# Wife had a 6 month "emotional affair" with a married man



## cam42

Hi I'm Cameron or you can call me Cam whatever you prefer. I'm 42 years old and have three kids two dogs and a faithful loyal wife, HA. Tried to make a joke I guess but on to the story, I'm actually really hurting. 

So basically my wife and I have been together since we were 20 and we got married 24. Our marriage has been pretty good so far, we barely argued had an active sex life and have great kids. Neither of us smoke, neither of us are alcoholics and both of us are physically fit/healthy. Our intimacy and sex life has dwindled for the last few years I attribute that to stress from our jobs, us getting older and marriage being more routine. Basically were both at fault for that part, our communication should have been better. Our bedroom certainly wasn't dead but the intimacy wasn't like when we were newlyweds. I blame our communication for that too. 

On to the story, so my wife 41 female, has been having an "emotional affair" with her co-worker who is also married. A week ago a mutual friend spotted my wife and this dude out on a date basically and texted me about it. The mutual friend is actually more of her friend and is also female, it was a fairly nice restaurant and it looked pretty weird to her to see my wife who is married out with this man. She also noted that they were holding hands, how ****ing cute. She told me and I confronted my wife when she got home (5 days ago). I asked for the full details of the affair but she cried and said it will just hurt me even more.

Basically she has been having an emotional/sexting affair with this co worker for 6 months. I would of never suspected her having an affair, but she was certainly texting her girlfriends a lot and laughing. She's apart of a group chat with her friends so I was naive as hell. I was devastated when she admitted it she also didn't admit it right away. She told me we felt more like roommates than lovers and this jackass just made her feel so special inside (probably literally) as well. Throughout her affair she wasn't cold or that distant to me, she was still very loving and affectionate towards me and we still had sex. You're telling me this ******* is wining and dining my wife and he's not getting any? Yeah right.

The wife was the most kindest, sweetest, loyal person who I thought adored me and I did her. All our friends think we have one of the best marriages out of all of them. Wife is swearing up and down nothing happened between them, she is what I read tickle truthing me. She didn't even admit to the sexting until I pushed for it. I'm incredibly angry with her and have been sleeping in separate beds, when I look at her I feel physically sick. I've been as cold as ice towards her and the kids have started to take notice. I also broke down and said how could you ****ing do this to me? I shouldn't have done this but I was in so much shock and still am, I cry in private now though. She also flipped out on me when I called her a cheating *****, I've never called her a ***** ***** **** **** ever. She said "See you don't give a **** about me anymore you ****ing ****". Coming from the cheating partner oh the irony.

I have read about 180s and trying to make it look like I don't care and that's what I've been doing so far. Does anyone have experience with this? She said she doesn't want a divorce but she's so confused and she does have strong feelings for the AP. I have alerted his wife by the way. She's saying she won't text him anymore and I think she needs to quit her job. Also I very doubt their affair was just emotional. She's also saying she doesn't want a divorce. I'm absolutely devastated and am trying hard to hide it, I've also been going hard at the gym. No one knows except her friend and me and other mans wife. 

Should I divorce? (she said she doesn't want one) Should I reconcile? Over the past 5 days she's seemed remorseful and not at the same time, if that makes sense? This is a woman who was so proud of our relationship and what we have built together, it's now all just destroyed. She told me she's sorry that she did this and she's sorry that I don't believe that it's not just emotional. I've lost my appetite and don't know what to do anymore, please help.

Also a friend of mine knows, I asked him for help on what I should do and he redirected me here and told me all about the 180 and not to make the same mistakes he made.


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## GusPolinski

Emotional affair + physical proximity to EAP = _physical_ affair

Sorry, but there's no way that they didn't bang.


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## MattMatt

Sorry you had to look for us, but so pleased you found us.

The good news? You and your wife can get through this.

*But!* She needs to be truly remorseful, she has to give you whatever details you want. (I never wanted any details of my wife's affair, but some betrayed spouses do.)

Couple's counselling might be of benefit to you, plus individual counselling, also. 

You need to be checked out for STDs. Yeah, sure, *of course* they only ever held hands, or she insisted on condoms, or he assured her he was clean and so on and so forth...

And one way to really show her how she has ruined your trust and faith in her, get DNA tests done on your children. This is to send her a message that she has blown up your marriage to such an extent that you can no longer trust anything she has ever said or done throughout your relationship. Well, she was able to pull the wool over your eyes during her affair, so...

A Voice Activated Recorder hidden in her car might be worth considering.

Please keep us updated on what is happening. Remember the vast majority of us here have been in your position, some in the position of your wife and some on both sides of the fence, so we know where you both are, now.


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## arbitrator

*6 months worth of dates and no banging?

Google the Sidney Sherman Bridge in Houston and I'll sell it to you for $10 if they didn't find themselves a nice secluded place away from you in which to let their drawers hit the floor at least once within a six months time span!

Think that it's high time to do "the 180" and to start lawyer shopping so that you can be immediately advised of both your custodial and property rights! 

And on your way over to the barristers office, be sure to drop by and visit your personal MD to insure that she hasn't exactly given you "something to remember her by!"

In addition, you might also notify the OM's wife as well as your wife's company's HR Department, as a lot of companies these days do not exactly subscribe to "drawer dropping fraternization" on or off of the clock, more especially with other company employees!*


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## jorgegene

Your wife doesn't seem fully remorseful yet.

she's still in denial and making excuses. 
That needs to change in a huge way before anything else.


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## frusdil

The first thing your wife needs to do is cut off ALL contact with the OM and quit her job - IMMEDIATELY.

If she won't do both of those things, there's nothing left to save OP. File.


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## sokillme

Read some of the threads I have started if you want the move on opinion. Whatever you do, don't be weak. It will get you nowhere. Your wife needs consequences, very much like a child. Really if she isn't going to do the work you are better off just calling it. You may not be happy but you won't for sure if she is going to blame her affair on you.

If it was me I would serve her. You can always change your mind. Also tell the guys wife. 

Also be aware if you do decided to stay you will always get the worst of the deal. It will always be unfair, you need to be able to live with that, if you can't move on now because the alternative is having it eat you up inside and make you miserable. 

Sorry dude.

And you don't date for 5 months and not have sex, she is lying. 

Tell his wife, serve your wife.


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## inging

It was a physical affair and an emotional one.Sorry dude.


She does not look remorseful for the affair because she isn't. She may have some regret but that is not the same thing


You do not have to make any decisions now about Divorce and I think you need to do some more digging before you think too hard about reconciling

I suspect she will ( if now already) get in contact with OM. You can no longer believe a word she says. She lies. She cheats. This is established . She will lie straight to your face. 

as a wise man said to me when i arrived 7 years ago with a similar scenario...


DIG


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## cam42

For my own sanity I know she was bull****ting me and I know she's been ****ing this guy. I don't want a divorce and I feel like a fool for that. This is my wife the mother of my kids, the woman who's been my best friend. I'm angry, so ****ing angry. I'm going to give her one more chance to come clean about the whole affair, I also know of a night in particular where I'm sure she met up with him somewhere. How am I going to get passed the fact that my wife was being physical with this *******? I need to be emotionally stronger here. I told the other man's wife. I feel so emotionally frustrated and sick **** I still love her and she said she still loves me. My wife had a ****ing boyfriend.


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## sokillme

cam42 said:


> For my own sanity I know she was bull****ting me and I know she's been ****ing this guy. I don't want a divorce and I feel like a fool for that. This is my wife the mother of my kids, the woman who's been my best friend. I'm angry, so ****ing angry. I'm going to give her one more chance to come clean about the whole affair, I also know of a night in particular where I'm sure she met up with him somewhere. How am I going to get passed the fact that my wife was being physical with this *******? I need to be emotionally stronger here. I told the other man's wife. I feel so emotionally frustrated and sick **** I still love her and she said she still loves me. My wife had a ****ing boyfriend.


Yes she did. Don't make any decisions now if you can't. Work on getting stronger. Just remember love is not enough. I still say file, you can always change your mind but your wife needs to be shocked out of her comfort zone. Right now she is in dream land. 

The truth is you have no idea right now how you will fell, 6 month, 2 year, 20 years from now. This is why it makes more sense to not even think about that. Try to use your logic not emotions to guide you.


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## Jasel

> Over the past 5 days she's seemed remorseful and not at the same time, if that makes sense?


Sounds like regret. That's not remorse.


Your wife is unlikely to admit to anything you can't prove or unless she winds up feeling actual remorse and wants to repair the damage she's caused by being honest. You're better off keeping up the 180 and having her served with divorce papers (don't tell her you're doing this). Maybe then she'll see how serious you are and she'll be motivated to save her marriage. 

And of course you still love your wife. It's not like people get cheated on and suddenly they fall out of love. But love alone isn't enough to sustain a marriage. Especially one damaged by infidelity and lies. Your wife is not showing remorse for what she did. Reconciliation shouldn't even be a consideration until she does.


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## sokillme

You also need to remember what kind of person your wife has become. She is not the same woman you thought she was. She is capable of lying to you for 6 month selfishly. Hurting you who supported her, her children's father, and even her children. All for selfish reasons. This is the person she is now. Do you really want to base you whole future on someone like that?

42 is still pretty young. You are a faithful man, you will be in demand.


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## cam42

Are wayward spouses like really in an alternate universe? I've been reading and trying to understand more about this hell. I can only imagine that the wife and the OM are sneaking around on their lunch break having their way with each other. She's just acting ****ing strange. Why couldn't she have just made it easier and asked for a divorced instead of doing this **** to me. She gave me a hug today and I should of declined it.


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## Bibi1031

cam42 said:


> For my own sanity I know she was bull****ting me and I know she's been ****ing this guy. I don't want a divorce and I feel like a fool for that. This is my wife the mother of my kids, the woman who's been my best friend. I'm angry, so ****ing angry. I'm going to give her one more chance to come clean about the whole affair, I also know of a night in particular where I'm sure she met up with him somewhere. How am I going to get passed the fact that my wife was being physical with this *******? I need to be emotionally stronger here. I told the other man's wife. I feel so emotionally frustrated and sick **** I still love her and she said she still loves me. *My wife had a ****ing boyfriend.*


Have her quit her job and write a no contact letter to her affair partner. Get into marriage counseling as soon as possible. She is confused my Arse! She thinks she is "in love" with this guy. There is no confusion about that. Place a VAR in her car or where she uses the phone in private. If she continues contact with the OM, expose her cheating arse. How old are your kids? If they are teens, you need to let them know what mommie did or she will turn this around on you. Exposure needs to be done if she is so damn confused. She betrayed you and her children in the worst way. You leave one relationship before entering another. She is what you insulted her with. She may not like it, but that is why exposure is a big consequence for a confused, remorseless cheater like herself.

She is way ahead of the game in the detachment part from you. Of course you don't want a divorce and you still love her. You are reeling from the pain and confusion her betrayal has caused. In time, like most of us, you will come to realize that you don't want anything to do with a woman that could set up nest elsewhere after so damn carelessly throwing away all those years of love and committment for a piece of A$$; a married one at that!

She is not the woman you married anymore. You may not be able to wrap your head around that this soon, but take your time and watch her closely. Make sure the affair is over and if it isn't EXPOSE. 

Read the standard evidence post to get more truth than the lies she is giving you. Even if you love her, don't let her get away with rugsweeping this affair or she will cheat again since there are no real consequences to her betrayal because you want to save the marriage. 

You can't save what YOU didn't break! She did that herself. If she was that miserable and bored with the relationship, she should of communicated that to YOU and not seek solace elsewhere. Sometimes we accept blame where we have none because if we broke it then we can fix it.

Wrong! It's all on her when she introduced a third party into a marriage that consists of only TWO!


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## eric1

Your first step is to get out of infidelity 

You need to expose the affair. DO NOT TELL HER THAT YOU ARE DOING THIS. Send her boyfriend's wife all of their texts. AGAIN DO NOT WARN HER - SHE WILL JUST WARN HER BOYFRIEND


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## Evinrude58

Your friend gave you good advice. 
I urge you not to talk to your wife at all yet. File for divorce. 
You can always cancel it, but your wife is calling YOU names? No, she's not remorseful.
She's regretting she got caught.

It was not just emotional, as you know.

The bad thing is this:
When a woman starts living another man, they lose their feelings for the one they married.
They RARELY come back. In your case, the way she is acting, there's even less of a chance.
I know this isn't what you want to hear. 
You want your old life, and old wife back. I can promise you that your wife doesn't exist anymore. She is not the same person she was, because regardless of what she says, she no longer loves you. She proved she doesn't.

You should 180 and move on in your mind. Only when you are both in equal footing can you even consider a new relationship.
If you try to fix this with you wanting it and her NOT wanting you, it is guaranteed failure. And continued pain for you.

File. If she ever has remorse, you'll know it. If she still loves you, you'll know it. I don't think she does.


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## sokillme

cam42 said:


> Are wayward spouses like really in an alternate universe? I've been reading and trying to understand more about this hell. I can only imagine that the wife and the OM are sneaking around on their lunch break having their way with each other. She's just acting ****ing strange. Why couldn't she have just made it easier and asked for a divorced instead of doing this **** to me. She gave me a hug today and I should of declined it.


Some people say that they are. I personally don't believe that, I think they make a calculated choice. Maybe she wasn't happy for a while and didn't tell you. When the proverbial 5hit hit the fan, she chose to abandon you in the worse way. She probably thought she would never get caught. I think she has always been like this and this is the first time you have caught her.

Personally I don't think people change much, I think there are people who can do this and people who can't. If you marry someone who can maybe you get lucky and they never get too tempted or have the right opportunity, or maybe you never find out. Or you marry someone maybe like you who would never conceive of doing something so despicable to someone you love. Life would be a lot easier if we all had signs to say what type of person we are. 

In the worst cases the cheating type of person looks for a person they can bully. They actually choose the person because they know they will bankroll their lifestyle. They are really just like the bully on the playground. They pick the easiest targets. I doesn't sound like that is you though. 

Thing is, again your wife is not who you thought. You may need to re-think your whole history. Morals just don't change in your 40's meaning they were probably always a part of her like this. She always had it in her in my opinion it just wasn't in her best interest to act on it yet. You really are just at the beginning at this, I get it, it's like a brand new sucky world. There is a lot more to this then you think.


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## cam42

Evinrude58 said:


> Your friend gave you good advice.
> I urge you not to talk to your wife at all yet. File for divorce.
> You can always cancel it, but your wife is calling YOU names? No, she's not remorseful.
> She's regretting she got caught.
> 
> It was not just emotional, as you know.
> 
> The bad thing is this:
> When a woman starts living another man, they lose their feelings for the one they married.
> They RARELY come back. In your case, the way she is acting, there's even less of a chance.
> I know this isn't what you want to hear.
> You want your old life, and old wife back. I can promise you that your wife doesn't exist anymore. She is not the same person she was, because regardless of what she says, she no longer loves you. She proved she doesn't.
> 
> You should 180 and move on in your mind. Only when you are both in equal footing can you even consider a new relationship.
> If you try to fix this with you wanting it and her NOT wanting you, it is guaranteed failure. And continued pain for you.
> 
> File. If she ever has remorse, you'll know it. If she still loves you, you'll know it. I don't think she does.


I have also read that often affair partners are downgrades physically and financially. That is the case for this one. I'm going to be filing I guess just to get the point across even though I don't want a divorce. I started hitting the gym hard over a year ago and she was receptive sexually to my hobby. This can't be happening to me. I don't want to be a part time dad I don't want to lose my wife I DON'T WANT A LIFE WITHOUT MY WIFE AND KIDS. I am panicking **** :frown2:


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## Bibi1031

cam42 said:


> I have also read that often affair partners are downgrades physically and financially. That is the case for this one. I'm going to be filing I guess just to get the point across even though I don't want a divorce. I started hitting the gym hard over a year ago and she was receptive sexually to my hobby. This can't be happening to me. I don't want to be a part time dad I don't want to lose my wife I DON'T WANT A LIFE WITHOUT MY WIFE AND KIDS. I am panicking **** :frown2:


Breath and exhale. visit your doctor to get some meds. You are going to need them or you will lose it. Your children are not babies, they probably need to know the truth as this affects them in a very deep way too. You don't want this, none of us that were betrayed wanted this and yet the majority of us had to move on kicking and screaming because our marriages were killed by the one person that promised to forsake all others for us. They lied! Most humans fall short of that promise. Your marriage just became a casualty of infidelity.

Your wife's affair is an exit affair. You may not be able to reconcile. She is too far gone from you emotionally. There may be no other way but the divorce route.

I'm so sorry this has happened in your life. You and your kids deserved better that the coward's way out cheaters use when they need to set up nest elsewhere instead of being honest with their long term partner that they want out. She is not worth it OP! I know it hurts, but it's the truth. She doesn't love and she has NO REMORSE. She simply got caught and is doing damage control.

The damage control is so that everyone else doesn't see her as the nasty. disloyal, cowardly, cheater that she is. 

Please expose and file!


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## Evinrude58

Don't panic. You are doing great, really.
For the love of God, don't cry, plead, or try to nice her back.

I know you think your world is a nightmare. I promise that it will get better. But it will seem like forever until it does.

Stay strong. She betrayed you.
She is likely STILL betraying you.

It doesn't matter what you want. You've got to deal with what you have. Deal with it the way you'd tell a friend to do.

I'm sorry.
But I've been through it and you can, too.


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## Tatsuhiko

Put a VAR (voice-activated recorder) in her car to see if the affair is still ongoing.

Order a DNA test kit for your children and make sure she sees it. Yes, the kids are yours, but having her witness the DNA-testing process is an effective way to make her to understand the depths of her depravity, and the full consequences of losing her husband's trust. 

Have the papers drawn up and have her served. The divorce can be stopped at any time if she shows real remorse. But the cold, hard slap of reality will help wake her up. 

Expose the affair to anyone who will make her feel shame. You should express to others that it was a PA, even if there's still a (very slim) possibility that it was only an EA. 

Continue to do the 180, decline all affection, sex, and hugs. Every time you hug her, you're telling her that you're alright and that she doesn't need to earn you back. 

As part of the 180, you should be going out some evenings without telling her where you're going or what you're doing. Even if you just walk around the mall and do nothing, it's valuable for her to see what life is like without you, and that you can easily do without her.


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## TDSC60

Do not panic. Everything you are feeling is normal. Disbelief, anger, pain.

Understand that your wife has done this. You may never get her to admit why she did it. But the simple truth is that she did it because she wanted to. 

You are now her plan B, Her security. Her babysitter. He is fun. He is exciting. He is romantic. He makes her feel young again.

Let her go. You can not reconcile even if you wanted to unless she give you the entire truth.


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## sokillme

cam42 said:


> I have also read that often affair partners are downgrades physically and financially. That is the case for this one. I'm going to be filing I guess just to get the point across even though I don't want a divorce. I started hitting the gym hard over a year ago and she was receptive sexually to my hobby. This can't be happening to me. I don't want to be a part time dad I don't want to lose my wife I DON'T WANT A LIFE WITHOUT MY WIFE AND KIDS. I am panicking **** :frown2:


You are in the fight of your life right now. Sadly it IS happening to you, and it happens to many, many people unfortunately. They all survive, but some better then others. A lot has to do with how much you are willing to allow someone to take advantage of you and for how long. The ones who do best get strong fast. This at least gives them some control over their lives. Control that is suddenly missing. This gives it back to you. You can not control your wife, only yourself. Right now you are still in husband mode, but she fired you. Stop trying to be. You need to be in ME mode. Don't let her continue to take advantage of you. Don't let fear take away your agency. This is part of why you are in so much pain. You feel powerless, but you are not. Your happiness is not dependent on her. Only on you. Concentrate on your mission, which is to get out of this situation and be happy again. With or without your wife. 

You need to be strong, the stronger you are the better things will go for you. I know it sucks, but you need to do it fast! I also know it feels like your life is over, but it is not. This is just one of the most painful times you will have in it. 

It's the beginning of emotional boot camp. See it like that, every day gets you one day stronger. If you can get through this you can get through anything. You are getting used to your new reality, but you don't have to stay in that reality. There is always better out there. Start to fight to get that better. 

Right now take it one day at a time, see your wife for who she is, not who you thought she was. Harden you heart for now, and accept nothing less then respect. Give her what she deserves which right now is not much. Some say spy and try to police her but I don't think that helps. What helps is gaining control over what you can control yourself. Let her have her man if she wants him. But don't let her have you too. Don't tell her, have them file her at work. Leave you kid at her mom's and tell her mom what she did, let her Mom know that you are going away for a short time but will be back. Then go on a 2 week vacation and don't talk to her. Let her suffer for a while. 

Buck up man. You will survive this, but you will be in a much better place if you work from strength not weakness. Look forward and start moving, one step at a time. And believe, YOU WILL BE HAPPY AGAIN. Anyone who goes through this can tell you that is so.


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## cam42

She's offering to explain all the details, but I don't want to do it tonight because I actually want to get some sleep. I feel like ****ing **** what did this guy have that I didn't. Why didn't she just leave my ass and save me all of this. She asked me to come to bed with her sounded like an invitation to sex but I just declined. I'm so angry.


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## Evinrude58

Dont let her use sex to confuse you and weaken you.
Don't let her love-bomb you. 

Chill for a few days like you're doing. And file.

Let her figure out how to fix this. After all, she screwed it up.....


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## jsmart

This is most likely a sexual PA. When they're getting bold enough to be in a restaurant holding hands, you know they've been sexual. The most common thing is to go to a secluded section of a nearby park for sex or my likely a BJ several times a week.

You should get yourself tested as a precaution. They always lie about using protection. Not to mention you know what BJs in a car means.

If you want to salvage this, she must quit that job, send a NC letter, give you a timeline of the affair, and truthfully tell you what was done as well as give you access to all devices and passwords. 

You have to warn her that you won't accept anymore lies. Trickle truth makes it hard to R. You don't want to try to R then found out she was proclaiming her undying love for him and wanting to leave you or that she did things with him that you were turned down on. Very common.


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## sokillme

cam42 said:


> She's offering to explain all the details, but I don't want to do it tonight because I actually want to get some sleep. I feel like ****ing **** what did this guy have that I didn't. Why didn't she just leave my ass and save me all of this. She asked me to come to bed with her sounded like an invitation to sex but I just declined. I'm so angry.


What could explain it. The only thing this guy had was the idea that your wife was the type that would do this. That is what you didn't have. If it wasn't this guy it would be someone else. You are going through the typical stuff that everyone who goes through this does. Read the stories they are all the same. Don't let her rug sweep this. What your wife did to you is evil, and you have a right to be hurt. Think long and hard about how you want the rest of your life to go. Moving forward with this person. Once you get over the shock an really understand what she did to you, you will have lost the reverence you once had for her. This may make it easier to detach. 

The best way I have heard it described is that an imposter came and killed your wife and is now living in her body. It's a real life invasion of the body snatchers. Except it's really not the case this is who she always was, you just didn't know it. 

Hold on to the anger for a little while. Use it, your gonna need it. I agree with the other poster. DNA test you kids, let her see you do it. They are your kids but it will be a blow to her. Send her the papers at work unannounced. Be gone when she gets home for a good week. Don't answer your phone. Let her suffer for a little while.

It's also way way too early to decide how you want to proceed. Just because you want to save it now doesn't mean when you aren't in shock you still will. You may decide that you can't live with it or it is too much of a raw deal. And it is a raw deal. Right not worry about taking control. Your wife has effectively put you in the parent role, time for some tough love.


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## drifting on

Cam42

The most difficult affair to me is the workplace affair. My wife had a workplace affair also, and what I'm about to tell you is what I SHOULD have done.

1) say nothing to your wife, she isn't yours now anyway.
2) take a day off work.
3) go to her work at lunch.
4) walk in with a dozen roses.
5) go to your wife's desk surprising her.
6) hand her the flowers, give her a hug, then whisper in her ear, take me to lover boys desk. 
7) if she refuses, tell her you will email everyone in that company the texts between her and lover boy. 
8) give her the business card of your lawyer. 
9) if she refuses to take you to lover boy, have her take you to the HR department, inform them of the affair.

Had I done just three of these steps I would have been better off. Don't allow your wife time to decide, although you need to allow time for her to grieve her relationship that ended. I know that's hard to believe, but it's true. Either she quits or he quits, it's the only way. If she hesitates, you must know her feelings are more for him then you. This will prompt you to divorce, but you can save your marriage if you prefer. Just because you file doesn't mean you have to take it all the way through. 

You can pm me if you need any other help. But your first plan of action is destroying this affair.


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## Satya

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



cam42 said:


> This is my wife the mother of my kids, the woman who's been my best friend.


...and she's a _____ (fill in the not so nice word). 

And now you know that people are shades of grey, not black and white. You pedestalized her and now you're watching the marble crumble and you're upset it was cracked to begin with.

We are all cracked. Some of us have the resiliency and will to either hold it together or come out from the marble completely as our "take it or leave it" selves. 

You've learned your wife isn't marriage material. That's who she is. What you do about it can only be your decision.


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## Wolfman1968

cam42 said:


> She's offering to explain all the details, but I don't want to do it tonight because I actually want to get some sleep. I feel like ****ing **** what did this guy have that I didn't. Why didn't she just leave my ass and save me all of this. She asked me to come to bed with her sounded like an invitation to sex but I just declined. I'm so angry.



She needs to leave the marital bed, not you.

And since she hasn't given you the whole story to date, she's not being honest. That means no full remorse. She's trying to get away with an incomplete divulging of the truth...incomplete measures are not something done by someone truly sorry.

She's still protecting either the Affair Partner, herself, or both. If she were truly sorry, she would come clean completely and let the chips fall where they may. Indeed, a truly sorry person would feel that they DESERVE the worst, not try to mitigate the fall-out of her actions.

I also hope you got ALL her passwords and have looked at ALL her accounts (phone, email, text, etc.). 

I also hope you have DNA'ed the kids and let her know it. Even if you have no doubt about paternity, do it anyway, beause it is a symbol of the trust she has lost. 

And demand a polygraph. 

I also hope you continue with divorce proceedings. you can always call it off later, or even reconcile AFTER the divorce. But you need to get the ball rolling.


----------



## arbitrator

jsmart said:


> This is most likely a sexual PA. When they're getting bold enough to be in a restaurant holding hands, you know they've been sexual. *The most common thing is to go to a secluded section of a nearby park for sex* or most likely a BJ several times a week.
> 
> You should get yourself tested as a precaution. They always lie about using protection. Not to mention you know what BJs in a car means.
> 
> If you want to salvage this, she must quit that job, send a NC letter, give you a timeline of the affair, and truthfully tell you what was done as well as give you access to all devices and passwords.
> 
> You have to warn her that you won't accept anymore lies. Trickle truth makes it hard to R. You don't want to try to R then found out she was proclaiming her undying love for him and wanting to leave you or that she did things with him that you were turned down on. Very common.


*Local or area motels aren't bad venues either!*


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
Allow me to give you some insight into your wife's thinking or, better stated, lack thereof. You assume that because a person matures physically that they automatically mature mentally. This is sadly not the case. Physical maturation is biologically controlled however cognitive maturity is not. Although a person can be physically mature they do not look like Arnold Schwarzenegger, that requires stimulation. As the muscles are stressed they respond by increasing in mass. Cognitive maturity is very similar.

The brain develops biologically but it does not become strong without stimulation. I am sure you have heard the phrase "use it or lose it" but in this instance it is more accurately stated "use it or miss it". The neural network of synaptic connections is laid down as we mature psychologically by experiencing situations that force us to use our brains. Absent this stimulus, the brain simply has no reason to increase the synaptic network just as the muscles have no reason to increase mass without stress.

So then, understanding this, you must now be, as another poster has said, thrust into the role of parent/guardian to her. She cannot make decisions on her own therefore you must make them for her. If you do not she will continue to run amuck taking you and the family along for the ride. Some here will say that she made a calculated choice and it is true that she chose to do what she did but it was by no means calculated because she made the choice with the mind of a child.

Think of this; if a child wants a candy bar do they consider the effects of the sugar on their teeth? Do they "calculate" the rise in blood sugar and ensuing affect on their pancreas? Do they calculate how far into the acidic side of the ph scale it will push their body's balance? The answer is simply no, they haven't the cognitive ability to "calculate" all of that information. They can only make decisions based on what their limited intellect can "calculate" and that is "it tastes and feels good" to eat it. This is your W.

Let me introduce you to two phrases that you will hear repeatedly if you try to R with your W. One phrase is "I didn't think of that" and the other is "I don't know". When asked how she could possibly nuke your family as she has done she will say "I don't know". When pressed further and asked what she believed the effect would be on you and her children she will respond "I didn't think of that". Remember these phrases and the number of times you will hear them and you will see that what I am telling you is true.

So then it now falls to you to take charge. You do not ask her what she wants you tell her how it is going to be. If she balks at any of it then it is immediate D. Your only "power" in this situation is to take control and be her mind since hers is ill prepared to be an adult. Now here is the tough decision for you, do you want to live this way for the rest of your marriage? Unfortunately this condition is permanent. Science now tells us that the brain can develop into our mid twenties however, beyond that, neural growth is not possible. It is possible that, in rare occasions, the brain can utilize other neural pathways to modify behavior but this is extremely rare, nearing the point of impossible and it usually requires a stimulus of such magnitude so as to shock the mind into change.

This is the impetus behind filing and serving her at work. The bigger the shock the better chance it has of jolting her mind to change but again, that is only if her mind is even capable of utilizing those other synaptic connections and that is seldom the case. I regret having to tell you this but it may empower you somewhat to know what you are up against. Be a parent/guardian to her for the remainder of the marriage or find a mature woman to spend your life with. Also keep in mind that this is all contingent on whether or not the thought of D losing her family carries the significance in her mind to force her to modify her behavior. And make no mistake that, short of the epiphany explained above which is rare indeed, all she can do is modify, not change.

If the thought of losing her family, as she has known it, is not sufficient motivation for her to modify behavior then she will not comply and you will have no choice but to live with her "frolics" or D and move on. Ours is not an easy path, I wish you good fortune as you traverse yours.


----------



## Mr.StrongMan

@cam42 I am really sorry man. The fact that they were holding hands at dinner is cheating... I would not expect your wife to admit to the truth at this point. Is there hope? Should you divorce? I am not the person to answer these questions. I wish you the best and I am sorry she has done this to you.


----------



## inging

The general rules with affairs is that they are three times longer than admitted to.

She has formed a close bond with this guy. Openly having Dinner holding hands is pretty close. In many ways an affair is much like any relationship when it starts. Spending way too much time together. laughing, fcking, making plans for the future. She had a lovely time.
She chose to do it and she chose to continue it even knowing how much it would hurt you if you found out.

Now that you have found out she wants you to stop hurting hence the hug . She wants it to go back to how it was but you are being mean and saying no. You are her Husband and Father of her children. Her other man is her lover. I know this is hard to hear but that is how it works. 

I do not believe you are at the point where you can even begin to reconcile. The wound is deep and fresh. Your wife willingly and enthusiastically giving her self to another man is hard to stomach. 

There may be a small chance that some residual loyalty has stopped her from actually fcking him. If you want to believe that fine but the advice is the same. If she wants to come back to you she needs to quit her job. She needs to hand over her phone. Open up her emails and she needs to WANT to do this because it is a chance to save her marriage. The consequences of breaking two families for an affair are brutal and she will live with the title "homewrecker" for the rest of her life. It will not go as planned for her.. 

I know you feel as though your heart has been ripped out and stomped on ( repeatedly) and it takes alot of effort and alot of work to recover either as a couple or on your own. Whatever happens now. Your old life is dead and you have to rebuild. It takes years so go easy on yourself. If you are having anxiety or panic attacks and not sleeping go to the Doctor and get some meds to help you think clearly. It will also help enormously.

Try and eat some real food, go for a walk and stay off the booze.


----------



## straightshooter

Cam,

You have already gotten some thoughts and advice, so I believe you can take some advice without the sugar coating at this point. Married women do not go out in public holding hands romantically with other men for six months 9 probably more when it all started) and have no sex involved. Yes, there is always the chance it has not happened but you would do yourself a favor if whatever decisions you make you assume that it has happened. 
So lets start with the obvious. No matter what your thoughts are, just about all of the literature on infidelity will tell you that the first step is for NO CONTACT . That does not mean that she tells you she will keep it professional yet still be swooning around him daily for ten hours a day while your gut wonders what is going on.. That is what makes workplace affairs tghe most difficult to catch ( you got lucky) and STOP without some steps that some would call nuclear.

Right now, you are basically clueless as to the extent of this, and she is not trustworthy to tell you the truth ( and wanting to have sex with you means nothing). My recommendations to you before you make any firm decisions are to
(1) stop telling her you love her and you can work through this since you have no clue what you are really working through. That is called the pick me game and it rarely works out well for the betrayed of either sex.
(2) if you decide to stay married she needs to quit that job. If you decide to divorce her she needs to stay in that job until the divorce is final so I would resist blowing it up yet at work.
(3) she needs to turn over every password of every elertronic device she has. Her right to privacy went out the window with her behavior. Yes, as some will tell you, she can easily go "underground. But her willingness to do it is what is the most important thing. The literature will also tell you that women who resist the requirements for reconciliation or hesitate are much more likely to resume the affair or not stop it at all. 
(4) you need a VAR in her car. Yes, an attorney might tell you it is not legal in your state, but no decent lawyer is going to prosecute that for a cheating spouse, and thousands of folks on these forums have found out the truth quickly in days when they use this tool.
(5) you need to see an attorney and tell your wife you are doing that. Some will disagree with that but that is gthe one step that will immediately start to make her believe there are going to be some consequences that are not pleasant for her. It does NOT mean you are getting divorced but you need to be prepared in case what you uncover, and there is a lot more, becomes a deal breaker.
(6) if this OM is married, you tell his wife or partner WITHOUT telling you wife anything about your intentions. 

And lastly, in a workplace affair, with the difficulties on stopping it, you need to tell her you are going to at some point unnanounced in the future demand that she take a polygraph test. Her reaction to that will tell you volumes as to how deep this goes. Those that have nothing to hide hide nothing. 

I believe one of her girlfriends told you. That means others probably know what is going on, and you need to know if any of her friends are covering for her or encouraging her. The VAR will also tell you that very quickly.

Getting out of denial is the first and most important step. Stay away from MC of any kind right now . You MUST GET THE TRUTH before any steps are taken or you are wasting your time. And same goes for pursuing the "why". If she has been banging him three times a week for six months do you really give a **** why???? I hope the answer to that one is no.

Men who react quickly and decisively have better outcomes. You have to make a decision as to whether or not getting out of infidelity is your priority or staying married at all costs is. You may not be able to do both, but it is too early to tell yet. 

Cam, DO NOT accept any excuses and the quickest way to knock them off the fence is to play hardball. When they actually believe there is going to be absolutely no cake eating and no stringing you along, you will be amazed at howe clearly their minds straighten out, or they leave. Both are better outcomes than staying in limbo for months or years.

I suggest you stay on this forum regardless of whether or not you like what you hear. Just about all the folks have been there and done that, some successfully and some not too successfully.


----------



## nursejackie

I was in a workplace affair 25 years ago. I loved my husband, we had a great sex life, he was/is very handsome and had a great body. We had a ton of fun together and had started a family. The only thing at that point that was missing was real intimate conversation. We were busy, it wasnt his thing, and I needed it desperately. I did tell him this often but it came off as whining or neediness I think. What I SHOULD have done was get him to MC where we could have figured out how to meet each others needs properly and learn to communicate and love in a mature fashion.

What happened instead was a coworker saw a vulnerability in me and worked at it. He figured out that need for conversation and provided it- as a friend, then as a good friend. Soon he became the person I saved my thoughts and stories for. He seemed to "get" me so perfectly....We socialized in groups together- still innocent nothing going on here just friends...eventually we acknowledge we cared for each other but would never cross any boundaries- I loved my husband. Then we were out as a group, crossed the line, I vowed never to cross it again but the fog by then is pretty thick. The dopamine is roaring through you and you feel like an addict that cant do without. Because I was immature and selfish and lazy and feel good driven I continued. 

I never thought of what it could do to my family or my husband. Not once-except somewhere in the back of my head i knew not to go PIV or oral as I thought that might be a deal breaker for him if he found out. I never wanted to leave my H. I wanted my cake and to eat it too. I wanted - like a selfish child-everything I wanted.

I broke the A up after about 6 mos because I couldnt take the psychological dysfunct of it all. My actions were not on parallell with my values, my love for my husband, or the view I had of myself and my marriage. It was the hardest thing I ever had to do. It brought me to my knees to pray for the strength to do it. I did it. I went to confession where I was told to say some hail mary's and be a good wife, I went to IC where I was told to keep it to myself as it would serve no purpose except to hurt H. I didnt tell. I lived with that secret and it prevented me from having a full loving relationship with H. After coming on TAM for other reasons - I suspected H of having an EA with a coworker- I read all the threads and realized the true depth of what I had done to him and how wrong and selfish it was to keep that knowledge from him. I had never truly thought about how it would make him feel knowing what i had done but I realized I owed it to him so I disclosed.

His feelings and his pain were identical to yours even 25 years later. It was as if I'd shoved a knife in his heart and kept twisting it all through the day every day. A little less and less as time has gone by. I promised I would tell him whatever details he wanted to know and I would be honest no matter how much it shamed me -we both felt physically sick -I told him I would do whatever it took to help him feel safe within the marriage- take a poly, give him access to my phone, etc..I told him very honestly that I never loved this guy- I loved the way he made me feel (seen and heard) at a time when I was feeling invisible within the marriage. I knew I would never allow myself to REPEAT my infidelity. I NEVER did before or after that guy. It was situational- I realized what I wanted was for my H to give me what I was getting from OM. I never wanted anyone else I only wanted MORE from my H. I also realized that I was capable of doing what I did so put safeguards in place so it would never happen again. MC, IC, no OS friendships...

In the beginning H felt like you- he often felt like throwing up and sometimes physically did. He cried away from me, yelled at me and called me names and swore. He had never done that before. He wanted to leave me but didnt want to. H often tells me that he is still hurting (a year and a half later)and trying to deal with the pain I caused. We have been going to MC, IC, a weekend marriage retreat, I went to an IC relationship retreat on my own, we have read books, church based marital therapy courses....(this was also in an effort to deal with his recent EA) 

It is a rollercoaster of emotions. Not an easy road. We BOTH know we love each other still and want to be together. What we didnt know and are still figuring out is how to get there in a healthy way. We want a better marriage, a more intimate marriage, a happier marriage where WE learn to meet each others needs and find out what they are. 

We will make it because we both want to. We love each other above all else. My point ....under the right circumstances it can work out. There are successful reconciliations. Ours is still a work in progress...

If my H had discovered my A 25 years ago while I was still in the fog what should he have done?

1.Say from a position of strength-I am not interested in sharing my wife. He can have you. I'm filing for a separation.

2.Let me know that he was going to DNA the kids, get tested for STD's to show just how much I had destroyed his trust-and how disgusted he was with me

3.Serve me with separation papers.

4.Go on a vacation and dont tell me where or with whom.

5.or/and as part of the 180 make sure there is a possibility I could suspect he was seeing someone else.

This would have shocked me out of my fog, let me see exactly the impact my actions and selfishness have had and experience the consequences for them, allow me to feel what its like to not have your cake, there is no better way to understand the devastation an A has than to experience what it feels like to even suspect your spouse is having one. I know this from experience.

Hindsight is 20/20 and of course I dont really know what would have happened if he'd done that but I suspect it would have forced a come to jesus moment....(to borrow @arbitrators words) Your wife will either be devastated and feel like she has lost her world prompting proper remorse (I think likely) or she could see this as her exit affair and not fight you on it and continue with the guy (it will never work out-he is only providing something your not- you have been providing all the rest)

Sorry so long, very sorry if I triggered anyone, I was trying to let you see things from another side- there is still hope, there are things you can do (also get yourself in IC asap) This experience is similar to having PTSD- you will need support


----------



## cam42

Maybe everyone knew my wife was ****ing this dude except me and now I look like a joke. I've never felt this much humiliation in my life. I need her to show me the texts.


----------



## Lostinthought61

does the OM wife know if not time to spread the cheer...this has to be done and I would to your wife that you both drive to his house together so she does not give him advance warning...


----------



## sokillme

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> Allow me to give you some insight into your wife's thinking or, better stated, lack thereof. You assume that because a person matures physically that they automatically mature mentally. This is sadly not the case. Physical maturation is biologically controlled however cognitive maturity is not. Although a person can be physically mature they do not look like Arnold Schwarzenegger, that requires stimulation. As the muscles are stressed they respond by increasing in mass. Cognitive maturity is very similar.
> 
> The brain develops biologically but it does not become strong without stimulation. I am sure you have heard the phrase "use it or lose it" but in this instance it is more accurately stated "use it or miss it". The neural network of synaptic connections is laid down as we mature psychologically by experiencing situations that force us to use our brains. Absent this stimulus, the brain simply has no reason to increase the synaptic network just as the muscles have no reason to increase mass without stress.
> 
> So then, understanding this, you must now be, as another poster has said, thrust into the role of parent/guardian to her. She cannot make decisions on her own therefore you must make them for her. If you do not she will continue to run amuck taking you and the family along for the ride. Some here will say that she made a calculated choice and it is true that she chose to do what she did but it was by no means calculated because she made the choice with the mind of a child.
> 
> Think of this; if a child wants a candy bar do they consider the effects of the sugar on their teeth? Do they "calculate" the rise in blood sugar and ensuing affect on their pancreas? Do they calculate how far into the acidic side of the ph scale it will push their body's balance? The answer is simply no, they haven't the cognitive ability to "calculate" all of that information. They can only make decisions based on what their limited intellect can "calculate" and that is "it tastes and feels good" to eat it. This is your W.
> 
> Let me introduce you to two phrases that you will hear repeatedly if you try to R with your W. One phrase is "I didn't think of that" and the other is "I don't know". When asked how she could possibly nuke your family as she has done she will say "I don't know". When pressed further and asked what she believed the effect would be on you and her children she will respond "I didn't think of that". Remember these phrases and the number of times you will hear them and you will see that what I am telling you is true.
> 
> So then it now falls to you to take charge. You do not ask her what she wants you tell her how it is going to be. If she balks at any of it then it is immediate D. Your only "power" in this situation is to take control and be her mind since hers is ill prepared to be an adult. Now here is the tough decision for you, do you want to live this way for the rest of your marriage? Unfortunately this condition is permanent. Science now tells us that the brain can develop into our mid twenties however, beyond that, neural growth is not possible. It is possible that, in rare occasions, the brain can utilize other neural pathways to modify behavior but this is extremely rare, nearing the point of impossible and it usually requires a stimulus of such magnitude so as to shock the mind into change.
> 
> This is the impetus behind filing and serving her at work. The bigger the shock the better chance it has of jolting her mind to change but again, that is only if her mind is even capable of utilizing those other synaptic connections and that is seldom the case. I regret having to tell you this but it may empower you somewhat to know what you are up against. Be a parent/guardian to her for the remainder of the marriage or find a mature woman to spend your life with. Also keep in mind that this is all contingent on whether or not the thought of D losing her family carries the significance in her mind to force her to modify her behavior. And make no mistake that, short of the epiphany explained above which is rare indeed, all she can do is modify, not change.
> 
> If the thought of losing her family, as she has known it, is not sufficient motivation for her to modify behavior then she will not comply and you will have no choice but to live with her "frolics" or D and move on. Ours is not an easy path, I wish you good fortune as you traverse yours.


I agree with some of this but she knew. She wouldn't be hiding it if she didn't know it was wrong she already said she didn't want to tell him because it would hurt him. Ignorance is not the case here, and should not be used as an excuse. Similar to when we here people say "I just wasn't thinking about my spouse" when they were having and affair, yeah except for all the sneaking and lying that had to do to them. You have to be thinking of someone when you are concocting a lie to trick them. She is not like a kid who touches the fire without knowing it is going to burn them for the first time. This gives her too much cover that she doesn't deserve. Personally I think they know they are just willing to risk it. Which makes it malice and much worse. 

Also though this strategy may work, OP remember this will be your life now. Controlling another adult human being like they are a child. If it comes to that there are plenty of adult women who are more then capable of "thinking of that". Who want's to be married to someone so stupid. Really.


----------



## sokillme

nursejackie said:


> I was in a workplace affair 25 years ago. I loved my husband, we had a great sex life, he was/is very handsome and had a great body. We had a ton of fun together and had started a family. The only thing at that point that was missing was real intimate conversation. We were busy, it wasnt his thing, and I needed it desperately. I did tell him this often but it came off as whining or neediness I think. What I SHOULD have done was get him to MC where we could have figured out how to meet each others needs properly and learn to communicate and love in a mature fashion.
> 
> What happened instead was a coworker saw a vulnerability in me and worked at it. He figured out that need for conversation and provided it- as a friend, then as a good friend. Soon he became the person I saved my thoughts and stories for. He seemed to "get" me so perfectly....We socialized in groups together- still innocent nothing going on here just friends...eventually we acknowledge we cared for each other but would never cross any boundaries- I loved my husband. Then we were out as a group, crossed the line, I vowed never to cross it again but the fog by then is pretty thick. The dopamine is roaring through you and you feel like an addict that cant do without. Because I was immature and selfish and lazy and feel good driven I continued.
> 
> I never thought of what it could do to my family or my husband. Not once-except somewhere in the back of my head i knew not to go PIV or oral as I thought that might be a deal breaker for him if he found out. I never wanted to leave my H. I wanted my cake and to eat it too. I wanted - like a selfish child-everything I wanted.
> 
> I broke the A up after about 6 mos because I couldnt take the psychological dysfunct of it all. My actions were not on parallell with my values, my love for my husband, or the view I had of myself and my marriage. It was the hardest thing I ever had to do. It brought me to my knees to pray for the strength to do it. I did it. I went to confession where I was told to say some hail mary's and be a good wife, I went to IC where I was told to keep it to myself as it would serve no purpose except to hurt H. I didnt tell. I lived with that secret and it prevented me from having a full loving relationship with H. After coming on TAM for other reasons - I suspected H of having an EA with a coworker- I read all the threads and realized the true depth of what I had done to him and how wrong and selfish it was to keep that knowledge from him. I had never truly thought about how it would make him feel knowing what i had done but I realized I owed it to him so I disclosed.
> 
> His feelings and his pain were identical to yours even 25 years later. It was as if I'd shoved a knife in his heart and kept twisting it all through the day every day. A little less and less as time has gone by. I promised I would tell him whatever details he wanted to know and I would be honest no matter how much it shamed me -we both felt physically sick -I told him I would do whatever it took to help him feel safe within the marriage- take a poly, give him access to my phone, etc..I told him very honestly that I never loved this guy- I loved the way he made me feel (seen and heard) at a time when I was feeling invisible within the marriage. I knew I would never allow myself to REPEAT my infidelity. I NEVER did before or after that guy. It was situational- I realized what I wanted was for my H to give me what I was getting from OM. I never wanted anyone else I only wanted MORE from my H. I also realized that I was capable of doing what I did so put safeguards in place so it would never happen again. MC, IC, no OS friendships...
> 
> In the beginning H felt like you- he often felt like throwing up and sometimes physically did. He cried away from me, yelled at me and called me names and swore. He had never done that before. He wanted to leave me but didnt want to. H often tells me that he is still hurting (a year and a half later)and trying to deal with the pain I caused. We have been going to MC, IC, a weekend marriage retreat, I went to an IC relationship retreat on my own, we have read books, church based marital therapy courses....(this was also in an effort to deal with his recent EA)
> 
> It is a rollercoaster of emotions. Not an easy road. We BOTH know we love each other still and want to be together. What we didnt know and are still figuring out is how to get there in a healthy way. We want a better marriage, a more intimate marriage, a happier marriage where WE learn to meet each others needs and find out what they are.
> 
> We will make it because we both want to. We love each other above all else. My point ....under the right circumstances it can work out. There are successful reconciliations. Ours is still a work in progress...
> 
> If my H had discovered my A 25 years ago while I was still in the fog what should he have done?
> 
> 1.Say from a position of strength-I am not interested in sharing my wife. He can have you. I'm filing for a separation.
> 
> 2.Let me know that he was going to DNA the kids, get tested for STD's to show just how much I had destroyed his trust-and how disgusted he was with me
> 
> 3.Serve me with separation papers.
> 
> 4.Go on a vacation and dont tell me where or with whom.
> 
> 5.or/and as part of the 180 make sure there is a possibility I could suspect he was seeing someone else.
> 
> This would have shocked me out of my fog, let me see exactly the impact my actions and selfishness have had and experience the consequences for them, allow me to feel what its like to not have your cake, there is no better way to understand the devastation an A has than to experience what it feels like to even suspect your spouse is having one. I know this from experience.
> 
> Hindsight is 20/20 and of course I dont really know what would have happened if he'd done that but I suspect it would have forced a come to jesus moment....(to borrow @arbitrators words) Your wife will either be devastated and feel like she has lost her world prompting proper remorse (I think likely) or she could see this as her exit affair and not fight you on it and continue with the guy (it will never work out-he is only providing something your not- you have been providing all the rest)
> 
> Sorry so long, very sorry if I triggered anyone, I was trying to let you see things from another side- there is still hope, there are things you can do (also get yourself in IC asap) This experience is similar to having PTSD- you will need support


This is an important post, it shows you what your wife is thinking, and what you can expect now for the rest of your marriage if you choose to continue it. Understand you will never go back to what it once was. There are 3 people in your marriage now and always, you, your wife, and the man she choose to betray you with.


----------



## nursejackie

cam42 said:


> Maybe everyone knew my wife was ****ing this dude except me and now I look like a joke. I've never felt this much humiliation in my life. I need her to show me the texts.


Also my H's fear- that he had become some joke at that time. Never. Never talked about it with anyone at work- (10 years later my parents and a childhood friend) Never said a bad word about him to OM. In fact I spoke highly of him and OM said I made H sound like he was some kind of "Jesus". Again obviously not everyones experience but it is possible.

Take her phone and demand to see the texts if that is what you really need. It would give her some humiliating moments that she deserves


----------



## sokillme

cam42 said:


> Maybe everyone knew my wife was ****ing this dude except me and now I look like a joke. I've never felt this much humiliation in my life. I need her to show me the texts.


No one thinks you are a joke. All of us were shocked and blindsided. You did the honorable thing, you did what every woman want is her husband. You saw the best in her, put her on a pedestal and defended her. Again this makes you a very valuable spouse. Remember that if you choose to go on. So many woman out there want a man like you. 

You are not a joke, she is. You are not her plan B, she is not yours. You are not a cheater, betrayer, emotional vampire. She is. And the best she can say about herself is that she was too stupid to really understand the damage it would cause, not even you, but her children. That's the best you an say.

Finally I suspect that the girlfriend who told you just made up that story and she has been seething about this for a very long time, she is probably like a lot of us who find cheating monstrous. It probably got tired of hearing about it from her and it got too much for her so she just made up a story to tell you. If I were you I would go to her and get the real story. 

I'm sorry to tell you this but your wife is probably not the "kindest, sweetest, loyal person who I thought adored me" with her friends. I suspect she did what a lot of these "emotional vampires" do and hide her true nature from you. Her friends probably know it. I would let all her friends, and especially their husbands know what is going on. (Birds of a feather) Also tell her family. Shine a light on the darkness.


----------



## ABHale

This woman is saying she loves you right. 

She basically said she thought of you as a room mate. So she is no longer in love with you. She was responsive to his advances because if this. She checked out long ago and just didn't let you know. 

Going to try and get another poster that has gone through this samething to give you some advice, except his wife still denies anything was going on. He was support to get the OM' info a couple days ago. 

Remember and keep telling yourself, she is not in love with you if she is able to do what she did. Confront her with this fact, see how she defends it. This was not some drunken ONS, she has a relationship with him..


----------



## jsmart

nursejackie said:


> I was in a workplace affair 25 years ago. I loved my husband, we had a great sex life, he was/is very handsome and had a great body. We had a ton of fun together and had started a family. The only thing at that point that was missing was real intimate conversation. We were busy, it wasnt his thing, and I needed it desperately. I did tell him this often but it came off as whining or neediness I think. What I SHOULD have done was get him to MC where we could have figured out how to meet each others needs properly and learn to communicate and love in a mature fashion.
> 
> What happened instead was a coworker saw a vulnerability in me and worked at it. He figured out that need for conversation and provided it- as a friend, then as a good friend. Soon he became the person I saved my thoughts and stories for. He seemed to "get" me so perfectly....We socialized in groups together- still innocent nothing going on here just friends...eventually we acknowledge we cared for each other but would never cross any boundaries- I loved my husband. Then we were out as a group, crossed the line, I vowed never to cross it again but the fog by then is pretty thick. The dopamine is roaring through you and you feel like an addict that cant do without. Because I was immature and selfish and lazy and feel good driven I continued.
> 
> I never thought of what it could do to my family or my husband. Not once-except somewhere in the back of my head i knew not to go PIV or oral as I thought that might be a deal breaker for him if he found out. I never wanted to leave my H. I wanted my cake and to eat it too. I wanted - like a selfish child-everything I wanted.
> 
> I broke the A up after about 6 mos because I couldnt take the psychological dysfunct of it all. My actions were not on parallell with my values, my love for my husband, or the view I had of myself and my marriage. It was the hardest thing I ever had to do. It brought me to my knees to pray for the strength to do it. I did it. I went to confession where I was told to say some hail mary's and be a good wife, I went to IC where I was told to keep it to myself as it would serve no purpose except to hurt H. I didnt tell. I lived with that secret and it prevented me from having a full loving relationship with H. After coming on TAM for other reasons - I suspected H of having an EA with a coworker- I read all the threads and realized the true depth of what I had done to him and how wrong and selfish it was to keep that knowledge from him. I had never truly thought about how it would make him feel knowing what i had done but I realized I owed it to him so I disclosed.
> 
> His feelings and his pain were identical to yours even 25 years later. It was as if I'd shoved a knife in his heart and kept twisting it all through the day every day. A little less and less as time has gone by. I promised I would tell him whatever details he wanted to know and I would be honest no matter how much it shamed me -we both felt physically sick -I told him I would do whatever it took to help him feel safe within the marriage- take a poly, give him access to my phone, etc..I told him very honestly that I never loved this guy- I loved the way he made me feel (seen and heard) at a time when I was feeling invisible within the marriage. I knew I would never allow myself to REPEAT my infidelity. I NEVER did before or after that guy. It was situational- I realized what I wanted was for my H to give me what I was getting from OM. I never wanted anyone else I only wanted MORE from my H. I also realized that I was capable of doing what I did so put safeguards in place so it would never happen again. MC, IC, no OS friendships...
> 
> In the beginning H felt like you- he often felt like throwing up and sometimes physically did. He cried away from me, yelled at me and called me names and swore. He had never done that before. He wanted to leave me but didnt want to. H often tells me that he is still hurting (a year and a half later)and trying to deal with the pain I caused. We have been going to MC, IC, a weekend marriage retreat, I went to an IC relationship retreat on my own, we have read books, church based marital therapy courses....(this was also in an effort to deal with his recent EA)
> 
> It is a rollercoaster of emotions. Not an easy road. We BOTH know we love each other still and want to be together. What we didnt know and are still figuring out is how to get there in a healthy way. We want a better marriage, a more intimate marriage, a happier marriage where WE learn to meet each others needs and find out what they are.
> 
> We will make it because we both want to. We love each other above all else. My point ....under the right circumstances it can work out. There are successful reconciliations. Ours is still a work in progress...
> 
> If my H had discovered my A 25 years ago while I was still in the fog what should he have done?
> 
> 1.Say from a position of strength-I am not interested in sharing my wife. He can have you. I'm filing for a separation.
> 
> 2.Let me know that he was going to DNA the kids, get tested for STD's to show just how much I had destroyed his trust-and how disgusted he was with me
> 
> 3.Serve me with separation papers.
> 
> 4.Go on a vacation and dont tell me where or with whom.
> 
> 5.or/and as part of the 180 make sure there is a possibility I could suspect he was seeing someone else.
> 
> This would have shocked me out of my fog, let me see exactly the impact my actions and selfishness have had and experience the consequences for them, allow me to feel what its like to not have your cake, there is no better way to understand the devastation an A has than to experience what it feels like to even suspect your spouse is having one. I know this from experience.
> 
> Hindsight is 20/20 and of course I dont really know what would have happened if he'd done that but I suspect it would have forced a come to jesus moment....(to borrow @arbitrators words) Your wife will either be devastated and feel like she has lost her world prompting proper remorse (I think likely) or she could see this as her exit affair and not fight you on it and continue with the guy (it will never work out-he is only providing something your not- you have been providing all the rest)
> 
> Sorry so long, very sorry if I triggered anyone, I was trying to let you see things from another side- there is still hope, there are things you can do (also get yourself in IC asap) This experience is similar to having PTSD- you will need support


Holy sh!t. This is such a powerful post. 

It shows how even a good woman in a good marriage can fall prey to adultery.

It holds out a SMALL chance that this might have not gone sexual. We TAMers are a very jaded bunch. When you've spent so much time here, SI, and LS you see the same thing but there are WWs who don't completely go down the rabbit hole. 

I pray that OP's wife is one of the few that didn't take that far. Because I can tell that he's not one of the type that will be able to R with a wife that gave herself to another.

You need to try to get her to be completely honest. Let her believe that there is a possibility of R if she comes clean, quits her job, cuts all ties with OM, and completely makes herself an open book (phone tablet, all passwords, ETC). 

The coming clean should include an accurate time line with facts and acts of what she's done with OM. If she claims that they've only kissed and petted, then a poly can prove that.

You must know what you're forgiving. The last thing you want to to do is start R with forgiving a non-sexual PA only to find out later that she not only had sex but also had anal and performed BJTC.


----------



## TDSC60

cam42 said:


> She's offering to explain all the details, but I don't want to do it tonight because I actually want to get some sleep. I feel like ****ing **** what did this guy have that I didn't. Why didn't she just leave my ass and save me all of this. She asked me to come to bed with her sounded like an invitation to sex but I just declined. I'm so angry.


Tell her to write out a timeline of what happened. Every text. Every date they went on. What they did together - everything. Be prepared for more lying. 

Two adults do not "date" for six months and go on romantic dinners and hold hands unless they are having sex. I am reminded of what a friend of mine said when he caught his wife in an affair where not only was it sexual, she had told the OM that she loved him because he made her feel alive (unlike her husband). I asked him what he was going to do. He said when a man is faced with this he can; 1. Break down and cry and beg her to stay. 2. Do the pick-me dance and try to "nice" her out of the affair. or 3. Accept that she chose to be with other man behind his back and wish her luck in her life after the divorce. He said he had to choose option 3 and divorced her. He said although he loved her dearly and cherished their family, he could not have any self respect if he over looked this.


----------



## OnTheRocks

You seem to already know this, but they undoubtedly had sex. Most adults do not withhold sex for very long, especially not after 6 months of sexting and PDAs. Your wife is no longer the same person that wouldn't lie to you. You have to change your way of thinking about her, and detach. You have become her adversary, and she is protecting her boyfriend. I know this is hard to wrap your head around, but it is absolutely true. 

The likelihood that she will return to the marriage in any real sense is very low, and if she did, why would you want to share your life with someone that you now know is capable of this level of betrayal anyway? I would not want to risk my health and finances with such an deceitful and untrustworthy individual.


----------



## RWB

cam42 said:


> Are wayward spouses like really in an alternate universe? I've been reading and trying to understand more about this hell. I can only imagine that the wife and the OM are sneaking around on their lunch break having their way with each other. She's just acting ****ing strange. *Why couldn't she have just made it easier and asked for a divorced instead of doing this **** to me.* She gave me a hug today and I should of declined it.


I asked that exact question to my WW the night of DD. She responded "I never stopped loving you." So If you love me... you Fu-k another man and tell him that you love him. Pure Bat-Sh!t cra cra logic from the wayward.

BTW, she was definitely f''ing this OM. And... this probably wasn't your WW first rodeo.


----------



## arbitrator

cam42 said:


> Maybe everyone knew my wife was ****ing this dude except me and now I look like a joke. I've never felt this much humiliation in my life. I need her to show me the texts.


*Cam: Browse my rather lengthy thread to see exactly just how blindsided I was by my sneaky, lying, unrepentant RSXW! 

Let's just say that I had to be the biggest, most trusting idiot in the world!*


----------



## Danny4133

Cam,

I'm sorry you're here mate, you've been given some great advice so far, many of us, me included are going down this road, believe us when we say that cheaters all follow the same script. Anything you know or think you know is purely the tip of the iceberg. Don't be fooled that you caught this early or it didn't go physical. This has been going on for a good while and is absolutely a physical affair. See....another thing to be aware is cheaters minimise minimise minimise all they can to save their skin. It's evident she doesn't love nor respect you, is that something someone would be doing if they did? 

What's happened here is a starting gun fired and your wayward wife went and blasted two laps round the disengage / detach circuit before discovery. Now is the time for you to come out the blocks and catch up. During this first lap you're on autopilot because of the emotional abuse you've been subjected to. So take the steps that's been advised to you and let us help you until you gain clarity.

If she's not willing to open up
All social media access passwords the lot
Bank statements for the last 12 months from all her accounts
Mobile phone access and pass codes 

Then that's very telling.

Very strong and fast decisive action is needed here to regain control, and control is the key word. If you feel in your gut, if she stalls telling you anything you need to know, refuses to write a timeline, doesn't show genuine remorse then it's time to file.

Read up on the 180 and begin to live it.


----------



## Talker67

one problem with this website is it is populated by betrayed people, many of whom remain bitter about it. So when most of them tell you "for sure she has physically done this guy"...it actually is not certain at all. She could go on for years just holding hands and talking to this guy. A lot of people simply can not go over the line to physically cheat that way. 

So i would be looking for some actual proof: Hotel receipts, tracing her phone to a hotel room, a VAR in the car talking about what sex acts they just did, her admition, keylogger, recovered texts/emails, and on and on. It is possible you nipped this in the bud before it went too far. Keep looking

She SHOULD have given you passwords to all her acconts, so go looking thru them.


----------



## 225985

*Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



Talker67 said:


> one problem with this website is it is populated by betrayed people, many of whom remain bitter about it. So when most of them tell you "for sure she has physically done this guy"...it actually is not certain at all. She could go on for years just holding hands and talking to this guy. A lot of people simply can not go over the line to physically cheat that way.
> 
> So i would be looking for some actual proof: Hotel receipts, tracing her phone to a hotel room, a VAR in the car talking about what sex acts they just did, her admition, keylogger, recovered texts/emails, and on and on. It is possible you nipped this in the bud before it went too far. Keep looking
> 
> She SHOULD have given you passwords to all her acconts, so go looking thru them.




True. There are many betrayed here. And some are bitter. But there are also many cheaters here who agree with the advice. 

PIV is possible. If mutual feelings, it's pretty likely. Definitely? No. Unless he sees it or she admits. 

To many, emotional cheating is as bad or worse than PIV. 

But PIV or not, the situation is very bad and the advice is the same.


----------



## sokillme

RWB said:


> I asked that exact question to my WW the night of DD. She responded "I never stopped loving you." So If you love me... you Fu-k another man and tell him that you love him. Pure Bat-Sh!t cra cra logic from the wayward.
> 
> BTW, she was definitely f''ing this OM. And... this probably wasn't your WW first rodeo.


This just shows what her love is worth. Not much. I would rather she hated me in this instance. Plus I think it's probably Bull*** it makes no sense.


----------



## sokillme

Talker67 said:


> one problem with this website is it is populated by betrayed people, many of whom remain bitter about it. So when most of them tell you "for sure she has physically done this guy"...it actually is not certain at all. She could go on for years just holding hands and talking to this guy.


Who cares, cheating is cheating. 

Besides all that he needs to get out of infidelity.


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## OnTheRocks

Okay, optimists, where do you place the odds of it not going physical here? This is a 41 yr old who is admittedly falling for, going on cuddly dates, and sexting with a coworker. I give it a <1% chance it hasn't gone PIV. Sexting means she probably doesn't have moral or religious hangups getting in the way. As local coworkers, they have AMPLE opportunity.

And, at the end of the day, the only difference that it not being physical makes is that she didn't risk exposing OP to a STD.


----------



## sokillme

OP don't feel bad about trusting her, you are not a joke, she used your natural instinct as a husband against you. You wanted to trust and protect your wife, put her on a pedestal. It is that part of your nature that she used against you. That is what makes so very cruel. As good husbands we open our flanks, in a way, because we are trying wholeheartedly to provide for them, and protect them. Some wives use this to sneak around and take advantage of us. 

Wives who get cheated on have their nature cruelly used against them too. That is part of what makes the whole thing so insidious. 

I would also get tested and let your wife see it. This will also give her some idea of the impact it has had on your lives. 

Hang in there, again their really is hope. The deathstar may be gunning for you, but their is a flaw in the design, it's called time.


----------



## jsmart

There is a VERY likely chance that it's sexual but there are some PAs that don't go to the sexual level. 

Part of it is the timidness of SOME MM and the chickening out at the last minute from both parties. Then there's the logistics that can make it difficult for those with some dignity to resort to sex acts in a car or risking having a hotel charge on credit card. Not every wayward is a mastermind.

Having said all that, the chances are VERY high that sex happened.


----------



## arbitrator

nursejackie said:


> I was in a workplace affair 25 years ago. I loved my husband, we had a great sex life, he was/is very handsome and had a great body. We had a ton of fun together and had started a family. The only thing at that point that was missing was real intimate conversation. We were busy, it wasnt his thing, and I needed it desperately. I did tell him this often but it came off as whining or neediness I think. What I SHOULD have done was get him to MC where we could have figured out how to meet each others needs properly and learn to communicate and love in a mature fashion.
> 
> What happened instead was a coworker saw a vulnerability in me and worked at it. He figured out that need for conversation and provided it- as a friend, then as a good friend. Soon he became the person I saved my thoughts and stories for. He seemed to "get" me so perfectly....We socialized in groups together- still innocent nothing going on here just friends...eventually we acknowledge we cared for each other but would never cross any boundaries- I loved my husband. Then we were out as a group, crossed the line, I vowed never to cross it again but the fog by then is pretty thick. The dopamine is roaring through you and you feel like an addict that cant do without. Because I was immature and selfish and lazy and feel good driven I continued.
> 
> I never thought of what it could do to my family or my husband. Not once-except somewhere in the back of my head i knew not to go PIV or oral as I thought that might be a deal breaker for him if he found out. I never wanted to leave my H. I wanted my cake and to eat it too. I wanted - like a selfish child-everything I wanted.
> 
> I broke the A up after about 6 mos because I couldnt take the psychological dysfunct of it all. My actions were not on parallell with my values, my love for my husband, or the view I had of myself and my marriage. It was the hardest thing I ever had to do. It brought me to my knees to pray for the strength to do it. I did it. I went to confession where I was told to say some hail mary's and be a good wife, I went to IC where I was told to keep it to myself as it would serve no purpose except to hurt H. I didnt tell. I lived with that secret and it prevented me from having a full loving relationship with H. After coming on TAM for other reasons - I suspected H of having an EA with a coworker- I read all the threads and realized the true depth of what I had done to him and how wrong and selfish it was to keep that knowledge from him. I had never truly thought about how it would make him feel knowing what i had done but I realized I owed it to him so I disclosed.
> 
> His feelings and his pain were identical to yours even 25 years later. It was as if I'd shoved a knife in his heart and kept twisting it all through the day every day. A little less and less as time has gone by. I promised I would tell him whatever details he wanted to know and I would be honest no matter how much it shamed me -we both felt physically sick -I told him I would do whatever it took to help him feel safe within the marriage- take a poly, give him access to my phone, etc..I told him very honestly that I never loved this guy- I loved the way he made me feel (seen and heard) at a time when I was feeling invisible within the marriage. I knew I would never allow myself to REPEAT my infidelity. I NEVER did before or after that guy. It was situational- I realized what I wanted was for my H to give me what I was getting from OM. I never wanted anyone else I only wanted MORE from my H. I also realized that I was capable of doing what I did so put safeguards in place so it would never happen again. MC, IC, no OS friendships...
> 
> In the beginning H felt like you- he often felt like throwing up and sometimes physically did. He cried away from me, yelled at me and called me names and swore. He had never done that before. He wanted to leave me but didnt want to. H often tells me that he is still hurting (a year and a half later)and trying to deal with the pain I caused. We have been going to MC, IC, a weekend marriage retreat, I went to an IC relationship retreat on my own, we have read books, church based marital therapy courses....(this was also in an effort to deal with his recent EA)
> 
> It is a rollercoaster of emotions. Not an easy road. We BOTH know we love each other still and want to be together. What we didnt know and are still figuring out is how to get there in a healthy way. We want a better marriage, a more intimate marriage, a happier marriage where WE learn to meet each others needs and find out what they are.
> 
> We will make it because we both want to. We love each other above all else. My point ....under the right circumstances it can work out. There are successful reconciliations. Ours is still a work in progress...
> 
> If my H had discovered my A 25 years ago while I was still in the fog what should he have done?
> 
> 1.Say from a position of strength-I am not interested in sharing my wife. He can have you. I'm filing for a separation.
> 
> 2.Let me know that he was going to DNA the kids, get tested for STD's to show just how much I had destroyed his trust-and how disgusted he was with me
> 
> 3.Serve me with separation papers.
> 
> 4.Go on a vacation and dont tell me where or with whom.
> 
> 5.or/and as part of the 180 make sure there is a possibility I could suspect he was seeing someone else.
> 
> This would have shocked me out of my fog, let me see exactly the impact my actions and selfishness have had and experience the consequences for them, allow me to feel what its like to not have your cake, there is no better way to understand the devastation an A has than to experience what it feels like to even suspect your spouse is having one. I know this from experience.
> 
> Hindsight is 20/20 and of course I dont really know what would have happened if he'd done that but I suspect it would have forced a come to jesus moment....(to borrow @arbitrators words) Your wife will either be devastated and feel like she has lost her world prompting proper remorse (I think likely) or she could see this as her exit affair and not fight you on it and continue with the guy (it will never work out-he is only providing something your not- you have been providing all the rest)
> 
> Sorry so long, very sorry if I triggered anyone, I was trying to let you see things from another side- there is still hope, there are things you can do (also get yourself in IC asap) This experience is similar to having PTSD- you will need support


*NJ: This confession of yours is so heartfelt and revealing!

I'm in no way making excuses for what my RSXW covertly and blindsidedly did to me, but now I can see that she made me a part of the equation because I grew impatiently tired of her and her dopehead, tatted thugs of hers! I developed the mantra of not listening to her because of her severe deficiency of raising these jive ass kids of hers who made me ashamed to be a part of the household and of the community!

She threw money at them for their drugs, cigarettes, and tattoos, bailed them out of jail, paid their legal expenses, bought them cars, and even bought them a flophouse to live in! She would not listen to me in my pleas for her to exercise tough-love in throwing her doped-up, goth kids out of the door and out into the cold!

Greatly to the point that I quit listening to her because she wouldn't listen to me nor our MC who also said that the kids needed to go! 

No one quite had the need of having to have an ear to talk to as much as she did, as she could literally talk for hours upon end! When I quit being her sounding board, it is my theory that these two men from her past assumed that position in her life!

Like me, they didn't give a rats a$$ about her dopehead kids, or her minor investment problems ~ they gave her an open ear ~ greatly to the point that over a short matter of time, as they opened their ears to them on her trips to their venues, she opened her thighs to them, without me ever having the first damned clue as I trusted at least our fidelity for each other implicitly!

So now that Ol' Arb has put 2+2 together, I can now see that I too was to partially blame for what she did, but never to the point of ever vaguely wanting or desiring to ever cheat on her ~ more especially the way that she did to me!

Thanks, @nursejackie for your heartfelt confession that has opened my unbelieving eyes in so many ways!*


----------



## JohnA

Cam, @Nursejacke and @drifting on both gave you excellent summaries of posts to date. Spend the money (144.00? One time fee) and get PM access. Contact Drifting !!! If his marriage can be saved yours can. But first you have to mentally let her go and act like it. That means learning and living the 180. Critical Readings For Separation and Divorce - LoveShack.org Community Forums. Someone will post the let her go posts for you soon. 

Second you need to expose the adultery. Your wife is not a wyore or a shyt. She is an adulterous. A much colder and judgmental term. Do not use the word affair. I had a two month affair soph year in college over the summer. My exWW had an adulterous relationship. The act of adultery damage/destroys a marriage. This damages/destroys the children first, spouse second, extend family third and finally mutual friendships. Just peachee keen, way to go. Anyway I am going to paste the first post on the need to expose as often when DDay and the days after the BS has an inability to focus. Please review links when provided.

From MB *espousal 101*

Exposure is simply your most powerful weapon against an affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposure can be ruinous. Exposure is no guarantee, but it is your best bet at killing the affair and making it possible to save your marriage. YES, we know your spouse will be furious, but the goal is to save your marriage, not to avoid your wayward spouse's anger at all cost. Your marriage can survive his/her temporary anger; it cannot survive an ongoing affair. Read up on why exposure is so effective: When Should an Affair Be Exposed?*

Originally Posted By: Dr. Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders
"Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery."


Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
"The reason for the wide exposure is not to hurt the unfaithful spouse, but rather to end the fantasy. Your husband's secret second life made his affair possible, and the more you can to to make it public, the easier it is for him to see the damage he's doing. Keeping it secret does damage, but few know about it. Making it public helps everyone, including the unfaithful spouse and lover, see the affair for what it really is."


Dr Harley tells a betrayed husband he is an "enabler" for not exposing his wife's affair: radio clip*

Dr Harley tells BTinTrouble to "expose the heck out of his wife's affair" [exposure saved their marriage, btw] radio clip here*

Exposure targets
Parents of all concerned, family, close friends, children of the BS, workplace [if a workplace affair], spouse of the affair partner, pastor. Facebook friends of affair partner.*

Exposure Timing
Exposure should be done immediately. The longer you wait, the more entrenched the affair becomes. There is never any “perfect” time to expose, so don’t delay while looking for an imaginary perfect time.*

Expose on the SAME DAY – or as close as possible – in order to achieve a tsunami effect. The affairees should be completely taken by surprise. Doing this creates a powerful hit on the affair and prevents the affairees from pre-empting you

Exposure Tactics

Spouse of affair partner- Give your full name, phone # and email address. Tell the other BS all about the affair, offer to share all evidence with him/her. Offer to follow up to ensure that contact is truly ended and ask the other BS to do the same. The other BS will be shocked when you tell him, so be sure and give your email address and phone # for follow up questions. ALWAYS GIVE THE OTHER BS YOUR WS'S PHONE # IN CASE HE/SHE WANTS TO CALL.*

Parents, close family, friends – Tell them about the affair, giving them names, general timelines, etc. Explain you are attempting to save your marriage and would be willing to forgive your WS if he/she ended the affair. Ask them to use their influence to persuade the WS to end her affair. A way to save time is to call both sets of parents and send an email to the other close family and friends. Template letter posted below

Parents of affair partner. Give your full name and explain why you are calling. Ask them to use their influence with their son/daughter to persuade them to leave your spouse alone. It might also help if the PARENT of the WS calls them too.*

Workplace exposure: Expose to Director of Human Resources, a key VP and both of the affairee’s supervisors using the template letter posted below.

Facebook exposure: Should be done to the affair partner’s facebook friends via private message. This is a very, very effective exposure because it is a collection of the AP’s closest friends and family. SPACE THE PM’S OUT 60 SECONDS APART SO FB DOES NOT SHUT YOU DOWN FOR FLOODING. Before you begin, copy and paste all the contacts into a WORD doc. Change your fb picture to a picture of you and your spouse and children. Template letters posted below.


Send the Evidence! Provide the evidence via email to your exposure targets. One ideal way to do this is to start up a website, upload your evidence and send out the link to everyone. This prevents the WS from denying there is an affair.

The Fallout
Expect your spouse to be FURIOUS and to make all manner of threats, “I was going to work on the marriage, now I am not!!” “I cannot trust you” “You have to pack and leave!!” “You have ruined any chance you had!!” Do not let this bother you!! Just imagine that you have taken the crackpipe away from the crack head. Of course they are angry. But it will blow over. Don’t laugh, don’t fight, don't attempt to reason with them, and most of all, don’t be SCARED! Your marriage can survive some temporary anger, it cannot survive an ongoing affair! The madder your WS, the harder you hit the target!*

The goal is to save your marriage, NOT to avoid your wayward spouse's anger at all costs.

Just say, "I am so sorry you are upset.. Can I get you a potato chip?" *

Common Exposure Mistakes

Telling the WS that you got the idea to expose on the internet rather than taking ownership of your actions. Then the discussion becomes “who???” When the WS is told it was Marriage Builders, the WS is forever jaundiced against Marriage Builders, which harms future recovery chances. You need to OWN IT. Saying somebody told you to do it does not work for 5 year olds and it won’t work for you!

Keeping exposure a secret. Yes, you read right. But we have had exposure targets say “ok, I will keep this a secret!!” And they never tell the WS they know. That defeats the entire purpose. If that person won’t help you by speaking to your WS, at least TELL the WS that person knows.*

Doing trickle exposures. Meaning exposing to just a few people but not to everyone that could have an influence. Trickle exposures are a disaster because they are not enough to kill the affair but just enough to infuriate the WS enough to come after the BS. So the exposure essentially only served to beat down the already beaten BS for no benefit.

Eliminating exposure targets because that person “has no influence over my WS” even though this is a person with long history over the WS. Such as a mother or father. Such targets cannot be dismissed on such a subjective basis because the BS CANNOT PREDICT WHO WILL OR WON’T HAVE AN INFLUENCE OVER THE WS. Sorry, but unless you are psychic and your name is Madame Cleo, you don’t know. Many WS are estranged from a parent, sibling, pastor but that is not a knock out factor.*

Threatening to expose. Using exposure as a threat only serves to forewarn the affairees and cause them to go further underground. All you have achieved is to give the enemy your battle plan so they can come back and kick your rear tomorrow. It also gives them an opportunity to pre-empt you and tell others you are “crazy” “jealous”. Then then when you do expose no one will take you seriously. Threatening to expose is the equivalent of giving your battle plan to the enemy. Don't do that!

Deleting or throwing away evidence after the affair is killed. DO NOT DO THIS! You will need this in case the affair starts up again or if you get divorced. Yes, we know you don't want to be triggered. Fine. Then bag up the evidence and put it somewhere for safekeeping. Do not throw it away!

Here is the link*Exposure 101 - Your Most Powerful Weapon - Marriage Builders® Forums


----------



## sokillme

arbitrator said:


> *So now that Ol' Arb has put 2+2 together, I can now see that I too was to partially blame for what she did, but never to the point of ever vaguely wanting or desiring to ever cheat on her ~ more especially the way that she did to me!
> 
> Thanks, @nursejackie for your heartfelt confession that has opened my unbelieving eyes in so many ways!*


No offense AB but your situation and nursejackie's don't sound similar at all. Your wife is nothing like nursejackie. You may have stayed too long in the situation, but with the way your wife was acting something is very wrong and you have nothing to do with that. 

I don't think nursejackie is saying her husband is at all to blame for her cheating as well. I think she is just trying to help OP see where her mind was at and that it didn't have anything to do with her husband. Sadly the fact that that is the case also points out that her mind was no where on her husband when is should have been. That is very scary and, in my opinion, rightfully a deal breaker for most.


----------



## JohnA

Did you catch the fact any child over the age of four. Understand many posters feel overall this site is toxic because it is to easy on the WS, and by and large I think they are right!!!

Please get PM access sooner than later. I have many saved posts that can help. Nursejackie described exactly how this guy did it. A post I have can give you a step by step how to. It will help your understand how she could do this. Which does not mean she is not responsible. 

The first rule is the adultery must end today!! Separation/divorce or agreement to stop and discuss ATTEMPING (not achieving) reconciliation. Exposure is a necessary step in either case. The second is make a plan Stan. No matter what you need to plan both a divorce and post divorce life and complete the necessary paper work. You WW must know to the bone she is completely box in and the walls are closing in. Exposure stops so many problems with rewriting, justification, support for the adultery from friends and family. Forms filled sets a time table. 

Re-read drifting on post. Did you notce what he did not do??? He showed no anger only resolve. Who is your friend and how did it turn out for him? 
Be well end the infidelity today.


----------



## arbitrator

sokillme said:


> No offense AB but your situation and nursejackie's don't sound similar at all. Your wife is nothing like nursejackie. You may have stayed too long in the situation, but with the way your wife was acting something is very wrong and you have nothing to do with that.
> 
> I don't think nursejackie is saying her husband is at all to blame for her cheating as well. I think she is just trying to help OP see where her mind was at and that it didn't have anything to do with her husband. Sadly the fact that that is the case also points out that her mind was no where on her husband when is should have been. That is very scary and, in my opinion, rightfully a deal breaker for most.


*Clearly, they are nothing alike, and I still contend that my role in our demise was quite minimal compared to that of my RSXW! IMHO, @nursejackie is to be totally commended for her brutal honesty!

What I was simply conveying and am in total agreement with was that our relationship ended, clearly on her part, when she refused to listen to either me or our marriage counselor! Unlike the MC, I turned my ears and my emotions away from her because I felt that I had no other recourse! To wit, I either indirectly drove her away, or she was ready to walk anyway!

So she apparently took her mouth elsewhere to men from her past, who otherwise might not have given a rats a$$ about the content of what she was saying, but because they took the time to open their ears to listen to her, she took the time to become both emotionally and physically attached to them, all without the remotest suspicion on my part!*


----------



## frusdil

cam42 said:


> This can't be happening to me. I don't want to be a part time dad I don't want to lose my wife I DON'T WANT A LIFE WITHOUT MY WIFE AND KIDS. I am panicking **** :frown2:


OP, I can feel your pain through your posts...what you are going through is horrendous, and you're still in shock. PLEASE don't let that cloud your judgement and make you waffle on this. Your wife needs a big BIG wake up call. Her world needs to be rocked. She needs to have it rammed home exactly what she's losing. File for divorce, remember that you can stop the process at any time...it doesn't have to be permanent.


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## Chaparral

The only thing that stands out here is that she was still having sex with you. That usually indicates that she was not totally in love with the Posom. However, it could mean she can't separate her love for you and engage in recreational sex with other men.

Use dr. fone to recover her texts. Get a car for her car, Velcro under her seat. Get var for the house bane you are conveniently not there. Put a gps on her car.

The most important thing is that she stops contacting him immediately. Especially at work. Make her quit now. She doesn't quit ask her to leave the house and you keep the kids.

Strength will win this battle. 
Get the MMSLP book linked to below. You have fallen down in the romancing the wife dept.


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## cam42

Hey guys I've read all the posts and couldn't thank you all more for helping me through this difficult time. You guys probably care more about my well being than my so called life partner. 

Anyway the other man's wife says she has the whole story of the affair text messages, love notes, everything her husband confessed as he's begging her not to divorce him. I know I can't rely on her but having someone that's going through the same exact situation. Were supposed to have a meet up and talk all about this, he also broke contact with my wife yesterday. She said he was crying like a baby and begging her not to divorce. 

So yeah she wants to meet up with me, any advice on how to go about this? Only me and her and not our spouses.


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## sokillme

Sad to here dude. Were you right was it a PA? Hang in there. Keep hope in the window of your prison right now and keep looking out at it. That is where you are headed.


----------



## OnTheRocks

This is the classic story. We're at the point where OM dumps your W to save his family. Given that, I bet she'll 'see the light' after a couple days of no contact with her boyfriend, and want to reconcile your marriage. Don't be a doormat. File.


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## sixty-eight

cam42 said:


> Hey guys I've read all the posts and couldn't thank you all more for helping me through this difficult time. You guys probably care more about my well being than my so called life partner.
> 
> Anyway the other man's wife says she has the whole story of the affair text messages, love notes, everything her husband confessed as he's begging her not to divorce him. I know I can't rely on her but having someone that's going through the same exact situation. Were supposed to have a meet up and talk all about this, he also broke contact with my wife yesterday. She said he was crying like a baby and begging her not to divorce.
> 
> So yeah she wants to meet up with me, any advice on how to go about this? Only me and her and not our spouses.


ask her for a copy. meet somewhere you can make a copy of all evidence she has (like a library) where you have access to a computer and a physical copier/scanner.


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## sokillme

OnTheRocks said:


> This is the classic story. We're at the point where OM dumps your W to save his family. Given that, I bet she'll 'see the light' after a couple days of no contact with her boyfriend, and want to reconcile your marriage. Don't be a doormat. File.


Adding to this. Many people dealing with the pain, welcome their spouses back and rug sweep, once the shock wears off in a year or two, see the crap deal they got end up resenting it and hating their lives. Think long and hard about this. Don't settle for your cheating wife just because it's what you know. The woman that was your wife is dead.


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## GusPolinski

cam42 said:


> Hey guys I've read all the posts and couldn't thank you all more for helping me through this difficult time. You guys probably care more about my well being than my so called life partner.
> 
> Anyway the other man's wife says she has the whole story of the affair text messages, love notes, everything her husband confessed as he's begging her not to divorce him. I know I can't rely on her but having someone that's going through the same exact situation. Were supposed to have a meet up and talk all about this, he also broke contact with my wife yesterday. She said he was crying like a baby and begging her not to divorce.
> 
> So yeah she wants to meet up with me, any advice on how to go about this? Only me and her and not our spouses.


Unless he confessed to sex, he's putting on a huge snow job, so have some salt and a shovel nearby.


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## jsmart

It's good to meet to compare notes and to set up a system of how to warn each other if one you sees something fishy. Don't be surprised if she's found nude pics of your wife, or proclamations of love, and evidence of sex. You should get Dr Phone to retrieve deleted text, snap chats, and emails.

Not that it would happen but you guys hooking up for at least a ONS would be some sweet justice that I'm sure both of you would enjoy.


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## Satya

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*

It's essential that you remain logical at all times when dealing with your now emotional wife. Remember that real remorse requires time and immense effort in her part. You are not required to take her back, it's a choice that must be decided by you and you alone, when the time is right for you. 

You'll have experience from many sides here - those who have successfully reconciled, those who agreed to reconcile and found it unsuccessful, and those who ended things immediately and moved on. This journey will help you to find the person you are and who you will become for your future - to not short change yourself by making any hasty decisions.


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## Satya

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &amp;quot;emotional affair&amp;quot; with a married man*

.


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## MattMatt

Do what is right for you.

Listen to the advice on TAM and from people in your life but do not follow any advice slavishly.

We will be here for you no matter what decisions you make.


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## nursejackie

arbitrator said:


> *NJ: This confession of yours is so heartfelt and revealing!
> 
> I'm in no way making excuses for what my RSXW covertly and blindsidedly did to me, but now I can see that she made me a part of the equation because I grew impatiently tired of her and her dopehead, tatted thugs of hers! I developed the mantra of not listening to her because of her severe deficiency of raising these jive ass kids of hers who made me ashamed to be a part of the household and of the community!
> 
> She threw money at them for their drugs, cigarettes, and tattoos, bailed them out of jail, paid their legal expenses, bought them cars, and even bought them a flophouse to live in! She would not listen to me in my pleas for her to exercise tough-love in throwing her doped-up, goth kids out of the door and out into the cold!
> 
> Greatly to the point that I quit listening to her because she wouldn't listen to me nor our MC who also said that the kids needed to go!
> 
> No one quite had the need of having to have an ear to talk to as much as she did, as she could literally talk for hours upon end! When I quit being her sounding board, it is my theory that these two men from her past assumed that position in her life!
> 
> Like me, they didn't give a rats a$$ about her dopehead kids, or her minor investment problems ~ they gave her an open ear ~ greatly to the point that over a short matter of time, as they opened their ears to them on her trips to their venues, she opened her thighs to them, without me ever having the first damned clue as I trusted at least our fidelity for each other implicitly!
> 
> So now that Ol' Arb has put 2+2 together, I can now see that I too was to partially blame for what she did, but never to the point of ever vaguely wanting or desiring to ever cheat on her ~ more especially the way that she did to me!
> 
> Thanks, @nursejackie for your heartfelt confession that has opened my unbelieving eyes in so many ways!*


 @arbitrator -tough to put emotions into words sometimes (your descriptions however make your sentiments very clear- I always get a chuckle out of them!) 
I know you know I was not in any way putting the blame on a BS, and certainly not you! I was just trying to let him know where a WW head might be. Given the right set of s#it piles......and how circumstances can make someone an easier target for a POS predator. Still and always my choice, my fault, my mess to clean up.
Your ears may have gone deaf after banging your head against the wall for so long trying to make her understand some sense...She didnt even listen to the MC's advice! It is very sad what she put you through. She sure wasnt helping her kids any either.
@JohnA - exactly! I read that list of yours when you posted it before. I think that was when I realized just what a giant Turd OM was. Calculating, manipulative with one end in mind- and it wasnt handholding....I was stupid and a s#ithead myself for having such poor boundaries and falling for all that crap. I told H I wouldnt care if he went and put a bullet through the guys head...at times he'd like to- I figure it helps him to know I'd just shrug my shoulders and take his hand if he did.0...probably not the right emoticon

Cam -you dont want to cut your nose off to spite your face- you want it to APPEAR as if that is what you are willing to do..if it later seems like there is remorse and still love between the two of you- you can change your mind and try to make it work if that would be best for YOU. 

It is about looking at all the opinions here and recognizing your situation is unique because the individuals are unique. My MC says it is always more difficult to divorce than to reconcile. More difficult emotionally, financially etc. and she has been divorced. She is now happily remarried but said if she had the hindsight and tools to save the first marriage she would have tried much harder looking back. Reconciliation is not for everyone just dont take it off the table yet.

I am sorry you are hurting.


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## Pixel

Hey Cam... sorry you're here too. I am in the same boat with facing the disappointment of finding out the person you thought you loved never existed.

I wish I had as much evidence as you. It's a gift even though it doesn't seem like it because it hurts. Use it wisely!


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## straightshooter

cam42 said:


> Hey guys I've read all the posts and couldn't thank you all more for helping me through this difficult time. You guys probably care more about my well being than my so called life partner.
> 
> Anyway the other man's wife says she has the whole story of the affair text messages, love notes, everything her husband confessed as he's begging her not to divorce him. I know I can't rely on her but having someone that's going through the same exact situation. Were supposed to have a meet up and talk all about this, he also broke contact with my wife yesterday. She said he was crying like a baby and begging her not to divorce.
> 
> So yeah she wants to meet up with me, any advice on how to go about this? Only me and her and not our spouses.


Cam,

Does your wife know you are meeting the wife of OM?? My guess is OM called her and told her. You can count on some revision in her story if she thinks you are going to get the truth, or more of it.

I believe most of us believe you are going to get some really sordid details from this woman so you need to make a plan. Her husband would not be a babbling fool over an EA with no sex. 

Now is the time to tell your wife she has about 30 seconds to start on a WRITTEN timeline of everything that occurred and make no promises to her about the outcome. You need that to compare to what you are told and you need it written so she cannot revise history. And now is the time to tell her that whatever she tells you will be verified by a polygraph test.

You have two positive things going for you
(1) you were smart enough to accept that if a bunch of strangers who have been through this were basically telling you the same things in different words, that the group was probably not crazy. Congratulations on being a smart guy and listening to what you most likely did not want to hear. That has greatly increased your chances of a positive outcome based on the truth, whichever way this may go.
(2) The wife of OM is not trying to rugsweeep this and is willing to fill in the blanks for you. That fact alone makes it much harder for your wife to gaslight you or minimize what she has done.

And you need to retrieve those texts and not accept from your wife that she deleted them. Then you take her phone and install the software to retrieve them.

Now it appears, as happens most of the time, that the OM has thrown your wife under the bus to save his ass. Let me remind you that it is him doing that and your wife has not been the one to come clean. Do not forget that.

If her boyfriend is no longer available Cam, now you will probably get what is most likely all sorts of apologies and swearing on everyone's grave that she is so sorry, etc. Right now that is all bull ****. She did not confess anything. She is horrified she got caught, and she is going to be hoping that by luring you with fancy talk and/or sex that you will let this go and rugsweep. DO NOT LET THAT HAPPEN. 

And please, again, stay away from any marriage therapy UNTIL your know the entire truth. There is more advice you need before and if you go down that route. It can be helpful or disasterous, depending on who you see. But you do not do any of that until you know if there is anything to save.

Cam, now is the time not to backtrack and go towards the "pick me" game. Make no commitments to your wife until all is revealed. Affairs THRIVE in secrecy and fear of getting caught is what motivates that. To be parading around in public holding hands like a couple makes I am sure most of us believe you have just gotten to the tip of the iceberg.


----------



## sokillme

straightshooter said:


> If her boyfriend is no longer available Cam, now you will probably get what is most likely all sorts of apologies and swearing on everyone's grave that she is so sorry, etc. Right now that is all bull ****. She did not confess anything. She is horrified she got caught, and she is going to be hoping that by luring you with fancy talk and/or sex that you will let this go and rugsweep. DO NOT LET THAT HAPPEN.


Understand all of that is a strategic retreat on her part. Because you offer her financial security. It's not love or even remorse. It takes WS years to get what the did, and maybe 1% get it. She may say she always loved you even when she did this, but that's not love and even if you want to call it that, it doesn't have much value. That feeling has to do with selfishness, and probably always did. You did for her so she "loved" you, when she found someone who did what you were doing maybe more intensely at the moment she betrayed you. She may call it love and that may be all she's got, but it is basically at the whim of her personal gratification. Remember that when you start to make your decisions. When love is given for selfish aims it is basically very shallow and useless in the long run. 

Read this these are the most sincere of wayward spouses. They really want to fix their marriages. Yet you see the mindset. People who would never cheat could never see anything good coming out of an affair, let alone write about it on an infidelity site. Again these people (the ones who are doing the most work I might add) are still able to see it from how it benefited them. They aren't and never really will get the pain they caused because if they did they would be ashamed to even respond to the question. It's part of why they could do it. They don't have the kind of empathy like the rest of us do. 

Understand this is what you are dealing with.


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## Evinrude58

Good advice above.

Don't even talk to your wife until you get the whole story from the other man's wife. What a gift of knowledge you are being given!

I suspect after seeing and reading what you're going to see, you may wisely decide your wife is not who you thought you married, and you may choose to go a different route than you once thought.

They are right: your wife got caught red handed, and all she wanted at the time was HIM. Now that she can't have him, your value will go up drastically. Is she truly valuing YOU???????
Or is she trying to hang on to the security you provided?

If I were the OM's wife, I'd think long and hard about his "remorse" as well. He was holding hands with his mistress in public. They had no shame whatsoever about their dastardly deeds. At least most cheaters have enough shame to crawl around in the shadows and do their nefarious activities.
These two were no narcissistic, they felt no remorse at all about the betrayal of their loyal spouses.


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## cam42

I'm not sure if the wife knows I'm meeting her. I'm barely talking to her at all and don't really answer her texts. She came to sit on the bed with me yesterday while I was laying down and kept asking me if I wanted any "stimulation" and that she's so sorry and will do whatever she can to make it right. We had an active sex life before d-day so it was hard. I told her I don't want her mouth anywhere near my junk until she gets tested for stds. 

She said she will tommorrow while crying. I hate seeing her cry but I knew I couldn't comfort her. I'm meeting with the other woman tonight and she's bringing me everything and the full story. I don't know if I want to divorce yet as this is very raw. I don't like being at home anymore because my wife does whatever she can to be in the same room with me and apologize. Someone suggested a ONS with the other mans wife and I couldn't help but laugh a little bit. At the moment I'd have sex with her over my wife but wouldn't go through with that.

Did anyone here have a good sex life before their WS affair? I just don't get it.


----------



## ABHale

I would say you should meet with the OM's wife. 

Let your wife know when you are walking out the door to do so. Just say that her H has told her everything and the two of you are meeting to compare notes. Then say she has nothing to worry about if she has told the truth as the door shuts.


----------



## drifting on

Cam42

Meet with the other wife, schedule this asap!! Ask for copies of all communication that she has. You don't have to look at it now, but you can always read it if you need to. In my case, I needed all of the details, you might even if you don't want to read now. Also, you should have told your wife no contact with OM, so ten minutes before you leave to meet OM's wife tell your wife. Monitor her communications to see if she attempts to contact OM. If she contacts ON she is protecting him!! Be cold when you tell your wife, tell her you are getting copies of all the texts, tell her you are unsure of divorce. Then walk out the door slamming it. 

You have to appear willing to lose this marriage and your wife. In fact you have lost her to another, so gear up and treat this as the war that it is. Your wife allowed the advances of another into your marriage, show her how you would destroy any infraction to your marriage. It's the only way, you can never nice her back, just like she wasn't nice to you. 

Now that I'm dumped her she is confused, what she thought she had wasn't. She will now feel stupid for giving herself away for nothing at all. Do not allow her to wallow in that pity, only allow her to grieve the relationship. During this time you need to be firm, not ruthless, but firm. Give her the consequences she has bestowed upon herself, do not be her support system, she needs to grow strong in her own. I refused to comfort my wife, especially when the relationship should never have existed, so when your wife says you are uncaring or unsupportive just ask this. Would you comfort and support me if I did the same. Trust me it works great, especially if said in an uncaring and flat monotone. 

I'm not about hurting anyone, but your wife needs to feel these consequences and pain to grow into a better person. Good luck.


----------



## ABHale

So did she admit to anything more then a EA? Or is she sticking to it was just a EA still.


----------



## cam42

ABHale said:


> So did she admit to anything more then a EA? Or is she sticking to it was just a EA still.


I didn't ask her because I'm sure it was more than an EA no matter what she says. There's a night in particular that I'm sure she had a night with her boyfriend. Day before New Year's Eve she was dolled up with a dress and heels and said she was going out with her girlfriends. She came come later than she said she would and showered right afterwards with her hair all messed up. I asked about that night to the other mans wife and she confirmed over the phone. 

That sounds so pathetic, she even asked me how she looked before she went to go **** the other guy. The anger I feel is unbelievable.


----------



## sokillme

cam42 said:


> I'm not sure if the wife knows I'm meeting her. I'm barely talking to her at all and don't really answer her texts. She came to sit on the bed with me yesterday while I was laying down and kept asking me if I wanted any "stimulation" and that she's so sorry and will do whatever she can to make it right. We had an active sex life before d-day so it was hard. I told her I don't want her mouth anywhere near my junk until she gets tested for stds.
> 
> She said she will tommorrow while crying. I hate seeing her cry but I knew I couldn't comfort her. I'm meeting with the other woman tonight and she's bringing me everything and the full story. I don't know if I want to divorce yet as this is very raw. I don't like being at home anymore because my wife does whatever she can to be in the same room with me and apologize. Someone suggested a ONS with the other mans wife and I couldn't help but laugh a little bit. At the moment I'd have sex with her over my wife but wouldn't go through with that.
> 
> Did anyone here have a good sex life before their WS affair? I just don't get it.


Since she is agreeing to STD's sounds like it was a PA. For lots of men, that makes it worse. I really don't think there is a difference. Both are monstrous. 

Better off to think of your wife as dead. This woman is an imposter. Stop trying to be her husband, she fired you. She doesn't get to hire you back now that the new guy didn't' work out. Again understand all her apologies and face saving is just protecting her ass. It just makes her worse in my opinion. 

I have mixed feelings about sleeping with the wife. I will say that the marriage contract is broken once there has been a PA, so I don't think you are cheating. Marriage is the only contract where the party, that has the terms that were promised broken, yet some still expect them to hold up their end of the bargain. That seem like crap to me, ridiculously unfair, it's a contract, not a license to be abused. However, I don't think it fixes much and often makes it worse but I won't judge you. 

Can you go on a weeks vacation alone? Go see friends or family without her. Let her suffer a little. She needs to and it will give you some feeling of justice.


----------



## Evinrude58

cam42 said:


> I'm not sure if the wife knows I'm meeting her. I'm barely talking to her at all and don't really answer her texts. She came to sit on the bed with me yesterday while I was laying down and kept asking me if I wanted any "stimulation" and that she's so sorry and will do whatever she can to make it right. We had an active sex life before d-day so it was hard. I told her I don't want her mouth anywhere near my junk until she gets tested for stds.
> 
> She said she will tommorrow while crying. I hate seeing her cry but I knew I couldn't comfort her. I'm meeting with the other woman tonight and she's bringing me everything and the full story. I don't know if I want to divorce yet as this is very raw. I don't like being at home anymore because my wife does whatever she can to be in the same room with me and apologize. Someone suggested a ONS with the other mans wife and I couldn't help but laugh a little bit. At the moment I'd have sex with her over my wife but wouldn't go through with that.
> 
> Did anyone here have a good sex life before their WS affair? I just don't get it.


While my wife was having multiple online affairs and likely physical affairs also, we had sex every single night. Hysterical binding for me. I asked her why she wanted sec with me if she was no longer attracted or in love with me. Her response: I could have sex with anyone that was as attentive as you are being". Totally self centered, selfish behavior which I allowed. It had nothing to do with her being in love with me. I suspect it was the same for yours. She liked the physical part of sex with you. Just didn't have any feelings involved in it.


----------



## sokillme

cam42 said:


> That sounds so pathetic, she even asked me how she looked before she went to go **** the other guy. The anger I feel is unbelievable.


Again this just shows you what kind of person she is. Decent people don't do this. Others will say I am wrong, but could you do that? See your wife for who she is. It's important to your healing that you kill the reverence that you hold her in. It will make it easier to get better. You lost the potential for some good times, but not an honest and decent person.


----------



## Evinrude58

I like the fact that you're angry.
I was an emotional wreck--- couldn't feel anger, hate, love, or anything else for a while except desperation, sadness, depression...
I got divorced as a result.

Not that I should have, but if I'd have manned up and kicked my ex out and didn't speak to her, I believe it may have turned out differently.
Your strength of character which you are demostrating will give you the options to do well, whichever path you choose.


----------



## sokillme

Evinrude58 said:


> I like the fact that you're angry.
> I was an emotional wreck--- couldn't feel anger, hate, love, or anything else for a while except desperation, sadness, depression...
> I got divorced as a result.
> 
> Not that I should have, but if I'd have manned up and kicked my ex out and didn't speak to her, I believe it may have turned out differently.
> Your strength of character which you are demostrating will give you the options to do well, whichever path you choose.


From your description in your last post, you got the best result. I mean what she did to you was awful.


----------



## Grapes

sokillme said:


> Adding to this. Many people dealing with the pain, welcome their spouses back and rug sweep, once the shock wears off in a year or two, see the crap deal they got end up resenting it and hating their lives. Think long and hard about this. Don't settle for your cheating wife just because it's what you know. The woman that was your wife is dead.


so much this - This is what happens. Speaking from experience. The thought never goes away. You will always look over your shoulder. On top of it all your wife had NO intentions of stopping it. The only reason she is crying blah blah blah is because she got caught. Think about it. She was never going to tell you and was happy as a pig is sh1t until caught. Ive actually forgotten what it feel like to be in a trusting relationship after R. dont be me man. File and protect yourself. If down the road it could work then so be it.

They work together she would have to leave job before any R can be discussed. Period. That is a must. All the work YOU will have to do to get over this.. is it worth it? She may be the kids mother but she wasnt even your FRIEND let alone wife. Friends dont hurt and lie.


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## arbitrator

*In my ripe old age, I can now deal with all of those incessant, nasty thoughts and mind movies of my both of my XW's having their bodies connected and intertwined to some other guy for their attempt at deriving sexual and psychological pleasure!

But what I absolutely cannot even begin to fathom is all of the covert secrecy, the brazen callousness and the downright deceit in which they inconsciably carried out their sordid acts of betrayal of me, our holy vows, and of our family!*


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## drifting on

Cam42

Everything you thought once was, isn't. Reality is, your thoughts are rapid, everything is moving fast and your thought process is nonexistent. This is normal, it will slow down in a few days, but as you said its raw. Tell your wife you need space, her inserting herself to you is damaging to any hope of any reconciliation. You need time to sort out all that has happened. Tell her if she is truly sorry she would give you this space. 

As for the affair, I'm sure you know it was physical. Kissing is physical, and even though it may not have included sex, I'm in the camp that sex did happen. You should contact a well trusted friend that you can share this information with. Don't go through this alone, infidelity has a way of consuming an individual.


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## 225985

*Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



arbitrator said:


> *In my ripe old age, I can now deal with all of those incessant, nasty thoughts and mind movies of my both of my XW's having their bodies connected and intertwined to some other guy for their attempt at deriving sexual and psychological pleasure!
> 
> 
> 
> But what I absolutely cannot even begin to fathom is all of the covert secrecy, the brazen callousness and the downright deceit in which they inconsciably carried out their sordid acts of betrayal of me, our holy vows, and of our family!*




Why can't you fathom it? It's quite common and quite easy.

Unfortunately


----------



## TX-SC

I can only add to the chorus here and say that what you thought you knew about your wife was simply wrong. She is capable of lying straight to your face and she does not hold your marriage in the same light you do. Consider this carefully before moving forward. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## Bibi1031

cam42 said:


> Did anyone here have a good sex life before their WS affair? I just don't get it.


I did. That is why when the $hit hit the fan I was dumbfounded. He of course tole the AP that we were just living like brother and sister for the sake of the kids. Gag me!

My X was very good at compartmentalizing, most cheaters are! Your wife is a classic example as well. That is why she could have a healthy sex life with you and also have a married boyfriend/lover on the side. You and her lover's wife were nicely placed in a box/compartment and she could cake eat all she wanted until her and her AP were ready to make their own little nest after leaving yours and his wife's nest in shambles. 

And let's even think about the ripple effect their selfishness will cause on the kids and future grand kids. I am 13 years out of my 21 year marriage with the X. My children suffered and are still dealing with the ripple effect his leaving us over his AP has caused. Daughter had daddy issues and seeked relationships with men looking for a daddy figure. It was really bad. 3.5 years of therapy helped a lot, but the damage was done. She married a great guy and cheated on him with a married lowlife. And yes, she can compartmentalize really good as she cheated on her husband for 1.5 years before realizing she was a total fool just like her dad. As to our son, he doesn't care about marriage and family because of what stupid ole dad did. He thinks relationships are disposable and he will never have kids. My boy was not that cynical. He was a very sweet, loving and caring kid. 

Now, We don't only have to separately see our kids, we also have to see our grand kids separately as well. It truly sucks, but it's what it is thanks to his cheating arse!.


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## JohnA

Be careful of your emotions when meeting BW. You both are there to share data, no more or less. Police will tell you domestic situations are the most dangerous they face. Reactions in your case could range from blaming other wayward spouse, leading to blaming you for not being a better husband/wife to an offer of a sexual relationship. So in the immortal words of Sgt Joe Friday: "just the facts, just the facts please. 

As @drifting on suggested if you can montitor ALL forms of communication inform her before leaving. Use this as an opportunity for what is refered to here as the parking lot confession before a polygraph. I would add stress any form of breaking NC the marriage is done and you will pusue a scorch earth policy. Stress this is the first real test of her commint to frist the value of her vows to herself and secondly to you. 
Stress you cannot tell her how many times because you TRUSTED HER you overlooked red flags and as a result suffered alone. Stress every time she choose to talk with him, be with him she left you out in the cold alone and starving. 

Finally theses two threads may help you clarify your thoughts on your feelings and what she should know. 

Critical Readings For Separation and Divorce - LoveShack.org Community Forums

Things that every wayward spouse needs to know - LoveShack.org Community Forums

Be well think thrice not twice and then go bold!!


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## KaggyBear

an "emotional" affair lmao. the cheater is already trying to weasel her way out of the trouble she's caused. disgusting


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## TDSC60

cam42 said:


> I'm not sure if the wife knows I'm meeting her. I'm barely talking to her at all and don't really answer her texts. She came to sit on the bed with me yesterday while I was laying down and kept asking me if I wanted any "stimulation" and that she's so sorry and will do whatever she can to make it right. We had an active sex life before d-day so it was hard. I told her I don't want her mouth anywhere near my junk until she gets tested for stds.
> 
> She said she will tommorrow while crying. I hate seeing her cry but I knew I couldn't comfort her. I'm meeting with the other woman tonight and she's bringing me everything and the full story. I don't know if I want to divorce yet as this is very raw. I don't like being at home anymore because my wife does whatever she can to be in the same room with me and apologize. Someone suggested a ONS with the other mans wife and I couldn't help but laugh a little bit. At the moment I'd have sex with her over my wife but wouldn't go through with that.
> 
> Did anyone here have a good sex life before their WS affair? I just don't get it.


Friend of a friends wife had a 2 year affair. She made a point of making her home sex life exciting. Thinking that if she did this he would not have a clue about her meeting OM in hotels once a week. Her poor husband was happy and did not have a clue until OMs wife caught them at the hotel and called him.


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## lordmayhem

Talker67 said:


> one problem with this website is it is populated by betrayed people, many of whom remain bitter about it. So when most of them tell you "for sure she has physically done this guy"...it actually is not certain at all. She could go on for years just holding hands and talking to this guy. A lot of people simply can not go over the line to physically cheat that way.


The "problem" you're talking about is not really a problem, but a benefit. Sure, there are some who may still be hurting from betrayal, but the benefit of the collective wisdom on this site far outweighs any problems. The betrayeds here have been through the process. I've been here almost 6 years and I'm almost 7 years from DD, these threads do not trigger me as much as those who have more recent DDays. In the 6 years I've been here, I've yet to see a single story that's similar to this, that didn't go PA. Is it possible that it didn't go PIV? Yes, but it is extremely unlikely because:

1. They work together, so OM is local. In cases where an EA didn't go PA is when the OM is out of the area (out of state or out of country). They had the opportunity. I remember one story where the OM was complaining that the WW wouldn't have sex with him in the elevator! Workplace affairs are usually PA in the parking lots, or closest place that they won't be disturbed. Dates are usually in the local area as well.

2. Length of the affair - supposedly dating for 6 months now. Emotional involvement almost always ends up with physical involvement. Holding hands in public at a restaurant? Seriously? That shows familiarity and intimacy with the other person.

PA is not an absolute certainty, but it's extremely low based on what I've read for 6 years here. This is a case of Trickle Truth, and the WS will not confess more unless there is proof, and then they only confess to what the BS can prove.













Talker67 said:


> She SHOULD have given you passwords to all her acconts, so go looking thru them.


Transparency is an absolute requirement for R, but at this stage, the texts will have been "sanitized" before he gets a look at them.


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## sokillme

lordmayhem said:


> The "problem" you're talking about is not really a problem, but a benefit. Sure, there are some who may still be hurting from betrayal, but the benefit of the collective wisdom on this site far outweighs any problems. The betrayeds here have been through the process. I've been here almost 6 years and I'm almost 7 years from DD, these threads do not trigger me as much as those who have more recent DDays. In the 6 years I've been here, I've yet to see a single story that's similar to this, that didn't go PA. Is it possible that it didn't go PIV? Yes, but it is extremely unlikely because:
> 
> 1. They work together, so OM is local. In cases where an EA didn't go PA is when the OM is out of the area (out of state or out of country). They had the opportunity. I remember one story where the OM was complaining that the WW wouldn't have sex with him in the elevator! Workplace affairs are usually PA in the parking lots, or closest place that they won't be disturbed. Dates are usually in the local area as well.
> 
> 2. Length of the affair - supposedly dating for 6 months now. Emotional involvement almost always ends up with physical involvement. Holding hands in public at a restaurant? Seriously? That shows familiarity and intimacy with the other person.
> 
> PA is not an absolute certainty, but it's extremely low based on what I've read for 6 years here. This is a case of Trickle Truth, and the WS will not confess more unless there is proof, and then they only confess to what the BS can prove.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Transparency is an absolute requirement for R, but at this stage, the texts will have been "sanitized" before he gets a look at them.


Yeah I read that "problem stuff" as "the problem with this website is they make it very hard to rug sweep".


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## OnTheRocks

lordmayhem said:


> The "problem" you're talking about is not really a problem, but a benefit. Sure, there are some who may still be hurting from betrayal, but the benefit of the collective wisdom on this site far outweighs any problems. The betrayeds here have been through the process. I've been here almost 6 years and I'm almost 7 years from DD, these threads do not trigger me as much as those who have more recent DDays. In the 6 years I've been here, I've yet to see a single story that's similar to this, that didn't go PA. Is it possible that it didn't go PIV? Yes, but it is extremely unlikely because:
> 
> 1. They work together, so OM is local. In cases where an EA didn't go PA is when the OM is out of the area (out of state or out of country). They had the opportunity. I remember one story where the OM was complaining that the WW wouldn't have sex with him in the elevator! Workplace affairs are usually PA in the parking lots, or closest place that they won't be disturbed. Dates are usually in the local area as well.
> 
> 2. Length of the affair - supposedly dating for 6 months now. Emotional involvement almost always ends up with physical involvement. Holding hands in public at a restaurant? Seriously? That shows familiarity and intimacy with the other person.
> 
> PA is not an absolute certainty, but it's extremely low based on what I've read for 6 years here. This is a case of Trickle Truth, and the WS will not confess more unless there is proof, and then they only confess to what the BS can prove.



Truth. I've been here a few months shy of you. I joined about a month before my DDay, and this forum helped me immensely with my journey. The typical advice here is hard to swallow for the recently betrayed, but it's generally dead on. It's insane how consistent the stories are over time.


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## cam42

I met with the OM's wife. She was nice, caring, pretty. If we weren't married I would of asked her out on a date haha, she made a remark about how she'd totally date me if she wasn't married (nice ego boost). Anyway she had all the texts emails and love letters printed out. She had a complete timeline of the whole affair, yes it was physical. The affair started as a flirtation and increased from there. She's an attorney and a pretty good one from what I've seen. The affair went on for 6 months and it started getting physical around month 3. There was no mention of them leaving their spouses, it seems as if they got off on the secrecy of the affair and thought their love was forbidden or some stupid ****. The meeting helped me more than I could ever imagine honestly, I was very thankful for it. She also expressed her appreciation for me telling her about it. We cried together cursed our spouses all of it. We talked for a few hours. The two officially have no contact and her husband already has interviews for different positions. My wife was blowing up my phone the whole time and I didn't respond. Told her I was going "out". It was nice to get all the facts.

Overall I feel better today but I'm sure I'll feel bad again tomorrow. She doesn't know if she wants to stay married yet and neither do I, both kind of in limbo. It was nice to have another woman tell me I'm attractive and didn't deserve the selfish bull**** between our idiot partners. My wife tickle truth the **** out of me and now I want to stay with her even less. If I ever get the chance I'm going to **** the other mans wife (if we both divorce) and I'm sure it'll be the best revenge **** ever. Sorry, I'm still filled with anger more than sadness. I love my wife still but I have decisions to make. She said she wants to fight for our marriage and is willing "to do anything." I've also ignored my wife since I got home, if she can't tell me the truth then whatever.

Any advice on what do I do next?


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## drifting on

lordmayhem said:


> The "problem" you're talking about is not really a problem, but a benefit. Sure, there are some who may still be hurting from betrayal, but the benefit of the collective wisdom on this site far outweighs any problems. The betrayeds here have been through the process. I've been here almost 6 years and I'm almost 7 years from DD, these threads do not trigger me as much as those who have more recent DDays. In the 6 years I've been here, I've yet to see a single story that's similar to this, that didn't go PA. Is it possible that it didn't go PIV? Yes, but it is extremely unlikely because:
> 
> 1. They work together, so OM is local. In cases where an EA didn't go PA is when the OM is out of the area (out of state or out of country). They had the opportunity. I remember one story where the OM was complaining that the WW wouldn't have sex with him in the elevator! Workplace affairs are usually PA in the parking lots, or closest place that they won't be disturbed. Dates are usually in the local area as well.
> 
> 2. Length of the affair - supposedly dating for 6 months now. Emotional involvement almost always ends up with physical involvement. Holding hands in public at a restaurant? Seriously? That shows familiarity and intimacy with the other person.
> 
> PA is not an absolute certainty, but it's extremely low based on what I've read for 6 years here. This is a case of Trickle Truth, and the WS will not confess more unless there is proof, and then they only confess to what the BS can prove.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Transparency is an absolute requirement for R, but at this stage, the texts will have been "sanitized" before he gets a look at them.




Quoted for truth cam42, @lordmayhem is spot on here. Transparency at this stage is very sanitized. In other words you will see very little of what actually was said between them. Your wife is in damage control, you found out, OM dumped her, she is gauging your reaction to stop you from fleeing and she have nobody with her. Sadistic as that sounds it is the mindset of your wife at this very moment. Your wife knows if you read the actual words she wrote you won't be her husband anymore. 

This is why I say you meet OM's BW, so you can have what you will need to make an informed decision. Even if you decide to reconcile, you will need to know what exactly you are actually forgiving. How do you forgive what you have no idea about? Cam42, you are very fresh into infidelity, and it's going to get so much worse for you. The pain you will feel is immense, your chest will feel crushed and that's a good day. You probably feel dead on the inside now, racing thoughts, no appetite, your heart beating out of its chest, and a pain that can hardly be described with words. We have been in your shoes, yet we all probably wish we could say different. 

For now just breathe, exhale and breathe again, no decision needs to be made today. Contact an attorney, know your rights, and check your laws to see if alienation of affection or similar is on the books. You can even file for divorce and retract if you decide to, which I hate to say I would. Also check for polygraph tests and costs in your area. Find an examiner with as much expierience as possible. If you decide on a polygraph tell her the night before the test, then tell her there are five questions, question one is, did you have sex with anyone other then me since our wedding? Let her stew about the rest, your true aim is to get a parking lot confession. If you get a parking lot confession, tell her she is still taking the exam and get out of the car. She will then admit to more, that I would bet the house on. 

I think every poster here is trying to help you even though you may feel overwhelmed. If you need to pm me feel free to do so and I will help in any way I can. Best of luck to you.


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## Lostinthought61

First and foremost the decision to stay married sit in your court not your wife's....her tactics is a ploy for you to beg her to stay...I call bull crap on that one...and if she says she is not sure then tell to leave immediately....but I would not rug sweep this at all....you need time to list demands if you want to stay married and she needs to accept it all...and I mean all....expose to her family as well.

I would also ask for a complete timeline from her and compare notes and tell her if she forget anything the marriage is over...


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## TRy

cam42 said:


> I confronted my wife when she got home (5 days ago). I asked for the full details of the affair but she cried and said it will just hurt me even more.





cam42 said:


> She's saying she won't text him anymore





cam42 said:


> She said she doesn't want a divorce but she's so confused and she does have strong feelings for the AP





cam42 said:


> he also broke contact with my wife yesterday. She said he was crying like a baby and begging her not to divorce.


 You first confronted your wife about her affair with the other man (OM) and affair partner (AP) 1 week ago (“5 days ago” + 2 days since you stated that). Yesterday the OM’s wife told you that the OM “broke contact with my wife yesterday” (the day before yesterday). This means that for 5 days after you first confronted your wife, that they were still in contact with each other, and that they had not ended the affair. It also means that when your wife promised you 1 week ago that “she won't text him anymore”, that she broke that promise and remained in contact with him for 5 additional days afterwards, and even then it was the OM that ended it and not her.

You wife admitted to you that she was “so confused and she does have strong feelings for the AP”. Thus it was only after the OM ended it with your wife as he was begging his wife not to divorce him, did you really have the option of perhaps having your wife commit to you again. This makes you officially your wife’s back-up plan now that the OM has tossed your wife under the bus. Imagine how different the situation would be if her AP happened to be single.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*

It is clear you are still entertaining notions of reconciliation.

That said, tell her she has one opportunity to lay out the truth to you. One time and one time only. Tell her nothing of what you know. Tell her if she withholds one piece of information, that you are definitely proceeding with divorce with zero chance for reconciliation.

Then sit quietly and say nothing. Let the silence fill the air. I promise it will be an uncomfortable one for her.

She should begin spilling her guts. If she lies, tell her she blew her one chance, then walk away. 

Once you have all the information, thank her for her honesty, then tell her you need a couple of days alone without her to collect your thoughts, without her pestering, etc.

End the trickle truth now.


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## cam42

TRy said:


> You first confronted your wife about her affair with the other man (OM) and affair partner (AP) 1 week ago (“5 days ago” + 2 days since you stated that). Yesterday the OM’s wife told you that the OM “broke contact with my wife yesterday” (the day before yesterday). This means that for 5 days after you first confronted your wife, that they were still in contact with each other, and that they had not ended the affair. It also means that when your wife promised you 1 week ago that “she won't text him anymore”, that she broke that promise and remained in contact with him for 5 additional days afterwards, and even then it was the OM that ended it and not her.
> 
> You wife admitted to you that she was “so confused and she does have strong feelings for the AP”. Thus it was only after the OM ended it with your wife as he was begging his wife not to divorce him, did you really have the option of perhaps having your wife commit to you again. This makes you officially your wife’s back-up plan now that the OM has tossed your wife under the bus. Imagine how different the situation would be if her AP happened to be single.


We also talked about that. Apparently when I confronted my wife and told his wife did they stop talking to each other but the other guy admitted they were speaking to each other at work. The OM had to write a letter of no contact to my wife and she also wrote one back(She asked me if she should). Now they aren't even interacting at work apparently and the other man is on his way to a different job very soon.


----------



## cam42

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



farsidejunky said:


> It is clear you are still entertaining notions of reconciliation.
> 
> That said, tell her she has one opportunity to lay out the truth to you. One time and one time only. Tell her nothing of what you know. Tell her if she withholds one piece of information, that you are definitely proceeding with divorce with zero chance for reconciliation.
> 
> Then sit quietly and say nothing. Let the silence fill the air. I promise it will be an uncomfortable one for her.
> 
> She should begin spilling her guts. If she lies, tell her she blew her one chance, then walk away.
> 
> Once you have all the information, thank her for her honesty, then tell her you need a couple of days alone without her to collect your thoughts, without her pestering, etc.
> 
> End the trickle truth now.


I think that's a perfect way to go about this. I will do just that. If she blows it sadly I think were over. This ****ing sucks so much.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*

I know, brother.

Nothing is more important right now than you getting all the information you need to make your decision.

However, do not bluff with your threat to divorce. Make sure you mean it. If she calls it, you word just went to crap. Never...Ever...Ever play brinkmanship unless you are willing to go over the brink.


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## GusPolinski

Trickle-truth is not indicative of remorse. Quite the opposite, actually.

You know what to do.


----------



## JohnA

Yea, get that bull about nailing his wife out of your head. Tell your wife you need space to heal. If she speaks about reconcilation advise her not now but you will watch her actions (transparency, behavior, reading material, etc) 

First while doing the 180 complete your plans for a divorce and post divorce life. Expose to both family's. Do not allow her to re-write the. Marriage history !! You have seen first hand the damage TT we warned you about. She has already rewritten your marriage history in her mind. Right now that rewritten history is the truth to her. It justifies the adultery. It allows her to say it was a mistake caused by you. 
If she does not get the rewritten history out of her head it will fester and provide addition resentment. Her resentment of you. YES YOU. To date she may have not written or verbalized these feelings but they are there. 

When your plans are complete then review them. Include her actions to see if there is a possibility of reconciliation. Then talk. 

The only reason to maintain contact with BW is to allow the both of you to monitor their behavior.


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## TRy

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



cam42 said:


> I think that's a perfect way to go about this. I will do just that. If she blows it sadly I think were over. This ****ing sucks so much.


 Do it now before your wife finds out that you met with the OM's wife.


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## farsidejunky

One other thing, Cam.

She is the one now saying she wants to save the marriage, right?

When she starts to blame shift, give her a puzzled look and ask her why she is so motivated to stay in a marriage that is so terrible that she had to sleep with another man to deal with it.

Do not allow her to blame shift.


----------



## drifting on

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



TRy said:


> Do it now before your wife finds out that you met with the OM's wife.




Or.......say nothing to your wife for five days, I'll bet the house again she confronts you about meeting OM's wife. Hmm golly gee whiz, how would she know you two met?? Sorry my sadistic side is beginning to emerge... You could also create a fake email, attach a page of texts, send it to you and your wife, then ask if her if it's true? Or buy a burner phone and text screenshots of some of the texts to both yours and your wife's phones, then send a text from the same burner phone saying you have more to share. Your wife will go running to OM, OM will call his wife, she'll deny it truthfully and then send more later on. Just an idea on how to get her disheveled and level the playing field in your favor. If you want to shake her even more let me know, I can pm some even better ways to you.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*

Forget what I said... Let @drifting on advise you.

His evil creativity in these situations is limitless...and an absolute asset.


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## Lostinthought61

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



cam42 said:


> I think that's a perfect way to go about this. I will do just that. If she blows it sadly I think were over. This ****ing sucks so much.


And while gone thinking tell her to call family tell them what is happening...


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## lordmayhem

cam42 said:


> I met with the OM's wife. She was nice, caring, pretty. If we weren't married I would of asked her out on a date haha, she made a remark about how she'd totally date me if she wasn't married (nice ego boost). Anyway she had all the texts emails and love letters printed out. She had a complete timeline of the whole affair, yes it was physical. The affair started as a flirtation and increased from there. She's an attorney and a pretty good one from what I've seen. The affair went on for 6 months and it started getting physical around month 3. There was no mention of them leaving their spouses, it seems as if they got off on the secrecy of the affair and thought their love was forbidden or some stupid ****. The meeting helped me more than I could ever imagine honestly, I was very thankful for it. She also expressed her appreciation for me telling her about it. We cried together cursed our spouses all of it. We talked for a few hours. The two officially have no contact and her husband already has interviews for different positions. My wife was blowing up my phone the whole time and I didn't respond. Told her I was going "out". It was nice to get all the facts.
> 
> Overall I feel better today but I'm sure I'll feel bad again tomorrow. She doesn't know if she wants to stay married yet and neither do I, both kind of in limbo. It was nice to have another woman tell me I'm attractive and didn't deserve the selfish bull**** between our idiot partners. My wife tickle truth the **** out of me and now I want to stay with her even less. If I ever get the chance I'm going to **** the other mans wife (if we both divorce) and I'm sure it'll be the best revenge **** ever. Sorry, I'm still filled with anger more than sadness. I love my wife still but I have decisions to make. She said she wants to fight for our marriage and is willing "to do anything." I've also ignored my wife since I got home, if she can't tell me the truth then whatever.
> 
> Any advice on what do I do next?


So you do know it was a PA when the OMW exposed it to you. You're not that far from D-Day, so you need to do the 180, not as a weapon, but for yourself to help you detach. Only then can you decide whether to attempt R, or pull the trigger on D. But one thing is for sure, NC can NEVER be maintained as long as they work together. Either she quits or OM quits. There is no other way if you're going to entertain ANY ideas of R. Its up to you. But at this point, she hasn't even given you full disclosure yet, you had to find that out from the OMW.


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## sokillme

cam42 said:


> I met with the OM's wife. She was nice, caring, pretty. If we weren't married I would of asked her out on a date haha, she made a remark about how she'd totally date me if she wasn't married (nice ego boost). Anyway she had all the texts emails and love letters printed out. She had a complete timeline of the whole affair, yes it was physical. The affair started as a flirtation and increased from there. She's an attorney and a pretty good one from what I've seen. The affair went on for 6 months and it started getting physical around month 3. There was no mention of them leaving their spouses, it seems as if they got off on the secrecy of the affair and thought their love was forbidden or some stupid ****. The meeting helped me more than I could ever imagine honestly, I was very thankful for it. She also expressed her appreciation for me telling her about it. We cried together cursed our spouses all of it. We talked for a few hours. The two officially have no contact and her husband already has interviews for different positions. My wife was blowing up my phone the whole time and I didn't respond. Told her I was going "out". It was nice to get all the facts.
> 
> Overall I feel better today but I'm sure I'll feel bad again tomorrow. She doesn't know if she wants to stay married yet and neither do I, both kind of in limbo. It was nice to have another woman tell me I'm attractive and didn't deserve the selfish bull**** between our idiot partners. My wife tickle truth the **** out of me and now I want to stay with her even less. If I ever get the chance I'm going to **** the other mans wife (if we both divorce) and I'm sure it'll be the best revenge **** ever. Sorry, I'm still filled with anger more than sadness. I love my wife still but I have decisions to make. She said she wants to fight for our marriage and is willing "to do anything." I've also ignored my wife since I got home, if she can't tell me the truth then whatever.
> 
> Any advice on what do I do next?


You may love your wife but you can do better. Now she wants to give your marriage a chance? The only reason you want to stay together is because of the bond. Wait, let the bond dies and it will either way, and you will be thinking clearly and you will see what a raw deal you are getting. She wants to stay together because the lifestyle you have built. She may say she still loves you but what did her actions show you about that love. The thing probably only slowed down because the other man's wife found out. 

You're only 42 years old, that is a lot of life to live with someone who stabbed you in you heart. 

Also if you stick around be prepared for years of pain and suffering. If you move on it takes about a year or two. Some who stick around never really get over it. Just some things to think about that no one will tell you but you can see it if you read the boards. And I suggest you read the boards. They will give you a good idea of what people are feeling in R, and after D. It is harder to heal waking up to the person who triggers you every day. 

Also remember if you R you R with the woman who cheated on you for 6 months, not the woman you were married to that women doesn't exist. 

Finally this may not be her first rodeo, people who do this kid of stuff usually have poor boundaries and they don't just creep in. I would talk to the friend who tipped you off too. I bet she will tell you a lot more about your wife that you don't know. Again I think she tipped you off because she knew a a lot of what was going on and couldn't take it anymore. 

I know you want someone to give you hope, but your hope may not be found in a woman who could lie to your face, the father of her children for 6 months. And then turn on a dime when her circumstances changed. 

There is hope, but maybe not with her.

One more thing read your first post again. Look how she took your devotion to her an used it to take advantage of you. You are going to need to remember that because she is going to be trying to do the same thing again, now with trying to get you to rug-sweep this. 

I suggest you kill the devotion, she doesn't deserve it.


----------



## Satya

Cam, if future circumstances allowed you to date the OM's wife, and you're both unhinged at that point, then date her. Have sex with her. But (and I get you're in rage mode right now) don't even joke about calling it a "revenge f**k." Considering what she's done for you, that's amazingly disrespectful to her and to your mission. 

Posters here no doubt are going to tell me to cut you slack, but this whole thing is going to go down based on where your head is always at and how you play your cards. Just keep that in mind, please.


----------



## MattMatt

cam42 said:


> I met with the OM's wife. She was nice, caring, pretty. If we weren't married I would of asked her out on a date haha, she made a remark about how she'd totally date me if she wasn't married (nice ego boost). Anyway she had all the texts emails and love letters printed out. She had a complete timeline of the whole affair, yes it was physical. The affair started as a flirtation and increased from there. She's an attorney and a pretty good one from what I've seen. The affair went on for 6 months and it started getting physical around month 3. There was no mention of them leaving their spouses, it seems as if they got off on the secrecy of the affair and thought their love was forbidden or some stupid ****. The meeting helped me more than I could ever imagine honestly, I was very thankful for it. She also expressed her appreciation for me telling her about it. We cried together cursed our spouses all of it. We talked for a few hours. The two officially have no contact and her husband already has interviews for different positions. My wife was blowing up my phone the whole time and I didn't respond. Told her I was going "out". It was nice to get all the facts.
> 
> Overall I feel better today but I'm sure I'll feel bad again tomorrow. She doesn't know if she wants to stay married yet and neither do I, both kind of in limbo. It was nice to have another woman tell me I'm attractive and didn't deserve the selfish bull**** between our idiot partners. My wife tickle truth the **** out of me and now I want to stay with her even less. If I ever get the chance I'm going to **** the other mans wife (if we both divorce) and I'm sure it'll be the best revenge **** ever. Sorry, I'm still filled with anger more than sadness. I love my wife still but I have decisions to make. She said she wants to fight for our marriage and is willing "to do anything." I've also ignored my wife since I got home, if she can't tell me the truth then whatever.
> 
> Any advice on what do I do next?


The sad truth that cheaters cannot grasp is that Rocky and Bulwinkle were only cartoon characters and that the Wayback machine doesn't exist and that the WS cannot travel back through time to stop themselves from cheating.


----------



## Grapes

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



drifting on said:


> Or.......say nothing to your wife for five days, I'll bet the house again she confronts you about meeting OM's wife. Hmm golly gee whiz, how would she know you two met?? Sorry my sadistic side is beginning to emerge... You could also create a fake email, attach a page of texts, send it to you and your wife, then ask if her if it's true? Or buy a burner phone and text screenshots of some of the texts to both yours and your wife's phones, then send a text from the same burner phone saying you have more to share. Your wife will go running to OM, OM will call his wife, she'll deny it truthfully and then send more later on. Just an idea on how to get her disheveled and level the playing field in your favor. If you want to shake her even more let me know, I can pm some even better ways to you.


I like this. Not only because its evil, great, and what she deserves but also has an element of a test. You will know if she talks to OM. Decision becomes very easy. You can even use that moment the texts come in to make her write out a timeline on the spot for comparison to what you know.


----------



## RWB

sokillme said:


> *Finally this may not be her first rodeo, people who do this kid of stuff usually have poor boundaries *and they don't just creep in. I would talk to the friend who tipped you off too. I bet she will tell you a lot more about your wife that you don't know. Again I think she tipped you off because she knew a a lot of what was going on and couldn't take it anymore.


Exactly what I was thinking... Rarely is the affair that's caught, the first encountered.

When I caught my WW in a short EAPA with her college BF, she pleaded for mercy, explained how she got screwed up in the head and *made a one-time mistake.*.. Right?

She had been serially cheating on me for years.


----------



## eric1

Her and her boyfriend will be coordinating stories at work, so if you're going to confront and look for holes in the story, now is the time to do it.

The first time a wayward goes to contact her boyfriend and is like "oh my god I must abide by the no contact letter!" will be the first. She's been lying all along, it just gives her something else to lie about.

It's not 100% she's lying, but the only way you'll find out is an in-depth interrogation (write / record EVERYTHING - remember it's not a court of law, this is YOUR call), a polygraph and an open everything (social media/email/passwords) policy. If you pause now then you're removing one of the only three things at your disposal (really the only one if you assume a polygraph isn't 100% and they can still communicate at work without electronic assistance)


----------



## GusPolinski

RWB said:


> Exactly what I was thinking... Rarely is the affair that's caught, the first encountered.
> 
> When I caught my WW in a short EAPA with her college BF, she pleaded for mercy, explained how *she got screwed up in the head and made a one-time mistake.*.. Right?
> 
> She had been serially cheating on me for years.


Turns out she was referring to getting caught.


----------



## drifting on

Cam42

I apologize as this post may seem callous, but in reality I feel your pain and know exactly where you are standing. If you read this information given to you by the OM's BW you will firmly want to divorce. Your wife has lied on too many levels, the more you read the more you will resent and despise your wife. With them still working together the affair is still active. Unfortunately for you, the time to decide is now.

If you want to divorce, keep in mind you want her employed. If you choose reconciliation, you must threaten to expose AND distribute copies of your evidence to all family and friends. Your wife will not want this to get out, it will also clear out any fog that is remaining. If you do choose to reconcile, the only exposure I would do is to both your parents. I say this because family will stick by their respective son or daughter. None will be happy but always remember blood is thicker then water. 

If you want to reconcile this is a must to eliminate any further contact. Expose to the employer, demand that they have no interaction, demand that they take action or you will consider a lawsuit. Just by announcing a lawsuit will put the company on edge. If one was the others supervisor you will have even more ground. Also file for divorce listing adultery and OM's name as the reason why. This could benefit you that your wife is not capable of making sound decisions that have positive repercussions to the family. 

Personally, your wife blowing up your phone would have provoked my sadistic side, especially if you have asked for space. But I suspect she blew up your phone for one simple reason, OM told her you were meeting his wife. I would say you pretty much know they are still in contact. If you need time, tell your wife to take an emergency leave from work effective immediately. Contact must stop here and even though you say it's confirmed that it has stopped, I would say differently.


----------



## BetrayedDad

cam42 said:


> For my own sanity I know she was bull****ting me and *I know she's been ****ing this guy*. *I don't want a divorce and I feel like a fool for that*. This is my wife the mother of my kids, *the woman who's been my best friend*. I'm angry, so ****ing angry. *I'm going to give her one more chance *to come clean about the whole affair, I also know of a night in particular where I'm sure she met up with him somewhere. *How am I going to get passed the fact that my wife was being physical with this *******? *I need to be emotionally stronger here. I told the other man's wife. I feel so emotionally frustrated and sick **** *I still love her *and *she said she still loves me*. *My wife had a ****ing boyfriend*.


I can tell you exactly why she did this to you just based on your comments in case you are wondering.... She has no respect for you.

She KNOWS you are WEAK and CODEPENDENT and she KNEW you would swallow every bite of her home wrecking bvllsh!t sandwich.

If you can not see this is a slam dunk, file for divorce on this traitorous POS sloot of a wife immediately, situation then no one can help you.

She has no remorse, she's still lying to you and she banged another dude then smiled in your face. What it's going to take friend to wake your a$$ up?

This relationship is dead. SHE KILLED it, not you. Don't feel bad about rejecting her. As far as you are concerned, you're giving her what she wants.


----------



## Lostinthought61

any chance that the OM wife a divorce attorney? if she was and you decided to go down that track...talk about someone invested in your well being.


----------



## Danny4133

BetrayedDad said:


> cam42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For my own sanity I know she was bull****ting me and *I know she's been ****ing this guy*. *I don't want a divorce and I feel like a fool for that*. This is my wife the mother of my kids, *the woman who's been my best friend*. I'm angry, so ****ing angry. *I'm going to give her one more chance *to come clean about the whole affair, I also know of a night in particular where I'm sure she met up with him somewhere. *How am I going to get passed the fact that my wife was being physical with this *******? *I need to be emotionally stronger here. I told the other man's wife. I feel so emotionally frustrated and sick **** *I still love her *and *she said she still loves me*. *My wife had a ****ing boyfriend*.
> 
> 
> 
> I can tell you exactly why she did this to you just based on your comments in case you are wondering.... She has no respect for you.
> 
> She KNOWS you are WEAK and CODEPENDENT and she KNEW you would take swallow her home wrecking bvllsh!t sandwich.
> 
> If you can not see this is a slam dunk, file for divorce on this traitorous POS sloot of a wife immediately then no one can help you.
> 
> She has no remorse, she still lying to you, she banged another dude then smiled in your face. What it's going to take friend to wake your a$$ up?
> 
> This relationship is dead. SHE KILLED it, not you. Don't feel bad about rejecting her. As far as you are concerned, you're giving her what she wants.
Click to expand...

BD is on the money here, my wayward never expected me to file as I'm roman Catholic and it's not me. I did just that fast with no regrets. That was shock and awe to her with tears the lot. 
The game of manipulation was over at that point.

How could he do this to me, me me me, all it was. That was the day I regained control.


----------



## Graywolf2

First off you love who you* thought *your wife was. You want that woman and the marriage you *thought* you had back. Who wouldn't?

The problem is that it’s like an alien took over your wife’s body. Do you want that woman?



drifting on said:


> Cam42
> If you want to divorce, keep in mind you want her employed. If you choose reconciliation, you must threaten to expose AND distribute copies of your evidence to all family and friends. Your wife will not want this to get out, it will also clear out any fog that is remaining.


I agree. But if you want to divorce do *NOT* expose. Keep that as an ace in the hole during divorce proceedings. Don’t say it overtly because that’s blackmail. Just use it as a motivator for her to keep you happy. A good divorce settlement will keep you happy. An unhappy husband might spill the beans. You can always expose after the divorce is final.

I always recommend to at least file for divorce. It can always be stopped. If you offer R too quickly or effortlessly then it sends a signal that what they did wasn’t so bad after all. If you're a good stable family man it can work against you. They think that at the end of the day you will calm down and never divorce them. If they thought about getting caught this gave them comfort during the affair. You need to prove them wrong by taking them to the edge of the cliff and making them look over.

Discuss the terms with her and let her get a good look at what divorce looks like.


----------



## Spicy

I have read this thread with such pain in my heart for you and for your three children. This is such shocking news, and has been thrown to you at nearly light speed level. I understand the posters here have tremendous experience, and have been through this already. That being said, I do believe every situation is different, and not all have to be dealt with exactly the same. 

In the span of a week you found out your wife was dating, then you met the other mans wife (a huge thing in itself), found out from her that your wife was of course lying and it was a full blown physical affair. You have six little eyes watching you and mommy, trying to figure out what the heck is going on. You are trying to keep it together to be strong for them. Now, a lot of pressure from an online community to make swift decisions.

If this was me, I would need some space. I would need a breather to process all of this without having to look at or hear from her [email protected] ass. I think she should leave the home, and let you have some time to think. I think you should disclose the affair to her parents and then she should go stay with them or one of her lousy girlfriends that were covering for her. I don't think you should AT ALL leave the marital home or bed. She needs to be the one to leave. It's the least she can do. I would have no contact with her during the time period YOU deem necessary to process all of this, even if it takes you a very, very long time.

Though unlikely, there are situations where good people get caught up in a love affair at work. They can repent and turn around, and a marriage can be saved if that is what both parties want. Even if they got caught. People DO make huge mistakes, and spouses DO opt to forgive, and I have known of many to live successful married lives after that. IF this happens, you do have to know that it may always nag you for the rest of your life. You will also need counseling, both marital and spiritual, if you are religious people. And TIME, lots of time to make the decision to recommit to each other.

So I guess what I am saying is, that I agree with the 180, filing etc. I also agree with the idea of taking a moment to get your footing back under you. You already know she cheated. Whatever lie weaving may go on now doesn't matter. She's and adulterer. Plain and simple. You now have to decide what you, the innocent party wants to do next. You also have your three children to consider. That's a big piece of the puzzle no one is addressing thus far. We as parents all know what a HUGE factor staying together for kids ends up being, right or wrong...

Take this time to bond ever closer with your children, your parents, siblings and quality friends. Focus on your health, continue your work outs, eat great, sleep well. Do not get involved with the other mans wife, or any other women. A revenge romp won't do anyone any good. Focus on family, health and faith. Build yourself up strong. These things will all help you to make a better informed, wise decision. Rarely does a great decision come from a knee jerk reaction. Time is on your side. You hold all the cards my sweet friend. Take the time to decide the best way to play them. I wish you calm of heart and peace as soon as possible. Hugs from me to you and your babies. We here at TAM want to continue to support you through all of this sweetheart.


----------



## ReidWright

RWB said:


> Exactly what I was thinking... Rarely is the affair that's caught, the first encountered.
> 
> When I caught my WW in a short EAPA with her college BF, she pleaded for mercy, explained how she got screwed up in the head and *made a one-time mistake.*.. Right?
> 
> She had been serially cheating on me for years.


Yah, his wife was pretty bold holding hands with her boyfriend in a public place near her social circle! 
That comes from complacency; that was normal behavior for her.


----------



## Graywolf2

cam42 said:


> There was no mention of them leaving their spouses, it seems as if they got off on the secrecy of the affair and thought their love was forbidden or some stupid ****.


Some people value the relationship much more than sexual faithfulness. Men tend to care about the sex more and women tend to care more if “I love you” was exchanged but there are exceptions. 

Once it all starts to settle in you may hear “but I never intended to leave you” like it’s a big deal. If they value the relationship much more sex then in their mind they were remaining faithful in the things that matter. It was only sex after all. They were never going to break up the family which is what you will be doing if you get a divorce. You will be the bad guy. 
What you need to come back with is sure she never intended to leave you. She had you for security, stability and all the boring husband stuff and a boyfriend on the side. Why in the world would she want to leave you? Why should she get credit for that?


----------



## TDSC60

She had to know that this would rip the heart out of you if you found out and she did it anyway. That should tell you all you need to know. I am firmly in the camp that if a WW is truly in love with her husband she would not, could not, have an affair.

She did this for one reason only - she wanted to **** the OM. You and the family DID NOT MATTER TO HER. All that mattered is her time with him. 

She is sorry she got caught because now she has to stop the affair or take it underground. She is still selfishly thinking about herself only. If she is declaring she will do anything to save the marriage, that too is all about her, not you and the kids. The marriage you thought you had was her safe haven where she could rest up for her next encounter with her lover. You are Plan B. What she is now willing to settle for since she got caught and she knows you will be watching like a hawk.

And think about that. Can you ever trust her again? Do you want to play detective trying to catch her in the next affair for the rest of your life? Or is it better to dump her cheating azz and move on? She has clearly shown what she is capable of doing. Look at her actions, not her words.


----------



## Mizzbak

Hello Cam

As always, @Spicy 's words are cooling balm to an angry heart.

Yes, this sucks. I am so sorry that you are here. I have been watching your thread for a little while now; and my heart hurts for you and your children. Living in the same house and trying to responsibly parent children with someone who had betrayed me was one of the hardest things I have ever done. I can tell you this – you’re going to be OK. Someday you’ll be able to think of your wife and not feel this horrendous emotional c0cktail of rage, hurt, love, sorrow, disbelief… (8 months in and I’m not there yet. But I am better than I could have imagined 8 months ago.) 

I got a lot of advice on TAM – some of it was directly useful and some of it simply served to crystallize my own thoughts. I have summarized the 3 things that I think I would have found most helpful at the same point where you are now: 

*1. Choose your actions carefully.*
Your wife has hurt you in a despicable, shameful, cowardly way. But do not let your pain (or some of the more extreme posters here) goad you into being someone you are not. Some of the advice that you are being given concerns me greatly. (If only for the place of sheer venom and rage from which it clearly comes.) Your wife is the mother of your children, she will be in your life (in one way or another) indefinitely. Do what you need to do, having carefully considered the consequences of your actions. Ensure that your motives are about protecting your family and your own healing. In my opinion, trying to get revenge on your wife by hurting, humiliating or manipulating her is not constructive or in the best interests of your children. 

*2. You don’t have to decide on the future of your marriage right now. * 
I strongly recommend that you don't try and decide right now what your permanent position should be. 

In the first few months after D-Day, my marriage felt like a long, deep, dark canyon with only one exit looming immediately. Leave now or be stuck in this … forever. My key realization was that I could actually walk away at any point in the future if I was unable to get over what my husband had done. I chose to pursue reconciliation because of my specific circumstances and my husband’s demonstrated remorse and willingness to commit whatever he had to. In different circumstances, I would have chosen differently. I know now that I didn’t have enough emotional stability and objectivity right after D-Day to make any long-term decision until the dust had settled. 

In the future, you may choose to try and reconcile with your wife. You may choose to divorce. Each of these is a valid choice. Each of these is a painful choice. You will find advocates for both here on TAM, but none of them knows you, or your wife. There is much that must be weighed and many emotions that have to be worked through. 

*3. You should be working on your own healing right now.*
Coming to terms with what your wife did to you and your family is going to take a while. You need support – both professional (therapy) and personal (friends or family). Go out and get it. Until I started talking to someone, I just bottled everything up and couldn’t decide between menu items, let alone what I should do next in my marriage. 

Finally, the 180 is not about convincing your wife that you don’t give a sh1t. It is about YOU coming to realize that you don’t NEED her to be happy. After that, you can choose whether you WANT her in your life or just on the outskirts. And that is having true power in this awful situation.


----------



## TDSC60

Xenote said:


> any chance that the OM wife a divorce attorney? if she was and you decided to go down that track...talk about someone invested in your well being.


I like the way you think, but talk about a conflict of interest.


----------



## drifting on

Spicy said:


> I have read this thread with such pain in my heart for you and for your three children. This is such shocking news, and has been thrown to you at nearly light speed level. I understand the posters here have tremendous experience, and have been through this already. That being said, I do believe every situation is different, and not all have to be dealt with exactly the same.
> 
> In the span of a week you found out your wife was dating, then you met the other mans wife (a huge thing in itself), found out from her that your wife was of course lying and it was a full blown physical affair. You have six little eyes watching you and mommy, trying to figure out what the heck is going on. You are trying to keep it together to be strong for them. Now, a lot of pressure from an online community to make swift decisions.
> 
> If this was me, I would need some space. I would need a breather to process all of this without having to look at or hear from her [email protected] ass. I think she should leave the home, and let you have some time to think. I think you should disclose the affair to her parents and then she should go stay with them or one of her lousy girlfriends that were covering for her. I don't think you should AT ALL leave the marital home or bed. She needs to be the one to leave. It's the least she can do. I would have no contact with her during the time period YOU deem necessary to process all of this, even if it takes you a very, very long time.
> 
> Though unlikely, there are situations where good people get caught up in a love affair at work. They can repent and turn around, and a marriage can be saved if that is what both parties want. Even if they got caught. People DO make huge mistakes, and spouses DO opt to forgive, and I have known of many to live successful married lives after that. IF this happens, you do have to know that it may always nag you for the rest of your life. You will also need counseling, both marital and spiritual, if you are religious people. And TIME, lots of time to make the decision to recommit to each other.
> 
> So I guess what I am saying is, that I agree with the 180, filing etc. I also agree with the idea of taking a moment to get your footing back under you. You already know she cheated. Whatever lie weaving may go on now doesn't matter. She's and adulterer. Plain and simple. You now have to decide what you, the innocent party wants to do next. You also have your three children to consider. That's a big piece of the puzzle no one is addressing thus far. We as parents all know what a HUGE factor staying together for kids ends up being, right or wrong...
> 
> Take this time to bond ever closer with your children, your parents, siblings and quality friends. Focus on your health, continue your work outs, eat great, sleep well. Do not get involved with the other mans wife, or any other women. A revenge romp won't do anyone any good. Focus on family, health and faith. Build yourself up strong. These things will all help you to make a better informed, wise decision. Rarely does a great decision come from a knee jerk reaction. Time is on your side. You hold all the cards my sweet friend. Take the time to decide the best way to play them. I wish you calm of heart and peace as soon as possible. Hugs from me to you and your babies. We here at TAM want to continue to support you through all of this sweetheart.




Great post, the calm in the storm. QFT


----------



## BetrayedDad

Danny4133 said:


> The game of manipulation was over at that point.
> 
> How could he do this to me, me me me, all it was. That was the day I regained control.


Well done sir.....










Well done!


----------



## TDSC60

It all comes down to Cam's character. Cam, can you forgive her for having sex with another man while lying about it even after you uncovered what you thought was an EA only?
Can you over look her telling you she had "feelings" for OM and acting on those "feelings"?

I am not a proponent of staying together for the kids. It is better for them to be raised in a loving environment (even if in separate houses) than it is to be raised by parents who have nothing but anger and resentment for each other.


----------



## Evinrude58

When he finds out the truth, there's no way he's going to be able to stay with this woman. After all, she never had a moment when she wanted to stop the affair, she just got CAUGHT. Now she is REGRETTING getting caught. There's no remorse here, the affair is ongoing (maybe just mentally since the OM is busted), and he's been trickle truthed horribly. OP's wife is just a typical remorseless cheater who got caught, and the info he's getting from OM's wife is going to be soul-crushing. 

I just hope you have righteous anger and not crushing sadness and depression when you see the truth. The anger will help you, the other will set you back into a world of hurt.

Get angry, Cam. ANGRY. And TAKE ACTION.


----------



## ulyssesheart

TDSC60 said:


> I like the way you think, but talk about a *conflict of interest.*


That is the common and legal definition of conflict of interest. She would be a biased Attorney. An attorney for both, though representing opposite sides.

In reality, there is no conflict of interest between the two BS's. It would be *a collusion of interests*. a confluence of interests, a connivance of interests, a conspiracy of interests

A collaboration of interests. 

Two righteous Broad Swords slamming into and clashing against flailing Lightweight Epees.


----------



## MattMatt

You know, thinking about it, it might well be the lies that would be a potential deal breaker for me in this type of situation.

How could a person lie to the one who should be the love of their lives?


----------



## Lostinthought61

TDSC60 said:


> I like the way you think, but talk about a conflict of interest.


I know...but don't you love sweet justice....sometimes


----------



## ulyssesheart

MattMatt said:


> You know, thinking about it, it might well be the lies that would be a potential deal breaker for me in this type of situation.
> 
> How could a person lie to the one who should be the love of their lives?


And lie with a smile.
And lie with a duty romp.
And lie with a dog.
And do it for six months.
And do it in public.
And* flaunt* it for all to *witness.*

If Cam had a copper penny for each flaunt and a pound of iron for each eye-witness, he could easily cast a good size Liberty Bell. 
Actually, it has been cast in Hell's furnace. Once cool, Cam should ring it in the local forest. And ring it every night at midnight, for six months.
And the Bell with tone: Be Free, Bee Free, Oh Cam-ree-On-ward


----------



## badmemory

cam42 said:


> She said she wants to fight for our marriage and is *willing "to do anything."
> *
> Any advice on what do I do next?


Take your own sweet time while you put that statement to the test. 

Tell her OK; you'll give her one chance to tell you the truth about what happened. If she continues to lie, tell her you happen to know that's not true (don't tell her how you know) and then stop talking to her. Contact an attorney, start the divorce process, and put together your exit plan. If she doesn't fess up; complete your D and don't look back.

If she does tell you the truth; promise her nothing. She needs to understand what it feels like to lose her husband for cheating. That will take a few weeks to completely sink in. Tell her you need time to decide. The next few weeks will give you the chance to test her remorse. 

Implement the 180; don't get emotional in front of her; don't lash out at her; don't have sex with her; separate her from your bedroom. See if she is willing to own what she did and accept all consequences. That would include transparency, acceptance of exposure, new boundaries, and convincing remorse.

After a few weeks have passed; then make your decision to R or D. If you decide to R, she needs to quit that job if the OM hasn't found another one within that time frame. That would be non-negotiable.

If you give her a second chance; make sure she earns it.


----------



## TXDude

She is lying!!! This is a PA, full blown PA. There is no way they are not screwing. She is screwing this dude, I'm sure 100%.


----------



## lordmayhem

TXDude said:


> She is lying!!! This is a PA, full blown PA. There is no way they are not screwing. She is screwing this dude, I'm sure 100%.


The OMW already exposed the affair as a PA.


----------



## lordmayhem

Graywolf2 said:


> Once it all starts to settle in you may hear “but I never intended to leave you” like it’s a big deal. If they value the relationship much more sex then in their mind they were remaining faithful in the things that matter. It was only sex after all. They were never going to break up the family which is what you will be doing if you get a divorce. You will be the bad guy.
> What you need to come back with is sure she never intended to leave you. She had you for security, stability and all the boring husband stuff and a boyfriend on the side. Why in the world would she want to leave you? Why should she get credit for that?


Agreed.

I hate cake eaters.


----------



## Evinrude58

I will bet next months salary that if OP sees the texts and full communication with the OM, the cheating wife will be found making disparaging remarks about the OP. That should/will be enlightening for Cam to read. He will see what she REALLY thinks about him and how much she REALLY values him.
That will be the straw that breaks the camel's back, most likely.
I'll bet if the cheating wife knows that the OMW is giving the texts/emails to Cam, she is literally shaking in her boots.


----------



## sokillme

TDSC60 said:


> It all comes down to Cam's character. Cam, can you forgive her for having sex with another man while lying about it even after you uncovered what you thought was an EA only?
> Can you over look her telling you she had "feelings" for OM and acting on those "feelings"?
> 
> I am not a proponent of staying together for the kids. It is better for them to be raised in a loving environment (even if in separate houses) than it is to be raised by parents who have nothing but anger and resentment for each other.


Even if you can forgive her do you think you can do better? In the end, will you feel like you are settling? Lots of BS, learn to forgive their spouses but grow to hate their circumstances after the pain is gone. Many then just fall out of love with their spouses and see them as broken people, people who didn't live up to their promises and who robbed them of the kind of relationship they wanted in life, plan B so to speak. Some stay for convenience some move on, but that is a lot of time wasted. 

You can see many posts about this after a few years of R. Sometimes I think the R is really about the BS trying to win back their WS because of the blow it is to have them pick someone else. Once they know they got them they truly see what they have, and they don't want them anymore. 

You need to think of all these things because time is the one thing that you will never get back. Forgiveness (which I advocate) is not enough, you have to live with and share your life with them. It's hard to do that if you don't respect them.


----------



## TXDude

Oops My bad, didn't read all the thread just the opening post. 

Cam, 

So sorry to hear what has happened to your marriage. Everyone here knows your pain. You did awesome with how you handled the situation. So glad the OBS was able to collect all the evidence for you. That is the best way and stopping the affair, exposing it to the OBS. 

So what are you wanting to do now? IMO don't make any decision quickly. It took me 11 months of living in hell to decide that D is what I wanted.


----------



## Wolf1974

cam42 said:


> I'm not sure if the wife knows I'm meeting her. I'm barely talking to her at all and don't really answer her texts. She came to sit on the bed with me yesterday while I was laying down and kept asking me if I wanted any "stimulation" and that she's so sorry and will do whatever she can to make it right. We had an active sex life before d-day so it was hard. I told her I don't want her mouth anywhere near my junk until she gets tested for stds.
> 
> She said she will tommorrow while crying. I hate seeing her cry but I knew I couldn't comfort her. I'm meeting with the other woman tonight and she's bringing me everything and the full story. I don't know if I want to divorce yet as this is very raw. I don't like being at home anymore because my wife does whatever she can to be in the same room with me and apologize. Someone suggested a ONS with the other mans wife and I couldn't help but laugh a little bit. At the moment I'd have sex with her over my wife but wouldn't go through with that.
> 
> Did anyone here have a *good sex life before their WS affair*? I just don't get it.


Yep great sex life and great marriage. The crowd of "only bad marriages produce affairs" have no clue as you are discovering. Sorry you are here, sorry you are in pain. What you need to do now is start the process of moving forward with your life. Many of us have great success stories of leaving bad spouses .


----------



## Relationship Teacher

cam42 said:


> Hi I'm Cameron or you can call me Cam whatever you prefer. I'm 42 years old and have three kids two dogs and a faithful loyal wife, HA. Tried to make a joke I guess but on to the story, I'm actually really hurting.
> 
> So basically my wife and I have been together since we were 20 and we got married 24. Our marriage has been pretty good so far, we barely argued had an active sex life and have great kids. Neither of us smoke, neither of us are alcoholics and both of us are physically fit/healthy. Our intimacy and sex life has dwindled for the last few years I attribute that to stress from our jobs, us getting older and marriage being more routine. Basically were both at fault for that part, our communication should have been better. Our bedroom certainly wasn't dead but the intimacy wasn't like when we were newlyweds. I blame our communication for that too.


Communication is certainly a big part of that, however, I'd say that shifting priorities are often to blame.



> On to the story, so my wife 41 female, has been having an "emotional affair" with her co-worker who is also married. A week ago a mutual friend spotted my wife and this dude out on a date basically and texted me about it. The mutual friend is actually more of her friend and is also female, it was a fairly nice restaurant and it looked pretty weird to her to see my wife who is married out with this man. She also noted that they were holding hands, how ****ing cute. She told me and I confronted my wife when she got home (5 days ago). I asked for the full details of the affair but she cried and said it will just hurt me even more.


Disclosure takes a long time and you are one of the few that didn't get outright denial.


> Basically she has been having an emotional/sexting affair with this co worker for 6 months. I would of never suspected her having an affair, but she was certainly texting her girlfriends a lot and laughing. She's apart of a group chat with her friends so I was naive as hell. I was devastated when she admitted it she also didn't admit it right away. She told me we felt more like roommates than lovers and this jackass just made her feel so special inside (probably literally) as well. Throughout her affair she wasn't cold or that distant to me, she was still very loving and affectionate towards me and we still had sex. You're telling me this ******* is wining and dining my wife and he's not getting any? Yeah right.


It is plausible, but you do need more information.




> The wife was the most kindest, sweetest, loyal person who I thought adored me and I did her. All our friends think we have one of the best marriages out of all of them. Wife is swearing up and down nothing happened between them, she is what I read tickle truthing me. She didn't even admit to the sexting until I pushed for it. I'm incredibly angry with her and have been sleeping in separate beds, when I look at her I feel physically sick. I've been as cold as ice towards her and the kids have started to take notice. I also broke down and said how could you ****ing do this to me? I shouldn't have done this but I was in so much shock and still am, I cry in private now though. She also flipped out on me when I called her a cheating *****, I've never called her a ***** ***** **** **** ever. She said "See you don't give a **** about me anymore you ****ing ****". Coming from the cheating partner oh the irony.


Individuals fear justice and reciprocity, is this a surprise to no one?

That said, regardless of what she has done, you are still responsible for your actions. Externalized negativity is still "bad", even if she did something first. Is it understandable that you are angry and feeling all that you feel? Of course it is. What has to happen is for the relationship to go on the path of reconciliation or dissolution. Normally, couples are in limbo at first which does no good.




> I have read about 180s and trying to make it look like I don't care and that's what I've been doing so far. Does anyone have experience with this? She said she doesn't want a divorce but she's so confused and she does have strong feelings for the AP. I have alerted his wife by the way. She's saying she won't text him anymore and I think she needs to quit her job. Also I very doubt their affair was just emotional. She's also saying she doesn't want a divorce. I'm absolutely devastated and am trying hard to hide it, I've also been going hard at the gym. No one knows except her friend and me and other mans wife.


You are trying to rush things and using "the 180" to make it look like you don't care is maladaptive. There is a resolution to this matter that is to be had and you both deserve it.




> Should I divorce? (she said she doesn't want one) Should I reconcile? Over the past 5 days she's seemed remorseful and not at the same time, if that makes sense? This is a woman who was so proud of our relationship and what we have built together, it's now all just destroyed. She told me she's sorry that she did this and she's sorry that I don't believe that it's not just emotional. I've lost my appetite and don't know what to do anymore, please help.


Never make long-term decisions in the heat of the emotion. You have the same ability to choose yay or nay after things calm down. You are experiencing some acute symptoms of depression, which should be of your main focus.



> Also a friend of mine knows, I asked him for help on what I should do and he redirected me here and told me all about the 180 and not to make the same mistakes he made.


Ultimately, your relationship needs mature solutions, of which are only possible when emotions are tempered. It is of critical importance for you to take the time you need to attend to yourself, essentially calling a time out. If she is worth a hoot, she will probably understand. That said, there is going to be her fear of you leaving her and all of the emotional outbursts that come with it.

The ultimate answer to your question is, can you be good to her in the future, whether or not you believe her, regardless of what did and did not happen, can you still be good to her. She has to face the same realities that you do, for there is no real justice for any wrongdoings. 

Good Luck,
RT


----------



## TDSC60

I once read a book by a WW spouse. She claimed to have the fairy tale marriage. Wonderful husband, beautiful healthy kids, dream house, very little debt. But she felt "something was missing". She had an affair and after six months looked around at what she had to lose and stopped. Then she started wondering how she was able to risk all that she was and all she held dear for the sake of sex with another man even thought she always said she had no intention of leaving her husband. She started taking surveys of cheating wives. The hows, the whys, the outcomes, regrets, no regrets. Then she wrote the book.

Very revealing. Wish I could remember the name.


----------



## Spicy

A question to all you betrayed spouses. What harm would you see in him having her leave the home and take some time apart to make his decision? I'm asking because I have never been the betrayed spouse. I have sat here with a sad heart through people like my friend @Evinrude58 etc, getting mangled and cringed with him every step of the way...I hold your experience in high value, _as you all have lived it._ 

In my life I have erred on the side of waiting too long in a bad situation (marriage). So please, betrayed's, do you see harm coming from him not immediately reacting with brutal force back at her? If so, what? Thanks ahead of time as always.


----------



## sokillme

Spicy said:


> A question to all you betrayed spouses. What harm would you see in him having her leave the home and take some time apart to make his decision? I'm asking because I have never been the betrayed spouse. I have sat here with a sad heart through people like my friend @Evinrude58 etc, getting mangled and cringed with him every step of the way...I hold your experience in high value, _as you all have lived it._
> 
> In my life I have erred on the side of waiting too long in a bad situation (marriage). So please, betrayer's, do you see harm coming from him not immediately reacting with brutal force back at her? If so, what? Thanks ahead of time as always.


I don't, but he needs to ask the right questions. And he needs to think long term. Personally I think it's good to wait until the shock wears off. I think it's better if you can separate for at least 6 months. I think divorce and trying to date again is an even better idea. I say all this believing whole hardheartedly that only the most in love person would want to stay once the fog has lifted. Once the bonding goes away and you just have cold hard logic the idea of staying is not a nice one for most. 

Thing is, even if she is sorry. She is broken and it's a very big risk. I don't believe people just do this. The ability to disregard someone that close to you who you have built a whole life with means you are dangerous. There are a lot of people who can do this true, but they are not people you should try to have long term relationships with. That doesn't just change. I don't even think it changes with a lot of work, I think these people just control that side of themselves. Its always a risk of coming back, just like an alcoholic. I would say this behavior is very similar. Again that is something that makes it very heard to be in a relationship.


----------



## 225985

sokillme said:


> I don't, but he needs to ask the right questions. And he needs to think long term. Personally I think it's good to wait until the shock wears off. I think it's better if you can separate for at least 6 months. I think divorce and trying to date again is an even better idea. I say all this believing whole hardheartedly that only the most in love person would want to stay once the fog has lifted. Once the bonding goes away and you just have cold hard logic the idea of staying is not a nice one for most.
> 
> 
> 
> Thing is, even if she is sorry. She is broken and it's a very big risk. I don't believe people just do this. The ability to disregard someone that close to you who you have built a whole life with means you are dangerous. There are a lot of people who can do this true, but they are not people you should try to have long term relationships with. That doesn't just change. I don't even think it changes with a lot of work, I think these people just control that side of themselves. Its always a risk of coming back, just like an alcoholic. I would say this behavior is very similar. Again that is something that makes it very heard to be in a relationship.




Your input is invaluable. But you are mostly against reconciliation.


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## sokillme

blueinbr said:


> Your input is invaluable. But you are mostly against reconciliation.


Yes, I am bias, don't deny it. I have posted about and gotten yelled at before on here. I just think it is a very hard thing to live with and be happy, or at least be as happy as you can be without living with it. I also think love is really only a part of R, just like it is only a part of Marriage. I get that love conquers all is a wonderful fairy tale but it doesn't.

Don't worry there will be plenty of sentiment in the other direction to even me out. Ever notice that as soon as a cheater is discovered their are 3 or 4 post about how to R, the cheater must do this and that, no one asks them if they are bias for R. 

Anyway I feel awful for OP. It's hard to believe people can be so cruel, people you delicate your life to no less.


----------



## Bibi1031

blueinbr said:


> Your input is invaluable. But you are mostly against reconciliation.


I think that when you think logically, it is best to walk away from someone who has betrayed you in the most awful way. Reconciliation is extremely difficult when trust has been shattered into a million pieces. Humpty Dumpty cannot be put back together again. That is the logical truth. Reconciliation is the exception to the rule and like every exception, it's very rare that it will be successful. It's simply not the norm. 

I have no regrets of filing ASAP. Time has shown me that that was the path of less pain and quickest recovery for me. My X was like Cam's wife. He was confused. He had no remorse. He just wanted damage control. He has gone through several affairs and cannot find happiness. He is broken. People who can throw away a faithful, loving, great wife like my X insists he had, are not worth keeping. 

How can you say you had a great woman and marriage and yet cheat on them with the excuse that they fell in love with another? And yet the second chance at love they leave a great woman for ends up being a stupid lie of a fantasy that only lasts about 6 months?

He threw and shattered everyone's lives for a stupid fantasy. No decent spouse will do this to what they consider "a great spouse" plain and simple. 

Maybe my X says this because of our two kids, who knows. I don't believe a word that comes out of that cheater.


----------



## sokillme

Bibi1031 said:


> I think that when you think logically, it is best to walk away from someone who has betrayed you in the most awful way. Reconciliation is extremely difficult when trust has been shattered into a million pieces. Humpty Dumpty cannot be put back together again. That is the logical truth. Reconciliation is the exception to the rule and like every exception, it very rare that it will be successful. It's simply not the norm.
> 
> I have no regrets of filing ASAP. Time has shown me that that was the path of less pain and quickest recovery for me. My X was like Cam's wife. He was confused. He had no remorse. He just wanted damage control. He has gone through several affairs and cannot find happiness. He is broken. People who can throw away a faithful, loving, great wife like my X insists he had, are not worth keeping.
> 
> How can you say you had a great woman and marriage and yet cheat on them with the excuse that they fell in love with another? And yet the second chance at love they leave a great woman for ends up being a stupid lie of a fantasy that only lasts about 6 months?
> 
> He threw and shattered everyone's lives for a stupid fantasy. No decent spouse will do this to what they consider "a great spouse" plain and simple.
> 
> Maybe my X says this because of our two kids, who knows. I don't believe a word that comes out of that cheater.


:iagree:

And heaven forbid you end up like this. That's the risk.

Even after all that the bottom line is they don't deserve it, and a BS deserves better.


----------



## cam42

I asked for space and she's given me space. I'm in no state of mind to make a decision and am going to be going to individual counseling and she's already doing the same without me telling her. She got an STD test and will get her results in a week. This is the other mans last week at the job. I got the full story from her and she doesn't know I met the OM's wife, pretty positive on that. She has been nice today and looks kinda depressed, probably because she can't see her boyfriend anymore. She asked what I wanted for dinner and I just got myself something. She asked if I wanted stimulation after dinner while the kids were in their rooms. She told me she was buying condoms today if I wanted to try them out with her, I didn't even respond to the text. She needs to understand what space means, she's been doing bad so far and if she wants to reconcile she needs to stop doing too much. I was told that the BJ is for my benefit and I have needs. 

Well damn I haven't had sex or a bj in a little over a week and this is the longest we've ever went so far. Guess I have to pick up an old teenager habit again. Should I just accept her advances for the time being?


----------



## 225985

*Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



sokillme said:


> Yes, I am bias, don't deny it. I have posted about and gotten yelled at before on here. I just think it is a very hard thing to live with and be happy, or at least be as happy as you can be without living with it. I also think love is really only a part of R, just like it is only a part of Marriage. I get that love conquers all is a wonderful fairy tale but it doesn't.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry there will be plenty of sentiment in the other direction to even me out. Ever notice that as soon as a cheater is discovered their are 3 or 4 post about how to R, the cheater must do this and that, no one asks them if they are bias for R.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway I feel awful for OP. It's hard to believe people can be so cruel, people you delicate your life to no less.




IMO the only folks who can really recommend R are those that did it. 

As I say often, cheaters typically compartmentalize so IMO they are not intentionally cruel. I know you disagree with that. 

But asking OP how she looks before she goes out to date her BF, wow. That's just evil.


----------



## sokillme

cam42 said:


> I asked for space and she's given me space. I'm in no state of mind to make a decision and am going to be going to individual counseling and she's already doing the same without me telling her. She got an STD test and will get her results in a week. This is the other mans last week at the job. I got the full story from her and she doesn't know I met the OM's wife, pretty positive on that. She has been nice today and looks kinda depressed, probably because she can't see her boyfriend anymore. She asked what I wanted for dinner and I just got myself something. She asked if I wanted stimulation after dinner while the kids were in their rooms. She told me she was buying condoms today if I wanted to try them out with her, I didn't even respond to the text. She needs to understand what space means, she's been doing bad so far and if she wants to reconcile she needs to stop doing too much. I was told that the BJ is for my benefit and I have needs.
> 
> Well damn I haven't had sex or a bj in a little over a week and this is the longest we've ever went so far. Guess I have to pick up an old teenager habit again. Should I just accept her advances for the time being?


Nope, they will probably just increase your pain at the moment. Your heart will want to bond with her but it will just hurt you when you try. This stuff is very hard to fix, giving you BJ's to try to make it up to you kind of shows you what type of person she is doesn't it? The only thing that can heal it is time. It's like emotional cancer, it breaks you heart down to it weakest, but then you heal. Can you take that vacation and really get away? 

Try to see it like emotional boot camp. Every day getting stronger, separating from the power she had over you. 

I'm sorry OP, this is one of the worst hells anyone can go through. But if you can get through it you can get through anything. There is hope my friend. I remember thinking will I ever feel better from this? Is there really going to be a day when I can look back and there will be no sting. One day that day came. You will get there.


----------



## TX-SC

cam42 said:


> I asked for space and she's given me space. I'm in no state of mind to make a decision and am going to be going to individual counseling and she's already doing the same without me telling her. She got an STD test and will get her results in a week. This is the other mans last week at the job. I got the full story from her and she doesn't know I met the OM's wife, pretty positive on that. She has been nice today and looks kinda depressed, probably because she can't see her boyfriend anymore. She asked what I wanted for dinner and I just got myself something. She asked if I wanted stimulation after dinner while the kids were in their rooms. She told me she was buying condoms today if I wanted to try them out with her, I didn't even respond to the text. She needs to understand what space means, she's been doing bad so far and if she wants to reconcile she needs to stop doing too much. I was told that the BJ is for my benefit and I have needs.
> 
> Well damn I haven't had sex or a bj in a little over a week and this is the longest we've ever went so far. Guess I have to pick up an old teenager habit again. Should I just accept her advances for the time being?


Unless you are sure you will R, no I would not accept her advances. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## The Middleman

cam42 said:


> Should I just accept her advances for the time being?


Nooo! Besides the fact that you need the detaching, the last thing you want to do is risk knocking her up! We've seen that trick used here before to force 'reconcilation'.


----------



## cam42

To be honest I think I am going to go to the divorce route when a month hits so I'll just leave it alone. The counseling I am admitting into will help me with the emotional trauma maybe, maybe not. I just don't want to be a part-time dad but I have read that I shouldn't stay for just the kids. I don't know what I want but I have gotten messages telling me from you guys telling me to just wait it out. But I think the general message is that I should just divorce her. Well hopefully I have the power to do that soon. But I'm not strong enough at the moment but I need to make moves.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

cam42 said:


> I asked for space and she's given me space. I'm in no state of mind to make a decision and am going to be going to individual counseling and she's already doing the same without me telling her. She got an STD test and will get her results in a week. This is the other mans last week at the job. I got the full story from her and she doesn't know I met the OM's wife, pretty positive on that. She has been nice today and looks kinda depressed, probably because she can't see her boyfriend anymore. She asked what I wanted for dinner and I just got myself something. She asked if I wanted stimulation after dinner while the kids were in their rooms. She told me she was buying condoms today if I wanted to try them out with her, I didn't even respond to the text. She needs to understand what space means, she's been doing bad so far and if she wants to reconcile she needs to stop doing too much. I was told that the BJ is for my benefit and I have needs.
> 
> Well damn I haven't had sex or a bj in a little over a week and this is the longest we've ever went so far. Guess I have to pick up an old teenager habit again. Should I just accept her advances for the time being?


Communicate from a position of strength. While I teach acceptance and strict personal responsibility, it is also critical for individuals to give their stance objective respect, as well. When asking you if you want dinner, give her an answer. Regarding her sexual advances, if you feel it is not in the cards, then approach her with what you want her not to do now. 



> if she wants to reconcile she needs to stop doing too much.


Neither of you knows the perfect path and both of you are experiencing emotional turmoil.

That all said, reconciliation is a process. Separations are tough because disconnection engenders more disconnection and vice versa. If you disconnect from her, then she may likely decrease her externalized reconciliatory efforts (in time).


----------



## sokillme

blueinbr said:


> I'm not yelling. I am a cheater (not PIV but a cheater nevertheless) and hypocritically probably could not stay married if my W banged another guy.
> 
> IMO the only folks who can really recommend R are those that did it.
> 
> As I say often, cheaters typically compartmentalize so IMO they are not intentionally cruel. I know you disagree with that.
> 
> But asking OP how she looks before she goes out to date her BF, wow. That's just evil.


I know your not. I am talking about a different thread. By the way I am not recommending R so it doesn't matter if I did it or not >. I have no problem with people pointing out my bias, I don't hide it. I also don't think all cheaters are intentionally cruel (a small amount are just emotionally retarded), I just don't think that matters. The are cruel none the less. If by design or brokenness I don't see a difference. There is still the problem of them being cruel. 

The thing with this idea of compartmentalizing is that their lives are never so compartmentalized that they forget to keep the lies they have told straight. Never compartmentalized enough that they forget to plan ways to deceive their spouses. 

The way they do compartmentalize exceptionally well is with the guilt and the knowledge that they are destroying another person to get their thrills. They are very good at putting that aspect of their affairs into a little box and forgetting about it. If you are talking about that I agree. That really doesn't make it seem better though, it just makes it scary, I mean when you think about it, it actually makes it worse. 

The idea that they are living 2 separate lives though just doesn't hold up. Look at it this way, if I am cheating on my wife and I don't answer my phone because I am with my AP, I know I am going to have to come up with a story to tell her when she asks why I didn't answer. Right then you can't say I wasn't thinking about the consequences or about how it would effect my wife. My whole motivation in that action was driven by those consequences. Multiply that by hundreds of thousands of little lies like that and that's a whole lot of time thinking about my wife, specifically how to lie to her. 

Anyway I do think the idea that BS who can R need to also be able to compartmentalize makes sense. It's probably true, they have to be able to put all the pain and logical knowledge about what kind of person their WS is into that box I was talking about, because if you can't how could you live with them.

Anyway this is a thread jack. @MattMatt isn't going to like it.


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## sokillme

cam42 said:


> To be honest I think I am going to go to the divorce route when a month hits so I'll just leave it alone. The counseling I am admitting into will help me with the emotional trauma maybe, maybe not. I just don't want to be a part-time dad but I have read that I shouldn't stay for just the kids. I don't know what I want but I have gotten messages telling me from you guys telling me to just wait it out. But I think the general message is that I should just divorce her. Well hopefully I have the power to do that soon. But I'm not strong enough at the moment but I need to make moves.


This is why I suggest that vacation. Is there something that you love that you could do away from her, the most important thing you need to do is get your strength back.

Your kids will survive, don't feel guilty, you didn't do this to them. Many, many kids grow up in 2 family homes and thrive. This is something that in the long run you must be willing to work with your wife with. You both still have a responsibility to them as parents.


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## Bibi1031

cam42 said:


> To be honest I think I am going to go to the divorce route when a month hits so I'll just leave it alone. The counseling I am admitting into will help me with the emotional trauma maybe, maybe not. I just don't want to be a part-time dad but I have read that I shouldn't stay for just the kids. I don't know what I want but I have gotten messages telling me from you guys telling me to just wait it out. But I think the general message is that I should just divorce her. Well hopefully I have the power to do that soon. But I'm not strong enough at the moment but I need to make moves.


Your don't have to do anything right now. Your emotions are all over the place. They will be like that for quite some time (probably months). It's OK to fence sit this one. She may not be very patient; after all her life has exploded as well and you are not playing nice by not taking her advances. 

She now has fears that she simply threw out into that little compartment called marriage and she realizes the two worlds have collided and she has no idea how to separate them anymore. She wants to appease you with sex. After all, she knows how to make you happy in that department. Well, you are not the same man anymore. Something very quick and drastic has altered that. Nothing will or can be as it was anymore. You may deeply wish to rug sweep and just take her back, but the reality of this awful truth will not give you peace for long. There is no quick fix for this hell. You only need to go through it.

She seems like a quick fixer and she will sadly find out things don't work that way. That is her problem of course and she will need to deal with it with a professional. You need to think about YOU because you need to feel better and at peace. Rug sweeping and having sex with her will only bring you a hell of a lot of unwanted triggers and emotions that you don't need right now. Sex will not fix the mess she created. The temporary fulfillment will leave you empty, angry, resentful and very very hurt.

If you fail and cave in to her advances, don't worry, it's all part of the process. You will find out that the temporary relief comes with a high emotional price and will leave a sour taste in your mouth.


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## Evinrude58

You got the whole story? Did you get their texts and emails? Then you don't have the full story


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## sokillme

Understand OP that using sex is the same as when she used your natural instinct to idealize her to make it easy to manipulate you. Previously she understood and used your instinct to believe your wife was the "most kindest, sweetest, loyal person" and that made it easy for her to trick you into not watching her closely, she tried to play on that so you wouldn't ask any more questions when she was caught. (I would never do something so bad, you know I am kind and loyal). 

Today she tried to use your natural desire want to have sex with and bond with her, knowing this will also be a bonding force for her, and give her power over you. Both times she has used your natural instincts to try to manipulate you. WS of both sexes are really good at manipulation, and using our own natural instincts against us. This shows a lot about her. I suspect the kids will be the next thing she uses. She may talk about how YOU are splitting their family. She really is kind of low. Don't fall for her BS. This is not what true remorse looks like. It take understanding and shame before anything changes. Right now you just got more of the same.


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## 225985

Evinrude58 said:


> You got the whole story? Did you get their texts and emails? Then you don't have the full story




Good point. 

OP. Did you read the texts? You got them right?

Any reaction to them?


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## Bibi1031

Sadly the truth is now not enough right? You are still very hurt, angry and confused as you should be. You need to understand that you will be feeling this ugly roller coaster of emotions for quite some time. 

You want to feel some semblance of your old life and that is why you think that maybe you can enjoy the sex with her. Well, you probably can't if you are questioning if you should do it or not. If you just wanted to feel good, you would say screw this and take her advances, but something inside you is holding back. That something is trying to protect you from further damage. She still feels no remorse. She is still very confused. she just wants to feel better if everything is OK at home. Well, nothing is going to be OK anymore. She was very selfish in the choices she made. Choices have consequences. She needs to experience the reality of the damage that has been committed. 

She may not be capable of owning that damage caused. It's after all very painful to accept, especially when she so stupidly did some very terrible mistakes like playing boyfriend/girlfriend with a man that was married and probably would never leave his wife for an easy lay like her.


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## lordmayhem

cam42 said:


> Well damn I haven't had sex or a bj in a little over a week and this is the longest we've ever went so far. Guess I have to pick up an old teenager habit again. Should I just accept her advances for the time being?


What? Do not allow yourself to be manipulated with sex, because that's all it is: manipulation. Next thing you know, hysterical bonding is taking place and then you're sweeping this under the rug.

Doesn't it bother you that she was banging the OM and he was giving her creampies? Don't you have the mind movies of them being together?

Stop thinking with your little head.


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## Lostinthought61

Are you planning on leaving for a couple days....to get some air? Also since she does not know you met with the OM wife....have you asked for a complete time line to see if she is ready to confess to everything?


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## cam42

I don't see what me leaving will do, and my wife was most likely trying to manipulate me because she knows I'm not in the right state of mind at the moment. I love my home, I loved my family, I loved what life I thought I had. Even without my wife I still have my kids, siblings, parents, nieces, nephews. I realized the sex between the two wasn't even the worst part. I think the worst part is that your spouse is forming bonds with another, sharing secrets, you look at your spouse or partner and think you can tell them anything and they will always back you up. Inside jokes, telling each other you love one another. That's what hurts me the most, me and her would have conversations about anything and go on for hours. I will actually miss that more than the sex if we divorce. I feel like all of that is meaningless and I wish I could say I regret it but I don't. I was happy for so long and she gave me three kids, being with her for over 20 years was great for me and the memories can never be taken away.

Hopefully she just sees what she did to me, what she did to us, to our family. That's all I can hope for. My wife and I would just sit on the bed together talking about our future, past memories, and how happy we are with each other. I'm going to miss that the most. I wish I could just stop feeling like this. I think it's best she goes to her parents for a week but I don't think she'll go for that. Thank you guys seriously. I know you all want what's best for me and I hope I'm strong enough to do the right thing for my family and myself.


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## sokillme

cam42 said:


> I don't see what me leaving will do, and my wife was most likely trying to manipulate me because she knows I'm not in the right state of mind at the moment. I love my home, I loved my family, I loved what life I thought I had. Even without my wife I still have my kids, siblings, parents, nieces, nephews. I realized the sex between the two wasn't even the worst part. I think the worst part is that your spouse is forming bonds with another, sharing secrets, you look at your spouse or partner and think you can tell them anything and they will always back you up. Inside jokes, telling each other you love one another. That's what hurts me the most, me and her would have conversations about anything and go on for hours. I will actually miss that more than the sex if we divorce. I feel like all of that is meaningless and I wish I could say I regret it but I don't. I was happy for so long and she gave me three kids, being with her for over 20 years was great for me and the memories can never be taken away.
> 
> Hopefully she just sees what she did to me, what she did to us, to our family. That's all I can hope for. My wife and I would just sit on the bed together talking about our future, past memories, and how happy we are with each other. I'm going to miss that the most. I wish I could just stop feeling like this. I think it's best she goes to her parents for a week but I don't think she'll go for that. Thank you guys seriously. I know you all want what's best for me and I hope I'm strong enough to do the right thing for my family and myself.


I feel you man. Sorry. I wish I could help you. You are right, this is one of the 5hittiest things one human being can do to another. No 2 ways about it. I know you don't believe it when I say it, because I can remember not believing it myself, but you will be happy again, you will have joy again. You can't see it, but I promise you, you will.


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## Evinrude58

Yeah, you've not got the whole story yet.......
Sorry man.... Really.


----------



## drifting on

Cam42

Your mind isn't clear yet, you haven't even been separated, you need the space. My suggestion to you is to find a divorce attorney, get that process started, then wait six months. It's probable you can't be divorced any faster then six months, and if you choose to divorce or reconcile you can stop the divorce or let it move forward. By waiting six months does not let you be seen as weak if you file now. But six months from now your mind will be clearer.

I would not have any relations with her, and if she asks to, ask if she would knowing you were on a date less then a week ago. That should hit home to her that right now you desire no touch from her at all. You also need to be firm without being cruel. I say this as you have not decided what you fully want. I wanted to divorce also, but many factors need to be researched to find the best decision for you overall. That is why you file now but can decide without losing time if you decide to go forward with the divorce. 

I would send your wife to her parents for a week, if she refuses then tell her that her chance for reconciliation is getting slimmer. Also tell her she must tell her parents, this is not negotiable in any way. She is to tell her parents the affair was her choice entirely and you are not at fault. 

Next you get in to IC, start getting your mind right and focus on your kids. Anger is coming very soon and you should talk to your therapist about how to relieve it. Start to separate finances also, ask your divorce attorney the best ways to go about this. Watch your wife from a distance, be sure her actions are now positive to the marriage and you. Stay strong and best of luck.


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## ne9907

cam42 said:


> I don't see what me leaving will do, and my wife was most likely trying to manipulate me because she knows I'm not in the right state of mind at the moment. I love my home, I loved my family, I loved what life I thought I had. Even without my wife I still have my kids, siblings, parents, nieces, nephews. I realized the sex between the two wasn't even the worst part. I think the worst part is that your spouse is forming bonds with another, sharing secrets, you look at your spouse or partner and think you can tell them anything and they will always back you up. Inside jokes, telling each other you love one another. That's what hurts me the most, me and her would have conversations about anything and go on for hours. I will actually miss that more than the sex if we divorce. I feel like all of that is meaningless and I wish I could say I regret it but I don't. I was happy for so long and she gave me three kids, being with her for over 20 years was great for me and the memories can never be taken away.
> 
> Hopefully she just sees what she did to me, what she did to us, to our family. That's all I can hope for. My wife and I would just sit on the bed together talking about our future, past memories, and how happy we are with each other. I'm going to miss that the most. I wish I could just stop feeling like this. I think it's best she goes to her parents for a week but I don't think she'll go for that. Thank you guys seriously. I know you all want what's best for me and I hope I'm strong enough to do the right thing for my family and myself.


Everything that you are feeling is normal. I am sorry you are hurting, several posts ago you asked if having sex with her would be okay. No. Do not have sex with her. You still love her, throwing sex in the mix will make you even more confused.

About reminiscing the good times, perhaps you always will. The trick is to make new memories. I remember after my separation/divorce, I would cry every time the weather turned stormy. Thunderstorms were a thing the ex and I shared. We often would sit outside on our porch and watch the thunderstorm pass us by, we would talk about anything or just stay silent and observe the beautiful forces of nature. We would look at the sky and watch the clouds appear out of nowhere!
We would also say that we couldn't wait to grow old together, sit outside on our porch, and watch the thunderstorm pass us by. 

This will NOT happen with him. Might happen with someone else, but for sure WILL happen to ME! I will sit outside on the porch and watch the thunderstorms. I am very happy I am divorced. I am so much stronger than I was before. I am ME. Took a long time, and still a work in progress but I AM HAPPY, YOU will be happy again too.

I was married for 15 year, divorced 2 years. We all heal differently, however, deception, lies, trickle truth, gas lighting, and everything that encompasses infidelity kills the soul. DO not kill your soul. Be HAPPY. BE LOVE. Be accountable for your life~

Hugs and LOVE!


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## TDSC60

cam42 said:


> To be honest I think I am going to go to the divorce route when a month hits so I'll just leave it alone. The counseling I am admitting into will help me with the emotional trauma maybe, maybe not. I just don't want to be a part-time dad but I have read that I shouldn't stay for just the kids. I don't know what I want but I have gotten messages telling me from you guys telling me to just wait it out. But I think the general message is that I should just divorce her. Well hopefully I have the power to do that soon. But I'm not strong enough at the moment but I need to make moves.


I agree that staying for the kids is a mistake, unless you can forgive your wife for what she has done and come out with stronger marriage. If you don't think you can do that or you think she is not 100% in with you, divorce is the only option.

Sadly I think your wife was/is in love with OM and you are the best option she has left since OM will not leave his wife. Sex with you is her attempt to manipulate you into giving her what she wants now (the home for stability and you for financial support) for entirely selfish reasons. I don't think she understands your pain and that is very telling about her state of mind during the affair and at this time.

Do not get bogged down in wishing things were like they were. Maybe the first 75% of your marriage or longer was real. The last several years were not. Your wife changed for whatever reason and became someone you do not know. She chose to destroy what you thought you had for entirely selfish reasons. The only time you, the kids, and your marriage entered into her mind was to think about how she could deceive you and keep her secret life secret. Her only regret is that she failed to do that, got caught, and has to give up OM because he dumped her. Or they may be planning in secret how they can keep the affair alive while continuing to deceive both spouses.

You are right when you say that the lies and deceptions are more painful than the sex. 

Good luck to you whatever path you choose.


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## 225985

Ok folks. If OP starts divorce that means they separate and live apart. 

Won't the wife then assume marriage is over and start dating other guys?

Doesn't even starting divorce basically ends the marriage?


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## farsidejunky

blueinbr said:


> Ok folks. If OP starts divorce that means they separate and live apart.
> 
> Won't the wife then assume marriage is over and start dating other guys?
> 
> Doesn't even starting divorce basically ends the marriage?


This is another advantage, Blue.

If she takes that course of action, you know her want to save the marriage was empty.

Not only does it give the BS space, but it measures the WS commitment level.


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## TDSC60

farsidejunky said:


> This is another advantage, Blue.
> 
> If she takes that course of action, you know her want to save the marriage was empty.
> 
> Not only does it give the BS space, but it measures the WS commitment level.


Agree with this.


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## NoChoice

OP,
I strongly suggest that you remember one critical fact throughout this ordeal. We are not you. No one on this forum knows your situation like you do. There are so many facets to a relationship and they are as unique as individuals. I implore you not to act based solely on the recommendations from this forum or any forum for that matter. Your decision must be based on YOUR particular set of circumstances and at the end of the day it is you that will live with your decisions.

Can you be happy divorcing and finding another woman? It is absolutely possible. Can you be happy reconciling with your wife IF she actually realizes what she has done and shows true, heartfelt remorse? It is absolutely possible. However no one can say with certainty which way will prove best for you because we do not know nearly enough about your situation to make that call, in fact, even you do not know enough about the situation currently to make that call.

The only thing that will give you clarity is time. We can offer advice but only you can make the decision that will forever impact your future. Allow yourself time to see if your wife's intentions are genuine, it will not take too long because if she is not sincere she will tire fairly quickly of kowtowing to you. If she is sincere however, she will be willing to wait as long as is necessary for you to see that she is indeed a different woman and worthy of your trust again.

I am in favor of informing her parents of her behavior and even asking her to stay with them for a time to allow the dust to settle in your mind. Then you will be prepared to make a decision based on rational judgement and reasoned thought. You are not able to do that presently. Lastly, may I say that if you R or D it will have no real impact on my life but it certainly will on yours so again, I strongly suggest that you not base any decisions on how you will "appear" to us, your friends, even your relatives but rather how you feel inside based on what the coming days and weeks shows you about her intentions and your feelings. Good fortune.


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## ulyssesheart

farsidejunky said:


> This is another advantage, Blue.
> 
> If she takes that course of action, you know her want to save the marriage was empty.
> 
> Not only does it give the BS space, but it measures the WS commitment level.


Exacto Mundo!

Talk is cheap. Actions are a down payment on promises. Promises kept or forgotten.


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## ulyssesheart

It is your choice to reconcile or to divorce.

If you Reconcile, you will do it alone, save a few Saints who will smile down on you.

If you Divorce, you will have the support of most of the folks here at TAM, and will have the support of the people who live at the corner of "Common and Sense" roads.

She deceived you openly and shamelessly. She shamed you in front of the Public-at-Large. The same public that will watch your every move going forward. Those that know you will pity you.

You will be surrounded by pity, a hard shell that will not weather. You good Sir, are tainted by her actions. 

Shed her, shed the pitiful shell. Hold your head high. 

After the Divorce and a couple of years down the road, you may want to give her another chance. But why? She changed, you did not. She has scar tissue that cannot be erased. Let a new man deal with her. 

She will be fine. WS's bounce back.


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## 225985

farsidejunky said:


> This is another advantage, Blue.
> 
> If she takes that course of action, you know her want to save the marriage was empty.
> 
> Not only does it give the BS space, but it measures the WS commitment level.




I am asking this so that OP sees this. 

That only works if she thinks there is a chance. Wouldn't he have to tell her there is a chance he will stop the divorce?


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## farsidejunky

blueinbr said:


> I am asking this so that OP sees this.
> 
> That only works if she thinks there is a chance. Wouldn't he have to tell her there is a chance he will stop the divorce?


Yes.


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## drifting on

Cam42

As hard as this is to tell you, your wife will go through many phases in the next six months. First and foremost you have to let her grieve the loss of OM, it sucks and I don't totally understand it fully. But every good therapist will tell you if she doesn't grieve this loss it will lead to more issues. Allow her to grieve, don't comfort her is what you need to do here. 

Your wife is feeling shame and humiliation for her affair. This does not mean she feels remorse or empathy, in fact she can't if she still has feelings for OM. This will take some but she should be over OM in the first six months. I would not have sex with her at this time, it will only create more issues. Her actions during this time and while grieving should be to heal the marriage. It is way to early for her to fully understand what she is facing in her attempts to help you just to feel safe. 

One thing to keep in mind, the pain your feeling is probably the worst pain you've ever felt. You will lean towards divorce and reconciliation during this time. But a decision does not need to be made this very moment in time. Starting the divorce proceedings is to protect you solely, it's not meant to punish. In six months you may decide to divorce, you may decide to reconcile, only you know your situation best and what you can move past.


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## sokillme

blueinbr said:


> Ok folks. If OP starts divorce that means they separate and live apart.
> 
> Won't the wife then assume marriage is over and start dating other guys?
> 
> Doesn't even starting divorce basically ends the marriage?


You do read posts from time to time by WS who desperately want their BS back even though the BS has moved on. Most WS are not that introspective though and just move on for some more of the ego fix. It's part of their brokenness and why you should be happy to be rid of them, as this is what makes them dangerous, the relationship is really about their own ego. Making her work for it is a good test, besides that, once OP gets out there he may find he doesn't want his WS back. A lot of these WSs have major problems, the cheating is just the most visual outward manifestation of that. Many BS's are kind of shell-shocked from years of this stuff, they were young when they got into the relationship and had little experience to know what they were missing. Once they get a taste of love without the crazy they never want to go back. Who wants a damaged car, when you can get one that works. Same idea. 

Maybe it's meant to be and he will divorce her and they can end up together again. That has happened too, but at least then there were consequences and he took his agency back. Much healthier, as one of the bitterest pills BS who R have to swallow is the loss of control over their own life, at least is far as I can tell from the painful posts that they write.


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## harrybrown

So has she enrolled in affair recovery.com for the both of you and paid for it out of her money?

Has she written the timeline of the A? she may have told you some things, but the writing process is important. Makes her think about her ****ty behavior.

She had an A with someone cheating on his wife. Sure makes him special, doesn't she think?

so she is willing for you to use condoms and not her boyfriend? Did she use protection with him? How many times?

so have her prove to you that this is her only A during your relationship? What she can't prove it? If you divorce will she wait for you and not date? 

she would have to prove that to you also. Put the burden of proof on her. Did she give the AP exciting sex that she did not do with you?

she is sorry that she got caught. You need to see if she is sorry for what she did. How would she feel if you had an A? 

Did she tell him she loved him? on her timeline you will get more than the emails.

Ask her if the kids are yours? Did she have Affairs and give birth to your children? will she pay for the DNA of her kids? is she really sorry for how she treated you?

or just sorry that she got caught and her fun times have stopped for now.

Good luck to you and your kids. Do have her go to her parents and she has to prove that she is not continuing the A or having another A.


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## phillybeffandswiss

blueinbr said:


> Ok folks.


Replace all the words in your questions with a grammatically correct usage of "affair" and the same point can be made.


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## Graywolf2

I know that you’re in a great deal of pain but your situation is far from unique. In fact it follows a pattern. Your wife is around 40 and the kids don’t need her as much as they once did. Being a mother isn’t as time consuming. Her identity for quite a while has been being a wife and mother. Now that the kids are more on autopilot being a mom isn’t as rewarding. 
Someone flatters her and reminds her that she’s a woman. She thought that part of her life was over but now she feels young again. She still has it. 

It sounds like you had a great marriage. You were her best friend and she probably loves you like a brother. You’re so stable and such a great family man that she can take you for granted. A fish doesn’t know that it’s in water. She’s the fish and you are her water. 

The OM is very motivated to get into her pants and says all the right things. Complements from strangers mean more than from a friend or husband. Husbands are supposed to say those things. The best husband can’t compete with that especially if they don’t even know that there is a competition. 
Then one thing lead to another and it was fantastic. The OM was married and had no intention of leaving his wife so he was perfect. No one would get hurt and she could still have her best friend (you). It wasn’t personal at all. She still thought you were a great brother.

She had sex with him which released oxytocin.

_“Widely referred to as the love hormone, oxytocin has also been dubbed the hug hormone, cuddle chemical, moral molecule, and the bliss hormone due to its effects on behavior, including its role in love and in female reproductive biological functions in reproduction.”
_
Please search for the TED talk by Helen Fisher: Why we cheat why we love.
Now your wife’s hormone induced feelings are confusing her. They will go away but it will take months.


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## Graywolf2

From the sound of it your family is everything to you. My bet is that she will come down from her high, realize what she is risking and say all the right things. Then you will R. To set the right tone for the R you need to file now.




cam42 said:


> She came to sit on the bed with me yesterday while I was laying down and kept asking me if I wanted any "stimulation" and that she's so sorry and will do whatever she can to make it right.


To me this illustrates that sex just isn’t a big deal to her. A few rolls in the hay and everything will be fine again.



cam42 said:


> A week ago a mutual friend spotted my wife and this dude out on a date basically and texted me about it. The mutual friend is actually more of her friend and is also female, it was a fairly nice restaurant and it looked pretty weird to her to see my wife who is married out with this man. She also noted that they were holding hands, how ****ing cute.


Again this shows that dating OM isn’t that big of a deal. Holding hands where you can be seen by friends.

The analogy I use for this is someone that ate pork as a child that converted to a religion where it’s a sin. They know that they promised not to eat pork and would hurt and disappoint people if they did. However deep down they will never feel guilty about eating bacon. She feels guilty for getting caught and hurting you but the act itself wasn’t all that bad. 

*That’s why you must file. To impress upon her that it is a big deal.*


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## Graywolf2

*Your wife has you in the friend zone.
*


cam42 said:


> There's a night in particular that I'm sure she had a night with her boyfriend. Day before New Year's Eve she was dolled up with a dress and heels and said she was going out with her girlfriends.


She asked you how she looked. That’s the natural thing to ask a friend when you’re going out on a date.



cam42 said:


> She also flipped out on me when I called her a cheating *****, I've never called her a ***** ***** **** **** ever. She said "See you don't give a **** about me anymore you ****ing ****".


A husband has the right to flip out and call you names under these circumstances. A friend doesn’t. It wasn’t personal and the friend would understand. A friend would never say such things.


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## JohnA

Cam, how many other threads have you read ? How many of these resulted in starting reconciliation, not being in but starting? 

Read @MovingFrwrd thread. Your thread has many in common with his to date.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/309042-struggling-forget.html


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## Evinrude58

Divorce her and move on.
What you had with her will never be the same, and you'll live under the shadow of her affair the rest of your life. You'll never trust her completely, probably none at all (you shouldn't). You will come to despise her, most likely.
As bad as it hurts, divorce her. SHe is not remorseful. She doesn't even subconsciously consider you her husband. I agree that you're just her friend now that she doesn't want to lose, but can. 
Let's see how long it takes for her to start dating when you file for divorce and separate, even if you tell her there's a chance you won't divorce. I'll bet in less than a month she's online shopping for a new **** to ride, because true remorse isn't present here, and because she likes the attention and something new.

JMO Do what you think is right, but wait quite a while until you're emotionally able to decide. You should file for divorce for a number of reasons. To not file immediately is a huge mistake.
You haven't mentioned the texts and emails the OM's wife was supposed to give you copies of. Hmmm.


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## nursejackie

I would definately at least give the illusion of filing so that she takes the devastation bestowd on you seriously. She really needs to understand just how awful her actions were. She eeds to know that her world could be rocked as much as yours as been. When I thought H was having an A -I printed out separation papers from the internet, filled them out as well as outlining a temporary separation agreement- how we will divide the assets, who will live where with whom- even who will get the dogs (ME!). I kicked him out of the bedroom and told his parents and mine what actions he had taken to make me get to that point. 

I wanted his fog to lift. I wanted him to see how his life could end up being very different than he thought it would.

We waffled back and forth through counselling over close to 2 years. It certainly has not been easy - this isnt even over yet...but I AM glad we are trying to R. I can see through the process of trying to R we have gotten closer in some ways that we wouldnt have without it. We have both grown up some. We have gotten to know ourselves and each other better. Should we decide later that R isnt for us then I hope we will hav grown enough at that point to end it amiacably and wish each other well.

Sometimes .....sometimes.......it is worth it to try to R. If it doesnt work you can opt out at any time. If you try to R you will know that you did everything you could and if its not for you ....well then...its not for you and you D.

But first kick her a$$ (not literally of course) she needs to feel some emotional pain.


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## Evinrude58

On to the story, so *my wife 41 female, has been having an "emotional affair" with her co-worker who is also married*. A week ago a mutual friend spotted my wife and this dude out on a date basically and texted me about it. The mutual friend is actually more of her friend and is also female, it was a fairly nice restaurant and it looked pretty weird to her to see my wife who is married out with this man.* She also noted that they were holding hands, *how ****ing cute. She told me and I confronted my wife when she got home (5 days ago). I asked for the full details of the affair *but she cried and said it will just hurt me even more*.

Basically she has been having an *emotional/sexting affair with this co worker for 6 months*. I would of never suspected her having an affair,* but she was certainly texting her girlfriends a lot and laughing*.

This woman has laughed at the OP, trickle-truthed him (won't even admit to sex), manipulated him, gave herself totally to another man for 6 months. 
Now that she's caught, she wants to know if he wants to be "stimulated".
If he wants to reconcile? 

You know what, I'd pass on this one. I would have done anything for a chance to reconcile with my cheating wife. But I'm past most of my pain. 
OP, having experienced this, I am telling you--- I would divorce this woman and never look back. She WILL cheat again. That's the problem.
She WILL cheat again, and you're out that much more pain, and that much more time you could be using to find a woman of stronger moral character.
I know you want to forgive her and trust her to be truly remorseful. This **** went on for 6 months and would still be going on, but for the fact that HER OWN FRIEND thought she was so despicable that she told her husband about her affair.

This site is for helping marriages. It's pro-reconciliation, when it's possible.
I don't think it's possible to have a long-term real reconciliation with this person you're married to.


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## Danny4133

Fully agree with the people advocating filing here regardless of if you want reconsillation or not. The betrail shouldn't be minimised. You have to take control, you are in a pool of emotion here, that's a given seperation should be the next move, pushing her out to her folks or whatever is absolutely necessary to give you space. I do also agree that no genuine remorse is presented from her.

It all comes back to that word again, control, and to get it you have to take the lead. Seperation and begin the process of legal dissolution, finances, shared plans with children, at least for the time being. 

You saying "This is how it is, this is how it's going to be" at least for now will instill some much needed stability while you work the longer term plans out.

Anyone who's successfully R'd or even D'd have done so with the minimum of faffing upon discovery (From what I've seen) as things stand the neutral state BS finds himself in is torment in itself. At the very least she needs to up sticks if she likes it or not so you can get some much needed space to figure this out.


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## JohnA

Cam,

I liked one of your last posts except for one comment you made: "I know you want what's best for me". There is only one person who makes that call YOU. I gave you a link please read it. Moving is reconciling and he might in the end be one of the 15% of BH who do. 

To clarify my views:

First you may divorce at some point (very likely) or not.

Second: you must first assume divorce and prepare for it. That means talking with a lawyer, assuming full custody to you, not 50/50 and then reducing it to give her more custody. Do not assume you can't or should not have full custody. Just because she has assumed many roles does not mean you cannot fill them and be better at it. 

Third watch her actions, do not listen to her words. Demand space to think, ask her to use the time to consider why she chose adultery. Don't say cheat (that's at cards) or affair (that's between singles) say adultery. Tell her whatever issues existed in the marriage are co-owed but her chocie of adultery belongs only to her and define her. That she dumped this mess onto you, the children extend family and friends. 
Warn her when you speak to her in the future to avoid Trickle Truth, re-writing, to have a definition for triggers, and mind movies.

While working on the first two points tell her you want to only discuss the children on a day to day basis (the 180) Critical Readings For Separation and Divorce - LoveShack.org Community Forums. Consider exposure Exposure 101 - Your Most Powerful Weapon - Marriage Builders® Forums. You will need to at one point. 

Your wife's adultery defines her ! Only your reaction and actions going forward define you !! Do not be a KISA or nice guy. Measure not twice but thice and then be ruthless with out anger.


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## JohnA

This site if you are in the US is a good start State Specific Divorce and Custody Information - Divorce Source


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## Graywolf2

Danny4133 said:


> You saying "This is how it is, this is how it's going to be" at least for now will instill some much needed stability while you work the longer term plans out.


I agree with this but make sure it's about your actions. You can only control yourself. Phrase it like "I'm going to do this. You can do whatever you want." Don't say if you don't do X I'm going to do Y. That puts you in a box and you sound controlling.


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## cam42

I'm starting to understand that the problem isn't me. It's her and only her. She got bored of married life and the same routine, she probably would of done this with anyone else as her husband. I'm going to see if I can meet with a lawyer in the upcoming days and go ahead and file. Maybe also make the affair public to her friends and family. I asked her why didn't she just divorce me and she said because she doesn't want a divorce. She said she got selfish and the OM fed her ego and made her feel so wanted. I was told by her that she wanted reconciliation and she understands that it could take years, but she wants to make it work. We will see.


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## Archangel2

cam42 said:


> I'm starting to understand that the problem isn't me. It's her and only her. She got bored of married life and the same routine, she probably would of done this with anyone else as her husband. I'm going to see if I can meet with a lawyer in the upcoming days and go ahead and file. Maybe also make the affair public to her friends and family. I asked her why didn't she just divorce me and she said because she doesn't want a divorce. She said she got selfish and the OM fed her ego and made her feel so wanted. I was told by her that she wanted reconciliation and she understands that it could take years, but she wants to make it work. We will see.


So, sorry if I missed this, she has admitted to a physical affair and everything else you found out?


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## cam42

Archangel2 said:


> So, sorry if I missed this, she has admitted to a physical affair and everything else you found out?


Yes it was a full blown affair. I thought I had a chance at reconciliation but everyone here is telling me it's not a good idea almost. I will make my decision as time goes on, maybe meet with an attorney to discuss my options beforehand and monitor my wife's behavior. She said "she will do anything and is absolutely disgusted by what I've done to you and our family" "I will do WHATEVER it takes." She said that all today and poured her heart out to me. I still don't know what to do.


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## MovingFrwrd

cam42 - 

So sorry you're here. I hope this site can provide some help for you. 

The biggest thing you can do is focus on yourself, and getting your emotions under control. Anger and rage inevitably leads to rash decisions. Not just about R or D, but about how you act in front of your children, what you do at work, how you treat others, or what you project onto what other say etc. Chances are this will take a while, with a lot of 'flare-ups' in between.

At this point, you need someone to talk to, a trusted friend, family member, etc. that can be an empathetic listener. You'll go crazy bottling it up inside. It would be good to have a bit of a network - 2 or 3 people or that can help fill this need for you. I strongly recommend that they are men, or if it's a woman that she be a family member. Sharing this kind of emotional pain can cause you to form a bond with another woman which may not be a helpful thing at this point. It seems like odd advice, but the last thing you need right now is a revenge affair.

Find a counselor for yourself as soon as possible, start working through the pain with them.

Exercise as much as possible - burn that anger off. We're here for you.


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## ABHale

Have her admit the truth to family and friends for starts. 

She lost plan A. Now it's time to build plan B back up. She didn't have a O shet moment what am I doing. She got outed by a friend of hers then lied to you about it. 

I even doubt this was her first time. 

Here's one thing to do. Schedule a polygraph and take her to it with out her knowing. Ask four questions. 

1. Did you belittle "your name" to the OM?

2. Is this the first time you cheated?

3. Are you in love you "your name".

4. Would you stay if "your name" cheated on you?

See what happens from there.


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## Archangel2

cam42 said:


> Yes it was a full blown affair. I thought I had a chance at reconciliation but everyone here is telling me it's not a good idea almost. I will make my decision as time goes on, maybe meet with an attorney to discuss my options beforehand and monitor my wife's behavior. She said "she will do anything and is absolutely disgusted by what I've done to you and our family" "I will do WHATEVER it takes." She said that all today and poured her heart out to me. I still don't know what to do.


You have received excellent advice on this forum. The only thing I would add is that you need to hammer home to her the thought that you are Plan B, and she will have to move heaven and earth to disabuse you of that feeling.

Peace and strength my friend.


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## GusPolinski

cam42 said:


> I'm starting to understand that the problem isn't me. It's her and only her. She got bored of married life and the same routine, she probably would of done this with anyone else as her husband. I'm going to see if I can meet with a lawyer in the upcoming days and go ahead and file. Maybe also make the affair public to her friends and family. I asked her why didn't she just divorce me and she said because she doesn't want a divorce. She said she got selfish and the OM fed her ego and made her feel so wanted. I was told by her that she wanted reconciliation and she understands that it could take years, but she wants to make it work. We will see.


Is she still lying?


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## Bibi1031

cam42 said:


> Yes it was a full blown affair.* I thought I had a chance at reconciliation but everyone here is telling me it's not a good idea almost.* I will make my decision as time goes on, maybe meet with an attorney to discuss my options beforehand and monitor my wife's behavior. She said "she will do anything and is absolutely disgusted by what I've done to you and our family" "I will do WHATEVER it takes." She said that all today and poured her heart out to me. I still don't know what to do.


 You DO have a good chance of reconciliation especially with the turn of events going on in your particular situation right now. 

Your WS is beginning to see what she wasn't willing to see during the high of the affair. Now that her worlds have collided; she realizes, just like you, that this is all on her. You need to make sure that the affair is exposed so that she doesn't start re-writing your history together and blame shifting you for something she is 100% responsible for.

No long term relationship is perfect, *but that is not an excuse to bring a third party into a relationship/marriage that consists of only two. She should of communicated any discontent she had with her spouse before seeking thrills in a third party.* Don't ever allow her to place any kind of blame on you or your marriage. 

Infidelity is not a solution to a relationship not being perfect. It only further complicates and destroys the relationship. She was selfish, weak and most of all very disloyal to all of her family. Her kids did not deserve to be compartmentalized in a stupid box! Their well being should have been above her selfish thrills. She sucks as a mother and of course as a wife. 

She needs to explain to the children why the family is threatened to be broken apart. Mommie decided to have a boyfriend and didn't tell daddy or them. She needs to word it in words that the children can understand. Even children as young as 5 or six understand that a mommy and a daddy cannot have a boyfriend. The children need to know the truth and learn to forgive her selfishness. Her parents and yours need to know as well. It is the only way that you will be able to reconcile with the damage her selfishness caused and hopefully this will help her appreciate and truly understand just how much of a gift you, the kids, and your parents are offering her with your forgiveness and willingness to work on the marriage.

She needs this not as punishment, but to acknowledge the responsibility of the damage committed to those she should have honored and loved above all others including her selfish self.

I hope your marriage survives infidelity if that is what you really want and can attain!


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## Relationship Teacher

cam42 said:


> I'm starting to understand that the problem isn't me. It's her and only her.


Many times the betrayer resorts to endless groveling, taking all of the blame and supporting that (quoted) logic. I was cheated on multiple times around 10 years ago. Was I "bad"? No, disconnection supports only 3 things, roommate relationships, affairs or dissolution. There is always going to be failure on the part of one individual to create and maintain connection, to varying degrees. Another possible failure is complacency and not enforcing boundaries.


> She got bored of married life and the same routine, she probably would of done this with anyone else as her husband. I'm going to see if I can meet with a lawyer in the upcoming days and go ahead and file. Maybe also make the affair public to her friends and family. I asked her why didn't she just divorce me and she said because she doesn't want a divorce. She said she got selfish and the OM fed her ego and made her feel so wanted. I was told by her that she wanted reconciliation and she understands that it could take years, but she wants to make it work. We will see.


Rationale behind cheating is quite understood in the professional community, in fact, one of my assessment guidebooks has a chapter devoted to the "Theory of Infidelity". People act and think irrationally, turning normal maturity on its head. It can be comfortable to cheat, knowing that there is still a warm home waiting for one. There are no commitments, responsibilities or demands. I have to spend the energy necessary to understand why and how affairs take place and it demands that I "feel" what they feel, meaning, that I employ empathy to a large degree. She was (for months) having her emotions guide her actions, which is called "emotional reasoning". This is a predominant factor in human behavior. It has awful repercussions, but the body rewards individuals with feel-good hormones. Reality has collided with her emotionally-driven world now.


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## Evinrude58

Since she has been having her emotions driving the truck happily for 6 months now, it's not too far fetched that her emotions pertaining to wanting you back will take the captain's seat as well for a while.

But she will get bored quickly with you (it's already happened 6 months ago), and will be looking for a new source to fuel her emotional adrenaline addiction.

You'll be back here again saying "you told me so".

Or, she'll fall back madly in love with you because you're so new and different and understanding of her, you'll take care of her every emotional need, and live happily ever after.

Only you can decide which is more likely. There is no guarantee that the next woman you fall in love with won't eventually so the same thing. This love stuff is a fickle thing.

You rarely answer questions.
Is she still lying?
Did you get the texts from the OM's wife?


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## sokillme

The real question is why is she saying this confession. Is it because of her love for you, or because of the threat of losing her lifestyle. The reason for that is because you really can't trust her. She has shown she will manipulate you to get her way before. The absolute worse thing you could do is waste more time and end up here again in 3 years. 11 hour confessions are a bit dubious to me. Now she gets what she did with the gun pointed to her head? Suddenly with the end of her lifestyle and family she has an epiphany? Weak. 

Personally I would tell everyone, but your kids for now. They are young so let them idealize their mom some more. They don't need to feel the pain and rejection yet. I would absoultly tell them when they are teenagers. Even if you stay together. I have seen too many BS be judged harshly by their kids because they don't know how much suffering that had to go through to stay or even if they the BS left. They often get blamed for braking up the family. This is wrong and their is no honor in it.

Also like some people are saying, you may be her plan B, but remember she is also your plan B. I am sure your plan A was to have a wife who wouldn't do this to you. Maybe this is something you can live with. That's up to you. Just remember this woman is never going to be the woman you sat on the bed and talked to about your future with again. Not in the same way. Now your future will have a lot of doubts in it. Do you want your marriage to be plan B. Because no matter what anyone says staying is settling. 

It's easy to tell just by the way you talk, to you there was something special in that bond. She was yours, she was loyal, she adored you. I get it. I think right or wrong, when you think idealistically about your relationship, it is very hard to come back. Part of the pain is you still want to think idealistically about your spouse, but every time you do, reality comes and kicks you in the face. She did this to me. She didn't love me enough to not do this. What kind of person is she really. I gave her my life, and she didn't care. Even with our kids. The disconnect and unfairness leads people to years of pain. It is very hard to heal from that if you stay. You read stories where years out of people having those old feeling for a moment and then braking down and crying because they are lies now. I think it is easier for people who think of love in a more practical way. Again this is why I say separate. Get away. With less emotion it will be easier to decide. (OP if she is really this remorseful tell her the first thing she needs to do is move in to her parents. That is the least of the things she can do). Remember idealism is one of the things you will absoultly have to give up if you stay with her, but you can still have that idealistic relationship with someone else.

Finally, I don't think people who do this just suddenly change, I wonder if there is not more in the past that you have no idea about. I would ask her to take a poly and then give her the chance to tell the truth about the past. I believe there are cheaters, and non cheaters. I also think you need to talk to the friend who told you. I bet your wife was a very different person with this friend when talking about this guy. Whatever the case you should absoultly not trust her. She hasn't shown herself to be trustworthy, in a sense this women is not the woman you married. Because that woman never existed.

Remember you may be able to let all these things go. You may be able to R. The question you should be asking yourself is why? Why would you want to? Are those reasons enough to accept how you have been treated, and to risk being treated this way again by her. Many, many cheaters cheat again. It's in their nature.


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## sokillme

Evinrude58 said:


> Since she has been having her emotions driving the truck happily for 6 months now, it's not too far fetched that her emotions pertaining to wanting you back will take the captain's seat as well for a while.
> 
> But she will get bored quickly with you (it's already happened 6 months ago), and will be looking for a new source to fuel her emotional adrenaline addiction.
> 
> You'll be back here again saying "you told me so".
> 
> Or, she'll fall back madly in love with you because you're so new and different and understanding of her, you'll take care of her every emotional need, and live happily ever after.
> 
> Only you can decide which is more likely. There is no guarantee that the next woman you fall in love with won't eventually so the same thing. This love stuff is a fickle thing.
> 
> You rarely answer questions.
> Is she still lying?
> Did you get the texts from the OM's wife?


Right she says this stuff like it's and excuse. OP honorable bored people get a hobby, not a boy toy.


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## ABHale

cam42 said:


> I'm starting to understand that the problem isn't me. It's her and only her. She got bored of married life and the same routine, she probably would of done this with anyone else as her husband. I'm going to see if I can meet with a lawyer in the upcoming days and go ahead and file. Maybe also make the affair public to her friends and family. I asked her why didn't she just divorce me and she said because she doesn't want a divorce. She said she got selfish and the OM fed her ego and made her feel so wanted. I was told by her that she wanted reconciliation and she understands that it could take years, but she wants to make it work. We will see.



She probably read all the magazine articles about how affairs improved my marriage or save my marriage and on and on. Also the one that said he won't leave if you cheat. 

This was her belief from the start. So you get to go through hell finding out and years to come, just to stay with a cheating wife.


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## ABHale

If you haven't already, expose this to everyone. Family and friends. These needs to happen. 

You mentioned getting your wife to stay with her parents for a week. Make this happen.


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## drifting on

Cam42

I don't have much time right now, but until you decide to reconcile or divorce, I would only expose to yours, hers parents. Exposing could lead to job loss, you may then pay alimony and child support. If you decide to reconcile exposing to more then just your parents can backfire. 

Make sure you are making decisions from a place of calm and reason instead of emotional unrest and irrational thoughts. Best of luck.


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## Mr.Fisty

Take your time to process your emotions. My advice is to stay separate and whether it works or not, make a stipulation that she seeks help first and give yourself the time you need to figure out whether reconciliation is right for you or not. You will have lots of ups and downs and in the end may just decide to end it all. You need to figure if that bridge is really burned or not or else there is no reason in trying but at the very least, be co-parents.

While remaining detached, you can watch and observe if changes are really being made and whether she can go through a crucible and reforge herself if not for the marriage sake, but the children so she does not end up creating a chaotic life for herself and in turn the children.

Right now, you do not know if she can motivate herself to commit to change and you should take your time after that to see how you feel and whether it is worth the emotional pain or not thereafter.


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## JohnA

Cam, 

Only you can decide to divorce. Whart people are hamming you on is what usually happens. The TT, the Trigers, the mind movie, the broken NC, and the refusal to meet the basics to ATTEMPT to reconcile. I provided you with three links, one to the 180, one for exposure, and one to a fellow poster that has come back from worst. 

If you want info on what do to attempt to reconcile, ask. If you want info on what the pitfalls in reconciliation, ask (especially about false R). 

I have several length threads from how he did it to filing. Get the ability to PM. It's free once you past 50(?) posts. So read other posts and post comments, you shpuld be doing this anyway. Here is a post about limerence it might help you understand why she is stuck and why you must expose. Exposure 99% of the time ends The adultery. 

What Is Limerence?

We use the term limerence for this strong emotion. It was coined in 1979 by Dorothy Tennov. In her book Love and Limerence she listed a number of characteristics of limerence including:

• intrusive thinking about the person one is madly in love with (referred to as the Limerent Object or LO)

• strong, pervasive longing for the LO to reciprocate the emotion

• feelings of euphoria or ecstasy when any action by the LO is interpreted as demonstrating reciprocal emotions

• obsessive thinking about the LO to the point that many other things, even important things, are ignored or neglected

• a powerful perception that the LO is nearly flawless (good qualities are magnified; bad qualities strongly minimized)

• sexual desire for the LO

Neither a straying spouse nor a paramour in limerence sees the future as it likely will be. They exist in the throes of ecstasy that come with limerence, as well as the pits of fear when anything occurs that has any possibility of preventing them from being together. That fear leads each of them not only to experience exuberance when the LO demonstrates positive emotion, but also worry and despair if they interpret any word or action from the LO as negative. Those of us who have been through limerence testify that it is a strange, overwhelming sensation that vacillates wildly between love and fear, joy and misery. That’s why logic doesn’t work with people in limerence. It’s such a powerful emotion that it denies the logic that confronts it.


If you want a link let me know.


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## JohnA

Cam, i started to re-read your posts. At first glance my reaction is you are doing it all wrong. All that will happen is you will passively accept what ever is given you. **** that ****. 

First you leaving the home or her leaving the home with the children, will cause your children to perceive you as leaving them. A week-end retreat to meditate is fine but not more then that, 

Is your state fault or no fault? If it is no fault the adultery may be considered regarding custody and spousal support but not asset division. (Follow the link I gave you.). What do you know about how custody is decided? Most states start will "best interest of the child" What does that mean? Right now I see you on the street, no home and just broken and that is on you not her. Again the adultery defines her not you. Your the actions you take define you. 

Best interest of the child often list stability as number 1. Can you buy the family home? Don't say no, talk with someone about it. You stay in the home or it is sold. Keeping the children in the same school and same social circles/activities is huge. Pug yourself into these activities now. To many man let that slide letting the wife handle it as a by product of a natural division of labor. Anything she can do you can do. You just need to think how and do. 

Some guys come out of the divorce in great shape, and quickly rebound. You can do this just read the material offered to begin with and ask !


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## OnTheRocks

Notice how things are progressing very quickly, and OP does not answer direct questions?


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## cam42

Well it was an interesting night. Our youngest daughter had an event that my wife and children attended. I put a smile on for the kids but it was surprising easy because our youngest always puts a smile on my face. I cried at the thought of not being able to see her or our other children everyday. Guys I don't think I can do it. How can I not see my children everyday? This is so mentally draining. Our two older ones are teenagers but the youngest is so close to me and me and her do so much together. I feel so sick thinking about missing her life. 

Sorry there is a lot of questions being thrown my way and I'm doing my best and am having a hard time. The emotions are starting to hit. No my wife isn't lying anymore and yes I've seen all the texts. She also told her mother about the affair and her mother told me she's sorry and she'll love me no matter what I'll decide to do so that was nice. I did end up crying a little bit and just let the wife hug me. I've just had an emotional night.


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## sokillme

The kid thing is the worst. Just remember you set the example for your kids. Don't let her abuse you whatever you do. Don't just let this go because right now you are in pain. It may seem easier to just forget about this, but that is a death trap. That's the kind of thing that gives you cancer. You need to be strong for the kids. Part of being strong is not accepting the worse possible outcome for yourself. If you want to see your kids full time go for full custody.

Also don't let your wife be in charge of your healing. That is letting the fox run the hen-house. She has already shown you she is fine with manipulating you to get her own way. She really is not a good person and not to be trusted at the moment, her motives are not pure. I know it's hard but you are only setting yourself up to hurt more if you don't take your agency and remove your wife's power over you. You would be better off hating her for a little while. 

Ask your wife to stay with her Mom for a while.


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## Satya

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &amp;amp;quot;emotional affair&amp;amp;quot; with a married man*

Sorry that it's a lot to process, cam. I don't think posters are trying to pile on, they want you to be very sure of what you want. That is going to take you time. People process things in their own way, fast or slow. 

You asked in a previous post why she didn't just divorce you. There could have been many reasons, but I would seriously doubt if any of them had to do with you at the time. I'm going to input my two cents... 

Why do many people resist choosing avenues that would lead to a less comfortable lifestyle, or the necessity to be more self sufficient, or less free and more moderated time with children, or an instant 50% less in the bank, or the possible/probable loss of a property, or..... 

Because why act in a way that admits finality, accepting all those pending lifestyle consequences and acknowledging the breakdown of your relationship in an adult way when your husband knows Jack about what you're doing anyway so you're guaranteed to get away with it with zero loss or consequence? It's pretty win-win. 

Only a child wants to get way with anything and everything. And a child who has never learned the real meaning of consequences for poor actions carries that behavior into adulthood.

An adult who can walk away from a troubled or broken relationship in a way that both acknowledges the existence of a problem whilst simultaneously separating in confidence and respect for all parties involved is a mature being IMO. It's what I call amicable divorce or breakup. No one wins really, but instead of cake eating or denial there is honesty, inevitability, individual accountability, acceptance, and continuation for both parties.

Some people choose to stay in intolerable or unhappy relationships, for what reason I can never personally understand, maybe because I have no children and I'm not driven by wealth or materiality, but it's a reason that's important enough to them. I've had one divorce, amicable. My marriage had an ultimate breakdown that was beyond my ability to control or affect the outcome of. Your wife had an ability to choose in a way I did and could not, and she chose not under any duress or influence other than her own. 

I strongly believe, no matter what you read from me or any other poster, that you must do what is right for you, when and only when you feel ready to decide what that means for your future and the future of your relationship.


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## JohnA

Cam,

You need to develop plans of action. One if you reconcile the other if you divorce. Dwelling in your pain is a living nightmare refered to as "limbo". How do you begin to break it? By first starting to plan. As you plan both paths the pieces will fall in place and you will begin to move foward and out of limbo. Will the pain still be there? Yes regardless of which path is taken but between time diminishing it and learning to cope you will be ok. Loss of a marriage and/or adultery hits like the death of a love one. We grow, we accept, we let go.

I liked your last post hopefully it is a first step and she told her mother. What did she admit to? What did she share with her mother? Has she offered any suggestions of what she wii do to insure your peace of mind and the adultery will not start up again? Starting up again is a huge issue. A locked phone kept close is a confession of guilt. Do not settle for anything less then all passwords. 

Cam, you need to start addressing the questions. To date your posts have been scattered and dwelled on how you felt. This is normal when a BS begins to post but at some point you need to pick a question and answer it.


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## Palodyne

File for divorce and seek 50% custody of the kids. Your wife cheated, cut her loose, get yourself free of her horror. Seek a life that will make YOU happy, and love your kids. You don't need a lowlife cheating wife for that!!


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## Danny4133

Cam,

Your last post regarding your children, *I get that absolutely, you never want to be away from them*.
I have a 6 and 2 year old (5 and 1) when this happened, I looked at what life would be like trying to R with a remorseless POS and quickly decided that I can make a better life disengaging, whilest both paths are hard cheese the longer term prospects are what's most important.

It wasn't YOU that put all this at risk, it wasn't YOU that devalued the kids and the marriage, but it's you who has to suffer the short term consequences of these actions.

Let me explain. 
Ok, so you reconcile with the main driving thing being your kids. You hang on to hope that although your wife blew up the family unit she's learned her lesson because other people have put a stop to her life in the shadows, and wouldn't do it again. You try your hardest to hold everything together *knowing that you're slowly being eaten alive by the gaps in information, eaten alive by the prospect that she could screw you over at any moment, or maybe is again, eaten alive by the mere thought that perhaps the affair has gone underground, that you were plan B, that all along the enemy is within the camp. 
*

Think about what this will do to you, 
Think about the sort of projection that home life will have on your kids, will that be healthy for them? will that be healthy for you? will you be able to return to a state of normality? 

We are still at starters orders here but the gun is about to fire, and believe me if you think you're in a baton race with your wife ready to pick it up later down the track you are mistaken. 
You my friend are in a race for your own well being, you look beside you and your wayward is actually stretching her legs and checking her laces to go up against you. This is HOW YOU need to view it, she is not on your team fella, she may make the moves to appear so, that's manipulation her secondary weapon, her primary are the kids and she will utilise all these things to her advantage because her needs come first and has been the case with the affair and now appears to be the case since discovery.

You need to separate (at least for the time being)
She needs to be the one to leave and explain to your two older kids why this is.
You need to go and seek professional advice to protect the access to your kids, *do not *I repeat *do not *leave the home!!

It's not ideal that the kids will be between two homes, but 7 months in my kids have adjusted just fine, do you know why? Because I know legally how this will play out, I know I get joint custody, I've read about minimising the effect this tragic situation has had on them and made adjustments accordingly to more than meet their needs. They can choose when their old enough if they see things differently, they can choose who puts their priorities first.

Make the call to a lawyer, they offer a free 30/60 min interview, do so just to gain some guidance.
If you want to PM me to discuss anything, to help minimise this for your children I'm always available.


----------



## NoChoice

cam42 said:


> Well it was an interesting night. Our youngest daughter had an event that my wife and children attended. I put a smile on for the kids but it was surprising easy because our youngest always puts a smile on my face. I cried at the thought of not being able to see her or our other children everyday. *Guys I don't think I can do it.* How can I not see my children everyday? This is so mentally draining. Our two older ones are teenagers but the youngest is so close to me and me and her do so much together. I feel so sick thinking about missing her life.
> 
> Sorry there is a lot of questions being thrown my way and I'm doing my best and am having a hard time. The emotions are starting to hit. No my wife isn't lying anymore and yes I've seen all the texts. She also told her mother about the affair and her mother told me she's sorry and she'll love me no matter what I'll decide to do so that was nice. I did end up crying a little bit and just let the wife hug me. I've just had an emotional night.


OP,
You must stop thinking that you must do something for US. We are inconsequential elements to your life and when your story is gone we will move to another post(s) and give advice there. Again, I implore you to make your decisions based on YOUR feelings, not on how we or any one else will perceive you. This is too important a decision to make simply to impress or appease someone, especially some anonymous posters on the internet. This is your life we are talking about not some dime store novel. This quote is salient, consider things carefully.


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## ABHale

Just one last question then. 

When you cried a little and she hug you. 

Was she crying as well because of the pain she was causing you?

Or was she hugging you saying it will be alright with a few tears?

In other words, she is fine with what has happened. She had her fling broke your heart and only has to tell her mother as a punishment. 

Taking about your kids. When they find out what their mother has done, they will you know, how will they look at you? I was four when my mom cheated, my dad divorce her. I knew why they D by the time I was 7 - 8 yrs old, neither of my parents said a word. My mom had full custody, I only saw my dad for two months during the summer. I have lived next door to my dad for the past 21 yrs. I had all the respect in the world for my dad standing up for what was right and himself. 

If you don't stand up for yourself, how are your girls to know what a real man looks like. All they are seeing is daddy is sad. Trust me they know something is wrong.


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## ulyssesheart

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &amp;quot;emotional affair&amp;quot; with a married man*



Satya said:


> Sorry that it's a lot to process, cam. I don't think posters are trying to pile on, they want you to be very sure of what you want. That is going to take you time. People process things in their own way, fast or slow.
> 
> You asked in a previous post why she didn't just divorce you. There could have been many reasons, but I would seriously doubt if any of them had to do with you at the time. I'm going to input my two cents...
> 
> Why do many people resist choosing avenues that would lead to a less comfortable lifestyle, or the necessity to be more self sufficient, or less free and more moderated time with children, or an instant 50% less in the bank, or the possible/probable loss of a property, or.....
> 
> Because why act in a way that admits finality, accepting all those pending lifestyle consequences and acknowledging the breakdown of your relationship in an adult way when your husband knows Jack about what you're doing anyway so you're guaranteed to get away with it with zero loss or consequence? It's pretty win-win.
> 
> Only a child wants to get way with anything and everything. And a child who has never learned the real meaning of consequences for poor actions carries that behavior into adulthood.
> 
> An adult who can walk away from a troubled or broken relationship in a way that both acknowledges the existence of a problem whilst simultaneously separating in confidence and respect for all parties involved is a mature being IMO. It's what I call amicable divorce or breakup. No one wins really, but instead of cake eating or denial there is honesty, inevitability, individual accountability, acceptance, and continuation for both parties.
> 
> Some people choose to stay in intolerable or unhappy relationships, for what reason I can never personally understand, maybe because I have no children and I'm not driven by wealth or materiality, but it's a reason that's important enough to them. I've had one divorce, amicable. My marriage had an ultimate breakdown that was beyond my ability to control or affect the outcome of. Your wife had an ability to choose in a way I did and could not, and she chose not under any duress or influence other than her own.
> 
> I strongly believe, no matter what you read from me or any other poster, that you must do what is right for you, when and only when you feel ready to decide what that means for your future and the future of your relationship.


I love this, @Satya. You are the adult in the room.

Cam, I am "sometimes" one of those people who take a hard stand and one who uses warped humor and sarcasm to make my point. This does NOT MEAN I have no sympathy for yours or any other persons painful circumstances. Your wayward wife served you soup with many hidden and sharp bones in it. Starving, you are forced to eat it.

I want justice for you and your un-earned pain. Divorce and total exposure would be my path forward. Right now you still love her and do not hate her. Hate may never arrive at your address. As we speak, the UPS Driver is heading up your driveway. He is bringing a basket of Disgust for you. Please sign off on the delivery. This will give you the strength to leave her. 

In reality, your marriage was already over, she left it in that restaurant. She and her boyfriend had a nice dinner. They left you the tab. How nice of them. How respectable. They held hands at the table and they likely rubbed their feet "way up" each others leg. They openly rubbed your marriage and your nose in the cold gravy.

Your WW had it made. She had one man who fed her, who feted her, who fxxked her, and one who paid for it. You paid for it in tears and pain. 

And she smiled the whole time, she laughed while talking and texting her girlfriends; she did this the whole six months. What gall!

THIS is what you cannot forgive. Her extreme happiness, giddiness, joy while carrying on with another man under you nose. This is so hurtful. And this why I plead my case, here.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

First and foremost I will advise you to ask her to leave the house. You need time away from her. You need to have time to yourself to think without any distractions from your WW. Most of all she MUST feel some pain from what she did to you and the family. By her leaving the house she will most likely feel some pain as she should.

I exposed to parents, our adult children, and my sisters, and sister and brother in laws as well as close friends. I left town for six weeks to clear my head and think. With my FWW being around, I would not have been able to think clearly. You as I was, are all over the radar. Do not do anything rash. You do not have to make any decision yet. Keep her twisting in the wind and by all means follow the 180. 

About six week after my Dday, I decided to attempt R. I knew my wife was remorseful, and made certain I was not plan b.It has been a year as of this past Christmas. Like you my initial inclination was D, until I had alone time to think. 

I am not telling you to R or D, but t only make your final decision after you let the anger subside and can think clearly.


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## Relationship Teacher

cam42 said:


> Yes it was a full blown affair. I thought I had a chance at reconciliation but everyone here is telling me it's not a good idea almost.


...due to pride. Individuals think to themselves, "I would never stand for that" and they impose it upon you, as if one or several events constitute the totality (fundamental attribution error). The worst thing you can do is fall in line with social vilification. The fact is that relationships do recover from affairs and often do become measurably more healthy after the fact. This in no way apologizes for cheaters or makes their actions worth undertaking, but is only a statistical reality. Savvy therapists are even capable of helping to heal relationships that suffer physical abuse. When you consider outside advice, also consider flipping it on its head. If individuals are telling you to abandon ship, imagine how many of their relationships would be in the same category.

This is a forum. I would be shocked if the vast majority of the community didn't insist for one to file for divorce due to affair. What would a different community of individuals say? Take it all in.



> I will make my decision as time goes on, maybe meet with an attorney to discuss my options beforehand and monitor my wife's behavior. She said "she will do anything and is absolutely disgusted by what I've done to you and our family" "I will do WHATEVER it takes." She said that all today and poured her heart out to me. I still don't know what to do.


Relationships aren't healed by desperation, but desperation is entirely normal when affairs are exposed, a true duality, indeed. Her emotions have flip-flopped, meaning that she is still not under full control of her rational mind. The problem is that relationships that go through affair reconciliation are doomed by the process undertaken to attempt to heal. What happens is that the relationship is put back together in an unstable fashion, usually along the lines of power balance. The betrayed is often hyper-vigilant and no longer accepts any less than perfection.

Reconciliation is a strict process and it requires navigating various extremes. For instance, one has to navigate initial denial and blame and then have to handle the cheater's desperate attempts to salvage what remains.

The process of healing is well-understood, but it requires certain actions and mindsets to be employed. To heal means to no longer hold it against the other person, as well. The ultimate question is whether or not you are capable of loving her unconditionally, as time progresses. If she were great to you, would she still be doing you considerable harm due to the past affair?

What happens depends upon your choices and your agreements. I teach a specific form of forgiveness, but *you* don't have to stay with her. Again, it all depends upon your direction and plan to heal. Can you heal and it drastically ceases to bother you? Of course, it can and does all the time. Can you choose to move on and enjoy the love of another? Of course, it can and does all the time.

To heal will require you to let *yourself *off the hook, something that others normally consider letting the cheater "get away" with whatever they did. What she has done is "unforgiveable", ultimately, leaving you with the burden of endless emotional trauma.

To heal or not to heal, that is the question.


----------



## eric1

Cam,

Some distance is not the worst idea in the world. Lonely husband offers sage advice. My only recommendation would be to speak with legal counsel first before distancing yourself. This includes filing paperwork - she NEEDS these consequences on her lap if you're not there for a few days. Otherwise the odds tha she goes back to her boyfriend increase...and sometime in the future you may decide on reconciliation. With an actual physical consequence sitting in her lap the odds of that significantly decrease. It sounds insignificant but protecting all of your options at this point is advisable. 

Best of luck man


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## 225985

OnTheRocks said:


> Notice how things are progressing very quickly, and OP does not answer direct questions?




Agree. There is a lack of emotion being posted. 

OP, do you have any comment on the content of the texts? What did you feel when you read them?


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## TX-SC

I think distance would help you clear your head and make a reasonable and sound decision. If your wife shows remorse and is willing to go to counseling to figure out why she did this, then choosing to R isn't a bad thing. But, it will harder on you to R than to D. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## drifting on

Cam42

This may seem harsh with all that you are going through, but I sincerely do not intend this to be harsh. Your statement of "guys I don't think I can do this" has to end. Your emotions and thought process are very volital at the moment. These emotions, feelings, and unrest will pass. But you will do it, you will make a choice, and that choice is made by you for what is best for you. Do not wallow in pity, instead grieve the death of your marriage. 

Cam42, many things are going to feel insurmountable at the moment, but you will get through this. I couldn't see any light either, I was totally lost, and that's a bad feeling to have. Trust in yourself, heal yourself, put your marriage on the back burner. The feelings of grief, sadness, hopelessness, doubt, and confusion are normal. You need time and space for these feelings to begin to diminish. Humiliation you are feeling is going to be crushing. As you heal yourself these will all begin to diminish. This is when your thought process will begin to start working again. But it takes time. You are in no rush to decide, I'm not allocating for reconciliation or divorce, that is your decision solely. Best of luck.


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## Graywolf2

cam42 said:


> Our youngest daughter had an event that my wife and children attended. I put a smile on for the kids but it was surprising easy because our youngest always puts a smile on my face. I cried at the thought of not being able to see her or our other children everyday. Guys I don't think I can do it. How can I not see my children everyday? I feel so sick thinking about missing her life.
> 
> She also told her mother about the affair and her mother told me she's sorry and she'll love me no matter what I'll decide to do so that was nice.


I could tell from the beginning that you were going to try R. That’s fine so stop agonising about getting a divorce immediately or not. You’re such a family man that you have to give R a good effort and I think you should.

*What I’m telling you is that what you do now sets the tone for the rest of your marriage and life.
*

Your mother in law knows about the affair and likes you. Have your wife go and live with her for a few days. Her mother telling her how stupid she was will do her good. 

See a lawyer and file for divorce. Discuss the terms of divorce with your wife. Give her a few days to let it all sink in. Let the kids go and visit grandma if you need some time to yourself. Otherwise you keep them. That way your wife can see what it's like having the kids part time and what divorce will be like.

Let your wife beg you for another chance. Then and only then give it to her. I hope you have a happy life growing old with your wife.

P.S.

Your wife knows you better than anyone else. You’re so reliable that she took you for granted. She knew that you would never leave her if she was caught. She assumed that a few hugs and a roll in the hay would fix everything. 

You need to shake her up and put some doubt in her mind. You can’t truly appreciate what you have until you almost lose it. If you take her back too easily then your *action* (not words) demonstrates that what she did wasn’t all that bad. If you don’t think its all that bad then why should she and why shouldn’t she do it again? It was fantastic fun. Drive the point home that even to try R is a gift and she shouldn't assume that she's going to get it.


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## straightshooter

cam42 said:


> I'm starting to understand that the problem isn't me. It's her and only her. She got bored of married life and the same routine, she probably would of done this with anyone else as her husband. I'm going to see if I can meet with a lawyer in the upcoming days and go ahead and file. Maybe also make the affair public to her friends and family. I asked her why didn't she just divorce me and she said because she doesn't want a divorce. She said she got selfish and the OM fed her ego and made her feel so wanted. I was told by her that she wanted reconciliation and she understands that it could take years, but she wants to make it work. We will see.


Cam,

Understand this. Telling you she wants to make it work is the standard response. of course she does. The OM threw her under the bus to save his ass and you are one lucky dude in that his wife was an attorney and was willing to give you all the details because you wife would not have. Nor would this affair be over unless they were caught. most adulterers do not plan to leave their spouse and most believe they will not get caught. You need to process everything right now with that in mind.

Also, you stated that even in your gut you are feeling she is missing her boyfriend and is sad. Cam, that is not what she should be feeling. She should be slobbering at your feet begging you for a chance to save the marriage. and you weakening at this point and falling for the sexual manipulation is not a good idea.

She refused to stop this even after she knew you were on to it. That is a bad bad sign. And if your assessment is correct, and she was bored with marriage, there is another Om waiting that will be more than happy to bed her. 

You need to file for divorce ( you can stop this anytime you want to if her actions warrant it, not her words). And Cam, the last thing you need right now is a therapist to tell you to 'get over it" and "suck it up". be very careful and interview any therapist you may engage with. They all have different views on infidelity and some are totally clueless and will tell you actually to play the 'pick me game" and shower her with affection for banging another man to win her back.

You also need to set some expectations IF you decide to stay, and the first one should be that since she used the girls night out on 12/30 to go see her boyfriend, there are no more girls nights out and if any of her friends knew about this or were covering for her they need to be cut out of your life.

A divorce does not instantly occur, but filing sure makes it pretty clear that her life is about to change dramatically for the worse. that is called a consequence and puts the heavy lifting right on her instead of you.

And lastly, i would tell her that at some point in the future she will be sitting with a polygraph examiner and the first question after if she is NC totally will be has she done this with anyone else.
Her reaction will also tell you a lot.


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## Bibi1031

cam42 said:


> Well it was an interesting night. Our youngest daughter had an event that my wife and children attended. I put a smile on for the kids but it was surprising easy because our youngest always puts a smile on my face. *I cried at the thought of not being able to see her or our other children everyday. Guys I don't think I can do it. How can I not see my children everyday?* This is so mentally draining. Our two older ones are teenagers but the youngest is so close to me and me and her do so much together. I feel so sick thinking about missing her life.


I am truly sorry your pain is so raw. It's a nightmare and yes, extremely draining. Been there and don't wish that kind of pain on anyone else.

Time will help with this, actually time is the only thing that will help ease these overwhelming emotions that are so draining. If you allow those feelings to take over, you will take longer to heal. You need professional help for YOU. You also may very well need medication to take off the edge and help you function a bit better. Meds and professional help are not a quick fix, but it helps take that edge off. Time is the only thing that will get you through this and it will take TIME to get to the other side.

Sadly, it was not your choice to put your fulltime dad option in jeopardy, it was your wife's selfish choices. She dropped the bomb in your living room and you were holding it when it exploded. That is why you feel you can't do this. It's because you didn't do it. You are seeing the consequences of what she threw at the family. You were on the direct receiving end of it. You can't do it is right and that is why you didn't do it; and yet now the person that should have seen this coming before it happened just threw it into that stupid box. That has to sink in. You didn't cause this, you are a casualty of the bomb she threw.

You want it all to go away and that is why you think you can fix this by not feeling so overwhelmed and allowing things to get rug swept. After all your wife says she is willing to stay. The affair is over. Well the damage just started. Picking up the pieces after the explosion just started. It is going to be a long haul. 

Your wife can't fix this yet. Hell, she can't even really see the extent of the damage yet because she still can't accept that she caused this $hit. It very hard to accept that we are capable of so much damage for some very foolish and selfish acts. She isn't truly remorseful yet because is she overwhelmed but not like you.

You see the full extent of what she did and just how much you can lose if the family breaks apart. Well, the family is already broken apart. Your innocent children don't know that yet because the explosion didn't hit them directly. Daddy's body minimized the extent of the damage. 

"You can't do this" tells us a lot. Please seek medical help. Please get into IC. Please give yourself some space to just chill. Enjoy the kids and their activities, but stay away from your wife. She needs time to process all this mess too. If she feels guilty, she will get overwhelmed too. It's all part of the process. She unlike you, may indeed feel so overwhelmed that she will decide to leave. That is why space is important. She cannot fix this for YOU. Only you and professional help can attain this.

She is not your loving wife. She hurt you. She can't console you or the feelings of guilt will make her detach from you even more. 

Fence sit this. Don't file, don't reconcile. Just chill and allow time to do its thing. Allow time to do its thing for her as well. Her leaving to mom's is a very good idea. She needs time away too to process all that has transpired.


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## harrybrown

Have her tell the kids why she is going to stay and grandma's house.

And she has to prove to you that she is not cheating while you are separated.

She still does not show remorse. She is talking, but has she told the OM's family and started to protect you instead of the OM?

Has she stopped all contact and is he gone from the workplace?

If she is still working with him, she has not stopped contact.

I do not think that this is her first A. She will do this again. Have her leave, you can still see the kids that way.


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## Evinrude58

I agree with giving it time. 
I don't agree with not filing. 

He needs to send a very clear message by ACTION to his wife: infidelity won't be tolerated. And that can only be done by filing for divorce. We all agree he needs to get away from the wife for a while.
IF OP wants any chance of reconciling, then he needs to make clear consequences of what the results of infidelity are to him. I think she'll cheat again anyway. She hasn't even tried to blameshift him. This is clearly all on her. If he wasn't a pretty darned good husband, she'd be blameshifting and making him feel like this was all his fault I see no evidence of that. Is it a good thing for her wanting to reconcile that they had a pretty good marriage? Yes. However, if he was a pretty good husband and she still cheated........................
What's he going to do to get her not to cheat? Be a bad husband?

Regardless of what OP wants, he'd better file for divorce. There's a huge chance that the OP will be forced to divorce anyway, because it's obvious she is not in love with the OP. If he files now and gets things done when she might actually have some guilt, he might get a decent divorce agreement. Once she's over the guilt, she will start to blameshift for sure, and then the fair divorce is completely out the window.

I find the absence of emotion over the texts troubling as to the reality of this. If he saw texts, he'd likely want to drop off some comments on here that were particularly eating away at his soul. I know I did. OP has barely mentioned the texts.

I hope OP is real and that he is getting help. I agree that a he needs professional help to get over this truly traumatizing, life-altering betrayal.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Cam,

I have been thinking about your situation all morning. Somewhat similar to mine. A suggestion for you is to ask your WW one question, that being "Why"? The when she gives answers keep probing her with questions. Strongly recommend is a polygraph as one member of the thread provided you with the questions to ask. I would add one to that list. "Do you love LH?" That is solely for the purpose of really putting her on the hot seat. That is one of the eight questions I had the gentlemen ask my wife. I did it for shock value.

Next, I for several days, kept a list of why I should reconcile and why I should divorce. Every day I would update the list based on how I was feeling. It was a tremendous help just to get my thoughts out of my head and on paper. It helped me get to a point of clarity where I could think and analyze my options.

I think you have been reminded, but do not do what I did and that is hit the liquor. Only makes things worse.Thankfully,I got my head out of my ass and focused more on getting in the best shape I could be in case I decided to D.

I would avoid her as much as possible and implement a 180 if she stays in the house. Sleep in separate rooms if you can. I hate to say it but I got much satisfaction letting my FWW know I would be just fine without her and I dressed her down like a recruit at Parris.
I did the opposite of what she would expect. However, she came around and realized what a stupid ass decision she made. I just celebrated my 31st anniversary last week. So keep your options open at this point in time. Your emotions are raw, you are hurting more than you ever have, and the worst thing you can do as I stated earlier is make a decision.

I would get divorce petition and related documentation drawn up by your legal counsel and consider having your wife served. This will put you in the drivers' seat. I had my documents drafted along with a property settlement and had my businesses valued to let my FWW the **** was going to hit the fan. I never had her served, but I let her know what I had prepared and it was on the ground of adultery. Looking back, I wish I had had my wife served. Should you decided to have papers served, be sure and let her mom know.

Good luck and stay strong and as my favorite person in history Sir Winston says, "When you are going through hell keep on going".


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## cam42

First off I did not have the courage to read all of the texts even though the woman married to her affair partner had them all, it's something I think I didn't need to know. How am I supposed to show emotion on this here. I try not to look at the comments about it because it does hurt. She sexted him and told him she has feelings for him him, is that supposed to make me feel good? It makes me feel numb. Her and the other man did most of their conversation at work. They're co-workers remember. I haven't read every single text and don't want too. The other woman mostly just summarized everything while me looking at some texts and told me the most important ones. Why am I going to dwell on something that obviously hurts me? 

She told me she loves me but I'd like her to take a polygraph as well seeing if that's true and if she has had any affairs in the past. The other man will be out of this job by Saturday. My wife has surprisingly agreed to spend a few days at her mothers house, she does not want to be away long though. I want to Reconcile, but this will probably end in a divorce.


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## GusPolinski

cam42 said:


> First off I did not have the courage to read all of the texts even though the woman married to her affair partner had them all, it's something I think I didn't need to know. How am I supposed to show emotion on this here. I try not to look at the comments about it because it does hurt. She sexted him and told him she has feelings for him him, is that supposed to make me feel good? It makes me feel numb. Her and the other man did most of their conversation at work. They're co-workers remember. I haven't read every single text and don't want too. The other woman mostly just summarized everything while me looking at some texts and told me the most important ones. *Why am I going to dwell on something that obviously hurts me?*
> 
> She told me she loves me but I'd like her to take a polygraph as well seeing if that's true and if she has had any affairs in the past. The other man will be out of this job by Saturday. My wife has surprisingly agreed to spend a few days at her mothers house, she does not want to be away long though. I want to Reconcile, but this will probably end in a divorce.


Because it's the truth.

Ignore it at your peril.


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## dubsey

you want to read them because otherwise, you'll have this empty area of a jigsaw puzzle staring you in the face for the rest of your life. You'll never know what fills the empty space, but you'll keep filling it with the worst things your mind will allow.

you're better off knowing what goes in the space.


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## GusPolinski

Let's say there's a text in there along the lines of...

"Ugh. Husband just left for work. Gave me a kiss. Talk about disgusting. I swear if it weren't for these kids I'd be long gone."

You'd want to see that, right?


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## MyRevelation

cam42 said:


> Why am I going to dwell on something that obviously hurts me?


Then, how do you know what you are reconciling from or forgiving?

Seriously, having the info and refusing to look at it while considering R is the very definition of rugsweeping. It's the ostrich approach to R ... like saying "well, if I didn't see it, it didn't happen".

Sorry, cam ... we all know what a shock this all is and that you're hurt, but damn, at least face it with your eyes open. Do you have any idea how many BH's wish they had the whole truth? You've got it, and won't even look at it. Now, if your plan is to D, then you've got enough already, but if you're considering R ... and you are ... then you are cheating yourself out of a chance to make a fully informed decision about the rest of your life.


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## cam42

I'd like for them to be read at a counseling session with my wife present, she needs to understand the severity of what she did if were ever gonna get through this. Also what good is it for me to look at more messages of them sexting? I don't know what to ****ing know what they did with each other. I've read the worst ones, what the hell is the point of me to just read the fillers? I know the worst of what was said. 

Edit : I'm not trying to be rude. I know you guys are right and want what's best for me. I do need to man up and read all of them. Perhaps when she leaves to her mothers.


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## MyRevelation

cam42 said:


> I'd like for them to be read at a counseling session with my wife present,


She doesn't need the emails read to her, she already knows what they say... YOU'RE the one that needs that info and you need it now, not in a few weeks in front of some counselor that likely doesn't know squat about infidelity. This is YOUR life and YOU have valuable information that will affect the rest of YOUR life. You've already been cheated on ... don't cheat yourself, too.


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## ABHale

The reason to read them is to see your wife's true colors. 

You love your wife right. Could you do to her what she has done to you?

Your wife doesn't love you in the same way you love her. You love your kids, parents, friends and wife in different ways. Your wife loves you as a friend/roommate not as a lover. That was the OM's position.


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## Bibi1031

cam42 said:


> I'd like for them to be read at a counseling session with my wife present, she needs to understand the severity of what she did if were ever gonna get through this. Also what good is it for me to look at more messages of them sexting? I don't know what to ****ing know what they did with each other. I've read the worst ones, what the hell is the point of me to just read the fillers? I know the worst of what was said.
> 
> Edit : I'm not trying to be rude. I know you guys are right and want what's best for me. I do need to man up and read all of them. Perhaps when she leaves to her mothers.


Don't worry about not being able to process too much of the $hit sandwich you are having to swallow. Everything has its time and place in this journey you have been thrown into. 

You want to R and that is a good thing. You do have a chance. But you need to realize that your wife is not being truly honest with you. She may be thinking that she doesn't love you and is staying in the marriage for many other reasons and not the ONE that should count the most. She needs to honestly fall back IN LOVE with you. She most certainly isn't right now. OM is in her heart and not you. There is no way around this awful truth. That is why she cheated. She thought she deserved to find love and happiness again in the arms of another come hell or high water. Well, hell and high water are at her doorstep.

Yes, you two need counseling but NOT marriage counseling yet. It will be a failure. YOU need IC first and then start couples counseling. You are not a couple yet anymore. Your marriage is broken because now you two are broken. You need to fix yourself a bit and she needed to have done this before the affair started and she fell into THAT trap. Her selfish act only compounded the problem even further. This may very well end up in divorce; hopefully not though. We are after all pro marriage and that is why most of us come to TAM.


----------



## sokillme

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Cam,
> 
> I have been thinking about your situation all morning. Somewhat similar to mine. A suggestion for you is to ask your WW one question, that being "Why"?


The answer to that question is really just because they could and they wanted too. If it were any different then every woman in her situation whatever it was would cheat, most don't. Cheaters cheat because they can. Putting some other reason on it just makes it less traumatizing to the BS, because no one wants to live with someone who could do something so monstrous because they are selfish. 

Plenty of people have family issues and never think of cheating. Many people have been cheated on and never think of cheating. Many people have spouses that abuse them and never cheat. Cheaters cheat because they are selfish and have poor boundaries, and really don't care who they hurt at the time. They know it's awful, why else would they keep it a secret. 

OP and all BS are better off seeing it for what it is. At least it will take some of the bloom off the rose and keep them be more aware of what their WS is, and what they are capable of.


----------



## sokillme

Bibi1031 said:


> You want to R and that is a good thing.



R is not definitively a good thing. Not if he is going to end up miserable. Many, many people who R are not very happy. 

Read this and tell me for how many of these men R was a good thing with wives the have absolutely no respect for. The end of the post has men years out. Do they sound happy? 

I am pro OP, not marriage. What is a good thing, It's for OP to do what will make him healthiest, and what will make his children healthiest?


----------



## drifting on

Cam42

If you feel you can read the texts then do it, if you can't then don't. I say this because only you know what you can handle. If I were you I would read them. I needed to know all the details, but not everyone is this way. Arguments to read and not read the texts can go on forever, but only you know what you can handle. 

As for your wife going to her moms house, ask her how long she is willing to go for. If she says two days then tell her a week. Tell her the minimum time you will allow is a week. If she begins to defend her decision tell her she just failed your first test. Remind her that she said she would don anything for the marriage, but that by arguing over how long she has also found a restriction as to how far anything is. Tell her anything is just that, tell her anything is also including to do what you need for you. If you want to crush her a little bit tell her she gave OM six months and can't give you a week. See what her response is to that. 

Don't be afraid to show her your anger when it comes within reason. She needs to know you are angry, if you cry uncontrollably be sure she sees it two or three times. This is very humiliating to the wayward spouse, they see the consequence of their choice. 

Whatever you eventually choose to do I'll try to help you. However, be sure you choose what is best for you and you only. As hard as this is to say the children are not first anymore, your well being is what has to come first. You can't care for others if you are not healthy.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

cam42 said:


> First off I did not have the courage to read all of the texts even though the woman married to her affair partner had them all, it's something I think I didn't need to know. How am I supposed to show emotion on this here. I try not to look at the comments about it because it does hurt. She sexted him and told him she has feelings for him him, is that supposed to make me feel good? It makes me feel numb. Her and the other man did most of their conversation at work. They're co-workers remember. I haven't read every single text and don't want too. The other woman mostly just summarized everything while me looking at some texts and told me the most important ones. Why am I going to dwell on something that obviously hurts me?
> 
> She told me she loves me but I'd like her to take a polygraph as well seeing if that's true and if she has had any affairs in the past. The other man will be out of this job by Saturday. My wife has surprisingly agreed to spend a few days at her mothers house, she does not want to be away long though. I want to Reconcile, but this will probably end in a divorce.


Knowing what happened is one thing, demanding video recordings of every interaction is another, analogously.



GusPolinski said:


> Because it's the truth.
> 
> Ignore it at your peril.





GusPolinski said:


> Let's say there's a text in there along the lines of...
> 
> "Ugh. Husband just left for work. Gave me a kiss. Talk about disgusting. I swear if it weren't for these kids I'd be long gone."
> 
> You'd want to see that, right?


It is normal for there to be externalized negativity. Does anyone want/need to know every negative thought or utterance from their romantic partner?



cam42 said:


> I'd like for them to be read at a counseling session with my wife present, she needs to understand the severity of what she did if were ever gonna get through this. Also what good is it for me to look at more messages of them sexting? I don't know what to ****ing know what they did with each other. I've read the worst ones, what the hell is the point of me to just read the fillers? I know the worst of what was said.
> 
> Edit : I'm not trying to be rude. I know you guys are right and want what's best for me. I do need to man up and read all of them. Perhaps when she leaves to her mothers.


That is not the best way of her coming to reality. Some recommend this to *harden
* the stance NOT to forgive. Specifically, Richard Bandler, PhD, recommends acts like this for individuals to move on. It is a tool meant to program the subconscious to ensure one to let go of their ex or not agree to reconciliation because of xyz atrocious acts. If I were to devise a process of reconciliation (like this), it would be the 2nd most painful and most unsuccessful that I could imagine.


----------



## Bibi1031

@sokillme ; Your logic is ME centered. You are no different than his cheating wife. He is NOT like that yet and hopefully never will be. This makes him a good candidate for reconciliation. * His wife may not be and that is what he needs the time for. * 

He needs to see that she can be all about the whole family, but she needs to love HIM to be successful. He is capable of forgiving, but it will take time. She is the problem, NOT him. He wants to reconcile; a good counselor can help him successfully navigate true forgiveness for his wife. 

If, in time, she is genuinely remorseful and figures out that she does love her husband; then and only then does this marriage stand a chance. 

Don't take me wrong. In my personal opinion, I would walk away. I knew I couldn't forgive the X because I NEVER saw true remorse. I didn't wait long enough and my gut was spot on in my decision. He gut wants to fight for the marriage. His wife wants that too even if it is for different reasons. The R card is available in this case. 

Anyone that is going through this hell and the R card is offered and accepted by both parties, why not take it? There is little to lose as a whole family in giving this that chance and very much to gain. JMHO in this particular case.


----------



## Chaparral

If I remember correctly, she kept up an active sex life with you. That is very unusual if she was in fact truly in love with the Posom. My thought is she was in it more for thrills and giggles. Even if she was professing her love for him in the texts. They could well have been playing each other. Polygraph.

In regards to you reading the texts, if his wife told you you had seen the worst of them I would take her at her word. Do what you want to with them, this is your show now.

Regarding crying in front of her. You tell her that unless she has been cheated on, she has no idea what pain she has caused you. Let her know the damage she has done to you, to your image of her and by hurting you under you her children. That if you do end up divorcing your children will know what she has done. Crying in front of her is generally believed to show weakness in husbands. Instead show her your steely resolve to not be fvcked with face. Show the kids and everyone else you happy, friendly face. Do not be mean or angry with her, be indifferent. Fake it till you make it.

Do you have a list of books she is or should be reading?

There are horror stories here about counselors. If they fit fine. If they don't find new ones. Both MCs and ICs can be worse than useless. You may even have PTSD. It's very common for betrayed spouses. For that you need EMDR with a qualified counselor.

Good luck and prayers.


----------



## sokillme

Bibi1031 said:


> @sokillme ; Your logic is ME centered. You are no different than his cheating wife. He is NOT like that yet and hopefully never will be. This makes him a good candidate for reconciliation. * His wife may not be and that is what he needs the time for. *
> 
> He needs to see that she can be all about the whole family, but she needs to love HIM to be successful. He is capable of forgiving, but it will take time. She is the problem, NOT him. He wants to reconcile; a good counselor can help him successfully navigate true forgiveness for his wife.
> 
> If, in time, she is genuinely remorseful and figures out that she does love her husband; then and only then does this marriage stand a chance.
> 
> Don't take me wrong. In my personal opinion, I would walk away. I knew I couldn't forgive the X because I NEVER saw true remorse. I didn't wait long enough and my gut was spot on in my decision. He gut wants to fight for the marriage. His wife wants that too even if it is for different reasons. The R card is available in this case.
> 
> Anyone that is going through this hell and the R card is offered and accepted by both parties, why not take it? There is little to lose as a whole family in giving this that chance and very much to gain. JMHO in this particular case.


There is a whole he11 of a lot to lose, such as daily happiness. 

Here are are two post from long term sufferers who make my point for me. There is a GREAT DEAL to lose. 

He is in shock and has no idea what he wants to do. He doesn't even know who his wife is yet and you are recommending R? Besides he can't fight for the marriage his wife has to. I mean what has shown you his wife wants to fight for the marriage because she says she is sorry and hugs him when he is crying? Is that really all it takes? With all due respect, I think you're the one with logic that is ME centered, you said so yourself you are pro marriage.

Right now OP should be focusing on healing and that is about all. He needs to separate emotionally from his wife. Then he can make an informed decision if he wants to R or not. 

The question is not can they still have a marriage but what kind of marriage are they going to have. Right now it's way to soon to tell.


----------



## Grapes

sokillme said:


> There is a whole he11 of a lot to lose, such as daily happiness.
> 
> Here are are two post from long term sufferers who make my point for me. There is a GREAT DEAL to lose.
> 
> He is in shock and has no idea what he wants to do. He doesn't even know who his wife is yet and you are recommending R? Besides he can't fight for the marriage his wife has to. I mean what has shown you his wife wants to fight for the marriage because she says she is sorry and hugs him when he is crying? Is that really all it takes? With all due respect, I think you're the one with logic that is ME centered, you said so yourself you are pro marriage.
> 
> Right now OP should be focusing on healing and that is about all. He needs to separate emotionally from his wife. Then he can make an informed decision if he wants to R or not.
> 
> The question is not can they still have a marriage but what kind of marriage are they going to have. Right now it's way to soon to tell.


that first link is a tough read  ugh!


----------



## Bibi1031

sokillme said:


> There is a whole he11 of a lot to lose, such as daily happiness.
> 
> Here are are two post from long term sufferers who make my point for me. There is a GREAT DEAL to lose.
> 
> He is in shock and has no idea what he wants to do. He doesn't even know who his wife is yet and *you are recommending R*? Besides he can't fight for the marriage his wife has to. I mean what has shown you his wife wants to fight for the marriage because she says she is sorry and hugs him when he is crying? Is that really all it takes? With all due respect, I think you're the one with logic that is ME centered, you said so yourself you are pro marriage.
> 
> Right now OP should be focusing on healing and that is about all. He needs to separate emotionally from his wife. Then he can make an informed decision if he wants to R or not.
> 
> The question is not can they still have a marriage but what kind of marriage are they going to have. Right now it's way to soon to tell.



I'm not recommending R. He and his wife want this route. He is going to do what he feels is best for HIM and his family at this point in time. My recommendation was to FENCE SIT and just chill for a bit. If he truly can't wait and decides one way or the other, that is entirely his choice and that is good. It is good for HIM. 

He may decide in the future that what he believed now may not be the correct route for him. That is ALL part of the process. Even doing nothing right now is part of the process. Most of you want him to file and I don't agree with that, but that is me and my opinion may be wrong. I don't argue with those that want him to file. I understand that they are posting based on their experiences. Well, so am I like most of us here and we are trying to also allow Cam42 to make his choice. We simply want him to go into that choice with his eyes WIDE open and that is really all. Opinions are just that; opinions and they may differ slightly.


----------



## Bibi1031

Relationship Teacher said:


> That is not the best way of her coming to reality. Some recommend this to *harden
> * the stance NOT to forgive. Specifically, Richard Bandler, PhD, recommends acts like this for individuals to move on. It is a tool meant to program the subconscious to ensure one to let go of their ex or not agree to reconciliation because of xyz atrocious acts. If I were to devise a process of reconciliation (like this), it would be the 2nd most painful and most unsuccessful that I could imagine.


QFT


----------



## sokillme

Bibi1031 said:


> I'm not recommending R. He and his wife want this route. He is going to do what he feels is best for HIM and his family at this point in time. My recommendation was to FENCE SIT and just chill for a bit. If he truly can't wait and decides one way or the other, that is entirely his choice and that is good. It is good for HIM.


Well, this I agree with. But I think people want him to file so that there are some consequences for her. 

I must be said that when someone shows you they are capable of such terrible acts you must be weary of them. Not everyone can do such despicable acts and it is naive to assume that they didn't know that it would cause such great damage. Remember there is a reason why they kept it secret. I really believe only someone emotionally retarded would not know this. Again if you are so emotionally retarded then you probably are not a good choice to be in a relationship with.


----------



## GusPolinski

Relationship Teacher said:


> It is normal for there to be externalized negativity. Does anyone want/need to know every negative thought or utterance from their romantic partner?


LOL. That is _amazingly_ obtuse.

Either way, when weighing reconciliation vs divorce, absolutely, yes -- I'd think that a given BS would want to know _precisely_ what his or her WS thought of him/her, the marriage, etc while in the affair.

After all, you can't really make an informed decision unless you're informed.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

GusPolinski said:


> LOL. That is _amazingly_ obtuse.
> 
> Either way, when weighing reconciliation vs divorce, absolutely, yes -- I'd think that a given BS would want to know _precisely_ what his or her WS thought of him/her, the marriage, etc while in the affair.
> 
> After all, you can't really make an informed decision unless you're informed.


Do you understand the logical extrapolations of that assertion?

Ultimately, the problem is that the negativity is expected in times of heightened emotional activity. It is hurtful, but entirely normal. Such things come from weakness, not from cool-headed logic, so what is the ultimate point of using it to show what a horrible person she is/was? The same thoughts/expressions can come from a faithful couple that happens to be bickering. Also, it just gives him more to suffer from. I don't ever advise complacency or for one to bury one's head in the sand - he knows what happened, he just hasn't seen the movie.

In regards to reconciliation, things like that are "to be understood" for reconciliation to commence. Given your well-known stance on affairs, I see where you are coming from, but urge reconsideration of this tactic for the stated purposes.


----------



## Evinrude58

That's all the texts were is sexting?
There was no discussion at all about the OP?

The part of the texts that I would be interested in were the comments about the OP that gave him insight to how she felt about the OP AT THAT TIME.
Because let's face it, if it weren't for getting caught and dumped by the OM, she'd still feel that way. IT"S HOW SHE REALLY FEELS.

How she really feels, without the pressure of losing her marriage and breaking up her family is what I'd believe. Not what she's spouting under the fear of divorce.

OP is ALREADY saying that he wants to reconcile, and he's not even read the texts and gotten the full story. I don't think that's wise. I wish he'd just wait things out and see how he feels in 6 months, preferably after staying separated from her for a while. Right now is not the time to make any decision.

Having a desire to reconcile is going to cause OP to do the WRONG THINGS like hysterical bond, forgive her too quickly, nice her back, let her rug sweep what she did, and the end result will be a wife that still has no respect for her husband and will cheat again.

If OP files and doesn't go running back in her open arms that have been wrapped around the OM for 6 months, she might develop a little respect for him. She will know he has more self-respect than to accept the **** sandwich she's dished out to him.

There is no hurry to reconcile, there's no hurry to divorce. Either path should start with divorce papers being served. She needs to know he is seriously angry, hurt, and ready to send her FLYING out the door.

OP, I wanted reconciliation as well. My ex wife wasn't interested. She wanted to chase other ****s, and told me so. Wanted a rich man that would treat her like a princess, and told me so. I tell you this because I would wish you had a chance for true reconciliation if it looked like it was possible. Maybe it will one day. NOT NOW. It looks like she is covering her ass and just wants her stable home that YOU provided and she didn't appreciate.
I don't have all the answers for you. But I can tell you that I firmly believe that once a woman falls out of love with a man, it rarely if ever comes back. And I believe that based on what you've said, your wife was in love with this other man, and therefore she can't possibly be in love with you so soon.

The regret and desire she is showing you is out of fear, not love. So my suggestion is that you don't even consider reconciling, especially letting her know you're considering it, until you are sure that she actually loves YOU and wants YOU.


----------



## GusPolinski

Relationship Teacher said:


> Do you understand the logical extrapolations of that assertion?
> 
> Ultimately, the problem is that the negativity is expected in times of heightened emotional activity. It is hurtful, but entirely normal. Such things come from weakness, not from cool-headed logic, so what is the ultimate point of using it to show what a horrible person she is/was? The same thoughts/expressions can come from a faithful couple that happens to be bickering. Also, it just gives him more to suffer from. I don't ever advise complacency or for one to bury one's head in the sand - he knows what happened, he just hasn't seen the movie.
> 
> In regards to reconciliation, things like that are "to be understood" for reconciliation to commence. Given your well-known stance on affairs, I see where you are coming from, but urge reconsideration of this tactic for the stated purposes.


Blah blah blah.

Blah blah blah.

Blah blah blah blah blah.

More later. (Once I stop laughing.)


----------



## Relationship Teacher

GusPolinski said:


> Blah blah blah.
> 
> Blah blah blah.
> 
> Blah blah blah blah blah.
> 
> More later. (Once I stop laughing.)


Serious problems demand serious (efficacy) solutions.


----------



## straightshooter

cam42 said:


> I'd like for them to be read at a counseling session with my wife present, she needs to understand the severity of what she did if were ever gonna get through this. Also what good is it for me to look at more messages of them sexting? I don't know what to ****ing know what they did with each other. I've read the worst ones, what the hell is the point of me to just read the fillers? I know the worst of what was said.
> 
> Edit : I'm not trying to be rude. I know you guys are right and want what's best for me. I do need to man up and read all of them. Perhaps when she leaves to her mothers.



Cam,

It is not a matter of "manning up". It is a matter of making a very serious decision with ALL of the facts. You do not want to decide either way wondering if what is in those texts makes a difference.
You have been given a gift that most do not have, and that is an other betrayed spouse who has all of the information to enable you to know it all.
If you read a wayward forum, they are told to tell EVERYTHING and hold back nothing because it is bull **** claiming to not want to hurt BH. Yes it is going to be painful and you may be better off doing it without her there but you are going to be in limbo wondering if you do not know the truth. 

And do the polygraph. If she has cheated before she will recoil in horror when you demand that because she will know she is a goner. Schedule the test ( we can give you advice on questions and how to choose an examiner), and no matter do not cancel it. if she has cheated before you may get some trickle truth in an attempt to make you think you have it all.

Hang in there Cam, but now is NOT the time to tread water. We know how difficult it is. most of us have been there before. But we also know it is a big decision, involving years and years of tough stuff , to get over this. And it cannot be done guessing at what you do not know.


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
It would seem that your decision to file D or R has caused quite a debate. There are points to be made on both sides but I would like to offer you some food for thought. The premise, if I understand correctly, behind filing immediately is to force your W to feel some pain. This will prove futile unless she feels YOUR pain. She may feel pain from a D but what pain will that be. If her angst is not derived from and focused on what she has done to you then it will not prove fruitful to her changing.

Some argue that you need to read every single bit of information available so that you "can know what you are forgiving" but I posit that what you are forgiving is her. Furthermore, to know every detail of what that woman did with the OM I do not see as necessarily beneficial since, if your marriage is to continue, it will not be with that woman. If any part of that woman remains then your R will be hollow and futile. So then, if you need to read the information then by all means do so but realize that the woman that committed those acts and the woman you will attempt to R with are not one in the same.

Similarly, file for D if that is what you feel is necessary but realize that any pain that she feels from an impending D may actually diminish your ability to see her true feelings. In other words, do you want her to R with you because she fears losing her "comfort zone" life? Or do you wish a R based on her fear and angst over losing you? Her fear of losing her "stuff" may elicit behavior that mimics remorse or contrition but it could be insincere and prompted out of fear rather than a deep caring for you.

Some have said not to let her see your emotions. They say that women respect strength. Is not any woman who can be so easily manipulated in serious jeopardy of falling for any other "strong" man? I do not believe that all women are so gullible and limbic driven. If your W cannot empathize with your pain and deep feelings of loss and betrayal then all of the stoicism in the world will not keep her long term.

The bottom line here is that in order for any R to be successful the WS HAS to realize, understand, feel, and react accordingly, not from the threat of D or the hard gaze of an iron man but from within her, with her emotion. That is the only way it can be real. The woman that did this to you could not do this and if there is to be any chance at R that woman must yield way completely to a woman that can. If she cannot find that woman within her then R will not be successful. So you see the quest is hers much more so than yours. If that woman is in there then your R can be as good or better than anything you had before but if she is not, then you can only have exactly what you had before, more of the same and you will find yourself here again telling us another story. Consider this carefully.


----------



## Popcorn2015

ulyssesheart said:


> That is the common and legal definition of conflict of interest. She would be a biased Attorney. An attorney for both, though representing opposite sides.
> 
> In reality, there is no conflict of interest between the two BS's. It would be *a collusion of interests*.


No judge would allow that in their courtroom and few lawyers would be crazy enough to try. OP is free to discuss the situation with the other betrayed spouse, but he needs someone else to be his lawyer.


----------



## sokillme

Evinrude58 said:


> That's all the texts were is sexting?
> There was no discussion at all about the OP?
> 
> The part of the texts that I would be interested in were the comments about the OP that gave him insight to how she felt about the OP AT THAT TIME.
> Because let's face it, if it weren't for getting caught and dumped by the OM, she'd still feel that way. IT"S HOW SHE REALLY FEELS.
> 
> How she really feels, without the pressure of losing her marriage and breaking up her family is what I'd believe. Not what she's spouting under the fear of divorce.
> 
> OP is ALREADY saying that he wants to reconcile, and he's not even read the texts and gotten the full story. I don't think that's wise. I wish he'd just wait things out and see how he feels in 6 months, preferably after staying separated from her for a while. Right now is not the time to make any decision.
> 
> Having a desire to reconcile is going to cause OP to do the WRONG THINGS like hysterical bond, forgive her too quickly, nice her back, let her rug sweep what she did, and the end result will be a wife that still has no respect for her husband and will cheat again.
> 
> If OP files and doesn't go running back in her open arms that have been wrapped around the OM for 6 months, she might develop a little respect for him. She will know he has more self-respect than to accept the **** sandwich she's dished out to him.
> 
> There is no hurry to reconcile, there's no hurry to divorce. Either path should start with divorce papers being served. She needs to know he is seriously angry, hurt, and ready to send her FLYING out the door.
> 
> OP, I wanted reconciliation as well. My ex wife wasn't interested. She wanted to chase other ****s, and told me so. Wanted a rich man that would treat her like a princess, and told me so. I tell you this because I would wish you had a chance for true reconciliation if it looked like it was possible. Maybe it will one day. NOT NOW. It looks like she is covering her ass and just wants her stable home that YOU provided and she didn't appreciate.
> I don't have all the answers for you. But I can tell you that I firmly believe that once a woman falls out of love with a man, it rarely if ever comes back. And I believe that based on what you've said, your wife was in love with this other man, and therefore she can't possibly be in love with you so soon.
> 
> The regret and desire she is showing you is out of fear, not love. So my suggestion is that you don't even consider reconciling, especially letting her know you're considering it, until you are sure that she actually loves YOU and wants YOU.


You also don't want a partner who is their with you on the basis of penalty and the possibility of divorce, this is not any way to live. Seems that is what you got right now. Wouldn't you rather be with someone who wants to be with you because they love you? I mean true live not the fickle kind that finds a new port when live is busy.


----------



## sokillme

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> It would seem that your decision to file D or R has caused quite a debate. There are points to be made on both sides but I would like to offer you some food for thought. The premise, if I understand correctly, behind filing immediately is to force your W to feel some pain. This will prove futile unless she feels YOUR pain. She may feel pain from a D but what pain will that be. If her angst is not derived from and focused on what she has done to you then it will not prove fruitful to her changing.
> 
> Some argue that you need to read every single bit of information available so that you "can know what you are forgiving" but I posit that what you are forgiving is her. Furthermore, to know every detail of what that woman did with the OM I do not see as necessarily beneficial since, if your marriage is to continue, it will not be with that woman. If any part of that woman remains then your R will be hollow and futile. So then, if you need to read the information then by all means do so but realize that the woman that committed those acts and the woman you will attempt to R with are not one in the same.
> 
> Similarly, file for D if that is what you feel is necessary but realize that any pain that she feels from an impending D may actually diminish your ability to see her true feelings. In other words, do you want her to R with you because she fears losing her "comfort zone" life? Or do you wish a R based on her fear and angst over losing you? Her fear of losing her "stuff" may elicit behavior that mimics remorse or contrition but it could be insincere and prompted out of fear rather than a deep caring for you.
> 
> Some have said not to let her see your emotions. They say that women respect strength. Is not any woman who can be so easily manipulated in serious jeopardy of falling for any other "strong" man? I do not believe that all women are so gullible and limbic driven. If your W cannot empathize with your pain and deep feelings of loss and betrayal then all of the stoicism in the world will not keep her long term.
> 
> The bottom line here is that in order for any R to be successful the WS HAS to realize, understand, feel, and react accordingly, not from the threat of D or the hard gaze of an iron man but from within her, with her emotion. That is the only way it can be real. The woman that did this to you could not do this and if there is to be any chance at R that woman must yield way completely to a woman that can. If she cannot find that woman within her then R will not be successful. So you see the quest is hers much more so than yours. If that woman is in there then your R can be as good or better than anything you had before but if she is not, then you can only have exactly what you had before, more of the same and you will find yourself here again telling us another story. Consider this carefully.


The risk is that many WS don't have the ability to feel others pain, not in the way healthy people do. It is part of their brokenness. It's why they can sleep like babies while doing horrible stuff while the rest of us would be losing our hair. You guys give them too much credit.


----------



## Evinrude58

My position on filing is that he needs to show her that what she has done warrants divorce, and that he's actually willing to do it.

It's not to scare her into reconciling--- she already says she wants that.
It's to show her the consequences of her actions, and to fear them were she to ever consider cheating again.

If he takes her back after what she has done with little more than an "I'm angry and hurt" response, I feel this is sure to be a repeat performance.

I think it will be anyway, but were I to be wrong, I still stand by the serving her papers suggestion.

She needs to at least know that consequences exist, and that he's not just upset, he's losing his feelings for HER.


----------



## ABHale

Good night people. She was going out on dates with this POSOM. Wine and dine in public where anyone could see that they were a couple. They were not trying to hide it. She didn't care, yes he needs to know what was being planed and said. This has to be the biggest kick in the nuts I have read on here. 

She was making it public for a reason. The text messages might revile that reason. So yes, OP needs to read them. 

With the way they were going on I believe they planned on leaving their SO's and getting together. But the POSOM back out when his wife caught him. Why else would you be so open about it.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

Evinrude58 said:


> My position on filing is that he needs to show her that what she has done warrants divorce, and that he's actually willing to do it.
> 
> It's not to scare her into reconciling--- she already says she wants that.
> It's to show her the consequences of her actions, and to fear them were she to ever consider cheating again.
> 
> If he takes her back after what she has done with little more than an "I'm angry and hurt" response, I feel this is sure to be a repeat performance.
> 
> I think it will be anyway, but were I to be wrong, I still stand by the serving her papers suggestion.
> 
> She needs to at least know that consequences exist, and that he's not just upset, he's losing his feelings for HER.


Relationships are to have standards, as such, agreeing to forward-looking standards ensures there is no repeat performance. Being hyper-vigilant in regards to anticipated future cheating dooms relationships.



ABHale said:


> She was making it public for a reason. The text messages might revile that reason. So yes, OP needs to read them.
> 
> With the way they were going on I believe they planned on leaving their SO's and getting together. But the POSOM back out when his wife caught him. Why else would you be so open about it.


This sounds like a conspiracy theory.


..........


Everyone should ask themselves whether their pet hypothesis has empirical support. Research focused on infidelity is not where it needs to be, but there is still plenty one can garner from what has been published. A popular treatment model is "forgiveness-based", fyi. Much of what is being tossed around here guarantees that she is punished for what she's done and that he is left with the burden of betrayal, with the only reprieve coming IF her punishment is fully experienced. Regardless of the outcome, OP needs to heal. To heal demands forgiveness. What occurred must no longer be emotionally traumatic.


----------



## ABHale

Relationship Teacher said:


> Relationships are to have standards, as such, agreeing to forward-looking standards ensures there is no repeat performance. Being hyper-vigilant in regards to anticipated future cheating dooms relationships.
> 
> 
> 
> This sounds like a conspiracy theory.
> 
> 
> ..........
> 
> 
> Everyone should ask themselves whether their pet hypothesis has empirical support. Research focused on infidelity is not where it needs to be, but there is still plenty one can garner from what has been published. A popular treatment model is "forgiveness-based", fyi. Much of what is being tossed around here guarantees that she is punished for what she's done and that he is left with the burden of betrayal, with the only reprieve coming IF her punishment is fully experienced. Regardless of the outcome, OP needs to heal. To heal demands forgiveness. What occurred must no longer be emotionally traumatic.


Forgiveness yes, staying with a lying, cheating w***e, never.


----------



## Evinrude58

Relationship Teacher said:


> Relationships are to have standards, as such, agreeing to forward-looking standards ensures there is no repeat performance. Being hyper-vigilant in regards to anticipated future cheating dooms relationships.
> 
> 
> 
> This sounds like a conspiracy theory.
> 
> 
> ..........
> 
> 
> Everyone should ask themselves whether their pet hypothesis has empirical support. Research focused on infidelity is not where it needs to be, but there is still plenty one can garner from what has been published. A popular treatment model is "forgiveness-based", fyi. Much of what is being tossed around here guarantees that she is punished for what she's done and that he is left with the burden of betrayal, with the only reprieve coming IF her punishment is fully experienced. Regardless of the outcome, OP needs to heal. To heal demands forgiveness. What occurred must no longer be emotionally traumatic.


I read a lot of your posts and can see some logic in them. I don't see it in this.
One can't rebuild a relationship with an unrepentant cheater as she is described.
One week she's holding hands, laughing with OM and her buddies, this week she's caught and dumped, and suddenly found her love for her husband. I'm starting to doubt this more and more, however, if it's real the OP must know he's being majorly manipulated.

He needs to file.

You say we are wanting her punished. I say there must be consequences in order for a person to change their behavior.
But the big thing here is he needs to file and divorce because this woman clearly is not in love with her husband. And because he should want a woman that loves him, not the security the marriage provides.

6months of gleeful love for the other man,stopping only because she was caught and dumped.
What in this story makes you think this woman is remorseful and wants a true reconciliation?
Because she says so? She's said a lot of things. The facts (as we've been given) show the opposite.

Also, I don't believe healing demands forgiveness. I think forgiveness follows healing. When a betrayed spouse gets to the point of forgiveness, they ARE healed.


----------



## cam42

I don't know what I want to do. The wife may have done a selfish and disgusting thing, but I don't think she like hates me or wants the worst for me. She has been giving me the space I have asked for. I think I need to start making moves behind the scenes (perhaps filing for divorce) just to show her there are consequences to her actions. Yes I'm a chump and would like to reconcile, she has been saying she wants to reconcile and doesn't want a divorce but her actions need to prove that. And no, they weren't going to leave either of us for their spouses and there was no talk about doing that in the texts. I still wouldn't be here and neither would the other mans wife. I'm not that much of a chump. 

I don't want to be a part time dad in my opinion is different than staying for the kids. The affair was for thrill and they got off on the secrecy of it. The place where they spotted is not a place where any of us would spot them, it's not like they were in our local area showing off their "love". She has been extremely guilt stricken these past few days and I know I need to take advantage of that. I did not cry about my wife yesterday, I cried at the thought of being a part time dad. She did cry with me and hugged me, I don't think crying is weak but I will try not to do in front of her again. 

Here we are now, this is the OM's last week at the job, confirmed. There is no more inappropriate contact between the two, confirmed. I was sad and devastated yesterday, now I'm feeling a little better. I don't want to be taken advantage of but I also don't want a divorce, if that makes sense. Someone here suggested a polygraph, where can I ever get one of those done? Also my wife and I make basically the same amount of money, it's not like she even needs me in her life for financial support. 

I don't have to decide now, if my wife was being mean and cold to me then I would definitely walk. She is doing everything I ask and I'm currently at a stand still. Filing will definitely shock her, I'm just too scared to do at the moment. People it's not easy to walk away from a woman you've been with for so long who is the mother of your three kids. Someone also suggested a book to me No More Mr. Nice guy in PM, anyone have experience with it?

Regrading the polygraph I would like to ask about if she ever had past affairs, does she still love me. Would she rather be with the OM or someone else. I don't know how accurate those are and I'm not sure she would agree to it. She said she would do anything though so we will see. It's very difficult to get back to everyone so sorry if I can't answer questions. If you would like to ask anything personal just private message me.


----------



## Satya

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &amp;quot;emotional affair&amp;quot; with a married man*

Cam, are you afraid of reading the emails, not so much for pure content, but because she may have slagged you off to the OM? 

Because that can be the most hurtful thing of all, not to mention steer the direction of your choices very rapidly and purposefully... Away from R. 

There are all kinds of betrayals, some that wound more deeply than others.


----------



## NoChoice

cam42 said:


> I don't know what I want to do. The wife may have done a selfish and disgusting thing, but I don't think she like hates me or wants the worst for me. She has been giving me the space I have asked for. I think I need to start making moves behind the scenes (perhaps filing for divorce) just to show her there are consequences to her actions. *Yes I'm a chump and would like to reconcile*, she has been saying she wants to reconcile and doesn't want a divorce but her actions need to prove that. *And no, they weren't going to leave either of us for their spouses and there was no talk about doing that in the texts*. I still wouldn't be here and neither would the other mans wife. I'm not that much of a chump.


How, exactly, does this make you a chump? Perhaps grunt and beat your chest a few times to counteract this feeling. Do not allow other's supposition to cloud your judgement further.



> *I don't want to be a part time dad* in my opinion is different than staying for the kids. *The affair was for thrill and they got off on the secrecy of it.* The place where they spotted is not a place where any of us would spot them, it's not like they were in our local area showing off their "love". She has been extremely guilt stricken these past few days and I know I need to take advantage of that. I did not cry about my wife yesterday, I cried at the thought of being a part time dad. She did cry with me and hugged me, *I don't think crying is weak* but I will try not to do in front of her again.


You are a H yes but you are also a father and must act accordingly. Child minded fun. Crying is a release of emotion, nothing more, many assign much more "meaning" to it. Crying does not signify weakness but rather deep, intense emotional angst.



> Here we are now, this is the OM's last week at the job, confirmed. There is no more inappropriate contact between the two, confirmed. I was sad and devastated yesterday, now I'm feeling a little better. I don't want to be taken advantage of but I also don't want a divorce, if that makes sense. Someone here suggested a polygraph, where can I ever get one of those done? Also my wife and I make basically the same amount of money, it's not like she even needs me in her life for financial support.
> 
> I don't have to decide now, if my wife was being mean and cold to me then I would definitely walk. She is doing everything I ask and I'm currently at a stand still. Filing will definitely shock her, I'm just too scared to do at the moment. *People* it's not easy to walk away from a woman you've been with for so long who is the mother of your three kids. Someone also suggested a book to me No More Mr. Nice guy in PM, anyone have experience with it?


You needn't justify your feelings to us or anyone.



> Regrading the polygraph I would like to ask about if she ever had past affairs, *does she still love me*. Would she rather be with the OM or someone else. I don't know how accurate those are and I'm not sure she would agree to it. She said she would do anything though so we will see. It's very difficult to get back to everyone so sorry if I can't answer questions. If you would like to ask anything personal just private message me.


Do not put too much stock in the answer to this question until you are convinced she knows what love is. Up till now she has demonstrated she does not. This is the change you must see if you are to R successfully.
She must become that different woman I referenced earlier and to do so she must truly "get it", all of it and understand love. Be warned that this is extremely difficult for a person to do and highly unlikely, nigh on to impossible but the chance does exist.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &amp;quot;emotional affair&amp;quot; with a married man*

Cam, what @NoChoice said is very important. I want to add something to it.

You are not a chump for wanting to reconcile. Nearly every BS who comes to this site wants to R. 

What will make you a chump is if you reconcile with someone who is not doing the things necessary to be a suitable partner again. Right now it is a little too soon to tell if your wife is demonstrating that. Tears are not necessarily a demonstration of remorse.

The only thing worse than losing your spouse to infidelity is reconciling with someone who will do it to you again.

You need to figure out what you need to see to give her a chance at reconciliation. It starts with no contact, IC, her going to each of your parents to apologize for her behavior, full access to all her devices and accounts, and a willingness to understand that you won't just get over it in six months (trying to rug sweep). If she is unwilling to do any of that, then she is not remorseful. I am sure there are other things that other posters will think of. What you must see from her is full capitulation.

The only thing I need to caution you on, Cam, is that you need to actually communicate to her that this is her last shot. Any more shenanigans means she will be your XW in short order. Here is the kicker: you actually have to be willing to walk, which is really the only concern I have of you. Never...Ever...Ever play brinkmanship unless you are willing to go over the brink.

All waywards do and say dumb crap. Yours is no different.

Figure out what you need to R. Listen very closely to @drifting on and @Lonely husband 42301. They have both reconciled, and DO's situation was considerably worse than yours.

Keep posting. And yes, read No More Mister Nice Guy. It is a great book.


----------



## ABHale

cam42 said:


> I don't know what I want to do. The wife may have done a selfish and disgusting thing, but I don't think she like hates me or wants the worst for me. She has been giving me the space I have asked for. I think I need to start making moves behind the scenes (perhaps filing for divorce) just to show her there are consequences to her actions. Yes I'm a chump and would like to reconcile, she has been saying she wants to reconcile and doesn't want a divorce but her actions need to prove that. And no, they weren't going to leave either of us for their spouses and there was no talk about doing that in the texts. I still wouldn't be here and neither would the other mans wife. I'm not that much of a chump.
> 
> I don't want to be a part time dad in my opinion is different than staying for the kids. The affair was for thrill and they got off on the secrecy of it. The place where they spotted is not a place where any of us would spot them, it's not like they were in our local area showing off their "love". She has been extremely guilt stricken these past few days and I know I need to take advantage of that. I did not cry about my wife yesterday, I cried at the thought of being a part time dad. She did cry with me and hugged me, I don't think crying is weak but I will try not to do in front of her again.
> 
> Here we are now, this is the OM's last week at the job, confirmed. There is no more inappropriate contact between the two, confirmed. I was sad and devastated yesterday, now I'm feeling a little better. I don't want to be taken advantage of but I also don't want a divorce, if that makes sense. Someone here suggested a polygraph, where can I ever get one of those done? Also my wife and I make basically the same amount of money, it's not like she even needs me in her life for financial support.
> 
> I don't have to decide now, if my wife was being mean and cold to me then I would definitely walk. She is doing everything I ask and I'm currently at a stand still. Filing will definitely shock her, I'm just too scared to do at the moment. People it's not easy to walk away from a woman you've been with for so long who is the mother of your three kids. Someone also suggested a book to me No More Mr. Nice guy in PM, anyone have experience with it?
> 
> Regrading the polygraph I would like to ask about if she ever had past affairs, does she still love me. Would she rather be with the OM or someone else. I don't know how accurate those are and I'm not sure she would agree to it. She said she would do anything though so we will see. It's very difficult to get back to everyone so sorry if I can't answer questions. If you would like to ask anything personal just private message me.




Cam this is the most rational post you have made. 

Don't give her a choice about the polygraph, she didn't give you one when she cheated. 

In what you are saying I see no remorse on her side. Yes she is giving you space but it is on her terms. 

One last thing. Do you want your kids growing up and seeing you as you just described yourself. If you R then you need to man up and do it the right way. Stop being a chump. 

You need to expose her to everyone. Every successful R I have read about starts with exposure. 

Read No More Mr Nice Guy. 

Make her stay at her moms for the next month, not the few days as she wants. You need this space to clear your head. She wants to make it look like a visit to save face. Was she worried about appearances when she was out on their dates? 

Find out which of her friends knew about this, and make her cut ties with them. She was telling someone.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Cam, you are by no means a chump for wanting to reconcile. I did, and for six weeks I was solid on D. But I had taken time to think through. My question was would my life be better or worse without my wife? You love your wife, but she hurt you more than you have ever been hurt. However, she must show remorse. How will you know she is showing remorse? When you see her do things that demonstrate she knows she hurt you badly and shows by her words backed up by actions supporting those words. You will see it when you look into her eyes. You will know, trust me on that. It is hard to explain.

Definitely have divorce petition and related items drafted and have her served. As noted earlier on this thread this shows your wife actions have consequences.

Most of all do what feels right in your heart. Most on this thread are pro divorce, and I can attest to that.
But understand that most have been where you are and their concern is for you to get out of infidelity.
Pray for guidance. Trust me it helps much.

Please quit referring to yourself as a chump. Do not beat yourself up. This **** is all her fault. She owns it. You did nothing to deserve this **** sandwich she served you.


----------



## Grapes

You should be able to google for a polygraph tester in your area. Though Ive never done it I think you get 3 questions. From what i understand I would not ask the question Do You Love Me. Not that the question isnt important but because everyone has a different definition of love, and love things differently. Love like you are her brother? love like your her kid? Love like your her husband? Its all love but different. 

There are people here who have done the polygraph thing and can help you with very pinpointed questions to ask. I think you want to concentrate your questions on past infidelity? What else?

A polygraph is the way to go here. You will find out very quickly if shes really willing to do "anything". like Farside said though - you have to be willing to walk away if she balks.

So - If you do go forward with polygraph plan for the scenarios. Plan for her going, plan for her refusing, also plan what you will do if she agrees but starts trickle truthing you. Set your direction upfront for each scenario so when the time comes you have a plan and just execute instead of trying to figure it out in the moment.


----------



## syhoybenden

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> You will see it when you look into her eyes.


Hmmm. Are you familiar with the phrase 'her lying eyes'? 

Propaganda from the Screen Actor's Guild notwithstanding, ... acting is easy.

"Remember Jerry, it's not a lie if you believe it."


----------



## Relationship Teacher

Evinrude58 said:


> I read a lot of your posts and can see some logic in them. I don't see it in this.
> One can't rebuild a relationship with an unrepentant cheater as she is described.
> One week she's holding hands, laughing with OM and her buddies, this week she's caught and dumped, and suddenly found her love for her husband. I'm starting to doubt this more and more, however, if it's real the OP must know he's being majorly manipulated.


It is a standard part of published research that there is going to be denial and blame-shifting, in fact, many affairs don't become revealed until multiple sessions into therapy.



> He needs to file.
> 
> You say we are wanting her punished. I say there must be consequences in order for a person to change their behavior.
> But the big thing here is he needs to file and divorce because this woman clearly is not in love with her husband. And because he should want a woman that loves him, not the security the marriage provides.


 Every affair can fall into your category, thus, I don't find it practical. Her behavior is changed by putting her in front of stone-cold reality.


> 6months of gleeful love for the other man,stopping only because she was caught and dumped.
> What in this story makes you think this woman is remorseful and wants a true reconciliation?
> Because she says so? She's said a lot of things. The facts (as we've been given) show the opposite.


I actually don't know if she is, yet. As I have postulated, she has reversed into desperation, which is just another illusion. Many times, the desperation ends and the cheating partner is left with character flaws: the same ones that allowed for the affair. Reconciliation is a process that requires* a lot* of data-gathering and analysis.




> Also, I don't believe healing demands forgiveness. I think forgiveness follows healing. When a betrayed spouse gets to the point of forgiveness, they ARE healed.


True forgiveness is a process of forgiving themselves for allowing external factors to traumatize them. That description sounds like it can be as simple as "abra cadabra"; it is not. Forgiveness requires actions and mindsets to be employed for the healing to occur. He may forgive (in this specific manner) and still objectively decide that the relationship is unsalvageable.

Thank you for being cordial.


----------



## sokillme

cam42 said:


> I don't know what I want to do. The wife may have done a selfish and disgusting thing, but I don't think she like hates me or wants the worst for me. She has been giving me the space I have asked for. I think I need to start making moves behind the scenes (perhaps filing for divorce) just to show her there are consequences to her actions. Yes I'm a chump and would like to reconcile, she has been saying she wants to reconcile and doesn't want a divorce but her actions need to prove that. And no, they weren't going to leave either of us for their spouses and there was no talk about doing that in the texts. I still wouldn't be here and neither would the other mans wife. I'm not that much of a chump.
> 
> I don't want to be a part time dad in my opinion is different than staying for the kids. The affair was for thrill and they got off on the secrecy of it. The place where they spotted is not a place where any of us would spot them, it's not like they were in our local area showing off their "love". She has been extremely guilt stricken these past few days and I know I need to take advantage of that. I did not cry about my wife yesterday, I cried at the thought of being a part time dad. She did cry with me and hugged me, I don't think crying is weak but I will try not to do in front of her again.
> 
> Here we are now, this is the OM's last week at the job, confirmed. There is no more inappropriate contact between the two, confirmed. I was sad and devastated yesterday, now I'm feeling a little better. I don't want to be taken advantage of but I also don't want a divorce, if that makes sense. Someone here suggested a polygraph, where can I ever get one of those done? Also my wife and I make basically the same amount of money, it's not like she even needs me in her life for financial support.
> 
> I don't have to decide now, if my wife was being mean and cold to me then I would definitely walk. She is doing everything I ask and I'm currently at a stand still. Filing will definitely shock her, I'm just too scared to do at the moment. People it's not easy to walk away from a woman you've been with for so long who is the mother of your three kids. Someone also suggested a book to me No More Mr. Nice guy in PM, anyone have experience with it?
> 
> Regrading the polygraph I would like to ask about if she ever had past affairs, does she still love me. Would she rather be with the OM or someone else. I don't know how accurate those are and I'm not sure she would agree to it. She said she would do anything though so we will see. It's very difficult to get back to everyone so sorry if I can't answer questions. If you would like to ask anything personal just private message me.


Your wife may not hate you but she certainly didn't treat you that way. You deserve more. 

I can't say anything more than I have, if you chose to R I won't give advice on something that I think will hurt you in the long run. If you want to R that it's your life. Just don't R thinking your life, marriage, and wife will ever be like it was. I am sorry but that part of your life is dead. You must accept it because you must understand what you are agreeing to if you stay with her. 

I wish you well OP. I wish you a fulfilling life.


----------



## TDSC60

Believe me when I tell you that everyone in her work place either knows or suspects the she and OM where f***ing. Now a large portion of the men will try to be the next guy in line when OM leaves. Also believe me when I say that a bunch of the guys there got a play-by-play of how the OM got her in bed and will try the same tactic.

"Gee I heard about you and OM. That crazy ***** he is married to is making his life miserable, but he has to stay for his kids. Are you OK?" and then it starts.

Can you be sure she will not fall for one of them?


----------



## harrybrown

you do need to see if she is going to cheat again.

If you do not have some consequences, she will be at it as soon as she thinks things have cooled down. 

does she still find you attractive sexually, or does she love you like a brother? 

You will not know without the D filing, the exposure, the polygraph that she pays for, and her paying for you both to go to counseling with affair recovery.com.

You can find them online. she can pay for affair recovery.com, also. You do not want to go thru this again. She has proven that she can cheat, and lie and not think about her kids or you.

Yes, she needs to show that you are the only man for her for the rest of her life. Is she still pining for the OM? Yes, she is pining for him right now and this last week that he is there is a big problem.

I would have a PI on her this week. She might try for one last fling with him before he is gone. 

protect yourself from future pain. You do not want to go thru this again. If you roll over, she will think the next OM will be even easier than this one.

Good luck to you and your kids. Your wife is not in love with you, like you are in love with her. You are still looking at her thru rose colored glasses. Time to take her off of her pedestal, she is very ugly inside.


----------



## Affaircare

@cam42, 

Until today I've been quietly reading along on your thread, but today I want to speak to you as a former Disloyal Spouse who was able to successfully reconcile. I also would like you to know that I am pro-reconciliation if possible...but facing reality, sometimes it really is not possible! 

In your circumstances, I see the potential possibility for hope, but I don't think we are quite there yet. Let's look at some of the positives: a) the affair is over and it can be confirmed it's over; b) the OM is quitting the job and going elsewhere; c) No Contact has been put in place and you can confirm it; d) your wife has expressed some regret. When Loyal Spouses don't even have these things, well then obviously it's not even possible to have hope of reconciling--but in your instance you DO have a couple indicators that there is a possibility, so I would say rather than thinking of "what's going to happen?" that one thing you could do that might help a bit is to live in the now and recognize that this is where you are now: you don't have the disaster that some are handed!

Next I'd say that you get to decide what you do and do not want to know about the affair. YOU are the one who was betrayed! So it's not up to us--we are not there and we have not lived your life--so it is up to YOU to make decisions for your self and your marriage and your family. My own Dear Hubby also did not want to read every single chat log because in his logic he said, "I already know you were unfaithful. You have already admitted you were unfaithful. I know what infidelity means and what it involves and will act accordingly. I just don't need to know every little detail to know what I need to do." If that is where you're at--you know it was adultery and you don't need to know more to know what to do and how to act--then you are the betrayed person and you get to choose what works to heal you. 

But my caution here is that people tend to live in what I call an "illusion." What I mean by that is that sometimes people do not want to hear that she talked extremely dirty to the OM because that would shatter their illusion. Or they don't want to see right before their eyes that she talked about having a fetish or being sexually wild because it would destroy the illusion. So they AVOID THE TRUTH in order to maintain the illusion. Essentially it's like denial and rugsweeping in order to try to maintain status quo (or return the marriage to status quo). If that is where you are at--you don't want to know the full truth because you would not be able to deny how bad it was or maintain the illusion of getting back to "the way it was"--then you have an issue. Because @cam42 as painful as it is, you need to face reality...the TRUTH. And the truth is that your wife committed adultery, and the marriage you had in the past was KILLED when she was unfaithful. You will never, EVER have that marriage back again. It is DEAD and death means that it will not "go back to the way it was." Then again, "the way it was" lead to one party in the marriage having an affair! So we do not WANT to go back to that!!!!! If you reconcile, it has to be because your eyes are WIDE OPEN to the full truth, and you accept that the old marriage will not resurrect, and you choose to move on and build a whole new marriage with your wife. 

Okay? 

Reading some of the texts may open your eyes enough for you to fully understand that the former marriage IS NO MORE. It won't be going back to the way it was. If you choose to reconcile, it will be something entirely different and hopefully much, MUCH healthier and better. Envision it this way: right now you have been given a puzzle that is in pieces. You can't see the image on the puzzle because all you have is a jumble of pieces. Now through some investigating and logic you have been able to find all the flat-edge pieces and put the FRAME together--so you know that the image within the puzzle is adultery. And you have been able to put the pieces together to see a corner of the image over here...and a large chunk over there...but you do not yet see the entire picture or entirely what you're dealing with. In my Dear Hubby's opinion, he does not think "how many times did you ___?" is the puzzle to concentrate on, though; he believes the REAL puzzle is the "what was it about the former marriage that lead to an affair?"

Finally, I would like to sort of help you understand the difference between *regret/remorse* and *true repentance*, and give you a few examples of what each would look like.

*REGRET/REMORSE* is when a disloyal spouse is sorry. They are sorry they got caught. They are sorry they have to leave their cushy job. They are sorry they have to eat crow. They are sorry they have to experience a painful consequence. They may even be sorry they hurt you! But the sorrow is SELF focused and revolves around feeling miserable because the result of what they did is painful to them! Very often, a disloyal spouse in regret/remorse will claim they will change or have changed, will promise to "do anything", will say they don't want a divorce....but when it comes to actually going to IC on their own without prompting they won't go--or won't read any marriage books--or won't do the work of actually attempting to use the new methods and change. In other words they are often all talk and no action--and they "don't want a divorce" because they aren't dumb! They realize that they'll lose half of everything and half their time with the kids! 

*TRUE REPENTANCE*, on the other hand, is when a disloyal is LOYAL-focused and FAMILY-focused. Now to be fair and honest, many people do start off in regret/remorse because we are all beings that think of ourselves. But if a disloyal is going to actually recover, very, VERY quickly after saying to themselves "OH MY GOD this hurts!" they'll switch to something like "If this hurts ME it must have been gut-wrenching to my spouse and so scary for my kids!" They are sorry but the sorrow is in thinking about the damage they did to the one person who always stood by them...and the destruction they caused to the little faces that look up to them for security and guidance! A disloyal who is repentant is pretty rare, but when you have one it will sound like this: "I didn't see the harm I was doing and I see it now! Oh my god I can't believe what I've done! I know I deserve nothing right now, but what can I do to help you? How can I help you and the kids get back on your feet?" A repentant spouse would take personal responsibility and get their own behind end to IC without nagging...and then work on the counseling throughout the week to figure out where they're broken. And most of all, the repentant disloyal would not make promises AT ALL. They'd just keep quiet and let their ACTIONS speak for themselves, acknowledging that their action is what killed the marriage--not you telling the truth--and accepting that you need to do what you need to do.

So to sum it all up, I do think there is hope, but now would be a great time to take a step back, take a breath, and observe. Figure out which puzzle you want to fill out. Take the time to accept that the image you had of your "good marriage" was false. Learn to accept that your former marriage is dead and that if you do decide to reconcile, you need to build a whole, new marriage (otherwise you are rugsweeping). Take time to observe if your wife is regretful and self-centered....or repentant and others-centered. 

I personally would get divorce papers, fill them out, show them to her, and leave them out on the corner of your desk or table--visible. Then sit back and see how she ACTS. Don't remind her...don't nag or plead...just observe. And likewise work on yourself. Was your wife unhappy in the marriage? Why didn't you notice that? What do you need to work on? Do that and just give you and her time to show WITH ACTIONS what is true. If she never really does anything different, then she didn't really mean it and she didn't really change, right? But if she DID really mean it she will ACT different. She will learn how to be a better wife. She will struggle with and practice being transparently honest. She will open up to you and want to be with you. If you don't see those kinds of actions , then file. If you do....then keep building.

ETA: Gratuitous plug for a fantastic article (heehee): http://affaircare.com/2016/01/23/what-the-disloyal-spouse-can-do-to-save-their-marriage/


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## OnTheRocks

I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but while she's in "I'll do anything" mode, you should have her sign an air tight post-nuptial agreement that gives you 50/50 custody and no child support. 

Depending on where you live, you could be on the hook for a considerable CS obligation. In Texas, it's almost impossible for the father to get primary or even 50/50 custody unless the wife agrees to it. CS is 30% of your after-tax take home pay for 3 kids, and the salary of your wife has no bearing on the calculation. I pay 20% to my cheating ex for my kid, and she made about 40% more than I did when we divorced.

You should talk with a lawyer whether you file or not. I had no clue how divorce law worked. Basically, if you have a penis, and your wife isn't a felon, it is not going to work out in your favor.


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## Spicy

Confession: If you didn't gather it from my other post, I am pro saving a marriage when possible.

Just because statements are being made on here doesn't mean they are true. They very well may be, but they also may not. "This isn't her first affair." "She will definitely cheat again." "She only has remorse because she got caught." Can we be positive on any of those statements? No. She very well may have been completely faithful to you for over 20 years. The horrific turmoil this has caused, the reality of it all, that she may be about to lose her husband, and her children 50% of the time could cure her from ever even glancing sideways at any other man besides you. Her remorse has probably been getting more and more sincere as she fully admits to herself what a despicable thing she has done to you all. She also could have had plenty of guilt during the office affair she fell into. Ultimately only she knows the answer to these things. The second best person to determine the answers is you.

Let's remember that according to your opening post, you had a great wife up until this happened. You give no indication that you have ever before been burned by her, that she is some raging h0bag, that you had a miserable marriage etc. So, should her affair erase all her lifetimes worth of good qualities, including those as a wife, mother, and human? Again, completely up to you to decide. These are just some of the reasons I recommended you taking plenty of time to make this decision, and asking her to go to her parents during that time. You need to analyze this from SO many directions. 

You are barely over a week into knowing this. When things are less raw, and you are entertaining the choices of D or R, consider having a conversation about yourself with her. Ask her what things you could do to be a better husband? What was she missing that she needed? Right now, her answer would be "Nothing, you are perfect, it's all my fault." Yes, it's true. The affair IS all her fault. In every marriage though, we as spouses fall down on the job. Much of it in a LTR is just due to becoming lax or preoccupied with the stresses of daily life.

Once she is able to speak freely about the answers to those questions, you will have gained an insight on things you can improve on should you decide to remain married. I've asked these type of questions to my husband. Ouch. Hearing the replies hurts the ol' ego. My mind immediately provides me with a thousand excuses for whatever he has said. Followed immediately with it providing me a list of all the stuff my husband does that I don't like. Human nature...BUT...if I can keep my trap shut, hear what he says, ponder on it when I have time alone later, and then work to make some adjustments. Because here is the thing...even if I don't see the validity in something he may point out about me, it doesn't really matter....it is how HE feels. If I can make a small adjustment that will result in a happier marriage, I want to do that. The cool thing is, so does he, and I have seen him work so hard at the things I have talked to him about. Having a conversation where you are asking where you can improve could be cool salve to an open wound,

If you want to salvage your marriage, I believe you can do it. It will be a long, arduous process, but you could walk away stronger for having survived and worked through such a terrible trial. Time is on your side my friend. Take it. All of it. As long as you need.


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## cam42

I asked her if she still finds me sexually attractive, she said she did and that it had nothing to do with why she was having the affair. Hopefully she's telling the truth. I want to get a polygraph done and told her if she refuses then we might as well end our marriage, she has agreed to do it. She is also going to start seeing an individual counselor. Just because I want reconciliation doesn't mean that that's the road I'm going to take. I also want to know which of her friends knew about it, if they participated in her betrayal then my wife will have to cut them off if she wants to stay with me. Harsh but I was deceived for six months straight. My wife wouldn't be so evil to **** me over in the CS arrangement or custody, especially not at the moment with her guilt. I will be prepared just in case, if a divorce is on our future I'll fight for fairness. Can I get a child custody arrangement in place that makes it 50/50 even if we divorce like now? better to take advantage of her guilt.

She's going to IC and also has mentioned she wants to write on a forum, she mentioned surviving infidelity to me. I'm not sure if that's a good idea, I wouldn't want her writing on here (hypocritical by me) or maybe I should want that. She doesn't know I write on here, did any of your spouses know you were writing on this forum?


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## lordmayhem

cam42 said:


> I asked her if she still finds me sexually attractive, she said she did and that it had nothing to do with why she was having the affair. Hopefully she's telling the truth. I want to get a polygraph done and told her if she refuses then we might as well end our marriage, she has agreed to do it. She is also going to start seeing an individual counselor. Just because I want reconciliation doesn't mean that that's the road I'm going to take. I also want to know which of her friends knew about it, if they participated in her betrayal then my wife will have to cut them off if she wants to stay with me. Harsh but I was deceived for six months straight. My wife wouldn't be so evil to **** me over in the CS arrangement or custody, especially not at the moment with her guilt. I will be prepared just in case, if a divorce is on our future I'll fight for fairness. Can I get a child custody arrangement in place that makes it 50/50 even if we divorce like now? better to take advantage of her guilt.
> 
> She's going to IC and also has mentioned she wants to write on a forum, she mentioned surviving infidelity to me. I'm not sure if that's a good idea, I wouldn't want her writing on here (hypocritical by me) or maybe I should want that. She doesn't know I write on here, did any of your spouses know you were writing on this forum?


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## cam42

lordmayhem said:


>


That is a helpful chart. She is now displaying the acts on the left side but only did so after her affair was exposed. Were no where near close R. She has to prove to me she wants this, she has said she does but words are not enough. I have access to all her stuff and will for the rest of the time we are married.


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## The Middleman

cam42 said:


> She's going to IC and also has mentioned she wants to write on a forum, she mentioned surviving infidelity to me. I'm not sure if that's a good idea, I wouldn't want her writing on here (hypocritical by me) or maybe I should want that. She doesn't know I write on here, did any of your spouses know you were writing on this forum?


Surviving Infidelity will just tell you to suck it up and reconcile. Might be good for her because she will hear that she's not a bad person for what she did, but it's not for you.

What ever you do ... keep her away from here. This is your "safe place". If folks here think she is the least bit remorseful, there will be pressure on you to reconcile. Keep this forum for yourself.


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## harrybrown

So why did she have the A and why did she get all dolled up and ask you how she looked?

Hope she starts actions to show remorse.

again, I would have her go to affair-recovery .com.


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## nursejackie

I had my H take a poly. The questions have to be only on one topic. only 3 relevant questions- the others are control questions for comparison.
We -the poly guy and I -first discussed in front of H what I consider "unfaithful". I said it would include sexting, sending erotic pics,videos, or phone calls, kissing with tongues feeling groping each other, and then listed all the sexual acts I could think of.
It was made clear to H so there could be no misunderstanding claimed later a la Clinton.
He was asked something like-

Have you been unfaithful during your marriage?
Have you committed adultry during your marriage.
Have your purposefully withheld sexual activity that you have engaged in with someone other than your wife during the marriage?

a score greater than -3 is considered deceptive
a score between -3 and +3 is considered inconclusive and could indicate uncertainty, couldnt recall, wording is waffly..

He scored -1 for adultry (PIV) I think he did not have PIV so this can be considered accurate in my books.
He scored -2 for purposefully withholding information- I think this is probably an indication that he doesnt get the whole lying by omission thing
He scored -6 for being unfaithful. He said later this was because he had kissed several woman when he had been out of town while dancing at a bar. He thinks this happened 4 different times but it was early in the marriage and nothing for the last decade or 2. I think this is probably true- it may have gone farther than kissing and hes trickle truthing...but I can live with that.

Because I still did not have the answer as to whether or not he had participated in sexual activity with OW I asked him to go back and do a second poly. I also wanted to know if there had been more than 4 women and if he went further than kissing with any of them.

We got to the poly guy and basically said I wouldnt have closure if they did another poly because H was unsure if there was additional activity years ago. He offered us MC. I declined since we already were going to 2.

The problem is....as you see....it is not an exact science, you are very limited in your questions and because you cant ask about "feelings" you cant get info about an EA. 

I may still have him take a 2nd at another date . (Hushhhhhhhhhh Sokillme and Bowser- I know how you feel about this- infidelity is not a one size fits all)

I dont know if we will make it but we are trying very hard at R and have been for 2 years. The reason why we can keep trying despite the many obstacles is because we both really want to make it work. and believe me its WORK.


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## nursejackie

H does not post on here- he knows only that i frequent a marital help website. He doesnt like it- he thinks it could be like a dating site- I try and reassure him its a community but nothing like that. I do not want him on here. This is my one safe place to express myself and get/give support knowledge anonymously. 

I have read posts to him from my thread and I have spoken about things that I have learned from other threads. One being how hurtful it must have been when I turned away from sex for several years after my hysterectomy. I had no idea how hurtful that was or how important sex was to men. Talk about lacking empathy! We have worked all that out nicely now though lol.


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## sidney2718

cam42 said:


> I don't know what I want to do. The wife may have done a selfish and disgusting thing, but I don't think she like hates me or wants the worst for me. She has been giving me the space I have asked for. I think I need to start making moves behind the scenes (perhaps filing for divorce) just to show her there are consequences to her actions. Yes I'm a chump and would like to reconcile, she has been saying she wants to reconcile and doesn't want a divorce but her actions need to prove that. And no, they weren't going to leave either of us for their spouses and there was no talk about doing that in the texts. I still wouldn't be here and neither would the other mans wife. I'm not that much of a chump.


I have no cure for your problems. But you may be creating new ones. For instance, when you write "I'm a chump and would like to reconcile, she has been saying she wants to reconcile and doesn't want a divorce but her actions need to prove that" you need to make sure that she KNOWS that her actions need to prove that. Don't play guessing games with her.


And don't overthink everything. Folks in your situation have successfully reconciled. But you will not get your old marriage back. That one's dead. You two need to build a new one and you need to work together to do that.


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## stillthinking

> Surviving Infidelity will just tell you to suck it up and reconcile. Might be good for her because she will hear that she's not a bad person for what she did, but it's not for you.


Yep. SI is big on the reconcile option. People who's spouses have been cheating on them for years, and with multiple partners are still advised to reconcile. Those that choose divorce are basically seen as failures by many of the posters. I think its because they want to feel better about staying with their cheating spouse. So they want everyone else to do it too. 

They would tell you how you should reconcile because she is SOOOO sorry and cries SOOOO much. And to "watch her actions" which really means check up on her like a prison warden. Forget that. Stay here.

As for your wife, they will coddle her and tell her, "You are not a bad person, you just made a bad decision."

Then they will say she needs to go to IC and "dig deep to find her "whys." Its always the same excuses, he flattered me, low self esteem, made me feel desired, emotional needs not being met, etc etc.

What you never hear the cheating spouse say this that none of those are valid. That they just did it because it felt good and they wanted to. Which is the real reason.

On another note: her offering you sex and BJ's. Its not out of love or guilt. Its manipulation. She does not want to lose her standard of living, or reputation, or be a part time parent. So she employs her only tool. The same one that got her into trouble. Her mouth and genitals. Cheaters stick to what they know best.

Get some time away and get some emotional distance from her. I know the thought of being a part time parent is agony. But looking at the face of a cheater everyday for the rest of your life will wear you down. Chip away at your soul day by day. It will effect your mood and thus your parenting. IMO better to be a happy part time parent, then a miserable, triggering, depressed, emasculated full time parent.

I know because my mother did just that to my father. He tried to be happy, but it showed everyday. Because of her actions my siblings and I did not get the kind of father we should have had. After she died, he came alive and has never been happier. I would spare you that fate.


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## ulyssesheart

stillthinking said:


> Yep. SI is big on the reconcile option. People who's spouses have been cheating on them for years, and with multiple partners are still advised to reconcile. Those that choose divorce are basically seen as failures by many of the posters. I think its because they want to feel better about staying with their cheating spouse. So they want everyone else to do it too.
> 
> They would tell you how you should reconcile because she is SOOOO sorry and cries SOOOO much. And to "watch her actions" which really means check up on her like a prison warden. Forget that. Stay here.
> 
> As for your wife, they will coddle her and tell her, "You are not a bad person, you just made a bad decision."
> 
> Then they will say she needs to go to IC and "dig deep to find her "whys." Its always the same excuses, he flattered me, low self esteem, made me feel desired, emotional needs not being met, etc etc.
> 
> What you never hear the cheating spouse say this that none of those are valid. That they just did it because it felt good and they wanted to. Which is the real reason.
> 
> On another note: her offering you sex and BJ's. Its not out of love or guilt. Its manipulation. She does not want to lose her standard of living, or reputation, or be a part time parent. So she employs her only tool. The same one that got her into trouble. Her mouth and genitals. Cheaters stick to what they know best.
> 
> Get some time away and get some emotional distance from her. I know the thought of being a part time parent is agony. But looking at the face of a cheater everyday for the rest of your life will wear you down. Chip away at your soul day by day. It will effect your mood and thus your parenting. IMO better to be a happy part time parent, then a miserable, triggering, depressed, emasculated full time parent.
> 
> I know because my mother did just that to my father. He tried to be happy, but it showed everyday. Because of her actions my siblings and I did not get the kind of father we should have had. After she died, he came alive and has never been happier. I would spare you that fate.


Well said. Said well. Well, sad.


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## ulyssesheart

Bibi1031;17220018[/quote said:


> *If, in time, she is genuinely remorseful* and figures out that she does love her husband; then and only then does this marriage stand a chance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't take me wrong. In my personal opinion, I would walk away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There is little to lose *as a whole family in giving this that chance and very much to gain.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bibi would hit the bricks over this., she would walk away. I would tear up the bricks leaving so fast over this.
> 
> Bibi says there is little to lose over this.
> 
> In her first quote that I cited she used the word "time". I cannot think of anything more valuable than this. We are here for such a short time, why waste a minute on the WW. And any R given by Kind Camshafted would be weak, and inconsequential. She would feel no pain.
> 
> At minimum, Cam42 needs to expose her to everyone. This would hurt her.
Click to expand...


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## TX-SC

I think SI could help your wife, just as TAM has helped you. It could do her some good to talk to other way wards and learn a few things. Yes, they are pro R, but since you seem to be heading that route anyway, it might not be a bad thing. 

Just make sure to keep her off of Loveshack. That place is a cesspool of cheaters with no remorse. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## JohnA

I really have no idea what some of the previous posters are reading. The advise in the just found out at SI and infidelity at Lovesack is very similar is tone down. Many posters here also post on these two sites using the same tone. This site is better at getting BS off the dime. 

Now the Wayward section on SI and the OW/OM on loveshack are very different. Read a dozen threads on loveshack and you will see regret but not remorse, WW moaning OM will not comment to them, fWW fixated on OM and adultery leaving one to wonder whenthe hell are you going to say something about your husband, and outright attempts demanding rugsweeping. SI on the other hand has many posters who show various level of remorse and are getting it. 

Honestly if your wife had to choose one SI is better. A couple of the WS are brutal towards WS. A third option might be marriage builders. There plan A and plan B suck!!! But parts are golden such as this one: Exposure 101 - Your Most Powerful Weapon - Marriage Builders® Forums No one here is more hard core here then this. "all children above the age of four MUST be informed of the adulterous behavior in an age appropriate manner". All family, friends, etc must ve informed. Notice the word choice of must. Finally "the affair must be killed first". Pretty straight forward. Remember that plan a and plan b none sense is for BS that aren't going any where regardless. But if at least if they expose and reject Blameshifting that's a start. Read the threads in that section few do. 
Truth they wouldn't anyway,


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Cam, 

All I can tell you is do what you feel is best for you whether it be R or D. If it was me, I would ready every damn text so you know all the facts as Joe Friday ( you are probably to young to remember Dragnet)would do. You have to understand the context of their relationship as hard as it may be. How will you know what you are, forgiving if you fail to read? In order to make the appropriate decision all the cards need to be on the table. You also need to make her feel your pain. And feel it she should! You have to be strong.

You cannot nice them back. You have to demonstrate strength and if necessary indifference to her. In order to save your marriage you must be willing to lose it. Think about it. I did, and I realize the poster who gave me the advice was 100% spot on. Divorce papers, 180, make her vacate your house for 4-6 weeks, and expose. If you want to R exposure is not an option it is a mandatory requirement on your part. Trust me I know. Been there, done that. It works. 

Let her know you are going out for the evening. Do not say with who, or where. Do this several evenings in a row. You have to knock her off base and keep her guessing. To quote Sun Tzu, "baffle them with confusion, take them by surprise". You must mess with her mentally as much as possible.

In addition to reading No More Mr. Nice Guy, read "Grow A Pair" great book. I read it and it helped.


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## Archangel2

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Cam,
> 
> All I can tell you is do what you feel is best for you whether it be R or D. If it was me, I would ready every damn text so you know all the facts as Joe Friday ( you are probably to young to remember Dragnet)would do. You have to understand the context of their relationship as hard as it may be. How will you know what you are, forgiving if you fail to read? In order to make the appropriate decision all the cards need to be on the table. You also need to make her feel your pain. And feel it she should! You have to be strong.
> 
> You cannot nice them back. You have to demonstrate strength and if necessary indifference to her. In order to save your marriage you must be willing to lose it. Think about it. I did, and I realize the poster who gave me the advice was 100% spot on. Divorce papers, 180, make her vacate your house for 4-6 weeks, and expose. If you want to R exposure is not an option it is a mandatory requirement on your part. Trust me I know. Been there, done that. It works.
> 
> Let her know you are going out for the evening. Do not say with who, or where. Do this several evenings in a row. You have to knock her off base and keep her guessing. To quote Sun Tzu, "baffle them with confusion, take them by surprise". You must mess with her mentally as much as possible.
> 
> In addition to reading No More Mr. Nice Guy, read "Grow A Pair" great book. I read it and it helped.


 @cam42

As soon as you qualify, may I suggest you read LonelyHusband42301's thread in the Private section? He literally went through hell in his own situation, but he made it out to the other side to give good counsel. I think his perspective will be very enlightening and comforting.


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## Chaparral

Re polygraphers. It seems the best way to find a good one is to find out who the police in your area use. Talk to the polygrapher and find out their procedures. They vary and not all limit the number of questions to three.

Re reading the texts. Cheaters lie, it's part of the deal. The lie to their spouses, they lie to themselves and they blow smoke up each other's a$$es. If they tell each other they love him/her, one is undoubtedly lying. One is almost always playing the other. I mean, who tells a lover they are not the best? You can read the texts but take them with a grain of salt. In your case neither of them intended to leave their families. Duh


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## lordmayhem

cam42 said:


> That is a helpful chart. She is now displaying the acts on the left side but only did so after her affair was exposed. Were no where near close R. She has to prove to me she wants this, she has said she does but words are not enough. I have access to all her stuff and will for the rest of the time we are married.


It's good that you recognize that you're nowhere close to R and that she has to prove to you that she wants this. Way back then, my fWW had to bust her ass to earn her shot at R, and the ONLY reason was because her EA didn't go PA because OM is in another country. A PA for me is the deal breaker and there would be no chance for R no matter how remorseful she was. 

The choice to R or D is up to YOU. It seems her banging another man may not be a deal breaker for you, that's your choice, everyone's different.


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## NoChoice

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Cam,
> 
> All I can tell you is do what you feel is best for you whether it be R or D. If it was me, I would ready every damn text so you know all the facts as Joe Friday ( you are probably to young to remember Dragnet)would do. You have to understand the context of their relationship as hard as it may be. How will you know what you are, forgiving if you fail to read? In order to make the appropriate decision all the cards need to be on the table. You also need to make her feel your pain. And feel it she should! You have to be strong.


Remember that Sergeant Friday was looking for the facts to convict. We do not need a conviction since the perpetrator was caught red handed and there is no question of guilt. You may wish to know the depths of depravity or you may not. Either way you will have to accept and ultimately digest and pass this poison (some call it forgiveness) to once again see her as wife material. This can only be done if she truly is, and proves she is, a new woman. Also the bolded part is absolutely true, she must feel YOUR pain. 



> You cannot nice them back. You have to demonstrate strength and if necessary indifference to her. In order to save your marriage you must be willing to lose it. Think about it. I did, and I realize the poster who gave me the advice was 100% spot on. Divorce papers, 180, make her vacate your house for 4-6 weeks, and expose. If you want to R *exposure is not an option it is a mandatory requirement* on your part. Trust me I know. Been there, done that. It works.


This is the purest way for her to feel some of your pain. Humiliation, shame and the look of utter disappointment on the faces of people she cares about, especially you. But this presupposes that she is capable of those feelings. If not, she will have to mature into them. A feat which is next to impossible to accomplish.





> *Let her know you are going out for the evening. Do not say with who, or where. Do this several evenings in a row. You have to knock her off base and keep her guessing. To quote Sun Tzu, "baffle them with confusion, take them by surprise". You must mess with her mentally as much as possible*.
> 
> In addition to reading No More Mr. Nice Guy, read "Grow A Pair" great book. I read it and it helped.


This quote and many others that suggest "messing with her mind" is really nothing more than forcing her to become cognizant, forcing her to think. As she begins to use her mind there is a very small chance that she will develop the cognizance necessary to maintain fidelity. It ultimately boils down to this; If there are enough synaptic neural pathways to allow this to occur then she can be trusted implicitly, if not then she can never be fully trusted.

As children grow they mature mentally from creatures that realize only their existence to beings that recognize that they are not the center of the known universe and that they have a responsibility to the other beings with which they share this planet. Their thoughts deepen with this understanding. Think of this, why have you not cheated? Think of all the thoughts that prevent you from performing this act of destruction.

Now imagine if most of those thoughts simply were not there in your mind. Would you still refrain from cheating? Could you, especially when it offered something you so badly wanted such as attention, ego boost, to be desired and all the other reasons WS's give? Until your wife becomes cognizant at this level then true R is not possible. Threats, fear and other forms of coercion only work until they do not. If her restraints are not self induced they cannot be fully trusted.

You spank a child when they are young and they refrain from doing that thing again to avoid the physical pain of a spanking but, as they mature and their mind develops, if it develops, they begin to understand the real reason for not doing "wrong". It is not the fear of pain that stops them at this point but rather the sense of "this is wrong" because.....

At that point their restraint becomes internalized and not influenced by outside forces like the threat of punishment. Your wife has not developed this cognizant ability yet and she may never but without it you will indeed be her jailer/guardian/parent or whatever term you choose to use for it. You will have to be her mind since her mind never reached the point of self control necessary to be in an adult relationship.

These are the signs you must look for in her for without them real change is not possible. If she is capable of advancing to this level of thinking then you can have a successful R.


----------



## Satya

cam42 said:


> I asked her if she still finds me sexually attractive, she said she did and that it had nothing to do with why she was having the affair. Hopefully she's telling the truth. I want to get a polygraph done and told her if she refuses then we might as well end our marriage, she has agreed to do it. She is also going to start seeing an individual counselor. Just because I want reconciliation doesn't mean that that's the road I'm going to take. I also want to know which of her friends knew about it, if they participated in her betrayal then my wife will have to cut them off if she wants to stay with me. Harsh but I was deceived for six months straight. My wife wouldn't be so evil to **** me over in the CS arrangement or custody, especially not at the moment with her guilt. I will be prepared just in case, if a divorce is on our future I'll fight for fairness. Can I get a child custody arrangement in place that makes it 50/50 even if we divorce like now? better to take advantage of her guilt.
> 
> She's going to IC and also has mentioned she wants to write on a forum, she mentioned surviving infidelity to me. I'm not sure if that's a good idea, I wouldn't want her writing on here (hypocritical by me) or maybe I should want that. She doesn't know I write on here, did any of your spouses know you were writing on this forum?


There's nothing wrong with having her sign a post nuptial while you sort this other stuff out. 

Azz-u-me. Do it at your peril.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Archangel2 said:


> @cam42
> 
> As soon as you qualify, may I suggest you read LonelyHusband42301's thread in the Private section? He literally went through hell in his own situation, but he made it out to the other side to give good counsel. I think his perspective will be very enlightening and comforting.


Read all of his threads. His situation has one HUGE difference than yours. Just like the pro-divorce crowd may be hedging with advice, the pro-reconciliation group is in the exact same boat. Basically, take all advice with a grain of salt and do what's best for you. Just don't jump the gun, either way, when she does what you want to see or fails.


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## The Middleman

Chaparral said:


> I think surviving infidelity has changed a lot. You might want to read a few threads there now. Some of the posts are great. I see very few rug sweepers there.


Admittedly, I haven't been there in a pretty long time. Main point of my reply is don't bring her here ... for Cam's sake.


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## lordmayhem

The Middleman said:


> Admittedly, I haven't been there in a pretty long time. Main point of my reply is don't bring her here ... for Cam's sake.


In fact, he should move this thread to the private section as soon as he has enough posts.


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## Evinrude58

6 months of lying with no end in sight.
It wasn't physical, she says, lol.

For reconciliation to be possible, the OP would have to actually believe something she said. 
How could the OP ever believe her about anything, ever again?
There would be no logical basis for believing her. I'd question it if she told me the sun rose in the east.

Not serving her with papers now that she is feeling some shame is the worst possible decision. He has everything to gain and nothing to lose by filing. By not filing now, he could actually lose time with his kids. If she's willing to go 50/50 with no c.s., he should jump on that. He can always cancel the divorce, or remarry after the divorce-- w a prenup.

Not filing us a huge mistake. Anyone who advises against it hasn't thought things out. They're just "reconciliation is the thing to do if possible". I think it's only best if they both love one another, and there were mitigating circumstances involved.

This is a case of low character. One can't fix that problem.


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## farsidejunky

Speaking as a Moderator:

The thread jack stops now. While intriguing, the discussion needs to be taken to its own thread.


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## Evinrude58

I would say he needs to go very slow on everything but serving her with papers which include custody and child support agreements, or at the very least a post- nup dealing with the same. 
It's going to take a long time for OP to get his head on straight so that he can make big decisions with a cool head.

I would also ask him to consider a lot of time away from her. It's plain she's using sex to manipulate him into rugsweeping.
If OP gives it some time, I think he may make the right decision. If the knowledge of what she's done finally kills the love for her, he can complete the divorce and move on. If not, and he feels she is truly remorseful, they can attempt to reconcile.

Me--I'd read and find out all I could about what went on, and what her thoughts were related to OP. Yes, it may make him want to divorce. But there's a huge chance that it will happen regardless of what he wants.
Since she is not in love with OP, she may likely change her mind and want divorce, whether or not OP wants it. If he waits to get the legal stuff done, he will be completely at her mercy and it will likely be a totally different ballgame in court when she has no guilt or shame about her betrayal.

Take your time about everything but filing. It's unfair what happens in court to dads. That I can promise. No matter what mom has done, the courts think the kids are better off with mom.

You can avoid a custody case by getting an attorney NOW.


----------



## Marc878

cam42 said:


> I asked her if she still finds me sexually attractive, she said she did and that it had nothing to do with why she was having the affair. Hopefully she's telling the truth. I want to get a polygraph done and told her if she refuses then we might as well end our marriage, she has agreed to do it. She is also going to start seeing an individual counselor. Just because I want reconciliation doesn't mean that that's the road I'm going to take. I also want to know which of her friends knew about it, if they participated in her betrayal then my wife will have to cut them off if she wants to stay with me. Harsh but I was deceived for six months straight.* My wife wouldn't be so evil to **** me over in the CS arrangement or custody, especially not at the moment with her guilt.* I will be prepared just in case, if a divorce is on our future I'll fight for fairness. Can I get a child custody arrangement in place that makes it 50/50 even if we divorce like now? better to take advantage of her guilt.
> 
> She's going to IC and also has mentioned she wants to write on a forum, she mentioned surviving infidelity to me. I'm not sure if that's a good idea, I wouldn't want her writing on here (hypocritical by me) or maybe I should want that. She doesn't know I write on here, did any of your spouses know you were writing on this forum?


You never thought she'd cheat on you either did you?

Good idea to check out her friends.


----------



## drifting on

Cam42

Hopefully things have settled a little bit to the point you can breathe normal and that crushing feeling subsiding. Gradually you have been entering into disbelief, the feeling of being lost, and questioning everything regarding your marriage. This is all normal, you weren't the only person to feel this way. The feeling of being lost is absolutely terrible, and it can consume you to very bad levels. That's where you begin to feel as if nothing has value anymore, so be careful about this. 

If your wife has gone to her moms then you are going to feel some panic or anxiety. Since you can't trust your wife, ask your mother in law to keep you informed of her whereabouts. If she won't do this then you will need to do what you should have already been doing, trust but verify. Your wife leaving is to give you space and time to sort of clear your head to prepare you for the path you eventually decide. So you will basically be working on two paths at the moment. You should be talking to an attorney to know your rights, getting paperwork to fill out for divorce. Since you have not ruled out reconciliation, you should be familiarizing yourself with that path. 

What you should know now is what can you move past. If sex was your deal breaker, can you move past to reconcile? You need to ask yourself all of this to even consider reconciliation. Also, if you decide to reconcile, you are still a man and not a chump. I can't say how hard and painful divorce may be, but I can tell you reconciliation is very difficult, quite possibly some of the hardest work you will ever do. I don't want that to scare you, but to make you informed of what you are getting into. If you choose to reconcile, you need to inform your wife of one detail, you may decide to divorce if it comes down to you not being able to get past the affair. You can't say divorce if it becomes difficult, you can't say divorce if you get in an argument, divorce is for if you can't move past the affair. 

Upon your wife returning to the marital home you have to have ground rules in place. These are better known as boundaries and are not negotiable in any way. One boundary would be for your wife to report to you that a guy she works with begins to talk of personal nature. Such as asking questions regarding her marriage, let's do lunch, let's get drinks after work, and so on. You decide these boundaries.

Also while your wife is gone, move all of her belongings into the spare bedroom if you have one. Your wife needs to feel and visualize the consequences. She has regret now, remorse may or may not come soon, but you can't begin to reconcile until she feels remorse. Remorse is crucial in this process, without it you won't reconcile. 

Praying for you and your family Cam, God bless.


----------



## MattMatt

MODERATOR NOTE:-

This thread has been tidied up due to threadjacking.

Despite a previous warning, some members persisted in threadjacking.

Regrettably, action had to be taken as a result of this.


----------



## MEM2020

Cam,
I'd like to offer you a belated welcome to TAM. You seem like a genuinely good guy and a level headed one at that. The links below are likely worth the 5 minutes they take to read.

Just so you are clear on my orientation: If you had a good marriage (which you clearly did), staying a reconciling is what a strong, good person does. Recon - the real deal - is a show of strength, not weakness. 

But real recon is indeed difficult as it requires a level of transparency that is quite scary. 

There is a fairly vocal crowd of folks here who all remind me of that scene in Monty Python and the holy grail where the mob is shouting: Burn her, she's a witch. 

Those folks have their own agenda and will try to convince you that deviation from their agenda is proof positive that you are weak. I am not a big fan of their agenda which feels WAY more focused on punishment than truth. 

I have another link somewhere on disclosure. I will find it for you. In the meantime: punitive, vindictive disclosure is something that many, many folks regret. I'll go find my link. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/315681-cwi-strategy.html





cam42 said:


> I asked her if she still finds me sexually attractive, she said she did and that it had nothing to do with why she was having the affair. Hopefully she's telling the truth. I want to get a polygraph done and told her if she refuses then we might as well end our marriage, she has agreed to do it. She is also going to start seeing an individual counselor. Just because I want reconciliation doesn't mean that that's the road I'm going to take. I also want to know which of her friends knew about it, if they participated in her betrayal then my wife will have to cut them off if she wants to stay with me. Harsh but I was deceived for six months straight. My wife wouldn't be so evil to **** me over in the CS arrangement or custody, especially not at the moment with her guilt. I will be prepared just in case, if a divorce is on our future I'll fight for fairness. Can I get a child custody arrangement in place that makes it 50/50 even if we divorce like now? better to take advantage of her guilt.
> 
> She's going to IC and also has mentioned she wants to write on a forum, she mentioned surviving infidelity to me. I'm not sure if that's a good idea, I wouldn't want her writing on here (hypocritical by me) or maybe I should want that. She doesn't know I write on here, did any of your spouses know you were writing on this forum?


----------



## drifting on

Cam42

How are you holding up? Have you learned of any new developments?


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## curious234

CAM42. Looks to me your wife showed more remorse few after D day. I wonder it is because she definitely came to know that the affair partner is listening to his wife and ending the affair


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## Empty Shell of a Man

cam42 said:


> Hi I'm Cameron or you can call me Cam whatever you prefer. I'm 42 years old and have three kids two dogs and a faithful loyal wife, HA. Tried to make a joke I guess but on to the story, I'm actually really hurting.
> 
> So basically my wife and I have been together since we were 20 and we got married 24. Our marriage has been pretty good so far, we barely argued had an active sex life and have great kids. Neither of us smoke, neither of us are alcoholics and both of us are physically fit/healthy. Our intimacy and sex life has dwindled for the last few years I attribute that to stress from our jobs, us getting older and marriage being more routine. Basically were both at fault for that part, our communication should have been better. Our bedroom certainly wasn't dead but the intimacy wasn't like when we were newlyweds. I blame our communication for that too.
> 
> On to the story, so my wife 41 female, has been having an "emotional affair" with her co-worker who is also married. A week ago a mutual friend spotted my wife and this dude out on a date basically and texted me about it. The mutual friend is actually more of her friend and is also female, it was a fairly nice restaurant and it looked pretty weird to her to see my wife who is married out with this man. She also noted that they were holding hands, how ****ing cute. She told me and I confronted my wife when she got home (5 days ago). I asked for the full details of the affair but she cried and said it will just hurt me even more.
> 
> Basically she has been having an emotional/sexting affair with this co worker for 6 months. I would of never suspected her having an affair, but she was certainly texting her girlfriends a lot and laughing. She's apart of a group chat with her friends so I was naive as hell. I was devastated when she admitted it she also didn't admit it right away. She told me we felt more like roommates than lovers and this jackass just made her feel so special inside (probably literally) as well. Throughout her affair she wasn't cold or that distant to me, she was still very loving and affectionate towards me and we still had sex. You're telling me this ******* is wining and dining my wife and he's not getting any? Yeah right.
> 
> The wife was the most kindest, sweetest, loyal person who I thought adored me and I did her. All our friends think we have one of the best marriages out of all of them. Wife is swearing up and down nothing happened between them, she is what I read tickle truthing me. She didn't even admit to the sexting until I pushed for it. I'm incredibly angry with her and have been sleeping in separate beds, when I look at her I feel physically sick. I've been as cold as ice towards her and the kids have started to take notice. I also broke down and said how could you ****ing do this to me? I shouldn't have done this but I was in so much shock and still am, I cry in private now though. She also flipped out on me when I called her a cheating *****, I've never called her a ***** ***** **** **** ever. She said "See you don't give a **** about me anymore you ****ing ****". Coming from the cheating partner oh the irony.
> 
> I have read about 180s and trying to make it look like I don't care and that's what I've been doing so far. Does anyone have experience with this? She said she doesn't want a divorce but she's so confused and she does have strong feelings for the AP. I have alerted his wife by the way. She's saying she won't text him anymore and I think she needs to quit her job. Also I very doubt their affair was just emotional. She's also saying she doesn't want a divorce. I'm absolutely devastated and am trying hard to hide it, I've also been going hard at the gym. No one knows except her friend and me and other mans wife.
> 
> Should I divorce? (she said she doesn't want one) Should I reconcile? Over the past 5 days she's seemed remorseful and not at the same time, if that makes sense? This is a woman who was so proud of our relationship and what we have built together, it's now all just destroyed. She told me she's sorry that she did this and she's sorry that I don't believe that it's not just emotional. I've lost my appetite and don't know what to do anymore, please help.
> 
> Also a friend of mine knows, I asked him for help on what I should do and he redirected me here and told me all about the 180 and not to make the same mistakes he made.


Two points to tell you they had sex are:

1. her need to swear
2. that she lied about the sexting 

but you already know this, so you need to get the full truth; everything, A to Z, including her feelings, intentions, etc. Although I have not read all the threads yet, it is likely that you must prepare yourself for some pretty painful stuff. 

Unless there is truth, there is no reconciliation that can last...the only way she can live with you is complete transparency AFTER truthfully answering every and any question you had. SHE has to regain trust, not you. Please don't fall into the trap of blaming yourself. It does say much about you; masculine, responsible, etc, but in this case, unless you were beating her, or cheating on her, denying her all closeness, etc...this was her doing. 

I say this with experience. 

If you stay together, please know that you will suffer for the rest of your life. It gets better, but it never goes away. Triggers of memory of the pain can come from anywhere at any time. 

Going into it sober minded is best. 

Good luck! I hope you are taking good care of yourself and protecting the kids from the emotional trauma that leaks out.

PS: as a faithful family man, you're be a great catch for a good woman. God bless you, brother. I hope you're okay.


----------



## Empty Shell of a Man

sokillme said:


> Since she is agreeing to STD's sounds like it was a PA. For lots of men, that makes it worse. I really don't think there is a difference. Both are monstrous.
> 
> Better off to think of your wife as dead. This woman is an imposter. Stop trying to be her husband, she fired you. She doesn't get to hire you back now that the new guy didn't' work out. Again understand all her apologies and face saving is just protecting her ass. It just makes her worse in my opinion.
> 
> I have mixed feelings about sleeping with the wife. I will say that the marriage contract is broken once there has been a PA, so I don't think you are cheating. Marriage is the only contract where the party, that has the terms that were promised broken, yet some still expect them to hold up their end of the bargain. That seem like crap to me, ridiculously unfair, it's a contract, not a license to be abused. However, I don't think it fixes much and often makes it worse but I won't judge you.
> 
> Can you go on a weeks vacation alone? Go see friends or family without her. Let her suffer a little. She needs to and it will give you some feeling of justice.




well, maybe a bluff.


Tell her that you "balanced the accounts."


----------



## cam42

She is at her mothers, and has been there for a few days. It's been very hard trying to explain the reasoning to our teenage kids, as they are still begging to know. So is our youngest daughter, all we told them is that we need some time apart for a bit. I'm doing better mentally, but I still have my moments. The OM is not at the job anymore, she still said she wants our marriage to work. I still don't know...


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

cam42 said:


> She is at her mothers, and has been there for a few days. It's been very hard trying to explain the reasoninag to our teenage kids, as they are still begging to know. So is our youngest daughter, all we told them is that we need some time apart for a bit. I'm doing better mentally, but I still have my moments. The OM is not at the job anymore, she still said she wants our marriage to work. I still don't know...


Take your time. Think your situation through. The good thing is you are in the drivers' seat. My advice would be to keep her out of the home for four to six weeks. She HAS to feel some pain for her actions. She needs to know how you felt. Women are all about feelings. Ask her sometime, " How would you feel if I betrayed you? How would you react?">


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## sokillme

cam42 said:


> She is at her mothers, and has been there for a few days. It's been very hard trying to explain the reasoning to our teenage kids, as they are still begging to know. So is our youngest daughter, all we told them is that we need some time apart for a bit. I'm doing better mentally, but I still have my moments. The OM is not at the job anymore, she still said she wants our marriage to work. I still don't know...


Why are you hiding it from your kids? She doesn't deserve your protections. And you sure as hell don't deserve any of the blame. If they are teenagers they are old enough to know. Live your life authentically you will feel happier if you do. I would never lie for anyone.

Lack of consequences is why she did what she did. She has probably been allowed to get away with being a jerk for a long time. You protecting her just continues the enabling dynamic.


----------



## barbados

cam42 said:


> She is at her mothers, and has been there for a few days. It's been very hard trying to explain the reasoning to our teenage kids, as they are still begging to know. So is our youngest daughter, all we told them is that we need some time apart for a bit. I'm doing better mentally, but I still have my moments. The OM is not at the job anymore, she still said she wants our marriage to work. *I still don't know...*


Cam,

I have found it more than a little disturbing that you have been wanting R right from the jump of this thread. Your WW cheated on you in the scariest way possible, in that she was fully capable of leading a full second life with her POSOM all while acting completely normal to you and still fully sexual with you. That's a scary cheater. You should be terrified of the thought of R'ing with someone capable of that.

Many of the people here who have R'ed (not all, but most) were cut off sexually by there WS during, and usually before, the A.

You REALLY have to take this into account. She is not your "average cheater". Good Luck


----------



## JohnA

At some point this will just turn into a pity party, them cam will drift off to a midlife crisis of quiet despair and hopelessness. When he dies people will just spare a passing thought "nice guy" and their lives will go on unaffected. 

Cam, have you read the back story of some of the posters here? Well one of them has a background in LEO and is only posting here because his gun misfired when he tried to eat lead. He is three year post DDay, raising two children who for the first two years of their life thought they where his. Not MOM who his wife had an EA with. Care this guess which one? Read some back story. 

Another poster here started posting several months ago, has two daughters and sounded just like you. He is in the UK so it require a year separation. It ripped him up but amazing his relationship with his two pre-teen daughters is deeper and continues to deepen. Again guess who. Read the back stories. 

One poster wrote this on a different thread in a response to me:



Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnA View Post
When I read newbies threads the first thing I pray they do is establish "what if" plans like the one you describe. You can't reconcile while in fear. Can't be done. Having a clear exit plan and post divorce life in place allows someone the strength to reconcile. I know @Danny4133 is divorcing but once he had establish alternate living arrangements and had filled out the paper work I could see taking time to take one last look, which he did by observing his stbxWW behavior. *Which he did and she failed.*



JohnA

One of the many things a betrayed spouse needs to do in the beginning is to let your emotions settle. From there you still have many decisions before you, but you must find that you will be ok with or without your marriage. If you can't do this I don't believe a true reconciliation is possible. You can't reconcile out of fear, stay for the kids, or if you are unable to move past the betrayal. You have to find yourself enough to know that you will be ok no matter what.*

Once I knew this and that I could move forward beyond the betrayal I thought I could reconcile. I made plans in the event reconciliation would fail, I made plans if reconciliation went well. I worked on myself to get stronger and more independent. My wife had a choice also, move forward or stay left behind. She began doing the same work as I, she devoted herself as I did. I found how I was fallible in my recovery, the toxins I brought to the marriage. It's hard work without a doubt, you must both be willing to see your faults and correct them.*

I know I chose a difficult path, I tried to prepare myself as best I could. I have plans for reconciliation if it works or fails, so far we are making it. I hope we make it, but if we don't I will leave this relationship a much better man then when I entered. I will be ok, I will still be a father to the boys, but I won't enter into another serious relationship, and I'm ok with that.


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## JohnA

Now adultery is adultery, issues are issues DO NOT CONFUSE THE TWO. *Two men, both lonely. *One goes out and rapes someone. *The other posts on dating sites, attends social functions, volunteers at several places meets someone and becomes intimate. * Get it the difference? *So why did she chose adultery, not what caused her to make a choice. *And how do you fix that.*

Then the issues: *first how the hell could you not know for six months??? *Is she an Oscar winning performer? *Second how the hell did se not know how loved she already was? *The point is you both where missing ways to communicate and listen. *Bye the way the second question is her's to answer. *

I am telling you your marriage is savable but not until you get off the dime and follow the advise to first stand up and demand remorses and get it though her actions. *I gave you a link early on to a thread where the WW was in an EA/PA with co-worker, family friends, sexting with a second MOM and was being hit on by third MOM to join a swinger group. * They are going on amazingly one year plus on. *We PM on occasion and they keep getting better. *

So what are you going to do ?*


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## JohnA

One last 4x4: does her mother know why she is there? Does she support the marriage? Can you see why that matters?


----------



## aine

cam42 said:


> Hi I'm Cameron or you can call me Cam whatever you prefer. I'm 42 years old and have three kids two dogs and a faithful loyal wife, HA. Tried to make a joke I guess but on to the story, I'm actually really hurting.
> 
> So basically my wife and I have been together since we were 20 and we got married 24. Our marriage has been pretty good so far, we barely argued had an active sex life and have great kids. Neither of us smoke, neither of us are alcoholics and both of us are physically fit/healthy. Our intimacy and sex life has dwindled for the last few years I attribute that to stress from our jobs, us getting older and marriage being more routine. Basically were both at fault for that part, our communication should have been better. Our bedroom certainly wasn't dead but the intimacy wasn't like when we were newlyweds. I blame our communication for that too.
> 
> On to the story, so my wife 41 female, has been having an "emotional affair" with her co-worker who is also married. A week ago a mutual friend spotted my wife and this dude out on a date basically and texted me about it. The mutual friend is actually more of her friend and is also female, it was a fairly nice restaurant and it looked pretty weird to her to see my wife who is married out with this man. She also noted that they were holding hands, how ****ing cute. She told me and I confronted my wife when she got home (5 days ago). I asked for the full details of the affair but she cried and said it will just hurt me even more.
> 
> Basically she has been having an emotional/sexting affair with this co worker for 6 months. I would of never suspected her having an affair, but she was certainly texting her girlfriends a lot and laughing. She's apart of a group chat with her friends so I was naive as hell. I was devastated when she admitted it she also didn't admit it right away. She told me we felt more like roommates than lovers and this jackass just made her feel so special inside (probably literally) as well. Throughout her affair she wasn't cold or that distant to me, she was still very loving and affectionate towards me and we still had sex. You're telling me this ******* is wining and dining my wife and he's not getting any? Yeah right.
> 
> The wife was the most kindest, sweetest, loyal person who I thought adored me and I did her. All our friends think we have one of the best marriages out of all of them. Wife is swearing up and down nothing happened between them, she is what I read tickle truthing me. She didn't even admit to the sexting until I pushed for it. I'm incredibly angry with her and have been sleeping in separate beds, when I look at her I feel physically sick. I've been as cold as ice towards her and the kids have started to take notice. I also broke down and said how could you ****ing do this to me? I shouldn't have done this but I was in so much shock and still am, I cry in private now though. She also flipped out on me when I called her a cheating *****, I've never called her a ***** ***** **** **** ever. She said "See you don't give a **** about me anymore you ****ing ****". Coming from the cheating partner oh the irony.
> 
> I have read about 180s and trying to make it look like I don't care and that's what I've been doing so far. Does anyone have experience with this? She said she doesn't want a divorce but she's so confused and she does have strong feelings for the AP. I have alerted his wife by the way. She's saying she won't text him anymore and I think she needs to quit her job. Also I very doubt their affair was just emotional. She's also saying she doesn't want a divorce. I'm absolutely devastated and am trying hard to hide it, I've also been going hard at the gym. No one knows except her friend and me and other mans wife.
> 
> Should I divorce? (she said she doesn't want one) Should I reconcile? Over the past 5 days she's seemed remorseful and not at the same time, if that makes sense? This is a woman who was so proud of our relationship and what we have built together, it's now all just destroyed. She told me she's sorry that she did this and she's sorry that I don't believe that it's not just emotional. I've lost my appetite and don't know what to do anymore, please help.
> 
> Also a friend of mine knows, I asked him for help on what I should do and he redirected me here and told me all about the 180 and not to make the same mistakes he made.


who cares whether she wants a divorce or reconciliation; it is not her decision, it is YOURS.

Keep doing what you are doing, 180, the gym, you might be dying inside but don't let it show. 
She isn't showing any remorse at all, when she is so confused, that means she wants to have her cake and eat it still. She needs to be kicked out of that fog, tell her family immediately. if the kids are old enough tell them too. Kids are teenagers, they know....
Go see a lawyer and check your options. 
Tell her family, your family and all friends, it is her shame, not yours, do not hide it, she needs accountability right now, she needs to feel the mark of shame, so that she knows the depths she has sunk to. I am not seeing any remorse, just talk and more talk.


you are seeing a lawyer, you haven't made up your mind whether you want a divorce or not yet but what she does in the next 4 weeks will be the deciding factor for you. She has to give you access to all passwords, to phones, pc, social media etc without any complaint, otherwise it is a done deal and you are walking
you have to go to MC before you make your final decision (remember you are in a state of flux right now, not a good time to make a decision, take your time)

If you don't handle this decisively and swiftly there is no chance of a true reconciliation (if you want one- you must go scorched earth here)


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## Empty Shell of a Man

cam42 said:


> She is at her mothers, and has been there for a few days. It's been very hard trying to explain the reasoning to our teenage kids, as they are still begging to know. So is our youngest daughter, all we told them is that we need some time apart for a bit. I'm doing better mentally, but I still have my moments. The OM is not at the job anymore, she still said she wants our marriage to work. I still don't know...


I respect you for keeping it from the kids. 

My ex wife took my 12 year old daughter into adult confidence...she knew it was wrong, so she would just cry in front of her and say, "I can't really tell you what's going on..." playing on my daughter's empathy. This, of course, led to her giving a little girl lots of adult detail. 

10 years later, I was not welcome to my daughter's wedding. 

Prior to that, we were as close as can be. 

Kids end up respecting the parent who refuses to bash the other, in the long run. My daughter will come around. She intellectually knows what her mother did, but the young age combined with hormonal increase of the emotional reactions, made it sketched in her mind. 

I still think your wife should be permitted to 'just consider' the possibility that you and her boyfriend's wife were intimate. 

It might be good rx for her.


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## sokillme

Empty Shell of a Man said:


> I respect you for keeping it from the kids.
> 
> My ex wife took my 12 year old daughter into adult confidence...she knew it was wrong, so she would just cry in front of her and say, "I can't really tell you what's going on..." playing on my daughter's empathy. This, of course, led to her giving a little girl lots of adult detail.
> 
> 10 years later, I was not welcome to my daughter's wedding.
> 
> Prior to that, we were as close as can be.
> 
> Kids end up respecting the parent who refuses to bash the other, in the long run. My daughter will come around. She intellectually knows what her mother did, but the young age combined with hormonal increase of the emotional reactions, made it sketched in her mind.
> 
> I still think your wife should be permitted to 'just consider' the possibility that you and her boyfriend's wife were intimate.
> 
> It might be good rx for her.


No one is advising bashing. "We are divorcing because your mother is cheating on me, because of that I can't stay married. I would advise you to do the same if it happened to you. Everyone has a right to expect their spouses to follow the vows they made. This doesn't mean I don't love you and it will not change our relationship." 

This is the healthy way to deal with the problem not to continue to lie about it and continue the dysfunction of secrets that was already introduced into the family by his wife's infidelity. Again these kids are teenagers and need examples of living their lives authentically, and not allowing yourself to be abused or bullied.


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## Mr.Fisty

My advice is neutral and based on how you process everything, changes made by the other to work on their personal issues and if they can have the ability on their own over time to place themselves in a better environment whether it is cutting out friends. Logically, if I were in your position, I would see how much of the bridge is burned and whether you can repair it or end up scrapping it because the damage is already done. That will take time and some assessment. You may be able to forgive her one day or you may never be able to look at her again but that has now become your personal issue to work on. In any case, this issue that has been thrust upon you will have to be worked on for your own sake whether this marriage survives or not. And, with the stipulation she seeks counseling, even if things do not work out, the children will have a healthy or healthier mother should she also someday be in another relationship.

Still, it does not hurt to protect yourself at the moment. Wait and see if you like to see how she comes out the other end after therapy for a while and date again for a year or two before truly reconciling or if the bridged is damage beyond your ability or will to fix, let it collapse. You can separate and reconcile at the same time and stay on the fence. If you are worth it to her, she can wait and if not, hopefully she still seeks help as I am sure no one wants her to date a string of men or end up divorcing again in the future from the same circumstances. What I mean is separate, date and communicate but be legally separated if you need to protect yourself or get a divorce started if that is what it takes to make you feel safe. The goal is how to get you to a better place that you are currently in.


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## gr8ful1

As the father of multiple teenage daughters I absolutely think they should know. They can be told without bashing but I think it's critical to see infidelity has consequences - your pain, separation of spouses, etc. This is not revenge. The truth needs to come out to immediate family members.


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## TheGoodGuy

gr8ful1 said:


> As the father of multiple teenage daughters I absolutely think they should know. They can be told without bashing but I think it's critical to see infidelity has consequences - your pain, separation of spouses, etc. This is not revenge. The truth needs to come out to immediate family members.


Quote for Truth!


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## lordmayhem

sokillme said:


> Why are you hiding it from your kids? She doesn't deserve your protections. And you sure as hell don't deserve any of the blame. If they are teenagers they are old enough to know. Live your life authentically you will feel happier if you do. I would never lie for anyone.


Agreed. Also, the tendency is to blame dad for the cause of the problem. Not saying it's right, but that's what children tend to do because they can't imagine their mom being the cause unless she was outright abusive to them. I know in iluvmyjava's case, WW was outright rubbing the affair in his face and his daughters were still blaming him for the cause of the break up.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Cam,

You have to act in a bold fashion and in a forceful manner. She has not incurred any consequences. I think you really need to get to the heart of the matter as to why she did what she did. After much pondering, it is my humble opinion your daughters need to know in general what she did and how she was caught. Do not get into the details just a high level view. They need to know their father is blameless for what is transpiring. And by all means get the petition for dissolution of marriage prepared. She has to feel the pain. She has to feel your pain. I think you are losing your resolve from reading these later posts by you and you appear to be looking at the absolute worst thing that could happen. Do not do that. I cannot emphasize enough that it is essential that she feel your pain.

You have to show her you are strong and yes I will be fine with or without you. You must demonstrate strength. You have the leverage in this situation. Use it to your advantage no matter what your course of action is.


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## Relationship Teacher

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Cam,
> 
> You have to act in a bold fashion and in a forceful manner. She has not incurred any consequences. I think you really need to get to the heart of the matter as to why she did what she did. After much pondering, it is my humble opinion your daughters need to know in general what she did and how she was caught.


Rarely advisable. Only inform children if there is a chance that they may hear about it from others.



> Do not get into the details just a high level view. They need to know their father is blameless for what is transpiring.


Never true.



> And by all means get the petition for dissolution of marriage prepared. She has to feel the pain.


Not part of any plan, unless dissolution is already desired.



> She has to feel your pain. I think you are losing your resolve from reading these later posts by you and you appear to be looking at the absolute worst thing that could happen. Do not do that. I cannot emphasize enough that it is essential that she feel your pain.


She does need to empathize and sympathize with Cam.


To tell or not to tell his children.......

"In general, don't tell the children", says Paul Peluso.

That said, children MUST be informed that there are marital issues. Children are very perceptive of emotions and feed off of the parental relationship for safety and security.

This is Peluso's list of when to tell the children:

-If the child will find out through other avenues, as I stated above.
-A child is born from the affair.
-The children are adolescent and have likely gathered enough information to suspect it.
-The unfaithful plans to stay with the affairee.

He didn't list this one, but does explain it in another part of the book, that children told of the affair by one partner need to be clued in by both. 

I hope this helps for the context of Cam's situation.

Peluso, P. R. (2007). Infidelity : A Practitioner’s Guide to Working with Couples in Crisis. New York: Routledge.


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## inging

gr8ful1 said:


> As the father of multiple teenage daughters I absolutely think they should know. They can be told without bashing but I think it's critical to see infidelity has consequences - your pain, separation of spouses, etc. This is not revenge. The truth needs to come out to immediate family members.


Also have multiple teenage daughters. i think it is more important with girls. They need to know that acting like a teenage gilr is only acceptable when you actually are a teenage girl


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## Evinrude58

My vote is for telling the kids. They should know why their life is being blown up so they can have no doubt it's their fault. I hear most kids think that.

They still might not understand why she won't return to the marriage or why you can't accept her back. Betrayal is a pain nobody truly knows until it happens to them.

But they will know. And when they're older, they'll respect you for it.
Just never badmouth their mother, as they will still love her and it will hurt them to hear bad things that aren't required to be said.


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## Doyle

Just wanted to point out that* IF* you decide to R she should change jobs.

I know he's moved on but he did it pretty quick he could move back as quick, also works nights out etc. would be difficult if they're at the same company.

Changing jobs and taking poly test will show how committed to R she really is.


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## alte Dame

People usually say that cheating is driven by selfishness, but that explanation has never quite satisfied my own instincts. Instead, I sense that it's more of a feeling of entitlement - the cheater decides (s)he is entitled to have all the good things in life; what the spouse doesn't know won't hurt him/her, so why not just go for what life has to offer those of us who are entitled enough to be offered such options?

There is so often a patronizing, condescending attitude on the part of the cheater, where the clueless spouses are devalued. When the betrayed spouse finds out, this power imbalance is often intensified, since the cheater feels so 'desired,' while the betrayed feels lost and defeated.

That sense of entitlement has to go, in my opinion, in order to decide on reconciliation. It's not just that the playing field needs to be leveled so that the cheater is no longer so smug about desirability, but that it almost needs to shift to put the BS in the power position. The BS needs to regain confidence, but also should come to see the truth of the cheater/betrayed dynamic, which is that the cheater is by definition the stigmatized one. After all, society doesn't officially admire people who lie and cheat. That's why the liars and cheaters are so determined to hide it most of the time.

Anyway, I think you have shown good instincts so far & have taken measures to shift the playing field in your favor. The 180 should help you detach enough to be able to make a decision that is not so reactive and desperate. Many people who have been betrayed and tried to reconcile show buyer's remorse a year or two down the line. Often they find that no matter how hard they try, they've lost love and respect for their WS's and the future with said WS looks bleak. Not committing to R right now will help you figure out how your feelings for your WW are evolving as you come out of the shock stage.


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## Mr.Fisty

alte Dame said:


> People usually say that cheating is driven by selfishness, but that explanation has never quite satisfied my own instincts. Instead, I sense that it's more of a feeling of entitlement - the cheater decides (s)he is entitled to have all the good things in life; what the spouse doesn't know won't hurt him/her, so why not just go for what life has to offer those of us who are entitled enough to be offered such options?
> 
> There is so often a patronizing, condescending attitude on the part of the cheater, where the clueless spouses are devalued. When the betrayed spouse finds out, this power imbalance is often intensified, since the cheater feels so 'desired,' while the betrayed feels lost and defeated.
> 
> That sense of entitlement has to go, in my opinion, in order to decide on reconciliation. It's not just that the playing field needs to be leveled so that the cheater is no longer so smug about desirability, but that it almost needs to shift to put the BS in the power position. The BS needs to regain confidence, but also should come to see the truth of the cheater/betrayed dynamic, which is that the cheater is by definition the stigmatized one. After all, society doesn't officially admire people who lie and cheat. That's why the liars and cheaters are so determined to hide it most of the time.
> 
> Anyway, I think you have shown good instincts so far & have taken measures to shift the playing field in your favor. The 180 should help you detach enough to be able to make a decision that is not so reactive and desperate. Many people who have been betrayed and tried to reconcile show buyer's remorse a year or two down the line. Often they find that no matter how hard they try, they've lost love and respect for their WS's and the future with said WS looks bleak. Not committing to R right now will help you figure out how your feelings for your WW are evolving as you come out of the shock stage.



That is brushing the whole thing. I have read where the BS nearly asphyxiated the WS before the WS was a WS. The WS was beaten regularly and told how worthless she is. Sure, probably most cheat because they simply give into their impulses. And those neglected, you probably want them to divorce first but prior to cheating simply stating they do not deserve to be cherish is fine but do not tell me the one that neglects deserves a loyal spouse when they neglect someone. Context is always important. If the other spouse stops caring about the other's well-being I am not going to have more sympathy because they were cheated on. If the spouse instead of cheating committed suicide or attempted it instead of cheating should I tell the abuse victim what a selfish action suicide is and tell them that their abuser had nothing to do with their choice to commit suicide, there is no correlation. 

Should I tell my aunt she is a terrible person for cheating and feels entitled to be cared about after her ex lost them their home, everything because he was a drug addict dealer and suffered so much mental and emotional abuse? Did she feel entitled or did she just sought someone to love her and cherish her? Guess what, the man she ended up having an affair with help put her life together and my cousins have fa ther they well love. They have nothing to do with their biological father. You can disagree but I am not going to feel sorry for the guy that runs off and left them homeless, broke, and starving.


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## EleGirl

inging said:


> Also have multiple teenage daughters. i think it is more important with girls. They need to know that acting like a teenage gilr is only acceptable when you actually are a teenage girl


I don't get this. Why is it more important with girls? When a man cheats, it's just as important that his sons know that cheating is wrong and that they should not behave that way.

Here's an interesting article on what children learn from a parent who has an affair.

Infidelity: The Lessons Children Learn

One of the reasons for telling children about the affair in an age appropriate manner is to that these sad lessons can be dealt with and the children can unlearn them, and can learn good coping skills.


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## ABHale

Cam you need to have your wife tell your kids what happened with you there. They have the right to know.


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## inging

EleGirl said:


> I don't get this. Why is it more important with girls? When a man cheats, it's just as important that his sons know that cheating is wrong and that they should not behave that way.


 Yes. ( sorry it was late) 
It is equally important when a man cheats and the children are boys. We model our behaviour on our parents and specifically get clues to behaviour from the same sex parent to their future behaviour. 

All kids should be told because they have mind movies too that need to be addressed. They are feeling denial, anger and depression and then not told the reason for the loss of their family and these awful feelings . Is that not a betrayal by both parents.


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## TDSC60

Cam - any updates?


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## cam42

Well we went to a family counseling session and it was all brought out in the open. All hell broke loose, our youngest just crying and hugging me while the teenagers also hysterical saying they can't believe her. It was difficult getting her to admit to what she did, but it happened. They're all mad with their mother, telling me they're sorry for what she's done to me. Everyone is devastated. Wife's std results came in, all clean. She is still at her mothers, she has said she wants to come back home and I guess she is right about that, or is she? She wants to come back on Sunday. 

This is just so hard, the mood in the house has completely changed. I've been having thoughts about filing and am seriously considering it at this point. She has said she wants to reconcile and not just for the kids. When will I know what I want?


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## becareful2

MEM2020 said:


> Just so you are clear on my orientation: If you had a good marriage (which you clearly did), staying a reconciling is what a strong, good person does. Recon - the real deal - is a show of strength, not weakness.


That is not always the case. I've seen plenty of needy, clingy betrayed spouses who had low self-esteem and who want to reconcile at all cost, so it doesn't always show strength. You also seem to imply that if a betrayed spouse chooses the divorce route, that somehow they are not a good person.


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## Marc878

You don't have to do anything right now. It's best to take time and decide what you want.

Never jump into R it should be a gift not given lightly or it'll be meaningless.


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## MEM2020

Be careful,
Speaking as a fellow citizen not a mod. 

I used the pairing of 'strong/weak' not 'good/bad'. 

And it isn't a true recon when the BS is clingy/needy. 

A true recon stripped down to it's core components is based on:
- Obtaining the truth (at whatever granularity the BS wants)
- Expressing disapproval in an effective manner (some version of: you might have done this FOR yourself, but you also did it TO me)
- A good faith team effort working to ensure a repeat won't happen
- The WS stepping up and making amends 
- The BS making it clear the WS has used up their one 'get out of jail free' card. 







becareful2 said:


> That is not always the case. I've seen plenty of needy, clingy betrayed spouses who had low self-esteem and who want to reconcile at all cost, so it doesn't always show strength. You also seem to imply that if a betrayed spouse chooses the divorce route, that somehow they are not a good person.


----------



## sokillme

Mr.Fisty said:


> That is brushing the whole thing. I have read where the BS nearly asphyxiated the WS before the WS was a WS. The WS was beaten regularly and told how worthless she is. Sure, probably most cheat because they simply give into their impulses. And those neglected, you probably want them to divorce first but prior to cheating simply stating they do not deserve to be cherish is fine but do not tell me the one that neglects deserves a loyal spouse when they neglect someone. Context is always important. If the other spouse stops caring about the other's well-being I am not going to have more sympathy because they were cheated on. If the spouse instead of cheating committed suicide or attempted it instead of cheating should I tell the abuse victim what a selfish action suicide is and tell them that their abuser had nothing to do with their choice to commit suicide, there is no correlation.
> 
> Should I tell my aunt she is a terrible person for cheating and feels entitled to be cared about after her ex lost them their home, everything because he was a drug addict dealer and suffered so much mental and emotional abuse? Did she feel entitled or did she just sought someone to love her and cherish her? Guess what, the man she ended up having an affair with help put her life together and my cousins have fa ther they well love. They have nothing to do with their biological father. You can disagree but I am not going to feel sorry for the guy that runs off and left them homeless, broke, and starving.


Decent human being 101, bad behaviors doesn't justify other bad behavior. She should have left her ex and moved on, are there levels sure, but most of the time people cheat because they are broken. Again your aunt's one story doesn't disprove the thousands of other stories where the posters words hold true.


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## sokillme

cam42 said:


> Well we went to a family counseling session and it was all brought out in the open. All hell broke loose, our youngest just crying and hugging me while the teenagers also hysterical saying they can't believe her. It was difficult getting her to admit to what she did, but it happened. They're all mad with their mother, telling me they're sorry for what she's done to me. Everyone is devastated. Wife's std results came in, all clean. She is still at her mothers, she has said she wants to come back home and I guess she is right about that, or is she? She wants to come back on Sunday.
> 
> This is just so hard, the mood in the house has completely changed. I've been having thoughts about filing and am seriously considering it at this point. She has said she wants to reconcile and not just for the kids. When will I know what I want?


Don't feel bad, learning my father cheated on my Mom and then watching him do it again to someone else was a hard thing to deal with. I still love him very much and am close with him today. I would advise any women NOT to marry him though. He is faithful to my step mom because he is almost 80, and probably doesn't have the opportunity. It is painful for me to write this but I wouldn't be shocked if he did. :crying:

I have never and will never cheat, though sometimes I wonder if I am more susceptible because of my genes. I am probably hyper-vignette about it and maybe that's a good thing, maybe I wouldn't be if I didn't' know. You know kind of like people with a family history of high cholesterol try to eat well. 

Part of the reason is I saw what it did to my Mother and me. I am acutely aware of how awful it was. Telling me made me a better person, or at least a more aware person. I am very appreciative she told me. I think in the long run your kids will be too. Your wife is dealing with the normal consequences of doing a very bad thing.


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## becareful2

MEM2020 said:


> Be careful,
> Speaking as a fellow citizen not a mod.
> 
> I used the pairing of 'strong/weak' not 'good/bad'.
> 
> And it isn't a true recon when the BS is clingy/needy.
> 
> A true recon stripped down to it's core components is based on:
> - Obtaining the truth (at whatever granularity the BS wants)
> - Expressing disapproval in an effective manner (some version of: you might have done this FOR yourself, but you also did it TO me)
> - A good faith team effort working to ensure a repeat won't happen
> - The WS stepping up and making amends
> - The BS making it clear the WS has used up their one 'get out of jail free' card.


A true R is not a true R right away, as it takes stages and time for the wayward spouse to get to a place in which they experience genuine remorse. All true Rs don't always not end up in divorce. Since you used the word "good" to describe a betrayed spouse who chooses to R, then the opposite must also be implied; that a betrayed spouse who chooses to divorce is somehow not a good person, which sounds flippant, imo. Eh, I admit, I may be out of my depth on this as I've never been betrayed.


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## Satya

There's nothing wrong with you filling divorce papers while you watch her actions. You'll not be in limbo that way and you can always take it back if you change your mind. 

My thoughts, for what they're worth... What you need to do is get VERY clear on what real remorse looks like, then watch to see if she behaves remorsefully. No prompting her for results. She has to earn trust back completely on her own, with the children as well as with you and without a blueprint. The meaning and execution of true remorse is a lesson learned from within. Meanwhile, keep having a good life with your kids and stay vigilant. You decide if and when she is remorseful, not her.


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## MEM2020

I stand corrected. I did indeed use the word good and your pairing was valid.




becareful2 said:


> A true R is not a true R right away, as it takes stages and time for the wayward spouse to get to a place in which they experience genuine remorse. All true Rs don't always not end up in divorce. Since you used the word "good" to describe a betrayed spouse who chooses to R, then the opposite must also be implied; that a betrayed spouse who chooses to divorce is somehow not a good person, which sounds flippant, imo. Eh, I admit, I may be out of my depth on this as I've never been betrayed.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

cam42 said:


> Well we went to a family counseling session and it was all brought out in the open. All hell broke loose, our youngest just crying and hugging me while the teenagers also hysterical saying they can't believe her. It was difficult getting her to admit to what she did, but it happened. They're all mad with their mother, telling me they're sorry for what she's done to me. Everyone is devastated. Wife's std results came in, all clean. She is still at her mothers, she has said she wants to come back home and I guess she is right about that, or is she? She wants to come back on Sunday.
> 
> This is just so hard, the mood in the house has completely changed. I've been having thoughts about filing and am seriously considering it at this point. She has said she wants to reconcile and not just for the kids. When will I know what I want?


Kudos on counseling Cam. You are going through a rough patch and are in emotional turmoil right now. Perfectly normal. You should consider making no decision at all until you work past the anger. Then when you reach a point of clarity make your choice whether it be R or D. Your wife is now feeling consequences of her actions it appears. 

When will you know what you want? It is different for each of us who have been through this experience. There is no set timeline for knowing your course of action. My advice to you is be patient with yourself. Secondly, in my opinion you must have time away from her. As long as she is with you in the house it is likely it will only add to your confusion. 

I feel for you as I know how my situation impacted my adult children and I can only imagine how yours being much younger feel.

You might want to consider asking your counselor about writing letters to each other and having the counselor read each of them out loud in a session. My MC had me write how her affair made me feel.she wrote a letter as to why, and apologized. This tactic brought my FWW to her knees as when my letter was read she fell out of her chair onto the floor sobbing in a fetal position for a few minutes.That one instance was where is saw the dynamics change and I knew she felt my pain.

Most of all keep an eye on your children. This is extremely rough on them as you know. I know it does not feel like it now, but you are making the right moves and it will get better. I know right now it feels like it has been an eternity but your situation is temporary. 

If you have a good pastor at your church, lean on them. Pray for guidance from the Almighty. God bless you through this situation.


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## Mr.Fisty

sokillme said:


> Decent human being 101, bad behaviors doesn't justify other bad behavior. She should have left her ex and moved on, are there levels sure, but most of the time people cheat because they are broken. Again your aunt's one story doesn't disprove the thousands of other stories where the posters words hold true.


 True, it only complicates things but let me ask you this if my aunt were to commit suicide, how would most posters feel. After all, he did not force her, he just caused mental instability. Would she be a bad person if she shot herself or would it be complicated. Context is important is all I am saying and what about the BS, why do they not leave their spouse before they break them at times with their actions? And importantly,I stated context is important and I stated that a majority of cheaters are not in that position. If the BS cannot do the right thing and cause years of misery, lets not minimize that. Posters state why did you not leave and valid but why not the BS stop or leave for the sake of their spouse prior to that.

Instead of a BS beating their spouse why not ask them to let them go. Selfishness goes both ways at time because the abusive BS wants a punching bag for their dysfunction.

Lets not also pretend that dysfunction is not always a childhood issue and sometimes develop as adults due to environment. Partners can cause dysfunction in healthy adults over time and I am just saying the BS causes the WS to be broken as you put it.

Posters on here absolve emotional abuse from BS because of cheating. They blame the WS for causing PTSD, anger problems. I am stating why not vice versa. Just like all BS do not have anger issues prior to an affair. The WS changed the BS through their action and BS can do the same for a WS as well. Some BS stay with a WS and not choose to leave while an affair is ongoing, become depress, more prone to anger. I do feel empathy as a BS myself but I would like to know the facts and not make broad generalizations with absolutes. Most cheaters are just bored, cannot control their lust or always had poor boundaries.

In the abuse cycle, abusers use hoovering as a tactic to keep their victims hooked. They take advantage of a vulnerability they have created just like a POS would. An abuser using what a POS used to ensnare their victim, not going to feel a lot of sympathy for that BS.

For instance, their was a thread where someone posted a story where the BS killed the WS and some posters on here stated she got what she deserved and those same posters tore down an abused WS stating she is no better instead of stating he gotten what he deserved.


----------



## Taxman

Well done Cam.
Outing her to the kids is a big step. She did not understand consequences. I would have divorce papers drawn up as a fair warning. Others here leave them out during the R process. They can be invoked at a moments' notice. She was bored, was she? I still would ask what her view would be of you having a six month affair? I am a firm believer in role playing the opposite view. Let her spend a few minutes in your hell.


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## drifting on

Cam42

Right now you need to take time for yourself. By that I mean this, thoughts are racing, in shock and disbelief, anger is right around the corner, and your emotions on a roller coaster that is brutal at best. What you do have is time, it is best to use this time wisely. Have your attorney begin the divorce process, I'm not saying you have to divorce, but usually there is a waiting period. If you file now, list adultery and OM as to the why. You can always stop this if you decide to reconcile. 

Next, if you can accept this, have her come home. If not then keep her away but legally she has a right to come home. You do not leave the home under any circumstances. If you have a guest room move all her belongings into it. If you don't, talk with your kids and maybe they will move in together to make a room available. Tell her that right now you have filed for divorce, tell her that her actions will tell you much in the next few months. Don't tell her anything about thinking of reconciling, you want to see if she will work to save the marriage or have you want her. 

Tell her she is to be transparent, she must also understand how much her choice has devastated the kids. Tell her she not only cheated on you but also the kids, every minute with OM was time taken away from you and/or the kids. Tell her you want to know how a mother could do such a thing. Inform your wife you are undecided, which is why you filed, but her actions over the next few months will be very telling to you. 

Cam, I also recommend IC for you as well. You are entering into a time that gets excruciating. Also, for one day mark down how many times the affair is on your mind. You will be shocked by this, and then give it to your wife. Explain to her how much of a hell your own brain is causing. Tell her she has a mountain to overcome, few can make it, so you suggest she begin to figure out herself also. Best of luck to you.


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## straightshooter

cam42 said:


> Well we went to a family counseling session and it was all brought out in the open. All hell broke loose, our youngest just crying and hugging me while the teenagers also hysterical saying they can't believe her. It was difficult getting her to admit to what she did, but it happened. They're all mad with their mother, telling me they're sorry for what she's done to me. Everyone is devastated. Wife's std results came in, all clean. *She is still at her mothers, she has said she wants to come back home and I guess she is right about that, or is she? She wants to come back on Sunday. *
> 
> This is just so hard, the mood in the house has completely changed. I've been having thoughts about filing and am seriously considering it at this point.* She has said she wants to reconcile and not just for the kids. When will I know what I want?*





Cam,

Of course she wants to come back home. She never wanted to leave home, never wanted to get caught, and would NOT have stopped out of guilt or anything else if not caught. Coming home is when and if YOU decide that, not her.
I am not telling you to divorce or reconcile but you really need to think this through some more. You may not know what you want for a good while and there is no way her actions since being caught suggest anything but regret. She resisted confession, continued contact after being caught, and this would most likely been underground if the OM did not want to save his marriage, which I guess is still up in the air. remember, he is the one who stopped the affair. Your wife was perfectly willing to continue. WW who resist or fell punished for consequences are not great candidates for R. And your comment that she was upset and pining for her boyfriend, which came from your gut ( trust your gut), is also not good.

Not sure where this OM's new job is, but it does not sound like he's moving out of geographic range. That means you are not out of the woods, especially IF his wife eventually divorces him. That is why somewhere down the road you are using your brain if you go through with a polygraph. You are not in a court of law and your wife is not a sociopath or a CIA operative likely trained to "beat' a polygraph done by a well qualified examiner. your alternative, should you stay, is to trust her because if OM is anywhere in vicinity, there is no certainty if she has feelings for him it can restart with a text or phone call.

The reason you should file for divorce ( which you can stop IF her actions warrant it), is that give her a clear timetable ( divorces take time) to PROVE to you, not SAY to you, that she is staying for the right reasons, not just the kids. She has stated she will do anything. Really?? What is her definition of anything.???? Giving you a BJ????

You've done well progressing through this **** storm. And you now have control of the narrative here. Even if you decide to try reconciliation, having her right at the precipice by filing will insure you stay in control. 

Good luck in your decision. Do it when you are ready, not when your wife is ready. What she wants was forfeited when she climbed into bed repeatedly with OM.


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## phillybeffandswiss

File, you can always stop the process. Consequences suck, but they need to be enacted. If she would have done this EARLY, I'd be more inclined to say follow drifiting on's advice. I rarely believe regret when someone is caught, but it can happen. I do not give anyone the benefit of the doubt when they make a decision, it falls through and THEN they come crawling back.


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## sokillme

Mr.Fisty said:


> True, it only complicates things but let me ask you this if my aunt were to commit suicide, how would most posters feel.


Using your same logic what would say if she had shot and killed him?


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## Graywolf2

cam42 said:


> My wife was the most kindest, sweetest, loyal person who I thought adored me and I did her. All our friends think we have one of the best marriages out of all of them.


Even the best of things can have a downside. Because of the above and the fact that you’re a nice stable family guy your wife felt more secure to have an affair. She didn’t expect to be caught but if she was you would never leave her. She could say all the right things and everything would just go back to the way it was before. 

I read about a guy that also had a great marriage. Like yours it was the envy of all their friends. In fact he and his wife were planning a world cruise to celebrate their 25th anniversary. Then he found out that his wife was having a torrid affair. She said she was so sorry and expected things to just go back to the way they were. She couldn’t believe it when her husband cancelled the cruise and lost a substantial deposit. Sex wasn’t a big deal to her. Her marriage was so perfect that she couldn’t imagine her husband ending it over something so trivial.

What I will never understand is how she was sincerely shocked when her husband cancelled the cruise. She knew he would be upset but why cancel a cruise that they had been looking forward to for so long? She just didn't get it. In fact his cancelation of the cruise was the first indication (for her) that the marriage was in trouble.


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## Graywolf2

cam42 said:


> I've been having thoughts about filing and am seriously considering it at this point.


You should file even if you ultimately want to keep her. Divorce needs to be on the table this time so that she knows that it will happen for sure if she does it again. IMO the biggest mistake a BS makes is to offer R right out of the gate, That sends the message that what the WS did must not have been so bad after all. It’s like getting caught and just put on “double secret probation.”

_Originally used in the 1978 American college classic film "Animal House," Dean Wormer puts the rowdy Delta Tau Chi fraternity on a "double secret probation," since the Delta House is already on probation. The term has since evolved to mean the act of being on probation while still partying on a regular basis.
_
*Bottom line, because of your character and great marriage your wife felt as if she had infidelity insurance. Don’t prove her right. You need to prove to her that the policy has now lapsed by filing for divorce.*

At the very least let her stay at her mother’s a bit longer. Her coming home is not an emergency. The kids can visit her at grandmas if they want. File for divorce, get the paperwork and talk to her about the terms. Make it real for her. Take the time to think about what you want to do: D or give R a chance. Do not promise R, just promise to give it a chance.


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## Graywolf2

cam42 said:


> Wife's std results came in, all clean.


They are “all clean” *so far*. Some STD tests use an antibody to the disease that can take up to six months for your body to produce. Those tests have to be repeated in six months. Ask your doctor.


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## Doyle

I would still poly to find out if this is the only time.

Sorry but you need to know.


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## Vinnydee

Cheaters will not admit to cheating most times. They will say there was no sex almost every time unless you catch them in the act. Even then they will say it is not what it looks like. As for her seeing a girl, my wife had a girlfriend for 30 years who lived with us on and off, so do not think that just because your wife is dating a girl, that sex is not happening. I was lucky because my wife did not want to have sex with her girlfriend unless I was OK with it and took part to show her I was OK with it. My first fiancee is bi and now married to a woman. My second girlfriend, the one before my wife, is also bi. I am very used to loving a bisexual woman and all that goes with it. The first two did not share though. 

We lived as a poly triad and it worked out very well for us. You may want to explore that option as we did or if you are more comfortable with monogamy, as many are, you can tell your wife to cut it out or you will divorce her. You can do like some guys do and look the other way but these days when women can marry women, your wife can end up like my ex fiancee who left her husband to marry her girlfriend. My wife went from fantasizing about women to it being a need in her life and so she worked it out beautifully for all involved. I did not have to do anything, my wife made it work for us.


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## ShatteredKat

In one of your Posts:

Yes it was a full blown affair. I thought I had a chance at reconciliation but everyone here is telling me it's not a good idea almost. I will make my decision as time goes on, maybe meet with an attorney to discuss my options beforehand and monitor my wife's behavior. She said "she will do anything and is absolutely disgusted by what I've done to you and our family" "I will do WHATEVER it takes." She said that all today and poured her heart out to me. I still don't know what to do.


Later:

Well it was an interesting night. Our youngest daughter had an event that my wife and children attended. I put a smile on for the kids but it was surprising easy because our youngest always puts a smile on my face. I cried at the thought of not being able to see her or our other children everyday. Guys I don't think I can do it. How can I not see my children everyday? This is so mentally draining. Our two older ones are teenagers but the youngest is so close to me and me and her do so much together. I feel so sick thinking about missing her life.


from one who has been around the block a few times

Don't "Stay for the Children" - the household atmosphere will warp their values - teaching them subliminally that it is ok to cheat.
They may grow up strong but the seed is there. Better to be happy and find an honest partner to show them what a healty relationship looks llike. (my experience - I grew up in such a poisonous house)


for you - 

You MUST wade through all the thoughts, mind movies, questions, and events of the past that occurred both before and during the affair.
IC can provide some help with that. 

You have a memory that is sharp and painful - at times you can hardly breath yes? - the pain will fade with time, the memory is yours for life.
You have to process everything about it and work on processing every bit of information about the affiair in order to "file it into permanent storage." Unanswered questions will haunt you until you die or they are answered. Answers will hurt for sure - but you must endure for the way to peace is THROUGH the pain. Not around it or ignoring the facts. Screw up your courage and get your answers.

You wife is broken - she chose to inflict this pain on you and your children. SHE need to get herself sorted out - if possible.
She may be broken at the DNA level, a perpetual inclination to wander. IC will have to be pursued and that question resolved.
If she is really capable of changing her moral character? Something you really don't want to deal with the rest of your life is 
wondering if she is gearing up another tryst. Being a policeman looking after your wife. Nah - don't even think about it.
It will slowly kill you.

This is your real problem going forward. Keeping the marriage with an unsafe partner is a wreck looking for a time and place to happen.

Read all you can about forgiveness - yes you need to forgive her. That doesn't mean forget! Forgiveness is for you. Once you have forgiven, the thoughts of a RA will become repugnant, Wanting her to suffer will cease. YOu hate for the pain will diminish and become much easier to deal with each day as the reality of what you have endured pops into your head.

Warning - do not consider reconciliation until she shows remorse! Remorse for the hurt she has caused the children - fine. I mean remorse
for the hurt she has/is causing you. A show of empathy. 

On a darker note - get the divorce papers filed - you can always halt - but "what if" - If $$ is an issue - most states/counties have the forms online and you can filll out and submit with a minimal fee. If needed get a lawyer later.

I am pro-get out of infidelity but only fight the path to reconciliation when both are doing all the work necessary.

Divorce is easy. Reconciliation is way harder. 

Wishing you the best - and take your time, go slowly on whatever fork you path takes and know it is not a lack of courage to backtrack and take a different path. Any path you end up will be a lot of mental work. and anguish

I would see if maybe the children need some counseling help too.


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## sokillme

Graywolf2 said:


> Even the best of things can have a downside. Because of the above and the fact that you’re a nice stable family guy your wife felt more secure to have an affair. She didn’t expect to be caught but if she was you would never leave her. She could say all the right things and everything would just go back to the way it was before.
> 
> I read about a guy that also had a great marriage. Like yours it was the envy of all their friends. In fact he and his wife were planning a world cruise to celebrate their 25th anniversary. Then he found out that his wife was having a torrid affair. She said she was so sorry and expected things to just go back to the way they were. She couldn’t believe it when her husband cancelled the cruise and lost a substantial deposit. Sex wasn’t a big deal to her. Her marriage was so perfect that she couldn’t imagine her husband ending it over something so trivial.
> 
> What I will never understand is how she was sincerely shocked when her husband cancelled the cruise. She knew he would be upset but why cancel a cruise that they had been looking forward to for so long? She just didn't get it. In fact his cancelation of the cruise was the first indication (for her) that the marriage was in trouble.


Reading SI I see.  Personally I think that wasn't her first rodeo. Not the way she did it. Nah she just got caught that time. Wish I could post on there to warn him.


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## sokillme

cam42 said:


> Are wayward spouses like really in an alternate universe?


They are an alternate type of person.


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## straightshooter

Cam,

Greywold and others have brought up some valid points for you to understand. Remember, men and womens' brains function differently, at least that is what probably 90% of the experts say.
We all know that the overwhelming percentage of men will make the statement that infidelity is a certain deal breaker, but we all know ( including your wife) that quite frankly most men DO NOT leave, at least immediately. I read recently that 75% of marriages reconcile after infidelity. That is bull ****, because that statistic has to take into consideration that if two people are still living under the same roof they are "reconciled". Anyone reading this forum or SI or probably any other forum knows that is not truly the case.

Women today are bombarded in everything they read ( just look at the front page of Cosmo and other women's magazines in the supermarket), and all the TV shows that cater to women , at how exciting and fun and glamorous affairs can be, and how they can "help" your marriage. 

If you read the books "Not Just Friends", and "His Needs, Her Needs", it will verify that since your wife obvioujsly did not intend to leave you, in her mind it was just sex because she did not "love" him. If you read the infamous Space Ghost thread on SI, his wife actually told Space Ghost that it was just fun and she actually did not think it was that bad because she never told OM she l,over him.

And if your wife's 10 best girlfriends had know about her affair, you can take it to the bank that half of them would have been pining for the "juicy details", another few would have told her to be careful but happy, and probably less than two would have "kicked her ass" verbally. And all of them probably would tell her, "he'll get over it" for the kids and family.

Be careful buddy. You are not out of the woods


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## cam42

I am going to file this week. I'm still on limbo in what I want but I now know that she needs to see that her actions have consequences. For the first time ever I'm not excited for the super bowl, I would rather have a faithful wife. She is basically taking no for an answer on why she wants to come home, saying she misses us. I was invited to a super bowl party, don't think I am going though. Our daughters have said they want to watch it with me, I don't want to force them to hang out with their old man. I wish my wife would just admit that she doesn't love me anymore so I can finally start climbing out of this darkness. She said "I know that would make it easier but I refuse to say something I don't mean." 

How am I supposed to act when she gets back here? I am expecting her to not give me my space judging by the amount she has texted me. I've been short with messages and it's very hard to go nc with her. She texted me saying I love you last night and I stupidly said it back. She then proceeded to ask if we can reconcile yet and she misses me. I said I need more time, this upset her I also said I missed her. NC is so hard, I can't tell if she actually misses me and loves me or is just manipulating me. I keep messing up on some things and I need to stop.


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## straightshooter

cam42 said:


> I am going to file this week. I'm still on limbo in what I want but I now know that she needs to see that her actions have consequences. For the first time ever I'm not excited for the super bowl, I would rather have a faithful wife. She is basically taking no for an answer on why she wants to come home, saying she misses us. I was invited to a super bowl party, don't think I am going though. Our daughters have said they want to watch it with me, I don't want to force them to hang out with their old man. I wish my wife would just admit that she doesn't love me anymore so I can finally start climbing out of this darkness. She said "I know that would make it easier but I refuse to say something I don't mean."
> 
> *How am I supposed to act when she gets back here? I am expecting her to not give me my space judging by the amount she has texted me. I've been short with messages and it's very hard to go nc with her. She texted me saying I love you last night and I stupidly said it back. She then proceeded to ask if we can reconcile yet and she misses me. I said I need more time, this upset her I also said I missed her. NC is so hard, I can't tell if she actually misses me and loves me or is just manipulating me. I keep messing up on some things and I need to stop.*


*
*

Cam,

lets forget the Super Bowl. You have bigger things to deal with. There will be a Super Bowl next year also.

Ok, it appears she has decided you cannot keep her out of the house and she is coming home. Stop paying any attention to ANYTHING she says because right now she has no boyfriend and its you or being alone and she is going to say ANYTHING that is in HER interest. That is par for the course. She probably does love you, and probably had no thought about leaving you, but as I said women actually believe that they can love their husband and still have a boyfriend. i won't bore you with my story but I know all about that first hand. Cam, remember, to your wife, she will tell you it was just excitement and just sex. But the lying and deceit after getting caught does in more cases more damage than the sex.

As far as her being upset, let me ask you. Were you upset when you found out the truth??? my guess is the answer to that was yes. Did she care that you would be upset enough to stop having sex with her boyfriend??? The answer to that one is NO. So her being upset at anything is not important at this time.

Cam, make NO COMMITMENTS, MAKE NO PROMISES TO HER, AND DO NOT CONTINUE TO TELL HER HOW MUCH YOU LOVE HER. You might ask her what SHE intends on doing to carry the heavy weight. my wife actually on her own researched and scheduled polygraph tests without me getting to the point of demanding it. Lets she what she does before you demand anything.

It's her turn to be in limbo. it's called a consequence of having sex with men other than your husband. Stop treating her like a little snowflake. 

And lastly please remember she was perfectly content to do what she was doing. most in first and only affairs are afraid to leave the hotel room. You will never get over this until you believe and can verify the truth. File the papers, and then calmly without warning or anger, tell her she now has X amount of time to give you every little detail, and that any more undisclosed information with put the nail in the coffin. but be prepared to back that up or do not say it.


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## ABHale

This is not remorse. She is pissed because you are not pleading with her to come home like a good boy. 

Sounds like she has read somewhere that you should be greatful she wants to stay and that this was going to make the marriage stronger. 

She did this knowing what she was up to and how you were to act when she was discovered. You are not following the script she has read.

Enjoy the game with your daughter's, I will with my three. Focus everything on them. If you can move into a spare room do so and don't hide it. Use your time with your girls to move forward.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

AB is spot on. Cam in my opinion from your posts you are losing your leverage. You are in control as she is out of the house. Maintain this control. Keep her out of the house if you can. You MUST have your space from her. My concern is as others have posted is she lost POSOM and she is fearful of being alone. By keeping her out of the home, she is suffering the consequences. 

Yes it is tough on you. But you have to dig down deep inside yourself and find what I refer to is "the determination switch". Visualize this switch a in your mind turn it on to keep you focused on your objective. By all means have her served, if possible at work. If there is one thing I would do over is have my wife served. I just had my lawyer draw up all of the paperwork and I signed it and let her know all that was missing was her signature. I was fortunate to have another place to hang out away from the home. 

"Shock and awe" is what you really need in this situation. Also, by having her served at work, potential for maximum embarrassment;hence, consequences. I wish you the best.


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## ABHale

Cam you will get your feet under you again. Stop worrying about the time frame. Its ok that she knows you still love and miss her. It will make it hit all the harder when you file. Everyone is different Cam and we do the things we need to do in our own time. This is not a failure on your part. She is has no clue how she has hurt you.

On the 180, take it day by day. Add another part as you can until it is in place. 

If you want the marriage to survive you need to expose to everyone. If you don't it will look like your wife is doing everything she can to fix what ever the problem was and that your being an azz. Which means she is still in control. You have to take control back at one point or you will never save the marriage. It has to be on your terms and not hers. 

Exposing will also give you the answer you need, does she loves you or not. Her actions afterwards is your answer.


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## NoChoice

cam42 said:


> I am going to file this week. I'm still on limbo in what I want but I now know that she needs to see that her actions have consequences. For the first time ever I'm not excited for the super bowl, I would rather have a faithful wife. She is basically taking no for an answer on why she wants to come home, saying she misses us. I was invited to a super bowl party, don't think I am going though. Our daughters have said they want to watch it with me, I don't want to force them to hang out with their old man. I wish my wife would just admit that she doesn't love me anymore so I can finally start climbing out of this darkness. She said "I know that would make it easier but I refuse to say something I don't mean."
> 
> How am I supposed to act when she gets back here? I am expecting her to not give me my space judging by the amount she has texted me. I've been short with messages and it's very hard to go nc with her. She texted me saying I love you last night and I stupidly said it back. She then proceeded to ask if we can reconcile yet and she misses me. I said I need more time, this upset her I also said I missed her. NC is so hard, I can't tell if she actually misses me and loves me or is just manipulating me. I keep messing up on some things and I need to stop.


OP,
Time will reveal how intent she is on fighting and how dedicated she is to saving the M. Time is playing two roles presently, your best friend and your worst enemy. Be steadfast and let her fight if she is so inclined. If she is severely motivated then she may prevail. I am fond of a quote I once read which is "if a person wants to do something badly enough, they will find a way, if not, they will find an excuse".


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## ABHale

Cam I know you don't see it. But there is a light at the end of this tunnel. You will get there someday. Use the love for your kids to help you along the way.


----------



## drifting on

Cam42

You need to rock this woman's world harshly. By that I mean you need to file, when she gets home tell her, thank you for understanding I need space. Then walk away. After several hours tell her you need to talk. Be sincere, tell her she is not one bit remorseful for her actions. This was shown when she got angry. Tell her that's one step closer to deciding divorce. Tell her she must enter IC she had two days to get an appointment and four days to be on the couch. Do not take any other excuse, if the marriage means that much to her she will get this done, my wife did. 

Next kick her out of the bedroom, if you haven't already done this make her move her own things. She can sleep anywhere but in your bedroom. If she doesn't like it then tell her to call OM to come get her. This is really a good way to shock them into reality. It's not mean in any way, what was mean was her affair. Consequences suck as I've said before, but when they display anger at you then you need to respond harshly. Forget about what she says, she didn't consult you about her affair so you will act in the manner that best suits you. After all, she did that for herself didn't she? 

Tell her that every action she shows from now until you decide, is measured carefully. One wrong action wipes away three good actions. It's just like when you are at work. You may receive three atta boys but one oh shlt wipes out your atta boys. Tell her to choose her words wisely, after all they are only words, and that you will trust after verification of her words. This shocks them even more that you can't believe what they say, and it's a continual slap at them. If she says it's a nice sunny day, you open the front door and say, you're right, the sun is shining. Drive this point home hard. 

I suggest that you wait a couple of months before beginning MC. The reason is for you to be in IC getting yourself stronger. The marriage is placed in a state of hold, you function to keep your kids on the right path. Set aside two nights a week to talk of the affair. Set this for forty five minutes, or until one person becomes agitated. Stopping when one becomes agitated is crucial, this is when the communication will break down and words said that can't be taken back. You come back to this the next time you have your pre scheduled talk. 

Best of luck, and if you need you may pm me at any time.


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## barbados

cam42 said:


> I am going to file this week. I'm still on limbo in what I want but I now know that she needs to see that her actions have consequences. For the first time ever I'm not excited for the super bowl, I would rather have a faithful wife. She is basically taking no for an answer on why she wants to come home, saying she misses us. I was invited to a super bowl party, don't think I am going though. Our daughters have said they want to watch it with me, I don't want to force them to hang out with their old man. I wish my wife would just admit that she doesn't love me anymore so I can finally start climbing out of this darkness. She said "I know that would make it easier but I refuse to say something I don't mean."
> 
> How am I supposed to act when she gets back here? I am expecting her to not give me my space judging by the amount she has texted me. I've been short with messages and it's very hard to go nc with her. She texted me saying I love you last night and I stupidly said it back. She then proceeded to ask if we can reconcile yet and she misses me. I said I need more time, this upset her I also said I missed her. NC is so hard, *I can't tell if she actually misses me and loves me or is just manipulating me*. I keep messing up on some things and I need to stop.


Its manipulation. Total manipulation. And she very good at it. That's why she was able to lead two separate lives with such ease. As I said in my previous post that is a SCARY trait for a person to have. That is what you would be R'ing with if you got that way. Remember that.


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## Marc878

cam42 said:


> I am going to file this week. I'm still on limbo in what I want but I now know that she needs to see that her actions have consequences. For the first time ever I'm not excited for the super bowl, I would rather have a faithful wife. She is basically taking no for an answer on why she wants to come home, saying she misses us. I was invited to a super bowl party, don't think I am going though. Our daughters have said they want to watch it with me, I don't want to force them to hang out with their old man. *I wish my wife would just admit that she doesn't love me anymore so I can finally start climbing out of this darkness. She said "I know that would make it easier but I refuse to say something I don't mean." *
> 
> How am I supposed to act when she gets back here? I am expecting her to not give me my space judging by the amount she has texted me. I've been short with messages and it's very hard to go nc with her. She texted me saying I love you last night and I stupidly said it back. She then proceeded to ask if we can reconcile yet and she misses me. I said I need more time, this upset her I also said I missed her. NC is so hard, I can't tell if she actually misses me and loves me or is just manipulating me. I keep messing up on some things and I need to stop.


Her actions have already told you what you need to know. Dating another man in public behind your back. What more proof could you possibly need? She isn't going to tell you the truth because she isn't going to give up her Plan B at this time. 

You're continued contact at this time says "no matter what you do to me I'm still here for you". You are letting your codependency and weakness define you. Living the life of her doormat will be hard. You'd better buck up and start thinking about what you want long term. Otherwise you'll be living your life on her terms.


----------



## Marc878

This may be what you need 

Read up its short
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LE..._Guy.pdf/RK=0/RS=GZ2sKQgwECKP25JoW2MeGR4x77M-


----------



## Taxman

Cam
She is freaking out because both plan A and plan B are gone. Now she stands a really good chance of not having one friend left in the world. She knows now that the divorce is going to out her to everyone. So she loses a husband, a lover, children, family and finally friends. World blown up, justice served.


----------



## straightshooter

cam42 said:


> I am going to file this week. I'm still on limbo in what I want but I now know that she needs to see that her actions have consequences. For the first time ever I'm not excited for the super bowl, I would rather have a faithful wife. She is basically taking no for an answer on why she wants to come home, saying she misses us. I was invited to a super bowl party, don't think I am going though. Our daughters have said they want to watch it with me, I don't want to force them to hang out with their old man. I wish my wife would just admit that she doesn't love me anymore so I can finally start climbing out of this darkness. She said "I know that would make it easier but I refuse to say something I don't mean."
> 
> How am I supposed to act when she gets back here? I am expecting her to not give me my space judging by the amount she has texted me. I've been short with messages and it's very hard to go nc with her. She texted me saying I love you last night and I stupidly said it back. She then proceeded to ask if we can reconcile yet and she misses me. I said I need more time, this upset her I also said I missed her. NC is so hard, I can't tell if she actually misses me and loves me or is just manipulating me. I keep messing up on some things and I need to stop.


Cam,

One more thing on this post of yours. You ask "How are you supposed to act???

My suggestion would be to tell her that you know you can't stop her but that you would rather she turn around and leave. 

If you show ANY SIGNS of anything more than not screaming, she will take that to mean she is on the way towards you backtracking. 

I may be in the minority here, but I feel now is the time for you to be the aggressor, not the guy on defense. You do not have to scream or yell but you are under no obligation to be NICE and PLEASANT. 

One thing is clears if you read what the overwhelming number of people responding to you are telling you. And we do not know each other from Adam. You do not have remorse. Plan A is gone because he wants his wife, and Plan B ( that be you) is not sure he wants to be Plan B. When a group of strangers, all who have gone through this infidelity experience, all tell you the same thing in different words, the group is rarely wrong.


----------



## lostmyreligion

cam42 said:


> I am going to file this week. I'm still on limbo in what I want but I now know that she needs to see that her actions have consequences.


It's normal and understandable to be in limbo. Her actions, past and ongoing, have put you there. Finding balance while bending over flat backwards and trying to move forward out from under her affair is a really tough and painful gig. 

Filing will stop the bar from lowering any further, put you one big step further out of that hellish state, and pull you nearly upright to better see what *you* want. 

But do it for yourself alone.

Filing because _"she needs to see that her actions have consequences"_ is still pandering to *her* needs.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Cam frankly I would tell her that I would say I don't know where they really love me whether you're just manipulating me and I'm going to file because I'm not going to contunue to feel like plan b.


----------



## cam42

To get a better picture of where were at, basically she said she is willing to do anything to fix our marriage, I was never plan b according to her. During our family therapy session she seemed to get it all out. She did a lot of the talking and I was just too upset to really say that much even though the therapist was encouraging me. The therapist said that people do have affairs and never plan on leaving their significant others. I don't think she would have ever left me, but I still do believe she would still be having an affair if it didn't come to light. I told her I think I needed more time away from her, she doesn't understand how were supposed to fix our marriage if were living apart, she wants to be able to communicate. I admit I have been closed off and short with her, but she is the one who has had the affair. The wife told our kids that is the worst thing she's ever done and please to not ever follow in her footsteps. I have to prepare for a life without her if we don't stay together, hence why I have been not speaking to her much. She is already in individual counseling and would like to talk about her session with me afterwards. I'm not trying to paint myself as the victim, I admit this past week I haven't been really able to give her a straight answer. I could tell she's hurt but so am I, I was the one that was betrayed deceived and lied to for six months straight. Basically I asked why she was having the affair in her words "The physical and emotional thrill she was getting from OM made her feel desired and wanted, it was never about him being better or that she did not love me and she's disgusted and ashamed for what she did". 

She's coming home today with no question it seems like, already have a text from her saying she will be home in a few hours and would really like to talk. I said she doesn't have to come back home and maybe we can just meet somewhere if she really wants to talk with no avail. I have been reading on no more mr nice guy and now know what mentality I have to have and how I should handle this. I am not going to rug sweep what she has done to our family and I. Is it common for WW to constantly want to talk about what they've done?


----------



## TDSC60

Cam did you ever get the "I love you but am not in love with you" speech or any variation? 

You should tell her that you feel that if she was in love with you she never could have done what she did because she had to know how it would destroy you if you found out. Her feelings for OM were stronger than her feelings for you. Her feelings for other man were strong enough to cause her to lie to you, keep you in the dark, and totally betray her marriage vows. She left the marriage in shambles for OM and you did not even have a clue because you never imagined she COULD do that.

Tell her that you love the wife you thought you had, but she has proven to you that she is no longer that person. You need time to see how you feel about the person she is now.


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## rzmpf

cam42 said:


> I was never plan b according to her.


Tradionally plan A means being with the AP and when they get ditched they come back so in that sense it is most likely true. She never planned to be with OM, it was just for "fun". Her plan was to keep you in the dark and have the thrill of an affair. So in her plan she always stayed with you, that's also why she has a hard time understanding why you are still on the fence when in her mind you should be thankful that she never wanted to leave you.



cam42 said:


> Is it common for WW to constantly want to talk about what they've done?


Pity party. Open self-deprecation to induce sympathy and pity in the BS, kids and whoever else so it's harder for you to leave her because everyone saw how hard she was with herself. Same for pressing for communication to save the M when you do not even know if you want to save the M. Does not have to be an evil plot, can also just be a coping mechanism.

But as I understand it, she is only saying, that she wants to do anything to make the M work. 

It's not about you being happy or you coming to a decision on how you want to proceed. She wants to remain married and that's what she is fighting for. For herself. Just as the A was all about her.


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## TDSC60

Unfortunately you were/are the very definition of Plan B. The unknowing husband who thought he had a loving faithful wife who supported her and loved her and maintained a home and took care of the kids while she went after her "physical and emotional thrills" with OM.

The marriage she wants to "fix" now that she can no longer get those things from OM. Definitely Plan B.

The problem with Plan B is that 3-4 years down the road another OM may enter the picture and she will remember how former OM made her feel and she could do it again knowing that good old Plan B Cam will still be there if she get caught yet again.

You are the one who has to decide if YOU want to fix the marriage - not her.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

TDSC60 said:


> Cam did you ever get the "I love you but am not in love with you" speech or any variation?
> 
> You should tell her that you feel that if she was in love with you she never could have done what she did because she had to know how it would destroy you if you found out. Her feelings for OM were stronger than her feelings for you. Her feelings for other man were strong enough to cause her to lie to you, keep you in the dark, and totally betray her marriage vows. She left the marriage in shambles for OM and you did not even have a clue because you never imagined she COULD do that.
> 
> Tell her that you love the wife you thought you had, but she has proven to you that she is no longer that person. You need time to see how you feel about the person she is now.



That is one of the best pieces of advice I have read on here Cam.


----------



## Marc878

cam42 said:


> To get a better picture of where were at, basically she said she is willing to do anything to fix our marriage, I was never plan b according to her.
> 
> Cheaters lie a lot
> 
> During our family therapy session she seemed to get it all out. She did a lot of the talking and I was just too upset to really say that much even though the therapist was encouraging me. *The therapist said that people do have affairs and never plan on leaving their significant others.*
> 
> Oh, ok I gues this make you feel so much better now???? What?
> 
> I don't think she would have ever left me, but I still do believe she would still be having an affair if it didn't come to light. I told her I think I needed more time away from her, she doesn't understand how were supposed to fix our marriage if were living apart, she wants to be able to communicate. I admit I have been closed off and short with her, but she is the one who has had the affair. The wife told our kids that is the worst thing she's ever done and please to not ever follow in her footsteps. I have to prepare for a life without her if we don't stay together, hence why I have been not speaking to her much. She is already in individual counseling and would like to talk about her session with me afterwards. I'm not trying to paint myself as the victim, I admit this past week I haven't been really able to give her a straight answer. I could tell she's hurt but so am I, I was the one that was betrayed deceived and lied to for six months straight. Basically I asked why she was having the affair in her words "The physical and emotional thrill she was getting from OM made her feel desired and wanted, it was never about him being better or that she did not love me and she's disgusted and ashamed for what she did".
> 
> Words don't mean much. Actions over a long period of time will tell you more
> 
> She's coming home today with no question it seems like, already have a text from her saying she will be home in a few hours and would really like to talk. I said she doesn't have to come back home and maybe we can just meet somewhere if she really wants to talk with no avail. I have been reading on no more mr nice guy and now know what mentality I have to have and how I should handle this. I am not going to rug sweep what she has done to our family and I. Is it common for WW to constantly want to talk about what they've done?


She needs to give you space and time to determine what you want. Jumping into R is not what you need at this time.


----------



## SunCMars

cam42 said:


> Is it common for WW to constantly want to talk about what they've done?


Yes, of course.

She wants to convince you that it was nothing but a thrill.

She wants to convince you that she does love you.

She wants to convince you she is worth saving...from her fall from grace.

She wants to "try" to unload her guilt. By openly talking about it. She better not park that guilt in your lap.

She wants this to "go away". To put this in the past. To rug sweep it...as much as is possible.

She wants to continue on as before. As her being the "Lady" of the house. The wife of a great husband.

She wants to be able to face her children, her family and in-laws. If YOU take her back, then her sin must be "not so bad". Not if you have washed her, ever so carefully and lovingly.

She wants you to be her Salvation. She knows their is no other Entity that can do this [for her] 

She wants you to fill those furry slippers. Only you can make her whole again. Standing tall in her old warm bedroom slippers, again. 

She wants you to forget about that singular and personal warm slipper that she shared with OM. YOUR beloved slipper.

She wants her comfortable life back. The same comfortable life that she selfishly downplayed. She so selfishly went down and played with the OM beast.

She wants to take no more risks. She gambled on a Folly and found a Stallion to titillate her gambling instincts. She opened her blouse, he ran off with her lusty heart. She willingly followed. Now, she lays naked in that mired muddy field... naked to the world. She has no clothes, no true friend, save POSOM. It is cold out there. So cold. No one will offer their jacket. No jacket to cover her bare sins.

*She cannot make her wants into reality, unless she has your ear, your lips, her lips to kiss, to lull you into forgiving her. She wants you "Stand up" for her again..* She wants to re-program you. To restore the old you, re-instill your love and need for her, to re-erect you Cam...into that form. She wants to convince you [again] that you are her man, the same man that she vowed "To have and to Hold". She will fervently do the holding, the caressing, the soothing. Hysterical will she be. By working feverishly on your fleshly manhood, she will sooth your mental doubts. Her fog will drift into your mind.

Such is the power of women over men.

Oh, Helen, let Troy go. Let Cam start anew.


----------



## straightshooter

*"The physical and emotional thrill she was getting from OM made her feel desired and wanted, it was never about him being better or that she did not love me and she's disgusted and ashamed for what she did". *

OK, Cam. That quote is not unusual and means NOTHING. Thats the first honest thing she has said. At least you did not get the "I hated the sex bull ****".

How come she was not disgusted with herself after being caught UNTIL OM told her it was over??? Next comes the standard excuse, *"I did not want to tell you the truth because I did not want to hurt you"*. Protecting herself. NOT REMORSE.

You said it yourself. You do not believe she wanted to leave you but you also do not believe she would have stopped ( correct on that one). If you do not file, she has now bought herself some more time to not show you ACTIONS( and not having sex with you), instead of words. next comes lets stall some more by therapy, etc, where more excuses will be brought through searching for the elusive "why".

What happens next time she needs excitement and thrill. You problem remains the same
(1) How do you verify they are not and have not still been communicating
(2) Does she have any electronic accounts or apps that you do not know about
(3) has she done this before since it was only sex and she still loved you but liked the excitement
(4) who else knew what she was doing ( co workers, girlfriends)

Only two ways to find out. Take her word for it or polygraph. Your call.

By filing all the pressure remains on her.

And do NOT SIT AND TALK WITH HER. yOU WERE NOT READY FOR HER TO COME BACK


----------



## TDSC60

Talking with her now will only confuse you. Remember - she lied to you during the entire affair. After you caught what you thought was an EA she continued to lie to you. All for selfish reasons she lied and disrespected you. What makes you think she is not lying now to get what she wants?

Again, it is up to you to decide what YOU want. 

Do not believe anything she says now. She is no longer the woman you married. She has proved that with her actions. She can not be trusted. She has proved that with her lies.

Her actions should be given more weight in your decision than anything she has said. 

Oh- remember that her trying to seduce you is another common tactic among WWs who get caught. If they can just get to you sexually they think that somehow proves that they love you. (So she must have been or still is in love with OM since he thrilled her so - right?)


----------



## TOMTEFAR

Graywolf2 said:


> I read about a guy that also had a great marriage. Like yours it was the envy of all their friends. In fact he and his wife were planning a world cruise to celebrate their 25th anniversary. Then he found out that his wife was having a torrid affair. She said she was so sorry and expected things to just go back to the way they were. She couldn’t believe it when her husband cancelled the cruise and lost a substantial deposit. Sex wasn’t a big deal to her. Her marriage was so perfect that she couldn’t imagine her husband ending it over something so trivial.
> 
> What I will never understand is how she was sincerely shocked when her husband cancelled the cruise. She knew he would be upset but why cancel a cruise that they had been looking forward to for so long? She just didn't get it. In fact his cancelation of the cruise was the first indication (for her) that the marriage was in trouble.


I would like to read that. Could you pm me a url or some hints for me to find it?


----------



## cam42

There was evidence of her feeling guilty about all of this in her convos, but she continued to be physical with him so I guess her getting sexual pleasure was more important than our lives together. I am sad, I should be happy that I have people around me on this forum and in my life helping me get through this. I am also sorry for those who have been cheated on by your partners, it's the worst pain I have ever felt. When she comes home I will most likely not be in the house, I will make myself busy. I have also read that WS attempting to seduce the BS is common, she is also doing this and took the STD test coming back negative that we will be able to be intimate now. I can't and I won't. I don't even have the desire to sleep with her or anybody else, I'm too upset. What happens when the next man she meets gives her the time of day?

Also during the session it was addressed that she felt more like roommates instead of lovers and felt we didn't connect as much so the OM filled that void for her. I never got the I need space or I'm not in love with you speech. I have a lawyer in mind and have already spoken to her it looks like she's one of the best in town but she's expensive, I need the strength to file please don't mess this one up(talking to myself). I need to get through this and stop being depressed for my own well being and my children. I fear that all the disgusting details of this ordeal will never leave my mind, the I love you's and all that world shattering information. I deserve to be happy with or without my wife, I will not make my decision yet but will monitor her behavior. Going to keep very low contact between us most likely.


----------



## gr8ful1

cam42 said:


> When she comes home I will most likely not be in the house, I will make myself busy. I have also read that WS attempting to seduce the BS is common, she is also doing this and took the STD test coming back negative that we will be able to be intimate now. I can't and I won't. I don't even have the desire to sleep with her or anybody else, I'm too upset. What happens when the next man she meets gives her the time of day?


Cam,

Now is the time where you MUST be strong. Fake it if you must. You're dying inside but you MUST insist she move all her things to another room, and better yet, sleep the couch. DO NOT CAVE ON THIS. And you know what's coming. She's likely going to pull every trick in the book to seduce you. DON'T FALL FOR IT. Also, begin the process of separating things out - possessions, bank accounts, everything. She needs to see this, and you need to have this for yourself, more importantly.

This is for YOUR benefit. And, just possibly, hers as well. You need to have a do-or-death survival mindset. Don't be rude, don't be mean (from the sound of it, you are "too nice" so I doubt that will be an issue), but remain STEADFAST and RESOLUTE. I'm pulling for you!!

YOU CAN DO THIS!!


----------



## TX-SC

SunCMars said:


> Yes, of course.
> 
> She wants to convince you that it was nothing but a thrill.
> 
> She wants to convince you that she does love you.
> 
> She wants to convince you she is worth saving...from her fall from grace.
> 
> She wants to "try" to unload her guilt. By openly talking about it. She better not park that guilt in your lap.
> 
> She wants this to "go away". To put this in the past. To rug sweep it...as much as is possible.
> 
> She wants to continue on as before. As her being the "Lady" of the house. The wife of a great husband.
> 
> She wants to be able to face her children, her family and in-laws. If YOU take her back, then her sin must be "not so bad". Not if you have washed her, ever so carefully and lovingly.
> 
> She wants you to be her Salvation. She knows their is no other Entity that can do this [for her]
> 
> She wants you to fill those furry slippers. Only you can make her whole again. Standing tall in her old warm bedroom slippers, again.
> 
> She wants you to forget about that singular and personal warm slipper that she shared with OM. YOUR beloved slipper.
> 
> She wants her comfortable life back. The same comfortable life that she selfishly downplayed. She so selfishly went down and played with the OM beast.
> 
> She wants to take no more risks. She gambled on a Folly and found a Stallion to titillate her gambling instincts. She opened her blouse, he ran off with her lusty heart. She willingly followed. Now, she lays naked in that mired muddy field... naked to the world. She has no clothes, no true friend, save POSOM. It is cold out there. So cold. No one will offer their jacket. No jacket to cover her bare sins.
> 
> *She cannot make her wants into reality, unless she has your ear, your lips, her lips to kiss, to lull you into forgiving her. She wants you "Stand up" for her again..* She wants to re-program you. To restore the old you, re-instill your love and need for her, to re-erect you Cam...into that form. She wants to convince you [again] that you are her man, the same man that she vowed "To have and to Hold". She will fervently do the holding, the caressing, the soothing. Hysterical will she be. By working feverishly on your fleshly manhood, she will sooth your mental doubts. Her fog will drift into your mind.
> 
> Such is the power of women over men.
> 
> Oh, Helen, let Troy go. Let Cam start anew.


This is a very good post. And, it's actually decipherable! 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


----------



## drifting on

Cam

If she does try to have sex with you say this, I'm sorry, I can't, you gave away the greatest part of being intimate away. The most special bond between us where we give each all of us, and you gave it away for a cheap thrill of excitement. How am I supposed to be intimate now? Why do you want to be intimate with me now? Regardless of the fact you were never going to leave me, you took and gave away that most sacred intimate bond that leaves me nothing.


----------



## sokillme

cam42 said:


> To get a better picture of where were at, basically she said she is willing to do anything to fix our marriage, I was never plan b according to her. During our family therapy session she seemed to get it all out. She did a lot of the talking and I was just too upset to really say that much even though the therapist was encouraging me. The therapist said that people do have affairs and never plan on leaving their significant others. I don't think she would have ever left me, but I still do believe she would still be having an affair if it didn't come to light. I told her I think I needed more time away from her, she doesn't understand how were supposed to fix our marriage if were living apart, she wants to be able to communicate. I admit I have been closed off and short with her, but she is the one who has had the affair. The wife told our kids that is the worst thing she's ever done and please to not ever follow in her footsteps. I have to prepare for a life without her if we don't stay together, hence why I have been not speaking to her much. She is already in individual counseling and would like to talk about her session with me afterwards. I'm not trying to paint myself as the victim, I admit this past week I haven't been really able to give her a straight answer. I could tell she's hurt but so am I, I was the one that was betrayed deceived and lied to for six months straight. Basically I asked why she was having the affair in her words "The physical and emotional thrill she was getting from OM made her feel desired and wanted, it was never about him being better or that she did not love me and she's disgusted and ashamed for what she did".
> 
> She's coming home today with no question it seems like, already have a text from her saying she will be home in a few hours and would really like to talk. I said she doesn't have to come back home and maybe we can just meet somewhere if she really wants to talk with no avail. I have been reading on no more mr nice guy and now know what mentality I have to have and how I should handle this. I am not going to rug sweep what she has done to our family and I. Is it common for WW to constantly want to talk about what they've done?


Dude, to say it in a not nice way, F her. You asked for space and she gave you a day (man didn't take long for her to fall back into her own patterns). She is already is back to doing what she wants, sorry but as a person your wife sucks. Let her know she already is failing, she doesn't get to control R if you are going to settle for that life. If I were you I would completely detach. I would divorce her and then give her a chance to date you and compete with all the other non cheaters out there. Plus the idea of her dating you will help you detach because you can hold out a little hope, probably by the time you are ready to date her you will have sufficiently detached and will see her for what she is and what she has done. But it will be easier now. That at least would put you in the power position. You owe her absolutely nothing. She dissolved the marriage agreement when she cheated. Separate and make the decision with your brain not your heart. Stop being her husband, she fired you. If she wants you back make her compete.


----------



## sokillme

rzmpf said:


> Tradionally plan A means being with the AP and when they get ditched they come back so in that sense it is most likely true.


I think the more important plan is she will always be plan B. No one in their right mind would go into a marriage and have their spouse cheat. Once they do, you never get the chance to have your plan A life with them. Nope always stuck with a plan B life, with a plan B person. 

Staying is settling.


----------



## TX-SC

Cam, you seem to be on the right track. You can certainly R with your wife if she puts in the effort, which she appears to be doing. But, you need to stay somewhat detached until you are sure of your plans. Sex would cloud your judgment, and she knows that. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## sokillme

TDSC60 said:


> The problem with Plan B is that 3-4 years down the road another OM may enter the picture and she will remember how former OM made her feel and she could do it again knowing that good old Plan B Cam will still be there if she get caught yet again.


The problem with being plan B is that you're plan B. How can anyone be happy with that?


----------



## sokillme

TOMTEFAR said:


> I would like to read that. Could you pm me a url or some hints for me to find it?


waitedwaytoolong on SI

It is absolutely one of the worst. He can't pull the trigger though, she probably knew this and used his nature against him.


----------



## dubsey

She'll blabber at you. If you want it to stop, start with the following:

"I'm still in love with who I THOUGHT my wife WAS. I'm still working on reconciling how I feel about who my wife ACTUALLY IS."


----------



## ABHale

What happens when the next man she meets gives her the time of day?


Ask her this first thing when you have your talk today. Let her answer then ask/say why should I believe you. Your actions shows that you would fall for him as well. End the conversation and leave and do your own thing like you said.


----------



## TDSC60

cam42 said:


> There was evidence of her feeling guilty about all of this in her convos, but she continued to be physical with him so I guess her getting sexual pleasure was more important than our lives together.


That is one of the hardest things that a Betrayed Husband needs to admit to themselves. That sex with OM was more important to her than her family, her husband and her marriage. Obviously she did not feel so guilty that she stopped the affair and confessed and begged you to forgive her. I think she got off on the deception and secrecy. That made it even more thrilling and exciting.

Now that you know this and have accepted it, do you really want to be married to the woman who could do this with a smile and a lie on her lips every time she went to meet him?

She also went so far as to say you were nothing more than a room mate so she had no choice but to seek attention and sex elsewhere (typical excuse of a WW). It would have been nice if she had told you this before she started f*cking the OM. Right?

And yes, having sex with the BH is just another tactic a cheating spouse has to try to recover all the things she did not even consider worthy of thinking about during the affair. She threw all that out like yesterdays garbage in favor of time with OM. Now she desperately wants Plan B back, but for selfish reasons, not because she is remorseful or feels your pain.

You have to decide what you want to do. I don't think you can do that with her talking to you. You need some time alone. There is no clock or count down on this. You decide when decide and not before. If she can't accept that, then show her the door and wish her a happy life.


----------



## stillthinking

Get ready. Here comes the love bombing. 

You are going to hear all sorts of great things. They will sound so good, so believeable.

I never stopped loving you. 
Was never going to leave. 
I love you (over and over). 
Lets have sex.

And my favorite, "I will spend the rest of my life making it up to you. I will show you how much you mean to me."

Its all bull****. It is her covering her ass. The hail mary of WW tactics.

She is a cheater. The lifeblood of a cheater is attention. Not love. Attention. She even admitted this by saying she loved the ATTENTION the OM gave her. So now she needs to get her fix. The OM is no longer an option. So it on to Plan B. She now looks to you to give her this attention. So of course she will want to talk all about what SHE did. How SHE is feeling. What SHE was thinking. What SHE will do do save the marriage. What SHE wants.

Notice what's not mentioned. YOU. She does not care what YOU want or need (like space) because it is not about YOU. It is all about HER.

Do not give into this. It is the siren song, looking to pull your ship into the rocks. Stay strong. You need to understand that everytime she wants to "talk," it is a trap. One she is hoping you walk into. It is a tiger gettting ready to pounce on its prey. In this case the prey is your resolve. If she gets you to back track she wins. And it's another notch in her belt. First notch was banging another guy. Second notch is gettting you to stay after finding out. 

File for D. 
Have her served.
Keep conversations limited to the kids and normal day to day issues. We need milk and eggs...that kind of thing.
Do not discuss the marriage or relationship.
Do not give her the attention she so dearly needs.

These actions will put and keep you in control. Cheaters hate not being in control. So she might start to get a little crazy. Might want to get a VAR and keep it on you when dealing with her. You do not want any false DV charges.

Lots of good posts on here the lst couple of days. Read them over and ever. Do not get sucked into her retarded spin cycle.


----------



## sokillme

TDSC60 said:


> That is one of the hardest things that a Betrayed Husband needs to admit to themselves. That sex with OM was more important to her than her family, her husband and her marriage. Obviously she did not feel so guilty that she stopped the affair and confessed and begged you to forgive her. I think she got off on the deception and secrecy. That made it even more thrilling and exciting.
> 
> Now that you know this and have accepted it, do you really want to be married to the woman who could do this with a smile and a lie on her lips every time she went to meet him?


While you are thinking this remember there are great women out there who would not do this. You are a faithful man, you will be wanted. Sadly this is the person she has become. People grow as they age she grew into an entitled a-hole.


----------



## Graywolf2

cam42 said:


> The therapist said that people do have affairs and never plan on leaving their significant others. I don't think she would have ever left me, but I still do believe she would still be having an affair if it didn't come to light.


Of course she was never going to leave you. She had a division of labor going on. She had you for stability, security and boring day to day stuff and the OM for fun. She wanted both of you for what each of you provided. The OM couldn’t or wouldn’t provide what you did.

It always amazes me when a WS gets credit for never intending to leave their BS. That’s like your gardener giving you extra points because you never intended for them to stop mowing your lawn.


----------



## Graywolf2

Your wife may love you but it’s like a family member, a father or brother. Think of her as your teenage daughter living in your house that’s dating a boy that you don’t approve of. She has a long history with you and you provide safety and security. She wants to live in your house and sneak off to see the boy for fun. 

She will do that as long as she can get away with it. She will tell daddy whatever he wants to hear to keep it going. She's counting on the fact that daddy loves her and will never kick her out of the house.

The only way she’s going to stop seeing the boy (unless the boy dumps her) is if she realized that daddy will in fact kick her out of the house. The boy isn’t worth losing her room for. So now she loves daddy so much and always did. She knows how to play daddy. She’s been doing it for years.

She must have been crazy to sneak out of her window to see the boy. She will do and say whatever she needs to in order to keep her room.

The reason to file for divorce is to drive home the point that she's wrong about daddy. There are conditions where daddy can and will kick her out of the house.


----------



## sokillme

Graywolf2 said:


> Your wife may love you but it’s like a family member, a father or brother. Think of her as your teenage daughter living in your house that’s dating a boy that you don’t approve of. She has a long history with you and you provide safety and security. She wants to live in your house and sneak off to see the boy for fun.
> 
> She will do that as long as she can get away with it. She will tell daddy whatever he wants to hear to keep it going. Daddy loves her and will never kick her out of the house.
> The only way she’s going to stop seeing the boy (unless the boy dumps her) is if she realized that daddy will in fact kick her out of the house. The boy isn’t worth losing her room for. So now she loves daddy so much and always did. She knows how to play daddy. She’s been doing it for years.
> 
> She must have been crazy to sneak out of her window to see the boy. She will do and say whatever she needs to in order to keep her room.
> 
> The reason to file for divorce is to drive home the point that she's wrong about daddy. There are conditions where daddy can and will kick her out of the house.



This is so true, once WW start to cheat they effectively turn their husbands into parents. The pattern is there over and over. I think a lot of that has to do with their dysfunction. Entitlement, and lack of maturity. Very much behaving like children.

Only think I will say is the last sentence just proves it's wrong to stay, why would you want to have a wife who you have to treat like a child. Just move on find an adult.


----------



## Malaise

drifting on said:


> Cam
> 
> If she does try to have sex with you say this, I'm sorry, I can't, you gave away the greatest part of being intimate away. The most special bond between us where we give each all of us, and you gave it away for a cheap thrill of excitement. How am I supposed to be intimate now? Why do you want to be intimate with me now? Regardless of the fact you were never going to leave me, you took and gave away that most sacred intimate bond that leaves me nothing.


Awesome post.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

cam42 said:


> Also during the session it was addressed that she felt more like roommates instead of lovers and felt we didn't connect as much so the OM filled that void for her. I never got the I need space or I'm not in love with you speech.


Individuals VERY OFTEN don't come right and say what is bothering them in a relationship. This is nothing hard to explain, however, individuals don't always like the reason. Typically, a spouse stops speaking up because they are not "heard", not validated, or they are attacked for what was said. This creates an environment that destroys trust and intimacy. Otherwise, a spouse may fear coming forth with their concerns with only the anticipation of a negative reception based upon their past relationships. It is my job to try to get (and keep) my partner open and communicative.



> I have a lawyer in mind and have already spoken to her it looks like she's one of the best in town but she's expensive, I need the strength to file please don't mess this one up(talking to myself). I need to get through this and stop being depressed for my own well being and my children. I fear that all the disgusting details of this ordeal will never leave my mind, the I love you's and all that world shattering information. I deserve to be happy with or without my wife, I will not make my decision yet but will monitor her behavior. Going to keep very low contact between us most likely.


You CAN conquer the hurt that you feel. You WILL conquer it if you put in the appropriate work to do so.


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## curious234

being intimate is not a problem(specially for male). there are many stories where they are intimate and did not reconcile and continue to be intimate after divorce. I think she is doing all she can do to reconcile. agreeing to confess in front of her children is a proof towards that


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## sokillme

Part of decided to R is also who you are R with. What this person is now that you are deciding to take them back. She could do everything right and she will never be the women you thought you had when you married. You have to be willing to accept that. If you try to think of her the old way the dissonance will drive you crazy. You can see this over and over from posts in R. Better to just accept that she is capable of such terrible things.


----------



## bigfoot

I am sorry that this has happened to you. Here is the thing that I have seen for guys in your position. It is gender neutral actually.

1. You love your wife, so getting hit with this is like totally blindsiding. You are asked to make a life changing decision because someone else made a life changing action and now you feel compelled to choose now.

2. Choosing is hard because you never thought that you would have to make this choice, at this time, about this person, with this much at stake.

3. You wrestle with yourself. You love her and hate what she did. the person you thought that you knew would not do this, but she did, and she is the person that you thought that you knew.

4. You have to move forward with cutting her off. You have to work on detaching. treat it like loving her is like loving someone else's wife. You do what you have to do to kill those feelings or at least control them. But there is more.

5. You have to let her know that you can let her go. Not just words. She has to feel it. she has to be able to look into your eyes, the windows to your soul, and know that you are serious. 

6. You have to know that you can do it. That you can actually pull the trigger. That you can actually not love her. That you can leave her. You have to be able to look yourself in the eye now and in the future and know that you were committed to ending it with her, walking away, and starting a new life. Why? Because if you decide to R, you won't regret your choice. Your heart won't condemn you. You won't feel like you capitulated to fear, or uncertainty or anything else. If you R it will be because you made a choice to return and she knows it and you know it. There is nothing worse than eating the sh*t sandwich that she served you with her infidelity and then you feeling like you thanked her for it. 

7. You have to make a choice from a position of power. If you D, you can walk off hurt but not pitiful. If you R, you can do it in confidence because you know, she knows, and anyone who's opinion you happen to care about knows that it was your decision and not just your default.

8. I don't know why you would R, but she is your wife and not mine. I do know that the people who R and seem broken are the one's who did it out of fear, or uncertainty, or any position of weakness. Those who did so out of strength, seem happier. Of course, they all seem like they got something that worth far less than the price that they paid. The happiest that I know, divorced. Every single one. 

Either way decide in strength and live your life to the fullest.


----------



## Doyle

Hey Cam how's it going.


----------



## Evinrude58

Put in the work with someone that you at least may not be a characterless attention *****.

Think you'll ever trust her again?
6montgs without end until you caught her.
You know in your heart that the next handsome man that gives her attention, she will end up in bed with.
If you can tell yourself honestly that you don't believe that, consider reconciling.

But I wouldn't put in the work. She'd put in the work.

Yes, sex will totally screw up your head. If you have sex with her, you might as well plan on reconciling. I don't think she's able to reconcile. Once you were lowered to roommate status...
You never get back to romantic partner status. Just how their minds work.

Good luck


----------



## cam42

As much as I love my wife I have filed for divorce today. She is going to be served with papers soon and I do think she will be shocked. I unfortunately was using alcohol to attempt to numb the pain, but I can't do that forever. It was by far the hardest thing I've ever done. She is back at the house and I basically ignore her 24/7 I say hi and that's about it. so our teenage girls while our youngest is so torn up over this. Nobody is mean to her, no one just wants to speak to her. I'm starting to see not only did my wife hurt me, she hurt our children to the point where they will all probably need professional help. Although she has been acting as if she wants nothing more than to reconcile, I don't know if I can. I will use the divorce process to judge how she behaves and then make a decision.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Cam,

Stay away from alcohol. Go to your doctor and get sleep meds and if necessary anti-depressants. Sleep is a must !! So is cardio type exercise. Your body is flooded with stress hormones demanding fight or flight. Combine both and you will make your and your children's life a living hell. Stay focused on making sure your childen's routine is maintain.


----------



## SunCMars

cam42 said:


> As much as I love my wife I have filed for divorce today. She is going to be served with papers soon and I do think she will be shocked. I unfortunately was using alcohol to attempt to numb the pain, but I can't do that forever. It was by far the hardest thing I've ever done. She is back at the house and I basically ignore her 24/7 I say hi and that's about it. so our teenage girls while our youngest is so torn up over this. Nobody is mean to her, no one just wants to speak to her. I'm starting to see not only did my wife hurt me, she hurt our children to the point where they will all probably need professional help. Although she has been acting as if she wants nothing more than to reconcile, I don't know if I can. I will use the divorce process to judge how she behaves and then make a decision.


God Bless you. I know this hurts.


----------



## sokillme

cam42 said:


> As much as I love my wife I have filed for divorce today. She is going to be served with papers soon and I do think she will be shocked. I unfortunately was using alcohol to attempt to numb the pain, but I can't do that forever. It was by far the hardest thing I've ever done. She is back at the house and I basically ignore her 24/7 I say hi and that's about it. so our teenage girls while our youngest is so torn up over this. Nobody is mean to her, no one just wants to speak to her. I'm starting to see not only did my wife hurt me, she hurt our children to the point where they will all probably need professional help. Although she has been acting as if she wants nothing more than to reconcile, I don't know if I can. I will use the divorce process to judge how she behaves and then make a decision.


OP, when my father cheated on my mother and they divorced when I was 7 for the next few years I struggled in school and socially. This was right when the divorce rate in the US skyrocketed. I was one of the first kids but within a few years half the kids in class had the same situation. I remember divorce was seen a kind of shameful but that all changed in about a year or two. 

Anyway It had a deep profound affect on me for about 4 years, I also think my Mother was not in any shape to help me then. She would have been that way if they stayed together or not. She spent a lot of time on the phone crying to her girlfriend. It was a very sad time. Unfortunately because this was before it was common there were no resources for this. I spent a lot of time dealing with this stuff on my own. That was hard. 

Now the good news, I recovered. I have had a good productive life, married 13 years, my Mother has recovered and loves her life, they can even be at social events together. I have a good relationship with both my parents. So my advice is, this will be as hard for them as it is for you. Unfortunately this is what your wife did to them. If she has any decency this will haunt her. They will survive it though, hopefully they will get the right lesson. I know my father loves me but only to a point. He is the center of his own universe, that was a hard thing to accept but it was a valuable lesson. I will never cheat on anyone, one of the reasons is because of all the damage it did. It is plain as day to me. It's your job now to reinforce that lesson to them. 

Anyway counseling and just actively loving you children will help. When they talk about being sad, you should tell them how sad you are but also how you can't live with someone who would treat you this way. How some decisions in life have permanent consequences. How when people entrust you with their heart, you have a great responsibility to honor that. Those are the lessons I got, and the 4 years of deep pain were absoultly worth it.

One more thing, I say divorce her and make her compete. Nothing says wanting a marriage more then truly starting from scratch. Besides that it will give you some agency over your own life and get you confidence back up.


----------



## GusPolinski

Sorry man.


----------



## Marc878

It doesn't seem like it now but you'll be fine. The path you've chosen will get you out of limbo quicker no matter how this turns out.

She thought she wouldn't get caught or that you'd file.

You've put yourself in the best possible position you could have.

As you've seen other, better women won't be an issue


----------



## wmn1

straightshooter said:


> Cam,
> 
> You have already gotten some thoughts and advice, so I believe you can take some advice without the sugar coating at this point. Married women do not go out in public holding hands romantically with other men for six months 9 probably more when it all started) and have no sex involved. Yes, there is always the chance it has not happened but you would do yourself a favor if whatever decisions you make you assume that it has happened.
> So lets start with the obvious. No matter what your thoughts are, just about all of the literature on infidelity will tell you that the first step is for NO CONTACT . That does not mean that she tells you she will keep it professional yet still be swooning around him daily for ten hours a day while your gut wonders what is going on.. That is what makes workplace affairs tghe most difficult to catch ( you got lucky) and STOP without some steps that some would call nuclear.
> 
> Right now, you are basically clueless as to the extent of this, and she is not trustworthy to tell you the truth ( and wanting to have sex with you means nothing). My recommendations to you before you make any firm decisions are to
> (1) stop telling her you love her and you can work through this since you have no clue what you are really working through. That is called the pick me game and it rarely works out well for the betrayed of either sex.
> (2) if you decide to stay married she needs to quit that job. If you decide to divorce her she needs to stay in that job until the divorce is final so I would resist blowing it up yet at work.
> (3) she needs to turn over every password of every elertronic device she has. Her right to privacy went out the window with her behavior. Yes, as some will tell you, she can easily go "underground. But her willingness to do it is what is the most important thing. The literature will also tell you that women who resist the requirements for reconciliation or hesitate are much more likely to resume the affair or not stop it at all.
> (4) you need a VAR in her car. Yes, an attorney might tell you it is not legal in your state, but no decent lawyer is going to prosecute that for a cheating spouse, and thousands of folks on these forums have found out the truth quickly in days when they use this tool.
> (5) you need to see an attorney and tell your wife you are doing that. Some will disagree with that but that is gthe one step that will immediately start to make her believe there are going to be some consequences that are not pleasant for her. It does NOT mean you are getting divorced but you need to be prepared in case what you uncover, and there is a lot more, becomes a deal breaker.
> (6) if this OM is married, you tell his wife or partner WITHOUT telling you wife anything about your intentions.
> 
> And lastly, in a workplace affair, with the difficulties on stopping it, you need to tell her you are going to at some point unnanounced in the future demand that she take a polygraph test. Her reaction to that will tell you volumes as to how deep this goes. Those that have nothing to hide hide nothing.
> 
> I believe one of her girlfriends told you. That means others probably know what is going on, and you need to know if any of her friends are covering for her or encouraging her. The VAR will also tell you that very quickly.
> 
> Getting out of denial is the first and most important step. Stay away from MC of any kind right now . You MUST GET THE TRUTH before any steps are taken or you are wasting your time. And same goes for pursuing the "why". If she has been banging him three times a week for six months do you really give a **** why???? I hope the answer to that one is no.
> 
> Men who react quickly and decisively have better outcomes. You have to make a decision as to whether or not getting out of infidelity is your priority or staying married at all costs is. You may not be able to do both, but it is too early to tell yet.
> 
> Cam, DO NOT accept any excuses and the quickest way to knock them off the fence is to play hardball. When they actually believe there is going to be absolutely no cake eating and no stringing you along, you will be amazed at howe clearly their minds straighten out, or they leave. Both are better outcomes than staying in limbo for months or years.
> 
> I suggest you stay on this forum regardless of whether or not you like what you hear. Just about all the folks have been there and done that, some successfully and some not too successfully.




This was last month but I must say this is very spot on and a good model for any new BS to follow


----------



## wmn1

JohnA said:


> At some point this will just turn into a pity party, them cam will drift off to a midlife crisis of quiet despair and hopelessness. When he dies people will just spare a passing thought "nice guy" and their lives will go on unaffected.
> 
> Cam, have you read the back story of some of the posters here? Well one of them has a background in LEO and is only posting here because his gun misfired when he tried to eat lead. He is three year post DDay, raising two children who for the first two years of their life thought they where his. Not MOM who his wife had an EA with. Care this guess which one? Read some back story.
> 
> Another poster here started posting several months ago, has two daughters and sounded just like you. He is in the UK so it require a year separation. It ripped him up but amazing his relationship with his two pre-teen daughters is deeper and continues to deepen. Again guess who. Read the back stories.
> 
> One poster wrote this on a different thread in a response to me:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by JohnA View Post
> When I read newbies threads the first thing I pray they do is establish "what if" plans like the one you describe. You can't reconcile while in fear. Can't be done. Having a clear exit plan and post divorce life in place allows someone the strength to reconcile. I know @Danny4133 is divorcing but once he had establish alternate living arrangements and had filled out the paper work I could see taking time to take one last look, which he did by observing his stbxWW behavior. *Which he did and she failed.*
> 
> 
> 
> JohnA
> 
> One of the many things a betrayed spouse needs to do in the beginning is to let your emotions settle. From there you still have many decisions before you, but you must find that you will be ok with or without your marriage. If you can't do this I don't believe a true reconciliation is possible. You can't reconcile out of fear, stay for the kids, or if you are unable to move past the betrayal. You have to find yourself enough to know that you will be ok no matter what.*
> 
> Once I knew this and that I could move forward beyond the betrayal I thought I could reconcile. I made plans in the event reconciliation would fail, I made plans if reconciliation went well. I worked on myself to get stronger and more independent. My wife had a choice also, move forward or stay left behind. She began doing the same work as I, she devoted herself as I did. I found how I was fallible in my recovery, the toxins I brought to the marriage. It's hard work without a doubt, you must both be willing to see your faults and correct them.*
> 
> I know I chose a difficult path, I tried to prepare myself as best I could. I have plans for reconciliation if it works or fails, so far we are making it. I hope we make it, but if we don't I will leave this relationship a much better man then when I entered. I will be ok, I will still be a father to the boys, but I won't enter into another serious relationship, and I'm ok with that.



very well put


----------



## wmn1

Empty Shell of a Man said:


> I respect you for keeping it from the kids.
> 
> My ex wife took my 12 year old daughter into adult confidence...she knew it was wrong, so she would just cry in front of her and say, "I can't really tell you what's going on..." playing on my daughter's empathy. This, of course, led to her giving a little girl lots of adult detail.
> 
> 10 years later, I was not welcome to my daughter's wedding.
> 
> Prior to that, we were as close as can be.
> 
> Kids end up respecting the parent who refuses to bash the other, in the long run. My daughter will come around. She intellectually knows what her mother did, but the young age combined with hormonal increase of the emotional reactions, made it sketched in her mind.
> 
> I still think your wife should be permitted to 'just consider' the possibility that you and her boyfriend's wife were intimate.
> 
> It might be good rx for her.


that is horrible to not be invited. Ouch


----------



## wmn1

Graywolf2 said:


> Of course she was never going to leave you. She had a division of labor going on. She had you for stability, security and boring day to day stuff and the OM for fun. She wanted both of you for what each of you provided. The OM couldn’t or wouldn’t provide what you did.
> 
> It always amazes me when a WS gets credit for never intending to leave their BS. That’s like your gardener giving you extra points because you never intended for them to stop mowing your lawn.


classic lines. You should copyright it. You are 100% correct


----------



## wmn1

drifting on said:


> Cam
> 
> If she does try to have sex with you say this, I'm sorry, I can't, you gave away the greatest part of being intimate away. The most special bond between us where we give each all of us, and you gave it away for a cheap thrill of excitement. How am I supposed to be intimate now? Why do you want to be intimate with me now? Regardless of the fact you were never going to leave me, you took and gave away that most sacred intimate bond that leaves me nothing.


this is very powerful and accurate


----------



## wmn1

bigfoot said:


> I am sorry that this has happened to you. Here is the thing that I have seen for guys in your position. It is gender neutral actually.
> 
> 1. You love your wife, so getting hit with this is like totally blindsiding. You are asked to make a life changing decision because someone else made a life changing action and now you feel compelled to choose now.
> 
> 2. Choosing is hard because you never thought that you would have to make this choice, at this time, about this person, with this much at stake.
> 
> 3. You wrestle with yourself. You love her and hate what she did. the person you thought that you knew would not do this, but she did, and she is the person that you thought that you knew.
> 
> 4. You have to move forward with cutting her off. You have to work on detaching. treat it like loving her is like loving someone else's wife. You do what you have to do to kill those feelings or at least control them. But there is more.
> 
> 5. You have to let her know that you can let her go. Not just words. She has to feel it. she has to be able to look into your eyes, the windows to your soul, and know that you are serious.
> 
> 6. You have to know that you can do it. That you can actually pull the trigger. That you can actually not love her. That you can leave her. You have to be able to look yourself in the eye now and in the future and know that you were committed to ending it with her, walking away, and starting a new life. Why? Because if you decide to R, you won't regret your choice. Your heart won't condemn you. You won't feel like you capitulated to fear, or uncertainty or anything else. If you R it will be because you made a choice to return and she knows it and you know it. There is nothing worse than eating the sh*t sandwich that she served you with her infidelity and then you feeling like you thanked her for it.
> 
> 7. You have to make a choice from a position of power. If you D, you can walk off hurt but not pitiful. If you R, you can do it in confidence because you know, she knows, and anyone who's opinion you happen to care about knows that it was your decision and not just your default.
> 
> 8. I don't know why you would R, but she is your wife and not mine. I do know that the people who R and seem broken are the one's who did it out of fear, or uncertainty, or any position of weakness. Those who did so out of strength, seem happier. Of course, they all seem like they got something that worth far less than the price that they paid. The happiest that I know, divorced. Every single one.
> 
> Either way decide in strength and live your life to the fullest.


also very good post here


----------



## wmn1

Cam,

Every time you struggle with it, at least initially, think back to when you thought she was chilling out all dressed up claiming she was going out with friends. Then she was with the OM all night. That night, you were certainly Plan B. Also think that she would still be in the affair.

If you reflect upon those two things, then it will harden you up enough to be able to withstand the pity party she is going to give you when she is served.

See how she reacts after she is served and maybe you will get what you want


----------



## curious234

Cam do not use alcohol. Have someone caring for you like a close responsible family member on board to support you. It is very important. I hope she really do her work to get R after she is served with D papers. I still cannot fathom why she engaged in this considering there was nothing wrong with her family life. 
Pain is certain. Suffering is optional - Buddha


----------



## Doyle

Sorry Cam.

Like the others say cut the drink plus if the D gets nasty your drinking could be used against you.

Put on a happy exterior (yeah I know ) pretend your o.k.

And really hit the gym really hard till your so tired you can't think.

Good luck with it all.


----------



## jsmart

cam42 said:


> As much as I love my wife *I have filed for divorce *today. She is going to be served with papers soon and I do think *she will be shocked*. *I unfortunately was using alcohol to attempt to numb the pain,* but I can't do that forever. It was by far the hardest thing I've ever done. She is back at the house and I basically ignore her 24/7 I say hi and that's about it. so our teenage girls while our youngest is so torn up over this. Nobody is mean to her, no one just wants to speak to her. *I'm starting to see not only did my wife hurt me, she hurt our children to the point where they will all probably need professional help. *Although she has been acting as if she wants nothing more than to reconcile, I don't know if I can. *I will use the divorce process to judge how she behaves and then make a decision.*


Smart move on filing and having her served without warning. I hope you set it up to have her served at work. It REALLY rocks their world when you do that. Especially if it was a work place affair.

There is no doubt that your kids are in pain from her betrayal. When you betray your spouse, your betraying the whole family. Too many times women are told and espouse that it's only between the couple but betrayal is against the whole family. 

But if you're noticing the hurt in your kids, trust me, your wife is seeing it too, and it kills her because she realizes that she's the cause. That's why exposure to whole family is a powerful weapon in defogging a wayward.

Your plan to watch her actions, not just her words, during the D process is the best way to go. If her actions are true, and your able to offer forgiveness, then you can stop it down the line or just let it complete and later remarry to rebuild the family under a new unsullied marriage.


----------



## ABHale

I hope you find the resolution you need Cam. Make sure you are there for the kiddos. They need all the time you can give to them right now.


----------



## straightshooter

cam42 said:


> As much as I love my wife I have filed for divorce today. She is going to be served with papers soon and I do think she will be shocked. I unfortunately was using alcohol to attempt to numb the pain, but I can't do that forever. It was by far the hardest thing I've ever done. She is back at the house and I basically ignore her 24/7 I say hi and that's about it. so our teenage girls while our youngest is so torn up over this. Nobody is mean to her, no one just wants to speak to her. I'm starting to see not only did my wife hurt me, she hurt our children to the point where they will all probably need professional help. Although she has been acting as if she wants nothing more than to reconcile, I don't know if I can. I will use the divorce process to judge how she behaves and then make a decision.



Cam,

OK, so now you have to prepare for what will occur when she is served ( my guess at work???). You can expect a total meltdown and her throwing herself at your feet. That means nothing at this point. Should have happened when you caught her instead of her continuing to talk with OM. I just reread this thread, only your posts, and unless i missed it, a couple of things you might need to know are missing, although you might know but have not said.
(1) you stated that if all her girlfriends knew how humiliated you would be. If she got all dolled up and used them as cover, then more than one had to know. Have you gotten the truth on that one?? because if you do attempt at any time to reconcile, it will haunt you not knowing which her her friends can be at social functions with you who knew what she was doing.
(2) are you still in contact at all with OM wife, or is she willing to share anything still with you. You know he initially begged for her to stay with him, and actually was the one who ended it ( not your wife, she would have been more than willing to go underground). What is the status of their marriage?? if she has dumped him, then he is a "free agent" to come after your wife again, and probably will attempt that. You also need to know because his wife certainly will be watching him like a hawk if she is attempting R. 
(3) ok, he's not a job anymore. That does not mean crap. he knows her work e mail and phone number and his new job is not hundreds of miles away. So him not working there any more is NOT any true safety for you if he is an hour away.
(4) what has she offered other than the generic statement about "doing anything to repair the marriage". 

I am still suggesting to you that now that you have filed that before you even consider stopping the divorce you do the polygraph to insure that she has not used your filing to initiate contact with him or anyone else. Many times Ww use the excuse that "I thought we were done" as justification for more inappropriate behavior.

What is truly disturbing here, and i can relate to it, is that your wife has not given you any true or fabricated reasons other than she was bored and loved the attention. That is scary because she was unable to resist the excitement no matter what you did. That combined with her actions on being caught make her not the greatest candidate for R long term. you are going to be facing years of uncertainty.

if you stop the D process i would start working on your list or expectations, starting with the elimination of girls night out to bars with these friends, and if it comes to that discussion of stopping D, see what her reaction is. if she reacts like you are punishing her, that is a red flag that she is in just cover up mode.

There are two types of women cheaters. COMPARTMENTALIZERS are able to function totally normally with their BH, have sex with them, and maintain the perfect family life. These types are harder to catch and usually show no signs. You caught a lucky ( and i use that term carefully) break that she was parading publically or you would probably not be on this forum but still clueless. NON COMPARTMENTALIZERS cannot get past the guilt and therefore must make Bh the demon. They become mean, abusive, withhold sex, and then when hubby reacts poorly it justifies their wayward behavior in their mind. these type are easier to catch if BH can get out of playing ostrich and denial.

You have done a good job working through this ****. Do not make a mistake and stay for the kids. You stay because you think you can in time learn to trust her once you know what she intends to do to rebuild that trust. 

Now get yourself mentally ready for the torrent of tears and slobbering that is about to occur. or the first time in six or seven months, you know what is happening and she does not. use that to your advantage in mentally handling this.


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## curious234

Cam, your words:"The wife was the most kindest, sweetest, loyal person who I thought adored me and I did her" My feeling is she was naive and did not realize the gravity of what she was doing. The OM may have expertly used his skills to manipulate her. Not that she is not at fault. 
I think you should tell her that you had to file rather than surprise her, especially since you still consider R option


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## Evinrude58

Great advice from straight shooter.
I would listen to that carefully.

You did yourself a real favor in filing. All this pain will never end until things get set back right, or things get set for you to move on.

What your wife has done may be forgiveable, but not forgettable. I really think she is not marriage material.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

cam42 said:


> As much as I love my wife I have filed for divorce today. She is going to be served with papers soon and I do think she will be shocked. I unfortunately was using alcohol to attempt to numb the pain, but I can't do that forever. It was by far the hardest thing I've ever done. She is back at the house and I basically ignore her 24/7 I say hi and that's about it. so our teenage girls while our youngest is so torn up over this. Nobody is mean to her, no one just wants to speak to her. I'm starting to see not only did my wife hurt me, she hurt our children to the point where they will all probably need professional help. Although she has been acting as if she wants nothing more than to reconcile, I don't know if I can. I will use the divorce process to judge how she behaves and then make a decision.


Cam, please stay off the sauce. Take it from one who self medicated with 6-8 double bourbons a night after my Dday.
It did nothing but convolute my thought process. I re-read a few of my earlier posts made under the influence and man do the sound stupid to me now. I channeled my anger and hurt into exercise and cut down on the booze.That did more than anything to ease the pain. Take time for YOU. Work to improve yourself.

On a side note By letting her back in the house she is not feeling the pain she needs to feel, nor giving you the space you need to collect your thoughts. I would also encourage you to have her served at her place of work for shock value. She needs to feel your pain.


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## Graywolf2

cam42 said:


> She is going to be served with papers soon and I do think she will be shocked.


I think that she will be socked too. She knows how much you love her. All along she believed that all she needed was a fair shot and she could smooth this over. To her a fair shot is to live with you and have sex. 



cam42 said:


> She asked me to come to bed with her sounded like an invitation to sex but I just declined.
> 
> She came to sit on the bed with me yesterday while I was laying down and kept asking me if I wanted any "stimulation" and that she's so sorry and will do whatever she can to make it right.
> 
> She told me she was buying condoms today if I wanted to try them out with her.
> 
> I told her I think I needed more time away from her, she doesn't understand how were supposed to fix our marriage if were living apart, she wants to be able to communicate.
> 
> She is basically taking no for an answer on why she wants to come home, saying she misses us.


No matter how bad things have gotten between you two she always had the hope that she could turn things around if she was only allowed to work her “magic.” Hope is what has been keeping her going. When she sees the papers she may finally realize that hope is gone. Her life as she knew it is over. Be ready.


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## Evinrude58

Some people say that filing just puts in their mind that you never really loved them and makes them not want to reconcile.
I think that's bull****.

Your wife knows you love her. She knows you want to revincile. She knows YOU.
When she sees you're not done wimp that can't make it on his own, and one that has some balls, she will likely start respecting you a little and your worth to her will be even higher. She will see just how wrong about you she was. That her vagina is not the only o e in the world. 

You can't fix this. You can't make her love you. But you can get a little respect for yourself, and from her. The love on her end might return, who knows. One thing is certain--/ she hasn't loved you in a long time.

You've set yourself up for a better life no matter what you choose.
I had to file. I know you will be in tears when she finds out she's been served. Don't let her see them, or let her know you care.

If she thinks you'll take getting cheated on---/ she will no doubt do it again. Likely will anyway.

I think you did good,


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## Malaise

Evinrude58 said:


> Some people say that filing just puts in their mind that you never really loved them and makes them not want to reconcile.
> I think that's bull****.


It's self defense.


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## sokillme

straightshooter said:


> What is truly disturbing here, and i can relate to it, is that your wife has not given you any true or fabricated reasons other than she was bored and loved the attention. That is scary because she was unable to resist the excitement no matter what you did. That combined with her actions on being caught make her not the greatest candidate for R long term. you are going to be facing years of uncertainty.


I curious what reasons she could give that don't have the same affect. Anyone who had an affair is going to be a risk because it means there is something in them that allows them to do it. Or more likely there is something not in them the forces them to stop. Empathy would be the word that comes to mind. That is a pretty hard one to teach.


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## drifting on

Cam42

I, and I'm sure others will tell you that this isn't easy, you're feeling pain you've most likely never felt to this degree in your life. You're shattered and broken, and the posters here know this, and can help you through this. I too, was brought to my knees, but I'm standing firm now, and a much better man because of the work I put into me. This is what you must start doing now. Work on you, become the best me you can be, realize your flaws and correct them. Please don't think I'm saying the affair was your fault, I'm saying to correct the flaws within you. 

If you correct your flaws you become a much better person if you reconcile or divorce. You are a better father, you are the best you can be. This will be difficult to self reflect, but you need to own your shlt as much as your wife needs to own hers. It will take time for this to happen but you can get it done. 

As for your next step, you need to sit your wife down and tell her what you see. Tell her the affair would still be going if they weren't spotted. Tell her that is a huge strike against her, and you are only watching actions. Tell her words mean nothing since she lied and deceived you for so long. That this has caused severe damage to your trust for her, and that only actions can bring trust back. Tell her she has destroyed the family for her children, simply because some person who never cared or loved her wanted sex. Tell her that she was once the sparkle in your eye, and now that sparkle is nothing but smoke rising from the rubble.

Be vulnerable and tell her that her giving the best of herself for simple selfish pleasure has destroyed the value in which you had for her. Tell her when you lay next to her, you truly wonder who she really is that could stab her family in the back as she had done. Tell her you only see regret from her, and that you truly feel that she would have some remorse for her actions. But since the affair would still be going, she only has regret. Be vulnerable in telling her how this has impacted you, and that you will not make any solid decision for some time. You can't possibly reconcile since she hasn't hit remorse yet. Tell her you need to protect yourself and the kids, and that you are taking steps to ensure their best interests as well as your own. Tell her some of these decisions were difficult to arrive to, but they are decisions based on what is best for the family. 

Tell her she has to earn her way back into the family. Tell her it will be a long and painful road for her to travel, but if she truly wants to reconcile she will make the journey. Tell her both reconciliation and divorce are both on the table, and her actions from here forward will make your decision. She needs to hear all of this Cam, she needs to know fully what she has done and the consequences to HER choices. Don't you dare let her tell you she made a mistake, she made a conscious decision to have sex with someone other then you. 

One last question to ask her, and this question had the second biggest reaction from my wife. As you had sex with OM, you never once thought of me, our marriage, and the devastation that would affect your own kids. How could you have done this? Of course I couldn't add the kids in my question, but it sure gave her some real hard facts to digest. You aren't trying to break or ruin your wife Cam, but instead holding her accountable and trying to gauge if this could ever happen again. The reason for waiting six months is for you, not her to prove herself, but if she is like my wife she will gladly take any chance offered. She will then bust her butt to prove through actions she is worthy of the gift of reconciliation.

Best of luck.


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## sokillme

One other thing about my parents divorce and knowing about what happened. I was 7 when they divorced. I didn't know the truth until I asked and my Mother told me the truth, probably around 11, but she never used it to undermine my relationship with my father. She talked about his actions and how they effected us, but also that he loved me (which was true) and that he was a good father to me (which in all other respects was true). 

That was absolutely the right way to handle it. I still needed a father in my life. Your kids still need a mother no matter how flawed she it. They will figure it out as they get experience. Being married has only served to see how terrible my fathers decision making was in his life. But he has to live with that. I now know how hard that was for her and it only serves to make me respect her more.


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## cam42

Yeah no one is taking this well at all. The tension in the house is extremely high, I think my wife is paranoid about the way I've been acting. She's hurt due to the fact that I'm barely speaking to her, has said she's so sorry for destroying our family. I don't know what to say to her anymore, I except she will not take the filing well. It's going to be done at work, like I said I'm not sure if I will go through with it. I want to judge her reaction and her actions post her being served. Maybe I will go through with it, who knows.


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## sokillme

cam42 said:


> Yeah no one is taking this well at all. The tension in the house is extremely high, I think my wife is paranoid about the way I've been acting. She's hurt due to the fact that I'm barely speaking to her, has said she's so sorry for destroying our family. I don't know what to say to her anymore, I except she will not take the filing well. It's going to be done at work, like I said I'm not sure if I will go through with it. I want to judge her reaction and her actions post her being served. Maybe I will go through with it, who knows.


You need to think of her like a kid in the long run the punishment will be good for her. Turn off your natural husband protect mode for now, she fired you, remember that.


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## cam42

double post accident.


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## lovelygirl

cam42 said:


> Also during the session i*t was addressed that she felt more like roommates instead of lovers and felt we didn't connect as much so the OM filled that void for her. I never got the I need space or I'm not in love with you speech.* I have a lawyer in mind and have already spoken to her it looks like she's one of the best in town but she's expensive, I need the strength to file please don't mess this one up(talking to myself). I need to get through this and stop being depressed for my own well being and my children. I fear that all the disgusting details of this ordeal will never leave my mind, the I love you's and all that world shattering information. I deserve to be happy with or without my wife, I will not make my decision yet but will monitor her behavior. Going to keep very low contact between us most likely.


That's bad. Really bad. When I woman starts thinking of a man as a roommate, it's VERY hard for her to go back to previous viewpoint as a (sexual) partner (unless you make DRASTIC changes in attitude, behavior, looks...etc).

She doesn't have to give you the direct ILYBNILWY speech, but her opinion of you as a roommate is a variation of the speech and speaks volumes that she still keeps OM as a strong/hard/fetish sexual partner compared to you.

Also, from what I read, she was trying to buy you with sex. Just don't fall for that. Just because she gives you sex to make you think she still wants you, it's a temporary game that many WW use to keep their husbands. 

Just think about this, how can a WW go from a strong sexual desire for OM to a sexual desire for her BH? The lack of the sexual desire for her husband is what let her to OM. So how does she suddenly wants to have sex with you again??

That's hypocrisy.

EDIT: BTW, read my signature. Spot On!


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## barbados

cam42 said:


> Yeah no one is taking this well at all. *The tension in the house is extremely high*, I think my wife is paranoid about the way I've been acting. *She's hurt due to the fact that I'm barely speaking to her*, has said she's so sorry for destroying our family. I don't know what to say to her anymore, I except she will not take the filing well. It's going to be done at work, like I said I'm not sure if I will go through with it. I want to judge her reaction and her actions post her being served. Maybe I will go through with it, who knows.


Yes, because she is selfish. As evidenced by the affair, and now her being back in the house. You rightfully asked her for time apart and she insisted on coming back to the house already. She doesn't care the effect on you, or her own children. She is just concerned with protecting her own a$$.

And she is hurt because you won't talk to her ??? Just remind her that you are hurt that she was having sex with another man !


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## JohnA

Yet didn't you at one point describe your sex life as lessen over the years but ok? That she still found you attractive?


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &amp;quot;emotional affair&amp;quot; with a married man*

Cam:

I am going to go against the choir here, and urge a small measure of restraint. I would not serve her at work.

It is clear you are testing her with your filing. 

Letting her know you are filing, and why, and then having her served discreetly, is putting her on notice by military build up.

Serving her by surprise at work is a preemptive strike designed to demonstrate shock and awe; an overt act of war through carpet bombing of an area target when a smart weapon on a point target would suffice.

If she were being generally hostile, I would absolutely serve her at work. If you had zero interest in reconciliation, I would absolutely serve her at work.

Where you are with wanting reconciliation, I think it would be a huge mistake to do this.

Sit her down. Tell her you are filing for divorce not because you want to, but because her actions have left you no choice. 

Then, tell her that she has until mediation or court to convince you she is worth remaining married to.

The choice to remain married will then be up to her. At that point, no more talking about the relationship until she agrees to what you need from her to be a safe partner.

Tread carefully, brother.


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## ABHale

cam42 said:


> Yeah no one is taking this well at all. The tension in the house is extremely high, I think my wife is paranoid about the way I've been acting. She's hurt due to the fact that I'm barely speaking to her, has said she's so sorry for destroying our family. I don't know what to say to her anymore, I except she will not take the filing well. It's going to be done at work, like I said I'm not sure if I will go through with it. I want to judge her reaction and her actions post her being served. Maybe I will go through with it, who knows.


I believe you are doing the right thing. Especially with what she had said in therapy. You can always stop the D if you believe it is possible to fix the marriage. 

Be there for your kids. They need you and you need them.


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## sokillme

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &amp;quot;emotional affair&amp;quot; with a married man*



farsidejunky said:


> Cam:
> 
> I am going to go against the choir here, and urge a small measure of restraint. I would not serve her at work.
> 
> It is clear you are testing her with your filing.
> 
> Letting her know you are filing, and why, and then having her served discreetly, is putting her on notice by military build up.
> 
> Serving her by surprise at work is a preemptive strike designed to demonstrate shock and awe; an overt act of war through carpet bombing of an area target when a smart weapon on a point target would suffice.
> 
> If she were being generally hostile, I would absolutely serve her at work. If you had zero interest in reconciliation, I would absolutely serve her at work.
> 
> Where you are with wanting reconciliation, I think it would be a huge mistake to do this.
> 
> Sit her down. Tell her you are filing for divorce not because you want to, but because her actions have left you no choice.
> 
> Then, tell her that she has until mediation or court to convince you she is worth remaining married to.
> 
> The choice to remain married will then be up to her. At that point, no more talking about the relationship until she agrees to what you need from her to be a safe partner.
> 
> Tread carefully, brother.


I agree don't serve her at work, but I don't agree at all that you should leave a trail of bread crumbs to R. Let her lead the R if she really wants it. I really don't like the idea of saying. I am divorcing but I really don't want to so you need to be really really good wink wink. She is a grown woman if she wants OP she should be smart enough to fight for him without his prompting. If she is not then that's just another reason why there is better for him. And if she is as sorry as she says she will fight with all her heart, and that is the least she can do really. 

She royally F-ed up her whole family it's not OP's job to fix it or even tell her how to fix it. She didn't give a 5hit for the months she was in the affair, and she was able to give all her effort to the other man without prompting. Your suggestion just reinforces to OP that he is plan B. It's just another sign the OP has to prompt his wife to do the right thing. At least if she fights for it without his prompting it will give some feeling of being of value to her.

Frankly I wouldn't tell her anything. Let her ask, let her try to convince you. This is her first test. It will be hard but is should be. Going through this is the hardest thing you will ever have to go though hopefully. It should be damn hard for her. If she asks how she can fix this tell her, you figure it out. You broke it. 

I am not for R but if I was going to do it the first thing I would need is a woman doing all the work without me even prompting her. She can get on these sites, people will give her the books to read. OP shouldn't have to do 5hit.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &amp;quot;emotional affair&amp;quot; with a married man*

Cam, there is something to be said for putting the burden on the wayward to prove they have earned reconciliation. 

Where I urge caution is placing the burden of leadership on the wayward. 

Should they show initiative on the micro level by reading, IC, and trying to unpack why they just blew up their family? Absolutely. 

However, from a macro level, a wayward has shown they are unable to lead themselves properly by choosing to potentially destroy their family through an affair. I wouldn't trust them to lead themselves out of a paper bag. 

Therefore, there must be some guiding from you. Show her what you think a healthy partner looks like, and give her an opportunity to be that person if she so chooses. 

If she can't hack it, or chooses not to, send her packing. But don't make the mistake of thinking she is going to lead jack **** in your reconciliation, especially early in the process.


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## RWB

lovelygirl said:


> Also, from what I read, she was trying to buy you with sex. Just don't fall for that. Just because she gives you sex to make you think she still wants you, it's a temporary game that many WW use to keep their husbands.
> 
> *Just think about this, how can a WW go from a strong sexual desire for OM to a sexual desire for her BH?* The lack of the sexual desire for her husband is what let her to OM. So how does she suddenly wants to have sex with you again??
> 
> That's hypocrisy.


Damn LG were you in my bedroom listening post DD. 

Cam, it's her only card to play. Trust me, been there, you are very vulnerable. Keep asking yourself that question that LG poised... How?

She is desperate. She knows she is out on the end of the limb. Her life will be over if she falls. She will say... she will do... she will pretend to be any/every thing to keep from falling.


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## Finity

This is only your beginning of pain. Your wife is holding back in order not to hurt you further. If she wants the marriage to succeed she needs to tell you the whole truth and not the trickled truth.


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## straightshooter

cam42 said:


> Yeah no one is taking this well at all. The tension in the house is extremely high, I think my wife is paranoid about the way I've been acting. She's hurt due to the fact that I'm barely speaking to her, has said she's so sorry for destroying our family. I don't know what to say to her anymore, I except she will not take the filing well. It's going to be done at work, like I said I'm not sure if I will go through with it. I want to judge her reaction and her actions post her being served. Maybe I will go through with it, who knows.


Cam,

You have come this far. Do yourself a favor and do not let anything she SAYS derail the course of action you have chosen. You cannot be afraid of her reaction to the filing of the divorce papers. Someone else said it, but a short time ago she was not having any second thoughts and gladly having sex with another man, WHICH WOULD STILL BE GOING ON IF FATE DID NOT HELP YOU.
You are letting her manipulate the narrative now. 
Remorse comes over time. You are seeing nothing but regret right now since she now may not have her boyfriend nor you. Not exactly what's she had planned, namely having regular sex with her boyfriend and good old Cam to help pay the bills.

No one is saying that you cannot stop the divorce if she does all the right things for some time, AND SHE PASSES A POLYGRAPH TEST VERIFYING THERE HAS BEEN NO CONTACT and no communication.

Please read the thread title. You thought it was an emotional affair and gave her the benefit of the doubt. If you read here often you will see how few BH get the OM spouse to give them the total truthful details. Don't blow it. You may not be that lucky next time.

Now let her get filed on at work or wherever you want to but you are making a big mistake if you let her come barging back into the house, and you just suck it up. If you let that happen, she regains control of the narrative. By filing, she gets a set amount of time to make you want her back and believe that her words are not just hollow CYA.


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## cam42

She's not acting hostile in anyway. I think she's very scared and worried. I have noticed she's purchased multiple affair books off Amazon and she reads it throughout the day. About the roommate thing.... I have asked why stay in a marriage if you're not sexually attracted to me? I was met with "I have nothing more to lose, if I wasn't sexually attracted to you anymore I wouldn't even be trying anymore. I love you not like a brother or roommate but as a husband, even though I don't even have the right to after what I've done to you and our family" I was told that during the affair she enjoyed thinking of her encounters with the other man, now all she wants to do is throw up and she's absolutely disgusted.

She spends all her time researching about all of this to the point where I think it's getting unhealthy. I should be happy about it, but I just feel upset. She has said she wants to take me out to dinner on Valentine's Day if I'm okay with that. Should I even go.... I mean I have just filed for divorce and all without her knowledge. I am also starting to feel guilty about not letting her know. I think now she's starting to see what she did, but I can't let these actions determine our future yet. I love her but I can't decide right now.


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## becareful2

Do you two still sleep in the same bed? How much talking do you do with your three daughters? Are they in therapy still?


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## Malaise

cam42 said:


> She's not acting hostile in anyway. I think she's very scared and worried. I have noticed she's purchased multiple affair books off Amazon and she reads it throughout the day. About the roommate thing.... I have asked why stay in a marriage if you're not sexually attracted to me? I was met with "I have nothing more to lose, if I wasn't sexually attracted to you anymore I wouldn't even be trying anymore.* I love you not like a brother or roommate but as a husband, even though I don't even have the right to after what I've done to you and our family" I was told that during the affair she enjoyed thinking of her encounters with the other man, now all she wants to do is throw up and she's absolutely disgusted.
> *
> She spends all her time researching about all of this to the point where I think it's getting unhealthy. I should be happy about it, but I just feel upset. She has said she wants to take me out to dinner on Valentine's Day if I'm okay with that. Should I even go.... I mean I have just filed for divorce and all without her knowledge. I am also starting to feel guilty about not letting her know. I think now she's starting to see what she did, but I can't let these actions determine our future yet. I love her but I can't decide right now.


This is classic. Only after she's found out does she come to this realization. Damage control.

Don't go to dinner. Valentine's Day ( I hate it with a passion, but that's part of my story ) is for lovers. Is that how you see both of you?

You could say to her, and some may find it cruel but she should be aware of how you feel, " I can't in all honesty go to dinner on VD with you, it wouldn't be right because I've filed for divorce. "


----------



## farsidejunky

cam42 said:


> She's not acting hostile in anyway. I think she's very scared and worried. I have noticed she's purchased multiple affair books off Amazon and she reads it throughout the day. About the roommate thing.... I have asked why stay in a marriage if you're not sexually attracted to me? I was met with "I have nothing more to lose, if I wasn't sexually attracted to you anymore I wouldn't even be trying anymore. I love you not like a brother or roommate but as a husband, even though I don't even have the right to after what I've done to you and our family" I was told that during the affair she enjoyed thinking of her encounters with the other man, now all she wants to do is throw up and she's absolutely disgusted.
> 
> She spends all her time researching about all of this to the point where I think it's getting unhealthy. I should be happy about it, but I just feel upset. She has said she wants to take me out to dinner on Valentine's Day if I'm okay with that. Should I even go.... I mean I have just filed for divorce and all without her knowledge. I am also starting to feel guilty about not letting her know. I think now she's starting to see what she did, but I can't let these actions determine our future yet. I love her but I can't decide right now.


I would not go out for Valentine's Day.

"Valentine's Day is for celebrating romantic love. You have indicated you don't view me that way. I'm not okay with pretending."

Tell her you filed and why.


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## Lostinthought61

Cam,

I agree with the others, no to valentine dinner, but tell her you will take a rain check.....remind her that valentine day is for your one and only and not plan b. I know you are upset but I want you to read your posts at the beginning of this thread and how she mad you feel. I am on the fence about telling her about filing. But this is the important thing....what you done has given her a clock, that is counting down...and if she wants to save this marriage it will be up to her to do all the heavy lifting...this is the time to see if she really wants to do everything in her powers to save the marriage or not....clearly the ball is now in her court.


----------



## Mike6211

cam42 said:


> ...I have noticed *she's purchased multiple affair books off Amazon and she reads [them] throughout the day* ... I have asked why stay in a marriage if you're not sexually attracted to me? I was met with "I have nothing more to lose, if I wasn't sexually attracted to you anymore I wouldn't even be trying anymore. I love you not like a brother or roommate but as a husband, even though I don't even have the right to after what I've done to you and our family". I was told that during the affair she enjoyed thinking of her encounters with the other man, now all she wants to do is throw up and she's absolutely disgusted.


 (my emphasis)

Are those things that she's learned from the books that she 'should' be saying, as a remorseful WW?



> She spends all her time *researching* about all of this to the point where I think it's getting *unhealthy*....


 (my emphasis)

Researching what she 'should' be saying, instead of expressing what she *really* feels, might not be good for your long-term health if you don't keep your antennae tuned to spot the difference ...


----------



## jsmart

cam42 said:


> She's not acting hostile in anyway. I think she's very scared and worried. *I have noticed she's purchased multiple affair books off Amazon and she reads it throughout the day. *About the roommate thing.... I have asked why stay in a marriage if you're not sexually attracted to me? I was met with "I have nothing more to lose, if I wasn't sexually attracted to you anymore I wouldn't even be trying anymore. I love you not like a brother or roommate but as a husband, even though I don't even have the right to after what I've done to you and our family" I was told that *during the affair she enjoyed thinking of her encounters with the other man, now all she wants to do is throw up and she's absolutely disgusted.*
> 
> She spends all her time researching about all of this to the point where I think it's getting unhealthy. I should be happy about it, but I just feel upset. *She has said she wants to take me out to dinner on Valentine's Day if I'm okay with that. Should I even go.*... I mean I have just filed for divorce and all without her knowledge. I am also starting to feel guilty about not letting her know. I think now *she's starting to see what she did, but I can't let these actions determine our future yet. I love her but I can't decide right now.*


As @farsidejunky said earlier, some WWs need to be guided on what they should be doing to earn a chance to R. Right now she's scared and kind of frozen in her tracks. To get into the affair, she had OM pulling her along, here she has to to be proactive which is hard to do when there is no guidance. 

I imagine she has been doing what's come to her slowly defogging brain, which is to cry that she's sorry for what she's done. It's a very positive sign that she proactively researched for books on affairs and is devouring them on how to repair what she's done.

Her saying that she's disgusted with her actions is also a positive sign. Exposing her to the family has accelerated the defogging. Her seeing her kids reaction was like a bucket of ice code water to her fogged up head. The kids rallying around dad, is a powerful visual of what she was destroying. (This should serve as an example to those that doubt that exposing to family is harmful.)

Like I said in my last post, your plan to file and put her on notice that you're watching her actions will determine if a future R is possible is the smart path to go on. I just advise that you don't only rely on the stick to get her to move in the right direction. She's going to need a little bit of carrot of hope to continue on the path.

Cam, i know you feel broken and confused but so far you're doing good. Things are moving in the right direction.

I also agree that Valentines dinner should be turned down by saying it is for lovers, we're not there yet.


----------



## manfromlamancha

cam42 said:


> I didn't ask her because I'm sure it was more than an EA no matter what she says. There's a night in particular that I'm sure she had a night with her boyfriend. Day before New Year's Eve she was dolled up with a dress and heels and said she was going out with her girlfriends. She came come later than she said she would and showered right afterwards with her hair all messed up. I asked about that night to the other mans wife and she confirmed over the phone.
> 
> That sounds so pathetic, she even asked me how she looked before she went to go **** the other guy. The anger I feel is unbelievable.


I would read your above post again and remember her coldness in doing what she did that night before feeling sorry for her - of course, this is an act at the moment. "OMG, what have I done ?" and as others are saying, she is saying what she should be saying and thats what she is reading up about. Don't believe a thing she says - she is in damage control and will be very convincing - she is, after all, a great liar as you now know!

Stay strong Cam. She should be moving mountains not just saying the right things right now. If she really wants you she should be prepared to get divorced but still continue trying to win you back.

Any woman who gets dolled up and asks her husband how she looks before going off to **** the other POS is not worthy of R.

*{Moderator Note: I spelled out the profanity. Please follow forum rules in regards to the profanity filter.

8. Filter Bypass/Obscenity: A profanity filter is in place and any attempts to bypass it are forbidden. You MAY type words that are filtered, as long as they are not abusive towards other quests or violate any other rules; however, you must allow the filter to do its job. Do NOT try to filter the word yourself and do not try to use creative spelling to bypass the profanity filter. Also, posting images of videos of obscene gestures, linking to obscene web sites, posting obscene or graphic descriptions of a decidedly adult nature, and violating a standard of decent behavior is not allowed.

February 21st is the deadline for full enforcement of the measure.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/forum-guidelines/350914-posting-guidelines-forum-rules-2016-a.html }*


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## wmn1

drifting on said:


> Cam42
> 
> I, and I'm sure others will tell you that this isn't easy, you're feeling pain you've most likely never felt to this degree in your life. You're shattered and broken, and the posters here know this, and can help you through this. I too, was brought to my knees, but I'm standing firm now, and a much better man because of the work I put into me. This is what you must start doing now. Work on you, become the best me you can be, realize your flaws and correct them. Please don't think I'm saying the affair was your fault, I'm saying to correct the flaws within you.
> 
> If you correct your flaws you become a much better person if you reconcile or divorce. You are a better father, you are the best you can be. This will be difficult to self reflect, but you need to own your shlt as much as your wife needs to own hers. It will take time for this to happen but you can get it done.
> 
> As for your next step, you need to sit your wife down and tell her what you see. Tell her the affair would still be going if they weren't spotted. Tell her that is a huge strike against her, and you are only watching actions. Tell her words mean nothing since she lied and deceived you for so long. That this has caused severe damage to your trust for her, and that only actions can bring trust back. Tell her she has destroyed the family for her children, simply because some person who never cared or loved her wanted sex. Tell her that she was once the sparkle in your eye, and now that sparkle is nothing but smoke rising from the rubble.
> 
> Be vulnerable and tell her that her giving the best of herself for simple selfish pleasure has destroyed the value in which you had for her. Tell her when you lay next to her, you truly wonder who she really is that could stab her family in the back as she had done. Tell her you only see regret from her, and that you truly feel that she would have some remorse for her actions. But since the affair would still be going, she only has regret. Be vulnerable in telling her how this has impacted you, and that you will not make any solid decision for some time. You can't possibly reconcile since she hasn't hit remorse yet. Tell her you need to protect yourself and the kids, and that you are taking steps to ensure their best interests as well as your own. Tell her some of these decisions were difficult to arrive to, but they are decisions based on what is best for the family.
> 
> Tell her she has to earn her way back into the family. Tell her it will be a long and painful road for her to travel, but if she truly wants to reconcile she will make the journey. Tell her both reconciliation and divorce are both on the table, and her actions from here forward will make your decision. She needs to hear all of this Cam, she needs to know fully what she has done and the consequences to HER choices. Don't you dare let her tell you she made a mistake, she made a conscious decision to have sex with someone other then you.
> 
> One last question to ask her, and this question had the second biggest reaction from my wife. As you had sex with OM, you never once thought of me, our marriage, and the devastation that would affect your own kids. How could you have done this? Of course I couldn't add the kids in my question, but it sure gave her some real hard facts to digest. You aren't trying to break or ruin your wife Cam, but instead holding her accountable and trying to gauge if this could ever happen again. The reason for waiting six months is for you, not her to prove herself, but if she is like my wife she will gladly take any chance offered. She will then bust her butt to prove through actions she is worthy of the gift of reconciliation.
> 
> Best of luck.


very well put DO


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

No to Valentine's Day. You must make her feel some pain. Another consequence.Tell her no thank you and leave it at that.

Please do not send flowers or a card. If she does so to you, simply pick the card of gift and toss it in the trash for dramatic effect. 


She is definitely in damage control mode.


----------



## barbados

Frankly Cam when she mentioned V-Day your response should have been, "Are you F-ing kidding me? "


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## ABHale

cam42 said:


> She's not acting hostile in anyway. I think she's very scared and worried. I have noticed she's purchased multiple affair books off Amazon and she reads it throughout the day. About the roommate thing.... I have asked why stay in a marriage if you're not sexually attracted to me? I was met with "*I have nothing more to lose, if I wasn't sexually attracted to you anymore I wouldn't even be trying anymore. I love you not like a brother or roommate but as a husband, even though I don't even have the right to after what I've done to you and our family"* I was told that during the affair she enjoyed thinking of her encounters with the other man, now all she wants to do is throw up and she's absolutely disgusted.
> 
> She spends all her time researching about all of this to the point where I think it's getting unhealthy. I should be happy about it, but I just feel upset. She has said she wants to take me out to dinner on Valentine's Day if I'm okay with that. Should I even go.... I mean I have just filed for divorce and all without her knowledge. I am also starting to feel guilty about not letting her know. I think now she's starting to see what she did, but I can't let these actions determine our future yet. I love her but I can't decide right now.



I don't understand this part, she says she loves you as a husband but says she wouldn't even be trying if she wasn't sexually attracted to you? Really sounds off the wall. 

I would decline the offer to go out. Let her know that Valentines is for lovers and the two of you have lost that for now. Also let her know the only thing that would be on your mind is the last time she was out on a date with the other man when you found out. 

If it would be ok. . Take your daughters out on a father daughter date Tuesday. Show them that you are still there for them and try and have some fun.


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## bigfoot

You want things to be like old times. Familiar. Comfortable. That will make you feel secure.

Going out on valentines day will evoke those feelings. The thing is, none of it will be real. Keep your head and heart clear. Don't do stuff to confuse things.

D or R, you can't do either with a messed up head. You gotta move forward with your plan and be consistent as you can be.

What is the context of her saying, she had nothing left to lose? Sounded odd.


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## ABHale

Do not tell her about the D papers. 

Have her served at work like you planed. Let her co workers see her get served for the actions they witnessed. This is the only way to regain the respect you lost in their eyes. It will also change the atmosphere at her work where your wife would most likely never even try anything like this again if you R. These is one of the consequences she needs to go through. A price has to be paid for you to R.


----------



## Yeswecan

manfromlamancha said:


> Any woman who gets dolled up and asks her husband how she looks before going off to **** the other POS is not worthy of R.


Concur 100%. She was cold, calculating, crass, callous and uncaring. Probably thought is was funny as well.

Big no on the Valentines dinner.

*{Moderator Note: I spelled out the profanity. Please follow forum rules in regards to the profanity filter.

8. Filter Bypass/Obscenity: A profanity filter is in place and any attempts to bypass it are forbidden. You MAY type words that are filtered, as long as they are not abusive towards other quests or violate any other rules; however, you must allow the filter to do its job. Do NOT try to filter the word yourself and do not try to use creative spelling to bypass the profanity filter. Also, posting images of videos of obscene gestures, linking to obscene web sites, posting obscene or graphic descriptions of a decidedly adult nature, and violating a standard of decent behavior is not allowed.

February 21st is the deadline for full enforcement of the measure.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/forum-guidelines/350914-posting-guidelines-forum-rules-2016-a.html }*


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Have you asked her why she did this? That is beyond cruel to say the least.To me this was her way of rubbing your nose it.


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## ABHale

Damn I forgotten about her asking how she looked before going out.


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## drifting on

Cam42

I understand your position and how you feel at the moment. My d-day was January 20, 2014. First holiday was Valentine's Day if you really consider it to be a holiday. Many don't, and I can understand that also. For me that was a very trying day, my wife hadn't been faithful and I was too destroyed. I think right now you are also too destroyed, and in the beginning where you are now in afraid the damage may be to volital. If your footing were more secure, then fine, but right now it isn't. All you would hear is how sorry she is and what she will do. But my worry is what if she says something wrong or you perceive what she said different then what she meant. That could do far more damage. 

Your conversations that you need to have are raw and painful. You can't get away from that right now, so acting like all is fine for dinner is reckless. Tell her you will both spend the night at home. If you choose to, speak of the affair for an allotted time. If one gets to be angry or defensive stop your conversation immediately, and agree to this ahead of time. Your steps are light, it's like walking on thin ice, don't just bull your way through. 

As for her leading reconciliation or even divorce, you are to lead. This healing process moves to your agenda, not hers. If she leads this I guarantee you will hear, get over it already. You lead, but she must do things on her own too, which it appears she is. Cam, realize you could crush her right now with very little effort, you could make her broken for years, but what does that accomplish? You need her to be the best she can be for your kids, not you, she is still their mom. Do she make devastatingly bad choices? Yes. Did she blow up her marriage? Yes. Did she hurt you like you've never felt pain before? Yes. Hold her accountable but be careful not to crush her, it's hard, trust me, but it won't make you feel or heal any faster. At the end of the day you will only have two broken people more then they were when they woke up. 
@farsidejunky has given you great advice in his last several posts. Posts I hope you read a few times, as they are delivering consequences but not breaking her. To hold those divorce papers alone will devastate her, it could also be the turning point for her to really begin to feel remorse. Have her served at home, or maybe even have your lawyer call her to pick them up from their office. It will still have the desired effect on her, but you have shown both dignity and compassion. Do not make a decision yet, but you can allow for the scale to be tipped in the direction of divorce or reconciliation. By giving time, it allows you to make the best decision possible, the best decision for you. Maybe Valentine's Day you could tell her this, you have filed for divorce, but you do not know if you will divorce or reconcile, that is the best gift you can offer at this time. But remind her of actions, those are what you are watching. 

Best of luck to you. Oh, one more thing, if I were you Cam, I'd be taking out the friend who told you about seeing her and buying them a dinner of thanks.


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## Malaise

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Have you asked her why she did this? That is beyond cruel to say the least.To me* this was her way of rubbing your nose it*.


 ^^^^^^^^^^^

That is the reason.

She knew something he didn't, she had the power.


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## Yeswecan

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Have you asked her why she did this? That is beyond cruel to say the least.To me this was her way of rubbing your nose it.


Exactly. Very very cold and full of contempt. For me, this would be first question concerning the night in question.


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## Doyle

Frankly Cam when she mentioned V-Day your response should have been, "Are you F-ing kidding me? " 

This is a good response, also point out that if you hadn't found out she'd have probabley been having a romantic valentines dinner with the other guy.


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## sokillme

cam42 said:


> She's not acting hostile in anyway. I think she's very scared and worried. I have noticed she's purchased multiple affair books off Amazon and she reads it throughout the day. About the roommate thing.... I have asked why stay in a marriage if you're not sexually attracted to me? I was met with "I have nothing more to lose, if I wasn't sexually attracted to you anymore I wouldn't even be trying anymore. I love you not like a brother or roommate but as a husband, even though I don't even have the right to after what I've done to you and our family" I was told that during the affair she enjoyed thinking of her encounters with the other man, now all she wants to do is throw up and she's absolutely disgusted.
> 
> She spends all her time researching about all of this to the point where I think it's getting unhealthy. I should be happy about it, but I just feel upset. She has said she wants to take me out to dinner on Valentine's Day if I'm okay with that. Should I even go.... I mean I have just filed for divorce and all without her knowledge. I am also starting to feel guilty about not letting her know. I think now she's starting to see what she did, but I can't let these actions determine our future yet. I love her but I can't decide right now.


This the exact reason why we all suggested you get space. I hope you at least made her sleep in another room. The idea of space is so she can't play on your emotions, your husband like nature to protect your wife. Remember this is the same nature she used to manipulate you with so she could hide the fact that she was cheating on you. Since you are already waffling I am going to give you a pep talk. Plus someone on here needs to present the other side. 

First of all, you have no idea if she is sorry. This is the same women who wanted to have sex with you right after her boyfriend dumped her. Your wife has shown herself to be a master manipulator. Remember you asked her to give you some space and she gave you a day. Being sorry is a lifetime of actions, not words or even reading some books. Most of the time these WS don't even have the ability to really emotionally get what they did. They do know that crying and acting sad makes it look like they do, and ultimately gets them what they want. They have had a lifetime of doing that dance. The fact that she can ask you to do to dinner with her on Valentine's day shows she doesn't get it. 

You think they get it but, then you read the post from them, and you can read between the lines the if they really got it they would be ashamed to write what they do. Here is a good primer for what you are dealing with. For these women it's still really about them, Yes I f-ed another man, but how dare my husband make me feel sl**ty about it. They are entitled, and that doesn't change without real hard work. Most don't have it in them to change their whole nature. They don't even know it is their nature. And these are the ones who post every day about it and want to change! 

You have a week and you are already starting to feel guilty? You go down this path and you will settle. People who settle live the rest of their lives unhappy. There is a very real possibility that if you R this is the life you are condemning yourself to. We get it you love her, but love is not enough. It should be a very small part of the equation because I will guarantee you, you can love another person just as much, and the other person may be worthy. You just rug sweep, pull her to R with you like some of the posters her are suggesting and this WILL be your life. 

I don't think you should be mean but, point is, it is WAY WAY too early for you to decide or make any actions hinting that you are deciding to R. There will be people on here pushing you to that but it's way too premature. There are always going to be people who push for that. For some this is just part of the "love can conquer all" thinking that is prevalent in the idea of romantic love. They don't have to live your life, only you do. 

What you need to be asking yourself is not do you love her, or does she love you, it's can you live with your new reality if you stay with her. Plenty of people R and then wake up after all the trauma has gone and realize that they have signed up for a really bad deal. Don't be that person. 



> My wife was the most kindest, sweetest, loyal person who I thought adored me


This is how you saw your wife when you first posted here. I submit to you this was never your wife. Even if you R as best as possible this will STILL not be your wife. If you want to have these qualities in a wife you will need to find a different person. 

Right not you think back to the way it was and think I had a good marriage. This is also not true. You were married to a woman who when she got bored decided to go get a boyfriend and hold hands with him brazenly in public. Who asked YOU how she looked when she dressed up to go on dates with him. Whom, it seems like told her friends about her affair, which means she celebrated it. Who even now doesn't even do the first thing you asked her to do so you can heal, namely stay away. 

This ultimately ended up being your marriages. Sounds like you got a pretty crappy deal, and she has the nerve to tell you SHE wasn't happy. I would stop feeling guilty and start detaching, because honestly dude looking at what I just wrote do you really want to be working so hard just to go back to that? Even if she never cheats again, you will still have to wake up every day knowing this is the person you are married to. Ignore the urge to bond and detach and think about what you want. 

One last thing, NOW she is sorry. Remember if her boyfriend had left his wife she would be the one sending the papers to YOUR work. You should be decent to her, but for your own honor (she is the mother of your kids), but not for her. She was prepared to give you no quarter just two weeks ago. That speaks to her motivation now. Honestly, R shouldn't even be a thought in your mind 2 weeks out. When she finds out you are serving her and then tries to make you feel guilty ask her how she was going to inform you about the divorce she was plainly headed to. Was she going to serve YOU at work? You can be nice but she deserves no better than the mercy she was willing to show you those 6 months she was F-ng him behind your back. Remember that!


----------



## Graywolf2

Graywolf2 said:


> All along she believed that all she needed was a fair shot and she could smooth this over. To her a fair shot is to live with you and have sex.





cam42 said:


> She has said she wants to take me out to dinner on Valentine's Day if I'm okay with that. Should I even go....


She wouldn’t take no for an answer and moved back in with you. That didn’t accomplish anything because you refused to talk to her. If she takes you out to dinner you will have to talk to her. If she can talk you about old times and get you into the sack she has a chance to smooth this over.

*She has two arrows in her quiver and you haven’t been allowing her to use either one. She’s desperate to use them.*


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## Graywolf2

cam42 said:


> I was told that during the affair she enjoyed thinking of her encounters with the other man, now all she wants to do is throw up and she's absolutely disgusted.


This might be true. It’s like having a fantastic meal and getting food poisoning. I was sick as a dog with the flu years ago and my wife made microwave buttered popcorn. The smell was everywhere. I didn’t want popcorn for years and I still don’t want butter on it.


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## Graywolf2

cam42 said:


> I have asked why stay in a marriage if you're not sexually attracted to me? I was met with "*I have nothing more to lose, if I wasn't sexually attracted to you anymore I wouldn't even be trying anymore*. I love you not like a brother or roommate but as a husband, even though I don't even have the right to after what I've done to you and our family"


So let me get this straight. The security, stability and companionship you provide are not motivating her to try anymore. Seeing the kids everyday isn’t either. She has accepted the loss of those things. What's motivating her now, the reason she’s “willing to do anything” is because she thinks you’re hot. 

I thought you were best friends. You said what you would miss most was not the sex but having a best friend. I guess it’s different for her. What she said sounds great but it’s crap. If what she said is true then divorce her and give the poor girl a break every once in awhile. Stop by her place and give her some. She should be happy with that.

EDIT:


TDSC60 said:


> Some guys go through with the divorce then date their ex-wives until they decide if they are truly remorseful and are truly committed to marriage again.


That sounds great to me and she should have no problem with it given what she's saying now.


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## sokillme

bigfoot said:


> You want things to be like old times. Familiar. Comfortable. That will make you feel secure.


Old times was really being married to a woman who could ask you for your opinion of how she looked for her date with her lover. Remember that.


----------



## sokillme

Some of these posters miss the point. You don't make the decision to R with someone because of how sorry they are. You make the decision to R because you believe it is best for you. Her being sorry just gets you to the table THAT'S IT. You have a week of her being somewhat being contrite. Though she already failed test one by coming home a day later after you asked for space. But here comes the brigade pushing you to R. It's been a week. A WEEK! I truly believe she could have shot you and there would be people on here who would say if she is truly sorry you should R. 

I say DO only what will make you have a healthy happy life. It's like a year too early to know that. What she wants should really not be a motivation AT ALL! In other words, one of the, I think the BIGGEST thing you need to decide is -- will you feel you are settling for less in your life if you R. That doesn't really have anything to do with any of her actions at this point. If you feel like you are settling then that will be a cancer that will destroy your happiness. 

One other thing, there is no doubt you will heal faster if you divorce her, by the very fact that her presence won't be there to trigger you. This is a good read about that. Almost every post and this is a site notorious for pushing R.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*

Cam:

Waywards obviously say and do stupid things.

Here is one more area in which I want to urge restraint. This particular point starts and ends with you.

You have been encouraged by many here to ignore her words and watch her actions. This is sound advice.

The cynical trap we tend to fall into is not believing words when they have a chance to be positive, and believing them hook, line, and sinker when they have a chance to be negative. 

When it is the latter, we tend to believe it. Why? Confirmation bias. It confirms what we already believe about both ourselves and our waywards.

Do yourself a favor. For the immediate future, do not believe anything she says, whether positive or negative. Only believe her actions.

Also, tell her such. 

"Wife, your lies have killed any trust or credibility between us. So, for the immediate future, I am going to simply assume what you are telling me is not true. However, I will continue to watch what you do. Actions do not lie."

The other thing this will do is help keep you out of the victim chair, from where is it impossible to lead anything, let alone a reconciliation.

Stay strong, Cam.

ETA: For the record, please note that I am not pushing reconciliation, but rather giving you advice because you sound like you want it.

I personally do not know whether I could reconcile with my wife had she done what yours has.

However, please reread my posts to you. Each of them have been designed to be sound advice whether you intend to R or D. Use that as the gauge by which you measure your potential actions until you can decide for yourself which path you want.


----------



## TDSC60

Cam, things are moving pretty fast. She evidently went from dating and f*cking another married man while lying to you about it. Then continuing to trickle truth you until you met with OMW, to being disgusted with herself in less than a month. The so called disgust with herself only came after OM made it clear he wanted his marriage and not your wife. That makes this turn around in her kinda hard to believe.

Tell her that you can't believe her because of all the lies she told you about the affair and that you are having a hard time deciding if what she is saying about you and your marriage now is really true. Tell her you still feel like she make you her Plan B, her second choice if the affair did not work out in the end. 

Tell her you have filed for divorce and are still unsure about the marriage. But you intend to go through the divorce process until such time as you can think clearly and are sure of what YOU want. Tell her you can always stop the divorce at anytime if you decide to stay married.

Some guys go through with the divorce then date their ex-wives until they decide if they are truly remorseful and are truly committed to marriage again.

The Valentine's Day thing is your call. If you can just go out and have a little fun then why not. If it is going to be too much of an emotional situation - just tell her you are not ready for that.

I would tell her that you have filed and she will be served if you are are not sure about what you want yet. Tell her that just like her deciding to have sex with OM was was a decision she made for herself, that you had to file for your own self respect. But you are still undecided about the marriage and her.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

sokillme said:


> bigfoot said:
> 
> 
> 
> You want things to be like old times. Familiar. Comfortable. That will make you feel secure.
> 
> 
> 
> Old times was really being married to a woman who could ask you for your opinion of how she looked for her date with her lover. Remember that.
Click to expand...

Like I said you really need to ask her why she would do something so demeaning to you. I can only imagine what her answer would be.
I am in R, but if this would have happened to me it would have been a deal breaker.


----------



## Taxman

You will have your answers fairly shortly; when she is served, you will get-why are you doing this to me? I'm REALLY TRYING. At that point unload and be absolutely brutal, this is your payback sir: You asked my opinion about how you looked before you let him ***k you? You rubbed my nose in it, WHEN I WAS THE INNOCENT PARTY! Now here is the payback. You have a nice time because everyone in this whole god-forsaken town is going to know all about that well used vajayjay of yours! Think of going to the supermarket and the bank, everyone is going to ask why you are so goddamned easy to put out. Yup, your new name is CAM's well used *****.


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## eric1

That sounds awesome and all but I've always found that they "What did you think would happen when you started dating someone else while married to me?" is the most effective.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



farsidejunky said:


> Cam:
> 
> 
> 
> Do yourself a favor. For the immediate future, do not believe anything she says, whether positive or negative. Only believe her actions.
> 
> Also, tell her such.


Take it a step further. Be objective! Individuals that are in a desperate state will say things to prevent loss, among other things. Often, we need to see through that for the reality behind it. "I'll do anything" doesn't mean that. I would never advise to never believe words, but to see the reality behind them.




> "Wife, your lies have killed any trust or credibility between us. So, for the immediate future, I am going to simply assume what you are telling me is not true. However, I will continue to watch what you do. Actions do not lie."


I completely disagree with this. It is much better to take it on a case-by-case basis. A spouse that is trying to reconcile can't operate from the standpoint of perpetually having to prove themselves. It is unrealistic and is not part of any plan for reconciling from infidelity. By definition, your advice is using the fundamental attribution error.




> ETA: For the record, please note that I am not pushing reconciliation, but rather giving you advice because you sound like you want it.
> 
> I personally do not know whether I could reconcile with my wife had she done what yours has.
> 
> However, please reread my posts to you. Each of them have been designed to be sound advice whether you intend to R or D. Use that as the gauge by which you measure your potential actions until you can decide for yourself which path you want.


Reconciliation is one path. Divorce is another path. We don't operate from one model for two different paths. To attempt reconciliation requires one model and it assumes that there may or may not be success. We have to be adaptive and solution-oriented and not indirect or passive-aggressive. Reconciliation always requires time and effort from the betrayed, as well. 

A reconciliation plan attempts to get H and W to talk to each other as soon as possible. Trust needs to begin to reform. However, through the attempts to test the waters, it may not.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*

I understand the previous items you challenged from my post were a difference of opinion. I understand we all have different approaches, and this is what makes the boards interesting.

That said, lets look at the below statement:



Relationship Teacher said:


> Reconciliation is one path. Divorce is another path. We don't operate from one model for two different paths. To attempt reconciliation requires one model and it assumes that there may or may not be success. We have to be adaptive and solution-oriented and not indirect or passive-aggressive. Reconciliation always requires time and effort from the betrayed, as well.


Both models (divorce or reconciliation) will share some commonality, such as:

*Self improvement
*Watching actions instead of words
*Space to heal
*No rug sweeping

I would argue that the aforementioned actions can and should be taken in either case. Cam is on one path that will eventually lead to a fork, which is when he chooses his direction. Until that fork definitely arrives, only actions conducive to both potential forks should be considered.

Then again, this is my model, forged from my total lack of experience or credentials, and my going rates reflect such. 

Take my advice for what it is worth: free (or a more cynical view: nothing).


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## Relationship Teacher

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



farsidejunky said:


> I understand the previous items you challenged from my post were a difference of opinion. I understand we all have different approaches, and this is what makes the boards interesting.
> :wink2:


That said, lets look at the below statement:




> Both models (divorce or reconciliation) will share some commonality, such as:
> 
> *Self improvement
> *Watching actions instead of words
> *Space to heal
> *No rug sweeping


I would expand what you said to apply to all aspects of a relationship. Good point.



> I would argue that the aforementioned actions can and should be taken in either case. Cam is on one path that will eventually lead to a fork, which is when he chooses his direction. Until that fork definitely arrives, only actions conducive to both potential forks should be considered.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then again, this is my model, forged from my total lack of experience or credentials, and my going rates reflect such.
> 
> Take my advice for what it is worth: free (or a more cynical view: nothing).


The reason I argued against your specific advice is because of what tends to be the reality of reconciliation after an affair. Much of the proffered advice makes sense, but we have to consider the positive and negative externalities that flow from it. My ultimate point is that this is a test that the wife is almost guaranteed to fail. I love you mentioning watching actions instead of words, but disagree that we hold words to be "null" for some arbitrary amount of time.


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## straightshooter

Cam,

We all have different opinions as to what the most disrespectful and hurtful thing they did was. For some it is the marital bed, for some it is the lies not the sex, and for some it is other things. For the most part, her behavior was textbook cheating wife, EXCEPT for asking you how she looked when she AND her girlfriends knew exactly what and where she was going. I would bet had you been trying to reach her some one in her group would have covered for her. 
You have been at this a month, and like you were told, her "remorse" did not begin until her boyfriend made the choice to dump her. She did not keep no contact, and do you really believe had he wanted to that she would not have taken this thing way underground. look YOURSELF in the mirror and ask yourself that question.

She is disgusted that she got "played" and dumped. Not because she hurt you or what she did. no one posting to you has stated that they believe you have a totally remorseful wife. She confessed NOTHING until she had to.

As far as Valentines Day, I truly find it hard to believe you have any desire to sit across the table and gaze lovingly into the eyes of a woman who 30 days ago was looking forward to her next sex romp with her boyfriend. most of us felt the same about anniversaries and birthdays for quite some time. it is all an attempt at sexual manipulation, and your even waffling is a weak response. 

You may not wind up divorced if at some point you can not feel disgust at what she has done. That does not normally go away just because they move back in.

You owe her NOTHING as far as how you serve her. For heavens sake, how does that image of her parading out to **** him not flash in your head when you even have the thought of worry about her reaction. 

I am once again going to remind you that you have caught just about every break in the book
(1) someone else catching her and telling you
(2) a totally helpful OBS who gave you the truth that many struggle months and years to get. You got it in weeks
(3) an OM who is crawling and trying to save his ass
(4) her not around him at work 8-10 hours a day

Until you sign the final D papers you are still married but she is on the edge of the cliff. Cancel that and then you have let her off the hook as far as accountability and proving over time that her actions are what they should be.

These forums are littered with BH who jumped at the first bone of R too quickly and deeply regret it. Don't make that mistake.


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## Taxman

I believe the actions taken by another poster were the most effective: 
Lonely Husband had the divorce papers drawn up, he left them on a desk in plain sight. His Wayward Wife knew what she needed to do in order to avoid the sentence being carried out. I believe, that CAM's wife has it in her to do the heavy lifting, and she will have to do so. The divorce papers provide incentive. He will have his answers when she has been served. What comes out of her mouth in the 24-48 hours after service should tell the tale.


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## sokillme

TDSC60 said:


> Cam, things are moving pretty fast. She evidently went from dating and f*cking another married man while lying to you about it. Then continuing to trickle truth you until you met with OMW, to being disgusted with herself in less than a month. The so called disgust with herself only came after OM made it clear he wanted his marriage and not your wife. That makes this turn around in her kinda hard to believe.
> 
> Tell her that you can't believe her because of all the lies she told you about the affair and that you are having a hard time deciding if what she is saying about you and your marriage now is really true. Tell her you still feel like she make you her Plan B, her second choice if the affair did not work out in the end.
> 
> Tell her you have filed for divorce and are still unsure about the marriage. But you intend to go through the divorce process until such time as you can think clearly and are sure of what YOU want. Tell her you can always stop the divorce at anytime if you decide to stay married.
> 
> Some guys go through with the divorce then date their ex-wives until they decide if they are truly remorseful and are truly committed to marriage again.
> 
> The Valentine's Day thing is your call. If you can just go out and have a little fun then why not. If it is going to be too much of an emotional situation - just tell her you are not ready for that.
> 
> I would tell her that you have filed and she will be served if you are are not sure about what you want yet. Tell her that just like her deciding to have sex with OM was was a decision she made for herself, that you had to file for your own self respect. But you are still undecided about the marriage and her.


I like the action but not the words. I think you shouldn't talk about self-respect and you being her plan B, or stopping the divorce. Don't give away your power like that. Don't give her the satisfaction of calling yourself her plan B. Don't disrespect your value that way. Don't even acknowledge that she is sacrificing, she is not and that way of thinking is a lie. If any of you are a BS and feel like this don't believe it! She is lucky to have anyone with character again, after what she has become. No one, and I mean no one, would want to have a relationship with a WS if I told you their cheating on you would be the eventual outcome. They are always your plan B, and not the other way around. You are the one who has the value in a committed relationship. You are a faithful spouse, that is what everyone wants. An unfaithful spouse is worthless in a committed relationship. On a side note BS would be wise to remember that. I hate that lie about plan B! It's pure Bullsh*t.

What you should say is "having a wife who cheated on me would always have been a plan B life for me. Why should I settle for that? What can you offer me now that in the end doesn't mean I have to wake up every morning next to a person who got dressed up to go out with her lover and asked me how she looked. What kind of person does that, and gives the excuse because they are bored? Why would I want to be married to a person like that? Would you want to married to a person like that? I know you think little of me because of how you treated me but do you think so little of me that you would think I would just accept this because you are sorry now? You are going to have to do better than that. I am a good catch, I am the one who was loyal. I have honor, you can't say that. Why should I value it so little? I value my fidelity to you more than you did to me, but there are women out there who will. Women who will be attracted to my honor. You threw it away. Why should I not just go and find them."

Put it back on her. Let her know what she is at this point, she is the plan B [NOT YOU]. If you are going to R at least start the R from a position of power.


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## sokillme

Again, the Valentine's day request is like a spotlight on the fact that she doesn't get it. Which points to a much deeper character flaw. One that makes her emotionally dangerous. Remember they can do this and sleep like a baby, where you or I would be vomiting. Because of that even when they are faithful it is done out of following rules not out of visceral repulsion to hurting another human being in such a way. You are much safer with a spouse who doesn't hurt you because they would never treat a human being that way because they have empathy. Lots of reformed cheaters don't cheat again because they know it's against the rules, or it blew up their life. The fear is they will once again start to think maybe next time it won't. 

A safe spouse would be ashamed to ask for a Valentine's date after just blowing up a marriage and her family. But then a safe spouse wouldn't have done it in the first place. It's two different types of people and the safe ones are out there.


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## sokillme

Taxman said:


> I believe, that CAM's wife has it in her to do the heavy lifting


What do you base that on exactly?


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## Taxman

I find that most people have it in them to do what is necessary to repair relationships. She appears motivated, and it appears as if the fog has cleared. What is missing from the entire equation is consequences and justice. This is where CAM will either find he needs to divorce or reconcile, based on her reaction to the stress of being outed to everyone and the stress of a divorce being served.


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## Doyle

Lets put the shoe on the other foot Cam she caught YOU cheating a few days later you invite her to a romantic valentines night meal.

How do you feel the response would go.


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## sokillme

Taxman said:


> I find that most people have it in them to do what is necessary to repair relationships. She appears motivated, and it appears as if the fog has cleared. What is missing from the entire equation is consequences and justice. This is where CAM will either find he needs to divorce or reconcile, based on her reaction to the stress of being outed to everyone and the stress of a divorce being served.


Plenty of people cheat again. SI is littered with them, ones who were committed in the first week or two after they got caught. Besides all that she could do all that, there could be consequences and justice and in the end he may just decided he can do better. There is nothing wrong with that choice. I mean it doesn't take much to do better than what she did to him. Like just be decent and you are already better.


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## Taxman

I would like to hear CAM's wife's response to the thought of him cheating on her and rubbing her nose in it. I know that was my wife's response. Point blank, how would I feel if she went with someone else? I did not like it one bit, but since I served her a sh!t sandwich, she went and made one Sh!t sandwich deluxe for me. She was absolutely deliberate and emotionless. This was a punishment and in her mind, justice.


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## sokillme

sokillme said:


> Plenty of people cheat again. SI is littered with them, ones who were committed in the first week or two after they got caught. Besides all that she could do all that, there could be consequences and justice and in the end he may just decided he can do better. There is nothing wrong with that choice. I mean it doesn't take much to do better than what she did to him. Like just be decent and you are already better.


like clockwork a post that illustrates my point. These people are broken. This woman wasted this man's whole romantic life. They are just not worth it.


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## curious234

Cam, I think it is better to show some sort of compassion (may be not the proper word) and go out with her and also to tell her about the D filling. That way you may also feel less unsettled. This will not take anything away from whatever you want to do and she will feel obligated if you eventually reconcile. I think you are in a mind set now that cannot be subjected to confusion. You said in your opening post she had feeling for the OM. How deep it is. Do you think if it had continued she would have left you for him?


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## lovelygirl

cam42 said:


> She's not acting hostile in anyway. I think she's very scared and worried. I have noticed she's purchased multiple affair books off Amazon and she reads it throughout the day. About the roommate thing.... I have asked why stay in a marriage if you're not sexually attracted to me? I was met with *"I have nothing more to lose, if I wasn't sexually attracted to you anymore I wouldn't even be trying anymore. I love you not like a brother or roommate but as a husband,* even though I don't even have the right to after what I've done to you and our family" I was told that during the affair she enjoyed thinking of her encounters with the other man, now all she wants to do is throw up and she's absolutely disgusted.
> 
> She spends all her time researching about all of this to the point where I think it's getting unhealthy. I should be happy about it, but I just feel upset. She has said she wants to take me out to dinner on Valentine's Day if I'm okay with that. Should I even go.... I mean I have just filed for divorce and all without her knowledge. I am also starting to feel guilty about not letting her know. I think now she's starting to see what she did, but I can't let these actions determine our future yet. I love her but I can't decide right now.


Oh really??
So why did she sleep with OM if she saw you as a husband??

Can't you realize that her statements are contradictory? 
So, according to her, *she has lost everything in this marriage...*(as she has already got NOTHING to lose ANYMORE)..except for the fact that she still sees you _as a a bit of a _husband. [Not even as a lover anymore, I'm sure. Instead, she sees you has a husband who pampers her and gives her security. That's it.]

Also, don't go out for V-day. It's like she's trying to win you over within the night. She needs to realize that her affair has consequences and it can't be over with just one V-night or hot-sex night. (Obviously, if you don't let her walk all over you again...). 

But sadly I see you are vulnerable to believe most of the things she says....


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## naperken

Cam,

As a guy who's been exactly in those same shoes (twice, different wives), I completely get it. I will go full disclosure by stating I do not stand with the Industrial Reconciliation Complex. That said, I do believe that any life-changing decision must be made from an emotionally centered and objective place... you're not there yet, brother.

It is absolutely okay to say "I don't know." Do not let anyone pressure you, let alone yourself, into committing to a direction. And for the record, I am NOT saying to suspend divorce proceedings. Keep that ball rolling as nothing is final until the 'Prove Up' and the Judge signs off.

You're already getting excellent advise, the best being "Go by what they do, not what they say"

My late input to this tragedy is that you need to take a moment and check yourself on your motives behind the 'secret filing'. If this had a high probability of going 'high conflict', then by all means aggressive action is warranted, but I don't get the sense this is the case. This feels more like I want to punish and embarrass her, as she did to me... Ask yourself if there's any truth to this. If so, this is a soul damaging path that you're choosing... both for you and your kids.

You do what must be done, because it's in your best interest AND in the best interest of your kids. Ugliness begets ugliness and pretty soon your kids have become weaponized and collateral damage... don't go there. Take the high road, be measured in your response, do what must be done, and hold on to your integrity. Integrity is the one thing that can not be taken from you... it is knowing who you are, knowing what you want, owning how you get it and being congruent in all those things. Brene Brown calls it 'Minding The Gap'. Actions must match intentions.

My wise old therapist, who helped me get through my ex's betrayal and the resulting divorce, often told me "Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?"


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## drifting on

Cam

I am not advocating for reconciliation, I've said she isn't ready yet. She is ready for tough questioning, and perhaps that needs to be done on Valentine's Day. Your wife isn't remorseful yet, she's regretful, and with her comment of nothing to lose, well that needs to be investigated by you. What I'm saying is, from my vantage point it comes across to me as she is moping about like a victim. Sort of like, I lost my affair partner, I've lost my husband, I've lost my kids, oh woe is me. If she is doing this then serve her at work, strictly for shock treatment to get her out of her poor me crap. If she is genuine, then reconsider serving her at work. Only you know what way she is, genuine or poor me.

You need to ask her about the how do I look as she knew she was going to meet OM. Ask her what she would feel if you did that? Could she move past that? Ask her if she ever tried to stop the affair? Not thought of, but actually tried to stop. If not, why? Next ask her what she would feel if you had an affair and you did because you felt like roommates. I believe this was said strictly to rationalize her affair, not that your marriage was this way. Next, perhaps you can contact OMW, have her call your wife's phone from OM's phone at a time you will be together. If she answers or says nothing this shows she still wants him. Information that would be good for both you and OMW to know. 

Ask her how many times they had sex. Did she think of you ever? Did she think about her kids? Did she think if everyone knew what would they think of her? Will she take a polygraph? Just because, it's for shock. Ask about the paternity of the kids, again, for shock. Then ask her one final question, why should I stay married to you? This question hurts bad, my wife cried so hard I actually began to think you could die from crying. This question hits them in their soul, and while some may say it's mean, it's actually her self reflecting to see any qualities in herself. 

I've said before your talks will be raw and difficult. This isn't punishing her but rather you getting truth. It's a hard road either way Cam, and difficult situations are what you will be having for the next month. I wish I could tell you differently, but I can't lie to you either.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

I


Taxman said:


> I would like to hear CAM's wife's response to the thought of him cheating on her and rubbing her nose in it. I know that was my wife's response. Point blank, how would I feel if she went with someone else? I did not like it one bit, but since I served her a sh!t sandwich, she went and made one Sh!t sandwich deluxe for me. She was absolutely deliberate and emotionless. This was a punishment and in her mind, justice.



Absolutely a good question to ask. Cam, she has to hit rock bottom and atone. She needs to apologize to your mom and dad, your close friends. Have you told her mother about her asking you how she looked? I bet her mom would be real proud of her. 
I made my FWW pay and left her twisting in the wind for six weeks. Left my petition for divorce and other related paperwork out on my desk in our study in plain sight. Right now you need to consider the advice you have been provided. @Movingfwrd went through something similar to you, you may want to PM him.

Drifting On has given you some of the best advice I have ever seen on this site. Take it to heart. She is no where. Near remorseful in my opinion based on your posts.


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## sokillme

drifting on said:


> Cam
> 
> I am not advocating for reconciliation, I've said she isn't ready yet. She is ready for tough questioning, and perhaps that needs to be done on Valentine's Day. Your wife isn't remorseful yet, she's regretful, and with her comment of nothing to lose, well that needs to be investigated by you. What I'm saying is, from my vantage point it comes across to me as she is moping about like a victim. Sort of like, I lost my affair partner, I've lost my husband, I've lost my kids, oh woe is me. If she is doing this then serve her at work, strictly for shock treatment to get her out of her poor me crap. If she is genuine, then reconsider serving her at work. Only you know what way she is, genuine or poor me.
> 
> You need to ask her about the how do I look as she knew she was going to meet OM. Ask her what she would feel if you did that? Could she move past that? Ask her if she ever tried to stop the affair? Not thought of, but actually tried to stop. If not, why? Next ask her what she would feel if you had an affair and you did because you felt like roommates. I believe this was said strictly to rationalize her affair, not that your marriage was this way. Next, perhaps you can contact OMW, have her call your wife's phone from OM's phone at a time you will be together. If she answers or says nothing this shows she still wants him. Information that would be good for both you and OMW to know.
> 
> Ask her how many times they had sex. Did she think of you ever? Did she think about her kids? Did she think if everyone knew what would they think of her? Will she take a polygraph? Just because, it's for shock. Ask about the paternity of the kids, again, for shock. Then ask her one final question, why should I stay married to you? This question hurts bad, my wife cried so hard I actually began to think you could die from crying. This question hits them in their soul, and while some may say it's mean, it's actually her self reflecting to see any qualities in herself.
> 
> I've said before your talks will be raw and difficult. This isn't punishing her but rather you getting truth. It's a hard road either way Cam, and difficult situations are what you will be having for the next month. I wish I could tell you differently, but I can't lie to you either.



She is just going to lie. What is the point of asking her any of this stuff. She will do what they all do minimize and lie. You should just assume the worst because it is probably closer to the truth. You can tell she didn't think about OP and all that stuff by her actions. No need to ask.

Also they have years of crying to get the heat of themselves. So crying doesn't mean much. The only thing that counts is actions.


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## NoChoice

OP,
I believe it would be prudent to consider the possibility that what some here are doing is assigning cognizant traits to your WW that she simply is not capable of. They are projecting their thoughts and rationalizations onto her. Her mind is not that developed. The question has been asked "what were you thinking was going to happen" and the simple answer is she was not. She was a child looking for attention and fun, nothing more. She did not consider the ramifications of her actions anywhere near as deeply as some here give her credit for doing. Instead of cold and calculating I see someone lacking in intellect and therefore exhibiting reckless, self destructive behavior.

I do not believe that she ever truly did see you as "plan b" but rather never thought it out that far. She was fulfilling a desire as does a child when they forgo dinner in favor of cookies and candy. If the child had sufficient intellect they would recognize the need for the nutrition that a good dinner would provide but, with their limited intellect, they choose the candy even to their own detriment. You will never know "why" she did this because your cognitive ability will never allow you to understand it. Your mind ascribes characteristics and traits and consequences to your actions in a way her mind is not capable of therefore any attempt for you to know why is futile.

The real question you must ask yourself, if you truly want to R, is can she change, not will she change but rather CAN she. It is the answer to this question that will ultimately provide you with the truth as to whether you can R with her. Thus far, based solely on your limited accounting of the events, she has not exhibited a level of thoughtful consideration that would indicate she is capable of change. Her words are irrelevant but her actions are very telling and it is therefore her actions that you must closely observe. If you do not see physical evidence of her ability to change then all of her verbal proclamations are worthless.

You mentioned she seems fearful and I posit that she is. Her mind could not even project the consequence of her betrayal much less a future life without you and her family. She is most likely terrified, inasmuch as she is capable of same. I do fully understand your desire to show her consequences but I would ask you to consider this. Having her served in an ostentatious display would serve what purpose exactly? Again, you are projecting HER possible reaction based on YOUR thought process but I can assure you that she will respond based on HER ability to understand and process the event. Likewise with Valentine's day dinner. For someone to treat you in such a way would evoke certain feelings but they will not be the same feelings that she will experience. I know the desire to go "scorched earth" is tempting but will it serve your purposes in the fullest extent possible?

What I am trying to explain is that people like your W, and mine, think on a different level and therefore act and react differently than we would. What you feel would cause you severe pain in any given situation would most probably not have the same effect on her. Your real battle comes in trying to understand and come to grips with this reality. In her limited intellect the world is perceived much differently than in yours and you must come to the decision of whether or not you can accept that and the risks associated with it.

Some on here have accused me of giving waywards a "free pass" or "letting them off the hook" by explaining their condition but it is actually quite the contrary. If this were something as simple as making a different choice then R would be easy because all the wayward would have to do is decide not to cheat any more. Sadly it is not simple. If they possessed the cognizance to fully comprehend, process, extrapolate and project then they would have never cheated initially. This is what makes your part in this so complicated as you try to decide to R or not.

What I am saying is not that you should excuse your WW's behavior but rather accept it for what it is and then decide if that is something you can live with going forward. There are basically two categories into which cheaters fall and they are repentant and non repentant. The repentant cheater is akin to a disobedient child who, either on their own or upon being chastised, has enough cognizance to see what they did as wrong, how much pain it caused their parents and the benefits, to both them and their parents, of never repeating that behavior. They have empathy, albeit limited and at least a basic understanding of the wrong they committed and therefore can modify their behavior going forward. This type of cheater is very rare indeed.

The non repentant cheater, of which there are two classes, has no such comprehension. They see being caught and the ensuing "punishment" as the problem, not their behavior. A few openly move forward with their debauchery with no regard for spouse, children, family or any other consideration. They are easily recognized and offer no hope for R. These also are somewhat rare but much less so than the repentant cheater.

The second class is more insidious. They, like a spoiled child, feign remorse in an effort to manipulate their BS into believing that they are truly contrite and deeply sorrowful for their actions when, in fact, they are not. They are only sorry that they were discovered. This is by far the category into which most cheaters fall. Your task becomes to determine which your WW is. Regardless the type you may simply not be able to overcome the sense of betrayal and deceit and therefore R may not be possible but in any event true R is only possible with a repentant cheater. The two classes of non repentant cheater are destined to cheat again and again until they either become repentant, which is nigh unto impossible, or they become so undesirable that no one will have them.

In this forum there are a select few that fall into the first category. A poster named Losinghim, one named Affaircare and the poster Drifting On's wife are the only ones I can think of off hand. It is a very small number indeed. Your task now is to determine which category your W falls into for it is not until you do that you can make any kind of attempt at R. And be warned that the non repentant cheater can be very manipulative, coercive and appear very genuine. You must allow yourself the time to ascertain the truth if you want any chance at happiness in R.

If your WW is truly repentant there will be little regard in her thoughts about herself as she focuses her energy on you and your healing. If her actions show less regard for you and are more about "her" then I would be very hesitant about considering R. Yours will not be an easy path with a repentant cheater but it will be ultimately futile with a non repentant one. I wish you good fortune.


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## drifting on

sokillme said:


> She is just going to lie. What is the point of asking her any of this stuff. She will do what they all do minimize and lie. You should just assume the worst because it is probably closer to the truth. You can tell she didn't think about OP and all that stuff by her actions. No need to ask.
> 
> Also they have years of crying to get the heat of themselves. So crying doesn't mean much. The only thing that counts is actions.




I believe Cam does need to ask these questions, regardless if she lies or not. Notice I didn't say anything to what her response would be or should be, you ask to drive home how vicious her actions were. When you ask such raw questions you are bringing to light what they never once thought of. Cam will see her wince or cringe when he asks, he will need to watch her body language. Unless she is emotionless she will first start by tightening her muscles. Then later wince or cringe, soon after she will be a crying mess and I can assure you Cam will get scared for her safety. But you need to keep questioning, keep the pressure on, but not in a mean way. After Cam asks her within two days remorse will begin. 

Remorse will begin because no matter what Camhad done in the marriage, she will know he didn't deserve this. She will be a different person, and if she wants reconciliation you will start to see it here. Her answers, they mean nothing unless Cam can verify the truth. Until then he should assume that every word that gets past her lips is most likely only partial truth at best. 

I wasn't easy on my wife, I asked many difficult questions. As she answered I was thinking two questions ahead, I never really even heard her answer, but my questions rocked her to her core. It was the first time she truly began to realize just what exactly she had done. This started her self reflection, she didn't believe she was so vicious, but after a few hours she couldn't rationalize anything to herself. She called herself names, said she was absolutely appalled by what she did, and felt that she shouldn't even be alive. Many here may agree, many may disagree, but the truth of the matter was to get her to self reflect. 

In Cams case I don't know if she could ever think as far ahead as she should have. I think NoChoice is spot on with his post just before mine. She wasn't capable of many things that seem obvious to us, instead her mind was that of a child. The consequences or ramifications to her actions were not cognizant to her. She was purely caught up in her own selfish desires that she thought would never be found out. Now they are and she is acting like a scared child, afraid to leave the family and Cams side as she fears they will turn their backs on her. She has also asked Cam to go out for dinner on Valentine's Day, because she still doesn't see what she fully did. To her a night out and maybe a romp when they get home is the step to healing. Only it's not, it will take communication, and that is just to get the ball rolling in the right direction. It will take much more after that.


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## TaDor

Agreed on dating on V night. BTDT.
And I think NoChoice is spot on.

My WW admitted she wasn't thinking at all. It was just her and the fantasy. 
Reality is kids, divorce, etc.

I was warned about false R as well.

If she wants to do R and you want to do it. It's going to be communications first.
Don't stop the D process anytime soon.


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## stillthinking

When you are feeling guilty just re-read Your previous post:



> There's a night in particular that I'm sure she had a night with her boyfriend. Day before New Year's Eve she was dolled up with a dress and heels and said she was going out with her girlfriends. She came come later than she said she would and showered right afterwards with her hair all messed up. I asked about that night to the other mans wife and she confirmed over the phone.
> 
> That sounds so pathetic, she even asked me how she looked before she went to go **** the other guy.


Still feeling "guilty" after that? I hope not.




> One last thing, NOW she is sorry. Remember if her boyfriend had left his wife she would be the one sending the papers to YOUR work. You should be decent to her, but for your own honor (she is the mother of your kids), but not for her. She was prepared to give you no quarter just two weeks ago. That speaks to her motivation now. Honestly, R shouldn't even be a thought in your mind 2 weeks out. When she finds out you are serving her and then tries to make you feel guilty ask her how she was going to inform you about the divorce she was plainly headed to. Was she going to serve YOU at work? You can be nice but she deserves no better than the mercy she was willing to show you those 6 months she was F-ng him behind your back. Remember that!


This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You must fight the innate desire to rescue her. To minimize what she did. To spare her the consequences for her actions. As has been stated before, she fired you from the husband role. 

Who goes to a job they were fired from and continues to work for free?

Say the course and stay strong. You are fighting for your own self respect. And it is that self respect that you will carry for the rest of your life, divorce or reconcile.


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## sokillme

drifting on said:


> I believe Cam does need to ask these questions, regardless if she lies or not. Notice I didn't say anything to what her response would be or should be, you ask to drive home how vicious her actions were. When you ask such raw questions you are bringing to light what they never once thought of. Cam will see her wince or cringe when he asks, he will need to watch her body language. Unless she is emotionless she will first start by tightening her muscles. Then later wince or cringe, soon after she will be a crying mess and I can assure you Cam will get scared for her safety. But you need to keep questioning, keep the pressure on, but not in a mean way. After Cam asks her within two days remorse will begin.
> 
> Remorse will begin because no matter what Camhad done in the marriage, she will know he didn't deserve this. She will be a different person, and if she wants reconciliation you will start to see it here. Her answers, they mean nothing unless Cam can verify the truth. Until then he should assume that every word that gets past her lips is most likely only partial truth at best.
> 
> I wasn't easy on my wife, I asked many difficult questions. As she answered I was thinking two questions ahead, I never really even heard her answer, but my questions rocked her to her core. It was the first time she truly began to realize just what exactly she had done. This started her self reflection, she didn't believe she was so vicious, but after a few hours she couldn't rationalize anything to herself. She called herself names, said she was absolutely appalled by what she did, and felt that she shouldn't even be alive. Many here may agree, many may disagree, but the truth of the matter was to get her to self reflect.
> 
> In Cams case I don't know if she could ever think as far ahead as she should have. I think NoChoice is spot on with his post just before mine. She wasn't capable of many things that seem obvious to us, instead her mind was that of a child. The consequences or ramifications to her actions were not cognizant to her. She was purely caught up in her own selfish desires that she thought would never be found out. Now they are and she is acting like a scared child, afraid to leave the family and Cams side as she fears they will turn their backs on her. She has also asked Cam to go out for dinner on Valentine's Day, because she still doesn't see what she fully did. To her a night out and maybe a romp when they get home is the step to healing. Only it's not, it will take communication, and that is just to get the ball rolling in the right direction. It will take much more after that.


You are lucky (if you can call it that) in that your wife was probably remorseful. Lots of them aren't, not really they are just looking for the out that gets them the best deal the most expediently. A lot of these WS have personality disorders and are good a faking it, because they have been faking it their whole life. This is why so many of them after a while resort back to their old ways. 

It's dangerous to assume that she has child like thinking. It gives them a very big out to hid under. She certainly was thinking ahead enough to keep it a secret and lie about it over and over. When you say they are not thinking ahead you completely rugsweep the months of lies, hiding, planning clandestine meetings. And these were not just one off lies, they are whole elaborate sets of lies that build off each other. You can do all that and then not have any idea the what you are doing isn't going to cause grave damage. It doesn't work that way. You have to be motivated to do all that scheming. 

This whole idea that a WS was an innocent child who stuck her finger into a light socket is really a dangerous mindset for a BS to be in. It's too easier to believe it because it plays right along with how a husband wants to think of his virtuous wife. (Now I see she was just to innocent to understand the damage she was doing). And it gives the WS way to much of a pass. But it's bullsh*t. It's just not honest about what really happened. Better to have clarity even if it's painful. When you think about it logically, no human being over the age of 10 is that stupid. And if you are saying it's because she is not emotionally capable of understanding betrayal, then that is even a more reason to be very weary of her. This shows very serious personality disorder which will take years to fix. 

Most of these people have very devious minds and know exactly what they are doing. Also you say "Remorse will begin because no matter what Cam had done in the marriage, she will know he didn't deserve this." There is no guarantee there will be any real remorse. Remember they are good at faking it. They are actors. Cam should be very cautious. 

He can ask the questions, but he should assume she is going to do everything to minimize the damage. Why would she tell the truth now? His best course of action is to detach. Interrogating her doesn't do that, if anything it just brings him more into the emotional turmoil. Right now he needs to separate emotionally from her so he can make a clear headed decision about the rest of his life. Asking a bunch of questions doesn't do that I just brings him more into the drama. It becomes another twisted bonding exercise. He needs to be looking at the drama from a clear vantage point away from the battle, there will be time for questions after he has made his choice.

Honestly I have to say all you who are pushing for R so soon, are encouraging him to follow the pattern that we see over and over where the BS is desperate to R at the expense of his own peace of mind. Later they hate what they agreed to. He has some leverage right now, he should not give that away so easily. The man has made a wise decision to detach. Encourage him to do that.


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## Evinrude58

I agree. Detaching is the only wise course here. If you are able to move forward and still want to r concise in the future with your liar, then you'll be in a better place to do it mentally.


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## sokillme

stillthinking said:


> You must fight the innate desire to rescue her. To minimize what she did. To spare her the consequences for her actions.


Exactly and this idea that a WS is innocent and in need of rescue because they are like children is just the pervasive idea to help you do that. But it's also a great pile of sand to build your rug sweeping house on. Again better to see her for what she is, an adult women who was adult enough to make a vow to you and then traded you in for some complements and tawdry sex. Because she was bored.


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## manfromlamancha

Taxman said:


> I would like to hear CAM's wife's response to the thought of him cheating on her and rubbing her nose in it. I know that was my wife's response. Point blank, how would I feel if she went with someone else? I did not like it one bit, but since I served her a sh!t sandwich, she went and made one Sh!t sandwich deluxe for me. She was absolutely deliberate and emotionless. This was a punishment and in her mind, justice.


Not meaning to threadjack but are you saying that you had an affair and then your wife had a revenge affair to teach you a lesson ?


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## NoChoice

drifting on said:


> Cam
> 
> I am not advocating for reconciliation, I've said she isn't ready yet. She is ready for tough questioning, and perhaps that needs to be done on Valentine's Day. Your wife isn't remorseful yet, she's regretful, and with her comment of nothing to lose, well that needs to be investigated by you. What I'm saying is, from my vantage point it comes across to me as she is moping about like a victim. Sort of like, I lost my affair partner, I've lost my husband, I've lost my kids, oh woe is me. If she is doing this then serve her at work, strictly for shock treatment to get her out of her poor me crap. If she is genuine, then reconsider serving her at work. Only you know what way she is, genuine or poor me.
> 
> You need to ask her about the how do I look as she knew she was going to meet OM. Ask her what she would feel if you did that? Could she move past that? Ask her if she ever tried to stop the affair? Not thought of, but actually tried to stop. If not, why? Next ask her what she would feel if you had an affair and you did because you felt like roommates. I believe this was said strictly to rationalize her affair, not that your marriage was this way. Next, perhaps you can contact OMW, have her call your wife's phone from OM's phone at a time you will be together. If she answers or says nothing this shows she still wants him. Information that would be good for both you and OMW to know.
> 
> Ask her how many times they had sex. Did she think of you ever? Did she think about her kids? Did she think if everyone knew what would they think of her? Will she take a polygraph? Just because, it's for shock. Ask about the paternity of the kids, again, for shock. Then ask her one final question, why should I stay married to you? This question hurts bad, my wife cried so hard I actually began to think you could die from crying. This question hits them in their soul, and while some may say it's mean, it's actually her self reflecting to see any qualities in herself.
> 
> I've said before your talks will be raw and difficult. This isn't punishing her but rather you getting truth. It's a hard road either way Cam, and difficult situations are what you will be having for the next month. I wish I could tell you differently, but I can't lie to you either.


The above is a good tool to help in your assessment of her true character.

As I predicted, some are proclaiming the dangers of assigning to your wife a childlike mentality but in reality it is she, not I, that has ascribed that mentality to her by her actions and the real danger is not recognizing it. It is illogical to assume that she purposefully and with intent decided to destroy her family, damage her children, crush her H and become known as "the cheater". What cunning, intelligent, thoughtful person would do that? Have you OP? Understanding her limited mindset is crucial to you making your decision to R.

As DO explained, his wife began to see the horrific nature of her actions only after he questioned her and brought it to light in her mind in a way she could comprehend. In the same way that a parent points out to their child the error that the child could not see. Also, the same poster that says it is dangerous to ascribe a childlike mindset to your WW is the same poster that described her as a child and her behavior as childish just a few pages back. Consider this carefully as it is fundamental regarding the possibility of any successful R.


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## TaDor

Cam42 - you are only a month past D-Day. Your wife's affair was over 6 months long (I know it was stated EA - and I don't remember if more was discovered, but far likely PA). And it didn't "end" until you found out...

I too, thought R was possible 4 weeks later. She was still in limbo and was all over the place with her emotions.

Should you two have a sit down, yes. A date? NO. I feel that you will want SO MUCH, your wife - as did I, that you'll take whatever you can get.

When my WW asked about R, it was about 5+ months after D-Day and it was only about a 2 month affair before D-Day.
We didn't date at first. We first had a NO FIGHT, talk about things. "Did we both want to try?" I told her it would be hard. It would require work on both of us, but more on her.
She had to prove herself - with actions. She had to be open about everything, all questions (some did hurt), open her electronics and passwords - which she did and I still have access.
And we would start dating AND go to MC then see how things would go over 3+ months.

So, I would say... DO NOT go out on Valentines night. It's too symbolic. Schedule another day.
Stopping the D as a requirement for R shouldn't be an option.
IMHO, if she wants to prove herself... she should forgo any demands from the D... give you everything for wronging you and the kids.
Going to MC is a requirement. Expect at least 4~6 months or more of weekly meetings. Along with dating.

Have either of you read the book "Not just friends" by Shirly Glass? That is a requirement by my standards. If 400 pages is too long, then the marriage doesn't matter to you or her.

I doubt she's ready for R, she needs more time to reflect and have NC with the OM. That takes months.


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## ABHale

curious234 said:


> Cam, I think it is better to show some sort of compassion (may be not the proper word) and go out with her and also to tell her about the D filling. That way you may also feel less unsettled. This will not take anything away from whatever you want to do and she will feel obligated if you eventually reconcile. I think you are in a mind set now that cannot be subjected to confusion. You said in your opening post she had feeling for the OM. How deep it is. Do you think if it had continued she would have left you for him?


Did she show any compassion for Cam when she was out on dates with the OM?

How about when she asked Cam before going to meet the OM how she looked?

Compassion right now equals rugsweep.


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## Taxman

manfromlamancha said:


> Not meaning to threadjack but are you saying that you had an affair and then your wife had a revenge affair to teach you a lesson ?


As a matter of fact, she did. Ensured that I felt exactly as she did. She did it in a calculated, deliberate and emotionless manner. As she put it to me, "I was on a mission". She went with someone from work. He was someone she could never be involved with. He knew we were separated, and asked her on a date. He hit the lottery that day, an absolutely sure thing, according to her, they made it through the first drink, and then he took her to a seedy motel.

I have to live with that, and she has to live with my despicable actions. We fixed it all nearly 40 years ago.


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## drifting on

Cam
@sokillme I am not advocating for reconciliation. I have stated numerous times he needs to wait six months before deciding when his emotions and feelings have begun to calm. This will give him the best vantage point for him to see where his marriage is at and where it's headed. 

At no time have I suggested to rug sweep nor would I ever condone to rug sweep infidelity. What do you think will happen to Cam when he asks questions? It definitely won't bring you closer. It actually makes you detach, when you begin to hear what a wayward says it almost pushes you away. When my wife answered my questions it hit her core hard, it brought to light what devastation it caused. After a few answers I was further from my wife then I had ever been. That's what these questions are designed to do, hit an unremorseful wayward at their core. It's designed to make them self reflect, they can't minimize or rationalize what they have done. It is also designed so that these questions are asked without being mean. 

Being cruel or mean will get you nowhere in regards to divorce or reconciliation. Cam has children with her and will not be able to evict her from his life as he will have to co-parent with her for some time. If he is mean during either divorce or reconciliation it could do more damage. Cam could possibly get a worse divorce settlement or a reconciliation that won't have a chance. 
@sokillme, all reconciliations have an element of danger for both spouses. Although we disagree on some issues, both of us have respectfully brought our concerns forward to Cam. In my opinion this is how TAM works best for a poster. I appreciate the fact you mentioned rug sweeping, because although it was not what I was condoning I can see why you brought it up. Because we may disagree, I know you have Cams best interest in mind, I also wish Cam the best.


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## sokillme

drifting on said:


> Cam
> 
> @sokillme I am not advocating for reconciliation. I have stated numerous times he needs to wait six months before deciding when his emotions and feelings have begun to calm. This will give him the best vantage point for him to see where his marriage is at and where it's headed.
> 
> At no time have I suggested to rug sweep nor would I ever condone to rug sweep infidelity. What do you think will happen to Cam when he asks questions? It definitely won't bring you closer. It actually makes you detach, when you begin to hear what a wayward says it almost pushes you away. When my wife answered my questions it hit her core hard, it brought to light what devastation it caused. After a few answers I was further from my wife then I had ever been. That's what these questions are designed to do, hit an unremorseful wayward at their core. It's designed to make them self reflect, they can't minimize or rationalize what they have done. It is also designed so that these questions are asked without being mean.
> 
> Being cruel or mean will get you nowhere in regards to divorce or reconciliation. Cam has children with her and will not be able to evict her from his life as he will have to co-parent with her for some time. If he is mean during either divorce or reconciliation it could do more damage. Cam could possibly get a worse divorce settlement or a reconciliation that won't have a chance.
> 
> @sokillme, all reconciliations have an element of danger for both spouses. Although we disagree on some issues, both of us have respectfully brought our concerns forward to Cam. In my opinion this is how TAM works best for a poster. I appreciate the fact you mentioned rug sweeping, because although it was not what I was condoning I can see why you brought it up. Because we may disagree, I know you have Cams best interest in mind, I also wish Cam the best.


First of all none of this is personal. I just don't want to see this man like many others I have seen out there. This is what I am trying to get him to avoid.

I am not against questions but now is not the time, and it must be understood that many WS will lie all the way to the poly table. So questions only have value up to a point. I don't think it's a sense that they get it now, it's just hearing it hurts. Plus there is no AP to run to. Nope you are now stuck with the person you sh*t on. I also have repeatedly said don't be mean, it serves no purpose as he has children with this women and will have to deal with her in his life forever. He should be passionless.

Yes there is danger, but when someone has behaved the way this man's wife has it's wrong to equate the two. Over and over on here and other boards it has been shown that WS have very severe emotional problems. Unless they work very hard those things don't go away, even then many times they don't go away. These are life-long patterns, they lie to their parents, they lie to their boyfriends and girlfriends, and they lie to their SOs. The risk is not the same as someone honorably saying I am not able to over your cheating. It's really unfair to compare the two. 

My biggest issue is with this idea that she didn't really know what she was doing. 

Some of you so desperatly trying to rugsweep this women's actions are the reason why I am so down on R in the first place. It seems one has to tie themselves in knots to be able to do it. 



> As I predicted, some are proclaiming the dangers of assigning to your wife a childlike mentality but in reality it is she, not I, that has ascribed that mentality to her by her actions and the real danger is not recognizing it. It is illogical to assume that she purposefully and with intent decided to destroy her family, damage her children, crush her H and become known as "the cheater". What cunning, intelligent, thoughtful person would do that? Have you OP? Understanding her limited mindset is crucial to you making your decision to R.


Most of these WSs don't operate on logic, they operate on immediate gratification. You don't understand their mentality so you ascribe some logical explanation. Let me propose an alternative explanation. They are bored as she said. The see someone who excites them and they already have poor boundaries. They enjoy repeatedly push the envelope. Each time they willfully decide to ignore the ramifications of their actions because they like the feelings it gives them. The make a conscious choice that the reward is worth the risk. The thinking is, he is never going to find out or I deserve this. He is mean to me. In all those moments it is a choice. A horrible selfish choice to do something evil. Yes at that moment they are not thinking about the ramifications but NOT because they don't understand that they will be grave, they just decide to stop thinking about it so they can do this terrible thing. 

For example you here all the time WS swore on the lives of their children only to be found out later that they were lying. You can NOT say that in that moment they didn't understand what they were doing. WS who see all the damage they have done beg and plead for R and then 2 weeks later they are back texting their affair partner. Now they have seen their BS broken and yet they still do it. This happens over and over. Again, your conclusion doesn't fit the preponderance of evidence. I see why it's attractive because it gives both the WS and BS an easy out without dealing with the evilness of the WS actions. But if you are going to R it's best to do it dealing with the truth. Don't base the whole process on a false premise. 

You guys are way to trusting, I would love to sell you guys a car though. 0

Anway this is the same kind of rug swept dissonance that leads folks to desperately look for some deeper reason for years. You see them post this question over and over. What made them do this? This is because it is too painful to accept the truth. The truth is they did it because the had opportunity and they wanted to. That you are married to a person who in their moment of selfishness really didn't give a crap about their families and you. They were selfish, selfish enough to do something evil. It's the same bullsh*t as the mythical fog that is always talked about. Pure rationalization. 

I get it, it easier at first to think it's really because of how the WS parents treated them years ago, or that they didn't know they would blow up their family, but as time marches on the reality of what deep down the BS knows is true only ends up eating away at the R. If it was their parents why doesn't everyone who's parents treat them bad cheat? If you start R with this kind of thinking you never really come to terms with what happened. This is a classic case of the BS rug sweeping. You are not helping yourself by rationalizing their selfishness away. You need to deal with it in all it's ugliness. 

The scary thing is most WS don't have the empathy to feel the pain that you or I would. This makes it easier for them to cheat than people who do have normal empathy would. Again making them dangerous. It' very hard to teach or learn empathy because it is a feeling. 

Maybe R just takes tying yourself into a pretzel to do it. Maybe if you really look at a WS in the harsh light of their actions no one would R. I don't know. Personally, if she really didn't know that this would blow up her family then she has a very serious psychosis and that doesn't make it any better in my book anyway. It may actually make it worse.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

sokillme said:


> For example you here all the time WS swore on the lives of their children only to be found out later that they were lying. You can NOT say that in that moment they didn't understand what they were doing.


It* is* literally easy to say that they don't know what they were doing.

"I'm cheating"
"I'm betraying my husband"

These are almost always afterthoughts. 



> WS who see all the damage they have done beg and plead for R and then 2 weeks later they are back texting their affair partner. Now they have seen their BS broken and yet they still do it. This happens over and over. Again, your conclusion doesn't fit the preponderance of evidence. I see why it's attractive because it gives both the WS and BS an easy out without dealing with the evilness of the WS actions. But if you are going to R it's best to do it dealing with the truth. Don't base the whole process on a false premise.


Evilness requires it to be a calculated decision. Again, this is not always the case.

One doesn't need "an easy way out". The emotionally unintelligent behavior exists before and after the exposure of the affair.






> Anway this is the same kind of rug swept dissonance that leads folks to desperately look for some deeper reason for years. You see them post this question over and over. What made them do this? This is because it is too painful to accept the truth.


The truth is a short and sweet answer. Good point.



> The truth is they did it because the had opportunity and they wanted to. That you are married to a person who in their moment of selfishness really didn't give a crap about their families and you. They were selfish, selfish enough to do something evil. It's the same bullsh*t as the mythical fog that is always talked about. Pure rationalization.


In the minority of cases this is true.

There are elements of selfishness that exist, but the context must be narrowly defined.



> The scary thing is most WS don't have the empathy to feel the pain that you or I would. This makes it easier for them to cheat than people who do have normal empathy would. Again making them dangerous. It' very hard to teach or learn empathy because it is a feeling.


They don't fundamentally lack empathy. It is highly situational. It is easy to teach empathy, but there are always pitfalls (swiss cheese).




> Maybe R just takes tying yourself into a pretzel to do it. Maybe if you really look at a WS in the harsh light of their actions no one would R. I don't know. Personally, if she really didn't know that this would blow up her family then she has a very serious psychosis and that doesn't make it any better in my book anyway. It may actually make it worse.


It is often a temporary mental state.

Looking at WS objectively greatly helps the rate of reconciliation.


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## sokillme

Relationship Teacher said:


> It* is* literally easy to say that they don't know what they were doing.
> 
> "I'm cheating"
> "I'm betraying my husband"



Yeah, rug sweeping is easy, it's why it happens a lot.


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## Relationship Teacher

sokillme said:


> Yeah, rug sweeping is easy, it's why it happens a lot.


Please address what I said.


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## Bloodinthecut

Cam, 

I have read your posts and it has stuck with me. 

Everything that everyone is saying here about the psychology of a WS is true (i.e. DH becomes a parent, they do it for the thrill, the want their cake and eat it too). I say this with certainty because I was/am a WS. 

My situation differs from yours. I had a 2 month affair (no sex-just making out) and it was a suicide for me. The guilt, the pain, the confusion, the toll of sin afflicted me greatly. I became dependent on Xanax to cope with what I had done (you can read my thread on here, I used to be Loosingsleep90 but couldn't remember my credentials) However, my DH never found out. I came to him and told him myself. 

Here is the thing: If you are asking if she is remorseful, then she is not remorseful. Remorse is something you can see. I also don't know if remorse is reactive? I think remorse is proactive. They person needs to be feeling this without the catalyst of being discovered. 

See with me, I make no excuses I bit the apple and I dug 4 graves (one for myself, one for my husband, one for my daughter and one for our marriage). I wilted to nothing, behind my eyes I could see my soul tarnashing, when I looked in the mirror my face had changed, my skin was grey. 

I started sobering up in Jan. I was taking almost 3 (2mg) Xanax a day! I have no idea how I was alive. I mean I was barely alive. I now see my life Before Affair (B.A) and After Affair (A.A). I feel so much sadness when I look at pictures of who we were, who I was and the way we used to be. I am a different person now. I feel almost like a zombie of myself. I was a good person once but I am no longer. And, I wonder if my husband could love an ugly thing like me? I can't expect him to and I don't. Everything about me was dulled out. I even talked about not knowing if I loved my husband. But its hard to love someone when you don't love yourself. As I sober up (I was blind but now I see), I am not worthy of him. And, I can't ask him to atone my sins. I cant ask him that. All I can do is pray that he can find it in his heart to forgive me for the person that I have become. The shadow of the person. 

We are trying. There so much of the bible that I understand now. So much of God I see now. It's right what they teach you about sin and repenting. I turned my back on God and being so far away from God was hell. 

I don't want to highjack your thread...All I wanted to say is that when you see remorse, you will know. The person looks like they have been poisoned. But the worst part of remorse is feeding the poison the person you vowed to love.


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## sokillme

Relationship Teacher said:


> Please address what I said.


My response could like yours could basically be summed up, I think you are wrong. At this point, I would just be restating everything I've posted again. WSs are much more culpable than you make them out to be as evidenced by the fact that many of them re-offend even years later. It's in their nature. Your post was basically you stating you think I am wrong, you are as objective as I am. So there are the two theories on this. 

Because of that OP should detach and then look at his wife's actions, past and present but even more than that he needs to decide what he can live with. Someone like me couldn't rationalize it and then live with it. Someone like you probably could. Finally, he needs to figure out what is his motivation is, especially if it is to stay. It should not be fear. That will just lead to him losing agency in his own life. That leads to depression and hopelessness. He won't be able to make that choice until the initial trauma and pain subsides, you need to detach for that to happen, not spend time with the WS. That's really about all there is to it.


----------



## sokillme

Bloodinthecut said:


> Cam,
> 
> I have read your posts and it has stuck with me.
> 
> Everything that everyone is saying here about the psychology of a WS is true (i.e. DH becomes a parent, they do it for the thrill, the want their cake and eat it too). I say this with certainty because I was/am a WS.
> 
> My situation differs from yours. I had a 2 month affair (no sex-just making out) and it was a suicide for me. The guilt, the pain, the confusion, the toll of sin afflicted me greatly. I became dependent on Xanax to cope with what I had done (you can read my thread on here, I used to be Loosingsleep90 but couldn't remember my credentials) However, my DH never found out. I came to him and told him myself.
> 
> Here is the thing: If you are asking if she is remorseful, then she is not remorseful. Remorse is something you can see. I also don't know if remorse is reactive? I think remorse is proactive. They person needs to be feeling this without the catalyst of being discovered.
> 
> See with me, I make no excuses I bit the apple and I dug 4 graves (one for myself, one for my husband, one for my daughter and one for our marriage). I wilted to nothing, behind my eyes I could see my soul tarnashing, when I looked in the mirror my face had changed, my skin was grey.
> 
> I started sobering up in Jan. I was taking almost 3 (2mg) Xanax a day! I have no idea how I was alive. I mean I was barely alive. I now see my life Before Affair (B.A) and After Affair (A.A). I feel so much sadness when I look at pictures of who we were, who I was and the way we used to be. I am a different person now. I feel almost like a zombie of myself. I was a good person once but I am no longer. And, I wonder if my husband could love an ugly thing like me? I can't expect him to and I don't. Everything about me was dulled out. I even talked about not knowing if I loved my husband. But its hard to love someone when you don't love yourself. As I sober up (I was blind but now I see), I am not worthy of him. And, I can't ask him to atone my sins. I cant ask him that. All I can do is pray that he can find it in his heart to forgive me for the person that I have become. The shadow of the person.
> 
> We are trying. There so much of the bible that I understand now. So much of God I see now. It's right what they teach you about sin and repenting. I turned my back on God and being so far away from God was hell.
> 
> I don't want to highjack your thread...All I wanted to say is that when you see remorse, you will know. The person looks like they have been poisoned. But the worst part of remorse is feeding the poison the person you vowed to love.


This person I might consider R with (it's hard to say that with just a thread post). This is the kind of remorse it takes. 

I wish you luck. Remember you did wrong but that doesn't define your whole life. It only does if you let it. There is a reason why we all need repentance. Part of repenting is also accepting that you are forgiven. If and when your husband says he forgives you, then you need to accept it. It the offended party can forgive who are you not to forgive yourself. Read John 8.

Edit: So I checked as I remembered you are the person with PPD who posted last month. So you have gotten off the Xanax now and you are less numb to your own actions it sounds. Drugs will do that to you. Please get back on your old post, or start a new post and give us a full update now that you are more "with it" so we can help you.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

sokillme said:


> My response could like yours could basically be summed up, I think you are wrong. At this point, I would just be restating everything I've posted again. WSs are much more culpable than you make them out to be as evidenced by the fact that many of them re-offend even years later.
> 
> It's in their nature. Your post was basically you stating you think I am wrong, you are as objective as I am. So there are the two theories on this.
> 
> Because of that OP should detach and then look at his wife's actions, past and present but even more than that he needs to decide what he can live with. Finally, he needs to figure out what is his motivation is, especially if it is to stay. It should not be fear. That will just lead to him losing agency in his own life. That leads to depression and hopelessness. He won't be able to make that choice until the initial trauma and pain subside, you need to detach for that to happen, not spend time with the WS. That's really about all there is to it.


Explanations always expose more common ground. :wink2:


To adequately respond to this post of yours would require quite the wall of text. I shall save such matters for my thread. What I will address is this:



> Someone like me couldn't rationalize it and then live with it. Someone like you probably could.


I wrote an article that addressed this a while ago. In short, one who is objectively following (or close to) expert advice in a relationship would have less reason to be open to reconciliation. One who cheats in that environment is going to have more fundamental character flaws. The preponderance of affairs occur when dissatisfaction is present in the marriage.


----------



## sokillme

Relationship Teacher said:


> Explanations always expose more common ground. :wink2:
> 
> 
> To adequately respond to this post of yours would require quite the wall of text. I shall save such matters for my thread. What I will address is this:
> 
> 
> I wrote an article that addressed this a while ago. In short, one who is objectively following (or close to) expert advice in a relationship would have less reason to be open to reconciliation. One who cheats in that environment is going to have more fundamental character flaws. The preponderance of affairs occur when dissatisfaction is present in the marriage.


Lets not thread jack. This guy needs help.


----------



## sokillme

How are you doing @cam42? We dumped a lot of philosophical stuff on you in this thread in the last day or so, and it is good that your read it because it will help you sort through your own feeling on your situation. But the main point of the thread is to help you deal with what you are going through. How has the last few days been? Where is your head at?

There is a guy on SI whose wife did exactly the same thing to him that your wife did to you. I am assuming that isn't you right. It may be helpful to read his post too. Warning though it may also be too painful, but maybe seeing a similar situation from an outside perspective will help you clarify your feelings. Actually, there are lots of guys on there whose wives have done this. There are a lot of entitled women out there. Anyway, He is a little further behind you but steadily on the same track.


----------



## Bloodinthecut

sokillme said:


> How are you doing @cam42? We dumped a lot of philosophical stuff on you in this thread in the last day or so, and it is good that your read it because it will help you sort through your own feeling on your situation. But the main point of the thread is to help you deal with what you are going through. How has the last few days been? Where is your head at?
> 
> There is a guy on SI whose wife did exactly the same thing to him that your wife did to you. I am assuming that isn't you right. It may be helpful to read his post too. Warning though it may also be too painful, but maybe seeing a similar situation from an outside perspective will help you clarify your feelings. Actually, there are lots of guys on there whose wives have done this. There are a lot of entitled women out there. Anyway, He is a little further behind you but steadily on the same track.


HOLY CRAP! That was painful for me to read! That poor, poor man. I feel so bad for him. I know I am a WS but this is on another level. I don't think that woman even cares!!


----------



## sokillme

Bloodinthecut said:


> HOLY CRAP! That was painful for me to read! That poor, poor man. I feel so bad for him. I know I am a WS but this is on another level. I don't think that woman even cares!!


Most WS don't care. Sadly.


----------



## MovingFrwrd

Bloodinthecut said:


> HOLY CRAP! That was painful for me to read! That poor, poor man. I feel so bad for him. I know I am a WS but this is on another level. I don't think that woman even cares!!


Sadly, that situation isn't unique. I've become far more cynical reading threads, but I have to remind myself that I'm not walking the original poster's path. They are. All BS's paths to discovery are pretty horrific, and the earth shattering discovery and fallout overtakes their lives for a fairly large period of time. Some can fight back and find a path to healing (regardless of D or R) and some become angry, embittered souls. Nearly all sink into a depression or rage of some nature for varying lengths of time.

Some WSs are able to make the life altering changes, most can't. D is often the case. If R is possible, then it takes both the BS and WS working hard on themselves and the marriage to have a fighting chance. That's a hard road to go. It takes an inordinate amount of strength and humility from both parties to embark on that road, and even more perseverance and vulnerability to continue.

Cam, hope you're holding up. I hope you're finding a way to deal with the emotions and triggers. I hope that you are able to find peace and healing.


----------



## drifting on

@cam42 and @Bloodinthecut

I just read the thread sokillme linked to his post. This WS is not even close to being remorseful. This WS is in full damage control. The problem is that damage control only further harms the betrayed spouse. Cam42 this post by movingfrwrdis spot on if you even think of reconciling. The road is long and very difficult. There are no shortcuts and you need to know this is a process. Overlooking something will cause a hardship later in your reconciliation. 
@Bloodinthecut, unfortunately your husband probably feels the same as the betrayed spouse in the linked thread. I'm not trying to be harsh and certainly not comparing you to anyone, but your husband is most likely just as devastated and destroyed. You rationalized having lunch with someone you were attracted too. You determined that trading notes would be ok to do. But you need to see that from a different perspective. What if you called your husband and said you were having lunch with a male from your class? Your husband might have agreed, but in essence you would be lying by omission. What do you think your husband would have said if you told him you were attracted to this male student? It's this kind of damage that destroys the betrayed spouse. So Cam is destroyed as well as your husband. 

Infidelity has so many nuances, that it destroys and consumes the betrayed spouse. As of now Cam is undecided on what to choose, reconciliation or divorce. Allegedly, Cams wife is doing all she can for her husband, but she hasn't hit remorse yet. Reconciliation can't begin to take place without remorse.


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## ABHale

How did it go Cam?


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## cam42

So she was served today at her workplace, I'm not proud of it. You can guess my phone was being blown up immediately of her texting, calling, getting her mother to call me (who is also pissed at her). She came home from work and was looking for me. To be honest I was sitting in a parking lot just staring off into space, I didn't know how to feel. She's confessed to our children, she's been going to therapy, is acting apologetic. I still can't believe I filed, feels so strange. WW said she is a "****ed up person" for what she put me and our children through and will do anything for reconciliation but will give me the divorce if I want it. Since the other man is out of the picture she wants to go to MC soon, I let her know I will be moving forward with the divorce and will observe her behavior. She's devastated, she is now looking to get anti-depressants. I've never seen her cry so much, I wish I wasn't causing those tears but she did put this upon herself. I'm not 100% sure I'm going through with the divorce. We did not also go out to valentines day together, for the time being I see us as roommates unless she can prove she's worthy to be my spouse. I'm starting to finally pick myself out of this darkness, thank you everyone.


----------



## farsidejunky

Good, Cam. That is done so you can stop overthinking it.

Now you need to know exactly what you need from her to feel safe again.

Do you know yet?

Have you had any additional dialogue with her about the A?

Or are you in the 180 at this point?


----------



## cam42

farsidejunky said:


> Good, Cam. That is done so you can stop overthinking it.
> 
> Now you need to know exactly what you need from her to feel safe again.
> 
> Do you know yet?
> 
> Have you had any additional dialogue with her about the A?
> 
> Or are you in the 180 at this point?


I am in the 180 detachment part. It's been difficult, but I know I have to show her I can be happy without her. I told her I would prefer not to talk to her about the affair tonight, I felt as if I'm not in a good state of mind to have a productive discussion about it. I overheard her crying in the room she has been sleeping in for the time being. I think she is sorry, but I will need much more out of her if were going to reconcile. She said if we divorce she's refusing to take anything because she "destroyed everything". It's been a tough day for both of us.


----------



## sokillme

cam42 said:


> So she was served today at her workplace, I'm not proud of it. You can guess my phone was being blown up immediately of her texting, calling, getting her mother to call me (who is also pissed at her). She came home from work and was looking for me. To be honest I was sitting in a parking lot just staring off into space, I didn't know how to feel. She's confessed to our children, she's been going to therapy, is acting apologetic. I still can't believe I filed, feels so strange. WW said she is a "****ed up person" for what she put me and our children through and will do anything for reconciliation but will give me the divorce if I want it. Since the other man is out of the picture she wants to go to MC soon, I let her know I will be moving forward with the divorce and will observe her behavior. She's devastated, she is now looking to get anti-depressants. I've never seen her cry so much, I wish I wasn't causing those tears but she did put this upon herself. I'm not 100% sure I'm going through with the divorce. We did not also go out to valentines day together, for the time being I see us as roommates unless she can prove she's worthy to be my spouse. I'm starting to finally pick myself out of this darkness, thank you everyone.





cam42 said:


> I wish I wasn't causing those tears but she did put this upon herself.


The second half of this sentence is right. She did this, she blew up her life and her family. Quit taking ownership for her betrayal. I bet there is nothing you want less then to be where you are now. She shouldn't have been going out on dates with her lover. Remind yourself that. Keep separating. Be careful what marriage counselor you get some do more damage then good. It's a hard thing but you should be proud of yourself for standing up for yourself. She did this, not you.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*

You are taking this at your pace which is good. Don't let her rush anything.

Are you exercising? Drinking 6-8 8 oz glasses of water per day? Avoiding alcohol? Eating properly?


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## sokillme

cam42 said:


> I am in the 180 detachment part. It's been difficult, but I know I have to show her I can be happy without her. I told her I would prefer not to talk to her about the affair tonight, I felt as if I'm not in a good state of mind to have a productive discussion about it. I overheard her crying in the room she has been sleeping in for the time being. I think she is sorry, but I will need much more out of her if were going to reconcile. She said if we divorce she's refusing to take anything because she "destroyed everything". It's been a tough day for both of us.


The question is can you live with it. That is the most important question before you even attempt to R. Can you see yourself spending the next 40 or so years waking up next to this person, being in public and around friends and family with this person, or is it going to haunt you and steal the joy out of your life. The affair doesn't go away you learn to live with it. 

What you need to understand though is you have to go through this suffering no matter what you do, you are going to have to go through the pain. So staying doesn't make it any easier or make the pain go away quicker. There is some question if leaving does. Remember you are never going to go back to the marriage as it was before. Some say they have it better after, but generally these were marriages where they were completely dysfunctional so the affair makes them work on it. You don't usually here that from people who were decent and got blindsided. 

So since you are going to go through the pain either way, you need to decide will be able to live with your choice and her and still be consistently happy. You probably won't know that until the emotion from all this dies down. Right it's like you emotions have had an extreme allergy attack. Your emotions are raw and irritated. This is why you detach, not to show her you are strong, but so you are in less of an emotional frenzy and can really analyze if you can live with this for the rest of your life *and be happy*. Not just survive. It's OK if you can't. I couldn't. 

After that you need to determine if she is safe. Right now you have no idea. Crying means absolutely nothing, promises don't as well. Lots and lots of WS do all of these things and still cheat later. My opinion is people cheat because they have poor character, a flaw in them, and being sorry about it doesn't change that flaw. I takes a huge amount of work, but first even understanding there is a flaw. I personally think people who cheat are like alcoholics, meaning they are much more disposed to cheat again. Others believe differently, but I will tell you there is no shortage of people who return to these sites after thinking they were in recovery for years, sometimes decades, only to repeat the nightmare. Most thought they were out of the woods. This is a very real question you need to ask yourself. There is a very real danger. 

Others will say you still have that risk with someone new, true but if you believe like me that cheaters are like alcoholics then this means they are much more susceptible to falling back into this behavior. Even if they do all the work. Also with a new person you at least have a fresh start without all the baggage and the possibility (hope) of a faithful spouse for your whole marriage. It's hard to live without hope, knowing you have accepted plan B. With a new person you won't have the affair partner in your marriage like this man will be forever in yours now. 

First of all detach. Again nothing to do with showing her, all to do with making a less emotional choice and a more practical one. Plus it will start to give you strength. You need to see you will be OK without her. 

Hang in there.


----------



## mickybill

This is a another DDay for the two of you, I can't imagine how hard it must've been but it is a huge step.
To paraphrase Churchill "It is not the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."

Hang in there, you are making great progress


----------



## sokillme

It's a good idea to join a gym. Exerciser gives you goals and daily successes to be happy about. It also builds your bodies natural endorphins. This would also give you something to do while you detach. The next 6 months should be about watching her, and doing for yourself. Both of you need to see what life will be like without her in your life. Plus this will expose her motives pretty quick.


----------



## jsmart

Your love for her comes through your words. Even though she stuck a knife through your heart, it tears you up to see her so devastated. 

Even though it hurts you to do it, it was one more of your smart moves. You exposed her AP, who then quickly threw her under the bus. (Ouch, I thought we were soul mates.) You exposed to your family and her parents. Seeing the devastation in your kids faces and how they rallied around you were like a bucket of ice cold water to her fogged up head. And now having her served at work, she now sees that what she thought was exciting and worth the risk, has destroyed her life. 

With you doing the 180 to detach, it is also letting her see that CAM was the better man all along and will survive without her. All combined, it has her hitting rock bottom.

Now you watch her actions. If she does enough for you to give her a second chance, you can stop the divorce or better yet, let it complete and later date and have new marriage untarnished by adultery.


----------



## Tobyboy

Are you still in touch with the OMs wife? It might be a good idea to warn her that you've filed and your wife has been served. Just to keep an eye on her side if NC is broken.


----------



## GusPolinski

@cam42, have you been able to determine whether or not any of your WW's friends -- or family -- knew of and/or encouraged her affair?

Based on some of what you wrote in your initial post it would seem pretty likely.

If that's the case then those relationships will obviously have to be scrutinized and re-evaluated should you opt for reconciliation.


----------



## Doyle

You did the right thing wherever it goes from here.

I was just going to mention the friends but Gus beat me to the punch.


----------



## eric1

Cam,

You are doing amazing. It feels... ironic?... telling that to someone who quite understandably is going through a lot of inner turmoil. But you are.


----------



## Marc878

It's early yet. Her tears are probably regret from everyone finding out and the consequences. I doubt it's remorse at this time. The good thing as you've found. The affair is blown up. Unless that ended nothing could begin.


----------



## barbados

cam42 said:


> So she was served today at her workplace, I'm not proud of it. You can guess my phone was being blown up immediately of her texting, calling, getting her mother to call me (who is also pissed at her). She came home from work and was looking for me. To be honest I was sitting in a parking lot just staring off into space, I didn't know how to feel. She's confessed to our children, she's been going to therapy, is acting apologetic. I still can't believe I filed, feels so strange. WW said she is a "****ed up person" for what she put me and our children through and will do anything for reconciliation but will give me the divorce if I want it. Since the other man is out of the picture she wants to go to MC soon, I let her know I will be moving forward with the divorce and will observe her behavior. She's devastated, she is now looking to get anti-depressants. I've never seen her cry so much, *I wish I wasn't causing those tears but she did put this upon herself*. I'm not 100% sure I'm going through with the divorce. We did not also go out to valentines day together, for the time being I see us as roommates unless she can prove she's worthy to be my spouse. I'm starting to finally pick myself out of this darkness, thank you everyone.


CAM, every time you get thoughts like the bolded part above just stop and remind yourself that she actually got dolled up to go have sex with the POSOM and actually asked you, her husband, the very person she was betraying, how she looked ! Remember that. NEVER forget that !

You have done the right things so far, and have shown a lot more resolve and strength then a lot of BS's that come here. You should be proud of your decisive actions.


----------



## MovingFrwrd

Cam.

I can hear the pain coming from your posts, figured I'd take a moment and share my thoughts, though they may be contrary.

It does appear that your WW is showing signs necessary for being able to R. I'm not saying you should or should not do it, just that she is showing signs. I didn't read anything that said she was blaming you. I didn't read anything where she was attacking you, I didn't read anything that said she was going to fight you. What you've posted so far, it appears she is taking responsibility for her own actions. This is an important step for both of your healing, whether it's D or R.

That said, I'm sure your emotions are in a whirlwind. This is where you need to be able to separate from the emotional side and look at where things are. None of us are in your shoes, some of us have similar stories, but yours is your own situation, with its own unique issues. Basically, look critically and without emotion at the things you stand to gain vs the things you stand to lose. This is the first part of making such an important decision.

Now that the D process is started, she may just now be realizing how badly she hurt you. What the fallout of those choices are remains to be seen, but her initial response to it was nearly the same as my wife's. 

If R is on the table in some fashion, I encourage you to continue with the MC. If it's not, than I encourage you to keep the 180 going. In both cases, please work hard on yourself in IC and take care of your health like previous posters have stated.

Best of luck as you continue, I feel your pain.


----------



## MyRevelation

cam42 said:


> She said if we divorce she's refusing to take anything because she "destroyed everything". It's been a tough day for both of us.


I want to focus on ^^THIS^^ ... too many "Nice Guys" let this golden opportunity slip through their grasp. You don't have to be a bastard about it, but since the D is filed, now is a good time to negotiate a favorable property and custody settlement, while she is filled with regret and shame. D is a messy business deal where splitting up assets and future earnings gets confused and complicated by emotions. If you don't feel up to it, at least direct your attorney to start the property and custody negotiations asap while your WW is feeling bad about and beating herself up.

Even if you do reconcile post-D, you will do so by operating from a more level financial playing field than if you simply stopped the D and went straight into attempting R. Your WW didn't consider you or your needs when she unilaterally changed the game with her A, NOW is the time to look out for cam and make him the priority going forward.


----------



## sokillme

MyRevelation said:


> I want to focus on ^^THIS^^ ... too many "Nice Guys" let this golden opportunity slip through their grasp. You don't have to be a bastard about it, but since the D is filed, now is a good time to negotiate a favorable property and custody settlement, while she is filled with regret and shame. D is a messy business deal where splitting up assets and future earnings gets confused and complicated by emotions. If you don't feel up to it, at least direct your attorney to start the property and custody negotiations asap while your WW is feeling bad about and beating herself up.
> 
> Even if you do reconcile post-D, you will do so by operating from a more level financial playing field than if you simply stopped the D and went straight into attempting R. Your WW didn't consider you or your needs when she unilaterally changed the game with her A, NOW is the time to look out for cam and make him the priority going forward.


It's also a good way to figure out if she has remorse or regret. It also gives her even more consequences and makes it more real. You can be fair and you can aways change your mind. Her really doing this taking a financial hit would show some understanding of the magnitude of what she did.


----------



## eric1

'I'll give YOU a divorce if that's what YOU need'

"*I* will not ask for anything in the divorce"

It's still a about her. She's trying to fall into the sword to suck you back in but rest assured this isn't how a remorseful adult acts.

She may become remorseful. Right now she is just playing you.


----------



## TX-SC

eric1 said:


> 'I'll give YOU a divorce if that's what YOU need'
> 
> "*I* will not ask for anything in the divorce"
> 
> It's still a about her. She's trying to fall into the sword to suck you back in but rest assured this isn't how a remorseful adult acts.
> 
> She may become remorseful. Right now she is just playing you.


I have to disagree. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


----------



## drifting on

Cam42

Well, something you thought you wouldn't have done is done. Did you notice anything? Not only has your wife survived but you and your children survived too. It is very important that you realize you all survived. Now you can begin step one.

Get yourself in IC, rebuild yourself, self reflect and fix any issues with yourself. Your first step is to heal and know that you will be ok with or without your wife. Why go to IC to fix yourself? So that if you divorce or reconcile you will be the best Cam you can be. So you know how good of a spouse you can be. To better yourself and improve your self esteem. To bring back your confidence after feeling emasculated, humiliated, destroyed, devastated, hopeless, and fearful. Get yourself better before you even think of doing MC. 

Let the divorce roll forward, let your wife feel that consequence. Your wife had no issues with letting you know the pains of infidelity. Her feeling how she is, is her feeling the weight of her choices, her owning her own shlt. You can't control how she feels, you can't control how she will react, you can't control her to feel remorse. Work on what you can control, YOU. Spend time with your kids, they are also going through a difficult time. Be there to guide them through this ordeal and get them therapy. 

While you work on yourself begin to watch your wife's actions. Words are strictly words at this point in time, trust but verify is how you now live. If her actions do not show she is for the marriage, then your decision is easy. If she shows remorse and her actions are she is for the marriage and family, then your decision will get a bit difficult. But for the next couple of months work on yourself and not the marriage so much. 

As for how your wife feels, remember she caused all of this. She never came to you and asked if she could have a sexual relationship with anyone. I understand that it hurts to see her in pain and cry, bug the damage she caused you is worse. She has a therapist to help her fix herself, so let her do her work. Do not feel guilty, but don't be mean, when remorse hits and she feels your pain along with hers, you will be happy you weren't mean. 

You have a long hard road, but you will make it. Best of luck to you.


----------



## Taxman

Cam
You are still in pain, and we all ache for you. You have done the right thing here. This presses the point that she not only harmed you, but harmed your children. I refer back to TimeIsOnMySide's thread. He too found his wife cheating on him. He exposed to their kids, her work, her students etc. She made every excuse in the book, but at the end of it all, they will divorce, her children will have little to do with her, and at a point in the posts, her daughters pointed out how toxic her behavior was toward their father, and let her know in no uncertain terms that they would be setting their father up with their friends' moms. Their own mother realized at that point she had not only lost her husband and marriage, she had lost her children as well and spent some time in a psych ward.


----------



## straightshooter

eric1 said:


> 'I'll give YOU a divorce if that's what YOU need'
> 
> "*I* will not ask for anything in the divorce"
> 
> It's still a about her. She's trying to fall into the sword to suck you back in but rest assured this isn't how a remorseful adult acts.
> 
> She may become remorseful. Right now she is just playing you.


Cam,

No matter what you decide you need to read the above again. Remorse does not occur this quick. Lets look at what she did NOT do.
(1) she did not end the affair herself and do you think for a minute that if OM had been thrown out by his wife and his wife had not provided any information or even contacted you that your wife would have stopped sleeping with him. I hope you do not believe the answer to that was yes. She would have still been banging him. 
(2) even after being caught she did not tell you anywhere near the truth
(3) unless I missed something, she still has not come clean on which of her social circle knew. When she asked you how she looked before going to meet OM, someone had to be available to cover for her had you tried to contact her and would have vouched for her being out with the girls. So you may be at dinner with someone who knew what she was doing. 
(4) she did not tell everyone until she was served divorce papers
(5) she did not honor your request for space. Instead, she tried to lure you back with sex, her drug of choice
(6) she was so clueless and uncaring, she felt she deserved a Valentines dinner.

Cam, unless a WW wants a divorce, the are ALL sorry when they get booted from the house, or their family is suddenly destroyed, or they are served divorce papers. That is not remorse.

Other than a BJ, has she proactively offered a polygraph.? No. 

Not remorse my friend. Deep regret. The fun is over

And the reason you need to contact the wife of OM and tell him you her you have filed is two fold
(1) you owe her big time to let her know anything might effect her situation.
(2) and more importantly, if his wife tells you she already knows that, it means OM has been on contact with your wife and she told him. His wife will not lie to you. If she knows it will be evident and there is no other way for him to know. He does not work there where she was served. And if your wife shared this with anyone in her office, that is who her enabler is and was.

The crap about instant remorse is just wjat I said CRAP.

Your wife was bored, wanted some fun, and did it. Period. No guessing.

Does that mean you must divorce. No it does not. But it means you better let her stew and see how she reacts.

You have done well so far because you have listened to a good portion of the advice. Don't forget, your thread says a 6 month emotional affair. The group was not wrong.

Do not rush yourself into R. Its her job now to earn it 24/7. And to prove to you beyond a reasonable doubt there is NC, no hidden apps, etc. 

Im going to keep telling you that before you cross the line to R if you do that, you are being very naive not to do the polygraph or not bring it up, which if she is desparately searching for a way to regain trust, she should stumble upon it on her own instead of wanting a niche romnanctic dinner to help you rugsweep.

Cam, believe it our not, the hard **** starts now


----------



## cam42

True to everything posted above. I'm done with her ****. I texted her that most likely were going to get a divorce so let's sign the agreements and get the ball rolling. She blew up my phone again and I told her I'm not going to discuss this over text. I have now got a call from her sister saying that my wife told if it wasn't for our kids she would want to be dead while sobbing, she doesn't blame me she said she's just worried about her. I don't want to be mean to her, even though she was absolutely secretly cruel for six months straight. I wish I could make up my mind, but I want to take advantage of her not wanting anything for my own advantage. 

She did not make the death comment to me, I don't think she is suicidal. I know she wouldn't because she loves our kids. I have told the OM's wife that I filed, she thanked for me for telling her and thinks she might go down the same path so yeah. 

Anyone have good questions to ask for a poly? I want to get one down now for sure within this week, I'm done putting it off.


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## Malaise

cam42 said:


> True to everything posted above. I'm done with her ****. I texted her that most likely were going to get a divorce so let's sign the agreements and get the ball rolling. She blew up my phone again and I told her I'm not going to discuss this over text. I have now got a call from her sister saying that my wife told if it wasn't for our kids she would want to be dead while sobbing, she doesn't blame me she said she's just worried about her. I don't want to be mean to her, even though she was absolutely secretly cruel for six months straight. I wish I could make up my mind, but I want to take advantage of her not wanting anything for my own advantage.
> 
> She did not make the death comment to me,* I don't think she is suicidal*. I know she wouldn't because she loves our kids. I have told the OM's wife that I filed, she thanked for me for telling her and thinks she might go down the same path so yeah.
> 
> Anyone have good questions to ask for a poly? I want to get one down now for sure within this week, I'm done putting it off.


But, she is very manipulative.


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## harrybrown

Did she use protection?

Did she do anything that she never did with you with the OM?

Does she love you?

Does she love the OM? 

Did she love the OM?

how many other times did she cheat on you?

Why did she think it was ok to cheat and why did she cheat?, but they can't ask but yes or no questions.

Does she think about the OM when you have sex with her or had sex with her?

Would it be fine for you to have an affair? or does she not care?

will she pay for the resource of affair recovery.com?

Did she pay for the hotels?

Did she have sex with him in your home? did he ever meet your kids? did she buy him gifts? does she have gifts from him? still in your house?

Did she throw away the nighties she wore for him?

Good luck to you.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Cam42 impressive and well executed. You do realize that now you are in total control of the situation. She appears to be hitting rock bottom right now as my FWW did, remorse followed shortly thereafter with me. My wife said almost exact same things your is saying when I bolted for six weeks


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## sokillme

cam42 said:


> True to everything posted above. I'm done with her ****. I texted her that most likely were going to get a divorce so let's sign the agreements and get the ball rolling. She blew up my phone again and I told her I'm not going to discuss this over text. I have now got a call from her sister saying that my wife told if it wasn't for our kids she would want to be dead while sobbing, she doesn't blame me she said she's just worried about her. I don't want to be mean to her, even though she was absolutely secretly cruel for six months straight. I wish I could make up my mind, but I want to take advantage of her not wanting anything for my own advantage.
> 
> She did not make the death comment to me, I don't think she is suicidal. I know she wouldn't because she loves our kids. I have told the OM's wife that I filed, she thanked for me for telling her and thinks she might go down the same path so yeah.
> 
> Anyone have good questions to ask for a poly? I want to get one down now for sure within this week, I'm done putting it off.


She may be suicidal but it should be remembered manipulators manipulate. Detach, detach, detach. If she is in that much pain you detaching will help her get over it quicker as well.

Has there been any other emotional or physical relationships with any other men since the point where you became exclusive until today, excluding the man she had an affair with.


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## straightshooter

cam42 said:


> True to everything posted above. I'm done with her ****. I texted her that most likely were going to get a divorce so let's sign the agreements and get the ball rolling. She blew up my phone again and I told her I'm not going to discuss this over text. I have now got a call from her sister saying that my wife told if it wasn't for our kids she would want to be dead while sobbing, she doesn't blame me she said she's just worried about her.* I don't want to be mean to her, even though she was absolutely secretly cruel for six months straight.* I wish I could make up my mind, but I want to take advantage of her not wanting anything for my own advantage.
> 
> She did not make the death comment to me, I don't think she is suicidal. I know she wouldn't because she loves our kids. I have told the OM's wife that I filed, she thanked for me for telling her and thinks she might go down the same path so yeah.
> 
> Anyone have good questions to ask for a poly? I want to get one down now for sure within this week, I'm done putting it off.


Cam,

Like I said, now the hard part. Lets start with what OM wife told you. You need her to tell you if her husband knows or mentions to her that you have also filed. Unless they are still talking, he should have no way to know that. And understand, if the OM wife is also playing hardball, the two lovebirds may not be able to resist mourning their poor misfortune to each other.

STOP talking to her family now that they now what she has done. Blood is thicker than water, and eventually they are going to come down in support of her. The families are always wanting the marriage to stay together for the kids but they do not share the roof with a woman who was ****ing a co worker and wanted to continue doing it. You cannot let yourself get manipulated by tears. She would not be in this position if she had kept her clothes on and knees together.

read what is in BOLD above. Really???? Read my previous post. Is there anything she did to you for six months that was not "mean"????? You do NOT have to act like an ass hole but you should not be coddling her or worrying about her tears. i am going to tell you again what you are seeing now is absolutely NOT unique behavior in any way once they know their apologies, lying, and manipulation is not having the desired effect.

Now the polygraph. So lets start
(1) only yes or no questions. No open ended questions that require explanation
(2) you are usually allowed four or five questions
(3) interview the examiner and they should be able to help you craft the questions
(4) do not discuss it or give her any hints. 
(5) once it is scheduled you sit her down CALMLY and tell her that if there is anything else she has done that you do not know that now is the time to tell you. You make NO commitments or promises, but you just tell her you would rather hear it from her than from the examiner.
(6) no matter what she tells you, you do the test. Many times they will release another bit of information and then swear it is all there is hoping you will then be satisfied and cancel the test.
(7) you MUST make a plan for what you will do if she passes, and what you will do if she fails. You do not let her believe if she passes, all is forgiven. Then just maybe you continue on with staying with her for a while. Many of them thing if they pass they are "home free".

QUESTIONS
(1) have you had any sexual activity with anyone other than OM since married to CAM.
(2) have to broken NC and been in contact in any manner with OM since D Day
(3) do you have any e mail accounts or are you registered for any apps that Cam is not aware of
(4) have you brought him into our home or marital bed
(5) do any of your girlfriends know what you were doing and/or with who

Theres a start. The examiner can fine tune them.

Cam,

Making up your mind will get easier when you know the truth. Right from the beginning I knew and other knew you did not. And I am going to tell you for the third time that you need to know which of her girlfriends or your mutual friends or co workers were encouraging or knew what she was doing. That must DISAPPEAR from your life and she should be more than willing to do that.

No one should be telling you to divorce or try R. But do not take this crying crap as any sign on anything. The next d Day is not less hurtful than the first one. She is NOT remorseful. She is one sorry WW who was having a blast and never thought she would get caught. You got nothing but lies and deceit . Do not forget that over the use of a couple of boxes of Kleenex.


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## OnTheRocks

Why do a poly now? Do you still want to reconcile?


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## thenub

That up there^^^ if you're going ahead with the divorce there's no need for a poly and she'll probably say no to it because you are going ahead. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sokillme

thenub said:


> That up there^^^ if you're going ahead with the divorce there's no need for a poly and she'll probably say no to it because you are going ahead.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There is never any downside in having as much information as possible. The more you know the better strategically you are set up to make the correct decision. He still will have this woman in his life for the rest of her's or his.


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## barbados

cAM,

regarding the Poly, I would stick to questions regarding if she has ever cheated before, even while dating before marriage. You seem to have all the relevant info regarding the current A. As others have said, I would want to know if she ever had POSOM in your house, your car etc to have sex.


Also, the suicide thing is total manipulation. Again, another very scary trait your WW is showing you, just like how it was scary that she could lead a double life so easily. You need to consider this very carefully.

I know if it was me I would not R with a person like her, but its your life, not mine. Good luck.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

If I could make a suggestion, Why don't you consider to go out and have a few beers tonight and relax and just tell her you're going out. If she ask where you going say out. Make her wonder what you're up to.


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## mickybill

So, since her affair was blown up, and the OM tossed her aside there's nothing to live for? Except for the kids of course....Her sister should call 911 if she says it again or acts like weird.


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## Bibi1031

Things have really changed course in just one month. You are beginning to realize that this marriage may indeed end and you are not the devastated one this time. 

Your children love you, they know it is really mom's issue that will cause the family ti break apart. You can and will heal Cam42. You need to help your children heal as well. 

The more time passes, the less you will accept your wife's choices that will eventually destroy the love you had for her. She caused this, not you!

She may very well have killed the marriage, but you need to strengthen your relationship with your kids. They are solid, the marriage and her are not.

Start working on your new YOU and your new, stronger relationship with your kids. Your WS has her own journey to deal with. In the end, I think you will let her go. Too much damage has occurred and a completely new marriage would have to be built in order to heal from this terrible devastation. You will realize that you are better off alone than with her as a wife.


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## straightshooter

Cam,

I went back and reread your posts only and the things I believe are going to make it very difficult for you to reconcile with her are

(1) the humiliation you felt when you stated that she had been constantly texting and giggling with her girlfriends. You can pretty well take it to the bank that most if not all of her "crew" knew exactly what she was doing and were probably egging her on for the "juicy" details. That is very common these days because there is a narrative out there that men do not leave and will eventually "suck it up". She did not have an illicit "quiet" solitary affair. She was having a blast and her girlfriends were more than willing to cover it up. Hence, all the extra frequent texts and laughter. She was probably telling them about her latest "exploit". You mentioned you were going to expose it to her friends. They all know, but expose it anyway and let them know, especially the ones who were with her that night she went prancing out, that they are not welcome in your home. And if necessary tell their husbands why. When a crowd like this knows what is going on there is a good chance some of the others were cheating also. I am not telling you to bother but if you are inclined there is a thread by GARY on SI whose marriage ended basically because his wife never felt any remorse because all her girlfriends encouraged what she did and would giggle on the phone with her.
(2) it is going to take you an eternity to get out of your mind that you know for a fact that even after D Day she had no intention of ending it. Him leaving the job would not have ended it had his wife not caught him, and you would be in total clueless mode. Your wife was absolutely going to continue having sex with him, and her main regret initially had nothing to do with you but rather losing her boyfriend. You even stated you felt that.
(3) her reactions were not to come clean but to manipulate you with sex.

Now one can say that is typical and people do reconcile from that. Probably also true. But it depends what your idea of reconciliation is. If it means living under the same roof and for years getting a knot in your stomach every time she gets made up and goes out, then get ready fof that. Some would call that reconciliation. She should be searching and reading without you telling her to EVERY thing she could possibly do but instead you get an offer for a BJ and "lets get back to normal". Notice I am not mentioning the tears and other crap you are getting now since she got the divorce papers. Insulate yourself from it. It means nothing in the long term prognosis.

You still have no real answers on the questions I suggested in your request for polygraph questions so if you R it is going to be totally on "faith", which is not a great basis when a WW like your just does it for the "fun".
But if you go that route, what are YOUR expectations????? Is her promising you not to bang anyone else enough???? 

She offers to do "anything" but offers NOTHING specific. So what does ANYTHING mean to her. I am afraid that if you curtail her normal life now that OM is supposedly gone, shortly you will then be called "controlling" and she will start to feel "punished" if she has to get rid of some of her friends or be accountable for where she is and with whom.

You have a lot of thinking to do before you make any FINAL decisions. And all the advice here can't do it for you. But you do not stay for the kids. You said it and you will not be a great Dad being miserable and living with someone for years that you cannot trust further than you can throw her.


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## NoChoice

cam42 said:


> So she was served today at her workplace, I'm not proud of it. You can guess my phone was being blown up immediately of her texting, calling, getting her mother to call me (who is also pissed at her). She came home from work and was looking for me. To be honest I was sitting in a parking lot just staring off into space, I didn't know how to feel. She's confessed to our children, she's been going to therapy, is acting apologetic. I still can't believe I filed, feels so strange. WW said she is a "****ed up person" for what she put me and our children through and will do anything for reconciliation but will give me the divorce if I want it. Since the other man is out of the picture she wants to go to MC soon, I let her know I will be moving forward with the divorce and will observe her behavior. She's devastated, she is now looking to get anti-depressants. I've never seen her cry so much, *I wish I wasn't causing those tears* but she did put this upon herself. I'm not 100% sure I'm going through with the divorce. We did not also go out to valentines day together, for the time being I see us as roommates unless she can prove she's worthy to be my spouse. I'm starting to finally pick myself out of this darkness, thank you everyone.


OP, have you considered this carefully? IF your WW is truly remorseful and genuinely recognizes and acknowledges what her actions have done, is it not good that you are the cause of her tears? Is she crying for the OM? Doe she feel a sense of horrific loss over the end of the A? If you are the cause of her tears, and if they are indeed genuine, then I would see that as encouraging. Someone posted and asked if you could see spending the next 40 years with her and I posit the question in reverse. IF she is sincere in her feelings, can you see spending the next 40 years without her?




cam42 said:


> True to everything posted above. I'm done with her ****. I texted her that most likely were going to get a divorce so let's sign the agreements and get the ball rolling. She blew up my phone again and I told her I'm not going to discuss this over text. I have now got a call from her sister saying that my wife told if it wasn't for our kids she would want to be dead while sobbing, she doesn't blame me she said she's just worried about her. I don't want to be mean to her, even though she was absolutely secretly cruel for six months straight. I wish I could make up my mind, but I want to take advantage of her not wanting anything for my own advantage.
> 
> She did not make the death comment to me, I don't think she is suicidal. I know she wouldn't because she loves our kids. I have told the OM's wife that I filed, she thanked for me for telling her and thinks she might go down the same path so yeah.
> 
> Anyone have good questions to ask for a poly? I want to get one down now for sure within this week, I'm done putting it off.


In regards to her alluding to wanting to be dead consider this; I have stated many times that almost all WSs are mentally underdeveloped and therefore less able to cope with their own "choices". Therefore, when inundated with the consequences of their deeds they become overwhelmed. Their lack of a more developed cognitive ability causes a rush of emotions that they cannot process and address so they, true to their nature, look for the "easy" way out. She did the same thing with the A. Instead of facing what was really wrong with her relationship, formulating possible solutions and implementing them, as a thoughtful person would, she took the easy path. This is what I meant when I said earlier that being with a person of limited intellect forces the spouse to assume the role, in a very real way, of quasi-parent. It is a difficult route to take and only you can decide if it is worth it.

Right now your W is a frightened child whose "parents" are quite upset. She, as most children do, fears the disciplinary consequences. In the end we all act selfishly, it is our nature and a result of sentience. You are acting now, not wholly unselfishly. You are protecting yourself from pain, loss and further greif. The only difference is that you are doing it with reason and rationale, thinking out your actions and contemplating your next move. Your W is not capable of that. You are proactive in your manners, she is reactive. You carefully weigh your options, she acts without due thought and then has to react to the consequences.

Lastly, I have but one question that I would ask during polygraph questioning and that is "do you desire with all of your being to remain in this relationship with me and are you willing to put forth the effort to assure that we never end up here again, yes or no?". However, keep in mind that, as with any child, her answer may not be as carefully thought out and deeply contemplated as yours would be. She was asked this question once before by a minister and gave an answer that was not carefully considered. Think on this as you move forward and understand that this is the reality of your situation.


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## drifting on

Cam42

What has happened to you now is that your eyes are seeing what they couldn't see before. By that I mean this, you now see your wife as human, fallible, and not perfect as you saw before. Before she was a goddess who floated when she walked, fluent and smooth in everything she did, and now you see she really never was as good as you thought. You didn't do anything wrong, you loved her with every ounce of your being, she failed you. And with that being said its good you see her this way. 

So now you have to view your wife off the pedestal. Now you will see her true being, all her flaws exposed to you. Hopefully you have not made your decision yet, because it will change and you will be filled with doubt. Now is when you say that divorce and reconciliation are both on the table, it is in her actions to prove to you without any doubt, that this marriage is what she wants. Give her a list of boundaries she can't ever break. You need to see past all that she did to you, you need to see all that she did to the marriage, you need to see past what she did to her children. 

Your mind needs to be clear, for the next six months you need to evaluate her. You need to see true remorse, you need to see clear actions she is for the marriage, you need to trust but verify the words she says to you. For my mind to be clear I had to tell my wife her words meant nothing. All I heard was I'm sorry and I love you. After telling her the words were just words, actions came in loud and clear. My wife's affair was brutal on me, brutal to many posters here, but with remorse, actions, and quite a bit of work things can change. It is on you now to see if your wife has it in her to show you how badly she chose. It is on her to show you this will not occur again. It is on her to own her crap if you will. Basically, she has six months to become half of what you originally thought she was. That's a tall order Cam, and many WS are not up to the task. In fact I would say your wife is dangerously close to having you made your choice to divorce. She has only shown regret in my opinion and from what you have posted, I don't know if that regret is applied to you or OM. 

As for the poly, I agree to do it, but find a poly examiner who works with police departments. You need expierience in this field to get the best results, so find a good examiner. Once you have that secured, tell your wife the night before the poly and to stay away from the Internet. The morning of, I believe you will find this affair may be worse then she's admitting. By this I mean she will have done things for him she wouldn't do for you. 

Your end goal is to do what is best for you Cam, I am simply trying to help with the navigating of the waters. I posted quite a bit of information on reconciliation in a thread by ckone, you may wish to search out his thread. I will tell you it's long but some very good information posted there as well. 

Polygraph questions should be short and direct. Have a clear understanding of what infidelity is between you and your wife first. Such as kissing is against the rules, groping is against the rules, oral sex is considered full sex, etc.. 
You can talk to her casually about this and then remind her of the conversation the morning of the poly. 

Questions for poly.
Did you have sex with anyone but Cam since wedding?
If yes, how many?
Did you want a divorce?
How long would affair have continued? 
Do you love OM? 
Did you do sex acts with OM and not with Cam? 
Did you have sex with OM then come home and have sex with Cam? 
Did you ever love OM more then me? 
Do you want to be with OM?
If we divorce are you going back to OM? 
Have you gone no contact with OM? 
When was last contact with OM?


Best of luck Cam.


----------



## sokillme

NoChoice said:


> This is what I meant when I said earlier that being with a person of limited intellect forces the spouse to assume the role, in a very real way, of quasi-parent. It is a difficult route to take and only you can decide if it is worth it.


I find it difficult to think of anything more unappealing than that. The man already has kids.



> she is reactive. You carefully weigh your options, she acts without due thought and then has to react to the consequences.


Except for the elaborate lies, planning and sneaking around. I think you are giving her a crutch. Why do you just dispel the idea that there was malice in what she did. How did this women operate in the worlds if she has the mental capacity of a 10 year old. Presumably this kind of mentally would be affecting every area of her life, like say her job, and other relationships. 

Her desires really don't matter as much as his do. 

Cam don't tell her friends, *tell her friend's husbands,* also tell them that you know she was in contact with some of them and giggling about it. Do it on the sly.


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## Malaise

sokillme said:


> I find it difficult to think of anything more unappealing than that. The man already has kids.
> 
> Cam don't tell her friends, *tell her friend's husbands,* also tell them that you know she was in contact with some of them and giggling about it. Do it on the sly.


The husbands may want to know about their wives casual attitude with adultery.


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## sokillme

drifting on said:


> So now you have to view your wife off the pedestal. Now you will see her true being, all her flaws exposed to you. Hopefully you have not made your decision yet, because it will change and you will be filled with doubt.


Just don't let this new found humanity be a crutch for her. Some have much more worse flaws then others. Emotionally dangerous flaws. Flaws that repeat and end up distroying their most important relationships and family. Many of us do not. Remember that. There are plenty of women out there who would never do this. That reading this thread makes them repulsed. You can see it by the posters. 




drifting on said:


> You need to see past all that she did to you, you need to see all that she did to the marriage, you need to see past what she did to her children.


I respectfully disagree. Now is the time to focus on that precisely because you will never truly be able to see past it, you will have to live with it. How many posts, I think even linked on this thread, where the BS is still hurt by it even 10 years later. There is one I know I posted in this section where the gist is it never goes away you just learn to live with it. Almost all the replies from Rs agree with that assessment. Even in your recent thread [drifting on] you deal with these feelings. Now is not the time to look past them, now is the time to embrace them and see if you can live with them. If you decide to R then yes you need to look past them. They are never going to go away completely as long as you stay with this women. It's obvious as even those who have had the best R say that. 

You really need to use this time to get them all out and then decide if you can live with them. Way to many BS just jump back into R without even thinking about all the pain they are going to feel and for how long. They just want to go back to the dream of what they thought they had. In the end that seems to be part or the torture. You can't go back, it doesn't go away. 

As always though [drifting on] presents a very good argument for the other side. @drifting on - Respect.


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## JohnA

@Malaise. YES!!!! Any spouse who discovers their spouse knew, helped cover-up, "giggled" needs to immediately read http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html and act on it. 

Review common red flags

Red flags*

Sex life dropped off noticeably
Passwords on phone and computer
Much more time on line...fakebook.
More GNOs...staying out later.
Less eye contact and holding hands...much less physical contact.
Less communication.
Staying up late on computer.
Dressing more provocative
More shopping-spending...clothes.
3 hour groceries shopping trips
Gasoline use and mileage went up
Generally disconnected from family.
New friends that I wasn't introduced to
Cell/text usage went up...way up.
New hair style and attention to makeup
Started exercising more.
Secretive about whereabouts during contact
She would become annoyed easily with me.
Household responsibilities dropped way off.
ecame more forgetful in general
A noticable distancing from her family.
Much more waxing...trimming...shaving....not for me.

Some do not apply as you said she is initiating sex more often. *There are reasons some women do this, *Do a search along with the other search I suggested.*

Consider 12 toxic elements*


Lying to or hiding things from your partner
Withholding any kind of affection
Harboring quiet resentment
Lack of communication
Being stubborn about things or getting entrenched in certain positions
Bickering about mundane daily issues and chores
Condescension
Staying in a relationship out of convenience
Manipulation
Jealousy
Presenting a false version of yourself at the beginning.*
Staying together because you've become codependent

Read not just friends by Shirely Glass.

After carefully reviewing all the above discuss frankly why the spouse did not react negativity. Consider if the answer warrants staying married to the spouse and be blunt at this point you are doing so, and suggest/demand MC to discuss the topic. (after speaking to several and funds one that will engage on this subject and help review your marriage)


----------



## JohnA

Again keep it casual and discrete until your review is done.


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## drifting on

sokillme said:


> Just don't let this new found humanity be a crutch for her. Some have much more worse flaws then others. Emotionally dangerous flaws. Flaws that repeat and end up distroying their most important relationships and family. Many of us do not. Remember that. There are plenty of women out there who would never do this. That reading this thread makes them repulsed. You can see it by the posters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I respectfully disagree. Now is the time to focus on that precisely because you will never truly be able to see past it, you will have to live with it. How many posts, I think even linked on this thread, where the BS is still hurt by it even 10 years later. There is one I know I posted in this section where the gist is it never goes away you just learn to live with it. Almost all the replies from Rs agree with that assessment. Even in your recent thread [drifting on] you deal with these feelings. Now is not the time to look past them, now is the time to embrace them and see if you can live with them. If you decide to R then yes you need to look past them. They are never going to go away completely as long as you stay with this women. It's obvious as even those who have had the best R say that.
> 
> You really need to use this time to get them all out and then decide if you can live with them. Way to many BS just jump back into R without even thinking about all the pain they are going to feel and for how long. They just want to go back to the dream of what they thought they had. In the end that seems to be part or the torture. You can't go back, it doesn't go away.
> 
> As always though [drifting on] presents a very good argument for the other side. @drifting on - Respect.




I should have stated if you decide to reconcile you will need to see past. However, I now see my post could have caused harm by not stating if you decide to reconcile. What I am trying to push Cam towards is to wait until all his emotions have subsided some and he is in a calm rational state when he decides. I felt if I added to see past if you reconcile that it may have Cam thinking to reconcile. This decision can only be made by him and be for his best interest. I wasn't clear and therefore I am glad @sokillme caught this error. I also have much respect for you and your posts. 

As for reconciling, infidelity is not something that you can not just dismiss. It takes years to overcome, and I just started year three. Of course I have pain sometimes, triggers or moments of sadness. But these have gotten to be less and not nearly as painful as the first two years. But it's a process, one you can't take shortcuts, or avoid issues, everything will soon see the light of day.


----------



## alte Dame

Your description makes me think that your WW feels regret but not remorse. Regret is feeling pain for oneself, while remorse is pain for the pain one has caused others. These aren't mutually exclusive, no doubt, but it is very common to feel regret without really dialing in to the pain caused to others.

It sounds to me like your WW backgrounded you as she had her exciting adventure with the OM. She had it all at that point - the sexy, attentive OM and the reliable BH at home with the kids. Cake-eating 101.

Now she has nothing. Do you think that her tears are for your pain and what you have lost? I seriously doubt it. It's her pain for herself that has her in a fetal position.

I think you had to file in order to bring it home to her that you and your family are not the stage that she acts out her life on. Now she sees it and it's a real 2X4. If she can go to IC and work to find her empathy and remorse, then at the very least she can rebuild her humanity. Perhaps you can consider R at that point.

In the meantime, I would suggest she read 'How to Help your Spouse Heal from your A,' by McDonald. I know there was a debate here about SI, but I also think it might help her to help your healing if she posted in the Wayward forum on SI. Some of the people that are currently there actually hold the WS's feet to the fire, imo.

(And, I agree with all here that the enabling friends need to go. They are probably this very minute in high, enabling dudgeon about 'what her terrible H is doing to her with his actions.')


----------



## drifting on

Cam

Here is the approach I took for what it's worth to you. I was brutal on my wife in the beginning. Then I came to realize that the boys still need their mom. It was at this point I treated her as a human being, but my emotions and feelings were absent towards her. I hurt more then ever before, and we started MC. This was a mistake I made, to work on the marriage before myself. But MC was helpful, and soon I was in IC to fix myself. In IC I finally understood I would be ok on my own, and that enabled forgiveness to begin to move. With or without my wife, I knew I would be ok. That was huge for me, my first feeling of finding myself again. 

Working on the marriage is difficult, but soon it became easier. Coupled with my wife's remorse and actions to move mountains for me also helped. My wife worked very hard, still does, but she got hit hard with her own remorse. You need to keep in mind her affair ended two and a half years before d-day. This is how her remorse was seen by me so quickly, she had time to process everything and I had just been killed. 

Your wife as said in posts before this is regretful. Remorse takes time to settle in, and once it does you will know it. Your wife would still possibly be in this affair if it hadn't been for your friend, keep that person close to you. But if your wife would still be in the affair if not for getting caught, she is regretful. She's still doing damage control. The comments of if it weren't for the kids she'd commit suicide is a ploy for attention. If you are suicidal, and I was, you say nothing. Your wife says if it weren't for the kids, she's saying she would rather be dead, but won't for the kids, that's not suicidal. I would still keep a close watch on her and some may disagree with what I've said, but most say nothing. Even if she made an attempt I believe it would be for attention, not to actually kill herself. 

If any of her friends or co-workers knew of this affair she needs to give you their names. These people are then eliminated from your life and hers. They are toxic to your marriage, they are enablers for not telling you, and they will do the same thing again. So get rid of them, for good. 

I hope you care for your kids at this time. Be there for them and let them know what is going on. You don't have to tell them of each discussion, but they need to know where you are at. Don't keep them in the dark, keep them involved so they don't feel isolated.


----------



## straightshooter

alte Dame said:


> Your description makes me think that your WW feels regret but not remorse. Regret is feeling pain for oneself, while remorse is pain for the pain one has caused others. These aren't mutually exclusive, no doubt, but it is very common to feel regret without really dialing in to the pain caused to others.
> 
> It sounds to me like your WW backgrounded you as she had her exciting adventure with the OM. She had it all at that point - the sexy, attentive OM and the reliable BH at home with the kids. Cake-eating 101.
> 
> Now she has nothing. Do you think that her tears are for your pain and what you have lost? I seriously doubt it. It's her pain for herself that has her in a fetal position.
> 
> I think you had to file in order to bring it home to her that you and your family are not the stage that she acts out her life on. Now she sees it and it's a real 2X4. If she can go to IC and work to find her empathy and remorse, then at the very least she can rebuild her humanity. Perhaps you can consider R at that point.
> 
> In the meantime, I would suggest she read 'How to Help your Spouse Heal from your A,' by McDonald.* I know there was a debate here about SI, but I also think it might help her to help your healing if she posted in the Wayward forum on SI. Some of the people that are currently there actually hold the WS's feet to the fire, imo.*
> 
> *(And, I agree with all here that the enabling friends need to go. They are probably this very minute in high, enabling dudgeon about 'what her terrible H is doing to her with his actions.')*


*
*


Cam,

I would hold off on sending your wife to SI. For a few reasons
(1) if she does not give the the total truth, which she still has not given you, the advice will be meaningless and while there are some truly helpful FWW on there, there are also too many who will tell her to grieve losing her boyfriend.
(2) until you decide to R or D, YOU are the one who needs advice and whom you should be concerned about. Again, you still do not know who else was involved and knew about her affair, you do not truly know for sure if even after the five days she still was in contact with him, you do not know if they are contacting each other at this moment, and you do not know if she has ever cheated before.
ALL OF THAT CAN BE CONFIRMED WITH A POLYGRAPH, one way or the other. 

If she has broken NC, which in her distraught state and his is something that happens often if they both feel like "victims", do you really give a crap what book she reads.?????

There IS a guy on SI called BIGGER. I am sure some of the other ex SI folks know who i am talking about. He is a kind of legend there, ex law enforcement guy BH. He just posted that he has read some articles that state a WW that has cheated once is 5 times more likely to do it again. I think that applies to you to pay attention to for a couple of reasons. 

(1) your wife was not denying you sex, was not demonizing you, was not complaining to you, and even after D Day did not try to blame you for anything.* SHE DID IT FOR FUN!!!*. You even stated she just got bored with marriage.
(2) please pay attention to this. Women who either confess when confronted with the total truth or close to it, who proactively take the steps and resist nothing, and who voluntarily eliminate all toxic friends or social circles, are the best candidates for R. Your wife has done NONE OF THAT until filed, and even now as alte Dame just told you, is totally disorientated not because of love for you but because of this little adventure not working out the way she though it would.

Remember, cheaters NEVER think they will be caught. I am sure if she is this distraught, her "posse" knows she has been caught. And you can bet your 401K that 50% of them or more are telling her just to hold on and that you will not leave and will get over it. Some of them also have probably been advising her to deny, deny, deny when you thought it was emotional. And you can rest assured that anything you do now is going to be considered by her friends as vindictive and controlling. That is why they need to be eliminated.

No one knows how this will turn out. You need to hold your ground Cam, and watch and wait. You will get better results if she truly believes she has lost you than if she believes you are backsliding.

And again, the OM wife was grateful to you for advising her your filed. Did you ask her to please notify you if her husband is aware you filed??? That is important because if that occurs your wife has then spoken to him since you filed. Would that be acceptable to you??? If the answer is no, then you need to find out.


----------



## cam42

SI is surviving infidelity correct? She knows what that is and I am pretty sure she has made an account. I doubt she has posted there though. She spoke about joining. It will NEVER be possible for me to look past all of this. If we reconcile it will be a totally different relationship and I let her know that. She has said that she will "do anything" such as take a poly, go to therapy, go to mc, expose it to everyone which has already been done. She said at first she missed the OM, now she doesn't miss him at all. Her only concern according to her is saving our marriage or making the divorce as easy as she can for me and our kids. She talked about weddings, graduations, for our kids that she couldn't bare spending any of that with anyone else but me. I was told she did not say that to guilt me into R, she's just so disgusted that she destroyed the possibility of that and that our whole marriage now has a dark phase just because she was horribly selfish and disgusting. She has told me just to say the word and she'll quit her job just so she can focus all her time on fixing what she has destroyed. 

Now I am torn, she has done everything I have asked but it's very difficult for me to look passed this. I told her to her face I don't want her quitting cause she may need her job if we divorce. She is very panicky has told me and her therapist that she is having trouble sleeping. I will ask my girls if they would like to go to a therapy session with her again, I don't want her to be messed up mentally if we divorce. People if my wife was horrible or cruel to me before this I wouldn't even be thinking about R, but she was the most unselfish person honestly, she put everyone else first including me. What she did was horrible, selfish, and disgusting to me and our family. 

We are doing a Poly this week, the outcome of this may very well determine what happens in our relationship.


----------



## AtMyEnd

I'm going through the same thing. I caught her texting, him sexual, her responsive and somewhat suggestive. She's been trying to throw it back on me. She insists nothing went past the texts and she's making me out to be the bad person more accusing her. The last thing I want is a divorce and I don't know what to do anymore.


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## drifting on

AtMyEnd said:


> I'm going through the same thing. I caught her texting, him sexual, her responsive and somewhat suggestive. She's been trying to throw it back on me. She insists nothing went past the texts and she's making me out to be the bad person more accusing her. The last thing I want is a divorce and I don't know what to do anymore.




My first suggestion is to start your own thread so we can get the full story to give you advice about how to handle this. The second suggestion is that since its your fault tell her you are going to do the same as her. Texting sexual things to another female and being suggestive. When she objects, tell her to shut her mouth and blame her.


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## stillthinking

> making the divorce as easy as she can for me and our kids.


Good. You can use that sediment and get a favorable divorce settlement.

Try to keep in mind that the woman who was so great to you, before screwing another man, is gone. The person they are before is killed the moment they have sex with another. Not saying she is evil. Just that she was evil to you. And thus, is more than capable of being evil to you again.

Slight tangent....the R at all cost crowd will state that there is no guarantee that a new partner will not cheat. This is true. There is always a chance. But, and this is a big but, this woman has PROVEN that she is a cheater. There is not potential to cheat. There is actual cheating. She is a known quantity.

Stay strong. You are doing awesome. 

They always feel terrible after getting caught. After the divorce papers get served. After the sex. After the blowjobs. After the orgasms. Not so much before. Tons after. I bet she is really, really, REALLY sorry about asking you if she looked hot before leaving to has sex with her lover. 

I am of the opinion that if she really wants you, she will agree to a D. Give you the space you need. And then if you want her back you can date and marry her again. But the reason most cheaters to not go for that is they know, that once you get a taste of life without a cheater, the chances of you coming back are slim to none.

What are you planning on asking her at the poly? What could be revealed that would tip you toward R? I ask because if you really think that you cannot get over what she did, why spend money on a poly?


----------



## sokillme

cam42 said:


> SI is surviving infidelity correct? She knows what that is and I am pretty sure she has made an account. I doubt she has posted there though. She spoke about joining. It will NEVER be possible for me to look past all of this. If we reconcile it will be a totally different relationship and I let her know that. She has said that she will "do anything" such as take a poly, go to therapy, go to mc, expose it to everyone which has already been done. She said at first she missed the OM, now she doesn't miss him at all. Her only concern according to her is saving our marriage or making the divorce as easy as she can for me and our kids. She talked about weddings, graduations, for our kids that she couldn't bare spending any of that with anyone else but me. I was told she did not say that to guilt me into R, she's just so disgusted that she destroyed the possibility of that and that our whole marriage now has a dark phase just because she was horribly selfish and disgusting. She has told me just to say the word and she'll quit her job just so she can focus all her time on fixing what she has destroyed.
> 
> Now I am torn, she has done everything I have asked but it's very difficult for me to look passed this. I told her to her face I don't want her quitting cause she may need her job if we divorce. She is very panicky has told me and her therapist that she is having trouble sleeping. I will ask my girls if they would like to go to a therapy session with her again, I don't want her to be messed up mentally if we divorce. People if my wife was horrible or cruel to me before this I wouldn't even be thinking about R, but she was the most unselfish person honestly, she put everyone else first including me. What she did was horrible, selfish, and disgusting to me and our family.
> 
> We are doing a Poly this week, the outcome of this may very well determine what happens in our relationship.


You can't stay with her because she is suffering. That is the wrong reason. Besides that she will eventually learn to live with the new reality she created. Can you? You should not accept less out of some misplaced loyalty. Remember she was not loyal to you. If you notice all her words are about how this affects her. Well she did this. What about how this affects you? By the way did you ask her if the other man had left his wife would she have been able to stand celebrating all those events without you. Your wife is a master manipulator, continually. I don't think it matters what she was before because that person is dead. You will always know now what she is capable of. Honestly it sounds like she just was going to do this behind your back and hope you never found out, or spring it on you when the OM left his wife. Remind yourself of that when she gives you the woe is me routine. 

Proceed at your own risk.


----------



## sokillme

AtMyEnd said:


> The last thing I want is a divorce and I don't know what to do anymore.


Your wife knows this and uses it as an hammer over you head. Never love someone enough to let them take advantage of you. If you do they will.


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## sokillme

stillthinking said:


> They always feel terrible after getting caught. After the divorce papers get served. After the sex. After the blowjobs. After the orgasms. Not so much before. Tons after. I bet she is really, really, REALLY sorry about asking you if she looked hot before leaving to has sex with her lover.


This is true and what should always be added to this is probably half the population feel terrible just thinking about doing something like that and would never do it period. That's the difference. Not everyone could do this to the ones they love or who love them. Even with the worst problems. Worse then being bored like she was.


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## ABHale

Cam you need to figure out if you can stay with her with what she has done. Then go from there.


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## eric1

Cam,

You don't need to rush a decision. Just keep the divorce rolling and see where you stand in a few weeks.

You're doing great. It's been awhile but you're still digesting the facts.

You don't need a marriage counselor at this point. What you need is a great individual counselor who will help you work through the emotions so that you can make the best decision possible for you and your young ones


----------



## eric1

sokillme said:


> This is true and what should always be added to this is probably half the population feel terrible just thinking about doing something like that and would never do it period. That's the difference. Not everyone could do this to the ones they love or who love them. Even with the worst problems. Worse then being bored like she was.




The concerning thing for me, beyond the insulting disrespect, is that she and her boyfriend had begun to parallel holidays. It was clear that New Years was an important holiday so if the actual night wasn't available for them then she needed to celebrate with him, correctly, in some way.

Sharpshooters advice still needs to be taken. I'm sure she will swear none of her friends were complicit but that's because she's not remorseful. One or more of her friends were prepared to cover for her that night.


----------



## sokillme

eric1 said:


> The concerning thing for me, beyond the insulting disrespect, is that she and her boyfriend had begun to parallel holidays. It was clear that New Years was an important holiday so if the actual night wasn't available for them then she needed to celebrate with him, correctly, in some way.
> 
> Sharpshooters advice still needs to be taken. I'm sure she will swear none of her friends were complicit but that's because she's not remorseful. One or more of her friends were prepared to cover for her that night.


I think her friends knew as well. One of them probably didn't like it because remember it was a friend who tipped him off. I don't believe the story that the friend saw them. I bet there is one person in her circle who was secretly discussed and tipped him off.


----------



## drifting on

Cam

I've been noticing how you have been feeling bad about what is happening with your wife. How you feel because she cried with being served divorce papers and saying they were tears you caused. How she has done everything you've asked her to do, yet you feel bad. The reason that you feel this way is because you love your wife. I was the same way, I filled out divorce papers, I filed them with my lawyer, but not in the court. The reason is because our situations are different, my wife's affair ended two and a half years before d-day. Your situation is your wife's affair just ended, but both of our wives needed to feel that shock. It has worked, for both of us, to get our wives to see the consequences.

Do you remember when I said you need to come to the point that you will be ok without her? You aren't there yet, and the above is your proof, you still want to protect her. This means that you are leaning towards reconciliation, your love is keeping you from knowing if you will be ok without her. Your current situation is precarious, and you don't want to be here. You need IC to heal yourself to the point that you are secure with yourself. That you know you will be ok without her. Once you know this you will then know if you can get past what she has done. Self reflect Cam, learn yourself, then be the best Cam you can be. 

I did many things wrong in the beginning. You have done quite well, far better then most actually, and some of that credit comes from reading here. Only some credit comes from here Cam, you have chosen wisely from the posts written, but remember you have done the work. That is why TAM has only some credit, it's your work that has you in a good position at the moment. While it's true it sucks to be here, you have done well. 

What you need to do now is discuss the affair three times per week for forty five minutes. During these talks there is no anger, no defensiveness, nothing but the hard truth. If any anger or defensive is shown the talk is shut down. Schedule these talks during the week, when you have time and are alone without interruptions. Learn about the affair, learn about your wife, learn about you, and learn about your marriage. It's obvious you aren't perfect, nobody is, so what did you bring into the marriage that was toxic. 

This is what I've been trying to convey to you, you need to self reflect to see the entire picture of your life and marriage. After six months you will be in a clear surrounding to make a rational choice. It's only normal to feel you can't get past what she has done, but the divorce is moving and waiting six months will give the clarity you need. If after six months you feel you can't get past the affair you tell her. You tell her your decision so you can both move forward toward being healthy. This is why you wait, I'm sure you've had moments you want to be with her, and moments that you can't stand the thought of being with her, and it's because you are on an emotional roller coaster. So be patient, show your daughters how to be strong and that you make rational decisions based from reality. 

You are going to be having emotional swings that will basically amaze you. From sadness to anger to pure rage to hopelessness. Discuss this in IC to help guide you through these stages, so you don't become stuck in a stage. I would not start MC for a minimum of at least three months, but reality is you will need to do MC. You will need MC so you can both co-parent with each other successfully if you choose divorce. 

If you would like you may pm me any time. Best of luck Cam.


----------



## Grapes

I agree with you cam. take advantage of it all. Get everything in order and signed as quickly as possible. Tell her she has until the D date to prove she is worth keeping.

number 1 priority is to get the sigs on a favorable settlement. 

Decide to stay or go after - take advantage.


----------



## Graywolf2

cam42 said:


> She is very panicky has told me and her therapist that she is having trouble sleeping.


I'm sure she is and it’s not an act. Think of her as a bank robber that was having the time of her life robbing banks. It was exciting until she was caught. Now she is in front of the judge (you) and could face 20 years in jail. How do you think anyone would act in this situation? Now she sincerely regrets ever robbing banks and will do anything not to go to jail. If she wasn’t caught she would still be robbing banks.


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## Graywolf2

cam42 said:


> Her only concern according to her is saving our marriage or making the divorce as easy as she can for me and our kids.


Take her up on her offer to get an amicable divorce. Afterwards you can date or even live together if you want. There is no stigma today for unmarried people living together.
Personally I would have a much easier time with R if I were divorced. Otherwise if I looked at my wife having a great time at a family event I might resent her. That’s because she’s doing exactly what she would be doing if she never cheated. 

If I had such a moment and were divorced I would just remind myself that we are no longer married and it would pass much more easily. 

I look at it as a sergeant in the army screwing up and losing a stripe. They paid a price and there is less reason to go over and over what they did. 
It’s also an easy way to keep some pride. “She cheated on him but they're divorced.” If she turns out to be great then grow old with her. If she cheats then everything is set to move on.


----------



## Evinrude58

Yep, 
Divorce and get a fair one. Then see if she's really who you want to spend your life with--/ not being under the gun of unknown financial and emotional terror, as a result of divorce .


----------



## Bibi1031

Yes, her fog is lifting. She knows it's all her fault for being selfish and self absorbed. Once she decided to listen to her selfish side, all that she did went down the toilet. That is what happens when we only think about us and screw anyone else that gets in the way. 

Very painful lesson she placed on every member of her family (you and the kids). We are all human and are the worst of the animal species because we can so darn easily hurt the ones we are supposed to love the most. We are IMO the most selfish creatures this universe has created.

Now you know the shortcomings even loving spouse like your once great wife has. She is now truly sorry. She is beginning to be who she was before this mess. She has a ways to go. 

Now, it's all about YOU. Your journey began with dday. What is it that you want? Can you live with what she did which will have ripple effects on the kids' choices in the near future, on you, and of course on her? The marriage has been shattered and can't be rebuilt on the same grounds. A new one has to occur. How can this new one be built against human selfishness to avoid it getting shattered again?

Can you truly love her, forgive her, TRUST her, and start new; clean slate so to speak?

There if no rush with the above question, but you do need to realize what your lines in the sand are. Your journey has new choices and truths that you didn't even think about before. Time to start figuring out what you will need after this bomb hit your home and family.


----------



## TDSC60

cam42 said:


> *People if my wife was horrible or cruel to me before this I wouldn't even be thinking about R, but she was the most unselfish person honestly, she put everyone else first including me.* What she did was horrible, selfish, and disgusting to me and our family.
> 
> We are doing a Poly this week, the outcome of this may very well determine what happens in our relationship.


You have to accept that your wife (the one who had the 6 month affair and was having sex and dating another man) was not honest. She chose to have fun before EVERYTHING else in her life. She was selfish and self centered in the most destructive manner.

The wife you describe in the above post is dead. Killed by the wife you have now. The wife you have now did those horrible and disgusting things to you and the kids. Do not confuse the two because even though they occupied the same physical body something in the mind changed over the years that allowed your current wife to do what she did.

The wife she was before the affair is gone. You need to mourn her death. But do not think that your current wife can turn on a dime and suddenly go back to being what you had before.

The sad truth, and what is hard to accept, is that once an affair goes physical, you can never go back.


----------



## Evinrude58

Until you kick her off the pedestal she's on in your mind, no chance of reconciliation.
What you expect the learn in the poly I'm not sure. She's a confessed, caught cheater.
What could you possibly learn?

Who cares how many times she cheated? She did it once. 
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice.....

But, good luck with the poly. 
She will flunk it, guaranteed.
She's not nearly done with the tangled web she's woven.


----------



## mickybill

I see she has offered to quit, are they both still working at the same place? 
People are saying she will need that job in case of D. She doesn;t need THAT job, but she needs A job. If she has a decent work history a judge or arbitrator will take that into consideration and not reward her by letting her stay home and collect alimony. 
Unless you have one of those marriages where H (or W) makes 85% of the money and the W (or H) has a "fun part-time job" to keep busy. 

A friend of mine works in the Miami courts system and she has perfected the response "...I am sorry to hear that, now you need to find another job, or two." Next case.

If they are still working together, that could be a problem if you are looking at R. If you divorce, not really your problem.


Good luck.


----------



## JohnA

Hi, 

This is what you avoided by exposing and honestly considering divorce: 

Wife told me she thinks we need a trial separation. - LoveShack.org Community Forums. He didn't like the advise he was getting so SurvivingInfidelity.com - Wife has been having an affair with a co-worker at her new job.

When you reconcile from a position of stenght chances are good it will take, from weakness the cycle repeats.


----------



## sokillme

JohnA said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is what you avoided by exposing and honestly considering divorce:
> 
> Wife told me she thinks we need a trial separation. - LoveShack.org Community Forums. He didn't like the advise he was getting so SurvivingInfidelity.com - Wife has been having an affair with a co-worker at her new job.
> 
> When you reconcile from a position of stenght chances are good it will take, from weakness the cycle repeats.


Damn. So he didn't take the advice and he still doesn't.


----------



## JohnA

Nope, he is limbo and will remain there until he moves decidedly to end the infidelity. If Jews and Christians have the ten commandments BS showed have their own version. 

The first commandment of BS should be:

THE INFIDELITY MUST END NOW: EITHER BY THE WS OR DIVORCE.


----------



## straightshooter

cam42 said:


> SI is surviving infidelity correct? She knows what that is and I am pretty sure she has made an account. I doubt she has posted there though. She spoke about joining. It will NEVER be possible for me to look past all of this. If we reconcile it will be a totally different relationship and I let her know that. She has said that she will "do anything" such as take a poly, go to therapy, go to mc,* expose it to everyone which has already been done. **She said at first she missed the OM, now she doesn't miss him at all. Her only concern according to her is saving our marriage or making the divorce as easy as she can for me and our kids.* She talked about weddings, graduations, for our kids that she couldn't bare spending any of that with anyone else but me. I was told she did not say that to guilt me into R, she's just so disgusted that she destroyed the possibility of that and that our whole marriage now has a dark phase just because she was horribly selfish and disgusting. She has told me just to say the word and she'll quit her job just so she can focus all her time on fixing what she has destroyed.
> 
> Now I am torn, she has done everything I have asked but it's very difficult for me to look passed this. I told her to her face I don't want her quitting cause she may need her job if we divorce. She is very panicky has told me and her therapist that she is having trouble sleeping. I will ask my girls if they would like to go to a therapy session with her again, I don't want her to be messed up mentally if we divorce. People if my wife was horrible or cruel to me before this I wouldn't even be thinking about R, but she was the most unselfish person honestly, she put everyone else first including me. What she did was horrible, selfish, and disgusting to me and our family.
> 
> We are doing a Poly this week, the outcome of this may very well determine what happens in our relationship.


Cam,

Has she ex[posed it to everyone???? You think so but do not know. Has she told you which of her girlfriends knew and were willing to cover for her? Has she told them she has been caught ?? Answer to that is probably yes and if so then you need to tell; her which of these friends is out of her life! You MUST understand that if OM gets booted out on his ass these so called friends that knew are how he will get in touch with your wife again, assuming and hoping you have him blocked on all other social media. You MUST KNOW if any of them were in on this that she was giggling with right on front of you.

it's real funny ( not really) how she is now willing to do anything to save her marriage, but after D Day was 100% willing to go further underground if OM had wanted to. Are you forgetting that Cam??? She totally remained in contact with him until he broke it off. Didn't feel selfish then. i believe most of us who have followed this totally believe if Om wife had not told you everything that your wife would have continued to lie to you and deny.

Forget the crap about how great and non selfish a wife she has been. That person does not exist any more. Do not backslide into the thought that this was just a blip on the radar of a wonderful wife. You must reconcile with the real wife that she is now if you choose that route. And the willingness to give you an amicable divorce is more manipulation. Do not count on that if you D. 

Before you do any polygraph, you need to look her in the eyes and ask her if she has had ANY contact with him since he left the job, and tell her that will be a question if you do a poly. I would also tell her the divorce is continuing poly or no poly and she will take another one before you stop it in a month or two ( even if you have no intention of doing it)..

You are getting typical behavior now. her fantasy is gone, and now she has no boyfriend and maybe no husband. Anyone with a double digit IQ would be saying the stuff she is. So take your time, do not backslide, and watch her actions and demand a timel;ine of EVERY interaction with EVERY person she had during this affair. Then maybe you will have a concrete basis for making a decision on some truth.


----------



## drifting on

Cam

No real advice in this post, just hoping you are doing as best that can be expected. Just try to focus on a day at a time, an hour at a time if need be. I'm sure your thoughts are racing, it's continually on your mind, but this will all pass. It's not easy, I'm not saying that, but it does pass. Keep your head about you and keep yourself busy, this sometimes helps time pass. One thing I think you should do is write down how often the affair comes to mind. A little check mark each time it comes into your thoughts. Do this for a twenty four hour period, then give it to your wife and explain what it is. This will help her to realize some of the damage she's caused to you internally. My wife was shocked at how often it came to my mind. Hoping you are ok, God bless.


----------



## ShatteredKat

Cam42:

While trying to learn how to live with my situation (similar to yours) - on another site I blundered into "Walloped" - who was told by his brother

"I saw your wife with a man walking and holding hands- " His story starts like yours, someone saw spouse holding hands with a man while walking in a very public place.

Reconciliation is possible. I suggest you find his threads (I would PM but don't know how yet/if I am privileged) - his path through Hell is worth the read and I think some of what is logged in his threads my help you. He has known/been dealing with his horror for around 18 months and
"the Jury is still out."


----------



## GusPolinski

ShatteredKat said:


> Cam42:
> 
> While trying to learn how to live with my situation (similar to yours) - on another site I blundered into "Walloped" - who was told by his brother
> 
> "I saw your wife with a man walking and holding hands- " His story starts like yours, someone saw spouse holding hands with a man while walking in a very public place.
> 
> Reconciliation is possible. I suggest you find his threads (I would PM but don't know how yet/if I am privileged) - his path through Hell is worth the read and I think some of what is logged in his threads my help you. He has known/been dealing with his horror for around 18 months and
> "the Jury is still out."


Isn't he the guy with the still-cheating WW?


----------



## sokillme

JohnA said:


> Nope, he is limbo and will remain there until he moves decidedly to end the infidelity. If Jews and Christians have the ten commandments BS showed have their own version.
> 
> The first commandment of BS should be:
> 
> THE INFIDELITY MUST END NOW: EITHER BY THE WS OR DIVORCE.


I didn't know about the LS posts, I won't read there, but I have read his one on SI. He is catatonic, once again proving my point that unassertive men get bullied. Also proving my point that men like him attract women like his wife. Is he even for real though, his post read like a nightmare for a BH. She tells him they did everything, that she loved him, that if she didn't get caught she would still be there 100%. He just takes it. Not sure if it's real no one is that weak. 

Even besides that, the child/parent dynamic is so consistent. Who wants to treat their wife like a kid though. Where are all these adult women who are in their 30/40/50 and acting like teenagers coming from? Day after day, it's so consistent. 

For the men it mostly is about sex and I would argue they probably were always on the edge of bad behavior when it comes to this. The men are mostly dogs and have always been dogs. For the women it's like they regress to adolescence.


----------



## sokillme

straightshooter said:


> Forget the crap about how great and non selfish a wife she has been. That person does not exist.


Fixed it for you.


----------



## TX-SC

GusPolinski said:


> Isn't he the guy with the still-cheating WW?


No, his wife has been remorseful and went NC with the OM immediately. But, he still struggles from what I have read. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## sokillme

TX-SC said:


> No, his wife has been remorseful and went NC with the OM immediately. But, he still struggles from what I have read.
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


Yeah he is going to struggle forever. That's part of the pain, he keeps thinking it will get better. He has to just learn to live with it.


----------



## ShatteredKat

Gus: Walloped - According to his threads - wife is the picture of remorse and contrition - there are a bunch over there that I can't bear to look at after a few posts - they are lost. CAM42 is (to me) showing some strength and "following his head more than his heart" and not doing the pick me.

CAMs wife - by his posts - seems to be heading towards remorse/contrition. But - always the but - the brain takes time to find a place to put the memories into a place of storage and sort out the emotional damage so poor CAM can sort out his thinking and feelings. It is sooooo sad that a spouse in a selfish moment casts a lifetime sentence on someone. CAM, so sorry you have been dragged into this club.

IN what I have read, CAMs wandering waif is on the low end of doing what evils some people do. Her transgressions seem to be sharing of self (mentally/physically) in terms of what she was doing and why. No plans for a future, just selfish indulgence - like a kid getting a big banana split. (I loved them when I was a skinny kid)

Some of the things I have read just boggles the mind with the total lack of morals and meanness some people have. CAMS wife doesn't appear to be showing much meanness. And the depravity of her actions appears to be "striking home solidly." The issue here is can CAM save his marriage - and whether he wants/decides to do so. On the other side, can he live with a divorce? Been there so it isn't to scary. First time with children and lots of family, ow. 

My suggestion regarding advising CAM to look up Wallops story is for "take your time and learn everything" - so he will know what he is going to have to find a way to live with the rest of his life. Walloped sat his wife down over a weekend and asked her over 100 grueling questions and recorded all of it.
No more secrets.

Some men (me?) can't do that. Just not in or DNA. One can stay in a marriage and feign some level of happiness - but that is a sorry way to spend your one life.

On that other site is "WaitedWaytoLong" - took him 5 years to exit. His wife (soon to be ex?) did a lot worse than CAMs. 

CAM - I think all everyone wants for you is your life to become what you decide it to be. And find happiness - Right now, the big decision(s) (stay or go) should be and remain under consideration. Give yourself another six months. Revisit everything you know with what has transpired in the six months. The answers will come to you. 

Keep asking the people here questions and post your thoughts for sanity checks. Just the writing will help.


----------



## ABHale

ShatteredKat said:


> Cam42:
> 
> While trying to learn how to live with my situation (similar to yours) - on another site I blundered into "Walloped" - who was told by his brother
> 
> "I saw your wife with a man walking and holding hands- " His story starts like yours, someone saw spouse holding hands with a man while walking in a very public place.
> 
> Reconciliation is possible. I suggest you find his threads (I would PM but don't know how yet/if I am privileged) - his path through Hell is worth the read and I think some of what is logged in his threads my help you. He has known/been dealing with his horror for around 18 months and
> "the Jury is still out."


So he has gone through hell and 18 months later he is still on the fence. Why in the world would you ever advise to R with this still not working out. Who ever Walloped is, he needs to stop putting himself through this. 

Cam this is why I believe you when you say you can't. To much damage and disrespect.


----------



## jsmart

CAM situation is turning around due to his actions. Exposing to family and friends and most importantly to other betrayed spouse really rocked her. Serving her at work was just that extra hit to let out the remaining fog she had in her unicorn and rainbow world. 

Now she realizes that the "love" she had for OM was based on nothing and that she not only hurt her husband and their children but also cheapened herself. Funny how consequences force the mind to really focus. 

This should be a lesson to other BHs that come to TAM wanting to pursue R at all cost. Only bold, firm, and decisive actions are capable of snapping an enamored WW out of the fog enough to consider pursuing R with her.

I personally think that the way things are going, CAM can probably give that gift of R in and within a year have a much stronger marriage than he had in a long time.


----------



## jsmart

@ShatteredKat you're right that there are many similarities to Wallops situation. He had a few things that helped him as well. His sister in law was VERY helpful, and he was also helped when he was able to find out that the OM was not divorced but was only separated and was working toward R with his wife. 

It always pays to independently confirm the situation of the other wayward spouse. Don't take the your wayward's word that they're single, divorced widowed, ETC. He did the research on the guy and was able to find his address and the phone number. 

When wallop called the other wife, he had his wife listening in. All the future faking that POS did was exposed. It was so rich when wallop's WW said sorry and that she didn't know he was married. The other BW response was so freaking awesome. "no but you knew you were married, you F'ing *****." That blew her world up.

CAM did pretty much the same thing. So while reading Wallops thread may help see how another handled it, personally I think CAM has progressed almost as much as wallop.


----------



## sokillme

jsmart said:


> CAM situation is turning around due to his actions. Exposing to family and friends and most importantly to other betrayed spouse really rocked her. Serving her at work was just that extra hit to let out the remaining fog she had in her unicorn and rainbow world.
> 
> Now she realizes that the "love" she had for OM was based on nothing and that she not only hurt her husband and their children but also cheapened herself. Funny how consequences force the mind to really focus.
> 
> This should be a lesson to other BHs that come to TAM wanting to pursue R at all cost. Only bold, firm, and decisive actions are capable of snapping an enamored WW out of the fog enough to consider pursuing R with her.
> 
> I personally think that the way things are going, CAM can probably give that gift of R in and within a year have a much stronger marriage than he had in a long time.


Is it turning around? He is still married to the same person he was 3 weeks ago. The only difference is she is saying different things. That's what gets me, if she says the right things, which most people know what they are. I am sorry, how could I be so stupid, I hate myself, then people jump to the sentiment that now his life is better. That is a trap. He still has to wake up next to this person who did such garbage to him. He still has to settle for a wife who could belittle him the way she did. Her words don't take away what she has done. Nothing will. And that is the point. The real hard choice in all of this is can you live with it. Even if she is the best spouse for the rest of his life.


----------



## sokillme

jsmart said:


> @ShatteredKat you're right that there are many similarities to Wallops situation. He had a few things that helped him as well. His sister in law was VERY helpful, and he was also helped when he was able to find out that the OM was not divorced but was only separated and was working toward R with his wife.
> 
> It always pays to independently confirm the situation of the other wayward spouse. Don't take the your wayward's word that they're single, divorced widowed, ETC. He did the research on the guy and was able to find his address and the phone number.
> 
> When wallop called the other wife, he had his wife listening in. All the future faking that POS did was exposed. It was so rich when wallop's WW said sorry and that she didn't know he was married. The other BW response was so freaking awesome. "no but you knew you were married, you F'ing *****." That blew her world up.
> 
> CAM did pretty much the same thing. So while reading Wallops thread may help see how another handled it, personally I think CAM has progressed almost as much as wallop.


Would any of us want Wallop's life? That is the bottom line, lets not pretend that any of this isn't just a giant **** show. The only people whose lives I would personally want are the ones who moved on. I can't remember their names but their are a few. There is a woman who posts on there, her last post was "I don't need counseling" She dumped her second husband in 6 months. Her first husband cheated and she held on, she wasn't doing that again. She did well. 

"WaitedWaytoLong" for instance is as wish-washy as ever. He doesn't get that he is probably as best as he is ever going to be with the **** sandwich he was handed if he stays with his awful wife. IT'S NOT GOING TO GET ANY BETTER! Quit agonizing over it and either accept it or move on. I am convinced that this wasn't his wife's first rodeo as you don't start at stage 9 of doing it while the other workers are in the next room. Everyone on that site is so codependent that no one has even suggested it. She is a personal trainer too, that is one of the professions where affairs happen the most, as you probably figured. If I wasn't banned I would be mentioning this in ever thread he posts.


----------



## jsmart

sokillme said:


> Is it turning around? He is still married to the same person he was 3 weeks ago. The only difference is she is saying different things. That's what gets me, if she says the right things, which most people know what they are. I am sorry, how could I be so stupid, I hate myself, then people jump to the sentiment that now his life is better. That is a trap. He still has to wake up next to this person who did such garbage to him. He still has to settle for a wife who could belittle him the way she did. Her words don't take away what she has done. Nothing will. And that is the point. The real hard choice in all of this is can you live with it. Even if she is the best spouse for the rest of his life.


Yes, it probably would be better to leave in the long run but that's obviously not want CAM wants. He's hoping to keep his family together. 

Cam has done everything that we normally advise and now has a defogged wife. Isn't that a positive thing? It doesn't undo the adultery because she can't be un-F'd but in this situation they can work not on rebuilding the old marriage but in building a new one.

We need to stop bullying every new BH that comes TAM into thinking that anything less than divorce is weak. Cam has not been like the typical BH. He did not do the pick me dance. He took action and has some positive results to show for it. 

I think the reason he hasn't been posting as much is because the constant drum beat of "divorce her." It's like any positive moves he reports his wife making, is right away discounted as being phony. This is a man's family we're influencing.


----------



## sokillme

jsmart said:


> Yes, it probably would be better to leave in the long run but that's obviously not want CAM wants. He's hoping to keep his family together.
> 
> Cam has done everything that we normally advise and now has a defogged wife. Isn't that a positive thing? It doesn't undo the adultery because she can't be un-F'd but in this situation they can work not on rebuilding the old marriage but in building a new one.
> 
> We need to stop bullying every new BH that comes TAM into thinking that anything less than divorce is weak. Cam has not been like the typical BH. He did not do the pick me dance. He took action and has some positive results to show for it.
> 
> I think the reason he hasn't been posting as much is because the constant drum beat of "divorce her." It's like any positive moves he reports his wife making, is right away discounted as being phony. This is a man's family we're influencing.


I am not bullying him I am saying it's way to premature to say his situation is turning around. It's been 3 weeks. He has done very good, but he is at the starting line at this point. I don't like it when her just doing the minimum is seen as a success. This is a long road either way. I see people celebrate for BS and get their hopes up only to find out in 2 months time she contacted the AP again.


----------



## ShatteredKat

sokillme - I agree with your assessments of the poor souls on SI - my intent was for CAM to study/read the threads for his education. I trust people like you will try to "keep him grounded" - It is hard to judge a man who is trying to "save his family."

Only those faced with the task really know the emotions and turmoil. Some of us grew up in such a family and can advise what such an experience did to us. Then there are the ones who faced "Save the Family" I don't profess to have answers - only some experience in what life serves based on just my experience and a few observations of others in similar straights.

I don't want to try and push for anything other than thoughtful decision making. God-Awful task when brain is fried by the emotions of the person who brought about the calamity. (Is that a good word to use for it?) 

btw - I think the post you referred to is "turn the other cheek" - her husband earned his 'reward'

From what CAM is writing, I don't quire think his wife was so deliberate - but even that is skirting inevitability. 

CAM - one thing you must do is find some way to file the memory of what you have/are suffering whether you stay or go.
FWIW, I have over 30 years of practice. It still causes some emotional distress. you WILL eventually find this place to store the memory too.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Cam42,

I have been following the posters on here. TAM can be pretty brutal, but these folks are looking out for you. Keep that in mind. That being said, you will find more pro D than pro R on here. The bottom line is you need to take this advice, apply it to your situation and make a decision that is in your best interest whether it be R or D. I will be the first to admit I got some well deserved whacks to the head, but those whacks helped me make what I feel is the right decision. 

In my opinion other than the affair itself, the most obvious hurdle to moving to R is her asking you how she looked before she hooked up with POSOM. You really need to discuss this with her. It may make her uncomfortable but so be it. You need answers!

I will say in my humble opinion you are handling this very well from your posts. You are not rug sweeping by any means. However for your posts I have a suspicion that she is all upset she was caught, and is not near the remorse stage yet. Keep your foot on her throat with the divorce papers and in the next few weeks you will likely see remorse from her. Right now it is all about her. She needs to make this all about Cam42.

Ps: I would strongly recommend if you can find a male MC do so. Best advice my cousin who was messed over gave me. He held my FWWs feet to the coals.


----------



## eric1

Walloped still hasn't resolved what happened. He's trying to work it out in his own way, a reasonably productive way, but what he's risking is one day waking up and realizing he's wasted his life with someone that he doesn't truly love anymore.

I don't know him well enough to suggest the next move. But as it applies to Cam, he does need to take incredibly hard action (as he's been inclined to do) but then to let his own emotions settle before he decides the next course. Wallop was never not going to pick reconciliation. If it happened to him again today I'm not sure that would be the case. That's the benefit in letting things settle


----------



## drifting on

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Cam42,
> 
> I have been following the posters on here. TAM can be pretty brutal, but these folks are looking out for you. Keep that in mind. That being said, you will find more pro D than pro R on here. The bottom line is you need to take this advice, apply it to your situation and make a decision that is in your best interest whether it be R or D. I will be the first to admit I got some well deserved whacks to the head, but those whacks helped me make what I feel is the right decision.
> 
> In my opinion other than the affair itself, the most obvious hurdle to moving to R is her asking you how she looked before she hooked up with POSOM. You really need to discuss this with her. It may make her uncomfortable but so be it. You need answers!
> 
> I will say in my humble opinion you are handling this very well from your posts. You are not rug sweeping by any means. However for your posts I have a suspicion that she is all upset she was caught, and is not near the remorse stage yet. Keep your foot on her throat with the divorce papers and in the next few weeks you will likely see remorse from her. Right now it is all about her. She needs to make this all about Cam42.
> 
> Ps: I would strongly recommend if you can find a male MC do so. Best advice my cousin who was messed over gave me. He held my FWWs feet to the coals.




QFT. Cam, you can't make such an impacting decision just yet. Your thoughts are racing, your emotions going from one end of the spectrum to the other. How could anyone make a decision now? How could that decision be the best for you? Ask yourself this, are you glad she's home but also mad she's home? I hope you can see what I mean. Of course she is saying all the right things, she's in IC. She can say whatever words she wants, which is why we say to watch her actions. What are her actions saying? 

Crying is not an action, seeing your pain and talking to you to comfort you is an action. Moving mountains for you is an action. Feeling your pain is remorse. Making a lunch for you to take to work is guilt. Looking at you and your children then crying is regret. Measure her by her actions, such as throwing away the outfit she asked from you if she looked good. Do you follow this? Do you see regret? YES!! But from what you posted she hasn't hit remorse yet, and quite truthfully I don't think it's possible for her to feel remorse yet. This is why you wait, so at the end of six months you can gauge her actions, and from a more clear reality, to make the best decision for you. 

Look, I reconciled with a person who had a six month affair, lied about the paternity, and after six months I offered reconciliation, much to the chagrin of posters here, but it was my best course to take. Would it have been easy for me to divorce, I don't know, I didn't choose that path. I'm more then sure some see me as weak for not divorcing, but again it wasn't my best path. Many here will help you to divorce, I believe the same will help you to reconcile, but truthfully it's way to soon to be discussing either. Do you need to keep your wife's feet to the fire, yes, by all means. But don't be mean about it, you will have to co-parent with her regardless, and your children need a mom not someone you destroyed. 

If you feel you posters are beating a divorce or reconcile drum, then pm them or ignore their posts. Take the advice that pertains to you the most. Many here will support the path you have chosen when you decide. These posters have also supported me even though we don't always agree. Just for the record I'm not singling out any poster on this thread. I'm speaking generically from the threads I've posted on. Take your time Cam, you have filed the divorce and she has been served. Now is her time to prove she is all in for your new marriage. Now is the time you try to breathe, catch your breath and monitor your wife. It's also a time to start IC for yourself, start to work on you, watch you children and see if they need therapy. 

For what it's worth, I think your wife is beginning to feel the consequences. She's seeing the damage her poor choices have made. She is disgusted with the person she became. She is afraid she has lost everything. She is regretful for her actions, for her selfishness. Remorse hasn't hit, but it will, and that has her even more fearful. Your wife is also feeling defeated as she knows some of the questions you haven't asked yet. She knows she is about to lose some friends in this as well. She is beginning to see just how many people will ultimately be affected by her choices. She knows she has nobody to blame but herself, and she will have to live with the carnage she caused. Your wife is going through hell too, the only difference is she isn't a victim, she's the perpetrator.


----------



## sokillme

OK I was a little harsh, this really isn't the thread to be discussing other BS situations and their lives, I'm am sorry about that. I am trying to tamper this guys enthusiasm for now. It takes months if not years to really know if his wife gets it or not. Right now he should be detaching and concentrating on his kids and himself. How many threads have we seen where the wife ends up going right back into the selfish pattern after a month or so of hard work.


----------



## eric1

drifting on said:


> QFT. Cam, you can't make such an impacting decision just yet. Your thoughts are racing, your emotions going from one end of the spectrum to the other. How could anyone make a decision now? How could that decision be the best for you? Ask yourself this, are you glad she's home but also mad she's home? I hope you can see what I mean. Of course she is saying all the right things, she's in IC. She can say whatever words she wants, which is why we say to watch her actions. What are her actions saying?
> 
> 
> 
> Crying is not an action, seeing your pain and talking to you to comfort you is an action. Moving mountains for you is an action. Feeling your pain is remorse. Making a lunch for you to take to work is guilt. Looking at you and your children then crying is regret. Measure her by her actions, such as throwing away the outfit she asked from you if she looked good. Do you follow this? Do you see regret? YES!! But from what you posted she hasn't hit remorse yet, and quite truthfully I don't think it's possible for her to feel remorse yet. This is why you wait, so at the end of six months you can gauge her actions, and from a more clear reality, to make the best decision for you.
> 
> 
> 
> Look, I reconciled with a person who had a six month affair, lied about the paternity, and after six months I offered reconciliation, much to the chagrin of posters here, but it was my best course to take. Would it have been easy for me to divorce, I don't know, I didn't choose that path. I'm more then sure some see me as weak for not divorcing, but again it wasn't my best path. Many here will help you to divorce, I believe the same will help you to reconcile, but truthfully it's way to soon to be discussing either. Do you need to keep your wife's feet to the fire, yes, by all means. But don't be mean about it, you will have to co-parent with her regardless, and your children need a mom not someone you destroyed.
> 
> 
> 
> If you feel you posters are beating a divorce or reconcile drum, then pm them or ignore their posts. Take the advice that pertains to you the most. Many here will support the path you have chosen when you decide. These posters have also supported me even though we don't always agree. Just for the record I'm not singling out any poster on this thread. I'm speaking generically from the threads I've posted on. Take your time Cam, you have filed the divorce and she has been served. Now is her time to prove she is all in for your new marriage. Now is the time you try to breathe, catch your breath and monitor your wife. It's also a time to start IC for yourself, start to work on you, watch you children and see if they need therapy.
> 
> 
> 
> For what it's worth, I think your wife is beginning to feel the consequences.* She's seeing the damage her poor choices have made. She is disgusted with the person she became. She is afraid she has lost everything. She is regretful for her actions, for her selfishness. Remorse hasn't hit, but it will, and that has her even more fearful. Your wife is also feeling defeated as she knows some of the questions you haven't asked yet. She knows she is about to lose some friends in this as well. She is beginning to see just how many people will ultimately be affected by her choices. She knows she has nobody to blame but herself, and she will have to live with the carnage she caused. *Your wife is going through hell too, the only difference is she isn't a victim, she's the perpetrator.




With all due respect, this is negligent advice at this point. I've worked with a _significant_ amount of folks where this just isn't true.

You say that she hasn't hit remorse then go to project that her actions and thoughts are already those that would be found within the remorse stage.


----------



## drifting on

eric1 said:


> With all due respect, this is negligent advice at this point. I've worked with a _significant_ amount of folks where this just isn't true.
> 
> You say that she hasn't hit remorse then go to project that her actions and thoughts are already those that would be found within the remorse stage.




Nope, not at all, she is feeling regret and all that I've stated in the bolded paragraph is her feeling sorry for herself. Remorse will be when she feels her children's and Cams pain. What is bolded is simply regret. I would also add some shame and humiliation. But it's definitely not remorse. 

An example of remorse would be when my wife would look at me, see my pain, feel my pain, then make me feel safe through actions. It wasn't about her, it was about me.

ETA: @eric1, I apologize for not putting with all due respect in my first sentence. You are a great poster whom I agree with much of the time.


----------



## Taxman

I believe that it is premature to project a WS mental state a short time after D-Day. Let me take this from the perspective of the Wayward; She has had her "Oh Shytte" moment. Mine happened in the middle of the night, lying next to my AP, I sat bolt upright in bed (in my Mom's basement), and knew that I HAD FVCKED UP ROYALLY. Cam's wife just had that despicable fog clear. It grows in your head so imperceptably, replacing logic and clarity with sexual urge and a complete rewrite of your history. '

When that fog drops out and you realize what the hell you have done, it literally feels like you are the deer in the headlights. You have just set off a nuclear explosion in your life, AND you have no idea how to fix it. If you have totally alienated your BS, there may not be a way back. You need to immediately go into "fix it all" mode. Cam's wife is now clear, and she realizes what kind of destruction she has left in her wake. The only thing she does not get is the mental scar she has created in Cam's head. Believe me when I say that I know that scar intimately. As I have said before, my wife wanted me to know what I had put her through, so her terms for reconciliation included her going on a date with someone other than me. It was justice, cold, dispassionate, emotionless, and she told me about it in detail so that I would know that I had caused that as well, and in order for her to feel that there was balance, she needed to punish me in that way. (Yeah, bashers, a RA that worked). She theorized that if we reconciled, that we would be coming back from similar places, if we divorced, she had the first fvck of her single life. 

I don't recommend my wife's solution, but I understand it well. It worked. Cam has the pre-divorce period to decide whether or not this relationship can survive the scorched earth that she left in her wake.

PS, I thank "Dr Laura" for some of the push toward reconciliation. My wife, in the early part of reconciliation waffled a bit, she expressed a feeling that perhaps she could "do better" in finding another mate. At that time, she was listening to the Dr Laura program in the afternoons at her desk. Dr. Laura spends some time using statistics, and pointed out that second marriages have a much higher rate of failure. That to some extent helped matters.


----------



## MyRevelation

eric1 said:


> Walloped still hasn't resolved what happened. He's trying to work it out in his own way, a reasonably productive way, but what he's risking is one day waking up and realizing he's wasted his life with someone that he doesn't truly love anymore.
> 
> I don't know him well enough to suggest the next move. But as it applies to Cam, he does need to take incredibly hard action (as he's been inclined to do) but then to let his own emotions settle before he decides the next course. Wallop was never not going to pick reconciliation. If it happened to him again today I'm not sure that would be the case. That's the benefit in letting things settle


I think you are spot on ... Walloped was served up a Double **** Burger that would have caused most BH's to spit it out immediately, but he swallowed it. When I read his posts now, they just scream regret, and that he is trying to convince himself he did the right thing. He is likely due for a serious ... OH **** MOMENT ... where the realization sets in that he waffled and went weak, when he should have stayed the original course and kept strong. He's trying to force a "love connection", when in reality, his WW's actions killed the love he once had for her. 

... and FWIW, Walloped isn't alone in that situation. I see a lot of BH's in self-proclaimed R, including well respected posters here, that spend a lot of their posting time trying to convince themselves they are reconciled, when in reality, they remain in constant turmoil over a poor life choice.

Hopefully, Cam will learn from these poster's experiences and reflections, rather than buckle under the pressure and join them.


----------



## eric1

drifting on said:


> Nope, not at all, she is feeling regret and all that I've stated in the bolded paragraph is her feeling sorry for herself. Remorse will be when she feels her children's and Cams pain. What is bolded is simply regret. I would also add some shame and humiliation. But it's definitely not remorse.
> 
> An example of remorse would be when my wife would look at me, see my pain, feel my pain, then make me feel safe through actions. It wasn't about her, it was about me.
> 
> ETA: @eric1, I apologize for not putting with all due respect in my first sentence. You are a great poster whom I agree with much of the time.


No worries at all man. I figured we were mostly on the same page but only raised my hand because I figured it would be in cam's best interest to really vet that process. It's a weird, difficult time.


----------



## drifting on

eric1 said:


> No worries at all man. I figured we were mostly on the same page but only raised my hand because I figured it would be in cam's best interest to really vet that process. It's a weird, difficult time.




I know you have Cams best interest at heart, your posts help him navigate the storm a bit more clearly as you stand in that field of ruin. When u was in Cams shoes it was surreal and the most difficult time of my life. I couldn't believe this happened, it seemed as though it wasn't real, that infidelity didn't happen, and then it hits. Emotions scattered, racing thoughts, anger, rage, hopelessness, and incredible hurt invade you. Hopefully the posters here are keeping Cam grounded to walk him through.


----------



## drifting on

Taxman said:


> I believe that it is premature to project a WS mental state a short time after D-Day. Let me take this from the perspective of the Wayward; She has had her "Oh Shytte" moment. Mine happened in the middle of the night, lying next to my AP, I sat bolt upright in bed (in my Mom's basement), and knew that I HAD FVCKED UP ROYALLY. Cam's wife just had that despicable fog clear. It grows in your head so imperceptably, replacing logic and clarity with sexual urge and a complete rewrite of your history. '
> 
> When that fog drops out and you realize what the hell you have done, it literally feels like you are the deer in the headlights. You have just set off a nuclear explosion in your life, AND you have no idea how to fix it. If you have totally alienated your BS, there may not be a way back. You need to immediately go into "fix it all" mode. Cam's wife is now clear, and she realizes what kind of destruction she has left in her wake. The only thing she does not get is the mental scar she has created in Cam's head. Believe me when I say that I know that scar intimately. As I have said before, my wife wanted me to know what I had put her through, so her terms for reconciliation included her going on a date with someone other than me. It was justice, cold, dispassionate, emotionless, and she told me about it in detail so that I would know that I had caused that as well, and in order for her to feel that there was balance, she needed to punish me in that way. (Yeah, bashers, a RA that worked). She theorized that if we reconciled, that we would be coming back from similar places, if we divorced, she had the first fvck of her single life.
> 
> I don't recommend my wife's solution, but I understand it well. It worked. Cam has the pre-divorce period to decide whether or not this relationship can survive the scorched earth that she left in her wake.
> 
> PS, I thank "Dr Laura" for some of the push toward reconciliation. My wife, in the early part of reconciliation waffled a bit, she expressed a feeling that perhaps she could "do better" in finding another mate. At that time, she was listening to the Dr Laura program in the afternoons at her desk. Dr. Laura spends some time using statistics, and pointed out that second marriages have a much higher rate of failure. That to some extent helped matters.




From what you wrote in the first and second paragraphs is regret, not remorse. Your wife having a revenge affair is not justice. @JohnA and I have discussed justice when it comes to infidelity. Even after our talk I still believe somewhat that there is no justice. Just my opinion of course.


----------



## Taxman

drifting on said:


> From what you wrote in the first and second paragraphs is regret, not remorse. Your wife having a revenge affair is not justice. @JohnA and I have discussed justice when it comes to infidelity. Even after our talk I still believe somewhat that there is no justice. Just my opinion of course.


Justice is a moving target, and is dependent on the victim's interpretation. In my wife's mind, I had to endure the same emotional damage that she endured. We spent time on this in MC. It was difficult to accept, but that was my sentence to accept or not. I could have easily walked away. The overriding opinion on this site and others, is that she should have not engaged in her revenge ONS. In therapy, she said that it gave her back her self esteem. It made her feel like a woman again, to have someone desire her. She also knew that, even though I was the perpetrator and had no ability to protest, that it would cut me. It did. As much as anyone here will disagree with me, it leveled the playing field. She felt that she could not go into a "Reconfigured Marriage" without balance between the two of us, and that she would always feel wronged without retribution.

Secondarily, you ascribe regret rather than remorse. First, you are NOT inside my head. Second, I write this from the perspective of someone who has been out of infidelity for nearly 30 years. Maybe I have picked up a thought or two in that time as opposed to someone who is pulling themselves out of this sh!it-pile just now. Certainly I regret everything. I regret getting myself into the situation where infidelity could occur. I regret having a situational depression coupled with a manic state, as my psychiatrist states. I regret forgetting my wife and kid to slip between the legs of a crazy 19 year old cheerleader. I regret waking my wife up to give her the ILYBINILWY speech. I regret leaving and not telling her where I went. I regret acting like a self centered idiot for weeks on end. I regret that she felt the need to get her womanhood back, as I stole it from her. I regret blowing up our lives. I regret flushing out savings and security down the drain for a lifestyle that was doomed from the beginning. 

I am also remorseful for doing this all to my wife and child. I AM NOT REMORSEFUL FOR SEEKING TO FIX IT. I AM NOT REMORSEFUL FOR HAVING HORRIBLE THINGS HAPPEN DURING OUR RECONCILIATION

I regret one fvck of a lot. I still regret it, BUT DO NOT SAY I AM NOT REMORSEFUL, and since you are not in my head, you have no idea what rolls around up there, you have no business bashing if you haven't walked a mile or two in someone else's shoes


----------



## cam42

Hi everyone, for the time being I have just been hanging out with our kids. Our teenagers have made this relatively easy on me. They are distant/angry with their mother. Our youngest has taken this the hardest so I try to make it easier on her. 

Yesterday I decided to take all of us bowling. I asked my wife if she wanted to go and she seemed happy about the invite, I let her know this doesn't mean anything it's just an outing with our kids. She said she'll take whatever she can get. 

So we get there and have a relatively good time, until our youngest just started to bawl on the ride home. Fearing the divorce and saying she doesn't want us to separate. Then my wife started to cry and said "honey I treated your father and you and your sisters badly and I was very selfish, if we get a divorce it's no ones fault but my own so please don't blame your father or yourself. 

Damn that hurt, it cut deep. My wife has been acting good so far but I'm not diving into reconciliation just cause our daughter started crying. I'm so angry at my wife for doing this to our kids. My WW thanked me for a good time, hugged me and then went into her room to cry. 

It's tough being the only male in the house, I'm not saying girls cry more or anything but they do express their feelings more than men. Maybe I shouldn't have invited her?


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*

It would only have been wrong if you did not want her to come yet invited her anyway.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Cam, you did nothing wrong inviting your WW. It was a nice gesture for your children in my opinion. She is after all their mom regardless. I feel for the children. There was one positive out of your youngest's comment, that being, it drove the cold hard reality home on your wife as to the damage she has done to the family. This is called consequences. I hope your wife was sincere in her comment and not trying to garner sympathy from you. You are a good man and do not forget that. Your daughters see that. 

I still think your wife is still in regret mode, not near remorse mode yet. Keep your distance from her and 180 hard. I would strongly encourage you to have a few nights to yourself with friends.Make her wonder what you are up to. 

One thing I did on the advice of a friend was remove my wedding ring after DDay. Sent a crystal clear message.


----------



## sokillme

Taxman said:


> *I believe that it is premature to project a WS mental state a short time after D-Day.* Let me take this from the perspective of the Wayward; She has had her "Oh Shytte" moment. Mine happened in the middle of the night, lying next to my AP, I sat bolt upright in bed (in my Mom's basement), and knew that I HAD FVCKED UP ROYALLY. Cam's wife just had that despicable fog clear. It grows in your head so imperceptably, replacing logic and clarity with sexual urge and a complete rewrite of your history. '
> 
> When that fog drops out and you realize what the hell you have done, it literally feels like you are the deer in the headlights. You have just set off a nuclear explosion in your life, AND you have no idea how to fix it. If you have totally alienated your BS, there may not be a way back. You need to immediately go into "fix it all" mode. *Cam's wife is now clear, and she realizes what kind of destruction she has left in her wake*. The only thing she does not get is the mental scar she has created in Cam's head. Believe me when I say that I know that scar intimately. As I have said before, my wife wanted me to know what I had put her through, so her terms for reconciliation included her going on a date with someone other than me. It was justice, cold, dispassionate, emotionless, and she told me about it in detail so that I would know that I had caused that as well, and in order for her to feel that there was balance, she needed to punish me in that way. (Yeah, bashers, a RA that worked). She theorized that if we reconciled, that we would be coming back from similar places, if we divorced, she had the first fvck of her single life.
> 
> I don't recommend my wife's solution, but I understand it well. It worked. Cam has the pre-divorce period to decide whether or not this relationship can survive the scorched earth that she left in her wake.
> 
> PS, I thank "Dr Laura" for some of the push toward reconciliation. My wife, in the early part of reconciliation waffled a bit, she expressed a feeling that perhaps she could "do better" in finding another mate. At that time, she was listening to the Dr Laura program in the afternoons at her desk. Dr. Laura spends some time using statistics, and pointed out that second marriages have a much higher rate of failure. That to some extent helped matters.



You say it premature to project Cam's wife's mental state in the first paragraph (which I agree with) then you go on to project her mental state. How many BS say all of these things and just buy a burner phone, or spend a month trying to R only to fall back into their old patterns. 

EVERYONE STOP, with the Cam's wife is this or Cam's wife it that. We have no idea and won't for a while.


----------



## sokillme

Taxman said:


> As I have said before, my wife wanted me to know what I had put her through, so her terms for reconciliation included her going on a date with someone other than me. It was justice, cold, dispassionate, emotionless, and she told me about it in detail so that I would know that I had caused that as well, and in order for her to feel that there was balance, she needed to punish me in that way. (Yeah, bashers, a RA that worked). She theorized that if we reconciled, that we would be coming back from similar places, if we divorced, she had the first fvck of her single life.


She should have had sex with him in your Mom's basement, then you would have been even. Just saying. >

Your also lucky she didn't check the rate of failure between first and second marriages when there is cheating in the first.


----------



## sokillme

cam42 said:


> Hi everyone, for the time being I have just been hanging out with our kids. Our teenagers have made this relatively easy on me. They are distant/angry with their mother. Our youngest has taken this the hardest so I try to make it easier on her.
> 
> Yesterday I decided to take all of us bowling. I asked my wife if she wanted to go and she seemed happy about the invite, I let her know this doesn't mean anything it's just an outing with our kids. She said she'll take whatever she can get.
> 
> So we get there and have a relatively good time, until our youngest just started to bawl on the ride home. Fearing the divorce and saying she doesn't want us to separate. Then my wife started to cry and said "honey I treated your father and you and your sisters badly and I was very selfish, if we get a divorce it's no ones fault but my own so please don't blame your father or yourself.
> 
> Damn that hurt, it cut deep. My wife has been acting good so far but I'm not diving into reconciliation just cause our daughter started crying. I'm so angry at my wife for doing this to our kids. My WW thanked me for a good time, hugged me and then went into her room to cry.
> 
> It's tough being the only male in the house, I'm not saying girls cry more or anything but they do express their feelings more than men. Maybe I shouldn't have invited her?



I would ONLY suggest NOT inviting her even if you want to, if you decide that you are going to D. Then they need to get used to the idea that from now on you will be separate. The transition is hard. My Dad just up and left, it was a surprise to me. It would have been easier if there was a transition I think, though I was young like your daughter so I would probably had reacted the same way. 

I survived. Your kids will too. Just love them. 

Is your wife reading any books, going to IC? What do you mean by being good besides saying sorry and crying.


----------



## cam42

She is reading books and she has been going to individual counseling to deal with what she did. I could tell that comment really hit her hard. She called off of work sick today. I need way more time though.


----------



## ABHale

Good to see you taking care of your kids Cam. This will make all the difference in the world to them. With your youngest, just holder her and keep telling her things will be ok either way she is loved. 

With going out with your wife. I would hold off for sometime so your girls came pull themselves together some. They will need time to heal. Everything is to raw right now. It will take almost nothing to set them off. 

Hang in there man.


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## JohnA

Hi Cam,

Early on I posted the adultery must end, either it stops with NC or divorce there is no in between. This has been achieved. 

I then advise a BS to plan a post marriage life which incudes knowing what the custody and financial settlement will be. This you have done. Although filing per say is not necessary. This has been done. 


Now and only now you are in a place you can successfully reconcile. 

Remorse vs regret, if she does not have it the reconcilation will fail. If you don't believe she has it the reconcilation will fail. This step takes time and gaining knowledge. Reading suggested lit and IC (not MC) with experience with infidelity is needed. 

Did I suggest reading @MovingFrwrd thread? If you have not do so. In his case there was MOM PA, a COW sexting, and a OM3 hitting on her to join a swingers group. He did many if not or the steps you have taken. His wife was remorseful, was trying, but he was on her case 24/7. It was at that point I told him if the reconcilation fails at this point it is on you not her. To knock it off and grow up. Accept while the afultery and blame shifting and gas lighting was on her, his reaction was on him. If he wanted to reconcilation he had to show up. Seperate the adultery from the issues and work on both. I advised him to never underestimate the power of unexpected acts of small kindness and support during this period. He took this advise and ran. 

Your invitation was exactly what I would have advised you to do. Do not let her think it was anything but a kind gesture. If she try's to make it more then that simply say "I will not socialize or date until we divorce, I expect the same from you if you truely want to reconcile". Advise her to seek IC as you will do and continue reading. When both of us are in a better place we can go to MC. 

I see two huge triggers in your posts that will recur for decades. The giggling and texting while sitting next to you and asking you how see looked before hooking up with MOM. This is an adultery issue and will need to be addressed as such. It is also a marriage issue as how much resentment, comtempt and hatred she had for you in those moments. Why did she allow what ever issues there where in a marriage to get to this point. 

I recall comments by two BS to there WS that really hit hard. First: why didn't you just divorce me and spare me this pain? Second: I want to be with someone who feels about me, the way you felt about them. Hard questions. 

Now is the time for both of you to reflect if the two of you can have a good marriage and how to achieve it. Now you are in a place emotionally to do so if you want. But understand reconcile for yourself no one else. A successful reconciliation is never fair to the BS and the WS needs to understand that. She stepped out, she had the time of her life, your eating the **** sandwich. So the question is, is the new marriage worth it?? Find out if it is.


----------



## JohnA

If you cannot fine, that's fine just let her go peacefully and move on. If you think you might want to try to reconcile then DON'T HALF ASS IT !!!


----------



## mickybill

cam42 said:


> She is reading books and she has been going to individual counseling to deal with what she did. I could tell that comment really hit her hard. She called off of work sick today. I need way more time though.


I'm sure it was horrible for you to hear your daughter's comment - it was 100 x worse for your WW. It was just pure honesty with no ulterior motive. Hit her like a ton of bricks.

She has had more than 6 months to live with her affair, for most of that time she nurtured it and watched it grow, but knew in the back of her mind it could come crashing down, so was somewhat prepared when it did.

You first learned about it what, 6 8 weeks ago. She's got a big head start on you my friend.
You go at your own pace, you've be doing great.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> She is reading books and she has been going to individual counseling to deal with what she did. I could tell that comment really hit her hard. She called off of work sick today. I need way more time though


Your wife said that she would do anything for you including signing the D. CAM you do not know what she is going to do in the next year to thereafter so you need to protect yourself. *My suggestion would be is for you to go through with the D and tell her she can prove her words with ACTIONS for a long time*. 

With this method you are protecting yourself and allowing the needed consequences to play a role in your relationship. By allowing your wife to prove her words (always believe actions over words) you will give yourself time to be able to make a wiser decision based on your welfare and the children’s welfare.
*You get the D then the ball is in your wife’s court to prove her words*. If she proves her words for a long time you will be less emotional and can make a better decision if you want to R or stay with the D. Your wife has forfeited the right to be married to you at this time but you can give her a chance to have a much better relationship to you or R. *It is her obligation to prove to you that she is truly remorseful and to accept the D.
*
If you can, be nice but firm with your wife for your sake and for your children’s sake. You will get no long term relief with hatred or vengeance. However a D and appropriate consequences will add some protection for you and some justice. If everything works out in the future you can re-marry her if you want.


----------



## Satya

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*

Be careful doing "family - like" things with your stbx. I realize it was your decision, but your daughter's reaction hints to me that it may be an emotionally charged mixed message for her. She sees you all having a good time and knows that it may be the last time. But it's not... Not yet. So she can't properly process or grieve because you're supposed to be splitting yet you're still doing things together.

Better to do fun things with just the kids, which is a more stable and realistic view of the future, if you definitely are going to D. 

Just my opinion.


----------



## Evinrude58

I say divorce her, and get a fair divorce settlement. If you and she want to reconcile, that's great. I hope it works. I think the chance is slim. As said, she got to have her fun at everyone else's expense for 6. Months and had no intention of EVER stopping. That's a poo sandwich that you'll probably never be able to stomach.
It's not hard to seen all broken up about it when her AP is no longer there to screw her and keep the fantasy going.

If you can stomach it, you can at least see your wife without having the fear of an unfavorable divorce hanging over your head. 
Reconcile or not, I think it's best to divorce her. She divorced you when the affair started. It's not like you have a marriage anywhere except on paper right now. Fix the paper part, then you can work on the marriage if you want.

This woman would still be doing her AP if she weren't caught. I would not forget that just because of a few tears.

Your chances are slim for a successful reconciliation. Fix the paper. Then you can try for the reconciliation. It's obvious that's what you want. Heck, I did. But I wasn't as strong as you and screwed my chances. I chased my cheating ex and she ran.

Good luck to you.


----------



## straightshooter

cam42 said:


> Hi everyone, for the time being I have just been hanging out with our kids. Our teenagers have made this relatively easy on me. They are distant/angry with their mother. Our youngest has taken this the hardest so I try to make it easier on her.
> 
> Yesterday I decided to take all of us bowling. I asked my wife if she wanted to go and she seemed happy about the invite, I let her know this doesn't mean anything it's just an outing with our kids. She said she'll take whatever she can get.
> 
> So we get there and have a relatively good time, until our youngest just started to bawl on the ride home. Fearing the divorce and saying she doesn't want us to separate. Then my wife started to cry and said "honey I treated your father and you and your sisters badly and I was very selfish, if we get a divorce it's no ones fault but my own so please don't blame your father or yourself.
> 
> Damn that hurt, it cut deep. My wife has been acting good so far but I'm not diving into reconciliation just cause our daughter started crying. I'm so angry at my wife for doing this to our kids. My WW thanked me for a good time, hugged me and then went into her room to cry.
> 
> It's tough being the only male in the house, I'm not saying girls cry more or anything but they do express their feelings more than men. Maybe I shouldn't have invited her?


Cam,

You may not believe it because of how ****ty you feel, but you are doing pretty damm good. But I caution you on doing the "family" stuff" because it sends mixed signals to your kids and your wife, but she is not my concern. If you have made the decision to NOT reconcile and simply suck it up for the kids, then until you do make a final decision you need to be consistent in your actions in my opinion.
You keep mentioning the crying by your wife. You MUST put that out of your mind. She sure was not crying a short time ago when she was in gigglefest mode with her friends and prancing out indirectly taunting you with how great she looked when she went out to have sex with boyfriend. I'm sure you have shed a tear or two thinking about that night so let her cry to her hearts content.

I keep asking the same questions but for some reason ( I know you are overwhelmed) but you do not answer.
(1) has she given you a detailed accounting of who knew, who encouraged, and which girlfriends must be eliminated from your and hers life if you R. or are you going to be comfortable with her maintaining an ongoing social relationship with someone who would have lied to you for her or was laughing at you with her while she was having her "fun"??? I think most if not all will tell you toxic friends have to go.
(2) can you look YOURSELF in the mirror and believe that if you had caught her and not been able to verify with OM wife that your wife would have stopped having sex with him??
(3) do you truly believe that she has had no contact with him since five days after D Day, when she lied to you about NC. Personally i do not accept that breaking NC is to be expected and accepted.
You need answers the these questions for yourself even if you still do not want to answer on this forum,.

Lastly, now you know OM wife may divorce him or file also. You need to not blow the good fortune you have by having contact with her and you need to keep posted on their status as best as you can.
If he gets bounced out on his ass you can take it to the bank he is going to make an attempt to reignite with your wife, and that is why she needs to have a polygraph in a few months to insure if that occurs that you do not get lied to. He knows where she works, has friends there, some of whom may have known what was going on, and can talk to her at owrk without you having a clue. And he apparently is not far away geographically so do not get lulled to sleep just because they are not in the same office. 

Please understand that these things she is doing right now are things she knows she needs to do to have any chance. The question is would she have done them if she had a choice.


----------



## drifting on

Taxman said:


> Justice is a moving target, and is dependent on the victim's interpretation. In my wife's mind, I had to endure the same emotional damage that she endured. We spent time on this in MC. It was difficult to accept, but that was my sentence to accept or not. I could have easily walked away. The overriding opinion on this site and others, is that she should have not engaged in her revenge ONS. In therapy, she said that it gave her back her self esteem. It made her feel like a woman again, to have someone desire her. She also knew that, even though I was the perpetrator and had no ability to protest, that it would cut me. It did. As much as anyone here will disagree with me, it leveled the playing field. She felt that she could not go into a "Reconfigured Marriage" without balance between the two of us, and that she would always feel wronged without retribution.
> 
> Secondarily, you ascribe regret rather than remorse. First, you are NOT inside my head. Second, I write this from the perspective of someone who has been out of infidelity for nearly 30 years. Maybe I have picked up a thought or two in that time as opposed to someone who is pulling themselves out of this sh!it-pile just now. Certainly I regret everything. I regret getting myself into the situation where infidelity could occur. I regret having a situational depression coupled with a manic state, as my psychiatrist states. I regret forgetting my wife and kid to slip between the legs of a crazy 19 year old cheerleader. I regret waking my wife up to give her the ILYBINILWY speech. I regret leaving and not telling her where I went. I regret acting like a self centered idiot for weeks on end. I regret that she felt the need to get her womanhood back, as I stole it from her. I regret blowing up our lives. I regret flushing out savings and security down the drain for a lifestyle that was doomed from the beginning.
> 
> I am also remorseful for doing this all to my wife and child. I AM NOT REMORSEFUL FOR SEEKING TO FIX IT. I AM NOT REMORSEFUL FOR HAVING HORRIBLE THINGS HAPPEN DURING OUR RECONCILIATION
> 
> I regret one fvck of a lot. I still regret it, BUT DO NOT SAY I AM NOT REMORSEFUL, and since you are not in my head, you have no idea what rolls around up there, you have no business bashing if you haven't walked a mile or two in someone else's shoes




In your original post it showed regret, not remorse, then you come back with what is remorse. My intention was to show Cam that what you wrote is regret. I am sorry if you perceived my response as not having remorse. I have not said anywhere that you don't, or haven't felt remorse for your situation. As for saying you've been out 30 years and me as recently, maybe some learn quicker then others. As for bashing you it was far from it, but if you perceive it to be a bashing, I can tell you it wasn't. It was to help Cam pure and simple. If you don't like me, don't respond, if you care to continue this I'd invite you to pm me. As for your wife having a revenge affair I don't agree. I wouldn't ever cheapen myself to give myself away just because my spouse cheated. But that's me. I don't think less of your wife or you, people make bad choices every day. Some are just a worse choice then others.


----------



## Evinrude58

straightshooter said:


> Cam,
> 
> You may not believe it because of how ****ty you feel, but you are doing pretty damm good. But I caution you on doing the "family" stuff" because it sends mixed signals to your kids and your wife, but she is not my concern. If you have made the decision to NOT reconcile and simply suck it up for the kids, then until you do make a final decision you need to be consistent in your actions in my opinion.
> You keep mentioning the crying by your wife. You MUST put that out of your mind. She sure was not crying a short time ago when she was in gigglefest mode with her friends and prancing out indirectly taunting you with how great she looked when she went out to have sex with boyfriend. I'm sure you have shed a tear or two thinking about that night so let her cry to her hearts content.
> 
> I keep asking the same questions but for some reason ( I know you are overwhelmed) but you do not answer.
> (1) has she given you a detailed accounting of who knew, who encouraged, and which girlfriends must be eliminated from your and hers life if you R. or are you going to be comfortable with her maintaining an ongoing social relationship with someone who would have lied to you for her or was laughing at you with her while she was having her "fun"??? I think most if not all will tell you toxic friends have to go.
> (2) can you look YOURSELF in the mirror and believe that if you had caught her and not been able to verify with OM wife that your wife would have stopped having sex with him??
> (3) do you truly believe that she has had no contact with him since five days after D Day, when she lied to you about NC. Personally i do not accept that breaking NC is to be expected and accepted.
> You need answers the these questions for yourself even if you still do not want to answer on this forum,.
> 
> Lastly, now you know OM wife may divorce him or file also. You need to not blow the good fortune you have by having contact with her and you need to keep posted on their status as best as you can.
> If he gets bounced out on his ass you can take it to the bank he is going to make an attempt to reignite with your wife, and that is why she needs to have a polygraph in a few months to insure if that occurs that you do not get lied to. He knows where she works, has friends there, some of whom may have known what was going on, and can talk to her at owrk without you having a clue. And he apparently is not far away geographically so do not get lulled to sleep just because they are not in the same office.
> 
> Please understand that these things she is doing right now are things she knows she needs to do to have any chance. The question is would she have done them if she had a choice.


YEP! Her tears are "bs". I don't thinK I could ever accept this, since YOU had to find out and stop this. She had no remorse whatsoever about what she was doing WHEN she was doing it. She held freaking hands in public, was happy as a lark.
Now she's unhappy? NOW she's tearful? 
I believe a woman that had a conscience would at least have the decency to keep her affair secret and behind closed doors. What this woman did displays a total lack of character.

That being said, I wanted to reconcile with my cheater. I didn't get the chance, due to weakness. You are a strong dude. You will likely get that chance. Just continue showing the strength you have already. That's totally admirable. I suspect you wife will begin to admire that as well, and WANT you back again. Not just want the comfort of her life with you, she may actually start to look at you as a desirable man that shes' attracted to-- that's another step toward true reconciliation, I think. If you want to reconcile, make her freaking earn it. And when and if you think she is truly sorry about what she's done (if there is a snowflake's chance of that), you can go all in and hope for the best. 
I don't think anything in life is guaranteed. You just have to decide what is the best thing, and try for happiness. All your dealings with her from now on, forever, should be from a position of strength. I honestly don't think she deserves to be married to you again. I think at best she would be a live in. She pooped on "marriage" with you.


----------



## curious234

Cam,
By the time you posted for the first time you had found all the details and had contacted the POS's wife. Did your wife give all the information upon your asking


----------



## Graywolf2

cam42 said:


> So we get there and have a relatively good time, until our youngest just started to bawl on the ride home. Fearing the divorce and saying she doesn't want us to separate.


You’re at a fork in the road but it’s not the one you think. It’s not do you take the path to R or D. IMO there is a clear path to D and the fork occurs later. Gage the situation at the time and be as friendly as you want to be but do it as a divorced man. 

Almost everyone says that a marriage will never be the same as it once was after infidelity. You have to build a new one. Why not let no longer being legally married be a symbol of that? Do you tell your unmarried friends that live together that they must not love each other and have a bad relationship because they’re not legally married? My guess is no. Then why must you stay married to a woman that cheated on you? Live with her if you must but be divorced.

Let’s say you trust someone with a top secret security clearance and they spill the beans. They have demonstrated that they can’t be trusted with that level of security. You can fire them or drop their security clearance from top secret to secret. You do not have to give them counselling and therapy and spend years working with them to get them back to top secret. Just keep them at secret because they failed the test at top secret. They are not bad people they just can’t be trusted with top secret information.

Live with her and give it a try but divorce and stay divorced.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Cam42,

You are stronger than you think you are. I skimmed this thread again from its inception to the current time, and you get it. You ,I think, know what you need to to and what you need to see from your WW. have gained th necessary confidence in my opinion to take the path that is best for you. The quote related to your daughter crying, but that was not going to sway you to reconcile. You sir are a redwood tree. Solid, resolute, and determined. I am impressed with the swing in you demeanor and determination. I call it "grit". You are grinding it out. Keep doing what you are doing. Trust me. Your daughters see your strength of character. When they choose a husband, rest assured, they will want a man of strength and character such as you. Follow my hero Sir Winston...."when you are going through hell keep on going."


----------



## Relationship Teacher

Evinrude58 said:


> YEP! Her tears are "bs". I don't thinK I could ever accept this, since YOU had to find out and stop this. She had no remorse whatsoever about what she was doing WHEN she was doing it. She held freaking hands in public, was happy as a lark.
> Now she's unhappy? NOW she's tearful?


Just because she had an affair doesn't mean she isn't allowed to feel anymore.



> I believe a woman that had a conscience would at least have the decency to keep her affair secret and behind closed doors. What this woman did displays a total lack of character.


Character doesn't dictate how public affairs are.




> That being said, I wanted to reconcile with my cheater. I didn't get the chance, due to weakness. You are a strong dude. You will likely get that chance. Just continue showing the strength you have already.


Reconciliation is the [guided] process that pushes through the irrational behavior and erratic emotional outbursts.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Relationship Teacher said:


> Just because she had an affair doesn't mean she isn't allowed to feel anymore.
> 
> 
> Character doesn't dictate how public affairs are.
> 
> 
> 
> Reconciliation is the [guided] process that pushes through the irrational behavior and erratic emotional outbursts.


RT, what are you some sort of Zen Bhudist? Get real man.


----------



## cam42

Thank you everyone, polygraph is scheduled tommorrow and I told her we can not go down that route if she wants to make admissions. She's swearing on everything that her coworker is the only one she's had sex with since us being together. She has said she wants to quit her job and is asking me if that's okay. Also going to be asking her if she wanted to leave me for the OM and has she had contact with him since NC was initiated. 

Has also asked if she can move back to our bedroom, I told her no for the time being and she said she understands. I'm losing the urge to want to sleep with her, she just hurt all of us so bad so I can't due that anytime soon. 

It is my birthday in a few days. She has offered to pay for a nice outing with me and our daughters but has said she would love to come if it's okay. I told her I'm not sure if that's a good idea. Immediately started tearing up and said she understands. She also got me a $300 Amazon gift card and cried when she gave it to me. I told her to keep it and she is refusing too. 

I was thinking of just hanging out at home so she won't feel excluded, but I should be able to have fun.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> RT, what are you some sort of Zen Bhudist? Get real man.


What I said is the reality.


----------



## barbados

cam42 said:


> Thank you everyone, polygraph is scheduled tommorrow and I told her we can not go down that route if she wants to make admissions. She's swearing on everything that her coworker is the only one she's had sex with since us being together. She has said she wants to quit her job and is asking me if that's okay. Also going to be asking her if she wanted to leave me for the OM and has she had contact with him since NC was initiated.
> 
> Has also asked if she can move back to our bedroom, I told her no for the time being and she said she understands. I'm losing the urge to want to sleep with her, she just hurt all of us so bad so I can't due that anytime soon.
> 
> It is my birthday in a few days. She has offered to pay for a nice outing with me and our daughters but has said she would love to come if it's okay. I told her I'm not sure if that's a good idea. Immediately started tearing up and said she understands. She also got me a $300 Amazon gift card and cried when she gave it to me. I told her to keep it and she is refusing too.
> 
> *I was thinking of just hanging out at home so she won't feel excluded, but I should be able to have fun.*


Honest to God Cam are you kidding me ? Guess what, you were excluded when she was having sex with the POSOM. Remember that ? Where he hell is your anger at this woman ? 

Take a few days off of work, and go ALONE (or with some buddies) somewhere fun for your birthday. Tell her the kids are her problem when your gone. Just like that night when you watched the kids when she asked you how she looked when she went and banged the POSOM.

SHE IS SUPPOSED TO FEEL EXCLUDED ! SHE EXCLUDED YOU AND YOUR FAMILY FOR 6+ MONTHS HAVING AN AFFAIR !


----------



## *Deidre*

barbados said:


> Honest to God Cam are you kidding me ? Guess what, you were excluded when she was having sex with the POSOM. Remember that ? Where he hell is your anger at this woman ?
> 
> Take a few days off of work, and go ALONE (or with some buddies) somewhere fun for your birthday. Tell her the kids are her problem when your gone. Just like that night when you watched the kids when she asked you how she looked when she went and banged the POSOM.
> 
> SHE IS SUPPOSED TO FEEL EXCLUDED ! SHE EXCLUDED YOU AND YOUR FAMILY FOR 6+ MONTHS HAVING AN AFFAIR !


This. 

Some of you guys really need to start standing up for yourselves more. A few tears and she's bending you? 

I wouldn't R with her, that's just me. But, cheating is a deal breaker to me. Hope you choose wisely, whatever you choose.


----------



## OnTheRocks

Relationship Teacher said:


> What I said is the reality.


Your advice is great for people that are okay with living as a second class citizen and doormat. Next!


----------



## Relationship Teacher

OnTheRocks said:


> Your advice is great for people that are okay with living as a second class citizen and doormat. Next!


Please provide the sources/research for your advice to Cam.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

cam42 said:


> Thank you everyone, polygraph is scheduled tommorrow and I told her we can not go down that route if she wants to make admissions. She's swearing on everything that her coworker is the only one she's had sex with since us being together. She has said she wants to quit her job and is asking me if that's okay. Also going to be asking her if she wanted to leave me for the OM and has she had contact with him since NC was initiated.
> 
> Has also asked if she can move back to our bedroom, I told her no for the time being and she said she understands. I'm losing the urge to want to sleep with her, she just hurt all of us so bad so I can't due that anytime soon.
> 
> It is my birthday in a few days. She has offered to pay for a nice outing with me and our daughters but has said she would love to come if it's okay. I told her I'm not sure if that's a good idea. Immediately started tearing up and said she understands. She also got me a $300 Amazon gift card and cried when she gave it to me. I told her to keep it and she is refusing too.
> 
> I was thinking of just hanging out at home so she won't feel excluded, but I should be able to have fun.


Cam42, way to go. Be sure to let her know when you are about ready to enter the premises, any indication that she is not being truthful and that is it. Over. Done. You are done. Do not let her play you with her tears. Be a rock. I hope you have an experienced person administering the poly. I was advised to only ask 7-8 questions. They "calibrated" my wife with cards, asking her what she was holding in her hand. I told her one indication of a lie and you are history to me. She passed. The guy I had was retired law enforcement and he said he could tell my wife would be a bad liar.

Tell her you are also thinking of performing DNA tests on your kids as you have to wonder. You really have to knock them down and knock them down hard. Otherwise, they feel no pain for their transgression. 

God luck to you.

Ps: Be sure to ask if she has had any contact since Dady with POSOM. Ask her, also, if you divorce her if she is going to run to POSOM.


----------



## straightshooter

cam42 said:


> Thank you everyone, polygraph is scheduled tommorrow and I told her we can not go down that route if she wants to make admissions. She's swearing on everything that her coworker is the only one she's had sex with since us being together. She has said she wants to quit her job and is asking me if that's okay. Also going to be asking her if she wanted to leave me for the OM and has she had contact with him since NC was initiated.
> 
> Has also asked if she can move back to our bedroom, I told her no for the time being and she said she understands. I'm losing the urge to want to sleep with her, she just hurt all of us so bad so I can't due that anytime soon.
> 
> It is my birthday in a few days. She has offered to pay for a nice outing with me and our daughters but has said she would love to come if it's okay. I told her I'm not sure if that's a good idea. Immediately started tearing up and said she understands. She also got me a $300 Amazon gift card and cried when she gave it to me. I told her to keep it and she is refusing too.
> 
> I was thinking of just hanging out at home so she won't feel excluded, but I should be able to have fun.


Cam,

A couple of things. I hope you read this before the poly. 
(1) If OM no longer works there, WHY does she want to quit her job?????? I'll tell you why. Because some of her "friends" there or co workers know what was going on and she is embarrassed. She knows that it is going to be very awkward if she has to interact with people who knew and if she has not told them the truth and exposed them to you. YOU CANNOT LET HER QUIT HER JOB UNTIL YOU DECIDE IF YOU ARE IN R OR D. I am still at a loss why you have not asked her about this aspect, or if you have with everything else you have shared why you are not saying.
(2) not sure if the question about her wanting to leave you is a good one. I think the answer to that one is no and it is kind of a wasted question. She wanted to have her fun and keep you in the dark, as did OM, and I am sure she had no intention of leaving because you were clueless and she never thought she would get caught. 
(3) she wants back in the bedroom to attempt to lure you into sex. You need to think now with your brain above your waist. I suggest resisting that one.
(4) she is playing martyr and working you on the birthday thing. Take your kids and love them and leave her home. You are bnot a big happy family now so there is no use to pretend and you do not need the stress of putting on a happy face.
(5) again she is tearing up. She was not tearing up for six months. 

I hope one of your questions is does she have ANY E MAIL or apps that you are not aware of. Even if she has not broken NC or used them since D Day, if she has not disclosed them that is another lie. That is a simple yes or no question. The one about leaving you is not simple for her to answer because she may not know so any answer she gives might be useless. Do not waste a question.

And Cam, where is the written timeline so that there can be no " I don't remember" when you ask a question, and believe me you will.

Lastly, I would make it clear to her that this is not the last time she may sit with a polygraph examiner. Understand, in these situations, when the WW may think it is hopeless and f she thinks you are heading for divorce, that is danger time if OM gets dumped and reaches out. Remember, she still has never turned him down. He broke up with her.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Relationship Teacher said:


> Please provide the sources/research for your advice to Cam.


Some of us have real life experience with betrayal. You sir remind me of a college professor in his "ivory tower". No offense, but I call it as I see it. Have you experienced what we have?


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

straightshooter said:


> Cam,
> 
> A couple of things. I hope you read this before the poly.
> (1) If OM no longer works there, WHY does she want to quit her job?????? I'll tell you why. Because some of her "friends" there or co workers know what was going on and she is embarrassed. She knows that it is going to be very awkward if she has to interact with people who knew and if she has not told them the truth and exposed them to you. YOU CANNOT LET HER QUIT HER JOB UNTIL YOU DECIDE IF YOU ARE IN R OR D. I am still at a loss why you have not asked her about this aspect, or if you have with everything else you have shared why you are not saying.
> (2) not sure if the question about her wanting to leave you is a good one. I think the answer to that one is no and it is kind of a wasted question. She wanted to have her fun and keep you in the dark, as did OM, and I am sure she had no intention of leaving because you were clueless and she never thought she would get caught.
> (3) she wants back in the bedroom to attempt to lure you into sex. You need to think now with your brain above your waist. I suggest resisting that one.
> (4) she is playing martyr and working you on the birthday thing. Take your kids and love them and leave her home. You are bnot a big happy family now so there is no use to pretend and you do not need the stress of putting on a happy face.
> (5) again she is tearing up. She was not tearing up for six months.
> 
> I hope one of your questions is does she have ANY E MAIL or apps that you are not aware of. Even if she has not broken NC or used them since D Day, if she has not disclosed them that is another lie. That is a simple yes or no question. The one about leaving you is not simple for her to answer because she may not know so any answer she gives might be useless. Do not waste a question.
> 
> And Cam, where is the written timeline so that there can be no " I don't remember" when you ask a question, and believe me you will.
> 
> Lastly, I would make it clear to her that this is not the last time she may sit with a polygraph examiner. Understand, in these situations, when the WW may think it is hopeless and f she thinks you are heading for divorce, that is danger time if OM gets dumped and reaches out. Remember, she still has never turned him down. He broke up with her.


Well said sir. That is what I feel/see from his posts. Still all about her.


----------



## cam42

I already told her I don't want her to be around for my birthday. I will honestly take the offer she gave just to give our daughters a good time. They have had a super rough time dealing with this. I'm more concerned with them and don't want them to alienate them from their mother. It is not my problem though you guys are right.


----------



## OnTheRocks

Relationship Teacher said:


> Please provide the sources/research for your advice to Cam.


LOL. The sources and research behind my advice are my own experiences and heartbreak in my own life. I could not care less about the opinions of anyone else on the matter, especially those of my ex or an academic. NEXT.


----------



## Marc878

IMO you need to get away by yourself so you can think clearer. Maybe go to a friends or relatives for at least a long weekend. 

Get some clear air. You need away from this for awhile. Your wife can stay with the kids.


----------



## 3putt

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Some of us have real life experience with betrayal. You sir remind me of a college professor in his "ivory tower". No offense, but I call it as I see it. Have you experienced what we have?


Yep! All book, but no practical experience. He could learn more from reading threads here than he ever did while in school.


----------



## Marc878

cam42 said:


> I already told her I don't want her to be around for my birthday. I will honestly take the offer she gave just to give our daughters a good time. They have had a super rough time dealing with this. I'm more concerned with them and don't want them to alienate them from their mother.


The kids are in shock too. Give it some time. She's their mother. They'll come around in time. You can't rush that or do anything other than explan to them you'll both be there for them. It's up to your wife to fix her end with the kids.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Some of us have real life experience with betrayal. You sir remind me of a college professor in his "ivory tower". No offense, but I call it as I see it. Have you experienced what we have?


I have.


I am asking for sources/research that backs the advice being given to Cam. I have never seen said advice in any research or book on infidelity. Because of the circumstances and ramifications, it is imperative that Cam & fam. isn't further harmed. This is a situation that demands that we ensure that what we say doesn't have negative repercussions.

Long story short, is the advice given supported by therapists and counselors?


----------



## sokillme

*Deidre* said:


> This.
> 
> Some of you guys really need to start standing up for yourselves more. A few tears and she's bending you?


:iagree:

Passive men get abused.


----------



## JohnA

The bowling and simple things like that are an easy call. Your birthday is unique to you unlike your children's birthdays or hoilidays. So, it is a tough call. There are a lot of tough calls ahead so how you reach a decision is more important the decision. The process sets a precedence for the future. In well less then two decades you and your wife will be empty nesters if you reconcile. What will your life be like then? 

So to start what do you want to do Cam ether by yourself, with just your children, as a whole family, or even just with her? Consider them in the order I posted?


----------



## sokillme

cam42 said:


> I already told her I don't want her to be around for my birthday. I will honestly take the offer she gave just to give our daughters a good time. They have had a super rough time dealing with this. I'm more concerned with them and don't want them to alienate them from their mother.


What about the friend's and what they know. Have you asked her how her friends contributed to her affair. Have you told there husbands.

Don't let her quit her job until she has another job. Idle hands and all.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

sokillme said:


> What about the friend's and what they know. Have you asked her how her friends contributed to her affair. Have you told there husbands.
> 
> Don't let her quit her job until she has another job. Idle hands and all.


This is imperative should you decide to R. Toxic friends got to go.


----------



## sokillme

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> This is imperative should you decide to R. Toxic friends got to go.


I still say talk to the one that outed her. I think she made up the holding hands story to tell you to make it easy on you. I would bet some money that she was fed up with hearing your wife's bull, and disgusted.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Relationship Teacher said:


> I have.
> 
> 
> I am asking for sources/research that backs the advice being given to Cam. I have never seen said advice in any research or book on infidelity. Because of the circumstances and ramifications, it is imperative that Cam & fam. isn'tfurther harmed. This is a situation that demands that we ensure that what we say doesn't have negative repercussions.
> 
> Long story short, is the advice given supported by therapists and counselors?


i have a PH.D. From the University of Hard Knocks. Extreme actions by a wayward require an extreme response. Common f'n sense. You have to knock a wayward down and down hard. They have to feel your pain. They have to experi nice the consequences of their actions. Been there done that. We know what Cam needs to take under advisement. RT, for The love of Jesus! She asked him how she looked before she went to f--k other man the day before New Years. That is cruel and sadistic. 
She needs some pay back.


----------



## Marc878

Relationship Teacher said:


> I have.
> 
> 
> I am asking for sources/research that backs the advice being given to Cam. I have never seen said advice in any research or book on infidelity. Because of the circumstances and ramifications, it is imperative that Cam & fam. isn't further harmed. This is a situation that demands that we ensure that what we say doesn't have negative repercussions.
> 
> *Long story short, is the advice given supported by therapists and counselors?*


We have all seen some pretty bad advice come from so called IC and MC's. If you can find a good one great but it is a crap shoot.


----------



## jsmart

She probably wants to quit the job because there are co-workers that know what went down. Wouldn't be surprised if OM bragged about "hitting" that to his work buddies. Not to mention that everyone probably saw her melt down when she was served. So she's basically ashamed of herself. Which to be honest is another sign that the fog is lifting. 

She also probably wants to avoid reminders of OM. Even if he no longer works there, just being around the scene of the crime can bring back memories that she's fighting to forget.

If you want to R, I'd let her quit to help her recovery. If you're going to D, then insist that she stay for financial reasons and to just let her suffer the embarrassment.


----------



## TX-SC

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> i have a PH.D. From the University of Hard Knocks. Extreme actions by a wayward require an extreme response. Common f'n sense. You have to knock a wayward down and down hard. They have to feel your pain. They have to experi nice the consequences of their actions. Been there done that. We know what Cam needs to take under advisement. RT, for The love of Jesus! She asked him how she looked before she went to f--k other man the day before New Years. That is cruel and sadistic.
> She needs some pay back.


LH, you successfully reconciled with your wife. In fact, you quite often compliment her here on how she has been since your R. If I recall, your wife was also quite brazen in what she did. I think her entire office knew she was cheating, right? 

So, Cam's wife is showing remorse, and she offers to quit her job or do ANYTHING that Cam needs to heal. What is it that you saw in your WS that you do not perceive in Cam's WS? I'm not asking this for any other reason than to get your experienced opinion. What else would she need in order to be worth Cam saving his marriage? You must perceive something different in his wife that makes you think she is unworthy?

BTW, I have nothing but the greatest respect for how you were able to save your marriage. Is there any way Cam and his wife can save theirs? 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


----------



## GusPolinski

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Some of us have real life experience with betrayal. You sir remind me of a college professor in his "ivory tower". No offense, but I call it as I see it. Have you experienced what we have?


FWIW, I believe he's previously mentioned divorcing his (first?) wife as a result of her infidelity.


----------



## drifting on

Cam

Here are some suggestions for the poly, again you need to be exact in your questioning with as little words as possible. All questions must be in a yes or no format.

Do you have any email, apps or other electronic accounts I do not know about? 

Have you had sex with anyone but Cam and OM since wedding day?

How many friends know of your affair and who are they?

Would this affair still be ongoing if OM did not dump you?

Are you with me because OM dumped you? 

How many hours were devoted to your affair?

How many lunches did you have with OM? 

How many dinners did you have with OM? 

Was OM ever at our home? 

Did you have sex with OM in our home? If yes, where?

Did you have sex with OM in our vehicles?

Do you still love OM? 

Just some sample questions for your polygraph, use then if you would like to. God bless.


----------



## OnTheRocks

Polygraphs are junk science. Make your decision based on facts.


----------



## Malaise

I know I have trust issues and am cynical, but does anyone else read her tears as just manipulation ?


----------



## mickybill

cam42 said:


> She also got me a $300 Amazon gift card and cried when she gave it to me. I told her to keep it and she is refusing too.


Not to nit pick, but your birthday was a chance for her make a positive step towards reconciliation. Some sort of heartfelt "grand gesture". An Amazon gift card is something you give someone you don't really know but want to give them something but let them pick it out because you don't know them well enough or are not really interested in thinking about it. 

Buy something for the kids.


----------



## Marc878

mickybill said:


> Not to nit pick, but your birthday was a chance for her make a positive step towards reconciliation. Some sort of heartfelt "grand gesture". *An Amazon gift card is something you give someone you don't really know but want to give them something but let them pick it out because you don't know them well enough or are not really interested in thinking about it. *
> 
> Buy something for the kids.


I picked up on that too. Wonder if she got OM a hand picked gift?


----------



## SunCMars

cam42 said:


> I'm losing the urge to want to sleep with her, *she just hurt all of us so bad* so I can't due that anytime soon.


*The old wife:*

You are in your bed.
You are naked laying on your back. 
Your wife is sitting astride you [cowgirl].
Everything thing that you hold dear is near.
Is within arms reach.
Her wonderful personality.
Her beautiful face.
Her soft breasts.
Her hips atop yours.
Her fold hidden from view, not from sense.
Her head is held back and tilted to the right.
She looks down at you with a crooked smile.
You reach up to push the hair that blocks her face. 
Your index fingers trace the form of her ears.
One finger goes to her lips and caresses that grin.
Both hands then go lightly down her neck. 
The hands then are flipped to reverse. The nails lightly running down her lithe neck.
To the shoulders, the hands flip again and course down her arms.
Then back up to her chest. The nips are tweaked.
Your hands fall to her hips.
As a man, as a husband you are so happy with your choice.


*The new wife.*

Her backside is pressed down on your face, forcing closed your eyes.
Blinding you to her marital posture.
That familiar [fold] smell, that for years, was pleasant, has changed in texture and context. 
POSOM has been feeding her Chili Con Carnal. It goes in her mouth warm.
WW regurgitates that spicy mixture. She serves it to you cold, as a dark cloud over your form.
It comes out in the end and you are Gaslighted. The noxious odor stimulates Gut Wrenching Fear.

Before, you ask:

*What is she up to? To whom has she, my treasure given?
*
Now, has the Reality come to light.

You know what she did. 

She did you wrong. And not lightly....more like Go-Lightly.. the drink that makes you **** out your your heart.


----------



## ABHale

Malaise said:


> I know I have trust issues and am cynical, but does anyone else read her tears as just manipulation ?


Buyers remorse. She never believed she would be caught.


----------



## ABHale

Relationship Teacher said:


> Please provide the sources/research for your advice to Cam.


Real life.


----------



## MancMan

Marc878 said:


> I picked up on that too. Wonder if she got OM a hand picked gift?


This is a bit of a trigger for me. Without going into too much detail, part of my reason for suspecting my wife of an EA was a birthday gift she got the OM. It was something that may seem like nothing to others but I could see the thought she'd put into it (something she's not great at with presents). A personalised mug with quotes and such that they'd shared. She got a message from him when he received it (she'd left that job but left it with someone to give to him on his birthday as it was a couple of days after) saying how it was 'the best present ever'.

She couldn't understand why it hurt me so much as it was just something she'd got off the internet as it was quick and she wanted to do it without fuss so as not to upset me. The fact that it was very personal and the same as something she'd got me off the children for fathers day was just lost on her (supposedly). Just thinking about it now hurts which may seem stupid to some.

It's little things like that that will show how deep the feelings run. As the saying goes, 'the devil's in the detail'.


----------



## ABHale

cam42 said:


> Thank you everyone, polygraph is scheduled tommorrow and I told her we can not go down that route if she wants to make admissions. She's swearing on everything that her coworker is the only one she's had sex with since us being together. She has said she wants to quit her job and is asking me if that's okay. Also going to be asking her if she wanted to leave me for the OM and has she had contact with him since NC was initiated.
> 
> Has also asked if she can move back to our bedroom, I told her no for the time being and she said she understands. I'm losing the urge to want to sleep with her, she just hurt all of us so bad so I can't due that anytime soon.
> 
> It is my birthday in a few days. She has offered to pay for a nice outing with me and our daughters but has said she would love to come if it's okay. I told her I'm not sure if that's a good idea. Immediately started tearing up and said she understands. She also got me a $300 Amazon gift card and cried when she gave it to me. I told her to keep it and she is refusing too.
> 
> I was thinking of just hanging out at home so she won't feel excluded, but I should be able to have fun.


I understand not wanting the gift card completely. My BIL and his wife would give me a check for my birthday, I would in turn burn it to ashes. After a few years of this I guess they asked my wife and she asked my about the checks not clearing. She turned white when I told her what I did and why. 

Show your daughters a good time on your bday. Give them the gift card. You didn't alienate your wife from your daughters, she did that. 

Show your girls it will be ok by spending time with them without your wife. They need time to heal, they will make a new relationship with their mom in their own time. Do not force it. 

Good luck to day. I hope you find your answers.


----------



## eric1

Cam,

Please go back and print out each of straghtshooter's posts and go through them checklist style.

I have known him for years on these boards and what you are getting is precisely perfect advice. 

You really really really must start getting some answers.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

TX-SC said:


> LH, you successfully reconciled with your wife. In fact, you quite often compliment her here on how she has been since your R. If I recall, your wife was also quite brazen in what she did. I think her entire office knew she was cheating, right?
> 
> So, Cam's wife is showing remorse, and she offers to quit her job or do ANYTHING that Cam needs to heal. What is it that you saw in your WS that you do not perceive in Cam's WS? I'm not asking this for any other reason than to get your experienced opinion. What else would she need in order to be worth Cam saving his marriage? You must perceive something different in his wife that makes you think she is unworthy?
> 
> BTW, I have nothing but the greatest respect for how you were able to save your marriage. Is there any way Cam and his wife can save theirs?
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


Yes, they can salvage this marriage. I just sense it is still too much about her, and not about him from his posts. Yes, the younger women my wife worked with knew what she was up to. I do not think she is showing remorse yet in my opinion. Only Cam can see her body language and look into her eyes. I do not know how to explain it but I looked deep into my wife's eyes and I could see it. Cam,too, will know it when he sees it.

I do think she needs to find another job. 

Cam I truly hope the polygraph provides the answers you need to move forward.


----------



## Mizzbak

Out of (rather imprudent) curiousity, what exactly do all those who are belittling all cam's wife's efforts think she should also/rather be doing to demonstrate her remorse and willingness to do whatever she can to reconcile with cam? 

Many of you are accusing her of emotional manipulation, but FWIW I think there are posters here who make her look like a rank amateur. Cam is in quite enough pain as it is. You don't have to keep reminding him of the excruciating details of her infidelity to keep him riled up. He needs to make his decision from a place that is calm and rational. The decisions he is making now have real consequences, not just for him and his wife, but for his children and many others. 

Many of you clearly have an opinion about what he should do - but could you possibly bear in mind that just as cam is a real person, so is his wife? Committing adultery did not make her subhuman. And I think that jerking around his emotions for your own entertainment is sick. And jerking them around because you feel that he is not sufficiently angry is incredibly manipulative. (But of course, that is just my own opinion.)


----------



## Relationship Teacher

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> i have a PH.D. From the University of Hard Knocks. Extreme actions by a wayward require an extreme response. Common f'n sense. You have to knock a wayward down and down hard. They have to feel your pain. They have to experi nice the consequences of their actions. Been there done that. We know what Cam needs to take under advisement. RT, for The love of Jesus! She asked him how she looked before she went to f--k other man the day before New Years. That is cruel and sadistic.
> She needs some pay back.





Marc878 said:


> We have all seen some pretty bad advice come from so called IC and MC's. If you can find a good one great but it is a crap shoot.





ABHale said:


> Real life.



An opinion counts very little when the experience of an exposed affair is so traumatic and complex.

#1: The proffered advice to Cam primarily hurts him.

The very first thing in every treatment model for infidelity is to manage the impact of the revelation. Your advice is keeping him in his pain. In the desire to punish Cam's wife, much of the advice is ignoring the damage being done to Cam.

#2: The proffered advice hinders the ability (if reconciled) for Cam's family to interact in a healthy manner.

I don't have any information from Cam's wife's POV. What I can say is that if said advice is followed, it puts Cam's relationship at an increased risk of future affairs, specifically a conflict-avoidant affair, due to the upset power balance.

#3: Therapists and counselors are not universally trained in infidelity.

If one wants help that works, they are well-advised to determine if their specialist uses proven treatment models for infidelity. Proven = higher chances of happy and healthy reconciliation. The models include many elements to heal the betrayed partner that refuses or chooses to not reconcile. Many counselors use general approaches to work with presented infidelity cases and this is something that can be avoided by being a bit selective.

By getting help that is proven to work, Cam will feel a lot better. Yes, his wife will probably benefit directly or indirectly. She will probably end up feeling better, but will definitely be held to the fire of actually confronting the reality of her affair. The advice to exclude and punish Cam's wife avoids the actual confrontation that they both need.

Please take this serious enough to compare your advice to research-backed models. This family's future is at stake, so it is worth taking a bit of effort to ensure that the advice is sound.


----------



## dubsey

Mizzbak said:


> Many of you clearly have an opinion about what he should do - but could you possibly bear in mind that just as cam is a real person, so is his wife? Committing adultery did not make her subhuman. And I think that jerking around his emotions for your own entertainment is sick. And jerking them around because you feel that he is not sufficiently angry is incredibly manipulative. (But of course, that is just my own opinion.)


Always the big question, isn't it. How do you get to the new equilibrium with the cheater. In this case, the whole "how do I look" before going to be with the OM will be particularly difficult to get over. It's a level of betrayal on par with intentionally cuckolding him. I mean, she was rubbing it in his face on the way out the door, and he didn't know it.

How do you get past that and find a new "normal" of equality? I don't know that I could. I mean, revenge affairs are horrible, in general, but if there's a time that calls for one.... Gah, I just don't know. That was a particularly horrible thing to do.


----------



## ABHale

Mizzbak said:


> Out of (rather prurient) curiousity, what exactly do all those who are belittling all cam's wife's efforts think she should also/rather be doing to demonstrate her remorse and willingness to do whatever she can to reconcile with cam?
> 
> Many of you are accusing her of emotional manipulation, but FWIW I think there are posters here who make her look like a rank amateur. Cam is in quite enough pain as it is. You don't have to keep reminding him of the excruciating details of her infidelity to keep him riled up. He needs to make his decision from a place that is calm and rational. The decisions he is making now have real consequences, not just for him and his wife, but for his children and many others.
> 
> Many of you clearly have an opinion about what he should do - but could you possibly bear in mind that just as cam is a real person, so is his wife? Committing adultery did not make her subhuman. And I think that jerking around his emotions for your own entertainment is sick. And jerking them around because you feel that he is not sufficiently angry is incredibly manipulative. (But of course, that is just my own opinion.)


Sorry but can she fix what she has done?

This was not something she was trying to hide. She was going on dates with the other man in their home town. Out to dine, movie and a romp in the sack. Poeple looked on them as a couple. Just think, when these same poeple seen her with Cam in between her dates with the OM. Her loving on both of them. On top of this her asking Cam how she looked before jumping in the sack with the OM. 

Can she do anything to fix this. **** no. 

Cam has to figure out if he can live with who she really is, a CHEATER. Someone that thought of him as a roommate. Someone that really doesn't love him. Yes she cares for him and loves him in a way but is not "In love with him".


----------



## Malaise

ABHale said:


> Sorry but can she fix what she has done?
> 
> *This was not something she was trying to hide. She was going on dates with the other man in their home town. Out to dine, move and a romp in the sack. Poeple looked on them as a couple. Just think, when these same poeple seen her with Cam in between her dates with the OM. Her loving on both of them. On top of this her asking Cam how she looked before jumping in the sack with the OM.
> 
> *Can she do anything to fix this. **** no.
> 
> Cam has to figure out if he can live with who she really is, a CHEATER. Someone that thought of him as a roommate. Someone that really doesn't love him. Yes she cares for him and loves him in a way but is not "In love with him".



" On top of this her asking Cam how she looked before jumping in the sack with the OM. " That's twisting the knife.

Is she crying because she did this to Cam or because she's in damage control ?

As I said, I'm cynical.


----------



## Andy1001

Relationship Teacher said:


> An opinion counts very little when the experience of an exposed affair is so traumatic and complex.
> 
> #1: The proffered advice to Cam primarily hurts him.
> 
> The very first thing in every treatment model for infidelity is to manage the impact of the revelation. Your advice is keeping him in his pain. In the desire to punish Cam's wife, much of the advice is ignoring the damage being done to Cam.
> 
> #2: The proffered advice hinders the ability (if reconciled) for Cam's family to interact in a healthy manner.
> 
> I don't have any information from Cam's wife's POV. What I can say is that if said advice is followed, it puts Cam's relationship at an increased risk of future affairs, specifically a conflict-avoidant affair, due to the upset power balance.
> 
> #3: Therapists and counselors are not universally trained in infidelity.
> 
> If one wants help that works, they are well-advised to determine if their specialist uses proven treatment models for infidelity. Proven = higher chances of happy and healthy reconciliation. The models include many elements to heal the betrayed partner that refuses or chooses to not reconcile. Many counselors use general approaches to work with presented infidelity cases and this is something that can be avoided by being a bit selective.
> 
> By getting help that is proven to work, Cam will feel a lot better. Yes, his wife will probably benefit directly or indirectly. She will probably end up feeling better, but will definitely be held to the fire of actually confronting the reality of her affair. The advice to exclude and punish Cam's wife avoids the actual confrontation that they both need.
> 
> Please take this serious enough to compare your advice to research-backed models. This family's future is at stake, so it is worth taking a bit of effort to ensure that the advice is sound.


Your ignorance is personified by the exuberance of your verbosity.


----------



## ABHale

Malaise said:


> " On top of this her asking Cam how she looked before jumping in the sack with the OM. " That's twisting the knife.
> 
> Is she crying because she did this to Cam or because she's in damage control ?
> 
> As I said, I'm cynical.


This is actually what Cam need to figure out.


----------



## ABHale

Relationship Teacher said:


> An opinion counts very little when the experience of an exposed affair is so traumatic and complex.
> 
> #1: The proffered advice to Cam primarily hurts him.
> 
> The very first thing in every treatment model for infidelity is to manage the impact of the revelation. Your advice is keeping him in his pain. In the desire to punish Cam's wife, much of the advice is ignoring the damage being done to Cam.
> 
> #2: The proffered advice hinders the ability (if reconciled) for Cam's family to interact in a healthy manner.
> 
> I don't have any information from Cam's wife's POV. What I can say is that if said advice is followed, it puts Cam's relationship at an increased risk of future affairs, specifically a conflict-avoidant affair, due to the upset power balance.
> 
> #3: Therapists and counselors are not universally trained in infidelity.
> 
> If one wants help that works, they are well-advised to determine if their specialist uses proven treatment models for infidelity. Proven = higher chances of happy and healthy reconciliation. The models include many elements to heal the betrayed partner that refuses or chooses to not reconcile. Many counselors use general approaches to work with presented infidelity cases and this is something that can be avoided by being a bit selective.
> 
> By getting help that is proven to work, Cam will feel a lot better. Yes, his wife will probably benefit directly or indirectly. She will probably end up feeling better, but will definitely be held to the fire of actually confronting the reality of her affair. The advice to exclude and punish Cam's wife avoids the actual confrontation that they both need.
> 
> Please take this serious enough to compare your advice to research-backed models. This family's future is at stake, so it is worth taking a bit of effort to ensure that the advice is sound.


So you suggest to rugsweep and keep it between the two of them. That Cam should be begging her to choose him. 

What are you smoking?


----------



## Relationship Teacher

ABHale said:


> So you suggest to rugsweep and keep it between the two of them. That Cam should be begging her to choose him.
> 
> What are you smoking?


That is as misinformed as the advice I am criticizing. Cam should follow proven treatment models for infidelity. 

Is rug-sweeping advised in said models?

no

Is begging advised in said models?

no


----------



## ABHale

I for one am not here for Cam's wife. I am here for Cam. 

Should Cam go to IC, yes I think he should. But I will give my honest opinion when he asks for help with something. He can choose to use it or not. 

This is Cam's thread. Offer advice and stop belittling the advice offered by others. Cam will chose on his own what advice to follow. 

Also if Cam's wife wants to share her side, she is more then welcome to tell her side of the story. Let's not assume her feeling or motive with what Cam tells us. He needs to figure out this. He is the the one that sees her everyday. He is the best judge and jury here. Yes we all have our opinions and give advice accordingly. Don't beat Cam or other posters up for sharing advice. 

If this get me band again so be it. Cam is here for help so get off the soap box and let's help.


----------



## farsidejunky

Speaking as a Moderator:

Arguing over the best course of action is a thread jack, and it stops now.

The easiest way to avoid this is to speak directly to Cam.


----------



## TX-SC

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



Relationship Teacher said:


> That is as misinformed as the advice I am criticizing. Cam should follow proven treatment models for infidelity.
> 
> Is rug-sweeping advised in said models?
> 
> no
> 
> Is begging advised in said models?
> 
> no


I'm not sure what some of the others are reading in your posts, but they make sense to me. He needs to find a counselor trained in dealing with infidelity. There are certain models of dealing with infidelity that have been proven to be effective. In the long run, these methods have been helpful to those who have been hurt in this way. 

Every single instance of infidelity is bad. Every single instance is a stab in the back to the partner being cheated on. Some actions seem worse than others, but when it happens to you, the pain is significant regardless of the individual activities she/he engaged in. People keep talking about her asking Cam how she looked before going out. I realize that is bad, but there have been much worse instances. There is even one person on this board who reconciled after his wife got pregnant from the OM and he is now raising the OM's children. 

I'm not saying Cam should R. I'm not saying he should D. What I am saying is that in the end, he is in the driver's seat and needs to go with what feels right to him. As @LonelyHusband said, he needs to look his wife in the eyes and see what she is feeling. Is it remorse or just regret? Can he forgive her or does he need to walk away? 

Constantly beating him over the head with the divorce stick does him no good. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


----------



## ABHale

Cam have you talked with your girls alone about this?

If you decide to allow them to talk openly about it. This is a learning experience for them that will change or fix their out look on relationships. I assume they know everything, ask them what they would do if in the future somebody did this to them. Be gentle with them and don't put your wife down. You need to know how they feel and it will help them to be open and honest about their feeling in the future. They need to learn to talk about hard things. 

I talk to my three about things like this already. I get them to open up and share how they feel. I see it working with my oldest two and their relationships already. 

Have you thought of any IC for your girls.


----------



## GusPolinski

@cam42, I'd like to take this opportunity to advise you against taking any course of action or heeding _any_ advise that essentially amounts to learning how to apply just the right combination of condiments to a **** sandwich in order to mask the stench in such a way that you can actually swallow it.


----------



## Bloodinthecut

@cam42

This is one of my favorite song. Sometimes you can find solace in words. It just reminded me of your situation. 

This is war
Every line is about who I don't want to write about anymore
Hope you come down with something they can't diagnose
Don't have the cure for

Oh, it's so hard to have someone to love
And keeping quiet is hard
Cause' you can't keep a secret
If it never was a secret to start
At least pretend you didn't want to get caught

This is the grace only I can bestow
This is the price you pay for loss of control
This is the break in the bend
This is the closest of calls
This is the reason you're alone
This is the rise and the fall


----------



## curious234

Swayed by the stand of most posters I think the atmosphere has become some what vindictive which I think is not good if Cam decided to reconcile. I think LonelyHusband and DriftingOn can advise on how to strike a balance between showing empathy and keeping distance until a final decision is made


----------



## sokillme

ABHale said:


> This is actually what Cam need to figure out.


Just as important is if he can live with it. That will take time to figure out. She can be the most repentant WS ever and he may still eventually feel like he doesn't want to be married to someone who could do this to him. If eventually he loses his love for her because he doesn't see her in the same way, then her repentance even shame doesn't really matter. There really is nothing worse then the people who don't really have any connection to their spouses because of the way they abused them but still stay because of logistics. I get it if it is money, but you could always try to get some training or education to change your money situation. If you stay for the kids, growing up seeing a zombie marriage isn't going tho help them in the long run. The worse is when it is for health reasons. My heart brakes for those people. None of those situations are applicable here. 

Personally I don't think I could live with a person who did it to me. I like safety and closeness I have with my spouse, it's one of my favorite things. I also like the idea that I am special to my wife and vice versa, again that is part of the bond. I love my wife partly because of her character which is one of the reasons I wanted to marry her. If those things went away a big part of why I am married would be gone. 

I have loved others before her so I know I can love different people. I don't believe in "the one". I believe that there a whole lot of potential "ones" but a person becomes "the one" because you choose them to be that. I don't believe love is enough to have a good relationship. I would assume I could find all that somewhere else. Finally I believe I could have a content life being alone. I have been married and did the best I could. I was honorable, that is enough.

This is a big part of your choice Cam.


----------



## harrybrown

Your wife was supposed to have your back and defend you, not stab you in the back.

She is still addicted to the OM and the A.

I think your D will help your family.

She can stay with you in the house if she wants, but why be married to her?

I do not see it. She was so addicted to someone else. Her vows mean nothing. so file for D. She can stay in the house for the kids, and she can try to show you that she is addicted to you. 

But not as your wife. She killed that with her addiction and her A.


----------



## drifting on

Cam

Who your wife was (pre affair), who your wife became (during affair), and what she will be now (post affair), all need to be examined. I had to do the same, I thought I knew my wife, then she cheated, and now is very remorseful moving heaven and earth during the gift of reconciliation. People change, some for the better, some for the worse, but is your wife capable of change again? You now know your wife is capable of harming you and your family, and asking if she looked good before going on a date sort of makes it seem easy to her. Does she have it in her to change to become a better person? That is something you need to know, no matter what you decide. 

I agree with @sokillme above, you need to know what you can accept and what you can't. This will require self reflection on yourself, to figure out if her harm will continue to harm you. Her first priority should be to make you feel safe, from what you've posted she has not really done this. She should have realized what she had done to her family after the affair was found out, but she chose damage control. After the first time my wife attempted to trickle truth I ended the conversation. I had no tolerance for this, I stopped the conversation and the following day became my d-day. Two days after the paternity was revealed. I had much to digest, as do you. 

Figure yourself out, spend time with your kids, let your wife join you as a family of the kids and you want her to. This will require that you sit with the kids and discuss this, tell them you are undecided, but that no matter what, the kids will be loved by both parents. Your kids will then learn what it will require to have a marriage or how to dissolve a marriage. In my opinion the kids should know what is going to happen in their lives. 

I hope the poly went as good as can be considering the circumstances, that no new information has been discovered and that you have the truth. Something I would want to know is, for how long was she going to keep the affair going if it wasn't discovered? God bless.


----------



## eric1

Cam,

People posting in your thread are this all over the place is a valuable lesson. This turmoil you feel is both shared and normal.

You need to take simple and pragmatic action to protect yourself. Then figure things out.


----------



## JohnA

How did the poly go?? What questions did you ask?

It is good she is going to IC, you need to as well because you will be able to share info you might not want to post here. It will also help you separate adultery issues and marriage issues. 

You got several huge triggers that will never fade away completely, regardless of who you are with. Work on them.


----------



## cam42

Have you slept with anyone other than Cam and OM since the time we have been married? She said no and she passed. 

Are you still with me because OM dumped you? No, she passed. 

Was OM ever at our home? No, passed.

Do you still love OM? No, she passed. 

So there was another question and there was an admission before we took the test, I asked if she had any contact with OM after no contact was initiated, she admitted she did a few days after NC because they both were agreeing that they love their spouses and want to work on their marriage. 

So it was asked if had any contact with him after three days after NC was initiated, she said no and passed. 

I have to admit I was super nervous and probably more nervous than her, she started to bawl after she passed and that she's so sorry that she allowed our relationship to come to this. She asked if she could just hug me, I said okay and I appreciate her honesty. She hugged me and said she loves me but I told her I'm still not sure what I want to do... 

To be honest I was not expecting her to pass every single question but she did break NC a few days after it was initiated... 

You know I feel better only because this shows me our marriage before her affair wasn't a lie or a sham. If she failed one of those questions I don't know how would I have reacted.


----------



## stillthinking

So, some of the unknowns are now known. Were those the only questions?


----------



## drifting on

cam42 said:


> Have you slept with anyone other than Cam and OM since the time we have been married? She said no and she passed.
> 
> Are you still with me because OM dumped you? No, she passed.
> 
> Was OM ever at our home? No, passed.
> 
> Do you still love OM? No, she passed.
> 
> *So there was another question and there was an admission before we took the test, I asked if she had any contact with OM after no contact was initiated, she admitted she did a few days after NC because they both were agreeing that they love their spouses and want to work on their marriage. *
> 
> So it was asked if had any contact with him after three days after NC was initiated, she said no and passed.
> 
> I have to admit I was super nervous and probably more nervous than her, she started to bawl after she passed and that she's so sorry that she allowed our relationship to come to this. She asked if she could just hug me, I said okay and I appreciate her honesty. She hugged me and said she loves me but I told her I'm still not sure what I want to do...
> 
> To be honest I was not expecting her to pass every single question but she did break NC a few days after it was initiated...




So if I'm perceiving this correctly, your wife and OM had a discussion that both would like to save their marriages. This leads me to many questions that I would be asking.
1) so you both expect to be given the chance to reconcile?
2) if I said no contact, what exactly does that mean to you?
3) how noble of your wife and OM, have an affair then discuss what is best for them and they so eloquently decide their marriages?
4) exactly how long did this conversation take?
5) did your conversation end with a hug, kiss, or one final romp in the hay? 
6) your wife and OM have an affair, it's discovered, and as a final knife to the back of both spouses you discuss MORE personal information on your relationship? 
7) I, Cam, don't understand why you would even say one word to OM after no contact initiated, how well do you think I will take this? 
8) do you (wife) think for just one moment that I would be happy that you have chosen me? Your (wife) talking to OM just shows who was important to you (wife). 
9) what you should tell her Cam, is this, although you passed the poly you broke NC. At this point in time divorce is heavily favored. You should know that by breaking NC the consequences will be severe, and even your actions from here forward will be the most hard work you can imagine. You have had a six month affair, asked me how you looked before going on a date, and now broke NC so you can discuss how to save your marriages. I expect you to leave the home for a minimum of one month, leaving tomorrow morning. Only contact you will have with me (Cam) is regarding the children. After a month I (Cam) will determine if I need any additional time before allowing you to return to the house. 

Sorry Cam, breaking NC is huge. Pm me if you need anything.


----------



## sokillme

drifting on said:


> So if I'm perceiving this correctly, your wife and OM had a discussion that both would like to save their marriages. This leads me to many questions that I would be asking.
> 1) so you both expect to be given the chance to reconcile?
> 2) if I said no contact, what exactly does that mean to you?
> 3) how noble of your wife and OM, have an affair then discuss what is best for them and they so eloquently decide their marriages?
> 4) exactly how long did this conversation take?
> 5) did your conversation end with a hug, kiss, or one final romp in the hay?
> 6) your wife and OM have an affair, it's discovered, and as a final knife to the back of both spouses you discuss MORE personal information on your relationship?
> 7) I, Cam, don't understand why you would even say one word to OM after no contact initiated, how well do you think I will take this?
> 8) do you (wife) think for just one moment that I would be happy that you have chosen me? Your (wife) talking to OM just shows who was important to you (wife).
> 9) what you should tell her Cam, is this, although you passed the poly you broke NC. At this point in time divorce is heavily favored. You should know that by breaking NC the consequences will be severe, and even your actions from here forward will be the most hard work you can imagine. You have had a six month affair, asked me how you looked before going on a date, and now broke NC so you can discuss how to save your marriages. I expect you to leave the home for a minimum of one month, leaving tomorrow morning. Only contact you will have with me (Cam) is regarding the children. After a month I (Cam) will determine if I need any additional time before allowing you to return to the house.
> 
> Sorry Cam, breaking NC is huge. Pm me if you need anything.


I was trying to be nice and let it go for the night because you were so happy but she went to him to decide what she was going to do? What if he has said lets run away together? Just kind of shows where you are on the pecking order doesn't it. How do you even know that it's true, she may have gone there to beg him to run away with her. You will never know. Just more of the same. You wife is really a lousy wife. Even after the devastation she knows she put you through and her kids she goes and talks to him. I hope you told his wife this. Sorry but you can do better then this. gross.


----------



## farsidejunky

drifting on said:


> So if I'm perceiving this correctly, your wife and OM had a discussion that both would like to save their marriages. This leads me to many questions that I would be asking.
> 1) so you both expect to be given the chance to reconcile?
> 2) if I said no contact, what exactly does that mean to you?
> 3) how noble of your wife and OM, have an affair then discuss what is best for them and they so eloquently decide their marriages?
> 4) exactly how long did this conversation take?
> 5) did your conversation end with a hug, kiss, or one final romp in the hay?
> 6) your wife and OM have an affair, it's discovered, and as a final knife to the back of both spouses you discuss MORE personal information on your relationship?
> 7) I, Cam, don't understand why you would even say one word to OM after no contact initiated, how well do you think I will take this?
> 8) do you (wife) think for just one moment that I would be happy that you have chosen me? Your (wife) talking to OM just shows who was important to you (wife).
> 9) what you should tell her Cam, is this, although you passed the poly you broke NC. At this point in time divorce is heavily favored. You should know that by breaking NC the consequences will be severe, and even your actions from here forward will be the most hard work you can imagine. You have had a six month affair, asked me how you looked before going on a date, and now broke NC so you can discuss how to save your marriages. I expect you to leave the home for a minimum of one month, leaving tomorrow morning. Only contact you will have with me (Cam) is regarding the children. After a month I (Cam) will determine if I need any additional time before allowing you to return to the house.
> 
> Sorry Cam, breaking NC is huge. Pm me if you need anything.


QFT on every word of this, Cam.


----------



## TX-SC

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



cam42 said:


> Have you slept with anyone other than Cam and OM since the time we have been married? She said no and she passed.
> 
> Are you still with me because OM dumped you? No, she passed.
> 
> Was OM ever at our home? No, passed.
> 
> Do you still love OM? No, she passed.
> 
> So there was another question and there was an admission before we took the test, I asked if she had any contact with OM after no contact was initiated, she admitted she did a few days after NC because they both were agreeing that they love their spouses and want to work on their marriage.
> 
> So it was asked if had any contact with him after three days after NC was initiated, she said no and passed.
> 
> I have to admit I was super nervous and probably more nervous than her, she started to bawl after she passed and that she's so sorry that she allowed our relationship to come to this. She asked if she could just hug me, I said okay and I appreciate her honesty. She hugged me and said she loves me but I told her I'm still not sure what I want to do...
> 
> To be honest I was not expecting her to pass every single question but she did break NC a few days after it was initiated...
> 
> You know I feel better only because this shows me our marriage before her affair wasn't a lie or a sham. If she failed one of those questions I don't know how would I have reacted.


Aside from the broken NC, she appears to be doing what would be expected of a remorseful WS. She is obviously upset over the pain she has caused. She has proven truthful on the questions you have asked. You have every right to see this as a positive development. The question still remains: can you get over this or will this prove to be too much for you to R? Truthfully, the mind movies and feeling of betrayal may end up being too much to overcome, but at least you now know you have the complete truth, and that's a good starting point. 

If it were me, I would want to dig deeper into the breaking NC part. I would want to know who initiated it and exactly what was said. I would want to know why she felt that was appropriate given the circumstances. But, I would also be happy to know that I have the truth now. I would not kick her out for a month. I would want to be around her enough to see if I can do so without triggering. I would want to see if I even want her around or not. Don't rush this. Give yourself plenty of time to make the right decision. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


----------



## stillthinking

One of the true values of a poly, the parking lot confession. 

This part....


> she admitted she did a few days after NC because *they both were agreeing that they love their spouses and want to work on their marriage. *


Wow. How noble of her. Breaking no contact just a few days later to help save the marriage. So brave. So selfless. And are you not so glad THEY agreed to work on the marriages THEY destroyed? Maybe they can get back together in the future and write a book all about how to fix a marriage that was ruined for orgasms. I am sure it will be a bestseller. And let us not forget the part where THEY agreed that THEY love their spouses....fantastic. She loves you so much. I guess she just needed to screw another man to realize how much she loves you. That is true love. Isn't that what we all hope for when we find that special girl we want to marry? So happy that the two of them could get together and make these positive, life affirming decisions. Maybe she should have you call the OM and thank him for pointing your cheating wife in the right direction.

Nauseating. 

Stay strong and do not fall for the tears. Those tears cannot wash away this kind of filth.

Edit: (sorry if this comes across as super harsh. I just cannot stand it when WS break NC and then lie about it. Its salt in the wound)


----------



## sokillme

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



TX-SC said:


> Aside from the broken NC, she appears to be doing what would be expected of a remorseful WS. She is obviously upset over the pain she has caused. She has proven truthful on the questions you have asked. You have every right to see this as a positive development. The question still remains: can you get over this or will this prove to be too much for you to R? Truthfully, the mind movies and feeling of betrayal may end up being too much to overcome, but at least you now know you have the complete truth, and that's a good starting point.
> 
> If it were me, I would want to dig deeper into the breaking NC part. I would want to know who initiated it and exactly what was said. I would want to know why she felt that was appropriate given the circumstances. But, I would also be happy to know that I have the truth now. I would not kick her out for a month. I would want to be around her enough to see if I can do so without triggering. I would want to see if I even want her around or not. Don't rush this. Give yourself plenty of time to make the right decision.
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


Aside from punching you in the face everything seems real positive. /s She has been lying to him about this the whole time which in R terms means they haven't even really been in true R. The first time she was truly honest with him was when she told him last night, and that was done at force of Polygraph. I mean what is positive about it?

What is the point of asking here why she felt it was appropriate? She will have no answer. The reason is because she is broken. And worse because she was bonded to the other man, she wanted to say goodbye or to get him to change his mind about going back to his wife. As you remember he was the one who wanted to R with his wife. She really didn't care about Cam's feelings or even her kids. Guess she wasn't so into being married to him after all. So many of WS are like this. They are totally self centered and just plain off. So not worth the effort. 

When you know what it is like to be with someone whom you don't have to watch or psychoanalyze every minute. Whom you don't need to treat like a kid and decide what is the appropriate form of discipline. When you don't have to track their behavior to see if they are going to fall of the wagon. When you have a normal stable relationship. A relationship with an adult who just helps and uplifts and edifies your life you wouldn't waste a minute on this nonsense. 

See this is what it takes to R, you basically have to ignore logic and reason. sigh...


----------



## TX-SC

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



sokillme said:


> Aside from punching you in the face everything seems real positive. /s She has been lying to him about this the whole time which in R terms means they haven't even really been in true R. The first time she was truly honest with him was when she told him, and that was done at force of Polygraph. I mean what is positive about it?
> 
> What is the point of asking here why she felt it was appropriate? She will have no answer.
> 
> See this is what it takes, you basically have to ignore logic and reason. sigh...


Well, she was being truthful about the rest of the answers. Breaking NC is bad and I would delve into that more. But it is positive that the answers to the questions he asked were as they should be. I would want to know more about this broken NC before I made any additional decisions. 

Again, I am talking about what I would probably do. Cam will have to make his own decisions here, and that very well may lead to D. 

If he loves his wife and decides he wants to R, then I think this marriage can be fixed with time, but that's only if he decides that R is feasible for him and he wants to go down that path. Much counseling would be needed and it would not be an easy path to take. 

Again, I would want to know EXACTLY what was said and who initiated the broken NC. Were they seeking each other's validation? Or, if not, what was the purpose? Why did she lie about the contact? 

I'll admit that I'm pro R if the WS is truly remorseful and if the BS feels it is in their best interest. I see a marriage that could be salvaged here, but only Cam can make that decision. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


----------



## sokillme

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



TX-SC said:


> Well, she was being truthful about the rest of the answers. Breaking NC is bad and I would delve into that more. But it is positive that the answers to the questions he asked were as they should be. I would want to know more about this broken NC before I made any additional decisions.
> 
> Again, I am talking about what I would probably do. Cam will have to make his own decisions here, and that very well may lead to D.
> 
> If he loves his wife and decides he wants to R, then I think this marriage can be fixed with time, but that's only if he decides that R is feasible for him and he wants to go down that path. Much counseling would be needed and it would not be an easy path to take.
> 
> Again, I would want to know EXACTLY what was said and who initiated the broken NC. Were they seeking each other's validation? Or, if not, what was the purpose? Why did she lie about the contact?
> 
> I'll admit that I'm pro R if the WS is truly remorseful and if the BS feels it is in their best interest. I see a marriage that could be salvaged here, but only Cam can make that decision.
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


The ones who R always do this. It's "this is the line don't cross it", then the WS take two steps across it, and it's well now this is the line. The have to continue to accept less and less until the BS ends up having nothing left of themselves. Until all the standards that they always had for themselves when they thought of what they would accept in a relationship are gone. How many times to you hear BS say, I wish I had been stronger, I wish I hadn't allowed myself to talk so less. Over and over you hear it. Those standards are about self-respect. You can't be in a good relationship and love someone if you have lost all your self-respect. The WS love should not be treated like a drug that must be had at all cost. It's so wrong to encourage this because it makes others feel like it's a happy ending. 

It's really irreverent if he loves his wife. Most spouses that get cheated on love their WS, that has very little to do if they can R or not. It is always assumed that they love their WS or why would they be married to them. If they didn't they would just see the affair as a way to leave a love-less marriage. A good marriage takes so much more then love, and love shouldn't be SO important that you allow someone to treat you like crap. 

I really want to know how you think he can even believe anything she says about why she broke no contact. Please tell me what she can say that will make it any better?

His wife knew the deal she knew the requirements, he made it plain. She knew what she had don't to him and her kids at that point she was already playing the I can't believe I did this route. Cam was feeling sorry for her and once again she chose to lie to him and put the other man before him. That means she wasn't truly remorseful. Remorse means changing. She continued to lie at that point until today. That is what she does at this point she lies. It's her MO. 

He deserves better. Frankly everyone does.


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## JohnA

Cam,

Your wife is in IC. You need to be as well. In an IC relationship you can share a great deal more detail and shadings of feeling. You have a couple of huge trigger points. Especially the "how do I look". This will trigger you forever unless you deal with it and come up with coping stratergies. Left untreated it will cause you to lash out in snide, hurtful ways. 

Marriage Builders has a lot of good info on reconcilation as does divorce busters. (note MB is hated in general because of Plan A, Plan B which you are past at this point.) 

In the meanwhile be gentle, try to be thoughtful of her, but keep her at arms length for now. Do not be cold and unfeeling until you decide what to do. Finally stand up for you wife in matters of discipline with your children. Do not allow them to disrespect her. She will remenber this forever, reconcile or divorce. Do not allow your children to divide and conquer. This would be a disaster if you divorce.


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## JohnA

Have you read @MovingFrwrd thread?


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## straightshooter

cam42 said:


> Have you slept with anyone other than Cam and OM since the time we have been married? She said no and she passed.
> 
> Are you still with me because OM dumped you? No, she passed.
> 
> Was OM ever at our home? No, passed.
> 
> Do you still love OM? No, she passed.
> 
> So there was another question and there was an admission before we took the test, I asked if she had any contact with OM after no contact was initiated, she admitted she did a few days after NC because they both were agreeing that they love their spouses and want to work on their marriage.
> 
> So it was asked if had any contact with him after three days after NC was initiated, she said no and passed.
> 
> I have to admit I was super nervous and probably more nervous than her, she started to bawl after she passed and that she's so sorry that she allowed our relationship to come to this. She asked if she could just hug me, I said okay and I appreciate her honesty. She hugged me and said she loves me but I told her I'm still not sure what I want to do...
> 
> To be honest I was not expecting her to pass every single question but she did break NC a few days after it was initiated...
> 
> You know I feel better only because this shows me our marriage before her affair wasn't a lie or a sham. If she failed one of those questions I don't know how would I have reacted.


Sorry Cam, you got some good questions asked by others, but here is the facts
(1) she either MET privately in person with him or discussed with him YOUR future. I have asked all along what do you think would have happened if OM was thrown out. Its obvious your wife took not only lied about NC, but took part in a discussion to consider carrying on the affair and going underground. And from everything you previously posted, HE BROKE HER WITH HER BY HER OWN STATEMENTS.. This confirms had he told her lets elope things might not be where they are now. 
The questions someone asked about how this break of no contact went also is unanswered. Did they hug and say they wish things had been different.??? N o exactly NC communication.
(2) Since you now know she broke NC once, what happens if loverboy gets dumped on his ass. She gonna console hium. They did not part ways as two people who realized what they were doing was wrong. They parted ways as two who were sorry as hell they got caught and faced the possible consequences and parted with a "loving" goodbye. And she lied about if that happened at all. 
SDo now you have an OM out there who has your wife as someone he had something "special" with in their minds who in all likelihood expressed no anger at him for bedding her or assisting to put her in the position she is in. While you are twisting in the wind, her and loverboy are meeting to discuss what to do. I would not call that a great effort. She told you she had feelings and missed him so I would not bet the ranch there was not a big hug and kiss goodbye.

The two things your questions did not answer for you are
(1) does she have any hidden e mail or app accounts that you do not know about??
(2) what "friends"were in on this????

So now the clock starts. Fortunately, you do not seem to be "exhilarated" and ready to suck it up and make like nothing happened. After you ponder the above, what expectations do you have. She gets to go out with "girlfriends" or socialize without you with those that knew. We all know what they will tell her. They will tell her "good job". She weathered the storm, denied everything, and passed a poly. So Cam should just "get over it already".

You did a very smart thing by telling her this is just the beginning. You problem right now is when and if you can stop wondering what she will do when he contacts her again, and if his wife divorces him, he will tell your wife he loved her and from what she did, SHE WILL LISTEN , because she is not horrified. She got a nice pleasant goodbye while you were clueless.

I may have missed it but other than agreeing to not bang him, what has she offered to make you feel safe. ???? Now is not the time for you to do tghe "heavy lifting" because she passed a test. Now is gthe time for HER to tell you what she is going to do to be accountable and truthful.

ACTIONS over time Cam, that is what you are looking for.


----------



## TX-SC

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &amp;quot;emotional affair&amp;quot; with a married man*



sokillme said:


> The ones who R always do this. It's "this is the line don't cross it", then the WS take two steps across it, and it's well now this is the line. The have to continue to accept less and less until the BS ends up having nothing left of themselves. Until all the standards that they always had for themselves when they thought of what they would accept in a relationship are gone. How many times to you hear BS say, I wish I had been stronger, I wish I hadn't allowed myself to talk so less. Over and over you hear it. Those standards are about self-respect. You can't be in a good relationship and love someone if you have lost all your self-respect. The WS love should not be treated like a drug that must be had at all cost. It's so wrong to encourage this because it makes others feel like it's a happy ending.
> 
> It's really irreverent if he loves his wife. Most spouses that get cheated on love their WS, that has very little to do if they can R or not. It is always assumed that they love their WS or why would they be married to them. If they didn't they would just see the affair as a way to leave a love-less marriage. A good marriage takes so much more then love, and love shouldn't be SO important that you allow someone to treat you like crap.
> 
> I really want to know how you think he can even believe anything she says about why she broke no contact. Please tell me what she can say that will make it any better?
> 
> His wife knew the deal she knew the requirements, he made it plain. She knew what she had don't to him and her kids at that point she was already playing the I can't believe I did this route. Cam was feeling sorry for her and once again she chose to lie to him and put the other man before him. That means she wasn't truly remorseful. Remorse means changing. She continued to lie at that point until today. That is what she does at this point she lies. It's her MO.
> 
> He deserves better. Frankly everyone does.


If this was just a story on a page, I might agree with you. The reality is that human being are fallible and make mistakes and sometimes make horrible choices. Sometimes these choices are made with the intent to cause harm and sometimes these bad choices are made without the intent to specifically harm someone, yet someone (or more than one, i.e. the whole family) is harmed anyway. Ibwould want to know the reasons she gave to herself for breaking NC. How did she justify it. Was the intent to deceive or was the intent to drive home to the OM that she is DONE and don't contact her again. WHY did she talk to him and who initiated it, and then why did she lie about it. 

His wife cheated for several months. That's not a mistake. It's a very bad series of choices. She has indicated that it was a selfish act and Cam did not deserve it. She also indicated that she never meant to leave Cam or break up the family. This has now been verified through a lie detector test. 

So, what we have is a woman who was happily married and made a series of very bad choices over several months. These choices were devastating to her husband and she had to have known that if/when he found out it would almost destroy him. Yet, she did it anyway. It was a very selfish thing to do. He would have every right to D and walk away. 

All I am saying is that I think the marriage can be saved if he so chooses. I seriously doubt his wife would ever do this again. Do I know she won't? Of course not. But she does seem remorseful and that's a first step. Until he knows the logistics of the broken NC, I would not call it a deal breaker. If she admits it was to have him validate her decision to stay with Cam, then yes, that would be hard to get over. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


----------



## sokillme

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



TX-SC said:


> Ibwould want to know the reasons she gave to herself for breaking NC. How did she justify it. Was the intent to deceive or was the intent to drive home to the OM that she is DONE and don't contact her again. WHY did she talk to him and who initiated it, and then why did she lie about it.


Why would you believe her now?



> I seriously doubt his wife would ever do this again. Do I know she won't? Of course not. But she does seem remorseful and that's a first step. Until he knows the logistics of the broken NC, I would not call it a deal breaker. If she admits it was to have him validate her decision to stay with Cam, then yes, that would be hard to get over.


What do you base that on? Because she has been crying? She lied about this for weeks doesn't seem very remorseful to me. This was not, I can't believe I did that, I will never talk to this guy again. It was, I need to talk to him so we can agree together to move on. Your bar is very low. 

Besides that what you you base her not cheating on him again on? Seriously, give me an hour and I can pull up about 100 threads where the WS was just as sorry as Cam's wife is acting and after a few years when right back to the pattern. They cheat because there is something wrong with them, not because they don't know any better. Everyone who is of human level intelligence knows better. Hell she knew how he felt and she had a secret meeting with this guy. She was crying telling him she knew better and she was also lying about this guy. 

Even if she doesn't cheat, she has totally disrespected him and her family what's to stop her doing that in another way.


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## sokillme

JohnA said:


> In the meanwhile be gentle, try to be thoughtful of her, but keep her at arms length for now. Do not be cold and unfeeling until you decide what to do.


Why not send her on an all expense paid vacation while you at it. You are just too much.


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## JohnA

No, I am not saying pamper her. MovingFrwrd's reconciliation was heading for disaster until posters told him to knock it off. No one can live forever wearing a sack cloth covered with ashes. Divorce or allow little things like taking her bowling. MovingFrwrd let her sleep in one Saturday, got the kids our to wear they needed to go and bought home a cup of her farvorite coffee, left it for her and went on with his day. Where there still hard days ahead of course. Did they fall into bed and discover new love forever more, no way. 

I am advising him to be careful of tone, soften a little bit with small acts of consideration, allowing her to try to heal the marriage but never listening to the words or tears, judge by her actions. Look for remorse. Go to IC and clarify his thoughts. Be prepared to be judged and to judge on the issues of the marriage.  When she asked him how do I look, all I could think of man she really hates him. If he not discovered the adultery she would have tried to get him into his house. My ex did and he brought my ex into his. Why ? Who does that? There are a lot of deep issues here. 

In the upcoming months as the intial shock wares off he will discover the quality of his marriage was bad for him too. That in the course OS everyday life he accepted a lesser marriage figuring all marriages have ups and down and things will just work out. Then looking forward if they do reconcile in a year or two he will reach a plateau refered to as the lethal plane of flatness. Looking beyond that life as empty nesters. All major challenges that cannot be addressed as adversarues. 

Cam, the bottom line is reconcilation is never fair for the BS. They will always feel short changed. So why stay, what do induviduals who have recnciled say in hindsight. They say the marriage they have today is worth it. Unless you are clearly working for that goal divorce.


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## JohnA

Bottom line is empathy is a two way street.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



TX-SC said:


> Ibwould want to know the reasons she gave to herself for breaking NC. How did she justify it. Was the intent to deceive or was the intent to drive home to the OM that she is DONE and don't contact her again. WHY did she talk to him and who initiated it, and then why did she lie about it.


Even if she does answer, it will be hard to believe anything but the worst case scenario.

It was worth the risk of losing her marriage to contact him.

That means it was incredibly important. 

That also means that her reasoning does not pass the smell test.


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## Malaise

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



farsidejunky said:


> Even if she does answer, it* will be hard to believe anything but the worst case scenario.
> 
> *It was worth the risk of losing her marriage to contact him.
> 
> That means it was incredibly important.
> 
> That also means that her reasoning does not pass the smell test.


The problem she faces, as do all known liars, is if she is telling the truth now why should he believe her considering her history ?

She had one job, No Contact. And she couldn't do it.


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## eric1

The advice that Drifting On and Sharpshooter just gave you needs to be printed out and read 509 times


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## curious234

as bad as adultery can be this WW is 100 times better than most of other WSeS who are manipulative, have no feeling for BS suffering, forcing BS to keep it a secret and blame the BS for the adultery. I think she is genuinely remorseful and if they reconcile she would be a very faithful partner. Hope their breaking NC means they did not meet in person. One thing to checkout is whether OM is divorcing and if so what would be Cam's wife reaction to it. She said initially she missed the OM (apparently the POS OM never had such feelings when he went begging to his wife), so a contact after NC is not unexpected.


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## VFW

My first wife cheated on me, we reconciled, my wife cheated on me, we reconciled, my wife cheated on me, we divorced. Most folks will tell you that I was foolish to reconcile and could have saved myself the heartache. Many people on here will tell you to divorce, in an attempt to save you from further heartache. Still I don't regret attempting to reconcile, but you have to go into it with your eyes wide open. I believe that most relationships can be repaired, if both parties work to fix the problems. 

Your wife can't heal you, your kids can't heal you or make you happy again. You aren't going to get over this in a couple of weeks or even months. There is no guarantee that she won't cheat in the future and ultimately you are going to have to decide to step out on the ice. You know this woman better than anyone else on this forum, so you are in the best position to determine if you think this was a period of poor and selfish behavior or a pattern. Some people reconcile immediately, while other never can, most of us are somewhere in between. You don't have to make an utter and final decision if you are not ready. You can enter counselling and see where it goes. If you stay married or divorce it would be good to repair the hurt that has been caused here to help all move forward.

Many will tell you once a cheater always a cheater, no reconciliation, move to immediate divorce. However, I lean towards the advice of Alfred Lord Tennyson:

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Cam42,

Drifting On has given some solid advice. You need more info related to what transpired that day NC was broken. I do not know if a secondary poly related to that instance would be a good thing or not. The questions you had asked that she passed makes me feel somewhat better about your situation, those were the ones that I thought she might not have passed. But, granted breaking NC leaves you only with more questions, most notably, "Can I trust her?" This only you can answer.

The question is can you reconcile knowing what you know now? I still think it is a real possibility for you provided you see true remorse. Keep in mind she was in the affair fog at that time. I really do not think reality set in for her and she was likely in panic mode. It is possible they did not have "one for the road", but you may never know.

I do think there needs to be consequences for breaking NC. I would recommend she go to stay with her mother for a month as another poster recommended. Having her in your house right now is not good as it makes it difficult for you to think. Right now you need space. You need to see true remorse. I think she is moving towards it.

My question I asked myself was would my life be better or worse without her in my life. After careful and intense reflection, I did an abrupt about face and came out of my own funk and realized if she showed remorse, I could take a stab at it.

I took a lot of heat for my quick change of direction, but I did what I felt in my heart was right for me/us. I did not follow the sackcloth and ashes approach John A noted, but decided to surprise my wife by taking a long weekend a couple of weeks later at a nice hotel to reconnect, as well as it was our 30th anniversary. Point is my actions spoke louder than any words could have that I welcomed her back. I reflected on one passage in scripture after talking with my priest Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory." Point being, we are all imperfect creatures an in need of redemption as well as forgiveness. Read the gospel "forgive 7x7". I forgave, but I have not forgotten.


Has it been easy? no. Has it been rewarding? Yes. To sum it all up if this hard headed stubborn as a mule marine can forgive, you can to provided she is remorseful. Please get into IC as well as find a good MC. I would encourage you to find a good male MC. 

Just my two cents.


----------



## Doyle

Just wanted to say from what I read on here it seems like most waywards
seem to break N/C.

It just seems to be normal for them.


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## rzmpf

Doyle said:


> Just wanted to say from what I read on here it seems like most waywards
> seem to break N/C.
> 
> It just seems to be normal for them.


Compared to what they already did it only seems like a minor transgression and it's just not hard to rationalize a "last meeting/call/letter" if you were already able to rationalize having an entire affair.

Also if they are not already facing consequences because of the A they don't believe that would sway the BS's opinion and if they are already facing consequences, it can't get worse so who cares.

And the risk-reward-ratio isn't too bad, at least in their minds.


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## ABHale

What if he had desired to be with your wife when they broke no contact. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't he the one that broke it off. 

I am just don't see why they had to meet to say they wanted to stay in their marriages. Or was it to see if they want to try and make it together.


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## straightshooter

ABHale said:


> What if he had desired to be with your wife when they broke no contact. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't he the one that broke it off.
> 
> I am just don't see why they had to meet to say they wanted to stay in their marriages. Or was it to see if they want to try and make it together.


Cam,

This is what many are wondering. This crap about most breaking NC is NOT a proven fact, and breaking NC in an e mail or text is a hell of a lot different than sitting and "deciding" what they want to do.
It is obvious from your posts that OM wife knew first, and she obviously did not play the "pick me game" because OM was according to her begging from the gitgo to not have her divorce him. Unfortunately for you, based on what YOU have posted, your wife would have continued, and now you have no clue which one of them initiated the discussion, if you want to call it that and if that is all it was. Remember the questions are yes/no and you asked if she had had sex with any other men. Her breaking NC was confessed before the test and you DID NOT ask if the breaking of NC and "discussion time" included anything physical. These "in person ' closure" meetings very often wind up in sex of some kind.

Lets talk about remorse Cam. it is bull crap that she has all this remorse. If you remember, this self devastation occurred for the most part AFTER she got served. before that, anyone who would call that remorse I'd like to sell a bridge to. That is why I hope you know that you smartest move to date, and there have been a number of them, was to file for divorce, whether or not you divorce or not. 

Now before the reconcile at all cost crowd gets all excited, I am NOT suggesting to you what you should do regarding to D or R. Our job here is to help you think of all the pitfalls and traps so you do not wind up with another D Day. 

Cam, right now your wife is a mess, as are you. And probably your kids. There is no doubt she is very sorry NOW and out of self preservation has done some things that could and should be considered positive. What you have to get through is would she have had the same demeanor had OM wanted to be with her, and how on earth if he is set loose you will feel knowing he is out there.
My guess is as long as his wife is keeping her marriage to him intact that since she played nuclear right from the start that HE will not come "fishing". if that does not happen, all bets are off, and it will start with a seemingly innocuous communication asking "how are you doing". And based upon their amicable "parting of the ways", do not bet your 401K that your wife will do the right thing and bring that communication and ask you how or if to respond.

Your wife is also dreading work, which is why she offered to quit. you need to dig on that one, and you will find out her office friends either knew it all or were suspicious. if they saw her get served, its very understandable why she is so willing to quit, as well as her knowing if she quits you get more whacked financially if you do decide to divorce. You are too smart to let her quit, and you damm well better find out who she socializes with is your "friend" or "enemy of your marriage". i am not the only one who has told you that and no response. ignore that advice at your own risk.

Cam, there are some of us who would divorce over what she has done, and some who would reconcile even if she banged him again. That is your decision. You are now in a start of a long long journey if you stay with her, and if you choose that you should make it clear in a calm way that there are no more NC breaks allowed of any kind. And I would also tell her, even if you have no intention of doing it, that you may put her in front of a polygraph examiner at some time in the future to confirm she has maintained NC. She should agree to that with no hesitation.

When you tell her what you accept and will not accept, and please do that as regards to her accountability, where she is, who she is with, then you watch what she does. The literature says that those WW that resist that and look at it as 'punishment' are more likely to cheat again. She should feel it is the least she can do to regain your trust. I can Pm you a list of what my wife did with NO imput me if you want. i do not want to interject my story here. this is about you Cam.


----------



## drifting on

Cam

I owe you an apology, I'm sorry for my earlier post. Throughout this thread I've triggered some, workplace affairs do that to me. When your wife broke NC, all that anger and pain came rushing back to myself, and I posted harshly. Every worse case thought came forward and from pure anger I posted to be harsh on your wife. In my opinion my advice to you was the worst I've ever given. Clearly, I have given you a prime example as to why you wait to decide, emotions promote knee jerk reactions which lead to poor decision making. At three years out Cam, reading a story similar to your own will trigger you. You will feel the pain, the indecision, the doubt, the anger, and worst, the devastation infidelity caused. You will feel it because of what happened to you, and you will feel it whether you divorce or reconcile. You will get angry because you know another a person didn't deserve for this to happen with them.

Even though I posted wrongly, I hope to keep you on the middle of the road to your decision. The polygraph did result in some favorable news to reconcile as well as to divorce. What I need to remind myself of is that my wife ended her affair two and a half years before d-day. Your d-day is much more recent, therefore my wife had much more time to come to remorse then your wife has had. Remorse does not happen overnight, the WS has to process all the transgressions of their choices. Once they have processed all of their transgressions will remorse set in, and even then it may not if they are narcissistic.

Overall I see your wife trying to change, trying to repair herself. She is full of regret, shame, humiliation, sadness, but at the same time trying to avoid rock bottom. This is a natural instinct in all of us, and TX-SC in post 739 is absolutely correct. Notice how he stayed calm? Notice how he said all human beings are fallible? Notice how quick my anger set in? I have tried to stay middle of the road, tried to keep you from making an emotional decision, and yet I did exactly that. This is why infidelity is so difficult, many situations arise and you need calm to navigate through. Notice how lonely husband has maintained his calmness, how he remains on an even keel, that's what BS have to do. I failed at that, possibly causing harm to you, and that's why I'm sorry. 

So from here you need to sit your wife down. You need to tell her she has not made mistakes, she has made very poor decisions that have killed your marriage. You need to tell her that not only did she have an affair, she broke no contact to discuss with OM that they both have decided to go back to their spouses. So now you need to ask your wife these questions.
1. you broke no contact, how much does that show you have no respect for me?
2. Why should I try reconciliation? You can't stop talking to OM?
3. Do you still want to talk to OM, get marriage advice?
4. What would you do if you were me? 
5. Would you try reconciliation with me if I did this? Why?
6. What actions have you shown that you want this marriage? Remember, your first action was to break no contact to discuss our marriage to OM and to decide to work on this marriage. Is that a good start to reconcile from? 
7. Was six months of an affair not enough time for you with OM? That you had to have one last talk and then lie to me? 
8. How do I possibly reconcile from lies?
9. If we reconcile, and right now it's not looking good, what happens if we have an issue? Are you going to run to OM or a new OM? 
10. You have shown me tremendous disrespect, our children disrespect, yet you claim to love us. But everything you have done is the opposite, what are your real intentions? How do you plan to fix this? 

Cam you need your wife to answer these questions. She will have plenty of quiet time to do so when you and your daughters go somewhere to celebrate your birthday overnight. Take a weekend for you and your girls, tell your wife she has this weekend to either commit to this marriage or for her to leave. Tell her to schedule emergency time with her therapist, and that she, without a doubt, better begin to show more acceptable decision making skills. Tell her she needs to be a quick study, and that another poor decision may result in your mind being made up to divorce. Tell her that breaking no contact, no matter how unimportant to her was her biggest test and she failed. Tell her she has learned nothing from her affair, how it affected you and the children, and that breaking no contact has only solidified the fact she desires OM more then me or your family. She needs to feel this, because apparently she doesn't feel enough shame, she is still being selfish. 

I hope for the best for you Cam, and I believe this marriage has a chance to reconcile. Much needs to change, including you Cam, but it can be done. Get in IC, get your kids in IC, and start your path to healing yourself and your girls. Your wife is welcome to join in healing, but she has a long road to travel. My wife made poor choices too, until she committed, and from there she has done very well.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Wow.l drifting on you would be a wonderful marriage counselor


----------



## curious234

Drifting On,
I read your thread. It seems you have not got over wife's affair well. It is all round bad to let anger linger. When I get upset some time I read Dhammapada. One of its worse is - You are not punished for your anger but you are punished by it. Another method to cultivate goodwill is Metta Meditation. Hope overtime your anger bouts get less frequent and less severe. You have accepted the outcome. I am sure one day your sons will more than compensate for your unselfishness. 
Regarding the break of NC they were still working in the same office and WW had some feelings. So break of NC was very likely and it happened only once.


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## sokillme

drifting on said:


> 1. you broke no contact, how much does that show you have no respect for me?
> 2. Why should I try reconciliation? You can't stop talking to OM?
> 3. Do you still want to talk to OM, get marriage advice?
> 4. What would you do if you were me?
> 5. Would you try reconciliation with me if I did this? Why?
> 6. What actions have you shown that you want this marriage? Remember, your first action was to break no contact to discuss our marriage to OM and to decide to work on this marriage. Is that a good start to reconcile from?
> 7. Was six months of an affair not enough time for you with OM? That you had to have one last talk and then lie to me?
> 8. How do I possibly reconcile from lies?
> 9. If we reconcile, and right now it's not looking good, what happens if we have an issue? Are you going to run to OM or a new OM?
> 10. You have shown me tremendous disrespect, our children disrespect, yet you claim to love us. But everything you have done is the opposite, what are your real intentions? How do you plan to fix this?


I will say it again. Why should he believe anything she says, she said a whole bunch of stuff then met with her boyfriend and kept it secret for almost a month, and presumably forever if not for the poly. What more can be gained by talking. It's very unwise to believe the words of a liar, especially one who knows how to manipulate you, which Cam's wife is a master at. At this point she knows where she is at, talking about it again is just beating a dead horse, he needs to get past the stage of thinking long talks are going to somehow take his pain away or help him understand this. They never do the just end in frustration, there are no answers that are going to change the fact that she once again even after she knew that she had blew up her family decided it was more important to contact her boyfriend. Get advice from her boyfriend. Her boyfriend was the primary person she went to for a plan of action in her marriage and her life. I don't mean to pile on but to me this is just as big a slap in the face as asking Cam how she looked. I keep saying it because it's true. Not everyone can do that. Even many WS would do these 2 things. He needs to think long and hard about the person his wife is. Maybe she wasn't always this person, but she is now. 

Clear action by her for a long period of time and Cam being the kind of person who can look past this are probably all that is left to save this.

Cam tell the Boyfriends wife. She deserves to know.


----------



## sokillme

curious234 said:


> Drifting On,
> I read your thread. It seems you have not got over wife's affair well. It is all round bad to let anger linger. When I get upset some time I read Dhammapada. One of its worse is - You are not punished for your anger but you are punished by it. Another method to cultivate goodwill is Metta Meditation. Hope overtime your anger bouts get less frequent and less severe. You have accepted the outcome. I am sure one day your sons will more than compensate for your unselfishness.
> Regarding the break of NC they were still working in the same office and WW had some feelings. So break of NC was very likely and it happened only once.


Read any BS spouses thread and 90% them are not over their WS affair. For most there is no getting over it, it's learning to live with it.


----------



## sokillme

curious234 said:


> Regarding the break of NC they were still working in the same office and WW had some feelings. So break of NC was very likely and it happened only once.


Again what do you base that on?


----------



## curious234

sokillme said:


> Read any BS spouses thread and 90% them are not over their WS affair. For most there is no getting over it, it's learning to live with it.


I know it is hard. But living with anger only harm the self. It lead to sickness and even early death not to mention day today functioning.
Another phrase from Dhammapada "He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'--in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease"


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## eric1

It's pretty obvious that Cam needs to let his wife's boyfriend's wife know about the No Contact break.


----------



## Mr Blunt

The Polygraph was mostly very positive. *The one negative proves that your wife is very weak and adds to your inability to trust her*. Even if she cares for you more than the OM, or if she cares only for you, she is weak and cannot be trusted at this time.

*To protect yourself and make her prove her words and prove that she is stronger I suggest that you D for now.* The D will protect you somewhat, make your wife get stronger, or you will find out that she chooses to remain weak, will provide the consequences that goes beyond words and tears, and give your future desired R a solid ground in which you can build for years and decades.

*Allowing tears, emotions, and words for a few months to be the criteria for your actions is very risky*. Of course your wife is devastated; she got discovered and is learning that her betrayal is going to degrade her respect for herself, her self-esteem, her children’s adoration for her, her husband’s love for her, and her standard of living. In addition, her lover-boy-OM has dropped her like a hot coal and is begging his wife to take him back. *In short, your wife is very desperate for her own well-being and is willing right now to be very emotional and profess all kinds of promises.
*
I know it tears you up to think about not having your children around 100% of the time and ending your relationship with your wife which you adored in the past. *You do not have to lose your children 100% of the time with the D, you just have your children remain in your home and your wife also if that is your wish.* Your wife has claimed that she will do anything so this D and arrangement will also be a test to see if she is just talking or will back up her words with action by agreeing to YOUR DEMANDS. 

If you do this you can watch for a long time (I watched for 4 years) and then you will get much more convincing about your wife’s words. That is one of the most critical issues that you need if you are going to R and that is you have to believe your wife is remorseful and dedicated to only you and your children. You can always remarry her in the future if that is what you want. *Her ACTIONS for YEARS will provide you much more convincing that your wife is going to repent, be remorseful, and be dedicated with affection for only you and her children. *

I know that you are very shaken but do not compromise so that you can get an easy temporary fix. Emotions and words in the first year are very risky.

PS I think you have a possibility to have a successful R
•


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## curious234

sokillme said:


> Again what do you base that on?


From Cam post- "She did a few days after NC because they both were agreeing that they love their spouses and want to work on their marriage." So they were still in the same office


----------



## JohnA

@LonelyHusband42301 you also told a couple of posters and people in your life to shut up when they went over the line in putting your wife down, from day one. Which told me if she kept her act together and got busy trying to make things right the odds where you would try to reconcile. Yet you let your family members level her. Wise move.


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## JohnA

Cam, how does this fit your wife? https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/shrink/201210/are-you-people-pleaser


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## jsmart

Cam, could you clarify if the broken NC was in person or over the phone? 

It is very common for a totally fogged up WW to break NC for "closure." Many times these closure meetings are very emotional for the WW with her making declarations like "I'll never forget you." or "I'll always love you." some include one party wanting to convince the other to to lay low and take it further underground or worse leave their spouse to run off to rainbow and unicorn land. 

If that last NC was in person, there's a chance that your fogged up WW, would try to entice OM to take the affair further underground or worse attempt to convince him to leave his marriage and family for her.

You need to get more info on that broken NC.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Yes I did John A. Also, I was accused of rug sweeping when I made an abrupt change in direction and decided to R. Nothing could be further from the truth on that as my wife suffered the consequences. She still feels when we go to mass some in the congregation look down on her. Good thing was my family had my back and let her have it with both barrels. Cam can R also once he sees remorse. Thankfully, my wife knows the damage she did and has gone over and above. Even after what she did to me I love her more than my own life. 

Cam needs to take time and think it through. I feel the poly results were favorable, regardless of NC. Big thing was it appears she was truthful.


----------



## drifting on

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Yes I did John A. Also, I was accused of rug sweeping when I made an abrupt change in direction and decided to R. Nothing could be further from the truth on that as my wife suffered the consequences. She still feels when we go to mass some in the congregation look down on her. Good thing was my family had my back and let her have it with both barrels. Cam can R also once he sees remorse. Thankfully, my wife knows the damage she did and has gone over and above. Even after what she did to me I love her more than my own life.
> 
> Cam needs to take time and think it through. I feel the poly results were favorable, regardless of NC. Big thing was it appears she was truthful.




A man with honor defends his wife regardless of how she treats him. Natural instinct of any man, but like you have done, that doesn't mean you don't hold them accountable for her actions.


----------



## TX-SC

Anybody heard ftom Cam lately? 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


----------



## ABHale

Not sense he posted the results.


----------



## sokillme

curious234 said:


> I know it is hard. But living with anger only harm the self. It lead to sickness and even early death not to mention day today functioning.
> Another phrase from Dhammapada "He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'--in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease"


I agree this is why R is such a risk. Even if the R is good, most still feel these feelings they just suppress them. And yes that can lead to sickness and even early death.


----------



## sokillme

drifting on said:


> A man with honor defends his wife regardless of how she treats him. Natural instinct of any man, but like you have done, that doesn't mean you don't hold them accountable for her actions.


There is no honor in letting someone abuse you. NONE. A man of honor protects the life that God gave him and his self respect.


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## Satya

Cam, did you let her back into the bedroom?


----------



## Satya

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



drifting on said:


> A man with honor defends his wife regardless of how she treats him. Natural instinct of any man, but like you have done, that doesn't mean you don't hold them accountable for her actions.


While I respect where your first sentiment comes from (and think I see what you meant), in no way should a man defend a woman who behaves in stark opposite to his own value system (if an upstanding one by comparison). There is no honor or valour in that and it only allows bad behavior to prevail and flourish.


----------



## cam42

She said NC was broken over the phone and did they not meet in person. I got angry, told her I didn't believe her and demand she does another poly for the questions regarding it. She also told me he's the one who initiated it. Wife has agreed to take another. 

Anyway no she's not in our bedroom, this is something that has been bothering her the most. As much as I would like to have sex with my wife like most married men I believe she'll take it as validation that were fixed now. She has said she has read some about that and believes we should start sleeping in the same bed again. 

Anyone sleep with their spouse when they were in limbo? Of course this will only apply when she passes the poly. I believe she will but hopefully I'm right.


----------



## Malaise

cam42 said:


> She said NC was broken over the phone and did they not meet in person. I got angry, told her I didn't believe her and demand she does another poly for the questions regarding it. She also told me he's the one who initiated it. Wife has agreed to take another.
> 
> Anyway no she's not in our bedroom, this is something that has been bothering her the most. As much as I would like to have sex with my wife like most married men I believe she'll take it as validation that were fixed now. She has said she has read some about that and believes we should start sleeping in the same bed again.
> 
> Anyone sleep with their spouse when they were in limbo?* Of course this will only apply when she passes the poly. I believe she will but hopefully I'm right*.


The purpose of the poly here is to hammer home the fact you don't believe or trust her, that things aren't 'fixed'. That she needs to do a much better job if she wants to get back with you.


----------



## straightshooter

cam42 said:


> She said NC was broken over the phone and did they not meet in person. I got angry, told her I didn't believe her and demand she does another poly for the questions regarding it. She also told me he's the one who initiated it. Wife has agreed to take another.
> 
> Anyway no she's not in our bedroom, this is something that has been bothering her the most. As much as I would like to have sex with my wife like most married men I believe she'll take it as validation that were fixed now. She has said she has read some about that and believes we should start sleeping in the same bed again.
> 
> Anyone sleep with their spouse when they were in limbo? Of course this will only apply when she passes the poly. I believe she will but hopefully I'm right.


Cam,

You have every reason not to believe it YET , namely because she has admitted that HE BROKE UP WITH HER. it is also important she understand you are not going to believe much of what she says for quite a while. You MUST tell the OM wife this story because she needs to know that her husband initiated this break in NC ( if it is true) and she may be able to force the truth out of OM and tell you. Remember, supposedly he is the one that was BEGGING for forgiveness FIRST while your wife was denying what happened. I hope you dig on this issue. 

And if he was the one who truly did initiate it, why the hell did she go along with it???? You know why. because you were still really clueless at that point, she was stonewalling you, and she wanted to hear what he had to say, and was probably at that time hoping for a different conversation. Regardless, two people who destroyed two families had a nice pleasant conversation about if they wanted to continue their affair. 

Now of course all of that changed when she got served. Do not forget that.

You are correct to do another poly, and i hope on this next one you will question the involvement of her friends or other co workers. You might start with a simple " Do any of your friends or co workers know?" That is a yes/no question. if she answers no and passes I personally will fall out of my chair. If she answers no and fails that opens up some more TT that you will receive. You also have to decide what your reaction will be once she is convinced you are truly booking the test if you get some more "confession' about her story.

Now as far as her reading and sleeping in the bed, you do realize that SHE is attempting to decide what YOU need to get the marriage back on track. just as she decided that you had had enough space and she moved herself back in. T.hat is ass backwards

Having sex with her is a personal decision. That is not for us to tell you what to do. some go through this hysterical bonding. others find an attempt at sex this close to D Day starts the mind movies racing at a record pace.

You are doing great at not allowing rugsweeping. Hold firm buddy


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## Evinrude58

Cam,

I do think letting her return to the bedroom will definitely show her that all is right in the world again.

I just don't know how to tell you not to do it. 
Don't know what to tell you to do.

How does one not rugsweep this, but yet move on with the marriage?

If not move on with the marriage, why not just separate and divorce?

I guess you really need to decide what you want.
Do you want to reconcile with your cheating wife? I think she's more likely to do it again, than it was the first time. It's not like she's not already a cheater, and you will have shown you'll take her. Ack if she cries and puts on a big act for a few weeks.
Can you live like this?

I think if you are going to reconcile, just do it and hope for the best. Don't cancel the divorce because you still may want it.
Tell her that.

She should be giving you all access to every communication device, be home when she should be without fail, no girls night out Bs ever again, and if you feel a few weeks from now like you can't get over it, go ahead and divorce instead of wasting your best years with a woman that brings you stress and pain.

There has to be some consequences and some effort on her part to make things right.

Here is what I see happening: I see a woman that should be near tears for months if she sees the pain she's caused you. If she really loves you. 
I don't see that. I see a woman who cries when she receives consequences.

I don't think she sees the pain she's caused you or she'd be acting proactive instead of reactive.

You know her better than anyone, but you are emotionally attached to her and your emotions block you from seeing things like they really are.

Simplest thing that is probably best-- divorce her.

Hardest thing--- accept her back and hope like hell she really feels sorry for this, and won't fall for the next pecker hanging from a low branch. 

Based on the history--- she never intended to stop cheating---/ the smart money is on divorce as far as your happiness is concerned.


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## curious234

Cam, Your question might be answered by Sophie's story google under:
"Had an affair; husband found out. I disclosed and he filed for divorce"


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## Marc878

cam42 said:


> She said NC was broken over the phone and did they not meet in person. I got angry, told her I didn't believe her and demand she does another poly for the questions regarding it. She also told me he's the one who initiated it. Wife has agreed to take another.
> 
> Anyway no she's not in our bedroom, this is something that has been bothering her the most. As much as I would like to have sex with my wife like most married men I believe she'll take it as validation that were fixed now. She has said she has read some about that and believes we should start sleeping in the same bed again.
> 
> Anyone sleep with their spouse when they were in limbo? Of course this will only apply when she passes the poly. I believe she will but hopefully I'm right.


Everyone is on your timeline. No one else matters but what you want/think at this time.


----------



## stillthinking

How many questions do You get to ask?


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

cam42 said:


> She said NC was broken over the phone and did they not meet in person. I got angry, told her I didn't believe her and demand she does another poly for the questions regarding it. She also told me he's the one who initiated it. Wife has agreed to take another.
> 
> Anyway no she's not in our bedroom, this is something that has been bothering her the most. As much as I would like to have sex with my wife like most married men I believe she'll take it as validation that were fixed now. She has said she has read some about that and believes we should start sleeping in the same bed again.
> 
> Anyone sleep with their spouse when they were in limbo? Of course this will only apply when she passes the poly. I believe she will but hopefully I'm right.


Cam42, you still need more answers. By all means contact POSOMs wife and let her know as another poster has advised. Secondly, find out who the "toxic friends" are. Use the poly to determine if any of her coworkers or friends knew of their fling.
From there make her write out a detailed list if the answer is affirmative as I think that will be a yes.

Keep her out of the bedroom by all means but my opinion is she needs to go stay with her mom until you have more information.
Stay on your own time table. You are in no hurry. You are in a marathon not a sprint.


----------



## sokillme

cam42 said:


> She said NC was broken over the phone and did they not meet in person. I got angry, told her I didn't believe her and demand she does another poly for the questions regarding it. She also told me he's the one who initiated it. Wife has agreed to take another.
> 
> Anyway no she's not in our bedroom, this is something that has been bothering her the most. As much as I would like to have sex with my wife like most married men I believe she'll take it as validation that were fixed now. She has said she has read some about that and believes we should start sleeping in the same bed again.
> 
> Anyone sleep with their spouse when they were in limbo? Of course this will only apply when she passes the poly. I believe she will but hopefully I'm right.


She wants to bond with you, you can't detach and make a clear decision when you are bonding. You wife has continually shown that she will use your natural husband like instinct against you. Detach and pay attention. 

The idea that she thinks you would be fixed means she doesn't get it. Most WS don't get it. That is kind of the point. Even when they say the words, you wonder if they get it. The fact that they could do it means then may not have it in them to really get it.


----------



## drifting on

Cam

If, and this is a big if, NC was broken by phone and him initiating then I can feel relief. By that I mean she didn't intimate nor was this contact in person. Consequences still remain because she lied, discussed things, and never told you. If OM called and she spoke to him, you need to be told. Your wife hiding this from you shows no remorse, if she had remorse she would not have spoken to OM. I think it is very important to you how long she was willing to continue the affair had it not been exposed. If asked her head should go straight to the floor, she will say I don't know, but what you are looking for is if she even felt any guilt while the affair was active. 

What you need to do is to ask questions, like I posted before, so you can get insight to her mindset. If I interrogate someone I usually don't listen to their answers as much as what it is that they don't say. By asking hard questions you can see the lies, they expose themselves in time. You will find the answers by talking, by asking, and by getting into her head. It's fairly easy to do, just by learning the very minimal basics. If you posted the answers to her questions I would be able to tell you some things about your wife. 

If you want to do this by pm that's fine to, I'm only trying to help you make an informed decision. Talk to her, question her, even if you don't believe the words. But by asking you can get the truth. Ask her how many friends and coworkers knew, tell her to give you the names. You can also talk to them, I'm sure she gave them a lie as to why she was doing this. Get your answers Cam.


----------



## 225985

*Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*

Cam, it might not be important who broke it off first. Did OM break it off only because his wife found out?

She was in the affair fog. She was addicted. She needed something nuclear to end it, namely one of the spouses finding out. 

Wouldn't the result be the same if you found out first? Would either have broken it off if not discovered?

The ultimate questions you could pose to wife: What did you expect to happen with the affair? How far would you have taken it? Would you have eventually left me? 

Get answers and poly to confirm accuracy? Just a thought.


----------



## sokillme

curious234 said:


> Cam, Your question might be answered by Sophie's story google under:
> "Had an affair; husband found out. I disclosed and he filed for divorce"


I have seen that thread before. Very sad but for the husband hopeful. He couldn't have handled it better. The truth is, he was just a higher class of person then her. He was able to tell right away and basically sniffed it out and moved on. He will be fine probably better off. I feel bad for the kids and even her. What a waste. At least she has the introspection to know what she lost. Most don't.

The way he handled it is also the best thing for her too. Maybe she won't take her next relationship so cavalierly.

An interesting point to be made by the thread is what she says here:



> I always cared about my marriage and I never for a second ever thought about leaving my husband. My affair started out as more of an emotional affair and it became physical about the last 3 months of the affair. It was exciting and intoxicating I had chance to stop the affair but I just couldn’t I was really addicted to all the lovey dovey text and Secret meetings . I knew it was wrong but I thought if I was careful no one would find out and no one would get hurt. I was really in a fantasy. It was like high school all over again we didn’t have to worry about anything just about us. Obviously I wasn’t thinking straight. I knew if my husband found out there would be a fall out but It never crossed my mind that he would actually leave me we been together for so long I thought he would always be there. I took him for granted and now I’m paying the price.


A lot of WS think this way. There in lies the difference. People with high honor don't do it because they don't want to be that type of person, they believe in honoring their vows because they are vows. That is what is missing. Her reason even now that she is repentant would be because of all the damage she has done. It's still not when you make a promise you keep it. That is what I mean by a higher class of person. The difference in safety and integrity between the two ways of thinking is like a chasm. The BS must ask themselves do you want to married to a person who thinks this way. 

The other thing is some of us realize that you if you do something like this it destroys your integrity and eventually your soul. So even if you spouse never finds out you still have hurt yourself in a very profound way. This is a serious wrong you have committed. 

These are the things a BS must think about. There are more questions then just, well with the WS do it again, there is a serious gulf in the types of people you are. This can translate in to many things, for instance how you raise your kids. What happens when your kid get's cheated on. What advice you give them what advice does a WS give them.


----------



## farsidejunky

sokillme said:


> She wants to bond with you, you can't detach and make a clear decision when you are bonding. You wife has continually shown that she will use your natural husband like instinct against you. Detach and pay attention.
> 
> The idea that she thinks you would be fixed means she doesn't get it. Most WS don't get it. That is kind of the point. Even when they say the words, you wonder if they get it. The fact that they could do it means then may not have it in them to really get it.


In fairness, I don't think it is nefarious, as this post indicates.

I think it is desperation.


----------



## TX-SC

If the break in NC was initiated by him and you can verify with the OBS that this is indeed what happened, and it was by phone, you have a much better situation to deal with than some have assumed. It could be much worse. 

The hard part will be: 

1) Figuring out if she truly desires to be with you for the right reasons and you are not a backup plan.
2) Can she be trusted? She has lied and deceived and continueed to do so even after DDay. 
3) Can you handle what she has done and stay with her? D is the easy way out. No, it's not easy at all, but it's your easiest option. R will result in years of doubt and trust issues, as well as mind movies. Can you handle that? 

I think you have a good shot at R if it's what you want, but it will be a long and hard road. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


----------



## curious234

sokillme said:


> I have seen that thread before. Very sad but for the husband hopeful. He couldn't have handled it better. The truth is, he was just a higher class of person then her. He was able to tell right away and basically sniffed it out and moved on. He will be fine probably better off. I feel bad for the kids and even her. What a waste. At least she has the introspection to know what she lost. Most don't.
> 
> The way he handled it is also the best thing for her too. Maybe she won't take her next relationship so cavalierly.
> 
> An interesting point to be made by the thread is what she says here:
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of WS think this way. There in lies the difference. People with high honor don't do it because they don't want to be that type of person, they believe in honoring their vows because they are vows. That is what is missing. Her reason even now that she is repentant would be because of all the damage she has done. It's still not when you make a promise you keep it. That is what I mean by a higher class of person. The difference in safety and integrity between the two ways of thinking is like a chasm. The BS must ask themselves do you want to married to a person who thinks this way.
> 
> The other thing is some of us realize that you if you do something like this it destroys your integrity and eventually your soul. So even if you spouse never finds out you still have hurt yourself in a very profound way. This is a serious wrong you have committed.
> 
> These are the things a BS must think about. There are more questions then just, well with the WS do it again, there is a serious gulf in the types of people you are. This can translate in to many things, for instance how you raise your kids. What happens when your kid get's cheated on. What advice you give them what advice does a WS give them.


The Husband had his own affair (when he was a nothing person) to which Sophie forgave. But he did not return the favor. When I saw Cam's story I saw parallels between Sophie and Mrs. Cam. This shows how powerful the natural urges are. One thing Cam can do just to make sure he has peace of mind (if he reconcile) is to have a post nup.


----------



## GusPolinski

cam42 said:


> She said NC was broken over the phone and did they not meet in person. I got angry, told her I didn't believe her and demand she does another poly for the questions regarding it. She also told me he's the one who initiated it. Wife has agreed to take another.
> 
> Anyway no she's not in our bedroom, this is something that has been bothering her the most. As much as I would like to have sex with my wife like most married men I believe she'll take it as validation that were fixed now. She has said she has read some about that and believes we should start sleeping in the same bed again.
> 
> Anyone sleep with their spouse when they were in limbo? Of course this will only apply when she passes the poly. I believe she will but hopefully I'm right.


TWO polys?

Dude, you might as well buy the machine.

Also, NO SEX until you've decided to reconcile. Plus, in some states, marital sex AFTER learning of an affair means that you've forgiven the affair and thus can't divorce on the grounds of infidelity unless ANOTHER affair is uncovered. Better look into the laws where you live.

Where do you live? Which state?


----------



## sokillme

curious234 said:


> The Husband had his own affair (when he was a nothing person) to which Sophie forgave. But he did not return the favor. When I saw Cam's story I saw parallels between Sophie and Mrs. Cam. This shows how powerful the natural urges are. One thing Cam can do just to make sure he has peace of mind (if he reconcile) is to have a post nup.


When does she mention his affair. I didn't remember that.


----------



## Mr Blunt

Cam, the fact that our wife’s last Polygraph was mostly positive and that she is willing to take another polygraph is a good sign. If she passes the next polly your R possibilities are increased.

*The only way you are going to have your trust in her increased enough is to make her live up to her words*. If she passes the next polly, gives you legal documents so that you do not have to lose 50% of your time with your children, and then get legal documents so that she cannot take you to the cleaners financially, you will be in a MUCH better position in many areas.

After you do that then you will be able to watch her for a long time to see if she is really remorseful and going to make you her sole priority with the exclusion of all other men. *You can never count on the words, emotions, and actions in the first year.* Watch her for more than a year and you will be much more convinced one way or the other. *As LT said, this is a marathon not a sprint*
•


----------



## eric1

1. Verify with her boyfriend's wife
2. If he story checks out good
3. If it does it means she is hiding things and its regretful not remorseful
4. It's not a be-all-end-all but if she doesn't hit remorse then this will not work
5. Depending on how long it takes her to hit remorse it may impact your decision
6. Sex is, biologically, for procreation and bonding. You want to do neither with this stranger right now


----------



## gr8ful1

sokillme said:


> When does she mention his affair. I didn't remember that.


It was before they were married, before they were even all that serious (living as housemates but not "together"), when a very close relative died & he had a major crisis. She discounts that 'affair' completely and insists it was nothing like what she did. But back to Cam!


----------



## GusPolinski

curious234 said:


> Cam, Your question might be answered by Sophie's story google under:
> "Had an affair; husband found out. I disclosed and he filed for divorce"


That thread reads like a fine wine.


----------



## JohnA

Cam,

Intimacy is the single most bonding human experience. It is far more then intercourse. There are so many other emotionals that are experienced. For her intimacy implies a complete recommitment to her which it why it is so important to her. From an early age I think woman develop a sense that if they want sex with a man they can have it, the question for them is can they have a relationship. So to be told no, I have no interest in you sexually challenges a strongly held belief. So much so it causes a crisis of. "what is so wrong with me".

Have you ever heard or read older woman speak about the "I am not a babe anymore" moment? The time they first walk in a room a room full of men don't notice a "babe" walked in?


----------



## JohnA

To add to @drifting on thoughts about honor: a single action does not necessary define a person. In drifting on case, LonelyHusbands, case and Cam's case the adultery did not make their wife a K or a W or a S. To allow an outsider to make this type of comment is wrong. It speaks to the character of the BS not the WS. It creates yet another set of issues in either divorce or reconciliation. In the case of a serial cheater or adulterer the use of they are an attention W is harsh but fair but simply saying "they are attention junkies and you can't fix crazy" and simply dropping the subject is the wiser choice. 

I am sure LonelyHusbands husbands reaction fueled his wife's desire not to give up. If you read his thread he had no problem blasting her in person and to both their families and did defend her to his children although I get the feeling he did not encourage them to do so.


----------



## MovingFrwrd

cam42 said:


> She said NC was broken over the phone and did they not meet in person. I got angry, told her I didn't believe her and demand she does another poly for the questions regarding it. *She also told me he's the one who initiated it. *Wife has agreed to take another.
> 
> Anyway no she's not in our bedroom, this is something that has been bothering her the most. As much as I would like to have sex with my wife like most married men I believe she'll take it as validation that were fixed now. She has said she has read some about that and believes we should start sleeping in the same bed again.
> 
> Anyone sleep with their spouse when they were in limbo? Of course this will only apply when she passes the poly. I believe she will but hopefully I'm right.




The bolded part is helpful. Her reaction to it was not. She can't control what he does, and if you can take her at her word, (tough call there, I know) following that premise essentially he was the one who broke the NC. Did she say she couldn't talk with him and end it asap? What was her reaction to it? From your description it sounded like she did not end the contact asap. Even if it was a short conversation, this had to be hard to take. Playing armchair quarterback, she should have told you immediately or asap that he contacted her.

One of the things my wife did that began to re-establish trust was she told me each and every time the OM reached out to her. He reached out multiple times. She never did. As soon as she could, she told me in detail every time what had happened. 

I do agree with other posters that the OM's wife should be informed NC was broken. In my situation, the OM didn't tell his wife. His wife found out because either I or my wife told her.

As to sleeping in the same bed, well that's up to the two of you. Same with having sex. I would venture to say your future path of R or D with her dictates these answers. Gus pointed out that it may impact the negotiations if D is the end result. You may need to investigate that.

What's the update on the counseling? Both going to IC? Are you both in MC?

Just for ****s and giggles I'll share a story about the jackass OM in my situation. Apparently, their counselor had he and his wife write down a list of things the other had to agree to in order to stay married. At the top of his list he wanted a one on one, face to face 'closure conversation' with my wife. Needless to say it never happened. Apparently, she agreed to it, though. I'm guessing that may have caused some issues.


----------



## drifting on

Cam

On the issue of intimacy I would say to hold off. My reasoning is actually quite simple, but the impact is huge. Just tell your wife that being intimate is what caused all that has happened. She was intimate, but with someone else, and now you need to be clear to make your best choice. Being intimate at this point in time will result in the waters getting muddy and good decisions being placed at risk. 

Also tell her that the value of intimacy has declined. This doesn't mean the value can't rise again but it will be much different. Has she thought of this? Has she thought about what will go on in your mind the first time you are intimate? I consider intimacy to the greatest bond between spouses, it's where you give each other yourself completely, that to me has a very high value. It would be difficult for me to think it was given away for the simple fact it was fun. 

Without trying to read very much into this, I think your wife is trying to manipulate you. That's not remorse either, and it saddens me that she has come to this point. It is obvious she is still in damage control mode and not seeking avenues to make you feel safe. By saying she thinks being intimate would help your marriage frightens me, she is far from rock bottom and has a high opinion of herself. This still, even after having an affair that killed her marriage. She is still thinking about her and her only. 

Perhaps the best comment you can make is that you won't be intimate until you can see hard work and actions. This hard work and actions will be in fixing herself and actions that will show she is making you feel safe. Obviously, manipulating you needs to leave her now, being empathetic and compassionate would be a good start. Listening to you as you describe your emotions would be another good start, actions towards your emotions would be even better. For example if you tell her your pain, your devastation, she will ask what you need. She can then implement actions towards what you need. It's a tough road Cam but the chance us there to reconcile. IC needs to be doing double time for her, for she needs to fix herself and have you feeling safe at the same time. I just wonder at times if she has the strength within her to do this.


----------



## drifting on

JohnA said:


> To add to @drifting on thoughts about honor: a single action does not necessary define a person. In drifting on case, LonelyHusbands, case and Cam's case the adultery did not make their wife a K or a W or a S. To allow an outsider to make this type of comment is wrong. It speaks to the character of the BS not the WS. It creates yet another set of issues in either divorce or reconciliation. In the case of a serial cheater or adulterer the use of they are an attention W is harsh but fair but simply saying "they are attention junkies and you can't fix crazy" and simply dropping the subject is the wiser choice.
> 
> I am sure LonelyHusbands husbands reaction fueled his wife's desire not to give up. If you read his thread he had no problem blasting her in person and to both their families and did defend her to his children although I get the feeling he did not encourage them to do so.




This exactly, my wife has done nothing to anyone here, she hasn't done anything to our friends, and if someone disrespected her I would handle it. What she did was against my family and OM's family, and in my opinion calling her a derogatory name will cause a ruffling of the feathers. Me holding her feet to the fire of her poor choices is not abuse nor me being an asshat, it's what needs to be done if this marriage will continue. I too, am guilty of posting rather harshly, but even in anger, like this thread has angered me, I haven't used one derogatory term towards his wife.


----------



## straightshooter

drifting on said:


> Cam
> 
> On the issue of intimacy I would say to hold off. My reasoning is actually quite simple, but the impact is huge. Just tell your wife that being intimate is what caused all that has happened. She was intimate, but with someone else, and now you need to be clear to make your best choice. Being intimate at this point in time will result in the waters getting muddy and good decisions being placed at risk.
> 
> Also tell her that the value of intimacy has declined. This doesn't mean the value can't rise again but it will be much different. Has she thought of this? Has she thought about what will go on in your mind the first time you are intimate? I consider intimacy to the greatest bond between spouses, it's where you give each other yourself completely, that to me has a very high value. It would be difficult for me to think it was given away for the simple fact it was fun.
> 
> *Without trying to read very much into this, I think your wife is trying to manipulate you. That's not remorse either, and it saddens me that she has come to this point. It is obvious she is still in damage control mode and not seeking avenues to make you feel safe. By saying she thinks being intimate would help your marriage frightens me, she is far from rock bottom and has a high opinion of herself. This still, even after having an affair that killed her marriage. She is still thinking about her and her only.
> *
> Perhaps the best comment you can make is that you won't be intimate until you can see hard work and actions. This hard work and actions will be in fixing herself and actions that will show she is making you feel safe. Obviously, manipulating you needs to leave her now, being empathetic and compassionate would be a good start. Listening to you as you describe your emotions would be another good start, actions towards your emotions would be even better. For example if you tell her your pain, your devastation, she will ask what you need. She can then implement actions towards what you need. It's a tough road Cam but the chance us there to reconcile. IC needs to be doing double time for her, for she needs to fix herself and have you feeling safe at the same time. I just wonder at times if she has the strength within her to do this.


Cam,

Wise words from Drifting ON. But probably 90% of those following this thread have stated that you need the truth about the NC break. The offenses here
(1) she broke NC 
(2) she did not cut the conversation off. What happens next time he feels "down" and reaches out. 
(3) she lied and did not tell you.

Forget the NC and IC crap. Until you find out the truth. The therapists are not going to disappear. They will be willing to take your money at any time. if you find out from Om wife that she again lied about this NC break, do you really want MC????


----------



## MAJDEATH

Ask some tougher poly questions next time, really make her sweat:
1 Did you have orgasms with the OM?
2 Did he use protection, did you get an STD?
3 Did you perform sex with OM that you didn't with H: oral, anal, public places?
4 Did you always wear your wedding ring?
5 Did mutual friends/co-workers know about the A.
6 How much money did you spend on the OM during the 6 months?
7. Did you every have sex with both men on the same day? Did you wash in-between?
8. Who "crossed the line" first?


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Cam42, 

John A posted this on my thread. This is what my MC said my POSOM used to get in my wife's pants. He called it a "wedge technique". You Amy want to read and discuss with your wife.


Hi, I attempted to re-write F-102's post about how an EA than PA starts with an ex. I think it describes what your MC called a wedge issue. (please note, any feedback for editing is appreciated) 

Work place E/A P/A

I have modified a post I read on how an EX can entered back into a spouses life. *A work place relationship cam and often is *a far more dangerous situation to a marriage. *It creates a strong bonding experience of working as a team, developing goals, implementing a plan of a plan of action, overcoming problems, and sharing a successful outcome. *These are common traits in a successful marriage. *

A perfect storm is about to happen.*

They talk about and basks in their shared success,
They eagerly look forward to working on the next project.*
They begin to discuss their children and how great they are,*
Their families
How you're an excellent parent*
How lucky they are to have such great spouses.*
How you' each of you is a wonderful suppose.*
How great their jobs are.*
But how the job keeps both of *you busy
How the *job keeps you away
How they sometimes feels a little lonely and disconnected
How they sometimes feels a little overburdened because the spouse into*
**pulling their weight.*
How they sometimes feels a little taken for granted
How they *feels that you don't ALWAYS listen to them
How they *feels that you don't ALWAYS understand them.*
How they feel that sometimes you're just "not there" for her
How, okay... Their spouse are not ALWAYS such a wonderful person.*
How they loved working together*
How they wish their spouses where as easy to work together like the *
**two of you.*
How they feel young again
How they find feel appreciated, something their spouses don't do.*
How they feel attractive again
How it's so nice to have someone who just LISTENS to them
How it's been so, so long since their spouses *made them feel that w
Then BOOM their eyes have now been opened
How they *now realizes what *truly wants and needs are *each other*
How they *now realizes that there spouses could NEVER give them that
How insensitive their spruces *can be be some times
How they *can be a real jerks sometimes
How they wonders if they should say married*
How they *now realizes that they never really loved their spouse*
How they *now realizes that they want inna marriage what they have at *
** *Work with each other,*
How they ever could have fallen for a jerk like their spouses*
How their spouses the biggest a++hole she's ever known
How their spouses are *standing in the way of her true happiness
How their spouses ruined their *life
How they *made a big mistake marrying their *spouses*
How they are made an even bigger mistake letting not being with each*
**each other*
How now they see that the two of you are really meant to be together
How they desperately need *to get away from their *spouse*
How they definitely going to leave their spouse*
They are now comparing notes from *talking to divorce lawyers
How they're going to live happily ever after...

...get the pic


----------



## sokillme

GusPolinski said:


> That thread reads like a fine wine.


Notice how well the husband did but taking definitive actions. This is the same for so many who take control. Those who waffle are always in pain much longer. All you have to do is read a lot of these threads and the pattern is clear.


----------



## sokillme

drifting on said:


> This exactly, my wife has done nothing to anyone here, she hasn't done anything to our friends, and if someone disrespected her I would handle it. What she did was against my family and OM's family, and in my opinion calling her a derogatory name will cause a ruffling of the feathers. Me holding her feet to the fire of her poor choices is not abuse nor me being an asshat, it's what needs to be done if this marriage will continue. I too, am guilty of posting rather harshly, but even in anger, like this thread has angered me, I haven't used one derogatory term towards his wife.


She has hurt society though. People who cheat diminish marriage especially when they get away with it (not saying this is your wife). However, I am convinced many of the young people who are cynical about marriage are because of stories of cheaters and how many of them seem to get the best deal of it. Especially the ones who seem to have their fun and are accepted back with open arms. Very many with little consequences. 

I also think people who encourage R at all cost do a great disservice to society for the same reason.


----------



## *Deidre*

Just a question...why do you all put yourself through SOOOO much drama over someone who sorry to say...didn't 'make a mistake,' they deliberately lied to you...repeatedly...and probably still would be had they not been caught. Why? Polygraphs? Just so much drama. 

And your wife wants to come back in your bed to manipulate you, cam...once sex enters back into things, you'll forget all about what she did...she is thinking. Be careful.


----------



## sokillme

*Deidre* said:


> Just a question...why do you all put yourself through SOOOO much drama over someone who sorry to say...didn't 'make a mistake,' they deliberately lied to you...repeatedly...and probably still would be had they not been caught. Why? Polygraphs? Just so much drama.
> 
> And your wife wants to come back in your bed to manipulate you, cam...once sex enters back into things, you'll forget all about what she did...she is thinking. Be careful.


Couldn't agree more. Years and years of drama. Even the happily R posters on her have so much drama.


----------



## *Deidre*

sokillme said:


> Couldn't agree more. Years and years of drama. Even the happily R posters on her have so much drama.


Yea, I mean...I get that people don't want to lose their marriages, but wow...when do some of you find time for anything other than monitoring your spouses? And making appts for polygraphs? Some of you have kids, do they see this madness? Don't say that your kids don't know or see your stress, trust me, they do. I say this in kindness, but some of you really need to reflect on why you are so obsessed with your spouses. Obsession isn't love. Obsessed with the finding and contacting OM's and OW's...I mean, when do you live your lives? Or is this consuming your every thought? Marriage, even a good marriage, shouldn't consume your every single thought. But, a horrible, toxic marriage definitely shouldn't. That's what some of you are in, and I'm sorry...but, why you are hanging on to poison, is beyond me. Poison doesn't change its properties, just because you take it in small doses.

I think there are some success stories on here, but even for those, the headaches, mistrust, triggers, and drama never seems to end. I just feel so bad for some of you, your lives are worth so much more than proving to your jerk of a spouse that you deserve their respect.


----------



## Malaise

drifting on said:


> Also tell her that the value of intimacy has declined. This doesn't mean the value can't rise again but it will be much different. Has she thought of this? Has she thought about what will go on in your mind the first time you are intimate? I consider intimacy to the greatest bond between spouses, it's where you give each other yourself completely, that to me has a very high value. It would be difficult for me to think it was given away for the simple fact it was fun.


Intimacy is her currency. She spent it with OM and now with Cam she's trying to buy her way back into his life. She doesn't respect it, she uses it.


----------



## *Deidre*

Malaise said:


> Intimacy is her currency. She spent it with OM and now with Cam she's trying to buy her way back into his life. She doesn't respect it, she uses it.


This.


----------



## *Deidre*

And the other thing I've noticed with couples who R...is that the BS seems to pull out the affair, whenever there is perhaps a totally irrelevant source of stress for the couple. But, he/she gets to do that, because he/she was the betrayed one. I think the problem with R from these situations, is that it creates this perpetual victim mentality...and the WS needs to keep making up for what pain they caused...indefinitely. Even well into R, it seems like at any time, the BS can pull out the affair and throw it up in the WS face, and the WS has to swallow it. IOW, the marriage dynamic is forever changed. 

I understand this is all so incredibly difficult and complex, but if you are ordering polygraphs and following your spouse around, obsessed with his/her every move, do you ever wonder if you're just totally losing yourself in this? Losing your own joy for life, and identity? When is enough...enough?


----------



## sokillme

*Deidre* said:


> And the other thing I've noticed with couples who R...is that the BS seems to pull out the affair, whenever there is perhaps a totally irrelevant source of stress for the couple. But, he/she gets to do that, because he/she was the betrayed one. I think the problem with R from these situations, is that it creates this perpetual victim mentality...and the WS needs to keep making up for what pain they caused...indefinitely. Even well into R, it seems like at any time, the BS can pull out the affair and throw it up in the WS face, and the WS has to swallow it. IOW, the marriage dynamic is forever changed.
> 
> I understand this is all so incredibly difficult and complex, but if you are ordering polygraphs and following your spouse around, obsessed with his/her every move, do you ever wonder if you're just totally losing yourself in this? Losing your own joy for life, and identity? When is enough...enough?


Yep, this is why I said when you have a spouse that you don't have to treat like a child your life can be so much more fulfilling. This is not the normal dynamic of a marriage or what it was supposed to be. The bottom line is they are just not worth it. In the end what is the payoff?


----------



## Satya

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*

@*Deidre*, I think much of the behavior of BSs comes from years of lack of self care and self respect, coupled with not a very good sense of general resilience. When you've been mistreated or emotionally manipulated by a spouse for so long, it becomes your normal. Some people just can't see how unhealthy it is for them, even when they're finally out of it. It takes time to break to the surface after learning to breathe in the toxic ocean. 

I had 13 years with a past manipulative ex. If you put the me I am now next to the me at the time I was divorcing, it'd look like Superwoman standing next to female Erkel. I'm lucky that I had enough resilience in me, but by no means did I heal as fast as I needed or wanted to. 

That's probably because I didn't know about TAM until after the hardest of my work had already been done.


----------



## drifting on

sokillme said:


> She has hurt society though. People who cheat diminish marriage especially when they get away with it (not saying this is your wife). However, I am convinced many of the young people who are cynical about marriage are because of stories of cheaters and how many of them seem to get the best deal of it. Especially the ones who seem to have their fun and are accepted back with open arms. Very many with little consequences.
> 
> I also think people who encourage R at all cost do a great disservice to society for the same reason.




I have a very good friend who's son just graduated from college last year. He is disgusted with the women of his age, as he says some are saving themselves for marriage, but almost all don't view oral sex as sex. He values intimacy, and while you may have one partner you went all the way with, they've probably had oral sex fifty times. Today's youth is missing many things as opposed to my youth. Morals and character are two immediate ones, it appears today's youth don't value intimacy as something special. I run into numerous females each day who have had more then five partners by age eighteen. If that's the case, marriage wouldn't stand a chance, would it?


----------



## drifting on

*Deidre* said:


> And the other thing I've noticed with couples who R...is that the BS seems to pull out the affair, whenever there is perhaps a totally irrelevant source of stress for the couple. But, he/she gets to do that, because he/she was the betrayed one. I think the problem with R from these situations, is that it creates this perpetual victim mentality...and the WS needs to keep making up for what pain they caused...indefinitely. Even well into R, it seems like at any time, the BS can pull out the affair and throw it up in the WS face, and the WS has to swallow it. IOW, the marriage dynamic is forever changed.
> 
> I understand this is all so incredibly difficult and complex, but if you are ordering polygraphs and following your spouse around, obsessed with his/her every move, do you ever wonder if you're just totally losing yourself in this? Losing your own joy for life, and identity? When is enough...enough?




This I disagree with, if reconciliation is done in the correct way the betrayed spouse does not use the affair as a card to be superior. It's not a, I win all arguments or discussions by using the affair card. Once you have completed forgiveness in MC the affair is no longer brought up. It is not used against the wayward spouse. It is also not forgotten by the betrayed spouse and can be brought up only when you are discussing events from the time period the affair was happening. This is something the betrayed spouse has difficulty with, can you accept the affair, can you move past the affair, can you be happy with your wayward spouse after forgiveness is completed in MC. 

Reconciliation is hard work, I won't dispute that, my wife made a series of bad choices, I have never once said cheating was a mistake. However, we are all human beings, we are all fallible, and we are all sinners. With that said and after investigating all avenues for me to take, reconciliation was best for me. That doesn't mean it's good for anyone else, all need to take the avenue best for them, nobody else. On this thread I remind Cam to not make a decision for six months, some think I'm pushing reconciliation on him or that others are. Telling him to wait six months to decide is not pushing reconciliation or divorce, it's to make the best decision for the poster after their emotions have calmed down. I could turn around and tell Cam that the recent posts are to divorce and run, but I find that's just adding to the chaos Cam already feels. Cam needs to make his decision with facts of his wife's affair, facts on what he can accept and move forward from while being healthy. To say it's all drama and how can you live this way is wrong in my opinion, it's two peoples lives and marriage that will affect any children involved and the decision should not be from a knee jerk position. 

Cam I hope you wait the six months, you have filed for divorce and it is proceeding until you stop it. Make a decision when your emotions have calmed and you have begun IC. Best of luck to you and God bless.


----------



## sokillme

drifting on said:


> I have a very good friend who's son just graduated from college last year. He is disgusted with the women of his age, as he says some are saving themselves for marriage, but almost all don't view oral sex as sex. He values intimacy, and while you may have one partner you went all the way with, they've probably had oral sex fifty times. Today's youth is missing many things as opposed to my youth. Morals and character are two immediate ones, it appears today's youth don't value intimacy as something special. I run into numerous females each day who have had more then five partners by age eighteen. If that's the case, marriage wouldn't stand a chance, would it?


My issue is the entitlement. But it's not just young people it's everyone.


----------



## sokillme

drifting on said:


> This I disagree with, if reconciliation is done in the correct way the betrayed spouse does not use the affair as a card to be superior. It's not a, I win all arguments or discussions by using the affair card. Once you have completed forgiveness in MC the affair is no longer brought up. It is not used against the wayward spouse. It is also not forgotten by the betrayed spouse and can be brought up only when you are discussing events from the time period the affair was happening. This is something the betrayed spouse has difficulty with, can you accept the affair, can you move past the affair, can you be happy with your wayward spouse after forgiveness is completed in MC.
> 
> Reconciliation is hard work, I won't dispute that, my wife made a series of bad choices, I have never once said cheating was a mistake. However, we are all human beings, we are all fallible, and we are all sinners. With that said and after investigating all avenues for me to take, reconciliation was best for me. That doesn't mean it's good for anyone else, all need to take the avenue best for them, nobody else. On this thread I remind Cam to not make a decision for six months, some think I'm pushing reconciliation on him or that others are. Telling him to wait six months to decide is not pushing reconciliation or divorce, it's to make the best decision for the poster after their emotions have calmed down. I could turn around and tell Cam that the recent posts are to divorce and run, but I find that's just adding to the chaos Cam already feels. Cam needs to make his decision with facts of his wife's affair, facts on what he can accept and move forward from while being healthy. To say it's all drama and how can you live this way is wrong in my opinion, it's two peoples lives and marriage that will affect any children involved and the decision should not be from a knee jerk position.
> 
> Cam I hope you wait the six months, you have filed for divorce and it is proceeding until you stop it. Make a decision when your emotions have calmed and you have begun IC. Best of luck to you and God bless.


Personally I don't think you are pushing for reconciliation. I think you give advice from your perspective. That is the point of this site. You are very clear about how hard it is.


----------



## SunCMars

drifting on said:


> I have a very good friend who's son just graduated from college last year. He is disgusted with the women of his age, as he says some are saving themselves for marriage, but almost all don't view oral sex as sex. He values intimacy, and while you may have one partner you went all the way with, they've probably had oral sex fifty times. Today's youth is missing many things as opposed to my youth. Morals and character are two immediate ones, it appears today's youth don't value intimacy as something special. I run into numerous females each day who have had more then five partners by age eighteen. If that's the case, marriage wouldn't stand a chance, would it?


Amen!

The latest generations will have a "hell" of a good time before marriage. And "for them" this is great. On one hand you admire this cohort and on the other, you realize that as a nation....no, the Western World and the Pacific Rim countries, is doomed.

Marriage's will drop even lower. Family structure and stability will further crumble. But only in the West and the Modern World. Third world countries? Lots of babies. Lots of babies with no roof over their head and no bread or milk. Hunger leads men to do drastic things.

Men often marry for free sex. Why marry when you can get it outside of marriage? Get sex and no headaches, no major responsibilities.

Maybe total freedom will eliminate babies, lower our population from ~6 billion, down to a manageable number. It must happen. Many of our natural resources will run out in a hundred years. The oceans are getting over-fished and polluted.

I see chaos and strife on the horizon. More wars, small, leading to large.


----------



## sokillme

SunCMars said:


> Amen!
> 
> The latest generations will have a "hell" of a good time before marriage. And "for them" this is great. On one hand you admire this cohort and on the other, you realize that as a nation....no, the Western World and the Pacific Rim countries, is doomed.
> 
> Marriage's will drop even lower. Family structure and stability will further crumble. But only in the West and the Modern World. Third world countries? Lots of babies. Lots of babies with no roof over their head and no bread or milk. Hunger leads men to do drastic things.
> 
> Men often marry for free sex. Why marry when you can get it outside of marriage? Get sex and no headaches, no major responsibilities.
> 
> Maybe total freedom will eliminate babies, lower our population from ~6 billion, down to a manageable number. It must happen. Many of our natural resources will run out in a hundred years. The oceans are getting over-fished and polluted.
> 
> I see chaos and strife on the horizon. More wars, small, leading to large.


Virtual sex will be the ultimate free sex. Just wait, the stigma will go away and more men will not get married, this is already happening with porn. Wait until it is no different then the real thing and you can design your partner to fit exactly your attractions. Good luck with that. Strange times.


----------



## jb02157

drifting on said:


> I have a very good friend who's son just graduated from college last year. He is disgusted with the women of his age, as he says some are saving themselves for marriage, but almost all don't view oral sex as sex. He values intimacy, and while you may have one partner you went all the way with, they've probably had oral sex fifty times. Today's youth is missing many things as opposed to my youth. Morals and character are two immediate ones, it appears today's youth don't value intimacy as something special. I run into numerous females each day who have had more then five partners by age eighteen.* If that's the case, marriage wouldn't stand a chance, would it?[*/QUOTE]
> 
> That's certainly one of the causes but I think a more relevant one is how divorce rules financially impact men. One sees it happen to another and young men see this happening to their friends to the point they don't want any part of marriage. They probably figure it's better just to live together and when the break up occurs, they just part company without having to go through a divorce and divide up everything unfairly. When you think about it the two, make each other worse. Less marriage and more living together is causing young adults to have more short term sexual relationships to the point intimacy isn't that special anymore.


----------



## Bibi1031

cam42 said:


> She said NC was broken over the phone and did they not meet in person. I got angry, told her I didn't believe her and demand she does another poly for the questions regarding it. She also told me he's the one who initiated it. Wife has agreed to take another.
> 
> Anyway no she's not in our bedroom, this is something that has been bothering her the most. As much as I would like to have sex with my wife like most married men I believe she'll take it as validation that were fixed now. She has said she has read some about that and believes we should start sleeping in the same bed again.
> 
> Anyone sleep with their spouse when they were in limbo? Of course this will only apply when she passes the poly. I believe she will but hopefully I'm right.


Why the hell would your WW answer her OMs calls if she really has remorse and wants to save the marriage????????

ACTIONS speak louder than words!!!!!!!!

You are wasting your time Cam. Your WS is not even close to the wife your need and want. This marriage is toast. Put a fork in it; it's way past done dude!


----------



## *Deidre*

drifting on said:


> This I disagree with, if reconciliation is done in the correct way the betrayed spouse does not use the affair as a card to be superior. It's not a, I win all arguments or discussions by using the affair card. Once you have completed forgiveness in MC the affair is no longer brought up. It is not used against the wayward spouse. It is also not forgotten by the betrayed spouse and can be brought up only when you are discussing events from the time period the affair was happening. This is something the betrayed spouse has difficulty with, can you accept the affair, can you move past the affair, can you be happy with your wayward spouse after forgiveness is completed in MC.
> 
> Reconciliation is hard work, I won't dispute that, my wife made a series of bad choices, I have never once said cheating was a mistake. However, we are all human beings, we are all fallible, and we are all sinners. With that said and after investigating all avenues for me to take, reconciliation was best for me. That doesn't mean it's good for anyone else, all need to take the avenue best for them, nobody else. On this thread I remind Cam to not make a decision for six months, some think I'm pushing reconciliation on him or that others are. Telling him to wait six months to decide is not pushing reconciliation or divorce, it's to make the best decision for the poster after their emotions have calmed down. I could turn around and tell Cam that the recent posts are to divorce and run, but I find that's just adding to the chaos Cam already feels. Cam needs to make his decision with facts of his wife's affair, facts on what he can accept and move forward from while being healthy. To say it's all drama and how can you live this way is wrong in my opinion, it's two peoples lives and marriage that will affect any children involved and the decision should not be from a knee jerk position.
> 
> Cam I hope you wait the six months, you have filed for divorce and it is proceeding until you stop it. Make a decision when your emotions have calmed and you have begun IC. Best of luck to you and God bless.


I agree, we are all sinners. But, there are consequences to our actions.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Bibi1031 said:


> Why the hell would your WW answer her OMs calls if she really has remorse and wants to save the marriage????????
> 
> ACTIONS speak louder than words!!!!!!!!
> 
> You are wasting your time Cam. Your WS is not even close to the wife your need and want. This marriage is toast. Put a fork in it; it's way past done dude!



If I May respectfully disagree Bibi. From what I read in Cam's posts, she is moving towards remorse. She realizes that she has essentially destroyed the family. That is a HUGE admission. With remorse can come forgiveness, and from forgiveness reconciliation. The big thing I see from the poly was she passed questions that I would have not expected. NC, via phone, I can look past. Had it been in person, no way. 

That being said, it is still early in my estimation for Cam to make a decision on R. He needs to let her lie in the **** and feel the pain. Us Catholics believe in a place referred to as purgatory where one must go to prior to entering heaven. Cam's WW needs to spend a little time in purgatory atoning for her transgressions against him as well as their children.

What his wife did was beyond cruel asking "how do I look". That is something he really needs a solid explanation as to why she would do something so utterly degrading to Cam. That, more than breaking NC, is what I see as a huge hurdle to leap over. 
Actions speak louder than words, and Cam needs to see those actions at work for his benefit and his children. I will tell you from my experience, the children will likely be harder on her than Cam. My DD called my wife things I would never imagine coming out of her mouth. This hit my wife hard between the eyes. I would imaging Cam's oldest probably had similar things to say to her mom.

Will R be easy? Not likely. Will R be possible for Cam? I say yes, provided she feels the pain she caused him, she shows true remorse, if that occurs, I think they can make it. Just a humble opinion of a old E5.


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## *Deidre*

There is no ''solid explanation.'' She's a selfish jerk, and honestly...she still sounds like it. Calling the OM when you're trying to R with your husband? If you want to date, then just cut your spouse free and date. I honestly think that is where some of these WS are, and the explanations you seek are just not going to happen. 

Why is it hard to accept that you married a jerk? Or that the person you married...changed? That happens. If my fiance wants to sleep with other women after we marry, or even now...I won't stand in his way. It is his choice. These WS are adults...I just think that you are hoping that the right words can erase these horrible acts, but it won't.

Idk, again. I get why some of you stay, but I still think you have to do a lot of mental gymnastics in order to R with a cheater. I actually liken cheating to abuse...lying, betrayal, manipulation, etc...that is all required for someone to cheat, and that's abuse. At some point, you have to ask yourself ...why am I not respecting myself enough to walk away from this abuse? 

That's just how I personally see cheating.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

*Deidre* said:


> There is no ''solid explanation.'' She's a selfish jerk, and honestly...she still sounds like it. Calling the OM when you're trying to R with your husband? If you want to date, then just cut your spouse free and date. I honestly think that is where some of these WS are, and the explanations you seek are just not going to happen.
> 
> Why is it hard to accept that you married a jerk? Or that the person you married...changed? That happens. If my fiance wants to sleep with other women after we marry, or even now...I won't stand in his way. It is his choice. These WS are adults...I just think that you are hoping that the right words can erase these horrible acts, but it won't.
> 
> Idk, again. I get why some of you stay, but I still think you have to do a lot of mental gymnastics in order to R with a cheater. I actually liken cheating to abuse...lying, betrayal, manipulation, etc...that is all required for someone to cheat, and that's abuse. At some point, you have to ask yourself ...why am I not respecting myself enough to walk away from this abuse?
> 
> That's just how I personally see cheating.


Deidre

Cheating is wrong and there is something wrong with the person who cheats. The question is can this horrible person she (Cam's wife) became change? It is not only the right words to make things right but the right actions. No words can erase the horrible acts, ever. But time can ease the pain if your wayward spouse is remorseful.one does not know what they will do until they have to deal with infidelity. The journey is not an easy one, but it can be a rewarding one.


----------



## drifting on

*Deidre* said:


> There is no ''solid explanation.'' She's a selfish jerk, and honestly...she still sounds like it. Calling the OM when you're trying to R with your husband? If you want to date, then just cut your spouse free and date. I honestly think that is where some of these WS are, and the explanations you seek are just not going to happen.
> 
> Why is it hard to accept that you married a jerk? Or that the person you married...changed? That happens. If my fiance wants to sleep with other women after we marry, or even now...I won't stand in his way. It is his choice. These WS are adults...I just think that you are hoping that the right words can erase these horrible acts, but it won't.
> 
> Idk, again. I get why some of you stay, but I still think you have to do a lot of mental gymnastics in order to R with a cheater. I actually liken cheating to abuse...lying, betrayal, manipulation, etc...that is all required for someone to cheat, and that's abuse. At some point, you have to ask yourself ...why am I not respecting myself enough to walk away from this abuse?
> 
> That's just how I personally see cheating.




I agree there is no solid explanation, but if you agree people can change, well that's it in nutshell. I have had prior discussions about this and I'll explain it. Deidre lets imagine your fiancée cheated, with all the trimmings that come with infidelity. You will be in shock and pain immediately, then all the other emotions will come in. In a way it's complete chaos, you can easily lose yourself. Now I ask you, did your fiancée change to become a cheater? The answer is yes, it wasn't a behavior he has ever shown before. So what do you do? Let's say he shows remorse, your lost in your pain and devastation. He begins to show actions that he is all in in your relationship, he goes to IC to fix himself, he becomes a better man. This would also be change to be a better person. Do you reconcile or do you call him an abuser? Do you send him packing or do you give a second chance? As you can see it is possible to change, from both good to bad. 

I say this to you resentfully Deidre, as a poster I usually agree with your posts, but here I guess I'm respectfully disagreeing. Cam needs to wait, let the divorce proceed and watch his wife's actions towards the marriage, himself, and the children.


----------



## *Deidre*

drifting on said:


> I agree there is no solid explanation, but if you agree people can change, well that's it in nutshell. I have had prior discussions about this and I'll explain it. Deidre lets imagine your fiancée cheated, with all the trimmings that come with infidelity. You will be in shock and pain immediately, then all the other emotions will come in. In a way it's complete chaos, you can easily lose yourself. Now I ask you, did your fiancée change to become a cheater? The answer is yes, it wasn't a behavior he has ever shown before. So what do you do? Let's say he shows remorse, your lost in your pain and devastation. He begins to show actions that he is all in in your relationship, he goes to IC to fix himself, he becomes a better man. This would also be change to be a better person. Do you reconcile or do you call him an abuser? Do you send him packing or do you give a second chance? As you can see it is possible to change, from both good to bad.
> 
> I say this to you resentfully Deidre, as a poster I usually agree with your posts, but here I guess I'm respectfully disagreeing. Cam needs to wait, let the divorce proceed and watch his wife's actions towards the marriage, himself, and the children.


Yea, that's an interesting example. I guess when I think about cheating in a marriage, it's not something a good person just does out of the blue. It's usually something someone does gradually. If you read threads on here about it, affairs all start out innocently enough, a few chats on facebook with an old friend or a coworker. Then, lunches, then eventually an emotional affair...then a physical affair. It's not something a good person would actively seek out, rather maybe over time, the person just starts off innocently chatting up people from the opposite sex, and then...it leads into an affair. So, in that sense, any one of us can become vulnerable enough to fall into something like that over time. But, what would matter to me, is how the affair was found out. Did I have to find it out, and call my fiance out on it, OR...did he stop seeing the OW, and then wanted to make things right with me? That would matter. So many stories I read and hear about, the affair was found out by the betrayed spouse, and then the WS comes crawling back...begging and pleading to stay in the marriage at all costs. They'll go to counseling, they'll do this or that, and it just seems like only 24 hours prior, they were content to be banging another person besides their spouse. So, maybe that is where I could see R coming into play. If the spouse willingly ended it before I found out, and told me about it...OR...I found out about it and then the WS is merely doing damage control as to not lose his comfortable life with me ...and if we had kids, he doesn't want to lose his kids. I wouldn't R with that scenario because it just seems like the person regrets being caught, not that they cheated.

But........ I hear you. lol :smile2: TY for taking the time to write all of that out, and explain it.


----------



## sokillme

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> What his wife did was beyond cruel asking "how do I look". That is something he really needs a solid explanation as to why she would do something so utterly degrading to Cam.


I want to know what you R guys think she is going to say that would change this? The best she can say is I'm sorry.


----------



## cam42

Was an interesting night yesterday, so she took another poly and did indeed pass the questions, no contact was over the phone, he initiated, it wasn't talking about leaving their spouses. Well we were all watching tv last night and all the kids went upstairs. She has been reading some stuff on SI and said we should atleast start being intimate again no strings attached. So she took that as an initiative to try to get me off, told her to stop and she did. 

I told her to stop using sex to get too me. She said sorry but we haven't done it awhile and if there's no strings attached it is okay, I don't deserve you making love to me yet. Atleast let me get you off. So we both high libido before this, obviously she was one of the reasons I'm here.. So I made the mistake of taking her offer. After she was done she asked if I could come to IC with her and also do MC and I said I'm sorry but I don't know if we're ready for that yet cause I don't know if we're going to reconcile. 

The tears are starting to form. She told me that everyday she looks at herself in the morning in absolute disgust, she said she thinks of me and the kids hurting over her affair multiple hours a day. She has accepted that she will never forgive herself. She is crying now and telling me not to feel bad for her, she hates herself and she hates what she did. That she's a stupid cheating ***** who treated the best thing in her life like garbage. She said she doesn't know why she can't talk about this without crying she then just starts crying into my lap calling herself a selfish ***** a homewrecking life ruining *****. 

Also told me that please know even if you decide to divorce me I will always love you, I will cherish our kids and every memory you gave me, you have made my life amazing beyond words and if you leave me I want you to know you're an wonderful husband, father and man. She gave me a hug and just went upstairs. 

When she left I just started to cry, I'm angry. Why does she say all these things yet she was dating this other man for six months, I want to believe she's sincere I really do. I'm just so afraid of being hurt again. The encounter lasted about an hour but that's the short summary.


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## GusPolinski

Isn't it odd that a WW can spend weeks, months, or even years having sex outside her marriage and "It didnt mean anything!", yet sex with her newly-aware-of-her-affair BH, even when touted as nothing more than a physical release, is supposed to _mean something_ ...? Because NOW sex means something.

Hopefully you didn't mess up. In some states the BS can't divorce citing infidelity if he or she has had sex w/ the WS after discovery of the affair.

Sorry man.

Stay strong.


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## TX-SC

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



sokillme said:


> I want to know what you R guys think she is going to say that would change this? The best she can say is I'm sorry.


Words mean very little. You should know that by now. Her actions should show her remorse for what she did. Words are cheap. Tears are easy for women. Forget all of that crap. Just focus on what she does and how she acts. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## TX-SC

cam42 said:


> Was an interesting night yesterday, so she took another poly and did indeed pass the questions, no contact was over the phone, he initiated, it wasn't talking about leaving their spouses. Well we were all watching tv last night and all the kids went upstairs. She has been reading some stuff on SI and said we should atleast start being intimate again no strings attached. So she took that as an initiative to try to get me off, told her to stop and she did.
> 
> I told her to stop using sex to get too me. She said sorry but we haven't done it awhile and if there's no strings attached it is okay, I don't deserve you making love to me yet. Atleast let me get you off. So we both high libido before this, obviously she was one of the reasons I'm here.. So I made the mistake of taking her offer. After she was done she asked if I could come to IC with her and also do MC and I said I'm sorry but I don't know if we're ready for that yet cause I don't know if we're going to reconcile.
> 
> The tears are starting to form. She told me that everyday she looks at herself in the morning in absolute disgust, she said she thinks of me and the kids hurting over her affair multiple hours a day. She has accepted that she will never forgive herself. She is crying now and telling me not to feel bad for her, she hates herself and she hates what she did. That she's a stupid cheating ***** who treated the best thing in her life like garbage. She said she doesn't know why she can't talk about this without crying she then just starts crying into my lap calling herself a selfish ***** a homewrecking life ruining *****.
> 
> Also told me that please know even if you decide to divorce me I will always love you, I will cherish our kids and every memory you gave me, you have made my life amazing beyond words and if you leave me I want you to know you're an wonderful husband, father and man. She gave me a hug and just went upstairs.
> 
> When she left I just started to cry, I'm angry. Why does she say all these things yet she was dating this other man for six months, I want to believe she's sincere I really do. I'm just so afraid of being hurt again. The encounter lasted about an hour but that's the short summary.


There's nothing inherently wrong with you letting her pleasure you. Just be careful of her using sexual contact as a way to sway you into R. Keep a clear head. Think with your brain, not with your heart otr penis. 

She is now being honest and appears to be showing remorse now. Just don't move eitther way too fast. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

cam42 said:


> Was an interesting night yesterday, so she took another poly and did indeed pass the questions, no contact was over the phone, he initiated, it wasn't talking about leaving their spouses. Well we were all watching tv last night and all the kids went upstairs. She has been reading some stuff on SI and said we should atleast start being intimate again no strings attached. So she took that as an initiative to try to get me off, told her to stop and she did.
> 
> I told her to stop using sex to get too me. She said sorry but we haven't done it awhile and if there's no strings attached it is okay, I don't deserve you making love to me yet. Atleast let me get you off. So we both high libido before this, obviously she was one of the reasons I'm here.. So I made the mistake of taking her offer. After she was done she asked if I could come to IC with her and also do MC and I said I'm sorry but I don't know if we're ready for that yet cause I don't know if we're going to reconcile.
> 
> The tears are starting to form. She told me that everyday she looks at herself in the morning in absolute disgust, she said she thinks of me and the kids hurting over her affair multiple hours a day. She has accepted that she will never forgive herself. She is crying now and telling me not to feel bad for her, she hates herself and she hates what she did. That she's a stupid cheating ***** who treated the best thing in her life like garbage. She said she doesn't know why she can't talk about this without crying she then just starts crying into my lap calling herself a selfish ***** a homewrecking life ruining *****.
> 
> Also told me that please know even if you decide to divorce me I will always love you, I will cherish our kids and every memory you gave me, you have made my life amazing beyond words and if you leave me I want you to know you're an wonderful husband, father and man. She gave me a hug and just went upstairs.
> 
> When she left I just started to cry, I'm angry. Why does she say all these things yet she was dating this other man for six months, I want to believe she's sincere I really do. I'm just so afraid of being hurt again. The encounter lasted about an hour but that's the short summary.


You are only human Cam. I still think there is hope for you guys. She is showing signs of remorse, but please do not let her manipulate you with sex. As for your question "why does she say all these things yet she was dating this other man for six months". Cam, that is a question you need to ask her. She needs to answer HONESTLY. Ask her how she would feel if the situation was reversed. What would she do. What would she expect? Remember women are all about feelings. Keep pounding the "how would you feel?" Every chance you get. A trick I learned from my MC.


----------



## GusPolinski

For as long as she's trying to manipulate him _in any way_ (and she clearly is), there can be no remorse.

Remorse is a very magnanimous sense of deep regret that is completely untethered to any goal, outcome, or interest held by the person feeling it.

And whatever this is, it ain't that.


----------



## farsidejunky

You should state this very simply to her, Cam:

"You were willing to do this to our family for selfish, cheap thrills. Until you can answer why you chose to do this, why you thought it was okay to date another man while married to me and then repeatedly lie about it, you will not be a safe partner with which to reconcile."


----------



## straightshooter

cam42 said:


> Was an interesting night yesterday, so she took another poly and did indeed pass the questions, no contact was over the phone, he initiated, it wasn't talking about leaving their spouses. Well we were all watching tv last night and all the kids went upstairs. She has been reading some stuff on SI and said we should atleast start being intimate again no strings attached. So she took that as an initiative to try to get me off, told her to stop and she did.
> 
> I told her to stop using sex to get too me. She said sorry but we haven't done it awhile and if there's no strings attached it is okay, I don't deserve you making love to me yet. Atleast let me get you off. So we both high libido before this, obviously she was one of the reasons I'm here.. So I made the mistake of taking her offer. After she was done she asked if I could come to IC with her and also do MC and I said I'm sorry but I don't know if we're ready for that yet cause I don't know if we're going to reconcile.
> 
> The tears are starting to form. She told me that everyday she looks at herself in the morning in absolute disgust, she said she thinks of me and the kids hurting over her affair multiple hours a day. She has accepted that she will never forgive herself. She is crying now and telling me not to feel bad for her, she hates herself and she hates what she did. That she's a stupid cheating ***** who treated the best thing in her life like garbage. She said she doesn't know why she can't talk about this without crying she then just starts crying into my lap calling herself a selfish ***** a homewrecking life ruining *****.
> 
> Also told me that please know even if you decide to divorce me I will always love you, I will cherish our kids and every memory you gave me, you have made my life amazing beyond words and if you leave me I want you to know you're an wonderful husband, father and man. She gave me a hug and just went upstairs.
> 
> When she left I just started to cry, I'm angry. Why does she say all these things yet she was dating this other man for six months, I want to believe she's sincere I really do. I'm just so afraid of being hurt again. The encounter lasted about an hour but that's the short summary.


Cam,

OK, so lets start with this and get it out of the way. You need to first call the OM wife and tell her that her POS husband was the one who initiated the contact and that you have verified it with another polygraph test. I hope you have not forgetton where you would be if she had not helped you. That is mission number one.

So the break in NC did not involve talking about leaving their spouses. Then why in hell did she not hang up on h8im and tell you he contacted her. And what was the conversation about. Probably how much they would miss each other and the special thing they had. Or were they discussing President Trumps cabinet appointments. That she had this conversation at all and did not tell you is the issue here.

Can your last statement or question above is your real dilema here. She was not saying these things or feeling them about herself for one simple reason. She did not think she was going to get caught and the six months would still be going on if you did not get real lucky and get told by a stranger that she saw them in public. And until you digest that over some more time, you are not going to have any real answers for yourself.

My guess is she is reading on SI about HB ( hysterical bonding). Again as you said to use sex to lull your senses. Some BH want that to "reclaim" their wives. Others like yourself do not immediately go there. It is only temporary anyway. But your response was good.

In the state you are in, I really do not think you need to go crujinsing into some MC office and get told the affair is not the problem, and then move on to what was wrong in your marriage, making you the problem. And I do not think this is really that comlplicated. You said it. She, like many women, and men for that matter, got bored with married life, the temptation was there, she bit the forbidden apple. There does not necessarily have to be any deep sinister reason other than she wanted to, and it was fun , and she never thought she would get caught. So many on here or SI have to overthink the matter. MC may be fine, but like you said, you have not made any decisions yet.

If you send her to IC, I would insist on her signing the document allowing her therapist to discuss with you their sessions. So many times, BH has no clue what WW is telling IC and then gets surprised when IC tells wife things that make it worse.

Cam, just my opinion, your biggest obstacle is NOT WHAT YOUR WIFE DID IN HAVE SEX WITH OM. The fact that you were able to even let her touch you without disgust shows that. Her actions, lies, and denials AFTER you caught her could be the deathly this marriage.

And I disagree with tghe remorse comments. She is totally devastated that she may have totally blown up her life. That is totally understandable, but that in itself is not remorse, which is actions over time, not crying and a pity party for herself. She should be crying for you, not for herself. 

On a positive note, you now know that the affair is not still going on underground. What you still do not know is who at work she will be interacting with or other girlfriends who are toxic to your marriage. There are still more questions out there, and you need to ask them before making any final decisions. 

And lastly, I hope you keep tabs on the stats of OM marriage. Your wife is hurting, and vulnerable because she is scared, and if the two of them find themselves in the same position, that is how NC breaks happen again.


----------



## *Deidre*

''I will always love you.''

You know, she sounds like a narcissist. They say things like that, like right after they betray their partners.  She cheats on you for six months, and then says ''I will always love you.'' Always? 

Your wife, she knows how to play men. Be careful. 

Love doesn't look like this. That's all I know. You have to make up your own mind, but don't settle. Because you will regret it.  Good luck on this.


----------



## Malaise

*Deidre* said:


> ''I will always love you.''
> 
> You know, she sounds like a narcissist. They say things like that, like right after they betray their partners.  *She cheats on you for six months, and then says ''I will always love you.'' Always?
> *
> Your wife, she knows how to play men. Be careful.
> 
> Love doesn't look like this. That's all I know. You have to make up your own mind, but don't settle. Because you will regret it.  Good luck on this.


Except, of course, for that 6 months she was crazy about Cam. Other than that, sure.


----------



## sokillme

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



TX-SC said:


> Words mean very little. You should know that by now. Her actions should show her remorse for what she did. Words are cheap. Tears are easy for women. Forget all of that crap. Just focus on what she does and how she acts.
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


Yeah that was kinda my point.


----------



## TX-SC

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



sokillme said:


> Yeah that was kinda my point.


Exactly. So there's not anything specifically she can say. But her actions speak volumes. She appears remorseful, but Cam is the only one living it. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


----------



## sokillme

cam42 said:


> When she left I just started to cry, I'm angry. Why does she say all these things yet she was dating this other man for six months, I want to believe she's sincere I really do. I'm just so afraid of being hurt again. The encounter lasted about an hour but that's the short summary.


Because she is manipulate you the sex didn't work so now she tries to use lines. From afar it's really clear as day. I will tell you this too, once she realizes that it won't work she may start to fight you tooth and nail for everything. You better get your agreement now while she is still in make up mode. 

I wouldn't trust your wife as far as I could throw her.


----------



## sokillme

GusPolinski said:


> For as long as she's trying to manipulate him _in any way_ (and she clearly is), there can be no remorse.
> 
> Remorse is a very magnanimous sense of deep regret that is completely untethered to any goal, outcome, or interest held by the person feeling it.
> 
> And whatever this is, it ain't that.


Agreed her MO is manipulation.


----------



## Archangel2

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> ... As for your question "why does she say all these things yet she was dating this other man for six months". Cam, that is a question you need to ask her. She needs to answer HONESTLY. Ask her how she would feel if the situation was reversed. What would she do. What would she expect? Remember women are all about feelings. Keep pounding the "how would you feel?" Every chance you get. A trick I learned from my MC.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Also, I think you should bring up her "How do I look" episode and how you feel about that now.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Cam,

First everything she says must likely is true, but that one percent is what is holding you bank and that is very normal and healthy. Intimacy is so much more then intercourse to you and that a woman finds amazing and difficult to believe any man can feel. If I understand correctly you are still using the 180 to some degree. If she is reading SI and reading wome of the Just Found Out, she by now knows and understands the 180.

At this point I think it would be well to write her a short note along the lines: "I know how hard this is for you to live in uncertainity as I myself am. I hear what you said and they are important to me to hear but when I try to respond a fear of what happened happenimg again freezes me. Know I am not dating or socializing and will not until I tell you I will. I say ii will not date or socialize because first I will never cause you the pain of what has happened. As hard as is it for you I need space to heal and think. As to seeing your IC. If your IC feels it is necessary to speak one on one with me to understand the full scope of my feelings and the history of out marriages I will try to agree. If we reach the MC stage it will be helpful. 

One other thing Cam, I resize you are reading threads from time to time while coming to grips with your emotions and deciding your future without posting. Again normal and healthy. I to at moments of great emotions need quiet while I read and just mediated. Some boards the profile page will show join date and last log in. I've seen posters regularly just read sometimes daily, sometimes monthly between postings. It is a comfort to me as at times I worry a poster has just given up and decided to live a life of quiet dispair while waiting for what ever life dishes out till their life runs it course. This thread has me LoveShack.org Community Forums May I suggest if you see a post that resonate on your thread or another "like" it and continue to read.


----------



## JohnA

Sorry my IPad edit function is difficult to use. I wanted to close by saying by liking a post it let's us know what you are thinking so when you do post we have some insight into your state of mind. 

Be Well, there is no real good answer what ever you decide, just be proud of your actions along the way. I recall two years agona poster wife had a brief affair and he wanted to reconcile. But to teach her a lesson and for her to feel what he felt he made her pick out two escorts, had her contact and pay them and made her watch watch him her sex with them. 

My resonse "congratulations you taught a lesson, to YOUR DAUGHTER. it got 37 likes. So Cam, stay or divorce fine, just make sure at the end you are proud of your actions. Proud not nice, 

Sorry this site does show last log in, still a like would help us
Be well


----------



## Mr Blunt

Cam, your wife is saying a lot of the right things but more importantly she has passed two pollys and that is very positive.* It seems that you really want to R* but cannot trust her enough and do not want to get hurt again.

There is no way that you are going to trust her enough in just a few months. As for not getting hurt again, no matter what you do in either R or D you will have to risk some hurt if you are going to have any deep relationships with people.

Your wife is weak, lowered her integrity, and betrayed her children and you because of her selfishness and her free will decision to act on her lower nature. However, your wife, according to your words “…was the kindest, sweetest, loyal person who I thought adored me and I did her” for 20 years. She not with you because the OM dumped her and does not love the OM.


Since you seem to want to R, I would encourage you to R with her if she passes a few more tests. The tests that I suggested in an earlier post were for you give her the opportunity to live up to her words of stating that she will do anything for you. Here are two actions that should give you a lot more trust in her words:

*1	She gives you legal documents so that you do not EVER have to lose 50% of your time with your children

2	She signs legal documents so that she cannot take you to the cleaners financially*.

The above actions helped me believe that my wife was dead serious about her words and gave me the protection that I needed for myself.

*If your wife does the above then that is a very strong indication that she is putting you first in her life and dedicated to R*. My wife did the above and I concluded that she is worth an R and if your wife does the same I would R if I were you. Why? Because you have a long history with your wife that is mostly good, and she will have shown you by her actions that she still has some good in her. Finally, if you are successful in your R your children will very likely benefit.

You are very early in your crises so do not expect to have everything worked out in a year or two. However, *you can be a LOT better in time*.


----------



## Satya

The "no strings attached" sex turned into an emotional ordeal for both of you. I can't say that I'm surprised. 

Be careful, Cam. A couple with a history of emotional attachment can't simply turn off. I don't care what she said to you. The strings were already firmly in place. Tangled to all hell, but there.


----------



## MovingFrwrd

JohnA said:


> Hi Cam,
> 
> First everything she says must likely is true, but that one percent is what is holding you bank and that is very normal and healthy. Intimacy is so much more then intercourse to you and that a woman finds amazing and difficult to believe any man can feel. If I understand correctly you are still using the 180 to some degree. If she is reading SI and reading wome of the Just Found Out, she by now knows and understands the 180.
> 
> At this point I think it would be well to write her a short note along the lines: "I know how hard this is for you to live in uncertainity as I myself am. I hear what you said and they are important to me to hear but when I try to respond a fear of what happened happenimg again freezes me. Know I am not dating or socializing and will not until I tell you I will. I say ii will not date or socialize because first I will never cause you the pain of what has happened. As hard as is it for you I need space to heal and think. As to seeing your IC. If your IC feels it is necessary to speak one on one with me to understand the full scope of my feelings and the history of out marriages I will try to agree. If we reach the MC stage it will be helpful.
> 
> One other thing Cam, I resize you are reading threads from time to time while coming to grips with your emotions and deciding your future without posting. Again normal and healthy. I to at moments of great emotions need quiet while I read and just mediated. Some boards the profile page will show join date and last log in. I've seen posters regularly just read sometimes daily, sometimes monthly between postings. It is a comfort to me as at times I worry a poster has just given up and decided to live a life of quiet dispair while waiting for what ever life dishes out till their life runs it course. This thread has me LoveShack.org Community Forums May I suggest if you see a post that resonate on your thread or another "like" it and continue to read.


Cam - @JohnA gives some solid advice here, feel free to read it a few times and find what truth you can for yourself. I second the thought of taking time to sort through your emotions as you continue on your journey. It may be necessary to take a break from posting from time to time because I understand that it can cause triggers, and impede healing. Totally normal and understood. Many members here have needed to take time for themselves.




JohnA said:


> Sorry my IPad edit function is difficult to use. I wanted to close by saying by liking a post it let's us know what you are thinking so when you do post we have some insight into your state of mind.
> 
> Be Well, there is no real good answer what ever you decide, just be proud of your actions along the way. I recall two years agona poster wife had a brief affair and he wanted to reconcile. But to teach her a lesson and for her to feel what he felt he made her pick out two escorts, had her contact and pay them and made her watch watch him her sex with them.
> 
> My resonse "congratulations you taught a lesson, to YOUR DAUGHTER. it got 37 likes. *So Cam, stay or divorce fine, just make sure at the end you are proud of your actions.* Proud not nice,
> 
> Sorry this site does show last log in, still a like would help us
> Be well


Quote for truth. I also understand what JohnA is getting at in regards to your state of mind. We would like to think we are offering advice for your desired end goal, be that D or R. If you need to vent, feel free to say so, and just vent away. Interaction is key for not only you to sort through your feelings, but it also helps us that want to help you.

I wouldn't want to be banging the drum for R if you want to D and vice versa. 

Continued best of luck as you work your way through this.


----------



## sokillme

JohnA said:


> Hi Cam,
> 
> First everything she says must likely is true


I think everyone believes what she says is true. The question is what is the motivation for saying it. You have to be smarter then just trusting what says is motivated for your benefit. Her actions have shown for a substantial time they have not been. I would also be very weary of being vulnerable to her, she has shown she will exploit that. 

Detach, detach, detach.


----------



## manwithnoname

sokillme said:


> I think everyone believes what she says is true. The question is what is the motivation for saying it. You have to be smarter then just trusting what says is motivated for your benefit. Her actions have shown for a substantial time they have not been. *I would also be very weary of being vulnerable to her, she has shown she will exploit that.
> *
> Detach, detach, detach.



I believe this is key.


----------



## straightshooter

sokillme;17447874[B said:


> ]I think everyone believes what she says is true.[/B] The question is what is the motivation for saying it. You have to be smarter then just trusting what says is motivated for your benefit. Her actions have shown for a substantial time they have not been. I would also be very weary of being vulnerable to her, she has shown she will exploit that.
> 
> Detach, detach, detach.



Sorry. I am going to question this one. She has told the truth to specific question with yes or no answers. I have asked on every post if his wife has volunteered ANY information on which of her co workers knew, which of her other girlfriends knew, which of the contributed to this in any way, and who she was constantly giggling and texting with all the time. She has also not volunteered who was going to be her alibi if Cam happened to get suspicious the night she got all dolled up and asked him how she looked.

Passing the polygraphs is not the end gamer her nor is taking them. Did she have any choice is she wants to save her ass???? he has already filed. if she said no, what do you think Cam would do.????

Not recommending reconciliation or divorce, but getting the ENTIRE STORY straight before sorting through it.

Cam, she may have told you some of this. if not, why you would not want to know and neglect that would amaze me if you choose that. If you choose to not IMMEDIATELY go into R mode and let this play out some more, you can count on toxic friends if there are those that you do not know about to start to fill her head with " its time for Cam to get over it"..

Remember, all you have to do is look at the magazine covers or television shows that women are inundated with, and affairs are just something fun and never portrayed as anything but an exciting break from the boredom of married monogamy. Exactly what your wife did. Those loving the juicy details are not going to be good for your marriage if you choose to keep it and weeding them out should not be ignored. And your wife should have already done that and be able to prove it to you without you asking. The fact that she is so uncomfortable with being at work is indicative that either she yearns for OM while in the office OR she is embarrassed as hell because it was no secret. And my guess is that her office mates were knowing and also know she got papers for divorce.


----------



## sokillme

Satya said:


> A couple with a history of emotional attachment can't simply turn off.


Unless one cheats. There in lies the rub. One of the people in this relationship could do just that. That is the danger.


----------



## sokillme

straightshooter said:


> Sorry. I am going to question this one. She has told the truth to specific question with yes or no answers. I have asked on every post if his wife has volunteered ANY information on which of her co workers knew, which of her other girlfriends knew, which of the contributed to this in any way, and who she was constantly giggling and texting with all the time. She has also not volunteered who was going to be her alibi if Cam happened to get suspicious the night she got all dolled up and asked him how she looked.
> 
> Passing the polygraphs is not the end gamer her nor is taking them. Did she have any choice is she wants to save her ass???? he has already filed. if she said no, what do you think Cam would do.????
> 
> Not recommending reconciliation or divorce, but getting the ENTIRE STORY straight before sorting through it.
> 
> Cam, she may have told you some of this. if not, why you would not want to know and neglect that would amaze me if you choose that. If you choose to not IMMEDIATELY go into R mode and let this play out some more, you can count on toxic friends if there are those that you do not know about to start to fill her head with " its time for Cam to get over it"..
> 
> Remember, all you have to do is look at the magazine covers or television shows that women are inundated with, and affairs are just something fun and never portrayed as anything but an exciting break from the boredom of married monogamy. Exactly what your wife did. Those loving the juicy details are not going to be good for your marriage if you choose to keep it and weeding them out should not be ignored. And your wife should have already done that and be able to prove it to you without you asking. The fact that she is so uncomfortable with being at work is indicative that either she yearns for OM while in the office OR she is embarrassed as hell because it was no secret. And my guess is that her office mates were knowing and also know she got papers for divorce.


She told the truth when she specifically described what she did and how she sees herself. This is pretty basic stuff though. Don't really see the value in a WS saying. I did a really awful thing and I hate myself. Like if she didn't say that you don't even have a starting point. Acknowledging that you have done a great evil to your BS and family is basically just the beginning. That was my point. 

The real question is why is she saying this. If it is just to save her skin and get the BS to R so you can keep your safety that doesn't really mean much. Doesn't take away the risk. It's like the person who admits to a small lie to obscure the big one. She is sorry now? Of COURSE she is sorry now, look at how her life ended up. Only a true crazy person would not be.


----------



## Graywolf2

cam42 said:


> Why does she say all these things yet she was dating this other man for six months,* I want to believe she's sincere *I really do. I'm just so afraid of being hurt again.


*I assure you that she IS sincere. 

*


cam42 said:


> She told me that everyday she looks at herself in the morning in absolute disgust, she said she thinks of me and the kids hurting over her affair multiple hours a day. She has accepted that she will never forgive herself. She is crying now and telling me not to feel bad for her, she hates herself and she hates what she did. That she's a stupid cheating ***** who treated the best thing in her life like garbage. She said she doesn't know why she can't talk about this without crying she then just starts crying into my lap calling herself a selfish ***** a homewrecking life ruining *****.


*You could hook her up to a poly again and all of the above would be certified as true.
*



Graywolf2 said:


> I'm sure she is and it’s not an act. Think of her as a bank robber that was having the time of her life robbing banks. It was exciting until she was caught. Now she is in front of the judge (you) and could face 20 years in jail. How do you think anyone would act in this situation? Now she sincerely regrets ever robbing banks and will do anything not to go to jail. If she wasn’t caught she would still be robbing banks.


What would your emotions, words and thoughts be if you might have to leave your family for 20 years because you did something stupid and go to jail? You would wish by all that’s holy that the thought of robbing bank never occurred to you. You would hate yourself.

But again if never caught you would still be having the time of your life robbing banks.



cam42 said:


> Why does she say all these things yet she was dating this other man for six months?


ANSWER: Because she thought she was never going to be caught. She could have you for family and OM for fun. It was supposed to be free and now she can't stand to pay the cost. The excitement and money from the banks was in no way worth 20 years in jail. Now she *sincerely* hates herself and feels like a fool but it's all because she was caught.


----------



## Robbie1234

Cam your wife and her friends and her boyfriend were all having a good laugh at you and when you take her back they will still be laughing at you.How more could she degrade you than asking how she looked before ****ing him.Which of her friends would have lied for her that night.She cries and you feel awful.She wasn't feeling awful when she was humiliating you.


----------



## SunCMars

drifting on said:


> I agree there is no solid explanation, but if you agree people can change, well that's it in nutshell. I have had prior discussions about this and I'll explain it. Deidre lets imagine your fiancée cheated, with all the trimmings that come with infidelity. You will be in shock and pain immediately, then all the other emotions will come in. In a way it's complete chaos, you can easily lose yourself. Now I ask you, did your fiancée change to become a cheater? The answer is yes, it wasn't a behavior he has ever shown before. So what do you do? Let's say he shows remorse, your lost in your pain and devastation. He begins to show actions that he is all in in your relationship, he goes to IC to fix himself, he becomes a better man. This would also be change to be a better person. Do you reconcile or do you call him an abuser? Do you send him packing or do you give a second chance? As you can see it is possible to change, from both good to bad.
> 
> I say this to you resentfully Deidre, as a poster I usually agree with your posts, but here I guess I'm respectfully disagreeing. *Cam needs to wait, l*et the divorce proceed and watch his wife's actions towards the marriage, himself, and the children.


It is very easy for a broken man to wait. What else can he do?

He waits because he cannot stand. His legs have been cut off at the knee.

His foundation has been washed away by her betrayal. by her lust. Her marital holy water has been spilled.

She lost her water. The D-Day symbolic baby came and it was not Cam's

This betrayal can never be termed "Water under the Bridge" and forgotten.

This lost water never left the yard. Never made it to the nearby stream and the following river, flowing under that bridge. 

It found a fissure in the soil and the rock beneath the basement floor.

That water ran straight down for miles, before reaching the Earth's Mantle and turning into steam.

The divorce should run it's course. You cannot reconstruct another's character. The WW's character. 

You cannot Reconcile and meld two disparate things, a Faithful Man and a Broken Vessel, her shared womb is soiled forever..... to Cameron.


----------



## drifting on

Cam

I remember being at this point in infidelity myself, your wife uses words and it leaves you filled with questions and sadness. You are weary because of the betrayal she exacted on you. I think in a way, you are like I was, and that's the asking of why. Why have an affair? Why did you do this? Why would you harm our marriage? Why would you jeopardize our children? Reality is this Cam, there is no answer that you can accept for this to happen. I was the same way, and at three years out, I can tell you there is still no good answer. 

Your wife is going to be emotional (crying) for some time to come, but you can tell her to try to stop. Tell her the tears are angering you, ask her if she cried each time she had sex with OM. Ask her if she cried before each date with OM. If she says no, then tell her not to cry when talking to you. If she was strong enough to hide her emotions from you during the affair she can hide them during your talks. Believe it or not but this will hit her hard. One thing you can always ask is how can I trust any words you say? 

It's no doubt that your wife feels terribly bad for her choices Cam, and that's not on you, it's in her. You should not be feeling bad because she sulks or cries. You have cried yourself, do you think she feels bad or guilty for making you cry? Infidelity sucks, plain and simple, for BOTH sides Cam, so if you feel bad for her crying, remember why she is crying.

Do I think this is remorse? Quite honestly I don't know Cam. What I do see is that the reality of her decisions has hit her very hard. This is usually the time that remorse begins to set in and she feels the pain of those she crushed. However I still see some selfish behavior from your post, which is a good indicator that remorse hasn't set in. In my opinion remorse is very close, and this could be a very telling time for you. Either remorse sets in or as @sokillme says, she fights you tooth and nail. Watch her actions closely right now.


----------



## sokillme

Having sex with her is not detaching.


----------



## Bibi1031

GusPolinski said:


> For as long as she's trying to manipulate him _in any way_ (and she clearly is), there can be no remorse.
> 
> Remorse is a very magnanimous sense of deep regret that is completely untethered to any goal, outcome, or interest held by the person feeling it.
> 
> And whatever this is, it ain't that.


QFT

I'm sorry, but I don't see any remorse at all. She just wants what she so selfishly threw away due to her selfish acts. If the OM wouldn't of left her, she would still be jumping his bones, have no doubt about that. You will forever doubt her sincerity Cam because she got dumped. Remember when you found out about the affair. She was singing a very different tune. She told you she loved OM, not that it was just sex. She had feelings for the dude. That is why she answered the phone call. She misses him because she still loves HIM. I went through the same thing. I believed my X until he broke the NC rule and his true colors emerged. Your WW is no different. 

Can you live with that? I couldn't so I said bye bye. It was for the best. His so called second chance at love only lasted 6 months, but he found several others to console himself with. His love for me died and that is why they can fall in love with others. People change Cam, and we can't force them to change how they feel. As much as it hurts to know that your WS has feelings for another, we all deserve to love and be loved. Set her free and find your love and happiness with another. It is the humane thing to do. Your children will understand. Nobody deserves to be forced into a marriage where there is a third party in the mix with love feelings for that third party.

She still loves HIM!


----------



## curious234

Some posters are really out of character and nasty. They come with all sort of possibilities and imaginary scenarios to counter act her actions. Cheating is bad, however cannot a person change and be forgiven even under circumstances where they are facing some consequences. Having sex is more of an emotional thing to the woman. Like in Sophie's story the husband did not have any confusion about what he wanted after starting to be intimate. So her asking for intimacy without any strings attached, cam should be able to handle. Most of the Rs among the posters and else where have happened under much worse circumstances


----------



## jsmart

Had you done usual nice guy act that the majority of BHs who come here do, you would probably be dealing with a wife who would have taken the affair further underground. But thanks to your taking the firm actions that you were advise to take, you've completely turned your situation around

It's obvious that you hope to R, which in your case, seems possible. There is no shame in wanting to keep your family intact when you've made the moves that you have and have gotten the results that you're getting.

I'm very happy that things a turning around. Yes, we wish she never did this in the 1st place but it did happen. At least you will possibly R with a wife that you know has been defogged and has taken 2 poly's to prove herself to you including most importantly that prior to this she did not cheat on you. 

Actually I'm not understanding the chorus for further punishment in your case. If you were to take small steps toward R now, this would NOT be a case of weak rug sweeping.


----------



## SunCMars

curious234 said:


> Some posters are really out of character and nasty. They come with all sort of possibilities and imaginary scenarios to counter act her actions. Cheating is bad, however cannot a person change and be forgiven even under circumstances where they are facing some consequences. Having sex is more of an emotional thing to the woman. Like in Sophie's story the husband did not have any confusion about what he wanted after starting to be intimate. So her asking for intimacy without any strings attached, cam should be able to handle. Most of the Rs among the posters and else where have happened under much worse circumstances


She dated this man for six months.

They went out in public, holding hands. She flaunted her infidelity. 

One night she got all dolled up, hairdo, makeup, nice clothes. She asked Cam how she looked.

He said she looked great. That night she went on a date with OM. And OM stuck it in her.

Nice lady? Not...


----------



## sokillme

jsmart said:


> Had you done usual nice guy act that the majority of BHs who come here do, you would probably be dealing with a wife who would have taken the affair further underground. But thanks to your taking the firm actions that you were advise to take, you've completely turned your situation around
> 
> It's obvious that you hope to R, which in your case, seems possible. There is no shame in wanting to keep your family intact when you've made the moves that you have and have gotten the results that you're getting.
> 
> I'm very happy that things a turning around. Yes, we wish she never did this in the 1st place but it did happen. At least you will possibly R with a wife that you know has been defogged and has taken 2 poly's to prove herself to you including most importantly that prior to this she did not cheat on you.
> 
> Actually I'm not understanding the chorus for further punishment in your case. If you were to take small steps toward R now, this would NOT be a case of weak rug sweeping.


It's not punishment it's about being realistic about what is truly going on. People don't change on a dime. The woman she was 6 months ago while she was lying her ass of is the same women today. It takes hard work to change, you are not going to see that in a month. Personally she seems pretty shady to me, she uses sex and tears to get what she wants. Every time he has told her he need less interactions she pushes to get more. She continually pushes his boundaries. 

Not a good sign. Look if all it took is some crying and saying what a jerk she is then everyone would R. We are talking about real life here.


----------



## drifting on

Cam

Genuinely how are you doing? Are you eating, taking care of yourself? How is IC going? You don't need to explain in depth on this, just a general answer is sufficient. I just want to know that you are caring for yourself as well. 

Also has your wife said what coworkers and/or friends knew of the affair, if any? The reason I ask is that these people are considered toxic to your marriage. You may answer in a pm if you don't wish to post this information. God bless.


----------



## cam42

The whole asking me how she looked before she went to go see the OM. We talked about that when I went to that IC with her. Basically she said in her words "in her ****ed up and selfish mind I somehow thought that was perfectly okay to ask because you weren't aware of my betrayal, the last thing I was thinking about was your feelings and saying sorry is a complete understatement. But I'm absolutely sorry" 

She came to me today and told me she wanted to ask me something, I said ok. She thinks I have been suffering in silence and says she wants to do whatever she can to help me because I haven't been saying much. She's telling me maybe professional help will be good? She said she's worried about me because I have been losing weight from the stress. I told her I'm fine and just to not worry about it. 

Throughout this I haven't really had an appetite, it's starting to come back now. My wife told me she thinks we should follow a timeline of how long it takes for us to reconcile. She told me that recovering from infidelity could take up to five years, but that she would work for 100 if she had too. I kinda laughed at that. 

She just said she's worried about me and wants me to go to the doctor. That even if I divorce her she is still going to care about my health and well being. I guess that's good to hear. 

I told her I need space from her so no more attempted initiation of sex or anything, no more hugging. She said she will stop and admits she doesnt know whar should be doing. She's now aware of the term wayward spouse. Told me she's read threads about betrayed spouses and feels horrible for how much she's hurt me. 

She said she will always want to renconcile no matter what, she loves me and the kids more than anything else in the world. She just wants all of us to be happy someday. 

Still so confused ugh.


----------



## JohnA

It is a start and not a bad one. Ask her to keep that promise. She is right about help. Now would be a good time to discuss what to look for to pre-qualify an IC. @drifting on has mentioned his has helped him a great deal. Perhaps he might share more info in a PM. Or ask his IC on the thoughts of ore-qualifying an IC.


----------



## sokillme

cam42 said:


> The whole asking me how she looked before she went to go see the OM. We talked about that when I went to that IC with her. Basically she said in her words "in her ****ed up and selfish mind I somehow thought that was perfectly okay to ask because you weren't aware of my betrayal, the last thing I was thinking about was your feelings and saying sorry is a complete understatement. But I'm absolutely sorry"
> 
> She came to me today and told me she wanted to ask me something, I said ok. She thinks I have been suffering in silence and says she wants to do whatever she can to help me because I haven't been saying much. She's telling me maybe professional help will be good? She said she's worried about me because I have been losing weight from the stress. I told her I'm fine and just to not worry about it.
> 
> Throughout this I haven't really had an appetite, it's starting to come back now. My wife told me she thinks we should follow a timeline of how long it takes for us to reconcile. She told me that recovering from infidelity could take up to five years, but that she would work for 100 if she had too. I kinda laughed at that.
> 
> She just said she's worried about me and wants me to go to the doctor. That even if I divorce her she is still going to care about my health and well being. I guess that's good to hear.
> 
> I told her I need space from her so no more attempted initiation of sex or anything, no more hugging. She said she will stop and admits she doesnt know whar should be doing. She's now aware of the term wayward spouse. Told me she's read threads about betrayed spouses and feels horrible for how much she's hurt me.
> 
> She said she will always want to renconcile no matter what, she loves me and the kids more than anything else in the world. She just wants all of us to be happy someday.
> 
> Still so confused ugh.


Still don't know about the friends though. You will have to get to that. So lets say that she follows through. What do you want. Do you want to be married to someone like her? Here is the thing, yes it will probably take 5 years or longer, and the affair will be a permanent part of your relationship. I posted some threads from people who R'ed on this one, even the best R have a big old affair invading every part of the marriage.

If you move on you get a start fresh. There will come a point where she tires of going 100%. At the end of the day she will just be a typical wife who asked you how she looked before she went out with he boyfriend. The drama will die down and you will be stuck eating a **** sandwich, with a disloyal person. 

Do you really want that life? I say get the best deal you can from her D and start a new life. 

There are better women out there then her. Ones who are worth it. LOYAL ones who have character enough to not go back on their word because they are bored. Frankly that is not too much to ask. 

Marriage is hard enough without trying to pretend the person you are with didn't stab you in the eye. You divorce her get in shape and you will be back to your old self again in about a year. You date again and your self esteem will heal. You fall in love again and all the pain of what she did to you will lose it sting because it won't be attached to feelings of love, because you will love someone else. 

Read any thread where they guy D and D quickly and they always, ALWAYS end up better off then the ones who hold on in misery. 

You can marry someone new who is a better person. Oh and you can tell her to go find someone else to take care of, preferably someone she didn't stab in the back for ****s and giggles. 

The thing that strikes me the most about your wife is how she has tried to basically strong arm your recovery from the very moment she got dumped by her boyfriend. Sorry man but she kinda sucks. You can do better.


----------



## Malaise

cam42 said:


> The whole asking me how she looked before she went to go see the OM. We talked about that when I went to that IC with her. *Basically she said in her words "in her ****ed up and selfish mind I somehow thought that was perfectly okay to ask because you weren't aware of my betrayal, the last thing I was thinking about was your feelings and saying sorry is a complete understatement. But I'm absolutely sorry"
> 
> *She came to me today and told me she wanted to ask me something, I said ok. She thinks I have been suffering in silence and says she wants to do whatever she can to help me because I haven't been saying much. She's telling me maybe professional help will be good? She said she's worried about me because I have been losing weight from the stress. I told her I'm fine and just to not worry about it.
> 
> Throughout this I haven't really had an appetite, it's starting to come back now. My wife told me she thinks we should follow a timeline of how long it takes for us to reconcile. She told me that recovering from infidelity could take up to five years, but that she would work for 100 if she had too. I kinda laughed at that.
> 
> She just said she's worried about me and wants me to go to the doctor. That even if I divorce her she is still going to care about my health and well being. I guess that's good to hear.
> 
> I told her I need space from her so no more attempted initiation of sex or anything, no more hugging. She said she will stop and admits she doesnt know whar should be doing. She's now aware of the term wayward spouse. Told me she's read threads about betrayed spouses and feels horrible for how much she's hurt me.
> 
> She said she will always want to renconcile no matter what, she loves me and the kids more than anything else in the world. She just wants all of us to be happy someday.
> 
> Still so confused ugh.


A lot this is what SHE wants, not what YOU need.

And the bolded above: You weren't aware of the betrayal and she had the power then. Aside from the complete disrespect there's a little contempt there IMO. You weren't aware, she's getting an even bigger thrill out of that. And, she's thinking, " I'm doing this right under your nose, how stupid are you? "

Of course you were just trusting your spouse as were most of us.


----------



## Malaise

sokillme said:


> Still don't know about the friends though. You will have to get to that.


Yep


If you do reconcile you have to know who these people are. Most likely they knew what was going on and enabled her.


----------



## BioFury

cam42 said:


> The whole asking me how she looked before she went to go see the OM. We talked about that when I went to that IC with her. Basically she said in her words "in her ****ed up and selfish mind I somehow thought that was perfectly okay to ask because you weren't aware of my betrayal, the last thing I was thinking about was your feelings and saying sorry is a complete understatement. But I'm absolutely sorry"
> 
> She came to me today and told me she wanted to ask me something, I said ok. She thinks I have been suffering in silence and says she wants to do whatever she can to help me because I haven't been saying much. She's telling me maybe professional help will be good? She said she's worried about me because I have been losing weight from the stress. I told her I'm fine and just to not worry about it.
> 
> Throughout this I haven't really had an appetite, it's starting to come back now. My wife told me she thinks we should follow a timeline of how long it takes for us to reconcile. She told me that recovering from infidelity could take up to five years, but that she would work for 100 if she had too. I kinda laughed at that.
> 
> She just said she's worried about me and wants me to go to the doctor. That even if I divorce her she is still going to care about my health and well being. I guess that's good to hear.
> 
> I told her I need space from her so no more attempted initiation of sex or anything, no more hugging. She said she will stop and admits she doesnt know whar should be doing. She's now aware of the term wayward spouse. Told me she's read threads about betrayed spouses and feels horrible for how much she's hurt me.
> 
> She said she will always want to renconcile no matter what, she loves me and the kids more than anything else in the world. She just wants all of us to be happy someday.
> 
> Still so confused ugh.


Why are you confused? She made a terrible mistake, and she now regrets it. You've made mistakes in your life, as have we all. When we look at them in hindsight, it was a stupid and horrible thing to do. But in the moment, we weren't thinking. If we had been, we wouldn't have done it.

You have every right to divorce. But after reading the thread, it's clear that you don't want to lose her. Based on her actions, and polygraph, she is truly remorseful, and wants to repair the damage she caused. There is thus no ongoing reason why your relationship can't be mended. So I would counsel you to follow your heart. Horrible things have happened, but a new day is dawning.


----------



## sokillme

Malaise said:


> A lot this is what SHE wants, not what YOU need.
> 
> And the bolded above: You weren't aware of the betrayal and she had the power then. Aside from the complete disrespect there's a little contempt there IMO. You weren't aware, she's getting an even bigger thrill out of that. And, she's thinking, " I'm doing this right under your nose, how stupid are you? "
> 
> Of course you were just trusting your spouse as were most of us.


Yeah it's pretty despicable. This woman shouldn't be married to anyone. I get that people fall our of love. I can even get that lonely people stray. I think its an awful thing to do. How anyone can treat a person who loves, has been loyal, and given them kids with such contempt is really something I will never understand. This is the Father of her children! That takes a special kind of awful. I just know that I wouldn't want to have those types of people in my life. Some things are beyond the pale.


----------



## Andy1001

BioFury said:


> Why are you confused? She made a terrible mistake, and she now regrets it. You've made mistakes in your life, as have we all. When we look at them in hindsight, it was a stupid and horrible thing to do. But in the moment, we weren't thinking. If we had been, we wouldn't have done it.
> 
> You have every right to divorce. But after reading the thread, it's clear that you don't want to lose her. Based on her actions, and polygraph, she is truly remorseful, and wants to repair the damage she caused. There is thus no ongoing reason why your relationship can't be mended. So I would counsel you to follow your heart. Horrible things have happened, but a new day is dawning.


What a load of unadulterated crap.She didn't have a MOMENT when she didn't think about what she was doing she had six MONTHS to think about what she was doing.Everyone makes mistakes,that's for sure I have made plenty myself.However screwing another person for six months while her husband and children were at home is a bit more than a mistake.And the most important thing Cam needs to remember is she didn't confess,she got caught.How much longer would this dirty little episode have lasted.I have no experience with infidelity so I can't begin to know how you are feeling,however as an unbiased outsider I would insist on your wife leaving the marriage home for as long as it took you to decide one way or the other what to do.With her there all the time she is overpowering and manipulating you and you need to see that.
If there is only one thing I could ask you to think about Cam it is this.Your wife would still be screwing this guy if your friend hadn't told you about her affair,she would still be laughing and giggling with her "friends" at you and how clever she was at was pulling the wool over your eyes.
Just think about that for a while.


----------



## mickybill

cam42 said:


> The whole asking me how she looked before she went to go see the OM. We talked about that when I went to that IC with her. Basically she said in her words "in her ****ed up and selfish mind I somehow thought that was perfectly okay to ask because you weren't aware of my betrayal, the last thing I was thinking about was your feelings and saying sorry is a complete understatement. But I'm absolutely sorry"


I really hope that YOU become happy with what ever path you take out of infidelity. D or R

I get it that people fall out of love but stay in a marriage and cheat for various reasons. I get that they are in a fog or addiction and don;t think straight. Cheating is an unoriginal sin.

But this "how do I look" bull**** need more of an explanation than I am really really sorry. It takes a depraved person to flaunt her infidelity like this. She chose to ask this and then probably when she was blowing the OM told him that her hubby thought she looked pretty...

A good IC or MC would not let her off the hook with saying I am sorry. Their job is to get to a real answer rather than sorry, there should've been 40 minutes of questions and discussion just on that.

There's more to it than you ****ed up, you trusted her.


----------



## eric1

*Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



cam42 said:


> The whole asking me how she looked before she went to go see the OM. We talked about that when I went to that IC with her. Basically she said in her words "in her ****ed up and selfish mind I somehow thought that was perfectly okay to ask because you weren't aware of my betrayal, the last thing I was thinking about was your feelings and saying sorry is a complete understatement. But I'm absolutely sorry"
> 
> She came to me today and told me she wanted to ask me something, I said ok. She thinks I have been suffering in silence and says she wants to do whatever she can to help me because I haven't been saying much. She's telling me maybe professional help will be good? She said she's worried about me because I have been losing weight from the stress. I told her I'm fine and just to not worry about it.
> 
> Throughout this I haven't really had an appetite, it's starting to come back now. My wife told me she thinks we should follow a timeline of how long it takes for us to reconcile. She told me that recovering from infidelity could take up to five years, but that she would work for 100 if she had too. I kinda laughed at that.
> 
> She just said she's worried about me and wants me to go to the doctor. That even if I divorce her she is still going to care about my health and well being. I guess that's good to hear.
> 
> I told her I need space from her so no more attempted initiation of sex or anything, no more hugging. She said she will stop and admits she doesnt know whar should be doing. She's now aware of the term wayward spouse. Told me she's read threads about betrayed spouses and feels horrible for how much she's hurt me.
> 
> She said she will always want to renconcile no matter what, she loves me and the kids more than anything else in the world. She just wants all of us to be happy someday.
> 
> Still so confused ugh.




Now she is doing and saying *some* right things. Though I do agree with the posters than things such as asking how she looked and how she acted during the affair could simply just be dealbreakers.

One thing is disagree with folks on is that while asking you how she looked was basically evil, it's possible she was so caught up and in love that she wasn't even thinking about you (personally I'd rather her be degrading you, atleast she'd have been thinking of you...degrading gives you something to work from.'nothing' does not)

It doesn't mean the marriage is saved or you even give a crap if it is, but she's atleast showing signs of remorse rather than regret.

You are going to have a tough decision either way. This sucks, huh?


----------



## Satya

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &amp;amp;quot;emotional affair&amp;amp;quot; with a married man*

Taking the time to figure out what you want is important. If you're confused as you say, then you're uncertain of what you want at the moment. While your wife may seem more attentive and concerned, she's got to do the heavy lifting without prompting or hand holding for it to be sincere and quantifiable. 

So, she should carry on learning from sources about what a WS should do. I'd tell her less and watch her actions more. If you tell her all the magic solutions she won't actually learn for herself. Let her do the work and you'll see if she really is in this for the 100 year long haul. 

It's OK to never think of her in the same way again, Cam. I totally blew up and started over after my first divorce, quite literally left my country of residence and dropped all our mutual friends. It was necessary, cathartic and I don't regret having done it, not for one second.


----------



## manwithnoname

mickybill said:


> I really hope that YOU become happy with what ever path you take out of infidelity. D or R
> 
> I get it that people fall out of love but stay in a marriage and cheat for various reasons. I get that they are in a fog or addiction and don;t think straight. Cheating is an unoriginal sin.
> 
> But this "how do I look" bull**** need more of an explanation than I am really really sorry. It takes a depraved person to flaunt her infidelity like this. She chose to ask this and then probably when *she was blowing the OM told him that her hubby thought she looked pretty...*
> 
> A good IC or MC would not let her off the hook with saying I am sorry. Their job is to get to a real answer rather than sorry, there should've been 40 minutes of questions and discussion just on that.
> 
> There's more to it than you ****ed up, you trusted her.



How could he tell what she was saying? :laugh:


----------



## Chaparral

If I were you just for extra knowledge, I would google infidelity statistics. 

A few years back there was a lot of info on them. About 1/3 of people reconcile after infidelity. Consider that only about 20% discover the infidelity at all. The stat that I thought was glaring is that 70-80% wished that they had reconciled. I still ponder why that is. A discouraging stat was that 70% of the married folks claimed they would like to have an affair if they knew they wouldn't get caught. Actually half of them do have an affair and the vast majority don't get caught. Ironically, many people that advocate divorce all the time have been cheated on and don't know it. 

There have been many great posters here in the past that successfully reconciled but are no longer with us because of the rudeness showed to them from other posters. That has always amazed me. This site has been a my way or the highway for a long time.


----------



## manwithnoname

Cam, you're getting lots of advice on what to do, and I'll repeat some and say do what is best for you. 

You are taking your time until you figure things out. Taking your time with R is better than rushing R, for sure. Not sure if it matters with D, unless it affects any deal you can make. 

Keep in mind she is reading up on this stuff, and likely is going for the "remorse" but not quite able to pull it off because she may not be truly remorseful. 

In my marriage, if these things happened I would not hesitate with D at all, because of scarce sex, kids are grown etc. different situation. 

Her asking how she looked is troublesome, but for me the fact that the OM broke it off would be worse. Would she have left for him if he left his wife? If he broke NC now and said he wanted her to go away with him, would she go, thinking she still may lose you anyway? This is what I would be thinking of. And the fact that if there is an R, in the back of your mind will always be the thought that she may be screwing around again, but next time she will be more careful to not get caught.


----------



## Chaparral

Btw , if you consider R, insist on a postnup.


----------



## farsidejunky

Speaking as a poster only:

A good friend used to call this forum the Torch and Pitchfork Brigade. This thread is anecdotally proving such.

Cam, no explanation for the infidelity or the "How do I look" moment will be good enough. Accept that now.

At this point you have been given multiple posts of sound action you can take at this point for what you obviously want, which is reconciliation.

I totally get being hurt. She delivered a crushing blow. But at some point, the punishment of the wayward has to stop and either reconciliation or divorce needs to begin. That starts with you understanding that while you are a victim, you don't have to remain one.

Folks other than Cam:

Take a deep breath. He is handling this pretty well, and his wife is far from the worst wayward we have seen here. She quickly moved from fog to regret, and is beginning to show remorse. 

There is hope here. Let's not convince him there isn't.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Well said FJ. Thankfully, a voice of reason and sanity! Cam42, yes there is hope. Yes your wife can change for the better. Mine did and is still going the extra mile for me.

You are getting the same **** on this thread I got on mine when I decided to R. Some of this you have to ignore as they are projecting their situation to you. There is no one size fits all answer to you situation. Each is different. 

My advice is follow your heart. Do what is in your best interest. Take your time. Time allows for clarity of thought.

You are handling this well in my opinion.


----------



## ABHale

How are your kids Cam?

I agree that you have the info you need. The thing now is for you to figure out if you can get past this and put it behind you one day and R. Are you willing to put in the years of effort into this marriage with your WW. If not, do you stay until the girls graduate then leave or leave when you make the discussion. 

I agree you need to know who knew about your wife's affair. She should give these people up. Also when you meet them in public you know who and what they are. 

The ball is in your court Cam it's your play but there is no game clock. Take the time you need to make your decision. 

This can't be easy Cam I know. Just the things that happened in my marriage, no infidelity, has changed the way I feel for my wife. I still love and care for her but not like it was. If she cheated today I would be gone tomorrow. I know there would be nothing left to work for.


----------



## SunCMars

sokillme said:


> Still don't know about the friends though. You will have to get to that. So lets say that she follows through. What do you want. *Do you want to be married to someone like her? Here is the thing, yes it will probably take 5 years or longer, and the affair will be a permanent part of your relationship. I posted some threads from people who R'ed on this one, even the best R have a big old affair invading every part of the marriage.
> *
> If you move on you get a start fresh. There will come a point where she tires of going 100%. At the end of the day she will just be a typical wife who asked you how she looked before she went out with he boyfriend. The drama will die down and you will be stuck eating a **** sandwich, with a disloyal person.
> 
> Do you really want that life? I say get the best deal you can from her D and start a new life.
> 
> There are better women out there then her. Ones who are worth it. LOYAL ones who have character enough to not go back on their word because they are bored. Frankly that is not too much to ask.
> 
> Marriage is hard enough without trying to pretend the person you are with didn't *stab you in the eye*. You divorce her get in shape and you will be back to your old self again in about a year. You date again and your self esteem will heal. You fall in love again and all the pain of what she did to you will lose it sting because it won't be attached to feelings of love, because you will love someone else.
> 
> Read any thread where they guy D and D quickly and they always, ALWAYS end up better off then the ones who hold on in misery.
> 
> You can marry someone new who is a better person. Oh and you can tell her to go find someone else to take care of, preferably someone she didn't stab in the back for ****s and giggles.
> 
> The thing that strikes me the most about your wife is how she has tried to basically strong arm your recovery from the very moment she got dumped by her boyfriend. Sorry man but she kinda sucks. You can do better.


Another good post.

She is asking YOU for a timeline?

Why would she ask for a timeline? Think about it. She threw out the number.....five years. That is what the literature says.

She is hedging her bets. She has her biological clock running trying to sync it with your STATED resolve.

She is asking for a ballpark figure from you. How long can I work this before I get balled again. How long to I have to go before I get a penis again. Can I wait that long? Do I want to wait that long?
What will our relationship look like. 

In fairness, she is putting her green accounting cap on. She is doing the math and looking in the mirror at the same time. She is NOT a patient person. She IS NOT a person who can easily restrain HER NEEDS for long.

She is getting antsy, she is getting impatient and she is getting HORNY.

Why do you think she cheated on you? She cannot restrain her desires. She is a love junky.

The statement about being able to wait one hundred years for you to "R". To get over the hurt. To finally pull down your slacks and pull out that [frankfurter] "frankly fur-her" shaped thing that she loves
and wants to put in her furry bun...you provide the mustard? That time line is false, is gas lighting to convince you that she is deeply committed to your marriage.

She is, frankly, Cam, a worthy and very intelligent opponent. A foe worthy of an equally intelligent and devious man. The men on this blog, TAM, who want YOU to reconcile with her are now under her spell.

Only THEY do not know it. This women reeks of sensuality, smells of passion...the kind of smell that women emit after hours of lovemaking. Some women get embarrassed about this smell.
How wrong they are. That smell will stop a raging army of men...in their tracks. I too, can smell it. The scent hides in the [olfactory]..nay, in old-factory recesses of my lusty mind.

If you do decide to keep her [even after divorce], keep her for a vessel to unload your lust on. Wear her out. 

She wants sex? Bury her in it. Bury your lusty six inches in that thing.

But do not trust her, do not invest anymore heart beats in her Living Trust.

If she turns sideways, she is very, very thing thin. Plenty of intellect, plenty of lust...no depth of character.


----------



## straightshooter

*The whole asking me how she looked before she went to go see the OM. We talked about that when I went to that IC with her. Basically she said in her words "in her ****ed up and selfish mind I somehow thought that was perfectly okay to ask because you weren't aware of my betrayal, the last thing I was thinking about was your feelings and saying sorry is a complete understatement. But I'm absolutely sorry" *



Cam,

What makes this so bad is NOT that she somehow was purposely trying to disrespect you. Her explanation is terrible. What she should have said was the truth, which was she was so "in love" with her boyfriend and new exciting sex that she could have cared less. Basically, she just told you if she had not been caught it would have happened again for sure.

Saying she is sorry is a given fact. What options does she have anyway. It really is so crazy to be giving all this credit for saying she is sorry. Incorporated in your decision, no matter how you slice it, you are going to have to come to grips that this was MORE than a simple hook up affair. 

You did the exact right thing telling her to stop the sex luring. You really wanted some space which she refused to give you by moving back in. What you real dilema is that you are now under and will be extreme pressure from her and her family to R, as well as those here who somehow believe she is just the model of a remorseful wayward for this light bulb cessation of the lying and denying once you filed.

You have addressed much of what you need to know EXCEPT the girlfriends. big mistake if you do not get that one nailed down.


----------



## drifting on

Cam

About the how do I look before going on a date, that's about as truthful an answer you will ever get. Does that answer help you? Hell no. Did she think it was ok to ask? Hell yes. Why? Because of this, fantasy. An affair doesn't contain reality, she didn't raise kids with OM, she didn't pay bills with OM, it was a stress free life with no strings attached. Basically it's like a fairy tale, and the worst part of this is, neither of the two involved in an affair have a foot in reality. The sky is always blue in affair land. I would think its like visiting never never land or Disney at the age of six, it's magical. My wife can't stand the phrase, have magical day, because I said that to her for a week after d-day. Some of the words that come out of their mouth is amazing, but for them it's the truth. 

What good do you see from your wife right now? Do you SEE remorse? Remember, remorse is far different from regret and guilt, remorse is seeing and feeling your pain. Let me tell you what I can see from your wife. The good that she is showing is, she's truthful, she's being honest to the point it's raw, she's feeling guilt and shame, she is noticing you lost weight, she is noticing you have detached some, she is very scared, she has noticed your pain and suffering. For her to recommend IC to you is the first time I didn't see her as selfish. I would think the norm would be that the wayward offer to help you heal, but the truth is, IC is the best help you need. These are little changes you need to see, but the important part is they are changes for the better. 

Now for the bad that I see from your wife. She wants a timeline to use while reconciling. For her to even ask for reconciliation is selfish, and then to place your healing on a timeline is even more selfish. You will heal at your own pace, your response to a timeline should be to give you a timeline of the affair. That is the only timeline that is acceptable in reconciliation. If she has any part of her that is selfish at this point, she is not ready to reconcile. A good question to ask her would be to write out how she would go about reconciliation. What would she change? What would she implement? Just these questions alone will show her selfishness if you have any doubts. 

I believe your wife is getting closer to remorse each day. Even though she is selfish, the fact she noticed you suffering silently and losing weight are positive signs. She is thinking of you on that, she recommended a doctor and a therapist. She didn't say to let her help you through this. That is actually huge in her thinking with the selfish behavior she has displayed so far. She also displayed a small amount of vulnerability to you, that I see as stunning. 

I do hope you are in IC, just for the fact that you heal yourself and bs the best that you can. It's not for your kids, it's not for your wife, it's for you, and you only. The best that you can be makes you the best father you can be, the best partner you can be for your wife or another relationship. So that you will see that you will be OK, you will be happy again, you will find peace with yourself. That is what IC is for, healing you and making the best you you can be. 

Obviously you can divorce, and if you had doubts of reconciliation, watch her actions. Her actions will either make you feel safe to reconcile or unsafe to divorce. Keep your mind open, stay focused on you and your children, watch your wife and her actions. She isn't remorseful quite yet, but if she stays the path she is currently on, it will come. 

I will pm you some helpful thoughts on therapy that helped me move forward.


----------



## Yeswecan

cam42 said:


> The whole asking me how she looked before she went to go see the OM. We talked about that when I went to that IC with her. Basically she said in her words "in her ****ed up and selfish mind I somehow thought that was perfectly okay to ask because you weren't aware of my betrayal, the last thing I was thinking about was your feelings and saying sorry is a complete understatement. But I'm absolutely sorry"


Hey Cam...all things considered you are doing well. My take on this...your W was totally 100% detached from you when she asked how she looked. You were no more then a friend. Of course you were not aware. You were also not aware you were simply thought of as some acquaintance who may offer an opinion on her looks for OM. If that is not totally removing oneself from a H and family I don't know what to tell you. IMO, your W mental state was totally detached from the entire reality of you, family and history. Completely socked in with fog. Your W answer is poor at best. Your W mentally was 100% gone IMO.

It does appear the fog is lifted. Your W witnessing the aftermath. Your W appears to be working on getting this right and is forthcoming in stating she does not know what to do. The key is your W does appear to be trying. That is always a good start.

EDIT: I wanted to add...I think your W will one day soon feel a ton of bricks hit her for that very moment when she asked you how she looked and truly understand the depth of the betrayal. IMO, at that time, truly show remorse.


----------



## sokillme

farsidejunky said:


> Speaking as a poster only:
> 
> A good friend used to call this forum the Torch and Pitchfork Brigade. This thread is anecdotally proving such.
> 
> Cam, no explanation for the infidelity or the "How do I look" moment will be good enough. Accept that now.
> 
> At this point you have been given multiple posts of sound action you can take at this point for what you obviously want, which is reconciliation.
> 
> I totally get being hurt. She delivered a crushing blow. But at some point, the punishment of the wayward has to stop and either reconciliation or divorce needs to begin. That starts with you understanding that while you are a victim, you don't have to remain one.
> 
> Folks other than Cam:
> 
> Take a deep breath. He is handling this pretty well, and his wife is far from the worst wayward we have seen here. She quickly moved from fog to regret, and is beginning to show remorse.
> 
> There is hope here. Let's not convince him there isn't.


Guess that depends on your definition of hope is. I suspect yours and mine are very different. Personally I couldn't be happy with someone who abused me so much. It would be too much of a blow to my psyche. Hope for me would be starting new with someone better. 



> A good friend used to call this forum the Torch and Pitchfork Brigade. This thread is anecdotally proving such.


Or in other words when someone behaves with terrible cruelty, other people have an issue with that. Life has consequences, acting like a horrible person makes other people think you are one. 

Look man, most of us got bullied on the school yard. Some of us punched the bully back, some of us tried to become the bullies best friend. Guess it's just what type of person you are.



> I totally get being hurt. She delivered a crushing blow. But at some point, the punishment of the wayward has to stop and either reconciliation or divorce needs to begin.


I know right? I mean it's been a month! sigh.. You guys are too much, you advocate for so little.


----------



## sokillme

Andy1001 said:


> What a load of unadulterated crap.She didn't have a MOMENT when she didn't think about what she was doing she had six MONTHS to think about what she was doing.Everyone makes mistakes,that's for sure I have made plenty myself.However screwing another person for six months while her husband and children were at home is a bit more than a mistake.And the most important thing Cam needs to remember is she didn't confess,she got caught.How much longer would this dirty little episode have lasted.I have no experience with infidelity so I can't begin to know how you are feeling,however as an unbiased outsider I would insist on your wife leaving the marriage home for as long as it took you to decide one way or the other what to do.With her there all the time she is overpowering and manipulating you and you need to see that.
> If there is only one thing I could ask you to think about Cam it is this.Your wife would still be screwing this guy if your friend hadn't told you about her affair,she would still be laughing and giggling with her "friends" at you and how clever she was at was pulling the wool over your eyes.
> Just think about that for a while.


I know right. I love the "everyone is capable of this" stuff that people who want desperately use to justify bad behavior. Don't insult me I am not a cheating *******. Plenty of us are not "capable" of it.


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## sokillme

mickybill said:


> But this "how do I look" bull**** need more of an explanation than I am really really sorry. It takes a depraved person to flaunt her infidelity like this. She chose to ask this and then probably when she was blowing the OM told him that her hubby thought she looked pretty...


The explanation is she didn't give a ****. And she is the type of person who is capable of treating people like garbage when she doesn't care about them. Even the Father of her own children. Most couldn't even do that to a stranger. You got to be pretty cold-hearted and lack even the basics of shame to behave like that. 

There is no deep answer here. Occam's razor. It's just her character.


----------



## sokillme

Chaparral said:


> If I were you just for extra knowledge, I would google infidelity statistics.
> 
> A few years back there was a lot of info on them. About 1/3 of people reconcile after infidelity. Consider that only about 20% discover the infidelity at all. The stat that I thought was glaring is that 70-80% wished that they had reconciled. I still ponder why that is. A discouraging stat was that 70% of the married folks claimed they would like to have an affair if they knew they wouldn't get caught. Actually half of them do have an affair and the vast majority don't get caught. Ironically, many people that advocate divorce all the time have been cheated on and don't know it.
> 
> There have been many great posters here in the past that successfully reconciled but are no longer with us because of the rudeness showed to them from other posters. That has always amazed me. This site has been a my way or the highway for a long time.


Source please?

Here is a good example of what to expect when you R. Written by people who had the best outcome, on a pro R section of the site.


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## SunCMars

After much thought, this is what I would tell her, if you want to reconcile.

Tell her that the Divorce will occur. After the divorce, you will date her for one year. If she wants to date you alone, during this period, then so be it.

Tell her [while divorced] that she is [technically] free to do as she pleases. But if she wants YOU back she has to remain faithful to you, alone.

And tell her if you two remarry, a brand new prenup must be signed by her.

Her reaction will tell you if the [her 100 year wait for R, is real]....or that the 100 year flood plain has already met it's height of deceit.

Stand back.....the gears whirring in her pretty head will vibrate your fillings out.


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## sokillme

SunCMars said:


> After much thought, this is what I would tell her, if you want to reconcile.
> 
> Tell her that the Divorce will occur. After the divorce, you will date her for one year. If she wants to date you alone, during this period, then so be it.
> 
> Tell her [while divorced] that she is [technically] free to do as she pleases. But if she wants YOU back she has to remain faithful to you, alone.
> 
> And tell her if you two remarry, a brand new prenup must be signed by her.
> 
> Her reaction will tell you if the [her 100 year wait for R, is real]....or that the 100 year flood plain has already met it's height of deceit.
> 
> Stand back.....the gears whirring in her pretty head will vibrate your fillings out.


This is better advice then just jumping into R. At least you get some power in your relationship dynamic. You just jump back to R and you lose all the power and agency in your marriage.


----------



## Tron

farsidejunky said:


> speaking as a poster only:
> 
> A good friend used to call this forum the torch and pitchfork brigade. This thread is anecdotally proving such.
> 
> Cam, no explanation for the infidelity or the "how do i look" moment will be good enough. Accept that now.
> 
> At this point you have been given multiple posts of sound action you can take at this point for what you obviously want, which is reconciliation.
> 
> I totally get being hurt. She delivered a crushing blow. But at some point, the punishment of the wayward has to stop and either reconciliation or divorce needs to begin. That starts with you understanding that while you are a victim, you don't have to remain one.
> 
> Folks other than cam:
> 
> Take a deep breath. He is handling this pretty well, and his wife is far from the worst wayward we have seen here. She quickly moved from fog to regret, and is beginning to show remorse.
> 
> There is hope here. Let's not convince him there isn't.


amen!


----------



## Graywolf2

cam42 said:


> Also told me that please know even if you decide to divorce me I will always love you, I will cherish our kids and every memory you gave me, you have made my life amazing beyond words and if you leave me I want you to know you're an wonderful husband, father and man.





cam42 said:


> That even if I divorce her she is still going to care about my health and well being. I guess that's good to hear.


She sounds like the perfect ex wife. What would be the downside of divorcing her or divorcing her and living with her? Would someone lose their health insurance?



cam42 said:


> I want to believe she's sincere I really do. *I'm just so afraid of being hurt again*.


If she’s a live in girlfriend it will not hurt as much if she betrays you again. As a bonus if she does betray you again all your ducks will already be in a row to move on. Being divorced is even better than a post nup. A post nup can be contested. Plus arrangements about the kids can’t be part of a post nup.
Stop agonizing. Divorce her. Move on or live with her and **** her brains out. You can keep some pride and remarry her someday if she proves herself worthy.

*EDIT: Put what she said above to the test. Tell her that you're going to divorce her but will give R a chance by living with her. See if she freaks out or thanks you.*


----------



## Tron

cam42 said:


> The whole asking me how she looked before she went to go see the OM. We talked about that when I went to that IC with her. Basically she said in her words "in her ****ed up and selfish mind I somehow thought that was perfectly okay to ask because you weren't aware of my betrayal, the last thing I was thinking about was your feelings and saying sorry is a complete understatement. But I'm absolutely sorry"


Cam,

I will share with you a similar personal experience. I cheated on my W, then fiance and about 10 years later into what had been a pretty ****ty marriage up to that point, I met up with my HS sweetheart at lunch just to talk. That morning, you guessed it, I asked my W how I looked. I wanted to look good for my old flame. Kinda messed up, right? 

I've though about that morning quite a bit over the years. I am pretty sure that I didn't really think about disrespecting my W, as I was in a bit of a fog at the time, but my thinking was nothing more than me asking my best friend (my W), someone I could trust, how I looked that morning. 

I did want to look good for my HS sweetheart, for nothing more than maybe that she would realize what she had been missing all those years. I did not think about my W's feelings at the time at all. Was it disrespectful to my W? Yeah, probably. Was it selfish? Abso-fricking-lutely! But that is what and who I was at the time. I make no excuses for my behavior, and I'll be forever grateful to my W that she gave me a chance to clean up my act and be the H that she needs. 

For whatever that's worth. 

I see some really positive things happening with your W. She's trying. And I hope that it's enough for you to make an attempt to R.


----------



## alte Dame

I've come to believe that the WS can experience a remorseful state where (s)he truly is more grieved by the pain that has been caused to others than by the pain the WS experiences. I think this takes time, though.

Your WW sounds like she's almost having a a-ha moment that could lead to remorse. She's concerned about you and your pain.

When she starts to lose weight because she herself is in pain because of how you feel, then you have remorse. I don't think this realization has hit her yet, and if it does, you will have a shot at R, imo.


----------



## Robbie1234

sokillme said:


> The explanation is she didn't give a ****. And she is the type of person who is capable of treating people like garbage when she doesn't care about them. Even the Father of her own children. Most couldn't even do that to a stranger. You got to be pretty cold-hearted and lake even the basics of shame to behave like that.
> 
> There is no deep answer here. Occam's razor. It's just her character.


She is sorry she had to end her affair that's all.


----------



## sokillme

Tron said:


> Was it disrespectful to my W? Yeah, probably


Your not doing Ws any favors here. But this is a good example of how you guys think. Probably. :frown2:


----------



## manwithnoname

SunCMars said:


> After much thought, this is what I would tell her, if you want to reconcile.
> 
> Tell her that the Divorce will occur. After the divorce, you will date her for one year. If she wants to date you alone, during this period, then so be it.
> 
> Tell her [while divorced] that she is [technically] free to do as she pleases. But if she wants YOU back she has to remain faithful to you, alone.
> 
> And tell her if you two remarry, a brand new prenup must be signed by her.
> 
> Her reaction will tell you if the [her 100 year wait for R, is real]....or that the 100 year flood plain has already met it's height of deceit.
> 
> Stand back.....the gears whirring in her pretty head will vibrate your fillings out.



This sounds like a very good plan for Cam. It allows him to leave the R option open without looking like a ***** for taking her back right away, plus it give him some leverage for the future.


----------



## barbados

cam42 said:


> The whole asking me how she looked before she went to go see the OM. We talked about that when I went to that IC with her. Basically she said in her words "in her ****ed up and selfish mind I somehow thought that was perfectly okay to ask because you weren't aware of my betrayal, the last thing I was thinking about was your feelings and saying sorry is a complete understatement. But I'm absolutely sorry"
> 
> She came to me today and told me she wanted to ask me something, I said ok. She thinks I have been suffering in silence and says she wants to do whatever she can to help me because I haven't been saying much. She's telling me maybe professional help will be good? She said she's worried about me because I have been losing weight from the stress. I told her I'm fine and just to not worry about it.
> 
> Throughout this I haven't really had an appetite, it's starting to come back now. *My wife told me she thinks we should follow a timeline of how long it takes for us to reconcile*. She told me that recovering from infidelity could take up to five years, but that she would work for 100 if she had too. I kinda laughed at that.
> 
> She just said she's worried about me and wants me to go to the doctor. That even if I divorce her she is still going to care about my health and well being. I guess that's good to hear.
> 
> *I told her I need space from her so no more attempted initiation of sex or anything, no more hugging.* She said she will stop and admits she doesnt know whar should be doing. She's now aware of the term wayward spouse. Told me she's read threads about betrayed spouses and feels horrible for how much she's hurt me.
> 
> She said she will always want to renconcile no matter what,* she loves me and the kids more than anything else in the world*. *She just wants all of us to be happy someday*.
> 
> Still so confused ugh.


She cheated on your for 6 months. She has been now inconvenienced in her life for about one month, and now she wants a reconciliation timeline already.

You told her before that you needed space, but she insisted on coming back to the house, and now dogs you for sex and a timeline to make things go away. 

If she had loved you and kids more than anything in the world, she would not have cheated, she loved herself much more.

No, SHE wants to be happy again. And SHE wants it NOW !

Just more and more examples of this woman being completely selfish. Its still really all about her. Just like when she was cheating.

And remember, she was not going to end the A, and she broke NC.


----------



## ABHale

My only question would be, after the answer she gave about asking how she looked, would be. 

If the OM said he was in love with her and asked her to leave you, would she have?

Mute point if she realized what she was doing and confessed. She didn't, she was caught, lied about it and is now, IMO, in damage control. 

Would she have left you Cam?


----------



## Graywolf2

cam42 said:


> The whole asking me how she looked before she went to go see the OM. We talked about that when I went to that IC with her. Basically she said in her words "in her ****ed up and selfish mind I somehow thought that was perfectly okay to ask because you weren't aware of my betrayal, the last thing I was thinking about was your feelings and saying sorry is a complete understatement. But I'm absolutely sorry"





Tron said:


> I met up with my HS sweetheart at lunch just to talk. That morning, you guessed it, I asked my W how I looked. I wanted to look good for my old flame. Kinda messed up, right?
> 
> I've though about that morning quite a bit over the years. I am pretty sure that I didn't really think about disrespecting my W, as I was in a bit of a fog at the time, but *my thinking was nothing more than me asking my best friend (my W), someone I could trust, how I looked *that morning.


The above is a more hopeful explanation than the one she gave. As I said before you were in her friend and family zone. Asking how you look before you go out on a big date is something you do with a friend or family member without thinking. You weren't in the "mate" file in her brain, just the OM was. Plus she wasn’t really cheating because she was coming home to daddy after she was done. Lucky you.


----------



## Bibi1031

SunCMars said:


> She dated this man for six months.
> 
> They went out in public, holding hands. She flaunted her infidelity.
> 
> *One night she got all dolled up, hairdo, makeup, nice clothes. She asked Cam how she looked.*
> 
> *He said she looked great. That night she went on a date with OM. And OM stuck it in her.
> *
> Nice lady? Not...


The bold part is important, it's a window into the real her. This and the phone call she accepted from her OM. Her loyalty on the above quote was for her OM then and her loyalty still is for the OM when she took that phone call. Why offer the gift of reconciliation to a woman whose loyalty in not with you or yours? (you being the BS and yours being the children she had with the BS). 

That is why I said ACTIONS speak louder than words...she truly needs to be shown the door. I know it's hard, but there truly is no remorse; only crocodile tears, manipulation and damage control. Very selfish type of woman this one. 

I had my doubts. I really thought she could be different at the beginning of this, but after breaking the NC rule; her inner true colors appeared in all their ugliness. 

Take your time Cam, but do it with your eyes wide open. The phone call was a huge red flag that something is off kilter within her and within you for not seeing where her loyalties are with.

Fool you once, shame on her, fool you twice shame on you. :crying:


----------



## Tron

sokillme said:


> Your not doing Ws any favors here. But this is a good example of how you guys think. Probably. :frown2:


Thing is, I meant no disrespect and she never mentioned it to me afterwards. 

Apparently I spent a lot more time thinking about that turn of events and that morning than my W ever did. I also spent a lot of time looking at my life up to that point. There were some things that happened to me as a teen and young adult that really F'd me up. It was a really good thing for me to get into IC and deal with those issues. I wish I had had the opportunity and gumption to do that before I hurt my W the way I did. 

Whether they divorce or reconcile, if Cam's W is spending time figuring her **** out, that is a good thing. Some waywards never develop that level of self awareness. And...I don't think I am out of line stating that if they don't, they aren't very good reconciliation material. 

Her wanting to get the R ball rolling ASAP isn't surprising at all. She wants to fix it. Problem is she needs to fix herself first. She will never be able to fix you. And she can't fix the marriage by herself. 

It is totally ok to take your time and wait and see how she does and how you feel. In fact, that would be advisable.


----------



## SunCMars

Bibi1031 said:


> The bold part is important, it's a window into the real her. This and the phone call she accepted from her OM. Her loyalty on the above quote was for her OM then and her loyalty still is for the OM when she took that phone call. Why offer the gift of reconciliation to a woman whose loyalty in not with you or yours? (you being the BS and yours being the children she had with the BS).
> 
> That is why I said ACTIONS speak louder than words...she truly needs to be shown the door. I know it's hard, but there truly is no remorse; only crocodile tears, manipulation and damage control. Very selfish type of woman this one.
> 
> I had my doubts. I really thought she could be different at the beginning of this, but after breaking the NC rule; her inner true colors appeared in all their ugliness.
> 
> Take your time Cam, but do it with your eyes wide open. The phone call was a huge red flag that something is off kilter within her and within you for not seeing where her loyalties are with.
> 
> Fool you once, shame on her, fool you twice shame on you. :crying:


This incident burns me to the bone, too, two deep. Talk about flippancy, callousness, outright cruelty. Fog does not do this. Her mind's ass [was bare]... exposed to her husband's loving stare.

Cameron loved his wife. She knew this. She took his complement about her appearance in one bite.....swallowed the bag of shame without a flinch, without a grimace of re-Morse Code.

Guilt? Empathy? Those are merely words in a dictionary to her. 

She is not evil.....no, she is not.....quite human. Oh, I know she has all the sultry feminine attributes. 

Does she have the mental attributes? *No, a couple of Commonwealth of Virginia Wolf parts are missing.*

And her excuse? ~ "Well, since you did not know what I was doing, I did not think it was a bad thing". 

Basically, *What you don't know, can't hurt you*. True and [oh, so] cold logic from a selfish mind.

If You or I would do this: "Ask a spouse how we looked before going on a date with a lover, we would feel sick with guilt." Right....Richtig?

One would hope.


----------



## DonaldDuck666

Well, reconciliation or not, who knows. But you need to get to a MC right away to figure that out. And she needs to go with you. As my MC used to say, affairs don't cause a bad marriage. A bad marriage causes affairs. That's certainly not to excuse her behavior, but there's more to this than you imagine. You need help to figure all that out before you decided to split or not.


----------



## SunCMars

Yes, I say it again...some of the men posting and recommending R are under the spell of this lusty wayward. I smell it.

My head reels from this odor. Women are soooo seductive.

And men? Such fools !!!!!!!!

Count me in. Oops, can't fit. My shoulders are too wide. They cannot fit between the jail bars.

Breaking into a jail? Yea, men are dumb.


----------



## sokillme

Tron said:


> Thing is, I meant no disrespect and she never mentioned it to me afterwards.


I have no doubt that you didn't, but that really don't make it any better, in is just a different kind of bad. You were completely oblivious to how disrespectful and degrading this is. Even now you say "probably", this just shows how little this resonates with you. No doubt you may also think what Cam's wife did was "probably" disrespectful. Again from reading many WS threads, as far as I see this is typical of how most think. What you have to understand to most of us this looks like a horror show. There in lies the disconnect. There in lies the problem. You guys don't get it. There is not emotional visceral connection to how awful this is. Just like his wife - "I was thinking really selfishly". No this is a totally different kicking the dog type level of awful. As you can see on this thread for most of us it's stomach turning. 

Now you happen to be lucky that to your wife this isn't a big deal. To most it would be.


----------



## sokillme

DonaldDuck666 said:


> Well, reconciliation or not, who knows. But you need to get to a MC right away to figure that out. And she needs to go with you. As my MC used to say, affairs don't cause a bad marriage.* A bad marriage causes affairs.* That's certainly not to excuse her behavior, but there's more to this than you imagine. You need help to figure all that out before you decided to split or not.


Most don't recommend going to MC until the WS has dealt with her issues in IC. Besides that MC assumes they are working on the M, as far as I can tell Cam hasn't decided to R yet. 

The bolded part is bull****. Even most of those on here pushing for R wouldn't agree with that. Plenty of WS say there marriage was great and they have an affair anyway. Affairs are cause by poor character and lack of boundaries. If bad marriages caused affairs why doesn't everyone in a bad marriage have an affair. Cam was in the marriage too and he didn't cheat. It may be necessary to think that way to trick your mind into R though, especially with this kind of betrayal.


----------



## bigfoot

Talking it out is good. Perhaps seeing her realize the damage that she has done will help you. For some BS's it helps them to feel that their wayward "gets it". Perhaps you are one of those people?

Then again, perhaps you are like others who just acknowledge that this is a deal breaker. In your case with the added cherry on top that she had you to approve of her looks when she was going to hook up with the guy.

Your decision making process is your own. I, for one, could care less if they "get it". It is not like it's rocket science. Betrayal hurts and destroys. Not a secret. Not something that needs to be figured out. My misery does not love company. It is time for you to get in touch with who YOU are.

Are you the kind who can move past this? Are you the kind that loves her so much that you will take this pain as part of the package to stay with her? Is it worth it to you? if you answer those questions, then you can move on to whether she is safe, worth it, or whatever you need her to be. If, however, you are not the type to move past it. If the pain of staying with your betrayer and the logistics of it are not worth it to you, then who cares what type of wife she MIGHT become? It is the type wife that she has been that answers the question.

Keep digging into who you are. One you find that out, you will know what to do, even if it is the hardest thing you've ever done.


----------



## Tron

And for the record, I went into IC and we went into MC concurrently. I immediately took the initiative, set them up and we went. 

I think that we both wanted the marriage to work. 

And note, she didn't get the whole story for a month or so after dday. And we were already in MC. 

IMO there is no magic way to do it, but some ways are definitely better than others. Counseling sure helps a bunch if you are open to it and you get a good counselor. I think most of the folks with successful reconciliations would agree on that.


----------



## harrybrown

She still is selfish. She wants what she wants. 

Why did she do it? why will she not do this to you again? 

How many affairs has she had over the years? Some people can beat lie detector tests. What will she do when the next OM comes along?

So do you get to go out with someone and she can help you to look great?

for at least 6 months?

Hope you have the D filed. Next time she cheats it will be easier for you, because you will be divorced.

Get the D done.


----------



## Bibi1031

SunCMars said:


> This incident burns me to the bone, too, two deep. Talk about flippancy, callousness, outright cruelty. Fog does not do this. *Her mind's ass [was bare]... exposed to her husband's loving stare.
> *
> 
> *Guilt? Empathy? Those are merely words in a dictionary to her. *
> 
> She is not evil.....no, she is not.....quite human. Oh, I know she has all the sultry feminine attributes.
> 
> 
> If You or I would do this: "Ask a spouse how we looked before going on a date with a lover, we would feel sick with guilt." Right....Richtig?
> 
> One would hope.


I think we are missing the point that @Yeswecan hit the bulls-eye with. She was too far detached. Her problem didn't start with the affair. It was much longer than that. You don't come back, and most certainly not this quickly, from that kind of detachment. Once you are not seen by your spouse as a spouse, you're relationship doesn't stand a chance and a third party easily is introduced into the mess. 

I agree, guilt and empathy don't register in her yet. She is simply mimicking understanding this happening with her family. She is faking it until she feels it so to speak. She is trying that is true, but she is "settling" to appease those she hurt and not because she truly understands and loves those she hurt. It's obvious who it is that she loves and has feelings for. Even if she will never say this out loud and can mask it enough to pass a poly. MC when someone is not ready is only throwing away time and money. She needs IC. She has the problem and lack of feelings (empathy, remorse, guilt etc.) She is very selfish and manipulative and this is probably not new, it just came out of the closet with the aftermath of dday. 

I'm sorry Cam, but you married someone with deep seeded character flaws that when she detached, she simply could not be honest with herself and much less with you and blame this whole sordid mess on falling in love with OM. She will not tell you this because she is on damage control mode. That is why she stated she loves YOU. Her actions beg to differ. 

These type of individuals can't be more honest with their loved ones because they can't be more honest with themselves. They lack that introspection or it is too painful for them to look into themselves that deeply.

Based on her actions when she was in full affair mode, her detachment level, and breaking NC; there is no way she loves you like she now claims. It's not possible. If she did love you, she simply would have not engaged in the type of affair she engaged in. 

You have to seriously think about your lines in the sand regarding this. Can you accept a marriage where she is settling just to save those she hurt? Is that the type of marriage you want? The love is just not there regardless of how many times she states those words, they are just words. Oh, she may love you alright, like a brother; but most certainly not like a spouse. That type of love is already taken. 

I know I am being repetitive, but this important truth needs to be seriously accepted and not disguised (for lack of a better word) because it is indeed very painful. Nobody likes to be rejected by the ONE they thought would never do this to them. Sadly, you cannot be unrejected either. Are you willing to have a spouse that can't give you the type of love you deserve and vowed for? Can you "settle" for that? Believe me, you are settling if you do accept her and that is OK, but you honestly deserve better than the hand you have been dealt.


----------



## cam42

I went to her counselor with her. I think it was somewhat productive. She was actually able to talk without crying and I feel she conducted herself like an adult. 

The counselor told me she talks a lot about me and the children then again she could just try to make her look good. I didn't have anything else to do and was curious if we could have productive discussions about our future. 

I told her nothing is set in stone and to not get her hopes up. She said she's looking forward to spending her life with me or coparenting with me. 

I've kinda developed a new attitude. I was always nice and did whatever she wanted. Now I just kind of do what I want and she seems to be receptive towards it. Feels like I'm in control. She basically does whatever I ask. Been reading no more mr nice guy and have a general idea on how to behave for this relationship or future ones. 

She reads some stuff on SI and has multiple affair books. Told me all she wants to do is to do whatever makes me happy and the children happy. 

What she did was disgusting and earth shattering. But I don't know I just feel better and more confident nowadays. Also told me she wouldn't blame me if I told my parents and she wants to do it herself.


----------



## JohnA

Choose. 

As I said to MovingFrwrd at this point on his thread. If you divorce it is on you at this point. Before she chose adultery she had a choice, she made it and the adultery is on her. Can the two of you make it work? Maybe, but until you chose the question is moot. Ir you chose does that mean forgive and forget. Agreeing to start reconcilation is agreeing to find the answer. It is accepting and only accepting to jointly discover if the two of you can discover if it is possible if this marriage can continue. 

There is a whole lot of pain for both of you is you try to reconcile. A lot of the issues of adultery will reside in a reconciled marriage. But right now only one thing needs to occur.

Choose


----------



## JohnA

We crossed posted. I and many others could have told you exactly what would be said. Get your own IC. 

What is her MC background? School? What is the suggested reading material from MC? Years experience? Field of expertise?


----------



## sokillme

JohnA said:


> Choose.


Nope detach. What's the rush? Get the emotions out of the decision. Far too many BS "choose" R and end up with a very bad deal and terrible regret. 

Also don't assume because you are fine now you are going to be fine a year from now, you are still just trying to recover from the shock.


----------



## cam42

I am leaning towards reconciliation but it would have to be on my terms. I would get to make all the decisions. But I can't offer her that yet until she proves with actions not words. Yeah I really do need an ic.


----------



## BioFury

cam42 said:


> I am leaning towards reconciliation but it would have to be on my terms. I would get to make all the decisions. But I can't offer her that yet until she proves with actions not words. Yeah I really do need an ic.


Sounds like you're on a good path. Keep your eyes open.


----------



## TX-SC

cam42 said:


> I am leaning towards reconciliation but it would have to be on my terms. I would get to make all the decisions. But I can't offer her that yet until she proves with actions not words. Yeah I really do need an ic.


You are doing well Cam.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


----------



## *Deidre*

cam42 said:


> I am leaning towards reconciliation but it would have to be on my terms. I would get to make all the decisions. But I can't offer her that yet until she proves with actions not words. Yeah I really do need an ic.


What do you mean that you'll make all the decisions? I ask because if your marriage is going to be you dictating how everything goes, then why would you want to be in a marriage that you can't trust your partner to make decisions, also? Maybe this is all too soon to tell.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

cam42 said:


> I am leaning towards reconciliation but it would have to be on my terms. I would get to make all the decisions. But I can't offer her that yet until she proves with actions not words. Yeah I really do need an ic.


Cam, you can do it. I think you are handling everything well. You are 100% correct that is should be on your terms. In order for it to work, it MUST be that way. Your wife is coming around and her eyes are now opened to the damage she has done. You most likely have not yet seen true remorse, but I am pretty sure you will shortly. I am proud for you as you have handled this situation extremely well. You are in the drivers seat. She knows that her fate is in your hands. Regardless of what she did treat her with respect. This will get to her more than you can realize. It is sort of reverse psychology, as she does not expect or think she deserves it. It emphasizes your strength. 

Now for your 2x4. I still am of the opinion she needs to leave the house and give you space to think and recover as well as experience what it may be like should you go the D route. 

You are a good and decent man.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

*Deidre* said:


> What do you mean that you'll make all the decisions? I ask because if your marriage is going to be you dictating how everything goes, then why would you want to be in a marriage that you can't trust your partner to make decisions, also? Maybe this is all too soon to tell.


My dear lady if this old chivalrous jarhead may interject, for the moment it has to be his way. I have been in his shoes and it must be on his terms. I do not want to put words in Cam's mouth, but I do not think he meant going forward he would make all the decisions. He means during the implementation of the r, if I am interpreting this correctly from my own experience.
I think you are taking his comment out of the proper context.


----------



## ABHale

cam42 said:


> I went to her counselor with her. I think it was somewhat productive. She was actually able to talk without crying and I feel she conducted herself like an adult.
> 
> The counselor told me she talks a lot about me and the children then again she could just try to make her look good. I didn't have anything else to do and was curious if we could have productive discussions about our future.
> 
> I told her nothing is set in stone and to not get her hopes up. She said she's looking forward to spending her life with me or coparenting with me.
> 
> I've kinda developed a new attitude. I was always nice and did whatever she wanted. Now I just kind of do what I want and she seems to be receptive towards it. Feels like I'm in control. She basically does whatever I ask. Been reading no more mr nice guy and have a general idea on how to behave for this relationship or future ones.
> 
> She reads some stuff on SI and has multiple affair books. Told me all she wants to do is to do whatever makes me happy and the children happy.
> 
> What she did was disgusting and earth shattering. But I don't know I just feel better and more confident nowadays. Also told me she wouldn't blame me if I told my parents and she wants to do it herself.


I would recommend the last part here.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

cam42 said:


> I went to her counselor with her. I think it was somewhat productive. She was actually able to talk without crying and I feel she conducted herself like an adult.
> 
> The counselor told me she talks a lot about me and the children then again she could just try to make her look good. I didn't have anything else to do and was curious if we could have productive discussions about our future.
> 
> I told her nothing is set in stone and to not get her hopes up. She said she's looking forward to spending her life with me or coparenting with me.
> 
> I've kinda developed a new attitude. I was always nice and did whatever she wanted. Now I just kind of do what I want and she seems to be receptive towards it. Feels like I'm in control. She basically does whatever I ask. Been reading no more mr nice guy and have a general idea on how to behave for this relationship or future ones.
> 
> She reads some stuff on SI and has multiple affair books. Told me all she wants to do is to do whatever makes me happy and the children happy.
> 
> What she did was disgusting and earth shattering. But I don't know I just feel better and more confident nowadays. Also told me she wouldn't blame me if I told my parents and she wants to do it herself.


,
Cam let her tell your parents. This is part of her atonement for her transgressions against you and your family. She is taking ownership off what she did. Big time positive sign.


----------



## *Deidre*

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> My dear lady if this old chivalrous jarhead may interject, for the moment it has to be his way. I have been in his shoes and it must be on his terms. I do not want to put words in Cam's mouth, but I do not think he meant going forward he would make all the decisions. He means during the implementation of the r, if I am interpreting this correctly from my own experience.
> I think you are taking his comment out of the proper context.


ahhh! I see. That makes sense.


----------



## straightshooter

cam42 said:


> I am leaning towards reconciliation but it would have to be on my terms. I would get to make all the decisions. But I can't offer her that yet until she proves with actions not words. Yeah I really do need an ic.


Cam, 

Personally, I think you are doing pretty damm good without an IC. You have only been in tghe ****storm for a few weeks now, and you better get prepared for a long battle with yourself. I don't think anyone reading your comments would have bet that you were not leaning towards R, and that is OK, IF you can live with yourself and are not one of these guys who bites the bullet and lives a miserable R for the kids and family. As long as you are reading SI, you might want to have your wife read a thread by Waited Way to Long. You do not want to be him.

We all know the facts about what she did the night she asked you how she looked, and we all have our own interpretation of it, which vary widely. The real question has nothing to do with that, and that question is do you believe that if OM had wanted her to continue and or leave you for him would she have done either. Until you resolve your thoughts, not ours, on that one, your mind will never rest easy.

I'm going to say it again, because if your wife is reading SI and paying ANY attention to it, she should be coming clean on who knew at work, who knew of her girlfriends, and what these people who knew are saying to her. Do you really have to wonder everytime she leaves the house with a friend to go shopping if you are interaction or in the presence of someone who was complicit in what she was doing, and over six months, with the gilggling some of them knew, unles she was talking to OM right in front of you. With all the information you have uncovered, arent you even curious for some answers on that.????

Now, its pretty obvious that it is unlikely that your wife is going to go out and have sex with another man next week. Thats not your problem. Your problem is what happens if OM resurfaces. ??? You need to tell her what you expect. I think she will believe you that it will be a deal breaker breaking NC again, but she needs a clear explanation from you on what is to be done and what is not to be done.

Now Cam, you've been hearing a lot about the word remorse. Some have offered to PM you what their WW did that showed remorse. I am going to put it out there for you on publically here what my wife did. Now the betrayal was different and this is not about me or her adultery so I won't bore you. I went what some would call nuclear from the beginning but that also is not the point. This is what remorse over time looks like:
(1) My wife voluntarily and without hesitation participated in outing the two OM to their spouses. 
(2) My wife on her own came up with a list of polygraph examiners, and every few months always asks if Im OK and offers to do a poly since she knows with my travel and her not working she has a lot of free time
(3) My wife did not cheat on a GNO, but when she goes out with friends, she drives so that she can leave if they start socializing with other men at a bar or club
(4) My wife sends me love letters on e mail almost daily when I travel, and I am over two years out
(5) My wife keeps a journal and invites me to read it with her about how much she loves me and is so grateful for the chance at R that she got.
(6) My wife never once in over two years ever made a statement wondering why I may not be totally over it.
(7) My wife offered a post nup on her own ( which I refused), and all she asked for was a roof over her head. We are quite affluent so she has no worries. She would still not have to work if we D'd but the offer was there.
(8) My wife after D Day on her own bought a GPS and wants me to know where she is, especially when I am travelling. Could she still cheat. Sure. But we are talking here about remorseful action
(9) My wife turns down a lot of outings overnight with her girlfriends ( none of whom had a clue of what she was doing). I did not demand this because I know these women and she did not cheat at any girls outings, and she has had many chances.

Now I could continue to go on but will not. Now your wife does not have to do all these things, but I just wanted to share with you what your wife should be thinking of some on her own . I put this to you so you can understand why some of us are not that impressed with the tears. That is not remorse and she is NOT THERE YET. And at this point, she is the one who should still be giving answers to you that are more thoughtful than just making statements ragging on herself looking for pity. Any timelines discussed should be YOU getting imtlines from her that answer every one of your questions, and answering them as many times as you want the answer.

I am concerned for you because she obviously wants this over and done with quickly, just like she wanted to move back in quickly so she could be in control of the narrative. You kind of upset that apple cart by filing for divorce. She does not get to be impatient. 

Once you passed from the denial stage to the angry stage you made some very good decision on your own. My wife screwed two OM from ****** ******* site and did a threesome twice with OM2 and his friend. Some would say that is worse than what your wife did, but she did it when I was in most cases a thousand miles away and actually never faced me in person for at least 24 hours. She did not parade out the door looking gorgeous and ask me on the way to meet her boyfriend. Which is worse?? Who the hell knows. It both sucks. The point is EVBERYONE here is relating to you through their own eyes. Contrary to what some think, that does not make those with a different point of view "bitter barbarians".

Unless she screws up again in the near future here, you are most likely going to R. It's pretty clear you already know why she did it. You said it. Bored with married life and wanted excitement. Don't dig yourself a whole looking for deep rooted problems that do not exist. She is not a serial cheater. The polygraph test verified that.

Sorry for the long post. Wish you well.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I stopped posting because I can no longer stand the R vs D cliques and anger. 

Remember one thing, you still get to make a choice no matter who likes it or not. If you decide R isn't for you, you are not a bad person if you gave it a real try. If you decide to R, you are not a push over if you gave it a real try. Only you know what you really want and it will take some time.


----------



## drifting on

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> My dear lady if this old chivalrous jarhead may interject, for the moment it has to be his way. I have been in his shoes and it must be on his terms. I do not want to put words in Cam's mouth, but I do not think he meant going forward he would make all the decisions. He means during the implementation of the r, if I am interpreting this correctly from my own experience.
> I think you are taking his comment out of the proper context.




QFT. I had to have this going forward, but I did allow her to make suggestions. When offering reconciliation you are still way to soon from her poor decision making to allow her decisions. She could have made two very important decisions and failed on both. Her first decision to make was to end the affair, she didn't, she failed. Her second chance was to not break no contact, she did, then didn't tell Cam, so again fail and fail. Her decision making at this point in time is null and void basically. How could you ever trust she would make the right decision right now. 

In the future, of course she would be able to make decisions in the future, once she has shown she can make a good decision. There are many decisions she can be making at this point that show she is for the marriage. There are many decisions she could show that would prove the opposite also. The key is to watch her actions, and watch her decisions. Don't forget Cam, you still need the list of friends, family, or coworkers who knew of the affair.


----------



## sokillme

straightshooter said:


> Cam,
> 
> Personally, I think you are doing pretty damm good without an IC. You have only been in tghe ****storm for a few weeks now, and you better get prepared for a long battle with yourself. I don't think anyone reading your comments would have bet that you were not leaning towards R, and that is OK, IF you can live with yourself and are not one of these guys who bites the bullet and lives a miserable R for the kids and family. As long as you are reading SI, you might want to have your wife read a thread by Waited Way to Long. You do not want to be him.
> 
> We all know the facts about what she did the night she asked you how she looked, and we all have our own interpretation of it, which vary widely. The real question has nothing to do with that, and that question is do you believe that if OM had wanted her to continue and or leave you for him would she have done either. Until you resolve your thoughts, not ours, on that one, your mind will never rest easy.
> 
> I'm going to say it again, because if your wife is reading SI and paying ANY attention to it, she should be coming clean on who knew at work, who knew of her girlfriends, and what these people who knew are saying to her. Do you really have to wonder everytime she leaves the house with a friend to go shopping if you are interaction or in the presence of someone who was complicit in what she was doing, and over six months, with the gilggling some of them knew, unles she was talking to OM right in front of you. With all the information you have uncovered, arent you even curious for some answers on that.????
> 
> Now, its pretty obvious that it is unlikely that your wife is going to go out and have sex with another man next week. Thats not your problem. Your problem is what happens if OM resurfaces. ??? You need to tell her what you expect. I think she will believe you that it will be a deal breaker breaking NC again, but she needs a clear explanation from you on what is to be done and what is not to be done.
> 
> Now Cam, you've been hearing a lot about the word remorse. Some have offered to PM you what their WW did that showed remorse. I am going to put it out there for you on publically here what my wife did. Now the betrayal was different and this is not about me or her adultery so I won't bore you. I went what some would call nuclear from the beginning but that also is not the point. This is what remorse over time looks like:
> (1) My wife voluntarily and without hesitation participated in outing the two OM to their spouses.
> (2) My wife on her own came up with a list of polygraph examiners, and every few months always asks if Im OK and offers to do a poly since she knows with my travel and her not working she has a lot of free time
> (3) My wife did not cheat on a GNO, but when she goes out with friends, she drives so that she can leave if they start socializing with other men at a bar or club
> (4) My wife sends me love letters on e mail almost daily when I travel, and I am over two years out
> (5) My wife keeps a journal and invites me to read it with her about how much she loves me and is so grateful for the chance at R that she got.
> (6) My wife never once in over two years ever made a statement wondering why I may not be totally over it.
> (7) My wife offered a post nup on her own ( which I refused), and all she asked for was a roof over her head. We are quite affluent so she has no worries. She would still not have to work if we D'd but the offer was there.
> (8) My wife after D Day on her own bought a GPS and wants me to know where she is, especially when I am travelling. Could she still cheat. Sure. But we are talking here about remorseful action
> (9) My wife turns down a lot of outings overnight with her girlfriends ( none of whom had a clue of what she was doing). I did not demand this because I know these women and she did not cheat at any girls outings, and she has had many chances.
> 
> Now I could continue to go on but will not. Now your wife does not have to do all these things, but I just wanted to share with you what your wife should be thinking of some on her own . I put this to you so you can understand why some of us are not that impressed with the tears. That is not remorse and she is NOT THERE YET. And at this point, she is the one who should still be giving answers to you that are more thoughtful than just making statements ragging on herself looking for pity. Any timelines discussed should be YOU getting imtlines from her that answer every one of your questions, and answering them as many times as you want the answer.
> 
> I am concerned for you because she obviously wants this over and done with quickly, just like she wanted to move back in quickly so she could be in control of the narrative. You kind of upset that apple cart by filing for divorce. She does not get to be impatient.
> 
> Once you passed from the denial stage to the angry stage you made some very good decision on your own. My wife screwed two OM from ****** ******* site and did a threesome twice with OM2 and his friend. Some would say that is worse than what your wife did, but she did it when I was in most cases a thousand miles away and actually never faced me in person for at least 24 hours. She did not parade out the door looking gorgeous and ask me on the way to meet her boyfriend. Which is worse?? Who the hell knows. It both sucks. The point is EVBERYONE here is relating to you through their own eyes. Contrary to what some think, that does not make those with a different point of view "bitter barbarians".
> 
> Unless she screws up again in the near future here, you are most likely going to R. It's pretty clear you already know why she did it. You said it. Bored with married life and wanted excitement. Don't dig yourself a whole looking for deep rooted problems that do not exist. She is not a serial cheater. The polygraph test verified that.
> 
> Sorry for the long post. Wish you well.


:crying:


----------



## SunCMars

cam42 said:


> I am leaning towards reconciliation but it would have to be on my terms. I would get to make all the decisions. But I can't offer her that yet until she proves with actions not words. Yeah* I really do need an ic.*


As disrespectful and goofy as it sounds.........SO DO WE!

Her spell knows no boundaries...


----------



## ConanHub

drifting on said:


> Cam42
> 
> As hard as this is to tell you, your wife will go through many phases in the next six months. First and foremost you have to let her grieve the loss of OM, it sucks and I don't totally understand it fully. But every good therapist will tell you if she doesn't grieve this loss it will lead to more issues. Allow her to grieve, don't comfort her is what you need to do here.
> 
> Your wife is feeling shame and humiliation for her affair. This does not mean she feels remorse or empathy, in fact she can't if she still has feelings for OM. This will take some but she should be over OM in the first six months. I would not have sex with her at this time, it will only create more issues. Her actions during this time and while grieving should be to heal the marriage. It is way to early for her to fully understand what she is facing in her attempts to help you just to feel safe.
> 
> One thing to keep in mind, the pain your feeling is probably the worst pain you've ever felt. You will lean towards divorce and reconciliation during this time. But a decision does not need to be made this very moment in time. Starting the divorce proceedings is to protect you solely, it's not meant to punish. In six months you may decide to divorce, you may decide to reconcile, only you know your situation best and what you can move past.


I would not give a violent person six seconds to let go of a knife held to the throat of myself or other family members much less, six months.

What she did was violence to her husband and children. Having good feelings about murdering your marriage is demented to begin with and should be immediately shed when a light is shown on the infidelity.

Love can turn to hate in an instant given the right circumstances and it should. If someone is deranged enough to enjoy harming their family then that is certainly bad enough. If, after the infidelity is revealed, they still feel something good about harming their family, they aren't close to being fit for any relationship more than required by an exchange of $20 and some grunting in an alley.

I would not likely stay married to a cheater but it would absolutely seal her fate if she needed to "grieve" losing someone she was stabbing me in the heart with.


----------



## eric1

You will be able to fully decide on R if she is remorseful, her remorse actions in sum increase your confidence she'll be able to improve herself so that this doesn't happen again and, most importantly, once you have a 'reasonably bright' outlook on if you'll ever be able to trust your wife you'll need to decide if you can get over this.

You're not ready to decide much of anything right now IMHO. It's OK to build towards R but just make her aware that you really have no control over it. It is all on her actions now and if you can get over her actions then. 

Her exposing to parents voluntarily is a step towards remorse. Her breaking NC was not. Her reading material on her own is a sign. Her still covering her girlfriends who were involved is not.


----------



## Graywolf2

cam42 said:


> I was always nice and did whatever she wanted. Now I just kind of do what I want and she seems to be receptive towards it. Feels like I'm in control. She basically does whatever I ask.


She’s receptive to the new you because she has to be. You hold all the cards now. But that will not last. As the years go by in R you will lose more and more cards until one day you will be the bad guy for even bringing up her affair.

I know that I sound like a broken record but if you divorce her now you will be able to keep more cards. If what she has been saying is true she should be very happy with divorce if it’s attached to staying in the house with the family and a chance to R.

I may be atypical but divorcing my WW would greatly improve my chances of R.


----------



## drifting on

Graywolf2 said:


> She’s receptive to the new you because she has to be. You hold all the cards now. But that will not last. As the years go by in R you will lose more and more cards until one day you will be the bad guy for even bringing up her affair.
> 
> I know that I sound like a broken record but if you divorce her now you will be able to keep more cards. If what she has been saying is true she should be very happy with divorce if it’s attached to staying in the house with the family and a chance to R.
> 
> I may be atypical but divorcing my WW would greatly improve my chances of R.




If, and I say if, Cam decides to reconcile he will hold most of the cards. As you go through reconciliation many things are changed, after time the person who had the most cards relinquishes some cards until the partners are equal. If a marriage is had with one having more cards (or power) the marriage is doomed for failure. It's a breeding ground for co-dependency, and can cause resentment that you can't do certain things. By that I don't mean an affair but instead meeting with friends or other things. 

Both partners need to be equal, both need to make decisions and place input if there is a disagreement. The problem resolved for the better of the marriage, and yes sometimes making a sacrifice. Remember this is far down the road in reconciliation, not when you first start. My wife and I make decisions together, sometimes it's what I want or what she wants, but we discuss this with communication free of anger and defensiveness. I find that because she will make a sacrifice it is easier for me to make a sacrifice. It's working together, keeping the balance even, and doing the best for the marriage.


----------



## Bibi1031

ConanHub said:


> I would not likely stay married to a cheater but it would absolutely seal her fate if she needed to "grieve" losing someone she was stabbing me in the heart with.


What @driftingon said is true in regards to grieving. Our therapist told us that. We attempted reconciliation and that is when my X broke the NC rule at the one month mark. His OW made contact and they told each other how much they still missed each other. I couldn't deal with that because I deserved better and it was not fair for any of us to be forced into a marriage killed by my WS loving a third party. 

That **** is just wrong and it looks a lot like plan B. I ain't no ones plan B. I was better off alone and time proved my decision right. X was just doing damage control. His feelings for me as a wife were long gone. His love belonged to another.

The worst part is that there are no guarantees that the WS will get those feelings of love back. Most just settle. I don't think anyone should settle whether you are the cheater or the one cheated on. It's simply messed up. We were born free to love and be with who loves us.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Cam, I am having deja vu all over again, reading some posts on this thread. Posts are somewhat similar to what my advice that was given. 
Infidelity sucks, no easy way to say it. Your wife f'd up big time as mine did. You still love your wife I gather from your posts. I think You are at the point where if she shows remorse, that is, true remorse, reconciliation is a viable option. My advice to you once you decide r is for you is that you must separate the sin from the sinner. Hate the sin, but love the sinner. 

As FArside referred to it as the " torch and pitchfork brigade". I am assuming from your posts your WW is like my FWW, once reality hit her has had her o **** moment, and now is seeing her world as she knew it slip from her grasp. Your kids despise what she did, my adult children despised what my wife did. My wife as yours wants to do, took it upon herself to visit my parents and confess what she did. Once she did this, I was certain remorse had set in and she realize how she almost totally destroyed me and the relationship with our two wonderful children.
Your wife doing this is a HUGE step forward. 

Can you have a better "new marriage"? Yes you can. Will it be an easy path? Not likely. Will it be rewarding in the long run? Yes, if you love her, and she is truly remorseful. I have a feeling your wife loved you through it all, but something was missing. Not from you, but from her. I think she was focused on herself and not good at communicating with you. Now, you are in control. Use this control to get what you want going forward from your relationship Avoid the feelings that you have to get even. That was the hardest part for me as some of my pals were advocating a revenge affair. No way would I degrade myself to do something as vile as she did to me. You have done likewise, staying true and resolute to your vows.

I guess to make a long story short, you can have a successful R. You have to be the leader in this operation as you are strong and she is weak. I will bet you $100 she sees how strong you are now. Take her by the hand when you are ready and show her your strength. I think there is a golden opportunity for you two to have a strong marriage in time.

Just my two cents. Never say never.


----------



## Evinrude58

I would like to know what she did to make anyone think she really loves Cam.
That is the most important thing.
I hope that was a polygraph question: do you still love the OM?

I don't think she loves Cam. If she did she wouldn't have been caught holding hands with another dude she'd been banging for 6 months. 

She was dumped and doesn't want to lose her nest.

She's doing whatever it takes to manipulate him into letting this slide and not divorcing.
When everything settles down, she will feel the same way that led up to this----Cam will then go through this all over again. Except he next time she will have an exit strategy and Cam will get screwed in the divorce. I still say divorce her now while you can get a fair divorce. Then, when the heat of legal trouble is off, you can reconcile if you want.

And let's face it, does this woman ever deserve to be married to CAn again? I don't think so. Not after what she has done.


----------



## Evinrude58

Graywolf2 said:


> She’s receptive to the new you because she has to be. You hold all the cards now. But that will not last. As the years go by in R you will lose more and more cards until one day you will be the bad guy for even bringing up her affair.
> 
> I know that I sound like a broken record but if you divorce her now you will be able to keep more cards. If what she has been saying is true she should be very happy with divorce if it’s attached to staying in the house with the family and a chance to R.
> 
> I may be atypical but divorcing my WW would greatly improve my chances of R.



Didn't read this before posting, but totally agree.


----------



## ConanHub

Evinrude58 said:


> I would like to know what she did to make anyone think she really loves Cam.
> That is the most important thing.
> I hope that was a polygraph question: do you still love the OM?
> 
> I don't think she loves Cam. If she did she wouldn't have been caught holding hands with another dude she'd been banging for 6 months.
> 
> She was dumped and doesn't want to lose her nest.
> 
> She's doing whatever it takes to manipulate him into letting this slide and not divorcing.
> When everything settles down, she will feel the same way that led up to this----Cam will then go through this all over again. Except he next time she will have an exit strategy and Cam will get screwed in the divorce. I still say divorce her now while you can get a fair divorce. Then, when the heat of legal trouble is off, you can reconcile if you want.
> 
> And let's face it, does this woman ever deserve to be married to CAn again? I don't think so. Not after what she has done.


What she deserves is a swift kick in the ass and to live the rest of her life as a fvck toy for pathetic assh0les like the wimp she was being a free wh0re for.

Everyone is wired a little differently though. This disgusting tart should be yesterday's news in my book but cam is the one to make the choice on that.

She deserves to eat sh1t. She is being treated better than she deserves and that is the BS's choice.


----------



## sokillme

Evinrude58 said:


> I would like to know what she did to make anyone think she really loves Cam..


People who chose R in their life are going to default to R for everyone as you can see on this thread.

I think men in general are very disposed to this kind of thinking. It goes with the whole white knight thing. It is also readily exploited.

It's almost as if these women knew ahead of time that they would be able to get away with it. And they were right.


----------



## cam42

She isn't getting anyway with anything. My teenage daughters have confided in me that although they love their mother they don't see themselves looking at her the same ever again. They held her in such high regard. 

Her family is pissed, she told my family today and they're pissed. Everyone is mad at her really. If we R she has to deal with the fact that I will never look at her the same as I used to, our old marriage is dead and we would be building a new one. 

People here have suggested a postnup, I told her I wanted one and she agreed. Told me the only thing she would want 50/50 on is custody, she will let me have the majority of our funds and assets. I don't think I should pass an opportunity like this up. 

I told her she's free to walk out the door and I won't hate her, if she doesn't feel like she can behave like a loving wife again then I don't want to hold her back. She said our marriage is what she wants but knows it's not her choice. 

We will continue sleeping in separate beds, I had sex with her last night, I had too much to drink not an excuse though. Didn't feel any emotional connection, just needed to let out some steam we did not even kiss during it and I will not look outside of the marriage. Even told her to go to her own bed after. I'm guarding my heart heavy. She has kept her distance like I asked, I just went to her room and told her to follow. 

hard having a HL and being around this female that I am attracted too is rough. So no she isn't getting away with anything. Everyone is pissed at her. I am admittedly not being that nice to her and she has agreeed to a post nup. Not being mean to her at all, but I'm guarding my heart here.


----------



## sokillme

cam42 said:


> She isn't getting anyway with anything. My teenage daughters have confided in me that although they love their mother they don't see themselves looking at her the same ever again. They held her in such high regard.
> 
> Her family is pissed, she told my family today and they're pissed. Everyone is mad at her really. If we R she has to deal with the fact that I will never look at her the same as I used to, our old marriage is dead and we would be building a new one.
> 
> People here have suggested a postnup, I told her I wanted one and she agreed. Told me the only thing she would want 50/50 on is custody, she will let me have the majority of our funds and assets. I don't think I should pass an opportunity like this up.
> 
> I told her she's free to walk out the door and I won't hate her, if she doesn't feel like she can behave like a loving wife again then I don't want to hold her back. She said our marriage is what she wants but knows it's not her choice.
> 
> We will continue sleeping in separate beds, I had sex with her last night, I had too much to drink not an excuse though. Didn't feel any emotional connection, just needed to let out some steam we did not even kiss during it and I will not look outside of the marriage. Even told her to go to her own bed after. I'm guarding my heart heavy. She has kept her distance like I asked, I just went to her room and told her to follow.
> 
> hard having a HL and being around this female that I am attracted too is rough. So no she isn't getting away with anything. Everyone is pissed at her. I am admittedly not being that nice to her and she has agreeed to a post nup. Not being mean to her at all, but I'm guarding my heart here.


I'm glad to hear it. She deserves to feel the pain of her actions. You don't.

Better make sure she fixes herself. You can't white knuckle the kind of changes she needs to make. Right now she is in damage control and has her shame and fear of losing everything to motivate her. This will go away and then she will still need to do the right thing.


----------



## farsidejunky

Cam, your treatment of her, while understandable, can be a potential problem for you.

Do only that with which you can still comfortably view your own reflection in the mirror.

It is good that she confessed to both of your parents. They will forgive her in time provided she works to mend fences.

Take your time, brother. You do not need to reconcile. Hell, it may not be in your DNA to do so. Either way, things are now on your time.

Did you identify any toxic friends/co-workers yet?


----------



## stillthinking

> People here have suggested a postnup, I told her I wanted one and she agreed. Told me the only thing she would want 50/50 on is custody, she will let me have the majority of our funds and assets. *I don't think I should pass an opportunity like this up*.


Hell yes. Strike while the iron is hot. Get the postnup locked down ASAP. No matter how this goes in the future you deserve the majority of what you have built. You need to push for your best interests while she is on her heels.


----------



## straightshooter

cam42 said:


> She isn't getting anyway with anything. My teenage daughters have confided in me that although they love their mother they don't see themselves looking at her the same ever again. They held her in such high regard.
> 
> Her family is pissed, she told my family today and they're pissed. Everyone is mad at her really. If we R she has to deal with the fact that I will never look at her the same as I used to, our old marriage is dead and we would be building a new one.
> 
> People here have suggested a postnup, I told her I wanted one and she agreed. Told me the only thing she would want 50/50 on is custody, she will let me have the majority of our funds and assets. I don't think I should pass an opportunity like this up.
> 
> I told her she's free to walk out the door and I won't hate her, if she doesn't feel like she can behave like a loving wife again then I don't want to hold her back. She said our marriage is what she wants but knows it's not her choice.
> 
> We will continue sleeping in separate beds, I had sex with her last night, I had too much to drink not an excuse though. Didn't feel any emotional connection, just needed to let out some steam we did not even kiss during it and I will not look outside of the marriage. Even told her to go to her own bed after. I'm guarding my heart heavy. She has kept her distance like I asked, I just went to her room and told her to follow.
> 
> hard having a HL and being around this female that I am attracted too is rough. So no she isn't getting away with anything. Everyone is pissed at her. I am admittedly not being that nice to her and she has agreeed to a post nup. Not being mean to her at all, but I'm guarding my heart here.


Cam,

The above is one reason she should not have moved back in so quick. You did not have time to process through things and it is totally understandable for you to feel guarded, treating her like a "sex surrogate" is not the long term answer. And I am sure no one needs to tell you the booze ain't the best thing for your judgement so I hope you can stay off that.

As far as post nups, if you go that route I would make sure you check with a real good attorney to insure that in your state they hold up in court. But if it gives you a feeling of peace of mind not a bad idea.

The fact that YOU recognize the old marriage is dead is actually positive. Too many try to hope that the old marriage can be gone back to. And only time is going to determine if you can participate in the new marriage. 

There is no doubt that she has now felt some real life consequences. But So Kill Me has it kind of correct. She either marches to your tune right now or hits the pavement, but there is no boyfriend option right now so the $64,000 question is it is because she gets it or because her back is against the wall. We all know people in self preservation mode will do and say anything. That is where she is right now. No doubt she is going to agree with what you want but what the issues is is for you to believe WHY she is now totally so compliant and just a short time ago was denying and lying to you, and breaking NC, I am not a big believer in this "fog" ****. You proved how quickly that apparently goes away once they are looking at divorce papers.

The reason I keep going back to her "girlfriends" or work colleagues ( and so do others), is because if her friends knew then that means they certainly know now the status of her marriage. I think someone else just told you this but the narrative out there now, supported by facts , is that most men DO NOT walk on the first infidelity although we all say we would. You can count on the fact that if her friends know, eventually they are going to be telling her you need to get over it and that your current treatment of her is "not fair". Of course, these are probably the same folks who were giggling with her on the phone pumping her for juicy details. Now if you were able to determine that NO ONE knew, that to me would indicate to me that she was really ashamed at what she was doing and kept it all to herself. That does not seem likely here.

Lastly, have you spoken to OM wife to see where his ass is these days. That is something you will also have to live with knowing he is out there and NOT knowing exactly what their conversation was when they broke NC. I do not think too many folks here believe it was just a businesslike discussion and not a tearful good bye with other stuff you probably would not be too pleased hearing. Have you asked that???

Cam, her family is pissed and is going to in a short time be moving towards you burying the hatchet so to speak because their daughter is not going to be a real happy camper for a while. Your family my guess will also be pushing for R. It happens most of the time. They grandparents do not want the grandkids lives disrupted. But they do not live the mind movies.

Believe it or not, you are holding up well, and are a really rational and strong guy. Do what you need on your timetable and do not be pressed either way. Giving up your emotions and heart to her is not going to happen any time soon. That is the problem in this crap. D is easier, believe it or not. R is the decision to wrestle with your inner self for years. You're still in the first series of downs in this "football" game. Too early to tell.


----------



## NoChoice

cam42 said:


> Was an interesting night yesterday, so she took another poly and did indeed pass the questions, no contact was over the phone, he initiated, it wasn't talking about leaving their spouses. Well we were all watching tv last night and all the kids went upstairs. She has been reading some stuff on SI and said we should atleast start being intimate again no strings attached. So she took that as an initiative to try to get me off, told her to stop and she did.
> 
> I told her to stop using sex to get too me. She said sorry but we haven't done it awhile and if there's no strings attached it is okay, I don't deserve you making love to me yet. Atleast let me get you off. So we both high libido before this, obviously she was one of the reasons I'm here.. So I made the mistake of taking her offer. After she was done she asked if I could come to IC with her and also do MC and I said I'm sorry but I don't know if we're ready for that yet cause I don't know if we're going to reconcile.
> 
> The tears are starting to form. She told me that everyday she looks at herself in the morning in absolute disgust, she said she thinks of me and the kids hurting over her affair multiple hours a day. She has accepted that she will never forgive herself. She is crying now and telling me not to feel bad for her, she hates herself and she hates what she did. That she's a stupid cheating ***** who treated the best thing in her life like garbage. She said she doesn't know why she can't talk about this without crying she then just starts crying into my lap calling herself a selfish ***** a homewrecking life ruining *****.
> 
> Also told me that please know even if you decide to divorce me I will always love you, I will cherish our kids and every memory you gave me, you have made my life amazing beyond words and if you leave me I want you to know you're an wonderful husband, father and man. She gave me a hug and just went upstairs.
> 
> When she left I just started to cry, I'm angry. Why does she say all these things yet she was dating this other man for six months, I want to believe she's sincere I really do. I'm just so afraid of being hurt again. The encounter lasted about an hour but that's the short summary.





cam42 said:


> The whole asking me how she looked before she went to go see the OM. We talked about that when I went to that IC with her. Basically she said in her words "in her ****ed up and selfish mind I somehow thought that was perfectly okay to ask because you weren't aware of my betrayal, the last thing I was thinking about was your feelings and saying sorry is a complete understatement. But I'm absolutely sorry"
> 
> She came to me today and told me she wanted to ask me something, I said ok. She thinks I have been suffering in silence and says she wants to do whatever she can to help me because I haven't been saying much. She's telling me maybe professional help will be good? She said she's worried about me because I have been losing weight from the stress. I told her I'm fine and just to not worry about it.
> 
> Throughout this I haven't really had an appetite, it's starting to come back now. My wife told me she thinks we should follow a timeline of how long it takes for us to reconcile. She told me that recovering from infidelity could take up to five years, but that she would work for 100 if she had too. I kinda laughed at that.
> 
> She just said she's worried about me and wants me to go to the doctor. That even if I divorce her she is still going to care about my health and well being. I guess that's good to hear.
> 
> I told her I need space from her so no more attempted initiation of sex or anything, no more hugging. She said she will stop and admits she doesnt know whar should be doing. She's now aware of the term wayward spouse. Told me she's read threads about betrayed spouses and feels horrible for how much she's hurt me.
> 
> She said she will always want to renconcile no matter what, she loves me and the kids more than anything else in the world. She just wants all of us to be happy someday.
> 
> Still so confused ugh.


OP,
I have the answers to all of your questions regarding your wife's, my wife's and virtually every other spouses betrayal. Do you really want to hear it, can you handle the truth? Think on this for a moment and ask yourself what kind of person betrays another. Many here believe your W to be nefarious, manipulative, ruthlessly cunning, maliciously disrespectful, diabolically clever and the list goes on. She is none of these. If she had the intellect to be any of the above or any other synonym thereof, she would not have allowed herself to be found out and if her A was discovered she would have a plan in place for that contingency. She would not be floundering but rather executing her carefully considered damage control plan. She is not.

Let me ask you do you consider your W to be a degenerate, a reprobate, a person suffering from severe psychological disorders? Is she prone to psychopathic behavior? If so, then she needs help far beyond anything you can offer her and you would be well advised to get you and your children away from her as soon as possible. If not, then there is only one other conclusion that explains all of her, and many others, behavior. Your wife simply does not have sufficient intellect to carefully and objectively think things through, in other words, she and so many other WSs are idiots, morons, dullards, simpletons or whichever other descriptive word you choose to use to describe someone incapable of carefully reasoned thought.

You see, your W has the mental capability, especially regarding emotions and emotional considerations, of that of a 7-8 year old child. I ask that you carefully consider what I am saying. Look at your wife when she has to deal with "grown up" situations such as the one she finds herself in presently. Is she capable and self assured or is she confused and scared? The former is the response of an adult the latter, a child. It is not possible for you to have any understanding of her thought process since you do not think as a child. Think back to dealing with your daughters when they were 7-8 years old, did they understand reason and logic, did they rationally think through their every action? Of course not and neither did/does your wife.

If you answered no to her being psychopathic then explain how she could betray you, her children, the family and HERSELF. She has caused HERSELF severe anguish and heartache, ridicule, scorn, condemnation and forever altered her relationship with her daughters and for what?? sex?? A fleeting, temporary sensation of pleasure. Is it worth it to a reasoned rational person to forgo all else for sex? No, it is not. By the way, do you know why it always comes down to sex? Why not thoughtful intellectual connection or deep emotional bonding, why does it always boil down to sex? Because that is all people of limited intellect understand, physical pleasure. What did she offer you (tempt you with if you prefer)?? Sex. Why? because that is all a child can offer, the physical pleasure of sex. Is sex what you need most right now? No, but she cannot understand the deep mental anguish you feel because she is not capable of it and therefore is totally lost as to what you need most, so she offers what her limited intellect has to offer, sex.

If she were cunning and calculated and ruthless then explain why was she was so blatantly overt with her A? Going out with the OM in public places where she could be easily spotted and making no effort to hide or even mask the obvious, in fact holding hands?? Does this sound like the actions of a shrewd, cunning strategist?? Why did she ask you how she looked before meeting with the OM. Why does a 7 year old child scream in rage that they hate their parent and wishes they were dead? Do they understand the ramifications to their life if their parent dies? Are they ready to support themselves? Do they feel the heartfelt pain the parent feels at hearing those words? Have they thought out their remark carefully? No, they are 7 and not given to rational, reasoned thought. She wanted to know if she looked good, it is as simple as that. I am sorry to say that the effects to you were not in her thought process any more than her children, parents, in laws or anyone else.

So then, when you ask your wife "how could you ask me how you looked when you knew you were going to meet the OM" and she answers "I don't know" or "I didn't think about it", believe her, she does not know because only someone with the enough intellect to think this situation through would have an answer to that question. I sincerely hope that you can see the truth in what I am telling you because it is the reality of your and my and countless others situation. To expect more from her is to invite disappointment. So, what you must realize is that your wife may truly be sorry for her deeds but only inasmuch as she is capable of feeling sorrow, shame and remorse. Anything beyond that is beyond her ability and you must understand that going forward. She may indeed be capable of modifying her behavior but it will never be from a position of true, deep understanding but rather because that is what she was supposed to do according to her IC, the books she has read and the scorn and disappointment shown toward her because of her deeds. She, like a child, must be told and made to understand, from some outside source (IC, books, etc.), why what she did was wrong and that her actions were not appropriate and how she should have handled the situation.

You are trying to understand the mind of a child using the cognition of an adult and what is causing you and me and so many others such confusion is understanding that physical maturity DOES NOT equal mental maturity. The body will grow and mature as the DNA dictates but the mind only responds and experiences growth from stimuli. People often refer to a person "not being wired that way" and that is actually quite accurate. The synaptic connections in the brain are indeed a network of contacts between neurons that could very well be seen as wiring. This "wiring" allows information (data) to be stored and transferred as necessary during thought and any limitations to this network has direct effect on the processed output (decisions, or choices if you prefer). Consider also that the synaptic development occurs from birth into the mid twenties so whatever development does not happen by then will not happen.

Think of it this way; my first computer was an old Atari tape driven machine with the ability to process 64 bits of information. As you can imagine the ability to write programs for this machine was severely limited as its processing power was minimal. As technology increased, the processors began to become more complex and capable of much higher data bit processing. We are biological machines and you could compare an infant to the old Atari, a toddler to the old 8080 processor, an adolescent to the 8086, a teenager to the Celeron or Pentium and an adult to the latest Xenon chip. So what do you think would happen if you tried to have an old 16 bit 8080 chip (child) run some of today's 32 or 64 bit software (adult)? It would fail and the corresponding output would be flawed. Just like your wife's "choice". I cannot say where she is along the "chip" progression but I can assure you that she is somewhere in the 8086 to Celeron range so to expect the processing output of a Xenon is delusional.

So, the choice you must make is do you want to be a quasi-parent for the remainder of your life with her. She may indeed never cheat again but since it is impossible to "train" someone in every aspect of "adult" relationships, she may falter in another area like finances for instance. Remember this however, I firmly believe that your wife cares for you and her family INASMUCH as she is capable of caring, which may represent less ability than you possess. It is obvious that you care for her a great deal.

Lastly, I do occasionally quote other posters when I feel their words have relevant truth or wisdom but I do not quote posters to rebut their opinion. Having a debate with other posters is not my purpose for posting here. It is not my place to debate them nor am I so inclined. My purpose here is to offer you as much knowledge and understanding as I can so that YOU can make the most informed decision possible that will best benefit YOU. Use what you feel is relevant and discard what you feel is not. Having said that I must comment on something I have read on this thread and a few others regarding advice given by a counselor or therapist and that is to allow the WS time to grieve the loss of their A and AP. I find this to be extremely troubling. Does one mourn the loss of a cancerous tumor? It is, after all, a part of your body but its effects are only destructive.

I find that advice akin to telling Jeffrey Dahmer that he should grieve the fact that he will never savor the delicious taste of human flesh again. It places an importance on the A and AP that it does not deserve. The A and the AP are wholly damaging, wholly destructive and have no place in a marriage and to advise one to mourn the loss of same I find borderline insane. To an underdeveloped, malleable intellect it lends credence and validity to something and someone where none is warranted. I would think it best to advise the WS to be glad that the disease was excised from their marriage, not to mourn its loss.

Again, all of the views expressed here are mine and I am not interested in debating them with other posters. Please use any of this that benefits you and discard the rest. I wish you good fortune.


----------



## curious234

I do not know why some posters keep going again and again back to her attitude during the affair. If those occurrences are unforgivable it is a straight D. Since it looks like Cam feels she has shown adequate remorse for what she has done hence his decision to reconcile people have to look forward. Like some said since Cam has decided to go in the way of R he should show some empathy which Ms. Cam will remember and be grateful. My opinion is he was a little harsh in the way he interacted with her during the intimacy. Only thing Ms. Cam has not done that Sussie had done is apologizing to OM's wife. She will do that too if Cam ask her.


----------



## ConanHub

I am of the same thought process as @NoChoice and tend to agree with his last post.

She can develop her mental/emotional strength and discipline but that often takes work that people simply lack the fortitude to implement.

While my thoughts are in kinship with @NoChoice my heart is ruthlessly barbaric.

OP. How do you feel about spanking?

At some point, if you decide towards R, spanking her ass purple may have beneficial effects and a form of release for both of you.

Just a thought from the dark corridors where "He" dwells.


----------



## TDSC60

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> I have the answers to all of your questions regarding your wife's, my wife's and virtually every other spouses betrayal. Do you really want to hear it, can you handle the truth? Think on this for a moment and ask yourself what kind of person betrays another. Many here believe your W to be nefarious, manipulative, ruthlessly cunning, maliciously disrespectful, diabolically clever and the list goes on. She is none of these. If she had the intellect to be any of the above or any other synonym thereof, she would not have allowed herself to be found out and if her A was discovered she would have a plan in place for that contingency. She would not be floundering but rather executing her carefully considered damage control plan. She is not.
> 
> Let me ask you do you consider your W to be a degenerate, a reprobate, a person suffering from severe psychological disorders? Is she prone to psychopathic behavior? If so, then she needs help far beyond anything you can offer her and you would be well advised to get you and your children away from her as soon as possible. If not, then there is only one other conclusion that explains all of her, and many others, behavior. Your wife simply does not have sufficient intellect to carefully and objectively think things through, in other words, she and so many other WSs are idiots, morons, dullards, simpletons or whichever other descriptive word you choose to use to describe someone incapable of carefully reasoned thought.
> 
> You see, your W has the mental capability, especially regarding emotions and emotional considerations, of that of a 7-8 year old child. I ask that you carefully consider what I am saying. Look at your wife when she has to deal with "grown up" situations such as the one she finds herself in presently. Is she capable and self assured or is she confused and scared? The former is the response of an adult the latter, a child. It is not possible for you to have any understanding of her thought process since you do not think as a child. Think back to dealing with your daughters when they were 7-8 years old, did they understand reason and logic, did they rationally think through their every action? Of course not and neither did/does your wife.
> 
> If you answered no to her being psychopathic then explain how she could betray you, her children, the family and HERSELF. She has caused HERSELF severe anguish and heartache, ridicule, scorn, condemnation and forever altered her relationship with her daughters and for what?? sex?? A fleeting, temporary sensation of pleasure. Is it worth it to a reasoned rational person to forgo all else for sex? No, it is not. By the way, do you know why it always comes down to sex? Why not thoughtful intellectual connection or deep emotional bonding, why does it always boil down to sex? Because that is all people of limited intellect understand, physical pleasure. What did she offer you (tempt you with if you prefer)?? Sex. Why? because that is all a child can offer, the physical pleasure of sex. Is sex what you need most right now? No, but she cannot understand the deep mental anguish you feel because she is not capable of it and therefore is totally lost as to what you need most, so she offers what her limited intellect has to offer, sex.
> 
> If she were cunning and calculated and ruthless then explain why was she was so blatantly overt with her A? Going out with the OM in public places where she could be easily spotted and making no effort to hide or even mask the obvious, in fact holding hands?? Does this sound like the actions of a shrewd, cunning strategist?? Why did she ask you how she looked before meeting with the OM. Why does a 7 year old child scream in rage that they hate their parent and wishes they were dead? Do they understand the ramifications to their life if their parent dies? Are they ready to support themselves? Do they feel the heartfelt pain the parent feels at hearing those words? Have they thought out their remark carefully? No, they are 7 and not given to rational, reasoned thought. She wanted to know if she looked good, it is as simple as that. I am sorry to say that the effects to you were not in her thought process any more than her children, parents, in laws or anyone else.
> 
> So then, when you ask your wife "how could you ask me how you looked when you knew you were going to meet the OM" and she answers "I don't know" or "I didn't think about it", believe her, she does not know because only someone with the enough intellect to think this situation through would have an answer to that question. I sincerely hope that you can see the truth in what I am telling you because it is the reality of your and my and countless others situation. To expect more from her is to invite disappointment. So, what you must realize is that your wife may truly be sorry for her deeds but only inasmuch as she is capable of feeling sorrow, shame and remorse. Anything beyond that is beyond her ability and you must understand that going forward. She may indeed be capable of modifying her behavior but it will never be from a position of true, deep understanding but rather because that is what she was supposed to do according to her IC, the books she has read and the scorn and disappointment shown toward her because of her deeds. She, like a child, must be told and made to understand, from some outside source (IC, books, etc.), why what she did was wrong and that her actions were not appropriate and how she should have handled the situation.
> 
> You are trying to understand the mind of a child using the cognition of an adult and what is causing you and me and so many others such confusion is understanding that physical maturity DOES NOT equal mental maturity. The body will grow and mature as the DNA dictates but the mind only responds and experiences growth from stimuli. People often refer to a person "not being wired that way" and that is actually quite accurate. The synaptic connections in the brain are indeed a network of contacts between neurons that could very well be seen as wiring. This "wiring" allows information (data) to be stored and transferred as necessary during thought and any limitations to this network has direct effect on the processed output (decisions, or choices if you prefer). Consider also that the synaptic development occurs from birth into the mid twenties so whatever development does not happen by then will not happen.
> 
> Think of it this way; my first computer was an old Atari tape driven machine with the ability to process 64 bits of information. As you can imagine the ability to write programs for this machine was severely limited as its processing power was minimal. As technology increased, the processors began to become more complex and capable of much higher data bit processing. We are biological machines and you could compare an infant to the old Atari, a toddler to the old 8080 processor, an adolescent to the 8086, a teenager to the Celeron or Pentium and an adult to the latest Xenon chip. So what do you think would happen if you tried to have an old 16 bit 8080 chip (child) run some of today's 32 or 64 bit software (adult)? It would fail and the corresponding output would be flawed. Just like your wife's "choice". I cannot say where she is along the "chip" progression but I can assure you that she is somewhere in the 8086 to Celeron range so to expect the processing output of a Xenon is delusional.
> 
> So, the choice you must make is do you want to be a quasi-parent for the remainder of your life with her. She may indeed never cheat again but since it is impossible to "train" someone in every aspect of "adult" relationships, she may falter in another area like finances for instance. Remember this however, I firmly believe that your wife cares for you and her family INASMUCH as she is capable of caring, which may represent less ability than you possess. It is obvious that you care for her a great deal.
> 
> Lastly, I do occasionally quote other posters when I feel their words have relevant truth or wisdom but I do not quote posters to rebut their opinion. Having a debate with other posters is not my purpose for posting here. It is not my place to debate them nor am I so inclined. My purpose here is to offer you as much knowledge and understanding as I can so that YOU can make the most informed decision possible that will best benefit YOU. Use what you feel is relevant and discard what you feel is not. Having said that I must comment on something I have read on this thread and a few others regarding advice given by a counselor or therapist and that is to allow the WS time to grieve the loss of their A and AP. I find this to be extremely troubling. Does one mourn the loss of a cancerous tumor? It is, after all, a part of your body but its effects are only destructive.
> 
> I find that advice akin to telling Jeffrey Dahmer that he should grieve the fact that he will never savor the delicious taste of human flesh again. It places an importance on the A and AP that it does not deserve. The A and the AP are wholly damaging, wholly destructive and have no place in a marriage and to advise one to mourn the loss of same I find borderline insane. To an underdeveloped, malleable intellect it lends credence and validity to something and someone where none is warranted. I would think it best to advise the WS to be glad that the disease was excised from their marriage, not to mourn its loss.
> 
> Again, all of the views expressed here are mine and I am not interested in debating them with other posters. Please use any of this that benefits you and discard the rest. I wish you good fortune.


I love your technical analogies. They are spot on.

To take it a step further - an Atari or Celeron processor cannot be "upgraded" to the most recent machine because the mother board cannot accommodate the "adult" processor. So can a WW change and begin to process info like an adult - probably not.


----------



## curious234

You may have seen this. It is amazing (and kind of funny when it is exposed) how women fall to the schemes of womanizers
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-does-not-know-if-she-wants-stay-married.html


----------



## GusPolinski

curious234 said:


> You may have seen this. It is amazing (and kind of funny when it is exposed) how women fall to the schemes of womanizers
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-does-not-know-if-she-wants-stay-married.html


Hopefully that guy wised up and kicked his idiot child-bride to the curb.


----------



## sokillme

curious234 said:


> I do not know why some posters keep going again and again back to her attitude during the affair. If those occurrences are unforgivable it is a straight D. Since it looks like Cam feels she has shown adequate remorse for what she has done hence his decision to reconcile people have to look forward. Like some said since Cam has decided to go in the way of R he should show some empathy which Ms. Cam will remember and be grateful. My opinion is he was a little harsh in the way he interacted with her during the intimacy. Only thing Ms. Cam has not done that Sussie had done is apologizing to OM's wife. She will do that too if Cam ask her.


Some us feel most cheaters are not worth the effort, are way too big of a risk for a reward that over the long haul if not very high. It's very hard for a person in the first stages of being cheated on to appreciate that. They think getting the WS is going to make them happy and get them back to the place they were before they found out. However from reading on here and other boards it seems the really is very tainted. You just have to read all the posts from long term BS and they really don't seem very happy or content. The ones that do seem very rare. Just look at the tread I posted it's about 10 to 1. Even the ones on here never strike me as happy. Unsettled is how I would describe them. 

It's hard to watch someone struggle so hard for what will most likely never be the outcome they are anticipating. The real outcome is one that if you took out the emotion I bet 9 out of 10 wouldn't choose. This is why I say detach. If you are doing it for emotion sake, the emotional is going to change.


----------



## sokillme

curious234 said:


> You may have seen this. It is amazing (and kind of funny when it is exposed) how women fall to the schemes of womanizers
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-does-not-know-if-she-wants-stay-married.html


Another story of a guy happy to be his wife's plan b. People place too much importance in being married. Better to be single then be anyone's plan b. Once you get used to it being single is not a bad life. Before I met my wife I quite enjoyed it.


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## ABHale

Postnuptial should read that your girls get to chose who they live with.


----------



## ABHale

Cam, I think you will regret staying one day. 

Best of luck to you.


----------



## Doyle

Go for the post nup .


----------



## Malaise

*So then, when you ask your wife "how could you ask me how you looked when you knew you were going to meet the OM" and she answers "I don't know" or "I didn't think about it", believe her, she does not know because only someone with the enough intellect to think this situation through would have an answer to that question.*

Some people answer " I don't know " because it's to their advantage to do so. Telling the truth would hurt their cause much more than appearing stupid does and it's better for them to appear stupid rather than malicious.


----------



## NoChoice

ConanHub said:


> I am of the same thought process as @NoChoice and tend to agree with his last post.
> 
> She can develop her mental/emotional strength and discipline but that often takes work that people simply lack the fortitude to implement.
> 
> While my thoughts are in kinship with @NoChoice my heart is ruthlessly barbaric.
> 
> OP. How do you feel about spanking?
> 
> At some point, if you decide towards R, *spanking her ass purple may have beneficial effects* and a form of release for both of you.
> 
> Just a thought from the dark corridors where "He" dwells.


Barbarically pragmatic.



TDSC60 said:


> I love your technical analogies. They are spot on.
> 
> To take it a step further - *an Atari or Celeron processor cannot be "upgraded" to the most recent machine because the mother board cannot accommodate the "adult" processor. So can a WW change and begin to process info like an adult - probably not.*


QFT



Malaise said:


> *So then, when you ask your wife "how could you ask me how you looked when you knew you were going to meet the OM" and she answers "I don't know" or "I didn't think about it", believe her, she does not know because only someone with the enough intellect to think this situation through would have an answer to that question.*
> 
> Some people answer " I don't know " because it's to their advantage to do so. Telling the truth would hurt their cause much more than appearing stupid does and it's better for them to appear *stupid* rather than *malicious*.


OP, please note the choices. Not much to select from.


----------



## cam42

She really doesn't want to agree with anything custody wise in the post nup. She thinks the kids should have 50/50 with both of us if we divorce. I see where she is coming from, she knows they will want to live with me and if we divorce I don't want to isolate them from their mother. I did get a laugh regarding the comment about spanking, haha. 

And I haven't decided if I am staying yet. I am leaning towards it, but she has to know what she's getting into it. The marriage will never be like it was before. Even though I love her I let her know that might not enough. She said she will do anything not to lose me and our marriage and so far she has. 

Something that worried me is that she gave me oral today and was talking dirty during it, and I thought about her with the OM and during it I just told her to stop and I can't keep doing this right now. Told her I have thoughts about her doing all this with OM and she said she's sorry. Guess I thought I was ready to start being intimate with her for the time being, obviously I'm not.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

cam42 said:


> Something that worried me is that she gave me oral today and was talking dirty during it, and I thought about her with the OM and during it I just told her to stop and I can't keep doing this right now. Told her I have thoughts about her doing all this with OM and she said she's sorry. Guess I thought I was ready to start being intimate with her for the time being, obviously I'm not.


Human suffering works by association; it is an adaptive function, but in this context - not so adaptive. It gets easier if you commit to the healing process and give it time. Eventually, there will be thoughts, but they won't bother you so much.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

cam42 said:


> Something that worried me is that she gave me oral today and was talking dirty during it, and I thought about her with the OM and during it I just told her to stop and I can't keep doing this right now. Told her I have thoughts about her doing all this with OM and she said she's sorry. Guess I thought I was ready to start being intimate with her for the time being, obviously I'm not.


Dealing with consequences is what your wife will have to accept within reason of course. Do not be mean or abusive, but tell her the truth about how you feel. She has broken trust and this is one of many hurdles you both will encounter during reconciliation. Things may get better or they may become worse, but time is all you have right now.


----------



## 225985

sokillme said:


> Some us feel most cheaters are not worth the effort, are way too big of a risk for a reward that over the long haul if not very high. It's very hard for a person in the first stages of being cheated on to appreciate that. They think getting the WS is going to make them happy and get them back to the place they were before they found out. However from reading on here and other boards it seems the really is very tainted. You just have to read all the posts from long term BS and they really don't seem very happy or content. The ones that do seem very rare. Just look at the tread I posted it's about 10 to 1. Even the ones on here never strike me as happy. Unsettled is how I would describe them.
> 
> It's hard to watch someone struggle so hard for what will most likely never be the outcome they are anticipating. The real outcome is one that if you took out the emotion I bet 9 out of 10 wouldn't choose. This is why I say detach. If you are doing it for emotion sake, the emotional is going to change.



It's not surprising they are unhappy after the affair. Because most likely they had a poor marriage before the affair.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> She thinks the kids should have 50/50 with both of us if we divorce.


Unless she changes her mind it is almost certain that she will get at least50/50 in any court.




> She said she will do anything not to lose me and our marriage and so far she has.


Have her sign a legal document that she will never try to get more than 50% custody of the children. In that document have her state that you are a great father and that your children adore you and need you.

Your wife seems to be doing a lot of right things. However, you are very early in your crises and you should protect yourself in regards to custody of your children and your financial situation. As far as your emotions and your relationship to your wife that is going to be evolving for many many years, even decades.

You can get your custody and financial protection this year. Your relationship to your wife is just going to take a lot of years to get healthy. Some things you both can improve on and get better than you were and some things are just going to be a loss.

If you and your wife have a successful R, your children will benefit. However, your children can be aright even if your R does not work.


----------



## Bibi1031

cam42 said:


> Something that worried me is that she gave me oral today and was talking dirty during it, and I thought about her with the OM and during it I just told her to stop and I can't keep doing this right now. Told her I have thoughts about her doing all this with OM and she said she's sorry. Guess I thought I was ready to start being intimate with her for the time being, obviously I'm not.


I can truly relate to this. In that one month of attempted reconciliation we were intimate only twice. The first time I triggered like you and told him so. He assured me that no one knew him better than I and to make a long story short, he did relieve my fears and the sex was very good. It was not the same the second time; I didn't have triggers but It didn't fulfill me at all. I literally couldn't stand his touch and I have never felt desire for him ever since. 

Something inside me died after he cheated and I could not get it back. He was the only man I had ever been intimate with and for 21 years! This man was everything to me. I am high drive and having no desire for him was very strange. I am very glad though because this allowed me to move on quicker because I had needs that he simply couldn't fulfill anymore.

I have heard of others that had the same experience I had. Their WS were no longer desired by them either. Maybe you will realize this May be something you experience as well Cam.


----------



## Archangel2

drifting on said:


> ...
> 
> You need to ask her about the how do I look as she knew she was going to meet OM. Ask her what she would feel if you did that? Could she move past that? Ask her if she ever tried to stop the affair? Not thought of, but actually tried to stop. If not, why? Next ask her what she would feel if you had an affair and you did because you felt like roommates. I believe this was said strictly to rationalize her affair, not that your marriage was this way. Next, perhaps you can contact OMW, have her call your wife's phone from OM's phone at a time you will be together. If she answers or says nothing this shows she still wants him. Information that would be good for both you and OMW to know.
> 
> Ask her how many times they had sex. Did she think of you ever? Did she think about her kids? Did she think if everyone knew what would they think of her? Will she take a polygraph? Just because, it's for shock. Ask about the paternity of the kids, again, for shock. Then ask her one final question, why should I stay married to you? This question hurts bad, my wife cried so hard I actually began to think you could die from crying. This question hits them in their soul, and while some may say it's mean, it's actually her self reflecting to see any qualities in herself...


Cam - As you go through your period of discernment, I thought it might be good for you to ask your WW the questions @drifting on posted back before Valentines Day. Hopefully it would help you focus your decision making.


----------



## sokillme

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> I have the answers to all of your questions regarding your wife's, my wife's and virtually every other spouses betrayal. Do you really want to hear it, can you handle the truth? Think on this for a moment and ask yourself what kind of person betrays another. Many here believe your W to be nefarious, manipulative, ruthlessly cunning, maliciously disrespectful, diabolically clever and the list goes on. She is none of these. If she had the intellect to be any of the above or any other synonym thereof, she would not have allowed herself to be found out and if her A was discovered she would have a plan in place for that contingency. She would not be floundering but rather executing her carefully considered damage control plan. She is not.
> 
> Let me ask you do you consider your W to be a degenerate, a reprobate, a person suffering from severe psychological disorders? Is she prone to psychopathic behavior? If so, then she needs help far beyond anything you can offer her and you would be well advised to get you and your children away from her as soon as possible. If not, then there is only one other conclusion that explains all of her, and many others, behavior. Your wife simply does not have sufficient intellect to carefully and objectively think things through, in other words, she and so many other WSs are idiots, morons, dullards, simpletons or whichever other descriptive word you choose to use to describe someone incapable of carefully reasoned thought.
> 
> You see, your W has the mental capability, especially regarding emotions and emotional considerations, of that of a 7-8 year old child. I ask that you carefully consider what I am saying. Look at your wife when she has to deal with "grown up" situations such as the one she finds herself in presently. Is she capable and self assured or is she confused and scared? The former is the response of an adult the latter, a child. It is not possible for you to have any understanding of her thought process since you do not think as a child. Think back to dealing with your daughters when they were 7-8 years old, did they understand reason and logic, did they rationally think through their every action? Of course not and neither did/does your wife.
> 
> If you answered no to her being psychopathic then explain how she could betray you, her children, the family and HERSELF. She has caused HERSELF severe anguish and heartache, ridicule, scorn, condemnation and forever altered her relationship with her daughters and for what?? sex?? A fleeting, temporary sensation of pleasure. Is it worth it to a reasoned rational person to forgo all else for sex? No, it is not. By the way, do you know why it always comes down to sex? Why not thoughtful intellectual connection or deep emotional bonding, why does it always boil down to sex? Because that is all people of limited intellect understand, physical pleasure. What did she offer you (tempt you with if you prefer)?? Sex. Why? because that is all a child can offer, the physical pleasure of sex. Is sex what you need most right now? No, but she cannot understand the deep mental anguish you feel because she is not capable of it and therefore is totally lost as to what you need most, so she offers what her limited intellect has to offer, sex.
> 
> If she were cunning and calculated and ruthless then explain why was she was so blatantly overt with her A? Going out with the OM in public places where she could be easily spotted and making no effort to hide or even mask the obvious, in fact holding hands?? Does this sound like the actions of a shrewd, cunning strategist?? Why did she ask you how she looked before meeting with the OM. Why does a 7 year old child scream in rage that they hate their parent and wishes they were dead? Do they understand the ramifications to their life if their parent dies? Are they ready to support themselves? Do they feel the heartfelt pain the parent feels at hearing those words? Have they thought out their remark carefully? No, they are 7 and not given to rational, reasoned thought. She wanted to know if she looked good, it is as simple as that. I am sorry to say that the effects to you were not in her thought process any more than her children, parents, in laws or anyone else.
> 
> So then, when you ask your wife "how could you ask me how you looked when you knew you were going to meet the OM" and she answers "I don't know" or "I didn't think about it", believe her, she does not know because only someone with the enough intellect to think this situation through would have an answer to that question. I sincerely hope that you can see the truth in what I am telling you because it is the reality of your and my and countless others situation. To expect more from her is to invite disappointment. So, what you must realize is that your wife may truly be sorry for her deeds but only inasmuch as she is capable of feeling sorrow, shame and remorse. Anything beyond that is beyond her ability and you must understand that going forward. She may indeed be capable of modifying her behavior but it will never be from a position of true, deep understanding but rather because that is what she was supposed to do according to her IC, the books she has read and the scorn and disappointment shown toward her because of her deeds. She, like a child, must be told and made to understand, from some outside source (IC, books, etc.), why what she did was wrong and that her actions were not appropriate and how she should have handled the situation.
> 
> You are trying to understand the mind of a child using the cognition of an adult and what is causing you and me and so many others such confusion is understanding that physical maturity DOES NOT equal mental maturity. The body will grow and mature as the DNA dictates but the mind only responds and experiences growth from stimuli. People often refer to a person "not being wired that way" and that is actually quite accurate. The synaptic connections in the brain are indeed a network of contacts between neurons that could very well be seen as wiring. This "wiring" allows information (data) to be stored and transferred as necessary during thought and any limitations to this network has direct effect on the processed output (decisions, or choices if you prefer). Consider also that the synaptic development occurs from birth into the mid twenties so whatever development does not happen by then will not happen.
> 
> Think of it this way; my first computer was an old Atari tape driven machine with the ability to process 64 bits of information. As you can imagine the ability to write programs for this machine was severely limited as its processing power was minimal. As technology increased, the processors began to become more complex and capable of much higher data bit processing. We are biological machines and you could compare an infant to the old Atari, a toddler to the old 8080 processor, an adolescent to the 8086, a teenager to the Celeron or Pentium and an adult to the latest Xenon chip. So what do you think would happen if you tried to have an old 16 bit 8080 chip (child) run some of today's 32 or 64 bit software (adult)? It would fail and the corresponding output would be flawed. Just like your wife's "choice". I cannot say where she is along the "chip" progression but I can assure you that she is somewhere in the 8086 to Celeron range so to expect the processing output of a Xenon is delusional.
> 
> So, the choice you must make is do you want to be a quasi-parent for the remainder of your life with her. She may indeed never cheat again but since it is impossible to "train" someone in every aspect of "adult" relationships, she may falter in another area like finances for instance. Remember this however, I firmly believe that your wife cares for you and her family INASMUCH as she is capable of caring, which may represent less ability than you possess. It is obvious that you care for her a great deal.
> 
> Lastly, I do occasionally quote other posters when I feel their words have relevant truth or wisdom but I do not quote posters to rebut their opinion. Having a debate with other posters is not my purpose for posting here. It is not my place to debate them nor am I so inclined. My purpose here is to offer you as much knowledge and understanding as I can so that YOU can make the most informed decision possible that will best benefit YOU. Use what you feel is relevant and discard what you feel is not. Having said that I must comment on something I have read on this thread and a few others regarding advice given by a counselor or therapist and that is to allow the WS time to grieve the loss of their A and AP. I find this to be extremely troubling. Does one mourn the loss of a cancerous tumor? It is, after all, a part of your body but its effects are only destructive.
> 
> I find that advice akin to telling Jeffrey Dahmer that he should grieve the fact that he will never savor the delicious taste of human flesh again. It places an importance on the A and AP that it does not deserve. The A and the AP are wholly damaging, wholly destructive and have no place in a marriage and to advise one to mourn the loss of same I find borderline insane. To an underdeveloped, malleable intellect it lends credence and validity to something and someone where none is warranted. I would think it best to advise the WS to be glad that the disease was excised from their marriage, not to mourn its loss.
> 
> Again, all of the views expressed here are mine and I am not interested in debating them with other posters. Please use any of this that benefits you and discard the rest. I wish you good fortune.


So I think she is manipulative and selfish and you think she has the mentality of a 7 year old. Either way every husbands dream.


----------



## sokillme

cam42 said:


> She really doesn't want to agree with anything custody wise in the post nup. She thinks the kids should have 50/50 with both of us if we divorce. I see where she is coming from, she knows they will want to live with me and if we divorce I don't want to isolate them from their mother. I did get a laugh regarding the comment about spanking, haha.
> 
> And I haven't decided if I am staying yet. I am leaning towards it, but she has to know what she's getting into it. The marriage will never be like it was before. Even though I love her I let her know that might not enough. She said she will do anything not to lose me and our marriage and so far she has.
> 
> Something that worried me is that she gave me oral today and was talking dirty during it, and I thought about her with the OM and during it I just told her to stop and I can't keep doing this right now. Told her I have thoughts about her doing all this with OM and she said she's sorry. Guess I thought I was ready to start being intimate with her for the time being, obviously I'm not.


Man is it obvious that your wife uses her sexuality to manipulate and gain control. Personally I don't think that is a really redeeming quality. You have to wonder about how she thinks of it and herself. I am also not surprised you think of the other man. Sex for her is about getting what she wants, she probably use the same on him too.


----------



## eric1

I agree - next step is to really peel back the onion:

1. Get answers to Drifting On and Sharpshooters questions
2. Get post nup with 50/50 custody solidified


----------



## Malaise

sokillme said:


> Man is it obvious that your wife uses her sexuality to manipulate and gain control. Personally I don't think that is a really redeeming quality. You have to wonder about how she thinks of it and herself. I am also not surprised you think of the other man. Sex for her is about getting what she wants, she probably use the same on him too.


What does she have to offer either one besides sex?


----------



## BioFury

sokillme said:


> Man is it obvious that your wife uses her sexuality to manipulate and gain control. Personally I don't think that is a really redeeming quality. You have to wonder about how she thinks of it and herself. I am also not surprised you think of the other man. Sex for her is about getting what she wants, she probably use the same on him too.


There's no need to frame it in such a negative context. She wants her husband back. Sex is a powerful way to bond, and based on what the OP has told us, she wants to bond with him, and move their relationship in a positive direction. It is thus completely natural, and (if her polygraph is to be believed) not manipulation or a plot to gain leverage.


----------



## cam42

I told her I don't want her initiating or starting anything, she has agreed. She only did it because I asked her too, told me she won't initiate but if I ever want to the just ask. She was getting pretty into it and I just started to feel upset and sick.


----------



## manwithnoname

cam42 said:


> I told her I don't want her initiating or starting anything, she has agreed. She only did it because I asked her too, told me she won't initiate but if I ever want to the just ask. She was getting pretty into it and I just started to feel upset and sick.




Getting sexual seems like forgiveness, regardless of what you say to her. You are showing her that you are slowly allowing her back into your life, when there was some advice to have her live elsewhere and distance yourself to gather your thoughts.


----------



## NoChoice

cam42 said:


> I told her I don't want her initiating or starting anything, she has agreed. She only did it because I asked her too, told me she won't initiate but if I ever want to the just ask. She was getting pretty into it and I just started to feel upset and sick.


OP,
Do you notice the path you are on is worn bare? Many of us have traveled it.


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## farsidejunky

Speaking as a Moderator:

Folks, please do not discuss spam, or quote it. That is more the mods have to clean up. Just report it (like one poster did) so we can clean it up.

Thanks!


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## curious234

It is time Cam's wife let Cam do some chasing - LoL


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## GusPolinski

BioFury said:


> There's no need to frame it in such a negative context. She wants her husband back. Sex is a powerful way to bond, and based on what the OP has told us, she wants to bond with him, and move their relationship in a positive direction. It is thus completely natural, and (if her polygraph is to be believed) not manipulation or a plot to gain leverage.


If she's to be believed (HA!), she never unbonded, at least not to a significant degree.

So let's be clear here...

She wants _him_ to bond with HER.

It is manipulation, pure and simple.

She knows that he's teetering on the fence, so she's using sex to real him back in.

Otherwise she'd be giving him the space he requested.

Wake up, folks -- he says he needs time and space, she agrees to respect that, yet she's discussing the finer points of reconciliation and throwing sex at him at every turn.

_Way_ too much hardcore reconciliation / "marriage at any cost" rhetoric in this thread, IMO.

Take the blinders off FFS.


----------



## Evinrude58

I think cam's wife is 100% in self-preservation mode. 0 remorse. No time for remorse when one is trying to save their butt.
She still is in love with the OM. Why wouldn't she be?????
This affair didn't end because it was what she wanted. It ended because OM dumped her.
I'll be danged if I believe a woman can love two men romantically at the same time. If they say they can, it's because their idea of love is how much they like the sex.

Cam needs to detach, at very least the post nup......
If he's unable to get a bj without getting sick, he may as well hang it up. He is not going to be able to stomach this.


----------



## BioFury

GusPolinski said:


> If she's to be believed (HA!), she never unbonded, at least not to a significant degree.
> 
> So let's be clear here...
> 
> She wants _him_ to bond with HER.
> 
> It is manipulation, pure and simple.
> 
> She knows that he's teetering on the fence, so she's using sex to real him back in.
> 
> Otherwise she'd be giving him the space he requested.
> 
> Wake up, folks -- he says he needs time and space, she agrees to respect that, yet she's discussing the finer points of reconciliation and throwing sex at him at every turn.
> 
> _Way_ too much hardcore reconciliation / "marriage at any cost" rhetoric in this thread, IMO.
> 
> Take the blinders off FFS.


He asked her for sex/oral. She didn't "throw sex at him".

He loves her, and while she did make the mother of all mistakes, she is trying to make things right. Two people who love each other, who are working on their marriage is not "marriage at any cost". They want to be together.


----------



## GusPolinski

BioFury said:


> He asked her for sex/oral. She didn't "throw sex at him".


In that one instance? Maybe not.

But she has been since the start, and the result was him relenting and asking for sex.

Think that wasn't planned?

cam: "I need time and space. I don't know if I want to reconcile."

WW: "OK. I respect that. But we should start having sex ASAP to kickstart reconciliation."

cam: "Were you even listening to me?"

WW: "Yeah. You said we should start having sex ASAP in order to kickstart reconciliation."



BioFury said:


> He loves her...


Love without trust means nothing, and once cam's "love fog" has cleared, he'll realize that.



BioFury said:


> ...and while she did make the mother of all mistakes, she is trying to make things right.


...for _her_.



BioFury said:


> Two people who love each other, who are working on their marriage is not "marriage at any cost". They want to be together.


My comments re: "marriage at all cost" were directed not at cam, but rather at everyone intent on pushing an ill-advised reconciliation.


----------



## sokillme

BioFury said:


> There's no need to frame it in such a negative context. She wants her husband back. Sex is a powerful way to bond, and based on what the OP has told us, she wants to bond with him, and move their relationship in a positive direction. It is thus completely natural, and (if her polygraph is to be believed) not manipulation or a plot to gain leverage.


Using sex to manipulate is always a negative context in my opinion. The purpose of sex should be giving not getting.


----------



## sokillme

Malaise said:


> What does she have to offer either one besides sex?


Truth.


----------



## sokillme

Evinrude58 said:


> I think cam's wife is 100% in self-preservation mode. 0 remorse. No time for remorse when one is trying to save their butt.
> She still is in love with the OM. Why wouldn't she be?????
> This affair didn't end because it was what she wanted. It ended because OM dumped her.
> I'll be danged if I believe a woman can love two men romantically at the same time. If they say they can, it's because their idea of love is how much they like the sex.
> 
> Cam needs to detach, at very least the post nup......
> If he's unable to get a bj without getting sick, he may as well hang it up. He is not going to be able to stomach this.


So true. And people who can be in love with someone and yet throw their bodies at someone else, or even do it a few weeks later, just to preserve their self-interests are very poor choices to be married to. They should be ran away from fast and long. But then again people who would do this in the first place are not the most moral of people.


----------



## sokillme

BioFury said:


> He asked her for sex/oral. She didn't "throw sex at him".
> 
> He loves her, and while she did make the mother of all mistakes, she is trying to make things right. *Two people who love each other*, who are working on their marriage is not "marriage at any cost". They want to be together.


Make no mistake taking back someone who cheated on you is by definition marriage at all cost. It's marriage at the mother of costs.

The bolded part is where people make their biggest mistake. Love is SO not enough for a good marriage or a healthy relationship. I dare say there is not a person who gets cheated on that doesn't love their WS. So what.


----------



## Malaise

From where I sit it seems Cam and his W are moving forward at two different speeds.

Cam is still shell shocked and moving more cautiously, sorting out his feelings as he goes. He's not sure, rightfully so, where it will all end up.

His W is moving full speed ahead throwing sex at him to 'force' the relationship back into line. And she smells of desperation doing it.


----------



## Andy1001

Cam needs to ask himself this question.If the om turned up at Cams house begging her to get back together with him and set up home together what would her immediate thoughts be.Not when she thought it through but her immediate thoughts.


----------



## Evinrude58

Was a polygraph question: Do you still love the OM?

Surely it was, and surely she didn't pass it.


----------



## BioFury

GusPolinski said:


> In that one instance? Maybe not.
> 
> But she has been since the start, and the result was him relenting and asking for sex.
> 
> Think that wasn't planned?
> 
> cam: "I need time and space. I don't know if I want to reconcile."
> 
> WW: "OK. I respect that. But we should start having sex ASAP to kickstart reconciliation."
> 
> cam: "Were you even listening to me?"
> 
> WW: "Yeah. You said we should start having sex ASAP in order to kickstart reconciliation."
> 
> Love without trust means nothing, and once cam's "love fog" has cleared, he'll realize that.
> 
> ...for _her_.
> 
> My comments re: "marriage at all cost" were directed not at cam, but rather at everyone intent on pushing an ill-advised reconciliation.


The instance before this one, was also initiated by him. But I don't remember who initiated the very first session of oral.

True, love must have trust. The trust between them was broken. Cam is deciding whether to rebuild that trust, or leave it as it is.

I'm seeing assumptions being made by you, as well as other posters. "Filling-in" details, and making statements that you don't know to be true. Cam says that she has done everything he's asked her, and she passed two polygraphs. So unless she's ex military who's been trained to cheat the poly... then that's some strong evidence that she's telling the truth. 

Sure, you may be right. But your statements are based upon assumptions. Which would normally be fine, we can't know everything, and have to expound upon the information we actually possess. The reason I take issue in this case, is because your statements go against the evidence. In order for your statements to be true, she would have had to beat two polygraph exams. Which for an untrained individual, is unlikely.



sokillme said:


> Using sex to manipulate is always a negative context in my opinion. The purpose of sex should be giving not getting.


You didn't read what I said. He's the one who asked for sex, but even if he hadn't, it's entirely normal to want to have sex with your spouse in order to bond. You are making an assumption about her motives.



sokillme said:


> Make no mistake taking back someone who cheated on you is by definition marriage at all cost. It's marriage at the mother of costs.
> 
> The bolded part is where people make their biggest mistake. Love is SO not enough for a good marriage or a healthy relationship. I dare say there is not a person who gets cheated on that doesn't love their WS. So what.


It's his choice. He loves her, and doesn't want to live without her. If she's willing to turn things around, and he's willing to forgive her, then that is their business.


----------



## ConanHub

BioFury said:


> He asked her for sex/oral. She didn't "throw sex at him".
> 
> He loves her, and while she did make the mother of all mistakes, she is trying to make things right. Two people who love each other, who are working on their marriage is not "marriage at any cost". They want to be together.


Just one point.

She didn't make a mistake. She became a disgusting, home wrecking crotch hound that cared more for another man's penis in her vagina than her husband and children's welfare as well as the other family she screwed over to have strange penis in her.

She isn't fit to lick toilets much less be honored as a wife and mother.

She can change and I sincerely hope she does.

She was probably a decent person at some point before she CHOSE to destroy two marriages for the sake of her crotch for six months for which she had no intention of stopping, fully enjoying her vile behavior until caught and dumped by the loser she was with.

She has a long way to go to even resemble something more human and less scaly.

Regardless of whether he wants to attempt R, she needs to transform herself into something above pond slime to be any good for her children and a husband.

It isn't a fast process and she is no where near what she needs to be.

She is motivated and that is positive.

If he takes her back, I hope he doesn't choose to do so until she has taken some time and massive effort to be worthy of the title of wife and mother.

She chose to be a home wrecking cheap piece of azz.

She won't fix anything until she fixes herself.

Throwing sex at her husband might be with good intentions but it isn't what is needed. He could get sex from any easy lay out there. She needs to be so much more. 

P.S. I was dead serious about the spanking!:grin2:


----------



## sokillme

BioFury said:


> You didn't read what I said. He's the one who asked for sex, but even if he hadn't, it's entirely normal to want to have sex with your spouse in order to bond. You are making an assumption about her motives.


True but there have been other instances where she does this.



BioFury said:


> It's his choice. He loves her, and doesn't want to live without her. If she's willing to turn things around, and he's willing to forgive her, then that is their business.


He posted on here for advice. He is going to get it from me. He can choose to listen to it or not. So many make the mistake of running back to ruined marriage and wasting the prime years of their lives with less then worthy partners.


----------



## stillthinking

Hi Cam,

Lots of advice coming you way this weekend. I would just suggest that you, as much as you can, detach from her. I know it will be tough because she has yet to give you the space you need, despite your requests. But if you can get some distance from her you can then begin to analyze the current situation from a more neutral standpoint.

Is this true remorse? 
Is she in CYA mode?

We all have opinions on what her true intentions and motivations are. Some want to see the happy side and say she is R material. 

Others think she is only there because she got dumped, and would still be asking your opinion of her outfit before leaving on her dates. (Personally I see this as the more likely explanation)

But what it really comes down to is what do YOU think she is doing? And for you to figure that out will require more logic and less emotion. To rise above the situation and view it like an alien that has come down to analyze. Like someone who has no skin in the game. An impartial assessment. Now that is tough to do in this situation. None of us are Spock. And I am not saying to disregard your feelings. Just to set them aside for a bit.

And the only way you are going to get into that mind space is to detach. You need space, physical and emotional, to sort your thoughts out. So tell her that you need this space. Do not ask her to give you space, tell her. That she is to not initiate discussion about the affair and marriage for now. If you want info from her you will ask her. You stopped the sex part and that is good. I would go a step further and avoid cuddling or any intimate contact. 

If she IS truly interested in YOUR well-being and recovery, she WILL give you the space.

If she IS NOT truly interested in YOUR well-being and recovery, she WILL NOT give you space. She will keep doing what she has done since the OM dumped her, and continue to be in your face.


----------



## sokillme

stillthinking said:


> Hi Cam,
> 
> Lots of advice coming you way this weekend. I would just suggest that you, as much as you can, detach from her. I know it will be tough because she has yet to give you the space you need, despite your requests. But if you can get some distance from her you can then begin to analyze the current situation from a more neutral standpoint.
> 
> Is this true remorse?
> Is she in CYA mode?
> 
> We all have opinions on what her true intentions and motivations are. Some want to see the happy side and say she is R material.
> 
> Others think she is only there because she got dumped, and would still be asking your opinion of her outfit before leaving on her dates. (Personally I see this as the more likely explanation)
> 
> But what it really comes down to is what do YOU think she is doing? And for you to figure that out will require more logic and less emotion. To rise above the situation and view it like an alien that has come down to analyze. Like someone who has no skin in the game. An impartial assessment. Now that is tough to do in this situation. None of us are Spock. And I am not saying to disregard your feelings. Just to set them aside for a bit.
> 
> And the only way you are going to get into that mind space is to detach. You need space, physical and emotional, to sort your thoughts out. So tell her that you need this space. Do not ask her to give you space, tell her. That she is to not initiate discussion about the affair and marriage for now. If you want info from her you will ask her. You stopped the sex part and that is good. I would go a step further and avoid cuddling or any intimate contact.
> 
> If she IS truly interested in YOUR well-being and recovery, she WILL give you the space.
> 
> If she IS NOT truly interested in YOUR well-being and recovery, she WILL NOT give you space. She will keep doing what she has done since the OM dumped her, and continue to be in your face.


Like to add, some also think a very big part of this is if you can live with it, and here being R material doesn't matter as much right now as this question. It is to raw right now for you to know the answer to that question. You will probably know in a year or so.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Cam, 

If I may go against popular opinion on here and speak from experience, your wife has hit the remorse stage in my humble opinion.
Now that reality has set in she is extremely upset with herself for doing something so utterly reprehensible to you and your children. What is occurring now Is FEAR. She knows now it is a real and distinct possibility that her relationship with you and your children could all go down the drain. I will be the first to admit upon discovery of my wife's affair, I wanted to go scorched earth on her the POSOM and destroy them. I was beyond angry. I did get some good advice from the posters on here and a chaplain I kne well from my days in the Corps to let go of the hate and anger as it is only hurting me. 

I am going to be direct and to the point. If you love your wife, do what it takes to make it work if reconciliation is in your field of vision. Don't drag it out if that is where you are wanting to go. Do it. The word provided to me here on this site was MERCY. Show mercy to her and you will be showing her how strong you are. Her fate is in your hands and she is well aware of this. However, she needs to give you the space to heal and should not be trying to do anything sexual, but please keep in mind she is scared of losing you, as well as her children. I am speaking from experience my friend. She is t-totally scared right now.


----------



## sokillme

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Cam,
> 
> If I may go against popular opinion on here and speak from experience, your wife has hit the remorse stage in my humble opinion.
> Now that reality has set in she is extremely upset with herself for doing something so utterly reprehensible to you and your children. What is occurring now Is FEAR. She knows now it is a real and distinct possibility that her relationship with you and your children could all go down the drain. I will be the first to admit upon discovery of my wife's affair, I wanted to go scorched earth on her the POSOM and destroy them. I was beyond angry. I did get some good advice from the posters on here and a chaplain I kne well from my days in the Corps to let go of the hate and anger as it is only hurting me.
> 
> I am going to be direct and to the point. If you love your wife, do what it takes to make it work if reconciliation is in your field of vision. Don't drag it out if that is where you are wanting to go. Do it. The word provided to me here on this site was MERCY. Show mercy to her and you will be showing her how strong you are. Her fate is in your hands and she is well aware of this. However, she needs to give you the space to heal and should not be trying to do anything sexual, but please keep in mind she is scared of losing you, as well as her children. I am speaking from experience my friend. She is t-totally scared right now.


She should be scared. It means, at least she is not the fool she once was. Also there is no real possibility she will lose her children, but she has already lost their respect. Not really his issue to deal with. 

What exactly is mercy? Certainly you are not saying stay in the marriage to show mercy? That is a bridge too far, and is totally the wrong reasons to stay. The thing I notice time and time again with guys who get cheated on is they think somehow preventing their wives from feeling consequences from their poor decisions is being merciful and a good husband. It's not. But this is the dynamic even before there is cheating. I personally think this kind of thinking leads to getting cheated on in the first place. If you treat your wife like a child don't be surprised when you are married to a child who behaves like a adolescent teenager. 

This seems to be the dynamic all the time with these women too. They basically never really grew up, they just substituted their husband for their parents. Honestly maybe this is part of the problem. Most people when they date people who have juvenile thinking grow very weary of them pretty fast. I wonder if some people in these kind of dysfunctional marriages gravitate to this kind of messed up dynamic. Like somehow they think this is what love is. Sacrificial love or something. It's not. Trust me being married to an adult is 100% better. 


No one says he has to treat her poorly but the most she "deserves" is human dignity. Mercy is not getting revenge and going out and doing the same thing to her that she did to him. It is not, preventing her from having fear. Fear is a good healthy emotion in this case. Fear, pain, loneliness, shame, should I go on? No pain no gain, no pain no growth.


----------



## TX-SC

sokillme said:


> She should be scared. It means, at least she is not the fool she once was. Also there is no real possibility she will lose her children, but she has already lost their respect. Not really his issue to deal with.
> 
> What exactly is mercy? Certainly you are not saying stay in the marriage to show mercy? That is a bridge too far, and is totally the wrong reasons to stay. The thing I notice time and time again with guys who get cheated on is they think somehow preventing their wives from feeling consequences from their poor decisions is being merciful and a good husband. It's not. But this is the dynamic even before there is cheating. I personally think this kind of thinking leads to getting cheated on in the first place. If you treat your wife like a child don't be surprised when you are married to a child who behaves like a adolescent teenager.
> 
> This seems to be the dynamic all the time with these women too. They basically never really grew up, they just substituted their husband for their parents. Honestly maybe this is part of the problem. Most people when they date people who have juvenile thinking grow very weary of them pretty fast. I wonder if some people in these kind of dysfunctional marriages gravitate to this kind of messed up dynamic. Like somehow they think this is what love is. Sacrificial love or something. It's not. Trust me being married to an adult is 100% better.
> 
> 
> No one says he has to treat her poorly but the most she "deserves" is human dignity. Mercy is not getting revenge and going out and doing the same thing to her that she did to him. It is not, preventing her from having fear. Fear is a good healthy emotion in this case. Fear, pain, loneliness, shame, should I go on? No pain no gain, no pain no growth.


I know we don't always agree here, but I do agree that what you are saying is USUALLY the case. In this case, they have been together for 21 years. She cheated for 6 months, but according to Cam, the remainder of their time together has been good. Rather than label her as one of "these women" and place her in a tidy little box, lets consider that she is human and made a series of horrible decisions. It doesn't mean she "never grew up" or that she can't redeem herself. It only means that she did some very bad things for several months. 

Cam is well within his rights to D and move on. What she did was horrible, but she is also human and has spent 20.5 years being a good partner and a good mother. Is there no redemption for what she did? Is there no way she can be remorseful and earn his trust? 

I have been married for 21 years, together for 23. So, just about the same as Cam. If my wife did this it would destroy me. I might very well D her sorry butt! But I also know that we have had a great marriage up until now, with two wonderful daughters. Would one horrible choice make me D her? I really don't know. But I know my wife. I know her emotions, her desires, and her worries. I have known much happiness with her. I don't know how I would react, but like Cam, I would want to take it slow and easy before making that final decision. 

I think R is a very real possibility here. I don't see her throwing sex at Cam to woo him to her side. What I see is a woman desparate to do ANYTHING she can to help ease his pain and undo some of the harm she has done. Hell, if I were in her shoes I'd probably do the same thing. He told her to back off and she is backing off. I believe she truly loves Cam and never intended to leave him. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## sokillme

TX-SC said:


> I know we don't always agree here, but I do agree that what you are saying is USUALLY the case. In this case, they have been together for 21 years. She cheated for 6 months, but according to Cam, the remainder of their time together has been good. Rather than label her as one of "these women" and place her in a tidy little box, lets consider that she is human and made a series of horrible decisions. It doesn't mean she "never grew up" or that she can't redeem herself. It only means that she did some very bad things for several months.
> 
> Cam is well within his rights to D and move on. What she did was horrible, but she is also human and has spent 20.5 years being a good partner and a good mother. Is there no redemption for what she did? Is there no way she can be remorseful and earn his trust?
> 
> I have been married for 21 years, together for 23. So, just about the same as Cam. If my wife did this it would destroy me. I might very well D her sorry butt! But I also know that we have had a great marriage up until now, with two wonderful daughters. Would one horrible choice make me D her? I really don't know. But I know my wife. I know her emotions, her desires, and her worries. I have known much happiness with her. I don't know how I would react, but like Cam, I would want to take it slow and easy before making that final decision.
> 
> I think R is a very real possibility here. I don't see her throwing sex at Cam to woo him to her side. What I see is a woman desparate to do ANYTHING she can to help ease his pain and undo some of the harm she has done. Hell, if I were in her shoes I'd probably do the same thing. He told her to back off and she is backing off. I believe she truly loves Cam and never intended to leave him.
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


I would feel better about your request is she hadn't been pressuring him from the very beginning to R, and to control his R. My sense it this was always the relationship dynamic. 

And again *"I believe she truly loves Cam and never intended to leave him"* why does this matter because she STILL did it. If anything it's worse. I would ask you, what is love without respect? Is only one of those enough? Is one worth the other? 

I guess that is what it really comes down to with me. I don't think in this whole thread has Cam's wife treated him with just plain respect. Respect would have been not trying to push him to R, giving him time when he asked, not taking the call from her boyfriend after she had been caught, not laughing with friends on the phone in front of him when she was cheating, not going out an holding hands in public, and finally the coup de grâce not asking him how she looked when she was going out on her date. What kind of person does this? She held hand with him in public that suggest she doesn't even have respect for herself. Why is this person a candidate to R with? How much does living with a person who he knows treats him with such lack of respect harm his dignity. 

I ask myself on here time and time again why are so many men who are willing to R so willing to give up being treated with respect. I have to be honest I fell like a lot of you guys don't even see this as an issue. I think that is part of the problem. Like they say you show people how to treat you. You guys don't even notice the disrespect and I am not just talking about the cheating. Through the whole beginnings of R she just completely disrespects his wishes. It is a pattern that is consistent on all of these threads. There is always a total lack of respect. And a willingness to put up with it.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

So Kill Me. I sense a hard heart, and maybe it is justified. But step back and take a deep breath and "listen" to what I am posting. I just get that there are similarities between Mrs. Cam and Mrs LH. I see big time similarities. What my wife did was far worse than Cam's as she was banging a 35 year old for nine months. I forgave I did not forget as we had been married almost thirty years at DDay. I took a lot of **** for the manner in which I initiated the R, but I did so from a position of strength. I did not rug sweep by any means, but I welcomed her back with open arms. ( Think parable of the prodigal son as an analogy)

Cam is in a position of strength. He realizes, I hope, that he has the power in the relationship. He is like a Roman emporor as he can "thumbs up, or,thumbs down", his wife. I was in same position. Thankfully, I listened to the voice of reason. I think I am having a pretty good second marriage as she is treating me "better than I deserve" to quote a pal of mine. I think Cam may be able to experience something similar to me.

My wife has done so much over the last year to take care of me and make up for past transgressions, I could not post it all. But, it has not Been peaches and cream, as I Have had my triggers and Cam what you experienced yesterday was a trigger, and I will caution you should you go down the path of r, there are more to follow. But I think you are strong enough to deal with the triggers provided you get into IC, and MC.

I said a few prayers for you at mass this morning. 

Wishing you nothing but the best going forward sir.


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## sokillme

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> So Kill Me. I sense a hard heart, and maybe it is justified. But step back and take a deep breath and "listen" to what I am posting. I just get that there are similarities between Mrs. Cam and Mrs LH. I see big time similarities. What my wife did was far worse than Cam's as she was banging a 35 year old for nine months. I forgave I did not forget as we had been married almost thirty years at DDay. I took a lot of **** for the manner in which I initiated the R, but I did so from a position of strength. I did not rug sweep by any means, but I welcomed her back with open arms. ( Think parable of the prodigal son as an analogy)
> 
> Cam is in a position of strength. He realizes, I hope, that he has the power in the relationship. He is like a Roman emporor as he can "thumbs up, or,thumbs down", his wife. I was in same position. Thankfully, I listened to the voice of reason. I think I am having a pretty good second marriage as she is treating me "better than I deserve" to quote a pal of mine. I think Cam may be able to experience something similar to me.
> 
> My wife has done so much over the last year to take care of me and make up for past transgressions, I could not post it all. But, it has not Ben peaches and cream, as. Have had my triggers and Cam what you experienced yesterday was a trigger, and I will caution you should you go down the path of r, there are more to follow. But I think you are strong enough to deal with the triggers provided you get into IC, and MC.
> 
> I said a few prayers for you at mass this morning.
> 
> Wishing you nothing but the best going forward sir.


I respect you LH especially for your service and it's your life, but I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on this. Anyone who stays in a marriage with a cheater never does it from a position of strength. The only way to get the position of strength in my opinion is divorce and start over. Let her compete with everyone else. At least then you both left the marriage. It's not just one who was left holding the bag for 6 months while the other gets to have play time. The BS always gets the worst deal if they stay. 

I also don't really see any difference between Cam's wife and yours. Both were pretty awful.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Maybe so, Maybe not. We?ll see. | Dr. Marlo Archer

This is one of my favorite stories thanks to my MC. Cam please read it.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

'The quality of mercy is not strained. It drops as the gentle rain from heaven Upon the place beneath. Rather is twiced blessed. It blessed by him that gives mercy and by she that receives mercy".-Unknown

"So sure of yourself so strong you are xxxxx. No tolerance at all for any weak individual such as your wife"-My MC making it real.


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## TX-SC

sokillme said:


> I respect you LH especially for your service and it's your life, but I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on this. Anyone who stays in a marriage with a cheater never does it from a position of strength. The only way to get the position of strength in my opinion is divorce and start over. Let her compete with everyone else. At least then you both left the marriage. It's not just one who was left holding the bag for 6 months while the other gets to have play time. The BS always gets the worst deal if they stay.
> 
> I also don't really see any difference between Cam's wife and yours. Both were pretty awful.


So, in your estimation, being cheated on makes you weak and gives your spouse strength. They gain the upper hand while the BS is placed in a weak position? I don't see relationships as a power struggle and I don't see cheating as a means to gain the upper hand in a relationship. 

Cam holds all of the cards. He can D or R. His wife knows that. How is this being in a weak position? We all know that D is ultimately easier than R. So, how is reconsiling considered weak? By reconsiling you are basically giving your spouse a second chance. That is the ultimate expression of making a powerful decision. It's easier to be angry with someone than it is to forgive them. 

If Cam decides to R with his wife, it'll be a decision he makes of his own accord. It will not make him weak. He loves his wife. His wife appears to love him too. She did some VERY bad things. He can choose to work through it or he can choose to cut and run. That power is his to use as he pleases. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## straightshooter

Cam,

Just my opinion, but unless there are some more unexpected revelations, I can't think of any more opinions that could not be given here that have not already been. It is obvious you want to reconcile with her which is fine if that is what you arrive at.

Some of us who have been talking to on this journey into the ****storm think your wife is well on the way to remorse, and some of us, myself included, that there are a few things you have ignored and not gotten answers to which are not to your advantage. And for me, it is not about that night she asked you how she looked. That has been analyzed to death. 

Youre missing the info on friends involvement, or just do not want to post it, so I hope that does not come back to bite you in some way. 

There is no doubt she is going to do whatever you say to do. Only time will tell the reason why, remorse or cya? You have to sort that one out yourself.

I just hope you do not fall asleep on this path of R and lose track of where this OM is and his status because not matter how this has come down, he dumped her, and she would have kept it going. That you will have to deal with.

No way to speed up the process. You are in for a long road of work. I hope it works out for you.


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## sokillme

TX-SC said:


> So, in your estimation, being cheated on makes you weak and gives your spouse strength. They gain the upper hand while the BS is placed in a weak position? I don't see relationships as a power struggle and I don't see cheating as a means to gain the upper hand in a relationship.
> 
> Cam holds all of the cards. He can D or R. His wife knows that. How is this being in a weak position? We all know that D is ultimately easier than R. So, how is reconsiling considered weak? By reconsiling you are basically giving your spouse a second chance. That is the ultimate expression of making a powerful decision. It's easier to be angry with someone than it is to forgive them.
> 
> If Cam decides to R with his wife, it'll be a decision he makes of his own accord. It will not make him weak. He loves his wife. His wife appears to love him too. She did some VERY bad things. He can choose to work through it or he can choose to cut and run. That power is his to use as he pleases.
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


I really just don't see it that way. 

Cam holds no more cards then he always did. He could always D or stay married. Now though he is married to a cheater and someone who hurt him probably more then any other human being. He will be triggered probably for the rest of his life. Her very presence is a trigger. He will not get over it, he will learn to live with it. There will always be a third person in the marriage, the affair partner. All you have to do is read the threads to see this. This is the reality of the situation. It needs to be said. 

As far as a position of power I think there is something to be said about a cheater who is taken back knowing they can get away with it. I read these threads and very often the cheater starts pushing boundaries all over again. At least if he divorces they can build something new even if it is with her. He can also test out his options and not break his vows, unlike what she did when she tested hers. (Though marriage is the only legal agreement where one party brakes the agreement and yet we still hold the other party accountable to keep it.) Anyway starting over is at least equitable. 

I also believe whole-heartedly that a person who has a disposition to cheat is much more of a risk. I see them very much like alcoholics. There is always a risk. Plus the more you read their posts the more you see there are usually some deep character flaws that need lots of work to fix. 

I believe in forgiveness, but taking them back or giving them a second chance has nothing to do with that. 

Besides all I believe, look at how she has acted. Again she has continued to try to dominate him. Not a good sign. I said it before she had repeatedly disrespected him. It seems to be in her nature.


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## sokillme

straightshooter said:


> There is no doubt she is going to do whatever you say to do.


She didn't even give him space when he asked for it?:scratchhead:


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## TX-SC

sokillme said:


> I really just don't see it that way.
> 
> Cam holds no more cards then he always did. He could always D or stay married. Now though he is married to a cheater and someone who hurt him probably more then any other human being. He will be triggered probably for the rest of his life. He will not get over it, he will learn to live with it. There will always be a third person in the marriage, the affair partner. All you have to do is read the threads to see this. This is the reality of the situation. It needs to be said.
> 
> As far as a position of power I think there is something to be said about a cheater who is taken back knowing they can get away with it. I read these threads and very often the cheater starts pushing boundaries all over again. At least if he divorces they can build something new even if it is with her. He can also test out his options and not break his vows, unlike what she did when she tested hers. (Though marriage is the only legal agreement where one party brakes the agreement and yet we still hold the other party accountable to keep it.) Anyway starting over is at least equitable.
> 
> I also believe whole-heartedly that a person who has a disposition to cheat is much more of a risk. I see them very much like alcoholics. There is always a risk. Plus the more you read their posts the more you see there are usually some deep character flaws that need lots of work to fix.
> 
> I believe in forgiveness, but taking them back or giving them a second chance has nothing to do with that.
> 
> Besides all I believe, look at how she has acted. Again she has continued to try to dominate him. Not a good sign. I said it before she had repeatedly disrespected him. It seems to be in her nature.


I don't see her as trying to dominate him or force anything on him. What I see is someone who is trying desparately to figure out how to right the wrong she committed. Granted, taking the OM's call and breaking NC was a setback, but overall I see someone reading books, going to SI, searching websites, seeking counseling, and trying to figure out how to fix this. There will be mistakes along the way. But, I think she is certainly trying to help Cam through this and trying to fix herself. 

I agree with you 100 percent that this will always be a presence in their marriage. It would be easier to walk away and find someone new. I don't believe that every cheater is destined to cheat again. He could fall in love with someone new and they could also cheat. 

The mind movies are what hurt me the most when I decided to end my engagement. I couldn't have sex with her without imagining every moan, every whispered "I love you", every sex act being done to the other guy. It was too much for me. But then, I wasn't married with kids. If it happened now, I couldn't end it so easily. 

Cam has ashot at R if he can handle it.

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## ConanHub

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> 'The quality of mercy is not strained. It drops as the gentle rain from heaven Upon the place beneath. Rather is twiced blessed. It blessed by him that gives mercy and by she that receives mercy".-Unknown
> 
> "So sure of yourself so strong you are xxxxx. No tolerance at all for any weak individual such as your wife"-My MC making it real.


Just another view.

I have mercy and tolerance for the weak but I only share my bed with someone strong enough to be faithful.

Fair? I think so.

Your choice was yours. No one else has to live with the repercussions of your choices.

Tolerance and mercy for the weak doesn't mean taking them to your marriage bed.

My wife has plenty of weaknesses but she will not cross the infidelity barrier.

I'm for healthy solutions and sometimes that includes R. In your situation, I believe R was healthy.

That couldn't be farther from the truth for everyone.

Too early to tell in this circumstance but at least she is trying.

I hope for neither R or D but the healthiest choice for the children and betrayed first then the cheaters.

Peace.


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## ConanHub

TX-SC said:


> So, in your estimation, being cheated on makes you weak and gives your spouse strength. They gain the upper hand while the BS is placed in a weak position? I don't see relationships as a power struggle and I don't see cheating as a means to gain the upper hand in a relationship.
> 
> Cam holds all of the cards. He can D or R. His wife knows that. How is this being in a weak position? We all know that D is ultimately easier than R. So, how is reconsiling considered weak? By reconsiling you are basically giving your spouse a second chance. That is the ultimate expression of making a powerful decision. It's easier to be angry with someone than it is to forgive them.
> 
> If Cam decides to R with his wife, it'll be a decision he makes of his own accord. It will not make him weak. He loves his wife. His wife appears to love him too. She did some VERY bad things. He can choose to work through it or he can choose to cut and run. That power is his to use as he pleases.
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


Don't be so narrow.

Many choose to R because they are weak. R or D is no indicator of strength or weakness.


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## TX-SC

ConanHub said:


> Don't be so narrow.
> 
> Many choose to R because they are weak. R or D is no indicator of strength or weakness.


That is my point exactly. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## ConanHub

TX-SC said:


> That is my point exactly.
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


Discussions are good for this very reason. We have realized we agree.


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## straightshooter

sokillme said:


> She didn't even give him space when he asked for it?:scratchhead:


Cam is a big boy and an intelligent guy. He can stop her from violating what he wants as far as "space " is concerned. Will it be more difficult because she keeps testing him. Yup it will. But gthe "space" ship really sailed a while ago when he did not resist her moving back in. Cam was in much more shock when that occurred. Right now she will resist nothing.

But what it appears, and maybe I am wrong, Cam does not know who of her friends and work associates either knew or encouraged this. She apparently still works with these people, if not OM, and if they were toxic people then they are going to continue to be. My guess it work friends that knew because there had to be a reason she offered to quit the job immediately if OM was already gone. 

My concern is if Cam gives her his expectations, which he will, that these toxic people will be influencing her. Now if anyone thinks she was just giggling like a teenager about jokes someone was telling,then I guess my concerns on this are irrelavant. But if I am right, there are people at her work or social circle that were egging her on and will be more than happy if OM wants to join them at a social circle event.

His wife needs to disclose these people and remove them from her life. That is the piece I see Cam missing right now. So how does he feel safe because she cannot be locked in the house with no one to go out anywhere with. He needs to know who she is hanging out with sand what if any role they played.

Just like the rest of it, its his call. But I think he is leaving a hole in the plan to R if this is not addressed.


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## eric1

With all due respect, at this point it is our role to help Cam get to a point where he:

1. Has control
2. Is enabled to make a decision
3. Is no longer being cheated on

Until we get him squared away on those three things there isn't much point is discussing whether he should or should not go down a certain route.


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## stillthinking

A MC's job is to help and save marriages.



> "So sure of yourself so strong you are xxxxx. No tolerance at all for any weak individual such as your wife"-My MC making it real.


I have seen this a lot. It is part of a common technique that MC's use when a BH wants to stay in the marriage but is having a hard time with the cognitive dissonance. After telling themselves they would never stay with a cheater, they then find themselves feeling very different when faced with it. So in order to make that pill easier to swallow they employ the "Broken WW" narrative.

If the WW just screwed a guy because she wanted to, because felt good and she liked it...then how does a BH stay and look himself in the mirror. Staying married to a supremely selfish woman is a very tough sell. But sometimes the BH really wants to stay in the marriage. For a variety of reasons, some of them very admirable. It seems like a no win situation. 

But if you re-frame that situation you can justify it. Casting the WW as broken, weak, with FOO and self-esteem issues. They felt unloved. Insecure. etc etc. And then this evil OM came along a took advantage of this poor confused woman. Look at all of these issues she has, it was bound to happen. She was the victim in this situation. And now the BH can recast himself as the forgiving husband rescuing his wife from both herself and the OM. The BH can now view himself as the knight in shining Armour. He saved the marriage.

And if this approach works for the BH then great, more power too him. 

Whether or not this approach will work for Cam, that is up to him to decide. 

Sometimes we all get locked into our positions. Guys who did the above think hey I did it and it worked out, you can do it too. Guys who left the cheater and it worked out for them also think, hey it worked for me, you can do it too.

Cam, I would just say again to detach and figure out what you want first. Then decide how to get there.


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## ConanHub

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> 'The quality of mercy is not strained. It drops as the gentle rain from heaven Upon the place beneath. Rather is twiced blessed. It blessed by him that gives mercy and by she that receives mercy".-Unknown
> 
> "So sure of yourself so strong you are xxxxx. No tolerance at all for any weak individual such as your wife"-My MC making it real.


I will say this Cam. This man has some good advice and examples for you.

I am brutal but honest in my assessments. I don't retract any statement I have made and believe them to be true.

Acknowledging what I perceive to be true doesn't mean I disregard experienced advice.

I can look at ugly, your wife, and call her a spade, she is, and still consider solid advice from a good man like this one.

I don't respect his wife or yours but I respect him.

You can be strong in this situation and for your children, you have to be. That doesn't mean R or D.

I'm not encouraging you in either direction. I encourage health.

Be healthy for your children first, then you and then for your mate. If your mate ends up being your retarded wife then so be it if it is healthy.

I still think a damn hard spanking should be in the future!😉😈😁


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## Mr Blunt

> *By sokillme*
> What exactly is mercy? Certainly you are not saying stay in the marriage to show mercy?


Sokillme, I do not know how much experience you have with R or D but mercy can be a benefit to the BS and the whole family in an R situation. You stated that mercy is


> Mercy is not getting revenge and going out and doing the same thing to her that she did to him. It is not, preventing her from having fear.


Some of us have additional definitions of mercy. I will speak for myself in this matter and tell you that mercy for me is	` Mercy--not getting what you do deserve 

Cam tells us that he loves his wife, leans in the direction of R, and does not want to harm the family. That being the case then Cam can show his STRENGTH and give mercy so that she will continue to repent. I say this because of the quotes below:

Rom 2:4 (Phi) Are you, perhaps, misinterpreting God's generosity and patient mercy towards you as weakness on his part? Don't you realize that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?


Heb 4:16 (Phi) Let us therefore approach the throne of grace with fullest confidence, that we may receive mercy for our failures and grace to help in the hour of need.


Sokillme, you may not believe the words of the Bible but I do. It would be hypocritical of me to not show mercy for others but when it comes to my failures I want mercy.

Just so you know, I can understand how hurt one can be over being betrayed and want consequences for the betrayer. You see my wife did pretty much what Cam’s wife did and we have been in R for over 25 years. * I can also tell you that I have a good life with my wife and children.* However, I want God’s mercy for me more than I want to give the betrayer the FULL consequences with added pain to the betraying spouse.

Matthew 5:7
God blesses those who are merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

For me it boils down to believing God’s promises including his rewarding the one who strives to please Him.* I gave my wife mercy and remarried her and God has blessed me.* So in a way I did it more for me than for her. However, I know that I have shown my wife some mercy and have pleased God by my act of mercy.

Sokillme, maybe you have not had failures and do not need mercy but I sure do and I try to always be guided by the principles of a loving God because it will benefit me and my family.


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## manfromlamancha

I thought I would pipe in and offer my tuppence worth.

I often think about what is going through a WW's mind at the point of committing infidelity.

The first is a combination of ego being boosted, pure old fashioned lust, attention, and false self-entitlement.

So with all of this coming in what goes out is the feeling of being in love with the spouse and more importantly, a complete lack of respect for the spouse. It isn't always evident at the time (even to the wayward), but the respect is completely lost. This is fed in drip-feed fashion by an emotional affair, but once the sex starts and the new dopamine's kick in, bonding to the AP increases at a much faster rate and the affair spirals out of control well into the "fog"/addiction phase.

Now there are some spouses that stop this at the point of losing respect for the spouse. They have the strength to pull back and question their actions. They manage to remember the goodness as well as the attractiveness of the spouse. Strength of character pulls them through. Some (many) don't have this strength.

In the case of Mrs. Cam (as well as Mrs. LH IMO), they did not have this strength. Might they have it now ? I don't think so. What they have is a healthy dose of fear, regret and at a stretch, maybe some form of new found attraction. Nothing like it was before though.

That is why some here say, that the BS going into a reconciliation, has the lesser deal. This is because the repercussions for the cheaters is at best some exposure leading to shame and maybe even loss of respect by kids (this is nothing for someone who has been fuelled by lust/ego kibbles/dopamines etc etc before to cope with). On the other hand, the BS has to know (deep down) that the newly restored affection is not the same as before and is actually quite a bit less and dressed up to look like its more, that the respect was once completely lost and maybe there now (no one really knows) but to a much lesser extent, that the trust in their WW is shattered for all time and that the WW is stepping on glass around them to avoid triggers etc for the rest of their lives.

Getting divorced in comparison is an easier deal especially if the WW makes it easy for them. Getting remarried then would seem to lead to a better result than R.

So LH seems to have handled his R as best as anyone can. Was it the best result for him - I don't think so, but it seems to be OK.

Cam, you face the same choice - an OK marriage going forward with all the shortcomings I described above or a chance to D and maybe remarry if you see fit and have less pain long term.

As for those that say they reconciled after an affair and this led to a much stronger relationship they are either looking at this from a WW's POV (they need to really dig deep into the soul of the BS who is often lying to him or her self) or they truly are a very odd exception.


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## ConanHub

drifting on said:


> Cam
> 
> I am not advocating for reconciliation, I've said she isn't ready yet. She is ready for tough questioning, and perhaps that needs to be done on Valentine's Day. Your wife isn't remorseful yet, she's regretful, and with her comment of nothing to lose, well that needs to be investigated by you. What I'm saying is, from my vantage point it comes across to me as she is moping about like a victim. Sort of like, I lost my affair partner, I've lost my husband, I've lost my kids, oh woe is me. If she is doing this then serve her at work, strictly for shock treatment to get her out of her poor me crap. If she is genuine, then reconsider serving her at work. Only you know what way she is, genuine or poor me.
> 
> You need to ask her about the how do I look as she knew she was going to meet OM. Ask her what she would feel if you did that? Could she move past that? Ask her if she ever tried to stop the affair? Not thought of, but actually tried to stop. If not, why? Next ask her what she would feel if you had an affair and you did because you felt like roommates. I believe this was said strictly to rationalize her affair, not that your marriage was this way. Next, perhaps you can contact OMW, have her call your wife's phone from OM's phone at a time you will be together. If she answers or says nothing this shows she still wants him. Information that would be good for both you and OMW to know.
> 
> Ask her how many times they had sex. Did she think of you ever? Did she think about her kids? Did she think if everyone knew what would they think of her? Will she take a polygraph? Just because, it's for shock. Ask about the paternity of the kids, again, for shock. Then ask her one final question, why should I stay married to you? This question hurts bad, my wife cried so hard I actually began to think you could die from crying. This question hits them in their soul, and while some may say it's mean, it's actually her self reflecting to see any qualities in herself.
> 
> I've said before your talks will be raw and difficult. This isn't punishing her but rather you getting truth. It's a hard road either way Cam, and difficult situations are what you will be having for the next month. I wish I could tell you differently, but I can't lie to you either.


QFT.

The line of questioning in this post is excellent.


----------



## drifting on

Cam

Much for you to digest has been written in some very good posts on your thread. It appears that every stone is being turned and every issue addressed. For you to reconcile, this is what you will be doing for a good two to five years. Do you think your wife has it in her to travel this long road? Do you think you do? All the while raising your children and coping with the normal life stresses that life offers. You don't get a vacation, there isn't one day it's not difficult, you will need to find strength you never thought you had. But if you have a doubt at all, your chances for a healthy reconciliation and life won't be there at the end.

Your choice to divorce or reconcile can only be made from a position of strength. Many have posted that a betrayed spouse can't reconcile from a position of strength. But what I feel is overlooked or seen as a mistake, is that the the marriage isn't the strength, the strength comes from within you. Terrible transgressions have been laid at your feet, that isn't disputed, can you accept these transgressions and move forward in a healthy manner? Acceptance is ultimately what has to be done, then you need to cope with that acceptance, then learn to move forward in a manner that is healthy to your entire family. 

If you choose to reconcile the road is long and hard. This isn't a newly paved road free of potholes or speed bumps. In fact I would say it's the opposite, it's a gravel road where you can't speed up or slow down. You can't turn off or turn around, you have to commit to driving to the end. If you can't do this, then reconciliation is going to cause more harm and pain to your family. Your mindset going forward in reconciliation, is that you can handle, cope with, and still build a foundation of strength for any situation that arises. You are not at that place yet for many good reasons. If you choose to reconcile Cam, and it can be done in your situation, you need to change also. 

It is only natural that at this point of the process you are guarding your heart. Your wife is guarding hers also, for she may lose all that she thought she would never lose. If you choose to reconcile, there is no guarding of your hearts, no fear of what you both might do. You need to lose the fear she may hurt you again, she is human, and she will hurt you again. It may or may not be another affair, but she will hurt you again. You Cam, will also hurt your wife again, as you are human too, and she needs to accept this. At any time you can choose to divorce her and move on with your life. 

Fear is something that can kill your reconciliation, and starting reconciliation from fear is the worst way forward. I have said you aren't ready to reconcile above, and it's true, I don't think you have learned that you will be ok with whatever you decide. You don't truly know you will be ok without your wife. This is shown by your guarding of your heart, it's a form of protection from your brain, to minimize more pain you may feel. If you knew you would be ok without your wife, you wouldn't have a need to protect your heart. Your wife wouldn't be guarding hers also.

This is why IC is so important for you, to find yourself and then make a healthy choice free from emotions and feelings. This comes with time, which is why I recommend waiting the six months. I'm not saying to stay in limbo, what I'm saying is to firmly decide from a position of strength. A position without any doubt or fear, as that is resolved when you find you are ok within yourself. During the six months you may feel you are leaning towards reconciliation or divorce, and that pendulum may swing both ways quickly or slowly. Currently you say it's towards reconciliation, but tomorrow she may take an action that swings towards divorce. Such as you finding out she breaks no contact again. It's truly a volital time for you and your family, the water is choppy and you need to right your craft towards the mainland. It's not easy, even if she becomes the most remorseful and perfect wife ever seen, you will still have difficulties.

Hopefully what I have written won't sway your mind either way, it is meant that you choose knowing what is in front of you with knowledge. That you know what you will encounter, and that you will need to prepare yourself for an act that is very difficult to take. I have questioned my own decision many times over, but I have become a healthier person, and I have become a better person then I was before. My wife has also grown and become healthier, and she will tell you it's very difficult too. 

Much has been spoken about mercy, it will also play a part in reconciliation. Mercy is my belief that you don't destroy someone when it is so easy to do. Now your wife could be destroyed to the pong she may never recover quite easily. This was the case for my wife also, and you, like me, did not destroy them. Instead of giving mercy, maybe give her grace instead. This is what I did for my wife, I gave her grace. Grace to me is, an undeserved favor no matter the repercussions brought unto you. I'm not trying to push religion onto you, but God grants all of us both mercy and grace. 

Cam, your future is very much in turmoil as you can see. Wait the six months and see how the both of you are in that time. From there I think you can then make the best decision for both you and your family.


----------



## 225985

manfromlamancha said:


> I thought I would pipe in and offer my tuppence worth.
> 
> I often think about what is going through a WW's mind at the point of committing infidelity.
> 
> The first is a combination of ego being boosted, pure old fashioned lust, attention, and false self-entitlement.
> 
> So with all of this coming in what goes out is the feeling of being in love with the spouse and more importantly, a complete lack of respect for the spouse. It isn't always evident at the time (even to the wayward), but the respect is completely lost. This is fed in drip-feed fashion by an emotional affair, but once the sex starts and the new dopamine's kick in, bonding to the AP increases at a much faster rate and the affair spirals out of control well into the "fog"/addiction phase.
> 
> Now there are some spouses that stop this at the point of losing respect for the spouse. They have the strength to pull back and question their actions. They manage to remember the goodness as well as the attractiveness of the spouse. Strength of character pulls them through. Some (many) don't have this strength.
> 
> In the case of Mrs. Cam (as well as Mrs. LH IMO), they did not have this strength. Might they have it now ? I don't think so. What they have is a healthy dose of fear, regret and at a stretch, maybe some form of new found attraction. Nothing like it was before though.
> 
> That is why some here say, that the BS going into a reconciliation, has the lesser deal. This is because the repercussions for the cheaters is at best some exposure leading to shame and maybe even loss of respect by kids (this is nothing for someone who has been fuelled by lust/ego kibbles/dopamines etc etc before to cope with). On the other hand, the BS has to know (deep down) that the newly restored affection is not the same as before and is actually quite a bit less and dressed up to look like its more, that the respect was once completely lost and maybe there now (no one really knows) but to a much lesser extent, that the trust in their WW is shattered for all time and that the WW is stepping on glass around them to avoid triggers etc for the rest of their lives.
> 
> Getting divorced in comparison is an easier deal especially if the WW makes it easy for them. Getting remarried then would seem to lead to a better result than R.
> 
> So LH seems to have handled his R as best as anyone can. Was it the best result for him - I don't think so, but it seems to be OK.
> 
> Cam, you face the same choice - an OK marriage going forward with all the shortcomings I described above or a chance to D and maybe remarry if you see fit and have less pain long term.
> 
> As for those that say they reconciled after an affair and this led to a much stronger relationship they are either looking at this from a WW's POV (they need to really dig deep into the soul of the BS who is often lying to him or her self) or they truly are a very odd exception.




For Cam's benefit to know, have you seen any threads here in which the couple divorces after infidelity and then goes on to marry again?

In my ignorance i would think that in nearly every case once the divorce happens chances of R are zero.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Actually, I have seen a couple here on TAM and some in other forums (in once case they didn't remarry but got back together). It certainly is the exception not the rule.


----------



## dubsey

manfromlamancha said:


> Actually, I have seen a couple here on TAM and some in other forums (in once case they didn't remarry but got back together). It certainly is the exception not the rule.


That'd be me. It's what works for me. I'll never re-marry anyone, but we live together again and are happy - but, it's different than what it was, and that's ok.


----------



## ConanHub

blueinbr said:


> For Cam's benefit to know, have you seen any threads here in which the couple divorces after infidelity and then goes on to marry again?
> 
> In my ignorance i would think that in nearly every case once the divorce happens chances of R are zero.


Mr. Blunt is one.

I would divorce but might give my ex a chance at competing to date and win me back.

I have seen it a couple times IRL as well.


----------



## Evinrude58

Did the polygrapher ask if she still loved the OM??????

What was her answer? Truthful?

I think this is the most important question. Because if she is still in love with the OM, the ONLY option here that will result in happiness for either of them is divorce.


----------



## sokillme

Mr Blunt said:


> Sokillme, I do not know how much experience you have with R or D but mercy can be a benefit to the BS and the whole family in an R situation. You stated that mercy is
> 
> 
> Some of us have additional definitions of mercy. I will speak for myself in this matter and tell you that mercy for me is	` Mercy--not getting what you do deserve
> 
> Cam tells us that he loves his wife, leans in the direction of R, and does not want to harm the family. That being the case then Cam can show his STRENGTH and give mercy so that she will continue to repent. I say this because of the quotes below:
> 
> Rom 2:4 (Phi) Are you, perhaps, misinterpreting God's generosity and patient mercy towards you as weakness on his part? Don't you realize that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
> 
> 
> Heb 4:16 (Phi) Let us therefore approach the throne of grace with fullest confidence, that we may receive mercy for our failures and grace to help in the hour of need.
> 
> 
> Sokillme, you may not believe the words of the Bible but I do. It would be hypocritical of me to not show mercy for others but when it comes to my failures I want mercy.
> 
> Just so you know, I can understand how hurt one can be over being betrayed and want consequences for the betrayer. You see my wife did pretty much what Cam’s wife did and we have been in R for over 25 years. * I can also tell you that I have a good life with my wife and children.* However, I want God’s mercy for me more than I want to give the betrayer the FULL consequences with added pain to the betraying spouse.
> 
> Matthew 5:7
> God blesses those who are merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
> 
> For me it boils down to believing God’s promises including his rewarding the one who strives to please Him.* I gave my wife mercy and remarried her and God has blessed me.* So in a way I did it more for me than for her. However, I know that I have shown my wife some mercy and have pleased God by my act of mercy.
> 
> Sokillme, maybe you have not had failures and do not need mercy but I sure do and I try to always be guided by the principles of a loving God because it will benefit me and my family.


Christian mercy doesn't mean you need to live with someone who abused you.

If you want to get technical before Jesus God's punishment for adultery was death. 

Leviticus 20:10 
"'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

So just divorcing, which is permitted by Jesus's own words, is plenty merciful enough. 


Matthew 19 
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

I am sure you know the the sexual immorality part is the out.

Jesus never says anything about staying with a cheater because in his time the cheater was dead so there was no need for a divorce. 

There was never any point in the Bible where God expected you to stay with and adulterer. 

Here is another one the Christians always leave out. In Jesus' time, you could just marry another more faithful wife and put your adulterous wife out to pasture. You wouldn't need to divorcee her. Would you think that is a sin today? Why exactly?

Now I don't agree with polygamy but it sure makes it easier to say you need to stay married, because if you get stuck with a lemon you can always get another one. 

Anyway besides all that, I am all for forgiveness but no need to stay married. Besides that I just don't think someone can love someone and do this to them, at least not in the way I understand love. If you want to tell me they can then their love is worthless anyway.

The number of Christians I have seen who are repeatedly abused thinking they are giving mercy is just sad. God gave you a life and dignity, you should protect it.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Christian mercy doesn't mean you need to live with someone who abused you.


*Agree100%*




> Here is another one the Christians always leave out. In Jesus' time, you could just marry another more faithful wife and put your adulterous wife out to pasture. You wouldn't need to divorcee her. Would you think that is a sin today? Why exactly?


If it was not a sin in Jesus time then just because we have a more modern society does not change that fact that it would not be a sin today. It will be against some of the laws of the USA but you asked about sin not USA laws.



Cam tells us that he loves his wife, leans in the direction of R, and does not want to harm the family.
Here below are some of the most recent posts by Cam that confirms that he is leaning towards R.


> I want to believe she's sincere I really do. I'm just so afraid of being hurt again.
> I am leaning towards reconciliation but it would have to be on my terms


That tells me that Cam is considering living with his wife. So your position that “Christian mercy does not mean you need to live with someone who abused you” does not apply in this situation. I know that Cam still has the option to D and not live with her but that is not his leanings’ right now; his leanings are to live with her.


Cam has told us that she is doing just about everything to try and get him better. In addition, she passed TWO Polygraphs and they verified that she was telling the truth. She did not love the other man but loved Cam. In addition Cam also said


> The wife was the kindest, sweetest, loyal person who I thought adored me and I did her.


Betrayal is the mother of all relationship killers and some are doomed to try and R. However, in Cam’s case it seems to me that Cam has a lot more to work with in terms of an R than many I have read on this forum.


----------



## Malaise

Cam has told us that she is doing just about everything to try and get him better. In addition, she passed TWO Polygraphs and they verified that she was telling the truth. *She did not love the other man but loved Cam*. 


And yet...


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Cam has told us that she is doing just about everything to try and get him better. In addition, she passed TWO Polygraphs and they verified that she was telling the truth. She did not love the other man but loved Cam.
> 
> 
> And yet...


"and yet" she betrayed her family and banged the OM. Now she will pay for this for the rest of her life in that she lost something with Cam that probably cannot be restored. However, my point is that they do have a better chance at R than many I have read on this forum IMO


----------



## Evinrude58

Malaise said:


> Cam has told us that she is doing just about everything to try and get him better. In addition, she passed TWO Polygraphs and they verified that she was telling the truth. *She did not love the other man but loved Cam*.
> 
> 
> And yet...


I must have missed where the polygraph said she was being truthful when she said she didn't live the OM.
That's indeed interesting.

I do think it's definitely possible to reconcile with this woman. I just am having a hard time as a person on the outside looking in, believing that she loves OP NOW and not the 6 months that she was grinning, asking how she looked, and doing another man.

It's unfathomable to me that she could still live him while obviously being in love with another man just weeks before and ignoring her husband she supposedly loves.
Either she is a psycho that enjoys sex and has no emotional connection with the OM, it she's in love with two men at the same time. Apparently for 6 months, OP was still loved, but not as much or in the same way as the OM.

If you want to reconcile OP, I hope you can figure out where her heart lies, and if with you, if there's still room for other men.


----------



## Malaise

Mr Blunt said:


> "and yet" she betrayed her family and banged the OM. Now she will pay for this for the rest of her life in that she lost something with Cam that probably cannot be restored. However, my point is that they do have a better chance at R than many I have read on this forum IMO


What would she have done if she didn't love him?


----------



## sokillme

Mr Blunt said:


> *Betrayal is the mother of all relationship killers and some are doomed to try and R. However, in Cam’s case it seems to me that Cam has a lot more to work with in terms of an R than many I have read on this forum.*


*

A months worth of I'm sorrys will do that for you huh? Sorry no one treats me like discarded garbage and gets my love again. I am worth more to that. Love and being married is SO not worth that. Some times it OK for things in life to end. Sometimes it's good an healthy.

All of you R guys never ask what kind of a person she is. Why are you guys always so ready to spend the rest of your life with a person who could do something so awful to you or anyone really? To me this is just continuing a pattern that must have been set in the very beginning of the relationship. I think there is something to be said for the fact that a person stays with someone who does something so awful and the fact that that the person they stay with would DO something so awful in the first place. I think the pattern of abuse has already established and accepted and this is just more of the same.

It's not healthy, it's like the abused woman who forgives her husband who just punched her in the face the day before. This is the dynamic. I would never recommend that mercy or not.*


----------



## sokillme

Mr Blunt said:


> "and yet" she betrayed her family and banged the OM. Now she will pay for this for the rest of her life in that she lost something with Cam that probably cannot be restored. However, my point is that they do have a better chance at R than many I have read on this forum IMO


And Cam will pay the price for the rest of his life. And will continue to pay it worse if he stays.


----------



## eric1

I do think Cam will pay a price for her selfishness for years to come. However, you can successfully reconcile. LonelyHusband is a great example.


----------



## Malaise

Correct if I'm wrong...

Doesn't LH suffer from PTSD which made him distance himself from his W and made her seek intimacy elsewhere?

That wasn't Cam if I remember correctly.

Cam's W just wanted a thrill.

Again, if I'm wrong tell me.

Apologies to LH in advance if it's so.


----------



## drifting on

Cam

As you take time to find yourself, self reflect to heal yourself, to become a whole and better person, to return to a healthy state, remember that reconciling or divorce will mean you are strong. For some posters there beliefs will have you believe reconciliation is the only answer, others will say divorce is the only answer, but truly not enough time has passed to make that decision without emotions and feelings. Be sure to take your time, know what you can accept and what you can't accept, discuss you in IC. Get yourself to a healthy place mentally, physically, and spiritually if you have a faith. 

A few days ago you triggered with your wife pleasuring you. Expect this to happen more, until you discuss this with your wife. In my case, the sex my wife had with OM was better to her, I couldn't compete in reality, it was a new relationship. My wife and I were married sixteen years when she had her affair. The newness had eroded away, we knew each other very well, how do I compete with new? The answer is you can't, and if you choose to reconcile you will have to accept this. I'm not sure you have thought this far down the road yet, but you will need to know this before you reconcile. You stated that while pleasuring you she seemed very into it, which leads me to believe it had been some time since this happened with you. Reality is she was this way with OM each time, may have done things with OM she wouldn't do for you. This is what you must consider and accept if you choose to reconcile. I tell you this so you know what will happen on the path to reconcile, and so you know the difficulties involved. 

Reconciliation is not for the weak, you must be strong and lead when you are feeling at your worst. This isn't easy, as all of life's struggles are not placed on hold. Reconciliation will test you to your very limits, it will be hard, but in my case so far, it's worth it. I have been happier, I'm learning to relax, I've found myself again even after I now see how lost I truly was. I have found I'm a better person now, I'm healthier, and my attitude towards life more positive. For quite some time I wondered if I would ever feel this way again, but I have, and I have my original family. I wouldn't trade my decision at all, I did what was best for me. Some don't see how I could have chosen as I did, they won't with you either, we all have our own opinions and beliefs. 

In my opinion cam you need some answers, and they are going to be hard to hear. You need to know if she was more sexual with OM, did things with him she refused to do with you and why. You need to know who knew of the affair, friends, coworkers, family, whatever. This has been addressed several times and seems to be ignored by you. You don't need to say if friends or whatever knew, but it would help posters to give better advice if we knew it was addressed. It's important for you to know who is toxic to your marriage and who is not. 

It's my opinion Cam that your marriage can have a successful reconciliation. You could also have a successful and favorable divorce. All of this is entirely your choice, to be made in a few months down the road. I will caution you on this though, even if your wife concedes to give you all you want in a divorce, any novice attorney can argue the decisions were made under duress. This means that much of what she says now will be decided by a judge if the agreement is to much on your favor. I advise to discuss this aspect with your attorney to have a better platform to decide from.


----------



## ConanHub

Damn! @drifting on

She told you she liked sex better with the ******* than you?

Your whole situation is unacceptable but this is one more pathetic twist!

I would require a remedy to that f'd up situation.

I don't know about your sexual history but mine was extensive. If my wife cheated and told me some bvll**** that she liked sex with an a hole more than me I would point out she wasn't very damn good herself.

Sex is mental mostly. She needs to get good at proving herself in bed to you and working to get her fulfillment as well.

Mrs. Conan wasn't close to the best I had when we first got together but we worked it and improved.

She failed in every f'ing part of your marriage! Not you!

Argh!!!


----------



## sokillme

eric1 said:


> I do think Cam will pay a price for her selfishness for years to come. However, you can successfully reconcile. LonelyHusband is a great example.


LH is still suffering. It's quite obvious in his posts.


----------



## drifting on

ConanHub said:


> Damn! @drifting on
> 
> She told you she liked sex better with the ******* than you?
> 
> Your whole situation is unacceptable but this is one more pathetic twist!
> 
> I would require a remedy to that f'd up situation.
> 
> I don't know about your sexual history but mine was extensive. If my wife cheated and told me some bvll**** that she liked sex with an a hole more than me I would point out she wasn't very damn good herself.
> 
> Sex is mental mostly. She needs to get good at proving herself in bed to you and working to get her fulfillment as well.
> 
> Mrs. Conan wasn't close to the best I had when we first got together but we worked it and improved.
> 
> She failed in every f'ing part of your marriage! Not you!
> 
> Argh!!!




No, she never said that it was better, but in my mind it only could be better because of the newness. Something I spent a long time discussing in therapy. Sorry for being responsible for your blood pressure spike!!


----------



## Nucking Futs

Evinrude58 said:


> *I must have missed where the polygraph said she was being truthful when she said she didn't live the OM.*
> That's indeed interesting.
> 
> I do think it's definitely possible to reconcile with this woman. I just am having a hard time as a person on the outside looking in, believing that she loves OP NOW and not the 6 months that she was grinning, asking how she looked, and doing another man.
> 
> It's unfathomable to me that she could still live him while obviously being in love with another man just weeks before and ignoring her husband she supposedly loves.
> Either she is a psycho that enjoys sex and has no emotional connection with the OM, it she's in love with two men at the same time. Apparently for 6 months, OP was still loved, but not as much or in the same way as the OM.
> 
> If you want to reconcile OP, I hope you can figure out where her heart lies, and if with you, if there's still room for other men.


That's not a valid question for a polygraph. If you polygraph someone about their emotional state at some time in the past their current emotional state is where the answer will come from, and they'll believe what they're saying. A good polygrapher will tell you not to waste one of your questions on that.


----------



## sokillme

drifting on said:


> Cam
> 
> As you take time to find yourself, self reflect to heal yourself, to become a whole and better person, to return to a healthy state, remember that reconciling or divorce will mean you are strong. For some posters there beliefs will have you believe reconciliation is the only answer, others will say divorce is the only answer, but truly not enough time has passed to make that decision without emotions and feelings. Be sure to take your time, know what you can accept and what you can't accept, discuss you in IC. Get yourself to a healthy place mentally, physically, and spiritually if you have a faith.
> 
> A few days ago you triggered with your wife pleasuring you. Expect this to happen more, until you discuss this with your wife. In my case, the sex my wife had with OM was better to her, I couldn't compete in reality, it was a new relationship. My wife and I were married sixteen years when she had her affair. The newness had eroded away, we knew each other very well, how do I compete with new? The answer is you can't, and if you choose to reconcile you will have to accept this. I'm not sure you have thought this far down the road yet, but you will need to know this before you reconcile. You stated that while pleasuring you she seemed very into it, which leads me to believe it had been some time since this happened with you. Reality is she was this way with OM each time, may have done things with OM she wouldn't do for you. This is what you must consider and accept if you choose to reconcile. I tell you this so you know what will happen on the path to reconcile, and so you know the difficulties involved.
> 
> Reconciliation is not for the weak, you must be strong and lead when you are feeling at your worst. This isn't easy, as all of life's struggles are not placed on hold. Reconciliation will test you to your very limits, it will be hard, but in my case so far, it's worth it. I have been happier, I'm learning to relax, I've found myself again even after I now see how lost I truly was. I have found I'm a better person now, I'm healthier, and my attitude towards life more positive. For quite some time I wondered if I would ever feel this way again, but I have, and I have my original family. I wouldn't trade my decision at all, I did what was best for me. Some don't see how I could have chosen as I did, they won't with you either, we all have our own opinions and beliefs.
> 
> In my opinion cam you need some answers, and they are going to be hard to hear. You need to know if she was more sexual with OM, did things with him she refused to do with you and why. You need to know who knew of the affair, friends, coworkers, family, whatever. This has been addressed several times and seems to be ignored by you. You don't need to say if friends or whatever knew, but it would help posters to give better advice if we knew it was addressed. It's important for you to know who is toxic to your marriage and who is not.
> 
> It's my opinion Cam that your marriage can have a successful reconciliation. You could also have a successful and favorable divorce. All of this is entirely your choice, to be made in a few months down the road. I will caution you on this though, even if your wife concedes to give you all you want in a divorce, any novice attorney can argue the decisions were made under duress. This means that much of what she says now will be decided by a judge if the agreement is to much on your favor. I advise to discuss this aspect with your attorney to have a better platform to decide from.


You paint a very bleak picture. I don't understand what the true benefit is for you guys who stay. All I can see is that you don't have to start over. I guess I get the kids a little but almost 50% of kids in the western world are in the same boat.


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
There is much debate over whether or not R is an ultimately viable option. It most certainly can be but in order for it to be successful it requires you to reset your thoughts. Your wife was very selfish and inconsiderate in her behavior and I have gone on ad nauseam about why and how she was able to do that so I will not continue to flog that deceased equine. What I will tell you is that if you sincerely desire any chance of a successful R then YOUR thought process must change. You viewed the woman that was your wife as something she was not, therefore, in a very real way, that woman actually never existed but was rather a creation of your hopes, desires and expectations.

She was, for reasons previously explained, incapable of living up to the criteria that you had set for her in your mind. In a sense it was your psyche that actually betrayed you. It is a matter of perception. For instance, if you have need of a rope and you find a piece that looks, from all outward appearances, as though it is solid and dependable and you decide to use it without further inspection or observation then you are placing faith in that rope based on the limited knowledge you have of it and of its actual strength. We all do it, it is called trust but in true reality it is not the ropes "fault" that you placed trust in it. And, if the rope breaks and causes you injury it was simply behaving in a manner consistent with its capabilities.

Now understand that this post is not about assessing blame or fault it is merely an attempt to point out a different perspective that you may not have considered. You are now painfully aware that the rope was not what you perceived it to be. That rope is now broken and has been discarded. Your task now is to look at this new piece of rope with greater scrutiny and suspicion than your original observations. If this "rope" can, by virtue of real hard evidence and your careful consideration thereof, "prove" its strength, dependability and suitability for your needs then you can be better assured of its trustworthiness.

In so doing, you must not see the rope as the old rope but must instead realize that this is a new rope altogether. In order for the new rope to perform to your needs its characteristics and qualities must be different and not the same as the old rope. Therefore, comparing the new rope to the old rope because they look similar is not prudent for the new rope has significantly different characteristics. If you cannot be shown, beyond reasonable doubt, that the new rope is indeed different and worthy of your trust then it would not be at all prudent to put your trust in that rope again. However, if you are convinced, to the extent possible, that the new rope does indeed differ significantly from the old, then you must realize that the old rope no longer exists and that comparing the two is unreasonable since they differ greatly.

So, going forward, the mind movies and disgust that you feel will apply to the old rope and not to the new rope. By establishing this delineation between old and new you can mourn the loss of the old W and accept that the New W represents different characteristics and qualities.

There will be some here who will see what I have said as assigning the blame for the A to you and relieving your W from accountability but that is not it at all. What you are guilty of is the same thing we are all guilty of and that is bestowing trust in someone. We expect them to cherish and honor that trust, their word and their integrity but, in some instances, they are ill prepared to do so. That is why I point this out so that you understand that unless you are more careful, observant and conscious of the qualities and characteristics of the new woman, beit your W or not, you are destined to walk this path again.

If, however, you can be persuaded through her diligent efforts and demonstrations, that she is indeed transformed then comparing her to the old W is neither beneficial nor warranted. If you are still comparing her to the old then you are either not yet convinced of her transformation or you are projecting old behavior onto new rope. If the latter is the case, then it falls to you to realign your thinking to match the new parameters. If the former is the case, then you need more convincing which means her work is not done. Only you, with careful consideration can determine that but I would guess that her work will not be done for quite some time.


----------



## ABHale

Hey Cam, I went back through your post and it might be me but, I see no guilt or real remorse from your wife. I might be mistaken and you see her everyday. From what you are posting though I do not see it. I see she is trying to fix the damage she has caused and that she is sorry she got caught, but not sorry for what she did. 

If I am wrong Cam forgive, it is just the way I am reading it.


----------



## eric1

sokillme said:


> LH is still suffering. It's quite obvious in his posts.




What are you even ranting on about now? 

There is literally nothing in his posts that indicates anything other than a husband a year out from reconciliation.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

eric1 said:


> What are you even ranting on about now?
> 
> There is literally nothing in his posts that indicates anything other than a husband a year out from reconciliation.


I am not suffering by any means. Have a few triggers now and then but that is normal. I think I am pretty damn happy for the most part. My marriage is going better, my daughter is recovering, my son is engaged, and turkey season is on its way.
Nope. I am a long way from where I was 15 months ago. So Kill Me, please do not try to say I am what I am not.:smile2:

When the going gets tough, the tough get going.


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## GusPolinski

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> I am not suffering by any means. Have a few triggers now and then but that is normal. I think I am pretty damn happy for the most part. My marriage is going better, my daughter is recovering, my son is engaged, and turkey season is on its way.
> Nope. I am a long way from where I was 15 months ago. So Kill Me, please do not try to say I am what I am not.:smile2:
> 
> When the going gets tough, the tough get going.


Your nephew ever divorce?


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

ABHale said:


> Hey Cam, I went back through your post and it might be me but, I see no guilt or mmmreal remorse from your wife. I might be mistaken and you see her everyday. From what you are posting though I do not see it. I see she is trying to fix the damage she has caused and that she is sorry she got caught, but not sorry for what she did.
> 
> If I am wrong Cam forgive, it is just the way I am reading it.


Respectfully, AB, I sense remorse is setting in. Reality has arrived full force and consequences are being experienced and. She sees the damage too the family she caused. She is desperate now trying to out it all back together quickly, but it takes time to repair a shattered heart of a betrayed spouse. I think she is sorry for what she did. I see a few similarities in his wife and mine.
MC helped my wife realize the same thing I told Cam. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Thankfully, things have fallen into place for us. Cam can do the same as I provided his wife does the right things. :smile2:


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

GusPolinski said:


> Your nephew ever divorce?


Yes, and he is in Montana doing well soon to be joined by my daughter. His ex was dumped by the ol Dr. Richard Cranium I found out. Karma Gus.


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## ABHale

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Respectfully, AB, I sense remorse is setting in. Reality has arrived full force and consequences are being experienced and. She sees the damage too the family she caused. She is desperate now trying to out it all back together quickly, but it takes time to repair a shattered heart of a betrayed spouse. I think she is sorry for what she did. I see a few similarities in his wife and mine.
> MC helped my wife realize the same thing I told Cam. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Thankfully, things have fallen into place for us. Cam can do the same as I provided his wife does the right things. :smile2:


I just don't see it Devil Dog. Yes she is trying to fix what she has done. But she is not remorseful. She has no guilt for the affair. She has guilt for hurting the family. This is what I mean. I still believe your wife got her kick and was able to get you to stay. Sorry LH, but that is the way I see it. 

Hope no hard feelings LH.


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## 225985

*Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



sokillme said:


> LH is still suffering. It's quite obvious in his posts.




As are you. And many others here, even ones that divorced.


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## 3putt

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



blueinbr said:


> As are you. And many others here, even ones that divorced.


Yeah, there's something about this thread that's triggering the hell out of skm. Look at the top 3 post count on it:

sokillme-	168
drifting on-	54
cam42-	49

Feeling bad for you, skm.


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## Rubix Cubed

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



3putt said:


> Yeah, there's something about this thread that's triggering the hell out of skm. Look at the top 3 post count on it:
> 
> sokillme-	168
> drifting on-	54
> cam42-	49
> 
> Feeling bad for you, skm.


 Where can you find the post breakdown like that?


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## sokillme

I'm not triggered, I am trying to keep him from making a mistake. Since there is about 10 pro R's on here I have to post twice as much. Someone needs to present the other view.


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## 3putt

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



Rubix Cubed said:


> Where can you find the post breakdown like that?


To the right of any thread on any board there is a number indicating how many posts are on it. Just click on that.


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## 3putt

sokillme said:


> I'm not triggered, I am trying to keep him from making a mistake. Since there is about 10 pro R's on here I have to post twice as much. Someone needs to present the other view.


Okay, if you say so.


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## TX-SC

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



sokillme said:


> I'm not triggered, I am trying to keep him from making a mistake. Since there is about 10 pro R's on here I have to post twice as much. Someone needs to present the other view.


I don't think it's as much a matter of being pro R as it is being open to the possibility. Most of us are not saying he should R. We are saying that if he chooses to R, we think he can make it work. 

If he posts tomorrow saying he just can't R, it's too hard, I would be one of the first to tell him to do what he needs to do. If it's D, then let us know if he need some advice on that (I've never divorced, so I would leave that to others to help with). 

All I've ever said is that she appears to be showing remorse. Take it slowly and be watchful. If she continues to do what is needed, he can probably save the marriage, IF HE WANTS TO. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## straightshooter

Well, nothing unusual here guys the way this is going. This thread drew a lot of attention and now it has followed the usual path of folks debating what their feeling is of remorse, regret, divorce, reconciliation. For those of you that were on SI for the infamous "Space Ghost" thread, the man announced in his first two posts he was divorcing, why he weas divorcing, and that it was final in his mind. He then announced his plan for serving his wife, and what followed was almost 1000 more posts arguing whether he was right or wrong, some getting very heated with each other. In the end, it changed nothing about what he did. Same is happening here.

This is not any exact science. It seems pretty obvious, Cam is going the R route and if he winds up in D it will because he discovers something more inadvertently. He has stopped digging, not pressing more on her friends or co workers involvement, and just my opinion unless he already knows that and is not saying, I think it is because he knows in his heart any more "bad" info will end the R process. That's his call. We're debating with ourselves here at this point. We all know his wife would have eagerly continued this affair, she got dumped, and now she is in desparate mode. Where that falls in to remorse from regret is impossible for any of us to know.

Again, if you remember the Space Ghost thread, he got her on the VAR after asking her multiple times telling her girlfriend how much fun she was having swith her boss, was told to deny and keep denying, and then when she collapsed on the floor at work from being served and told their children herself, another 100 or 200 threads about how remorseful she was. Bull **** to me but about 50-50 divided, just like here.

So Cam as to know and does his marriage is going to take a long long time to heal because of the way it all came down and her behavior after. Hopefully, he won't be one of these guys who three years later is so miserable he then walks.

This one is a done deal. You are all smart guys. Unless she breaks NC again here there is no D. Let it go. And that comes from someone who thinks hes jumping to quick to R and does not buy the remorse. Doesn't matter what I think.


----------



## drifting on

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



3putt said:


> Yeah, there's something about this thread that's triggering the hell out of skm. Look at the top 3 post count on it:
> 
> sokillme-	168
> drifting on-	54
> cam42-	49
> 
> Feeling bad for you, skm.





I have thought about this, and I don't know if it's triggering or the fact that people say those that reconcile can't do so from strength. Much of the advice Cam has been given is to divorce then date his wife. This has even been said after he said he is leaning towards reconciling. In fact the divorce talk heated up even more after Cam said that. From every post I've written on this thread I have advised to wait before making a decision. That would seem to me as I'm not triggering so much as opposed to trying to help Cam. At the same time a workplace affair pisses me off to no end, because that is what happened to me. So I truthfully can't say it's triggering or that I hate workplace affairs so much.

Bottom line is that I am on this thread to help Cam, I feel what he is going through and just want him to make a decision so that it is what is best for him. I have cautioned him that his wife is regretful is close to remorse, I have told him reconciliation is difficult. And in many posts to wait six months before deciding so the decision isn't an emotional one. I think Cam could be happy in the future if he divorced or reconciles, so long as his wife continues to work on herself. I think that @LonelyHusband has given Cam some insightful posts to learn from, as have others. 

Whatever Cam decides I will support him, but if he chooses divorce my posts may decline. I am not versed in that area so others would be able to help more. I also posted for Cam to check with his lawyer about his wife giving Cam what he wants in a divorce as it could be argued she was/is under duress. I have explained to Cam that if he chooses reconciliation what he will have to accept, what he will have to move past, and I do this so he has as complete a picture as possible. So in the end I still don't know if it's triggering or anger over something I hate with every ounce of my being.


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## 225985

*Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*



sokillme said:


> I'm not triggered, I am trying to keep him from making a mistake. Since there is about 10 pro R's on here I have to post twice as much. Someone needs to present the other view.




It's not a competition. We all are here to help Cam and should addressing him, not debating each other. It's not about post count. Each person can state their advice to Cam. 

Cam,

I find here that the posters will react and typically follow the mood of your thread. If you post that your wife is cheating, and still secretive, most will say divorce her. 

If you write that she is regretful or remorseful, you will get a lot more support for R. 

Fortunately you have no time limit. I don't support the divorce then date approach. If you divorce you are done. 

You can try R and if it doesn't work, then D. 

There is no advice that is perfect. Although infidelity is common, unfortunately, your situation is unique as is your family. 

Posters will tell you your wife is not remorseful. We can't see everything. We only know what you type. Only you know if your wife is sorrowful or full of guilt. 

Good luck


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

sokillme said:


> I'm not triggered, I am trying to keep him from making a mistake. Since there is about 10 pro R's on here I have to post twice as much. Someone needs to present the other view.


May I ask how you are so certain Cam 42 will or is making a mistake? None of us know what is in his wife's heart nor can we look her in the eye as Cam has. Only Cam knows. I will say the veracity and ferociousness of some of your posts leaves me to believe you are the one suffering. I sense an extreme amount of turmoil within you from Your posts. I hope if I am correct at some point you find inner peace. 

You puzzle me. You posts on my thread many months ago and seemed skeptical of what my wife did for me in July. She was most sincere and is most sncere in correcting as much as she can what she did to me. Cam's wife may be of the same mindset, but we do not and will not know. I do not wish to thread jack, but I sense Cam has found strength he did not know he possessed, and is doing things his way instead of her way.That is good, for the time being.

I keep seeing in you SKM what Farside so aptly named the " Torch and Pitchfork Brigade". Hell, I was there in the initial stages, but my chaplain friend opened my eyes to forgiveness and mercy, instead of my scorched earth course of action. Sooner or later you have to face reality and reality is letting go of the anger and pain. It only hurts you. Trust me I know. 

Cam42, I am going encourage you to follow what we are taught in the Corps...."improvise, adapt, and overcome", regardless of your decision do this for you to make a new and improved Cam. :wink2:


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## cam42

I really just noticed the amount of views on this thread and it really is incredible. I feel very thankful that so many people have given their opinions on my situation and have helped. I understand everyone that comments on this thread does so to help me whether they think I should divorce or reconcile. Like I said nothing has been decided, just because I am leaning towards reconciliation does not mean I will do it. Sometimes I just think about taking advantage of her guilt and getting most of our assets if we divorce. 

She has given me space, I think she is genuinely trying to work through her issues. That doesn't mean that I forgive her for what she's done, I most likely never will. If we R it will be a completely new relationship most likely. She has mentioned wanting to see a psych. Telling me she doesn't understand why she did what she did and it horrifies her looking back at it and she's concerned. But the IC she believes has been helping her a great deal. It was our daughters birthday and we had a nice dinner. Wife pulled me aside beforehand and told me she would understand if I didn't want her to go. I didn't see the harm it in I guess it was our middle daughter not the youngest one and she's her mom.

We had a nice dinner, although when the topic of pictures was discussed. She wanted to take a picture with me and my wife for snapchat kids these days lol. Well we took pictures and then my wife excused herself to the bathroom. Was taking quite awhile but our oldest went to go check on her and informed me her mother was in a stall crying evident by all her makeup getting messed up. She kept apologizing about it citing she wanted to do it alone and did not want to cause a scene and ruin her day. 

I feel like she is genuinely hurt, she will have to live with this for the rest of her life. Again I hate seeing her upset, but there's only so much I can do.


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## Evinrude58

Can do what you think is best for you.

Your wife was holding hands with the OM and happy as a lark having sex with him just weeks ago. Now, she suddenly is remorseful and Full of love for you.
You haven't changed!
So why all the love now?????

The only explanation is that she got dumped by her lover and wants her safety net to fall back in.

The question is, will she stay in the net, knowing it will always be there?


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## GusPolinski

@cam42, I'll tell you exactly why she did it --

She did it because a) she _wanted_ to do it, b) she didn't think she'd get caught, and c) any fleeting fear or anxiety that she _did_ feel at the thought of getting caught, thereby endangering her marriage, home, and family, the financial and emotional well-being of her husband and children, and even herself, etc...

...wasn't enough to keep her from doing it.

And then doing it again.

And then again.

And again.

And on and on and so forth.

If she's honest, she'll admit to this.

Otherwise she's still lying, even if only "to keep from hurting you".


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## straightshooter

GusPolinski said:


> I'll tell you exactly why she did it --
> 
> She did it because a) she _wanted_ to do it, b) she didn't think she'd get caught, and c) any fleeting fear or anxiety that she _did_ feel at the thought of getting caught, thereby endangering her marriage, home, and family, the financial and emotional well-being of her husband and children, and even herself, etc...
> 
> ...wasn't enough to keep her from doing it.
> 
> And then doing it again.
> 
> And then again.
> 
> And again.
> 
> And on and on and so forth.
> 
> If she's honest, she'll admit to this.
> 
> Otherwise she's still lying, even if only to "keep from hurting you".


Cam,

Gus took the words out of my mouth. Now this is not any recommendation to divorce or reconcile but you better wrap your head around a couple of realities
(1) your wife is no "nutcase" who is crazy like she is now implying.
(2) you analyzed it for free in one of your earliest posts. SHE GOT BORED WITH MARRIED LIFE AND WANTED SOME FUN. 
(3) your biggest obstacle in getting over this is not a new marriage. It is believing in your heart that if the OM had been kicked out or wanted out whether or not she would have stopped the affair. MOst here believe her behavior right after D Day was not a good sign for you. Your call on that one.
(4) Evinrude pointed out a short time ago she was happily banging her boyfriend. 
(5) And all of a sudden, yes suddenly, once you show signs of leaning towards maybe divorcing her she is putty in your hands. Of course she is and stop making this metamorphosis anything other than regret. Every day more tears. Why?? Because there is no boyfriend anymore and she is scared ****less. Perfectly normal reaction on her part. If you pull the plug, she is a 40 year old divorcee whose kids, parents, and in laws are pissed as hell at her. Wouldn't you be scared and be saying all the same things.???
She certainly did not want to leave you. You know that and we all do also. She wanted to **** him and live her Mary Poppins family life.

Cam, you will do yourself a big favor no matter what you decide if you just accept it for what it is and I will repeat what you were just told by someone else

SHE DID IT BECAUSE SHE WANTED TO
SHE KEPT DOING IT BECAUSE SHE LIKED IT AND WAS HAVING A BLAST
SHE SHOWED NO CONCERN FOR YOU AT ALL EVEN AFTER DISCOVERY UNTIL TGHREATENED WITH DIVORCE POSSIBILITY
SHE WILL PLAY POSSUM HERE HOPING SHE CAN SURVIVE AND STAY MARRIED.

You can tiptoe around it, waste thousands of dollars looking for some academic to give you the light bulb reason why she did it, or you can say it happened and I will never forget but I can't change history.

And lastly, there is absolutely nothing you or anyone of us can do to guarantee that it cannot happen again, and I still think you need some more answers to improve your odds of escaping that one. Not answers on what makes her tick, but factual answers on a total timeline including who knew.

Sorry if this was harsh, but this was no CSA case or any other bull ****. It was a 35-40 year old woman who wanted some ego kibbles bad enough to risk it all. It ain't complicated.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

cam42 said:


> She has given me space, I think she is genuinely trying to work through her issues. That doesn't mean that I forgive her for what she's done, I most likely never will. If we R it will be a completely new relationship most likely.


Cam42, you must forgive whether you D or R for you. At some future point you will want to let go of it as it only hurts you. Took me a while to figure that out. Yes, it will be a new relationship should you R. And if you R, hopefully, it will be a great new relationship.


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## sokillme

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> May I ask how you are so certain Cam 42 will or is making a mistake? None of us know what is in his wife's heart nor can we look her in the eye as Cam has. Only Cam knows. I will say the veracity and ferociousness of some of your posts leaves me to believe you are the one suffering. I sense an extreme amount of turmoil within you from Your posts. I hope if I am correct at some point you find inner peace.
> 
> You puzzle me. You posts on my thread many months ago and seemed skeptical of what my wife did for me in July. She was most sincere and is most sncere in correcting as much as she can what she did to me. Cam's wife may be of the same mindset, but we do not and will not know. I do not wish to thread jack, but I sense Cam has found strength he did not know he possessed, and is doing things his way instead of her way.That is good, for the time being.
> 
> I keep seeing in you SKM what Farside so aptly named the " Torch and Pitchfork Brigade". Hell, I was there in the initial stages, but my chaplain friend opened my eyes to forgiveness and mercy, instead of my scorched earth course of action. Sooner or later you have to face reality and reality is letting go of the anger and pain. It only hurts you. Trust me I know.
> 
> Cam42, I am going encourage you to follow what we are taught in the Corps...."improvise, adapt, and overcome", regardless of your decision do this for you to make a new and improved Cam. :wink2:


I just think you guys just don't understand what I am saying or my thinking. That is fine. My overall point is it doesn't matter if she is sorry, you should forgive but that is not a good reason to R. Cam will not know for a long time if this is really true or not and even still it doesn't matter, it certainly shouldn't be the reason. It will probably be longer for him to know if he can live with it. He won't know if he is being pressured into it, by his wife, or the white knights on here.

He should detach. He will get a better idea then, because eventually he WILL detach. That is what happens.


----------



## sokillme

GusPolinski said:


> I'll tell you exactly why she did it --
> 
> She did it because a) she _wanted_ to do it, b) she didn't think she'd get caught, and c) any fleeting fear or anxiety that she _did_ feel at the thought of getting caught, thereby endangering her marriage, home, and family, the financial and emotional well-being of her husband and children, and even herself, etc...
> 
> ...wasn't enough to keep her from doing it.
> 
> And then doing it again.
> 
> And then again.
> 
> And again.
> 
> And on and on and so forth.
> 
> If she's honest, she'll admit to this.
> 
> Otherwise she's still lying, even if only to "keep from hurting you".


I wouldn't put it past her to have it in the back of her mind that she would get away with it even if she got caught. I think a lot of them do get away with it. They think like spoiled children who know if they cry enough they will get their way. Some pleasure now for some pain later.


----------



## TX-SC

sokillme said:


> I wouldn't put it past her to have it in the back of her mind that she would get away with it even if she got caught. I think a lot of them do get away with it. They think like spoiled children who know if they cry enough they will get their way. Some pleasure now for some pain later.


Although I have never cheated, my understanding is that many WS simply refuse to think about the implications. It's like not wanting to go to the doctor over fear of getting a bad diagnostic. They get in over their heads, then when those nagging little bouts of "crap, what am I doing!" creep in, they push them aside so they don't have to THINK about it. Many call this compartmentalizing. They know it is wrong but they refuse to think about what may happen if they are caught. 

I think for many of these WS, they tell themselves they will get out of the affair soon, so there's no need for their spouse to know. Then when they are caught the reality finally weighs them down. Your marriage is now crap, your kids hate you, and your spouse is puking his/her guts out because of the pain. "I did this!" is a difficult pill to swallow. 

I do agree that most affairs don't require IC and MC to figure out what happened. A selfish person got bored and wanted some excitement. End of story. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


----------



## sokillme

TX-SC said:


> Although I have never cheated, my understanding is that many WS simply refuse to think about the implications. It's like not wanting to go to the doctor over fear of getting a bad diagnostic. They get in over their heads, then when those nagging little bouts of "crap, what am I doing!" creep in, they push them aside so they don't have to THINK about it. Many call this compartmentalizing. They know it is wrong but they refuse to think about what may happen if they are caught.
> 
> I think for many of these WS, they tell themselves they will get out of the affair soon, so there's no need for their spouse to know. Then when they are caught the reality finally weighs them down. Your marriage is now crap, your kids hate you, and your spouse is puking his/her guts out because of the pain. "I did this!" is a difficult pill to swallow.
> 
> I do agree that most affairs don't require IC and MC to figure out what happened. A selfish person got bored and wanted some excitement. End of story.
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


Why is it so hard to believe that some spouse just know their partners will put up with it. It's not like a who hell of a lot of them don't just end up putting up with it in the end. I think they probably know they have their spouse whipped. They married them because of the dynamic. 

I am sure you have read the threads by people who are so passive and don't do anything. They just post about how painful it is but take no action. There is about 6 of them I could point to on SI right now. Ones where the WS just rubs their BS noses all in it. No shame at all. I mean there is a reason so many betrayed men are recommended to read "No More Mr. Nice Guy". These men are passive and codependent, and their wives know it, and use it to their advantage. Their husbands are just a paycheck to them. 

This is also why they are so brazen about it, there is no love there. Go read some of the cheaters threads on Love Shack, some of them totally disrespect their spouses in the posts. Talk about the people who love them like garbage. Lots of WS bad mouth their BS to the affair partners in emails and text. This is a common thing you read about BS having to go through. I am sure when they get caught they are not going to admit how they really feel. Again this is why it's so dangerous to just believe their crying and I'm sorrys as repentance. It's your action (and your action when not under duress) that shows your true character. Everyone pleads and cries when they get caught, that is the default reaction. Even people who have no intention of staying cry. As such it doesn't mean much. I don't know about you, but I am more apt to believe what someone says when they are relaxed and having fun then when they are trying to save their ass.

This is why I think Cam's wife is still the women who could ask her husband how she looked when she went out on a date with her boyfriend. Only a truly sick person would do that. Also be giggling like a school girl on the phone with her friends. Sorry a month of I am sorrys doesn't change that. Cam is still going to be married to that women if he stays. 

Let me ask you this, how many of you out there could ever do what she did, I don't mean cheat I mean rub your BS's nose in it. Treat them with such disregard. The person who gave you kids no less. I know I couldn't, I am repulsed just by reading it, a lot of us are.

You guys are just too naive to who a lot of these people are. I think you don't want to believe it. 

A lot of people are just ****ty.


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## GusPolinski

Still waiting for word on which of her friends knew of and encouraged or supported her affair, and whether or not she's committed to cutting them out of her life.

@cam42?


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## TX-SC

sokillme said:


> Why is it so hard to believe that some spouse just know their partners will put up with it. It's not like a who hell of a lot of them don't just end up putting up with it in the end. I think they probably know they have their spouse whipped. They married them because of the dynamic.
> 
> I am sure you have read the threads by people who are so passive and don't do anything. They just post about how painful it is but take no action. There is about 6 of them I could point to on SI right now. Ones where the WS just rubs their BS noses all in it. No shame at all. I mean there is a reason so many betrayed men are recommended to read "No More Mr. Nice Guy". These men are passive and codependent, and their wives know it, and use it to their advantage. Their husbands are just a paycheck to them.
> 
> This is also why they are so brazen about it, there is no love there. Go read some of the cheaters threads on Love Shack, some of them totally disrespect their spouses in the posts. Talk about the people who love them like garbage. Lots of WS bad mouth their BS to the affair partners in emails and text. This is a common thing you read about BS having to go through. I am sure when they get caught they are not going to admit how they really feel. Again this is why it's so dangerous to just believe their crying and I'm sorrys as repentance. It's your action (and your action when not under duress) that shows your true character. Everyone pleads and cries when they get caught, that is the default reaction. Even people who have no intention of staying cry. As such it doesn't mean much. I don't know about you, but I am more apt to believe what someone says when they are relaxed and having fun then when they are trying to save their ass.
> 
> This is why I think Cam's wife is still the women who could ask her husband how she looked when she went out on a date with her boyfriend. Only a truly sick person would do that. Also be giggling like a school girl on the phone with her friends. Sorry a month of I am sorrys doesn't change that. Cam is still going to be married to that women if he stays.
> 
> Let me ask you this, how many of you out there could ever do what she did, I don't mean cheat I mean rub your BS's nose in it. I know I couldn't, I am repulsed just by reading it.
> 
> You guys are just too naive to who a lot of these people are. I think you don't want to believe it.
> 
> A lot of people are just ****ty.


Many are, no doubt about it. There are a lot of people with no morals and no sense of the pain they cause, or perhaps they truly don't care. 

No, I don't cheat, so I can't put myself in Cam's wife's shoes about the "how do I look" thing. But, given the length of their marriage and the fact that they had a good marriage for those years, I have a hard time thinking she is truly evil. I think she made some bad decisions and now sees how much of a screw up it was. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## Graywolf2

sokillme said:


> I wouldn't put it past her to have it in the back of her mind that she would get away with it even if she got caught.


You would think that having a good stable marriage would be all positive when it came to preventing infidelity. 

Some factors can be a negative in certain cases. Let’s say that one spouse is dependable, rock solid for years and clearly loves their spouse. Then they are so dependable that they can be taken for granted. It’s like the old saying that a fish doesn’t know that it’s in water. The never wavering spouse is the water and the unfaithful spouse is the fish. 

The WS spouse thinks they will never be caught and if they are it would be out of character for their BS to divorce them. They feel that they are working with a net in case they fall. Their BS will be mad but they can handle that and ultimately the BS’s basic nature will take over and they will R.

EDIT: I will never understand why the WS gets credit if they never intended to leave the marriage. Again, the marriage was their water. They never wanted to give up the benefits and still don't. They should get a gold star? At least they're consistent.


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## sokillme

Graywolf2 said:


> The WS spouse thinks they will never be caught and if they are it would be out of character for their BS to divorce them. They feel that they are working with a net in case they fall. Their BS will be mad but they can handle that and ultimately the BS’s basic nature will take over and they will R.


And they are right. I mean lets just be honest. It is very plain to me having been reading these threads for a while that many many people are willing to put of with a whole hell of a lot. I think a lot of these cheaters know it. So it is just a calculated risk. I get to have this now and maybe I won't get caught but if I do, I will just have to pay the price for a little while.


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## MAJDEATH

GusPolinski said:


> Still waiting for word on which of her friends knew of and encouraged or supported her affair, and whether or not she's committed to cutting them out of her life.


Toxic friends are certainly a big problem, IMHO.


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## Malaise

GusPolinski said:


> Still waiting for word on which of her friends knew of and encouraged or supported her affair, and whether or not she's committed to cutting them out of her life.


And if the husbands of said friends know about their wives casual/approving attitude towards adultery. It might give some of them something to think about


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## Andy1001

GusPolinski said:


> Still waiting for word on which of her friends knew of and encouraged or supported her affair, and whether or not she's committed to cutting them out of her life.


She is still laughing with her friends and they are telling her to lie low for a while and then her and the om can get back together.She is an actress of oscar winning proportions.She can go from six months banging her other man,meeting him and holding hands in public,asking her husband how she looked before going off to bring in the new year with a bang(pun intended) and laughing with her friends about her affair in front of her husband and then when she is discovered she suddenly realises it is Cam she wanted all along.This woman makes me sick and I feel so sorry for Cam that I wish there was something practical that could be done to show him what a manipulating ***** he is married to.She is never going to sign the divorce papers without a long drawn out fight.Also this crying in the restaurant bathroom is more bs,did she have flashbacks of banging her ap in there.
One of the "experts" has said she needs to mourn her boyfriend.Why?she will probably be back with him shortly and that's provided they ever really split up.Once she realises that Cam will roll over it will give her a license to do what she wants.
He has a long sad life ahead of him if he doesn't get rid of this woman.


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## eric1

You file for divorce for the multitude of reasons, including waking her up and taking control of the process.

It has worked glowingly in this case and future betrayeds who find this site would be well-served to pay heed to how well it worked. 

Cam, you're going to give it some time to decide if remorse can turn into regret. There are some positive signs there.

Even if it does it is now time for you to start trying to figure out if you can live with this.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*

Speaking as a Moderator:

This is the second and final warning I am giving on this thread. Arguing over courses of action on Cam's thread is a thread jack.

If you can't speak to posters other than Cam without attempting to invalidate their opinion, you will get a week timeout.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Cam, this is going to be rough. There is no right or easy way to make this decision. Here's the thing, you have to find out what is comfortable for YOU. Personally, I don't buy the social construct of forgiveness. Like reconciliation, it is a gift and there is no LAW or RULE which says I have to give anyone a gift or forgiveness. No, I am not telling you to reconcile or divorce. All I am saying is there are many ways to move forward and they do not have to follow any poster's script. You are an adult, if you have had any life experience you know what works for me might not work for you. You can take all of the advice, read the books or do your own thing at your own pace. Just make sure you are making your choice on what works for you. Not for us, not for your family and not for your wife, but for you. Nope, I am not saying you exclude anyone from helping you, but ultimately only YOU, yourself, lives in your mind. Only YOU know what you can tolerate, accept or forgive when you are alone and all of this is rolling around in your head.

Whether you decide to reconcile or divorce it will only work if you are true to who you are. Yes, even if it upsets your wife, family or us TAM posters.


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## ButtPunch

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Cam, this is going to be rough. There is no right or easy way to make this decision. Here's the thing, you have to find out what is comfortable for YOU. Personally, I don't buy the social construct of forgiveness. Like reconciliation, it is a gift and there is no LAW or RULE which says I have to give anyone a gift or forgiveness. No, I am not telling you to reconcile or divorce. All I am saying is there are many ways to move forward and they do not have to follow any poster's script. You are an adult, if you have had any life experience you know what works for me might not work for you. You can take all of the advice, read the books or do your own thing at your own pace. Just make sure you are making your choice on what works for you. Not for us, not for your family and not for your wife, but for you. Nope, I am not saying you exclude anyone from helping you, but ultimately only YOU, yourself, lives in your mind. Only YOU know what you can tolerate, accept or forgive when you are alone and all of this is rolling around in your head.
> 
> Whether you decide to reconcile or divorce it will only work if you are true to who you are. Yes, even if it upsets your wife, family or us TAM posters.


QFT

Requoted for emphasis.


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## sokillme

GusPolinski said:


> @cam42, I'll tell you exactly why she did it --
> 
> She did it because a) she _wanted_ to do it, b) she didn't think she'd get caught, and c) any fleeting fear or anxiety that she _did_ feel at the thought of getting caught, thereby endangering her marriage, home, and family, the financial and emotional well-being of her husband and children, and even herself, etc...
> 
> ...wasn't enough to keep her from doing it.
> 
> And then doing it again.
> 
> And then again.
> 
> And again.
> 
> And on and on and so forth.
> 
> If she's honest, she'll admit to this.
> 
> Otherwise she's still lying, even if only "to keep from hurting you".



This needs to be emphasized cam. There are so many posts by people in R about trying to understand what caused it. Looking for a secret key. Not accepting the simple truth that your WS did it because they are selfish and at the time of doing it they were really just picking themselves and their AP over you. This is what they are and what they at least were capable of. Accept it. Trying to look for some outside force for causing this is just living in denial and prevents true healing. It is not a path for healing because there is no answer there.


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## Malaise

sokillme said:


> This needs to be emphasized cam. There are so many posts by people in R about trying to understand what caused it. Looking for a secret key. Not accepting the simple truth that your WS did it because they are selfish and at the time of doing it they were really just picking themselves and their AP over you. This is what they are and what they at least were capable of. Accept it. Trying to look for some outside force for causing this is just living in denial and prevents true healing. It is not a path for healing because there is no answer there.


People do things because they want to do them.


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## Mr Blunt

> *By Cam*
> She has given me space, I think she is genuinely trying to work through her issues. That doesn't mean that I forgive her for what she's done, I most likely never will.





Sometime ago we had a discussion on forgiveness on TAM. I do not know what your definition of forgiveness is but I looked up several definitions and they pretty much agree that forgiveness first helps YOU. When you said that you most likely will never forgive her I thought you may be helped by thinking about the aspects of forgiveness. Here below is one of the definitions that I found:


By Berkeley education web site
Forgiveness Definition | Greater Good

What Is Forgiveness?

Psychologists generally define forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually deserve your forgiveness.
Just as important as defining what forgiveness is, though, is understanding what forgiveness is not. Experts who study or teach forgiveness make clear that when you forgive, you do not gloss over or deny the seriousness of an offense against you. Forgiveness does not mean forgetting, nor does it mean condoning or excusing offenses. Though forgiveness can help repair a damaged relationship, it doesn’t obligate you to reconcile with the person who harmed you, or release them from legal accountability.


Instead, forgiveness brings the forgiver peace of mind and frees him or her from corrosive anger. While there is some debate over whether true forgiveness requires positive feelings toward the offender, experts agree that it at least involves letting go of deeply held negative feelings. In that way, it empowers you to recognize the pain you suffered without letting that pain define you, enabling you to heal and move on with your life.
Forgiveness Definition | Greater Good[/url


Cam, as a fellow BS, I would like to see you free yourself as much as possible from “corrosive anger, vengeance, and hate.* At the very least, forgiveness, as defined above, will help you and help you be a more positive emotional support for your children.*


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## sokillme

This has nothing to do with whether you R or not but, forgiveness is good, and I believe necessarily. It also doesn't mean that you can see the person for who they are or what they have done to you. If anything it is easier if you see them for who they are, and how broken they are. It still makes sense to be weary of them. 

This is how I feel about my first love who cheated. Not that it is the same, it's not, we didn't have children and never got to the married stage. I really think of her now as someone who would never be able to be in the kind of relationship I wanted from her. I think part of her cheating may have been an expression of that in a way. Like blowing it up so that she didn't do it later when we were further along. So I forgive her, but I will never forget, I have no desire to ever talk to her again. The most she ever is to me is a bittersweet memory.

Forgiveness is just moving on for the hurt and accepting that people are who they show you. It's not fixating on it, it's not allowing the hurt and anger fester. It's accepting.


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## drifting on

Cam

How are you doing? Has your wife told you of any friends or coworkers that knew of the affair?


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## Chumpomatic

I've read all of this and I figured I would give my two cents. This is your thread so Im not going to dig too deep into my story. The short version is: Married 20 years with 3 kids. I retired from the Marine Corps and we moved. Shortly after she started a new job she was working late a lot. Noticed the text messages increased and you guessed it, full blown PA with a POS Marine for 6 months. I pushed for R because I loved her and didn't want to break up my family. Almost killed the guy and truthfully myself. That was 18 months ago and we're still together. That's the short version. Now here's the reality from someone who done the pick me dance like a chump and made myself a better person to sway her back to me. Not a day goes by that her affair isn't on my mind. Not a day goes by that Im not looking over my shoulder waiting for it to happen again. No matter how accountable she shows me she is the thoughts are still there. Im 40 years old and struggle with ED now. Never had issues before but I do now. A week after I found out about the affair something happened in me and I sexually destroyed her. That lasted a few months, hello hysterical bonding. Once the thought of her with another man got into my head the ED started. I cant even get a Bj without it going soft and I love BJs. What guy doesn't? I have nightmares about her screwing other guys. On the flip side the nightmares stopped about Iraq but they were replaced with something much worse. Everyday I live in fear that I will find out more. Everyday I live in fear that this will happen again. I have become the shell of the once strong man and Marine that I once was. This is coming from someone who has three Iraq tours and spent three years on Parris Island. I was not a weak person before all of this. I use myself to show what you risk becoming. I should've left the second I found out. I promise you with R you will be forever haunted by the thoughts, the mind movies and the lies. I know people on here always say that things work out and with effort there will be a chance at R. Sometimes things do work out but look at those people that have reconciled. The WS is always fast to point out how much they have been through and how far they've came. Now look ta the BS, not much of the same attitude usually from their end. Why? Because you don't ever and I mean EVER forget the pain and betrayal that happened. This is 18 months out that you are reading here. The ground will never feel steady beneath you. You will always wonder. You want my full story go to chump lady and see how much of a chump I have been. You'll find it under "Im an ex marine". Trust me, your marriage will never be the same and you will never be the same. You've been given some great advice on here and some advice that I don't agree with. Take it from someone who is in R. It will destroy everything about you that made you great. Will my R last? I don't know. Reading this many will be thinking "Hell no he's not going to make it" and you're prob right. Will you make it through R? Will you live a life of fear and constant worry is what you have to ask yourself. Will you ever be able to move past this and set aside the mind movies that will destroy you? Only you can answer that. My advice and this is only my advice, move on with D. Fix yourself so you're ready for another relationship. One that you deserve to be in. Remain a good father to your kids and work on yourself. Once you leave a cheater you gain a life as they say on another site.


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## sokillme

Chumpomatic said:


> I've read all of this and I figured I would give my two cents. This is your thread so Im not going to dig too deep into my story. The short version is: Married 20 years with 3 kids. I retired from the Marine Corps and we moved. Shortly after she started a new job she was working late a lot. Noticed the text messages increased and you guessed it, full blown PA with a POS Marine for 6 months. I pushed for R because I loved her and didn't want to break up my family. Almost killed the guy and truthfully myself. That was 18 months ago and we're still together. That's the short version. Now here's the reality from someone who done the pick me dance like a chump and made myself a better person to sway her back to me. Not a day goes by that her affair isn't on my mind. Not a day goes by that Im not looking over my shoulder waiting for it to happen again. No matter how accountable she shows me she is the thoughts are still there. Im 40 years old and struggle with ED now. Never had issues before but I do now. A week after I found out about the affair something happened in me and I sexually destroyed her. That lasted a few months, hello hysterical bonding. Once the thought of her with another man got into my head the ED started. I cant even get a Bj without it going soft and I love BJs. What guy doesn't? I have nightmares about her screwing other guys. On the flip side the nightmares stopped about Iraq but they were replaced with something much worse. Everyday I live in fear that I will find out more. Everyday I live in fear that this will happen again. I have become the shell of the once strong man and Marine that I once was. This is coming from someone who has three Iraq tours and spent three years on Parris Island. I was not a weak person before all of this. I use myself to show what you risk becoming. I should've left the second I found out. I promise you with R you will be forever haunted by the thoughts, the mind movies and the lies. I know people on here always say that things work out and with effort there will be a chance at R. Sometimes things do work out but look at those people that have reconciled. The WS is always fast to point out how much they have been through and how far they've came. Now look ta the BS, not much of the same attitude usually from their end. Why? Because you don't ever and I mean EVER forget the pain and betrayal that happened. This is 18 months out that you are reading here. The ground will never feel steady beneath you. You will always wonder. You want my full story go to chump lady and see how much of a chump I have been. You'll find it under "Im an ex marine". Trust me, your marriage will never be the same and you will never be the same. You've been given some great advice on here and some advice that I don't agree with. Take it from someone who is in R. It will destroy everything about you that made you great. Will my R last? I don't know. Reading this many will be thinking "Hell no he's not going to make it" and you're prob right. Will you make it through R? Will you live a life of fear and constant worry is what you have to ask yourself. Will you ever be able to move past this and set aside the mind movies that will destroy you? Only you can answer that. My advice and this is only my advice, move on with D. Fix yourself so you're ready for another relationship. One that you deserve to be in. Remain a good father to your kids and work on yourself. Once you leave a cheater you gain a life as they say on another site.


I say this to both Chumpomatic but the same applies to Cam. 

Good God man call it. Quit rocking a dead corpse thinking it is going to come back to life. Get out there and find someone to love you again who deserves it. Everyone will survive, it's OK for you to be happy again. You are not required to sacrifice your soul for someone who couldn't even keep her pants on. Seriously I am so tired of reading these sad posts. It's like the Mythbusters episode where they shined up a turd so it was shinny like glass. It's still a turd you wouldn't want it on your desk. See your wife for what she is. Let go of the dream, she is just like every other awful WS on here. 

The pain will go away once you find someone better to love, so will the mind movies and everything else because the substance which is your love and bond to her will not longer exist. It will revert to a bad memory. I promise you this. Your idealization of her will also go away. You being a traditional Alpha man, you see part of your value is in supporting your wife. Sacrificing for your wife. She is not your wife anymore really. When she went outside of the marriage she ripped up the contract. She fired you. No one goes to work at a job they have been fired from. Now you are sacrificing for just a woman who spit in your face. I swear to God man when you were suffering PTSD from being in Iraq would you have decided to spend the rest of your life living sacrificing for the guy who was shooting at you? Would you? How would that workout? Seriously what is the thinking we have going on here? And at least to that guy you were just some unknown enemy. Of course this is worse. You are the father of her children! 

It's not going to work for a Alpha man anyway. You know and I know it is dishonorable to let that pass and not stand up for yourself. People who live by honor must have consequences in our lives, without them we go insane. Move on and stand up for yourself already. Being in the military you must also know that some times you have to retreat to win a war. It's time to call it if you are 18 months out and that miserable. The battle of your marriage is over, time to win the war of your life. 

At the very least isn't it time to divorce her and let her compete for you. You may end up out there single and love life, or this new her may convince you to try again but at least you have some power. YES POWER. All relationships have a power dynamic. When a person cheats on you and you take them back this requires the BS to accept a very unfair deal, or lose some of their own agency. Give up their POWER of self respect. Your wife killed your relationship. It's over man. Your marriage has been dead for 2 years you just haven't accepted it yet. Now is the time.

Cam is this going to be you? There are so many who end up feeling this way. People on here who talk about how well their R is going still make posts like this sometimes monthly. Living your life in denial is no way to live.


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## curious234

Chumpomatic,
Did your wife show as much remorse and cooperation as cam's wife immediately after the affair? Also since R, is she loving and continue to show remorse and is going out of her way to make you happy/comfortable? The stories are abound where BH is seeking R with little remorse from WW and even with the WW continuing the affair. Despite all your misgivings you are still together so the pluses must be out weighing the negatives. Cam's wife is one of the rare WWs who go all out in trying to comply with corrective measures. Cam's and yours marriages have similar timelines and involvements. Your misgivings and doubts may have nothing to do with your mental toughness as a soldier. Facing infidelity is an entirely different situation and other people may not have as much misgivings as you. I hope you can get over your current unsettled mind by finding other purposes like helping your kids in their aspirations and doing something new for which as a veteran lot of government help may be available .


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## eric1

Sokillme, as you've repeated your opinion literally every other post do you think that it's perhaps in Cam's best interest to hear from multiple experienced voices ?

He's not an idiot, he gets your point


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## TaDor

I'm 9 months into R. Yeah, I still hurt sometimes... I've stopped the anxiety meds a long time ago. I don't have mind movies for a long time - very rare. No ED issues. Please see a doc about that... Viagra may help. Been there... May take a few months to get your motor running.

MC is required.. OK, it's not. But it helps tremendously.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Eric sir, you are the voice of reason


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## jlg07

I think finding out about the friends that helped and laughed with her about the affair is critical. There will be no R If these toxic influences are still there for the wife. I also don't think the entire reason for her cheating was because she was bored. Asking if she looked good before seeing the OM and the level of malevolence she showed by texting her friends abut the affair RIGHT in front of him and laughing about it is far worse than "I was bored". I really think she has some deep rooted issues that she needs to work on LONG before any true R can commence.


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## 225985

Cam,

What are you doing for fun, just you? Hanging out with your buddies? Sports? A hobby?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## cam42

I have been going to the gym as a hobby, it's been helping me to blow off some steam while helping my health. Yes two of her friends knew and they are both out of her life. One dropped my wife herself and the other my wife cut contact with. A co-worker of theirs also knew and my wife has cut contact with that person also. My wife is being nice but is maintaining her distance like I have asked. Everything just kind of seems like a stand still. She just goes to work comes home and goes to therapy, not much else. Now when the kids go up to their rooms and I find myself alone with her I just make myself busy with something else. When she talked about going to a psychologist, she told me all those reasons for the affair. Selfishness, her ego was stroked, did not think she would get caught, they never planned on leaving their spouses. Told her that reasoning was not good enough, but I have realized that no reason is really good enough to cheat. She has been hearing it from everyone, everyone seems to be quick to lose her temper with her including our kids.

I tell them that she is still their mother and to be respectful towards her. She seems to just take it and has been isolating herself for most of the day except dinner time and in the evening. The kids are usually in their rooms and she just asks me if there is anything I would like to talk about. I let her know I don't want that much contact besides about the kids or other things. She does text me everyday saying "I love you, hope you're having a good day" I usually just say "you too". I think detaching might be necessary in order for our marriage to be stronger. I can't be co-dependant. 

She bought the book "How to help your spouse heal" and it came in today and she gave me it. Told me she thinks we should look over it together or I can do what I want with it. She already has a few books about this but told me this one has gotten good reviews so we will see. Not much of a reader to be honest but she is.


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## MovingFrwrd

The book seems like a good idea, and you may be able to get some help for yourself by reading it as well. There may be ways and ideas for healing that you haven't thought of etc.

I wouldn't say the distancing is a phase per se, but my wife went through the same sort of thing. In fact, it has caused her a fair amount of anguish as a good friend of hers is now missing from her life. The only thing that seems helps repair these relationships (the good and important ones that is) is time and consistent behavior, so it doesn't appear that this will lessen for her anytime soon. It's ok to feel empathy for her during this, but there's little you can do to help her through as this is her cross to bear. What you did with your children was spot on, and I fully support that. 

I was much the same way with my wife as well - when the kids were in bed, I had a hard time being around my wife for a considerably long time. I would sit and read, or do things around the house, pretty much anything to try and avoid contact. It's a normal thing to experience. Not fun, but certainly normal. 

As to her reasons for cheating, sadly, you're right. She will never tell you a good enough reason to explain the cheating. That is the answer, because in reality, there is no answer. You can trace too many things back to it, but in the end, it was a choice. All the other things she's bringing up are factors that she had weighed (or not) in making that choice. That's all they are - factors. The ego stroking, the selfishness, etc. Those are all supporting reasons for the choice. I hope she is working on why she was able to justify the choice to herself, and find ways to prevent herself from making that choice in the future.

It's good to see you checking in here, I hope you can continue to do so.


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## ConanHub

Wonder what her take on you dating and f'ing another woman for half a year would be?

Be interesting to examine her feelings about you doing exactly everything she did for six months.


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## jlg07

> Yes two of her friends knew and they are both out of her life. One dropped my wife herself and the other my wife cut contact with. A co-worker of theirs also knew and my wife has cut contact with that person also.


If this is the case, then I'm a bit confused about what all the giggling/etc. that was going on with her "friends" noted early on? Sounded like more than just two, and if ONE dropped her due to this affair, who were all the girlfriends she was texting/laughing with?

I am glad that you DID find this out, and at least it seems like she is taking some of the correct steps here. Cam, VERY sorry that you are in this situation and "limbo".


----------



## drifting on

ConanHub said:


> Wonder what her take on you dating and f'ing another woman for half a year would be?
> 
> Be interesting to examine her feelings about you doing exactly everything she did for six months.




Her reaction to this would be very interesting, especially if he asks her how he looks before heading out for the night. However, I really hope this is going to be kept as a hypothetical question and not reality, it would then seem as Cam would losing his integrity. Not worth it in my opinion.


----------



## Mizzbak

Cam - I think all of us live in some kind of limbo whilst we decide how best to move forward after an affair. Once all the crap has been flung in the air and the dust has settled, then things go quiet. I remember sometimes feeling too numb to even feel angry anymore. It was different to being depressed because I didn't feel quite so lonely - my husband and I talked a lot. Some of it was about the affair and some of it was about life and what we wanted from it. (And some of it was about the leaking toilet.)

I've always thought of marriage as a living thing that is fed by energy from both spouses. It may not always be supplied with equal energy from both spouses, but it does need them to both be open to the marriage. When one of them cheats on the other, then they introduce poison into the marriage. Ultimately whether the marriage survives this is dependent on whether the poison can be overcome. And whether the marriage is worth enough to both spouses to want to try and fight to save it. But when one (or both) of them fully disengages, then the marriage will not last long. 

I think that if you carry on like you are now, in a while, you're not going to have to decide what to do about your marriage. It would just have quietly died by itself. All the anti-reconcilers here are going to say that this is a good thing - this process of detachment. My husband hurt me more than anyone has ever hurt me. Believe me that I totally understand the need you have to cut yourself off from your wife. But unless you allow yourself to slowly open to the process of restoring intimacy of some kind with her (and I'm not talking about sex), then you're never going to move forward with her. And then I think it would almost be better to be cruel to be kind, rather than watch your wife's hope die slowly. 

I think that we are all unique, as are our marriages and life situations. Ultimately, we each have to make our most difficult decisions alone. I am not pro-divorce, or pro-reconciliation. But I am pro-healing. And I believe that whilst we all have the strength to heal alone when someone has hurt us, we can also heal more quickly and thoroughly when the person who hurt us walks along with us. That doesn't mean that we have to carry on together as we were before, but that, if we both care enough, then our journey doesn't have to end in a place of pain. And this is especially true and helpful when you share children.

Strength, Cam. Many of us are thinking of you.


----------



## Malaise

MovingFrwrd said:


> As to her reasons for cheating, sadly, you're right. She will never tell you a good enough reason to explain the cheating. That is the answer, because in reality, there is no answer. You can trace too many things back to it, but in the end, it was a choice. All the other things she's bringing up are factors that she had weighed (or not) in making that choice. That's all they are - factors. *The ego stroking, the selfishness, etc. Those are all supporting reasons for the choice. * I hope she is working on why she was able to justify the choice to herself, and find ways to prevent herself from making that choice in the future.



She did it because she wanted to do it.

That's the bottom line. All those reasons are like saying she had no choice but to cheat


----------



## ConanHub

drifting on said:


> Her reaction to this would be very interesting, especially if he asks her how he looks before heading out for the night. However, I really hope this is going to be kept as a hypothetical question and not reality, it would then seem as Cam would losing his integrity. Not worth it in my opinion.


I am interested in it as an exercise.

I don't advocate RA's even though I understand them.

What would be interesting is for Cam to get dressed to the nines for a night on the town, maybe have a friend (female) accompany him and ask his wife on the way out the door how he looks?

He could go have a good time, make it a very late night (plutonic of course) and after he gets home, he could use it as an lead in to exploring her feelings about him doing the exact same thing to her.

Could be very beneficial to explore.

I still advocate for a hard spanking.


----------



## Bibi1031

blueinbr said:


> For Cam's benefit to know, have you seen any threads here in which the couple divorces after infidelity and then goes on to marry again?
> 
> In my ignorance i would think that in nearly every case once the divorce happens chances of R are zero.


I have seen two cases in my 14 years of using these type of boards when my X cheated on me after 21 years of marriage.

One of the couples divorced and remarried other people and about 10 years later they got back together and remarried.

The other couple divorced because the WH decided he wanted the AP instead of the BS. After about 2.5 years, the WH realized that the AP was not what he wanted or loved at all. He went back to the BS and they enjoyed a happy reconciliation for about a year and he died of a heart attack. It was a sad ending to their story.


----------



## honcho

Bibi1031 said:


> I have seen two cases in my 14 years of using these type of boards when my X cheated on me after 21 years of marriage.
> 
> One of the couples divorced and remarried other people and about 10 years later they got back together and remarried.
> 
> The other couple divorced because the WH decided he wanted the AP instead of the BS. After about 2.5 years, the WH realized that the AP was not what he wanted or loved at all. He went back to the BS and they enjoyed a happy reconciliation for about a year and he died of a heart attack. It was a sad ending to their story.


One of my good friends divorced his wife after she had multiple affairs. 4 years later they got married again, 2 or 3 years after that got divorced again as she was back to cheating


----------



## Graywolf2

ConanHub said:


> Wonder what her take on you dating and f'ing another woman for half a year would be?
> 
> Be interesting to examine her feelings about you doing exactly everything she did for six months.


I’m sure that she would be quite upset if Cam got a girlfriend but her primary concern would be different than Cam’s. She would be afraid that Cam might fall in love. To her the relationship is everything and the physical sex act is almost meaningless. 

That’s how she could handle her affair so well. In the ways that were important to her she wasn’t betraying Cam. The relationship with Cam was strong and she never intended to leave him. That’s why she picked a married OM that wanted to stay with his wife.

*This isn’t complicated. She had a great marriage and family. She never intended to lose them. The proof of that is now she’s willing to walk over hot coals to keep them. It was just meaningless sex on the side and no one was supposed to find out or get hurt.
* 
If she were asked at the beginning if she would give up her family for some hot sex she would have answered with a resounding NO!

The problem is that the sex isn’t such a low priority with Cam.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

ConanHub said:


> Wonder what her take on you dating and f'ing another woman for half a year would be?
> 
> Be interesting to examine her feelings about you doing exactly everything she did for six months.


I asked my wife that question the night we decided t try to r. She said I would have been devastated. I asked the why did you do it? Similar response to what Cam received. When she realized what she said she could not believe it. It was then and there she truly realized what I felt.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

ConanHub said:


> I am interested in it as an exercise.
> 
> I don't advocate RA's even though I understand them.
> 
> What would be interesting is for Cam to get dressed to the nines for a night on the town, maybe have a friend (female) accompany him and ask his wife on the way out the door how he looks?
> 
> He could go have a good time, make it a very late night (plutonic of course) and after he gets home, he could use it as an lead in to exploring her feelings about him doing the exact same thing to her.
> 
> Could be very beneficial to explore.
> 
> I still advocate for a hard spanking.


 Did the spanking with my wife last year after you recommend. LOL she said why did you do that? That my good man would be a Sun Tzu type of action. >


----------



## sokillme

Equity has never been a WS priority. I think most of them cheat knowing that their BS is going to take them back. They dynamic has already set up in the relationship. It's not hard to see when you read the posts. The lack of equity has already been established long before the affair. 

Yeah sure they were shocked, SHOCKED it tell you, when you warn them it could go the other way. There innocent child like minds could never conceive of such a thing. /s Yeah right.


----------



## straightshooter

cam42 said:


> I have been going to the gym as a hobby, it's been helping me to blow off some steam while helping my health. Yes two of her friends knew and they are both out of her life. One dropped my wife herself and the other my wife cut contact with. A co-worker of theirs also knew and my wife has cut contact with that person also. My wife is being nice but is maintaining her distance like I have asked. Everything just kind of seems like a stand still. She just goes to work comes home and goes to therapy, not much else. Now when the kids go up to their rooms and I find myself alone with her I just make myself busy with something else. When she talked about going to a psychologist, she told me all those reasons for the affair. Selfishness, her ego was stroked, did not think she would get caught, they never planned on leaving their spouses. Told her that reasoning was not good enough, but I have realized that no reason is really good enough to cheat. She has been hearing it from everyone, everyone seems to be quick to lose her temper with her including our kids.
> 
> I tell them that she is still their mother and to be respectful towards her. She seems to just take it and has been isolating herself for most of the day except dinner time and in the evening. The kids are usually in their rooms and she just asks me if there is anything I would like to talk about. I let her know I don't want that much contact besides about the kids or other things. She does text me everyday saying "I love you, hope you're having a good day" I usually just say "you too". I think detaching might be necessary in order for our marriage to be stronger. I can't be co-dependant.
> 
> She bought the book "How to help your spouse heal" and it came in today and she gave me it. Told me she thinks we should look over it together or I can do what I want with it. She already has a few books about this but told me this one has gotten good reviews so we will see. Not much of a reader to be honest but she is.


Cam,

Your wifes reasons, SELFISHNESS, EGO STROKED, DIDN'T THINK THEY WOULD GET CAUGHT. Well that probably could be said of 99% of WW reasons, and it is probably as valid an explanation as you are going to get. That is why I told you previously that its not that complicated as some folks want to make it. Can't remember a WW that did not use ego kibbles as a "reason". Again, you stated the reason earlier. BOREDOM with married life. For any reason you come up with or she does there are millions with the same feelings or situations who DO NOT CHEAT . A certain percentage of people with weight issues will become obese, and a certain percentage will be able to stay out of the refrigerator. Temptation was there and she bit and what you have to decide is if you can "live" with it. I'd stop chasing this ever elusive why. She just told you truthfully why, and it does not have to be some deep seated physchological problem.

Very strange this friend drops your wife. My guess is this was the chief cheerleader. And I'm not so sure that I would believe only one co worker knew. She was too eager to quit the job. 

Next question or recommendation from me is for you to get an update on status of OM and his wife. OM was in same position as your wife but OBS may not have decided not to divorce him. I really think you should find that out because I'm still not buying that their "good bye" conversation was just some sort of "cold" business type conversation. And he knows how to get hold of her, and believe it or not, she is vulnerable because she is also in limbo, with good reason I might add.

Nothing anyone says at this point changes the dynamic. You have to decide if and when you can live with this. At least it appears she has learned and respected the space you are asking for, but she really has no choice on that one because she knows any wrong moves here does not result in what she wants.


----------



## sokillme

straightshooter said:


> Very strange this friend drops your wife.


Cam is this the friend that told you she saw them. If so maybe she was disgusted with her behavior and dropped her because of that. You may want to get the true story from the friend.


----------



## curious234

Cam's stand has evolved a lot since the beginning of the D day, Initially even with his wife some times responding to his comments in kind he was lamenting he could not think of divorce. Now with his wife doing everything he is asking her to do Cam has a very lapse attitude towards reconciliation and is bent on subjecting her to continuous subjugation, as a necessity for R. How far he wants to go in this process is not known at this time.


----------



## ABHale

I think Cam should go out and as he is heading for the door "hey how do I look?" to one of his kids. Then go out and have fun with the guys.


----------



## Red Sonja

MovingFrwrd said:


> She will never tell you a good enough reason to explain the cheating. That is the answer, because in reality, *there is no answer*.


Yeah, there *is *an answer, whether or not they will admit it is another story ...

There are those like my XH/WH that think “yeah, I wanted it and I am entitled to what I want”. He expected me to just accept his cheating, that he was sorry and take him back. During that final confrontation, where he said those exact quoted words, I told him that I was done and that there was no going back. I asked him to leave and he shoved me up against the wall (grinding an erection into me) and forcefully kissed me while I was pinned. I shoved him back and told him to get the **** out. As he walked out the door he looked back and said “I just wanted to see if you could still resist me” while smiling. I kid you not, this happened after we were married for 28 years and, everyone that knows him would tell you that he is a “great guy”.

And there you have a look into the mindset of (some of) these cheating ass-hats. In that moment he showed me who he truly was, he “showed his hand” and it was shocking to know that people like that existed. I was fundamentally changed that day, right to the core.

Cam, be absolutely sure that you truly know the person who you are attempting to forgive/reconcile with.


----------



## ABHale

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> I asked my wife that question the night we decided t try to r. She said I would have been devastated. I asked the why did you do it? Similar response to what Cam received. When she realized what she said she could not believe it. It was then and there she truly realized what I felt.


Your wife will never know what you felt unless you did the same to her. She can guess at it but that is all.


----------



## unconditional-love

The full truth has to come out before you can move forward


----------



## ConanHub

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> Did the spanking with my wife last year after you recommend. LOL she said why did you do that? That my good man would be a Sun Tzu type of action. >


You just moved up farther in my esteem.

Well done sir.


----------



## Malaise

ABHale said:


> Your wife will never know what you felt unless you did the same to her. She can guess at it but that is all.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Cheaters have no empathy ( among other things ) for their partners. It's all about their entitlement and gratification .


----------



## drifting on

Cam, as you watch your wife's actions, do you detect remorse from her? Do you detect that she is feeling your true pain? Please be careful when you answer these questions, she could still be feeling regret. A while back I asked you to ask your wife some questions, have you? I also said not to listen to her answers, the point was to ask, to help move her towards seeing the damage she caused. A side effect of those questions can help lead one to empathy and remorse. She is now seeing exactly what her actions have caused. 

Where you are now is to talk with your wife, find some answers. Talking to your wife can be both a harm and healing. Learning anything new would be devastating, I hope that doesn't happen. Talking can help to make your decision a little easier. You must still trust but verify, but by talking you may learn she is a good candidate to be offered the gift of reconciliation, or that she is a good candidate to divorce. What I'm saying is, that at some point you have to come back to the table. At some point you will have to discuss this in detail with your wife. 

By all means you do this at your time schedule. For me, talking to my wife found I could offer the gift of reconciliation. She sat and answered every question I had, no matter how difficult to answer. In my opinion, sitting and realizing in front of me caused her remorse to be worse then it was previously. Discussing the affair brought all of her bad decisions to a new level, seeing my pain brought her to a new level, wondering what I would decide was at a new level. 

As for why she cheated, and what that answer is, I have found there is no answer. No matter what answer people give on this thread, it's not the answer, my response of no answer included. Cam, the reality is that whatever answer is given, it will not be an answer you can accept. You can't justify within yourself as to why your wife had an affair. No matter what is said you will think there has to be more to it. That is why no answer works for me and possibly for you. The important part is that your wife recognizes what was broken in her to have an affair. That this gets repaired in IC and boundaries without exception be put in place. From there a foundation can be built, from there your wife can grow, and from there she can become a healthy spouse for you or in her next relationship. It takes hard work, and I hope your wife has it in her to become a better person so that she becomes a better mother. Your girls are going to need her, they will learn from her, and by becoming a better person I'm hoping your daughters see it can be done.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

cam42 said:


> I have been going to the gym as a hobby, it's been helping me to blow off some steam while helping my health. Yes two of her friends knew and they are both out of her life. One dropped my wife herself and the other my wife cut contact with. A co-worker of theirs also knew and my wife has cut contact with that person also. My wife is being nice but is maintaining her distance like I have asked. Everything just kind of seems like a stand still. She just goes to work comes home and goes to therapy, not much else. Now when the kids go up to their rooms and I find myself alone with her I just make myself busy with something else. When she talked about going to a psychologist, she told me all those reasons for the affair. Selfishness, her ego was stroked, did not think she would get caught, they never planned on leaving their spouses. Told her that reasoning was not good enough, but I have realized that no reason is really good enough to cheat. She has been hearing it from everyone, everyone seems to be quick to lose her temper with her including our kids.
> 
> I tell them that she is still their mother and to be respectful towards her. She seems to just take it and has been isolating herself for most of the day except dinner time and in the evening. The kids are usually in their rooms she just asks me if there is anything I would like to talk about. I let her know I don't want that much contact besides about the kids or other things. She does text me everyday saying "I love you, hope you're having a good day" I usually just say "you too". I think detaching might be necessary in order for our marriage to be stronger. I can't be co-dependant.
> 
> She bought the book "How to help your spouse heal" and it came in today and she gave me it. Told me she thinks we should look over it together or I can do what I want with it. She already has a few books about this but told me this one has gotten good reviews so we will see. Not much of a reader to be honest but she is.


Cam,

I see three positives. First she has eliminated toxic friends. Second, the results of the polygraph. Third, the fact that she is in counseling. That tells me she wants to do what she can to save your marriage. I also have an inkling from your posts she is very likely at the remorse stage. However, keep doing the 180. For some reason it seems counter intuitive, but it works.

Keep hitting the gym. That will make you feel better and your sex rank will climb. Should you go the D route, that will benefit you greatly. While I was away I hit it hard in the weight room and gym, and when I returned after five weeks I was in better shape than I was at 34 and I am 54. At your age you should be able to knock it out of the park and get ripped quickly. That will make her panic. Let her know you are going to the gym. Flirt a bit with the ladies. I builds your confidence. When one of my wife's friends saw me three days before r, she told my wife. That since I lost weight, I would probably leave her. The really shook FWW. Stay the course.


----------



## ABHale

Cam are you still "in love with you wife", or has it changed?

Also are you ok with her not being in love with you. Let's be honest. She loves you yes but in what way? No one that is in love with their spouse can do what your wife did to you. This wasn't a ONS mistake. Or is it " O I'm in love with you again" from her?

This is why I have a hard time with stories like yours. There is no way you wife loved you as a husband during her affair or she would never of had one. So the feeling was gone long before the affair. She didn't fall out of love then the next day tell the AP let's f**k. Then magically it's back. I don't buy it.


----------



## sokillme

drifting on said:


> As for why she cheated, and what that answer is, I have found there is no answer. No matter what answer people give on this thread, it's not the answer, my response of no answer included.


There is an answer and it is pretty simple. They chose themselves over you. This is who they are, this is their character they just hid it. Not sure why this is so hard. Actually I am pretty sure why it is, I suspect that answer is too painful for a lot of people. Doesn't make it any less true. 

Cam if you want to really heal and move forward I suggest you come to terms with this. See it and who your wife if for what it is. This may be a disconnect from how you always felt about her but you will need to accept that you were wrong. This right here is who she is or at least was. 

I find the ones who don't accept it spend lots of time searching for a deeper answer and not really finding one. It is an emotional goose chase that you can find played out by people on these boards for years and years. All it does is cause more pain as the disconnect continues and is never resolved.


----------



## bandit.45

This is an amazing thread.


----------



## straightshooter

ABHale said:


> Cam are you still "in love with you wife", or has it changed?
> 
> Also are you ok with her not being in love with you. Let's be honest. She loves you yes but in what way? No one that is in love with their spouse can do what your wife did to you. This wasn't a ONS mistake. Or is it " O I'm in love with you again" from her?
> 
> This is why I have a hard time with stories like yours. There is no way you wife loved you as a husband during her affair or she would never of had one. So the feeling was gone long before the affair. She didn't fall out of love then the next day tell the AP let's f**k. Then magically it's back. I don't buy it.



Cam,

This is your big puzzle that you have to sort out. it's not about leaning to or wanting to reconcile. its about how do you get past this type of infidelity, and no it is not all the same. no ONS or drunken lust fest. Calculated lying, deceit, and yukking it up with girlfriends as well as in your face with you sitting in the room. Then not coming clean, breaking NC and "discussing" what they were going to do.
Then she initially refuses to even be truthful and moves back in despite your wanting space.

And presto, you file for divorce and she is like putty in your hands. And now the usual searching for that impossible for sure "why".

The only truthful thing here is that she probably was not going to leave you. Just fun!.

That is the demon you need to get over. And its a tough one.


----------



## Bloodinthecut

ABHale said:


> Cam are you still "in love with you wife", or has it changed?
> 
> Also are you ok with her not being in love with you. Let's be honest. She loves you yes but in what way? No one that is in love with their spouse can do what your wife did to you. This wasn't a ONS mistake. Or is it " O I'm in love with you again" from her?
> 
> This is why I have a hard time with stories like yours. There is no way you wife loved you as a husband during her affair or she would never of had one. So the feeling was gone long before the affair. She didn't fall out of love then the next day tell the AP let's f**k. Then magically it's back. I don't buy it.


This! This is more on point than a period. It's very true. 

R or D, polygraphs, the (malicious) intent, the feelings for OM. When it all falls down this is what it come too. I have said before: Yes, I believe you can have different romantic/love connections with several people but I don't think you can be "in love" with more than one. I agree, that if she was "in love" she wouldn't have had the affair. The feeling was gone before the affair. 

But what's love got to do with it? Marriage is more about commitment and duty than love. Is there "everlasting love?" Idk, the thing is that a marriage supersedes love.


----------



## ABHale

How are you Cam.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Cam, are you okay?


----------



## drifting on

Hoping Cam is ok and just busy focusing on himself and his girls.


----------



## ConanHub

Where is Waldo?

Stay healthy my man!

You have some great kids?


----------



## TDSC60

Cam,

Any updates?


----------



## becareful2

bandit.45 said:


> This is an amazing thread.


Reminds me of that thread about the wayward wife being a professor who got ratted out by some of the female students. The couple had three daughters and one evening, the eldest daughter unloaded on her mother. That thread got locked...


----------



## Sparta

becareful2 said:


> Reminds me of that thread about the wayward wife being a professor who got ratted out by some of the female students. The couple had three daughters and one evening, the eldest daughter unloaded on her mother. That thread got locked...


 That was another troll made up story from what I understand... i'm not totally positive but that's what I thought I read


----------



## Andy1001

Sparta said:


> That was another troll made up story from what I understand... i'm not totally positive but that's what I thought I read


Yeah he was a troll.


----------



## bandit.45

No I just think it's amazing the amount of traffic this thread gets given OP only moseyes in every three or four days to give updates...like he's filing expense reports. He doesn't really engage. 

Whatever...


----------



## ABHale

becareful2 said:


> Reminds me of that thread about the wayward wife being a professor who got ratted out by some of the female students. The couple had three daughters and one evening, the eldest daughter unloaded on her mother. That thread got locked...


It was not true. Just someone's imagination.


----------



## cam42

Feels like my life is a soap opera nowadays lol. My family and I are taking everything one day at a time. We have decided to reconcile. But we both know the marriage will never be like it was before. It's going to be led by me most of the time. Post nup is being put in place to protect myself. My wife has a **** ton of work to do. She knows she does. I work out more now and am focused on my happiness. She has been expressing extreme gratitude. Still reading her books and still going to individual counseling. 

I think for now I will chime in on other threads of members here to see if I can help others how I have been helped. Thanks everyone.


----------



## 225985

cam42 said:


> Feels like my life is a soap opera nowadays
> 
> I think for now I will chime in on other threads of members here to see if I can help others how I have been helped. Thanks everyone.


Your fans love your show. Seems like though it is being cancelled or going on hiatus. 

Good decision to stop posting here in this thread for a while. At some point, your thread becomes counterproductive to your progress.

Good luck.


----------



## bandit.45

cam42 said:


> Feels like my life is a soap opera nowadays lol. My family and I are taking everything one day at a time. We have decided to reconcile. But we both know the marriage will never be like it was before. It's going to be led by me most of the time. Post nup is being put in place to protect myself. My wife has a **** ton of work to do. She knows she does. I work out more now and am focused on my happiness. She has been expressing extreme gratitude. Still reading her books and still going to individual counseling.
> 
> I think for now I will chime in on other threads of members here to see if I can help others how I have been helped. Thanks everyone.


Make her earn it...everyday.


----------



## curious234

wish your family best of luck. Your younger daughter will really appreciate your gesture


----------



## ABHale

Best of luck Cam.


----------



## Drumstick

Thanks for the update, Cam. Don't forget to post in the reconciliation forum if you have questions moving forward.

Proving adultery in most states requires direct evidence, such as pictures of the act, semen in underwear, a letter or email admitting the act, a confession, etc. So, standard post-nups only kick-in with this level of proof. For further safety, you may also want to add in indirect, circumstantial, evidence that overwhelmingly suggests an affair, such as emails, texts, love you notes, etc. You may even consider adding in a definition for adultery to include physical acts, as well as emotional acts, to cover both standard and emotional affairs. Check with your lawyer about this, and discuss a validity/enforceability clause concerning indirect evidence with your attorney as well.


----------



## sokillme

I wish you good luck.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

You are going to be fine Cam 42. Godspeed sir!


----------



## Taxman

Cam
Only the best, sir!


----------



## ConanHub

Doesn't pass the sniff test for me yet.

Stay healthy and make sure you are making good decisions for yourself and your children first.

Hope your wife recovers from her bout with harlot fever.

Take care dude.


----------



## drifting on

Cam42

Although I still feel you should have waited six months for some of the turmoil to wind down, I can understand you making a choice. This is your life to live, your choices, and your marriage. With that said I hope you have prepared yourself the best you can for reconciliation. That you have spoken to your wife as to what reconciliation will entail from her side. You are going to have a long hard road to recovery, you both must be fully committed, and it can be done with extremely hard work. Your marriage can be better then before, but it's going to be very different also. 

One of the first things you need to put in place is boundaries, they are not negotiable and put in place by you. This is what you need your wife to follow, with expectations that breaking a boundary ends reconciliation and the marriage. She doesn't get another chance, no misunderstanding of your boundaries. Your boundaries are clear and she is to know them inside and out.

I encourage you to keep posting here in your thread, you may need advice on how to maneuver through this process. I wish you the best of luck.


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## becareful2

ABHale said:


> It was not true. Just someone's imagination.


My ellipsis. :wink2:


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## Finwe

CAM42

Thank you for sharing. I think you are doing a great job handling an amazingly difficult situation.


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## NoChoice

OP,
May I encourage you to keep posting here from time to time for others that may choose to R. There are arguments for and against and hearing outcomes from real situations may help some to attempt it or not depending on how their situation compares to others who have successfully R. Good fortune to you and your family.


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## Edmund

Is this your wife? https://www.reddit.com/user/wanderingwife75


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife had a 6 month &quot;emotional affair&quot; with a married man*

It doesn't sound like it.


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## kbos824

CAM 42, I just joined this site today, and yours is the first thread I've read. And, my story is EXACTLY the same as yours. I truly sympathize with you. My husband has had an ongoing emotional affair with a woman at work for the last year (at least that's what he admits to). I had no idea it was going on until this past October when I intercepted some texts from her. There were red flags all over the place that I was ignoring. He was constantly on his phone texting, he wouldn't offer me any access to his phone, he would get angry if I questioned him on anything, and just blame me. After I saw the texts, he admitted to the affair. He's 45, and she was 29 at the start of it. Nice. They would sneak out in the mornings together and go for runs, they would register for the same races and run together, and drink together afterwards. And who knows how much texting/sexting was going on. He agreed at that point to stop, cut it off. I chose to forgive him, but trust was completely broken. We had been working HARD on our marriage (or at least I thought). Things were really improving. We were connecting, spending time together, enjoying each other again. He was making an effort to be really present. Then, the other night, I had a really serious case of intuition. He was out at a restaurant/bar after working at our CHURCH of all places, and he stopped in to grab a bite to eat, something that he does regularly. He was gone way too long, wasn't returning texts. I had a bad, bad feeling. So I drove over to the restaurant, and there he was, sitting at the bar with her. I am lost. He claims they have maintained texting throughout all our marriage work recently, even though he promised me otherwise. But he said their conversations were revolving around the fact that they needed to stop doing what they were doing. Whether that was true or not, they didn't need to meet a bar to discuss ANYTHING. So, I've been reeling the last few days, feeling totally numb and lost and PISSED. He admits to have falling deeply in love with her. But he says he knows that it can't happen, and he needs to stay in the marriage and be a husband and father, and he doesn't want to break up the marriage. But I don't know how to possibly move on .


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## sokillme

kbos824 said:


> CAM 42, I just joined this site today, and yours is the first thread I've read. And, my story is EXACTLY the same as yours. I truly sympathize with you. My husband has had an ongoing emotional affair with a woman at work for the last year (at least that's what he admits to). I had no idea it was going on until this past October when I intercepted some texts from her. There were red flags all over the place that I was ignoring. He was constantly on his phone texting, he wouldn't offer me any access to his phone, he would get angry if I questioned him on anything, and just blame me. After I saw the texts, he admitted to the affair. He's 45, and she was 29 at the start of it. Nice. They would sneak out in the mornings together and go for runs, they would register for the same races and run together, and drink together afterwards. And who knows how much texting/sexting was going on. He agreed at that point to stop, cut it off. I chose to forgive him, but trust was completely broken. We had been working HARD on our marriage (or at least I thought). Things were really improving. We were connecting, spending time together, enjoying each other again. He was making an effort to be really present. Then, the other night, I had a really serious case of intuition. He was out at a restaurant/bar after working at our CHURCH of all places, and he stopped in to grab a bite to eat, something that he does regularly. He was gone way too long, wasn't returning texts. I had a bad, bad feeling. So I drove over to the restaurant, and there he was, sitting at the bar with her. I am lost. He claims they have maintained texting throughout all our marriage work recently, even though he promised me otherwise. But he said their conversations were revolving around the fact that they needed to stop doing what they were doing. Whether that was true or not, they didn't need to meet a bar to discuss ANYTHING. So, I've been reeling the last few days, feeling totally numb and lost and PISSED. He admits to have falling deeply in love with her. But he says he knows that it can't happen, and he needs to stay in the marriage and be a husband and father, and he doesn't want to break up the marriage. But I don't know how to possibly move on .


I'm very sorry for you. Start your own thread if you haven't.


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## 225985

kbos824 said:


> CAM 42, I just joined this site today, and yours is the first thread I've read. And, my story is EXACTLY the same as yours. I truly sympathize with you. My husband has had an ongoing emotional affair with a woman at work for the last year (at least that's what he admits to). I had no idea it was going on until this past October when I intercepted some texts from her. There were red flags all over the place that I was ignoring. He was constantly on his phone texting, he wouldn't offer me any access to his phone, he would get angry if I questioned him on anything, and just blame me. After I saw the texts, he admitted to the affair. He's 45, and she was 29 at the start of it. Nice. They would sneak out in the mornings together and go for runs, they would register for the same races and run together, and drink together afterwards. And who knows how much texting/sexting was going on. He agreed at that point to stop, cut it off. I chose to forgive him, but trust was completely broken. We had been working HARD on our marriage (or at least I thought). Things were really improving. We were connecting, spending time together, enjoying each other again. He was making an effort to be really present. Then, the other night, I had a really serious case of intuition. He was out at a restaurant/bar after working at our CHURCH of all places, and he stopped in to grab a bite to eat, something that he does regularly. He was gone way too long, wasn't returning texts. I had a bad, bad feeling. So I drove over to the restaurant, and there he was, sitting at the bar with her. I am lost. He claims they have maintained texting throughout all our marriage work recently, even though he promised me otherwise. But he said their conversations were revolving around the fact that they needed to stop doing what they were doing. Whether that was true or not, they didn't need to meet a bar to discuss ANYTHING. So, I've been reeling the last few days, feeling totally numb and lost and PISSED. He admits to have falling deeply in love with her. But he says he knows that it can't happen, and he needs to stay in the marriage and be a husband and father, and he doesn't want to break up the marriage. But I don't know how to possibly move on .




Young Lady,

Please cut and paste your post into a new thread in the coping with infidelity forum. Do that and help will come.


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## bandit.45

Betting time. 

I give it two months tops before he's back. Anyone want to play?


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## giddiot

bandit.45 said:


> Betting time.
> 
> 
> 
> I give it two months tops before he's back. Anyone want to play?




I agree


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SunCMars

bandit.45 said:


> Betting time.
> 
> I give it two months tops before he's back. Anyone want to play?


I want him back. She has to go. No mercy.


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## bandit.45

SunCMars said:


> I want him back. She has to go. No mercy.


Take another drag off your spliff and go to your happy place SunC.


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## straightshooter

bandit.45 said:


> Betting time.
> 
> I give it two months tops before he's back. Anyone want to play?


Depends

If he goes to sleep at the switch and thinks because OM is not in office anymore that he is out of picture, I agree. I still think he better get hold of more info on her "work friends". I'm not buying that they are to be trusted not to try to hook them up again.

Time will tell.

Cam, if I were you I'd spring another poly at some point.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

I agree with you bandit. I tried to wean away, but R is tough, and I need/needed a place to vent.


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## sokillme

bandit.45 said:


> Betting time.
> 
> I give it two months tops before he's back. Anyone want to play?


I thinking this is more like a 6 years later kind of thing. The ones where it seems good for a while but the WS brokenness creeps back into the picture.

Cam could also go through a mid life crisis as many men are known to do and if I was Mrs. Cam I would be ****ting bricks. I don't envy the WS when that happens. You read lots of post from WW who cheat early and then are in panic mode when their husbands hits their mid 40's and the loyalty bond men have with their wives hasn't been there for a while.


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## Marriedppl2talk2

I'm sorry about that, I too have experienced the same thing. 300 days of mental infidelity. But the question I will always have is that if they never got caught up would it have stopped. I'm praying for you and your family recovery. Stay Above Above The Waters.


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## stillthinking

> Cam could also go through a mid life crisis as many men are known to do and if I was Mrs. Cam I would be ****ting bricks. I don't envy the WS when that happens. You read lots of post from WW who cheat early and then are in panic mode when their husbands hits their mid 40's and the loyalty bond men have with their wives hasn't been there for a while.


I have also seen this among colleagues. The wife cheats when the guy is in his 30's or early 40's. He sticks around. Then a few years later the younger ladies at the office are paying him a lot of attention. His SMV is high. He has a career, some money, a touch of gray hair on the temples. To them he is distinguished, mature, a catch. Meanwhile his cheating wife is older, many times a bit heavier, some crows feet and liver spots showing up. She is not stacking up well against the younger models at work, and remember, they have not cheated on him. 

He takes a look at her and thinks, "hell with it, she got to have her fun, now its my turn."

Not saying its a good idea. Just that I have seen it happen more than once.


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## sokillme

stillthinking said:


> I have also seen this among colleagues. The wife cheats when the guy is in his 30's or early 40's. He sticks around. Then a few years later the younger ladies at the office are paying him a lot of attention. His SMV is high. He has a career, some money, a touch of gray hair on the temples. To them he is distinguished, mature, a catch. Meanwhile his cheating wife is older, many times a bit heavier, some crows feet and liver spots showing up. She is not stacking up well against the younger models at work, and remember, they have not cheated on him.
> 
> He takes a look at her and thinks, "hell with it, she got to have her fun, now its my turn."
> 
> Not saying its a good idea. Just that I have seen it happen more than once.


That's the risk they take. It's hard for even the best men when they start to realize there youth is gone, now throw into the mix the wife that has stabbed you in the back. The pain is still there every day, the triggers, the doubt. If the guy was always a good man and successful. Look out, he starts thinking, what the hell am I doing here. He doesn't even have to cheat maybe he just decides that it is not worth the effort and he can do better. 

Another big one is when the trauma goes away. It can take a few years, but the they live with the self-doubt and fight through it and it's really only the doubt that kept them holding on. Maybe it is just age that has given them confidence because when you get older most people get a different mindset. Other peoples opinion stops mattering so much. Once that is gone there is no love left to keep the guy, that was killed by the affair. How many posts do you read from men 5 - 10 years out who just don't really care or respect their wives anymore because of what they did. They no longer have the fear and they just want to move on. His wife showed him no loyalty so he doesn't feel the need to show her any. 

The adultery never goes away.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Cam, is everything going well?


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## SunCMars

I went camping in the woods of Maine last week with three other fishermen. We spent a lot of time in my tent. It was the biggest. It rained most of the time.

At night we could hear wolves or coyotes howling. Off in the distance. The other guys were anxious. 

I went out in the night and howled back....

The echoes sounded like Marc and Bandit and Sokillme. 

Howling after some wayward ***** in heat. She was getting down. She was whimpering and rowling from somewhere deep within her gut. 

She was getting her due. Filtered through the rainy and wet hills and dales, her ambient moans came out of her "do point". Her orgasmic screech was thrust straight into their tortured ears. 

She, the traitorous ***** was getting her dew. A warm wet dew spurting from a lone grey wolf.

A caccony of howls from the wolves who got none, in one-hundred percent humidity, her canine grin shew nary a semblance of humility


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Cam,

Is everything going your way now?


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## Mr Blunt

Based on Cam’s last several posts I would guess that Cam is working on his reconciliation. Cam has not posted in over 5 months and that maybe a good sign for R. If things were going bad I would assume that CAM would be posting here. 

It seems that some people that want to R and are doing well stop posting so much. I know that it has been said that TAM has a lot more posters that favor D than R so I am wondering if that is a factor?

Reprinted below are a few of the lines in Cam’s most recent posts that were in March 2017.



> By CAM
> She said she will do anything not to lose me and our marriage and so far she has.
> 
> ". I think detaching might be necessary in order for our marriage to be stronger. I can't be co-dependant.
> 
> She bought the book "How to help your spouse heal" and it came in today and she gave me it. Told me she thinks we should look over it together or I can do what I want with it
> 
> *We have decided to reconcile*.. Post nup is being put in place to protect myself I work out more now and am focused on my happiness. She has been expressing extreme gratitude. Still reading her books and still going to individual counseling.


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## SunCMars

Mr Blunt said:


> Based on Cam’s last several posts I would guess that Cam is working on his reconciliation. Cam has not posted in over 5 months and that maybe a good sign for R. If things were going bad I would assume that CAM would be posting here.
> 
> It seems that some people that want to R and are doing well stop posting so much. I know that it has been said that TAM has a lot more posters that favor D than R so I am wondering if that is a factor?
> 
> Reprinted below are a few of the lines in Cam’s most recent posts that were in March 2017.


This is one of those posts that cost me my heart.

I swallowed it.

I crapped it out..

It was still beating.

It's head against the Wall.

Not in Jerusalem,

In Jericho.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Status report Cam? Hope all is well.


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