# Advice on NPD



## jacko jack (Feb 19, 2015)

I have been married for 8 years now, I am 63 and my wife is 59. I have been to counselling but my wife has refused to go, I have researched our problems and I think that she has NPD, she did not bond with her mother at a young age. Does anybody have any advice on how to deal with NPD, I feel very sorry for her. Many thanks in anticipation.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Seek Uptown. He's got experience with dealing with a spouse with NPD/BPD.


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## Kitt (Jun 3, 2015)

@Uptown


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Jacko, I'm sorry to hear that you suspect your W is a narcissist. If true, it would mean she is incapable of loving you or anyone else. It also would mean that she is emotionally stable. Ironically, narcissists are stable because they are so totally out of touch with their true selves that they are unaware that their false self image is false. In contrast, BPDers are out of touch with their true selves but, because they realize they do not know who they are, they do realize that their false self image is fake. This realization contributes to the BPDer being emotionally unstable. It therefore would be very helpful if you could tell us whether your W has actually ever loved you -- and whether you find her behavior to be emotionally stable?


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## jacko jack (Feb 19, 2015)

She has always seemed distant, yes I know that probably, I should not have contemplated marrying her. I suppose that I was encouraged by her interest in me. I do not want to overthink this but, she never had a relationship with her own mother, it seems that her mother rejected her at birth and her father took her to various places around the world with the army. On reading some of the points about NPD, and looking at some of the videos on youtube, it seems that she shows some of the signs of NPD. Intimacy has been non-existent since the marriage night, I get the feeling that she indulged in the act simply so that she can say the marriage was consummated. I am at loss to know how to deal with this situation, she does not work and only has a pension of 32 pounds per month to herself, I pay for everything else. She has told me of various things, like being called the blow-job queen in previous relationships. I cannot remember feeling loved by her and when we did share a bed, she did not even like cuddling. I and other people have suggested counselling for both of us, I have been to counselling and indeed found it useful, she accused me of going to a prostitute when I went to see the counsellor. I have developed coping strategies over the years for dealing with the situation. She spends a great deal on dresses and shoes, which I am expected to pay for. Because of our ages, I have tended to masturbate in private, I have asked her to join me but she refuses, saying it is wrong and against the bible. I would simply like a normal relationship, I do hope you can help Uptown, but as it says in the material about NPD, I feel that I am treading on eggshells.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

jacko jack said:


> I am at loss to know how to deal with this situation.


Jack, if your W really is a full-blown narcissist, "divorce" is how you deal with it because there is virtually no chance of her ever loving you or having the emotional maturity to sustain a real marriage. 



jacko jack said:


> It seems that she has a form of NPD, mainly from not being accepted by her mother as a child.


Perhaps so, Jack. Yet, NPD is just one of several personality disorders that are believed to be caused by a non-validating experience in early childhood with an emotionally unavailable mother. Hence, before you jump to that conclusion, it would be prudent to consider some other possibilities. This is why I suggest, below, that you tell us what red flags you're seeing.



> I have been to counseling and indeed found it useful


Although many of us TAM members can help you learn how to spot the warning signs for various disorders, we cannot provide a diagnosis of your W's issues. Only a professional can do that, i.e., determine whether her traits are so severe and persistent as to meet the diagnostic criteria for "having NPD" or having another full-blown PD. 

Unfortunately, if your W has a disorder such as NPD or BPD, there is little chance of you obtaining a formal diagnosis from a professional. To do such a diagnosis, the professional must see your W and, hence, will be ethically bound to protect HER best interests, not yours. Hence, in the event she really does have NPD or BPD, it is unlikely the psych will ever tell her -- much less tell you -- the name of her disorder. Doing so would almost certainly mean she would immediately quit therapy and, in the unlikely event she remained in therapy, it would likely mean the insurance company would refuse to cover treatments.

Consequently, your best chance of obtaining a professional assessment is to see YOUR OWN psychologist. Because he has never seen your W, he will be unable to render a formal diagnosis -- but he will be ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers. And he will be able to give you a candid professional opinion of what it is you're likely dealing with -- based on your own descriptions of what has occurred over the past 8 years of marriage. 

If his reliance on "your own descriptions" seems shabby and one-sided, please keep in mind that a psychologist treating your W has an even greater handicap. Because he sees her only once a week for 50 minutes, and because narcissists and BPDers are masters at hiding their dark side, it may take him two years to see the behaviors you see all week long.

I therefore am interested in what your "counselor" told you about your situation. What did he say about NPD, BPD, menopause, or other issues? Does he have a Ph.D. in psychology, i.e., is he a psychologist or a psychiatrist?



> It seems that she shows some of the signs of NPD.


It would be helpful if you would be more specific. Please tell us which of the following NPD traits have been strong and persistent over your 8 years of marriage:


> Expects to be recognized as superior and special, without superior accomplishments.
> Expects constant attention, admiration and positive reinforcement from others.
> Envies others and believes others envy him/her.
> Is preoccupied with thoughts and fantasies of great success, enormous attractiveness, power, intelligence.
> ...


Significantly, NPD is oftentimes mistaken for BPD (Borderline PD). Moreover, those two disorders frequently occur together. Indeed, a 2008 study (i.e., face to face interviews with nearly 35,000 American adults) found that 41% of women having NPD also had co-occurring full-blown BPD. I therefore suggest you take a quick look at my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most of those signs sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings any bells, Jack, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you.


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## jacko jack (Feb 19, 2015)

Many thanks for this Uptown.
Divorce, well that is another subject, I do not want to be divorced at my time of life, mainly because of my wife's lack of finance and property. I realise that she cannot be diagnosed via computer, but it seems she would like to be the dominant party in the marriage instead of having equal shares or partnership. The counsellor was a Pyschotherapist.

She certainly shows signs of 1) She indicated that she had been mayor of a town at the age of 26/27, she did not, we all tell white lies but I cannot see why she would make this up. At the moment 2) is just the opposite, I have tried to give her praise and sympathy, however she just rejects it, however, it seems that she would like constant admiration from others. In 3) she envies other peoples homes as one example, she says that she has had seventeen miscarriages, I feel for her because I think she really wanted a child of her own. When we first got together, before marriage, she would have sex every night, said she was known as the blow-job queen. I wonder however, if she had that much sex or love. I am not sure about 4) as for 5) when I was in hospital last year she did not show much empathy and has not shown much concern for my desires both sexual and financial. She does not want a cuddle in bed or just to talk, we now do not sleep together, sex has not taken place since the marriage day, eight years ago. I suppose that it is a collection of everything, rather than just one thing.

Thanks once again for this, what I am looking for is strategies and ways of treating her so that it does not make her worse.


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## jacko jack (Feb 19, 2015)

One thing I forgot to mention was that she accused me of going to a prostitute when I went to the counsellor, this really caused me concern. I did not go to a prostitute, I realise that most women could say, O yes no sex in eight years, he must be getting it somewhere, my relief is masturbation as she will not make love or even have a cuddle, and she criticises me for masturbating in private, I have asked her to join me but she said no. I am beginning to wonder if she has had much sexual experience at the age of 59. How does this fit into any disorder etc?. Many thanks in anticipation for any help.


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## jacko jack (Feb 19, 2015)

Another point when I went away on a conference for a couple of days, two years, she spent £700 about $1000 on a bingo site in two days, any comments on this please, it seems to me to be a little bizarre. She even told me what areas not to go to in the City I went too, because this was the red light area????. Yes she does re-invent history to her advantage.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

jacko jack said:


> I do not want to be divorced at my time of life, mainly because of my wife's lack of finance and property.


Jack, I was about your age when I divorced my BPDer exW. Living with a personality disordered woman eventually becomes very painful if she has strong traits of the disorder. Given that your W has withheld sex throughout your 8-year marriage, it is very unlikely you would be willing to stay married to her if -- in addition to being sexless -- she also has strong NPD traits. There must be _something_ about this woman that you like a lot. What is it?



> It seems she would like to be the dominant party in the marriage instead of having equal shares or partnership.


If so, this means she is very controlling -- a characteristic of BPD and several other PDs. It is not limited to people having NPD. Did you have time to look at my list of 18 BPD warning signs? If so, did most of them sound very familiar?



> The counselor was a Psychotherapist.


So, given that you saw him many times, what did he say is likely wrong with your W?



> What I am looking for is *strategies and ways of treating her* so that it does not make her worse.


If your W really does have strong traits of NPD or BPD, she has a "thought disorder" that has existed since early childhood. This means her emotional development was frozen at that young age, preventing her from learning the more mature emotional skills that the rest of us were able to acquire. And it means she never developed a healthy self image of herself, forcing her to seek an "identity" in other people. Moreover, because she's been thinking this way since childhood, all of these deficiencies are "egosyntonic," i.e., are invisible to her because they are so "normal" by her way of thinking. This is why it is rare for high-functioning narcissists and BPDers to have sufficient self awareness to see their own issues.

As to "ways of treating her," you likely already know there is no cure for NPD or BPD. In most major cities, however, there are excellent programs (e.g., DBT and CBT) wherein professionals teach these people how to better manage their issues. That is, they teach them a set of emotional skills and mature ego defenses that were never learned in childhood. But, sadly, it is rare for a BPDer or NPDer to have sufficient self awareness and ego strength to remain in such a program long enough to make a real difference. The success rate for BPDers likely is below 1% -- and NPD is even more difficult to treat.


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## jacko jack (Feb 19, 2015)

Many thanks Uptown, very interesting, I have looked at your 18 points and some of them ring true. The counsellor was a woman. I will consider all your points and decide what to do.


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