# The last attempt



## 71Climber

So, here goes. I hope there are those out there who can relate. My wife and I have been married for 20 years, and we have 4 children. Over the past 5+ years, I have been "recovering" from sexual addiction, and the reason I use quotations is because the recovery has not been clean. It has been very much like a roller coaster, with good times of sobriety, and not-so-good times as well. When I say sexual addiction, I mean a pornography addiction, which began when I found a neighbor's magazine stash when I was about 11 years old, unbeknown to my parents, which progressed to an almost daily ritual. When my wife and I got married, and int those years, I didn't call it an addiction, but that's what it was. Looking back now at my intimacy with my wife, I realize it has always been dysfunctional, because much of our sexual relationship was very selfish and controlling by me, driven by the fantasy-type scenarios which porn propagates. My wife had no idea that I would watch porn, but she found out probably 15 years ago. We didn't deal with it then, simply swept it under the rug, and I continued to struggle privately. The pornography addiction advanced to chatting, even emailing from the chatting, etc. Although I never have had a physical affair with anyone, I have had several mind and heart affairs through the images I have seen and the people I have communicated with. Over the past 4 years, my wife and I have been separated for about 2.5 years of that time, and for the past 20 months consecutively. I live only 5 minutes away, so as to remain in close contact with the kids and available. Despite all of this, and this only scratches the surface, as there is a lot of junk in my wife's childhood and life that compound things, we do love each other. Love is present, but we find ourselves now in a strange place. There is something worth looking up, and it's called Sternberg's Triangular Theory of love. My wife and I have friendship love and companionate love, but our physical relationship has died. W have not had sex for over 2 years in the midst of all of this. In the midst of all of this, in the midst of the relationship tumult, my wife gained maybe 40-50 pounds as she was consuming much alcohol to medicate the pain, and, at the same time, she said "I don't care how I look for you anymore". Now, I am in a good place in my recovery, sober, and getting healthy, and although my wife and I do relate well to each other, I have no idea what healthy intimacy looks like with her. I do not think of her as a sexual being anymore. There is nothing that we do to entice the other, flirt with each other, or make each other feel wanted or important, a consequence of everything we've been through. And it has been a long time. We both agree that we are framing the next 6 months as a special period of separation, at the end of which, if we are both in healthy places emotionally-trustworthy, honest, sober, and having integrity, that if we still are not able to relate to one another in a way that would exist within a marriage relationship, that it may be time to move on. I cannot imagine a passion-less, desire-less marriage. I feel that there is effort required on both of our parts to move towards each other by the end of that time, at the end of that time. For my part, and this is where I really need commentary, especially from the females, I believe that I must be about a few things: 1. Surrender my sexuality to God, and ask Him to change me, to give me eyes for my wife, after all we have been through, to help my struggle, 2. To get healthy myself, at all costs, and 3. Relate to my wife in such a way that it motivates her to move towards me; help her to feel loved and cared for during this time of separation, in an entirely non-sexual way(making her life as easy as I can, being available, helping her, listening to her, being patient, loving our children, kind, thoughtful, just being different). I want to attempt to meet needs that she may have in a subtle, unselfish, and consistent way, always looking for different ways to do so. I want to speak her love language. But, in doing so, the way in which I want her to move towards me is in the physical realm. I want her to want to take care of herself for me. What would speak to me at the end of this 6 months is for her to move towards me physically-to somehow, someway indicate to me that she wants me to look at her, that she wants to entice me, to draw me in. If she took control of her diet and began to exercise consistently, doing it first for herself, but wanting me to notice, she would have me. I love her, but I want to WANT her as well, and in a healthy way, not the way we have related in the past. Am I being selfish? Is that too much to ask? I am very fit, and so I do not ask as one who isn't also working hard to stay that way.


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## EleGirl

Just a quick note here.. I deleted your other thread since only one thread allowed per topic. The other thread was a duplicate of this one.

Also, please edit your thread and add paragraphs. It's hard to read a wall of text.


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## EleGirl

My bet is that your wife has put up walls to protect herself from your acting out sexually. Few people could emotionally survive what you have put her through without those sorts of walls. So she has shut herself down sexually. 

Her weight and not taking care of herself is part of that wall. 

What sort of counseling has she had to deal with what she has been through?

What sort of marriage counseling have the two of you been through?


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## Faithful Wife

71Climber said:


> Looking back now at my intimacy with my wife, I realize it has always been dysfunctional, because much of our sexual relationship was very selfish and controlling by me, driven by the fantasy-type scenarios which porn propagates. ...
> 
> The pornography addiction advanced to chatting, even emailing from the chatting, etc. Although I never have had a physical affair with anyone, I have had several mind and heart affairs through the images I have seen and the people I have communicated with. ...
> 
> In the midst of all of this, in the midst of the relationship tumult, my wife gained maybe 40-50 pounds as she was consuming much alcohol to medicate the pain, and, at the same time, she said "I don't care how I look for you anymore". ...
> 
> I do not think of her as a sexual being anymore. ...
> 
> I want her to want to take care of herself for me. What would speak to me at the end of this 6 months is for her to move towards me physically-to somehow, someway indicate to me that she wants me to look at her, that she wants to entice me, to draw me in. If she took control of her diet and began to exercise consistently, doing it first for herself, but wanting me to notice, she would have me. I love her, but I want to WANT her as well, and in a healthy way, not the way we have related in the past. Am I being selfish? Is that too much to ask? I am very fit, and so I do not ask as one who isn't also working hard to stay that way.


Ok...it does sound like you love your wife in some parts of your post. But I just broke out the parts that are very difficult to read without feeling sad for your wife. It sounds like you....

compared her to women in porn

expected her to look and act like women in porn

pressured her to do so

disrespected what she actually wanted to do and controlled the sex to your own wishes

eventually started chatting with other women and had EA's

....and literally broke her self esteem in the process.

Now she doesn't care how she looks for you, she has developed a drinking problem just to handle the pain you've caused her, and yet...you still want her to prioritize being attractive to you and fulfill you sexually.

It is funny because on another thread I am discussing how important I believe attraction is, and that it is a necessary component for me in a relationship (to feel mutual attraction with my partner). And yet, if someone did to me what you have done to your wife, I would never even want them to be attracted to me again. I wouldn't want them to touch me again, either. It would just hurt too much, if what you wrote was a fair portion of the truth (and I suspect there's so much more to it and you've downplayed it) I just could not ever feel loved and cherished by you, no matter what you did.

I do wish you luck, I just don't know how you'll ever repair the wounds you've delivered to her self esteem. If it were me it couldn't be done.


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## jimrich

Re: and we have 4 children.
IMO, any parent needs to put the wellbeing of their kids way out in front of every other obligation so I'd do whatever it takes to make sure my parenting does NOT damage my kids and can HELP them grow up healthy and happy.
good luck....


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## becareful2

OP,

You've wrecked your 20 year marriage with porn and multiple emotional affairs. You swore before God and man to love and honor your wife, but you expected her to be a porn star and do things that she may feel degrading to her. How does that honor her to tear down her self-esteem and self-worth? You are the adulterer in your marriage, you are the serial cheater, but now you expect your wife to make herself attractive and presentable to you? OMG, have you any idea what you've done to your poor wife? Do you understand how much you have abused her psychologically and emotionally? Your actions drove her to the bottle to numb her pain. She's given you the best years of her life and you've been a selfish prick, but you now expect her to draw closer to you? If that doesn't reek of an entitlement mentality, I don't know what does. You throw the word "love" around so cavalierly, but people like you have no concept of what love is. Love is patient, love is kind; love protects and nurtures. You've done the opposite of all those things! 

You say you've turned over your sexuality to God but you've given her a timetable to make herself to want you sexually or you'd walk away and abandon your wife. Holy Mary, how is that being patient and kind? It's all about you and what you want, and what you need. What about her? Have you thought about the hell that you've put her in? Where's your empathy?

You want to heal the rift between you and her? Then go to her; fall down on your knees. Humble yourself before your wife whom you've wrong, in front of your children. Confessed your sins to her and to your children and beg them for their forgiveness. See if you have the integrity to do that! I doubt it. You've wrong them, so you need their forgiveness, but no forgiveness can be given until confessions are made. Set the example for them, to show them what being a righteous man really means.


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## 71Climber

Faithful Wife, thank you for your honest appraisal. That's why I posted. Yes, there is much messiness that I have created these past many years. I haven't ever been with another woman physically, and yet the time with pornography, and in the chat room are wounds which I am responsible for creating. The points you make are all valid, and tremendously valuable for me to see someone else make, someone who is not involved in our situation. I need to be able to see things from her perspective, and yet somehow in an objective way, without the emotion. My wife is an amazing woman, she truly is, and I do love her. We have both undergone a tremendous amount of counseling, we relate well, and I still believe we can enjoy a marriage unlike we have experienced in the past. It is a process handled carefully and patiently, and requires commitment on both of our parts. I hope that we can establish a new covenant between us, a testimony to God's faithfulness to us, not our faithfulness to Him. I have broken that trust, but am working on getting it back. Along the way, I need to be reminded of the impact of my actions, and the amends that must be made. I am fortunate in that my wife wants everything to work out between us. The years of porn and its associated results prevent true intimacy. Anyone who believes that pornography is "healthy" is very naive. It is a destroyer of intimacy. We are starting over from scratch, I am optimistic because I am seeking to discover and live in my true self, with integrity and absolute honesty, and seeking to love her in a way that seeks intimacy, not intensity. Again, thank you for your comment. I appreciate your candor. True healing, if possible, within our relationship begins with me, not with her, in my ability to love her unselfishly and completely, asking nothing in return.


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## 71Climber

Becareful2, thank you for your time to comment. Please don't assume you know the entire story by what I have posted. You call me a "prick", and then you quote Scripture to me. I find that very interesting. I understand the marriage covenant, and yes, I have broken it multiple times. I don't deny that and never have. And do not think that I have not had an absolutely full disclosure to my wife, and my children as well. My reason for posting is for someone to offer constructive perspective rather than an insulting diatribe. There are ways to get your point across without resorting to an all-out tirade.


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## browser

I read an article recently that says only 1/100 obese people ever get back to normal weight.

You refuse to accept her as she is, with that extra 45 lbs. I'm not judging you, in fact I get where you're coming from and if that was the only factor I agree it would be an issue for me too. 

Anyway, she's probably not going to lose the weight, therefore there's really nothing else to talk about in terms of trying to fix things. All that other stuff, you do to improve yourself as a person, although if it was me I wouldn't rely too much on some invisible guy in the sky to save me.


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## 71Climber

EleGirl, thank you for your comment. I have sort of responded in the thread, in a couple of responses. I have needed this discussion, as it is helping me to see things outside of myself, which was my hope. Sometimes it's truly difficult to have such perspective when there has been the passage of so much time, and with so much messiness. It's really necessary to put the boots on and wade through it. I am thankful I have a wife who is willing to walk through it with me. Alongside us both we have good men and women, we are not alone. I for one, believe in the power of God to heal even things such as this. Many things that have happened in both of our lives, in our childhoods, outside of our marriage have contributed to the challenges of overcoming addiction, healing, and moving forward. But our marriage is worth fighting for, and any perspective I can gain I greatly appreciate.


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## katiecrna

My heart aches for your wife when I read this post. There is just so much broken here. Your expectation for your wife to get healthy in 6months is selfish and asking too much. There should be no timeframe, especially since you spent your 20 YEAR marriage wrecking her self esteem.


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## katiecrna

Define was sober means. When was the last time you watched porn? How often do you masterbate? 
What are you doing to better yourself? IC? Church?


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## EleGirl

71Climber said:


> EleGirl, thank you for your comment. I have sort of responded in the thread, in a couple of responses. I have needed this discussion, as it is helping me to see things outside of myself, which was my hope. Sometimes it's truly difficult to have such perspective when there has been the passage of so much time, and with so much messiness. It's really necessary to put the boots on and wade through it. I am thankful I have a wife who is willing to walk through it with me. Alongside us both we have good men and women, we are not alone. I for one, believe in the power of God to heal even things such as this. Many things that have happened in both of our lives, in our childhoods, outside of our marriage have contributed to the challenges of overcoming addiction, healing, and moving forward. But our marriage is worth fighting for, and any perspective I can gain I greatly appreciate.


I’ve been through something similar to what your wife has experienced. I can tell you that the on-line affair, the emotional affairs (EA), can be as devastating as physical affairs (PA). The same with porn addictions.

These things chipped away at my self-esteem. The only way to survive it emotionally was to put up those walls. And yes, gaining weight was part of it. In the end I had to divorce him to save my self-respect. 

He always said he right things about changing, fixing himself, loving me, etc etc. But his commitment to it was not there.

Your wife says that she wants to work on your marriage. You are so lucky that she is still willing to even try. This might be as good as it gets. She might never be able to let you any closer than she does now. You are not a safe (emotionally) to be in a relationship with.

It will take years for her to let those walls down and trust you. Each time you slip up, her ability to trust you goes back to square one. 

What are you doing to protect yourself, your wife and your marriage so that you don’t mess up again?


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## jld

71Climber said:


> Faithful Wife, thank you for your honest appraisal. That's why I posted. Yes, there is much messiness that I have created these past many years. I haven't ever been with another woman physically, and yet the time with pornography, and in the chat room are wounds which I am responsible for creating. The points you make are all valid, and tremendously valuable for me to see someone else make, someone who is not involved in our situation. I need to be able to see things from her perspective, and yet somehow in an objective way, without the emotion. My wife is an amazing woman, she truly is, and I do love her. We have both undergone a tremendous amount of counseling, we relate well, and I still believe we can enjoy a marriage unlike we have experienced in the past. It is a process handled carefully and patiently, and requires commitment on both of our parts. I hope that we can establish a new covenant between us, a testimony to God's faithfulness to us, not our faithfulness to Him. I have broken that trust, but am working on getting it back. Along the way, I need to be reminded of the impact of my actions, and the amends that must be made. I am fortunate in that my wife wants everything to work out between us. The years of porn and its associated results prevent true intimacy. Anyone who believes that pornography is "healthy" is very naive. It is a destroyer of intimacy. We are starting over from scratch, I am optimistic because I am seeking to discover and live in my true self, with integrity and absolute honesty, and seeking to love her in a way that seeks intimacy, not intensity. Again, thank you for your comment. I appreciate your candor. True healing, if possible, within our relationship begins with me, not with her, in my ability to love her unselfishly and completely, asking nothing in return.


This sounds good, but I do not think it is realistic that you would ask nothing in return. We all ask things from our partner.

It sounds like both you and your wife need to be as honest as possible, first with yourselves, and then with each other. 

And if you cannot meet each other's needs, I think it would be healthiest if you parted ways.


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## becareful2

71Climber said:


> Becareful2, thank you for your time to comment. Please don't assume you know the entire story by what I have posted. You call me a "prick", and then you quote Scripture to me. I find that very interesting. I understand the marriage covenant, and yes, I have broken it multiple times. I don't deny that and never have. And do not think that I have not had an absolutely full disclosure to my wife, and my children as well. My reason for posting is for someone to offer constructive perspective rather than an insulting diatribe. There are ways to get your point across without resorting to an all-out tirade.


You dragged God into this first but God had nothing to do with your betrayal of your wife and kids. I find it very interesting that a serial adulterer is now hiding behind God to make himself look good and his wife the "weaker" partner in need of help. Next, you're going to tell me you're a church-going family man or a deacon. 

It's one thing to disclose; it's entirely something else to do it on bended knees. You asked for constructive criticism, well, there it is. Let's see if you have the humility to do what it takes to repair the damage you've caused or just do the bare minimum and declare that you've tried, and walk away.


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## 71Climber

Katiecrna, thank you for your input. And thank you for sharing a little of your own experience. 

Our 6-month defined separation comes at the end of what will be a consecutive physical separation of 2 years at that point, and this is our 3rd separation over the past 4.5 years. The separations have in part been entirely my fault, as a result of my own inability to establish any solid, consistent recovery from sexual addiction. We haven't been physically intimate in over two years, understandably.

Thank you for your empathy for my wife, it is where it needs to be directed. I take full responsibility for all of this. We both decided to draw a line in the sand, take a period of time wherein we remain physically separated, but as a test to see where we would be at the end of 6 months--if I am able to look myself in the mirror at the end of that time and say, with absolute honesty, that I have been 100% sober during that time. How will we be able to relate to one another at the end of that time, that is the question? Do we wish to continue working on our marriage, or do we wish to move on?

I have not been able to trust myself, and trust my emotions when I have been unable to establish clear, unabashed sobriety, and so this is a time for me to be absolutely serious about getting better. To me, this is what sobriety and health means: being a one-woman man; no communication whatsoever with any other woman(text,online, email, chat), no pornography, no browsing web sites which used to be a struggle which could lead to communication/porn-Craigslist, Backpages; it also means doing the work to remain healthy: having internet accountability-where other trusted me know exactly which websites I have been to; journaling, regular counseling, staying in community, being completely honest. Honestly, it is being serious about my sanctification in this area of my life, and above reproach. It means being willing to answer any questions, and being willing to take a lie detector test at any time if it help to establish trust.


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## 71Climber

JLD, there is some truth in what you say. Ultimately, we must meet one another's needs. I have just spent our entire marriage making sure that what I thought was my greatest need-sex, was met. So, I stole intimacy from our marriage and deprived my wife of that. It is time for me to look inwardly and focus on the essence of my wife, and admittedly, living without sex for two years, I have struggled with dwelling on whether or not I am going to be able to be attracted to my wife. It is a vicious cycle. I hope and pray, that if health truly descends into the midst of our marriage, that we both move towards each other in such a way that we both are able to experience real intimacy. I hope we can both speak to one another's needs. If, after months of real recovery, and alongside that I place my wife's needs above my own, make her life as easy as I am able, am honest, above reproach, listening to her, kind and compassionate to her, thoughtful, anticipating her needs and meeting them, all the while providing for my family, and loving and pursuing my children, if, after months of that, if there is no effect, then I will know it is time to move on, that there is too much garbage to take out. I hope that as I change, that I can see my wife move towards me physically-not to take off her clothes, but to give me an indication that she wants me to be with her, that she wants me to want her. That's all I need. I hope it's not too late.


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## notmyrealname4

Can you install blockers on your PC/tablet?

Can you only use the computer in an area where someone in your family could easily walk in on you?

Could you get rid of the smartphone; and get a simple cellphone with very limited/or no internet access?


I mean, what are you actually doing, practically to stop looking at pornography.

I mean, at one point, years ago; my husband used the JCPenney catalog (women's lingerie sections). Something, anything, but me.


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## 71Climber

becareful2 said:


> You dragged God into this first but God had nothing to do with your betrayal of your wife and kids. I find it very interesting that a serial adulterer is now hiding behind God to make himself look good and his wife the "weaker" partner in need of help. Next, you're going to tell me you're a church-going family man or a deacon.
> 
> It's one thing to disclose; it's entirely something else to do it on bended knees. You asked for constructive criticism, well, there it is. Let's see if you have the humility to do what it takes to repair the damage you've caused or just do the bare minimum and declare that you've tried, and walk away.


becareful2, I am a Christian. I didn't "drag God into this". I am imperfect and broken. I am a struggler. I need His Grace and forgiveness, same as everyone. I acknowledge my mistakes, which have been grievous, as I have sinned against my wife and my family. Nothing can change that. I have been direct and taken responsibility for that to my wife and entire family. But I am also a beloved son of the King, despite my failures. There have been consequences which I am enduring as it pertains to my family and the brokenness there, due to my own mistakes, and daily I regret this path that I have been on. When I posted, I did so to help shed light in such a way that it aids in perspective for healing and growth. I need that. I have hope that the Lord is able to heal even this, but it will come only if I am able to honor Him every moment of every day within my marriage, something that I haven't done to this point. The covenant that was established before God between my wife and I- I smashed it. I have taken responsibility for that. The work has already begun to go down a different pathway, and to chart a different course in my own life, and, if it be His will, divorce one another and then remarry each other, establishing a new covenant between us. These posts help me to increasingly see others' perspectives, and it reveals areas where my thinking may not be where it needs to be. With an addictive mindset for so many years, the brain has to be awakened and shaken out its stupor, so I can see how my thinking is not healthy and normal. It's a process for sure. 

And no, I'm not in a leadership position in church. In fact, over the past couple of years, I have not attended much at all, as it has been difficult with our current separation, very awkward. It's something I miss, and am looking forward to beginning again very soon. But my faith is not shaken, and I do trust in Him. What you say at the end of your post is a challenge which I embrace, and have already begun to do just that.


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## Cooper

People never heal under a time frame, it happens when it happens. OP you have been sick for twenty years, now because you've had a come to Jesus moment you expect your wife to follow instantly? And yes, six months is instantly in the scope of a life time. Talk about arrogant expectations! You are NOT past your sins, nor are you that easily absolved of your sins. You may feel God has forgiven you but God didn't have to deal with your crap day after day, year after year, but your wife did. You have caused severe damage to your wife as a person and her life in general, she is metaphorically beaten down, she has no self worth, she has low expectations of herself and of you. 

God demands total submission, you are not God OP, you have no right to demand anything. You cannot force your wife to forgive, forget and heal, or should I say change herself into what you want, and God can't do that for her either. She has evolved into who and what she is, only from within can she evolve into something different. 

Honestly OP it sounds like you have traded one obsession for another. Fix yourself, prove yourself, pray that over time the people around you recognize that and can forgive you, but realize twenty years of deceit may take forty years to forgive.


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## 71Climber

Cooper, I don't think you've read my responses to others who have posted in this entire thread. I KNOW I am not God. Give me a break. Don't make assertions about things which you know NOTHING about. I have not "given my wife an ultimatum", that's ridiculous. I take full responsibility for the damage I have caused. Don't think for a moment that I don't understand the amends that need to be made to my wife, to my family. I do understand the wounding that I have caused, and I pray that in time even those wounds are able to heal. I have to be a different man, which is a journey, but I am on it.

Despite those changes, I realize it may not be enough to repair the damage I have caused. My wife is in a very good place due to the tremendous amount of counseling that she has had, not only due to our marital problems, but also to overturn stones of things that occurred in her childhood and early adulthood. She has gone through much to get to the other side. As such, she has a perspective in which, after it all, she desires healing and restoration within our marriage. My addiction goes back to my pre-teen years, and existed 10 years before we met. Such an addictive mindset was already in place. In a sense, it was a silent intruder into our bedroom. Thusly, we've never been able to experience "normal" intimacy. Every day, I am beginning to see more and more how to see her through different eyes, and love her differently. As you say, there's no timetable. What we see before us is a landscape of ruin, which I caused, but we also believe that God is able to do what He said in Joel, "I will restore to you the years that the swarming locust has eaten, the hopper, the destroyer, and the cutter, my great army, which I sent among you. You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God." God is a God of restoration, and He is a God who pursues. My being able to love her well depends upon my absolute surrender unto Him, surrendering my sexuality to Him, and trusting Him that He will give us more than we could ever hope for. It depends upon allowing that change to occur within myself. It depends upon my being able to fully see and address the years of wounding that I have caused. And yet, even with all of that, months from now, inside the heart of my wife, it may be such that we realize that it may not be possible to move forward in health. 

As far as "trading one obsession for another", I have no idea what you're talking about. If I am to heal, if God is able to heal our relationship, it will be because the Lord has worked in our midst. My faith is not a "come to Jesus moment". Understandably, my addiction these years, and how I have related to my wife have not honored God. It is in no way in keeping with His plans for faithful marriage, obviously. But I do believe in forgiveness, and I do believe that where there is confession of sin, He is faithful to forgive. That forgiveness then should motivate me to live differently and in a way in which I am able to love my wife Biblically. I want to do that, and I want that for our marriage. It is something I have not done to this point, but it is not impossible. God is able to change even a sinner like me, and He is able to transform not only me, but our marriage. I am not so arrogant to for one second obligate my wife to forgive my transgressions, or agree to remain married to me. I would understand if she chooses, later, to have us go our own ways and be friends. She has every right to do so, and I would not blame her. She has dealt with much. But when I think of marriage itself, I think that it is right for me to do whatever it takes to give it a chance, as far as it pertains to me. For me, if I perceive with absolute certainty that the heart of my wife is tender, and that she, in a healthy place, wants us to have a different and healthy marriage, which IS the case, then rather than remain in the trance of my own addiction, I must draw the line and choose to live differently. That is what I'm doing. Only He knows what the outcome will be.


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## jld

71, just on a very practical note, have you and your wife sat down and made lists of what you need from each other? That way each of you could be clear on how to satisfy the other. 

If you need some help with that, Elegirl has some book suggestions in her signature.


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## 71Climber

JLD, we have done so, and my clear view of things at this point is that my wife's greatest need is to feel truly loved by me, to feel that I will be there, no matter what, for the remainder of our lives. It is difficult for her to have any belief that I am someone who will be 'that guy', when all I have done is focus on my own needs being met throughout our marriage.

I really see this as a time for me to demonstrate a different kind of love to her, one rooted in sobriety and true change. As far as my own needs are concerned, I want to experience healthy intimacy with her, which definitely contains passion and attraction. I think the only way to that is to move towards her unselfishly, and love her well, that she may hopefully respond to it. My objective right now is to love her by having integrity, maintaining absolute sobriety, and growing in my understanding of the injuries I have caused and their impact, relating to her non sexually, providing for her needs as best as I am able, listening to her, being available to her, being thoughtful, helping her with our children, pursuing them, just living in such a way that she may begin to trust me again, and be able to begin to be vulnerable with me.


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## jld

71Climber said:


> JLD, we have done so, and my clear view of things at this point is that my wife's greatest need is to feel truly loved by me, to feel that I will be there, no matter what, for the remainder of our lives. It is difficult for her to have any belief that I am someone who will be 'that guy', when all I have done is focus on my own needs being met throughout our marriage.
> 
> I really see this as a time for me to demonstrate a different kind of love to her, one rooted in sobriety and true change. As far as my own needs are concerned, I want to experience healthy intimacy with her, which definitely contains passion and attraction. I think the only way to that is to move towards her unselfishly, and love her well, that she may hopefully respond to it. My objective right now is to love her by having integrity, maintaining absolute sobriety, and growing in my understanding of the injuries I have caused and their impact, relating to her non sexually, providing for her needs as best as I am able, listening to her, being available to her, being thoughtful, helping her with our children, pursuing them, just living in such a way that she may begin to trust me again, and be able to begin to be vulnerable with me.


That is beautiful, 71.


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## becareful2

What exactly have you done in the last seven days to show her that you love her, and that you are changing? Words are dirt cheap. Anybody can talk but actions are way better.


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## Spicy

Ultimately, this is between you, your wife, and God.
If all 3 of you want this to work, I believe it can. 

If your wife can forgive you for porn addiction and EA's, she is an amazing woman, and you should spend the rest of your life thanking her for being so wonderful and doing all in your power to never hurt her in that reguard again.

Yep, you have done a ton of damage. Guess how we know that...because you told us. If you were so cold and heartless, would you really be here, laying your soul bare to us strangers for suggestions? I think not. You know how much you have messed up, you know you have a serious addiction, and you want to successfully stop and hope to save your marriage also. These are positive things. These are efforts that you and she (by wanting to forgive) are providing something good for God to bless. 

How this will all turn out is still to be determined. Continue to work hard to preserve your family, rebuild your marriage and strengthen your faith. In the end, if divorcing is the decision, at least you will be able to say how hard you tried, and hopefully learn and take those life lessons to heart and not hurt your next spouse like this. I've never dealt with addiction personally, but have watched it, and can see how hard of a struggle it is, and can only imagine what it is like to try to overcome something that has that big of a hold on you.

Consider not staying away from your place of worship anymore. Yes, I know it is uncomfortable and embarrassing. That will fade very quickly as you recommit yourself to attending worship. Plus, if you can speak to any of the leaders there, confide in them, it will give you another layer of accountability, which may really help too in avoiding relapse. Also, wouldn't it be loving if they could check on your progress occasionally, and share upbuilding verses with you? I know you have faith, but why not open yourself to as much access to help from God as you can get? That often comes from others within the congregation. Plus, I think it may also help you to realize you are not the only man of faith struggling with this!

I know at our services, pornography must be warned against at least once a month now. This is because it is an epidemic problem. Where you used to have to go search to find it (as you did as a kid) now you can summon anything and everything in a matter of seconds for free, right in the palm of your hand. What a strong tool this has proved to be to derail many faithful ones, and how many marriages and families have been devastated by it? The family unit is under attack, and lack of proper morals is at the core of most of that devastation. 

When I read your opening post, I too was rubbed the wrong way by a few of the things that you said, but I also could hear that your wife isn't the only one in this relationship crying out for help. I hope you will stay with us over the next six months, and let those of us who want to, help support you in your crusade to save your marriage. I for one, hope you find success.


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## 71Climber

Spicy, thank you. Very kind words, and mature insight into several aspects. I appreciate the advice. I will definitely continue to visit and keep you posted. Thanks for taking the time to respond and give your input.


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## arbitrator

*First off, it wasn't God who led you to your addiction, it was His nemesis, Satan!

Having said that, that in no way implies that the Heavenly Father won't intervene in helping to cure your problem!

But first, you must humbly acknowledge that addiction of yours, and contritely ask God to forgive you of that and any other of your transgressions, and then willingly do whatever it takes to effect change in your life ~ and at the same time, to let your W, family, children, and community see the change in you!

If your W, perchance, cannot cope in protecting herself with her self-imposed wall of weight and social aversion, then perhaps it is time to move on!

While you may have done yourself bad in this diversion, by changing you have in effect became a new creature in Christ, and have placed your former sordid addiction of yours squarely at His feet! That is exactly where He wants them placed!

Get to your or a church of your choosing, immediately get into Christian based counseling and always know that God loves you, no matter what, and places your sin as far away from you as He possibly can!

Just trust and accept Him in His promise!*


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## jorgegene

arbitrator said:


> *First off, it wasn't God who led you to your addiction, it was His nemesis, Satan!
> 
> Having said that, that in no way implies that the Heavenly Father won't intervene in helping to cure your problem!
> 
> But first, you must humbly acknowledge that addiction of yours, and contritely ask God to forgive you of that and any other of your transgressions, and then willingly do whatever it takes to effect change in your life ~ and at the same time, to let your W, family, children, and community see the change in you!
> 
> If your W, perchance, cannot cope in protecting herself with her self-imposed wall of weight and social aversion, then perhaps it is time to move on!
> 
> While you may have done yourself bad in this diversion, by changing you have in effect became a new creature in Christ, and have placed your former sordid addiction of yours squarely at His feet! That is exactly where He wants them placed!
> 
> Get to your or a church of your choosing, immediately get into Christian based counseling and always know that God loves you, no matter what, and places your sin as far away from you as He possibly can!
> 
> Just trust and accept Him in His promise!*


absolutely yes. you need accountability. join a men's group, or sexual addiction group that is christian based. do not try to go it alone. 
i think you are on the right path with humility and brokeness. but, you have to keep it going and not falter, especially when things get tough.
that and prayer, prayer, prayer.


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## She'sStillGotIt

> If she took control of her diet and began to exercise consistently, doing it first for herself, but wanting me to notice, she would have me.


LOL. You see yourself as quite the prize, I see.



> I love her, but I want to WANT her as well, and in a healthy way, not the way we have related in the past. Am I being selfish? Is that too much to ask? I am very fit, and so I do not ask as one who isn't also working hard to stay that way.


And that's the story you're using hoping to get her to drop the weight? That you would _need_ to find her attractive - purely for her _HEALTH_, of course - so god can fix your marriage?

It REALLY sounds more like since you can't spend your time looking at nude 22 year olds with plastic parts and 24" waists anymore, your wife is now going to be the *only* visual stimuli for you - so you need her to step up to the plate and make it worth your while.

Got it.



> If I am to heal, if God is able to heal our relationship, it will be because the Lord has worked in our midst.


I can't help but notice the incredible amount of hypocrisy in this thread. One minute you're talking all about divine intervention leading you to purity in your marriage, and yet, you've basically said if your wife drops the extra weight, you'd be SO there. You know, because you're fit and trim and _such_ a prize. :grin2:

Good luck to you. But after a steady diet of a sh*t sandwiches for 16 years running, don't be surprised if your wife is less than enthusiastic about your new found spirituality. Pfffft.


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## 71Climber

You're an angry person, indeed, full of venom, I actually think you're profile name is a misnomer


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## 269370

Is this thread for real? Most guys watch porn, it's nothing new or particularly unusual and it's much more harmless than the alternatives, during times when sex is not possible with your wife. Why do you call it an addiction?

Chatrooms: I would say is a bit more questionable but still in similar category. If it's anonymous, you were most likely chatting with a dude anyway and the pictures of 'himself' were probably from the internet.

My wife knows I watch porn now and again when we can't do it and she is fine with it (although she would prefer me not to look at it and if I knew it bothered her that much, I would easily give it up). She is MUCH more arousing to me than any of the porn I have seen. Also porn gets incredibly boring and repetitive after a while! You can't smell or taste anything which is half the fun!

"...driven by the fantasy-type scenarios which porn propagates" 

Can you elaborate? There are so many different kinds of porn and there's nothing wrong with being adventurous in the bedroom. The stuff my wife sometimes comes up with is sometimes much more elaborate than anything I have seen in porn...
If it involves donkeys or midgets, perhaps I would feel sorry (for the donkey).

"1. Surrender my sexuality to God, and ask Him to change me, to give me eyes for my wife, after all we have been through, to help my struggle..."

Are you serious? Don't ask god to do all the hard work for you.
The first thing I would address is why you don't find your wife sexually attractive in the first place. Don't blame porn, this is too easy.
A shot in the dark here but are you definitely attracted to women?


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## 71Climber

Hey, Inmyprime, what kind of a question is that? Where does that come from? Am I attracted to women? Seriously? I was actually reading your post with interest until the last statement, which was ridiculous. What you and your own wife do, what you do, how often you look at porn, whether or not she minds, that's fine for you guys. It has affected my marriage tremendously, and has not been welcomed as an alternative when sex is not an option. I don't expect everyone to understand pornography use as an addiction, and as such, it may be impossible for you to understand. Please don't make light of the situation by making accusations of homosexual feelings. That's not even worth the chat thread.


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## jld

71Climber said:


> Hey, Inmyprime, what kind of a question is that? Where does that come from? Am I attracted to women? Seriously? I was actually reading your post with interest until the last statement, which was ridiculous. What you and your own wife do, what you do, how often you look at porn, whether or not she minds, that's fine for you guys. It has affected my marriage tremendously, and has not been welcomed as an alternative when sex is not an option. I don't expect everyone to understand pornography use as an addiction, and as such, it may be impossible for you to understand. Please don't make light of the situation by making accusations of homosexual feelings. That's not even worth the chat thread.


71, you are not obligated to respond to every post. You are not obligated to respond to any, frankly.

Take what is helpful from the forum and feel free to leave the rest.


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## 269370

My apologies, I didn't mean to offend you with the question (it really shouldn't be offensive, especially if it is not applicable to you...).
Let me try differently and forget my question about your sexual orientation if it offends you: has there ever been a time when you WERE attracted to your wife? 
You say that porn has affected your marriage. But how do you KNOW it was porn? You didn't say in your post that you marriage was absolutely fine and that you had a buoyant sexual life until you started looking at porn...
Rather, you said (IIUIC) that you started looking at porn when you were 11 and at some point you got married and wanted to re-enact some of the things you saw? Have you actually harmed your wife in any way? It reads as though it is your marriage that got in the way of your relationship with porn rather than the other way around.
I don't mean to mock your problems but the first step before you can fix a problem, it's important to identify it.
Different people have different kinds of sexual preferences when it comes to it. In large part, we are born with them and have to accept ourselves for who we are and learn to live with them. And as long as it doesn't harm another human being, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

I am not speaking of myself and my wife: but if I told you that ALL men watched porn (majority watch it regularly) and that men who do not watch porn regularly are more likely to cheat, would this change your outlook on it? (There are studies you can google).

*I cannot for the life of me understand why almost everyone is biting your head off for watching porn. Having an EA is another thing but chatrooms are really NOT an affair, especially not an emotional one....


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## 71Climber

Inmyprime, no worries, man, I appreciate the response. You are 100% correct in that the overwhelming majority of men, and some women look at porn in differing degrees, for sure, especially with its anonymity, availability, easy access, etc. It is pervasive in our culture and a bigger industry than Apple. I think men, women, and couples are all over the place with it. I can only speak to my own experience. Having been exposed to it, and it having been a private and regular battle, especially at a young age, as my sexuality was forming, definitely was influential in forming arousal templates in my brain, etc. Rather than forming a healthy sexual development based on intimacy, the objectification of women's bodies readily accessible in porn created something entirely different. As such, I brought this into my marriage. My wife and I have always been friends, and we get along very well, but secretly within our marriage, I allowed my porn use to cause me to control our sexual intimacy. It became more about fulfilling my fantasies, rather than our uniting as one, and it being an expression of our love for one another. Rather than seeing my wife as a person, she was a means to an end-my satisfaction. In my case, pornography was not enough. I discovered an internet chat room maybe 10 years ago, and that represented a new level of excitement. This was a different level altogether, a different level of infidelity. It's a very very long story, and to encapsulate it would take me an hour to write it. My arousal template, created when I was so young, is something that I am working through. I believe attraction is very important, but I have been unreasonable in this regard, based on an unrealistic expectation, which I trace back to porn. Now, I"m just trying to discover what normal intimacy looks like, and how to love my wife unselfishly, and love her for who she is, and see her essence, rather than just her body. It's a process for sure.


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## 269370

"Now, I"m just trying to discover what normal intimacy looks like"

This is the thing. I am not sure there is such a thing as "normal intimacy". "Normal" is whatever two adult parties consent to and whatever turns them on!
I am not so sure it is fair to hold porn responsible for forming our sexual preferences and behaviour. I think it can trigger and excite something that was potentially already there. But it would be unreasonable to hold it accountable for ALL our sexual preferences. This is why I feel blaming a sexually dysfunctional marriage on porn may be masking the real issue.

Without knowing more specifically what it is that porn scenarios provide that can't be had with your wife, it's difficult to give advice (as I wrote, there is literally all kinds of porn out there, sensual and romantic type as well..)

"Rather than seeing my wife as a person, she was a means to an end-my satisfaction"

But if, at the end, she was also satisfied, what is wrong with both people ending up being a "means to an end" during sex? Or if she wasn't satisfied, why is it not possible to satisfy her afterwards? (or beforehand?). What's porn got to do with it?


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## 269370

"The study found that *men watched pornography that matched their own image of sexuality*, and quickly discarded material they found offensive or distasteful.

Prof Lajeunesse said pornography did not have a negative effect on men's sexuality.
“Not one subject had a pathological sexuality,” he said. “In fact, all of their sexual practices were quite conventional.

“Pornography hasn't changed their perception of women or their relationship, which they all want to be as harmonious and fulfilling as possible,” he added."

All men watch porn, scientists find - Telegraph

I would leave the possibility open that it is us, who select what type of porn we watch and what turns us on in general, rather than the other way around. It is not black and white of course and I am sure there are external factors at play that may contribute too, especially when young, but it wouldn't be the majority, IMO!


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## 71Climber

Inmyprime, we shall agree to disagree on this subject. To each his own. We have lived different lives. Pornography has, in no way, been a positive in any aspect of my marital relationship. It has not helped to enhance intimacy. I realize that what men and women enjoy with each other, what they find arousing sexually, what satisfies them together and as individuals is really between them. If pornography is part of that equation, then it is.

Have all men that have access to the internet viewed pornography? I would say the absolute overwhelming majority. Do all men view porn regularly currently? I would say no. Do most men, on occasion, go to pornographic websites? I would say yes. Are there a good number of men who actually have an addiction? I would say that the number would be shocking. Gone are the days of magazines and going to video stores. Now, it is 1 million % easier, and we're visual creatures, so it's an easy temptation. 

Im my opinion, there should be no defense of porn. It may be titillating, arousing, and exciting, as it generates an incredible chemical release in the brain, but it always takes away, rather than adding to. It is a stealer of intimacy. It is insidious in that it reduces the interaction to just that-an act, where the end goal is physical pleasure. The end goal is orgasm. It is counterfeit, and it cannot be played with. Porn is an entity which causes the viewer to unwittingly compare his spouse to the images that he or she has seen, and they have a difficult time measuring up to implants, a perfect ass, thin waist, and seeming delight in every form of degradation in which they participate. These women's lives are traumatized, many of them are themselves victims of sexual abuse, dysfunctional families, and they have wounds which they carry, and then the porn industry takes advantage of that for profit. There are countless stories where women talk of getting out of the industry, and how it has affected them emotionally, psychologically, and how they find it difficult to enjoy real intimacy. They also carry physical wounds from the acts of porn, ranging from difficulty from fecal incontinence to diseases like HIV, syphilis, chlamydia, gonorrhea, HPV, herpes, etc. 

I've been there, thinking porn was harmless...it's not.


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## 269370

I respect your view of course, especially your attained attitude towards porn even though it is a little one-sided. The other side of the coin of course is that individuals who end up in the porn industry *made a career choice* and one hopes that the law is there to protect the ones who ended up in the porn industry against their will. They reason why many choose this route is because it is lucrative, not because they have no choice! 

Anyway, you never answered my question regarding what it is that porn can provide you with that a real life person can't? And why you decided to blame porn on not finding your wife attractive? If, as you say, most men watch porn (and the studies, including the one I linked to, actually say that ALL men watch porn), shouldn't that mean that most men would feel like you about their wives and no one would have a partner by now? Clearly this isn't the case.

Also regarding the false body image promotion: I agree it is a problem and make many women feel insecure however it is not so much the porn industry that promotes that unrealistic image but the advertisement industry. In every magazine you will find photoshopped women who look nothing like a real life person. 
I think you caught yourself some red herrings. I would go back to the basics and examine the root: the real reason for the absence of attraction towards your wife.

My wife lets me take naughty pics of her now and again and I take those over any porn, any day, when i am away from home (and I watched MANY hours of porn throughout my life. It's nothing like real life).
Anyway, i hope you work it out and wish you all the best.


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