# Awareness and Phrasing



## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

It is amazing to me how just a little awareness and a turn of phrase can make so much difference.

Just a brief background. Our marriage is technically sexless and has been for at least the last half of our 20 years together. She has a low sex drive and I have a fairly high libido. We've had a number of problems in our relationship, including a lack of physical intimacy. I have within the last month decided to make a last ditch effort to save our marriage ... you might call it a plan because it does have goals and a timetable but unlike some other posters, I am not calling it "The Plan" and there is nothing scientific about it ... I'm simply trying to give it everything I have. Among other things, I am literally recording daily our encounters and making notes. I am tracking how frequently I show affection ... hugs, kisses, holding hands. Sounds silly but our relationship had gotten to the point that affection was completely gone ... and we used to be extremely affectionate, the most affectionate couple I knew. So I am initiating the affection but I'm not initiating sex. She has a low sex drive and she has since I met her (didn't realize it at the time). I will let her initiate when she is comfortable with that. In addition to our relationship, I am focusing on myself. Trying to remove some bad habits and implement some healthy habits ... nothing extreme, just some adjustments. I'm tracking those in the same way. I have finally reached a point where I'm willing to accept that our relationship might end ... but I'm not going out without a fight. 

Anyway, I had an observation yesterday about a conversation we had and I made notes.

We've had our first stretch of very warm days and discovered that our AC doesn't work. Yesterday, I came downstairs with the intention of kissing her (again, as silly as it sounds, I actually keep track of this because I am committed to reestablishing affection). She was sitting down at her desk and I leaned over to give her a good kiss ... we are actually pretty good at that. She was warm and affectionate in return and she put her arms around my waist. Then she said this:

"You know that if you want sex, you will need to fix the AC first."

Ok, on the one hand, she NEVER brings up sex so this was actually a good thing. On the other hand, I was immediately turned off. I was turned off for two reasons:

1) She was bargaining. I will allow you to have sex with me if you do this thing. She was in control.
2) I don't want to be "allowed" to have sex with her ... I would hope this is a shared experience and not one in which she simply opens her legs to let me do my thing.

If instead she had said:

"I want to have sex but I am too uncomfortable because the AC isn't working."

I wouldn't have objected. In fact, I would have been very motivated to get on that AC right away. 

Amazing what difference a little awareness of what you are communicating and a slight twist of phrasing can make.


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

guy, you are making progress and I can see how you would have been upset over what she said, but yes, it was a good thing. You are making progress with her and that was her way of telling you that things are getting better - but not quit where it needs to be for her to completely initiate. 

In addition to that, don't wait too long. If she doesn't initiate, you do it. I for one hate it when my husband always wants me to start it. I think to myself, "why can't he be a man and come onto me, why is he always waiting for me to make the first move?" Drives me nuts and turns me off.

So, what did you say back to her?


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

JustHer said:


> guy, you are making progress and I can see how you would have been upset over what she said, but yes, it was a good thing. You are making progress with her and that was her way of telling you that things are getting better - but not quit where it needs to be for her to completely initiate.
> 
> In addition to that, don't wait too long. If she doesn't initiate, you do it. I for one hate it when my husband always wants me to start it. I think to myself, "why can't he be a man and come onto me, why is he always waiting for me to make the first move?" Drives me nuts and turns me off.
> 
> So, what did you say back to her?


Actually I don't remember what I said back to her. I remember taking a step back. 

As far as initiating sex ... I'm not sure what to do here. I have been rejected for years. I have always been the one to initiate. I am making progress because for the first time that I can remember, she initiated early this month. The last time I initiated she said ... no, you know I'm not like you right? I am trying to respect the fact that she has a low sex drive and can't just turn it on. In some ways, I am still initiating ... I am initiating the affection and communication that may lead to sex but I am not going to pressure her into it or even allow myself to believe that the affection could lead to sex ... if it does, it does. I think it is important that she understands that the affection doesn't come with stipulations or expectations.

That's really a tough one. I would initiate every day if I thought I had a chance but that isn't how she operates. On the flip side, she knows that if she initiates I will have sex with her. We have talked about this aspect of our marriage over and over. She knows that the lack of intimacy is a dealbreaker for me but nothing more will be said about that. It was a discussion that unfortunately had to take place. She knows I am here, I want intimacy with her but beyond that I am not going to put any more pressure on her.

EDIT: Now I'm dumbfounded ... I don't remember exactly what I said ... I should have made note of it. I remember taking a step back. I think (??) I simply repeated what she said back to her. I have family in town right now and our house has a lot of commotion so it isn't a convenient place to talk at the moment.

EDIT #2: I wouldn't characterize it as being upset. I wasn't angry. I was turned off - I immediately disconnected and that reaction was visceral.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

Get a copy of 5 love languages, scribble some notes in the columns about you, then some that you might think apply to her. Leave that copy with its notes on a counter, see if she picks it up and read the cliff notes. You cant give her bigger hints than spelling it right out for her.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

More like attitude than phrasing. She knows exactly what she's saying. She clearly sees sex as something she can dole out as a reward for good behaviour. She feels totally in control of your sex life and supremely confident of her power over you.

Funny really, because I've read a lot of your posts about how you are not attracted to her because of her weight. Why is she so confident that you even want to have sex with her?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

"She was warm and affectionate in return and she put her arms around my waist. Then she said this:

"You know that if you want sex, you will need to fix the AC first."

I think you mistook what she was trying to get across to you.

She was showing you affection and I think her comments was more of a humorous way of her telling you that she's interested in having sex with you.

What you are doing is working. Be happy about that. 

What do you do now? Keep doing what you have been doing, it’s working.

And get that AC fixed. Then, with a sense of humor, let her know that you are ready to take her up on that offer for sex.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Lyris said:


> More like attitude than phrasing. She knows exactly what she's saying. She clearly sees sex as something she can dole out as a reward for good behaviour. She feels totally in control of your sex life and supremely confident of her power over you.
> 
> Funny really, because I've read a lot of your posts about how you are not attracted to her because of her weight. Why is she so confident that you even want to have sex with her?


Because that is exactly what I've told her.

EDIT: Please don't get the impression that I berate her over her weight. That is one out of many issues but it is the one that caused me to discover TAM because I had run out of ideas on the approach to take to address the issue. She never initiated before she became very heavy so I don't know why now would be different. I recognized that one of the reasons that I stopped initiating is that her weight had become an issue ... I don't look at her and feel that attraction anymore. However, we have discussed the lack of intimacy in our marriage and I have told her that it is something that I want with her. I will not reject her if she wants to have sex with me.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> She was warm and affectionate in return and she put her arms around my waist. Then she said this:
> 
> "You know that if you want sex, you will need to fix the AC first."


I agree with Lyris, this seemed manipulative to me.

She is using sex to get something she wants done: fix the AC (btw, this should be done/not-done base on your finances, don't dig yourself into a financial hole; there are worse things than not having AC).

She has set up a barrier to sex--a barrier that will take time to accomplish. This suits her purpose of avoiding sex.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Youre trying a new "system" to reconnect a relationship but she remains in the old patterns of behavior and communication.

You, unfortunately, missed an opportunity to establish new boundaries.

Go back and tell her, "I fixed the AC. Now when you've made me a wonderful dinner and cleaned up the house, I might want to hug you again." Then have a conversation about using sex as reward vs using affection as reward.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> "She was warm and affectionate in return and she put her arms around my waist. Then she said this:
> 
> "You know that if you want sex, you will need to fix the AC first."
> 
> ...


Hmmm ... well my first two thoughts on this are 

1) I'm not really upset ... just a little put off ... because I do recognize that she didn't think anything of how she said it ... she was serious but she very well could have thought she was conveying it in a humorous way. I am pretty certain, knowing her, that her top priority was getting the AC fixed. 

btw, she weighs 330lbs ... she does not tolerate heat very well.

2) I don't want to read too much into this little exchange but communication is a problem between us. If this was an isolated event then I would interpret as nothing more than humor but this attitude permeates a lot of her communication with me.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Youre trying a new "system" to reconnect a relationship but she remains in the old patterns of behavior and communication.
> 
> You, unfortunately, missed an opportunity to establish new boundaries.
> 
> Go back and tell her, "I fixed the AC. Now when you've made me a wonderful dinner and cleaned up the house, I might want to hug you again." Then have a conversation about using sex as reward vs using affection as reward.


Yep, I blew it.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Blue Firefly said:


> I agree with Lyris, this seemed manipulative to me.
> 
> She is using sex to get something she wants done: fix the AC (btw, this should be done/not-done base on your finances, don't dig yourself into a financial hole; there are worse things than not having AC).
> 
> *She has set up a barrier to sex--a barrier that will take time to accomplish. This suits her purpose of avoiding sex.*


She does do that a lot ... throw up barriers to sex.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Are you familiar with the terms "fitness test" and "sh$t test"?


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

alphaomega said:


> Are you familiar with the terms "fitness test" and "sh$t test"?


No ... I can make some assumptions about what they mean ... but what do you mean?


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Well, because you are already married, you would be experiencing shat tests. Similar to a fitness test. I would google them both.

But basically, your wife is testing your boundaries to see he far she can take her behavior. I also agree she is setting up barriers to sex also.

Basically, she will test you with a slight or negative wrapped up in a comment that doesn't sometimes seem like it, but it designed to test your boundaries. The trick is to block the test, but with humor to show you Recognize the test but aren't fooled by it or won't yield to such silliness.

For instance..."if you fix the A/C then you get sex.". 
You, laughing: well, if you mean you want to watch me build up a massive sweat in this heat because it makes you super horney then I'm intrigued."
Then slap her ass as you walk away.

You know what she was trying to do and you responded in such a way with humor that you know it was a stupid statement for her to make but are confident enough in yourself that your above such things.

Lots of examples around, and much more experienced people at diffusing these kinds of tests than I.


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## Want2babettrme (May 17, 2013)

Considering your history it's obvious why you are having questions about her real meaning with this statement. From here sounds like it could by any of the three possibilities other posters have cited:

Bargaining

Humor combined with some interest (nudge nudge hint hint say no more)

or a sh!t test. 

Consider other clues which could clarify the subtext. Tone of voice: playful, matter of fact, irritated? Body language: was she smiling, did she wink? Historical background: does she use bargaining in other circumstances? Has she requested you get the AC fixed repeatedly (does she nag or states that she has to nag to get you to address problems?) Does she sh!t test you from time to time? Does she tend to say things bluntly or bitingly without realizing how the message sounds?

In terms of the LD, lack of initiating, and failure to show affection, either she doesn't realize that sex, physical affection, and expression of desire for one's partner are important in a marriage. Or else she just doesn't care if she does recognize how important these things are to you and to the marriage. Have you told her what your needs are? Maybe something to address in some MC if you think you could get her to agree to MC.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

330 pounds?? Um...wow, that is SERIOUS. When I think about my ex, who was 6ft 5in, weighing 375lb when we got together, I have a really hard time picturing that much weight on a woman. I know this isnt what the discussion at hand is about, but at first I was thinking you were being a little shallow about the weight...but this isnt someone putting on 50-60 pounds....wow.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

3Xnocharm said:


> 330 pounds?? Um...wow, that is SERIOUS. When I think about my ex, who was 6ft 5in, weighing 375lb when we got together, I have a really hard time picturing that much weight on a woman. I know this isnt what the discussion at hand is about, but at first I was thinking you were being a little shallow about the weight...but this isnt someone putting on 50-60 pounds....wow.


No, I don't have a problem with 50-60 lbs ... I still found my wife attractive at 200lbs. She is really big. She carries it in such a way that we can't have sex normally ... eliminates some typical positions. Worse though is that it is causing health problems. I don't know that she will ever be motivated to change it.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

So...assuming your A/C has worked for the last 20 years and is only recently broken, what's her excuse for putting off sex for all these years when it was working?

Here's my take on it...and I'm assuming that you don't touch her only when you want sex (like my H does)...if I were you, I think I'd have been a bit put off that she assumed you were only showing affection to get sex. Like you said, you wouldn't turn her down, but you don't expect your displays of affection to always result in sex. Geez, most women (including me) would appreciate their husbands showing affection on occasion without groping her crotch, grabbing her breasts, and saying crude things like "I want to stick my hand down there and put my fingers in your holes and grab you like a six pack." Yeah...that's super sexy isn't it?  Anyway, again I say that your wife doesn't appreciate your efforts to connect with her...she puts up stumbling blocks instead.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Waking up to life said:


> So...assuming your A/C has worked for the last 20 years and is only recently broken, what's her excuse for putting off sex for all these years when it was working?
> 
> Here's my take on it...and I'm assuming that you don't touch her only when you want sex (like my H does)...if I were you, I think I'd have been a bit put off that she assumed you were only showing affection to get sex. Like you said, you wouldn't turn her down, but you don't expect your displays of affection to always result in sex. Geez, most women (including me) would appreciate their husbands showing affection on occasion without groping her crotch, grabbing her breasts, and saying crude things like "I want to stick my hand down there and put my fingers in your holes and grab you like a six pack." Yeah...that's super sexy isn't it?  Anyway, again I say that your wife doesn't appreciate your efforts to connect with her...she puts up stumbling blocks instead.


You are spot on about the AC ... it's just another convenient obstacle. If it wasn't the AC, it would be something else. 

"Put my fingers in your holes and grab you like a six pack?" OMG ... does he actually say things like that? That is really disrespectful. A little dirty talk can be fun and arousing ... but that is just wrong. That can't be the least bit arousing. :scratchhead:


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> You are spot on about the AC ... it's just another convenient obstacle. If it wasn't the AC, it would be something else.
> 
> "Put my fingers in your holes and grab you like a six pack?" OMG ... does he actually say things like that? That is really disrespectful. A little dirty talk can be fun and arousing ... but that is just wrong. That can't be the least bit arousing. :scratchhead:


It's SUCH a turn off. I actually love dirty talk, but I have to be aroused already and maybe partly into "the act" for it to sound sexy. Just a few minutes ago, he was sitting in his recliner whining about how his foot hurt (it's been a crisis in our house for the last week...he has stress fractures in his feet from being overweight). Anyway, I asked him if he'd like me to get him an ice pack from the freezer. Instead of saying "yes, thank you" he grinned and said "I'd like to put my foot up your..." and made a gesture with his foot. I ignored him and said something else, so he continued to move his foot upward and make sound effects. 

God...he's SO sexually immature. Not said in his defense in any way, but this is just how he always indicates he "wants" me. I know when he starts groping me, making obscene comments, gestures, etc, he wants sex. I guess I had become so accustomed to this behavior, sometimes I lose sight of how grossly dysfunctional our sexual relationship is.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

coffee4me said:


> :nono: even my X didn't do that. EWWWW


Yeah, ewwww is right. But beyond ewww, it's degrading and makes me feel like an object. A very dirty, worthless object. Our sexual relationship has never been based on mutual passion, respect, love, and connection. It's been about being silly, awkward, and immature. I do believe as I've said before that we've never matured sexually beyond when we were 17 and hiding from our parents to "do it". 

Well I'm 39 and in my sexual peak. I'm in great shape and I look young for my age. I cannot live the rest of my life in a sexually "ewwww" kind of relationship. I never really consciously realized how degrading and disrespectful his "sexual advances" were until I typed my previous post. Like I said, it's just been the "norm" for our marriage. Perhaps when I was younger, I didn't feel like I deserved to be treated any better? Well, now I know better. I've matured a lot in our 19 years...he has not. He's in for a very rude awakening very soon, unfortunately for him.

But I digress and have hijacked JSGW's thread...


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

coffee4me said:


> Sorry JSGW's one last tread jack post
> 
> Wotl, I know what you mean about never the sex never maturing beyond a certain point. I will say that I have discovered now that.....
> 
> I had no idea what I was missing


And a continuum of the hijack (JSGW won't mind :angel3...

I do believe that I have no idea what I'm missing. Well...maybe a hint of what I'm missing, from what I've read about some other TAM users...:awink:


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Waking up to life said:


> And a continuum of the hijack (JSGW won't mind :angel3...
> 
> I do believe that I have no idea what I'm missing. Well...maybe a hint of what I'm missing, from what I've read about some other TAM users...:awink:


Ha! JSGW doesn't mind at all 

Waking's husband seems to lack complete "awareness" of just how demeaning and disrespectful his advances are ... so it fits perfectly.

As I think I've mentioned before I'm very happy for you Waking that you are taking control of your life. The sexual aspect of your relationship is really just a symptom of bigger incompatibilities. I hope that you can quickly move on and find what you are looking for. Maybe I will at some point too.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Well, I fixed the AC ... tracked down a wire that wasn't making a clean connection ... let's see what happens now.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

Go to her and say, "Well? The AC is fixed. Remember what you said?" Just see what she says. I would wager that she'll say she was 'just kidding' about that and/or have some other excuse. Maybe I'm just cynical b/c my H is pushing my buttons today. He doesn't realize how close he's gotten to the fire...you know how you keep breathing on a fire to get it started? That's what he's doing...he's done it safely for years, never gotten burned. Well the flame is getting ready to come roaring up in his face very soon. 

JSGW - I will keep you and everyone posted on my re-entry into the world as my own person. I'm guessing that as soon as its over with, I'll wonder why I waited so long to do it. It sounds simplistic and maybe selfish to say "you only live once". But there is truth to it. I can't live with the thought of growing old and bitter in a cold, disconnected marriage where I will become nothing more than a caregiver for my husband who's health is abysmal for his age. Not to mention I have a LOT of sexual exploration and fulfillment to achieve...I will be very cautious about that. I don't just give that away, but when I do decide to share myself with someone else...heaven help that man . So anyway, as you are in a similar situation, don't wait around forever for things to magically change. In my case, months if therapy helped me to realize that nothing will change. I can either accept it or move on. I choose to move on and pursue happiness. 

Oh, you'll relate to this. We went to a cookout today and brought our own lawn chairs. When my H went to fold his up, he realized it had bent badly and was getting ready to break. He said "I need to look up where I can buy lawn chairs for fat people." I said under my breath "Or how about LOSE WEIGHT?? Did you ever think about that??" Of course I didn't say it loud enough for him to hear me. Ugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

coffee4me said:


> Her weight has to be her biggest barrier thou, don't you think. I imagine she just doesn't feel good about herself and definitly not sexy. I have a very hard time getting my brain to think about sex if I do not feel attractive. Desire also plays a big part for me, I don't see how anyone can desire me when I don't feel good about my appearance. Therefore, my drive plummets because I'm turned off by myself. If that makes sense.


Yes, I agree. That problem is why I came onto TAM in the first place. It is a significant barrier and I'm out of ideas on how to help her. It affects so many things, the least of which is our sex life.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Waking up to life said:


> Go to her and say, "Well? The AC is fixed. Remember what you said?" Just see what she says. I would wager that she'll say she was 'just kidding' about that and/or have some other excuse. Maybe I'm just cynical b/c my H is pushing my buttons today. He doesn't realize how close he's gotten to the fire...you know how you keep breathing on a fire to get it started? That's what he's doing...he's done it safely for years, never gotten burned. Well the flame is getting ready to come roaring up in his face very soon.
> 
> *JSGW - I will keep you and everyone posted on my re-entry into the world as my own person. I'm guessing that as soon as its over with, I'll wonder why I waited so long to do it. It sounds simplistic and maybe selfish to say "you only live once". But there is truth to it. I can't live with the thought of growing old and bitter in a cold, disconnected marriage where I will become nothing more than a caregiver for my husband who's health is abysmal for his age. Not to mention I have a LOT of sexual exploration and fulfillment to achieve...I will be very cautious about that. I don't just give that away, but when I do decide to share myself with someone else...heaven help that man . So anyway, as you are in a similar situation, don't wait around forever for things to magically change. In my case, months if therapy helped me to realize that nothing will change. I can either accept it or move on. I choose to move on and pursue happiness.
> *
> ...


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

I think you should feel good with everything you've done and are doing to save your marriage. Many people would've thrown in the towel long before now. You seem to be a very thoughtful and respectful guy. I know you also have a very soft spot in your heart for your daughters too, and you have their best interests at heart. 

You are likely grappling with the same thing I have: how can I reconcile doing what I need to do to get my needs met and to live a happy life with the fact that doing so will cause much hurt and heartache to others? That has been the reason I have fought the decision to divorce for so long. But in the end, my needs are NOT getting met, emotionally, sexually, recreationally, and otherwise. The only needs that are getting met in this marriage are physical: income, housing (although that's questionable considering he has insisted we stay in this trailer that's starting to fall apart), transportation, and some shared household chores. And I realize that I can meet my own physical needs just fine, without living with an emotionally unstable, self-centered man-child who has no interest in treating me lovingly or attempting to satisfy me sexually. That was a tough pill to swallow, but once I did and I started things in motion to move on, I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

After reviewing your other two threads, it's clear your wife has (for reasons unclear) checked out of the marriage.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/71835-needed-vent.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/69207-how-cope-loneliness.html

Instead of focusing on the symptoms (like the word games that are the subject of this thread) you need to focus the core problem and find out why your wife no longer wants to be an active participant in your marriage.

Instead of starting multiple threads, you should somehow combine all these into a single thread, and then see if you can get some help finding a solution to your core problem.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Blue Firefly said:


> After reviewing your other two threads, it's clear your wife has (for reasons unclear) checked out of the marriage.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/71835-needed-vent.html
> 
> ...


Thanks Blue. I have several theories as to why it appears my wife has checked out of our marriage. My goal, of course, is to get her to re-engage. 

Yeah, I see what you mean about the separate threads. Of course, the reason for the separate threads is that this is a process. When I first came here, I wrote quite a few posts related to her weight and how to address it but I didn't start a thread. Then it sort of evolved as I thought through things. 

This thread is a little different and it was really just an observation about how people communicate and being aware of how that is interpreted. She could have said the same thing, phrased a little differently and it would be interpreted differently. Why? Did she mean it as it sounded or was she being playful? Was she trying to tell me something positive but wasn't quite comfortable in being completely honest so she turned it into a joke? Would I have interpreted it differently if we hadn't been having problems in our relationship? ... our problems making me hypersensitive to something that otherwise would be innocuous. Is how she phrases things simply a habit?

When we went to MC, our counselor made a big deal about how we communicate and the message we are sending, even if unintentional. The counselor corrected both of us on several occasions and pointed out how a positive message could easily become a negative one. She corrected my wife a LOT ... and that surprised me. Interestingly the one thing the counselor was concerned about was that my wife says one thing but her actions say the opposite ... she said there was a noticeable disparity ... and the messages she's sending are mixed and confusing. I believe both of us could use some IC to work through these things.

Anyway, enough rambling ... thanks for the feedback.


EDIT: I was just thinking ... for the longest time there was no way I would have attended IC. I thought if you had to go to IC then there was something inherently wrong with you. Guess that comes from my parents whose attitude is that you just deal with it ... truth is both my parents would have been better off getting IC, especially my mom. MC was an eye opener for me and I got a lot out of it ... nothing wrong with having a third party help you work through these things.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

coffee4me said:


> How have you addressed her weight? Why did you stop MC if you are giving things one last shot?


Over the years I have tried to address her weight through discussions about diet, exercise, health.

- Eliminate all medical reasons. Think she's had every test known to man.
- Bring healthy food into the house; design meal plans. I do most of the grocery shopping.
- Encourage her to take up activities that require some physical exercise. Taking walks, go to the park, hiking, etc. Something we can do together or with the girls.
- Encourage her to do active things on her own. Aerobics, swimming come to mind. Things she has expressed interest in.
- Discussed the health ramifications of her weight.
- Paid for gym memberships, equipment when she shows an interest.
- Have given her reading material for making healthy changes to the diet. Keep some of these things on the fridge.

Other things as well ... I don't know how much more I can do. Her family has participated too. They are very concerned.

One thing I had never done is address it in terms of our sex life. Well, we recently had that conversation. It wasn't the focus of the conversation but certainly in her mind, it was significant. I tried to open the discussion about our challenges with intimacy. I did bring up her weight from a couple of angles but one of them was that I found it unattractive. I tried to focus on the weight itself as being unattractive and not her. I knew this was a dangerous and potentially harmful thing to bring up and I know she found it difficult to hear but I felt at this point it had to be said ... everything had to be aired out. I think she took it as confirmation of what she already knew and it did not come as a complete surprise. I emphasized that this is something that can be worked on and I am here to support her in every way possible. There is no easy way to talk about this and I have stressed over this for years.

As far as MC goes, we separated in the beginning of February, 2011. In March 2011, we started marriage counseling. It went on for approximately 4 months. I stopped marriage counseling for several reasons:

1) While I believe it shed a lot of light on our issues, it seemed to be helping us individually without it translating into an improved relationship.
2) I felt like both of us were giving up on the relationship. I felt nearly certain at that time that divorce was inevitable.
3) The expense of it. I was maintaining two households ... an expensive house AND an apartment ... and had cut back on every expense I could. With our relationship deteriorating, I just didn't feel like I could afford it anymore.

After the marriage counseling ended, and having had time to digest things, I sat down with her about trying to implement some of the things we learned during marriage counseling. I think I needed a commitment from her that we were going to still work on this. She was a fairly passive participant in the MC.

We reconciled and moved back in together one year after separating. We are on much better terms but there are several "dealbreaker" issues that still exist.

Cut to now and I have decided to give this one last shot. So, I did not end marriage counseling while deciding that I was going to give it one last shot. Further marriage counseling is still an option right now.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Over the years I have tried to address her weight through discussions about diet, exercise, health.


I'm a big fan of the low carb diets, particularly paleo, because you lose weight without counting calories and you don't experience any hunger. Getting started though can be a problem, as it takes a huge mind-set shift from the way people normally approach dieting.

Go over to plaeohacks Paleo Diet, Paleolithic Diet and Lifestyle Questions and Answers and post about your situation. There are a number of regulars on there that have lost as much weight as your wife needs to lose, so they can serve as an example to her.

BTW, I'm not talking about Atkins; that is a complete different diet approach.



> One thing I had never done is address it in terms of our sex life. Well, we recently had that conversation. It wasn't the focus of the conversation but certainly in her mind, it was significant. I tried to open the discussion about our challenges with intimacy. I did bring up her weight from a couple of angles but one of them was that I found it unattractive. I tried to focus on the weight itself as being unattractive and not her.


You aren't benefiting her by beating around the bush and allowing her to remain in some delusional state about her weight and attractiveness. The truth is not only does no man find a woman that weighs TWICE her normal weight attractive. 

She needs to find her motivation from whatever source it takes to lose weight. As you said, it's as much a health issue at this point as anything else.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

I'm curious what her response was to your last conversation which included discussing the unattractive aspect of her weight and impact on your sex life. You said this is something that can be worked on and you are there to support her in any way. Did she agree that she really needed to work on her weight? Did she understand how much of an impact it has had on your attraction to her? Did she agree to make any concrete effort?

You sound so much like me...you've been the one to stew, agonize, word things carefully, internalize your hurt, to talk lovingly, encourage, support, plan...so much hard work, and in my case it has usually either fallen on deaf ears, gone unnoticed, unappreciated, or worse, made out to be MY problem. From what I gather, your efforts to really connect with your wife and get her to really empathize with your needs and concerns are hitting a brick wall. 

I'm just in a bad place this week and all I can think is I'd trade with your wife in a heartbeat if I could have a husband who cared so much about me.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> It is amazing to me how just a little awareness and a turn of phrase can make so much difference.
> 
> Just a brief background. Our marriage is technically sexless and has been for at least the last half of our 20 years together. She has a low sex drive and I have a fairly high libido. We've had a number of problems in our relationship, including a lack of physical intimacy. I have within the last month decided to make a last ditch effort to save our marriage ... you might call it a plan because it does have goals and a timetable but unlike some other posters, I am not calling it "The Plan" and there is nothing scientific about it ... I'm simply trying to give it everything I have. Among other things, I am literally recording daily our encounters and making notes. I am tracking how frequently I show affection ... hugs, kisses, holding hands. Sounds silly but our relationship had gotten to the point that affection was completely gone ... and we used to be extremely affectionate, the most affectionate couple I knew. So I am initiating the affection but I'm not initiating sex. She has a low sex drive and she has since I met her (didn't realize it at the time). I will let her initiate when she is comfortable with that. In addition to our relationship, I am focusing on myself. Trying to remove some bad habits and implement some healthy habits ... nothing extreme, just some adjustments. I'm tracking those in the same way. I have finally reached a point where I'm willing to accept that our relationship might end ... but I'm not going out without a fight.
> 
> ...


Before I read other replies.... 

Yes, phrasing can definitely affect how we respond, but it's your own thoughts, not the words themselves, that determine your response. If you'd thought "Ooh, she's being flirtatious" you would feel differently than if you thought, "She's thinking about sex, but bargaining and trying to be in control." 

Remember that your response and words also affect things. If you replied, "I'll fix the air conditioning with or without sex, because I care about your comfort," you remove the bargaining AND score for affection. If you say, "Fine, but only because we haven't had sex in forever," you've sent a completely different message. 

Think about the four ways communication can/cannot happen: 

1. Message intended but not received.
2. Message intended and received, but altered by internal or external "noise" (thoughts or actual misinterpretation of words, etc.)
3. Message not intended, but received. 
4. Message not intended and no message received.
5. Message intended and accurately received. 

Every interaction has an 80% chance of being inaccurate to some degree.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

JustSomeGuy, is it right that your wife has always had a lower drive than you? I'm sorry, I can't remember, so disregard this if it doesn't apply.

You telling her about your lack of attraction to her due to her weight may well encourage her to continue doing nothing about it. She may not *want* to be more attractive to you.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Lyris said:


> JustSomeGuy, is it right that your wife has always had a lower drive than you? I'm sorry, I can't remember, so disregard this if it doesn't apply.
> 
> You telling her about your lack of attraction to her due to her weight may well encourage her to continue doing nothing about it. She may not *want* to be more attractive to you.


Yes, she always has had a lower drive, even when we were dating over 20 years ago. Much lower, in fact. Our relationship was long-distance for a couple of years so I think that masked the issue. It was extremely frustrating in the first few years of marriage ... I kept on thinking "this is not normal" but I placed the blame on myself, not knowing what exactly I was doing wrong ... but I MUST of been doing something wrong according to my thinking.

It's one of those "darned if you do, darned if you don't." I have stressed over telling her that for a very long time ... whether to tell her or not and if so, how to tell her. I finally decided that it doesn't matter. There are two things missing in our marriage that I consider critical for me to be happy within our marriage ... communication and intimacy. At the end of the day, it does not matter why or who is to blame. If we can't fix it then the marriage cannot continue. That is when I decided to lay everything on the table. No point in glossing over things. You can't fix what you don't know is broke.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Waking up to life said:


> I'm curious what her response was to your last conversation which included discussing the unattractive aspect of her weight and impact on your sex life. You said this is something that can be worked on and you are there to support her in any way. Did she agree that she really needed to work on her weight? Did she understand how much of an impact it has had on your attraction to her? Did she agree to make any concrete effort?
> 
> *During that specific conversation, she remained quiet pretty much the whole time. The only point she showed any emotion was when I said that her weight was unattractive. She was clearly hurt by that and I remember just feeling ... sad ... when I saw that response. It was a very brief emotional response. I didn't dwell on it though; I moved on in the conversation. She didn't provide much feedback at all to any of it and that made me stay focused on talking about communication. She nodded her head and said "I agree" several times but that was about it.
> Many of our conversations go like this. I initiate the conversation and she just doesn't have much to say. I can tell by her behaviors after the conversation whether it reached her or not. Very frustrating.
> ...


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> Before I read other replies....
> 
> Yes, phrasing can definitely affect how we respond, but it's your own thoughts, not the words themselves, that determine your response. If you'd thought "Ooh, she's being flirtatious" you would feel differently than if you thought, "She's thinking about sex, but bargaining and trying to be in control."
> 
> ...


Great post! Thanks!

Yeah, I know I could have responded in a way that might turn it around. I'm a work in progress. Seems very obvious well after the fact.

You know, I was thinking about what I learned in MC. I think the biggest revelation was not only how I was failing in communication but how I wasn't "hearing" her. It was stunning to hear how much effort she thought she was putting into it because that wasn't my perspective at all. I thought I was the only one making any effort. There were so many problems that I think my interpretation of events and her efforts to communicate were being filtered through all these problems and I was unable to see some things as they really were anymore. Now, our problems were real and I could put together a nice long list of my grievances and behaviors that I think a lot of people would say "wow, you just need to divorce" ... but none of them were going to get resolved with our inability to communicate. In the end, we were both communicating but in ways that were ineffective.

For this reason, among several others, I consider our separation a success. We were not going to be able to learn how to communicate ... or even recognize that as one of our core issues ... without first taking off those filters. Going NC for one month after separation did wonders. We were both able to enter MC with clearer minds.

Now, I talk a lot about intimacy and that is an ongoing issue in our relationship but my real focus is and has been communication. Now, because she is LD, I don't think making significant progress on how we communicate is going to resolve the "physical" intimacy issues in our relationship, BUT I don't think that we are going to make much headway on intimacy UNTIL we make significant progress on how we communicate. They aren't ENTIRELY mutually exclusive.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> ... at first blush, I'd really be worried about them (my wife and your husband) but then again maybe it would work ... two people who are perfectly happy being oblivious to the problems in their marriage. It isn't a problem if you ignore it, right?
> 
> I know this is a tough week for you and you're in my thoughts. It might take awhile to sort through everything and start leading the life you want but I'm convinced you will be much happier on the other side.


Thanks for the support. And yes, it seems my H and your W would relate to each other very well. They both like to bury their heads in the sand and pretend problems don't exist. It would be interesting...would they even talk at all? Maybe they'd be happy that way...no communicating and no sex. Sounds so fulfilling (not). You and I, on the other hand...well I better not go on . Before I get strung up by my fellow TAMers...I'm having the most emotionally draining week of my life and the worst is yet to come, so I'm just having a little innocent fun with JSGW, who can relate on about all levels to my situation. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Waking up to life said:


> Thanks for the support. And yes, it seems my H and your W would relate to each other very well. They both like to bury their heads in the sand and pretend problems don't exist. It would be interesting...would they even talk at all? Maybe they'd be happy that way...no communicating and no sex. Sounds so fulfilling (not). You and I, on the other hand...well I better not go on . Before I get strung up by my fellow TAMers...I'm having the most emotionally draining week of my life and the worst is yet to come, so I'm just having a little innocent fun with JSGW, who can relate on about all levels to my situation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No doubt. I am forever indebted to my friends who helped me in various ways leading up to and during my separation. I am also forever indebted to the people here on TAM who are listening and offering whatever support they can. 

Waking ... I can almost feel what you are going through ... lots of strong emotions hitting you at once. I remember it like yesterday. No stringing up of anybody allowed.


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