# Marriage seems like Horrible Idea



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

I was married for 9 years. It was alright at first, then the sex dried up, she became a couch potato who wouldn't even help around the house and then went off and banged a bunch of dudes. Just an awful marriage! But it seemed like such a grand idea before we were married. It was looooove, right...

I have this new woman in my life and she desperately wants to marry me. I'm a fairly rational person but I can't help but wonder if it seems all roses now, what happens when I put a ring on it? Not just from past experience, just seems everyone is miserable in marriage. A select few seem happy or at least content but I wonder if they really just hit the lottery or are putting on charade and are secretly loathing their spouse... We can never really know.

On the other hand, not marrying seems safe both financially and avoids the headache of the whole wedding and the 50% chance it could go to hell. But she is very different than the ex. Our sex life is good, she has good morals and I can't even imagine her cheating on me. But then I think, marriage sucks, you never know what could happen, why do I want to even risk it again. But then I think the women I have attraction to (virtuous) all want marriage, so what can I do?

But I can't even think of one pro. Help me out here... convince me marriage has a purpose besides a tax break...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Well it was a horrible idea to marry the first one, that's for sure. 

It's good if you marry the right person but you have to want it. If you don't I wouldn't myself.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I'm pro marriage, but I'll not try and convince anyone that it's the right thing for them.

However, I do think that these are discussions you need to be having with the woman you're seeing. 

I think that if you had been clear and upfront about your indifference/ambivalence towards marriage right from the beginning, she might very well have moved on, and she may or may not have been willing to enter into a sexual relationship with you.

You're feeling pressure from her to get married, but you're also stringing her along acting like it's an option.

Know yourself, and stand up for your values. If marriage isn't for you, say so.


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## alliexoxo (Mar 12, 2018)

I have been with my husband for 11 years. We got married one year ago and things have been hell since . Insurance went up . We don't qualify for assistance. We don't make enough money to make ends meet either. All we do is stress and argue now


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

I have some conditions on whether I would get married again:

1. She has to ask
2. She has to have her own money
3. She doesn't have minor children
4. No ex drama
5. Great sex
6. More great sex
7. Even more great sex
8. Great sex always
9. Prenup
10. Be in love with her


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Marriage is neither inherently a good or bad idea of its own accord. It is an institution, lifestyle, or legal construct that will work or not work based on the humans who enter into it. 

There are no guarantees; the best you can do is reduce risk by thoroughly vetting potential applicants, and even then there’s significant risk because people can intentionally fool you before, or simply change even naturally and honestly after. 

Sounds like you see the risk as greater than the potential reward, so it seems it may be a bad idea for you.

If your girlfriend is of a different mind, she may choose to move on.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Cromer said:


> I have some conditions on whether I would get married again:
> 
> 1. She has to ask
> 2. She has to have her own money
> ...


#1 - She has to propose to you? 
#5, 6, 7, 8, 9 - I want my prenup to require and enforce all that sex.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Cromer said:


> I have some conditions on whether I would get married again:
> 
> 1. She has to ask
> 2. She has to have her own money
> ...


Sounds like you can cook then. If so, that’ll make it easier to find someone who meet #1 - 10


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I have this new woman in my life and she desperately wants to marry me.


That would be a turn off for me. Desperation is something I find unattractive in a relationship partner. Her desperate need to marry you, given your viewpoint, could be what is keeping you from marrying again.



UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> On the other hand, not marrying seems safe both financially and avoids the headache of the whole wedding ... But then I think, marriage sucks, you never know what could happen, why do I want to even risk it again. But then I think the women I have attraction to (virtuous) all want marriage, so what can I do?
> 
> But I can't even think of one pro. Help me out here... convince me marriage has a purpose besides a tax break...


Sorry. There is no way I would try to convince you that marriage is worth it. Maybe you just don't want to get married again, no matter how great the women may appear. Not everyone is cut out for marriage. If I had it to do all over, I wouldn't marry but would focus more on my career. 

I respect the institution of marriage. There are successful marriages. But given your stance, I'd tell desperate girlfriend to find another partner who wants marriage as much as her.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Marry her and hope for the best. Treat her well, accept nothing less than good treatment.
Ther are no guarantees in life.
A good marriage is pretty awesome.

How has your gf been under stress?


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

minimalME said:


> #1 - *She has to propose to you? *
> #5, 6, 7, 8, 9 - I want my prenup to require and enforce all that sex.


Yep. I will never ask again, and you can take that to the bank, put in a mattress, bury it in mason jars in the backyard, stash it in the fake Campbell Soup can in the cupboard, secure it in an expensive safe deposit box, basically whatever makes it safe.


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> *Sounds like you can cook then. * If so, that’ll make it easier to find someone who meet #1 - 10


Like a boss. I cook all the time for GF, breakfast in the morning, dinner waiting after work, you name it. I love to cook and I am good at it in all its forms. Lots of practice. It's a hobby actually. Picked it up as a kid cooking for my family. Grandma trained, old school.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Cromer said:


> Like a boss. I cook all the time *for GF*, breakfast in the morning, dinner waiting after work, you name it. I love to cook and I am good at it in all its forms. Lots of practice. It's a hobby actually. Picked it up as a kid cooking for my family. Grandma trained, old school.


I'm just curious. So your current GF knows that you'll never propose to her? That you're open to marriage, but she has to fit your list?


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

I see no reason for marriage in todays society.

The only thing I can sugest is a fair prenup. 



Good luck!


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Actually, I have been honest with my girlfriend ever since our 3rd date about how I felt about marriage. But, she is hopelessly in love with me and seems to have it as her mission to change my views on it. Who knows maybe it's working some.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Actually, I have been honest with my girlfriend ever since our 3rd date about how I felt about marriage. But, she is hopelessly in love with me and seems to have it as her mission to change my views on it. Who knows maybe it's working some.


Excellent! I stand corrected. 

So she knew the deal from the start, yet she has her own agenda. I'd not marry into that, but that's just me.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Actually, I have been honest with my girlfriend ever since our 3rd date about how I felt about marriage. But, she is hopelessly in love with me and seems to have it as her mission to change my views on it. Who knows maybe it's working some.


So she don't respect you. 

She knows whats best and she won't quit hounding you until she gets her way.


Hmm


Good luck with that!


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

minimalME said:


> I'm just curious. So your current GF knows that you'll never propose to her? That you're open to marriage, but she has to fit your list?


I know that I was tongue-in-cheek here, but the basics are there. We've talked. I was honest with her. I told her early on that had no intention of getting married again, and she said the same. 

After our trip a couple of weeks ago, the topic came up again when we were out for dinner. It was a passing comment but I figured she was fishing. So I said that I did not see any circumstance where I would ask someone to marry me again, but that didn't mean I didn't want a long-term relationship. For me, asking for someone's hand in marriage was a one-shot deal in my life. But I could see myself being married again. There was so much I loved about being married. But I had to protect myself and my children's legacy and that meant a prenup. Also, whoever it was had to be established and self-sufficient, and that I would never again be trapped in a sexless marriage. She said that she wasn't sure if she wanted to be married again. It was a short discussion. We're still together and she's crashing here tonight, and I'm making omelets for breakfast before she goes off to work (Andouillette sausage, three-cheese, tomato, and mushroom) and steaks on the grill for dinner. Maybe it's the food keeping her with me?

Seriously though, the way I see it if a woman asks me, she really wants me. I'm not chasing anymore. Not to have a big head, but I don't have too.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Cromer said:


> Like a boss. I cook all the time for GF, breakfast in the morning, dinner waiting after work, you name it. I love to cook and I am good at it in all its forms. Lots of practice. It's a hobby actually. Picked it up as a kid cooking for my family. Grandma trained, old school.


Very cool. Ditto here. In fact, my ability and willingness to cook were instrumental in landing my wife.

Since then though, she has also become an outstanding chef with a diverse repertoire as well.

We eat like kings pretty much all the time.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Marriage won't make a bad relationship any better, probably the reverse. I see it as a way to acknowledge a great relationship that you are sure you want to continue.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Cramer finds the right one, he’ll be glad to ask her. Like a boss. Lol


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Cromer said:


> I told her early on that had no intention of getting married again...





> But I could see myself being married again.







(Just messing with you. )


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Very cool. Ditto here. In fact, my ability and willingness to cook were instrumental in landing my wife.
> 
> Since then though, she has also become an outstanding chef with a diverse repertoire as well.
> 
> We eat like kings pretty much all the time.


I get a spotless house in return. Don't want to t/j, but GF is basically here all of the time now. We broke our rules about sleepovers. Didn't want any TAM 2x4's about slowing down. 0


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

@UpsideDownWorld11 I think the key to considering marriage once you've been burned is protecting yourself. I know it is for me. To be married is to trust and be vulnerable to someone in a way that is so unique in our lives. Once you've been betrayed and crushed, it is so hard to see the value in marriage again.

I loved being married. I loved having a wife. I loved the idea of having a woman who was mine and only mine (that didn't work out so well). I loved having a family unit. I loved sharing and intimate moments. I loved making memories that I thought were ours and ours alone. I loved having someone by my side through thick and thin (again, didn't work so well). I loved putting a ring on it. I loved showing someone that I considered her the center of my world with the strongest gesture I know: a proposal. I loved calling my wife "my woman". Today my perspective is much different, but it doesn't change how I feel about being a married man. But I have to protect myself now in a way I didn't consider before.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

1. Prenup 
2. She has to have her own money
3. She doesn't have minor children
4. No ex drama
5. Totally separate financials
6. Legally protected trust for myself
7. Designated free time. 
8. Prenup
9. Prenup
10. Prenup


Oh who am I fooling. There's no way in hell I would date again EVER, if I was to divorce.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

@UpsideDownWorld11

How long have you been dating her?

How old are the two of you?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

OP, the reality is that there is no REAL need or reason to get married in today's world. There may be some religious, cultural or familial reasons but if one is to be true to their self, even those superficial reasons shouldn't really matter. You can enjoy a long, healthy and fulfilling relationship with whom ever you choose. Marriage simply invites the state into your life with all of its attendant rules and regulations. When you add in the expectations imposed by others who still hold the romantic ideation of marriage, it is a wonder more marriages do not fail.
Having said that, you may meet someone who feels strongly the opposite. So at that point you must decide whether you are willing to accommodate their ideas on the matter. IOW, if you want to keep this person in your life, you may have to accept their terms on this issue. If you do decide to do this, I would hope that there is some benefit to you elsewhere in your own life.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

This is an excellent character test. She knew the score and said she was okay with it. Now she's not, and she's pestering you. It is possible she failed the test.

Question is....will you? Yeah yeah yeah she knew the score. But see, now you KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that what she really wants is marriage. Will you continue to see her, knowing you never plan to give her what she wants, using the old "I told her how it was; it ain't my fault she's hurt" loophole? Or will you go ahead and end the relationship since you know it will NOT lead where she wants?

There is nothing wrong with never wanting to marry again. IMO, there IS something wrong with excusing knowing you are hurting someone when your life goals are different. Not everyone will agree, but that is my 2 cents.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> This is an excellent character test. She knew the score and said she was okay with it. Now she's not, and she's pestering you. It is possible she failed the test.
> 
> Question is....will you? Yeah yeah yeah she knew the score. But see, now you KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that what she really wants is marriage. Will you continue to see her, knowing you never plan to give her what she wants, using the old "I told her how it was; it ain't my fault she's hurt" loophole? Or will you go ahead and end the relationship since you know it will NOT lead where she wants?
> 
> There is nothing wrong with never wanting to marry again. * IMO, there IS something wrong with excusing knowing you are hurting someone when your life goals are different. Not everyone will agree, but that is my 2 cents.*


Agree completely.

Early on, I was in a very serious relationship. We loved each other deeply and were absolutely hot for each other. We had dated long term and the relationship kept getting stronger and stronger. Other than us being young, everything pointed toward a life together, and she was definitely thinking in those terms. 

But while she fixated on happily ever after, my first priority at that point in my life was to finish college. I believed my best shot at being a good husband included having solid employability. She came from a background where you get married young and everything else will fall into place. I came from a place where you get your house in order before you start playing house. 

Graduation was three years in the future, and I felt it was unfair to ask her to wait that long. Ending it was painful for both of us at the time, but in the end, it was the right thing for both of us.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

OP I was going to say to you that if you're not going to marry her, tell her. If she stays after that, that's on her. It seems you have been honest with her though.

I believe in marriage, and I love being married. I'm very lucky that my husband isn't bitter about marriage after his messy divorce from an awful woman. For that, I am truly blessed.

However, not everyone is the marrying kind and there's nothing wrong with that - as long as everyone is clear on where things are headed and no one is strung along.

If you don't want to get married, don't.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> This is an excellent character test. She knew the score and said she was okay with it. Now she's not, and she's pestering you. It is possible she failed the test.
> 
> Question is....will you? Yeah yeah yeah she knew the score. But see, now you KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that what she really wants is marriage. Will you continue to see her, knowing you never plan to give her what she wants, using the old "I told her how it was; it ain't my fault she's hurt" loophole? Or will you go ahead and end the relationship since you know it will NOT lead where she wants?
> 
> There is nothing wrong with never wanting to marry again. IMO, there IS something wrong with excusing knowing you are hurting someone when your life goals are different. Not everyone will agree, but that is my 2 cents.



This is your character test.

He has been forthright with her from the beginning. It seems as through the discussion has come up more than once, and at every fork in the road she has continued down the path with him.

It amounts to, "hey, I'm going this direction, If at anytime you no longer want to continue this direction, then you are more than welcome to hop off this train. This train doesn't make stops."


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Windwalker said:


> This is your character test.
> 
> He has been forthright with her from the beginning. It seems as through the discussion has come up more than once, and at every fork in the road she has continued down the path with him.
> 
> It amounts to, "hey, I'm going this direction, If at anytime you no longer want to continue this direction, then you are more than welcome to hop off this train. This train doesn't make stops."


This is the response I expected, tbh. It depends on which wins - self-interest or empathy.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> This is the response I expected, tbh. It depends on which wins - self-interest or empathy.


Good.
I'm glad I didn't disappoint.

Last I checked, human beings have the cognitive ability to make judgment decisions based on what is best for themselves. They also have free will. When does personal responsibility for one's actions come into play?

The OP. made one post and hadn't been back. No where in his post did I hear the words that he loved her. I did hear him say she's desperate to marry, which makes her dumping/ghosting material in my eyes.

In a situation like this, that is filled with the potential for disaster, I would ghost them just for bringing it up.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Actually, I have been honest with my girlfriend ever since our 3rd date about how I felt about marriage. But, *she is hopelessly in love with me* and seems to have it as her mission to change my views on it. Who knows maybe it's working some.


Given ^^THIS^^ I want to ask you if some small part of you; namely, your ego, isn't wildly flattered that she is "hopelessly" in love with you. Do you think you continue the relationship, even to some small degree, because you have a woman who is so smitten?

Why do I ask this? Because I'd find her standing on the let's-get-married bandwagon to be somewhat annoying. You don't want to get married. You have been honest. But you continue to allow her to keep harping on it. NOBODY HAS THE POWER TO CONTROL YOUR THOUGHTS AND DECISIONS OTHER THAN YOU. Will she wear you down? No. Not unless YOU allow it.

Maybe someday you will want to get married. I don't subscribe to the never-say-never theory. Why not suggest the two of you just live together without the legalities? A good friend of mine lived with her partner for 30 years. They never legally married. It worked for them.

Which begs the question, why is she so hot to get married? Inquiring minds would like to know.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Prodigal said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, I have been honest with my girlfriend ever since our 3rd date about how I felt about marriage. But, *she is hopelessly in love with me* and seems to have it as her mission to change my views on it. Who knows maybe it's working some.
> ...


Well, you know girls dream about marriage. The fantasy is more powerful than the reality. She had it all planned out in her mind well before we even met. I don't understand it, but apparently it's a big deal. There is no logic in it. Maybe you have to get married to realize it kinda sucks. But I've only had one experience, so maybe it doesn't have to suck. I just dont see anything appealing about it. Nothing that lures me in. I'd love to just avoid it, but I do feel some compulsion to make her happy as my mate and that may mean considering what at one point seemed unthinkable.

I think you make a lot of good points, though. There is a certain control and power of being less invested than the other person. After getting burned I just dont have that sort of love in me anymore. Her love is irrational in nature, mine is rational. In other words, I know if our relationship ended, I'd be ok. The 'one' is a myth and I'd find another one. She, on the other hand, may not be so ok. I am the 'one' for her. 

I just feel I'm at the point where I just want to enjoy someone's company without all the drama of marriage. I know someone that did just that and I envy them. But they both went through divorce, so the allure is no longer strong.

But then I think, if I'm fairly certain it's going to last, then why not... But I need to make sure it is going to last. I'm just not in any hurry. And I want to do it because I want to not because I feel compelled. I just dont know what will compel me to taking that step.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

Marriage itself isn't a horrible idea, but it sure becomes one when you don't want it but acquiesce due to pressure.



UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Well, you know girls dream about marriage. The fantasy is more powerful than the reality. *She had it all planned out in her mind well before we even met.* I don't understand it, but apparently it's a big deal.


How much could this marriage fantasy have to do about you if she had it all planned before you met? You would seem at best to be merely a detail.

I can't help but wonder what her response would be if you agreed to be married tomorrow at town hall by the judge on your lunch hour.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> She had it all planned out in her mind well before we even met.
> 
> .


First, this statement is borderline creepy.

Second, the statement that you are her "one" and she is absolutely smitten with you contradicts the first statement.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Well, you know girls dream about marriage. The fantasy is more powerful than the reality. She had it all planned out in her mind well before we even met. I don't understand it, but apparently it's a big deal. There is no logic in it. Maybe you have to get married to realize it kinda sucks. But I've only had one experience, so maybe it doesn't have to suck. I just dont see anything appealing about it. Nothing that lures me in. I'd love to just avoid it, but I do feel some compulsion to make her happy as my mate and that may mean considering what at one point seemed unthinkable.
> 
> I think you make a lot of good points, though. There is a certain control and power of being less invested than the other person. After getting burned I just dont have that sort of love in me anymore. *Her love is irrational in nature, mine is rational. In other words, I know if our relationship ended, I'd be ok. The 'one' is a myth and I'd find another one. She, on the other hand, may not be so ok. I am the 'one' for her.
> *
> ...


How old are the two of you?

That part I bolded makes you sound, well more than egotistical. Perhaps part of the allure of this relationship is the feeling that somehow you have someone this enamored with you. Like you said you have he control here because you care less.

But, despite that big ego boost, if you two break up she will be ok. It might be just what she needs to learn that to much more cautious in love and relationships.

My take on this relationship is that you should end it. The two of you are on different pages. It's not kind of you at all to stay is a relationship that is so unequal in the 'love' you have for each other. She wants marriage. There is nothing wrong with her wanting to be married. There are benefits in marriage. You might not see them but there are. So if that's what she wants, you really should set her free so she can find the kind of relationship she wants.

She's living in a fantasy world in a way, which is often created by the brain chemicals that cause that 'in love feeling'. The fantasy is that you feel the same way she does so eventually you will marry her.

If you ever did marry her, while you carried on with the feelings of ambivalence, the marriage will be a disaster with you having at least one foot out the door.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Prodigal said:


> That would be a turn off for me. Desperation is something I find unattractive in a relationship partner. Her desperate need to marry you, given your viewpoint, could be what is keeping you from marrying again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't see women who care about marriage as Desperate.. if she came on this forum though.. I would tell her she should move on -if the guy doesn't want marriage.. any hesitation... if she is not good enough for him.. then why should she stick around.. the sad thing is though... so few Care about marriage today ... I really feel for those who care about it...because the prospects are so few...

If Marriage is a deal breaker for you... let her go... but please don't look upon someone who cares about it as desperate .... people just have different dreams / different values to how they envision "family" and their future.. it's very important to find another who shares these with you... whatever they may be....


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

Ynot said:


> OP, the reality is that there is no REAL need or reason to get married in today's world. There may be some religious, cultural or familial reasons but if one is to be true to their self, even those superficial reasons shouldn't really matter. You can enjoy a long, healthy and fulfilling relationship with whom ever you choose. Marriage simply invites the state into your life with all of its attendant rules and regulations. When you add in the expectations imposed by others who still hold the romantic ideation of marriage, it is a wonder more marriages do not fail.
> Having said that, you may meet someone who feels strongly the opposite. So at that point you must decide whether you are willing to accommodate their ideas on the matter. IOW, if you want to keep this person in your life, you may have to accept their terms on this issue. If you do decide to do this, I would hope that there is some benefit to you elsewhere in your own life.


^^^exactly^^^

First part describes precisely my stand on this topic... GF (who was informed of this a long time ago) would like me to see it the other way but seems to understand or at least accept. 

A good couple doesn't make a good couple or live happily ever after because they are married (or not). It's all about compatibility (the passive component) and conscious effort (the active one). How could a legal piece of paper change that for the better?

Why not get married anyway then? Well, there are the above mentioned reasons, and there is the risk of complacency... that I witnessed time and time again.

If this would be a dealbreaker for anyone (say OP's GF or mine) I would seriously question the underlying motives. What does she love more: me or the idea of marriage? Or maybe something else? A legal garantee of, if not romantic, financial security?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Windwalker said:


> First, this statement is borderline creepy.
> 
> Second, the statement that you are her "one" and she is absolutely smitten with you contradicts the first statement.


I don't think that the OP meant she had their particular marriage or wedding all planned out, just that it was part of her plan to be married. She believes in the fairy tale of the One, and he, for whatever reason (age, stage of life, ticking biological clock, religion, family, culture) meets her idea of who her One should be.
Far from being creepy, I think it is quite common.
She may in fact be very desperate at this point and is willing to accept whatever because she thinks anybody is better than nobody. This may or may not be the case, but even that is fairly common. It is typically why people get into and then remain in relationships which may not be optimal for them.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I was married for 9 years. It was alright at first, then the sex dried up, she became a couch potato who wouldn't even help around the house and then went off and banged a bunch of dudes. Just an awful marriage! But it seemed like such a grand idea before we were married. It was looooove, right...
> 
> I have this new woman in my life and she desperately wants to marry me. I'm a fairly rational person but I can't help but wonder if it seems all roses now, what happens when I put a ring on it? Not just from past experience, just seems everyone is miserable in marriage. A select few seem happy or at least content but I wonder if they really just hit the lottery or are putting on charade and are secretly loathing their spouse... We can never really know.
> 
> ...


*Marriage was largely meant by God for the purposes of emotional and physical support, forestalling loneliness, and for the elective creation of children.

I totally agree with these, but there is the associated element of "trust" that I now have so much trouble with, and don't really know if I'll ever be able to overcome!

I can only pray that, in time, God will come to help me with that! *


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Cromer said:


> Like a boss. I cook all the time for GF, breakfast in the morning, dinner waiting after work, you name it. I love to cook and I am good at it in all its forms. Lots of practice. It's a hobby actually. Picked it up as a kid cooking for my family. Grandma trained, old school.


Have you read the MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER? HOLD ON TO YOUR NUTS. HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS. 5 LOVE LANGUAGES. LOVE MUST BE TOUGH.

Remember the old saying. Men marry women expecting them not to change. Women marry men expecting to change them. This seems true according to my long life experience.

Maybe, ask women you date what they would change about you. Alchohol may help here. Then ask them what they would change about themselves if they could. Ask yourself the same. 

The problem with this theory is people, at least a lot of them, try to hide the things they think are their flaws. 

Another old saw is the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. Really, most people do end up being very similar to their parents. The older they get the more striking the resemblance in most aspects.


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

After thinking about this for a bit, there can be some big advantages to being married. In my case, if GF and I did end up "together forever", getting married would make sense. She could retire early and have access to my health insurance (which is very low cost and no premiums; she would have to pay a lot for hers until Medicare eligible 12 years later), my pension could be insured and she would receive a percentage for life if I died first, and she would get a number of other benefits that are only available to her if we married. Then, of course, there are the legal benefits. For some people, it would make practical sense later in life outside of the "I love being married" reason. You just have to protect yourself.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

Let's put it this way........I know a heck of a lot more married people that are miserable than I do married people that are happy. OP's original post said it best.......why bother? I have even gone so far as to try and tell my kids not to bother.......No need in today's society.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Cromer said:


> After thinking about this for a bit, there can be some big advantages to being married. In my case, if GF and I did end up "together forever", getting married would make sense. She could retire early and have access to my health insurance (which is very low cost and no premiums; she would have to pay a lot for hers until Medicare eligible 12 years later), my pension could be insured and she would receive a percentage for life if I died first, and she would get a number of other benefits that are only available to her if we married. Then, of course, there are the legal benefits. For some people, it would make practical sense later in life outside of the "I love being married" reason. You just have to protect yourself.




So what would be the benefits for you, because I didn't see a single one in that post.


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

Windwalker said:


> So what would be the benefits for you, because I didn't see a single one in that post.


Just hypothetically...freedom and choices. One example. I want to do a lot of travel while I still have my health. But I don't want to do it alone. IF I were to with someone for the long haul, then she would be much more secure in retiring early so we would have the freedom to do things that you can't when you are working. Maybe my thinking is out of whack, but honestly, this is the biggest benefit that I see for me. Among others. But I am a LONG way from that, I was just looking at the other side of the coin, so to speak.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Cromer said:


> Just hypothetically...freedom and choices. One example. I want to do a lot of travel while I still have my health. But I don't want to do it alone. IF I were to with someone for the long haul, then she would be much more secure in retiring early so we would have the freedom to do things that you can't when you are working. Maybe my thinking is out of whack, but honestly, this is the biggest benefit that I see for me. Among others. But I am a LONG way from that, I was just looking at the other side of the coin, so to speak.


That's all fine and well. I simply asked because I didn't see you state any obvious advantages for yourself. A marriage, while a obvious joining of two people, should also provide advantages to both parties.


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

Windwalker said:


> That's all fine and well. I simply asked because I didn't see you state any obvious advantages for yourself. A marriage, while a obvious joining of two people, should also provide advantages to both parties.


Very true. If I were to ask someone to retire early to be with me, then the least I could do is give her some security. But again, it's all hypothetical :smile2:


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Cromer said:


> Very true. If I were to ask someone to retire early to be with me, then the least I could do is give her some security. But again, it's all hypothetical :smile2:


Sounds completely reasonable and logical.
I'm glad you have found some happiness!


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I don't see women who care about marriage as Desperate...


Evidently you didn't read the entire thread. Did I say women who "care" about marriage are desperate???? NO. The OP stated in his first post that he gf "desperately" wanted to marry him. HIS words, not mine.

Seriously, if you are going to comment on a discussion, PLEASE read the entire thread. And DON'T attribute words or thoughts to me that I have not written.

Thank you.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

I imagine I do sound egotistical and believe me I'm nothing special. But I'm not exagerrating one bit her feelings about me. No matter who I'm with, I'm not going to feel that passion. Just not in me anymore.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Okay, so you're not an egomaniac. Tell me then, why is it you are in any sort of relationship with a woman who is so over-the-top in love with you. You cannot or will not reciprocate. I have no problem with your stance on marriage or long-term relationships. It's your gf - I think she is going to have major issues when and if you lay it on the line.

Which makes me wonder why do you want a partner who is this gung-ho on marriage if you are not? I'd like to know exactly why you are sticking around. Because I'm getting an inkling that you are a bit callous when it comes to her feelings.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

upsidedownworld11 said:


> i imagine i do sound egotistical and believe me i'm nothing special. But i'm not exagerrating one bit her feelings about me. No matter who i'm with, i'm not going to feel that passion. Just not in me anymore.


so why are you wasting her time????


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

She has qualities I desire and I find attractive. She is caring and nurturing which is beneficial to my kid. I don't think I'm wasting her time. Like I said, I might marry her. The more I think about it I probably will, eventually. But the risk vs reward of marriage just sucks, not just for me but for any relationship.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

To quote my youngest son as the attractive lady was explaining the drivers test.

"Look, I appreciate the rundown, but I'm not here for a long time, I'm just here for a good time."

Why he said it, I'll never know. He has no filter.

His mother shook her head and walked away.
I had to contain myself from rolling on the floor.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

Marriage blows.....don't do it.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

I have been married for over 30 years and I still cannot tell you that it is a good idea. It has been extremely hard work for very little benefit. That is if you assume that you could have had kids without the legal construct of marriage - but then who knows what custody or access rights you would have.

So all in all, it offers a great deal of protection to the wife/mother and can be pure hell for the husband/father. So no, I cannot disagree with you.


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> But I can't even think of one pro. Help me out here... convince me marriage has a purpose besides a tax break...


Health care, spousal rights in medical situations, financial matters, inheritance etc. 

For ME and my husband - marriage didn't matter much at all. It was actually changes in law and our health care plans that pushed us to tie the knot after 14 years together. We always said we didn't need a piece of paper to define us, and that still holds true. 

For us, marriage was unimportant, but I must admit, I am glad that we did it finally. It was a super romantic, and I do enjoy being able to use the labels husband and wife. 

I think if a couple plans to have children, then marriage is more important. Adds a level of legal stability. 



UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Well, you know girls dream about marriage. The fantasy is more powerful than the reality.


Well, not ALL girls. I never thought much about marriage, and knew sure as heck I never wanted a wedding (we eloped in Vegas). 

BUT I will agree with you. I remember growing up, and knowing girls (single girls!!!) who would peruse wedding magazines. They would pick out their colors, and what kind of flowers they wanted etc. 

I thought it was a bat s*** crazy thing to do - but there have always been many things that "other girls" and I did not share in common. This was just one more thing to the list.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I wouldn't want to marry any man who was so unhealthy he was basing his decisions about ME on some previous woman.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> I wouldn't want to marry any man who was so unhealthy he was basing his decisions about ME on some previous woman.


How exactly do you mean that? As in, he was burned by an ex so that is affecting his view of getting married, or not, in the future to someone else?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

His stinging along of this woman is directly related to his lack of healing from his marriage.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

@;


personofinterest said:


> His stinging along of this woman is directly related to his lack of healing from his marriage.


So are you saying that you can't have a long term committed relationship with out a ring...I for one believe that one marriage is enough for any man..but I can still love and be committed to someone without a piece of paper.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Lostinthought61 said:


> @;
> 
> So are you saying that you can't have a long term committed relationship with out a ring...I for one believe that one marriage is enough for any man..but I can still love and be committed to someone without a piece of paper.


Not at all. I just think making the choice about whether to marry based on the pain of the past is a sign that the past has not truly been left behind.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> Lostinthought61 said:
> 
> 
> > @;
> ...


Marriage is important to me, and something I probably want in my future with the right man, so I'm asking this as a marriage advocate, not trying to make a case for the OPs perspective. Just sorting through ideas.

But:
Let's say I have a FWB situation and I get burned by it ---the man's treatment of me was very poor. I then decide not to have another FWB based on that experience. Works this be termed as a decision made in not healing from the past?

If not, how are the two situations different?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Not at all. I just think making the choice about whether to marry based on the pain of the past is a sign that the past has not truly been left behind.


I agree to an extent. 

But what if you make that decision based on what has happened in the past, and you don't want to be in that situation again. 

You are over the pain, but, you just don't want to take that chance again. 

If I ever get married again I can assure you that it will be with a prenup that protects both of our assets. 

But as wonderful as I am, she is not ever sure if she wants to get married again, as I am also unsure...


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

I enjoy marriage. I don't think it is for everyone or necessary but it has been enjoyable


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

The value of marriage depends a lot on whether you are a logical or emotional thinker. If you are logical, then the real benefit of marriage is if you plan on having kids together they get to grow up in a household that is conforming to the societal norms of a marital commitment and I think that has a lot of inherent value. If you don't plan on having kids then there is no real value to a logical thinker and extra inherent financial risks. But, if you are an emotional thinker then marriage equates to a higher level of commitment and has inherent value that way. So the logical thinker views marriage as a financial contract (which it is) and the emotional thinker thinks of marriage as a higher level of commitment (which it can be). Which are you and which is your GF? 

My personal advice is if you are a logical thinker and if there is a big income discrepancy and you decide to marry then just make sure you have a prenup in place, because that will mitigate some of the risk. If you are a logical thinker and don't want to have more kids, then it is probably best to just cohabitate and not marry. If you are an emotional thinker, then follow your heart.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I was married for 9 years. It was alright at first, then the sex dried up, she became a couch potato who wouldn't even help around the house and then went off and banged a bunch of dudes. Just an awful marriage! But it seemed like such a grand idea before we were married. It was looooove, right...
> 
> I have this new woman in my life and she desperately wants to marry me. I'm a fairly rational person but I can't help but wonder if it seems all roses now, what happens when I put a ring on it? Not just from past experience, just seems everyone is miserable in marriage. A select few seem happy or at least content but I wonder if they really just hit the lottery or are putting on charade and are secretly loathing their spouse... We can never really know.
> 
> ...


Marriage benefits the lower-earning spouse in one important way: Social security, or the equivalent in your country. In the USA, if you're married over 10 years, then your spouse will receive half the SS amount you do...whether you stay married or not. And, if you're married and you die first, the spouse then gets all your SS.

Other than that, I do not find any benefits in the US legal system's involvement in a personal relationship. Having just gone through a divorce, the worst part of it was the 8 months that people who did not know either of us had complete control over how our financial affairs went, and created effective blockages to either of us changing jobs, upgrading/downgrading cars, moving, etc - at a time of change when those things would have been most opportune.

Unless a miracle happens again, I will never marry again. I now think the right way to do personal relationships is serial monogamy.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> I agree to an extent.
> 
> But what if you make that decision based on what has happened in the past, and you don't want to be in that situation again.
> 
> ...


I may be speaking more of tone than of words. For example, when someone says "I did not have a good experience with X. The last time I did X, it was very painful, and there really weren't any benefits. Therefore, I have decided not to do X in the future," that makes sense to me. It's like making a choice based on the data I have in front of me.

Then there is "I tried X once, and the B**** screwed me, like so many of them do. I'm never letting someone work me over like THAT again. No woman who wants a wallet is ever gonna get her hooks into ME again!"

The latter may seem like the same thing, but there is an undercurrent of leftover anger and bitterness. Also, if my current partner is treating me well, I probably shouldn't "blame" them for what a previous partner did.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I may be speaking more of tone than of words. For example, when someone says "I did not have a good experience with X. The last time I did X, it was very painful, and there really weren't any benefits. Therefore, I have decided not to do X in the future," that makes sense to me. It's like making a choice based on the data I have in front of me.
> 
> Then there is "I tried X once, and the B**** screwed me, like so many of them do. I'm never letting someone work me over like THAT again. No woman who wants a wallet is ever gonna get her hooks into ME again!"
> 
> The latter may seem like the same thing, but there is an undercurrent of leftover anger and bitterness. Also, if my current partner is treating me well, I probably shouldn't "blame" them for what a previous partner did.


I can dig this. And while I don't feel like the latter which does have a tone. I will say that understanding what was going on with my wife and my marriage changed me. 

I think it changed me for the better in so many ways, and that is a good thing. 

However, with the possible exception of my present GF, there is a part of me that will never ever love the way that I, at one time, loved my wife. 

I was without a doubt in love with her so much that it blinded me to what was going on with a lot of things. But since I woke up to reality, I am not sure that any woman will have my heart like she did. 

And of course, she pissed it away, not with just infidelity, but with everything. People can really be evil, and she was an evil person. 

Now, with time will I love my GF more? I don't know, I know that I love her differently than all of the other women that I have loved in my life. 

Who knows what the future will hold, but for me, I will always be a little bit on guard for craziness and I am not sure that will ever change...


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

Cromer said:


> I have some conditions on whether I would get married again:
> 
> 1. She has to ask
> 2. She has to have her own money
> ...


Agree with all of the above - I'd edit #4 to include "no sibling drama". My wife's older sister is a constant source of drama. Her parents and brother, along with me and many people we know, can't stand to be around her. She's caused many issues with us, which are exacerbated by my wife's refusal to confront her sister when she's being a PITA, which is most of the time. 

Also add that she can't be lazy - my wife likes to just sit around on her phone playing games. I don't need a wife who's always on the go - just needs to keep herself healthy instead of sitting on her ass complaining about how tired she is. 

And sex can't be overstated, especially when your sex life dropped to about once a year or two five years into marriage (in our early 40's with no kids at the time).


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> She has qualities I desire and I find attractive. She is caring and nurturing which is beneficial to my kid. I don't think I'm wasting her time. Like I said, I might marry her. The more I think about it I probably will, eventually. But the risk vs reward of marriage just sucks, not just for me but for any relationship.


It sounds to me that if you go in thinking marriage sucks you won't be very good at keeping the marital grass green. Marriage sucks or not to the degree people (both people) nurture it.


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

DustyDog said:


> Marriage benefits the lower-earning spouse in one important way: Social security, or the equivalent in your country. In the USA, if you're married over 10 years, then your spouse will receive half the SS amount you do...whether you stay married or not. And, if you're married and you die first, the spouse then gets all your SS.
> 
> Other than that, I do not find any benefits in the US legal system's involvement in a personal relationship. *Having just gone through a divorce, the worst part of it was the 8 months that people who did not know either of us had complete control over how our financial affairs went, and created effective blockages to either of us changing jobs, upgrading/downgrading cars, moving, etc - at a time of change when those things would have been most opportune.*


This has been my experience I was recently offered 2 Jobs recently both of which I would have taken had i still been married, unfortunately my alimony is nonadjustable and i am unable to afford to take a temporarily(1-2 years) Lower paying Job due to my child support obligation, if i voluntarily take a lower paying Job I cannot go back court and get an adjustment. Both Jobs would have been good for my career and development and even allow me to work from home and reduce my travel which is a huge hassle for me trying to work it around 50/50 custody and a XW who hates me. 



personofinterest said:


> I may be speaking more of tone than of words. For example, when someone says "I did not have a good experience with X. The last time I did X, it was very painful, and there really weren't any benefits. Therefore, I have decided not to do X in the future," that makes sense to me. It's like making a choice based on the data I have in front of me.
> 
> Then there is "I tried X once, and the B**** screwed me, like so many of them do. I'm never letting someone work me over like THAT again. No woman who wants a wallet is ever gonna get her hooks into ME again!"
> 
> The latter may seem like the same thing, but there is an undercurrent of leftover anger and bitterness. Also, if my current partner is treating me well, I probably shouldn't "blame" them for what a previous partner did.


It is wise to learn from mistakes and not make them again but do not project past frustration/anger onto a new partner.


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

For me marriage does have some benefits like other posters have mentioned but it all depends on who you marry and how you both view it, if you view it as a piece of paper then it has no meaning, if you view it as a commitment to each other and both provide benefits to each other under that commitment then your experience will be better.

There are also more traditional people who absolutely would not consider having children unless married and there reason is tradition and becoming what they view as a family.

Everyone is different, I find just from personal observation men(myself included) are least likely to want to get married again because divorce was such a vulnerable experience, men do not come together and support each other like woman do so you feel helpless or at least i did during the process legally and emotionally it takes it toll as you are just dragged along until someone decides your future for you and you are at the mercy of the courts. 

As a part time single dad there are no play dates(at least for me) for the children to get together with other single dads/parents and mix, there are a bunch of single moms though who all meet up with each other and gossip and socialize etc but as a guy it just does not work, you would either be hit on (not always a bad thing) or be the creepy guy the husbands would worry about. 

There just seems to be a bigger support network for woman or at least from what I saw and experienced and if you take into account finances there are many woman being taken care of my men but very few men being taken care of by woman so after recovering financially from a Divorce or at least semi recovering you tend to be a little tighter with the purse strings and less eager to give up hard earned cash to support or semi support someone else or have them they and dictate how the money is spent.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Marriage is important to me, and something I probably want in my future with the right man, so I'm asking this as a marriage advocate, not trying to make a case for the OPs perspective.  Just sorting through ideas.
> 
> But:
> Let's say I have a FWB situation and I get burned by it ---*the man's treatment of me was very poor*. I then decide not to have another FWB based on that experience. Works this be termed as a decision made in not healing from the past?
> ...


I would think so. Personally, if I like FW, the fact that one person was not good to me would be the issue. And since I do, that would be the conclusion I would make.


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