# Lesbian/Bi/Serial... oh my



## Tover26

Hi, new poster and posting first time. I've lurked and read many of the posts here and finally figured... why not? Lets put the story up and see if and how the forumthink responds. 

I've been married 8 years. We met through a church function after both of us had gone through divorces where our respective spouses cheated. To be clear, we did not know each other till we met at this church function long after our dvs had been processed. She had a daughter from her 1st marriage. I had no kids. We got married and I adopted her daughter, we had another daughter. It was a good 8 years. In early 2011, I lost my job, quickly found work as a contractor but making about 50% less. She went back to work because both of our daugthers were finally in school (they are 6 and 9). I'm 37. My wife is 31.

By March 2011, my wife was having an online affair that lasted till end of August with a teenager in Singapore... she claims she thought he was 35. By August, she was having a lesbian affiar with a 19 year old girl that lasted till I found out about it end of September. The online thing seems to have been an EA. The lesbian thing was full on woman to woman sex, I love yous, plans to live together, etc. I was uncomfortable and unhappy about their supposed "BFF/friendship" almost from the get go but like many of you, I was told "you're being irrational/jealous/insert favorite adverb/adjective". 

The other woman (OW) had a concerned friend I guess who sent me an entire Facebook chat between the two of them on 9/23. I can post it here, but don't see what it adds. The salient points from it are that this chat was a week after my wife told me she wanted a divorce and we supposedly started to reconcile - on condition of a postnuptial divorce agreement... which is done. This FB chat was awful for me to read and I tried to digest it for a few days before my wife suspected I might "know" something and tested the waters with an awesome speech about how much she loves me, how happy we have been in our marriage but... she needs to tell me that this OW kissed her on the cheek once. I asked her if that's it and with tears in her eyes she assured me that it most certainly was. I started reading her FB chat to her and I will never forget the "oh ****, I've been caught!" look on her face. The next 3 weeks, it all came out drip by drip. So, it's been about a month now. I'm going to try and break it down... 

- March '11 to Aug '11. Online EA.
- August '11 to Sept '11. Sexual affair with a woman. Full EA and physical affair. OW is a many partner bisexual. 
- 9/23 I get this FB chat between my wife and OW. 
- FB chat details 1) many hurtful and painful things said about me and their plans to be together by raking me over for child custody, alimony, etc, 2) fairly explicit descriptions of what and how they love each other, 3) the OW was going to help my wife break it off with some guy she was having an affair with that was threatening to blackmail her to me if she didn't see him more often (#BlackmailGuy), 4) the OW asked about my wife's other lesbian relationships (#OtherWomen) and my wife described some of them, and 5) allusions to other affairs over the years (#OtherAffairs). 

So, this all was a week after we were reconcilling based on an expedited divorce agreement. I was fine with the dv agreement because I had a strong suspicion that my wife was cheating. I expedited it. Things were great during this 1 week window. I had no proof of infidelity so I bought into the crap about how we were having a rough patch and "Yes dear, I am a bit prone to jealousy after my last wife cheated and left me for my best friend" and "Isn't it funny that you think I'm having an affair with a teenaged girl?! Ahahahaha :rofl:" Then... I get this email with this entire FB chat.

On each of these next points, _my wife's counter is that these were LIES she told to the OW to make her seem cooler and edgier to someone that was into swinging, orgies, multiple partners, drugs, etc_. Wife says she felt she needed to tell these lies to bolster her own image with the OW... that this OW and the online EA are the only times she ever strayed. 
 *#BlackmailGuy*. Wife told OW that she had been having an affair with a local married man for about 3 years and recently, he had started pressuring her to move in with him because he had separated from his wife. He wanted to see my wife more often and if she didn't, he was going to post sexy pics of her on the internet and send me the links. _I have zero evidence of this except the FB chat between wife and OW. _
 *#OtherWomen*. Wife told OW that she had been with many other women many times as one night stands before and during our marriage. 
 *#OtherAffairs*. Wife told OW that she had had multiple affairs of one night stands up to several month long relationships throughout our marriage. 

So, that's the history. I'm about to lose my job because I can't concentrate and am utterly depressed by all of this. It seems illogical that my wife would tell lies to impress someone already impressed with my wife and in love with her. It seems odd that my wife would try to impress someone she says she wanted to do a lesbian marriage with by telling her stories of gross infidelity and serial cheating. I find myself more inclined to believe her FB chat as the truth... the truth about how she felt about me, our marriage, our daughters, our family, and the truth about how she felt about the OW. I hate the online EA, but it doesn't seem to have been sexual at all... and in point of fact, had my wife not kept it secret, I don't think it would have evolved into an EA at all. 

Of course, when caught, it all reverses... and wife is now 1000% sure she isn't a lesbian, isn't bi, all things said to OW were a lie, etc. She seems to be trying hard - No Contact, consistent focus on family and marriage recovery, etc. 

Straight marriages when one spouse is bi or gay seem to have awful survival rates. Same when one spouse is a serial cheater. I don't understand and don't know what to do. Do I believe the lies she says she told the OW or do I believe the lies she's telling me? It's like the X-Files... the truth is out there somewhere.


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## Tover26

Long post I know. Sorry. In the dv agreement, she gets the kids and I pay child support... but my wife needs to be stable as a person and in her sexual orientation before I'd feel safe letting our kids be with her. The OW is threatening to cut me and our kids (allegedly) since my wife broke up with her (alleged break up). I feel like until my wife is stable in why she cheated in the first place, she can't even begin to address the bi/lesbian and serial cheating question. Even if I someday believe that she lied to the OW about that stuff, I don't have it in me to do this again. If the final resolution is her coming out as a lesbian, it doesn't seem there's any point at all in belaboring our marriage - I just need to give her time to stabilize as a human and then we divorce. Anyone see anything else in this?


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## Shaggy

I think you will absolutely have to get her to take a polygraph to unravel her lies. Either she's lying to the OW to be cool, or she's lying to you to save her money ticket.

The only way you're going to know is to have her take a poly graph. it's a few hundred $, but you can find them in the phone book. Look here on TAM for the recent thread on polygraphs.

Going back to the EA, you made a big mistake in not following up with full transparency by your wife. You should have ALL her passwords and account and full access to her phone. Also she is not to delete texts/messages unless you say it's ok to do so.

You also need to get a keylogger onto your PC asap to track what else she's doing on there, including secret email accounts.

Your wife is a serial cheat. She is also a practiced liar. Be very wary of her.


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## Shaggy

Has your wife gone full no contact with the OM?

Has she sent the no contact letter?

You wife should not respond to the OW in anyway and should instead inform you of every contact attempt.

no deleting emails - no deleting texts.

if the OW is threatening you and your kids - do have records of her doing that ? because you should then get a restraining order against her.


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## bryanp

I think you need to get divorced as soon as possible. How many times does your wife have to lie and cheat on you and put your health at risk for STD's. Your wife is a liar. Absolutely demand a polygraph.

Actually you should just divorce her. She clearly has no respect for you or your marriage. If you do not respect yourself then who will? How much longer will you allow her to humiliate and disrespect you?


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## Tover26

She's doing the No Contact thing... but how do you know really? 

Has anyone on the forum done the polygraph thing and had it work out? I understand they are expensive and limited... 
- Are you a lesbian? Ummmm... maybe not right now. Would a poly answer this?
- What else are you lying about? Ummm... 

I understand you have to restrict them to yes/no/angst-ridden questions to be effective and even then they aren't 100%.


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## StrangerThanFiction

I would only consider a polygraph if you thought you needed to know the truth about the "blackmail guy, other women, and other affairs". If those had not happened, and you found that out by poly, would you be more likely to stay and try to make it work?? 

You already have significant proof though. Proof of an affair and proof that she planned to not only divorce you but also to "rake you over for child custody". Do you need/want to know more to make a decision about what to do? 

what exactly did you agree to in the post-nuptual agreement?

If I were in your shoes, I don't know how I would ever be able to truly believe what is going on in your wife's head. Does she love you? Does she even love men? Do you want to hang out with someone who was going to rake you over the coals and divorce you?


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## Tover26

Poly would be (ideally) about bi/lesbian/serial affairs and likelihood of her doing it again, about sincerity of making "us" work. We have two awesome daughters. I don't want a divorce and would be willing to give it a go if I could resolve that the OW was an escape and all the other crap was affair-induced alien mindjob-lies. Poly would expose all the things as either lies or truth... and I have no evidence of them at all except this one FB chat. 

Other than that, except for the kids and not wanting to tear the family apart, I'm with you all the way Stranger Than Fiction. Everyone gets to f*** up once in my book. If this was a 1x thing, I'll give it another chance. If she had already fessed up to multiple affairs, I wouldn't be posting here, I'd be too busy doing a dv.

Dv agreement... money to split up, custody arrangement, child support and insurance arrangements, etc. Normal stuff you'd expect to see in a court dv but without the expense and acrimony of divorce lawyers.


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## morituri

Shaggy said:


> if the OW is threatening you and your kids - do have records of her doing that ? because you should then get a restraining order against her.


Indeed. While it just be false bravado - those who do don't warn first - from a scorned lesbian lover, nevertheless you have to inform the police so that her threats will be on file. Is your wife aware of the OW's threats against you and the kids? If she is, what was her reaction to them?


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## Shaggy

The poly would clearly be 

Direct questions about the supposed ther relationships existing, blackmail her plans and her reasons for staying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

Another thing, do a paternity test of your 6 year old child. By your wife's own admission, she has been serial cheating throughout the marriage so there is a strong possibility that your child may not be biologically yours. 

Click on the link below titled 'Dad's divorce' and inform yourself of what you can do to protect yourself if things change and turn ugly.


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## tacoma

Do the paternity test and get the hell out of that madness man.

Divorce her.

You say you have a post-nup?

Does it deal with infidelity?


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## aug

Your wife has serious character flaws. You met at a church functions? And the teachings of the church allows her type of behavior?

I think staying with the marriage would be hell for the kids and you. It'll seriously fu*ked their heads and put you into depression.


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## Arnold

bryanp said:


> I think you need to get divorced as soon as possible. How many times does your wife have to lie and cheat on you and put your health at risk for STD's. Your wife is a liar. Absolutely demand a polygraph.
> 
> Actually you should just divorce her. She clearly has no respect for you or your marriage. If you do not respect yourself then who will? How much longer will you allow her to humiliate and disrespect you?


Excellent advice. You are married to a serial cheating, personality disordered woman, IMO, These folks are excellent liars and mask their true selves effectively during courtship. You know the tip of the iceberg re this woman you married.


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## sadcalifornian

MY XWW was bisexual. I don't think she cheated on me during our 10 yr M, but she did cheat with OM as an exit A. 

In your case, she is not only bisexual, but also extremely promiscuous with series of As. Personally, I think you are better off walking away from this M. Then again, due to the fact you have children, you may be inclined to give her another chance. The decision is yours. The odds she will be a faithful, reborn W after this is not very good. This, you must know. 

If you do want to try R, you must at least force her to confess fully. You cannot let her rugsweep and just move on. If she is unwilling to confess to those accounts revealed in FB, then you must demand "polygraph". I don't see any other way. There simply are too much bad stuff that you cannot look the other way. It will be this huge elephant in your M always if the truth is not let out and dealt with. 

I kinda doubt she feels much remorse at this point. First of all, she still refuse to confess. Also, the past behavior shows she is very callous and deceiving, and this just may be her general character makeup than some lapses in judgment. 

Right now, she is just in damage control mode. If she divorce you now over this, she sees that the children's life (I am sure she does care about her kids at least) and her reputation will be severely damaged as her H(you) will most likely share this info with everyone else. This, she must be very afraid of. So, do not put too much stock in her remorseful(?) behaviors now. Most likely they are not sincere. 

As for her bisexual nature, there is not much you can do about it. Once a drug user, forever tempted by it till death. Such homosexual experiences early on and the subsequent tendancy will stay with her forever. On top of that, she is reckless and promiscuous. Just a bad, bad combination. My XW at least put some value in fidelity despite her bisexual needs. 

It's one thing to demand your W not to have any opposite sex friend, but how can you demand your W not to have any same sex friend either? It's just an impossible demand. This is why your future with this M, this woman, is quite bleak. I am sorry to say this. 

At least demand Polygraph to force her to face her inner demon, and see how things go.


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## Shaggy

There is another aspect to the story which is troubling. Look at the OW she hooked up with. Someone who is terribly promiscuous, someone who actually would want someone with the history you wife related to her. The OW is a very sleazy lowlife. Think about, this is the kind f person you wife is drawn to.

Even if she didn't have these other claimed affairs, there is something seriously messed up inher that would even want to hookup with this trashy OW
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aug

Shaggy said:


> There is another aspect to the story which is troubling. Look at the OW she hooked up with. Someone who is terribly promiscuous, someone who actually would want someone with the history you wife related to her. The OW is a very sleazy lowlife. Think about, this is the kind f person you wife is drawn to.
> 
> Even if she didn't have these other claimed affairs, there is something seriously messed up inher that would even want to hookup with this trashy OW
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



normally, I would say counseling. But here she may need an exorcist?


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## sadcalifornian

aug said:


> normally, I would say counseling. But here she may need an exorcist?


:iagree:

It must be one hell of a horny devil.


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## Shaggy

I wonder if the other woman was in some why a dominating personality. Possibly controlling and abusive? 

Maybe in some twisted way, being accepted by her gave you wife an elevated feeling of worth? 

Just trying to guess here. 

The OW seems to aggressively be trying to end your marriage. She may continue to pull things and try to manipulate your wife. Has your wife gone full and verifiable non-contact with the OW?


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## Lazarus

1) She has got to stop the crazy mind games with you and her trickle truth lying. When you ask her a question and she responds, check if her eyelinds go down; if so, she's lying.

2) Ban access to the "social" networking fvuckbook sites. They are dangerous. Just think, there is an audit trail of her expliots and this is being watched by big brother sites. If that information got into the wrong hands it could be dangerous. 

Get rid of these sites during your attempt to reoncile.

3) Before actioning 2)above write a no contact letter. You make sure these are sent. Verify everything.

With the outside influences removed, go to work on your marriage as that is what you want to do.

Consider a private chat with boss at work saying you have a personal family crisis and enquire as to what can you both do to help manage this difficult period that benefits both you and your employer. If you have been a productive employee in the past, your company maybe very supportive.

There is no way with this dangerous situation of a blackmail guy in the background that your kids can leave home to go with mom into an unsafe environment. 

You are the steady normal influence in their life.


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## Tover26

Thanks. Lets see... 
- OW's threats. This is just hearsay from people I don't know and have never met. I have no "proof" or I'd have the restraining order already. 
- All the rest of your points are in line with my own thoughts but for the kids' sake I feel I have to give my wife time to stabilize so since I'm stuck here I'm giving R my best. Because I'm a wreck, I'm not exactly Mr. Fun and Awesome Dad or Husband, but I'm trying.
- I've been on my job for almost 2 months. Day 3 was when my wife asked for divorce. Day 6 was when we had the dv agreement worked out. Day 16 was DDay... I have no performance history at all to justify confiding in my boss or anyone. I'm actually looking for other jobs as a backup to being fired if I can't pull it together. 
- Wife seems to be abiding by No Contact, but how do you ever know? I have no interest in policing her because of the low survival rate marriages have when a straight spouse is trying to make things work with a lesbian or practicing bisexual. 

My worst fear is not R and having it turn out my wife is sincere in making things work out. Next worse is the personality disorder/etc stuff voiced by everyone on this thread. At the end of the day, would a polygraph even address any of these issues, or is there another way?


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## Bartimaus

Shaggy said:


> I wonder if the other woman was in some why a dominating personality. Possibly controlling and abusive?
> 
> Maybe in some twisted way, being accepted by her gave you wife an elevated feeling of worth?
> 
> Just trying to guess here.
> 
> The OW seems to aggressively be trying to end your marriage. She may continue to pull things and try to manipulate your wife. Has your wife gone full and verifiable non-contact with the OW?


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
Yep,sounds like a man hater to me too with a very mean demon.


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## warlock07

> Straight marriages when one spouse is bi or gay seem to have awful survival rates


That should be last thing on your mind. She is utterly shameless, lying , deceptive and has no respect for you. That during the R is even more repulsive. You can never trust such a person. You will never be able to trust her again. You will never be sure if she will stay when a better alternative comes along. I can only assume what happened during the first marriage too.


Also OP, threaten her with a polygraph and see how she reacts (if it is too expensive). Offer her a chance to come clean for any chance of R. Maybe that's all that you need


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## Tover26

Okay, humor me... I've mentioned the polygraph and she had a "bring it on" mentality. What questions?
1. Did you want your affairs to end your marriage?
2. How many people were you involved with sexually in 2011?
3. How many affairs did you have before 2011?
4. Have you continued to have contact with any of your lovers?
5. Did you use any recreational drugs besides alcohol during your affiars?
6. Are you sexually attracted to women?
7. Are you sexually attracted to your husband?
8. You told your female lover about another male lover, that his name is Thomas. Did you have an affair with Thomas?
9. You told your female lover about having been with many other lesbians during and prior to marrying. How many? Besides Ally, when was the most recent one?
10. Are there more lies you have not yet told your husband about?


...fill in the gaps with me crew. I don't know how these work, but I'd love to have a good questionairre built up.


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## the guy

Lets throw in;
11) are you commited to your husband?
12) did you in fact have multiable ONS, male and female?
13) are you will to do the heavy lifting in helping your husband heal ?


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## aug

Tover26 said:


> Okay, humor me... I've mentioned the polygraph and* she had a "bring it on" mentality*.


Probably the same mentality she used with her lesbian partner.

If she's an accomplished liar, the polygraph could be a waste of time. But, it would be interesting.


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## Shaggy

do you have a plan to leave your husband
have you made a plan to divorce
have you told your husband about all your lovers
are you still seeing any lovers other than your husband
do you plan on meeting up with any lovers other than your husband
have you ended all your extra marital affairs
have you had an std
have you had an std test
do you have money hidden away


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## ladybird

Put a key logger on her computer. if she is still having contact with the OW/OM then you will know.. they also make key loggers for most smart phones.. Ger her phone records.

Polygraphs test can be easily passed even if you are lying. I would use this as a last resort...

Also, you can get a voice activated digital recorder (they are fairly inexpensive you can get one at wal-mart for like 30 bucks or so.) put it in her car, under her seat, make sure she wont find it.


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## Tover26

Key logger? Naw... honestly, if you have to police a wayward that much is it even worth it? :scratchhead: Plus, her computer records, indirectly because it was her lover's side that messed up, gave her away. I think the big lesson learned for her and all cheaters out there is to avoid computer records. 

So, polygraphs cost $700 in my area. They'll only do 3 questions per session. So delving to the root of it all:
- How many people have you had sexual contact with since we first met? (supposedly 2 if she's being honest, me and the OW).
- Are you sexually attracted to women?
- Are there more lies and secrets your husband should know about?

To answer some of the other questions posted... my wife's reaction to the alleged threats was that she didn't believe it but she has been extra-vigilant about locking things up and not leaving our kids alone.


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## Chaparral

"Key logger? Naw... honestly, if you have to police a wayward that much is it even worth it?"

Depends on how highly you value your family. What are you willing to do to save your family?

By the way, a line like that has been used over and over here, always with bad results.


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## Shaggy

Keylogger, yres. Why? Because WW lie, and you must use what tools are available to find the truth.

Do I believe in forever having a keylogger, nope. However that's an after the cheating is fully ended and verified. You are not there yet. So the keylogger is an essential too in the investigation right noe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RadicallyAccepting

Tover26 said:


> Okay, humor me... I've mentioned the polygraph and she had a "bring it on" mentality. What questions?
> 1. Did you want your affairs to end your marriage?
> 2. How many people were you involved with sexually in 2011?
> 3. How many affairs did you have before 2011?
> 4. Have you continued to have contact with any of your lovers?
> 5. Did you use any recreational drugs besides alcohol during your affiars?
> 6. Are you sexually attracted to women?
> 7. Are you sexually attracted to your husband?
> 8. You told your female lover about another male lover, that his name is Thomas. Did you have an affair with Thomas?
> 9. You told your female lover about having been with many other lesbians during and prior to marrying. How many? Besides Ally, when was the most recent one?
> 10. Are there more lies you have not yet told your husband about?
> 
> 
> ...fill in the gaps with me crew. I don't know how these work, but I'd love to have a good questionairre built up.


"Do you want" questions will be useless on a polygraph. The questions need to be about facts. "Are you sexually attracted" ? This isn't magic. Stick to hard facts.

"Did you have an affair with another man during your marriage"

Things like that. But honestly, it sounds like your wife may be a sociopath or a Borderline, and if so, she can probably beat a polygraph.


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## Chaparral

RadicallyAccepting said:


> "Do you want" questions will be useless on a polygraph. The questions need to be about facts. "Are you sexually attracted" ? This isn't magic. Stick to hard facts.
> 
> "Did you have an affair with another man during your marriage"
> 
> Things like that. But honestly, it sounds like your wife may be a sociopath or a Borderline, and if so, she can probably beat a polygraph.


If she agrees to take a poly that says a lot. Isn't it unlikely she would know she could beat a poly test? Just saying. :scratchhead:


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## Tover26

Okay, so for fun, I asked her what the questions would be for the 3 allowed in the $700 polygraph that she would most want to be questioned about... they were:
1. How many people have you had sexual contact with since meeting your husband?
2. Are you a lesbian?
3. Are you a bisexual?

So, I asked her how she'd answer these questions. 
1. None. Bzzzz, wrong. She had contact with at least me. 
2. No. Bzzzz, wrong. It's an opinion question.
3. No. Bzzzz, wrong, opinion question again. 

Wasted $700 if it went that way. So I told her my 3. 
1. Have you had sexual contact with anyone besides your husband and female lover?
2. Are you still lying or hiding truth from your husband?
3. Are you capable of of a long term committed and exclusive relationship?

She had to think long and hard before answering these after an inital blurting out of 1 - No, 2 - No, and 3 - Yes. But she seems to be trying and I give her credit for that. The core thing to address seems to be the Why... she can talk and talk about everything except Why. I'm sure you've all experienced this as well. 

Meanwhile, my health is getting worse. Yay. How can we reconcile when things with work, my health, our finances, everything just keep getting worse and worse?    I feel like the one thing I need most is time right now and everything seems to be consipiring to take it away. I just want to curl up and sleep (but can't) and zone out for a few days (but can't). 

Anyone experiencing Hope out there? I'm coming to realize that the story of Pandora's Box is actually an affair recovery story... all the horrible/terrible things come pouring out and when the world is about to die, divine intervention allows one small emotion of Hope to escape and light the darkness.


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## Tover26

It occurs to me that perhaps a better way to address the difference between what she chatted about on FB vs what she's telling me:
- I love you OW and want to be with you etc.
- "It was all a lie. I was breaking up with her and didn't want her to get all weird about it. So I was distancing myself and taking it by degrees."

Would be to have this be one of the polygraph questions...
_ - On 9/18, you had a FB chat with your lover about 1) other affair relationships, 2) plans to leave your husband and be with her, and 3) that your attempt to reconcile was a "pathetic last ditch effort to save your dysfunctional little family". Were you lying to her?_

It seems that this 1 question resolves a lot of the core issues.


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## sadcalifornian

As for the polygraph, get the facts from your W first, and challenge them with polygraph. If she admits that she had PA only with the 19 yr old, then test her if she had sex with her only. If she claims she never had sex with any other man, then test her if such is true. And, also you can test her if she indeed loves her husband and want to remain married. 

I am not a polygraph expert, but I think an open-ended questions do not well in polygraph exam. 

Also, both of you must take STD test. There is misconception that Lesbian sex does not involve penetration and therefore no need for STD test. This is untrue. Homosexuals carry STD far more frequently than straight people, as they tend to sleep around more. From your story, the 19 yr old seems a butch type, which means she sleeps around with numerous women. You guys are at high risk of STD.


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## Tover26

Ugh, we feel like we're making progress and then she keeps saying things that trigger bad things for me. I know many of you go through this too. 
- Interview with a business owner... "She just wasn't attractive to me." WTF?! You're interviewing based on how attractive your female boss is? "No no no, I'm just saying she was fat and nasty." Ummm, that's not what you said.
- After maintaining that she wasn't attracted to her lover since DDay, last night some true feelings emerge and when I go, "See that wasn't so hard now was it?" She gets all freaked out and retreats to her original stance. C'mon, if you can't be honest about stupid things like that you enjoyed kissing her, how can you expect me to believe the bigger stuff? Really? You kissed her often and frequently and it did nothing for you... you just endured the torture of it?
- And the list can go on and on and on. 

Does TAM have any effective threads about nightmares and dealing with them?


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## morituri

Tover26, my oldest daughter has a friend who was a soldier stationed in Afghanistan who suffered from severe episodes of PTST (post traumatic stress disorder). At the beginning of the year he underwent EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) therapy, and according to him, he no longer suffers from PTSD. You might want to consider checking into it to see if it would help you. I sure wish that I had known about it after I discovered my ex-wife's betrayal.


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## Tover26

I'll check it out morituri. We just got back from a family hike with the kids. It was a gorgeous autumn day with crunchy leaves, the dog, trees to climb on, puddles to jump in. Walking through this area where we've been a 1000x as a family, I found myself looking at my wife and wondering if all the times we walked this during her As, if she was wishing she were with those other people and enduring it for show purposes only. I hate this.


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## Chaparral

Tover26 said:


> I'll check it out morituri. We just got back from a family hike with the kids. It was a gorgeous autumn day with crunchy leaves, the dog, trees to climb on, puddles to jump in. Walking through this area where we've been a 1000x as a family, I found myself looking at my wife and wondering if all the times we walked this during her As, if she was wishing she were with those other people and enduring it for show purposes only. I hate this.


Ask her. And watch her face,


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## Tover26

Asked her. She replied with total sincerity that she loved hiking as a family and never once thought about those things. :scratchhead:


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## Tover26

Well, we're moving 2.5 hours away next weekend. That'll put us away from her lovers and past. I hope we get a chance to start over again and have some time to work things out. I can't sleep still and while my concentration has improved from seconds to minutes, it's not enough for work and I'm in disciplinary review. Big f'ing sigh. 

My wife appears to be sincerely trying but I feel like I'm in a stage where I'm noticing but apathetic and I'm not feeling a lot of love, just pressure to fall back in love and move on. I think it's a bad thing when you see everything though a bleak and despairing lense but sincere efforts after all of this and I'm realizing I might have fallen out of love. I don't remember a "falling out of love" phase in the recovery phases you go through after an affair. NC seems intact. But I just can't bring myself to do a keylogger... it seems counterpurposed to falling in love and rebuilding trust. 

I feel we've made good progress on trust. Not so much on being in love.


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## Shaggy

It's good you are progressing, but you seem to be rug sweeping. Do not rugg sweep it only set ps up the next time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

If it were me I would use all possible means at my disposal to find out what was going on one way or another. Otherwise the doubt would keep me in a state of limbo. Not knowing anything for sure is worse than knowing something bad.


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## Tover26

As part of the move, my wife is going down and will be staying in a hotel by herself for about 4 days to get her job down there started up. I'm remembering when I was last there... this exact same day. I was going down for Day 1 on a new job. My wife slept the entire day and then got mad at me when it was time to leave. I got the kids dressed, to church, fed, bathed, played with them, and we cleaned the house. I was a stress case. After Day 1, I went back to the hotel I was staying at, and got a text from my mom indicating that my daughter had almost missed piano and when she called my wife, she came over with "some girl" and it was weird. I had a full on panic attack and couldn't get a hold of my wife. I almost called the police. Finally at 10 pm, with images of my kids left alone, I called a friendly neighbor who went over and he knocked. My wife finally called me and said she'd been asleep since 830 pm (earliest she'd ever gone to bed ever)... she denied and then admitted hanging out with her friend and then casually mentioned that her friend was spending the night because she was homelss. I died inside. 

Day 2 I came home and my asked for a divorce. 18 days later, the truth came out... that the friendly neighbor's knocking had interrupted my wife having sex with her girlfriend in the basement. Weeee.... Tomorrow is my wife's Day 1 on her job. Every part of me wants to get in bed and let her see what it all feels like... and to be "unavailable" while she starts a new job on her Day 1, etc. Every part of me isn't letting me... so again, I woke up, got the kids ready, made an awesome breakfast for everyone, and am trying to put on a happy face. It's our last Sunday here in our house. Next Sunday we'll be in a new place.

I hate this. I had so many hopes and dreams tied up in a new life and lifestyle in a new place. It's all gone. The fun and excitement died on DDay and all I feel now is lethargy and fatigue. The light at the end of the tunnel for my family has changed to hope that things work out for my kids, but even as my wife appears to be trying, I'm feeling farther and farther out there, away from the family. I don't understand why my wife would choose the time she did to do this. I don't understand how I can get through this time of new jobs, relocating, infidelity blow up and fall out... without time and I spent all day every day last week including Saturday working from 6 am till 10 pm trying to get caught up, trying to hold it together for just one more day. I'm tired of it all. I haven't seen my kids for 2 months now even though I'm sure they're still living here in my house. I've become a terriblly unavailable and preoccupied father (all the things I hated about my own father), and I know I'm sucking it up as a husband because all I care about is seeing my wife stabilize enough to be a good mother for the kids. Maybe at that point I get to choose whether I stay or leave forever. 

What is rug sweeping?


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## Shaggy

Rug sweeping is where you agree to move on with the marriage after an affair without her fully dealing with the fully knowing what went on and with who, and without her and you dealing with the why she did it. I don't mean to beat the issues to death, but they do need to be discussed, and they need to remain open down the road for you to discuss.

A big part is not deciding to move on and acting as if nothing happened.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tover26

Hi Shaggy,

Rugsweeping. Got it. I wouldn't say that's what we're doing. It's the nature of having a dv agreement worked out. I accepted a new job conditioned on relocating about 20 days before DDay. Staying here where my wife is surrounded by a very negative past and also where we couldn't afford to live without me being at 100% makes little sense so we're moving ahead with the relo. 

In the new area, if things work out, we can afford to get by on her income while I job search. We couldn't do that where we are now. If we end up dv'd, she can have a good lifestyle and at least provide a home for the custody she gets in the dv agreement. To be honest, I doubt I'm even going to make it that long. My future is all murky and while I see her figuring things out and moving on with life, rugsweeping it away maybe, all I really care about is the kids right now. So, I work insane hours trying to hold things down to get clear of the relocation and dream of a day when maybe things make sense again and I can be a great father. I feel the day and era of my even wanting to be a great husband may have come and gone already. I don't understand how cheaters do a 180 turnaround and go from wanting dv and telling the world how much the other spouse sucks to suddenly "I'm in love with you and only you. You're my one true love." 

Really? Is that how love works for you?


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## Tover26

So... update.

A lot has happened. We've moved. There have been epiphanies and setbacks, more of the first than the latter one I suppose. I'm having a problem though alluded to earlier, which is this: I'm falling out of love. I don't feel like I love her anymore. I feel like I'm going through the motions to buy time, to give things a chance, to buy time. When we kiss, nothing. When we have sex, nothing... it's getting hard for me to even be turned on. When we're together, nothing. And it's spilling over to how I feel about the kids as well like the growing distance and separation I feel with her is making me feel distant and separated from the kids. 

Today was my last trip back "home" to grab the last few things from our old place for the new place and it was sooooo hard to actually come back here. I don't remember a falling out of love phase. Do you ever fall back in love? I remain committed to the time and healing process, but I continue to not see a future for myself. 

It's a shame really because she seems to be sincerely trying. There's no way we'd have pulled this relocation off without her support, cooperation, and participation. I'd have keeled over long ago. But, when I think about it, I just get angry at all the hopes and dreams I thought were queuing up for this time, for this move to be a good thing... and while it has, it has turned from a "good thing for the family" into a "we've got to get away from the psychotic slasher lover". 

They say that time heals all wounds, but when I look backwards I find that all my happy memories seem to have left and when I look forwards, I see my kids and wife happy but I'm not there. It's been almost 2 full months since DDay and I feel empty, spent, and broken. What do you do when love dies?


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## Chaparral

Tover26 said:


> So... update.
> 
> A lot has happened. We've moved. There have been epiphanies and setbacks, more of the first than the latter one I suppose. I'm having a problem though alluded to earlier, which is this: I'm falling out of love. I don't feel like I love her anymore. I feel like I'm going through the motions to buy time, to give things a chance, to buy time. When we kiss, nothing. When we have sex, nothing... it's getting hard for me to even be turned on. When we're together, nothing. And it's spilling over to how I feel about the kids as well like the growing distance and separation I feel with her is making me feel distant and separated from the kids.
> 
> Today was my last trip back "home" to grab the last few things from our old place for the new place and it was sooooo hard to actually come back here. I don't remember a falling out of love phase. Do you ever fall back in love? I remain committed to the time and healing process, but I continue to not see a future for myself.
> 
> It's a shame really because she seems to be sincerely trying. There's no way we'd have pulled this relocation off without her support, cooperation, and participation. I'd have keeled over long ago. But, when I think about it, I just get angry at all the hopes and dreams I thought were queuing up for this time, for this move to be a good thing... and while it has, it has turned from a "good thing for the family" into a "we've got to get away from the psychotic slasher lover".
> 
> They say that time heals all wounds, but when I look backwards I find that all my happy memories seem to have left and when I look forwards, I see my kids and wife happy but I'm not there. It's been almost 2 full months since DDay and I feel empty, spent, and broken. What do you do when love dies?


Can't honestly say but the books" Love Busters" and "His Needs Her Needs" is supposed to reignite your relationship. Give them a try.


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## aug

Tover26 said:


> So... update.
> 
> A lot has happened. We've moved. There have been epiphanies and setbacks, more of the first than the latter one I suppose. I'm having a problem though alluded to earlier, which is this: I'm falling out of love. I don't feel like I love her anymore. I feel like I'm going through the motions to buy time, to give things a chance, to buy time. When we kiss, nothing. When we have sex, nothing... it's getting hard for me to even be turned on. When we're together, nothing. And it's spilling over to how I feel about the kids as well like the growing distance and separation I feel with her is making me feel distant and separated from the kids.
> 
> Today was my last trip back "home" to grab the last few things from our old place for the new place and it was sooooo hard to actually come back here. I don't remember a falling out of love phase. Do you ever fall back in love? I remain committed to the time and healing process, but I continue to not see a future for myself.
> 
> It's a shame really because she seems to be sincerely trying. There's no way we'd have pulled this relocation off without her support, cooperation, and participation. I'd have keeled over long ago. But, when I think about it, I just get angry at all the hopes and dreams I thought were queuing up for this time, for this move to be a good thing... and while it has, it has turned from a "good thing for the family" into a "we've got to get away from the psychotic slasher lover".
> 
> They say that time heals all wounds, but when I look backwards I find that all my happy memories seem to have left and when I look forwards, I see my kids and wife happy but I'm not there. It's been almost 2 full months since DDay and I feel empty, spent, and broken. What do you do when love dies?



Appears you have reached the acceptance stage. 

At this time the feeling is not there, so now you need to decide if your marriage is worth saving or if you have a better future without a trustworthy wife.

Whatever you do now, do not have joint bank accounts, credit cards, loans, etc with your wife. Start hiding and protecting your assets from your wife.

Dont have (more) kids with your wife. That'll make everything messier.

This is what generally happens when a spouse cheats -- the marriage becomes worthless.


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## aug

Realize your wife has gone through this before. She wont be surprised if you divorce her.

She'll will not care because she survived before and she'll move on to another person (male or female).


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## sadcalifornian

Your feeling empty is pretty common. As a man, we tend to fight to claim what is ours. When our woman starts to pull away for another man, or a woman I guess, our instinct is to fight to reclaim her. But, when the dust finally settles, we often realize what we have fought so hard for is the spouse who has been disloyal and deceitful all those time. It makes you even wonder maybe you should have just let her go when you had the chance. 

You have every reason to end this marriage if you are truly unhappy in this relationship. Nobody will blame you if you come to that conclusion.


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## Shaggy

Man you really need some therapy to help you deal with your feelings on this. I think because she has not fully told the truth. That your having a lot of the problems you are because you are fearful of what the full truth is.

Don't move away and rug sweep or she WILL cheat again. You need to find out the full truth and administer real consequences to her, so that she knows there are consequences for cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TRy

Shaggy said:


> Rug sweeping is where you agree to move on with the marriage after an affair without her fully dealing with the fully knowing what went on and with who, and without her and you dealing with the why she did it.


Good start to defining rug sweeping, but you left out that rug sweeping is when you move on so fast that the cheater suffered little consequences for their infidelity. With little consequences they will be tempted to cheat again.


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## morituri

TRy said:


> Good start to defining rug sweeping, but you left out that rug sweeping is when you move on so fast that the cheater suffered little consequences for their infidelity. With little consequences they will be tempted to cheat again.


Consequences? Consequences don't force a person to change, they may temporarily put the fear of God into her/him but it is usually short lived. Only the willingness to be transparent, not born of fear of divorce but out of remorse, and the overwhelming desire to do the hard work of marital recovery. Any change born out of duress is short lived, but one that is born out of desire to become a better person for him/herself regardless of what happens to the marriage, is the only permanent and valid one.


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## TRy

morituri said:


> Consequences? Consequences don't force a person to change, they may temporarily put the fear of God into her/him but it is usually short lived. Only the willingness to be transparent, not born of fear of divorce but out of remorse, and the overwhelming desire to do the hard work of marital recovery. Any change born out of duress is short lived, but one that is born out of desire to become a better person for him/herself regardless of what happens to the marriage, is the only permanent and valid one.


Consequences does not mean just fear of divorce. Consequences includes suffering the pain that they caused a loved one which may lead them to feel remorse.


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## Tover26

morituri said:


> Consequences? ...Only the willingness to be transparent, not born of fear of divorce but out of remorse, and the overwhelming desire to do the hard work of marital recovery...


And there's the rub... why would anyone who sought to flee a marital situation by having an A do a 180 turnaround and want to do anything like this? The "overwhelming desire to go f*** someone else" seems to clash with the "overwhelming deisre to do the hard work of marital recovery". I wasn't worth it the first time, why - when suddenly caught and found out - would things change to this? I don't believe they do. The kind of change you're describing Morituri would take years of soul-searching for even a normal person to achieve.


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## morituri

TRy said:


> Consequences does not mean just fear of divorce. Consequences includes suffering the pain that they caused a loved one which may lead them to feel remorse.


Not saying that this can't happen but when it comes to people who often rewrite their marital history in order to justify their betrayal, seldom do they have the capacity to feel empathy for their LS, much less remorse.


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## morituri

Tover26 said:


> And there's the rub... why would anyone who sought to flee a marital situation by having an A do a 180 turnaround and want to do anything like this? The "overwhelming desire to go f*** someone else" seems to clash with the "overwhelming deisre to do the hard work of marital recovery". I wasn't worth it the first time, why - when suddenly caught and found out - would things change to this? I don't believe they do. The kind of change you're describing Morituri would take years of soul-searching for even a normal person to achieve.


For the sexual affair cheaters, the affair had been a compartmentalization issue that was separate from their married life. They SEEM to be the ones that easily want to reconcile and do the hard work because the affair was not so much a symptom of a failing marriage or a failing spouse. Contrast that with the cheaters who have an EA or a full blown affair where they blame their LS for their choosing to have the affair. These are the ones that often rewrite marital history and are more than willing to walk away from the marriage. So depending on the type of cheater you have, and whether or not the LS wants to reconcile, the odds of rebuilding the marriage are either good or bad.


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## Shaggy

Tover you post, but you don't say/reveal much.

What is the plan? Rug sweep or deal with it head on?


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## TRy

morituri said:


> Not saying that this can't happen but when it comes to people who often rewrite their marital history in order to justify their betrayal, seldom do they have the capacity to feel empathy for their LS, much less remorse.


No remorse equals no R. I am not saying that you will get remorse, but rug sweeping is not going to help your chances.


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## Tover26

Is buying time an option? My kids start school today in a brand new area, new school. One might get bumped down because our family life has been so messed up since about the time school started. The last thing I want to do is throw more chaos their way. Meanwhile, I'm on the brink of being fired unless I can pull my act together. I'm not sure rug-sweeping = buying time, but I'm not seeing a whole of good reasons to dive head first into divorce.

It's worth noting that this is my 2nd marriage. My first marriage ended with no kids when my first wife had an affair with her best friend's husband. About a year after that dv, I met my current wife and we've had a good run. The kids change things, a lot. I can see in myself a tendency to want to buy time because I know that with all that is going on right now, the stress of a dv will make it go from bad to really worser bad, for me, for her, for the kids. Without kids, I wouldn't even be posting here... I'd be long filed for dv. With kids, it's a lot more complicated. I want to see them thrive and I want to be around when they do awesome things.


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## Chaparral

Tover26 said:


> Is buying time an option? My kids start school today in a brand new area, new school. One might get bumped down because our family life has been so messed up since about the time school started. The last thing I want to do is throw more chaos their way. Meanwhile, I'm on the brink of being fired unless I can pull my act together. I'm not sure rug-sweeping = buying time, but I'm not seeing a whole of good reasons to dive head first into divorce.
> 
> It's worth noting that this is my 2nd marriage. My first marriage ended with no kids when my first wife had an affair with her best friend's husband. About a year after that dv, I met my current wife and we've had a good run. The kids change things, a lot. I can see in myself a tendency to want to buy time because I know that with all that is going on right now, the stress of a dv will make it go from bad to really worser bad, for me, for her, for the kids. Without kids, I wouldn't even be posting here... I'd be long filed for dv. With kids, it's a lot more complicated. I want to see them thrive and I want to be around when they do awesome things.


You have to be strong and do what youthink is the right thing for your whole family. If possible get yourself into counseling. If your convinced your wife wants to make it work also get into marriage counseling. That depends on getting a good counselor however.


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## Chaparral

If it hasn't already been suggested, read "Love Busters" and "His Needs Her Needs" many people have used these books to straighten out their marriages.


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## Shaggy

There are more options and rug sweep or divorce.

Is you wife willing to work on the marriage? Are you able to verify her affairs are over and she is out of contact with them?

Finding a marriage counselor who can help the two of you talk through your respective wants is a start.

Consequences don't always mean divorce. For starters her giving you full access to all her email etc, and her loosing "girls nights out" and secrecy are immediate consequences.


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## okeydokie

i guess i am different, i would be long gone in your situation. noway in hell i would try and reconcile with this woman.


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## morituri

okeydokie said:


> i guess i am different, i would be long gone in your situation. noway in hell i would try and reconcile with this woman.


Maybe but then again we don't know what it would be like to love children that are not biologically ours and not only risk never seeing them again but knowing they will suffer from our absence in their young lives.


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## southern wife

Tover26 said:


> Long post I know. Sorry. In the dv agreement, she gets the kids and I pay child support... but my wife needs to be stable as a person and in her sexual orientation before I'd feel safe letting our kids be with her. The OW is threatening to cut me and our kids (allegedly) since my wife broke up with her (alleged break up). I feel like until my wife is stable in why she cheated in the first place, she can't even begin to address the bi/lesbian and serial cheating question. Even if I someday believe that she lied to the OW about that stuff, I don't have it in me to do this again. If the final resolution is her coming out as a lesbian, it doesn't seem there's any point at all in belaboring our marriage - I just need to give her time to stabilize as a human and then we divorce. Anyone see anything else in this?


Have you thought that YOU can get the kids? It's totally possible! You need to save all the information that you have from FB and any other sources and show them to your atty. Your wife seems VERY unstable in who she is and in her life. The courts will want what is best for the children. I am in the belief that they will be better off, MUCH better off, with you. I wish you and the kids the best!


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## southern wife

Tover26 said:


> With kids, it's a lot more complicated. I want to see them thrive and I want to be around when they do awesome things.


Yes, kids do change everything. And you have to be there for them, no matter what. I have read through all your posts and I'm really sorry for your pain. I hope that you can find some sort of strength to get yourself together, maintain your job, and be there on ALL levels for your children. If you are suffering, they are suffering. Read up on the 180 and give it a shot. The 180 is all about you and getting yourself together. I think it's worth a shot at this point, for you and the kids.

I wish you the best!


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## Tover26

Thanks for the posts and support. Kids do change a lot. Without them, I'd be long gone too. With them, regardless of what I want, I keep finding that I want to be here to see what is going on in their lives. Even though there is a question now about why my wife married me and I will never understand or forgive whatever she told her lover that made her lover think they are not mine and I'm so stupid I never questioned it... I love them dearly. I guess at this point, if she were to trigger a divorce and insist on taking the kids I'd know they really weren't mine at all. 

I'm saving everything. Wife seems sincere but we have just too much stuff going on. I'm literally so strained for time, capacity, and energy that reading His Needs/Her Needs again, finding time for a counsellor, or talking to an attorney would break me to 1000s of pieces. All of that stuff sounds like good stuff to do when we are past moving and holding onto/losing my job. I was thinking about polygraph, drug, and paternity tests, but I can't afford those right now. Meanwhile, my wife seems to be following through on No Contact and genuinelly seems to want to reconcile... as you are all 100% aware, it's virtually impossible to gauge the sincerity of anything these crazy waywards do until you have the gift of time and hindsight. 

So, buying time. Consequences abound... she's not on the deed to our new house. I'm not a very fun person anymore even when I try I'm a bit cold and distant. Our conversations tend to be routine or very intense marital discussions. Money is tight, very tight. My health is messed up. Our kids had the worse grades they've ever had last semester. If I find time to go to a counsellor, it'll be discuss the fact that I see no hope, joy, or future these days. I have epilepsy and have been having seizures almost daily and can't risk taking antidepressants right now, but I know I need to have relief from somewhere. 

A friend owes us quite a lot of money that should be reimbursed in Dec. That'll give me some relief. House should be organized by then too with a renter in our old house. That'll give us all some relief. I'll either have a more stable job situation or a probable termination date by Christmas, both of which would be a relief in many ways. I've sent a letter to Santa asking him to bring me a large box of valium and about 3 weeks of time off from work and life.


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## warlock07

Just remember you might be reconciling with a pathalogical liar


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## morituri

Tover26 said:


> So, buying time.


So I take it that once conditions have improved enough you will be filing for divorce?


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## Tover26

I'm letting the apathy phase I'm in serve some good purpose and am trying to follow the 180 degree thing in your tag line Morituri. Not so much planning on a divorce as not planning on making any decisions about the actual affair until we have the gift of time and I can find some resolution on if she's actually a lesbian. If she's still in the closet, there's not even much point in trying.


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## morituri

Did you know that you are vulnerable to having an affair of your own unless you are vigilant in observing your marital boundaries?


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## Tover26

I'm really not. I'm more of a "don't get physically involved till I'm in love and able" to kind of guy. But, to your point, wouldn't it be true to say that anyone putting themselves at risk of an affair, could have an affair? I realize the situation is not ideal but with how much time I spend at work and then time spent with the kids, it'd be almost impossible. Now if I lost my job and started hanging out with attractive women all day who wanted me that way, I'd definitely be at risk. However, I'm sooooo much fun these days it'd be a miracle to find anyone like that.  I think the biggest risk I have right now is reconciling with a pathological liar first, a still-in-the-closet lesbian second, and finally I would say I'm at a risk of not being able to forgive and move past this assuming the first two points get addressed. 

My first marriage ended when my first wife had an affair with her friend's husband. I was separated for about a year and then didn't meet my current wife till about 4 months after the separation and divorce ended. It was a sunny day at church. Whodda thunk that 8/9 years later, this is where I'd be? Anyways, even when I began dating again, I had a very hard time doing the one date/speed date/casual date thing and it took a while before I even found someone I wanted to ask out. I felt like it was a never-ending gauntlet of blind dates and friends introducing me to single ladies. Maybe that sounds fun, but I felt tortured.

Thank you for your concern, but I'm not about to go out and have an affair of any kind.


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## Tover26

So, just an update, it's been just over 2 months since Dday. It appears I've pulled through the getting fired phase at work and have a better if still tenuous grasp on having a job. 2 weeks ago, I chewed my wife out for not following the NC component which was for her to let me know if there was contact and if there was not, to let me know that too. Since then, finally, she's been following it. I can't tell that there has been any contact, but how would I know? 

I asked her to retrieve her phone records and let me see them as paper printouts from her iPhone. They finally came. I knew they came. I asked her to just hand them over to me, but when they finally came, she ripped it open when I wasn't around and after 30 min I just asked her, "Hey, so your records arrived right? Do I need to give you an engraved invitation to let me see it?" She said she wanted to highlight the phone calls so I could easily see that she hadn't had any contact since DDay and I told her that was a bunch of bull**** because I'm perfectly capable of seeing the dates and recognizing her lover's tel#. It was for only 1 of the 3 months I asked for so she's going to get those too, I guess. I don't understand why it's so hard to do this. I mean, I understand it... she wanted to check and verify that there weren't a bunch of calls showing up after DDay, but still. That's not what I asked or she agreed to. I'm thinking this deserves a consequence but can't think of any that I care enough about to do. In talking about it with her, it also turns out also that her online affair partner called her in August, which she swears she told me about but when I questioned more she can't remember for how long, when, what they talked about etc. 

"How convenient that you remember telling me about it but can't remember any of the details..." I know how to find that guy online and will just chat it up with him. If she's not lying and nothing ever happened with them, it shouldn't freak the guy out at all to talk with me. Otherwise, I imagine he'll block me and vanish and that'll tell me lots and lots. 

Part of the phone record was the day before my job started - our anniversary interestingly enough - and she slept all day long, only rousing herself long enough to chew me out for not telling her when I was leaving for training, as I'd be gone for 3 nights. On my drive she called for 5 min and chewed me out some more. Looking at the phone record, she spent literally 4.5 hrs on the phone with her lover practically the instant I left till 1 am. And the next night was when my wife brought her home and they ****ed it up in the house. I think that our anniversary is pretty dead as a date to remember and be happy about. I struggle with the "why I care" question when things were already so bad at that point in time, but seeing this fresh brings up so much negativity. Looking at it, with my wife right there, it was really hard to keep my cool. I finally went and laid down on the couch and after a while of silence on her part, she left. We have the time out working really well... what with all my apathy and growing distance and her inability or decision to not do anything... I think our marriage has a survival rate of about 10% right now. I've been reading the 180 and the problem I'm having with it is that it's coming very naturally to me and when I get into that mode, it's hard to want to come home or even be with her. I'm pretty sure the intent of 180 is Reconciliation and Recovery right?


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## aug

radioclashx said:


> You don't have to reread the Dr. Harley Books, just go to the Marriage Builders website and read all the free articles on surviving infidelity, and also posts on the support forums. They recommend plan A/B. You might want to post about your situation on a forum there and let those people help you too.



Is the marriage builders website getting desperate for visitors? Looks like you're promoting the site in your postings.


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## Shaggy

Tover,

I'm sorry you're still getting so much lack of commitment from her.

Other than dragging her feet sharing details, is she putting effort into you and the relationship? Is she emotionally and physically showing energy for you, or is she dragging there too?

She should be putting in 110% at this point, begging to get your to keep her. If she's not, then I think her actions are showing her words to be cheat talk.

btw. Have you asked her to account for the anniversary call? Ask her to explain just WTF she thinks you should feel and do over that?


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## lordmayhem

aug said:


> Is the marriage builders website getting desperate for visitors? Looks like you're promoting the site in your postings.


:iagree:

I had the same thought. He seems to be shilling for them in almost every post, just like this other guy who was shilling for the BAN website.


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## lordmayhem

Why can't you just sync her iPhone to your computer and check the back up logs? You should be able to get into any deleted emails and text messages.

And the 180 is not for Reconciliation or Recovery. Why do so many people misinterpret this despite everyone explaining what it is. It's not a tool for manipulation. It's not a tool for getting your spouse back. Once again, *the 180 is a SELF EMPOWERMENT* tool, it helps you gain strength, helps minimize your co-dependency, so that *you will be able to move on, WITH OR WITHOUT your spouse*.


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## Tover26

I've tried. It doesn't work that way and her iPhone conveniently "broke" about the time of DDay. She has yet to synch her new replacement phone up with iTunes... and mysteriously, the replacement phone is "broken" now too. Heavy sigh. 

On other fronts, there is an update. The online thing in my original post has turned out to be a 7 month online incredibly sexual affair with mutual masturbation, pictures, videos, and plans to meet up, get married, sighs. The best part of it all is that 2 hours before this all came out she sent me a wonderful 5 page email explaining that there were no more secrets, no more lies... I wonder if she copied it off some kind of infidelity recovery forum? I had talked to the online guy in Singapore and knew there was more more and when I confronted her, she melted down. The problem is that there are at least 2 more things I know about that she hasn't fessed up to yet. 

180 right? Time to move on. Shaggy, just for you. Consequences. I deleted all of the sexy pictures we've shared in our marriage. I told her that each day she doesn't come clean, I'm going to disconnect another aspect of our relationship. Today was one of the best days I've had at work. I feel like I have a plan now. I feel like there's a timetable at play now that I have some influence and control over.


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## Shaggy

At this point just tell all the things you know and that you have no more emotional patience left. None, she's taken you down to your core. Tell that your moving on unless she finally comes clean, and then schedule that polygraph finally.

You deserve to see an end in sight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tover26

Update... turbulent times. Sunday, her cell phone bill arrived. I saw it. I gave it to her. She was supposed to give it back to me so I could open it and see things for myself. She did not. When I confronted her about it 30 min later, she had already poured through it and gave me some lame ass excuse about how she was going to highlight all of her calls to her female lover. A number of red flags went off. A month prior, I had contacted her online "friend" and learned quite a lot about where things had gone with them. I had no idea how deep that abyss went. 

She had Monday off and spent 4+ hrs writing an elegant and loving email to me about sincere remorse and reconciliation. I think she got it off SI. It was full of lies and was ultimately an elegant attempt to game me into not noticing what I already knew. I didn't confront her. I just told her I knew she was lying and my patience, as Shaggy would say "is empty to the core". Tuesday a bit more came out. Wednesday a bit more came out. But after Sunday, I told her that each day of ongoing lies would result in something being disconnected. Thursday I texted her and begged her to do something brave, to own up to something I didn't already know about, to give me something in her brave enough to love. She came home and showed me a secret email account she shared with this guy. It was Master/Slave fetish with him giving her instructions and her obeying by making videos. If you can imagine it, she did it. Besides all the lame ass stuff waywards do in a normal affair though, this one went over and above on several points. I'm not going to elaborate them here. Interestingly, any and all pics, vids, and/or contact info from him was missing. It turns out my Dday for the lesbian had been wargamed between her and him as part of her slave pledge. For any of you not knowing what that is, google it. In a nutshell, she took her wedding dress and a pic of our family from our wedding day and while begging her Master to own her heart, body, soul, and sex forever, she stripped off her dress dancing for him and then masturbated while pledging herself as his *****slave for all time and eternity. She then took her ring off, finished the video, sent it to him, and then they had online sex for 5+ hrs. Nutshell over. 

I'm really struggling with all the references (850+ emails from her to him and maybe 50+ back... and that's just the 1 email account, they also used 3 video sharing systems, 5 different chat systems, normal text and phone, and had different code words worked out to verify that I had stumbled across their accounts) to "I love you" and "you are truly my soulmate" coupled to complete plans for him to come out and add her to his stable. I read this and I feel it went beyond FOG. 

I'm really struggling with the systematic renouncing of wedding vows. I mean, I get that the As basically mean that it never mattered anyways, but vows and commitments are kind of important to me. Her last contact was 2 days ago when she finally wrote a NC letter that didn't start off with an apology for having to do this to him. The struggle is that I feel like I am with another man's property now and beyond the normal A stuff, I'm struggling with how/why I would have fallen in love with someone that wanted to be treated like chattel in the first place. It's really messing me up. 

We have a polygraph scheduled for the next 2 ways, date pending. We get up to 6 questions and subquestion themes; it'll last 3 hours. She has agreed that if she fails, she will abandon the family long enough for me to file divorce based on abandonment, at which time, I will allow her to have shared custody with the kids based on certain conditions. I have agreed that if she passes, I will accept that there isn't anymore and will delay a more formal divorce to try and reconcile against the mountain of issues we now have. 

She was kind enough to share my emails with him so he has all my account info and is sending me emails about how much I suck.


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## bryanp

I am so sorry for you. I do not think there is a need for you to spend money on a polygraph. She has humiliated and disrespected you in such a sick way. She is mentally ill. Please contact a lawyer and divorce her as soon as possible. She is absolutely toxic to you and will drag you down with her if you stay. Good luck.


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## aug

bryanp said:


> I am so sorry for you. I do not think there is a need for you to spend money on a polygraph. She has humiliated and disrespected you in such a sick way. She is mentally ill. Please contact a lawyer and divorce her as soon as possible. She is absolutely toxic to you and will drag you down with her if you stay. Good luck.


I agree. The polygraph could be a waste of time and money. She has admit to many things. Arent any of her admissions sufficient for divorce or, alternatively, serious IC?


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## Shaggy

I'm so sorry for you.

but save the polygraph money. She's no longer worth it.

take away money she has, take away any clothes you bought her, take everything she has from you. She gave herself to him, and she renounced her vows. At that moment she gave away you and her family.

Stop hanging on. Offer to drive her to the red light district and drop her off, she can earn her new living there. She'll probably like it, by the sounds of how sick she is.

Honestly, this is one of most hideous stories I've ever heard here.

-- check for keyloggers etc on you PC he may have had her install them there. you should also afterward change all your passwords everwhere.

You should also check your finances etc, he may have been having her send him your money as well.

Oh, and burn the bed. She's likely done some nasty there, and you don't want to be sleep in it any longer.

Wow. 

Has she told you who he is? Can you go after him some how? Either his GF/Wife, or but publically outing him to his neighbors, and coworkers? 

I don't know record her confession about it and mail it these people.

Pure scum bags like him, and the twisted sick disturbed woman like your wife - deserve to outed from normal society. Just pure sickness.



Let the loser have her. she's so hideous, an ass like him deserves her.


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## Shaggy

You might ask for your wedding ring back. Or did she send it to the POSOM since he owns her now?


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## Sindo

Wow. 

Most cheaters come up with some form of twisted justification for infidelity. I would love to hear hers. Did she say anything about what the **** was going on in her mind?

How long has this been going on? 

I understand that the main reason you are staying is for the kids, but you'd be fully justified in divorcing her at any time. Keep a copy of that video, it could come in handy later.


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## Shaggy

I think you should make her go see a psychiatrist before you let her see the kids every again. Someone like her shouldn't be around kids until she gets serious professional help.


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## morituri

You have my condolences.

I hope that you pushed for professional counseling because she is in bad need of it whether you divorce her or not. The children need a mentally and emotionally healthy mother and right now they don't have one. Married or divorce, she must commit to becoming a healthy woman for her children's sake.


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## sadcalifornian

Wow, is this story for real? So unbelievable.

You forcing her to take poly means you are giving R a chance. Assuming she pass the poly, I hope she's worth keeping. 

I would expose these details to inlaws so that she should truly realize the utter ugliness of her actions in the midst of her humiliation having to explain all this to her mom and dad. Yet, if she is still willing to accept her fault and beg to come back, then I would consider maybe.


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## Shaggy

If she leaves, you must not let the children stay around her - the stuff she is into is a real threat to them. One of her sicko friends could easily be a pedophile, druggie, who knows what. No kids should ever be exposed to that sick stuff.

--

any chance this is all a game he is playing through her? Having her "come clean", as a way to humliate her and prove herself to him?

Perhaps she's still connecting with him and being directed by him.

- time to find him and share the love first hand.


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## Sindo

Man... You know what this means? All those consequences you've been imposing... She's probably digging that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sadcalifornian

Sindo said:


> Man... You know what this means? All those consequences you've been imposing... She's probably digging that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess, tying her up and whipping her might not work as punishment here.


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## NotLikeYou

Shaggy said:


> I'm so sorry for you.
> 
> .


You know that old saying about "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me?" I think that totally fits this situation.

While all infidelity is bad, there is quite a degree of difference between "wife got drunk and had a one night stand with a stranger," and

"wife had a lesbian affair, also had an online slave affair, both long duration, plus probably some other crap you don't know about."

But at some point, it gets ludicrous to even try. Tover, you are well past the point of ridiculous. 

Betrayal by someone you thought loved you is a terrible blow, and people handle it different ways. But, really, do you have any limit as to how much betrayal and abuse you will accept? 

Why are you even wasting your time with a polygraph? Are you hoping that the test will reveal that not only is she lying about having cheated on you with other men and women, but that also all the physical proof you have is a pile of lies too? Do you think the examiner is going to come to you and say "Great news! Your wife lied! She didn't really screw around on you!"

She doesn't love you. She doesn't like you. She doesn't even respect you as much as she would a dog. If she respected you, she would at least tell you the truth and be working a lot harder to keep you. If she liked you, she wouldn't be masturbating for another man over the internet. If she loved you, she wouldn't be scissoring with her girlfriend. 

You will get not a single ounce of anything good out of all the effort you put into this relationship. Everything you do is wasted. The sooner you walk away and forget about this damaged human being whom you accidentally shared your heart with, the sooner you will begin to get better in life.


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## Shaggy

sadcalifornian said:


> I guess, tying her up and whipping her might not work as punishment here.


It work better if ties her up and refuses to whip her.


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## sadcalifornian

Shaggy said:


> It work better if ties her up and refuses to whip her.


Wow, never thought of that.


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## Shaggy

I was thinking about things you can do to the POSOM which I see now is really behind so much of what she's done.

Get her to make a video clip laughing at the POSOM, belittling him, telling him she played him, and used him, and that she's so happy that she's got her "big" hubby taking care of her needs. She should focus on calling him little boy, and pathetic in the clip. If he's into being mr. tough dom guy this will hurt him.

You might also post on places like FetLife about him. It's a board for folks into that, and they take a dim view of jerks like him. Have her out him there, and it will make it hard for him to hook other stupid slaves in. 

Make sure to mention all his code words back to him too, it will show to him that he's lost his edge and his secrets are out.


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## Shaggy

sadcalifornian said:


> Wow, never thought of that.


Nothing takes the wind out of BSDM sails faster than laughing at it and calling it stupid. The true practitioners take themselves way too serious.


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## Chaparral

"Interestingly, any and all pics, vids, and/or contact info from him was missing. It turns out my Dday for the lesbian had been wargamed between her and him as part of her slave pledge."

Since everything about him has been deleted , it sounds like you're still being gamed. Iwould give a lot of thought about taking this to the police. Plus he is now harassing you.


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## Shaggy

Tover26 said:


> Well, we're moving 2.5 hours away next weekend. That'll put us away from her lovers and past. I hope we get a chance to start over again and have some time to work things out. I can't sleep still and while my concentration has improved from seconds to minutes, it's not enough for work and I'm in disciplinary review. Big f'ing sigh.
> 
> My wife appears to be sincerely trying but I feel like I'm in a stage where I'm noticing but apathetic and I'm not feeling a lot of love, just pressure to fall back in love and move on. I think it's a bad thing when you see everything though a bleak and despairing lense but sincere efforts after all of this and I'm realizing I might have fallen out of love. I don't remember a "falling out of love" phase in the recovery phases you go through after an affair. NC seems intact. But I just can't bring myself to do a keylogger... it seems counterpurposed to falling in love and rebuilding trust.
> 
> I feel we've made good progress on trust. Not so much on being in love.


Tover,

How's that trust coming along at this point? It really sounds like you're still being played here - or do you think this is genuine?

A couple of questions:

1- how did you pick the place you moved to? Could it be close to the OM?

2 - does the OM know your new location? If so they've been in contact still

3- Why does she still have a cell phone where she controls the bill or the apps? I would think that she should have one that can make calls, text, and nothing else, and that you control the bill so you can see who she is calling by going on line.

4- Are you still not going VAR and keylogger?

5- have you checked your PC for keylogger from him?

6- have you changes ALL your passwords?


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## Tover26

Fast and furious... let me try to tackle these:
1. Is this serious? Unfortunately, yes. I'm reluctant to post their emails or videos here as it would be counter to all of our healing. But yes, yes it is serious. No games. I'm not making this stuff up. I couldn't dream this stuff up if my life depended on it. 
2. Out her to in-laws. I can't. She went to them and told them all about how I was fighting with her, hurting her, monitoring her... typical FOG talk (and for the record there was no hurting or monitoring AT ALL; I am not like that). I have severed all contact with her family and as I find out others who may have enabled and supported this, I will continue to do so. 
3. I am not going to be that kind of guy who do the keylogger... I don't need it. I have all the emails and proof I need for self-protection already and she has agreed that if she fails the polygraph, she will abandon the family until an abandonment-based divorce is complete. 
4. The guy is in Singapore... so no real threat there. He's a low level office worker or something. I know where he is. His name. His tel#. His company. He's not an actual fetishist, just someone able to research online. However, my wife's behavior was what it was. 
5. Share the love with him... LOL. Yes, I'd like that. It's so very tempting, but I don't want to be that kind of a guy. It is my choice to NOT retaliate. His harrassment follows the NC letter my wife sent him 2 days ago. His language suggests that her breaking ties with him was in point of fact, not wargamed and he is testing me to see if he got under my skin. He did not. My wife did. People like that... it'll circle back on him. I don't plan on putting a single ounce of energy into him when I finish this sentence.
6. Why am I still here? 1) I love her still. If she passes, I will open myself to reconciliation, but there was originally the issue of Lesbian/BI orientation, serial cheating, and then the actual Affair. Now we get to deal with Master/Slave fetish and drugs. Weeeeeee... I'm 100% confident there is more yet to come... don't they always save the absolute worst for last? 2) I used to be married and without kids, when that very religious woman cheated, I divorced her because she couldn't follow through on NC, sincere apology, or anything and after 6 months of IC/MC I pulled the plug and have never looked back. That divorce almost killed me and that was without kids. I know how bad divorce is and that alone is enough of an incentive for me to at least try. 3) Even though I'm disconnecting from the kids around the paternity issue, none of this is fair to them and they deserve at least one parent that loves them... I can't stop disconnecting from them if I'm gone and sick as it was, an online affair isn't going to sway a divorce court around the custody issue... 4) I guess I'm choosing to try and help my wife salvage herself before I make any grand decisions about whether I divorce or stay. There is another option I'm thinking about too but we don't talk about that on this forum.
7. Wedding ring and other things... have been locked in a vault and will be remade into pendants and earrings and given to the kids when I die or when they graduate high school... whichever comes first. I'm never giving her a ring... if she feels she wants one she can go buy one. I'm not wearing mine since this second DDay and even if we R, I don't think I'll ever put it back on. We also threw away about $4,000 worth of stuff that was so prominently featured in her sex videos that I can't stand to even think of them and besides now being triggers... they actually are either making me vomit or triggering seizures. 

Thanks everyone. I get 6 questions on the polygraph. Want to help?


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## Shaggy

Wait, step back a couple.

Paternity issue?

Drugs?

I missed that part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

If you are going to try and make it work for your kids sake and because youlove her , more power to you. Good luck and I hope all your hardwork pays off for your family.

IC for you both, to fix/heal her and to heal yourself and MC obviously. There are several, highly recommended, books explaining how relationships fall apart and how to pull them back together. 

Good luck. If this is what you want ,jump in with both feet and disregard the flames I expect you"re about to get.


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## Sindo

Tover26 said:


> 2. Out her to in-laws. I can't. She went to them and told them all about how I was fighting with her, hurting her, monitoring her... typical FOG talk (and for the record there was no hurting or monitoring AT ALL; I am not like that). I have severed all contact with her family and as I find out others who may have enabled and supported this, I will continue to do so.


Do the inlaws know about the affair? Did she gaslight them? If so, I think you are in a position to get her to make this right. Probably not a good idea to come clean about the whole Master/Slave thing - in fact the less detail the better. But she should acknowledge to her family that she had sexual relations outside marriage.




Tover26 said:


> Thanks everyone. I get 6 questions on the polygraph. Want to help?


Are you still a slave?

or alternatively

Do you still feel you belong to OM?


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## lordmayhem

Normally I'm all for investigating, monitoring, polygraphs, but I'm completely blown away by the updates since I last visited this thread. Wow!

I agree with NotLikeYou, she respects a dog more than she does you. It's not just disrespect for you and the marriage, she obviously feels utter contempt for you. 

Forget the polygraph.

Forget the VARs.

Forget the monitoring.

I feel that she's damaged beyond redemption as far as your marriage is concerned. She needs professional help for her sickness and depravity. She will not ever stop. She TTs you to this very day. Like I said, very damaged. I'd give you some suggestions about the questions about the polygraph, but its simply a waste of time and money at this point. That money for the polygraph should instead be used to lawyer up.


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## Initfortheduration

:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Tover26

What is TTs?

On the one hand, you're all for investigating, but it's time to stop? I think I'm addicted to it right now... in some ways it's the only thing that is keeping me going. That, and the kids, who deserve so much better. As much as I'd love to walk away, for all the reasons cited, I can't until the kids are as safe as I can get them. 

She went to her first counselling session. It was a joint marital one and I didn't go. It was interesting listening to her describe the MC's reactions to just her personal history. Tomorrow she begins church counselling and I pray she isn't just wasting everyone's time in that regard. I'd imagine that soon she'll start IC. I love how expensive and time consuming it all becomes. To my original posts... as priorities:
1. Safety of the kids is #1.
2. She needs clarity around the in-closet lesbian thing or she has a whole ****load of pain ahead in her life.
3. She needs clarity around orientation in general, and her cheating specifically. 
4. She has to answer for relapsing on drugs during the summer and all the Slave crap before I'll ever feel the kids are safe with her. 

I spoke with polygraph group yesterday and they don't feel they'll be able to help because either we'll clarify "what isn't a lie" that is already known, or we won't... he said, "It's not a truth finder, it's a lie detector. Think about what that means. The person has to be asked questions that are directed at LIES, not at uncovering truth. The further you deviate, the less accurate the test is." 

Passing time in Virginia. Cheers.


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## sadcalifornian

TT means trickle truth. Instead of fully confessing, often WW reveals bits of truth at a time. 

I am shocked at the response from the polygraph group. The questions can be construed in such way you can verify the truth. Although I am not an expert in this field, I think there might have been some miscommunication there? Is there another polygrapher in your area you can contact?


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## Shaggy

Is the problem that her stuff is so messed up that she is too messed up personally for the polygraph to work on her? Meaning her lie truth morals are so twisted it won't work?

Or ie it that the questions you are looking for are too general and not yes-no answers?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enginerd

Tover26 said:


> So, just an update, it's been just over 2 months since Dday. It appears I've pulled through the getting fired phase at work and have a better if still tenuous grasp on having a job. 2 weeks ago, I chewed my wife out for not following the NC component which was for her to let me know if there was contact and if there was not, to let me know that too. Since then, finally, she's been following it. I can't tell that there has been any contact, but how would I know?
> 
> I asked her to retrieve her phone records and let me see them as paper printouts from her iPhone. They finally came. I knew they came. I asked her to just hand them over to me, but when they finally came, she ripped it open when I wasn't around and after 30 min I just asked her, "Hey, so your records arrived right? Do I need to give you an engraved invitation to let me see it?" She said she wanted to highlight the phone calls so I could easily see that she hadn't had any contact since DDay and I told her that was a bunch of bull**** because I'm perfectly capable of seeing the dates and recognizing her lover's tel#. It was for only 1 of the 3 months I asked for so she's going to get those too, I guess. I don't understand why it's so hard to do this. I mean, I understand it... she wanted to check and verify that there weren't a bunch of calls showing up after DDay, but still. That's not what I asked or she agreed to. I'm thinking this deserves a consequence but can't think of any that I care enough about to do. In talking about it with her, it also turns out also that her online affair partner called her in August, which she swears she told me about but when I questioned more she can't remember for how long, when, what they talked about etc.
> 
> "How convenient that you remember telling me about it but can't remember any of the details..." I know how to find that guy online and will just chat it up with him. If she's not lying and nothing ever happened with them, it shouldn't freak the guy out at all to talk with me. Otherwise, I imagine he'll block me and vanish and that'll tell me lots and lots.
> 
> Part of the phone record was the day before my job started - our anniversary interestingly enough - and she slept all day long, only rousing herself long enough to chew me out for not telling her when I was leaving for training, as I'd be gone for 3 nights. On my drive she called for 5 min and chewed me out some more. Looking at the phone record, she spent literally 4.5 hrs on the phone with her lover practically the instant I left till 1 am. And the next night was when my wife brought her home and they ****ed it up in the house. I think that our anniversary is pretty dead as a date to remember and be happy about. I struggle with the "why I care" question when things were already so bad at that point in time, but seeing this fresh brings up so much negativity. Looking at it, with my wife right there, it was really hard to keep my cool. I finally went and laid down on the couch and after a while of silence on her part, she left. We have the time out working really well... what with all my apathy and growing distance and her inability or decision to not do anything... I think our marriage has a survival rate of about 10% right now. I've been reading the 180 and the problem I'm having with it is that it's coming very naturally to me and when I get into that mode, it's hard to want to come home or even be with her. I'm pretty sure the intent of 180 is Reconciliation and Recovery right?



I'm sorry for your troubles and I can't imagine how it feels to be you, but I think you're still in denial. Unfortunately your marriage was over when your wife had a lesbian affair with an unstable person (if that's true). Your wife shows extremely bad judgement and clearly she's a impulsive, immature and selfish person. In my opinion these types of individuals cannot be changed. The best thing you can do is move close to your kids and begin a new life. You should also evaluate who you are attracted to and why. I think you are a person who may not be able to evaluate someones character accurately or you're so needy that you rationalize away all the red flags. It could also be a little of both. Now you have the experience and you should be able to see that a spouse must be first trustworthy before you can love them. Its totally natural and healthy to be falling out of love with such a dishonest person. If you said that everything is great now I would begin to doubt your honestly or mental health. You have been majorly hurt from this disaster (as I would have been) and its time to work on yourself so you can be strong for children at a later date. Start thinking short term pain for long term gain. Your children need a strong loving father but that is not possible in your current situation.

Best Wishes


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## aug

Tover26 said:


> ... I've been reading the 180 and the problem I'm having with it is that it's coming very naturally to me and when I get into that mode, it's hard to want to come home or even be with her. *I'm pretty sure the intent of 180 is Reconciliation and Recovery right?*




No, not really -- if I understand it correctly. The 180 is for your benefit only. It's there to protect your mental health and thus, your physical health. It's there to allow you to navigate yourself through the turmoils with a clearer head.

The reconciliation may be a by-product of your 180 effort.


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## Tover26

She's at the polygraph now. After talking to that last guy and my post on this topic, I think she decided to do it as a way of proving that at least there weren't other affairs, or something. I'm not sure as to why, or what it is going to prove. I'll put up the questions and answers here when I get them, if I get them. The issue is the intent. There's no point asking the question "Did you have an affair?" if you already know the answer is yes. What you cannot ask is "Do you love...?" or, as Shaggy suggests, the morals are so messed up it ALL becomes subjective. I do know that she really freaked out when I called at the last minute with the question I wanted to put in... "In July, did you make a 15 minute + video and send it to NAME renouncing your marriage?" She called me and was hyperventilating and I just said, "Look, what's the point in taking a lie detector test if you're the only one putting in questions that you already know the truth of... all it proves is that you're manipulating me still... so either call me with a different flavor of that very question or be prepared for me to give zero credence to your taking this test at a time when I conveniently am at work in meetings."

Meanwhile, I'm trying to hold on to OS bars on this beltless roller coaster. Thank you for the responses. It's a bit of a bummer that no one is expressing hope but I understand. BTW, if some of you have wondered, I think she has found this thread and so I've been somewhat vague in earlier posts, but I'm going to stop now. What's the point? She's found it. And for the record, I did not, have not, and never would even think of beating, torturing, or doing any of the things referenced in this email I just received. 

______________________________________

Her online lover is emailing me since she sent him a NC letter last week. I thought I'd put up his latest response, I'm kind of leaning towards not fighting with a young 20ish guy in Singpore. Seems like a waste of my life. Now, before you read this, I have to say that I'm inclined to think that this is her lover having a bad reaction and he's trying to manipulate me to see if he got under my skin. He didn't. My wife did. I have to say there's a certain karmic irony to the world if he does in fact send her videos to these people... and yes, he got all their names and addresses correct. I don't know how he got my email account. 

:scratchhead: Her online lover's latest email... "I despise you. I hate you. You make me sick. Oh yes, she told me all about you. How you cry. How you eat. How you make her do all things. How you hurt her. How you trap her. How you cry like a baby when you do not get your very own way. How you collapse asleep after she rocks your world like how only I KNOW she can and did more than I wish but still, she needed time to come to grips with what a ****ing **** you are NAME of PLACE. Oh yes, I know you. I know all about you. I know all about WIFE'S NAME too. You hide now. Boo hoo. Hide. Hide. Hide. All you want, I will keep finding you. 

How is this? I know you made her do a lie detector. What kind of sick **** are you? You could have just forgotten and moved on. She does not want you. She never did. Oh? She did not tell you. She told me. I have about 10 hrs worth of video from her where she tells me her dreams, her wants, how to make her happy, what makes her tick, who she is, who she wishes and wants to be. I was her husband because you are so weak. It sickens me that I had to be you for her sake emotionally, sexually, and as a partner because you were too busy beating your daughters. She told me how you cry and are weak, so many times she says that.

But no. 

You want games. You want to play? Okay. Lets play fat crybaby. Every day you cannot have her call me on Facetime or Palringo and PROVE she is alone, I will email one of her special videos to someone but will wait so you cringe when the phone rings. Maybe you! How about other people? No? Oh what now Man who cannot live without someone loving his sick ego? I know you FULL NAME. So easy to find you and even without it, WIFE told me it all, either straight up or emailed me or gave me enough to know. Maybe I send your mother FULL NAME one of WIFE'S special videos where she talks about them or tells me about how you are with her?She loves me. I love her. Get out of here you sick ****er! Stop hurting and torturing her. 

You do not know who she is. Or probably I send a special story about you to HER FATHER at her address there in PLACE? 

You do not seem able to fight for this woman, so I will help you fight. Have her call me. She knows how. She can tell me herself what she wants done. If I hear her say anything sounding like you, I will email everyone I know in your lives some of her videos. I especially like thinking of your and her parents getting this one I just watched. It is hot. I ****ed her during that video. You cannot see it in the video because it just her moaning and screaming my name but I am in her mind, ****ing her to cum and cum and cum. The best part is when she licks her fingers and you see how hot she is, dripping hot off her fingers, just from performing for me and giggles. You ever see her do that for you? 



No - because she does not love you ****er. You ruined her life NAME Fat ***** Momma Boy. She loves me. Since you will not allow me to school you in how to treat a wife, I will take her as mine and give her all she wants, all she ever needed, and you can go **** yourself. Just kill yourself already and save the world your ego trip and die ****er. I hate you. Give her to me or her videos go to your parents, her brother, everyone. No more games ****. HER BROTHER'S NAME, HER FATHER'S NAME, STEP MOTHER'S NAME, MOTHER'S MAIDEN NAME, MY PARENT'S NAMES at ADDRESS in Maryland, and I can keep going. She told me everything as part of getting ready for a happy life free of your torture. 

Maybe this email gives you nightmares? More crying fat man? I suppose for fun we could do another. Go have a seizure and die and send me a video of her urinating on you while begging me (she knows how to beg deliciously, want proof?) to leave you alone and spare your pathetic life.



Sent from my iPhone"


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## StrangerThanFiction

This thread is now much much stranger than fiction.

You need to somehow escape this bizarre world you are currently in and begin healing yourself. How will you ever get the image of her wearing her wedding dress renouncing you to the other man?? I just don't understand.


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## Shaggy

Since you know who this idiot is, I think you have a couple options to condider:

A. Post his contact info, as he says you wife has it, on a number of website such as 4channel and invite the kids there to have fun with him.

B. deal with him legally in the US for his threats and blackmail attempts. You might very likely get him labelled as someone who should not be allowed to come to the US.mit might make his life a little less fun down the road .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

Leave about you, He even thinks that your wife is a piece of sh!t or even worse. How was she begging him and making sex videos all this time? Please leave this marriage for your sanity. She is really facked up and definitely beyond your scope of help. Even with therapy it might take atleast 10 years for everything to be normal. Do you have such time?Please save yourself from mental anguish. You may lose a couple of years but find someone who you live the "rest of your life" with


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## Chaparral

Shaggy said:


> Since you know who this idiot is, I think you have a couple options to condider:
> 
> A. Post his contact info, as he says you wife has it, on a number of website such as 4channel and invite the kids there to have fun with him.
> 
> B. deal with him legally in the US for his threats and blackmail attempts. You might very likely get him labelled as someone who should not be allowed to come to the US.mit might make his life a little less fun down the road .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I like it. As far as his email goes, after a first look , its really pathetically weak. If I couldn't answer a pathetic weirdo better than what he wrote, I would walk in front of a bus.
I be t the the only women he can get is fantasty role playing on the internet because thats all he has done. Naughty yes, pitiful yes, plus he is so jealous. Ask him if he wants to see what your wife does with a real man. Tell him she gets off more on her girl friend than him. 

Sorry man, don't get me started.:rofl::lol::sleeping:

Sorry your not getting much support. I like people who don't give up and try to fix things. Go for it and good luck. Any one can quit. Just be a leader.

One thing, how did he know she was going to a polygraph test?


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## Shaggy

I hope one of the poly questions is " is she still contacting wannabe Dom?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Unsure in Seattle

I especially like that he threatens someone he supposedly loves to hurt YOU. Scum.

Dunno about the whole polygraph thing. They are unreliable and largely pointless, IMO.

You do need to be sure she's no longer in contact with this d!ckbag.

Probably time to change your contact info, as well.


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## Tover26

Okay, so... even TAM has a lot of misinformation about polygraphs. Her experience and, later I talked to the guy, are completely different than anything I've seen posted here. How so:

1. You can pick a topic, in this case, she did two: drug use and infidelity. 
2. Each topic is comprised of a set of questions aimed at ferreting out a baseline against which a "lie" can be detected. Example: Is your name XYZ? Did you have any sexual contact with anyone besides your husband between these ages? Etc. 
3. There is a 60 sec pause in between each question. They polygrapher asks as many questions as they have to to a) get a baseline, b) bury the "real" question set in so many tangents and directions that you can measure that vs the baseline, and c) to give the person time to calm down enough to get and maintain a "OMG I'm taking a polygraph!" level of stress filtered out of the readings. 
4. So... no specific questions and nothing about intent. Lots of related questions like, "Have you ever told a lie for the purpose of hurting someone you loved?"

My wife was so stressed out that the polygrapher, was happy to take her money and offer to another paid session, but basically the whole thing was a wash and waste of time with a big reading on Infidelity: Inconclusive, Drugs: Inconclusive. 

More drama today, but I'm having a hard time seeing a personal downside... basically, he is saying that if she doesn't contact him and prove she's alone so they can talk in private, he's going to email one of her videos to her/my parents, or someone in the family circle... at random. My wife almost had a psychotic fit when she read it, he had bcc'd her on his email to me. I see a lot of justice in her father getting such a video of his daughter after she went to him for help and he basically told her to follow her heart and indulge in the affair. It also saves me the awkward cover up of lying and keeping secrets to avoid damaging family ties should we possibly reconcile. 

And, yes. The guy is pathetic. I think he's trying to goad me into revealing how much I know about him. Given that he's changed emails 3x and emailed me what? 8x now>.... I'd say that my nonresponsiveness is interfering with his life and there's a certain ironic justice to how my wife's own sex videos might get mailed to her dad. I think I'm just going to sit back on this roller coaster ride and watch this one play out. No rescue. No caring. Just watch and see how it goes. I've already warned my parents as I doubt they want to see my wife sexually gyrating while trash talking me, herself, and it seems probable that there are references to me as a big fat momma's boy etc.


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## morituri

Get some hot buttered pop-corn, a lawn chair and just wait for the family fireworks to light up the nightly sky.


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## HelloooNurse

As someone with power issues myself (which the OM obviously has.. big time) and coming from a family who all have this issue, I have two suggestions in relation to his vile emails that will both infuriate him to no end AND stop him responding to you.

1. Something that they really hate is if you say a short sentence that has connotations attached to it, but isn't actually saying anything wrong. But the connotations imply that they are a weak, pathetic person. THAT is the bit that will drive them mad - power issue people are extremely sensitive on that front. Their mind will go crazy trying to work out exactly what it is you are saying, but they know it has something to do with being weak. The only thing I can come up with right now, is "I win. You lose, little man.  " And make sure to put the smiley face on the end because it has a very good slap-in-the-face effect, and also implies that their behaviour does not affect you, and they REALLY hate that. I would advise that after you do this, block him because he will likely go off his head and send you dozens of emails trying to challenge you, so its best to just cut him off right from the word go. The silence will kill him.

or

2. Don't reply whatsoever. Just block the guy. Another thing these types of people just CAN'T STAND is when their behaviour does not even affect you at all. They write all these elaborate emails trying to "put you in your place" and when you don't "bite", it drives them up the wall. I'm not sure why this is but I have seen it in action in my family many a time.

I'm thinking morally number 2 would be better (and certainly easier) and I'm sure it's the best way to go. But if you are like me and would like to put the boot in before you ignore him, I would say go number 1. And definitely don't read anymore of the crap he sends you! He wants to get under your skin - don't let him.


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## lordmayhem

Tover26 said:


> On the one hand, you're all for investigating, but it's time to stop? I think I'm addicted to it right now... in some ways it's the only thing that is keeping me going. That, and the kids, who deserve so much better. As much as I'd love to walk away, for all the reasons cited, I can't until the kids are as safe as I can get them.


Yes, it's time to stop. You have more than enough evidence already. You say your kids safety is your number 1 priority? Then get a temporary child custody order already. With all the evidence you have of what she has done, the emails from OM, her drug relapse, you can get full custody. 

Get your kids away from this toxic environment and toxic mother.


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## Tover26

Hellooo Nurse... animaniacs? My kids love that cartoon. 

The show last night was interesting. My wife felt it was the right thing to call and give people a head's up that her lover might send them disturbing videos and content. Of course this required her to tell people she had had an affair. 
- Her brother was protective and got angry that anyone would threaten her. Completely missed the affair issue. 
- Her father, who had enabled it, did a 180 spin from how monstrous I was to how awesome I am (weeee... his validation is so important to me) and how awesome her lover was to how monstrous he now is. What a ****.
- Her mom who knew nothing at all, asked if she was okay but seemed either in shock or disconnected from what my wife was saying. 
- My mom, to whom my wife had told "I made some bad decisions"... you could hear my mom's heart being ripped out of her chest at the implications of how this guy would have her home address, her email address, and even know who she is. She started crying and through it asked if the kids were okay. 


It is toxic. But, I can't get a temp child custody order without arming up for a divorce and I'm not there yet. It would only make everything worse right now. It sucks for me. But I'm here for the kids, not me. I don't matter at all in any of this, only they do and they finally have their feet under them and are making friends and doing well at their new school. I can't. take. that. away. from. them. at. Christmas. So I'm going to pretend all is well and bide my time. 

The harrassing emails are pathetic. Thank you. I don't plan on responding at all. And if he should somehow show up, I'll respond then.


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## Chaparral

" I don't matter at all in any of this"

This makes me very proud to be a man. I hope that other posters learn courage from reading your posts.


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## Tover26

So, after all this time, today is Day 10 off DDay #2, we learned that she did in fact write quite obsence stories. I mean, for a sex story they're well-written and almost exactly what you would expect. The obscene part is that I know her and to read what she wrote about herself, how she wanted him to treat her, etc... that is what makes it obscene. 

He created a fake yahoo account that looks like her actual yahoo email account and emailed the story to my wife's step-mother... yeah the one who gave my wife advice about how to make love to a lesbian effectively. I'm thinking that he must have missed that point or he might have picked my mom instead. I keep thinking that I've got all the digital traces of her raunchy pictures and videos cleaned off our computers and phones when I find some new cache somewhere. I really don't want the kids to see them. 

After his threats to send a video of her masturbating during her cycle to her entire family, the fact that he sent a story suggests to me that either he can't figure out how to send large video files via email, or that he might not actually have the videos anymore. 

I'm still having multiple seizures a day and it's hard. I flip between cold apathy and burning indifference... if that makes any sense. All I know right now is that I'd be better off alone, but the kids most certainly will not be better off alone with her. Since I can't take them, I'm still here and doing my best to regulate myself and avoid active discussion. 180 is still in effect and after the drama of the email yesterday - she thinks that was a warning to show her what he can do and to prove that he has all of this stuff still - we had an active discussion until I realized that I was doing all the talking and I just stopped. We sat there in silence for what felt like forever before she asked me what I thought she should do. While many inappropriate answers came to mind, I just reflected back to her and said, "What do you think you should do?"

She called her stepmother, who assured her that she hadn't read the email... yeah right... and without missing a beat wished my wife a Merry Christmas and hung up. It's making my wife feel very very alone. My mom is still reeling from the news that my wife had any kind of an affair and that some psychopath "out there" has her home address and email address. It's a bit of a mystery to me. 

Today I'll be meeting with my bishop and providing evidence for a formal church action against my wife for her conduct. I'm 99% sure that she'll be excommunicated and that will lead to a whole new series of issues, where we just moved and no one knows us y'know? I hope that doesn't affect the kids and their ability to be part of the church family. Big sigh. It's not like I can take them to birthday parties and church gatherings as often as my wife and I together could... it'll suck if people figure it all out (the church leadership won't announce it but people will figure it out) and stop inviting our family because they don't want my wife around. I don't blame them, but it's not fair to the kids. 

I have a group of contractors coming Tuesday to install a 15' trampoline that we'll get set up and then hide it. Christmas Eve, I'm going to roll it out and have it 100% ready to bounce. It should be the best Christmas ever and I doubt the cold will stop the kids from bouncing their little hearts out. I'm actually looking forward to jumping just as a way of getting away.


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## Chaparral

I think you should contact the FBI and Interpol. What could it hurt. I'm sure he is commiting a felony. Alos have MIL print evidence.

You may never get rid of him otherwise.

Never did see how he found out about polygraph, do you not know? Doesn't that mean they have been in recent contact?


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## aug

Have you had your computer checked for viruses, trojans, rootkits, keyloggers, etc?


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## Tover26

Yes, my computers are clean. Wife gave her account info to her lover though so he could help her clean up any traces I might find of their affair. That's taken care of now. 

More emails and threats from this guy. Last was to my wife who abided by NC and immediately called me in hysterics. It was bad. Allusions to what a coward I am, blah blah blah, and also that he's going to make her into the internet porn star she always wanted to be. He also calls her out on things like, "How did you not know? What? Did you think we were going to be together after your divorce and then after a period of sexual experimentation, we'd both settle down, get married and grow old together?" He mocks her quite extensively too. 

She had her MC read it. I'm still not going with her because we had an agreement that I would when I was sure there weren't other things lurking in her closet. The polygraph was supposed to resolve that and it didn't. Her MC blasted the guy for being a sick power freak and then blasted me for reading it. Unlike him and my wife, I actually do care. I don't want my name getting entangled in this at all. I never aspired to be married to an amateur porn star and she provided him HOURS of videos and 1000s of pictures in most genres and fetishes imaginable. His email claims that he has emails and even a video of her saying that being on the internet is exactly what she wants. He also offered to buy her a ticket to Singapore to come visit him as the only way he won't send out more stories, videos, and pictures. 

It's a lot to process but I take comfort from the fact that he has yet to send out any videos or pictures to anyone in her email account, which includes the entire family, friends, church leaders, and her and my company's manager information. Yay! That'll be a fun one to tackle should it happen... "Um Mrs. Boss, that email from me about my wife... it's not actually from me. It's from a jerk in Singapore who is blackmailing my wife."

Trying to stay focussed and positive, but damn it is hard. I keep thinking of things I want clarity on and then realize that it is in fact as sick and twisted and unknowable as it has always been and the answer isn't really going to do anything now is it?


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## Tover26

The 180 thing is only working when I'm not focussed on the As. When I am alone with her, and we're talking about the balckmail or whatever, it's impossible to be happy and move on with my life. Right now I'm supposed to be working. I had a brief lull where I actually got ahead of the curve, but am already falling behind. I just want to curl and fall into oblivion these days. With the kids around or when something is going on that is not personal to our family, I'm able to let go and appear to be moving on. But in reality I'm stuck. Mind movies, self-torture, it's all bad. I wouldn't fall in love with myself right now. 

Day 12 since DDay #2.


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## aug

I wonder if it is possible to file an internet harassment charge with the police. File one anyways -- I bet the police database is connected with Customs (sharing info).


Also report him to the TSA so he'll have trouble getting into the country (I assume it's USA).


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## warlock07

Singapore is very rigid and strict in their sexuality. The fact that he has pornographic materials might send him jail(I think, not sure). You can add blackmail to the list of charges. You can track him by his ip-address. Tell him that if he takes you down, you might as well as take him down with you. If he does not tone it down, you might well as take it to the authorities.


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## aug

warlock07 said:


> Singapore is very rigid and strict in their sexuality. The fact that he has pornographic materials might send him jail(I think, not sure). You can add blackmail to the list of charges. You can track him by his ip-address. Tell him that if he takes you down, you might as well as take him down with you. If he does not tone it down, you might well as take it to the authorities.


Very good point.


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## Shaggy

I think her have to face his harassment and her having to know you are seeing all this stuff will in the end be therapeutic. It's creating a ceae consequence that she is having to live through,

The MC is 100% wrong about there being any thing wrong with you seeing these mails etc. You have the right to see it all, and while it hurts I think it will in the end help you when you eventually see the end of the storm. You will know you faced these horrible challenges and survived, and survived by dealing with them not hiding away and ignoring them.

This MC seems to be a rug sweeper?

Now about your wife. What you haven't said much about was why she did this stuff? It sounds pretty extreme. Why did she put so much effort into it? Does she put that much effort into you and saving the marriage? Is she into being humiliated and dominated?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

Also he is eating and surviving on your fear of expose. She has been outed to the family. What else does she have to lose now? She lost it anyway. You can tell him that everyone knows and you don't care n. He might well well as sell them to make some money


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## StrangerThanFiction

Tover26 said:


> I have a group of contractors coming Tuesday to install a 15' trampoline that we'll get set up and then hide it. Christmas Eve, I'm going to roll it out and have it 100% ready to bounce. It should be the best Christmas ever and I doubt the cold will stop the kids from bouncing their little hearts out. I'm actually looking forward to jumping just as a way of getting away.


I like this. Tover you sound like you have a big heart. I hope you and your kids have a fantastic Christmas this year. Do your best to keep the balls juggled at work, you don't want to be losing your job at a time like this. You'll make it through.


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## Chaparral

Tover26 said:


> Yes, my computers are clean. Wife gave her account info to her lover though so he could help her clean up any traces I might find of their affair. That's taken care of now.
> 
> More emails and threats from this guy. Last was to my wife who abided by NC and immediately called me in hysterics. It was bad. Allusions to what a coward I am, blah blah blah, and also that he's going to make her into the internet porn star she always wanted to be. He also calls her out on things like, "How did you not know? What? Did you think we were going to be together after your divorce and then after a period of sexual experimentation, we'd both settle down, get married and grow old together?" He mocks her quite extensively too.
> 
> She had her MC read it. I'm still not going with her because we had an agreement that I would when I was sure there weren't other things lurking in her closet. The polygraph was supposed to resolve that and it didn't. Her MC blasted the guy for being a sick power freak and then blasted me for reading it. Unlike him and my wife, I actually do care. I don't want my name getting entangled in this at all. I never aspired to be married to an amateur porn star and she provided him HOURS of videos and 1000s of pictures in most genres and fetishes imaginable. His email claims that he has emails and even a video of her saying that being on the internet is exactly what she wants. He also offered to buy her a ticket to Singapore to come visit him as the only way he won't send out more stories, videos, and pictures.
> 
> It's a lot to process but I take comfort from the fact that he has yet to send out any videos or pictures to anyone in her email account, which includes the entire family, friends, church leaders, and her and my company's manager information. Yay! That'll be a fun one to tackle should it happen... "Um Mrs. Boss, that email from me about my wife... it's not actually from me. It's from a jerk in Singapore who is blackmailing my wife."
> 
> Trying to stay focussed and positive, but damn it is hard. I keep thinking of things I want clarity on and then realize that it is in fact as sick and twisted and unknowable as it has always been and the answer isn't really going to do anything now is it?


Have you dicussed this guy with attorney, police, FBI, anybody?
Singapore police? Your lack of action is incomprhensible to me.


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## Tover26

My lack of action... dude. Cut me some slack. I'm on the brink of being fired and my wife doesn't care enough to identify her soulmate, who she claims she can't remember his last name.

What exactly would I tell them? That someone person in Singapore is making fake email accounts and harassing us? If he were here in the USA, I'd have already done everything noted and implied. Internationally? I don't feel like fanning the flame. He'll grow bored and stop and if he doesn't... what do I have to lose here on the brink of divorce - really? How many of you have your cheating waywards outed globally on the internet? 

Granted, I don't want that to happen but except for contacting porn sites she ends up on and claiming... what exactly?... would you have me do? You think my local sherrif is going to do something about an unknowable harrasser/bully in Singapore? Damn, sherrif'd probably undertake a porn site by site search looking for my wife. 

Get real here. It's a consequence that my wife setup and there is not a whole lot that I can do about it. I don't want to go trolling porn sites either.


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## Eli-Zor

Focus on your job and yourself , your wife will carry the consequences and over time you will obtain the truth. Shut down the old mail accounts and if he has access to some in your name let you work know someone has hacked your private account.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Tover26 said:


> My lack of action... dude. Cut me some slack. I'm on the brink of being fired and my wife doesn't care enough to identify her soulmate, who she claims she can't remember his last name.
> 
> What exactly would I tell them? That someone person in Singapore is making fake email accounts and harassing us? If he were here in the USA, I'd have already done everything noted and implied. Internationally? I don't feel like fanning the flame. He'll grow bored and stop and if he doesn't... what do I have to lose here on the brink of divorce - really? How many of you have your cheating waywards outed globally on the internet?
> 
> Granted, I don't want that to happen but except for contacting porn sites she ends up on and claiming... what exactly?... would you have me do? You think my local sherrif is going to do something about an unknowable harrasser/bully in Singapore? Damn, sherrif'd probably undertake a porn site by site search looking for my wife.
> 
> Get real here. It's a consequence that my wife setup and there is not a whole lot that I can do about it. I don't want to go trolling porn sites either.


Every person to their own I guess. If somone was doing what OM pervert is doing to my family what he is doing to your family I would take the time to phone/ talk to the FBI, Interpol, embassy in Singapore. He is commiting felonies, you know about it, your not doing anything about it. His next move is to probably start sending videos to your friends and other places in your town. He's having the time of his life thinking he is out of your reach and I would bet he is not.


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## Chaparral

Here is a link to Singapore police:

Singapore Police Force - Contact Us

This guy may not really be in Singapore< however.

There are ways to get his IP address but I don't know how. On a political forum I am a member of,a poster showed everyone how to get the IP of anyone posting on that forum. Someone here probably knows how or you may google it.


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## Shaggy

If it does show up someplace send them a DMCA take down notice. Since it was made by her, you own the copyright to the material, so you can issue take down notices under the law.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Shaggy said:


> If it does show up someplace send them a DMCA take down notice. Since it was made by her, you own the copyright to the material, so you can issue take down notices under the law.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is there some way to "tag" photo/video so you can search for it ? Heard someone did this.


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## Chaparral

Here is a link to report an internet crime to the FBI:

Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) | File a Complaint


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## Tover26

When this originally happened, I contacted a friend who works in the FBI, another friend who works at the NSA, and another friend who works on the security side of an ISP in Seattle. I also when to my company's CIO.

Again, unless he emails me on a network like what my employer has, it is nothing short of impossible to track him down. Lets pretend he actually is in Singapore... his best defense according to my FBI friend is email and videos from my wife where she tells him in any number of ways that she is his, the content is for him to do with what he pleases, etc. 

The emails to me are annoying but he isn't threatening me with physical harm... he's mocking me. That's not the same thing. My wife is a 30 year old woman who knew what she was doing. Singpore police won't hunt him down without evidence which was essentially conveniently destroyed by either my wife or him... lots of stuff about and by my wife not hardly anything at all from him. 

I have traced him down to a UK-based server farm. I'm 100% sure he's not in the UK, so he TS'd in. Weeee.... options are to hire a Singpore-based investigator to socially engineer who he is since my wife doens't know his last name, convenient huh? And the star witness - my wife - will or won't support it. Or to have my wife re-establish contact with him to try and find this stuff out... and I see that as a lose-lose for the entire family, no? Am I wrong here? Is it worth my wife giving into his demands that she talk to him alone or go see him in Singapore?

My apologies for not being more clear about what I have already done. At this point, if her pics and videos go out on the internet, why should I have to go out on those sites and do take down notices? I don't want to see that kind of stuff. It's demeaning to women and to me and it's not what I need right now. It won't help me or the kids. If he finds out, it'll encourage him to do more and more. 

On the flip side, every second he does this, the scales of justice hang heavier and heavier on him and at some point, he'll hang himself. The internet, being what it is, will move on to the next hottest amateur and in a week or two, her content will be buried and forgetten until some distant point in time when it periodically resurfaces as this type of stuff has a tendency to do.


----------



## warlock07

Or better tell him that you are divorcing her and he can post the videos as much as he likes to and you won't care. Tell him that you hate her more than him


----------



## Shaggy

You have a couple of other options. Choose them at your own risk:

1. Post your problem and headers on a site like reddit and set the hive mind hounds onto the problem and him. Hell be taken down and fully outted in 24 hours.

2. Take over your wife's email and taunt him. Drive him to do his worst. This will get it over with, but it will also cause him to rush and make mistakes.

I play these games for a living, and one of the best strategies is to figure out what he assumes the boundaries and rules you are following, and then go against them. It causes him anxiety and doubt, it also forces him to change the way he plays his hand. When he does this it creates new opportunities for him to make mistakes, and new opportunities for you find him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sindo

Shaggy said:


> You have a couple of other options. Choose them at your own risk:
> 
> 1. Post your problem and headers on a site like reddit and set the hive mind hounds onto the problem and him. Hell be taken down and fully outted in 24 hours.
> 
> 2. Take over your wife's email and taunt him. Drive him to do his worst. This will get it over with, but it will also cause him to rush and make mistakes.
> 
> I play these games for a living, and one of the best strategies is to figure out what he assumes the boundaries and rules you are following, and then go against them. It causes him anxiety and doubt, it also forces him to change the way he plays his hand. When he does this it creates new opportunities for him to make mistakes, and new opportunities for you find him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can see both those options backfiring pretty badly, particularly the idea of sending it to the internet hivemind. They'd probably be more interested in seeing those videos than supporting your wife's privacy. You'd just be handing the hacker an audience

Stooping to his level by taunting him by e-mail just becomes sad.


----------



## lordmayhem

Getting back to your STBXW: How did the meeting with the bishops go? Is she going to be excommunicated from your church? Is she still in the home? If so, why? She CAUSED this whole giant mess.


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## Tover26

lordmayhem said:


> Getting back to your STBXW: How did the meeting with the bishops go? Is she going to be excommunicated from your church? Is she still in the home? If so, why? She CAUSED this whole giant mess.


Abandoning her now would completely destabilize her. She gets the kids and divorce courts don't particularly care about this stuff as you all may very well know. She needs to be stable.

It's Christmas so the church stuff is going very slowly. Our clergy does not want to get involved in something this messed up right now for their own sakes I believe... and I do not blame them. Besides, the whole point of excommunication is to give the person a chance to start over and if she doesn't believe it, why should they? She already lied her way through one of these back in early October over the lesbian thing. 

I am not going to fight with this guy. It's lawn chair and popcorn for me. Kids LOVE the trampoline btw.


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## Initfortheduration

Merry Christmas, Tover. Don't let her talk to him and definitely don't let her go to singapore. I can guarantee that she would be blackmailed into making more movies (whether she liked it or not). Its sad, but she is reaping what she sewed. Like you said, its lawn chair and popcorn time.


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## Shaggy

If she was going to go to Singapore it would only be on a one way ticket after signing 100% of the family and kids over to you.


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## Tover26

So, updates... 
*A Christmas Eve email *was sent by same that was to just her and was a crotch video of a woman having sex at a glory hole. It looked and sounded like her. 
- My wife's defense was to tell me it wasn't her and that she'd never made a video that didn't include her face. 
- Approximately 10 sec after she said that, I showed her a video she emailed her lover that did not include her face. She went pale and started crying... "how do you have that?" 
- I asked her, "Why do you continue to lie? If this isn't you, prove it... don't tell me lies. I'm done." I packed up my stuff and left. 
- As I was getting in the car, my kids came running out and asked me where I was going. It was hard to explain and I realized... why am I leaving? 
- I went back in and found my wife collapsed in the closet crying. I told her that confronting the gloryhole video she claims she never made... and there were at least 2 if not 3 guys having sex with her in that video... constitutes a whole new level of lies and affairs. I asked... "If you didn't make that, how can your response to it be yet another lie and then collapsing in the closet while I leave? Your silence makes it true. There were parts of that even I recognzied as not being true like the date/time stamp on the bogus email. If that wasn't true and given how much I want to believe that YOU WOULD NOT DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT, Why Won't You Fight For The Marriage You Keep Saying You Are Fighting For?"
- I explained to her that this was the last time I was going to come back and fight for our marriage on her behalf. Since it was Christmas Eve, I challenged her to a game she had given me for my birthday called "Know Your Spouse" or something and as her score fell from perfect she gave up concessions in the divorce agreement but if she scored above a certain level, I'd let the gloryhole video go and take her word that it wasn't her. She passed. Sad to say, I would fail the wife side of this as I don't know my wife at all anymore. I feel like I'm living with an alien. But damn am I tired of fighting for her. 


*A Merry Christmas Day* email was sent by her lover as if from her own account to everyone on her side of the family. It described an extremely abusive situation and she asked them for prayers and help and begged her lover to speed up his plans to come and save her from me. At the same time, he sent me an email mocking me and her. 


Her brother and aunt called her to see if she's okay. It's interesting that he has yet to send actual pictures or video and I'm beginning to wonder if he has any. Why else attack me when it'd be so much easier to post a video of her trash talking me and achieve a more effective same end result?


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## Tover26

She can go to Singapore if she wants. I completed a transfer of $10k to her as part of the divorce agreement. I've set a date in February at which point I'm either going to 100% commit to reconciliation or divorce. The sitting around and waiting for her to bravely show any level of integrity is killing my spirit and hindering my ability to rebuild myself and be good at anything.


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## Unsure in Seattle

You GAVE her money?

Additional- why haven't you guys changed emails? For goodness' sake.

I totally understand that there's not a lot you can do to the Singapore guy. But there's stuff you can do to protect yourself, you know? You can't have him sending emails from her account (! I don't even understand how that works unless he has her passwords) to family.


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## bryanp

Time to save yourself and your children. God knows what kind of diseases she might already have. Your wife is a very sick woman who is toxic to you and your children.


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## Tover26

Unsure in Seattle said:


> You GAVE her money?
> .... You can't have him sending emails from her account (! I don't even understand how that works unless he has her passwords) to family.


Before DDay #1, #2, and #3... she and blackmail/Singapore guy basically wargamed how to get a divorce out of me that would give her control of her daughters and hence child support and allow her to be with this guy and do whatever it was they were going to do. Ironic she doesn't know his real name huh? All I had at that point was a gut feeling that something was going on and so I cooperated with the post-nupital divorce agreement and protected myself. Because she wanted the DV agreement sooooo badly, I made certain concessions, like transfering $10k to her individual account asap OR completed before either of us triggers the divorce agreement, and I got concessions I can live with and still feel like I'm being a good father to her daughters. So, yes, I gave her money and not a penny more. It's a clear message to her that I'm abiding by the divorce agreement and in fact getting ready for a dv. 

Meanwhile, she went back to try the polygraph with a different polygrapher yesterday on how many lovers she had and got inconclusive results again. Apparently her anxiety levels kept spiking even during questions like "Is your name XYZ?" Interesting that not only can she not design a polygraph question set that she can pass, but interesting that she has now 2x had inconclusive results. That's too bad because if she passed, I would feel a lot better about attempting reconciliation... and if she definitively failed, she had agreed to abandon the family and leave.

I've asked her to get STD and paternity tests done. If she can't, when I get to the anniversary of when I asked her to marry me, I'll weigh that appropriately when I decide whether to reconcile or not. Seems kind of bleak right now though. 

Yesterday, we had a pretty good day. The night before she recreated our 1st date ever and we had a good time. Last night, was good too. We talked about her inconclusive polygraph and connected for the first time in a while. We were talking about her aunt and some friends from before we moved and I pulled up my Facebook account... guess what I found? You'll never guess.

Either because he created a fake FB account, or because my wife helped him when she had my password, he had a fake account in the name of her lesbian lover where I was that fake account's only friend. And, he posted a video of my wife masturbating and moaning his name on my FB wall!!! There were no comments or likes or anything and because I was with my wife, she deleted it before I could really see what was going on or even when it had been posted. Lucky huh? There was a nice text block he wrote with the video I grabbed and emailed myself before my wife deleted it: 


> It looks like you might still be using this Facebook account. How does this one work for you? Lets start a clock and see how long it takes you to shut this down... too bad you didn't know I'm still here huh? You really need to be more careful seizure *** boy. Consider this while you think about how I'm out-thinking you each step of the way with YOUR WIFE'S TLC and support!!! LOLZ... [She] does not love you. Look at that statement and consider the truth: 1) she spent all of 2011 choking back vomit and bruises because of you, 2) I took care of you when you refused, 3) she declared herself to me to be my sex slave body and soul and ***** forever in A VIDEO I WILL POST ON THE NET SOON IN YOUR WEDDING DRESS, and 4) she practiced having sex with a GIRL to be ready for my stable. Consider these points against what she has done for you. She ever make a video like this for you? She ever produce a girl on girl movie for your viewing enjoyment?


Protecting myself... several of you have noted this. I've protected all of my stuff... my accounts, my email, my FB, it's all with different passwords that not even my wife knows now since DDay #1. I can't really do anything about her accounts. I have however figured out what is going on. If any of you search on "spoof email" or "spoof SMS" you'll find a variety of services that allow anyone to send fake emails and text messages. I believe this is how he is doing it. GMAIL is the only internet email provider that catches the headers that would even suggest it is fake and only then if you're actually looking for it to be fake. I know she didn't email me that stuff from her account. I was hoping her lover did not have videos but last night, there my wife was masturbating all over my FB wall and screaming his name. Weeeeee. 

Apparently I've been talking in my sleep and my wife knows that in February I'm done. I wish she didn't know that. I'm tired of this drama. I keep looking for the woman I believe I married and it's annoying that maybe she's still around somewhere but is being drowned out by all the noise of her life. 

To be clear, *the gloryhole video was not her*. She has a freckle on her butt cheek that was missing from that video. I really wish that it hadn't boiled down to a super tiny freckle.


----------



## Shaggy

When you say there is nothing you can do about her accounts - sure there is.

she gives you the passwords and you delete each every account. If you can delete it, you change the account info so no one can reset it without knowing the new answers and then you change the password.

As for the 10K did it go into a new or old account of hers. Could he possibly know her old account details and try to transfer it out to himself?

Another thing - you said she deleted something yesterday on your wall before you could see it. She should not have that kind of access to your stuff, nor should she be delete anything at all.

Why is she designing the tests? Can't the poly experts advise you on the questions to ask given your situation?


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## lordmayhem

Thank goodness it wasnt her...in this one. But geez, her reaction seems to indicate that she made something similar. It was all fun and games when she was planning to divorce you and screw you over, huh. Reality is a b!tch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Initfortheduration

You have got to get away. These are her real feelings she is displaying in these videos. You are her gravy train, do not continue to do this to yourself. I could not imagine a single relative of yours that would want you to remain in this situation. Your was completely contemptuous of you, now you find out that she has also done girl on girl for him. Stay strong.


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## Eli-Zor

Some OM are very good at manipulating and it looks like he is a bunny boiler who cannot get what he wants and will try to do everything he can to try break you up, yet he will never take your wife even if she offered herself on a platter. Its a malicious game to him.

Assume your wife gave him a lot more detail on the accounts than she is saying, and have her change everyone of them and lock down everything including the details within facebook and your mail accounts. This includes your mail reset addresses. Create a common message from you and your wife and post it on facebook , mention that he is a malicious hacker and if anyone believes differently they are free to contact you and your wife directly. 

Have your PC reloaded in case your wife let him on board and he has remotely loaded a keylogger. He may not have even told her. 

Don't rush any D, you have time on your hands and once the drama has cleared and he has disappeared life will be different.


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## Eli-Zor

> Apparently her anxiety levels kept spiking even during questions like "Is your name XYZ?" Interesting that not only can she not design a polygraph question set that she can pass, but interesting that she has now 2x had inconclusive results.


Sorry in my humble experience of many a polygraph this sounds like bull. If she is failing the general questions that set the baseline then I suspect she in enabling the anxiety to ensure the poly cannot even start. 

Be very patient with this. You create the set of questions with the examiner and when ready you schedule the poly.


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## Tover26

Thanks guys. As noted, I've checked out all my accounts and equipment. I'm good. She removed it from my wall because the whole thing was bringing on a seizure. As noted earlier, I have epilepsy and so where normal people get to have triggers, I go very quickly from triggers to auras to seizures. 

Will do all that other stuff. I should be at work today but I'm staying home to cycle all my passwords again and start figuring some of this crap out.


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## mr.miketastic

This guy might be into the "kink"
Ask your wife if she has an account on www.fetlife.com
That's a fetish social networking site. You _might_ be able to actually find him by his location if he truly is in Singapore. 
If he is this is a quote from wikipedia "Visiting pornographic websites and viewing their content is not an offence in Singapore, although it is deemed illegal to provide and/or supply any form of pornography from within the country.[57] It is also an offence to be in possession of pornographic material.[5"

I bet you anything she does have a secret account on fetlife.


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## Eli-Zor

> As noted earlier, I have epilepsy and so where normal people get to have triggers, I go very quickly from triggers to auras to seizures.


Take it easy be careful and don't let this ass**le wind you up.


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## Tover26

Any of your waywards get involved on TAM? I've long thought my wife is viewing this thread or is at least actively looking for it. She knows i'm posting about it somewhere. The question I have is, if she gets involved in a marraigebuilders or surivvinginfidelity... should I watch that and what level of credence would it be worth giving?


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## Shaggy

Tover26 said:


> Any of your waywards get involved on TAM? I've long thought my wife is viewing this thread or is at least actively looking for it. She knows i'm posting about it somewhere. The question I have is, if she gets involved in a marraigebuilders or surivvinginfidelity... should I watch that and what level of credence would it be worth giving?


You should move over to the private section if you think she's on here.

Marriagebuilders has one program, one solution, one agenda. If it works for you good, if not - do not bring it up there.

Why does she have unmonitored access to the internet at this point?


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## Eli-Zor

A


> ny of your waywards get involved on TAM? I've long thought my wife is viewing this thread or is at least actively looking for it. She knows i'm posting about it somewhere. The question I have is, if she gets involved in a marraigebuilders or surivvinginfidelity... should I watch that and what level of credence would it be worth giving?


I prefer your spouse to be on another site , this secures you and from her pre-empting your actions. At a point in time you can you can invite her here.

The MB site is pretty good as it has techniques that may help her if she follows them however it is a choice your wife has to make and if she is truthful, posts and participates actively the recovery program has a high rate of success. Be warned on the MB site she will be asked how you are responding especially when it comes to homework and couples personal time.


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## Eli-Zor

> . should I watch that and what level of credence would it be worth giving?


There are enough folk that straddle both sites who will recognise the situation. Again if she post updates regularly they will give guidance. What she gets out of the programme is what she puts into it. Its hard work and have no doubt she will need the strength and fortitude to get through. 

Personally as she is flouncing the poly I cant see her surviving long on the MB forum.


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## gonefishin

Can I have the movie rights for this story.

I have no advice for you. You have done nothing wrong. It seems your wife is suffering from some strange metal illness.


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## Tover26

Movie rights... naw. It'd flop. I've seen this one. The love interest is weak and even though the babe is a total babe and you'll get to see lots of XXX stuff, it's not really cut out for a normal audience.


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## Chaparral

" Spokeo's email search scans through 82+ social networks and public sources to find the owner's name, photos, and public profiles. Since 2006, Spokeo's reverse email lookup works with Yahoo.com, Hotmail.com, Gmail.com, AOL.com, and most of other email addresses.

Have you tried anything like this on your wifes or OM's email?


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## Tover26

...and my wife is live on at least 2 porn sites. He sent an email out yesterday as if from her account to a bunch of her friends from church as part of a thread forward from my birthday where he told her how to handle my birthday... basic instructions were to make him a sexy video without saying anything and send me a few screenshots from the video with a happy birthday message. 

I got a PM from someone saying that it would maybe be nice to see video of this... it's not. Trust me. It's not. Part of even wanting to reconcile is a belief that this person is not what you see post-A and the videos are always worse than mind movies... and anything from that video becomes a giant trigger. The problem of course being that my wife is my biggest trigger and in all the videos and pics, it's her. She's always wearing her wedding ring. She's always looking hot and sexy and doing things I would have died and felt in heaven had she put even a 1/10th the effort into "us" as she did into this person whose name she doesn't even know. 

The email for the morbidly curious... I think I sufficiently de-identified this... Thomas is one of about 9 aliases I've found for him. XYZ is not the real email account as I don't want him to trace anything back. Sorry. They both used this account off their iPhone's so the iPhone triggered their nickname but it was the same account, aka 1 less email account I might find someday. So, this was the thread forward. The email to wife's friends said things like "We're having problems blah blah blah, you know how my husband is... Happy New Years... here are some videos of the kids on a trampoline, etc." But it wasn't a video of the kids on a trampoline. It was a video of my wife stripping and masturbating while moaning his name in one, etc. 3 videos in all of her and then 2 videos like the gloryhole that looked somewhat like my wife but weren't really her.

_______________________________________________
--- On Thurs, 07/07/11, Thomas owns You <[email protected]> wrote:

From: Thomas owns You <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I hate him
To: "Wife" <[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, July 7, 2011, 2:59 AM

Awaken my dirty little *****... You've been driving and are tired and your **** needs release! Arise and do my will and save your marriage till I am ready to destroy Him. Today is His birthday and even though you gave him an awesome party my Slave, he will require something more. Cum for me and let us revel in each other's Love, and then send him the video. No words, just plain old boring Husband but We will know it your loving me with your wet ****. Haiz!

--- On Tues, 07/05/11, Wife is Thomas' ****Slave Forever!<[email protected]> wrote:

From: Wife is Thomas' ****Slave Forever!<[email protected]> 
Subject: I hate him
To: "My Master Thomas" <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, July 5, 2011, 12:31 AM

God damn it Thomas! I gave him a birthday, BEP concert tickets (just like you suggested btw!)... and you called it exactly when he looked at the purchase date and made cruel comment about how I obviously planned nothing out. Damn him you were right. After the Forth of July's fire works, we finally got everyone settled down and my brother left I had to take care of Husband with me being gone after tomorrow for a whole month but thank God for my period! I know you want details but htere were't any really. I told him my cycle started and we kissed for a wile and I thought of you the WHOLE ****ING TIME THOMAS!! I LOVE YOU FOREVER! As soon as he fell asleep and I was waiting and waiting forever for him to sleep, I snuck off and you should get a special 4th Fireworks video very soon! Mwah mwah mwah! You Are Always Right and your ***** needs to learn Her Master is just that... ha ha! 

When are you going to cum and **** me?! ;-) I am so excited (and horny and wet and aroused and wet and slippery and wet) to see you!!! 

I know exactly which hotel we'll use in Salt Lake City. Or I can meet you in Vegas, whatever. My dads cool with either option since he knows what a monster Husband really is and volunteared to help with the girls. I know they'll just love you Thomas!

Let me know which airport to pick you up! Thomas, I can't wait to be with you and soon forever. I love you forever and always and I'm sorry being so lousy with all this Husband drama.

Your Slave Loves You,
Wife -Sent from iPhone




_______________________________________

We're leaving the videos up for a bit to see what all he actually has and when new ones stop appearing, I'll do the take down notification. I feel that immediately jumping on it would goad him to spread them out more. But hey, in the time they've been up, there is a video of my wife using a dildo that has already had over 1000+ downloads and 12,000 views since it was posted on Christmas Day. I guess my wife is hot enough to be a skanky porn star and I have to tell you that I can't even begin to describe how much I DO NOT WANT TO BE MARRIED TO SOMEONE ON THE NET LIKE THIS. :scratchhead:


----------



## Eli-Zor

What does your wife say about all this?

I suggest you keep off the sites for a while as he knows this affects you. Have you reloaded your computer and changed all your mail addresses?.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

What have you done with the wedding ring at this point? 

Have you taken it back from her?


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## Sindo

You should block any images in those e-mails. It's not doing you any good seeing them. If you're using yahoo mail, then this link should help

How do I block images? | Yahoo! Mail Help

Have you ever asked your wife how this all happened? What was going in her head at the time? The logic of a WS in a normal affair is usually pretty twisted, but to me this is near incomprehensible.

Edit: Maybe you should just disable images in your browser altogether.


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## Chaparral

Can yahoo be contacted about this?


----------



## HelloooNurse

How people get off on those sorts of relationships I will never know.


----------



## warlock07

How big are the files? 

It is most likely that he uploaded the videos from his own computer. (proxies are slow to upload). Contact the site. They should provide you with the details(Ip address and stuff) without much problem. You need to take action now before this escalates much more. Waiting I think will only make it worse. A formal complaint will have the police should start the process. This abuse won't stop. He is just escalating it.


----------



## Chaparral

warlock07 said:


> How big are the files?
> 
> It is most likely that he uploaded the videos from his own computer. (proxies are slow to upload). Contact the site. They should provide you with the details(Ip address and stuff) without much problem. You need to take action now before this escalates much more. Waiting I think will only make it worse. A formal complaint will have the police should start the process. This abuse won't stop. He is just escalating it.


I agree, he keeps adding more the more he gets away with.


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## Sindo

My feeling is that once you issue a takedown notice, he is probably going to re-upload them somewhere else. This needs to be cut off at the source.

I don't think these types of websites are going to give up user IP addresses without a struggle. Maintaining privacy of content providers would be part of their business model. They would be more to likely give them up if were legal action or if law enforcement got involved.

There has to be some way to involve the authorities. Sure, local police can't do anything, but surely they can pass this onto some higher tier of law enforcement that can.


----------



## Tover26

Thanks for all the hope guys... but lets face facts. Porn sites, especially the ones that cater to amateur porn, have zero desire or business motive to a) take anything down, or b) make contributors to their sites become responsible... there are some issues with getting them to take anything down:
1. I believe that her Master will see them taken down and know that we're watching and he's getting to us. It'll incentivize him to put them up at more sites. The internet is not like prime time cable TV... so much porn is out there dominated by the porn business that the odds of my wife's videos become widely recognizable are very slim. They'll turn over and get buried. 
2. I have to PROVE that the person posting them did not have permission... when he can argue that by having them he obviously DID - it's not like my wife signed a contract... AND EVEN SHE DOESN'T KNOW WHO THE **** HE IS!!!! There are already emails implying that she made these videos on instruction from him to BE POSTED ON THE NET. 
3. To actually get them taken down you have to prove they're you... and for 2 of them, it's a close up of her crotch area. 
4. I don't think he has very many but I'd like to know I guess what all he has that is postable to the net. 
5. It's not my job. If she sent him a secret video of my making love to her while she fantasized about her Master, I will rain down wrath and ruin on the site because it would be me. So far, it's her hence her job and should we end up in divorce, these videos will all be quite handy.

Anyways, we had a good two days and then we're right back at square one. He sent me a happy new year's email and it readily became obvious that in addition to my wife telling him about very private things about me... like that I have seizures, she also told him she thinks I'm homosexual. Weeeee... did any of your waywards go these kinds of lengths to trash talk you or does this type of thing fall into "normal fog" affair behavior?


----------



## Eli-Zor

Yes , waywards demonise their spouses and make things out to be far worse than they are . Close your mail account then he can't irritate you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trojan John

If the video is on the net, it's there forever. I will guarantee you that it is probably on multiple partner sites or people have downloaded and shared with friends already. Trying to get a takedown is a waste of time and effort at this point. Any aggressive effort may result in a Streisand effect. 

Can't you get the guy's ip from his sent e-mails?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Once again, you don't really have to prove anything. You simply claim to own the copyright. Since the POSOM won't actually identify himself he can't counter claim that he owns it.

Any site in the US will likely take them down. No fuss, no muss.


----------



## Tover26

Wife can do it. I was re-perusing this thread and I guess there are some things going on from much earlier posts that deserve an update. 
1. I actually don't know who he is. I thougth I did but all I have at this point are about 9 aliases and an increasing probability that he isn't Asian at all. His English is too good though my wife says he had a thick asian accent when she talked with him on the phone. 
2. I've looked into DCMA stuff and the one porn site I know about is actually based in Greece. If my wife asks, I'll give her the proper DCMA take down letter to send to Greece and I sincerely doubt that even a single thing happens. 

Last night was a setback... well, it feels like every night is a set back in many ways because each day ends with an enhanced realization that together, we're very sick. So I had a 3+ hr seizure last night after not sleeping at all the night before. Thank God today is a holiday because I can barely function. I don't remember very much either and even today my hands are shaking badly. I need to sleep but nothing works and it seems I just end up having seizures. I dread even trying to go into work tomorrow because it's going to suck. It's a setback because that's how my wife labeled it. I guess I feel it's just a reaffirmation that we're sick together and I'm not ever going to heal till I know there aren't more of these waiting out there... either because of something she does and I have no clue what she could do to prove it after 2 failed polygraphs (well "inconclusive")... or we are divorced and her ability to be safe for me during seizures is not longer even an issue. If you don't know how epilepsy works, it's worsened by lack of sleep and stress. Even treated with meds like mine without a single seizure for 5 years, I have had days now where I can't sleep and stress is beyond belief. Valium and other drugs work 1x and then either trigger more seizures or hurt my short term memory so much that it makes me nonfunctional for work. I'm so ****ed.

Just less than 2 months now and enough time will have passed that I can see where we are. I think there have been two pivotal moments in this that I keep going back to. The first is that she only came clean about the woman when I confronted her with total knowledge of it... so weak. The second is that she continued her Master's affair right up through our move. I felt like I was making progress and getting to a good place (and I can see it in my posts in this thread) and then 12/6... "The online thing was entirely platonic but was inappropriate beacuse it took time away from the family... no more than 10 suggestive photos sent." to the very next day... 100s of emails, many different digital communications, phone calls, sexting, 10 hrs of 150+ so sex videos and 1000s of sex pictures. I feel like I fell into Pandora's Box and I keep looking for Hope but I think it might have escaped when I started feeling good about R after the first Dday. 

I'm feeling very lost right now... Shaggy/Chaparal/Morituri/others... just buying time to February's date with destiny.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Rest , stop reading the mails , keep off Facebook and focus on your own well being. You have no choice but to step back and give yourself some space . Lean on your wife if she loves you she will step up to the mark and support you. Have faith in yourself .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

Eli-Zor said:


> Rest , stop reading the mails , keep off Facebook and focus on your own well being. You have no choice but to step back and give yourself some space . Lean on your wife if she loves you she will step up to the mark and support you. Have faith in yourself .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

You need a small moratorium from the emotional battering. Take the kids out to the park or the movies, take up a hobby or a class, anything pleasant that gets you out of the house and away from the computer.


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## Shaggy

Have sought out any kinda of therapy support beyond TAM?

Have you also tried exercising to burn stress and get some sleep?


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## zsu234

Why don't you just seperate from her for awhile, if not for good. She's the worst trigger you have.


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## Shaggy

zsu234 said:


> Why don't you just seperate from her for awhile, if not for good. She's the worst trigger you have.


I think part of the problem is that she isn't stable enough to allow to be around the children by herself. 

Tover - one idea - if there is an next time for the polygraph:

only four questions:

1. Are you still cheating?

2. Have you cheated since you moved.

3. Do you know the OM's name

4. Do you know the OM's address/location


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## Chaparral

Shaggy said:


> I think part of the problem is that she isn't stable enough to allow to be around the children by herself.
> 
> Tover - one idea - if there is an next time for the polygraph:
> 
> only four questions:
> 
> 1. Are you still cheating?
> 
> 2. Have you cheated since you moved.
> 
> 3. Do you know the OM's name
> 
> 4. Do you know the OM's address/location


If I remember correctly the polygraph dude could not even tell if she was telling the truth about her name. She was to flippedout about what ws going to come out is my guess.


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## Sindo

Tover26 said:


> 1. I actually don't know who he is. I thougth I did but all I have at this point are about 9 aliases and an increasing probability that he isn't Asian at all. His English is too good though my wife says he had a thick asian accent when she talked with him on the phone.


Singapore is made up of a mix of different ethnicities, and English is how they all communicate with each other. They are taught English as their primary language in school, and it's the language in the workplace. They have a lot of uniquely Singaporean slang, but otherwise their written English can be as good as that of any American.

I'd agree with all that say to stop looking at your e-mail. Make a new e-mail address, inform all your contacts of the change. Let OM's e-mails accumulate unread at your old e-mail..


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## Beowulf

Pardon me if some of this has been covered before in your thread but when you posted something recently where your wife called the OM Master it made me realize that she was involved in a pseudo Master/slave relationship. I don’t know how much you or your W know about the fetish community but at the risk of getting you upset or getting flamed by some others I would like to post some things that might help you and your wife understand what a true M/s relationship is like. Let me preface my comments by saying I am not heavily involved in the BDSM community but I have many friends that are and have explored things enough to have a good idea of what I say. I have also confirmed things with these friends so I can feel safe that I am not talking out of my a$$. So let me put on my leather mask and bondage gear and let’s get started.

This may sound strange but the BDSM community has very well known and rigid moral guidelines that govern M/s relationships. The number one commandment is honesty. Trust is paramount in any M/s relationship and honesty and communication is of the highest priority. Most true Master will not take on a married spouse unless they have permission to pursue the relationship from their partner. It is not uncommon for a prospective Master to demand to contact the spouse of a potential new slave. Some Masters will accept a slave that is going behind the back of their spouse but this is usually only done if the slave has a deep desire to explore the relationship and has already approached the spouse and was rebuffed in some way.

A Master/slave relationship can be conducted long distance because physical proximity is not necessary to exert control over the slave. Sex is often not part of the relationship because the issue is control, not sex. Most of the time the Master will tell the slave what color panties to wear, make the slave eat her dinner from a dog bowl, command the slave to email or call at specific times a day, etc. It’s all about control. But before things get under way an agreement is drawn up which frames the relationship with strict guidelines as to what the slave is looking for and what boundaries are to be established. If the Master and slave cannot agree the relationship never starts up. If the slave has not disclosed the relationship to their spouse that is also stated in the agreement so that everything is upfront between the Master and slave.

Whether or not the slave’s spouse is aware of the M/s relationship or not, disparaging remarks or disrespect toward the spouse ARE NOT TOLERATED IN ANY WAY. This would pollute the M/s relationship and Masters will severely punish the slave if this rule is broken. If the disrespect continues the Master will dissolve the relationship pretty quickly. The Master will also never give the slave an order that will damage her marriage in any way or will compromise the marital authority of the husband. These conditions are almost universally accepted by all experienced Masters and those who are accepted in the BDSM community.

The reason I posted this is because it sounds like your wife had a deep seated fetish for being controlled. She may have repressed it for many years until it broke through and she desperately needed to satisfy that urge. She may have even tried to talk to you about it but might not have been explicit enough to really communicate what she was feeling. Most fetishes are the minds reaction to childhood trauma. In “The Erotic Mind” Dr. Jack Morin calls these Core Erotic Themes or CET’s. They can be controlled to a point but will always be there in some way. If your wife has a need to be controlled and doesn’t want these feelings she will need to address them in counseling and uncover the root cause of this fetish behavior. It is possible that she can’t fully suppress these urges or really doesn’t want to in which case you and she can explore these passions together as a couple. Of course you will both need to wait until things have settled down and you are in the correct frame of mind.

If this is the first time your wife ever explored these feelings it is distinctly possible that she was ignorant of the danger signs to look for when choosing a person to act as her Master. There are many predators out there just waiting for a naïve first timer to prey upon. It certainly sounds like that is what she got herself into. You should know that if she repressed these desires for a long time when they finally surface she was extremely vulnerable and allowed her “master” to essentially brainwash her against you and she said and did things that she would never do otherwise. Part of becoming a slave is to give up total control to another person and never questioning their orders. That is why most go to great lengths to define the relationship BEFORE it begins because once in the throes of M/s the slave does tend to lose all perspective. This is not meant to excuse her behavior but merely to try explaining it better.

I’m not sure if you are aware of how she met this POS. I am aware of a website called Fetlife that caters to the fetish community at large. While it is not a pickup site sometimes people do meet and explore things together. I can tell you that it is a wonderful place to gain knowledge and perspective as most of the posters are experienced fetishers and will happily share their information and experiences with people. If you or your wife want to know more about M/s relationships or if you want to ask people how to deal with various aspects of the lifestyle I would suggest you go check it out. Ok, I’m done. I’m glad to get that leather bodysuit off. It’s damned hot in that thing.


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## Tover26

Hey guys thanks, and Beowulf, I don't mind at all. I appreciate the tone of information sharing because I've gone to a few bdsm sites and choked on the imagery. I have a friend in Seattle that also dabbles and he has explained some of what you did as well. 

*Here's my problem with bdsm*... I'm not okay with it. It makes me ill. It's not for me. I don't want to be in a relationship with someone like this. As my Seattle friend has told me about it, it's about all I can do to try and remain friendly with him and we haven't actually spoken since he last explained the Master dynamic and that he is a "switch". Ugh. It's such a mess. I think you're right about it being deep-seated and she's in total denial now. However, we've enjoyed, before her As, a very energetic sex life. It wasNOT bdsm but I don't think it was run of the mill "lets get all excited about missionary style!" sex either. Of course now it's all just a giant trigger. 

I've started exercising more... we do have a trampoline now. Separating won't work short term but it will just fine after my date with destiny in February. I had to set a date to move either to R or DV.


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## Beowulf

Tover26 said:


> Hey guys thanks, and Beowulf, I don't mind at all. I appreciate the tone of information sharing because I've gone to a few bdsm sites and choked on the imagery. I have a friend in Seattle that also dabbles and he has explained some of what you did as well.
> 
> *Here's my problem with bdsm*... I'm not okay with it. It makes me ill. It's not for me. I don't want to be in a relationship with someone like this. As my Seattle friend has told me about it, it's about all I can do to try and remain friendly with him and we haven't actually spoken since he last explained the Master dynamic and that he is a "switch". Ugh. It's such a mess. I think you're right about it being deep-seated and she's in total denial now. However, we've enjoyed, before her As, a very energetic sex life. It was bdsm but I don't think it was run of the mill "lets get all excited about missionary style!" sex either. Of course now it's all just a giant trigger.
> 
> I've started exercising more... we do have a trampoline now. Separating won't work short term but it will just fine after my date with destiny in February. I had to set a date to move either to R or DV.


You my friend are what the fetish community refers to as a vanilla. Don't feel bad I am as well. You have every right to not want to participate in any BDSM type of lifestyle or activity. It's most definitely not for everyone. I looked into it at one point because my W and I wanted to spice things up but we found it wasn't for us. That said I was attempting to possibly explain what might be going on with your W and how she got you both into this mess. Fetishes like this can be dormant for many years, even decades, before they surface. She may not have even been aware of her inclination toward this fetish activity until an opportunity presented itself and then she fell headlong into it. She needs to explore the traumas that ultimately led to this if she really wants to keep herself from being this vulnerable again. It's too bad she couldn't have come to you and opened up before she succumbed to this Dom Don Juan. Mostly though I just wanted to stress how someone who already leans toward the submissive slave side can really fall into the relationship and experience even more than a traditional fog like state. Again not an excuse for her but maybe a better understanding for you.


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## Tover26

Just a quick edit... "...wasNOT bdsm..." Yeah, I've encountered the vanilla term. It seems there an awful lot of D or S people in marriages who either go behind their spouses back into bdsm like my wife did or who get their permission to do it. I was talking to my wife about this and she said that she isn't into bdsm either but the imagery arouses her... in her words as best I can, "I like the thought of being tortured like bdsm but if were to ever actually happen, not only would I hate it but I'd want to die. It was an online affair and so none of it was really real to me." My thought when she says this is always, "How lucky for me and you that it was online, had it been real and nearby I'm sure I'd never have heard from you again after you vanished."

I can't even imagine getting a call from a Master, "Your wife has applied to be my slave..." Look I get the D+S community is paranoid about having bad press or even really being identified, and they are welcome to couch what they're doing however they want, but I don't see anything noble about it and to be honest, I don't particularly care enough to want to learn that I'm wrong. I've never chosen a friend based on their sexual preferences and if in meeting a newcomer their first words were, "Hi, I'm Name, I'm a Dom/Sub..." I'd think they were an idiot for putting their sexual preferences right out before I even know a single other thing about them. I don't do that.

What I've found in reading and researching this stuff is just more reasons to end the marriage and I hate that it's becoming an ulimatum... I cannot with good conscience force her to choose vanilla vs bdsm, reconciliation vs dv, truth vs lies... it has to be her decision to stay or leave. Since she seems hellbent on staying, I want to know the reasons why I should reopen my heart to someone so destructive at all. 

Destiny Day February... all the pros and cons of 100% Reconciliation vs Divorce vs Nuclear Divorce... I'll look at them all and try to separate out her actual truths from known lies and see if I believe she's worth spending anymore time and energy on. The bdsm stuff complicates the hell out of it because it brings in sooooo many other issues.


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## StrangerThanFiction

Tover26 said:


> "We're having problems blah blah blah, you know how my husband is... Happy New Years... here are some videos of the kids on a trampoline, etc."


How did the guy know about the kids on the trampoline, which you just bought before christmas?????


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## Chaparral

StrangerThanFiction said:


> How did the guy know about the kids on the trampoline, which you just bought before christmas?????


It seems like he's getting up to date info. This is at least the second time lately he's had info that he shouldn't have.


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## Tover26

one of the big things my wife and I fought about in 2011 was her obsession over her iPhone, email, and Facebook accounts. At one point, to start the door being opened, I emailed her my FB account and asked her to return to our original agreement that we would each have total access and veto to each other's FB accounts. She had already given him access to her email account so he could make sure she didn't leave any traces of her secret email accounts. So, he got my FB account password... and 3 weeks ago I put up a pic of the trampoline and the plans. Since I changed my FB password, there has been nothing suspicious.


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## Tover26

...and farther and farther we fall into the rabbit hole. *Saturday was an odd day*... my wife texted me at 1 pm saying she was thinking about me and getting really turned on and wanted to have sex. Later that night with almost no transition from talking about her As, she lept up and tried to forcibly strip and **** me. It was too much and I just couldn't do it while thinking about her and him. It was a literal :scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead:

Then, Monday night she surprises me with a sexy outfit and very good seduction that was much needed and appreciated. Okay... but there was something off about it but fine. 

So Tuesday night, last night, we're talking about some emails she sent me where she said that she didn't want bdsm but wanted to explore some things with me sexually and do some "out of the box" things, not bdsm mind you. Okay... so I popped up a computer window and we started making a list of what she wanted to add to an ideal "kinkier sex life". Very little of it is things that weren't part of our normal non-kinky sex life and I kept :scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead:

Then towards the end, she made a comment about how we don't need to have "fetish porn sex"... that stood out like a red firework display on a clearn dark night sky. So I followed my intuition and viola... we start talking about her porn preferences which are in line with her As and I finally ask her, "Do you look at fetish porn very often?" No. Hardly ever. I looked a bit while understanding the bdsm thing but no actual porn. "I don't believe you. When was the last time you looked at fetish porn?" Years ago. So long ago I can't remember. *Remember now, this is TUESDAY night *that we're talking. "I don't believe you. You've never used the term fetish porn before, when was it?" Saturday, but it was because that's the site He posted my videos on and I am limited to 2 videos without paying for registration. <click click click... that explains the weird out of place 1 pm text "I'm horny for you" followed by nothing till 10 pm when she tried to forcibly seduce me> 

Okay, so I go to bed. But I can't sleep. I'm thinking how odd it is that she conceded the "Years Ago" 2 "Saturday" lie without apologizing or explaining or even attempting to help me understand why she would lie about this. Wednesday morning, I ask her for her iPhone. It's the first time I've done this and I pull up her internet browser history. 
- *Saturday *she looked at some 12+ fetish porn videos of increasing submission and dominance into the really nasty stuff that might work for some of you but just looks degrading and like rape to me. Time stamp... same time as her text. 
- *Tuesday *she looked at no less than 32 violent hardcore fetish porn videos totalling 8 hrs of bdsm torture, humiliation, and painful arousals including a few all girl masturbations etc. from 6 different porn websites. Her otherworldly explanation: "It was for research, I wasn't "watching" them, I just fast-forwarded them to see what I might like to discuss with you as part of the "kinkier sex" talk we just had!"

I looked her in the face and asked, "Why would you lie about something like this? It's drip truth when you go from no porn for years, to some fetish porn on Saturday to 32 20 min+ videos on 6 websites on Tuesday. You lied about the times, the extent, the intent, and tried to coddle me with the whole You have to pay money to register to see more than two videos..." She freaked out about how she wasn't lying and I began packing my bags. "I'll be gone for three days. When I'm gone, we'll talk about how much time you need to get out of the house. We're done. I'm done feeling angry about things I can't control and increasingly don't believe in anymore. How did you think it was going to make me feel, during this particular time when I'm inundated with images and content you shared with your lovers demonizing every aspect of me - as a father, a husband, a friend, a lover, a human being... to know that when you said, "I love you" it meant, "I'm horny because of fetish porn"... do you have any idea how hard it is to open myself up to you right now - and now I get to compete with the ****ing internet's violent porn content?! WTF?!" She helped me realize that all this was just research on her part to seduce me into being her Dom. I don't want to be a dom. 

I can't find a hotel that will allow me to work. My daughter threw up at school so I had to get her and I'm home now. My wife is going to come home soon and want to talk and I don't care right now. I'm talking with my bishop tonight and my dad's coming down this weekend. I'm done. 

Can any of you give me any reasons at all why I should give her a bzillionth chance?


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## Unsure in Seattle

Nope. Not at all. The situation is toxic and the relationship is doubly so.


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## Shaggy

You are at an impasse.

She clearly has a deep desire to be dominated and humiliated. 

Your choices are to be her Dom, get her into therapy to deal with the deep issues that are driving this, divorce.

Some people gravitate towards this stuff because they findi it interesting, but frankly your wife seems to fall into the other camp, which is deeply emotionally disturbed people who turn to it as done kind of personal therapy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dymo

Reasons For Staying:
1. For the kids. That was your main reason for staying for all this time.
2. It's not February yet.
3. She is into fetish, but she could be truthful that she prefers it as fantasy and doesn't want the real thing.
4. She can't help what turns her on.
5. It doesn't mean the two of you can't have a fulfilling non-fetish sex life. You're not required to meet your spouse's every sexual fantasy. Some can just go unfulfilled. She can meet those unfulfilled needs with porn.
6. Fetish porn gets her horny, but sexually, you'd reap the benefits.

I could probably think of many, many reasons to leave as well. Probably a lot more. But you asked for reasons to stay, so there you go.


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## Shaggy

One point to make is that just because she is into fetish doesn't mean she will have to cheat to get it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Unsure in Seattle

I don't think she's earned the benefit of the doubt re: cheating at this point.


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## Shaggy

Unsure in Seattle said:


> I don't think she's earned the benefit of the doubt re: cheating at this point.


I think she's trying to turn to him for it and help.

She got away from the stuff, but like an addict when she got a little taste of it she binged.

Take the smart phone away from her as well as access to the Internet. She is an addict and that is the channel to get her fix.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tover26

You think she's turning to me, you mean? As what her new supplier? 

Yeah, kids are #1 but it's getting easier and easier to see that an unemployed suicidal father isn't going to be good for them. I hope my wife will listen to some sound reason and allow my parents to have legal guardianship during the next few months or leave us be so we can all start healing. 

I suppose I should add that I still am in very much in love with her though I'm choking back on my own angst typing and reading that. 

I'm going to go get some sleep. I'm very much in a debunk reasons to stay mode... so the more reasons the better; I can't think of any real ones except the kids.


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## Shaggy

Think of this episode as a recovering drunk getting a taste of booze. Porn watching lights up and excites the brain, which causes lots and lots of chemicals to flow around.

She basically relapsed. Is she in any kind of therapy for sex issues?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf

This is exactly what I thought was going on. She has a deeply hidden fetish probably from a childhood trauma that she might not even remember. Often a childhood trauma strong enough to cause the mind to react this way will be repressed as a self defense mechanism. She probably fought these desires for years until they burst through when she got involved with that POS. If you think back before her A started I would bet you would see subtle clues that she tried to let you know what she was feeling. Of course being consciously unaware of them herself her clues were problem not explicit enough for either of you to really see.

Some people consider fetishes like this to be part of who they are and others are disgusted by their own thoughts. I don't know which camp your wife falls into but if its the latter then you should consider this a sickness just like any other. If you are completely against helping her indulge in this lifestyle and she truly wants to stay with you she needs to really work hard to deal with this. And it will be HARD. This kind of thing is really really difficult to overcome because her mind has accumulated these thoughts and feelings for years. They may have become almost second nature to her and are regarded by her mind as taboo fantasies now come to life. Many people can't fully eliminate these feelings and eventually after suppressing for years have relapses. Therapy will certainly help her with that.

I know you have no interest in the kinky side of sex but you should realize that she is reaching out to you to fulfill her needs. This is something she probably has very little control of right now. If she wants to stop these desires she needs to get into IC right away and unearth the cause of this fetish response. There are Kink Aware Counselors that are especially trained to deal with these situations. They can help people resolve these issues or help them deal with integrating them safely into their lives. The choice is up to the individual. Whether you want to stay with her during this process is a question only you can answer.


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## Beowulf

A follow up:

Let me preface my post by saying I am NOT excusing her behavior NOR am I trying to persuade you in any way into doing or not doing anything. The things being discussed are not something covered in everyday conversation and I have access to information that may prove useful in shedding some light on things. That said...

It sounds to me that your wife suffered a severe trauma and that has "metastasized" into this fetish behavior. It is possible that her thoughts are as frightening and as confusing to her as they are to you. She is likely looking for ways to deal with these thoughts while desperately trying to stay with you and is doing it the only way she knows how. IMO by trying to involve you she is showing her love for you and desire to stay in the marriage. Of course you don't have to capitulate to her needs or even stay with her if it is too much for you to deal with. Maybe you should consider a legal separation while she gets therapy for whatever caused this situation with her?

I mentioned a website called Fetlife before. I recall a story posted by a husband who was desperately looking for insight into his wife's behavior. He had found out that his wife had been cheating on him for their entire marriage (over two decades I think) with many different men. He was shocked because he considered her the best wife and mother he had even known. He said others thought she was the ideal wife and mother as well. But she had this "other life" that she kept hidden from everyone. It turns out that she had suffered sexual abuse as a child and her mind somehow had caused her to develop a need to be used and degraded by men and the lower the class of man the better. Long story short, he decided to try to make it work with her (I don't think I could have stayed to be honest) and she started counseling and according to a recent update they are doing better.

The point is that if your wife has this thirst to be dominated she may have little control over it. Therapy might help and she may eventually be able to resolve her issues but I just wanted to provide some insight into how powerful these behaviors can be. Personally I've read many stories and consider this type of behavior to be harder to resist than a typical affair. However, the fact that she is reaching out to you shows at least that she wants to try to work on things WITH you. It's up to you to decide if you are willing to walk with her on this path.


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## dymo

Hypothetical question: If your wife had come to you pre-affair and told you she had developed a taste for fetish, what would you have done?


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## Tover26

Assuming that this had never been an issue, I had already bought her a set of leather lingerie and some other things that would seem bdsmy. However, if she approached me to commit to the bdsm lifestyle and all its implications... I would have reacted exactly the way I am now. Leather lingerie is nice and fun. Beating someone during sex till they are in pain and bleeding... is not my cup of tea. I don't need to try it to know it would make me ill. 

I'm seeing a church assigned IC on Monday.


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## Chaparral

Dressing up in dif outfitswhips and chains are another. Did she say that? I'm not sure but I don't think master slave means hurting someone.


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## Shaggy

Perhaps try something to meet her half way in all of this,

You don't need to beat her, and from the sound of it she's never done that. She seems to crave being bossed around, possibly humiliated, but certainly controlled.

A Dom uses a sub like her for his interests and pleasure, while she gets pleasure from being used for his without him seeking assurance or her permission.

Keep her away from p0rn completely, but maybe try to order her about. Hand er the lingere you bought in the morning as you go to work along with a set of tasks to do during the day. If she competes them, she will be allowed to try on the lingere in front of you, but If she fails you return it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

What I'm getting at is that she seems to want someone taking charge, leading, and setting the bar for her to meet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tover26

chapparal said:


> Dressing up in dif outfitswhips and chains are another. Did she say that? I'm not sure but I don't think master slave means hurting someone.


It's not the part advertised... but it's out there as a fetish and was the majority of the porn on her iPhone. Shaggy... no. Even if it's not bdsm-per se, with her in that mindset she'll see it as a compromise towards what she wants. There's a difference between pushing boundaries during a normal relationship... versus engaging in compromise behavior. If your spouse wanted to have an Affair and was seeking to have one... would you compromise with them?


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## Shaggy

Tover26 said:


> It's not the part advertised... but it's out there as a fetish and was the majority of the porn on her iPhone. Shaggy... no. Even if it's not bdsm-per se, with her in that mindset she'll see it as a compromise towards what she wants. There's a difference between pushing boundaries during a normal relationship... versus engaging in compromise behavior. If your spouse wanted to have an Affair and was seeking to have one... would you compromise with them?


Of course I wouldn't. However is that what you think she is asking to do? To have another affair? Or is it to do these things with you? It could very well be that a big part of your marriage rebuilding is learning to meet ths desire to be submissive to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

I 'm confused what did she want that you objected to? Do you think she wanted you to physically punish her or is she just wanting to play act? Are you sure she just doesn't want you to tell her what to do?


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## Beowulf

A Master/slave relationship is completely about control. There doesn't have to be any sex involved. It can be something simple as ordering your slave to wear a specific colored panties to something like tying them up in bed. It might involved pain and punishment but that is only if the slave/sub is masochistic and it doesn't sound like she is. Again, it's up to you if you want to go this route but she does sound like she is trying to come to you.


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## Tover26

She wanted me to essentially become her new DOM to replace her affair partner. I feel like I explained this already...?

Tomorrow I will meet with an IC assigned through my church. I'm not looking forward to it. I feel like it's just going to piss me to talk about how I'm feeling. On 12/28 I began hearing voices in my head... essentially my wife and her Master talking about how they feel about whatever is going on in my life... to the whole mind movie thing but with complete audio and commentary. Early signs of schitzophrenia I've never had before. Otherwise, I think I would not be going to IC. 

I hate this. 

In other news, my wife has decided that polygraphs are full of **** and she refuses to try again on the sexual contact question because they are totally bogus. In other related news, the polygraph that confirmed and passed her on drugs was 100% spot on. :scratchhead:


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## kella

Hi Tover,

OMG! I finally had to register. My husband had an affair for about 6 months and started posting on another forum board about 2 weeks ago. It turns out your wife posts there and where I have been lurking I feel like you are tossed up in wherlwind! The only redeeming thing is like you we have a child on way in Feberary. I love my husband but it has been hard and I want to thank you for giving us something to discuss and think about different from his cheating. 

I read what I think is your wifes' posts and have been lurking here on TAM since my own Dday. I never registered because I guess I felt different or off to the sideish? The problem I am having is so tiny compared to this and I read all of these many pages and at first - I thought it must be a joke. But no, there is the girl, the consequnces, the online thing, the polygraph, everything, it is all hear! I had been thinking about asking my husband to take lie detector because so many forums show it as magic but then you post about the "real deal" and suddenly I am so sure it might not work well! 

Your writing is amzing. I feel like I am with you and I pray to God my husband's affairs are not like this. Tover, you really need help. Your posts about what is happening are so sad to read and your wife's posts all seem to be about her, her feelings, her struggles, her view, ... not really her side if she has one but liek my husband we read her posts and wonder why she is even posting because it isn't like she is saying Help Me Understand or What Can I Do To Help Husband and when people make ideas for her she rarely comes back and says I Tried It! And It Worked or Not! It must be hard for you Tover. 

Your post about hearing voices is bad. IC should help. Why did you wait so long? Also, can I ask you... if all wife needs is dom, why not you be dom and just say "Stop lying and give me the truth or whatever the punishment is!" I read you don't want that but it seems easy enough to get truth if her brain is wired that way no? Inside every "good" girl is a "bad" girl wanting to experience some kind of sexual spiritual level they think is out there but can't find. I married my husband because of his bad boy military streak but when he reverted to that after-marriage, it led to an affair and I now see that my initial attraction to him was wrong. Being married I don't want that anymore. I thought he didn't either but some barfly hits on him and boom he goes right back. Though he does seem to be trying. It is only 3 weeks about since Dday for me. The trickle truth your wife gives you would kill me. When I first learned I obsessed about divorcing, abortion, and even suicide but I prayed a lot and my husband was there whether I wanted him or not and it made him be there when I need him most. 

Be strong. If you haven't had revenge affair, my husband and I awe you. Be very strong. I pray for angels to hold you up Tover.


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## Chaparral

kella said:


> Hi Tover,
> 
> OMG! I finally had to register. My husband had an affair for about 6 months and started posting on another forum board about 2 weeks ago. It turns out your wife posts there and where I have been lurking I feel like you are tossed up in wherlwind! The only redeeming thing is like you we have a child on way in Feberary. I love my husband but it has been hard and I want to thank you for giving us something to discuss and think about different from his cheating.
> 
> I read what I think is your wifes' posts and have been lurking here on TAM since my own Dday. I never registered because I guess I felt different or off to the sideish? The problem I am having is so tiny compared to this and I read all of these many pages and at first - I thought it must be a joke. But no, there is the girl, the consequnces, the online thing, the polygraph, everything, it is all hear! I had been thinking about asking my husband to take lie detector because so many forums show it as magic but then you post about the "real deal" and suddenly I am so sure it might not work well!
> 
> Your writing is amzing. I feel like I am with you and I pray to God my husband's affairs are not like this. Tover, you really need help. Your posts about what is happening are so sad to read and your wife's posts all seem to be about her, her feelings, her struggles, her view, ... not really her side if she has one but liek my husband we read her posts and wonder why she is even posting because it isn't like she is saying Help Me Understand or What Can I Do To Help Husband and when people make ideas for her she rarely comes back and says I Tried It! And It Worked or Not! It must be hard for you Tover.
> 
> Your post about hearing voices is bad. IC should help. Why did you wait so long? Also, can I ask you... if all wife needs is dom, why not you be dom and just say "Stop lying and give me the truth or whatever the punishment is!" I read you don't want that but it seems easy enough to get truth if her brain is wired that way no? Inside every "good" girl is a "bad" girl wanting to experience some kind of sexual spiritual level they think is out there but can't find. I married my husband because of his bad boy military streak but when he reverted to that after-marriage, it led to an affair and I now see that my initial attraction to him was wrong. Being married I don't want that anymore. I thought he didn't either but some barfly hits on him and boom he goes right back. Though he does seem to be trying. It is only 3 weeks about since Dday for me. The trickle truth your wife gives you would kill me. When I first learned I obsessed about divorcing, abortion, and even suicide but I prayed a lot and my husband was there whether I wanted him or not and it made him be there when I need him most.
> 
> Be strong. If you haven't had revenge affair, my husband and I awe you. Be very strong. I pray for angels to hold you up Tover.


This is an amazing tale.


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## dymo

Just went on google and found Mrs. Tover's thread. I was going to suggest Tover move this to the Private Member's section, but it looks like the W is very clear that she is going to respect the Tover's privacy, and I'm assuming that Tover will be taking the same approach. 

It's frustrating reading her thread. I won't say much more. Edit: Just realized there are multiple threads. I take back what I said to a degree.

I will say one thing. I think both of you need proper IC. Not some church-assigned flunkies, but ICs that know what they're doing. Both your problems have gotten too serious for anything else. Edit2: I take back this, as far as Mrs. Tover is concerned. It looks like she's found an IC that she's making progress with. She's quite the thread-spawner, isn't she? That said, if you're hearing voices, you need someone qualified.

P.S. Do you intend to tell your wife about the voices?


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## Saved

*Another Chance*

Your spouse is going through a sexually addicted phase. I was once a victim of it, but now I'm on the road to recovery asking for forgiveness from my wife. It has caused a lot of damage. Your wife does want to stop, but it is very hard. The 1st thing you need to do is educate yourself on what you are up against. What helped me to come back around was reading The Most Personal addiction by Joe Zychik. It was a free online book informing me on what I thought was normal behavior in my mind, that really was not. How I Overcame Sex Addiction is the website. If you want your wife back, you have to 1st get her to realize she is addicted, then 2nd, seek treatment. My wife has decided to divorce me as I sought help too late. But I try my best to help others in need. The most major thing that helped me turn around was my faith in Christ. My prayer to Him for for help was key.


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## dymo

Saved said:


> Your spouse is going through a sexually addicted phase. I was once a victim of it, but now I'm on the road to recovery asking for forgiveness from my wife. It has caused a lot of damage. Your wife does want to stop, but it is very hard. The 1st thing you need to do is educate yourself on what you are up against. What helped me to come back around was reading The Most Personal addiction by Joe Zychik. It was a free online book informing me on what I thought was normal behavior in my mind, that really was not. How I Overcame Sex Addiction is the website. If you want your wife back, you have to 1st get her to realize she is addicted, then 2nd, seek treatment. My wife has decided to divorce me as I sought help too late. But I try my best to help others in need. The most major thing that helped me turn around was my faith in Christ. My prayer to Him for for help was key.


Saved, my feeling is that you came over from the wife's board, and did not make an effort to read this thread. 

The problem is not that she looked at porn. It is the nature of the porn, and what that says about the type of relationship they would have going forward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saved

Sexual addiction isn't always related to porn. I never mentioned porn or even seen the wife's post for that matter. When your partner only sees you as an object of sex, they have a sexually addicted mind.


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## aug

dymo said:


> Just went on google and found Mrs. Tover's thread. I was going to suggest Tover move this to the Private Member's section, but it looks like the W is very clear that she is going to respect the Tover's privacy, and I'm assuming that Tover will be taking the same approach.



Your google-fu skill is much better than mine. What keywords to search?


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## Tover26

You all are funny. As any of you know we all come to these boards for different reasons. I cNet for a sanity check and understanding of things I don't know... My wife is way more emotionally inclined and I would expect her to post thru the lenses of what is most on her mind the moment she posts... She told me she was going to post and it was the time of the blackmail and harassing emails that followed no contact. I know that if I read them it will really bug me. 

I did a google search on a few select key words and got her main thread as the 5th google search result. I didn't read her thread. I suspect she has been reading mine. We have set Feb 1st as the date she moves out and will remain separated for our state's time while she pursues whatever it is she pursues. There is nothing she is going to post that won't be oriented around emotional support for the crisis of the moment. 

Meanwhile, I am mtg an IC tomorrow and am debating how to approach this first hour. He is well respected by my bishop and has had good success with helping couples reconcile and also has a no nonsense reputation for calling people out and helping people move on. I think a timeline plus issue summary plus what I want for my wife and kids' sakes is what I will do. 

Voices are intruding more and more this weekend but since it is my where's voice it is only a problem when she is around. Sighs. I don't see that as a good thing. 

On a different note, anyone is welcome to post here. Pro-bdsm, anti-R, pro God,... I will read and consider all views simply because this is so alien and so far into the rabbit hole I can't tell what view is right. So I will consider all... And hopefully figure out how this needs to go down. People from SI are welcome here too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

The likely hood of keeping a family together after separation goes way down. Someone said only 10%. You should ask your new counselor if he thinks this is the right move. 

Best of luck and prayers for your family

Chap


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## warlock07

Just looked at her thread. She did not mention the most recent revelation(The videos on her iphone)


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## dymo

warlock07 said:


> Just looked at her thread. She did not mention the most recent revelation(The videos on her iphone)


Yes she has, just not in her first thread. She has at least 4 different threads.

Tover, given that you think that she's been reading your thread anyway, are you saying that you don't mind if she does read your thread?

I don't think she has, but I think reading your thread might give her a different perspective. At the same time didn't think the benefits would be worth the loss of that oasis of privacy you have here. If you are indifferent to whether or not she reads, then that of course changes things.


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## Tover26

There is nothing posted here that I haven't gently, angrily confronted, emailed persuasively, or logically debated with her in this entire process.


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## oldmittens

Edit:


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## oldmittens

Edit:


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## Shaggy

Tover26 said:


> There is nothing posted here that I haven't gently, angrily confronted, emailed persuasively, or logically debated with her in this entire process.


btw - I strongly suspect that in at least one of the emails he has sent you and your wife there was some kind of malware payload that has stolen your passwords and possibly left remnant malware on your PC.

This might also be true of your friends/family he has emailed.


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## lordmayhem

Yeah, as much as she has emailed him, you need to do the had format of the hard drive and do a clean Windows/OS install.


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## Eli-Zor

lordmayhem said:


> Yeah, as much as she has emailed him, you need to do the had format of the hard drive and do a clean Windows/OS install.


Indeed
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tover26

Computer is clean as a whistle. I checked this waaaayyyy back when I first suspected the affairs and have been religious about it ever since. I'm 100% sure I'm clean and so is Geek Squad as of 3.5 weeks ago. 

Is sex addiction real? My IC this morning told me that my wife needs inpatient... and since I can't afford it... we could try outpatient but he doubts it'll yeild results because of the nature of what is going on and how fresh it all is; that she needs to hit bottom before she can really succeed at sex addiction recovery. 

I encountered sex addiction when Rob Lowe hit the news so long ago and thought it was a bunch of crap. I suppose I still do. The way things have been, it's like an onion and we just reached the "Hey, it's a sex addiction!" epiphany layer... and in another week or however long it takes, we'll get to the psychological disturbance issue and so and on and on until every possible EXCUSE for the As is used up and she is forced to confront the truth I think is the truth... which is that she doesn't want a marriage or even kids and so had multiple exit affairs. Now that it's starting to come out, she can't stand the thought of being "that person" who ended a good marriage with small kids over "sex addiction" whatever that means. Win/win... she abandons the family and when she stabilizes like Jenny in Forrest Gump, she comes back under strict rules and gets to be a mommy - maybe. Win for me... win for her... why is it so hard?

Even bigger win... I wake up after taking the red pill and tell myself this was all a bad dream before I get unplugged from The Matrix again.


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## Beowulf

Sex addiction. I really don't think it is.

I read her threads and here is what I think. Sorry if my thoughts are jumbled but I'm trying to get many points out. all at once.

If I am not mistaken she got herself into this mess via an online gaming portal. I believe she subconsciously was looking for escape from everyday life. Some do it with alcohol, some do it with drugs. I think she immersed herself in that fantasy world and it invaded her reality. I think the 19 year old punk saw this as an opportunity to manipulate her and lead her to do things she never would have considered otherwise. This is not an excuse but rather an explanation as to what environmental conditions were created that allowed this to germinate. I also think that it was while connected to this gaming site that the tech geek was able to get your personal information so that he seems to be able to still find you online. My friend is into computers and he explained to me that all computers have a machine specific code. It is that same code that allows the feds to keep track of anyone who makes subversive statements online. Any tech gamer can get hold of software that can clone your PC, phone or any electronic device and give access to all your electronic secrets. Whenever the computer is used the same software can track it and allow the hacker to "see" what you are doing. My friend suggested that you actually are fortunate that he didn't gain access to all your bank accounts and credit cards as that has been known to happen. He said if you can you should dump all the PCs and phones that were compromised. If that is not an option you should hard format the machines to wipe any traces of malicious software that could have been installed. DONT TRUST GEEKSQUAD. I don't know that much about computers but even I know more than they do! Oh and completely get rid of all Facebook, Twitter, Email accounts and anything that was linked to them.

Speaking of this 19 year old gamer punk. DONT LET HIM DESTROY YOUR MARRIAGE! He is an immature a$$hole who has some computer knowledge and lots of time on his hands because he can't get a date with a real woman and has to resort to this sort of thing to get his jollys off. I think if you stay dark and don't respond he will get bored and drop it.

Alternatively you could have your wife write something like "My husband left me, my kids were taken away because of the videos you posted. My friends all abandoned me. My family won't speak to me. My life is over. You have ruined me. Do what you want because you will anyway. Post the videos or not. I don't care anymore. You have killed me and I am dead. Goodbye."
THEN GO DARK!

In reality if he posts everything he has and emails everyone you know, what does it truly matter anyway. You can't control him. If your boss gets an email you get another job. If your family gets emails they will forgive you. If friends get emails they will get over it. If they don't they don't deserve to be friends anyway. Ultimately I think you and your wife are too focused on this punk POS and not turning to each other for healing. I believe she is truly remorseful for what she has done and the pain she has caused you. I read her threads and I can see her anguish is palpable. Maybe because of all the layers this situation has you can't see her remorse. If you still have any love for her at all I think you and she can reconcile. After all this I can't see her lowering her boundaries again and you have strong bonds with her. I for one think she loves you a lot. I think she has made some mistakes because she is desperately trying to win you back and doesn't know how. She is grasping at straws. That's my take anyway.

I do not think she has a full blown sex fetish. I have known and know people in that lifestyle and she is not exhibiting any of the ongoing behaviors that would indicate she has been suppressing a fetish. I do think some of the aspects of her pseudo M/s relationship were things she subconsciously sought. I think she does have a need to be submissive to a certain extent and the feeling of turning total control over to another has been known to be extremely liberating to some. Tover, I really don't think you need to be concerned that she is trying to make you into her Dom. Some of what you are already doing could simply be extended to give her the comfort of having you in control of the relationship. Telling her to get ready because you are going to take her out without telling her where or why. When you are out instead of asking where you's like to stop and grab a bite to eat you just say we're stopping here...let's go. Basically you take charge. It's very alpha and that will probably suffice if she has that desire. I noticed that both the Singapore POS and the 19 year of chickita were both young alpha types who controlled the relationships. It seems pretty straight forward to my eyes.

Why was she looking at porn recently? I think this is also fairly simple to explain. I believe it wasn't much different from when you stop to view a car wreck. You know there is a tragedy unfolding and you shouldn't look but you do. You can't help yourself. I also think she is still in some disbelief that she could have allowed herself to get dragged into that mess. There is also another aspect that you won't want to think about but I'm going to mention it anyway. You seem like you are a good religious but worldly intelligent man. When you read those emails you knew right away what type of relationship they represented. Your wife however seems to me to be very naive and ignorant sexually. She had no idea what the significance was and she was shocked when she was made aware of what she participated in. I think her naivety helped to send her down this destructive path but I really believe she is truly remorseful. You need to decide if you can forgive her enough to let her prove it to you.


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## Chaparral

What Beowulf said.


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## Beowulf

Oh and one other followup. I know you will probably flame me for saying this but I don't think she is having multiple exit affairs. You are looking for any excuse to end this. If you read my story in the Long Time Reconciliation thread or whatever the heck its called you are doing the exact same thing I did. You are looking for a reason for her to blow it so you can extricate yourself from this marriage without feeling guilty. What you don't understand is that by doing that you are blocking reconciliation. And your problems will not get solved that way anyway. You need IC to help you deal with your feelings so you don't develop PTSD symptoms. You need to heal as much as she does and then you need to heal together whether you stay a couple or not.


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## dymo

Tover26 said:


> There is nothing posted here that I haven't gently, angrily confronted, emailed persuasively, or logically debated with her in this entire process.


Does that mean she knows about the voices?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tover26

I have plenty of excuses to end it already and decided to last Tuesday. I had given her my commitment that if she could pass the polygraphy I would open myself to reconciliation, but that hasn't happened yet and I'm not going back on my commitment. At some point I have to draw my line in the sand and heal for my own sake and my daughters' sakes. 

This - not opening up to R unless certain conditions are met - is my line in the sand. So far, it has been one thing after another... a sick variation of trickle truth where one issue du jour rolls into the next one and the next one and new deceptions are uncovered. Beowulf... you're right maybe she didn't have intentional exit affairs, but damn if it doesn't look that way to me. There's even a nice email where she and her Master go on and on about how to ensure that I divorce her and they win. Maybe it wasn't her INTENT to have it be an exit affair, but she sure helped him ensure it is one. 

It isn't an ultimatum. It's my realization that I will never ever be able to trust her until all the truth is out there and I have yet to see it. We'll see. After talking with the IC and my bishop, I've decided that if my bishop asks me to stick it out and open up even without the polygraph I will... what have I got to lose really? 

I asked for 3 things for R:
1. Is she an in-closet lesbian or bisexual that NEEDS lesbian action?
2. Is she a serial cheater? 
3. If we can resolve 1 and 2, we can address the affairs that actually happened.

Today, we are no closer to these 3 things than we were on 9/28/11 DDay. My wife just keeps rolling along from one issue du jour that magically explains everything to the next. Right now it's sex addiction. Last week it was porn addiction. The week before that it was this ******* harrassing us and posting her videos, etc. The week before that it was BDSM fetish. Next week or month, she'll get tired of the sex addiction thing and discover a new one. I have enough excuses to leave. I have no reason to stay. She's moving out Feb 1st unless she passes the polygraph or my bishop asks me to sincerely and finally open myself to R... and he will have a mountain of questions from me if he does. Sex addiction really? And treatment for that is what - a bunch of sex addicts all talking about how addicted they are? How does that even work?! How do you hold yourself accountable to a recovery process when... nevermind, I don't even see how this works, why it would work, or that it is even really real. There are no withdrawals. Sometimes I swear... am I profanity addict?

In Nov when I knew there was more to the "platonic friendship" than she was letting on, I set 3 goals for myself. 
Goal #1. I had a vision of my kids happy and jumping on a trampoline in the sun. I wanted to see that become a reality and so I made it happen Christmas Day. It was beautiful and a memory I hope my epilespy doesn't steal from me. 
Goal #2. I wanted my kids to see me talk about spiritual things fearlessly in front of a group of people and the opportunity presented itself this past Sunday at church. My oldest daughter went up and stood with me. It was very good and I believe they will remember my beliefs in a higher power and tie it back through my times with them... I hope they remember this when they are with their mother encircled by wolves and they feel alone.
Goal #3. I am going to keep this one private to myself in case my wife is reading this thread. 

When all of these are satisfied, I am going to make a personal inventory of my life, assess where I am, assess where my wife is, and make some permanent and irrevokable decisions I will act on in such a way that even I won't be able to take it back. Like an avalanche starting, the momentum will carry me past this moment into the next either with or without my wife. 

Beowulf, I love making love to my wife. She is everything I ever wanted in a wife. I know there were good and bad times, but I can't remember the good times anymore unless I read my journal... and then it's just an intellectual recognition that a good time happened. It is humbling to know that all this time I was little more than a sex toy to her and while I was in the moment with her, she was elsewhere. 

Yes, my wife knows about the voices. Talking to the IC made them louder and yesterday was an awful day.


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## Shaggy

Tover

You need to stop making decisions to do things which are "irrevocable by even me" while you are hearing voices.

These voices mean that you need to immediately talk to a professional and get help for your raging emotions. 

You're currently walking through he11, and you're letting the demons get to you. 

You're talking in huge dramatic phrases at a time you should be seeking peace - patience - and kindness

You're desperate to "act" and do something at a time when you should be slowing things down and letting time work it's magic.

Frankly, you're words are scaring me. You're a good man who has been pushed way to hard to the point of breaking.

You're wife has done awful awful things. Yes. It also seems that she isn't honestly very bright. She's a follower who very stupidly let herself be led by an idiot over the internet, and by a lesbian at work. She's an easy mark for people who would take advantage of her and use her.

You married this woman and pledged to protect her. She is so very very much in need to of this protection by you for the rest of her life. She hasn't got the sense or the internal emotion fortitude to always choose the smart right choice. Instead she let's herself be taken for a ride.

She's jumping from thing to thing to thing - not because she's trying to mess with you - it's because she frankly doesn't have it in her to figure out the problem. She's being asked to fix herself and it's way way beyond her to do that. She needs external guidance and protection in this journey - from her husband and from others.

She did those evil things not because she had a master plan and was following it - she did them because others told her too. Her deepest failing is that she is naive and weak. 

The bouncing from explanation to explanation is because she is desperate to understand how she could have been so weak and stupid. 

She isn't finding the answers in those various theories because the real answer is simply that she wasn't thinking, she wasn't smart, she wasn't in control. She was letting herself be driven and taken advantage of by nasty people who used her.

So stop talking scary dramatic talk.

Understand she's your wife and she's a person who has made really really bad choices due to influence from evil people.

Understand that as her husband, you signed up to protect her and guide her especially through the darkest times. Well sir those times are now.

To win this battle YOU need to steal yourself. If you're hearing voices - you need to talk to a real psychiatrist and tell them to go. The only voices you need to hear are yours, your wife's, your children, friends, and your faith's leaders.

We don't get through darktimes like this by dramatic actions and lines in the sand. We get through darktimes by hard work, patience, and using our intelligence and falling back on our core values.


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## Beowulf

TT is always par for the course when it comes to WS. It's unfortunately a byproduct of the fog and it's very rare that it doesn't occur. My wife ended the A on her own and I still got some TT. It happens.

If I am not mistaken hasn't your W already taken a polygraph that came back inconclusive? I may be confusing this with another thread. Polygraphs are not always accurate. I think a better measure of her remorse and willingness to make things right is her actions.

I do not believe she is a sex addict but the way you talk about the treatment is quite disingenuous considering you are on TAM talking to a bunch of recovering BS and WS looking for insight from others that have been there before. And you don't see how that works?

You are going to have to open up with or without a polygraph and whether you stay with your wife or not. It is called recovery and if you want to heal you will have to open up regardless.

Is she a closet lesbian or bisexual. Why would you ask that question? Because she had a fling with another woman. My friend you really need to read up more on women and how they think. They aren't like men. They're more open to emotional connections and sometimes gender matters less than other factors. Frankly I don't know many women who haven't at least wondered what it would be like to be with another woman. Most will not admit it but if you noted the popularity of programs like "The L Word" then you already know that's true. If she hasn't been looking before for a lesbian relationship I'm not sure why you would condemn her to that lifestyle in your mind.

Is she a serial cheater? Before this unfortunate period in her life was she promiscuous? Did she cheat before? My wife had an affair where actual sex took place and I wouldn't call her a serial cheater. Your W's affair was an EA and it took place online with the OM thousands of miles away. Her A with this OW took place in that same sphere of time when she was confused and in a fog.

Can you address the affairs is the better question. I know you have been and continue to go through a lot but I'm starting to get the feeling that your W is trying and you just can't find it in your heart to forgive. Whether you stay with her or not I think you need IC in order to address your issues. I know she did some really stupid things and any affair is heart wrenching but I've seen couples recover from far worse than this. The question is do you really want to recover or just hold onto your pain like a bulldog with a steak.


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## Chaparral

I fear for your family also. Your mental and medical condition both need to be under professional care. What can that hurt? Your kids need you whole and in one piece being their father, leading their family and making wise decisions.

I had two uncles that went through similar trauma and they did not get help until it was two late. They were never the same after that.

Please listen to Beowulf and Shaggy. These are the two wisest posts I have seen on TAM.


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## Beowulf

After my wife ended her affair and we were trying to fix our marriage I was really bottling up my emotions and waiting for her to screw up so I could leave her with a clear conscience. Guess what? Other than a few minor missteps she held the course. Did I appreciate her efforts? Did I respect her willingness to do the heavy lifting? NO

I got frustrated and unleashed a tidal wave of hate and venom that still has me shaking my head to this day. I reduced my remorseful wife to a quivering pile of fear. It was only after I looked at her shaking lying on the floor that I came to my senses. I said and did the most hurtful things you could ever imagine.

Did I mean it? After all...I said it. Did I mean it?

Sometimes people say things they don't mean. You are holding your wife accountable for some things that were said when she was in her fog. If everybody held everybody accountable for every word that was ever said what would the world be like? Would there ever be any marital reconciliations if every WS was strictly held to what they said while in the fog? Have you never said anything to anyone and regretted it later? Like I said I think you are having a problem forgiving her and if that is the case then move on. But do so understanding that she is trying to repair the marriage and you aren't able to forgive her. Don't hold some arbitrary crossing of some imagined line in the sand to be the reason.

Your wife is grasping at straws trying to find a way to repair her relationship with you. You are demanding answers but you are not giving her the time necessary to find the correct ones. Consequently she is throwing explanations against the wall in the hopes that one will stick and you will forgive her. Hasn't she already switched therapists because you felt she wasn't making progress quickly enough? It sounds to me like she is doing all she can on her own to try to repair the marriage but she isn't getting any help from you. If you can't find it in your heart to forgive her then reconciliation will not happen. But don't make it out to be her fault if you don't stay together. It is completely her fault for the A but not for all of the marital problems before the A and certainly not for this.


----------



## dymo

Tover, whether you R or D, either path is going to put you under considerable mental stress. Get some professional help. You need to keep your sanity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tover26

I can tell you all are putting some effort into unravelling this with me. Thank you. 

The "clutching at straws" pattern is her "tell" for more deception. My wife is many things, but I know that at the end of the day/world/whatever... she does not want to be someone who ended up in a divorce with small children because of affairs on her part. No. She wants more time to leave on her terms, where she can roll into a seemingly better situation so that spectators go... "Ah, she left as a step up" as opposed to, "He kicked her out because of multiple affairs". This is a pattern her father has too. 

Right now she is at her first SA meeting. There are no ladies-only groups in our area but she found a sponsor that is willing to take her. Her IC has her in a 90 in 90 program. I'm having a hard time thinking that any of this makes a difference and am I the only one who feels that putting a bunch of supposed sex addicts together in a room to talk about sex addiction is a really really bad idea? 

Here's the thing... anyone in a panic, torture, duress... will say or do just about anything to either buy more time or to make the alarm stop. Short term, my wife says all the right things. She sounds tremendously remorseful. Heck, she even went before a church council in October and endured a 2 hour hearing that resulted in her being disfellowshipped, all the while continuing her Master/Slave affair. She convinced all these people that it was just the girl she had an affair with. She convinced me of it too. 

And yes, I've considered the "online" thing... and was kind of coming to terms with it until a few things happened. 1) Some of the harrassing emails shed light on allusions made in their emails that they actually met up in May, July, and maybe late August, and 2) she tried to recruit me as her Dom. Doesn't sound a whole lot like a mere "online" affair when you look at the bottomline of the panicky actions. 

@ Beowulf... I have plenty of reasons to leave and not only am I struggling with Forgiveness, I'm struggling with so many other things too. Forgiveness will come in time whether we divorce or reconcile. I'm 100% sure of it. For right now, I'm praying for a miracle. My 2nd IC session is on Thursday morning and I hope I come out with more hope than the 1st session left me with.


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## Shaggy

You think they met up? Wow! That would be an even more disturbing twist, who knows what really awful crap he'd have her do in person.

So you suspect there is much more that she is covering up still, such as her meeting up with him and him making her do things, perhaps with many other men? Is this based on evidence or suspicion? I know you think the video of the girl was really her. Would ths be from one of his meetups?

Seriously what kind of kid would have the cash to travel to her like that, unless he is in the country and she's lying about him being in Singapore.

Would a post nup be advised here? Find a good lawyer to write it up tightly? Or perhaps find someway for her to assign custody and all the family assets to you now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

By your logic, alcholics should not go to AA with other addicts. Drug addicts should not go to any rehab where there are other drug addicts. If I am not mistaken, all addictions are centered in the same part of the brain and are basically treated the same way, generally after the addict has hit rock bottom.

I would like to add one statistic. 80% of all couples that divorce because of infidelity eventually regret that they divocred and did not work to save the marriage.


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## Chaparral

How did you come to the conclusion they met up? Does this mean he does not live overseas?


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## dymo

As much as I feel for Mrs. Tover after reading her threads, I think we do have to respect Tover's decision if he wants a divorce. 

I'm sure Tover's wife's feelings are genuine. I'm sure she is in pain. But I have to question whether R is even feasible. As much as she might want it, they might not even be capable of a proper R.

R requires the disloyal spouse to be honest and transparent, and she has lied and trickle-truthed for a long time.

Ideally the OM would be absent from their lives, which probably is not happening soon. 

And it requires that both spouses are mentally in a place that they can handle it. I'm not sure if this is still true for Tover.

Maybe after Tover has taken some time to heal, and get proper treatment, R can be a possibility. Or maybe D is the route that this needs to take. If that's what happens, at this stage Tover can leave with his head held high. Few people in his unique situation would have stuck it out as long as he did.

Edit: 
Tover, please, please get treatment for the voices. Once they're there, divorcing her won't force them away. For that you need proper psychiatric help.


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## Beowulf

Tover,

You can and will do whatever you feel is right. I do not believe she had multiple or even one exit affair. I think the likelihood that her and the Singapore sicko got together physically is pretty remote. I don't think she is a closet lesbian or bisexual. And given that just about everyone you both know is aware of her affair and has been receiving emails from the POS techie gamer I don't think she is trying to twist this somehow into blaming you if things don't work out. Your friends, family, you and she know if you get divorced it will be as a result of her affairs. Trust is a very hard thing to recover. I think because she broke your trust you don't believe anything she says. You don't think she loves you. You don't believe she ever loved you. This is all normal to think and is part of the grieving process you are no doubt going through.

I think you are looking for reasons to end the marriage. However you don't need any more reasons to end the marriage. She has admitted to two affairs. Many men couldn't get by one breach of trust. If you can't deal with what she has done that is ok. You have every reason to end the marriage right now based on what you know and what she has admitted.

My only point was to provide an outsiders view on what I currently see. I believe she is remorseful. I believe she is trying to repair the marriage. Like Shaggy said I believe she is easily led and is very weak and naive. I don't think she knows what to do to fix things. I think it is this indecision and waffling that you are picking up on and it is what is making you believe she is not sincere.

When I was going through reconciliation my pain and anger blinded me from seeing all that my wife was doing to fix our marriage. I didn't trust that she was serious. After all she deceived me and did some terrible things while in her affair. I ended up lashing out at her and it was only after I saw her laying on the floor curled up in a ball that I had my epiphany. I feel you are blinded like I was. I just hope you don't make a life altering decision that you will come to regret. I don't want you to have an epiphany years from now when it is too late to take it back. Like Chap said, 80% of couples that divorce due to infidelity regret their decision.

I think you need to go to counseling to help you deal with all the emotions you are feeling and I think you should hold off on making any important decisions until you are mentally strong enough to know they are the correct ones.


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## lordmayhem

Interesting twist to the saga, that OM might have actually met up with the SA WW.


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## Tover26

I think it because:
1. Their emails have a lot of detail about their plans to get together in May, July, December, and summer 2012. 
2. The progression of emails suggests a level of familiarity I just don't see anyone getting through chat/forums/sexting/phone calls.
3. One of the email threads he sent to our families has her replying and asking which airport to pick him up at. 
4. There are two time gaps in the timeline that are just weird and stick out like a sore thumb to me. While I might be filling these gaps with actual hook ups, it seems more probable to me that she was ordered to "prove her love" by going places and making videos where she was either fantasy/actual raped, or had anonymous sex with people where she couldn't really see or know who they were. And there are emails alluding to this just after those time gaps. 

He might not be a teenager. Wife says he had an asian accent and said he was a commercial real estate broker. The age is what most other people in that game thought his age is. Wife thinks he's 30 or so. All I know for sure is that I have 9 fake aliases for him and two phone #s that trace to calling card or VOIP solutions. 

I think I've said I believed they met up before... anyways. The issue isn't as simple as divorce. Without concrete proof of wrong doing, my wife ends up with joint custody in some form and without her getting strong, it's only a matter of time before she introduces my kids to molesters, perverts, and drug addicts. I'm trying to buy time but honestly, it's a day at a time thing and I want to be gone so badly it hurts. Having my wife's voice screaming, whispering, or talking at me nonstop in my head doesn't help anything at all either. 

I know I need treatment. I know I need help. I'll pursue it with my IC and see what we can do.


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## lordmayhem

She has an actual glory hole video out there somewhere, its just the one that he posted wasnt her that time.


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## Beowulf

Tover26 said:


> I think it because:
> 1. Their emails have a lot of detail about their plans to get together in May, July, December, and summer 2012.
> 2. The progression of emails suggests a level of familiarity I just don't see anyone getting through chat/forums/sexting/phone calls.
> 3. One of the email threads he sent to our families has her replying and asking which airport to pick him up at.
> 4. There are two time gaps in the timeline that are just weird and stick out like a sore thumb to me. While I might be filling these gaps with actual hook ups, it seems more probable to me that she was ordered to "prove her love" by going places and making videos where she was either fantasy/actual raped, or had anonymous sex with people where she couldn't really see or know who they were. And there are emails alluding to this just after those time gaps.
> 
> He might not be a teenager. Wife says he had an asian accent and said he was a commercial real estate broker. The age is what most other people in that game thought his age is. Wife thinks he's 30 or so. All I know for sure is that I have 9 fake aliases for him and two phone #s that trace to calling card or VOIP solutions.
> 
> I think I've said I believed they met up before... anyways. The issue isn't as simple as divorce. Without concrete proof of wrong doing, my wife ends up with joint custody in some form and without her getting strong, it's only a matter of time before she introduces my kids to molesters, perverts, and drug addicts. I'm trying to buy time but honestly, it's a day at a time thing and I want to be gone so badly it hurts. Having my wife's voice screaming, whispering, or talking at me nonstop in my head doesn't help anything at all either.
> 
> I know I need treatment. I know I need help. I'll pursue it with my IC and see what we can do.


What I don't understand is that if you have videos, emails, pictures, chat logs, texts etc. of her infidelity what other evidence do you need of "wrong doing"?


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## Chaparral

lordmayhem said:


> She has an actual glory hole video out there somewhere, its just the one that he posted wasnt her that time.


I don't remember, this are you sure?


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## lordmayhem

Naw, just an educated guess, from her reaction here, and what she posted in the other thread.


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## Tover26

and it is my theory that he is sending these "fake" gloryhole, handjob, and sex videos as a veiled threat to remind my wife of what he actually could be sending and posting. It is a threat aimed at me for pain and her to go see him again. But I don't know. I'm tired.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Tover26 said:


> and it is my theory that he is sending these "fake" gloryhole, handjob, and sex videos as a veiled threat to remind my wife of what he actually could be sending and posting. It is a threat aimed at me for pain and her to go see him again. But I don't know. I'm tired.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why would he hold back at this point, if he had worse he would already be sending it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

Shaggy said:


> Why would he hold back at this point, if he had worse he would already be sending it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To show that he still has power over her. He is still controlling her. I did read it in a Master/Slave relationship, sometimes the master leases the slave to other people or he might instruct the slave to do something demeaning. It might well be that she has some gloryhole videos and he is still blackmailing her. Have you talked to her about this? Try telling her if you do end up divorcing her, it is because of the lies not because of the videos.


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## Chaparral

Tover26 said:


> and it is my theory that he is sending these "fake" gloryhole, handjob, and sex videos as a veiled threat to remind my wife of what he actually could be sending and posting. It is a threat aimed at me for pain and her to go see him again. But I don't know. I'm tired.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are giving this pervert way to much credit. He is not Dr. Evil he is just another basement, perverted, computer hacke,r hiding out who knows where. Sooner or later someone will track him down and his ass will be grass.

On your side you should be doing everything you can to stop playing his game. Its almost like youare to the point of using him to wallow in self pity.

If he has seen anything you have posted anywhere he has your ISP address. Anyone can do this, I have seen it demonstrated on a political website. I am not sure what he can do with that but I think you should get a new computer, change all email, facebook accts. etc. and talk to your internet provider about you being blackmailed by this fool.

Still think you should report this to the FBI. What could it hurt.?

STOP DANCING TO HIS TUNE


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## Beowulf

chapparal said:


> You are giving this pervert way to much credit. He is not Dr. Evil he is just another basement, perverted, computer hacke,r hiding out who knows where. Sooner or later someone will track him down and his ass will be grass.
> 
> On your side you should be doing everything you can to stop playing his game. Its almost like youare to the point of using him to wallow in self pity.
> 
> If he has seen anything you have posted anywhere he has your ISP address. Anyone can do this, I have seen it demonstrated on a political website. I am not sure what he can do with that but I think you should get a new computer, change all email, facebook accts. etc. and talk to your internet provider about you being blackmailed by this fool.
> 
> Still think you should report this to the FBI. What could it hurt.?
> 
> STOP DANCING TO HIS TUNE


Big time :iagree:


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## Shaggy

I'm not sure that was the same video, hasn't he posted vides that's really wre her, and this glory hole was a different video sent directly not on FB.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dymo

Shaggy said:


> I'm not sure that was the same video, hasn't he posted vides that's really wre her, and this glory hole was a different video sent directly not on FB.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Correct. The video on the facebook wall was her masturbating. Not the gloryhole vid.

Maybe we shouldn't be posting bits on her thread here. Just like we would expect people on SI not to share bits of Tover's thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem

Deleted the post.


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## Chaparral

dymo said:


> Correct. The video on the facebook wall was her masturbating. Not the gloryhole vid.
> 
> Maybe we shouldn't be posting bits on her thread here. Just like we would expect people on SI not to share bits of Tover's thread.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Tover is sure the one video is not of his wife.


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## lordmayhem

My bad. It was the Christmas Eve email. Got confused with all the videos she's made.


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## Tover26

Yes, there are a lot of videos, but only 4 on the internet that I'm aware of. He posted a video of her masturbating on my FB account and has emailed these 4 videos to others. 4 of the 150+ my wife thinks she actually made. 

I was given 6 week notice at work yesterday. That makes it all worse. I don't know that I need much help wallowing in self-pity. I wouldn't even say it's self-pity though I can see where some of you might be reading my posts that way. 

There is a chain of events that just keep getting worse with no hopeful ending in site. It's not self-pity, it's the very real situation I'm in. Empowering things like 180 are great... it's worked to a point. Divorce doesn't work because of the custody issue. Epilepsy makes it all worse. 

I feel like this thread is reaching it's logical terminus where I can continue to provide updates, but there isn't anything "real" I can post about or that the forum will be able to help me with. 

I really appreciate all your posts and help. It's been great to have a place where I can put this beyond-belief stuff up and recieve support, take in new ideas, or be confronted on bull****. I'll be monitoring this thread, but will probably be posting in Divorcing or Recovery at some point. Take care and thank you all... Shaggy, Chapparal, Elizor, Beowulf, Mayhem... much appreciated.


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## morituri

Tover26 said:


> I was given 6 week notice at work yesterday.


Holy @#$. Forget about this drama and get yourself busy looking for another job pronto.


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## Shaggy

I hope the employment situation improves for you that sucks.

Is there other work in your area like what you do or will you have to move again?


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## lordmayhem

morituri said:


> Holy @#$. Forget about this drama and get yourself busy looking for another job pronto.


:iagree: 

At least you've been given a 6 week notice.


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## morituri

The job search may help you to take a breather from this whole crappy business of your wife's affairs.


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## Beowulf

Sorry to hear that you have another thing to deal with. Keep using this thread to vent. Sometimes that is just as important as anything else. Remember that we are all here because we care.


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## Eli-Zor

Look at the job change as a positive, look far and wide for new employment even if it means you have to move home. Sometimes a change, a new life , fresh faces are good for you. 

Both you and your wife must get off all the social media sites, close the mail accounts and open a new one for the both of you.

A lot of yours and her issues are reminders, get rid of those reminders.


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## Tover26

Hi, just coming back for an update. Since my last post... 
- Wife has increased the frequency of her sex addiction meetings and seems to be gaining insights into herself that she feels are significant. Nothing yet that really suggests a "Why in the first place..."
- I kicked her out of the house effective 2/1 but her therapist and my bishop both asked me to reconsider. Tomorrow I'm sending off post-nuptial divorce papers to be formalized as a condition of staying together. 
- We still get harrassing emails from her master. The last one indicated he was going to email her pics and videos to our respective managers as well as to my neices and nephews. My sister's reaction was to ostracize me from her life last week which really sent me into a bad place. 
- My IC seems to have come to terms with the fact that I have pretty bad post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) issues that are beyond him. So we're still meeting as of right now but I'm probably going to stop and move this over to my neurologist... at least while I still have health insurance. 



Other than that, not a whole lot has changed. I've stopped hearing the voices so much... which has been a blessing from the every single minute of every day. I think I've had a few days without seizures too. I might start keeping a journal again if only to be sure because my short term memory is still pretty messed up. 

I have good and bad days with my wife. Up until Wed when my sister ostracized me, we had been having a pretty good week getting over the Feb 1st separation date. I actually went hiking and camped out Friday night just to get away from everything for a while. It worked but at 2:30 am everything started to freeze and it made for a miserable night and I realized that death by freezing isn't in the cards for me. It's made for an exhausting weekend but it's been a good one to vegge out and sleep. 

As far as I can tell, she appears to be avoiding relapse or doing things that would make everything worse... though things are continuing to get worse.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Thanks for the update This guy is going to continue to mail you until you eventually either crack or change your mail address details. Why on earth have you not shut down all avenues of communication from him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

Dumb question time. Have you tried to close all email accounts?


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## Chaparral

You have to at least contact the FBI.. You have nothing to lose. 

Good luck, best wishes and prayers for your family.

Take care of yourself and your family. I really admire your strength and determination.


----------



## dymo

Eli-Zor said:


> Thanks for the update This guy is going to continue to mail you until you eventually either crack or change your mail address details. Why on earth have you not shut down all avenues of communication from him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

While you're at it, shutdown your facebook too.

There is no reason to keep that e-mail address. You can update your details with any friends or family that matter.


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## Shaggy

Tover why haven't you cancelled and stopped using the compromised email accounts?

Why haven't you set your FB setting so you see only posts from friends?

I'm starting to suspect your story.. You continue to post about bad thing after bad thing, but you ignore doing simple reasonable actions that would move the ball forward some. Why is that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NotLikeYou

Shaggy said:


> Tover why haven't you cancelled and stopped using the compromised email accounts?
> 
> Why haven't you set your FB setting so you see only posts from friends?
> 
> I'm starting to suspect your story.. You continue to post about bad thing after bad thing, but you ignore doing simple reasonable actions that would move the ball forward some. Why is that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If it acts like a troll, has a story like a troll, and behaves like a troll, it's probably a troll.


----------



## Tover26

Sure, it's the internet. Suspect it if that's what you want to do. NotLikeYou, feel free to avoid my thread if it bothers you enough to post on it.

Facebook is done. Emails are done. The only active account I have is the one I use for work purposes. It's my main account for recruiters, headhunters, and consulting work. Shutting it down right now, or back when this originally started mid/late Dec would be and still is disasterous to my being able to work with these people and find a new job. Same with my tel#. Should I have my family and friends and managers all change their email addresses too?

When I post about this stuff, it's because family and friends were emailed by him and they forwarded it to us. Meanwhile, this most recent was my work email that I am not going to shut down. At a certain point, were I to want to go to the FBI for example, my best chance of "catching" him is to give him rope to hang himself and shutting accounts down seems a bit counter to that no? My wife has agreed to a post-nup conditioned on her continuing treatment and avoidance of relapse and... on that point, this MOFO is my best shot at catching her if she relapses and returns to him. I'm not shutting them down. I'm not going off the grid. 

Yes, it keeps getting bad and that's partly because Dday #2 was 12/9 just barely 2 months ago. Looking at this thread it's hard for me to remember that some of this stuff is pretty fresh. My wife's last bad relapse was 1/9, just a month ago. If there weren't kids involved, I'd be gone and off the grid.


----------



## Chaparral

I could understand if you talked to the FBI andthey told you there was nothing they could do. However I'm guessing he has commited various felonies and they could/would do something.


----------



## NotLikeYou

Tover26 said:


> NotLikeYou, feel free to avoid my thread if it bothers you enough to post on it.


Bother me? Man, since Clairebear/Cantbeleve got banned, your thread is the most, uh, hmm, what's the right word that won't get me banned.... ah, yes. INTRIGUING.

It's a vanishingly rare man who could write about the trials and tribulations you chronicle going through, and every time you come up with another installment, well, I confess to a morbid fascination with reading about your latest humiliation.

I know its good manners to be polite and supportive on the site. So let me just say that whether you're a troll or not, I pity you.

So keep your little chin up, and don't get all pissy at your entertained readership- you should save that anger for your wife, if she really exists.


----------



## Tover26

Just checking in. Happy Vday. Kids are super excited and having a blast with Vday parties at school and church from yesterday through tonight.


----------



## Beowulf

Tover,

I hope you are doing better. You are in my prayers and I'm not even religious.


----------



## Tover26

Wife is halfway through her "90 in 90" and her therapist spoke with me recently about what he feels is sincere and strong progress. Things appear to have calmed down a bit, which is nice, but obviously we have good and bad days... her too. 

We had snow here today and with the kids being off school, it's made for a fun day. Wife is at work and I'm just exhausted. It'd be awesome to have a few weeks off to check out and zone out. 

Job search is moving slowly and I need to accelerate it and get a lot more serious but for now things seem pretty stable and about as normal as they can get. 

Some of the questions that are becoming more important are things like these: 
- *Given what her affairs suggest about her needs in a stable and exclusive relationship, am I going to be able to meet those needs? *She has said that she feels like she was a different person last year and that I was already meeting her needs and has no doubt that after we put some time and space between her affairs and her therapy/IC work has more time show consistency that we'll be fine if not better than ever. She doesn't feel her affairs suggested needs but I suppose only time will tell. 
- *Do I even really want to reconcile?* I don't know that I have a whole lot of desire and will to actually reconcile and there are still a lot of things going on. Some days I do, other days I don't. We'll have a postnup done very soon and while that will help me a lot, having an option like that in a marriage can't be a good thing. The postnup basically gives me total custody of the kids if she relapses. I left it silent for normal divorce should she want to go that route... after all, I can't force her to stay with me; that'd be stupid. And inasmuch as it's mutual, I can see a scenario where she doesn't relapse but does realize she doesn't want to be married. 

So, some of the big issues going back to the beginning of this thread. I'll share the issue and her current response now 6 months or so later. 
-* Is my wife an in-closet lesbian or bisexual, and is this something she needs for sexual fulfillment?* This comes about because of her 2nd affair with a 19 year old bisexual girl that last about 2 months. My wife's original response to this for months was that "having done it, I know I am not attracted to females, at all". Since therapy and 12 step work, her response is now, "The 1st affair was becoming way too intense and things with our marriage were so bad. I needed a way out of the 1st affair and she was smooth and accomodating where the 1st affair partner was rough and demanding. I was looking for an escape and knew that I would never be able to hide an affair with a male lover from you... she was at my work and interested and I thought I could escape from the 1st affair with her and hide it from you better. It made sense at the time but now I can see that I was going to extreme lengths to continue to hide things from you. I'm sorry."
- *Is serial cheater?* After all, how many affairs does someone have to have before it's serial... her original answer was that she wasn't because to be a serial cheater you have to have multiple affairs spaced out over years, as a pattern. So I asked her if I was going to have to wait around for the pattern to have a 3rd affair. Her current answer is that "Now that I've seen how much I've not only hurt you and those I love and care about, I will never ever do something like this again. I get sick when I think about how this has all occured, come to light, and while I wish I had been strong enough to NOT even get involved in this stuff, I wish I had been strong enough to come to you for help. I swear this will never ever happen again."
- *BDSM/enslavement thing is an issue?* I can't quite tell on this and depending on when or how it comes up, she can't seem to quite tell for sure either. Her sponsor in the 12 step said it's quite common for addicts to end up in bdsm type situations because the relinquishing of control helps them rationalize the wrongness of what they're doing. On the other hand, my wife says that she felt this guy knew exactly what he was doing and took advantage of her in a way that almost made her feel taken advantage of when she looks back at it. That doesn't make sense to me, but okay. She also says that because it was online, she never imagined that anyone would ever find out about any of it and to her it was just a role playing thing that wasn't serious to her the way it was to him... She says she realizes now that it wasn't just role playing but obviously there are some unresolved questions here. 

As for me, she feels that during our entire 9 year relationship, I have done a great job including her in major decisions but that for a lot of the tiny day to day things, I didn't and it made her feel like she had to continually put things off and bite her tongue. We're using stopping at 7-11 as an example here because I'm still a bit fuzzy on what she's actually trying to describe. Driving somewhere and there's a 7-11, if I wanted to stop we would. If I were driving and she wanted to stop, I'd have some reason why we couldn't. Small stuff like this spread out every day for years, she feels it built up resentment and anger like somehow her opinions didn't matter as much as mine. She has said that in and of itself, this doesn't matter and certainly doesn't justify her actions but that once she was in the affairs, things like this magnified other issues and became justifications for continuing to demonize me. Is she right? I don't remember ever not stopping at 7-11 or not taking her seriously... I remember a lot of times when she wanted to stop at 7-11 (continuing the example) after we had already passed it and going back would be a 15 minute adventure in traffic, or wanting to go when we were already late to be somewhere. Can I do better at this? Absolutely. Is it a reason? No.

For my part. I'm stuck in comparing myself to her lovers. Time passes and I think I'm doing better and then some trigger hits me and I'm right back there.


----------



## morituri

All this because of a 'Slurpee'?


----------



## Chaparral

Good luck and prayers for your family.

If I were you I would spend some of my off time researching ways to track POSOM. I was thinking about him and his nine aliases and I think "he" might be a group of people. I also think he/they could be dangerous. Especially since you don't know where he is.


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## warlock07

What about the lapses in her stories? I'm seriously thinking that she was lent to some other BDSM freaks by the POSOM.(This seems to be common theme in BDSM, lending your slave to other people). She knows that you will leave once this comes out. So she will never confess if it did occur.


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## Beowulf

warlock07 said:


> What about the lapses in her stories? I'm seriously thinking that she was lent to some other BDSM freaks by the POSOM.(This seems to be common theme in BDSM, lending your slave to other people). She knows that you will leave once this comes out. So she will never confess if it did occur.


Actually it is not common at all in BDSM. Usually in that type of relationship there is a strong bond between the D and the s. Lending out does not enter into it. However, given that this doesn't seem to be the typical BDSM scenario there is no way to tell what really occurred other than what Tover already knows and what his wife has admitted. Also, the so called "master" certainly doesn't seem to be the real deal in the way he has behaved since this all went down. I really think he's just some punk who managed to convince her to do some really wild and damaging things.


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## Beowulf

Tover,

Make sure you take your time and try to relax as much as possible. You're still coming to grips with everything and eventually things will become clearer the further out from D-day you are. I'm glad to hear things are settling down. If you do R you make sure to explain what you need to make you comfortable in the relationship. It sounds like your wife is at least trying. I really am pulling for you and you are in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Tover26

Yeah, there are a lot of lapses in her story still. But I don't think she was lent out... maybe tested by having anonymous sex with pre-arranged strangers or something, but at a certain point I suppose I'm either coming to terms with or rugsweeping this question mark until I have proof.

Speaking of which, I got to see the first draft of the postnup today. Apparently a postnup can't dictate visitation rights, but the rest of it looks right. I've sent it back for some modifications but once I have that if this anonymous or "lending out" thing ever comes to light then the divorce is pre-arranged. It removes a large part of the issues for me around this question mark. To Beowulf's point, I think the internet has catered to a brand of fetish for public humiliation or sexual misbehavior that I sincerely doubt the bdsm community (whatever it is) feels good about. In looking at it for my own understanding, I see a fine line between kink and crazy fetish... and while there is some overlap, the parts I don't see occuring are D+Ss going out and actually doing this type of stuff. Think about it. In many places it's illegal. Most people have lines they will not cross and, even if assuming permission and consensuality, word would get out and those people would really struggle in their own community. I do beleive it happens for commercial exploitation, but real people? Shrugs, damned if I know. I've listened to some of the 12 step meetings and have yet to hear of a single person with issues like that... one night stands, yes. Lots of ONS... yes. My wife was petrified of my finding out and so I think this may have been a line she could not have crossed while still pretending she was a good wife and mother. If she is still lying to me, the postnup addresses it to my satisfaction.

Yeah, I need to destress, a lot. Slurpee! LOL. I've taken up archery and have about 10 major home improvement projects to fill my weekends and days off. Had an EEG today after a fitful night of epilepsy issues. I'll be glad to see a new baseline emerge with this higher dose I'm on now. It's helped but makes me very sleepy all the time.


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## Tover26

Postnup is done and signed off by wife. Divorce conditions are set for relapse. She'll be strongly encouraged to conduct herself with honor. For any of you not familiar with postnups... it's like a prenup in that it sets division of assets, who gets what in a divorce, and conditions under which it applies. It cost $500 to do and took about 4 weeks...? 

Conditions are:
- IF proof of other affairs surface...
- IF she relapses into new affairs or revisits former lovers...
- IF it turns out that she sexually exploited the children...
- IF she relapses to illegal drugs...

For obvious reasons you can't require fidelity or a happy marriage. If she gets unhappy and wants to leave, she'll have to do a normal divorce BEFORE any extramarital activities commence. You also can't set visitations, custody, guardianship, etc. That gets determined by the court, but given the conditions here... I don't think it'd be hard for me to lean on past history, the postnup, and her relapse to gain total custody. 

Time to get serious about reconciliation I guess. I feel like maybe things are starting to move in a direction I can at least understand and come to terms with. Yes, there are still lapses in the story. Yes, things are still weird. At least the journey can begin Mr. Baggins.


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## Chaparral

You go Bilbo


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## lordmayhem

Your legal boundaries are set. Now comes the full transparency on her part and the verifying on your part. The hard part begins.

And the biggest question of them all is will you be able to move on this enough to committ to the marriage even if she pulls out all the stops to save it. Don't be afraid to admit this could be a dealbreaker if it comes down to it. R isn't for everyone. Again, good luck and keep us posted.


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## Almostrecovered

I have to admit this is about the hardest to do R I've seen

good luck


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## Initfortheduration

Sorry Tover, but I think you risk your health to much by staying with her. Just my opinion.


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## Tover26

I know. It's the high road for me though and I have to do it. I've beaten myself up over this and know that if I pull the trigger, I'll regret it for the rest of my life. So, I'm going to reconcile with a wife who says she wants to reconcile too. Oddly, I have way more confidence in her ability than mine. I'm not a tremendously "forgive and forget" kind of guy and there's nothing at all going on that makes it easy.

I have an interview tomorrow though and it'd be a huge relief to be able to at least secure employment and insurance right now. Have fingers crossed.


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## Chaparral

Good luck with the job and everything else.


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## Tover26

Job interview went as well as it could have. If everything went perfectly, I could have this locked down by next Tuesday as an internal transfer. But, by Tuesday I should know if it'll be perfect, or won't. 

In other fun news, wife went to a 12 step program last night at 630 pm. It's a 20 min drive from the house to the meeting location. After the 1 hour meeting, she went out with her sponsor and some other lady from the program. She came home at 1130. She texted me at 9 to say she was going to Subway. Writing it and seeing it in black and white does not equal the feelings I have about this. Good God. WTF? 

Am I the only one that sees this an out of boundaries condition?


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## Chaparral

Tover26 said:


> Job interview went as well as it could have. If everything went perfectly, I could have this locked down by next Tuesday as an internal transfer. But, by Tuesday I should know if it'll be perfect, or won't.
> 
> In other fun news, wife went to a 12 step program last night at 630 pm. It's a 20 min drive from the house to the meeting location. After the 1 hour meeting, she went out with her sponsor and some other lady from the program. She came home at 1130. She texted me at 9 to say she was going to Subway. Writing it and seeing it in black and white does not equal the feelings I have about this. Good God. WTF?
> 
> Am I the only one that sees this an out of boundaries condition?


What did she say? This sounds eerily familiar to another thread/story. Is that three sex addicts out together? With out worrying too much ask her if she knows what that looks like.


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## Tover26

Catching up... we had a fight. She was mad that I was mad that she was out doing 12 steps for reconciliation. As minutes became hours became several days, it got quite bad and she said we should go to a joint MC session to work it out. I said, "_Fine, lets go. Lets see what the MC is going to say it looks like that you were at a 7 to 8 pm SAA meeting, and then went out with 2 bisexual SAA members till midnight afterwards and didn't tell me where you were or what you were doing. Do you know what that looks like? To me? To an MC? To a reasonable person?!_" Enough time had passed that maybe she finally got it, or maybe she didn't want to go to our MC and admit to this... regardless, it'll be a topic in our next session. 

She was out with her sponsor and the other lady is starting a women's only group in our town. Her sponsor had a bunch of ONS over years, but the other lady got into bdsm stuff too and finally was forced into counselling when, I guess, the police found her naked and bound and lying unconscious in a ditch or something. My wife was out so late because they were talking about this and how, even though it has been years, she still gets the occassional threat and has no idea how many people she was "used by" during these bdsm sessions where she was often unable to see. It's a chilling and unpleasant reminder of the trajectory my wife was on. 

After the fireworks calmed down and my wife had some time, I think she finally gets it. We'll see. Good days and bad days continue.


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## Tover26

Where's the other thread/story?


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## warlock07

I am pretty sure that she is up to no good. That she is fighting back is a very very bad sign. I think she is relapsing. This is worse than you make it out to be.


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## bryanp

I am sorry my friend but you would have to be a masochist to remain in this relationship. You see an orange but you want to turn into an apple. It is not going to happen.


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## Beowulf

My main concern is that she said she was coming home at 7 or 8 and then didn't come in until after midnight. Tover, did she communicate with you that night to keep you updated and/or check in?


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## Chaparral

There will be rough spots. This is major. Having said that I have been in favor of you trying to reconcile with your wife.

However, you need to explain (for the last time) that she can not be trusted yet. 

However many exterior doors you have, Go out and buy that many new door locks. Show them to her and keep them out in the open for awhile before you put them away. Tell her last chance.

After having a lesbian affair and another BDSM internet affair she hangs out with 2 of them ignoring your calls and coming in four hours late. I don't think so. The next time she pulls a stunt like this I would change the locks and put a garbage bag of clothes for her on the front porch. I would file the next day.

I know she is naive but this action can only be called stupid. So stupid I do not believe her.


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## Tover26

Well, some time has passed. She spoke with her sponsor and with her IC and they all feel that she needed to do a better job communicating what was going on. Her next sponsor meeting is going to be here at the house at a time when I'm home so I can at least meet this person. I feel like something died when this happened. For example, my wife got kind of mad at me last night because I was just doing my thing and while I wasn't excluding her, I wasn't trying to include her. She accused me of treating her with apathy to which I just shrugged and asked her if she was sure she was using the word "apathy" correctly to describe how someone is treated. 

We'll see. As you all know, you get to a breaking point and keep thinking, "Ah yes, this is my breaking point." and then that thing happens and you realize in hindsight it's not... until one day it is. I also keep talking in my sleep which is annoying if only because there are things I'd rather keep to myself that I guess she's getting half the conversations about. 

I've been doing the 180 thing for several months now, but have also made sure to invite her to be part of my own and family things. Maybe she's finally starting to notice it, or maybe this staying out late thing with no one taking her side finally opened her eyes to how f'd up her attitude and behavior actually is. Her long term memory retention is pretty bad so I'm sure that it won't last but time marches on.


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## Chaparral

Apathy is not nearly as bad as disrespect thoughtlessness.........She has been extremely lucky. Where did they go and what did they do? Do you believe them?

Still praying for your family
Chap


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## Shaggy

She boundary pushing. plain and simple.

She's what mid-way through to SA program? She might be feeling like she's been putting so much effort in that she has earned the right to flex her wings and get back freedom to do what she wishes.

So when you didn't accept her just being out - on her own - she's rebelled because she had justified to herself that she had earned that freedom, and now everyone is reminding her that it doesn't and isn't going to work that way in this case.

She's not a grounded teenager. She's a wayward wife and mother who went way beyond even what a normal cheating wife did.


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## Beowulf

I think what she is doing should be expected. Not excused or tolerated but expected. She is probably now seeing the results of her actions and realizing this is going to be a long road to hoe. I think you should continue what you are doing and do not let her attitude or words affect you. She needs to continue to put forth a major effort to keep this going. If she does it will eventually get better but she has to keep wanting it to succeed.

Still sending you positive thoughts my friend.


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## Tover26

Shaggy said:


> She boundary pushing. plain and simple.
> 
> She's what mid-way through to SA program? She might be feeling like she's been putting so much effort in that she has earned the right to flex her wings and get back freedom to do what she wishes.
> 
> So when you didn't accept her just being out - on her own - she's rebelled because she had justified to herself that she had earned that freedom, and now everyone is reminding her that it doesn't and isn't going to work that way in this case.
> 
> She's not a grounded teenager. She's a wayward wife and mother who went way beyond even what a normal cheating wife did.


Yeah, this is kind of my operating theory at this point. There is a very high relapse rate in all 12 steps it seems in the 3 to 6 month time period for this very reason... they've been doing it, they kind of stall out effort wise, the insights and learning come more with more difficulty, and everyone around them lets their guard down just a bit. I'm sure it'll happen again and again.

On her part, she was out with her sponsor and going over 12 step stuff and I think she has seen what this actually looks like to the rest of the world on the other side of the behavior fence. Her sponsor's marriage did not survive and I think that her conversation with her sponsor afterwards was maybe a bit more sobering than she had hoped for... not in terms of divorce but in terms of how much easier it is to save a marriage than to divorce and go out dating with this type of baggage... "Hey, so it's our 3rd or so date... y'know how I keep disappearing most nights for weird phone calls and meetings... yeah... that's a sex addiction 12 step..."

On the one hand, for someone wanting only booty calls, that'd be great until they realized that at the core of a sex addiction is a lack of desire to actually be there with another human being... and it also sends a message of instability in every way shape and form imaginable.

Thanks for the positive vibes. I've had 1 group take a pass, I have 1 other group that could conceivably offer me a job this week, and I have another 1st interview this evening.


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## Shaggy

Good luck on the job front and staying on top of your hopefully recovering WW
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tover26

Thank you. She got her 60 day token at SAA last night. No apparent sign of relapse yet. Job is still a giant question mark for me but we'll see. Tax return situation helps. 

Tonight I'm taking my daughters to a girl scout camp. Wife will be alone tonight and all day tomorrow. Fingers crossed she is honorable. I'm getting ill if I think about it too much.


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## bandit.45

You can't hold her hand brother. She is going to do what she is going to do. You have to let go of the need to control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tover26

bandit.45 said:


> You can't hold her hand brother. She is going to do what she is going to do. You have to let go of the need to control.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know. It's not like I could control her behavior or return path anyways... but there are many memories of times like this where I thought, "I'm going to be an awesome dad and go do something with the kids!" and she used that as an opportunity to further her love affairs. Kind of a trigger thing going on. 

I'm going regardless and am going to try and not think about it/her at all.


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## Beowulf

Tover26 said:


> I know. It's not like I could control her behavior or return path anyways... but there are many memories of times like this where I thought, "I'm going to be an awesome dad and go do something with the kids!" and she used that as an opportunity to further her love affairs. Kind of a trigger thing going on.
> 
> I'm going regardless and am going to try and not think about it/her at all.


It's hard. I know. But the only way you will rebuild the trust is to let go. When you get home and everything is good you'll feel better. And the more often you trust and are not disappointed the better the triggers will be.

Good luck with the job hunt. Keep strong.


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## Shaggy

This is a big moment for Tover and her. 

Tover - listen to your gut when you get back and listen to her body language.


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## Tover26

Well, all seems normal enough. Kids had a blast. I was ready for chilly weather, but it was pushing high 80s. We came home late Saturday night after the new member ceremony; the bonfire was a huge plus for the kids. 

My wife's phone and computer brower history/records etc all seemed intact/correct to what she describes and she says she watched a movie, which was showing on the pay per view history. No shenanigans that I can tell. I didn't call or text her during the camp out unless she had a specific question I could answer. It made her quite curious as to what we were doing but enabled the kids to tell her all about their adventures. 

This was really hard. But, she seems on the up and up.


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## Tover26

Job situation is still shaky but still looking. At least our state provides free medical care to children so when I lose my job in 2 weeks, assuming I remain unemployed, I won't have to worry about the kids. That's positive.

I've traded a few emails with my wife's sponsor at SAA. That's been interesting to hear her story. She was way into ONS often having multiple ONS/hook ups one after another with different partners in the same freaking night... I don't think I could do that. Her husband stayed with her and they've been working through it for several years now. 

I guess that my wife was on the up and up last weekend.


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## Beowulf

Tover26 said:


> Job situation is still shaky but still looking. At least our state provides free medical care to children so when I lose my job in 2 weeks, assuming I remain unemployed, I won't have to worry about the kids. That's positive.
> 
> I've traded a few emails with my wife's sponsor at SAA. That's been interesting to hear her story. She was way into ONS often having multiple ONS/hook ups one after another with different partners in the same freaking night... I don't think I could do that. Her husband stayed with her and they've been working through it for several years now.
> 
> I guess that my wife was on the up and up last weekend.


Staying strong Tover. All you can do right now is move forward and keep trying. Are you feeling better about your wife? Do you see progress? All I can say is that if prayers were dollars you'd already be a rich man.


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## oldmittens

Whatever happened to the man that was harassing you and your wife did you ever get him to stop.


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## Tover26

The harrassing guy... so he sent some emails with various threats around Valentine's Day, my wife's birthday, and one more. Each one got a bit more pathetic, but the very last one had a very strong "english as a 2nd language" flavor to it. I'm thinking that this guy is actually part of a group that seeks out moronic women on the internet for the sole purpose of getting amateur porn photos for the purpose of extortion and blackmail. All of the original emails had near perfect English in them and suddenly we get an email with at least 3 writing styles and dialogue from a bad Chinese kung fu movie. "Wha' yu wan?" type stuff. 

It's almost end of March and no word from him for about 30 days now. As far as I can tell no one is getting emails from him either. Here's his last email so you all can see. To be honest I just started laughing. As bad as the torrid affair was, to know that my wife did these things with a probable teen-ager, is annoying in a "I can't believe I married someone like this let alone still love her!" way... but to think it's a group and this is who they are... LOL. Oh brother. 

__________________
_Or else. Lets not make this nasty AND also unpleasant. You know what you want and need that I have for you baby. So pick up the ****ing phone and call! You lack of response is start to become so annoy. Think he love you?!! Think again! You think he want you after all these thing?!! Think again! You sure you tell him all or else make bet and I send him ALL! Show him ALL! No one stay with or want you after it done.

Go see your profile on kinky sex matching up. You have many thousand of view already and HE has only a few more than self-checking show. LOLZ. He so fat and dumb but not you baby. You can have anyone man, woman, boy, girl... all for you hot for you. He give you what - pain and sadness and hurtful twisting of truth?!! Why stay when so easy to just move on without him and come be with me! I show you world you not even believe baby.

Call me, just like Starbucks or cum in my PAL room if you forget how."_
___________________

My wife takes this stuff more seriously than I am at this point. We still have good and bad days. Today and yesterday were bad days but I see her trying and feel bad when my heart just isn't in it. Some days I feel like my love for her is falling like a brick. Other days, I see it falling and try to stop it and remember good things, see good things. Against it all, I'm still here though I still don't know why and I'm doubting that time will ever tell.


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## Tover26

Thank God. I just got a job offer with another group and accepted it. It'll be like going backwards 8 years in my career, but to be honest, I'm looking forward to it the way you anticipate a vacation. Somehow things keep rolling forward in spite of the marital situation. I also finally told some people at work about the divorce (edited to add: that my wife asked me for 2nd day in the new job back in September '11 prior to DDay#1) (though none of the other details) and OMG that was like a weight coming off my shoulders. 

New job role starts Monday 4/2nd. Finally, some good news. i was getting scared we'd get way past page20 before something really good happened.


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## Shaggy

I thought you were trying to R?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

What divorce?


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## happyman64

Tover,

I am glad you found a job. It is better to have one in these trying times.

Keep moving forward.

HM64


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## Complexity

You're getting divorced?


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## Tover26

Ah, I see what happened there. Sorry. Miscommunication on my part... I meant that I told some coworkers about how my wife asked for a divorce my 2nd day in the new job back in September. 

Apologies and thank you.


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## Shaggy

Well at least you know we are paying attention to what you write.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tover26

Just a quick update... new job's 1st week appears to be going well. I've got stuff that I'm doing and I think I'm doing it well. So that is a huge relief off my mind. Though I find that whenever I start feeling overly hopeful about anything in the future, I tend to trigger really bad, mind movies start up again, nightmares, and after weeks of nothing... voices came back today. At least I've got a job I'm doing well and know how to do it well that I can kind of autopilot my way through.

The 180 thing is going well too. The more I pull away - put up a 40' rope swing for the kids and started about 3 different home projects in since the last update - the more my wife seems to actually pay attention. We had a joint counselling session last week that was an unmitigated disaster. She wouldn't talk so I shared probaby way too bluntly and honestly exactly what I thought about the therapist and my wife's progress. This week is her 1 year anniversary of sharing I Love Yous with the bdsm guy and their first "this is how you need to divorce him..." planning session. Walking out of joint therapy, I just refused to talk. Days turned into a week turned into silence and then my wife asked me if I'd go on a date with her. She took me to a bed and breakfast and there I heard her say something for the very first time... 

This is what she said, "I feel like I'm trying, how am I doing? It seems these things aren't working. How can I help you and do better?" We began talking and it felt like she listened. We talked for maybe 30 hours... and while exhausting it seems that at least some of it sunk in. We'll see.

I'm still struggling with all the normal affair stuff but at least for me, I finally feel like she is trying with me rather than against me. The difference seems a bit odd... but to it matters. "I'm going to SAA meetings! See that's PROOF of my desire to reconcile and shows how much I love you! Hah!" vs "I have an SAA meeting tonight. After I'd like to talk with you about this topic or this topic. Is there something else you'd rather do?"


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## happyman64

Tover,
You have been through a lot. I a, glad the new job went well this week.

Judge your wife by her actions. I think the increase and openness in communication between you two is a good sign.

Just keep taking it one day at a time.

HM64
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

I'm glad you've had such a good week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Beowulf

Tover26 said:


> Just a quick update... new job's 1st week appears to be going well. I've got stuff that I'm doing and I think I'm doing it well. So that is a huge relief off my mind. Though I find that whenever I start feeling overly hopeful about anything in the future, I tend to trigger really bad, mind movies start up again, nightmares, and after weeks of nothing... voices came back today. At least I've got a job I'm doing well and know how to do it well that I can kind of autopilot my way through.
> 
> The 180 thing is going well too. The more I pull away - put up a 40' rope swing for the kids and started about 3 different home projects in since the last update - the more my wife seems to actually pay attention. We had a joint counselling session last week that was an unmitigated disaster. She wouldn't talk so I shared probaby way too bluntly and honestly exactly what I thought about the therapist and my wife's progress. This week is her 1 year anniversary of sharing I Love Yous with the bdsm guy and their first "this is how you need to divorce him..." planning session. Walking out of joint therapy, I just refused to talk. Days turned into a week turned into silence and then my wife asked me if I'd go on a date with her. She took me to a bed and breakfast and there I heard her say something for the very first time...
> 
> This is what she said, "I feel like I'm trying, how am I doing? It seems these things aren't working. How can I help you and do better?" We began talking and it felt like she listened. We talked for maybe 30 hours... and while exhausting it seems that at least some of it sunk in. We'll see.
> 
> I'm still struggling with all the normal affair stuff but at least for me, I finally feel like she is trying with me rather than against me. The difference seems a bit odd... but to it matters. "I'm going to SAA meetings! See that's PROOF of my desire to reconcile and shows how much I love you! Hah!" vs "I have an SAA meeting tonight. After I'd like to talk with you about this topic or this topic. Is there something else you'd rather do?"


Here's my opinion Tover. In the beginning she was panicking, grasping at straws. See I'm doing this. See I'm doing that. She was desperate to latch n to something that would show you she was trying to fix things. Now that things have settled down somewhat and she is more hopeful that you are going to stay she is able to concentrate more on the marriage and healing you. I also think the weekend she spent alone while you took the kids camping was a confidence builder for both her and you. She is now turning to you for guidance and that will open up the floodgates of real honest communication. I think that is a very good sign. I am happy to hear about the job and that you are finding a way to deal with things. I'm still praying for you.


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## Tover26

Thanks for the support guys. It has been a good week. First one in a long time. I have a mountain of projects to consume my time if I ever feel I need it but for now, the one day at a time thing is working as is giving her lots of space. Perhaps one of the grand ironies of the entire experience we go through is the insistence of love and trust (and we give it to them far longer than we should) when they're cheating and once outed, the insistence of love and trust while they're giving us no reason at all to believe in their capacity for love or their capability to be trustworthy. 

Tonight will be an interesting discussion. Her father acted as an enabler of her affairs, drug use, alcohol use, and he and his wife gave her "tips" on how to make love to a woman. I've cut him out entirely and, while I've made it clear I don't care if my wife talks with him (he lives very far away), I do care if she is talking about infidelity of any kind, drugs, alcohol, and topics that would be destructive to the family. I sent him and his wife very detailed emails explaining that they were no longer welcome in my life until they could abide by simple basic rules, and that they were not welcome in my daughter's lives until I could trust that they would be positive examples for them. 

It has taken him 5 weeks to realize the truth of this and in the past 3 days he has bombarded my wife with phone calls, texts, and his wife also. So we're going to have a talk tonight about how this is going to work. I am not going to tell her she can't have a relationship with her father. She however feels she can't because it would create a problem with us. So tonight is the 'daddy' talk about her father. Should be fun.


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## happyman64

Good Luck on the Daddy Talk Tover.

Your wife needs very clear guidelines.


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## Beowulf

happyman64 said:


> Good Luck on the Daddy Talk Tover.
> 
> Your wife needs very clear guidelines.


:iagree:

I also find it very heartening that she is stressing her marriage over her father. That to me would seem to be a big sign where her loyalties are.


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## Tover26

Conversation with her dad went well. She basically said that we are trying to work things out and I have severed contact with him because of the role he played her affairs and that to be true to her recovery and to me she needed to define some rules for any interaction with him. He told her how wonderful she was and then ended the call. 

About an hour before that, we got another email from her lover. Basically a good bye but it called into question a number of things that she has told me are the gospel truth for months now. She celebrated that, because his is so honorable and would not want to lose face, that he will truly never contact us again and completely missed the parts that make her story to date on any number of points a bunch of bullsh!t. Meanwhile, he also alluded to things that I feel he shouldn't know based on when she sent the NC letter and swore him off in December. 

It kind of messed me up bad and she responded by taking things she had finally come to grips with and rewriting the past into new flavors to defend her positions about loving him, loving me, plans for divorce, and their future together. Repeatedly, and boom! there we go right back to square zero with the lying. Big sigh.


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## Chaparral

Tover26 said:


> Conversation with her dad went well. She basically said that we are trying to work things out and I have severed contact with him because of the role he played her affairs and that to be true to her recovery and to me she needed to define some rules for any interaction with him. He told her how wonderful she was and then ended the call.
> 
> About an hour before that, we got another email from her lover. Basically a good bye but it called into question a number of things that she has told me are the gospel truth for months now. She celebrated that, because his is so honorable and would not want to lose face, that he will truly never contact us again and completely missed the parts that make her story to date on any number of points a bunch of bullsh!t. Meanwhile, he also alluded to things that I feel he shouldn't know based on when she sent the NC letter and swore him off in December.
> 
> It kind of messed me up bad and she responded by taking things she had finally come to grips with and rewriting the past into new flavors to defend her positions about loving him, loving me, plans for divorce, and their future together. Repeatedly, and boom! there we go right back to square zero with the lying. Big sigh.


I still think he is spying on you. I would be surprised if he doesn't know about your thread.

You should have your computers wiped clean, some phones can also be currupted to.


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## Eli-Zor

chapparal said:


> I still think he is spying on you. I would be surprised if he doesn't know about your thread.
> 
> You should have your computers wiped clean, some phones can also be currupted to.


Indeed , good advice .

I still don't get why you have not shut down the email, its an avenue that enables him to cause you pain .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf

I agree. I would not give any credence to what that POS says. The only thing that I would pay any attention to is your wife's actions. It sounds like she is doing everything she can to demonstrate remorse and rebuild you trust. I would focus completely on that.


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## Shaggy

Could the dad be in contact with him ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

Tover26 said:


> About an hour before that, we got another email from her lover. *Basically a good bye but it called into question a number of things that she has told me are the gospel truth for months now. She celebrated that, because his is so honorable and would not want to lose face, that he will truly never contact us again and completely missed the parts that make her story to date on any number of points a bunch of bullsh!t.* Meanwhile, he also alluded to things that I feel he shouldn't know based on when she sent the NC letter and swore him off in December.
> 
> *It kind of messed me up bad and she responded by taking things she had finally come to grips with and rewriting the past into new flavors to defend her positions about loving him, loving me, plans for divorce, and their future together. Repeatedly, and boom!* there we go right back to square zero with the lying. Big sigh.


I am struggling to understand this. Can anyone explain?


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## Beowulf

warlock07 said:


> I am struggling to understand this. Can anyone explain?


Its probably best if Tover clarifies but my understanding was that he revealed more details in a farewell bomb. Tover got upset at these details because in his mind it called into question what he thought was the truth. He felt that he had been trickle truth'd again. She tried to reexamine what she had told him in light of these new details but he isn't buying it. I and some others think this POS OM is somehow still spying on them and collecting data to use in his little game and that's where this info may have come from.


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## Tover26

She has long insisted and part of our post-nup is her insistence they never met in person or that she had sex with others. This email, below with names removed to protect me and the guilty, calls into question... 
- Postnup conditions, though this by itself doesn't allow me to trigger it
- Prostitution...?! WTF?

At the end of the day that thing that really bothered me was when she finished reading it, she turned to me with a big smile and said basically, "Well we'll never hear from him again. I know him. Once he makes a promise or gives his word, he'll stick to it. He's very consistent and honorable that way. So that's true, but all the rest of this is a lie." 

I wouldn't rule out her dad being in contact with him. If her dad shows up here, my Glock and a restraining order are all he will find.


________________________________

It has been a few weeks. I see that you and she are too cowardly and pathetic to call me. Believe you me when I say I thought a lot about doing the things I could do. The sad thing is that I realized something. I will share this with you and then you will not ever hear from me again. My favorite girl was sucking my **** and I was thinking about how delicious the same experience has been with WIFE. WIFE you are a ****ing hot piece of ass. There is nothing TOVER or even the world could do to take that away from you. I loved you and you love me. You will never forget me. The time we shared in Utah certainly but all the other times both together and by digital sex methods will live on with me, in you as you recall how it felt to have me buried in you and spraying cum down your throat. LOLZ. Certainly with TOVER as he cries hisself to sleep each night with bad dreams of how hot you are with me. I realized I do not don't need revenge because forever is truth and truth is forever.

Forever, WIFE you are a hot piece of ass and you pledged yourself to me. You need that. TOVER can't or won't not give it to you like only I can. You know where to to find. TOVER knows you know. Any trust you might pretend to rebuild will never stand up to the hot burning lust and love we shared. TOVER you are pathetic and that is why she never loved you. You knew and she was terrified you knew long before you acted on it and I can't imagine a world where a coward like you can make this work. Just think of it... the woman you married and had kids with has been cheating on you the whole marriage. She burned so hot for me that whether you rocked her world to the point you had epiletical fits - YOU WERE NOT ENOUGH and SHE CAME TO ME AGAIN AND AGAIN FOR MORE. And get this... most of the time, I wasn't even there you mother****er! Talking with me and texting with me was enough to complete her sex cycle all those times you thought you rocked her world AND FAILED. Will that change? No. It is a forever truth. Here is another truth, she loves me. Sure she might be mad at me but I never promised her love. I promised her Lust. As her master, I drove orgasms through her you never could you fat ****. WIFE, your anger is because you confuse Love and Lust and your truth is you need both to be happy and fulfilled. You will never be fulfilled with someone like TOVER because he leaves a void in your life where you can't be happy pretending to not like liquer, even weed, even sex, even sex with lots of people, and lets not forget your hopes to have sex be a way to earn money. I have scores of girls just like you WIFE, but only you fell into my heart and soul. I can still put you out there for the world and like a hot sex toy you can ride the world to fame, climax, and fortune just like you wanted. And THAT truth is forever too. You know where to find me. I don't love you anymore but I know what makes you tick and I'm not below a hot **** for fun and money.

TOVER I know it was you, on pal, asking about the pledge video. Choke on this... it was a hot pledge. She gave herself to me like she never gave herself to anyone and it made her hot and horny. Have you heard of it? If she and me were closer, she'd be the hotwife and you'd be the chubby pathetic loser in the background watching his wife getting ****ed by man and woman and man and woman and so on until she literally can't move except to beg for more. Our video of her pledge... you might find on the net. It's out there. But it shows forever truths that may or may not help you and WIFE. If you're getting divorced, bravo. That is the right thing to do. If not, I'm sorry but I just don't not see how a married family survives something like sexual enslavement! LOLZ. She was so hot that night. I took her up the ass when the video was done and she almost used me up like a cum hungry sex demon! When we collapsed after, she used your stupid dress to wipe her ass blood off my ****. She ever do that for you? No. She pledge herself to you and show it? No. She tell you the truth about how I broke up with her? No. I will. She offer you her ring as part of the pledge? No, not even as part of your ridiculous marriage she cares so little for. She offered it to me and I said no you would notice. That email from Dec [the NC contact letter] really threw me for a loop I thought it must be a decoy or a test. I broke up with her in October when she freaked out about the polygraph. My girls need to be stronger. My girls would go into the polygraph masterbating and screaming out their answers and getting off on the truth. WIFE, you'll never be free while you lie. You are a sex demon and your fire is lust. Let it burn and get away from the wet blanket you pretend to love.

There is no revenge needed. Your god will let this go but never forget who owns you *****. You won't hear from me again. I am cutting off contact with you. LOLZ.

- Incubus In You Forever


----------



## Shaggy

So did she go to utah? 

Perhaps it's time she take another polygraph test?


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## Will_Kane

*she turned to me with a big smile *

How she could have a big smile while reading that I can't comprehend. Extremely disturbing she could have a big smile, even if she thought this was the last message from him.

Her using the word "honorable" in connection with him is also extremely disturbing.

Meanwhile, he is angry about having lost to you. I doubt you have heard the last from him.


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## Beowulf

This guy sounds like a child reading a bad porno script. If it wasn't hurting you so much I would be laughing at his over the top crap.

Let me ask you, what was it in this email that you question? Was it the thing about Utah? Did your wife go to Utah? If not then this whole email was bunk. If so, I would bet that he found out by spying on you guys somehow and used it to concoct this story.

He mentioned something about a video. Did that give you pause to doubt her story? How so?

I'm sorry if my questions are painful in any way but from how you described her reaction I can't believe there is any veracity in his statements. She would have paused uncomfortably or trembled a bit if anything were true. Instead she was happy to find out its finally over. Either she is the greatest actress in the world or she is genuine in her remorse. And I read her comments on the other board. Meryl Streep she is not.


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## Beowulf

Will_Kane said:


> *she turned to me with a big smile *
> 
> How she could have a big smile while reading that I can't comprehend. Extremely disturbing she could have a big smile, even if she thought this was the last message from him.
> 
> Her using the word "honorable" in connection with him is also extremely disturbing.
> 
> Meanwhile, he is angry about having lost to you. I doubt you have heard the last from him.


Look, by no means am I defending her but if I were harassed like the Tovers have been I would latch on to any hope that it would be over. Furthermore, she knows that every email triggers Tover and I'm sure she wanted him to feel relieved that it was over so they can continue building positively toward each other. At least that would be how I would react.


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## warlock07

She was defending him and his honor after reading that? The rabbit hole goes down much deeper. There is still truth to be told.


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## Shaggy

You do need to talk to her about how she is viewing him. She's speaking nicely of him, defending him - when she should be viewing him as threat #2 to her marriage - right behind herself which is threat #1.

In counseling you might want to bring up talking about how she is again apparently romanticizing him. 

BTW - I hope by now you've burned the wedding dress in question.


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## bryanp

Certainly time for another polygraph. She defends him and claims he is honorable? What is wrong with this picture? Do you feel special and proud that she is your wife?


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## dymo

Polygraph didn't work the first time. Why would it now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

I agree with Beowulf, the OM/ men/boys are playing you like a cheap drum. Unless you are somehow enjoying this, get a new computer, phones etc. and say nothing by email to anyone he has contacted or may have addresses to about your situation. If you think you've got it bad what about his miserable fantasy of a life. Whatever you think, he's thinking he lost your wife to you. Your wife was just naively playacting and it got out of hand.

You know he is technically savy to have set up several untraceable emails (at least by you). Untill you do what can be done to have him found or do whats necessary to block him you are going to risk your families future.

Of course your wife smiled and was happy. She thought his bs was obvious (pathetic is what it actually was) and you would hear from him no more.


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## Tover26

Wedding dress is nowhere to be found. Until it shows up, I'm operating on the fact that she gave it to him. I talked to my attorney re: the postnup and he doesn't think this is enough of a smoking gun to have the postnup stand. Sighs. Attorney said to basically contact the guy and tell him we're getting divorced, monitor their behavior, and that alone creates the postnup situation. I wasn't even tempted by this because I don't want this guy in my daughter's lives.

No, I'm not proud that she is my wife. Yes, I did talk to her about romanticising him. We were doing pretty well too until this. Now everything is kind of blown up, not really back at square one or any square. 

Yes, it is pathetic. I enjoy how the writing styles keep changing though.


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## lordmayhem

Isn't that the time she made a masturbation video for this sicko OM while wearing the wedding dress and she was on her period?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

You know it would be very telling if you did tell the POS that you were divorcing her. Tell no one you did this.

just say - decided I can do better than used things. I divorcing her.

Then sit back and see who contacts who and when people ask you things.

Do you think he coached her on the first polygraph? Perhaps that's why she failed - since she freaked on everything?


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## warlock07

How can anyone lose the wedding dress? What does she have to say about it?

And she was with him when she made the pledge? (Have you seen the pledge ? or was it just emails that you saw?)


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## lordmayhem

He saw the very graphic video of her masturbation/pledge to OM I think. OM even posted a gloryhole video of a woman that looks like his WW.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OldWolf57

did she go to Utah ???


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## warlock07

lordmayhem said:


> He saw the very graphic video of her masturbation/pledge to OM I think. OM even posted a gloryhole video of a woman that looks like his WW.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



yeah, but the email seems to suggest otherwise. That he was there when she had her marriage dress.


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## Eli-Zor

I still cannot understand WHY you have not locked him out of your lives, email, Facebook everything. This guys is an ass and is pushing every button he can and you are allowing him to . I would discount most of what he is saying and move on .

As for her wedding dress , if this is a deal breaker and as she is a practiced pathological liar have a decent post nup drawn up. 

Personally I would start divorce proceedings and let her know she has a limited time to answer every question truthfully or D will not be withdrawn . Your wife is extremely versed is playing you , I am amazed that you can believe anything she says.

Regarding contact with her parents, for your own good and that of your children enforce NC . These people are not to be in yours or their lives ever again .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

I think he is being played by group of people that are simply doing all this for their own sick entertainment. He should have done everything possible to have them tracked down or had the authorities tell him it was impossible.

This group is trying to break him and it looks like they are well practiced at doing so.


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## Morrigan

Ok, I've not commented before but if I may offer a WS and a woman's perspective.

I've read most of your thread and if I were in your wife's shoes I would have taken the statement that you wouldn't be contacted anymore and focused on that too. You've both gone to hell and back and any glimmer of hope for her to save her marriage would be welcomed imo. I didn't see her statement as romanticizing him but trying to assure you that you could both move on now. I still think she's so afraid of making a mistake and ending her marriage that she is making mistakes by saying the wrong things. I went through a similar period where I was terrified of triggering Beowulf and that he would divorce me. So much so that I couldn't always think straight and ended up saying exactly the wrong thing to him. And from what you've written you are just searching for a way to end the marriage and not really trying to work through reconciliation. I know what you've gone through is painful to the extreme but if you keep on this way you're going to live in limbo for the rest of your life. If you can't work on forgiving her then you should go your separate ways. That's just how I see things from my perspective.


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## Tover26

Oh hi Morrigan, welcome to the thread. 

The answer to all your questions is really the whole he said/she said thing. The only real "evidence" if you will is the missing wedding dress. How does one lose a wedding dress? Simple, you pack it up and drive 2000 miles to Utah with it so that when you meet up with your DOM, you can fulfill his instructions which were to strip out of the dress while masturbating and as she orgasms to say a very specific pledges each time. I have not seen the video but as the guy notes "it's out there on the internet". And it really bugs me that it is... part of me wishes I could let it go but either I'm not there yet or there are too many things still floating around.

I can see my wife being in panic mode and over-reacting... the thing that bothers me is that when she over-reacts, the story changes. And not just in little ways. An easy example here is that she finally owned up to being in love with the guy. I know that. She showered it all over her emails and videos to him! The thing that changed was months of insistence that it was a sick internet fantasy and she was just going along with it and didn't love him at all. So.... even though I knew it and had called her out on this numerous times, the fact that her story changes over something like this suggests to me that there is still more to the story to tell. 

At a certain point, I get that there is a worst case (probably not as a bad as I imagine it is) but that I certainly haven't seen the worst truth yet. Do I need to know for reconciliation? The fact that I'm obsessed with it makes it feel like I do, but at the same time I know I don't, logically. I'm still thinking about the "letting him know we're getting divorced" and then watching what happens. The debate is whether that invites him back into her life, my kids' lives, etc. In an actual divorce, she'll end up with whoever she ends up with. I guess I don't want it to be him. I have a hard time imagining a worser known evil maybe.

My wife finished her 90 in 90 yesterday. She's going to a weekend church conference with some friends from our congregation. I'm going to a survivalist training camp to exhaust myself and my kids will be with my parents. Job is going well. There are a lot of reasons to "feel" hopeful but whenever I look into the future I still don't see myself with her, see "us" being happy ever again, and I still don't trust her. 

To some of the other posts... there is a postnup and NOT cutting off certain email accounts is the best and easiest way of catching any slip ups that would trigger the postnup. That's why. The wedding dress isn't a deal breaker... hell when we were dating had I suspected a potential for any of this stuff there wouldn't have been a next date.


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## Chaparral

Wouldn't you have known if she drove 2000 miles to meet up with the other man? Did I miss something?


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## warlock07

Do you think she might have mailed the wedding dress to him? Are you concerned that this is false R? Has she offered any more information that you did not find on your own?


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## Beowulf

chapparal said:


> Wouldn't you have known if she drove 2000 miles to meet up with the other man? Did I miss something?


Tover,

Morrigan is sleeping in this morning so I'll take it upon myself to respond.

Man are you me in a nutshell.

You are looking for an excuse to trigger the post-nup and divorce her. I did the same thing (no post-nup but not any different). For about three months I waited fully expecting Morrigan to screw up so I could divorce her and say "well I tried, not my fault." Guess what. She never screwed up. So all my bottled up emotions exploded and I nearly drove her into a nervous breakdown.

Are you going to live this way for the rest of your life. Always looking over your shoulder waiting to see if the POSOM is going to contact you? Forever investigating to try to catch your wife doing something bad enough to trigger your post-nup? My God man, what kind of life have you doomed yourself to? Have you thought "what if she never screws up?" You will eventually drive yourself so crazy you'll be the one to have the nervous breakdown. Where will that leave your daughters? Without a healthy father to take care of them? I really feel awful about what has gone on but this self flagellation needs to end one way or another.


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## Chaparral

There has also been a move. Things get misplaced when moving. But in any event its history and she is repentent. Save your family, you are the leader and its going to take the most strength you have ever mustered. Don't throw yourself under the bus. It was a fantasy, nasty true, but still a fantasy.

Good luck and even more prayers.


----------



## dymo

Tover doesn't need an excuse to leave. No BS does. An affair is enough. And Mrs. Tover's affairs went much further than most.

I sometimes question whether Tover staying in an R is in his best interests. So far, staying in R has cost him his job, his health, and a firm grip on his sanity. (Seriously, has any other BS on these boards ever got to the point of hearing voices?) 

Yet Tover staying. And I'd bet he isn't quite sure why. He shouldn't be scolded for looking for reasons to leave when frankly he has few reasons already to stay. And assuming it doesn't become abuse, he shouldn't be chastised for honestly expressing his feelings about his wife and his marriage. This needs to be processed, not bottled up. And after several D-Days and constant trickle-truth, there is a lot to process.


----------



## Beowulf

dymo said:


> Tover doesn't need an excuse to leave. No BS does. An affair is enough. And Mrs. Tover's affairs went much further than most.
> 
> I sometimes question whether Tover staying in an R is in his best interests. So far, staying in R has cost him his job, his health, and a firm grip on his sanity. (Seriously, has any other BS on these boards ever got to the point of hearing voices?)
> 
> Yet Tover staying. And I'd bet he isn't quite sure why. He shouldn't be scolded for looking for reasons to leave when frankly he has few reasons already to stay. And assuming it doesn't become abuse, he shouldn't be chastised for honestly expressing his feelings about his wife and his marriage. This needs to be processed, not bottled up. And after several D-Days and constant trickle-truth, there is a lot to process.


And that was exactly my point. He is forcing himself into a kind of limbo that is hell for him. He either needs to leave the baggage behind and really work toward R or realize that he's not going to get beyond everything and file. This constant checking is killing him. For example, he won't get rid of the email address because he needs it to check up on his wife but every time the POSOM contacts him he relives the pain again. He needs to delete the damned email so the POSOM can't contact them or he needs to realize that he doesn't and never will trust his wife again and file. This middle position is destroying him piece by piece.


----------



## bandit.45

Tover needs to move on. I don't believe his wife is genuine at all. She's a hardcore sex addict. She either needs to go to work in a brothel or get herself to a nunnery. She has no ability to be wife to any man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

I have a feeling Tover does want to move on but wants to get enough evidence to have the post nup broken so he gets the payout


----------



## Complexity

I think it's beyond sex addiction. This is someone with serious mental issues, the wedding dress thing is just insane. I sort of pity her to be honest. Trover has every right to move on but I wonder what will happen when he's permanently out of her life, she'll be thrown to wolves.


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## Tover26

Almostrecovered said:


> I have a feeling Tover does want to move on but wants to get enough evidence to have the post nup broken so he gets the payout


It's a postnup. I.E. an agreement for how a divorce would go. The only real payout I get is a much more favorable and involved role in my daughter's lives. It's not like winning the lotto. If you remove my daughter's from the equation, I never would have put this thread up... the divorce would have occurred after DDay#1 and I never would have learned about all the other stuff. And, I would have been fine to not learn that other stuff. This thread is quite long so lets break down some of the questions that have come up... yes, she went to Utah and did that stuff. I know because I thought she was taking the kids for a summer break to see grandparents, cousins, aunts, and uncles. I was working and with the family dynamic where it was, I thought this would be a good chance for her to "get away" and think more clearly. Of course, had I known that she had other plans for this trip, it never would have happened. 

Beowulf, you're right. It is killing me piece by piece. *The accounts have to stay open *because the instant she re-engages or relapses, I need to be able to prove it so I can go for total custody and some kind of supervised visitation rights for the wife. Without it, a joint sharing arrangement will put the kids with her for however long she has them, mess the kids up emotionally, and cripple me financially way more than a normal divorce would. I'm not sticking around waiting to catch her so I can better justify a divorce; that's stupid as I had that justification months ago. 

As with any situation involving people, there are good and bad times. The good times are few and far between and when they happen I have an awareness that they aren't going to last very long. However, maybe they will. I look forward to one day being past this. For now though I need to stay here and if I die piece by piece, I know I can stand before God and know I did my utmost.


----------



## Chaparral

What does your wife admit about the Utah trip? Has the OM ever mentioned meeting up with her there before?

By reading your emails the OM could have known about the trip and made the rest up. Just a possibility. It just sounds like she immediately discounted the possibility and was happy he said he was going to leave you alone. It looks like she would have shown guilt at reading about the Utah trip and immediately focused on that.

Good luck.


----------



## Beowulf

Up until now I have been willing to give Mrs. Tover the benefit of the doubt because she seemed like she was doing everything to atone for her cheating. But now knowing that she went to Utah I can certainly understand why Tover is constantly suspicious and feels he doesn't have the full story. If I tried to once again justify things by saying that the POSOM got that info by hacking into their private correspondence it would feel hollow. At some point I started to feel like I was rationalizing her explanations just like a cheating spouse rationalizes their hurtful deeds. At this point I'm not willing to do that. Tover I feel for you in a very large way and I agree you aren't getting the whole story. I fear short of a series of polygraph tests you never will know it all. And probably not even then. I'm so sorry you're going through this. I only hope some day if your wife gets enough help maybe she can tell you everything that happened. Do what you have to do and make sure to take care of yourself. All I can say at this point is...damn.


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## Almostrecovered

By "pay out" I meant a better divorce settlement including custody


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## Will_Kane

Tover,

I think you are doing the right thing. I hear that you would divorce, but you can't take the chance that your wife would resume the life where she obeys her dom without question and have any type of custody of your kids, where your kids could be put at risk.

So, you wait and watch, maybe secretly hoping she resumes the affair in a way you can prove, so you can finally be rid of your wife and also protect your kids from her through the custody provisions of the post-nup.

It has been my thought as I followed this thread that your wife has a deep-seated mental problem, it's not just a fetish that she can control when she needs to, such as when she's around the kids. That said, deep-seated mental problems sometimes are never cured, almost definitely they are not cured by six months of addicts anonymous-type self help. 

Your wife's actions, the lesbian affair, the making of videos, the renouncing of vows, the traveling thousands of miles to have sex with strange men because her dom told her to, are unique to this forum. It is very, very different than any other "affair" being discussed here. In my opinion, it is not an "affair" at all but rather a mental illness. It might take years working closely with a psychiatrist to help her.

I admire what you are doing for the sake of your kids. Truly, they might be in grave danger if you were to divorce and she had any type of custody. Stay vigilant and take one day at a time.


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## morituri

Tover26 said:


> It is killing me piece by piece


This is not good. Please seriously consider getting some counseling for yourself. As good as this forum is for emotional support, it cannot take the place of good counseling.


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## Beowulf

morituri said:


> This is not good. Please seriously consider getting some counseling for yourself. As good as this forum is for emotional support, it cannot take the place of good counseling.


You're right Mori. We can't give him the support he really needs. I feel so crappy he's going through this.


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## Shaggy

So now that she has done her SA program, it's time for her to focus on getting you through this. Enough time has been given to her to fix her messed up head and morals. I think it's time to figure out the heal Tover plan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf

Shaggy said:


> So now that she has done her SA program, it's time for her to focus on getting you through this. Enough time has been given to her to fix her messed up head and morals. I think it's time to figure out the heal Tover plan.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Damn right.


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## Tover26

Ah, back and recovered from the survivalist camp. Nothing like hours of hiking with weight, MI movies at night (k, wasn't super survivalist), shooting stuff, practicing caveman skills, and Saturday at about 3 pm it began to downpour with lightning and torrential rain. I laid down in my hammock and fell asleep with the dog occassionally wanting reassurance. Most of the others left. I did not. I had covered my contingencies and found it relaxing Saturday when I was the only one out of 23 people who stayed the night. Sunday morning, I packed up and drove 3 hours home through a national forest. 

I often come on here hoping and wishing for a grand "Aha!" epiphany that makes it all okay. I don't have it yet. Through her 90 in 90 and ongoing 1x a week SAA meetings and sponsor-step work and expensive therapist, this is where we are on the original questions... 
1. Is she a lesbian or bisexual? *She has agreed that under certain circumstances, she is bicurious.* As I would say, a "conditional bisexual". She seems to understand at least the conditions and the postnup would make any relapse here not in her best interest.
2. Is she a serial cheater? Of course there is no way to know till she does it again. On the one hand, her father is. On another hand, her emails and stories to the #Blackmail Guy and #Lesiban suggest she had multiple affairs throughout our marriage. She also told her dad and step-mother this same story. I'm the only one who got the "I was lying to make myself seem cool to these people". *Part of the postnup is another very focussed polygraph on a single question. "Besides #Lesiban and your husband, have you had any physical sexual contact with anyone else?" If she fails, it won't matter to me if it was #Blackmail POSOM or anyone else, I will trigger the postnup* at this point because a) it is a condition of the postnup and b) she has been maintaining fervently that she never met #Blackmail in Utah and that he is lying about having met, *****'d her out, the wedding dress, and the multiple other As she told #Blackmail, #Lesbian, and her own parents about. I figure if after 6 months of "recovery and reconciliation" she is still lying about this issue, then there isn't much point. I can't do this again and I'm not super-inclined to sit around waiting for it to happen again be it mental, fetish, addiction, weak will, or anything else. *She is working with her therapist on anxiety regarding the polygraph. I have a date I have not shared but if she hasn't retaken it by that date, I'm going to insist on it. She has already "not passed" this very same question 2x, once in Nov and again in Dec.*
3. Sexual enslavement WTF?! I don't even know how to phrase this as an issue, but the last email I posted her from #Blackmail POSOM pretty much sums up the issue for me. How can I compete with, and more importantly how can I ever make her happy, ...errr, how can she be happy with a plain vanilla dude like me when sexual enslavement is her end-all be-all aspiration? There really is no answer here at all yet. She says that she had opened herself up to things and had no boundaries up when this guy showed up and systematically manipulated her into this. Okay... so she is either really stupid (no, I don't think so), or she fell out of love with me and was looking for a replacement. I think she actually fell in love with this guy and dreamed of having a future with him. He was her exit affair. She denies this vehemently but the problem I have is that I have so far been right about everything, and she has been consistently lying through her teeth until the truth gets exposed. Being married to someone you no longer love sucks. Falling in love long distance with a manipulative control freak promising you bdsm heaven on earth makes it all worse and I believe she got desperate and abdicated personal integrity, accountability, and just went along with whatever he wanted. Had he been closer to us in DC, I have no doubt that she'd be in some sex dungeon somewhere being rented out as a toy and neither I nor the kids would know where she disappeared to... and y'know what? It completely sucks that that isn't exactly what happened because then I'd be mourning my wife's odd dissappearance instead of all this other bull****. *Until she understands why she fell out of love with me, and why she failed to take the high road in actually divorcing me or even trying to address the fact that she never once complained or voiced anything similar to "Hey, I'm sort of falling out of love with you and it's getting easier and easier for me to blame you for things..." I give our R a 0.0001% chance of actually succeeding. * I do not and never did want to be married to a woman who ever even thought, "Hey it'd be fun to be a prostitute", or "I'd sure like to have my own amateur porn site!", or "I should enslave myself to a stranger, sexually, forever! That'd be awesome!" Meanwhile, I have zero aspirations to play bdsm fetish games; it's not me.

Lets be real for a moment. I was not a perfect husband, but I tried very hard to be an awesome friend, lover, husband, father, provider, etc and so forth. We did really fun things on couple's dates, as a family, and we talked FREQUENTLY even during her ****ing affairs. I look back and except for struggling with working from home and being around the kids a lot more in 2011, I have no clue what or how I contributed to any of this. If anything, she consistently gave me every reason in the world to divorce her and I chose to fight for the marriage every single time. The more I "fought" the more she felt trapped and caged the more she justified her love for #Blackmail. Our worse fights, in a normal marriage, are sit down after the kids go to bed and talk things through kinds of fights. That's it. Sighs. :scratchhead: I guess I need more time.

______________________
So not much by way of progress and it is today the 1 year anniversary of her first sex video to him. She pulled into an empty church parking lot, stripped, masturbated, and then sexted with him all day. Every part of me wants to walk out of the house and be gone forever. Instead I put up a tetherball pole and ball for the kids and played with them. I went to work and had a great day. 

Ending the SAA 90 in 90, I actually thought it might be good to be totally chaste for 90 days just to see how she handles lack of sex. I know I wouldn't like it, but I also know I can do it no problem. We ended up agreeing to do 90 fun couple activities each day for 90 days to strengthen the "friendship" and try to find some common ground. If that fails, we'll roll into the chastity thing. There is a date by which I will push the polygraph on threat of divorce and for now I am content to let things be as they may. 

Thank you for your thoughts and support. I've done a few IC sessions and they just really upset me. I walk out ready to divorce. My focus has to be holding down a job and being here for the family such as it is. IC is distracting and annoying right now. I promise I will go to one after the divorce, or when sufficient time and answers have occured to feel like we're actually reconciling.


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## Chaparral

Why do you thing the IC is upsetting you? Are you sure you are with a good counselor that fits? I would think one should be a bit relieved after counseling.


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## Tover26

The IC can't seem to figure out how to handle me I guess. 
- You have PTSD.
- You need to get on anti-depressant meds.
- You have anxiety disorder problems.
- You have ADHD.
- You are depressed.
- You need to sleep better.
- You are codependent.

Every single time it's a different thing. _In the very last session, we ended up in a debate because he said, "Don't you understand that love can co-exist with addiction?" 

I responded, "Yes, I believe it can for CHEMICAL ADDICTION, not SEXUAL addiction."

He responded, "I think you're speaking out of anger. The real you understands they can."

Ummmm... no Mr. IC, the real me is very angry and also does not believe that sexual addiction coexists with love, are you ****ing kidding me?_

A few sessions of this and I thought I was literally going even more insane than I already feel these days. I'm looking for answers not more medication. As an epileptic, the meds I take are frequently used in all of these other conditions and except for increasing my dosage for the increased seizure activity, the core issue here is that I am trying to buy time, not medicate or self-actualize. I don't know. I'm reminded of a Dilbert where he asks his therapist, "So do you think you can help me?" and the therapist replies, "Are you kidding? I get $80/hr listening to you drone on and on. By the time I'm done with you you're going to have so many problems I'll be able to remodel my house!"


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## lordmayhem

If it was me, this IC would be *SO FIRED*. I'd be looking for another one.


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## Beowulf

lordmayhem said:


> If it was me, this IC would be *SO FIRED*. I'd be looking for another one.


I agree. He doesn't sound like he's helping you.


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## bandit.45

Tover,

A couple of days ago I posted a comment about your wife that was cruel and out of line. I want to apologize to you for my callousness and stupidity, and ask that you forgive me for my arrogance and lack of empathy. 

I have no excuse, except to offer that I was triggering badly reading your thread, started thinking about my own wayward wife's transgressions, and transferred my anger and vitriol towards her onto your wife. 

Like I said this is no excuse, only a weak reason. Being banned was a totally justified and well deserved sanction. I learned a sharp and pointed lesson that I will not forget. 

I have to remind myself that all my fellow TAM members deserve my help and support and not my disdain. Please count my lapse of good judgment to my head and not my heart. I have the utmost respect for you, I'm just ashamed I did not show it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Tower, you need to find a new IC. This one sucks, and you need a much better one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tover26

Bandit, it's all part of the journey. Don't stress it. I certainly didn't. My WW has issues and will no doubt continue to have issues, but the good and bad days and moments continue and my plan is to hold steady, do my best, and at all costs... hope for the best but be prepared for the worst; in the worst, to hold onto my daughters. 

Y'know, it's a funny thing... when I'm feeling pretty good about life, like I am today, it's easy to look back at the varied path that brought me here and remember that I chose this path consciously. There really was nothing accidental about still being here. Sometimes I look at things like my wife's wedding ring and I want to rip it off her finger and shoot it with high velocity things until it's shattered into a million fragments. The non-emotional more logical part of me goes, "It's just a ring. It means something to you, but not to her; in a divorce, she'd get it anyways. Let it go." For those of you who don't believe in rug sweeping... let me tell you, through the power of brainwashing I have literally not noticed her ring for days and days at a time. It's invisible 90%+ of the time. Ideally, I get over it. Today I feel like I might. Yesterday, I did not. 

There is a saying in books I have read in lieu of IC that basically go for 100s of pages but can be summed up as "You need the safe passage of time to give you enough distance to have perspective." I need that. I haven't had that. I still don't have that. But slowly it is mattering and with two daughters at stake, I just can't risk rushing off into divorce. Knowing how much I loved her once is a painful but powerful memory and it motivates me to hold on when I honestly can't think of a single reason why it would even matter whether I do or don't stay. 

I know this story sounds and feels insane. The farther I get from it, the more insane it feels to me too. But it's okay. I feel insane most of the time these days. There will be time for mourning and IC if/when/as a divorce happens. If not, once things are safe, I will. I promise.


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## Chaparral

And we're still supporting and praying for you and your family.


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## happyman64

Tover,

Stay sane. You deserve peace.

I know you do not see it in the foreseeable future but I truly wish it for you and you family.

Do not lose it now. Your kids need you.

My prayers to you survivor man.

HM64
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tover26

So... update. Wife passed polygraph finally. She had set a date for end of August and we got in a fight because that is more time than I want to wait. So, she went and did it. Passing that buries the issues of prostitution and porn aspirations, thank God. I guess the OM was just saying that stuff to get a rise out of her and I. It worked but I am so thankful I don't have to deal with that stuff as part of this. 

Since ending her 90 in 90 SAA program, she hasn't attended a single SAA meeting to my, her therapist, and our bishop's increasing concern. She says she is burned out, and while I can appreciate that after doing 90 of these meetings + therapy + church counselling + normal post affair drama with me + those emails from her lover... I can see her being burned out and wanting a break. At the same time, it's completely unacceptible and between all of us kicking her ass about it, she finally got re-engaged with that 12 step and is going to try and get it done or at least get back into attending a meeting a week. 

Things with us are still rocky but we're starting to have some good days finally. One of the problems I have is that during "good times" I'm painfully aware of the fact that whatever it is... so last weekend we went hiking together along a series of waterfalls and it was a perfect magical day... the way I feel about her now versus that same situation before her affairs is completely different. Honestly, I would have enjoyed the hike with anyone. There was nothing magical about being WITH HER. Before the affairs, it would have been very magical. The spark is gone and I'm open to it coming back. I'm also open to it being dead. Anyone else here with experience in this regard - does the spark ever come back?

We have crossed our own wedding anniversary date, her 1 year anniverary of any # of things with her lover, and have a lot more coming up. She tried addressing some of the bdsm/fetish stuff with me for several hours Sunday with the end result that I didn't sleep at all, had epilepsy problems all that night and Monday, and am still dragging. I don't quite see how to resolve that and some of the other issues out there. She is trying very hard though and I see her putting effort into it. I don't see myself responding normally and I feel bad for her. I don't see myself wanting to even try and when I do, it feels half-assed even to me. Completely unrelated, our daughters have begun asking a lot more perceptive questions about why she is seeing a therapist so often, why we can't go visit her dad or talk to him on the phone, etc. Kids. After all this time, they chose to get perceptive now? I am however grateful they appear to have missed all the weird stuff going on all around them when my wife had them with her lesbian lover or was talking to her one lover on the phone for hours and hours. Maybe those questions will percolate more and more as they feel safer asking them...?

So, to summarize. She passed the polygraph finally. Things seem to be smoothing out but aren't even close to normal yet.


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## Shaggy

I'm glad the polygraph got resolved. Very glad.

Have you considered having the two of you work with a sex therapist on needs wants and how to make each other happy.

Yes she really really chose badly, but she is still a person with desires. She very wisely recognized what a great catch you are and returned to the marriage. She should have some of her interests included in the bedroom. I imagine it's a hard trigger for you, but working through it and doing something to meet those interests can really help heal your marriage.

So perhaps a sex therapist can help the two of you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

Glad to hear about the poly. I suspected OM was full of it.
Hugs to you and Fighting 4


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## Machiavelli

Tover26 said:


> she finally got re-engaged with that 12 step and is going to try and get it done or at least get back into attending a meeting a week.


I don't know how it applies to so-called "sex addiction", but in AA you really have to watch out for that 13th step. KWIM?


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## Chaparral

You have been hanging so long, I think your recovery has been held up by that.

Thank God for her passing the poly. I hope as this sinks in, you will be able to be yourselves and move forward as a whole family.

I agree with shaggy, maybe a sex therapist is they way to go. I know for sure shaggy is always spot on IMO. I think most long term marriages could use a little imagination in the bedroom.

I think when you give it time, you will be fine and the feelings will come back. Almostrecovered,theguy,beowulf and eightyearscheating have all had super successful recoveries and in my opinion, they may have had even worse stories than your's.

Of course, I don't speak for them at all.

I know one key is to be able to control/lose your anger. You have to get over the notion of blind trust too. Having suffered cheating early on, I can tell you I don't miss blind trust at all and feel that has served me well. Believe me I don't fool around with overly friendly men, GNOs or anthing else that seems remotely threatening to my family.

Continued good luck and prayers

Chap


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## Chaparral

Acabado said:


> Glad to hear about the poly. I suspected OM was full of it.
> Hugs to you and Fighting 4



Who is Fighting 4?


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## Tover26

Yeah, it's weird... with the polygraph done, I feel more focussed than ever on the original issues. She's getting frustrated though because all this time has passed. She feels like she has conquered 90 in 90, determined she has addiction issues but isn't a sex addict per se, and is seeing an IC. Then she talks to me and I'm like, "Uh, you did 90 in 90 and...? So what? What did you learn? It helps but 90 in 90 is not by itself guarantee we will be successfully reconciled!" And then of course, I'm looking at it all and wondering about any level of success or stability in a timeline measured from DDay2, not whatever her timeline is. I keep telling her that understanding the Whys is harder than Why She Won't Again is harder than How is harder than having just avoided the As in the first place.

It has been hanging on for a long time. I continue to wonder how and when I get past it. So far, it's very fresh and maybe I'm being too absolute about this but without understanding stuff like why lesbian, why cheating, and why bdsm/enslavement... there's not much point in moving to the next phase. I don't want to be a straight hetero guy married to a lesbian, a cheater, or fetishist. I don't know. A sex therapist isn't going to convince me I need to sexually enslave my wife anymore than an IC or JC is going to convince me that some of this stuff is "okay" or to "let it go for the sake of the marriage". 

Good times feel like they are getting better but my wife has a well-established pattern of being really good about new things for a few weeks and then it all stops as she moves onto the next more interesting thing. When she asks, "When will you be over this?" I always reply... "When I see that you are stable and committing to the new patterns you are so happy to point out for more than a few weeks." She doesn't like that answer and so I go on and say, "Look, if I knew how long or what the end result is we'd already be there. It'll take exactly as long as it takes."

She finally went to a pyschiatrist and started taking Abilify yesterday. That'll be interesting to see what, if anything, that does.


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## Tover26

Her name on another forum was Fighting4Us until she got bored with that forum and never went back.


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## Chaparral

The way she got into her weird sex life was like every other addiction like action. She didn't plan on it just like women don't plan on getting addicted to crack/meth and then give up everything, families , jobs and friends and become crack wh0res to pay for their fun.

They can't believe what they have done but can't find a way back.

However your wife got tempted, coworker, internet surfing, etc. she got sucked in one baby step at a time until she was involved in things that would normally have never crossed her mind. Of course there was always someone there telling her , and "holding her hand" , abouthow wonderful and right it was.

Like the saying goes, "there but for the grace of God go I" (and anyone else). While I don't have friends in sex addiction that I know of. I know multidues who have lost the battle with other addictions.


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## Tover26

Heya chaparal, I wouldn't want to reconcile with a crach ***** either! 

The challenge in this is the great big @ss question out there... and I keep trying to keep these focussed on root causes as opposed to hindsight "here's what I think about..." rationalizations.

1. Is she a lesbian/bi? I mean what happened that step by step she ended up there... if she didn't have this to begin with? I cannot fathom a path for me step by step to become homosexual. There just isn't anything there for me. So we reconcile or not and this continues and one day becomes an issue yet again. There is no path forward for a straight man married to an in the closet lesbian or someone who requires bi experiences to be happy. I have not seen in my wife a capacity to refrain from happiness, like by choosing not to have bi relations, and still be happy... she gets resentful. The postnup gives me some protection here but I keep thinking that if I really love her, shouldn't I let her be who she is? She argues this with me and basically says what you said about how step by step she got so far removed from herself that she just didn't care anymore about gender. Bi-apathetic?

2. Serial? Until she cheats again it's hard to know and even harder to feel all warm and fuzzy about a future together. There are lots of stories out there about couples who reconcile and claim to be stronger... but lets be honest here for a second... are they REALLY STRONGER? I get my leg chopped off and I come through with a scintillating personality... I would accept the observation that I have a strong character trait but I AM STILL MISSING MY LEG RIGHT? The capacity for strength was there to begin with and like the first point, I have yet to see a capacity in my wife to be strong let alone "stronger after an affair". I have seen in me some strength, like securing my employment etc, that I would not have guessed I would have been able to do. Disocovering strength by pushing yoursefl past breaking point... isn't this how super villians get made in movies and comics?

3. BDSM/Enslavement thing... I'm sure all people have potential for weird things step by step and even all at once. The issue here is that at some point, my wife acted on this potential. It is so far beyond anything I ever ever ever would have even considered a possibility that when it comes up, I fall mute. I don't know how to even approach it. Step by step towards a sexual fantasy during an affair, okay. At some point, he called her names and she named herself this. It affects me on a level I really can't describe and my brain shuts down. Will time help? I don't know. It hasn't so far.

My wife has decided she isn't an addict and having completed her 90 in 90 is no longer attending SAA meetings. She says she's going to finish the other 7 steps, but has literally made zero progress since ending her 90 in 90... and THAT is the wife I have been married to for years who had the affairs. An expressed and ultimately doomed commitment rationalized away by whatever is happening RIGHT NOW. 

Always RIGHT NOW with her. And I'm looking forward and wondering why I would want to reconcile and "become stronger" with someone I don't ever see myself trusting. If I could go back in time and do it all over again, would I? Hell no. It is important to me to have my spouse be my friend. I don't want my daughters to grow up and move on with their lives and suddenly I'm left for the rest of my adult life in a marriage bereft of friendship from the person I spend most of my life and free time with. She wanted to be with girls, and lots of other people, and she wanted to be someone's pet. Not mine. Other people. Her relationships with those other people were to be built on the ashes of my life. Her bond with them was demonizing me. 

Where is the path forward? I can sense that she is getting super impatient and I keep sitting her down and telling her this, "It'll take exactly as much time as it takes. I can sense you're getting impatient. That's too bad. I'm impatient as well but this is how I feel. Out of all the billions of people on the planet there is only two people who have a snowball's chance in hell of helping with this... God and You. Your impatience reminds me of your affairs. I ask that you find a different attitude and redirect some of that energy back to your SAA work, or towards helping me understand why you needed this in your life in the first place." When things are calm and tender, it is sounds a lot like that. When it's not, this can take very abrupt forms like, "Leave me alone." 

I honestly don't know what else to do but continue to buy time moment by moment some days and day by day on good days.


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## Tover26

Well, it's been some time... so update. She has continued to do good things but continues to struggle with the really important stuff. I'll give an example in a second. The main thing is that we're still together. We still talk but it's getting hard to stay on topic as she just wants it to all be done. While there is a part of me that wants that too, there are so many triggers that I'd really rather just resolve things so they never trigger again. On my front, work and other things have continued just fine. On her side, she went to a psychiatrist who after 30 min of conversation diagnosed her with rapid cycle bipolar and put her on meds. More on that later too. Her IC work is stalling out because I don't think her therapist knows what to do next with her. She, meanwhile, has come far enough that I think she needs her therapist to have a vision of where to go next because she's finally at that point where she is questioning the ongoing value of value of therapy. 

Also there has been zero follow on since her lover's last email... at least not to anyone that has told me about it. 
_______________________________

So... I found the sex video where she makes this pledge. It is every bit as bad I always knew it would be. In some ways it was much worse. It didn't turn any of her words into lies but it certainly put into perspective the Who It Is that she is asking me to reconcile with. You might ask why I was even looking... the answer is 3fold fold: 1) I want to know with whom I am reconciling, 2) it's the easiest way to have proof that would apply to the postnup divorce agreement, and 3) she will be forever young and horny on the internet even when our kids are older than she is now; at some point, these will resurface and it will be bad and I want to know how to even attempt damage control. One of the biggest struggles I have, with this video in particular, is how happy and joyous she looks. I go back to our wedding day photos/videos and you cannot hold a candle to her demeanor, carriage, or countenance between wedding and pledge. When I told her this, she attacked me for looking and began lecturing me that that was her 2011 self, not who she is now. While that might be true, the woman in those videos isn't the woman I married either. Not knowing what to do, I continue to buy time. It's also disturbing that there are 27 sites out there (that I know of at least) with some 20 videos and 200 pictures of her. She thinks they'll be buried with time... but I have to tell you all, face recognition and with how the internet is increasingly becoming a public record for individual... I think we see a day in just a few years where you can search on a name and find their face out there no matter where it is on the internet, or take a photo of someone and do a face search for that face. 

Bipolar. Her family has a history of this but we have 8 years together where it never appeared as an issue. I'm sure that if she went to a psych right now and stated a family history of WHATEVER and described her current issues that they'd diagnose her for WHATEVER. I have a hard time believing that bipolar was much at play and struggle even now seeing it. What I saw was a woman committed to her affairs. While risky sexual behavior might be a common thread between bipolar and and her affairs, it fails to explain 8 years of marriage prior to her affairs, the actual affairs themselves, or how she has been since confronted with the truth of her affairs.


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## one_strange_otter

It's amazing you found it at all considering how the sites will share content and the same video will have different titles on different sites. Can the sites be petitioned to take them down?


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## MattMatt

one_strange_otter said:


> It's amazing you found it at all considering how the sites will share content and the same video will have different titles on different sites. Can the sites be petitioned to take them down?


Yes. Get a friendly doctor to write a letter stating that "Mrs X was mentally ill at the time these videos were made" and send that with a letter from a lawyer and some of the sites will take them down out of fear of being sued.


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## Jibril

While you can ask to have the videos/pics taken down, most sites only _really_ respond to legal pressure. Unless the person-in-question was underage, most sites really do not care what circumstances led to the situation depicted in the video. They really don't. 

I think your wife is right in this respect, Tover. Yes, she will be "immortalized" on the internet. However, I find that people generally don't care about these videos unless the people involved make a big stink about it. Calling attention to the fact that there are videos on the web of your wife, and demanding that the sites hosting these videos take them down, _will _make a big stink. Especially if you lawyer-up and threaten to fight it legally. People will get curious, and they'll look for it and see what the hullabaloo is all about. 

Remember the recent controversy with the school teacher who did porn? If the school had handled things quietly instead of firing her and making a big stinking mess, no one would care about her or her videos. 

As much as it sucks, and as much as it bothers you, I advise you to simply look the other way.


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## Chaparral

If I were going to ry and get the videos down, I would look into claiming copy right infingement. 

There is a scam? I read about last week where posrn sites have been sending huge bills to people claiming they downloaded porn with out paying for it. Many people are paying to avoid embarassment.

Have you googled any remedies for this?

Think about yopu often, wish something could be done. Are you having any good days, do you see things getting better? I guess there are a lot of things that could be worse.

How do you like your new job, I hope that is a bright spot.


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## Shaggy

File a Dmca copyright claim on the videos. They will either be taken down OR if the guy that put them counters the claim you can then use the counter to get more info on him. I bet his posts however were one time acts and he won't follow through on the counter notice, so the DMCA should work for you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tover26

One site is located in Greece... another in Taiwan... another in, etc. DMCA notices sent and attorney says it will be either a very long time for a response or we'll quickly see the videos/pictures come down. I tried to take ownership of the dating site profiles he put up of my wife with her help, but no luck at all there. 

Today is a mix of things... it's our wedding anniversary. It's also the first time my WW had sex with her teenage girl lover. In the past 4 months, there have been good and bad things that have happened. For the most part, the marriage still feels like it is struggling along. I was looking at the different stages a betrayed spouse goes through. Maybe it's the time period we're in right now, but I heard myself say for the first time "I hate you"... she wasn't around but for my part at least I feel a massive disconnect. There's no spark, there's no connection. She says she has hope and believes it will all work out. Sometimes I feel that way too. 

She asked me how things were going the other night. I asked her to be more specific. "Okay, how am I doing?" I told her that SHE is doing great. She is making tremendous personal progress as far as doing what her therapist and church is asking of her. She is reconnecting with the kids and taking a more active role in family issues she used to ignore, like talking to the kids about disciplinary issues or follow up with homework etc. 

"Okay, how are WE doing then?" she asked. I sighed and basically said what I just wrote up above. How can there be any level of connection when it's sooooo easy to imagine a life without her?

Any of you going through this... you lose the spark and recapture it, or did you somehow hold onto it the entire time? Any of you go through a 2 month+ period of obsession over how much better life would be without your wayward? How'd you get through it?


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## Shaggy

Good job on taking action on the videos!

The sites may even reveal who posted them if they get a counter claim.

As for your wife, she was a very very broken person who with your support has healed to a large degree, shell never kiely be perfect, but she's so much better now than ever.

You are going to take a while to heal. Keep being patient with yourself, and let yourself heal too.


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## Acabado

From your sig.


> She's 31 and spent 2011 falling to pieces and seeking solace with others


You wer emarried for 8 years, she was a mother for 10 years. How was she before 2011 fiasco? Was her an unenvolved mother?
I mean... I don't get what triggered that disconnection. So she got anm iphone end then things scalated from it? Got so addicted to the online drama she was ready to become a submissive sex slave to an OM across the world? To cross the gender barrier to explore her lesbian side? With a girl hald her age?
Did she really toke real, practical steps to divorce or that was fantasy to please OM?
I sounds all so bizarre...
What was the time span, 3-4 mo?
What did you read she wanted to do with your children?


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## Chaparral

Have any of thr videos been taken down?


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## Doc Who

Obviously late to the party, but after reading this, all I can say is 'HOLY HELL.'

How on earth are you still married to this psychotic woman?? I am amazed at your inner strength and willingness to help her heal.

You may on the Plain of Lethal Flatness. At some point, the brain just shuts down from all the pain. I remember not caring if my wife would fall off a cliff or not. In fact, I think I was hoping that she would cheat again so I could finally close out this horrific chapter.

I have healed and the spark is back.

But those were very gray days.


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## Tover26

Heya, just thought it was time to come back and do an update. Mixed bag as always with stuff like this.

Good:
- As far as I can tell through a variety of mechanisms, she is maintaining No Contact and also not seeking out new stuff.
- Overall health and job situation has gotten a lot more stable and for things that are just me and my daughters, or just me at work, or me doing a hobby, I've found a lot of enjoyment.
- Her lover has made good on this threat to leave us alone and for the past few months there have not been any new videos or pics posted.

Bad:
- Triggers are still awful, frequent, and horrible. 
- The financial fall out of all this has wiped out our savings from a 6 month cushion to no cushion. Credit cards are near maxxed out too. I'm not sure where or how this resolves itself because there is only so much I can do without cooperation from her. It's not like I can waive a magic wand and make more money - nor do I want to since the price of her As is what has brought us to this. For the curious, her A - and I wish I could claim this as a tax deduction - is about $30,000 so far including EVERYTHING from her losing wages because she was F'ing other people when she should have been at work to lingerie she bought for him to family artifacts that I will never replace like her wedding ring... not to mention all the health issues. I'm tempted to put up a thread about the financial cost of As as I can't find one on TAM.

Ugly:
- I can't stand coming home anymore. It's gotten easy to wake up increasingly early and go to work. Coming home kills me... my skin gets all itchy and I can't hardly stand it. I've been taking the kids out a lot rather than be here. 
- We are sleeping in different rooms and I often wake up to find that she has moved in with me. It kills me and is prompting some really early arrivals at work. She has pried open the door locks often enough they don't work and I just don't care enough to fight with her about it where the kids might overhear it.

About two months ago, I began looking for a job... that would require lots of travel or me being gone. She's doing a good job with the kids, but the financial fall out is almost as bad as the affair fallout right now. Last week I received a job offer from an employer 2,500 miles away but it was lower than I need to make it work. I'm well through another interview process that would require 80% travel and we'll see how that goes. 
- I'm feeling tired where all of the consequences seem to be my job to resolve, often alone or in face of non-cooperation from her. It isn't that she isn't open to solving the issue, it's that her solution is to "not worry about it". 
- No spark, at all. I feel like I could go weeks without even noticing her presence unless she leaves the kids stranded somewhere or our power gets shut off because she forgot to pay the power bill. None. It has become near impossible for me to see her as anything other than bisexual BDSM submissive unless I completely shut it out of my mind to endure time around her at social functions for school or church, with the kids for family stuff, etc. There is a price I pay afterwards where I just want to sleep when I am stuck at home and can't leave. 

So... interesting side effect of this is that even though I have been doing 180, it wasn't until she became aware of my looking for work elsewhere that she finally noticed. When she last informed me that she needed $2,000 and I showed her that there is not $2,000, she finally got it. She now owes our daughters $money set aside for them for college/whatever and it was very disappointing to see that she is fine with that. But suddenly, it all seemed to click and viola... 180 is working and it is so incredibly annoying because unlike the 180 principles, I actually don't want to be with her at all for weeks now. It baffles me that she won't leave. I don't know where this goes but I'm tired of looking through search results for "vanilla guy married to submissive" and she seems firmly committed to being done with this. I don't know. 

It's good to come on here and read about those of you who have recaptured the relationship, and on the flip side to read about those of you who have moved on and are doing well. I envy you.


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## Tover26

Acabado said:


> From your sig.
> You wer emarried for 8 years, she was a mother for 10 years. How was she before 2011 fiasco? Was her an unenvolved mother?
> I mean... I don't get what triggered that disconnection. So she got anm iphone end then things scalated from it? Got so addicted to the online drama she was ready to become a submissive sex slave to an OM across the world? To cross the gender barrier to explore her lesbian side? With a girl hald her age?
> Did she really toke real, practical steps to divorce or that was fantasy to please OM?
> I sounds all so bizarre...
> What was the time span, 3-4 mo?
> What did you read she wanted to do with your children?



I don't get what triggered the disconnect either. Still don't. When I ask, her answer is that it's all her fault. Nothing more, nothing less. In a nutshell, she actually had a ONS during a business trip to Florida. She came back and about 3 months later met an online Dom-wannabee; i have a suspicion that a real Dom may very well kick this guy's ass. She was with this guy for 8 months as her 154 or so 5-10 min sex videos and 3,000+ sexual photos detail. The iPhone really only played a role in capturing all the videos and pics. Without a smart phone, it would have all still happened. With the smartphone, it was so much easier to hunt down the bits and pieces they missed. He was into 3somes etc and - I think - to impress him, she sought out a 19 year old girl at her work for a 2 month affair. She got sloppy on Facebook with the girl, which is how I caught her and then followed the trail of breadcrumbs back to the beginning. 

The Dom and her lesbian lover were both helping her research divorce with the lesbian going so far as to contacting some lesbian support organizations to see if they could have a discount or free attorney. The Dom was a bit more ill where, as far as I can tell, their plan was to set up some kind of scenario, as many times as it may take, to push me into doing something (like attack her or him) to have leverage in a divorce so that she would keep the kids and then my paying support would fun their being together. It was fun learning all this. The kids were to be the tool of pushing me into this and thankfully they never documented what or how, unthankfully my imagination is apt to fill in the gaps. 

Honestly, in hindsight, I should have divorced her when I learned of the first A. My state gives a lot of consideration to adultery if you can prove it. Now, I'm just trying to tough it out for my daughters and/or wait for her to either violate the post-nup or just leave.


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## Chaparral

Do you have any idea of what might help you? Have you been getting any kind of counseling?

Will you not let her work?


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## Numbersixxx

Tover26,
went through your story. Scary stuff, man.


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## warlock07

You forced yourself to reconcile but your hear is dead..


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## Tover26

Good afternoon. I'm here at work with nothing to do and thought I'd come by and post an update. It's been about 5 months since the last update. Ironically, things continue to happen both good and bad and neutral. 

Of note, my wife went off her meds just before Christmas and made that entire break a living hell for everyone. Based on the fights following that, she found a different psychiatrist and is now being treated for bipolar, and the postnup is accordingly updated so that if she ceases her meds without consulting and working through it with a psychiatrist, that'd be a triggering condition. The new meds and her embracing bipolar treatment have made quite a big difference in her behavior and attitude. I'm liking it. 

I still struggle with intimacy with her and, after all this time, I wish I could say that it's smooth sailing but it's not. It's quiet sailing most of the time and difficult sailing at best. This month marks 2 years ago when she had already crossed all lines with her dom lover and first started talking to me about separation and divorce, when I wanted to talk to her about what we should do for our wedding anniversary in mid-May. I'm still way more aware of dates and triggers than I wish.

In mid-February, just two months ago, we were talking about her affair issues and she finally was able to own up to the fact that she loved her lover and - after all this time - to finally have a grown up conversation with her was nice but also difficult to revisit. As part of that, she reaffirmed her committment to tracking some of the outstanding issues and within 3 days had utterly stopped. To break a pattern we'd been in of 1) Commitment to <whatever>, 2) a few days of follow through, 3) stopping, 4) recognizing that it has stopped with silence, 5) my asking that we get back on track, 6) my pleading to get back on track, to lastly 7) fight/divorce conversations... I trusted her to keep her ask that she would see herself in #4 and not repeat this pattern. As a surprise incentive, I bought her a gift card and waited. Six weeks and six gift cards for her later, I asked. A week later, I pleaded. A week later I told her I wanted a divorce and began making arrangements to leave (aka 7). In honor of the pattern, she dove into a new commitment (aka 1) and I told her absolutely no more pattern repeats. I found a place to move to and amidst days and days of fighting and making arrangements to split things up, we found a quiet moment and talked. 

I would have hoped by now that both of my feet would be firmly planted inside the family but it's not like that at all. We have good times and I'm glad to be there in those good times with her but so far, none of this has been worth it. I look forward to someday seeing if this will have been worth it at least from my daughters' perspective. They're thriving. They're also coping with some of the hot/cold issues in our family between my wife and I. You'd think that it'd get easier over time and distance to handle this crap but I am so tired of the never-ending consequences. Anything good is still tainted by consequences from her affairs and bad things - obviously - are magnified in a worse and worser way. 

Still, there are a few good times and quiet times when I am glad to have stuck to this course. I look back and marvel at how dark the past was and, even though the Now is still dark, it's less dark than where I've been. Those times my kids run up to me and we have good times make it worth it. Those times that my wife acts like an actual mother, make me glad I paid some of the insane prices I paid for her to get there. She has improved by a mother a 1,000x but is still nowhere near where she was before her affairs. 

We talk a lot about boundaries, her meds, her feelings, whether bipolar played a role or not, whether her being on meds earlier might have made a difference. Occassionally, I read books about affair recovery and reconciliation or sit through a sermon about forgiveness. It's hard for me and I see how easy it would be to buy into the hype that things can be better than ever. I don't see that but I can see having a few moments here and there where perhaps it will have been worth it. She says it has been worth it but then she says a lot of things that I guess I'm expected to take at face value. 

Work continues to improve and go better and better. I've lost a lot of weight and overall health has improved many times over. I'm grateful for that. Last weekend, my daughters helped me plant a maple and small orchard of fruit trees. They were cute and amazing and I doubt moments like that would happen if we divorced. I try and hold onto that. I'll come back and check if there are any posts or questions. 

In a nutshell...
- Issue 1: bi/les. She claims that she was in an experimental mode because her lover liked her that way and she regrets every moment of it.
- Issue 2: serial cheating. She claims that she will never ever again do anything so destructive.
- Issue 3: does she need to be a sub to feel fulfilled enough to remain in a committed relationship, aka will she jump to the first time she runs into an interested dom? She claims no, never ever again.

The problem with all of these is - how do you really know? In the absence of trust, how do you find trust around core behaviors and attitudes that hurt so much and did so much damage already? I wish I knew the answers to these questions because they still very much haunt me here about a year and half from DDay#1. Shrugs. Not knowing what to do, I think I'll keep doing what I am doing - hope (in vain?) for the best but prepare the worst.


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## Acabado

Even you claim to be tired of this rollercoaster truth is you sound calmer and with all the important things covered.
I imagine it's because you can see that at worse you'll have a stabilized coparent, slowly getting back to her old self after so much destruction. 

Honestly I really couldn't imagine you guys would be still together at this point. If you make it I can't but to drop my hat.

Wish you continued healing.


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## happyman64

Tover


Compared to where you were your post is nothing short of amazing.

I give you my prayers because you have shown us men what it means to put all your personal needs aside to try and keep your family together as well as save your spouse from her demons.

I am glad you did not quit.

And I truly hope that someday your wife realizes the effort you have put into her, your marriage and your family.

Because she truly was not deserving of that effort.

HM64


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## MattMatt

Tover you have been through a great deal and proved your metal. Sad that you had to, but you did it. Without what you did I can't imagine how your daughter's lives world have been. Well, truth to tell, I can imagine it and it would have been dreadful for them and you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Tover

Thank you for the update. Stay vigilant and you'll get through this.unforthately it seems that because of your wife's mental illness you'll never fully be able to let your guard down.


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## lordmayhem

Tover26, I'm sorry that you're the one doing the heavy lifting and busting your ass to keep this marriage together. I can see that your resentment is starting to build up.

_ I would have hoped by now that both of my feet would be firmly planted inside the family but it's not like that at all. We have good times and I'm glad to be there in those good times with her *but so far, none of this has been worth it.*_ 

You're still going in cycles, even *begging and pleading* with her. Seriously? Her behavior does not match her words. She'll play nice and by the rules for a little bit, then go back to her NORMAL pattern of behavior and you will beg, plead, and threaten her back into the marriage. This is NOT true remorse and you know it. You also know that you are continuing to live in the hell of limbo.

I'm sorry, but that's the way I see your situation.


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## badbane

Tover not that is matters but all of those letters from the OM have a certain familiarity with a group of internet pranksters/hackers. I am willing to bet money that the reason things go so crazy is that the DOM is just one of a large group that was toying with your wife. The lolz. IN the email hints at that because it is a well known term with that group of people. Also the quick dissemination of those images, video, to so many different sites also hints at this. Also the post harrassment and multiple email accounts are another hint that it was a group an not just one individual. I am not saying it couldn't be one guy using a group of proxy computers to mask his identity. 

I think you are dragging out this suffering way to long. She doesn't deserve you time or effort. I know you love her but, I think you do suffer from codependency where you wife is concerned. I would normally applaud someone willing to R. However with your wife's condition being both sexually and mentally unstable you are setting yourself up for trouble. I also think that the "DOm group" is not done with your or your wife. More than likely they are waiting for things to die down and then will start the process again. I am not trying to hurt your feeligs or cause you any more stress but you do need to be informed. You do deserve and could find a better partner than this woman you are with. I am also willing to bet that if you get a good IC for her that really pushed would find some sort of childhood abuse or trauma. Good luck but I think given the situation I would Divorce and let your wife go and then get remarried later.


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## Tover26

Thanks for the thoughts BadBane... it's kind of my operating theory too that, plus other things, make it impossible to relax. This weekend is DDay#1 2nd year. Looking back, things are better in some regards. The meds she is on have made a big difference this year. In some ways, it feels a bit like she is medicating herself to last; I don't know. 

We had a big series of discussions in June when, during a discussion, it finally hit me hard enough that there is a codependent component to this. Were things to get better or the unease to stop, I don't know what I would do with myself. 3 years of war and, yes. Some of the triggers are very strong still. But after all this time, I see and feel them coming miles away and yet when they hit, it's so hard to ignore them. I finally drove up to our old area one weekend and had a heart to heart with her old boss. Her lesbian lover, at least, has vanished to who knows where. That was triggered by her sending the wife a note that she still wasn't over her but had decided to move on. Going up there, talking to her boss, all of these things removed an entire geography from areas I get triggered in. 

I have two great daughters. I'm going to stay until the youngest graduates high school and starts college. After that, all bets are off. We'll either be better or divorcing at that point. We also have a very strong postnup that triggers if she ever does this crap again. It's cold comfort but divorce is not an option I am willing to consider. My daughters are thriving here and, though they have noted that I don't seem happy (wife does a better job hiding it), my daughters are happy with school and friends. When I am alone with them, it's magic. What kind of a person would I be if I let them alone with her? Naw. I'd rather suck it up and outlast. I do need to break some of these patterns though. Have been working on it with mixed success. 

We've had a few good times, something I never would have thought possible last year.


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## aug

Tover26 said:


> I have two great daughters.* I'm going to stay until the youngest graduates high school and starts college.* After that, all bets are off. We'll either be better or divorcing at that point. We also have a very strong postnup that triggers if she ever does this crap again. It's cold comfort but divorce is not an option I am willing to consider. My daughters are thriving here and, though they have noted that I don't seem happy (wife does a better job hiding it), my daughters are happy with school and friends. When I am alone with them, it's magic. What kind of a person would I be if I let them alone with her? Naw. I'd rather suck it up and outlast. I do need to break some of these patterns though. Have been working on it with mixed success.
> 
> We've had a few good times, something I never would have thought possible last year.



Ah, 10 years to go...

May I suggest you work on yourself in preparation of your new life 10 years from now? Exercise, new skills, learning, meeting other women, etc...

And getting your finance ready?


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## Tover26

Working on it. Exercise - check. New skills - check. Meeting other women? No thanks. 
- My first wife cheated with my best friend
- My 2nd wife cheated and documented it on the internet and also had a 2nd affair with a girl. 

I shudder to draw this as a line and extrapolate what a 3rd relationship might look like.


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## Chaparral

Whatever happened to your first wife?


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## awake1

I get you want to fall on the sword for your daughters, but if you're thinking about leaving when they hit highschool why not just do it now? What's so different? 

Why do so many of us choose to sacrifice ourselves when we were the victim, enduring yet more misery? That's a bigger question imo. 

You deserve better.


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## carpenoctem

Tover:

Please factor in this too: at the other end of all these, no one might be commensurately grateful for your torturesome sacrifice.

Your only reward might come from knowing you stood up and took it for your children, and led them to a better place in life. (They might not be exceptionally grateful to you, because children have a way of taking for granted even extraordinary sacrifices made by parents as their ‘due’. Plus, it is likely you might not ever fully reveal to them the circumstances between you and your wife, so they would never know the full extent of your sacrifice).

Is such martyrdom warranted? Only you can tell.

*Maybe *there is some other way you can do some justice to yourself too, *in the present.*


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## Tover26

1st wife. Married for 4 years. She was homesick and struggled with fertility and we wanted to have a baby. During fertility treatments, a close family couple became pregnant with twins at the same time that the husband was wrapping up military medical school. Since we lived near the school, when he asked if he could stay with us for a week, we said yes. A week became 5 months. During that time, because he was almost a doctor, they talked a lot about her infertility treatments and stated an EA that became a torrid actual affair. I caught them. Kicked him out. 

She never ended it with him and never went through remorse. It was all about the infertility struggles she was having, even after caught in the A. After 3 months of counseling and noting that she continued to find creative ways to talk with and stay in touch with him - even after I outed them to his wife, I moved out and filed for separation. Never looked back. 

Stayed in therapy during separation and began dating when the DV went final. She had a series of awful boyfriends and then fell in love with a guy already divorced 4x and became wife#5. She has since had 3 kids to add to the 14 kids he has with his 4 ex wives. They live in rural America all within walking distance of each other. 

I know this because she calls me at odd times, like during her anniversary with him and leaves me long voice mails. For really important things she'll call mutual friends and pester them till they tell me whatever is going on with her. It's annoying.


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## Shaggy

Tover,

You have very disasterous taste in women.


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## Tover26

Shaggy said:


> Tover,
> 
> You have very disasterous taste in women.


Indeed. It shows several important things:
- The core reasons people cheat is utterly out of our direct control
- Even when we think we "understand" clearly things like this highlight that there is always something missed
- Even if I leave my WW, with this "disasterous" thing going on, I can predict that my 3rd marriage would be so much worse to the point that it almost makes sense to try and fix this one

...or I could rent out services to guys thinking about proposing. I could interview the woman and determine that if I have any level of "wow, she's a keeper" that it'll end in disaster if the guy also seems like someone I'd get along well with. The Tover Discompatibility Service.


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## Tover26

I added this to another thread and it's worth noting here as it's part of what I'm experimenting with to self-recover:

So far, yes [regarding acupuncture helping with triggers]. As noted, I just finished my 6th session. And I feel like a hippie writing "so far, yes". 

1st session: I expected and felt nothing but slept like a baby and for the first time I can remember, I was at work next day without anxiety, heart palpitations, disruptive thoughts, mind movies, or dissociation. Dissociating has been really bad for me. That being said, at 6 pm that next day, it ALL came back and it was awful after a day like that. Sleep was really bad too. 

2nd session: Same as 1st session but benefit only lasted about 5 hours before I went back to normal. It was kind of depressing actually. 

3rd: I couldn't tell anything until about 4 days later when I realized that, compared to my "normal" I was doing somewhat better generally. 

4th: Same as 3rd but I noticed that I was also dissociating less. Normal dissociation for me, was trigger and what felt like a schizoid hallucination. I noticed that I would trigger and instead of my heart racing, I would think, "I'm triggering" and have all the same thoughts I normally would but minus the anxiety reaction. 

5th: Absolutely nothing. There was a 2 week delay here while the doctor was on vacation and I actually reverted back to "normal" entirely. The 5th was depressing because I registered no improvement.

6th: Back to a better general state more along the lines of the 3rd session. 

It's all mental so I journalled it. To be honest, I expected to spend money and quit after the 3rd session, but if you read the DoD studies, shrugs. I committed to try this for 3 months, which is the DoD length of study the Navy did.


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