# Forgive over and over?



## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

I am trying to simplify this as much as possible, but there is a lot going on with my story so please, please bear with me. I need help!! 

While my husband and I were "dating" (before engagement), I found out he had an infant son (as in 2 months old) and a fiance in another state (about a 4 hour drive away). When I confronted him about what I had found out, he confirmed it, but said that he had to remain "engaged" to her in order to have his last name on his son's birth certificate. He said that they had not been intimate since she got pregnant and he was trying to figure out a way to leave her but still get to see his son. (Now that I know her, this is pretty valid - she's a super-b*tch and NEVER lets him see their son without her there.) 

So, stupidly, I continued the relationship. He was with me 99% of the time so I sort of believed him. This dragged on for quite some time, about 5 or 6 months. I let it happen and it became normal, she would call and he'd pretend he wasn't with me, and even say "I love you" to her right in front of me on the phone. 

Finally one day he told me that they officially broke up. Shortly there after he asked me to marry him. Our relationship was extremely passionate and we spent every moment possible together. I felt like he was "the one." He bought me a new SUV and we were looking at houses already. So, stupidly, I said "YES!"

While my husband and I were engaged, I found out that he had "chatted" sexually online a few times, and had gone on a couple double dates with a mutual friend of ours. It hurt, but I forgave him for it and we threw that friend out of our lives. He blamed it on being bored, since I had started a business and was focused a lot on that business. He said it meant nothing and although it REALLY hurt me, I tried to move forward. I actually really loved his son and was attached him and my husbands family especially, this made it hard for me to move on. From this day forward I checked his phone bill and placed a keylogging program on his computer.

Right before we got married I asked him if there was anything else I needed to know. He said no. I specifically asked him about his baby's mother (who was now engaged to another guy.) He again, said there was nothing to find out.

It's a long story on how I found out, but I later found (7 months into our marriage) that he was sleeping with his baby's mother throughout our whole dating relationship and about half our engagement. Just weeks before our wedding he sent her text messages like "Yeah I'll send the money, but you gotta send me a pic of your tits first" and "I wish there was still a chance for us, I'm still very attracted to you." I had always though that HE left HER for ME. But, SHE left HIM because of ME.

So basically, now I feel like chopped liver. Now, I feel like I was the second choice. Everyone (including his family) tells me "Oh, no... you're prettier and smarter than her.. blah blah.." but I feel otherwise. 

I feel like I was tricked into marrying him. I feel like, since she moved on and got engaged, he married me. 

What do I do? I'm trying to "forgive" him but I have been betrayed and humiliated on many different levels. I feel like I will never get over this. How can I ever, ever trust him? I have been in a deep depression since I found out about this whole thing. (for 2 months now) Help me, please!


----------



## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

Oh I should mention... when I say he went on a few double dates with a mutual friend of ours, I meant this was a male friend that helped set up these dates so that the two of them could date girls unbeknown to the their significant others. So, this friend is no longer in our lives as he helped facilitate these "dates." He would find the girls and set up the date all my H would show up. Pretty sleazy. =/


----------



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Wow, this has to be so difficult for you! 

First question: are you committed to your marriage? 

(I very rarely ever advise divorce - that's a decision you must make on your own. They are rarely the solution people want them to be.) I am on the side of marriage, period.

In any event, you ignored a lot of red flags in your early relationship with your husband. Not the wisest thing to do, but what is past is past. You should, however, make sure you have all this written down in as chronological and detailed a manner as you can, because it will come in handy if you try to work this out with him. You need to have a record of patterns and evidence that you can show him.



MrsInPain said:


> While my husband and I were engaged, I found out that he had "chatted" sexually online a few times, and had gone on a couple double dates with a mutual friend of ours. It hurt, but I forgave him for it and we threw that friend out of our lives. He blamed it on being bored, since I had started a business and was focused a lot on that business. He said it meant nothing and although it REALLY hurt me, I tried to move forward.


Just to clarify: it may have meant nothing to HIM, but it meant a lot to you. I would advise you to not let him define what has meaning for you or not. 

One thing that you should note here is that this shows that he has little regard for you - which is a direct violation of his marriage vows to you.

QUESTION: Is he still chatting, visiting porn, etc.?



> I had always though that HE left HER for ME. But, SHE left HIM because of ME.


That's quite possible - you may have been his second choice. That is a painful thing to think about - but it doesn't change where you are NOW. It is possible for you to both make this a great marriage. Will take a LOT of work though. 



> What do I do? I'm trying to "forgive" him but I have been betrayed and humiliated on many different levels. I feel like I will never get over this. How can I ever, ever trust him? I have been in a deep depression since I found out about this whole thing. (for 2 months now) Help me, please!


You HAVE been betrayed and humiliated on many different levels. That's a fact, beyond the realm of how you feel about it. Also - 2 months is not a very long time - this could take a lot longer. My advice is to make a conscious decision about your marriage: are you willing to work at it? Do you want to make it what it should be? 

You need to have a firm grasp of your answer to those questions before you take any more steps.

I would also not advise you to try to 'feel' that you have forgiven him. There is too much that has not been cleared up for you to move that far. You _can_ forgive him for his past actions: by that, I mean, simply tell him you forgive him and let the idea slowly sink in to your own mind (may take years)

But in the mean time - he has a LOT to do to prove he is in any way trustworthy. Forgiving and trusting are NOT the same thing. He needs to earn your trust - and he needs to take direct steps to prove himself. (I'm sure my wife will have some very good ideas on that issue.)

My thoughts and prayers are with you.


----------



## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Wow, this has to be so difficult for you!
> 
> First question: are you committed to your marriage?
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for responding. Sorry for my delayed response! But, here goes:

I am trying to be committed. I did in fact ignore A LOTTTTTT of red flags; to the point where I really do not know why I did go through with the marriage, especially being a fairly intelligent individual. In my head, the whole time, I knew it was a mistake. 

Yet, we were very much so pushed into marriage by his family's church. They came over almost 5 days a week, pressuring us to marry because we were "sinning" by already living together. His father (whom I adore - he is a great man) took us into his home after my Husband's lies led to our financial collapse (long story). So, it was an awkward situation, to be living with him knowing that his church wanted us to marry quickly. 

I have documented all of the lies. There are many more, too. 

This sounds really absurd, and actually writing this out I feel really stupid for really having fell for this but... here goes: When we first started dating he *claimed* to have colon cancer (later confirmed as a lie). It was a really hard situation for me, because I felt like a lot of things weren't adding up, but then I felt guilty to for questioning a potentially really sick person (little did I know he was _mentally_, not physically sick). However, I still tried to take care of him, make him eat well, and I worried constantly. He would tell me that I couldn't go to the doctor with him because his dad (who I hadn't met yet) would go with him, and he didn't want us to meet under those circumstances. Also, making his story more likely, was that his mother died of cancer when my husband was 13 years old. So, he had the whole "cancer runs in the family" thing on his side. 

Well, because this story can quickly turn into a novel, I will just fast forward and say that I came to realize that he did not have cancer at all. It was a lie he fabricated as a smoke screen for a lot of other lies. Firstly, it muddied the situation of him seeing his ex (whom he was sleeping with unbeknown to me). I would think he was at a doctor's visit, or staying overnight for "tests," when in reality he was with her. And also, he was using the cancer story as a cover with his father, who he had been stealing from. His dad felt guilty for questioning the business transactions him and his son shared because in his mind, his son was dying. My husband even at one point told all of us that he has 6 months to live. It was ridiculous. Not to mention, emotionally draining. 

When I found out this was a lie, I actually felt really sorry for him. I felt like, how could I leave this poor guy who has such deep issues? I told him if he didn't start counseling, I'd leave him. So, since a few months before our wedding, he's been seeing a therapist. He has been diagnosed with depression, ADD and the rest is to be determined. 

To answer some of your other questions: As far as I know, he has not had any affairs since we have been married. He has just lied, A LOT. He was still looking at TONS of porn up until about 3 months ago. Since then, I have no proof that he has been. At this point, I really don't care. If he could just be honest for a day that would be nice. 

Now, to his credit, we have gone to several counseling sessions in which he has opened up and was seemingly sincere. He basically said that he didn't love me as much then as he does now. He said that he realized how much he loved me when I was willing (ha, ha) to marry him even after all that we had been through. So, he says, he started to love and treat me with more respect after the marriage. He BEGGED me to stay after I found out about the affair. He cried, moped around and basically just hung around my mom's (he gets along better with my mom than I do) house hoping I would show up there. He bought me jewelry, a new jaguar, flowers and left me poems everyday - the works. 

That sounds nice, but it doesn't take away the fact that I was literally tricked into marrying him. I really honestly was looking for a solid reason to not marry him. I wanted to know for sure that he has slept with someone else so I could wash my hands of the relationship. But I didn't get it. So, for a short time I tricked myself into thinking that what I had been through with him wasn't a big deal. 

I have had a nagging feeling for about a week straight now; a feeling that is seemingly growing stronger. I have weak moments, but for the most part, I feel like: 1) I can never look at him the same again. 2) Who does he think he is? Tricking me into marriage?? and 3) I am too young for this. I am only 23.

I promised myself I would never get divorced. But, I never pictured myself getting to deeply wound up in a web of deceit. I really do love him as a person and I feel like if I really left him for good, I would be an emotional wreck, as would he. I would miss the comfort and friendship. I would hate seeing him cry again. I hate seeing (especially men, for some reason) people I love in pain. I would also feel guilty because I feel like he has mental problems. However, mental problems aside - he knew what he was doing when he did it. I can't forget that.

On the other hand, I can't look at him the same anymore. =/

I have been battling this conundrum all week and the best thing I can come up with to comfort myself is just to wait. I am trying to make it though a few months to see if there is anything left in this relationship to salvage. 

Again, thanks for your input. It's unbelievably comforting to have another human being listen to my issues and weigh in on them.


----------



## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

What I meant by "I am trying to be committed" is that I am trying to keep the idea of divorce out of my head. I have always been faithful and I always plan to be. I am strongly opposed to cheating.


----------



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

I am working on a reply for you - but this is sort of complicated, so I want to think and pray about it first,as well as talk about it with my wife (we work together as marriage coaches.) I just wanted to let you know we am still here.


----------



## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

Thank you. Seriously. I have been trying to pray about it, but I have been so angry lately that I'm not getting a clear feeling of what to do.


----------



## BetrayedChris (Nov 24, 2009)

MIP, I am sorry for you. I also have been praying, but its hard when you are so hurt and angry and unable to focus.


----------



## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

BC, Thank you. Yes, it is hard. Also, I just started being religious and have been trying to work on it. This affair really tested my faith. It's hard when you try to let religion into your life and simultaneously an affair happens. I am trying to come out of it stronger, but I think strength won't come until later... unfortunately. We have to try and pray for strength, I guess.


----------



## BetrayedChris (Nov 24, 2009)

I think so.Part of me thinks that our marriage will become stronger or maybe I will come out of it a stronger person regardless of the outcome of our marriage.


----------



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> As far as I know, he has not had any affairs since we have been married. He has just lied, A LOT. He was still looking at TONS of porn up until about 3 months ago. Since then, I have no proof that he has been. At this point, I really don't care. If he could just be honest for a day that would be nice.


Lying is a huge destroyer of marriage. Make sure you let him know how much this hurts you. There are lots of reasons people lie - but they usually boil down to one of two things (sometimes intertwined):

1) He does not feel safe telling the truth. This may not have anything to do with you - it may be that he was raised such that he felt more secure hiding reality. That's a job for his counselor to determine. (Regardless, it is still wrong and must stop). If this is the case, make sure you let him know that he has absolute safety in being open and honest with you. (Also - make sure he IS safe - it's one thing to SAY it and another to PROVIDE it.)

2) He has a very controlling mindset and uses his lies to control his environment. He lies to make you behave the way he wants you to. If this is so, you have a duty to yourself and your family (and to him) to guard yourself. Refuse to give in, step back and let the consequences of his lies settle on his head. You'll be able to figure out how to do this more and more over time, and you can get lots of good advice here (also some really bad, I've noticed...)



> Now, to his credit, we have gone to several counseling sessions in which he has opened up and was seemingly sincere. He basically said that he didn't love me as much then as he does now. He said that he realized how much I loved him when I was willing (ha, ha) to marry him even after all that we had been through. So, he says, he started to love and treat me with more respect after the marriage. He BEGGED me to stay after I found out about the affair. He cried, moped around and basically just hung around my mom's (he gets along better with my mom than I do) house hoping I would show up there. He bought me jewelry, a new jaguar, flowers and left me poems everyday - the works.


Is he still buying you cars, jewels, flowers, etc? Or did that stop once he knew you were back in the game?



> That sounds nice, but it doesn't take away the fact that I was literally tricked into marrying him. I really honestly was looking for a solid reason to not marry him. I wanted to know for sure that he has slept with someone else so I could wash my hands of the relationship. But I didn't get it. So, for a short time I tricked myself into thinking that what I had been through with him wasn't a big deal.


One trap that can hurt you is to fall into dwelling on what 'could have been' or 'what should have been' - you are where you are right now. True, you entered into this contract without all the facts - he lied to you. The question is - what are you willing to do _right now_?

If you want to save your marriage - no wait - if you want to MAKE a marriage, you need to start it NOW rather than back then. You will need to set up protection for yourself, you'll need to clearly understand what your boundaries are, and what your needs are. You need to have those things so clear to you that you can speak them without much thought.



> I promised myself I would never get divorced. But, I never pictured myself getting to deeply wound up in a web of deceit. I really do love him as a person and I feel like if I really left him for good, I would be an emotional wreck, as would he. I would miss the comfort and friendship. I would hate seeing him cry again. I hate seeing (especially men, for some reason) people I love in pain. I would also feel guilty because I feel like he has mental problems. However, mental problems aside - he knew what he was doing when he did it. I can't forget that.


You definitely have some work to do! First thing: I would most definitely hold to your promise to yourself that you would never divorce. You made that promise to him as well in your wedding vows. That's a basic standard that you can keep in the background. BUT!!!

If divorce comes, let it be because HE files it, or has moved on and left you, so that there is _nothing_ more for you to do.

But the fact that you will not divorce does not mean you have to just let things continue. There is NO WAY you should just wait! - as in: 



> I have been battling this conundrum all week and the best thing I can come up with to comfort myself is just to wait.


You can work right now. It just won't be pleasant all the time. You are right - set the mental problems aside. Just because he feels sad (depressed) does NOT mean he is allowed to treat you with disrespect. You do not need to be treated that way. THAT is a choice he makes - it may be more difficult because, well gosh, he just doesn't feel like it - but it can be done.

Regarding his tears: I'm willing to bet he uses those as a means of manipulation. He knows if he cries he gets his way. He knows you are a 'softy.' It may be that you will need to toughen up a bit. Kids use that tactic all the time. Best way to deal with it - hand him some Kleenex and wait till he finishes his tantrum, and then get back to business.

As for his mental problems - that is highly suspect. My gut instinct tells he is a very, very controlling person who will do whatever it takes to manipulate others - and his 'mental' problems either stem from the fact that things just don't go the way he is 'willing' them to go (which is extremely fatiguing) or else they are manifestations of his controlling mindset - useful tools. In any event, you can go on with your work and let him have his troubles - just don't let them affect you any more than necessary (allow him to suffer the consequences of his decisions.) I am pretty certain those 'mental problems' will go the way of his cancer when he finds they no longer work.

First steps: Start to guard your heart - don't let yourself be harmed. Find out YOUR part in the marriage troubles. Work on ending anything you may do that hinders growth - and then begin to do things that will encourage growth instead. And keep coming back here!!!


----------



## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Lying is a huge destroyer of marriage. Make sure you let him know how much this hurts you. There are lots of reasons people lie - but they usually boil down to one of two things (sometimes intertwined):
> 
> 1) He does not feel safe telling the truth. This may not have anything to do with you - it may be that he was raised such that he felt more secure hiding reality. That's a job for his counselor to determine. (Regardless, it is still wrong and must stop). If this is the case, make sure you let him know that he has absolute safety in being open and honest with you. (Also - make sure he IS safe - it's one thing to SAY it and another to PROVIDE it.)
> 
> 2) He has a very controlling mindset and uses his lies to control his environment. He lies to make you behave the way he wants you to. If this is so, you have a duty to yourself and your family (and to him) to guard yourself. Refuse to give in, step back and let the consequences of his lies settle on his head. You'll be able to figure out how to do this more and more over time, and you can get lots of good advice here (also some really bad, I've noticed...)


You are right - they are intertwined. His therapist, who seems overly apathetic of him, says that she sees a "scared little boy" inside of him. But some of his lies are so malicious - tearing up people's lives and hearts. He stands to gain a lot from his lies usually, too - so I think it is a mixture of fear and control.



> Is he still buying you cars, jewels, flowers, etc? Or did that stop once he knew you were back in the game?


He has pretty much stopped. Although, he kind of exhausted his resources to get me these things while I left him for that week. He is unemployed. He gets money occasionally from his father, or, sadly - from selling marijuana. I knew he had a problem with marijuana before, and I knew that he sold it in high school. But he assured me (yet another lie) that he was done dealing it before we got married. Now, when he does it, his excuse is that he can't find a job so he needs to make money somehow. I recently helped him enroll in college - so I guess there is an end in sight with the drug dealing. He obviously doesn't sell a lot, because we are always broke. We live off of my meager income, as I am finishing my degree as well. 

People who know me, were so surprised when I was falling for him. I was always so organized, collected and driven. No one, including me, ever thought they see me with a guy who ever sold drugs. Part of the charm in the beginning, I think, WAS that he was sick. I felt honored that he would want to spend possibly his last days with me. Gosh, it sounds like a movie or something. How naive, I was.




> One trap that can hurt you is to fall into dwelling on what 'could have been' or 'what should have been' - you are where you are right now. True, you entered into this contract without all the facts - he lied to you. The question is - what are you willing to do _right now_?
> 
> If you want to save your marriage - no wait - if you want to MAKE a marriage, you need to start it NOW rather than back then. You will need to set up protection for yourself, you'll need to clearly understand what your boundaries are, and what your needs are. You need to have those things so clear to you that you can speak them without much thought.
> 
> ...


This is what I am trying to accomplish. I am trying to, for lack of a better term, get back up on the horse. I will admit though, part of me secretly wishes that he will just give up. He already displays impatience when it comes to me feeling better. He tells me all the time that I need to "get over it." He is angry when I deny him sex and he acts entitled. He thinks that 2 months is plenty time and he is perplexed when I tell him I still severely depressed. There are nights I want to take a fist full of sleeping pills just to escape my life. Luckily, I have a lot more to live for than him, though.



> Regarding his tears: I'm willing to bet he uses those as a means of manipulation. He knows if he cries he gets his way. He knows you are a 'softy.' It may be that you will need to toughen up a bit. Kids use that tactic all the time. Best way to deal with it - hand him some Kleenex and wait till he finishes his tantrum, and then get back to business.


Great idea. I already know he is capable of crocodile tears. I will never forget, the day (almost 3 years ago and only 4 months into us dating, when I was head-over-heels) that he told me his "cancer" had spread and that his "doctors predicted" that he had not much time to live. He cried in my arms all night. What a sham!




> As for his mental problems - that is highly suspect. My gut instinct tells he is a very, very controlling person who will do whatever it takes to manipulate others - and his 'mental' problems either stem from the fact that things just don't go the way he is 'willing' them to go (which is extremely fatiguing) or else they are manifestations of his controlling mindset - useful tools. In any event, you can go on with your work and let him have his troubles - just don't let them affect you any more than necessary (allow him to suffer the consequences of his decisions.) I am pretty certain those 'mental problems' will go the way of his cancer when he finds they no longer work.


I have thought of this too. I am already aware that he lies and manipulates his therapist. She is a smart woman, but not a mind reader. He lies to her a lot. He claims (of course) that he is open and honest with her, but he plays her too. She wants to be the person who discovers the "scared little boy" in him that is hurting because his mommy passed away. He plays on that, A LOT. 

I always tell him that he is solely responsible for his actions, no one else. I tell him no matter what is going on inside his head - he always has a choice between the right and the wrong thing.




> First steps: Start to guard your heart - don't let yourself be harmed. Find out YOUR part in the marriage troubles. Work on ending anything you may do that hinders growth - and then begin to do things that will encourage growth instead. And keep coming back here!!!


This is a work in progress, I will try to do these things. I have to!


----------



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> His therapist, who seems overly apathetic of him, says that she sees a "scared little boy" inside of him. But some of his lies are so malicious - tearing up people's lives and hearts. He stands to gain a lot from his lies usually, too - so I think it is a mixture of fear and control.


Sorry - that 'scared little boy' thing never flies with me. It works when you are a scared little boy - but not when you grow up. Part of being a man is 'dealing with it.' As in, sorry dude, deal with it. Things sometimes don't go the way you want. Sometimes you get hurt. Deal with it. A therapist can (unfortunately) see this as a great way of making a steady income (apologies to the therapists on here... not all of you see it that way.) But a therapist can certainly milk that for all it's worth. Do you see his family as the kind that would damage a child so badly that they cannot cope as adults? 

It could be - it depends on HOW they deal with him now - the reasons they do things for him. However, from what you've written here, I see a totally different story emerging: your man has 'issues' with controlling. I mean, he is a controller. He is also most likely narcissistic. See also this excellent blog.

In order to protect yourself, you should most likely be studying what a healthy, normal relationship should be and then act in ways that show you expect that of your spouse.



> ...he kind of exhausted his resources to get me these things while I left him for that week. He is unemployed. He gets money occasionally from his father, or, sadly - from selling marijuana. I knew he had a problem with marijuana before, and I knew that he sold it in high school. But he assured me (yet another lie) that he was done dealing it before we got married. Now, when he does it, his excuse is that he can't find a job so he needs to make money somehow. I recently helped him enroll in college - so I guess there is an end in sight with the drug dealing. He obviously doesn't sell a lot, because we are always broke. We live off of my meager income, as I am finishing my degree as well.


I truly hope you don't have kids right now - you didn't say - but in today's society, a parent selling drugs endangers the kids (the state tends to deal harshly with people who do drugs, etc.) Not only that, but you yourself are in danger of some harsh treatment from overzealous prosecuting attorneys, police, etc. Its best to avoid that sort of behavior! If I could advise you, let your busband know that he can not bring that stuff into your house/life.

Is he actually attending college? You are not paying for it, are you? If so, refuse from now on. He can do that himself - he is a grown man - he can even apply for financial aid himself. There's a reason why I advise this: not because it isn't nice for you to help him, nor even, in a normal relationship, a moral thing to do. No, in THIS relationship, you have a man who wants to continue being a baby, one who needs to grow up. 



> Part of the charm in the beginning, I think, WAS that he was sick. I felt honored that he would want to spend possibly his last days with me. Gosh, it sounds like a movie or something. How naive, I was.


Not really - I sense in you a caretaker - someone who cares for others, a healer. It's natural for you to want to help. Your danger is found in the fact that you have been unable to discenr between truth & lies. Not to worry - that's something that comes with age and experisnce. You'll always get better at that.

Here's something to consider: do you think that you have done anything that may have damaged your relationship with him? 



> This is what I am trying to accomplish. I am trying to, for lack of a better term, get back up on the horse. I will admit though, part of me secretly wishes that he will just give up. He already displays impatience when it comes to me feeling better. He tells me all the time that I need to "get over it." He is angry when I deny him sex and he acts entitled. He thinks that 2 months is plenty time and he is perplexed when I tell him I still severely depressed. There are nights I want to take a fist full of sleeping pills just to escape my life. Luckily, I have a lot more to live for than him, though.


Please stay away from drugs - you'll get through this a lot faster if you do! Regardless, there is more here to consider: you are feeling hurt from what you learned about his affair, yes, and this makes sex uncomfortable. BUt I think your retisence to be intimate is related more to the general treatment you get from him: he is not a very lovely person right now, and that makes it very difficult. 

Straight talk with him about how he treats you the REST of the time and how it affects your desire to be intimate with him would be a good idea. Try doing it using 'clinical' type talk -he is used to therapy - tell him you are having some issues with intimacy and would like his help. Get him on 'your' side (actually the side of the marriage), and allow your conversation to keep turning back to how you can both build up love for one another.


----------



## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

I have thought in the past that he may be a Sociopath (narcissist) because one book I read called "the Courage to Trust" dedicated one chapter to characterizing the Sociopath and it basically said, this is the one type of person that you cannot waste your energy on, for they will never change and can never be trusted. eeeep. 

To answer some other questions:

Thankfully, I have decided to NOT bring children into this world until I am fully convinced that I have a good environment to raise them in. I am very careful when we do have sex, because he is always begging me to have a baby. I cannot be on any type of birth control for a few years as my doctors are trying to figure out some health problems with me. I am very dedicated to NOT having children at the moment, though.

As for his college, his dad is paying for it. Whether or not he is going, I suppose I won't always know. The semester starts next week and he seems excited. We will see. 

I have told his dad, numerous times, to STOP giving my husband money, as he is enabling him. I told him to stop letting my husband go to the bank for him, or be around valuables. His dad won't listen. So he keeps getting taken advantage of. Me on the other hand, I have boundaries and I stick to them now.

Regarding my part in the relationship, I feel like I have been not been able to be my fun-loving and relaxed self around him for quite some time. It seems like each week there is a new transgression to learn of. I always am on edge and I know it's not a welcoming environment for him to start opening up. However, I'm plagued with the idea that I don't truly know who I am married to. I am married to a facade. 

As far as me and drugs - I have never nor will I ever. I don't even really drink alcohol (except literally maybe two or three times a year). My thought about those sleeping pills was just a thought... and it was Tylenol PM anyway (haha, I am such a wuss!). 

I guess for now I will just hope that me setting and keeping boundaries (not enabling him to act narcissistic) and continuing counseling will help. I think we need a more stern therapist, though; not such a push over.



Tanelornpete said:


> Sorry - that 'scared little boy' thing never flies with me. It works when you are a scared little boy - but not when you grow up. Part of being a man is 'dealing with it.' As in, sorry dude, deal with it. Things sometimes don't go the way you want. Sometimes you get hurt. Deal with it. A therapist can (unfortunately) see this as a great way of making a steady income (apologies to the therapists on here... not all of you see it that way.) But a therapist can certainly milk that for all it's worth. Do you see his family as the kind that would damage a child so badly that they cannot cope as adults?
> 
> It could be - it depends on HOW they deal with him now - the reasons they do things for him. However, from what you've written here, I see a totally different story emerging: your man has 'issues' with controlling. I mean, he is a controller. He is also most likely narcissistic. See also this excellent blog.
> 
> ...


----------



## jason (Dec 12, 2009)

Wow. Just wow.

This must be / must have been very tough for you.

From my point of view it's all clear: it hasn't been a one-time accident, he's been constantly lying and cheating on you for most of your relationship. 

If I were you I'd take off tomorrow and never look back. But I do understand that our minds don't always function logically and we tend to let feelings and emotions get in the way, so you gotta sort that out first.

To wrap it up: if you're sad when you go to bed at night but wake up somewhat happier in the morning, that means that things are getting better and your problems might go away over time. If you however fall asleep being sad and wake up just as sad it means it's time to make a change, whether you like it or not.


----------



## TempTime (Jan 31, 2010)

MrsInPain-
I am NOT a proponent of divorce BUT... you deserve SOOO much more than what you are getting from your husband. 
I don't think he is going to "magically" mature overnight - even with counseling. 
There are no children to consider. I think you should move on and I honestly don't think that once you get through the initial pain of being separated that you will regret it one bit!
Best of luck to you!!


----------



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

I too do not advocate divorce - it is nearly always possible to save a marriage. That, however, depends on the willingness of _both_ partners to work at it. If a divorce must be done - let your spouse take that step. Always leave the marriage with the full understanding that you did everything you could to save it.

This does not mean, however that you cannot take steps to protect yourself. There is no way that any one of us can make a correct diagnosis of your husband - we only have information given by you - which (although it seems highly unlikely) could be 'enhanced' to give your arguments more support than they need.

From what you write, you are in a very toxic relationship - and I would not rule out physical danger as well. Your husband's dabbling in drugs could easily result in government officials harming you in their eagerness to punish. Your husband could contrive of all sorts of harm to continue manipulating - especially if you begin to see through his ruses and stop falling for them - things could escalate rapidly.

Because of this, I would advise you to create some 'safety kits' - pack a duffel bag with a could changes of clothing, with basic necessities. Keep that where you can get to it quickly. 

Make copies of all your important papers and put them somewhere safe - with a friend, family member, etc. Make a copy of your house key and let a friend keep it.

Make sure you can visualize all exits from any room you are in - windows, doors, etc. You might need to use them; plan your escape routes.

Stay very much aware that your husband is doing all he can to manipulate everyone around him. Don't fall for anything! Step back out of the binds he has on you - let him start to suffer the consequences of his actions. 

Work on yourself - become a better and better, stronger person.

If necessary, find yourself another place to live. Before you do this, though there are some steps you should take - basically you'll want to do what is known as a 'plan B.' You simply step completely out of your spouses life, cut off all ties, and let them know that you will be waiting for them when they have demonstrated that they have changed. This is a tough step - with all kinds of complications - but it is very effective. Don't take that step without a LOT of preparation (and help from us here) - there's a lot of things you have to do to ensure that it will be effective.

Now all of this assumes you wish to save your marriage. All of it is designed to protect you and at the same time keep the avenues open to changing your marriage into a positive thing.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Honestly, I hope you decide to leave him. He is not safe, and things will only get worse. The longer you stay with him, the less you trust your own thoughts and beliefs, until you are a shell of the person you used to be. You deserve better than that.

Can he change and become a decent husband? Of course!

But IMO he never will, unless you leave him and THEN give him a very strong set of conditions under which you would take him back.


----------



## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

jason said:


> Wow. Just wow.
> 
> This must be / must have been very tough for you.
> 
> ...


Wow, what you said hit home. I would say I more often have the days of falling asleep sad and waking up sad; although a few days in between are different. I've had a really weird (depressive) sleeping schedule lately. I've been sleeping in excess of 10 hours per night for the last few months. I also take a lot more naps, especially on the weekends. Luckily I have a very flexible job! 

I have a lot to think about and a lot of work to do, with regard to my marriage. 

The hardest thing for me, is that he will try REALLY hard to get me to stay. But I literally have to have one foot out the door to snap him into this mode. I will have a big emotional episode, where I freak out and tell him I'm done, can't handle it anymore and I'm leaving. 

Then he starts with the "you mean everything to me please stay I will show you how happy I can make you." Then for the next few days I get texts all day long "you're beautiful," "i love you angel," "I've been thinking really hard about how to improve our relationship," ... etc etc. He tells me that he KNOWS it's his fault we are screwed up and he promises he will work hard do everything right from here on until forever. 

In his mind, he believes that as long as he's not cheating on me again, everything is fine. He thinks that he should be getting a prize because he's been faithful for 6 months. He gets frustrated when I'm still depressed. 

I could write on and on but.... Blegh!!


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

In y'all's situations, I would write out specific actions they have to take. REALLY specific, so they can't say they didn't understand. And put it in time frame - like he has to take 6 months of counseling, or go 3 months without a belittling statement...whatever works for you.


----------



## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> I too do not advocate divorce - it is nearly always possible to save a marriage. That, however, depends on the willingness of _both_ partners to work at it. If a divorce must be done - let your spouse take that step. Always leave the marriage with the full understanding that you did everything you could to save it.
> 
> This does not mean, however that you cannot take steps to protect yourself. There is no way that any one of us can make a correct diagnosis of your husband - we only have information given by you - which (although it seems highly unlikely) could be 'enhanced' to give your arguments more support than they need.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your support. 

This is basically the approach I have had for a while. I know of 4 places that I could go immediately, and stay as long as I like. Mom's, Dad's (his house is like a fortress, which is nice), Best Friends, and Best Friend's mom's. I've left before for a week and it wrecked him. I came back pretty much because I was lonely and I believed he wanted to change.

I have told myself that I will try to work on the marriage and on him as a person, basically until I graduate college (a year from now) and have a stable job. My job now is okay, but not enough to fully live on my own. 

With regard to my safety... yes, sometimes I am afraid. I have almost been arrested for fraud, already - because of him. I also am always weary of the drug situation as well. We have a case pending even as we speak for fraud, grand theft and some other charges. This is from a business partner we used to have (about 2 years ago), which my H swindled out of almost $500k. This business partner was no saint either, he stole my H's portion of profits on several deals... but let's just say my H stole more than his share. He tells me he will take full blame if we are ever indicted. The problem is, at the time, I wrote checks out of my own business account to cover for his business with this guy who is going after us. I sort of half-knew what was going on but I sort of for some reason thought it wasn't legally wrong because it wasn't my business, it was his. Time will only tell whether or not I get into trouble. I hope I don't. 

Again, thank you for your support. Sometimes when I think about all of this I look at it so objectively, like it's a movie instead of my life. It's refreshing to apply it to my well being and realize that I stress and get depressed for real reasons. I'm not just crazy!


----------



## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

turnera said:


> In y'all's situations, I would write out specific actions they have to take. REALLY specific, so they can't say they didn't understand. And put it in time frame - like he has to take 6 months of counseling, or go 3 months without a belittling statement...whatever works for you.


He has been in counseling for about 10 months. He's been going once a week. Because of his situation with lying, we have an agreement with his therapist that I can be acknowledged if he does not show up. However, I still think he lies to his therapist. He plays into her feeling sorry for him. He acts really meek with her. She buys it, most of the time.

Although, I see where you're going with this idea and I like it. Perhaps I will make a list of all the things I'd have to see in the relationship in order for us to be happy. Since I've decided to stay (for now), I might as well see how far I can get with fixing things.


----------



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

MrsInPain said:


> I've left before for a week and it wrecked him. I came back pretty much because I was lonely and I believed he wanted to change.


It might be apparent now that it will take a lot longer than a week for him to change - and it is real change, not the _desire _to change - for which you should look. It took him a lot longer than a week to get where he is now, and as long as he has a support group to enable him to keep up with his behavior, _he simply will not change_. That support group needs to vanish, he needs to face reality and figure out how to fix problems without lying his way around them, or manipulating others to fix them for him. You are doing him no favors by giving in, _ever_.



> I have told myself that I will try to work on the marriage and on him as a person, basically until I graduate college (a year from now) and have a stable job. My job now is okay, but not enough to fully live on my own.


Here's a real easy solution for you: realize that you CANNOT fix him. 'Working on him' is a waste of time. Not even a therapist can do that. He has to do that work - we all do.

I'll bet if you lived with your parents you could easily go to school and work at the same time. I'll bet if they saw you trying that hard, they'd be very supportive. I would, and I have 7 kids.



> With regard to my safety... yes, sometimes I am afraid. I have almost been arrested for fraud, already - because of him. I also am always weary of the drug situation as well. We have a case pending even as we speak for fraud, grand theft and some other charges. This is from a business partner we used to have (about 2 years ago), which my H swindled out of almost $500k. This business partner was no saint either, he stole my H's portion of profits on several deals... but let's just say my H stole more than his share. He tells me he will take full blame if we are ever indicted. The problem is, at the time, I wrote checks out of my own business account to cover for his business with this guy who is going after us. I sort of half-knew what was going on but I sort of for some reason thought it wasn't legally wrong because it wasn't my business, it was his. Time will only tell whether or not I get into trouble. I hope I don't.


At _some_ point here, hopefully, you will see that this is not a healthy lifestyle! If you have any idea of your own value, if you have any hope of guarding yourself, you need to take some big steps, very soon. 

Yes, you may face some trouble because of your involvement with your husband's schemes - that's something you can deal with when it happens. I would NOT count on,_ nor expect_ your husband to take full blame - unless it served his purposes. He may use it as a form of extortion to get you to do what he wants. If you care at all for him, _and most certainly for yourself_, you'll not fall for that trap - regardless of the current cost, because FUTURE costs will be much worse. It never fades away - you'll be used up until there is nothing left. (Given that your reports here are truthful, of course...)

This is actually well beyond the help that can be offered over the web - take what we say and go with it as much as you can - but keep in mind you may need more help later.

As for right now:

As turnera writes - get some specific ideas of what you want - but I would modify that by saying that I would not set a deadline of '6' months or 'a year' - I'd say "Here is what I expect (honesty, love, honor, etc...) (carefully defining each) - and when you can demonstrate to me that you are absolutely capable of these things, THEN we will _consider_ getting back together." 

Take NO promises of change, nor even arguments like 'look - I've been at it for a year now...' - he is fully capable of carrying on a ruse for a LONG long time. You will be able to tell when he approaches you with honesty as a changed man, fully capable of telling you exactly what he was like, what he was doing, etc... and also demonstrate to you that he no longer is that person.

Until then, stay absolutely away from him - for the sake of your health and sanity.


----------



## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> It might be apparent now that it will take a lot longer than a week for him to change - and it is real change, not the _desire _to change - for which you should look. It took him a lot longer than a week to get where he is now, and as long as he has a support group to enable him to keep up with his behavior, _he simply will not change_. That support group needs to vanish, he needs to face reality and figure out how to fix problems without lying his way around them, or manipulating others to fix them for him. You are doing him no favors by giving in, _ever_.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Everything you say makes perfect sense... and sadly I feel like it is something I've known for a long time but kept putting my gut instincts on the back burner.

About leaving right now, I know I could do it. I am just dreading the charade he is going to put on. He's going to cry nonstop and pull at my heart strings. He will do and say ANYTHING to get me back. 

The only place I could move to where I'd have my own bed and really intrude the least would be my mom's (which is interesting because she's the poorest and lives in the smallest house), but my H is really close to my mom, her husband and my 6 year old brother. It's not surprising, because my mom is an alcoholic who does cocaine on the weekends. What a great live I have.

Anyway, what my "plan B" has been for a while now (at least the last 3 months) is me working on getting a better paying job and moving school to strictly night classes. I've been saving money here and there, and I'm thinking once I have enough to get an apartment I can swiftly move.

What I'm really afraid of, is I will leave, and sleep on one person's couch for a week, wear out my welcome, then move to another, another... then I'm almost forced to move back with the H. If I left for real this time - as in, I could leave for a few months while he possibly (who knows... a miracle could occur) works on changing himself for the better - I'd want it to be stable so I won't buckle and go back home.

As for the trouble I'm facing... oy vey, I just uncovered another little stupid web of lies last night. Basically, his type of lying is always grandiose. He can't just tell one little lie, no.. It's always got to be a huge story. This is a long story but at least it's interesting... This is but ONE of the little scandals going on in my life. There are about 5 stories, varying in severity, much like this one. 

Here's the background:

Well, my H had(or has) this "friend" and this friend has a girlfriend. When my H & I first started dating, I told him I wasn't comfortable with this couple. They seemed no good to me and they made me weary. He told me not to worry, they are good people. 

My H treated this guy like a brother, always giving him money and paying him to go on errands for him, etc. This couple was ALWAYS around. In fact, I cooked for 4 a LOT. 

A few years ago, we moved into a new house and this couple helped us. About a week after we moved, we had to go out of town to see my H's son. Our house got robbed. A $4,000 tv, about $10k (yes, $10k) worth of antiques, and some stupid stuff like DVDs. 

NOBODY except the landlord and this couple knew where our house was at this point. We hadn't had any family over because we weren't unpacked yet - plus it was about 40 mins from our hometown. Now, I know it very well could have been a random robbery, but this was a really good neighborhood and the person who robbed us seemed to know his/her way around. They used an alley behind our house, no neighbors saw or heard anything... it just seemed weird. *added detail - also of note, my H had this friend sell antiques for him here and there, especially our small Tiffany pieces, all the time. So this friend KNEW how to get rid of our Tiffany vases - which is was was stolen. He was also always around, so he heard my H talk about how much our antiques were worth.*

Long story short - my H acted really weird about the robbery. He didn't want to make a big deal out of it. I called the police and had them dust for prints but my H was very skeptical and kept telling the cops "I know, it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack" and he basically told them he knew they had better things to do and not to worry too much about our robbery.

I knew that this friend of his used to deal drugs too, and I wondered if my H owed him money on a deal gone bad. I was right. I went on my gut instinct and confronted the friend (via phone) and told him I knew he robbed us. He denied it but got really c*cky with me and hung up. Then his girlfriend started sending me threatening text messages calling me names and etc. 

I told my H to sever the relationship with this couple for good. In a certain respect, it was his fault for even getting involved in that kind of business. Of course you're going to get robbed. So, we moved AGAIN and I thought they had severed ties.

Fast-forward to Yesterday:

It had been at least a year since I had seen or heard of this couple. I decided to peek at my H's phone last night, he fell asleep early and I knew he didn't mean to fall asleep so his text messages probably weren't cleared. 

Low and behold, there are messages back and forth from this couple. Basically, the gist of what happened is: The "friend" got arrested and is currently out on bail for possession of narcotics with the intent to sell. My H is friends with and a narc for a Narcotics Detective in our area. H's friend knows this. So he confronted my H, apologized for robbing us (because he took way more than what was owed) and proposed that he'd pay my H $5k if he could put him in contact with my H's detective friend and possibly work out a deal. I don't even think my H has that kind of pull with this detective. I've talked to him (detective), but he seems like just a friend.

Also, for some reason my H is telling this "friend" that he will help him get a car (??) and has offered him my old car (which I sold a few months ago, but this "friend" doesn't know that). He always does this kind of stupid crap, where he KNOWS for a FACT that this transaction will NEVER happen. He just always tries to be a big shot. I think he was planning on getting the money for the car first, then turning around and buying one at a profit... or something?! Either way, he has these people waiting around. There were messages like "yeah I will meet you at 5 with the car. Promise" I just don't understand the POINT! 

He's already taken the $5k from them, for the legal charges thing, but I don't think his detective friend is even aware of the situation, let alone do I think he could or would do something.

So, I confronted my H this morning about it. I just said, "You know, its not even the fact that you lied about still talking to this couple. You could have told me that they tried to contact you. But the problem I have is seeing that you are still capable of these huge grandiose schemes. Whether or not these people stole from you, you stole from them and it's not right. You can't just play with people's lives all the time."

His argument was that these were bad people anyway, so who cares?

"Oh yeah?!" I said... "Well then using that line of logic, why did you lie to me profusely and cheat on me?! Or what about your father? What did he do to deserve you robbing him blind?"

He had no answer.

I told him THESE ARE THE THINGS you should be talking about with your therapist. Otherwise, it's a waste of $500 a month.

Blah, sorry I typed a such a HUGE post...I don't know why I am telling you this, I guess I am just venting.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm glad you are putting money away. Make sure it's in an account your husband has no access to. (or your family) By setting up a date to leave, you can shop more cost-efficiently for an apartment and whatever else.


----------



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

I'm not going to go into this too deeply - you are already fully apprised of the danger you face, and the steps you need to take. My advice: simply get busy.



> What I'm really afraid of, is I will leave, and sleep on one person's couch for a week, wear out my welcome, then move to another, another... then I'm almost forced to move back with the H. If I left for real this time - as in, I could leave for a few months while he possibly (who knows... a miracle could occur) works on changing himself for the better - I'd want it to be stable so I won't buckle and go back home.


It would be a VERY bad idea for you to move in with your Mom. This should not be on your list at all. Remove it from your options. If anything, you want yo move yourself away from the environment that has put you in this position in the first place.

Do you not have any friends with which you can be absolutely honest? One in which you can confide that you need a safe place to live, that you will be willing to pitch in toward rent, etc? It only has to be temporary. 

Again, I must re-emphasize that you must be away from your husband, and completely uninvolved in his shenanigans until such a time as he can truly demonstrate to you that he has changed. It may be that he will file divorce instead. So be it - let it happen. 

I'm going to say something that you may find unpleasant to consider: but consider it anyway, please!

Consider quitting school for a short time - long enough to get out of the city - move to somewhere new, start over. Get a job somewhere else, and be very thorough on working on WHO YOU ARE. Work on defining what you want out of friends, relationships, etc. After you are confident that you know yourself - then find some new friends. Until then, stay distanced from people - be acquainted, but don't strike up friendships.

Learn to be YOU first.

The reason I say this: it seems to me that portions of your life are not safe for you, and its been my experience that this tends to cause people to make the same mistakes over and over.

The thing is: you are in a unique place: you KNOW this to be a fact - thus you are liberated to make different choices.

It's painful and scary - but by breaking with your past life, you can build a new one that is far better. And if your husband does change for the better (one can always hope!) you will both have a new and good life to live.

THEN go back to school. You'll find it is much more fulfilling to learn because you want to rather than as a means of possibly protecting yourself by possibly making a couple bucks more per hour.


----------

