# Emancipation...is it time???



## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

This post is as much "get it off my chest" as it is anything else. I would like feedback and hope that what I'm about to post doesn't sound too harsh. It's just that we've exhausted everything we know to do with two of our sons. Sorry if this will be long, but I'll try to be as concise as possible.

We are a blended family and have two sons (one 23 which is hers and one soon-to-be 23 which is mine) that this post is related. I'll call the one "Hers" and the other "Mine".

We have provided most of their financial support as they have tried to find their way in life. Both have been attempting college ("university" for you outside of the U.S.) and have not been very successful at the attempt. This past Christmas, we gave them both ultimatums that unless they showed improvement for the Spring term that just ended we were no longer going to provide financial support for them. By improvement, we meant that they put forth their best effort even if not stellar academic achievement.

They both indicate that they want a college education and have career paths in mind. However, neither seems too interested in actual classroom attendance. They are living the good life where we have paid for their coursework and also provided rent at their respective college institution cities. At Christmas, they both were on academic probation for their rather poor academic records (most of which was due to poor attendance). This semester, that lackadaisical attitude persisted after Spring Break and their final grades didn't improve much at all even with our very specific expectations laid out at Christmas-time.

So, here we are. Neither Hers nor Mine have full-time employment because they've been going to school. Our perspective is that we must stick to our ultimatum and cut them loose as much as it pains us to do so. We've given them both the gift of free college education and financial support up until now (5 and 4 years after high school graduation) that's been completely wasted.

July 31 is the end of our "promise" to fulfill for this academic year. I think we must cut the cord with them both at that time and instruct them that effective August 1, they will be fully self-sufficient regarding life in general. That should give them time to obtain full-time gainful employment with prospects for life's journey much more difficult without a college education.

It sickens me to think about the hardships that lay ahead of them both. As adults, my wife and I both know how difficult life can be. I don't think either of them do. It sounds so harsh to cut them loose this way, but we are only hindering their maturities at this point. They need to become responsible adults and I don't see any other manner of accomplishing that goal except to do this.

I fear that both will resent us. But, I don't see either of them moving towards responsible adulthood without such a measure. In time, hopefully the anticipated resentment will ease and they will know this was the right thing to do for them. I guess only time will tell.

So, my question to all of you is this. Are we being unreasonable and too harsh? If so, what would you recommend that we do?

Thanks for reading.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*A little struggling may well shake them into maturity!

Follow through with your promises to them, but offer them no solutions! Someone has to step up and make them think for themselves!*


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

At twenty three it's time these guys stood on their own two feet.If they are still living with you then give them two months notice that they are moving out and keep your word.The absolute worst thing you can do is give them an ultimatum and then back down,they will never believe you again.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I think you are thinking clearly all the way around.
The baby bird has to be kicked out of the nest or they will never learn to fly. Honestly, you shouldn't have paid for college/etc this long without good grades and a job prospect....


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *A little struggling may well shake them into maturity!
> 
> Follow through with your promises to them, but offer them no solutions! Someone has to step up and make them think for themselves!*


He could send them down to you to work on the ranch for the summer.I think college would look a lot better after that and grades would improve.


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## 23cm (Dec 3, 2016)

At 23, I was a combat Army officer with the lives of 55 men hanging on my judgment, skill and talent. I was a college graduate--had paid my own way through college by WORKING!!!!!. And, I had been married for two years. My mother was a single parent and had to care for three kids when my father left us, so no silver spoon privilege there. 

I think millennials have coddled, told that they were "special" and given participation trophies all their lives so that as a society, we reap what has been sown--entitled, lazy, useless, childlike miserable excuses for what used to be regarded as men and women and are now regarded as nongender specific life forms. 

So, no...I don't think you're being too harsh.

They'll never be more physically capable of coping with the realities of the world than now. They can get jobs as laborers.


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## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> He could send them down to you to work on the ranch for the summer.I think college would look a lot better after that and grades would improve.


I find your reply quite comical because both have had some pretty lousy jobs during the summer months. Cleaning out sewer lines working for a City, a cook at local Pizza restaurant, stocking clerk at a Wal-Mart store, working other retail jobs that have not been glamourous (even as a fence building farm hand for a short time).

You'd think that their eyes would have been opened to the lowest level jobs that they have had up to now.


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## Akfranklin2014 (May 9, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> I think you are thinking clearly all the way around.
> 
> The baby bird has to be kicked out of the nest or they will never learn to fly. Honestly, you shouldn't have paid for college/etc this long without good grades and a job prospect....




This...Make them get jobs and pay for college on their own. They will go to class and get the grades so they're not spending all of their own money repeating classes. And when they do, they'll have more respect and realize how they were treating you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Yep.

They've made it clear they will not grow unless forced to do so. It seems counterintuitive, but at this point, any additional "help" you provide is actually stunting them.

Follow through.

And they will struggle and maybe even fail. But you must stay the course if they are to have any chance of becoming adults. Even if they fail miserably, you need to realize you've done all you can and it's now up to them. 

You've done your job and at 23, they cannot be allowed to impinge on your life further.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> He could send them down to you to work on the ranch for the summer.I think college would look a lot better after that and grades would improve.


*Bosses grandson is an Engineering major at Texas Tech. He does all kind of work around here inclusive of repairing barbed-wire along fence lines and roundup of cattle!

Good kid, carries about a 3.4 GPA, but it definitely gives him a dose of reality about work and getting his education! Let's just say that he rests awfully well at night after a full day of work out here! 

But it does put a little spending money in his pocket for the school year!*


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## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

I REALLY appreciate your comments, guys. If anything, it sure does make me feel better that this is the best course of action.

Just calculated how much we've spent financially supporting them and the number is pretty mind-boggling (just on an annual basis). It's a shame that they haven't appreciated all that we've done for them. That, unfortunately, is nauseating to me.

The fact that we've made them get summer jobs and work while not going to class makes this situation all the more insane. We've not given either of them new cars and made them both work to pay for the "clunkers" that they currently drive. Not that we couldn't afford it, but thought that was the best course of action for them so that they wouldn't feel "entitled". Obviously, we've done something wrong along the way or they'd have "manned-up" better by now.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I decided somewhere along the line the system raised them as much or more than we did.

Your only mistake so far is worrying too much about cutting them loose. 

My eldest stopped going to school because he was headhunted out to get a lucrative job. I thought it was a little odd, but such is the life of programming. He is doing quite well, making a lot of money.

My second is a bum. And we spent the most on his education, but he partied it all away.

Our youngest took on huge course loads, graduated with top honors a year early, slammed through graduate school to get her masters in short order, again with straight A's. And she got a job.

What did any of it have to do with me? Well, at least they're all smart. That's about all I managed to actually contribute.

Good luck.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Tell you what, I lived out of a car and slept on people's couches for a few days. Best thing that happened to me was my parents kicking me to the curb. I learned to appreciate everything, they let me come back and I haven't had any big problems since. I actually ended up finishing two degrees, have a good job and nice family. I 100% believe if my parents coddled me and tried to forcibly save me, I'd still be accepting their handouts.

Just to add, I have family members as proof. Brother and sister did NOTHING and lived off my Great Uncle and Aunt until they died. Lost the house through reverse mortgage to pay for their dad's care and have NOTHING to show for it. They are now living with one of the sister's sons.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

I was a wayward college kid like this. My parents did what you're doing. They said they wouldn't pay for any more college until I showed I was ready. They were supportive and helped me find a job. I lived under their roof and paid rent that was put into a college fund for me. 

I hated that job. At some point I realized my peers were all in college and that I stood to work in menial jobs the rest of my life if I didn't join them. I was also not meeting girls or socializing much. All my old friends, in their respective colleges, were going somewhere and having fun while doing it. I started taking night classes, one at a time, paying for it with my awful salary. But I did really well academically this time around. My motivation was to get out of that menial job. I told my parents I was ready to go back and I could provide the proof with my grades. 

I think your boys will come around. It just takes kids of this generation longer to grow up. As someone mentioned already in this thread, we've coddled them and given them everything. It's time to show your boys what it's like to earn it for themselves.


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

Kids don't appreciate what they haven't had to earn. They often throw it away because it is meaningless to them. I know my kids are not typical (very academically talented and hard working) but a big part of their mindset on their college educations was set by our expectations of them. We were not going to hand them something we know they can do for themselves even if they have to struggle for it and we could just easily hand it to them. I really believe the struggle to earn something for yourself makes it much more worthwhile! Our first two kids put themselves through college by working their butts off in high school to earn merit scholarships and also by working lowly fast food jobs and saving since they were 15 years old. We did not pay a cent for their college educations, and yet they finished college with no debt at all and actually had savings left in their accounts. Now they did not go on spring break trips or study abroad like many of their friends. They held jobs, tutored for pay, and got paid internships. These things helped to pay for college and build their resumes. The oldest is 25 and is fully employed in his field and the 2nd at not quite 23 is starting her 3rd year of graduate school (fully paid for and with enough of a stipend that she js looking at buying a house). Our 3rd is Finishing his 1st year of undergrad and just got an ROTC scholarship even though he didn't need it (had merit scholarship already). He actually got money refunded back to him this year instead of paying since his scholarships were over his expenses. He wants to get through med school paid for by AF and realizes the sacrafices he faces to accomplish this. Btw, they have each gone to schools that cost over $50K/yr including housing (but didn't pay more than $10K due to scholarships). Our 4th will graduate in a year from high school and he already has enough saved for his first year assuming he gets scholarships which he should be able to get. He has worked 10-20 hours/week during his high school years (while maintaining 4.0 in the highest level courses) and just picked up his 2nd minmum wage job to get more hours this summer. 

I guarantee you that kids are less likely to throw away their college classes if they have worked long and hard to pay for it. Again, I know my kids are the exception rather than the rule theses days. Not all can get top merit scholarships and leave schhol without debt. But there are so many students at college these days that aren't ready or committed to it. If they are skipping classes and doing poorly, they don't belong there and they are throwing away YOUR money. After they have worked for awhile and saved up, then maybe they will be more ready to go to college and take it seriously.


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## Absurdist (Oct 10, 2014)

autopilot said:


> I REALLY appreciate your comments, guys. If anything, it sure does make me feel better that this is the best course of action.
> 
> Just calculated how much we've spent financially supporting them and the number is pretty mind-boggling (just on an annual basis). It's a shame that they haven't appreciated all that we've done for them. That, unfortunately, is nauseating to me.
> 
> The fact that we've made them get summer jobs and work while not going to class makes this situation all the more insane. We've not given either of them new cars and made them both work to pay for the "clunkers" that they currently drive. Not that we couldn't afford it, but thought that was the best course of action for them so that they wouldn't feel "entitled". Obviously, we've done something wrong along the way or they'd have "manned-up" better by now.


Neither you nor your wife did a bad job. It's all on them.

When I came dragging home after the nth screw up my parents greeted me. This is your home... for two weeks... after which you will go back to college, get a job or both.... but whatever you do, you won't do it here and you won't do it on our dime.

It was tough at first. I had three jobs and went to college. Excelled enough at college to go to law school (which I paid for). 45 years later I find myself the managing partner of a medium size law firm. 90 people answer to me.

Before my parents died I hosted a tribute dinner for them. I thanked them for 1. Loving me and being my parents and 2. Kicking me out on my azz. I never would have made it but for 2.


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## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

Abc123wife said:


> Kids don't appreciate what they haven't had to earn. They often throw it away because it is meaningless to them. I know my kids are not typical (very academically talented and hard working) but a big part of their mindset on their college educations was set by our expectations of them. We were not going to hand them something we know they can do for themselves even if they have to struggle for it and we could just easily hand it to them. I really believe the struggle to earn something for yourself makes it much more worthwhile!


I agree with everything that you said...and we put that into practice when they were all living at home before high school graduation. Not said in this post is that we also have two daughters in college right now (and one son still living at home in high school).

The oldest daughter (again "Hers") is 25 and the youngest daughter (again "Mine") is 21. Hers just finished her second year of graduate school and will finish in two years with a doctorate degree in pharmacy. Mine will finish her undergraduate degree and graduate magna cum laude next May and has become sort of a professors' pet serving as grader for two professors and as a student assistant for another in the math department at her university.

We raised all 4 of the college-aged kids the same and expected much from them all. It is so confounding that the boys are dead-beats in school while the girls are excelling beyond expectations (and the same for the youngest still living at home). All five are intellectually capable but the boys just don't get it.

I think that WilliamM may have said it best when he said something to the effect of we do what we can and the "system" does the rest.


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

autopilot said:


> I agree with everything that you said...and we put that into practice when they were all living at home before high school graduation. Not said in this post is that we also have two daughters in college right now (and one son still living at home in high school).
> 
> The oldest daughter (again "Hers") is 25 and the youngest daughter (again "Mine") is 21. Hers just finished her second year of graduate school and will finish in two years with a doctorate degree in pharmacy. Mine will finish her undergraduate degree and graduate magna cum laude next May and has become sort of a professors' pet serving as grader for two professors and as a student assistant for another in the math department at her university.
> 
> ...


You can't feel bad then. You have done for all of them everything you can. If you keep doing the same, you are only enabling them and stunting their maturing into responsible adults. My niece took about 18 or more years to get through college. She is approaching 40 now and still has never really held a job. She just feels entitled to be taken care of, to be educated at her own pace, to write off all student loans, to go through life with everything handed to her. She is too good to work for someone else! She wants to start as CEO. Too bad she has no experience to help her start up or run her own company. 

Some young adults get it. Others don't. Some get it later. Some never get it. Not all kids belong in colege even if they are intelectually capable and even if you know it would get them a better life. You can't force them to realize that. They may eventually get it at which time they can figure it out on their own. They may never get it and try to guilt you later about how you supposedly favored your kids who ended up doing well! They may never see their own part in throwing away the gift you tried to give them.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Remind them of the deadline and remember to change the locks.

I so agree with everyone of you guys. We have told ours that we pay for their education but they have to go to school. No school and they have to get out of my house and find a job. School should be finished in the required time. I am not paying for a 4 years degree and then you take 8. Not working for me.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

autopilot said:


> I find your reply quite comical because both have had some pretty lousy jobs during the summer months. Cleaning out sewer lines working for a City, a cook at local Pizza restaurant, stocking clerk at a Wal-Mart store, working other retail jobs that have not been glamourous (even as a fence building farm hand for a short time).
> 
> You'd think that their eyes would have been opened to the lowest level jobs that they have had up to now.


These jobs sound fairly bad all right but they were just for spending money.If they had to pay rent,car loan,student debt etc then they may have realised that they needed education to survive.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Abc123wife said:


> Kids don't appreciate what they haven't had to earn. They often throw it away because it is meaningless to them. I know my kids are not typical (very academically talented and hard working) but a big part of their mindset on their college educations was set by our expectations of them. We were not going to hand them something we know they can do for themselves even if they have to struggle for it and we could just easily hand it to them. I really believe the struggle to earn something for yourself makes it much more worthwhile! Our first two kids put themselves through college by working their butts off in high school to earn merit scholarships and also by working lowly fast food jobs and saving since they were 15 years old. We did not pay a cent for their college educations, and yet they finished college with no debt at all and actually had savings left in their accounts. Now they did not go on spring break trips or study abroad like many of their friends. They held jobs, tutored for pay, and got paid internships. These things helped to pay for college and build their resumes. The oldest is 25 and is fully employed in his field and the 2nd at not quite 23 is starting her 3rd year of graduate school (fully paid for and with enough of a stipend that she js looking at buying a house). Our 3rd is Finishing his 1st year of undergrad and just got an ROTC scholarship even though he didn't need it (had merit scholarship already). He actually got money refunded back to him this year instead of paying since his scholarships were over his expenses. He wants to get through med school paid for by AF and realizes the sacrafices he faces to accomplish this. Btw, they have each gone to schools that cost over $50K/yr including housing (but didn't pay more than $10K due to scholarships). Our 4th will graduate in a year from high school and he already has enough saved for his first year assuming he gets scholarships which he should be able to get. He has worked 10-20 hours/week during his high school years (while maintaining 4.0 in the highest level courses) and just picked up his 2nd minmum wage job to get more hours this summer.
> 
> I guarantee you that kids are less likely to throw away their college classes if they have worked long and hard to pay for it. Again, I know my kids are the exception rather than the rule theses days. Not all can get top merit scholarships and leave schhol without debt. But there are so many students at college these days that aren't ready or committed to it. If they are skipping classes and doing poorly, they don't belong there and they are throwing away YOUR money. After they have worked for awhile and saved up, then maybe they will be more ready to go to college and take it seriously.


You should be very proud of your children and what they have accomplished.It goes to prove that with enough hard work college is accessible to everyone and massive student debt is not necessary.I'm not trying to say that every student is as smart as your children but when I see students repeating semesters or even entire years that they should have sailed through it makes me wonder.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tatsuhiko said:


> I was a wayward college kid like this. My parents did what you're doing. They said they wouldn't pay for any more college until I showed I was ready. They were supportive and helped me find a job. I lived under their roof and paid rent that was put into a college fund for me.
> 
> I hated that job. At some point I realized my peers were all in college and that I stood to work in menial jobs the rest of my life if I didn't join them. I was also not meeting girls or socializing much. All my old friends, in their respective colleges, were going somewhere and having fun while doing it. I started taking night classes, one at a time, paying for it with my awful salary. But I did really well academically this time around. My motivation was to get out of that menial job. I told my parents I was ready to go back and I could provide the proof with my grades.
> 
> I think your boys will come around. It just takes kids of this generation longer to grow up. As someone mentioned already in this thread, we've coddled them and given them everything. It's time to show your boys what it's like to earn it for themselves.


I think this would be a good approach, OP. It does not kick them out of your home, but it does tell them you are not providing any extras. And it more or less forces them to come up with their own plan, which can often be the best, anyway.

Have your kids expressed any interest in any career field not college-related? Do they have any interest in joining the Army, for example?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

autopilot said:


> I agree with everything that you said...and we put that into practice when they were all living at home before high school graduation. Not said in this post is that we also have two daughters in college right now (and one son still living at home in high school).
> 
> The oldest daughter (again "Hers") is 25 and the youngest daughter (again "Mine") is 21. Hers just finished her second year of graduate school and will finish in two years with a doctorate degree in pharmacy. Mine will finish her undergraduate degree and graduate magna cum laude next May and has become sort of a professors' pet serving as grader for two professors and as a student assistant for another in the math department at her university.
> 
> ...


I have seen articles about this in the last decade or so, young men not achieving at the same level as young women anymore. Not sure of all the factors behind this phenomenon.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

autopilot said:


> I REALLY appreciate your comments, guys. If anything, it sure does make me feel better that this is the best course of action.
> 
> Just calculated how much we've spent financially supporting them and the number is pretty mind-boggling (just on an annual basis). It's a shame that they haven't appreciated all that we've done for them. That, unfortunately, is nauseating to me.
> 
> The fact that we've made them get summer jobs and work while not going to class makes this situation all the more insane. We've not given either of them new cars and made them both work to pay for the "clunkers" that they currently drive. Not that we couldn't afford it, but thought that was the best course of action for them so that they wouldn't feel "entitled". Obviously, we've done something wrong along the way or they'd have "manned-up" better by now.


Many, many, many, have had to work summer jobs, drive clunkers and begin to become self-sufficient. Mom and dad are not going to be around all the time with open wallet. 

They will soon appreciate what you have done for them when they are on their own having a Ramin Noodle kind of week. It is these weeks that make them resolve to improve their situation. Most call it growing up.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

jld said:


> I have seen articles about this in the last decade or so, young men not achieving at the same level as young women anymore. Not sure of all the factors behind this phenomenon.


lots of research on how changes in school the past 40 years are great for girls, but bad for boys. You should follow up and Google it, especially if you have boys younger than 20.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> lots of research on how changes in school the past 40 years are great for girls, but bad for boys. You should follow up and Google it, especially if you have boys younger than 20.


We homeschool, so I am not worried for my boys. My daughter has also done very well with her homeschooling background.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

They won't appreciate the money and resources you've spent on their lifestyles/livelihood until they have to cough it up for themselves. 

Unless they have a very good sense of appreciation instilled at an early age, I don't know many, if any young people who have problems spending someone else's money.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

At 23 I was a part-time college student with a full-time job AND a part-time job.

I paid my parents weekly rent and got mostly A's.

It's time.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Autopilot,

I'd say that maybe you have waited a little too long to do what needed to be done.

We essentially had to do the same as what you are proposing with our 19 YO daughter last year. 

We asked her to leave the house and find her own way last Summer after a lackluster year in college and a ton of attitude when she came home. Gave her 2 months to get out. She left a little early.

We don't regret it a bit. She needed to mature. I'd say the first 6 months was pretty rough for her, but she is finally coming around. We've seen quite a bit of personal growth in the past 6 months.

We also let her know that financial support for college in the future was available but that she had to make the investment first on her own dime. We will reimburse her in the future after the semester is over and she provides us with proof of good performance. That way she has a stake in the game and takes ownership of it. 

She complains that she doesn't have the money to take classes...but she still complains that she isn't sure what she wants to do anyway. All that just tells me that it isn't a priority for her yet. 

And the way I see it, is if it isn't a priority for her, why should it be a priority for me. It is her life after all.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

You did well, Kudos. 

You opened the door for them, rode them in on your back. They kept falling off.

Let them struggle with mediocre jobs. They will likely gain more maturity.

After a few years, send them off to a 2-year Community College. Hopefully, they will opt for a technical degree. If not, most AA Degrees certainly rate better then only a H.S. Degree.


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## cc48kel (Apr 5, 2017)

No, you need to do something!!! It's great they are working. After HS I worked a few ****ty jobs then at age 22 I wanted to attend college to get a better job. Lived rent free and they payed college as long as I produced good grades. My niece is working part-time, living rent free and as long as she produces good grades her parents will cover the costs-- she needs the guidance otherwise she easily gets side-tracked. Some friends of ours has 3 kids-- the daughter went to college no problems--great job! The other 2 boys couldn't get thru school. So you never know.. I have boys and tell them often to keep up the great work in HS; more doors will open for them. I can only hope that they continue thru college.


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## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

Quick update.

The younger of the two (Mine) and I had a conversation about life yesterday. He agreed that he needed to take charge of his life and understood that we were out on funding his life. He's taken on two jobs already since the semester has ended. One a regular M-F 7 am to 4 pm job working for the university grounds crew where he lives. The other is a weekend job working for a sprinkler system installation company.

Maybe he'll come to terms with his life's failures up to now and take ownership in those failed attempts at college at our expense. Only time will tell.

The other (Hers) we've not yet talked to because my wife is out of town for the week. We'll have a discussion with him once she gets back home.


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