# Wife "talks" about restarting things



## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

I had posted previously about the fact that I have been in a completely sex marriage for years. The sexlessness occurred after an initial period of intense enthusiasm from her followed by complete indifference.

Years ago I had made the decision to begin to separate myself mentally from her and ended any conversations or actions that were remotely sexual. As far as I was concerned our sex life was long dead.

I mentioned that there was a recent "complication" and have been visiting this site for a while to see if anyone went through something similar. The complication is she has expressed an interest in restarting things and has even made an attempt physically.

Before I get into the problems I see in restarting things, let me explain what prompted it.

She was trying on clothing and asking me for my opinion. As usual, I was giving polite responses, but I mostly just didn't care and it probably showed. She then simply asked me, "Do you still think I am hottie even though I am an "old lady?". She is in her 40s and has a good body.

I was surprised by the question. The background to this is years earlier when I was actually trying to talk to her about our sex life she had nothing to say and it was me, and me alone, trying to improve things.

Initially I simply said "Why are you asking?" And then I simply said "I don't think of you at all in that way."

This prompted a long talk and for the very first time she actually seemed to be listening. I was blunt but not angry. From my perspective this was all old news.

There are a number of problems with attempting to restart things including my anger, lack of interest and most of all mistrust.

My mistrust is fed by the fact that her sudden concern arises solely from an apparent mini midlife crisis about her sexual appeal with age and not as a result any new found sexual desire and, least of all, any concern about me or even attraction to me.

I stopped short of saying I am just waiting for our son to be old enough to handle a separation and for me to accept not living with him on a full-time basis, but that is what I have been thinking for years.

We haven't done anything yet but she wants to. I told her I need to think about it, and she finally seems to understand just how damaged our relationship is. 

I'm really not sure what to do and I simply can not understand for the life of me how any of this could possibly be "news" for her.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

What do you want? At this point, are you even interested in a marriage with her that includes sex? If she honestly was interested in working on it, would you want to as well?

On the flip side, what would her reaction be if she finds out you are just waiting until your son gets to a certain age? Will that spur her to move closer to you, or will she be insulted and start a divorce before you are ready? In short, what is the downside of trying?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I say go for the sex. You can always go back to your plan later on if it doesn't work. Its worth a try. The worst that can happen is you go back to where you are right now.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> On the flip side, what would her reaction be if she finds out you are just waiting until your son gets to a certain age? Will that spur her to move closer to you, or will she be insulted and start a divorce before you are ready? In short, what is the downside of trying?


I'm really not sure how she would react.

The downside is mostly I just don't want to go through it again. I went through a very deep depression for a few years realizing the my marriage was destined to be the hollow marriage I always swore I would never tolerate and being rejected the woman I loved. I have pulled out of it. I never want to go back.


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## Woola66 (Feb 29, 2012)

It sounds to me that you are not only after the physical part of the relationship but the emotional connection as well. It's important for us to know that our partner desires us, that they want that closeness. I would make her understand that the only way you are open to resuming a physical relationship is if it starts in the mind and heart first. Start "dating" her again and see how it goes before moving on to the next part of things. Trust needs to be rebuilt before taking that step.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Even if it is a midlife crisis....that doesn't make it temporary. SOME people have an MLC and just flip out for awhile..."looking for themselves", or their youth, or whatever. SOME people have a mini-crisis maybe freaking a bit, but mostly trying to FIX what they perceive to be wrong with their lives. Some have some honest introspection, not so much a crisis and want to work on stuff. 

MAYBE she wants to "restart" the sex life.... because she's getting older and it's a "use it or lose it" thought. Or like you said, WANTS to feel like she's not old. MAYBE you two have grown so disconnected (which I totally understand...btdt) that she can't really SAY what she means, or wants, or make it meaningful... know what I mean? 

I guess my point is..... she may be sincere in her own warped, lame kind of way. Like maybe a mini light bulb went off for her. I guess that doesn't help you.... So go with your gut. You could do it... if you have any desire to. You could take it as an olive branch, and just put your toes in the water.... start dating, see if you even want to go there. You could judge the quality of time that you have left and figure it's not worth any potential headache. 

IF you are interested, you could sit down and tell her what you need from her....like serious marriage counseling or whatever it will take for you to want to even try this relationship. The ball is in your court.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> In short, what is the downside of trying?


The downside of trying is that Lionel is afraid of being reinjured. He has finally made peace with the lack of sex and fears having to readjust again if his wife does not keep it up or makes it obvious during the act that she does not really want him.

It could be that she just "wants to be wanted" so to speak. She needs the ego boost from his pursuit.


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

LH,

Sounds like a tough situation.

1. Your wife may have ended the sexual contact, but you were a 50/50 participant by not bringing the issue to a head when it started. As a recovering nice guy, this story is very familiar to me - conflict avoidant, just deal with the problem yourself. Unfortunately, the head in the sand style of "problem solving" never works:scratchhead:

2. She may have started the problem, but your lack of engagement let it fester. Today, you are wildly resentful and blame her entirely for the sexless marriage. She is only half the problem and not the half you have control over.

3. You need to take responsibility for staying in the marriage and enduring however many sexless years. I understand the argument about your son, but query what is a better role model - a dad who takes good care of himself and his needs or one who sits back and "takes" a bad situation?

4. You wake up today with the offer by your wife to create the marriage that you have always wanted. You reject her advances because of a) trust and b) resentment. On its face, it sounds like self-sabotaging behavior. You are a man and she is a woman offering sex. On a basic biologic level, your alpha wants to do his thing and could care less about whether she has or should have been available before. Smoke screen.

If the marriage is too far gone to save, then tell your wife and go get divorced. You deserve to be happy and sexually satisfied today - not tomorrow. Get yourself in IC and work thru your issues. Read "No More Mr. Nice Guy". Be happy.

If you still love your wife, get yourself in IC and clean up your side of the street. Go work on your anger and resentment towards your wife with a therapist. You are mostly mad at yourself for putting up with this sexless crap all these years. Fix yourself, buy your wife a french maid outfit and ravish her daily to make up for all the lost time. Smile and grow old together.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

FormerNiceGuy said:


> LH,
> 
> Sounds like a tough situation.
> 
> ...


1. I didn't avoid conflict. I didn't put my head in the sand. I made it pretty clear that this is not acceptable to me. Years ago I did go through a lot of the nonsense advice people give in this situations and I began by assuming it was all my fault that she simply didn't find me attractive. Then I came to my own "man up" conclusion without any advising me as such, and just focused on myself without relying on her approval or disapproval for my self worth. In time it became clear to me that she wasn't changing or interested in changing. It was then I made a made a choice between leaving or staying and I chose to stay for my son.

2. I am very resentful of her lack of caring, but I am not resentful of the fact that she lost interest in sex. I accept that the lack of desire may be beyond her conscious control. The part I can't relate to is the complete lack of concern or even acknowledgement that her lack of interest in sex might effect me.

3. My son is too young to understand. Right now he has an excellent relationship with both of us and we are good child rearing partners. When he is older, and I will tell him that he needs to be aware of the direct and indirect societal pressure to marry and it may be not be right choice for a lot of people. There is not much else I could tell him because I am convinced that there was no way at all to predict how my marriage unfolded. 

4. Just to be very clear I am okay with purely sexual or FWB relationships. I have had them in the past. But the amount of baggage in this situation kills any thrill or interest. 

But I agree that this is forcing me to make a choice that I thought I could put off for another few years.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Lionelhutz said:


> I'm really not sure what to do and I simply can not understand for the life of me how any of this could possibly be "news" for her.


Way back when you began to detach and decided you would only stay for your kids, did you let her know? Did you give her a choice then as to whether she was willing to stay in the sexless situation or not?

If not, then no - she may not really have any idea about how you have felt. If you don't share your thoughts or feelings, she will not know them. None of us is a mind-reader.

If you want to try or are sitting on the fence about it, then I suggest that you two get yourselves into MC - there's a lot of water under that bridge and it's likely that only a professional mediator will be able to help you guys be able to determine the best way forward - whether that's together or separate. And if you can't bear the thought of that, or she won't do that, then go yourself to IC.

Don't delay - why live your life in a kind of holding pattern? Reach out and grab life - grab YOUR life - live it to its fullest - or it will surely pass you by.

Best wishes.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

The decisoin will be taken out of your hands.
Your wife is not "no desire"... She just squelched it for many years. It is becoming unsquelchable... If you choose to avoid sex and stay married, be prepared for the outcome of her finding it somewhere else.

I would tell her that you are intersted in sex just like any man but you are not a human dildo.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

You are in the best possible position. If you are willing to walk away from it all if it does not satisfy your needs, you will have her attention. I was in the same position, do this for the kids, steady hand on the tiller, don't make waves. When I manned up and proclaimed what it was going to take to satisfy my needs, then the dynamic changed to what would my wife be willing to do to keep me. That's a powerful change and one you want. No threats, not ever. Just a whole universe of possibilities that the two of you are open to pursue. Make yourself invaluable and support every emotional need of hers you can. Make it look effortless and never complain. I used the empty nest which is coming fast to create the sense of urgency but it sounds like she lit the opening volley. See it through. You both need the healing whether your future lives are together or apart.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

By the way, one of those needs of hers is to feel gorgeous and irresistible. Your first fundamental course change would need to not only be thinking about her "that way" but to have her absolutely trust it and believe it to her core. Just sayin'


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

DTO said:


> The downside of trying is that Lionel is afraid of being reinjured. He has finally made peace with the lack of sex and fears having to readjust again if his wife does not keep it up or makes it obvious during the act that she does not really want him.
> 
> It could be that she just "wants to be wanted" so to speak. She needs the ego boost from his pursuit.


While I don't disagree that this was very likely his downside (and it actually turns out it was), I wanted to make sure I understood what he thought. It is all to easy to assume how a poster feels or thinks, and I wanted to avoid that.

Lionel - What I am reading from your posts is that you don't trust her. Don't trust her to be looking out for you and don't trust her to chance being hurt by her again. Does she know that you don't trust her? I agree with Enchantment that MC, along with telling her that you need to regain that trust, would be useful. Personally, I would also want to get at why this sudden interest.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Your fear of being vulnerable to her again is keeping you on the fence. I think you may have to start a new marriage, just like people who are reconciling from infidelity. She has to do the heavy lifting of making you feel safe with her. You have to decide if you are willing to trust your heart to her. 

I would set a time period to see if she is sincere. That way you do not have to feel that you are dangling out there forever, being vulnerable to her coldness.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Enchantment said:


> Way back when you began to detach and decided you would only stay for your kids, did you let her know? Did you give her a choice then as to whether she was willing to stay in the sexless situation or not?
> 
> If not, then no - she may not really have any idea about how you have felt. If you don't share your thoughts or feelings, she will not know them. None of us is a mind-reader.


There wasn't a single conversation where I said, "I'm just waiting for our son to come of age and then separate"

But there was a long series of conversations in which I told her that I won't live like this permanently. Around the same time she casually announced that she didn't want sex ever again. Later I specifically told her that my sex life was no longer any of her business when she asked me once if I masturbated or watched porn. For the most part I stopped sleeping in the same room around the time I made my decision.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Tall Average Guy - Yes trust is big and as said I am concerned about her motives. I am just as uninterested in guilty sex as pity sex.

Without any real sexual desire of her own, then I would rather not start. Plus now I have to contend with my own lack of desire for her. The thought of it just seems awkward and sad.

Counselling may be the only choice, but I have been to individual counselling in the past to deal with the severe depression that followed giving up on my marriage. I found it useless as was the AD medication I received from my doctor. It accomplished nothing that time would not have solved.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Cre8ify said:


> By the way, one of those needs of hers is to feel gorgeous and irresistible. Your first fundamental course change would need to not only be thinking about her "that way" but to have her absolutely trust it and believe it to her core. Just sayin'


Maybe not. It's been observed that the refusing spouse can get this need met without sex (or with minimal sex). If that is the case, then satisfying this need may work against him.

Suppose his wife wants to feel wanted but does not want sex. So she flirts with him, and when he moves towards sex she (having confirmed her desireability) turns him down. The cycle will repeat, with occassional sex reflecting her needs, not his (or maybe just to maintain his interest if he pulls away).

While he should resume sex if her renewed interest is genuine, I would suggest the opposite if he finds himself in this situation. A sexual moratorium would show that he does not need her and that she cannot use him to meet her needs. At the same time, it would reinforce his sense of strength and self-esteem.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Lionelhutz said:


> Tall Average Guy - Yes trust is big and as said I am concerned about her motives. I am just as uninterested in guilty sex as pity sex.


As I noted, it may be neither. It might be "I need you to want me" sex, in which case your approach can take on more of a "we each have something the other wants" approach directly relating to sexuality. More mutuality than might otherwise be the case, for instance.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

DTO said:


> As I noted, it may be neither. It might be "I need you to want me" sex, in which case your approach can take on more of a "we each have something the other wants" approach directly relating to sexuality. More mutuality than might otherwise be the case, for instance.


If Lionel can handle this (essentially FWB with her), then I say go for it. My suspision, however, is that would be too difficult for him.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

DTO--You are right. What I failed to mention was that 6 month sex moratorium is the best way possible to take away her bargaining position. I just can't imagine FWB pity sex being a good answer because that is what led me to the nuclear option.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

I can't really consider a FWB situation with her. There is no way it could ever be that simple for either of us. 

If I am going to do it, it is going to be with an idea of working on the marriage. 

Cre8ify - I'm not sure what you mean by a six month moratorium on sex. We had this conversation a few weeks ago. We have gone years without sex. I'm not trying to "bargain" with her. I don't care if she "agrees" to have sex with me at this stage. What I want to know is if she is capable of wanting sex. 

When it comes down to it, I guess I am simply making a decision to try and revive my marriage or not.


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## isla~mama (Feb 1, 2012)

Well that's remarkable (or maybe not), as the same exact situation has brought me here.

After 16 years of a sexless marriage and husband denying there was any problem whatsoever, he poured his heart out to me about how sorry he was, how the lack of sex has poisoned our relationship, blah blah. This was in late jan/ early feb.

For many years I had tried to elicit this kind of heartfelt acknowledgement from him on the sex issue but gave up completely approximately 6 years ago (with the attempts waning for years before that).

The night of his heart-pouring he asked for sex. I was so stunned and sad that I just went along with it but found myself feeling completely dead physically and emotionally during. That he thought nearly 2 decades of neglect could be made up for and started up like unpausing a movie sickened me.

So on top of the sexlessness I'm now facing a plethora of other issues. I'm no longer attracted to him-- whether I've changed, or have been poisoned by anger and resentment, I don't know. There's nothing patently unattractive about him but i can't even "see" him anymore, much less desire him.

I have a deep seated fear that were I to awaken a sexual response to him (assuming I even could) that he will close up shop again and disappear. In fact he essentially did this as in subsequent weekends he didn't ask or only half-heartedly asked for sex (I cannot initiate, the emotional wall is too high). 

Another problem-- I don't believe he really wants to. His awkward healf-heartedness reeks of acquiescence, and I find his expectations galling. "Start having sex with wife" was on the list in between fixing the sidewalk and replacing the basement furnace-- i.e. unsavory tasks he's been putting off indefinitely but now is finally facing. (He says that since the Mayans predicted an apocalypse in 2012, he's getting his affairs in order. Seriously???)

Another issue I'm facing is my demolished self-image. He could tell me I'm beautiful a thousand times and I would still be convinced that he finds me hideous. I could weigh myself a thousand times and still think I'm overweight (I'm not). If a woman feels unattractive, it's not exactly easy to transform into a sex kitten.

Given all these resentments, fears, and self-doubts, the sexual openness and spontaneity I implored him to let me give to him for more than a decade has shriveled up. I came away from that time having sex feeling violated physically and emotionally in a way I'd never experienced before. The translation of all this is that the sex was awful and tore open a wound I'd rather have kept bandaged up.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

It is possible that her hormones have shifted. I'm 40 and I get hornier every year. Many women feel an increase in sex drive in their 40's. Im with you though, if you're sleeping in different rooms and you're only there to be with your son, sex would be weird. If she wants to work on the marriage, then work on it. But who knows, I have no clue what goes through the heads of women who marry expecting to never have sex so I can't say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## isla~mama (Feb 1, 2012)

Weird sums it up. The last time before that overture was when my five month old was conceived.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

isla~mama said:


> Well that's remarkable (or maybe not), as the same exact situation has brought me here.
> 
> .


Wow that is spooky just how similar the situations are. Did your husband ever have a high drive?

That is one of the things that I find so difficult to forgive. Unlike many non-sexual spouses, my wife had a very high drive at one point. In fact she both talked the talk and walked the walk. In our early years together she is the one that would talk about the importance of our sex life making time to be together. I know for certain that if she ever had came to me in the first few years of our marriage and said she was feeling neglected or just plain ol extra horny, I would have recognized it as my place to help meet her needs and would have been happy to do so.

Now, given all that has happened, when I think about restarting our sex life it just seems so forced and awkward.


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Lionelhutz said:


> The part I can't relate to is the complete lack of concern or even acknowledgement that her lack of interest in sex might effect me.


Let's assume for a second that she has just been taking good care of herself. She didn't want sex, so she stopped. From her perspective, you reciprocated by eliminating sexual contact with her. There were some conversations etc., but at the end of the day, you "went away" sexually and dropped the issue.

She wanted this outcome, got what she wanted and you agreed to the change. Since everyone in the relationship is making volitional choices, as an adult, she has been right all along to assume that you are doing exactly what you want. Why give the decision another thought?

There is no reason to "resent" her. She was upfront about not wanted a sexual relationship with you. She told you, you had conversations and sex was eliminated. If you cared enough about sex to resent her all these years later, then you weren't being honest about how much it mattered when she cut you off.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Lionelhutz said:


> My mistrust is fed by the fact that her sudden concern arises solely from an apparent mini midlife crisis about her sexual appeal with age and not as a result any new found sexual desire and, least of all, any concern about me or even attraction to me.


You already know the answer to this and here it is. 

I wouldn't shut the door on this but I certainly wouldn't be jumping to make HER feel better about herself either. If she wants sex she will need to work on the relationship FIRST. I mean a sincere, you will feel it to your soul type work. Do not have sex with her until your resentment is gone.

It was wrong what she did to you and she needs to own that. A few conversations won't cut it. Besides actions speak louder than words. That is why your gut is telling you this is more about her aging than remorse over how she cut you off.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I agree. You never gave her a consequence. As a result, she doesn't think she ever did anything wrong or that she has a disfunctional marriage. Therefore, in the marriage you have allowed where her desires define the entire marriage, it's perfectly normal for her to decide she wants sex again and expect you to provide it.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

FormerNiceGuy said:


> Let's assume for a second that she has just been taking good care of herself. She didn't want sex, so she stopped. From her perspective, you reciprocated by eliminating sexual contact with her. There were some conversations etc., but at the end of the day, you "went away" sexually and dropped the issue.
> 
> She wanted this outcome, got what she wanted and you agreed to the change. Since everyone in the relationship is making volitional choices, as an adult, she has been right all along to assume that you are doing exactly what you want. Why give the decision another thought?
> 
> There is no reason to "resent" her. She was upfront about not wanted a sexual relationship with you. She told you, you had conversations and sex was eliminated. If you cared enough about sex to resent her all these years later, then you weren't being honest about how much it mattered when she cut you off.


First of all, she wasn't "upfront" at all. Just the opposite. Initially she was sexual, then she was merely avoiding and none responsive. She only clearly stated that she was uninterested years after it was obvious.

Secondly, I only "dropped the issue" when it was clear that she had no sex drive and didn't care. It wasn't the case of simply saying "Gee Honey I would really like sex...what do you think?" 
I wasn't interested in pity sex or sex simply because she was afraid of losing me. So I didn't threaten to leave the relationship and then see if sex happened. I was either going to leave or stay. 

Finally, if that is the model of love and marriage you propose then it's not for me. I''m not saying that to be argumentative but it is a conclusion I am coming to. I would much prefer either causal FWB relationships or perhaps serial monogamy without the complexities of ending the relationship or the emotional investment on my end.

My understanding of love and marriage was very much wrapped up with watching out for your spouse and making his or her needs a priority. I do accept now that in a long term relationship that may be unrealistic. A large number of both men and women are unable to maintain that mindset after the first few years.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

Your situation is very puzzling to me but I think the best approach is a simple one. What has changed in your wife to be a catalyst for change? Is her restart initiative couple centric or is it personal? Intimacy makes everything else in a relationship richer and more fulfilling. Every shared experience takes on new significance when there is such trust in the marriage that you have shared everything about yourself. Is there any chance she has come to this realization and felt the hollowness you tried to describe to her. That would be cool but also would require some serious introspection. You know your wife and if this is possible. Conversely, maybe she has decided that her appeal is calloused over by atrophy and she is self-improving. Her motives could be questionable and selfish (attracted to someone else, finding emotional support elsewhere, midlife issues) but not necessarily so. Any change we want to make has to start with ourselves. We compartmentalize things as men and continue to manage even if some aspects are dysfunctional. Women, not so much. The fact that her emotional needs are not being met may have just hit critical mass and boiled over. You have to trust like you've never trusted to expose yourself to her. Talk, text,write letters, see a therapist, argue, walk away..do whatever you have to do to elucidate what's real.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Cre8ify said:


> Your situation is very puzzling to me but I think the best approach is a simple one. What has changed in your wife to be a catalyst for change? Is her restart initiative couple centric or is it personal? Intimacy makes everything else in a relationship richer and more fulfilling. Every shared experience takes on new significance when there is such trust in the marriage that you have shared everything about yourself. Is there any chance she has come to this realization and felt the hollowness you tried to describe to her. That would be cool but also would require some serious introspection. You know your wife and if this is possible. Conversely, maybe she has decided that her appeal is calloused over by atrophy and she is self-improving. Her motives could be questionable and selfish (attracted to someone else, finding emotional support elsewhere, midlife issues) but not necessarily so. Any change we want to make has to start with ourselves. We compartmentalize things as men and continue to manage even if some aspects are dysfunctional. Women, not so much. The fact that her emotional needs are not being met may have just hit critical mass and boiled over. You have to trust like you've never trusted to expose yourself to her. Talk, text,write letters, see a therapist, argue, walk away..do whatever you have to do to elucidate what's real.


I would also add that it is very likely that her motivies are not singular, in that there may be mutliple reasons for this change. For example, hormones causing her to want sex, getting older and realizing she does not want to regret not being desired, and looking at you and wanting you to be the person that desires her. I say this not to defend her or sway you, but rather to alert you, so that you don't focus on one and inadvertantly miss the other reasons.

While the latter reason may be good for you, the first two may not be so much. It will be a challenge for you to sort through this, judge it as a whole, and decide what you want.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Lionel,
If you were single, would you avoid dating altogether to avoid getting hurt again? Would you intend to divorce your wife when your son is older, and just remain single for the rest of your life? If so, then that is your answer.

If you still feel life would be "fuller" with a loving partner, is it your wife or someone else? Either answer means you are still willing and capable of having an emotional connection. 

Third option is you live the rest of your life "guarded". Only giving part of yourself to someone else, ready to bolt if they make a false move. Kinda like limbo forever. 

I feel for you, this must be difficult. Good luck


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

You guys are way over-analyzing this. 

Sounds to me like his wife simply wants sex. Who the f*ck cares why? She probably would not be able to say why. Look, if he's got a shot at getting a piece then I say he should STFU and tap her. 

If he doesn't she'll get someone else to. OP needs to lose the Mr Rogers complex and take care of business.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## isla~mama (Feb 1, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> You guys are way over-analyzing this.
> 
> Sounds to me like his wife simply wants sex. Who the f*ck cares why? She probably would not be able to say why. Look, if he's got a shot at getting a piece then I say he should STFU and tap her.
> 
> ...


Let's say he takes care of business and she shuts down again. What then? He politely stews in his frustration?

For a number of years I would "take care of business" if my husband showed even the slightest inkling. Yet I found the constant blank spaces in between increasingly painful and frustrating, not to mention humiliating. As those blank spaces grew longer and longer, I stopped being as enthusiastic about his tepid, rare advances, until I reached the point where I viewed them with more trepidation than anything else. 

When I was a child we had an outdoor cat, but when we moved from a tropical environment to a frigid one (near canada) we had to keep the cat indoors during winter. My mother refused to let the cat in the house so she kept it locked in the basement. The cat would meow and meow at the basement door wanting to be let in to the house.

Once I was old enough to realize how horrid this was, I went behind my parents' back and opened the door for the cat. The cat just looked at me, stunned and blinking, but didn't move. For all its meowing at the door, each winter, for years, it clearly was used to the basement and was staying there.

Maybe if the door had been opened the first year, or the second or third, the cat would have sauntered out. I don't think we humans are much unlike that cat. Once you grow accustomed to a certain degree of isolation it's difficult to break the habit, particularly in the context of those who have hurt you.

To the OP, my husband has always been LD but I was dumb enough in my younger years to assume that he was uptight about premarital sex for religious reasons-- I fully expected our sexual relationship to blossom once we got married.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Lionel - I disagree with Formerniceguy and bandit and completely agree with you (I am close to the start of what you encountered). She neglected you for years and now, for some reason, has come a knockin'. One can only presume it is for selfish reasons - her hormones make her want it or to assuage guilt. I think when you disregard your husband's want, needs, and happiness, you abandon the marriage. 

I do not think anyone can really help with the decision, it really must be based on your read of the circumstances and the possibility of reconnecting. Plus, trust and attraction issues. I know that I have lost something for my W because, after understanding that there was a problem with our relationship, she mainly ignored it and me and put forth a paltry effort for which she wants undeserved accolades. When you think of your wife and think "what kind of person does that", you begin to lose attraction for her. I assume your attraction must be pretty long-gone.

I would ask, how long before your son is old enough for you to move out. Shut-down town is not as miserable as rejectionville, but if there is something there, maybe there is another, nicer stop on your relationship's highway?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

isla~mama said:


> Let's say he takes care of business and she shuts down again. What then? He politely stews in his frustration?


Exactly. This isn't some ONS this is his WIFE.


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## Posse (Jan 30, 2012)

I'm jealous.

If it were me in the situation, I'd be [email protected] the wife like a screen door in a hurricane. 

When I discussed the no sex issue with my wife this week, I was told, "Hire a lawyer and you can have all the sex you want."

I'm taking her advice under serious consideration.

I have some serious anger and emotional disconnect going on myself. That said, I'd get what I can while I can. 

Why? Life is short, and it isn't a dress rehearsal. In My opinion, Angry/Duty/Selfish sex is better than no sex, but that's me.


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## effess (Nov 20, 2009)

Lionel seriously needs think about if he wants to save his marriage. If it were me, I would for the sake of my child(ren). I have no interest in being a part time father. But I'm not saying that to judge you, just my own motivations. 

If you want to save your marriage, you two need sit down and talk and re-hash this stuff all over again. Communicate so you can trust her intentions (if they are honorable) - it is obvious that you have serious trust issues with her after so many years. Then if you still want to re-initiate intimacy again, go for it. 
If you are done with this marriage, even with her last gasp efforts now - don't have sex and be upfront about it.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> You guys are way over-analyzing this.
> 
> Sounds to me like his wife simply wants sex. Who the f*ck cares why? She probably would not be able to say why. Look, if he's got a shot at getting a piece then I say he should STFU and tap her.


LOL! Ya that would be awesome. Except my wife is not a hot but crazy girlfriend where the only thing we share is awesome sex.

I guess the key points that I am not making clear is that I don't have the hots for her anymore. I just didn't give up trying, I have zero desire for her. At the moment if she started to seek sex elsewhere my reaction would be surprise and confusion but definitely not devastated. I guess I would have an answer.


I had made peace with all this and I wasn't sitting around feeling sorry for myself thinking "poor me". Our talk has just reopened old wounds


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

SprucHub said:


> Lionel - I disagree with Formerniceguy and bandit and completely agree with you (I am close to the start of what you encountered). She neglected you for years and now, for some reason, has come a knockin'. One can only presume it is for selfish reasons - her hormones make her want it or to assuage guilt. I think when you disregard your husband's want, needs, and happiness, you abandon the marriage.


I think that is it. I have gone through several different stages in dealing with this but in the last few years I had just accepted that I was beyond the point of no return. It would have been an easier decision even three or four years ago but now I can't help but hear her saying 
"I need to feel attractive again and since I just remembered we are married...... you will do".


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

> LOL! Ya that would be awesome. Except my wife is not a hot but crazy girlfriend where the only thing we share is awesome sex.
> 
> I guess the key points that I am not making clear is that I don't have the hots for her anymore. I just didn't give up trying, I have zero desire for her. At the moment if she started to seek sex elsewhere my reaction would be surprise and confusion but definitely not devastated. I guess I would have an answer.
> 
> ...


My friend, excuse my crude comment. I wasn't intending to offend you. 

But I have to say, in my opinion, this is a sad way to spend a life.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Thanks to everyone who responded.

I have decided to set some time aside this weekend to have another cards on the table discussion with her. I need her to give me some better answers about what the hell has been going on in her head for the last several years and why I should expect anything to be different in the future.

She seems fragile lately and that is why I have let things sit for now but guess I have to accept that the current situation is not going to last either way. The elephant has re-entered the room.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> My friend, excuse my crude comment. I wasn't intending to offend you.
> 
> But I have to say, in my opinion, this is a sad way to spend a life.


No problem. I wasn't offended. I like the just F^ck it and go for it advice :smthumbup:, it was just off the mark for this messy situation.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

That sounds like a good answer Lionel. Bandits words made me proud to be a guy. If it were so easy we wouldn't need these forums. A good poker game is always a nice trip back to Guyville.


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## frankd (Feb 22, 2012)

This strikes a chord with me and the physical relationship with my wife over the past 22 years. After a fabulously sexual first couple of years, it all dried up for no apparent reason. I too would sulk and withhold intimacy whenever I felt that she refused sex unreasonably. What always brought me back was the thought of missing the thrill and excitement of being intimate with her.

Even after a long drought (coupled with detachment, mild anger and some resentment), one sexual encounter would re-ignite all the love and affection that I had for her since the moment we met. Every negative thought and feeling was dissipated.

I discovered that I felt rejected and ignored when she turned me down. That was never her intent, and I'll bet it isn't the intention of most women who turn down their partners for sex. 

I also determined that my wife simply thought that sex after certain life events just wasn't expected and did not understand why I was still interested. That is, we're married, over 40, have a family, she’s losing her looks, etc., etc. On a couple’s hierarchy of needs, she just figured that we'd risen above the sex part.

Of course, nothing could be further from the truth. She's a beautiful woman and still gets me hot with just a look. You see, I was travelling east, while she was going west. It turned out to be a matter of communication. And me pouting and brooding in the corner so to speak only prolonged the recovery of our relationship. It didn't help that she has trouble talking about her feelings on this subject, so she would just go quite and accept things as they were.

What a waste of time! If only I had manned up and told her how I felt (rejected, unmanly, etc.) she probably would have given me clues (not always easy to find, I know) about how she felt and we may have been able to reconcile our divergent feelings and expectations a lot sooner.

I'm suggesting you approach the problem as one of a lack of communication and from a perspective of renewal and a chance to rekindle old feelings to try and determine where the disconnect really is.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

UPDATE

So we had another talk.

It was very emotional this time. I don't know what to make of it all yet so I don't really know what to post.

She has acknowledged that her sex drive has come back. Some of the things I thought I noticed before were true (I had caught her masturbating recently).

She asked me if I was cheating. This simply confirms my suspicions that this is partly about insecurity since a few months ago she recently met me at my office and noticed how many young attractive women work with me. Fortunately for her I strongly believe in not mixing business and pleasure.

But I asked her why does she suddenly care if I am cheating? Does she not remember me telling her my sex life was no longer her business, IN THOSE EXACT WORDS! What wife would not hear that and not say anything unless she simply didn't care??? That was my conclusion

A lot of my anger came out but there are some things I had to say. I find it hard to deal with my anger because often it seems to just disappear if she looks sad and I think it would be no problem to just put it aside , but then it suddenly springs up out of no where.

But she still has no answers at all for my key questions. Namely what the hell has been going through her head the last 10 to 15 years?

For example, another nonsexual issue I haven't talked about at length is that soon after I decided my marriage was effectively over, I went into a very deep very dark depression. For all practical purpose I might as well have been alone during that time. We were married but I was mostly invisible. 

So now she is horny and feeling insecure. So I asked her, "Why is it now that you have suddenly noticed that this man living in your house is your husband" She just started crying

For those suffering through a sexless marriage who will just say something along the lines of "just F*ck her already", what then? Her hormone surge will work itself out in a year to two and then what? 

I guess if I don't try I won't know. But over the last few years I have recovered from a depression and mentally put my marriage behind me. In a few more years, my son would be in high school and I would leave without looking back.

I finally did tell her that as far as i was concerned our marriage was over years ago. But once again, I asked her why is that surprising? But AS ALWAYS she didn't know what to say


I told her I would never have even considered treating her in the same way if the situation was reserved. I had always just assumed that part of being her husband meant that her sexual happiness was my problem. She agreed !!!! But couldn't explain why she didn't feel the same way with me. 

In short she says she loves me. She just lost her desire but never really understood how badly she hurt me because I always so self-sufficient. Of course once again, I could point out half a dozen conversations where I was telling her just the opposite. At times I literally felt I could be dead and she wouldn't notice.

Notwithstanding everything I have said, she is a good person and I don't like to see her hurting. She is a great mother but I am still not convinced she understands love and marriage the way I used to.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

That's really sad Lionel, it's even more depressing that you guys are living in a marriage that's on a stop watch. All those years wasted, I personally thought she'd give you a better answer. 

I must commend you though for being faithful throughout all of this, it takes a man of great character to do what you've done.


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## Posse (Jan 30, 2012)

Lionelhutz said:


> For those suffering through a sexless marriage who will just say something along the lines of "just F*ck her already", what then? Her hormone surge will work itself out in a year to two and then what?
> 
> I guess if I don't try I won't know. But over the last few years I have recovered from a depression and mentally put my marriage behind me. In a few more years, my son would be in high school and I would leave without looking back.


How do you know it is a temporary hormone surge and will go away in a year or two?

You are right about not knowing if you don't try.

Aren't you getting the response from your wife that you always wanted? Now that you are getting it, you are unhappy about it.

I realize that her words, and it sounds like her actions, have changed dramatically. I am reading into your post that you are upset because it is conflicting with the long term plan you had worked out to leave in a couple of years. But AREN'T YOU NOW STARTING TO GET WHAT YOU ALWAYS WANTED FROM HER, albeit more than a little late?

Maybe it won't work out long term, but maybe it will. Maybe she is going through a phase, maybe she had an epiphany. There are no guarantees in life. 

If you want to focus on the negative view, who's to say that you won't get in a freak accident two days after divorcing and end up a quadraplegic, incapable of having sex altogether with anyone? Life is full of what-ifs and possibilities both good and bad.

You seem to be focusing on the glass being half empty, when it sounds like it might be half full. You'll never know unless you try focusing on the half full portion of the glass.

Maybe you should give MC a whirl to try to get better answers to the questions you have raised in your post. 

Maybe you should try taking yes for an answer. 

You can always punch out if you need to later. You don't have to lay your heart completely out to get stomped just because you try to work on your sexual relationship.

Do you realize some of us sex starved folks would kill to have our spouses do what your wife is doing?

I'm not claiming to have the answers, but just trying to help you think this through.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Lionel,
Overall, you handled the situation badly in the past. Instead of dealing with it you buried it and to her you pretended everything was ok with you.

So the question is, do you want to handle the next phase badly ?

Let's say you stay "mentally divorced" for 5 more years. Positives: Your kid will have an intact family for 5 more years. You could find another sexual woman at that time. Negatives: His young adulthood and adulthood would still be marred by divorce. The sexual woman you find in the future could still break your heart. You will suffer in lovelessness for 5 more years (Ouch, you are not going to live forever Lionel). Financially, divorce is bad.

Lets say you rekindle with your wife: Positives: Better for your kid, you have sexual fulfillment now, finances are better if you don't divorce. Negatives: this sexual woman could again break your heart.

I think you have to look at the positives and negatives of both scenarios realizing that waiting 5 more years for love does not guarantee anything. And I think you should be able to mentally protect yourself from your wife losing her drive again. The way you do this is tell her THE MINUTE it happens, you are going to change the locks on the house, pack her bags and expect her never to return. Her acceptance of terms like this will be a measure of her sincerity.


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## isla~mama (Feb 1, 2012)

> For those suffering through a sexless marriage who will just say something along the lines of "just F*ck her already", what then? Her hormone surge will work itself out in a year to two and then what?
> 
> I guess if I don't try I won't know. But over the last few years I have recovered from a depression and mentally put my marriage behind me. In a few more years, my son would be in high school and I would leave without looking back.


If you're already planning to leave her in a few years when your child is in high school, then the logical choice is to give it an honest try for the next few years, have sex with her, try to be as open and affectionate with her as you can, and if she closes up shop again you only have to wait it out for the duration (since you plan to do that anyway).

Best case scenario she's really going to make an effort and recognize your needs. Worst case she disappears-- and you leave as planned.

I would argue, though, that a child in high school will suffer as much, if not more, through a parents' divorce, than a young child. The statistics on children of divorced parents are not good, as I'm sure you know. High school is as fragile a time as any. But you can make that decision when the time comes.



> In short she says she loves me. She just lost her desire but never really understood how badly she hurt me because I always so self-sufficient. Of course once again, I could point out half a dozen conversations where I was telling her just the opposite. At times I literally felt I could be dead and she wouldn't notice.


Odd... I could have written this about my husband. I don't understand these people (the LD/ refusing spouses). How can they be so oblivious? All I can think, in their defense, is that sex is so far off the radar for them that they genuinely don't understand the hurt deprivation causes.

You're going to have to find it within yourself to forgive her. People have forgiven each other for far worse misdeeds. Remember the amish schoolhouse massacre 2006? More than 30 amish attended the killers funeral, some of them parents of girls who had been murdered. If they can find the motivation to forgive for something so much more severe, surely we can forgive our spouses for being thick headed.

And again, worse case scenario, if she fails you again-- you leave in a few years like you had planned.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

I am sorry for all you have gone through and put up with, but you now have been given the keys to have sex again. You say she is a good person, you find her attractive and you don't want to see her hurt. 

You need IC (moreso then MC at this point). You have in the post below said:

*Does she not remember me telling her my sex life was no longer her business, IN THOSE EXACT WORDS! *

So you have remained faithful for years, when she told you to do what you need to do......why????? Obviously because sex=intimacy=emotions and you did not want sex for just sex. 

Well now you have been offered that with you spouse and it is not easy because you want that emotional spark again, which may have died. 

But you are married and you have stuck it out and played the family for years. 

Easy for me to say.... "Try it you might like it and it may work in the long run". But start with trepidation and realize it may only be a one time, one month, 6 month thing, like it is for any new relationship. Frankly life is too short......

No easy answers.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

isla~mama said:


> If you're already planning to leave her in a few years when your child is in high school, then the logical choice is to give it an honest try for the next few years, have sex with her, try to be as open and affectionate with her as you can, and if she closes up shop again you only have to wait it out for the duration (since you plan to do that anyway).
> 
> Best case scenario she's really going to make an effort and recognize your needs. Worst case she disappears-- and you leave as planned.


While it is very easy for me, sitting her on the other end of the intertubes and with no stake in the outcome, to give you advice, I think I would lean this way. If you choose that path, you need IC and MC to work through these issues to get a better answer than "I don't know" and to help you let go your resentment. There will be a lot to address and you will need help doing it.

Again, I don't have a stake in this, so if this is too much for you, I completely understand and would support you (for whatever that is worth). This is your life and you need to look out for you. Best of luck.


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## dymo (Jan 2, 2012)

> But I asked her why does she suddenly care if I am cheating? Does she not remember me telling her my sex life was no longer her business, IN THOSE EXACT WORDS! What wife would not hear that and not say anything unless she simply didn't care??? That was my conclusion


You seem to have been dropping hints here and there assuming she would piece them together. You expected her to read far more deeply into your remark about your masturbation habits being none of her business than most people would. 

Whatever comments you made, she did not realize the seriousness of the situation, and you evidently did not ensure she took them seriously. Instead, you let these resentments stew without her comprehending what was going on.

She bears huge responsibility for this mess, but don't expect her to be a mindreader.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Lionel - I think you'd be nuts to trust her. And let's say even if it did work out, and she became a sexual wife for you, don't you think you'd feel resentful that you had to suffer all those years of neglect.

This marriage is all about her whims. It's a one-sided marriage. She doesn't want to have sex, so no sex. She suddenly wants sex, so there's sex. You have no say in any of it. I would feel tremendous resentment. 

Until she demonstrates that your needs even factor into things, I'd stay away. 

You may need to accelerate your divorce plans.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Posse said:


> How do you know it is a temporary hormone surge and will go away in a year or two?


I think that's the only reasonable conclusion. She has never indicated that she considers Lionel's needs at all. If you have a sexual relationship where one partner is all take and no give, then it is temporary. At some point, her drive will reduce, or she will cease to find Lionel acceptable as a partner. At that time, the sex will stop.

Now, it is possible for her to change her opinion. And, ironically, more sex with Lionel may be one of the things that help her to rekindle her passion for him as a husband. But right now, it sounds like she's just looking for a living dildo. Whether he's willing to tolerate that in the hopes that she will change her views is something only Lionel can answer.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

isla~mama said:


> I would argue, though, that a child in high school will suffer as much, if not more, through a parents' divorce, than a young child. The statistics on children of divorced parents are not good, as I'm sure you know. High school is as fragile a time as any. But you can make that decision when the time comes.


I disagree. Young children have their self-esteem wrapped up in their view of their parents. If they think their parents are bad people, they will conclude that they are also bad. Teenagers have mentally and emotionally drawn a distinction between themselves and their parents. In fact, the stereotypical teenager goes to the other extreme. The teenager is brilliant and his parents are idiots. A kid this age will not see a failing of his parents reflecting as much on him.

Also, teenagers have already developed much of their personality. It's not unusual for a kid who gets good grades in second grade to be a delinquent in high school. But it is unusual for a tenth grade honor student to suddenly morph into a jerk.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Posse said:


> How do you know it is a temporary hormone surge and will go away in a year or two?
> 
> Aren't you getting the response from your wife that you always wanted? Now that you are getting it, you are unhappy about it.
> 
> ...


Couple of things 

Yes I would have killed years ago for her to just be horny. But that time is long gone. I know exactly what it is liked to be sex starved.

It's not what I "always wanted", it is what I what I used to want.

But I am not in urgent need to get laid. I had lots sex pre-marriage and I had assumed that eventually I would find someone else when my marriage ended.

I originally didn't really believe in marriage and was skeptical of love. When I made my commitment I didn't do it easily and I meant it.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Lionelhutz said:


> UPDATE
> 
> So we had another talk.
> 
> ...



Wow..of all the posts in this forum, this brought me to tears(atleast close to). This isn't all about sex. I can almost see his pain and the hurt he went through. I can understand why he is hesitant to open his heart yet again.

It would definitely be a big leap of faith if he decides to start things over again.




> my sex life was no longer her business,


Why exactly did she say that?


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Hicks said:


> Lionel,
> Overall, you handled the situation badly in the past. Instead of dealing with it you buried it and to her you pretended everything was ok with you.
> 
> So the question is, do you want to handle the next phase badly ?
> ...


I know I didn't go into detail, but you have accept my statement that I did not "pretend everything is ok".

I didn't ever say to her, "If we don't have sex I am leaving" because I don't really understand that.

First of all, I wasn't prepared to follow through on the threat because of my son. But even if I didn't have a child, by the time I got to the point of threatening to leave, I no longer care what her answer was.

If she couldn't find a way to at least see my needs as a problem, then that is it. It is over. It is more than a matter of pride, I simply find nothing sexually interesting about a woman having sex with me because she is afraid of losing me. It is not like I was expecting us to be constantly hot and ready to go, but as I keep saying I simply wanted her to care.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

seeking sanity said:


> Lionel - I think you'd be nuts to trust her. And let's say even if it did work out, and she became a sexual wife for you, don't you think you'd feel resentful that you had to suffer all those years of neglect.
> 
> This marriage is all about her whims. It's a one-sided marriage. She doesn't want to have sex, so no sex. She suddenly wants sex, so there's sex. You have no say in any of it. I would feel tremendous resentment.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Lionel, 

I have to admit that some of the replies made me more angry than I've been in a while from reading posts here. I'm a man in a well-performing sexual relationship, and I feel so much commonality with your goal in your marriage.

People treat a woman's, or man's, sexual desire like it is some sort of mystical bus that just shows up on its own and takes you for a while. And if it drops your wife, then she's just the victim of a lost sexual desire. We are the first generation of a long history that ever really thought this way. Outside of medical issues, people desire what is important to them. Period. My wife made the decision that marriage was an active state of being, not a piece of paper. We've had some serious issues, but neither of us could say or do the kinds of things your wife did, and actually be cruel enough to shake our head and say, "I don't know."

That said, I think there are two points that need to be at work here, in my opinion. If you want to try to make it work with her, I think you have to plunge in to both of them. I think you have the right view of marriage. It is an active state of "being married", which means that both of you promise to put aside resentment, and elevate each other in your day to day life. I think you have to tell her that her agreement is a condition of the marriage. The thing that fuels our sex life is that both of us view 'being married' as a daily exercise of giving. When we actually look and see the giving actions of the other one, the marriage becomes important, and desire follows. My wife says that it is natural for her desire sex because I'm focused on her needs, and she is focused on self-examination as to whether she is doing the same.

The second part is transforming the way you view divorce. Right now, you are treating it like you hold the cards, and the decision. We'll, she does. Let's face it. The marriage is a paper document only for her. (I'm exagerating to make a point) She obviously hasn't been being actively married through your depression, and in the intimacy because she didn't ask herself what she was doing for the marriage every day. She has always had the choice of 'being single' or 'being married', in a sense, because her view of sexuality is that both of you have to suffer the consequences of whatever her desire chooses. If you tell her that you simply cannot live in a marriage where one of you is not actively 'being married' and elevating each other's needs above your own every day, then the choice to divorce is on her. I'm not really talking about sex, but the mindset that makes us want it more regularly. The moment she steps out of that mindset, she is choosing to be single. Any time you begin to doubt the intimacy, you can ask her if she can describe what she is doing for the marriage. She has to quit looking for the bus and look for the marriage instead. So many little acts of giving for each other really naturally lead to a more frequent, healthy sex life. If she begins to speak about losing her desire for sex, take the sex word out and make it about losing her desire to be married. She doesn't desire intimacy with you because she has always chosen to be disconnected from seeing the love you put into the marriage with her, and she does not hold herself accountable to continuously working on the marriage. With that mindset, when my wife went through times where her desire went down, it was just so natural to accept it because it obviously wasn't something that she was doing out of negligence.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Lionel - I believe she just did not get it, did not connect sex and intimacy, and sex and love, and would not listen to you. Without books to verify it, my wife would not believe me that my asking for more intimacy was not me just being a horn dog. She does not relate the two, and would never have taken my word for it. It shows me that she doesn't trust me or know me. Even after reading the books (which demonstrates a sincere effort on her part) she still does not really get it, but is trying somewhat.

But what she would not be capable of is ignoring me if something was wrong. If I were depressed or angry, either because it reflected badly on her or because she loves me, she could not ignore me or sit idly by.

Your wife likely did not understand, and wouldn't trust you. I cannot understand that thinking - and it sounds like neither can you. Love to me means wanting to do what is necessary to make the other person happy. Your wife seems like, years ago, she did not understand that physical intimacy was necessary, and was not willing to trust you that it was. Now, because of the return of her drive, she understands.

It is sort of like someone admitting something after they are caught. It took her until she was horny to understand. And that might be too late. If you aren't at all attracted to her that is understandable. She asked you if you thought she was attractive. Know what is not attractive, a wife who thrusts a knife into your heart and turns and turns and turns, then steps over your body like its not there each time she needs to get something from the fridge. 

You say she's a good mom - good moms, bosses, people lead by example. Has she shown a good example of what your son should expect from his wife? A good example of what a loving relationship should be?

That said, maybe you can teach her to love you before you rekindle anything. See if she is willing to do things without asking why. Do not test her, just see if she has it in her to think about you first.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> Wow..of all the posts in this forum, this brought me to tears(atleast close to). This isn't all about sex. I can almost see his pain and the hurt he went through. I can understand why he is hesitant to open his heart yet again.
> 
> It would definitely be a big leap of faith if he decides to start things over again.
> 
> ...


I have noticed that I put this in the "Sex in Marriage" area. But you are right it moved beyond that issue long ago. I guess it is just me being a man . On some level I do feel that as long as she is agrees to have sex with me, I am supposed to just deal with the rest and be happy, but obviously that isn't working out so great.

IN terms of what she said... well nothing. She just looked hurt. She has confirmed what I suspected, she was mostly just avoiding the entire subject of sex.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is very good. Actually if she "persists" you should use this situation to "force" some basic comprehension. 

1. When her desire disappeared she had a responsibility to find some level/type of sexual interaction that you could live with. And YES if her desire was so far gone that she had lost the ability to be aroused even after extended foreplay this WOULD have required her to make a sacrifice for you. So what, I am sure you have made many sacrifices for her and often were happy solely because you were making her happy. 
2. Her choice to "pretend" this was a non-issue was basically a decision to violate the concept that you two are partners. Incredibly selfish. 
3. I think you are right about her motives. This is still ALL ABOUT HER, she wants to be reassured that she is desirable. She is not trying to find a way to express her love FOR YOU. 

If you are willing to be honest with her, you have the conversation above and you add "I would prefer to stick with my current plan which is to leave when our son reaches "x" age, in "y" years. He is the only reason I have stayed all these years. 

If that WAKES her up the next step is understanding/fixing the underlying reason she thought she could shut down your sex life to begin with. If she isn't willing to address THAT, I don't see how you can possibly get anywhere. If she IS willing to address that, maybe things can get better. 

That said love - the real thing is some mix of two powerful and complementary desires:
1. To consistently make an effort to please your partner and do things that make them feel important and valued. 
2. To consistently make an effort to avoid doing things that cause your partner distress and that make them feel unimportant and devalued. 

If she cannot/will not grasp 1 and 2 you are wasting your time and almost ensuring another round of broken hopes and disappointment. 




Lionelhutz said:


> 1. I didn't avoid conflict. I didn't put my head in the sand. I made it pretty clear that this is not acceptable to me. Years ago I did go through a lot of the nonsense advice people give in this situations and I began by assuming it was all my fault that she simply didn't find me attractive. Then I came to my own "man up" conclusion without any advising me as such, and just focused on myself without relying on her approval or disapproval for my self worth. In time it became clear to me that she wasn't changing or interested in changing. It was then I made a made a choice between leaving or staying and I chose to stay for my son.
> 
> 2. I am very resentful of her lack of caring, but I am not resentful of the fact that she lost interest in sex. I accept that the lack of desire may be beyond her conscious control. The part I can't relate to is the complete lack of concern or even acknowledgement that her lack of interest in sex might effect me.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lionel,
I agree she is a good mother - because you say so and you know. I don't agree that she is a good person. She knew you were depressed and knew why. She pretended not to understand. I call this "willfull incomprehension" and it is toxic. 

She is still claiming she "didn't understand" what a big deal this was. Until she is willing to come clean - why trust her. She absolutely is being very dishonest about the whole situation. 

This is not how a "good person" behaves. 



Lionelhutz said:


> I have noticed that I put this in the "Sex in Marriage" area. But you are right it moved beyond that issue long ago. I guess it is just me being a man . On some level I do feel that as long as she is agrees to have sex with me, I am supposed to just deal with the rest and be happy, but obviously that isn't working out so great.
> 
> IN terms of what she said... well nothing. She just looked hurt. She has confirmed what I suspected, she was mostly just avoiding the entire subject of sex.


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

LH -

I am struggling to see how this is all your wife's fault. Your wife's behavior did not "make you go into a deep dark depression". She did not and does not have that kind of power over you or any other adult. 

You are not a victim, just a guy who chooses to live in a sexless marriage. Since you continue to voluntarily make that choice and do nothing to change the status quo, what is there to be mad about?

With your wife's new sexual interest, you are exhibiting the same victim behavior again. Originally, you wanted sex and she wouldn't give it to you, so you went sulking away and grew yourself a big pot of resentment.

Now, wife wants to have sex and you are stewing away again, adding to the pot of resentment because her behavior made you so miserable all of these years.

Do you want to be happy?

If yes, then a) go to MC and get all of this out on the table, reconcile and start having great sex with your wife or b) be honest with your wife by telling her you are checked out and will only remain in the marriage until your son leaves home and then you will divorce her. If she has any self-esteem, she will make the choice for you.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

FormerNiceGuy said:


> LH -
> 
> I am struggling to see how this is all your wife's fault. Your wife's behavior did not "make you go into a deep dark depression". She did not and does not have that kind of power over you or any other adult.
> 
> ...


:iagree: :iagree:

The only other point I would add, is that in all of this there is one element that you will have to master - and master mightily. And that element is ... forgiveness.

Whether you go forward with trying to reconcile with your wife, or whether you separate and go your own ways, you will have to take that cauldron of brewing resentments off the fire, and forgive. Forgive yourself, forgive your wife. You won't be able to effectively move forward in ANY relationship without that.

"_To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you_." - L. B. Smedes

Best wishes.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Lionelhutz said:


> UPDATE
> 
> So we had another talk.
> 
> ...


First of all your post fills me with great sadness. It also confirms to me what I've always believed. That many women do not really understand the men they have chosen to marry (or any man for that matter). In reading _His Needs, Her Needs_ I was struck by a particular paragraph when Dr. Harley was talking about how women do not understand a man's need for sexual connection. He stated that in some cases he actually prescribed a testosterone patch for these wives to wear who were in utter and complete denial over the sexual issues in their marriage. He said each and every one of them came to understand their husband's need for sex. They all also exclaimed that they were never ever going to wear that testosterone patch again.

I was on the other end of that spectrum 20 years ago. I did not understand my wife's need for more affection and communication. While the resulting affair was hers and hers alone to own I realized during R that I needed to try to understand her needs more and try to fulfill them. The result is the great marriage we have now and although I wish it could have been achieved with less dramatic means I am happy with where we are and have been for the last two decades. When I have given advice it is from these hard learned lessons and many years of difficult adjustments made by both spouses. Sometimes the only way to get a spouse to realize the gravity of a problem is to drop a nuke into the relationship. In our case it was my wife's affair (something I do not recommend for obvious reasons) but in others it might need to be a separation or divorce. If you take the hammer off the table there is really no way to drive the point home.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

FormerNiceGuy said:


> If yes, then a) go to MC and get all of this out on the table, reconcile and start having great sex with your wife or b) be honest with your wife by telling her you are checked out and will only remain in the marriage until your son leaves home and then you will divorce her. If she has any self-esteem, she will make the choice for you.


I disagree with this. I think working a reconcilation is a worthwhile goal, and if he chooses to do so, I strongly urge MC.

But to suggest that after years of abuse, he should just pop up and act like nothing is wrong is absurd. He is completely valid to feel no attraction and doubt her motives. She has displayed incredibly selfish behavior throughtout her marriage and the idea that he should ignore that and take on the blame, and that the only thing stopping him from having a great sex life is him is willfully ignorant of the damage to the marriage she has caused.

I do agree with Enchantment that LH needs to move toward forgivining his wife regardless of the path that he chooses. He needs to do so to avoid the bitterness and ahte that can result. She is the mother of his kid and he will need to deal with her, so getting to that point is a healthy goal.


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> She has displayed incredibly selfish behavior throughtout her marriage and the idea that he should ignore that and take on the blame, and that the only thing stopping him from having a great sex life is him is willfully ignorant of the damage to the marriage she has caused.


Respectfully disagree TAG. What is incredibly selfish about not wanting sex? I know a couple that is self proclaimed "low drive" and they seem happy and have been married for about 20 years. Wouldn't work for me, but works for them. The wife of the OP grew to not want sex and that was her choice. 

OP agreed to the "new" terms for some incredibly long period of time like 10 plus years. Problem is that he has been  the whole time. 

The only thing I "blame" the OP for is putting up with an untenable situation. He wasn't being honest with himself or his wife or he wouldn't be so resentful today. He should have told her that sex was a priority and then acted accordingly to fix it or move on.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

FormerNiceGuy said:


> Respectfully disagree TAG. What is incredibly selfish about not wanting sex? I know a couple that is self proclaimed "low drive" and they seem happy and have been married for about 20 years. Wouldn't work for me, but works for them. The wife of the OP grew to not want sex and that was her choice.


The key is that it works for *them*. It is a mutual decision made by then within their marriage. If one had unilaterally decided no sex, after have led thier spouse into a committment to only have sex with each other, and not caring to even address it when the issue was raised, I would term that selfish.



> OP agreed to the "new" terms for some incredibly long period of time like 10 plus years. Problem is that he has been  the whole time.


Exactly. She was told he did not like it, but she did not care. She was worried about her convenience, not his.



> The only thing I "blame" the OP for is putting up with an untenable situation. He wasn't being honest with himself or his wife or he wouldn't be so resentful today. He should have told her that sex was a priority and then acted accordingly to fix it or move on.


He did tell her that. Based on these posts and others, she did not care. So he withdrew from her so that he could stay with his kid. 

Perhaps your post was not intend to blame him, but the idea that he can just get over it and have a great sex life is not supported. That is one possibility, assuming his wife's motives are honest. But nobody, including LH, knows if they are, and to advise him to just dive in is not warrented.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

FormerNiceGuy said:


> LH -
> 
> I am struggling to see how this is all your wife's fault. Your wife's behavior did not "make you go into a deep dark depression". She did not and does not have that kind of power over you or any other adult.
> 
> ...


When the OP describes the hurt he feels from her continual lack of empathy as a component of marriage, and how he coped, this is far different from saying that he is blaming her for his problems. The lack of empathy is there. It's not like he is saying that she wakes up each day with the intention of showing no empathy - it just isn't there. When he sank into depression, it just wasn't there, and there is nothing magical about it - her relationship dynamic with him is just a low empathy dynamic. People can lock into role-dependent dynamics, such as being high empathy with children, but low empathy with a person that they are very dependent upon financially or supportively.

I understand that some people are saying that he should accept her sexual interest as is, and see if she'll naturally adress her unwillingness to incorporate empathy into the marriage dynamic, but it does seem like she's making it clear that the sex is being offered because it is something she wants. My wife even admits that she struggles with empathy for me, although she expects it automatically. I wouldn't be surprised if the OP's wife had the same perplexing view. But it seems like the replies in this thread make it sound as if empathy will just suddenly spring into her psychological makeup if he re-engages. It is far more likely that she is only seeking what she knows already. Hence the confused expressions when he asks her about what is in it for him.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FormerNiceGuy said:


> Respectfully disagree TAG. What is incredibly selfish about not wanting sex? I know a couple that is self proclaimed "low drive" and they seem happy and have been married for about 20 years. Wouldn't work for me, but works for them. The wife of the OP grew to not want sex and that was her choice.


What is selfish is that she changed the rules of the game after Lionel was committed. If Lionel's wife had told him, up front, that a marriage between them would be sexless, then I would absolve her of any blame for having a sexless marriage.



FormerNiceGuy said:


> OP agreed to the "new" terms for some incredibly long period of time like 10 plus years. Problem is that he has been  the whole time.
> 
> The only thing I "blame" the OP for is putting up with an untenable situation. He wasn't being honest with himself or his wife or he wouldn't be so resentful today. He should have told her that sex was a priority and then acted accordingly to fix it or move on.


Lionel didn't really have much of a choice, did he. If I give you the choice of getting kicked in the balls or slapped in the face, and you choose the slap, should you be happy about it? You might resent the fact that I didn't give you any good choices. But, you did choose the lesser of two evils.

In Lionel's case, he had the choice of a sexless marriage with a good roommate and his child, or having sex with other women in a less comfortable lifestyle while paying his wife alimony and seeing his kid on alternate weekends. So the fact that he chose a sexless marriage doesn't mean he should be thrilled about his situation.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> If I give you the choice of getting kicked in the balls or slapped in the face, and you choose the slap, should you be happy about it? You might resent the fact that I didn't give you any good choices. But, you did choose the lesser of two evils.
> 
> In Lionel's case, he had the choice of a sexless marriage with a good roommate and his child, or having sex with other women in a less comfortable lifestyle while paying his wife alimony and seeing his kid on alternate weekends. So the fact that he chose a sexless marriage doesn't mean he should be thrilled about his situation.


Very well said.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

FormerNiceGuy said:


> LH -
> 
> I am struggling to see how this is all your wife's fault. Your wife's behavior did not "make you go into a deep dark depression". She did not and does not have that kind of power over you or any other adult.
> 
> ...


I have never said it was all my wife's fault. What I do blame her for was for not talking to me about whatever the fault was.

You are correct, I am not a victim. I had already decided to keep the current situation before she started to reopen old wounds. 

I don't blame her for my depression. It wasn't her fault nor was it inevitable, it just happened. My depression was the result of grieving over the loss of my marriage. What I blame her for was her complete lack of concern when there was obviously something wrong with me to the point that others were noticing.


I seem to keep coming up against this. Just to be very clear, I have not spent the last few years sitting around just waiting for her to show interest. As far as I have been concerned she might as well be my sister. I no longer care what her sexual thoughts are. I am not desperate to have sex at any cost. 

And yes I have already told her that I was just waiting to leave the marriage. If she leaves, she leaves. I have already been through this and I have said goodbye to my relationship. My only question now is whether or not to go back.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> What is selfish is that she changed the rules of the game after Lionel was committed. If Lionel's wife had told him, up front, that a marriage between them would be sexless, then I would absolve her of any blame for having a sexless marriage.
> 
> 
> Lionel didn't really have much of a choice, did he. If I give you the choice of getting kicked in the balls or slapped in the face, and you choose the slap, should you be happy about it? You might resent the fact that I didn't give you any good choices. But, you did choose the lesser of two evils.
> ...


I agree with you that Lionel wasn't given any good choices. He has every right to feel resentful and hurt. What I don't understand is why is his wife surprised at how hurt he is? He says he communicated it to her on many occasions. I don't doubt this but why didn't she assimilate the information? Was it not stated clearly enough? Was it because he didn't threaten divorce or separation? I just don't understand where the disassociation is coming from.


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

Disclaimer: I do not think what your wife did/did not do all these years was right. 

But I just wanted to pitch in some opinions. 

(1)Buried in 4000 posts here you mentioned your wife thought you were always "self-sufficient", or something alone the line. 

I do not live in your house so I do not know, and it's hard to imagine how she did not notice you were depressed. But I can grasp a little bit how she might have "overestimated" your ability to handle emotional/sexual needs. I often overestimate my H. He seems a lot more stable (less emotionally volatile) than me. He seems to be able to concentrate his energy on other things (work, etc). 

(2)I mentioned in my past thread my wake-up call was when my H asked for "service" (a masseuse) in my presence. The thought that my H could be intimate with another woman was sooooo powerful. Although I never turned my H down during many years, I was not passionate. The wake-up call literally reminded me how I cared about him, like we are back to the time we met in college. Anyways, shall not talk about me here, but the fact your wife saw other females in your office could have awaken her female instincts. This is not just competitiveness (at least I don't feel that way). 

Finally...I am glad you said you did already tell your wife you were ready to leave. If I were your wife, I would definitely want to know my H is ready to walk out on me, kid in high school or not. Just waiting to do it on your part is not fair, no matter how badly she has treated you. Even your kid (supposedly you are waiting for the kid's sake) would not appreciate it.


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## isla~mama (Feb 1, 2012)

jennifer1986 said:


> (2)I mentioned in my past thread my wake-up call was when my H asked for "service" (a masseuse) in my presence. The thought that my H could be intimate with another woman was sooooo powerful.


True-- seeing/ imagining your spouse in a real/ perceived sexual context with another can be VERY erotically charged. This is probably why hysterical bonding is so common. I've read stories about how amazing sex can be post d-day, and it is probably in part due to the sexual charge of the "other."

That being said, I can't even imagine my husband being with someone else because he has de-sexualized himself, in my eyes, to such an extreme.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> I agree with you that Lionel wasn't given any good choices. He has every right to feel resentful and hurt. What I don't understand is why is his wife surprised at how hurt he is? He says he communicated it to her on many occasions. I don't doubt this but why didn't she assimilate the information? Was it not stated clearly enough? Was it because he didn't threaten divorce or separation? I just don't understand where the disassociation is coming from.


You say about not having good choices. I reckon the choices here are she is to self-centred or stupid to understand, or understands but is to heartless to care.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

The Chimp said:


> You say about not having good choices. I reckon the choices here are she is to self-centred or stupid to understand, or understands but is to heartless to care.


Well yes, that is probably true but why is she surprised how it hurt him unless she really didn't understand the gravity of her behavior. That's what I can't understand. If you slap someone in the face you should realize that they are going to be hurt by your actions.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> Well yes, that is probably true but why is she surprised how it hurt him unless she really didn't understand the gravity of her behavior. That's what I can't understand. If you slap someone in the face you should realize that they are going to be hurt by your actions.


Hm. You get those people who give someone a slap and when the other person says it hurt, say something like "Well I didn't mean to, I didn't know you were so weedy and sensitive" or something nice like that.

And you get those who genuinely don't get how their actions hurt someone. Like the person who grew up with material things being two a penny and meaning nothing, who throws away something that means the world to their partner because "it's just some old thing you can replace".

If sex was never important to her, why would she realise withdrawing it from someone else would hurt them? She and people like her base their understanding on their own experiences alone and in isolation. It doesn't hurt them, therefore it won't hurt anyone else. And often, if you tell this sort of person that it hurt you, they only part believe, or think that it implies some sort of character flaw on the part of the hurt partner.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Sawney Beane said:


> Hm. You get those people who give someone a slap and when the other person says it hurt, say something like "Well I didn't mean to, I didn't know you were so weedy and sensitive" or something nice like that.
> 
> And you get those who genuinely don't get how their actions hurt someone. Like the person who grew up with material things being two a penny and meaning nothing, who throws away something that means the world to their partner because "it's just some old thing you can replace".
> 
> If sex was never important to her, why would she realise withdrawing it from someone else would hurt them? She and people like her base their understanding on their own experiences alone and in isolation. It doesn't hurt them, therefore it won't hurt anyone else. And often, if you tell this sort of person that it hurt you, they only part believe, or think that it implies some sort of character flaw on the part of the hurt partner.


I agree. This would describe her in other ways. She really does seem challenged by trying to understand someone's else perspective. Even among her friends, my wife is extremely sensitive about what seems like superficially harsh words aimed in her direction, but she is often obvious to how badly she has hurt someone. And then when confronted with it she writes it off as the other person being too sensitive.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Lionelhutz said:


> I agree. This would describe her in other ways. She really does seem challenged by trying to understand someone's else perspective. Even among her friends, my wife is extremely sensitive about what seems like superficially harsh words aimed in her direction, but she is often obvious to how badly she has hurt someone. And then when confronted with it she writes it off as the other person being too sensitive.


What you are describing is a lack of empathy and I'm not sure that is something that can be taught without harsh reality lessons. I've always believed that type of person has either autistic or a sociopathic tendencies.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Lionelhutz said:


> I agree. This would describe her in other ways. She really does seem challenged by trying to understand someone's else perspective. Even among her friends, my wife is extremely sensitive about what seems like superficially harsh words aimed in her direction, but she is often obvious to how badly she has hurt someone. And then when confronted with it she writes it off as the other person being too sensitive.


Oh, one of _those_. The sort of people who believe everyone should treat them like their sh!t doesn't stink and if anyone says anything they don't like, that person is mean, cruel, heartless and doesn't understand how special they are.

And on the other hand they get a free run to be as unpleasant as they like to everyone else, who is either stupid and doesn't see how funny and clever they are, or else needs to get a thicker skin.

They come in male and female models and both sorts are equally bloody irritating.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Lionelhutz said:


> I agree. This would describe her in other ways. She really does seem challenged by trying to understand someone's else perspective. Even among her friends, my wife is extremely sensitive about what seems like superficially harsh words aimed in her direction, but she is often *obvious *to how badly she has hurt someone. And then when confronted with it she writes it off as the other person being too sensitive.



spelling correct 

obvious => oblivious

took me sometime to make sense

:smthumbup:


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

What a truly sad situation to be in. I wonder what lessons your child is learning from it.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> What you are describing is a lack of empathy and I'm not sure that is something that can be taught without harsh reality lessons. I've always believed that type of person has either autistic or a sociopathic tendencies.


I've spent years trying to understand this, although my wife really tries to work on it. Its not as blatant as some people think it would be when one partner doesn't relate outward with the same empathy that they expect. I don't know it it applies to the OP, but my wife sees me as a strong, independent person, and it just doesn't really occur to her that I would appreciate a little empathy if the situation I'm facing is a gray area, like dealing with a minor chronic health issue. Its more about changing the relationship dynamic than her, because she is naturally empathetic with other people. For what its worth, her psychiatrist said that this is common with her bipolar depression. 

Another common theme with lower empathy relationship dynamics is that the person will more likely 'assume' what the other is thinking instead of trying to ask with an open mind. When the OP was depressed, she might've just assumed that he was thinking that he didn't want her to talk to him, or try to be close. Resentment can also be partnered with this, so that the low empathy parter begins to assume the worst motivations in normal, day to day situations. My wife is learning for the first time to ask questions regularly. After 25 years, she recently admitted that she barely knows me, yet we've always had a strong sexual relationship.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Halien said:


> I've spent years trying to understand this, although my wife really tries to work on it. Its not as blatant as some people think it would be when one partner doesn't relate outward with the same empathy that they expect. I don't know it it applies to the OP, but my wife sees me as a strong, independent person, and it just doesn't really occur to her that I would appreciate a little empathy if the situation I'm facing is a gray area, like dealing with a minor chronic health issue. Its more about changing the relationship dynamic than her, because she is naturally empathetic with other people. For what its worth, her psychiatrist said that this is common with her bipolar depression.
> 
> Another common theme with lower empathy relationship dynamics is that the person will more likely 'assume' what the other is thinking instead of trying to ask with an open mind. When the OP was depressed, she might've just assumed that he was thinking that he didn't want her to talk to him, or try to be close. Resentment can also be partnered with this, so that the low empathy parter begins to assume the worst motivations in normal, day to day situations. My wife is learning for the first time to ask questions regularly. After 25 years, she recently admitted that she barely knows me, yet we've always had a strong sexual relationship.


So what you are saying is that it is a communication gap? Then how would someone approach that problem before it gets to the point of resentment and apathy that Lionel is (justifiably) at?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Beowulf,
I believe this is typically more than a communication gap. For instance a "selfish" person typically understands when their needs and yours collide. They even understand when you tell them "THIS" is really important to me. 

However when "THIS" collides with anything they want, they quietly move your want/need below theirs and do what they want for themselves. 

These are often the partners (men and women) who freak out and promise to "change" when their spouse announces the end of the marriage. The "selfish" spouse has known all along what their partner wanted. The "taker" simply believed they could ignore those wants/needs open ended because they had gotten away with doing so for so long. 






Beowulf said:


> So what you are saying is that it is a communication gap? Then how would someone approach that problem before it gets to the point of resentment and apathy that Lionel is (justifiably) at?


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Beowulf,
> I believe this is typically more than a communication gap. For instance a "selfish" person typically understands when their needs and yours collide. They even understand when you tell them "THIS" is really important to me.
> 
> However when "THIS" collides with anything they want, they quietly move your want/need below theirs and do what they want for themselves.
> ...


So then this is a serious character flaw and anything less than heavy IC should not be acceptable. Are there any other ways that the put upon spouse can demand actual behavioral correction? Or is the threat of divorce or a separation the only way these selfish people can be shown how seriously damaging their behavior truly is? Would implementing a plan like the 180 advocated on TAM or the MAP plan advocated on MMSL work on this type of person?


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

If you can find a person who is NOT selfish, then you would be the richest and most blessed person alive. 

We ALL are selfish. It is simply within our human nature to be so.

The key is whether a person has allowed that selfishness to be tempered by other parts of their character - by honesty, by integrity, by values/morals, and most especially in a marriage by their showing through not just words, but their actions, that they are commited - that they are dedicated.

Obviously, ymmv as to whether 180's or MAPs or such work because it still comes down to the fact that no one can change another. Change will only occur in another if they wish it to, and it would depend on many factors as to whether it would be long-term, or a short-term.

That, however, is no reason for a person to not improve themselves. We, each of us, have areas within ourselves that we neglect or ignore that we should instead try and nourish and cherish. We, each of us, have areas within ourselves that we feed and grow that we should instead try and starve and prune. It is always worthwhile to work on improving ourselves, whether our spouses will agree to join us or not.

@Lionel - I hope that you will take the time to think about and take a hard look at some of those things within yourself that may need to be either nourished or pruned and work to address those. In doing so, you may begin to see a very clear picture about how to move forward in regards to your wife.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Beowulf,
> I believe this is typically more than a communication gap. For instance a "selfish" person typically understands when their needs and yours collide. They even understand when you tell them "THIS" is really important to me.
> 
> However_* when "THIS" collides with anything they want, they quietly move your want/need below theirs and do what they want for themselves. *_
> ...


Here we have it in a nutshell! MEM has managed to distill the problem down into about twelve lines, with the heart of the matter in THREE LINES of text. 

MEM, congrats on outlining the problem so succinctly. A lot of people will spent a lot of pages and ink to get to what you have written so clearly above.

All we need now is a foolproof twelve line solution...

Any takers?


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> Here we have it in a nutshell! MEM has managed to distill the problem down into about twelve lines, with the heart of the matter in THREE LINES of text.
> 
> MEM, congrats on outlining the problem so succinctly. A lot of people will spent a lot of pages and ink to get to what you have written so clearly above.
> 
> ...


I'll give it a shot.

F
I
L
E

F
O
R

D
I
V
O
R
C
E

Ok maybe that was 14 lines but if someone just won't give a damn about you I'm not sure why you should be with them.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> So then this is a serious character flaw and anything less than heavy IC should not be acceptable. Are there any other ways that the put upon spouse can demand actual behavioral correction? Or is the threat of divorce or a separation the only way these selfish people can be shown how seriously damaging their behavior truly is? Would implementing a plan like the 180 advocated on TAM or the MAP plan advocated on MMSL work on this type of person?


The trouble is you can threaten, demand, show, 180 and state what's unacceptable until hell freezes. Unless and until they WANT to change, that's nothing but wind and p!ss. And in some people I suspect that they couldn't change even then. It's through some of them like a stick of rock. They either cannot change, or cannot want everything else enough to put themselves through totally rebuilding their psyche from the ground up to eliminate this.

As for MMSL and the MAP, it'd be like trying to stop a tank with a peashooter.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> I'll give it a shot.
> 
> F
> I
> ...


With all due respect, I thought you wanted a way to change them and alter this behaviour. A strategy beyond just "run like f*ck in the opposite direction".

Not that there's anything wrong with that as a plan in some cases


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> That, however, is no reason for a person to not improve themselves. We, each of us, have areas within ourselves that we neglect or ignore that we should instead try and nourish and cherish. We, each of us, have areas within ourselves that we feed and grow that we should instead try and starve and prune. It is always worthwhile to work on improving ourselves, whether our spouses will agree to join us or not.


In the case of people who exhibit that level of selfishness, there's a general belief running in parallel that they are perfect and do not NEED to improve. And that if everyone else were to put in a little bit more effort, then they too would see how perfect the selfish person is and just do what they want


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> In the case of people who exhibit that level of selfishness, there's a general belief running in parallel that they are perfect and do not NEED to improve. And that if everyone else were to put in a little bit more effort, then they too would see how perfect the selfish person is and just do what they want


True - although I was really talking about the person who has to live with the uber-selfish one, assuming that they were a counter-weight and of some kind of sound mind and character (especially if they are posting here).  

If they are both uber-selfish, then they are two peas in a pod and likely deserve each other. You see THAT quite often.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sawney,
I am laughing - full body laughing here. No one has "edited" me more relentlessly than you (and I am grateful for it though I have had moments during which I wanted to strangle you for being so intent helping me refine my message). 

So the message below was very welcome. 

Hundreds of books have been written on this subject - maybe thousands. Defining the problem is not that difficult. Solving it is so very much harder. 

The "interesting" thing about the solution is that the core of it is all about how your partner "feels", and yet the only way to gauge the result is to observe what they objectively "do". 

The saddest posts I read here are from guys whose wives avoid spending time with them. And the guy is on here posting about all the things he is doing to encourage, persuade or pressure her to spend more time together. And typically sex is lacking "as well" but, but, but: If your W does not actively enjoy your company outside the bedroom how can you possibly have a good sex life? 

And when I read their posts I wonder if she really is that hard to please or if he has lost sight of what makes for a good companion? 

I think about something my mother told me growing up. Marriage she said "is work". And I agree with that. I also believe that we often make it so much harder than it needs to be. I truly have no idea which of "us", me or Mrs. MEM created our "First Contact" routine. But our "First Contact" at the end of the day (when I am not travelling for work), is always the same. 
- Big warm smile for each other
- Friendly, happy toned and drawn out "Hiiiiii" 
- Walk towards each other and long full body hug

It sets a great tone for the rest of the evening. And to me it means "Everything that happened today, the good/bad/ugly is noise level stuff that comes and goes. You are way more important than any of that which is why you get my 100 percent undivided and happy attention soon as I walk in the door". 

Oooops. Now I remember. This is her construct not mine. And it came from a bad pattern I had. I would walk in the door most nights in the middle of a cell phone conversation that would persist for 5-10-15 minutes. And she nicely asked me not to do that. She just said it was important to her. And I "got that". And we went from "that", me walking in the door totally focused on someone/something else to where we are now courtesy of that one conversation. BTW, I don't feel controlled. Or smothered. Or whipped. She asked me for something that I realized I should have already been doing. 




Sawney Beane said:


> Here we have it in a nutshell! MEM has managed to distill the problem down into about twelve lines, with the heart of the matter in THREE LINES of text.
> 
> MEM, congrats on outlining the problem so succinctly. A lot of people will spent a lot of pages and ink to get to what you have written so clearly above.
> 
> ...


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> With all due respect, I thought you wanted a way to change them and alter this behaviour. A strategy beyond just "run like f*ck in the opposite direction".
> 
> Not that there's anything wrong with that as a plan in some cases


Well, if fulfilling their needs doesn't work. Ernest communication doesn't work. Threats of separation or divorce don't work. I'm not sure what's left. If the person is that selfish then it may be time to admit you made a poor choice of marriage partner and move on. You can't control others you can only control yourself just like you can't make chicken salad out of chicken feathers.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> I truly have no idea which of "us", me or Mrs. MEM created our "First Contact" routine. But our "First Contact" at the end of the day (when I am not travelling for work), is always the same.
> - Big warm smile for each other
> - Friendly, happy toned and drawn out "Hiiiiii"
> - Walk towards each other and long full body hug
> ...


Funny you should say that. My wife and I do exactly the same thing and have for years. In fact, now since the kids are grown she meets me at the door when I get home. I barely make it through the door before we "connect." Maybe its a symptom of a good relationship.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

B,
I think that is right. Before filing the one last thing I would do is create a "high contrast" environment. What I mean by that is I would make an effort to demonstrate (in front of my partner as much as possible) that my interactions with others are positive and constructive and upbeat. While simultaneously being "low affect/low expectations" with your spouse. This paints the best picture of "how you could be" with them, if they wanted. If you aren't able to have consistently good/positive interactions with the other people in your life, than maybe the issue isn't your spouse. 




Beowulf said:


> Well, if fulfilling their needs doesn't work. Ernest communication doesn't work. Threats of separation or divorce don't work. I'm not sure what's left. If the person is that selfish then it may be time to admit you made a poor choice of marriage partner and move on. You can't control others you can only control yourself just like you can't make chicken salad out of chicken feathers.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> B,
> I think that is right. Before filing the one last thing I would do is create a "high contrast" environment. What I mean by that is I would make an effort to demonstrate (in front of my partner as much as possible) that my interactions with others are positive and constructive and upbeat. While simultaneously being "low affect/low expectations" with your spouse. This paints the best picture of "how you could be" with them, if they wanted. If you aren't able to have consistently good/positive interactions with the other people in your life, than maybe the issue isn't your spouse.


Isn't that in part what MMSL advocates? You disengage from your spouse while remaining upbeat with everyone else? It's been a while since I read the book.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Sawney,
> I am laughing - full body laughing here. No one has "edited" me more relentlessly than you (and I am grateful for it though I have had moments during which I wanted to strangle you for being so intent helping me refine my message).
> 
> So the message below was very welcome.


Thank you for saying so. I try to help, and if I seem hard, it's because I believe the best steel is formed as a result of it going through the fire, not despite going through the fire.


As for trying to strangle me, it's been tried many times before. The success rate is parlously low



> Hundreds of books have been written on this subject - maybe thousands. Defining the problem is not that difficult. Solving it is so very much harder.


Without wishing to make this entirely philosophical, yes and no. If I say "An effective vaccine against Falciparum parasites would effectively control malaria", it seems facile. A hundred or a hundred and fifty years ago, that understanding would be a huge leap. Depending on where someone is on their own journey, your framing of the problem may be precisely what they need to understand what is happening to them.

You're right of course that it doesn't provide an answer, but unless and until you have the right question, you haven't a hope. It doesn't make producing that vaccine easier, but you know what you have to do...



> The "interesting" thing about the solution is that the core of it is all about how your partner "feels", and yet the only way to gauge the result is to observe what they objectively "do".


In the case of someone who is as majorly selfish as that, the gap between what they feel and what they do might be quite small. What they do is driven to a very large degree by making themselves feels good, no matter what the impact.



> The saddest posts I read here are from guys whose wives avoid spending time with them. And the guy is on here posting about all the things he is doing to encourage, persuade or pressure her to spend more time together. And typically sex is lacking "as well" but, but, but: If your W does not actively enjoy your company outside the bedroom how can you possibly have a good sex life?
> 
> And when I read their posts I wonder if she really is that hard to please or if he has lost sight of what makes for a good companion?


You absolutely right, but I thing we're onto something different here. This is separate to the selfishness issue. Does it need its own thread?



> I think about something my mother told me growing up. Marriage she said "is work". And I agree with that.


As do I. But you'd be surprised at the number of people who would look at you like you have two heads if you tell them.



> I also believe that we often make it so much harder than it needs to be.


Yes, but marriage doesn't get the benefit of procedural reviews or peer review like most stuff that you "work" at otherwise does! Most people are glad that it works at all and are loathe to change anything in case it unravels totally!



> I truly have no idea which of "us", me or Mrs. MEM created our "First Contact" routine. But our "First Contact" at the end of the day (when I am not travelling for work), is always the same.
> - Big warm smile for each other
> - Friendly, happy toned and drawn out "Hiiiiii"
> - Walk towards each other and long full body hug
> ...


The ability to detach personal and business lives is great, but not always easy. In the same way that it isn't always possible to expect someone to leave what's going wrong at home outside the office, the opposite is also true. But I agree, what you describe should be the norm. If your work life is so bad that you routinely cannot detach as you describe, then it's part of the problem, not part of the solution.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SB,
Selfish folks who are competent and rational can often be constructively engaged. In fact, if I am a selfish LD spouse married to a totally committed HD spouse than the dynamic that most naturally evolves in the marriage looks like this:

It is based on a financial analogy and has a lot of merit. It works in reverse as well. The basic requester/refuser model typically works like this. 

The "requester" keeps getting rejected and they steadily "bid up" the value of sex in the marriage. The "bid up" dynamics work like this. The requester shows they are willing to tolerate a LOT of rejection, selfish behavior AND are willing to jump through giant hoops to get a very small amount of sex. This signals to the refuser that sex is INCREDIBLY valuable to the requester. Initially the refuser exploits this because it makes their life easier/better, their partner is doing (overall) way more than their "fair share" of the total marital workload because they are in an obsessive/compulsive state pursuing the hormonal ****tail "drug" produced by sex. 

Unfortunately the neither the requester nor refuser realize that the longer term result is:
- Requestor loses self respect/self esteem and behaves somewhat erratically do to bouts of anger/sadness. 
- Refuser loses respect for the requestor not "standing up for themselves". No one wants to sleep with a doormat. What initially was a "rational strategy" for the refuser to take control of the marriage has now become a necessity because they are actively "turned off" by the spouse they no longer respect. 


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The reverse of this situation works as follows. 
The "buy side" dynamic looks like this:
The requestor gets turned down one time too many. And they are told they have to chase the ever moving/growing list of impossible tasks to create the *mythical perfect environment for their spouse*. And very quickly they explain to the refuser that basic substitution economics will be employed. Personally I far prefer marital sex to any other kind. That said, given a choice between "abusively priced" marital sex, and market priced (in terms of time, effort and money) non-marital sex, I made it clear I would choose the non-marital variety. 

The "sell side" dynamic looks like this:
Holy $hit, there is no "demand" for my service. My one and only customer has outsourced this activity. And that means my "income" stream for this activity has suddenly gone to - oh $hit, it has gone to zero. Now in a healthy marriage (which I like to think I have) that "income stream" is primarily "soft". It consists of a lot of acts of service, kindness, compliments (love in all its myriad beauty), generosity and STABILITY. When it looks like that stream is about to crash, the seller rapidly chooses to either terminate the entire relationship OR much more likely to greatly reduce the price of the service. 

Basically this all comes down to one simple but critical question. Are you giving the seller the status of a true "unbreakable" monopoly. If you are, they may well set the price without any concern for the "buyers" happiness






Sawney Beane said:


> Thank you for saying so. I try to help, and if I seem hard, it's because I believe the best steel is formed as a result of it going through the fire, not despite going through the fire.
> 
> 
> As for trying to strangle me, it's been tried many times before. The success rate is parlously low
> ...


[/QUOTE]


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> SB,
> 
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> ...


The only way to break the monopoly in this case is to threaten to commit adultery. I contend this is most unlikely to cause the "hard monopolist" to soften their business practices. If they are playing hard already, the likely response isn't "Oh dear I'd better be nicer or he'll sleep with someone else", it's most likely to be "All right, mush, you do that, and I'll rape your arse in a divorce court and you'll see the kids every third weekend".

At that point, you either bale and take the risk it pans out like she says (which is a likely outcome), or you go back and find that the business model now owes more to the Russian mafia than monopoly.

On another thread there was a posting about there being no good choices. If I say to you, "You are either going to get kicked repeatedly in the balls, or you're going to get your face repeatedly stamped on", which do you choose?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> SB,
> Selfish folks who are competent and rational can often be constructively engaged. In fact, if I am a selfish LD spouse married to a totally committed HD spouse than the dynamic that most naturally evolves in the marriage looks like this:


MEM, you appear to believe that everyone else is willing to be as smart, fair and rational as you and your wife are. This is a feature, not a bug, and it says nothing but good about you.

However, the most cursory reading of posts here shows this is a flawed assumption. If everyone was like you and your wife there would be about three people posting here a week. Lots of people don't appear to want to have a fair, even, responsible marriage. They want one where they can do all the take and give nothing. They are not going to want to change into you and your wife. Why would they? It would mean they have to actually put some graft in as opposed to letting their partner do all the work and pouting when the other person doesn't.


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