# Do cheaters keep cheating?



## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

I have other issues in my marriage based around an EA that never as far as I am aware never went PA, but I am reading so many threads of cheaters and those that have been cheated on that I am finding myself asking one fundamental question.....

Once you cheat will you always be a cheater?

I suppose if you get caught and have the emotions to deal with then it could stop it right?

But is it possible that you could "just grow up" so to speak and realize your mistakes and actually work to put the mistakes right?

Looking for both sides to this so I can understand and comprehend the the thoughts and feelings of those around me in this fora.


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

Some yes some no. Its a roll of the dice. 

I think what gives you a glimpse of the future is their reaction. Do they argue or own up to it? Do the rug sweep or expose? Are they willing to do anything in their power? do they try to bargain or give n?

I think those are the questions. As well as how many d days there were and how long the cheating lasted
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

There is a general consensus that this is indeed the case - 'once a cheater always a cheater' 

Myself I don't believe it is quit so cut and dried.

I would say in most instances it is true but not in every case 

I reckon from what I read on here and in my own experience its about 75 / 80 % 

Of course unfortunately the exceptions will get tarnished with the same brush but tbh it's all part of the territory should you be a cheat


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

I agree with the above. 

The only thing that would change a cheater is severe consequences of that which they value. 

Though if relationships are of no value then it will be fairly obvious that the consequences won't be of value either. And the remorse will be sadly lacking. I guess this will fall into the camp of serial offenders who don't feel particularly deeply for anyone or anything, or the person having the exit affair.

I think you can tell when the remorse is real. Of course, there will slight variations depending on the personalities involved, but I think the effect will be noticeable.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

awake1 said:


> Some yes some no. Its a roll of the dice.
> 
> I think what gives you a glimpse of the future is their reaction. Do they argue or own up to it? Do the rug sweep or expose? Are they willing to do anything in their power? do they try to bargain or give n?
> 
> ...


Fair point, owning one's adultery is a massive part in being able to move on imo.

If you can't and most of them don't then you're kinda digging a grave for the next 'victim' and yourself.

I'll be fascinated by how my stbxw deals with this aspect of her life with the next 'one'. Being a serial cheat over many years, how does she own up to it all showing some unnatural honesty knowing you're probably making your next 'one' bolt for the hills

Admit to one or nothing knowing if he finds out like he will then as likely he'll bolt for the hills because you lied to him !!

Think most choose the dishonest 2nd option thinking if they've stayed together over a period of time they feel they can talk them round 

I'll admit that quandary for her makes me chuckle


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## LoriC (Feb 18, 2013)

Impossible question to answer.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

The majority of people are pretty set in their ways and don't change. Keep that in mind in any interaction you have with anybody.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> The majority of people are pretty set in their ways and don't change. Keep that in mind in any interaction you have with anybody.


It is difficult isn't it. You find you have feelings for someone, strong ones, even love and then they get all honest and tell you they have cheated in the past.

After what I have been through with two serial cheats I can't in all honesty say I'd stay.

Could be wrong though as love is a ridiculously strong feeling and the fog descends when the heart is demanding what it want's


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

My H had an EA and four years later had an EA > PA with the
same person.

The first time around there was no genuine remorse and no consequences.

After the second, he fell apart, came clean with details concerning both times ,begged for forgiveness, started IC weekly, did not blame me on any level and realized that he was was a horrible weak pathethic person.

I think that was the straw that broke the camel's back, when our son told him that he "lost respect" for him.

Each couple have their own stories. Only you know yours.

Good Luck. Be Strong.


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

so basically if they did it once it is more than probable they will do it again and they will probably use the last times trip ups to cover their tracks better the next time.

But are there any folk here to who turned a leaf and what was your turning point? 

Your own personal "Ground Zero" so to speak?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Something I thought might help: Chemistry - Love, Explained


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

No.
Poeple can change if they learn the tools to prevent bad behaviors from coming back....but first you have to face the fact that what you have is bad for you and you no longer want to be that kind of person any more.

Yes.
Some poeple are broken and often do the same thing expecting different results. Justifing the same out come as someone elses fault instead of looking at them selve for the continue pain in their own life.

And yes cheaters and seriel cheates are in great pain hence the reason to find that "quick" happiness instead of dealing with the commitment they made. I believe, that cheater just don't see the greater rewards in a commited relationship, but take the quick high over the hard work of commiting.

*********disclaimer**********

This is just my personal view and make no attempt to generalize all cheaters.


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Something I thought might help: Chemistry - Love, Explained


So that helps me understand a little bit more about the feelings of people who are falling in love but not so much about people who are cheating or are beating it away with a broom and actually becoming faithful spouses!

I can honestly say that I have only ever loved one woman and I will have to live with the fact that if my marriage fails then I will have to be content with trying to love someone else.

I saw my first marriage fail due to my lack of commitment I suppose, but I never made her become a cheater, she did that herself, although I must be doing something wrong as this is the second wife who has decided that there are bigger fish out there worth catching.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I tend to agree with "the guy". The thing is , you have to factor in the reward from brain chemicals. When we feel that reward, it is addicting. It makes it more of a challenge when the body/brain is rewarded for these behaviors. Learning new habits is very important. Finding rewarding chemical response in the brain and reinforcing those so reward patterns change is the difficult part. Those rewarding chemicals are like heroine or nicotine. They are tough to get past. It's difficult to find that reward differently. It all starts with the desire to change. Then it takes building new memories which replace the old ones and are at least as chemically satisfying. That's tough to do and a reason I believe many R's fail or are never attempted. There is no doubt. It is a very tough row to hoe. It is possible, though less than likely.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

wranglerman said:


> So that helps me understand a little bit more about the feelings of people who are falling in love but not so much about people who are cheating or are beating it away with a broom and actually becoming faithful spouses!
> 
> I can honestly say that I have only ever loved one woman and I will have to live with the fact that if my marriage fails then I will have to be content with trying to love someone else.
> 
> I saw my first marriage fail due to my lack of commitment I suppose, but I never made her become a cheater, she did that herself, although I must be doing something wrong as this is the second wife who has decided that there are bigger fish out there worth catching.


Many times we as men are not doing the things that attracted our spouses when we were dating and trying to "win" their affection and love. I do believe that MMSLP can be a great advantage to men. I think some of it must be taken with a little grain of salt. I don't believe you can be totally "the MAN". I think we need sprinkled with some empathy, vulnerability and humility as well. We just need to never be a doormat to be walked on constantly. That's the difficult part, knowing when and how much of each of these to apply.

Edit: Take a look at my last post and you will see how these chemical bonds tend to factor into the once a cheater, always a cheater mentality. The brain rewards us for actions. We feel good sometimes even when we are doing things which go against our marriage. Maybe everyone thinks we are wrong, but "it feels so right". Those are the reward chemicals produced. They cause us to form patterns of thinking and behavior that achieve that feeling again and again.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

I don't agree with "Once a cheater - always a cheater".

Every person is different. Every situation is different. Every marriage/relationship is different.

Will a proven cheater do it again - maybe, maybe not.

For me, if I caught my wife in a PA, I would not stick around to long enough to see if she would do it again.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Short answer: I am guilty of EAs. Yes, two. First one, I didn't deal with the root causes... mainly, what it was about myself that had me seeking attention elsewhere. Instead, it was just "ok, I promise, I'll never do it again.", without any consequences, etc. 

Second time, I came to hate myself and my behavior. He forgave me (as I did him, with his EA). But this time, I came clean to even my own family... no prompting from him. I told them that I had been leaning, emotionally, on another man... and I needed their help to keep me from going back to that behavior. They were more than willing to help... and i haven't returned to that behavior since. 

So, yes, cheaters can turn around. Sometimes it is after one, sometimes more. But the key for ANY of it is they have to WANT to, and need things/people in place that will help facilitate the change.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

wranglerman said:


> I have other issues in my marriage based around an EA that never as far as I am aware never went PA, but I am reading so many threads of cheaters and those that have been cheated on that I am finding myself asking one fundamental question..... Once you cheat will you always be a cheater?


Although there some few and far between exceptions, the answer is “yes”. Betraying is an addiction with classic addictive behaviors. See this article: 12 Warning Signs That It’s Emotional Infidelity – And Not ‘Just Friendship’ | Neuroscience and Relationships

People either are or are not given to such addictive traits. Like an alcoholic, if that is your “vice” it always will be. Not necessarily that betrayers fully do so again, but the addiction and propensity to betray is always there. It's always in their thought process if nothing else as a way to solve their problems or unhappiness. 



wranglerman said:


> I suppose if you get caught and have the emotions to deal with then it could stop it right?


Just the opposite, really. 100% of betrayers say the second time is far easier than the first and the third so easy you lose all guilt and shame and just justify it. That's why they never betray just once and then confess. I know several people who betrayed their spouse and all say the first time they had betrayal sex it was wild and exciting.... but getting the courage to take their clothes off and betray people who have faith in them to be right and trust them was so very hard. But the next time they hooked up with their lovers it was second nature... just whip those clothes off and get to it... Emotional betrayals are the same. Maybe even more addictive even.



wranglerman said:


> But is it possible that you could "just grow up" so to speak and realize your mistakes and actually work to put the mistakes right?


Maybe 1 in 1,000. Maybe. The barriers to that if a person has the ability to do so, then they also easily had the capability to say 'no' to betraying in the first place but simply chose not to. Why? It all comes back to addictive behaviors and how they view working on issues within a marriage as well as how they see themselves. If they aren't back into a trusting relationship, they cannot act out their addictions. Therefore, the need to get back into a trusting relationship is paramount so they can feed their addictions- it's a viscous circle. But like an alcoholic, the want and desire for that sip or that drink is always there and always easier to justify....


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

wranglerman said:


> so basically if they did it once it is more than probable they will do it again and they will probably use the last times trip ups to cover their tracks better the next time.
> 
> But are there any folk here to who turned a leaf and what was your turning point?
> 
> Your own personal "Ground Zero" so to speak?


My wife was the cheater, I on the other hand was the abuser...we both how ever turned a leaf.

Once a wife beater always a wife beater...well not in my case. My ground zero was beating the crap out of the ice cream man for cutting me off..That was when I realized it was me that had an anger problem.

As for my wife it took her much longer to realize she had a problem. Her ground zero was when I had enough and finaly face her adultour life style and no longer was going to sit blindly by while she continued.

One of her personal stories that was a turning point for her with regards to no longer picking up strange was when she got into a car and the entire interior was coverd in clear plastic.

Even though she still continued her cheating she got more selective...but at the end of the day if its not her husband then aren't they all just strange guys???

3 years ago we both had had enough and she used my experience with my anger and how I was taught the tools to change and how I applied my earlier actions with couseling and theropy to her own plight in needing to always spread her legs for any Tom, Rick, or Harry.

So far it been over 7 years since I raised my fists and 3 years since my wife has been with any OM's....but then again her longest time straight was 5 so I have a few more years to see if its all working...

Personally I think we are just a little old and a lot wiser to go back to those unhealthy behaviors...but who knows...it was only last Friday that I wanted to pull some kid out of his truck and beat him. So who knows how many time Mrs. the guy gets tempted? I believe that just like in my case I used the tools to calm down.

I think in my old ladies case alot of it has to do with her staying out of those enviorments that were more of a catalist to her adultory, like bars and toxic friends.


I do admit ours is a rare case, more often then not most of these threads at CWI don't end up like mine. Often one reads about the guy that busted his chick before the wedding and marries her anyway only to be here at TAM 3-5 years down the road. Or the guy that busted his chick 5-7 years into the marriage and now he is here 20-25 years into the marriage finding out that his wife has been screwing around for years.

Very sad.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I believe as the betrayed, you must start all over from scratch. You don't know her, basically. She has changed. Some affair partners do end in marriage. They are successful. Why? I think they have left the old behind and started new. They have found the reward they were looking for. 

I think you must become a different person. Is that possible? In some ways, yes, you can alter what you do. You can even alter some of your beliefs. You will be a different person. The thing is, will you want that same spouse once you have changed or will you want someone more suited to the better person you have become?

Will she even be attracted to that new person you have become? Maybe, if she finds and builds new rewarding thoughts and behaviors.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

wranglerman said:


> But are there any folk here to who turned a leaf and what was your turning point?
> 
> Your own personal "Ground Zero" so to speak?


Depends on how you define that. Some betrayers never actually betray again, but I think their propensity to do so is always there. So it's a matter of semantics.

"Did you screw around anymore?"

"No."

"Did you want to and think of it?"

"Yes."

So, are they still a betrayer or not? I would say yes. Why? They still haven't made a full break from the addictive behavior. In other words, they could, and they'd like to, but have the will power to at least not put the glass to their mouth.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Kudos to you "the guy" for taking responsibility for your actions.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

depends---no 2 situations are ever alike---and no one walks in your shoes but you

lots of causes for straying---could be marital problems, could be boredom, could be attention problems, could be FOO related problems---lots of causes and reasons---also could just be looking for excitement---looking for thrills

the next decisive factor---is how the BETRAYED, handles the cheating---if its not handled harshly, with major consequences, for going beyond newly set up boundaries---the cheater may consider cheating again, or going underground in the present A----CUZ THEY KNOW YOU WILL DO LITTLE OR NOTHING, AND THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH THE CHEATING

The last factor---is the cheater themselves---what is inside them, that is causing/allowing this to happen

One other factor---is the type of A, ---is it a ONS, which has its own reasons for occurring---is it an exit A---is it a long term love A.---is it an on-line EA---with the cheater, looking to have companionship for several different reasons

No one can say anything concrete, about any situation---the factors causing, and leading to the A---are what is decisive---then how the aftermath is handled is also decisive.


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I believe as the betrayed, you must start all over from scratch. You don't know her, basically. She has changed. Some affair partners do end in marriage. They are successful. Why? I think they have left the old behind and started new. They have found the reward they were looking for.
> 
> I think you must become a different person. Is that possible? In some ways, yes, you can alter what you do. You can even alter some of your beliefs. You will be a different person. The thing is, will you want that same spouse once you have changed or will you want someone more suited to the better person you have become?
> 
> Will she even be attracted to that new person you have become? Maybe, if she finds and builds new rewarding thoughts and behaviors.


I am changing and I can feel it everyday, I have lost 18lbs in the last 3 months and I am starting to find a new dress sense too as I now find wearing shirts and trousers more appealing to the normal jeans and "T"shirts, ok I will always have jeans, part of the job but I have started to think about how I look and how fresh I smell and I am seeming to take more care over my appearance of late.

I am in my busiest time and I have precious little time for much apart from grabbing a coffee and a quick look on the net before clients come calling or we start our evening shift but I am finding the time to groom and eat healthier than before, don't worry for exercise, get plenty of that in my job!!!

But I am who I am, what was wrong with me being the way I was then that made her want to seek involvement with someone else?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

jnj express said:


> depends---no 2 situations are ever alike---and no one walks in your shoes but you
> 
> This is certainly true.
> 
> ...


Chemical responses can be proven. The justifications are all different.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

wranglerman said:


> I am changing and I can feel it everyday, I have lost 18lbs in the last 3 months and I am starting to find a new dress sense too as I now find wearing shirts and trousers more appealing to the normal jeans and "T"shirts, ok I will always have jeans, part of the job but I have started to think about how I look and how fresh I smell and I am seeming to take more care over my appearance of late.
> 
> I am in my busiest time and I have precious little time for much apart from grabbing a coffee and a quick look on the net before clients come calling or we start our evening shift but I am finding the time to groom and eat healthier than before, don't worry for exercise, get plenty of that in my job!!!
> 
> ...


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

Q: Does having sex make people fall in love?
Dr. Fisher: Having sex can trigger love—probably because after orgasm, there’s a peak in dopamine activity. So watch out if you casually bed down with someone—you might unintentionally fall for them.

Ok I read and re-read that, now as I have thought about it for a few seconds and thought back a little too far, is it possible then(hypothetically???) that if she was imagining she was with the OM when reaching orgasm with me(remember this is an EA in my own case) could it push more attraction on him even though it was my d!ck she was sitting on?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

wranglerman said:


> Q: Does having sex make people fall in love?
> Dr. Fisher: Having sex can trigger love—probably because after orgasm, there’s a peak in dopamine activity. So watch out if you casually bed down with someone—you might unintentionally fall for them.
> 
> Ok I read and re-read that, now as I have thought about it for a few seconds and thought back a little too far, is it possible then(hypothetically???) that if she was imagining she was with the OM when reaching orgasm with me(remember this is an EA in my own case) could it push more attraction on him even though it was my d!ck she was sitting on?


I don't know about that. I'm not a woman. I kind of doubt it. I wondered that myself. I've never found an answer. I don't know how that would help you to improve yourself. You, in the end, can only change you. You have to keep working on you. Hopefully you will find some help to let that part of it go. I know it's horribly difficult.

Women are more about the EA part than the PA. They will not have sex, many times, unless they have some kind of emotional connection, especially when they are in a committed relationship. It does take a lot, but it's still a decision that they justify, just like we as men do. Justification for actions are universal. Just ask, "the guy".

Anyway, you can destroy yourself by thinking too hard about her reasons and not hard enough about yourself. Keep working on you and improving yourself. It's the best course of action.


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

On a purely statistical note, I did some research as a part of my MC. I was of the belief that once a cheater always a cheater. My MC challenged this assumption and told me to look it up. He said it would be hard to R with the belief that my WW was predisposed to cheat again. So I did. I found a couple of Gallup polls that showed that 80% of WS that did NOT get caught cheated again. But of the WS' s that did get caught or confessed, only 20 to 30% cheated again. Of course a large number of marriages involving infidelity end in divorce, so that number is probably a little skewed, but low enough to give those of us trying to R a little hope. My own experience also tend to bare this out. If course this poll was done on a closed course with an experienced driver, so your mileage will vary.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

In my case the last thing my old lady wanted was to fall in love again...look were it got her...a bunch of bruises and snot running out of her nose when she mouthed off.

As far as sex goes..the positive attention was her deal it was just the sex and finding a guy that could even come close to my skill seemed to be a constant quest for her.

From what Mrs. the-guy has told me it was never about attraction, sex was the price she paid for positive attention from men. most sucked but there were a couple that rocked her world. But in her mind why start a relationship a real relationship with a guy that slept with married women.

Another percpective...a very different perspective from the-guy.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

What was the percentage of people caught?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

wranglerman said:


> Once you cheat will you always be a cheater?


Some people yes.

Some people no.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

I may truly be the exception much rather than the rule, but I just cannot bring myself to want to have sex with a woman strictly from a prurient, biological standpoint. What makes me want to share that act with her is getting to know her, her personality, her empathy for others, to get to truly know the size of her heart and to somehow get to sense the spirit in her soul. That's what draws me to her, and if there is a degree of sensed reciprocity, then I am drawn to her like a moth to a flame.

In my mind's eye, I think that that is what largely fosters an EA into a PA, because much like legitimately falling in love, the PA is nothingmore than the concrete physical solidification of the the illicit EA.

Are cheaters batting 1000 in their potential for recidivism? Absolutely not ~ some will just have a one time fling while others will have the marked potential for repeating their mistakes.

But in any event, once the cheater has successfully consumated the rocky road of infidelity and has learned to access their personal comfort and conscience zone in doing so; much like the small child who has successfully learned to ride their very first tricycle, the next episode of cheating will become so much easier for them to perform as their deception will just become nothing more than a self-perceived, unconsciable, sense of "human nature" to them!


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

Do alcoholics keep drinking ? Do smokers keep smoking ?
Cheating is a vicious deed. But it can be reformed. I find that if a cheater cheated on someone, is given a second chance and does it again, they'll always cheat on THAT particular person. Because they know they CAN. Lack of boundaries enforcement, they lost respect/ attraction for that spouse, they're not there emotionally, etc.

However, the same cheater may become the sweetest, gentlest faithful spouse to someone new. Someone that they do genuinely love. There's no better rehab than love. If we can stop smoking/ drinking, or any other vice for the person we love, then it is definately feasible to stop cheating too. 
It is the same cheater, but the circumstances differ : they are emotionally in the relationship, there are firmer boundaries, fear of losing their SO that they do love and respect.

Thus, if you recognized yourself in the first category, and are married to a "serial" cheater, do yourself a favor and RUN. He/she will never be faithful to YOU.
He/she may or may not cheat on their future squeeze, but why would you care by then...


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## LoriC (Feb 18, 2013)

Hortensia said:


> Do alcoholics keep drinking ? Do smokers keep smoking ?
> Cheating is a vicious deed. But it can be reformed. I find that if a cheater cheated on someone, is given a second chance and does it again, they'll always cheat on THAT particular person. Because they know they CAN. Lack of boundaries enforcement, they lost respect/ attraction for that spouse, they're not there emotionally, etc.
> 
> However, the same cheater may become the sweetest, gentlest faithful spouse to someone new. Someone that they do genuinely love. There's no better rehab than love. If we can stop smoking/ drinking, or any other vice for the person we love, then it is definately feasible to stop cheating too.
> ...


Very well put, Bravo!!


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## notadoormat (Jun 1, 2013)

Depends. On the amount of love and respect for the spouse. The reason for cheating. I.e. Did the bs refuse needs but the ws spouse tried to communicate to no avail. A drunken ins. An exit affair. Ws personality..manipulator liar selfish. Married for wrong reason kids etc. And the most telling behavior on and post dday. Every human is different as is every affair and there is no cookie cutter way to determine. In my case my ws refused to fix probs. He then had affair. Rug swept and i kicked him out. He wanted R. but i found out later he stayed in contact w her. They grew too emotiinally close.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

wranglerman said:


> I have other issues in my marriage based around an EA that never as far as I am aware never went PA, but I am reading so many threads of cheaters and those that have been cheated on that I am finding myself asking one fundamental question.....
> 
> *Once you cheat will you always be a cheater?*
> 
> ...


No. Not always. I, for one, did grow up.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Hortensia said:


> Do alcoholics keep drinking ? Do smokers keep smoking ?
> Cheating is a vicious deed. But it can be reformed. I find that if a cheater cheated on someone, is given a second chance and does it again, they'll *always*
> 
> I disagree right there. "Always" and "never" are inherently lies. Nothing is always or never true. It's impossible.
> ...


This is sooo wrong and inflammatory. You are harming folks who have been devastated. It IS possible. NO one is saying it is not.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Hortensia said:


> Do alcoholics keep drinking ? Do smokers keep smoking ?
> Cheating is a vicious deed. But it can be reformed. I find that if a cheater cheated on someone, is given a second chance and does it again, they'll always cheat on THAT particular person. Because they know they CAN. Lack of boundaries enforcement, they lost respect/ attraction for that spouse, they're not there emotionally, etc.
> 
> However, the same cheater may become the sweetest, gentlest faithful spouse to someone new. Someone that they do genuinely love. There's no better rehab than love. If we can stop smoking/ drinking, or any other vice for the person we love, then it is definately feasible to stop cheating too.
> ...


I am curious if you mean this only in regard to PA or if you include EA in these scenarios. I ask because I speak from my own experience as the above mentioned serial cheater, having had 2 EAs... even we CAN be faithful to the BS after having cheated. Yes, we should have been faithful all along. My point is that each person is different. Some of us can be redeemed, even after more than one A, and be faithful to the betrayed spouse. I'm very thankful my husband didn't turn and run either time.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

Contrary to many's opinion I don't believe that it's a roll of the dice. 

You are precisely who you make yourself. 

Which is very bad news. I honestly feel that if it were a roll of the dice there'd be a lot less cheaters. The fact of the matter is that the only ones who cheat are the ones who allow themselves to. Usually these kinds of people are not going to change for the better, if only because they have allowed themselves to come to the point initially to begin with. 

The fact of the matter is that the natural consequences that come with cheating are not catastrophic enough to the cheater to make them consider what they're doing. Under the Mosaic Law cheaters were executed. That was there to show people how horrible a thing it was to cheat, but since the punishment (and in many important ways the social stigma) has been removed, infidelity is a major problem for American families because most people simply cannot be counted on to do the right thing for the right thing's own merits.


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> This is sooo wrong and inflammatory. You are harming folks who have been devastated. It IS possible. NO one is saying it is not.


Wow why this attack? I am just stating my opinion, take it or leave it. I'm not harming anyone. I'm speaking as someone who gave a cheater multiple chances. This is the conclusion I reached at - based on my own experience and other's in my reality.

Also, I'm not saying you must be an ogre to cheat, and you can't be otherwise be a sweetheart. Although, this is the reaction of mostly all TAM members here: "He/ she cheated, therefore IS NOT A NICE PERSON" - a belief that I do not always agree with. 

And yes, the BS can work on themselves to prevent future cheating. But if their spouse was taken back and cheated on them again, it's not about the BS, but about how the WS feels towards them. The work the BS does on themselves- reading self improving books, becoming more assertive, etc, can help them though, in future relationships. 

Again, this is my view. I'm not enforcing you on you so please don't call me shallow for having my own opinions. I have stated them respectfully. You have not. 
Whatever my opinion triggers, please do not direct your anger outburst at me.


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> I am curious if you mean this only in regard to PA or if you include EA in these scenarios. I ask because I speak from my own experience as the above mentioned serial cheater, having had 2 EAs... even we CAN be faithful to the BS after having cheated. Yes, we should have been faithful all along. My point is that each person is different. Some of us can be redeemed, even after more than one A, and be faithful to the betrayed spouse. I'm very thankful my husband didn't turn and run either time.


I'm generally speaking of PA's.
Anyone's view of an EA is different. To some, even fantasizing about the neighbor is called an EA. Even having any closer friendship with an opposite sex member is an EA. It depends what an Ea exactly means to each person.
To me, an EA is a feeling of infatuation, even love, towards someone who is not your spouse. It becomes an Ea, if you consciously feed this obsession instead of cutting contact. It is an EA if you secretly hope you can get to be with the AP. 
Just having a brief crush, but choosing to behave and stay faithful does not mean an Ea. TO ME. To each their own.

So my statement is addressed to the PA's - consciously and willingly fully betrayals.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Hortensia said:


> Wow why this attack? I am just stating my opinion, take it or leave it. I'm not harming anyone. I'm speaking as someone who gave a cheater multiple chances. This is the conclusion I reached at - based on my own experience and other's in my reality.
> 
> Also, I'm not saying you must be an ogre to cheat, and you can't be otherwise be a sweetheart. Although, this is the reaction of mostly all TAM members here: "He/ she cheated, therefore IS NOT A NICE PERSON" - a belief that I do not always agree with.
> 
> ...


Not an attack. It's just my opinion.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Hortensia said:


> ....
> And yes, the BS can work on themselves to prevent future cheating. But if their spouse was taken back and cheated on them again, it's not about the BS, but about how the WS feels towards them. The work the BS does on themselves- reading self improving books, becoming more assertive, etc, can help them though, in future relationships.....


But does'nt that confirm that a cheater is of a predatory nature (which to a large degree I think they are) 
She/he finds her husband/wife non aggressive non assertive, a thoroughly decent person so he/she shvts all over him/her with nil respect - affairs left right and centre

So the WS moves onto the next one. Does the new one have to be non assertive then so as not to upset the WS in the new relationship or else they will suffer the same destructive fate?

You mentioned earlier a new love can stop a cheat from cheating again because there is a new line of respect there. I tend to think it's very very difficult for a cheat especially a serial cheat to not go there again whether the new love is assertive or not. 

I think it's in the serial cheat's blood to do it and especially to do it so easily 

There's an awful lot of non assertive 'nice' men and woman who have a good marriage with no infidelity in it because either partner is not looking at taking advantage of that 

I've had two woman in my life who have been serial cheats. I know I'm a decent regular guy who made two wrong choices and suffered for my penchant for choosing 'victims' and enabling them to the extent where they could easily take advantage of me.

I won't be looking at any self improvement books about myself but I will be making sure I never give 
myself to this kind of woman again who I know psychologically are prone to cheating nomatter who they are with.

Maybe coming to this conclusion _is_ my self improvement


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

I think it depends on the cheater. I do believe some are capable of reform. Unfortunately, some will also continue their behavior.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

My observation in regard to, “once a cheater, always a cheater” is like saying, “anybody who gets drunk is an alcoholic. Obviously, neither are true.
The question central to this issue is "what caused you to cheat to begin with?". Unless you can get a handle on the cause, you will likely cheat again.


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

Most people don't change. when people are a few years past their young adulthood they're pretty much set in their ways. Many cheaters will get caught, cry up rivers to rival the Ganges, Promise on a stack of bibles to change, swear on parent's/children's graves, dedicate a rain dance Cthulhu, etc. 

Then a few months/years down the line they're at it again(especially if theres no consequences), if you want to see evidence of that here go to the members list and find the tag ally babe. 

Now I'm not saying its impossible, but honestly its not probable. While a very small few do change, its at no meager cost nor length. Those kinda changes take a lot of effort and lot of time and can fall through before it completes itself.(like an alcoholic falling off the wagon after 3 years of sobriety)

For a more direct answer to your question. 

Few can, most do not. 

My question to you is, do you want to bet years of your life on it?

Trying to R with a cheater is akin to needing one card in the deck to make your royal flush.

And be on guard, don't think you dodged a bullet just yet. Devastated Dad caught his wifes EA, and then even after being discovered it still went physical later on. 

If anything you're still on the hot seat.


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

For sure at the time of the EA there was no way for it to go PA due to being on different continents, although there was a distant past history between them and I am talking more than 10yrs ago since they last had any type of contact, it was him getting in touch through FB that sparked it all off, although I am unfortunately remembering more red flags from the past that do strongly suggest that this was not the only EA to have occurred in our marriage but I have no proof of that and my other thread asked for opinion and advice on whether to confront her and talk it out and actually encourage her to confess on her own to her actions so we can move forward, kind of decided to ditch that idea and go on the defensive with intelligence gathering when our personal situation changes at the end of the month, if she is going to go back to that way then it will certainly be when she is in her own comfort zone, and if I am still here working for a couple of months to see my employer through the busiest part of the year then it will be when she is home alone so to speak, it is amazing reading threads here on TAM and seeing the lengths some WSs have gone to to conduct their As whether they are internet based EAs or actual PAs but I know the EA thing is now a trodden path so might comeback easier and faster when she is alone, keyloggers and VARs will be ready to be placed and then collect my evidence when I visit on days off.

When I used to run a company I had a favorite saying, "give them enough rope to hang themselves", now for me it was to simply engineer a situation where an employee could steal or abuse company property seemingly without getting caught or having to face any consequences, then strategy and technology would nail them every time!!! 

Although this is my marriage and not my job and it is a lot more personal to me this time, but I do not want to be in a similar situation in a few years time because she thought the dust was settled and the guard was down, time will tell if she can be trusted or not but I would rather it was sooner than later!!!


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

With my many years of experience I'll say this, once that line is crossed it fades away. I would say yes they do. But if you don't want to except that at least know the line is gone and its much easier to pass something you don't recognize.


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## Lmodel (Jun 1, 2012)

In my case I very much doubt my wife will cheat again. She took ownership of the affair and she is very aware of the devastation she caused to a great many people including our kids and the kids of the OM. I still don't fully trust her and that will take some time given the extent of the lies she told but I really can't see her putting herself or her family through that again. She is also aware that she certainly wouldn't get another chance from me but more importantly our kids would find it difficult to fully forgive her again and if that's not an incentive I don't know what is.


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

wranglerman said:


> For sure at the time of the EA there was no way for it to go PA due to being on different continents, although there was a distant past history between them and I am talking more than 10yrs ago since they last had any type of contact, it was him getting in touch through FB that sparked it all off, although I am unfortunately remembering more red flags from the past that do strongly suggest that this was not the only EA to have occurred in our marriage but I have no proof of that and my other thread asked for opinion and advice on whether to confront her and talk it out and actually encourage her to confess on her own to her actions so we can move forward, kind of decided to ditch that idea and go on the defensive with intelligence gathering when our personal situation changes at the end of the month, if she is going to go back to that way then it will certainly be when she is in her own comfort zone, and if I am still here working for a couple of months to see my employer through the busiest part of the year then it will be when she is home alone so to speak, it is amazing reading threads here on TAM and seeing the lengths some WSs have gone to to conduct their As whether they are internet based EAs or actual PAs but I know the EA thing is now a trodden path so might comeback easier and faster when she is alone, keyloggers and VARs will be ready to be placed and then collect my evidence when I visit on days off.
> 
> When I used to run a company I had a favorite saying, "give them enough rope to hang themselves", now for me it was to simply engineer a situation where an employee could steal or abuse company property seemingly without getting caught or having to face any consequences, then strategy and technology would nail them every time!!!
> 
> Although this is my marriage and not my job and it is a lot more personal to me this time, but I do not want to be in a similar situation in a few years time because she thought the dust was settled and the guard was down, time will tell if she can be trusted or not but I would rather it was sooner than later!!!


Nonetheless, be careful. Her EA doesn't have to go PA with om across a continent but it can set the stage for a PA closer to home. 

And don't think years apart means anything. You'll see people cheating with an AP that they met in high school and they're in their late 40s when they 'reconnect.'


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

Kasler said:


> Nonetheless, be careful. Her EA doesn't have to go PA with om across a continent but it can set the stage for a PA closer to home.'


So what is the best plan of action to stop a spouse from straying again after an A if you have decided to R?

I know there has to be some sort of understanding and counselling to begin the communication process but what areas need more focus and attention to ensure there is fidelity?

I have been busy with myself and have been working out changed my appearance slightly and have put a lot more effort in to our marriage, and she has been putting a lot more effort in too but I can't say I trust her not to cross that line again, no matter how many rivers of tears have flown, I have forgiven enough over the years and refuse to be treated like a door mat, she has seen and watched me change into more of an alpha and I am putting greater challenges on her to prove and show she is willing to commit to our marriage and so far there has been good moves forward but I am conscious that past can come back and haunt as has been shown here on TAM so many times.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

wranglerman said:


> So what is the best plan of action to stop a spouse from straying again after an A if you have decided to R?
> 
> I know there has to be some sort of understanding and counselling to begin the communication process but what areas need more focus and attention to ensure there is fidelity?
> 
> I have been busy with myself and have been working out changed my appearance slightly and have put a lot more effort in to our marriage, and she has been putting a lot more effort in too but I can't say I trust her not to cross that line again, no matter how many rivers of tears have flown, I have forgiven enough over the years and refuse to be treated like a door mat, she has seen and watched me change into more of an alpha and I am putting greater challenges on her to prove and show she is willing to commit to our marriage and so far there has been good moves forward but I am conscious that past can come back and haunt as has been shown here on TAM so many times.



Sounds like you too are doing all that you can and should to make it work. The first things is to remove all the temptations (email, FB, texting, etc), total transparency on both sides, open and effective communication, and a commitment to change and the other partners needs (on both parts) after the issues in the marriage pre-affair have been addressed and brought out.

After that, if what you are doing is not enough, then the marriage will not survive. It is all on your work on the marriage. Trust is something that will need to be earned from this point on. If things are going as planned, you will see that it should get better. There is nothing that you can do that will keep it from happening again, as that is only something that the WS can decide to correct within themselves. You can just be the best partner you can be and hope that is enough (if it is meant to be it should be more than enough).


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

In general... The ones I’ve noticed that go back to cheating often never really got hurt with their first affair. Things may have gotten unpleasant or strained or difficult, but they healed over what went on post DD. The memories of the affair itself went untainted. 

The ones who haven’t cheated again got seriously hurt by their earlier affair. It remains an open sore for them and ongoing pain that they did that. They trigger like us BS’s. Remorse versus regret.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Racer said:


> In general... The ones I’ve noticed that go back to cheating often never really got hurt with their first affair. Things may have gotten unpleasant or strained or difficult, but they healed over what went on post DD. The memories of the affair itself went untainted.
> 
> The ones who haven’t cheated again got seriously hurt by their earlier affair. It remains an open sore for them and ongoing pain that they did that. They trigger like us BS’s. Remorse versus regret.


:iagree:


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## pollywog (May 30, 2013)

Kasler said:


> Nonetheless, be careful. Her EA doesn't have to go PA with om across a continent but it can set the stage for a PA closer to home.
> 
> *And don't think years apart means anything. You'll see people cheating with an AP that they met in high school and they're in their late 40s when they 'reconnect*.'


My case exactly. They dated in HS and hooked back up 3 months ago to a full blown affair. He has lied from the git go about them just being old friends. Gut instinct and knowing him told me other wise. I told him to delete all pics, texts and videos he had from her and he immediately asked how I knew about those. Ummm I didn't until you just admitted it but I had suspicions all along. I let him think I actually saw them and may at some point tell him otherwise.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Kasler said:


> Nonetheless, be careful. Her EA doesn't have to go PA with om across a continent but it can set the stage for a PA closer to home.
> 
> And don't think years apart means anything. You'll see people cheating with an AP that they met in high school and they're in their late 40s when they 'reconnect.'


Same with my WW. She "hooked up" (just started as the innocent re-connection meaning through FB and then turned it into the dirty PA kind) with an old HS flame.


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