# "Normal" T Levels?



## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Just a quickie... 

What are "normal" T levels??

My husband got his T count back... Says he's 670 and "normal" is between 250 and 1100... I don't understand the huge gap in "normal" range... Is this correct or am I misunderstanding something?

Only curious, thanks. 
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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

How old is your husband?

Normal, I think is a loose term that doctors use to consider starting treatment.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

He'll be 34 next February. 

We've been trying to find out the cause of his *chronic* fatigue, (even after 10 hours of sleep)! depression, low sex drive, muscle tension, etc. If the doc says his T levels are normal then I guess it's just depression causing his symptoms?
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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Normal, for his age.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Did he also have his thyroid checked? That can cause some of those same issues.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

I remember he had a blood panel done not too long ago; I believe everything was normal and I'm pretty sure they checked thyroid and whatnot.

They've tested him for a multitude of things... Including giardia, parasites, adrenal function, liver, etc.

Actually leads me to another question... I've been doing some Google searches and I don't completely understand everything I've read, but is it true androgens can cause testosterone to become estrogen? If so, how does one know how accurate their T levels are?

I know he should talk to doc about this, but he always thinks the doc has the final word. 

I'm just curious, really. 
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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

It's a quantity given in nanograms per deciliter. The difference between 250 and 1100 is a factor 4. So the difference between say the lowest concentration A and the highest concentration is 850 ng/dL which doesn't sound too weird for me as were talking about the extremes of the normal distribution. It's probably a normal distribution with the most likely testerone levels somewhere around the average value and the extremes rather rare.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

670 is in the normal range for a 34 year old.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

YinPrincess said:


> I remember he had a blood panel done not too long ago; I believe everything was normal and I'm pretty sure they checked thyroid and whatnot.
> 
> They've tested him for a multitude of things... Including giardia, parasites, adrenal function, liver, etc.
> 
> ...


Hopefully he'll wise up. They always but always should be double checked. But you seem to know that so at least you have his back even if he doesn't.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

What are his symptoms?

How is his stress level?


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## youkiddingme (Jul 30, 2012)

How is his sleeping? Does he snore? Sleep Apnea will certainly lead to chronic fatigue.


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## Revel (Mar 13, 2012)

youkiddingme said:


> How is his sleeping? Does he snore? Sleep Apnea will certainly lead to chronic fatigue.


I was going to suggest this as well. Testosterone, thyroid, and sleep apnea would be the top three things I'd check. 

A level of 670 is very close to average of a 34 year old. See the bottom chart in Normal Testosterone Levels in Men by Age - Free and Total Healthy Male Ranges. Average for the 30-34 year old is 621. In theory, high levels of estrogen could be a problem, but not likely at those levels of testosterone. It's possible, but unlikely, that the free testosterone levels could be low.

Again, I'd follow up with sleep quality issues. Can he fall asleep easily during the day? Does he snore at all?


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Wow! Sorry I did not see the rest of the replies until now...

Open Up - I think I understand what you wrote, and his results are listed in the format you gave (670ng/dl).

AFEH - I always worry about being too pushy... But I'm not sure his fatigue and symptoms are normal for a man his age. Luckily for me, he does take my suggestions to heart, even if they turn out to be dead-ends. 

Deejo - Chronic fatigue is his number one symptom. I also (accidentally) neglected to mention his chronic low blood pressure in my initial post. At his last check-in it was 98/60. (64 BPM, 16 Resp.)

He will sleep for 10 hours and complain about being tired after he wakes up! He tosses and turns a bit (I think it's normal, and I see a lot of it since I sleep less than he does). Generally he is pretty listless, unenthusiastic, unmotivated, depressed, etc. He started Prozac about two months ago, but this has been going on for years. He has a history of abusing Tramadol and he thinks he may have done some permanent damage regarding his Serotonin levels. (He was an addict for approx. 3 - 5 years). He's a very thin/small person, (5'5.75" and 115 lbs.) but is athletic and exercises at least a few times a week. (Running 3 miles in 30 minutes, and he does almost 70 push-ups every morning before work... Which is also a physical job).

Even though he is generally very laid back in character, I know he is experiencing a lot of stress providing for his family. We are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place, financially, but he's been more open to allowing my input on things like the budget. I think my energy can be draining for him as well. We are both "Type B" personalities, but sometimes I spend more energy trying to engage him.

Low sex drive. Always saying he could (and has) gone years without it. No big deal to him, it's "just another way to get off" so we average about once a week, and I'm sure that is to appease me. :/

YouKiddingMe - Funny you should mention his snore... I can't put my finger on it, but he definitely snores differently than anyone else I've heard. I don't think he stops breathing, but it has always been strange to me...

So, I don't think I've forgotten to mention anything that might be relevant. I know he would like to have more energy and these things have been a "dark cloud" for years. We just aren't sure if it was the SSRI use or... Something else?

ETA: Stomach issues. He is always complaining about tension and discomfort in the tummy area but he can't really articulate whether it feels like muscular tension or like actual organ discomfort...

Thanks for all of your responses. 
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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

He can't sleep during the day. Even if he's dog-tired. And even when he is dog tired, it takes him forever to get up and get ready for bed so he can actually sleep! He likes to "rest" before sleeping! I always thought that was weird.

He's a light sleeper like I am, and since I have problems sleeping I'm sure I inadvertently wake him up some nights, or the baby will. Or the mouse in our room... :sigh: Al I know is he always wants to rest and he can sleep for ages but it isn't refreshing for him. I've often thought maybe he has Chronic Fatigue Syndrome... Minus the pain? I was diagnosed with this myself a few years ago in conjunction with Fibro, but if he has it, it's much worse than mine. :/
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## IsGirl3 (Nov 13, 2012)

Visit the website Thyroid Mistreatment, Hypothyroidism Scandals, and Thyroid Treatment Problems | Stop The Thyroid Madness. the normal range is way to big. there's also T3, T4 and FT3 (free T3). Educate yourself about the thyroid and look into all meds including armour thyroid. it's tough to find a good thyroid doc. good luck.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

IslandGirl, thank you for the link, however I'm just getting a black screen on the phone. 

I will see if my husband can dig up his blood panel paperwork, but I'm not sure if I know how to read it, honestly... :/
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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Yin, his number is ok. Do you know his Free Testosterone numbers? Those are important too.

I'm 52 and my total T was about 400. They put me on supplementation and it went to 888. I was thinking of nothing but sex 24/7. Now it is back down to about where your husband is, and my libido is still where it was when I was 20 yrs old. T is only one factor for libido. If his free T is good, I would venture his fatigue and low libido are not T related.

Thyroid is a possibility.

Low blood pressure could mean low blood O2. I think it would be worth exploring the cause and the implications of low blood pressure.

Possibly associated with low bp, does he have ED types of issues. It is very demoralizing and may cause him to be embarrassed to even try sex.

This one may be out there, but he may have a gluten intolerance. Gluten problems can cause all kinds of things, and especially his non-specific abdominal discomforts. Take him off of all gluten for 2 weeks. It is a bit difficult to find gluten free at first, but once you learn the landscape it is pretty easy, and you tend to eat healthier. No wheat products. No oats unless they are labelled GF. No breaded things like fried chicken. Avoid french fries because some places coat them with stuff that has gluten. After 2 weeks see if his gut feels better.

Does he maybe have sleep apnea? Has he been evaluated for sleep problems by a specialist?


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

YinPrincess said:


> Just a quickie...
> 
> What are "normal" T levels??
> 
> ...


So some things fall within a larger parameter than others... say for instance blood pH is very narrow between 7.35 and 7.45 and yet certain growth hormones and prostaglandins have wider ranges. You are not misunderstanding anything. Also it must be noted that Testosterone like Cortisol fluctuates throughout a 24 hour diurnal cycle. Nothing unusual about these types of results. BTW, you should understand that hormones other than Testosterone affect a persons libido. If you are concerned about this, I would have had his cortisol levels checked, Thyroxine levels and blood sugar. So many factors involved. We are a complex organism.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Never been sleep-evaluated before... Have no idea what his "Free T" numbers are, but I'm sure if they were not normal the doc would let him know... Or, maybe not, I'm not sure. :/

His diet is pretty good, we both eat fairly healthy. He doesn't eat fried foods, fast food, etc. He tells me what he eats at work every day - sounds alright. Usually he'll have a salad or a tuna melt or something. He eats a lot of fish and poultry... No red meats, breads or the like. We eat lots of veggies, beans and fruits... When we do buy tortillas or bread it's always wheat, though. So maybe I can get him to quit eating those things for awhile... But he really doesn't eat them all that often to begin with.

No ED that I'm aware of, he hasn't had any problems getting or maintaining an erection - he does take a very long time to orgasm, though, thanks to the Prozac. (We're talking an hour plus).  But he can do that hour plus without any issues.  

I just asked him if his thyroid and adrenal tests were normal and he says he thinks so, but he can't find his paperwork.

Thanks you guys, for all your suggestions. Hoping we can figure out something that will make my hubby feel better soon. 
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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Thanks, Drerio... I will ask him to have the doc test those things and see what comes up.

Is it possible that all of his issues are just the depression? I would think that the Prozac would be helping with some of these things by now... Which is making me think it's something else. I don't think I've ever met someone so low-energy before... It's bothersome for him and we BOTH get frustrated with it at times...
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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

How much does he weigh and do you know is estimated body fat%... I only ask because there are a number of things to consider. 

I would also inquire about things like liver function test (BUN), Hematocrit levels, also one needs to consider the difference in T3 vs T4 levels when doing Thyroid testing. Is he taking any MAO inhibitors or SSRIs? 

What many fail to recognize is the permissive nature of hormones, that is how the level of seemingly unimportant hormone can actually inhibit the actions of another.

Edit: Answered my question on SSRI


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

His BMI is going to be microscopic, I think! He's 5'5.75" and 115 pounds. Thin, but athletic and has quite defined muscles. 

Yes, SSRIs seem to be a curse. He has been on them - different kinds for years and he has abused Tramadol severely. (I did not know he was an addict until I watched him go through two weeks of scary withdrawals). And now he's on Prozac, which is essentially another SSRI. 

I would like to find his blood panel to see what has been tested and what hasn't.

I'm not going to bother him with too many more questions, but maybe I can compose a kind of checklist for him to take to his doctor to check out... 
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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

you sure he is not taking Tramadol any longer? These can sometimes become street drugs... I would be very concerned about this more so than the prozac. It really sounds to me everything about your H is normal, although I certain would have his liver function tested (doc probably already knows that given all the meds he has taken). I am more concerned about what he is taking. It may be hard, but you may want to press him a little about whether prozac is the only thing he is taking. I know its hard. Best of Luck Yin

Not too concerned about his BMI, seems good. Sometimes high BMI and high body fat% produces leptin which has effects on hypothalamic drive centers (mostly to do with satiety, but can have effects on other drive functions).


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

I can't be certain he isn't taking anything else - he is VERY sneaky when it comes to pills. Also, he works at a hospital and I know for a fact he has, in the past, acquired some pills there on an opportunistic basis. 

He was buying the Tramadol online before and since I don't have access to bank or credit card statements I can't be sure he still isn't doing that - if he is it could be a deadly combination.  The only things I see in his dresser (where he would likely hide pills) are vitamin and herbal supplements along with the Prozac.

Worse yet, I can't be sure that he's been honest with his doc or medication manager about his drug history or current meds. I hate not knowing if they know but I think it would probably be out of line for me to contact them... :/

And, if he didn't have muscles, he'd surely look anorexic or like a junkie. He looked really bad when he was on the Trams. I never knew it. I was so blind! Now I look back on photos and I can just tell... 
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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

YinPrincess said:


> I can't be certain he isn't taking anything else - he is VERY sneaky when it comes to pills. Also, he works at a hospital and I know for a fact he has, in the past, acquired some pills there on an opportunistic basis.
> 
> He was buying the Tramadol online before and since I don't have access to bank or credit card statements I can't be sure he still isn't doing that - if he is it could be a deadly combination.  The only things I see in his dresser (where he would likely hide pills) are vitamin and herbal supplements along with the Prozac.
> 
> ...


HIPAA laws are definitely going to restrict you access to his medical records. As I always tell my pre-med students: Most doctors know more about their patients than their spouses do. Take Care Yin. Just try to broach the topic in a very delicate manner, if you feel up to it.


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

B complex vitamin helps anti depressants work much better.

Has he had his Vitamin D levels checked? Low D can cause fatigue and a worsening depression.


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## BookOfJob (Jul 6, 2012)

Tired as in tired after work? Sitting down at desk all day? Has he tried to get tired as in tired of walking for 1 or 2 miles? Jogging? Maybe this kind of tired gives better sleep?
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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

He's tired after he wakes up. He's tired when he gets home from work (which is understandable because he's a valet, so he's running around all day in all weather, 5 days a week). He's tired on the weekends. He's tired during movies. He's tired... ALWAYS. We don't get to go out and do anything fun because he never has any energy.

This is probably all normal to some extent. I'm up all hours of the day and night taking care of the baby, and during the day I'm busting my @$$ doing housework, scheduling and maintaining appointments for all of us, keeping track of what needs to be done and when, etc. I know tired. I certainly don't get to sleep for more than a few hours at a time, and I would still have the energy to go for a hike or do something fun.

He never seems to have fun, either. When we are doing something that is supposed to be fun he is always grouchy and generally unpleasant.

He runs for a half hour, usually in the afternoons, maybe 3 times a week. He also does push-ups every morning. Exercise doesn't seem to help improve his mood or sleep, but I don't know how he feels about it... :/

Don't know what to do... But I appreciate all of the kind words and suggestions. I'm willing to do anything to help him... And help me... So I don't go insane. :/
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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

YinPrincess said:


> He's tired after he wakes up. He's tired when he gets home from work (which is understandable because he's a valet, so he's running around all day in all weather, 5 days a week). He's tired on the weekends. He's tired during movies. He's tired... ALWAYS. We don't get to go out and do anything fun because he never has any energy.
> 
> This is probably all normal to some extent. I'm up all hours of the day and night taking care of the baby, and during the day I'm busting my @$$ doing housework, scheduling and maintaining appointments for all of us, keeping track of what needs to be done and when, etc. I know tired. I certainly don't get to sleep for more than a few hours at a time, and I would still have the energy to go for a hike or do something fun.
> 
> ...


It sounds to me like depression and it’s been with him for a while. A good friend of mine said she handles depression by making him/her a welcome guest at her table. In that she listens to it and tries to understand what’s it’s telling her.


Depression is an extended feeling of sadness. Some say if it’s 4 weeks of sadness, then it’s depression. It’s called depression because the person’s head is bowed and their back bent, “depressed”. So you may want to observe how he’s carrying himself.


The best way out of depression is a life style change. Even simple things can help. For example head held high and a straight back really does help. But lifestyle changes can be tough to implement and maintain. Basically, to change our life style we must first change our self.

First thing I would do is to get clean of any drugs, prescribed or otherwise. I never took them, never went there.

Second thing is a change of “mindset”. And this is essentially how we look at things. Get him a copy of Awareness: The Perils and Opportunities of Reality: Anthony De Mello, J. Francis Stroud: 9780385249379: Amazon.com: Books it really does help people change their mindset as testified right here on TAM.

Depressed people don’t see the beauty that’s around them, so full are they of their stressful and depressing thoughts. So he needs to kind of wake up and smell the roses. And it is quite literally that, finding joyful and happy feelings in the simple but beautiful things all around us. And by no means least for example the beauty in his child’s smile, the changes in her behaviour and comprehension as she grows.


He needs a coach really, someone to lead him a bit and show him the way. Anthony de Mello may well do that for him, he did it for me. The biggest thing he helped me do was to distress myself …. and without any blue pills.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

AFEH - I have definitely observed these things in my husband for years. I always try to be "cheerful" and get him to "stop and smell the roses" so to speak, but I sometimes feel like I only end up annoying him with my cheerfulness. It hurts me, too, because I want him to be happy!

One change I HAVE noticed in him is his willingness to engage with his daughter more. He loves to play with her now, if even for just a few minutes. I hate to say this, but his damn phone still gets the majority of his time and attention, and he's oblivious to how hurtful that is. (It only hurts ME now, but sooner or later his daughter will end up feeling ignored, too)... I guess it's his escape... I just wish he would escape with us sometimes, too! Definitely in need of balance here. 

I will pass on your words of advice to him... I hope he takes them to heart and reads the book... Sounds like it would be a great read for both of us, actually!! 
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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I assume blood sugar was checked, too, with all of the blood work?


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Yes, I'm certain that his blood sugar was tested and came back okay... 

Seems like it just may be the depression. I'd hate for him to feel invalidated with me wondering if there's anything else wrong with him... It's just so... Depressing. :/
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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

YinPrincess said:


> Yes, I'm certain that his blood sugar was tested and came back okay...
> 
> Seems like it just may be the depression. I'd hate for him to feel invalidated with me wondering if there's anything else wrong with him... It's just so... Depressing. :/
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It probably is little to do with depression which is why he is on Prozac. However don't bury your head in the sand about the other possibility we discussed. Important to eliminate that factor. I for hope he is no abusing.


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