# Is "Unconditional love" required? Or did Ozark get it right?



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

The concept of "unconditional love" is an interesting one; it's often thrown back in your face when it's time to draw boundaries, as if no matter what your partner does, no matter what their motivations, you're there for them, you'll be the last person standing.

It came up in the show Ozark, of all places. That bizarre relationship between Wendy and Marty, and you wonder just why Marty puts up with everything. Even Wendy is wondering why he sticks around. Eventually Marty essentially draws a line at saying his love for her is unconditional, but-

"I'm not saying I love you unconditionally, but we have been through a s---load of conditions, and I'm still here."

I understand that. Maybe a very long time ago I would have described my love for my wife as being "unconditional" but I don't think it's accurate for most of us, and probably not even healthy. But Marty's version is what keeps a lot of marriages going. Is Marty happy? More likely he just can't see his life any other way. It's what he is now, what he does. I get that.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

There is one instance of unconditional love in my house: mine for my son. I will always love him, no matter what he does. Everyone else has to be nice, including me.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> There is one instance of unconditional love in my house: mine for my son. I will always love him, no matter what he does. Everyone else has to be nice, including me.


Agreed. That’s very different from the relationship with your spouse though. Why? Because your kids have no say in the matter (they didn’t choose to have you as parents, or even to exist; you kind of imposed that on them). That requires a love and responsibility like no other.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Casual Observer said:


> Agreed. That’s very different from the relationship with your spouse though. Why? Because your kids have no say in the matter (they didn’t choose to have you as parents, or even to exist; you kind of imposed that on them). That requires a love and responsibility like no other.


Plus he’s my baby. 😉😍 Even when he’s being a _teenager_ I still adore him.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

IMO, unconditional love between partners is all-but a fairy tale. Stop giving in to your partner's needs and see how long they stick around. Almost all romantic relationships are transactional in some way.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

The concept of unconditional love applies to pets and kids… and that’s it.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Hmm, maybe it’s possible to love someone unconditionally but respect, loyalty, staying in the relationship - that all comes with conditions. That’s apparent in most stories we read on here where nearly every betrayed spouse posts how difficult it is to want to divorce because they still love their wife/husband despite their cheating. There are even people who have divorced and still “love” each other.

So I guess you can love someone in your heart unconditionally, but logically know that you can’t stay in a relationship that is bad for you.

As far as _Ozark_ - I don’t think Marty or Wendy have a clue as to what love is!😅


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Casual Observer said:


> The concept of "unconditional love" is an interesting one; it's often thrown back in your face when it's time to draw boundaries, as if no matter what your partner does, no matter what their motivations, you're there for them, you'll be the last person standing.
> 
> It came up in the show Ozark, of all places. That bizarre relationship between Wendy and Marty, and you wonder just why Marty puts up with everything. Even Wendy is wondering why he sticks around. Eventually Marty essentially draws a line at saying his love for her is unconditional, but-
> 
> ...


I think I watched the first few episodes but had to stop because the characters were vile, unsympathetic dog turds.

Marty was a pathetic, if clever, wimp/cvck while Wendy was a worthless and unattractive ho.

I wouldn't personally put too much weight behind any "wisdom" these characters display about relationships.

As to the question about love????

It depends on what the definition is.

I primarily define love as action and choice. Feelings of love are nice but not evidence by my definition.

I can always choose to love by my actions regardless of what someone else does


I would probably do my best to act and choose to love Wendy if I was Marty but I sure as hell wouldn't pretend to be her husband and she sure as hell wouldn't get to pretend to be my wife.

I might have spared her life like he did because I can understand not wanting her harmed but she would never touch me again or ever have any consideration a wife would get.

I guess I definitely don't believe in unconditional marriage.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I loved a romantic partner unconditionally once, never again.

Wasn't right to do so, for either of us.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

GusPolinski said:


> The concept of unconditional love applies to pets and kids… and that’s it.


Yeah, that's basically my view too.


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## wolfstooth (10 mo ago)

I agree with what others have said; children and pets unless there’s deep respect and trust in a reciprocal way by both partners in the relationship; it’s not okay to engage in bad behaviour and expect your spouse to be of higher moral character; my experience is that many people will give in to temptation


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

Seeing the comments: you find a few $k missing, you ask your child. That’s where it went. No remorse. No regret. 

Child pulls a gun you tackle child before they get it leveled at your spouse and blows hole in your roof. No remorse no regrets.

Child goes along for the ride when someone else steals a vehicle, and hides out at your house knowing you’re not home then lies to you about having the thief in your house, and almost gets a swat raid on your house. No remorse no regrets. 

All things I’ve personally known to happen. 
Do you still maintain contact because they’re your child and supposed to maintain unconditional love?


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## theloveofmylife (Jan 5, 2021)

*Deidre* said:


> Hmm, maybe it’s possible to love someone unconditionally but respect, loyalty, staying in the relationship - that all comes with conditions.





ConanHub said:


> I guess I definitely don't believe in unconditional marriage.


These pretty much sum it up for me.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

That unconditional view is always short sighted.

A loyal pet could one day turn on you.
Either through sickness or other abuse met in his environment.

Your child might get closer to that unconditional love than others, but, our brood can over-boil our blood.

Your unconditional love for a violent or recalcitrant child can one-day turn into indifference.
That giving up.

I do know that a Mother's love is often, 'near' eternal.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Love is always conditional


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

SunCMars said:


> Your child might get closer to that unconditional love than others, but, our brood can over-boil our blood.


Unconditional love does not mean unconditional acceptance. I will always love him but he’s got to be nice to people. Loving him doesn’t mean I will tolerate shenanigans.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

was


SunCMars said:


> I do know that a Mother's love is often, 'near' eternal.


And that's possibly a source of great angst and mental illness for some, as it's an assumed role that must be played. Biological destiny at its best or worst?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Casual Observer said:


> was
> And that's possibly a source of great angst and mental illness for some, as it's an assumed role that must be played. Biological destiny at its best or worst?


I don’t view it as biological destiny. My mother never loved anyone but herself. Motherhood is in your heart, not your uterus.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Love always has conditions.
Love may include more acceptance than for other people.
Love may be less judgemental.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I don’t view it as biological destiny. My mother never loved anyone but herself. Motherhood is in your heart, not your uterus.


But that put her at odds with her assigned role, requiring that she rationalize why she was OK with being selfish. That rationalization often leads to more of the same, as opposed to the sort of introspection that has you thinking, maybe there's a different path where you can thrive on the happiness of those around you, instead of being so self-centered. A long way of saying that those who are different from the almost-universal (mothers loving their kids unconditionally) are going to be very tough to reach. They have to exist in a world of their own, apart from others, to survive the daily onslaught of messaging that could suggest to them that there's something amiss (with themselves).


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> A long way of saying that those who are different from the almost-universal (mothers loving their kids unconditionally) are going to be very tough to reach. They have to exist in a world of their own, apart from others, to survive the daily onslaught of messaging that could suggest to them that there's something amiss (with themselves).


This is me. 

Having said that, I've been very open and honest with my adult children about who I am, and it doesn't really seem to matter.

I do have a form of 'love' for them - probably more duty and commitment. 

I wouldn't say that I love them unconditionally. They've behaved very poorly towards me for quite some time. But I'd always be willing to reconcile and move on. Forgiving them is an ongoing thing, which isn't difficult for me.

I'm actually much more accepting of their faults than they are of mine.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Casual Observer said:


> But that put her at odds with her assigned role, requiring that she rationalize why she was OK with being selfish. That rationalization often leads to more of the same, as opposed to the sort of introspection that has you thinking, maybe there's a different path where you can thrive on the happiness of those around you, instead of being so self-centered. A long way of saying that those who are different from the almost-universal (mothers loving their kids unconditionally) are going to be very tough to reach. They have to exist in a world of their own, apart from others, to survive the daily onslaught of messaging that could suggest to them that there's something amiss (with themselves).


Assigned by whom? It’s a choice. Women are people, they make decisions about who they’re going to be.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Assigned by whom? It’s a choice. Women are people, they make decisions about who they’re going to be.


But you didn’t have a choice to be born with a uterus, nor a choice to live in a society in which women are assumed to be the primary caretaker for the children. While you get to make your own decisions, the weight of those decisions, the consequences, are different from what a man faces. It’s a “going against the grain” thing, which is likely to polarize its effect on people such that it brings out the very best in some, the very worst in others. There’s no easy “safe” choice.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

The emotion of love may or may transcend conditions.

But actual relationships are all very conditional- even between parents and children. Millions of parents and children are completely estranged. 

One may experience the emotion of love for their spouse. 

But to remain in a hands-on relationship with them involves many conditions, the loss of any of which may result in the dissolution of that relationship.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Casual Observer said:


> But you didn’t have a choice to be born with a uterus, nor a choice to live in a society in which women are assumed to be the primary caretaker for the children. While you get to make your own decisions, the weight of those decisions, the consequences, are different from what a man faces. It’s a “going against the grain” thing, which is likely to polarize its effect on people such that it brings out the very best in some, the very worst in others. There’s no easy “safe” choice.


So assigned by society. Even now, after all this time, still there is an assumption that all women are the same person in different bodies.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

I only believe in unconditional love for children - even then, that has an expiration date for when they reach adulthood. If my children decide to become horrible people when they become adults (going against my parenting), then I could definitely see myself no longer loving them. Sure, it would hurt worse than anything I could ever imagine, but I look at everyone as an individual. Every horrible person in the world is someone's child. Who am I to say that my children are any different? Just because they are MY children? What makes me so special? Answer: I'm not special. Everyone has autonomy and can decide if they want to be good and have integrity. Same goes for my children. I can only hope through good parenting and instilling my values in them will give them the tools to become good adults and live their lives with integrity, but at the end of the day, it will be their choice. Not mine.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> So assigned by society. Even now, after all this time, still there is an assumption that all women are the same person in different bodies.


I don’t think we can pretend that’s not a battle women have fought throughout most of history, and men will do what they can to convince society it’s the natural order of things, to try and keep it that way. We’re not that far removed from The Handmaid’s Tale.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Casual Observer said:


> I don’t think we can pretend that’s not a battle women have fought throughout most of history, and men will do what they can to convince society it’s the natural order of things, to try and keep it that way. We’re not that far removed from The Handmaid’s Tale.


We’re always really close. If the left doesn’t back off we’ll be back there. We had it working and they’re messing it up by grifting.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

red oak said:


> Child goes along for the ride when someone else steals a vehicle, and hides out at your house knowing you’re not home then lies to you about having the thief in your house, and almost gets a swat raid on your house. No remorse no regrets.
> ....Do you still maintain contact because they’re your child and supposed to maintain unconditional love?


I'd maybe have to cut contact and/or take other action, but I'd probably still love them.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Laurentium said:


> I'd maybe have to cut contact and/or take other action, but I'd probably still love them.


I tried to watch some Ozark episodes I hadn't got to yet but bickering was too much.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

I have to say that i honestly cringe when i hear the phrase "unconditional love" as though it is boundless, that there is no transgression that would not forgiven because the person has this unconditional love for another....when Erich Fromm, a psychoanalyst noted in his book "the art of loving" where he identified unconditional love as an aspect of mothers not fathers. Frankly unconditional love is best kept within the realm of art and poetry and outside the world of reality where just about everything is conditional.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> The concept of "unconditional love" is an interesting one; it's often thrown back in your face when it's time to draw boundaries, as if no matter what your partner does, no matter what their motivations, you're there for them, you'll be the last person standing.
> 
> It came up in the show Ozark, of all places. That bizarre relationship between Wendy and Marty, and you wonder just why Marty puts up with everything. Even Wendy is wondering why he sticks around. Eventually Marty essentially draws a line at saying his love for her is unconditional, but-
> 
> ...


I sure don't have unconditional love for my wife. One false move, and i'll fall out of love real quick. I do have unconditional love for my kids. It doesn't matter what they do, i'll always love them.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> The concept of unconditional love applies to pets and kids… and that’s it.





Laurentium said:


> Yeah, that's basically my view too.


Unfortunately, many conflate their marriage vows and commitment with "unconditional love" and believe it limits the options their spouse has for issues in their marriage. Even here on TAM we see a few for whom marriage is a virtually unbreakable contract, with the occasional exception for adultery.

Further conflation came about with the concept of "no fault" divorce, which allows some to believe that there's plenty of blame to throw around on both sides, so no party is really at fault. Don't get me wrong; no fault divorce is a necessary evil because an abused or simply wrong spouse requires remedy that doesn't involve proof of evil.

Sadly, marriage is like most everything else in life. Without a concept of accountability, which requires consequences, it can easily fall apart. "Unconditional love" is a get-out-of-jail-free card in the eyes of some. They might not see it that way ahead of time, before their transgression, but it certainly comes up after.
*[MC rant mode=ON]*
Having been through several marriage counselors and ICs, I have first-hand experience that "therapy" can focus way too much on trying to minimize responsibility and maximizes "forgiveness" at the expense of, well, credibility. It's only when the aggrieved party makes a strong enough case, consistently, and over time, that an MC will understand that yes, there's a reasonable line in the sand that's been crossed and the spouse needs to understand that there are consequences for their actions.

I get that the therapist has to take time to get to know the couple (and guard against a controlling and manipulative spouse claiming to be betrayed etc), but dang, a lot of time and money is spent during that validation, and worse, the spouse-at-fault has more time, builds more momentum, believing that they're not the issue. The longer the real issue isn't addressed, the tougher it is for them to accept it.
*[MC rant mode=OFF]*


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Plus he’s my baby. 😉😍 Even when he’s being a _teenager_ I still adore him.


Agree with this mostly. Sometimes with adult children you still have to draw boundaries and implement some tough love. Unacceptable behavior is just that - unacceptable.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

People need to be emotionally fed, or at least believe they would be emotionally fed if the person was able to do so.
Otherwise, they eventually get used up when the emotional feedings only go one way.
Unconditional love only works when both partners are willing to love unconditionally and give their all.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I only believe in unconditional love for children - even then, that has an expiration date for when they reach adulthood. If my children decide to become horrible people when they become adults (going against my parenting), then I could definitely see myself no longer loving them. Sure, it would hurt worse than anything I could ever imagine, but I look at everyone as an individual. Every horrible person in the world is someone's child. Who am I to say that my children are any different? Just because they are MY children? What makes me so special? Answer: I'm not special. Everyone has autonomy and can decide if they want to be good and have integrity. Same goes for my children. I can only hope through good parenting and instilling my values in them will give them the tools to become good adults and live their lives with integrity, but at the end of the day, it will be their choice. Not mine.


This 100%. I've already had the talk with my kid that her actions have been terrible; using people is never okay and makes one a bad person.

She was warned that continuing to do so may irreparably harm our relationship. How she reacts is not my call.


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