# Counseling helping but hurting?



## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

I am not really sure if counseling is helping my marriage. We have been married for 12 years and have two children. We are both in our 30s. Our marriage has been mostly good by my perspective but I know that my wife has struggled more and has pushed me to go to counseling. I finally gave in recently as I know that we have things to work on and I thought it might help. Well, it seems that a few months into counseling I noticed how my wife seems kinda distant and so I texted her and asked her if she is ok etc. does she still love me? is she attracted to me?

Well she told me she loves me but attraction is difficult for her when she feels hurt. See she has a lot of resentment about how she thinks I can be angry a lot. I was stunned as I thought things were better since we started counseling but now she told me that it is just hard to get past earlier feelings. To her I am angry when I am frustrated and wont talk etc. I never ever yell or use strong mean words. Anyhow this was hard to hear but I thought we would get through it...now it seems like we are on a million first dates or something. She used to be so much nicer to me and flirty and fun back when I was supposedly not acting as nice and now she does not want to kiss much as she feels pressured to have sex etc. Well this is stunning to me as we almost never have sex (1-2 month max). She told me that she still loves me and just needs time to see if that feeling returns. I wish we had cameras in our house for the counselor - i mean our lives are so boringly normal. Lots of nice behavior all the time from us both but somehow we are going backwards. I know for a fact she is not cheating and I believe her when she states her love for me. It is driving me crazy that she cannot show any real affection for me? What is wrong here? I am so confused?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I think I can help you out a little. Before I really answer though, there are a few basic concepts I need to explain:

The most basic concept is that the love in your marriage is like a campfire. There are actions that people do to stoke the fire of love and make it hotter--those are *Love Kindlers*. Much as adding fuel to a fire keeps it burning, makes it brighter and warmer, so concentrating on Kindlers, making them part of your daily interaction, builds the fire of your marriage. There are actions that people do that are like putting water on a fire--some are like dribbles out of a holey bucket, and some are like dumping a big bucket of water on the fire. Smothering a fire will eventually put it out. Actions that kill the fires of your love are *Love Extinguishers*.

When a couple first meets there are no Love Extinguishers...and at the same time there are TONS of Love Kindlers. Think about it! People in love tend to spend a lot of time together; they talk to each other and get to know each other--and they actually stop and listen; they do fun things together like go bowling or take walks; they look good for each other and flirt. They do all the can to avoid hurting their partner, instead concentrating on building love. All these actions are kindling the fires of love. All these actions are Love Kindlers, the things they avoid are the Love Extinguishers.

And sure enough, the fire of love blazes and they get married.

Even if they keep up every Love Kindler, in that first year of marriage they start to see a couple Love Extinguishers. Things like hanging the TP upside down, or not squeezing the toothpaste tube from the bottom. Silly, really, but they are little drips and drops. Then enter a more few Love Extinguishers. Maybe the wife is not a great money manager (or the opposite, a controlling penny-pincher); the husband works many hours so they don't spend as much time together; when they are together, they watch TV and don't talk anymore...and cup-size Love Extinguishers are being poured on the fire. Then more Love Extinguishers--kids are born and there's even LESS time together; the wife gains some weight and the husband wear sweats; he yell at her about bills and she disrespects his job; HE want sex and SHE doesn't feel connected to you so she resents it...and the Love Extinguishers are getting to be less like little cups of water and more like a downpour.

Are you with me so far? 

I suspect this is about where you and your wife are. She has been trying and trying and trying to tell you: "Honey this thing you do is a Love Extinguisher for me" and for several years she tried to push you to go to counseling and you resisted. So what might have been cup-size extinguishers became bucket size because you didn't want to stop doing them. Well...when one spouse (like your wife) tries to stop the Love Extinguishers and the other spouse (like yourself) doesn't really want to stop or doesn't want to admit they ARE an extinguisher....it builds resentment. The first spouse resents that you want to continue hurting them. The first spouse resents being neglected. The first spouse resents carrying the burden alone for so long. Resentment does not go away but can, on the occasion, be shoved in a box, or ignored, or imagined it's not there...but IT IS THERE. 

Now gladly you did finally one day decide to go to counseling. Good for you! :smthumbup: So you and your wife are at counseling and up to that point she probably "got along okay" by shoving down her resentment, ignoring it, pretending it's not there; however, counseling actually brings that all up and in the long run that's good because you want to GET RID OF THE RESENTMENT (not store it). To get rid of it--you have to bring it all up and deal with it. So even though it temporarily feels "worse" it's actually a good thing to go through and get it out. 

Here's the part that gets confusing though. 

USUALLY when you go to a marriage counselor, what do they do? "Oh date each other again! Rebuild that spark!" Right? In effect, they're saying "Do those Love Kindlers again--rekindle that flame of love." Yeah unfortunately that's not going to work. The couple try and try to do Love Kindlers but it doesn't build any flame....

....and here's why!

The *Love Extinguishers*!!! Any progress made is immediately put out with those Love Extinguishers!

It's like your wife's got a pail in which she could hold her love for you...and every time you do a Love Extinguisher, you put a nail hole in the pail. Over time some are small pin-holes and some are gigantic holes, but her pail to hold love for you is full of holes. And the marriage counselor keeps telling you to pour water into that holey pail. You tell me--how much water stays in there? NONE! 

What you have to do before you add the water (add Love Kindlers) is fill up the holes but stopping the Love Extinguishers!! Does that make sense? Otherwise you'll pour and pour and pour and what happens? NADA because the minute you pour in a Love Kindler you make a hole with the Love Extinguisher and it drains away all the stuff to kindle the flame. 

Sooo...here's our article about Love Extinguishers: What Are They? I recommend that you read that article to get the drift, and then take the Love Extinguishers Questionnaire or if she'll do it, ask your wife to take it and share with you what you've been doing to put out the flame of love in her heart. No matter WHAT she says, if she's brave enough to be honest, please tell her "Thank you for being honest with me. I'm going to think about what you've said." Then whatever extinguisher she identified, that's the one to work on. 

You mention Anger already. I can tell you from experience that being "frustrated and not talking" is the emotional equivalent of a hostage situation, because it's like saying, "I know you want to be connected to me but if you won't do what I want, when I want, I'm punishing you by taking that away." Thus my guess is that without even taking the Love Extinguisher questionnaire--if you signed up for an anger management class you'd probably a) learn a lot and b) vastly improve your marriage! 

If you'd like to begin learning about Anger in the privacy of your own home here's a good place to start: Anger Management Seminar. They do have a 24 Lesson Online Course for $65 but they also have the Anger Busting Workbook online for free!


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

veryconfusedhusband said:


> She used to be so much nicer to me and flirty and fun back when I was supposedly not acting as nice and now she does not want to kiss much as she feels pressured to have sex etc. Well this is stunning to me as we almost never have sex (1-2 month max). She told me that she still loves me and just needs time to see if that feeling returns. I wish we had cameras in our house for the counselor - i mean our lives are so boringly normal. Lots of nice behavior all the time from us both but somehow we are going backwards.


its not surprising that she is pulling away now. this is happening in my marriage, too. my H and i are much nicer to each other, he's doing a lot to turn around, but im just not feeling it. our life is incredibly boring also.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

So you are both saying this is normal for her to act colder to me now that I am "nicer"? our problems do not come from me alone but i am willing to accept what i have done wrong in the past. She needs me to accept all of her even the little things that drive me crazy...she is actually not really ready to accept all of me either but we are getting closer i think.


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

Boy, I hope Affaircare has all that somewhere so she can just copy and paste it because I hate to think, and it does appear, she wrote it all for nothing.



veryconfusedhusband said:


> So you are both saying this is normal for her to act colder to me now that I am "nicer"?


You said your wife has resentment because of your behavior. Affaircare explained how her resentment builds and explained much more. What is it about resentment don't you understand? You spent years putting out your wife's flame. You decide to be nice for a change and expect what?



veryconfusedhusband said:


> our problems do not come from me at all


and without taking a breath........



veryconfusedhusband said:


> but i am willing to accept what i have done wrong in the past.


The first part negated the second part before you even said it, which means you don't accept responsibility for anything because the problems don't come from you, remember? Yet, you are here posting about the problems that you caused. Hello?

Twice when mentioning your behavior, you introduced it as "_how she thinks I can be . . ._" and "_To her I am . . ._" as if it is all just her imagination. When you own up to something and stop denying your behavior has caused damage, then you will see some progress from the counseling. You didn't just say these things here. You have the same attitude in counseling too. Your wife does not appreciate you pretending acceptance. All that means is you give in and let her have her say. What progress can be made by you accepting and denying all in one breath? She needs you to own up. She needs you to apologize. But then I guess you will expect her to want to jump your bones right after. Which leads me to your next statement.



veryconfusedhusband said:


> She needs me to accept all of her even the little things that drive me crazy...she is actually not really ready to accept all of me either but we are getting closer i think.


LOL Was that honestly encouraging? Or was that feigning encouragement? Why do I think the latter? Try this because it's very important - Love your wife selflessly. Love her without any expectation. Love her whether she loves you tit for tat or not. You are the only person you can work on. You are the only person you can change. Trust that she will come along and that you can teach her after you learn, but use that trust as neither motivation nor distraction. Just love her selflessly. Would you like to know how? It is easy to learn how, but I need you to tell me you want to learn. Don't say you do unless you truly want to love your wife selflessly and unconditionally. Are you interested?


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Thanks all for the input. I do agree that I need to focus on me and just be the best husband I can be but that is harder said then done. I love her so much and really in the past several months since we started counseling i fell back into that romantic love stage that you normally feel in the first few months of a relationship. From her perspective the problem in our relationship was due to my anxiety about some problems (family members health etc) we are dealing with and how I express it by looking angry and not being warm etc. I agree that I have drawn into myself and it probably looked ugly to her...i get it. But what she does not understand is that sometimes as a guy I dont want to share all of my fears emotions etc. as I am trying to hold it together and be strong. This obviously drives us apart. I also have been so frustrated for our entire marriage by the lack of sex we have and the way I get rejected so many times that i almost give up - never can as i want sex and i just love her so much. So she has all the control in that area - she will tell me not to ask about if we are going to have sex that night as not natural - well i agree but i am not a mind reader - and she will also tell me hey i did not know you wanted to you should have let me know i am all cozy with this book now so no thanks. I know she enjoys it as she says so and has an orgasm every time - yes i am patient and we move slowly and then quickly and sometimes a bit rough and sometimes really sweetly. But now it just feels weird as she says my compliments to her are hard to hear as she does not know what to say back - i am like we have been married all this time and you have nothing nice to say. So strange as counseling and what have learned in the last months as helped me let go of some things as like most guys the last thing I want to do is hurt her ever - somehow i have changed? At first i just thought through things before responding to situations and then it became more natural and i really love not being stressed about the stupid stuff i used to think was important. But now she is still saying i am not sure what my role is in our problems - ok how about the fact that you actually get really mad at me sometimes over dumb stuff (it never really bothered me much as before i always thought hey everyone is bound to lose it sometimes) or the fact that you never initiate sex - and i mean never in 12 years and you reject me so much that now i just wait for the perfect window which falls somewhere when you are not close to your cycle (which is now 8 days) so now this is about 2 1/2 weeks a month. Ok then it has to be a weekend - never mind that she only works a few days a week - then it has to have been an easy day and not too much to do after kids go to sleep and the list goes on and on. So when all the worlds align i try to cozy up to her and see how she feels - and yes i also do this on other days as i just like to kiss etc sometimes -. Well anyways a few nights ago all the worlds aligned and i really took my time and let her relax etc for awhile and then came closer and started kissing her etc. She was receptive at first but then pulled away and said this is ok but i feel so pressured for sex i am not enjoying this. Damn so i told her well right now i am just kissing and never said anything about sex but so what is that really so bad....i am sort of like what is wrong with me? It used to be before counseling we had better sex....yes not even close to frequent enough and very frustrating but at least it was fun and now she is so weird about it. So anyway we both started talking and she was like i hate arguing like this....well we were not arguing at all but it seems when she feels tension like when i used to get anxious often she interprets that as arguing. So i told her yes i am frustrated but it will be alright....i got up and got a drink of water and swallowed all of my manhood and just told her that why dont we just kiss tonight no sex. So we did and it was really nice...so cute like the start of the relationship. Anyway we are kissing and laughing i am telling her how beautiful she is and how i like her nose etc. but not going overboard with it but i am not hearing anything back. I rubbed my hands softly on her face with my knuckles and she let me for a few seconds or so and then told me to stop. I asked her dont you like that and she said yes but it is too much as she feels it is so sweet but she cant do that for me - I am like WTF this is 12 years into marriage can't you say something nice....what the hell is wrong with me. I just let it go and we continued kissing and then hugs then to sleep. As mentioned earlier I have asked her repeatedly if she is into someone else and she says no and i believer her...i am in good shape and decent looking guy. I understand that she might not be back into this "in love" romantic stage but come on really why or why were you so much more receptive to me before.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Well she told me she loves me but attraction is difficult for her when she feels hurt. See she has a lot of resentment about how she thinks I can be angry a lot. I was stunned as I thought things were better since we started counseling but now she told me that it is just hard to get past earlier feelings. To her I am angry when I am frustrated and wont talk etc. I never ever yell or use strong mean words.


Sounds like she held in her feelings. IMO, what she experiences is disapproval and rejection, when you won't talk. My H does that and it feels like he (1) hates me, (2) is disgusted with me, (3) thinks I'm stupid, (4) name your bad feeling. Because you don't talk to her, she has to fill in the blank herself - she KNOWS it's a bad feelling, but since you don't talk, she has no chance to either find out what YOU think is wrong nor to defend what SHE thinks. It is VERY discouraging, humiliating, un-empowering



> She used to be so much nicer to me and flirty and fun back when I was supposedly not acting as nice and now she does not want to kiss much as she feels pressured to have sex etc. Well this is stunning to me as we almost never have sex (1-2 month max). She told me that she still loves me and just needs time to see if that feeling returns.


Now that she IS speaking her feelings, she is FEELING them. If she's been holding them back, now that she's allowing herself to feel them, you need to be patient as she works through them.

That said, you also need to make it clear that you won't stay in a loveless marriage. She needs to respect you, to love you. And if you don't stand up for what you need, she can't. It sounds like you don't ask her to step up. You don't push for one thing you really want, more sex, which IMO is a bad thing in a marriage. She doesn't want it, so you just accept it. It kind of teaches her she doesn't have to participate in the marriage except for being selfish and doing what she wants. Which is why I suggest that you ask for what YOU want. Don't just try to please her.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

btw, she doesn't want sex with you because of all your Love Extinguishers. Women have to LIKE their mate to want to have sex with them. She's full of resentment over all the things she tried to tell you about all these years and for which she ASKED you to go to therapy and you REFUSED...you told her that what SHE felt was unimportant to you.

No big surprise she doesn't see you as a guy worth having sex with.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

thanks Turnera - seriously I appreciate your input. Yes I agree this makes sense and sort of reflects what is going on. She is now working through her feelings and I am finally letting mine be known. I think she is a bit thrown off by my affection right now and per her request I am sort of toning it down - she says it makes her uncomfortable (again this is so stunning to me) as she does not want to her me but is just not where I am right now. I am really doing best to just be a good guy and not pushing anything but part of me is heartbroken and I am needing space so i have been working out a lot and just sort of quiet. She thinks some how I am depressed and I keep telling her I am not - I told her recently it feels like she has me on ice just waiting for her until she is ready and she even sort of accepted that as true. I am not depressed just confused and so deeply in love with my wife - whom does not really want me to acknowledge this too much. 
Do you want to hear some more irony? Early on in this current issue with my wife - when I texted her about do you still love me? are you attracted to me? and she texted back that she loves me but attraction is difficult for her when not connected so no not really attracted right now. She also stated maybe we need to "woo each other more". The text was devastating but I agreed we need to try harder to show each other so I really stepped up by doing a variety of sweet things. Buying her a cd she wanted and inserting in her car player etc. little things like that....well she did none for me....zero. That is sort of what drove me crazy and so confused and to where I am now. We are still in counseling and the sessions are good. I am going to do my best to keep my mouth shut next time and try to learn more about what is going on in her head as I think the sessions have really been focused more on me lately and her reaction to my emotions. Funny as she wanted me to open up but now that i have (and also let go of some negative behavior) she wants me to turn it off? No i don't really think so but damn why are we going backwards....i am going crazy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok, throwing tons of affection and gifts at her does NOT fix the real problem - you. How you deal with her. She resents YOU, not what you do. If I told my H that I was fed up with him, and he just started buying me flowers and CDs, I'd be mad. I would want him to talk to me, find out WHAT I am upset about, what I really need from him. 

When she said you need to woo each other, what she means is that she needs to 'feel' good when she's around you. But if you don't address the underlying problems, like you not talking when you're mad, etc., there IS no wooing her.

I don't think she wants you to turn off how you're feeling.

And guess what? This has taken place over years and years. You are VERY much like nearly every other man I've seen in your situation - you wake up, you go overboard trying to make her fall in love with you again, without really understanding what happened to get her that way in the first place, and in two weeks you expect her to forget about the years and years of unhappiness. I'm afraid to tell you, it will take months, not weeks.

PS, can you break your posts into more paragraphs? It's easier to read that way.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Sorry about the lack of paragraphs i keep thinking I am done and then keep going. I agree and understand most of what I am hearing but our marriage issues are not all caused by me by any means. So to suggest that I have been mean for years and now suddenly buying gifts does not really describe our situation. 

But when she told me we needed to woo each other more I assumed that she understood she had some work to do as well. And this has not happened. I dont want gifts and I have not bought many for her but I have been sweet and it is just not coming back. 

As far as sex I think libido is a big part of it. She has never really wanted sex very often and I have just dealt with it. I have tried not to push and now is clearly not the time to push it but now i feel emotional rejection in addition to sexual rejection. 

Again why or why are things not smoother. I am really not getting this.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

LOL. your wife tells you that you need to "woo" her more but when you attempt to do the things that most associate with "woo-ing" someone you actually have the opposite affect. As usual your wife doesn't know what she actually wants and no one on hear will really give you any concrete solutions to get to what she wants. What you need to do is be yourself, enjoy yourself. Go out and get yourself a good book. Buy that muscle car you've wanted and fix it up. Start up that old hobby that you gave up to spend more time at home. Express yourself. When something is right or your upset then let it be known. Not by yelling but by communicating effectively (Many online resources on the subject). Stop "asking" for sex or intimacy. If you want to be intimate with your wife then be intimate. Did you ask for sex when you were dating or did you just "make your move"? get back to that. 

Once again, you will never figure out what she wants because she doesn't even know. All she knows is that she doesn't "feel" it for you. Using a man's logic you think that doing this + that = her "feeling" it again. A woman's feelings aren't logical and change consistently. If you like doing things like giving her flower's, cards, etc. because it makes you feel good then do that, I do. Just don't do it expecting it to be the code to unlocking her feelings towards you. Work on being happy yourself. Also communicate your expectations of intimacy in your marriage. Let her know when your upset about the lack of it, don't pout about it. When you do that your putting her in the same predicament of trying to figure out whats wrong with you and she's not a mind reader either.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Kobo -

I think you are dead on as to what I need to do and in fact that is what i have been doing the past several days. I think on these boards it becomes confusing as I am sharing more of my thoughts here than I have with her lately as that is not working lately because as you stated "she does not really know what she wants". 

Its so funny though because as I have done these things....get out of the house, start reading more books, more exercise she says "you seem depressed or detached? are you alright?" in my mind I am like WTF - like a catch 22. She does not really want to hear what is on my mind as that has not helped. So I just tell her "no I am fine just busy etc." So I guess I just need to give it time. I am really coming to the conclusion that while women say they want to know what is on our minds they really often dont like what they hear. 

I used to not express myself enough and hold it in and I would be anxious and not fun to be around - most of these issues were my own issues but sometimes due to frustration with her and how she seemed to put me last and also did not seem to care that i had sexual needs (i am not a bad lover - i please her i know - i can go as long or as short as she wants etc. but i just need that physical connection).

Anyway I have told her that if she sees me going that way again to just give me a hug and a minute or two - and that maybe I will talk about my concerns with her another time or if they are scary things than talk to someone else. I dont think most wifes want to hear that you just lost a ton of money in the stock market or that you keep having fears of the death of a child. 

The counseling sessions are also very good - it so odd as I look forward to them know and wish we could go twice a week just so we could get past this awkward stage. I really miss her. But I do want some changes in our relationship just as she does so I guess I will just try to be patient. Anyhow thanks again. It helps to let this out here.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you ever heard of walkaway wife? That is what she is. She was unhappy for many many years, but held it in and suffered in silence. What that does, is it drains her love for you. Especially over so many years. Believe me, I have lived it - 30 years. Once I finally figured out what to do to fix the marriage, 28 years in, it is probably too late. I DON'T love him any more. He has had too many chances to do what I asked. I have asked for counseling too many times to be turned down. I have been hurt too many times. Ignored. Belittled. Joked about. Just today, at a store, the girl asks if we want a bag, and he laughs and pats me and says 'No, I have my bag right here!' I tell him he hurts me but it doesn't matter to him - until I can no longer take what to him is NOTHING. But to me, is EVERYTHING. Today, he makes an effort, somewhat. But I am so far removed from loving him that it will likely not make a difference. When I can afford to leave, I'm gone.

You don't know what she wants? ASK HER! If she doesn't know, KEEP TALKING about it every chance you can get, so that you can narrow down what's wrong. 

Just saying 'She's a woman, I'll never understand her' is just one more copout, which she is very likely fed up with.

You either want your marriage and are willing to put some major effort into it, or you're not. If you are, communication is going to be what fixes it. Not gifts, not romance. 

She has not been heard for a good 10 years. So she doesn't even know what she needs. But I'll tell you what the main thing she needs is - to be heard. To be an equal. To be taken seriously.

Did anyone recommend yet to get the Love Buster questionnaire at marriagebuilders.com? I know affaircare suggested you look at hers, which are basically the same thing.

This questionnaire, if she fills it out, will be like her 'telling' you what's wrong with your marriage. It is the #1 way for you to 'hear' her. If I were you, I'd go get it right now and give it to her. Just giving it to her would mean a lot to her.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Turnera -

You have given me some insight so thank you. But I really do not think my situation is so similar to yours. I have never in my life called my wife names and to do that in public is so shameful I don't get why anyone would do that it just makes them look like a mean fool. 

I did not want to go to counseling because I really did not think our problems were that serious - yes I know if they are serious to her they should be to me - i am learning. And also because I feared that the entire focus would be on me and that she would not be ready to deal with her side of the equation. I think part of this comes with the fact that I have thicker skin and when she gets nasty with me I don't take this as personally. For example I have learned to never call something my wife likes stupid. Early in our marriage I might say that show is so stupid I dont get it and she would take that as you think i am stupid? Well you could tell me something i like is stupid and I might say not to me or yes but I still like it etc. 

Clearly this is just how she is and since I do love her and want her to be happy I should be more sensitive to this kind of stuff. As a guy my sensitivities are different - for example I remember the moment after we said "I do" at our wedding I was overcome with emotion and love with her. It seemed that she was more worried about how the pictures were going to come out and the connection was not that great that night. I have never told her this...why would I? She is my wife and this kind of information would just make her feel bad. I love her and she is really sweet lots of the time and I am sure she has had many experiences where she felt connection to me and I was not in the moment. 

My situation right now seems somewhat similar to that wedding night. I just want to hold her and kiss her and flirt with her all day long. This is a bit much for her right now so I will just try to notice when she is likely to be receptive and then go easy with it. It feels sort of like dating again and a part of me likes that as it is fun to be in love with a beautiful graceful woman who wakes up in bed next to me everymmorning and is the best mother to our children. So i will focus on myself and wait for my love to love me the way I love her....what is scary to me is that even if she does not get there I will just have to find a way to deal with it. This is my house and my wife and my kids and I just cannot imagine it any other way. 

Thanks to all for the comments it helps me to be strong (and sweet). I am not interested in any books or links or anything like that though as we are involved in counseling right now and I don't want to mess this up. To love is to die a thousand deaths but to never have true love surely must be worse.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Update -

We had sex last night but it was pretty lame. About 10 minutes into it I just told her we should stop. It was just boring. She was just going along with the it and after talking about it after she told me she was just not into it but new I wanted to so was willing. It had been a while since we had sex at least a few weeks so I was surprised it was so bad. 
The last time we had sex two weeks ago it was really good. We had gone on a date and she was into it that night. It was really good that night for her and ok for me but with all the issues we have been dealing with I was just pleased she was "into it" and I enjoyed it mostly.
I think I am really hung up on her absolute inability to show or say nice things to me. It is like she is stuck on the off button. But hey not all bad as she did make an effort last night. I am getting worried she enjoys things as they are evolving - Me being pleasant and nice and her just being whatever and almost no desire of intimacy from her.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Update -

Another awkward day but at least its over. I am trying best not to be too nice or flirty at all as it seems pointless plus she seems to get annoyed by it. So strange - starting to wish we had a really big house so I could have my own room...as I just feel we need some space right now. I can tell she still thinks I am depressed or something but I just keep telling her I am fine as telling her what is really on my mind is not helpful for anyone.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Why not?


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Why not? Not sure what you mean but assuming you mean why not tell her what is on my mind. She knows enough already - I told her how I felt and she has commented several times in counseling recently and out that she sees how I have let go of a lot of anxieties that bothered her and telling her sweet things is not what she wants to hear obviously as she has told me it makes her feel bad because she is not feeling that. Doing nice things is not working out well either even though I sort of thought that is exactly what she asked for when she stated she wanted us to "woo each other" again - well nothing came my way. When I told her that it felt that she had me on ice just waiting until she was ready she agreed mostly. 

So at this point I just think I need a bit of space - I am swallowing hard and being nice and all that but just don't want to be showing my love to her so much when she can't seem to offer any nice words at all. I know that part of this is that she is just unsure and truly needs some time but for me the kicker has been that she was so much more fun when I was not as pleasant so now I am stuck with a wife that I love very deeply but does not seem ready at all to work on things on her side - like showing some affection etc. Sort of funny though that now when she gets really upset with me over stupid stuff it just really stands to show her our issues are not all mine. I will accept much of the blame but clearly it is the dynamic between us we need to improve.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

As I tried to explain, if she has bottled up her feelings all this time, now that she has 'opened' that bottle, you have to expect her emotions to be all over the place.

Your issues are not all yours?

What is that?

Now you have the right to be upset with her because she's upset with you?

I'm not saying she's innocent. I'm saying that it quite likely IS your attitude that likely is the impetus for your current situation. You sound a lot like my husband. If I tell him something he does upsets me, do you know what he does? He goes and sits in a chair and gets UPSET. Upset that I'm upset. Sighs, drums his fingers, pouts. So NOW...we have to 'talk him off the ledge' of being upset. It all turned around to be about him. MY issue was completely ignored and never resolved. Have you seen any of that in your situation? If so, it could be a big cause of why she shut down.

You're upset because she won't offer you any nice words? When she's been silent and suffering for years, and you've been doing this for what...a few weeks? Um...ok.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

I meant to say that our issues are not all mine. Again our marriage issues are not all from me - so this idea that I have been some big meanie for years and now I am nice for a few weeks just does not fly. 
The story about how your husband gets down when you get down does not fit our situation (but again thanks for your input). If she is down I used to make the classic mistake of trying to be upbeat and offer solutions or ideas to her problems. I have come to realize most women do not like this and really just want you to listen. This is hard for most guys and also I remember earlier in our relationship she actually appreciated my input this way - but not anymore. So for the last few months I have not offered any suggestions just listen -- yes I know that is not long but hey I am glad I figured this one out. 
So again my main frustration is due to me waiting for her to make some changes or at least more openly acknowledge her love for me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Maybe the next step needs to be you figuring out what her perfect world would be. What would motivate her to get up in the morning and be happy to have you with her? What would it look like? And what can you do to be the person who helps her achieve it?

That's why I said don't stop talking. You need to hear as much as you possibly can from her about what makes her tick - even if she doesn't know right now - just listening to her can give you a better idea, and you might pick up on things even she doesn't know. And don't stop telling her what you think, either. You can say what you feel without it being pushy.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

I really agree with what you just stated and that is what I have been trying to do. But the problem I have and why I came here is because I so wish she would do that as well - even a small try would be great. That is why when she stated we need to woo each other a light went off in agreement...but now I feel foolish. Intellectually I get it..one of us needs to take that step and hopefully the other will follow. 

Just really hope it does not take too long or as I fear it never happens. Yes, I will keep talking but I am 100% sure that there are certain things I need other outlets for such as certain fears and concerns as my sharing this with her does not help me at all and it seems to make her worry as well. But other things, most things I need to express but really what i need to do for her is not be so bothered about dumb stuff and let her be herself more and I have really seen the light in this area -- it is really what i want for her too.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

Kobo said:


> you will never figure out what she wants because she doesn't even know. All she knows is that she doesn't "feel" it for you.


:iagree: 

i've come to this conclusion myself. ive stopped asking my H to do anything because it never works and im starting to realize its probably me that's going to have to change. BUT, he does many things that i do notice but i dont voice. I am still here. something is working. im not having affairs and we dont fight anymore. it is working, its just not as dramatic and overt as one might expect. small acts of kindness work over a person slowly and can take years for her to feel 'safe' expressing her appreciation. its not always safe to assume that because you dont see the changes immediately, that deep in her mind you arent stirring them back to the surface. 



Kobo said:


> A woman's feelings aren't logical and change consistently.


im willing to bet they are logical, you just cant keep up. my thoughts run on a broadband connection, yours are still on dial up


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> small acts of kindness work over a person slowly and can take years for her to feel 'safe' expressing her appreciation. its not always safe to assume that because you dont see the changes immediately, that deep in her mind you arent stirring them back to the surface.


This is exactly what Plan A is all about. You can't change your spouse. But you CAN change how you treat your spouse, so that they WANT to change FOR you. 

Remember, we ALL have our own viewpoint and, likely, our own set of disappointment and resentment in our spouse. He/she is just as upset with you as you are with him/her, usually. By focusing on THAT, you can fix what you do to Love Bust them so that they lose that resentment.

I used to literally hate my husband, he LB'd me so much. Hated him. I started Plan A and stored that hatred away for the time being. Worked on eliminating my LBs and meeting his ENs. The change wasn't immediate, but it was very noticeable. He no longer came home and growled at me or snubbed me. He started listening to me. He actually helped a couple times when I asked, instead of just walking away. _I removed his disappointment in me_.

And the strangest thing that happened, which I wasn't expecting, was that I started seeing the 'good' him again. Who was in there all along, but I had been so busy hating him and vilifying him, I had forgotten he was a human being. It allowed me to like him again.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Update - 

Well we had sex last night and it was decent. It was one of those nights that I would have normally asked her or flirted for it but I just kind of went about my evening. But I could sort of tell it was going to happen as my wife seems to have this long list of variables and they only line up a few times a month. Well anyway she came to bed in sexy panties etc. and that was her way of initiating I guess....hey not complaining her that is fine with me. The sex was really pretty good...I was pretty slow with the foreplay as I really just missed the kissing etc. lately but anyway it was nice. 

Funny though I could not cum...pretty wierd for me. I usually wait until she has an orgasm which is about 90% of the time or more and then i come a few minutes later...rarely i can time to hers but not so great if I jump the gun. Well anyway i just could not...sometimes it goes on for awhile and i start to feel bad and pragmatic as if her memory is of being sore that will push back the next time we have sex until god knows how long. 

We talked about it counseling a bit which was ok. Sort of funny the counselor saw my wife kinda go off on me with me just sitting there. I am glad it happened as now she can see a bit of one of my main concerns. She was doing the whole cross examination thing and then telling me she did not believe my answers --- oh god I hate that. 

Anyway back to the sex - It seems she wanted a medal or something for that. Yes it was nice but seriously I would have rather heard some affirmative words about her attraction to me. Yes, I am really hung up on this. You see she used to say fun and flirty things to me and now nothing. 

The counselors knew this was an issue and asked wife. My wife was flabbergasted and stated I thought I have given compliments...this is so weird I could care less about compliments most of the time like many guys but you sure start to notice when nothing ever comes back. Anyway she said well what about when you got dressed up to go out and I told you how nice you look. 

The counselor who is also female thought this was a great start and I could tell she thinks I am either making a big deal of this or really just need to give this time. Well I stated "you look nice" is something I might say to co-worker or friend. But when you tell someone you are not sure about attraction to them then this is not exactly what they are waiting to hear. 

My wife was like what do you need do i have to say something sexual. Sort of implying that i need some dirty talk or something....i could tell the counselor bit on that too. I finally just sort of through up my hands and stated when you are in love with someone you want to hear more than your shirt looks nice...right? The counselor sort of agreed and my wife got it but then she retreated into to the whole do you want to tell me what to say to you? that feels like pressure! 

And I told her no. I dont want anything you cannot feel but come on stop complaining that i am distant when you have even sort of admitted "you have me on ice". 

Sounds bleak but we are pretty committed and I think it is going to work but i dont want an ok marriage I want a great one or at least a good one where we are both giving for each other.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Hi Very,
I tried so very hard with my wife, she’d never go to counselling, I even made a last ditch attempt before we separated to get her to come with me. She was adamant she was going to leave rather than work on our problems.

Thing that got me was she was really upset about leaving. Things came to a head and I just couldn’t get her to the coach stop to the airport quick enough. Thing is this. She gave out an animal cry of pain as she got out of the car. She knew then we were over and done with. I’ve had little contact with her since but heard she was in a very bad way.

What I’m trying to say is while they can see they have us “hooked”, and they really do know it a lot more than we do, they can and do get away with whatever behaviour they like. They know that as well.

All this talk about “resentment” to me is total rubbish. I could be resentful of so many things, but I rid myself of resentment through forgiveness and understanding. Who the heck has the type of character that can “take” from a man while at the same time holding resentment, anger and strong dislike for him deep inside them? It is so two faced. What sort of character is it that can do that?

If the wife is resentful and will not forgive then she should move out and create her own life, her own joy and happiness and not take from and abuse the man that loves her.

Couldn't cum? Maybe you just don't know just how screwed up your emotions are, the depth and strength of them.

Bob


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## dsfg_lover_001 (Jul 4, 2010)

Well I understand how you feel.Managing a marriage is not easy,it needs understand and trust,honest.Your wife is very emotional now,maybe theres lack of communications between you and her.Right now just dont push her too much and tell her that you understand how she feels and tell her that if you still love her.Well i hope this advice could you to solve the problems for you and your wife.thanks for sharing.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

I am doing all those things. I know she needs time - my mind gets it....but part of me is just hung up on her not feeling it for me right now. She used to be so much more fun - before counseling when supposedly I was hard to live with due to my anxieties etc. and now she admits I am passed that but she is just not there yet and i keep pointing out in counseling all of our issues are not mine.

She is so beautiful to me....i have always thought this but really fell for her hard AGAIN so I guess she is nervous and unsure....it is always something it seems.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Update -

So things are seemingly better but still awkward for me. I think she is really pretty happy right now and seems mostly receptive to me but still she has no words for me and no movement toward me in terms of intimacy.

It has been almost a week since we had sex - and we had a really nice pleasant day yesterday so after kids went to sleep I told her that I planned on kissing her that night. I had flirted with her a bit during the day - again nothing coming back but I could tell she really like the attention so I kept it short and light. Anyway so after I told her that I planned on kissing her she acted sort of funny like.....ok? but she was smiling and good with it. Then a bit later she starts telling me that she might need to check and make sure she does not have a yeast infection (gross I know sorry). I was like ok of course hope you are alright - while I am also thinking why or why is it always something? I mean seriously?

So anyhow i am patient about it all and then after she takes a shower she tells me....well no I don't have that problem but I just started my period. Once again no surprise as it is always something...i know she is being honest as I knew she was close to starting. Anyway i said fine I still hope to kiss you anyway and she was really up for that.

So we started kissing and all that. Once again sort of sweet as I really love her and so attracted so this is fun too. It was nice for awhile and I was really attentive to her and tried not to go overboard but said a few things to her about how i just loved to watch her get dressed and how she is so pretty -- but again brief. It seemed like i kissed her sweetly all over (well not literally at all the sweatpants were not moving off). Again I like it all but reminds me of my 3rd or 4th date in high school or college with the really sweet girl who loves it all but is clueless. Anyway I started massaging her back and I know in the past i would only last a few minutes and stop but this time I told myself I would go as long as she wanted -- so this continued for about 10 minutes. We kissed a bit more and then we just stopped. 

I was left with my raging hard on to deal with myself. Somehow she just does not get this concept at all and I know this is something that I will insist on discussing and working through in counseling but just not yet. What really bothered me again was just how she seems receptive to all of my love and sweetness - which she deserves but still no sweet endearing words for me. No kissing me all over...no passion toward my body. Again we are moving forward and I can tell we are becoming more comfortable again but this is a setback for me and for her not something she even noticed not even on her radar. 

I just dont want to deal with this now but i also know this will cause me angst as it is so frustrating. We will see how our next counseling appt. goes I am really not sure if I should bring it up.
What do you all think? 

I am afraid this kind of complaining seems pretty weak etc. but the flip side is I am bound to get withdrawn again if she can't step it up a bit...just need some guidance. Any ideas?


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Guess this is going to become my online journal!!

Anyway today seems "normal" so boring to me though. I swear I think my wife just loves it this way. I am going from being in the romantic loving infatuated mode to damn is she just be selfish mode? 

Its like her problems are my problems and my problems are my problems. So now she is on her period which last over a week and there will be no sex of any kind...i dont think she realizes that lots of couples still fool around during this time. This would not be so frustrating if this was the only hold up to intimacy. It is just one of so many. 

Hopefully she will come around and say some nice things to me. Something you would not say to your brother. It really sucks sometimes to be in love with her. Yesterday she very indirectly expressed how pleased she is that I have let of some anxiety and seem more relaxed...this is true. I wanted to say great when are you going to wake the hell up and realize that my sweet love for you will sour unless you either acknowledge things you need to work on or start showing me some real affection instead of just letting me kiss you and touch you so nicely. 

I would love to hear from some women. Any ideas? HELP I LOVE HER BUT LOSING MY MIND>


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Here's the sad truth: Women do NOT have the same sex drive as men.

They just don't.

What to do? 

As the person who WANTS the sex, it is up to you to figure out how to get her to CARE. Again, sad but true. I do it because my H gets major anger going on if he doesn't get sex. So in my weakness I give it to him to keep him from going there. But do you want your wife to think of you that way?

The truth is, if you keep your sex drive, you HAVE to make it WORTH doing for her. WHAT will make it worth it for her?

That involves learning who she is. What makes her tick. What would make her hot to trot? What would OM do? 

Do that.



> Once again no surprise as it is always something...i know she is being honest as I knew she was close to starting. Anyway i said fine I still hope to kiss you anyway and she was really up for that.


For one, STOP SAYING FINE. Why would you LIE to her? It is NOT fine. Tell her so.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Look we have been married 11 years. I know what it makes her tick and I am positive this is not the issue. She is simply not interested most of the time. We can have the best day together it can be fun and playful and nice evening etc. and she will get focused on some project or movie or anything and the door is closed. Oh I can try and sometimes it works out but I am really getting tired of it. 

But really the main thing right now is when we dont have sex and we just kiss and hold and all that I am noticing I am doing all the kissing and holding and being sweet. Oh she loves it but nothing coming my way - and I am not talking sexually. 

Lately she just acts like we are forever on the second date and she is not sure about me. Well I know we will make it but I am starting to wonder about the future to....and this a woman i am deep in love for.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You don't know what makes her tick which is why you have no real influence over your sex life. Acknowledge that and you have a starting point. As long as you think you know what makes her tick no one is going to be able to help you.





veryconfusedhusband said:


> Look we have been married 11 years. I know what it makes her tick and I am positive this is not the issue. She is simply not interested most of the time. We can have the best day together it can be fun and playful and nice evening etc. and she will get focused on some project or movie or anything and the door is closed. Oh I can try and sometimes it works out but I am really getting tired of it.
> 
> But really the main thing right now is when we dont have sex and we just kiss and hold and all that I am noticing I am doing all the kissing and holding and being sweet. Oh she loves it but nothing coming my way - and I am not talking sexually.
> 
> Lately she just acts like we are forever on the second date and she is not sure about me. Well I know we will make it but I am starting to wonder about the future to....and this a woman i am deep in love for.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> You don't know what makes her tick which is why you have no real influence over your sex life. Acknowledge that and you have a starting point. As long as you think you know what makes her tick no one is going to be able to help you.


 No one is trying to dis you. It's just that we are seeing something you aren't seeing, and it's in you. Call it an attitude, call it a belief in yourself, whatever you want...but no matter what we tell you, you come back and tell us that what we suggest won't work.

Well, what YOU are doing isn't working, either, is it?


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

No I don't feel dissed. I just truly believe this is not it. I am just coming to realize what a barrier her low sex drive has become. Go read though the sex forum and this is really quite common. 

She would be perfectly happy to have sex 1-2 a month or even less I believe. I tell you I know what makes her tick and through counseling I have learned that in the past we often had sex after she finally gave in and felt guilty because she knew it had been so long. My current issue which is related is her lack of desire for me - not just for sex. It is just so frustrating that somehow she thinks this is ok -- selfish, selfish.

This is one of the main reasons I did not want to go to counseling in the first place. I know she just thought if we go that counselor is going to make you listen to me and then you will get it. She never even considered that maybe she has some things to work on as well - she kept saying "I just don't see what my role is in this problem we have." As she thought all of our problems come from me --- well maybe i can be tough to live with but show me some love woman - i need kind words too, i need your touch, and yes more than once a month i need sex. I already have a bunch of sisters I dont want another one. 

I do appreciate help but honestly it is not my approach to sex that is messing up our chemistry. It certainly has to do with how she feels connected to me - but again even in the best times of our marriage this has been an issue and I have really just had to deal with it on my own. Well i am sick of it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Isn't that what I said? I didn't say it was your approach to sex. I said it was knowing what your wife wants and knowing how to get her to want you. Therapy actually CAN help with that because it's communication and there's no better way to get that than with a professional mediator.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Yes that is what you said. BUT - if she was asked without any pressure in counseling how often would you want to have sex she would say a very low number and she would certainly pick none over lots. It is not that she needs some more connection for more intimacy. She loves intimacy and could so often care less about the sex.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

veryconfusedhusband said:


> It certainly has to do with how she feels connected to me - but again even in the best times of our marriage this has been an issue and I have really just had to deal with it on my own. Well i am sick of it.


Resentment is strong passive anger and dislike focused at the one who committed the “offence”.

If I felt that way about my wife, angry and disliking her, there’s now way I could have provided what I did for her. I just simply couldn’t have “given” to her. More importantly though I’m not the sort of person who could “take” from another while I’m angry at them and I don’t like them. To me that just seems very two faced and “using”.

I got rid of my resentment as I went through my life with my wife. Soon after the time my wife hurt me by doing something or other I forgave her for the offence. I worked on it, by myself.

Why? For a number of reasons. 1) People who hold onto anger and dislike not surprisingly become bitter and resentful people. No way will I be a bitter and resentful person. I’m a much better person than that. 2) If I’m holding onto anger and dislike about an offence “in the past” then I am living in the past. My present and future are way too important to me to let that happen. 3) If I’m angry at and dislike my wife then I feel a total fraud by taking what she gives to me. No way will I be a two faced, fraudulent person. 4) If I am angry and hateful then what happens to “Love”. Just where is the room inside for Love? I want to let Love in and Love out. Not to let anger and dislike put a block on Love. 5) People who hold onto anger and dislike, “resentment” from past offences become “victims”. These people actually turn themselves into victims. And that’s a whole other story. 6) I will lead a true and authentic life. I cannot do that while living with my wife if I have anger and dislike of her inside of me.

Some people just don’t get that stuff. I don’t know why they don’t get it. My wife let her resentment build up over the decades while we were together while I cleared myself of resentment as we went along. I didn’t need my wife’s help to clear up my resentment I did it myself by forgiving her.

But at the end of the day after 41 years together a strange thing happened. I resented my wife’s resentment. Can you believe that. Because of her resentment I had so much anger and dislike for the woman I once loved so very deeply it was unbelievable. This time round it’s taken near on six months to be rid of that stuff. And no, I am no longer with my wife because now I know she is just a bitter and resentful person. None of the good I did was ever mentioned, just the bad and most of that was made up in her mind, it had become twisted beyond belief over the decades she kept that stuff inside of her.

Resentments a killer of love and therefore a killer of marriages. I just don’t get why some people don’t know that, don’t understand it.

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Hey VCH,
It’s my experience that you’ll just be spinning your wheels until your wife’s resentment of you is cleared up, got rid of. Why not next time you go to counselling have that as your key objective. An objective to discover the “offences” you committed that made her resentful?

It is a “truth and reconciliation” process and as such is exceptionally deep, it needs open emotional intimacy and honesty. It can be very painful for both partners. But it is a “cleansing” of issues from the past and when you’re both through the process and out the other side then you’ll both have the right footing, foundations to build your marriage in the way you are both happy with.

She’s not going to give you anything like you need or want while she feels resentful against you.

Bob


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

I certainly agree with the comments about resentment. She certainly has some --- well I do too but that is not even addressed. 

Anyway my fear is that while this is true she also really just wants a lot less sex and is a lot less willing to please me non-sexually than I am her. She desires my touch and connection to her - she is loving it lately. But she is not reciprocating much at all. I have brought this up and she is just acting like she is not ready to use love words or affection words etc. Well this is getting old. 

And again to all those comments that suggest if I do this or that all of a sudden she is going to be turned on or tuned in. No that has never happened. I am just realizing how the only time I really recall that magnetic draw toward me and my needs and wants was before we were married. I remember sort of feeling crushed by the lack of it in our first year of marriage. So I retreated and resented this...yes wish I had been more upfront then/


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

It’s 12 years married and two children later! Lot’s of water under the bridge but the resentments hanging on, in both of you.

It’s my experience that the only person we can change is ourselves. So I suggest you be rid of your resentment first yourself. Just do it by yourself. Then you will know what true forgiveness is all about. It’s very calming, brings internal peace. Plus if your wife becomes of the mind to get rid of herself from her resentment you’ll be able to show her a way that worked for you.

It surprises me that your marriage counsellor hasn’t picked up on the resentment you both have. It’s my experience that nothing can be done until resentment for past offences, past behaviour is cleared up. It’d be like trying to get two pit bull terriers lined up for reconciliation while they’ve got bared fangs and are prepared to fight!

You’ve a lot going for you. Your wife “pushed” you to go to counselling. I could never get my wife there! Maybe it’s time to look for a new counsellor, one who knows just how damaging to a marriage resentment is.

Bob


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

veryconfusedhusband said:


> I certainly agree with the comments about resentment. She certainly has some --- well I do too but that is not even addressed.


Again, you keep bringing this around to YOU and what YOU aren't getting, when people try to get you to look at what SHE isn't getting. The point is, YOU want sex. If you want it, you have to get her to want it; to do that, you have to stop LBing her and meet her ENs. 

Since you are the one who wants this one thing the most, it has to be you who addresses what's going on.



> Anyway my fear is that while this is true she also really just wants a lot less sex and is a lot less willing to please me non-sexually than I am her.


Again, you have to accept that women biologically are not going to want it as much. They just don't. There will be exceptions, of course, but half the world's forums are filled with men wondering why their wife doesn't want more sex. They just don't! So to get it you have to work at it.



> She desires my touch and connection to her - she is loving it lately. But she is not reciprocating much at all. I have brought this up and she is just acting like she is not ready to use love words or affection words etc. Well this is getting old.


 Again, you are spending a lot of time looking at yourself and what you don't get, rather than what SHE is thinking. And if you want sex, you will have to pay attention to what she is thinking. It sucks but there it is.


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## noone (Jul 9, 2010)

AFEH said:


> It’s 12 years married and two children later! Lot’s of water under the bridge but the resentments hanging on, in both of you.
> 
> It’s my experience that the only person we can change is ourselves. So I suggest you be rid of your resentment first yourself. Just do it by yourself. Then you will know what true forgiveness is all about. It’s very calming, brings internal peace. Plus if your wife becomes of the mind to get rid of herself from her resentment you’ll be able to show her a way that worked for you.
> 
> ...


Bob - Question for you. How does get rid of his resentment? He resents his wife for not showing him affection. He can do everything in the world to make himself happy, however in the end if she does not choose to be more affectionate, won't the resentment still be there? 

I agree he needs to do stuff for her to make her want to be more affectionate. He needs to show her and earn this behavior, however what if she just never feels this is something she needs to do? 

Marriage is a two way street!!!


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Thanks Noone...finally. This is exactly my problem. My issue right now is that I am doing all those things that make her happy - and I really dont mind at all as I love to make her happy. But nothing is coming back.....nada. 

Turnera - you keep pointing out that I am concerned about my wants and needs. Yes I am right now because I am giving 100% and starting to feel like all she does is take...reminds me of early marriage period. I was romantically in love and wanted more connection and sex and she would just get too stressed about this or that....Hell always something and I was like the last thing checked off the list. It gets old. So that is my resentment that I am trying to get over. 

But it is getting harder because now that we are in counseling and I am 100% focused on her needs and she is 0% focused on mine. At some point women need to stop blaming men when they are not aroused -- she needs to take a role in this it cannot be all of my responsibility - btw --- I have accepted it is my responsibility and done all the things that make her happy, all the connections etc. and still no kind words, no sexy words, no attraction words and little to no sex. So please Turnera give me a break - it is not as if I come home and sit on the couch and watch tv until bed and then ask for sex. 

I AM A MAN! I LOVE MY WIFE! I AM GOOD TO MY WIFE! YES I AM IMPROVED AND COULD HAVE BEEN BETTER IN THE PAST BUT HER TOO!!!!! SO HERE I AM! SHOW ME SOME LOVE BEFORE I START LOOKING ELSEWHERE!!NO NOT GOING TO CHEAT BUT I WILL BECOME VERY DISTANT!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

veryconfusedhusband said:


> I have accepted it is my responsibility and done all the things that make her happy, all the connections etc.


Well, if you're so sure of that, why is she not responding? Have you ASKED her why?


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## noone (Jul 9, 2010)

turnera said:


> Well, if you're so sure of that, why is she not responding? Have you ASKED her why?


Has she asked herself that? If she has, then why isn't she telling him what her needs are to show him affection.

I am not trying to be an A$$, however this guy is the one who is trying everything to make her happy (Understanding we are only getting his side of the story).

Sounds like they have been to a lot of sessions and he has clearly communicated one of his needs. Does she has some responsibility to tell him why she can be affectionate?

Is it:

She doesn't love him? Doesn't sound like that is the case.
She is playing hard ball and knows she has the upper hand?
She just doesn't enjoy the affection (DNA)?

I agree he needs understand her (sounds like he is trying) and do things that make her want to be affectionate.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Hi Noone,
Of course marriage is a two way street there’s no doubting that. Resentment? What’s my experience? It’s something I wont have inside of me, I posted the reasons above. It’s a personal thing.

With resentment we keep ourselves “attached” too much to our partner. But we’re attached with Anger and Dislike, not with Love. In my world “anger/dislike” and “love” cannot co exist within me. I don’t let them. Not for long anyway. Three months max. This attachment is not physical like it is say with Siamese twins. The attachment is both psychological and emotional and it is very unhealthy. “I can’t live without you” that sort of thing.

Once we do away with our resentment we calm down and become peaceful inside. In a way we’ve taken our “self” out of the conflict and have taken the “higher ground”. From this vantage point, this new perspective, we look at our situation and our partner with “new eyes”. And sometimes with new compassion and new understanding. We can’t do that while we have anger and dislike inside of us. Those two, anger and dislike are very powerful emotions, powerful enough to override any love that may be there.

Resentment, anger and dislike also blind us to what it is we are getting from our partner, the positive things it is that we get from them. So if we harbour resentment we’re kind of shooting ourselves in the foot in that we are in great danger of losing the things we are getting from our partner and from our marriage. So while we’re working on getting rid of our resentment we also take a look what we do get from our partners and we “count our blessings”.

Sorry VCH but you do seem “consumed” by your need for affection and sex. It is understandable, we all need those things to feel “happy” let alone to feel loved. I could tell you my story but I wont.

You’re on your path of life VCH. Along your path your wife, the one person in this world out of the billions that share our planet has invited you to marriage counselling. This Woman in your life, out of the billions on planet earth, is at this point the one you want to give you “more love and affection”.

I respectfully suggest you take it on as a “duty” to find out, discover just “why” she has done such a thing. Be prepared to believe the unbelievable and chew it over for a while, no knee jerk reactions, don’t respond for a while. I reckon if you don’t you are in great danger of losing the blessings you have associated with your wife and all that goes with it. She Loves you Man. She even wants to work it out

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Hey Mr Man. You have “Romantic Love” for the Woman in Your Life. There ain’t many that know just how so very deep that is.

BLESS YOU VCH


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

AFEH - thanks and I do get what you are saying. 
Turnera - Yes I have asked and I stated here early in the thread. She is just "not sure" right now about her attraction toward me. Well she stated that about 6 weeks ago and that was about 2 months into counseling and after I had already started really focusing on areas I need to work. But she will take all my kisses and compliments and backrubs etc. Like I said not bad but just feels like the second or third date over and over -btw I would have been done if this was my second or third date - not because no sex. But seriously are you really just going to let me kiss you all over - no not below waist horndogs - oh yes I would though - but and let me touch your hair and face so nicely and just not reciprocate? Would have tossed that number in the trash. 

In sessions sense than she keeps saying that things are getting better blah blah. But trust me I aint feeling it. Oh she is nice and so am I but again this is my wife not my sister. 

To the idea that I am hung up on sex or affection. I get it - this is a thread you read through but this is my life I have been living the past six months and to go from more flirting, more sex, and more affection before counseling to none, almost none and nothing. 

She loves me and I love her. We are going to get through but I do not want to go back to how things were before I want it better and guess what it is not only not better but seemingly worse. 

I am not saying I am a model but I do take good care of myself. The closest thing I have gotten to a compliment in my appearance in the last few months was after she got on Facebook and she started noticing how so many people have aged differently in the last 15 years. And it really was just a brief comment that was mumbled after I told her can you believe how different so and so looks.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Have you had her fill out a lovebusters questionnaire?



veryconfusedhusband said:


> AFEH - thanks and I do get what you are saying.
> Turnera - Yes I have asked and I stated here early in the thread. She is just "not sure" right now about her attraction toward me. Well she stated that about 6 weeks ago and that was about 2 months into counseling and after I had already started really focusing on areas I need to work. But she will take all my kisses and compliments and backrubs etc. Like I said not bad but just feels like the second or third date over and over -btw I would have been done if this was my second or third date - not because no sex. But seriously are you really just going to let me kiss you all over - no not below waist horndogs - oh yes I would though - but and let me touch your hair and face so nicely and just not reciprocate? Would have tossed that number in the trash.
> 
> In sessions sense than she keeps saying that things are getting better blah blah. But trust me I aint feeling it. Oh she is nice and so am I but again this is my wife not my sister.
> ...


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

No but that is a good idea for the future. Maybe even now. I will look into it. I am guessing it is on this site somewhere?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Go to google - type in:
love busters questionnaire




veryconfusedhusband said:


> No but that is a good idea for the future. Maybe even now. I will look into it. I am guessing it is on this site somewhere?


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

I found it and it looks decent. I will print it out and give it to her some night after kids go to sleep. Hopefully we can do it together.

I looked through it and saw where she will mark some things I used to do in the past before counseling but have ceased as I woke up to how it affected and I realized I need to love her how she is etc. So I am thinking that most things will be in the past tense. 

But I did not see any areas in which it has the reader mark their level of love or affection or attraction to the other. Yes, I know this is repetitive and getting dull. I just took kids out to give her some free time at home to relax without chaos -and because kids need stuff to do. I have way backed off flirting with her as it is pointless and can make her "uncomfortable." But i texted her and referred to her as my "pretty wife". She just responded straight back saying she was enjoying some quiet time and thanks but nothing sweet nothing that distinguishes me as a husband or lover. Time might be the answer just hope I can hang in there.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The LB questionnaire is strictly about how you Love Bust your spouse. Nothing about love. All about negativity. I thought I had explained this, sorry.

It's like a bucket, your love bucket. LBs that you do poke holes in your wife's love bucket. Just holes for each one. All LBs are legitimate, if they bother her. Not for you to judge. The love part comes in with the Emotional Needs. We each have our top 5 ENs, and all are legitimate - no judging. 

Now, if you try to meet her ENs to get her to love you more, it won't make any difference if you are still LBing her. The LBs poke holes in the bucket; meeting her ENs FILLS the bucket, but they just keep leaking out of the holes the LBs produced - resulting in an empty bucket.

For example, my H keeps piling up papers, all over the house. He never goes through them; just keeps filling drawers and cabinets...he knows I hate it; all I ask for for presents for Christmas, Mother's Day, birthday, anniversary, is for him to go through his stuff and get rid of some of it. But he rarely touches any of it; it continues to grow. So, when he comes up with jewelry or candy or whatever...it's nice, I know he means well, but he _does not get it_.

All he would have to do is pay attention to his LB and STOP doing it! If he did, I would be so in love with him, all over him, doing stuff for him like I used to. But his refusal to address what makes me unhappy (his LBs) makes me pull away from him.

That's why you do the LB questionnaire first. So you can find out how you upset her and can stop doing it. 

Once you have addressed that, THEN you get her to fill out the EN questionnaire, and meet her ENs. Theory is, unless she's BPD or something or having an affair, making these changes WILL make her respond to you in the way you want.

And if you do this, and it works, you can fill them out, too, and ask her to learn about you and do the same thing.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Turnera - 

I have to say that we have been working on those types of things in counseling. At first we sort of negotiated some things - for example it used to drive me crazy how it would take my wife two or three days to do laundry. She would have piles all over the places for a few days. BTW - this is her laundry not mine. I do my own and the kids with mine at least once a week - they are little so little clothes are easy 

Anyhow there are several more. Well I finally realized a few months ago I need to let it all go - if I come home from work and dishes and laundry are all over the place oh well. I know deep down that this is just how she operates and most likely she was helping kids with projects and playing with them etc. as she is better than I at those things.

So this is why I am going crazy....I have stopped all the behaviors that bothered her. She knows it, she sees it, and she feels it. I mean I am really passed it. It feels so good for me too. Why don't you try Turnera? tell your husband you will not bother him anymore about the way he puts papers in places and then just rid your mind of it. I know it is hard but somehow I really did it and you can too. It is too stressful for everyone to worry about those things.

But now all the good stuff is supposed to come like you stated but instead it feels like it is going backward. All she has to say about it is that she used to do things for me and be affectionate because she felt she guilty or that she had to or pressured or that she was trying to play the role etc. even though she was angry with me. And now - well she just says "I don't want to do things or say things until I feel them." All the while she still say I love you sometimes and I know she does and can feel that but I need more. Hell my sister loves me.:scratchhead:


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Why don't I try? Because his papers pushed our dishes and our glasses out of the kitchen cabinets and I have to walk across the kitchen to get to them now, to the one cabinet he did not take over. Because it takes me 5 months to get taxes done because I have to go through about 25 stacks of papers every year (and growing). Because at least once a month, he loses something and I have to drop everything to help him find it, amidst all the stacks of paper, electronics, travel junk, and everything else he never goes through all over the house. Because my life is so negatively affected.

So you already had her fill out the questionnaire so that you both know what you do that bothers her? Because I have found that using it brings up all kinds of things we never thought of that are there, beneath the surface.

Honestly, if she has no desire to please you, she probably just doesn't love you any more. Maybe it's time to move on.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

VCH my wife told me she loved me “I do love you Bob”. I didn’t “feel” loved though. Looking back I think she was in a holding pattern, keeping things up in the air until she found a place to land.

She was ambivalent towards me, uncertain about how she felt about me. She had two opposing feelings at the same time. On the one side there was the anger and strong dislike for me caused by her stacked up resentment going back decades against me and on the other there was her love for me. In a way she was asking way too much of herself, to both love and hate me at the same time. She was never going to let go of her resentment and at the end of the day it was her resentment against me that killed my love for her.

I think people that harbour and nurture, take care of and feed their resentment are “blaming” people. “I behave this way because you did this or that” type of thing. That’s one of the reasons why it’s so important to be rid of our resentment, so that we can be “true to our selves”, behave in the way we are deep inside of us in accordance with our values and beliefs.

Bob


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She is totally taking you for granted. If she is a stay at home mom - the idea she can't keep up with the house - that you should work a full time job and THEN come home and pick up is a bit much. 

In 21 years I have maybe gone to defcon 5 - all out war - maybe four or five times. All out war was - I am heading for the door this is unacceptable behavior. Thing is I don't play poker. I don't bluff well. When I move towards the door it is not a "I am angry and have lost my mind". It is "I would rather be apart than with someone who is treating me this way". 

I really think your wife believes you have no "firm" boundaries. Not saying she is right but because she "thinks" that she is jerking you around.



veryconfusedhusband said:


> Turnera -
> 
> I have to say that we have been working on those types of things in counseling. At first we sort of negotiated some things - for example it used to drive me crazy how it would take my wife two or three days to do laundry. She would have piles all over the places for a few days. BTW - this is her laundry not mine. I do my own and the kids with mine at least once a week - they are little so little clothes are easy
> 
> ...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> She is totally taking you for granted. If she is a stay at home mom - the idea she can't keep up with the house - that you should work a full time job and THEN come home and pick up is a bit much.
> 
> In 21 years I have maybe gone to defcon 5 - all out war - maybe four or five times. All out war was - I am heading for the door this is unacceptable behavior. Thing is I don't play poker. I don't bluff well. When I move towards the door it is not a "I am angry and have lost my mind". It is "I would rather be apart than with someone who is treating me this way".
> 
> I really think your wife believes you have no "firm" boundaries. Not saying she is right but because she "thinks" that she is jerking you around.


Yes, it sounds as though she’s behaving like a six or seven year old and a spoilt one at that. Problem is if we need to construct boundaries against them, tell them the things we will no longer tolerate then we are treating them like a child. And wham we’re straight into a parent/child relationship. Of course it may well be that way anyway. But unless we put boundaries around us we just get more abuse. It’s difficult.

Reckon VCH is asking his wife to step up into the marriage like an adult so they can have an adult/adult relationship. He’s doing his bit, but she’s not doing hers.

Bob


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, my next comment was going to be maybe it's time to tell her you need a dedicated wife or you'll go out and find one. Sometimes it IS the ultimatum that wakes people up.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Turnera -

No, we have not filled out question list from LB. But we have bee in counseling for several months and discussing those very same things. This idea that certain behaviors of mine were getting in the way of our marriage were a big focus of most of the meetings for awhile. 
I did not bring up any of my LB type issues. Why? Because I think she was right there were certain things - hangups I had about the house being in order and other little things that were really getting in the way. And I really thought that once I worked on those things she would come become more loving and affectionate toward me.
For the record I work full time she works part-time. I used to come home and if there was a mess in the sink or all over I would be quietly mean. Just picking up and quiet and then she would start asking questions and then I would lead into her about why this or why that. That was not right. She is not my employee and she will eventually pick up. The difference is that she puts other things first and most of those are focused on nurturing and educating the kids. I know it and see it - she is a great mom. My mom used to keep the house in perfect order but we were always kept at arms length and told to go find something to do and lots of no, no, no when we asked for anything.
So now I just let it go. The bonus is that she has ended up doing much more. Sometimes I do the dishes and sometimes I just let them sit until she gets to it. It has not become a standoff - it seems healthy and normal. She often makes lists of things she needs to get done and I used to look at that list and sort of keep after her about all of it. Thats really not right. 

The other day she was sort of sitting around the house and the kids were engaged and she looked bored. She came up to me and asked "Is there something I should be doing?". I just looked at her and shrugged my shoulders. In the past I would have had 2-3 things on the tip of tongue to tell her. While I could think of a few things I finally told her I am done doing that. She smiled and it finally hit her - as she realized I had not done that in a long time. I know she liked it and she deserved it. 

You all are getting my version of events. I am sure I am unintentionally leaving out things that are going on that are important to her. I LOVE HER AND SHE IS THE MOTHER OF MY CHILDREN. I will never leave and ultimatums are terrible to give to people you truly love.

My wife is a really good woman and is not lazy by any measure. I really think she just needs time. If she is controlling or being unfair to me I know it is not on purpose. 

She loves all the changes I have made but in her words she is still sort of in disbelief. I have thrown her off her game. So now she really does not have much to complain about. Yesterday we were sort of yelling across house about something for kids - not arguing but I could not hear her - well it got old and her answers seemed strange as I did not understand why she was saying that. I finally muttered "whatever" at end of the conversation. 

When she came back into room she went into attack mode - I told her I was just frustrated that I could not hear her and then she attacked some more. I told her I was sorry. She kept attacking and I told her again I am sorry for what I said that was rude. She went on for awhile with it - its like if i say something she does not believe I feel it unless it goes on and on. Finally I went over and kissed her cheek and said I am really sorry yes that was rude and wish I had not said it. It took all of that to get her to realize I was sorry. I meant it the first time I said it. 

We have a counseling appointment tomorrow. i really hope to just keep my mouth shut as much as possible. The counselor a few sessions back sort of acknowledged that maybe she see someone else in addition to our couples sessions to sort of catch up - as counselor can see she is stuck in old pattern and driving me crazy. My wife did not really want to do this and I dont want her to go either. See I am in love and afraid a bit of someone else talking to her without me around to hear and understand. Anyway thanks for the help. 

Turnera - you sound just like I used to....all her mess around the house impacted me and it drove me mad. Now I just look at and then at her and see how she is happier at home without me over her shoulder and over time she has even become better at keeping things picked up. Let it go the IRS will not come get you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Confused,
The mindset of "I will never leave her" virtually guarantees you will never have a good sex life and for sure will never be treated like an equal outside of bed. 

She WANTS you to have boundaries and stand up for yourself. As for staying together - when my W was behaving in an unacceptable way and I told her I was heading for the door - she had a choice - she either WANTED to stay married or not. It turns out she did. 

And she has also on occasion given me that "choice" which was to fix my problem or she is gone. And each time I made a sane choice. There is a difference between threatening divorce in an angry voice and telling someone you are getting increasingly unhappy and that as a result you are slowly deprioritizing "their" needs. 

Most conflict in good marriages is more like Tai-Chi than Ultimate Fighting. 




veryconfusedhusband said:


> Turnera -
> 
> No, we have not filled out question list from LB. But we have bee in counseling for several months and discussing those very same things. This idea that certain behaviors of mine were getting in the way of our marriage were a big focus of most of the meetings for awhile.
> I did not bring up any of my LB type issues. Why? Because I think she was right there were certain things - hangups I had about the house being in order and other little things that were really getting in the way. And I really thought that once I worked on those things she would come become more loving and affectionate toward me.
> ...


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

MEM -

I just disagree. To her to threaten to leave our marriage while we are in the middle of counseling would be so counter productive. This would not help her be more secure in her love for me. This would just make her doubt my true love and devotion to her.

I am glad it worked out well for you. But how many times are you or your spouse going to play that card. Marriage is a long term thing and I believe eventually that is going to be damaging. 

I really think I need to communicate my needs more effectively and see how this works. I have not really done this as I have been waiting and waiting for some positive affection or affirmation from her that she really wants me - finds me attractive or desirable or whatever. Yesterday she did something that made me feel as is if I was last on her list kind of thing and it just made me go back into withdrawal mode.

I just could not hardly look at her so avoided her the best I could. Eventually she came and sat by me and asked again what is wrong. Is it me? So I finally said that I am just having a hard time and that I still do not feel wanted etc. She sort of got angry as she stated I thought things were getting better between us. Well I said "How am I supposed to know that?" this went back and forth for awhile. Then she started in on the whole what is it you want me to say? She said she has been nice and pleasant and more approachable and saying nice things etc. I was like what did you ever say? Then she started in with the following:

You want me to say "I want you"? Ok "I want you"? Then she proceeded to say how that this is not really how or when she wanted to say that. I was like well this is not really how I wanted to her something like that either. Then she started in with the whole what kind of person do you want me to be? And I was never like this before and now all of a sudden you who was made this big change which I love wants me to act differently toward you.

I could see where she was coming from but then I told her she is the one who stated she was not sure of her attraction to me and that this had been hard to hear and been getting harder and harder. She knew I had been struggling with this but still no words - no you are handsome...is it really that hard? when I text her a boring message and sign off to my pretty wife she never responds with any complimentary to me. Like I have stated in this thread it just gets old. When I told her how weird it felt when I was kissing her and she just kept taking it all in without kissing on me and toward me at all - she was taken aback as she stated I loved that and that was just me I did not even notice.

She also was angry with me and saying how she is tired of seeing me all depressed. I told her I am not depressed and I have not been acting this way at all other than the last six hours or so. I told her I just don't know what to do when I feel this way and I hate making you feel bad etc. and that is why I just tried to stuff it down and avoid you. Then she said well that is not good. So I said so you wanted me to come tell you this? She appeared stuck.....no she does not want to hear this as to her (in her words) this is a problem she feels like she has to fix and I can tell she hates this feeling and she also does not do well when she feels pressured. Her pause at least helped me to see that she understands my dilemma and why I don't just talk to her.

So at this point I think we need to discuss this directly in counseling as maybe I do need more than she used to offer toward me and maybe this is part of the problem. To her this is something new I think but it is something I have struggled with for years and now it has gone for bad to worse - but for her this has not really been on her radar at all. 

But I really hope with the counselor she will see how hard it is for a spouse to hear a lack of attraction never followed up later by something to put the persons mind at ease. I need to explain that I need more kissing and touching and more sex. I just plain need it to feel connected and that she really cares for me and wants me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm so glad you talked honestly about it. I think it will help a lot. 

Has she read His Needs Her Needs? What about asking her to read it so she will understand more about how each partner 'owes' the other something of what they need; it's just part of marriage. I think now would be a good time to address that.


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## WantsHappiness (Jun 17, 2009)

veryconfusedhusband said:


> MEM -
> 
> I just disagree. To her to threaten to leave our marriage while we are in the middle of counseling would be so counter productive. This would not help her be more secure in her love for me. This would just make her doubt my true love and devotion to her.
> 
> ...


To put this a little more mildly, what MEM is describing is setting boundaries. We need boundaries in all relationships whether they are familial, friendly or romantic in nature. Boundaries are standards of behavior you are willing to accept in each realm. It is reasonable and healthy to have these boundaries. You don’t necessarily have to put it as directly as MEM has however, you are well within your right to say “this is behavior I will not accept in a marriage.” Would you agree that you have this basic right? You might bring up the subject of boundaries with your counselor. 

Communicating your needs goes hand in hand with setting boundaries. You have communicated your need for affection ad nauseum per your wife’s initial reaction yesterday. Yes absolutely; you either need to change the way you’re communicating your needs (get more specific) or try something else entirely (like setting a boundary). Did you try telling her that in the moment when you’re kissing her and she’s enjoying it, to let you know verbally that she is enjoying it? That verbal affirmation goes a long way. 

Do you see the damage you did by avoiding her when you were legitimately upset? That is not effective communication and making her come to you to draw it out of you is the worst thing you can do. When she does or says something that makes you feel bad (as long as it’s appropriate) you need to speak up. Hammering on this idea of “I don’t feel wanted” frankly makes you sound like a little whiny. Trust me, by know she knows that. Tell her specifically what she did that made you feel bad. She is asking you to be specific and all you can say is “I feel bad.” That doesn’t help either one of you. 

My husband, for example, recently told me that when I repeatedly mention his family’s eating habits it offends him. I was planning a dinner for them and found I was extremely restricted (they are meat & potatoes kind of people). As I turned through the pages of my cookbooks I commented on the things in each meal they would not eat. This was totally unnecessary, rude and, as I soon found out, offended him greatly. I was expressing my own frustration not even realizing the impact on him. I had NO CLUE this bothered him (he knows and agrees that they have a restrictive diet) nor what specifically about it was bothersome. It’s not that I can’t mention the eating habits, it’s that when I hammer on them he takes offense. 

One thing your wife might not have a good understanding is a man's basic need to feel appreciated. One of your love languages also seems to be words of affirmation. Once she has a true understanding of these needs (I’d recommend a book but you won’t go for it so bring this up in counseling as well or you can also make specific suggestions) you need to back off and let her appreciate you in her own time. It’s only been a few months in counseling. It was years of damaging behavior that resulted in the current state of your marriage, it could very well take years to repair it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

WantsHappiness said:


> One thing your wife might not have a good understanding is a man's basic need to feel appreciated. One of your love languages also seems to be words of affirmation. Once she has a true understanding of these needs (I’d recommend a book but you won’t go for it so bring this up in counseling as well or you can also make specific suggestions) you need to back off and let her appreciate you in her own time. It’s only been a few months in counseling. It was years of damaging behavior that resulted in the current state of your marriage, it could very well take years to repair it.


 That's exactly why reading HNHN could help her understand what it is you are saying.


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## MR07 (Jul 12, 2010)

I think if you can' work it yourselves. Then it wont work.
:scratchhead:


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Turnera -

My wife has read a few of the different books. She is a psychologist - not clinical. Anyway I DO think you are on to what I have been thinking....I have been focused on her needs and really need her to focus on mine. And I think that book based on the title might be helpful. 

My thought with books or any discussion of my needs was really that needs to come after she acknowledges she has a role in our problems and that she is attracted to me. I guess she is now from what she said yesterday:scratchhead: So wierd....why is damn compliment or acknowledgement of affection so hard. It seems like it is a game she does not want to lose and maybe she feels like I always used to win? Anyway thank you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That is kind of what I was thinking, actually. That 'giving' you what you want makes her lower on the totem pole, and she needs to feel in control.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Update -

Went to counseling appt. Really got frustrated this time. I felt I did not have much to say just kept explaining that it seems that she is not willing (control - who knows what) or wanting to take a step towards me which is causing me to withdraw occasionally. This really was ticking me off as yes after 6 days of acting like everything is normal I do get down and need space. My wife sort of characterized this behavior as happening often lately which of course gives the counselor pause.
The counselor kept asking me well what is it you want. I told them I want to feel wanted I don't want to feel like I am last all the time. Then it was well what would that look like. I kept telling them it could be words, actions, moods I don't know. I explained I know what it feels like when someone is into you and she is not giving me any of those signals. 

Then it broke down into oh you just mean you need sex. I was so pissed. Yes I do need more sex but that is the big picture. I kept saying I dont see why this is so hard to understand. My wife retreated into the whole well that is not really me that is not how I am. I started pointing out that I felt stuff from her before on many occasions. Then she played the whole well I was just trying to keep the peace etc.  So anyway then my wife started saying I feel like it is getting better that I am more receptive to you. Her big example was how one time during the week when I went to kiss her she turned her cheek so I could kiss her lips. I was like WTF - that is you coming to me? Anyway the counselor thought that all sounded logical to her. 

It really was a terrible meeting. The best part for me was near the end when my wife asked me if I wanted to continue counseling - I think she could see my frustration and I am hoping she did not mean something else? Oh god I hope not. I have had these terrible thoughts of divorce and what it would really mean and how awful that would be. It would be so awful as I love her and to hate her would be yuck - I always want the best for her and if we were apart what would I feel? 

I keep telling them this is so hard as I have made some huge changes for my wife (and for me) and it seems that her attraction toward me has gone down. It just is not logical. She is truly happy about how I am more relaxed and pleasant and don't stress over house things and other little things. So why is it so darn hard for her to take a step toward me?

I know some of you reading this have less patience than me and will suggest drastic measures and that because I don't do them she will always be this way and things will not improve. She has told me many times that she needs time as I have made this big change for the better and she just needs time right now - she thinks that now in addition to this change I have become too romantic too loving too whatever - I get her point but seriously I am not chasing her around the house or anything at all. I think she just cannot handle any pressure in her life I have seen it so many times.

Well anyway I am not going to do anything drastic. I need to let her have her time. There will be time later to ask her to read certain books and consider my needs etc. I really love her and she does love me just not how I want to be loved. If I truly love her as much as I believe and say I do than I should be able to afford her more time and if in the end she does not become more of what I want than I will have to find a way to deal with it.

That will not involve leaving or cheating. She is my wife and we have a life and children and they are everything to me. I have to have my children near me - every day. I could not imagine be away from them or her. I just need to be a stronger person I guess.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think at this point it might help you to pull away. Do a 180. That means, find your own life. Find things to do that aren't focused on the marriage. Let her see what it's like when YOU aren't focused on HER. At this point, I can't think of anything else that will have an effect on her. But that's not the main point of 180; it's to help YOU preserve your sanity, lose stress, get to know yourself better, and just have a good time. Go out with the boys. Join a basketball team. Go to the Y. Take a class. Get out of the house.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Update -

The few days after our session were a bit better. I have been keeping busy and that helps. I have been doing my best not to tell her anything nice about her appearance...nothing. As this kind of stuff is driving me crazy that she cannot do it for me. 

Anyway yesterday she walked by and sort of rubbed her hands over my arms. It was really sort of odd but I could tell she was trying to very clearly touch me in a way that I would notice - as I missed the whole "I turned my cheek for you" (that is seriously the lamest thing I have heard and I cannot believe the counselor bit on that). Well I did notice it and really happy to see the effort.

Later in the day she came up to me while I was on computer. I was on FB doing nothing really and she said something about how almost all of my FB friends are women and how that makes her feel jealous. She said this without any anger - she knows there is nothing there as I leave my computer open and I do not send any messages really or anything. It is all about hi have not seen you in awhile what a cute family blah blah etc. Almost all of these girls (if not all) are friends from high school. I had many more female friends than male friends which has always intrigued her. I cannot imagine that this "jealous" feeling has attributed to her very recent efforts toward me. But I think our minds are sometimes controlled by random factors.

So in the early evening she sent me a weird text about if I was hot. A big part of my complaints to her were that I would always say something nice or flirty on an email and she would not respond with anything back (well she used to before counseling and before I became "better and nicer"). In the last few days I stopped completely ever doing that....no pretty wife comments nothing as she seems like she is dead to that. So when she texted that "r u hot?" I was like well I am in an air conditioned car and you know that so are you implying the a/c broke in the building you are in. For a moment I thought she might be flirting but again that did not make sense to me as I have never asked someone her if she was hot....hell I have told her she was lots of times but never asked. Well later on I asked her about it and if the a/c was broken and she just smiled and said no...see I am not good at that stuff. She is actually so good with words and I told her so....but I told her ok I get it thanks and put my hand on hers.

Yes I know guys this seems lame and tame. But hey this is really what I needed an acknowledgement. It seemed like she would not do this lately as if it was pressure and she was going to lose the game or something. I guess I just need to keep having patience and see where this goes.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I think the facebook friends thing may be very big for your wife. Very much bigger than what you can see or understand.

To you it’s trivial/trivia as far as it’s affect on your relationship is concerned but that doesn’t mean it’s the same for your wife. It may be making her feel very insecure. Maybe she’s jealous. Jealous of the time you’re spending with other woman, jealous of how they can chat with you so easily, jealous of their looks. Insecurity and jealousy are two very powerful emotions.

Think about it, you’re communicating with lots of female friends at the same as you’re having problems in your marriage. Why don’t you just drop all communication through facebook for 3 months. Don’t tell your wife what you’ve done. She will notice anyway. When she does, just observe and see if her behaviour towards you changes. If you can’t drop it for 3 months then maybe you have an addiction problem with facebook.

Most of us need affection to feel loved by our partner. Maybe you will get what you want just by dropping facebook for a while.

Bob
PS: A few years back we moved countries and quickly made new "couples" friends. At one time my wife said there're 5 women that fancy me. I hadn't a clue. But I'm pretty certain for one reason or another it made her feel insecure.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And believe me, that is something women ALWAYS notice.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

turnera said:


> And believe me, that is something women ALWAYS notice.


So true. Not a word is spoken, but women “know” just by body language. Women naturally, instinctively put more faith in body language than they ever do with words. It goes back millions of years to the time we were living in caves. One problem is though some woman think men are the same, when most aren’t. Women think they can communicate to men through body language, their behaviour. Unfortunately the messages they send fall mainly on deaf ears. I once read that if a woman is attracted to a man she needs to “send out” her message five times before he notices.

Spending a lot of time chatting to old female friends on facebook. “Ah so that’s where your attention is”. Doesn’t matter about the “words” that go back and forth.

Body language is so very much more “authentic” than words. Body language carries 80% of the “meaning”, words just 20%. Words can be manipulated, much harder thing to do with body language.

Three seconds. One elephant, two elephants, three elephants. A three second look is all it takes for a woman to know you’re interested in her. 30 minutes on facebook? You’re in really big trouble lol.

Bob


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Well at any rate I am pleased she has woken up or something. Not sure what it was or combination of things. The counseling sure felt like a low point. Maybe even though she felt like she had staked her ground and won over the counselor my dedication and love and loyalty to her won her back over. Who knows?

I sort of doubt the FB thing had much to do with it. I do not spend time on FB. I check it here and there like email and have sent a total of 5 communications - all to married women who were friends from years ago. All communication has been the generic nice to see you and family pictures etc.

In the end it does not matter. Hope things keep improving. I love her so much.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Well at any rate I am pleased she has woken up or something. Not sure what it was or combination of things. The counseling sure felt like a low point. Maybe even though she felt like she had staked her ground and won over the counselor my dedication and love and loyalty to her won her back over. Who knows?
> 
> I sort of doubt the FB thing had much to do with it. I do not spend time on FB. I check it here and there like email and have sent a total of 5 communications - all to married women who were friends from years ago. All communication has been the generic nice to see you and family pictures etc.
> 
> In the end it does not matter. Hope things keep improving. I love her so much.


You're competing with the counsellor?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

WAKE UP!

You've a war going on. Wars consist of battles. Battles consist of skirmishes. You think you've won a skirmish? You lost the skirmish. Why? Because you competed with the counsellor.

Wake up. Before it's too late and you lose your wife.

You have denied the affect facebook has on your wife. You just ain't listening.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Not sure what is meant by competing with the counselor but yes it does appear that it is an uphill battle sometimes. I do like her and think she has been really good but she is female and my wife is also a psychologist (not clinical) and they speak the same language. I could also ascertain that she might have been in some type of abusive or ugly marriage earlier in her life. 

So she is very sympathetic to my wifes comments earlier about how mad i used to be etc. and how difficult I was to live with at times. My comments about how she too has some areas she needs to work on and that she is the one who raises her voice at me and always cross examines me is something she is coming to understand but I think is not as sympathetic toward. It seems she believes I established the tension in the house in the past and my wife was just reacting. I believe this is at least partially true - but not 100%.

As far as FB - I leave it open. No secrets at all. I use it very little. My wife is mostly commenting that since I joined about a week ago I have had many friend requests and almost all were female - I did not initiate any. I think it is healthy and normal - and if it makes her a wee bit jealous that is ok as it lets her know that while I am devoted and connected to her that I have a past that included many female friendships - from HS so this is old news. 

This site has been great for me to get ideas out and I have gotten some good feedback. But it does seem people really want to read about a struggle then a fight and then a victor. Or thats it I am done!! kind of stuff. I get it I feel that way sometimes when I read other threads....but you see I love her and it is a battle at times but the only way to truly lose is to make the relationship into a constant state of win/lose that was a pattern of our early marriage.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Not sure what is meant by competing with the counselor but yes it does appear that it is an uphill battle sometimes. I do like her and think she has been really good but she is female and my wife is also a psychologist (not clinical) and they speak the same language. I could also ascertain that she might have been in some type of abusive or ugly marriage earlier in her life.
> 
> So she is very sympathetic to my wifes comments earlier about how mad i used to be etc. and how difficult I was to live with at times. My comments about how she too has some areas she needs to work on and that she is the one who raises her voice at me and always cross examines me is something she is coming to understand but I think is not as sympathetic toward. It seems she believes I established the tension in the house in the past and my wife was just reacting. I believe this is at least partially true - but not 100%.
> 
> ...


That's so very very deep. Bless you Man.

Bob


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Yes I can see that it will take time and I am sure my picture of a perfect marriage is always going to be different from hers. The last few days have been nice. 

It seems like she is trying. Almost coming back to me in a way. But she still seems reluctant to state anything verbally other than I love you. She knows I have really been hung up on her unwillingness to declare attraction to me. We have even had sex recently and it was pretty good. In a way sort of anti-climatic for me as I miss her body so much that I don't know it just almost makes me sad that when we are almost done I am thinking that in my head well it could be a week or more (or who knows) until she kisses me this way, touches me this way, and seems so pleasured by me (she has had intense orgasms lately - none for me - still go figure) After she has hers I just sort of lose focus - really strange - lets don't overanalyze this too much (a little is ok). 

I am just going to have to be patient with her and wait for her to be more verbal with me. It seems so odd that I am dying for her to say something sexy or flirty to me - about me. Never been a needy guy so this is an odd feeling. Plus while i am deeply in love with her and love her body I also just love the beauty of a woman and it would be so easy for to say something sexy to any beautiful woman if we were in a relationship. AGAIN I AM NOT LUSTING AFTER ANY PARTICULAR WOMAN - JUST HER. I guess this is at least partly a guy thing and her attraction connection to me is like the last to join the train. 

Example today I told her that her nose was really cute and I loved it. Her response was I love your warm hugs. - I actually felt bad about stating my attraction to her as this for her seems to make her a bit uncomfortable when she knows I am waiting for a reply. It is hard though. One thing I do know is that I am done mentioning it to her in any way for awhile. 

Not looking forward to next counseling session as I just do not know what to say without being critical of her or sounding whiny. I really just wish I could not talk. It is so hard though as then the counselor will think I am being evasive or retreating etc. But I just don't want to criticize or complain as I think things are improving and talking about areas that need to improve seems to open wounds for her or insecurities or create stress. Any ideas on how to stonewall in a counseling appointment? I am serious here.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I would just state what your vision of a good marriage looks like. And explain how you are not getting it.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Turnera -

That is not something I am going to do anymore for awhile. She knows what I want what I crave but it is not completely happening yet. She has told me and the counselor both she needs time and that I cannot tell her what to feel. So I will just have to have patience which is really hard - plus I also have to understand that sometimes her wants and needs directly conflict with mine and in these areas I hope we can eventually find a compromise.

Ultimately she may never respond to me and fulfill some of my wants/needs as a wife. She will have to make that choice as this will have consequences to our marriage - as I will simply be unable to be everything she wants me to be. Not because I am keeping score but because I am a human being.

Our counselor has explained that we are clearly a committed loving couple that just needs to keep working on our issues to improve our marriage. She has stated that it is very common for a spouse to have periods in which they lose attraction to their spouse - at least to some degree. She added that as long as you love each other you should still be able to be intimate. I guess this is where we are now.

At our last appointment I really let it all out. Not so sure that it had any desired result but my wife and the counselor both know that I am really struggling with the lack of affection and intimacy from my wife. Mostly I made the point that I am really tired of feeling last - as it seems that her willingness to have sex with me usually occurs at practically midnight. This is sort of symptomatic of how I feel her affection for me. It is as if every other project has been completed for the day, every email returned, every other interesting activity - such as completing a film even a bad one will usually be completed before she warms up to me. It just gets old.

Voicing these feelings has really not helped at all. Which has been sort of stunning after listening to her for years talking about both the need for communication. She used to tell me that even if I don't notice something if she feels it than it is real to her so it should be important to me. I too struggled with that one in the past. What is stunning is now she sort of shoots down my description of how/why I feel certain things sort of takes them apart bit by bit to show how they are not valid for some reason or another. This is truly where we are stuck.

Some of her points as to where she thinks some of my feelings are coming do make sense. And her other comments that I cannot make her feel something until she is ready are equally valid. But in the end the effect for me is the same and after a few days more with her my mood shifts from I love her so much to does she really love me or is this it? Is this all she can ever offer me? I wish I had more patience as she has made some steps toward me and progress is being made very slowly. 

I think it would be much simpler if we either did not have children or they were older. I would simply not be around as much and sort of find some other things to occupy my mind for awhile. But that does not work when you have little ones that need constant connection. I cannot say I am going out after work or to the gym be home at 8pm - that might mean I miss the kids for the whole day. That is not even close to ok with me. Or I could take off all Saturday but again this is not ok when you have little ones who are used to seeing me all the time.

I have told her a number of times (no more as it upsets her) that I think if we could just separate for a bit that might help things. Not really sure if this would help the process but maybe help my sanity.

Sorry for the length here but again this is really serving as my online journal and while I do appreciate comments I am just trying to get my thoughts straight.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Update -

Things have really improved. I can see her making small changes and movements toward me. The distance is almost gone. It seems we are really a true couple again.

I am hoping now we can work on issues that have concerned me but it seems the go slowly approach is working best. At the last appointment the counselor stated several times about how much more connected we appear. On the way into the appointment I told my wife that I would like to take a week off and then come back - she did not like this idea and got real defensive. But then the counselor asked if we wanted to make any more appointments at all or just come back in as things come up. So we ended up making an appointment for two weeks out.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Great!

Are you having one hour a week to talk about things, and leaving it the rest of the time? Great way to reduce stress. But it sounds like you have it together anyway. Just practice radical honesty; become best friends again. Good job!


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Well it seems we have hit another roadblock. Or maybe just I have?

I started another thread a few weeks back (Wife not attracted to Me) because I wanted some insight into a major sticking point. Well we sort of cleared that hurdle as she told me finally that she is still attracted and completely in love with me. That was really helpful to hear.

The problem now is that is not translating into physical intimacy and I just plain need it. My patience is wearing thin. I was rejected the other night after several nights in a row of no sex. And these were nights that would have fit as possible nights in her world. Not too tired, no headache, no stress, no this or no that. See for like 4 nights in a row she was wrapped up in some computer/photo program and spent hours and hours on it after kids went to bed. I just fell asleep eventually. 

Finally on the like 5th night she went to bed with me and for the first time she did not have some to do list of things. So I thought great maybe we can have sex -- I love her and just want to be close and need sex -- plus I know she will begin her 8 day period soon and on and on. Well she got tired and just told me I don't want to.....it feels like you have me backed into a corner and I can never say no. Hello? Maybe this is her guilt talking cause she says no all the time. I only ask about 5 times a month and she says no around 3 times.

I got pretty angry about it. I even used some mean words. I am stressed over other issues and sex is one thing that helps and plus I have been craving it for days and days. Any way so I told her I was sorry and that I know that it was not helpful to call her a grandma - see she just reminds me some times as this asexual 90 year old woman. Sorry grandmas out there. 

Of course this was stupid. But we had a good talk and she told me not to ask for sex anymore that it was just too stressful for her. So now the plan is that she will just let me know when she wants to have sex -- I told her that sounded great but she has only asked for sex like twice in 13 years. 

The next day went ok we did not really talk about it much. But she did sort of let slip out that maybe me not asking for it was not a good idea. See now I think she feels some type of pressure to ask me. Whatever I cannot believe it is such a game with her. I told her no I am done asking. Just done.

So a few nice days go by and yesterday we had a great day. All day long we were together etc. etc. We went to bed and watched a movie and she reached out and held my hand type stuff. Well then movie over and she goes to read her book and that is that. Damn I just could not take it I tried to go to sleep but could not. So I went and took a long shower hoping she would get the point. It is such a game to her I think like if we have sex I win. 

I have done all the nice guy stuff for years I have done the go middle approach, I have done the distant and get into yourself stuff. We have talked about it during counseling. She just thinks this is all up to her and I have no say and it appears that her idea of marriage is that sex is a very minor part of it. 

Please do not tell me about some book to read or love languages etc. We are way passed that. It is pretty clear I need more physical intimacy and pretty clear she can't make up her mind - though she loves all the intimacy but just no or little sex.

It sucks because I am so committed and in love and I think she is too so makes me think this prolongs the problem. If we were dating I would just stop calling etc. and it would work like a charm suddenly she would become interested and attracted. But I cannot play that game anymore. Trapped in a marriage. But I do deeply love her so I guess it could be much worse.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Imagine a friend’s dog who every time you see him the dog tries to hump your leg. It’s pretty obvious the dog’s got just one thing on it’s mind. No way am I saying you’re a sex craved dog. But maybe that’s how your wife is seeing you because she has a very much lower drive than you do. Or maybe that’s how you really are, simply because you’re not getting what you need, let alone what you want.

What can you do about it? I believe sex is massively important in a healthy man’s life. It’s very much more than just the “act”. There’s quickies, long tender romantic evenings, experimentation trying out new things in different places. And there’s the spiritual and emotional release and satisfaction, a true sense of bonding at the physical, spiritual, soulful and emotional levels.

You’re not getting those things in your Life? Life is no rehearsal, it’s meant for living and giving and taking, helping and supporting. Getting what we fundamentally need and providing others with what they fundamentally need to be healthy and happy.

You are “more or less” in control of your life. You are the captain of your life, your life’s leader. And at the end of the day it’s the quality of the questions you ask yourself and the decisions that you make which determine both your Life’s health and your Life's happiness.

Bob


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Bob -

I get your sentiment. But is a husband who brings up sex 4-5 times per month with a woman I spend every day with is not exactly like a dog jumping your leg every time. 

I also know she does not think I only want her for sex etc. She just wants it way less and says she would like to want it more but just does not right now. It is like some big game in her head.

This is why my title "Counseling hurting or helping" is so apt. I am thinking of ending our sessions for awhile. The counselor even asked if we wanted to cancel regular sessions and just call if things come up. At the time I thought we should continue but less frequently but now I am thinking it would be best if we stopped. 

The sessions have become like a test every few weeks and she seems to hold back a bit until we go. It is like the counselor is part of our marriage. I made some huge changes for her and she is very happy about it and the things I need are not happening. I think she wants to keep going to help her get through this by either justifying her actions/feelings whatever but for me it is just prolonging us working it out together at this point. 

In control of my life yes. But not so easy when you are in love. I will never leave and I will not cheat. I love her but she will not give me what I need. I am going to do my best to hope she comes around and try try to never say anything hurtful. I truly believe if I did not have so many strings attaching us together she would desire me more. I know I am a good father and I know I am pretty decent looking and I match up to her in so many ways. She loves me....she just sees marriage as different. She wants to hold hands and all that which we do and I love but I need more. I so believe if she was without me there all the time she would want me more.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Hi VCH,
Mentioning sex four to five times a month and you just could be that dog in your wife’s eyes. Not in your eyes but in her eyes. That’s the point I was trying to make. That could be because of a big difference in your values and beliefs or it could be physiological. Your wife just may not need “sex” to feel a fulfilled person.

Another reason could be because she may be harbouring bitterness and resentment against you about a real or imagined offence in the past. And her form of “punishment” may just be the withholding of her body. It could just be that you are “doing the sentence” and that you have no idea that you committed an offence and are therefore being punished.

I was judged and found guilty a number of times in my marriage. I was also sentenced and did my time. I also didn’t have a clue that this was going on.

Maybe at the next meeting with the counsellor just say something like “I feel my wife is bitter and resentful towards me”. Bit like drop a bomb and see what happens. Sometimes we need to take a risk with these things. In your case the status quo most definitely isn’t working.

Bob


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

I have already done that and her response is no that she is not but she is still upset about how I used to behave. And my response has been well you were a big part of that. When I feel like I am the last thing on her list I do get a bit annoyed and edgy. 

Since counseling I have really stopped all those type of behaviors but she still has me last on her list. Oh she will throw me a bone here and there but seriously it is just too frustrating. The counselor has really bought into the idea that my behavior led the problem for my wife. I don't buy it. She started like this right after marriage and I got really nasty about it back then. We would not have sex for a month or more and then I would just want to stay away from her. She was busy with grad school and all stressed out - Oh btw I was working full time and paying all the bills and doing most of the housework. 

I really wish I did not love her sometimes.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

veryconfusedhusband said:


> ... she is still upset about how I used to behave.


VCH, that is what bitterness and resentment is.

Resentment is overcome with forgiveness. Your wife hasn't forgiven you so you are living with a woman who is bitter, resentful and unforgiving.

Took me years and a lot of pain to wake up to it all.

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

People who are bitter and resentful from an event in the past, even many years in the past, feel the same negative strong emotions as though the event happened just yesterday. It is akin to PTSD. They are so used to living with those emotions that they become a part of them, a part of their self identity, their mental picture of who they are. Bitterness and spite are often used interchangeably.

We all get hurt by people we love and people who love us, it’s part of life, part of living. Some of us are capable of forgiving, some simply are not. These latter people turn themselves into “victims” and have a somewhat miserable life and cause misery to others.

Your wife as a "victim" is now victimising you for events that happened in the past. At least that's how I saw it with my wife. Talk about elephants never forget, mine had at the forefront of her mind things that supposedly happened decades in the past.

For what it’s worth the board of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders is considering adding “bitterness” as a personality disorder.

Bob


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Bob -

I think you are on to what is going on but she does not act bitter or resentful. I don't think she means to do this to me. It is like she can't get out of the way of herself. 

She is acting really nice today and I can tell she understands how frustrated I am and she also really appreciates I did not complain or ask for sex or anything. So we shall see most likely she will consent tonight and then in a week I will be right back with my thoughts again. I just wish she could take a more active role in this aspect of our lives. It is all me -- and no I cannot just wait her out I have tried that.

Women - Don't you like to have sex with your husband who you say you are in love with and attracted to? Don't orgasms feel good? Do you think it is ok to only have sex when you want it and not when your partner wants it? Is it ok to deny sex for weeks at a time and expect him to be fine?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Bob -
> 
> I think you are on to what is going on but she does not act bitter or resentful. I don't think she means to do this to me. It is like she can't get out of the way of herself.
> 
> ...


My wife “smiled sweetly” at me all the way through my sentence and punishment which sometimes went on for years. She never did “man up” and sit down and tell me what was wrong. The only time it ever came out was when she’d got angry about something else. This could be years, sometimes decades after the supposed offence.

It’s not what they “say” that’s important here. It’s what they do. But your wife is saying she is still upset, translation = bitter and resentful, about things you did in the past and you know she is withholding sex = punishing you. This latter is only true if at one time in the past the sex side of your life has been “good enough” for you.

So it seems your wife is bitter and resentful about things that happened in the past and she is punishing you by withholding sex.

What can you do? You have already modified your behaviour to the level that your wife has told she is happy and content with. So there’s no more work for you to do there.

What more can you do? I don’t think there is anything else you can do. It is now up to your wife to reciprocate and to forgive you for your past mistakes, let go of the past and move on to a better “present and future”. To get into a deeper and more understanding relationship.

But some people just prefer to be “victims” and they stay that way all their lives.

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

VCH,
I was with my wife for 42 years. During that time she blamed me for every issue that came up between us. She never conceded she’d made a mistake or accept any responsibility.

We’ve been separated now for near 9 months. Now I have just seen this from her “Yes, I've made mistakes... life didn't come with instructions”. This is the very first time in all those years she has conceded she made mistakes.

But take a look at the sentiment behind the words. What I see is she’s still blaming, this time it’s “life” who she’s blaming so she still is not accepting responsibility for her actions. There is no remorse there, in fact the statement is so far from being remorseful it’s the opposite. There is no recognition of the “impact” of her mistakes on me and she most certainly is not seeking any form of forgiveness for her mistakes.

In other words she is still playing the role of a “victim”, just that this time round it’s “life’s” fault.

Bob


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## cma62 (Jul 31, 2010)

hi am recently new to this forum and have been following your thread. It seems to me that your wife is not as happy as she's telling you she is. You seemed to have bent over backwards to concede to her wishes and make her feel special and loved, therefore any woman that had a man go to such lengths for them would make a conscious effort to reciprocate. She might be feeling ambiguous about the relationship but doesn't have the guts to come clean with you, just incase the decision she makes is the wrong one and she realizes she should have made more of an effort to keep the marriage going.Your wife is holding you in limbo. I get that as a guy you want more sex than her it happens in a lot of marriages and we all take one for the team so to speak. She doesn't even seem to be doing that for you which to me would make me question her love for you. Are there any mental health issues going on with her ? As a woman i see both points of view but i'm not seeing hers clearly.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

cma62 said:


> hi am recently new to this forum and have been following your thread. It seems to me that your wife is not as happy as she's telling you she is. You seemed to have bent over backwards to concede to her wishes and make her feel special and loved, therefore any woman that had a man go to such lengths for them would make a conscious effort to reciprocate. She might be feeling ambiguous about the relationship but doesn't have the guts to come clean with you, just incase the decision she makes is the wrong one and she realizes she should have made more of an effort to keep the marriage going.Your wife is holding you in limbo. I get that as a guy you want more sex than her it happens in a lot of marriages and we all take one for the team so to speak. She doesn't even seem to be doing that for you which to me would make me question her love for you. Are there any mental health issues going on with her ? As a woman i see both points of view but i'm not seeing hers clearly.


Yep.

Bob


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Update -

We did have sex last night and it was great for both as usual. We shall see if I have to wait another week or three until next time. 

cma - no she is not have any mental health issues. But I am sure that her version of this thread might be a bit different not that I am not 100% honest here but her perspective is just different and I think most of it stems from her belief that a woman should never have sex unless she wants to. Which I agree with but wish she could put some effort in to get there. She keeps saying in counseling how she appreciates me, loves me all that but I cannot make her feel something she does not feel -- I am talking about the desire for sex. Our counselor has not been much help here as she wants us get there by ourselves I think - but one time she did mention that couples who love each other have sex all the time without having some intense passionate desire for it.

She is a strong and very smart woman. She is a psychologist and I think she has outsmarted herself.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sadly some things in marriage have nothing to do with who is right and who is wrong. I can assure you there have been plenty of times my W has been clearly wrong and not inclined to admit it. At that point it has nothing to do with logic and everything to do with the "power balance" in the marriage. 

While I would say she is "more powerful" in general, once I am riled up it is hard to get me to concede the field. 

She simply doesn't respect your feelings - that simple. And until you find a way to command that respect - you are in a bad place. 





veryconfusedhusband said:


> Update -
> 
> We did have sex last night and it was great for both as usual. We shall see if I have to wait another week or three until next time.
> 
> ...


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

No MEM I really do not think it is about respect. I think she just thinks that I need to love her for who she is and what she can be BUT the problem is that I too need her to love me for me and I need a woman who will engage me physically and flirt a bit - Hell I am not even forty yet so I still think I am twenty. (I bet I will still feel the same at 60 or 70 but you get my point

We are inching along and I think in the long run my dedication and total devotion to her might be a bit of drag on this process but in the end might even help if that makes sense.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

So you have to love her for "who she is" but she doesn't have to love you for who "you are"? 

And THAT is exactly my point. Lack of power balance = bad outcome. This is not about who is right - you are both right so you should compromise. But she has overpowered you so she doesn't have to compromise. 

FWIW - We DO compromise. We picked just about the midpoint between her ideal frequency and mine. 

On any given night if she does NOT want to - we don't. On any given night if I really want to we DO. 

Worst case if she does not want to and I do, we connect the next night. Neither of us feels slighted. 

Clearly your W lacks desire for you. If it were ME - I would focus on that. 

FYI: My W DID lose her desire for me for about a year. It was hell. We fought about sex - not because she wouldn't do it with me - because it was so fuvking obvious she didn't want to. 

But she told me why from the start. Eventually I got off my stubborn high horse and fixed ME and the heat returned. 

And this isn't about "you used to be mean to me" that argument gets zero weight with me. We live in the here and now. 




veryconfusedhusband said:


> No MEM I really do not think it is about respect. I think she just thinks that I need to love her for who she is and what she can be BUT the problem is that I too need her to love me for me and I need a woman who will engage me physically and flirt a bit - Hell I am not even forty yet so I still think I am twenty. (I bet I will still feel the same at 60 or 70 but you get my point
> 
> We are inching along and I think in the long run my dedication and total devotion to her might be a bit of drag on this process but in the end might even help if that makes sense.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

To care more about your happiness than her own - and thus WANT to give you more SF, to please you - something needs to change in how you guys operate. Has she read His Needs Her Needs? Have you?


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Update -

We had a counseling session today and it went better than I expected. As a couple counseling has helped us deal with some conflict and especially issues my wife was concerned about and now I was really hoping to discuss the lack of sexual intimacy. My wife wanted to talk about this too as she says that all the other things which used to bother her about me are indeed gone but that she feels like now I am more focused and frustrated by the lack of sex. Which is indeed true as I used to hide my frustration better as I knew she was often mad at me over other things and so I figured once those other things were removed our sex life would improve - (that was a few months ago). 

My wife also told the counselor it seems like I am always asking for sex and she cannot say no. This is such a hard one for me to swallow as I ask maybe 5 times a month and she says yes generally twice. I guess she wants to say no for the whole month? 

The counselor then went on to ask does my wife ever initiate. Well maybe less than 5 times total in 12 years of marriage. So then she started asking my wife about sexual history questions and problems in the home as a child - if sex was seen as a bad thing etc. From there we talked about my wife's solution in which I am never to ask for sex again and then maybe she would feel the desire and want to more. 

From there the counselor tried to figure out if it is how I ask for sex. Like is it how or when he asks? no and no - she finally got it when I told her it is like Dr. Suess - Green Eggs and Ham - It does not matter when, where, or why the answer is almost always no. My wife concurred this is indeed the case. 
From that my wife explained how she feels like she can never say no at this point I am just getting worried that the the counselor was not going to endorse my wife's idea that I just never ask again. Thank god as my wife explained that she thought after a few months she might start wanting it more. 

The counselor basically suggested that we need to spend more time together in which my wife does not feel pressure for sex and that the idea of me not asking ever was really a good idea as it just sets me up to fail. This was not a surprise but just the way the counselor talked to us and kept trying to get at why my wife did not want to have sex I think helped me out a bit as if it is not all on me. 

This is probably weird for some people to read about. I know if I was in my mid 20s (not late 30s) and unmarried I would scream RUN RUN if I heard this story. But we are truly in love and I do not have any reason at all to believe she is not faithful. In fact I am positive she is not as we are together a lot and she is also with the kids at home quite a bit. 

I really doubt we are going to resolve this completely but I just hope to improve this area of our lives. 

No - Turnera we have not read any books together. I do appreciate the suggestions of titles and maybe after we complete counseling soon (hopefully) we will. But I really do nto want to throw more ideas and variables at the problem.


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