# Are we striving for the wrong things?



## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

Do you ever just feel like a hamster on a motorized wheel?









It just seems like this system we live so demands that we put in our 50 hours a week, 2 hours of commuting, crap food, crap sex...pills to put us to sleep, coffee to keep us awake.

We strive and strive and strive...because of this idea of what we think we want/need in terms of career/validation/acceptance...and then when we achieve that, we go for the symbols of that achievement...greater luxuries. nicer clothes, nicer car, nicer home. But at the same time, we grow more distant from our family, our wives. The office coworker starts looking more attractive. The wife is drifting away emotionally and sexually. The kids are on the internet and cell phone all of the time...don't even know how to connect with two distant parents that work all of the time.

We have become the soulless wage earner.

And once we are dedicated to this sort of lifestyle...can we stop? No, the bills need to be paid, mortgage comes every month, Sally needs braces or she'll die a social pariah, Billy needs a new school uniform and is looking at that private college, the pool heater went out, etc. Pretty soon, we find that a whole economic system seems to revolve solely around our paycheck...hands ready to grab their portion the second you get that direct deposit. And I haven't even mentioned credit cards.

When did we say that this was okay? Is this a life a man grows up wanting, denying his wild nature and thirst for adventure and challenge...only for those desires to be lured by counterfeit promises of sex and belonging if we drive a certain car, have a certain namebadge, have a certain woman hanging on our arm while plugged into a system of scripted goal-setting, scripted team-building...and some ridiculously skewed sense of priorities?? I just read a magazine, touting itself as a men's adventure and travel resource, meant to inspire all of the sleeping explorers out there, but all it was was advertising, selling adventure and fulfillment at a ridiculous pricetag...because God-forbid we take our family camping without space-foil lined sleeping bags, ergonomic collapsible chair/tent, $200 hiking shoes, laser-guided fire starter, solar-powered stove/heater/short-wave radio/GPS/tv and vibrator! 

Men are dying unhappy, unfulfilled, impotent, and exhausted.

The jobs and life we pursue are empty calories. The women we choose (not all, I am generalizing...not indicting all women) often demand that we meet their "need" of having visual, outward cues of our redeeming value...and if we don't keep juggling all the balls, keeping this insanity in play, then she may drift away...disappointed that her husband lacked forward momentum. Often it is a Catch-22, she demands the family-centric quality and quantity but also wants the comforts and conspicuous display of a successful home and a husband that she won't feel embarrassed around. 

Just what the hell happened?

Okay, some of us have figured it out found a right balance. Some men may even say "Yeah, I deal with that, but on the weekend, or on my days off I got hobbies...I have found a means to express myself" But how much of our hobbies are actually "escapes" from chronic stress, unexpressed depression, and a nagging wife? What will give out first? Our health? Our marriage? Our sanity? 

How about all of the above?

I think it is okay in this day and age to apply brake pressure. To simplify. To sell things that seemed okay, but now just feel like added weight. The kids don't swim in the pool anymore. The extra $$ you make for that job you agreed to commute...is all eaten up in takeout, guilty splurges to appease neglected kids. The garage is filled with things gathering dust. Set boundaries with job. Set boundaries with family. Re-sort priorities...God first (if that is something you go for), then family, then your sanity, then your job.

"Work your fingers to the bone...what do you get? Bony fingers!"

Bony Fingers


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## lost soul (May 20, 2009)

Maybe Mick Dodge really does have it figured out.


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

I'm more a fan of Salad Fingers than bony fingers.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

MLC? 
Joking aside, this was akin to my speech to poor SO about a week ago....


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Is that your life? Sounds awful, thankfully mine is nothing like this.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

FormerSelf said:


> Do you ever just feel like a hamster on a motorized wheel?
> Bony Fingers


Feeling as you describe and recognizing it is the first step to change. You know it is wrong and that it's not what a human life was meant to experience. But you should also realize that not everyone lives like this, nor is it necessary.

What is truly wrong, though, is believing that there is no way to go from there to how you want it to be. Transformation takes courage. I bet you have some ideas on how to change, but they involve risk and that's holding you back.

Look at it this way. If you don't make the changes you know you can and should make, to claim your life for yourself, there is failure, 100%. The other path, even through trying your best, is a 100% success. 

Either way, at the end of your days, you will die. Will you die knowing you lived your own life, or will you die blaming a wasted life on a construction of madness created by a chaos of rules, regulations and fears? 

Remember Alice and the house of cards. The world is going to be exactly what you think it is. You need to change your thinking and perception to see opportunity rather than restrictions. 

The constructs you live in were created by humans. You are a human. Therefore, you have the capacity to change the construct. Not all of it, but the part you're responsible for.

If something doesn't feel right, then stop endorsing it, or you become part of the problem, and you'll have to live with it, and yourself.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The more you make the deeper you are in the above scenario....


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Something that contributes to perpetuating the hamster wheel is inflation.

We struggle with the balance too.

Many times I've talked of ways to simplify.

I could just about live in a tent.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I guess it all depends on ones perspective. I'm the sole bread winner in my family but I wouldn't consider myself soulless. As long as my efforts are appreciated by my wife and kids I'm good with it. I am actually happy that I am in a position to do things for them that I never dreamed I'd be able to do. I would definitely feel the way you do if my family took me for granted, and my kids were spoiled and ungrateful.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I agree RH. Family attitude has a lot to do with it.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

What you described is what I see in people, give or take a little.

That's certainly not me, and never has been. I work my job and come home. I relax or do odd job on the weekends, and the same goes for my summers off. I just never have participated in the rat race; as another poster wrote; however, I could almost live in a tent. I'm the type of person that as long as I have a roof, bed, vehicle, clothes, and food, I'm good; none of it has to be fancy.

For me to put in great effort to have stuff would seem pointless. I believe that most middle class people I see will complain about high gas prices, and how the economy is poor, but we no longer work for our needs, that is met fairly easily these days. We work for what we want. 

I guess my life is more laid back because I don't want a lot. I enjoy the simple things in life.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I'm going to give you a little different story than southbound. I have worked hard all my life until the last few years. I have given up the idea of ever having anything I want. I pray I get what I need to survive. Yes, it's partly my fault and partly the system. In any case, that's not really what is bothering you, is it?

I do not suggest you drop out of life as I have. It's not good for you. What I suggest is that you reevaluate what you need to be happy. You need a certain income, a certain retirement, a certain amount of time doing things that make you feel like the work week was worth the effort, a certain amount of giving and receiving. 

You need to evaluate your goals and boundaries. You need to reset them and strive toward what you want and not what society expects. I think you will find that much of it actually does align with society. What does not align with your goals or give you personal growth, satisfaction and happiness is what you might want to change. It doesn't mean to drop out of the world.

I no longer have a cell phone. It hasn't really affected me. Of course, I can't afford one, but that's neither here nor there. 

What was so attractive about days gone by? It was simpler in goals, as you seem to imply. It was simpler because there weren't as many choices. It was simpler because there weren't as many expectations. It was simpler because many things were assumed. In some ways, it was better. In others it was not. 

When you can, get out and do some things you've never done, but align with your morals, character, and beliefs. Give life a try and live for yourself instead of everyone else. This is core and has to be done. Truly, we cannot face the end with anyone at our side. We face it alone. While here, we can only make the best of the talent we have, the opportunities we are presented with, and the choices we make. 

Simplifying can be as easy as shutting the phone off. Putting it on charge and going out to experience life by having conversations with some older folks and asking questions. You'll be surprised how different each sees our world. Experience life in a simple way and find out what you want, then go for it. Don't give up on life. 

We don't need many things we use today. They put distance between us rather than making us closer. Get out and explore. You may find it's not such a scary place. Some of it's in your head.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

All the replies in this thread have been beautiful and helpful for more people than just the OP.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I agree 2nt, community has been VERY good for us. Its what keeps me from becoming too isolated. I believe my desire to isolate was driven by woundedness and self protection and that is probably a layer here for FS, which I totally identify.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I have everything I could possibly want but it has been a struggle. I will be curious to see how the young generations feel when faced with the same financial constraints we had to face. 

The happiest years of my life were my grad school days (ms degree) when I was getting paid $10k a year plus tuition and I was happy. My older girl will repeat the experiment this fall. While I was elated to be in a Deep South college town she's not quite as excited to do the same in a Midwest college town. I will be curious to see what she makes out of it.

The key to winning the rat race is not joining it.


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## kokonatsu (Feb 22, 2013)

I think it also depends on what you are passionate about. If your work and your passions are closely aligned, then it's not the hamster wheel situation you describe. 

It also reminds me of the story of the Mexican Fisherman: 



> An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.
> 
> The Mexican replied, “only a little while. The American then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs. The American then asked, “but what do you do with the rest of your time?”
> 
> ...


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

john117 said:


> I have everything I could possibly want but it has been a struggle. I will be curious to see how the young generations feel when faced with the same financial constraints we had to face.
> 
> The happiest years of my life were my grad school days (ms degree) when I was getting paid $10k a year plus tuition and I was happy. My older girl will repeat the experiment this fall. While I was elated to be in a Deep South college town she's not quite as excited to do the same in a Midwest college town. I will be curious to see what she makes out of it.
> 
> The key to winning the rat race is not joining it.


I am going back to grad school in the Midwest. I found that going to the Appalachians has been more exciting for me.

I do agree with you that the amount of money one makes does not make one happy. You had a comment earlier in the thread which resonated with me.

My father is a lawyer because his father wanted him to be. He calls the job and promotions "the golden handcuffs". He makes more and more but they trap him more and more.

I believe I am younger than you. I must honestly say that depression hit hard for a while when faced with some of the financial constraints I have faced. Now I choose to see them as crucibles. Putting me through the fire to become a better person who does not attach self-worth to the amount I make.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Looking back, the good ole days were not so good but it was more natural for us. So much effort was put into just surviving. Basic needs like food, shelter, heat, and medicine were a struggle. Even so, there was still the common knowledge that too many days or too many hours per day diminished what their survival ability. Maybe that's part of the problem. We can work ourselves into diminished ability and not realize it. Our forefathers and foremothers didn't have that luxury (curse).

Today though many of us could sell our big house for a smaller one; could avoid replacing our aging cars with new models; could turn off the data plans on our phones; could stop paying for 300 channels of TV. We are our own victims. We work hard to have more things and we think happiness will be one of our rewards but its not. We just have more stuff. I'm guilty of running the rat race myself.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Meh, I enjoy my work, most of the time. Besides the more I make, the more my daughter can inherit. You can still find a good work/life balance but sometimes you need to compromise.

I compromised in early marriage, I chose to work 2 full-time jobs in different industries to maximise my income for a few years, and once I developed the skills and experience necessary I seized the opportunity to manage, direct and own using a rather transferable skillset.

If you don't want to be a wage slave, then don't be a wage slave. Live the life that others won't, so that in the future you can live the life that others can't - as the saying goes.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> My father is a lawyer because his father wanted him to be. He calls the job and promotions "the golden handcuffs". He makes more and more but they trap him more and more.


The thing about those golden handcuffs is that you can pick the lock but it takes an exit strategy and patience.


> I must honestly say that depression hit hard for a while when faced with some of the financial constraints I have faced. Now I choose to see them as crucibles. Putting me through the fire to become a better person who does not attach self-worth to the amount I make.


Maybe you'll have an advantage then. It's easy to take today's wants but once you have them they become viewed as needs.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

Thundarr said:


> The thing about those golden handcuffs is that you can pick the lock but it takes an exit strategy and patience.
> 
> Maybe you'll have an advantage then. It's easy to take today's wants but once you have them they become viewed as needs.


Your first paragraph is something I never thought to think after that line. He has repeated it for many years but has never taken action. I think he sees it now as his sacrifice. He has a wife and children. He didn't want to lower what he made because he felt that he was responsible for how it affected us. I have a nearly 10 year younger sister. Going through college now. I feel that even after she is gone he doesn't feel that he can do that to his wife.

I know that as a child I would have not had my happiness affected if my father made 100,000 less than what he did. In fact, there was a time period in which he was working 6 out of 7 days a week. Bought a mansion more than a house. Then he lost his job for 2 years. That house became a prison.

I struggle with that feeling of not being able to take away the money from a SO. I could live quite comfortable with just the necessities and a bit of money to pursue interests that I have. However, my SO is very much interested in much more expensive interests such as nice clothes, watches and cars. He likes cars not just because they are something that looks nice but he likes to work on them. I want to help him pursue his dream and his interests but I can't help but feel a struggle when he is talking about the 100,000 dollar sports car. 

We have talked about it. He views money as a means to an end not the end. I have expressed concern about having a car own us instead of us owning a car. He understands and I think we are seeing each other's viewpoints more and more. However, if there were to ever be a deal breaker in our relationship (we are engaged, not married) then it would be our different ideas of money.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Thundarr,

Do you mean we have more time to ruminate on what we find annoying in our partners today and seeking out ways they can change to meet our ever growing needs? 

What seems impossible today, was a challenge met head on and surmounted or accepted and lived with, if it truly was impossible. 

Goals were different for many. Today, the greatest portion of the population has much much more money than back then. So common today, they can't relate to real problems or how to work on them together. Opportunity has killed the need for community, families working toward a common goal, spouses working and living as one. 

Some of that is the same today in segments of the population. Those are the one's most attacked for what seems is misunderstanding and misconceptions. It truly is a shame because what is being destroyed is the good along with the bad. 

There were some segments of society that were not good for women, like forcing pregnant women to quit, so they didn't start a project and have to stay home due to some normal complications or the chance that their work might harm the baby. That is an individual choice, after all, and women should not be forced to do anything. Some of that has been changed due to advancements in medicine and healthcare.

Like SAHP today, society figured that the bond a mother and child have cannot be replaced by a father and child. The baby grew inside the mother and heard, ate and lived some of the emotions the mother did. For me, that makes sense, but I don't limit my thoughts to, only a mother being able to do the work needed or understanding how to care for a child. 

Abuse was, in percentage, similar to today. It just was not handled the same. The consequences weren't harsh enough, but women were blamed in a similar frequency as today within uneducated parts of society. Advancements in education and psychological understanding have made vast improvements in awareness. Laws have been changed to reflect some of that. 

Those are the improvements of today. They don't, in and of themselves, make life more difficult or complicated. They make it better. 

There are many other things, which grew out of those advancements in science and technology, that make society more difficult. In my opinion, one can choose what they deem appropriate for them and what they do not, and live by those. Of course, I don't mean to harm anyone in the process by any means. 

Why does it always have to go this route? Is everyone trying to justify, conform, appease? Why? Are we all the ignorant of how much, what we do to others affects our lives and theirs? Was there anything many families did in the distant past that helped folks understand that concept, that isn't a part of society today? Maybe we don't understand what love is anymore? Maybe we have not been taught to respect all life? Maybe all of that was taught before? 

So, FS, how do you deal with all of this in light of what you are going through? Go out and live. Talk to older folks who lived through stuff. Talk to the ones in their eighties. Those folks are going fast. Talk to all ages. Hear them and just think. Don't try to correct them. Don't accept their abuse, when you find it, but learn from their lives. Find out what you need to help you to make choices for your life. Just don't forget to live and have fun. Don't forget to make friends when you find those who you think you align with and who have good character. 

My parents lived through the great depression. I didn't just read about it. I lived with the changes they had to make when they were children. I was lucky that they were unique. Dad's family was poor. Mum's was upper middle class. I got two perspectives. It was difficult for them to understand each other. Can you imagine just how difficult it was for me to understand? I'm still learning. We learn all our lives. 

Heck, mum's parents would be 114 and 113 this year. Dad's would be 130 and 119 this year. I have an idea what it was like from those who lived it. It's not the same as what you read.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Heck, mum's parents would be 114 and 113 this year. Dad's would be 130 and 119 this year. I have an idea what it was like from those who lived it. It's not the same as what you read.


I agree with your whole post and this jumped at me the most. 

It never is the same as you read. And we forget they were individuals.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

I see in a lot of these posts the connection between money and unhappiness, or sacrifice of happiness. I think this is a false dichotomy. 

If you are living life according to your principles, you will have more money for the things you need and enjoy, and also more security in that money, and in yourself. 

And it's not always true that money and things bring trouble. You can then afford to employ people who might not otherwise have jobs, and treat them with the same respect that you've treated yourself. 

Money may bring social responsibility, vs. trouble. 

It's easy to say it brings trouble, if the act of getting it brings trouble, but what if you get it from following a true path, and it brings nice things to your life and the lives of others? 

Money is not evil, it does not always have bad things attached to it. That's the making of the person with the money, not the money.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I agree with your whole post and this jumped at me the most.
> 
> It never is the same as you read. And we forget they were individuals.


I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right. Some things are clearly wrong, but I'm saying it's all perspective and interpretation coming from what those goals are that the researcher has in mind. I think some of the research is based in previous research which was goal oriented. I think we sometimes forget that.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> I see in a lot of these posts the connection between money and unhappiness, or sacrifice of happiness. I think this is a false dichotomy.
> 
> If you are living life according to your principles, you will have more money for the things you need and enjoy, and also more security in that money, and in yourself.
> 
> ...


Very astute. My SO's boss is ridiculously rich.

And yet the most humble person I have met. When he listens to you, he really listens to you. You don't feel that anything else is on his mind. 

I think if money is a means to an end which is expressing your inner self it is beautiful and helpful. I think remembering this gives up the hold that money has on us.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right. Some things are clearly wrong, but I'm saying it's all perspective and interpretation coming from what those goals are that the researcher has in mind. I think some of the research is based in previous research which was goal oriented. I think we sometimes forget that.


Hahah I was involved in the research world for longer than I wished and you make a point that I think is lost upon a majority of people who aren't in the research world.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> I see in a lot of these posts the connection between money and unhappiness, or sacrifice of happiness. I think this is a false dichotomy.
> 
> If you are living life according to your principles, you will have more money for the things you need and enjoy, and also more security in that money, and in yourself.
> 
> ...


And that's a perspective I didn't think about. Money provides choices. I think the more choices one has, the more perceived freedom one has. The more one is capable of exploring. Like you say, more power through education and money, comes with greater responsibility.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

Holland said:


> Is that your life? Sounds awful, thankfully mine is nothing like this.


It was a generalisation...so thankfully, this has not entirely been my life.

Good responses everyone!

I think where I actually personally struggled, was not being properly reared to handle money and setting boundaries. So when I married my impulsive STBXW, I was being torn away from what I felt I wanted in my life and chained to paying bills...and then playing years and years of _catch up_.

So now that my marriage is ending, after bankruptcy, after cancer...I am starting over with the full intent of not ever falling into a trap. And yes, I agree...if we want a certain life...we work for it very hard and that there will always be obligations (such is our curse). And it doesn't even have to be a curse...as we can turn our lives around and have quite a positive impact in the lives of others with our time and resources!

I was just tired of working hard and having the fruit of it robbed before I could even store it away for the future AND basically being told what I did wasn't good enough. I feel like my wife was expecting I pull a rabbit out of my a** and erase all of the consequences of her discontent...so when that wasn't happening, and she actually got the career she wanted, she wanted to upgrade. Part of me is bummed because I fell short in providing what she felt she needed, but I also feel pretty relieved that I don't have to deal with her disapproval anymore. That was my hamster wheel.

I know we all have our hamster wheels...some are created from wrong turns or self-imposed. Other hamster wheels are just matter-of-life responsibilities that we just have to suck-it-up. I guess my hope is that no one gets stuck on a hamster wheel unnecessarily, getting stuck in a soul-sucking endeavor.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

FormerSelf said:


> It was a generalisation...so thankfully, this has not entirely been my life.
> 
> Good responses everyone!
> 
> ...


I can't help you with this part I underlined. I am as interested as you are in other's answers. My inability to find the answers for me, have caused me to drop out of life. I don't see a way to change what will be, no matter what I attempt. I wish you all the best, FS. I really do. I will curtail my input to where I think I might be able to help you. I will be paying attention to others responses, in the hope that I might be able to adapt some of what is recommended to my own life. Do not let my decisions set an example for you. We are, all different and lived unique lives. Keep a lip upper stiff, ah, I mean a stiff upper lip.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

FormerSelf said:


> It was a generalisation...so thankfully, this has not entirely been my life.
> 
> Good responses everyone!
> 
> ...


I have not gone through your experience. But I think being stuck on the hamster wheel as our SO's and family are not willing to have us go off of it for their benefit is so common.

And then you got slapped in the face as she was not even faithful to the marriage and you are realizing how much you sacrificed of yourself for someone who did not care.

The one truly positive thing is that you are getting off of it NOW.

But that does not take away the grief of all the previous years.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Thundarr,
> Do you mean we have more time to ruminate on what we find annoying in our partners today and seeking out ways they can change to meet our ever growing needs?


Yes it seems we have more time to ruminate that and on just about everything else too. Not only to think about it but to discuss and ponder it on forums as well. I liked your whole post. Lot's of questions and thoughts I don't know the answers to either. But certainly life used to be good and bad and life still is good and bad. IMO one of the hurdles we face today is that our nature is still catching up to the life styles. A century ago on a Saturday I'd likely be out feeding some livestock and repairing a fence or something today instead of setting here idle pecking on a keyboard. I don't know about you but being outside and active just makes me feel better than setting in the house all day. Think I'll go do something .


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I don't quite know exactly when simply being content or complacent became negative connotations. Seems like 'strive' is a word people like to use. 'Strive to be your best.'

The important consideration there is, what are you striving for and what constitutes 'my best'?

Set goals !

Achieve them and then set some more!

What's the next big thing to set your sights on, and that makes you better than you are today!

For perspective, my big thing is to take a nap. It will make me better than I am right now, because I'll be rested.

I like what I do for work. That certainly helps. 

Had a house. Had a garden. Had gadgets. Had cable.

Discovered I don't need those things to be content.

I do however, need to get laid on the regular to remain content.

If you find contentment in the rat race, that's fine too.

Not up to me to define who's contentment is valid and whose isn't.


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## ricky15100 (Oct 23, 2013)

I have to say I've been thinking the same thing lately, and call me a conspiracy theorist, but I think its a society by design, created to stop people thinking thus producing an army of obedient zombies who's only purpose in life is to keep the ultra rich in position enabling them to have a life with more free time than they know what to do with , a Life that is almost the polar opposite of the 99% of people


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

ricky15100 said:


> I have to say I've been thinking the same thing lately, and call me a conspiracy theorist, but I think its a society by design, created to stop people thinking thus producing an army of obedient zombies who's only purpose in life is to keep the ultra rich in position enabling them to have a life with more free time than they know what to do with , a Life that is almost the polar opposite of the 99% of people


Every society has required obedience in order to function. 

However, that has not stopped human creativity and the human spirit.

If humanity can be found in even the worst experiences (genocide, abuse, etc) then we can overcome in our mind, body and soul freedom from subsuming our identity into obedience.

Erich Fromm has a wonderful book "Escape from Freedom" which talks about freedom in modern society.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Thundarr said:


> Looking back, the good ole days were not so good but it was more natural for us. So much effort was put into just surviving. Basic needs like food, shelter, heat, and medicine were a struggle. Even so, there was still the common knowledge that too many days or too many hours per day diminished what their survival ability. Maybe that's part of the problem. We can work ourselves into diminished ability and not realize it. Our forefathers and foremothers didn't have that luxury (curse).
> 
> Today though many of us could sell our big house for a smaller one; could avoid replacing our aging cars with new models; could turn off the data plans on our phones; could stop paying for 300 channels of TV. We are our own victims. We work hard to have more things and we think happiness will be one of our rewards but its not. We just have more stuff. I'm guilty of running the rat race myself.


True. I feel like, since we don't have to work so hard to simply survive like our grandparents, why not sit back and enjoy it? 



Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> I see in a lot of these posts the connection between money and unhappiness, or sacrifice of happiness. I think this is a false dichotomy.
> 
> If you are living life according to your principles, you will have more money for the things you need and enjoy, and also more security in that money, and in yourself.
> 
> ...


Sure, i don't think money is evil, or that people are headed for sadness if they have money, but the chase for money is just not worth it to me. The rat race isn't worth it to me, if it is to some people, that's fine, it's nothing to me. 

Some people just seem to have a constant burn to be doing something, so I guess they figure might as well be working all the time. One's peers often find it strange that one doesn't participate in that lifestyle.

I have a Master's and a white collar job, so you can imagine I work with people who love "stuff" and the rat race. Knowing that I could care less often causes strange looks.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

FormerSelf said:


> We strive and strive and strive...because of this idea of what we think we want/need in terms of career/validation/acceptance...and then when we achieve that, we go for the symbols of that achievement...greater luxuries. nicer clothes, nicer car, nicer home. But at the same time, we grow more distant from our family, our wives. The office coworker starts looking more attractive. The wife is drifting away emotionally and sexually. The kids are on the internet and cell phone all of the time...don't even know how to connect with two distant parents that work all of the time.
> 
> We have become the soulless wage earner.


Very nice statement of the problem! The career/validation/acceptance treadmill is taught and reinforced at so many levels from parents,Schools and our workplaces. Society has it wrong and you have learned this.




FormerSelf said:


> Set boundaries with job. Set boundaries with family. Re-sort priorities...God first (if that is something you go for), then family, then your sanity, then your job.


This to me is the definition of being a man along with 2ntnuf quote below. Defining the order of priorities in life is crucial. Without this you can't decide when do to do what you really need.




2ntnuf said:


> I do not suggest you drop out of life as I have. It's not good for you. What I suggest is that you reevaluate what you need to be happy. You need a certain income, a certain retirement, a certain amount of time doing things that make you feel like the work week was worth the effort, a certain amount of giving and receiving.*
> 
> You need to evaluate your goals and boundaries. You need to reset them and strive toward what you want and not what society expects. I think you will find that much of it actually does align with society. What does not align with your goals or give you personal growth, satisfaction and happiness is what you might want to change. It doesn't mean to drop out of the world.


As stated above you need to know what your goals are. Take this point in your life to redefine yourself through your goals. Through the attainment of your goals you will find fulfillment and happiness. 

It is a never ending process. Through a process of redefining yourself you can learn from goals that can't be archived and create new goals that can be achieved.

I am a successful failure. My initial choice of a wife didn't work out. It taught me what I did and didn't want from a marriage and wife. My initial career didn't pan out either. I wanted to be a physicist but I was just not good enough with math. I figured out that what I thought was cool about physics was being a detective of nature. I then became a detective and problem solver with computers. I found a way to get the same buzz. I got married and eventually fell into the neglect you mention in the OP. while solving a financial issue I took it to far and lost track of the important things. I eventually realized that I had lost touch with a segment of myself that defined me that my wife was attracted towards. I redefined myself again. Part of that redefinition you touch on in the OP. I needed to do outdoor things and live with adventure not watch other people's lives through books, computers or tv. To do this I had to find willing people and for the most part they were much younger than myself. This caused people to say I was having an MLC because I drew boundaries at work socialized with young people and lived life on my terms.

My grad school days were fulfilling and some of the better days of my life also. I met this fellow back then who fed his soul in part with international ski trips. He was able to do it on a grad student stipend. He did it by living in his office or hot bedding with other students and removing almost all unnecessary expenditures from his life. He was viewed as a kook by some but I saw him as a self defined man who met his goals.

So I ignored the criticism of my lifestyle like he did and achieved validation not from others but from the attainment of my goals and my family.

I'm not alone. It turns out that 80% of the team I work with switched careers and redefined themselves as well. We made a kick a$$ team because we all brought the experiences of our previous unrelated jobs. This diversity and exposure to multiple different philosophy's enabled us to engineer a system from which many of us found fulfillment and validation.

It's about balance with life goals, work and family. My new years resolution for 2014 was to no longer accept lunch time meetings at work and use that time for exercise. I just simply said no to important people. Finally people stopped asking for lunch meetings and scheduled them at other times. This aligns with my quote by Laird Hamilton below. I'm not going to not live because of a fear of getting fired. I set boundaries at work, with my hobbies and marriage to achieve balance and fulfillment in all aspects of my life. This to me defines a man.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> And that's a perspective I didn't think about. Money provides choices. I think the more choices one has, the more perceived freedom one has. The more one is capable of exploring. Like you say, more power through education and money, comes with greater responsibility.



Whoa now! You are drawing a link between money and power.
An education and power, and education and money.

True power is authentic, it comes from within and from being aligned with natural forces and living honestly, with or without wealth, and with or without education. 

We need to untangle all of these assumptions about money, education, wealth and power that are being made.

And if one is living honestly, responsibility is not really an extra burden, it's generally already the status quo.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

kokonatsu said:


> I think it also depends on what you are passionate about. If your work and your passions are closely aligned, then it's not the hamster wheel situation you describe.
> 
> It also reminds me of the story of the Mexican Fisherman:


Your story about the Mexican fisherman is profound. During my finance phase I leaned about investing and stock and company valuation. Starting during the Seventies business schools started to shift from fundamental product or service value to value from growth of stock price. So in the Eighties MBAs summarized the role of an executive to maximize stock price. This is a terrible shift away from intrinsic value and goals. 

Furthermore corporate values are seeping into society. Company loyalty and the like are business tools to maximize stock price. They are not really beneficial to us as people. Being loyal to the company really encourages us to neglect other priorities in favor of the company keeping us out of balance. 

Very nice example. The fisherman knows what's important in his life and that is the real goal.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I have not gone through your experience. But I think being stuck on the hamster wheel as our SO's and family are not willing to have us go off of it for their benefit is so common.
> 
> And then you got slapped in the face as she was not even faithful to the marriage and you are realizing how much you sacrificed of yourself for someone who did not care.
> 
> ...


What she said. Giving too much of yourself is a mistake, but it's only one you can forgive yourself for, not to blame on others. We create the monsters that feed off of us, and create our own prisons by what we truly believe about how we should be valued, by whom and under what conditions. I have seen people who consider themselves honest devalue, demean and discredit themselves in pursuit of holding onto families who have got used to a certain lifestyle. Instead of saying enough is enough, and drawing constraints, they end up in a living h*ll where they sacrifice not only themselves but other people in order to 'feed the beast' they helped to grow. When they end up in a court of law or near-dead, they are essentially alone and solely responsible. Not everyone gets out alive...

Essentially, if you don't get out of the rat race and you think you should, you will suffer. Maybe you don't notice it, but slowly, surely, physically, your body's underpinnings are disintegrating. You alone will pay the price. Without a job, health insurance will change. So good medical care might not even be an option.

We have a project going to investigate suicide by medical/health neglect. I guess also it's easier to tell a dependent SO you need time off to recuperate from open heart surgery than to say you're sick of being a human doormat and need to actually sleep.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

A wise teacher once said to me, "what's the worst that could happen? They won't remember it at your funeral."


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It helps to have a plan. I busted my rear end for a decade in college so I could have it easy in the workplace and indeed I was right. I can get away with lots of things . Just find an obscure area to focus on, grow your skills and have fun. It worked. 

Not for my wife. She spent a decade in college as well and while she does cool stuff as well she works a lot more hours than I do...


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

john117 said:


> It helps to have a plan. I busted my rear end for a decade in college so I could have it easy in the workplace and indeed I was right. I can get away with lots of things . Just find an obscure area to focus on, grow your skills and have fun. It worked.
> 
> Not for my wife. She spent a decade in college as well and while she does cool stuff as well she works a lot more hours than I do...


Ah, I spent quite enjoyable time in college and schools not busting my a** at all but having a great experience. At the time it was what I wanted to do or what was the best opportunity/path of least resistance. I never really had a plan except a vague one. I remember many great weekends in Las Vegas, San Diego, coming back home to NH, etc. Recently spent time at movies, skiing, etc. while earning degree. A difficult degree too. It required intense periods of thought and critical thinking, but not what I'd consider busting a** or anything I didn't want to do. 

Now I kind of work but not in a workplace, just in my own home environment, and doing all the cool things I wanted to do when I was a kid. 

How did that happen? No clue. No plan. And not a trust fund baby either, quite the opposite, functional orphan by abandonment of unfit parents. 

I dropped out of high school. I have a fake diploma given to me by the principal. It has a gold honor seal on it. :rofl: Cool.

This whole busting one's a** to ensure positive outcome and the easy/good life is a fallacy. It can happen just by having some fun along the way. And not at the expense of foregoing contribution to the public good.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Life is a struggle for survival. That's true for every plant, every creature, and it's true for people. Our business is to do what is best for the survival of the next generation. None of us are the center of the universe and in a few short years each of us will be gone. Nobody will give a rat's behind whether you had fun or got in touch with your inner child or thoroughly searched your soul, hugged a tree, or whatever else you believe you might be missing out on. It isn't pointless at all. We are here because our ancestors worked and survived. If you do the same, generations from now, your DNA will still be lingering around in some future human's tissue and their job will be to survive and pass it on.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Great topic!
I think the key to not getting caught up in the rat race boils down to .....

Living within your means...
A) if you don't have the cash don't buy it.
B)do you really need it.
C)will it enrich you life or detract from it.

Not caring if your keeping up with society.
Society is on its way down. If you try keeping up with it you too will be dragged down !

Being true to thyn own self.
Which would entail knowing yourself. And hold yourself responsible for making decision based on what you need.

Avoiding the sheep! Or being a sheep. Just because media says everybody is doing it doesn't mean everybody is doing it.

Raising your children to your standards!!!!!!!and teaching them that there is just as much ugly in the world as good.....might even say more ugly than good!

Some things we teach our kids today as a society today are just plain false and gives them the false sense of reality.

You can be whatever you want if you try hard enough
WRONG! Some are just not going to be smart enough to be doctors,lawyers,astronauts,

Some are not going to be athletic enough to play professional sports
Some are not going to be caring or brave enough to be a nurse,police officer

This everybody gets a trophy nobody should be offended ideology we have accepted as politically correct and are following is going to be a big part of the down fall!


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

This is one of the best threads I've read here in some time. 

Batman and I were talking about goals and what that means... back in the day he used to set 5-year plans for himself. I never did. He got to the point where he stopped doing that as he discovered life often has it's own unpredictable rhythm. Now, if anything, we both tend to think in terms of annual priorities. I wouldn't even use the word 'goal' as that indicates an end point. Instead, it's about what is important to us, how we wish to live, and our priorities ...in that moment, even. Do we feel these things make us 'better' people? No. We do feel it helps us become closer to living more congruently. And what that means can change also.

The _why_ that inspires us, the _why_ that decides these are priorities to us, is personal. It's not going to be the same from person to person. Maybe there's even contentment in not needing to know the _why_.

Life is movement. I do think we need to move forward in some ways. As 2nt so eloquently expressed, to continue to be engaged in life. What that means to me may well be different to the next person.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If one somehow focuses on different aspects of their field while pursuing undergrad, graduate, and doctoral work then busting their rear end is pretty mandatory. Then to make things more entertaining work on a field that requires even more knowledge that you don't currently have. Story of my life


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

OP you had a NLE (near life experience). It's like a NDE (near death experience) only suckier and without the special effects.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

FormerSelf said:


> Do you ever just feel like a hamster on a motorized wheel?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I can't say any of this has ever happened in our marriage.. I was never one who cared about a fancy lifestyle or if the MAN was pursuing higher status, was in the top wage earners... in fact I always felt the opposite that being married to a man like that, he'd be too busy for a family.. and his wife.. and I frowned on it even ...I was just being realistic.. 

In my worldview... so long as we could afford to live within our means, our vehicles run, they get us to work, where we need to go...your house is a HOME.. you keep it clean but it doesn't have to have all new furnishings, the latest appliances (I have yet to buy one of those expensive new washing machines... so many friends had problems, expensive repairs! NO thank you !)... you buy as you find GOOD deals..I also research consumer reviews before I buy !

Also $$ set aside for what I call a "torrential downpour" , to take a couple family vacations every year / day trips... a couple romantic excursions.... if you got FRIENDS / FAMILY....what else do you need...that's as good as it gets...keeps us happy...like pigs in mudd...

I even get Giddy going to the Flea Market.. we have one in our area that's the largerst Tri-state, has 1,600 venders...some travel hours to set up...we make a day of it.. It's FUN!...I get excited when I find good deals!



FormerSelf said:


> When did we say that this was okay? Is this a life a man grows up wanting, denying his wild nature and thirst for adventure and challenge...*only for those desires to be lured by counterfeit promises of sex and belonging if we drive a certain car,* have a certain namebadge, have a certain woman hanging on our arm while plugged into a system of scripted goal-setting, scripted team-building...and some ridiculously skewed sense of priorities??


 Our oldest car is a 1991 .. we should be embarrassed but we don't care!! Had that car for 10 yrs now, cost $2,000, put it on my credit card..... Old faithful... we keep a nice paint job on it...I've never been one to care about a new car, in fact I think that's the biggest money waster ever.... we just took our '97 Suburban off the road & bought a '99 !! We're moving up in the world.. 

Husband & I started out with a blueprint in hand to how we HOPED our future would unfold.. we were both hard workers willing to do whatever it took to achieve our dreams, even if we weren't college educated (he did take a little computer college , got a certificate).....

We agreed at least 3 kids .... living in the country somewhere..we used to spend free time driving around looking at country houses... . we didn't care if it was a Fixer -upper we were do it yourselfers .. we prayed, always looking for his to get a better paying job... he did about 7 yrs in... Health insurance was a must.. and life insurance .... I used to read many books on financial planning & being frugal.. this was our lifestyle.. 

It's not something that's ever bothered me.. My H will never make anything close to 6 figures a year.. but we've done very well... We feel Rich in what has been important to us...

I can't say we've ever felt on that Hamster wheel.. I think because we DO "take time" to enjoy the simple things in life....the time we spend with each other.. the kids, cheering them on in their pursuits, One's left the nest...another going off to college this year.. another next....it's an exciting time...

We're past mid life now... we feel we've climbed our mountain... it's like standing on the top with the wind blowing in our hair. ..it's a beautiful site.....seeing how it all came together.. we achieved what we set out to do... so NOW, it's more about our children ... being there to Cheer them on...as they begin their own lives.. it's a little bittersweet to be going DOWN that mountain now..kinda like "the Circle of life" in the Lion King... I bawled watching that movie near the end.. 

But that's what we're here for.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Deejo said:


> I don't quite know exactly when simply being content or complacent became negative connotations. Seems like 'strive' is a word people like to use. 'Strive to be your best.'
> 
> The important consideration there is, what are you striving for and what constitutes 'my best'?


I've noticed that myself. It's terrible if somebody is satisfied with buying a different vehicle that is a few years old. If they would applied themselves and "strive" to be their best, they could probably have a new one, and their life would be so much richer for it.

And God forbid if we have an "average" child in school. That's a no no these days. We need to get them mentally prepared to participate in the rat race.


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## Aspydad (Oct 17, 2013)

FormerSelf,

Great topic!! 

I guess its called the "Rat Race" for a reason isn't it? Amazing how I fell for this as well as I always told myself I would not. I grew up lower - middle class (at least that's what my parents told me we were) - we had no extra money - 900 square foot three bedroom - one bath house. But, those years were the happiest in my life!! Even today, I long for that simple life style. My want when I retire is to buy one of those small homes in my old neighborhood and live there in the summers. My challenge though is to convince my wife to go along with this dream.

Do I regret working like I have for the past 28 years since college? Absolutely not. I have been very lucky with regards to my work - loved my job, made good money, and have created security for my wife and I - 52 years old and I could retire if I wanted to. The only mistake my wife and I made was thinking that this would make us happy - IT DID NOT!! Five years ago my marriage was almost lost and the cause was us becoming out of balance due to my (or our?)? misconception that as long as I did my job and bring home the bacon - and my wife did hers - take care of me, kids, and house - we would be Happy.

The out of balance was this - me working 50-60 hours a week when home and spending 130 plus nights away in hotels all over the world. Then - my middle age crisis logic was - while I am young I am going to become the best golfer that I can - joined the fancy country club (yes my wife and kids could use this as well) and developed a game that was very good - I actually traveled and competed in amateur tournaments. My oldest daughter used this opportunity to become a golfer to pay for most of her education. But, my wife and my other kids did not like this - as I was obsessed with my job and my game and NOT her. I was actually shocked - isn't this type of life what success is all about? Big house, country club life, enough money to do whatever you want - clothes, etc.?? Wife sure did not think so - she had herself convinced that is was just a matter of time before I left her - she was miserable and I did not even see it - I was just too busy going 1000 miles per hour with this idea that my wife and I did not have to work at out marriage because we LOVE EACH OTHER!! HOW WRONG I WAS!!

I will not get into everything we did to recover or how we crashed - but one of the things that saved us was coming up with a vision of what type of life would make us happy together- we made a plan and we worked the plan. I took a demotion in my company, we moved, built a smaller home (not as small as I wanted because its hard as hell to downsize once you accumulate a bunch of crap - we went from 5200 square feet down to 4,000 - was aiming for 2800), she went back to school and became a school teacher (did a carrier changer program), dropped the country club (I went from 70 rounds a year down to 5), I took up fishing so as to do something that my son likes, I am only out of town maybe 15 nights a year - and my wife and I have gotten to know each other again - we go on dates now. Moving forward as our kids leave us - we are going to continue to downsize and get rid of out accumulated crap that really just adds stress - very hard to do though.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Don't buy into the need for a 4000 sq ft house with 4 bathrooms each larger that the average apt in NYC. We didn't. It's not worth the toll that a big house would take on the main breadwinner in our family and the 2ndary one either. 

To hell with what people think.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

4000? Let's see 6000 and 7 bathrooms 

Put 5995 sq ft between you and your irritating spouse and life is quite good actually...


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

We've mentioned past generations in another thread; I'm curious, what decade did this rat-race of life become common among the average person. Wasn't there a time when not having to work so much was a sign of success? In other words, a person's job was good enough that instead of having to work on Saturday, I get to kick back with the kids and have a backyard cookout and spend some time in the hammock. 

What generation decided they needed to suck every dime out of the air that they possibly could, or they weren't reaching their full potential and were missing out on life?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

southbound said:


> What generation decided they needed to suck every dime out of the air that they possibly could, or they weren't reaching their full potential and were missing out on life?


In my opinion it ramped up in the U.S. in the 80s. That seems to be when corporate success became more glamorized. Maybe it's my age and that's only when I noticed it though.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

southbound said:


> We've mentioned past generations in another thread; I'm curious, what decade did this rat-race of life become common among the average person. Wasn't there a time when not having to work so much was a sign of success? In other words, a person's job was good enough that instead of having to work on Saturday, I get to kick back with the kids and have a backyard cookout and spend some time in the hammock.
> 
> What generation decided they needed to suck every dime out of the air that they possibly could, or they weren't reaching their full potential and were missing out on life?


Up until some time in the early 1900's most people who had to work for a living worked 6 days a week, 16 hours a day.

If they did not work for someone else, they put that kind of hours into working their farm.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Up until some time in the early 1900's most people who had to work for a living worked 6 days a week, 16 hours a day.
> 
> If they did not work for someone else, they put that kind of hours into working their farm.


IMO the big difference is the type of work hours we put in. Many of us have physically idle yet mentally stressful hours now. If I didn't exercise almost daily I would be nuts. I'm not sure that we all handle that as well as we did active hours. But not doubt life used to be tough.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Up until some time in the early 1900's most people who had to work for a living worked 6 days a week, 16 hours a day.
> 
> If they did not work for someone else, they put that kind of hours into working their farm.


true, but they were working those hours out of necessity; if they didn't work that way, food might not have been on the table. At some point, however, I believe technology and such got better, and life got a bit easier, maybe in the 1950s. At that point, people could relax a little more and meet their needs easier. Those are the hammock days i was talking about.

Somewhere along the line, however, we decided that we should "strive" to make every dime we could, so the rat race began.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I think it was after WWII. The raise of consumerism. Everybody got a radio and TV that allowed businesses to reach consumers and whip up false demand.


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