# This is the end - I believe



## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Hello 

I came to this board about 7 months ago.
I explained my situation and got support as well as heat from the board. All of this led to more thinking and considration.

I wanted to leave but I couldn't. Hence I tried with full effort to mend the brokn pieces. This was end of October and by end of December things looked worse again.

I learned a lot about myself during the last months with the help of my councellor. 

Now I will leave. I hope I can do this next week but I am not so sure if I have the strength. I will miss my sons so badly that it brings tears to my eyes already. I love my wife but our values and ideas are so different that there is no way. 

Our marriage had been working for years because I gave in on everything and compensated this deficit in work. Now that I claim my share of wishes she says "she will have to become a different person to make me happy". I believe she is right and I also know that this will not work because I could do this for quite some time. But at what cost? You cannot deny who you are and what you value, wish for and want.

We fight a lot about little stuff, we cannot even get along a single day without arguing.
I cannot convincedd her to at least accept that I have reasons for acting the way I act. I know that she does not like some things that I do or how I reply. I don't expect her to like it, but I expect her to understand that I have reasons for acting the way I do. But if you do something that she wouldn't then it cannot be correct, it is definitely wrong and there is no will to understand the other side (me).

She does not see the point in visiting MC. She said that I "dragged" her there twice and the guy was just on my side all the time. I assure you, he was not. I don't know how to improve anything against this attitude. Compassion and understanding will not lead anywhere because then I would have to deny my own personality again.

I cannot keep living like this.

I don''t want to leave her but I don't want to stay either. It is too painful.

All my reletives and the two friends I could keep despite her trying everything to deny me friends all tell me I should leave. I know it is the most senisble course of action (I don't want to say "right thing" because it is not right).

I will start a new job in three months 200 miles away. I hope that oonce things calm down I will see my boys again and that they will come visit me once in a while.
I also hope that she will accept my financial support and stay in the house until the kids are in university.

I am so sad.

My boys are sitting in there rooms, doors closed, headphones on playing computer. They suffer from the tension between their parents. 

I hope that when I leave they will at least find peace at home again. I hope that with time they will be willing to do more with me again and that they will understand. 

But most of all I hope that I will find the strength to finally end the suffering for my wife and for myself. We are not good for each other anymore.

I am crying writing this. Because afterr 16 years it is just unbelievably sad.

Regards

asdfjkl


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## DanielleBennett (Oct 9, 2015)

Of course leaving your wife and boys will hurt, you spent 16 years with her and your boys won’t be around you all of the time. But you are doing what you feel is right. You aren’t doing it to be a jerk, you aren’t trying to set your wife up for failure, you are making yourself a priority as well and you deserve to be happy too. I don’t understand why your wife thinks that the MC is there to take sides, that is not their job. Their job is to listen to both sides of the story, tell both parties what they are doing right and wrong and to also tell them what they can do to help the marriage. They aren’t allowed to take sides. Sounds like she was being defensive and was backed in a corner, even if it was the tiniest thing. I know someone that does that…like if you were to tell her that she wasn’t nice to someone she would immediately get defensive, lash out and then go on and on and proceed to tell you why she was wasn’t nice and why her action is justified. Even if it is the littlest thing! She feels so entitled it drives me crazy. But enough of that. It is really nice that you are still going to financially support the household until the kids go to college and it will give your wife time to figure out things. It will be hard and will hurt. You will also miss your wife and the good in her. But ultimately, you need to do what makes you happy too and if you aren’t happy in the home then leaving is the best bet.


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Thank you.


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Yesterday I moved out.
It was the saddest thing I have ever done. I cried a lot.

I have rented a room for three weks for a start. My therapist told me that this way I can soften the blow to my wife by saying it is only temporary.

My boys were badly shaken, my daughter (24) told me that she understands my move and that if anything may help us at all - a separation would be it.

After I left the house I was mentally exhausted. I did not feel anything anymore and was just wasted.

About three hours later the sadness kicked back in really bad.
I once again started questioning myself 
- why did you do it?
- how could you do this to your wife?
- how can you do this to your children?
- could I have done more?
- did I do enough?
- is it really that bad?
etc. etc. etc.

The thing that calmed me were my parents. You know, all other people I spoke to - the councellor and two friends only know my (subjective) version. My parents have seen my family twice a year so they have their own accounts.

They told me 
- yes it is as bad as you thought
- yes it is the only thing
- yes I did enough
My parents also confirm distorted view on things, inability to assess own behaviour, always blaming others for everything, alwas denying that she did anything wrong. etc. etc.

I had to remind me that when I was in tears this Monday night, she asked me what is wrong: I said I am so sad because we constantly fight.

Her reply was: "Well, now you see what you never backing down has led us to. Maybe you should start to work on being more understanding" and then, for almost an hour, she explained to me why I have ruined everything. No sign of understanding that she might also play a role in this. 

this showed me once and for all: She will not truly work on herself. It will always be me or some circumstances, but she will never accept responsibility for her own ill chosen words or actions.

Another example: She cannot stand that I commuicate with people outside of our family (meaning my wife and the three kids) and people at work in a strict business context.
I had taken a picutre of some easter eggs to send it to my sister. My wife went nuclear "You always have to photograph everything. If you do this, I can send your seister the pictures of you naked from my phone!"
I mean, we are talking about stupid easter eggs sent to my sisters phone some 350 miles away!

That is the kind of control she wants to excert. And I cannot accept that any more.

My account of today's events and my feelings will show you two further major areas where the problems lies.

Today I was back twice. 
First for "breakfast" with the kids and my wife at noon and then for the big weekend shopping, dinner and watching a movie I had promised to my wife earlier this week.

The shopping went okay - except for a fight on the way to and on the way back.
Dinner was nice, my youngest son even helped me prepare it.

Having become very observant of my feelings over the last months I noticed again what was wrong.

I did not want to wathc the movie with my wife and sleep with her afeterwards as she suggested and hoped.
But I knew that cancelling the video would be a terrible blow to her. So i stayed and watched it with her. Against my clearly felt wish to do something else.
I also slept with her very intensely even though I did not want to. Same reason. If I had denied her that pleasure, I would have again broken her heart.

Long story short: I have clearly seen one of the major reasons why I must leave:

I cannot deny her anything because I cannot stant her being sad.
--> I do things that I do not want
--> I am unhappy with myself for being too weak and I am unhappy because I am not doing what I want.

I cannot break this behaviour. I have tried for months now but the negative reactions if I deny something are so fierce (in my perception) that I cannot stand them.

The other thing is the huge injustice. 
I have cancelled a vacation because my job was at risk. In the end I lost the job (but that problem has actually been solved today  ).
My wife is still blaming me and complaining that I denied her the vacation she was craving for. I offered her to go on vacation alone or with the kids but without me. But she says she cannot do any vacation or trip without me. I cannot handle this injustice and this emotional blackmail anymore.

What do you think?

Regards

asdfjkl


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Read up

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LE..._Guy.pdf/RK=0/RS=xngYEiIHZmuygi4dRG6JldGxDgo-

We all have a chance to make our lives what we want. It's totally on you.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

There are stories out there of people who have been incarcerated, for years...and when they are paroled, they are sad. And it's hard for us to imagine that...you have a chance of freedom over prison, yet someone would be sad at the idea of freedom? But, for some people...the prison became familiar, even though it didn't represent freedom, and was an unhealthy place to be in. Living outside of prison created a fear ...a fear of the unknown. Sometimes, the fear of the unknown is worse than the pain of staying in the familiar unhappy place we've allowed ourselves to be in. This can be true for anything, not just bad relationships. Your story reminds me of those incarcerated men I've read about, who are afraid of the unknown...afraid what freedom will bring them. 

Prayers for you to get through this difficult time. ((hug))


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Have you considered that she may have a personality disorder? Read up on BPD and see what you think.


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Thank you for the encouragements.

I don't think I am afraid of the future. I just cannot hurt her.
I just woke up and read her texts that she wants me to come back for the children.
I feel so guilty, so bad, so unbelievably mean to have left two days ago.

I sit here crying thinking of my sons. I just hope they will understand some day. And I hope that they will allow me to be part of their lives going forward.

It helps writing my feelings into a diary. I tend to forget all the bad things and hold on to the good moments. But I must not forget what the problems are. Otherwise I run the risk of going back even though I don't want to and most importantly, because I should not go back.

I will go to the movies today with my wife (I had promised a few days back). My older son will come with us, I am so glad about this!
The younger one has already seen the movie and does not come along. I told him that this saddens me but I am proud of him because in such a difficult moment he spoke up and said what he wants - or in this case does not want. I told him that knowing and voicing what you want is much more imporant than he thinks. That makes me proud of him. It really does. But I miss him.

In respect to personality disorder. I am pretty sure that she is close to or actually qualifies for borderline. I read up on the diagnoses on the Internet and figured she qulifies for four or five of the DSM V criteria.

But that makes my feeling of guit even worse because should I not be there to support her? Is it not on me to help her with it? For better or worse? Is that not what I had promised some 16 years ago?
The only comforting thought is that she denies all professional help. I cannot blame myself that she does not want to see a therapist to talk about her problem. She only tells me "I am fine, I know what I want. I don't need/want a therapist"
I know I cannot thorw my life away as I have kind of done over the years in order to make her happy most of the time. But knowing the intellectual truth and feeling the pain are two very distinctifly different things.

Thank you again for listening to me. It helps so much!

Thank you

asdfjkl


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

not just mentally exhausted, but emotional exhausted.

yes it's hard and terrible thing to go through. Your kids will survive it's just one of those things in their life and life goes on, if anything this allows you to act how you believe is right with them without having to worry about your partner's parenting limitations. However if your partner isn't able to meet you partway to get a working treaty/compromise that fills everyone's needs (if not their wants) then what is the point of a "marriage"?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Your leaving your kids with this person!

Is she like this with your kids?

Move back and try for at least 50\50 custody.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

No DO NOT move back! You will never leave! Stop abusing yourself with the guilt, the woman is a straight up, mean b!tch! Stop doing family time with her! You will never get free that way. You moved out for a reason, so take your kids to do things without her, start making moves to divorce, and fight for at least 50/50 custody of your kids. They and you all deserve better, so stop with the guilt and find your ballz! DO NOT GO BACK!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The best thing you can do for your children is to divorce and give them a home with ONE stable, loving, non-vindictive parent, so that they can see ONE home that has a healthy, safe lifestyle. That way, they at least have a chance to grow up not being as BSC as her. 

And no, you do NOT owe her you staying just because she has a PD. You owe your KIDS that divorce for THEIR future. And also so that you can come out of this and start to regain your personhood that has been lost over the years. Your kids need you to be healthy, happy, and stable so you can give that to them. 

Not seeing them every day is the hard part, but from what I've read here, you will soon come to see that it's not that bad, that your kids won't notice it all that much, that they'll come to enjoy being with you...and may even come to ask if they can live with you full time.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Where in your marriage vows did you promise to let your wife browbeat the hell out of you?

Stand by her when she treats you like a whipped pup? Your wife is not the only one with issues here.

This problem did not develope overnight. Did you completely give up your manhood the day you got married? What kind of example do you think you're giving to your kids?

You need to take ownership of your problems and fix them or your next relationship if you have one may be the same.


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Thank you for the encouragements as well as the kicks in the ass 

I thiink that by now I have a fairly good idea of what my problems are.
The major one is my avoidance of conflict which leads to me doing things that I do not want. This is not healthy.
The other part is my wife who is trying to control everything because she is always afraid of loosing me - up until recently this fear had been without reason, now it is a valid one. 

I talked with her today about my problems again and she was happy I opened up. She was very understanding and told me that she will help me overcome it. The thing is I do not believe this in my heart. I believe that she wants to try but I also believe that she will not change inside so it will not work. She even suggested to go to MC again. She also says she now understands why I have left for now. She can now live with the seperation and will wait for me because she now understands my problem.

I am not sure if this is just trying to stall the inevatible or if it is genuine. I feel so torn between leaving because I believe that the two of us are not a healthy match. On the other hand, I love her and hurting her by leaving is such a stressful thought to me. Jeez, it's really terrible. I am so afraid of making the biggest mistake of my life - or I am once again trying to avoid the ultimate conflict.

A strong indication that I should leave: A book provided by my councellor had a relationship status query. One question was "Would you marry your spouse again?" My immidiate and absolutely truly honestly felt reaction was and still is a big red neon sign reading NO!! This - I think - tells me that I am on the right track. But how can one be sure? 

I have set in motion the change of my salary-account. If I keep this change, by end of April she will know for sure that I will leave. But I have doubts again. So I am now thinking of revoking the change and buying me more time.

And here the vicious circle starts because I also think that the above mentioned behaviour/thought is a prime example of me avoiding conflict. Or is it a sign that I actually believe there is still a valid chance to mend things?
My parents would strongly disagree. And intellectually I agree with them more than I do not agree with this assessment. Still, it's a mess.

My next appointment with my councellor is on Thursday. I hope to get some insight into my true feelings in regards to this.

Honestly, before recently I never understood why people remain in an unhealthy rellationship. Now I know that from the outside things look much clearer than from the inside. I learned the hard way not to judge people too soon. Sometimes you are trapped in your own world and without outside inervention, you will never see the true picture.

One positive note though: My older son who never likes to leave the house and do something readily agreed to go to Munich 2 1/2 hrs drive) next Saturday and visit an engineering museum and have some fun-time with me alone. That is a real ray of hope that even if I may make a mistake by leaving my wife, my kids will start to see the world and realize there is something worth seeing outside their home. I think this alone would be worth all the trouble. 

Thanks for reading through all this.

I really appreciate the harsh words from above. The phrasing is a bit mean but I understand that sometimes one has to resort to a very clear communication in order to make sure the message is understood as intended 

Regards

asdfjkl


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

Please read married mans sex life primer. You really need it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

asdfjkl said:


> I am pretty sure that she is close to or actually qualifies for borderline.... I don't think I am afraid of the future. I just cannot hurt her.


ASD, if your W has strong BPD traits as you believe, you likely will continue to hurt her if you choose to stay with her. Your enabling behavior is harmful to her because it destroys all the opportunities she has of being forced to confront her own issues and to learn how to manage them. As long as you continue to protect her from suffering the logical consequences of her own bad decisions and bad behavior, you are preventing her from confronting her own issues. It therefore is important that a BPDer be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her own behavior so she has an incentive to learn emotional skills, i.e., to grow up emotionally.



> That makes my feeling of guilt even worse because should I not be there to support her?


If she is an untreated BPDer who will not stay in therapy, your presence in the home likely will hurt her, not support her. The reason is that, as long as you are present, it will be impossible for you to avoid triggering a BPDer's two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. Significantly, those two fears lie at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means that, as you back away from triggering one fear, you necessarily are drawing closer to triggering the other. This is why, with BPDers, you will always find yourself in a lose/lose situation that likely is harming her.

Hence, as you draw close to a BPDer to assure her of your love and devotion, you start triggering her engulfment fear -- making her feel controlled and suffocated by you. Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space and relief from the engulfment, you will start triggering her abandonment fear. Sadly, if she has strong BPD traits, there is no midpoints position (between "too close" and "too far away") where you can safely stand to avoid triggering both fears. I know only because I wasted 15 years hunting for that Goldilocks position -- only to find that it simply does not exist.



> But knowing the intellectual truth and feeling the pain are two very distinctly different things.


Yes, absolutely, ASD. Listening to the logical adult in our heads is very difficult to do, so please don't beat yourself up if you need time to pull it off. The reason is that our inner child (i.e., the intuitive, emotional part of our mind) makes the vast majority of our important decisions. I was 50 years old before I understood that simple notion. And it took me 12 years to do it.

What happened was that, for 12 years, I took my bipolar foster son to a weekly family group meeting with the psychologist who was treating him. Whenever the psychologist challenged me on something, I always had an elaborate well-thought-out explanation for doing whatever I had chosen to do. Never mind that what I had chosen was not working with my foster son and never mind that I kept repeating the same pattern year after year.

The psychologist was always greatly amused by my explanations. He would laugh and point out, in his kindly fashion, that my elaborate rationalizations could not disguise the fact that my inner child -- not my adult -- was calling all the shots, making nearly all the decisions. In any contest between the adult and child, he claimed, the child would almost always win. But I just could not swallow this concept.

Yet, after twelve years of his gentle rebukes, it dawned on me one night -- right as I was about to drift into sleep -- why he had to be right. My inner child, I suddenly realized, is the sole judge of what is fun and what is not fun -- and judge of whom I love and do not love. That decision is all powerful. The adult part of my mind will nearly always conclude that it makes no sense -- indeed, would be preposterous -- to do something, go somewhere, or date someone I do not enjoy. My adult logic thus nearly always has to end up in the lap of my inner child. 

This is why learning about my exW's problem (BPD) and my problem (excessive caregiver) is the easy part. What is difficult is internalizing that understanding, i.e., transforming knowledge into wisdom, which requires that my feelings catch up with my intellectual thoughts.

Simply stated, I must persuade my child that my adult views of my ex's illness and my own excessive caregiving are correct -- an objective I have mostly attained. Had I failed in that effort, I would remain stuck in a destructive pattern, repeating my past mistakes over and over, because my child will be calling nearly all the shots. 

Because I had been in a 15 year relationship, it took me at least a year to bring my child's feelings into alignment with my adult's understanding. After just two weeks of intense reading on the Internet, I had a pretty good understanding of what I needed to do to get out of the toxic relationship and why I needed to do it.

Yet, because my child was lagging over a year behind my adult, the child sabotaged my every effort to break away. It hindered me with nagging doubts, terrible guilt, and a strong feeling of obligation. It kept telling me that the theory floating around in the adult part of my mind was an insufficient basis on which to wholly abandon a sick loved one. 

Even after I had left her, I still refused to go No Contact for eight more months, at which point I finally realized she is incapable of ever being my friend. My adult dragged my child -- with him kicking and screaming every inch of the way -- to that shocking truth. How do you accomplish that? How do you teach a child -- who had felt for many years she was my best friend -- that she never even had that capability?

To bring the child and adult into alignment, what helped me a little was talking about my new found knowledge to anyone who would listen. Well, that was good for a week. Then their eyes glazed over. So what helped the most was coming to a forum like TAM, where I could discuss it with people who had been there, done that. Significantly, that helped my mind to associate feelings with each of the intellectual thoughts. That has to be done because the child largely learns from emotional experiences -- not from logic.

Writing and talking will help you internalize the information, turning knowledge into wisdom -- by connecting thoughts to feelings. If you doubt that, simply ask any university professor about its effectiveness. He likely will tell you he never had an intuitive, deep-level understanding of his subject matter until he had to teach it to someone else -- or had to write it down very precisely when doing research. 

Hence, what I found most helpful is talking about it to anyone who will listen and writing about it to anyone who will write back. If you are interested in reading about my experiences with a BPDer exW, I suggest you take a quick look at my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. Take care, ASD.


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## DanielleBennett (Oct 9, 2015)

Do not move back in with your wife. You need to separate from her for now. Go out and do your own things, find your own hobbies. Take care of the kids and visit them, take them out for ice cream. Do not let your wife interfere and do the 180 on her. After some time if you really do want to work on things with her, start off slow and date her and go to counseling. Do not move back in for a long while, and not before you have made progress in counseling. But for Pete's sake, DO NOT SLEEP WITH HER! It is only going to hurt you and her both if you do this. She will try to use sex to keep you and if you don't stay it will hurt her worse and it will be harder for you to let go if you keep doing it.


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Thanks for the replies.

I am currently still on my own and have not moved back.
The kids wan tme to be there most of the time so I adopted to be there for lunch and dinner every other day.

I had a fun day with my elder son alone in Munich last Saturday and a fund afternoon/evening with the other son swimming and visiting Pizza Hut.
The elder one seems to be content with me only being there on weekend. "It does not make much of a difference for during the week I do not do much with you anyway" he said.

The younger one is taking it much harder. He cannot understand why we just don't quit fighting/arguing. I don't know how to explain it to him any better.

I see my wife regularily. I cannot ban her from the lunches and dinners. I just can't bring myself to do this because the boys would not understand.

I even do some activities with my wife still. She complains I am very remote. We are currenly doing the groceries (she has no car), we are looking for two new sofas (short excurse: the old ones are broken and we could not buy new ones because I had lost my job. I have found a new one so money is again no problem. the job is 200 ml away but I keep searching for something closer by so I would be closer to the kids).
And we watch movies together.

I know I should not do this, but I just can't bring myself to severe all ties. My councelor correctly stated that I am sending contradicting messages: on the one hand I am remote and have moved out (temporarilly) and on the other I do things with her and we sleep together. She (my councelor) thinks - rightly so again - that I am torn between staying and leaving. 

I already noticed that my wife has chenged significantly about one week ago. She is now totally understanding, not complaining and believes to be leaving me alone (she actually is leaving me more alone, but is still constantly blaming me for being cruel, irrational and asking why I have left, when I will come back and why I don't stay tonight). I told her that I higly appreciate this change in her but I am afraid that this change will not last. 

Yesterday I spend a lot of time walking through a park near by and it dawned on me that my greatest problem is the fear of her reaction when I say that the marriage - not the love - is over.

Now to the sex: I know I should not but as with everything else, I just can't bring myself to stop this interaction.
Today we had great sex again but then she asked if I wuold stay overnight. That killed the atmosphere (of course). 
I don't know if she is trying to use sex to keep me close or if she wants to sleep with me to feel me and fill the void that my absences is creating.

I am really torn here. Just to give you an idea about my dilemma of which I am fully aware: I wrote into my diary a few days back that I did not feel like sleeping with her because I wanted to get some distance. But since I could not withstand the expected reaction if I said "no" I even made a move to push us over the threshold so that I did not have to feel uneasy about the whole situation after the movie ended. As expected, it intercourse was really great. 

Unfortunately it always is and I know this. 

I know I could live quite well with masturbating but how to tell her that?

Regards

asdfjkl


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

One addition:

Since I am currently on garden leave and my new job does not start before July 1st (because I don't want to start earlier) I am planning on doing something drastic for myself.

I will go backpacking to France for six or seven weeks all alone. I will hitch hike to the Atlantic coast and then litereally walk back towards home along the Pyreneas. This should give me ample time to reflect about my sitatuation without any interfereence and find out what I want and to gather the strangth to implement what I have determined on the trip.

I chose France because if need be I could always be back home for the kids within 12 to 24 hours. Besides, I like the language, the Atlantic and mountains. 

I dread the day I tell my wife of this plan sometime during the next two weeks. I want to give her an advance warning of a couple of days to be fair. But I am determined to do it. After more than 20 years of continous hard work I think such a chance to just disappear from the face of the earth for a few weeks only comes once in a lifetime. Thanks to garden leave there is no job-business to attend to and thanks to severance pay money is no problem. 

I hope the trip will send me off to a good start to the rest of my life.

Regards

asdfjkl


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What the hell is garden leave?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

ASD, thanks so much for returning to give us an update on your family's situation. I'm glad to hear that your older boy is taking the situation quite well, with you being available only on weekends.



asdfjkl said:


> I already noticed that my wife has changed significantly about one week ago.


If she has strong and persistent BPD traits as you believe, CHANGE is exactly what you should expect to see. Emotionally unstable people are frequently changing and, if they are BPDers, they can flip from Jekyll (adoring you) to Hyde (devaluing you) in just ten seconds. Granted, it is possible for a BPDer to achieve a lasting change in behavior if she has the self awareness and ego strength to work hard for several years (at least) in individual therapy. But, sadly, it is rare for a high functioning BPDer to accomplish that.



turnera said:


> What the hell is garden leave?


It generally refers to leave where the employee (e.g., a worker that has been suspended) continues to earn his normal daily salary but doesn't have to show up at the office for work. Wikipedia says the term "Garden Leave" originated in the British Civil Service where employees had the right to request special leave for exceptional purposes. Over time, "gardening leave" became a euphemism for "suspended" because an employee who was formally suspended (pending an investigation into their conduct) would often request to be out of the office on special leave instead.


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

turnera said:


> What the hell is garden leave?


That's the term the American companies I have worked for use for an employee who still gets paid but does not need to show up for work because both parties agreed to end the contract.
The garden leave period usually covers the notice period and sometimes - as in my case - half a year more. 

Sometimes it's good to be the scape goat. Your butcher (ex boss  ) needs to be very generous to get rid of you  

Regards

asdfjkl


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

asdfjkl said:


> Hello
> 
> I came to this board about 7 months ago.
> I explained my situation and got support as well as heat from the board. All of this led to more thinking and considration.
> ...


*Bless your heart! May God bless! Always remember that when God closes one window, another one mysteriously opens up!

You're in my prayers, Sir!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Hello,

My major problem is that I cannot handle the unhappiness of my wife. This always leads to me thinking how she would think and making this the basis of my decision. I have started to break through this habit in very small (more like really tiny) steps like not answering a text immidiately or sometimes at all. Leaving temporarily was a big step.

BUT as stated by several people my current seperation does not really fullfill the criterea for a seperation.
Even my councelor who usually does not tell me what to do suggested that I might want to consider a real seperation for a few days.

I pondered the idea for some time and today I told my wife that I will do one or two things with the kids during the next days but I will not come to spend time with her.

It was very hard telling this to her and even harder to uphold the decision. When I am close to her my resolve always begins to folter and I would really like to stay and hope that everything turns our right. The moment I leave, I feel the resolve returning in an instant. I feel like it is the right thing to do.

Doing this was tough and it helped me see that the world will not stop turning if my wife is not happy with a decision i make.
I have cleared my schedule of everything for the next 7 days except for a one day trip to a job interview, a doctor's appointment and the annual audit of our the books (I'm the auditor) of a club I am in.

I have opted against taking a plane to some fancy place or some other tourist trip. I figured that I want to look deep inside of me, not distract me with sight seeing. 

Let's see how this evolves.

Regards

asdfjkl


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

So... one way to look at this is you have so little regard for your STBXW that you feel her entire world revolves around you, and you are the only one able to "save" her from unhappiness.

I know you'll protest - this is for HER - but seriously and objectively consider what you're really saying.

I saw one of those cold case or murder shows once where a man killed his wife and several kids because he lost his job and might even have been considering divorce (don't exactly recall on that point) and he was so full of himself that he felt they should be put down rather than suffer a life without him. When they interviewed him in prison he said he should be studied because he was so unique - he loved them so much that he killed them - surely he was so much stronger than the normal dad. Well... no... He was exactly like the other narcissists who can only see the world as a place that serves them.

So your logic is EXACTLY the same! Crazy, right? You're not a sociopath or narcissist - hopefully - but you're excessively codependent. Meaning you can't separate your emotions and actions from hers, you react to her rather than having objective, independent thoughts, and you assess her actions as though she is thinking what you're thinking.

If you can shake this hold on you, you'll see how crazy this idea is! In fact, your W will be SAD - but only because you aren't doing what SHE wants! Not because something is actually wrong. And she could change the dynamic AT ANY TIME by just stepping up and ACTING LIKE A PROPER WIFE. But she's too selfish to make that effort.

So think about that instead of the manipulative guilt you feel.

Sorry for the 2x4 but that's what I actually see very clearly.


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Thank you.

I can assure you that I am neither a sociopath nor narcessist (I actually did a few test on that).

Councelling helped me to understand the codependency you mentioned above. And you are right that I need to break through this codependency. Unfortunately, breaking with old habits is pretty hard.

I am convinced that my wife will be able to be happy without me despite her saying differently. The thing that evolved over time is that I could less and less tolerate her negative emotions when I did or said something she did not like. So I stopped acting myself and more and more tried to avoid any conflict. If she was happy, so was I - at least that's what I thought. This short term happiness nevertheless led to a much more profound unhappiness which I am suffering through now.

This week I spend Monday and Wednesday alone. Both days have been fine. I can live without her and I do not need her to be happy. I also noticed this on business trips that lasted up to two weeks. If I can do as I please I am perfectly content and happy. 
But the moment I am connected to her (via texting, on the phone or physically present) I immidiately fall back into my pattern of trying to take care of all her needs. My progress in this regard is very small. That is why I think of "needing to break her spell on me". And I think the only way I can do this in an healthy amount of time and without driving me crazy is a seperation. But then again, I don't seem to be ready for that yet.

asdfjkl

totally of topic: could you explain "Sorry for the 2x4"? I never came accross this expression before.


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## bankshot1993 (Feb 10, 2014)

A, can I call you A, because that name you got going on there is just not one that rolls off the fingers if you know what I mean.

Anyway A, I don't have advice for you just a sympathetic ear and to let you know that there are more like you out there. I myself have been with my wife for almost 30 years now. Some of those years great some terrible, our marriage has many scars from our trails and tribulations and every now and then they open and bring with it painful reminders of days gone past.

My wife had a hysterectomy at an early age due to ovarian cancer. This brought on many changes to her personality and our sex life. Well it's now many years later and she just isn't the person I married, to be honest she isn't even a person that I would have ever been interested in in a romantic way, and if I'm being honest I don't even know if she is somebody I would be friends with.

Much of my issue is exactly what your dealing with, the negativity, anger, need to have it done her way... I can relate to all these things. My wife's anger rears its head at some of the most unexpected times and it catches us all off guard. It has poisoned the relationship she has with our two sons and I've had the ever present thought for the last five years about not if but when I leave.

I wish you happiness and I will be watching as you post your progress, maybe because I will be living vicariously through you or maybe because I will be looking for the strength to make the move myself.

good luck.


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Bankshot, thank you for the comforting words. 
Somehow "it is good to know that others face the same issues" sounds terrible. Because it means that others are also going through pain and have a rough time. There is no actual good in others suffering, but somehow it makes my own situation more bearable.
That is strange.

I just watched London has Fallen with my younger son. We ate Doener before and had such a fun time this eveneng! These are the moments that really make me happy. Even if it is only four hours, but that's just so spirit lifting.

Btw:


bankshot1993 said:


> A, can I call you A,


:iagree:


> because that name you got going on there is just not one that rolls off the fingers


Actually it does, if you have learnd to type with 10 fingers. :smile2: And when I logged on, I did not have a more creative idea. :|

Thanks again

A


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

asdfjkl said:


> I will go backpacking to France for six or seven weeks all alone. I will hitch hike to the Atlantic coast and then litereally walk back towards home along the Pyreneas. This should give me ample time to reflect about my sitatuation without any interfereence and find out what I want and to gather the strangth to implement what I have determined on the trip.


I think this is a really good idea. Gives you time alone to think, breaks up the patterns you are in. You might find a whole new perspective on things.

I would suggest not doing anything irrevocable until you get back from this trip. It seems really clear that something has to change, in your life or in you. Maybe with a bit of distance, and with time to think, you will find some new insights.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

asdfjkl said:


> Doing this was tough and it helped me see that the world will not stop turning if my wife is not happy with a decision i make.


Probably one of the most important discoveries you'll ever make.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

asdfjkl said:


> But the moment I am connected to her (via texting, on the phone or physically present) I immediately fall back into my pattern of trying to take care of all her needs. My progress in this regard is very small. That is why I think of "needing to break her spell on me". And I think the only way I can do this in an healthy amount of time and without driving me crazy is a separation.


This probably goes back to something in your childhood. The person whose love you needed as a child probably put conditions on you to 'earn' that love, and you felt you had no choice but to give up YOUR integrity or needs in order to gain the other's 'love.'

You feel you need her to love you, so you instantly go into 'how can I serve you' mode when you're with her. 

But somehow you need to learn that you DON'T need her, you just want her. And once you reach that point, you'll be ok. Because you won't be jumping through hoops anymore.


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## bankshot1993 (Feb 10, 2014)

asdfjkl said:


> Bankshot, thank you for the comforting words.
> Somehow "it is good to know that others face the same issues" sounds terrible. Because it means that others are also going through pain and have a rough time. There is no actual good in others suffering, but somehow it makes my own situation more bearable.
> That is strange.
> 
> ...


Actualy A, feeling better knowing your not going it alone does make sense. There is a reason for the old saying, "misery loves company", and its not because you want other people to be miserable.

It means that other people are feeling the same things as you and are struggling with the same struggles as you. It means you're not alone, you're not the odd man out and since you're not alone now you wont be alone in the future because maybe you're not that odd ball that you feel like.

Knowing somebody else is battling the same issues means maybe the problem isn't you. So no, you're not wrong in feeling good knowing someone else is having troubles too, after all, we all hate feeling alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Hello all,

Thank you again for your thoughts, criticism and support.

Today I think an update is required.

Two days ago I moved back home as the separation was only designed to be temporary and the time was allow up.
Returning home made a few things I suspected obvious.

1st: I really did enjoy the time away from my wife when Inas not thinking about her. While being away Incould do as I please and that felt great. 

2nd: the moment Indeturned and most of the time ever since I get the same "it is all your fault" routine again. Thoughtful argumentation does not bear any fruits. The pattern is: "you always do the wrong thin and I am the one suffering" not a single word pointing to the fact that she might not only be positively contributing to our problems.

3rd: I am more courageous now! I told my wife that I will go to France for six weeks because this is the chance of a lifetime.
Of course Inhot hell in response 
I agreed that the timing is not perfect, butbInwill never have this chance again before retirement - by then Inmight have become nearly blind because Inhave a severe eye-condition, be crippled or even dead. Currently I am free of work hence no calls, e-mails or quick presentations during the relaxing vacation.
She does not accept this. 
We now "agreed" on one month - May 1 through June 1.
But the last two days, she would bring the topic up again and again.

4th: yes, she is always the victim (in her mind)
Because I will leave she will only be able to sleep 90 minutes per day. She will not be able to learn for her courses. She will have to take care of everything all on her own for one month (really tough with 48 years, almost grown children and no financial worries)

5th: I don't count too much. I sent her a text today saying that during the last 18 years Inhave given everything Incould for the family and her. I may not have always succeeded, I may have done too much from time to time but I have always given everything Incould. Now I expect her tonsupport me through my crisis and treating me like a mean criminal because I want to go on a well deserve vacation and grab this unique chance is not. My understanding of support or fairness.

6th: given time, she will come to senses for some time.
She now understands my vacation and says it's okay. 
But Inam quite sure that before the end of this weekend this will change a few times.
She again brought up several "closed" subjects again and won't stop doing iT.

She actually asked if I could not start Sep 1st instead of July 1st because she wants to go on holiday with me alone (in August). 

Currently we plan to go to England with the kids in August. So there will be vacation.

I offered the weekends of June but she said a weekend is not long enough.

I am determined to try but I don't see a chance anymore. 

I will start my new job July 1st and that will change everything. (I am going to look for a job closer by after my vacation and I will find one - for being closer to the kids)

Regards

asdfjkl a.k.a. A


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Keep your head down and focus on yourself. Tune out her manipulative bullsh!t. You dont need her permission for anything. I would also suggest you NOT do a family vacation, why would you do that to yourself?? 

Have you filed for divorce yet??


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

No, I have not yet filed. I will start official separation once I have started my new job.

The youngest wants to have vacation with both his parents together. 
Since it is going to be late August I hope that we have either worked things out so we behave ourselves or we are so decided that I will be able to go alone.


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