# What is Forgiveness and How Can It Help Heal



## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

I am posting the following because I am a BS who has chosen to forgive. By doing so, I am much happier, I am able to give 100% to my marriage (that I discovered after much reflection and prayer) that I really do want and know it is worth fighting for. 7 months past DD and NC, i am happier than I have been in a very long time, my marriage is strong (but scarred), and I am at peace. I still have triggers, but they quickly pass. I do not feel anger or resentment towards my husband. I will not forget, and I do not excuse or dismiss his actions, but I do forgive. What he did and who he was is not who he is today. He is remorseful and we are both in R together and in it for the long run. Forgiveness is difficult to do. It is not for everyone, and anyone who chooses to forgive does so at their own right time. There is no timetable to forgive. Each person's story and heart are different. It is a choice, and it can make a difference in successfully rebuilding a scarred and damaged marriage brought about by infidelity. The following is long, but worth reading.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

WHAT IS FORGIVENESS?

To understand what forgiveness is, it is important to consider what forgiveness is not. The act of forgiveness does not suggest you have forgotten the injustice. Nor does it imply you condone or excuse the wrongdoer. You are not condemning; that only leads to forgiveness that stems from moral superiority. What’s more, you are not seeking justice or compensation.

When you forgive someone who has deeply hurt you, you let go of resentment and the urge to seek revenge, no matter how deserving of these things the wrongdoer may be. You give the great gifts of acceptance, generosity and love. Though the wrongdoer does not deserve these gifts, you don’t let that stand in your way. You give, not out of pity, not out of grim obligation. Rather, you give because you have chosen to have a merciful heart. A heart with the power to free yourself so you can live a better life.

Yes, forgiveness is a paradox—something that may sound illogical but still works. It is the foregoing of resentment or revenge when the wrongdoer’s actions deserve it. It is giving the gifts of mercy, generosity and love when the wrongdoer’s actions indicate that he/she does not deserve them. As we give the gift of forgiveness, we ourselves are healed.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

WHY FORGIVE?

While people forgive for a host of reasons, forgiveness is the right thing to do physically, spiritually and socially.

Physically, forgiveness creates a higher quality of life, a healthier body, and a more positive attitude. Dr. Enright has scientifically proven these and other therapeutic benefits of forgiveness through his experimental studies (with Randomized Experimental and Control Groups). In every one of Dr. Enright’s studies, those in the experimental group showed better emotional health (reduced anger, anxiety, depression, and/or PTSD symptoms with increased hopefulness about the future, self-esteem, and/or willingness to forgive) than those in the control group. For more information, read the text of all the journal articles related to Dr. Enright’s research projects.


According to the respected health website WebMD.com, if you can bring yourself to forgive, “you are likely to enjoy lower blood pressure, a stronger immune system, and a drop in the stress hormones circulating in your blood. Back pain, stomach problems, and headaches may disappear. And you’ll reduce the anger, bitterness, resentment, depression, and other negative emotions that accompany the failure to forgive.”

While refusing to forgive may not directly cause disease, according to WebMD, the negative impact of holding on to painful memories and past wounds can weaken the immune system and make you more susceptible to illness—including cancer. 

In fact, forgiveness therapy is now an integral part of treatment at Cancer Treatment Centers of America. Watch a video interview with Rev. Michael Barry, director of pastoral care at the Cancer Treatment Centers of America in Philadelphia.

"It's important to treat emotional wounds or disorders because they really can hinder someone's reactions to the treatments -- even someone's willingness to pursue treatment," said Dr. Steven Standiford, chief of surgery at Cancer Treatment Centers of America.

According to Duke University, Univ. of Tennessee, and Stanford University, "Holding onto hurts, grudges, annoyances, pet peeves or old wounds hurts the body, especially when the memories are triggered by current life events." They confirmed a physiological link between negative emotional states like revengeful thinking and actions and how it produces stress on the body. They found that stress from revenge or hateful thoughts also lowers the immune system, leaving you more vulnerable to illness and asserts that, "People who are able to forgive can actually modify their heart rate, lower their blood pressure, decrease physical pain and even relieve their depression." Read the story in Psychology Today. Harvard Women's Health Watch also reported findings on how forgiveness instead of hate or holding on to grudges can benefit your mental and physical health. Read What Does Forgiveness Have to Do With Depression?

Spiritually, forgiveness affirms what our faith usually requires of us and, therefore, helps us live a life of integrity. Forgiveness has a common theme across Hebrew, Confucian, Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, and Hindu writings. Many people forgive because their God asks them to do so. They forgive as an act of love toward God. They forgive because they know that it is a morally good thing to do.

Socially, forgiveness reduces anger and resentment and often leads to an improvement in personal relationships with family, friends and community. Forgiveness has a way of cutting through our anger, disappointment and resentment to give everyone involved a fresh start. As you forgive, you are set free from the prison of resentment. Forgiving liberates us. Only forgiveness liberates us from a painful past to a brand-new future. At the same time, those around us benefit because we are less likely to carry our anger into other situations. We are less likely to displace our anger onto those who don’t deserve such treatment.


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## Exsquid (Jul 31, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> When you forgive someone who has deeply hurt you, you let go of resentment and the urge to seek revenge, no matter how deserving of these things the wrongdoer may be.




Wow, I give you props Looking. I am only 3.5 months from DD and I am in R with my wife, so I am no where close to this kind of realization but it does give me hope. I haven't even considered forgiving my wife. I think that will be some years down the road for me(if ever).

But congrats, I do know how nice it is to forgive. It's often more satisfying for the one doing the forgiving. I just couldn't fathom me doing so so soon. But it's nice to hear some do.

I wish you luck in your continuing R.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

*Why are some people afraid to forgive?*
An unclear or mistaken understanding of forgiveness may contribute to this fear. For example, forgiveness may mistakenly be seen as a relatively superficial choice that denies or ignores the pain caused by the wrongdoing. Or forgiveness may be seen as an act that must happen quickly and that does not allow for the time one might need to process the hurtful event.

By contrast, forgiveness may be resisted in order to maintain anger that is “protecting” the person from looking directly at deep pain caused by the wrongdoing. Some people may fear that forgiveness will be seen as condoning the wrong action or letting the wrongdoer “off the hook.” And, in some cases, choosing forgiveness may be confused with undue pressure for full reconciliation with a wrongdoer who may continue to act in an unfair or unsafe manner.


*Should I forgive immediately after being hurt by someone, or should I take some time first?*
This question is quite difficult because circumstances are an important ingredient in the answer. Some offenses are so dreadful that they take much time, while others require only a bit of work with much reward. To set a prescribed timeline for commencing forgiving is to ignore our dictum that forgiving is a choice. To suggest that someone must begin forgiving immediately upon suffering a moral injury is to ignore the necessary period of anger that precedes the forgiveness work. Yet, if we realize that anger, appropriately expressed, is a part of the forgiveness process, then it seems quite reasonable for someone to begin forgiving soon after the injury if the person so chooses. In reality, there is no right or wrong answer to when a person may decide to alter one’s angry course in favor of mercy and kindness.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

There is more, but I thought those were some great key points. I hope this thread may be able to help someone in some way.

To read more, visit: What is forgiveness - Forgiveness Institute


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

*Forgiveness is a GREAT self improvement act!*


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

That's great that you're able to pray away the pain and
grant forgiveness. At this point (5 months later) I cannot.

"it's the greatest gift you can give yourself".

Bah.

It's the greatest rugsweep job you can try to live 
with for the rest of your life "happily".

Sorry, not buying into it.
Still too much pain.

But good for you. Some people are just wired different.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Looking, Hi! So glad to hear your marriage, and more importantly you, are still improving. Very happy. Xx


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

cantthinkstraight said:


> That's great that you're able to pray away the pain and
> grant forgiveness. At this point (5 months later) I cannot.
> 
> "it's the greatest gift you can give yourself".
> ...


No, you are wrong cantthinkstraight. It is a way of looking at things. A way of viewing things. Understanding and accepting. NOT condoning. You cannot change what has been done but u can accept it has been done. No amount of angry thinking changes what has been done.

However, 5 months in is a difficult time and I can completely understand why there is no forgiveness yet. The act of infidelity can cause such huge ripple effects throughout one's life. Especially if the spouse continues the A or leaves for the AP. More so if children involved. 

Forgiveness is about acceptance and moving forward. You can forgive and do the 180, in fact it is better to do so as the 180 becomes much more real, more effective because it is real inside AND out. Forgiveness can happen alongside R, Divorce, separation, dealing with and talking about the issues. Whichever path is chosen, forgiveness exists well alongside it. And the inability to forgive brings deep unhappiness alongside whichever path is chosen. And the unhappiness which comes with not forgiving is reserved only for the person wronged (though of course the person who does the acts that cause so much pain cannot by definition be a happy and contented person. They have their own demons that allow them to commit such acts). Rugsweeping is a whole different ball game. That doesn't necessarily involve forgiveness, and it certainly isn't a healthy way of dealing with issues. Rugsweeping is as unhealthy as unforgiving, bitterness and hatred. And as said above, the inability to forgive and to harbour bitter thought can seep into other areas of life and affect the way you deal with others. It can cause you to misplace the anger and put it onto undeserving people. But also as said above, it takes an amount of time to reach a point of forgiveness. Depending on the person and the circumstance. 

I forgave my man fairly quickly, but he did not do the work, the heavy lifting, and so the anger didn't go entirely. Or the upset. He didn't help me relieve the pain. We have finally split due to his inability to deal with the issues and to ensure total honesty and keeping to his promises (some of them were lies also e.g. No more lies...ever, though he did do certain things that were required. Transparency in actions (though he wasn't coming completely clean), regular updates of where he was and what he was doing etc which did help me. But without dealing with the real issues, R was bound for failure). And actually, it took a good year post DD to more completely accept and forgive. I forgave him long ago for the acts, but I did not forgive the lies while they continued, I did not accept his avoidance of dealing with the issues. And so the acceptance of my situation became apparent, that I would never get what I needed from him. I accepted we were over. And reading that above has managed to slot those final tiny pieces of forgiveness and acceptance into place. Yeah I have lost the love of my life, but hey, it obviously wasn't meant to be, now I know what I really want in a man, now I can look for the full package, the one that doesn't come with the lies cheating and rugsweeping, and now I am totally educated on infidelity and the signs of it. He was a 5* education on that score. And he has laid the path for me to make the brighter future happen for myself instead of just hoping for the best and accepting 2nd rate.

Thanks for the post Looking, for seeing it in black and white, to give more substance to what is there in only random thoughts and feelings.


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## jinba (Apr 26, 2012)

LookingForTheSun - THANK YOU for sharing this - I've been struggling with resentment. These words are helpful in my journey to forgive.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Forgiveness is not for everyone, and it certainly does not come easily. To forgive is a choice to accept the things we cannot change and decide to move forward with our lives rather that live in the past and keep dwelling over something that makes us unhappy, hurt and sometimes miserable and depressed. 

Infidelity is ugly. WE ALL CAN AGREE TO THAT. First, a BS must decide if their marriage is worth saving. Then they must decide if their WS's actions prove that they are remorseful and want to save the marriage to. I can only speak from my experience. For the last 7 months, my husband has jumped into R with both feet. We have had bumps and bruises along the way, but I fully committed to forgiving him about 4 months ago. Yes - we were in R and I still had not forgiven him - truly forgiven him. Neither of us will ever forget. It haunts him today, and it is a random thought or trigger for me. He has not forgiven himself - he owns it, he has learned from it, and he is a better man for it. If I did not forgive, I could not commit myself 100% to our marriage. 

I believe the WS does deserve to be punished, but only until you the BS chooses to forgive and commit yourself back to the marriage. You can't expect your marriage to work out if you hate your partner or want them to hurt - it does not make sense. If you do not forgive, you are only dragging it out, and there is good chance that the marriage won't work. At some point (IF A WS IS TRULY REMORSEFUL AND COMMITTED) a BS has to realize that they can do more harm than good and they can push teh WS away. Why would someone want to stay in a marraige where they are constantly berated and punished for something that they cannot change?

Neither party should ever forget, and they should both be thankful that their marriage survived (if that is what they truly want). However, if your goal as a BS is to punish your WS for all eternity for how they wronged you, you are doing yourself a huge injustice, failing yourself and promissing you and your family a life of misery.

If you simply cannot forgive, you should move on and choose a different path for yourself. If the WS shows no sign of remorse or wanting to change, you should move on. If you take your anger out on those around you, especially your children and your work is effected, you should perhaps seek help and then decide if your marriage is worth saving.

Each person, each marriage, each infidelity is different. If we forgive and our spouses let us down again, at least we will have known that we did everything in our power to make it work. Yet if we do not lead with our heart, we are depriving ourselves of what could be. There are no guarantees in life. Only you can decide what is right for you. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and keep living life to the fullest. Don't let another persons actions keep you down. 

--Just my own $.02 and lessons learned.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Remains said:


> No, you are wrong cantthinkstraight. It is a way of looking at things. A way of viewing things. Understanding and accepting. NOT condoning. You cannot change what has been done but u can accept it has been done. No amount of angry thinking changes what has been done.
> 
> 
> Remains - you tried and gave it your all - you did what was in your heart - you were successful to yourself. You handled your situation amazingly, and you came out on top because of how you are able to see things. You are so right - no matter how angry you get, or how much you hate a person, or how long you decide to punish them for, it WILL NOT change the fact that damage has been done.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

cantthinkstraight said:


> That's great that you're able to pray away the pain and
> grant forgiveness. At this point (5 months later) I cannot.
> 
> "it's the greatest gift you can give yourself".
> ...


:iagree:


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Exsquid said:


> Wow, I give you props Looking. I am only 3.5 months from DD and I am in R with my wife, so I am no where close to this kind of realization but it does give me hope. I haven't even considered forgiving my wife. I think that will be some years down the road for me(if ever).
> 
> But congrats, I do know how nice it is to forgive. It's often more satisfying for the one doing the forgiving. I just couldn't fathom me doing so so soon. But it's nice to hear some do.
> 
> I wish you luck in your continuing R.


A very honest point. 

I too initially said I forgave. But then when I really thought about it, I was being dishonest with myself. 

I feel that a betrayal is an act that is never forgiven or forgotten. It can be managed but not banished. 

IMO, that is a healthy self protective mechanism if one is to stay in the marriage, given that so many cheaters tend to be repeat offenders. 

I read about them on Tam.....two years out, ten years out the BS is cheated on again. 

I am determined not to go through that again. IMO, I deserve better. I really am a good and loyal and faithful person and not being able to forgive a betrayal does not change that. 

In fact, maybe it just shows how much I value all those traits in myself and others. 

BTW: In the catholic religion, infidelity is the only grounds for a divorce and they will even give a complete annulment of the marriage. 

It seems they do not advocate forgiveness so easily.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

cantthinkstraight said:


> That's great that you're able to pray away the pain and
> grant forgiveness. At this point (5 months later) I cannot.
> 
> "it's the greatest gift you can give yourself".
> ...


I disagree. It isn't rug sweeping at all. By choosing to forgive, you choose to NOT allow it to consume you. And yes, you CAN live happily afterward. Not everyone can, but some of us CAN do it. R isn't for everyone. And, forgiving doesn't mean you CONDONE what your spouse has done. What it means is that it isn't going to be your focus, day and night, for the rest of your life. It is a choice that is made. Some can't do it. It is up to them.

And praying away the pain? It is still a process. Even with prayer, you are still going to have days that it gets to you. But over time, the pain lessens. Five months is too soon for some, but not for others. But it doesn't mean it is impossible.

My husband forgave me, even when I couldn't forgive myself. And I forgave my husband as well. I still have days when my mind wanders back to Dday and the days, even weeks, after, and it stays with me for awhile. But it doesn't mean I didn't forgive him. It doesn't mean I am not happy in my marriage.

Whether you wish to believe that forgiveness helps or not is totally up to you. But for those of us who truly HAVE been forgiven and DO forgive, it is real, and it helps in OUR marriages. It isn't rug sweeping. I'd say you are right about one thing... for YOU, it is too soon.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I think too sometimes when you tell someone that "yes I forgive you", that it might jolt them a bit in that wow I did something really bad that someone needs to actually forgive me.

I am just thinking that if someone said to me, Yes highwood I forgive you for what you did..I would also feel bad because I did something terrible to someone. 

Again what I wrote is just a thought...like I said some people might hear those words that they are forgiven and not think in that way.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

highwood said:


> I think too sometimes when you tell someone that "yes I forgive you", that it might jolt them a bit in that wow I did something really bad that someone needs to actually forgive me.
> 
> I am just thinking that if someone said to me, Yes highwood I forgive you for what you did..I would also feel bad because I did something terrible to someone.
> 
> Again what I wrote is just a thought...like I said some people might hear those words that they are forgiven and not think in that way.


Good point, highwood. 

It all depends on the cheating spouse and how deeply flawed their character is. 

If it is a minor flaw, forgiving them may make them feel ashamed and may be the impetus for remaining faithful 

With those cheaters who may have deeper character flaws, forgiveness may seem like a get out of jail card because they think you will always forgive their transgressions.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

*


cantthinkstraight said:



That's great that you're able to pray away the pain and
grant forgiveness. At this point (5 months later) I cannot.

Click to expand...

*


cantthinkstraight said:


> If I could have just prayed away the pain, that would have been AWESOME! I am not super religious. I consider myself a non-denominational Christian. I treat others how I would like to be treated to the best of my ability. I read a lot, I observe closely, and I became super sensitive to my own marriage crisis. I prayed because I started to lose hope. I prayed that God would scream at me what to do. I prayed for the strength to make it through and survive each day for me and my children. I prayed that my husband would open his eyes and see what he had done. Maybe I did not get a direct response or an email or a phone call from above, but something seemed to work. The pain of betrayal is almost unbearable. Yet a combination of things pulled me through it. Prayer, educating myself, making note of everything, and a decision that I had had enough and I could either continue feeling sorry for myself or move on....I chose to move on. I already knew that I wanted my marriage to work, and once he jumped on board, it took me a few months to truly forgive. I had to see and feel his actions. Then I knew that I was in it 100%. It happened - lets both move on from it. He is not able to move past what he did to me, but he is able to move on with me. At some point I hope he will be able to forgive himslef, but never forget.
> 
> *"it's the greatest gift you can give yourself".
> 
> ...


 That is true, and it does not make one person any better than the other. Our past experiences and our beliefs all play a role in how we are wired.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

*


highwood said:



I think too sometimes when you tell someone that "yes I forgive you", that it might jolt them a bit in that wow I did something really bad that someone needs to actually forgive me.

I am just thinking that if someone said to me, Yes highwood I forgive you for what you did..I would also feel bad because I did something terrible to someone. 

Again what I wrote is just a thought...like I said some people might hear those words that they are forgiven and not think in that way.

Click to expand...

*I agree. Once I decided to forgive my husband, he told me he didn't want me to, that he didn't deserve it. I told him it was not up to him and was not for him - it was for me, and he said that he could not stop me, but he was not going to forgive himself.


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> A very honest point.
> 
> I too initially said I forgave. But then when I really thought about it, I was being dishonest with myself.
> 
> ...


Sara
Yes, infedelity IS the only grounds for Divorve in Gods eyes, but we also CANNOT forget what Jesus did in John chapter 8 verse 7.

The adulterous womand was caught in the very act of adultery and Jesus forgave her, true that's Jesus and not us, but he did forgive her.

I hope someday soon to forgive my wife, I need to do that to heal myself and move on. I don't know your story Sarah but I am sorry you were hurt and are still hurting. I feel that forgiveness is something we do need to do for oursevles eventually.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

betrayed1 said:


> Sara
> Yes, infedelity and Jesus forgave her, true that's Jesus and not us, but he did forgive her.
> 
> I hope someday soon to forgive my wife, I need to do that to heal myself and move on. I don't know your story Sarah but I am sorry you were hurt and are still hurting. I feel that forgiveness is something we do need to do for oursevles eventually.


Yes. Jesus was a supreme being (he changed water to wine) We are human. I believe the bible acknoledges the human frailties frequently. 

It interesting that you feel that forgiveness is something "we" need to do. 

I would never tell someone else what to do. would never expect everyone to forgive or everyone to divorce. 

I know everyone's situation is far far too unique to make such an insensitive statement. 

I am glad you feel the need to forgive and that it will heal you.

And I hope you are glad that I don't feel the need to forgive and that preserving my integrity and freeing myself to find another like minded person is the way for me to heal. 

I am not advocating that no one forgive. 

I am only saying that based on the posts I read here by BS's who are blindsided by more cheating episodes 1, 2 6 times after the first dday, and perhaps five ten years after the first Dday, that perhaps that is because they forgave too soon.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Quote of Maricha75
> 
> I disagree. It isn't rug sweeping at all. By choosing to forgive, you choose to NOT allow it to consume you. And yes, you CAN live happily afterward. Not everyone can, but some of us CAN do it. R isn't for everyone. And, forgiving doesn't mean you CONDONE what your spouse has done. What it means is that it isn't going to be your focus, day and night, for the rest of your life. It is a choice that is made. Some can't do it. It is up to them.
> 
> ...


*

Great Post Maricha!!!

You and LookingForThe Sun give us another view of forgiveness and that gives some a lot of hope and encouragement*


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## jupiter13 (Jun 8, 2012)

WE are in R and so far everything is going great. However the thing about forgiving that is not really so easy for me has been that I have always seen things black and white, right and wrong. This area of gray is completely new and I am dealing with it. I have resolved myself to the understanding that I will never have as great a marriage as it could have been before the PA but it can still be a good marriage. I will always be a second rate wife as the OW has gotten the best of my WS when he made his choice. As long as he/we continue to work toward our emotional needs and communication we will survive. The person I was before has been completely destroyed. 

Now we will see what I will become. So far I have discovered I have no patients for anyone that lies to me for whatever reason. I have no tolerance for any kind of injustice and I have definite opinions for so many subjects before I could care less about. So all this change may not be a god thing.

I have already eliminated several people from my life as their kind of friendship is not needed. I would rather be alone than know someone else could but a knife to my back. I think dealing with one lying cheating person in my life is enough. What u have said about forgiveness and moving on was put beautifully Thank You


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## margrace (Aug 12, 2012)

thank you, looking -- this is a great, thoughtful thread with real humanity.

that having been said, i think i might be where you were, remains.

i have been willing to forgive the acts. who is not at some times in need of forgiveness? i am definitely no exception to that.

but the lies that don't stop... i don't know if i can get past that. the unwillingness/inability to deal with the underlying issues... where does that get us? nowhere. i am going to start a new thread perhaps so that i don't get too far off track BUT nevertheless, forgiveness is something i want to think more about.


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## Simon Phoenix (Aug 9, 2010)

I think that's the point. I didn't rent a tuxedo and get in front of a packed church to be second rate to ANYONE. I didn't get married to survive or to reinvent myself after being destroyed by my spouse'a affair. I could've stayed single and did those things without having the burden of having to forgive a spouse for messing around. What's the sense in taking vows if they are only meant to be broken? 

I'm two years out from D-day and it's still too soon for me..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace (Aug 12, 2012)

but with regard to the focus of this thread: what about new facts that come out after you have already committed to forgiving WS? what about additional, old, pre-R infidelities that were never disclosed?

was your forgiveness meant to encompass all that went before R? 

or is NEW news of OLD infractions treated as something that requires another chapter of R (if you are willing) and an additional decision to forgive (if you are willing)?


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

Something on the subject I found somewhere else the link to it is HERE


Find Forgiveness

Forgiveness is considered the highest form of love that we are capable of giving. If this is true it is no wonder that we have such a hard time forgiving someone who has betrayed us and even in forgiving ourselves. To aid us in learning how to forgive it is helpful to understand what forgiveness means and what it’s not. Forgiveness is a voluntary act in which you make a decision to see a situation differently. Forgiveness helps us change the way we think so instead of seeing a situation through the lens of anger, guilt or fear we see it through the eyes of compassion and understanding. Instead of getting stuck in your own emotional baggage you can now see the situation differently with greater wisdom and understanding. That’s forgiveness.

I like to think of forgiveness as the science of the heart, a discipline of discovering all the ways of being that will extend your love to the world and discarding all the ways that do not. It is the accomplishment of mastery over a wound. Forgiveness is a process through which an injured person first fights off, then embraces, then conquers a situation that has nearly destroyed him or her. On a deeper level forgiveness is about changing the way we think which includes embracing our humanity and spiritual nature and the humanity and spiritual nature of all human beings.

Forgiveness is not about pardoning. It is about our inner emotional release. Forgiveness is not condoning. We do not have to accept someone else’s behavior in order to forgive. Forgiveness is not reconciliation. We can forgive someone, but it does not mean we have to reconcile. On a very practical level forgiveness is about lessening your own emotional burdens and healing the pain of your heart. Forgiveness is not about letting someone off the hook. It is about your own inner healing.

It takes a generous spirit to understand that people do not always hurt us because they choose to. Oftentimes, they have no more control over their actions than we, their victims, do. Only from our wisdom and compassion can we recognize that when people harm us, it is their weaknesses that compel them to act. People who attack us act out of fear to protect themselves. Fear drives us into a hard shell. It shuts the door on our capacity to understand, empathize, and love, while allowing distrust and enmity to guard against being touched from the outside world. To compensate for this perception, we often harden ourselves so that others cannot gain access to our inner selves or discover our shortcomings.

Forgiveness is a process that happens over time. Before we can truly forgive, we need to realize that forgiveness is about our inner healing and not necessarily about behavioral change. Until we totally understand that we may needlessly deal with resistance about forgiving someone. We heal by remembering, by brining back into our awareness everything we have kept hidden from ourselves. It takes time to bring these pieces together. This process begins by telling our story and validating our feelings and experiences. Only after time and being in a safe environment can we allow ourselves to feel and express our strong emotions and to explore the issues concerning our pain and circumstances. As we become more aware and accepting of all our emotions as valid messengers about our interaction in the world, we begin our healing. If we are holding onto something, we need to recognize that, despite any other person’s role in creating the situation, we are responsible for what we do with our hurt. Forgiveness is about accepting responsibility for our emotional reactions to our hurt.

What may be harder than forgiving your partner is forgiving yourself. No matter if you are the one who has been hurt or you are the one who has hurt looking within yourself and dealing with the guilt of the past is no easy process. Yet, if we do not do this kind of soul searching and inner work our outer world may be superficial at best. If you have been betrayed you may be blaming yourself too harshly for your partner’s betrayal. You may have contributed to your partner’s dissatisfaction for example by getting buried in your career or in the needs of your children. When you take a look at these issues and take responsibility for them you will be able to let go of your guilt and move on.

If you are the betrayer, you are solely responsible for your deception and need to forgive yourself for the harm you have caused by violating your covenant of trust. You may also need to look at the hurt you have caused your children. By taking responsibility for your actions and making different choices you heal guilt and move forward. Remember that holding on to your guilt is a choice too. Self-forgiveness doesn’t relieve your of responsibility for your words or actions, but it releases you from self-contempt. With self-forgiveness, you bring compassion and understanding of who you are and why you acted the way you did, and reclaim what you most value in yourself.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> A very honest point.
> 
> I too initially said I forgave. But then when I really thought about it, I was being dishonest with myself.
> 
> ...


Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. Nor does it mean you are blind to the possibility of a repeat offence. As you say, things need to be managed to stay healthy. What happened is never erased or banished.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

margrace said:


> okay, started another thread with my specifics -- it's the one that says, thank you, iPhone backup file
> 
> but with regard to the focus of this thread: what about new facts that come out after you have already committed to forgiving WS? what about additional, old, pre-R infidelities that were never disclosed?
> 
> ...


Another chapter. 

And if new infidelities occur after forgiveness, maybe a walk away point is reached.

I forgave her once. There would need to be a very good reason for me to stay if she does it again.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

I totally agree forgivness lightens the loads on people's heart and soul, my previous fiance cheated on me and I wholeheartedly forgave him. Unfortunatly he thought that ment I was goin to stay with him, he was devestated when I explained I have forgiven him because I didn't want to carry around negative emotions (life's just to short) but that didn't mean I wanted him anymore.
Personally for me forgiveness and R doesn't go hand in hand.


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## margrace (Aug 12, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Another chapter.
> 
> And if new infidelities occur after forgiveness, maybe a walk away point is reached.
> 
> I forgave her once. There would need to be a very good reason for me to stay if she does it again.


another chapter.... it sounds, wazza, like that's tied to the fact that it's old TT that came out after R, not new infidelities. if it had been new infidelities, that might have been a dealbreaker for you.

yes. but WH has yet to admit the old infidelities that i just found out about. it isn't even exactly right to call it TT since it never really trickled out at all. i discovered it. this is where i'm stuck.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

margrace said:


> another chapter.... it sounds, wazza, like that's tied to the fact that it's old TT that came out after R, not new infidelities. if it had been new infidelities, that might have been a dealbreaker for you.
> 
> yes. but WH has yet to admit the old infidelities that i just found out about. it isn't even exactly right to call it TT since it never really trickled out at all. i discovered it. this is where i'm stuck.


Yeah, it's hard. I answered "Another chapter" because there is new information to process, and it may or may not change things.

There are old infidelities that were previously unknown. There are old infidelities that were known about but new details emerge. Were those details previously hidden because WS considered them not important, because she was trying to spare my feelings, or because she was trying to deceive me? And there are new infidelities.

I don't believe I know everything that happened between wife and OM and there was another allegation of infidelity that was denied and never proven. For my part I had a couple of close brushes with infidelity and my own weakness gave me new sympathy for my wife's failings.

For me forgiveness is about accepting she's human and did the wrong thing, not holding it against her, and moving on.

If she cheats again, I am really unsure how I could rebuild enough trust to be intimate with her and that would probably end the marriage. I'd still like to think I could forgive her though. Yes she hurt me, but I've hurt her sometimes too.


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## margrace (Aug 12, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Yeah, it's hard.
> 
> There are old infidelities that were previously unknown. There are old infidelities that were known about but new details emerge. Were those details previously hidden because WS considered them not important, because she was trying to spare my feelings, or because she was trying to deceive me? And there are new infidelities.
> 
> ...


yes, i've hurt him sometimes, too.

with regard to the old previously-unknown infidelities and the new details: did you ask (or insist) that she fess up? 

_denied and not proven_ sounds like maybe that happened but she did not admit to them.

i'm anticipating my H doing that. or maybe accusing me of hanging on to all this for too long.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

margrace said:


> yes, i've hurt him sometimes, too.
> 
> with regard to the old previously-unknown infidelities and the new details: did you ask (or insist) that she fess up?
> 
> ...


The affair that was proven, I don't feel comfortable with the information I had. Some sections of it I can see she is choosing her words carefully, and some things she says conflict with what other facts suggest. Lying? Deluded? Or telling the truth and I'm being suspicious? None of the details I'm suspicious about make a material difference to me. I'm guessing there was more physical contact than admitted and she is playing it down. I don't need to pursue it, it doesn't change what matters to me. I just work on the assumption that my worst fears are true. It was a long time ago, I have pushed for more, I have what i have.

The other unproven, alleged affair is something that an acquaintance claimed. The affair was denied by both parties, the acquaintance did not provide specific details, and it was investigated and the "OM" cleared...otherwise his job would have been on the line. It's pertinent because if there hadn't been an actually confirmed affair I would not have given it a second thought, but as it is I sometimes wonder.

Bottom line - I forgive and move on, I divorce, or I live in limbo. She's worth it, I forgive.


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## margrace (Aug 12, 2012)

Wazza said:


> The affair that was proven, I don't feel comfortable with the information I had. Some sections of it I can see she is choosing her words carefully, and some things she says conflict with what other facts suggest. Lying? Deluded? Or telling the truth and I'm being suspicious? None of the details I'm suspicious about make a material difference to me. I'm guessing there was more physical contact than admitted and she is playing it down. I don't need to pursue it, it doesn't change what matters to me. I just work on the assumption that my worst fears are true. It was a long time ago, I have pushed for more, I have what i have.
> 
> The other unproven, alleged affair is something that an acquaintance claimed. The affair was denied by both parties, the acquaintance did not provide specific details, and it was investigated and the "OM" cleared...otherwise his job would have been on the line. It's pertinent because if there hadn't been an actually confirmed affair I would not have given it a second thought, but as it is I sometimes wonder.
> 
> Bottom line - I forgive and move on, I divorce, or I live in limbo. She's worth it, I forgive.


i see. maybe mine's a little different -- wonder if you think so.

my WH acknowledged under pressure and after email proof was presented that he had an A lasting about 6 months.

he did not end it or confess it himself; he was caught.

i know that there are others, at least two. (sorry if i told you this already!) i have asked him for honesty, and he knows that i know that he knows etc.

for me, the deception is between us and stopping us from turning the page. i have made mistakes too and i could forgive him if he would stop lying. i have trouble getting past the lying to my face.

he angrily refuses to speak of it. he simply maintains that he has told me the truth as far as he is willing to, and that he's done. enough, he says.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

On this subject, I really like this article: Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

Some quotes from it:



> First let's try to understand what forgiveness is. One illustration is telling a person who owes you $10,000 that he won't have to pay you back. You "forgive" the debt. In other words, forgiveness is eliminating a obligation of some sort.





> ... we are concerned about inconsiderate behavior that has caused us great pain and suffering -- the pain that an affair causes, for example. Forgiveness in these situations means thinking about the person as if the offense never took place. That is extremely difficult to do. The offended spouse usually thinks, what can he or she do to make it up to me. How can I be compensated for the pain I've suffered.





> To make matters worse, whenever a wayward spouse sees me for counseling there is rarely regret and rarely a willingness to compensate the offended spouse. They usually ask to be forgiven, but that doesn't mean he or she is deeply remorseful. It usually means that he or she doesn't want us to bring up the subject anymore, or require a change in behavior. In other words, the wayward spouse wants the pain suffered by the offended spouse to be ignored or forgotten. Like a $10,000 debt, they want it forgiven, and then they want to borrow another $10,000.





> In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated.
> 
> In most cases, an offended spouse would be unwise to forgive the wayward spouse without just compensation. It's like forgiving a friend of the $10,000 he owes you, when it's actually in the friend's best interest to pay you in full because it would teach him how to be more responsible with money.





> But forgiveness is still necessary even after compensation is made. That's because there's really nothing that can completely compensate for the betrayal of infidelity. Even after compensation is made, there is still the need to forgive. But it's sure makes a lot more sense after the unfaithful spouse makes an effort to restore the relationship.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

*


jupiter13 said:



WE are in R and so far everything is going great. However the thing about forgiving that is not really so easy for me has been that I have always seen things black and white, right and wrong. This area of gray is completely new and I am dealing with it. I have resolved myself to the understanding that I will never have as great a marriage as it could have been before the PA but it can still be a good marriage. I will always be a second rate wife as the OW has gotten the best of my WS when he made his choice. As long as he/we continue to work toward our emotional needs and communication we will survive. The person I was before has been completely destroyed.

Click to expand...

*


jupiter13 said:


> I totally understand were you are coming from (having been through it), but I have to urge you to NEVER think of yourself as a second rat wife. I felt like I was a second choice for awhile, and then I realized - I was a first choice - and the last choice - but only because I decided that I was still an option for him. We are first class wives/husbands - the betrayed souses. Those doing the betrayal, the cheating - they are the second class spouses - with no class, for doing what they did. The WS made poor choices - not a reflection on us. It is also important to remember - the AP NEVER gets the best of the cheating spouse - they get the worst - the liar, the cheat, the head up the a$$, selfsh, idiot that they allowed themselves to become. I personally would not want to be involved in something like that. For peopl who choose to enter into or start a relationship with a married person - they are just as low and cheap as the cheatig spouse - there is no good in either of them. I believe it ispossible for people to redeem themselves. In my case, my husband is truly remorseful and is giving 100%. He has not forgiven himself and believes that he deserves to feel pain and anguish for what he has done. The OW - she was nasty even after he said he was going to try and save his marriage - no hope for her, but not my concern or problem.
> 
> As for the person you were bfore - you are the same person, yet you have changed - probably for the better, although it would have been nie not to have experienced what you did to get there.
> 
> ...


 Being betrayed does make you more aware of your surroundings and other relationships. It is good to remove those who do no good for you.


The whole forgiveness thing is hard. I said it the first time in an effort to make him feel like I was going to be OK and thinking it would bring him around....did not work for either of us. When I said it 4 months ago, I did it because I was ready and because it was for me. I was ready to move past what I could not change and get on with my life. I wanted/want a great marriage. We have a huge scar, but life is full of scars. Does not make it right, but it is done. I will not stand for another infidelity. I have made myself clear. Knowing that, I feel good in my decision to give 100% to the marriage and life I have. Why would I give any less if this is my choice?


You sound like you are doing well - still have a long way to go. My marriage does too, but we made it over the mountain...that was the hardes part.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

margrace said:


> i see. maybe mine's a little different -- wonder if you think so.
> 
> my WH acknowledged under pressure and after email proof was presented that he had an A lasting about 6 months.
> 
> ...


Certainly there are differences. I knew what my wife was doing at the time, she denied it and kept going. Sounds like you found it after the fact.

I've never asked my wife who ended it, and I would say she was caught rather than confessing. Though now, many years after, she has confessed a lot more..if I accept that what she says is the whole truth.

I have an issue with my wife's truthfulness too, though I'm sure she's not lying to me so she can carry on behind my back, whereas you may not be. And I have a basis for trusting my wife which includes when she is likely to be tactful and discreet (as she would see it...ie lie as I would see it).

She does not refuse to say any more because that is all I am going to get. She finds the conversations very painful because they acknowledge a side of her she doesn't like, so she would rather not talk about it. 

If she said to me she had done enough, I would decide whether i agreed. If not....

And if I was certain of two other affairs and he denied them, that would be a dealbreaker for me. But that would be an issue of trust, not forgiveness.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Wazza said:


> Bottom line - *I forgive and move on, I divorce*, or I live in limbo. She's worth it, I forgive.


Forgiveness and divorce are not necessarily exclusive of each other. You can truly forgive the betrayal and at the same time realize you simply cannot continue the marriage.

A lot here seem to think that forgiving means automatic R.

Not so. Attempting R and staying married are not an automatic result of forgiving the betrayal, although a successful R does require true forgiveness.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Forgiveness... The fastest way to line yourself up to be stepped all over. 

I'm sorry if my opinion doesn't fit the current trend of "pretend to feel good until you actually do"... Actually, no, i'm not sorry. Being forgiving isn't actually a good trait to have if you're around those who know you are this way and are willing to exploit it. 

I see junkies stealing from their families because they know they are being "forgiven", i see wife beaters carrying on because they know they are being "forgiven", I see teens acting like idiots all their lives because they have "forgiving" parents and I see cheaters cheating because they know the consequences will never be dire because they have "forgiving" partners.

So screw being forgiving and forgiveness as some sort of virtue. If there was no forgiveness there would be a lot less wrongdoing in this world. When i do my actions i don't expect forgiveness and i let people know that they should not expect it from me either. And behold, apparently people refrain from even trying to get one over on me. 

Call me a cold hearted bastard, but i define myself as a very happy person, and part of that i owe to the timely removal of unhealthy relationships and situations, which allowed me time to cultivate and grow positive influences around me and my family.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

TDSC60 said:


> Forgiveness and divorce are not necessarily exclusive of each other. You can truly forgive the betrayal and at the same time realize you simply cannot continue the marriage.
> 
> A lot here seem to think that forgiving means automatic R.
> 
> Not so. Attempting R and staying married are not an automatic result of forgiving the betrayal, although a successful R does require true forgiveness.


True, I should have been more precise.

I stayed for the sake of my children.Full restoration of the marriage was inconceivable at the time, I hoped for an effective parenting relationship.

For me it worked out better than I could ever have dreamed. I guess I was lucky. There were certainly no guarantees.

But yes, you can forgive and still divorce.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

costa200 said:


> Forgiveness... The fastest way to line yourself up to be stepped all over.
> 
> I'm sorry if my opinion doesn't fit the current trend of "pretend to feel good until you actually do"... Actually, no, i'm not sorry. Being forgiving isn't actually a good trait to have if you're around those who know you are this way and are willing to exploit it.
> 
> ...


OK, you're a cold hearted bastard 

More seriously, we all have failings. I don't agree with your view on junkies, abusive partners, etc. I think they do it whether forgiven or not.


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## margrace (Aug 12, 2012)

i am trying to figure out forgiveness and R with the rest of you. it would be easier, in some ways, if i could get behind one of the more black-and-whitish arguments.

i don't want to forgive as a way of skipping over issues and mistakes and my own feelings, and thereby end up in a revolving door of more lies because i never dealt with what was happening.

i also know that people make mistakes, sometimes serious ones, and hurt each other and hurt themselves in the process. 

sometimes these people are truly selfish and/or pathological, and they really don't care who's hurt as long as they get what they want when they want it. other times, they are people who are in pain and/or desperate and/or weak.

most of the time, my gut tells me that the last description fits my WH. i frequently want to rub his face in it and i have indulged in that a bit. i have been hurt more by his cheating than by just about anything in my life, and i continue to feel disbelief and outrage that it happened. 

if i see that he wants to be accountable and learn about himself and address these weaknesses and blind spots, then i want to forgive him (just as i so often receive the forgiveness of others). if i see some evidence of this happening, then i want to forgive him.

forgiving someone automatically invites the possibility that they can disappoint you again. i accept this. the only way to insure that this particular human being will never disappoint me again is to get him out of my life.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

good thread

For me forgiveness and the inability to even start is proving extremely difficult. DDday out 6 months 
serial cheat for 7 yrs married 11 yrs togeth 15 yr two kids 8 and 9

I've had three main relationships two of which were ended by serial cheating and betrayal. 

I would never have thought I'd equate my ability to forgive with the intensity of the betrayal. I know how 'changed' I am by my latest appalling experience.

My second relationship was with a serial cheat. She was a serial cheat before me and after me. It was what defined her and whatever her deep rooted problems were they manifest themselves by hooking up away from the 'provider' in her life. She was addicted to it, the same before and after and in a real sense I knew from the start I could be in for a high low roller coaster with a 'dangerous' person.

It was no surprise to anybody how we ended up and how she ran our relationship. there were no kids so I was relieved and ultimately expectant of the final result. It had always seemed the likely outcome.

Because of that I wouldn't say I 'forgave' her just I had no reason to maintain any contact and it was easy to let such a hurtful person slip out of my life. But in a sense I always felt she was just being herself and in an odd way I understood her behavior. It kind of didn't require a truck load of forgiveness - more fool me in a sense.

Fast forward to now 15 years with albeit a mentally deeply problematic spouse ( self hating self harming etc etc ) and she has not exactly changed but through my own support has become stronger and stronger more confident in her sexuality which has enable her to be in control of how she can manipulate an 'outside romantic interest which in earlier days she'd put aside but since she reached the age of 30 suddenly became a "I never had my wild flings in my 20s" etc etc etc. So her answer was to do that in her 30's ! inflicting incredible pain upon not only me, her husband and our two kids but also upon other families as well ( they were all affairs with older married men famillies etc. She's shown little of no remorse and pulls up the most incredible excuses for her justifications

This has lead me to 'understand that our own marriage has in fact (whilst she's been professing undying love all the way through it) been a complete facade. All those wonderful days I know we had she now re writes as we did not have and our previous lives together almost insanely never happened according to her current mind set.

I have found in my heart lumps of concrete and steel I never imagined anyone could possess especially me.

Forgive her this monumental destruction of countless lives??

From where I stand I can't believe for a moment it's in any way possible ever and has left me just numb inside.

Will I feel any different? People keep telling me I will but I just don't ever see that and that in itself hurts to feel that - so much energy is put into trying to NOT forgive, to hate anybody with such relish is just, well, tiring I spose 

And even this I blame upon her and cant forgive that she has put me here today with this lump inside my chest that I cannot see ever getting lighter 

This is why I feel the ability to forgive is relative to the depth of the betrayal. I know she has not murdered or raped us families but it's certainly emotionally on the next ladder down for me anyway 

I know that many people have much harder lives than I have, have much more to complain about that I have but that's all relative is it not?

Inside me what worries me more than anything is that I am not looking to forgive not even thinking one day I will. Right now I actually do not want to and in a self destructive way I'm kinda quite 'happy' with that - not the right word but you know what I mean


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

margrace said:


> thank you, looking -- this is a great, thoughtful thread with real humanity.
> 
> that having been said, i think i might be where you were, remains.
> 
> ...


So true.

I was in a good place with myself before his affair. 

I was happy and confident and I was not suspicious and worried that I was being used and duped and having marital assets spend on a low life OW. 

The affair changed me, and I can never forgive that aspect of it. 

Your right none of us got married to be stabbed in the back by the one person we are suppose to be able to trust and depend on the most. 

If we wanted less the trustworthy relationships, we could have stayed single. 

And if the spouse wanted a little on the side, they too could have and should have chosen to remain single and play the field. 

The fact that my STBEH (my choice) was DATING another women while married to me disgusts me and hurts me beyond belief.

And, yes, the trickle truth is a big part of it.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Simon Phoenix said:


> I think that's the point. I didn't rent a tuxedo and get in front of a packed church to be second rate to ANYONE. I didn't get married to survive or to reinvent myself after being destroyed by my spouse'a affair. I could've stayed single and did those things without having the burden of having to forgive a spouse for messing around. What's the sense in taking vows if they are only meant to be broken?
> 
> I'm two years out from D-day and it's still too soon for me..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for being so honest in speaking from your personal experience. 

I am so tired of counselors and others who advice coddling cheaters. 

IMO, that is why cheating rising so rapidly, there is little consequence to it.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

margrace said:


> okay, started another thread with my specifics -- it's the one that says, thank you, iPhone backup file
> 
> but with regard to the focus of this thread: what about new facts that come out after you have already committed to forgiving WS? what about additional, old, pre-R infidelities that were never disclosed?
> 
> ...


Another good point. 

Since most affairs are not uncovered, IMO, a spouse that cheated and has been caught is very likely to have had other affairs that were not discovered. 

What would be the advantage to a cheater to admitting to all their other affairs. 

From and emotional and legal perspective there are no advantages. 

And, let us not forget that cheaters are already proven liars. People who have looked their spouse in the eye and told lies about their whereabouts, when they were going to bang their affair partner.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. Nor does it mean you are blind to the possibility of a repeat offence. As you say, things need to be managed to stay healthy. What happened is never erased or banished.


So then is that truly forgiveness, or is it just denial that it is impossible to forgive?


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

margrace said:


> yes, i've hurt him sometimes, too.
> 
> with regard to the old previously-unknown infidelities and the new details: did you ask (or insist) that she fess up?
> 
> ...


More good points. 

It's not just that cheating hurts the spouse, it is major act of disrespect. 

It is emotional abuse. I think people forget that factor. 

It's not in the same category as getting into an argument with the spouse and SAYING something hurtful. 

It's acting out in a way that is disrespectful and many times meant to slap down the spouse for some silly perceived hurt. 

Cheater typically have major character flaws.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Thank you for being so honest in speaking from your personal experience.
> 
> I am so tired of counselors and others who advice coddling cheaters.
> 
> IMO, that is why cheating rising so rapidly, there is little consequence to it.



I know its a whole other thread but this is just so the period the times we live in right now 

"Yes yes okay okay you, your kids and other families you've been completely annihilated but it's happened .......so get over it" 

and then lo and behold you find *you* are the one being held responsible for stopping everybody getting on with their lives !!!

Excuse my french but the damn fking cheek of it

I s'pose the big problem really is most of the peripheral figures in a couples' lives have not been through this, have no experience of this kind of destruction ( 'it only happens to others') so are blind to the whole thing.

Although currently imo there is a definite social 'movement' towards indulging one's selfishness at all costs
- "I want that" even though it will obliterate everybody and everything around me 

........fk it I'll have - NOW


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

TDSC60 said:


> Forgiveness and divorce are not necessarily exclusive of each other. You can truly forgive the betrayal and at the same time realize you simply cannot continue the marriage.
> 
> A lot here seem to think that forgiving means automatic R.
> 
> Not so. Attempting R and staying married are not an automatic result of forgiving the betrayal, although a successful R does require true forgiveness.


Exactly. I have already forgiven my STBEH, but I still filed. I realize he is weak and selfish and immature and I have forgiven him for that. 

Still, that doesn't mean I want to reconcile.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Headspin said:


> I know its a whole other thread but this is just so the period the times we live in right now
> 
> "Yes yes okay okay you, your kids and other families you've been completely annihilated but it's happened .......so get over it"
> 
> ...


Yes. Excellent. It is a me me, I, I society we live in. 

IMO, perhaps if cheaters were shamed and punished more by society, instead of celebrated, and coddled, it would happen less often. 

Also, why is there a split of marital assets after cheating. 

IMO, I don't know how much money my cheating spouse spent on the OW, while I was at home juggling finances and being very cautious with our spending to ensure a secure future. 

I don't know how many prior affairs he may have had since he was caught and did not confess. 

Why are marital assets to be split. 

STBEH is a thief and a con man who stole from me for selfish pleasure. 

IMO, not only should he not get half of anything, he should be in prison. 

Like I said, I can forgive his weaknesses, but I can not forgive the lies and deceit and I having no children there is really no reason for me to reward him by staying. 

IMO, hysterical bonding and spiced up sex or giving into lap dances for the cheater is just a pavolovian reward for a cheater. 

It teaches them no lesson at all. 

I want a partner who makes love to me, not one who needs to be reward with a lap dance. 

To me a lap dance (usually done in exchange for money) is prostitution. 

I don't want a spouse who needs to be enteratined by a prostitute. 

I want a spouse who respects me as an equal and wants to make love to me, not be entertained by some perverted lap dancer.

Also, after our first false R. In which I though everything was going well, and then I found out he was getting lap dances, when I asked why he did that, he said he was angry that I was suspicious and checking up on him all the time. 

Apparently he resented being transparent. 

That's a real laugh and show no remorse, IMO.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Simon Phoenix said:


> I think that's the point. I didn't rent a tuxedo and get in front of a packed church to be second rate to ANYONE. I didn't get married to survive or to reinvent myself after being destroyed by my spouse'a affair. I could've stayed single and did those things without having the burden of having to forgive a spouse for messing around. What's the sense in taking vows if they are only meant to be broken?
> 
> I'm two years out from D-day and it's still too soon for me..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel similarly. I have been divorced since June 2012. WS left in June 2011. I have not been able to forgive or forget. 

When we talked of marriage, I asked if she had ever cheated on her ex. She said, no but he thought I did. Well, guess what? I believed her.

I could have stayed single as well. I was reasonably happy; much happier than I am now. 

I had the freedom to do anything I wanted. Although I have that freedom once again, I am not the same person. I am ten years older and have wasted all of those years trying to help my ex-wife accomplish her goals. Now, I have less time to accomplish mine. You see, I thought by helping her, I was helping me. I thought she would recognize what I was giving up to help her. Apparently, she lost sight of that when she found her business doing well. Isn't that nice.

Some folk's have said the best revenge is to increase my standing in life. 

Accomplishing my goals will be the best thing for me as well. The trouble is, I was stupid enough to think my ex was going to help me accomplish those goals once she accomplished hers.

The betrayal was more than just physical. It was mental and emotional. It affected my whole being. I have much to recover from and I am mostly on my own.

I have thought about forgiveness. I may need to forgive myself before I can forgive her. I must accomplish my goals first. I must achieve the lifestyle I thought I was working toward with her. She is there now, without me. 

She has done everything she could to prove I am not as good as her. She has wrecked me. I have contributed to this. That is why I must forgive myself first. I may not be able to do that, but I must try. I just hope I can. It will be a miserable life if I don't.

I hate playing the poor me game. I just can't seem to break out of it. I must make some drastic changes in my life. I will have to be careful, but the changes must come.

I am wondering what folks think about just dating? Who has dated and not gotten serious? Why do you feel it is best for you? Are you happy? Do you feel more secure?

Some have told me that they, even if in a relationship, will sleep with whoever they want. I was never this way. I am considering the benefits of that. 

It seems that is what my ex did and it worked quite well for her. She had me, so she wasn't alone. She looked around and had sex with other men while we were together. That gave her the opportunity to find a "better" man. 

Her brother does this as well. I know this from conversations with him, after we were together for a couple of years. Is this the best way? Will this get me where I want to be? Opinions welcome. 

I am so torn, I do not know yet what I am doing. I know I must make a goal and work toward it. I just don't have the kind of time I need to make mistakes. I used to, but I wasted it on my ex-wife.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Wow, the WS really messed us up. What was it they saw in us? What made them want to marry us? 

If we are so bad, why did they want us? It doesn't make sense. We must have some good in us. Others must see it. Why don't we?

If our spouse was the object of our affection, we must have been attractive. We must still have some of that attraction within us.

When will we believe in ourselves again? When will we achieve our goals? I for one, am going to try. I have nothing to lose now. I am going to give it my all. 

I hope we all find our opportunity to heal. I hate being this way. I want to feel better. I want to do fun things. I want to live again.

I have to get rid of the things which make me sad. I have to find the things which make me happy. I have to keep those close to me. I have to live for today. I have to love for today. 

Wow! Where did that come from? It must be inside of me. I hope I can pull it out and look at it when life is hard and it will be. 

Reading posts on this forum has helped me soooo much. Knowing that others feel similarly puts life into perspective. I thank everyone from the bottom of my heart.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I feel similarly........The betrayal was more than just physical. It was mental and emotional. It affected my whole being. I have much to recover from and I am mostly on my own.
> 
> I have thought about forgiveness. I may need to forgive myself before I can forgive her. ......... She has wrecked me. I have contributed to this. That is why I must forgive myself first. I may not be able to do that, but I must try. I just hope I can......... I just don't have the kind of time I need to make mistakes. I used to, but I wasted it on my ex-wife.





2ntnuf said:


> Although I have that freedom once again, I am not the same person. I am ten years older and have wasted all of those years trying to help my ex-wife accomplish her goals. Now, I have less time to accomplish mine. You see, I thought by helping her, I was helping me. I thought she would recognize what I was giving up to help her.


Same for me I gave her the life she dreamed of wanted and had by supporting her and subjugating my own path and dreams. I'm a musician and basically put my efforts to earn serious money from it on hold, became full time househusband, although still teaching part time privately, whilst she swanned around being some kind of arts guru (part time mostly I might add). I loved her, thought it was what she wanted so gave it. She lied from start to finish - the whole marriage was basically a lie

Like you I am now intending to fight my way back to a position where I can earn some serious income but whilst I cover the household and children's needs ( they are with me over half the time) it's going to be a long haul. Of course she now wants 10's of thousands of £'s off of me which again I will need to be able to pay for in the future.........Don't you just love her  

We sound similar -I gave her my soul, my heart, my very core. I almost just really ''joined', melded into her and left me somewhere else!!

Well both your above posts are poignant reminders of just how you, I, and many betrayed spouses have a 'real heart' in us and not just some apology for one that works on a "I'll take this while it suits me and then I'll have a look for something that's better and when that finally comes along I'll have that as well"

Have to say I do respect anybody that could forgive a spouse this kind of betrayal. It's not just a fk in the back of a car in some grimy car park - it's the lack of respect, of humanity that gets me, the ease with which she could just time and again cheat lie and deceive and then having sown seeds of destruction in other married couples lives she, once caught, then lied trickle truthed gaslighted almost until you pulled her teeth with unarguable evidence. And you then expect some remorse, real unconditional remorse - Not a fking bit of it - "you made me do it" 

That bit actually the last time really did do me. After such mammoth deceptions you'd think it would be easier to hold your hands in the air and say "okay okay, I did it , I did that, and that, and that"

I cant in all honesty say forgiving her is a priority anywhere in my life or ever will be. 
Any person that can forgive this kind of woman /person is a better man than me - I'll own up to it


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation, or even moving towards it. Forgiveness is letting go.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> Forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation, or even moving towards it. Forgiveness is letting go.


It would be easier to let go if I was in her situation. I have to start over. She started over while she was with me. I wonder how many years it took for her to realize what she wanted wasn't me? How many years will it take for me to completely let go?

I cannot. It will always be in my memory. I am not the same person I was before the separation. I am not the same as I was before meeting her. I am worse for knowing her. 

I was reasonably happy when we met. I had goals I was working toward. What do I do now? Trust anyone? No, that is gone.

i believe I have to become what she was to me. Outwardly caring and loving with a black heart and no guilt about anything.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

This topic has been haunting me for days. I find comfort in the article yet a horrible sadness as well. I can't stop thinking about the WS having a penchant for deceit. His EA was online and short in duration (about a month of communication and the last two weeks of the I love you infatuation variety). I was suddenly hit with the realization that within that time frame he decided probably a 100 times or more to deceive me. *Boom* that was slap in the face. 

I mean we all think of the collective affair as one big chunk of betrayal but when I broke it down to every day, every time he text ed her and it was probably at least 20 or so a day......each time was devious. Each time was a choice he made to either do the right thing or actively and purposely erode our marriage. 


A few weeks ago he went to a show with his BFF (who knew nothing of this) and they started talking relationship problems. He told his BFF that we have been in weekly counseling but he didn't tell him the reason. I asked him why and he said because he is ashamed and didn't want to be judged by his friend. Isn't that part of owning it, and apologizing and basically being remorseful and human? To own your mistakes..... I mean it's his long term BFF . Yet we who are in R are facing everyone, we've exposed, we've swallowed our dignity, we've faced the wounds head on and we soldier on despite our grief and confusion. 

It's a sad day for me.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

2ntnuf maybe you will be able to forgive when you get to a place where your indifferent to her. Or perhaps indifference to her will be enough.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

abitlost said:


> 2ntnuf maybe you will be able to forgive when you get to a place where your indifferent to her. Or perhaps indifference to her will be enough.


I'm sure your on to something. I just don't know if I will ever feel indifferent. It is difficult to lose the love of your life. 

It's just too bad she didn't feel the same. I was so naive.

Love is a decision, not a feeling. Feelings are what get in the way of a good life. I found out the hard way.

Romance my arse.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

The projection she gave of herself was the love of your life, not the person she actually was. Once I truly realized that about my ex I realized that although I hated the fact I was duped by his outer character, the person I fell in love with was an illusion.
Can't lose someone who in reality didn't exist.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

abitlost said:


> The projection she gave of herself was the love of your life, not the person she actually was. Once I truly realized that about my ex I realized that although I hated the fact I was duped by his outer character, the person I fell in love with was a illusion.
> Can't lose someone who in reality didn't exist.



p.s I didn't mean to sound preachy or tell you about your relationship,
It just helped me move on a lot faster when I acquired that mind frame.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

margrace said:


> he angrily refuses to speak of it. he simply maintains that he has told me the truth as far as he is willing to, and that he's done. enough, he says.


There are a few of us here with this problem.

Everytime I see it written I think 'NO! He is defensive because he is lying! He won't talk because he is protecting his lies! He is angry so as to shut you up! So that you will be scared of pursuing his lies! Don't fall for it.' 

If it were the truth, you would know it. The response would be totally different. 

It is as obvious as hiding his phone when you come into the room, as obvious as deleting texts and emails and saying that he 'just deleted them' or 'he thought you would be upset at finding nothing'. It is as obvious as finding him in bed with another woman and him saying 'she is just a friend, you are paranoid!'

It makes me so cross, because this is what my man (now ex) does, and he expects me to believe him. That I, ME, is the one with the problem. No way!


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

And I mean all that in the nicest possible way Margrace. I like your posts. I have an affinity with your situation. I know what u go through, I know how difficult it is, the excuses we make for them. I am angry at me! I saw your words and it all comes flooding back to me how I doubt my gut instinct, make excuses for him, temper what he says there, just as yours says, with other lovely things he does, I miss him! And then I see your words and remember. I forget so easily the focus of his lies and lack of truth. I see your words and they mirror my situation. And I am so cross at myself for not standing firm continuously and for melting in his quagmire of sweetness, so long as I mention nothing. No! He is full of sh*t. Just as your man is!


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

costa200 said:


> Forgiveness... The fastest way to line yourself up to be stepped all over.
> 
> I'm sorry if my opinion doesn't fit the current trend of "pretend to feel good until you actually do"... Actually, no, i'm not sorry. Being forgiving isn't actually a good trait to have if you're around those who know you are this way and are willing to exploit it.
> 
> ...


Forgiving does NOT equal doormat. Forgiveness does NOT equal staying 'friends' with a sh*thead. And it does not equal lying back and letting all and sundry walk all over you. Revenge is not healthy, revenge is not sweet. Revenge in practically every case is pointless. And so, to move on, we find forgiveness.

Forgiving is accepting, understanding (not necessarily, or even mostly, condoning), and moving on. 

Forgiving is moving on. Simple as that. Not getting stuck in a cycle of hate, revenge, or thoughts of these. And moving on takes whatever form it takes. Any scenario you choose that involves a positive forward motion.


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## margrace (Aug 12, 2012)

Remains said:


> And I mean all that in the nicest possible way Margrace. I like your posts. I have an affinity with your situation. I know what u go through, I know how difficult it is, the excuses we make for them. I am angry at me! I saw your words and it all comes flooding back to me how I doubt my gut instinct, make excuses for him, temper what he says there, just as yours says, with other lovely things he does, I miss him! And then I see your words and remember. I forget so easily the focus of his lies and lack of truth. I see your words and they mirror my situation. And I am so cross at myself for not standing firm continuously and for melting in his quagmire of sweetness, so long as I mention nothing. No! He is full of sh*t. Just as your man is!


yes, i took your meaning in exactly that spirit, remains. i definitely go back and forth inside myself in exactly that way. your posts are always really helpful.

in this back-and-forth process, the possibility of forgiveness sometimes feels like it is leading to something further (like real R) but at times, i'm not sure. today, i feel like i could forgive but perhaps never trust -- even though i believe that he is not cheating or lying _at this particular point in time._

it's the weeks and months and years ahead that i'm not sure i can take on. i don't know if i can ever really trust him and i don't want to be agonizing and verifying forever.

the problem is, i don't know if i _can't_ do it yet either.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Remains said:


> Forgiving does NOT equal doormat. Forgiveness does NOT equal staying 'friends' with a sh*thead. And it does not equal lying back and letting all and sundry walk all over you. Revenge is not healthy, revenge is not sweet. Revenge in practically every case is pointless. And so, to move on, we find forgiveness.
> 
> Forgiving is accepting, understanding (not necessarily, or even mostly, condoning), and moving on.
> 
> Forgiving is moving on. Simple as that. Not getting stuck in a cycle of hate, revenge, or thoughts of these. And moving on takes whatever form it takes. Any scenario you choose that involves a positive forward motion.


We have different understanding of the word. In your way of seeing it you have no difference between forgiveness and indifference. I don't think that is what people understand by the word. You're referring to that kind of "forgiveness" the parents of a victim give a condemn guy. The mandatory judaic-christian "i forgive you" crap when in truth you can be stoning them to death. With that "forgiveness" i can live with, but i don't consider it forgiveness.



> Revenge is not healthy, revenge is not sweet. Revenge in practically every case is pointless.


Bullocks... I like revenge. That's political correctness talk. You cross me the wrong way and i'll be DRIVING the karma bus when it hits. And i will feel good about it. Sorry if that makes me sound a bit callous, but that's who i am.

Luckily i have had no reason to do that for years. Perhaps a decade even.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

margrace said:


> yes, i took your meaning in exactly that spirit, remains. i definitely go back and forth inside myself in exactly that way. your posts are always really helpful.
> 
> in this back-and-forth process, the possibility of forgiveness sometimes feels like it is leading to something further (like real R) but at times, i'm not sure. today, i feel like i could forgive but perhaps never trust -- even though i believe that he is not cheating or lying _at this particular point in time._
> 
> ...


Snap! Exactly your words down to the very last one. 

Until about 5 weeks ago. He made my limbo end by finally, 1 year and 3-4 months after DD, over the following month giving about 4 different occasions of the fact he is, and that I was right, totally full of sh*t. I felt a weight lifted. 

But as we know, with the love of your life that you have invested so much into, it isn't over til its over.

I hope your limbo finds its path soon. Xx


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

costa200 said:


> We have different understanding of the word. In your way of seeing it you have no difference between forgiveness and indifference. I don't think that is what people understand by the word. You're referring to that kind of "forgiveness" the parents of a victim give a condemn guy. The mandatory judaic-christian "i forgive you" crap when in truth you can be stoning them to death. With that "forgiveness" i can live with, but i don't consider it forgiveness.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With regards to the former, I don't think that doing an unthinkable act makes you feel better. The thought of it is good while the anger and hurt is there, but the reality is somewhat dirty and degrading. Just as the wrong was that was committed against you. 

In my opinion, and in your example, forgiveness is more about feeling sorry for the person who committed the act. That they are such a damaged individual to do such things. They will NEVER be happy. At least those who commit and don't take responsibility or feel remorse. They will never be 'clean'. Would I feel better for murdering? I think not. I think I would be tainted then also. And I would be happy in the 'revenge' of knowing their permanent taintedness. 

Which moves on nicely to the latter, revenge is a dish best served cold. Hot revenge can cause potential escalation into madness. Accidental revenge, something I have experienced a couple of times to my delight, was always the most satisfying. Though I have no benchmark as I have never partaken, I don't think, in hot minded, instant gratifying revenge. I only imagine that to lead to disaster.

Forgiving of adultery or other wrongs, all things have reasons and circumstances, different people have all myriad of those. I forgive my damaged man for his pathetic weaknesses, and I move on because I see no change. No real will to really change. But I forgive him. It is easy to forgive him though because he is weak, and he is a decent man essentially. Just not when it comes to women. He is a damaged individual who hides behind much sh*t. I feel sorry for him. He is not real. He is a facade. And thus he will never be true to himself or to another. He deserves only pity.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> With regards to the former, I don't think that doing an unthinkable act makes you feel better. The thought of it is good while the anger and hurt is there, but the reality is somewhat dirty and degrading. Just as the wrong was that was committed against you.


Been there, done it, felt so good and so right. So no, i don't buy that mushy morality of "revenge is bad for you". At least for me it isn't. 

But i ain't talking about murdering no one. Although if someone was to do something to my loved ones he/she better watch out because there will be his/her brain matter in the pavement sooner or later.



> In my opinion, and in your example, forgiveness is more about feeling sorry for the person who committed the act. That they are such a damaged individual to do such things. They will NEVER be happy.


I find that to be terribly optimistic and naive. Many narcissistic types continuously make others suffer and have no regrets whatsoever. They are indeed happy in their twisted way.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

abitlost said:


> p.s I didn't mean to sound preachy or tell you about your relationship,
> It just helped me move on a lot faster when I acquired that mind frame.


I understood and I thank you for trying to help me.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Remains said:


> Forgiving does NOT equal doormat. Forgiveness does NOT equal staying 'friends' with a sh*thead. And it does not equal lying back and letting all and sundry walk all over you. Revenge is not healthy, revenge is not sweet. Revenge in practically every case is pointless. And so, to move on, we find forgiveness.
> 
> Forgiving is accepting, understanding (not necessarily, or even mostly, condoning), and moving on.
> 
> Forgiving is moving on. Simple as that. Not getting stuck in a cycle of hate, revenge, or thoughts of these. And moving on takes whatever form it takes. Any scenario you choose that involves a positive forward motion.


Does it involve talking with the person you are forgiving?

You see, my ex thinks we should be friends. She thinks I should smile and wave at her. Sorry, I don't have it in me yet. I may never have it in me.

If I would say anything to her, she would think I am okay with all of it. I am not.

I have soooo much anger. It is not as intense, but it is still there. 

I hear anything about her and it rips my heart in two. I don't know when it will change for me. I hope soon.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

*Can't lose someone who in reality didn't exist*



abitlost said:


> Can't lose someone who in reality didn't exist.


Now that is a very very good line.

That line should be on the side of every page on this site in my humble opinion


*You Can't lose someone who in reality didn't exist*

excellent abitlost that should get you into a publication/book of deep truthful quotes


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Remains said:


> I am angry at me! I saw your words and it all comes flooding back to me how I doubt my gut instinct, make excuses for him, temper what he says there, just as yours says, with other lovely things he does, I miss him! And then I see your words and remember. I forget so easily the focus of his lies and lack of truth. !


I have been stuck at this very point for the last 6 months. 

This is exactly why 'forgiveness' for me is not an option.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

margrace said:


> ....in this back-and-forth process, the possibility of forgiveness sometimes feels like it is leading to something further (like real R) but at times, i'm not sure. today, i feel like i could forgive but perhaps never trust -- even though i believe that he is not cheating or lying _at this particular point in time._
> 
> it's the weeks and months and years ahead that i'm not sure i can take on. i don't know if i can ever really trust him and i don't want to be agonizing and verifying forever.
> 
> the problem is, i don't know if i _can't_ do it yet either.


This is it is'nt it - when can you feel deep inside that you can cope with it not on a daily random emotional basis but forever?

I tried for years and kept thinking , thank God it's finally working and just then, right then, just as my head and heart had got through a huge barrier she'd start another pile of shvt with yet another man, until finally something just went bang inside and now I can't even be in the same airspace and in terms of forgiveness 

She thinks now "that's kinda done lets all be friends"
I hurt you , you hurt me (Oh yeah didnt I just how!?) so for the kids lets be blah blah .....

Forgiveness? .........mmm


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Does it involve talking with the person you are forgiving?
> 
> You see, my ex thinks we should be friends. She thinks I should smile and wave at her. Sorry, I don't have it in me yet. I may never have it in me.
> 
> ...


Ahaa your spouse and mine must be twins!


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

costa200 said:


> Been there, done it, felt so good and so right. So no, i don't buy that mushy morality of "revenge is bad for you". At least for me it isn't.
> 
> But i ain't talking about murdering no one. Although if someone was to do something to my loved ones he/she better watch out because there will be his/her brain matter in the pavement sooner or later
> 
> I find that to be terribly optimistic and naive. Many narcissistic types continuously make others suffer and have no regrets whatsoever. They are indeed happy in their twisted way.


All good points, Costa, in all your posts. 

There are platitudes such as revenge is dish best served cold and ones such as revenge is sweet. 

I think most people who sanctimoniously claim they forgave their spouse for cheating are in serious denial about the fact that the feelings of revenge, resentment and hatred are all normal human responses to the ultimate betrayal by a spouse. 

I actually worry about these people who have reconciled and claim they forgave, because they are obviously denying and repressing. 

IMO, the R would be more real and lasting if they owned up to their anger resentment, hatred and inability to forgive. 

There is a book called "passionate marriage" in which they talk about how it is normal to sometimes hate your spouse even in a good marriage. 

When this concept of normal marital hatred is brought up at marriage seminars, the author of the book says that most people get very uncomfortable about owning up to it. 

But this psychiatrist and skilled marriage counselor says that owning the normal feeling of occassional hatred is healthy.

Accepting this normal feeling of hatred makes the marriage stronger not weaker.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Now im wondering did I really forgive or just become indifferent lol.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

*Re: Can't lose someone who in reality didn't exist*



Headspin said:


> Now that is a very very good line.
> 
> That line should be on the side of every page on this site in my humble opinion
> 
> ...


I agree. You can't lose someone who didn't exist. 

The honest, trustworthy man I married never existed. 

He wasn't replaced by a liar and a cheat. 

He likely always had those traits. He was simply much better at hiding them than are others. 

Both his words and actions after DDay showed me that. 

And the fact that he now denies saying all of the extremely hurtful things he says also scares me because he still will not own those words, and is now lying to himself as well as me.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

costa200 said:


> I find that to be terribly optimistic and naive. Many narcissistic types continuously make others suffer and have no regrets whatsoever. They are indeed happy in their twisted way.


I completely agree. Which is why they will never be truly happy.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

*Re: Can't lose someone who in reality didn't exist*



Sara8 said:


> I agree. You can't lose someone who didn't exist.
> 
> The honest, trustworthy man I married never existed.
> 
> ...


Well yes Sara and here's the trick if only they'd manage some real honesty and unconditional remorse they'd find that they can own their own faults and weaknesses air them openly .....and move on ... 

BUT of course they never will, they can't do that one simple thing - it's all too 'inner' for them. It means having to really look at ones self and reach into your inner soul to do it and admit your failings and so they will never really move on. 

They think they will but as I can see in my stbxw with her in built self hating and other disorder problems she will at some point collapse and it will big.

And like you say about the biggest realization for me in all this was she was hiding what she really was all the time

I got it all wrong with my wife 

She said to me often over the last few years "I am no longer that soft, warm, girl you married" and it was easy to agree with that as she then behaved like this 'new' person BUT now having been through a period of time without her I realize I was completely wrong about her. 

I was fooled at the start, 15 years ago, she was'nt the person I thought, hoped she was _then_. She didn't change at all - she just kept her real self at bay until finally bit by relentless bit it won over until the good person I thought was there just vanished under the real black hearted perpetual liar and deceiver tat she actually was all the time

hence I've lost someone who did'nt actually exist!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> I think most people who sanctimoniously claim they forgave their spouse for cheating are in serious denial about the fact that the feelings of revenge, resentment and hatred are all normal human responses to the ultimate betrayal by a spouse.
> 
> I actually worry about these people who have reconciled and claim they forgave, because they are obviously denying and repressing.


No, You have the negative feelings but can see them as part of a larger reality. It's not about denial, it's about perspective.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Sarah
No doubt about it you really took a hit from your cheating husband. Your other posts tell me that your husband was never really serious about making amends to you and working to gain your trust. Instead he went back to cheating. That is not true remorse nor is it someone that cares more about you than his own selfishness.

I could go on and tell you how much of a sewer roach your husband is but this is not what will help you in the long run. Here is what I would like to see you consider.
*Use your emotional energy to seek what is best for you.*

Forgiving him includes you working to get his actions to be of little to no affect on you. If you believe that you will be better off in the future and take steps to get there then he will become less of a factor in your life.

Really your choice are:

1	Remain in the state that his betrayal takes up a lot of your emotions that involve wishful punishment for him.

2	Make a decision to follow a plan (includes forgiveness) that will help you reduce or become free from his affects on you.

That is what I see as the two options you have right now. Did I miss something?

Let me explain the forgiveness that I am talking about. Forgiveness DOES not have to be reconciliation. Forgiveness DOES NOT mean being gullible and a door mat or allowing yourself to be duped.

*The forgiveness that I am talking about is for you to begin to let go of having his weakness, immaturity, and selfishness that keeps you from fully concentrating on improving your life in mind, body, and spirit.* Additionally, get busy concentrating on you becoming the best Sarah you can be without your husband’s crap interfering with that progress.


*You getting better is more important that you trying to promote justice in this unjust situation*. Situations like this are unjust but we cannot bring our idea of justice into this world, because we do not have that ability. We have to let other powers take care of the justice and we can best serve ourselves by spending our energy on improving ourselves.

I wish there was an easier way but I have not found one, have you?

I give you this post in hopes that you will think about another view that may help you.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

abitlost said:


> The projection she gave of herself was the love of your life, not the person she actually was. Once I truly realized that about my ex I realized that although I hated the fact I was duped by his outer character, the person I fell in love with was an illusion.
> Can't lose someone who in reality didn't exist.


Saw this earlier and had to think about it. My issue is this. I think it is harder now, to forgive, since what I am going to have to get through is the false belief that THE ONE slipped away from me. A fantasy is harder to replace than a reality. If I believe the fantasy, how do I get over it?

Sometimes I think the answer is to go out and have ONS with anyone I can and short, intense relationships. This would show me the reality of life. It would show me where I went wrong regarding how I though I would most likely not be able to be deceived. It would help me learn.

Problem is, I was never this type of guy. I don't know how to do it and am now SCARED TO DEATH to try. It took quite alot for me to say I DO to my second wife. Hell, it took a lot for me to get in the sack with her or any woman after my first marriage. 

I wanted sex, I just didn't want the possibility of betrayal. That killed my sex drive when around other women and still does. The pain stops me from looking at other women in a sexual way. My life is in such a state of disarray, why would any woman be interested in me anyway?

I guess I cherished the thought of a wonderful marriage so much, I did not want to take a chance. I wanted to be as certain as I could. I think I did not want to be hurt as badly as I had been previously. Well, I was hurt more this time.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

*Re: Can't lose someone who in reality didn't exist*



Headspin said:


> Well yes Sara and here's the trick if only they'd manage some real honesty and unconditional remorse they'd find that they can own their own faults and weaknesses air them openly .....and move on ...
> 
> BUT of course they never will, they can't do that one simple thing - it's all too 'inner' for them. It means having to really look at ones self and reach into your inner soul to do it and admit your failings and so they will never really move on.
> 
> ...


I agree totally. 

There is a book called "in Sheeps clothing" in which they discuss the "mask of sanity" that many pathological (charming) narcissists, and psychopaths and sociopaths wear to fool people. 

One of the things that stands out to me in the emails and texts between the serial cheater OW and my cheating STBEH is that the OW continually referred to him as oh so charming. 

And, he was, he treated her the way he treated me when we first dated. 

His charm now scares me.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Sarah
> No doubt about it you really took a hit from your cheating husband. Your other posts tell me that your husband was never really serious about making amends to you and working to gain your trust. Instead he went back to cheating. That is not true remorse nor is it someone that cares more about you than his own selfishness.
> 
> I could go on and tell you how much of a sewer roach your husband is but this is not what will help you in the long run. Here is what I would like to see you consider.
> ...


I am happier NOT forgiving him. 

I think that is the point you are missing. 

I post here to share red flags with other innocent clueless spouse so that they are not duped as long as I was. 

And, that makes me feel happy. 

Also, I disagree that forgiving will heal anyone. I think the opposite. 

So we will have to agree to disagree. 

I am glad things worked out for you.

But I think you are assuming a lot of things about me that are inaccurate. 

I am already working on myself. 

And, my time here warning others is part of that deal.

Forgiving kept me in limbo or alway looking over my shoulder and distrusting. 

Not forgiving, has set me free.

I hope you consider my words. 

also, a question: If you have forgiven, why are YOU here spending energy?

And, why are you further spending energy fantasizing that I am not taking care of myself by being here. 

And, why does my being her bother you? Does it raise too many doubts in your own mind?


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> I am happier NOT forgiving him.


Somehow this makes sense to me. Use it as a motivation driver to work on yourself.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> I am happier NOT forgiving him.
> 
> I think that is the point you are missing.
> 
> ...


Actually, Sara, I have seen it myself and wondered why as well. It may not be intentional, but it SEEMS as if you have thrown my admission to having 2 EAs back at me when I have made comments on other threads. To imply that my opinion didn't matter regarding something (even if that was not the intent, that was how it came across) because I had an EA... essentially, waving off my personal experience because of something I DID, not what I am now DOING, is wrong.

So, I know you asked Mr. Blunt, but I will answer too. Why am I still here? For the same reason you stated you are: to warn people. Not to mention the fact that, for the most part, my husband has noticed this site has been a tremendous help to me, and even to US. I go to the other sub-forums as well. My husband is bipolar and has anxiety and adult ADD. I have posted on threads there as well, sharing my experiences in dealing with that.

Why am I here if I have forgiven? Simple. There are OTHER aspects of my marriage that need work as well. I have gotten advice from others, based on things they have posted and I have responded to. If you mean why do I come to CWI...well, CWI isn't just for those who have chosen to divorce, last I knew. I am here to tell those who choose to reconcile that it CAN work... but only if the wayward is TRULY remorseful and willing to put in the work. And, it can only be done if BOTH spouses want it.

I am also one of those WWs who can reach out to OTHER WWs a bit easier, sometimes... IF they are receptive. I can also tell them "this is how your husband is feeling", because I was on the BS side as well. Not a club I wanted to belong to, but here I am.

My sister is divorced and remarried. When she was still dating the man she to whom she is now married, her ex came to her and apologized for everything..for being an ass, for cheating, everything. She forgave him. And she told him that she forgave him. But she also told him it doesn't change anything. The divorce was still proceeding as scheduled, etc. But, in her own words, "it lifted a weight off [her] shoulders." She no longer carried that baggage around anymore. That's really all it does... takes the weight off your shoulders. The wayward is still responsible for his/her actions...whether you choose to divorce or reconcile. 

I don't fault you for being bitter. And even if you don't believe you are, I can see it in some of your posts. It's understandable, considering you had a false R. But, not everyone behaves as your STBXH did. Not all of us are in false R. 

Anyway, that's just my $0.02.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Actually, Sara, I have seen it myself and wondered why as well. It may not be intentional, but it SEEMS as if you have thrown my admission to having 2 EAs back at me when I have made comments on other threads. To imply that my opinion didn't matter regarding something (even if that was not the intent, that was how it came across) because I had an EA...
> 
> So, I know you asked Mr. Blunt, but I will answer too. Why am I still here? For the same reason you stated you are: to warn people.
> 
> Anyway, that's just my $0.02.


I respect your O2 and that is evidence by the fact that I am not constantly trying to get you off the board. 

Do you respect mine.

It seems that those who choose to forgive a cheater are always trying to chase non-forgivers away by making assumptions such as "you are not working on yourself" Blah blah blah. 

Personally, I think a majority of cheaters will reoffend, and that is backed up by statistics gathered from MCs and Lawyers. 

But if you chose to forgive, good for you. I have chosen not to, I hope you feel good for me.

As for mentioning your affair, IMO it as pertinent in the conversation in which you claimed ED didn't matter. Well maybe not, but something bothered you enough to cheat.

That was my only point. It is your inference that I implied your opinion did not matter. 

Do you disrespect my opinion? I could say your post implies that, but you know what? I don't really care if you respect my opinion. It is inconsequential to me. 

And whether or not you post your opinions is also inconsequential to me. 

Do as you please. I respect that.

Also, it's not polite to speak for others, so please let Mr. blunt speak for himself.

I was not addressing you.


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## Raven1983 (Aug 19, 2012)

I am in the process of divorcing my husband...he did cheat on me...numerous times...we have a 4 year old little girl...and when I first left him I hated him...I hated him with a vengeance...I wanted him to hurt as much as he hurt me...BUT after I started studying my Bible and everything I started to forgive him...and now...we are friends...I am also friends with his girlfriend...I'm a lot happier and so is my daughter...just because you forgive your husband or ex-husband doesn't mean you are a fool for doing so...the ONLY one you are hurting when you don't forgive is yourself...


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

I think it's the word FORGIVE thats part of the problem, the definition for forgive is: To excuse for a fault or an offense.
Now to excuse someone for royally f*ckin with your emotions and betraying you doesn't sound very appealing.
I really think becoming indifferent to someone is a better option for some and has the same positive effects on the body and mind.
You don't excuse or pardon the persons behaviour but learn to let go of the resentment and pain, when that happens your self worth starts to build back up because the ws and their actions has absolutley no control over you anymore and your back in the driving seat.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Saw this earlier and had to think about it. My issue is this. I think it is harder now, to forgive, since what I am going to have to get through is the false belief that THE ONE slipped away from me. A fantasy is harder to replace than a reality. If I believe the fantasy, how do I get over it?
> 
> Sometimes I think the answer is to go out and have ONS with anyone I can and short, intense relationships. This would show me the reality of life. It would show me where I went wrong regarding how I though I would most likely not be able to be deceived. It would help me learn.
> 
> ...


It was a fantasy with her, It will be a reality with someone else.
The more you move towards reality (not just a intense relationship, casual dating) the less grip the fantasy has over you.
One thing that could help is write everything you thought your marriage and wife was on a peice of paper and on another piece of paper wright down what your marriage and wife actually turned out to be, this can help your brain to compartmentalize your emotions about your wife instead of entwining them.
The less hold her actions have on you, the more self worth you will start to feel.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

*It seems that those who choose to forgive a cheater are always trying to chase non-forgivers away by making assumptions such as "you are not working on yourself" Blah blah blah. * I don't think you are not working on yourself at all. I think you are using your anger to get you through a very difficult time - and that is normal and I did that too for awhile. I think what others are noticing (I think) is that you are very angry and can't see any potential for any cheater to stop cheating or change their ways. Your advice is based on your own experiences, as is all of ours. You make good points in pointing out red flags, but discount any green flags by anyone who believes and feels that they are in true R. Yet, you did not have true R or a remorseful spouse - again - he is the idiot, not you. If I were in your shoes, I probably would not forgive either. If I chose to divorce, it would probably be because I saw no true remorse and no hope, and felt no love. In my situation, I was able to forgive because I saw potential, I saw promise, I saw the sun starting to shine again. This has been the hardest thing I have ever done - and now I can do anything. I wish I recognized my strength because of something else, but now that I have it, I'm keeping it and getting stronger every day. 

*Personally, I think a majority of cheaters will reoffend, and that is backed up by statistics gathered from MCs and Lawyers. * Most likely, but not all. 

*But if you chose to forgive, good for you. I have chosen not to, I hope you feel good for me.* If you can't, that is OK too. For those who chose to stay in their marriage, at some point you would need to forgive if you want to be happy again. You said you did forgive, and he betrayed you again. Mine did too. What I learned from that was I was not doing it for the right reasons - I was still a mess and so was he. My R has been very ugly and very hard becuase husband could not get his head out of his butt. He was pretty far gone. Perhaps that is what snapped and allowed him to finally see reality. I am sure that there are cheaters on here who have either posted or just read, that have woken up and said "WTF am I doing - who am I - what have I done"? I think those are the ones who stop and those are the few but successful either in rebuilding their marriages or who move on (maybe by choice of the BS) and have successful relationships/marriages after. Some peopel learn and others don't. You just never know. If you think about it 24X7, it will kill you. The earth could stop spinning at any second or a major earthquake could happen or a sink hole could open up underneath you - some things we have no control over - don't worry about things you have no control over. If you choose to stay with your WS - they will cheat or they will stop. Are they worth another shot or not. All you can do is make a choice, do your part, and if it doesn't work, move on knowing that you did everything you could. Some things you just can't fix and you can't change people - they have to change themselves. That is acceptance. From acceptance, sometimes forgiveness can occur - all depends on the circumstances and all depends on the individual.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> As for mentioning your affair, IMO it as pertinent in the conversation in which you claimed ED didn't matter. Well maybe not, but something bothered you enough to cheat.


First, I will say I do respect your opinion. I feel the same way toward others who have chosen your same path. It is your life, your choice. As I have said to others, in other threads... what works for you may not work for me and vice versa. I'm cool with that. 

Second, please note that I am in NO way excusing myself for cheating. I know it was wrong. I know it was stupid. I can't undo it, no matter how much I wish I could. You said something bothered me enough to cheat. Yes, but it wasn't anything sexual that did it. He was dealing with major depression (now dx as bipolar), and we were not connecting emotionally. Yea, stupid excuse, I know. It started as chatting with friends he had talked to about it, since he wasn't talking to ME about it. And, as with many EAs, that's how it turned.. little by little. And I didn't stop it. It was subtle. Again, no excuse. But, I came clean to my husband about it and we are doing better. We are communicating. We are spending time together... REAL time, now. Not just time together to have sex and go about our business.

Now, his? It was, I guess, a revenge affair. An EA. And that was what brought me to TAM in the first place. I have gotten a lot of advice and have learned how to watch MYSELF better, to keep myself from crossing that line again. I have also learned more about how to watch for red flags with him...and to address them, rather than let them fester.

So, there you have it in a (long winded!) nutshell lol.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Raven1983 said:


> I am in the process of divorcing my husband...he did cheat on me...numerous times...we have a 4 year old little girl...and when I first left him I hated him...I hated him with a vengeance...I wanted him to hurt as much as he hurt me...BUT after I started studying my Bible and everything I started to forgive him...and now...*we are friends...I am also friends with his girlfriend*...I'm a lot happier and so is my daughter...just because you forgive your husband or ex-husband doesn't mean you are a fool for doing so...the ONLY one you are hurting when you don't forgive is yourself...


Raven, I would like to clarify something. I think it would be fair to say it is more like you are friendLY with them... and it is because of your daughter that this is the case. I would think you would have completely cut him out if not for your little girl. I know you and A are not the same person, but we three are similar enough that I think you could cut him out if not for the little one, just as A would have with J if not for their kids.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

*


Raven1983 said:



I am in the process of divorcing my husband...he did cheat on me...numerous times...we have a 4 year old little girl...and when I first left him I hated him...I hated him with a vengeance...I wanted him to hurt as much as he hurt me...BUT after I started studying my Bible and everything I started to forgive him...and now...we are friends...I am also friends with his girlfriend...I'm a lot happier and so is my daughter...just because you forgive your husband or ex-husband doesn't mean you are a fool for doing so...the ONLY one you are hurting when you don't forgive is yourself...

Click to expand...

*You are strong and inspiring. Your daughter will appreciate you and get her strength and character from you too. Great job Mom  Being on friendly terms is very important for your daughter to see. Amazing


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Second, please note that I am in NO way excusing myself for cheating. I know it was wrong. I know it was stupid. I can't undo it, no matter how much I wish I could. You said something bothered me enough to cheat. Yes, but it wasn't anything sexual that did it. He was dealing with major depression (now dx as bipolar), and we were not connecting emotionally. Yea, stupid excuse, I know. It started as chatting with friends he had talked to about it, since he wasn't talking to ME about it. And, as with many EAs, that's how it turned.. little by little. And I didn't stop it. It was subtle. Again, no excuse. But, I came clean to my husband about it and we are doing better. We are communicating. We are spending time together... REAL time, now. Not just time together to have sex and go about our business.
> 
> Now, his? It was, I guess, a revenge affair.


Maricha:

You seem to have excellent insight and a good handle on your actions as well as your husband's revenge affair. 

I think you two will be okay. 

I am betting you will be.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Sarah
> I hope you consider my words.
> 
> also, a question: If you have forgiven, why are YOU here spending energy?
> ...




also, a question: If you have forgiven, why are YOU here spending energy?
We have all been hurt and I, just as Maricha, you and others want to be of some help. I do not mind at all that Maricha answered your post to me, she did an excellent job of stating one of the reasons that I am on this board in her post reprinted below:



> Originally Posted by Maricha75
> I am here to tell those who choose to reconcile that it CAN work... but only if the wayward is TRULY remorseful and willing to put in the work. And, it can only be done if BOTH spouses want it.





And, why are you further spending energy fantasizing that I am not taking care of myself by being here. 
I thought that I may pass along some information that would help you.



And, why does my being here bother you? Does it raise too many doubts in your own mind?

Where did you get the idea that you being here is bothering me? I do not have any doubts in my mind about my situation at all. I have over 43 years married to my girlfriend, we have raised three children, and we have a successful marriage. Forgiveness has been a vital part of our success. I was trying to pass along something that helped me and thought that it might help you. 

I was not trying to “…chase non-forgivers away”

Sarah, you will not be bothered anymore about by my posts that are my attempt at trying to help.

* I will not be giving you anymore “blah, blah, blah" about forgiveness.*


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## Raven1983 (Aug 19, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Raven, I would like to clarify something. I think it would be fair to say it is more like you are friendLY with them... and it is because of your daughter that this is the case. I would think you would have completely cut him out if not for your little girl. I know you and A are not the same person, but we three are similar enough that I think you could cut him out if not for the little one, just as A would have with J if not for their kids.


You're right...I would have completely cut him out if it were not for our daughter. But...again...that would have hurt me more if I had not forgiven him...and just held onto my anger and hurt...I got back into going to church and studying my Bible...and in that I realized that I needed to let go of it all...and here I am now...I think...a better person...a lot more stronger too.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Update - I told my husband just over 4 months ago that I forgave him for his actions. He has been very remorseful and depressed, not with us - with us he is very happy and thankful. He has been having a very hard time trying not to hate himself and putting himself down for what he did. 

Last night we could both sense that we each had a bad day. He is especially having a hard month because this is the month he started talking to the OW a year ago. While that is a bit of a bother to me (not a whole lot though), we had a car driving by our house several times and park a couple houses down the night before and lights shining in our windows - (turned out to be unmarked patrol car looking for kids). However - my initial thoughts raced back to when the affair all broke and I thought she might try to come to our house - I figured that if it is a tough time for him, it may be a tough time for her for other reasons - psycho reasons. That bothered me yesterday,that I even let my thoughts go there, but it was a trigger I think based on the timeframe. I figure if she were ever going to try and reach out, the next couple months might be it, so I am not letting my daughter check the mail again - just to be safe. 

So hubby and I had a good talk last night - we were open about what was bothering us as I lay against him on the couch - felt so good to be so open like that. He said it was a hard month for him because it was when he threw our lives away. I told him that I was angry that either of us would still have any thoughts run by someone else - that it was giving over control of our lives and holding us back. At the end of it, I thought - I told him I forgave him, but I never achknowledged to him that I know that if he could take it all back he would. So I told him that - and he just held me close and teared up. We watched a movie together, then he stayed up doing school work, listening to music and this morning he texted me that he was ready to start running his life again. That he was not going to hold back our family like he has been.

So just a thought - and I hope this is a giant step for him in his recovery - maybe being able to forgive is not the only way to move forward - perhaps acknowledging to the WS (who is truly remorseful) that you know that if they could take it all back they would - maybe that is just another key to recovery. 

I know so many times he asked me what he could do, cried because he wanted to take it back and couldn't - it just made sense that that achnowledgement was the next step. Just my own experience and $0.02


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## DrDavidCOlsen (Oct 7, 2012)

Forgiveness is essential both for individual health and relationship healing. What is often not understood is that forgiveness is a process. One does not simply make a decision to forgive.
Rather we enter a process. First, forgiveness does not mean minimizing the pain or pretending it did not happen. Second, the pain must be talked about and processed and not avoided. Third, the first step in active forgiveness is to stop "collecting interest on the old loan" meaning choosing to keep throwing the indiscretion of one's partner up in ever argument. Finally, it means dealing with one's vulnerability and being open to intimacy again. 
This is a very complicated process and often requires the assistance of a trained marital therapist.
DrDavidCOlsen author "The Couple's Survival Workbook",
and "The Spiritual Work of Marriage"


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## TheCrunch (Sep 3, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> WHY FORGIVE?
> 
> ...
> 
> Socially, forgiveness reduces anger and resentment and often leads to an improvement in personal relationships with family, friends and community. Forgiveness has a way of cutting through our anger, disappointment and resentment to give everyone involved a fresh start. As you forgive, you are set free from the prison of resentment. Forgiving liberates us. Only forgiveness liberates us from a painful past to a brand-new future. At the same time, those around us benefit because we are less likely to carry our anger into other situations. We are less likely to displace our anger onto those who don’t deserve such treatment.


I am uplifted to know that you found a way to forgive and now feel happier for it and also interested to know of the knock on effect your happiness has had on those around you (presumably your children if you have any). 

I understand you said that your husband was remourseful but would you say forgiveness has the same effect on the forgiver even if the other person is not remourseful?

How Forgiving your Partner can Help your Children - Children and Divorce / Warring Parents


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## jupiter13 (Jun 8, 2012)

I am sorry if this post should be somewhere else but is covers several things. 
I value all that I read here on TAM. It is where I found out I am not alone and my bizarre behavior was actually in the norm and the feelings I was experiencing was OK. I would tell you I will not or ever forgive but by your definition I have. The action of remaining in the marriage, working on the “R” and continuing the day-to -day life we have built together makes us move forward. We talk more, we revel more about our feelings and/or needs. However, I still see my marriage as nothing more than apiece of paper giving me the rights I am entitled to by definition of marriage. The contact is null and void. He will never wear my ring and I have removed mine. Where I once thought he was the man of my dreams, all I ever wanted and adored, I can no longer afford this fantasy of unconditional love existing from my childhood dreams. 
We will never have the great marriage I had planned on but it can be a good one. I will never depend or trust him completely again in fact I will never give anyone that power again. I understand why he did what he did and I understand my part in the collapse of our relationship. 
I have been subject to abuse all my life in one form or another, some extreme. I went through counseling for years and finally had put it into the past and moved on. I faced my demons, forgave and confronted others, became the person that could move through life without the fears that held me hostage. Now I am hostage again in my home and my own twisted mind. IF he chooses to stay he will have to walk through this with me and it’s going to hurt. He is going to have to face the repercussions and responsibility for his behavior and how it affects others. He has to get his own help and face his demons. He says will but I still wonder if he can. 
Yes there is a certain amount of forgiveness only because I am responsible too for my part in our relationship but he had no right to do this to me. This was personal with intention to destroy the marriage however remorseful he is he can not take it back or undo what has been done. Forgiveness is not the healing factor in your relationship now only honesty and time can heal this. Thank you for letting me say what I needed to share.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

jupiter13 said:


> I am sorry if this post should be somewhere else but is covers several things.
> I value all that I read here ion TAM. It is where I found out I am not alone and my bizarre behavior was actually in the norm and the feelings I was experiencing was OK. I would tell you I will not or ever forgive but by your definition I have. The action of remaining in the marriage, working on the “R” and continuing the day-to -day life we have built together makes us move forward. We talk more, we revel more about our feelings and/or needs. However, I still see my marriage as nothing more than apiece of paper giving me the rights I am entitled to by definition of marriage. The contact is null and void. He will never wear my ring and I have removed mine. Where I once thought he was the man of my dreams, all I ever wanted and adored, I can no longer afford this fantasy of unconditional love existing from my childhood dreams.
> We will never have the great marriage I had planned on but it can be a good one. I will never depend or trust him completely again in fact I will never give anyone that power again. I understand why he did what he did and I understand my part in the collapse of our relationship.
> I have been subject to abuse all my life in one form or another, some extreme. I went through counseling for years and finally had put it into the past and moved on. I faced my demons, forgave and confronted others, became the person that could move through life without the fears that held me hostage. Now I am hostage again in my home and my own twisted mind. IF he chooses to stay he will have to walk through this with me and it’s going to hurt. He is going to have to face the repercussions and responsibility for his behavior and how it affects others. He has to get his own help and face his demons. He says will but I still wonder if he can.
> Yes there is a certain amount of forgiveness only because I am responsible too for my part in our relationship but he had no right to do this to me. This was personal with intention to destroy the marriage however remorseful he is he can not take it back or undo what has been done. Forgiveness is not the healing factor in your relationship now only honesty and time can heal this. Thank you for letting me say what I needed to share.


I relate to what you write. It can be great....just in a different way. And it does require a leap of faith with the person who betrayed you. It took me a long time to make that leap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Quote by Jupiter13
> Now I am hostage again in my home and my own twisted mind.


Jupiter, how long have you been in R?
Your words of “Hostage” and “twisted mind” are very strong words



> Quote by Jupiter13
> Forgiveness is not the healing factor in your relationship now only honesty and time can heal this


I agree with you 100% if you mean that forgiveness is not the complet healing factor for restoring the relationship if the WS does not do what needs to be done. *If the WS does not do what needs to be done then the relationship will be either lifeless or dead.*

On the other hand, forgiveness is always a good move for YOU. You have a whole bunch of hurts that you have to deal with but you do not need resentment and bitterness towards your spouse. Your forgiveness is not a cure all for him but a freedom from bitterness and resentment in your heart. I repeat what Lookingforthesun said in the first page of this thread:


> “…because you have chosen to have a merciful heart. A heart with the power to free yourself so you can live a better life.”



*Forgiveness does not take away your right to demand proper accountability from the WS or your right to separate/divorce from the WS if they do not do what needs to be done.*


With forgiveness and with the WS doing what needs ot be done over period of time, a marriage can be successful. You have lost in some areas but you can gain some of that lost and can gain with new ones.

I also agree 100% with your words of :


> By Jupiter
> *I can no longer afford this fantasy of unconditional love existing from my childhood dreams. *
> *We will never have the great marriage I had planned on but it can be a good one.*
> *I will never depend or trust him completely again*


Very well said Jupiter!

The above is only my opinion and if anyone can achieve a GREAT marriage after the infidelity I would like to her about that. I can attest to a good one but would not be able to use the word great. However, I am open to hearing about a great one.


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