# Is it over? Should I withdraw?



## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

Sorry for the gargantuan post. Maybe some of you read faster than me. Cliff notes; I asked for an open marriage; idiot move. Discover it was a bad idea. OM2 was my best friend. She told me she needed a few days away from both of us to wrap her head around things. Turns out she's with him. I think I should be finished. Want to know if I'm blowing it out of proportion though.

Ok, here goes; ten minutes of your life is being lost if you read to the end.


My wife (let's call her Sarah) of six years has slipped or is slipping away from me. *We have two beautiful boys, 5 & 2. *

Pillow & drunk talk from me was on occasion something along the lines of "I love you more than anything *baby and I'm going to spend the rest of my life with you but I would just like it if we were both free to enjoy other lovers on occasion.". Her response was always along the lines of "You're the only man for me; I can't even imagine being with another person". * To which I would reply ~"Well I love and respect you so I won't act on any of my urges to seduce other women or accept their advances when they come."

I was 23 years old when I married my wife who was then 20. *We had been dating about two years in two spats. *The first was a short month or so until she gave me an ultimatum for exclusivity which was oddly tempered with the caveat that she had another relationship interest, a mutual acquaintance, that she would otherwise pursue if I didn't accept exclusivity. *I told her that I really liked her but that I wasn't going to accept those terms. *She became exclusive with that other interest.

We saw each other around mutual friends and eventually, six months or so later, got back together after a couple other SO's came and went for her.

A year and a half later we married after a three month engagement.

I should mention that we both cheated on each other during the year and a half period. *Myself, three times total with two women; her with one man (John, we'll call him) and twice, she said. *We talked about it before the engagement and were both able to forgive and trust again.

Early in the marriage we had some sexual troubles where I would get angry and offended at her lack of affection and intimacy. *This exacerbated her introverted tendencies. **

We mostly resolved those problems. *I self-diagnosed myself with NPD (narcissist personality disorder) and tried very hard to stop being so self centered and demanding. *Things got much better but I never really felt like I was quite meeting her needs. *She always insisted that I did.

She knew how I felt about the idea of an open marriage and I framed it in my mind less as "I want to have extramarital intimacy with other women" and more as "My wife is moderately introverted and less sexually experienced than I am, an open marriage may help her open up and discover herself more." * I thought that what we had was so strong that we would never have to worry about an open relationship causing trouble. *

She was leaving town for a week a few months ago to visit family. *(We moved from a medium sized town where she grew up, ~150,000 residents, to one of the big three major metropolitan cities in the US about three years ago). I told her before she left: "Feel free to hook up with whomever you would like while you're down there...... Except John (ref above)" and she brushed it off as silly.

When she got home a week later she was obviously and apologetically affectionate with me for the first day or so and then confessed to having been with John twice while she was away. *Caught in something of an emotional turmoil because I knew her relationship with John wasn't just a physical one, I expressed some hurt. *She thought that the experience was good for her and that it would help her open up sexually. *I acquiesced partly because I thought she was discovering herself more and also because the idea of an open marriage was appealing to me.*

I didn't really make much effort to find an extramarital partner though I wanted one. *I knew I was infatuated *with the idea of having one but my time is pretty much all spoken for between my 60 hour a week job and family.

A few weeks, maybe a month later, I realized that my wife was attracted to one of my best friends (lets call him James); I really only have two apart from my wife. *I had known for a long time that he was attracted to her. *When I suggested that they give it a try she expressed that it would be weird and a bad idea but I could tell that she wanted it. *One night the three of us were having a few drinks at his place and were winding down. *I could sense that she was hoping I would give them some space. *I whispered that to her, and she expressed agreement, so I went home to clean the house for an hour or so and then came back to pick her up.

They both really enjoyed themselves and we talked about it a few days later and agreed that repeats would be ok as long as everyone was okay with it. *

After it happened a few more times over the course of the next couple weeks, I started to feel jealous and neglected. *I talked to her about it and let her know I didn't mind it happening on occasion but that I didn't want them to be so frequent and at the expense of our time together. *We discussed maybe having her stop all together but settled on less frequency. *

Like I said, I work a lot and sometimes feel that my role as breadwinner gets in the way of my ability to take care of her so I didn't want to take something away from her that she was enjoying.

Things didn't slow down much and that really hurt. *There where several nights that I cried myself to sleep with her holding me because I felt so insecure about it and just had a feeling that he was taking better care of her than I could; I feared that they had better sexual and emotional compatibility than we did. *I expressed this to her. *She always insisted I not worry. *That I was the most important person in her life and that she loved me and would always respect our marriage first. *This emotional state for me was something new. *I had only cried once in the six years prior and that was when I lost both of my jobs in a two day period back when the economy crashed in '08.

So I still didn't put an end to it. *I trusted her and let things continue. *Not without a couple repeats of the same sobbing and consequent reassurance.

The friendship between James and I started to wane a bit at the same time that my other best friend moved out of state. *I wanted to go to James and tell him about how I was feeling but my pride got in the way. *I didn't want him to know that I was suddenly insecure about my marriage (having previously been the arrogant narcissistic a-hole that I can be) and give him ideas that he had an opportunity to sweep my wife away. *I didn't want to tell him that Sarah seemed to enjoy his company more than mine.

Sarah had a family reunion to attend, out of state again, *a few weeks ago. *The last night that we had an opportunity to spend time together before she left, I was on my way home from work and had a foreboding feeling that he was there with her. *Sure enough, as I walk up to the door his bike is parked there next to it and I peek in the window to be sure I don't walk in on something I would rather not. *They're sitting on the couch passionately kissing so I fiddle with the lock a little longer than usual.

We have a drink, the three of us, and he goes on his way. *

I sob myself to sleep again. *Wife holds me; such a disorienting feeling to have the person causing you so much pain be the one trying to console you. *

At this point I finally come to terms with the fact that something is going on that she is keeping from me. *I see a text on her phone the next day, from him to her, that reads something along the lines of "Don't worry, we'll figure this out when you get back. *Just try and focus on the happy life that you are going to have with your family". *I'm mortified.

While she is down at family reunion I come to terms with the fact that I facilitated this in many ways and that I need to put an end to what is going on.

I gave one shot at an extramarital experience a couple months back and it was so ridiculously unsatifying. *It made me realize that i really only wanted to be with my wife. *She was having a good time but it was hurting me too much. *So I decided that I should put my foot down.

I relayed that to her in a phone conversation a day or so before she returned. *She seemed surprised and happy but indicated that she had promised James that she would spend his birthday with him; about a week and a half away. *That was a pang for me. *

She got back in town and the emotional fireworks really started to fire off. *She told me that she was deceiving herself when she thought she could keep her wall up and not be emotionally involved; that she loved him but loved me more and that it was painfull for her to hurt him because she could tell he was in love with her. *

She also used this as an opportunity to lay out on the table everything that I have done wrong in our marriage and indicated that she had broken down and talked to James about those very things. *She said that James wanted nothing more than for us to be happy and well and in love.

I felt at that point like I was losing her; like she had been lying to me and hiding her feeling from me all along. *That was very disorienting,

My reaction was to dote on her more, to try and pull her closer to me. *Some days it felt like we were getting back to normal. *Other days it felt like she had checked out emotionally and that all was lost.

At this point I still considered James my best, albeit somewhat estranged, friend. *His birthday was a few days away. *They hadn't seen each other or been with one another since her return and he asked if she could spend the night on his birthday. *I told him I would think about it and right away turned to message Sarah to the effect of "James is asking me if you can spend the night on his birthday; it's making my heart sink" to which she replied "It would be easier for me to walk to work from there the next day". *And I'm thinking to myself at that point that I'm really in a mess. *I just relayed to my wife that something is causing me serious pain and her response is that she would prefer it.

I talk to her about that later. *She says she didn't mean to hurt me with it. *That she doesn't even think she will hook up with him if she does spend the night because she knows it would hurt me.

I acquiesce.

She gets home the day after his birthday. *I knew that in spite of my hopes to the contrary that they must have had sex. *She had been away from him for two weeks and I know that she loves him. *So I send her a message along the lines of "I'm guessing you couldn't resist James yesterday." and I get stonewalled. *Apparently that was a very insensitive thing to say. *I tell her when I talk to her about it later that I wasn't trying to be crass or insensitive, but that I really just expected that it would happen one last time because that's the nature or desire. *You withhold it and it's wanted more.

Come to find out they managed to make love 4 times in an 18 hour period. *

When I get home from work the next day we exchange our pleasantries and sit down to watch a movie. *Often lately, instead of pursuing the activity of the evening we will just both sit and talk about how emotionally tumultuous the past couple months have been. *This night is no different. *We pause the movie before the opening credits even finish and I talk to her about how tough it has been for me and how it feels like I've already lost her; that i knew she was in an emotional tumult as well and that i was sorry we found ourselves in this situation; that when she finally came to me to talk about the things she has been keeping welled up inside of her for all of these years I didn't even have a chance to make things right, that she had her new love already and that nothing I could do would win her back.

In conversation that night she also revealed that John (yes, the guy from before our engagement and the initiator of our open marriage) and her had not been with each other two times, like she said when she confessed to infidelity while we were still dating, but more times than she could count.

She said that she still loved me and that I am the father of her children and that she couldn't bear the thought of hurting me but that she needed some time to herself to get her head wrapped around everything that is going on; that she had talked to her friend "Zack" @ work and that they had a roommate who had just moved out and that she could stay there for a few days and that she was leaving that night.

I couldn't believe it. *I begged her to at least stay that night and spend the next few days away but she insisted. *She left.

The next day I had the sneaking suspicion that she had lied about where she was going, that she was really with James, *and I realized that I could figure out where she was by using the "find my iPhone" service that is linked to our phone account. *

Sure enough, she is at James's house.

That's 24 hours ago.

This isn't the woman I fell in love with and have spent the last 8 years of my life with. *This isn't the mother of my children. *But it is.

So this is what I'm struggling with. *I know not to underestimate the power of denial but I still love her. *I feel like I am partly responsible for bringing this on. *

I worry so much about the well being of our boys if we have to divorce but at this point I feel like the only thing I can do to protect myself is to just block her out completely. *

I could add a thousand paragraphs more. *My applause to you if you've read this far. *

What am I leaving out? *What am I not considering? What would you do? *What should I do?


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

OP,

You were indeed foolish to open your M up.

Some people can indeed handle a relationship like that, but its quite obvious that you and your W rushed into this without clearly thinking things through, discussing jealousy, setting boundaries on emotions and frequency, and all the other things that a couple who consider this lifestyle have to discuss and thoroughly talk about.

Now you are faced with the difficult task of closing your M up and establishing true monogamy.

You will have to play hardball and hope she is not too far gone.

First confront her about the lies and going to her OM's house.

Tell her lying is unacceptable in any M, and this has convinced you that the open M has to end permanently for both of you.

Either she comes home instantly and cuts off all contact with both OM's (and you will have to with your friend as well) or you will be going tomorrow to see a lawyer and start the D.

Do not give her time and space to make a decision.

If she refuses, then go file D. 

Then do a hard 180 on her. This means you only talk to her about the kids and the D proceedings. Do not show her any emotion and be short and direct in your words to her.

Expose this whole sordid story to all friends and family with the conclusion that her recent actions have proved to you the M will not survive if she does not agree to reestablish a monogamous M. You demanded that, she refused so you will be divorcing.

Unfortunately, many of these people may take the attitude that you are getting what you deserve and not try to put pressure on her to end the A and return to fix the M. But some probably will try to reach her.

You keep this course, preparing for D. Only stop and consider trying to fix this disaster if she meets all your demands on no contact and provides transparency with her phone, e-mail, etc., to prove she is keeping it.

This is absolutely the only chance I see that you can recover your M from this disaster you have unleashed with your own foolishness.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

And if she argues that this is just part of the arrangement you two had established, tell your WW that lying and deceiving, even in an open M (or maybe even more so) is an absolute dealbreaker.

Such relationships require even more truthfulness and honesty, I think, not less. 

After all, if this was simply part of the open relationship agreement, why would she have to lie, deceive, and sneak around.

She knows she is violating even the arrangement you did have, that's why she is hiding it now.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

You married too young and both of you have poor concept of boundaries in a monogamous marriage. Divorce and move on.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

life101,

I think OP stupidly rushed into an open M and pushed his W to accept his choice and now its blown up in his face when he realizes he can't handle it AND they never discussed or set proper boundaries on how it would work.

I know 3 couples who do have open M's, but they extensively discussed all of the boundaries and ramifications beforehand and neither partner was pushed into it reluctantly. 

It works for them, and I do not judge how people choose to live if it suits them and they are happy with it.

But this couple did it all wrong from the get go and now it will be almost impossible for OP to get the genie back in the bottle.

I think his only shot is to try what I told him to do, but honestly I think this is probably too far gone for him to recover.

But if he loves her and wants to give this one final shot, he's gonna have to play hardball to even have that chance.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> life101,
> 
> I think OP stupidly rushed into an open M and pushed his W to accept his choice and now its blown up in his face when he realizes he can't handle it AND they never discussed or set proper boundaries on how it would work.
> 
> ...


Yes, open marriage is possible if both partners are completely into it and honest to each other. That is not the case here. OP played with fire and certainly bit more than he could chew. In all likelihood his wife has already checked out and moved on. She is not going to put any effort in the marriage as she is likely to walk away with a large settlement now.

OP can play hardball. I will suggest he starts doing the 180. But I don't see anything here that tells me that this situation is salvageable. 

Just my 2 cents.

Edit: I also don't judge people in open marriages. It is their preference. But people need to be absolutely sure what they are getting into. This is an arrow that is never coming back.


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## Maneo (Dec 4, 2012)

this marriage is over I'd say based on what has been presented. move on and do what is best for the children in moving on. then think hard before entering into another marriage, let alone an open one.


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

Thank you for the replies and advice. Indeed, foolish.

I feel like I just need to talk myself out of the line of thinking that "the friend with the open room" was a ploy to protect my feelings; after all I was having a complete emotional meltdown and "I'm going to go stay with him" would have been quite a blow. That she really did just need a few days of breathing room.

Of course, this line of reasoning doesn't really check out. She's doing the very thing that hurts me most and even if she's remorseful about it, I can't bare the thought that the person I've dedicated so much of my life to can be so deceptive and uncaring of my feelings. 

Talking to friends and family about the choices we made and how it's blown up in my face is something I will do only when I've concluded that there is no hope (which I'm 90% sure of); it being so embarrassing and disgraceful for both of us.

I'm tempted to not even try that line of pressure out of respect for her and to protect our reputations. 

She's supposed to come home tonight. The boys are with their grandparents (my side) until Monday because it's an 80 hour work week for me and she's taking the opportunity to work full time at her part-time job. 

Rather than have her back and deal with this today I think I am going to ask her to stay away a few more days. It will give me time pick my words and maybe speak to a lawyer; I know a good one.

Thanks again for the advice and support.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

I going to be harsh. Hopefully it get through to you and stick.

You (and her, maybe?) are going to learn the meaning of fidelity, loyalty, respect, and morality the hard way. It's too bad you did not have a strong appreciation of them earlier in your life.

Your standards are too low. So are your wife's. You are feeling the results first before her because she has detached from you first.

I think the best way for you (and your kids) out of this is to decide what type of person you want to be. Then work on a plan and execute.

My suggestions are:
- raise your standards
- acknowledge you have low boundaries
- develop the intention to better yourself
- discard the past but learn from it


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

You two should have never gotten married in the first place. Aside from the stupidity of pushing for an open marriage, you two both cheated on each other a number of times prior to getting married. Face it. You are no more marriage material than she is. If you truly loved your wife, you would not have wanted to seduce another woman to bed. So now you have two boys that will most likely either 1) have divorced parents because they are both idiots and/or 2) be subjected to a life where they will end up having extra "aunts" and "uncles" to hide the open marriage. 

LOL - "Mommy is spending time with uncle Charlie tonight. I will be hanging out with your aunt Rose this weekend...".


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## ShootMePlz! (Oct 5, 2008)

The only ones I feel sorry for are the kids!!! This will effect them for probably the rest of their lives....don't fool yourself into thinking they won't/aren't effected!!! The marriage is over basically and the wife will continue her style of life after with no normal life for the kids even if all these men stay outside.


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

I am well aware of the psychological effect that divorce has on children. That's what is most scary about this. 

I never dreamed that my wife would be capable of walking away from our marriage but it feels like that's a foregone conclusion. 

I've always been a family first person. I don't really see marriage through rose colored glasses; it's a social contract and an institution that requires sacrifice and selflessness. I always thought of my wife as someone who could be trusted and the fact that she seems to care so little about the promises she's made is tough.

If it comes to divorce I think I am going to push for "birds-nest" custody for the first few years. Anyone with experience with that care to share their experience and how it effected the children?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Neither of you have ever been faithful , caring, loving, nor respectful of each other,

You've both cheated on each other many many times.

You not been in open marriage - you haven't been in a real marriage at all. Open marriages btw usually have the rule of open honesty about partners AND if your SO objects, the other partner is gone.

Your wife instead lies to you over and over.

She's cheating.

Divorce her ASAP. Nothing here to save.


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> Neither of you have ever been faithful , caring, loving, nor respectful of each other,
> 
> You've both cheated on each other many many times.
> 
> ...


We've had some amazing years together actually.

We were completely open and honest. My objections were tempered with approval and I allowed things to get out of hand.

The only big lie or cheating that has taken place has been the past few days.

I'm going to try and talk to her rationally and calmly soon and not load my conversation with pleas for for love and hope for the future. I'm going to tell her how incredibly hurt I am and apologize for the things I've done that have hurt her. I'm going to tell her that I value our family above all else and that I will do my best to do right by them whether she decides to stay or leave. But I'm not going to break down or make it about me. I'm going to tell her zero contact with James and I will never speak another word to him. 

If she's not 100% on board I will contact a divorce attorney immediately.

Again, thanks everyone. This forum is really helping me to compose my thoughts.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

OP,

The other OM has to go too.

And the marriage must be completely closed up.

That arrangement will never work for you obviously.

Make clear to your W that the closing of the M is an absolute necessity if you are to work on the relationship. If she refuses, it will be D for sure.


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

Holy f*ck a duck dude...what the hell did you get yourself into????

First of all, there is no more discussion to have. You have made your feelings completely clear about your current arrangement to your wife and she doesn't give a f*ck anymore. 

So, you either do two things...you call your "friend" and tell him the open marriage is now closed and he is to stay away from your wife and you tell your wife the same thing. She resists, in any shape or form...tell her you are divorcing her. 

Or, just file for divorce today. 

Your marriage is probably toast either way. 

Your wife doesn't need space, she just needed a night without any hassles from you about where she was. 

She has turned into a skanky little ho...at your suggestion. Quite unfortunate.


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## ironman (Feb 6, 2013)

Honestly,

does this thread even belong here? An "open marriage" isn't really a marriage ... sort of makes a mockery of the whole institution. I don't know what to call the relationship between you and your "wife" ... but a marriage? Nah.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Oh please. Drop her stuff at james place and be done with it.

You both are badly broken with zero boundaries. 

Are you both hopelessly broken? I dont know but neither are marriage material. The early cheating with john shows that on her. Even suggesting open marriage shows it on you. Open marriage is a sucker bet for a man. She can get far more partners than you with a tenth the effort.

I did read the whole thing.
No i dont want my five minutes back but all i kept thinking as imread it is jerry springer jerry springer jerry springer.


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

She'll be home in a couple hours.

In retrospect, I agree that an open marriage is a bad idea. However, at the time that I pushed for it I was making a different subjective value judgement regarding monogamy. I would think that nobody can honestly claim that they have never lusted after someone after meeting their SO. The primary potential problems that I saw were jealousy and loyalty. I was the narcissist that thought myself so secure in my relationship that I wouldn't have to worry about the jealousy, and she was so incredibly loyal in spite of the financial and emotional hardships I put her through, that I didn't think I had to worry on that front either.

At this point, all I know is that she lied to me. I don't know that she did anything inappropriate with him over the past couple days. It's entirely possible that that she resorted to his place to avoid questions from friends and coworkers. I've always trusted James and he's been one of my closest friends for a couple years. For all I know she's been set on leaving me for a couple months now and he's been the one trying to convince her that she should stay with me. 

On the other hand, my intuition tells me that she did cheat. We've been married for over six years now, though, and this will have been the first time. Remember, I brought this on with my libertine and arrogant mindset.

Perhaps i shouldn't have left out that there was one occasion a year ago and another about three years ago when I cheated. Never intercourse of any kind, but some kissing and non-genital petting when I was under the influence of alcohol.

I felt terrible about that and had to confess it to her because it weighed on me so heavily. That was a serious blow for her that I don't think she has ever fully recovered from.

So I suppose the summary is this: I've wronged her in many ways and would be a hypocrite to not offer her the same chance at forgiveness that she gave me.

The best case scenario is that the past few nights with James have been completely plutonic. Possible, but I fear not likely.

Somewhere in the middle would be that she comes home and immediately confesses or I have to confront her about it and she is repentant. Then, in turn, she agrees to the terms I set for me to continue in the relationship. This is of course what I would prefer. I love her and my children dearly. 

Worst case is an end in divorce; hurting all parties. 

I hope it doesn't come to that but I've come to terms with the fact that it is a possibility; contrary to my feelings about it a few days ago when I was willing to subject myself to whatever punishment necessary to keep our family together. Including letting her continue to keep our marriage open.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

HusbandFatherSelf said:


> Worst case is an end in divorce; hurting all parties.


Actually I think the best case is this ends in a divorce. 

Both of you need to get out of this toxic marriage, get your heads on straight, and hopefully you'll take the mistakes you made in this relationship and not make them in your next one. Good luck.


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

Jasel said:


> Actually I think the best case is this ends in a divorce.
> 
> Both of you need to get out of this toxic marriage, get your heads on straight, and hopefully you'll take the mistakes you made in this relationship and not make them in your next one. Good luck.


My children don't deserve that baggage and we've had many happy years. Everyone is dualistic in nature and capable of great good and evil. We've made some bad decisions and let each other down in many ways but stressors have the potential to make us stronger. 

You may be right that scenario 3 is in fact the best case for both of us, or one of us, or all of us. The problem is that "best" in this case is subjective and anecdotal. I feel like my respect for my family and the institution of marriage, as sullied as ours is, will ideally win the day. Whether she can get on board with that remains to be seen.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You are obsessed with having sex with others.

You quite simply should not be married. Neither of you is willing to commit to the other person - you want to keep your options open

That's called being single.

Both of you should divorce and be single again,


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

HusbandFatherSelf said:


> My children don't deserve that baggage and we've had many happy years. Everyone is dualistic in nature and capable of great good and evil. We've made some bad decisions and let each other down in many ways but stressors have the potential to make us stronger.
> 
> You may be right that scenario 3 is in fact the best case for both of us, or one of us, or all of us. The problem is that "best" in this case is subjective and anecdotal. I feel like my respect for my family and the institution of marriage, as sullied as ours is, will ideally win the day.


Your children are going to be far more harmed by mommy and daddy disappearing to have sex with other people than they will be by divorce.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

HusbandFatherSelf said:


> I would think that nobody can honestly claim that they have never lusted after someone after meeting their SO.


I lust after 100 women a week. Even if given the opportunity to do them in a closet I would not do it. I know my wife at the very least lusts after the property brothers and that Canadian guy who fixes up basements into apartments on HGTV. Lust is nothing. Its a byproduct of having hormones.

There is a massive difference between lust and acting on it.

Serious counseling needed for you both. This one is into the wow category. I do hope the best for you.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

> My children don't deserve that baggage and we've had many happy years.


Your toxic marriage and the poor relationship decisions you and your wife have made ARE the baggage. Splitting up wouldn't necessarily be baggage in itself unless you two can't do it amicably and co-parent responsibly.



> Everyone is dualistic in nature and capable of great good and evil. We've made some bad decisions and let each other down in many ways but stressors have the potential to make us stronger.


I have no idea what you're talking about:scratchhead:



> You may be right that scenario 3 is in fact the best case for both of us, or one of us, or all of us. The problem is that "best" in this case is subjective and anecdotal. I feel like my respect for my family and the institution of marriage, as sullied as ours is, will ideally win the day. Whether she can get on board with that remains to be seen.


If your respect for the family and institution of marriage is sullied why are you so optimistic that things are going to turn out for the best? It doesn't even sound like your wife is on board with the marriage anymore at this point :scratchhead:


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> You are obsessed with having sex with others.
> 
> You quite simply should not be married. Neither of you is willing to commit to the other person - you want to keep your options open
> 
> ...


I'm obsessed with it? I tried it once and hated it. Not exactly the definition of obsessed.

I'd also say that your opinion about our ability to be committed to one another, which, granted you have gleaned from a rather in depth forum post, is both contradicted and supported by the whole of our history together.



Shaggy said:


> Your children are going to be far more harmed by mommy and daddy disappearing to have sex with other people than they will be by divorce.


We definitely are not going to continue this if that is the case. We will learn our lesson or move on.



weightlifter said:


> I lust after 100 women a week. Even if given the opportunity to do them in a closet I would not do it. I know my wife at the very least lusts after the property brothers and that Canadian guy who fixes up basements into apartments on HGTV. Lust is nothing. Its a byproduct of having hormones.
> 
> There is a massive difference between lust and acting on it.
> 
> Serious counseling needed for you both. This one is into the wow category. I do hope the best for you.


I agree it's "wow", and thank you.



Jasel said:


> Your toxic marriage and the poor relationship decisions you and your wife have made ARE the baggage. Splitting up wouldn't necessarily be baggage in itself unless you two can't do it amicably and co-parent responsibly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And that's the major question; is she on board?

(No idea what I'm talking about regarding dualistic natures? Capable of good and evil? Seems pretty cut and dry to me, but then again I've read religious and philosophical texts as a hobby my whole life)

My respect for family and the institution of marriage are not sullied; just my marriage.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

HusbandFatherSelf said:


> I'm going to try and talk to her rationally and calmly soon


THis is the wrong approach my friend!
If she really gave a damn about what you had to say she would stay home and away from OM's (other men)...

Stop being a doormat and tell her like it is...YOU ARE DONE SHARING YOUR WIFE" so you will move on divorcing her and find a women were you wont make the same dumb @ss mistakes.

Sorry bro your trying to nice your way out of this and it don't work...been here to damn long to know how this sh!t turns out!

Or....

You go find a women to tell your feels too...hell the new chick might care more about your feeling then the women you have been married to for 8years.

If I was you, when the next time she comes home tell her you have a date and need her to watch the kids, AND LEAVE!!!!

Again bro you can't compete with these OM. You have to raise your sex rank and show her two can play at this game.


And ya even if you have to lie, tell her you have a girl that is now meeting your emotional needs.

Time to emotionall distance your self, you pouring your heart will only push your needy @ss further away from her. Go dark and no more " I love you's" no more asking were she is going (she'll lie anyway).

See the point here? she has to see that she is losing you...a consequence that just might make her come back....Right now my friend she has your number and has no reason what so ever to stop..CUZ YOU WILL ALWAYS BE THERE no matter how many guys take her.

This talk you want to have won't change sh1t...its the not talking that will get her to think twice in what she is about to lose. 

The only way to get her to second guess her choices is by making you not one off them.

Trust me, chicks dig confident men and this talk will only show her how weak you really are and dude that pushes chick away!

You think the OM's have these heart felt talks...hell no they tell her sweet nothing as they pull her panties down.

So go consult a divorce lawyer and leave his/her card some were were she can find it...this will bring her to you instead of the other way around!

Again your playing this all wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You seem to think that being open and honest is the be-all and end-all. It isn't. People can be honest about doing terrible things. Honesty doesn't redeem stupidity, insensitivity, selfishness, arrogance or any other bad behavior. It can help the healing, but it is in no wise a replacement or excuse for condemnable actions.

You've been hoisted with your own petard here. So what if you were honest? Your selfish desires have come back to bite you. You wanted the open marriage because of your own lust & now she's the one who is seriously with another person.

What I don't get at all is your complete discounting of the nature of human love relationships. Didn't it occur to you that you or she could bond with someone else? If you didn't want that, you should never have gone down this road.

Oh, well. I think you should cut your losses now. Get the D & try to grow up a bit more with this bitter lesson behind you.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I also think OP should file for D but I would hope that he can withdraw the filing when his old lady pulls her head out of her @ss.

OP finally has!

Having her served at James house just might be the ticket in getting her to think about what she is going to lose if she doesn't start fighting for her family.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You've both cheated repeatedly on each other. You desired an open instead of faithful relationship, she's currently cheating with a man you encouraged her to have sex with.

Why can't you see both of your history is filled with lack of repect and commitment and faithfulness ?

People who love, value, and repect the one they are married to do not cheat. It appears from your post that there hasn't been a full 6 month period in your relationship where neither of you cheated.

I'm not saying you should D her because she's cheating,

I'm not saying she should D you because you've cheated.

I'm saying you should D each other because both of your repeated actions shows that neither one of you is truly committed only to the other.


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

Thank you everyone for the input. I truly appreciate your thoughts and take them to heart.



Shaggy said:


> You've both cheated repeatedly on each other. You desired an open instead of faithful relationship, she's currently cheating with a man you encouraged her to have sex with.
> 
> Why can't you see both of your history is filled with lack of repect and commitment and faithfulness ?
> 
> ...


Apart from my kiss & pet cheating (again, twice, inebriated) we have been completely faithful for 6 years; since our wedding. Nothing she has done, apart from these last few days was cheating. And I don't even know the facts of that matter.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Didnt she cheat with the John guy?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Didnt she cheat with the John guy?


:scratchhead::scratchhead:


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

OP, 

I have read extensive amounts of philosophy on the duality of human nature.

I'm also aware of the argument that embracing and acknowledging this fact robs it of its power to dominate our lives by removing the attraction of the forbidden/taboo because it is no longer hidden in secrecy. Forbidden fruit loses some of its attractiveness because it no longer is hidden by this dark cloak of unspoken, and secret joy.

But your story is obvious evidence that while you may understand the philosophical argument, you and your W were in no way prepared for the reality of trying to embrace it as a lifestyle in the real world.

For most people, such philosophical arguments should remain mere thought processes. The do not have the self control to use them as an actual lifestyle option.

Instead of liberating themselves from the pull of their dark side by acknowledging its existence and robbing it of its secret attractions, they instead end up using their 'openness' and 'truthfulness' about human nature as a justification to follow and embrace their darker impulses.

You need to close your attempt to let this philosophy guide your life choices. It is quite clear that your self-acknowledged narcissistic tendencies do not let you do this properly.

You should do this whether you are able to fix your M or not.


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

tom67 said:


> :scratchhead::scratchhead:


Before we were married, yes. What I said to her about,feeling free to hook up with whomever she wished, apart from John, I said it in jest.


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

Dyokemm,
I agree with you 100%. I've learned it the hard way.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

You opened the flood gate; its easy to open it but never easy to close it, even if she wanted to.

Your engagement, your marriage all are lies. She cheated you with OM1, you cheated on her. She cheated on you while married to you, you cheated on her while married. Your marriage itself is a lie. What you haad is not a marriage but living together for convenience.

Dissolve the present marriage now. then live the single life for a while. Then if both feels you can have a marriage later then you can.

Get tested for STDs and I think considering her transgressions a paternity test will be good for you.


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

She'll be here soon. I'm tempted to just act withdrawn and hurt, but oblivious. Is it possible that some intel gathering would be beneficial for divorce proceedings?


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Just be clear and direct with her on your demands.

The open M ends today and forever, and you two begin the difficult task of seeing if its even possible to repair this.

Or, you go tomorrow and begin the process of filing for D.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

HusbandFatherSelf said:


> We've had some amazing years together actually.
> 
> *We were completely open and honest.* My objections were tempered with approval and I allowed things to get out of hand.
> 
> *The only big lie or cheating that has taken place has been the past few days*......


Only big lie....PLUS her sleeping with her affair-partner countless times, not twice!...lets not forget that "big lie"



HusbandFatherSelf said:


> ...
> Perhaps i shouldn't have left out that there was one occasion a year ago and another about three years ago *when I cheated*.....


...and that tid-bit of info!...where was that in the "open and honest" consideration?



Shaggy said:


> You are obsessed with having sex with others.
> 
> You quite simply should not be married. Neither of you is willing to commit to the other person - you want to keep your options open
> 
> ...


Ya, you get-off sharing your wife...never imagined she'd leave, but at the same time YOU facilitated and set the whole thing up! You were actually the catalyst for this current situation. You should get some independent counselling.



HusbandFatherSelf said:


> She'll be here soon. _I'm tempted to just act withdrawn and hurt, but oblivious_. Is it possible that some intel gathering would be beneficial for divorce proceedings?


*You want to start acting??!! WTF...Try acting like a man!*

Get a divorce, get treatment for your "hot-wife" fetish, and start moving on with your life. Maybe you could have a normal relationship one day...one day, like a very long time from now.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

She already know your hurt what could you possibly say to change that.

Actions speak loader then words.

She need to see that you will not except this anymore.

She needs to see a confident man.

The only thing you need to say when she asks whats wrong is to tell her you will no longer share your wife and walk away.

It will be her call on the action she takes next.

See....your trying to rationalize with a women that has emotional feels for another man...thats some strong crap to fight.

Your action from here on out have to get her to start thinking twice in what she is about to lose.

Sorry, but until the OM is completely out of the picture you are in a losing battle.

Your actions must show her that she will have to face a consequnence of losing you. 

Words will not penatrate her fog...


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

the guy said:


> She already know your hurt what could you possibly say to change that.
> 
> Actions speak loader then words.
> 
> ...


Its up to her whether she is going to continue to be your wife or you should start looking for her replacement.


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## TimesOfChange (Mar 20, 2013)

HusbandFatherSelf said:


> So this is what I'm struggling with. *I know not to underestimate the power of denial but I still love her. *I feel like I am partly responsible for bringing this on. *


You love her past image, the woman you knew is gone. Withdraw!


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## Carlchurchill (Jan 23, 2013)

you cannot expect a women to be engaging in piv sex with another man for extended periods and not become emotionally attached!

was she having more sex with James than with you?

you come across as well read, but this whole setup was STUPID!


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I guess things didn't go to well. I'm thinking Humpty Dumpty is all over the floor.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Chaparral said:


> I guess things didn't go to well. I'm thinking Humpty Dumpty is all over the floor.


We can put Humpty Dumpty back together.

Don't under estimate the TAM community.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

HusbandFatherSelf said:


> She'll be here soon. I'm tempted to just act withdrawn and hurt, but oblivious. Is it possible that some intel gathering would be beneficial for divorce proceedings?


So did your old lady make home last night?


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

the guy said:


> So did your old lady make home last night?


She did come home. Not a short enough story to type up on my phone. 

Heading to OM's house right now for a drink and a conversation.

I'll give details of last night and tonight later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

PHUCK THAT!!!!

See whats going on? She has a guy so your distance ( assuming you listened) just gave her room to go to OM....but at the end of the day the OM is just like all the rest.. give me some and get out and go back to your H!

Right now James is so in love...but once she become his proplem...well the tables will turn.

Thats the thing, chick are hot but at the end of the day some guy some were is tired of there sh!t. Its just a matter of time.

Remember you are still an option and when OM is done she *STILL THINKS YOU WILL BE THERE* ....

If you want to save your marriage changer her thinking and "just let her go"!!!!!

Time to take off and find your own way.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Go lift wieghts...it helped me a ton.

take down all the pics of you and her.

Go by some chick panties and leave them in the bed.

this open marriage has yet to sting her reality


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I had a long post and decided to let it go. 


You took an introverted woman, brainwashed her with your actions and now have people calling her a cheater when she followed YOUR request. You gave her permission to screw these guys.


You reap what you sow.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

philly,

Yep...he became enamored of a very complex and difficult philosophical argument and foolishly rushed into adopting it as a lifestyle, and pressured his W, who probably had even far less understanding of the true arguments/points made in the argument, into going along with him.

He's right in identifying his basically narcissistic personality as the motivation in this. It wasn't even a well-considered decision and he completely misapplied or misunderstood the principles involved.

And now it has completely blown up in his face and his M is reaping the consequences with a vengeance.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Wait whos heading to OM pad?

You or your chick?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

dude the OM is going to...... the OM and his chick are going to ........emotionaly hurt him!

I just can't


guys help me!


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Someone please send OP the artical about confronting AP


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Chaparral said:


> I guess things didn't go to well. I'm thinking Humpty Dumpty is all over the floor.


maybe your right


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

is it me or is WW and OM talking about how patitic OP is? 

WTF is he thinking?

are we new?

did we just get phucked over by our old ladies and don't see the mistakes we all have made?

Sorry folks I'm getting sideways. 

I'm sure the OM and WW will see it your way and come to terms with what you propose.


Sir, you have to do what uyou have to do and I will respect that but please understand that if this all works out it will be rare.

And if it doesn't work out, this community will support you even if you don't listen to us!!!!

Trust but verify


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

Alright, as quickly as I can get this out. (80+ hour work week this week and must be off to the tail end of it in an hour)

The day she was coming home; text conversation between OM and I:

*OM:Want to come by tomorrow after we both get out of work?*

ME: Not sure right now. I think I need a few days to get a grip on how I'm feeling. I'm sure you understand. Not sure how I'll feel tomorrow. I'll keep you posted.

*OM: I understand Brother. I hope I can help. I'm trying to.*

ME: Thanks.

*OM: This is no fun. I was for a while. Now it's brutal for everyone.*

ME: If we're lucky, things can eventually get back to normal.

*OM: At least for you all, I hope.*

Me: I hope for you too.

*OM: I told Sarah that the love she feels for her family is more important than what she feels for me. I told her to open herself to loving you again. I told her I felt my presence is an obstactle to that. I will not be an obstacle. I am sorry it has reached this point.*

Me: Thank you.​
When Sarah returned home she was all over me. "OMG I've missed you so much. You're so much more important." and innumerable other sweet nothings.

I was not accepting of these ploys and just sternly stated over and over again that our marriage was now a terrible mess, that it was going to take time for us to try and return some semblance of normalcy, and that it wasn't going to work if we couldn't be honest with each other.

I tried over and over to give her a lead into confessing what had happened over the past few days but the lies just poured out over and over and over.

It was an incredibly alienating feeling to have her laying there, so boldly lying in the context of a conversation about our future as a family and couple. Until these past few days I never realized how manipulative my wife can be.

There came a point in the conversation when I couldn't take the lies anymore. 

I didn't load the conversation with "I love you, I need you, we have to save our marriage." I told her that I knew she was lying to me about where she had been the past few days and that I knew she had spent every night at OM's house. I told her that we had only closed our marriage up the day before she left and that all of the disregard that she had shown for my feelings during the open marriage were hurtful but that this was outright cheating and betrayal. 

I told her I knew that I had damaged her greatly when I cheated years ago and that I now knew how it felt. Albeit in the case of my cheating it was confessed freely out of guilt and respect and that she had just sat there for half an hour spewing lie after lie after lie.

I told her that there was plenty of blame to go around and that neither of us had excuses. 

Then I made it completely clear that the marriage is now closed and that we were stupid to open it up in the first place. I told her there would be absolutely ZERO contact, not even a goodbye or explanation of my terms, with OM in any way shape or form and that I expected total transparency in texts, phone calls, and emails until I felt I could trust her again. I told her I would go to OM myself and explain the terms. "If there is ANY breach of these terms I will serve divorce papers the very next day. I don't want to divorce you but I will not tolerate any infidelity from this point forward."

Her response gave me hope. The thought of loosing me, which I had kept at the opposite pole until then, was too much for her and she really opened up and got on board. 

At least those were here words. And as quietly as they speak they gave me some hope that things will eventually get better. It's going to take lots of actions for me to truly believe again.

Must be off to work now. If I have a chance tonight I will update you on how things went when I visited OM last night.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Now it time for trust but verify. You have entered the detective zone.

To be honest, I thought you had lost her. Not totally convinced.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

HusbandFatherSelf said:


> She told me she needed a few days away from both of us to wrap her head around things. Turns out she's with him.


If this was an intended pun, she's very cruel.


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

Indeed it was cruel but you have to keep in mind that I subjected her to years of feelings of inadequacy with frequent requests for an open marriage. Perhaps I got what was coming to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ShootMePlz! (Oct 5, 2008)

This will not work if she can't at least be honest. Good luck trying to return to a normal monogamous marriage....she has a taste for multiple and liked it!!! She is be forced to return to just you....also not a good sign!!! Stop blaming yourself it justs makes it worse!! Either she is truly honest and onboard or kick her out...otherwise take notes and write a book!!! At least you will get something out of this!!


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Let me tell you my man, all this talk about reconciling is basically pissing in the wind. You nagged her about an open marriage. When you harped about an open marriage, you were telling her, "hey baby, I love you but you're just not enough for me. In fact, what I have in this marriage is so lacking that I'm will to let you have sex with other guys if I can get some strange stuff once and awhile." I bet it made her feel really really special when you said, "I love you more than anything *baby and I'm going to spend the rest of my life with you but I would just like it if we were both free to enjoy other lovers on occasion."
On top of that, she tried to tell you she's a one man woman and you didn't listen and kept pushing. Men seldom listen when they want something. Despite the fact she's is technically in an affair, she is proving she is a one man woman. It just ain't you Dawg. She'll choose either John or James and that will be it.


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

Confrontation with the OM last night:

I showed up at his house after work to have a drink (a lovely Pommard) and the serious conversation that needed to be had. I didn't establish the pretense that I was aware of what had happened over the past few days immediately (much the same as I did not with my wife the night prior) and we talked for a while about the mess we had gotten ourselves into.

I think that this particular case of cheating is somewhat unique in that it arose out of a relationship (theirs) that I condoned and facilitated. 

We talked about how hard things had been for me. Seeing my wife disregard my feelings about the frequency and emotionally intimate type of relationship that she was having. How I should have gone to him and put an end to it at the first sense that it was going too far. How we had had our good times and bad and how, in a way, I felt like I was getting what was coming to me.

Before I got to the point of expressing my knowledge of the actual cheating he said all of the things that I would have expected of a good friend who was truly trying to get out of the situation. I recognize that doesn't prove anything about his intentions.

There were a few points were his emotions were obviously very remorseful; tearing up and voice cracking.

He didn't seem terribly surprised when the conversation moved into a context that made it obvious that I knew about the few days prior. That was accomplished by explaining how I tried to gently ease her into confessing before confronting her formally. It was painted on his face and he expressed that he was worried she could lie to him the same way.

That was all well and fine. We both talked about how emotionally tough things had become for everyone. He relayed a conversation he had with her on her bday back in April before they had ever been with each other; when we were all just tight knit friends. She was explaining to him how she had opened the relationship with OM1 after my talking about it for so long. His response was "What a terrible idea! Someone is going to get hurt!.

I outlined my terms; that I knew I had done her wrong in many ways and that I understood how things had developed the way they had, but that I was closing the marriage completely and that there would be absoluteness no contact whatsoever. And that if there was that our marriage was over.

I tried to give him an excuse for betraying me the days prior by explaining that it had just dawned on me that I had never actually spoken the words to him that the marriage was closed; expecting that she would have shared that with him. He didn't take it. He admitted that he knew the marriage was supposed to be closed. I told him I couldn't say I wouldn't have acted the same way; I love the same women he does and if I were in his position I would betray a friendship for the same reason.

I told him that he had always been a great friend and that I wouldn't forget that but that I wasn't going to be able to get past the fact that he facilitated my wife cheating on me. 

Our parting words were, from me, that I wasn't going to see him anytime soon, if ever. 

Just a few minutes ago he sent me a message that says "F*** you both forever! You f***ed up my life!"​
I feel like a monster.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

This is just the first step. I doubt he will just go away after he thinks about it awhile and has time to rationalize taking your wife. You had better be watching these two like a hawk. They are both liars, good luck with that.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Btw, where are you now? How are you monitoring their communications?


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

HusbandFatherSelf said:


> Confrontation with the OM last night:
> 
> I told him that he had always been a great friend and that I wouldn't forget that but that I wasn't going to be able to get past the fact that he facilitated my wife cheating on me.
> 
> ...


This guy has not really been a friend for awhile. He thought that having you over for a drink that he could con you into giving her back to him on some basis. This is a cancer that must be cut out of your lives. I bet he will contact her and you and her need to plan for what you want her to do when he does. I've never seen an open marriage ever work, but that is water under the bridge at this point. You two need to get into counseling and figure out how you can get the train back on the tracks. It will be a tough row to hoe, but can be done, but it must start with straightforward and brutal honesty on both your parts. Best wishes to you and your family.


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## RoninJedi (Jun 22, 2013)

I am sorry, but what the hell is wrong with you?

Forgive me for being so harsh, but your biggest issue is the fact that you have two brains but only enough blood to operate one at a time, and when you proposed this whole "open" thing, you were using the wrong one.

What made you think that Mom and Dad having sex with other people could maintain a healthy atmosphere for your kids? Did you graduate Magna Cum Numb Nuts? You destroyed your children's home because you wanted free reign to explore other vaginas and thought it would be okay.

How'd that work out for ya? Good?

I'm sorry, and I'm done throwing stones now. In all honesty there is nothing here to salvage. Neither of you know the first thing about being married, open or otherwise. You're too selfish and immature. Both of you should seek individual counseling immediately because your priorities are horribly out of whack.

Your actions are not the problem, they are the symptom.

I am indeed sorry that your marriage has dissolved like it has, but the simple fact is that it was your doing. Now the only thing you can do is pick yourself up and move on - get into counseling and learn how to set things right in the future so you can be an example to your boys, because I sincerely doubt you want your sons growing up to follow in these particular footsteps.

Get up, move on, and for God's sake learn a freakin' lesson from this so that your children *never* have to go through something like this again.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You do realize they will hook up again in the next couple of weeks right?


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> This is just the first step. I doubt he will just go away after he thinks about it awhile and has time to rationalize taking your wife. You had better be watching these two like a hawk. They are both liars, good luck with that.


I was on the verge of catching her in a lie tonight. One I couldn't be sure was. But, she confessed it right away. A disquieting and promising sign at the same time.



Chaparral said:


> Btw, where are you now? How are you monitoring their communications?


I was home, fresh from work. Watching her whereabouts via tracking on her cell phone. She sent me a message telling me where she was going; after-work drinks at a bar close to her work because it was a going away for their general manager and one of her friends. She told me she would love my company so I decided to go there. Didn't rush out and didn't give her any indication of when I would arrive.

When I did get there, OM was standing at the bar; not near her or her or her group of friends. 

I ignored him as I passed to greet everyone.

When I got to her she told me she was really freaked out that he was there, that she didn't know he would be there, and that he had just gone through the whole crazy story with a friend of hers.

We sat down and started chatting with everyone.

When she got up to go to the bathroom he came and sat next to me. I tried to play off the situation and put my hand out for him to shake but he left it hanging. Everyone obviously felt quite awkward.

When she got back she walked over to the bar to tell the bar tender that the ladies room was out of toilet paper.

I didn't notice him get up and walk over to corner her. 

People at the table asked me "What's that guys problem?"

I told them it was a longer story than I cared to share and that it was OK.

Then one of her girl friends looked over at me and asked if she should help her escape. (this girlfriend knows the situation) Of course I agree she should. She walks over and says "OMG Sarah, I totally would love to go have a cigarette with you right now! " and they escape. 

OM goes back to brooding by himself.

The girls come sit back down with us.

Sarah says she wants me to come out and have a cigarette with them. I go.

When we get out there she starts to explain how the day had gone. He sent her several text messages and an email and was obviously pushing to show how desperate he was to keep her. She hadn't replied to any of them.

We agreed that it wasn't a good idea to stick around. I went inside, grabbed her purse, and settled the tab. 

He followed me out.

While we were saying goodbye to the couple friend who were outside with her he says "You can't not talk to me, I'm a person, I'm standing right here."

She doesn't respond and tucks her head into my shoulder.

We make it obvious to the others that we must abruptly leave, that something is wrong. He follows us and _wife says that he just wants to talk to her_.

I say "Fine, we're right here; talk."

He: "Why can't I just talk to her?"

I say "Because it's f****ing bulls**t that you show up here and disrupt our evening. I made it completely clear that you were not to talk to her at all. And she's torn and conflicted and you are making it worse."

He yells "something something something... I'm about to go f****ing kill myself" and storms off.

We cab home and wife spends the next 30 minutes thanking me for handling it the way I did and apologizing for what a mess she has us in.

I continue to tell her that I appreciate the words but that they aren't necessary; "Where your heart is will bare itself out in the future and whatever that turns out to be, I'm prepared for it."



VFW said:


> This guy has not really been a friend for awhile. He thought that having you over for a drink that he could con you into give her back to him on some basis. This is a cancer that must be cut out of your lives. I bet he will contact her and you and her need to plan for what you want her to do when he does. I've never seen an open marriage ever work, but that is water under the bridge at this point. You two need to get into counseling and figure out how you can get the train back on the tracks. It will be a tough row to how, but can be done, but it must start with straightforward and brutal honesty on both your parts. Best wishes to you and your family.


You can see above that your prediction came about sooner than we expected. 

While she was thanking me for handling it the way I did I told her that she was lucky I was there that time. That he's desperate, that I won't likely be there next time he tries to make contact, and that she needed to mentally prepare herself to just tell him to leave, block him out, and not get involved with it. 



RoninJedi said:


> Your actions are not the problem, they are the symptom.
> 
> I am indeed sorry that your marriage has dissolved like it has, but the simple fact is that it was your doing. Now the only thing you can do is pick yourself up and move on - get into counseling and learn how to set things right in the future so you can be an example to your boys, because I sincerely doubt you want your sons growing up to follow in these particular footsteps.
> 
> Get up, move on, and for God's sake learn a freakin' lesson from this so that your children *never* have to go through something like this again.





Shaggy said:


> You do realize they will hook up again in the next couple of weeks right?


You may both be right. We'll find out soon.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Ummm, even my relatively mild mannered self would have decked this sucker by now. You have so many opps and ways to claim any sort of defense, surely. Little less conversation a little more action....


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Om believes your wife loves from her actions to date. She just got back from his place and lied about it. He knows she has been lying to you and he thinks she is virtually your prisoner and he will save her.

You can buy the $50 dollar sony vars at bestbuy and walmart. You need at least two, one velcroed in her car under the front seat and one or more in the house where she is likely to call him. 

It just seems like she has come out of the fog in record time, unbelievably fast.

Do some family stuff today if you possibly can. Call in to wok if you have to and take some time off.

Time for hysterical bonding.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

How did he know that she would be at that bar?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

bfree said:


> How did he know that she would be at that bar?


Yes you need to know that. And see if you can ask your friends what went on before you got there.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Get her a new cell phone number and have to old one sent to your phone.

You want to be intercepting the messages he will barraging her with.

Because eventually she will crack and think if she just talks to him a little that he will go away. We both know this isn't the care.

He's seen her choose him over you. She just spent days in his bed after lying to you. In his head , he is the one she chooses over you, but she's just too afraid of you to admit it. So in his head he just needs to rescue and free her from you. And he will it when she arrives at work, at work, when she gets off work.

He may have found her at the bad because she told him, OR because he followed her there.

You might want to drive her to work and pick her up for the next couple weeks.

He's going to be emailing her too, and likely send gifts.

I messed it, but how old are all of you? You sound under 25.


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> Om believes your wife loves from her actions to date. She just got back from his place and lied about it. He knows she has been lying to you and he thinks she is virtually your prisoner and he will save her.
> 
> You can buy the $50 dollar sony vars at bestbuy and walmart. You need at least two, one velcroed in her car under the front seat and one or more in the house where she is likely to call him.
> 
> ...


I would love to take the day off and spend time with the family but unfortunately I'm the manager at my place of employment and there really isn't a way to make that happen.

It does seem like things turned around unbelievably fast. I don't know that they really have; only time will tell. We can keep in mind that the cheating only started a few days ago (until then their relationship was condoned) and that I figured it out in a matter of 18 hours and confronted her with it at near-first opportunity. 

I'll look into the Vars. Thanks for the tip.



bfree said:


> How did he know that she would be at that bar?


There are only a couple of places that we hang out really and he lives walking distance from them. 



Chaparral said:


> Yes you need to know that. And see if you can ask your friends what went on before you got there.


I called and spoke to her general manager, whom the night out was for, this morning. He's a married and mature adult and I have known him as an acquaintance for a year and a half. We are both managers in the same company; different locations.

Sarah said this morning, when I asked her to explain in more detail exactly how she left work ect., that she and he left at the same time and walked over to the bar together along with another coworker. She said that there had been no sign of OM until just a few minutes before I arrived at the bar.

I probed for this same scenario with him. He said that they indeed did walk over to the bar together, that there was no sign of OM at that time, and that the first he saw OM @ the bar was when he came over and awkwardly sat next to us. 



Shaggy said:


> Get her a new cell phone number and have to old one sent to your phone.
> 
> You want to be intercepting the messages he will barraging her with.
> 
> ...


I'm 29 and she is 26. 

I like the phone-number-change idea. I'll work on that.

Indeed that is exactly what he is thinking and both her and I know it.

He sent her 4 more desperate emails last night while she was sleeping. None more than just a sentence; pleading for her to talk to him, saying she couldn't do this to him, that he couldn't handle it.

I still haven't really warmed back up to her. She know's we're in limbo. She's been saying all the right things but acknowledges it is going to take time for me to trust again.

I'm not constructing hopes that everything is going to work out fine. Just taking it one moment at a time.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Consider looking into a restraining order based on harassment. Talk to a lawyer about what's required.

C


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

PBear said:


> Consider looking into a restraining order based on harassment. Talk to a lawyer about what's required.
> 
> C


Yes. We actually talked about that this morning. I have a lawyer in mind. I'll call him tomorrow.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

HusbandFatherSelf said:


> I wasn't going to be able to get past the fact that he facilitated my wife cheating on me.
> 
> 
> [/INDENT]
> ...


You should. He didn't facilitate anything you did. You set ZERO boundaries and are surprised she went to him? You've been pushing her away for your entire relationship. I do laugh that you keep trying to blame it on booze. I'm surprised no one called you on it. We are quick to way lay women that use it as an excuse.

You better not tell her his reactions. She gets wind of that and your choice may be taken out of your hands.


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You should. He didn't facilitate anything you did. You set ZERO boundaries and are surprised she went to him? You've been pushing her away for your entire relationship. I do laugh that you keep trying to blame it on booze. I'm surprised no one called you on it. We are quick to way lay women that use it as an excuse.
> 
> You better not tell her his reactions. She gets wind of that and your choice may be taken out of your hands.


I do not "blame it on booze". I don't use alcohol as an excuse. There is no excuse. I made poor decisions. I take full responsibility for those decisions.

I have sometimes been an emotionally abusive husband. I have sometimes been the opposite. The realization that I have narcissistic tendencies that hurt the loved ones in my life is something I came to realize on my own. I have worked very hard at suppressing them and becoming a better person.

However, the emotional and sexual struggles that W and I have had, outside of this whole open marriage and infidelity mess, are the fault of both of us. 

I was selfish and wrong in so many ways and it may very well be that she should have left me years ago.

On the other hand, Sarah was an emotionally damaged person when we met. I knew that and loved her anyway. I knew that she had a history of serial affirmation seeking and some infidelity. She never left one man without having already courted another. Her family life up until the time she met me was not something I would wish on anyone. Her older sister (same mother, different father), by 16 years, was the daughter of a sexual predator who severely abused her and her mother and was later murdered. Her mothers second husband was a _severe_ alcoholic and deadbeat dad who kept only a part-time or odd job if at all. Her mom was forced to work long hours outside of the home for their entire lives and needless to say she has severe issues of her own. (owing to her previous marriage, drugs, and who knows what else) 

Those issues are often reflected in Sarah and I've done my best to be patient, kind, loving, and try to help her understand herself better and grow. She's thanked me countless times throughout our M for the way I have patiently loved and supported her in spite of her issues.

Sometimes I've been very selfish and forgotten who I am. It's as simple as that. No excuses.

I didn't push her away in a vacuum. Sometimes it was her not letting me in for deep seeded issues that I couldn't control.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Have the two of you worked on a NC letter (a letter written together and sent together to OM)

The NC letter should include how much better her husband is then the OM and what a bad choice your wife has made. Denoucing the affair and the OM and her actions.

See this latter has to hurt the OM and condemn the affair from your wifes words.

So often the NC letter turns into an apoligy letter were in fact an effective letter puts shame on both your wife and the OM for the adultory.

The NC letter makes your wife and the OM face the reality in what they did was all wrong.

The facts are she is married, the OM took another mans wife....there are no other ways about it.....

It pisses me off when OM and /or WW think they diserve some sort of bull crap clousure when what they did broke a vow and in some states laws..... 

This is a must!


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Hopefully this stalker behavior, the angry and then suddenly suicidal outbursts, and the constant neediness this guy displays will scare your W a little.

I doubt either of you knew about this instability until the past couple days.

I don't know your W, but I can tell you that all the women I do know would be a little freaked out by this guy.

They certainly wouldn't be attracted to it.

If your W feels the same, it will be a good step towards ending the connection between the two.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

After the NC letter the *both* of you need to work really hard in affair proofing the marriage.

Usually I just make a statement were the wayward has to affair proof the marriage but in this case I think the word "both" applies!


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Dyokemm said:


> Hopefully this stalker behavior, the angry and then suddenly suicidal outbursts, and the constant neediness this guy displays will scare your W a little.
> 
> I doubt either of you knew about this instability until the past couple days.
> 
> I don't know your W, but I can tell you that all the women I do know would be a little freaked out by this guy.


Hell thats why WW went back home...her AP was nuttier then her old man!


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Chaparral said:


> Now it time for trust but verify. You have entered the detective zone.
> 
> To be honest, I thought you had lost her. Not totally convinced.


I didn't!

But it does need to be said..."trust but verify"

This sh1t ia addicting..especially now that is has to be ultra secret..it makes it more of a thrill.

Again more boundries and make a plan to affair proof this marriage.

VAR is a must..in this case

As you stated her lies and manipulation are why behond what you thought of her to be capable of.

It sucks but now being a memeber of the cheaters police you have your work cut out for you.

If your lucky it will all pan out and her words will meet her actions and in a years time your survilence will prove she is now being honest.

I pray that in time you learn and be the man...the only man your wife needs. So may I just add that you have been some what bete until now.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Although you say she just started cheating, that's just semantics. She and posom have been bonding for quite awhile. Be very, very wary. In other words, be very, very wary.

Lol


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

I'll tell what it sounds like the me HFS. You wanted and "open" marriage and figured you'd be getting all the side action. You thought the old lady, being "mildly introverted' as you put it, wouldn't jump it. Unfortunately, she's a little more froggy than you anticipated. Now she's getting all the action and you're standing there with your hat in your hand thinking, " this ain't the way it was suppose to go".
As far as your buddy goes, the one you confronted, do you really believe he gives a rats azz? You're the one who wanted your wife to go down that road. He just took advantage of something that was offered with the husband's apparent approval. Something for you to remember in the future Dawg... when you want an open marriage an average looking woman is gonna get laid way more than good looking man. Don't feel bad. I've seen a number of open relationship and the man always comes out on the short end of the stick. Hears a song that explains it. It reminds me of your situation.

Gene Watson - Raisin' Cane In Texas - YouTube


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

VFW said:


> This guy has not really been a friend for awhile. He thought that having you over for a drink that he could con you into give her back to him on some basis. This is a cancer that must be cut out of your lives. I bet he will contact her and you and her need to plan for what you want her to do when he does. I've never seen an open marriage ever work, but that is water under the bridge at this point. You two need to get into counseling and figure out how you can get the train back on the tracks. It will be a tough row to how, but can be done, but it must start with straightforward and brutal honesty on both your parts. Best wishes to you and your family.


The truth.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> I'll tell what it sounds like the me HFS. You wanted and "open" marriage and figured you'd be getting all the side action. You thought the old lady, being "mildly introverted' as you put it, wouldn't jump it.
> 
> 
> she's getting all the action and you're standing there with your hat in your hand thinking,
> ...


Pearls of wisdom.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

HusbandFatherSelf said:


> I was on the verge of catching her in a lie tonight. One I couldn't be sure was. But, she confessed it right away. A disquieting and promising sign at the same time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No more GNO.

No more happy hours after work without you there.

Some people never show the ability to learn and mate protect.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

This is a much about her having a second relationship with the OM even more than the cheating after you tried to cut it off.

OM is now stalking you.

So one of the things you didn't think about is just what kind of person would accept being the secondary in an open relationship. Such people have been unable to find a relationship in which they are a primary and so have accepted being a secondary person.

Sorry, but that is just not going to attract good, kind, stable people.

The OM here clearly sees his rank rising to primary status. Her ditching you to go be his sex kitten for a couple of days proved that to him, he was moving up in rank. Now, he's prepared to fight because he doesn't want to return to looser status.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> The OM here clearly sees his rank rising to primary status. Her ditching you to go be his sex kitten for a couple of days proved that to him, he was moving up in rank. Now, he's prepared to fight because he doesn't want to return to looser status.


If the other man knows what he's doing, he won't be returning to loser status. He's probably thinking to himself, "hey, she comes to me. If that makes me a loser, what do you call her old man."


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> If the other man knows what he's doing,* he won't be returning to loser status*. He's probably thinking to himself, "hey, she comes to me. If that makes me a loser, what do you call her old man."


I think in this situation there is no winner status....


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Put it like this. If my wife came to me with the proposition of an "open marriage", I'd be seeking out a replacement.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> Put it like this. If my wife came to me with the proposition of an "open marriage", I'd be seeking out a replacement.


See, I think that's what she was doing with his permission. Sounds like he never talked about emotional attachment, emotional fulfillment and boundaries with an open marriage.


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

You can block his number now on her phone. Keep monitoring the email and if he says in the email that he is going to kill himself, take it to the police. This lets will get a visit and realize that he can't use the threat again without repercussions. You should have he log in for email to review and delete these messages, she should leave them unopened. If he sends to her work email address, she needs to mark them as spam (unopened). She needs to be warned that he will show up at her work or follow her to lunch (something) to talk to her. You need to advise her of this and that this is not a sign of love, but manipulation. He is not a friend to either of you, he does not respect your marriage or either of you. He is selfish and just wants what he wants, both of you be d***.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

You know OM well enough to know who he respects most and admires.........that person must be exposed to the affair and in doing so ask this person for there support for your marriage and intervene on your wifes and your behalf to make it clear that the sanitate of marriage is behond the OM needs or want for someone elses wife.

Be it OM's dad, brother or friend you might want to think about who would have the greatest impact to OM if this person also confronted him.

This exposure should be done by both you and your wife so this person can not deny the objective here.

Again find that person OM respect the most and expose this to them by asking for their support!


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

the guy said:


> You know OM well enough to know who he respects most and admires.........that person must be exposed to the affair and in doing so ask this person for there support for your marriage and intervene on your wifes and your behalf to make it clear that the sanitate of marriage is behond the OM needs or want for someone elses wife.
> 
> Be it OM's dad, brother or friend you might want to think about who would have the greatest impact to OM if this person also confronted him.
> 
> ...


I disagree. He had permission to have sex with his wife. SHE crossed a line by lying. The OM could just as easily tell everyone and have this backfire in a ridiculous fashion. I am actually waiting to see if we get the whole story when the [email protected]# hits the fan.

This is one of those that could be very polarizing amongst friends and family. 

I'd go with the harassment route VERY carefully.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

OP, open the door for her and do not let her return. She is replaceable... without a doubt. 

Then again, so are you as she has shown. You also need a better friend.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I disagree. He had permission to have sex with his wife. SHE crossed a line by lying. The OM could just as easily tell everyone and have this backfire in a ridiculous fashion. I am actually waiting to see if we get the whole story when the [email protected]# hits the fan.
> 
> This is one of those that could be very polarizing amongst friends and family.
> 
> I'd go with the harassment route VERY carefully.


Permission or not, the dumb @ss OM fell for a chick that was married and in addition lied to be with him!!!!

Phuckin POSOM diserves what he gets!

What the hell was he thinking? He was invited into a marriage and took advandage...when her should have shut his mouth banged the guys wife and left it at that...in stead he wanted more from something that was never there.


Hey, I doen't even aggree with my own statement here, but it needs to be said that the dumb @ss OM is a nut job and OP and WW are reaping what they sowed.

Again who falls for another guys wife who has the moral compass of a dead wieght. Ya I want to bring home some chick my friend shared with me.

No Offence OP you love your chick, but my point is your friend is a bunny burner and now you guys are phucked


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

So what was today's move by the OM?

1. Waiting for her at work?
2. Flowers?
3. notes and a gift


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> So what was today's move by the OM?
> 
> 1. Waiting for her at work?
> 2. Flowers?
> 3. notes and a gift


Assorted chocolates? A gift card to a day spa? Or the no tell where you pay for 3hrs. Nnnnot that I ever did that.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Speaking of "moves" I wonder who made the 1st move to begg for the relationship? Op or OM?

Something tells me OM was the bigger wuss in wanting more then WW had to offer. I bet if OP got to WW 1st and had the beta talk that turns chicks away she would be with OM....but no OM had the beta talk and mad WW run!!!!!

Sorry, but I think TAM was planting seed and when she came home after talking with OM she saw the more confident male and in the end buried her head in your shoulder instead of his.

You got luck the POSOM was such a dumb @ss...you could have lost your old lady....don't let it happen again...the both of you need to learn the tools to affair proof your marriage.

In a few years she will get another itch..let her know that you will not control her but you will protect your marriage and if she will not except this protection she is free to leave so you can protect your emotional health.

You can't control your wife but you can control your emotional health by having boundries and consequences for when those boundries are crossed.

Don't ever do this again your old lady isn't built for it!


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

the guy said:


> Permission or not, the dumb @ss OM fell for a chick that was married and in addition lied to be with him!!!!
> 
> Phuckin POSOM diserves what he gets!
> 
> ...


The same guys, that post here, who admit they married a girl who was "breaking up" with her man. Then they found out they were actually the affair partner. Yep, a few were friends like this one and ran in the same circles. This is the first where he had permission, but it doesn't mean the gas-lighting from the wife was any different. She left the OP, lied about where she was and it was at all on the pretense that their marriage was in trouble. Even if she was confused, she chose the OM's bed over staying home and working it out with her husband. Yet, you believe there was nothing there for him to mistake?

Okay, We will disagree again. 

I don't think he was taking advantage at all. The overreaction of the ex-friend, the act his wife is putting on and what the OP has written makes me believe he stopped her from leaving just in time. As someone said earlier, he better watch her like a hawk.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

We agree
I'm just the guy that thinks outside the box.
Hell I'm wired different then most, but all you normal guys make commen sense when it comes to this crap.
I'm just adding fuel to the fire and adding perspective were none can be added.

Again I'm just adding food for thought. 

Even if a newbie is reading this thread I have to be the crazy guy! LOL

something to just think about no matter how far fetch it may seem.


My gut tells me OP's chick needs a alpha male to take charge and hopefully OP learner what kind of responsablity he has in leading his family in the right direction!

I come to this conclusion on the simple fact that both guys were willing to beg for her and the bigger begger got turned down.

Validating my thinking that chicks dig confident men!


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

In addition, let me add that after this experience you can never be labeled controling but *protecting*!!!!


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

the guy said:


> We agree
> 
> 
> I come to this conclusion on the simple fact that both guys were willing to beg for her and the bigger begger got turned down.
> !


LOL. Yes, we do.


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> See, I think that's what she was doing with his permission. Sounds like he never talked about emotional attachment, emotional fulfillment and boundaries with an open marriage.


We did have talks about emotional attachments with other partners before she even started with OM. Our conclusion was that there would inevitably be emotional connections and that we simply needed to consciously control primacy. 



Shaggy said:


> So what was today's move by the OM?
> 
> 1. Waiting for her at work?
> 2. Flowers?
> 3. notes and a gift


OM has been off the radar ever since the day after the previously described incident. He made no attempt to contact her after the four desperate emails that night. He did have conversation with me the next day via text message:

*OM: Just to reiterate: F*** you forever. May your decisions haunt you always, and may you never find happiness again. You f***ed up my life. All I wanted was to say goodbye to her. I told her to go back to you, you selfish ****.*

Me: You betrayed me. I shared the most wonderful part of my life with you and you betrayed me. You brought this whole sordid mess into a public place and disrespected and embarrassed both of us. Next time I feel you encroaching on our attempt to pick up the pieces we will file a harassment restraining order against you and reveal this entire story to your family. Your words were reassuring the other night but your actions tell me that you are selfishly lashing out to regain what you had.

*OM: F*** you and your ultimatums. Next time you f*** your wife, remember you can never satisfy her the way I have; you are incapable, impotent.*

Me: You hold onto that sweet reassurance. It's good for you. You'll need the confidence later when you're hopefully trying to win the love of someone who doesn't have children and a husband.

*OM: I didn't have to win her love, it was there for the taking  She wanted to go. I sent her back to you. Never forget that.*

Me: Why thank you Saint James. I'm sure you would never have touched her again.

*OM: Because you trust your wife? Is that why you believe what you believe?*

Me: I have wronged you in no way whatsoever but if you keep this up, I promise you I will.

*OM: You have wronged yourself, your children, your wife, your lovers, and me! Don't fool yourself. See you never!*

Me: I sure hope so.​


the guy said:


> Speaking of "moves" I wonder who made the 1st move to begg for the relationship? Op or OM?
> 
> Something tells me OM was the bigger wuss in wanting more then WW had to offer. I bet if OP got to WW 1st and had the beta talk that turns chicks away she would be with OM....but no OM had the beta talk and mad WW run!!!!!
> 
> ...


The beta talk was what sent her into his bed after closing the marriage in the first place. I recognize that now thanks to the great advice I've obtained here. I do greatly appreciate it.



phillybeffandswiss said:


> The same guys, that post here, who admit they married a girl who was "breaking up" with her man. Then they found out they were actually the affair partner. Yep, a few were friends like this one and ran in the same circles. This is the first where he had permission, but it doesn't mean the gas-lighting from the wife was any different. She left the OP, lied about where she was and it was at all on the pretense that their marriage was in trouble. Even if she was confused, she chose the OM's bed over staying home and working it out with her husband. Yet, you believe there was nothing there for him to mistake?
> 
> Okay, We will disagree again.
> 
> I don't think he was taking advantage at all. The overreaction of the ex-friend, the act his wife is putting on and what the OP has written makes me believe he stopped her from leaving just in time. As someone said earlier, he better watch her like a hawk.


Indeed. 



the guy said:


> We agree
> I'm just the guy that thinks outside the box.
> Hell I'm wired different then most, but all you normal guys make commen sense when it comes to this crap.
> I'm just adding fuel to the fire and adding perspective were none can be added.
> ...


Things we innately know but fail to put into practice. Thank you very much for the great advice!


Update: Things seem to be going very well. We've had hysterical bonding for the past few days. The sex has been some of the best we've had in years and it's frequency is beyond anything that's ever happened in our marriage. 

She still doesn't know that I GPS track her with her phone but all of her reporting of her whereabouts and movements checks out. She's been very remorseful and not tried to excuse her actions in any way. She knows how much damage she's done to my trust for her so she understands that it's going to take time to restore it. 

Such an emotional roller coaster this past week has been. Emotionally exhausting indeed.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Man,

This POS is a true nutbag.

How did OP ruin his life by allowing POS to f his wife? My take is that OP almost destroyed his own life with his foolishness, but I don't see how this dirtbag was impacted at all.

And what kind of psycho stalks a woman for 'closure'? Especially as he's claiming that he sent her back to her BH to save her M?

Wouldn't him sending her back be an act of closure if this bs was true?

Watch out for this a**wipe. He is very unstable.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Do not trust him goes without saying. Do not trust your wife either. Spider sense says, other shoe has not dropped. Leave nothing to chance.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

HusbandFatherSelf said:


> We did have talks about emotional attachments with other partners before she even started with OM. Our conclusion was that there would inevitably be emotional connections and that we simply needed to consciously control primacy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At the end you should have told him "are you done?"


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Has she finally admitted she did sleep with him AFTER you closed the marriage?

By the way. If you need, My avatar IS a Sony ICDPX312 VAR. The best combo of battery life and audio quality. No I dont work for Sony. Use lithium batteries btw.


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> Has she finally admitted she did sleep with him AFTER you closed the marriage?
> 
> By the way. If you need, My avatar IS a Sony ICDPX312 VAR. The best combo of battery life and audio quality. No I dont work for Sony. Use lithium batteries btw.


Indeed she did admit it the first night she came home when I confronted her about staying there the past three nights. 

I'm reading the MMSP and doing the MAP now. Our sex life, general intimacy, and interactions seem better than they have been in years. 

I'm tempted to stop monitoring her. Most of the time I feel like the trust between us has returned but occasionally I have a pang of panic when my justified paranoia kicks in. Better safe than sorry.

Reading the MMSP and threads on this site have really opened my eyes to things I have been doing to damage our relationship over the years.

We'll see where it goes.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Keep spying for now.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Chaparral said:


> Keep spying for now.


Keep watching for a long while and when you do stop, slowdown don't just go cold turkey. A number of people here have taken a year to catch the underground affair that didnt fully stop or started back up.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Trust but verify...for now.

My old lady has been checking out and her actions have rebuilt some trust.

Its just those few years are tough and as long as she keeps checking out and all is good you will see the "spying" start to fade.

I am currently semi retired from the cheater police and it has been over 3 years since d day.


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

Farewell hope. STBXW on her way home from OM's house now. Thanks everyone for the excellent advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

HusbandFatherSelf said:


> Farewell hope. STBXW on her way home from OM's house now. Thanks everyone for the excellent advice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Once that door is opened, there is never any closing it. Sorry man.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Damn


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Be cold and direct with her when she gets home.

Tell her you closed the M and she went to f this POS anyway.

Then she came back and agreed to the closing and to work with you on fixing things in your M.

Now, for the second time she has run off to this p***k.

Tell her that you are done with her and will be filing D with the lawyer ASAP.

Then go dark communicating with her. Only discuss kids and the D proceedings.

Expose the A, including the whole sordid story, to friends and family (including POS's) to explain why the D is occurring. Admit your own stupidity in this, but tell them when you tried to reach out to her to begin fixing the mistakes, she decided TWICE to run to this POS.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

I expected it but not this soon. Move on with your life man. There wasnt a marriage for both of you from the beginning. Now ended completely.

What ever her excuse for doing this, Give her the D papers.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

HusbandFatherSelf said:


> Farewell hope. STBXW on her way home from OM's house now. Thanks everyone for the excellent advice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was hoping I was wrong, for your sake, but the OM's reaction made me worried for the outcome. You said no contact, she broke it again, you should move on. Remember how you feel now, respect yourself and respect your partner. Also, stay single and get the multiple partner stuff out of your system.

Good luck.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Is anyone really surprised?

There is only one way to close Pandora's box HFS and that is to hand her Divorce papers as a consequence.

It sucks but it needs to be done. Maye she will see the light, maybe not.

But you opened the box and only you can close it. With her or without her.

Time to show her those consequences.

HM


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Is anyone really surprised?


The speed? Sure. That she went back? No, not at all.


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## HusbandFatherSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

You may be disappointed in my waffling but I've had a change of heart. Started a New Thread to continue the conversation.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Series of faulty decisions on your part. Right from opening up this marriage to trying to fight for a cheating wife. I think it is high time you recalibirate your intuition. Currently it is only destroying you, bit by bit. Get some help. A trusted friend or an IC.


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