# How early to suspect an EA?



## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

I'm looking for feedback from the forum b/c I've had a terrible feeling in my gut all week that my wife is in the very early stage of an EA. I could either be completely paranoid/jealous/crazy OR I could be right. I'd much rather be the former in this case. *The question I'm asking is: is there such a thing as 'too early' to suspect an EA?*

LONG Background -- my wife and I have been married for 7 years. She is 34 and I'm almost 41. We have three young children under the age of 5yrs, 3yrs and she stays at home while I commute 2 hrs each day and travel quite a bit for work. 

Our marriage has been on shaky footing for a while, mostly b/c of (full disclosure) a sexual addiction problem I had which came to a head in March 2007 -- she found evidence of me looking at internet pornography. I told her I would quit, and did, but I did not make any concrete outward steps to recovery until Sept 2009 when I finally went to a christian-based recovery weekend...and followed up with a year long recovery group. Since then I've worked more on my spiritual side, made very overt acts of contrition, and just generally tried to dig myself out of the hole I put our marriage in. I do not deny to her that I was wrong and that it was my fault.

Still, over the last 4 years she has become increasingly withdrawn from me, and tells me that it's due to her continued disappointment in my ability to function in the marriage (I don't know how to love her, I don't listen well, I don't know how to be married, I don't cheerfully contribute around the house, I suffocate her, etc. etc.). She also told me in a discussion earlier this week that she really hasn't let go of the betrayal she felt... she "forgives me" but can't move on. It's to the point where she doesn't love me any more. She rarely looks me in the eye anymore, rarely even kisses or hugs me, and obviously we're in a really dry patch of intimacy (1 failed time in the last two years). Clearly our marriage needs healing.

Now over the last 3+ months she has decided that she's "going to take care of herself b/c no one else will." This coincides with her finally being free of nursing a baby. That means that she found a gym for us to belong to where she can take classes/workout. (she was never really into working out over the last 7 yrs, but I take it on good faith that she's trying to get her body back from giving birth to and nursing 3 kids in 5 years). She also is reading more books, reaching out to friends more, taking time for things like nail jobs and haircuts, buying some more clothes to get away from her worn out maternity clothes. She recently had some cosmetic surgery to remove some things from her skin that she hated to see. And she's even talking about having more serious body-sculpting surgery. Every one of these things on their own have merit, and perhaps even all of them together. But I still worry that she's looking for something she can't find. (I have a good friend whose wife did both the surgery and fitness, and their marriage ended in an EA...so my radar is up). I also worry that by "working on herself," there's even less chance for us to relate. Perhaps I just need to man up and stop being so needy!

Now, on to the present day...
Last weekend my wife went to a wedding in her hometown where the bridal party were all good friends of hers from high school. It was kind of a reunion, and I again supported it b/c I encourage her to find some time for herself to be something besides "mom." But, the one major twinge I had was that she was going as the "date" of the best man (B.M.). The B.M., the groom, and one of the groomsmen were all very close friends of hers who spent lots of time in her parents' house growing up, and by all accounts the relationships were platonic and they were stand-up guys. She's had mostly spotty contact over the last 10+ years with those guys until recently. Now in 2011 the B.M. is 1 year removed from an ugly divorce (which was the result of an affair) and he is living a less-than-ideal life. This is another red flag for me. He has two young kids of his own, and is living with his parents again and is saddled with a lot of debt from his 1st marriage. But, he knows my wife very well and she obviously really likes him as a friend.

She went to the wedding, stayed out until 4am with the group, B.M. drove her back to her car, and then she crashed at the house of a girl friend (who was out of town on vacation). The next day I saw her when I drove the kids up to meet up with her. She was really elated having seen her old H.S. friends, and was texting quite a bit throughout the day. On the other hand, she was very depressed that we don't live closer b/c she wishes that those people were more a part of our daily life. She even took a look at real estate ads on the drive home to see if a cheap place could be had for us to go to periodically on weekends. (that might have just been an in-the-moment thing). 

Meanwhile, we get home Sunday night and she calls her mom... at one point I overhear her saying that B.M. mentioned that he has another wedding to go to later this month and she could go with him. Her response was that it wouldn't work b/c we are going on vacation the next day. It wasn't "oh, that's not the right thing to do."

Right away my radar is on 100%. I had difficulty sleeping Sunday night. And by Monday I was going nuts... I needed some proof that I wasn't crazy... and so I did something that I really shouldn't do-- look at her phone and email. The phone had far fewer txt msgs than I thought it should have (based on how many she seemed to send on Sunday) and it showed a 38 minute conversation with B.M. that she had after we stopped halfway on the way home for me to pick up my car. Her email, which I could only look at briefly, had a few VERY long, largely inocuous messages traded between them. Some of the content was iffy, like him talking about the types of girls he was trying to date. But, what caught me really off-guard is that she offered to go to a college football game with him which she has tickets for and also to see him when he comes into town this fall with a college team he coaches. The football game isn't going to work b/c of his coaching schedule, and the visit to our town she brought up later to me as a chance for us all to meet him. But still... it feels like they are working out ways to see each other and undoubtedly more will come.

Those things were enough to cause me a full night without sleep on Monday. And really the rest of the week hasn't been any better. I've lost appetite, had a knot in my stomach, and been very anxious. I can't help the feeling that I want to know if there is more going on. There was even another 20 minute cell phone call yesterday from her to him. I have serious suspicions that she's contacting him through Facebook and email -- (1) we sleep in seperate rooms b/c I snore and last night she took the computer upstairs to bed, and (2) on Tuesday or Wed night she quickly closed a browser window when I came downstairs into the living room. And yesterday a copy of P90X DVDs came in the mail from him, since he told her he's been doing it and she should too.

I know enough already from some conversations I've initiated with her that she's going to do all the things people say over and over in this forum. I won't even be able to bring it up without her exploding at me. She's even informed me that she *does* intend to take more trips back to her hometown to re-establish contact with all of her old friends, both male and female. I'm worried that all of this is leading to her coming much closer emotionally and physically to this guy (B.M.)

*Am I on my way down the road that so many of you guys have gone down? Or am I completely looking for a tempest in a teacup?* If it is the former, what should I do? I don't want to keep snooping b/c it is wrong and it only makes me feel worse. But I don't want to get blindsided. I'm contemplating talking to her dad just to feel him out...but that may backfire too.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

You are way, way over your head and this is way further than it should have gotten. You are NOT cathcing this early.

There are so many issues I don't know where to start.

I don't persoanlly wish to debate porn. All I will say is that porn in general is no where near equivalent to dating other people falling inot an EA and then to a PA. Some may disagree but I think they are wacko. Maybe your porn got inot some webcam stuff .... But while there is definitely part of a bigger problem that needs to be resolved, you have bigger fish to fry.

Got a meeting now but will post more afterwards.

You are going to need to act today on this.


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## AppleDucklings (Mar 27, 2011)

hold off on talking with her father for now but do put on your detective hat and start looking for concrete evidence of anything. How does she act when she gets a phone call? Is she open and casual speaking on the phone and will she talk with you in the room or does she take the phone and hide? Can you get access to her phone to check call history and text messages? If not, you can go to your carrier and request a print off of the past month (or beyond) of all phone records. Does she often talk about this man? As in just bringing him up casually in conversation? And the biggest red flag of all---has she ever called him "just a friend"? If she has used those 3 words, the odds are very high there is something stinky going on. Also, with her new gym routine, while I understand people want to be in shape and look good, is there anything strange about her working out that does not fit her normal behavior pattern? Such as does she wear make up to the gymn or does she fix her hair first? (why would someone who is just going to get sweaty fix their hair and make up first?) Can you associate this man to the gym at all? As in, does he have a membership there? 
For your snoring, you can buy nasal strips. My ex was a snorer too and those little nasal strips really work. Go buy some and crawl in bed with your wife tonight. Watch her reaction. Is she happy to have you there or does she get defensive? Oh and next time she "intends" to go back to her hometown, let her know you intend to go with her. You after all, her husband.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

I would say you're not too early, you're actually too late: It has already gone EA if not already PA.


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> You are way, way over your head and this is way further than it should have gotten. You are NOT cathcing this early.
> 
> There are so many issues I don't know where to start.
> 
> ...


The porn was just run-of-the mill passive. No webcams.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

HurtAndLost said:


> The porn was just run-of-the mill passive. No webcams.


Ok, I will concede that for many women porn is an issue. I guess they can feel how they feel. BUT you have addressed it. Again your wife can feel how she feels.

I think we should just say that this is part of a root cause in your marriage for issues that you guys need to work out. 

Wife vulnerable to an affair due to marriage issues --- check


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

So with all these red flags, you feel that snooping is wrong? Then prepare to be blindsided.


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

AppleDucklings said:


> hold off on talking with her father for now but do put on your detective hat and start looking for concrete evidence of anything. How does she act when she gets a phone call? Is she open and casual speaking on the phone and will she talk with you in the room or does she take the phone and hide? Can you get access to her phone to check call history and text messages? If not, you can go to your carrier and request a print off of the past month (or beyond) of all phone records. Does she often talk about this man? As in just bringing him up casually in conversation? And the biggest red flag of all---has she ever called him "just a friend"? If she has used those 3 words, the odds are very high there is something stinky going on. Also, with her new gym routine, while I understand people want to be in shape and look good, is there anything strange about her working out that does not fit her normal behavior pattern? Such as does she wear make up to the gymn or does she fix her hair first? (why would someone who is just going to get sweaty fix their hair and make up first?) Can you associate this man to the gym at all? As in, does he have a membership there?


No, he's not at our gym. He lives 2hrs away. But, she does get her hair pulled back and wears smart yoga clothes. That's not a big red flag to me, only b/c she in general doesn't like to go anywhere looking shabby. 

I haven't heard her saying he's "just a friend" b/c I've been *very* cagey so far about zeroing in on this one guy. I've discussed it with her more in the light of "I don't want us to grow apart even further if you spend even more time away from me." So far this week she has been pretty open to talking about him... I'd be even more worried if she clammed up. And that might happen soon anyway. The thing is that I don't think this particular relationship has been going on for a long time. Perhaps it has been hit or miss via Facebook over the last few years, but now I really think it has ramped up 1000%.

I can't pull her cell records b/c her phone is on her Dad's family share plan. That is why ultimately I feel like I'll need to go to him for evidence. I highly doubt that she will ever call this guy while I'm around. She can do that while I'm at work or travelling or she is in her car running errands.



> For your snoring, you can buy nasal strips. My ex was a snorer too and those little nasal strips really work. Go buy some and crawl in bed with your wife tonight. Watch her reaction. Is she happy to have you there or does she get defensive? Oh and next time she "intends" to go back to her hometown, let her know you intend to go with her. You after all, her husband.


I've tried the nasal strips before and mouthpieces and sleep studies. No cure-alls. And I've been in the guest room for a long time by now. I brought it up the other night and she said, "I need my sleep and I can still hear you snoring from down the hall." 

Regarding her hometown visits, I've made it very clear that I want to go, so I can "get to know her friends back there."


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

I thought this would be similar to my situation. My h was constantly talking about a coworker, but never had a negative thing to say. I dug deeper and found that he sent funny emails to her (no one else) called her nicknames a few times, and felt comfortable saying an innapropriate joke. I talked to my H and her. They both claim innocence, and I think that's possible, but they were getting far too comfortable with eachother. Even if their ease into inappropriateness was unconscious, she pulled a stunt yesterday that let me know she was missing the attention she used to get.

Your situation is way beyond a beginning EA. Your wife disrespects you and tells you how it's going to be. Your feelings no longer concern her. She's already gaslighting and blameshifting. You are actually comfortable saying she went on a date. She's managed to guilt you into being submissive. Gather your evidence and confront ASAP. Let her know that you won't be in an open marriage and follow through with actions. If you remain scared for much longer it might be too late.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> So with all these red flags, you feel that snooping is wrong? Then prepare to be blindsided.


My comment about it being wrong is based on lots of other things I've read on other blogs... that it's a betrayal of trust, and a landmine for dealing with the EA (if it exists). Believe me, I'm torn on whether I believe that, but I know that if I'm wrong in the long-run on the EA, and yet I show that I don't trust her, then I may do irreperable damage to the marriage. She says over and over that loyalty and trust is a huge thing to her.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Wife -- Self improvement. Working out yadda yadda

Double edged sword:

1) Her improving herself is great and healthy.

2) She is improving her sex rank dramatically.

These two are both good and RED FLAGS for you. When you couple this with her statement that she is going to start taking care of herself, I actually see this as a threat to go find intimacy with other men since she has issues with you.

Her motivation for these changes is important. They may not have been undertaken for one reason only but getting her sex rank up on purpose to attract men would be a big problem. Let us assume for the moment that this was not her intention. Her sex rank has been raised anyway and she will attract more men and hotter men whether that was her intention or not.

If you were to rate your sex rank and her sex rank before she did this improvement on a scale of 1 - 10 what would your ranks be:

If you were to evaluate these now what would they be.

The above is a serious question and it does matter.

For men to improve their sex rank significantly take much time and effort. Yes a man can dress better. But beyond that he would need to do what she has done as far as working out. Or he can get a promotion and so on. Takes time and effort.

On the other hand, above and beyond what your wife has done already to improve her sex rank women can up their sex rank immediately by one or two points by the way they dress and by their interest with a man in a sexaul way. So if she starts dressing more sexy, showing more skin, change her undergarments or goes sans under garments ( going braless for example ) and in general is bringing attention on herself due to hewr sexual attraction. Improves her makeup and so on. A women is more sexual during ovulation.

Was your wife ovulating last weeked. Sounds creepy to ask but it matters. Cheating with women occurs much more when they are ovulating. Not a requirement but if you are trying to determine if they had a PA last weekend it matters.


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

HurtAndLost said:


> My comment about it being wrong is based on lots of other things I've read on other blogs... that it's a betrayal of trust, and a landmine for dealing with the EA (if it exists). Believe me, I'm torn on whether I believe that, but I know that if I'm wrong in the long-run on the EA, and yet I show that I don't trust her, then I may do irreperable damage to the marriage. She says over and over that loyalty and trust is a huge thing to her.


Your wife is going to be mad and blameshift. She WILL call it a violation of privacy. That is typical fog behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

WhereAmI said:


> Your situation is way beyond a beginning EA. Your wife disrespects you and tells you how it's going to be. Your feelings no longer concern her. She's already gaslighting and blameshifting. You are actually comfortable saying she went on a date. She's managed to guilt you into being submissive. Gather your evidence and confront ASAP. Let her know that you won't be in an open marriage and follow through with actions. If you remain scared for much longer it might be too late.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well... I'm not comfortable saying she went on a date. Maybe I should say she accompanied him as his "guest" to the wedding and that was how it was sold to me. But now it feels like more than that. 

The other thing is that he really was not brought up in our conversations prior to this wedding 1 week ago. And there's a part of me that thinks whatever "it" is that has developed over the last week is just that.... brand new. She was ripe for the picking -- no doubt -- and this wedding may end up being a catalyst for something she was set up for emotionally. That's why I'm feeling like this is *early* in the actual manifestation of two people interacting inappropriately.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

HurtAndLost said:


> My comment about it being wrong is based on lots of other things I've read on other blogs... that it's a betrayal of trust, and a landmine for dealing with the EA (if it exists). Believe me, I'm torn on whether I believe that, but I know that if I'm wrong in the long-run on the EA, and yet I show that I don't trust her, then I may do irreperable damage to the marriage. She says over and over that loyalty and trust is a huge thing to her.


There are no secrets in a marriage. It is a betrayal of trust to not look out for your partner. Your are not snooping for your own benefit. You are snooping for the relationship AND to stop your wife from making a horrible mistake.

Get over this now or just hand your wife to this other guy. It is that simple.

You should not be biindly trusting her. You have reason to check. She should not have reason to hide anything from you.

Short story. I was in an EA with a co-worker. My wife saw the signs. She snooped. She called me on it and saved our marriage. If she had not my marriage would have been destroyed. I love her no end for doing this. 

Seriously get over this attitude, stand up and fight for your marriage or just give away your wife.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

HurtAndLost said:


> Well... I'm not comfortable saying she went on a date. Maybe I should say she accompanied him as his "guest" to the wedding and that was how it was sold to me. But now it feels like more than that.
> 
> The other thing is that he really was not brought up in our conversations prior to this wedding 1 week ago. And there's a part of me that thinks whatever "it" is that has developed over the last week is just that.... brand new. She was ripe for the picking -- no doubt -- and this wedding may end up being a catalyst for something she was set up for emotionally. That's why I'm feeling like this is *early* in the actual manifestation of two people interacting inappropriately.


Another man escorted your wife. It was a date. She was with him becasue she is a women and he was a man. If they were not opposite sex they would not have been together as a couple. Period. Your wife should not be dating other men unless your are into being cuckolded.

This was a date. There is ahuge chance this went physical already. It may not have. It will get there though as this is a full blown EA right now.

Weddings are hot and sexy. Opportunities for fantasy and intimacy you cannot match. See movie Wedding Crashers. Funny movie and all that but there is some real truth here. 

The fact that he wants her to go with him to another Wedding is an over the top RED FLAG.

I guess you said he had an affair that broke up his marriage. UFB.

Anyway -- Instigate, Isolate, Escalate

Ok these are the three phases a predator uses to take your wife.

We see all three already. 

Instigate -- The instigatation was for her to be his escort and frankly we know that really this occurred well before and even this first date may actually be a phase of escaltion. This may have been through, Facebook or whatever.

Isolate -- Her primary male ( you dear sir ) was isolated from their presence during the wedding and later activities. She had her own place to sleep and could share that with him. It is likely he came over to visit at least if not having actual relations. Perhaps some kissing. 100% sure? No just very likely. Start snooping ... now. Who knows what happened as you were isolated. So he got you isolated and she helped. You are isolated by having to snoop on her emails and facebook. No secrets in marriage remember? Your wife and thus guy have secrets. She has secrets with another man not her husband.

Escalate -- Inviting her to another Wedding. Facebook, emails and texts. He is wanting to move the affair on to new levels.


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> If you were to rate your sex rank and her sex rank before she did this improvement on a scale of 1 - 10 what would your ranks be:
> 
> If you were to evaluate these now what would they be.


She's a very beautiful 5'10" woman who (I think) looks great after 3 kids. She's trying to lose some weight, especially around her waist. And she's only lost 4 pounds since February. So.... I'd call her an 8 and still an 8.




> So if she starts dressing more sexy, showing more skin, change her undergarments or goes sans under garments ( going braless for example ) and in general is bringing attention on herself due to hewr sexual attraction. Improves her makeup and so on.


She's not really doing those things to that extreme. But what has made me feel weird is that she never showed me the new dress, shoes, and earrings she bought for the wedding ($400)... as if I would see her costume. She even sent pictures to her good friend (the one whose house she crashed in after the wedding), saying she was looking for "sophisticated" and that it came "just above the knee."



> Was your wife ovulating last weeked. Sounds creepy to ask but it matters.


I don't think so. She had her period the weekend before...


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Another man escorted your wife. It was a date. She was with him becasue she is a women and he was a man. If they were not opposite sex they would not have been together as a couple. Period. Your wife shoule not be dating other men.
> 
> This was a date. There is ahuge chance this went physical already. It may not have. It will get there though as this is a full blown EA right now.


I don't disagree with you.... but two questions:
(1) what proof do I have? I few phone calls, some innuendo, maybe few emails (which are not in my possession)? How much do I need?
(2) Do I have to be ready for her to say "let's get a divorce?" I'm not emotionally ready b/c of the kids, but it might be headed there as you say
(3) should I just confront her directly?


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

As has already been said---you are in way over your head, and your wife at this point has put you on the back burner, and is looking for fulfillment with others, and she seems to have found it with her hi school buddy

Why does your wife have college football tickets, and then offers them to another to go with her---why would you not both be involved in going to the games

The long phone conversation---is inappropriate, and a huge red flag----if he was just a friend---they would have talked for a few minutes, and said their good-byes, and that is it for the next 10 yrs, or whatever---that ain't happening---she is spending more time talking to him, than to you

If you are in seperate bed rooms, she can e-mail, text, all night long, and you will know nothing about it

You need to stand up to her, and get the both of you into counseling---actually you may be way to late already

You don't really need anymore info, than what you have told us here---to know your mge is in trouble, and you should not wait to try SOMETHING as a remedy!!!!!


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

jnj express said:


> Why does your wife have college football tickets, and then offers them to another to go with her---why would you not both be involved in going to the games


The standard answer over the years has been that our young kids can't go, someone has to stay home to watch them. It's her school, so that was the deal when we met - that she wanted to go to a few games a year. Usually it's with a girl-friend or her brother. For us to pay a babysitter would be big financially right now. It doesn't make it right for her to take this guy.



> The long phone conversation---is inappropriate, and a huge red flag----if he was just a friend---they would have talked for a few minutes, and said their good-byes, and that is it for the next 10 yrs, or whatever---that ain't happening---she is spending more time talking to him, than to you. If you are in seperate bed rooms, she can e-mail, text, all night long, and you will know nothing about it.


Agree here too... Last night she had the laptop in OUR bedroom. What I can't work out is if she took it just to keep me from snooping or to chat with him. It could be either or both. The problem with me snooping on her email is that I believe she can tell when I've done it. New messages show up in the webmail screen when there shouldn't be any there...if it were only her opening up from the last time to the next (know what I mean?).

She leaves her cell phone downstairs most nights this week. That's why I think she's chosen the computer as her mode of communication with this guy.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Two things:

1) Facebook -- I have a facebook account. My wife has access to it. Facebook is affair central. Yes there are sexual dating sites but those folks have overtly decided to have pretty much anonymous sex with someone. Facebook helps with hookups and EA with pass friends and lovers. Especially from high school.

2) High School reunions -- Never, ever, ever let your wife go to a reunion alone. Travel with her and be her escort. You said this Wedding was like a H.S. reunion. OMG. Double down uber trouble. You should have attended the Wedding with your wife. 
You should have spent that night with your wife. Someone else may have. If there is a next wedding you must escort her. 

These two things are highly responsible for marriages crashing down on there own.

Was this guy and ex boy firend. Had they been initmate back then?

I thought it was ok to have close female friends until I had an EA. I found out I cannot. Most people cannot but they don't realize it or care. My EA was something that slowly happened as a result of having this woman as "my friend". I was not looking to cheat. I got drawn into this because it felt so right. So your wife does not have to be overtly looking to cheat. She is falling in love with this other. Women do not generally fall in love with multiple guys at once. meaning she has fallen out of love with you. This other guy is her source of dopamine. It is addictive and trumps pretty much all.

BTW, I make no excuse for my EA. I am embarrased by it. However if my experience can help another marriage I will speak up as I am doing with you. It can be stopped but time is not on your side. Days and even hours count.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

HurtAndLost said:


> She's a very beautiful 5'10" woman who (I think) looks great after 3 kids. She's trying to lose some weight, especially around her waist. And she's only lost 4 pounds since February. So.... I'd call her an 8 and still an 8.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So she is pretty hot. An 8 is actually very hot. An 8 will draw a lot of attention from males that are 1 - 10.

You did not rate yourself. It is important. Suffice it to say that if your sex rank is lower than hers you have extra trouble. This is an all else equal statement. It does not mean a woman will cheat of course. But it means if they are pursued by a male who is hotter than you, he has an edge over you and has an increased chance of getting her to fall for him. He is your competition. Folks will say that this is insecure. No it is reallity. Men were meant to c0ckblock other men from impregnating their mates. This is crude but it is what is wired into us throughout evolution. A man cannot do this when he is isolated. This is why we men get that feeling in the pit of our stomachs when we sense this stuff. Jelousy. Jealousy gets a bad rap. Yeah it can be wrong. But at its heart it is the natural mechanism for survival.

Predators have Approach Anxiety when they approach a woman who has a husband. Because it is hardwired in them to know that what they are doing is going after another man's wife. So he fears your intervention. So they had to isolate you to overcome that.

Married Man Sex Life

The above blog is worth looking at. I just finished his book and he explains this whole sex rank thing. It makes sense. 

I like this guys blog. I also like the His Needs Her Needs stuff.

Together they have really helpd my marriage.


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Another man escorted your wife. It was a date. She was with him becasue she is a women and he was a man. If they were not opposite sex they would not have been together as a couple. Period. Your wife should not be dating other men unless your are into being cuckolded.
> 
> This was a date. There is ahuge chance this went physical already. It may not have. It will get there though as this is a full blown EA right now.
> 
> ...


I'm glad to see you all agree with me; I was the putz who went along with it a couple of weeks ago in the spirit of helping her be happier about herself... not being "mom" 100% of the time.



> I guess you said he had an affair that broke up his marriage. UFB.


Clarification-- he didn't have the affair. His wife did. With a coworker of hers. That's why I can't believe he'd turn around and do the same thing to someone else's marriage/family. Maybe *he* doesn't realize what he's doing. I doubt that though.



> Anyway -- Instigate, Isolate, Escalate
> 
> Ok these are the three phases a predator uses to take your wife.
> 
> ...


Wow. I wish I had looked at it this way.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

HurtAndLost said:


> I don't disagree with you.... but two questions:
> (1) what proof do I have? I few phone calls, some innuendo, maybe few emails (which are not in my possession)? How much do I need?
> (2) Do I have to be ready for her to say "let's get a divorce?" I'm not emotionally ready b/c of the kids, but it might be headed there as you say
> (3) should I just confront her directly?


1) you don't need proof to have a conversation that tells her based on (a) your marital history & current situation + (b) her recent actions, attitudes, and noticeable focus that you are feeling very uncomfortable and want to take the necessary steps to ensure your marriage and marital vows stay intact moving forward. EVERY person here will tell you to trust your gut above & beyond any lack of evidence. 

2) You don't need to confront with "let's get a divorce", but you do need to confront that you want to do the right things now to ensure you don't get to that point. You do need to start considering that it could become an option if you make attempts at ensuring the strength of the marriage and she refuses. 

3) Confront directly, yes. But not with accusations of an affair... just a cooperative "this is what I'm seeing and we need to get it out on the table, addressed, and resolved because I want this marriage to work and I care enough to stand up and do something about it".

She will turn this around to her prior discussions with you about 'trust'. Here's the deal: If she's worthy of that trust, she will show you fully and openly her cellphone texts, email account password, chat logs, and anything else you wish to see. 

You need to tell her that she needs to openly discuss with you what is going on with the OM, and when you ultimately draw a line (which you need to do asap) that she is not going anywhere with him alone ever again (yes, it was a date btw - a date where close dancing and drinking are highly encouraged... what better romantic setting for an available woman wanting her ego fed?), she will push back, argue, rugsweep, and insist if you can't just trust her then you've got bigger problems....

Guess what? You've already got bigger problems. So the sooner you both recognize it, the sooner you both can get to working together to resolve it.

Think of it as an opportunity to finally get your marriage to the ground it needs to be on... but it will take both of you to do so. You're going to have to be strong, be the man, remain calm at all times, and take the lead in how yo0u're going to go about addressing this budding-if-not-already-a-real-EA(/PA?) issue that will WRECK your marriage if you do not catch up to it and overtake it.

I'd agree with posters here you're already too late to 'get in front of it'... it's started. You have to catch up before you can get in front of it, and you're just getting warmed up for the race; the starting gun went off a while ago. Go!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

HurtAndLost said:


> I don't disagree with you.... but two questions:
> (1) what proof do I have? I few phone calls, some innuendo, maybe few emails (which are not in my possession)? How much do I need?
> (2) Do I have to be ready for her to say "let's get a divorce?" I'm not emotionally ready b/c of the kids, but it might be headed there as you say
> (3) should I just confront her directly?


Listen to the folks on this forum. They have a lot of experience with this. My point for bringing this up was to assure you the environment for cheating is there. The signs of cheating are there. There is some level of an affair. An EA at least. My wife did not divorce me thank God for the EA. 

Just realize you should have gone to the Wedding with your wife.
That damage is done. Next time take different action. Trust is fine to a point. It is not that you don't trust your wife. You should not trust other men. Your wife is hot. Other men want to bed her. It does not mean she will just give in. But women who do not have their needs met and are being sought after are in big trouble. If you love her you will help her not to make the mistake.

You have the problem now in stopping the affair.

She is going to have to go no contact with this guy. 

Again I am going to leave those steps to others with more experience in this.

I was trying to motivate you and not beat you up. I was trying to validate that what you are feeling in your gut should not be ignored.

You have current issues in your marriage. Even the best marriages can be destroyed. BUT if there are issues and resentment you have to stop your wife from focusing on other men and start focusing on repairing the danage to the relationship.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's probably already a PA. Duh. Empty house. Without husband. With old male friend. Drinking. Nuf said.

So, what to do?

The first thing I would do is ensure you have online access to her phone records that she can't cut you off of, and also that you have a keylogger installed on her computer. THEN, the second thing I would do is be completely honest with her. "It's pretty obvious that you and OM have reconnected and are having at the very least an EA. I'm not happy about it, but I know our marriage has sucked for a long time. And I understand how good you felt to be around all your old friends again, to be seen as an adult and not just a mom and wife, and to be pursued by a man again. However, you ARE married, and you DID make a commitment to that marriage. So I'm going to say this once: you can either commit WITH me to fixing this marriage and keeping our family together, and I will put 150% into it, as I've now gotten a wakeup call, or you can move out and pursue OM. It's your choice. But he is a danger to this marriage, and I cannot continue in it with you in contact with him. What are you going to choose?"

You have a TEENY TINY window of opportunity here to scare the crap out of her and get her to ditch OM. It requires you being utterly honest and, most importantly, utterly CLEAR that you will not tolerate him being in contact with her. Note that you are not telling her what to do - you are telling her what YOU will do if she chooses to maintain contact with him.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

HurtAndLost said:


> The standard answer over the years has been that our young kids can't go, someone has to stay home to watch them. It's her school, so that was the deal when we met - that she wanted to go to a few games a year. Usually it's with a girl-friend or her brother. For us to pay a babysitter would be big financially right now. It doesn't make it right for her to take this guy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Imagine the financial impact of the affair, divorce, counseling and lawyers.

Also imagine the fact that your children will be taken from you and rasied by your wife and some other man. Sure you can fight for visiting rights.

Get a baby sitter and go with your wife. Date your wife. Make it a priority now. Tonight you should be going out with your wife on a date. I am going out with my wife tonight on a date. I will be travelling next week. I want her to be in the glow of the intimacy we have while I am gone. 

Ummmmm. She should not be contacting this guy period. You have enough information now. Stop the affair. tell her she has gotten to close to this guy and she must cut it off.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

turnera said:


> It's probably already a PA. Duh. Empty house. Without husband. With old male friend. Drinking. Nuf said.
> 
> So, what to do?
> 
> ...


^^^ YES YES YES ^^^ :iagree:


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Look into sleep apnea. You need to be sleeping in the same bed with your wife. You need every opportunity to bond with her.

You may need a CPAP machine. Do whatever it takes to get your wife back in your bed and not someone elses.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> Look into sleep apnea. You need to be sleeping in the same bed with your wife. You need every opportunity to bond with her.
> 
> You may need a CPAP machine. Do whatever it takes to get your wife back in your bed and not someone elses.


Exactly. Especially so early into the marriage!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

How much do you help with all the kids?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

HurtAndLost said:


> I'm glad to see you all agree with me; I was the putz who went along with it a couple of weeks ago in the spirit of helping her be happier about herself... not being "mom" 100% of the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You had a great Beta guy motive. What you did was for her to not be your wife 100% of the time. Not your intention. Hey she does need her time. She does not need time with other men. Especially ex H.S. men. To reiterate -- yes she needs her alone time, her time with friends and interests and so on. But you have to be aware if those are also bringing her closer to other men and not closer to you. All this would be way easier if your marriage was doing better. It is unlikely your wife would have pursued this in that case.

Yes you F'd up sir, but donl;t beat yourself up. Just get smart about it and use your love for her to help your marriage and not enable an affair. 

Keep in mind my whole "agenda" here is to convince you to act and act decisely, smartly and with urgency to save your marriage to this hot woman and the mother of your three kids. To prevent a divorce. BUT the paradox is that you sometimes have to risk losing someone to keep them. Tough love. My wife saved our marriage. It is way better than it ever has been. She actually trusts me more now. Becasue of the repair done and the fact that I am the wiser for it.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

2xloser said:


> 1) you don't need proof to have a conversation that tells her based on (a) your marital history & current situation + (b) her recent actions, attitudes, and noticeable focus that you are feeling very uncomfortable and want to take the necessary steps to ensure your marriage and marital vows stay intact moving forward. EVERY person here will tell you to trust your gut above & beyond any lack of evidence.
> 
> 2) You don't need to confront with "let's get a divorce", but you do need to confront that you want to do the right things now to ensure you don't get to that point. You do need to start considering that it could become an option if you make attempts at ensuring the strength of the marriage and she refuses.
> 
> ...


Yes. See this as opprtunity to turn your marriage around.

Oh and add the word "controlling". She will say you are trying to control her. Other posters inevitably will chime in and say let her have her life. You don't own her. You are controlling.

Just let it be water off the provebial ducks back. It is BS. You are trying to save your marriage. There is nothing more important. It is WAR. All is fair in LOVE and WAR.

Be prepared for "I need more space".

Also the dreaded: "I love you but am not in love with you."

She will harp on they are just friends. I have friends. I sometimes go months without interacting with them. I am not in love with them though.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

turnera said:


> It's probably already a PA. Duh. Empty house. Without husband. With old male friend. Drinking. Nuf said.
> 
> So, what to do?
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


Wondermous!!!


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## TheImperfectWives (Jul 8, 2011)

Hurt and Lost, do you have a relationship with God? Did you grow to church when you were growing up? God is your answer. Everything starts with Him. He has the power to restore your marriage but you have to be willing to do the work it takes.. setting aside pride, hurt, resentment, bitterness and begin to forgive and heal.. 

Praying for you and your wife. 

Cherie


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> So she is pretty hot. An 8 is actually very hot. An 8 will draw a lot of attention from males that are 1 - 10.
> 
> You did not rate yourself. It is important.


I'd say I'm an 8 too. Blue Eyes, blondish hair, 6'3" , 195 pounds, fit, low body fat... highly educated. Let's put it this way, I'm no slouch. Perhaps she's one point higher than me... I definitely think she improves me visually.  So, maybe I'm like a 7 if she's an 8!


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

turnera said:


> How much do you help with all the kids?


Every night... for three hours (when I'm not travelling). I get up with them every morning on the weekends. I don't play golf or run around. I am 100% for the family.


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

Thanks fellas and ladies. I will check in later, but please keep the dialogue going. I need the emotional/mental ammo...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

HurtAndLost said:


> Every night... for three hours (when I'm not travelling). I get up with them every morning on the weekends. I don't play golf or run around. I am 100% for the family.


 What does she do when you're doing this?

How many chores do you do? How many does she do?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

HurtAndLost said:


> I'd say I'm an 8 too. Blue Eyes, blondish hair, 6'3" , 195 pounds, fit, low body fat... highly educated. Let's put it this way, I'm no slouch. Perhaps she's one point higher than me... I definitely think she improves me visually. So, maybe I'm like a 7 if she's an 8!


Excellent!!! That bodes well for you. Some guys get all excited when their wives improve themselves physically. They should like it. BUT some miss the fact that they may not be so attractive and their wife gets attention from hot guys and he has not upped his game. Not saying all woman are shallow this way BUT it is risky. 

I get what you mean. Women will find you hotter when you are seen with your wife. A B S O L U T E L Y. Pre-selection at work here.


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

turnera said:


> What does she do when you're doing this?
> 
> How many chores do you do? How many does she do?


She sleeps in. It's always been one of my love perks to her, and as I've hit 40 yrs old I seem to have a hard time sleeping past 7 anyway! 

My chores: honey do lists, take out garbage around the house, lock house up at night, tidy up kitchen before bed, give kids baths each night, read to 3yr old each night, watering plants in summer, shoveling driveway in winter, gardening... etc.

Her chores: laundry, groceries, dinner, taking care of kids (big one), doctor, teacher, etc.


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Excellent!!! That bodes well for you. Some guys get all excited when their wives improve themselves physically. They should like it. BUT some miss the fact that they may not be so attractive and their wife gets attention from hot guys and he has not upped his game. Not saying all woman are shallow this way BUT it is risky.
> 
> I get what you mean. Women will find you hotter when you are seen with your wife. A B S O L U T E L Y. Pre-selection at work here.


Yeah, one would think... although she never looks at me that way anymore so... And I saw in one of her emails to OM (when they were talking about him dating a blonde while his type is brunettes) that she married "outside her type" so he shouldn't be hung up on that. Of course, that was very hard to read.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So...when you get home from work, she makes dinner and...what?

I'm trying to get a handle on what she does all day? SAHM?


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

turnera said:


> So...when you get home from work, she makes dinner and...what?
> 
> I'm trying to get a handle on what she does all day? SAHM?


Yes, she's a stay-at home Mom. At night after dinner... sometimes I wonder, frankly. I'll take kids to basement or outside and she'll catch up on whatever she needs to do. Sometimes it's the laundry, sometimes it's bath if it has been a tough day. But other times she may just be decompressing online. She says that it's looking for things for the kids (and many times that's true) but I do believe that she does a lot of Facebook and email then.

during day she runs kids to preschool, makes breakfast, more laundry, negotiates fights between kids, runs errands at different stores, groceries (like I said)


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

HurtAndLost said:


> Yes, she's a stay-at home Mom.
> 
> she does a lot of Facebook and email then.
> 
> during day she runs kids to preschool, makes breakfast, more laundry, negotiates fights between kids, runs errands at different stores, groceries (like I said)


Ok, first, items #1 and #2 are the MOST prevalent reason women have affairs, in my experience, when put together. 

I don't know why - and this is NOT an attack on SAHMs but rather an observation of a trend - SAHMs sometimes turn into 'other people' after awhile. People who are bored, spoiled, missing adult interaction, and lacking any kind of notable challenge. When you put it all together, they often end up spouting the same thing, I see it over and over and over: "I'm just not satisfied; I don't know why but you just don't do it for me any more; I only see you as a friend now and don't EVEN ask me for sex any more - you just don't know how hard my days are."

Bad enough.

But when you add in a husband who comes home after WORKING outside the home and then TAKES OVER the chores...almost INSTANT creation of an affair waiting to happen.

Why? Because you have lost your Alpha. You are now HER Beta. And women hate Beta men.

She doesn't have a job, Hurt. Sure, raising kids and all. But where I come from, that means she is responsible for ALL THE HOUSEWORK. That is her contribution to getting to stay home. That keeps her on top of her game, it keeps her from getting spoiled and thinking she deserves more than you, it keeps her grateful for the _random_ times you DO step in and give her a treat by taking over, and it keeps her from having 10 hours a day with nothing to do but contact old boyfriends.

Of course, now, it's too late, because she's having an affair. But if you do fix this, STOP TAKING CARE OF THE HOUSEWORK. Either that, or make her get a job. THEN, you should both share it. Not until. Ok?

But please do go back to my advice about confronting her about the affair. I've been advising to hundreds of men just like you, and I'm here to tell you from statistical data that, if you don't stop her RIGHT NOW by saying him or me, it will be him.

She HAS to see your Alpha man back. And that means no kissing up, no cuddling, no pleasing, no begging, no asking what you can do to make her happy. She found him attractive because he took what he wanted - like you did when you met her. THAT is what she wants, not a weak guy who moans about losing his wife. She will despise that man. Please trust me on this. Or, if nothing else, go read a couple dozen men's threads in infidelity to see the final results.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Stop with the how good you look ratings----they mean sh*t to your sub-conscious if she is making love to another man

Your looks will not take away the misery you feel day after day about losing your mge, and having visions of another man inside your wife

You need to solve the late night problem---she could be up all nite, contacting him, and you are asleep and know nothing of what is going on---that has to change somehow

This old BF, is your problem, and he will stay your problem, till you deal with it, and it can't be nice-----she will just "shine you on", if you treat this with kid gloves

Forget the lines about finances, and who gets the kids---you do what you must do, and do it for your own peace of mind--------make her take a look at hard reality---she didn't stay with him yrs. ago for a reason, well that reason is still there, find it, and put it to your use to turn her away from him

If you are to R., then you need to talk to her, and both of you do what is needed, to make the mge., a place you both want to be in

But do not beg, grovel, be overly indulgent---remember she is the cheater, and she needs to be accountable!!!!!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

HurtAndLost said:


> Yeah, one would think... although she never looks at me that way anymore so... And I saw in one of her emails to OM (when they were talking about him dating a blonde while his type is brunettes) that she married "outside her type" so he shouldn't be hung up on that. Of course, that was very hard to read.


OMG. That is the dopamine talking. The thing is dude that you are a Nice Guy. Too beta. She is not excited by a Nice Guy.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

turnera said:


> Ok, first, items #1 and #2 are the MOST prevalent reason women have affairs, in my experience, when put together.
> 
> I don't know why - and this is NOT an attack on SAHMs but rather an observation of a trend - SAHMs sometimes turn into 'other people' after awhile. People who are bored, spoiled, missing adult interaction, and lacking any kind of notable challenge. When you put it all together, they often end up spouting the same thing, I see it over and over and over: "I'm just not satisfied; I don't know why but you just don't do it for me any more; I only see you as a friend now and don't EVEN ask me for sex any more - you just don't know how hard my days are."
> 
> ...


*
*


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

The whole post is pure Gold. But the result is your mantra.
Take this advice. Do not be shy about it. This is exactly what you must do. Or she is gone.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

HurtAndLost said:


> The porn was just run-of-the mill passive. No webcams.


Ok, so forget this porn stuff. Glad you are not addicted to porn any more. After all the information that has been discovered here you are a real Nice Guy willing to feel shame about having been caught looking at some porn. Ok, maybe it was excessive. Who knows? BUT, you are not Tiger Woods. You did not go bang a bunch of women. You also dealt with this like an adult. Its over.

Why am I revisiting this? Just in case it comes up again. If you were doing something wrong you fixed it. There is no moral equivalence to what she is into now. Her resentment of you is not over some porn you looked at years ago. It is about your Beta behavior and her getting spoiled / bored as a SAHM and being on Facebook and being chatted up by this guy. Probably more of course but this is what you know.

If she throws the porn thing at you it is because frankly she cannot find anything else to rewrite history with. She is trying to justify her feelings and is grasping at straws. It is natural to do this. We can't deal with our own bad behavior so we are compelled to justify it.

This guy is especially dangerous because he lost his wife and is looking to fill that void in his life or at least fill her void for some validation of his own. Either way he is your enemy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

He just wants sex.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Do not double guess yourself.

If you feel like something is wrong, then something is wrong.

We are animals but we don't ever trust our instincts. We try to logically dismiss them.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

HurtAndLost, hope you're taking in all this great advice. Just about everyone here as been there, done that. Hang around here long enough and you really get a feel for how these things pan out. All you have to do is read the stories in this forum and all the other infidelity support forums on the net. Its almost always the same thing over and over again, the details and little circumstances may be different, but in general, affairs, whether they be EA or PA, follow the same general path. Usually, there is the same general way to handle it, the vast majority of it is what you have already read in your thread.


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> HurtAndLost, hope you're taking in all this great advice. Just about everyone here as been there, done that. Hang around here long enough and you really get a feel for how these things pan out. All you have to do is read the stories in this forum and all the other infidelity support forums on the net. Its almost always the same thing over and over again, the details and little circumstances may be different, but in general, affairs, whether they be EA or PA, follow the same general path. Usually, there is the same general way to handle it, the vast majority of it is what you have already read in your thread.


Thanks everyone for keeping up the advice and telling me how it is. And most of you have picked up quite well on that I'm not naturally an Alpha... And have been pushed squarely over the years into Beta. This is b/c my wife is 100% Alpha from the day I met her. Looking back to then I see countless examples where she beat me up emotionally. Then it was focused on her anger that I had been married once before. She has always been an angry person and it only got worse with kids. 

The part about SAHM is dead on, and I think the entitlement to "relief from Dad" is reinforced by two other factors: (1) moms chattering back and forth online and in other groups (like Mothers of Preschoolers) about how hard life is as a SAHM , and (2) the general wussification of men over the last 40 yrs in general to the point where they are carrying diaper bags around. 

I'm stuck right now b/c this morning we are going to have a birthday party for my oldest and then I fly out of town for a business trip for a week. I've lost my window to confront her immediately. I have no illusion that she will have much more contact with OM, at least until she drives across state on Thursday to see her old college roommate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

Ok. I couldn't sleep after waking at 245 and went downstairs to look at her cell phone. Two txt msgs from OM, one unopened that I could view... I was able to figure out something that had me puzzled. My wife was playing some new country music I hadn't heard on our kitchen tv/cd player. I didn't think too hard about it bc I was helping watch the kids while she decorated a birthday cake. Well, the txt msg made it pretty clear that he sent it to her... And sure enough when I pulled the disc out it was his handwriting on it. (I now know what it looks like bc of the P90x dvds he sent her the other day). 

This is now two gifts he has sent her. And the music is particularly potent bc she loves country while I don't. He is courting her. No doubt. I am so f'ng pissed right now I can't stand it. I'm going to have to confront her before I leave tonight for my trip. I wonder if it will help or hurt to have her parents around?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

turnera said:


> Ok, first, items #1 and #2 are the MOST prevalent reason women have affairs, in my experience, when put together.
> 
> I don't know why - and this is NOT an attack on SAHMs but rather an observation of a trend - SAHMs sometimes turn into 'other people' after awhile. People who are bored, spoiled, missing adult interaction, and lacking any kind of notable challenge. When you put it all together, they often end up spouting the same thing, I see it over and over and over: "I'm just not satisfied; I don't know why but you just don't do it for me any more; I only see you as a friend now and don't EVEN ask me for sex any more - you just don't know how hard my days are."
> 
> ...


Turnera, you have nailed it. I know that she resents me bc I am too passive. She has said repeatedly that she has 4 children, not 3. And my mistake over the years, as she has withdrawn more, is to give *more* of myself to her... Hoping it will make her happy. It is a death spiral that I admittedly have struggled to come out of. 

I hear you that no matter what, on *this* issue I have to show the fur on the back of my neck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

HurtAndLost said:


> Ok. I couldn't sleep after waking at 245 and went downstairs to look at her cell phone. Two txt msgs from OM, one unopened that I could view... I was able to figure out something that had me puzzled. My wife was playing some new country music I hadn't heard on our kitchen tv/cd player. I didn't think too hard about it bc I was helping watch the kids while she decorated a birthday cake. Well, the txt msg made it pretty clear that he sent it to her... And sure enough when I pulled the disc out it was his handwriting on it. (I now know what it looks like bc of the P90x dvds he sent her the other day).
> 
> This is now two gifts he has sent her. And the music is particularly potent bc she loves country while I don't. He is courting her. No doubt. I am so f'ng pissed right now I can't stand it. *I'm going to have to confront her before I leave tonight for my trip.* I wonder if it will help or hurt to have her parents around?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


While not an ideal circumstance, I would not be leaving on a trip without confronting her. In fact I would cancel the trip for a family emergency if I were you. If at all possible. 

She is traveliing across state to see her college roommate.
Is this nearer to the OM? Any chance she is hooking up with the OM? Not trying to make you paranoid but again time is critical here. Who is watching the kids?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

HurtAndLost said:


> Ok. I couldn't sleep after waking at 245 and went downstairs to look at her cell phone. Two txt msgs from OM, one unopened that I could view... I was able to figure out something that had me puzzled. My wife was playing some new country music I hadn't heard on our kitchen tv/cd player. I didn't think too hard about it bc I was helping watch the kids while she decorated a birthday cake. Well, the txt msg made it pretty clear that he sent it to her... And sure enough when I pulled the disc out it was his handwriting on it. (I now know what it looks like bc of the P90x dvds he sent her the other day).
> 
> This is now two gifts he has sent her. And the music is particularly potent bc she loves country while I don't. He is courting her. No doubt. I am so f'ng pissed right now I can't stand it. I'm going to have to confront her before I leave tonight for my trip. I wonder if it will help or hurt to have her parents around?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I cannot imagine why you would want her parents around. This is between you two. Don't be a conflict avoider.

Again I would cancel my trip if at all possibe. Insist that you and her talk this out.


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> While not an ideal circumstance, I would not be leaving on a trip without confronting her. In fact I would cancel the trip for a family emergency if I were you. If at all possible.
> 
> She is traveliing across state to see her college roommate.
> Is this nearer to the OM? Any chance she is hooking up with the OM? Not trying to make you paranoid but again time is critical here. Who is watching the kids?


She is taking kids with her. And, no, this trip puts her further away from OM than where we live
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> I cannot imagine why you would want her parents around. This is between you two. Don't be a conflict avoider.
> 
> Again I would cancel my trip if at all possibe. Insist that you and her talk this out.


They will be here for the party. I'm not trying to be a conflict avoider... I just know that our argument patterns mean that she will shut me down (by leaving room, by flying off in a rage) if we are alone. At least if her parents are there I will have someone else to hear me out. They are an integral part of our lives and are up-standing people. I think they want to see their grandchildren brought up in a house that is not broken. And I think if they heard what I have to say they would support me (us).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

HurtAndLost said:


> She is taking kids with her. And, no, this trip puts her further away from OM than where we live
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


UPDATED: I did not reply earlier with my gut feeling, but after thinking about it and then seeing tunera's reply I knew my gut was right.

This is classic to me. The odds are very very high he will be meeting her there. The fact that the kids are along will not help. Her friend will enable the affir and watch the kids while they consumate things. 

IF this has not gone physical yet which I think it has already it will this week while you are on your trip.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

HurtAndLost said:


> Turnera, you have nailed it. I know that she resents me bc I am too passive. She has said repeatedly that she has 4 children, not 3. And my mistake over the years, as she has withdrawn more, is to give *more* of myself to her... Hoping it will make her happy. It is a death spiral that I admittedly have struggled to come out of.
> 
> I hear you that no matter what, on *this* issue I have to show the fur on the back of my neck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here’s my take.

Your wife has emotionally and psychologically checked out of your marriage. She’s there physically and that’s it. She’s been looking for a way out for a while.

Do not ever involve anyone else in your problems in your marriage other than the good folks here on TAM or a counsellor. Do not involve her parents, that is true beta male stuff. It doesn’t get much more beta male than that. This is your problem, handling these problems by yourself is alpha male stuff. That includes contacting the OM and telling him to back-off in no uncertain terms. Do not threaten him, just tell him to back off and put the phone down.

Go over to the Men’s Club House and read the sticky at the top. Find out about the “180” and boundaries for men. This isn’t going to be fixed over night but you are in the right place to find out the right things to do.

I will repeat. Do not involve anyone from your wife’s family or any similar person. That’s just beta whining and at the same time builds massive resentment in the wife. It actually increases the strong dislike and passive anger she has for you right now and gives her even more ammunition for having her affair.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

HurtAndLost said:


> They will be here for the party. I'm not trying to be a conflict avoider... I just know that our argument patterns mean that she will shut me down (by leaving room, by flying off in a rage) if we are alone. At least if her parents are there I will have someone else to hear me out. They are an integral part of our lives and are up-standing people. I think they want to see their grandchildren brought up in a house that is not broken. And I think if they heard what I have to say they would support me (us).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But the opposite happens! Your in-laws will support their daughter. In effect you would be asking them to side with you, to see and take your point of view. They will take their daughter’s side. One of the reasons is that there’s no way will they ever risk alienating their daughter such that they never see their grandchildren again. And of course after their daughter tells them just how miserable and unhappy you made her over the years (her reasons for her affair), they will want their daughter to finally be happy. They will though tell you just what a Very Nice Guy they think you are!


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Listen to AFEH! That's why it's part of the 180!

*"Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS."*

It is beta behavior. Not only that, remember the old saying is almost always true, blood is thicker than water. They may be upset at what your WW is doing, it may even be disgusting to them, but when push comes to shove, they will support her. YOU are just the son/brother in law, and you are lower on the totem pole compared to their daughter and grandchildren.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

HurtAndLost said:


> She is taking kids with her. And, no, this trip puts her further away from OM than where we live
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're KIDDING, right? _He already has a ticket to get there_! 

Friends help friends cheat.

Jeez.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

There is no way in hell I would go on a business trip and let her go to her friend's without me. That will be the END of your marriage, my friend. Is that business trip worth it?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

turnera said:


> There is no way in hell I would go on a business trip and let her go to her friend's without me. That will be the END of your marriage, my friend. Is that business trip worth it?


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Scottt (Feb 25, 2011)

turnera said:


> There is no way in hell I would go on a business trip and let her go to her friend's without me. That will be the END of your marriage, my friend. Is that business trip worth it?


I agree, Turnera. If HurtAndLost goes on this business trip, and especially if he doesn't accompany his wife on her outing, wherever she's really going, it will send a strong message that he's already checked out of the marriage and that his wife is up for grabs. The message will be a strong one to the wayward wife, and an even stronger one to the other man (because guys always get it, even when women sometimes don't).

HurtAndLost, even if you think the business trip is important, is it more important to you than your marriage? I hope not. Your most important business right now should be preserving your family, and going with your wife and kids to visit her old college roommate should be fun and a step in the right direction, at least, if that really is where she's going.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

turnera said:


> You're KIDDING, right? _He already has a ticket to get there_!
> 
> *Friends help friends cheat.*
> 
> Jeez.


I find it amazing but this is absolutely true and a big recurring theme in these things.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HurtNLost,

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html

Here's your autobiography.

Read it and weep - all the links.

Then DO SOMETHING about it.


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## Scottt (Feb 25, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> I find it amazing but this is absolutely true and a big recurring theme in these things.


Entropy3000, you always get it! Even if it wasn't prearranged, I just picture the OM getting the idea to travel to the same town as the WW's college roommate. That way, he can check into a hotel and the roommate can watch the WW's kids while the WW comes over so they can "reconnect."


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

A hell of a lot of drama to pretend you're going to get back someone who's clearly put a huge investment in planning this out and skulking around to pull it off. She wants something different/better/whatever. Help her pack and send her off with a blessing and godspeed.


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

Update:
I got my wife alone late yesterday afternoon to basically say to her "I'm having a hard time handling this friendship you have with O.M., and I need to know what's going on." The conversation went around and around, with me trying to focus on how much I think it could damage our chances of getting back on track as husband and wife. She said, "you're trying to control me," to which I said, "I never control you... YOU control ME. And on this one thing I'm simply having a hard time with it." I think she's tired of me continuing to have relationship-centered conversations. So, I have to push through them. But the problem was I didn't have a gameplan. I think I just wanted to raise the red flag to her, and at least have it out there. That's b/c I don't feel like I have a strong enough case. (must be my insecurity). And I'm still not 100% sure that her friendship with this guy truly has escalated. 

Anyway, I kept prying with her asking how much she had talked/emailed/texted with him since the wedding. She told me she's traded emails, but hadn't talked to him since last Sunday when he returned her sunglasses to her. I know that's a lie b/c she had talked to him at least twice on her cell phone (38min and 20 min conversations). And I wanted to know how many things she had planned to do with him. She had mentioned last Thursday that she wanted all of us to see his girls vball team play when they came into town, and I figured that was ok since we'd all be there. Well, she mentioned during our discussion that she was talking to him about meeting up at our local zoo with his kids and my kids (but not me). That was news to me and hit me in the gut... but she completely left out something: that she had invited him to the college football game that she had an extra ticket for. (I knew this b/c of a txt message I saw from him saying he couldn't make it) So, lie #2.

At that point I was furious. If she had copped to everything I knew, then I'd take it as a good sign. Instead, she lied about two pretty big things. And so I reacted. Badly. And said, "That's Bull****. You're lying." 

She immediately blew up and ran out of the room, downstairs, and outside to where her parents and my kids were. This, of course, in hindsight was completely poor tactics on my part, but I had no other time to bring it up with her. I was thus completely disadvantaged with her support group around her. And the thing is that she can appear to be the victim b/c I challenged a core value of hers... honesty. 

I've opened up Pandora's box now and am not sure where things are going to go from here. I ended up going on my trip b/c I think we need some distance. I'm willing to take the risk that she'll amp up contact with the O.M. I don't think it's going to escalate to a P.A. while she's visiting her college roommate. And, again, I already know just based on my behavior at the point of blowup that I'm my worst enemy... that I immediately felt bad (even though i was right) for having called her a liar. How messed up is that? Maybe it's best that I'm away and not contact her.

One problem I see with my approach is that I didn't have a strategy, and didn't go "all in" once a couple of lies were revealed. I only when halfway, but didn't tell her how I knew. Now I'm in a special circle of hell where I look like the jerk. And in my own mind I'm not convinced that there is an EA right now. I am convinced that left unchecked it would steal whatever threads of re-connection are still out there. She already admits she doesn't love me. And she has already checked out. And I told her this guy is a threat, whether she sees it that way or not.

I'm at a point where I'm in my own fog. I'm scared that I've turned a corner with her that I can't go back around. She's going to focus on me calling her a liar, and will never let me forget it. I could call her on it by revealing the truth of what I know, but then I will have the fallout of having to explain why I snooped... which would really shut her down. And I'm just not ready emotionally to think about what happens if everything breaks apart. 

All are Beta behaviors. After all the posting and reading I've done on this forum, I now can say with all clarity that I am a Beta, and have been for a long time. I don't even know how to be Alpha. And she has said as much for a long time, that I need to man up or "sack up," that I need to say what I mean and mean what I say, and tons of other things. My problem is that I always believed she didn't want an Alpha in the house b/c she is 100% Alpha. We'd kill each other if we were both the same. I guess I'm wrong. I guess now is one of those opportunities to stick to my guns. If she ends up not talking to this guy anymore, she will hate me for it...and I think that wedge will be huge as well.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I feel for your situation. The part where she has stated she doesn't love you and has checked out of the marriage....BIG PROBLEM. As a DS myself I can tell you this, it will progress with her and this "friend". Good luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

pidge70 said:


> I feel for your situation. The part where she has stated she doesn't love you and has checked out of the marriage....BIG PROBLEM. As a DS myself I can tell you this, it will progress with her and this "friend". Good luck to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just to clarify... she didn't state she has checked out. But, that's what she's done. When tell her over and over again that we don't talk enough or spend quality time together, she says, "I'm doing the best I can." Which I translate to her saying she gets up every morning, takes care of the kids, pays the bills, etc. etc.

And so I know that we have been on really bad footing for a long time. Even if this thing doesn't turn into an EA, I know that she's looking for newer and newer avenues to make herself happy. It may be as innocuous as spending more time with her girl-friends or picking up new hobbies, etc. I've gotten no indication that she wants to work on "us." She threw me a bone a couple of weeks ago by lining up a babysitter so we could go see a movie.. but just a movie. First date in a long time. 

Additional info: I'm a child of an alcoholic, and know all about co-dependency. I'm reading HurtinginTN's long post and realize that I have been an enabler in my marriage for a long time. Especially after she got the goods on me (=porn) that she could hold over my head. Breaking out of the Beta and enabler cycle is a major mountain to climb, but others here have done it. However, *I am 100% tortured by the picture of divorce*... because of my 3 kids who I love very much. I never imagined in all my life that I'd end up playing a role in a broken home, since I swore that I would not put my kids through what I went through. It's to the point that I've rationalized and largely accepted my own suffering is worth minimizing the suffering on these three sweet young creatures. I have been playing peace-maker for so long with my anger-challenged wife to shield the kids, and to keep things together. And in the process have become a shell of a man.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

HurtAndLost said:


> Update:
> I got my wife alone late yesterday afternoon to basically say to her "I'm having a hard time handling this friendship you have with O.M., and I need to know what's going on." The conversation went around and around, with me trying to focus on how much I think it could damage our chances of getting back on track as husband and wife. She said, "you're trying to control me," to which I said, "I never control you... YOU control ME. And on this one thing I'm simply having a hard time with it." I think she's tired of me continuing to have relationship-centered conversations. So, I have to push through them. But the problem was I didn't have a gameplan. I think I just wanted to raise the red flag to her, and at least have it out there. That's b/c I don't feel like I have a strong enough case. (must be my insecurity). And I'm still not 100% sure that her friendship with this guy truly has escalated.
> 
> Anyway, I kept prying with her asking how much she had talked/emailed/texted with him since the wedding. She told me she's traded emails, but hadn't talked to him since last Sunday when he returned her sunglasses to her. I know that's a lie b/c she had talked to him at least twice on her cell phone (38min and 20 min conversations). And I wanted to know how many things she had planned to do with him. She had mentioned last Thursday that she wanted all of us to see his girls vball team play when they came into town, and I figured that was ok since we'd all be there. Well, she mentioned during our discussion that she was talking to him about meeting up at our local zoo with his kids and my kids (but not me). That was news to me and hit me in the gut... but she completely left out something: that she had invited him to the college football game that she had an extra ticket for. (I knew this b/c of a txt message I saw from him saying he couldn't make it) So, lie #2.
> ...


*You need to tell her ASAP. Call her right now on the phone. **You need to calmly but firmly tell her that the relationship she has with this guy is not acceptable to you and it must stop right now with full NC immediately. **That she is not to see this guy while you are on this trip ... period.* Stop beating yourself up and blaming yourself for anything. She is the one who breaking her vows with this other man. You should have said this to her face to face but clearly if you wait any longer she is as good as gone. It may already be too late. You should not have gone on this trip.

See how she used the word controlling. That is validation. You don't think she has been physical and will not escalate for one reason only. That rerason has nothing to do with trust. She has shattered that. It is because the thought is abhorrent to you. You can;t deal with it so you want to believe eberything is ok. BAD IDEA DUDE.

You do not have to prove anything. Every hour you wait the further she is from you. Distance is not what you need right now. You are giving her space for her to escalate the affair. It appears that you wish to wait for her to consummate with the OM and continue to biond with him in emotional ans sexaul ways. Every intimat moment. Every intimate secret and yes every orgasm she has with this guy is bonding her to him.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

HurtAndLost said:


> Just to clarify... she didn't state she has checked out. But, that's what she's done. When tell her over and over again that we don't talk enough or spend quality time together, she says, "I'm doing the best I can." Which I translate to her saying she gets up every morning, takes care of the kids, pays the bills, etc. etc.
> 
> And so I know that we have been on really bad footing for a long time. Even if this thing doesn't turn into an EA, I know that she's looking for newer and newer avenues to make herself happy. It may be as innocuous as spending more time with her girl-friends or picking up new hobbies, etc. I've gotten no indication that she wants to work on "us." She threw me a bone a couple of weeks ago by lining up a babysitter so we could go see a movie.. but just a movie. First date in a long time.
> 
> Additional info: I'm a child of an alcoholic, and know all about co-dependency. I'm reading HurtinginTN's long post and realize that I have been an enabler in my marriage for a long time. Especially after she got the goods on me (=porn) that she could hold over my head. Breaking out of the Beta and enabler cycle is a major mountain to climb, but others here have done it. However, *I am 100% tortured by the picture of divorce*... because of my 3 kids who I love very much. I never imagined in all my life that I'd end up playing a role in a broken home, since I swore that I would not put my kids through what I went through. It's to the point that I've rationalized and largely accepted my own suffering is worth minimizing the suffering on these three sweet young creatures. I have been playing peace-maker for so long with my anger-challenged wife to shield the kids, and to keep things together. And in the process have become a shell of a man.


Dude, your wife is in a full blown EA at the very least. It is highly likely it has already gone to a PA. The OM and her now have you isolated because you are gone on a trip. Not to freak you out but who is to say they are not together today or will be. This week was your crucial test and you are failing right now .... badly. 

*If you do not want a divorce you need to tell her that she must go no contact with this OM *who is taking your wife from you as each hour passes. You have to be willing to lose a person in these cases to have any hope of keeping them. If you do nothing she is gone. She will either sue you for divorce after killling your soul and emasculating you further or she will cuckold you. Ultimately this will break you apart and you will lose your home, have another man raise your kids and be left to pick up the broken pieces of your life.

Stop with the porn [email protected] You continue to blame yourself over silly stuff. This has nothing to do with that. Your wife has the hots for another man. True the porn thing may have influenced you into losing any Alpha apeal from your wife. The way you fix that now is to stand up and be a man .... right f'ing now.

You are F'ing up. Stand up for yourself, your marriage, your children AND your wife. Do it for your kids if no other reason.

You would have shown real backbone ... rather balls if you had canceled your trip to work this out with her. You not fighting for her validates you are the man for her.

I am hitting you hard here because I think you need. I wish you luck ... heading out on a week long business trip myself. I hope you decide to fight for your marriage.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

[/URL]


HurtAndLost said:


> After all the posting and reading I've done on this forum, I now can say with all clarity that I am a Beta, and have been for a long time. I don't even know how to be Alpha. And she has said as much for a long time, that I need to man up or "sack up," that I need to say what I mean and mean what I say, and tons of other things.


I hope you can get there faster and man up. Otherwise this is going to drag out for months and months like the other 5 megathreads where the husband is so beta and is trying to crawl out of the hell of limbo. Notice those threads didn't end well or arent going to end well.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/19355-post-ea-pa-fog-she-taking-steps-move-out.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/24095-synopsis-update-ongoing-emotional-affair.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/17719-could-someone-explain-fog.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/13860-some-one-please-read-help-me-i-am-out-options.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/14064-wife-having-emotional-affair-how-handle.html

If you can manage to read thru those mega threads, a clear pattern is evident.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Some of the men here are panicking. It is not the thing to do. Call, calm and collected is the thing to do. Nothing’s going to change overnight.

HurtAndLost, you are 6ft 3. Get in front of a long mirror and take a look at yourself. What do you see? Yes, take a very long look at yourself.

Your wife is not an alpha female, bad tempers an female do not make in the same way bad tempers do not an alpha male make. They just make him a jerk. You are far more alpha male than you realise. You take care of your family, you earn the money to pay the bills.

In a way it is time for you to pull up your drawbridge. To retreat and consolidate. To be the big strong man who can take anything in his stride.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Call her tonight, from your hotel, and tell her that you do NOT want her communicating with OM in any shape or form until you get back to town so you can determine what's going to happen in your marriage. SHE NEEDS TO HEAR FROM YOU THAT YOU MAY NOT KEEP HER because of what she's done.

Dude, SHE HAS TO HEAR IT. 

Please trust us on this. This is your only affair - and YES it IS an EA, stop backpedaling so you don't have to act.

WE have been through hundreds of affairs just like yours. Men just like you. We've seen how to save marriages and how to lose marriages. What you are doing is how to LOSE a marriage. Please trust us.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

turnera said:


> Call her tonight, from your hotel, and tell her that you do NOT want her communicating with OM in any shape or form until you get back to town so you can determine what's going to happen in your marriage. SHE NEEDS TO HEAR FROM YOU THAT YOU MAY NOT KEEP HER because of what she's done.
> 
> Dude, SHE HAS TO HEAR IT.
> 
> ...


Panicking and running around like a headless chicken wont get him anywhere.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Huh? Calling her and telling her to stay away from OM is panicking?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

turnera said:


> Huh? Calling her and telling her to stay away from OM is panicking?


No it is not panicking. Disinterest is just accepting he affair.

That said, I do agree he needs to be calm and firm.

Retreating seems to be accepting of the behavior and just a prelude to walking away IMO.

Now putting myself into this situation. No f'ing way I am putting up with the hint of any of this [email protected] Forget further proof. I would not need proof to intervene. There is way too much proof now. NC right now. No question. IF my wife felt this was worth her marriage to me to fight for her time with another guy she can pack her stuff up right now. I love my wife more than myself. Because of that there would be no room for sharing her with another. No job or anything else is more important than our relationship. I am not over bearing with my wife. I trust her. But we can all get caught up and over our heads. I am not a conflict avoider. I am not going to let another man take my wife away without a full on, full throttle. scorched earth fight. Just sayin.


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> No it is not panicking. Disinterest is just accepting he affair.
> 
> That said, I do agree he needs to be calm and firm.
> 
> ...


UPDATE:
I didn't call her during my trip out of town, except to talk to the kids. This was me doing the 180... Obviously then I didn't confront the EA/OM. This was really by design to be honest. I realized that she's not the kind of wife that is going to apologize or ask foregiveness.

My gameplan coming back was to work through my options by talking to some good friends -- not very alpha, but still trying to make sure that I'm ready for the next step -- and also to go down the road to talking to a lawyer to see where things stand. I'm very analytical, like most guys, and need to have the scenarios laid out in front of me.

Meanwhile, I also thought I'd keep doing some digging to see if the pattern that so often happens in these EAs reveals itself. Sure as ****, it has. She's gone more underground, predicated no doubt by my confrontation with her before I left for my trip.

The dumb thing she did was to leave her (our) computer at home while she was across state with her college roommate. I was able to view her entire browsing history for that week after the wedding (and copy it to a text file). I found some details that confirm the deal:

She was looking into nursing schools, some in our area, and some in her HOMETOWN
she looked on Careerbuilder for Nursing jobs in her HOMETOWN
She was looking up real estate prices in her HOMETOWN
she looked up house prices in our neighborhood (presumably to figure out what our house would sell for)
she looked up some italian translations (OM is Italian american), including one that said "good night my sexy friend"

So, I was pretty much on fire when she came home from her trip. BUT, I decided to play it cool just for a bit... again, to get my ducks in a row. We did end up talking about a number of things related to our marriage, and true to being more Alpha I stood my ground on several fronts, including the way she talks down to me and how f'd up our finances are.

Anyway, knowing what I knew, I figured in the meantime I would keep an eye on her browser history this week. Lo and behold, she's gone underground. The cell phone disappears with her at night (we're in seperate beds) and she's deleting her daily browsing history. She *never* used to do that. AND, just last night, she now is logging of her Mac so that I can't even see her desktop.

So... that's that. I know you guys are going to say I'm being complicit, but for ME I need to know the endgame in my state with respect to my kids, the money, etc. Only when I have that in my back pocket, do I feel like I can have "the talk" with her. I want to be able to walk into that talk unafraid to walk away from the M.

Comments welcome....and expected.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Sigh.

That sux.

But, I understand why you are handling it the way you are. You realize you have all the evidence you need to know that your wife is planning to leave you. Maybe for this guy. But that is less important. 

Not sure if you engaged this earlier if it would have made a difference. That would have required some serious vigilance and being very much in tune with your wife.

Maybe you played this the best way. Idunno.

It is good to do your homework. You can approach things is a much more confident and assertive manner, already knowing how you wish to play this out and what options you have.

Hang tough. Not sure if you really want your wife back or not. But for sure it is about the kids.

Any thoughts on whether she may have seen the OM while she was visiting her friend? Or that this has already gotten physical. Again I am thinking it did when she was at the wedding.

Wow. You bought her a Mac!!


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> But, I understand why you are handling it the way you are. You realize you have all the evidence you need to know that your wife is planning to leave you. Maybe for this guy. But that is less important.
> 
> Not sure if you engaged this earlier if it would have made a difference. That would have required some serious vigilance and being very much in tune with your wife.


Yeah, truth is that our marriage has been so bad for so long, she could have started down this path much earlier. She has a ton of time where I'm out of the house. In fact, I'm surprised it took this long. There's ultimately nothing I can control. Now it's just a matter of confronting her and saying, "I don't care if you think this guy is 'just a friend,' it has to stop..... or we're done" Make it her choice. She sure as hell did that to me 4 years ago when she confronted me about looking at porn

My guess right now is that she's not planning to leave me tomorrow. It will be an open-ended thing... she wants options. She ended up revealing to me the other night that she wants to go to nursing school. This would normally be a good thing b/c long term we'd have more income, etc. But I feel like she's at the very least getting her escape strategy in order. Plus, her mother will retire in two or three years, so it may all fall into place for her. Meanwhile, she'll have her cake and eat it too by staying close to this guy and seeking out new ways to reinvent herself, while ignoring me.



> Hang tough. Not sure if you really want your wife back or not. But for sure it is about the kids.


This is such a tough question. She and I both have stayed in this solely bc of the kids. (she said as much to me in a fight once....that she'd have been gone a long time ago if not for the kids.) I also had the optimism that things would improve once our baby stopped nursing, etc. But I was wrong. Now, with this secret friendship/EA my mind has changed. My best friend went through a similar thing. He ended up with a divorce bc his wife didn't see the big deal and never accepted that it was a problem. I think the same thing will happen to me when I confront her with everything. 



> Any thoughts on whether she may have seen the OM while she was visiting her friend? Or that this has already gotten physical. Again I am thinking it did when she was at the wedding.


Impossible to tell. And I think you know that I may never know. I asked the kids some probing questions when they got back, but nothing came of that. There is a part of me that thinks she hasn't gotten there yet in her mind. But, there will be that paranoid part too... like yesterday when I swung by the house to make sure no one was here while she had the two oldest kids out of the house.

Do you know how often people resort to some sort of software to get more evidence? I'm thinking that she'll argue that I just have circumstantial evidence. There's no telling what she's talking about now that she's covering her tracks.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

How old are your kids? 

Have you printed out all her texts etc.? You need proof.

You MUST install a keylogger on her computer and get access to her phone records, and print out both for proof.

Finally, what is your goal? You said you've had a miserable marriage. Is it worth saving? Or do you just not want to 'lose?' IF you want her back, you need to let us know. The way to achieve that is not for the faint of heart, and if you don't have the balls to stand up to her, you need to let us know now, before we tell you what to do.


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

turnera said:


> How old are your kids?


Our kids are 5, 3, and 18 months. So, it's not like we only have a few years left before they leave the nest... this is something that will profoundly affect the rest of their lives. I don't take that lightly.



> Have you printed out all her texts etc.? You need proof.
> 
> You MUST install a keylogger on her computer and get access to her phone records, and print out both for proof.


I can't print her texts, but did download a copy of 10 days worth of browsing history. (see an earlier post for what I found). Now I'm not sure if I can even get the keylogger on her computer since she is logging off and I don't have her password... it would have to be in a moment of forgetfulness when she has forgotten to log off. 

I can't get her phone records b/c she is on her dad's family plan.



> Finally, what is your goal? You said you've had a miserable marriage. Is it worth saving? Or do you just not want to 'lose?' IF you want her back, you need to let us know. The way to achieve that is not for the faint of heart, and if you don't have the balls to stand up to her, you need to let us know now, before we tell you what to do.


My goal.... that's a great question. I'm trying to figure that out now, especially as some of the initial emotion wears off. If there were no kids in the equation, the answer would be simple. It's not about winning or losing. I do have the balls to stand up to her... just want to make sure that when I do it, I have my bases covered (and can be calm, cool, and collected). Otherwise I'll just turn into an angry arguer. 

What I don't know is if she'll agree to turn over her passwords, do the NC, etc. That's the not-for-the-faint-of-heart person.

In my heart I don't think the marriage can be saved, or at the very least it can't become the partnership I envision. Best case is we stop arguing, she quits the EA, and we develop seperate lives under the same roof. She says our relationship problems are my fault, that I was the one who needs to change. 

Neither one of us is going to make the other happy long term. I thought for a long time there was hope for that, but her words now show me otherwise. That is unless someone here can tell me that relationships can often do a 180.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok, then, for now do two things: look up a good keylogger and save the URL on a piece of paper and a credit card, in your wallet; keep an eagle eye on her computer and the moment she's going to be gone for about 10 minutes and it's not locked, grab it, go to the URL, pay for and download the keylogger, and direct it to email YOU the findings.

Two, go get this book: Surviving An Affair. It will explain the steps you need to take to stop her affair and get your marriage back on track.

For now, realize that EVERYTHING that comes out of her mouth is fog babble. She is right now an addict, an alien, and EVERYTHING she says and does is solely for the purpose of getting more of her drug - OM. She will lie, steal, manipulate, blame, and shame her own family, just to keep getting the 'high' of speaking to him. Trust me on this. Ignore everything she says, ESPECIALLY the part about it being all your fault. It's called fog because the addiction keeps them from seeing the 'real' world - in her fog-addled brain, her only real purpose is to get more of her fix. If she tries to talk to you about your relationship and your demise of it, just say 'want a cookie?' It makes just as much sense as what she's saying. Do NOT get dragged into any discussion she can use against you. If you have to say anything else, just say 'I'm fighting to save my marriage' and leave the room.

Once you get your evidence, we'll talk more.


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

turnera said:


> Ok, then, for now do two things: look up a good keylogger and save the URL on a piece of paper and a credit card, in your wallet; keep an eagle eye on her computer and the moment she's going to be gone for about 10 minutes and it's not locked, grab it, go to the URL, pay for and download the keylogger, and direct it to email YOU the findings.


Can I just load it off a USB stick? Or do they not work that way? Any recommendations for a keylogger (Macintosh)?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't think they do, but you'll have to do some research. The most important thing is to have it prepared, as you probably won't have much time.


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

turnera said:


> I don't think they do, but you'll have to do some research. The most important thing is to have it prepared, as you probably won't have much time.


And to be clear... do most folks think this kind of evidence is vital? (If you read all of my other posts there is a lot of circumstantial evidence).


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Yes I believe evidence is important. 1st it prevent WW from denial and makes her face the reality of it when you confront her. 2nd it prevents you from becoming the bad guy when it comes time to expose it to family and friends.

So often her side of the family will want to support her and she will rewrite history to make you out to be the problem. What you want is to have her side of the family support, but support the marriage.
The evidience will help in clarifying that it is there daughter,sister niece that has stepped out of the marriage.

At a legal stand point it really won't matter IDK, the bottom line is having proof that your wife is breaking up the family with an affair and you wanting others to support the marriage not her lies.


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

the guy said:


> Yes I believe evidence is important. 1st it prevent WW from denial and makes her face the reality of it when you confront her. 2nd it prevents you from becoming the bad guy when it comes time to expose it to family and friends.
> 
> So often her side of the family will want to support her and she will rewrite history to make you out to be the problem. What you want is to have her side of the family support, but support the marriage.
> The evidience will help in clarifying that it is there daughter,sister niece that has stepped out of the marriage.
> ...


You've articulated most of my reasons for wanting this. A primary one would be to have unambiguous reasons so my kids one day wouldn't question me if it comes to worst case. I could also write that letter to her parents, so that at the very least they don't demonize me to my kids... and they'd see a side of their daughter that they didn't know. Of course, that's all contingent on me (1) collecting digital information, and (2) for that information to be unambiguous evidence. 

I'm taking a mid-range view on this. I have some things to do -- get parameters on what life is like if a D is necessary, get evidence, get myself in right frame of mind for "the talk." It'll likely not happen until after the family vacation coming up. I don't want to ruin that for the kids. But by that point maybe I'll have things sorted out on my end.

I definitely am not of a mind to let her think she's getting away with "it" (whatever "it" is).


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

HurtAndLost said:


> And to be clear... do most folks think this kind of evidence is vital? (If you read all of my other posts there is a lot of circumstantial evidence).


 Here's why I'm telling you to get the evidence.

If you are going to try to save the marriage, your very MOST important step is to remove the OM from the equation. The best way to do that is to (1) tell her you know she's cheating on you and you have proof; if she won't quit (2) you tell her most important person that she's cheating, offer the proof if they want it, and ask them to talk to her; if that doesn't work, you will (3) go to her parents, her siblings, and her best friends, tell them all she's cheating and ask them to talk to her and let her know that they will NOT support her replacing you with this OM; and, if she still refuses to give him up after exposure, then you will (4) use this evidence as a barganing chip in court when you are discussing child custody so that she doesn't start bringing random men around your children.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

fwiw, I see nothing wrong with you contacting OM right now before their affair gets more deeply intrenched and maybe physical, and letting him know you're on to him and you plan on making his life a living hell if he doesn't back off. Sometimes that's all it takes to run the weasels off.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

turnera said:


> fwiw, I see nothing wrong with you contacting OM right now before their affair gets more deeply intrenched and maybe physical, and letting him know you're on to him and you plan on making his life a living hell if he doesn't back off. Sometimes that's all it takes to run the weasels off.


...and/or the OM's woman if there is one.


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

2xloser said:


> ...and/or the OM's woman if there is one.


The OM doesn't have a woman. If you read back toward the beginning of my post, you'll find that he's a guy living in his parents' basement, with two young girls of his own, the victim of an affair that his wife had. The marriage ended in divorce a year ago.

If this thing with my wife is going where I think it is (or perhaps has gone there), then you can't believe the words I would use for this guy. By my wife's own account, the OM was *destroyed* when he found out about his own wife's infidelity. For him to turn around and do that to any other man would be about as low as you can get.

And... to answer Turnera: if I contact him then I basically tip my hand to my WW. And I'm not ready just yet to tip my hand. The physical affair at this point doesn't matter to me so much bc my feelings are that she's already there mentally. We've had sex 1 time since June of 2009. I can only assume that she'd do it with anyone except me if she made her mind up to do it.


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

turnera said:


> Here's why I'm telling you to get the evidence.
> 
> If you are going to try to save the marriage, your very MOST important step is to remove the OM from the equation. The best way to do that is to (1) tell her you know she's cheating on you and you have proof; if she won't quit (2) you tell her most important person that she's cheating, offer the proof if they want it, and ask them to talk to her; if that doesn't work, you will (3) go to her parents, her siblings, and her best friends, tell them all she's cheating and ask them to talk to her and let her know that they will NOT support her replacing you with this OM; and, if she still refuses to give him up after exposure, then you will (4) use this evidence as a barganing chip in court when you are discussing child custody so that she doesn't start bringing random men around your children.


This is a very good approach...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I thought she already knows you know, and she denied it?


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

turnera said:


> I thought she already knows you know, and she denied it?


She knows that I'm suspicious and yes she denied it. (I pissed her off by essentially calling B.S. on her denials). But she doesn't know what I know. 

Tonight was a very weird, uncomfortable night. She's up at her mother's house b/c our A/C is out (long story). I went up to have dinner with them and the kids b/c they won't be back home until this heat wave backs off. The air in her mother's house was icy, to say the least. I felt like persona non grata. But at least I got to play with my little ones for an hour. 

Of course, she's free to do what she wants up there on her phone and computer.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

turnera said:


> fwiw, I see nothing wrong with you contacting OM right now before their affair gets more deeply intrenched and maybe physical, and letting him know you're on to him and you plan on making his life a living hell if he doesn't back off. *Sometimes that's all it takes to run the weasels *off.


Yes.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Call him. You have your suspicions, that's enough to give him a call. And if she blows up at you (because he runs straight to the phone to call her), then you have all the proof you need.

Why don't you take your wife's mom to the side and talk to her? Tell her what it's like on your side. I GUARANTEE you that your wife is filling her mom with nonsense about how horrible a man you are. I GUARANTEE IT. 

If you address it straightaway, show her that you're still the great guy she used to think you are, you may get an ally. And you're gonna have to expose to her anyway. Better now, before the affair solidifies.


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

HurtAndLost said:


> She knows that I'm suspicious and yes she denied it. (I pissed her off by essentially calling B.S. on her denials). But she doesn't know what I know.
> 
> Tonight was a very weird, uncomfortable night. She's up at her mother's house b/c our A/C is out (long story). I went up to have dinner with them and the kids b/c they won't be back home until this heat wave backs off. The air in her mother's house was icy, to say the least. I felt like persona non grata. But at least I got to play with my little ones for an hour.
> 
> Of course, she's free to do what she wants up there on her phone and computer.


Are you getting ducks lined up or frozen at the thought of doing anything? Because as you're getting things 'perfect' for the big reveal, you are missing opportunity after opportunity, allowing your wife the chance to get closer to the OM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Exactly. This is a TIMING thing, hurt. If you nip it in the bud while she's still contemplating moving forward, you have a very good chance of getting her back. Each day that she professes more emotion for him solidifies in her mind that he is 'the one' and that you were a big waste of time. The stronger her 'drug' starts to rule her body and mind.


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

turnera said:


> Exactly. This is a TIMING thing, hurt. If you nip it in the bud while she's still contemplating moving forward, you have a very good chance of getting her back. Each day that she professes more emotion for him solidifies in her mind that he is 'the one' and that you were a big waste of time. The stronger her 'drug' starts to rule her body and mind.


All good points. I guess I'm really really pessimistic that she ever wants to get "back" with me... at least in the way I want. Before she went to this wedding, she had already checked out, had mucho contempt/lack of respect for me, there was no intimacy *at all* (no contact), and I'm pretty sure she fell out of love with me long ago. She appeared to only be in the marriage for the same reasons that are plaguing me now -- kids and finances. Perhaps that changes when she finds her exit clause with OM, who knows. But I keep asking myself (and so do my close friends) what relationship am I worried about losing.

How do I balance the idea of doing the 180 (ie no pressure on the relationship, acting disinterested) while standing up for myself and confronting her with something critical to the marriage? This is a woman who I *never* win an argument with. And I feel like this is the ultimate argument to win. I pretty much see this next confrontation as many have described it -- Hiroshima. I will be saying to her that I don't trust her anymore and I know stuff b/c I spied on her. There is no way to have this discussion easily. But I know you guys aren't saying it's easy...

So, I guess there is a part of me that is frozen b/c I don't know what the outcome will be. And I guess I wanted to gird myself for any outcome.

Flame away....


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## HurtAndLost (Jul 8, 2011)

and as I read these divorce forums, there is a premium put on the husband/father having his s*** together before the wife decides to kick the D into action... b/c she'll have the upper hand. 

I have a strong sense that it would head there immediately after "the talk", and I don't want to be disadvantaged. 

Again, fire away....


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

HurtAndLost said:


> and as I read these divorce forums, there is a premium put on the husband/father having his s*** together before the wife decides to kick the D into action... b/c she'll have the upper hand.
> 
> I have a strong sense that it would head there immediately after "the talk", and I don't want to be disadvantaged.
> 
> Again, fire away....


You simply tell her carrying on with another man while married to you is unacceptable. She either does all the NC things outlined or she leave the house. Kids stay with you, you want to keep family in tact, her choice to leave. From that point on D is what it is. You have to take that first step though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

Not a flame, but I really don't understand what's keeping you from moving forward. You seem to feel you need to justify to everyone else why you feel the way you do, with evidence to what you already know. Why? It's your life, your family...you do not need to justify to anyone what occurs in your relationship or lack thereof with your wife.

You're saying you're frozen because you fear the consequences, yet you already feel you know what those consequences will be? And you're afraid of losing.....what? A non-intimate, non-respectful, always-wins-arguments wife that your friends even tell you that you're better off without?

She's having an affair. You won't tolerate it. She needs to choose. You think she will choose him. 

So your decision's been made for you. Yes? Then why not put your ducks in a row immediately as to how that 'decision' will then get enacted - and if by some miracle that gets called back because she surprises you and wants to work at it, you can simply call off the plan?

I think you're not really mentally prepared to leave. Get there. The 180 is only to show/demonstrate to her that you will in fact move on without her. You think that's dangerous, because she doesn't care anyway. 

You either want her to decide it's over, or you will stay and grovel and hope...not a good plan, imho. Again, not flaming... really. I feel for you; good luck.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, why don't you just go to a lawyer (AFTER you secure your finances so she can't suck it dry) and get your papers drawn up then, and THEN give her the ultimatum: him or me. When she starts spewing, just calmly hand her the papers and say 'Ok, I see you have chosen. See you in court.'

NOTHING - and I mean nothing - turns a wayward around faster than seeing their betrayed spouse ready to dump them. Nothing.


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