# Sex and patience



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Yesterday I read online that a man was complaining that his wife had only had sex with him a handful of times in the past *2* months. The responses shocked me.

There were several hundred responses. Most of them were leaning toward telling him things like, "Do you want to live in a sexless marriage for the rest of your life?" and to basically divorce his "selfish" wife. 

I kept thinking, "People, it's ONLY been 2 _*MONTHS*_; not 2 _YEARS_!" I realized that the man didn't tell us what their sex life was like BEFORE the 2 month period, but he implied that he was 'satisfied' with it. 

I don't understand why so many people seem to become positively FRANTIC so quickly, if their sex life wans for a bit. They seem hesitant to try TALKING to their spouse/partner about the change, and even if they DO approach them, they don't seem to be willing to wait for the dust to settle. 

It's as if good old fashioned communication has become such a BURDEN in this fast-paced world, along with the sense of entitlement to having it all RIGHT NOW. 

I mean...seriously?!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I felt a profound difference in this area to when I felt my drive was *normal* .. to when it went into *high drive*. I suddenly had very little patience with even THINKING my husband didn't want me as much as I wanted him.. it is what it is.. 

Loving sex.. desiring to be entangled with your lover.. when this is lacking... it can be physically/ emotionally tormenting to some of us.. I'll never forget that time.. It also helped me see how high drivers feel.. I had so much compassion [email protected]#$ 

Now that my sex drive has calmed down some .. back to normal.. a couple times a week will not cause me a hissy fit.. but during that spell.. I had a very hard time leaving him alone. Thankfully he didn't mind !


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

How long would you wait, Vega?

I waited 10 years. And yeah, I communicated. Communication did not really do anything. It's better now. My patience and work paid off, finally. But would I go through 10 years again? I don't know.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I think sometimes the people who respond are going more off experience, where things like "No sex for 2 months" eventually morphed into a sexless marriage. So although some people may overreact, it is in part probably b/c that is how things started for them before going down the crapper.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> How long would you wait, Vega?
> 
> I waited 10 years. And yeah, I communicated. Communication did not really do anything. It's better now. My patience and work paid off, finally. But would I go through 10 years again? I don't know.


I went through 10 years as well, and I know for sure that I wouldn't do it again. Not for 10 years, or for 2 months. The patience card has been played. The only card left is the no more chances card.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> How long would you wait, Vega?


That is EXACTLY the point! It would depend on what was going on with BOTH of us. 

Life changes. It's not consistent. Today I'm working only ONE part-time job. Tomorrow, I may end up working this job AND a full time job. 

If that happens, there will be some obvious changes. I may not be able to work out 5 days a week. I may not be able to go shopping whenever I want. My car is on its last legs, and if it finally bites the dust, I may have to spend some money from that new full time job to buy a new one...

And when kids are thrown into the mix, there are a whole host of other issues. 

The point is, that it seems pointless to jump to conclusions that a stagnant sex life for only 2 months is going to be permanent, ESPECIALLY, if we don't try to communicate with our spouse/partner to find out what's going on, or to reveal to THEM what's going on with OURSELVES!


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

just compare it to other things, e.g., what if a man didn't talk to his wife for 2 months

it's pretty easy to see that some things can quickly become serious problems


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> How long would you wait, Vega?
> 
> I waited 10 years. And yeah, I communicated. Communication did not really do anything. It's better now. My patience and work paid off, finally. But would I go through 10 years again? I don't know.


I think 10 years might be a bit extreme. You said that you DID "communicate" during that time, but I have no way of knowing if you were trying to communicate the "right" way. (Hey! Sorry to say--and I'm by no means accusing YOU of this--but some people think that yelling, screaming, cursing, threatening and insulting someone is a form of 'communication'!)


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I think sometimes the people who respond are going more off experience, where things like "No sex for 2 months" eventually morphed into a sexless marriage. So although some people may overreact, it is in part probably b/c that is how things started for them before going down the crapper.


I understand what you're saying, Ellis. But during that "sexless marriage", HOW did they try to communicate?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

And of course we have a huge selection bias here - we rarely hear from the person who goes through a 2 month dry spell, only to have everything return to peachy keen. So we have no idea how big a problem this really is except through the jaded (dare I say crappy baggage laden again) view.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Not for 10 years, or for 2 months. The patience card has been played. The only card left is the no more chances card.


THIS attitude is what would cause me to believe that a man ONLY wanted me for sex. 

If he couldn't see that my life has possibly taken a 'turn', and his only concern was how often he was getting laid...


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> just compare it to other things, e.g., what if a man didn't talk to his wife for 2 months
> 
> it's pretty easy to see that some things can quickly become serious problems


Once again, it would depend on what's going on. If he was stationed overseas in a combat zone well...

But if nothing really changed in our lives, I wouldn't let his non-communication go on for 2 months, lol!


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Vega said:


> Once again, it would depend on what's going on. If he was stationed overseas in a combat zone well...
> 
> But if nothing really changed in our lives, I wouldn't let his non-communication go on for 2 months, lol!


OK, so why should he accept no sex for 2 months then?


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Cletus said:


> And of course we have a huge selection bias here - we rarely hear from the person who goes through a 2 month dry spell, only to have everything return to peachy keen. So we have no idea how big a problem this really is except through the jaded (dare I say crappy baggage laden again) view.



(Just now realizing that I should have responded to everyone in ONE post instead of slamming the thread! My bad...:frown2

I agree, Cletus. I mean, TAM isn't the only forum I browse on a day-to-day basis. Sometimes I'll google a question, and come across some pretty interesting articles, along with comments. But it seems that lately I've been seeing more and more how people are having RECENT issues, and are so willing to toss in the towel without so much as trying to communicate with their partner/spouse...AND, that time-frame seems to be between 2-5 months. 

I feel for people who have been in an otherwise sexless marriage for 10 years, but that's the opposite end of the spectrum from only 2 months. 

Communication is key, and not many people seem willing or knowledgable (or both) as to HOW or even WHEN to do this.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> OK, so why should he accept no sex for 2 months then?


I didn't say that he "should" accept it. Once again, It depends on _circumstances_.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Vega said:


> THIS attitude is what would cause me to believe that a man ONLY wanted me for sex.
> 
> If he couldn't see that my life has possibly taken a 'turn', and his only concern was how often he was getting laid...


If a man only wanted you for sex, I can guarantee you without a shadow of a doubt that he wouldn't wait around for 10 years.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

Cletus said:


> And of course we have a huge selection bias here - we rarely hear from the person who goes through a 2 month dry spell, only to have everything return to peachy keen. So *we have no idea how big a problem this really is except through the jaded (dare I say crappy baggage laden again) view.*


agreed.
This is common all over TAM. Many of us are here because we had/have issues in our marriages. We see problems with sex on a thread and are immediate thrown into Post Traumatic Sex flashbacks.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

sixty-eight said:


> agreed.
> This is common all over TAM. Many of us are here because we had/have issues in our marriages. We see problems with sex on a thread and are immediate thrown into Post Traumatic Sex flashbacks.


Your user name makes me chuckle every time.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Your user name makes me chuckle every time.


It always seems to leave me wanting just a little bit more...


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Vega said:


> THIS attitude is what would cause me to believe that a man ONLY wanted me for sex.
> 
> If he couldn't see that my life has possibly taken a 'turn', and his only concern was how often he was getting laid...


I sense your viewing it as "ONLY" sex. Sex with my wife is the most intense BONDING event I have ever found. I could spend a month with her at a nice beach side resort, going to shows, concerts, etc. MEH. Throw in some screw each others brains out, I WILL WALK OVER BURNING COALS FOR THAT WOMAN!!!!


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> If a man only wanted you for sex, I can guarantee you without a shadow of a doubt that he wouldn't wait around for 10 years.


Would he wait around for 2 _months_?

Would he be willing to accept her reasons for the 'slow down'? 

If not, then I would assume that sex is more important to him than the _WOMAN_ behind the vagina...


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I went through 10 years as well, and I know for sure that I wouldn't do it again. Not for 10 years, or for 2 months. The patience card has been played. The only card left is the no more chances card.


I'm just curious, WorkingOnMe...
Are you saying you wouldn't wait 2 months for the woman who kept you waiting for 10 years? Or do you mean you wouldn't wait 2 months for ANY woman?

I could understand the first case (ruling out medical issues). But I'd hate to think that a new partner would go straight to the no more chances card!


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> I sense your viewing it as "ONLY" sex. Sex with my wife is the most intense BONDING event I have ever found. *I could spend a month with her at a nice beach side resort, going to shows, concerts, etc. MEH*. Throw in some screw each others brains out, I WILL WALK OVER BURNING COALS FOR THAT WOMAN!!!!


If I had ANY man ever do that for/with ME (what is *bolded*) , I'd be WANTING to screw his brains out! :x

LOL! Dang, I suddenly feel like I've led a deprived life! 

And this thread isn't even about ME!!!


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

When sex talk starts you never have to wonder who is HD or LD. They'll tell you if you listen carefully, but it just keep thinking you probably shouldn't judge people when you've never walk in their shoes.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Vega said:


> If I had ANY man ever do that for/with ME (what is *bolded*) , I'd be WANTING to screw his brains out! :x


Unfortunately, while I haven't been able to afford a month, I've spent weeks at a time doing what I listed above. After which my wife still has a "Hurry up & get it over with" attitude. Granted, she has baggage issues, which ended up with me finding TAM.

It all goes back to the 5 Love Languages I guess.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Vega said:


> THIS attitude is what would cause me to believe that a man ONLY wanted me for sex.
> 
> If he couldn't see that my life has possibly taken a 'turn', and his only concern was how often he was getting laid...


I get what she's saying here. It's not about "It's only sex, what's the big deal?". 
It's about, " I'm struggling with some serious crap right now, and if you would leave me after not getting laid for 2 months, obviously you care about my vagina more than the rest of me!"

This is assuming an otherwise stable relationship without a lot of dry spells. If 2 months was a deal breaker, my marriage wouldn't have made it past my first post-partem recovery period!


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Ok, not trying to be annoying but would the same circumstances excuse other expressions of intimacy/connectedness like talking?

I'm just trying to drill down on whether the excuses work for sex only.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> Ok, not trying to be annoying but would the same circumstances excuse other expressions of intimacy/connectedness like talking?
> 
> I'm just trying to drill down on whether the excuses work for sex only.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How about working?

" I'm sorry your hungry wifey I'm just dealing with a case of the lazy a$$, I'll be over it soon"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> Your user name makes me chuckle every time.





Cletus said:


> It always seems to leave me wanting just a little bit more...


lol!

i thought i should be up front with my marriage problems 
i didn't realize it was a common term though. i wondered if a lot of people wouldn't get it.

I am both pleased and saddened to realize it is much more common than i thought.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

tornado said:


> How about working?
> 
> " I'm sorry your hungry wifey I'm just dealing with a case of the lazy a$$, I'll be over it soon"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not sure that one is quite the same thing.

But if having sex with my boyfriend would pay our bills and put food on the table, we'd probably never leave the house...


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

NoSizeQueen said:


> I'm just curious, WorkingOnMe...
> Are you saying you wouldn't wait 2 months for the woman who kept you waiting for 10 years? Or do you mean you wouldn't wait 2 months for ANY woman?
> 
> I could understand the first case (ruling out medical issues). But I'd hate to think that a new partner would go straight to the no more chances card!


sometimes i see exactly why it would go straight to the no more chances card.

it's all circumstances. With Mr.68 i understand when he doesn't want to have sex because he is working early, or if he's sick. But when his excuse is "Groooooaaaannn we just had sex 2 weeks ago"? I don't feel so zen about it.

with a new partner? if i started hearing i have a headache, we just had sex 3 weeks ago noise? it's not that it would be no more chances, it would be more like a giant waving glow in the dark red flag to run away.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

This thread would be more exciting if it was titled "Sex With Patients "...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

NoSizeQueen said:


> I'm just curious, WorkingOnMe...
> Are you saying you wouldn't wait 2 months for the woman who kept you waiting for 10 years? Or do you mean you wouldn't wait 2 months for ANY woman?
> 
> I could understand the first case (ruling out medical issues). But I'd hate to think that a new partner would go straight to the no more chances card!



I'm saying my wife has used up her lifetime quota of dry spells. 'Circumstances' are just excuses at this point, barring a medical issue (which i've been through fairly recently and was quite understanding about). It is kind of a fool me once shame on you, full me twice shame on me ssituation. Anyway, this is more of a theoretical discussion at this point as she is currently quite a bit higher drive than I am.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> If a man only wanted you for sex, I can guarantee you without a shadow of a doubt that he wouldn't wait around for 10 years.


Well that's not really true...because some men, even though they only want their wife for sex, aren't in love with her anymore (or maybe never were), and basically hate her guts, will still stick around because of financial reasons. Many of these will get sex on the side or see sex workers.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well that's not really true...because some men, even though they only want their wife for sex, aren't in love with her anymore (or maybe never were), and basically hate her guts, will still stick around because of financial reasons. Many of these will get sex on the side or see sex workers.


Yeah I suppose that's true. I'd like to think that's a minority situation. I can't see sticking it out for 10 years with someone I hate just for money though.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Yeah I suppose that's true. I'd like to think that's a minority situation. I can't see sticking it out for 10 years with someone I hate just for money though.


If you didn't have personal morals against cheating or using sex workers, and if you had a lot of money at stake and the fact of not seeing your children at night if you divorced...then could you see it?

It happens all the time.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> If you didn't have personal morals against cheating or using sex workers, and if you had a lot of money at stake and the fact of not seeing your children at night if you divorced...then could you see it?
> 
> It happens all the time.


often if it's for the money, it's a mutual situation. They are both staying in a sexless(with each other) marriage for the money/status/family. The woman is frigid, or banging the pool boy/tennis pro, and the husband has a mistress/hookers or is banging the pool boy/tennis pro.

in that case, i think i'd have to go with what's good for the gander is good for the goose and call it an open marriage. IMO if you both hate each other and don't sleep with each other, then that turns it into a whole other thing. No longer is it sexless with all the desire on one side. Now it's more of a business arrangement.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Usually a person like I described is not going to be honest about it, because they know their spouse won't want an open relationship. If they tell them they are outsourcing sex and just waiting until they can get out without losing money or until the kids are out, the spouse is going to freak out on them, and they know it. The spouse will then have the moral high ground since the other cheated or is about to cheat, so the cheater isn't likely to give them that upper hand. As I said, usually this happens when someone only wants their spouse for sex and isn't in love any more or maybe ever.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Faithful Wife laying some truth bombs.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Sorry I don't hate my wife or any of the other stuff. This isn't the first time you've said these things after I've posted. Whatever.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Sorry I don't hate my wife or any of the other stuff. This isn't the first time you've said these things after I've posted. Whatever.


Doooood...I wasn't talking about you. I was responding to what Fozzy said.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Fair enough. You've pm'd me asking why I hate my wife in the past so maybe I'm a bit sensitive.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> Usually a person like I described is not going to be honest about it, because they know their spouse won't want an open relationship. If they tell them they are outsourcing sex and just waiting until they can get out without losing money or until the kids are out, the spouse is going to freak out on them, and they know it. The spouse will then have the moral high ground since the other cheated or is about to cheat, so the cheater isn't likely to give them that upper hand. As I said, usually this happens when someone only wants their spouse for sex and isn't in love any more or maybe ever.


I wasn't talking about honesty. I meant more that they are both doing it and just pretend it's not happening, also, both might not be in the know. As in, wife catches husband, and instead of confronting, she just goes and does her own thing because money.

Or the more classic scenarios are 
1) the wife is frigid, and sometimes she even knows it's going on, or suspects. Or sometimes everyone but her knows about it, and keeps the secret.
2) The older wealthy man marries a younger beautiful trophy wife. He works a lot. She's bored.

But these are far from the average sexless marriage.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Fair enough. You've pm'd me asking why I hate my wife in the past so maybe I'm a bit sensitive.


Yes I did and you said you don't so....I took your word for it. Trust me, I don't really care either way.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Vega said:


> Yesterday I read online that a man was complaining that his wife had only had sex with him a handful of times in the past *2* months. The responses shocked me.
> 
> There were several hundred responses. Most of them were leaning toward telling him things like, "Do you want to live in a sexless marriage for the rest of your life?" and to basically divorce his "selfish" wife.
> 
> ...



For me, having a high healthy sex drive HD, sex only 1x every 2 months is nothing. I would be taking care of business with my sex toy long ago.

Unfortunately, sexual mismatch is quite common today. HD spouse needs sex almost every day and multiple times a day even. LD spouse could have sex 1x month, so 2x in 2 months and they're just fine with that.

What happens?

The HD spouse goes stir crazy and takes care of business that their loving spouse should be doing.

When married you are not your own anymore. His body is now hers and her body is now his.

He is to take care of her needs as his own and she is to take care of his needs as her own.

Marriage is 50 / 50 and not 90 / 10.

If one spouse, LD for example, isn't taking care of their other spouses needs, problems arise. 

So sex 1x month, or 2x in 2 months is a sexless marriage.

Healthy marriages / relationships would want sex as often as possible. Maybe sex every 2nd day, 3 to 4x week. And on the non sex days, just talk and cuddle and do things together.

Starving a spouse sexually is not worthy of being in a marriage.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

hehehehe....Nooooooooo:grin2:

We had sex a few evenings ago actually. Best oral in a very long time.:wink2:

But she definitely is LD no doubt.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Having lived the hell that was a sexless marriage I will NEVER EVER EVER live that way again. Forget about 2 months, my tolerance level is two weeks. 

I agree with whoever said that some of the responses come from a BTDT perspective and those of us that have live this in the past know all too well the danger that lies ahead for some of the other posters here. If I had my time again I would have appreciated some of these warnings, maybe nothing would have changed but I certainly would have gotten out of the marriage earlier.

Mr H and I are both from past sexless marriages (for different reasons) and we have a very solid agreement about our expectations. I would not have an issue if sex slowed down due to valid reasons but if it slowed down for no good reason then he would get the old "on your back or on your way" line.

Do I consider him just a d.ick on legs? No way, I love this man with all my heart but past experiences have made me a bit ruthless in this area. It works for us and it forces us to have very open and honest communication about our sex life and our lives in general.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I am female with what I would consider a normal sex drive (not a low drive nor a high drive) but I understand what it means particularly for the male of the species. Sex is as important as eating, that is all I need to know, someone once told me that and I think that about sums it up!


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I think a lot of the "sex and patience" (still holding out hope someone starts a Sex with Patients thread :grin2 really comes down to where the relationship started. For example, if at the start of a relationship things are hot and heavy, I think you have a right to expect that as the relationship progresses. After all, that could be a key factor in pursuing the relationship in the first place. I would guess many of the issues with sexless marriages, sex (or lack thereof) was not an issue at the onset of the relationship. After that there could be a myriad of reasons for the relationship turning sexless (health issues, family life, mismatched drives, stress, issues with SO, etc...). 

I know with my wife and I, we let raising a young family get the better of us. It eventually got to the point where I decided things needed to change as we were heading down a bad path. We talked things through, and for the most part things have gotten a lot better (I would actually say now sex has been better than at any other point in our relationship). It is still a struggle at times, but honestly you have to expect that and just work through.

As is, if you don't have a strong connection with your SO I can see a sexless marriage being very difficult to work through.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> For example, if at the start of a relationship things are hot and heavy, *I think you have a right to expect that as the relationship progresses*. After all, that could be a key factor in pursuing the relationship in the first place.
> .


I do not agree with this. 

All relationships change. Circumstances change. You both may begin the relationship having decent day jobs. But if one of you loses your job, and you've been unemployed for 6 months...and money is starting to get tight...and you find a job that's good money, but it's at night, what are you going to do? Demand that the frequency of sex ALWAYS remains the same? 

Before we know it, we're going to insist that our partner NEVER changes. Never gets wrinkles...never has thinning hair...never experiences hormonal imbalances, making sex painful...never becomes clinically depressed because of the death of a parent or a child...

I would hope that someone isn't pursing a relationship with the sole purpose or MAJOR purpose of having sex. If he or she does, then I hope he or she is mature enough to discuss it with his or her partner in the VERY BEGINNING of the relationship to make sure they're both on the same page.

Though I agree that we have the right to expect sex in a marriage, I don't believe we have the right to ALWAYS expect the same amount of frequency as at the beginning of the relationship. Personally, I see sex as a gift of marriage, and I would be hard pressed to "expect" a gift of any type. 

Maybe it has something to do with _gratitude_...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Vega said:


> I do not agree with this.
> 
> All relationships change. Circumstances change. You both may begin the relationship having decent day jobs. But if one of you loses your job, and you've been unemployed for 6 months...and money is starting to get tight...and you find a job that's good money, but it's at night, what are you going to do? Demand that the frequency of sex ALWAYS remains the same?
> 
> ...


Sorry, that wasn't necessarily what I meant. Obviously there are different things going on when you first meet someone vs years down the road. My point was moreso if you start a relationship and have a healthy sex life, I still believe you have a right to expect that as your relationship grows (yes, the definition of what is considered a healthy sex life can change along the way, and it doesn't mean there won't be ups and downs).

Also, no one said that the sole/major purpose of a relationship is sex, but to imply that it is not a significant factor I feel is inaccurate. I wonder how many people would continue with a relationship if from the onset the sex was bad, non existent?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Ok, sex is a gift. Of course.

But so is everything else.

Sex is not unique. If you stop giving in the sex department, you shouldn't be surprised when your partner feels less enthusiastic about giving in other departments. They're all inter-related.

Instead, what often seems to happen in these situations is the LD spouse pulls back on sex, but expects the HD spouse to maintain all of the other niceties. Then, when the HD spouse gets tired of it, the LD spouse says, "see, this is why you aren't getting sex."

In effect, it is a transfer of the responsibility of maintaining the relationship from one person to another.

The HD person is supposed to just understand that the LD person is not interested. But the LD person is free to blame the HD person when he/she loses interest.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I wonder how many people would continue with a relationship if from the onset the sex was bad, non existent?


Interesting. 

My mother and father dated for 3 years before they got married. According to my father and mother, my father married a virgin. Plus, it seems to be that way for MANY people from my mother's generation. "Good girls" didn't have sex before marriage. And they didn't necessarily date for only a few weeks or months before getting married. We've even heard on TAM that there are a few men who were virgins when they married, and that they married a virgin bride. 

And yes, we'll get the occasional "sex-was-bad-from-the-beginning" folks. 

Someone on another thread wondered if one can cycle thru HD and LD in the same relationship. I certainly believe so. In fact, I know of one such couple who went thru something like that. She said that they were having sex about 3-4 times a week for several years. Then it was HE who tapered off, until...nothing. 

For 10 years.

During that time, she didn't coerce, manipulate, jump up and down, scream, rant, rave or even try TALKING to him about it. Then one day, out of the blue, he 'grabbed her', and the sex has become even MORE frequent than in the beginning. 

I guess we have to evaluate the ENTIRE relationship, and not only the parts that are lacking in order to determine whether or not a relationship/marriage is TRULY "sexless".


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Vega said:


> I guess we have to evaluate the ENTIRE relationship, and not only the parts that are lacking in order to determine whether or not a relationship/marriage is TRULY "sexless".


Very true, and each person in the relationship may have a different definition of what "sexless" is. You could argue that a sexless marriage could simply be a symptom of other issues in the relationship, so without fixing those issues you can't fix the "sexless" part. 

I actually just found out that my cousin cheated on her husband (this hit me kind of hard, never really knew anyone close to me who had cheated) and her main reason was that she was in a sexless marriage for nearly 4 years.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

Sex is not a gift, not some reward for being good. Is a husband working a gift? How about being a good father, husband? Is a women being a good mother a gift? These are obligations, just like sex. If two grown people choose to get married then they know that sex is involved in tjat commitment. I don't understand why people want to put sex on a different level than other requirements in a marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Good sex SHOULD have an element of selfishness. Just not completely so. It should be a gift to yourself as much as your partner.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

tornado said:


> Sex is not a gift, not some reward for being good. Is a husband working a gift? How about being a good father, husband? Is a women being a good mother a gift? These are obligations, just like sex. If two grown people choose to get married then they know that sex is involved in tjat commitment. I don't understand why people want to put sex on a different level than other requirements in a marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's a different type of requirement. I still need to work and take care of my kids, even if I'm single. I can get by without sex if I must.

I'm not saying it's not important, because it IS important. But if sex is just an obligation, then why don't people like receiving duty sex?

Maybe it's more accurate to say that meeting sexual needs is an obligation, but good and joyful sex is a gift. You can't force someone to have joyful sex, they must offer it freely. If they don't offer it, it's joyless duty sex.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

NoSizeQueen said:


> It's a different type of requirement. I still need to work and take care of my kids, even if I'm single. I can get by without sex if I must.
> 
> I'm not saying it's not important, because it IS important. But if sex is just an obligation, then why don't people like receiving duty sex?
> 
> Maybe it's more accurate to say that meeting sexual needs is an obligation, but good and joyful sex is a gift. You can't force someone to have joyful sex, they must offer it freely. If they don't offer it, it's joyless duty sex.


Agreed. You can't make someone more or less sexual, or enthusiastic. I'm saying that so many people who would divorce their spouse in a second for being abusive, poor father, unwilling to work will in the same conversation say "you really wanna divorce over sex?" I'm saying that in a healthy relationship sex is just as important and vital as those other things. It's just a double standard. If a spouse divorced because the other refused to work, do housework, help with kids everyone would agree 100%. If a spouse divorced because of a sexless marriage 50% of people wouldn't understand or think that was crazy. It truly confuses me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Tornado, I agree with you. But I'd also like to point out that I divorced because my husband was a bad partner who didn't help with housework or childcare (along other issues), and lots of people insisted that didn't make sense, and I must be leaving him for another man. Only people who had been in that situation understood, and I think it works the same way when you end a marriage over sex.

I think that if there's not outright abuse or infidelity involved, people will always judge ending a marriage. Sometimes you just can't win.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Vega said:


> THIS attitude is what would cause me to believe that a man ONLY wanted me for sex.
> 
> If he couldn't see that my life has possibly taken a 'turn', and his only concern was how often he was getting laid...


As someone who has been in a true SSM, and through a lot of self change and the help of a great sex therapist reconnected with my wife, I think I have some insights that might help you better understand why some might be alarmed a a 2 month dry spell.

For me the emotional scars or wounds of having been in an SSM are very deep. Think of it like PTSD. My wife of 44+ years and I generally now have sex twice a week, which is what the sex therapist helped us negotiate so that we would stay married. Toward the end of 2009, sex frequency deteriorated to not at all, from once every month or two.

I totally understand my wife not wanting to have sex when she comes down with the flu. However, 2 months is a long time for someone who has previously been traumatized by being in an SSM. 

It is not self-centered and only about "getting laid." It is about having "emotional connection and intimacy" in a marriage. The reason I have sex with my wife is mostly so that I will feel emotionally close and connected to her. If her priorities are such that "our continued marriage and emotional connection" are at the bottom of her list for 2 full months, then something is seriously wrong with our marriage/relationship.

I hope that if after two months my wife told me that I just wanted to get laid, I would find that to be a totally inappropriate comment. 

Please listen to the following TED talk. Listen to it and think about the pain that is in an SSM marriage, especially from the 8 to 13 minute mark. You might then understand that it is not "just getting laid."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep2MAx95m20



Vega said:


> ....Communication is key, and not many people seem willing or knowledgable (or both) as to HOW or even WHEN to do this.


Yes and no. There are some good and interesting ideas about communications. 

David Schnarch in his book Passionate Marriage points out that old married couples don't need to verbally communicate as much as newlyweds or dating couples. Partly because they have discussed everything several times, they have had the same arguments over and over again with no resolution. They communicate freely, but by eye contact, tone of voice, body language. So it is not a problem of communication, because they are still communicating, just not verbally. 

Schnarch would argue that their problem is really a problem of not having reached a negotiated compromise that both can live with. It is a problem of not growing together in marriage, not self-soothing, as they stretch each other to find compromise.

Is it poor verbal communication that causes problems? Sometimes not. 

In my case Chapman's 5 languages of love really helped me understand that not using "YOU" words was not what was causing the problem with my wife. It was that her "love languages" were foreign to me and mine foreign to my wife. 

Once I understood her "love languages," I did things that made her feel loved and cherished. Things like bringing her coffee in bed in the morning and having us drink our coffee together in bed while we both wake up and then engaging in quality time. Actions, sometimes speak much louder than words. My wife starts each day feeling loved and cherished in her love languages.

That doesn't mean verbal communication is worthless. My wife and I have gone through a Gottman weekend training session to help us "verbally negotiate" what they call "grid lock" issues in our marriage.

So my perspective it that it is not really communications that is the problem in most marriages, but willingness to change, willingness to negotiate compromise that will bring happiness to both, willingness to grow, willingness to learn new ways of interacting and pleasing our spouse.

Your mileage may vary.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Young at Heart said:


> For me the emotional scars or wounds of having been in an SSM are very deep. Think of it like PTSD.
> 
> It is not self-centered and only about "getting laid." It is about having "emotional connection and intimacy"


Hmm...I think I just had a lightbulb moment, and I hope I'm not going to derail the thread, but...

I'm starting to believe that perhaps one reason WHY a lot of women may be LD or (NO drive) is because of something like PTSD. 

When I was growing up and just learning about boys and sex, I heard that "boys only want one thing". Now, I'm sorry...but I HARDLY think that a teenage boy is looking at sex as having an "emotional connection and intimacy". He's not looking to have a child, and he's probably not looking to start a family. Or even to "fall in love". He's looking for an orgasm, and he wants a girl to provide it. Period. 

Just imagine hearing that message CONSTANTLY. You meet a boy...you like each other...he kisses you, and before you know it, he's starting to put his hand up your shirt. Rinse and repeat a few times, and guess what? You get the distinct impression that_ MALES only want ONE THING._ That attitude doesn't necessarily change because a man gets married--unfortunately--as can be attested by many women here on TAM. 

So after that short rant, I've come full circle. When a man says that he's unwilling to wait for even 2 MONTHS for his wife to snap out of her funk, or to try to find out what the problem could be without jumping the gun to DIVORCE right away, I have to wonder...


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

tornado said:


> Sex is not a gift, not some reward for being good. Is a husband working a gift? How about being a good father, husband? Is a women being a good mother a gift? These are *obligations*, just like sex. If two grown people choose to get married then they know that sex is involved in tjat commitment. I don't understand why people want to put sex on a different level than other* requirements *in a marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Obligation. Requirement. Duty. Responsibility. Isn't ANYTHING in marriage done because you WANT to do it? Isn't ANYTHING done out of LOVE without attaching some "obligation" to it JUST BECAUSE WE'RE *MARRIED*?

If I cooked for my husband BEFORE we married, I didn't do so out of obligation; I did so out of LOVE. How I viewed it AFTER we were married didn't change for me. 

But it did for HIM. 

Suddenly EVERYTHING I did was out of a 'duty' or 'responsibility' or 'obligation'. If I put gas in his car, I did so because it was one of my 'responsibilities', and not because I wanted to do something nice for him. 

If I cooked for him (we switched on and off between us) it was because I HAD to cook for him. 

If I told him that I loved him, I did so because I HAD to, simply because I was his wife--and, it was my MORAL OBLIGATION to tell him that I love him. 

Sheesh. If this is the way that people view marriage, all I have to say is that it doesn't surprise me that so many married people look for affairs outside of marriage. Perhaps they feel that when their affair partner tells them they love them, it's more believable to them because it's VOLUNTARY; and not an OBLIGATION.

ETA: (Sorry...I hit 'send' by mistake before I finished my thought)

If everything in marriage is viewed as an 'obligation' a 'duty' and/or a 'responsibility', that means that sex is viewed the same way (which was already pointed out by a previous poster). Why in the world would I want to have sex with someone out of "duty"? Suddenly, it wouldn't be FUN any more! And if sex IS truly a 'duty', then no matter what kind of sex we're having, or how often we're having it, it is ALWAYS going to be "duty sex". 

No wonder why I'm so turned off to marriage these days.

Just one more thing...

Sex doesn't seem to be expected ONLY in marriage. It seems to be expected PERIOD. Whether you're married, engaged, living together, "going steady" or even on a date...it's often expected. Even if you're single, IT'S STILL EXPECTED. 

When is a woman allowed to say 'no' to sex without getting a ration of S***?


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

Vega said:


> Obligation. Requirement. Duty. Responsibility. Isn't ANYTHING in marriage done because you WANT to do it? Isn't ANYTHING done out of LOVE without attaching some "obligation" to it JUST BECAUSE WE'RE *MARRIED*?
> 
> If I cooked for my husband BEFORE we married, I didn't do so out of obligation; I did so out of LOVE. How I viewed it AFTER we were married didn't change for me.
> 
> ...


I'm speaking of responsibility in marriage only. If a person is not ready to meet their spouses needs be it sexual, mental, or emotional out of love or obligation or whatever word you use. Don't marry that person. 

When you enter into a intimate monogamous relationship, those are the requirements. If you feel you can't do those things don't marry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

tornado said:


> I'm speaking of responsibility in marriage only. If a person is not ready to meet their spouses needs be it sexual, mental, or emotional out of love or obligation or whatever word you use. Don't marry that person.
> 
> When you enter into a intimate monogamous relationship, those are the requirements. If you feel you can't do those things don't marry.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Part of the problem I have with this is that anyone can say that ANYTHING they WANT is a "NEED". If my husband wakes up at 3 a.m. does he get to wake ME up to have sex so he can go back to sleep, claiming that he "needs" sex in order to go back to sleep? Is it my responsibility to meet his 'need'? 

What about him meeting *MY* need for sleep? If I meet his "need" several times a week, HE might walk around feeling great, while *I* might physically be exhausted. Does his 'need' for sex in order to go back to sleep _trump_ my 'need' for 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep?

And likewise, does a woman "need" her husband to bring her 12 long stemmed roses _every day _in order to feel 'loved'? A man could easily go broke on trying to fulfill this "need"! Does her 'need' for flowers every day trump his need to have enough money for _both_ of them to survive? Is he then required to make enough money to fulfill her 'need'? 

Consider this post from TAM member 6301 from the thread "Female Sex Addicts": 



6301 said:


> My first wife was over the top when it came to sex. At first it was great but as time went on _she became demanding _and got really ugly when it came to sex. With me it got to the point that _it wasn't fun any more _because of her attitude and behavior and *it became a job*.


I can't tell you how many women experience the same situation on a daily basis. 

If 6301's wife wanted sex 8 times a week, he may have been in heaven at first. But if she started _demanding_ sex, claiming that it was his 'obligation' or 'duty' to satisfy her when SHE wanted, heaven might descend into hell very quickly. 

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that we should use our marital/relationship status as an excuse to get what we want when we want, and mask it as an 'obligation'. Seems a bit too convenient to me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Vega,
But that's not how this really works in a good marriage. 

In a good marriage there are two types of 'factors' that impact desire. Those that are or should be clearly visible to a partner. And those that are not, or might not be visible to that partner. 

For the former case, the higher drive partner shows compassion. And the partner impacted by - illness - stress - whatever - makes a good faith effort to maintain some level of sexual activity. 

This is a perfect example of where a healthy sexual dynamic becomes far more critical. In a healthy sexual dynamic BOTH folks are equally comfortable initiating. 

For instance, when M2 had morning sickness I immediately and completely stopped initiating. I left it to her to do so if and when she didn't feel nauseous. My focus was on taking care of her. And in those moments she felt good, she did initiate. 

In cases where the underlying factor isn't visible, the responsability for expressing what was happening and why, falls on the person whose desire level is impacted. 

It is seriously unkind to sharply drop frequency and leave a partner in the dark as to why. And every bit as unkind to put the burden on them - to ask what the heck is happening. 

The ugly truth is that a lot of lower drive folks use what was originally a valid issue - as the basis for creating a 'new normal' that their partners intensely dislike. 

Disclaimer: The bad behavior described above is based on reading and comments from friends. We have close friends who are 20 years into their marriage and about 3 years ago the husband who had just turned 52, decided he was done having sex. They are both healthy and fit and attractive. He has NEVER told his wife why. Just makes excuses and tells her everything is 'fine'. But it's not fine for her. 

M2 has been a stellar partner in and out of bed for 25+ years now. 
So the more I hear and read, the luckier I feel. 





Vega said:


> I do not agree with this.
> 
> All relationships change. Circumstances change. You both may begin the relationship having decent day jobs. But if one of you loses your job, and you've been unemployed for 6 months...and money is starting to get tight...and you find a job that's good money, but it's at night, what are you going to do? Demand that the frequency of sex ALWAYS remains the same?
> 
> ...


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

You need to use an example that is more apples to apples, not sex to roses.

If my wife started limiting physical intimacy, which I NEED, to remain emotionally connected to her, she would revert to being a room mate That I have kids with. Since you say sex is a want and not a need, then, when I start to disconnect emotionally from my wife and stop communication with her, stop saying I love you and other forms of intimate behavior, is OK. 
After all intimacy is a want, not a need. I do not need to communicate in an intimate way to live. But my wife thinks she needs for me to Tell her I love her..
That example would be like you saying communication is NOT a need it is a want. 

When there is little physical intimacy my wife can tell me 10 times a day she loves me but to me I feel it is bull shut as due to the lack, I am emotionally disconnected and do not feel loved of wanted.

Maybe for you to feel loved and wanted is a want, but to me it is a need.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Want or need, it doesn't matter how you define it, but I come down on the side of sex and intimacy being a real need. If you don't want it, then marriage isn't something I'd want with you. After a while, I'll NEED a divorce!

How and when the want/need is met, is a matter of negotiation and circumstances. There may be periods of time when you can't or won't for GOOD reasons, but I have an expectation that marriage involves sex. If it doesn't because one person refuses or loses attraction - and there's no medical reason to not have sex - then it's unreasonable to expect the marriage to last. If you can't handle intimacy and sex, don't marry! It's an incredibly selfish thing to do if satisfying your wants for such a relationship curtails your partners options for what makes a good relationship for them.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Want or need, it doesn't matter how you define it, but I come down on the side of sex and intimacy being a real need. If you don't want it, then marriage isn't something I'd want with you. After a while, I'll NEED a divorce!
> 
> How and when the want/need is met, is a matter of negotiation and circumstances. There may be periods of time when you can't or won't for GOOD reasons, but I have an expectation that marriage involves sex. If it doesn't because one person refuses or loses attraction - and there's no medical reason to not have sex - then it's unreasonable to expect the marriage to last. If you can't handle intimacy and sex, don't marry! It's an incredibly selfish thing to do if satisfying your wants for such a relationship curtails your partners options for what makes a good relationship for them.



Well spoken!!!!!


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

Dear Vega,

There is no such thing in a marriage as "just sex". Getting no sex in marriage entails a whole lot for the one who gets shut down: feeling rejected, unwanted, unattractive, low self-esteem, loneliness, depression, unreleased tension, which leads to neurosis... Are your hypothetical problems big enough for you to put your partner through this? If so, then one has to wonder about the one thing you need him for - money, house, kids?.. 

Another twist: if sex has so little importance (want versus need as in desert versus main course) then why not allow him have it with someone else who wants it? I know it's cheating, breaking vows..... - and that's where sex all of a sudden equates love and gains so much weight in marriage! And that's where the one with higher drive starts feeling deceived, betrayed, taken advantage of, and trapped. 

Bottom line: sex is a "want" for the one who doesn't need it. And for the one who does, sex is close to the top of the priority list because it's one of the main and fundamental aspects of overall happiness and balance.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

I've said it before I'll say I again. 

Withholding sex is no less cheating than having an affair. Both are forms of cheating the marriage.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Communication and patience...The perfect recipe for a sexless marriage...Refusing partners just looooove patience...


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Vega said:


> Hmm...I think I just had a lightbulb moment, and I hope I'm not going to derail the thread, but...
> 
> I'm starting to believe that perhaps one reason WHY *a lot of women may be LD or (NO drive) is because of something like PTSD*.
> 
> ...


First, my PTSD-like emotional wounds were created by the woman I married in the context of a marriage. They were from a woman who claimed to want to be my wife for the rest of our lives. The implicit contract was not a celibacy for life with a roommate of the opposite sex. 

Your example of "molestation" could also be true, but the difference is that it occurred prior to marriage, from someone who should not be judged to be marriage material. If a woman marries such a man, she is getting what she choose as much as if they were abusive in other ways. If she finds a better type of man and marries him, she should share her molestation and damaged emotional state with him so they can work on it together or decide against marriage.

I went out with a lot of women before, I really knew what sex was. I also would not have molested a woman who said no and forced myself on her. I would wager that most men, when they were "boys," weren't focused on orgasm as much as exploring emotional connection and having fun with a "girl" that was socially acceptable to their peers. 

Finally, I would refer you to some MW Davis links. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep2MAx95m20

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michele-weinerdavis/sexstarved-wives_b_5339269.html

There are a lot of Sex Starved Wives out there, so this is not just a male HD, women LD thing. There are a lot of HD women who are are tired of being rejected and hurting emotionally as well. 



Vega said:


> ....Isn't ANYTHING in marriage done because you WANT to do it? Isn't ANYTHING done out of LOVE without attaching some "obligation" to it JUST BECAUSE WE'RE *MARRIED*?
> 
> ....Why in the world would I want to have sex with someone out of "duty"? Suddenly, it wouldn't be FUN any more!
> 
> ...When is a woman allowed to say 'no' to sex without getting a ration of S***?


A few questions for you. Why would I get up in the morning to go earn money to pay a mortage off, pay off a car loan, and put money aside for retirement of my wife and I, if work isn't fun? Obligations and duty. In life, I make vows, sign contracts, and then if honorable try to live up to them, even if I would rather go fishing on a sunny day. 

Should sex be an obligation? No. But it is called "making love" for a reason. The release of various feel-good hormones do bond and bring emotional closeness to a couple. Marriage is suppose to be about two coming together to become one physically and emotionally. 

I have worked my way out of a SSM, as has my wife. I try to provide my wife with unconditional love, without expecting something back from her. I try very hard to give, because I love her and she is my wife. Is that an obligation? Oh sorts. I have learned the hard way that covert contracts and quid-pro-quo don't work, unconditional love is best.

I am sorry you feel imposed upon by duty and obligations. 

To paraphrase the sex therapist who helped save my marriage, should she have asked the questions, "......When is a woman allowed to say 'no' to sex without getting a ration of S***?...." 
She can say no any time she wants, she just must understand that there may be long term consequences to her actions and she needs to accept those consequences as her responsibility. Our ST forced my wife to understand what the consequences would be of a continued lack of sex between us and that she would need to accept the outcome she was creating. It was a slightly different question, but similar in ways.

Obviously saying no for a week, is probably not going to derail a "healthy marriage." Saying no for two months, while recovering from an automobile accident, while in a full body cast is also probably not going to derail a "healthy marriage." However, when there is no obvious problem visible to the denied spouse and the marriage has not always been healthy, then maybe there are significant long term consequences after 2 months. So yes a woman should be able to say no to sex, but in a loving healthy relationship, if it goes on for "too long" she might want to seek professional help for whatever the physical, medical, emotional, or scheduling problem may be. "Too long" is relative to the emotional closeness of the couple and the strength of the relationship.

This debate started by your saying that a 2 month lapse in sex wasn't a big deal and if it was, it just proved that the spouse was using his wife to get laid. What I tried to explain, was that some of us have been damaged emotionally by the people we love and marry, (not some molester) and that rejection and lack of emotional closeness open old wounds that threaten the core of continued marriage.

I wish you luck and please look at the MW Davis links I provide in my earlier post.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Sorry I don't hate my wife or any of the other stuff. This isn't the first time you've said these things after I've posted. Whatever.


Take a number :rofl:


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

Vega said:


> Hmm...I think I just had a lightbulb moment, and I hope I'm not going to derail the thread, but...
> 
> I'm starting to believe that perhaps one reason WHY a lot of women may be LD or (NO drive) is because of something like PTSD.
> 
> ...


I think people who tell their daughters this are doing them a huge disservice. 

Neither me or any of my friends when I was a teen ran around sleeping with just any girl they could get. I think it is hugely over stated that all boys do this. I never slept with anyone that I didn't have feelings for. I would bet it is actually only about 30% of boys that do this.

My wife is always telling our daughters this and adds just ask your father. I always respond that some do and some don't and that my daughters need to be smart enough to figure out which group the guy falls into. So far so good.

But please, stop passing this BS on and do women a favor. I think constantly telling young girls this contributes to LD marriages. My wife believes it and can't understand the emotional bond she has broken.


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