# Newb question about desires and expectations



## Leobwin (Apr 28, 2012)

First post here.

I think I have a problem with expecting my wife to take responsibility for my happiness. I think I have this problem, and my marriage is important to me, so I'm working on it.

This may be a rather "newb" question, but ... how do I separate desires from expectations and defuse an eventual explosion when the two don't match up?

Here's what I hope is an good sample situation: I desire my wife to kiss me goodbye when I leave for work. (If this seems too lightweight, let me know and I'll toss in a beefier situation).

I desire my wife to kiss me goodbye when I leave for work. I've said this to her. Sometimes she does, sometimes she doesn't. After a month, I pick up on the pattern that there are more mornings that she doesn't.

I desire this behavior so much that it can wreck my morning if it doesn't happen, and if I understand correctly, one reason for this is that it's morphed from a desire to an expectation. Should we later discuss it, the stress on me is so great that if my wife pushes back at all, it seems that any hope of a peaceful discussion is lost. She senses my stress, digs in her heels, and then it feels like we're saying "Goodbye, forever" to my desire.

Obviously I don't know how to handle these situations. In fact I suspect that my wife could be more accomodating, but the reason I started this topic was to help me take responsiblity for my happiness....and stop blaming her.

1> Do I cowboy up and hope that she'll remember later my expressed desire?
2> Do I lovingly remind her, and cowboy up when she pushes back?
3> Do I become visibly upset, angry, petulant...and hope she'll ask, "What's wrong?" (...then refer back to #1 or #2?)

I've tried all three, and seen no success which would distinguish one from the other. Unfortunately, where my marriage is concerned, I've also learned that any of these three easily cause stress.

So, I ask with a touch of self-deprecation: How do grown-ups handle these situations?

Thank you --


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Yes, take responsibility for your own happiness. Find her and kiss her before you leave. Be a man. Or cowboy. Kiss her instead of testing her each morning to see whether she is going to live up to your expectations. Kiss her because you want to kiss her, because you love her and think she's hot.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Dude! Wtf!

Take responsibility for your own happiness. Be the man! Be the alpha male that knows exactly what you want! Her reading your mind isn't going to work! Make it happen from your own desires!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Oh yeah! I forgot to mention. Pick her up some night by her ass and then carry her to the bedroom. Then.......make some history.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

NO > Do I cowboy up and hope that she'll remember later my expressed desire?

NO > Do I lovingly remind her, and cowboy up when she pushes back?

NO > Do I become visibly upset, angry, petulant...and hope she'll ask, "What's wrong?" (...then refer back to #1 or #2?)

All three of these methods are manipulative and controlling. Instead, show that your marriage is important by ensuring that she's feeling that her needs are met. Right now, you're driving her away by being needy and demanding. 

Instead of letting her be who she is, you're trying to make her be someone you "wish" she was. You cannot see the real her when you're doing this, which means you cannot appreciate the real her. 

You need to surrender yourself to your marriage instead of expecting your marriage to go by your rules.


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## Leobwin (Apr 28, 2012)

Thank you, all. Please understand that I chose a relatively "easy" situation for my first post, and that the problems in our marriage are much deeper than who kisses whom goodbye in the morning.



enoughisenough said:


> Unless you go to her and she pushes you away - I don't think that's hard to go and get what you want?


I agree....only if all I was looking for is a quick peck on the cheek. I'm desiring a brief, private moment that allows us to demonstrate mutual love and support, giving us a small jumpstart to carry us through a day apart. Those times when I get even just five seconds are uplifting, and those times that I don't.......crushing. The purpose of this topic was to gather advice on how to deal with being crushed.




norajane said:


> Kiss her because you want to kiss her, because you love her and think she's hot.


...which is exactly what I do. I also live for those moments when she kisses me because she wants to, because she loves me and thinks I'm hot.


A somewhat related story with a dismal ending: Just this evening I came home very late from work. I tried something that made me happy - I leaned over to kiss my sleeping wife's cheek before going back to the kitchen for dinner, and I startled her awake from a bad dream. She completely freaked - shot up in bed, fully panicked. I apologized and stood lovingly, attentively close by while she took a good 10 minutes to calm down. Now, hours later, I'm battling with saying "never again" to kissing her cheek goodnight because I don't want to freak her out like that ever again. There seem to be a lot of these "never again" decisions in my life.




alphaomega said:


> Pick her up some night by her ass and then carry her to the bedroom. Then.......make some history.


My perception is that my wife has a total revulsion to dominant activity by males towards her or any other woman, and doing as you suggest would cause a BIG fight. That's not to say that your idea is not without merit ....it's just not workable where my wife is concerned. At least not by me. 




KathyBatesel said:


> All three of these methods are manipulative and controlling. Instead, show that your marriage is important by ensuring that she's feeling that her needs are met. Right now, you're driving her away by being needy and demanding.


Kathy, I appreciate your frankness. However, I cannot see how choice #1, which I'll paraphrase as, "accept it for what it is and let it be," is manipulative and controlling. Can you help me understand?




KathyBatesel said:


> Instead of letting her be who she is, you're trying to make her be someone you "wish" she was. You cannot see the real her when you're doing this, which means you cannot appreciate the real her.


Again, I'm sure I've grossly misinterpeted your advice, but ... shouldn't both sides of a relationship share their desires with the other? And is it not ok to feel a little dissapointment when a desire doesn't come to life?


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## RDL (Feb 10, 2012)

Hello,

There are 2 items that I would like to draw your attention to. 

Firstly I would suggest that you developed the habit of negatively interpreting affectionate situations. It seems that now she has a set of expectations to live up to and failure to do so detracts from the love you perceive from her. I suggest that you make an effort to switch your interpretation along the lines of you accept and love her for what she is now and what she is offering now. Enjoy the signs of affection she is offering. 

This would accomplish several important things. It would defuse the pressure you are both under, you to judge her actions and her to manifest love on command. Also you will both enjoy the affection flow a lot more once it is freely given. And you will likely see her more willing to offer affection in time. The type of affection that you desire freely given and initiated.

Secondly I would suggest that the expectations you formed and the way they affect you are influenced by a sense of insecurity that you have. Silently you base your success as a husband and a man on her actions. In order to achieve balance your sense of self worth has to have a strong inner base. In other words switch the over reliance on outside factors to determine your self worth. 

Doing this successfully will naturally raise the attraction and respect your wife feels for you thereby likely solving other issues that you may have in the relationship.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> NO > All three of these methods are manipulative and controlling. Instead, show that your marriage is important by ensuring that she's feeling that her needs are met. Right now, you're driving her away by being needy and demanding.
> 
> Instead of letting her be who she is, you're trying to make her be someone you "wish" she was. You cannot see the real her when you're doing this, which means you cannot appreciate the real her.
> 
> ...


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

If my SO creeped into the room and tried to kiss me in my sleep I'd wake up wondering why my hand hurt and he had a black eye. I don't like being startled and the first thing I'd be thinking is who broke into my house. You startled her awake and she didn't like it, respect her boundaries and get over it. 

People express love in different ways you need to find some sort of happy medium between you and her as far as expressions of love are concerned as she's obviously not on the same page as you in that department. FYI and this is JMO, if my husbands daily happiness was dependent on a kiss I would wonder what's wrong with him that he can't find happiness in himself and is dependent on a kiss for it??? I know you think it's just a small gesture and it makes your day so why not? Because she doesn't want to. That's her choice, now you choose a healthy way to deal with it. Like letting it go or kissing her goodbye every morning like others have suggested. 

Did she used to be more affectionate with you in general? Did she ever keep up with morning kisses? Is there something you're not doing in the relationship that's causing her to not want to meet your needs? Does she save all her affection for sexual activity? Or is she just not into physical touch much at all?


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## alton (Jul 18, 2012)

Simple solution is to go and kiss her yourself if/when she doesn't, then you won't feel bad and chances are you won't feel resentment towards her either. 

I'd also make light of the situation if she forgets, don't turn it into something serious. Me and the wife always kiss each other before and after work sometimes it's her, sometimes it's me. Last week she didn't in the morning because I was in the bathroom as she was leaving, so I texted her telling her I expected a BJ to compensate for it after work. Unfortunately she didn't go for it.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

The way grownups should handle this situation is directly. Either you go and kiss her or you DIRECTLY communicate your feelings about the lack of intimacy. 

Now this is TAM so if you read often enough sometimes you do these things and you find out your spouse doesn't really care to meet your needs. If that's the case other strategies are needed.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Leobwin - along the theme of being direct - this board is full of people willing to give advice on sexless marriages, affairs, pretty much everything under the sun - let's skip the peck on the cheek appetizer and tell us what's really on your mind.


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## dragonfli (Apr 10, 2012)

While I am not really in a position to give advice I do recommend this book that was suggested to me by a member here. It has our situation tremendously! It can't hurt to give it a read right?
" 5 Love Languages" by Gary Champan.
Good Luck


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

alton said:


> Simple solution is to go and kiss her yourself if/when she doesn't, then you won't feel bad and chances are you won't feel resentment towards her either.


Leobwin,

You are perfectly within your rights to ask your wife to give you a kiss. If she forgets and you feel a little disappointment, that's OK too, we all have feelings. But when we let a little disappointment wreck our morning, we have crossed a line and allowed our response to become inappropriate to the matter at hand. 

We all have expectations and desires. And we all have to deal with our expectations and desires not being met. If you know your wife is short in the affection department, your best bet is to step up yourself and show her what you are looking for. If you are a man that likes to lead, you will feel better doing this


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Leobwin said:


> Kathy, I appreciate your frankness. However, I cannot see how choice #1, which I'll paraphrase as, "accept it for what it is and let it be," is manipulative and controlling. Can you help me understand?
> 
> 
> Again, I'm sure I've grossly misinterpeted your advice, but ... shouldn't both sides of a relationship share their desires with the other? And is it not ok to feel a little dissapointment when a desire doesn't come to life?


Excellent and valid questions. 

The reason why #1 is manipulative and controlling is that it's worded in a way that reveals that you're not really accepting it. You're still expecting change later. 

As far as both sides sharing their desires with one another, I think that this is a double-edged sword for many. Obviously, on the surface, the answer is "yes, they should." Compatible couples do this pretty naturally. However, it's also possible that two people with different communication styles and/or different needs may not share them with each other, and that's not always a bad thing. Sometimes our needs and and should be met by people outside of our relationship, such as if we need child care for our toddler while both partners work. (That's a very simplified example.)

Problems can arise when our expectations or needs go unmet. In your case, you've posted a simple example that doesn't get to the heart of things, but I think that your needs are greater than she is willing or able to fulfill. Are your needs reasonable? What about your expectations? We rarely can answer those questions accurately about ourselves, so if you can ask someone who has the kind of relationship you'd like to evaluate it, you'll get a better response than trying to figure it out on your own. Alternately, you can ask your wife and give serious consideration to her viewpoint. 

If your needs or expectations are unreasonable for your current circumstances, letting them go or finding other ways to meet them is the best option.

I've found that it's usually unreasonable to expect another person to surrender their own values and priorities to adopt mine. It just doesn't work. It's better for me to shift my own closer to theirs to alleviate strain.


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## Leobwin (Apr 28, 2012)

FreedomCorp said:


> ...I would suggest that you developed the habit of negatively interpreting affectionate situations. It seems that now she has a set of expectations to live up to and failure to do so detracts from the love you perceive from her. I suggest that you make an effort to switch your interpretation along the lines of you accept and love her for what she is now and what she is offering now. Enjoy the signs of affection she is offering.
> This would accomplish several important things. It would defuse the pressure you are both under, you to judge her actions and her to manifest love on command. Also you will both enjoy the affection flow a lot more once it is freely given. And you will likely see her more willing to offer affection in time. The type of affection that you desire freely given and initiated.
> Secondly I would suggest that the expectations you formed and the way they affect you are influenced by a sense of insecurity that you have. Silently you base your success as a husband and a man on her actions. In order to achieve balance your sense of self worth has to have a strong inner base. In other words switch the over reliance on outside factors to determine your self worth.
> Doing this successfully will naturally raise the attraction and respect your wife feels for you thereby likely solving other issues that you may have in the relationship.


Thank you. I deeply appreciate your contribution, and I am reviewing it almost hourly to help your points stick. May I ask, are you by chance a professional counselor?





Toffer said:


> KathyBatesel said:
> 
> 
> > NO > All three of these methods are manipulative and controlling. Instead, show that your marriage is important by ensuring that she's feeling that her needs are met. Right now, you're driving her away by being needy and demanding. Instead of letting her be who she is, you're trying to make her be someone you "wish" she was. You cannot see the real her when you're doing this, which means you cannot appreciate the real her.
> ...


Toffer, may I ask you this: "I'm responsible for my own happiness, and at the same time, I'm to do all I can to make my spouse happy." Does that statement address your question?





MrsOldNews said:


> If my SO creeped into the room and tried to kiss me in my sleep I'd wake up wondering why my hand hurt and he had a black eye. I don't like being startled and the first thing I'd be thinking is who broke into my house. You startled her awake and she didn't like it, respect her boundaries and get over it.


Didn't my previous statement about never doing this again amount to the same thing?



MrsOldNews said:


> Did she used to be more affectionate with you in general? Did she ever keep up with morning kisses? Is there something you're not doing in the relationship that's causing her to not want to meet your needs? Does she save all her affection for sexual activity? Or is she just not into physical touch much at all?


May I address these in reverse order? Based on a conversation we had last night, my wife has no problem with physical touch when it's to her benefit, conversely, physical touch for my benefit is difficult to tolerate (but she does, and as you suggested in some unquoted text, I recognize this as an act of love ... at the same time, I feel like, WTH!?, and that's what this topic is about). She also says that physical sexual satisfaction has no bearing on her total emotional happiness.
She does not save all of her affection for sexual activity; in fact, I pick up on very little affection during sex. She doesn't lie there like a cold fish, oh, no, usually she's quite ... um ... present in the moment. But there is no kissing, no affection, no deep gazes. She will sometimes cuddle afterward, but those times that she doesn't, it's not exactly like she's fleeing the scene...more like, she's just moving on to the next thing. So to sum it up: When we have sex, there's good sex, but there's close to zero response to my affectionate cues, and she doesn't demonstrate affection herself. I'm sorry, I don't know if I'm doing a good job of relating this to you.





Mavash. said:


> The way grownups should handle this situation is directly. Either you go and kiss her or you DIRECTLY communicate your feelings about the lack of intimacy. Now this is TAM so if you read often enough sometimes you do these things and you find out your spouse doesn't really care to meet your needs. If that's the case other strategies are needed.


Mavash, that's where I'm at. My spouse does not care to meet my needs for intimacy. This topic is about trying to reconcile my desires against that reality.





alton said:


> Simple solution is to go and kiss her yourself if/when she doesn't, then you won't feel bad and chances are you won't feel resentment towards her efither. I'd also make light of the situation if she forgets, don't turn it into something serious. Me and the wife always kiss each other before and after work sometimes it's her, sometimes it's me. Last week she didn't in the morning because I was in the bathroom as she was leaving, so I texted her telling her I expected a BJ to compensate for it after work. Unfortunately she didn't go for it.


Good for you, brother! If I texted something like that to my wife, the silence would be deafening. Perhaps much later, but eventually nonetheless, I'd hear that I'd destroyed my chances by asking for the thing in such a manner.





Acorn said:


> Leobwin - along the theme of being direct - this board is full of people willing to give advice on sexless marriages, affairs, pretty much everything under the sun - let's skip the peck on the cheek appetizer and tell us what's really on your mind.


Yeah, thank you, Acorn, can't go there at this time. I'm cautious of watchful eyes.





dragonfli said:


> While I am not really in a position to give advice I do recommend this book that was suggested to me by a member here. It has our situation tremendously! It can't hurt to give it a read right? "5 Love Languages" by Gary Champan.


I've read it, and although I'm unsure of whether my wife has read it she certainly is capable of grasping the concept in short order.
My interpretation is that her primary love language is Quality Time, which can dovetail in with the other love languages. I try to do everything I can within the constraints of being the only breadwinner in our household. My self-assessment is that I can be really, really present ... and then sometimes not so present. But IMNSHO, I average out equal to or higher than many of my contemporaries.
She seems to be very sparing with her use of my language, which I interpret as Words of Affirmation (primary) and Physical Touch.





Ten_year_hubby said:


> We all have expectations and desires. And we all have to deal with our expectations and desires not being met. If you know your wife is short in the affection department, your best bet is to step up yourself and show her what you are looking for. If you are a man that likes to lead, you will feel better doing this


It's hard to lead with her. My perception is that my wife has a total revulsion to dominant activity by males, so I'm left in a state of testing the waters, where what works one moment may not work the next. I'm aware of how that might be misinterpreted in text, and surely all of us here in this topic could crack open beers and swap jokes about the mysteries of women......but my situation feels heavier than that.





KathyBatesel said:


> The reason why #1 is manipulative and controlling is that it's worded in a way that reveals that you're not really accepting it. You're still expecting change later.


Not to be augmentative, but I did use the word "hope" 



KathyBatesel said:


> Are your needs reasonable? What about your expectations? We rarely can answer those questions accurately about ourselves, so if you can ask someone who has the kind of relationship you'd like to evaluate it, you'll get a better response than trying to figure it out on your own. Alternately, you can ask your wife and give serious consideration to her viewpoint.


As you seem to suggest, our contemporaries would be the most fair comparison. However, my wife just says that unlike theirs, ours is a marriage based on convenience, on parenting, and therefore the comparison isn't valid. Even if I did see our marriage that way, it's time for it to evolve, and I can't think of better role models than the outwardly happily-married couples around us.



KathyBatesel said:


> I've found that it's usually unreasonable to expect another person to surrender their own values and priorities to adopt mine. It just doesn't work. It's better for me to shift my own closer to theirs to alleviate strain.


I understand. So why is it that when I ask my wife to tell me something that she does (or doesn't) like about my behavior, that I'm a big boy who can make his own decisions and therefore she shouldn't worry that she'll be forcing her will upon me, I get back silence...or "everything's OK the way it is," even though it's clearly not?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> As you seem to suggest, our contemporaries would be the most fair comparison. However, *my wife just says that unlike theirs, ours is a marriage based on convenience,* on parenting, and therefore the comparison isn't valid. Even if I did see our marriage that way, it's time for it to evolve, and I can't think of better role models than the outwardly happily-married couples around us.


This is at the root of your issues. Why does your wife believe your marriage is based on convenience?

If she doesn't love you and was never in love with you, the affection you are seeking is absolutely not going to be there. She didn't marry you for love; she married you for convenience. That takes a lot of things off the table, other than civility and commitment to whatever "convenience" your marriage is about.

For your marriage of convenience to evolve into a marriage of love, affection, and fulfillment, BOTH of you have to be feeling a bond of love and it seems your wife does not feel that kind of bond with you.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Leobwin - I could have written your exact statement. Was getting few kisses, hugs . . . affection. My W blew it off. She is defensive, so getting through takes a while, but over a long period I got her to see that I need to feel her desire for me (not just sexual desire, but desire to be with me) to appreciate that she loves me. That, without that, it feels like I am her worker and unloved. 

She sensed I was unhappy, and tried going through the steps, but was not really expressing affection, just going through the steps. Very recently, she changed. After a big fight, it somehow clicked. 

The point is that she has to understand how being ineffectionate hurts you and is unfair.

Oh, and that marriage for convenience thing is about the worst thing someone can say (truly disgusting). She's saying she does not love you. If she means that and you are not willing to divorce, you need to (1) do the 180 (look it up), and (2) make it less convenient for her. 

Make a budget for both of you, a schedule of your responsibilities and stick to it. Put aside savings for the future. Split things evenly and make a post-nuptual agreement with a lawyer. You share things as a couple because you are 1, not 2 people acting as 1 because it is convenient.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

Leobwin, your wife's comment about your marriage being one of convenience is quite telling to me. That is a statement revealing that she has "checked out" of your marriage and is just not that into you anymore. Thats a HUGE concern.

You said you are the sole breadwinner right? So she's home all day long while you work? Are you sure there's not another man in her life while you're working?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Leobwin said:


> So, I ask with a touch of self-deprecation: How do grown-ups handle these situations?
> 
> Thank you --


I did not answer this question directly. I lived with a lot of pain for a long time. I tried to understand what I was feeling and why so I could best communicate it. I communicated it over and over, until she got it.


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## Leobwin (Apr 28, 2012)

norajane said:


> This is at the root of your issues. Why does your wife believe your marriage is based on convenience?


It's probably my fault. Early on I perceived that I wasn't good enough for her, that I was just a silly kid playing grown-up games, and I often downplayed the importance of our relationship with the goal of not causing her to judge me harshly, and the goal of not overly influencing her decisions. I would say things like, "Let's get married so we're sure we have insurance for our coming child," when I should've been saying, "I love you deeply, and it's time to commit to each other give our family a proper beginning."

Even though I was downplaying, in truth things couldn't be more the opposite: This was the one girl for me, the girl with whom I'd spend the rest of my life. Slowly she took up the drumbeat, and today it's morphed into what it is.

Recently I'm backpedaling hard, but caution is required - our entire relationship has been under a certain degree of false pretense, and I don't want to spook her. It's been a lesson in honesty for me.

The only positive spin I can find is that I'm 100% certain that any commitment she's entered into, she's done of her own free will without undue influence from me.





SprucHub said:


> The point is that she has to understand how being ineffectionate hurts you and is unfair.


I've been working on that for more than two decades, and my efforts of late are tenfold. Unfortunately, I've also been sabotaging my efforts somewhat (see the above paragraph), as in, how can it hurt me if the relationship is just not that important?



SprucHub said:


> Oh, and that marriage for convenience thing is about the worst thing someone can say (truly disgusting). She's saying she does not love you. If she means that and you are not willing to divorce, you need to (1) do the 180 (look it up), and (2) make it less convenient for her.


I've tried the 180 several times in the last decade. She appears unaffected, herself a terrific example of the mantra "no one else is responsible for making you happy" in practice 

I'm also not one to turn my back on anyone. The strain of running a 180 was always exhausting to me and I'm sure I looked like a dweeb doing it.



SprucHub said:


> I tried to understand what I was feeling and why so I could best communicate it. I communicated it over and over, until she got it.


I understand, brother. This is probably the direction in which I'm headed. I hope I have even a smidgen of your patience.





Bottled Up said:


> You said you are the sole breadwinner right? So she's home all day long while you work? Are you sure there's not another man in her life while you're working?


This has been a problem in the past. Can't go into it right now, the walls have ears.

Today, I'm not 100% certain, but I asked her recently if there was someone else in the middle of our relationship. She answered, "Right now you have more to fear from yourself." That's typical of the types of her style of communication -- always "concrete" and "not concrete" at the same time, depending on the mindset of the recipient (aka me).

Lord, what I wouldn't give for a simple, straight answer every once in a while.


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## edenbisdee7215 (Jun 23, 2012)

well desires are unstoppable while expectations can be controlled. Try ignoring little issues in life and always try to be relaxed and happy, then see the results how changes take place.

compare home insurance | cheap life insurance | cheap health insurance


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Leo,
You have a good sense of humor. That matters. Why don't you kiss HER before you leave?




Leobwin said:


> First post here.
> 
> I think I have a problem with expecting my wife to take responsibility for my happiness. I think I have this problem, and my marriage is important to me, so I'm working on it.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Leo,
Please understand this as best you can as it may shed some light for you:

Gender behavioral profiles and sexual orientation are not correlated. In our marriage:
- My W has this super cool set of female - cute behaviors. Super cute. Irresistable to me. Like - she does something annoying - I look at her and tilt my head "Really?" I say. 

Her response: But do you love me? With a killer smile. 

- My W is also more male than I am in some ways. 
She won't ask for directions
I will without hesitation

She has a higher risk tolerance than I do. And she is by nature "lower affect". And I am by nature not low affect. 

So in some odd ways our gender profiles are reversed despite her being fully hetero and me being that way as well. 

The thing is Leo - I can turn on a low affect mode and leave it for a while.





Leobwin said:


> It's probably my fault. Early on I perceived that I wasn't good enough for her, that I was just a silly kid playing grown-up games, and I often downplayed the importance of our relationship with the goal of not causing her to judge me harshly, and the goal of not overly influencing her decisions. I would say things like, "Let's get married so we're sure we have insurance for our coming child," when I should've been saying, "I love you deeply, and it's time to commit to each other give our family a proper beginning."
> 
> Even though I was downplaying, in truth things couldn't be more the opposite: This was the one girl for me, the girl with whom I'd spend the rest of my life. Slowly she took up the drumbeat, and today it's morphed into what it is.
> 
> ...


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I'm very sorry, but it sounds like she doesn't love you. Saying you have a marriage of convenience is a very simple, straight way of telling you that. 

So you want her to kiss you in a very loving, romantic way every time you leave for work. You want her to love you. But she doesn't. And insisting she kiss you as though she does every day is pointless. 

I find your writing style a little convoluted and difficult to understand. I may have missed these points, but how old are you and your wife? How long have you been married? Has she always behaved this way, ie as though she is not in love with you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RDL (Feb 10, 2012)

> Thank you. I deeply appreciate your contribution, and I am reviewing it almost hourly to help your points stick. May I ask, are you by chance a professional counselor?


Yes I run a counselling business. Link in the signature.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Leobwin said:


> *It's probably my fault. Early on I perceived that I wasn't good enough for her, that I was just a silly kid playing grown-up games, and I often downplayed the importance of our relationship with the goal of not causing her to judge me harshly, and the goal of not overly influencing her decisions. I would say things like, "Let's get married so we're sure we have insurance for our coming child," when I should've been saying, "I love you deeply, and it's time to commit to each other give our family a proper beginning."*
> 
> Even though I was downplaying, in truth things couldn't be more the opposite: This was the one girl for me, the girl with whom I'd spend the rest of my life. Slowly she took up the drumbeat, and today it's morphed into what it is.
> 
> ...


I think it might be helpful for you and your wife to go to marriage counseling. MC's can help you learn to communicate, and to open up to each other. It's time you two had some very open and honest discussions about how your marriage came to be, what it has been since then, and what kind of marriage you and your wife would like to strive for. 

Your marriage was not based on honesty - your honesty. She may very well have married you so that your child (unborn at that time, but on the way) would have a father, and you weren't showing her that you loved her so she assumed that's all your marriage would be - one of convenience so you could parent.

You need to come clean with her and see what that means to her. There is not going to be an instant improvement here. Years of false pretenses will make her feel like she doesn't even know who you are or what her life has been about. It's going to take time to undo and redo what has been done and established.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Leobwin said:


> I've tried the 180 several times in the last decade. She appears unaffected, herself a terrific example of the mantra "no one else is responsible for making you happy" in practice


I got this exact statement in response to my discussions. "I am not responsible for making you happy." I did not retort "No, but you are responsible for making me unhappy." But it was what I was thinking. 

I could not do the 180 either, never tried. Is your W playing a game, or does she just lack the empathy to see she is hurting you?

Although I could not do a 180, I could become firmer and more resolute. If I want the answer to a question, I can be firm. Ask her again whether there was someone else, and do not take a bs answer. Respond to a wishy washy answer: "That is not what I asked."

Also, work on the marriage for convenience answer. See if she really means that. You are unhappy and working and I assume doing a lot around the house. That is not "convenient" for you. Maybe tell her that. That it is not a marriage of convenience for you, that it is love not convenience that keeps you around. Tell her you are drowning and that her pithy answers and witticisms are not helping.

I guess what you really need to do is firm up your resolve to understand what you are feeling and how she feels. Don't let her be defensive or pithy. Be direct. Be patient and calm. If she gets worked up, let it go. If she says something untrue or mean, say "that is not true" or "that is not necessary" calmly. When she says "we've had this conversation before" say "no, we have never finished it."


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## Leobwin (Apr 28, 2012)

Lyris said:


> I may have missed these points, but how old are you and your wife? How long have you been married? Has she always behaved this way, ie as though she is not in love with you?


We're in our mid-40s; together 25 years; married 13 years; two kids in elementary school, one in middle school and one has left the nest.

With me at least, she's never been a warm person, or cared very much about my emotional needs. Or if she ever was, it was so long ago that I can't recall it.






norajane said:


> I think it might be helpful for you and your wife to go to marriage counseling. MC's can help you learn to communicate, and to open up to each other. It's time you two had some very open and honest discussions about how your marriage came to be, what it has been since then, and what kind of marriage you and your wife would like to strive for.


The first moved out of state, the second was not good, the third was our pastor, and we're still seeing the fourth (and the pastor). It's hard to focus forward when there are so many unresolved issues in the past.






SprucHub said:


> Is your W playing a game, or does she just lack the empathy to see she is hurting you? ...I guess what you really need to do is firm up your resolve to understand what you are feeling and how she feels. Don't let her be defensive or pithy. Be direct. Be patient and calm. If she gets worked up, let it go. If she says something untrue or mean, say "that is not true" or "that is not necessary" calmly. When she says "we've had this conversation before" say "no, we have never finished it."


My impression is that she thinks relationships shouldn't take any work. They should just *be.* When I want to talk about my feelings, I'm "whining," and she's said as much.


I've been trying conversational techniques such as you described for a while. But the problem is, where you and I might talk and the conversation would flow back and forth, when she and I talk she spends much of the time in silence. When asked, she says she's processing what I've just said, or she's waiting to be sure I'm done speaking. What it really feels like is she's controlling the conversation with her silence.


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