# Doing it pro se



## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

So I am finally beginning to grasp that I chose to love and reproduce with someone who is broken, selfish, entitled, and mentally ill. Still trying to figure out what that says about me...

On to my question. The ex-wife has some of my personal property in her possession due to the jumbled move out (I am an idiot) that she is refusing to give me back. There are four main categories of items 1. an expensive electronic device that was a gift from my father 2. important papers that are specifically spelled out in the divorce decree as her obligation to return 3. a "valueless" item that has significant nostalgia as it was a gift from my deceased grandmother and 4. a few pieces of random stuff I could totally live without.

My attorney has offered me a sweet deal to settle my bill which I plan to do with a signature loan in the next couple days.

I know legal action will eventually be required to enforce the agreed upon details of the divorce decree and parenting plan. I also think that for the foreseeable future, she is going to try to fight for fight's sake. She feels like she got screwed, but the settlement was extremely fair to her. 

I am smart, capable, and frugal. Since the big items like child support and parenting time are settled, I am thinking about going the pro se route to try to keep her from taking advantage of me/hold her feet to the fire. Part of me feels representing myself is an eventuality in the next decade because I know I will end up court again unless I stop being my own person. (I will no longer be her drone!) 

This issue seems like as good as place as any to start learning the ropes, and I will never get back on my feet financially if I have to have an attorney on retainer for the next ten years. 

I would love to hear your experience representing yourself, fighting an ex who represented themselves, or your perspective of your friends who have gone through this on either side. 

Thanks


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Relative did it pro se and it was perfect. I wish I did mine that way.


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## Bluebirdie (Apr 26, 2014)

I get your feeling as for the items she has and doesnt want to give you back. Do you think she will give them back to you if you stop asking for a while? 

We bought a weekend house with h when kids left, I decorated with all my heart with a lot of feelings. My dad who had left my mom and us 3 kids for 23 years and came back to our life made ALL the wood furniture (he is an artisan). I even have a wall dedicated to him and the workers with pictures and a "Because every picture has a story to tell". I love all the stuff there because it remembers me of my childhood, my parents and nice experiences.

With the d settlement he is keeping that house... I felt devastated at first since I keep our original house and is furnished, cant go and take what really mean a lot to me and "exchange". The other house is smaller and is no sense really, different concepts... have come to the point of leaving behind and not try to leave him with an almost empty house he will not appreciate, less another woman who comes and enjoys it as I did. But... that is life sometimes and material things too. 

Try not to fight for the things that she knows matter to you a lot, hopefully after a while she will give them to you. Or... I don't know her... do you think she can burn, sell or do something bad with them just to get you angry?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think pro se is a good idea if both parties are willing to be amicable and reasonable. But if that's not the case, I think it can be an absolute train wreck. If your ex-wife is playing hardball, refusing to comply with court orders, and has her own attorney, I would be hesitant to dismiss counsel in favor of doing it pro se. You don't have to keep an attorney on retainer for the next 10 years, but it might be a good idea to keep his number around in case you need to hire him again in future at his regular rate to deal with lingering issues.


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

Bluebirdie said:


> I get your feeling as for the items she has and doesnt want to give you back. Do you think she will give them back to you if you stop asking for a while?
> 
> We bought a weekend house with h when kids left, I decorated with all my heart with a lot of feelings. My dad who had left my mom and us 3 kids for 23 years and came back to our life made ALL the wood furniture (he is an artisan). I even have a wall dedicated to him and the workers with pictures and a "Because every picture has a story to tell". I love all the stuff there because it remembers me of my childhood, my parents and nice experiences.
> 
> ...


So for a detail, the nostalgic item is a blanket my grandmother gave me. At this point, I figure my ex is so messed up she would love nothing more than to f#ck a couple random on guys on the blanket and give it back soiled. I am not going to give her any ideas though. so yeah, I could seeing her burning, destroying, defiling...


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## Bluebirdie (Apr 26, 2014)

Hope that's all she does, cause then you can wash/dry the blanket  ... but hopefully not destroy. 

My wish is that you can negociate with her with little things not showing her a lot of interest and little by little you get your important nostalgic belongings back.


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

Rowan said:


> I think pro se is a good idea if both parties are willing to be amicable and reasonable. But if that's not the case, I think it can be an absolute train wreck. If your ex-wife is playing hardball, refusing to comply with court orders, and has her own attorney, I would be hesitant to dismiss counsel in favor of doing it pro se. You don't have to keep an attorney on retainer for the next 10 years, but it might be a good idea to keep his number around in case you need to hire him again in future at his regular rate to deal with lingering issues.


Amicable and reasonable...not sure anyone who has known the ex for more than a few years would describe her this way.

So the strategic point I am trying to make: I think pro se would actually work better if she had an attorney. I don't think I am over hyping my abilities, but I am thinking pro se could really her hurt where it matters, the bank. I think I could be a huge pain in the @ss to her and her attorney. 

Part of how I ended up with slightly expanded parenting time over the "norm" for my area (still not 50% however) was to give her good offer after good offer, while patiently waiting for her over priced attorney to deplete her. I, in turn, kept my budget attorney on a short leash.

I am over being passive. I am not sure I have any more cheeks to turn. But I want to approach this strategy prudently, if it ends being what I choose to do.


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

Bluebirdie said:


> Hope that's all she does, cause then you can wash/dry the blanket  ... but hopefully not destroy.
> 
> My wish is that you can negociate with her with little things not showing her a lot of interest and little by little you get your important nostalgic belongings back.


I can understand that, it was always my wish too. You kno...let's be adults and stuff. But I spent 2 years negotiating. OVER IT. She isn't capable of thinking in a rational manner. I have several years of observation to back this up.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You could try something much simpler first. Ask for the police to go with you to get your things. You have a court document saying that they are yours
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> You could try something much simpler first. Ask for the police to go with you to get your things. You have a court document saying that they are yours
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Interesting thought...

The only thing spelled out in the court order is my documents, but I will look more into this. 
Thanks


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## poppyseed (Dec 22, 2013)

It's a difficult one unless you have a court order for certain items which you say you have.

It's difficult to prove to the police that you owned the item. Your word against hers. It's a civil matter not a criminal matter. I've known someone who took all the furniture and furnishing etc etc when her boyfriend cheated on her. He lost everything.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

It does not have to be a criminal matter for the police to be there. I and others I know have done this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## poppyseed (Dec 22, 2013)

Interesting question, would the police deal with possessions which aren't clear if one person owns it. A bag of clothing, perhaps. Would be useful to see any legal guidelines if available.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

I was lucky in my divorce. The day after DD my x gave me a list, thru her attorney, of what she wanted. It was about a 10th of what she could of received. I happily transfer it to her.
In your case I like the idea of pro se, because I would sure give it a try, especially since she would be paying to argue. What I would suggest is that if you go this route, prepare yourself that all the items may be lost, never received. And realize that it would be because she is a witch and nothing you failed to do. Don't want you beating yourself up about it in the future if it does not work out.
My 2 cents.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Police will likely decline to go with you to get personal property unless their is a threat of domestic violence, but it never hurts to ask. The worst that will happen is they say no. Depending on your jurisdictions, it would seem your most likely procedural remedies are
Motion to Enforce
Motion for Contempt
Order of Conversion
Forms are available all over the internet. Most clerk of courts will help you work out the logistics of service of process, and it might not hurt to ask your attorney to merely review the papers you prepare before you file and seek service.
Then you need to ask yourself, how vindictive will she become when she receives legal documents ?


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> Police will likely decline to go with you to get personal property unless their is a threat of domestic violence, but it never hurts to ask. The worst that will happen is they say no. Depending on your jurisdictions, it would seem your most likely procedural remedies are
> Motion to Enforce
> Motion for Contempt
> Order of Conversion
> ...


Thanks for the reply. I have largely insulated myself from how vindictive she can try to be to me. The only leverage she has at this point are these items. However, I do have children with this broken person...


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Yes, you could go pro-se on this. Do you have any photos of the items? Or does your family (of the blanket)? Just wondering if there is a way to prove it is that particular blanket. A photo plus a signed, notarized affidavit from your mother? Can you get her to admit she has them via the telephone during an argument? You can record this and then use it in court along wtih the photos of the items. The electronic device - you could look for another one online to show what model/kind it is.

Could you offer a trade? Buy a new bedspread for the quilt? Buy a digital camera for her in exchange for the electronic device?

Lastly and most underhanded - do you have a mutual friend that she trusts? Someone who could visit and get these items for you and surreptitiously toss them out a side window she won't see, or take to her car while your ex is in the bathroom? Would she miss these items immediately - i.e. is the blanket in a closet or at the foot of the bed? If she couldn't determine when they were removed that might be a safe and easy way to get your things back (not the paperwork, of course).


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## poppyseed (Dec 22, 2013)

wtf2012 said:


> Thanks for the reply. I have largely insulated myself from how vindictive she can try to be to me. The only leverage she has at this point are these items. However, I do have children with this broken person...


Someone who has a personality disorder. What goes around comes around. Stay well and strong.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> Depending on your jurisdictions, it would seem your most likely procedural remedies are
> Motion to Enforce
> Motion for Contempt
> Order of Conversion
> Forms are available all over the internet. Most clerk of courts will help you work out the logistics of service of process, and it might not hurt to ask your attorney to merely review the papers you prepare before you file and seek service.


Good option there. If you do go pro se, you can always hire an attorney for document review beforehand. 

It is helpful.


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## poppyseed (Dec 22, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> Police will likely decline to go with you to get personal property unless their is a threat of domestic violence, but it never hurts to ask. The worst that will happen is they say no.
> Then you need to ask yourself, how vindictive will she become when she receives legal documents ?


My solicitor says something similar if it helps. He tells me this sort of squabble is so common with two people fight over asset divisions over a number of years.


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## one_strange_otter (Aug 26, 2008)

We tried pro se, or I did I should say. Just couldn't figure out how to write a few things in. She found a lawyer that would write up a decree, represent her in court on the UNCONTESTED docket. $1500 bucks. 3 easy payments of 500. The lawyer doubles as an entry level mediator...tells you up front as long as everyone is civil and agreeable it's fine but the first time you start yelling you're both out and can come back with something from the medation center in the next town over and she'll still write it up.

Our only argument is the support stuff since it's a fifty/fifty split on time.


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