# To spank or not to spank, that is the question?



## bellawhite

I'm not looking for what the text book tells us, but I want a more personal opinion? Do you spank? And in the long run, how did your kids turn out? Did you not spank? Are your teenagers good kids? By the way I'm a christian mom, so I do agree with the word of God but I'd like to hear ppls thoughts on this..
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## *LittleDeer*

I spanked my first. Not often but I did. There is a 13 yr age gap. 

I've never spanked my son, who is Almost 7. Everyone tells me he's the best behaved most loving caring little boy. 

I think it requires more effort to not spank, but has more benefits. And I don't want my children thinking violence is acceptable. 

Also people say they don't spank in anger, but I've never not seen someone lose their patience and spank in a calm rational way. Even if it wasn't hard, it's still teaching your child that putting their ands on someone else is OK! 

It doesn't mean there is no discipline, it just means we try to talk a lot more and have the children be empathetic and think of others. Rather then obey me or else.


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## hambone

bellawhite said:


> I'm not looking for what the text book tells us, but I want a more personal opinion? Do you spank? And in the long run, how did your kids turn out? Did you not spank? Are your teenagers good kids? By the way I'm a christian mom, so I do agree with the word of God but I'd like to hear ppls thoughts on this..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My children have never been spanked. 

Spanking is a lazy parent's shortcut to parenting. It's a big person beating up on a little person and in the long run... just leads to power struggles and resentment.

There is mutual respect between me and my wife and the kids.

I try to talk and reason with my kids to get them to do what is in their best interest. We have a son and a daughter. When the son nutts up... my wife can talk him into going along. And, when the daughter nutts up... I can talk her into cooperating. 

IMO, the key to raising good, well balanced kids, is to let them suffer the consequences of their choices. Both good and bad. If they have a library book that's late... they pay the fine. NEVER pay the fine for them and then fuss at them all the way home about how this better not happen again. Yes means yes and no means no. I tell me son he has to mow the yard before he goes to the ball game. He doesn't get it mowed, he doesn't go. I don't care if it rained today. He should have mowed it yesterday. One missed opportunity like that and they remember. I want my kids to KNOW that I am on their side. Whipping them doesn't create that.

Look at it this way... when you have a disagreement with an adult... do you try to whip them? Then why whip your kids? Just because you're bigger and can?

My kids are absolute joys. Both are in the honor society.. never once been in trouble with the law (well... one speeding ticket). Never been called to the school. Teachers tell me all the time how great my kids are. They aren't super kids but they are good kids who everybody likes.


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## EleGirl

Spanking is not about beating up on a child. It's not 'whipping'. 

It should be used as a last resort, when nothing else works. Spanking does not leave a mark.

If a child is old enough to mow the lawn, they are way to old for spanking to work.

I spanked my son a very few times.

Let a child suffer the consequences of his actions? Well, there are some consequences I'm just not willing to allow my child to experience. For example when he was 2 he thought it was funny to break away from me when I was putting him in the car and run out on to the street. I guess it was funny because it made his mommy very upset. You see people drove down our street like maniacs. 

So I swatted him on the behind. It was not a beating or a whipping. It was a spank. It was also the last time he did that.

It's amazing that humans survived thousands of years of being raised by parents who spanked them. How did this happen without todays PC way of raising kids?


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## Maricha75

hambone said:


> Spanking is a lazy parent's shortcut to parenting. It's a big person beating up on a little person and in the long run... just leads to power struggles and resentment.


That's a load of nonsense. I have, on occasion, spanked all of my children. It isn't the first thing I do. It is last resort. And my children's teachers have ALL said that my kids are a joy, sweetest dispositions, etc. They are not afraid of us. It isn't beating up on a little person. And frankly, I find your definition insulting. It's positions like this which have led to parents being afraid to reprimand (and I mean verbal) their children for fear of being reported for abuse. The kids know this stuff and hold it over their parents. It isn't the ones who get rare spankings/give the rare spankings that are the problem. It is those who refuse to do anything to discipline their kids at all, because they are afraid of losing their kids.... or those who think their kids can do no wrong and are little angels, as they are taking a fistful of a birthday cake, before the candles are even put on it.


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## hambone

EleGirl said:


> Spanking is not about beating up on a child. It's not 'whipping'.
> 
> It should be used as a last resort, when nothing else works. Spanking does not leave a mark.
> 
> If a child is old enough to mow the lawn, they are way to old for spanking to work.
> 
> I spanked my son a very few times.
> 
> Let a child suffer the consequences of his actions? Well, there are some consequences I'm just not willing to allow my child to experience. For example when he was 2 he thought it was funny to break away from me when I was putting him in the car and run out on to the street. I guess it was funny because it made him mommy very upset. You see people drove down our street like maniacs.
> 
> So I swatted him on the behind. It was not a beating or a whipping. It was a spank. It was also the last time he did that.
> 
> It's amazing that humans survived thousands of years of being raised by parents who spanked them. How did this happen without todays PC way of raising kids?


I have never touched my child in anger or out of frustration.

When I say suffer the consequences of their behavior.. Let me be more specific. NATURAL consequences of their behavior. They don't turn in that book on time... they pay the fine. Being spanked for not turning in that book on time is not a natural consequences.

I've never yelled at my kids... except to get their attention. 

And, when I warn them of the potential negative consequnces of a choice they make.. and it happens. I don't rub it in. they know they screwed up.

And the big benefit of doing it my way? When I warn them something bad might happen... and it happens! You'll be suprised at how much their hearing improves.

A classic case. My son was about 3. I was working with a power drill. I changed drill bits. He went to touch it. I warned him it was hot and would burn his finger. I warned him several times. He went ahead and touched it. And, it burned his finger. My response. Went in side and got him a cup of cold water to make his finger fell better. Allowing kids to suffer the consequences of their choices makes a believer out of them. Of course, sooner or later, they have to have a reminder lesson. My children KNOW when I tell them something, I am doing it because I love them and want the best for them..

My kids are 17 and 21 and they have never gone through that rebellious stage. They've never gone over fools hill where they stop listening to anything their parents tell them.

Also, doing it my way allows them to build great judgment. 

I have thoroughly enjoyed every minute of raising my kids. 

One final thing. I retired when my youngest was in the 2nd grade. My wife has always been a SAHM...


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## hambone

*LittleDeer* said:


> I spanked my first. Not often but I did. There is a 13 yr age gap.
> 
> I've never spanked my son, who is Almost 7. Everyone tells me he's the best behaved most loving caring little boy.
> 
> I think it requires more effort to not spank, but has more benefits. And I don't want my children thinking violence is acceptable.
> 
> Also people say they don't spank in anger, but I've never not seen someone lose their patience and spank in a calm rational way. Even if it wasn't hard, it's still teaching your child that putting their ands on someone else is OK!
> 
> It doesn't mean there is no discipline, it just means we try to talk a lot more and have the children be empathetic and think of others. Rather then obey me or else.


See, you get it. It does take longer... that's why I call spanking the lazy parents way. Spanking puts you into a power struggle situation. It takes the issue out of the "do this because it's in your best interest" and throws it into the "YOU are going to mind me one way or the other". The issue is no longer the issue. Who is in control is the issue and that breeds resentment and disobedience.


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## EleGirl

hambone said:


> ....
> A classic case. My son was about 3. I was working with a power drill. I changed drill bits. He went to touch it. I warned him it was hot and would burn his finger. I warned him several times. He went ahead and touched it. And, it burned his finger. My response. Went in side and got him a cup of cold water to make his finger fell better. Allowing kids to suffer the consequences of their choices makes a believer out of them. Of course, sooner or later, they have to have a reminder lesson. My children KNOW when I tell them something, I am doing it because I love them and want the best for them..


Well touching a hot drill bit is a lot different than letting a young child be hit by a speeding car to learn that it can happen and it hurts.

It's nice that you have perfect children. Good for you.

Some children are a bit more challenging. Each child is different.


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## EleGirl

coffee4me said:


> I was going to spank my son once. He was 6 it was one of those things where you tell him to wait and then he was to get a spanking (after I calmed down, I was angry) . When I went in the room my 3 year old came running around me. She scrambled up the bed and dove on top of him. Her little body covering his and said "mommy don't. He won't do it again I promise." No way I could do it after that.
> 
> I'm not sure if it would have come to that again, the kids were pretty reasonable growing up fairly good temperments and listened well. But I think I was lucky, I know some parents have a harder time. Don't think it's my parenting I think its the child's temperment and I really feel for the parents that have a harder time. I know I just got lucky, no tantrums etc.


No tantrums? Gads you were lucky!!!!


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## EleGirl

hambone said:


> See, you get it. It does take longer... that's why I call spanking the lazy parents way. Spanking puts you into a power struggle situation. It takes the issue out of the "do this because it's in your best interest" and throws it into the "YOU are going to mind me one way or the other". The issue is no longer the issue. Who is in control is the issue and that breeds resentment and disobedience.


You are talking about the dynamics that go on between a child who is abused (beaten/whipped) and his/her abusive parents.

I really don't think you understand what spanking is. I think I used spanking 2-3 times when my son was under 10. One was the running into traffic incident. After all I was not about to allow him to suffer the natural consequences of being hit by a car. There are limits to that. And reasoning with a 2 year old just was not working. They don’t reason very well at that age. But one spank to his behind did the trick.


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## Anon Pink

I prefer the Vulcan death grip myself. Employed with teeth firmly clamped together, one eye brow raised with both eyes wife open, scare the hell outta the kids! they have, now that they're grown up, laughed and wished I spanked instead of the Vulcan death grip.

There are such better ways to teach behavior, to modify behavior, to instill a set of brakes to an otherwise spinning out of control child.


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## Bellavista

We have 5 children, now all aged 16-24. When they were first starting to touch, if they touched something they shouldn't, they would get a little smack on the hand and I would say, 'don't touch'. This was not a hard belt, just enough that they learnt not to touch when they were told not to.

Between the ages of 3-7 the boys would get smacks for willful misbehaviour, not for making a mistake, but for doing something they knew was wrong, ie, throwing a ball inside, breaking something they were not supposed to touch, drawing on the wall, etc. Now I did not go around walloping them everyday, I think because I started being firm when they were young, it translated to not over the top misbehaviour.

For tantrums, my youngest was the worst, I found the best way was to ignore her. Both in public and at home, we would all walk away. If they asked for something and I had said no, I would ask them what I had said. They would say 'no', to which I would respond, 'right then, so you did hear me' and there was no further discussion. For good behaviour there were verbal rewards, my youngest loved to help and get a pat on the head when she was a toddler.

By the time they were over 7 the spankings ceased and we started with removing privileges and rewarding with extra privileges or sometimes something they really wanted. If they misbehaved, I would count to 3, holding up one finger at a time. They knew without a doubt, that if I got to 3, there was a consequence, so they would stop. I had them to the point I could gain their attention across a room, ie, at church, hold up 1 finger and they would stop mucking around.

They weren't perfect kids, but they weren't raging monsters either. Now they are all older, I have not had to discipline for years, probably since they were about 10 or so. They are not violent, they have never hit others and they are all functioning members of society.

They have respect for their father and I, as well as others in society.

I don't like it being thrown around that ALL smacking is child abuse. The main thing to remember, is not all kids are the same and what works for one, will not work for another. Our 2nd son usually just needed a frown to stop him as a toddler, the 3rd was tougher and needed smacking. The girls did not need as much smacking as the boys. Find what works for you with each child and stick to that.


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## bellawhite

Thanks great advice! My oldest, 5 yrs old is veryyyyyyy stubborn and sometimes it drives me crazy and i dont know what to do with
Him and feel thay spanking him is what works best, does anyone here have an extremely hard headed child and were you able to break that from him?
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## Maricha75

bellawhite said:


> Thanks great advice! My oldest, 5 yrs old is veryyyyyyy stubborn and sometimes it drives me crazy and i dont know what to do with
> Him and feel thay spanking him is what works best, does anyone here have an extremely hard headed child and were you able to break that from him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mine are fairly mild tempered. Hence the reason spanking is VERY rare for me, at least. But my niece, who is 5, is very hard headed. You can tell her "don't kick the seat"... tell here a dozen times that it hurts the person sitting in front of her and each time, she will WHINE "whyyyyyyyyy?" How do you handle that? Let her continue kicking the seat and hurt the child sitting in front of her? Time outs don't work for her. AT. ALL. What kind of punishment do you give a child who behaves that way? Taking away privileges doesn't work with her. Taking away her toys doesn't work. She continues to bully other kids... So, how do you discipline a child like that? I have no idea. Tbh, I'm glad I can send her home to her mother....


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## I got this

One size fits all is nonsense. You cant take anecdotal evidence of experience with two children and assume it works the same for the other several billion. I was spanked and Im not violent nor do I put my hands on others so get a grip.

My wife was spanked and she is one of the most delightful, kind hearted, warmest people on the planet earth. She is about as far from violent as one can get. 

Indians think dancing around a fire making silly noises makes it rain but thats all bullzhit too.


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## Bellavista

bellawhite said:


> Thanks great advice! My oldest, 5 yrs old is veryyyyyyy stubborn and sometimes it drives me crazy and i dont know what to do with
> Him and feel thay spanking him is what works best, does anyone here have an extremely hard headed child and were you able to break that from him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My youngest son, now 21, was as stubborn as a mule. He used to stir the other kids mercilessly, and nothing seemed to stop him. He would muck around in school, like falling off his chair or poking the kid next to him. However, I would not say he was willfully naughty, he did not break things deliberately, or hit the other kids, he just clowned around and wanted to be the centre of attention.

He grew out of the worst of it around 12, and is now a great young man, who has represented Australia in karate and has his own design business.

We think he mucked around because he was bored, he is very bright and energetic. School was no challenge for him. Starting karate, getting him into art lessons and starting high school all made a difference.


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## MandyPoo

I was "spanked" as a child. I recall, vividly, that spanking never influenced me to "behave." I always thought, "mom/dad is mad, so here comes the belt or hand or whatever was the weapon of choice." I ALWAYS believed my parents struck me me because they were angry. I NEVER correlated having my bottom smacked with a belt with poor behavior marks or having my face slapped with a sharp tongue. Spanking did, however, influence me to strike my siblings and/or peers when I was angry with them. At the time, I correlated striking people with exasperation. However, I have always been a thinker and analyzer. I later realized striking was due to a lack of restraint and effective communication. Shouting and striking, to me, was the same as a temper tantrum. I still have the letter I wrote to my parents, back in first grade, about how wrong they were for hitting me. How they needed to learn to "use your words" like we did at school. (I must have stuffed into the pouch of my childhood teddy bear at some point after they read it. I still have the bear). Of course, my parents' response to the letter was to "spank" me. Figures...

By junior high, I despised my parents for their behavior and the behaviors they had instilled in me. I thought the were idiots who were unable to communicate effectively or control their tempers. I grew spiteful and angry and had zero respect for my parents. I moved across country and started college, at 16 years old, less than a week after high school graduation. My parents and I never became emotionally close. Even now, as a 27 year old adult, I believe my parents hit their children because they were too lazy to SPEAK to us on our level to try to understand the CAUSES or our undesirable behaviors and to TEACH us the behaviors they wanted to see instead. They just lashed out in violent frustration like petulant kids. 

Mind you, I wasn't savagely beaten or neglected and I was "spanked" maybe 3-4 times per year for things like bringing home poor behavior marks on a report card, getting a call home for inattention in class, or speaking too sternly or assertively with an adult. Also, as I was scoring beyond high school levels on my standardized tests by age 8, a little communication or active listening from my parents would have revealed that I was bored out of my mind in class and should have been advanced a few grades to challenge me intellectually. That would have resolved my issues with inattention and constant distraction in class. Communication is key. They never spoke to me about the ROOT of the problem. Just said, "behave" and spanked away.

My fiancé has 3 boys. His 10 y/o twins live with us full time and his 5 y/o lives with the child's mother. We don't strike any of them. The twins respond to verbal instruction and correction fantastically. When their behavior or actions are unacceptable, they become distraught, remorseful and determined to behave better simply by being told, "You have disappointed me" or "I'm very disappointed" or "You represent our family. Do you think your actions have presented us favorably or shamefully?" The "represent our family" line leaves them blubbering with remorse. When they've behaved particularly unacceptably, we assign extra chores or revoke privileges as penance. Everytime, prior to initiating consequences, we discuss the offending behaviors and explain why they are unacceptable as well as give acceptable alternatives. Likewise, they are praised for desirable behavior and rewarded for exceptional accomplishments along with an explanation of why they are being rewarded or praised. Telling them, "You've made me SO proud" or "That was a very honorable/responsible/generous way to behave" or "I can tell you tried very hard and that makes me happy" makes their little faces light up and they're thrilled to pieces for days. The twins misbehave SO rarely. They keep one another in line and build each other up. Even their friends who are not raised like our boys, behave like them when they come over. 

The 5 y/o, on the other hand, lives with a mother who believes firmly in "spare the rod, spoil the child." Boy, does she love that rod! She doesn't SPEAK to him about her expectations. She doesn't TEACH him what is right, just punishes him when he's wrong. She's all about raising her voice, corporal punishment, and sitting him in time out. She tells him he's "bad" when she spanks and yells at him. You've seen her. She's the chick who yells at her kid, "Shut up or I'll smack you" and "Sit down or I'll pop you" at the grocery store. It's obnoxious and embarrassing. Of course, he's wild and out of control with her and follows no directions. He strikes his mother, father, brother's and me when he doesn't get his way. He calls names, threatens to smack people, everything his mother does to him, he does to others. Even his father is embarrassed when he acts out in public but the child's not with us for long enough periods of time to retrain. Every other weekend and some holidays. We just never take him anywhere that children are expected to behave. I would think that his mother would realize how ineffective her tactics are and try something else but, she was hit and yelled at as a child so she hits and yells at her child. No one can teach her otherwise. 

Sure, the twins are a bit older, but they were younger once. Also, the fiancé used to spank them. When I moved in, the boys were unruly and wild but I would never strike them. I don't believe in striking children at all but I most definitely would NEVER consider striking someone else's kids. The boys needed discipline and consistency. So, I taught their father my methods and they've been wonderful ever since. They strive to make us proud and, when they do, we let them know. We actually get complements when out in public about how well behaved, disciplined, and mature the boys are. That makes them proud to hear.

Human beings, in general, respond best to a system of rewards and punishments. Most people respond more favorably to rewards. Consider. Are you more likely to take on extra projects at work for the possibility of promotion and a raise or would you take on extra work just to avoid being fired? Will you perform well at tasks if you know that exceptional work is truly appreciated and you take pride in your work or will you perform well just to avoid your boss or clients throwing a tantrum? Do you think your children are more likely to keep their rooms clean and be respectful because they know that they'll go to disneyland during the summer for meeting your expectations all year or will they clean their rooms and be respectful to avoid being hit throughout the year? Answer honestly and know that most human beings, adult and child alike, will choose the rewards.

"Train up a child in the way he should go and he will not depart from it." Teach your children to strike when angry and they will continue to do so. Teach your children that favorable behavior yields favorable results and they will behave as such.

They're your kids so you'll do whatever you want but I would encourage you to try TEACHING and COMMUNICATING with them before resorting to striking them. The ONLY thing I learned from being "spanked" by my parents was that I didn't like being struck and it made me angry, resentful and disgusted with them. 

Further, I'm pretty sure I would not have been a drugged out axe-murderer whether my parents hit me or not. I turned out ok because of who I am not because I was hit. I have plenty of successful, loving, caring, responsible friends who've never ever been hit by anyone.


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## EleGirl

bellawhite said:


> Thanks great advice! My oldest, 5 yrs old is veryyyyyyy stubborn and sometimes it drives me crazy and i dont know what to do with
> Him and feel thay spanking him is what works best, does anyone here have an extremely hard headed child and were you able to break that from him?


It depends on what he's doing.

Give some examples of what he does.


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## EleGirl

I have 7 siblings. Our parents spanked us. We were not violent to each other or anyone else. None of us have been violent in our marriages or to your children.

We are in fact some of the nicest/kindest people I have ever met. We all got our college degress on our own, have been successful, have raised families, etc.


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## Holland

I have never smacked my kids, never would, am totally opposed to it. We raised the kids to be well behaved without the need for smacking them.


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## BjornFree

I have no issues with spanking. I've done it myself a few times when they were young. My eldest son was 11 when he forged my signature on his report card, unfortunately for him I found out. The memory of what followed makes him shudder to this day. He turned out alright. He's 28 now, nice job, nice car, nice house, nice girlfriend. 

When we were growing up, getting spanked was pretty much an everyday affair. Not just at home either. In fact, getting spanked in front of the whole class was equivalent to winning the best student of the day award.


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## BjornFree

hambone said:


> Spanking is a lazy parent's shortcut to parenting. It's a big person beating up on a little person and in the long run... just leads to power struggles and resentment.


You obviously don't have any clue of how enjoyable it is to pick on little people.


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## BjornFree

Not to sound rude MandyPoo but your post was more along the lines of "Hey look at me I'm brilliant, I'm better than everyone else" than about spanking. But that's just my opinion. Have a good day.


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## SimplyAmorous

My Father used the Belt on me once when I hurt the neighbor boy -just being a little too careless....when my mom wasn't home, he tied me to a tree so I wouldn't run into the road...while he was getting some work done right there beside me. 

I suppose some may say this was abuse.... but I wouldn't... I have no trauma in this regard... I don't remember being on that leash with the tree.....they joked about that one christmas.. ..and I laughed about it....and that belt incident... Let me just say... I was more careful after that time with playing with little boys. 

We *did *spank our kids...our kids are are NOT violent in any way, shape of form...good kids, hang with a good crowd...the brains in the school, the nice kids .... no drinking, smoking, teen sex...enjoy youth group (not cause I force them to go, cause they want to be involved...volunteer for Carpenters Project, oldest a Worship Leader today...

They stick up for the innocent, and defend the outcast...they don't follow the crowd either, they think for themselves .... Proud of our boys... 

We discipline with consequences pretty much...with much communication along the way....about ALL issues. They can bring anything to us, we will even allow them to argue a point, I want to know how they feel, then they listen to us in return...

I also tell them if they do something stupid like Drink and drive, whatever, if they land in jail...they will sit there, we won't be bailing them out... If they think it's cool to go bash a neighbors mail box in on an old country road (this happens to us from time to time)... they'd march up to that homeowners door, knock on it and admit their guilt - and use their hands to replace it with brand new... I would be harder on them than a Judge would... but that's to their benefit.

If my little boy ran out into the street chasing a ball...he is not going to get TIME out, he is going to get a reaction from me that he is NOT going to forget...yeah... but true...after they reach a certain age of reason... removing what they LOVE off of them is the answer to discipline.. the spanking ceases.

Husband was spanked also... his dad would take off his belt and snap it in front of the kids, only used it on him a couple times I guess, he was a good boy...he still is.


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## bellawhite

Thank you to everyone who took their time to comment back, i really appreciate all the input!
Elegirl, let me give you some examples, today we we to mothers day lunch at a friends house, it was a long day, the house is wickedddd tiny, and i told him to sit still next to me for a while and he like defies me by doing it his way, he sat on the couch, and i said no, next to me, then he sat on the floor, he constantly tries to prove to me that he is his own boss! We went to the lake to go paddling, but the paddles were closed, and he said no there not, yes son, they are, no there not, yes they are we will come back next sunday! When is next sunday? What day is tomorrow? And he will go on and on until he totally drains every single ounce out of me! Ill say son eat your dinner please, he will say, but its hot, no its not, yes it is, ill let it cool for a few more minutes then he takessssss forever to eat, and is veryyyy lazy when it comes to eating by himself, he will say he doesnt know how, but he does, and then he says ill eat by myself once i turn 6, and its just a battle every morning to drink his milk bc he doesnt like when the chocolate floats on top he will hold the cup for 10 minutes until it all sinks to the bottom, then at lunch it takes an hour for him to eat, while everyone is done and moved on, then to take a shower he asks every single day if ill wash his hair and everyday i say yes bc he gets all sweaty and i like to wash it, and he will try giving me a hard time about that too! Plus i have a 2 year old to take care of so by the end of the day im drainedddd out! I seriously dont know what else to do bc everything is a battle with him! He insists on having everything his way, its just hard! Somedays its hard to enjoy motherhood bc he gives me a hard time a lot!! Please, anyone that has gone through this i appreciate the input, im desperate! Love this site and thank u all who are willing to help! He is stubborn and hard headed and i just dont know how to stop it!
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## mablenc

Ok, my parenting is different because my child has aspergers but he's stubborn as your son, I kind of laughed when I read your last post.

First of all any other conserns in regards to his behaviors?
Do you think he may be a bit over compulsive or perfectionist? He sounds just like my son, I don't know yours and please don't think I'm trying to diagnose him but, he sounds like a kid with a mild form of aspergers or OC. 
I don't believe in spanking especially with children like my son. Have you tried to prepare him ahead of time. For example dinner is at six and we have to be done by 6:30' at 6:20 say ten more minutes and so on.

A daily schedule can help with the showering although, he is still very Young, do you think maybe you are being too demanding and that's why he argues about everything? 
It seems you are drained, why not try to slow things down, maybe have him shower every other day. One day just sit with him and answer all his questions, I was always asking things it's the way he learns. If he was asking about the days show him a calendar, he may be gifted on something and he's just trying to reason things.

Children are little people waiting and wanting to explore everything. He will grow up soon and be in is room and not want to talk to you, so enjoy him and build that trust with him.


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## bellawhite

Thank u! Its funny bc i was online googling things up and came across the word aspergers and i had never heard it before! And while some of the things do match, others dont! Ill have to get the list tomorrow and let u know which ones do and dont! But today im in need of some shut eye! Its been a longgg day and im tiredd! Exhausted actually! And totally drained! But a few quick things, he learned to ride a bike with no training wheels at age 3, and swimming at age 4 almost 5, and after only 2 days of me really teaching him! Very active and good at everything he does, but once in a while ne says things that upset me, like ill never talk to u anymore, or i dont love u anymore when hes crying and fraustrated! I just really want to understand and help my son so i can feel connected to him and so he wont suffer in the future with other relationships! He also has a history of repeating things over and over and over again, which i thought it could have been autistic but not anymore! Oh and one day i dropped him off at school and he grabbed a screwdriver that was in the car without me seeing and when his teacher asked what it was for he said it was to poke her! I was in shock bc he is normally a nice kid and then he said he was sorry and he was just kidding! I was sooo upset!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bellawhite

Oh and another thing, he hatess taking pictures and he will complain and go on and on asking me to take only 1, and will force a smile! Is it normal for a 5 year old to have such a stubborn personality? He wants absolutely everything his way! Sorry for the rant, its just we had a hard day today! And im drained!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waiwera

It's illegal to hit your children in New Zealand.

Which is fine by me... as it's also illegal to hit any other person in life who annoys or angers or frustrates me. I have to use self control and/or communication skills to cope with the situation... no biggie really. 

I also am not allowed to hit my dog...so it seems fair I shouldn't hit my kids either.

I have 3 sons...14, 17 and 26. All good lads, the youngest is full of teenage angst at the moment and a pain in the bum some days but just the usual for a 14 year old. None of them have ever broken the law (that I know of) or had behavioural issues. 

We should also remember this discussion was going on 100ish years ago (in the British commonwealth countries at least) when the law makers were trying to decided whether to out-law husbands being allowed to beat their wives. The worry was.. not being able to discipline these unruly women would lead to the collapse of the family unit and probably even society itself! 

Seems barbaric now though... doesn't it?

I would like to think in the (near) future we all stop hitting our children...they deserve at least the same rights as my dog and that annoying plonker at work...surely.


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## EleGirl

bellawhite said:


> Elegirl, let me give you some examples, today we we to mothers day lunch at a friends house, it was a long day, the house is wickedddd tiny, and i told him to sit still next to me for a while and he like defies me by doing it his way, he sat on the couch, and i said no, next to me, then he sat on the floor,


Why did it matter if he sat on the floor or the couch? Was someone else going to sit on the couch?
It sounds like your son wants to be trusted to make his own decisions. Maybe you can stop some of this defiance by just stop making what he sees as needless demands. Let him sit where he wants to. 

He might also be bored. A always took some toys with me so that at that age my son had something to keep himself busy with. If you want him to sit on the floor, bring some toy cars. Then sitting on the floor makes sense and his mind and hands are kept busy.



bellawhite said:


> he constantly tries to prove to me that he is his own boss! We went to the lake to go paddling, but the paddles were closed, and he said no there not, yes son, they are, no there not,


Some of the most important things you can teach your son are independence (being his own boss). So let him be more of his own boss. Once he starts to read he will be able to read the signs himself, so you will not need to tell him things like they are closed.

This story about the paddle boats reminds my about my son and dinosaurs. When he was 4, my son believed that there were still dinosaur s. He wanted a pet dinosaur. I kept telling him that they do not live any more, there are only bones. He did not believe me and thought that I just did not want him to have a t-rex for a bit (well he did have a point with that one ). He demanded that I take him to the pet store to get a pet dinosaur. I finally gave in and told him that if I was wrong and dinosaur s did exist he could buy a pet dinosaur at the pet store. Of course when he got there the clerks at the pet store informed him that dinosaur s no longer exist. So now it was the clerks telling him this and not me. I was off the hook. I did compromise by letting him get a pet of some kind of tropical lizard. He agreed that it was just a small dinosaur as that was all that was left in our time.


bellawhite said:


> he constantly tries to prove to me that he is his own boss! We went to the lake to go paddling, but the paddles were closed, and he said no there not, yes son, they are, no there not, yes they are we will come back next sunday! When is next sunday? What day is tomorrow? And he will go on and on until he totally drains every single ounce out of me!


The questions…. Children your son’s age ask an average of 400 questions a day. I see parents all the time telling kids to stop asking questions. To me this is just wrong. This is how children learn. I recall being on answer auto pilot. I got to the point where I could answer the 400 questions without even realizing I was doing it. You have an intelligent, inquisitive child. So answer his questions. It’s your job as his mother. You could have taken out a piece of paper and written down the days of the week for him in order. Or give him a calendar and teach him to read it and use it. He’s old enough for this at 5. Can he tell time? Teach him how to read old clocks with hands now.. and also digital clocks.

At 4 I got Hooked On Phonics and taught my son to read. Within 3-4 weeks he was reading at 8th grade level. I then got him encyclopedias. So he could read the answer to a lot of his questions. They were his favorite books.



bellawhite said:


> Ill say son eat your dinner please, he will say, but its hot, no its not, yes it is, ill let it cool for a few more minutes then he takessssss forever to eat, and is veryyyy lazy when it comes to eating by himself, he will say he doesnt know how, but he does, and then he says ill eat by myself once i turn 6,


Ok, stop that. Why are you arguing with a 4 year old? If he says it’s hot.. .it’s hot to him. He argues because you do not trust his assessment of things. How is he going to learn to trust his own feelings and thoughts if you keep telling him he is wrong? If he says it’s hot. Then simply tell him to let it cool down and then eat it.

A lot of kids his age eat very slowly. Don’t rush him. You know he’s like this so just plan dinner time so he has the time he needs to eat. Another thing you can do is to tell him that if he does not want to eat that you will put the food aside for a while and he can eat when he is hungry. Kids his age have very up and down appetites. Some days they will eat the house and the next day they take 1-2 bites and they are done.

He does not eat by himself because he wants your attention. He wants you to feed him because you are paying attention to him. So find ways to praise him if he eats by himself. Praise him for it.



bellawhite said:


> and its just a battle every morning to drink his milk bc he doesnt like when the chocolate floats on top he will hold the cup for 10 minutes until it all sinks to the bottom,


Find solutions to problems instead of letting them go on over and over. Pour his milk 10 minutes before he sits down to breakfast. 

Is he really drinking chocolate milk every morning? Will he drink milk without the extra sugar and calories? If so give him milk with no chocolate.

Or get chocolate for his milk that does not float up and down in the glass. 

Is he one of those kids who just does not like milk? I am like that. I hate milk. I would not drink it as a child. I do love yogurt and cottage cheese. I have yogurt with fresh fruit instead of milk.



bellawhite said:


> then at lunch it takes an hour for him to eat, while everyone is done and moved on,


So let him take his time. If you have to go somewhere. Pack his lunch and he can snack on it later if he gets hungry. 

Do you make him sit there until he finishes his food? If you do, stop it. Just let him eat what he wants to eat. It’s not good to teach a kid that they have to eat everything on their plate before they can get up. It can lead to over eating as adults. Let children learn to eat what their body tells them they need.


bellawhite said:


> then to take a shower he asks every single day if ill wash his hair and everyday i say yes bc he gets all sweaty and i like to wash it, and he will try giving me a hard time about that too!


LOL…. Yep that’s a boy. This one is harder because if you want him to shower and wash his hair daily you are going to have to supervise him. He should not be near water unsupervised at this age anyway.

Maybe you could compromise and let him choose to not have his hair washed 1 or 2 days a week. Let him decide on that calendar which days of the week he chooses. If you do this you have given him some of that control over his life that he wants so badly even at this young age. You might find that he is much more cooperative if he gets things his own way once in a while.


bellawhite said:


> Plus i have a 2 year old to take care of so by the end of the day im drainedddd out!


Yep, that’s parenthood. What else can I way?


bellawhite said:


> I seriously dont know what else to do bc everything is a battle with him! He insists on having everything his way, its just hard! Somedays its hard to enjoy motherhood bc he gives me a hard time a lot!! Please, anyone that has gone through this i appreciate the input, im desperate! Love this site and thank u all who are willing to help! He is stubborn and hard headed and i just dont know how to stop it!


The way you do this is that you do not stop what you call “stubborn and hard headed”. It’s really intelligence and independence. Two things that you want to nurture.

It sounds like you have a smart little guy there who really wants to grow up and be his own man. The best thing you can do is to teach him to make his own decisions and to trust his decisions. Sure he’ll make mistakes. But as his age they will be small mistakes that can be easily fixed. Stop fighting him and find ways to let him pursue his intelligence and express his independence.

My son was a lot like your son in so many ways. He’s 24 now. I only made the rules that were absolutely necessary. 

One thing that really helps is to ask for his help. Let him help you with the baby. He can carry bags for you to the car. Tell him he’s the big brother. And since he’s so grown up the baby looks up to him.

One of my sisters was a school teacher. She said that when she had a particularly hard to handle child in her class she would make the kid her helper. That was the kid to handed out assignments, collected them. Got material ready for assignments, etc. What she found is that she showed them that she trusted them and gave them responsibility the troublesome kid turned into a very cooperative side kick that the entire classed benefited from.


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## mablenc

bellawhite said:


> Oh and another thing, he hatess taking pictures and he will complain and go on and on asking me to take only 1, and will force a smile! Is it normal for a 5 year old to have such a stubborn personality? He wants absolutely everything his way! Sorry for the rant, its just we had a hard day today! And im drained!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well no two people with autism or aspergers are alike, please feel free to PM me if you like or continue to post. Many of the things you have posted make me suspicious, my parents tought I was just a little odd, then when I started to learn about aspergers I was like oh ok, I thought smelling everything was normal :rofl: I still have something's I would consider to fall into the aspergers categorty but, I have not bothered to get diagnosed as I'm older and I adapt. 
Anyway the thing about autism/aspergers is that the brain is wired differently which is why they may be geniuses in something's but behind in others. My son for example is gifted in music he has perfect pitch, started composing very young, can recognize any note, he is gifted in math multiplying up to the 14s since he was three he also has an amazing memory which is called calendar memory. But, he had a severe speech delay, regressed in potty traing when he was 4 and is social but awkward.

When you mentioned the screw driver it made me giggle because if my son does not like something or someone he will say things like cut the teacher or flush the baby ( he gets annoyed with crying) then he will say things like mommy flushes babies which make me cringe  but he just means he would like me to get the baby ( no we don't have one) and remove him from the area.
About the pictures I don't think I have a decent one he makes the weirdest smile.

Many gifted kids are a bit awkward/different too, same pattern of strick routine, never wrong (my son checks the calculator to see if the calculator is wrong), one million questions personality.

Do some research if need take him to a specialist, I would look for one who has experience with autism so you can be sure, we went to a doctor who was clueless. Any engineers in the family is the question the always ask, we have three husband and my two brothers. For some reason they have found that pattern, i believe it's a way of thinking which is problem solving.

I think you would benefit from a daily schedule just simple, if needed give him a timer set and set it, some warn in red five minutes prior, this helps changing from one task to another especially when eating. 

And don't stress everyone is different he may just be a more routine scheduler type of kid. As for the questions see what he is interested in and engage him look t books websites ect, but warning these kids are hackers my son has hacked into our accounts and his teachers amazon account. Not on purpose he just has the ability to navigate easily and remember everything you are typing even if you think they are not paying attention.

Does he have trouble sleeping?


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## mablenc

And to add to the spanking discussion, I don't believe in spanking, like posted before in some places it's illegal to hit animals, why do it o children who are not animals and can reason. Plus I have not meet a person who can really not hit when angry,if you can kudos to you.

I used to get so frustrated with my son who would be up until 3 am refusing to go to sleep. Then I learned that with his autism he also has a sleep disorder. How counter productve would it had been if I had spanked him for that,it was not even intentional or controllable.


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## EleGirl

bellawhite said:


> Thank u! Its funny bc i was online googling things up and came across the word aspergers and i had never heard it before! And while some of the things do match, others dont! Ill have to get the list tomorrow and let u know which ones do and dont! But today im in need of some shut eye! Its been a longgg day and im tiredd! Exhausted actually! And totally drained! But a few quick things, he learned to ride a bike with no training wheels at age 3, and swimming at age 4 almost 5, and after only 2 days of me really teaching him! Very active and good at everything he does,


Be careful about looking for diagnosis for your son. He sounds fine to me. He’s a lot like my son was from what you say.

We got my son a 2 wheeler with training wheels at age 3. He refused to use it until we removed the training wheels. So finally we did. Then he worked for a few days (all day) teaching himself to ride the bike. He refused teaching from anyone. He was going to do it is way and by golly he did. I also taught him to swim at age 4. He was head strong on that as well. 

When I had the Hooked on Phonics. We did a few weeks of the lesson plans. Then he refused to do anymore. He insisted that he understood how to read and he was not going to waste his time on lessons that he did not need. And you know what? He was right. He was reading at 8th grade level before he started kindergarten. 



bellawhite said:


> but once in a while ne says things that upset me, like ill never talk to u anymore, or i dont love u anymore when hes crying and fraustrated!


All of this is normal. Your best bet is to not get upset about it. 

My son told me once or twice that he did not love me. My response was something like “Well I love you and always will.” Then I just walked away. If you let him know that words like this hurt you, he might learn to use them for hurting you. Just let him know that you love him. And do not react negatively to this. He’s a very young child with emotions that he does not understand yet. You can also help him by teaching him the names of his emotions. “You said that because you are angry with me. It’s not nice to say mean things when you are angry. Instead you need to find a way to calm yourself down and get rid of the anger. I’ll let you have some quiet time so you can think about this.” And then walk away.

If he seems to be frustrated say “you are frustrated because you cannot do what you want to. But I cannot let you -------- because it will --------.” (for example cannot let you jump on the bed because it will break the bed.) (or cannot let you stay up beyond bedtime because you will be tired all day tomorrow.)



bellawhite said:


> I just really want to understand and help my son so i can feel connected to him and so he wont suffer in the future with other relationships! He also has a history of repeating things over and over and over again, which i thought it could have been autistic but not anymore!


Can you give an example of what he repeats over and over? What are the circumstances?



bellawhite said:


> Oh and one day i dropped him off at school and he grabbed a screwdriver that was in the car without me seeing and when his teacher asked what it was for he said it was to poke her! I was in shock bc he is normally a nice kid and then he said he was sorry and he was just kidding! I was sooo upset!


He is a child. Children do strange things. That’s why we keep an eye on them all the time. I hope you had a long talk with him about how wrong this was for him to do. Maybe he needs more info about what is dangerous and what is not acceptable.

For example my son used to want to take his toy gun with him to the store. I told him no because people might think it was a real gun. We don’t allow most people to carry real guns in stores and I did not want his toy gun mistaken for a real one. This might seem over silly to some.. but there have been a couple of young teen in our city killed by the police who mistook their toy for a real gun. I wanted him to learn what was allowed in public way before he was old enough to get in the sad situation those other kids were in.

And then I hope you removed all tools and other things that could be dangerous from your car.


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## EleGirl

bellawhite said:


> Oh and another thing, he hatess taking pictures and he will complain and go on and on asking me to take only 1, and will force a smile! Is it normal for a 5 year old to have such a stubborn personality? He wants absolutely everything his way! Sorry for the rant, its just we had a hard day today! And im drained!


What's "normal" at 5? The range of normal is very broad.

It is very normal for a 5 year old to want come say in their life and to want to have some control. And he should have some. He’s old enough. One of my favorite sayings is to never do anything for person over 4 that they can do for themself.

About the photos. Yes this is very normal. A lot of kids hate to have their pictures taken. One thing you can do to get him to lighten up on this is to get him an inexpensive digital camera. Let him start taking photos and posting them on line. It might teach him why people love photos. Especially encourage him to take photos of the baby and you and his father. He can take pictures of himself. He can even use one of those photo editors and give everyone a mustache and beard. Who knows he might become the next Ansell Adams.


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## hambone

waiwera said:


> It's illegal to hit your children in New Zealand.
> 
> Which is fine by me... as it's also illegal to hit any other person in life who annoys or angers or frustrates me. I have to use self control and/or communication skills to cope with the situation... no biggie really.
> 
> I also am not allowed to hit my dog...so it seems fair I shouldn't hit my kids either.
> 
> I have 3 sons...14, 17 and 26. All good lads, the youngest is full of teenage angst at the moment and a pain in the bum some days but just the usual for a 14 year old. None of them have ever broken the law (that I know of) or had behavioural issues.
> 
> We should also remember this discussion was going on 100ish years ago (in the British commonwealth countries at least) when the law makers were trying to decided whether to out-law husbands being allowed to beat their wives. The worry was.. not being able to discipline these unruly women would lead to the collapse of the family unit and probably even society itself!
> 
> Seems barbaric now though... doesn't it?
> 
> I would like to think in the (near) future we all stop hitting our children...they deserve at least the same rights as my dog and that annoying plonker at work...surely.


Well said.


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## Holland

waiwera said:


> It's illegal to hit your children in New Zealand.
> 
> Which is fine by me... as it's also illegal to hit any other person in life who annoys or angers or frustrates me. I have to use self control and/or communication skills to cope with the situation... no biggie really.
> 
> I also am not allowed to hit my dog...so it seems fair I shouldn't hit my kids either.
> 
> I have 3 sons...14, 17 and 26. All good lads, the youngest is full of teenage angst at the moment and a pain in the bum some days but just the usual for a 14 year old. None of them have ever broken the law (that I know of) or had behavioural issues.
> 
> We should also remember this discussion was going on 100ish years ago (in the British commonwealth countries at least) when the law makers were trying to decided whether to out-law husbands being allowed to beat their wives. The worry was.. not being able to discipline these unruly women would lead to the collapse of the family unit and probably even society itself!
> 
> Seems barbaric now though... doesn't it?
> 
> I would like to think in the (near) future we all stop hitting our children...they deserve at least the same rights as my dog and that annoying plonker at work...surely.


I was living in NZ when they introduced this, man what a stuff up was made of the referendum. 
But I digress, totally agree with you on this.


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## Sunshine Cadillac

bellawhite said:


> I'm not looking for what the text book tells us, but I want a more personal opinion? Do you spank? And in the long run, how did your kids turn out? Did you not spank? Are your teenagers good kids? By the way I'm a christian mom, so I do agree with the word of God but I'd like to hear ppls thoughts on this..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was spanked, and if needed when i have kids at least with the first one i will also spank. There is a HUGE difference between violence and discipline, you just have to know how far to not take it and not take it. I feel like everything went downhill when the school systems removed the strap and discipline. Back then there weren't many bullies, or terrorism or shootings etc. Its all due to the lack of real discipline. Just my opinion, everyone will be different and will do different  

I just had this discussion with my parents last night actually! lol Some people might have the most polite children from birth till the end of their day and have never been spanked once and that could just be the parents amazing parenting skills or the way that they teach their children what they need to teach them and how the children respect their parents. And some people may be lazy and dont do anything with their kids and dont parent them and dont discipline them and they turn into brats. I just cant stand seeing children disrespecting their parents and parents dont do anything about it. 

Ive been around so many children my whole life and i love kids, and while i dont have any of my own i spend more than enough time with my friends young children to be able to at least discuss with my fiance how things will go down when we have kids in the next 1-2 years after we get married. I am actually glad that we had the chance to see what others do, observe the behavior and/or lack or discipline some friends do and dont provide and so we are able to discuss what we will do in the future, then we are not blind sided and come across further arguments when we have children. Sorry if that was a bit long winded


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## EleGirl

waiwera said:


> It's illegal to hit your children in New Zealand.
> 
> Which is fine by me... as it's also illegal to hit any other person in life who annoys or angers or frustrates me. I have to use self control and/or communication skills to cope with the situation... no biggie really.
> 
> I also am not allowed to hit my dog...so it seems fair I shouldn't hit my kids either.
> 
> I have 3 sons...14, 17 and 26. All good lads, the youngest is full of teenage angst at the moment and a pain in the bum some days but just the usual for a 14 year old. None of them have ever broken the law (that I know of) or had behavioural issues.
> 
> We should also remember this discussion was going on 100ish years ago (in the British commonwealth countries at least) when the law makers were trying to decided whether to out-law husbands being allowed to beat their wives. The worry was.. not being able to discipline these unruly women would lead to the collapse of the family unit and probably even society itself!
> 
> Seems barbaric now though... doesn't it?
> 
> I would like to think in the (near) future we all stop hitting our children...they deserve at least the same rights as my dog and that annoying plonker at work...surely.


There are some very distict differences between wife beating and spanking a child.

Husbands used to have the legal right to “correct” their wife as long as they left no marks, did not break bones, etc. “Correct” is a secret code word for “hit”.

The problem with that is that now men and women are equal legally. So we are equal partners in marriage. Women no longer have the legal status of children. Peers do not discipline each other.. especially not the male only having the right to discipline the female. 

A husband never has the right to discipline his wife. Not anymore.
Parents on the other hand have the legal responsibility to discipline their children. It the parents job to teach a child how to be safe, how to behave, etc.

I forget the name of it but there is a portion of the brain at the base of the skull that is where automatic responses/behaviors are controlled. It is the most primitive part of the brain. That is where the flight and fight response responses come from.

The way to train that part of the brain is through physical correction. When a child touches a hot stove that part of the brain registers hot=hurt. From that point on the child will react automatically to high heat. 

Spanking a child trains this part of the brain. When a very young child runs into the street yelling and reasoning will not work. You cannot reason with a 2/3 year old. Their brains do not have the capacity. But spank the child immediately when you pull them out of traffic trains that part of the brain. Running into traffic hurts. 

Again I’m not talking about beating a child. I’m not talking about hitting them hard in anger. I’m talking about a spank on the behind. It does not need to be hard. It should never be done in anger or frustration.


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## BjornFree

I think most people really misunderstand the reasoning behind corporal punishment. Social conditioning has made a lot of young people equate spanking and any form of physical punishment to abuse. 

There's a lot of difference between disciplining a child and abusing a child. Responsible parents don't derive any satisfaction or pleasure by laying a firm hand on their children. In fact its quite hard on the parents too. For every lashing I got from my father's belt I knew it hurt him a lot more than it hurt me. He did it because he had to and he did it because he loved me. It wasn't until I became a parent that I realized this.

Sure, once children start growing up the methods of disciplining them also need to change but small children don't really need me to look all sad and depressed and tell them how disappointed I am in them. These innocent guys will take it to heart, that's a lot of emotional pressure you're putting on the little ones. For us spanking and a little rap on the knuckles worked best when we were dealing with 8 year olds.



EleGirl said:


> Spanking a child trains this part of the brain. When a very young child runs into the street yelling and reasoning will not work. You cannot reason with a 2/3 year old. Their brains do not have the capacity. But spank the child immediately when you pull them out of traffic trains that part of the brain. Running into traffic hurts.


Oh man I'd almost forgotten about one time when my daughter(also our youngest)ran out of the car when we'd stopped on the highway. I pulled her back and was none too gentle doing it. Then I gave her a pretty hard spank on the bum. Poor girl pissed out of fear but I'd like to think it had a lot more to do with the speeding truck than me. The first thing out of my wife's mouth was " You monster". Since then I pretty much left the disciplining part to my wife while I indulged my little girl. I generally feel its best to let the women handle the girls and the men to handle the boys. Little wonder that my sons would first approach their mother to influence me to make decisions in their favor while my girl would come straight to me. Thats how it usually is though


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## Bellavista

Bellawhite, it does sound like your son could benefit from extra activities to stretch his mind and by being allowed some freedom in decision making.

Have you tried finding a sport that is suitable for a youngster? Gymnastics, karate etc are good alternatives to football or baseball or whatever you have there in the way of sport. 

I agree with elegirl on the milk thing, none of my kids has drank milk since they came off the baby bottle, they just don't it. If they said they did not like a certain food, I would just give them toast for dinner, I didn't make special meals for each one, but neither did I force them to eat something they did not like, after all, there are foods I don't like as well.

He does not sound like my aspergers son, he sounds more like my highly intelligent son who needed constant stimulation and learning as a youngster. He is still like that now at 21, always seeking knowledge and expanding his skill set.


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## *LittleDeer*

EleGirl said:


> There are some very distict differences between wife beating and spanking a child.
> 
> Husbands used to have the legal right to “correct” their wife as long as they left no marks, did not break bones, etc. “Correct” is a secret code word for “hit”.
> 
> The problem with that is that now men and women are equal legally. So we are equal partners in marriage. Women no longer have the legal status of children. Peers do not discipline each other.. especially not the male only having the right to discipline the female.
> 
> A husband never has the right to discipline his wife. Not anymore.
> Parents on the other hand have the legal responsibility to discipline their children. It the parents job to teach a child how to be safe, how to behave, etc.
> 
> I forget the name of it but there is a portion of the brain at the base of the skull that is where automatic responses/behaviors are controlled. It is the most primitive part of the brain. That is where the flight and fight response responses come from.
> 
> The way to train that part of the brain is through physical correction. When a child touches a hot stove that part of the brain registers hot=hurt. From that point on the child will react automatically to high heat.
> 
> Spanking a child trains this part of the brain. When a very young child runs into the street yelling and reasoning will not work. You cannot reason with a 2/3 year old. Their brains do not have the capacity. But spank the child immediately when you pull them out of traffic trains that part of the brain. Running into traffic hurts.
> 
> Again I’m not talking about beating a child. I’m not talking about hitting them hard in anger. I’m talking about a spank on the behind. It does not need to be hard. It should never be done in anger or frustration.


I disagree. I have rarely ever yelled at my son. I reserve yelling for those dangerous situations. If my son goes to run onto the street, I would and have (it's been a rare instance) yelled at him to STOP. This shocks him, and he stops. I have only yelled handful of times. He is very well behaved. I'm not saying he's never challenged me, but he over all learns really well by example and explanation. 

Studies have found that in toddlers and babies, diversion works just as well as sacking, and has the same results.


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## Bellavista

Geez I wish my kids had been all good.

If I am to believe everything I read I am just damned lucky I did not turn out a bunch of old lady beating thugs and girls who ***** themselves to find their self worth.

On that note, I am getting to worked up so shall bow out of this discussion.


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## wifeandmummy

No we dont spank.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mablenc

OP,
you have posted frustrated you are and desperate this seems like you have tried everything you can. 

I would suggest you speak to your sons doctor, his doctor will talk to you and answer your questions. If they feel that you need some type of help they can refer you to a counselor who will sit with you and your child gather information and give you advise on how to work with him. this will be more like family therapy and you can follow up as needed. 

Or if you doctor is concerned about mental wellness they can refer you to a specialist most of the time its a neurologist, a psychologist or psychiatric. They will give you many forms to fill out and questioners for you, spouse, teachers/caregivers and doctor. 
From that information they will look at which direction to head and make a further assessment. This can include, checking to see if he is gifted.

My neurologist actually took blood test to check for deficiencies and fragile X syndrome as well as an MRI. this is important because there are things you have to rule out first. 

Once you have a diagnosis many times (depending on the diagnosis) they send you to a behavioral specialist which works with you the same way the counselor would but with a more defined plan. They follow up regularly and tweak the plans as needed. 

Last, if things are not working well then they will see if medication can help, this should be the last resort.

*If it will give you peace of mind, why not check it out. The worst that can happen is that they tell you your child is fine and help you with parenting plan.* Always make sure you are comfortable with what they are telling you, you know your child best seek second opinions if needed. 

*Its better to check and see whats going on than to ignore something that may be important. Plus you mention that you are exhausted it could be that you are stressing too much about it and may need someone to tell you he's OK. *I would not worry about them labeling because they are actually being more careful because of the ADHD over diagnosis. My child's doctor will not give out any medication for mental health she sends you straight to the specialist. Also, as mentioned above they make you fill out lots of forms, gather information they observe your child, they will do lab work then look into an official diagnosis.
They wont just look at him and label him forever.


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## EleGirl

*LittleDeer* said:


> I disagree. I have rarely ever yelled at my son. I reserve yelling for those dangerous situations. If my son goes to run onto the street, I would and have (it's been a rare instance) yelled at him to STOP. This shocks him, and he stops. I have only yelled handful of times. He is very well behaved. I'm not saying he's never challenged me, but he over all learns really well by example and explanation.
> 
> Studies have found that in toddlers and babies, diversion works just as well as sacking, and has the same results.


Do you really think I am so stupid as to not try use yell STOP to get my 2 year old son to not run into the traffic? Of course I tried that. It did not work. He seemed to think it was funny to do things that got his mother to yell STOP. That's why I spanked him the next time he ran in traffic. Yes he did it more than 2 times. 

He also could climb to the top of book shelves and other things so fast that it was like he just poped up there. Then he'd jump off them.. at 2/3. He was a dare devil toddler. And he's laugh his head off when I yelled STOP.

I spanked my son about 2-3 times in his entire life. Each time it was due to safety issues. Each time it was after I tried everything else.

What did the spanking consist of? One swat on his behind. Not a very hard swat either. 

Using spanking is not about beating a child.


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## bellawhite

Mablec, thank u for the helpful insight, this sounds like a good idea to try! Again thank u!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bellawhite

I started doing some of the stuff ppl suggested and its worked well, and i gave him a few choices at lunch so thats def a great idea!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable

Whether it's spanking, time out, loss of privileges, or whatever, the trick is to start early, be consistent, be believable, and don't discipline in anger. If you aren't going to spank, don't threaten it. If you have to spank more than a couple of times, you didn't do it right. I don't reward bad behavior. I don't ignore bad behavior. I don't say things I don't mean. I don't count to ten or repeat the same instructions or warning more than twice. The sort of punishment that works on one kid doesn't necessarily work on the others but consistency and credibility work on them all. The consequences of bad behavior have to be consistent and as predictable as the sun rising.


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## bellawhite

Nicely said! I agree!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wiserforit

There's abunch of peer reviewed literature out on this. We read a number of papers and if you are going to do it there is a wrong way and a right way. 

Our kids spank us too, or put us in a room for a time-out. It's a great source of amusement to them of course and ameliorates any situation where they wanted to do something and the answer was "no". It's all tears until they get to spank mommy or daddy and that seems to make them forget all about whatever it is they wanted.


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## waiwera

EleGirl said:


> There are some very distict differences between wife beating and spanking a child.
> 
> Husbands used to have the legal right to “correct” their wife as long as they left no marks, did not break bones, etc. “Correct” is a secret code word for “hit”.
> 
> The problem with that is that now men and women are equal legally. So we are equal partners in marriage. Women no longer have the legal status of children. Peers do not discipline each other.. especially not the male only having the right to discipline the female.
> 
> A husband never has the right to discipline his wife. Not anymore.
> Parents on the other hand have the legal responsibility to discipline their children. It the parents job to teach a child how to be safe, how to behave, etc.
> 
> I forget the name of it but there is a portion of the brain at the base of the skull that is where automatic responses/behaviors are controlled. It is the most primitive part of the brain. That is where the flight and fight response responses come from.
> 
> The way to train that part of the brain is through physical correction. When a child touches a hot stove that part of the brain registers hot=hurt. From that point on the child will react automatically to high heat.
> 
> Spanking a child trains this part of the brain. When a very young child runs into the street yelling and reasoning will not work. You cannot reason with a 2/3 year old. Their brains do not have the capacity. But spank the child immediately when you pull them out of traffic trains that part of the brain. Running into traffic hurts.
> 
> Again I’m not talking about beating a child. I’m not talking about hitting them hard in anger. I’m talking about a spank on the behind. It does not need to be hard. It should never be done in anger or frustration.


On the first point I have to disagree... hitting is hitting. Doesn't matter, to me, if it's the wife, the kids or the dog. I don't hit anyone.. it's just wrong IMO.

I have a bias on physical violence/discipline, neither me or my sister were ever smacked as children, Dad never hit Mum and there was no caning or hitting at school. I have lived a very non-violent life... which i see as a really precious thing as we all seem to be living in such a violent world. 

As kids we learnt right from wrong, hot from cold, safe from dangerous without any smacks or whacks, clearly this part of *our* brains did not need physical violence to be trained. I must say I doubt the validity of that bit of information... although i'm always keen to read a credible paper if you have a link. 

With my kids I simply repeated what I lived growing up. I never felt particularly ill equipped to deal with my boys, there were always plenty of tools in the parenting arsenal to apply...depending on the child and the situation. None have ever been run over or burnt. I didn't need to hit them to teach them any of this.

Did I/do I ever feel frustration and anger...of course, quite often, who wouldn't with a houseful of babies/children/teens but smacking isn't necessary for us all.

My sister and I are both educated, polite and well mannered and in long term marriages. All our kids are doing well.

This is not a failed experiment... it works just fine.


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## unbelievable

waiwera, 

There are people in my town who wouldn't break the law whether we had police or not. That doesn't mean police aren't needed or they should be disarmed. For every kid who doesn't require a spanking there is probably one who does. Folks have spanked kids since the first child was squeezed out and we're still here. That suggests greater and more durable success than the most recent 40 years of touchy-feely gobbledygook. Our juvenile delinquency rate has skyrocketed since academics decided they knew more about parenting than God or parents.


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## bellawhite

Unbelieveable, wow, u hit it right on the nail! Exactly what i needed to hear, thank u!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RoseAglow

unbelievable said:


> waiwera,
> 
> Our juvenile delinquency rate has skyrocketed since academics decided they knew more about parenting than God or parents.


That's actually not true. Juvenile crime has been trending down and reached historic lows in 2010, at least in the US:

Juvenile Arrest Rate Trends


In general, kids who are consistently taught discipline- either by spanking or other methods- survive and do fine. 

Personally, I don't spank. I believe it is lazy parenting, and I suspect that when my grandkids are having kids, spanking will be considered pretty much an old relic from the previous century. But, this is just my perspective. To each their own on the issue.


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## Anonymous07

bellawhite said:


> I'm not looking for what the text book tells us, but I want a more personal opinion? Do you spank? And in the long run, how did your kids turn out? Did you not spank? Are your teenagers good kids? By the way I'm a christian mom, so I do agree with the word of God but I'd like to hear ppls thoughts on this..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think there is right time and place to spank, but it should not be used often. An example of this would be if the child ran into the street, you would do one spank and that's it. They would then associate being spanked with running into the street and would unlikely ever do that again. Other than that, I would much rather talk to the child about what they did wrong and have them sit in time out for a short period of time to think about it. 

I was spanked as a child and it made me fearful of my dad. I would hate to have my son fear me from being spanked, as I want him to come to me with any concerns or things to say. There is nothing wrong with spanking if done correctly. I just think a lot of it has to do with consistency, really sticking to what you said. If you back down, then they won't believe you the next time you threaten to do something, which leads to more problems.


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## hambone

Anonymous07 said:


> I think there is right time and place to spank, but it should not be used often. An example of this would be if the child ran into the street, you would do one spank and that's it. They would then associate being spanked with running into the street and would unlikely ever do that again. Other than that, I would much rather talk to the child about what they did wrong and have them sit in time out for a short period of time to think about it.
> 
> I was spanked as a child and it made me fearful of my dad. I would hate to have my son fear me from being spanked, as I want him to come to me with any concerns or things to say. There is nothing wrong with spanking if done correctly. I just think a lot of it has to do with consistency, really sticking to what you said. If you back down, then they won't believe you the next time you threaten to do something, which leads to more problems.


Way earlier in this thread, I gave the example of my child reaching to touch a hot drill bit... Everytime he reached out to touch it, I would tell, "NO... it's gonna bite you". (Bite=pain) Eventually he touched the bit and was burned. Now, what's the difference between me letting him touch the bit... and me spanking him before he touched the bit so he would associate pain with touching the bit? Would the spanking taught him the same lesson as touching the bit? Would he make the same association?


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## janefw

bellawhite said:


> I'm not looking for what the text book tells us, but I want a more personal opinion? Do you spank? And in the long run, how did your kids turn out? Did you not spank? Are your teenagers good kids? By the way I'm a christian mom, so I do agree with the word of God but I'd like to hear ppls thoughts on this..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, we never spanked. I believe that the "rod" can be any form of chastisement and correction, and does not have to be a hand or a slipper or - worse still - a spoon or rod. 

We have raised three boys without spanking - one is almost 21 and will graduate with a BA in Criminal Justice in the fall and go into the police force or border patrol. The middle child is 16 and is an excellent student in high school. He will be taking the medical track after college. The youngest is 13 and is also an excellent student.

Everywhere we have ever gone - churches, people's homes, restaurants - people have commented on how well behaved, polite and confident our kids are. In church, other parents would often seem to be quite exasperated because their kids were playing up, making a fuss etc., and our boys were not. IMO, it's because they were never slapped or pushed or bullied by their parents, so they were able to develop that confidence and security that is so necessary. 

That doesn't mean that they are perfect or that we are perfect. We have had times when we wanted to tear out our hair because of an attitude issue, or a child who didn't want to do as he was told. In the worst cases, the boys have been grounded for a week from all electronics, or had a phone removed for a longer period of time, or had car keys taken away - really, the punishment has been intended to fit the "crime". 

What is really necessary is that both parents be on the same page. Without that, you will be totally lost.


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## janefw

BTW, if a child runs into the street, it's the parent's fault for not holding onto him/her. And if there is a hot drill nearby - move it. 

When our kids were little, anything breakable, fragile or dangerous was placed out of their reach. Therefore they didn't need to be told NO NO NO NO all day long. It's just not rocket science at all.


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## Anonymous07

janefw said:


> BTW, if a child runs into the street, it's the parent's fault for not holding onto him/her. And if there is a hot drill nearby - move it.
> 
> When our kids were little, anything breakable, fragile or dangerous was placed out of their reach. Therefore they didn't need to be told NO NO NO NO all day long. It's just not rocket science at all.


Did your kids ever play in the front yard? 

I was one of 3 children. My brothers and I, along with the neighborhood kids, all played outside in the front yard, usually with one parent supervising. It was bound to happen that one would run into the street or do something stupid, as you can't baby each child 24/7, as it is just not possible(can't hold their hand through life). Kids get hurt and will do things they are not supposed to do. It's the parents job to discipline them as necessary. 

My young cousin ran into the street chasing a soccer ball and we had yelled for her to stop, but that doesn't always work. She got spanked for doing that and she didn't run into the street again after that incident. She would run to the curb and then stop, not going past that point.


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## hambone

janefw said:


> BTW, if a child runs into the street, it's the parent's fault for not holding onto him/her. And if there is a hot drill nearby - move it.
> 
> When our kids were little, anything breakable, fragile or dangerous was placed out of their reach. Therefore they didn't need to be told NO NO NO NO all day long. It's just not rocket science at all.


YES!!!


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## RoseAglow

hambone said:


> Way earlier in this thread, I gave the example of my child reaching to touch a hot drill bit... Everytime he reached out to touch it, I would tell, "NO... it's gonna bite you". (Bite=pain) Eventually he touched the bit and was burned. Now, what's the difference between me letting him touch the bit... and me spanking him before he touched the bit so he would associate pain with touching the bit? Would the spanking taught him the same lesson as touching the bit? Would he make the same association?


What is your goal? If your goal is to have your son avoid pain (from touching a hot bit), why would you apply pain beforehand? The end result is that your son feels pain- he doesn't avoid it either way.

In my eyes there is a big difference between the two associations: one is a natural consequence that teaches him to avoid sharp, hot items, and the other is a created consequence that teaches him that the applier causes pain, not the object. 

Is your goal to teach your child to obey you? You can do that without inflicting physical pain. It takes more time (minutes in a time out, vs a split section to smack) but it is very doable and it works.


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## hambone

RoseAglow said:


> What is your goal? If your goal is to have your son avoid pain (from touching a hot bit), why would you apply pain beforehand? The end result is that your son feels pain- he doesn't avoid it either way.
> 
> In my eyes there is a big difference between the two associations: one is a natural consequence that teaches him to avoid sharp, hot items, and the other is a created consequence that teaches him that the applier causes pain, not the object.
> 
> Is your goal to teach your child to obey you? You can do that without inflicting physical pain. It takes more time (minutes in a time out, vs a split section to smack) but it is very doable and it works.


That is EXACTLY the point I was trying to get to. 

Pain inflicted by a parent to teach the child a lesson doesn't work. That pain is not a natural consequence of the child's choices.

Pain inflicted by a parent is a choice the parent made. And what is the usual reason? Because that child is going to mind you one way or the other. 

Spanking turns situations into power struggles which breeds resentment and eventually disobedience. 

So, IMO, spanking is a shortcut that causes you more grief down the road.


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## RoseAglow

Anonymous07 said:


> Did your kids ever play in the front yard?
> 
> I was one of 3 children. My brothers and I, along with the neighborhood kids, all played outside in the front yard, usually with one parent supervising. It was bound to happen that one would run into the street or do something stupid, as you can't baby each child 24/7, as it is just not possible(can't hold their hand through life). Kids get hurt and will do things they are not supposed to do. It's the parents job to discipline them as necessary.


Agreed- it is the parents' job to provide discipline. 



> My young cousin ran into the street chasing a soccer ball and we had yelled for her to stop, but that doesn't always work. She got spanked for doing that and she didn't run into the street again after that incident. She would run to the curb and then stop, not going past that point.


Spanking is one method; it is just not the only one.

My young son has gotten loose in the parking lot once, when I lifted him out of his car seat and then he was just getting his running legs. I put him down and reached into the front seat, and he just naturally started to scoot away. That one was on me, he was very young. I caught him very quickly and let him know NO.

A month or two later, he was excited and started to run out into the street after a cat. I caught him quickly and immediately put in a time out, right on the sidewalk. I also started implementing the rule, "road or parking lot- we always hold hands!" Any time we step onto a road or a parking lot- which is twice every workday,Q at a minimum (drop off/pick up daycare) we sing out "Parking Lot! Road! Time to hold hands!"

It has been over a year now, and so far, he hasn't run out. He is two and a half now, so we have a long way to go- who knows, he might run out again. But he certainly has the rule down pat for now, he reminds ME when I get him out of the car seat and he stays put at the door until I take his hand,


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## Maricha75

janefw said:


> BTW, if a child runs into the street, it's the parent's fault for not holding onto him/her.


By all means, tell us how we can hold onto one child while getting another out of a car seat. Sorry, you can't cling to your child all the time. 

Oh, and I have spanked my kids a few times. Very, very rarely. Most often, I use other methods. Mine behave themselves everywhere. Very sweet dispositions. I get compliments on them all the time...at the store, at church, everywhere. 

But hey, if we're not going to spank the child for running off into the street, then perhaps we should just let them get hit? After all, they have to learn the lessons somehow, right? And spanking is never ok! (for those who don't understand sarcasm, that was it. I would never advocate for letting a child run into a street and get hit.)


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## janefw

Maricha75 said:


> By all means, tell us how we can hold onto one child while getting another out of a car seat. Sorry, you can't cling to your child all the time.
> 
> Oh, and I have spanked my kids a few times. Very, very rarely. Most often, I use other methods. Mine behave themselves everywhere. Very sweet dispositions. I get compliments on them all the time...at the store, at church, everywhere.
> 
> But hey, if we're not going to spank the child for running off into the street, then perhaps we should just let them get hit? After all, they have to learn the lessons somehow, right? And spanking is never ok! (for those who don't understand sarcasm, that was it. I would never advocate for letting a child run into a street and get hit.)


There are ways to deal with all situations. Why on earth would someone let a younger child be standing on the curb anyway? How do you think I handled three rambunctious boys? It just takes a little extra thought.


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## Bellavista

Oh, the self righteousness in here is beyond belief.

Let me just ask one question. Those parents who take credit for having turned out great kids; would you also take responsibility if they were not so great? Or would that just be their nature?


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## janefw

Anonymous07 said:


> Did your kids ever play in the front yard?
> 
> I was one of 3 children. My brothers and I, along with the neighborhood kids, all played outside in the front yard, usually with one parent supervising. It was bound to happen that one would run into the street or do something stupid, as you can't baby each child 24/7, as it is just not possible(can't hold their hand through life). Kids get hurt and will do things they are not supposed to do. It's the parents job to discipline them as necessary.
> 
> My young cousin ran into the street chasing a soccer ball and we had yelled for her to stop, but that doesn't always work. She got spanked for doing that and she didn't run into the street again after that incident. She would run to the curb and then stop, not going past that point.


My kids are disciplined. Just not with beatings. I read these things and I just think it must be a miracle that my kids survived, what with the tendency some kids have to "run into the street". Is that 'supervising' parent not paying attention then? Just took a nap?

It seems to me that most parents who hit their kids are hitting them for their (parental) failings.


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## janefw

Bellavista said:


> Oh, the self righteousness in here is beyond belief.
> 
> Let me just ask one question. Those parents who take credit for having turned out great kids; would you also take responsibility if they were not so great? Or would that just be their nature?


For me - I got great kids to begin with. Absolutely. But they aren't perfect, which was already stated. When they do screw up, we absolutely do look at the parental contribution. Did we not explain a rule? Did we not enforce it? Are they/he just being rebellious? It's all taken into consideration. I can totally accept where I have screwed up. I used to be a lot more controlling than I am now. I have learned to trust my kids as they have matured and give them looser reins.

As for the kids who aren't "great" - I remember when Supernanny came out, however long ago that was. My kids were much younger. My kids watched with disbelief while those kids spat on, hit, kicked and cursed at their parents. Those behaviors were never an option for my kids, and they knew it. Those behaviors are directly the fault of lazy, careless parents - the kind of parents which I have heard "begging" their kids to behave. It's pathetic. If my kids were like that - darn right it would be my fault. But they're not.


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## Maricha75

Oh FFS! One swat on the bottom is NOT the same thing as using a child as a punching bag! Get over yourselves!

FTR, I am not talking about letting your child stand on a curb. I am talking about getting your child in and out of a car at the store, in the parking lot. Kids can be told "stand right here" but guess what? Even the most well behaved kids will, on occasion, test the waters. And I'm sorry if you don't approve of my parenting style, but guess what? You don't have to. I've never had to "beg" my kids to behave. I've never had them spit on me, hit, kick, or curse at me. They have never done it, meaning nothing to discipline in that particular instance. 

My own kids don't run out like the above mentioned example. But my niece does. Guess what hasn't worked with her? The wonders of NOT spanking. Imagine that... a child who does NOT respond to these other methods. Such children DO exist, whether some of you wish to see it or not.Now, I have said I have spanked my kids on rare occasions. This is true. But contrary to what some self righteous people seem to think, spanking is NOT beating. I don't punch my kids. I don't toss them around like rag dolls. Get over yourselves.

I'm glad your methods worked FOR YOU. But they don't work for EVERYONE. My children behave, not because they are afraid of me, but because they love and respect me, even WITH the rare spankings.


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## unbelievable

The population has not quite doubled since 1960 but the juvenile crime disposition rate tripled between 1960-2010. That only counts the cases where a subject was identified and a cop decided to actually spend the hours necessary to fill out the paperwork and drag a kid to juvenile court. I've been doing the job 31 years and never saw a kid get anything resembling real punishment unless they got around to murdering someone. I imagine most other cops have noticed the same. I suspect the vast majority of known juvenile offender cases get handled by cops giving a street lecture and turning the kid over to a parent or by the cop just looking the other way and waiting for the kid to turn 18. If you saw a cop at a school in 1970, he was there to pick up his son or daughter. Now, they are assigned duty there to keep the little darlings from committing mass murders. A study that claims these little heathens are becoming more law-abiding and less violent is nonsense. If you were alive in 1960 or 1970, you recall meeting groups of juveniles on the street. Do you feel safer doing so today?


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## hambone

Maricha75 said:


> Oh FFS! One swat on the bottom is NOT the same thing as using a child as a punching bag! Get over yourselves!
> 
> FTR, I am not talking about letting your child stand on a curb. I am talking about getting your child in and out of a car at the store, in the parking lot. Kids can be told "stand right here" but guess what? Even the most well behaved kids will, on occasion, test the waters. And I'm sorry if you don't approve of my parenting style, but guess what? You don't have to. I've never had to "beg" my kids to behave. I've never had them spit on me, hit, kick, or curse at me. They have never done it, meaning nothing to discipline in that particular instance.
> 
> My own kids don't run out like the above mentioned example. But my niece does. Guess what hasn't worked with her? The wonders of NOT spanking. Imagine that... a child who does NOT respond to these other methods. Such children DO exist, whether some of you wish to see it or not.Now, I have said I have spanked my kids on rare occasions. This is true. But contrary to what some self righteous people seem to think, spanking is NOT beating. I don't punch my kids. I don't toss them around like rag dolls. Get over yourselves.
> 
> I'm glad your methods worked FOR YOU. But they don't work for EVERYONE. My children behave, not because they are afraid of me, but because they love and respect me, even WITH the rare spankings.


These people that spank are talking about inflicting enough pain so that the child associates the pain with the act and won't do it again.

If you aren't inflicting enough pain for them to teach them a lesson... what is the purpose?


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## BrockLanders

I reserve spankings for infractions that could lead to bodly harm. I also make sure to never spank out of anger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RoseAglow

Maricha75 said:


> Oh FFS! One swat on the bottom is NOT the same thing as using a child as a punching bag! Get over yourselves!
> 
> FTR, I am not talking about letting your child stand on a curb. I am talking about getting your child in and out of a car at the store, in the parking lot. Kids can be told "stand right here" but guess what? Even the most well behaved kids will, on occasion, test the waters. And I'm sorry if you don't approve of my parenting style, but guess what? You don't have to. I've never had to "beg" my kids to behave. I've never had them spit on me, hit, kick, or curse at me. They have never done it, meaning nothing to discipline in that particular instance.
> 
> My own kids don't run out like the above mentioned example. But my niece does. Guess what hasn't worked with her? The wonders of NOT spanking. Imagine that... a child who does NOT respond to these other methods. Such children DO exist, whether some of you wish to see it or not.Now, I have said I have spanked my kids on rare occasions. This is true. But contrary to what some self righteous people seem to think, spanking is NOT beating. I don't punch my kids. I don't toss them around like rag dolls. Get over yourselves.
> 
> I'm glad your methods worked FOR YOU. But they don't work for EVERYONE. My children behave, not because they are afraid of me, but because they love and respect me, even WITH the rare spankings.


Spanking is one way, but not the only way, as you've found in your own experience. Personally, I have nothing to "get over" regarding your parenting (or anyone else's, unless it goes into abuse.) 

The OP wanted to know who spanked and who didn't, and how it all turned out. Looks like it generated a good conversation!


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## Maricha75

hambone said:


> These people that spank are talking about inflicting enough pain so that the child associates the pain with the act and won't do it again.


"These people"? You mean "YOU PEOPLE" don't you? As I said. I have spanked. I will continue to do so. Call me a lazy parent if you like. Frankly, I don't care. It isn't beating, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not.


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## janefw

Exactly. There are ways to manage children that don't necessitate hitting them. In what other circumstances are people 'taught' by violence? It just doesn't happen.


----------



## Maricha75

RoseAglow said:


> *Spanking is one way, but not the only way, as you've found in your own experience.* Personally, I have nothing to "get over" regarding your parenting (or anyone else's, unless it goes into abuse.)
> 
> The OP wanted to know who spanked and who didn't, and how it all turned out. Looks like it generated a good conversation!


And NOT ONE of us who has spanked is saying it is the ONLY way. However, there are some who have implied that those of us who have done it on rare occasions (such as what BrockLanders mentioned) are lazy parents. No. LAZY parents are those who let their children get away with everything with NO discipline whatsoever. 

I am not saying YOU need to get over anything, RoseAglow. It was more directed at those who imply that I am a bad parent because of my choices... which are producing well behaved, sweet, kind, loving children.


----------



## waiwera

unbelievable said:


> waiwera,
> 
> There are people in my town who wouldn't break the law whether we had police or not. That doesn't mean police aren't needed or they should be disarmed. For every kid who doesn't require a spanking there is probably one who does. Folks have spanked kids since the first child was squeezed out and we're still here. That suggests greater and more durable success than the most recent 40 years of touchy-feely gobbledygook. Our juvenile delinquency rate has skyrocketed since academics decided they knew more about parenting than God or parents.


unbelieveable - I sure you're aware that many countries have laws against smacking, well over 30. Not many 3rd world countries are included in that list unsurprisingly...

I'm pretty sure Sweden was the first to ban smacking...back in the 1970's. The % of their population in jail is a tiny weeny compared to the US (70 per 100,000 compared to 716 per 100,00 for the US). These 70's, 80's, 90's children who are now in their 30-40's have not grown up to be a generation of delinquents ... yet they weren't smacked. 

Meanwhile in the US juvenile delinquency rates have soared while you have been smacking/spanking... so where is your logic? :scratchhead: 

If I recall the US has THE highest rate of incarceration globally (both by numbers and per capita). Touchy feely gobbledegook Sweden is way down the other end of the list.

BTW - when I say i don't smack don't confuse that with not disciplining. We have rules for our family, if rules are broken there are consequences... we just don't hit each other.


----------



## BrockLanders

Sweden has such a low incarceration rate because historically Sweden was populated by Swedes. They're now 15% non-Swedish and the Swedish men are giant manginas. Expect the numbers to change as they embrace the multikult.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hambone

Maricha75 said:


> "These people"? You mean "YOU PEOPLE" don't you? As I said. I have spanked. I will continue to do so. Call me a lazy parent if you like. Frankly, I don't care. It isn't beating, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not.


Easy. I'm talking about the people who self identified themselves as believing spanking is appropriate and are trying to justify it. It wasn't meant to be derogatory.

Are you saying that when you spank... no pain is inflicted? 

If no pain is inflicted... how does spanking correct behavior?

How does spanking teach the child a lesson? 


See, I don't believe in protecting my kids from all pain. I believe it should be self-inflicted. A direct consequences of their choices.

Pain teaches judgment. Pain is natures way of saying "Don't do that". But, it has to be natural pain.. Pain that is a direct consequences of their choices.

There is no connection between their choices and pain if it is artificially inflicted by a parent. That includes fussing and yelling at your kids..


----------



## waiwera

BrockLanders said:


> Sweden has such a low incarceration rate because historically Sweden was populated by Swedes. They're now 15% non-Swedish and the Swedish men are giant manginas. Expect the numbers to change as they embrace the multikult.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've known a few Swedes ( we are WWOOFer hosts) generally they're really lovely people. Hard working, clean and tidy with impeccable manners. Not met a Swedish 'mangina' yet though. Maybe it takes one to know one and me being a girl and all... 

But yes... globally crime is increasing...so I imagine Sweden will be no different.

Doubt they will catch up to the US in my lifetime though or even my children's lifetime. 

But who knows.


----------



## RoseAglow

Maricha75 said:


> And NOT ONE of us who has spanked is saying it is the ONLY way. However, there are some who have implied that those of us who have done it on rare occasions (such as what BrockLanders mentioned) are lazy parents. No. LAZY parents are those who let their children get away with everything with NO discipline whatsoever.
> 
> I am not saying YOU need to get over anything, RoseAglow. It was more directed at those who imply that I am a bad parent because of my choices... which are producing well behaved, sweet, kind, loving children.


Thanks- but as someone who did say earlier on that I believe spanking is "lazy parenting", I should clarify. I do not think that people who spank are lazy parents. I think that particular discipline method is a "lazy way" out, so I choose to do it differently. Kids who are spanked (not abused) generally turn out fine! In my eyes, it is not necessary, but it doesn't mean that people that spank are bad parents, they just use a different technique than I chose to use. With a different kid, maybe I would feel differently- I might feel differently with my kid later on, who knows? To each their own.

BTW, I have a zillion other "lazy parenting" techniques that I use regularly- as one quick example, I have my son watch nursery rhyme You Tube videos most mornings while we snuggle in bed so I can rest a little longer, which several of my non-TV friends find pretty sad! But I don't believe that I am a lazy parent. I would not want you or any other poster to read an implication into my phrasing of "lazy parenting".


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## BrockLanders

waiwera said:


> I've known a few Swedes ( we are WWOOFer hosts) generally they're really lovely people. Hard working, clean and tidy with impeccable manners. Not met a Swedish 'mangina' yet though. Maybe it takes one to know one and me being a girl and all...
> 
> But yes... globally crime is increasing...so I imagine Sweden will be no different.
> 
> Doubt they will catch up to the US in my lifetime though or even my children's lifetime.
> 
> But who knows.


There's entire areas of cities that the police and emergency personnel will not respond to because the inhabitants are hostile.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waiwera

BrockLanders said:


> There's entire areas of cities that the police and emergency personnel will not respond to because the inhabitants are hostile.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Where? In the US?

Yes... I see it on the news every night.


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## eyuop

The entire population of Sweden is around the same size as the State of New York. Of course there is going to be more news .

Anyway, we only occassionally spanked our kids. We did it in their early years (between 2 and 5). Spanking ment using a tiny switch that didn't really hurt that much and didn't leave a mark. It was only a one or two swat thing. It was very infrequent, and was usually for showing disrespect toward us or another, or throwing a fit.

It got results fast and we haven't needed to do this sort of thing for years. Our kids are very well behaved and delightful. They can barely remember being spanked.

In case you think we were lazy, we did a lot of other forms of training, not just spanking. But it was an option, and they knew it.


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## Woodchuck

Little deer, ....You said: I think it requires more effort to not spank, but has more benefits. And I don't want my children thinking violence is acceptable. 

Not only is violence acceptable, at times it is absolutely necessary....

Ask the 5 muggers that attacked me and my wife if I was violent....

I most certainly was, and on the verge of using DEADLY FORCE....

No one was harmed, but had I not been willing to resort to the ultimate violence, my wife and I might now be dead......

I do not want to raise a child so adverse to violence they can not or will not defend themselves...

I was a "wicked step father" raised my step son from when he was 18 mo....

At almost 50 he tells everyone he had an absolutely PERFECT childhood, and would be willing to lay down his life to protect me or his mother.....

He is a good man, with good values. I am proud to call him son. I think I spanked him 3 times....

the woodchuck


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## Woodchuck

hambone said:


> Easy. I'm talking about the people who self identified themselves as believing spanking is appropriate and are trying to justify it. It wasn't meant to be derogatory.
> 
> Are you saying that when you spank... no pain is inflicted?
> 
> If no pain is inflicted... how does spanking correct behavior?
> 
> *How does spanking teach the child a lesson? *
> 
> See, I don't believe in protecting my kids from all pain. I believe it should be self-inflicted. A direct consequences of their choices.
> 
> Pain teaches judgment. Pain is natures way of saying "Don't do that". But, it has to be natural pain.. Pain that is a direct consequences of their choices.
> 
> There is no connection between their choices and pain if it is artificially inflicted by a parent. That includes fussing and yelling at your kids..



It shows them immediately that there is a power greater then they are, and that power will extract retribution for mis deeds.......

I have seen many many youngsters who do not recognize any authority over them. 

My wife's best friend didn't spank her kids...The result was jail time, spousal abuse, and abandoning a grandson for her to raise.....

Her 10 yo grandson is being ruined, stole a gun and money uses her cc for video games, tortures animals just got out of 6 mo boot camp.....Next stop county jail or prison......

A family friend called him a future Ted Bundy....He has never been spanked..........

mean old woodchick


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## Sennik

EleGirl said:


> Spanking is not about beating up on a child. It's not 'whipping'.
> 
> It should be used as a last resort, when nothing else works. Spanking does not leave a mark.
> 
> If a child is old enough to mow the lawn, they are way to old for spanking to work.
> 
> I spanked my son a very few times.
> 
> Let a child suffer the consequences of his actions? Well, there are some consequences I'm just not willing to allow my child to experience. For example when he was 2 he thought it was funny to break away from me when I was putting him in the car and run out on to the street. I guess it was funny because it made his mommy very upset. You see people drove down our street like maniacs.
> 
> So I swatted him on the behind. It was not a beating or a whipping. It was a spank. It was also the last time he did that.
> 
> It's amazing that humans survived thousands of years of being raised by parents who spanked them. How did this happen without todays PC way of raising kids?


Well said.

Something to consider is that every child is different. There is no one type of discipline that works on everybody. You have to figure it out, and adjust as necessary through their development.

I have three kids, two sons (17 and 12) and a daughter (10). My eldest is pretty much mini me. I know what buttons to push to get him to comply. Never needed to spank, or even threaten to spank. He responds very well to 'reduced access to fun things'. So does my daughter. My younger son for his first five years needed a more heavy handed approach. He only every received two spankings, both similar to yours in that they were life threatening situations. Both never happened again and the simple *threat* of spankings kept him in line. Thankfully he has grown out of that stage and responds to other methods and is very well adjusted.

For me, I was only spanked *once* and that is all I needed. I was about 5 and was over at my aunts house who had just had her second child. It seems I thought it was a good idea to take a full can of Dermaplast and coat her toilet seat with it. Well when she went to use it she slid off. Next thing I know I was bent over the bed getting spanked hard by one of those metal hair brushes, the ones *without* the plastic tips on the end.

Ouch.


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## anotherguy

I never have, and never will hit my kids. I believe there are infinitely better, more producting and educational ways to handle discipline. Hitting kids says far - far more, and teaches far far more about how to handle conflict, than simply getting a warm bottom.

I have pretty strong feeings on the matter - most of which is plainly and harshly critical - but thats all I'll say I guess.

Our kids are 9 & 7 still young. Great kids. By the time you get to the point of needing to hit your kids - you are doing something wrong. And if you think beating the ted bundy out of your kid is a solution - you are already failing - and miserably.


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## lovely2011

I, for one, don't spank my child at all times. When he is being very bad and he chooses not to listen any other way I spank him and dang well he listens to me. No he doesn't ball his eyes out in agony, he lets out a little cry and runs off, only to find him playing with something he can ACTUALLY play with. I don't rely on spanking to teach him everything but I rely on it when he no longer wants to listen.


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## eyuop

anotherguy said:


> I never have, and never will hit my kids. I believe there are infinitely better, more producting and educational ways to handle discipline. Hitting kids says far - far more, and teaches far far more about how to handle conflict, than simply getting a warm bottom.
> 
> I have pretty strong feeings on the matter - most of which is plainly and harshly critical - but thats all I'll say I guess.
> 
> Our kids are 9 & 7 still young. Great kids. By the time you get to the point of needing to hit your kids - you are doing something wrong. And if you think beating the ted bundy out of your kid is a solution - you are already failing - and miserably.


Were you spanked? And did you resent it? Just wondering.


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## hambone

Woodchuck said:


> Little deer, ....You said: I think it requires more effort to not spank, but has more benefits. And I don't want my children thinking violence is acceptable.
> 
> Not only is violence acceptable, at times it is absolutely necessary....
> 
> Ask the 5 muggers that attacked me and my wife if I was violent....
> 
> I most certainly was, and on the verge of using DEADLY FORCE....
> 
> No one was harmed, but had I not been willing to resort to the ultimate violence, my wife and I might now be dead......
> 
> I do not want to raise a child so adverse to violence they can not or will not defend themselves...
> 
> I was a "wicked step father" raised my step son from when he was 18 mo....
> 
> At almost 50 he tells everyone he had an absolutely PERFECT childhood, and would be willing to lay down his life to protect me or his mother.....
> 
> He is a good man, with good values. I am proud to call him son. I think I spanked him 3 times....
> 
> the woodchuck


Woodchuck... You're absolutely right that there is a time for violence. But, those times are extremely rare. You don't want your child to think violence is the normal way to resolve conflicts. 

When you spank a child... it changes the nature of the conflict. It's no longer about the merits.. the pros and cons of the child's choice. It is transformed to, "You are going to do what I tell you to do... or I'm gonna inflict pain on you!!!" 

Now, when someone takes that attitude with you.. "Do it my way or I'm gonna whip your arse". Does that make you want to cooperate? Or does that breed resentment and disobedience within you?

Spanking a child... imposing your will upon through violence.. builds resentment.. The child just becomes more determined to exercise their free will. They become determined to do just the exact opposite of what you want them to do... Just to prove to you that they can!

I'm glad you step son turned out well. But, did you not go through that period of disrespect? Where he rebelled against you? 

I prefer to talk to my kids. Ask them questions to try to lead them around to the correct choice. If they make a wrong choice... "Well, this is going to be a learning experience". And when their choice bites them in the butt... they have to figure out how to fix the problem. And I will advise them on how I"d handle it. Some times they listen... sometimes they don't but when they don't listen and mess up.. I find that it greatly improves their hearing. That is how you allow children to build judgment. 

I try to deal with my kids the same way I deal with other people. With respect.


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## Theseus

hambone said:


> When you spank a child... it changes the nature of the conflict. It's no longer about the merits.. the pros and cons of the child's choice. It is transformed to, "You are going to do what I tell you to do... or I'm gonna inflict pain on you!!!"



And how is that different from any other kind of punishment??



"You are going to do what I tell you to do... or I'm giving you a time-out!!!"

"You are going to do what I tell you to do... or I'm sending you to your room!!!"

"You are going to do what I tell you to do... or I'm going to take your allowance!!!"

Not much difference, in principle.

Some people argue spanking is different, because if you did it to an adult it would be assault and illegal. Well, using the examples above, instead it would be felonious restraint, kidnapping, and/or theft, and they would be illegal as well. So that argument doesn't wash.

Another way to look at it: were kids better behaved before the 1970s when spanking started to wane or after? I'm willing to bet they were overall better behaved before.

My wife and I have VERY rarely spanked, I could probably count the times on one hand. But I think of it like nuclear weapons; you never want to use them, but it's good to have it in your arsenal, just in case.


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## hambone

Theseus said:


> And how is that different from any other kind of punishment??
> 
> 
> 
> "You are going to do what I tell you to do... or I'm giving you a time-out!!!"
> 
> "You are going to do what I tell you to do... or I'm sending you to your room!!!"
> 
> "You are going to do what I tell you to do... or I'm going to take your allowance!!!"
> 
> Not much difference, in principle.
> 
> Some people argue spanking is different, because if you did it to an adult it would be assault and illegal. Well, using the examples above, instead it would be felonious restraint, kidnapping, and/or theft, and they would be illegal as well. So that argument doesn't wash.
> 
> Another way to look at it: were kids better behaved before the 1970s when spanking started to wane or after? I'm willing to bet they were overall better behaved before.
> 
> My wife and I have VERY rarely spanked, I could probably count the times on one hand. But I think of it like nuclear weapons; you never want to use them, but it's good to have it in your arsenal, just in case.


You are correct. I don't believe in artificial punisments. 

The child's punishment should be the direct consequence of their choices...

When my children were little and I asked them to stop doing something... and they asked "why".. If I couldn't think of a legitimate reason... if all I had was "because I said so"... I tell them.. Aw.. go ahead!!!


Artificial punishments breed resentment and rebellion.


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## Woodchuck

anotherguy said:


> I never have, and never will hit my kids. I believe there are infinitely better, more producting and educational ways to handle discipline. Hitting kids says far - far more, and teaches far far more about how to handle conflict, than simply getting a warm bottom.
> 
> I have pretty strong feeings on the matter - most of which is plainly and harshly critical - but thats all I'll say I guess.
> 
> Our kids are 9 & 7 still young. Great kids. By the time you get to the point of needing to hit your kids - you are doing something wrong. And if you think beating the ted bundy out of your kid is a solution - you are already failing - and miserably.


Your attitude is biased by children who are willing to accept authority....Some WILL not, and then HARSH terms are necessary. 

When my 3 yo step son saw baby aspirin on the night stand in his brothers bedroom, he ate the whole bottle....A trip to the hospital, stomach pump, very scary experience....My first impulse when we got home was a spanking....His mother said the hospital trip was enough punishment....Not spanking him almost cost his life......

Three months later, he got up early, climbed
up the kitchen counter, found the hidden bottle, and again ingested the whole bottle....Then he hid the empty bottle......

Within minutes of waking up, my wife found the hidden bottle, and once again we rushed to the hospital....Stomach pump, etc. the whole deal....On the way home my wife asked me to spank him....I did...No more aspirin problem.....

He met his biological father one time when he was 10...He told him "You're not my dad, my dad is at home".....

It is not always that simple. As a teen I had lots of long talks about growing up issues, and education...

He is an intelligent person, who is polite and well mannered, but strong willed, and if he has set his mind on something, it is almost impossible to get him to see the other side.....

He was on the wrong path in his life, and I had a long talk with him about how society views people by their long term conduct, and that you must walk the walk in order to earn respect....That life lesson took hold and he is now a manager in a steel plant....He says he had perfect parents and the best possible childhood......

My wife has on several occasions met people who knew our son. Without knowing she was his mother, they always speak of him as a wonderful, generous, and respectful human being......

Years ago a drunk driver crossed the center line and hit his car head on....It took 40 minutes to extract him from the wreckage. When he found the other driver was a former co-worker, he attended his funeral, and stood over the casket with tears in his eyes.......

the woodchuck


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## Woodchuck

HAMBONE........Your quote..When you spank a child... it changes the nature of the conflict. It's no longer about the merits.. the pros and cons of the child's choice. It is transformed to, "You are going to do what I tell you to do... or I'm gonna inflict pain on you!!!" 

Do you not encounter situations every day where you want to do something and do not because a higher authority will inflict some sort of "pain" on you.........Smoking in public buildings...seat belt laws...speeding....income tax.....YADA YADA YADA...

You are forced to do things you do not want to do because a higher authority INSISTS you do so.......

Sometimes a defiant child needs to know there is such an authority....I have seen too many that have never been taught that lesson.....They are generally referred to in a public setting as: THE DEFENDANT....


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## moogvo

Having read ONLY the initial question and none of the replies, My advice is to evaluate any punishment on a case by case basis. Many parents spank at every opportunity. I don't think this is healthy. My mother-in-law has several times told me that "I need to start popping my kids". When I asked what they did, she told me that they hadn't done anything, but it is necessary to establish who is in charge.

She is a bully and enjoys picking fights with people that she can easily overpower.

I don't spank my kids unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary and as a last resort. Otherwise, the only message you send is "I'm bigger than you and I can hurt you." 

That's my .02.


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## unbelievable

As a cop, I have many tools available to me to influence behavior. I can smile, I can frown, talk nicely, talk firmly..all the way up to calling in the National Guard. The option that's appropriate is the least one that still gets the compliance I need in the time frame I need it. Logic works for some, a grin and "aw shucks" works on some, persuasion works on others, Tasers work on most, my Glock works on just about everyone. Kids aren't all that different. If you start early with them, a stern look is all that's required most of the time. A logical explanation works if they're old enough and sharp enough (and you have the luxury of time). There are occasions where spanking works best. In those rare occasions, do it, don't talk about it. Do it like you mean it but not like you're out of control. Following a reasonable recovery period for the kid following any punishment, an after-action-review is great to make sure the kid knows which of their choices led to their punishment, how they can make better choices in the future, and to let the kid know the matter is over and they are starting over with a clean slate.


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## moogvo

unbelievable said:


> As a cop, I have many tools available to me to influence behavior. I can smile, I can frown, talk nicely, talk firmly..all the way up to calling in the National Guard. The option that's appropriate is the least one that still gets the compliance I need in the time frame I need it. Logic works for some, a grin and "aw shucks" works on some, persuasion works on others, Tasers work on most, my Glock works on just about everyone. Kids aren't all that different. If you start early with them, a stern look is all that's required most of the time. A logical explanation works if they're old enough and sharp enough (and you have the luxury of time). There are occasions where spanking works best. In those rare occasions, do it, don't talk about it. Do it like you mean it but not like you're out of control. Following a reasonable recovery period for the kid following any punishment, an after-action-review is great to make sure the kid knows which of their choices led to their punishment, how they can make better choices in the future, and to let the kid know the matter is over and they are starting over with a clean slate.


And most importantly, perhaps is that you love them and it wasn't personal...

ALSO... NEVER spank in the heat of anger!!! take a minute to calm down if need be.


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## anonim

I got this said:


> One size fits all is nonsense. You cant take anecdotal evidence of experience with two children and assume it works the same for the other several billion. I was spanked and Im not violent nor do I put my hands on others so get a grip.
> 
> My wife was spanked and she is one of the most delightful, kind hearted, warmest people on the planet earth. She is about as far from violent as one can get.
> *
> Indians think dancing around a fire making silly noises makes it rain but thats all bullzhit too.*


^^

No different from praying i suppose.


----------



## hambone

Woodchuck said:


> HAMBONE........Your quote..When you spank a child... it changes the nature of the conflict. It's no longer about the merits.. the pros and cons of the child's choice. It is transformed to, "You are going to do what I tell you to do... or I'm gonna inflict pain on you!!!"
> 
> Do you not encounter situations every day where you want to do something and do not because a higher authority will inflict some sort of "pain" on you.........Smoking in public buildings...seat belt laws...speeding....income tax.....YADA YADA YADA...
> 
> You are forced to do things you do not want to do because a higher authority INSISTS you do so.......
> 
> Sometimes a defiant child needs to know there is such an authority....I have seen too many that have never been taught that lesson.....They are generally referred to in a public setting as: THE DEFENDANT....


We're talking about the pros and cons of a parent spanking their child. 

If the child breaks a law... then they should suffer the consequences of their choices. But, if you'll notice. The cop who catches your child breaking the law doesn't jerk off his belt or billy club and give your child a few whacks on the heine before letting them go...

Return the library book a day late.. does the librarian give the kid a good whack?

Bottom line, spanking your child puts you in an adversarial relationship with your child. It becomes a power struggle that you cannot win in the end.


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## Wiserforit

hambone said:


> Bottom line, spanking your child puts you in an adversarial relationship with your child. It becomes a power struggle that you cannot win in the end.


The same can be said for ANY discipline. Hypocrisy. Billions of people worldwide prove this "can't win power struggle" is complete B.S. 

Opponents of spanking also like to use words like "hit", which in my case would crush them. I can break through a stack of five cement blocks if I want to "hit" something.


----------



## hambone

Wiserforit said:


> The same can be said for ANY discipline. Hypocrisy. Billions of people worldwide prove this "can't win power struggle" is complete B.S.
> 
> Opponents of spanking also like to use words like "hit", which in my case would crush them. I can break through a stack of five cement blocks if I want to "hit" something.


I don't believe in artificial discipline. Let the kid suffer the natural consequence of their behavior. 

Do you think that, in the end, you can win a power struggle with your kid? In the first place, why would you want to even get into a power struggle with your kid? When you child grows up... and is bigger than you are... Or, your 65 and he's 40... You really want to get into a physical confrontation with you kid? sooner or later... you will lose the power struggle. In the mean time, you kid is doing the exact opposite of what you tell them to do. How beneficial is that? 

If the purpose of a spanking is not to inflict pain... what is the purpose?


----------



## Wiserforit

hambone said:


> I don't believe in artificial discipline. Let the kid suffer the natural consequence of their behavior.


This is common, but as a principle that cannot cover the infinity of situations that occur in life. 



> Do you think that, in the end, you can win a power struggle with your kid? In the first place, why would you want to even get into a power struggle with your kid?


Why would you pose such a stupid framing? You can't be taken seriously. You seem oblivious to thousands of years' human history, billions of normal parent/child relationships that you categorize as dysfunctional. 




> When you child grows up... and is bigger than you are... Or, your 65 and he's 40... You really want to get into a physical confrontation with you kid? sooner or later... you will lose the power struggle. In the mean time, you kid is doing the exact opposite of what you tell them to do. How beneficial is that?
> 
> If the purpose of a spanking is not to inflict pain... what is the purpose?


I started the kids in MMA training at two years old. I've coached 26 state champions in wrestling, and about a dozen black belts in Tae Kwon Do and Judo. 

These kids should be able to defeat me in full contact fighting in their mid to late teens. I'll be in my late 60's. 

The kids punch me in the face pretty regularly. You can go ahead and make up some silly framing about that too and how awful it is. 

Please do. This should be fun.


----------



## hambone

Wiserforit said:


> This is common, but as a principle that cannot cover the infinity of situations that occur in life.
> 
> 
> Why would you pose such a stupid framing? You can't be taken seriously. You seem oblivious to thousands of years' human history, billions of normal parent/child relationships that you categorize as dysfunctional.
> 
> 
> I started the kids in MMA training at two years old. I've coached 26 state champions in wrestling, and about a dozen black belts in Tae Kwon Do and Judo.
> 
> These kids should be able to defeat me in full contact fighting in their mid to late teens. I'll be in my late 60's.
> 
> The kids punch me in the face pretty regularly. You can go ahead and make up some silly framing about that too and how awful it is.
> 
> Please do. This should be fun.


I managed to work through the infinity of situations that occur in life without having to resort to spanking my kids. Nor have they been grounded or had privileges taking away from them. Granted it's a lot quicker to just spank them or tell them how it's going to be or else!!! It's just not necessary. I don't fight with my kids. 

Man, you jump to personal insults awfully quick. Do you do that in your personal relationships with co-workers? 

Sounds like you might have written the book, "Winning through intimidation". 

I asked a question... Do you think you can win a power struggle with your child? Do you still bully your children? Do you still hit them? Or threaten them with violence? Do you MAKE them submit to your will? 

If so, how much longer do you intend to do that?


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## Holland

I agree with you hambone. Ex and I do not, have never smacked our kids, it just is not necessary. Natural consequences work well but we do at times take away or limit privileges.

With the teenager it is simple, if he is doing the wrong thing or won't do what has been asked of him I say "just remember that when you want me to do X for you or drive you to the party on the weekend that I will remember this behaviour and decide accordingly if I will do X for you...."

We talk a lot with the kids and have spent a lot of time teaching them right v's wrong, good v's poor behaviour. We have raised them to have a lot of pride in who they are and how they function in society and at home. 

As for smacking IMO it is a negative action that has no place in parenting.


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## hambone

Holland said:


> I agree with you hambone. Ex and I do not, have never smacked our kids, it just is not necessary. Natural consequences work well but we do at times take away or limit privileges.
> 
> With the teenager it is simple, if he is doing the wrong thing or won't do what has been asked of him I say "just remember that when you want me to do X for you or drive you to the party on the weekend that I will remember this behaviour and decide accordingly if I will do X for you...."
> 
> We talk a lot with the kids and have spent a lot of time teaching them right v's wrong, good v's poor behaviour. We have raised them to have a lot of pride in who they are and how they function in society and at home.
> 
> 
> 
> As for smacking IMO it is a negative action that has no place in parenting.


I used bribery as well... I'd say... "Hey guys... ya'll want to go do/see XYZ?.... well, we gotta get this yard raked before we can go!"

I remember one time.... I told my son he had to get the yard raked before we went to the ball game Sat. He waited until Friday after noon.... and it rained. He missed that ball game BUT, it really improved his promptness. 

So many parents mess up by threatening their children... and when the child fails to meet expectations. they let it slide but.. "Next time...I gonna.... yada yada". And next time.. 

well bottom line.. they keep raising the threat level and anger level and punishment... but they never carry out... they just threaten more aggressively.

Remember Italian Philosophe Baccaria... It's not the severity of the punishment... it's the certainty!!!

The big advantage of doing it this way... Our kids have never pulled away from us to prove their independence. Our kids LOVE to come home... and they bring all their friends. Always been that way. Our house is the Ohau... the gathering spot.


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## hambone

How old are your kids Holland?

Mine are 17 and 20.


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## Holland

mine are 16 and 11. They have their moments, far from perfect angels but overall they are fantastic kids and we are very proud of them. Both have an innate understanding of natural justice, they are compassionate and caring kids.


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## Maricha75

My kids, too, are very compassionate and caring. They will share with anyone. Very helpful, very bright. They are very friendly as well. Well behaved everywhere we go. They are quiet in church, and even anywhere else which requires silence. They are also very affectionate, playful, etc. And yet, I HAVE spanked them each at least once. I can count one one hand how many times I have spanked them. And no, it is NOT 5. 

My only point is that whether or not you spank your child does not necessarily determine what kind of person he or she will grow up to become.


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## hambone

Maricha75 said:


> My kids, too, are very compassionate and caring. They will share with anyone. Very helpful, very bright. They are very friendly as well. Well behaved everywhere we go. They are quiet in church, and even anywhere else which requires silence. They are also very affectionate, playful, etc. And yet, I HAVE spanked them each at least once. I can count one one hand how many times I have spanked them. And no, it is NOT 5.
> 
> My only point is that whether or not you spank your child does not necessarily determine what kind of person he or she will grow up to become.


How old are our kids?


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## Maricha75

hambone said:


> How old are our kids?


You mean mine? Mine are 12, 6, and 4. My sisters' kids are 15, 12, and 5. Again, same thing with their kids as with mine....except the 5 year old. NOTHING has worked with her. Not letting her learn the consequences for herself, not giving time outs, nothing. But the older two (my other sister's kids) are well behaved... again, same as my own kids.


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## Holland

I agree Maricha, just showing that it is indeed possible to raise children without smacking them. 

As for a general view, smacking is very much not the norm where I live, it is not considered an acceptable way to parent.


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## hambone

Maricha75 said:


> You mean mine? Mine are 12, 6, and 4. My sisters' kids are 15, 12, and 5. Again, same thing with their kids as with mine....except the 5 year old. NOTHING has worked with her. Not letting her learn the consequences for herself, not giving time outs, nothing. But the older two (my other sister's kids) are well behaved... again, same as my own kids.


Yeah, I meant your. I'm dyslexic. 

I hope you are having as much fun raising your kids as I did raising mine. If I could, I'd start over and do it all again. I retired when my kids were 9 and 7. So, I had the opportunity to spend a lot of time with my kids... and I did! 

Your just heading into the toughest part. Those teenage years... when the kids are trying to exert their independence. 

My son was a breeze. 

My daughter was a bigger challenge. My daughter is pretty, great personality, straight A's etc. and a lot of girls just felt the need to take her down a notch. She played soccer all the way up. Having a girl in sports is a great way to keep them focused on school (and off boys, and other bad influences). BUT, the key is that Dad has got to be interested. If dad doesn't care.. she'll quit. Another thing I did that seemed to help was to send her text like, "I luv U". Mostly just let her download every afternoon after school. 

I hope you are not offended. Just trying to pass along what helped me... Good luck. Make lots of memories. They will be grown in a blink of an eye.


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## Wiserforit

hambone said:


> Man, you jump to personal insults awfully quick. Do you do that in your personal relationships with co-workers?


More hypocrisy.  Where, exactly, was the personal insult? Point that out - 

You've been busy framing over half the population of the globe, since the beginning of time, as child abusers. 

So it is pretty clear to me that you are the same with your children, using emotional manipulation with them just like this. 





> I managed to work through the infinity of situations that occur in life without having to resort to spanking my kids. Nor have they been grounded or had privileges taking away from them. Granted it's a lot quicker to just spank them or tell them how it's going to be or else!!! It's just not necessary. I don't fight with my kids.


*yawn*

I read peer reviewed science for guidance, not anonymous internet posters, especially when they are so manipulative in their rhetoric. 




> I asked a question... Do you think you can win a power struggle with your child? Do you still bully your children? Do you still hit them? Or threaten them with violence? Do you MAKE them submit to your will?
> 
> If so, how much longer do you intend to do that?


Heh. This silly notion of yours is obviously extremely important to you: framing billions of people, both corporal and non-corporal discipline advocates as engaged in permanent power struggles with their children. 

Look at you trying to bully and demand I answer nonsensical loaded questions - there is little doubt you have used such abusive emotional manipulation on your children, which is worse than corporal punishment.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

No and they trust me.
My kids have always come to me for everything, all problems and questions and concerns. I don't even yell.
I have one grown adult child and two younger ones.
Discipline is a process, not an act.


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## GTdad

Spanking is one of the tools in our toolkit, but one that we only rarely need to use.

But when it's necessary, spanking is absolutely effective.


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## hambone

Wiserforit said:


> More hypocrisy.  Where, exactly, was the personal insult? Point that out -
> 
> You've been busy framing over half the population of the globe, since the beginning of time, as child abusers.
> 
> So it is pretty clear to me that you are the same with your children, using emotional manipulation with them just like this.
> 
> 
> *yawn*
> 
> I read peer reviewed science for guidance, not anonymous internet posters, especially when they are so manipulative in their rhetoric.
> 
> 
> Heh. This silly notion of yours is obviously extremely important to you: framing billions of people, both corporal and non-corporal discipline advocates as engaged in permanent power struggles with their children.
> 
> Look at you trying to bully and demand I answer nonsensical loaded questions - there is little doubt you have used such abusive emotional manipulation on your children, which is worse than corporal punishment.



Wow... Dude, you are hypersensitive to perceived threats to your authority!

Some times.. a question is just a question... As in, trying to gather more information so you can reach a better understanding of what someone is saying!

Take a deep breath.


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## OhGeesh

Very little spanking I can count it on 1 hand for 4 kids!! All I can say is there is no template all children are different. While your children are a reflection of you they also are not a reflection of you. I see parents live vicariously through their kids all the time and it irks me to no end!

I know families with kids that 2-3 turned out great nary a problem and yet 1 tons of problems. I have friends that had nothing growing up that are Doctors now and I have friends who had parents that were Doctors and they are still lost at 35. 

All we can do is Love, communication, TIME with your kids, investing in them is what matters. They will grow up, they will become adults, they may become christians, muslims, or athiests. They may do or not do what you approve only time will tell! They may be very successful monetarilly or they may not. All we can do as parents is guide, instill, love, and support them until they are adults.

Generally I find spanking is hardly ever needed and is always a last resort! Like I said 4 kids and a handful of spankings over 20 years.


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## Laila8

My kids are still really little, but I don't plan on spanking them. I feel like there are better ways to discipline and get their attention. And it seems hypocritical to teach them not to hit, but then to spank them.


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## ToothFairy

I never understood how parents can spank, smack, flick or whip and then demand, and try to teach their kids "not to hit others". This is such a double standard. You cannot hit dogs or other adults or its called assault. Yet, we think its okay to hit/spank our children. It is counterintuitive and counterproductive.

I especially get frustrated and angry with the churches who like to quote the Bible.. "spare the rod , spoil the child". 

PEOPLE.. this is a METAPHORE for guidance. Have you seen any shepherds that beat the crap out the their little lambs with a wooden rod?? Come on.!


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## Holland

Royal Australasian College of Physicians wants smacking of children outlawed | News.com.au[/URL]



> CHILD health experts in Australia have called for the smacking of kids and other physical punishments to be completely outlawed.
> The medicos from the Royal Australasian College of Physicians (RACP) want legal defences for the use of such discipline to be scrapped.
> Children should be protected from assault, just as adults were, they claimed in a statement released today.
> Associate Professor Susan Moloney, President of the RACP’s Paediatrics & Child Health Division, also called for better support for parents and caregivers to educate them about the potential harmful effects of physical punishment and other violence on children.
> *“Research is increasingly showing that physical punishment may be harmful and children who receive physical punishment are at increased risk for a range of adverse outcomes both in childhood and as adults,” Associate Professor Moloney said.
> ...................................
> “These include mental health problems such as depression, anxiety, aggressive or antisocial behaviour, substance use problems and abuse of their own children or spouse.*
> “While many children will not experience negative outcomes as a result of moderate or reasonable physical punishment, why put your child’s future health and emotional wellbeing at risk?”
> Professor Kim Oates, Fellow of the RACP’s Paediatrics & Child Health Division and Emeritus Professor of Paediatrics and Child Health, University of Sydney, said there are more effective ways to discipline children.
> 
> 
> Read more: No Cookies | Perth Now..........


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## mablenc

ToothFairy said:


> I never understood how parents can spank, smack, flick or whip and then demand, and try to teach their kids "not to hit others". This is such a double standard. You cannot hit dogs or other adults or its called assault. Yet, we think its okay to hit/spank our children. It is counterintuitive and counterproductive.
> 
> I especially get frustrated and angry with the churches who like to quote the Bible.. "spare the rod , spoil the child".
> 
> PEOPLE.. this is a METAPHORE for guidance. Have you seen any shepherds that beat the crap out the their little lambs with a wooden rod?? Come on.!


Same goes with hitting them so they can stop crying, that one was a popular one at my old church.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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