# Sex (or lack of) Breaking Point?



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

This is something I thought would be good to get different perspectives on since obviously the topic of sex can be greatly varied from person to person. Do you have a breaking point where lack of sex in a relationship would become a deal breaker for you? Or maybe you did end a relationship over this, and if so, was it mostly b/c of sex or was it sex combined with other issues?

What got me thinking about this was a couple of things. In the past few weeks I have seen in several threads where a TAM'er had posted that they had been in a sexless relationship (in some cases for years) and although from the tone of their message they didn't appear happy about it they seemed to have just accepted it as is. Also, I was talking to a friend of mine where lack of sex had been a hot topic for him with his wife. Last time i talked to him he seemed like he had almost given up and just accepted this is how it was going to be. 

I know it is easy to just say get out of the relationship if your needs aren't being met, but in many cases it is a lot more complicated than that (kids, finances, the thought of being alone, sex robot hasn't been delivered yet, etc...). In the case of my friend I believe the lack of sex is more a symptom of other issues in their marriage, but then again, what the **** do I know :grin2:

One positive post (as a guy) I did see another female member here make was that she did realize after a while that she needed to take some accountability and make some changes with herself to help get her sex life with her H back on track. I only bring this up since I know myself and many others have had this bs concept of "Happy Wife Happy Life" pushed on us, so seeing someone post that there is a shared responsibility in making a relationship work (whether it be sex or other) is refreshing.

For me personally, I don't really know what my breaking point would be. Not too long ago I felt like I was possibly heading in that direction where I finally accepted that it wasn't selfish to want an active sex life. Since then things have been heading in the right direction although still a work in progress.


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## happy2gether (Dec 6, 2015)

Sex is an integral part of our marriage, but if it stop for medical reasons I would not hold that against my wife. If it stopped because she just suddenly decided she no longer liked it, then I may have an issue. I can't say for sure, as I have not been put in that situation yet for any period longer than a week or two.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

H2G - agreed regarding health reasons as I do believe in the whole "in sickness and in health" pledge I made.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

A sexless first marriage is the root cause that led to my leaving - she pulled a classic bait and switch on me. Lack of sex then created additional problems that grew worse over the years, until I reached a breaking point. If I'd had back then the resources available now (Google, sites like this), I'd probably have left years earlier.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

I have not ended a relationship over lack of sex, but I would do it if there were no legitimate (medical) reason for it. If all I wanted was a roommate, I wouldn't have gotten married.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

ha, ha!!!!

i remember that guy! i used to watch him early Saturday mornings. quite the artiste! don't remember his name, but it was sure fun and very
hypnotic watching him create a beautiful landscape from a blank canvas in like 1/2 an hour.

to your question: sex was never that important to me, because i was a bachelor for many years and did without sex (except with myself. who was that comedian
who made those hilarious stand up comedy like 'sex with myself is better because.... i don't complain to myself', et?).

even if i wasn't a bachelor all those years, i think sex would be like number 4 or 5 on my list. now don't get me wrong, i love sex. since the last ten years or
so that i started dating again and having sex, i have learned to love it. it's very important. but again, after (1) character/personality (2) fidelity (3) looks).
as an example, i had a long term girlfriend who i had great sex with for about a year and a half. but suddenly because of her cheating (i didn't know until much later),
and mistakes, she cut sex off from me and claimed to hate sex (even though she claimed before i gave her the best sex she ever had) (i know, maybe she said that to all the guys).

she cut me off, and i wasn't sure why at the time but i continued to date her. i did love her, and making out was almost as good as sex, so i continued until i found out about her cheating (i suspected before but was in denial).

i personally would not leave a relationship where sex was the only issue. however, having said that usually where sex IS an issue (other than medical) there are very 
probably other issues that are deal breakers.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jorgegene said:


> ha, ha!!!!
> 
> i remember that guy! i used to watch him early Saturday mornings. quite the artiste! don't remember his name, but it was sure fun and very
> hypnotic watching him create a beautiful landscape from a blank canvas in like 1/2 an hour.


The immortal Bob Ross :grin2:


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

I was the LD in a mismatched marriage. We weren't sexless, it was mostly weekly duty sex. I ended the marriage... Sex was a factor in that decision, but there were many other factors involved.

Ultimately, his attitude toward sex (and the resulting mismatch) was just a symptom of the real problem that ended our marriage. He treated me as if my purpose was to serve him and his needs, and he treated my needs as an inconvenience.


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## Spitfire (Jun 6, 2015)

Lack of sex isn't a deal breaker for me. Now that I've detached from my wife I've found that I really have no desire for it anymore. It wasn't long ago that it was eating me up trying everything to re-connect. For a short time things got better but they returned to her normal after a few weeks. Now she'll try to initiate once every couple of weeks and I'll use one of her old excuses to put a stop to it. The other night when she went to bed she said "It's cold in here". I said "I'll turn up the thermostat" and chuckled to myself.


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

Each person has a different breaking point or acceptance point and as life goes on with age you react differently than you would earlier in life. For me I am married to a wonderful, caring, pretty, good wife who could careless about sex, romance,kissing,hugging, She has very little desire for sex. I believe she love's me. But she lacks sexual desire. Sure she enjoys a kiss, to be cuddled, to be held . But she lacks the desire for Orgasm. Its not important to her. We have what is called chore sex once a week. Its ok if you like starfish sex. I complain about it cause it just is not fulfilling . Sure its a release of tension. And at times better than nothing. But this is all the women as to offer . This is who she is and in a relationship its easier to change yourself than someone else. Yes am bitter about it and rather offended but it is what it is.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Sex is the way you find out if you have other issues and if they can be fixed. All the sex in the world can't fix fundamental problems in a marriage but it can obscure many of them for a while.


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

We are now about 8 months into a sex hiatus that was originally supposed to only last a month or two. We talk about it periodically and my wife is unfortunately in no real hurry to start up again. We started this because we both realized that the sex had deteriorated from ok to lame and we knew something was off that needed to be addressed. I have done a lot of personal growth work over the past 8 months and have realized that a lot of the problems were my own doing even though I had been blaming my wife for deteriorating libido and lack of interest in anything other than the most robotic missionary you could imagine. I'm glad I figured out the issues before it was too late and have completely revamped my mindset about sex and relationships. But now my wife has settled into such a good rhythm where we are having plenty of fun together without her feeling the burden of having to have sex with me like she used to. I understand where she's coming from but I'm not willing to have this become the new status quo so something is eventually going to have to give. I strongly believe that women are every bit as sexual as men and at some point she is going to awaken from her extended hibernation and want to be sexual again so I am patiently biding my time, getting my belief system rebooted so that I can be a much better lover to her when we start up again. If we didn't have such a strong relationship outside the bedroom and great overall family life with our kids, I would not be able to stomach the thought of a sexless marriage. But I am just stubborn enough to believe that she will come around.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

As someone who after a lot of years of marriage went from a sex starved marriage to a sexless marriage and who would have divorced my wife, it wasn't the lack of sex by itself. Seriously, I survived many years on sex once a month or every other month. It was the active disrespect and emotional damage that my wife would inflict on me and never feeling close to her for any length of time, that brought me to the brink of divorce.

It came down to determining that I deserved better and was worthy of the love of a woman who cared about me.

Luckily, I fixed myself, did 180's to change the way my wife treated me. Made her feel loved and cherished to the point that she changed how she felt about me. Then with the help of a great sex therapist be negotiated compromises that have helped rebuild our marriage and sex life.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

My breaking point finally arrived after 20 years of steadily decreasing frequency. 

The only way I made it as long as I did is because she was a good mate in all other way, our children, and a steadfast determination to fix the problem.

In the last year I have come to the realization that there is no improving this, the kids are grown and nearly grown, and it is time to move on. I wish I could remember who said this, so I could attribute the quote, but "our marriage has come to its natural end."


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Copper Top
After reading your previous posts, you are doing the correct thing by leaving. No doubt at all about it. 




CopperTop said:


> My breaking point finally arrived after 20 years of steadily decreasing frequency.
> 
> The only way I made it as long as I did is because she was a good mate in all other way, our children, and a steadfast determination to fix the problem.
> 
> In the last year I have come to the realization that there is no improving this, the kids are grown and nearly grown, and it is time to move on. I wish I could remember who said this, so I could attribute the quote, but "our marriage has come to its natural end."


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> My breaking point finally arrived after 20 years of steadily decreasing frequency.
> 
> The only way I made it as long as I did is because she was a good mate in all other way, our children, and a steadfast determination to fix the problem.
> 
> In the last year I have come to the realization that there is no improving this, the kids are grown and nearly grown, and it is time to move on. I wish I could remember who said this, so I could attribute the quote, but "our marriage has come to its natural end."


I wonder how many people are simply waiting for the kids to get old enough or out of the house before taking it more seriously ending the relationship/marriage? I would imagine kids are a huge factor in staying with someone even though you are possibly unhappy or have unmet needs, so I can only imagine if you take the kids out of the equation AND on top of that without the kids now it is just YOU TWO living alone, it could really make for an unhappy environment.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

GoodFunLife said:


> We are now about 8 months into a sex hiatus that was originally supposed to only last a month or two. We talk about it periodically and my wife is unfortunately in no real hurry to start up again. We started this because we both realized that the sex had deteriorated from ok to lame and we knew something was off that needed to be addressed. I have done a lot of personal growth work over the past 8 months and have realized that a lot of the problems were my own doing even though I had been blaming my wife for deteriorating libido and lack of interest in anything other than the most robotic missionary you could imagine. I'm glad I figured out the issues before it was too late and have completely revamped my mindset about sex and relationships. * But now my wife has settled into such a good rhythm where we are having plenty of fun together without her feeling the burden of having to have sex with me like she used to.* I understand where she's coming from but I'm not willing to have this become the new status quo so something is eventually going to have to give. I strongly believe that women are every bit as sexual as men and at some point she is going to awaken from her extended hibernation and want to be sexual again so I am patiently biding my time, getting my belief system rebooted so that I can be a much better lover to her when we start up again. If we didn't have such a strong relationship outside the bedroom and great overall family life with our kids, I would not be able to stomach the thought of a sexless marriage. But I am just stubborn enough to believe that she will come around.


Why should she come around? She is getting exactly what she wants without having to put out.

Yes, women are every bit as sexual as men, but they are more selective in whom they want to be sexual with.

In your wife's case, the bad news is: *it's not you*.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I wonder how many people are simply waiting for the kids to get old enough or out of the house before taking it more seriously ending the relationship/marriage? I would imagine kids are a huge factor in staying with someone even though you are possibly unhappy or have unmet needs, so I can only imagine if you take the kids out of the equation AND on top of that without the kids now it is just YOU TWO living alone, it could really make for an unhappy environment.


It has been my pigheaded refusal giving up, and my kids, that have kept me in the marriage. I suspect a lot of people stay for "the kids." That was the biggest factor in my decision to stay as long as I have. 

Now the kids are old enough, and I had an epiphany of a sort, so I have finally decided to throw in the towel.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Lack of sex to my first ex wife lead me to a new career. >


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

GoodFunLife said:


> We are now about 8 months into a sex hiatus that was originally supposed to only last a month or two. We talk about it periodically and my wife is unfortunately in no real hurry to start up again. We started this because we both realized that the sex had deteriorated from ok to lame and we knew something was off that needed to be addressed. I have done a lot of personal growth work over the past 8 months and have realized that a lot of the problems were my own doing even though I had been blaming my wife for deteriorating libido and lack of interest in anything other than the most robotic missionary you could imagine. I'm glad I figured out the issues before it was too late and have completely revamped my mindset about sex and relationships. But now my wife has settled into such a good rhythm where we are having plenty of fun together without her feeling the burden of having to have sex with me like she used to. I understand where she's coming from but I'm not willing to have this become the new status quo so something is eventually going to have to give. I strongly believe that women are every bit as sexual as men and at some point she is going to awaken from her extended hibernation and want to be sexual again so I am patiently biding my time, getting my belief system rebooted so that I can be a much better lover to her when we start up again. * If we didn't have such a strong relationship outside the bedroom and great overall family life with our kids, I would not be able to stomach the thought of a sexless marriage.* But I am just stubborn enough to believe that she will come around.


The longest I have gone is a little over a year. However, in fairness that does cover 1-2 months prior to my wife giving birth and some time after where we were unable to do anything. What I found was that with each kid, the time before we would finally start having sex again would go longer (after the first kid I would say probably a few weeks after getting the ok from the dr we started up, second kid maybe 4+ month after having the kid, and the 3rd was 10+ months after). It eventually got to the point (maybe similar to you) where it was more a chore, get it done, check it off the list, and then revisit in a month, lame and not all that enthusiastic. I actually preferred if we did not do anything, not that I didn't want to, but I found having sex knowing that it would be another month before we did so again just left me more frustrated. My wife also knows that I become very distant/detached from her without sex, so I don't know if her initiating after a month had gone by was more a way to reel me back in. We were getting to the point where I would consider rock bottom when we finally talked about everything, and since things have definitely been better in terms of the quality of sex, as far as quantity we have had some bright spots but it is still a work in progress. The bolded part of your post in particular is what helped me/us get through this. If we didn't have a strong marriage my posts would probably be drastically different lol.

Curious though, what makes you think your wife will "awaken"? What do you think will change the "burden" feeling for her? If she is getting all the perks of the marriage without having to address the issue of sex, what motivation is there for her to change?


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

GoodFunLife said:


> But now my wife has settled into such a good rhythm where we are having plenty of fun together without her feeling the burden of having to have sex with me like she used to. I understand where she's coming from but I'm not willing to have this become the new status quo so something is eventually going to have to give. I strongly believe that women are every bit as sexual as men and at some point she is going to awaken from her extended hibernation and want to be sexual again so I am patiently biding my time, getting my belief system rebooted so that I can be a much better lover to her when we start up again. If we didn't have such a strong relationship outside the bedroom and great overall family life with our kids, I would not be able to stomach the thought of a sexless marriage. But I am just stubborn enough to believe that she will come around.


Are you just sitting there waiting for her to offer sex? Why would she do that? Maybe she thinks YOU had an awakening and realized you don't need it, since you seem to be happy enough without it.

Have you had an actual discussion about when and how to end the sex hiatus?

Women in general are every bit as sexual as men. But some specific women (and men) are not very sexual, and need a little extra motivation.


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## Spitfire (Jun 6, 2015)

Waiting for the kids to get out of high school. Might not make it that long.


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## where_are_we (May 24, 2013)

I hit my breaking point at about year 4 of limited crappy sex. I was considering leaving the last 2 years.

When he started ignoring me outside of the bedroom too that's when the crap started hitting the fan. I opened my eyes and found out he was getting his needs met elsewhere. Then I had no reason to stay married to him, it was easy. I should have ended it after the first year of him shutting down on me and spared myself the knowledge of his true crappy self.


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

Absolutely, Unequivocally. Without any doubt. How is this even a question?
Lack of sex for any significant length of time (couple weeks max?) without some obvious reason would be a deal breaker. Of course, I am HD and therefore I regularly initiate sex with my LD wife. And if I were getting like 10 "NO!"s in a row, I would certainly have an amicable serious talk with her about our sexlife, where I would come to some understanding about her position on us maintaining a regular sex life. And this is really a binary decision: either we AGREE on some mutually enjoyable sex life, or we do NOT. And why would I stay married to somebody who doesn't love me enough to want to meet my legitimate and normal sexual needs? Why would I stay faithful?

Remind me: why is this even a question?


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

I'm one of those that's been in a sexless marriage for years and have come to accept it (don't like it, but it's our normal). My wife compares sex to work, and has talked about how she likes it that I don't bug her for sex like her ex did (which she did oblige him for, but strictly as her wifely duty). Also agree that lack of sex can be the symptom of other issues in a marriage. 

I do recall the female poster that Ellis mentioned (I won't name her), but she realized that while she wasn't entirely to blame, she did understand that she was part of the problem. What she described was eerily similar to our marriage - she would get mad at her husband for minor things, and instead of standing up to her he would just take it and try to do things perfectly so she wouldn't get mad. This was just like us - wife would get furious over stupid things, and instead of standing up to her I would just take it, which was the wrong move. That takes a toll on a relationship, let alone a sex life. 

Funny thing is that we got physical on our first date - if I compare then to now, I would swear that I'm with a different woman. Kids are a big part of this (we have nobody that we can dump them off on overnight, unlike a lot of people that we know), but part of it is like Married but Happy - bait and switch. 

Also factor in that in a lot of cases, LD people have LD friends - they hear their friends mention that they don't like sex and rarely have sex with their spouse, and this leads them to think that this is the norm. I know in our case my wife has several friends that don't have sex with their husbands, and I know this makes her think that people our age with kids just don't have sex.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

After our split, a few IC counsellors told me the only real thing my ex wife and I had in common was sex. She never had discussions with me over serious issues...she avoided that. Never was intimate ( pillow talk, genuine feelings or discussions about how she felt ).

She took me home the night I met her, and we had sex. When it was over, she asked if she wanted to drive me home. I said no, I want to spend the night...I did. We married. Had great sex, for 9 years, until about 6 months before she left...we had none in this time...but the only closeness we had was sex...nothing else. I don't even think I was loved. That was our only commonality.

When ALL you have is sex, the marriage is most likely doomed. She could never initiate or engage in a serious conversation...ever. She laughed or said she was stressed, too tired, etc. when I tried to bring up things that bothered me.

The day I had her on the couch telling her I knew she screwed my best friend, she got up, turned and said, "and to think I was going to have sex with you right now." Stupid me...I put her against the wall and kissed her heavily...then we had sex. Yep...stupid me. She escaped her being put in the hotseat by my allure of hysterical bonding...

Bottom line...it's really all we had, and when she began refusing and not initiating, we were done...but probably because she was fvcking someone else...


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

technovelist you may well be right; she may never come around. My belief, however, is that since my poor behavior (not enough masculine leadership, not making her feel properly respected and appreciated, making her feel like she owed me sex ...) was a primary cause of her attraction fading, my improved behavior can spark her sexual interest in me to awaken. We both got to the point where the lame sex we were having was less enjoyable than no sex so we decided to pause. She knows I'm not interested in a long term sexless marriage and I know that deep down she has very strong sexual feelings that she doesn't want to have kept under wraps forever. As tommyr said - either we are going to agree on a plan for a mutually enjoyable sex life or we're not. If she is really not interested in a romantic/sexual relationship with me after I have taken full responsibility for my previous shortcomings and made pretty significant changes in my behavior, then I will make my decision accordingly about whether this is the type of relationship I want to be in for the next 10/20/30 years. I think she has been feeling free and empowered for the past 8 months but at some point I think she will come to realize that there's a better kind of freedom and empowerment that comes with having incredibly fulfilling sex with the man you love. I have initiated a few times after fun nights out together but each time she has resisted - frustrating to see her withdraw when we get to bed after hours of quality time and playful fun together but I understand she's not ready yet. As I said before, if our relationship outside the bedroom and our overall family life were not so extraordinarily good, I would be much more pessimistic about this working out.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

GoodFunLife said:


> technovelist you may well be right; she may never come around. My belief, however, is that since my poor behavior (not enough masculine leadership, not making her feel properly respected and appreciated, making her feel like she owed me sex ...) was a primary cause of her attraction fading, my improved behavior can spark her sexual interest in me to awaken. We both got to the point where the lame sex we were having was less enjoyable than no sex so we decided to pause. She knows I'm not interested in a long term sexless marriage and I know that deep down she has very strong sexual feelings that she doesn't want to have kept under wraps forever. As tommyr said - either we are going to agree on a plan for a mutually enjoyable sex life or we're not. If she is really not interested in a romantic/sexual relationship with me after I have taken full responsibility for my previous shortcomings and made pretty significant changes in my behavior, then I will make my decision accordingly about whether this is the type of relationship I want to be in for the next 10/20/30 years. I think she has been feeling free and empowered for the past 8 months but at some point I think she will come to realize that there's a better kind of freedom and empowerment that comes with having incredibly fulfilling sex with the man you love. * I have initiated a few times after fun nights out together but each time she has resisted - frustrating to see her withdraw when we get to bed after hours of quality time and playful fun together but I understand she's not ready yet.* As I said before, if our relationship outside the bedroom and our overall family life were not so extraordinarily good, I would be much more pessimistic about this working out.


I don't quite get the bolded, so she has decided that it is ok to reject you? IDK, it just sounds like you have all the accountability in making this work and she has all the control, doesn't seem very fair and balanced if you ask me. I mean, you mentioned that the current 8 month hiatus was originally supposed to be only 1 or 2 months, that is a rather drastic "delay". I don't see a lot of masculine leadership in this tbh. I truly hope this works out for you, something just does't add up from what you are saying/hoping against your wife's actions.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

There is relief in your future. After several years of being serially turned down and shoved away by my wife, something magical has happened in my life. She used to be the sexiest woman on earth. Now, she is no longer even female. She is a dependent, someone who lives with me and consumes what I earn. She could be replaced by a dude, a nun, or my sister or brother and my life would not change even slightly. It's not tons of fun living a sexless existence but in other ways it's quite liberating. Positively zero reason to ever jump through even one more flaming hoop. Once you rip that silly veneer of sex off marriage, you get to clearly see it as the exploitative arrangement it is, was, and always will be.


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## mrsray2197 (Dec 10, 2015)

Our marriage ended up in this situation. However we were both lacking where each others needs were not being met. He was always working, constantly, never wanted to go anywhere or do anything, never had a true conversation with me for year, there is a lot more to an intimate relationship that just sex. If that's all you have you have nothing.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

I absolutely feel like there is a breaking point. I guess I'm not as strong as the others, but at about 3 weeks of no intimacy; lots of stuff starts falling apart. I should mention that this is usually about 5 rain checks worth. I tend to become less patient and start to get resentful. She notices it, and usually suggests we just "do it". So just a little effort from her and we get to restart the timer. 

I'm not sure the breaking point always comes on due to a timeline. Sometimes just getting a rain check when something was planned or having her say something disrespectful can do it as well. 

If nothing else, I'm realizing that I need the intimacy in our relationship.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

I think to many times the HD misses the warning signs and let's the LD slide to long. No sex on honeymoon, huge red flag. Excuses to not have sex on a consistent basis, really bad. I think you have to draw a line in the sand pretty quick and have a serious conversation about what you won't accept. The more you let slide the more you let slide. The more the LD gets to avoid, the more they avoid. The HD waits patiently for in to improve and it normally goes downhill.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

I'm in a sexless marriage due to my husbands physical ailments (ED, diabetes, fatigue and back pain). I won't reach my breaking point because he has physical reasons for not desiring sex often. He isn't just rejecting me because he has no desire. I'm not feeling resentment. We are intimate in other ways every day and our marriage in great besides this. The most frustrating part is that we only have sex when he wants to and feels the best when is on Sunday mornings (once or twice a month). If I initiate say on a Saturday night (because I prefer to have sex at night) then he will say I'm tired and lets do it Sunday morning and if he isn't feeling good that Sunday morning then will usually do it Sunday night. Could he try harder than just saying he is tired? Yes he could and probably should. I don't press the issue because he is sensitive about it.

I read a couple of sexless marriage forums and most people post that they initially stay because they have children, they don't believe in divorce, they love their spouse, financial reasons, everything else in the marriage is great and they are optimistic things will change. Most of the time things don't change and resentment comes into play, and you loose you connection with your spouse and become roommates. Once that happens then odds are the marriage isn't going to last even if the spouse suddenly desire to have sex. They usually aren't into it and is just having it to keep the spouse from leaving. The divorce rate is high.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

tornado said:


> I think to many times the HD misses the warning signs and let's the LD slide to long. No sex on honeymoon, huge red flag. Excuses to not have sex on a consistent basis, really bad. I think you have to draw a line in the sand pretty quick and have a serious conversation about what you won't accept. The more you let slide the more you let slide. The more the LD gets to avoid, the more they avoid. The HD waits patiently for in to improve and it normally goes downhill.


I think you're 100% correct. And then add in this dynamic and you have my marriage, though the time between sex was measured in months and years, not weeks:



lessthennone said:


> I absolutely feel like there is a breaking point. I guess I'm not as strong as the others, but at about 3 weeks of no intimacy; lots of stuff starts falling apart. I should mention that this is usually about 5 rain checks worth. I tend to become less patient and start to get resentful. She notices it, and usually suggests we just "do it". *So just a little effort from her and we get to restart the timer.*


Before we had kids I didn't understand that dynamic for the first few years and was quite confused by it. She had been very sexual with me before we were married. And she had a colorful sexual history before me. So I knew she was a sexual person, just now not in our marriage. I thought I must have done something or be doing something to turn her off. I blamed myself rather than understand there was something wrong within her (which I found out 29 years later to be child sex abuse). And then she'd dish up a hot night and I'd think things were going back to normal. A week later I'd initiate again and she'd say yes. But after that the rejections and excuses would start up again and continue until she felt she had better do something or I might be pushed past my limit.

As someone stated, having kids changed everything for me. I was not willing to just leave. That was my biggest mistake, making divorce not an option. There is no power to change anything if there is no real consequence which can be applied.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

Thor said:


> I think you're 100% correct. And then add in this dynamic and you have my marriage, though the time between sex was measured in months and years, not weeks:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Most people won't change unless that have no choice. Women know that most men won't leave their children, you add to that most people would be financially sunk if they divorce and they don't see a real threat. I also think that most HDs are more eager to please their spouse (probably to spark sexual interest) but LDs don't seem to mind that their spouse is sexually miserable. That might be the hardest thing to accept.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

tornado said:


> I also think that most HDs are more eager to please their spouse (probably to spark sexual interest) but LDs don't seem to mind that their spouse is sexually miserable. That might be the hardest thing to accept.


In discussing sex with my wife about 4 years ago, she said she thought for men sex was simply a "need to spurt it out". That's a direct quote, too. She didn't understand or recognize that there was any emotional distress involved. She didn't see how there could be any sexual misery, either, because if I needed to spurt it out I could just go take care of myself and be fine.

I'm not sure I would call my wife LD. She certainly wasn't while we were dating or when she was dating others. She was just LD within the marriage.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

lessthennone said:


> So just a little effort from her and we get to restart the timer.
> 
> If nothing else, I'm realizing that I need the intimacy in our relationship.





Spitfire said:


> Lack of sex isn't a deal breaker for me. Now that I've detached from my wife I've found that I really have no desire for it anymore. It wasn't long ago that it was eating me up trying everything to re-connect


I've already seen what some of what i would have written several times. While i was still trying frantically to reconnect, he seemed to enjoy declining. When we would have sex once in 3-4 weeks, resetting the timer is a great analogy.

Now, I've detached. I can't bring myself to care that we aren't having sex anymore. It's been a few months. He really hates it, because he's been controlling/withholding for years, and he hates that i moved into another room. I told him i needed my own space if were were in a SSM. He still said no to sex. Even though i can tell it bothers him, it hasn't changed his behavior at all. No affection at all, asking if i want to fvck out of nowhere once every 6 weeks or so, no build up. I guess it was fine for him to say no, but not me.

What kept me in the marriage was the kids and my concerns with them and joint custody, but also his control. He controlled all the money, even what i made on my own. Then when i would sneak some of mine away, he stopped letting me work. He would b**** about me not working to me and everyone we knew, but he wouldn't let me go on interviews and he would move us every year so that i would have to quit. When i would work, he would try to sabotage me so i would be late, or fall asleep watching the kids and make me worry, or call incessantly. I'm the frugal one, he blocks me in part so that i will not see how much he wastes. (bars, clothes, eating out, weed etc.

We're separating now. I want a divorce, but he won't go for it and is still blocking my access to any and all money. I don't have a bank card, he took it and moved all the money into an account with only his name on it. He keeps "forgetting" to have me added to the new account. I'll probably have to wait until we are separated to go back to work and then file.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

Thor said:


> In discussing sex with my wife about 4 years ago, she said she thought for men sex was simply a "need to spurt it out". That's a direct quote, too. She didn't understand or recognize that there was any emotional distress involved. She didn't see how there could be any sexual misery, either, because if I needed to spurt it out I could just go take care of myself and be fine.
> 
> I'm not sure I would call my wife LD. She certainly wasn't while we were dating or when she was dating others. She was just LD within the marriage.



I think that most young women believe that to get a man you have to "give it up" or he will "date someone who will". So out of a feeling of necessity that are more sexual. Then once married they feel no need to "act the part". What's most surprising is women never unlearn the "boys just want a orgasm". It's so much more that just physical release.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Thor said:


> I think you're 100% correct. And then add in this dynamic and you have my marriage, though the time between sex was measured in months and years, not weeks:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds very familiar. Dare I ask how you the two of you are doing?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

ChargingCharlie said:


> I'm one of those that's been in a sexless marriage for years and have come to accept it (don't like it, but it's our normal). * My wife compares sex to work, and has talked about how she likes it that I don't bug her for sex like her ex did (which she did oblige him for, but strictly as her wifely duty). * Also agree that lack of sex can be the symptom of other issues in a marriage.
> 
> I do recall the female poster that Ellis mentioned (I won't name her), but she realized that while she wasn't entirely to blame, she did understand that she was part of the problem. What she described was eerily similar to our marriage - she would get mad at her husband for minor things, and instead of standing up to her he would just take it and try to do things perfectly so she wouldn't get mad. This was just like us - wife would get furious over stupid things, and instead of standing up to her I would just take it, which was the wrong move. That takes a toll on a relationship, let alone a sex life.
> 
> ...


So for the bolded part, did you not know that about your W prior to getting married (so it was all systems go before marriage, and then after marriage suddenly it was work and she didn't want to relive what it was like with her ex)? Guessing that is part of why you feel there was a bait and switch? This may in part tie in to what @tornado mentioned where you freely give it up to get from point A to point B, but once you are at point B it is no longer necessary.

Also, i can relate with the kids and not being able to dump them off overnight (much more difficult as well when you have multiple children vs. just one).


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

sixty-eight said:


> We're separating now. I want a divorce, but he won't go for it and is still blocking my access to any and all money. I don't have a bank card, he took it and moved all the money into an account with only his name on it. He keeps "forgetting" to have me added to the new account. I'll probably have to wait until we are separated to go back to work and then file.


This sound eerily similar to a family friend who is going through a divorce now. She is pushing for a divorce and he is doing everything in his power to block it or make it as unpleasant as possible. Somehow he even managed to have money in one of her bank accounts (under her name only from what she told me) moved out to his account (guessing he probably did it online with her username/password). I told her in that case she needs to call the cops b/c what he did was illegal.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Thor said:


> In discussing sex with my wife about 4 years ago, she said she thought for men sex was simply a *"need to spurt it out"*. That's a direct quote, too. She didn't understand or recognize that there was any emotional distress involved. She didn't see how there could be any sexual misery, either, because if I needed to spurt it out I could just go take care of myself and be fine.
> 
> I'm not sure I would call my wife LD. She certainly wasn't while we were dating or when she was dating others. She was just LD within the marriage.


I've been guilty of that same thinking in the past myself. It wasn't until she decided to plan our Thanksgiving dinner during sex that I realized there was no passion. 

"Do you like stuffing?" "Oh yeah!"..." Wait you're talking about Thanksgiving dinner?"


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

I have lived in and have accepted a sexless marriage. BUT it was a horrible journey getting here, not what I expected out of marriage and I don't recommend it. Years of sexlessness has caused damage that can't be repaired and I no longer interested in making the effort. But there are many other considerations. 

If you had asked me before I was married, I would have said I would never have stayed in a sexless marriage, but that turned out not to be true and I bet it is also true of many of those who are in sexually compatible marriages that insist they would leave.

However, even though I stayed I fully understand those who decide to leave and would recommend it to those early in a relationship without kids. 

I deeply dislike the "sex is a symptom" approach because it can be self-fulfilling. For the low drive partner, of course it is a huge temptation to find blame elsewhere. It sounds much better to say a lack of desire is related to either violence in the Middle East, my mother-in-law is a pain or my spouse doesn't squeeze the tooth paste tube properly than saying it is "my issue" and it is a legitimate issue on its own right. No marriage is ever perfect is you want to go on a issue hunt you will find something but that doesn't automatically make it the cause, solution or symptom of a sex problem.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> This sound eerily similar to a family friend who is going through a divorce now. She is pushing for a divorce and he is doing everything in his power to block it or make it as unpleasant as possible. Somehow he even managed to have money in one of her bank accounts (under her name only from what she told me) moved out to his account (guessing he probably did it online with her username/password). I told her in that case she needs to call the cops b/c what he did was illegal.


mine would never be so blatant. Manipulation makes everything much more foggy. He didn't take my bank card, in his words he lost his and needs mine. Then he says he wants to move us to a credit union. After he moves the money, he's happy to give back the card for the now empty account. Then he "forgets" to have me put on the new account for several months. He "really means to get me a card as soon as possible". He keeps the checkbook in his glovebox, and is never home. or he tells me that we're out of checks, and he needs to order more (lies).

When i was sneaking/saving cash from my own paycheck, he simply would invent a crisis. "i can't pay the mortgage this month, do you have any money?" and see if i'd be gullible enough to pull whatever i had stashed out. Or he'd do stuff, like not want to buy the children school clothes, and wait to see what i'd come up with.

Last month it was, "i can't pay the rent" so he took a check my parents had sent me for my birthday and cashed it. During this time, he went shopping for himself (clothes) several times, hid empty fast food bags in the garage trash cans, and had plenty of weed and cigarettes.

When confronted he yells and throws a fit, says that things will change but actually does nothing, or gaslights and says that i'm crazy, no way he's doing all those things. What an imagination i have.

he always said no divorce before, but now that i don't want sex anymore, he's all impatient for separate residence. He said the other day, that he hopes that we can still work on our finances/debts as a family after the split. Meaning, he basically wants me to have the children full time, work, and pay him spousal support. lol.

Your friend might be able to get somewhere with him stealing her money, especially if it was only her name on the account. If she wants divorce, those bank records might be a helpful thing to print out/save.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

sixty-eight said:


> mine would never be so blatant. Manipulation makes everything much more foggy. He didn't take my bank card, in his words he lost his and needs mine. Then he says he wants to move us to a credit union. After he moves the money, he's happy to give back the card for the now empty account. Then he "forgets" to have me put on the new account for several months. He "really means to get me a card as soon as possible". He keeps the checkbook in his glovebox, and is never home. or he tells me that we're out of checks, and he needs to order more (lies).
> 
> When i was sneaking/saving cash from my own paycheck, he simply would invent a crisis. "i can't pay the mortgage this month, do you have any money?" and see if i'd be gullible enough to pull whatever i had stashed out. Or he'd do stuff, like not want to buy the children school clothes, and wait to see what i'd come up with.
> 
> ...


uggghhhh ... sounds like a real winner if you don't mind me saying ...

Real sorry you have had to deal with this, hopefully it comes to a conclusion soon.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> So for the bolded part, did you not know that about your W prior to getting married (so it was all systems go before marriage, and then after marriage suddenly it was work and she didn't want to relive what it was like with her ex)? Guessing that is part of why you feel there was a bait and switch? This may in part tie in to what @tornado mentioned where you freely give it up to get from point A to point B, but once you are at point B it is no longer necessary.
> 
> Also, i can relate with the kids and not being able to dump them off overnight (much more difficult as well when you have multiple children vs. just one).


Nope - on our first date we ended up in her car making out with my hands going up her dress. Ended up at her place fooling around. Had lots of sex, showered together, etc. Great wedding night sex. After the wedding, the frequency declined (although we still did it, just not really often), then in the past five years we've had sex four times. Tornado is correct IMO - you give it up to get your target, then when the target is in your web, you don't have to pretend that you like it anymore. He's also correct in that she knows that I won't leave the kids, nor do I want to put my business partners through a divorce (meaning having our business finances subject to a court hearing). 

My wife sounds like Thor's - sexual before the marriage (and even during part of the marriage), and now just thinks that it's a way for guys to get off. As I stated in another post, it doesn't help when she has LD friends who tell her that they never have sex - this leads her to think that this is how it's supposed to be. 

Regarding kids, it's rough when you can't just dump them off. Grandparents are all out of town and too old anyway, and we have no other family around. We have friends that have a child a few years older than ours, and they're always able to dump him off on a relative and head out of town for a couple of days or just have a night to themselves. We've had exactly one night by ourselves in the house since we've had the kids.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> uggghhhh ... sounds like a real winner if you don't mind me saying ...
> 
> Real sorry you have had to deal with this, hopefully it comes to a conclusion soon.


hahahah
yeah, he's quite a prize. I'm gonna be dragging him around like an anchor for several years, i'm sure of it. 

I was on the phone with him mom yesterday, and she's all, "well, he told me that y'all were having some problems. i hope you can reconcile. He told me that you don't go to church anymore " OMG.

He has nothing to complain about, so he told her that we haven't been going to church. He complained, made fun of me, and said it was worthless that we went for 6 years, and then when he moved us away from our church and we stopped going, he tattled to his mom that i was turning the kids into heathens. 

The kicker? He never goes to church at all, always schedules himself to work on sun mornings. He's special.
:rofl:


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

tornado said:


> I think that most young women believe that to get a man you have to "give it up" or he will "date someone who will". So out of a feeling of necessity that are more sexual. Then once married they feel no need to "act the part". What's most surprising is women never unlearn the "boys just want a orgasm". It's so much more that just physical release.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


this is what happened to me. he acted the way he thought i wanted him to until we were married, declined slowly for a little after, then sharp drop off after we bought a house.

and then it was like he'd done what he needed to do to catch me, and now i was caught. 

When i wanted sex after that or if i'd request a diversion from missionary, he would give me a look like i was trying to lure him in my panel van to see a puppy. like i was some kind of pervert at 1x a week.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

sixty-eight said:


> this is what happened to me. he acted the way he thought i wanted him to until we were married, declined slowly for a little after, then sharp drop off after we bought a house.
> 
> and then it was like he'd done what he needed to do to catch me, and now i was caught.
> 
> When i wanted sex after that or if i'd request a diversion from missionary, he would give me a look like i was trying to lure him in my panel van to see a puppy. like i was some kind of pervert at 1x a week.



If we just get the LDs to marry LDs and the sex freaks with their kind we could solve most marriage problems. I've always wondered how a person could think their married spouse could be a freak for wanting sex with them. Isn't that part of marriage and being a couple. Being looked at as dirty for suggesting something is a bad feeling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

tornado said:


> If we just get the LDs to marry LDs and the sex freaks with their kind we could solve most marriage problems. I've always wondered how a person could think their married spouse could be a freak for wanting sex with them. Isn't that part of marriage and being a couple. Being looked at as dirty for suggesting something is a bad feeling.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i guess if they can make the HD feel like a freak for wanting sex, then it's a preemptive strike. No one can then accuse them for being a freak for not wanting sex, without feeling like it's just an empty vindictive retaliation.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

tornado said:


> If we just get the LDs to marry LDs and the sex freaks with their kind we could solve most marriage problems. I've always wondered how a person could think their married spouse could be a freak for wanting sex with them. Isn't that part of marriage and being a couple. Being looked at as dirty for suggesting something is a bad feeling.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The problem is, how do you get an LD to admit they are an LD if they know they have to act as an HD during the courting phase to get their future H/W? Maybe a lie detector test, dunk tank, etc... to weed them out???


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> The problem is, how do you get an LD to admit they are an LD if they know they have to act as an HD during the courting phase to get their future H/W? Maybe a lie detector test, dunk tank, etc... to weed them out???


i have no idea. 

Never get married? (lol )

I've seen someone (Maybe Richardsharpe?, i can't remember) suggest that their enthusiasm to give oral is a good indicator. It's hard for LD's to fake loving it, most can barely tolerate it in the courtship phase, and drop it almost entirely after that.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

sixty-eight said:


> i have no idea.
> 
> Never get married? (lol )
> 
> I've seen someone (Maybe Richardsharpe?, i can't remember) suggest that their enthusiasm to give oral is a good indicator. It's hard for LD's to fake loving it, most can barely tolerate it in the courtship phase, and drop it almost entirely after that.


So you are saying administer an "oral" exam, I like the way you think >


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Even if there was a test, it wouldn't help with situational LD. Some HD spouses can't or won't see their role in the issue. Even a true LD might be more willing to try please a partner that keeps them truly happy.

My XH is absolutely positive that I just don't like sex, and that I'm not a very sexual person. He refused to believe that my drive was related to the way he treated me outside of the bedroom, because it just didn't work that way for him. And he used the idea that I wasn't sexual to explain away my lack of enthusiasm.

It turns out I really do like sex, just not sex with him.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

sixty-eight said:


> i have no idea.
> 
> Never get married? (lol )
> 
> I've seen someone (Maybe Richardsharpe?, i can't remember) suggest that their enthusiasm to give oral is a good indicator. It's hard for LD's to fake loving it, most can barely tolerate it in the courtship phase, and drop it almost entirely after that.



That might work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

sixty-eight said:


> i have no idea.
> 
> Never get married? (lol )
> 
> I've seen someone (Maybe Richardsharpe?, i can't remember) suggest that their enthusiasm to give oral is a good indicator. It's hard for LD's to fake loving it, most can barely tolerate it in the courtship phase, and drop it almost entirely after that.


The sex freak in me completely agrees. I actually think that there is a huge appreciation for the selflessness that accompanies the oral sex. 

A couple weeks ago my wife asked for oral. That doesn't happen often, so I was obliged to please her. Now, I could swear that shortly before, she mentioned that she might be getting her period. I thought about it for a split second, and went ahead and did it. Yes. She did have her period.

A few days ago, knowing she had her period, I asked for oral or a handy. It took a lot for me to ask. I'm still embarrassed and feel like a freak, but after the earlier events, I kind of thought it wasn't so inappropriate. She'll do oral for a few seconds, but she just prefers sex. Well, it didn't happen. She didn't understand why I wanted it. 

I kind of wish I got the feeling that she was doing something for me. Not just spreading her legs to appease me. I try to do it with her.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

sixty-eight said:


> i have no idea.
> 
> Never get married? (lol )
> 
> I've seen someone (Maybe Richardsharpe?, i can't remember) suggest that their enthusiasm to give oral is a good indicator. It's hard for LD's to fake loving it, most can barely tolerate it in the courtship phase, and drop it almost entirely after that.


I agree I do think oral enthusiasm is often a helpful indication about how someone thinks about sex, but on the other hand, most people change over time even without counting those who are truly being deceptive in the courting phase. 

For some the courting phase generates genuine sexual excitement that disappears never to return without it being anyone's "fault" in any meaningful sense of the word.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> So you are saying administer an "oral" exam, I like the way you think >


i mean, pretty much. :grin2:

It would have worked for us. I think sex is fun. I like giving oral, it turns me on. But i'm HD. I think all sex is fun, even when i'm not directly receiving pleasure at the time. It's one of the reasons i didn't wise up right away to the 68's he always wanted to have. It didn't occur to me that i would be generous, and he would respond to that by witholding even more, enjoying the control.

Mr.68 hates giving oral. He treats it like a chore. That he should do it once a year maybe, and that i should be grateful at his benevolence. When we were dating, he did it, and didn't say anything, but there was no joy or excitement. 

Not that i care so much about oral specifically. But whatever we do in bed, i want to be having fun and enjoying ourselves. It's never like that. If he never wanted to do oral, but everything else was great, i'd be on board with that. 

But i didn't know about mismatched compatibility. I thought all men loved sex, and that he would come around. Just shy or something. 
The things that i know now that i wish i knew then are innumerable.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

technovelist said:


> I have not ended a relationship over lack of sex, but I would do it if there were no legitimate (medical) reason for it. If all I wanted was a roommate, I wouldn't have gotten married.


I agree, but it's not that simple. You can't leave a relationship simply because you want to. If that were the case, I would have left 20 years ago. For many people they can't leave because of the money issues it would cause and because of not wanting to break up the family. This is such a complex issue though it may seem quite trivial at the surface. It seems that the lack of sex would have to overwhelm all the other issues leaving would cause for it to be a viable option. Sometimes I think that an LD spouse knows that and feels that as long as they know just how far they can go, they won't unless they have to.


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## Spitfire (Jun 6, 2015)

It's sadly comical when the spouse realizes you're no longer interested in sex. ( spouse talking) "Something's wrong! What happened to you initiating sex and me repeatedly turning you down! That was how I kept you under my thumb! What's left that will keep you around? Oh crap! Why don't you want to have sex?" (Me) "I'm tired" as I roll over. Now she's the one unable to sleep well at night while I sleep just fine.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

sixty-eight said:


> i have no idea.
> 
> Never get married? (lol )
> 
> I've seen someone (Maybe Richardsharpe?, i can't remember) suggest that their enthusiasm to give oral is a good indicator. It's hard for LD's to fake loving it, most can barely tolerate it in the courtship phase, and drop it almost entirely after that.


Now that's a great test - mine has given me exactly one BJ, and that was very early on in our relationship. Nowadays, she says how gross it is giving BJ's. Too bad I didn't hear about this when I met her.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

NoSizeQueen said:


> Even if there was a test, it wouldn't help with situational LD. Some HD spouses can't or won't see their role in the issue. *Even a true LD might be more willing to try please a partner that keeps them truly happy.*
> 
> My XH is absolutely positive that I just don't like sex, and that I'm not a very sexual person. He refused to believe that my drive was related to the way he treated me outside of the bedroom, because it just didn't work that way for him. And he used the idea that I wasn't sexual to explain away my lack of enthusiasm.
> 
> It turns out I really do like sex, just not sex with him.


agreed. I want a divorce, and we've stopped having sex altogether. Sleeping in separate rooms. I can't fathom wanting sex with him ever again.

This doesn't seem to register with him. He asked me the other night if i wanted to "Fvck for old times sake"
nope. Not even a little. He's so confused. To him, it's all my fault that he was abusive, and i always wanted sex before, so where's the problem?

I think for some partners that don't/can't admit their faults, this is the only think that makes any sense.

If they've reached this point, there's no convincing them otherwise either. How do you prove it's not so? you can't.

"Even a true LD might be more willing to try please a partner that keeps them truly happy." I think this is one of the only lasting ways to make a marriage with a sexual mismatch work.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

NoSizeQueen said:


> Even if there was a test, it wouldn't help with situational LD. Some HD spouses can't or won't see their role in the issue. Even a true LD might be more willing to try please a partner that keeps them truly happy.
> 
> My XH is absolutely positive that I just don't like sex, and that I'm not a very sexual person. He refused to believe that my drive was related to the way he treated me outside of the bedroom, because it just didn't work that way for him. And he used the idea that I wasn't sexual to explain away my lack of enthusiasm.
> 
> It turns out I really do like sex, just not sex with him.


While I do appreciate what you're saying, dealing with a partner who is constantly pushing thing in a bad direction during the day and needs carrying and is poor communicator and expects everything to be served to them for their satisfaction during the day eventually results in frustration and fatigue. you want nice, initiate something positive and properly communicated, and not just because you want it for the kids. (eg for fathers day)


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

The things that i know now that i wish i knew then are innumerable.[/QUOTE]

Oh Absolutely, if I knew now all the annoying things about my wife I do now, I definitely would never have married her. It's too bad you can't know things things earlier.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

Lionelhutz said:


> I agree I do think oral enthusiasm is often a helpful indication about how someone thinks about sex, but on the other hand, most people change over time even without counting those who are truly being deceptive in the courting phase.
> 
> For some the courting phase generates genuine sexual excitement that disappears never to return without it being anyone's "fault" in any meaningful sense of the word.


If it's a slow decline? change over time? If they once liked sex/oral you may be able to rekindle the fire, if you are willing to put in the work. Sometimes it really is just stress, or kids, or whatever. Stuff getting in your way.

But when you are immediately cut off on/near the wedding day, that's usually something you just have to accept. They were faking it. you're not getting any now. There's no hope.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

spotthedeaddog said:


> While I do appreciate what you're saying, dealing with a partner who is constantly pushing thing in a bad direction during the day and needs carrying and is poor communicator and expects everything to be served to them for their satisfaction during the day eventually results in frustration and fatigue. you want nice, initiate something positive and properly communicated, and not just because you want it for the kids. (eg for fathers day)


I agree. You just perfectly described my HD ex's behavior. Pushing things, needs carrying, poor communication, still wanted something nice from me anyway. And he didn't think he did these things.

Of course, that's not always the case. But I see it a lot in LD/HD threads. One spouse wants something, but feels they shouldn't have to offer anything in return. They think they should just get it anyway, because it will make them happy.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

spotthedeaddog said:


> While I do appreciate what you're saying, dealing with a partner who is constantly pushing thing in a bad direction during the day and needs carrying and is poor communicator and expects everything to be served to them for their satisfaction during the day eventually results in frustration and fatigue. you want nice, initiate something positive and properly communicated, and not just because you want it for the kids. (eg for fathers day)


that's where i am.

he wants to be hateful, he wants to be catered to, he wants to be the boss. He wants sex on his timetable, how he wants it. The sense of entitlement is strong in this one.

In an all or nothing ultimatum, i must choose nothing.
The frustration and fatigue got old.

(and that's why i totally get what @NoSizeQueen is talking about.) Mr.68, and it seems no size queen's ex too, would rather believe anything other than both sides have to put in effort for a good relationship/good sex.

But now Mr.68 is floundering. He should have to initiate something positive? be nice!!? he's never had to do that before! What is the little woman thinking? It's this exactly:


Spitfire said:


> It's sadly comical when the spouse realizes you're no longer interested in sex. ( spouse talking) "Something's wrong! What happened to you initiating sex and me repeatedly turning you down! That was how I kept you under my thumb! What's left that will keep you around? Oh crap! Why don't you want to have sex?" (Me) "I'm tired" as I roll over. *Now she's the one unable to sleep well at night while I sleep just fine*.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

jb02157 said:


> The things that i know now that i wish i knew then are innumerable.


Oh Absolutely, if I knew now all the annoying things about my wife I do now, I definitely would never have married her. It's too bad you can't know things things earlier.[/QUOTE]

You are married to my wife...:wink2: Seriously, I'm the same way - if I only knew then what I know now....In the old days, I loved spending time with her. Now, I can't wait until she goes somewhere and it's just the kids and me, or the kids and I go somewhere without her.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Just Wondering said:


> Each person has a different breaking point or acceptance point and as life goes on with age you react differently than you would earlier in life. For me I am married to a wonderful, caring, pretty, good wife who could careless about sex, romance,kissing,hugging, She has very little desire for sex. I believe she love's me. But she lacks sexual desire. Sure she enjoys a kiss, to be cuddled, to be held . But she lacks the desire for Orgasm. Its not important to her. We have what is called chore sex once a week. Its ok if you like starfish sex. I complain about it cause it just is not fulfilling . Sure its a release of tension. And at times better than nothing. But this is all the women as to offer . This is who she is and in a relationship its easier to change yourself than someone else. Yes am bitter about it and rather offended but it is what it is.


Everything you have written also describes my wife perfectly. I had never had a relationship with a lady before who had no desire for an orgasm. She did climax two or three times with a vibe around the time we got married, but it has been more than a year ago and she has no desire to repeat it. She says that she prefers real sex. It does seem like she enjoys it, but climaxing is not going to happen and she doesn't prefer that we continue past 15 minutes. 

She also doesn't have any interest to discuss anything about sex. She does not try to act sexy, but she never turned me down and she doesn't mind to wear sexy clothing for me at home if asked. Her breasts are sensitive, but she also doesn't really cared to be touched
anywhere else. She doesn't really enjoy receiving oral and she never initiates giving it. 

During our first year or two, I tried to improve our sex life, but I stopped trying about six months ago. I just let her ask me if I want to do something special, which happens about three times each month. I also never turn her down. Aside from that, she also likes hugs and a good night peck on the lips. 

She is also the least romantic lady I have known. Her way of showing care is by cooking for me during the week. I told her that her cooking is a nice bonus, but not one of my needs and that made her feel bad, so I just remind her each time that the food was great. We also travel together and we never fight. She is easy to get along with and without any passion, it is easy to not fight. Before I married her, I was a part-time musician and wrote music and lyrics. After our passionless marriage, I have completely lost my drive for that part of my life. 

I think that she is completely fine with our relationship, but we never talk about it.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> I agree, but it's not that simple. You can't leave a relationship simply because you want to. If that were the case, I would have left 20 years ago. For many people they can't leave because of the money issues it would cause and because of not wanting to break up the family. This is such a complex issue though it may seem quite trivial at the surface. It seems that the lack of sex would have to overwhelm all the other issues leaving would cause for it to be a viable option. *Sometimes I think that an LD spouse knows that and feels that as long as they know just how far they can go, they won't unless they have to.*


:iagree:
It is like it's instinctual no? staying persistently in the unpleasant, but not worth leaving over zone. I think your wife is the president of this zone jb. 

It's not that simple for some. But your story is one of the reasons that totally broke my staying for the kids plan. We are still young, we have not much debt and less assets. Better to get out now, while i still can. Even if i never find another relationship, living apart will still be better.

but our issues are not limited to sex, if they were, i believe i would be much more indecisive.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> The problem is, how do you get an LD to admit they are an LD if they know they have to act as an HD during the courting phase to get their future H/W? Maybe a lie detector test, dunk tank, etc... to weed them out???


I'd recommend allowing three or fours to know someone as well as possible. I didn't follow that rule.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Yup, that has been my observation from personal experience and from reading posts. There is something strangely special about oral where HD people very often really enjoy doing it (assuming it is reciprocated), and LD people find it really disgusting.

I'm interested in hearing about exceptions. 




sixty-eight said:


> i have no idea.
> 
> Never get married? (lol )
> 
> I've seen someone (Maybe Richardsharpe?, i can't remember) suggest that their enthusiasm to give oral is a good indicator. It's hard for LD's to fake loving it, most can barely tolerate it in the courtship phase, and drop it almost entirely after that.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

sixty-eight said:


> :iagree:
> It is like it's instinctual no? staying persistently in the unpleasant, but not worth leaving over zone. I think your wife is the president of this zone jb.
> 
> It's not that simple for some. But your story is one of the reasons that totally broke my staying for the kids plan. We are still young, we have not much debt and less assets. Better to get out now, while i still can. Even if i never find another relationship, living apart will still be better.
> ...


It is instinctual and yeah my wife is definitely the president of the club if not the founder.

I should have done the same as you plan to. I often feel stupid that I didn't. There were so many reasons why our relationship would never work, sex is just one of them. I never realized how truly different we are and have different opinions on nearly everything. Now we have nothing, no feelings for each other what so ever. Even if she were to completely change, I wouldn't be interested. The only thing I've ever thought for the last 20 years is how much I want to leave her. :frown2:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Physical intimacy is like the greatest joy of being married to me...

To have it taken away...or his no longer wanting to share in that.. would emotionally CRUSH ME... then I'd get angry...resentful.... I wouldn't handle this well at all....

Truth is...I have caused more spats over questioning if he desired me -when I had some sort of hormonal surge cove over me 7 yrs ago.. leading me here.. 

Just imaging his rejecting me....what some live with & have sacrificed for their families (Passion, bonding, reaching for each other for comfort)....feeling that sort of frustration and NEED was overwhelming to me...and I couldn't shut it off... then I'd get "aggressive" about it...

Not much patience here .. though this has died down.. I still long for his touch & desire, it's just not as urgent as it was when that came over me.. 

Everyone says .."If it's a medical issue, they wouldn't hold it against the other".. well of course we wouldn't, that would be so cruel !.... however... this by no means = it would be any easier.. in fact, the husband or wife would struggle terribly with GUILT ...even ashamed of themselves for being frustrated.. for being HUMAN basically...

Stepping into the shoes of a high driving faithful caretaker would be tormenting to live out alone every night..... the loss of what WAS , so precious & deep (no pun intended) would inevitably cause depression.. 

Honesty.. I'd rather die before we faced something like that, at least in the prime years.. once we're over the hill , his plumbing goes south and I'm all dried up.. it won't matter so much.. but NOT NOW !


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> It is instinctual and yeah my wife is definitely the president of the club if not the founder.
> 
> I should have done the same as you plan to. I often feel stupid that I didn't. There were so many reasons why our relationship would never work, sex is just one of them. I never realized how truly different we are and have different opinions on nearly everything. Now we have nothing, no feelings for each other what so ever. Even if she were to completely change, I wouldn't be interested. The only thing I've ever thought for the last 20 years is how much I want to leave her. :frown2:


you inspired me jb, to drop a sort of martyr complex and move on. There is no good and no honor in holding on for nothing, for the children. It doesn't benefit them in the long run.

I remember asking you a bunch of questions once and realizing you lived a catch 22, damned if you do, damned if you don't.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Honesty.. I'd rather die before we faced something like that, at least in the prime years.. *once we're over the hill , his plumbing goes south and I'm all dried up.*. it won't matter so much.. but NOT NOW !


Such a rosy picture you paint


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

jb02157 said:


> It is instinctual and yeah my wife is definitely the president of the club if not the founder.
> 
> I should have done the same as you plan to. I often feel stupid that I didn't. There were so many reasons why our relationship would never work, sex is just one of them. I never realized how truly different we are and have different opinions on nearly everything. Now we have nothing, no feelings for each other what so ever. Even if she were to completely change, I wouldn't be interested. The only thing I've ever thought for the last 20 years is how much I want to leave her. :frown2:


Sorry to hear this, jb. You also sound a lot like me - we live like roommates that share a bed. I've thought about leaving her for the past couple of years, but I'll never act on it for reasons stated before (kids, finances, etc). I just grin and bear it and play happy (which I am with the kids).


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> Yup, that has been my observation from personal experience and from reading posts. There is something strangely special about oral where HD people very often really enjoy doing it (assuming it is reciprocated), and LD people find it really disgusting.
> 
> I'm interested in hearing about exceptions.


My HD ex did not enjoy giving oral, he only tolerated it because he wanted to receive (he didn't usually outright refuse, but would avoid it if he could). But I don't think he really liked vaginas much... they were just a tool to get him what he wanted. He watched a lot of porn, maybe a real one was a little TOO real for him. 

But I think your theory about oral is mostly true overall.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

ChargingCharlie said:


> Sorry to hear this, jb. You also sound a lot like me - we live like roommates that share a bed. I've thought about leaving her for the past couple of years, but I'll never act on it for reasons stated before (kids, finances, etc). I just grin and bear it and play happy (which I am with the kids).


So the question, kids are grown up and out of the house. Now what? Do you continue to grin and bear it (I don't how much of your reasons financially are tied to the kids)?


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Marriage....the Catholic Church answer to the shortage of priest. 

I'm not sure any of us signed up to become martyrs, so if your marriage is not fulfilling your needs then it's time to move on....it all depends what is your breaking point....here is a question to ask a spouse.....
If I had a terminal illness and it required a shot every day would you give be it too me ...but if on the other hand I had a terminal illness that required sex everyday, would you do that? I am pretty sure i would not make it through the week....


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> So the question, kids are grown up and out of the house. Now what? Do you continue to grin and bear it (I don't how much of your reasons financially are tied to the kids)?


We'll be in our mid 60's by then (yes, we are old parents). Maybe then I'll tell her to get lost, or I'll just ride it out.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

ChargingCharlie said:


> We'll be in our mid 60's by then (yes, we are old parents). Maybe then I'll tell her to get lost, or I'll just ride it out.


At that age just grab some "pills" and hit up one of those retirement communities :grin2:


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> At that age just grab some "pills" and hit up one of those retirement communities :grin2:


That's a hell of an idea - we haven't had sex in the past five years (since our mid-40's), so might as well go out and see what's there, as it won't get any better in our house. 

Scratch that - due to her absolute zero drive, my drive has gone down as well. I'm not sure I could get it up if the petite hottie that lives a few houses down came over and told me to do what I want to her.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> There is relief in your future. After several years of being serially turned down and shoved away by my wife, something magical has happened in my life. She used to be the sexiest woman on earth. Now, she is no longer even female. She is a dependent, someone who lives with me and consumes what I earn. She could be replaced by a dude, a nun, or my sister or brother and my life would not change even slightly. It's not tons of fun living a sexless existence but in other ways it's quite liberating. Positively zero reason to ever jump through even one more flaming hoop. Once you rip that silly veneer of sex off marriage, you get to clearly see it as the exploitative arrangement it is, was, and always will be.


Hmm. Now that you see that you are being exploited, you're okay with that without even getting the usual payoff? I'm not sure what relief you are promising.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

sixty-eight said:


> I've already seen what some of what i would have written several times. While i was still trying frantically to reconnect, he seemed to enjoy declining. When we would have sex once in 3-4 weeks, resetting the timer is a great analogy.
> 
> Now, I've detached. I can't bring myself to care that we aren't having sex anymore. It's been a few months. He really hates it, because he's been controlling/withholding for years, and he hates that i moved into another room. I told him i needed my own space if were were in a SSM. He still said no to sex. Even though i can tell it bothers him, it hasn't changed his behavior at all. No affection at all, asking if i want to fvck out of nowhere once every 6 weeks or so, no build up. I guess it was fine for him to say no, but not me.
> 
> ...


How awful for you. I hope you get away from this situation soon.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

sixty-eight said:


> :iagree:
> It is like it's instinctual no? staying persistently in the unpleasant, but not worth leaving over zone. I think your wife is the president of this zone jb.
> 
> It's not that simple for some. But your story is one of the reasons that totally broke my staying for the kids plan. We are still young, we have not much debt and less assets. Better to get out now, while i still can. Even if i never find another relationship, living apart will still be better.
> ...


You will be able to find another relationship when you are ready for it.

The good news is that it will be indescribably different and better than where you are now.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

ChargingCharlie said:


> That's a hell of an idea - we haven't had sex in the past five years (since our mid-40's), so might as well go out and see what's there, as it won't get any better in our house.
> 
> Scratch that - due to her absolute zero drive, my drive has gone down as well. I'm not sure I could get it up if the petite hottie that lives a few houses down came over and told me to do what I want to her.


You might be surprised.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

technovelist said:


> How awful for you. I hope you get away from this situation soon.





technovelist said:


> You will be able to find another relationship when you are ready for it.
> 
> The good news is that it will be indescribably different and better than where you are now.


yep. all i can do now is focus on the kids and I, like I've always done. It sucks, but a lot of people have it a lot worse. 

It's actually not so bad right now. He's giving me the silent treatment. And from someone who is in love with himself, and favors verbal abuse, it's like a teeny tiny vacation 

And as for new relationships, i'm sure i'll get there eventually. For now, they scare the sh!t out of me, and for good reason.


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## thebirdman (Apr 5, 2014)

Once every week or two for me, which has been what I would call "the high point" in our marriage, is like walking through the desert and finding a well every 30 miles. I'm a man who really likes to drink water... Daily. Her LD is due to medical reasons. What do you do? I guess I suffer in silence mostly. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Spitfire (Jun 6, 2015)

ChargingCharlie said:


> jb02157 said:
> 
> 
> > The things that i know now that i wish i knew then are innumerable.
> ...


You are married to my wife...







Seriously, I'm the same way - if I only knew then what I know now....In the old days, I loved spending time with her. Now, I can't wait until she goes somewhere and it's just the kids and me, or the kids and I go somewhere without her.[/QUOTE]

This is so true. Occasionally my wife works 5-9pm. Those are the best evenings of the week for me and my boys. No chaos just a much more relaxed atmosphere. We make dinner, get everything cleaned up and do some laundry. No drama whatsoever. I start feeling a sense of dread as her arrival home nears. She often goes to bed around 9pm. As soon as she says she's going to bed I breathe a sigh of relief looking forward to a couple hours of sanity. lol


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

[This is so true. Occasionally my wife works 5-9pm. Those are the best evenings of the week for me and my boys. No chaos just a much more relaxed atmosphere. We make dinner, get everything cleaned up and do some laundry. No drama whatsoever. I start feeling a sense of dread as her arrival home nears. She often goes to bed around 9pm. As soon as she says she's going to bed I breathe a sigh of relief looking forward to a couple hours of sanity. lol[/QUOTE]

Wow, this is eerily similar to our situation. Our best evenings are when Mommy is working late or has plans with friends - like you, we make and eat dinner, get everything cleaned up, have some play time, get a bath, then bedtime. Much more relaxed. 

A couple of years ago, I used to dread going home after work as she would be totally stressed out from having the kids by herself for about an hour to hour and a half, and be mad at me for not being home to help (because I'm self-employed, I should just go home and help with the kids even though I have a meeting). Not that way now, but it was bad for a time.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
thanks for the data point / feedback. Clearly there is a range between "don't like it much" and "are grossed out by it". 

He was the HD one - was he still getting all the sex he wanted? Maybe this is partly determined by whether someone is feeling sexually frustrated?

Not that this needs to be a perfect rule or anything - just a potential warning sign. 






NoSizeQueen said:


> My HD ex did not enjoy giving oral, he only tolerated it because he wanted to receive (he didn't usually outright refuse, but would avoid it if he could). But I don't think he really liked vaginas much... they were just a tool to get him what he wanted. He watched a lot of porn, maybe a real one was a little TOO real for him.
> 
> But I think your theory about oral is mostly true overall.


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## Spitfire (Jun 6, 2015)

ChargingCharlie said:


> [This is so true. Occasionally my wife works 5-9pm. Those are the best evenings of the week for me and my boys. No chaos just a much more relaxed atmosphere. We make dinner, get everything cleaned up and do some laundry. No drama whatsoever. I start feeling a sense of dread as her arrival home nears. She often goes to bed around 9pm. As soon as she says she's going to bed I breathe a sigh of relief looking forward to a couple hours of sanity. lol


Wow, this is eerily similar to our situation. Our best evenings are when Mommy is working late or has plans with friends - like you, we make and eat dinner, get everything cleaned up, have some play time, get a bath, then bedtime. Much more relaxed. 

A couple of years ago, I used to dread going home after work as she would be totally stressed out from having the kids by herself for about an hour to hour and a half, and be mad at me for not being home to help (because I'm self-employed, I should just go home and help with the kids even though I have a meeting). Not that way now, but it was bad for a time.[/QUOTE]

lol. I'm self employed too. My wife works about 12 hours per week. She'll be home all day by herself and the minute I walk in the door she'll say "It's total chaos in here!". The sink is full of dirty dishes, baskets of laundry on the bed, hasn't thought about dinner yet. I'll think to myself WTH have you been doing all day! I figured it out a while back when I looked at her cell phone bill. She goes through an average of 2,000 talk minutes per month. I've brought it up before but she freaks out and it ends with her either saying she's done with me or threatens to move out. To which I say "You know where the door is".


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> thanks for the data point / feedback. Clearly there is a range between "don't like it much" and "are grossed out by it".
> 
> He was the HD one - was he still getting all the sex he wanted? Maybe this is partly determined by whether someone is feeling sexually frustrated?
> ...


He wasn't grossed out by it, but he would avoid it if he thought he could, and he had high standards for my shaving and hygiene. He usually wasn't a big fun of acts that gave me pleasure but not him (like oral and fingering)... I think he felt they were pointless because he couldn't give me an orgasm anyway.

He wasn't getting all he wanted, but we had sex at least once a week. All of this was true even when it was 4 times a week.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> Sounds very familiar. Dare I ask how you the two of you are doing?


She's more willing to participate in sex, and does seem to enjoy it most times. The other issues are in critical condition, though.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

tornado said:


> If we just get the LDs to marry LDs and the sex freaks with their kind we could solve most marriage problems. I've always wondered how a person could think their married spouse could be a freak for wanting sex with them. Isn't that part of marriage and being a couple. Being looked at as dirty for suggesting something is a bad feeling.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Idk how many LD have some kind of trauma history, but it is a very common result of trauma to end up with sex problems in marriage.

As teens and early 20's, sex abuse survivors can be very sexual. CSA survivors have sexual relationships at an earlier age than average, and are more promiscuous than average. (Some CSA survivors go the other way and become prudish and sexual withdrawn, too).

My wife fell into the early start and promiscuous category. Wow, she was the perfect girlfriend! We meshed in all the other areas, too, so her being enthusiastic about sex was the icing on the cake.

But due to the psychology of trauma, sex can become very difficult after marriage. For my wife it went south just before the wedding but then really went bad after the first baby was born. Long story short, it is a common path for CSA survivors. Many men never know about their spouse's CSA and/or have no idea of the connection.


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

Spitfire said:


> It's sadly comical when the spouse realizes you're no longer interested in sex. ( spouse talking) "Something's wrong! What happened to you initiating sex and me repeatedly turning you down! That was how I kept you under my thumb! What's left that will keep you around? Oh crap! Why don't you want to have sex?" (Me) "I'm tired" as I roll over. Now she's the one unable to sleep well at night while I sleep just fine.


Oh Yes these Ld's are strange people. Last weekend I have my regular dose of chore sex. She say's to me like I' am next in line OK lets take care of your lil problem (Sex] Believe me She is a wonderful person and wife. But has no interest in sex. I say to myself this is the last time I will except this kind of sex. Well a week has gone by, I start to pull back, no more cuddling,few kisses, start the 180, stop mentioning sex, She says to me today Wow what a nice week We sure are getting along good lately. She actually enjoys not having to have a orgasm??? You have to laugh at it cause it will make you crazy.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

Thor said:


> Idk how many LD have some kind of trauma history, but it is a very common result of trauma to end up with sex problems in marriage.
> 
> As teens and early 20's, sex abuse survivors can be very sexual. CSA survivors have sexual relationships at an earlier age than average, and are more promiscuous than average. (Some CSA survivors go the other way and become prudish and sexual withdrawn, too).
> 
> ...


i'm almost positive my stbx has NPD. He says that his father verbally abused him as a child (called him worthless), was left to be babysat by his druggie felon older brothers(occasionally gave him drugs, paid him for clean urine, involved him in crime), and was taken hunting by his father, every time positive that my FIL was going to leave him in the woods this time. He has all the warning signs/traits. It took me about 7 years to come up with a name for what he was, although i knew something more than just being LD or Low T was wrong right around our first anniversary.

So because of this, he did the stereotypical "love-bombing" in the beginning, but enjoys the control aspect more.
Since i like sex, that means, denying me sex/love/affection. Witholding.

In my case, the only out to this behavior is to pretend giving up/disinterest. Reverse psychology is the only end to the maze.
I only figured this out when i reached real indifference/disinterest.

i've seen this in a few other threads (mostly men, or occasionally another HD woman) who married someone with strong NPD or BPD traits. Often, these are the people who never want sex again after the wedding night. Or only when they see it as a means to control you.

Almost all of the cluster B personality disorders are thought to be caused by some perceived or real childhood damage.

I'm sorry about your wife Thor  That must be difficult for both of you.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

sixty-eight said:


> agreed. I want a divorce, and we've stopped having sex altogether. Sleeping in separate rooms. I can't fathom wanting sex with him ever again.
> 
> This doesn't seem to register with him. He asked me the other night if i wanted to "Fvck for old times sake"
> nope. Not even a little. He's so confused. To him, it's all my fault that he was abusive, and i always wanted sex before, so where's the problem?
> ...



Their opinion becomes fact on their mind, and you should accept it as fact too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Sixty-eight, I thought your post was interesting, because your H and my XH sound very similar (besides being on opposite ends of the drive spectrum), and I have often wondered if XH has some sort of NPD. I used to think it was my imagination, because he doesn't have a grandiose personality like most NPDs. Then I came across the term "covert narcissist", and he hits nearly every trait!

I feel your pain. Good luck finding a way out! I made it, and I actually feel like a real person again... I'd almost forgotten what that was like!


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

I read this entire thread and it is making me really depressed.
SHIIT! How can it all come to this? I had my breaking point and it was once a week or two of starfish sex. We had the "talk" in which I said I could no longer live like this. Basically, my wife came to realize that I might be CRAZY enough to leave and destroy everything.

I think this scared the shiit out of her and she started to change. I also realized that I was part of the problem and changed. To date, I am certain that my wife is still LD and I HD. However, she at least let's me TRY to get her worked up. If I am on my game, no matter how tired she is or no matter what she says, at some point during sex, I KNOW she is into it. Obviously, some days are better than others.

For me, if I can see some sort of light at the end of the tunnel, it's enough for me because I know it's there somewhere and in time if I continue I'll see more of it.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

NoSizeQueen said:


> Sixty-eight, I thought your post was interesting, because your H and my XH sound very similar (besides being on opposite ends of the drive spectrum), and I have often wondered if XH has some sort of NPD. I used to think it was my imagination, because he doesn't have a grandiose personality like most NPDs. Then I came across the term "covert narcissist", and he hits nearly every trait!
> 
> I feel your pain. Good luck finding a way out! I made it, and I actually feel like a real person again... I'd almost forgotten what that was like!


Thank you! yes, mine seems to be some mix between overt and covert. He's odd. I think he would be overt, except for his father verbally devalued him as a child (ugly, worthless), and he's an overweight adult. Now that he's been going to the gym and has lost a lot of weight, and has gotten a promotion at work, i see a lot more self love instead of self loathe. The shift between those this year really helped me finally clue in. One can have a lot of the traits without having the disorder, but having all the traits pretty much seals it. If it's only a few, they call it a "high-conflict personality"

i think i'm in the narcissistic discard stage anyway. He seems done with me, and i've been careful lately to have no percieved value to him, and be ultra boring/non responsive to drama. Now he can't seem to get away fast enough. I've tried to get away before, and he's always hung on for dear life. Hope it lasts! 

Congrats to you!


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

UMP said:


> I read this entire thread and it is making me really depressed.
> SHIIT! How can it all come to this? I had my breaking point and it was once a week or two of starfish sex. We had the "talk" in which I said I could no longer live like this. Basically, my wife came to realize that I might be CRAZY enough to leave and destroy everything.
> 
> I think this scared the shiit out of her and she started to change. I also realized that I was part of the problem and changed. To date, I am certain that my wife is still LD and I HD. However, she at least let's me TRY to get her worked up. If I am on my game, no matter how tired she is or no matter what she says, at some point during sex, I KNOW she is into it. Obviously, some days are better than others.
> ...


after a few months of no sex, i enter the IDGAF phase. With no sex, and no affection, i simply no longer want sex with my partner. We become, in effect, roommates. It has not had the same effect on my partner. After years of not seeming to care/sadistic glee on withholding, my indifference and removal from the marriage bed seems to have sparked his sex drive. Seems like a desparate, last ditch effort. I have no doubt that if i caved, things would quickly return to the status quo.

It sounds sad, but it actually makes life a lot easier. I wonder if this is how it feels to be LD.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

sixty-eight said:


> after a few months of no sex, i enter the IDGAF phase. With no sex, and no affection, i simply no longer want sex with my partner. We become, in effect, roommates. .


I think this is what would happen to me if there was a medical reason why my husband couldn't have sex anymore. When I was pregnant with my 2nd and 3rd child, I was on bedrest and that also meant no sex. After a while it was like a switch turned off inside me.

If he was withholding sex just to be a butthead, I'm not sure what I would do. It's real easy to just say divorce but we're talking 30+ years of dating and marriage. It's hard to walk away.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

sixty-eight said:


> after a few months of no sex, i enter the IDGAF phase. With no sex, and no affection, i simply no longer want sex with my partner. We become, in effect, roommates. It has not had the same effect on my partner. After years of not seeming to care/sadistic glee on withholding, my indifference and removal from the marriage bed seems to have sparked his sex drive. Seems like a desparate, last ditch effort. I have no doubt that if i caved, things would quickly return to the status quo.
> 
> It sounds sad, but it actually makes life a lot easier. I wonder if this is how it feels to be LD.


I am sorry, but your husband has some serious, serious issues. I read all your posts and I would punch him out myself. It seems the only power you have left is your ability to tell him to go to hell when he asks "wanna f$ck?" I don't blame you one bit, it just makes me sad.

It's like a slippery slope. Unless you catch it early and are BOTH interested in climbing back up, it ends up hopeless.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

NoSizeQueen said:


> I was the LD in a mismatched marriage. We weren't sexless, it was mostly weekly duty sex. I ended the marriage... Sex was a factor in that decision, but there were many other factors involved.
> 
> Ultimately, his attitude toward sex (and the resulting mismatch) was just a symptom of the real problem that ended our marriage. He treated me as if my purpose was to serve him and his needs, and he treated my needs as an inconvenience.


Well that "there to serve each others needs, even if it is a chore" is part of that marriage contract, and originally why sex was seen as a Right for a man to insist/take.

That was because when you swore sole sexual partnership, that meant sacrificing all other partners who could have supplied that need - thus when you agreed to that -contract-, you agreed in formal ceremony explicit consent to satisfying those needs. Likewise the other parts of the contract for shelter etc.

That's why infidelity was seen as a valid cancelling of the contract because clearly one person had gone outside the contract for fulfillment and had violated their contractual obligations


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

UMP said:


> I am sorry, but your husband has some serious, serious issues. I read all your posts and I would punch him out myself. It seems the only power you have left is your ability to tell him to go to hell when he asks "wanna f$ck?" I don't blame you one bit, it just makes me sad.
> 
> It's like a slippery slope. Unless you catch it early and are BOTH interested in climbing back up, it ends up hopeless.


yup, the kicker is, because he's a mans man (hunting, fishing, etc) he is largely well liked. A master manipulator, snake in the grass type. Odds are, you'd like him. Odds are, he'd change himself into who you would like on purpose if he can figure it out quick enough. And then he'd lie about me, projection, role reversal and play the victim.

yup, that's my power. and now that i'm in IDGAF, i can use it with sincerity. He also hates the separate rooms. To him, i've removed myself from the equation, and taken away his power to hold a no over my head. 

He's reacting to this by drinking a lot, and telling me constantly that he's drowning his sorrows, looking for pity

We are scheduled to officially separate Feb 1st when the lease runs out. I'm counting the minutes


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

Just Wondering said:


> Oh Yes these Ld's are strange people. Last weekend I have my regular dose of chore sex. She say's to me like I' am next in line OK lets take care of your lil problem (Sex] Believe me She is a wonderful person and wife. But has no interest in sex. I say to myself this is the last time I will except this kind of sex. Well a week has gone by, I start to pull back, no more cuddling,few kisses, start the 180, stop mentioning sex, She says to me today Wow what a nice week We sure are getting along good lately. She actually enjoys not having to have a orgasm??? You have to laugh at it cause it will make you crazy.


Your lil problem? Your wife really says that? She sounds like your Mom not your wife. That's a real turn on. Not. You say this is the last time you will accept this kind of sex, sure it is until she offers you sex again. This kind of sex is better than no sex.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Just Wondering said:


> Oh Yes these Ld's are strange people. Last weekend I have my regular dose of chore sex. She say's to me like I' am next in line OK lets take care of your lil problem (Sex] Believe me She is a wonderful person and wife. But has no interest in sex. I say to myself this is the last time I will except this kind of sex. Well a week has gone by, I start to pull back, no more cuddling,few kisses, start the 180, stop mentioning sex, She says to me today Wow what a nice week We sure are getting along good lately. She actually enjoys not having to have a orgasm??? You have to laugh at it cause it will make you crazy.


I don't see how the 180 is going to work in this case. Obviously she is happy without sex or even cuddling, so why should she change if you seem to be happy with it too?


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

Spitfire said:


> Wow, this is eerily similar to our situation. Our best evenings are when Mommy is working late or has plans with friends - like you, we make and eat dinner, get everything cleaned up, have some play time, get a bath, then bedtime. Much more relaxed.
> 
> A couple of years ago, I used to dread going home after work as she would be totally stressed out from having the kids by herself for about an hour to hour and a half, and be mad at me for not being home to help (because I'm self-employed, I should just go home and help with the kids even though I have a meeting). Not that way now, but it was bad for a time.


lol. I'm self employed too. My wife works about 12 hours per week. She'll be home all day by herself and the minute I walk in the door she'll say "It's total chaos in here!". The sink is full of dirty dishes, baskets of laundry on the bed, hasn't thought about dinner yet. I'll think to myself WTH have you been doing all day! I figured it out a while back when I looked at her cell phone bill. She goes through an average of 2,000 talk minutes per month. I've brought it up before but she freaks out and it ends with her either saying she's done with me or threatens to move out. To which I say "You know where the door is".[/QUOTE]

Gotta love it - and she'll blame you for not being there to help. You're self-employed, so you can leave when you want. This was my wife's attitude - she's a quasi-public employee who gets every holiday off and then some, and she couldn't figure out why I just couldn't come home to help her (note that I would get in late as I was responsible for getting the kids to the sitter as she'd already be at work. 

My wife has gotten better in that I'm not in trouble anymore if I have to work late, but she usually won't have dinner ready for the kids if I'm home at 6 - if dinner was done, then the dishes are all over the place, and she's sitting on her ass playing on the computer while the kids are playing. When I have them, we eat at 5 then we clean up - this gives us time to play before we have to get ready for bed. It's just laziness on their part - and in my wife's case, it extends to her being overweight (she never exercises even though she's always complaining that she's fat) and our lack of sex life (sex is too much work). I don't take her with us to the park, because the one time that she went, she complained that we walked too far, and that the kids were too whiny.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

technovelist said:


> I don't see how the 180 is going to work in this case. Obviously she is happy without sex or even cuddling, so why should she change if you seem to be happy with it too?


agreed, you'll have to focus the 180 on withdrawing the things she does like or finds especially fulfilling. Or on the things that she doesn't think you should be able to say no to.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

technovelist said:


> I don't see how the 180 is going to work in this case. Obviously she is happy without sex or even cuddling, so why should she change if you seem to be happy with it too?


Sounds more like a 360!


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

#180,360,720, It will make you dizzy. The one thing about the difference in a relationship that is LD/HD is its a revolving door When it gets better enjoy it cause the LD's don't enjoy it when its good. All I have ever wanted was just some balance in it. Just something I could count on.
As far as the 180 does. Its like this for me .I will give 100% to our relationship and more. As a male, Am a good ***** or the type of guy that constantly works around the house.inside and out. What ever needs to be done.
Lets forget the romance part of it. Theirs very little interest on her part. Take a look at it like two friends living together. Best friends and one hand washes the other hand. You wouldn't let your best friend down. How could it be that your best friend does everything in the world for you and you turn around and treat them like Sh2t. How does that work. Every single thing in your life is perfect and the LD can't give up a little affection weekly. To me I think it's a case of being self center, Selfish , one sided. 
Why would an LD person give everything they have up for a few mins of affection. So the 180 , I tend to remove all the wonderful things I do for my wife when we get out of balance and The women does not care or respond to it. MC Hammer said it best. Can't touch this. They have no remorse. They just don't care about anyone but them selfs 
Its like they can't stand you happy. The min. everything is going good and in a good dereaction they have a melt down and f88k it up. Vent over


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Just Wondering said:


> Its like they can't stand you happy. The min. everything is going good and in a good dereaction they have a melt down and f88k it up. Vent over


Just Wondering, that so much sounds like my last relationship. As long as I was too busy working, she would leave me to it and do her own thing.

Turns out that as long as she had steady income and home and her kids that was all she needed in the relationship - the absolute _last_ thing she wanted was an actual partner she had to consider - so even good gestures were turned into negatives e.g. I'd cook or arrange to bring takeout when they were really busy, they would deign eat with me. One occasion they got home from school camp at 8:30pm, and had no food in house/even milk had soured, but I had anticipated and brought over a meal so it was hot when they got in. I got a verbal (literal quote) "thanks". then no contact/refused contact for 10 days, then when I caught up again was told "not to do that again as it undermined her".


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> My breaking point finally arrived after 20 years of steadily decreasing frequency.
> 
> The only way I made it as long as I did is because she was a good mate in all other way, our children, and a steadfast determination to fix the problem.
> 
> In the last year I have come to the realization that there is no improving this, the kids are grown and nearly grown, and it is time to move on. I wish I could remember who said this, *so I could attribute the quote, but "our marriage has come to its natural end*."


If you meant someone on TAM then it was me, it has always been how I felt about it and from day one it was how I explained it to others. Very few people IRL know why I ended the marriage as I had no desire to shame my ex. 
Am a firm believer in it being OK to end a marriage if it is the best thing to do, I sacrificed too many good years in a passionless marriage and vowed never to waste a single day after the divorce.

As to the Op, Mr H has a 3 day time limit, after that he would get kicked to the curb unless he had a major injury or a hangover.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

This thread has turned into a "lets list all of the negative qualities about our wives thread". Would you husbands really be thinking this negatively about your wives if your sex life was great? I'm guessing not. Your just dissing you wives because they aren't giving you sex. Are you treating your wives nicely, helping out at home, showing affection not criticizing her? It doesn't sounds like anyone of you are acting nicely you are just trying to avoid your wives and without that emotional connection then it's no surprise she doesn't want to have sex with you.


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> I don't quite get the bolded, so she has decided that it is ok to reject you? IDK, *it just sounds like you have all the accountability in making this work and she has all the control*, doesn't seem very fair and balanced if you ask me. I mean, you mentioned that the current 8 month hiatus was originally supposed to be only 1 or 2 months, that is a rather drastic "delay". *I don't see a lot of masculine leadership in this tbh*. I truly hope this works out for you, something just does't add up from what you are saying/hoping against your wife's actions.


I think masculine leadership takes a lot of different forms depending on where you are in your relationship. In my case taking accountability for our deteriorating sex life instead of continuing to blame my wife for not wanting it more often and not being adventurous enough and making significant changes to my behavior was a really important first step. Embedded in this is a behavioral trait that is often referenced in these threads that has also taken a long time to unwind - the hideous needy nice guy behavior of covert contracts or giving to get that seeps into the HD husband so often without even realizing it in an effort to try to get more sex. It took me a long time to fully grasp how frequently I was letting this seep into my actions and to appreciate what a complete attraction killer it is.

Your observation about my having all the accountability while she has all the control is a pretty accurate description of what has been happening while I've been working on fixing my issues but not at all how I intend for things to be going forward - that would be a miserable way to live and not at all reflective of a strong complete marriage.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Happilymarried25 said:


> This thread has turned into a "lets list all of the negative qualities about our wives thread".
> Would you husbands really be thinking this negatively about your wives if your sex life was great? I'm guessing not. Your just dissing you wives because they aren't giving you sex. Are you treating your wives nicely, helping out at home, showing affection not criticizing her? It doesn't sounds like anyone of you are acting nicely you are just trying to avoid your wives and without that emotional connection then it's no surprise she doesn't want to have sex with you.


Well, the title of this thread is not "Talk About Your Awesome Sexlife", so naturally people here are talking about their own experiences. As well, there are a lot of areas in a relationship that tie into a sex life which is where discussing some other qualities comes in to play.

So based on your analysis, anyone posting here is not getting sex because they don't treat their spouse nice and don't make any effort to build an emotional connection  It should also be stated that some people actually require sex to help build that emotional connection, everyone is different


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

GoodFunLife said:


> I think masculine leadership takes a lot of different forms depending on where you are in your relationship. In my case taking accountability for our deteriorating sex life instead of continuing to blame my wife for not wanting it more often and not being adventurous enough and making significant changes to my behavior was a really important first step. Embedded in this is a behavioral trait that is often referenced in these threads that has also taken a long time to unwind - the hideous needy nice guy behavior of covert contracts or giving to get that seeps into the HD husband so often without even realizing it in an effort to try to get more sex. It took me a long time to fully grasp how frequently I was letting this seep into my actions and to appreciate what a complete attraction killer it is.
> 
> Your observation about my having all the accountability while she has all the control is a pretty accurate description of what has been happening while I've been working on fixing my issues but not at all how I intend for things to be going forward - that would be a miserable way to live and not at all reflective of a strong complete marriage.


So going back to my OP, do you think you would have a breaking point where enough is enough, or really any idea what that breaking point would be? Just curious, do you have a deadline since 8 months have already passed? I would just worry that you are doing all these things feel are necessary to get things back on track, and if she doesn't eventually reciprocate then you will just grow more resentful (I know in the past I did develop some resentment).


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

Happilymarried25 said:


> This thread has turned into a "lets list all of the negative qualities about our wives thread". Would you husbands really be thinking this negatively about your wives if your sex life was great? I'm guessing not. Your just dissing you wives because they aren't giving you sex. Are you treating your wives nicely, helping out at home, showing affection not criticizing her? It doesn't sounds like anyone of you are acting nicely you are just trying to avoid your wives and without that emotional connection then it's no surprise she doesn't want to have sex with you.


you do realise that holland, no size queen, and i are women yes?
and i thought i made it pretty clear that i'm a soon to be divorced abuse survivor, which makes this part just laughable
*"Are you treating your wives nicely, helping out at home, showing affection not criticizing her?"
*
Ynot is discussing his ex that left him 2x after an affair, and then a false R
Thor's wife is a CSA survivor in counseling
jb02157 is trapped because of financial obligations to his children
nosizequeen is divorced.
i'm sure there's more.

I think ellis answered you pretty well for those that are still working or have given up on a current relationship. Maybe next time you should actually read the thread.


EllisRedding said:


> Well, the title of this thread is not "Talk About Your Awesome Sexlife", so naturally people here are talking about their own experiences. As well, there are a lot of areas in a relationship that tie into a sex life which is where discussing some other qualities comes in to play.
> 
> So based on your analysis, anyone posting here is not getting sex because they don't treat their spouse nice and don't make any effort to build an emotional connection  It should also be stated that some people actually require sex to help build that emotional connection, everyone is different


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Happilymarried25 said:


> This thread has turned into a "lets list all of the negative qualities about our wives thread". Would you husbands really be thinking this negatively about your wives if your sex life was great? I'm guessing not. Your just dissing you wives because they aren't giving you sex. Are you treating your wives nicely, helping out at home, showing affection not criticizing her? It doesn't sounds like anyone of you are acting nicely you are just trying to avoid your wives and without that emotional connection then it's no surprise she doesn't want to have sex with you.


I have written at length about this. All the p0rn star sex in the world can't and won't fix general marital issues.

But decent sex is a good common ground to use to build upon. Without it everything comes under a large, and often distorting lens.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> It should also be stated that some people actually require sex to help build that emotional connection, everyone is different


When my partner refuses sex / physical intimacy I feel absolutely gross and revolting.

It is difficult because I while I love physical intimacy, the biological mechanisms wired into my body are designed and sensitive, towards sexual activity when I feel physically touched or appreciated.

If the refusal is something clear, eg illness, or highly stressed day I can deal with the "dump out", but when it is a constant on-going reasons then it is clear that seeking drama is higher priority for my partner, than my worth as a human to them. And what am I supposed to do about it (last wait out period, was 9 months).

To be fair most of my previous partner had me initiate, so they got comfortable with that level of service so asking them to actually show an interest was probably asking too much.
One previous boyfriend and I were a laugh though - totally out of phase with our desire: I want to do stuff, he want sex; I feel like sex he was keen to get and do stuff.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

spotthedeaddog said:


> When my partner refuses sex / physical intimacy I feel absolutely gross and revolting.
> 
> It is difficult because I while I love physical intimacy, the biological mechanisms wired into my body are designed and sensitive, towards sexual activity when I feel physically touched or appreciated.
> 
> ...


My wife and I are different in that for her she wants the closeness of hugs, kisses, etc... throughout the day to build the emotional connection, which then builds towards sex. For me, I need sex to feel that closeness, which then helps for me to build that emotional connection to her. The challenge of course is being about to meet somewhere in the middle. Sometimes we do a great job and sometimes we do a lousy job.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

sixty-eight said:


> yup, the kicker is, because he's a mans man (hunting, fishing, etc) he is largely well liked. A master manipulator, snake in the grass type. Odds are, you'd like him. Odds are, he'd change himself into who you would like on purpose if he can figure it out quick enough. And then he'd lie about me, projection, role reversal and play the victim.
> 
> yup, that's my power. and now that i'm in IDGAF, i can use it with sincerity. He also hates the separate rooms. To him, i've removed myself from the equation, and taken away his power to hold a no over my head.
> 
> ...


Here is what your husband should do. Scour the internet for advice, get and read everything he can get his hands on. Sit down with you with an open mind and ask exactly what you think he is doing wrong. He needs to take all that information and genuinely change to gain your love and affection. His primary goal should be his own betterment, and you would happily follow him, IF it was genuine and permanent.

That is exactly what I did and it took me several years to gain back my wifes trust. I still f$ck up here and there, but she is once again in my corner.

However, your husband thinks that wallowing in his own self pity will get him somewhere. I know because I've tried myself. It only digs the hole deeper.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

UMP said:


> Here is what your husband should do. Scour the internet for advice, get and read everything he can get his hands on. Sit down with you with an open mind and ask exactly what you think he is doing wrong. He needs to take all that information and genuinely change to gain your love and affection. His primary goal should be his own betterment, and you would happily follow him, IF it was genuine and permanent.
> 
> That is exactly what I did and it took me several years to gain back my wifes trust. I still f$ck up here and there, but she is once again in my corner.
> 
> However, your husband thinks that wallowing in his own self pity will get him somewhere. I know because I've tried myself. It only digs the hole deeper.


In a perfect world, my husband would be happy to do that. Unfortunately, he is unwilling to admit that he's doing anything wrong ever, and has strong NPD traits. He doesn't want to fix anything, he wants me to capitulate, and go back to the status quo. The self pity is just a manipulation tactic.

I've been trying to fix things on my own for a long time, it just will never work with someone who isn't willing to meet you half way.

I admire you UMP, i've read a lot of what you have written since i've been here, and you've worked hard on your relationship. You are not like my stbx  If he was capable of taking your advice, i'd be willing to work on things.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

It's a very, very hard choice. Especially when there are kids involved, when everything else in the relationship is going fine. 

A lot of times I will be ok and accepting but then I'll go through a spell of just really, really wanting sex. I fantasize about it all day, dream about it. Since I can't go to H with it, I end up fantasizing about someone else. That gets dangerous.
But after a while of that it will settle back down into acceptance and I'll be fine. 

Being on meds helps my drive stay in the acceptance stage more often and I can focus on everything else. 

I don't know what my breaking point would be. We've gone years having sex only a couple times. Right now we are only at a month without but I have made the choice to just keep sex out of our marriage as it's the only area where we just don't work so I'm trying to just get to where I'd be ok with not having sex, potentially ever again, and deal with that and maintain a loving connection without it. I struggle with that too, with even cuddling and kissing him knowing there's a wall there. 

He really doesn't care either way. If sex was easy to obtain and available he'd do it. If not he's perfectly happy with just watching porn.


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> So going back to my OP, do you think you would have a breaking point where enough is enough, or really any idea what that breaking point would be? Just curious, do you have a deadline since 8 months have already passed? I would just worry that you are doing all these things feel are necessary to get things back on track, and if she doesn't eventually reciprocate then you will just grow more resentful (I know in the past I did develop some resentment).


I think about what my breaking point might be quite often. I have not put any specific time deadline on it because it's a heavy enough issue on it's own, I don't think adding an artificial deadline would help much. I think my breaking point would be when I become convinced that she has completely lost interest in me as a romantic partner and it's not coming back and she is unwilling to do the required work to agree on a plan for a mutually enjoyable sex life. At that point she would essentially be telling me that she wants the life that our marriage provides but she doesn't really want the marriage itself. As great and important as our family life with our kids is, I just can't imagine lying in bed every night for the rest of my life next to a woman who has no interest in having any form of romance, passion, intimacy or sex with me.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

GoodFunLife said:


> I think about what my breaking point might be quite often. I have not put any specific time deadline on it because it's a heavy enough issue on it's own, I don't think adding an artificial deadline would help much. I think my breaking point would be when I become convinced that she has completely lost interest in me as a romantic partner and it's not coming back and she is unwilling to do the required work to agree on a plan for a mutually enjoyable sex life. At that point she would essentially be telling me that she wants the life that our marriage provides but she doesn't really want the marriage itself. As great and important as our family life with our kids is, I just can't imagine lying in bed every night for the rest of my life next to a woman who has no interest in having any form of romance, passion, intimacy or sex with me.



Or the moment you realize they never did. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

I got to the point in my marriage just over a year ago where sex was maybe 12x/yr. my wife said she was fine just the way it is/was. Even with two girls still in primary school, I told my wife if she wants that kind of sex life by all means, you can have it. I on the other hand need more so maybe we should consider going our separate ways. 

I had been working hard on my issues (cleaning my side of the street), losing weight, spending more time with my girls, helping more with homework, cooking and cleaning. 
I knew I could not only survive being single, but would probably thrive. 
As I lost weight and started putting on more muscle, dressing better and being more confident, I noticed a lot more women taking notice when I was around. 
I had looked up and researched divorce where I live, looked through classifieds for apartments and even browsed through dating websites (no account, just weighing my options). 
So what happened? My wife didn't want to split, she stepped up the sex, I kept on working my self improvement in all areas. 
I worked hard on myself and continue to do so. Gym 3-4 X/wk, cook healthier meals, take care of things right away and most importantly, I stepped back into the leadership role I relinquished years ago for no apparent reason. 
Our sex life is now better than when we were dating. My wife initiates 76-85% of the time. When I get turned down for sex it's not a big deal. I know it will happen soon. 
I have reverted back to the guy I was that she first fell for. I have a life, she's more than welcome to join me but if not, I'll do what I have to anyway. 
If your sex life is that bad, I would suggest looking at and fixing your own side of the street and not play the blame game. I read somewhere before, the stay plan is the same as the go plan. That said, if the sh!t hits the fan again, I'm more than ready to go my own way. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I am the same guy she married 30 years ago. Just smarter, better educated, wealthier by a lot, with a great career. I kept my looks good - 20 lb more than I was at age 18... And most of that was dorm food  I raised two great girls that are both in top ten universities. And provided sage career advice and support to her. I have an awesome personality and know how to have fun. I can cycle 35 miles and drive my Mini Cooper close to its limits. I'm not a stuffy suit and have most of my long curly gray hair.

It hasn't mattered one bit. A lot of times it does, but here in the dregs of TAM you see the dark side. Where nothing works including a divorce threat.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

sixty-eight said:


> you inspired me jb, to drop a sort of martyr complex and move on. There is no good and no honor in holding on for nothing, for the children. It doesn't benefit them in the long run.
> 
> I remember asking you a bunch of questions once and realizing you lived a catch 22, damned if you do, damned if you don't.


I'm not so sure that I would qualify for a martyr. I simply weighed the things that the courts would let me do vs. those I could financially handle and what I did is really the only thing that made sense. Sure I could have left, but my wife would get all the money and would probably stop me as much as she could from seeing the kids. I didn't want that and as bad as it looks, what I have now is the best of the situations I have available to me. If I had a choice, sure I would have moved on, but I didn't because I couldn't. I'm glad that you had that chance and apparently you're going to take it.


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

john117 said:


> I am the same guy she married 30 years ago. Just smarter, better educated, wealthier by a lot, with a great career. I kept my looks good - 20 lb more than I was at age 18... And most of that was dorm food  I raised two great girls that are both in top ten universities. And provided sage career advice and support to her. I have an awesome personality and know how to have fun. I can cycle 35 miles and drive my Mini Cooper close to its limits. I'm not a stuffy suit and have most of my long curly gray hair.
> 
> It hasn't mattered one bit. A lot of times it does, but here in the dregs of TAM you see the dark side. Where nothing works including a divorce threat.



And that my friend is reason enough to pull the pin and truly enjoy the rest of your life. 


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That's the plan. I had hoped for a more dramatic and catastrophic (not for me ) finale but have settled for a more civil and informed approach.


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

john117 said:


> That's the plan. I had hoped for a more dramatic and catastrophic (not for me ) finale but have settled for a more civil and informed approach.



So when is the happy day going to be??


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

May 2017...


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> I'm not so sure that I would qualify for a martyr. I simply weighed the things that the courts would let me do vs. those I could financially handle and what I did is really the only thing that made sense. Sure I could have left, but my wife would get all the money and would probably stop me as much as she could from seeing the kids. I didn't want that and as bad as it looks, what I have now is the best of the situations I have available to me. If I had a choice, sure I would have moved on, but I didn't because I couldn't. I'm glad that you had that chance and apparently you're going to take it.


well, i meant _i _had a complex. That there was honor in staying for the kids, to keep the family together.

You stayed for the kids, and regret it. You seem to say that everyone might have been better off if you had gotten out long ago, when your kids were little. And i can see that would be true for me as well. The more you have, the harder it seems to be to divide it.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

john117 said:


> May 2017...


What's significant about waiting another year and a half? Or is it arbitrary?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Personal said:


> So a lack of sex isn't your breaking point.


Sex could be more plentiful, but its long term concerns that can't be fixed regardless of sex. To a great extent I feel this has been a pretty good eye opener for what's coming in another 5 or 10 years.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

sixty-eight said:


> What's significant about waiting another year and a half? Or is it arbitrary?


Younger daughter graduating from her -rather pricy even after lots of scholarships- college


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

Not exactly sure where my breaking point is, just know that I am getting closer and closer to you it everyday. It isn't the lack of sex so much as it is the fact that I have been replaced with porn and his minimizing the issue and dismissing my feelings just to protect his own ego.

It is bad enough knowing that your partner prefers porn over you, but then trying to tell you that you shouldn't be upset about it just adds salt to the wound.

Leaving is the first thing I think about when I wake up and the last thing I think about when I go to sleep.


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