# New here - trying to prevent divorce on my own



## Time2Change_IA

Hello and happy holidays from Iowa!

I recently found this site and want to share my situation. Once I provide some detail I realize that my story is similar to many, and the ability to post here has a therapeutic effect as we’re still “going public” and wanted to wait until after the holidays - however she told her sister today so in her family it will travel like wildfire. I don’t know if this thread will turn into journaling for me or not, and I’m looking forward to insight from others here who aren’t emotionally invested in my scenario.

*Too long - didn’t read:*
Married 15 years, together 19 and wife just asked for divorce. I don’t want a divorce and want to work on myself to see if I can change the dynamics of the marriage. We still live together so I feel I have a 50/50 chance of saving it. I’ve self diagnosed myself as Type A (and probably D) personality, with INTJ personality type so I struggle with many things including my emotions. I also think I have some abandonment issues from childhood which doesn’t help me connect. 

*Long version:*

My wife and I have been together for almost 20 years and through that time have been through a lot. We have two children and have created a stable, comfortable life for ourselves however we would both admit that we’ve had our share of ups and downs, and have never been great at communicating through our problems. We both have issues and baggage that prevent us from communicating well, and while she’s been seeing a therapist for over a year, I haven’t been and we’ve never seen a marriage counselor for more than a few months. There hasn’t been infidelity although there was a 2 week period in 2014 where she interacted with a car salesman through text and some phone calls - she called it off and admitted to me what had happened. She stated she was lonely and he was paying attention to her and complimenting her (she stays home) and she realized it was wrong and that he was only interested in sex. For the last several years we’ve been “treading water” for lack of a better term, as with relocating to be closer to her mother, the passing of her mother, COVID and a work transition for me there’s always been something to take center stage. I’m not sure what happened recently to move us to this point, but something has.

Fast forward to December 8th. We were watching a show after the kids were in bed and I noticed she was on her phone (which isn’t uncommon) but every time I would get close to her she would flip it over. I’d also noticed recently that she seems to be dimming the screen at night (we don’t sit next to each other) which to me seemed suspicious. I asked her if there was anything I needed to know, was something going on or was there someone else - she stated no, put her phone down and left it at that. This was concerning as the response I expected was something along the lines of there’s no one else, I shouldn’t think that way or worry, and that she has something going on (friends, etc.) that’s taking her attention. My concern was lack of a fight or justification and as I thought about it over the next 24 hours I decided to have a talk.

On December 9th we talked for nearly an hour. I started by discussing what happened the night before, but that my concern wasn’t about someone else as her lack of fight or justification when I asked. She said there wasn’t anyone else, however she’s been unhappy for quite a while and thinks it would be better for us to divorce. She said that we’ve tried for years and while we’ve had our ups and downs, she doesn’t think I’ll ever change and isn’t interested in trying any longer as nothing will change. She also said that due to our different parenting styles (more on that in a moment) we would each be better parents if we were apart. I told her I agree with her and that neither of us seem happy, however we’ve been together for nearly 20 years and I don’t want to throw away our time or our family. I offered to table everything through the holidays and the kids going back to school in January, then re-convene at the beginning of February (it doesn’t seem to work that way). If we need to sell the house there’s a few “projects” I need to finish and we could look to put the house on the market in March if things don’t work out. I didn’t ask for her commitment to work on the marriage or to see a marriage counselor, just to give it some time.

Of course it didn’t work to leave things alone until February . I immediately started thinking through what was happening and what I wanted from the relationship, and decided I wanted to stay married. 

I went online searching for answers and here’s what I have for a game plan -

I can’t change her mind. Trying to convince her to stay, or begging/pleading/guilting her will backfire. What I can do is work on myself and change the dynamics of the relationship. Focus on what I can control and what I believe she wants, but more importantly focus on what I need to work on to make myself a better person and father going forward. The hope is she will begin to feel differently over time and we may be able to save our marriage, but if not I’ll be a better person going forward. 

She has a therapist and I asked her to get a recommendation for me from her therapist, as I would assume her therapist has a good idea of what I need to work on, if only from my wife’s perspective. My wife had an appointment on the 14th (she goes every 2 weeks) and got a recommendation. 

The week of the 12th wasn’t overly eventful - I started helping with dinner and the chores, took the kids Christmas shopping getting them out of the house for her, and I planned a “date night” on the 16th. Casual conversation with her found that she was enjoying what she was seeing, but kept taking it back to she was leaving. On the 19th I was emotional during the day and shared it with her before bed - I’m heartbroken thinking about what this will do to our children. From then on I’ve kept my emotions in check as I know she doesn’t want to see someone who’s needy, clingy and emotional. 

Here’s what I’ve done and where we’re at -

I read I need to work on myself and make myself a better person physically (dress, physique, etc.), intellectually, emotionally (behavior) and spiritually. This has helped me to be more engaged with her through conversation (not about our problems) around the news, a show we’re watching, her friends, etc., as we have longer and deeper conversations. We are sleeping together (not sexually) and instead of being on our phones we’ve had several nights where we lay in the dark and just talk - sometimes over an hour. I’m practicing being an engaged active listener and refrain from talking about our relationship as much as possible.

I’ve been working on my relationship with my son - it’s a deeper issue but impactful to our relationship as I wasn’t around my father much growing up. This impacts my ability to connect with my son or do “father/son” activities - and the relationship with my daughter is much different which isn’t healthy. We’ve been spending time together without anyone else, I had a heart to heart with him sharing things I’ve experienced, and our relationship has changed significantly over the last 2 weeks. My wife and I have discussed the impacts of this imbalance on our marriage.

On Monday the 13th, in the afternoon while we were talking over lunch, she put her head down and seemed emotional. I asked what was wrong as she said that it wasn’t fair that I was going to see a therapist “and would be fixed before her”. She brought up the divorce and the costs associated with an attorney - she stated she doesn’t want it to be expensive and that she’s talked with divorce lawyers (I didn’t press or ask when) but that several have a retainer of $3,500 and she doesn’t want to waste our savings on a lawyer.

I’ve noticed my wife seems happy, is smiling and laughing more, and is very willing to communicate. She’s still thoughtful as Thursday her and my daughter were out and she texted offering to bring me a treat (I work from home). I thanked her but said no, then she responded with the type of treat and that I would like it (one of my favorites) and I accepted.

Yesterday I shared a list of my behaviors that I think contributed to the situation we’re in and I think it was well received (internet advice). I did it in a nonchalant fact finding way. I shared what I had learned about myself, some high-level thoughts about how my childhood could have influenced me, and what behaviors I saw as impacting our relationship. I broke down the impacts for her and I, my son and I, and my daughter and I (I can provide detail if needed). I didn’t mention anything about what she had done, I didn’t make any promises or ask if she noticed a change, only that I wanted her input and feedback. She did offer one piece of feedback that I immediately wrote down as it was constructive. The conversation lasted about an hour and was interesting. First, she went back to her emotional affair in 2014 again apologizing, telling me she knew it was wrong, and it only happened as she was lonely and he paid attention to her and told her she was pretty. “I don’t need much in life” she said. Then she went on to tell me she's a very forgiving person - ?. I didn’t understand that. Then she told me that she was doing this so that I didn’t leave her when we are older and she’s no longer desirable - this last comment was interesting. I listened intently but didn’t say anything to her. Later last night I accidentally kissed her during a positive experience in from of our kids (she gave me a gift) and then about an hour later, as she was changing into our Christmas Eve pajamas (tradition) she made a comment about wanting to eventually get her breasts augmented and it’s too bad I was going to miss out on that - again I found this to be a strange comment.

What I find interesting is that we now have a great time together, laughing and carrying on, her being competitive and giving me a hard time, then out of the blue she’ll do a “180” bringing up the divorce. I don’t know if this is self preservation when she’s enjoying herself and gets scared? My plan is to keep doing what I’ve been doing - even if the marriage fails I will have learned a lot about myself, will be working on my issues and will be a better parent. However, this didn’t break overnight so if she does begin to see a difference, and has confidence it will last, this may take time.

Thoughts?


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## Prodigal

I'll give you my 2 cents as a woman. When a woman mentions divorce and says she's done trying, believe her. She's done. Sorry.


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## jonty30

Time2Change_IA said:


> Hello and happy holidays from Iowa!
> 
> I recently found this site and want to share my situation. Once I provide some detail I realize that my story is similar to many, and the ability to post here has a therapeutic effect as we’re still “going public” and wanted to wait until after the holidays - however she told her sister today so in her family it will travel like wildfire. I don’t know if this thread will turn into journaling for me or not, and I’m looking forward to insight from others here who aren’t emotionally invested in my scenario.
> 
> *Too long - didn’t read:*
> Married 15 years, together 19 and wife just asked for divorce. I don’t want a divorce and want to work on myself to see if I can change the dynamics of the marriage. We still live together so I feel I have a 50/50 chance of saving it. I’ve self diagnosed myself as Type A (and probably D) personality, with INTJ personality type so I struggle with many things including my emotions. I also think I have some abandonment issues from childhood which doesn’t help me connect.
> 
> *Long version:*
> 
> My wife and I have been together for almost 20 years and through that time have been through a lot. We have two children and have created a stable, comfortable life for ourselves however we would both admit that we’ve had our share of ups and downs, and have never been great at communicating through our problems. We both have issues and baggage that prevent us from communicating well, and while she’s been seeing a therapist for over a year, I haven’t been and we’ve never seen a marriage counselor for more than a few months. There hasn’t been infidelity although there was a 2 week period in 2014 where she interacted with a car salesman through text and some phone calls - she called it off and admitted to me what had happened. She stated she was lonely and he was paying attention to her and complimenting her (she stays home) and she realized it was wrong and that he was only interested in sex. For the last several years we’ve been “treading water” for lack of a better term, as with relocating to be closer to her mother, the passing of her mother, COVID and a work transition for me there’s always been something to take center stage. I’m not sure what happened recently to move us to this point, but something has.
> 
> Fast forward to December 8th. We were watching a show after the kids were in bed and I noticed she was on her phone (which isn’t uncommon) but every time I would get close to her she would flip it over. I’d also noticed recently that she seems to be dimming the screen at night (we don’t sit next to each other) which to me seemed suspicious. I asked her if there was anything I needed to know, was something going on or was there someone else - she stated no, put her phone down and left it at that. This was concerning as the response I expected was something along the lines of there’s no one else, I shouldn’t think that way or worry, and that she has something going on (friends, etc.) that’s taking her attention. My concern was lack of a fight or justification and as I thought about it over the next 24 hours I decided to have a talk.
> 
> On December 9th we talked for nearly an hour. I started by discussing what happened the night before, but that my concern wasn’t about someone else as her lack of fight or justification when I asked. She said there wasn’t anyone else, however she’s been unhappy for quite a while and thinks it would be better for us to divorce. She said that we’ve tried for years and while we’ve had our ups and downs, she doesn’t think I’ll ever change and isn’t interested in trying any longer as nothing will change. She also said that due to our different parenting styles (more on that in a moment) we would each be better parents if we were apart. I told her I agree with her and that neither of us seem happy, however we’ve been together for nearly 20 years and I don’t want to throw away our time or our family. I offered to table everything through the holidays and the kids going back to school in January, then re-convene at the beginning of February (it doesn’t seem to work that way). If we need to sell the house there’s a few “projects” I need to finish and we could look to put the house on the market in March if things don’t work out. I didn’t ask for her commitment to work on the marriage or to see a marriage counselor, just to give it some time.
> 
> Of course it didn’t work to leave things alone until February . I immediately started thinking through what was happening and what I wanted from the relationship, and decided I wanted to stay married.
> 
> I went online searching for answers and here’s what I have for a game plan -
> 
> I can’t change her mind. Trying to convince her to stay, or begging/pleading/guilting her will backfire. What I can do is work on myself and change the dynamics of the relationship. Focus on what I can control and what I believe she wants, but more importantly focus on what I need to work on to make myself a better person and father going forward. The hope is she will begin to feel differently over time and we may be able to save our marriage, but if not I’ll be a better person going forward.
> 
> She has a therapist and I asked her to get a recommendation for me from her therapist, as I would assume her therapist has a good idea of what I need to work on, if only from my wife’s perspective. My wife had an appointment on the 14th (she goes every 2 weeks) and got a recommendation.
> 
> The week of the 12th wasn’t overly eventful - I started helping with dinner and the chores, took the kids Christmas shopping getting them out of the house for her, and I planned a “date night” on the 16th. Casual conversation with her found that she was enjoying what she was seeing, but kept taking it back to she was leaving. On the 19th I was emotional during the day and shared it with her before bed - I’m heartbroken thinking about what this will do to our children. From then on I’ve kept my emotions in check as I know she doesn’t want to see someone who’s needy, clingy and emotional.
> 
> Here’s what I’ve done and where we’re at -
> 
> I read I need to work on myself and make myself a better person physically (dress, physique, etc.), intellectually, emotionally (behavior) and spiritually. This has helped me to be more engaged with her through conversation (not about our problems) around the news, a show we’re watching, her friends, etc., as we have longer and deeper conversations. We are sleeping together (not sexually) and instead of being on our phones we’ve had several nights where we lay in the dark and just talk - sometimes over an hour. I’m practicing being an engaged active listener and refrain from talking about our relationship as much as possible.
> 
> I’ve been working on my relationship with my son - it’s a deeper issue but impactful to our relationship as I wasn’t around my father much growing up. This impacts my ability to connect with my son or do “father/son” activities - and the relationship with my daughter is much different which isn’t healthy. We’ve been spending time together without anyone else, I had a heart to heart with him sharing things I’ve experienced, and our relationship has changed significantly over the last 2 weeks. My wife and I have discussed the impacts of this imbalance on our marriage.
> 
> On Monday the 13th, in the afternoon while we were talking over lunch, she put her head down and seemed emotional. I asked what was wrong as she said that it wasn’t fair that I was going to see a therapist “and would be fixed before her”. She brought up the divorce and the costs associated with an attorney - she stated she doesn’t want it to be expensive and that she’s talked with divorce lawyers (I didn’t press or ask when) but that several have a retainer of $3,500 and she doesn’t want to waste our savings on a lawyer.
> 
> I’ve noticed my wife seems happy, is smiling and laughing more, and is very willing to communicate. She’s still thoughtful as Thursday her and my daughter were out and she texted offering to bring me a treat (I work from home). I thanked her but said no, then she responded with the type of treat and that I would like it (one of my favorites) and I accepted.
> 
> Yesterday I shared a list of my behaviors that I think contributed to the situation we’re in and I think it was well received (internet advice). I did it in a nonchalant fact finding way. I shared what I had learned about myself, some high-level thoughts about how my childhood could have influenced me, and what behaviors I saw as impacting our relationship. I broke down the impacts for her and I, my son and I, and my daughter and I (I can provide detail if needed). I didn’t mention anything about what she had done, I didn’t make any promises or ask if she noticed a change, only that I wanted her input and feedback. She did offer one piece of feedback that I immediately wrote down as it was constructive. The conversation lasted about an hour and was interesting. First, she went back to her emotional affair in 2014 again apologizing, telling me she knew it was wrong, and it only happened as she was lonely and he paid attention to her and told her she was pretty. “I don’t need much in life” she said. Then she went on to tell me she's a very forgiving person - ?. I didn’t understand that. Then she told me that she was doing this so that I didn’t leave her when we are older and she’s no longer desirable - this last comment was interesting. I listened intently but didn’t say anything to her. Later last night I accidentally kissed her during a positive experience in from of our kids (she gave me a gift) and then about an hour later, as she was changing into our Christmas Eve pajamas (tradition) she made a comment about wanting to eventually get her breasts augmented and it’s too bad I was going to miss out on that - again I found this to be a strange comment.
> 
> What I find interesting is that we now have a great time together, laughing and carrying on, her being competitive and giving me a hard time, then out of the blue she’ll do a “180” bringing up the divorce. I don’t know if this is self preservation when she’s enjoying herself and gets scared? My plan is to keep doing what I’ve been doing - even if the marriage fails I will have learned a lot about myself, will be working on my issues and will be a better parent. However, this didn’t break overnight so if she does begin to see a difference, and has confidence it will last, this may take time.
> 
> Thoughts?


She would need to know that you'll be doing these out of habit and not because you're trying to win her back. 
If she thinks that you're doing these things to try and win her back, she will think that you'll go back to your old ways the moment that you supposedly have won her back.

Even if you have lost her, it's good to do those things out of principle, win or lose.


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## Time2Change_IA

Prodigal said:


> I'll give you my 2 cents as a woman. When a woman mentions divorce and says she's done trying, believe her. She's done. Sorry.


Thanks for your input! I don’t disagree and I’m setting my course to be a better person for me and my children. If something changes I will welcome it but I’m taking this opportunity to make positive changes in my life. There’s so much going on right now with my emotions and learning it’s confusing. As she’s started telling her family I feel things will now start progressing and once she tells our children it will move quickly.


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## Time2Change_IA

jonty30 said:


> She would need to know that you'll be doing these out of habit and not because you're trying to win her back.
> If she thinks that you're doing these things to try and win her back, she will think that you'll go back to your old ways the moment that you supposedly have won her back.
> 
> Even if you have lost her, it's good to do those things out of principle, win or lose.


Thank you.
It takes time to build a habit and even longer for someone who’s skeptical to believe it’s real change. I’m open to advice and feel I’m on the right path at the present time.


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## Landofblue

I like the things you are doing, but I get a strong sense there is someone else. Is there a way for you to find out?


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## manfromlamancha

I also agree that there are strong indications that there is someone else which has given her the encouragement to proceed with the divorce. You need to investigate. Also tell us more about her affair in 2014.


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## Mr.Married

Look up the cell phone records


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## Tested_by_stress

She is lying about there being nobody else.


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## Time2Change_IA

manfromlamancha said:


> I also agree that there are strong indications that there is someone else which has given her the encouragement to proceed with the divorce. You need to investigate. Also tell us more about her affair in 2014.


Several have asked this question so I'll attempt to answer all at once.

It's certainly possible there is someone else romantically, but I don't suspect that's the case right now. 

From an encouragement perspective - I definitely think there is. She has a very close friend (male, gay) who I believe is helping her down this path. He doesn't live locally but they've been friends for years and they've spent a lot of time on the phone over the last few months. My opinion is he has issues with relationships and lives for drama - I've never felt he was a good influence on her but that's not something I can change. I was able to overhear parts of their conversation after our talk on the 9th and it seemed that no matter what she said about our conversation (in a positive light) he kept discounting what I was doing, saying it wouldn't last, etc.


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## Erudite

Here is the thing about good friends. They can be fiercely protective. If she has a close friend who thinks you have hurt her in the past they are going to remain skeptical. That's what good friends do. You can't try to separate them either.

You chose to commit to this marriage. So there is nothing you can do about outside influences. I would advise that you consider whether or not your wife is serious when she talks about divorce. No papers have been filed, no one has moved out. Don't let divorce be used to manipulate you.

It's great that you are working on you. But don't forget that marriage is a 2 way street. You have needs and wants too. It's okay to expect a certain level of reciprocation.


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## oldshirt

Time2Change_IA said:


> There hasn’t been infidelity although there was a 2 week period in 2014 where she interacted with a car salesman through text and some phone calls - she called it off and admitted to me what had happened. She stated she was lonely and he was paying attention to her and complimenting her (she stays home) and she realized it was wrong and that he was only interested in sex.


Women typically don't realise the other man (OM) is only in it for the sex until AFTER they have had sex........numerous times. 

And here's a newsflash - cheater lie. 

Assuming that you aren't abusive, aren't an alcoholic/drug addict, chronically unemployed or haven't essentially abandoned her and the kids, the chances of there not being another person in the picture are quite low. I didn't catch the ages of the kids, but assuming they are still minors, mothers of minor children rarely just up and leave the fathers of their children unless there is abuse, alcoholism, abandonment, chronic unemployment or another person in the picture. 

Does it happen? Sure, it happens sometimes. But you have to ask yourself if you are really the exception or are you part of the rule. 

Whether she is or whether she isn't involved with someone else, you need to be able to defend yourself here. You need to be able to advocate for yourself and be able to protect your property, assets and relationship with your children. 

It's great that you are doing some soul-searching and self improvement. But what often happens is guys will start acting like the perfect husband for a few weeks, starting thinking they are saving the marriage, and then let their guard down and get taken to the cleaners when she runs off with the OM and empties out the bank accounts and takes the kids with her and in the divorce petition he is being asked for alimony and full child support and the kitchen sink....... and in the mean time he is still buying roses and fixing that dripping fawcet she has been nagging him about for 6 months. 

Protect yourself first. She is waaaaay ahead of you here. She has been thinking about, planning and working on this for YEARS. Your story begins Dec 8th. I'm here to tell you this has really been in the works for many years on her end. 

You are approaching this with date nights and foot rubs and talks in the dark. 

She on the other hand has been discussing this with a counselor (who is on HER side) seeing lawyers, pricing lawyers and court costs, making arraingments for support with family etc etc. 

Do you see the disparity here?????

You need to take this VEEEEERRRYYYYY seriously and start kicking it into high gear immediately or you will get taken to the cleaners. 

At best the divorce laws and legal climate and social climate are all very heavily weighted towards the woman to begin with. If your approach to this situation is buying more flowers and planning more date nights and doing a better job of loading and unloading the dishwasher, you are going to get stompled. 

You need to get with an attorney ASAP just in order to understand your rights and responsibilities in a divorce and know what you need to do to protect yourself, because I guarantee you in court that the flowers and foot rubs now are not going to help you one iota when the court starts determining how much child support and alimony you're going to pay and how often you will be "allowed" to see your kids and how much of your property and financial accounts you will be allowed to keep.


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## Blondilocks

Make a vow to yourself to never pay for her new tits.


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## oldshirt

Blondilocks said:


> Make a vow to yourself to never pay for her new tits.



no doubt!! 

She has already stated to your face that you will get no benefit from her new hooters.


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## oldshirt

Time2Change_IA said:


> Fast forward to December 8th. We were watching a show after the kids were in bed and I noticed she was on her phone (which isn’t uncommon) but every time I would get close to her she would flip it over. I’d also noticed recently that she seems to be dimming the screen at night (we don’t sit next to each other) which to me seemed suspicious. I asked her if there was anything I needed to know, was something going on or was there someone else - she stated no, put her phone down and left it at that. This was concerning as the response I expected was something along the lines of there’s no one else, I shouldn’t think that way or worry, and that she has something going on (friends, etc.) that’s taking her attention. My concern was lack of a fight or justification and as I thought about it over the next 24 hours I decided to have a talk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She has a therapist and I asked her to get a recommendation for me from her therapist, as I would assume her therapist has a good idea of what I need to work on, if only from my wife’s perspective. My wife had an appointment on the 14th (she goes every 2 weeks) and got a recommendation.
> 
> The week of the 12th wasn’t overly eventful - I started helping with dinner and the chores, took the kids Christmas shopping getting them out of the house for her, and I planned a “date night” on the 16th. Casual conversation with her found that she was enjoying what she was seeing, but kept taking it back to she was leaving. .
> 
> Here’s what I’ve done and where we’re at -
> 
> I read I need to work on myself and make myself a better person physically (dress, physique, etc.), intellectually, emotionally (behavior) and spiritually. This has helped me to be more engaged with her through conversation (not about our problems) around the news, a show we’re watching, her friends, etc., as we have longer and deeper conversations. We are sleeping together (not sexually) and instead of being on our phones we’ve had several nights where we lay in the dark and just talk - sometimes over an hour. I’m practicing being an engaged active listener and refrain from talking about our relationship as much as possible.
> 
> 
> On Monday the 13th, in the afternoon while we were talking over lunch, she put her head down and seemed emotional. I asked what was wrong as she said that it wasn’t fair that I was going to see a therapist “and would be fixed before her”. She brought up the divorce and the costs associated with an attorney - she stated she doesn’t want it to be expensive and that she’s talked with divorce lawyers (I didn’t press or ask when) but that several have a retainer of $3,500 and she doesn’t want to waste our savings on a lawyer.
> 
> I’ve noticed my wife seems happy, is smiling and laughing more, and is very willing to communicate. She’s still thoughtful as Thursday her and my daughter were out and she texted offering to bring me a treat (I work from home). I thanked her but said no, then she responded with the type of treat and that I would like it (one of my favorites) and I accepted.
> 
> Yesterday I shared a list of my behaviors that I think contributed to the situation we’re in and I think it was well received (internet advice). I did it in a nonchalant fact finding way. I shared what I had learned about myself, some high-level thoughts about how my childhood could have influenced me, and what behaviors I saw as impacting our relationship. I broke down the impacts for her and I, my son and I, and my daughter and I (I can provide detail if needed). I didn’t mention anything about what she had done, I didn’t make any promises or ask if she noticed a change, only that I wanted her input and feedback. She did offer one piece of feedback that I immediately wrote down as it was constructive.
> 
> 
> The conversation lasted about an hour and was interesting. First, she went back to her emotional affair in 2014 again apologizing, telling me she knew it was wrong, and it only happened as she was lonely and he paid attention to her and told her she was pretty. “I don’t need much in life” she said. Then she went on to tell me she's a very forgiving person - ?. I didn’t understand that. Then she told me that she was doing this so that I didn’t leave her when we are older and she’s no longer desirable - this last comment was interesting. I listened intently but didn’t say anything to her. Later last night I accidentally kissed her during a positive experience in from of our kids (she gave me a gift) and then about an hour later, as she was changing into our Christmas Eve pajamas (tradition) she made a comment about wanting to eventually get her breasts augmented and it’s too bad I was going to miss out on that - again I found this to be a strange comment.
> 
> What I find interesting is that we now have a great time together, laughing and carrying on, her being competitive and giving me a hard time, then out of the blue she’ll do a “180” bringing up the divorce. I don’t know if this is self preservation when she’s enjoying herself and gets scared?
> 
> Thoughts?


I have condensed a few of your interactions with her down and I want to point something out for you to think about here. 

Take a look at and read what you have written above. 

As I read through that, what I am starting to see from what you have written about her is that this sounds like the way a woman would talk to a "friend." ...... not a lover. Not a BF. Not to a loving spouse where there was still romantic/sexual chemistry. But to a buddy or guy friend. 

I know you think you are making progress and even some of the posters on this site will think that becoming friends will be a positive step in the right direction. 

However, taken as a whole, I think this is actually more of an ominous sign than initially obvious. I see you as being in the Friend Zone and appear to be digging yourself deeper into the Friend Zone. 

She's been enjoying the attention and companionship and what I am assuming as you doing more work around the house.... but yet when you try to steer things a little more personal or intimate, she brings it back around to the fact she is planning on divorce. This is exactly what chicks do with their orbiters that they have in the Friend Zone. 

Has she ever told you in so many words or even the exact words of, " I Love You But Not In Love With You"? 
That is abbreviated as as ILYBNILWY) and it is a thing. It almost universally means that she appreciates the goods and services you provide and think you are a good person and she benefits from your companionship and attention...... but she does not have romantic/sexual feelings or desire for you. And almost as universally it also usually means that she has romantic/sexual feelings for someone(s) else. 

She seems to be interacting with you the way she would a coworker or family friend or some other guy in her social or family circle for whom she may like on a person-to-person basis but has no romantic/sexual feelings or desire for. 

I think part of the reason you found her reaction to you asking about her phone interaction was so strange, is because she reacted the way a person would react to some guy at work asking who she was texting so much, which would be just kind of a matter-of-fact response with no greater emotional investment. .......In otherwords, she doesn't care what you think and is not invested in trying to even convince you she isn't screwing around. She just sees it as none of your business who she is chatting with or what the topic of conversation is about. 

Her telling you about the boob job is also very damning IMHO. She's matter-of-fact telling you she wants a boob job like she would tell a cousin or some guy at work that she shoots the shyt with, but then taunts you with the disclaimer that you aren't going to touch them and they won't be for your benefit at all. 

That's how women treat orbiters in their friend zone. That is not how they interact with men they desire or want to have relationships with. 

The trouble here is going from the Friend Zone to a mutually happy and healthy intimate relationship is actually harder than less successful than beginning at ground zero in meeting a person. People have better luck meeting a new person and beginning the dating process than they do turning a Friend Zone into an intimate relationship. Multiply that times 100 if it is within a long term relationship that has turned sour and someone is already raising the divorce flag. 

What you are seeing as progress and hope, may actually be additional nails into the coffin of your marriage.


----------



## Time2Change_IA

Erudite said:


> Here is the thing about good friends. They can be fiercely protective. If she has a close friend who thinks you have hurt her in the past they are going to remain skeptical. That's what good friends do. You can't try to separate them either.
> 
> You chose to commit to this marriage. So there is nothing you can do about outside influences. I would advise that you consider whether or not your wife is serious when she talks about divorce. No papers have been filed, no one has moved out. Don't let divorce be used to manipulate you.
> 
> It's great that you are working on you. But don't forget that marriage is a 2 way street. You have needs and wants too. It's okay to expect a certain level of reciprocation.


Thank you.

I believe she is serious and is waiting for the holiday to be over - our children are unaware which is likely the next step. I think things will start to progress over the next week and will continue to work on me while remaining aware of manipulation.


----------



## Time2Change_IA

oldshirt said:


> Women typically don't realise the other man (OM) is only in it for the sex until AFTER they have had sex........numerous times.
> 
> And here's a newsflash - cheater lie.
> 
> Assuming that you aren't abusive, aren't an alcoholic/drug addict, chronically unemployed or haven't essentially abandoned her and the kids, the chances of there not being another person in the picture are quite low. I didn't catch the ages of the kids, but assuming they are still minors, mothers of minor children rarely just up and leave the fathers of their children unless there is abuse, alcoholism, abandonment, chronic unemployment or another person in the picture.
> 
> Does it happen? Sure, it happens sometimes. But you have to ask yourself if you are really the exception or are you part of the rule.
> 
> Whether she is or whether she isn't involved with someone else, you need to be able to defend yourself here. You need to be able to advocate for yourself and be able to protect your property, assets and relationship with your children.
> 
> It's great that you are doing some soul-searching and self improvement. But what often happens is guys will start acting like the perfect husband for a few weeks, starting thinking they are saving the marriage, and then let their guard down and get taken to the cleaners when she runs off with the OM and empties out the bank accounts and takes the kids with her and in the divorce petition he is being asked for alimony and full child support and the kitchen sink....... and in the mean time he is still buying roses and fixing that dripping fawcet she has been nagging him about for 6 months.
> 
> Protect yourself first. She is waaaaay ahead of you here. She has been thinking about, planning and working on this for YEARS. Your story begins Dec 8th. I'm here to tell you this has really been in the works for many years on her end.
> 
> You are approaching this with date nights and foot rubs and talks in the dark.
> 
> She on the other hand has been discussing this with a counselor (who is on HER side) seeing lawyers, pricing lawyers and court costs, making arraingments for support with family etc etc.
> 
> Do you see the disparity here?????
> 
> You need to take this VEEEEERRRYYYYY seriously and start kicking it into high gear immediately or you will get taken to the cleaners.
> 
> At best the divorce laws and legal climate and social climate are all very heavily weighted towards the woman to begin with. If your approach to this situation is buying more flowers and planning more date nights and doing a better job of loading and unloading the dishwasher, you are going to get stompled.
> 
> You need to get with an attorney ASAP just in order to understand your rights and responsibilities in a divorce and know what you need to do to protect yourself, because I guarantee you in court that the flowers and foot rubs now are not going to help you one iota when the court starts determining how much child support and alimony you're going to pay and how often you will be "allowed" to see your kids and how much of your property and financial accounts you will be allowed to keep.


This is great advice and something I've been pondering over the last few days. There is disparity and you're right - she's likely been planning this for some time.

Kids are minors, with the oldest being 14. There is no abuse, alcoholism, gambling, etc. and she did mention a conversation with her therapist about how this makes it more difficult without those behaviors. We have a financial disadvantage - she's been staying at home for more than 5 years so doesn't have an income other than some part time work she does. She did mention she's concerned that she can't keep the house as she would need to refinance it and can't without income - she even asked if I would allow her to live her and pay me - I don't think so. The house is joint and cars are in my name and she's scared - she may be nice now but once her family and lawyers start giving her "advice" things will likely change quickly. She mentioned using the same lawyer and that might be an option - we'll see how that works out but probably won't.

Here's my plan: tomorrow I'll go to the bank and get copies of our accounts for the last 12 months so I have a reference point. I'll then have a conversation that we need to have an initial consultation with a divorce attorney to start planning through the divorce.


----------



## Time2Change_IA

oldshirt said:


> I have condensed a few of your interactions with her down and I want to point something out for you to think about here.
> 
> Take a look at and read what you have written above.
> 
> As I read through that, what I am starting to see from what you have written about her is that this sounds like the way a woman would talk to a "friend." ...... not a lover. Not a BF. Not to a loving spouse where there was still romantic/sexual chemistry. But to a buddy or guy friend.
> 
> I know you think you are making progress and even some of the posters on this site will think that becoming friends will be a positive step in the right direction.
> 
> However, taken as a whole, I think this is actually more of an ominous sign than initially obvious. I see you as being in the Friend Zone and appear to be digging yourself deeper into the Friend Zone.
> 
> She's been enjoying the attention and companionship and what I am assuming as you doing more work around the house.... but yet when you try to steer things a little more personal or intimate, she brings it back around to the fact she is planning on divorce. This is exactly what chicks do with their orbiters that they have in the Friend Zone.
> 
> Has she ever told you in so many words or even the exact words of, " I Love You But Not In Love With You"?
> That is abbreviated as as ILYBNILWY) and it is a thing. It almost universally means that she appreciates the goods and services you provide and think you are a good person and she benefits from your companionship and attention...... but she does not have romantic/sexual feelings or desire for you. And almost as universally it also usually means that she has romantic/sexual feelings for someone(s) else.
> 
> She seems to be interacting with you the way she would a coworker or family friend or some other guy in her social or family circle for whom she may like on a person-to-person basis but has no romantic/sexual feelings or desire for.
> 
> I think part of the reason you found her reaction to you asking about her phone interaction was so strange, is because she reacted the way a person would react to some guy at work asking who she was texting so much, which would be just kind of a matter-of-fact response with no greater emotional investment. .......In otherwords, she doesn't care what you think and is not invested in trying to even convince you she isn't screwing around. She just sees it as none of your business who she is chatting with or what the topic of conversation is about.
> 
> Her telling you about the boob job is also very damning IMHO. She's matter-of-fact telling you she wants a boob job like she would tell a cousin or some guy at work that she shoots the shyt with, but then taunts you with the disclaimer that you aren't going to touch them and they won't be for your benefit at all.
> 
> That's how women treat orbiters in their friend zone. That is not how they interact with men they desire or want to have relationships with.
> 
> The trouble here is going from the Friend Zone to a mutually happy and healthy intimate relationship is actually harder than less successful than beginning at ground zero in meeting a person. People have better luck meeting a new person and beginning the dating process than they do turning a Friend Zone into an intimate relationship. Multiply that times 100 if it is within a long term relationship that has turned sour and someone is already raising the divorce flag.
> 
> What you are seeing as progress and hope, may actually be additional nails into the coffin of your marriage.


Great insight!

This is why I'm here - to get feedback from you and others who don't know me, my wife, or our relationship. Of course there are a lot of nuances, however I believe my relationship (or lack thereof) with my son is a significant contribution to this as she sees my relationship with him as toxic (details could be provided if needed).

Back to the "friend zone" - I definitely see it and understand your perspective. Living in the same house (she stays at home and I work from home) it's difficult to change this dynamic as there's no time apart - my colleagues are all online and we haven't lived here long so I don't have friends to hang out with. I appreciate you taking the time to read through and analyze what I wrote and I agree with you. 

Is there anything I should try at this point - or is it likely too late and in a environment that isn't conducive to anything more than roommates?


----------



## oldshirt

Time2Change_IA said:


> she may be nice now but once her family and lawyers start giving her "advice" things will likely change quickly. She mentioned using the same lawyer and that might be an option - we'll see how that works out but probably won't.


NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!! Never share her lawyer. That lawyer is NOT your advocate! That is one of the most foolish things that a man can do in a divorce and so many men are so concerned with saving a penny that they end up getting taken to the cleaners because they are so dumb as to trust someone that is trying to get away from him with as many of his resources as she can and the lawyer that is working for her. Don't fall for it!!

One of my best friends who is a technological genius and straight A's in advanced mathmatics and physics and calculus etc could not figure out that his ex wife and her lawyer were both working against him and he didn't have a clue. All they did was tell him that if they did it together that it would be half the lawyer fees, faster and with less conflict and arguing. 

The stupid SOB with his office wallpapered with advanced degrees and diplomas fell for it hook, line and sinker and he is still paying out the Wazoo now going on 20 years later and even though the kids are grown. 

There were stipulations and conditions in his final divorce decree that no common man on the street let a lone a law student on his first day of law school would have signed off on. He saved a few thousand dollars in lawyer fees in 2005 but is still paying for it now even though his kids are grown and his ex is tenured university professor. 

His official IQ may have been a point or two but she was a helluva lot smarter. 

Rule # 1 here: DON'T BE DUMB!!


----------



## Erudite

Time2Change_IA said:


> This is great advice and something I've been pondering over the last few days. There is disparity and you're right - she's likely been planning this for some time.
> 
> Kids are minors, with the oldest being 14. There is no abuse, alcoholism, gambling, etc. and she did mention a conversation with her therapist about how this makes it more difficult without those behaviors. We have a financial disadvantage - she's been staying at home for more than 5 years so doesn't have an income other than some part time work she does. She did mention she's concerned that she can't keep the house as she would need to refinance it and can't without income - she even asked if I would allow her to live her and pay me - I don't think so. The house is joint and cars are in my name and she's scared - she may be nice now but once her family and lawyers start giving her "advice" things will likely change quickly. She mentioned using the same lawyer and that might be an option - we'll see how that works out but probably won't.
> 
> Here's my plan: tomorrow I'll go to the bank and get copies of our accounts for the last 12 months so I have a reference point. I'll then have a conversation that we need to have an initial consultation with a divorce attorney to start planning through the divorce.


So you have given up hope then?


----------



## oldshirt

Time2Change_IA said:


> Is there anything I should try at this point


Yeah, get a lawyer and prepare to protect your assets, property and relationship with your children. 

You do not have to file for divorce at this moment in time if you if you don't want. But at least have your wagons circled and your ducks in a row to protect the above. 

What you are going to find here if you spend any time researching this site, is the men that took the soft and friendly and accommidating approach and were trying to appease and "Save The Marriage" while the wife was seeing lawyers and making arrangments for support and advocacy with friends and family, got taken to the cleaners and ended up funding their wife's new life with her new lover(s) and ended up watching other men raise their children. 

Some of them were literally sitting in court while the final papers and decrees were being drawn up, thinking that they were still reconciling and thinking that the marriage would be saved and they'd be living happily ever after. 

The men that acted with strength and determination and took action to seek legal counsel and actually took their lawyers advice, either came out much much better in the divorce,,,,, 

.....and for some of them when they finally grew a set of balls and started taking the bull by the horns and started taking care of themselves, the Wayward Wives (WW) backed down and opted to remain in the marriage and work on things. 

You're always going to be better off taking the strong approach and playing hardball. 

She has thrown down the gauntlet. She has stated her intentions. She has sought legal counsel. She has discussed this and assembled her troops with the family. 

You were the one citing Dec 8th, so lets use December 7th as an analogy - She has her attack planes fueled up and bombs loaded and her attack plan all made out ready to launch the attack on a sleeping and unaware enemy at dawn. 

YOU are the sleeping and unaware enemy right now.


----------



## Trident

oldshirt said:


> NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!! Never share her lawyer. That lawyer is NOT your advocate! That is one of the most foolish things that a man can do in a divorce


Should they share an attorney? Your post wasn't clear on this.

An ethical attorney will be upfront and tell both parties that they cannot represent both of them. However the term "ethical attorney" is often an oxymoron.

If the parties wish to settle things amicably they can do so in mediation and their own attorneys (or possibly one working in conjunction with the mediator and not chosen by one of the parties) will put the legal stamp on it and double check that it's fair to both parties.


----------



## Time2Change_IA

Erudite said:


> So you have given up hope then?


No.

I’m going to get a handle on my finances so I don’t have surprises.

I’m going to continue working on myself as that needs to happen regardless, including finding a therapist, and work on becoming the best father I can.

I don’t know what will happen over the next few weeks. I don’t know if it’s possible to get out of the friend zone. I read about the “180” here but don’t know if it’s applicable.

I haven’t given up but I guess I’m treading water. And I just had a long conversation with my mother (first time discussing) so I’m thinking about her insight (would be nice to have time to work on the marriage but she’s not surprised this is happening).

😁😞🤦‍♂️


----------



## oldshirt

Trident said:


> Should they share an attorney? Your post wasn't clear on this.
> 
> An ethical attorney will be upfront and tell both parties that they cannot represent both of them. However the term "ethical attorney" is often an oxymoron.
> 
> If the parties wish to settle things amicably they can do so in mediation and their own attorneys (or possibly one working in conjunction with the mediator and not chosen by one of the parties) will put the legal stamp on it and double check that it's fair to both parties.


(I am not an attorney and am not familiar with the divorce laws in their jurisdiction and nothing I say should be taken as legal advice. This is my own opinion based off of my own experiences and the experiences I have witnessed in others)

For this guy - absolutely NOT!! He should not even consider sharing an attorney at this point. 

OK on a conceptual basis, yes, there are some couples that can probably have the terms of divorce worked out by a mediator and signed off by a shared attorney who makes sure all the T's are crossed and I's dotted before submitting it to the court. 

But this is NOT one of those couples. 

For a couple who both have similar incomes and assets, who both want the divorce, and who have both sat down and worked out what they consider a fair and equitable division of assets and a mutually agreeable custody and child support agreement and who have each had the terms of the divorce at least reviewed by their own counsel, then a shared attorney contracted with both parties for presentation to the court would probably be OK. 

But again, this is NOT one of those couples. 

She has been thinking about this and planning this for years and has been seeking legal counsel and discussing plans with family and probably even has another man offering her guidance and encouragement and support, where as he has been asleep at the wheel unaware of what has been brewing over the last several years. 

She is miles ahead of him in this process. He is still thinking this a little rough patch in the marriage that just needs some flowers delivered and a few nice date night dinners and maybe a few MC sessions to work things out. 

She's moving forward with well entrenched divorce plans while he's trying to be nice and try to patch things up. They are on two completely different planes of reality. 

Also she is unemployed while raising minor children. She is going to be asking for some degree of spousal support. That right there makes him need his own legal counsel and his own advocate. 

He may still be trying to play nice and be the good guy here, but once he has indisputable evidence of the other man, he will change his tune on a dime about how much he wants to fund her new life with some other guy. 

For SOME couples under certain specific circumstances, sharing a lawyer may be ok. But for this particular OP - NO WAY!!!


----------



## oldshirt

Time2Change_IA said:


> I read about the “180” here but don’t know if it’s applicable.


It's applicable. Necessary even. 

Again, she has thrown down the gauntlet and declared her intentions to divorce and she has shown positive actions towards that goal. 

This is like what places are teaching about active shooters. the first thing you need to do when the active shooter alert is called is to accept that it is real. 

You are in danger here. Accept that this is real.


----------



## Time2Change_IA

oldshirt said:


> It's applicable. Necessary even.
> 
> Again, she has thrown down the gauntlet and declared her intentions to divorce and she has shown positive actions towards that goal.
> 
> This is like what places are teaching about active shooters. the first thing you need to do when the active shooter alert is called is to accept that it is real.
> 
> You are in danger here. Accept that this is real.


Thank you.
I was going to reply to your earlier post about growing balls - this would be the 180. You've presented some valid and well thought out arguments and advice.


----------



## Time2Change_IA

oldshirt said:


> (I am not an attorney and am not familiar with the divorce laws in their jurisdiction and nothing I say should be taken as legal advice. This is my own opinion based off of my own experiences and the experiences I have witnessed in others)
> 
> For this guy - absolutely NOT!! He should not even consider sharing an attorney at this point.
> 
> OK on a conceptual basis, yes, there are some couples that can probably have the terms of divorce worked out by a mediator and signed off by a shared attorney who makes sure all the T's are crossed and I's dotted before submitting it to the court.
> 
> But this is NOT one of those couples.
> 
> For a couple who both have similar incomes and assets, who both want the divorce, and who have both sat down and worked out what they consider a fair and equitable division of assets and a mutually agreeable custody and child support agreement and who have each had the terms of the divorce at least reviewed by their own counsel, then a shared attorney contracted with both parties for presentation to the court would probably be OK.
> 
> But again, this is NOT one of those couples.
> 
> She has been thinking about this and planning this for years and has been seeking legal counsel and discussing plans with family and probably even has another man offering her guidance and encouragement and support, where as he has been asleep at the wheel unaware of what has been brewing over the last several years.
> 
> She is miles ahead of him in this process. He is still thinking this a little rough patch in the marriage that just needs some flowers delivered and a few nice date night dinners and maybe a few MC sessions to work things out.
> 
> She's moving forward with well entrenched divorce plans while he's trying to be nice and try to patch things up. They are on two completely different planes of reality.
> 
> Also she is unemployed while raising minor children. She is going to be asking for some degree of spousal support. That right there makes him need his own legal counsel and his own advocate.
> 
> He may still be trying to play nice and be the good guy here, but once he has indisputable evidence of the other man, he will change his tune on a dime about how much he wants to fund her new life with some other guy.
> 
> For SOME couples under certain specific circumstances, sharing a lawyer may be ok. But for this particular OP - NO WAY!!!


I certainly have concerns about this - my guess is once she gets a taste of what an attorney thinks she deserves she'll change her tune.

Appreciated.


----------



## Erudite

Time2Change_IA said:


> I certainly have concerns about this - my guess is once she gets a taste of what an attorney thinks she deserves she'll change her tune.
> 
> Appreciated.


Hey, you are within your rights to run, not walk to the nearest exit. If you think she's gonna stay because you have her beaten financially in a divorce rather than because she realizes she loves you though... Is that any better? Rip off the band aid quicker if thats tbe case.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

I've said this for the last 40 years and I'm still saying it.

When a woman is done, she's DONE.


----------



## Time2Change_IA

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I've said this for the last 40 years and I'm still saying it.
> 
> When a woman is done, she's DONE.


So with this in mind, with suggestions here about doing a 180 - I see a conflict. If she’s done and it doesn’t matter, what good is doing a 180 other than for my self preservation?

And - if she’s done I might as will see an attorney and file, however the 180 seems to put the ball in her court:

“19. All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation”

🤷‍♂️


----------



## Erudite

I have my issues with the 180...I prefer Yoda. Do or do not. There is no try. I guess you have to make a choice and stick with it. If you truly believe she is DONE just let her go. Don't let her take you to the cleaners but be fair after all YOU still love HER. But if you are not sure she is DONE don't use the divorce as a weapon to make her stay.


----------



## Marc878

Mr.Married said:


> Look up the cell phone records


Yep. The easiest best clue. Go online and view your phone bill.


----------



## Marc878

You seem to be trying to analyze everything she does. She maybe happy because she’s made her decision to divorce you. Right now you seem to be doing the pick me dance. Its ok to work on yourself but do it for you. Otherwise you are wasting your time.


----------



## Marc878

If you chase all that does is push them farther away. A lot can’t stop themselves and will do it anyway.


----------



## Time2Change_IA

Marc878 said:


> You seem to be trying to analyze everything she does. She maybe happy because she’s made her decision to divorce you. Right now you seem to be doing the pick me dance. It ok to work on yourself but do it for you. Otherwise you are wasting your time.


Thanks for calling that out and you’re right. I’m understandably confused right now.


----------



## SunCMars

oldshirt said:


> no doubt!!
> 
> She has already stated to your face that you will get no benefit from her new hooters.


This may be her wanting you to fight for her, to insist (to kick up a fuss) that they remain yours to fondle.

Or, she is getting her body ready for the meat market that is modern dating and she is cruelly rubbing this in your face.

Uh, rubbing the fact that they will lifted and reshaped, and not the tits rubbing in your face.

If you want those tits to remain yours you must claim the rest of her, first.
You cannot be passive about this.



_Lilith-_


----------



## Marc878

I get it. Most are in shock and start grasping at straws. 
Most often folks jump into the pick me dance thinking that if everything is their fault they can fix it. Or try nicing them back. 
It’s faulty thinking. The pick me dance usually makes you look weak and unattractive. Much like puppy wanting to be petted. Or the manipulation tactics that never work. If I do this she’ll do that.


----------



## Marc878

The one thing is YOU can’t fix this. A marriage takes two.


----------



## Erudite

Marc878 said:


> I get it. Most are in shock and start grasping at straws.
> Most often folks jump into the pick me dance thinking that if everything is their fault they can fix it. Or try nicing them back.
> It’s faulty thinking. The pick me dance usually makes you look weak and unattractive. Much like puppy wanting to be petted. Or the manipulation tactics that never work. If I do this she’ll do that.


Weak and unattractive? He is being very courageous imho. She is leaving him anyway. Instead of worrying what it will look like to her OP should think about how he will feel about himself if he was wrong about her intentions. All this reading into her words and actions. Why not just be frank with her? Give her a timeline to get her emotional health in order. Be honest that until the deadline he is all in on their marriage. After the deadline if her behaviour hasn't changec he will assume divorce what she really wants and follows through with it.


----------



## Marc878

Erudite said:


> Weak and unattractive? He is being very courageous imho. She is leaving him anyway. Instead of worrying what it will look like to her OP should think about how he will feel about himself if he was wrong about her intentions. All this reading into her words and actions. Why not just be frank with her? Give her a timeline to get her emotional health in order. Be honest that until the deadline he is all in on their marriage. After the deadline if her behaviour hasn't changec he will assume divorce what she really wants and follows through with it.


Not from what I’ve seen and witnessed. My opinion. He can take it or leave it.


----------



## Time2Change_IA

Still processing all of the replies and appreciate everyone’s feedback over the last 24 hours.

Cheating? It’s possible. I don’t have concrete evidence one way or the other. I’m more inclined to believe her so called emotional support through this (gay friend) is telling her how strong she is and how easy this will be for her to finally be happy.

180? Possibly. I’m not a wet noodle following her around, asking for forgiveness and begging her to stay. I’m a thinker not a feeler and often psychoanalyze (two faults of mine) so I’m trying to figure out what she’s thinking but I’m not asking her. The list I prepared and shared with her was for me - I want to ensure I understand her perspective and to have behaviors documented when I start therapy. I’ve recalled a lot of memories over the past two weeks that I’ve been journaling (youth not marriage) as I’ve struggled with therapists in the past. But parts of the 180 concept make sense- specifically ensuring I don’t follow her around the house, make myself too available, don’t ask where she’s been, get angry, etc. and most of these are good for a strong marriage.

Lawyer - certainly. I’ve been reading Iowa law on divorce with regards to property, alimony and child support - seems straight forward (even have online calculators on Iowa Courts) but nuances such as custodial details (days/month) and length of spousal support need an attorney.

I need to be strong and confident without being an outright jerk or a-hole while we’re still living together. Not sure if an ultimatum would help or not, although many would argue it doesn’t matter at this point if the marriage is doomed regardless.


----------



## oldshirt

Time2Change_IA said:


> So with this in mind, with suggestions here about doing a 180 - I see a conflict. If she’s done and it doesn’t matter, what good is doing a 180 other than for my self preservation?
> 
> And - if she’s done I might as will see an attorney and file, however the 180 seems to put the ball in her court:
> 
> “19. All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation”
> 
> 🤷‍♂️


You may be misunderstanding the purpose and intent of the 180.

The 180 is NOT a program for getting a wayward partner back. 

It is a means of disengaging yourself from the situation and moving on so that you are not exploited or manipulated by your partner. 

Sometimes that partner may see the other person moving on and taking care of themselves and occasionally that will make them reconsider and they come crawling back (usually to cheat and/or leave at another point down the road, but that is another topic) 

But the intent of the 180 is to get away and disengage so you aren't used and manipulated.


----------



## oldshirt

Time2Change_IA said:


> I need to be strong and confident without being an outright jerk or a-hole while we’re still living together. Not sure if an ultimatum would help or not, although many would argue it doesn’t matter at this point if the marriage is doomed regardless.


what do you have to bargain and make ultimatums with? She's the one with all the power here since she already wants out of the marriage. What kind of ultimatum can you issue - shape up or you'll divorce her? She already wants a divorce. You have no teeth here. 

What you do have the right to however is not to live in limbo or be strung alone or kept on the shelf as her back up plan if things don't work out with the other guy(s). 

You do have the right to hold her to be all-in or all-out. You have the right to ask for commitment one way or another. Either she commits to giving full effort and due diligence to stay and work on the marriage in earnest - or to pack her stuff, move out and file. 

But you have to be mentally and legally prepared for her to choose the latter.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Tell her that if she wants a divorce, then:

She needs to find another place to live. If she wants out of the marriage, then she needs to go. You two can figure out as things progress what to eventually do with your home, but for now, she needs to leave. 
And
She needs to find full time employment. You will not be financing her new life. 
And
Last but not least, you WILL NOT share an attorney or give her the money to file. 
Do not lose sight of your best interests to be the nice guy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Anastasia6

OP I see her wanting to get a reaction from you. She is trying to get your attention.


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## Anastasia6

3Xnocharm said:


> Tell her that if she wants a divorce, then:
> 
> She needs to find another place to live. If she wants out of the marriage, then she needs to go. You two can figure out as things progress what to eventually do with your home, but for now, she needs to leave.
> And
> She needs to find full time employment. You will not be financing her new life.
> And
> Last but not least, you WILL NOT share an attorney or give her the money to file.
> Do not lose sight of your best interests to be the nice guy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Except you can't kick someone out of a house in a marriage dissolution. The judge decides who gets what. The money is considered marital property and she doesn't need him to 'give' her money for a lawyer. It's her money too.

OP I don't know if you wife is just trying to get your attention in a passive aggressive way or if she's cheating or if she is just done with whatever conflict / problems you two have. 

It is a good idea to try to cut through the ******** and figure it out. Check your phone bills for cheating. Sit her down and have a real talk with her. Tell her that you don't want to get divorced and admit the things you think you need to improve and would be willing to like the relationship with the son. Ask what she would like to see improved. Think back on whatever she has said for years.... Maybe only once every few months but consistently that you haven't done. Like pay more attention to her? compliment? date? flowers? help with the children? something. Then let her know that since she seems hellbent on divorce that she will need to get a job. Now. Let her know you are not willing to let her live in the house and make payments.

It is always a bad idea to have things like the house after divorce. Just tell her you'll need to sell the house to split the assets. Let her know you'll be filing for 50/50 custody. Get down to brass tacks but don't be hostile. Just let her know that if this is what she wants then things are going to have to happen. Make an appointment with a lawyer then keep it. No matter how the conversation goes. Go see a lawyer find out what you are looking at and how to protect yourself.


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## Time2Change_IA

oldshirt said:


> You may be misunderstanding the purpose and intent of the 180.
> 
> The 180 is NOT a program for getting a wayward partner back.
> 
> It is a means of disengaging yourself from the situation and moving on so that you are not exploited or manipulated by your partner.
> 
> Sometimes that partner may see the other person moving on and taking care of themselves and occasionally that will make them reconsider and they come crawling back (usually to cheat and/or leave at another point down the road, but that is another topic)
> 
> But the intent of the 180 is to get away and disengage so you aren't used and manipulated.


Thanks for the clarity!

Makes sense - and I see how the change could upset dynamics for me.


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## jonty30

Time2Change_IA said:


> Thanks for the clarity!
> 
> Makes sense - and I see how the change could upset dynamics for me.


Women desire a man who won't collapse on them in their absence. Thata why the 180 is good to do in a troubled marriage.


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## Time2Change_IA

Anastasia6 said:


> Except you can't kick someone out of a house in a marriage dissolution. The judge decides who gets what. The money is considered marital property and she doesn't need him to 'give' her money for a lawyer. It's her money too.
> 
> OP I don't know if you wife is just trying to get your attention in a passive aggressive way or if she's cheating or if she is just done with whatever conflict / problems you two have.
> 
> It is a good idea to try to cut through the ****** and figure it out. Check your phone bills for cheating. Sit her down and have a real talk with her. Tell her that you don't want to get divorced and admit the things you think you need to improve and would be willing to like the relationship with the son. Ask what she would like to see improved. Think back on whatever she has said for years.... Maybe only once every few months but consistently that you haven't done. Like pay more attention to her? compliment? date? flowers? help with the children? something. Then let her know that since she seems hellbent on divorce that she will need to get a job. Now. Let her know you are willing to let her live in the house and make payments.
> 
> It is always a bad idea to have things like the house after divorce. Just tell her you'll need to sell the house to split the assets. Let her know you'll be filing for 50/50 custody. Get down to brass tacks but don't be hostile. Just let her know that if this is what she wants then things are going to have to happen. Make an appointment with a lawyer then keep it. No matter how the conversation goes. Go see a lawyer find out what you are looking at and how to protect yourself.


Thank you.

She can be passive aggressive so it's possible - along with the other options you mention.

My plan today is to get hard copies of account balances from the bank then have a heart to heart with her later today. Regardless of whether she has interest in working on the marriage I will set an appointment with a divorce lawyer.


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## Anastasia6

Time2Change_IA said:


> Thank you.
> 
> She can be passive aggressive so it's possible - along with the other options you mention.
> 
> My plan today is to get hard copies of account balances from the bank then have a heart to heart with her later today. Regardless of whether she has interest in working on the marriage I will set an appointment with a divorce lawyer.


I just noticed a very important not missing from my paragraph. Do NOT let her live in the house and make payments.


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## Mr.Married

You have a good chance of coming out on the other side in good shape. In comparison to a lot of guys in your position we see here you have a pretty clear head. If you can maintain yourself that way through out then you will have done yourself a huge favor.


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## drencrom

Prodigal said:


> I'll give you my 2 cents as a woman. When a woman mentions divorce and says she's done trying, believe her. She's done. Sorry.


And I'll add to that, as a man, if a woman wants a divorce and she has been messing around with another man, I don't get how a man can be comfortable with her ever again.

So this what Prodigal said coupled with what I said, if divorce isn't inevitable, then its headed for alot of confusion and mental restlessness for you OP.

Question. Knowing she is messing around, or wanting to, can you ever look at her again and not think you have an unfaithful wife? I know I couldn't. And rather than subject myself to that torture, I got rid of the source of my pain, the wife.


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## 3Xnocharm

Anastasia6 said:


> Except you can't kick someone out of a house in a marriage dissolution. The judge decides who gets what.


No he can’t legally kick her out, but he can tell her that he wants her to leave, that if she is ending the marriage that she isn’t welcome any more. I’m of the mind that if you want out, then you get out. (Unless that house is only yours of course) That may be a reality check for her that this is real and serious. She seems to be of the mindset that she can do whatever she wants and he has to bow to her and pay her way. The fact that she hasn’t secured full time employment proves that, from where I sit. 

I do agree tho that the best thing is to sell and split. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drencrom

oldshirt said:


> (I am not an attorney and am not familiar with the divorce laws in their jurisdiction and nothing I say should be taken as legal advice. This is my own opinion based off of my own experiences and the experiences I have witnessed in others)
> 
> For this guy - absolutely NOT!! He should not even consider sharing an attorney at this point.


No, you are absolutely right. Do NOT share a lawyer. 

@Time2Change_IA, you need your own lawyer. And also, no matter how you feel you may want to do this amicably, DON'T!! She won't. 

You tell your attorney to go for the throat and play as dirty as he/she thinks they need to so as to protect you. Because a cheating spouse doesn't deserve an amicable divorce, for starters.
But emotions aside, her attorney will be going to screw you...and he/she will use the kids to do it. Believe me, I know!!

Don't let them. Get yourself a bulldog of an attorney and tell them, "do what you gotta do"


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## drencrom

3Xnocharm said:


> No he can’t legally kick her out, but he can tell her that he wants her to leave, that if she is ending the marriage that she isn’t welcome any more. I’m of the mind that if you want out, then you get out. (Unless that house is only yours of course) That may be a reality check for her that this is real and serious. She seems to be of the mindset that she can do whatever she wants and he has to bow to her and pay her way. The fact that she hasn’t secured full time employment proves that, from where I sit.
> 
> I do agree tho that the best thing is to sell and split.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Also, whoever stays in the house will owe the other spouse 1/2 the equity. That could be offset depending on debts accumulated. But staying in the home isn't always the best choice unless you are just attached to it.

My X had to sign a Quit Claim Deed on the house in exchange for me paying the marital debt. That way whatever improvements on the house I made to increase its value when I sold it went to me, none to her.


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## drencrom

Anastasia6 said:


> OP I see her wanting to get a reaction from you. She is trying to get your attention.


@Time2Change_IA Do not engage her if you pursue divorce. Any interactions she may want to have you should tell her to have her attorney contact yours.
Also, to keep costs down, do not contact your attorney every minute of the day. Give he/she what she needs and let them do their job. Because every email, every phone call is billed. Get all your ducks in a row, give it to them in your initial meeting, then let them contact you if they need anything from you. Be patient.


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## Time2Change_IA

Anastasia6 said:


> I just noticed a very important not missing from my paragraph. Do NOT let her live in the house and make payments.


Thanks for the clarity. She mentioned this a week ago, letting her live in the house and make payments, and I quickly shut it down.

In Iowa we have a 90 day cooling off period with mandatory therapy when children are involved. She wants to keep the house to keep our children stable- although she doesn’t like the house and divorce will destabilize them regardless of where they live. As she’s not working she can’t afford to refinance and buy me out so my plan is to sell and split the profits. As I have several projects that need finished I’ll need 30-60 days to get the house ready and we need to find other living arrangements.


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## drencrom

Time2Change_IA said:


> Thanks for the clarity. She mentioned this a week ago, letting her live in the house and make payments, and I quickly shut it down.
> 
> In Iowa we have a 90 day cooling off period with mandatory therapy when children are involved. She wants to keep the house to keep our children stable


Then she owes you 1/2 the equity in the house if she doesn't want to sell. Do NOT give that up.



> - although she doesn’t like the house and divorce will destabilize them regardless of where they live. As she’s not working she can’t afford to refinance and buy me out so my plan is to sell and split the profits.


If she doesn't go for that plan, she is nuts. No job, can't afford to refinance? If she agrees to this and she ends up moving out, then she doesn't get to split half the equity in the house if you are the only one still paying the mortgage and for any improvements until the house sells. She is either still in for half those expenses or a reduced percentage of the sale profits.

And here is the kicker, and believe me, I have lived it these last 14 years. You're child support should be able to pay all of their needs. Food, clothes, school expenses, even their portion of the household expenses, utilities, mortgage/rent.

But since she doesn't have a job, or plans to get a minimum wage job, most of your child support won't go for their needs. It will go to make up for her deficiency in being able to provide even for herself.

It's too bad you wouldn't be able to get custody. I think finances should be considered when thinking about what is best for the kids.


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## oldshirt

@Time2Change_IA 

What these people are telling you is that if she wants to divorce you, that is her perogative but you in no way, shape or form have to support or finance it. 

There will by necessity be asset division by law, but you in no way should assist her or protect her from the ramifications of her choices and actions. 

If she wants to leave, then tell her to pack her bags and leave the house. If she can’t afford a place of her own yet, that means she sleeps on friend or relatives couch or with her other guy. If she can’t do that, then she can sleep in the car . 

If she calls you in the middle of the night saying the car won’t start or has a flat - tell her to call AAA. 

If the toilet is clogged in her new apartment, tell her to call a plumber. 

She is free to make her choices, but don’t lift a finger of your own to make her free of the ramifications and consequences of those decisions.

That means do not help carry a single box of hers out to the moving truck. Have friends or relatives of yours at the house as witnesses that you didn’t do anything to stop her or abuse her. 

But don’t pack a single pair of her socks or lift and carry so much as a pillow to assist her move. 

Only pay what you are ordered by the court to pay and not a penny more. 

If she wants to leave and be on her own, then let her leave and be on her own but make her pay for all her expenses like and adult and if she calls in the middle of the night because there is a spider or mouse in her new place, that is what exterminators are for.


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## 3Xnocharm

@oldshirt is spot on. She’s firing you from your role as her husband, so treat this as being fired from a job and don’t assist with any of her bullcrap. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oldshirt

3Xnocharm said:


> @oldshirt is spot on. She’s firing you from your role as her husband, so treat this as being fired from a job and don’t assist with any of her bullcrap.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Another way to word this is she has torn up her wife card and has waived her rights to be treated as a spouse. 

She is no longer entitled to the considerations and goods and services normally afforded to a wife.

She is now just another face in the crowd that is cuddling up to some other guy instead of you. 

Treat her as such. 

Don’t be mean or abusive towards her. 

But treat her with any more consideration than you would to a complete stranger on the street.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Prodigal said:


> I'll give you my 2 cents as a woman. When a woman mentions divorce and says she's done trying, believe her. She's done. Sorry.


Yep, sadly read, reread, and staple to headboard. 

Its true.


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## Evinrude58

Time2Change_IA said:


> Hello and happy holidays from Iowa!
> 
> I recently found this site and want to share my situation. Once I provide some detail I realize that my story is similar to many, and the ability to post here has a therapeutic effect as we’re still “going public” and wanted to wait until after the holidays - however she told her sister today so in her family it will travel like wildfire. I don’t know if this thread will turn into journaling for me or not, and I’m looking forward to insight from others here who aren’t emotionally invested in my scenario.
> 
> *Too long - didn’t read:*
> Married 15 years, together 19 and wife just asked for divorce. I don’t want a divorce and want to work on myself to see if I can change the dynamics of the marriage. We still live together so I feel I have a 50/50 chance of saving it. I’ve self diagnosed myself as Type A (and probably D) personality, with INTJ personality type so I struggle with many things including my emotions. I also think I have some abandonment issues from childhood which doesn’t help me connect.
> 
> *Long version:*
> 
> My wife and I have been together for almost 20 years and through that time have been through a lot. We have two children and have created a stable, comfortable life for ourselves however we would both admit that we’ve had our share of ups and downs, and have never been great at communicating through our problems. We both have issues and baggage that prevent us from communicating well, and while she’s been seeing a therapist for over a year, I haven’t been and we’ve never seen a marriage counselor for more than a few months. There hasn’t been infidelity although there was a 2 week period in 2014 where she interacted with a car salesman through text and some phone calls - she called it off and admitted to me what had happened. She stated she was lonely and he was paying attention to her and complimenting her (she stays home) and she realized it was wrong and that he was only interested in sex. For the last several years we’ve been “treading water” for lack of a better term, as with relocating to be closer to her mother, the passing of her mother, COVID and a work transition for me there’s always been something to take center stage. I’m not sure what happened recently to move us to this point, but something has.
> 
> Fast forward to December 8th. We were watching a show after the kids were in bed and I noticed she was on her phone (which isn’t uncommon) but every time I would get close to her she would flip it over. I’d also noticed recently that she seems to be dimming the screen at night (we don’t sit next to each other) which to me seemed suspicious. I asked her if there was anything I needed to know, was something going on or was there someone else - she stated no, put her phone down and left it at that. This was concerning as the response I expected was something along the lines of there’s no one else, I shouldn’t think that way or worry, and that she has something going on (friends, etc.) that’s taking her attention. My concern was lack of a fight or justification and as I thought about it over the next 24 hours I decided to have a talk.
> 
> On December 9th we talked for nearly an hour. I started by discussing what happened the night before, but that my concern wasn’t about someone else as her lack of fight or justification when I asked. She said there wasn’t anyone else, however she’s been unhappy for quite a while and thinks it would be better for us to divorce. She said that we’ve tried for years and while we’ve had our ups and downs, she doesn’t think I’ll ever change and isn’t interested in trying any longer as nothing will change. She also said that due to our different parenting styles (more on that in a moment) we would each be better parents if we were apart. I told her I agree with her and that neither of us seem happy, however we’ve been together for nearly 20 years and I don’t want to throw away our time or our family. I offered to table everything through the holidays and the kids going back to school in January, then re-convene at the beginning of February (it doesn’t seem to work that way). If we need to sell the house there’s a few “projects” I need to finish and we could look to put the house on the market in March if things don’t work out. I didn’t ask for her commitment to work on the marriage or to see a marriage counselor, just to give it some time.
> 
> Of course it didn’t work to leave things alone until February . I immediately started thinking through what was happening and what I wanted from the relationship, and decided I wanted to stay married.
> 
> I went online searching for answers and here’s what I have for a game plan -
> 
> I can’t change her mind. Trying to convince her to stay, or begging/pleading/guilting her will backfire. What I can do is work on myself and change the dynamics of the relationship. Focus on what I can control and what I believe she wants, but more importantly focus on what I need to work on to make myself a better person and father going forward. The hope is she will begin to feel differently over time and we may be able to save our marriage, but if not I’ll be a better person going forward.
> 
> She has a therapist and I asked her to get a recommendation for me from her therapist, as I would assume her therapist has a good idea of what I need to work on, if only from my wife’s perspective. My wife had an appointment on the 14th (she goes every 2 weeks) and got a recommendation.
> 
> The week of the 12th wasn’t overly eventful - I started helping with dinner and the chores, took the kids Christmas shopping getting them out of the house for her, and I planned a “date night” on the 16th. Casual conversation with her found that she was enjoying what she was seeing, but kept taking it back to she was leaving. On the 19th I was emotional during the day and shared it with her before bed - I’m heartbroken thinking about what this will do to our children. From then on I’ve kept my emotions in check as I know she doesn’t want to see someone who’s needy, clingy and emotional.
> 
> Here’s what I’ve done and where we’re at -
> 
> I read I need to work on myself and make myself a better person physically (dress, physique, etc.), intellectually, emotionally (behavior) and spiritually. This has helped me to be more engaged with her through conversation (not about our problems) around the news, a show we’re watching, her friends, etc., as we have longer and deeper conversations. We are sleeping together (not sexually) and instead of being on our phones we’ve had several nights where we lay in the dark and just talk - sometimes over an hour. I’m practicing being an engaged active listener and refrain from talking about our relationship as much as possible.
> 
> I’ve been working on my relationship with my son - it’s a deeper issue but impactful to our relationship as I wasn’t around my father much growing up. This impacts my ability to connect with my son or do “father/son” activities - and the relationship with my daughter is much different which isn’t healthy. We’ve been spending time together without anyone else, I had a heart to heart with him sharing things I’ve experienced, and our relationship has changed significantly over the last 2 weeks. My wife and I have discussed the impacts of this imbalance on our marriage.
> 
> On Monday the 13th, in the afternoon while we were talking over lunch, she put her head down and seemed emotional. I asked what was wrong as she said that it wasn’t fair that I was going to see a therapist “and would be fixed before her”. She brought up the divorce and the costs associated with an attorney - she stated she doesn’t want it to be expensive and that she’s talked with divorce lawyers (I didn’t press or ask when) but that several have a retainer of $3,500 and she doesn’t want to waste our savings on a lawyer.
> 
> I’ve noticed my wife seems happy, is smiling and laughing more, and is very willing to communicate. She’s still thoughtful as Thursday her and my daughter were out and she texted offering to bring me a treat (I work from home). I thanked her but said no, then she responded with the type of treat and that I would like it (one of my favorites) and I accepted.
> 
> Yesterday I shared a list of my behaviors that I think contributed to the situation we’re in and I think it was well received (internet advice). I did it in a nonchalant fact finding way. I shared what I had learned about myself, some high-level thoughts about how my childhood could have influenced me, and what behaviors I saw as impacting our relationship. I broke down the impacts for her and I, my son and I, and my daughter and I (I can provide detail if needed). I didn’t mention anything about what she had done, I didn’t make any promises or ask if she noticed a change, only that I wanted her input and feedback. She did offer one piece of feedback that I immediately wrote down as it was constructive. The conversation lasted about an hour and was interesting. First, she went back to her emotional affair in 2014 again apologizing, telling me she knew it was wrong, and it only happened as she was lonely and he paid attention to her and told her she was pretty. “I don’t need much in life” she said. Then she went on to tell me she's a very forgiving person - ?. I didn’t understand that. Then she told me that she was doing this so that I didn’t leave her when we are older and she’s no longer desirable - this last comment was interesting. I listened intently but didn’t say anything to her. Later last night I accidentally kissed her during a positive experience in from of our kids (she gave me a gift) and then about an hour later, as she was changing into our Christmas Eve pajamas (tradition) she made a comment about wanting to eventually get her breasts augmented and it’s too bad I was going to miss out on that - again I found this to be a strange comment.
> 
> What I find interesting is that we now have a great time together, laughing and carrying on, her being competitive and giving me a hard time, then out of the blue she’ll do a “180” bringing up the divorce. I don’t know if this is self preservation when she’s enjoying herself and gets scared? My plan is to keep doing what I’ve been doing - even if the marriage fails I will have learned a lot about myself, will be working on my issues and will be a better parent. However, this didn’t break overnight so if she does begin to see a difference, and has confidence it will last, this may take time.
> 
> Thoughts?


You’ve been friend zoned. She’s happy because she thinks she’s getting out. She’s telling you she’s getting boobs and other men will be enjoying them, not you. 
You’re getting no sex,no touch, *and she’s on the phone chatting up at least one other man.

dint be a chump. Don’t do the pick me dance. When they say they are done—- they are. The other person that told you that is right. Don’t mistake her happiness as her appreciating your “changes”, she’s probably happy because she’s been with her AP, or looking forward to seeing him or whomever when you’re gone.

sorry.*


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## Evinrude58

oldshirt said:


> I have condensed a few of your interactions with her down and I want to point something out for you to think about here.
> 
> Take a look at and read what you have written above.
> 
> As I read through that, what I am starting to see from what you have written about her is that this sounds like the way a woman would talk to a "friend." ...... not a lover. Not a BF. Not to a loving spouse where there was still romantic/sexual chemistry. But to a buddy or guy friend.
> 
> I know you think you are making progress and even some of the posters on this site will think that becoming friends will be a positive step in the right direction.
> 
> However, taken as a whole, I think this is actually more of an ominous sign than initially obvious. I see you as being in the Friend Zone and appear to be digging yourself deeper into the Friend Zone.
> 
> She's been enjoying the attention and companionship and what I am assuming as you doing more work around the house.... but yet when you try to steer things a little more personal or intimate, she brings it back around to the fact she is planning on divorce. This is exactly what chicks do with their orbiters that they have in the Friend Zone.
> 
> Has she ever told you in so many words or even the exact words of, " I Love You But Not In Love With You"?
> That is abbreviated as as ILYBNILWY) and it is a thing. It almost universally means that she appreciates the goods and services you provide and think you are a good person and she benefits from your companionship and attention...... but she does not have romantic/sexual feelings or desire for you. And almost as universally it also usually means that she has romantic/sexual feelings for someone(s) else.
> 
> She seems to be interacting with you the way she would a coworker or family friend or some other guy in her social or family circle for whom she may like on a person-to-person basis but has no romantic/sexual feelings or desire for.
> 
> I think part of the reason you found her reaction to you asking about her phone interaction was so strange, is because she reacted the way a person would react to some guy at work asking who she was texting so much, which would be just kind of a matter-of-fact response with no greater emotional investment. .......In otherwords, she doesn't care what you think and is not invested in trying to even convince you she isn't screwing around. She just sees it as none of your business who she is chatting with or what the topic of conversation is about.
> 
> Her telling you about the boob job is also very damning IMHO. She's matter-of-fact telling you she wants a boob job like she would tell a cousin or some guy at work that she shoots the shyt with, but then taunts you with the disclaimer that you aren't going to touch them and they won't be for your benefit at all.
> 
> That's how women treat orbiters in their friend zone. That is not how they interact with men they desire or want to have relationships with.
> 
> The trouble here is going from the Friend Zone to a mutually happy and healthy intimate relationship is actually harder than less successful than beginning at ground zero in meeting a person. People have better luck meeting a new person and beginning the dating process than they do turning a Friend Zone into an intimate relationship. Multiply that times 100 if it is within a long term relationship that has turned sour and someone is already raising the divorce flag.
> 
> What you are seeing as progress and hope, may actually be additional nails into the coffin of your marriage.


Just read this. Sorry, it’s spot on…


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## Evinrude58

BE prepared to get raped by the courts in the divorce. You’ve got the worst possible scenario for a man: a stay at home wide with kids. But as they say. You know why a divorce is so expensive? Because it’s worth it.
You might even consider fighting the divorce for a few years until she gets a job and the kids are older. Financially, this will not go well for you. But you have a lousy wife and that’s an anchor around your neck that’s best removed.


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## Time2Change_IA

This morning I ran errands including a trip to the bank to get a printout of our accounts for the month (transactions and balances).

Then we had a conversation around where she was at and what her plans are. Her response is that she still thinks it would be best for both of us if we get a divorce as she’s not sure it would work out if we tried as there’s so much to work on (?). I still don’t believe she’s cheating and could get into more detail if needed - she’s diagnosed as depressed with PTSD, doesn’t often leave the house, has felt trapped as my daughter has been online schooling since March 2020, and often has difficulty doing anything during the day (all of this could factor into a sense of desperation).

I switched gears and confidently stated that I don’t want a divorce and want to work on our relationship, but I can’t decide for her and if this is what she wants it’s time to get the ball rolling and there needs to be a consultation with a divorce lawyer sooner rather than later.

I then went into factual mode. I asked if she’s researched divorce in Iowa (she hasn’t) and told her that if amicable it’s straight forward. Child support is based on an online calculator, and while spousal support also has a calculator the judge will determine how long it lasts based on ability to work (she has degrees and will like be offered full time within the month). We split the assets and will need to list the house and split the equity. I told her we would split the $x.xx in the bank across the 4 accounts - I provided an exact number which caught her off guard with “you went to the bank??” And I said yes - I want to be fair but if we’re getting a divorce I need to know what’s involved. We split the belongings in the house and that I’m not interested in her family heirlooms (named a few off). I said really the only thing we need to work out is custody and she stated she hasn’t thought about it. We discussed our vehicles and investments, we would keep our cars (I’ll buy her out of our motorcycle) and the investments would be split other than some inheritance she has invested (IA law).

We discussed telling our children this week so they have time to process before returning from break and she countered that her therapist advised telling them at the end of January so they don’t associate with Christmas - I don’t disagree but this means there’s been conversations.

We agreed to keep this off social media and discussed who knows in the family. Next step get to an attorney and for the time being fake it as roommates.

That’s probably enough for today 😁.


----------



## drencrom

If she has degrees, then there should be no spousal support as she is capable of supporting herself. Whether or not she currently has a job is irrelevant unless she could prove you FORBID her to work.

I'd fight spousal support tooth and nail. Oh, and you want it to be amicable? Spousal support suggests anything BUT amicable for you.

I HIGHLY recommend not going the amicable route. In other words, don't do it getting the same attorneys. If you do, she'll rake you over the coals.


----------



## oldshirt

@Time2Change_IA 

IMHO that was actually pretty good. 

You showed that if she proceeds with divorce that you will stand up and take care of business for yourself. 

Many WWs and many Walk Away Wives operate on the presumption that the H will continue to appease and accommodate them and that they will continue to be supportive and supplicating and finance their ventures. 

It can be very destabilizing and upsetting to a WW’s plans when her H shows he is taking care of his own business in a very detached and methodical manner rather than chasing her around like a lost puppy dog trying to appease her.

It may or may not actually change her mind about leaving but it very often bursts her fantasy bubble and slams home the reality and impact of her actions.


----------



## Beach123

I’ve only read your opening post so far… but - she’s cheating.
Check her phone bill. It will tell you who she is prioritizing above you.
Take a look today!

Tell her to get a full time job ASAP! And since she wants a boob job (for the new man) SHE can pay for that herself!

Get your own attorney!


----------



## Beach123

Have you thoroughly checked her phone bill? I don’t see that you did.


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## Time2Change_IA

Beach123 said:


> Have you thoroughly checked her phone bill? I don’t see that you did.


I just took a quick look and as expected there’s nothing there. I don’t have detailed billing and with everything unlimited there’s nothing to see. Plus - with iMessage and FaceTime it’s all on Apple’s servers, same with Facebook Messenger, Snapchat, etc.


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## Beach123

Before anything else - tell her to start working full time!
She wants to not be married? She needs to start being capable of supporting herself!

Don’t rule out another woman. I’ve seen 3 divorces lately where the woman left her husband for another woman.


----------



## Beach123

Time2Change_IA said:


> I just took a quick look and as expected there’s nothing there. I don’t have detailed billing and with everything unlimited there’s nothing to see. Plus - with iMessage and FaceTime it’s all on Apple’s servers, same with Facebook Messenger, Snapchat, etc.


 Who was she messaging by when you noticed she was distracted? Check for the number listed under the texts for that timing.
Your phone bill has the info you need if you search well enough.


----------



## Erudite

Time2Change_IA said:


> This morning I ran errands including a trip to the bank to get a printout of our accounts for the month (transactions and balances).
> 
> Then we had a conversation around where she was at and what her plans are. Her response is that she still thinks it would be best for both of us if we get a divorce as she’s not sure it would work out if we tried as there’s so much to work on (?). I still don’t believe she’s cheating and could get into more detail if needed - she’s diagnosed as depressed with PTSD, doesn’t often leave the house, has felt trapped as my daughter has been online schooling since March 2020, and often has difficulty doing anything during the day (all of this could factor into a sense of desperation).
> 
> I switched gears and confidently stated that I don’t want a divorce and want to work on our relationship, but I can’t decide for her and if this is what she wants it’s time to get the ball rolling and there needs to be a consultation with a divorce lawyer sooner rather than later.
> 
> I then went into factual mode. I asked if she’s researched divorce in Iowa (she hasn’t) and told her that if amicable it’s straight forward. Child support is based on an online calculator, and while spousal support also has a calculator the judge will determine how long it lasts based on ability to work (she has degrees and will like be offered full time within the month). We split the assets and will need to list the house and split the equity. I told her we would split the $x.xx in the bank across the 4 accounts - I provided an exact number which caught her off guard with “you went to the bank??” And I said yes - I want to be fair but if we’re getting a divorce I need to know what’s involved. We split the belongings in the house and that I’m not interested in her family heirlooms (named a few off). I said really the only thing we need to work out is custody and she stated she hasn’t thought about it. We discussed our vehicles and investments, we would keep our cars (I’ll buy her out of our motorcycle) and the investments would be split other than some inheritance she has invested (IA law).
> 
> We discussed telling our children this week so they have time to process before returning from break and she countered that her therapist advised telling them at the end of January so they don’t associate with Christmas - I don’t disagree but this means there’s been conversations.
> 
> We agreed to keep this off social media and discussed who knows in the family. Next step get to an attorney and for the time being fake it as roommates.
> 
> That’s probably enough for today 😁.


You two seem to be agreeing on things too easily. If she was angry enough for a divorce these little negotiations would be full blown fights. 

It almost feels like she threw down the gauntlet and now is afraid to pick it up. You have successfully called her bluff but she can't take it back. Like she has no choice but to go through with it now.


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## oldshirt

Erudite said:


> You two seem to be agreeing on things too easily. If she was angry enough for a divorce these little negotiations would be full blown fights.
> 
> It almost feels like she threw down the gauntlet and now is afraid to pick it up. You have successfully called her bluff but she can't take it back. Like she has no choice but to go through with it now.


Not necessarily true.

Many relationships end with a whimper and not a roar.

She has likely been disengaging and disconnecting for years. If she has no passion and no emotional investment, then there’s nothing for her to be emotional or angry about. ..... just the business of moving out and moving on.


----------



## Erudite

oldshirt said:


> Not necessarily true.
> 
> Many relationships end with a whimper and not a roar.
> 
> She has likely been disengaging and disconnecting for years. If she has no passion and no emotional investment, then there’s nothing for her to be emotional or angry about. ..... just the business of moving out and moving on.


I hear you. You are not wrong. It's just the divorce was her idea. Not his. But she has done nothing but talk and according to him was shocked he even took her at her word. Dunno. Just an observation.


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## Beach123

I see her as spoiled. She gets the privilege of being able to stay home with her kids while you work to support the family… and this is how she thanks you? 😡
You mentioned she got inheritance money. Did she invest it in both your names or hers only?


----------



## oldshirt

Erudite said:


> I hear you. You are not wrong. It's just the divorce was her idea. Not his. But she has done nothing but talk and according to him was shocked he even took her at her word. Dunno. Just an observation.


There’s an old saying that whoever is the least invested in the relationship has all the power.

A month ago he was sleep walking along thinking everything was hunky dory.

She then dropped the bomb she wanted a divorce. 

When that happened he went on a self improvement kick and started waiting on her hand and foot and doing the “Pick Me! Dance.”

She had it made at that point, he was fixing things around the house and being helpful and running her feet. 

She was in no rush. She could take her sweet time and feather her nest with the other guy while at the same time enjoying the benefits of the OP being Mr Nice and Helpful. 

Like many WW/WAW she had a fantasy of him being her loyal servant while she comfortably transitions to new life as either a carefree single woman or moving on with the OM. 

This is giving us witness to how destabilizing it can be for a WW when the BH cuts off the Pick Me Dance, starts getting his own affairs in order and tells her to put up or pack up. 

Her fantasy of a smooth and easy transition to the other guy gets dashed.


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## Beach123

Stop being so nice and accommodating to her!
Her plan is to ruin your family as you’ve known it!

Treat her as the gal who purposely ruined the family and didn’t honor the vows she took.

Close all joint credit cards. Close joint bank accts and place half the total in your name - hand her the check fir the other half. Give her a weekly allowance that covers weekly costs of basics for the food and kids.

She can start figuring out where to get more money if she plans to divorce you. In the meantime she can also start spending her half instead of having access to all the money you work hard to earn!


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## 3Xnocharm

She is SO cheating. She hasn’t given a single thought to the logistics of the divorce, that’s obvious… because she’s been so caught up fantasizing what she’s going to be doing with this other guy when she gets her freedom that reality hasn’t even occurred to her yet. Never EVER think that someone doesn’t have time to cheat. Or that they have no interest in sex, etc or whatever hundred other excuses your mind comes up with. Read some of the stories in the infidelity forum. 

You did great with your conversation, well done. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Evinrude58

I agree that you did well to lay it out. That was hard as hell. Nothing she can do but respect you the way you handled yourself. 
If she’s cheating, it’s emotional abd that’s absolutely just as damaging to her feelings for you. Regardless, if you want a wife that loves you, gotta look elsewhere.


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## jonty30

Time2Change_IA said:


> I just took a quick look and as expected there’s nothing there. I don’t have detailed billing and with everything unlimited there’s nothing to see. Plus - with iMessage and FaceTime it’s all on Apple’s servers, same with Facebook Messenger, Snapchat, etc.


If she got an inheritance, that's a divisible asset because she got it while married.


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## drencrom

Beach123 said:


> I see her as spoiled. She gets the privilege of being able to stay home with her kids while you work to support the family… and this is how she thanks you? 😡
> You mentioned she got inheritance money. Did she invest it in both your names or hers only?


I don't think it matters if she invested it. Any money that comes in during marriage is a marital asset. If she got it before marriage, different story. It's all hers.

As far as your first couple sentences, all too familiar. What a way to thank someone that works so they don't have to. His wife must be a Democrat.


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## Rob_1

jonty30 said:


> If she got an inheritance, that's a divisible asset because she got it while married.


Unless the money was commingled with their joint assets, then no. In the US inheritances are separate individual assets, and they cannot be claimed in the division of assets during divorce. All you have to do is to keep it separated.
That's how it is in most states in the US I believe.


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## Time2Change_IA

This morning I applied for a new credit card that will be here next week and contacted several attorneys for consultation.

I shared all of this with her along with a request to go to the bank tomorrow and split the accounts and move to individual accounts.

Needless to say - this wasn’t well received. She wants to wait to separate the accounts until we have legal counsel (she doesn’t have an attorney) and is still set on keeping the house. She tried to work my retirement/pension into the equation as something she doesn’t have (offsetting my stake in the house) to which I disagreed - however it now feels like the tone will shift.

There are two significant concerns I have - her and her father can be aggressive when they want or feel they deserve something. Her father has significant financial reserves to throw at this and she said he told her not to worry about money.

So - we may be in for a fight that drains our money for them to prove a point.

Good times ahead!


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## Beach123

So she wants to use the money you earned to buy the house from you? 
Wow, that is a really twisted gal.
And also - She doesn’t work yet she has the money as a backup from daddy to buy you out? 
Now we see where her entitlement comes from. She doesn’t need to work… she’s always had men giving her things she wanted without lifting a finger.


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## drencrom

Time2Change_IA said:


> There are two significant concerns I have - her and her father can be aggressive when they want or feel they deserve something. Her father has significant financial reserves to throw at this and she said he told her not to worry about money.


Again, get a bulldog of an attorney and tell him/her this right here. He/she can deal with a judge and paint this as them trying to financially ruin you.


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## drencrom

@Time2Change_IA I will repeat, DO NOT discuss anything with her directly. You get an attorney, tell her to get her own, and anything she wants to discuss you do it through the attorneys.

You don't agree to ANYTHING with her. Your attorney will guide you.

I'll give you an example. When I had my second meeting with my attorney, I was under the assumption it would be amicable. Wrong.

Her attorney gave mine a letter basically saying they want more than like 80% of everything we owned. I flipped out! My attorney had to calm me down and tell me that I am reacting exactly the way they had hoped and that I'd call her before talking to him. He said she won't be getting half the things she mentioned and based on division of marital assets, it isn't going to go the way she thinks it will.....and he was right.

So my advice. Clam up, do not talk to her about anything and let your attorney guide you.


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## Beach123

Close every credit card and account with her name attached to yours.

Block all ways she can spend joint money!
If possible - take half of all money and place it in your name only accts.


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## Marc878

Time2Change_IA said:


> This morning I applied for a new credit card that will be here next week and contacted several attorneys for consultation.
> 
> I shared all of this with her along with a request to go to the bank tomorrow and split the accounts and move to individual accounts.
> 
> Needless to say - this wasn’t well received. She wants to wait to separate the accounts until we have legal counsel (she doesn’t have an attorney) and is still set on keeping the house. She tried to work my retirement/pension into the equation as something she doesn’t have (offsetting my stake in the house) to which I disagreed - however it now feels like the tone will shift.
> 
> There are two significant concerns I have - her and her father can be aggressive when they want or feel they deserve something. Her father has significant financial reserves to throw at this and she said he told her not to worry about money.
> 
> So - we may be in for a fight that drains our money for them to prove a point.
> 
> Good times ahead!


You are their enemy. Shes already lined up resources against you. 
She’s on the me, me, me train.
I’d see 3 attorney and pick the best one. Maybe you can get free consultations. Plus the more attorneys you tie up the better. 
Sounds like you are waking up to reality. Good!!!


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## Evinrude58

It’s amazing how people can turn on you like a rabid dog when they find out they aren’t going to get to use you anymore.
She will hire an attorney and that attorney has one goal: to extract as much as they can from YOU, and your STBXW (I hope for you) will relish doing it. 
Please be aware of this and don’t let your emotions for the person you thought she was, be used as a weakness that will be exploited by your adversary. Make no mistake, when you file papers, she will be your worst enemy.
It’s just how this goes almost invariably.


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## Time2Change_IA

Spoke with 2 attorneys (both free consultation) and will likely choose the one who stated he works for me and that based on the situation she won’t be eligible for spousal support (she’s also an RN with current license and CEUs) and with the job market can have a high paying job in 30 days - if she doesn’t that’s a choice she’s making. He also stated that spouses often have visions of grandeur and once they meet with their attorney they come back to reality. They each have a retainer and said it’s possible to do this for under a grand if things work out well - I’ll have a better idea over the next week.

Both advised taking 50% from the joint accounts (I took 42% as that’s how it worked out) leaving more than enough to cover the bills if she takes the same.

We will need to cohabitate for a while and it’s unlikely to get done in 90 days if we mediate. In Iowa, with case loads and the pandemic, it will go into 2023 if she plays hardball. Obviously we can’t put the house on the market any time soon.

I will sparingly share what I learned and what I did with her this evening and will now have my guard up.

It’s moving quickly right now and will likely stall out over the next month or so (after any immediate fireworks). Feels like I’m doing the right thing but I’m feeling ill with the emotions and reality - something else I can’t share with her. Weird she doesn’t have an attorney as she told me earlier today she’s been planning this for a year? Someone here mentioned that would be the case…


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## Evinrude58

moving quickly—- keep it that way. Divorce is a long process either way. You moving forward with your life and not wallowing in fear, self pity, shame (all emotions that I felt) is what will get you out of the most intense pain the fastest. Your wife may try to get you to put the brakes on when reality hits her square in the buttocks……. I’d advise against accepting that. You’ve accepted far to much from her already.


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## Erudite

Wanting and having fantasies about something for a year is not the same as planning...if that was the case I would be a swimsuit model by now. Ahem.


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## Beach123

I don’t think you owe sharing anything with her.

Let her find out when she’s served papers.


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## Time2Change_IA

Beach123 said:


> I don’t think you owe sharing anything with her.
> 
> Let her find out when she’s served papers.


Just that I moved the money - nothing else. Or maybe not - that would be a surprise to her. Now that I think about it…


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## Marc878

One thing you keep mentioning is her gay friend. I’ve seen this before and many times they label them gay for concealment. Just be aware. You won’t be the first or last to come here saying she wouldn’t cheat and find out later you’re wrong. However, it really doesn’t change anything as far as your needed course of action.


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## Marc878

Try and deal with reality. Many get caught up in the I love her so she must love me too,
Nope, her actions tell you that. It’s always actions mean more than words.

Sorry you are here but the more effective you deal with this the better off you’ll be.


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## Marc878

Time2Change_IA said:


> Just that I moved the money - nothing else. Or maybe not - that would be a surprise to her. Now that I think about it…


When reality faces them it’s probably going to turn into a different scenario. She is thinking all about herself. Not you. She’s probably thought it would be a cakewalk with you giving her whatever she wanted.

Remember you are her adversary now. Looking out for yourself is your only good path but will probably have consequences. Look at it like you are giving her what she asked for and taking care of yourself too.


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## Beach123

Don’t tell her anything. When she wants to know - she can go looking for the info.

You’ve done what’s right…for you and protecting yourself.

She’s a big girl making her own (bad) decisions - let her chase info she needs at this point.

When she asks you - don’t answer! Get out of the habit of telling her info.


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## Time2Change_IA

Marc878 said:


> One thing you keep mentioning is her gay friend. I’ve seen this before and many times they label them gay for concealment. Just be aware. You won’t be the first or last to come here saying she wouldn’t cheat and find out later you’re wrong. However, it really doesn’t change anything as far as your needed course of action.


Agree - right now it doesn’t change anything.
I’ve met him a number of times - it’s not a label.


----------



## Time2Change_IA

Marc878 said:


> Try and deal with reality. Many get caught up in the I love her so she must love me too,
> Nope, her actions tell you that. It’s always actions mean more than words.
> 
> Sorry you are here but the more effective you deal with this the better off you’ll be.


Agree.
After some long conversations with my mother and reflecting on parts of our marriage I’m starting to see her in a different light which is taking some of the edge off.


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## Time2Change_IA

Beach123 said:


> Don’t tell her anything. When she wants to know - she can go looking for the info.
> 
> You’ve done what’s right…for you and protecting yourself.
> 
> She’s a big girl making her own (bad) decisions - let her chase info she needs at this point.
> 
> When she asks you - don’t answer! Get out of the habit of telling her info.


Thank you.


----------



## Marc878

Time2Change_IA said:


> Agree.
> After some long conversations with my mother and reflecting on parts of our marriage I’m starting to see her in a different light which is taking some of the edge off.


Yep, most that reflect back see what they ignored or overlooked. If you can pull a hard no contact you’ll get there much quicker.


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## Marc878

Yes, learning it’s ok to ignore is important.


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## 3Xnocharm

Keep info to yourself. No more sharing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Time2Change_IA

Marc878 said:


> Yep, most that reflect back see what they ignored or overlooked. If you can pull a hard no contact you’ll get there much quicker.


Thank you.
Hard no contact might be a challenge in the short term as we’re still in the house. I am starting to look at apartments for February.


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## oldshirt

Time2Change_IA said:


> Thank you.
> Hard no contact might be a challenge in the short term as we’re still in the house. I am starting to look at apartments for February.


That is making it easy on her and accommodating her.

If she wants out of the marriage then SHE can get out in cold and look for apartments which are tight and expensive at the moment. 

Let her pack and move stuff. Let her pay deposits on utilities. 

If she wants to leave, she needs to put in the effort and expense of leaving.

Also, it may actually hurt you if you move out of the marital home. 

That could be twisted to show that YOU are the one abandoning the marital home and children.

Do not move out unless directed by your attorney.


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## Time2Change_IA

oldshirt said:


> That is making it easy on her and accommodating her.
> 
> If she wants out of the marriage then SHE can get out in cold and look for apartments which are tight and expensive at the moment.
> 
> Let her pack and move stuff. Let her pay deposits on utilities.
> 
> If she wants to leave, she needs to put in the effort and expense of leaving.
> 
> Also, it may actually hurt you if you move out of the marital home.
> 
> That could be twisted to show that YOU are the one abandoning the marital home and children.
> 
> Do not move out unless directed by your attorney.


That's a great point - thank you. I imagine it would hurt my custody battle if I were to leave.


----------



## oldshirt

Time2Change_IA said:


> That's a great point - thank you. I imagine it would hurt my custody battle if I were to leave.


It might or it might not hurt you in custody or court matters. That is why we have divorce attorneys. 

Your wife has already shown that now that the gauntlet has been thrown down that she is willing to dig in and fight. And if she’s willing to use Daddy’s money, that means she will be even more willing to use YOUR money and your own naïveté and foolishness to her advantage. 

Your best bet in all of this is to hire a good divorce attorney ( don’t try to get your cousin Ryan the small business contract attorney to do it on the family plan) and from there just do what your lawyer says.... no more, no less.

And as the others have said, STOP discussing this with her and stop telling her your plans and intentions. That is just like a football team telling the opposing team what their next play is going to be.

If she has questions, tell her to talk to your attorney. 

Yes, it will cost more upfront in the short term, But it will save you decades of paying out your azz more than what is legally required of you which is what will happen if you try to nickel and dime this.


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## Time2Change_IA

Noticing a shift in dynamics over the last couple of days - not saying it will last just different.

She’s checking in more when she’s out providing where she’s at and where she’s going with timeline by text (I can see the notification preview but don’t read the message so it doesn’t show “read” for hours). Saying goodbye and telling me where she’s headed. And yesterday she went to the mall to walk and sent me a screenshot of where and how far she walked - after a few off handed accusations of her having an affair she seems to want to remove doubts. I still don’t believe she is cheating and I don’t know if this behavior is in response to my actions or her concerns that accusations of infidelity would hurt her divorce in court. Any messages I send to her are short and too the point.

I haven’t shared that I moved money or consulted with attorneys but she might be aware or have a good idea. I’m on vacation this week (blessing in disguise?) and don’t have anything to do this week. Yesterday I left for 5 hours and while she knew I was returning calls to attorneys I never shared what happened, checked in or heard from her.


----------



## Time2Change_IA

I still don’t know if I should file and think I should wait for her to pull the trigger.

She wanted a divorce and I said I want to work on the marriage. She didn’t want to and said divorce was the only option so I consulted with legal counsel and made one move (money) to protect myself as this is turning from a marriage into a business arrangement.

I have counsel and advice - so I wait.


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## Beach123

You know you can change the setting on your phone so it doesn’t tell a person when you read it, right? Change that.
And the main reason she is still in the house is because you pay. She said she wanted a divorce so that’s what you’re giving her.

Tell her to move. You’re making her comfortable - and no one changes when they are comfortable. She may or may not change - but start making it so she isn’t comfortable in the home. Change brings hope.
And her checking in? Because she feels guilty! Seems like too little too late! It’s not because she is handing you peace of mind - it’s because she wants you to continue providing her cushy life for free. Don’t be her plan B. Just don’t.
And yes, file. It doesn’t mean the divorce is final when you file - there’s plenty of time for things to play out.


----------



## Evinrude58

Time2Change_IA said:


> I still don’t know if I should file and think I should wait for her to pull the trigger.
> 
> She wanted a divorce and I said I want to work on the marriage. She didn’t want to and said divorce was the only option so I consulted with legal counsel and made one move (money) to protect myself as this is turning from a marriage into a business arrangement.
> 
> I have counsel and advice - so I wait.


So you actually took a step in the other direction and you get messages and such. Any sex? And back ribs? Any cooking? Any LOVE?????
You are with a woman that has told you she wants a divorce, doesn’t want an intimate relationship with you. She is simply using you as a convenience and paycheck. That’s not going to change. It’s kind of a lengthy pattern at this point. She will very, very likely start throwing you breadcrumbs to back you off divorce. Munch the heck out of them. You only have one life. If you’re satisfied with that, it’s your choice. But honestly, you’ve not only been seeing, but have been flat out told how your life with her is going to be. Hell man, at least get the papers filed so you can get a wee bit of false intimacy for a while before she convinces you to stay. 
You’re making a poor choice I think. Eventually she’s gonna get her ducks in a row and leave you once she talks to an attorney and finds out how much she’s gonna get from you. You’ve been told. She TOLD you.
If not listening to us, listen to your own wife.


----------



## Time2Change_IA

Beach123 said:


> You know you can change the setting on your phone so it doesn’t tell a person when you read it, right? Change that.
> And the main reason she is still in the house is because you pay. She said she wanted a divorce so that’s what you’re giving her.
> 
> Tell her to move. You’re making her comfortable - and no one changes when they are comfortable. She may or may not change - but start making it so she isn’t comfortable in the home. Change brings hope.
> And her checking in? Because she feels guilty! Seems like too little too late! It’s not because she is handing you peace of mind - it’s because she wants you to continue providing her cushy life for free. Don’t be her plan B. Just don’t.
> And yes, file. It doesn’t mean the divorce is final when you file - there’s plenty of time for things to play out.


I can turn off notifications for iMessage and frankly it bothers me when people do it. She knows when I've read her message but doesn't need to think I'm too attentive so I eventually read them.

I think she's here for 2 reasons -
1 - kids still don't know what's happening and won't for nearly a month
2 - once they know both of us are concerned with keeping them in the same school (remember we just moved here and they're finally settled). This is currently their home and while I'd like one of us to move, I won't and she's stubborn. 

I get the power struggle back and forth but I have limitations when the kids are involved and the action isn't mandatory - I won't waiver on this in our current state.


----------



## Time2Change_IA

Evinrude58 said:


> So you actually took a step in the other direction and you get messages and such. Any sex? And back ribs? Any cooking? Any LOVE?????
> You are with a woman that has told you she wants a divorce, doesn’t want an intimate relationship with you. She is simply using you as a convenience and paycheck. That’s not going to change. It’s kind of a lengthy pattern at this point. She will very, very likely start throwing you breadcrumbs to back you off divorce. Munch the heck out of them. You only have one life. If you’re satisfied with that, it’s your choice. But honestly, you’ve not only been seeing, but have been flat out told how your life with her is going to be. Hell man, at least get the papers filed so you can get a wee bit of false intimacy for a while before she convinces you to stay.
> You’re making a poor choice I think. Eventually she’s gonna get her ducks in a row and leave you once she talks to an attorney and finds out how much she’s gonna get from you. You’ve been told. She TOLD you.
> If not listening to us, listen to your own wife.


Likely due to the power shift. Until Monday I was the doting husband - after our talk, when she still stated divorce is the only option, I changed. Confident, matter of fact, and started taking action. Probably not what she expected. We still play well in front of the kids (out to eat, board games, etc.) but no back rubs, sex or intimacy.


----------



## Evinrude58

Time2Change_IA said:


> Likely due to the power shift. Until Monday I was the doting husband - after our talk, when she still stated divorce is the only option, I changed. Confident, matter of fact, and started taking action. Probably not what she expected. We still play well in front of the kids (out to eat, board games, etc.) *but no back rubs, sex or intimacy.*


Same old same old. She isn’t ever going to be a loving wife. If you’re gonna stay, start building a life without her and then just make it happen. I personally know how hard it is to start over with kids. But remember, you only have one life to live. I wouldn’t live it with a frigid wife. Life is hard enough as it is.


----------



## Beach123

Playing fake happy marriage won’t fool your kids, they always know.

You think you’re fooling others (even with the “read” messages). Quit playing the fake games.

Be honest. Live an honest life. Stop pretending, I guess that bothers me about this thread - all the pretending. She isn’t a good wife. Since she has no intention to be - it’s not useful to “wait a month” - that’s an illusion you two are telling yourselves. Be honest with your kids - they likely already know what’s real.


----------



## oldshirt

Time2Change_IA said:


> I still don’t know if I should file and think I should wait for her to pull the trigger.
> 
> She wanted a divorce and I said I want to work on the marriage. She didn’t want to and said divorce was the only option so I consulted with legal counsel and made one move (money) to protect myself as this is turning from a marriage into a business arrangement.
> 
> I have counsel and advice - so I wait.


At least have all your prep work and ducks in a row so that you can file at any moment if you need to.


----------



## Time2Change_IA

Beach123 said:


> Playing fake happy marriage won’t fool your kids, they always know.
> 
> You think you’re fooling others (even with the “read” messages). Quit playing the fake games.
> 
> Be honest. Live an honest life. Stop pretending, I guess that bothers me about this thread - all the pretending. She isn’t a good wife. Since she has no intention to be - it’s not useful to “wait a month” - that’s an illusion you two are telling yourselves. Be honest with your kids - they likely already know what’s real.


I understand where you're coming from - I get it.

I came here on 12/25 with my first post stating she wanted a divorce and I wanted to save the marriage on my own - started getting replies and advice on the 26th.

Here we are 4 days later and I've given her an ultimatum, reached out to attorneys, separated our finances and am ready to pay the $3,500 retainer then wait for next steps. IMHO that's moving pretty fast in 4 days. I don't know your experiences and you have a limited snapshot of mine - I appreciate your feedback and advice (really I do!) but after 20 years and 2 kids, even if I caught her in our bed with someone else there would be a roller coaster of acceptance, grievance and eventually moving on. Anything else and I wouldn't be human.

So - I don't know if it's "pretending" as much as taking a moment or two to enjoy the smooth part of the roller coaster.

As always - thank you for the tough feedback


----------



## Time2Change_IA

This afternoon she brought the mail in which included a statement for our auto insurance. I simply stated “oh - that’s something else we need to work on getting switched over”. Her response? “We can slow down a little as that’s not something we need to worry about right now.”

My guess is this may slow down. I’ll give her a week to coordinate with her dad and if nothing happens make a decision with regards to filing myself.


----------



## farsidejunky

Time2Change_IA said:


> I can turn off notifications for iMessage and frankly it bothers me when people do it. She knows when I've read her message but doesn't need to think I'm too attentive so I eventually read them.
> 
> I think she's here for 2 reasons -
> 1 - kids still don't know what's happening and won't for nearly a month
> 2 - once they know both of us are concerned with keeping them in the same school (remember we just moved here and they're finally settled). This is currently their home and while I'd like one of us to move, I won't and she's stubborn.
> 
> I get the power struggle back and forth but I have limitations when the kids are involved and the action isn't mandatory - I won't waiver on this in our current state.


You are doing fine. Sometimes, when we are surrounded by chaos, the best thing we can do is remain still.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

Time2Change_IA said:


> This afternoon she brought the smile in which included a statement for our auto insurance. I simply stated “oh - that’s something else we need to work on getting switched over”. Her response? “We can slow down a little as that’s not something we need to worry about right now.”
> 
> My guess is this may slow down. I’ll give her a week to coordinate with her dad and if nothing happens make a decision with regards to filing myself.


You have the right attitude here.

Make sure every decision made moving forward is what most benefits you and your kids. Sometimes that may include benefiting your wife as well, and that's okay.

Just make sure you're not putting off decisions or giving in on things with the hope that it will somehow sway her.

You and your kids become the only priority in this situation. All decisions should be filtered through that lens.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Cletus

farsidejunky said:


> You have the right attitude here.
> 
> Make sure every decision made moving forward is what most benefits you and your kids. Sometimes that may include benefiting your wife as well, and that's okay.
> 
> Just make sure you're not putting off decisions or giving in on things with the hope that it will somehow sway her.


Full agreement here. I haven't been through a divorce, but if you want an amicable separation, be amicable. You don't have to do things out of spite or go out of your way to make her life difficult. You just need to ensure that everything you do now is geared towards surviving a cliff you know is probably coming. 

Detachment is a gift that allows you to be calm in a storm. Once someone else can't wrap you around an axle, you find often that the axle itself has disappeared.


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## Beach123

So she is making it clear that it’s ok for YOU to continue paying for her lifestyle - but she wants to focus on not being your partner…

Well, she is consistent! Why you want to allow her to use you for another month is baffling.

I understand you are getting used to this new idea - but put your foot down and simply say “you wanted this - this is what you get! So start being responsible for your own bills honey”.

Reality for her is going to be hard. She’s just switching her obligations though, from one man to another - her dad. 

It’s disgusting she has no intention of working/supporting herself. Looks like her mindset is to use men.


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## Marc878

Time2Change_IA said:


> Noticing a shift in dynamics over the last couple of days - not saying it will last just different.
> 
> She’s checking in more when she’s out providing where she’s at and where she’s going with timeline by text (I can see the notification preview but don’t read the message so it doesn’t show “read” for hours). Saying goodbye and telling me where she’s headed. And yesterday she went to the mall to walk and sent me a screenshot of where and how far she walked - after a few off handed accusations of her having an affair she seems to want to remove doubts. I still don’t believe she is cheating and I don’t know if this behavior is in response to my actions or her concerns that accusations of infidelity would hurt her divorce in court. Any messages I send to her are short and too the point.
> 
> I haven’t shared that I moved money or consulted with attorneys but she might be aware or have a good idea. I’m on vacation this week (blessing in disguise?) and don’t have anything to do this week. Yesterday I left for 5 hours and while she knew I was returning calls to attorneys I never shared what happened, checked in or heard from her.


You are analyzing everything shes doing. Pretty common from what I’ve see. It’s called hopium. Don’t set yourself up for disappointment.


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## 3Xnocharm

Ask her how her job search is going. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Time2Change_IA

Marc878 said:


> You are analyzing everything shes doing. Pretty common from what I’ve see. It’s called hopium. Don’t set yourself up for disappointment.


So I am a thinker and I analyze people - definitely true.
Never heard of hopium but I looked it up and the definition makes sense. I don’t believe I’m setting myself up for disappointment as I no longer have hope this marriage will survive. I do see changes in her behaviors and relate them back to things I’ve read about how the dynamics must change when one variable starts acting differently.


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## Time2Change_IA

3Xnocharm said:


> Ask her how her job search is going.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Haven’t needed to - so far she’s openly sharing. She’ll be returning to the job she left at the start of the pandemic next week (when daughter returns to in person learning) as part time and will see what’s available for full time. She’s aware of two nursing jobs in the area that she will also be pursuing.


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## Beach123

You want to be the one driving the bus, not her.
Take charge of your future. Be the one acting on things instead of texting.

Notice how you change something and she keeps trying to stop you? You want more of that. You want her reacting instead of setting the pace. 
Right now SHE is still setting the pace by even suggesting things don’t need to change.

Start dropping ALL the consequences of being an adult into HER lap… and I mean ALL that she should have been responsible for throughout the marriage. Start making her scared! So scared that maybe she starts to respect you again. 
She thinks you’re weak. She can push you around. Make sure that stops.


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## Evinrude58

I think you should just do what you know you should have done a long time ago: set her free so you can both have a chance to find someone that makes your life better.

Any kind of kibbles she sends your way are only to keep you in whatever role it is you fulfill in her life—it’s certainly not for your benefit.

There are women out there that enjoy having a husband that wants regular sex, intimate conversation, is a helpmate……. But I admit they are very difficult to find all 3 traits in.😋


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## oldshirt

I and several of the other posters have been operating on the assumption that there is another person involved. 

I still think that is you were to go into full detective mode or hire a PI, that you will find out that is the case.

However, we have to accept the fact there might NOT be a 3rd party involved. 

If that is the case, then she simply doesn’t like you and doesn’t want to be with you anymore and would rather be on her own than with you. 

Which is better/which is worse? 

Does it even really matter to YOU? Some people would need to know the bottom line on whether there was someone else. 

Other people just the fact their partner wants to get away from them is enough for them to pull the ejection handle. 

You seem pretty confident she is not involved with someone else but also seem like you are getting ready to cut the cord anyway. 

Will knowing for sure that she is or is not seeing someone else impact your decisions and actions going forward?


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## Erudite

oldshirt said:


> I and several of the other posters have been operating on the assumption that there is another person involved.
> 
> I still think that is you were to go into full detective mode or hire a PI, that you will find out that is the case.
> 
> However, we have to accept the fact there might NOT be a 3rd party involved.
> 
> If that is the case, then she simply doesn’t like you and doesn’t want to be with you anymore and would rather be on her own than with you.
> 
> Which is better/which is worse?
> 
> Does it even really matter to YOU? Some people would need to know the bottom line on whether there was someone else.
> 
> Other people just the fact their partner wants to get away from them is enough for them to pull the ejection handle.
> 
> You seem pretty confident she is not involved with someone else but also seem like you are getting ready to cut the cord anyway.
> 
> Will knowing for sure that she is or is not seeing someone else impact your decisions and actions going forward?


Old Shirt raises a good question here. If she is not cheating are you willing to stay in a loveless marriage? Even if only for the kids sake? It will be interesting to see whether or not her time frame for telling the kids comes to pass. If it comes and goes with no effort on HER part is she still thinking better to stay due to kids?
Questions. Questions. Questions.


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## Time2Change_IA

oldshirt said:


> I and several of the other posters have been operating on the assumption that there is another person involved.
> 
> I still think that is you were to go into full detective mode or hire a PI, that you will find out that is the case.
> 
> However, we have to accept the fact there might NOT be a 3rd party involved.
> 
> If that is the case, then she simply doesn’t like you and doesn’t want to be with you anymore and would rather be on her own than with you.
> 
> Which is better/which is worse?
> 
> Does it even really matter to YOU? Some people would need to know the bottom line on whether there was someone else.
> 
> Other people just the fact their partner wants to get away from them is enough for them to pull the ejection handle.
> 
> You seem pretty confident she is not involved with someone else but also seem like you are getting ready to cut the cord anyway.
> 
> Will knowing for sure that she is or is not seeing someone else impact your decisions and actions going forward?


Thank you.

I’m getting ready to cut the cord as that’s what she said she wants and as this will likely take time (probably at least 4 - 6 months best case scenario) so we should start the process.

I’ve never really gotten into what’s happened in our marriage or with my parenting abilities in detail but suffice to say I have opportunities. I did hint that I was emotionally unavailable, took stress out on my family and have a poor relationship with my son (good relationship with my daughter but the imbalance causes issues).

So my wife is in the same place as many - she’s felt like a single mom for years, doesn’t feel like I support her (emotionally), feels like the family is always walking on eggshells to appease me, has learned how to be non-confrontational with me to avoid friction, and is heartbroken my son doesn’t think I wanted to have him.

That’s quite a bit to take in. She’s not perfect and has as much fault in this as I do - it’s interesting (but not unexpected) how many ways I’m similar to her father and how she copes with me is how she learned to cope with her father. We’ve been continuing to have conversations about my childhood now that I’m finally starting to deal with this (including conversations with my mother who admitted this week she was too strict with me) and my wife mentioned that she never realized what I’d been through growing up (remember I don’t discuss emotions). I do realize I’m walking a fine line as she and her therapist could claim emotional abuse in the divorce hearing when asking for spousal support or custodial rights - however I weigh this with the feedback I’m receiving from someone who’s been with me for a long time. For example I gave my son a compliment at dinner last night and his response was “oh - I thought you were being sarcastic” - all I could think was “WTF” and my wife and I had a moment through a glance across the table that this is what I’ve been failing to understand.

So am I the perfect husband and father providing her the perfect life - no. Is she the perfect wife willing to stick to her vows through better or worse - no.


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## Time2Change_IA

Erudite said:


> Old Shirt raises a good question here. If she is not cheating are you willing to stay in a loveless marriage? Even if only for the kids sake? It will be interesting to see whether or not her time frame for telling the kids comes to pass. If it comes and goes with no effort on HER part is she still thinking better to stay due to kids?
> Questions. Questions. Questions.


Great question!
I think my recent response to Old Shirt may provide some insight.


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## Laurentium

Time2Change_IA said:


> So am I the perfect husband and father providing her the perfect life - no. Is she the perfect wife willing to stick to her vows through better or worse - no.


A lot of work going on! 

Yes, be cool. Don't rush at things like car insurance.


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## Laurentium

Remind me -- what do _you_ want?


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## farsidejunky

Time2Change_IA said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I’m getting ready to cut the cord as that’s what she said she wants and as this will likely take time (probably at least 4 - 6 months best case scenario) so we should start the process.
> 
> I’ve never really gotten into what’s happened in our marriage or with my parenting abilities in detail but suffice to say I have opportunities. I did hint that I was emotionally unavailable, took stress out on my family and have a poor relationship with my son (good relationship with my daughter but the imbalance causes issues).
> 
> So my wife is in the same place as many - she’s felt like a single mom for years, doesn’t feel like I support her (emotionally), feels like the family is always walking on eggshells to appease me, has learned how to be non-confrontational with me to avoid friction, and is heartbroken my son doesn’t think I wanted to have him.
> 
> That’s quite a bit to take in. She’s not perfect and has as much fault in this as I do - it’s interesting (but not unexpected) how many ways I’m similar to her father and how she copes with me is how she learned to cope with her father. We’ve been continuing to have conversations about my childhood now that I’m finally starting to deal with this (including conversations with my mother who admitted this week she was too strict with me) and my wife mentioned that she never realized what I’d been through growing up (remember I don’t discuss emotions). I do realize I’m walking a fine line as she and her therapist could claim emotional abuse in the divorce hearing when asking for spousal support or custodial rights - however I weigh this with the feedback I’m receiving from someone who’s been with me for a long time. For example I gave my son a compliment at dinner last night and his response was “oh - I thought you were being sarcastic” - all I could think was “WTF” and my wife and I had a moment through a glance across the table that this is what I’ve been failing to understand.
> 
> So am I the perfect husband and father providing her the perfect life - no. Is she the perfect wife willing to stick to her vows through better or worse - no.


Self-reflection should absolutely be a part of your process. After all, if we don't seize the opportunities that life presents us to make ourselves better people, we're doing a disservice to both ourselves and our loved ones.

That said, make sure your growth is for you. The motivation should be to improve yourself. Don't even begin to go down the road of thinking it will somehow bring your wife back to you or save your marriage.

Improving yourself for others is a fool's errand. Allowing others to benefit from the improved you, because you did so for you, is the goal.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Erudite

farsidejunky said:


> Self-reflection should absolutely be a part of your process. After all, if we don't seize the opportunities that life presents us to make ourselves better people, we're doing a disservice to both ourselves and our loved ones.
> 
> That said, make sure your growth is for you. The motivation should be to improve yourself. Don't even begin to go down the road of thinking it will somehow bring your wife back to you or save your marriage.
> 
> Improving yourself for others is a fool's errand. Allowing others to benefit from the improved you, because you did so for you, is the goal.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Improving one's self for one's self is great. Often, though, I see other people EXPECT certain behaviours. Like OP's wife over the years "If you loved me (us) you would do XYZ". That is the expectation and tone set. On the flip if someone does improve for themselves then it is flipped onto their spouse. If YOU loved ME YOU would XYZ." I amnot saying it's right. It os what it is. OP's ex set certain behaviours she expected him to live up to. Maybe they were reasonable expectations. Maybe not. But he got implicit message loud and clear.


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## Time2Change_IA

farsidejunky said:


> Self-reflection should absolutely be a part of your process. After all, if we don't seize the opportunities that life presents us to make ourselves better people, we're doing a disservice to both ourselves and our loved ones.
> 
> That said, make sure your growth is for you. The motivation should be to improve yourself. Don't even begin to go down the road of thinking it will somehow bring your wife back to you or save your marriage.
> 
> Improving yourself for others is a fool's errand. Allowing others to benefit from the improved you, because you did so for you, is the goal.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Thank you.
Challenge for me is this is my second marriage and the first one (10 years, no kids with her although she had 3) ended in a similar fashion. I did some self reflection after the first divorce and convinced myself that while I contributed to the failure she had significant issues. Now that I’m hearing similar concerns I’m taking notice in a different way. So either I’m drawn to similar personalities (likely) or I really need to take her feedback to heart and ensure I work on breaking my cycle. And - I need to break the cycle of my father and grandfather’s parenting as well as address the impacts from my mother to be a better parent to my children.

I’m not doing this with hopes of changing the outcome - but I’m feeling some heavy emotions, unlocking childhood memories, putting some pieces together and having significant realizations right now.


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## Beach123

That’s all good as long as you accept that she wants the marriage ended.

You should always be looking forward ways to improve yourself - not just now or when trauma hits you - but just because you want improvement in your life. Life is meant to always change. So if it’s not changing - it’s up to you to begin changing everything.

Look at this as an opportunity for you to grow and learn how to be the best you can be.


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## farsidejunky

Time2Change_IA said:


> Thank you.
> Challenge for me is this is my second marriage and the first one (10 years, no kids with her although she had 3) ended in a similar fashion. I did some self reflection after the first divorce and convinced myself that while I contributed to the failure she had significant issues. Now that I’m hearing similar concerns I’m taking notice in a different way. So either I’m drawn to similar personalities (likely) or I really need to take her feedback to heart and ensure I work on breaking my cycle. And - I need to break the cycle of my father and grandfather’s parenting as well as address the impacts from my mother to be a better parent to my children.
> 
> I’m not doing this with hopes of changing the outcome - but I’m feeling some heavy emotions, unlocking childhood memories, putting some pieces together and having significant realizations right now.


Of course. 

True self reflection and improvement - the kind where you dig into those deep, dark places you desperately hide from the rest of the world - is ALWAYS painful, mostly because it forces us to acknowledge aspects of ourselves that are often born of pain.

Unfortunately, without doing so, you are effectively changing the drapes in your living room out while the foundation of your home is crumbling. 

Keep going. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Time2Change_IA

Last night she shared that she filed her petition on Tuesday.

I'm going to pay my retainer this morning (if they're open) and at this point I just wait for papers? I asked if she can deliver them to me or if I need to be "served" and she doesn't know.


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## jonty30

Time2Change_IA said:


> Last night she shared that she filed her petition on Tuesday.
> 
> I'm going to pay my retainer this morning (if they're open) and at this point I just wait for papers? I asked if she can deliver them to me or if I need to be "served" and she doesn't know.


I wouldn't take her word on anything, until it is in your hand.


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## Time2Change_IA

jonty30 said:


> I wouldn't take her word on anything, until it is in your hand.


I assume that if I pay my retainer and she didn’t file (or pulls it) my money just sits?

I’m sure she did. Said after I told her Tuesday that I was interviewing attorneys she called one that she liked and had her file. But she also told me she hadn’t chosen an attorney on Tuesday 🤷‍♂️.


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## LisaDiane

farsidejunky said:


> Improving yourself for others is a fool's errand. Allowing others to benefit from the improved you, because you did so for you, is the goal.


THIS is exactly right!


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## Openminded

I believe in most states you can acknowledge service (signed and notarized) rather than wait to be served.


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## Time2Change_IA

She found this morning that I moved the money and confronted me with “what did you do with the money?!”.

I calmly stated that I moved it after our discussion earlier this week. I said I was advised to move up to half and I took less than half, and if she does the same will leave $10k to cover bills.

Her first response “you’re the one who’s going to get f’d.” Said I don’t think so as this is within my rights. She said her attorney said we shouldn’t do anything until after the papers are signed and she’s been transparent with the money.

I replied that I was given different counsel. Asked what she thought was going to happen as this was inevitable and reminded her she’s been planning this for a year without telling me so her “transparency argument” isn’t valid, and we’re now moving from a marriage to a business arrangement and I left.

My attorney isn’t open (New Year’s Eve) so I left a message to set up an appointment next week.


----------



## Evinrude58

Time2Change_IA said:


> She found this morning that I moved the money and confronted me with “what did you do with the money?!”.
> 
> I calmly stated that I moved it after our discussion earlier this week. I said I was advised to move up to half and I took less than half, and if she does the same will leave $10k to cover bills.
> 
> Her first response “you’re the one who’s going to get f’d.” Said I don’t think so as this is within my rights. She said her attorney said we shouldn’t do anything until after the papers are signed and she’s been transparent with the money.
> 
> I replied that I was given different counsel. *Asked what she thought was going to happen as this was inevitable and reminded her she’s been planning this for a year without telling me so her “transparency argument” isn’t valid, and we’re now moving from a marriage to a business arrangement and I left*.
> 
> My attorney isn’t open (New Year’s Eve) so I left a message to set up an appointment next week.


Well put. Be aware that she said you’re the “one who is going to get f’ed”……
So she totally plans to be the one doing the f’ing. It’s rare that someone like your wife who has been using you for so long, won’t get hyper-adversarial when you cut off the gravy train. I would advise wearing a VAR in her presence so she can’t have the police remove you from your home with false accusations.

pretty telling that she’s not the least worried about losing her husband, but damn….. you messing with the money???!!!!!!
She goes Bonkers!!


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## Time2Change_IA

Evinrude58 said:


> Well put. Be aware that she said you’re the “one who is going to get f’ed”……
> So she totally plans to be the one doing the f’ing. It’s rare that someone like your wife who has been using you for so long, won’t get hyper-adversarial when you cut off the gravy train. I would advise wearing a VAR in her presence so she can’t have the police remove you from your home with false accusations.
> 
> pretty telling that she’s not the least worried about losing her husband, but damn….. you messing with the money???!!!!!!
> She goes Bonkers!!


I think she's having an emotional reaction right now which is likely - she did share that when she decided to file this week it was an emotional decision.

She says she's upset that she wanted to have a transparent amicable transition and didn't plan on moving money (then asked if I also changed my direct deposit???!!??) - I get it but this hasn't been transparent until a few weeks ago. *I also think reality is setting in and I've upset the balance of how she assumed this was going to play out.* I'm home now and we're keeping it civil - she called when I was out "to see where I was" and we talked again about how this has been her decision and there are going to be discussions and decisions made that won't always feel comfortable to both of us.


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## Marc878

Most will go for everything they can get. You’d be wise to treat this as a business decision on your part. Trust nothing from her end. Protect yourself first and foremost. 
You are correct. She is the one who now has to deal with reality. Beware!!


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## Time2Change_IA

Marc878 said:


> Most will go for everything they can get. You’d be wise to treat this as a business decision on your part. Trust nothing from her end. Protect yourself first and foremost.
> You are correct. She is the one who now has to deal with reality. Beware!!


Yes -
It’s now a business relationship and no longer a marriage.


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## Evinrude58

Time2Change_IA said:


> I think she's having an emotional reaction right now which is likely - she did share that when she decided to file this week it was an emotional decision.
> 
> She says she's upset that she wanted to have a transparent amicable transition and didn't plan on moving money (then asked if I also changed my direct deposit???!!??) - I get it but this hasn't been transparent until a few weeks ago. *I also think reality is setting in and I've upset the balance of how she assumed this was going to play out.* I'm home now and we're keeping it civil - she called when I was out "to see where I was" and we talked again about how this has been her decision and there are going to be discussions and decisions made that won't always feel comfortable to both of us.


Emotional reaction to how she feels about lifting your security and support, not about losing you as a person…… remember how she has been toward you all this time. Expect the fangs to come out very soon. It’s just how this goes 99.9% of the time. You’ll find out her true colors when you deal with her in this divorce thing.


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## Livvie

Time2Change_IA said:


> Last night she shared that she filed her petition on Tuesday.
> 
> I'm going to pay my retainer this morning (if they're open) and at this point I just wait for papers? I asked if she can deliver them to me or if I need to be "served" and she doesn't know.


She doesn't know much. Unless or until you are actually served, by her or by another means, "filing" doesn't mean much.


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## farsidejunky

Time2Change_IA said:


> I think she's having an emotional reaction right now which is likely - she did share that when she decided to file this week it was an emotional decision.
> 
> She says she's upset that she wanted to have a transparent amicable transition and didn't plan on moving money (then asked if I also changed my direct deposit???!!??) - I get it but this hasn't been transparent until a few weeks ago. *I also think reality is setting in and I've upset the balance of how she assumed this was going to play out.* I'm home now and we're keeping it civil - she called when I was out "to see where I was" and we talked again about how this has been her decision and there are going to be discussions and decisions made that won't always feel comfortable to both of us.


Yep.

To this point, things for her were all tailwinds and smooth sailing. You had to go and rain reality on her fantasy. 

It is time to learn boundary statements. The idea behind these statements is to simultaneously enforce your boundaries and to not engage in arguments with her, which will continue to happen as you continue to surprise her.

1. "I'm not okay with X (yelling, belittling, etc.)."

Use this when she does things that cross your boundaries. 

2. "I'm sorry you feel that way." 

Use this when she says things about you that you know aren't true, are exaggerated, or are insulting. 

3. "You do what you feel you have to do. I will do the same."

Use this when she makes threats, eg. "I will clean you out in court".

4. "Are you done?"

Use this whenever you feel like she is repeating a point that has already been made.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Time2Change_IA

farsidejunky said:


> Yep.
> 
> To this point, things for her were all tailwinds and smooth sailing. You had to go and rain reality on her fantasy.
> 
> It is time to learn boundary statements. The idea behind these statements is to simultaneously enforce your boundaries and to not engage in arguments with her, which will continue to happen as you continue to surprise her.
> 
> 1. "I'm not okay with X (yelling, belittling, etc.)."
> 
> Use this when she does things that cross your boundaries.
> 
> 2. "I'm sorry you feel that way."
> 
> Use this when she says things about you that you know aren't true, are exaggerated, or are insulting.
> 
> 3. "You do what you feel you have to do. I will do the same."
> 
> Use this when she makes threats, eg. "I will clean you out in court".
> 
> 4. "Are you done?"
> 
> Use this whenever you feel like she is repeating a point that has already been made.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Thank you - great advice!


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## Time2Change_IA

Not much to update.

Saturday night we were almost intimate and stopped it - we both agreed we were interested but that it would complicate things. She’s been sleeping on the couch since Sunday.

Yesterday I met with my attorney, signed the agreement and paid the retainer. I provided him with my wife’s attorney and they’re in contact. He will accept the petition on my behalf so there’s no reason to serve me. Hopefully I’ll get it by tomorrow which I believe starts the 90 day timer. We need to provide financial disclosures and take an online “children in the middle class” as there’s no mandatory counseling.

If all goes well this should be over in 90 days - fingers crossed. Now on to getting the house ready to sell - would be great to have it on the market before April.

I’m looking forward to my new life.


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## farsidejunky

Don't be surprised if you stepping back from intimacy with her has the opposite effect. 

There are two thing at play here:

First, you denying her will play to her ego in that she will question if she still "has it".

Second, women respect restraint, even if they don't always like it. 

Just be ready. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Time2Change_IA

farsidejunky said:


> Don't be surprised if you stepping back from intimacy with her has the opposite effect.
> 
> There are two thing at play here:
> 
> First, you denying her will play to her ego in that she will question if she still "has it".
> 
> Second, women respect restraint, even if they don't always like it.
> 
> Just be ready.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Good points.

We'll see as it's not a focal point for me any longer but we will be together in the house for a few months.


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## Lostinthought61

Couple follow ups you might want to look at addressing 

Changing the Will if something should happen before and after the Divorce
Changing any life insurance beneficiary, so she is off it and they go to your kids director or a guardian if they are not old enough 
(you would not believe the people i know who forget that and an ex spouse suddenly gets an unintended windfall)
Bank account ownership upon death.
Stock ownership upon death 

not sure which apply to you but you get the picture.


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## Time2Change_IA

Lostinthought61 said:


> Couple follow ups you might want to look at addressing
> 
> Changing the Will if something should happen before and after the Divorce
> Changing any life insurance beneficiary, so she is off it and they go to your kids director or a guardian if they are not old enough
> (you would not believe the people i know who forget that and an ex spouse suddenly gets an unintended windfall)
> Bank account ownership upon death.
> Stock ownership upon death
> 
> not sure which apply to you but you get the picture.


Thank you!
I’ve started making lists of everything that needs to be done - from beneficiaries to our Netflix account.


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