# Recently Engaged And Having Serious Doubts



## statuscomforts

I have no idea how to start this so I'm just forcing myself to start typing. One thing that comes to mind is I will TRY to make this unbiased as possible and admit my own faults, and I also pray SOMEONE will read and give me some guidance. I'm sure it will skip around around or not so sorry if it's hard to follow.

I've been together with this woman for 3 years, we just got engaged a month ago....but let me go to the beginning.

I remember when I used to dream of having my own family. In high school and after I messed around alot but I always hoped I would have 3-4 kids with a woman I loved and everything would be wonderful. I got into trouble alot in my late teens and it caused a disconnect all the way until now, and I'm 28. I guess I just thought if I had my only family they could not shut me out like mine did.

I met this girl in a party atmosphere at a race track. I honestly didn't immediately think she was attractive but from what she says she was in love with me since the first night she met me. I really just kind of went with it that night to well....see if we could have some fun. She struck me as a little rude and forward, and was crying because no one would help her find her car...but she was persistent. After that night the next weekend she contacted me and we decided to go on a date...where she proceeded to get hammered and start telling me how much she loved me and that she "had a feeling" about us. She started acting really crazy when we got back to the house and I asked her to leave. She refused and I had to be really mean and curse her out just to get her to go. I called a cab for her and the cab driver and I had to TRICK her to get into the cab by having me sit in the back seat with the child safety locks on and when she got in I jumped out....20 minutes later i heard a knock at my door. It was her, with no shoes and no cab. I asked her where the cab was and she told me "I forgot my shoes so I came back for them." I called the cab driver and he told me she climbed into the front seat and jumped out of the cab through the passenger side WHILE IT WAS MOVING. No joke. Then she walked 20 minutes back to my house. I let her sleep the drink off and the next day I drove her back to her house and told her I never wanted to see her again. She was completely different, sweet and nice and begged me to give her a second chance. She hung onto my car door and would let me drive off until I agreed to another date because "that wasn't like her and shes never done anything like that before." I told her I would to get away. She persistently called me until I went on the date with her next. To my surprise, she was completely sweet. And continued to be. A relationship developed. Things were good for awhile. Her apartment lease went up and she didn't have a job (her aunt was paying her 1300 rent). Oh and I should mention she has a child from a prior relationship whos father is not in the picture. I let her and her son move in with me after 3 months of dating....I thought, worst that could happen is it doesn't work out....I remember telling that to people. Since then, she has infiltrated every facet of my life she can. There were some really good ups, and some really bad downs...like really bad...like called the cops downs, or her threatening to kill herself downs...many times i tried to leave but she would beg for me to come back and promise it would change and it would....for about a month or less. Around 1 1/2 years dating she turned into a perfect angel...I thought that we had a breakthrough....I thought all the things i was trying to teach her were paying off. She begged me for another child....I told her having a child was something that I have always wanted and I wanted to be married first so I'd know it would be forever...She persisted, and I caved again. As soon as she read the plus on the stick, i proceeded to endure the worst 9 months of my life. I could swear she was the devil. I hated her for what i felt like was tricking me into having a child. It absolutely ruined every idea I had about having a baby and by the time the baby was born, I wanted to leave and felt no attachment to the newborn child. I was not allowed to participate or make any decisions in the pregnancy. I felt like my baby girl was not even mine. I left again, but after heavy critisism from my family i went back. They made it seem like I was dooming my child to a miserable life and I should be the one that is miserable instead. The "sacrifice." Things had more ups and downs and ups and downs. She made good with my parents...better than I ever could...They have told me that she is more family than I am...That hurt. She wouldn't work, wouldn't clean (messiest person I've ever met), I didn't trust her, she lied all the time and admitted to doing it, so on and so on....So I left again. And this time, I said I would not come back unless certain conditions were met. She begged and begged and begged but I told her until she showed me it was different I was staying gone....My family refused to talk to me. They said since she has my child they would help her and I should have stayed and endured for my child. I felt awful and abandoned even though I'm the one that left and she was being so sweet luring me back....Offering me massages and keeping a clean house and cooking meals and not arguing....I came back again. My freinds said it was the dumbest thing I ever did but my family accepted me (somewhat) again and things seemed good. After 4 months of her being 100% great I felt like I was in love again. She was doing everything so great. Under heavy moral pressure from the family, I proposed to her. When I did it she did not react like I thought she would. She just didn't seem that excited....I feel like the very next day she started being rude again...and distant...now its been 2 weeks of hell again like it used to be.. I told her i feel like now that she got a ring she must think shes got it made and she can slack again....I want her to shape up but she just lies and tells me "I promise I will be better" then turns around and does the same things over and over again. This week she took the kids and herself all over doing different activities...I didn't even know about....She took the kids to her aunts and came home without them without telling me...I was excited to see them...When I confronted her about communicating her activities she told me she can do what the **** she wants and im not her dad.... Its been arguing about things like that everyday. I don't feel loved or wanted in this relationship but she just says I'm crazy....Now she wants me to move out of our $500/mo house to a 1200/mo house and wants me to pay for all of it....My family and her say since I'm a father I don't have needs anymore only my kids have needs. I feel like I have nothing and I'm sorry I proposed to her but at the same time I want to make it work. I am so resentful but at the same time hopeful....I hate her but I love her...I want to leave but I want to stay...If I leave my own family will shut me out and think I'm scum and I won't be able to see my child often, and I'll have to pay child support and know they will be raised wrong....That scares me enough to stay.....I don't know how to feel...Theres so much I've left out.....Its one day good one day bad over and over again and the roller coaster makes me feel dead inside but the idea of leaving doesn't make me feel any better.....


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## EleGirl

Well, I think you should postpone the wedding. 

This is one miserable relationship. Your child would be better off with two parents who lived apart than what's going on right now.

Why not see a lawyer and find out your rights as a father. You should be able to get 50% custody. 

Tell your family that they need to trust you because they have no clue what it's like living with this woman.

How old are the two of you?


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## statuscomforts

I am 28 and she is 26. I apologize for my poor grammar in the first posting, I am very stressed out and it is hard to organize my thoughts of 3 years of a relationship into one post....I just have never understood why she begs me to stay or come back only to slip back into treating me so bad and disrespectfully. Which then in turn causes me to do the same in retaliation and defense (in my mind). Its like, all the elements of a good relationship are here, things HAVE been good at points in time, why can they never stay that way?


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## uhaul4mybaggage

I'm sorry things are so messed up. 

I really recommend you don't marry her. At least not now. 
100% of divorces come directly from being married.

You can live with her your whole life, if you want. Be as in love as you like, let her know you don't plan to leave her (as long as she treats you well and you treat her well) or your child (ever.) But marriage is icky stuff. See that thing she did when you proposed? How she went back to being nasty? Just the IDEA of marriage gives people this false sense of security. And then it's back to bad behavior. If the partner is going to treat you badly, do you really want to be tied to them legally? nope nope nope.

Be a good dad, live in the house with them to the best of your ability. If she cuts you off sexually, take care of your own needs. Use protection. But don't buy a Titanic. It's only gonna sink.


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## EleGirl

Well I disagree with uhaul's take on marriage. If it's not going to work as a marriage, it's not going to work living together either. 

if you are of a mind to go through with the marriage, then postpone it and get into marriage/relationship counseling with her. I'm wondering if she's bi-polar. She sounds all over the place. That's pretty typical of bi-polar people. 

Find out what you are dealing with.

Do you have medical insurance? Does she? How would you two getting married effect the medical insurance. I'm asking because there is a real need for counseling and medical attention here to find out if she has something like BPD. So it might be best to not be married if she has coverage right now.


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## statuscomforts

We have medical coverage but I don't know if it would cover counseling? When I think of counseling also I feel like I would just unload everything I hate about her to the counselor and I'm not sure what that would accomplish. After an incident where she threatened to kill herself while she was pregnant, and the police were involved, (definitely not the only time police were involved), her OBGYN put her on a heavy dose of antidepressants. They helped with the mood swings but did nothing for the inconsideration, lying, and lack of followthrough. Just like every typical person prescribed "lifelong" medication, she quit taking it about a year ago without telling me. She lied about it for a while, until I counted pills....Then she said she was fine and she didn't need it, that it made her feel weird. I have long given up on the argument because I never win, and she becomes hateful and spiteful when its brought up. I read about borderline personality disorder once, brought up to her, and she said "oh yeah a doctor said I had that a long time ago." I asked her what she did when he said that and she said she didn't beleive him and it wasn't anything to worry about.


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## Roselyn

Don't marry this woman. She is a mental mess. Go to counseling & see a psychologist to set your mind straight. Assess your situation without the interference of your family. It is important that your mindset is clear.

You are in a very tough spot because you have children. However, I would advise for you to see an attorney to see what your legal rights are as a custodial father. I don't see how your relationship will improve given her character and behaviors.


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## Wolfman1968

I knew it was a mistake when I married my ex-wife (my first marriage), but went through with it due to pressures.

Don't let others pressure you into a marriage that you know is wrong. Take it from me. Those that are doing the talking are not the ones who have to live with the consequences. Talk is cheap. This is your life. 

You know it's a bad idea; that's why you're posting. Listen to yourself; you know you shouldn't go through with it.


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## EleGirl

statuscomforts said:


> We have medical coverage but I don't know if it would cover counseling? When I think of counseling also I feel like I would just unload everything I hate about her to the counselor and I'm not sure what that would accomplish. After an incident where she threatened to kill herself while she was pregnant, and the police were involved, (definitely not the only time police were involved), her OBGYN put her on a heavy dose of antidepressants. They helped with the mood swings but did nothing for the inconsideration, lying, and lack of followthrough. Just like every typical person prescribed "lifelong" medication, she quit taking it about a year ago without telling me. She lied about it for a while, until I counted pills....Then she said she was fine and she didn't need it, that it made her feel weird. I have long given up on the argument because I never win, and she becomes hateful and spiteful when its brought up. I read about borderline personality disorder once, brought up to her, and she said "oh yeah a doctor said I had that a long time ago." I asked her what she did when he said that and she said she didn't beleive him and it wasn't anything to worry about.


Does your family know about her mental health issues? 

This is just getting worse. Do not marry this woman. At least if you have 50% custody, your child will be with you 50% of the time and away from the insanity.

It's time for you to stand up for what you know is right.. protecting yourself and your child.


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## statuscomforts

I'm being as honest as I can about myself when I say this. I always have known I should leave, that's why I have so many times....But when I do and I see her and she cries and tells me she loves me and that I'm abandoning my family, it crushes me inside and I feel like the worst person on earth. Like maybe I've misunderstood something and its me. Every single one of my friends says they feel like theyve lost me and they hate her, and are open about hating her, and were very dissapointed I went back the last time, and downright flabbergasted when I proposed, but its just so hard. And the last time I moved into my freinds basement to get on my feet so I could still give her money for the kids and it just felt so cold and lonely. This is my biggest fault I feel in this relationship. I myself can be one nasty hateful person when I'm cornered by her and I'm defending myself or trying to get her to straighten out, but deep down I just wish things were easy and I feel like I've completely ruined my life if I leave and have a child...No woman will want to mess with a guy with baggage.....Ill never be finacially successful because of child support...my family will officially disown me...shell be at the thanksgiving table instead of me.....my child will end up just like her and hate me for leaving....Are these things true? I don't know, but thats what runs through my mind. I wish I could just not care. I've contemplated picking up drugs to numb the racing thoughts but my logical side knows thats insane....But I do still think about it. I think well if I were a drug addict I'd have an excuse, and I wouldn't care...I know that sounds crazy and maybe you won't understand...I won't do it but thats just where my head is at lately. I've told her this and she didn't even flinch.


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## statuscomforts

And to answer your question I have tried to explain her issues and the horrible things shes put me through and done to me and they told me they "didn't want to hear it" and "its about the kids and if its that bad thats more reason to stay for them" I appreciate everyone's responses, thank you now and ahead of time.


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## ToothFairy

Forget about her issues right now.. you need to take care of yours. You sound very co-dependent and easily manipulated. Get into some counseling so you can get to the bottom of why you allow yourself to be involved and manipulated by a woman like this. Focus on you and your kids. Get healthy, get strong, get to a place where you do no longer will settle for the crap you have been dealing with.


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## aine

The bottom line is that this relationship is not going to get better if you put a ring on her finger and have more kids, if anything it will get worse with the additional responsibility. You really saw all the warning signs but were not strong enough to stand up and say enough. if you want stability in your life you need to start planning an exit. Why is your family so into her? 
Are you telling us everything? Has she had any mad episodes since?
You can still be a good provider and father living apart.


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## happy as a clam

Your biggest problem here isn't her or her manipulation -- it's YOU.

You need counseling pronto to help you break this vicious codependency which is obviously rooted in issues with your family of origin. A good counselor can help you recognize your very unhealthy patterns in this relationship and help you set better boundaries.

Marrying her would be a terrible mistake. I think you should get your ring back (you may literally have to do it while she's sleeping--she seems like the type who will not hand it over willingly) and call off this wedding. Only after some serious counseling will you be able to make any decision about the future of your relationship with her. Personally I'd listen to your friends and get rid of her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SecondTime'Round

The biggest issue I see here is the judgment of your family. You seem to be living with a mentally ill woman. I thought borderling personality disorder while reading your first point and not your later post stating she had once been diagnosed with that.

What is your family structure? Mom and Dad both still living? Siblings? Is there any one family member in particular that you think might be more open and accepting/willing to hear you out?

If you decide to stay, I think you need to give her an ultimatum--get help for her mental issues or you're out.

Start keeping records of her outbursts, bad behavior, etc. Get a VAR and keep it in the house to record her outbursts. 

It's not true that no woman would ever want you with your baggage. Don't allow yourself to believe that.


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## statuscomforts

Aine - The severity of her episodes is not nearly to the strength that it has been in the past. The killing herself/hurting herself/beating on me is not really a present issue though I am still very resentful of it. Lying, attitude, filthy habits, inconsideration, and complete lack of followthrough are the current issues. Shes a walking tornado. My family is into her because I am the black sheep of my family. I find it very hard to get on the same page with them with any topic, thats how its always been. She on the other hand will go over there and basically be their puppy dog and go along with anything they say. Theyve accepted her in that way. They have never once seen her act the way she does in private to me and they probably wouldn't care if she did as I am generally outcasted by them.

Secondtimearound - My parents are still married and I have 2 married brothers. I am the youngest. My brothers and I do not speak except at family functions a couple times a year. No one is willing to hear me out and I'm not particularly interested in hearing them out. I just don't want to COMPLETELY lose them because of this girl.


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## gouge_away

Absolutely do not marry her, its not uncommon for couples to be engaged indefinitely.

I suggest:
• You sit right where you are.
• Really think things through.
• Go through a premarital counseling program with your fiancé.
• Speak with an attorney about your rights as far as being father to this child. As well as premarital asset and debt agreements.
• Birth control from now on.
• Individual counseling for yourself - find out why you lack the word "NO" in your vocabulary.
• Start using the word "NO," a lot, practice. Seriously, if she asks you to do anything, even if its to rub her feet, and you don't want to, just say "No."

Don't worry about unloading on a councilor, let them do their job, the allow you to unload, they get paid to sort information. You and your woman need Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Your fiancé might need Dialectical Reasoning, a good therapist will give you the resources to make sober choices, but first you need to unload or unpack this. I think you have compartmentalized so much that you can't even explain your own reasons for why it has gotten to this point.

Do not take any more forward steps, let's sort out the past, and see what you have control of from here on out.

Councilor, yes, to clear your mind.
Read: Boundaries by Henry Cloud, take your time through this book. I notice a lack of boundaries for yourself, your family, obviously your wife, and I can't imagine what raising a young girl will be like if you keep this up, read the book.

And by the way, you said in your initial post, what is the worst that could happen. I want you to still understand, you can walk away from this woman at any time. Focus on accepting and cherishing your daughter, build that relationship up, I promise it will not disappoint you. Loving that child, with or without her mother will never be a mistake. You still can have that family you dreamt of, with or without her mother as well.


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## 6301

I got about half way through your post and in my mind I kept seeing these two words flashing. YOUR FAULT.

Look in the mirror. See that guy looking back at you. Kick him in the ass and tell him to wise up.

You got a preview of this woman the night you couldn't get her in the taxi cab and you caved in to her and have been ever since and now you wonder why she's like she is.

To make matters worse you had her move in with you and the real kicker you had a kid with her. You must love being tortured. You went form the frying pan to the fire and then your about to make it even worse by getting engaged to her.

My advice to you is stop being the push over. Tell your family when they say she's more family then you to take her and leave you alone. 

For God sake man look at it for what it is. A mess and it wont get better no matter what you do. Tell her to keep the ring, pay your child support and move on quickly before you digg that hole your in deeper.


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## statuscomforts

I have always felt so dumb for looking past all the red flags. Its a pattern for me. My previous relationship was even worse if you can imagine that and it took me 2 years to finally get the nerve to get out of it. But its this weakness I have for beleiving in people. A little bit of everything everyone is saying has some truth, but then she calls me this morning and tells me she loves me and misses me today, and that I have nothing to worry about she will start making an effort. I have heard this 1000 times from her and she never follows through for any long period of time yet everytime I belive her. Even though I know that I will more than likely get into yet another vicious argument tonight despite her promises. I may have made myself look like a pushover maybe...I fight back...tooth and nail...I'll go for 12 hours straight of arguing if i have to...But it never seems to accomplish anything. Some people have told me that I should just ignore her but when I try she just thinks she CAN walk on me, and if I lay down the line and give ultimatums she won't do them....So what is the proper course of action to have to once and for all give her a final chance? Am I being too demanding if I tell her I'm leaving unless she does x y and z? Should I just call it quits and not give her her 1001th chance? What are your opinions on what I should do?

Also, please explain compartmentalization to me. I'm not familiar with the concept so I don't know how I feel about that.


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## happy as a clam

statuscomforts said:


> I know that I will more than likely get into yet another vicious argument tonight despite her promises... I may have made myself look like a pushover maybe...I fight back...tooth and nail...*I'll go for 12 hours straight of arguing if i have to...*But it never seems to accomplish anything.


WTH??? 12 hours of ARGUING??? Of course it doesn't accomplish anything!

This is not a relationship; more like a living h*ll. If you are determined to stay with this person, that's your prerogative. But it's incredibly unhealthy and sounds like a toxic environment in which to raise your child.


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## statuscomforts

Admittedly the kids do hear us often saying terrible hurtful things to each other....I used to keep it away from them but she wouldn't and that was an argument within itself. I gave up on that somewhere along the line about 1 1/2 years ago and figured if she won't conduct herself accordingly in front of the kids I have no choice but to join the club....Yeah....I guess typing this all out I see the pattern of me giving in....But WHAT IS THE RECOURSE FOR A GROWN ADULT when they won't budge? You can't put an adult in time out, you can't take away their car....All you can do is argue and hope they'll see your way, right? Or leave?


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## Elizabeth001

You had better back out of this before you're completely socked in like me.


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## statuscomforts

See but I feel trapped as well...Is your house any different than my risk of losing my family and not seeing my kid without a court order? Is it all a state of mind like you are telling me or are we genuinely trapped? Thats a sticky subject I feel..


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## Elizabeth001

I'm not sure what state you're in but in VA, without a court order means automatic joint custody so either you or she could skip town with your child and there wouldn't be anything you could do about it until you do go to court. At that point it could be drug out for a very long time, especially if it goes over state lines. That's with or with no marriage. I would check your local laws if I were you and cover your butt. My ex-husband took my son when he was a toddler and it was a nightmare for me until I got him back. 

My kids are grown now but they in no way compare to a material possession. I do enjoy having a nice home that I've worked hard for when my grandchildren come to visit though.


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## statuscomforts

Yes thats what I'm afraid of. I think that they do compare pertaining to the subject. The joint responsibilities that we have and you have that bind you together and make it very difficult to leave. Its this constant back and forth tug of decision making...For me anyways. PLUS, you know if you stay its miserable but you know exactly WHAT misery is in store....While leaving is like jumping into a dark abyss where anything can happen.


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## Elizabeth001

Yes...the unknown is very scary. In my situation if I could figure the financial side of it without having absolutely nothing, I would leave though. It's obvious to me that things aren't going to change and time keeps marching on while dragging me down. Good luck to you and thanks for your posts today. Sometimes it helps to get it all out.


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## Uptown

statuscomforts said:


> I read about borderline personality disorder once, brought up to her, and she said "oh yeah a doctor said I had that a long time ago." I asked her what she did when he said that and she said she didn't beleive him and it wasn't anything to worry about.


Status, I agree with EleGirl that you seem to be describing many warning signs for BPD. If your GF's doctor was correct in diagnosing her as having BPD, it is not surprising she never believed him. Because BPD is a thought distortion that a person has been carrying since early childhood, it usually is invisible to the vast majority of BPDers. They lack sufficient self awareness to see their behavior is creating most of their own problems with loved ones.



> When I think of counseling also I feel like I would just unload everything I hate about her to the counselor and I'm not sure what that would accomplish.


For 15 years, I spent a small fortune taking my BPDer exW to six different psychologists/psychiatrists and 3 MCs -- all to no avail. Didn't even make a dent in her issues. Hence, my experience is that marriage counseling (MC) is a total waste of time and money with BPDers because they will only use the meetings as a stage on which to berate you and tell lies. IC can greatly help a BPDer if she has the self awareness to recognize she has issues and sufficient ego strength to work hard in therapy for many years. That is a rare, however. My guess is that less than 1% of BPDers are sufficiently self aware and strong to benefit from long-term IC.



> Her OBGYN put her on a heavy dose of antidepressants. They helped with the mood swings but did nothing for the inconsideration, lying, and lack of followthrough. Just like every typical person prescribed "lifelong" medication, she quit taking it about a year ago without telling me.


Because BPD is a thought distortion established in early childhood, medication cannot make even a dent in it. Meds therefore are not prescribed for the BPD itself. Yet, because the BPD typically is accompanied by other co-occurring disorders such as depression and anxiety, it is common for doctors to prescribe meds targeted to those other disorders. I mention this because there is no short-term or "lifelong" medication for treating BPD. The meds that your GF stopped taking likely were targeted at her severe depression which had resulted in her suicidal behavioir. Putting her back on medication, then, will NOT eliminate her BPD issue.



> WHAT IS THE RECOURSE FOR A GROWN ADULT when they won't budge? You can't put an adult in time out, you can't take away their car....*All you can do is argue* and hope they'll see your way, right?


Wrong. Arguing with a BPDer is as useless as arguing with a young child, because a BPDer has the emotional development of a four year old. Furthermore, you will nearly always find that trying to calmly reason with a BPDer is futile. Because a BPDer is filled with enormous anger and distrust carried from early childhood, she is always just ten seconds away from exploding into a rage or temper tantrum. 

All that is needed to trigger that release of anger is a gentle attempt from you to discuss any sensitive family matter -- and ALL family or R/S matters are sensitive. This means that, when you try to be calm and rational with her, you usually are just ten seconds from a temper tantrum. Not many issues can be resolved in ten seconds.

Hence, with BPDers -- as with young children -- reasoning will not accomplish much, if anything at all. Instead, you must establish strong personal boundaries (on behaviors you are not willing to accept) and then enforce them when they are violated. That is, the BPDer must be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad choices and bad behavior. 

For example, one logical consequence is for you to immediately move to your own home. I suggest, however, that you consult with an attorney about how to retain custody of your daughter. Leaving your daughter behind might appear to a judge like you had abandoned her. On the other hand, the lawyer may tell you that it's okay -- or that you should obtain a court order on custody before moving. Below, I provide links to two resources on how to establish strong personal boundaries.



> I'll go for 12 hours straight of arguing if i have to...But it never seems to accomplish anything.


Like I said, it is pointless to argue with young children or adults having the emotional development of a four year old. Instead, establish strong, clear personal boundaries and let them suffer the logical consequences (e.g., your moving out) when they violate those boundaries.



> I hate her but I love her...I want to leave but I want to stay.


You suffer from those strong mixed feelings because you are sufficiently healthy to be able to tolerate them and deal with them. In contrast, a BPDer is so emotionally immature that she cannot tolerate strong conflicting feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, or other grey areas of interpersonal relationships. For this reason, her subconscious mind will "split off" all of the conflicting feelings, putting them far out of reach of her conscious mind. 

The result is that the BPDer will flip back and forth between perceiving of you as "all good" (i.e., white) or "all bad" (i.e., black). As you already know too well by now, such flips can occur in ten seconds. This, of course, is the same black-white thinking you will see in all four year olds, who are adoring Daddy when he brings out the toys and hating Daddy when he takes one away. With BPDers, then, they are too immature to handle the grey areas in between.



> Its one day good one day bad over and over again.


Yes, that's the way it is with BPDers. When they are splitting you white, they can be absolutely wonderful to be around because they are caring and loving (albeit, in an immature form of love). And, when they are splitting you black, they perceive you to be Hitler incarnate and will treat you as such. 

Due to this roller coaster ride, you will get the impression that the medicine is working or that the BPDer has greatly improved. Indeed, BPDers will regularly be seen to "greatly improve" in the same way smokers are frequently seen to be "quitting" once again. Yet, instead of seeing lasting improvement, what you likely are seeing is just another upswing in the unending roller coaster ride. It will soon be followed by the downswing.



> The severity of her episodes is not nearly to the strength that it has been in the past. The killing herself/hurting herself/beating on me is not really a present issue though I am still very resentful of it.


Like I said, if she has strong BPD traits, any improvements you see for a few weeks or months almost certainly will not last. Because a BPDer is emotionally unstable, her perception of your intentions will vary greatly over time. Moreover, her reality is whatever strong feelings she is experiencing at this moment in time. To a BPDer, those feelings are self-evident "facts."

As to her _"beating on me,"_ as you say, the _physical_ abuse of a spouse or partner has been found to be strongly associated with BPD. One of the first studies showing that link is a 1993 hospital study of spousal batterers. It found that nearly all of them have a personality disorder and half of them have BPD. See Roger Melton's summary of that study at *50% of Batterers are BPDers*. 



> The roller coaster makes me feel dead inside....I've contemplated picking up drugs to numb the racing thoughts but my logical side knows thats insane....I know that sounds crazy


Status, if you've been living with a BPDer for nearly 3 years, "dead inside," "insane," and "crazy" are the VERY FEELINGS you should be experiencing. Living with a BPDer is extremely confusing and disorienting because the same person who loves you is regularly devaluing you and telling you how awful you are. You mistakenly believe that, if you can only figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore her to that wonderful creature you saw at the very beginning. 

The result is that the abused partners of BPDers quickly start to lose sight of who they really are. This is why that, of the 157 disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they are losing their minds. And this is one reason that therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they really are going crazy -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.



> If I leave my own family will shut me out and think I'm scum.


I suggest you give them a copy of one of the two best-selling BPD books: One is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ -- and the other is _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!_ Or, if your family is web savy, you could send them a link to BPDfamily.com which provides over a dozen excellent free articles on the subject. If just one of your family members reads any of that, that person may establish important inroads for you in changing your family's attitude. But, make no mistake, their lack of understanding is THEIR problem to deal with -- not yours. You have plenty to deal with on your own and they should be supporting you. Most likely, you'll just have to be patient and wait for them to catch up with you. Most people are clueless when it comes to BPDers because the vast majority of BPDers reveal their dark side only to their abused partners and children.



> I feel trapped as well... my risk of losing my family and not seeing my kid without a court order?


Status, that's just a feeling. Don't believe it. You are not trapped. Stop feeling like a victim and, instead, start taking action to protect yourself and your child. In addition to obtaining the court order, there are several things you can do to protect both of you:

*As an initial matter,* if you agree with her doctor that your GF has strong BPD traits, I recommend that you NOT try to persuade her of that. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her.

*Second,* for tips on how to establish and enforce strong personal boundaries, I recommend the book _Codependent No More_ and an online psychiatric nurse's blog, which provides 20 tips to nurses on how they can best deal with obstinate BPDer patients. It is located at Borderline Personality Disorder on the Behavioral Unit - Psychiatric Nursing. If you think you have it bad, remember that those psychiatric nurses have to deal with BPDers for hours every work day.

*Third,* I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily -- the most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. It offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the *"Leaving"* board and the *"Parenting after the Split"* board.

*Fourth,* while you are at BPDfamily, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My favorites are article #9 "Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering from BPD" and article #10 "Leaving a Partner with BPD."

*Fifth,* I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with -- and how likely it is she may pass her disorder on to your daughter. 

*Finally*, I suggest you read more about BPD red flags so you are able to avoid running right into the arms of another woman just like the one you (hopefully) are leaving. An easy place to start reading is my list of _*18 Warning Signs*_. If most of them sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings any bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping many other members and lurkers. Take care, Status.


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## statuscomforts

Holy cow. That was an amazing reply. Thank you.


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## CantePe

Another good resource is out of the fog forum


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## gouge_away

How bout instead of arguing for the rest of your life, you back out, get some space, and tell this chick she has to prove herself before you even consider moving back in with her.


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## statuscomforts

Done that, about 6 times. Her family and I used to get along but now we don't like each other. They think I am a bad person for leaving so often. Maybe I am because I should have stayed gone. This forum is awesome...just fyi.


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## Uptown

statuscomforts said:


> Done that, about 6 times.


BPDer relationships are notorious for having multiple breakups. A BPDfamily survey of about 460 such relationships found that nearly a fourth of them (23%) went through 10 or more complete breakup/makeup cycles BEFORE finally ending for good. About 40% of the BPDer relationships -- like yours, Status -- experienced at least six breakup/makeup cycles before ending. And 73% had three or more breakup/makeup cycles before finally ending. See "Results" at BPDfamily Breakup/Makeup Poll.


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## 6301

statuscomforts said:


> See but I feel trapped as well...Is your house any different than my risk of losing my family and not seeing my kid without a court order? Is it all a state of mind like you are telling me or are we genuinely trapped? Thats a sticky subject I feel..


 I had to get a court order to see my oldest daughter and guess what friend. I survived and so did my daughter. 

Stop arguing with her. She isn't going to change and she knows full well that when she says she will, you cave in and believe her while she makes a jack ass out of you.

It's time you stop making excuses for her and stop looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It ain't there and never will be. 

Time to wise up because honestly neither one of you are setting any kind of example for you kid and hers.


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## statuscomforts

Yeah, so, I tried to have the most calm rational conversation I could tonight because I'm at wits end. It ended horribly. She quickly blew up, frantic outbursts, crying if I said something that was true she didn't want to own, she ran back to the bedroom and hid under a pillow....i gave her a minute and tried to continue calmly. I could go into detail but I got absolutely nowhere. FUNNY uptown you said they try to say you have it?...I tried to bring up seeing a doctor and said I would too and mentioned the disorder and some qualifying traits....She said I'm the one who has it just like you predicted. In her mind she is perfect and justified in her behavior and it is because she is "tired." Then she pretended to fall asleep. I told her I know shes just trying to get out of the conversation and its a crock of ****, grabbed my alarm clock and contact case, and up she pops wide eyed, where are you going!? I said I thought you were asleep, I'm sleeping on the couch. So, I guess I'm sleeping on the couch. (i hate sleeping on the couch) I tried to bring up breaking the engagement but she started balling. I'm tired from work and just couldn't take that final step tonight mentally.


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## gouge_away

Less talking more consequences. If she's going to act that way... TALK WITH YOUR FEET!

The worst feeling in the world is constantly fighting for your right to have feelings.

See the trap in that statement.

People with BPD are driven by their fear of abandonment, they will manipulate, they will make a life of manipulating you to avoid facing that fear.

You need to take start stepping away, force her to face that fear so she realizes she does not control you anymore.

My tip: forget the outcome, with all your anxiety in the past, look where it got you, forget how this might end up, forget how others might react. If you know anything by now, you are not in control of yourself, and nobody is in control of her (not even herself) this is abandonment already.

Take control, make her face her fear, the same fear that caused her to jump out of a moving car and walk barefoot back to your house, she fears you giving up.

You know what I tell my son when he is scared at night that a monster is lurking under his bed, "turn on your light and look for yourself, if you see a monster, then come get me, daddy has a 12 gauge for this sort-a-thing."

Get your own apt, tell her, "you deal with this, and if you can't, I've got my own place."

Fyi: I'd be careful letting her know where this place is.


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## SecondTime'Round

statuscomforts said:


> Yeah, so, I tried to have the most calm rational conversation I could tonight because I'm at wits end. It ended horribly. She quickly blew up, frantic outbursts, crying if I said something that was true she didn't want to own, she ran back to the bedroom and hid under a pillow....i gave her a minute and tried to continue calmly. I could go into detail but I got absolutely nowhere. FUNNY uptown you said they try to say you have it?...I tried to bring up seeing a doctor and said I would too and *mentioned the disorder and some qualifying traits....She said I'm the one who has it just like you predicted.* In her mind she is perfect and justified in her behavior and it is because she is "tired." Then she pretended to fall asleep. I told her I know shes just trying to get out of the conversation and its a crock of ****, grabbed my alarm clock and contact case, and up she pops wide eyed, where are you going!? I said I thought you were asleep, I'm sleeping on the couch. So, I guess I'm sleeping on the couch. (i hate sleeping on the couch) I tried to bring up breaking the engagement but she started balling. I'm tired from work and just couldn't take that final step tonight mentally.


When I recently suggested to my STBX that my therapist suggested he may be bi-polar, based on my descriptions, he said "no, my therapist said YOU are bi-polar." 

Regardless of who has what diagnosis, you two are TOXIC together. But, she's the one who seems to be fine with it and actually enjoy it, so my money's on her being BPD, not you! 

This environment is terrible for the kids.  

I'd really get a VAR and put it in your apartment/house, so you have something to have your parents listen to. Of course you have to behave yourself so they don't blame you.


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## Uptown

statuscomforts said:


> Yeah, so, I tried to have the most calm rational conversation.... She quickly blew up....i gave her a minute and tried to continue calmly.


Gave her a _minute_? Silly man! Like I said, you have _ten seconds _or less. Because a BPDer has been carrying tremendous anger inside since childhood, you don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to say some trivial thing that TRIGGERS a release of anger that's always there, right under her skin. This is why it is impossible to have "the most calm rational conversation" about any serious issue with a BPDer -- even when you catch her in a calm or happy mood.



> FUNNY uptown you said they try to say you have it?...I tried to bring up seeing a doctor and said I would too and mentioned the disorder and some qualifying traits....She said I'm the one who has it just like you predicted.


Yes, and she will genuinely believe the outrageous allegations coming out of her mouth. Because a BPDer is filled with so much self loathing and shame, the last thing she wants to find is one more thing to add to the long list of things she hates about herself. Her subconscious therefore works 24/7 to protect her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. It accomplishes this by projecting all hurtful feelings and bad thoughts onto YOU. In this way, your most important role in the relationship is to be a wastebasket in which she can deposit painful thoughts.

Significantly, this projection works entirely at the subconscious level. This means that, at a conscious level, a BPDer really is convinced that the hurtful thoughts and feelings are coming from you. Hence, unlike lying, projection is a wonderful ego defense mechanism because it is entirely guilt free. A BPDer won't feel guilty over saying something she believes herself. Because she has the emotional development of a four year old, a BPDer is fully reliant on the primitive ego defenses that we all rely on during childhood (and when we get very angry in adulthood). These include, e.g., projection, lying, magical thinking, black-white thinking, and temper tantrums.



> In her mind she is perfect.


No. That would be true only if she has strong narcissistic traits. Narcissists believe, at a conscious level, that they are perfect. In contrast, a BPDer's self image -- to the extent she has one at all -- is that of being "The Victim," always "The Victim."

This means she will tolerate your presence only as long as you play one of two roles. One is being "The Rescuer," a role you played full-time during the infatuation period. That was possible only because her infatuation over you convinced her that you posed no threat to her two great fears (abandonment and engulfment). 

Of course, as long as you were "The Rescuer," you validated her false self image because she must be "The Victim" if you're working so hard to save her. Typically, this infatuation period lasts 4 to 6 months so you did middling to average when getting your 5 months of pure bliss out of this relationship.

After the infatuation evaporates, her fears return and you will start triggering them regularly. Hence, your role of being The Rescuer will sporadically occur only on those increasingly rare days she is splitting you white again. Most of the time, however, she will be splitting you black. This means that the only role she will tolerate you playing is that of "The Perpetrator," i.e., the cause of her every misfortune. Or, as I said above, you might want to label this role instead as "The Wastebasket." While playing this role, you continue to "validate" her false self image of being The Victim. 



> Just couldn't take that final step tonight mentally.


Rome wasn't built in a day. You will take that step when you are ready. Meanwhile, you have opportunities to prepare for what is going to be a very ugly battle over child custody. Hence, seeing a custody lawyer ASAP is important. And SecondTime gave you an excellent suggestion about carrying a VAR in your pocket to collect verbal evidence of her tantrums around the children that may be able to be used in court in your state. 

In any event, it will protect you if your GF tries to get you arrested for assaulting her (as my exW did to me, putting me in jail for 3 days). Moreover, as SecondTime suggests, this recorded evidence may help persuade your family members that you are living in an environment that poses a danger to both you and your daughter because your continued presence in the home is frequently triggering your GF's fears.

To be clear, if your GF is an untreated BPDer, you are living with a woman who has the emotional development of a four year old and the body strength, cunning, and intelligence of a full grown adult. This means you are in danger and should get out of her home ASAP. If you decide to delay, do so only to collect evidence (e.g., with the VAR) and to obtain legal advice on what action best supports your case for child custody.


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## statuscomforts

She did not apologize to me today until coaxed and gave a weak unsincere one at that. I told her that her behavior was unacceptable and that I was going to look at an apartment after work. That I wouldn't neccessarily jump to a decision and sign up for it, but that I would seriously consider it and that if 2 weeks or 2 days from now she wanted to continue her behavior i would know exactly where to go. If she loved me I would expect her to take that very seriously. Instead she blew up again saying its BS and that I just proposed to her and proposing to someone means you work through issues no matter what. I tried to explain that being engaged does not mean you can treat someone however you feel on a whim and that I did not propose under those conditions. She continued to be irate until I told her if this is how you feel I guess I am right in looking for an apartment. After we got off the phone she sent a text claiming "you break my heart," to which I replied "that's not going to work, you are responsible for your own actions." I refuse to let her make it seem like I am abandoning her for no reason, and she just can't get that I keep giving her outs and chances shes not taking advantage of. I can't get any signs of good faith...


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## Lostinthought61

you have to keeping asking yourself is this what i want for the rest of my life? i am deeply concern with the way she interprets the mean of proposal....can you imagine how she interprets a marriage? I do not see anything good coming out of this...you are seeing the real her...time to throw her back


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## Satya

She will absolutely exhaust you, physically and mentally if you stay with her. The saddest part of all is, no matter how well intentioned you are, you cannot help her. Only she can help herself, but first she has to acknowledge her issues and that is extremely rare for a BPDer. 

If you're going to act, best to do it unannounced. The more you talk about what you do, the more ammo you give her to shoot you with. 

Lots of us have dealt with forms of emotional blackmail and manipulation but if BPD is involved, you are dealing with a veritable master on the level of Houdini. Not many of us are nearly equipped for that.


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## 6301

What the hell are you looking for an apartment for? If anything, hand her the paper with the apartments for rent section and tell her to start looking then show her your watch and inform her she's on the clock. You don't know when to stop shooting yourself in the foot.


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## statuscomforts

That's what it's looking like. I hope these forums are as helpful AFTER I've left if I go through with it. Last time I was so lonely but I realize now that was my codependence and I need to control it to not be manipulated.

6103 - You have no idea what this woman is like. You could call her every nasty name in the book, tell her shes worthless to you, treat her like crap and tell her to GTFO....She won't budge. Shes always been like that. A squatter. Plus she won't leave without the children and thats something I have to worry about. Best to leave and let her lose the house when she can't pay the rent and HAS to find something else. Wouldn't look nice in court to throw her and the kids out of a 3 bedroom house so I can have it to myself. Right?


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## SecondTime'Round

statuscomforts said:


> That's what it's looking like. I hope these forums are as helpful AFTER I've left if I go through with it. Last time I was so lonely but I realize now that was my codependence and I need to control it to not be manipulated.
> 
> 6103 - You have no idea what this woman is like. You could call her every nasty name in the book, tell her shes worthless to you, treat her like crap and tell her to GTFO....She won't budge. Shes always been like that. A squatter. Plus she won't leave without the children and thats something I have to worry about. Best to leave and let her lose the house when she can't pay the rent and HAS to find something else. Wouldn't look nice in court to throw her and the kids out of a 3 bedroom house so I can have it to myself. Right?


I assume you're on the lease? Is she going to agree to assume the lease alone?

What are you going to do to ensure YOU get custody of the kids? (At least your bio kid???)


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## statuscomforts

We are both on the lease but it is month to month 30 day notice. So thats easy. The kids are an issue I can't even process right now until things are more set in stone, I assume I would try and get them as much as possible and take things to court if she doesn't allow me to see them?


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## statuscomforts

Indiana is a super mother friendly state, from everything I've heard from people that have been through the system - Unless mom is cracked out or homeless mom gets custody.


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## tonedef

This woman was psychotic from the start and you ignored every red flag because like me, you are probably a softy that tries to see the good in people and look past things. So here you are. From what you have described, you will die a very slow mental death. This will age you. I wouldnt care what my family thought to be honest. This is your life to live. Having said that, it is time you get your ducks in a row. Your priority is your daughter. I would speak with a lawyer to find out your rights and ways to help your case. If leaving is what you decide to do, you can still be a very active father. You are concerned with child support- still cheaper than the financially and emotionally draining person you are with. If you marry her and divorce, you are looking at paying alimony too. If I were you, I would break free but I know easier said than done. Good luck. I feel bad for you and your daughter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## statuscomforts

So just to be 100% clear in everyone's unbiased opinion I should leave EVEN if she promises me the world on a platter? Like....too much damage has been done and Regardless of anything this should be done?


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## gouge_away

My sister told me, while I was considering *breaking free* "some day when you are with a woman that you want to be with, and you know for certain she wants nobody else but you, I reserve the right to remind you of this point in your life and say 'I told you so."

Please do not marry this woman. She isn't a good catch, you know you should have thrown her back the day you found her, go be happy, you deserve to be happy, and go while your daughter is too young to process this.


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## tonedef

How can she promise you anything when she doesnt realize she has a problem? She makes promises because it lures you back in. Works every time. If only her next promise is a good psychologist, other than that I would not chance it. As a matter of fact, I would remain separated until she has had quite a few sessions made and shows progress. Even then, you risk her slipping into old habits and your personality enables it. So ask yourself, do the ends justify the means?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded

She might promise you the world to stay but it's just manipulation. Nothing will permanently change. And she's not going to stop trying so even when you move out she will keep it up. She's sure she will get you back because she remembers in the beginning when you weren't very interested in her but eventually she hooked you and you proposed. So she is positive she can reel you back in. Don't let that happen. You've made enough mistakes with her -- don't add another one.


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## statuscomforts

tonedef said:


> How can she promise you anything when she doesnt realize she has a problem?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why didn't I think of that? DUH When she keeps sending me texts "things will be better I promise." how can they if you can't even admit any wrongdoing? Makes sense...Aha moment on that one.


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## SecondTime'Round

statuscomforts said:


> *So just to be 100% clear in everyone's unbiased opinion I should leave EVEN if she promises me the world on a platter? Like....too much damage has been done and Regardless of anything this should be done?*


It's not about too much damage being done, it's about her previously making promises, time and time again, that she's proven she's incapable of keeping. She's mentally ill and not being treated. She CAN'T keep these promises and you and the kids are suffering the consequences.

In my opinion, these should be your next steps:

1. VAR
2. Consultation with an attorney
3. Read whatever that book is that folks here recommend about becoming more Alpha.


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## gouge_away

Ehh, mmslp, was a waste of my time, it turns beta into alpha douches... the last thing he needs is a macho facade, and more *deliberate triggers.*

I definitely recommend *Boundaries* _by Henry Cloud_... once again…

http://outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/Hoovering.html


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## statuscomforts

Shes being all nice and sweet now and did everything she was supposed to do today. I had my mind set and I feel myself being hoovered. How do I stop myself from being hoovered!!!! I have an offer to move on a place for a great deal and I just can't bring myself to do it. WHY!?


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## statuscomforts

Uptown, secondtimearound, guageaway, I need you! And anyone else! Lol seriously though I'm freaking out trying to fight it but I came home today and the house was clean and shes being nice even though I am telling her she has to prove herself and she followed through on her word. Its just one or two days and I feel the suction. All my freinds say they are convinced I'll never leave. Why can't I force myself to just go am I a glutton for punishment or what? Its like my logical brain is screaming just DO IT and my emotional brain is saying , "shes trying, give her another chance."


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## gouge_away

Moving out is the condition of another chance. If you want any control, act now on it.


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## gouge_away

You deserve a step back, that is all this is, one step back. Give yourself and her some space to take a personal inventory. You can always see her whenever you want.

Fear and doubt is just a shadow, you can walk through it.

In my faith we have a saying: "post tenebras lux."


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## SparkyWolf

Think about the kids. If all y'all do is this up and down drama and fighting it Is no place for a child. Yes your family will get mad but they will get over it. Move on and try to remain friends for the kids. DO NOT GET MARRIED TO THIS ONE. Don't let people pressure u into something u know is wrong for u


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## SparkyWolf

Either u love somebody or u don't there is no in bee tween


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## Uptown

statuscomforts said:


> Uptown, secondtimearound, guageaway, I need you! ...Why can't I force myself to just go am I a glutton for punishment or what?


Status, I will be glad to give you more help after you have had time to read my list of _*18 Warning Signs*_ and the more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. Some of the questions you are now raising are already answered, to the best of my ability, in those posts. They discuss, for example, the addictive nature of BPDer relationships and why it is so difficult for us excessive caregivers to walk away. 

If you have time, what I would find very helpful -- for purposes of clarifying and framing this discussion -- would be for you to tell us which of those 18 signs apply strongly to your GF's behavior and which apply very weakly or not at all.


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## Satya

Being good NOW doesn't really mean much, when tomorrow it could all go south. 

First she needs to admit she needs help. 
Then, she has to actively seek help. 
Then, she has to demonstrate for a LENGTH OF TIME that she is working on herself, keeping consistent with therapy and/or any other treatments that are suitable. 

BTW, those 3 things above are the basics (mileage may vary) and do not require you holding her hand or even being with her while she goes through them. In fact, I strongly advise you let her stumble and fall/claw her way through it alone, if she even gets to the point of wanting to help herself. 

In other words, stop feeling sorry for what could bite you in the arse tomorrow.


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## SecondTime'Round

I'm going to repeat to you, word for word, what my sister told me about my STBX after I told her our reconciliation was kaput. 

"Anyone can ACT like they've changed for a certain period of time. but most people, especially ones like ______, don't fundamentally change who they are." 

That was a literal copy and paste from an online chat between my sister and me. And it totally applies to you.

Do not be FOOLED!!!!


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## Jellybeans

Toxic relationship.

I don't understand why you went out with her after the second date that ended up in screaming/cursing/her refusing to leave your house; or why you decided to have a child with her; or why you decided to propose to her. Or why you have stayed with her for three years.

Don't get married. Unless you want more of this. Also, it seems you blame her for a lot and don't really take any responsibility for the part you have played in this dynamic. You chose to be with her/stay with her/have a child with her/ask her for marriage the even blamed your family for the reason you proposed. Not a lot of accountability.


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## Satya

Yes to the above! OP remember what I said earlier. 

Houdini. A master. You are up against this.

You are terribly under powered to have ANY control here.


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## gouge_away

This breaks the cycle...
Their will be changes in her behavior...
Do study what your dealing with, some changes will be for the worst, and some for the better.
For you though, things can only get better.

You are forcing her to face her greatest fear of abandonment, this same fear that jumped out of a moving cab and walked miles barefoot to the man she met hours earlier.... You now have a child with that same woman...

She needs to face this fear alone. You don't have to abandon her, but you should leave the house.


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## statuscomforts

Uptown, I had read that, maybe I just missed something. She fits 1-14, 17, 18. I, at times admittedly, 2-5, 8, 9. Three especially becuase her mom is deranged and sees 2 therapists which doesn't help at all. Also lives with a man who beats her and they will take my child over there into an unsafe environment without asking. So definitely 3.

I am trying to take responsibility in the matter. You are right, I should not submit to pressure from family, I think I do have a problem with codependecy, and with compartmentalization. I think I struggle with these things so bad actually that all my rational thinking tells me everyone is right and that I should leave but there is still this immense fear even though I keep trying to fight it. The biggest is probably dealing with the INITIAL blowup drag out fight with her when I tell her I'm leaving, then the followup phone calls from family harrassing me about why I left. It makes me sweat thinking about it. Are there any good tips to keep my mind focused on the prize?


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## gouge_away

statuscomforts said:


> Are there any good tips to keep my mind focused on the prize?


Reading books on relationships, and self improvement, working out, TAM, take a college course, do some of the things you missed out on because of her, do things you had to give up for her, counseling, volunteer your time.

I highly suggest that you hang out with your male friends more, and meet some new ones.


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## statuscomforts

I just read Symptoms of Codependency | Psych Central - Part 11992 - The only thing that doesn't fit me is the people pleasing. Everything else is dead on.

What is TAM?


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## SecondTime'Round

statuscomforts said:


> I just read Symptoms of Codependency | Psych Central - Part 11992 - The only thing that doesn't fit me is the people pleasing. Everything else is dead on.
> 
> What is TAM?


You're on TAM. It is this website .


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## statuscomforts

Oh, haha. TAM talk about marriage. Gotcha. I appreciate everyone's help here.


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## Jellybeans

statuscomforts said:


> What is TAM?


It's where all the crazy people hang out.


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## statuscomforts

I just had a small conversation about how we both have fault in this matter and that we're like kids that keep touching the hot stove even though we know itll burn with our behavior. She said, "im not going anywhere" to which I replied someone can show up to class every single day and still not learn anything though. this was through text and she said shes at work talking to a freind about who will be in our wedding and that shes crying now. Makes me feel really bad...As i'm typing this she just said that she threw up because she is so upset....


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## SecondTime'Round

statuscomforts said:


> I just had a small conversation about how we both have fault in this matter and that we're like kids that keep touching the hot stove even though we know itll burn with our behavior. She said, "im not going anywhere" to which I replied someone can show up to class every single day and still not learn anything though. this was through text and she said shes at work talking to a freind about who will be in our wedding and that shes crying now. Makes me feel really bad...As i'm typing this she just said that she threw up because she is so upset....


Let me google that for you


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## statuscomforts

SecondTime'Round said:


> Let me google that for you


Hahahahaha the situation isn't funny but that gave me a good laugh. Thanks for that!


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## SecondTime'Round

statuscomforts said:


> Hahahahaha the situation isn't funny but that gave me a good laugh. Thanks for that!


You are welcome . I don't mean to make light of your situation, but I thought you'd find that funny. In all seriousness, she IS manipulating you.


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## statuscomforts

Ok now its getting a little ridiculous. I haven't even officially broken up or anything and shes telling me shes still at work "on the floor" "unable to text anything meaningful" because she is "such a wreck"......My head is flashing.....weird....and also....You're doing this AT WORK????


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## SecondTime'Round

statuscomforts said:


> Ok now its getting a little ridiculous. I haven't even officially broken up or anything and shes telling me shes still at work "on the floor" "unable to text anything meaningful" because she is "such a wreck"......My head is flashing.....weird....and also....You're doing this AT WORK????


:rofl: <--------------- That's me, also on the floor. 

Seriously, if she's ACTUALLY on the floor she's either going to lose her job, her coworkers hate her and her drama queen routine, she's going to get carted off to the loony bin, or all of the above.  

DO. NOT. ENGAGE.


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## statuscomforts

Yeah I'm like. Trying to imagine if someone at my work did that. I would probably bust out laughing....I can only hope she's lying again or in the bathroom or something haha. Things that make you go, huh?


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## statuscomforts

HAHAHA I JUST REALIZED SHE MEANT ON THE SALES FLOOR!!! So hiliarous that one was my mistake :rofl::rofl: I was so dumbfounded!


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## gouge_away

statuscomforts said:


> I just read Symptoms of Codependency | Psych Central - Part 11992 - The only thing that doesn't fit me is the people pleasing. Everything else is dead on.
> 
> What is TAM?


You are sacrificing your needs to fulfill the wants of your family and fiancée, if that isn't people pleasing, I don't know what is.


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## statuscomforts

Ouch. True


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## statuscomforts

I guess I always thought that sacrifice made you a good person....


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## gouge_away

Another book, this one might help you dig deep into where that thought came from: No More Mr. Nice Guy, Robert Grover.

You can download it free of the Internet's.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...0QFjAA&usg=AFQjCNEit95ggBT8wzzbFQJjd7V2HMGvGw


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## statuscomforts

I feel like i'm in a fantasy world. I am definitely leaving. Last night I got home and after a quick discussion I caught her lying again, about something SO SMALL AND STUPID. The argument turned into a blow up drag out deal, I asked for my ring back, she wouldn't give it up. left me a note this morning about loving me, I asked her again why she would lie about such a small thing and then she lied again lol. Also she obviously found this forum and my posts somehow because she was convinced I was recording her.....Said, "thats what people are telling you to do right?" but denied seeing this forum....Claimed I told her I was going to do that. Its like a damn rabbit hole that goes deeper and deeper. This woman makes ZERO sense.


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## Uptown

statuscomforts said:


> Uptown, she fits 1-14, 17, 18.


Status, that seems consistent with the behaviors you've described here.



> I, at times admittedly, 2-5, 8, 9.


Most likely, Status, you exhibit all of the BPD traits "at times." BPD is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy) -- and to varying degrees at various stages of life. 

During early childhood, for example, we all behave like BPDers 24/7. And many of us start behaving that way again, for several years, when our hormones are raging during the teens. The "flareups" of BPD traits to strong levels can occur again -- for a year or two -- whenever there is a strong hormone change, as can occur during pregnancy, postpartum, perimenopause, or with a severe head injury.

Yet, when strong BPD traits are a _persistent_ personality problem, they do not disappear for years at a time. Instead, they typically start showing themselves very strongly at puberty and will entirely disappear only during the intense infatuation period, which typically lasts 4 to 6 months. The traits disappear during that courtship period because the BPDer's infatuation convinces her that she has met the nearly perfect man who has arrived to save her from unhappiness. At issue, then, is not whether your GF exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot know the answer to that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as very controlling behavior, always being "The Victim," and rapid event-triggered mood flips.

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your GF's issues. Only a professional can do that. The main reason for learning these red flags, then -- like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack -- is to help you avoid a painful situation and decide whether there is sufficient reason to spend money to obtain a professional opinion.



> Three especially because her mom is deranged and sees 2 therapists which doesn't help at all.


Who are you talking about here, Status? Does "three especially" (i.e., extreme jealousy and controlling behavior) refer to your GF's behavior or yours?



> Why can't I force myself to just go am I a glutton for punishment or what? Its like my logical brain is screaming just DO IT and my emotional brain is saying , "shes trying, give her another chance."


Status, listening to your HEAD is very difficult to do, so please don't beat yourself up if you need time to pull it off. The reason is that our inner child (i.e., the intuitive, emotional part of our mind) makes the vast majority of our important decisions. I was 50 years old before I understood that simple notion. And it took me 12 years to do it.

What happened was that, for 12 years, I took my bipolar foster son to a weekly family group meeting with the psychologist who was treating him. Whenever the psychologist challenged me on something, I always had an elaborate well-thought-out explanation for doing whatever I had chosen to do. Never mind that what I had chosen was not working with my foster son and never mind that I kept repeating the same pattern year after year.

The psychologist was always greatly amused by my explanations. He would laugh and point out, in his kindly fashion, that my elaborate rationalizations could not disguise the fact that my inner child -- not my adult -- was calling all the shots, making nearly all the decisions. In any contest between the adult and child, he claimed, the child would almost always win. But I just could not swallow this concept.

Yet, after twelve years of his gentle rebukes, it dawned on me one night -- right as I was about to drift into sleep -- why he had to be right. My inner child, I suddenly realized, is the sole judge of what is fun and what is not fun. That decision is all powerful. The adult part of my mind will nearly always conclude that it makes no sense -- indeed, would be preposterous -- to do something, go somewhere, or date someone I do not enjoy. 

My adult logic thus nearly always has to end up in the lap of my inner child. This is why learning about my exW's problem (BPD) and my problem (excessive caregiver) is the easy part. What is difficult is internalizing that understanding, i.e., transforming knowledge into wisdom, which requires that my feelings catch up with my intellectual thoughts.

Simply stated, I must persuade my child that my adult views of my ex's illness and my own excessive caregiving are correct -- an objective I have mostly attained. Had I failed in that effort, I would remain stuck in a destructive pattern, repeating my past mistakes over and over, because my child will be calling nearly all the shots. Because I had been in a 15 year relationship, it took me at least a year to bring my child's feelings into alignment with my adult's understanding. After just two weeks of intense reading on the Internet, I had a pretty good understanding of what I needed to do to get out of the toxic relationship and why I needed to do it.

Yet, because my child was over a year behind my adult, the child sabotaged my every effort to break away. It hindered me with nagging doubts, terrible guilt, and a strong feeling of obligation. It kept telling me that the theory floating around in the adult part of my mind was an insufficient basis on which to wholly abandon a sick loved one. Even after I had left her, I still refused to go No Contact for eight more months, at which point I finally realized she is incapable of ever being my friend. My adult dragged my child -- with him kicking and screaming every inch of the way -- to that shocking truth. How do you accomplish that? How do you teach a child -- who had felt for many years she was my best friend -- that she never even had that capability?

To bring the child and adult into alignment, what helped me _a little _was talking about my new found knowledge to anyone who would listen. Well, that was good for a week. Then their eyes glazed over. So what helped _the most _was coming to a forum like this, where I could discuss it with people who had been there, done that. Significantly, that helped my mind to associate feelings with each of the intellectual thoughts. That has to be done because the child largely learns from emotional experiences -- not from logic.

Writing and talking will help you internalize the information, turning knowledge into wisdom -- by connecting thoughts to feelings. If you doubt that, simply ask any university professor about its effectiveness. He likely will tell you he never had an intuitive, deep-level understanding of his subject matter until he had to teach it to someone else -- or had to write it down very precisely when publishing research papers. Hence, what I found most helpful is talking about it to anyone who will listen and writing about it to anyone who will write back.



> I guess I always thought that sacrifice made you a good person....


To some extent, Status, being willing to make sacrifices for others DOES make you a good person. But, because life is about achieving a reasonable balance between conflicting goals, it is important that you don't lose yourself in the process. Otherwise, you won't be of any use or help to anyone. 

Moreover, while it admirable that you want to help an adult having the emotional development of a four year old, it is NOT admirable that you proposed marriage to her. If your GF is a BPDer as you believe, she is only capable of having a child/parent relationship with you -- not a wife/husband relationship. You therefore should be focusing your parental efforts on your child, not your GF.

Further, you should let go of the false notion that your sacrifices are actually helping your GF. If she is a BPDer, your continued presence in the home likely is HARMING her, not helping her. This occurs because, whenever you draw close to a BPDer, you unavoidably will trigger her two fears: abandonment and engulfment. This triggering results in repeated temper tantrums and outbursts around the children, harming them. 

At the same time, your attempts to avoid the triggers -- by always walking on eggshells -- means that you are harming your GF by protecting her from the logical consequences of her own bad behaviors and bad choices. Hence, your enabling behavior destroys her opportunities to have to confront her own issues and learn how to manage them. It therefore is important to let go of the false notion that, by sacrificing your life and happiness for this GF, you are somehow helping her. You are not. 



> I think I do have a problem with codependency....


Any man tolerating an abusive toxic relationship for 3 years -- and who had an even more toxic relationship prior to the current one -- almost certainly has strong "codependency" traits. Yet, with the term "codependency," it is important to always define up front exactly what you mean when using this term. Because it is not considered a mental disorder, "codependency" is not defined in the APA's diagnostic manual DSM-5. Nor are there any plans to add it. As long as most religions in the world continue to regard selflessness and self-sacrifice as the keys to heaven -- and most nations continue to rely on their young peoples' willingness to sacrifice themselves for national security, there is little chance of it being considered a "disorder" any time soon.

Likewise, if you go to the website of CoDA (largest association of "codependents" in the world), you will find much discussion but absolutely no definition. Instead, CoDA offers a list of more than fifty "patterns and characteristics" -- nearly as many traits as what the DSM-5 lists for all ten personality disorders COMBINED. The only "pattern" left out of that lengthy list is that seen on the wallpaper in your kitchen. Clearly, CoDA is essentially a political organization that, in order to appease the many thousands of separate member groups all over the world, has obediently included all views and suggestions. Hence, absent a definition in the DSM, "codependency" is whatever you choose to say it is.

Because I usually target my posts to the caregivers and fixers -- i.e., the white-knight "saviors" who often find themselves mired in toxic relationships with BPDers -- I usually define "codependency" simply as "excessive caregiving," which largely tracks Shari Schreiber's use of the term. I therefore suggest you read Schreiber's explanation of codependency at Do You Love to be Needed, or Need to be Loved? Please be patient, because the last half of her article is even better than the first. I also like the book, _Codependent No Mor_e.

What I find offensive are the many definitions of codependency that emphasize the need to control loved ones, often to the point of deliberately (or subconsciously) keeping them sick so the "codependent" continues to feel needed. I find that definition offensive because my experience with "codependents" -- including you and myself -- is that we make every effort to obtain professional help and guidance for our loved ones.

Our problem, as Schreiber explains, is that our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are). The problem is not that we want to help people but, rather, that we are willing to keep doing it when it is to our great detriment to do so.

The result is that, when we are out looking for a mate, we are drawn to the wounded birds and we ignore all the men running in the other direction. We also ignore the fact that BPD is a type of wound we cannot fix. We therefore will keep walking right past all the emotionally available women (BORING). We will keep walking until we find a woman who desperately needs us, making us feel like knights who have ridden in on white horses.

Part of this problem is our low self esteem, which we build up by finding someone who sorely needs us. Another part is our mistaking being *needed* for being *loved*. And a third problem is the way we intellectualize and analyze everything to death. Although this works to our great advantage most of the time, it can be a serious liability when we put ourselves in a dangerous situation trying to fix the unfixable and trying to make an unhappy woman happy.

The men who are more emotionally healthy than us do not do that. They don't tease every action and statement apart when the verbal abuse starts. Instead, they feel angered and offended and disrespected -- and they walk out. In sharp contrast, you and I will hang on for years ignoring our hurt feelings and loss of dignity. We do that because we are so focused on analyzing the relationship in minute detail, looking for any possible way to help our sick loved one. We think, "if I had only done this" and "maybe, if I only tried doing that."

Another view I find offensive is the misguided notion that we excessive caregivers are _"weak_." Typically, a divorced caregiver will be found working a 40 hour job and going home at night to care for 3 kids and 2 dogs -- and still finding time, on the weekends, to go out looking for a mate to take care of too. I mention all this because -- until you learn to how to build stronger personal boundaries and start taking care of YOURSELF -- you are at risk of leaving your BPDer GF only to run right into the arms of another woman just like her. 

Because we are caregivers to a fault, we are strongly attracted to anyone projecting a strong sense of vulnerability. For us, it is as attractive as catnip is to cats. And BPDers, forever thinking of themselves as victims, are masters at projecting vulnerability. I have a friend, for example, who is now dating the third woman (in a row) who exhibits emotional instability and other strong BPD traits.

These considerations imply that it can be _extremely difficult_ for anyone to persuade us to stay away from a toxic relationship. And this is especially true when our partners have strong BPD traits. Hence, the very first thing I encourage a person like you to do is to read about BPD traits so you understand what you've been dealing with. This gives you several important insights: 


Your GF's dysfunctional behavior likely originated in childhood and thus is beyond your ability to fix;
You cannot avoid triggering her temper tantrums because, as you move away from one fear (abandonment) you unavoidably move closer to triggering the other fear (engulfment);
Your efforts to comfort and calm her are counter-productive because they prevent her from facing her issues and learning how to control them; and
This "enabling" behavior harms her by allowing her to continue acting like a child.
Once you realize that you likely are harming your sick loved one, you're freed from the feelings of obligation and guilt that are tying you to the toxic relationship.


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## gouge_away

Enter mrs. Status


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## statuscomforts

When I said 3 especially, "isolating from family and freinds," I almost always dissaproved of her freinds and family minus a few select people. I think they are terrible people. It didn't start that way, but led that way after incidents like her mom busting open my back door telling me i will never be caden's (the 8 year old) father blah blah blah. When I asked her to leave her boyfreind got out of the car and started threatening me. It almost broke into a fistfight. Since then I don't like her mom. Haven't liked her sister since she was drunk in my house and tried to take a swing at me calling me a POS because I said I shouldn't be treated disrepectfully after I just paid all her bills. She said "YOU SHOULD pay all the bills for her no matter what she does." Don't like her. Freinds that are white trash to the core or have 3000 pictures on face book, most of which inappropriate....Don't like them. So, 3 especially. For me.


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## gouge_away

Lol
Did I hear this right, your family is very religious, and that is why you feel pressured to marry this woman?


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## statuscomforts

It just gets better and better. My mother had asked me why I was so unhappy. I decided to give her an honest answer and told her I think I may have some codependent traits and am almost positive bethany has borderline personality disorder and that a doctor had previously diagnosed her with it before I met her. I provided her with some links to read and just get an idea of what is going on so she can better understand the situation. I just asked her if she got a chance to read up on it and she said

"dad and I are out so I don't have time to talk. I did read it and I have to tell you I am really confused. You are obviously searching for answers to questions you have about how you interact with people. A little concerning to me that you are diagnosing yourself over the internet. Didn't know you were so unhappy. Just weeks ago you seemed to have decided on a direction (the engagement) in your life. I am worried for her and the kids."

Am I wrong for feeling like that is a complete horse**** response? I want to tell her to just forget I even said anything and screw off.


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## statuscomforts

And the above post is a small example of why i feel pressured. Its nothing to do with religion, my mom has literally told me they favor her over me and last time I left they refused to talk to me.


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## SecondTime'Round

After reading your post from 3:26pm today, I'm starting to wonder if you BOTH don't have some issues contributing to this dysfunction,. Now, I've had 2 glasses of wine, but I really can't follow your rambling in that post. So I'm a bit more inclined to sympathize with what your mother said to you......


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## statuscomforts

Do you mean, 5:26?


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## SecondTime'Round

I see it as 3:26, but probably 5:26 to you. I'm EST.


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## statuscomforts

The one about "3 especially"? If that's what you're referring to it was a direct response to a question uptown asked about the bulletpoint number 3 on the list of borderline personality disorder traits list from the link he provided. I was saying that I myself am guilty of bulletpoint number 3 and gave some examples of why. I could see how it wouldn't make sense if you didn't know that.

I hope that nobody thinks I am dragging on this thread, I just am still going through this and this forum has been a wealth of knowledge and a great support. In my state of mind I don't want to make any snap decisions without passing it through someone first, which is what I was doing with my moms text that upset me.


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## gouge_away

I think he's confused, and because he is so easily controlled/manipulated he takes on these traits.

What distinguishes him apart is his self awareness, he can see and understand this isn't normal, hence why he is reaching out...

But, he needs to fix himself first, he is in no state of mind to even try manipulating a master manipulator.


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## statuscomforts

I'm extremely confused, especially right now at this exact moment in time. I feel like I just missed something. Can someone fill me in please?


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## gouge_away

Talking about your contribution to the dysfunction.


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## gouge_away

Co-dependant people pleaser + manipulative controller = toxic relationship.


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## Uptown

statuscomforts said:


> I myself am guilty of bulletpoint number 3 and gave some examples of why.


Status, a BPDer has a great fear of abandonment and engulfment and thus will try to control all aspects of her partner's private life. To make that control far more effective, she will try to isolate him away from all friends and family members so they cannot undermine her efforts to control him. This, then, is why such attempts to isolate the partner is listed as one of the warning signs for BPD.

Importantly, exhibiting such behavior does not imply that a person has strong BPD traits. This is why I refer to this behavior as a "warning sign," not as "evidence" or "proof" of anything. Certainly, there are numerous people -- a group that may include you -- who have very good reason to dislike and distrust their partner's family. If your GF's family members have been abusive, threatening, and mean-spirited -- as you describe them -- you likely have good reason for not wanting to be around them. In this case, your objective is not to make it easier to control your GF but, rather, to simply avoid her abusive relatives.


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## Satya

Uptown said:


> [...]she will try to isolate him away from all friends and family members so they cannot undermine her efforts to control him. This, then, is why such attempts to isolate the partner is listed as one of the warning signs for BPD.


I like to call this kind of behavior "grooming."

Once a person is groomed, it is very difficult to remove them from their "stable" reality created by the controlling party. Friends and family eventually give up and this becomes the last life lines disappearing for the codependent.

I can say this with conviction because it was something my ex husband did to me. He created an environment where I was very controlled, conditioned to remain at home when I wasn't working, checked up on constantly so I LEARNED to always check in with him constantly, tell him what I was doing, where I was going, when I'd be home, etc. My mother never felt comfortable calling me because he'd always be there, sitting next to me (could never have privacy). At the time I had no clue how controlling these behaviors were until I was removed from this environment and had spent 2 years post-divorce learning about how messed up it all was.

I dated a man for a brief time that started to groom me in a similar way, and I ran the other way, at the speed of The Flash, because I recognized the red flags.


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## statuscomforts

I am moving out right now. All my freinds keep sending me texts reminding me that she won't change, and I need to man up and get out. But as I'm loading boxes and things into my truck she is crying and begging me to stay. Promising me it will work. Promising me I'll be happy. I continue loading things but it is just so hard. I want to beleive her so bad, I shouldn't though right? Just keep loading boxes until I'm done and go, right?


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## SecondTime'Round

statuscomforts said:


> I am moving out right now. All my freinds keep sending me texts reminding me that she won't change, and I need to man up and get out. But as I'm loading boxes and things into my truck she is crying and begging me to stay. Promising me it will work. Promising me I'll be happy. I continue loading things but it is just so hard. I want to beleive her so bad, I shouldn't though right? *NO, YOU SHOULDN'T BELIEVE HER!!!! *Just keep loading boxes until I'm done and go, right? *JUST KEEP LOADING, JUST KEEP LOADING!!*


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## Uptown

statuscomforts said:


> I want to believe her so bad, I shouldn't though right?


Status, yesterday you wrote:_*I am definitely leaving.* Last night I got home and after a quick discussion *I caught her lying again*, about something SO SMALL AND STUPID. The argument turned into a blow up drag out deal._​


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## gouge_away

You will have plenty of time to think once your in your new place.

Let her feel this, she needs to feel this.

And if she starts acting suicidal, you tell her your not talking to her till she gets out of that phase.

And record that ****.


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## SecondTime'Round

gouge_away said:


> You will have plenty of time to think once your in your new place.
> 
> Let her feel this, she needs to feel this.
> 
> And if she starts acting suicidal, you tell her your not talking to her till she gets out of that phase.
> 
> And record that ****.


Actually, if she threatens suicide, call the authorities.


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## Elizabeth001

I envy you...I wish I was moving out right now. It might be a sh1t storm but I would know I'm going to a place of peace. 

Hang in there. A lot of people are pulling for you


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## Elizabeth001

Status...what's going on with you? Are things calming down? How are you feeling?


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## Elizabeth001

FlowerChild...that was the postest of the mostest!


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## statuscomforts

Hey! Thanks for checking up on me! Its an interesting time. She has pulled some stunts while I've been gone that have pushed me away even further. For example pretending someone was in the house burglarizing it to get me to come over, which ended up with the police being called and her mother getting involved who I promptly told to kick rocks. The communication is getting less and less on my end, which is making her grasp at straws. But she still didn't line up a counseling appointment like she said she would. Must not be that important. I've been enjoying my new room at my friends and still seeing the kids alot. (she fought that at first but is fine with it now.) Reconnecting with old freinds. Job started to get better with a different frame of mind. Lots of attention from women when I go out. The only problem I have now is she is still wearing her ring saying i am her fiance, she just isnt getting the point. I don't want to be completely rude and tell her to screw off but I wish she could see that this is declining not getting better between us. I have a date tommorrow night (just fun on both our ends, not a relationship thing) and I feel guilty about going because I feel like I'm hurting her even though I know I shouldn't. Anyways, if it weren't for this forum I probably would have convinced myself to go back. I'm glad so far I haven't. I am MUCH less stressed and feel like my old self is coming back. Thanks guys! How's your situation going elizabeth?


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## statuscomforts

Oh, and my family DID end up shunning me. We havent spoken since they found out I left. I decided, F*** em. I mean really to not even call and see how I was dealing with things or ask what happened. Unacceptable.


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## gouge_away

statuscomforts said:


> The only problem I have now is she is still wearing her ring saying i am her fiance, she just isnt getting the point. I don't want to be completely rude and tell her to screw off but I wish she could see that this is declining not getting better between us.


Lorna Morello


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## Openminded

Based on her history, she obviously doesn't appreciate subtlety so tell her and keep repeating it. Because right now? She thinks this is temporary and you'll be back.


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## Elizabeth001

Sounds like you're doing great Status. Good for you!!

I posted an update on my original post. Things have been better. He's trying harder and better than ever before. I'm trying not to get my hopes up too high in case it is just another loop around the same circle. At least the tension has eased up at home. 

Thanks for asking


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