# Analyzing the sex problem...



## inabox (Jun 24, 2008)

I have been browsing this forum for a little bit (just registered) trying to see if my problem is in anyway unique. Sadly its not.

I'm a 28 year old male with a wife and kids. 
We've been together for longer than 10 years (I don't want to reveal too much). 

Anyway it seems like the dominant problem on here is sex or lack thereof. It seems to clearly be a problem more so for the men then for the women. For men sex is important in a relationship for many women it seems not to be. 

I've been reading many suggestions by both the men and the women of the board on how to fix the problem. Everything from talking about it to denying sex and see how they like it. I have tried all of these already and none seem to give the long term results that I am seeking.

Usually following one of my attempts at talking about it, it follows with a small uptick in sexual activity and then it falls back to normal. When I do the other extreme of complete avoidance it just prolongs the annoyance! 

My wife has made the argument that we are having sex more often then I can remember. 

I am pretty analytical, and decided to somehow prove to me wife that its really not as often as she thinks it is.
So for the last 7 months I have been keeping track of how often we have actually had sex.

I've put it with dates, the time of the night and the duration of time we have it and a ranking (1-5). I've even put descriptions and explanations on the gaps, everything from headaches to aunt flo. 

At one point following the children it was a lack of "feeling sexy" and her body not looking to same. Lets just say I threw money at this problem with little gain at all in the result.

I found that on average people in my age bracket have sex on average upwards of 100+ times per year. (Reading this board I am sure those analysts would differ ). As it stands now towards the end of June we have had sex a WHOPPING 15 times. 

On the same analysis (Link Here) it shows that people in the 30-40 group have sex 80+ times per year and the 40-50 group have it on average 60+ times per year. 

At this rate you can see my frustration as it doesn't seem like I'll break the 50's club!

My question is, have any women been confronted from their man with an actual break down of how often or how little they actually have sex? I can't be the only one that has done this.

I am debating on weather or not I should bring this up to her NOW or wait till my set 1 year time period. My objective was to gather a years worth of data and present her with it, but its been bothering me a lot lately. I want SEX damn it! Is that too much to ask for? 

My next step is to document it by the day, probably a 60 day period to show the excuses on a daily basis. During this period I'll stop my avoidance attempts and just do the little soft stuff that women so crave all the time throughout the day for an hour of POSSIBLE satisfaction they may or may NOT give their husbands at the end of the night. 

Its probably my last step before seeking professional help from a counselor, but figured maybe someone on here has been presented with this and the result.

Any advice is also very welcome.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

I have never received anything like that in writing, but can tell you it would annoy me if my husband was in effect compiling a list of what he viewed as my negative behavior just to prove he was right. It definitely would not make me want to have sex with him more often.

A few years back my husband and I were in the same place. Mine were with depression, self-image issues...he was having issues dealing with my kids (he's their step-dad) & every time he'd say 'I can't deal with this...I can't take this' it just pushed me further away. It was impossible for me to get close to someone I felt was eventually going to bail.

Anyway, once we were forced to deal with our marriage we both learned some things that we had probably said to each other before (he'd want more sex...i'd say it's not a physical thing for me i need to feel connected)...but he/I didn't really get it. I read some interesting books and looked in some forums like this and realized that most men _need _ sex...it wasn't like me that enjoys the closeness etc. and he understood what I meant about feeling close and connected to him...no, it really wasn't just excuses to avoid him!

Anyway, that was really it...really understanding what the other person is saying, taking it seriously and wanting them to be happy.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I totally get compiling proof because you need validation about what you know to be true, that your wife is avoiding intimacy.

the thing is, your wife will both deny that is so and continue avoiding intimacy at an even greater intensity once she is boxed in by your proof. She will refute your proof and punish you for it.

I did a similar thing, just marking a calendar each time we had sex to prove to her that it was once a month or less. She was emphatic that it was once a week (bad enough) except when she was x, y, or z.

I showed it to her when I said I do not want a sexless marriage anymore.

Her reaction? That she had her own calendar that proves otherwise!

So I ask her to get it out and show it to me. of course she refused, she said it was private.

Yeah, it didn't exist! 

Did our sex life improve? heck no, she doesn't want to have more sex than she is already having.

Was it worth it? On one level, yes. Because I was able to call BS to her lying.

On another level, no, because it didn't cause a positive reassessment of her deliberate denial of sufficient intimacy expressed by her husband.

So getting back to what you did. Bravo for validating the reality of your situation. But please realize the futility of compiling a data base of facts when you are dealing with an irrational spouse who will be dismissive of both the truth and having their nose rubbed in it.


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## stumped (May 16, 2008)

inabox said:


> I have been browsing this forum for a little bit (just registered) trying to see if my problem is in anyway unique. Sadly its not.
> 
> I'm a 28 year old male with a wife and kids.
> We've been together for longer than 10 years (I don't want to reveal too much).
> ...


I have a couple questions.......

How are you initiate sex? Are you asking for it or do you try to kiss, caress etc to initiate it?

Im not sure if this is an allowable question or if it is too personal but to keep it clean does your wifes door bell ring during sex or do you make sure it does at some point during sex? 

How often are you trying to initiate sex?


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

michzz said:


> Did our sex life improve? heck no, she doesn't want to have more sex than she is already having.
> 
> Was it worth it? On one level, yes. Because I was able to call BS to her lying.
> 
> On another level, no, because it didn't cause a positive reassessment of her deliberate denial of sufficient intimacy expressed by her husband.


If your goal is to win the argument about how much sex you have, this will work.

I can't see it leading to more sex, though.

What is your goal after all? Keep your eyes on the prize


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## TheLuckiest08 (Jun 2, 2008)

If you bring up these statistics with your wife it will GUARANTEE that you get no sex. 

Who cares about statistics?? My husband and I have been together 8 years and have sex once a week, on rare occasions twice. We're 28 and 29. If it were up to me we'd be having it more, but my husband has a lower sex drive than I do and is usually too tired when he comes home from work. Do I confront him with a list of times we had sex and statistics about what OTHER couples are doing? NO. 

You guys have two kids...how much do you help out with them? Moms with young kids are usually exhausted. Maybe take the kids and go somewhere once in a while so she can have time to herself. 

I understand your frustration, I really do because I've been the one who's been frustrated. But you really just have to compromise and realize it's not the most important thing.

Also, IMO 15 times in 6 months isn't that bad. It's not like she's not having sex with you at all.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

swedish said:


> If your goal is to win the argument about how much sex you have, this will work.
> 
> I can't see it leading to more sex, though.
> 
> What is your goal after all? Keep your eyes on the prize


I like to live in the truth of how things are, not in a whitewashed thing. if it turns out that my wife would have more sex with me if I did x, y, and z, I would do it and in fact have done those things. net result? Same as the original poster.

I want to be sure that I have done all that I can to revive things. I can only do that. I cannot get my wife to acknowledge that there is serious problem when her position is that there is no problem.

If I escalate things to the point of divorce, an increasing possibility, one I have even raised with her, then my conscience is clear. I jumped through hoops.

If my wife is so disengaged from our shared intimacy then so be it. When I disengage entirely, then she can't say she wasn't warned about the effects of that disengagement.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

michzz said:


> I cannot get my wife to acknowledge that there is serious problem when her position is that there is no problem.


I was probably in her position at one point & in all honesty, most of my married friends were having less sex than we were so I did not see it as a problem. It was only after I had done some reading and really understood how this made my husband feel, was I able to make changes in this area. I honestly did not get it before that.

I'm starting to think maybe women should have to meet a room full of men in almost/sexless marriages and listen to how they are feeling at what they are thinking prior to getting married.

and to be fair, men should have to sit on a public toilet with the seat up


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

What I do not understand is how i can say it directly, even in marriage counselling, show her books and articles on the subject, and still no grokking of it as serious by her. 

We're not talking about pestering her for sex every day whimpering like a hound wanting in the kitchen door. in fact, there are many extended periods of time where i just let it go. I even let it ride for 18 months not too long ago just to see how long she'd go before even mentioning it was occurring. 

Not a peep out of her about it. I had to bring it up. That particular drought started when i complained that once every several months was not normal. But I am not going to beg, you let me know when you want to be intimate again.

She NEVER brought it up. 

I was so angry. Yeah rejection hurts. 

Her reasoning? She was not going to bring it up because i made it an issue, not her.

So she turned it into a pissing match.







swedish said:


> I was probably in her position at one point & in all honesty, most of my married friends were having less sex than we were so I did not see it as a problem. It was only after I had done some reading and really understood how this made my husband feel, was I able to make changes in this area. I honestly did not get it before that.
> 
> I'm starting to think maybe women should have to meet a room full of men in almost/sexless marriages and listen to how they are feeling at what they are thinking prior to getting married.
> 
> and to be fair, men should have to sit on a public toilet with the seat up


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

michzz said:


> Her reasoning? She was not going to bring it up because i made it an issue, not her.


Here's another thought...I totally agree that this was an issue for my husband and not for me. And when reading from the man's point of view what is normal as far as how often they want it, etc. gave me some insight, but still was not my issue. 

Here's what made it my issue (right or wrong as far as what I read) That men are visual creatures and often look at other women (pictures or in real life) and imagine having sex with them. OK, I know I was naive in this area but this freaked me out and so I asked my husband if this was true and he said yes...which freaked me out even more but I'm glad he was honest. 

So I figured the less satisfied he is with the sex within the marriage the more likely he is to look elsewhere...not necessarily act on it but even the looking and temptation is disturbing to me...mainly because I can't say that I've ever looked at a man and wanted to have sex with him...get to know him maybe or think he's attractive but I just don't look at men in a sexual way until I've known them a while and then become attracted & wouldn't think of going there since I'm married. Don't know if that's a woman thing or a me thing.

Anyway, I guess this enlightenment made it my issue in some way as I do have a vested interest in keeping his focus on me (although I'm sure he still looks when I'm not there) Not to say all men are this way or think this way but it did make me think.


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## BlueCreek (May 5, 2008)

I absolutely have been where you are and can almost guarantee you that compiling stats will just tick her off. One of the important things to understand is that stats mean squat. What is normal for one couple is abnormal for another. Just because the average couple has sex X/month means diddley to the person who simple does not feel that desire or interest, no matter how much they love you. 

Generally speaking, the one with the lower labido simply does not see it as their problem. I went around and around with my wife for seven years trying to get her to understand how tightly integrated my intimacy needs were to my emotional ones. As many hints as I dropped, as many ways as I tried to explain the loneliness, rejection, and misery the issue was giving me, she never saw it as anything but a physical need, and that was my issue to deal as the one who was "over sexed". It was only after she finally got it, finally understood how unhappy I was because my emotional needs were not being met, that things turned around for us. 

Now I'm happier, and consequently she is happier because I am a better husband and father when I'm not depressed half the time. Also, she discovered that she can feel plenty of desire, she just needs to work up to it and be stimulated before it kicks in. Before she just never wanted intimacy because the desire wasn't there to drive her to want to do anything. So anyway, don't give up, and unless it is obvious she is directly trying to hurt you, try not to take it to personally as rejection.


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## Healing (May 30, 2008)

I just want to say that thinking of keeping count makes me really sad.

My hubby and I have had sex 3 times from the beginning of 2008 to present. I didn't want to keep count but last year (2007), I think we had sex maybe 8 times in total. I have gone for months without any sexual intimacy, not even in a broader sense like making out or kissing.

And it really upsets me. I'm not the one not wanting it. I don't think anything is wrong with me physically or appearance-wise. It isn't true that its always wives who have low libido, lots of women on these boards and everywhere are getting neglected by their husbands as well.

There's just so little help for wives like me. Sometimes I feel like giving up hope, I don't know why it has to be so hard.

I have tried everything, I don't know what else to do. I don't even care how satisfying it is for me, I just want to be intimate in some way, any way. Its so difficult when I know that there would be plenty of men out there jumping to hook up with me but all I want is HIM. I sometimes wonder if I just tell him that I've had enough and I'm giving up, whether he will fight to keep me or just give up.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

inabox said:


> On the same analysis shows that people in the 30-40 group have sex 80+ times per year .


Actually we are about 200+ times a year 3-5 times a week. But more then sex makes up a good marriage. Communication, understanding, trust, and love all play a big role.

draconis


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## inabox (Jun 24, 2008)

draconis said:


> Actually we are about 200+ times a year 3-5 times a week. But more then sex makes up a good marriage. Communication, understanding, trust, and love all play a big role.
> 
> draconis


Yeah but the 200+ times a year is a HUGE positive.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

inabox said:


> Yeah but the 200+ times a year is a HUGE positive.


Perspective please! 200+ and you're complaining?

Deprivation? Try less than once a month.


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## inabox (Jun 24, 2008)

Lots of stuff and I want to get to everyone.
Here goes.




stumped said:


> I have a couple questions.......
> 
> How are you initiate sex? Are you asking for it or do you try to kiss, caress etc to initiate it?
> 
> ...


I am pretty intimate. 
I do the backrub, the lotion, the caressing, the kissing.
Hell I shower before hand, brush, groom etc. All in hopes of something to flare up. ZIP.
I occasionally throughout the day may even give her a kiss on the neck while in the kitchen, or come up behind her and give her a hug. Rub her head. Grab her bottom affectionately. Just randomly kiss her, no reason just do it.

I have been the initiator a total now of 14 times out of 16. It would be more but I give up.

I am batting 1,000 if you that is what you are asking. 
I make SURE that her needs and pleasure is met before meeting my own. She cums all the time if that is what we are getting at here.

I initiate it pretty often. Or as often as possible. 
I've done the two parts of the spectrum. Initiate it as often as possible and denied it for as long as possible. Nothing on the lengths that some have posted on here. Maybe 3-4 weeks I think is the most. Any longer then that and seriously I would seek a divorce. It would not be worth it in my opinion to wait MONTHS for it. I rather leave. 









TheLuckiest08 said:


> If you bring up these statistics with your wife it will GUARANTEE that you get no sex.
> 
> Who cares about statistics?? My husband and I have been together 8 years and have sex once a week, on rare occasions twice. We're 28 and 29. If it were up to me we'd be having it more, but my husband has a lower sex drive than I do and is usually too tired when he comes home from work. Do I confront him with a list of times we had sex and statistics about what OTHER couples are doing? NO.


Why not?
Why not confront him with this.
I care about statistics. I want a normal sex life. That can't be to much to ask for is it?
How can you guarantee something that you have not tried?




TheLuckiest08 said:


> You guys have two kids...how much do you help out with them? Moms with young kids are usually exhausted. Maybe take the kids and go somewhere once in a while so she can have time to herself.



I am not one of those dads that leave everything to the woman to do. I help around the house pretty often. I am usually the one to put the kids to sleep as well as bathe them. Soon as I get home I play with them. I help with the dishes, I do the laundry most of the time. I mop, I sweep and I am pretty damn handy around the house. 

So no I am not a lazy dude.

Put it like this. With our second child she made the request of staying home full time with the kids. I said fine, anything to make you feel better. I said lets do it for 1 year. It was hard but we managed to do it for 18 months! I was stressed the HELL OUT with bills and mortgage payments but luckily it has worked out. During that same time she felt bad about her body and how having a second child changed it. Saggy belly, stretch marks, boobs sagging. etc. etc.

I said fine, what do you want to do? She said surgery. Umm ok.. sure.
I even PAID for the surgery to have everything corrected. Tummy tuck, breast augmentation and size increase. All to comfort HER. I was content with what her body looked like. She said she didn't _FEEL_ sexy anymore. Well its been a while now since surgery. Sex hasn't changed much at all either.

She continues to believe that we have it more often then I let on. So my sheet will prove that otherwise. I am also in the process of starting a daily log of happenings at home. And also the sheet and the log aren't just the bad, but the good as well.
Not just a simple calender either. But details of the night and the experience. 




TheLuckiest08 said:


> I understand your frustration, I really do because I've been the one who's been frustrated. But you really just have to compromise and realize it's not the most important thing.
> 
> Also, IMO 15 times in 6 months isn't that bad. It's not like she's not having sex with you at all.


Its almost 7 months.
That is only because I initiate it.
Otherwise it would have been 2. 

I understand the lowered libido thing somewhat, but I honestly think that women start to search around on the internet and seek that as an excuse. For what? I don't know. If its all emotional then I think I am covering all the necessary areas and nothing is changing. 

This is like I said, my last attempt before professional help. I am hoping it will shed some light on the situation and how we can improve on it. 




michzz said:


> I want to be sure that I have done all that I can to revive things. I can only do that. I cannot get my wife to acknowledge that there is serious problem when her position is that there is no problem.



EXACTLY!
At the very LEAST she should work on it as well.
Most times dudes aren't just IN the mood, they GET in the mood. 




michzz said:


> If I escalate things to the point of divorce, an increasing possibility, one I have even raised with her, then my conscience is clear. I jumped through hoops.
> 
> If my wife is so disengaged from our shared intimacy then so be it. When I disengage entirely, then she can't say she wasn't warned about the effects of that disengagement.


Preach on brother. Preach on!


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I once did as you did, kept track of work time versus free time for both myself and my wife. This was a time i didn't know she was full on cheating on me and we had small kids.

Guess what? I was working 50+ hours at a job, some of it at home. She was working weekends at an apartment complex, where conveniently, she was banging some jerk tenant there.

We had babysitting during the week supposedly so she could attend school. funny how it worked out that she was using that sitter time to go get laid.

I know I did most of the kid time, the clean the house, upkeep the yard time. 

I got suckered and used.

Pretty bitter about it.

She was always railing on about how much she was doing choreswise and financially.

a couple loads of her laundry is not much in the way of chores.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

The scenario you describe is painfully familiar. I fully understand your reasoning for keeping the spreadsheet - but I can tell you with some certainty that confronting her with it _will not_ move you in the direction of a resolution.

My wife's follow-up question to the frequency question, was in my mind, an absolute red herring. She would ask; "So, how much is enough?" Her position was that if she was submitting or felt coerced, she wouldn't be happy. Whereas it was apparent that I wasn't happy.
I suggested that we would benefit from counseling. She rolled her eyes. I went to counseling by myself, to make decisions for myself (same counselor we had engaged due to the same issues four years ago). The therapist readily recognized that little had changed.

Two weeks later, I asked her; "Do you know why I want to go to counseling?"

I got the eye roll again. She responded,"Because you don't think we have sex often enough."

I told her she was wrong. I was in counseling to determine if I wanted to stay married to her. That answer changed the game up significantly.

So, my 2 cents is, get yourself a therapist and make some decisions. Either a plan to repair your marriage, or a plan for an equitable dissolution. If you can bring her on board, all the better. 

As for the spreadsheet, I can see that it is a tool that illustrates your point, but statistics aren't the means to addressing your problem.

I know very well your frustration. Good luck as you move forward.


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## inabox (Jun 24, 2008)

In the end did you two (michz & Deejo) divorce your wives?


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

No, I have not - yet.

There have been intervening circumstances, especially serious health problems for one of our kids, that have stalled resolving things.

So it has been a very difficult life to say the least.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

inabox said:


> In the end did you two (michz & Deejo) divorce your wives?


We are still together. We have our first counseling session in two weeks. We both recognize that there is a good deal of work to be done, and things could go either way. Counseling is likely to put tremendous pressure on the peace we have built over the last two weeks - simply because doing the work means going to uncomfortable places. 

My goal with our therapy is to come up with a plan - that we can both agree to, and in effect measure, to later make a determination if we are in fact changing how we relate to one another. I should emphasize that sex is a large component of our difficulties, but by no means the only one.


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## cao428 (Jun 26, 2008)

I don't think keeping count will help the situation. I totally understand your frustration. My husband wanted it EVERYDAY and I accommodated him 98% of the time just because I undertstood a man needs it and he travels alot so I wanted him to feel fulfilled so he wouldn't stray. He did anyway. Since he strayed I think his guilt came in to play and he wasn't sleeping with me all of a sudden as much, and seemed disinterested. And so I have been feeling neglected. I LIKE having it every day or every other day, because it makes me feel connected to him.

I do know women need to feel connected before the sex act and kissing & foreplay is extremely important. Do you take time for this? I know having my husband come up behind me while I was doing something and wrap his arms around me was the most wonderful thing and would really help me to get "in the mood". 

But the only other advice I can think of to give you is like a former person mentioned, maybe help with the children more so she won't feel so overwhelmed with what she has to do. Help her with some other things like if she cooks help with the dishes. Make sure you guys go out alone once a week minimum to have alone time on a date. Try to add romance into your lives, buy her flowers for no reason. Take dance lessons together if you can as corney as it sounds...it's a good male/female thing to do. Compliment her often so she feels appreciated. I guess my point is as hard as it might be focus on the positive and not on the negative. It will take time and I don't know if you will get results as fast as you would like as you sound very frustrated and I feel for you. Women don't always seem to realize how important this is. It's really good you two are going for help from a counselor as hard as that can be. 

Hope this helped some and good luck!


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## carmaenforcer (Mar 7, 2008)

Hello* inabox*

I am also a very analytical person by nature and profession and have actually implemented this skill in trying to compile evidence of what my Wife does that is detrimental to our relationship. 
It's difficult to be intelligent and logical and have a successful relationship with a woman that denies, manipulates the truth or flat out lies all the time and not want to draw up a chart to throw in their face.

Like someone said here though, they don't like it too much when you bring up their faults and they flat out hate it when you compile a detailed folder.

That's not to say you shouldn't keep doing what you are doing, I personally applaud your efforts and think more men should stop trying to "see things their way", grow some and follow your lead.

I take notes on exact words exchanged, time/date, situation leading to event, etc. and bring it up at just the right moment. Timing is crucial in any successful maneuver and conditioning over a long period of time more than likely will be needed for optimal effectiveness and to achieve true lasting progress. 
It's not unlike the brain washing of P.O.W.s and if your start feeling bad about it at all, don't, just remember that they have been doing it to us for centuries, re-conditioning I mean.


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## brenda (Jun 27, 2008)

This may not be an image issue, or something you can quick fix at all, some people just have a low sex drive. They don't desire having sex at all. The question here could be, how do you make someone do something they don't want to do? I think that you probably need to seek professional help with this problem.


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## Cindy (May 10, 2008)

Wow, that would hurt my feelings if my husband did that to me. 

What my husband did that was much more effective, he sat me down and told he was not happy (which I already knew) and basically said, this marriage is not happy, he was miserable and hated our marriage. I couldn't help but pay attention to that because I took as he hated me. (I know he didn't but it painted the picture of the resentment he had.) I wanted my husband to be proud of me because I love and respect him, which he had earned, and I was depriving him and essentially myself, of what we deserved, a wholesome sex life and happy marriage for both of us.

Recently, I've been listening to Dr. Laura, she's a talk radio host that encourages woman to have more sex with their husbands and wrote a book "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands." I've heard good things about the book even from people who don't agree with her often. I plan on picking up a copy. Apparently she helps turn that light bulb for wives who are clueless to the damage we do to our men by depriving them.

Maybe it could help your wife too. You have to keep talking to her, not trying to corner her with her shortcomings. Best wishes!


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## Sharpie (Jun 30, 2008)

My husband and I have been battling this same issue for a long time now. I think he must also stash a calendar somewhere. Every two weeks he gets angry at me, we fight ,I shut down and of course nothing is accomplished. 
I understand why he needs it. My husband is very emotionally needy. And sex is what he needs to feel close/loved/wanted. I truly understand his needs. 
There is not a day that goes by that I dont think about him and his need for sex. I have tried looking for vitamins and different lubricants. I have read different forums and even tried thinking about sex more often to try and get myself more in the mood. 
By the time I get myself mentally excited about sex my husband will start harping on me again about not having sex that I loose all momentum again. 
Maybe your wife is thinking more about your sex life than you know.


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## inabox (Jun 24, 2008)

cao428 said:


> I do know women need to feel connected before the sex act and kissing & foreplay is extremely important. Do you take time for this? I know having my husband come up behind me while I was doing something and wrap his arms around me was the most wonderful thing and would really help me to get "in the mood".


Yes I do. I also just come up behind her and just kiss her.
I usually don't leave the house without giving her a kiss goodbye, nor do we generally come home without a kiss. I feel like she has lost her love for me sometimes or that she does not find me attractive. 



cao428 said:


> But the only other advice I can think of to give you is like a former person mentioned, maybe help with the children more so she won't feel so overwhelmed with what she has to do.


I do all of these things.
As I said before, I make sure that her emotional needs are met, I help around the house more then most men I know. Hell not many men in general help out as much as I do. 




carmaenforcer said:


> Hello* inabox*
> 
> I take notes on exact words exchanged, time/date, situation leading to event, etc. and bring it up at just the right moment. Timing is crucial in any successful maneuver and conditioning over a long period of time more than likely will be needed for optimal effectiveness and to achieve true lasting progress.
> It's not unlike the brain washing of P.O.W.s and if your start feeling bad about it at all, don't, just remember that they have been doing it to us for centuries, re-conditioning I mean.


Good to know I am not the only dude out there that analyzes things. 




Sharpie said:


> Maybe your wife is thinking more about your sex life than you know.


I have my doubts. If she is then she should express that more to me. 


Someone on here suggested sitting down here and talking to her about it. I have and I have made it clear that it effects me. In the end things uptick a bit for a little while and then gradually falls back to where it was before.

I honestly think that if we did not have children I probably would have sought a divorce. I mean we are in our 20's and its like this. Should I be expecting this to continue well into my 30's and 40's? How fair is that? Hell I haven't even considered how bad it will get once the mid-life hits her.


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## Rayne44 (Mar 7, 2008)

It does hurt. Have you tried just starting kissing her passionately without asking. Maybe sending little love notes throughout the day about how beautiful she is and what ud like to do. Its hard not to pressure her can u try romance instead n four play. Hope things get better for you.


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## fredfoxw28 (Jan 11, 2008)

I do not have an answer but more of an observation. My husband at times feels the way you have. Check out "still fighting about sex" that's me. Like one person said maybe your wife is thinking about sex more often then you think. I can say as a wife I think about sex all the time but not in a good way. Sex should come natural and unfortunately I am here to tell you it does not come natural for everyone. As people we have alot of hang ups, ego, religion, the way you were bought up has alot to do with sexual relationships. I think you need to go to counseling. We spend so much time trying to fix the other person and we're just as broken. I had to stop looking at what my husband was not doing and what I was doing to add to the frustration. I'm not saying it's perfect but it is way better then before. Maybe you can bring the list to the counselor, not to proove a point but maybe see what else is the problem. It's hard being a wife, you have to take care of the home, kids, husband and find time for yourself. If you are commited to your relationship and all else has failed try the counseling, atleast you know you have done everything possible.


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

I had a lot of time to think about this, and I want to amend some of my previous attitudes about this problem. I spoke with gf a bit more about this issue, and I think for me its at least shed some hope. I want to be better about this and give you the help you deserve without bleeding hate.

1) Showing your wife the stats is going to make her feel pressured and monitored. It will reduce sex to a chore. How would you like it if she had a chart for every time you left the seat up (or whatever) that proved you were worse than you claimed? You'd feel pretty darn bad, and probably resentful.

2) FORGET about what is "average" because that won't help you either. How would you like it if she had "proof" that the average man in your age bracket spent $20,000/year on jewelry for his wife (or something like that). Would that suddenly motivate you go start spending $20k on jewelry because that is average, or would you probably say something like "well that doesn't work here because A, B, C..." Arguing with the "Johnny gets more" backfires quickly, and can leave you WAYYYYY worse than you started.

3) This might be paydirt here: You said you initiated 14/16 times, that means she initiated 2/16 times. *What was different about those 2 times?* Was she initiating because she WANTED to, or was it just "I better do this to shut up him". I'm hoping the former, and if so, figure out why? Was she comfortable, or happy, or something that just changed the game entirely?

You're going to find you'll do a lot better if she WANTS it, than if she is just being forced to. Even if you get some in the short term, you just erode your relationship. Someone told me once that some people get so burned out on their partners that merely thinking of them is a total turnoff. Too much negativity and pressure associated therewith.

I don't believe all hope is lost, but it will be if something doesn't change. I'm also not saying she is totally blameless. I see a lot of martyr in you (I did this to make her happy, I did that to make her happy) and I know firsthand that being a martyr seldom achieves what you want. You might be able to guilt her into sex using that, but it will merely be compliance, not participation.

Best of luck.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Is this really you Chopblock? Good points. If I had a crystal ball, I'd say you are headed towards more sex in your near future  I am glad to hear you and your gf seem to be opening up to one another and working through this issue.


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

Yes its really me -- and gf has loosened up a LOT too. 3x in one month and counting. BIG difference. I forgot what it was like to feel this good.

I wish I could offer more help, cuz I'm not so sure I... "did" anything. I could say that she loosened up, or maybe I unconsciously changed, or maybe we both did -- I really don't know. She definitely took initiative when she started her exercising a few months ago, and that has made a big difference (I thought it was hopeless before). I really can't pinpoint a single turning point though.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

If you thought it was hopeless before, she was probably feeling even worse. The fact that she decided to do something about it has probably given her the confidence boost she needed. Any positive compliments at this point with how good she's looking will help fuel her desire to continue. I'm really glad to hear things are going well for you both


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Endorphins for the win!

Funny how good sex makes everything seem better.


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## emeraldblue (Jun 30, 2008)

another womans point of view--if my husband showed me all that data and was keeping track--it would do more than tick me off!!!(unless i missed something) why dont you put your energy into trying counseling with your wife......


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## Missy (Jul 11, 2008)

Ok so you are compiling the bad behaviors, but also compile the things that make you love her and why you are married to her. In these cases it is not about right and wrong but how to get the communication open more and stop pointing fingers. Start telling her the things that you love about her. Tell her how much you want to build your relationship stronger because you love this marriage (which it for the most part seems true). Try different things and spice things up. Dont stick to old routine!
-------------------
Missy~
Parenting, Marriage, Relationships and more
tripleaytche.com


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## Cindy (May 10, 2008)

Wow Chopblock, loved your answer, esp on the averages. Sooo true! (and congrats on the nooky!) 

I believe a lot of married couples seem to have this issue in one way or the other and I find my husband most attractive and sexy when he is not whining, *****ing, or kissing my butt b/c he wants sex. Same with husbands, you guys don't want to buy us flowers when we're *****ing about how you never pick up your socks, or whining that you aren't romantic...

I know you are frustrated with the "flowers, romance, kisses," answers b/c they don't work. You're doing them for sex, not b/c you feel the love or care about romance and your wife knows that. What she doesn't get, is that if she gives it up, you will feel the love and be more romantic, naturally. 

Both of you should drop the expectations. She's not going to jump in the sack no matter how much laundry you fold and you aren't going to be able to cuddle without thinking of jumping her bones. 

When you talk to her, get her attention by saying, "you know how when people cheat, the victim asks 'why didn't he just come to me and let me know it was that bad or that he wasn't happy', this is that time and this is that talk, it is that bad. I am unhappy in OUR MARRIAGE. I've done everything I know to do to help OUR MARRIAGE, WE need help." 

Then it's no longer about YOU just wanting to put out the fire in your pants or complaining about how many times here and there, which she's in denial about b/c so far it's YOUR problem. It's becomes about your marriage which you are BOTH responsible for.  Hopefully then she will see how it is her problem too and she can start using her powers for good, 

Hope this helps!


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

On another forum I belong to, someone said something VERY interesting about emotional arguments. The OP in this case is hoping that factual data will solve an emotional argument. It seems we are all in agreement that this tactic will yield the opposite effect.

Instead, use an EMOTIONAL stance to find a common ground. Its a lot like Cindy says, but I'm adding one extra thing: "Remember how during <difficult time> we were both yelling at each other and very short tempered? Well I'm afraid of being like that again, which will hurt our marriage. I want us to have a healthy balanced marriage, and be happy like we were during <good time>".

This calls up specific emotions, both bad and good, and uses them as a basis for comparison of where you might end up. If she remembers how bad that bad was, and how good the good was, then you are relating on a level that is shared. The current tactic puts you at odds because of the fact that you see no sex as a problem, and she does not. By framing what no sex leads to, you might have more success.

--What she doesn't get, is that if she gives it up, you will feel the love and be more romantic, naturally.--

I have to comment on this though. I do kind of feel like in my case (and this is supported by withholders on this board who came to the same realization) that I got VERRRRRRY lucky bc gf did seem to come to this realization, and things have been better. I almost feel like I got a win way too easy (though it wasn't easy at all getting here) because she did finally accept this truth.

Oh also, my personal opinion: don't use that preface "you know how when people cheat". I know that if gf started a sentence with that type of context, I would feel like I'm being threatened.


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## anotheryear (Jul 23, 2008)

My husband and I found the book "His Needs, Her Needs" helpful with a similar problem. 

I imagine there are things that would help her feel closer and more "in love" that she isn't getting. Maybe she hasn't thought about them but is missing them. Things like having you call her each day once mid day for no reason. Or maybe she just needs a lot more conversation time. That is the key for me...and I had no idea that is what was bothering me most until I read the book I mentioned above. Conversation helps me feel close so that I want to make love more. Otherwise, he is just a stranger to me. Also I had to be honest with him about the fact that his obesity was making it harder for me to get in the mood.

My guess with the score sheet is that it will lead to her making her own on something else...but maybe that is okay as it might open your eyes to something bothering her that is fixable.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Hi I am new here. What a wonderful forum this is! It is really great to be able to trace the progression of peoples problems, and see how they solved them.

I smiled when I saw the calendar thing because at one point my wife told me she was going write down in her diary every time we had sex. This was due to me saying we were not doing it very often, and her wanting to prove that I was wrong!

Anyway, we had a huge epiphany a few months ago, and she has become very hot and steamy with me. At one point it reached 3 times a day, but it has calmed down a bit now, mostly due to lack of time.

I have only in the last couple of weeks realised my part in reducing her desire for me, and I am still trying to process that information.

I am 41 and she is 46.


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## brad (Jul 31, 2008)

When i complained to my wife about a lack of sex I felt bad myself. I then told her I dont want to be asking for something. I want her to want it or I did not want it out of duty. That would really suck feeling like I am coercing her into something. The only point I see as a benefit with the journal is you can refute your wife saying your having more sex then actually is happening. I understand that. The other point to consider is why did the sex suddenly decline. a lot of women see sex as power. They engage in it to get what they want (that ring or kids) and then decline it also as a power play. It was never an issue when I had girfriends before my marriage. Women knew if they didnt participate with enthusiasm they would be shown the door. 

I asked my wife what I can do to help her. She told me patience. Well we had sex the last time march 15 (our wedding ann.). So I have stuck to the patience pledge. She also told me she was sick of talking about it. That sucks but I am also sticking to her desires. Lately I have felt her move towards me more. We went on a date sat. night for the first time since march 15 (another request of mine she has ignored). Right now I am being the model husband and I feel sincere about it. I stay at home, do a lot of chores and spend most of my time with our two kids. I give my wife nightly back rubs and do what I canfor her I feel something is missing though. 

For those who think I need to be more aggressive no worry. I am just playing the waiting game as she requested. In a couple of months I will approach the subject again. I will not live the rest of my life like this but am willing to wait. 

Us guys should not have to beg or coerce to have a healthy sex life.


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## justean (May 28, 2008)

we did 24 times in 2 weeks. i promise its not good having a high sex drive.
but inabox i like what you did. 
its called research and i found it very interesting.


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## CaryLeb (Jul 31, 2008)

Sex, or lack there of, is a big problem in many relationships. I somehow doubt that you will be able to increase your sexual relationship with your wife by showing her a comparative statistical analysis, especially when your trying to prove underperformance. Not only are you running the risk of annoying her but you may hurt her feelings in your efforts.
I'm sure you have tried everthing in the book from weekend getaways to seductive massages (RIGHT?). Now its time for you to look deeper which may mean counseling. 
In addition to being an intimate form of expression, sex is a measuring tool for all other types of emotions (or the absence of them) such as depression, stress, happiness, attraction, comfortability, etc.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

CaryLeb- 

Like I said, my wife was trying to prove Over-Performance 
But we sorted it out now


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## totalcpl (Aug 5, 2008)

Laughing...but crying and totally relating!! I have exactly the same problem!! The typical fight between my wife & I is over sex...or the lack thereof. Like your wife...she seemed to have any over estimation of our sex live and I did exactly the same thing...keeping a log file (I'm a math major) so I could prove to her that we only have sex 12-15 times per year and some years less. One year it was only 8 times.

For example...I keep notes on when we have sex and I initiate it, when we have sex and she initiates it and when I ask for it and she refuses. For example...a couple of weeks ago...I told her that 71% of the times I had asked for sex this year (2008) that she had refused me...then I got the dreaded, "I just don't love you anymore" statement from her.

Our problems go a lot deeper than sex...I've pushed her away for years emotionally while expecting to have an active sex live. I totally love her and feel extremely close to her when we make love; however, apparently she doesn't feel the same connection.

Does the "sex log" help your case...nah...not really. Sex is one thing...making love is another...sadly I've found out.

So...do like I'm doing now...work through relat5ionship issues first and hopefully the sex will follow!!

Good luck!!!!

PS: I just found this web site today and encouraged my wife to surf through it with me and see what clicks...perhaps y'all should do the same.


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## justean (May 28, 2008)

total cpl . sex and making love are different but taking these concepts of sex and mixing it up can have another profound effect.
and it can be a real turn on. 
i dont want to get in trouble on this site. but if you want to other version of sex . i dont mind telling you personally.


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