# What am I doing wrong in this sexless marriage?



## Agoodman (Sep 4, 2012)

I apologize in advance since my situation is probably a carbon copy of other men's sexless marriage. I am typing this to gather my thoughts and vent. If someone with experience can offer advice besides, "Go to a marriage counselor", that would be appreciated. Hopefully some women will read this and offer some insight as well. 

Here is a little about myself...
1. I have been with my wife since I was 19, married her after 5 years of dating, and we have two young kids. I am 36 now. 
2. We are living the dream of both having successful careers and we are living in a house we built. 
3. I consider myself good looking and muscular built based on feedback I've received over the years from flirty women. 
4. I do not smoke, do drugs, gamble, steal, etc. 
5. I have never cheated on my wife
6. I have never hit my wife or threatened to hit her. 
7. I take care of our home, inside and out. My wive does most of the chores inside the house. 
8. I am smart, I have common sense, a sense of humor, etc. etc. (this is starting to sound like a dating site add)

I can go on and on about myself, but I won't. Overall, I am the type of guy who listens to women complain about their husbands and I strive to be the perfect husband for my wife. Let me say I am not overly confident like I am Mr Perfect. I still have flaws, but overall, I think I rate myself as a pretty good husband. 

Here is my situation. My wife was never a real sexual person. We had sex quite often while dating in college, but nothing too crazy. As time went on, the sex went down some. We eventually married. I made the decision to marry her even though I was not completely sexually satisfied. My expectations of a satisfying sex life would be 2-3 times a week. I knew she had other great things to offer and sex was not everything. 

Fast forward several years in our marriage. We've had a great marriage. We've traveled, built our house, excelled in our careers, etc. The sex in our marriage did not go so well. It was at most a couple of times a month and that was it. When we tried to get pregnant it eventually got better for obvious reasons. I was happy because we did it regularly, sometimes more than once a day when she ovulated. When she was pregnant, I heard from several sources that wives get horny and want to have sex. Not the case with my wife. For 9 months during each pregnancy, we had very little if any sex. Certainly not during the first trimester. Maybe an occasional BJ, but less than 3 times in over 9 months. 

In between pregnancy, the sex went down to once every 6-8 weeks. Now we are at the point that I think we have had sex maybe 5 times in 2012 and our youngest delivered in 2010. There should be no excuses to why she does not want to have sex. 

It has been a steady decline over the years. I have tried talking to her over the years and she use to tell me why she did not want to have sex. She would tell me the following:

1. You are being pushy and that is a turn off....I react by letting her initiate and I back off. She never initiates. 
2. She has a lot to do around the house and she is tired in the evening....I help her out by doing a lot of the household stuff to help out. She has less to do, and there is no change. 
3. She is upset that I have unfinished projects around the house.....I bust my ass and finish the projects. She reacts by NO CHANGE. 

Over the years she has given various reasons and I have always changed for her and there is no change on her part. 

I compliment her whenever I can and try to be cute with her to put her in the mood. It does not seem to work anymore.

I am tired of being led on that sex may happen on some nights once she gets off the phone with whoever she is talking to. I wait in the living room and then notice she is off the phone and asleep in bed. I have noticed my wife has made it an art to avoid having sex. 

I have gone through phases in my emotions over the years....at first I was confident that I could fix the issue. Then I lost confidence because nothing worked. I then became moody and depressed about the lack of passion in our marriage. I am now angry at her for why she is doing this to me. I am mad because she has no interest in being with me. Yes, she says she loves me, but why does she seem to not care about how I feel. I try to talk to her at night about what we could do to make it better. I tell her how all this makes me feel and she is just silent in bed. I get mad at the fact that she gets upset with my attitude...I would not have this attitude if we had sex. 

Its the craziest thing. She does not have sex with me when I am perfect and charming. I eventually turn into super frustrated man (not angry and violent) and she uses that as an excuse for why she is turned off. 

I know this experience has changed me. It seems there is always a tenseness between us. I am moody around her. I don't like the person I have become (at times) because of this lack of passion. I know sex and love are not the same thing, but I feel I am not loved because my wife does not have sex with me. I feel like part of my responsibility as a husband is not being used. It makes me feel like less of a man. 

We've talked about my opinion that she may have some disorder (Hypo Active Sexual Desire Disorder or some hormonal issue). My wife agrees she may have some hormonal issue....Is she doing anything about it? No. I am frustrated because she is not doing anything about it. If some other facet of her health had an issue, she would jump all over it to fix it. I have told her I will go with her to talk to anyone, even marriage counseling. As of now, she claims she is going to as her doctor the next time she seems her in a few weeks. She has told me that in the past, but she has not asked her doctor. 

I do not want to divorce her because I believe in fixing things that are broken and not throwing them away.

Don't get me wrong, I have had thoughts of cheating and probably had the chance if I merely asked the person. I haven't because I know this will only makes things worse and will not solve the problem. I may innocently flirt with other women to fill some void for attention I am not getting from my wife. Is this healthy, certainly not. I know. 

I just want to have a healthy sex life with my wife. I want our marriage to be satisfying. Am I the only person experiencing this? What can I do?

Sorry for the convoluted thoughts and thanks for any suggestions.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

You are going to have to get down to brass tacks on this one. I was close to the same boat as you but I didn't let it get this bad or for this long. When I saw the handwriting on the wall I just laid (no pun intended) down the law. I was not going to live in a sexless marriage.

Don't be mean, don't yell and be absolutley serious. 

You see, an interesting thing happens in the mind of some women (alot of them). The better the husband, father and provider you are, the less attractive you become. It is the opposite of what you would intuitive believe the case to be. Once your wife believes she might lose you over the situation you will magically become more attractive.

Now heres the rub, you can't make the case unless you are absolutely committed to follow through. If you threaten and don't follow through she will totally lose whatever respect she has for you and then your the dreaded doormat.


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## Another Planet (Aug 8, 2012)

Maybe not but you might be a nice guy. Read "No more Mr. Nice guy" by Robert Glover. I am reading it now and within the first 15 pages I was like "oh **** I am in serious trouble".


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Her disorder is simple. She needs a certain amount of excitement/tension to feel desire. Having you constantly seeking her approval is a huge turnoff. 

Having you let her treat you badly and responding by trying "harder" is an even bigger turn off. 

Read married man sex life. 




Agoodman said:


> I apologize in advance since my situation is probably a carbon copy of other men's sexless marriage. I am typing this to gather my thoughts and vent. If someone with experience can offer advice besides, "Go to a marriage counselor", that would be appreciated. Hopefully some women will read this and offer some insight as well.
> 
> Here is a little about myself...
> 1. I have been with my wife since I was 19, married her after 5 years of dating, and we have two young kids. I am 36 now.
> ...


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## preets (Aug 29, 2012)

Being a lady I can understand your wife's problem. She could be ignorant towards sex because either she is too tired of kids and household works, or she is facing some monontonity in life, or some financial problem. You have to find out that why she is not interested in sex. If it is some medical problem then instead of waiting her go self to a gynae, take her to the docter and get her medication done. But if her problem is something else, then certainly you need to find out and until you both talk on this, nothing can be concluded. Okay, ask her indirectly something like what's her expectation from life, what's her aim, is she interested in outing, does she want to do something to change her routine life. These questions will help you understand as to what's her state of mind and accordingly you can plan your topic of discussion. Ask your wife to read some books on marriage and sex. Besides all this there are many herbal medicines available in market which enhances sex need, but beware of quacks. 

Everybody knows that knowledge is life, so ask your wife to read more and more on marriage and sex. Don't ask her to purchase books own, instead you gift her a few one by one on different ocassions. Lady's also love to receive surprise gifts, so gift her sexy lingeries, gowns, perfumes etc. whatever she love to have most. 

Don't hide your frustration with your wife that a normal sex life is a must for yours happy marriage. Let her be in fear that if she don't then you may go out. If she really loves you then she is definately try hard to come back to you on bed every night.

I have already handled these type of cases, if you want you can ask your wife contact me. I will find out her problem area and suggest a proper solution.

Good Luck!!

Preeti


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I would look at the hormonal issue. Is she taking hormonal birth control? After having my first son, my body simply could not tolerate artificial hormones anymore. I get/got every side affect on the label, including a total loss of libido when on the pill, the mini pill, depo provera, the ring, the patch and I'm not even going to bother trying the Mirena IUD because it has hormones too. 

Normally, I have a very healthy drive but if I take hormonal BC, it's nonexistent - seriously, no lustful thoughts/fantasies, NO DESIRE whatsoever, not even to... ahem, _please myself_.  I was like a female unich!

I don't know if that's her issue but it's worth ruling it out because it's terrible to go through that. I stopped taking hormonal B/C about four years ago and my libido went back to normal. 

We avoided pregnancy for well over three years just by me tracking my cycle and using condoms when I was close to ovulating... it worked really well until that one wine-filled night in December last year and the both of us got careless:slap:. 

After this kid's born, I'm going to try the copper IUD. I want something semi-permanent without having to get sterilized; just in case I want one more kid down the road. There are other non-hormonal options out there though...


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## Cupcake37 (Nov 19, 2011)

Hi,

I have just read your post and I can relate to exactly what you are saying. I could have written the majority of your words. I am the wife in the relaltionship with a husband who isn't interested in me and know exactly how you feel and what you are going through. I wish I could offer you some words of wisdom but I too am at a loss. I have two young children and feel trapped otherwise I know I would have left him. I kid myself that I can live like this for the children but it's getting worse. I am very very unhappy and lonely and feel unloved and unwanted.

I have come to the conslusion with my husband that he is asexual, he can literally go years without sex! Things have improved recently to once every 6-8 weeks!! Part of me has accepted that I will never change him and that is the way he is. Another part of me is this angry/evil /frustrated woman who wants a normal sex life with her husband and feel as if I am being denied. I try and focus on myself now, and my hobbies and keeping fit and try to block it out as much as I can but not always easy.

I am currently writing my husband a letter, I feel that if we talk about it then I will forget half of what I want to say. I am telling him that I want things to change and if they don't then I don't see us having a future together. I know it is harsh but I don't think it's fair what he is doing to me. I think you need to be completely honest with your wife and tell her the effect this having on you. I look at my husband and I think he is oblivious to my needs!

I don't think you are doing anything wrong you sound like the perfect husband. I can't imagine being married to man who does what you do for your wife, she is very lucky. I too felt that there was somehting wrong with me for my husband not to want me and spent years trying to figure out why he wasn't interested, what did I have to do to make him want me? Then I have realised that it's not me it's him.

Anyway good luck and let me know how you get on, I will be watching this thread with interest

Take care
XX


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Don't look at the hormones.
Don't look for disorders.

That's her job to figure out.

Your job is to be certain how it is you want to live, and then live that way.


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## pheobe (Sep 4, 2012)

I feel your pain and frustration. Like cupcake, I am also a wife, living in a little to no sex marriage. I've been deadly honest with my H, explaining how I am so deeply effected by his rejection, but to no avail. He still has a sex drive, because once a week, he "directs" me into a position to perform oral sex on him. Unfortunately, I have absolutely no advice... just wanted to let you know that you aren't alone in feeling rejected.


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## samtravis (Aug 30, 2012)

Having sex 2-3 times a week is not asking much. Is you wife aware that we men need sexual release every few days.. What are you doing for your sexual release? Do you masturbate? Does she know you masturbate and is she fine with it?

Maybe try to be more aggresive and demand for sex, maybe she would like it.Maybe masturbate before her once, she may feel bad.

Ask her if she is not in mood, is she fine with your penis using her vagina for release


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## pheobe (Sep 4, 2012)

***It's not just "you men" that need sex, btw!! ***


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## Momman (Sep 4, 2012)

Being a female, I can see both sides of the problem. I don't think you are doing anything wrong, but it is impossible for any of us to know, since only you and she are privy to your whole private life. If she never really wanted sex to begin with, then she may have had a hormonal or other physical problem all along and just had sex to keep her husband happy. 

If she used to like sex or at least participate fully, then changed later, it could be a problem with the marriage or it could be that she is now going through hormonal changes that mess with her libido. 

When we were first married, I liked sex alright, and it was frequent with us. however, over the years, work, kids, running a home, etc., took a toll on how often. I was just too tired. However, it was still several times a week. 

Now, I have no libido at all, and I love my husband like crazy. We have four beautiful children, a grandchild, and have lived a wonderful life. We still have sex, because he wants it, but it isn't the same. I don't want to have it, and it is hard to be enthusiastic when it becomes a chore you have to do. Now, let me explain that he is a good lover, and always wants to please me first. I simply don't want the stimulation any longer. This is a problem for him, because he can't understand why I don't want to have orgasms when I can reach them. 

I believe mine is hormonal, and am seeing a functional medicine doctor to find out what is keeping me from desire at all. She is running tests on things like premenopause and adrenal fatigue. 

I know it is hard on you to have a woman who doesn't want sex, and for Cupcake, too, for having a man who doesn't want it. However, everywhere on this site I see people stating how they don't feel it is fair that the other spouse is holding out on them when they have needs that should be met. If you are on the other side of that, you would realize that the non-interested partner feels resentment that you aren't meeting his or her need to NOT have the demand of sex. It is truly an unfair situation to everyone. Instead of thinking they don't desire you or love you or care about you, consider they do love you and are about you, but just don't have the need or desire for sex at all, with anyone. It is something that is broken and they don't know how to fix. 

I will never want sex as much as my husband, who would love twice a day. However, I would like to be able to actually say I want it a few times a week. I am hoping the functional medicine doctor will give me treatment I can use to improve my health and sex life. 

I am inclined to think, if your wife never really wanted sex, it was either emotional (like trauma as a youth or being told it is naughty when she was young), or it is actually physical. Either one could be it. I am sure she loves you. If it is emotional, talking to a therapist would probably help her a lot, but it would take some time. If it is physical, as I feel mine is, the key is to find a sympathetic doctor who will try to work with her to find out what is causing her to have a non-existent libido. 

By the way, I am just 49 and we have been married 23 years. We dance together, hold hands in public, and otherwise embarrass our children. The love is still there for us. I know you said the tension is there between you now, but was there affection there before. Did you hold hands, touch, joke and tease each other? If so, the love was probably there, and she doesn't know what to do. I do think that it is wrong that she suggests that you will have sex after her phone call, or after she finishes something, and then never follows through. That just adds more anger, which is something she probably doesn't realize makes it worse. 

Whatever happens, I wish you the best. Try to understand that she may be as lost as you, and embarrassed, which might cause her to be defensive and push the blame on you for pressuring her, asking for too much, turning her off with your demands, etc. She may just not have a clue as to how to fix this, so she hopes it will just go away as you both get older. Good luck and best wishes to you both.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

I wish your wife could see this post.

If she cared about you at all, it would sadden her to see what her rejection has done to you.

I don't think the husband's/wive's who do this truly understand how it can destroy the soul, confidence and self-esteem of someone.

Why would someone who claims they love you want to destroy how you feel about yourself?

I will never understand it.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Momman said:


> However, everywhere on this site I see people stating how they don't feel it is fair that the other spouse is holding out on them when they have needs that should be met. If you are on the other side of that, you would realize that *the non-interested partner feels resentment that you aren't meeting his or her need to NOT have the demand of sex.* It is truly an unfair situation to everyone. Instead of thinking they don't desire you or love you or care about you, consider they do love you and are about you, but just don't have the need or desire for sex at all, with anyone. It is something that is broken and they don't know how to fix.


Sorry, I have to disagree with this. Expecting to have sex within marriage is a pretty normal expectation. While I am sure they exist, I don't know any spouses who get married with the expectation that there will be no sex. In a normal, non-emergancy situation (that is, no medical reasons exisiting that prevent sex), to feel resentment that a spouse is not wanting to meet your "need" to have a no-sex marriage is unreasonable.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

I dont think she said having an expectation wasnt "normal"..I think what she meant is regardless that its a "normal expectation " to 'have sex" in marriage..the person who has lost all desire has a "physical need" to not have sex..and that isnt something they are choosing.You can still "choose" to engage in sex..but it doesnt change the person with a lost libidos true desire is to not have sex..Just like you cant change your desire to want to have sex..

I think the resentment is more about the one who has the desire will get angry at the person who doesnt and they honest to God are not deliberatley CHOOSING to have NO libido..


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

She should be having sex with you.

No excuses.

I am an asexual woman (no desire) but still enjoy making love to my husband, eagerly participate, have fun because he NEEDS it & we both try to meet each other's needs.

JMO


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> I dont think she said having an expectation wasnt "normal"..I think what she meant is regardless that its a "normal expectation " to 'have sex" in marriage..the person who has lost all desire has a "physical need" to not have sex..and that isnt something they are choosing.You can still "choose" to engage in sex..but it doesnt change the person with a lost libidos true desire is to not have sex..Just like you cant change your desire to want to have sex..
> 
> I think the resentment is more about the one who has the desire will get angry at the person who doesnt and they honest to God are not deliberatley CHOOSING to have NO libido..


My point is that it is unreasonable to change the dynamic in such a huge way and then feel resentment because the other person does not just go along wiht it. I got married with the expectation that we would have conversations. If because of depression I decided that I just did not want to talk to my wife any more, I can't see how I get to be resentful that she does not take my decision well.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Momman said:


> However, everywhere on this site I see people stating how they don't feel it is fair that the other spouse is holding out on them when they have needs that should be met. If you are on the other side of that, you would realize that the non-interested partner feels resentment that you aren't meeting his or her need to NOT have the demand of sex. It is truly an unfair situation to everyone. Instead of thinking they don't desire you or love you or care about you, consider they do love you and are about you, but just don't have the need or desire for sex at all, with anyone. It is something that is broken and they don't know how to fix.


I agree that not all spouses who withhold sex, or want to withhold sex, are heartless and cruel. However, it is a mistake to equate the need for sex inside marriage with the need to avoid sex.

The first is natural, typical, and expected. The second is not.

If your children got hungry at dinnertime, you would feed them. You would do this regardless of how much you wanted to. Even if you felt that you had a need to avoid cooking, you would recognize that their needs trumped yours.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Goodman 
As you already know, I the direct approach to addressing your sex life is a train wreck and actually makes it worse. 

Personally I am a beautiful cookbook guy so I am going to share some recipes with you. No guarantees other than this one: these recipes will be healthy for you and your marriage. As to your sex life they may or may not help because the one wildcard in the equation is your ability to manage your own emotions. The recipes are not randomly ordered. The most important ingredients and steps are listed first. 

Ingredients:
1. Healthy lifestyle
2. High Level of self awareness
3. Good understanding of your marital dynamic
4. Increased level of conscious choices to improve your marital dynamic 
5. Willingness to communicate without speaking 


Steps:
0. Do not discuss your self improvement program with your wife. This is for you, but not yet one more attempt to seek mommy's approval 
1. Testosterone driving exercise program
- lots of upper body strength training 
- enough cardiovascular for an endorphine baseline (3-4) runs a week 
2. Schedule enough sleep, fatigue increases emotional volatility
3. Emotional self assessment 
- what are your typical anger/sadness / frustration / happiness triggers
- what causes you to have emotionally negative interactions with your wife? 
4. Identify the problems with your dynamic with your W:
- don't ask her questions, learn to watch her body language and listen to her tone 
- read the 5 love languages - what are hers
- read married man sex life
5. Assess the level of respect or disrespect she shows you
6. Observe how often she initiates loving acts towards you, compared to how often you initiate 
7. How does she respond when you initiate hugs, touch, saying I love you, but comments? Happy / responds in kind, neutral, irritated or indifferent
8. How often does she reach out to you when you are apart via calls/text/email? 





Remain fully in control of your emotions when in your wife's presence. 

It is possible to improve your sex life but you are going to actually have to define and enforce boundaries. And you are going to have to understand why your wife avoids sex with you.


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## Momman (Sep 4, 2012)

Thanks for the support, dallasapple. You are right. I did not say I came into the marriage expecting no sex. I am glad someone paid attention to that part of the post. As a matter of fact, if you read my post, we had a normal sex life until about 9 years ago, which is when I went to a doctor the first time about menopause, who promptly told me that I was too young for that to be a problem. I waited years before I tried again, and have found someone sympathetic to the problem who is listening and trying to determine the cause. I did NOT enter the marriage expecting "no sex". In fact, I expected to be having no problems with it until I suddenly did. I love my husband, and would never want to deliberately hurt him. However, when you have no desire for sex, you cannot win. If you have sex for him (or her, as it happens both ways), you don't really want or enjoy it. You go through the motions for them. However, they can tell you are just going through the motions, and they don't understand why you don't want them and want to participate energetically. Truth is, you don't even touch yourself. It isn't as if you don't want them. You just don't want sex at all. It holds no appeal to you, even causing some people feelings of dread that they still have to do it. If you don't give them sex, they are resentful that they don't get enough. There is no way to make both parties happy when one can't get enough, and one would rather not have it at all. It is not a choice one would make willingly. Instead, I know what I feel, and I no longer enjoy having sex, but I wish I knew why it happened. If it is hormonal/physical, there is a reason that can be addressed to make it better. If I didn't care about my husband's feelings, I would not be seeking a solution, would I? Those of us without a libido know it is not supposed to be normal, believe me. We're just at a loss as to how to fix it. As I said, many of us go through the motions for the benefit of our spouse, but they can tell that is all we are doing. 

Maybe this will help some of the readers on here understand how this happens. My husband ate eggs every day as a kid for breakfast. He loved them, and ate 3 every morning. One day, in his early teens, he woke up and didn't like eggs anymore. He hasn't touched an egg that was not part of a cake or pastry in more than 30 years. He now doesn't want any part of them. That is how it was with me. I had no problems with sex. It was a part of our married life. It was normal for us. When I was 39, it started to be less appealing, but I thought we were just getting older and didn't think about it much. Within a year, I realized I didn't just not think about it, I didn't want it. 

Now I know that is a simplistic explanation, but it is accurate. Can my husband eat an egg if he has to? Sure he can, but they turn him off, so it would be forcing it down. Can I have sex? Sure I can, but it holds no appeal, so I force myself to do it. Same thing. 

Why did he love them and then just stop eating them? Even he doesn't know. Why was sex a normal thing for me in my marriage, and now I don't want it? Don't know that either. But I am trying to find out.

By the way, we still have sex 3-4 times a week, because he wants it. Not because I do. I still resent having to have it when I don't want it, but I know he still has desires, and as I said before, I still love him. 

The original post was about a man whose woman did not want sex and never provides it for him. He was trying to glean some information as to how this could happen. As a woman, I tried to give some insight as to how she might feel. However, unlike me, it seems from the post that her interest was never really there. If her problem is hormonal, it could be the same problem as me, but if it isn't, it might be more psychological. Maybe she would be willing to explore both possibilities if she understood she isn't being accused of holding out on purpose just to hurt him. It sounds like she might get on the defensive if she feels like she is being blamed. 

Again, good luck to the OP. I hope it works out for you both.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> My point is that it is unreasonable to change the dynamic in such a huge way and then feel resentment because the other person does not just go along wiht it.


the point is the person who loses desire didnt "change anything " it HAPPENED...you dont wake up one day and go ..today I have decided I DONT have any sexual desires..

And there is not "going along with it or not going along with it"..It just IS..

If I get cancer...I GET cancer..my husband can't say "Im not "going along with that" ..or lets say he CAN say that ..but it doesnt change the fact I HAVE cancer..I didnt choose to get cancer and I can not simply "will it away"..and he cant "talk me out " of having it...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Momman said:


> Thanks for the support, dallasapple. You are right. I did not say I came into the marriage expecting no sex. I am glad someone paid attention to that part of the post. As a matter of fact, if you read my post, we had a normal sex life until about 9 years ago, which is when I went to a doctor the first time about menopause, who promptly told me that I was too young for that to be a problem. I waited years before I tried again, and have found someone sympathetic to the problem who is listening and trying to determine the cause. I did NOT enter the marriage expecting "no sex". In fact, I expected to be having no problems with it until I suddenly did. I love my husband, and would never want to deliberately hurt him. However, when you have no desire for sex, you cannot win. If you have sex for him (or her, as it happens both ways), you don't really want or enjoy it. You go through the motions for them. However, they can tell you are just going through the motions, and they don't understand why you don't want them and want to participate energetically. Truth is, you don't even touch yourself. It isn't as if you don't want them. You just don't want sex at all. It holds no appeal to you, even causing some people feelings of dread that they still have to do it. If you don't give them sex, they are resentful that they don't get enough. There is no way to make both parties happy when one can't get enough, and one would rather not have it at all. It is not a choice one would make willingly. Instead, I know what I feel, and I no longer enjoy having sex, but I wish I knew why it happened. If it is hormonal/physical, there is a reason that can be addressed to make it better. If I didn't care about my husband's feelings, I would not be seeking a solution, would I? Those of us without a libido know it is not supposed to be normal, believe me. We're just at a loss as to how to fix it. As I said, many of us go through the motions for the benefit of our spouse, but they can tell that is all we are doing.
> 
> Maybe this will help some of the readers on here understand how this happens. My husband ate eggs every day as a kid for breakfast. He loved them, and ate 3 every morning. One day, in his early teens, he woke up and didn't like eggs anymore. He hasn't touched an egg that was not part of a cake or pastry in more than 30 years. He now doesn't want any part of them. That is how it was with me. I had no problems with sex. It was a part of our married life. It was normal for us. When I was 39, it started to be less appealing, but I thought we were just getting older and didn't think about it much. Within a year, I realized I didn't just not think about it, I didn't want it.
> 
> ...


I read your whole post. I never assumed that you did not go into your marriage assuming no sex. My point was that to equate your resentment over your husband wanting sex to his resentment over you changing the terms of the marriage is not fair. The party being told that the agreement will now be fundamentally changed will always have more resentment, as they having the change imposed upon them. This is regardless of whether it is sex, discussion, employment, or child care. If I wake up one morning and decide to quit my job and get a new one at minimum wage so that I can tend to my gardent, my stay at home wife has the right to a lot of resentment because I have really changed our agreement. I don't see me getting to have much resentment because she does not support me, even though my need for a less stressful life is completely valid.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> As I said, many of us go through the motions for the benefit of our spouse, but they can tell that is all we are doing.



Not only can they tell thats what you are doing..but they know BEFOREHAND you dont want to or "need to" you dont have the desire ...Because if its an "issue" that not very temporary then its been DISCUSSED and if the discussions are honest they KNOW you are doing it for them before you "go through the motions" in the first place...that doesnt magically change during the actual act..that 'knowledge" even is there even if you "do your best" to have some trace of faked enthusiam its "for them" and they know it...Plus they have SEEN and experienced the 'real deal" ..WITH YOU so the cats out of the bag..

Its like I can "tell " you didnt really want that ..or "I know you really didnt want that "..O.K then what?Sorry I dont know how to fool you well enough?

Serioulsy the ONLY thing until you figure out if there is a "solution" to bring back desire a person with very little or NO desire can do ??IS DO IT for them ..thats the ONLY satifaction the one with no deisre can even have actually is that they "took care of' the other ones NEED for SEX...then that very idea that its for them is THEN the complaint..No matter what the one with no desire can NEVER win even if they force themselves to "do it".In a nutshell you are demonized for something you didnt "choose" which is no desire..Its no better than demonizing someone for having desire..


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> the point is the person who loses desire didnt "change anything " it HAPPENED...you dont wake up one day and go ..today I have decided I DONT have any sexual desires..
> 
> And there is not "going along with it or not going along with it"..It just IS..
> 
> If I get cancer...I GET cancer..my husband can't say "Im not "going along with that" ..or lets say he CAN say that ..but it doesnt change the fact I HAVE cancer..I didnt choose to get cancer and I can not simply "will it away"..and he cant "talk me out " of having it...


But cancer is something concrete that you spouse can understand and work through with you. 

To get up one day and say I have no sexual desire so no more sex in our marriage is not the same. There is no explanation, nothing to work on or through. Even if completely true, the spouse is left with nothing. Again, going back to my example of depression and not talking, would that be acceptable? I don't think it would be.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> My point was that to equate your resentment over your husband wanting sex to his resentment over you changing the terms of the marriage is not fair


But how did she 'change the terms"?

Thats like saying upon marraige the "terms were" to have children ..then finding out you due to NO choice of your own can NOT have children ...and saying they 'changed the terms of marriage" by finding out they are unable..You are willing to adopt even ..but saying NO thats not the terms thats not the agreement..Then shaming them becasue they are infertile..


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Serioulsy the ONLY thing until you figure out if there is a "solution" to bring back desire a person with very little or NO desire can do ??IS DO IT for them ..thats the ONLY satifaction the one with no deisre can even have actually is that they "took care of' the other ones NEED for SEX...then that very idea that its for them is THEN the complaint..No matter what the one with no desire can NEVER win even if they force themselves to "do it".In a nutshell you are demonized for something you didnt "choose" which is no desire..Its no better than demonizing someone for having desire..


I agree with this. As a HD, I had to learn to accept this gift from my wife. Sometimes, sex was just for me. She had sex because she loved me and knew it was something I needed. I learned to accept it and not pressure her into making it something that she did not want. I stopped pressuring her into trying to get into it. Interestingly enough, by bakcing off in that respect, she has been much more into it even when it starts off just for me. She seems to feel freer to go with it.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> But cancer is something concrete that you spouse can understand and work through with you.


LOSS of libido is "concrete"..its NOT a conspiracy that husbands and wives are all getting together in the "I choose to be sexually dysfunctional club" THAT sounds like FUN..and Im evil and cruel great way to excerszie that..GREAT hobby!


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## Momman (Sep 4, 2012)

Dallasapple, you are again right. No, we don't wake up and say, "Hey, I think I will decide never to have a sexual desire again." It just, as you said, happens. We are often as upset by it as anyone else. I mean, I am a wife and a mother, and suddenly, I don't want to have sex? Who would consciously make that decision if they were happy having sex before? And we often don't change the dynamic at all. I still have sex. I simply don't have any desire for it, not even to please myself. To PHTlump and Tall Average Guy, I never said I expect my spouse to go along with my "decision" to not have sex. First, I didn't make a decision to not have sex. I still have it. I didn't make a "decision" to have no desire. That just happened. I do recognize that he has needs, and I try to meet them as much as I can, but that doesn't change my feelings about it. I don't expect there to be no sex, because I am aware that not everyone feels as I do. However, I do know that many people do have this condition, and it is real. 

Tall Average Guy, if you had depression, you would not "decide" not to have conversations with your wife. You might not be able to function well enough to have those conversations, and hopefully, your loving wife would be supportive during your illness. That is like saying if you expected, during your marriage, to take long walks with your wife, but because you broke your leg you decided not to walk with her anymore, you would not expect her to take that well. 

As far as "one is natural, typical and expected- the other is not". Of course it is not, but that doesn't change the feeling. Would I feed my children if they were hungry and I didn't want to cook?:scratchhead: Sure I would, just like I have sex with my spouse when I don't want to. We all make sacrifices for the ones we love. It doesn't change how we feel about it, though. I had a 103.5 fever on Christmas eve and a pile of presents to wrap. Worked until 3:30am wrapping, and could not get off the couch on Christmas morning. I did it for my children, but did I like it? The real issue here is, for those who feel no desire, no enjoyment for sex, but who want to or remember when they did desire and enjoy it, how do we fix it? What has happened to us that causes us to not want sex any longer? Why did it happen? Those of us who care about our marriage want to know how to fix the problem. :scratchhead:


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## Momman (Sep 4, 2012)

When you have no sex drive at all but decide to have sex with your spouse for him or her, you are not changing the terms of the marriage agreement, which, by the way, is for better or for worse. You are still providing sex. The spouse, however, knows it isn't your desire fueling it, but you trying to please him or her. Some spouses can't accept that. Tall Average Guy understands that his wife is sometimes giving of herself when she doesn't feel any need of her own. I do the same thing. This is not a conspiracy where spouses have gotten together to decide they no longer want to have a libido so they can punish their spouse for something, which makes no sense if you love your spouse. 

As I said, I am having a second visit with a functional doctor. I will try to remember to return here with how it all turns out. I am interested to know if there is a true explanation for my loss of desire. Maybe my exploration will help others, too. 

Best of luck to all of you, on either side of the issue. It affects us all in some manner.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> It just, as you said, happens. We are often as upset by it as anyone else. I mean, I am a wife and a mother, and suddenly, I don't want to have sex? Who would consciously make that decision if they were happy having sex before?


The cruel mean evil people..who LOVE to ruin thier marriages (not make their spouse unhappy but make themselves unhappy TOO) ..Plus its a "bragging right" YOU get to say ...I dont have any desire to have sex..Im a FREAK ya'll LOOK AT ME Im sexually dyfunctional..I have zero desire! YAY!!!

Thats who..

The men who have loss of desire are SOO proud of themselves RARELY will you even hear them speak..they are snicering in the corner evilly laughing becasue they did the "bait and switch" got thier couple of kids and the comfy house..

Women just tend to get more out of OPENLY basking in the glory of beign selfish frigid dead fish evil trickers..USERS who LOVE to "torture" the one they love..

NOT...


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> As I said, I am having a second visit with a functional doctor. I will try to remember to return here with how it all turns out. I am interested to know if there is a true explanation for my loss of desire. Maybe my exploration will help others, too.


Please do..I respect your honesty and I wish you and your husband all the best and hopefully LOTS of mutually desired and pleasurable sex for both of you in the near future!

GodSpeed to you !


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Momman said:


> As far as "one is natural, typical and expected- the other is not". Of course it is not, but that doesn't change the feeling. Would I feed my children if they were hungry and I didn't want to cook?:scratchhead: Sure I would, just like I have sex with my spouse when I don't want to. We all make sacrifices for the ones we love. It doesn't change how we feel about it, though. I had a 103.5 fever on Christmas eve and a pile of presents to wrap. Worked until 3:30am wrapping, and could not get off the couch on Christmas morning. I did it for my children, but did I like it? The real issue here is, for those who feel no desire, no enjoyment for sex, but who want to or remember when they did desire and enjoy it, how do we fix it? What has happened to us that causes us to not want sex any longer? Why did it happen? Those of us who care about our marriage want to know how to fix the problem. :scratchhead:


Did you resent your children for it?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Momman said:


> When you have no sex drive at all but decide to have sex with your spouse for him or her, you are not changing the terms of the marriage agreement, which, by the way, is for better or for worse. You are still providing sex. The spouse, however, knows it isn't your desire fueling it, but you trying to please him or her. Some spouses can't accept that. Tall Average Guy understands that his wife is sometimes giving of herself when she doesn't feel any need of her own. I do the same thing. This is not a conspiracy where spouses have gotten together to decide they no longer want to have a libido so they can punish their spouse for something, which makes no sense if you love your spouse.
> 
> As I said, I am having a second visit with a functional doctor. I will try to remember to return here with how it all turns out. I am interested to know if there is a true explanation for my loss of desire. Maybe my exploration will help others, too.
> 
> Best of luck to all of you, on either side of the issue. It affects us all in some manner.


I think it would be wonderful if you did share. That you are searching for the reason would go along way in my book (and I hope your husband appreciates it). I wish you luck.

To often, the HD does not see any effort, so it appears to them that their LD spouse is just fine with things. They may vocalize that they wish they wanted more sex, but too often it appears like they are not really doing anything about it. On one hand, since the HD spouse is the one that does not like things, I understand how it falls on them to make changes on find a solution. On the other hand, when you LD spouse is not doing anything to change things, it is hard not to feel like your LD spouse is happy with how things are.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Momman said:


> If you are on the other side of that, you would realize that the non-interested partner feels resentment that you aren't meeting his or her need to NOT have the demand of sex.





dallasapple said:


> .the person who has lost all desire has a "physical need" to not have sex..and that isn't something they are choosing.



Someone help out a stupid thick-headed male here.... 

My wife is one of a minority of women whose libido went absolutely through the roof at the onset of perimeno. 

There are support groups for women with this condition. Most of them say it is extremely unpleasant. They say it's worse than hunger. They say functioning at work is difficult because they can't stop thinking about sex. They say working with male colleagues is hard because they can't stop looking at them and having prurient thoughts. They say it's almost impossible to sleep at night and even their dreams are sexual when they do sleep. (Welcome to the private little hell of most young men....)

So I certainly understand about lack of need. I'm not twenty-five anymore. If I didn't run twenty+ miles a week, and eat certain foods, I would never be able to keep up with her. I suppose I could be resentful, given the fact that she had zero sympathy for me when we were younger and the situation was reversed. Life is cruel. 

But I've always thought that needs are defined by the person who is *in need*. If my wife is hungry, I feed her. If her neck or shoulders or feet are sore, I massage them. When she needs to talk, I listen. When she's sad, I hold her. When she's tense, I open a bottle of wine and put on a 'feel good' movie.

It doesn't matter if I'm not hungry sore, lonely, sad, tense or depressed myself. Absence of need is in fact the exact opposite condition described by the word, 'Need' In lexical semantics, words describing that state would actually be antonyms of the word, 'Need' 

Now if someone were to say that constant nagging for sex interferes with a real need, like one's need for relaxation or peace and quiet, that would be one thing. Other than that though, I'm really curious how a word like, 'Need' may legitimately be spun to mean its exact opposite.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> On the other hand, when you LD spouse is not doing anything to change things, it is hard not to feel like your LD spouse is happy with how things are.


Consider the element of "shame" which is MORE accepted for a man than for a woman too..So it may be more like 'happy to ignore" rather than "happy with how things are"..

I mean look around..IN marriage specifically (not just beign a sex pumped up permiscuous person who doesnt CARE who they are bloinking) is CELEBRATED Women who go on and on how they cant get enough and men they are "normal" ..and every body CHEERS and some are "jealous they "wish they had a husband /wife" like that ..HOT sex romance adn love all intertwined..

For those men and women that its nto like that..they dont "feel that" ..its nto abotu beign "happy with how things are" ..I would say more its more like looking across a LONG seemingly impossible to swim body of water onto an island where you can see the party is going on ..havign NO CONFIDENCE you can make the distance on top of the fact swimming it means SHARKS OUT for blood and meat will go after you ..

Delving into there is something WRONG with how your sexual self works mind or body or both ..Istn so easy to "jump into " ..you dont get a lot of support as you can see around here ..ALL or MOST sympathy goes to the one that "cant get enough" whos being "denied.."

And its NOT helpful..Like telling someone whos is clinically depressed to "snap out of it" ...Some choose suicide..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> But I've always thought that needs are defined by the person who is in need. If my wife is hungry, I feed her. I


So which one of you has little to no need for sex? You?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Someone help out a stupid thick-headed male here....


O.K ..do YOU have almost or NO need for sex?Has YOUR desire almost disappeared and for no reason that you know of?

Your talking about your wifes INCREASED libido..Not your sudden DECREASE ..Or have you ?Had a decrease in normal libido functioning?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> It doesn't matter if I'm not hungry sore, lonely, sad, tense or depressed myself.


Did you call your self a dumb male?LOL!!...O.K it MATTERS to ME no matter how HORNY I am that my husband ISNT or hes sore tense depressed..My husband isnt a VIBRATOR replacement I consider him over MY sexual needs..

Im NOT impressed with your wife that her "sex needs" overide your feelings physically or emotionally..your situation sounds abusive.She sounds selfish...But havign said that if you DONT mind I dont know why you are mentioning it at all..

Its probably because you prefer sex your self and have a desire for it to HELP with sadness soreness tensness..and "lonliness"..

Its like the guys who say "I dont mind if my wife rapes me"..Well HELLO if you "dont mind" Its NOT RAPE ...DUH!


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> So which one of you has little to no need for sex? You?


At this stage in life, my 'Need' is absolutely miniscule compared to hers. But again, that is not a need in its own right. Lack of need is the exact opposite of what the word, 'Need' describes.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Consider the element of "shame" which is MORE accepted for a man than for a woman too..So it may be more like 'happy to ignore" rather than "happy with how things are"..
> 
> I mean look around..IN marriage specifically (not just beign a sex pumped up permiscuous person who doesnt CARE who they are bloinking) is CELEBRATED Women who go on and on how they cant get enough and men they are "normal" ..and every body CHEERS and some are "jealous they "wish they had a husband /wife" like that ..HOT sex romance adn love all intertwined..


Sorry, but not buying this. There are a ton of jokes about sex being over at marriage and the like. It is accepted that sex declines with children and age, particularly among women. It may be this way for some individuals, but I can't see blaming this on society.



> For those men and women that its nto like that..they dont "feel that" ..its nto abotu beign "happy with how things are" ..I would say more its more like looking across a LONG seemingly impossible to swim body of water onto an island where you can see the party is going on ..havign NO CONFIDENCE you can make the distance on top of the fact swimming it means SHARKS OUT for blood and meat will go after you ..
> 
> Delving into there is something WRONG with how your sexual self works mind or body or both ..Istn so easy to "jump into " ..you dont get a lot of support as you can see around here ..ALL or MOST sympathy goes to the one that "cant get enough" whos being "denied.."


Again, I am not seeing it. There is a lot of sympathy for working with your partner to meet both parties needs. Shutting down because it is too hard, however, does not.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Sorry, but not buying this.


I wasnt selling anything..buy the truth or reject it..Your choice..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Again, I am not seeing it.


Sorry you cant see reality or truth..


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Human beings control and create all their thoughts and feelings.

Or course having "no libido" is a choice that a person makes.

Just like feeling sexual is a choice someone makes. 

The question a person has to ask is WHY did I make that choice.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> And its NOT helpful..Like telling someone whos is clinically depressed to "snap out of it" ...Some choose suicide..


I have never advocated that they "just get over it." I do think that merely saying I no longer want it and resent that you want it, with nothing more, is a non-starter, at least for me. 

If my wife said that to me, and was not willing to work figuring out a solution for both of us, I don't think my marriage would last.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> At this stage in life, my 'Need' is absolutely miniscule compared to hers. But again, that is not a need in its own right. Lack of need is the exact opposite of what the word, 'Need' describes.


Its not "lack of need" then ..its just more than you need..


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Meanwhile, Agoodman is scratching his head thinking "What the f did I start in TAM???"

A key part of this is that he HAS tried to address it with his wife and got the silent treatment. He has suggested marriage counseling and that didn't fly. His wife said she'd talk to her doctor but hasn't done that in the past and he doesn't expect it to happen in the future.

MMSL and the 180 are his only options (unless he wants to watch us all bash each other for his own amusement).


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Hicks said:


> Human beings control and create all their thoughts and feelings.
> 
> Or course having "no libido" is a choice that a person makes.
> 
> ...


Bull ****...I have children and grandchilren ...they do NOT create ther own feelings..

They are LITERALY firgthened ..caught off gaurd..SHOCKED..They "like or dont like" certain things..they arent "choosing" it unless its avoding that which causes them BAD feeligns mentally or physically..

If you deny that?You should never have children..


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## Momman (Sep 4, 2012)

To Tall Average Guy, no I didn't resent my kids, but I didn't resent my husband either. I resented the situation I was in. I try never to resent a person, as they are usually not trying to hurt me, even if it does. Better to resent inanimate things to people you care about.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Momman said:


> To Tall Average Guy, no I didn't resent my kids, but I didn't resent my husband either. I resented the situation I was in. I try never to resent a person, as they are usually not trying to hurt me, even if it does. Better to resent inanimate things to people you care about.


Excatly..its liek resenting a child that SHOULD by reaasonble standards be able to SPEAK many words but they cant..And BERATING them becasue they arent like "normal kids thier age"..


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Im NOT impressed with your wife that her "sex needs" overide your feelings physically or emotionally..your situation sounds abusive.She sounds selfish..


Thank you!

You can spin anything negatively if you have a mind to. And it really sounds like you have a mind to. I don't know what has led you to this place, but I'm truly sorry about it whatever it was. 

You can view your partner's needs as selfish if you want to. You can be dismissive of them. You can villainize their motivations. You can resort to pejoratives. You can even redefine simple English words like, 'Need' in an attempt to balance the moral scales. 

Needs are still defined by the person in need.





dallasapple said:


> .But havign said that if you DONT mind I dont know why you are mentioning it at all..


This is a little contradictory given the fact that you've labeled her conduct as "Abusive" and "Selfish" above.

I've already said that I could be resentful given the circumstances and history. _I choose not to be_. Each and every one of us can either accept the opposite sex, warts and all or we can rethink our sexual orientation. 

I've chosen to accept women the way they are and part of that is accepting their egocentricism. Most women have a huge amount of empathy for each other, but very little empathy for men. 




dallasapple said:


> Its probably because you prefer sex your self and have a desire for it to HELP with sadness soreness tensness..and "lonliness"..


..Case in point.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Momman said:


> To Tall Average Guy, no I didn't resent my kids, but I didn't resent my husband either. I resented the situation I was in. I try never to resent a person, as they are usually not trying to hurt me, even if it does. Better to resent inanimate things to people you care about.


Thank you for the clarification. Earlier you posted:



> By the way, we still have sex 3-4 times a week, because he wants it. Not because I do. I still resent having to have it when I don't want it, but I know he still has desires, and as I said before, I still love him.


I interpreted that to mean that you resented your husband. I am glad you don't and wish you luck in working through this with your husband.

With all that, i hope that this side track does not scare off the OP and he comes back with some update on his progress.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> You can spin anything negatively if you have a mind to.


actually no that sounded pretty depressing and I read it to 8 peopel they said the same thing..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> This is a little contradictory given the fact that you've labeled her conduct as "Abusive" and "Selfish" above.
> 
> I've already said that I could be resentful given the circumstances and history. I choose not to be.


No its not ..I CONSIDER that abusive..Period..The fact you "choose " to not see it as abusive then VENT abotu it to strangers?..

I dont know either its not "for her and you like it" or you are lookign for help..

I tend to think NOTHING is happening to you that you don't THOROUGHLY enjoy..


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## Momman (Sep 4, 2012)

Hicks, humans don't create what they feel or think. If you think that, try to sit in a room and think absolutely nothing. Things will pop into your head you didn't even know were there. We don't control it, we just control what we do with it. When we feel fear, we didn't choose to feel fear, we just do. However, we can choose to run away, or fight, or negotiate. If we truly control our feelings, we could choose who we are in love with, and that simply doesn't happen. However, when we feel love, we choose weather to address it, run from it, ignore it, etc. When someone dies that we care for, we feel pain. We didn't choose to feel pain, and many ignore it or bury themselves in mindless tasks to keep them from thinking, but the pain was still there. Saying that we control our feelings is simply not a realistic point of view. If you see your child hanging from a window ledge 7 stories up, you will feel fear like you have never known (just an example, this particular one hasn't happened to me, thank heavens). You are saying you can choose not to feel it? Wow, I have no words for that. 

I don't "choose" my feelings or "choose" my thoughts. I do, however, choose which thoughts to share, and which action I take on my feelings. 

I am curious, have you ever had a rejection from a girl, a job, or anything? If so, did you choose to feel hurt or disappointed? Of course you didn't. It happens without your consent. However, you might have chosen how to handle it. Did you wipe if from your thoughts with "her loss, anyway" or "that was probably a dead end job after all"? Maybe you did, but that didn't mean the feeling wasn't there. No matter how you try, you aren't going to be able to convince me that we choose our feelings. I have seen my kids cry because someone made fun of them at school, or they liked a girl who told someone they didn't like them back. They didn't choose to be hurt by it. It just is what it is because we have a personality, a soul, and FEELINGS. If the person you love most in the world told you they don't love you back, you WILL feel hurt, even if you choose not to.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> If you see your child hanging from a window ledge 7 stories up, you will feel fear like you have never known (just an example, this particular one hasn't happened to me, thank heavens). You are saying you can choose not to feel it? Wow, I have no words for that.


Only "high libido people" can..

They "know" its all a choice ...


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> This is a little contradictory given the fact that you've labeled her conduct as "Abusive" and "Selfish" above.


YOU are contradictory ..

Oh no I know what it is..I dont SEE sex between my husband and I as me gettign off how horny I am or him...regardless of any physical or emotional pain either of us are in we get to use each others body to release horniness..

For me HIS feelings emotinal and physical ACTUALLY matter to me during sex and him "sacrificing " to get me of doesnt do it for me..THATS the difference..Never mind..


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> No its not ..I CONSIDER that abusive..Period..The fact you "choose " to not see it as abusive then VENT abotu it to strangers?..
> 
> I dont know either its not "for her and you like it" or you are lookign for help..
> 
> I tend to think NOTHING is happening to you that you don't THOROUGHLY enjoy..


You really seem to be floundering here. I'm sorry.

The OP stated a need that is being ignored in his marriage and that need was delegitimized via the assertion that lack of need is a need in its own right. 

The point of the personal anecdote was (again) that needs are defined by the person who is in need; Not by the person who's perfectly happy with the status quo.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

OK, I ammend my statement.

Human beings feelings are created by the person. Many times it in response to something that occurs.

But the question does remain, what is causing a person to create the feeling of "no libido". 

The journey you take to find the answer to that question is one that will improve your marriage or improve your life.

Deciding that "it just is" stops the journey and is not productive to a marriage.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> Delving into there is something WRONG with how your sexual self works mind or body or both ..Istn so easy to "jump into " ..you dont get a lot of support as you can see around here ..ALL or MOST sympathy goes to the one that "cant get enough" whos being "denied.."


I can think of NO threads where the LD spouse is genuinely concerned about sex, reading books, seeing doctors, seeing counselors, and putting effort into finding a solution to the problem, where the posters here have not shown support. If you have any examples, please share.

The stereotypical case with no support is one such as the OP's. His wife is LD. She refuses to seek treatment or discuss the issue beyond the perfunctory promises of sex "later". That woman wouldn't get much support. And I fail to see why she should.



dallasapple said:


> And its NOT helpful..Like telling someone whos is clinically depressed to "snap out of it" ...Some choose suicide..


What you are failing to see is that there is a difference between emotions and actions. Sometimes, people have a low sex drive. That's sad. But, when those people use their low sex drive as an excuse to impose celibacy on their spouses, that's wrong. Since human beings have free will, some people, such as Momman, can choose to have sex when they don't have the drive for it.


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## Momman (Sep 4, 2012)

The OP here has stated that when he tries to explain his needs to her, she says it is a turn off, he is too demanding, etc. She doesn't want to see anyone about it. I wonder if she just feels that she is a failure because of her lack of desire, and therefore rejects any help because it would confirm she needs it. If so, she might be able to be swayed with the right approach and wording. However, if she truly does not care if he is feeling neglected and doesn't want to find a way, she is not going to. I am hoping, for his sake, that she cares enough to try to find what is wrong. 

As for me, I have read many books, and none of them have been helpful. They all seem to think I must have been abused, neglected, taught sex was wrong, or have fallen out of love with my husband. None of those things are true. I HAD a sex life with him for many years that I enjoyed (not nearly as much as him, but then, he's a guy). So, those haven't helped me much. My first questions to the doctor didn't glean much information for me, either. I have listened to radio shows, watched Talk Sex with Sue until she went off the air, and nothing applied to me. 

The only thing I can conclude is that it is a physiological issue and there must be a way to put my body back in it's normal state so that I can feel desire again and have an interest in sex. That is why I started searching for the more holistic approach. I have a theory that the stresses of life in this century, the chemicals we ingest, the polluted air we breathe, and the toxins that we absorb every day have a greater affect on some of us than others. Energy levels drop, there is a feeling of malaise, we lose the ability to focus on things we like we used to, etc. Those things make you work harder to get everything done, making you even more tired than you were, adding to the general bad feeling, making you lose more focus, and continuing a viscous cycle. I hope to find out how to balance my physical and mental life and diet so that I feel more like I did when I was younger. I will let you know as this unfolds if it helps or not. 

Thanks to everyone for their posts to date. Hopefully, I will have something new to add in a week or two, after my next visit when she tells me what she has found so far.


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## cubsfn (Sep 23, 2010)

Agoodman just saying that I feel for ya man, I even created a post that mirrors some of the same things you are going through. I just wanted to wish you well and I hope you and your wife can meet each other half way at some point!


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

Momman said:


> I don't want to have it, and it is hard to be enthusiastic when it becomes a chore you have to do. I simply don't want the stimulation any longer.
> 
> I believe mine is hormonal, and am seeing a functional medicine doctor to find out what is keeping me from desire at all.


Momman, I'm curious what it feels like when you have sex with no libido? Does it feel unpleasant? Sort of creepy? Annoying? When an HD spouse gets turned down, it often leads to sadness, loss of confidence and self-esteem and sexual frustration. I wonder if having sex without a libido is so annoying a feeling it rivals the upset feelings of the rejected spouse.

Or is the problem that your H wants you to pretend to be enthusiastic and the acting part is a burden to you?

Or does the actual intercourse part take too long? I can imagine more than 10 mins of actual intercourse could be hard for a person who wasn't into it.

What about giving him a BJ or HJ? What about passionate French kissing? Does those things (that might have been fun when you had your libido) become unpleasant once you've lost your libido?

Ask your doc to measure your estradiol and free testosterone levels. You might needs hormone therapy. Women can take testosterone cream, gel, or lozenges if there is no risk of pregnancy. Also kegel exercises helped me A LOT to improve my libido after menopause (resistance exercise with some called gyneflex I think).


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## Agoodman (Sep 4, 2012)

Chris Taylor said:


> Meanwhile, Agoodman is scratching his head thinking "What the f did I start in TAM???"
> 
> A key part of this is that he HAS tried to address it with his wife and got the silent treatment. He has suggested marriage counseling and that didn't fly. His wife said she'd talk to her doctor but hasn't done that in the past and he doesn't expect it to happen in the future.
> 
> MMSL and the 180 are his only options (unless he wants to watch us all bash each other for his own amusement).


Its funny you say that. I am reading some of the responses and think they are really good ideas. I am on page 4 now and realizing its spiraling out of control....Ha ha. I am going to finish reading all of them and respond back to the ones with questions.


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## Agoodman (Sep 4, 2012)

Paulination said:


> You are going to have to get down to brass tacks on this one. I was close to the same boat as you but I didn't let it get this bad or for this long. When I saw the handwriting on the wall I just laid (no pun intended) down the law. I was not going to live in a sexless marriage.
> 
> Don't be mean, don't yell and be absolutley serious.
> 
> ...


I have told her in the past I do not think this marriage will last unless we fix this issue. She will lie in bed dwelling on this. She will tear up and I will feel sorry for her. I think things will get better, but they haven't.

I get depressed about this and sometimes I can't talk to her because I am so angry about the situation. There I times I feel like we are two ghosts in the house just doing our own things. I clearly see it happening before my eyes and I know it so wrong.


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## Agoodman (Sep 4, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Her disorder is simple. She needs a certain amount of excitement/tension to feel desire. Having you constantly seeking her approval is a huge turnoff.
> 
> Having you let her treat you badly and responding by trying "harder" is an even bigger turn off.
> 
> Read married man sex life.


I will definitely read this book. 

As far as the pushiness....that was a while ago. I knew to stop that long ago since she did not like it. I usually try to read her body language or subtle cues she gives me. Over time...these cues have significantly reduced. Its seems we will have sex on a day where we were somewhat out of a routine. Perhaps visiting someone out of state and being in a different bedroom. Perhaps we went out to dinner with friends and she felt it was appropriate for us to "finish" the night off with sex. Don't get me wrong, I usually initiate all this. I do not think she ever initiated sex, unless it was when she was trying to get pregnant a few years ago. Since then....I've been in a sexless limbo.


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## charisma (Sep 5, 2012)

*sexless since marriage*

help me.am livin n a sexless marriage from the day of my marriage with my BF.I need a baby.He doesn want either sex or baby.I cant control my normal drive at times.I luv him and dont want to cheat him.anther boy is constantly disturbing me.please help


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## charisma (Sep 5, 2012)

helo


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## charisma (Sep 5, 2012)

helo helllllllllllo


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## Agoodman (Sep 4, 2012)

Let me give a little more information to assist in showing my level of frustration....how this helps I do not know. I just want to get it off my chest. 

1. I lost my virginity to my wife when I was 19. I did not have the typical 4 years of screwing everything in sight like most college guys. I had friends say I will want to cheat to see what else is out there. I didn't. I thought to myself, "What a wonderful gift I gave to my wife knowing she does not have to worry about me whoring myself to 50 other girls before her." What girl would not want to marry a guy who lost his virginity to her. I will say my sex drive is as strong now as it was when I was 19 YOA. I thought the love of my life would be able to quench this thirst for sex even after we married....boy was I wrong. 

2. My wife had a bad experience with a trusted family member when she was young. I know this took a huge psychological toll on her. It was tough at first when we dealt with this. There was certain things we could not do or in certain locations because it reminded her of the old incidents. I worked with her on this and things seemed to improve some. She even went to counseling sessions in college. I've talked to her about it within the last few years to see how she is in this area and she advised she is fine. It seems she has other things on her mind...kids, job, house, etc. For now, it seems this issue has been resolved. Could it be lingering deep down inside her...I'm sure it is possible. For now, she is not waking up in cold sweats crying about the incidents. They are in the past. 

3. Wife is currently seeing her doctor over a somewhat minor neurological issue (I know- nothing is minor when it comes to your brain). It sounds bad, but she literally has little or no symptoms. Her issue is curable as well. I do not see this directly affecting her sex drive, maybe the stress of having it is. She is constantly getting blood tests done to check certain levels. I always ask, "Are you going to ask them to check your hormone level?" She replies I, "I want to fix this other issue first." We've been dealing with the other issue for almost 18 months now. 

4. As far as expounding on my feelings....I feel like a roommate who sleeps in the same bed as the person I room with. I see her naked in the shower each morning and think..."I can't have her if I wanted her." I think I should just throw away her lingerie in her closet since it never gets used. I sometimes think, MAYBE SHE IS CHEATING ON ME. She has to be getting "it" somewhere else. Knowing my wife, I think not. 

5. Some one asked a question about my "release." Yes, I masturbate. I am a guy. I believe even porn stars masturbate. She knows I masturbate. Not in front of her. She has caught me one time. I was a little devastated for a day, then I thought...oh well. I will get up from bed late at night to head to the old computer. She probably knows it. Does it bother her knowing she is lying right there I am resorting to some computer girl I do not know. I would love to be with her. I have told her I am always willing to have sex, anytime or anyplace. The offer is always on the table. 

6. I get frustrated going out in public with my wife. I see hot women around me and see them with their boyfriends/husbands. I see them being affectionate with each other I get annoyed because I DON'T HAVE THAT. Some of these guys look like complete idiots, but they are probably having sex more than me. 

7. I see the irony when sometimes my wife comes home and tells me stories about her female co-workers complaining about their husbands who cheat on them or do truly idiotic things. She says her friends will ask her if I do any of these things and she advised no. Its like an alarm should be ringing in her head when she tells them how I am and that I am a pretty damn good husband. You would think she would recognize this and feel turned on or something. I sit there and think, "Yes they are cheating idiots, but I bet they are having sex more often than us." 

8. When we have sex, I feel like she is miserable. Like I am making her do something she does not want to do (no I am not forcibly raping her). When we are in the middle of it, there have been times she has given me a look or said something which totally turned me off. There have been a few times where I have pulled out of her and walked out of the room to finish myself off. Its crazy. This has happened only in the last couple of years. 

I'll just stop typing because I am tired and a little delirious. 

I want to thank everyone who posted kind words and suggestions to me. I will take your advice and continue to respond to the posts. 

I will come up with a game plan. I am not going to give up on this marriage. 

Thanks


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## TRGarner (Sep 5, 2012)

Right now, I'm in a sexless marriage, My wife has told me that she is not sexually attracted to me, and she feels guilty b/c when she was size 22 inch waist, never saw her has fat, overweight, or anything. But, no matter what, I am trying to resolve and fix this marriage, I am attending counseling this Friday. What does this matter to you, b/c, no matter what you must put the first foot forward, take that first step.
+


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

All I can tell you is what has worked for me....

I treat her well. Very well. And that is not via gifts. I spend time with her. I listen to her. I open doors for her. And, again, I spend time with her. And very much enjoy the time I do spend. I won't spend more with her to try and get laid, because I already spend a lot of quality time with her where I make her feel like a million dollars.

I do my fair share around the house. And she must do hers.

She must treat me well as well. That means being considerate, thoughtful, and not insensitive, belittling, or rude. If she doesn't treat me well, she gets called on it quick. 

I do not accept a simple "no" as an answer. That is RUDE. She answers like that, and that is the first warning flag that she believes I want or need it more than she does. And I deal with it and show her that's NOT the case. Usually at first in a light hearted manner. If she doesn't catch the drift quick, we have a talk. I won't be told "no" like I'm an errant boy reaching for the cookie jar.

What I will do if she keeps up that nonsense is start pulling back. She will notice a behavior change in me. I never yell, whine, get out of line, display a lot of anger, etc. But she'll know I'm not pleased and I will start pulling back. 

She was told from day one, using my ex and my sexless life with my ex as an example, that it was far too frustrating, far too loveless, and built far too much resentment, and I will "never live like that again". And I won't. And I mean it. And I believe she knows I do.

I keep my behavior consistent. If she "rejects" me politely because of an issue or just not being in the mood, I accept that and let it go completely, as long as she does it in a considerate manner. And as long as it doesn't become a habit (less of course, a health or serious emotionally trying issue). I never show frustration or anger if she happens to not be in the mood sometimes. Because that truly does not happen often. But, if she's rude about it, she'll know almost instantly I'm not happy about it.

I KNOW I treat her well. If that is not enough to keep her attracted to me, I will call her on her crap. There needs to be a balance. As stated above, trying to please her more as she tries to please you less is a recipie for disaster. The loss of respect and attraction starts there. If you treat her well all the time, you have the right to demand she does the same to you, or you will find someone who does. 

Don't ever take her for granted. Don't ever allow yourself to be taken for granted. It's really that simple.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Momman, do you enjoy sex when you are having it? My wife has zero libido too, but she gets into it eventually. She says she likes it, but she has to decide and then she gets in the mood. In fact, we have sex once or maybe twice a month because she doesn't need it that often. So, I sit and wait and often gets frustrating when it doesn't seem to happen. But getting angry or pushy doesn't accomplish anything. It actually makes it worse. 

My wife has been very honest with me. She said she can't change and I'm free to go if I find this unbearable. The difference with you is that she is not willing to fix it, because it's psychological and she is not prepared to go through a traumatic time (i.e. therapy) in order to solve her issues and have more sex. I understand this. It's not ideal for our marriage, but it's not enough for me to go. I have accepted it. Don't know if I will be able to sustain the 'status quo' forever, but I'm staying for the moment.




Momman said:


> The OP here has stated that when he tries to explain his needs to her, she says it is a turn off, he is too demanding, etc. She doesn't want to see anyone about it. I wonder if she just feels that she is a failure because of her lack of desire, and therefore rejects any help because it would confirm she needs it. If so, she might be able to be swayed with the right approach and wording. However, if she truly does not care if he is feeling neglected and doesn't want to find a way, she is not going to. I am hoping, for his sake, that she cares enough to try to find what is wrong.
> 
> As for me, I have read many books, and none of them have been helpful. They all seem to think I must have been abused, neglected, taught sex was wrong, or have fallen out of love with my husband. None of those things are true. I HAD a sex life with him for many years that I enjoyed (not nearly as much as him, but then, he's a guy). So, those haven't helped me much. My first questions to the doctor didn't glean much information for me, either. I have listened to radio shows, watched Talk Sex with Sue until she went off the air, and nothing applied to me.
> 
> ...


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## eccentric (Nov 11, 2011)

I am also recommending the MMSL.
I have been on the MMSL MAP for a few months now.
I have noticed some change in our relationship in that we are now having sex. Usually I get the feeling that my wife is not into it and she will try and skip the foreplay and go straight to the end.
But the main gains from MMSL have been in myself -and this is huge! I am a lot more confident and positive that I will survive this. It would be nice if my wife came along too.


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## mrcow (Jan 27, 2010)

Hicks said:


> Don't look at the hormones.
> Don't look for disorders.
> 
> That's her job to figure out.
> ...


I liked the post already, but I still feel I need to comment on that as well.

spot on, Hicks!
that is a definition of "a man of integrity". 

easier said than done, that's for sure. "electronically tested", so to speak, but I see, no, feel, this is actually the only true road to follow. if it leads to divorce, oh well, those things happen. if it leads to better marriage - great! but following the current road will lead OP/me/others-w/-similar-stories to endless swamp of self despair. ymmv, of course.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Donny64's post is perfect.

AGoodMan, the answer to your problem is entirely written in that post. Read it as many times as necessary to sink in. It works.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is very good. 

It is also true that you set an expectation early on and have retained balance. 

One key theme you mention is that a disrespectful rejection is a big deal. 

Imagine what would happen if your spouse came up to you at night and in a very nice voice said 'I love you', and you reacted with an irritated 'I know' 

I would not expect any woman to tolerate that. I would not want to mate with someone who allowed themselves to be treated that way.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

donny64 said:


> All I can tell you is what has worked for me....
> 
> I treat her well. Very well. And that is not via gifts. I spend time with her. I listen to her. I open doors for her. And, again, I spend time with her. And very much enjoy the time I do spend. I won't spend more with her to try and get laid, because I already spend a lot of quality time with her where I make her feel like a million dollars.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Another way to say this is align your actions with your words. If you say something is a problem but continue to act in the same way, you are sending conflicting messages. She hears you are unhappy but sees you doing things that indicates that you are happy. Human nature is to accept the message we want to hear, so she assumes it is not the big of a deal.

This does require that you be honest with why you are pulling back. None of the passive aggressive crap where you tell her everything is fine all the while being cold. Tell her honestly that her not putting in the effort to fix the problem means that you need to lool after yourself and that means less effort directed toward her. Be nice about conveying this, but remain firm. If she is not putting in the effort, why should you?


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

Agoodman said:


> 6. I get frustrated going out in public with my wife. I see hot women around me and see them with their boyfriends/husbands. I see them being affectionate with each other I get annoyed because I DON'T HAVE THAT. Some of these guys look like complete idiots, but they are probably having sex more than me.
> 
> 
> Thanks


Your post leads me to think that your wife gives you no affection, either. Not just "no sex". Do you not hold hands walking together, does she kiss you just because? Are you not affectionate with each other - both ways, her to you, and you to her? 

Reading the above says your time and doing things together is like walking your cat, which is to say, not likely to be inspiring to either of you. 

So, if no affection... of course there's going to be no sex. Further, if there's no affection, sex is the least important thing going on - you need to know why affection is withdrawn.


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## TrueTalk (Aug 30, 2012)

Agoodman,

I suspected your wife had gone through something in childhood before your mentioning it. If she was molested in _any_ way understand that it could be affecting her and the marriage relationship deeply no matter how long ago it occurred or the fact that she's had counseling in the past.

There is much *shame* associated with the things children endure at the hands of perverted adults and it's a difficult thing to _recognize_ and _acknowledge _when the person is years removed from the incident. Whether this is her case, it's hormonal or both, start by understanding and BELIEVING that this has nothing to do with you. Kudos that you want your marriage to work. You're going to need a stedfast and perservering attitude if your marriage is going to survive this trial! But you can! Don't pressure and don't pity her. First, come to grasp that she is probably going through pains more complicated and profound then your own. Somehow the intimacy connection within her has been severed. I'd bet she desperately wants intimacy but is so afraid of it, that she rejects or believes she is repulsed by it. It's going to take a whole lot of patience on your part but your marriage is salvageable!


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## Agoodman (Sep 4, 2012)

Just an update...within the last month my wife and I had a talk. Actually, I talked to her and told her how I felt about the current situation. She eventually came out and said she thinks she is depressed and does not know herself these days. It appears she is stressed from work, the kids, and life in general. I have encouraged her to go see "someone" to talk to since she cannot fix this on her own. I have been gently reminding her to go see someone and I will go with her if she likes. She still has not found a person to speak to, but she says she is looking. I have been reading the the "Married man's sex life" through all this. That is basically it. Still haven't had sex in over 4 months and its killing me.


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I asked my wife to seek counseling FOREVER and she never actually did take the initiate until I said that if she didn't, then I was going alone without her. The next week she set up an appointment and started going.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Agoodman said:


> Just an update...within the last month my wife and I had a talk. Actually, I talked to her and told her how I felt about the current situation. She eventually came out and said she thinks she is depressed and does not know herself these days. It appears she is stressed from work, the kids, and life in general. I have encouraged her to go see "someone" to talk to since she cannot fix this on her own. I have been gently reminding her to go see someone and I will go with her if she likes. She still has not found a person to speak to, but she says she is looking. I have been reading the the "Married man's sex life" through all this. That is basically it. Still haven't had sex in over 4 months and its killing me.


After the holidays, lay down the law. Start looking for a marriage counselor now. Make an appointment for the first week of January for the both of you. After Christmas, you give her a choice. She can go to marriage counseling with you (which may lead to more individual counseling for her, as well). If she doesn't want to begin working on fixing the problem, you will go to a lawyer and begin the process towards divorce. 

She has displayed that your problems and your needs are not her priority. Until and unless you convey the gravity of the situation and the level of your despair, nothing will get done. 

You can't control what she does, but you can control your own responses to her behavior. She may be having difficulties, but she's doing nothing to get her issues addressed. One of two outcomes will occur if you turn up the heat. One, she would respond to the gravity of the situation and recognize her role in building a satisfying relationship for both of you. Or, two, you will come to the conclusion more quickly that she will not change no matter what you do. This will allow you to move on and make yourself eligible for a relationship that could make you happy down the line. 

You are perfectly correct to be frustrated. The time for action nears.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I don't have time to go read through all your last 6 pages.

If your wife is unhappy, depressed and works to much, it's not 100% on her to fix. It is on her to fix, you do have to make sure she understands how important SF is for you and that she is taking ownership of making herself the best wife possible, but there are things you can do and think about.

Women are not men. Men can have sex while stressed, have a deadline at work, kids threw up on them, dog has cancer and the like. In fact, men want to have sex to get away from thinking about all of these things. Women on the other hand, when stress, depression and life are weighing on her emotions, then she has trouble moving away from that and submitting emotionally to sex.

So, one of your keys is to set up a life where your wife's situation is not full of stress. And it's up to you to provide entertainment, mystery and thrills to her (outside the bedroom) to combat depressed feelings. You need to lead her into a sexual state. Don't outsource this to a counselor. There are many things you can do.


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## so now what? (Apr 13, 2012)

samtravis said:


> Having sex 2-3 times a week is not asking much. Is you wife aware that we men need sexual release every few days.. What are you doing for your sexual release? Do you masturbate? Does she know you masturbate and is she fine with it?
> 
> Maybe try to be more aggresive and demand for sex, maybe she would like it.Maybe masturbate before her once, she may feel bad.
> 
> Ask her if she is not in mood, is she fine with your penis using her vagina for release


2-3 times a week??? not asking much huh? I am lucky if I get it once a month


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Hicks said:


> So, one of your keys is to set up a life where your wife's situation is not full of stress. And it's up to you to provide entertainment, mystery and thrills to her (outside the bedroom) to combat depressed feelings. You need to lead her into a sexual state. Don't outsource this to a counselor. There are many things you can do.


Caretake much? Seriously though, this advice is really bad.

He is in no manner responsible for her sexuality or perception of stress. His responsibility is to pull his weight in meeting the family's needs, which means 50% - not working his tail off to provide her a soft life. Her responsibility is to maintain a healthy self (physically and emotionally) able to meet her 50% of the family's needs and her husband's sexual needs while dealing with the demands of everyday life in a constructive manner.

A continuously low-stress environment is difficult if not impossible to maintain. Everyday life is too busy. Sick kids, homework, activities, deadlines at work, traffic, chores, extended family issues, chores and repairs, money problems - pick whichever match your situation. Even if he does manage to overcome these to help her out and get her to be sexual with him, at what cost to him does that happen? Is it fair to him?

His responsibility as it relates to sex and stress is to help create an environment conducive to the functioning of a healthy, well-adjusted adult. He cannot be responsible for the environment on his own because he does not have control over it. Likewise he cannot be responsible for her sexual response because he has zero control over it. She must decide to have sex with him.

Indeed, if you look on TAM you will see the long-term success rate of your suggestion is near-zero. I honestly cannot think of a single anecdote where this result was achieved. What does happen is the refusing spouse improves for a short while then goes back to old behaviors, or finds other activities to fill the time, or simply enjoys the extra attention while doing nothing different. This strongly suggests that the problem lies within the refusing spouse and environmental issue changes solve nothing.

Another consideration is that some refusers do not refuse out of emotional difficulties but as a tool of power or manipulation. If that is the case, acting as you suggest above is only rewarding bad behavior and encouraging more of the same, just like giving a bully your lunch money today typically ensures he will come back for more of your money tomorrow.

A individual counselor is exactly where the refuser here needs to be. She needs to accept responsibility for her behavior and learn coping skills. Also, in my (admittedly inexpert) opinion, the IC for her needs to be blended with MC for them together, so that her drive to improve herself does not come at the expense to the relationship.


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## Mindy345 (Dec 10, 2012)

Agoodman said:


> I apologize in advance since my situation is probably a carbon copy of other men's sexless marriage. I am typing this to gather my thoughts and vent. If someone with experience can offer advice besides, "Go to a marriage counselor", that would be appreciated. Hopefully some women will read this and offer some insight as well.
> 
> Here is a little about myself...
> 1. I have been with my wife since I was 19, married her after 5 years of dating, and we have two young kids. I am 36 now.
> ...


Hey OP,

Ever occurred to you that she avoids sex because she doesn't like it? What you don't like, you avoid, right? Seems that people here try to analyze it very deeply, but it is as simple as that... Of course, you don't want to see that as you want your marriage to work.

I mean, I can see myself in your wife... I don't like sex, and in my earlier relationships, when I would meet a lovely guy, at first I would pretend having a normal sex drive... Then I would start avoiding it... I really resented having to have sex, it's so time-consuming and dirty, IMO. Luckily, I'm not yet married! I DO NOT want to get married to some guy and then reject him for the rest of my life. I have decided to look for LD men.

The point is, at one point I wanted to get married to this guy with a healthy sex drive. I thought that once we were married, I wouldn't have to pretend anything anymore. But I realized that it wouldn't have worked out. Maybe your wife didn't think about that.


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## so now what? (Apr 13, 2012)

Mindy345 said:


> Hey OP,
> 
> Ever occurred to you that she avoids sex because she doesn't like it? What you don't like, you avoid, right? Seems that people here try to analyze it very deeply, but it is as simple as that... Of course, you don't want to see that as you want your marriage to work.
> 
> ...


things change as a marriage goes on...we used to do it every day now 20 years later it is more like once month....


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

DTO said:


> Caretake much? Seriously though, this advice is really bad.
> 
> He is in no manner responsible for her sexuality or perception of stress. His responsibility is to pull his weight in meeting the family's needs, which means 50% - not working his tail off to provide her a soft life. Her responsibility is to maintain a healthy self (physically and emotionally) able to meet her 50% of the family's needs and her husband's sexual needs while dealing with the demands of everyday life in a constructive manner.
> 
> ...


A man must manage the marriage situation in order to maintain his wife's sexual response.

Men have a built in sexual response: Naked Women.

Women's sexual response is more about the totality of their life, getting in a certain mood or state which allows her to submit sexually.

And, the man must create the environment where the wife can submit to her sexual desires. The man does not need this himself and therefore fails to recognize this is needed.

Let's talk about Stress. Unmanaged, a wife will worry about the kids, the house is dirty, the dirtly look her coworker gave her, the grocery list you name it. All of which will cause her to go non sexual. The man needs to take responsiblity for leading his wife away from those emotional stresses and into a more sexual state.

I know there are women who are naturally horny and don't need this... But their men are not posting about a sexless marriage.


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## Agoodman (Sep 4, 2012)

I have read some of the new responses. Some are helpful and some are outright ridiculous. Makes me just want to pack up and forget about the whole thing. I deserve to be happy and should not have to go through a living hell in order to get that. 

I have come to the realization that her depression is real and me merely creating an environment of X,Y, and Z will do nothing for her. She needs help from a professional. I've done enough reading here and in mental health articles. She needs help and she needs to Want to help herself or else I am going to leave her. I kept using my kids as a reason to stay, but at this point, I am willing to move out of my home and live in a crappy apartment. I have told myself over the years, "I bet I won't notice what I have until its gone." The only thing I will be missing is the second income. I have little interaction with my wife at this time. Yes, we may go to a party together or sit at the same table together at dinner. Overall, I feel I have more interaction with the girl who serves me my Starbucks coffee than my own wife. Is that pathetic or what?

The saga continues.


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## Honest opinion (Dec 14, 2012)

Hi there,well you are thinking of leaving and you have the right to do so , but what about the kids? my brother was in your situation left his wife he has two kids remarried again and now he is in the same bought ,he regret the minute he left the first one,as the second is way yay worse but now he is stuck he has 3 kids in total so now way out and we know he is cheating ,this could happen to you too right ?? Have you asked yourself if your second choice will be grantee happy sex life ? My advice is to fix the problem ,dose your wife enjoy sex with you! Full satisfaction ? Are you rough with her? Have you ever flirt with other girls infront of her ,do you watch porn?the way you presented yourself the nice muscler handsome this and that you put her down somehow that she dosent measure up to you right? It could be one thing that set her off ,talk to her,I know what you go through believe me ,but think of your kids ,I stayed for mine it's not easy choice but your kids worth it


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I'm sorry if my advice is bad.

What I mean about creating the environment is as follows. A depressed, non sexual wife is a threat to my entire marriage. It has no place. My wife completely understands this. How did she get there? When work or stress or life started overwhelming her I reminded her of what a mother and wife's priorities are... And that earning $, dealing with her sister, dealing with some other outside factor comes after meeting the needs of her husband and her children.

Women who are allowed to run away with their feelings typically get overwhelmed by what is happening in their life, get depressed and go non sexual. They need that manly strenghth (sometimes used in a positive way, sometimes proverbially slapping her in the face) to get redirected off that path.

So you are on the rigth track.... But it's usually very unsuccessful for man to say "I want more sex. Why don't you have more sex with me? Oh, your depressed. I want you to see a therapist to fix it"....

What I mean about creating the environment is that you have to make it impossible for her not to adress her issues. You can see just asking her or telling her does not work.


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## wifey87 (Dec 15, 2012)

Agoodman said:


> I apologize in advance since my situation is probably a carbon copy of other men's sexless marriage. I am typing this to gather my thoughts and vent. If someone with experience can offer advice besides, "Go to a marriage counselor", that would be appreciated. Hopefully some women will read this and offer some insight as well.
> 
> Here is a little about myself...
> 1. I have been with my wife since I was 19, married her after 5 years of dating, and we have two young kids. I am 36 now.
> ...


I have the same problem, my husband never wants to have sex. I have been there for him done everything possible for him to be happy and really never to have to do anything. He does help out around the house and he is a pretty good husband and just until now that I have read your post I realize that now I am angry at him for no reason and its because of the rejection to not have sex with him and he is great, I dont want too lose him cause I want to have sex. I wish there is a medicine I can take to not want to have sex, but I just think my husband is so attractive and so sexy.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Agoodman said:


> I have read some of the new responses. Some are helpful and some are outright ridiculous. Makes me just want to pack up and forget about the whole thing. I deserve to be happy and should not have to go through a living hell in order to get that.
> 
> I have come to the realization that her depression is real and me merely creating an environment of X,Y, and Z will do nothing for her. She needs help from a professional. I've done enough reading here and in mental health articles. She needs help and she needs to Want to help herself or else I am going to leave her. I kept using my kids as a reason to stay, but at this point, I am willing to move out of my home and live in a crappy apartment. I have told myself over the years, "I bet I won't notice what I have until its gone." The only thing I will be missing is the second income. I have little interaction with my wife at this time. Yes, we may go to a party together or sit at the same table together at dinner. Overall, I feel I have more interaction with the girl who serves me my Starbucks coffee than my own wife. Is that pathetic or what?
> 
> The saga continues.


The breakthrough finally. Though not quite as severe I saw much of my relationship in your initial post. I have been able to turn things around somewhat since last summer. I only endured what you have for about 18 months and I was at my wits end. I was close to ending it all and would have had she not received the message that I was about finished.

You have put in the time and the effort now you need to follow through on the plan you outlined above. She needs to get help with or without you. You really deserve more out of a relationship and life at this point.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Agoodman said:


> I have read some of the new responses. Some are helpful and some are outright ridiculous. Makes me just want to pack up and forget about the whole thing. I deserve to be happy and should not have to go through a living hell in order to get that.
> 
> I have come to the realization that her depression is real and me merely creating an environment of X,Y, and Z will do nothing for her. She needs help from a professional. I've done enough reading here and in mental health articles. She needs help and she needs to Want to help herself or else I am going to leave her. I kept using my kids as a reason to stay, but at this point, I am willing to move out of my home and live in a crappy apartment. I have told myself over the years, "I bet I won't notice what I have until its gone." The only thing I will be missing is the second income. I have little interaction with my wife at this time. Yes, we may go to a party together or sit at the same table together at dinner. Overall, I feel I have more interaction with the girl who serves me my Starbucks coffee than my own wife. Is that pathetic or what?
> 
> The saga continues.


Agoodman

Do not leave your wifes depression up to her. Before you lose all love for her go speak to the family Dr. Ask him for a referral for your wife regarding her depression.

Then make the appt. for her.

Be proactive.

And do not give her any wiggle room.

You both deserve better.

Make it happen.


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## Agoodman (Sep 4, 2012)

It has been a long time since I logged in to here. Quite a bit has happened since my last posts.

I have encouraged my wife to go to therapy with me as a couple. We found an excellent therapist and we both talked about the situation and her depression. It turns out memories of my wife's childhood sexual abuse has reared its ugly face and has been devastating to her. I have no idea what triggered it. Perhaps the stress of two young kids and her promotion at work. 

She has had some rough times dealing with the aftermath of her therapy sessions. She has been a real bear to live with at times. 

Our sex life has improved very little. There was a point there I kept track and we did not have any type of sexual contact for a year. Yes, there is a special place in heaven for me. 

He have basically been going separately to therapy. She to deal with her issues, and me to learn to deal with her appropriately. This constant rejection has taken its toll on me. I am fine though. 

That's where we are at this point....I am trying to be a trooper through all of this. 

Jut thought I would give an update...if anyone cared.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Were these "recovered" memories or had she been repressing these events? HUGE difference!


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## Agoodman (Sep 4, 2012)

She knew about them. I knew about them. We talked about it a long time ago. I thought she dealt with it was was able to move on. Apparently, she never really dealt with it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Agoodman said:


> She knew about them. I knew about them. We talked about it a long time ago. I thought she dealt with it was was able to move on. Apparently, *she never really dealt with it.*


Famous last words...

Several threads already running in this section on this issue. Several husbands posting their frustration, their pain and their desire to be a part of the solution. Check out these threads:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/126698-dont-care-sex-due-childhood-abuse.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/103202-wife-sexually-abused-child-hates-sex.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/physic...-married-survivor-childhood-sexual-abuse.html

For what it's worth, I'm really sorry for the pain your going through. I hope your wife takes her recovery and healing seriously and learns what it's like to be normal.


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## Really!?!? (Sep 14, 2013)

Agoodman, we do care - and you are not alone.

I too am sorry you are going through this, and I 2nd Anon Pink's recommendation on those threads, specifically "married to a survivor of child sexual abuse".

This thread goes back almost exactly one year ago, and I highly recommend reading it from beginning to end. The information and insight you will gain ,.... accumlatively from partners and some survivors,.... and their shared experiences in counseling, reading, and relationships - is equivilant to hundreds of hours of therapy (IMO). 

Also read "Haunted Marriage",.... it was recommended to me, and I just recently read it,.... although too late to save my marriage. I hope it will help save yours. It sounds like you are just beginning this healing journey.

My W and I also discussed her CSA and rape trauma before we married, and we both thought she had it handled and "dealt" with it,.... but unfortunately not. 

I read your orignal post, and it was quite eerie on how it mirrored my marriage and sex life with my W. 

Good luck, and I hope things work out for you and your W.


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

Agoodman said:


> I apologize in advance since my situation is probably a carbon copy of other men's sexless marriage. I am typing this to gather my thoughts and vent. If someone with experience can offer advice besides, "Go to a marriage counselor", that would be appreciated. Hopefully some women will read this and offer some insight as well.
> 
> Here is a little about myself...
> 1. I have been with my wife since I was 19, married her after 5 years of dating, and we have two young kids. I am 36 now.
> ...


My advice having lived through a decade long sexless hell that ended with me bei.g so crushed inside and feeling so worthless that I attempted suicide? Run. There is no fixing it. Mmsl won't help, the deniers in a sexless marriage are incapable of empathizing with their spouse's devastation, they'll string you out until you implode, then even blame you for that also. Just run. I miss my kids, I even still live my ex, but she just couldn't love me at all, and was happy to watch me disintegrate. Life is too short, I am happier already free of her. Run, op.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

The Cro-Magnon said:


> Run. There is no fixing it. Mmsl won't help,* the deniers in a sexless marriage are incapable of empathizing with their spouse's devastation, they'll string you out until you implode, then even blame you for that also. Just run. *


This ^^^ seems to be the reality in many cases.
Sad, but very true.
This and many other threads like it are painful to read.
Sometimes there's only so much you can do OP. Don't get acclimatised to this condition that you have been living in.
Sometimes we can get addicted to a certain type of pain so it seems " normal ", you sacrifice your happiness thinking that you can help. 
Is there a time frame for her " recovery?"
Your initial post was almost one year ago.
How many more years are you willing to go on this way?


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## Really!?!? (Sep 14, 2013)

Dear Agoodman,

It's almost like your original thread a year ago, inadvertantly drifted off course from the get go,.... and then has finally "located" it's intended destination. I went back and read it from the beginning.

From the date of your original post on 9/3/12, there were 79 posts through 9/8/12,.... and I was blown away at the various frustrating sexual situations from "normal" marriages,..... without the issue of Child Sexual Abuse haunting one of the spouses in the relationship. 

I can't even relate to having sex 3 times a week with my CSA survivor wife, as relationships with CSA Survivors fall off the cliff usually soon after the marriage. For those of you previous posters getting it 3 times week, yet complaining about lack of interest from your spouses,... kudos to you - at least you're getting something.

Since OP's updated post on 10/6/13, acknowledging the CSA as being the apparent main issue in your marriage, *your healing journey has just taken a major course change*.

I'm afraid things are going to get much more difficult and complicated than you can imagine now. YOU NEED TO KNOW, that you are dealing with something that will defy all logic, and be one of the most challenging times in your life. I don't mean to frighten you, but I feel inclined to prepare you for what is to come.

Read those other threads Anon Pink suggested regarding Married to a Survivor of Child Sexual Abuse,..... there are things in there that you should know as soon as possible, to help you right away,.... versus suffering several more months and years before understanding the why's, what's, how's of things happening in your marriage with a CSA Survivor.

There are many possible reasons why your wife doesn't want to have sex:

- If you haven't had sex in over a year,.... she may still love you, but not in a sexual way. She may subconsicously see you as "an abuser or perpetrator", and no longer her boyfriend/lover/husband. Read posts from Thor, Uptown, Zookeeper,.... in the other threads,.... it will explain volumes. I wish I had known this years ago!!!!!!!

- It doesn't sound like she has trust issues with you,.... but look into that anyway. My W _created_ trust issues with me (just to have something to transfer her unresolved abuse issues onto), and it built a wedge in our marriage that is now seemingly un-repairable. 

- I understand completely when Cro-Magnum and Carribean Man tell you to RUN! They likely have shared the same endless agony, pain, and defeat from their ex-w's as myself. 

- I did not discover nor was enlightened with the extent and complexity of the CSA Trauma effecting my W, until it was too late to salvage my marriage of 15 years. I was actually married, divorced, then re-married to my soon-to be-ex-again-W. Crazy,.... but true. She went through such volatile cycles, drove me away, "healed", then we re-connected. However, the cycles continued over the next 10 years,.... and really - I don't see an end to it.

- My W is just not aware nor strong enough to take on the YEARS of therapy, healing, and work she needs to undertake to be healthy. My IC says it's like an illness, that she doesn't acknowledge - so therefore won't do the work that needs to be done. It's like people who smoke or chew tobacco - they either don't care or have such blatant denial that it's unhealthy for them,..... so they continue to smoke/chew. Really!?!?

- If my W can't and won't put in the effort to heal, then there's nothing anyone else can do, including me. 

- I hope your situation is different, and that you and she can work through this together. As Anon Pink says, it is _possible to heal from this_ - but,... it is *also not possible for some to heal*. Statistically,... the odds are not in favor of the majority of CSA Survivors healing. Probably not what you wanted to hear,.... but something I heard 10 years ago,... and something I still struggle accepting to this day. Sometimes *the truth hurts*,.... and some also say, *the truth will set you free*.

- Maybe knowing this, will inspire you to give it your all one last time,.... and if it works out - then great. If it doesn't work out, you can look back at some point and honestly say you gave it your all. This was my fate,.... I tried and tried and tried, but if the Survivor won't do their part - it's hopeless. My W and I will be divorcing soon. 

- Even now, I look back and realize I am powerless over this curse. I even have her family telling me that they know how hard I tried to make our marriage work, and they have called me a "Saint" for lasting this long with her,.... My family on the other hand,... are insisting I RUN as fast as I can! It's hard,... and painful my friend.

- Be prepared to invest years of hard work, courage, and patience. It will be painful, frustrating, and down right lonely for you. Just being real here,......

Good Luck - you sound like a good man!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Goodman,
There is a HUGE difference between a wife who is making you her highest priority any is struggling with CSA issues, and a wife who treats you like an after thought. 

In the latter case, she has no real motivation to address her issues. And worse, she won't really care how much misery she causes you, because in her mind you don't really matter. 



Agoodman said:


> She knew about them. I knew about them. We talked about it a long time ago. I thought she dealt with it was was able to move on. Apparently, she never really dealt with it.


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## pinotnoir (Jul 13, 2013)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I don't think the husband's/wive's who do this truly understand how it can destroy the soul, confidence and self-esteem of someone.
> 
> Why would someone who claims they love you want to destroy how you feel about yourself?
> 
> I will never understand it.


I agree...:scratchhead:


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## Agoodman (Sep 4, 2012)

Where can I possibly begin. Since the beginning of this year, my wife started to see a counselor. She is enjoying talking with her. We initially went as a couple the first few times. Eventually we each branched off. My wife is now focusing her CSA while I continue to go to try to deal with my stress of being a secondary. I has also been reading "Allies in Healing" at the counselor a request. 

I am still feeling neglected, ignored, and basically non existent at times. My needs are completely ignored. I try to talk to a close woman friend about my feelings as well. There still is no sex, maybe an occasional bj. Occasional is every few months. 

What still causes a lot of confusion is how all this reared it ugly face years later. Like I said earlier, we talked about it in the past and she seemed to be ok with it. We had an ok sex life. After we had our second son, the sex literally stopped and almost all affection ended. I am curious what triggered it. Was it the added stress of a second child, a recent promotion at work? Idk. I am hanging in there and am trying to focus on myself. It sounds ridiculous, but I seem to feel the affection void with attention from other women I interact with. Nothing sexual or affair like, but just interaction with other women who seem to compliment me on various things......

Idk...I'm hanging on and don't know if I'll ever throw in the towel. I sometimes think I am being dumb for not just running away while I am still young so I can find someone I am attracted to. 

I just get so frustrated how my whole world was turned upside down by her coming out with this. Yes, I know she is a victim, but I just want her to just validate what I am going through. 

Sorry if this is all jumbled. Feel free to discuss.


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

As far sexual abuse comming back to haunt people years later, I can relate. Me and my wife had been married several years with no problems. Then we hear about a friend of a friends kid that was moselted by an uncle. She totally shut down and our marriage started going in the crapper fast. She honestly did not know what the problem was. We eventually went to counseling where it came out that she had been previously molested by an uncle when she was very young. She had never mentioned this at all, an in talking she said she had forgot about it. She went through another 6 months of IC which culminated with her going to her uncles grave and screaming at him for 30 minutes. She has been fine ever since then and can even talk about it. I have heard that when they can talk about it with no emotional response, they have dealt with it. 

Please be careful about venting to the female friend. She has a big fight with her husband and looks to the sex starved friend who is desperate for affection to help her through it. Think you can see where it could easily end up. And I am sure that a wife that starves her husband for sex and affection will dump his ass in a second if he cheats. Best to avoid that possibility. If you see her, do it in only public places.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Agoodman (Sep 4, 2012)

I am curious how us secondary survivors are supposed to put sex on a back burner and just find ways to satisfy our needs. I think this is ridiculous. Holding off on sex is like asking me to stop eating. As time goes on, I get hungrier and hungrier. Masturbation is a quick fix, but does not solve everything. What are we supposed to do. I feel at times I need companionship and affection from another. I do not get that from my wife. I've been reading some of the other threads and think things look bleak if I have to wait several years for improvement. I have been waiting several years already.....god this situation royally sucks. 

There are times I think about having a strictly NSA sex relationship with someone just to satisfy my needs. I know this defeats the purpose of staying with my wife to save the marriage. It just gets so damn frustrating......

Venting....venting....not having a good week.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

You're not supposed to put your needs on the back burner.

Your wife doesn't have to heal. She doesn't have to become a whole and sexual woman. The pain she carries doesn't have to weigh her down. These are all choices she may not even be aware of making or not making.

I wanted a good marriage and knew that meant a good sex life. Those were my goals. GOALS!!!! What are her therapeutic goals? Is becoming a fully able sexual partner on the top 3? If not, then it's time to bag. 

If she's reaching for health, then she has to actually reach for it, not just sit in a chair and talk about it!

1. Goal one: to identify and learn to control triggers and find work arounds.
2. Goal two: to accept physical touch in the spirit in which it is given, not received through damaged lenses.
3. Goal three: to work daily with my own body. To learn it, to love it, to own it, to accept it and to lay the foundation to share it.
4. Goal four: to study the various aspects of human sexuality so that my response and reaction to sexual situations can be contextualized and normalized.
5 Goal five: to recognize and appreciate my partners in healing. That means appreciating their needs as they have appreciated mine.
6. Goal six: to learn to celebrate the beauty of the body and the gift that sex was intended to be before it became warped and dangerous.

Your sexlessness has become the norm, her way of life. While you slowly die inside she thinks everything is fine because she's trying. Well trying ain't doing!

Get her therapeutic goals and find out where normal sexual experiences ranks. If it's not up there, put a finite time limit on it.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> I wanted a good marriage and knew that meant a good sex life. Those were my goals. GOALS!!!! What are her therapeutic goals? Is becoming a fully able sexual partner on the top 3? If not, then it's time to bag.


Better question: is she even seeking therapy for this issue?

It seems abuse survivors may think they are above the normal relationship give and take. Here, she might not think everything is good because she's trying. She might resent him for having to make even a relatively feeble effort to keep him off her back.

Trust me on this. When my ex left, she said she resented being held accountable for her sexual performance. Amazingly, her parting shot was "you said sex was bad". No apologies for four sexless years out of 16 or for never honoring her commitment. In her mind, being an abuse victim absolved her of responsibility - seriously.

I agree with your advice to insist on therapy. I would add that he make it clear he notes it may be very difficult, it might take years to get straight, and she might need to work on it the rest of her life. He will be there every step of the way, but she needs to persevere. "It's too hard" will not be acceptable.


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## Really!?!? (Sep 14, 2013)

Agoodman,

Read "Haunted Marriage". It will explain how the suppressed CSA memories surface years after the CSA Trauma, and why it happened after both you and your W assumed she had dealt with her Trauma earlier.

It has to do with the CSA trauma and memories being suppressed by coping and defense mechanisms that are developed at an early age for Survivors (typically during and shortly after the CSA occurs). My W has explained to me that she has this ability to "numb" herself at will, when facing anxiety, trauma, haunted memories, etc,...... It is not a healthy coping mechanism, but one she developed out of survival, as she explained to me and our therapist.

When survivors become involved in more intimate and trusting relationships later in life,... they gradually let their guard down, and the coping/defense mechanisms begin to lessen, and the old CSA memories begin to surface. This is when the wheels start to come off in your marriage, sex becomes less frequent or stops all together, and your marriage becomes more and more strained.

Marriage is complicated enough with issues such as money, trust, communication, intimacy, connection, etc,... and when you have a relationship where one of the spouse is a CSA Survivor, it maginifies normal marriage issues,... by 10 times or more!

I've read "Allies in Healing" about 6 times over the past 13 years, and although very helpful - I found "Haunted Marriage" to be very insightful in terms of interpreting the dysfunction in my marriage and how my W's CSA trauma had impacted our relationship.

It was almost as if I wrote the book myself!!!! I was at my parents house one day, and I was reading and highlighting sections of the book that "mirrored" exactly what had happened in my marriage,.... and my mom interupted me one time and said, "why don't you just take a paint brush and highlight every page in the book - that'll save you the trouble highlighting every line!"

I received some much needed validation from the things I learned in that book, and it made me realize that my W is suffering from her CSA Trauma, and most likely doesn't know it. My IC has suggested that she suffers from a mental illness, possibly a combination of BPD, and PTSD - but she is unlikely to acknowledge it. 

It is good news that your wife is addressing her CSA issues, so that in of itself is a huge step in the right direction.

You'll read in book Allies in Healing, that sex is usually one of the last things that a survivor will be able to deal with during her healing process,.... so realistically - you better be prepared to deal with this. 

The ball is in her court, and totally depends on the progress of her recovery and healing. In my experience, the harder you try to initiate or encourage sex, the more she will push you away and blame you for trying to manipulate her. 

I have heard of rare situations where intimacy and sex improved after a survivor had successfully worked on their CSA issues,..... however I would say a much smaller percentage than the relationships where the survivor did not work on the CSA trauma and the sex either didn't improve at all or even got worse and non-existant.

Maybe I'm wrong about this.... but it sure has been my life the past 4 years of marriage and 6 years after our daughter was born. It's also something I've read in book after book, and didn't want to believe for the longest time.

My W has no indication that she needs to or wants to work on her CSA Trauma, and would rather blame me for all her unresolved feelings and unhappiness. I am working on accepting the reality that there is no saving our marriage.

Sorry if my reality gives you concern, but it may be the dose of incentive to work on taking care of yourself and continue to support your W in her healing.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

It may take a few years for a CSA survivor to get their sh!t together through therapy well enough to begin to work on a normalized sex life. I'll grant that easily. But I refuse to believe, Refuse To Believe, that only a small percentage of those seeking help and desirous of change actually get there.

It's hard work.
It's scary.
Confronting shame, hatred, rage,.... Not fun and no fair we have to go through all this.

But it CAN BE DONE!!!


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## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Someone help out a stupid thick-headed male here....
> 
> My wife is one of a minority of women whose libido went absolutely through the roof at the onset of perimeno.
> 
> ...




I am just getting a chance to read this thread but , Yes.....Yes....Yes. Someone,... anyone,.... please give this man three golden stars. I did not consider how my libido has gone threw the roof since my change as well. But it is true, and I do go through the same thing at work, supermarkets you name it. I feel like I should lock myself up somewhere, and then I go to my husband and his like.....meh. I don't feel like it.....FOR MONTHS ! They don't get it, sometimes I can actually feel myself
vibrating just below my skin, I'm so in need and It's awful. 

Thank you for writing this.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Wow OP. Reading your story was as if I wrote it myself. My wife is LD and while it isnt quite as bad as yours, its no where near where I would like it to be. The past 2 nights have been bad because she initiated sexual flirting in the afternoon, but of course when bedtime came, she just wanted to sleep.

I am an easy man to please. 2 nights a week of passionate sex and I'm on cloud 9. Of course I'd love it more than that, but I can be reasonable. I just dont understand how thats not an easy goal to accomplish. Its less than an hour a week doing something that no only incredibly pleases your spouse, but gives you insane pleasure as well. I dont get it.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You have decided not to divorce. You are not broken, so you cannot be fixed. Maybe trying to fix you will break you. Your wife is taking her time in therapy. But after a certain age in life people do not easily change by conscious decision.

Spontaneous developments from hormonal change with age might stimulate desire. But you can live on some vague hope.

Basically, you are screwed as things stand.

You can detach from your wife emotionally and see if that will wake her up or give you the strength to divorce. 

It will not be good for your children for this to continue. You have a responsibility to plan to get out.


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## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

eccentric said:


> I am also recommending the MMSL.
> I have been on the MMSL MAP for a few months now.
> I have noticed some change in our relationship in that we are now having sex. Usually I get the feeling that my wife is not into it and she will try and skip the foreplay and go straight to the end.
> But the main gains from MMSL have been in myself -and this is huge! I am a lot more confident and positive that I will survive this. It would be nice if my wife came along too.


Can someone tell me what MMSL and MMSL MAP mean. 
Thank you.


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## Really!?!? (Sep 14, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> It may take a few years for a CSA survivor to get their sh!t together through therapy well enough to begin to work on a normalized sex life. I'll grant that easily. But I refuse to believe, Refuse To Believe, that only a small percentage of those seeking help and desirous of change actually get there.
> 
> It's hard work.
> It's scary.
> ...


Anon, I agree - and sorry if I implied that very few survivors heal from their CSA trauma.

I'm not a therapist, and I don't have hard facts or numbers that support a "small percentage" of survivors who seek help,... actually heal. All I've read and researched, is that a "majority" of survivors tend to not recover from this. My IC was the one who pointed this out to me,... and she said that it is a very small percentage that actually seek help, and of that percentage, the few that actually seek help, do successfully heal. I am only repeating what she has told me in the years of IC I have done with her. I'm not saying it can't be done. I agree, it can be done!

My IC just told me today, that very few survivors have the Courage To Heal, because they don't want to relive the trauma, the horrific memories, the haunting feelings associated with the CSA, the shame, the pain, the fear,... therefore they avoid seeking help and defer to coping mechanisms, transference, projection, shadowboxing, etc,......

I hope she is wrong, and that a much higher percentage of survivors actually do heal. I wish my W was one of them for the love of God. I love that women so much that it is has virtually killed me the past 13 years trying to keep our marriage together.

Of the more recent posts regarding increased libido during perimeno, etc,.... I didn't see anything relating to Child Sexual Abuse in those posts,... so perhaps we're getting a little off topic on OP's thread.

CSA Trauma for one or both spouses in a marriage, is an all together completely different and highly complex dynamic, on top of "normal" sexual issues in a relationship.

As a partner of a CSA survivor who has had several "normal" relationships prior to my marriage, where Child Sexual Abuse was not an issue for my partner at the time,.... all I can tell you is that you have no idea how much more complex, difficult, and painful for both partners the CSA trauma is in a relationship, unless you've walked in our shoes.

Agoodman, if you're still reading - I hope you can gain some wisdom and insight in terms of what's ahead for you. I believe your W can heal, and with your patience, persistance, and support, you can save your marriage, or at least say you gave it your all even if it does not work out for your marriage.

Based on some of your latest comments and frustration regarding a sexless marriage,.... I think you need to drastically re-evaluate your expectations. I have lived and understand your sexual frustration,... and the course you are taking right now will only further push your W away and deeper into her dispair.

IMO - you need to REALLY educate yourself on CSA Survivors and their trauma, and how it effects their marriages/relationships. I say this, because I wasted YEARS trying to "solve" our intimacy connection, thinking from a "normal" relationship perspective. Wrong, wrong, wrong,...... I really should have been trying to communicate with her, from a supporting forum where she was receptive, and where the CSA was openly discussed and acknowledged. That never happened for us,.... and we never really got off on track towards a mutual healing direction.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Leelan said:


> Can someone tell me what MMSL and MMSL MAP mean.
> Thank you.


Married Man Sex Life (MMSL) and the MMSL Marriage Action Plan (MAP).
Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Really!?!? said:


> My IC just told me today, that very few survivors have the Courage To Heal, because they don't want to relive the trauma, the horrific memories, the haunting feelings associated with the CSA, the shame, the pain, the fear,... therefore they avoid seeking help and defer to coping mechanisms, transference, projection, shadowboxing, etc,......
> 
> I hope she is wrong, and that a much higher percentage of survivors actually do heal. I wish my W was one of them for the love of God. I love that women so much that it is has virtually killed me the past 13 years trying to keep our marriage together.
> 
> ...


No worries, I didn't take offense at all.

Healing is multi pronged. If the CSA survivor starts IC with the thought of healing, she'll forever be stuck in healing. Maybe I did it backwards? I didn't seek help for healing from CSA. I wasn't coping with life in general, all aspects. I had to learn general coping skills that were healthy.

Once that was done, I was able to recognize how my behavior had played a huge role in the dysfunction to begin with. So I was able to secondarily recognize how my new coping skills weren't so much helping me get along better, but helping me to FURTHER recognize current aspects that weren't working and seek ways to make them work.

My marriage was distant, we fought a lot. His issue always came back to sex. Okay, now I can see how I might play a role in that issue. I had to examine why I never wanted to have sex AND I had to seek the truth of the matter, who he as also multi pronged.
One, I wasn't attracted to him. Two, I never masturbated and didn't have orgasms. Well I couldn't do anything to make myself feel attracted to him but I could learn to be a more sexual person. 

And that's when I hit the wall, realizing, "oh sh!t! To do that, become a more sexual person, I would have to examine sh!t I refused to examine" and was not able to even admit to my therapist I had these issues. So I cheated.. Instead of reading about abuse I read about healthy sexuality. I already knew the effects of abuse. I didn't have a clue what healthy sexuality looked like and I didn't even know there was a such a thing as healthy sexuality!!!! I really thought it was all bad and men were pigs. Sorry men...

I read developmental psychology, I read text books about puberty, I read about women's sexuality. I went to the library and read the courage to heal. Wouldn't take it out and wouldn't buy it because my secret would come out. I read about orgasms and ready about body image dysmorphia. I began to examine my body and learned to do that without hatred or disgust but with an appreciation for the gentle curves, the soft skin, examining my body with new eyes.

All the while my secret remained a secret. No one knew the extent of how CSA affected me and neither did I. It wasn't important how it affected me, but it was important that I stop letting it affect me.

Maybe that's backwards. Maybe I lucked out. But as I learned what healthy looked like, everything just fell into place. I had a solid picture of what I wanted so that's what I worked for.

Let's take being touched, in a sexual way. A man, my husband, touching my breasts. It felt good and I liked it, but it also disgusted me. Cause remember, men are pigs. Sorry men. A strange man touching my breasts I didn't want him to. Well has anyone ever grabbed your hand and maybe they shouldn't have? You might turn around and think why did you do that? Maybe a slight feeling of violation at invading personal space... But Sheeshe, it's just your hand? Why do we place such high value on personal space? Why do we easily shake off someone touching our hand but if they touch a breast....oh hell no! Why do I not feel repulsed when my husband grabs my hand but do feel repulsed when he touches my breast? Personal space? Sexual touch? Who cares why, it didn't make sense. Get rid of that violated feeling because it's not true to the situation. As I learn to touch my breasts, realize it also feels good, I am alone and safe, I learn the difference between violation and sharing. Once I feel safe to share my self with myself, I learn to feel safe sharing myself with my husband. And it all progressed from there.

Maybe my methodology was wrong. But it worked. So I can't help feeling that seeking help to heal must mean the goal is to be whole and examining what happened and how it affected isn't anything more than learning to rely on excuses. Well this happened so that's why. Who cares what or why? What do you want? Healthy sexuality? Then that's what you learn, that's what your practice and that's what you live.


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## Really!?!? (Sep 14, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Healing is multi pronged. If the CSA survivor starts IC with the thought of healing, she'll forever be stuck in healing. Maybe I did it backwards? I didn't seek help for healing from CSA. I wasn't coping with life in general, all aspects. I had to learn general coping skills that were healthy.
> 
> Maybe that's backwards. Maybe I lucked out. But as I learned what healthy looked like, everything just fell into place. I had a solid picture of what I wanted so that's what I worked for.
> 
> Maybe my methodology was wrong. But it worked. So I can't help feeling that seeking help to heal must mean the goal is to be whole and examining what happened and how it affected isn't anything more than learning to rely on excuses. Well this happened so that's why. Who cares what or why? What do you want? Healthy sexuality? Then that's what you learn, that's what your practice and that's what you live.


Thanks for the explanation AP!!! It speaks volumes! I see so many similarities in your words, that my W has lived.

I think you actually may have found a more productive way in healing, than many IC's have attempted. I agree, the clinical approach of examining the how's and why's, tends to further traumatize the survivor. What good comes out of this?

I beleive the key to your success, is that you made the effort, in your own way, and on your own terms. Good for you!!!



> And that's when I hit the wall, realizing, "oh sh!t! To do that, become a more sexual person, I would have to examine sh!t I refused to examine" and was not able to even admit to my therapist I had these issues.


This is the dilemna my W has,... she has no desire or courage to re-visit her CSA memories or deal with the side effects from them. She would rather focus on issues in our marriage. I am not even aware if she's told her IC about her CSA. She told me a couple months ago, all she discusses with her IC are issues in our marriage, most of which are transference, projection, and shadowboxing from her unresolved trauma feelings.

My IC is helping me "detach with love", and focus more on taking care of myself. As much as I love and care for my W, I needed to stop trying to fix her, and let her work on what she needs to, if she at some point becomes aware of needing to. 

Right now, she is 100% focused on moving out at some point, and divorcing. She said 3 months ago that she would be moving out as soon as she found a place, which hasn't happened. I have stopped trying to talk her out of it. I think she needs to do this, to run, to escape, and hopefully find her "way" of healing. She is broken right now, and all of our family and friends have seen it for years,.... no one has ever been able to help her through it. This makes sense, because unless she is willing to do the work and make the effort, things will never change.

It's a sad chapter in our lives, especially for our 6 year old daughter. I am mourning the loss of what I thought my life was going to be like, growing old with the woman I love, and sharing family memories and times together.

Thanks again AP, your shared experiences have helped me process my situation.


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## Agoodman (Sep 4, 2012)

I have noticed these comments have really gone off. I am under the impression there is little hope of my sex life improving to a level I thought it would/should be at. 

I am upset how this is all coming up now when I am 38. She is almost 40 and this is supposed to be her time of sexual peak. I still have the sex drive of a 17 year old. We talked about her sexual abuse involving her grandfather in the past. All the summer trips where he would take advantage of her when they were in a car. Years ago I recommends she talk to her sister who also went on the same trips. She found out her sister also was abused. They talked about it and thought of telling her parents. They both decided not to because it would break her fathers heart because he was the one who encouraged them to vacation with his father during the summer. My wife thought things would change once her grandfather died. He died several years ago and I noticed there was no dramatic change. Her parents still do not know and probably never will. As far as my sex life with my wife, We seemed to be fine for years. Not perfect, but fine. 

She was very active when we tried to get pregnant. I whipped out the camera and was able to film some of it and it was quite a turn on for me. 

Fast forward two children later...the sex just dried up so slowly before my eyes. 

I thought it was something with me until my wife suddenly admitted-to be depressed. I encouraged her to go to counseling..with me. We have been going to close to a year now. She likes going to talk to the therapist. I am just wondering when, if ever, I am going to see my wife make a first step in initiating anything intimate. Anything. Now that I am reading articles, threads, books, and seeing a therapist....I am coming to the realization that I now have to re-learn how to interact with the woman I have been with for 20 years. It's almost like my wife was in a major crash and sustained head trauma and is a different person in CERTAIN respects. This is really messing with my mind. 

As far as my 17 year old sex drive...I do not know what I am going to do considering things could take YEARS. I try to figure out how to get through each day without intimacy from my wife. To think I have to be patient for years seems unreal. I get frustrated that my wife who I've known cares little of this new situation I have been force into. Being in this separate situation makes me get crazy thoughts of finding a mistress to just get relief as I wait for my wife to heal. How ridiculous is that. My motivation right now to stay is my kids. I do not want them to live in a split house. I also fear if I do divorce and my wife finds someone else, will he endure what I am enduring? Will she never remarry? I am insanely jealous at the thought of someone else with my wife, particularly some one making love to my wife with MY KIDS sleeping across the house. That thought enrages me. Essentially, I am not ready for divorce...maybe for the wrong reasons. 

I am in a holding pattern right now wondering what to do to make things better. I have not cheated. I am going to counseling. She is going to counseling, and we are trying to give the kids a good life. As far as my relationship with my wife, we still sleep in the same bed. I call her during the day to see how it's going. We share responsibilities around the house. I ask about her day when she comes home with my youngest. We interact with the kids like a normal family. There is always that gorilla in the room about OUR intimacy. Whenever I try to initiate something ( a mere French kiss), it's hard for her. It's hard for me now....what do I do....


Just putting some thoughts out there. 

A goodman


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Did you read this other threads?

Cheesepuff has a thread about his wife and her therapy. His wife is really trying and working.

I'm so sorry you must feel terrible about this and also guilty that you feel this way. I hear you trying to be supportive and it seems you might be questioning her "therapeutic work ethic" wondering when she expects to graduate.

Therapy has been one year so far. I would suggest you give it another 6 months before you start wondering out loud just how deeply she intends to heal? But in the meantime, why can't she cuddle with you?


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## Really!?!? (Sep 14, 2013)

Agoodman said:


> I have noticed these comments have really gone off. I am under the impression there is little hope of my sex life improving to a level I thought it would/should be at.
> 
> I am upset how this is all coming up now when I am 38. She is almost 40 and this is supposed to be her time of sexual peak.


Don't give up hope - there is no predetermined timeline or expectations on anyone's sexual activity. It has a life of it's own, and with the added complexity of your W's CSA, expect the unexpected! My suggestion: try to improve communication and connection with your W, and put the sex on the back burner. The more you push the sex issue, the more it will push her away at this point. Ask your IC to be sure.



> My wife thought things would change once her grandfather died. He died several years ago and I noticed there was no dramatic change. Her parents still do not know and probably never will.


My W's grandfather was also her abuser, and a couple years after he died, I noticed things actually got worse in our marriage. I believe that my W, could no longer direct anger his way (because he was dead), and I started noticing more anger directed my way, projection, transference, shadowboxing,.... and because she couldn't blame me for the CSA, she focused on other "normal" marital issues to vent her unresolved haunted feelings: money, trust, communication, connection, intimacy, listening to her, not listening to her, being there, not being there,.... pretty soon she started making stuff up to be pissed at me for. I actually started pointing out things she was telling her friends about me that were totally false - when I confronted her on these lies (in front of her friends), it totally floored her, she couldn't respond, and then just became enraged.

Your W' parents not KNOWING, is a HUGE problem - I believe. The books I've read and IC advise I've had, all have indicated that the parents either sweeping it under the rug, denying the CSA, or not knowing can be equally damaging to a CSA survivor as the abuse itself. Again, talk to your IC about this,....

My W has huge resentment towards her mother, for not protecting her before and after her CSA between ages 4 - 9, and also 35 years after for "minimizing" the CSA and it's side effects. This has become a big issue right now, as I have had discussions with the W's mother about this, and we had several intense conversations about her daughter's behavioral dysfunctions not only in my marriage, but her relationships within her immediate and extended family. My W's parents' lack of support, protection, and validation, has scarred my wife's self esteem, confidence, and trust in her entire childhood, adolescence, and adult life. It's really traggic actually,.... and I wish she and her parents were strong enough to acknowledge this and take the appropriate measures to heal.

Instead, they prefer to focus on my working too hard, being responsible, loving, giving, and caring,... oh - that's right, they think I'm a POS CO-DEPENDENT!!!!! :slap:

By the way, the W's younger sister was also abused by the sick [email protected] grandfather, and the W's mother admittedly has blocked out what she thinks was CSA on her. She can't remember,.... which is terrible. My IC says that CSA rarely skips generations, and the W's mother most likely has had severe CSA Trauma and can't even acknowledge that part of her past reality. Some scary stuff here,.....



> Fast forward two children later...the sex just dried up so slowly before my eyes.


Having children, and with CSA Survivors, will have this effect. You are not alone in this happening to.



> I am just wondering when, if ever, I am going to see my wife make a first step in initiating anything intimate. Anything. Now that I am reading articles, threads, books, and seeing a therapist....I am coming to the realization that I now have to re-learn how to interact with the woman I have been with for 20 years. It's almost like my wife was in a major crash and sustained head trauma and is a different person in CERTAIN respects. This is really messing with my mind.



:iagree:
You hit the nail on the head here. Did you read Haunted Marriage yet? Your wife has either consciously or subconsciouly let her "complex emotional security system" down, that has been suppressing all her CSA Trauma and bad feelings from her childhood. Letting her defenses down, typically happens later in adult life for a survivor, when they are in a more serious trusting relationship like marriage and having children. Ironically, getting married and having children together, has created an opportunity for her guard to lower, which in-advertantly creates problems and trust issues in your marriage, when you should actually be growing closer together.

She can't dis-associate the bad CSA feelings from the past, with the present, so it complicates her intimacy connection with the person closest to her,.... uh, that would be you. 



> As far as my 17 year old sex drive...I do not know what I am going to do considering things could take YEARS. I try to figure out how to get through each day without intimacy from my wife. To think I have to be patient for years seems unreal. I get frustrated that my wife who I've known cares little of this new situation I have been force into.


Let me give you some advice from my perspective and experience,... I felt exactly the same way you did for a long time. I became resentful for the lack of intimacy, sex, returned affection,... and guess what - it bit me in the ass and drove my W further away from me. Don't make that mistake. Worse than the lack of sex, is the lack of love - which she will eventually lose for you if you make her feel bad for not having sex with you. Remember what happened to her, and acknowledge that it was horrific and traumatic for her. 

Take a mental pill, and suppress your sexual frustration right now. It will be really hard!!!!! But if you don't, it will destroy your marriage. I think your W can heal, and you need to try and be supportive in that journey. Be sure you have a qualified IC and MC who specializes in CSA. Not all therapists are the same, and not all are good at what they do. That'd be a fact!!!



> Being in this separate situation makes me get crazy thoughts of finding a mistress to just get relief as I wait for my wife to heal. How ridiculous is that. My motivation right now to stay is my kids. I do not want them to live in a split house. I also fear if I do divorce and my wife finds someone else, will he endure what I am enduring? Will she never remarry? I am insanely jealous at the thought of someone else with my wife, particularly some one making love to my wife with MY KIDS sleeping across the house. That thought enrages me. Essentially, I am not ready for divorce...maybe for the wrong reasons.


I have the exact same concerns!!!!! Do what you can to stay married and help your W where/when she will accept help.



> I am in a holding pattern right now wondering what to do to make things better..... There is always that gorilla in the room about OUR intimacy. Whenever I try to initiate something ( a mere French kiss), it's hard for her. It's hard for me now....what do I do....


1. Make sure you both have qualified counselors,.... I've made the mistake of not speaking with several different IC's early on, and came to find out that many of them were even more messed up than me!

2. Educate yourself - read books specifically on CSA and CSA for partners: Allies in Healing, Haunted Marriage, The Sexual Healing Journey, etc,....

3. Research some other Threads on TAM - I have read hours worth of valuable information here, that would have taken me months/years in IC and a small fortune, to learn about CSA and issues related to partners of survivors. In all honesty, there is some incredible advice I've gotten from partners of CSA survivors on TAM, that my IC didn't even know about, nor could relate to. How many IC's do you know of have experienced the real life affects of any specific psychological disorders or issues that you are seeking advice on from them? :scratchhead:

4. Work on communication with your W, try to connect with her emotionally every day,.... without any sexual expectations. Don't pout if you don't get sex. Be an emotional rock for her. Encourage her that she can talk to you (about anything, especially the CSA), and that she can trust you.

And see what your IC has to say about all this


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## Agoodman (Sep 4, 2012)

Soooooo. As an update....After a year of marriage counseling where we branched off and started going separately, and sometimes together, this is where we are at. 

Its been a very rocky year emotionally. We have both figured out different things about ourselves. My wife's defense mechanism is going into lockdown mode. I apparently have a patient side and an impatient side. The impatient side wants to leave her or cheat on her. The patient side wants to wait and see things through and hopes everything will get better. The way I measure our closeness is in sexual acts. Go figure. While we are on that topic, I have not had sex for almost a year. I sometimes get a BJ when my wife is somewhat willing. I just want a sense of closeness with my wife. I beginning to feel the "it'll get worse before it gets better" stage. I am feeling the sense of I am nonexistent as she is doing whatever she does to heal. I am doing my best to be as supportive as possible. I can be all nice and sweet to her until the sexual frustration begins. I became irritable and impatient. When I get some sexual satisfaction, I can be nice and sweet again because I had my release. 

Things are so hard at times. Sometimes I just want to throw in the towel and so I gave it my best. Sometimes I get so frustrated with her and her situation. Just tonight, I tried to talk to her and it seemed to aggravate me. I hate how she judges me as If I am some neanderthal who just wants sex and that is all. To her, in my mind, sex is bad and not part of a marriage. She does not like talking about it. 

Our wedding anniversary is coming up and so is her 40th Birthday. Part of me wants to really do something nice for her birthday, the other part wants me to say f-it and do nothing. 

I just hope it will get better. 

-Agoodman


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Agoodman said:


> Soooooo. As an update....After a year of marriage counseling where we branched off and started going separately, and sometimes together, this is where we are at.
> 
> Its been a very rocky year emotionally. We have both figured out different things about ourselves. My wife's defense mechanism is going into lockdown mode. I apparently have a patient side and an impatient side. The impatient side wants to leave her or cheat on her. The patient side wants to wait and see things through and hopes everything will get better. The way I measure our closeness is in sexual acts. Go figure. While we are on that topic, I have not had sex for almost a year. I sometimes get a BJ when my wife is somewhat willing. I just want a sense of closeness with my wife. I beginning to feel the "it'll get worse before it gets better" stage. I am feeling the sense of I am nonexistent as she is doing whatever she does to heal. I am doing my best to be as supportive as possible. I can be all nice and sweet to her until the sexual frustration begins. I became irritable and impatient. When I get some sexual satisfaction, I can be nice and sweet again because I had my release.
> 
> ...


Celebrate her birthday but don't make a big deal of it


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You explain your reasons for not wanting divorce. But why are you treasuring a sexless marriage. One day you will not get erections and then it will be too late to remarry.

If you put divorce on the table while you still feel love and desire for your wife, if she responds you will still be able to reconnect. If you wait until your feelings are dried up like a stale walnut, you will have nothing to offer her. You are doing your wife a disservice by not acting.

Tryingto2FigureitOut,

I thought you had left TAM. Did your wife rediscover her libido? Or did you divorce? Please don't say you are still working on it.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

So I don't know all the details about her issues, but I have a question for you. What happens if you give her an ultimatum- sex or you leave? I mean how would things be worse than they are now? Your wife doesn't seem like she has much motivation to change, and you seem miserable. You think this is good for your kids?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Hope is not a good strategy.

A woman will never get turned on by a husband who accepts a wife who does not feel its necessary to be sexual.

You are free from the headache of trying to meet your wife's needs. What are you going to do with it?


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

She still believes you want it more than she does. And you do. And that's the problem. You need to get her to want it more.

Counseling hasn't worked. All the other things (trying to please her, backing off an not bothering her for sex, etc.) hasn't worked.

Were it me, it would be time to put her on her own. You seem to have given it your best...at least in the traditional sense of going to counseling, trying to work on issues, etc. Now it's time to show her the door.

Have you read Married Man Sex Life or No More Mister Nice Guy? I haven't, as I haven't had a "need" to, but I have read good things about these books here, and some have had pretty good results with it. If you haven't done this yet (sorry, didn't go back through the entire thread to read it again), give it a try. Maybe one last thing to attempt before you either accept your fate and live a loveless and sexless life, or show her the door and find a loving mate. 

You are 40? And a year without sex? Don't get to be in your 50's before you make the decision to leave, because when that happens, and you meet someone new and start having sex like a wild man, you're going to really regret giving up a lot of good years of the ability to have a positive, sexual, loving relationship with someone who has a strong desire to meet your needs and desires.

You sound like you've got it together fairly well. Fit, probably decent looking, good job, good guy. At your age, you're not going to last long "on the market". You see, 40's is the age a lot of men and women are escaping from loveless, terrible marriages. And when they find someone new, and things are so radically different from their bad marriages, it is usually greatly appreciated and not taken for granted.

It's tough to separate when you have kids. Fortunately for me, I didn't have to make that decision, it was made for me. She did something unforgiveable, and there was never a moments hesitation about what I had to do (leave her for good). It was years before I dated again, but about your age I hit the ground running. And I KNEW so much more than I did the first time. Knew the red flags to look out for not only about relationships in general, but the red flags regarding a LD woman. They rarely seem LD in the beginning, but you can weed them out if you look hard enough for the flags. Once I did that, and saw the warning signs, these potential LD mates got dropped like a scalding hot rock. Did it once (lived in a sexless LD marriage) and WILL NOT EVER do it again.

And who knows...once your wife figures out you also will not live like that, and you start taking REAL and concrete actions to separate yourself from her and leave (not bluffs), it may just re-awaken her attraction for you in her once she realizes what she has lost, and may not be able to get back.


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## Agoodman (Sep 4, 2012)

I am still here. My wife and I are still in counseling. I am doing it to be supportive of her. She goes very week and it finally getting into the tough ****. As for me, I am doing the best I can dealing with the situation. As long as my wife is going to counseling, I know she is trying. As far as my perspective on things, my wife has had a ****ed up childhood from abuse from her grandfather. She has been programmed that sex is bad. How we got this far is beyond me. As far now, there are all new rules for us because of her history. As far as reading the married man sex life books. I started reading it and realized that does nothing for my situation. My wife was introduced to sex by being raped by her grandfather. Following the recommendations in that book do nothing for my situation. As I read through it, I realized I am doing nearly everything in there. 

Believe me, the option of divorce is always there. I think I need to give my wife a chance. She is trying. I owe it to her and our kids. If I start threatening divorce to her, I'm sure it will push her farther away from me and set us back even farther. I am hoping in the next year, there is real progress in our marriage. If there is little change, I will seriously reconsider the option of divorce. I never saw this in a thousand years having to think about this. This is new to me. I am a traditional guy who believes in marriage. 

-Agoodman


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

OP from one "good man" (my wife's words) to another... and to ALL MEN in sexless marraiges

*Are you 100% certain there is no other man involved?*

That was the reason for my sexless marriage and went on for four years after ILYNILWY three at least with the OM daily via texts day and night in my wife's mind she fell in love with him.
If there is another man nothing you are doing is getting through to your wife shes in* la la land.* Using you.

I was you too trusting and "no way was my wife cheating"... well she cheated to the extent of falling in love with him (by her admission) and that means she was sexually unavailable to me. they most likely had sex or something I don't see any man hanging wasting time with her that long with her with nothing in return physically from her..shes hot. She claims otherwise but obviously the result was a sexless marriage like yours. In love with me but not in love with me.

After discovery her texting him twice "I LOVE YOU First Last" and "Morning kisses??" minutes before I checked her phone she had a choice OM or me..she chose me even after I strongly encouraged her to go with him. Now she has to play by my rules including a absolutely a good sex life for life or I am gone. She has a few months fall back in love with me and to turn our sexlife around and not cheat anymore or lie. She claims she loves me so it shouldn't be a problem without the OM on her mind 24/7/365


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> OP from one "good man" (my wife's words) to another...
> 
> *Are you 100% certain there is no other man involved?*
> 
> ...


I will add.

There is NOTHING YOU CAN DO to get through to her. The only thing you can do is cut off contact and support and cut off communication. She will get it after a while, and if she doesn't she will at least be heavily discomforted enough to make her thing.

It will sting her.

Nothing else you can do or say will do anything to her.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

How long does her therapist believe it will take for her to feel healthy sexual desire?

If and when her desire for sex surfaces, how likely does the therapist believe that you will be the target of attraction?

Isn't it also likely that overcoming the childhood trauma will make her a new person in some ways. Won't she want to celebrate the newness with a new man? Why would she want you, someone she associates with the trauma?


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

treyvion said:


> I will add.
> 
> There is NOTHING YOU CAN DO to get through to her. The only thing you can do is cut off contact and support and cut off communication. She will get it after a while, and if she doesn't she will at least be heavily discomforted enough to make her thing.
> 
> ...


I second treyvion's point save yourself YEARS of future agony and make her do something now!

Its the only way!

People change because they want to...make her want to. Make her think about her life.
What you have going for you is you...make her make a choice you or not you...and follow through either way. Say to your lovely wife calmly *"we need to talk about splitting I cannot do this anymore".*..and go from there. (Don't say divorce...splitting makes her think there is a possible chance and less harsh or confrontational)

Otherwise I can assure you everyday misery...and you cannot appeal to her in that state.

Please listen to me OP... I lived it. But catching my wife red handed with proof I gave her an hour to decide no talk needed.

I credit you for staying but for the love of man be ok with losing your wife! She needs to know she need to step up to the plate and be your loving and sexual wife or NOT.

She is the damaged goods not you.

If it is an OM its an addiction...end her addiction.
Do not let her wriggle out ..you or not...its simple.


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

Op, I am new to your thread, just read through it and a couple things caught my eye. I know she is dealing with an abusive past, but...

You said that she really changed after the birth of your second child. Has she ever had her hormones checked. It is not uncommon for women's hormones to take a hit during pregnancy and not go back to normal levels after birth, thus post partum depression. Many times we are able to handle things, like your wife did, but if our hormones get out of whack those things can become mountains we cannot climb. If this happens, our hormones could stay out of balance for months or years unless we do something to correct it. In addition to this, she is also getting to the age where she could start into, or already, peri menopause any time. 

These hormones can wreak havoc on us. I went into deep depression a couple of times because of these little buggers. It may, or may not help, but at the very least I would have a complete hormone panel done.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

JustHer said:


> Op, I am new to your thread, just read through it and a couple things caught my eye. I know she is dealing with an abusive past, but...
> 
> You said that she really changed after the birth of your second child. Has she ever had her hormones checked. It is not uncommon for women's hormones to take a hit during pregnancy and not go back to normal levels after birth, thus post partum depression. Many times we are able to handle things, like your wife did, but if our hormones get out of whack those things can become mountains we cannot climb. If this happens, our hormones could stay out of balance for months or years unless we do something to correct it. In addition to this, she is also getting to the age where she could start into, or already, peri menopause any time.
> 
> These hormones can wreak havoc on us. I went into deep depression a couple of times because of these little buggers. It may, or may not help, but at the very least I would have a complete hormone panel done.


Agree she should get medically checked however that is soley her decision and its not OPs business to tell his wife what to do. Have her make her own choices by adjusting to your own actions and you do what you have to do.


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Agree she should get medically checked however that is soley her decision and its not OPs business to tell his wife what to do. Have her make her own choices by your own actions do what you have to do.


Lighten up dude. I wasn't suggesting that he hog tie her and force her. 

Of course he needs to discuss it with her. I did not read that she has had any tests done. The mind and body are very connected but most counselors never suggest that a physical condition could have an impact on their issue, just like most physicians don't consider the mental health of a patient they are treating for a physical issue.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

JustHer said:


> Lighten up dude. I wasn't suggesting that he hog tie her and force her.
> 
> Of course he needs to discuss it with her. I did not read that she has had any tests done. The mind and body are very connected but most counselors never suggest that a physical condition could have an impact on their issue, just like most physicians don't consider the mental health of a patient they are treating for a physical issue.



Talking or discussing DOES NOT HELP..I lived through OPS situation in a four plus year sexless marriage

I am telling him he need to be in charge of himself and get to the point he can leave his wife then force her to make a decision Him or not.

Nothing else matters she is broken...

You are suggesting what would be nice to check... there is nothing nice about a sexless marriage and it requires a certain way of dealing with it.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I did not read all of the thread so this may have been mentioned before. Thor, a member of TAM, is a secondary surveyor of CSA too. I don't know if he has posted on this thread yet. I've included a link to one post of his posts that may be helpful. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/physic...vivor-childhood-sexual-abuse.html#post1107035


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> OP from one "good man" (my wife's words) to another... and to ALL MEN in sexless marraiges
> 
> *Are you 100% certain there is no other man involved?*



Sadly, yes.

I have this wild fantasy that I'll come home unannounced one day and find interesting things happening since the Mrs. works from home... No dice. 
Besides, our home has a pretty sophisticated CCTV security system...


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> Sadly, yes.
> 
> I have this wild fantasy that I'll come home unannounced one day and find interesting things happening since the Mrs. works from home... No dice.
> Besides, our home has a pretty sophisticated CCTV security system...


Sorry John..good luck


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Tell me about it. 

Unfortunately wife's near twin (11 months apart lolz) sister got all the HD's in the family but bought the farm prematurely a few years ago during a car accident in the process of PA'ing. This ended up sending their mom into the Beyond as well a couple years later and was instrumental in triggering BPD in my wife. Her father is still kicking in his 80's and having fun - according to the rumor mill - with his housekeeper. 

The skeletons people keep in their closets... Maybe I should sell the story to HBO or Lifetime Movie Network for a miniseries.


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