# Fascinating -- Hugh Hefners first wife cheated



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Anyone who has been cheated on understands how it changes you so this really comes as no surprise, but it is a what if. In a sense you could say this one women's betrayal changed society. For the better?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Ha! You beat me to it. 

I wonder if she is still alive?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> Ha! You beat me to it.
> 
> I wonder if she is still alive?


Apparently, she's still kickin', also at 91 years of age.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I edited my post as I swear sometimes when I read how different what I type is from what I am actually typing I think I have brain damage. (No comments!)

After thinking about this my one thought is Ester Peal can go **** herself. (too harsh?)


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

I guess my early masturbatory sessions as a youth have to thank this woman. Even if she is a no good cheater


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

What many here may not understand is that wives of famous and rich people accept the cheating in return for a great lifestyle as long as it is discreet. Pitt Bull's wife said that with all the hot girls throwing themselves at her husband, she expected him to have sex with some. She is quoted as saying that what the eyes do not see, the heart cannot feel.

We are taught that cheating is the ultimate sin. It is not, we just believe it is. My wife has a lifestyle that she never dreamed she could have. She told me not to tell and she will never ask. All she wanted was a phone call to let her know if I was not coming home that night. When I got too involved with a girlfriend my wife hooked me up with her best friend to have sex so that she had some control over who and where. That worked out well so my wife moved her girlfriend into our home and joined us in bed. We lived like that for 30 years of our 45 year marriage. We all think it was great and now that we are no longer with our girlfriend, my wife and I miss it.

We always put our marriage ahead of all else, even monogamy. We ended up playing with others as a couple after my wife discovered her bisexuality and urge to see what sex is like with someone other than me. We never viewed having sex with someone else as more than just sex. We have both watched each other with other people and when we get home the sex is intense for weeks. Luckily she said I was more than enough and could never orgasm with anyone else. Yea me.

Keep in mind that your morality is not necessarily everyone else's. Look at us, we are still very happily married and all of our siblings and friends divorced on the monogamy version of marriage. You know the one, the one society gives us with no alternatives and which fails 50% of the time. We would not go on an airplane that may crash half of the time but we sign up for a lifelong contract that costs a lot emotionally and financially, to you, your spouse and your children. Is that really better than allowing an occasional fling? I think not. In total, my wife and I have been with less than 10 people sexually in our 45 years of marriage. I know monogamous married men who would consider that a slow year. Humans are really serially monogamous. We destroy any existing relationships to start a new one. No room for sharing and keeping both relationships. All or nothing which stems from a feeling of ownership of our spouses whether we say so or not. She is mine. She belongs to me. Our language is peppered with words to display ownership. What is funny is that the writers of the Bible were not monogamous. Some may have had one wife, but they had a lot of concubines. 

Hey, if monogamy works for you, that is great but half of the married people on this forum will be divorced within ten years because they rather go down with the monogamy ship than find another ship to stay afloat on. Whatever works is great, but I often am attacked by strict monogamous, the same type that were holier than thou and attacked me decades ago. They are all divorced and I am not, yet they still feel they are morally superior visiting their kids from one or three previous marriages. Many rather cheat and divorce within the monogamy structure of marriage than loosen it up once in a while. As long as a short fling was the exception rather then the rule, sex with someone else was not a deal killer. Whatever works for you is fine but the wives of many people rather look the other way than face the truth and have to save face by divorcing. I dated a few married women a long time ago whose husband looked the other way. The girlfriend my wife and I shared and who lived with us on and off, was married for 23 years of the 30 years we were together. We even socialized with her husband and went on vacation with them. Kind of weird when he handed over his wife to us so he could gamble on his own, but we had fun.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Yep he was a man who started out living by the expectations and rules of society. He was raised in home full of repression, was a virgin until age 22, married the first woman he ever slept with and found out the life he had been told he needed to live was a deadening slog. Thank goodness the guy had the wherewithal to learn the lesson that we should never live for anyone else.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Middle of Everything said:


> I guess my early masturbatory sessions as a youth have to thank this woman. Even if she is a no good cheater


I guess I'm more thankful to Larry Flynt, though I think he has been married numerous times. Not sure how many, if any, cheated.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

She was just cheating for the articles.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Hugh Hefner always reminded me of someone who is somewhat conservative deep down, heck he ran a very successful business.

The people he gathered around him however provided the drama and interest in his life while he himself just sorta watched and never let it interfere with work. Not unlike Andy Warhol. 

He is in also in some ways the opposite of famous evangelists or a Bill Cosby who behave like Angels in public and Demons in their personal life. 

Tamat


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Apparently Hefner and his wife had not yet married at the time she cheated. I guess they were engaged, but she cheated on him while he was stationed elsewhere during WWII writing for an Army magazine. This article states that after their marriage she allowed him to date other women. 

Okay...


Mildred Williams, Hugh Hefner?s Ex Wife: 5 Fast Facts You Need to*Know


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Vinnydee said:


> What many here may not understand is that wives of famous and rich people accept the cheating in return for a great lifestyle as long as it is discreet. Pitt Bull's wife said that with all the hot girls throwing themselves at her husband, she expected him to have sex with some. She is quoted as saying that what the eyes do not see, the heart cannot feel.
> 
> We are taught that cheating is the ultimate sin. It is not, we just believe it is. My wife has a lifestyle that she never dreamed she could have. She told me not to tell and she will never ask. All she wanted was a phone call to let her know if I was not coming home that night. When I got too involved with a girlfriend my wife hooked me up with her best friend to have sex so that she had some control over who and where. That worked out well so my wife moved her girlfriend into our home and joined us in be. We lived like that for 30 years of our 45 year marriage. We all think it was great and now that we are no long with our girlfriend, my wife and I miss it.
> 
> ...


He wasn't rich and famous at the time. Seems like his intention was to have a monogamous marriage. Her cheating changed his mind. His parents were ministers if I remember correctly.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Michael Jordan said his drive to be the greatest basketball player of all time was fueled by those who cut or doubted him. Every time he stepped onto the court, he was shaming everyone who didn't totally believe in him at some point in his life. Even after winning multiple championships and being called the greatest of all time while still playing, he was determined to show those people, who he hadn't even interacted with for a decades.

I wonder if Hef's behavior was more than just a loss of faith in monogamy, but also a lifelong desire to rub his exes nose in it -- "Look, babe, I can outcheat you times a thousand! Not only that, I get to do it with the most desirable women on the planet! And I get my choice all day, every day! Hey, look, I'm still getting twentysomethings in my seventies! Eat that, *****!"

Did he simply never outgrow the trauma of that experience?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Michael Jordan said his drive to be the greatest basketball player of all time was fueled by those who cut or doubted him. Every time he stepped onto the court, he was shaming everyone who didn't totally believe in him at some point in his life. Even after winning multiple championships and being called the greatest of all time while still playing, he was determined to show those people, who he hadn't even interacted with for a decades.
> 
> I wonder if Hef's behavior was more than just a loss of faith in monogamy, but also a lifelong desire to rub his exes nose in it -- "Look, babe, I can outcheat you times a thousand! Not only that, I get to do it with the most desirable women on the planet! And I get my choice all day, every day! Hey, look, I'm still getting twentysomethings in my seventies! Eat that, *****!"
> 
> Did he simply never outgrow the trauma of that experience?


Does it matter? Maybe the experience was the fertilizer that fueled his growth? While we don't see people like Hugh Hefner here all the time, what we do see is a lot of people who allow themselves to be shaped negatively by their experiences, all the while clinging to the expectations of society. In Hefner's case though he appeared to blossom and grow and in the process changing the way many think about sex.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Ynot said:


> Does it matter? Maybe the experience was the fertilizer that fueled his growth? While we don't see people like Hugh Hefner here all the time, what we do see is a lot of people who allow themselves to be shaped negatively by their experiences, all the while clinging to the expectations of society. In Hefner's case though he appeared to blossom and grow and in the process changing the way many think about sex.


It only matters as a point of curiosity, and only then as a minor one. I wasn't in any way trying to diminish his impact or think differently about it. But now that you mention it, maybe his reaction wasn't really "growth" after all but sheer revenge or an unquenchable thirst for validation from external sources (something many people are guilty of). Again, that doesn't change the result in any way--it is what it is regardless of what's behind it.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It only matters as a point of curiosity, and only then as a minor one. I wasn't in any way trying to diminish his impact or think differently about it. But now that you mention it, maybe his reaction wasn't really "growth" after all but sheer revenge or an unquenchable thirst for validation from external sources (something many people are guilty of). Again, that doesn't change the result in any way--it is what it is regardless of what's behind it.


I agree that it is only a matter of curiosity. But I doubt his life's work was vengeful or a means of seeking validation. it appears that he just threw off the yoke of societal expectation and decided to go his own way. I think many should be inspired by his example, rather than going thru life as pilotless drones acting and living in ways others expect. Most every problem we see here on TAM (as well as marriage itself) is a result of societal expectations. Many would do well to follow his lead and chart their own course in life.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Here is the article:

Hugh Hefner dead: The 'devastating' marriage betrayal that turned Playboy founder into a serial ladies man | The Independent

"However, the betrayal loomed over their marriage and Williams gave her husband permission to sleep with other women; a decision that would forever skew his views on the institution and sexuality. "

She gave him quite the hall pass - but that didn't work apparently.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Ynot said:


> I agree that it is only a matter of curiosity. But I doubt his life's work was vengeful or a means of seeking validation. it appears that he just threw off the yoke of societal expectation and decided to go his own way. I think many should be inspired by his example, rather than going thru life as pilotless drones acting and living in ways others expect. Most every problem we see here on TAM (as well as marriage itself) is a result of societal expectations. Many would do well to follow his lead and chart their own course in life.


I certainly agree with the sentiment about chucking others' expectations and being your own person. And there is not doubt Hef did exactly that--but not with full integrity. In more than one of his relationships (be they wedded or not), he flat out cheated after (at least according to the women in question) he promised to be true. So he wasn't always above board. (Yes, it was foolish for said ladies to think they would suddenly be his one and only, but that doesn't obviate his words not matching his deeds). 

I would find his legacy to be more impressive if he did exactly the same thing, but with integrity. (with regard to the whole "throwing off the shackles thing, not the objectification thing).


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It only matters as a point of curiosity, and only then as a minor one. I wasn't in any way trying to diminish his impact or think differently about it. But now that you mention it, maybe his reaction wasn't really "growth" after all but sheer revenge or an unquenchable thirst for validation from external sources (something many people are guilty of). Again, that doesn't change the result in any way--it is what it is regardless of what's behind it.


I think he took the hall pass she gave him and ran with it. Plus living with that much temptation at the office - even if she didnt give him a hall pass why would he feel compelled to be faithful to her ever again anyway?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Was Hefner starting Playboy a good thing for our society? 

I would say no. There were a lot of skin mag publishers out there when he came along, but Hefner was the guy who legitimized it. He made objectifying women cool and over the decades got the world to buy off on it. He was a smooth operator. Had he not paved the way, Bob Guccione and Larry Flynt would have never been the successes they were. Hefner legitimized the pornification of our American culture, and on the grand weigh-scales of the universal time continuum, I don't think it was a positive thing for us.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Was Hefner starting Playboy a good thing for our society?
> 
> I would say no. There were a lot of skin mag publishers out there when he came along, but Hefner was the guy who legitimized it. He made objectifying women cool and over the decades got the world to buy off on it. He was a smooth operator. Had he not paved the way, Bob Guccione and Larry Flynt would have never been the successes they were. Hefner legitimized the pornification of our American culture, and on the grand weigh-scales of the universal time continuum, I don't think it was a positive thing for us.


I also dont think his wifes pre-marital infidelity motivated the rest of his life - money and lots of women were his motivators IMO. Plus it always creeped me out that he handed his business over to his daughter.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I also dont think his wifes pre-marital infidelity motivated the rest of his life - money and lots of women were his motivators IMO. Plus it always creeped me out that he handed his business over to his daughter.


Yeah, that did seem strange.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Yeah, that did seem strange.



His whole aura was creepy IMO.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Yeah, that did seem strange.


Yeah and she took it to the next level and just made all the Playboy TV programming pure porn. No softcore there...she didn't mess around.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah and she took it to the next level and just made all the Playboy TV programming pure porn. No softcore there...she didn't mess around.


Well, I'm sure it was a business decision pure and simple--what's going to be the greatest possible source of revenue. The gender of the decision maker shouldn't be too much of a surprise--some pimps have always been madams.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think he took the hall pass she gave him and ran with it. Plus living with that much temptation at the office - even if she didnt give him a hall pass why would he feel compelled to be faithful to her ever again anyway?


I think this is probably accurate.

Would sort of be interesting to find out what SHE thinks of her decision to betray a guy who was obviously staying loyal to her at the time........and the subsequent path it led to.

Especially if the stories/articles are accurate and they both were deeply in love with each other originally.

I think her hall pass was pure desperation because she knew he was leaving otherwise......and then it seems he paid her back in spades.

Wonder if she thinks that war time fling was worth it now?

I would suspect no.....

In fact, I think A LOT of cheaters come to really regret their actions later in life.

Know for sure my Dad's mom did.....she completely lost her brothers and one of her sons out of the deal (my Dad never forgave her).


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Hefner told Daily Mail: “I had literally saved myself for my wife, but after we had sex she told me that she’d had an affair. That was the most devastating moment in my life. My wife was more sexually experienced than I was. After that, I always felt in a sense that the other guy was in bed with us, too.”

With all the threads on "The history of your partner doesn't matter." Seems like Hefner got fed a crap sandwich like a lot of people going into marriage. Real nice of her to not tell him until AFTER they had sex. He could have at least been able to try find someone else who was a virgin.

As far as being engaged, I viewed that as being married.

Just another example of one partner being honest & upfront & getting figuratively screwed.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> Hefner told Daily Mail: “I had literally saved myself for my wife, but after we had sex she told me that she’d had an affair. That was the most devastating moment in my life. My wife was more sexually experienced than I was. *After that, I always felt in a sense that the other guy was in bed with us, too.*”
> 
> With all the threads on "The history of your partner doesn't matter." Seems like Hefner got fed a crap sandwich like a lot of people going into marriage. Real nice of her to not tell him until AFTER they had sex. He could have at least been able to try find someone else who was a virgin.
> 
> ...


Yeah, the bolded kinda takes some of the nobility out of his having changed society for the better by casting off societal expectations. He simply made the transition from abused to abuser.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

I would suspect he also felt the massive waste of years when he could have been having good sex.

It's similar to when a mans wife starts an affair after years of denying sex to the husband.

Did hef ever publish the name of the guy his wife cheated with?

Tamat


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Yep he was a man who started out living by the expectations and rules of society. He was raised in home full of repression, was a virgin until age 22, married the first woman he ever slept with and found out the life he had been told he needed to live was a deadening slog. Thank goodness the guy had the wherewithal to learn the lesson that we should never live for anyone else.


What is wrong with being a virgin at 22???
I think he was an odious man who had no moral values or integrity at all. I wont mourn his loss that's for sure.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> What is wrong with being a virgin at 22???
> I think he was an odious man who had no moral values or integrity at all. I wont mourn his loss that's for sure.


I think part of the question is would he have had the same life if he hadn't been burned so badly by his wife.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> I think part of the question is would he have had the same life if he hadn't been burned so badly by his wife.


Lots of people get cheated on, but they keep their integrity.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Was Hefner starting Playboy a good thing for our society?
> 
> I would say no. There were a lot of skin mag publishers out there when he came along, but Hefner was the guy who legitimized it. He made objectifying women cool and over the decades got the world to buy off on it. He was a smooth operator. Had he not paved the way, Bob Guccione and Larry Flynt would have never been the successes they were. Hefner legitimized the pornification of our American culture, and on the grand weigh-scales of the universal time continuum, I don't think it was a positive thing for us.


Thank you for this, Bandit. I agree. (In addition, I agree with some of the others here who found him a repulsive creep.)


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> What is wrong with being a virgin at 22???
> I think he was an odious man who had no moral values or integrity at all. I wont mourn his loss that's for sure.


There is so much wrong with being a virgin at 22 that I cannot even begin to get started. For one it is against nature (or God if you believe that hocus pocus). Nature (or God) gives us a sex drive, to deny that is to deny life.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Was Hefner starting Playboy a good thing for our society?
> 
> I would say no. There were a lot of skin mag publishers out there when he came along, but Hefner was the guy who legitimized it. He made objectifying women cool and over the decades got the world to buy off on it. He was a smooth operator. Had he not paved the way, Bob Guccione and Larry Flynt would have never been the successes they were. Hefner legitimized the pornification of our American culture, and on the grand weigh-scales of the universal time continuum, I don't think it was a positive thing for us.


I disagree. The pics in Playboy were always done with taste. I can't say the same for Penthouse or (especially) Hustler. Bob Guccione was a cheap imitation.. Larry Flynt was just a sleaze bag. I would say that the average woman was probably more objectified before Playboy came along. Prior to the mag, women were for the most part just considered to be baby makers (especially after WWII) who's jobs were to take care of the house and feed the kids. Playboy allowed people to start to see women as being sexual beings in their own right. Playboy just happened along at the right time as the sexual revolution was just starting off and it went along for the ride.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Ynot said:


> There is so much wrong with being a virgin at 22 that I cannot even begin to get started. For one it is against nature (or God if you believe that hocus pocus). Nature (or God) gives us a sex drive, to deny that is to deny life.


Being a virgin at the age of 22 isn't the end of the world. My wife was a virgin until she was a few months shy of turning 25.

That said in her case there was some baggage involved.

She was raised Catholic and had a father who had no hesitation calling her nasty words for a loose woman and prostitute, from the time she reached puberty.

Then when she moved out of home to do a STEM degree, her father told her that she must be a prostitute. Since according to him, any unmarried woman who moves out of home would only do that to work as a prostitute. 

Yet she was chaste and remained chaste in part to prove him wrong, and because she was raised to believe she ought to save herself for marriage. In the end though she stopped believing in the Catholic religion, then thought all religion was nonsense and later came to the conclusion that there was no evidence for any god/s either.

Then her father died and she thought **** it, I am not going to save myself for marriage anymore. So she started having sex with this guy she knew from her previous job. Not long after that she asked me out, dumped the other guy and started having sex with me. At first I found she was quite awkward, a bit clumsy and rather inexperienced, yet she got up to speed and has been a tremendous non-vanilla sex partner through 21+ years ever since.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> There is so much wrong with being a virgin at 22 that I cannot even begin to get started. For one it is against nature (or God if you believe that hocus pocus). Nature (or God) gives us a sex drive, to deny that is to deny life.


Being a virgin at 22 shows that the person has self control and good moral values. Its not against God who says that sex is for marriage. My husband was a virgin till he married at 25, I love him for that.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Lots of people get cheated on, but they keep their integrity.


Not disagreeing in the least!


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Personal said:


> Being a virgin at the age of 22 isn't the end of the world. My wife was a virgin until she was a few months shy of turning 25.
> 
> That said in her case there was some baggage involved.
> 
> ...


Good for you and for her. I am sure she regrets waiting that long once she found out how pleasurable the act is.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Being a virgin at 22 shows that the person has self control and good moral values. Its not against God who says that sex is for marriage. My husband was a virgin till he married at 25, I love him for that.


When did God say that?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Here is some more info about his ex:

Mildred Williams, Hugh Hefner’s Ex Wife: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know

*"After she and Hefner divorced, Mildred didn’t stay single for long, going on to marry a second time. Hefner, meanwhile, developed his iconic image as the suave playboy surrounded by a bevy of women.

According to IMDB, Mildred’s “second husband, Edwin Gunn, adopted” Hefner’s two children for a time, “but the children changed their names back to Hefner after Mildred and Gunn separated.”*

Just an odd situation all around. I get why his wifes affair before marriage might lead him to explore other women. I never understood how a virgin could marry a non virgin and not be curious of what other partners would be like and a bit envious that their partner got to experience it. That being said he didn't just satisfy his curiosity he lived in a defacto bordello for the next half century. I contend that his wifes affair might have been part of the motivation to seek other woman but the money and endless supply of women to his bedroom is what his main motivators were.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Lots of people get cheated on, but they keep their integrity.


Agreed but his talents allowed him to make millions and live a party lifestyle for a half century so the thought of his "poor wife" never entered the equation I would think for Hef. How many BHs would bed playmates if they could after their wife's affair? He opened the door to a whole level of temptation most people can only dream about. I'm not defending him but his skills in marketing and business allowed him a lifestyle few can attain.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Good for you and for her. I am sure she regrets waiting that long once she found out how pleasurable the act is.




I don't know anyone who regretted waiting for sex till they were with the right one.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agreed but his talents allowed him to make millions and live a party lifestyle for a half century so the thought of his "poor wife" never entered the equation I would think for Hef. How many BHs would bed playmates if they could after their wife's affair? He opened the door to a whole level of temptation most people can only dream about. I'm not defending him but his skills in marketing and business allowed him a lifestyle few can attain.


There are loads of BH's who wouldn't bed women like that. 
Making millions our of something as damaging as porn and immorality doesnt seem like a good thing to me and where has it got him?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> When did God say that?


Many times in the Bible. Sex was always to seal the marriage covenant.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Ynot said:


> Good for you and for her. I am sure she regrets waiting that long once she found out how pleasurable the act is.


Thanks and my wife does regret waiting so long before she had sex.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> There are loads of BH's who wouldn't bed women like that.
> Making millions our of something as damaging as porn and immorality doesnt seem like a good thing to me and where has it got him?


I'd wager there are even more who would. >

i never said it was a good thing but his skills allowed him to live the party lifestyle well beyond when he should have. He was great at marketing himself and Playboy.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Ynot said:


> I disagree. The pics in Playboy were always done with taste. I can't say the same for Penthouse or (especially) Hustler. Bob Guccione was a cheap imitation.. Larry Flynt was just a sleaze bag. I would say that the average woman was probably more objectified before Playboy came along. Prior to the mag, women were for the most part just considered to be baby makers (especially after WWII) who's jobs were to take care of the house and feed the kids. Playboy allowed people to start to see women as being sexual beings in their own right. Playboy just happened along at the right time as the sexual revolution was just starting off and it went along for the ride.


This could work both ways--making Hef even worse than the others. Everyone knows Flynt and his product were pure sleaze. But Hef, by objectifying women "with taste" helped legitimize it. He brought sexual objectification out of the gutter and into the mainstream. Not necessarily a positive legacy. 

And while it's be good to recognize that women are sexual beings in their own right, that's not how most people took it. The average guy fapping to a centerfold wasn't thinking about _her _sexuality or how she's more than a baby factory or any other level of equality among the sexes; he's thinking about wanting to poke her, purely for her physical attractiveness--her other attributes aren't part of the equation.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I'd wager there are even more who would. >
> 
> i never said it was a good thing but his skills allowed him to live the party lifestyle well beyond when he should have. He was great at marketing himself and Playboy.


What a shame he didn't use his skills for something that was beneficial to society. 
I dont think that many men would stoop so low as to have sex with women who were basically prostitutes.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> I don't know anyone who regretted waiting for sex till they were with the right one.


There have been quite a lot of women and men on here who have regretted getting married before"sowing their wild oats", and in fact many cheated or got cheated on because of it. How many scenarios have we seen where a 30s or 40s aged woman starts cheating in order to live the party life she missed out on?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> What a shame he didn't use his skills for something that was beneficial to society.
> I dont think that many men would stoop so low as to have sex with women who were basically prostitutes.


I'm not arguing he is a statesman or anything - but millions of men bought those magazines - so yeah a lot of BHs would date a playmate..hell pro athletes marry them...


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Many times in the Bible. Sex was always to seal the marriage covenant.


The Bible was written by man. Did God tell you specifically to wait?


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TX-SC said:


> There have been quite a lot of women and men on here who have regretted getting married before"sowing their wild oats", and in fact many cheated or got cheated on because of it. How many scenarios have we seen where a 30s or 40s aged woman starts cheating in order to live the party life she missed out on?


I think it has to make the "virgin" spouse a bit envious that their experienced spouse had fun that they didnt...it ate away at Hefner if you believe him but he took it to an extreme lol


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> This could work both ways--making Hef even worse than the others. Everyone knows Flynt and his product were pure sleaze. But Hef, by objectifying women "with taste" helped legitimize it. He brought sexual objectification out of the gutter and into the mainstream. Not necessarily a positive legacy.
> 
> And while it's be good to recognize that women are sexual beings in their own right, that's not how most people took it. The average guy fapping to a centerfold wasn't thinking about _her _sexuality or how she's more than a baby factory or any other level of equality among the sexes; he's thinking about wanting to poke her, purely for her physical attractiveness--her other attributes aren't part of the equation.


Without a doubt many a man wanked off in lust at the women in the mag. But as I said before we more or less lived in a button down world, where women were expected to cook and clean and make babies and not much else. Playboy and the sexual revolution that ushered it into the mainstream did more for women than Gloria Steinem and the most of the other feminists ever did. And certainly more than the televangelists have ever done.
As for me, I read it strictly for the articles 0


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I don't know anyone who regretted waiting for sex till they were with the right one.


We've already established that you don't know too many people, other than those who agree with you, so that is not surprising.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> There have been quite a lot of women and men on here who have regretted getting married before"sowing their wild oats", and in fact many cheated or got cheated on because of it. How many scenarios have we seen where a 30s or 40s aged woman starts cheating in order to live the party life she missed out on?


Maybe some on here, but we have never regretted not sleeping around. Not have my friends who married young and are still happily married after 40 or more years. People who had many partners are actually more likely to cheat in marriage than those who didn't. I read that recently.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Playboy was nothing really new or extraordinary. TV and movies, pinup girls, etc. all sensationalized the female form way before Playboy was created. At least he did it in a tasteful way, leaving a lot to the imagination.

I grew up looking at my dad's Penthouse and Hustler magazines. I had no interest in Playboy because as a teenager, I wanted to see it all right there in front of me. I learned a lot about female anatomy that way. By the time I was 18, although I had only been with one REAL girl, I had seen more women's private parts than most men see in a lifetime. Of course, this was before the internet.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Maybe some on here, but we have never regretted not sleeping around. Not have my friends who married young and are still happily married after 40 or more years. People who had many partners are actually more likely to cheat in marriage than those who didn't. I read that recently.


You and your husband were both virgins on your wedding night? I respect that.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> We've already established that you don't know too many people, other than those who agree with you, so that is not surprising.


You are wrong. I have mixed with all sorts of people in my life.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> Maybe some on here, but we have never regretted not sleeping around. Not have my friends who married young and are still happily married after 40 or more years. People who had many partners are actually more likely to cheat in marriage than those who didn't. I read that recently.


I think some people are just predisposed to cheat. But, as I told my wife recently, I am okay with my number, but if that number was one (only her), I would be just as happy.

My only point is that it's a bit naive to think that nobody regrets the choice to only have one lover their entire life. It happens quite often in fact.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I'm not arguing he is a statesman or anything - but millions of men bought those magazines - so yeah a lot of BHs would date a playmate..hell pro athletes marry them...


I am sure that some men would date a prostitute, but many wouldn't touch women like that.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> I think some people are just predisposed to cheat. But, as I told my wife recently, I am okay with my number, but if that number was one (only her), I would be just as happy.
> 
> My only point is that it's a bit naive to think that nobody regrets the choice to oy have one lover their entire life. It happens quite often in fact.


 It depends on the sort of person they are.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Ynot said:


> Without a doubt many a man wanked off in lust at the women in the mag. But as I said before we more or less lived in a button down world, where women were expected to cook and clean and make babies and not much else. Playboy and the sexual revolution that ushered it into the mainstream did more for women than Gloria Steinem and the most of the other feminists ever did. And certainly more than the televangelists have ever done.
> As for me, I read it strictly for the articles 0


We can divide the so-called sexual revolution into two parts. One part was the liberation of the masses from the repressed sexual mores of the past. The other part was the move toward equality between the genders. 

Hef certainly pushed the former, but I maintain that he was a detriment to the latter. The direct and blatant presentation of women purely as sex symbols in direct conflict with the idea of women being overall equals and having value beyond their physical attributes. 

Even with regard to the former, he may have done more harm than good, as the purely sexual representation of women itself reinforced the notion that women exist primarily for men's pleasure, which is a continuation of the misogynistic thinking of the past.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TX-SC said:


> I think some people are just predisposed to cheat. But, as I told my wife recently, I am okay with my number, but if that number was one (only her), I would be just as happy.
> *
> My only point is that it's a bit naive to think that nobody regrets the choice to oy have one lover their entire life. It happens quite often in fact*.


Agreed especially if their spouse has had experiences..do i think promiscuity is good? nope..but I understand curiosity..

The experienced spouse in many cases had satisfied their curiosity


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Hero? No, Hugh Hefner's legacy is utterly toxic for women | Daily Mail Online


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Hero? No, Hugh Hefner's legacy is utterly toxic for women | Daily Mail Online


But didn't these women volunteer to pose for his magazine? Do they have any responsibility at all?

i think Hefners legacy is that of a pornographer but he didnt force them into his magazine did he?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> We can divide the so-called sexual revolution into two parts. One part was the liberation of the masses from the repressed sexual mores of the past. The other part was the move toward equality between the genders.
> 
> Hef certainly pushed the former, but I maintain that he was a detriment to the latter. The direct and blatant presentation of women purely as sex symbols in direct conflict with the idea of women being overall equals and having value beyond their physical attributes.
> 
> Even with regard to the former, he may have done more harm than good, as the purely sexual representation of women itself reinforced the notion that women exist primarily for men's pleasure, which is a continuation of the misogynistic thinking of the past.


You left out the importance of the birth control pill. That is what really started it.


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> We can divide the so-called sexual revolution into two parts. One part was the liberation of the masses from the repressed sexual mores of the past. The other part was the move toward equality between the genders.
> 
> Hef certainly pushed the former, but I maintain that he was a detriment to the latter. The direct and blatant presentation of women purely as sex symbols in direct conflict with the idea of women being overall equals and having value beyond their physical attributes.
> 
> Even with regard to the former, he may have done more harm than good, as the purely sexual representation of women itself reinforced the notion that women exist primarily for men's pleasure, which is a continuation of the misogynistic thinking of the past.


I would think that is a matter of perspective. The fact is that he turned over control of his empire to his daughter, not his sons. When she retired nearly 40% of the executives were women. There are not many corporations which can boast of something similar.
You can say he promoted sexual freedom at the expense of gender equality, but the reality is he helped crack the glass ceiling. Regardless of how, he helped uncork the genie.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> You are wrong. I have mixed with all sorts of people in my life.


And amazingly enough all of those who disagree with your BELIEFS are heathen, immoral sinners who sleep around and cheat on their spouses but you don't mix with those people. So please, stop your never ending pious moralizing over things you know absolutely nothing about.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> But didn't these women volunteer to pose for his magazine? Do they have any responsibility at all?
> 
> i think Hefners legacy is that of a pornographer but he didnt force them into his magazine did he?


No but they are not representative of most women.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> No but they are not representative of most women.


Agreed - most people in the sex industry are not representative of most people both male and female.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> And amazingly enough all of those who disagree with your BELIEFS are heathen, immoral sinners who sleep around and cheat on their spouses but you don't mix with those people. So please, stop your never ending pious moralizing over things you know absolutely nothing about.


I mix with all sorts of people who have done all sort of things in the past. I have almost certainly seen and experienced far more than you in life, so stop assuming that you know me, you don't.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agreed - most people in the sex industry are not representative of most people both male and female.


A pretty high percentage of people use porn.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Ynot said:


> I would think that is a matter of perspective. The fact is that he turned over control of his empire to his daughter, not his sons. When she retired nearly 40% of the executives were women. There are not many corporations which can boast of something similar.
> You can say he promoted sexual freedom at the expense of gender equality, but the reality is he helped crack the glass ceiling. Regardless of how, he helped uncork the genie.


Busting the glass ceiling is definitely cool. But may not mean so much if you're not one of his executives. And as I said before, many pimps are actually madams.

In an interesting parallel, Trump's companies have an excellent record of recognizing, promoting, and paying talent among their female employees. I don't recall anybody highlighting that fact when discussing his otherwise abhorrent behavior.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> A pretty high percentage of people use porn.


It is a multibillion dollar industry and what I meant was the performers not the users...


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I mix with all sorts of people who have done all sort of things in the past. I have almost certainly seen and experienced far more than you in life, so stop assuming that you know me, you don't.


Really? So tell me about my life experience. I am fascinated to know how you know so much about me. The very large difference between you and I, is that you allow your self to be limited and boxed in by your religion. It colors of every one of your moralizing posts. I really don't need to know anything more about you other than you are religious zealot with no tolerance for us "heathens".


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I am sure that some men would date a prostitute, but many wouldn't touch women like that.


Yeah, that probably explains why it is the world's oldest profession - no customers!


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

TX-SC said:


> I think some people are just predisposed to cheat. But, as I told my wife recently, I am okay with my number, but if that number was one (only her), I would be just as happy.
> 
> My only point is that it's a bit naive to think that nobody regrets the choice to only have one lover their entire life. It happens quite often in fact.


So the post you were responding to. First off having sex before marriage was morphed into "sleeping around". Then followed up with a "people who like the color blue are more likely to pick the color blue" statement that proves nothing other than the posters obvious bias.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Ynot said:


> Really? So tell me about my life experience. I am fascinated to know how you know so much about me. The very large difference between you and I, is that you allow your self to be limited and boxed in by your religion. It colors of every one of your moralizing posts. I really don't need to know anything more about you other than you are religious zealot with no tolerance for us "heathens".


Although I don't always agree with what Diana has to say, she is a valuable part of this community and her posts are no more acceptable or unacceptable than any other poster. She has strong views about what is morally right. Not surprisingly, she echoes the views off a very large part of the world.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

TX-SC said:


> Although I don't always agree with what Diane has to say, she is a valuable part of this community and her posts are no more acceptable or unacceptable than any other poster. She has strong views about what is morally right. Not surprisingly, she echoes the views off a very large part of the world.


Well I agree that she echoes the views of a large part of the world, that is not necessarily a good thing. IMO, religion has done more damage to more people than practically any other man made construct. Particularly her brand of "holier than thou" judgmental religion. So yes I find many of her posts to be unacceptable, as they display mind numbing adherence without a bit of actual thought or empathy, which is a far cry from any message Christ was alluded to state.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Ynot said:


> Well I agree that she echoes the views of a large part of the world, that is not necessarily a good thing. IMO, religion has done more damage to more people than practically any other man made construct. Particularly her brand of "holier than thou" judgmental religion. So yes I find many of her posts to be unacceptable, as they display mind numbing adherence without a bit of actual thought or empathy, which is a far cry from any message Christ was alluded to state.


She has beliefs and sticks to them. I recommend perhaps not having thin skin in this matter. Have your own beliefs and allow her to have hers. Both views should be welcomed and acknowledged. Your own personal beliefs on religion need not be used as a weapon against those you disagree with. Argue your points, but don't call out posters and try to discredit them.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

TX-SC said:


> She has beliefs and sticks to them. I recommend perhaps not having thin skin in this matter. Have your own beliefs and allow her to have hers. Both views should be welcomed and acknowledged. Your own personal beliefs on religion need not be used as a weapon against those you disagree with. Argue your points, but don't call out posters and try to discredit them.


I don't have any personal beliefs. I have knowledge. And yes, sometimes posts need to be discredited, such as her tweaking having sex before marriage into sleeping around.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Ynot said:


> I don't have any personal beliefs. I have knowledge. And yes, sometimes posts need to be discredited, such as her tweaking having sex before marriage into sleeping around.


Then call out the statement, not the poster.

Your knowledge is okay, but faith based beliefs are okay too. I'm a scientist, but I don't discredit a belief system that has been around for thousands of years.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Idk. Most men it seems, still choose to get married and cherish that one, true love. If that weren't the case, you'd all still be sleeping around with as many women as you could find, and not seeking to get married. And this site wouldn't exist


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

TX-SC said:


> Then call out the statement, not the poster.
> 
> Your knowledge is okay, but faith based beliefs are okay too. I'm a scientist, but I don't discredit a belief system that has been around for thousands of years.


When the poster establishes a pattern, it is easier to debunk the poster and kill the pattern than to object to every statement. 

And as far as that belief system that has been around for thousands of years - it doesn't exist. I am sure the early Christians would be spinning in their graves over what Christianity has become, as would most any other early adherants to any particular religion.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

TX-SC said:


> I think some people are just predisposed to cheat. But, as I told my wife recently, I am okay with my number, but if that number was one (only her), I would be just as happy.
> 
> My only point is that it's a bit naive to think that nobody regrets the choice to only have one lover their entire life. It happens quite often in fact.


Myself being one example. Do I regret not sleeping with other women besides my wife before marriage? Yes. Yes and Yes. Most of this is due to the fact I dont believe it is in any way special to her. Would she claim otherwise? Yes. But long story short, I very strongly believe that is just lip service.


Truthseeker1 said:


> Agreed especially if their spouse has had experiences..do i think promiscuity is good? nope..but I understand curiosity..
> 
> The experienced spouse in many cases had satisfied their curiosity


Exactly. I could have satisfied my curiosity and IMO had zero consequences. There are zero drawbacks in my opinion to sleeping around. 

So unless its a religious situation where both partners expect and appreciate that both of them are virgins then I see no value in having a spouse be your only one. In fact I see only negatives.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Well I agree that she echoes the views of a large part of the world, that is not necessarily a good thing. IMO, religion has done more damage to more people than practically any other man made construct. Particularly her brand of "holier than thou" judgmental religion. So yes I find many of her posts to be unacceptable, as they display mind numbing adherence without a bit of actual thought or empathy, which is a far cry from any message Christ was alluded to state.


I have to laugh when I see this. More damage huh? Probably more the half of the hospitals and institutions of learning in the western world were started by religion. Religious people and religious institutions. By some estimates communism killed over 90 million people in the 20th century. Here read. That is the huffingtonpost by the way not CBN.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

sokillme said:


> I have to laugh when I see this. More damage huh? Probably more the half of the hospitals and institutions of learning in the western world were started by religion. By some estimates communism killed over 90 million people in the 20th century. Here read. That is the huffingtonpost by the way not CBN.


Yes, more damage. More damaged as in years of suffering needlessly in guilt, self loathing, feeling like a failure to live up to the ideals (which were devised by some man anyways) and not to mention the disruption of a real relationship with your creator. So yeah, more damage. In fact one could argue that communism was a direct result of religion, since its founder believed that religion was the opioid of the masses and tried to wipe it out. So yeah, more damage. Religion is just another way of saying you are going to live for some one else. And that some one else is NOT God, because God did not create religion - man did. God gave you the gift of your self, to give it away to someone else is a travesty. So laugh away, the joke is on you!


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TX-SC said:


> Although I don't always agree with what Diane has to say, she is a valuable part of this community and her posts are no more acceptable or unacceptable than any other poster. She has strong views about what is morally right. Not surprisingly, she echoes the views off a very large part of the world.


Agree 100% - she makes valuable contributions and her views are fine with me. We all have our own perspective. Diane please keep posting!


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Middle of Everything said:


> Myself being one example. Do I regret not sleeping with other women besides my wife before marriage? Yes. Yes and Yes. Most of this is due to the fact I dont believe it is in any way special to her. Would she claim otherwise? Yes. But long story short, I very strongly believe that is just lip service.
> 
> Exactly. I could have satisfied my curiosity and IMO had zero consequences. There are zero drawbacks in my opinion to sleeping around.


Were you your wifes first?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Really? So tell me about my life experience. I am fascinated to know how you know so much about me. The very large difference between you and I, is that you allow your self to be limited and boxed in by your religion. It colors of every one of your moralizing posts. I really don't need to know anything more about you other than you are religious zealot with no tolerance for us "heathens".[/QUOTE[
> I dont know much about you, just as you know practically nothing about me. My faith is important of course and it has shown me how important it is to have good morals and honesty and to stand up for faithful marriage, against casual sex and things like porn. I have learnt that those things just bring pain and suffering and I am very sad to see how sex has become so skewed and misused over time.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agree 100% - she makes valuable contributions and her views are fine with me. We all have our own perspective. Diane please keep posting!


Thank you, I sometimes feel its a battle.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Were you your wifes first?


No. Not many, but how many is another topic and opens up the what counts as sex can of worms.
Told me one guy one time early on and what ensued after we talked more contributes to why I regret not experiencing other women and why I dont believe she in any way values herself being my only.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> When the poster establishes a pattern, it is easier to debunk the poster and kill the pattern than to object to every statement.
> 
> And as far as that belief system that has been around for thousands of years - it doesn't exist. I am sure the early Christians would be spinning in their graves over what Christianity has become, as would most any other early adherants to any particular religion.


And yet the Christians I know are the most kind caring people, who constantly put themselves out to help and support others. I think the early believers would be pretty happy with that.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Middle of Everything said:


> No. Not many, but how many is another topic and opens up the what counts as sex can of worms.
> Told me one guy one time early on and what ensued after we talked more contributes to why I regret not experiencing other women and why I dont believe she in any way values herself being my only.


Has she beena good and faithful wife since you have been married?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Well I agree that she echoes the views of a large part of the world, that is not necessarily a good thing. IMO, religion has done more damage to more people than practically any other man made construct. Particularly her brand of "holier than thou" judgmental religion. So yes I find many of her posts to be unacceptable, as they display mind numbing adherence without a bit of actual thought or empathy, which is a far cry from any message Christ was alluded to state.


My views arent shared by a large part of the world, you can see that even on this forum.
Christianity has helped so many people I know. Bought them healing and restoration and help and support. Changed their lives for the good and put them in a family. Given them fresh starts and new beginnings. I know a couple who actually used to be into crime, making porn etc and now they are all for Jesus. Their lives turned around. it brings nothing but good. 

The reason that I believe that good morals are so important isn't all to do with my faith, its to do with what I have seen around me, the messes people make of their lives by the way they live and the decisions they make. I have lived my way and Gods way, I know which is best. I have seen in my own family the destruction bought by unfaithfulness and lies and porn use etc. 

Its just makes me sad to see things like porn and skewed sex ruining peoples lives and marriages. Sex is so special, showing our love to our partner.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> Then call out the statement, not the poster.
> 
> Your knowledge is okay, but faith based beliefs are okay too. I'm a scientist, but I don't discredit a belief system that has been around for thousands of years.



My husband is also a scientist and a strong Christian. :smile2:


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Has she beena good and faithful wife since you have been married?


Oh very much so. And I love her very much.

But as to the question of whether I regret not sleeping with other women? Yes. I dont believe she values her being my only. And that to me is the only value I can find in her being my only.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> My husband is also a scientist and a strong Christian. :smile2:


Double engineer here, as well as a strong Christian......speaking of my belief,. of course my actions are not always admirable. 

I feel so sad for those who feel better by blaming religion for the evils of the world. 

Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

This thread has taken some strange twists and turns.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

And I only read it for the articles and cartoons. ...lol

Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Middle of Everything said:


> Oh very much so. And I love her very much.
> 
> But as to the question of whether I regret not sleeping with other women? Yes. I dont believe she values her being my only. And that to me is the only value I can find in her being my only.


I can see why you would regret it. Try not to let any resentment build up.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> Hefner told Daily Mail: “I had literally saved myself for my wife, but after we had sex she told me that she’d had an affair. That was the most devastating moment in my life. My wife was more sexually experienced than I was. After that, I always felt in a sense that the other guy was in bed with us, too.”
> 
> With all the threads on "The history of your partner doesn't matter." Seems like Hefner got fed a crap sandwich like a lot of people going into marriage. Real nice of her to not tell him until AFTER they had sex. He could have at least been able to try find someone else who was a virgin.
> 
> ...


He was away fighting. You imagine if he was truly in love he would have spent alot of time thinking about her, looking forward to letters and phone calls filled with sweet nothings, amid the horrors of war.

His army buddies probably went to brothels etc and he was saving himself, then you come home believing the letters, phone calls, you have sex believing it to be this ultimate moment of bonding and intimacy (and you know whilst they were having sex whether out of guilt or not she thought about the AP) and that gets ruined by the confession.

So yes it probably did somewhat screw with him.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

BobSimmons said:


> He was away fighting. You imagine if he was truly in love he would have spent alot of time thinking about her, looking forward to letters and phone calls filled with sweet nothings, amid the horrors of war.
> 
> His army buddies probably went to brothels etc and he was saving himself, then you come home believing the letters, phone calls, you have sex believing it to be this ultimate moment of bonding and intimacy (and you know whilst they were having sex whether out of guilt or not she thought about the AP) and that gets ruined by the confession.
> 
> So yes it probably did somewhat screw with him.


Oh no doubt it impacted him - but I think what kept him going forward in that lifestyle was the money and endless women. I posted earlier in the thread his XW remarried and her 2nd H adopted the kids until she separated from him as well. Then they ran back to daddy. Just a weird situation.


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Ynot said:
> 
> 
> > Really? So tell me about my life experience. I am fascinated to know how you know so much about me. The very large difference between you and I, is that you allow your self to be limited and boxed in by your religion. It colors of every one of your moralizing posts. I really don't need to know anything more about you other than you are religious zealot with no tolerance for us "heathens".[/QUOTE[
> ...


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Diana7 said:
> 
> 
> > First off one does not need religion to see how important being moral and honest is. Second off, one does not need religion to be moral and honest. Thirdly no one supported being unfaithful, or for that matter supported casual sex (sleeping around is the term you used before) or porn. Finally while those things may bring pain and suffering, the reality is that a lot of that pain and suffering are a result of the buttoned down views of religion, which uses guilt as its primary weapon.
> ...


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Ynot said:


> Yep he was a man who started out living by the expectations and rules of society. He was raised in home full of repression, was a virgin until age 22, married the first woman he ever slept with and found out the life he had been told he needed to live was a deadening slog. Thank goodness the guy had the wherewithal to learn the lesson that we should never live for anyone else.


Well this could go either way.. my husband waited for me (I also waited for him).... I never cheated on him... we've had a very special endearing romance - still going strong all these years later... we've been together since our teens, celebrated 28 yrs a little over a week ago... We do live for each other, we are both very giving, in-tuned to each other.. for us, this is normal and what brings us happiness, and holds the passion...connectivity.. there is an abiding trust there...

But so true...what I have learned by landing here yrs ago...reading personal story after another....all laced with some betrayal it seems... I have come to realize that once a person has been betrayed.. often it PROFOUNDLY changes them, it almost seems like a right of passage to many... 

This is something myself & husband has never experienced , therefore our perspective is different, almost idealistic over many...funny thing is.. we are both on the pessimistic side, but when it comes to romance, our perspective is more idealistic..

I found this old post on one of my romantic threads -- it seems to sum up what Hefner & many experience...



mikeydread1982 said:


> :iagree:This is true, but we know the devastation comes first, and man does it come hard......
> 
> The only thing I did wish was that I had the opportunity to experience heartbreak earlier in dating, getting your heart broken for the first time at 22/23, I think it has longer lasting effects. How you deal with people and deal with trust changes completely.


Interesting thread.. I had no idea of Hefner's early marriage, the man BEFORE the betrayal... and how it changed him forever ... fascinating...


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Ynot said:
> 
> 
> > Religion is like anything else it can be used for good or bad. It's not the reason for all wars or stupid ideas like that. I am not a huge fan of bureaucratic religion or the overly restrictive kind myself, but that is not very different then the reactionary anti-religious, atheist spouting off today. It's all inflexible "my way or you evil" bull****. (I know what you guys are thinking, The merits of trying to reconcile with a cheater is different by the way ) Partisans make fools of all of us in my opinion.
> ...


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Ynot said:


> sokillme said:
> 
> 
> > What "side" am I on? You went on an on about atheists, but never once discussed anything that I have ever said. FTR I know God exists, which is exactly why I do NOT believe in RELIGION - Christianity, Catholicism, Islam, Buddhism or for that matter Atheism as well as any other man made nonsensical movement based solely on something God "revealed" to one man.
> ...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> Ynot said:
> 
> 
> > The reality is that nobody really cares what you believe. I don't mean that in a bad way. Believe what you want. What I'm saying is that this is not the "Politics and Religion" forum. Diana has a right to express her views on marriage and sex, just like everyone else. There is no good reason for you to berate a fellow member over your hatred of organized religion. None. Express your own views of sex and marriage until you are blue in the face. It's fine and totally expected. But, just because someone has a different view does not give you the right to call her close minded and "wrong."
> ...


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

sokillme said:


> TX-SC said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure why I am quoted as I didn't say this, seems the quote function is broken, that's a shock. Anyway @Ynot feel free to have opinions that's good, just lay off Diana, she has a right to hers as well.
> ...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> sokillme said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like there must be an issue. You quoted me, but it says you are quoting Ynot. No idea what's up with that.
> ...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oneMOreguy said:


> Double engineer here, as well as a strong Christian......speaking of my belief,. of course my actions are not always admirable.
> 
> I feel so sad for those who feel better by blaming religion for the evils of the world.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk


When you think of the thousands of Christian charities, and the millions of churches who do such good work in their communities, as well as the countless millions of Christians who do such good things for others, I know that this world would be so much worse without Christianity.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ynot said:


> sokillme said:
> 
> 
> > What "side" am I on? You went on an on about atheists, but never once discussed anything that I have ever said. FTR I know God exists, which is exactly why I do NOT believe in RELIGION - Christianity, Catholicism, Islam, Buddhism or for that matter Atheism as well as any other man made nonsensical movement based solely on something God "revealed" to one man.
> ...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> What a shame he didn't use his skills for something that was beneficial to society.
> I dont think that many men would stoop so low as to have sex with women who were basically prostitutes.


It was an article on environmentalalism in Playboy magazine that caused a group of people to get together and found what would become the Ecology Party.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

MODERATOR NOTE:

All this debate on religion and atheism would be fascinating. In the appropriate place on TAM.

This is not that place. Please stop the threadjacks.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> It was an article on environmentalalism in Playboy magazine that caused a group of people to get together and found what would become the Ecology Party.


and?


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

I will forever find it fascinating how supposed fully cognizant, rational beings are "shaped by society", should not the opposite be true?. The word supposed is intentional. Although I do not believe in any religion, I do find great value in the moral teachings of most religions but they do not set nor define my morality, I do that with careful and thoughtful consideration. And, in many instances, it is not the adherence to religious principles that causes difficulties or "regrets" but rather the actions of others, who may or may not claim to.

There was a poster here that stated how he regrets not having been with more women before marriage, as he was a virgin when he married and his wife was not. However, I posit that his regret does not stem from the fact that he followed an edict that he believed to be right but that his angst is actually due to the perceived unappreciative attitude towards his behavior from his wife. It seems to be her attitude that he actually regrets and not what he "missed" in his youth, which may, in his mind, serve to level the playing field between them considering the apparent lack of importance she places on his "sacrifice". Therefore, I believe it is the inequality that he finds troublesome.

I believe that Mr. Hefner was forever altered by his fiance's betrayal and that his beliefs were shattered. I also believe that it forever altered his ability to have faith and trust in women. I find it hardly plausible that he was so enamored with the "lifestyle" that it perpetuated but rather that he was forever searching for something he could not find and the "lifestyle" was a distraction, much like drugs and alcohol.

Additionally, I find waiting until marriage to have sex to be prudent in cognizant beings for many reasons not the least of which is the familiarity it breeds with having casual intercourse. As we evolve, it would seem to be reasonable to expect that our relationships transcend simply having "fun". It would seem a natural progression that we begin to understand and rationalize relationships as being far more than just intercourse and that intellect would begin to supersede instinct. For many this is sadly not the case.

We instinctually eat because we get hungry and need food but what happens if you place an unlimited supply of food in front of an animal? They eat into obesity, as are many **** sapiens in our world today. The cognizance that should be present which would allow the human animal to rationalize and control over consumption is simply not there in many. For me, it is the same with coitus. It is unnecessary that we "experience" many varied and different partners just as it is unnecessary that we experience many varied and diverse foods but it has become "fun" to eat and, in the same way that it is not necessarily detrimental to eat for fun, if handled with reason, it certainly can be if not given sufficient thought.

I believe that in cognizant beings, sex can be an invaluable tool in helping to establish an interpersonal bonding that will strengthen and sustain the relationship. I further believe that the minimization of this tools ability can be problematic and that relationships suffer because of it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> and?


You really do need to finish that question.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

NoChoice said:


> I will forever find it fascinating how supposed fully cognizant, rational beings are "shaped by society", should not the opposite be true?. The word supposed is intentional. Although I do not believe in any religion, I do find great value in the moral teachings of most religions but they do not set nor define my morality, I do that with careful and thoughtful consideration. And, in many instances, it is not the adherence to religious principles that causes difficulties or "regrets" but rather the actions of others, who may or may not claim to.
> 
> There was a poster here that stated how he regrets not having been with more women before marriage, as he was a virgin when he married and his wife was not. However, I posit that his regret does not stem from the fact that he followed an edict that he believed to be right but that his angst is actually due to the perceived unappreciative attitude towards his behavior from his wife. It seems to be her attitude that he actually regrets and not what he "missed" in his youth, which may, in his mind, serve to level the playing field between them considering the apparent lack of importance she places on his "sacrifice". Therefore, I believe it is the inequality that he finds troublesome.
> 
> ...


While I agree that a great many people are prone to overeating simply because it is available, I disagree with this analogy towards sex. If you are one to sit around and simply eat the same thing day in and day in, you are missing out on the truly great variety of food available in the world. I fee sad for such people, yes they may be happy, but it is a happiness born of ignorance rather than knowledge. They may find that they truly enjoy a perfectly cooked steak but never find out because all they have allowed themselves to be exposed to is a hot dog. Of course the same is true in reverse. And in this regard, while one may be happy with their sex live by only being with one person their entire life, it is a happiness born of ignorance as to all that is available in the world. It fosters the idea of the "one" and can lead to great misery and heartache, as was the case with Hugh Hefner, as well as countless other people who believed in the fairy tale of "the One" and suffered greatly for it. And of course we have to wonder if those otherwise happy people might be a quite a bit happier and more fulfilled had they used the God given gift of free will and reason to discover what exactly they do like best for themselves, rather than simply accepting what they have. God gave us brains and cognizant thought in order for us to find our own way in this world. I see no reason to allow anyone else to think for me.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Being a virgin at 22 shows that the person has self control and good moral values. Its not against God who says that sex is for marriage. My husband was a virgin till he married at 25, I love him for that.


Not always.

Being a virgin at 22 could mean that the person is unattractive and /or lacks a whole lot social skills.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> I don't know anyone who regretted waiting for sex till they were with the right one.


I used to visit a message board for those waiting until marriage to have sex.

One woman admitted that she divorced her husband because they were sexually incompatible. 

Women also need to be certain that they're not marrying someone who is still in the closet.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

If you want to have a pissing contest over religion, please open a thread in the Politics & Religion forum. This is not the thread for this sort of argument. Anyone who continues the religious argument will get some time out to cool down. 

{speaking as a moderator}


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> How many Christian groups are helping out in Peurto Rico right now?


Actually there is a lot of aid going into Puerto Rico from Christian organizations.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> If you want to have a pissing contest over religion, please open a thread in the Politics & Religion forum. This is not the thread for this sort of argument. Anyone who continues the religious argument will get some time out to cool down.
> 
> {speaking as a moderator}


Can I ask why? I started this thread specifically to have discussion about this stuff. It's not a thread were someone is asking for help. Since Hefner seemed to be from religious upbringing and usually people who save themselves for marriage are I think the topic is very relevant to the post.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Can I ask why? I started this thread specifically to have discussion about this stuff. It's not a thread were someone is asking for help. Since Hefner seemed to be from religious upbringing and usually people who save themselves for marriage are I think the topic is very relevant to the post.


Because there is a section for religious debates. And this isn't it. 

MODERATOR MESSAGE


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Because there is a section for religious debates. And this isn't it.
> 
> MODERATOR MESSAGE


One person turned this into a religious debate (and we all know who that is as she has quite a track record of it). Why not just tell her to stay out if she can't follow the theme of the thread? You mods are always screaming abut not thread jacking but do little to the ones who perpetually do the jacking.

Really makes no sense whatsoever.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I honestly cant see how having many partners is not ignorant and yet being faithful to one is. How things have got skewed. We all make choices in life, we all know that we can have many partners, but some of us choose not to, not out of ignorance but because we know its best and have seen the pointlessness around us of people like Hefner and his appalling lifestyle.
I cant see that any of his decisions were due to his first wife's cheating. Millions get cheated on and dont act badly and go on to have another good faithful marriage. His problem was having no moral values at all and of course money is always something that many will put before living a decent life.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Ynot said:


> While I agree that a great many people are prone to overeating simply because it is available, I disagree with this analogy towards sex. If you are one to sit around and simply eat the same thing day in and day in, you are missing out on the truly great variety of food available in the world. I fee sad for such people, yes they may be happy, but it is a happiness born of ignorance rather than knowledge. They may find that they truly enjoy a perfectly cooked steak but never find out because all they have allowed themselves to be exposed to is a hot dog. Of course the same is true in reverse. And in this regard, while one may be happy with their sex live by only being with one person their entire life, it is a happiness born of ignorance as to all that is available in the world. It fosters the idea of the "one" and can lead to great misery and heartache, as was the case with Hugh Hefner, as well as countless other people who believed in the fairy tale of "the One" and suffered greatly for it. And of course we have to wonder if those otherwise happy people might be a quite a bit happier and more fulfilled had they used the God given gift of free will and reason to discover what exactly they do like best for themselves, rather than simply accepting what they have. God gave us brains and cognizant thought in order for us to find our own way in this world. I see no reason to allow anyone else to think for me.


How does one define "missing out"? If I have no desire to experience that beyond which I find sufficient or acceptable am I missing out? How is it ignorant to know what you want? I would posit that someone who is searching for what they want would be more accurately described as ignorant since they do not know what they actually search for. Also, where does the search end? Shall we sample a few, several, many or all in our quest for what we want? Will the search continue after marriage or shall we decide that our spouse is "good enough" based upon our sampling of the population?

As to the "one", I believe it is neither fantasy nor fairy tale but is rather a rare reality that occurs when two who are psychologically in accord understand that their happiness is secondary to the happiness of their mate. And why must we question someone who says they are happy? Simply because we need more to be happy? What we need may not apply to them so how does that negate their happiness?

Moreover, I find cognizance and "brains" to be sadly lacking in our world today but since you believe everyone has their "God given" quota then why do you feel compelled to think for others by questioning their belief, their choices and even their happiness? Have you been given extraordinary insight that the rest of us lack? I find that knowledge (I call it the knowing) satiates and that ignorance drives those to seek what they perceive to be missing based on said ignorance.

Lastly, there are those that would posit that you are experiencing limited happiness due to your ignorance of a personal relationship with a Deity of some sort. I would assume you would disagree just as they disagree with you that they are experiencing happiness born of ignorance. Do you believe you would be happier thinking as they do? Are they ignorant to believe likewise?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

NoChoice said:


> How does one define "missing out"? If I have no desire to experience that beyond which I find sufficient or acceptable am I missing out? How is it ignorant to know what you want? I would posit that someone who is searching for what they want would be more accurately described as ignorant since they do not know what they actually search for. Also, where does the search end? Shall we sample a few, several, many or all in our quest for what we want? Will the search continue after marriage or shall we decide that our spouse is "good enough" based upon our sampling of the population?
> 
> As to the "one", I believe it is neither fantasy nor fairy tale but is rather a rare reality that occurs when two who are psychologically in accord understand that their happiness is secondary to the happiness of their mate. And why must we question someone who says they are happy? Simply because we need more to be happy? What we need may not apply to them so how does that negate their happiness?
> 
> ...


You don't know what you don't know until you know you don't know. If you stumbled into something that makes you happy, as I said, that is great. Who am I to question. I thought I had, it wasn't meant to be, so I had no choice but to grow and learn from my experience.

I never claimed to think for anyone else, which is more than some of those who make blanket condemnation of anyone who had sex before marriage or refuse to settle for the thoughts of some one else rather than making the effort to find out for themselves.

But I am a little perplexed by this statement "there are those that would posit that you are experiencing limited happiness due to your ignorance of a personal relationship with a Deity of some sort." No such ignorance exists. I never said I didn't have a personal relationship with my creator, in fact far from it. I have found that my personal relationship with God has been enhanced greatly once I threw of the yoke of all the man made crap that is religion. I have no need to have someone else tell me how I should relate to God or what God wants. OTOH, IMO, those who subscribe to some religion have placed man made limits on that relationship.

In many ways Hugh Hefner experienced a similar liberation from the expectations of society and religion.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

There is an interesting interview with two of his employees on CNN. Granted, this does not speak for everyone who worked there or the population as a whole.

Two feminists on what it was like to work at Hef's Playboy

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/28/entertainment/working-at-playboy-feminism/index.html

In my opinion, infidelity by his wife did shape who he would become and the type of empire he built, but again, I don't see Playboy as overly offensive. It's really no different from "hunky" fireman calenders with their shirts off, etc. People love a nice human body.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Ynot said:


> You don't know what you don't know until you know you don't know. If you stumbled into something that makes you happy, as I said, that is great. Who am I to question. I thought I had, it wasn't meant to be, so I had no choice but to grow and learn from my experience.
> 
> I never claimed to think for anyone else, which is more than some of those who make blanket condemnation of anyone who had sex before marriage or refuse to settle for the thoughts of some one else rather than making the effort to find out for themselves.
> 
> ...


My point exactly. Your definition of a personal relationship with God would almost certainly not line up with any "established" (man made) religion so you would be deemed to be less than fully happy based on their criteria, just as you use your criteria to suppose they are not experiencing happiness to the fullest possible extent. Neither negates the others happiness.

I am now perplexed by your statement "_refuse to settle for the thoughts of some one else rather than making the effort to find out for themselves_." How can one settle on another's thoughts? Unless you mean accept what they say without question in which case I concur. One can use the experiences of others to process and compile their own thoughts which should then guide them.

And it is true that one cannot truly miss what they have never known and that was my root point all along. Based on my experiences and the experiences of others I am convinced, beyond all doubt in my mind, that there is simply nothing to miss. May I add that I truly regret your situation not working out but if it had and you had remained in that relationship and considered yourself happy I would not think you ignorant for doing so nor would I question your happiness. Sometimes enough is enough.


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Being a virgin at 22 shows that the person has self control and good moral values.


OR you can't get laid.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

NoChoice said:


> My point exactly. Your definition of a personal relationship with God would almost certainly not line up with any "established" (man made) religion so you would be deemed to be less than fully happy based on their criteria, just as you use your criteria to suppose they are not experiencing happiness to the fullest possible extent. Neither negates the others happiness.
> 
> I am now perplexed by your statement


How so? I have been very clear that I think anyone who allows others to define their happiness are not really happy. They have achieved some level of acceptance based on some one else's expectations. Until one actually takes the time to explore what their expectations, wants and needs are, how could they possibly know" The word for it is blissful ignorance.
If that works for you, great! As I said I thought it had worked for me, but it didn't. I was forced to question who I had become. I realize I had allowed others to define me. That is not the case any longer. 
I wish more people actually took the time to do so rather than just settle for what their family, their religion or their society has decided for them. There is a big world out there, full of possibilities. I guess some people are just willing to only see the small part of it they were born into.

PS how does one have a personal relationship with God when the shape and context of that relationship has been determined by others (aka religion) IMO there is NO personal relationship, only a facsimile of one based on someone else's expectations


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I honestly cant see how having many partners is not ignorant and yet being faithful to one is. How things have got skewed. We all make choices in life, we all know that we can have many partners, but some of us choose not to, not out of ignorance but because we know its best and have seen the pointlessness around us of people like Hefner and his appalling lifestyle.
> I cant see that any of his decisions were due to his first wife's cheating. Millions get cheated on and dont act badly and go on to have another good faithful marriage. His problem was having no moral values at all and of course money is always something that many will put before living a decent life.


He tried being faithful and it didn't work for him. So he decided to have sex with lots of pretty women instead, and unlike the vast majority of men, had the means to do it - and he had no shortage of pretty blondes to facilitate him. No one put a gun to their heads and forced them. If none of them posed for Playboy or lived in the mansion, there would have been no empire. 

He grew up in a generation where he was told that men were sex addicted dogs with no morals and women were all virtue and he discovered *in his case* - as many of us on here do - that the opposite was true - and that many women pretend they value sex "to save it for someone special" but at the same time will jump on the nearest **** behind your back. 

He was open and honest about being a horndog, wasn't like he hid it. Don't see what the problem is.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Good Guy said:


> OR you can't get laid.


Most people can if they choose to live that way with people the same as them.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Sadly, I do not feel that Mr Hefner dramatically altered society but rather that society drastically altered Mr. Hefner.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*MODERATOR WARNING*:-

threadjack posts have -_again_- been deleted from this thread.

If people cannot refrain from posting about religion (their religion or of someone else) in this thread, then the moderation team reserves the right to take further actions without any other notification or warning.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Apparently, Hefner had some standards:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ostsharedarticles_1_na&utm_term=.9c074a0065c2


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Hefner banged Barbie Benton. That in my mind is enough to give the man some kudos.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I'm glad somebody resurrected this thread. I had somehow missed it, and I have to say it is the most hysterically funny and amusingly predictable thread I have read in a very very long time period thank you for giving me the laugh I needed on a pretty crapy day.


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