# Can I believe her?



## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

Hi all, new here and will try to make this as brief and concise as possible though the story is long.

Been married 8 years now. 4 years ago my wife began to suffer from Postpartum depression and it was bad. She hated me and all I did (won't drone on about the effects of PPD but it is aweful). During this time we were friends with another couple and she started to confide in him. I knew at some point that things were too close with them but in my fog of trying to get her help and keep my family together through the PPD, I was in denial about an affair.

After 2 years of the PPD (spring of 2009) she agreed to go to the doctor and was put on antidepressants. We had separated for a month and I accepted her back based on her getting help and never contacting OM again (though no affair was confirmed yet).

Fast forward to Aug.2011 and the OM confessed to his wife about a long affair. Wife then confessed to me. I have never got the full story from her but little bits, when confronted but that it ended Spring of '09 during the separation. She tells me she doesn't remember much during her PPD in any capacity let alone details about the affair. I am willing to accept a lack of proper memory considering how messed up she was during that time.

I just found phone records that show she had been in contact with OM for the last 2 years up to May of 2011...about 2 months before I found out about A. When confronted with this she states "I don't remember talking to him" and has since been "trying to remember". This time frame is not during PPD but when she was apparently of sound mind. 

I can't get closure and move on with possibly repairing the marriage without knowing the story and I'm having a lot of difficulty believing that she can't remember all this stuff. I even gave her full amnesty, no reprecussions from lying, just tell me the truth so I can try to deal with the information but she holds steady.

I am now a fool for still trying?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Her claim as to not remembering a 2 year affair is BULLSH!T. 

Straight up LIES. 

You said: *I can't get closure and move on with possibly repairing the marriage without knowing the story and I'm having a lot of difficulty believing that she can't remember all this stuff. I even gave her full amnesty, no reprecussions from lying, just tell me the truth so I can try to deal with the information but she holds steady.*

I would let her know one more time: 

_"I feel you are still lying to me when you don't let me know what happened. As your husband, I deserve to know the truth. Without knowing what happened, I cannot move forward and feel we cannot restore/recover our marriage. The choice is yours."_

If she doesn't waiver and claims amensia, then you need to decide whether you want to live in a marriage w/ someone who is still lying to your face every day.

I am so sorry, by the way. I can't imagine anything worse.


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## kenmoore14217 (Apr 8, 2010)

You need to know all the information to make an informed decision. You wouldn't take a loan out without knowing the interest rate and payment terms would you?? Tell her you are pretty sure a polygraph will put both your minds to rest.


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

Thank your for your replies....

The confirmed PA was between Sep 07 to about Mar 09. The phone records I found show her calling him at least twice a month from Aug 2010 (furthest the records go back) to end of May 2011.

Jelly, I told her that very thing last night with the addition that she will not be "punished" for lying to me about not remembering....that I will consider only the information provided to know what I can do or not do in terms of moving on. She was silent for an hour and then said "I'm sorry but I don't remember talking to him the last 2 years except for one time" Though at least she confirms based on physical evidence that "i see that I must have talked to him, I just don't remember it"

She either won't let go of the lie or she somehow really doesn't remember. I am in law enforcement and am very good at interrogation and she knows this making her either very ballsy to continue lying or, in fact, telling the truth.


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## camelliarose (Feb 16, 2012)

Worse case scenario is that your wife will NEVER confess ever. Even after amnesty or Jack Bauer style. I think you're not a fool trying to save a marriage. A lot of people just give up and leave, you didn't. But, the curiosity will be a torment. I understand this because I've been in your position before. What I did is give my H back the curiosity. I mysteriously didn't pick up the phone or being unclear of where and with who I'm with (I was just with my mother). He got so frustrated and started forcing the truth to come out of me, so I used it as a leverage. He then confessed his crimes to trade for my honesty. It worked for me  But, in case she denied forever, if I were you I'd leave it all to God.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

BL, you know she is lying. And you will not rest without knowing full truth. IMHO, given her past history, you need to show patience and engage in several related conversations with her. She will start trickle truth. You need to engage her in comfortable conversations.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

What about saying to her "Ok I guess I will go talk to the OM and OMW and see exactly what they remember, since you can not"

Might jar her memory....

bad idea???


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

You are still in denial and you are enabling her behavior. Unless she has a another un-diagnosed condition regarding memory, I cannot see how a depression can cause selective memory loss. You allowed her to not take responsibility of her actions by accepting her answers. This is your fault too. Unless you are a masochist, I don't see why you are putting yourself through this.

Suggest a polygraph and watch her react. Try to get the details from the OM's wife.


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

Pretty much all of the details I have recieved have been from OMW. My wife then generally confirms those details by "trying to remember it".

I know I'm probably still in denial and I'm only giving latitude because before the PPD, before the affair, we were as perfect for each other as any couple I have ever seen and as much as I want to hate her, I still love her.

I will try the polygraph question tonight.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I am going to play devil's advocate here and say I have had post-natal depression and "normal" depression in my life many times. And the effect it has on your memory can be scary. I have chunks missing from my life, including a while during when my oldest child was a baby which makes me incredibly sad when I realise how much I can't remember.

I will say though that to claim she can't remember AT ALL contact over two years? It is possible that a) she genuinely can't remember as she says or b) the contact was maybe in the realm of mild EA, ie texting that was not so involved so it simply doesn't register in her memory.

Or of course it could be c) and she's using the depression as a cover and she can remember. You know her best - what's your instinct saying?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

You are being gullible to a fault. You cannot see what you are doing here. I don't want to do any arm chair psychology but have you heard about co-dependency? As long as you keep accepting her lies and allow her to not take any responsibility, she will keep on hurting you. She is no where near stopping her behaviour when she denies anything like that. 

Have you even considered separation at least once?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

tobio said:


> I am going to play devil's advocate here and say I have had post-natal depression and "normal" depression in my life many times. And the effect it has on your memory can be scary. I have chunks missing from my life, including a while during when my oldest child was a baby which makes me incredibly sad when I realise how much I can't remember.
> 
> I will say though that to claim she can't remember AT ALL contact over two years? It is possible that a) she genuinely can't remember as she says or b) the contact was maybe in the realm of mild EA, ie texting that was not so involved so it simply doesn't register in her memory.
> 
> ...


 Is it possible that she cannot remember even one instance of the affair? For something that spread over 2 years?


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

You are not a fool. You hung in like a saint.

You stuck it out during a rough time in her life and she repaid you with what? Boning another guy.

I suspect that she feels that she can get away with it. She is holding steady because she can.

Turn up the heat:

1. Do the 180.
2. Get tested for STD's.

You have a tough nut to crack.


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

I told her to leave 3 days ago. Last night I allowed her to talk to me and same story still. She is still at her mother's now.

Tobio: She has said similar things about our children...not being able to remember much about their young lives (first steps for eg.). I believe that there is some genuine memory problems, but hard to believe they go as far as she is stating.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

borderline said:


> Thank your for your replies....
> 
> The confirmed PA was between Sep 07 to about Mar 09. The phone records I found show her calling him at least twice a month from Aug 2010 (furthest the records go back) to end of May 2011.
> 
> Jelly, I told her that very thing last night with the addition that she will not be "punished" for lying to me about not remembering....that I will consider only the information provided to know what I can do or not do in terms of moving on. *She was silent for an hour and then said "I'm sorry but I don't remember talking to him the last 2 years except for one time" *


Wow. i would have considered that a slap in the face. 

She f-cked him the last 2 years and can't remember TALKING to him? 

That is what she is telling you. 

Oh boy. 

If you stay, you are in for a long long road. A road which may include her never ever giving you the information you seek.


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

You're all right of course. If I let her stay right now, what reason would she have (beyond common decency or respect) to come clean with everything.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

You've been way, way too accommodating to this whole thing. Embarking on a 2 year affair because of PPD shows that she's a callous individual and PPD doesn't cause memory lapses so I don't understand why you even believed that excuse. 

She can't remember talking to him but she can sure as hell remember sleeping with him.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Paternity is not an issue?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Have her take a lie detector test asking her if she remembers the calls and details of the affair that she has not told you. I have never recommend this before, but this is an unusual case.


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

No, Paternity is not an issue. The other couple wasn't in our lives when she was pregnant.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> You are being gullible to a fault. You cannot see what you are doing here. I don't want to do any arm chair psychology but have you heard about co-dependency? As long as you keep accepting her lies and allow her to not take any responsibility, she will keep on hurting you. She is no where near stopping her behaviour when she denies anything like that.
> 
> Have you even considered separation at least once?



:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

I think he is still living in his old fond memories, wake up man, it was in past, now that dosent exist, the truth now is that everything changed when your wife started cheating and spread her legs for someone else.

dont buy her amnesia, go for polygraph, no other way to get truth from her


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

PPD has nothing to do with her having an affair. I get taht she was depressed and really upset and down but that does not excuse her cheating on your for TWO WHOLE YEARS. 

And yep, you may want to do a DNA test on baby cause it may not even be yours. 

Hard consequencs are the only thing that will work. How old is she? This seems really calculating. 

What has OMW wife told you??? 

ALSO........


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

There are reasons and excuses. She is creating a way to make you at fault - e.g., "you do not trust me that I cannot remember, how can we move forward?" You must approach this from a logical, not emotional perspective, and simply be unmoved by this clear BS (like she is telling you that magic pixie dust cause her to have the affair). Turn it around, and say it is impossible to move forward if you do not know what you are moving from or to.

PPD is a serious matter, but it sounds like she is using it as a cover for cheating? She must take responsibility for her actions, including being honest. The polygraph line sounds very confrontational - of course she is lying, she is testing; her response will be "if you cannot trust me, there is no point. . . . " And she'll refuse to take the test. 

Another route may be to play along, and see whether there is anything she can remember from that period. Maybe find a date that she called the OM that corresponds to an important date from which she'll have a memory (a child's birthday, school day) and casualy discuss that day. Don't even drop that the call occurred, just confirm what you suspect and everyone else reading this knows.


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

OMW is the one who revealed the affair. She is the one who told me how long (as far as she knew) it was going on. She's the one who told me that they were still in contact this last 2 years (talking to each other at the very minimum) which prompted me to look up the phone records.

Wife has never denied the original affair (from sep 07 to Mar 09)...but it was details of that time that were hard to remember or "murky". The total "not remembering" of the phone calls from Aug '10 until May of last year are the only real extreme examples of her supposed amnesia.

In order to be brief, my original post left out things that she genuinely confessed to and specific details of our situation.....I obviously can't recant the last 4 years of our life together but have tried to include enough to give an accurate picture.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

How is she acting now that you discovered it? 
What did she say when you called her out on it? When did you confront her with the knowledge of her A?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

borderline said:


> Pretty much all of the details I have recieved have been from OMW. My wife then generally confirms those details by "trying to remember it".
> 
> I know I'm probably still in denial and I'm only giving latitude because before the PPD, before the affair, we were as perfect for each other as any couple I have ever seen and as much as I want to hate her, I still love her.
> 
> I will try the polygraph question tonight.


Your wife is afraid you do not know the full extent of her affair(s).

This is also not something she wishes to talk about. It is painful for her and she may in her own way be wanting to forget. But she has to be afraid you will learn something new form this and ask her more questions.


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## Dexter Morgan (Dec 8, 2011)

borderline said:


> I can't get closure and move on with possibly repairing the marriage without knowing the story and I'm having a lot of difficulty believing that she can't remember all this stuff.



Don't let her fool you. She can remember. She just doesn't have the guts to face up to telling you the complete truth and is ashamed to answer your questions.

She can remember, she is full of crap if she says she can't.




> I even gave her full amnesty, no reprecussions from lying, just tell me the truth so I can try to deal with the information but she holds steady.


Even then she won't tell you. She had the guts to screw another man, but not the guts to answer your questions.

And answering the questions won't make you feel better. If anything, if she is honest, it will piss you off. I guarantee you that. She knows this, which is why she is feeding you alot of bull about not remembering.



> I am now a fool for still trying?


Well, you aren't going to get me to say that, but I will say that you won't ever completely be rid of the visions of her riding another man for as long as you live. Unless you render the visions insignificant. And the only way to do that is to render your wife insignificant, and get rid of her.

But if you stay, you are going to have to live with the torment she has now bestowed upon you. Will you get to a point where her effing another man doesn't consume your thoughts daily? Sure, I believe so. But you will have flashbacks and triggers. And IMO, thats no life.

And if you do stay with her, then first off, there is to be no more friendship with this other couple and she is never to speak to the OM again.

Secondly, and I hate to say this, but for at least a couple years, her butt should basically be on house arrest. She has proven herself unworthy and not trustworthy. If there is a function or social event....you go with her.
If she wants to go out with friends for drinks, etc. then she shouldn't have a problem with you going too. She needs to EARN your trust back. And if she respects you and wishes to make right of the torture she is putting you through, she won't have a problem being policed for a while.

That and she needs to be an open book. No privacy in email, FB, nothing. She needs to give you all her usernames and passwords.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

For me the cruelty and the insult to my intelligence of her pretending not to remember would mean the end. 

I'm sorry you are going through this, but I feel she is manipulating you. Don't take this.


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

She confessed to the affair when I told her about the message from OMW. She answered my questions about it with some answers being "I don't remember the details of that exactly". Her timeline for the affair that she gave me was originally 6-9 months. After OMW told me it was longer (OM told her) my wife journalled for a couple days and said "yes....it was closer to a year and a half".

She immediately said she doesn't remember the phone calls. When I asked her "Common, do you think I"m that stupid? How can you not remember something you did just 8 months ago?" She very angrily screamed "I don't know what to tell you, I don't ****ing remember". That is when I told her to get out of my house. When she came home to talk last night we were both very calm...she cried a lot, talking about how much she hates herself, how much she hates the pain she's causing me and how she doesn't deserve me. With all that said, that is when she told me she still can only remember talking to him once in this time span of the phone calls.


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## hisfac (Feb 10, 2012)

If she's really suffering such a memory loss that she can only remember one phone call to a guy she screwed over a year and a half time period, you oughta leave her because she's basically suffering from some sort of severe brain damage issue which makes the affair almost insignificant in comparison.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

I can see not remembering specific phone calls per se.

However, is she not remembering when they had sex?

How many times did they hookup for sexual activities?

What is the freqency of their get togethers? Multiple times a week / month?

Where did they have sex?

What hurdles did they contrive to get together to have sex?

What type of sex did they have? You may not want to know details but she is claiming to not remember anything.

My point is that she was not just having a cup of cofee with him and sex occurred without her being very involved. If they went to a nearby town to a hotel, that would speak loudly. She made time for the affair and had to handle the logistics of the PA.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

your question is "can I (you) believe her?"

You have to answer that... can you keep your head in the sand? or is your power to keep this denial charade up starting to waver ?

if your question was "could you (us) believe her?"

No. It's absolute h0rse**** she's spoonfeeding you. Way too many holes. 

Most of us have been through extreme *gaslighting* we know the damage it causes, and I shutter to think of the crap I was willingly swallowing and how my XW's lies twisted my reality.... Even so... No matter how much I wanted to... No chance I could swallow what your W is selling. 

Clear as day.... She is lying about what she remembers and doesn't. Whats shes doing is abusive and it's malicious. 

Research gaslighting.

Im sorry If I sound harsh but reading what is being done to you makes me furious.


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

Since I'm new here...can someone tell me what the "180" is?


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

She has given me detail of the confirmed year and a half PA. Not necessarily all the gory details but quite a bit.

This total not remembering is the 2 years since the PA supposedly ended. She doesn't remember calling him a couple times a month (and however many times he called her). She says she doesn't think (ie. can't remember) she ever saw him again during this 2 years of phone calls but that she will try to remember. She has finally said she will go to counselling to see if she can get it all together. To me, that's her "out". If she tells me now she does, in fact, remember all this but was afraid to tell me then I have to contend with her being a liar in addition to the details. If she goes to counselling and through that is "able to remember" then it's just the details and she doesn't have to confess to being a liar.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Wow. 

First I hope she isn't blaming her cheating on ppd. Clearly it is her choosing and thinking she had their right to cheat that led her there.

I think cheaters often refuse to give details because they dont want to betray the special intimacy the shared with the AP. the don't want to share what they believe is private and sacred.

Has she explained how it started, why it continued, and what ended?

More importantly, why she did it and lied to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 5stringpicker (Feb 11, 2012)

Maybe you just like being tortured, in which case no one help you. Personally I don't think PPD had a hell of a lot to do with her banging your friend. Chances are she lost interest in you and was just keeping you around until she found someone who really rang her bell. Hence, why she stays in contact with Joey. During this time, she wasn't even thinking about you romantically, but was regularly doing the cowgirl with this dude. Here you are putting this major head trip on yourself. 

Why do you want to know the details. What more is there to know? Hell, just ask the other guy for a copy of the video. 

In the meantime, think about all the women you could have dated while this while this chick was "hating you and all that you did". 
The last thing I'd recommend is you being the guy she comes back to when she’s between men.
Do yourself a favor. Forgive her for dishonesty, disloyalty, and and unfaithfulness. And than get rid of her.


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## hopeless11 (Feb 16, 2012)

I am new to the site with my own set of crosses to bear and issues to resolve. I am in a similar situation of sorts with trust. 

The facts are that she admitted to the affair. What else do you really need to know about it for it to remain a fact? Knowing more will not help, will it? 

Saying she does not remember her actions works 2 ways. If she does not remember that, whatelse does she not remember? Did she remember she was married? Did she remember her name? 

You get what I am trying to say here? Foggy or not, memory is not selective. Maybe she just wants to leave it be and if she is trying to make ammends (she did confess to it) then make a decision based on what she is saying and doing now and how you feel now. Do you want to really try? Will you get over it? Is it too late? 

Answer those questions for yourself and then move on them one way or the other. People overcome infidelity, not all, but some. The only way to do it is by accepting, forgiving and starting all over the process to build back the trust that was betrayed.

If you are willing to do it, then put aside the need to know more. It will serve no good purpose. It will only cloud the fundamental decisions you make and work forward with.

It is easy to bash cheaters, etc. The bottom line is that she destroyed your trust and only you can decide to give it back and rebuild with her or without her. If you give her the chance, do not look back.

Best of luck to you!


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

She honestly hasn't used the PPD as an excuse for the affair exactly. Basically it was her state of mind during this time that led it to happening. The way the PPD affected her was a feeling that I had no interest in her now that she was a mom and that I had no interest in being a father. She withdrew from me and I didn't see it in time as it was a little by little thing until she said she was going to leave me because of the above mentioned things. By this time she thought she hated me...thought I was a horrible husband and father (not uncommon for the condition). I then realized that she was so far gone from who she was that I started researching what could be causing this and I discovered it (and later her Dr. confirmed) that it was PPD. The OM became her confidant during this time and a relationship grew from that. It started as friendship and eventually grew physical and emotional. She said it ended when we separated in March of 2009 (which is also when she went to the dr. and started getting treated) and realized how wrong she had been....that I wasn't this horrible person and how she had betrayed me.

In general conversations throught out life together she has heard me say,if someone cheats on their partner they should take it to the grave because they're just alleviating their own guilt by hurting the partner.....that is what I used to think. She told me that's why she kept it from me for the year and a half or before it came out but that the guilt "killed me everyday".

She has never blamed me for the affair.....as far as the PPD she only uses it to say "I wasn't myself....the real woman I am, the woman you married and the woman I am now, wouldn't do that"


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

In extreme cases of PPD it's possible that someone might not remember. But by extreme cases I mean depression psychosis. These are people who are a literal physical danger to themselves and to their families. Mothers who try to murder their own children or walk into highway traffic or burn the house down. They sometimes have hallucinations in addition to delusional thinking. Occasionally they claim to hear voices. They rarely wash themselves or eat let alone take care of others. 

Me thinks someone in that shape isn't having an affair.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Or tod antother way:

She got tired of you and being a mom,

She started up the affair.

You noticed her pulling away because she was putting her energy into OM

She finally decided to go for broke with OM and got you out in the separation so she could really be with him

He didnt leave his wife and didn't go for being with her full time

She ended it

She brought her backup plan back home 

She continue to fish with the OM fir the last couple of years to see it the situation changed and he wanted to hock back up.

...

Contact the OMW and ask OM to come clean on nature of those calls and if they were initiated by her to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

The recent posts change some of the things. You should have put that in the initial post.


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

I probably should have Warlock....like I said, I was just trying to be brief as I've read other threads where people had said the OP should have been shorter.

I truely appreciate all the replies, I have been reading each of them along with reading other threads. It is comforting to be in touch with people going through similar problems.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> I think cheaters often refuse to give details because they dont want to betray the special intimacy the shared with the AP. the don't want to share what they believe is private and sacred.


I disagree. I think they refuse because they believe they are helping their partner by not giving details/protecting them from more hurt (when in fact they are doing the exact opposite) and also, they aren't ready to own what they've done. See, in verbalizing the truth and saying what they've done, there is full acknowlegement of the betrayal. When someone refuses to do this, they are unwilling to deal with their actions. 



borderline said:


> She honestly hasn't used the PPD as an excuse for the affair exactly. Basically it was her state of mind during this time that led it to happening.


You still don't get it. The only thing that "led it to happening" was your wife. It was a choice that she made, with or w/o PPD.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Shaggy's version is cynical but also a very possible scenario. Especially




> She finally decided to go for broke with OM and got you out in the separation so she could really be with him
> 
> He didnt leave his wife and didn't go for being with her full time
> 
> She ended it



Esp. Confirm the facts for these things. Did she end up in IC after the OM ditched her or did she end up having a revelation after the IC and dumped the OM or did she dump him because they were going nowhere?


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

borderline said:


> "I wasn't myself....the real woman I am, the woman you married and the woman I am now, wouldn't do that"


Bullsh!t 

PPD *does not do this*, she says she doesn't use it as an excuse but with the same token she says "her state of mind at the time led her to do this"........ it was a concious decision she partook in and continued for 2 years.


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

I have considered Shaggy's scenario and confronted her with questions of it. She has denied anything of that nature which again, is her word which doesn't hold much water.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Ask her about the 100K you lent her last year and if she forgot about that too?

Sorry, couldn't resist


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

lol....can always use a laugh


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## hopeless11 (Feb 16, 2012)

How about this idea and mantra -

You are only responsible for your own actions not the actions of others.

You should not make excuses for others actions, only do what you feel is right for you in response to thier actions.


It sounds like you are beating yourself up for her actions and trying somehow to reconcile them. 

Facts my friend are clear:

- She had an affair.
- You have doubts about extent and times, but that does not matter.
- You are not formulating your feelings based on the fact. You are waiting and hoping for something to help you. You will not find it in the end though.
- You have no idea where to go from here or you do not want to go where you know deep in your soul you should go.


I say all this because I am struggling with the same thing or sorts in looking to absolve anothers actions and making them mine. I do not want to face the facts that I know in front of me, but rather continually seek to justify my fiances actions. It is easier for me to give advice than to take it and you and I are both at a cross-roads. Think about it though, it is called a "cross-roads" vs. dead end because once you get through the intersection, you will be heading down a road again. You just need to decide which one to take. The one you know, or the one that you do not know. Sometimes what you do not know is much better in the end but could it ever be worse?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

hopeless11 said:


> - You have doubts about extent and times, but that does not matter.



nope, it does matter

the betrayed need answers for R, they need to constantly reaffirm those answers. It is a way of rebuilding trust.


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

That's exactly it. I don't need the specifics of their bedroom antics.....just the true story of their relationship.


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## hopeless11 (Feb 16, 2012)

borderline said:


> That's exactly it. I don't need the specifics of their bedroom antics.....just the true story of their relationship.


My apologies. I misunderstood the reasons.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

borderline said:


> That's exactly it. I don't need the specifics of their bedroom antics.....just the true story of their relationship.



bingo

the nitty gritty sex stuff is usually best left out, that is unless you are having terrible mind movies that may be worse than the actual events


true remorse means answering all questions with honesty and no desire to protect their affair by using trickle truth, gaslighting or blameshifting


your wife is doing all three (you can look up the terms in the newbie thread in my signature)

she is giving trickle truth by omitting the phone calls, gaslighting by saying that she has memory issues and can't remember even calling him, and blamshifting by claiming she had the affair because you were a bad husband and her PPD. 


IOW you don't have the requirements of a successful R, if it keeps up like this, your marriage will fail


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

What was their contact about ? Did the Om reveal any details? How long were the calls?


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

OM has stated that the were intimate a couple times during this phone call period. She says no to the sex and the couple times she remembers talking to him it was just "normal" converstation....state of the union questions about their marriages so to speak.

The calls ranged from 1 minute to 36 minutes. The majority were in the 5 minute range.

She says that since she doesn't remember, she can't deny his claim but that she really doesn't think they did.....that maybe he's covering a second affair by using her name so his wife doesn't think he's had more than one.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

borderline said:


> She says that since she doesn't remember, she can't deny his claim but that she really doesn't think they did.....that maybe he's covering a second affair by using her name so his wife doesn't think he's had more than one.


Look at the upside. if you dump the wife, she's got a bright future in politics.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

WTF ??

Why would the OM confess to sex at all if it was a different woman. He could simply not talk about her.

It was not if he was caught with a sex tape where you cannot see the woman's face.


With the kind of memory loss your wife claims, she shouldn't be functioning normally. She is lying. 

I think her amnesia(supposedly) helped her evade any questions you ask about her affair. She simply won't have to talk about it(That is a common theme. WS don't want to speak about the affair details with BS). By not denying it entirely and blaming her memory, she is keeping the affair and its thoughts private to herself.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

I bet she remembers every single time that you've done something that was bad in her mind. It's called selective memory and it's a bunch of bull.

Unless she's always had a memory problem, it doesn't just pop up out of the blue unless she's starting to go senile or coming down with dementia/alzheimer.

Once you buy into the lie so long, it becomes reality. Even though you know what the truth is, you cling on to that lie until your very last breath hoping that it's reality.

Strap her up, if she can come back with and I don't remember and pass the test, then she needs to see a doctor because somethings wrong with her.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

my advice is clearly state to her that you can't continue in the marriage without the facts and you will be visiting a lawyer ASAP, see if that jogs her memory


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

Almost, thanks for the link to your newbie post...great read.

Thank you all for your response....I believe both suggesting the poly and what Almost just said is the direction I'm going in tonight.

I will update when I know. Thank you again


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Even if she is telling the truth, this marriage cannot survive as it is. Atleast the OM is confessing the affairs. If she can have sex while having blackouts, it will put OP's life in risk


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

If she had PPD (and you weren't simply observing blame shifting and gaslighting) she was self medicating with her affair. Affairs provide plenty of feel-good hormones. She may as well have been on antidepressants. For that reason alone, I call BS on her memory problems.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

First off, keep your investigators hat on. Then arrange an interview/interrogation of the guy (use his wife to get his approval). It would benefit you and her. Totally formal, no anger, an inventory if you will. Explain to the Mrs that since she can not recall that time period, and as a trained investigator you are led to go with the witness with the best recollection of events, you are going to interview him for approximately 2 hours. This then will be the final record of events. Tell her you'll stop asking questions regarding what happened. Then you can concentrate on her motivation and her over all deceptiveness. After that my friend, its decision time. Reconciliation or Divorce. Do not let her off easy. I would still separate finances if you haven't. And would of course suggest full exposure to family and friends. You understand full well as a cop, if there is no consequence there is no deterrent. Her rehabilitation should take a period of time.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Also what are you going to do I the future to know if she is being faithful? Does she even now demand her secrecy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

She hasn't, as I've learned the term from the newbie post, given me full transparency though I haven't asked for it. She has volunteered to not go out without me, to always call if she is not home when expected, to not allow any doubt as to her whereabouts and/or people she's with.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Transparency or bust
Start talking or bust
Own what you did or bust

Non-negotiables, darling.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

borderline said:


> She hasn't, as I've learned the term from the newbie post, given me full transparency though I haven't asked for it. She has volunteered to not go out without me, to always call if she is not home when expected, to not allow any doubt as to her whereabouts and/or people she's with.


In other words, she was caught red handed and is willing to do anything to prove to you that she only wants you. The only thing she won't do is admit to what has happened, in other words the memory loss.

Gonna be up to you, are you willing to sweep it under the rug and move on since she's supposedly showing full transparency now?

BTW, if you let her get away with this lie, she'll lie again in the future. If I got away with it once, I can most likely get away with it again.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

cheatinghubby said:


> In other words, she was caught red handed and *is willing to do anything *to prove to you that she only wants you. * The only thing she won't do *is admit to what has happened, in other words the memory loss.


And there is a HUGE irony there. SHe is claiming to do ANYTHING to restore the marriage/prove to you she's worthy of another chance yet she won't do the ONE thing you are asking her to do.

Things that should make you go HMMMMMMMMMMM


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I think the only way you are ever going to begin here is a polygraph.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

bl,

I don't know how long you've been lurking here on TAM but a lot of the posters in this thread are very much pro marriage and pro reconciliation, myself included. But everyone seems to be fairly unanimous in their advice to you. You know the answers already. You know in your heart she isn't telling you the truth. You know in your heart that she remembers everything. You also know in your heart that if she can't confess and come clean about what she's already done then you can't ever trust her to not do it again. She's looking for a way to keep her relationship with you and still not suffer the full consequences of her actions. She's also probably trying to string you along until either the OM is available to her or someone else that intrigues her comes along. Bottom line is that you need to tell her if she won't tell you the truth about everything then the marriage is over. You can suggest the polygraph if you want but only as a way for *HER* to prove to *YOU* she's telling the truth. I reluctantly must agree that unless she has an epiphany and realizes that she's about to lose everything this relationship is over.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

borderline said:


> She has given me detail of the confirmed year and a half PA. Not necessarily all the gory details but quite a bit.
> 
> This total not remembering is the 2 years since the PA supposedly ended. She doesn't remember calling him a couple times a month (and however many times he called her). She says she doesn't think (ie. can't remember) she ever saw him again during this 2 years of phone calls but that she will try to remember. She has finally said she will go to counselling to see if she can get it all together. To me, that's her "out". If she tells me now she does, in fact, remember all this but was afraid to tell me then I have to contend with her being a liar in addition to the details. If she goes to counselling and through that is "able to remember" then it's just the details and she doesn't have to confess to being a liar.


So you know from her about how often and where they met to have the PA?


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

I said I would update so here goes. I allowed her to come home tonight at her request to talk.

When she got home I asked her if she had anything different to tell me becuase if not we didn't have anything left to discuss. She started to say something about her memory problem. I stopped her and asked if she would be willing to take a ploygraph so I could know if this memory problem really existed. She said she would take it. I asked her to read the newbie thread that Almostrecovered led me to and she did.

There was a pause and I could see the reluctance in her face. I said to her "I know you're covering it up, you know you're covering it up. Our marriage may be over already, the information you give me if you're honest may end it as well....that I can't say for sure. What I can say with absolute certainty is that if you continue on with this memory problem story, when, not if, it is revealed to be a lie...there is no marriage"

She came clean with everything. She talked about the phone calls. She saw him once more during this time which the OM has since confirmed. She said she was ashamed of herself, hates herself and that she was protecting both herself and me. She said she didn't think I really wanted and/or needed to know these things. She said that she felt that if I knew the rest of the story that our marriage was over and that she had dug herself so deep with her lies she didn't know how to recover from it.....that it almost became a habit.

There are no more holes in the timeline....tonight she answered every question that I felt she may have lied about with the truth and I can say that becuase for the first time, her answers make sense.

This doesn't mean I'm ready to let her back....despite some of the comments today I'm not in denial, I'm not a masochist....I'm just a guy who was trying to save his family....save myself from financial destitution and save my 6 and 5 year old girls from the fallout of divorce. If divorce is the right choice then that is what will be made. If I can somehow get over this with her, try to rebuild respect and trust then that is what will be done. I love her but will not stay at any cost....but won't run because it's "easier". Whatever choice I make from here on will be because it is right for me and my girls.

Thank you all so much for your comments, advice and support. I will be on these boards a lot I think....sometimes to help and sometimes to seek it. Thank you again


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

So if you do try to R , in addition to no contact she MUST throw out everything that was art of the affair. Every piece of clothing she wore fir him, the underwire, the dresses,matches he's, the jewelry, even the makeup. If she used it with him,it goes.

However even though she came clean, there still the fact that it didn't rally end back then. How woud she ever be able to convince you she isn't doing it again?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

One of the many questions left to consider Shaggy.....though she didn't convince me this time either...I am educated and will be more aware. If we continue on and she does indeed do it again, then I may have wasted more time but I can move on knowing I did all I could and she can live with being a *****


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## 5stringpicker (Feb 11, 2012)

The good part Borderline is you broke her and proved to her you ain't no fool. Let her know if she stays its your way or the highway and trust is going to be a long time coming. 
The trouble with cheaters is there's a perpetual need to fill holes (no pun intended) in their own life and they have a hard or even impossible time stopping. I know this because I was one. Its often an addiction. It took me 30 years to control it and I've been "sober" for about 12 years. So watch your back.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Unless you know for certain whether you want to R or D, I would suggest that you give yourself some time to decide what you want and inform your wife - if you haven't done so already -that the marriage is on probation until further notice.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

She has given you every excuse in the book for her stonewalling you

You say she is doing the right things, but at this point especially if there is to be a R.---There must be accountability on her part.

You are in law enforcement, so you know, a criminal doesn't reform, and change until/unless there is punishment.

In your wife's case you need to be somewhat harsh with her at this point, You know what boundaries are needed, and what type of action consequences that need to take place should she again violate---even 10 yrs down the line. She has to know what she has done, especially this cover-up of the last many months.------If she percieves you of handling this situation weakly, she may cheat again, knowing she can get away with it.

Also what of her lover---he knew he was breaking your mge., apart, in the early A., and now he continued to willingly participate in continuing to wreck your mge., and your children's lives---with him being a neightbor---that situation needs to be dealt with, for they will have contact with each other, even if its just by sight.----She obviously felt something for him, as she has been with him for close to 4 years, and during that time she very happily relegated you to sloppy 2nds.---all of these things must be dealt with----especially if you wish to continue this mge.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Will you make her win you back? Or will you take her back as is? I think she needs a process, for herself as much as you. I let her stay where she is through counseling, then see how it goes. You take her back now, and she was just rewarded for lying to you. She can't be sure that you will forgive her, and I hope for your sake she isn't reading your posts here.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Initfortheduration said:


> Will you make her win you back? Or will you take her back as is? I think she needs a process, for herself as much as you. I let her stay where she is through counseling, then see how it goes. You take her back now, and she was just rewarded for lying to you. She can't be sure that you will forgive her, and I hope for your sake she isn't reading your posts here.


:iagree:

I have to do a facepalm every time I read from the newly betrayed that they let their WS read this forum or want them to read this forum in a desperate hope that it will make their WS come to their senses or snap them out of the fog. I know this forum is public, but their is some information here where WS can use to take it further underground. This should be a safe place. Copying and pasting to a different document is fine, but to let your WS in on your game plan and the advice? 

For the newly betrayed, your WS isn't suddenly going to have an epiphany from reading here. Only hard consequences for their bad choices do.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Until you both come to a greater understanding of matters, it would be better not to let the WS read the posts esp your posts here.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you researched this with psychaiatrist? You need to get solid facts not endless speculation. I believe there could be many possibilities but it will take a professional to figure it out. 

The thing is if she is simply lying,its about the poorest excuse she could have come up with. Sure looks like she could have come up with something better.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

the good news is that you are taking the right steps in preserving your self worth and understanding what is and is not acceptable in your situation


that said, you need to recognize that R in your case will be a very hard road to take. R is a precious gift that should not be given without you first receiving no contact, complete transparency and true remorse. Basically she has to be willing to do just about damn near anything for this to work for you to heal. AND that healing will take years. Years, not days, not weeks, not months but years of not being able to trust, not being able to find inner peace. Sure you will have some really great days and feelings in a proper R, but that voice of self-preservation in the back of your head will be so afraid of it happening again.

You need to think long and hard to know if it will be worth it.


Good luck- whatever your decision may be I will do my best to help you.


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

I haven't allowed her to see my posts and have told her with her agreement that this was my personal, private discussion.

I copied and pasted the relevant information from the site and others into a word document for her to read.

She,regardless of my decision concerning R or not, is going for IC. She has offered full transparency and NC. OM doesn't live anywhere near us anymore and is in a completely different circle so NC won't be complicated by that at least.

I did tell her that if there is R that it will be years or work, of no trust, continuing hurt etc. Says. She understands but actions will certainly speak louder than words. 

Thank you all again and I will be here for a long time


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

borderline said:


> I haven't allowed her to see my posts and have told her with her agreement that this was my personal, private discussion.
> 
> I copied and pasted the relevant information from the site and others into a word document for her to read.
> 
> ...


:smthumbup:


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

always good to see them listen and process quickly

makes me proud..
sniff sniff


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

LOL, AlmostR



borderline said:


> She has offered full transparency and NC.


I hope you have explained to her that transparency includes coming clean to you about everything you are asking her.

Cause stonewalling & claiming amnesia over something so major as a TWO year affair is the exact opposite of transparency.

Did you give her the Word document?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

I am a little confused here. Has there been any contact since May 2011? 

And she kept lying and lying and lying. She had affair for 4 years in an 8 year marriage. I think you called her bullsh!t out well. Are you prepared to trust her again? Atleast you have the truth now(or not?)

She had a chance to come clean but she still kept on lying about breaking up after the IC. Looks like she wants to blame the PPD for her affair.

Does she have a lying problem in general?


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Take your time and process exactly what you need from her if you should decide to R. Put your boundaries out there and make them strong and impenetrable. Make sure she knows the consequences of another slip if you do indeed R. Most important, work on yourself so you don't feel guilt when you do the things necessary to rebuild trust. Too often as time goes on the BS feels bad that they are continually invading the privacy of the WS. Remember, there is no privacy in marriage. My wife and I are 20 years out from our own D-Day and we still check each other's phone records, computer browser history, Facebook accounts etc. A lot of people here call that babysitting. I call it opportunity and verification.


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## 5stringpicker (Feb 11, 2012)

Like they say, "people who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Gosh, just googled post pardum depresiion amnesia and got over 3000000 hits. Not only amnesia but things as bad as hallucinations. Bleah


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Borderline,

I am glad you finally got the truth.

It is a start if you can let it be and if she is willing to do the heavy lifting and tell the truth.

HM64


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

We are still separated with her having time at home. I have made it very clear that I am not ready to make an R or D decision right now and she has responded that she fully understands.

I have given her a copy of the post I found on the site about what her role is so to speak and what she is to expect from me.....I don't remember the OP of that one but pretty sure it was on almostR's newbie post. She has read it and has said she will do all so I will see if that holds true.

She is seeking information on the net and through setting up an app't with a counselor on how to deal with "my own shame and self hate for what I've done to you and us". She is no longer blaming the PPD....stating that it was a factor in our communication breakdown and instead of listening to me that something was wrong and she needed help, she went to OM. She has, at least verbally, taken full responsibility for her decisions. I will add that the majority of these things have come without prompt or demand from me.

Both W and OM have stated (separately) that there has been NC since May of last year. W has volunteered to do a NC letter despite there being NC since may.

I am proceeding slowly and cautiously. This could be real remorse (and I feel it is) or it could very well be placative behaviour to avoid taking real responsibility ....I am,understandably, cynical.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Are you in IC (individual counseling)? TAM is a great place for emotional support but it can't take the place of IC.


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

Being arranged as we speak. Its nice as work provides it free so yes, will be going to IC


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Excellent. Your healing comes FIRST. It is vital not just for your own well being but for your children's well being as well.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Any updates borderline? Just read your post in another thread.


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## borderline (Feb 16, 2012)

Hi warlock. I have still not made up my mind to R or D though I may be nearing the point where I feel better equipped to make a decision. W has been doing all the right things and is not pressing for a decision. She has started IC (as have I) .

I will see if she shows she is in it for the long haul in terms of the difficulties there will be and the work required of her and I if I decide to stay.

In short, not rushing, I'm feeling a bit better and she's doing all the right things for now.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Its been 2yrs, one month since I confronted and I still have not made a dicision. Thats the deal with us , I can D any time and she can continue to repair the marriage with a real R, or not!

Right now both of us have a pretty good idea of what we are capable of doing, we have faith that the other will do the right thing to keep the other around.

Some how we have managed to do the right thing for each other and we keep waking up next to each other. 

There is hope and no need to tell her what you deside, it will be her job to fix this and keep you around, period. Just like it could be your job to forgive( but not forget) or bail.

Now that the both of you are educated with this crap, then there should be no misstake what will happen if it happens again! And for that fact there should be no reason for "it" to happen again period.

Once your chick fixes her self then she can fix *her* marriage! 

The rules have changed and your chick made the rule changes and now she can accept them or not.


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