# At what point are female/male friendships a problem?



## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

The answer may be "when you let it become one". This may all be on me - we'll see.

Me 44/him 43. Me married once, one child, single now for 8 years. Him married once, no kids, separated for 11 months. Dating 7 months. (Yeah, give me that lecture, too.)

He is VERY social. Tons of great buddies from high school and college that still get together very often - some local, some not. Active in church, has friends from there. He does a LOT of stuff with male friends - pro sporting events, fundraising events, sees friend's kids sporting events...

He "can't" introduce me to a large circle of friends who know his ex because she was a WW and it might affect his property division if she perceives he's moved on... but no real legal recourse. He said he wasn't ready for her to know about me.

His family (not in town) knows about me and my daughter, as well as some of his friends who no longer have any ties to his wife know we date and I have met his sister but that was before we were exclusive.

My problem? He goes out with female friends. I'm a single mom and I can't go out and have dinner and drinks until 10pm on a weeknight. I get that it's not fair to think he can't and one of the things I love is how socially vibrant he is. He doesn't hide his activity from me but he'll just say "going out with friends" and then I found out it was with two single female friends.

I can see writing this out it is MY problem, not his. I'm insecure in this relationship. He's not divorced, I'm hoping it's not rebound (he says it isn't but it can happen) and I haven't heard those three little words yet. He's very cautious of his feelings. He spends at least one weeknight with me and my daughter, he comes to her sporting events, too but this is the NORM for him, not anything special for him. 

Add to the mix I spent Friday night with him and finally initiated intimacy int he middle of the night when it was obvious it wasn't going to happen (and we haven't since September) and I think he's pulling away.

Paranoia? Insecurity? Dating sux - I'm "built" for marriage, not the roller coaster ride of dating. Should I just wait this out for a few months and see how things progress as he goes through the divorce and property settlement? See if he invites me to church, to meet family or friends... I don't know if I'm being considerate and understanding or stupid.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

EnjoliWoman said:


> ...he'll just say "going out with friends" and then I found out it was with two single female friends.


Right about there is where it becomes a problem.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

MrK said:


> Right about there is where it becomes a problem.


Usually it's a mixed group but he doesn't bother to clarify... should he? One of them posted a photo of the food and tagged him on FB and he left it - wasn't trying to hide it.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

I don't know, Enjoli. I'm a woman with guy friends that I'll NEVER SLEEP WITH. EVER. NEVER EVER EVER (like a Taylor Swift song).

Maybe it's that way with him and his women friends.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Does he go out with you at all? How often do you guys have sex? I would KILL to have a woman initiate sex with me. That includes my frigid wife. 7 months of dating, you guys should be in the honeymoon stage still. He seems to be pulling away.

Also, my gaydar is going off. Did he EVER seem to enjoy sex with you?


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## 45188 (Sep 13, 2012)

A man's friendship with a woman is driven by sex: study - Life & Style - NZ Herald News


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/49802-pointers-ladies.html


Sounds like your husband needs to read 
How to keep from cheating on your wife - National infidelity | Examiner.com


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> I don't know, Enjoli. I'm a woman with guy friends that I'll NEVER SLEEP WITH. EVER. NEVER EVER EVER (like a Taylor Swift song).
> 
> Maybe it's that way with him and his women friends.



I can GUARANTEE your male friends would sleep with you in a HEARTBEAT! Guarantee. And if her hubby is straight, he wants to have sex with both of those single gals he went out to dinner with. GUARANTEE. What the OP has going for her is that those 2 gal pals feel the way you do.

I was AMAZED to find out how few women realize that their guy buddies want to screw them.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

OP, if your BF is legally separated, I can't see how his W knowing about you could affect their division of property when they divorce. When is his divorce likely to become final?

If you're in an exclusive relationship, I don't think he should be hanging out with female friends. But if you feel that he's pulling away from you right now, this mightn't be the time to have that sort of talk with him.

I think in your shoes I'd probably start distancing myself a little from him, by making arrangements to see my own friends and keeping busy. Perhaps when his divorce is final he'll feel more settled and open to letting you know how he feels about you.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

MrK said:


> I can GUARANTEE your male friends would sleep with you in a HEARTBEAT! Guarantee. And if her hubby is straight, he wants to have sx with both of those single gals he went out to dinner with. GUARANTEE. What the OP has going for her is that those 2 gal pals feel the way you do.
> 
> I was AMAZED to find out how few women realize that their guy buddies want to screw them.


Yup...all of that.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

MrK said:


> I was AMAZED to find out how few women realize that their guy buddies want to screw them.



Greatly goes to explain the actions of my STBXW!


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

MrK said:


> I can GUARANTEE your male friends would sleep with you in a HEARTBEAT! Guarantee. And if her hubby is straight, he wants to have sex with both of those single gals he went out to dinner with. GUARANTEE. What the OP has going for her is that those 2 gal pals feel the way you do.
> 
> I was AMAZED to find out how few women realize that their guy buddies want to screw them.



This truly does amaze me, MrK...

Perhaps it explains why a good male friend disappeared off my radar when I introduced him to my partner...


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Again, NOT husband - boyfriend of 7 months. I realize I'm on TAM but there's no where I've found that gives reasonable dating advice that isn't directed toward the 20-30 y/o crowd.

Since he seems to have SO many friends of both genders and knows the pain of being cheated on, I'd like to think he wouldn't dare and that he'd end it with me before perusing anything.

And I feel I'm unreasonable to ask him to sit at home alone just because I can't go out.  One girl is 31 and very pretty and the other is hard to tell as she's a pacific islander. 

We fooled around a few times before finally having sex in August. Sex one more time. Then an overnight where we had to be up at 4am and he was too tired followed by reunion, business trips, etc. Plus since my daughter is home always except for every other weekend, opportunity only knocks twice a month. Planets must align.

Friday he was tired from business trip so I woke him up at 6am w/ a BJ then nothing. I realize he might not be up for another O but what about morning sex? Shower sex? My having a turn? 

He's very self conscious about his body (big deal - he has a flabby tummy - I'm not perfect at size 16) and VERY cautious about relationships and probably less sexual partners than me.

I'm childless this weekend so it will be interesting to see if he stays over and what happens. The next weekend Im without child he's going out of town to stay w/ a married friend to go to a college football game so a month will pass. 

Could be he's severely LD. I think he needs HRT but I don't know if it's appropriate I suggest that so soon in our relationship. 

UG.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

*At what point are female/male friendships a problem?*

It's a problem the minute it starts, don't allow it! If he insists on it, move on, he's not marriage material yet.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> OP, if your BF is legally separated, I can't see how his W knowing about you could affect their division of property when they divorce. When is his divorce likely to become final?
> 
> If you're in an exclusive relationship, I don't think he should be hanging out with female friends. But if you feel that he's pulling away from you right now, this mightn't be the time to have that sort of talk with him.
> 
> I think in your shoes I'd probably start distancing myself a little from him, by making arrangements to see my own friends and keeping busy. Perhaps when his divorce is final he'll feel more settled and open to letting you know how he feels about you.


Hes not LEGALLY separated but physically separated which counts in my state. But she doesn't yet know that he has proof of adultery which can affect equitable distribution. I don't see how her knowing about me matters except maybe she'll feel sorry for him and settle for more if she thinks he's alone and devastated? Divorce can be filed in January.

Yeah, I don't want to become clingy and drive him away. I am careful about that and do my own thing. I think that's the best route to take. He's making plans to come to daughter's sports event mid-November. Thanksgiving plans are apart and were made months ago. I'm hoping I get an invite to meet his family at Christmas since kiddo will be with her Dad and I'll be alone on Christmas.

I guess keep being myself, try to not over-think his social calendar and see where this goes in the next couple months is best.


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## 45188 (Sep 13, 2012)

Almost every man on here is going to tell you the same thing Enjoli. Only women will tell you otherwise. Men and women can't be friends.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

MrK said:


> I can GUARANTEE your male friends would sleep with you in a HEARTBEAT! Guarantee. And if her hubby is straight, he wants to have sex with both of those single gals he went out to dinner with. GUARANTEE. What the OP has going for her is that those 2 gal pals feel the way you do.
> 
> I was AMAZED to find out how few women realize that their guy buddies want to screw them.


Mine don't. Really. I give off some vibe that makes me unapproachable to men, I think.


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## 45188 (Sep 13, 2012)

Just because you give off a vibe doesnt mean they don't want to sleep with you. The second you open the sex door, every one of them would take it.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

> I was AMAZED to find out how few women realize that their guy buddies want to screw them.


Yeah, and you're scaring the CR*P out of us!!!!:lol:


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Mine don't. Really. I give off some vibe that makes me unapproachable to men, I think.


Give them the slightest hint that they have a shot with you, and I bet you'd see their inner caveman come out.

Years ago, I thought I could keep a close female friend b/c I wasn't really attracted to her. One night...a few too many beers, and my hand was up her shirt.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Hes not LEGALLY separated but physically separated which counts in my state. But she doesn't yet know that he has proof of adultery which can affect equitable distribution. I don't see how her knowing about me matters except maybe she'll feel sorry for him and settle for more if she thinks he's alone and devastated? Divorce can be filed in January.
> 
> Yeah, I don't want to become clingy and drive him away. I am careful about that and do my own thing. I think that's the best route to take. He's making plans to come to daughter's sports event mid-November. Thanksgiving plans are apart and were made months ago. I'm hoping I get an invite to meet his family at Christmas since kiddo will be with her Dad and I'll be alone on Christmas.
> 
> I guess keep being myself, try to not over-think his social calendar and see where this goes in the next couple months is best.


I think I'd be inclined to go with the flow and see how things go after his divorce is final. It's good that you're doing your own thing when you're not seeing him, and I'd keep that up.

People can get very stressed before a divorce (and sometimes not show it), and this could well be affecting his libido. You also mentioned that he goes to church? Subconsciously, there could be some guilt at play regarding him dating whilst still married. A bit frustrating for you, but hopefully things will come right after his divorce. If not, then it's back to the drawing board.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> The answer may be "when you let it become one". This may all be on me - we'll see.
> 
> Me 44/him 43. Me married once, one child, single now for 8 years. Him married once, no kids, separated for 11 months. Dating 7 months. * (Yeah, give me that lecture, too.)*
> 
> He "can't" introduce me to a large circle of friends who know his ex because she was a WW and it might affect his property division if she perceives he's moved on... but no real legal recourse. He said he wasn't ready for her to know about me..


Oooh! Lecture time! 

Anytime you are dating a man who is married (yes, he is married), it's got DRAMA written all over it. 

Anytime you are dating a guy who is freshly separated from his wife (by your math, you began dating only 4 months post-him-separating-from-wifey), it's got DRAMA written all over it. 

A guy freshly separated from his wife is like a hungry man in the desert (usually). The last thing on his mind is usually a BONAFIDE commitment or super-serious-relationship. Sure, it can happen, but it's a rarity. He is so excited to see and meet different women at this point! He has just been released from a prison of monogamy (lol) so he is totally into how many chicks are smiling at him, how guilt-free he feels about hanging with women now without it being "weird" cause he's married (but yes, he's married anyway in your case), so yeah, 'serious relationship' ain't gonna be the one thing on his mind.

With all of this said: your thread question--it's a problem when one spends more time with these friends than they do you; it's a problem when they confide in eachother about their relationship problems; it's a problem when they have feelings; it's a problem when it interferes with your relationship. So many little things.

In your case, I think those things are the least of your worries. 

Anytime you are dating a man who isn't "ready" to introduce you to his friends, his family, his "life," then you are wasting your time unless you like being the sidepiece/lover. Unless you are ok with being hidden from his Real World. It can work... if you are down for all of that and/or you are also using him as a lover-only and not ready to introduce him to the world.

I say... cut this guy loose until he is single and/or ready to introduce you to his Real Life. 

Because he's not ready for that yet. So cut him loose. Stop sleeping with him, being his fall-back girl, being his "interim" girl. You may not want to be the rebound, but to me, it sounds like you are. 

Look, you know men. When they're into you, they are. You said, after all of the above, that you feel he's pulling away. He probably is. 

In the future, don't date married dudes!


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

MrK said:


> I can GUARANTEE your male friends would sleep with you in a HEARTBEAT! Guarantee. And if her hubby is straight, he wants to have sex with both of those single gals he went out to dinner with. GUARANTEE. What the OP has going for her is that those 2 gal pals feel the way you do.
> 
> *I was AMAZED to find out how few women realize that their guy buddies want to screw them*.


HAHA! Was just talking about this today! I am completely fascinated by this subject! 

Personally, up until a few months ago, I was one of those women fell in the camp that thought _"No no no my guy friends do NOT want to have sex with me; do not want anything like that with me." _ Then, after so much reading at TAM, I asked one of my oldest and only male friends this question, asked if it was true and he said "Jelly, I'll be honest--I would totally have sex with you. In fact, I want to have sex with you."

Theory proven! 



EnjoliWoman said:


> Again, NOT husband - boyfriend of 7 months. I


Erm, he's not your husband because he's someone else's husband! This man has a wife!



EnjoliWoman said:


> Friday he was tired from business trip so I woke him up at 6am w/ a BJ then nothing. I realize he might not be up for another O but what about morning sex? Shower sex? My having a turn?


Um, just no.

Why are you giving this man heavenly morning wake-you-up BJs when he can't even introduce you to his friends/family??? Save that awesomeness for a man who isn't ashamed to show you off in public. A man who WANTS to show you off in public. A man who is... _da da da_... SINGLE! 

:smthumbup:


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I think he needs HRT but I don't know if it's appropriate I suggest that *so soon in our relationship*.


I gotta say, it seems like awfully soon in a relationship to have to work so hard. Seven months in, it should be FUN. It sounds like you two are in very different places. Like you said, you live the "kid life" and it's very different from a "not-kid life". I'd be pretty resentful if someone wanted me to give up the people that I socialize with just because THEY can't go out at night. Then add in the frustration with being able to date openly, mismatched sex drives, finding time to be together.....are you really wanting to work this hard at this point? I mean, if you're already feeling this way, what's going to happen in a year or two? It doesn't seem as though either of you are wrong about any of this, but it doesn't make you right, or right together, either.

Dating is like jeans shopping. Hopefully less traumatic though! But it's all about trying people on until you find that one that makes you feel like a million bucks....then you do whatever you have to do to get them! :smthumbup:


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

At what point is it a problem? 

My answer is as soon as your married! My husband and I ditched our opposite sex friends as soon as we married. It's worked out well for the last 12 years.

It's very important to put your marriage as a number 1 priority and not crossing any boundaries.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> ...he said "Jelly, I'll be honest--I would totally have sx with you. In fact, I want to have sx with you."


You should date this guy, b/c that kind of honesty is rare. 

Most guy friends would lie - "No, I'm not like those OTHER GUYS."


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> At what point are female/male friendships a problem?


Exactly at the point where you think there can be such a thing between two people who are physically attractive. Men don't have female "friends". We have female "acquaintances". The only possible female friends that we can have are just fugly. Then we can be friends. 

Also, if you think your male friends (unless gay, severely sick or mentally disturbed) don't want to bang you, think again. It's not so. You're sending "unavailable" signs and don't need the complication. But if you were to offer stringless sex i guarantee they would take the offer (unless they had another woman they risked to lose).

Whenever a guy uses the word "friend" when talking about an attractive female, read "woman i'm keeping around cuz i'm working on banging her in the future". If you here the line "just friends" from a guy, unless she is fugly, he is lying his ass off. 

How do i know? I'm a man. I talk to other men. Never in my life have i met a guy who talked to girls for "friendship". That's bullsh!t. 

I'm predicting that 95% of the people who disagree are young women. The rest are mature women with little experience in men and the occasional low testosterone guy who keeps wondering why his beard doesn't grow like the other dudes.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

kipani said:


> Just because you give off a vibe doesnt mean they don't want to sleep with you. The second you open the sex door, every one of them would take it.


Jeepers, I would like to think I have the self control not too. 

I love my wife and can't imagine cheating on her.

If I was single, then maybe, but I'm a relationship sort of man, I'd suck at being a PUA.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

thunderstruck said:


> You should date this guy, b/c that kind of honesty is rare.
> 
> *Most guy friends would lie - "No, I'm not like those OTHER GUYS*."


Haha. I definitely appreciated his candor. 

I will never see opposite-sex friendships the same way again.



costa200 said:


> Exactly at the point where you think there can be such a thing between two people who are physically attractive. Men don't have female "friends". We have female "acquaintances". *The only possible female friends that we can have are just fugly.* Then we can be friends.


:rofl:


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## Airbus (Feb 8, 2012)

Have you ever read "He's just not that into you"? That book was a lifesaver for me. I'm sorry, but the guy's giving you tons of hints that he's not available, from lack of intimacy, dating other women, and STILL being married. Step back and think about it; ask yourself if this is the guy for you?


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## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

Friday he was tired from business trip so I woke him up at 6am w/ a BJ then nothing. I realize he might not be up for another O but what about morning sex? Shower sex? My having a turn? WHAT A WOMEN!!!! Maybe he is trying to get some space to make sure your what he wants. He hasn't been separated long and not yet divorced. I think if I was in that situation I would be very cautious and move slow to make sure I was not making a mistake, plus he may be enjoying being a semi single man.Talk to him about the sex maybe he is unsure about the relationship and doesn't want to feel like his using you or thinking with the wrong head


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Oooh! Lecture time!
> 
> Anytime you are dating a man who is married (yes, he is married), it's got DRAMA written all over it.
> 
> ...


I broke my rule about dating married/separated men. When he contacted me I liked everything about him but said nope.

He DOES confide in me... all of the things that are going on with the divorce and his life in general. I don't think these friends replace me. Texts me all day every day (unless golfing). I reply but don't initiate contact - I'm not always in the wings for him.

I like having plans and someone to do stuff with so I don't think I'm ready to cut it off. I want a date for boss's holiday party! :rofl: I'm acutely aware we are in different places and any time I mention that he said "oh brother" as if to say "don't be silly". He has said he isn't dating other women and we agree we are exclusive as long as there is sex. 

I know the risks so think I'm willing to be his lover and see if that changes after the divorce in January. If not, good bye. I'll give it til then. After all, with our every-other-weekend arrangement, it's not that long. I think if I cut him out now, I'll be cut out for good because of the level of hurt he's experienced with WW.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Airbus said:


> Have you ever read "He's just not that into you"? That book was a lifesaver for me. I'm sorry, but the guy's giving you tons of hints that he's not available, from lack of intimacy, dating other women, and STILL being married. Step back and think about it; ask yourself if this is the guy for you?


Yup. Aside from this issue he seems VERY into me. And going to dinner w/ two women isn't "dating" other women. I don't think I'm being ignorant here - he has very high personal integrity standards.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> I think I'd be inclined to go with the flow and see how things go after his divorce is final. It's good that you're doing your own thing when you're not seeing him, and I'd keep that up.
> 
> People can get very stressed before a divorce (and sometimes not show it), and this could well be affecting his libido. You also mentioned that he goes to church? Subconsciously, there could be some guilt at play regarding him dating whilst still married. A bit frustrating for you, but hopefully things will come right after his divorce. If not, then it's back to the drawing board.


I might be selecting the answer I want to hear but this seems more like our situation.

He's worth finding out if there is a future, anyway.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

As to the guy friends, I don't want just a fling so I guess we'll never know.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

WyshIknew said:


> Jeepers, I would like to think I have the self control not too.
> 
> I love my wife and can't imagine cheating on her.


And how many women friends do you call just to shoot the bull, go out for a beer with, just hang out with? 

I'm guessing none. Since you wouldn't sleep around on your wife, you don't cultivate friendships with other women. Hence, proving my point instead of disproving it.

And I'm not talking about women at work you converse with while on the job or out at a social work event. I'm talking going out of your way to meet outside of work situations.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

MrK said:


> And how many women friends do you call just to shoot the bull, go out for a beer with, just hang out with?
> 
> I'm guessing none. Since you wouldn't sleep around on your wife, you don't cultivate friendships with other women. Hence, proving my point instead of disproving it.
> 
> And I'm not talking about women at work you converse with while on the job or out at a social work event. I'm talking going out of your way to meet outside of work situations.


Yes you're right. Never thought about it really.

I certainly wouldn't cultivate a friendship with a woman to have sex with her.

But yes, see your point.

To be honest, with work, kids, grandkids and keeping Mrs Wysh satisfied and happy this poor old body couldn't manage another woman.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> Yes you're right. Never thought about it really.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't cultivate a friendship with a woman to have sex with her.
> 
> ...


And that's exactly the point. For you to have a close female friend, it would require a lot of energy. You'd only put that much energy into a woman if you were trying to make it go somewhere. 

I'm the same as you. I have a few male friends (who I only see a couple times a month at best) and a few female acquaintences (usually wives of said friends LOL)

PS to Enjoli, is this his first relationship after the divorce?


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

> Whenever a guy uses the word "friend" when talking about an attractive female, read "woman i'm keeping around cuz i'm working on banging her in the future".


ARRRGH! *Where was TAM when I was in my 20s *and could have USED some good guy 'acquaintences' (see, I ALMOST put 'friends', but now I know better) to wise me up????? 

I think I DEFINITELY have to send my 15yo daughter here to TAM in a few years when she's an adult. Then she won't have to wait as long as I did to get WISED UP.

X O X O X O to the guys at TAM with the sack to tell it straight!


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

Dad&Hubby said:


> PS to Enjoli, is this his first relationship after the divorce?


It presumably will be....once he's divorced, that is.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> And that's exactly the point. For you to have a close female friend, it would require a lot of energy. You'd only put that much energy into a woman if you were trying to make it go somewhere.
> 
> I'm the same as you. I have a few male friends (who I only see a couple times a month at best) and a few female acquaintences (usually wives of said friends LOL)
> 
> PS to Enjoli, is this his first relationship after the divorce?


Yes, it is his first relationship. He's very conservative physically and takes a long time for him to get close to someone. He doesn't serial date and never did. He's had two serious relationships - one engagement long distance college girl friend who cheated on him, then wife who cheated on him. So he's VERY VERY cautious. It took 5 months before we had sex.

The 31y/o is a manager at a bar/restaurant he frequents (his "Cheers" bar) and befriended. The other he because friends with because she used to date a friend of his but now they are all in the same social group.


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## jane1213 (Aug 10, 2012)

I partly disagree with this theory that every guy wants to sleep with his female friend. Well, yes , i was with this male friend once at a nightclub and we ended up hugging, touching..etc but now he insists that we are "just friends" even though he knows that I am head over heels for him. I am good looking and young. I am 25 and he is 31.

Yes, he is getting married now but he was getting married , too, that night . He didn't tell me then that he was getting married.


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## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

The 31y/o is a manager at a bar/restaurant he frequents (his "Cheers" bar) and befriended. The other he because friends with because she used to date a friend of his but now they are all in the same social group. 
I will say as a man I can talk more to a women about personal issues than with a guy and maybe thats what he is doing. I've had female friends in the past that I told things that I would have never told a guy.


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## 45188 (Sep 13, 2012)

homebuilder said:


> The 31y/o is a manager at a bar/restaurant he frequents (his "Cheers" bar) and befriended. The other he because friends with because she used to date a friend of his but now they are all in the same social group.
> I will say as a man I can talk more to a women about personal issues than with a guy and maybe thats what he is doing. I've had female friends in the past that I told things that I would have never told a guy.


This is so refreshing, but can you have a close personal friendship with one?


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## Love Song (Jan 16, 2012)

kipani said:


> Almost every man on here is going to tell you the same thing Enjoli. Only women will tell you otherwise. Men and women can't be friends.


Comments like these make me wish my male friend would agree to come on here and help me explain our strictly platonic long lasting genuine friendship. Some guys just don't get it because they themselves will never do it. That doesn't mean it can't happen.


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## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

This is so refreshing, but can you have a close personal friendship with one?
To be honest I haven't had a female friend like that since I was an adult, but when I was a teenager one of my best friends was a girl and we were really close talked about everything and all the time. I actually dated her best friend. After we had been friends about 2 years I did ask her out and she said no, but a few days later I thought about it and I was so glad she did say no and I even told her that. We would have never been good as a couple. I eventually graduated High school and she moved away and haven't talk to her since but I do miss the friendship we had even now over 15 years later


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## galian84 (May 7, 2012)

OS friendships become a problem when appropriate boundaries are not set or followed...


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

homebuilder said:


> The 31y/o is a manager at a bar/restaurant he frequents (his "Cheers" bar) and befriended. The other he because friends with because she used to date a friend of his but now they are all in the same social group.
> I will say as a man I can talk more to a women about personal issues than with a guy and maybe thats what he is doing. I've had female friends in the past that I told things that I would have never told a guy.


This is what I'm hoping (tonight he's texting and cheerful like always) and that the other issues are a result of almost-divorced stress. Add to that the separation issues including property split hasn't happened because his lawyer had cancer that came out of remission. 

I know - it sounds like a bunch of crazy excuses but this is our life! LOL And I know I'm at home w/ a kid and he's not and really all I can do is hope when things normalize we'll be somewhat on the same page, and if not - well I don't have to go 5 years between good sex again.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

homebuilder said:


> The 31y/o is a manager at a bar/restaurant he frequents (his "Cheers" bar) and befriended. The other he because friends with because she used to date a friend of his but now they are all in the same social group.
> I will say as a man I can talk more to a women about personal issues than with a guy and maybe thats what he is doing. I've had female friends in the past that I told things that I would have never told a guy.


I completely understand the telling a woman before guy friend aspect. I have not told my close guy friends about any of the real issues in my marriage. My close female friends know all about it though.


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## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

I think most men have trouble talking to other men and that is probably silly butI'm just not comfortable talking to other guys
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

homebuilder said:


> I think most men have trouble talking to other men and that is probably silly butI'm just not comfortable talking to other guys
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. If we were to ever speak with a counselor, I don't think I could do it fully and honestly if it were a man.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

MrK said:


> I can GUARANTEE your male friends would sleep with you in a HEARTBEAT! Guarantee. And if her hubby is straight, he wants to have sex with both of those single gals he went out to dinner with. GUARANTEE. What the OP has going for her is that those 2 gal pals feel the way you do.
> 
> I was AMAZED to find out how few women realize that their guy buddies want to screw them.


QFT. This.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

kipani said:


> Sounds like your husband needs to read
> How to keep from cheating on your wife - National infidelity | Examiner.com


Good stuff.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

jane1213 said:


> I partly disagree with this theory that every guy wants to sleep with his female friend. Well, yes , i was with this male friend once at a nightclub and we ended up hugging, touching..etc but now he insists that we are "just friends" even though he knows that I am head over heels for him. I am good looking and young. I am 25 and he is 31.
> 
> Yes, he is getting married now but he was getting married , too, that night . He didn't tell me then that he was getting married.


1 - You're a chick so you have no say in this.
2 - You took a "say" anyhow and ended up disproving the point you just tried to make.

Give it up gals. No matter how badly you want it to be otherwise, your guy pals want to hammer you.

NEXT!


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Love Song said:


> Comments like these make me wish my male friend would agree to come on here and help me explain our strictly platonic long lasting genuine friendship.


If they are honest, I GUARANTEE you would be enlightened.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

OK. Enough of going off on a tangent. "Your" man uses his marital status to date other women while leaving you home. Yes, that little trip with the 2 gals to the bar was a date. If he's not gay, he wants to sleep with them. Of that I have no doubt.

Does he even know you two are dating? Because if he wanted to spend time with you, I'm thinking it would be pretty easy to find a way of doing it without jaepordizing his divorce. 

And I'm glad you're setting yourself up for the "he just finds it easier to talk to women about his problems than men". Because I'm getting ready to try that rap on a hot little single mom in the neighborhood who's pants I want to remove. If you can fall for that line after all of this advice on inter-gender relationships, hottie mom will be pudding in my hands. And I've got my excuse ready for when my wife busts me.

I don't know if we've helped you, but you surely have helped me.

Thanks


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I don't think it's a "date" when it's TWO girls and him... he had these friends before his marriage ended and never cheated, had his chance after separating and the one was single at the same time - nothing.

He knows we are dating, he is my "boyfriend" and knows it and we are exclusive - I have asked outright before we slept together if he was dating anyone else. He's not a player - the farthest thing from it. He's not working all of the angles seeing who will let him in their pants. This guy HAS no game. Really.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

MrK said:


> And how many women friends do you call just to shoot the bull, go out for a beer with, just hang out with?
> 
> I'm guessing none. Since you wouldn't sleep around on your wife, you don't cultivate friendships with other women. Hence, proving my point instead of disproving it.
> 
> And I'm not talking about women at work you converse with while on the job or out at a social work event. I'm talking going out of your way to meet outside of work situations.





Dad&Hubby said:


> And that's exactly the point. For you to have a close female friend, it would require a lot of energy. You'd only put that much energy into a woman if you were trying to make it go somewhere.
> 
> I'm the same as you. I have a few male friends (who I only see a couple times a month at best) and a few female acquaintences (usually wives of said friends LOL)
> 
> PS to Enjoli, is this his first relationship after the divorce?




I don't want to make it seem as though I am some sort of angel because I'm not. I will see a pretty girl and suddenly this vision of her naked underneath me will pop into my head. You sort of think "wow where did that come from?"
I don't pretend to know what women think but I'm sure a woman walks by a man who is her type and secretly imagines bedding him.

However it doesn't mean you have to act on those urges, and if you are married and have any sense at all, if an opposite sex friend becomes a focus of your sexual desire then remove yourself from the equation.

I suppose I am very lucky in that my wife and I are both medium/high drive people. I am not even 'allowed' to masturbate as my wife feels it is up to her to keep me satisfied/empty. I think it helps to avoid straying when you are very satisfied sexually.

It is very easy to let those boundaries drop if you are not careful.
My wife and I were at a party a couple of months ago, she went home early as she wasn't feeling 100%. She insisted I stay and she would call me home if she needed me.
Now I'm not the best looking guy around but for some reason this girl half my age (I already knew her as a friend) seemed to take an interest in me. It probably helped that her boyfriend was a very fat bloke whose sole hobby seemed to be chugging beer.
Quite a bit later all us guys decided to strip off and jump in the jacuzzi naked, the girls joined us but left their bikini bottoms on. This girl then came over and asked if she could sit with me as the other men in the jacuzzi were touching her up. Feeling all protective I said yes, but suggested that rather than sit on my lap she sit between my legs as that seemed better to me.
As the evening wore on I realised that she had gradually moved back until she was squashed right back against me and was pressing her butt back into my penis which was responding. As soon as possible I jumped out for a beer returned and sat _next to her_. 

So because of a few drinks this girl was prepared to act inappropriately with a not too good looking man who is twice her age. In this case the male/female friendship was a problem. However I was able to behave appropriately and nip it in the bud.
I have seen her since and we are fine, she calls me her "jacuzzi buddy"


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

sandc said:


> QFT. This.


What does QFT mean?



EnjoliWoman said:


> He knows *we are dating*, *he is my "boyfriend" *and knows it and *we are exclusive *- *I have asked outright before we slept together if he was dating anyone else. He's not a player -* the farthest thing from it. He's not working all of the angles seeing who will let him in their pants. This guy HAS no game. Really.


The irony of all of those statements is that this man, is in fact, married to another woman.

So your "boyfriend," the guy you are "dating," the guy you are "exclusive with" who isn't a "player" is married. To someone else.

Enjoli--the bottom line is you're not comfortable with what he's doing yet you keep having him sleep over and giving him sex, BJs and your TIME. Why? 

Use this as a lesson in the future: Once a man tells you he is married, "separated," going through a divorce/break up, anything that translates to "NOT single," end the conversation right there.

That way you don't look up one day and it's 7 months later and you're wondering why everything seems so weird/confusing.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

WyshIknew said:


> Quite a bit later all us guys decided to strip off and jump in the jacuzzi naked, the girls joined us but left their bikini bottoms on. This girl then came over and asked if she could sit with me as the other men in the jacuzzi were touching her up. Feeling all protective I said yes, but suggested that rather than sit on my lap she sit between my legs as that seemed better to me.
> As the evening wore on I realised that she had gradually moved back until she was squashed right back against me and was pressing her butt back into my penis which was responding. As soon as possible I jumped out for a beer returned and sat _next to her_.
> 
> So because of a few drinks this girl was prepared to act inappropriately with a not too good looking man who is twice her age. In this case the male/female friendship was a problem. However I was able to behave appropriately and nip it in the bud.
> I have seen her since and we are fine, she calls me her "jacuzzi buddy"


Yikes. Your wife would not be happy about any of that. Major boundary-crossing.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> The answer may be "when you let it become one". This may all be on me - we'll see.
> 
> Me 44/him 43. Me married once, one child, single now for 8 years. Him married once, no kids, separated for 11 months. Dating 7 months. (Yeah, give me that lecture, too.)
> 
> ...


I have a love/hate relationship with this topic...I love talking about it and all the differnt variations of 'friendship' that are involved. But I hate it because it touches a raw nerve for me. Too much past experience with men and their female friends (who really never were friends, they all seemed to be phuck-buddies, exes of some sort, or that wild girl they once had a threesome with).


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> What does QFT mean?


Quoted For Truth





Jellybeans said:


> The irony of all of those statements is that this man, is in fact, married to another woman.
> 
> So your "boyfriend," the guy you are "dating," the guy you are "exclusive with" who isn't a "player" is married. To someone else.
> 
> ...



QFT


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Haha. Thanks.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Yikes. Your wife would not be happy about any of that. Major boundary-crossing.


Told her about it next morning when I arrived home. No secrets as they only bite you in the arse later.

I was honestly very innocent about it as I couldn't see what the attraction would be for her, but suppose it must have been booze.

She was cool about it but said I was handsomer than I thought and she notices me getting checked over sometimes. And that I should be careful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> I realised that she had gradually moved back until she was squashed right back against me and was pressing her butt back into my pnis which was responding.
> 
> However I was able to behave appropriately and nip it in the bud.


Yeah, she nipped your bud alright. 

Alcohol and pools will nuke a friendship quick. Back when I was single, I was at a pool party with alcohol flowing. A female friend got on my back in the pool,and told me to carry her around. It didn't take long for me to figure out that she was grinding her girly parts on me. I guess she wanted to be more than friends, at least while she was buzzed.


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## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I don't think it's a "date" when it's TWO girls and him... he had these friends before his marriage ended and never cheated, had his chance after separating and the one was single at the same time - nothing.
> 
> He knows we are dating, he is my "boyfriend" and knows it and we are exclusive - I have asked outright before we slept together if he was dating anyone else. He's not a player - the farthest thing from it. He's not working all of the angles seeing who will let him in their pants. This guy HAS no game. Really.


I hope that everything works out for you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I don't think it's a "date" when it's TWO girls and him... he had these friends before his marriage ended and never cheated, had his chance after separating and the one was single at the same time - nothing.
> 
> He knows we are dating, he is my "boyfriend" and knows it and we are exclusive - I have asked outright before we slept together if he was dating anyone else. He's not a player - the farthest thing from it. He's not working all of the angles seeing who will let him in their pants. This guy HAS no game. Really.


This makes me think, if that's not a date, then is a threesome not sex? 

A lot of people knew they were married. They still had sex with other people. Read the stories here on TAM. So many men and women had NO idea their spouse was cheating because that was so unlike them. How many times have I read, "I don't know this person anymore."

I'm NOT saying that this is your situation, just saying that this is what everyone is thinking. Empirical evidence has led us to these conclusions.


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## Soifon (Oct 5, 2012)

What concerns me about your relationship with this man is not that he is going out with these two female friends but that I don't see any evidence of an actual bf/gf relationship. Have you been to his home or does he only come to visit you? When he introduced you to his sister how did he introduce you? As his gf, as his friend, or "hi sister, this is Enjoli..." It sounds to me like the only person he has told that you are his GF is you and that is a huge red flag IMO. I don't know all of the details so I could be wrong but I would be more worried about the fact that you really are in no way a part of his life. This has nothing to do with male/female friendships. His actions with you are not matching his words and words should not be blindly trusted.

The only reason I ask these questions is because I met a man after I divorced, he told me he was separated and living apart from his STBXW. He came to visit me all the time, brought his kids over to my home even. I never really thought to go over to his place because he just always came over to mine. Then after a couple of months I get a phone call from his WIFE, not STBXW, to stay away from her husband. They were not separated just having a lot of problems and he was lying to her about needing space whenever he would come over to see me. He was nerdy, didn't seem like the "player" type at all, had his kids around me. I never saw that coming.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

It's not a date because I don't think romantic intentions are there and a date is between two people. Even a "double date" is two couples. Not three. My going out for an after-work drink with two male co-workers doesn't make it a date just because they are opposite sex.

I get it, I get it... and I know JB means well and as I said before I usually have a "rule" against dating guys who have not finalized their divorce. Scouts honor I won't do it again if this relationship doesn't work out!

Now it's too late to undo. I'm just going to see how this plays out.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Soifon said:


> What concerns me about your relationship with this man is not that he is going out with these two female friends but that I don't see any evidence of an actual bf/gf relationship. Have you been to his home or does he only come to visit you? When he introduced you to his sister how did he introduce you? As his gf, as his friend, or "hi sister, this is Enjoli..." It sounds to me like the only person he has told that you are his GF is you and that is a huge red flag IMO. I don't know all of the details so I could be wrong but I would be more worried about the fact that you really are in no way a part of his life. This has nothing to do with male/female friendships. His actions with you are not matching his words and words should not be blindly trusted.


Yes, I've been to his home - that's where I spent last Friday.

He introduced me as "Enjoli" to his sister - we hadn't even kissed when I met her - we'd just started going out and weren't bf/gf at that point.

You hit where my insecurities come from. It's not that I don't trust him with those two women. It's just that I'd like them to know I exist. I met the older pacific islander girl but it was our second date, by accident we were at the same restaurant as his male friend "Pete"; she was his girlfriend. BF saw them on the way out, we stopped for a drink at their table. He told them how we met (match.com). 

Yeah, I worry more that he hasn't introduced me to any friends. I don't know if he has no intention of this going anywhere or if he's just being cautious until he feels like I'm in his life more permanently. I don't know what "my family/select friends know about you" really means to him. I don't know how he refers to me: the "woman he's dating"? No clue.

I really just want to be included in his life. I guess he's not ready for that (yes, JB, I KNOW! LOL) and I'm in a very different place after 7.5 years post divorce (+ 1.5 years of separation) than he is.


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## 45188 (Sep 13, 2012)

I really hope things work out for you.


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## Soifon (Oct 5, 2012)

I know how rough that is. I've been in that position before where you are ready to tell everyone about him and share with your friends and family how happy you are to be with him. Yet when he doesn't want to do that about you, it really hurts. I think it just shows that the two of you really are not on the same page. If I were you (though I've been there too so I know you will stay and figure it out along the way) I would end this and find someone that is just as invested and excited about you as you are about them. Part of that is wanting to kind of "show you off" to friends and family. He isn't doing that and the divorce pending excuse is bs IMO, he isn't ready so move on till he is. If you and him ran into these friends you would be introduced as another friend, that's no way to be in a relationship. It isn't fair to you when you could find someone better.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Well I don't want to break it off with the party this weekend. I don't want him to NOT come to kiddo's sporting event (he has a good camera and is supposed to get really good action shots that I can't get).

I decided that Christmas will be the end and/or conversation about how I feel. Kiddo will be with her dad and I will be all alone at Christmas. If he doesn't want to do something special - go to a party, out, spend New Years, take me to see family... SOMETHING... then it will be time to call it off.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

WyshIknew said:


> Jeepers, I would like to think I have the self control not too.
> 
> I love my wife and can't imagine cheating on her.
> 
> If I was single, then maybe, but I'm a relationship sort of man, I'd suck at being a PUA.


Having control and character has nothing to do with you being attracted to someone. Just becuase you choose not to act on it does not mean you are not attracted to them.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

homebuilder said:


> Friday he was tired from business trip so I woke him up at 6am w/ a BJ then nothing. I realize he might not be up for another O but what about morning sex? Shower sex? My having a turn? WHAT A WOMEN!!!! Maybe he is trying to get some space to make sure your what he wants. He hasn't been separated long and not yet divorced. I think if I was in that situation I would be very cautious and move slow to make sure I was not making a mistake, plus he may be enjoying being a semi single man.Talk to him about the sex maybe he is unsure about the relationship and doesn't want to feel like his using you or thinking with the wrong head


I have been completely freaking exhausted from business trips. I love having sex right before I crash. If not then after I awake from that crash.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

WyshIknew said:


> Yes you're right. Never thought about it really.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't cultivate a friendship with a woman to have sex with her.
> 
> ...


Right. So we are talking about guys who actually invest serious personal time in "female friends". Men do not do that unless they are attracted to that woman. They may know she is married or whatever ... but you know what ... they are there for the woman if needed. Like during a spat with her hubby. If she came over, took a shower and came out naked not many of these guys would turn her down. So if a guy truly is not looking to nail her at some point he should not be cultivating a very close relationship like that.

Spending a lot of emotional energy and hanging out with these women is effectively dating them. The guy is just a friends until she discovers he is not. He is waiting for that one moment.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

jane1213 said:


> I partly disagree with this theory that every guy wants to sleep with his female friend. Well, yes , i was with this male friend once at a nightclub and we ended up hugging, touching..etc but now he insists that we are "just friends" even though he knows that I am head over heels for him. I am good looking and young. I am 25 and he is 31.
> 
> Yes, he is getting married now but he was getting married , too, that night . He didn't tell me then that he was getting married.


He would have banged you is he was not getting married. Just because he has morals ... to a point ... does not mean he did not want you. He took his cheating only so far. I mean WTH was he at a nightclub with you? 

Also realize that he may consider friends with benefits ... just friends. For some people it is "just sex".


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

homebuilder said:


> The 31y/o is a manager at a bar/restaurant he frequents (his "Cheers" bar) and befriended. The other he because friends with because she used to date a friend of his but now they are all in the same social group.
> I will say as a man I can talk more to a women about personal issues than with a guy and maybe thats what he is doing. I've had female friends in the past that I told things that I would have never told a guy.


Me too. That is called intimacy. That brings you very close to each other. That is a level of bonding. part of the mating ritual. It means there is enough oxytocin going on that you let down your guard. This leaves open the ability to bond further and begin the dopamine.

It si not that men are always in PUA mode. Most men just bond with women as "friends". But part of that involves the pathways and brain chemicals that form the attraction piece. A man can fall into an EA without intending to. This is not about intent. It is about chemistry and mating rituals that are part of who we are. It is ... natural.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

homebuilder said:


> I think most men have trouble talking to other men and that is probably silly butI'm just not comfortable talking to other guys
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is why I married and have sex with my wife. This is part of the whole ... sex thing. LOL. What you are describing is the bonding that goes on between men and women. Hello!!!

I would much rather be intimate with a woman. I do not discuss intimate things with men. Because I am a guy.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I don't think it's a "date" when it's TWO girls and him... he had these friends before his marriage ended and never cheated, had his chance after separating and the one was single at the same time - nothing.
> 
> He knows we are dating, he is my "boyfriend" and knows it and we are exclusive - I have asked outright before we slept together if he was dating anyone else. He's not a player - the farthest thing from it. He's not working all of the angles seeing who will let him in their pants. This guy HAS no game. Really.


One on one is defintiely a date. Would it be date if he ended the evening with both of them in bed?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

WyshIknew said:


> Quite a bit later all us guys decided to strip off and jump in the jacuzzi naked, the girls joined us but left their bikini bottoms on. This girl then came over and asked if she could sit with me as the other men in the jacuzzi were touching her up. Feeling all protective I said yes, but suggested that rather than sit on my lap she sit between my legs as that seemed better to me.
> As the evening wore on I realised that she had gradually moved back until she was squashed right back against me and was pressing her butt back into my penis which was responding. As soon as possible I jumped out for a beer returned and sat _next to her_.


This would absolutely be cheating in my marriage. Stripping naked and getting in the hot tub period would be wrong. Add to that a topless girl sitting between my legs. Then giving you a lapdance essentially naked ... 

If the roles were reveresed it would be a deal breaker for me. Seriously. No wonder you feel you can be friends with women. LOL. Wow. Talk about boundaries or lack there of. I NEVER use alcohol to excuse anything BTW.

So you got out of the hot tub with a raging erection and returned naked to the tub and sat next to the girl who was humping your hardon with her @$$. Sweet. So maybe it would have been ok to play a little just the tip. All in good fun.

Again if my wife did that it would be all over.


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## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> This is why I married and have sex with my wife. This is part of the whole ... sex thing. LOL. What you are describing is the bonding that goes on between men and women. Hello!!!
> 
> I would much rather be intimate with a woman. I do not discuss intimate things with men. Because I am a guy.


its more than that,I think as a young boy your reinforced to be manly and tough and talking and being sensitive with other men make you seem weak andunmanly and you don't want your guy friends looking at you that way.however ladies think a sensitive men is great.I didn't create the stereotype I'm just playing the game
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

On the other hand I don't share everything with my wife cause don't think it would be accepted well
_Posted via Mobile Device_ I also think everybody needs someone they can talk to about everything without fear of judgment


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

homebuilder said:


> its more than that,I think as a young boy your reinforced to be manly and tough and talking and being sensitive with other men make you seem weak andunmanly and you don't want your guy friends looking at you that way.however ladies think a sensitive men is great.I didn't create the stereotype I'm just playing the game
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For me it is about being attracted to feminity. Men seek to bond with women. I wish men these days were reinforced to be manly. We see less and less of this unfortunately. We see men being beaten up for being a man.

But anyway, it is natural for men to be intimate with women. These days it is trendy to insist that men and women are the same. That is why we see the insistence by some that having close opposite sex friends is ok. This would have to be true if men and women were the same.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

homebuilder said:


> On the other hand I don't share everything with my wife cause don't think it would be accepted well
> _Posted via Mobile Device_ I also think everybody needs someone they can talk to about everything without fear of judgment


I am monogamous with my wife. I do not have secrets from her I share with other women. Monogamy is way more than just where you put your penis.

That said, some guys like to take this tact to the PUA level and have for moe than a century. My wife does not understand me ... but we really click. It works well on the internet too. Especially with women who seek to prove having opposite sex friends is ok. A guy can work that whole angle. It is said that women will treat guys as friends until, they have relationship issues. So what better place to do this than a place that discusses marriage issues? YMMV


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## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

Your right everywhere you turn now a days boys are bring taught to not be men its sad really.I don't share those things with other women I just don't share with anybody
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

I would just like to point out something. I don't believe your bf is emotionally available. I know that when a relationship ended for me, I went right into another one immediately. I was not capable of giving him all of me because I was still in a lot of pain from the last relationship. It took me a year to start to feel like myself again. I didn't realize it, but I was wrong to have a relationship right away. I was selfish and I hurt someone really bad. I wasn't capable of loving him and I broke his heart. I believe this may be where your bf is. He is simply not emotionally availabe to give himself to you and by dating him too quickly, you may be decreasing the chances that he will want to have a future with you. You are both in different places. I am so sorry. I know you are feeling sad about his distance. I really hope it works out for you the way you want it to. I am like you too in that I hate dating. It is so emotionally draining and it takes a toll on your self esteem.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> This would absolutely be cheating in my marriage. Stripping naked and getting in the hot tub period would be wrong. Add to that a topless girl sitting between my legs. Then giving you a lapdance essentially naked ...
> 
> If the roles were reveresed it would be a deal breaker for me. Seriously. No wonder you feel you can be friends with women. LOL. Wow. Talk about boundaries or lack there of. I NEVER use alcohol to excuse anything BTW.
> 
> ...



Thanks, you've made me feel really sh!tty now

In my defence I've always been a bit 'innocent' about those sort of things. Heck I was a virgin until I met my wife in my late twenties. This girl did seem genuinely worried so I suggested she sit between my legs because that would offer the most protection for her, plus when the hot tub is full my wife sits on my lap.

As I also mentioned I must be twice her age, and not all that in the looks department. So I didn't think there would be any attraction at all. I thought she just latched on to me for protection as I was the reliable 'older guy'.
And I didn't have a 'raging erection' as I removed myself from the situation as soon as I became uncomfortable with the way it was developing.
Perhaps the first boundary was crossed when i jumped in naked but everbody else did it and I would have looked a right Nermal Numbnuts if I was the only one in bathers, and would probably been forcibly debagged anyway.

Interestingly I must have been feeling some of what you highlighted in your post because I brought it up with my wife last night. She feels that I handled it well. She knows I am one of lifes innocents, and in fact she had to seduce me originally.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Right. So we are talking about guys who actually invest serious personal time in "female friends". Men do not do that unless they are attracted to that woman.


What if they are both single (opposite sex friends)? Does he still want to nail her if he hangs out with her? 



Entropy3000 said:


> Monogamy is way more than just where you put your penis.


:rofl:



dixieangel said:


> I would just like to point out something. *I don't believe your bf is emotionally available*.


He's not available at all cause he's still MARRIED. And I agree with your entire post, by the way. It's spot on. This guy is nowhere near being ready for a relationship. 

He hasn't properly grieved the loss of his marriage/gone through the separation period in a normal way since he hopped right into dating another woman so soon.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> One on one is defintiely a date. Would it be date if he ended the evening with both of them in bed?


Not necessary - it can still be friends hanging out that took a turn to sex because of circumstances like alcohol, guard down, EA, etc.

But that would never happen and I know all of you will roll your eyes and say it always can, blah blah blah. I'm not ignorant that for most people this is true nor am I blind to the fact everyone has personal failings. But I know things about him you guys don't and I can't share here. BUT because of those things I know he takes sex VERY seriously, it's a big deal emotionally not just physically. 

I do wonder more of an EA and I might have spurred that on myself because he is working with a counselor regarding his failed marriage and I told him I didn't want to be his counselor but that she choose to cheat even if both people were at fault for the marriage failing. What I meant was, I didn't want him to view me in a non-romantic way. I AM willing, WANTING to be his confidant and his emotional support system without being a crutch. But that might have come across as "don't talk to me about that". 

I'm not going to address it before the Halloween party because if we end up cooling things off because it is rebound, he's not ready, etc., I don't want to be a sad drunk. I know if we break up tonight or tomorrow, I will be crying and will drink too much and I need to be a good hostess in control of her emotions and not overdo it. I want to have fun at my party - ignorance is bliss. At least until the next day. 

And I disagree that being close to a member of the opposite sex is ALWAYS an EA of sorts. Sometimes we need the perspective of the same sex as the person we're dealing with.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> He's not available at all cause he's still MARRIED. And I agree with your entire post, by the way. It's spot on. This guy is nowhere near being ready for a relationship.
> 
> He hasn't properly grieved the loss of his marriage/gone through the separation period in a normal way since he hopped right into dating another woman so soon.


I don't think he's not available because he is still technically married. I know you keep pointing that out. But if they had just lived together for that number of years including the cheating, the result is the same. The piece of paper doesn't make him more or less available. If he lived somewhere where divorces are granted in 30 days, he would have been divorced when I met him but that wouldn't make him more or less ready to enter into a new relationship. We are talking about EMOTIONAL AVAILABILITY, not the ability to commit to another marriage. He is absolutely not available to marry at the moment because his marriage has not been legally dissolved but the two don't have to be exclusive of one another.

He needed more time to get over it. I thought he was farther along in the healing process. Maybe he thought he was, too. It seemed to coincide with starting counseling. I can see now it's too soon. I still HOPE he can go through the process without having to end US. We'll see.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Enjoli, if you're feeling at all uncomfortable with these female friendships, then that is the point that it becomes a problem. There are plenty here (JB included as I recall from an old thread) who just aren't comfortable with things like that. Don't hang on trying to be cool with it if this is really bothering you.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I don't think he's not available because he is still technically married. I know you keep pointing that out. *We are talking about EMOTIONAL AVAILABILITY*, not the ability to commit to another marriage.


Ok. But the fact still remains that he is not EMOTIONALLY AVAILABLE. Because based on your own statements: after seven months of dating, he hasn't introduced you to any of his friends/family as a girlfriend, he isn't "ready" to introduce you to his world, he hangs out with other chicks to the point it has got you feeling weird, he is not present about the sex, and you feel him pulling away from you.

All of this to me translates to: Not emotionally available to date.

And then well, I won't say it again (ok I will), he's married.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

LOL *sigh* I love you JB. Your honest, straight-forward, hand-it-to-me-to-hold attitude.

I see "married" as being the least of the roadblocks, really. I don't want to marry him next month or even next year. I don't feel guilty for dating a "married" man. I would never date a married man still living with his wife and checked out his story thoroughly to make sure he wasn't living at home before we met for drinks. He is not legally bound to her in my state because he is separated. The only single activity he can't participate in is marry.

Semantics aside, I agree. I don't like it, but I agree. Where to now? I'm not breaking it off yet. I DO want to have a heart felt conversation with him and hope it can be this weekend. It's so hard when our schedules and my daughter make it hard so I will try to grab my opportunity Sunday. Or MAYBE after the party as I clean up if he hangs around we can talk. 

I'm already disappointed that he knows I have no child this weekend and he has made no plans to be with me tonight - just coming to party tomorrow. I'm not going to ask him to stay the night. He'll either plan to on his own or not.

I hate dating. I just want Mr. Right or no mister at all. It's the in between stuff I find difficult.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> I have a love/hate relationship with this topic...I love talking about it and all the differnt variations of 'friendship' that are involved. But I hate it because it touches a raw nerve for me. Too much past experience with men and their female friends (who really never were friends, they all seemed to be phuck-buddies, exes of some sort, or that wild girl they once had a threesome with).


I think that's where I am as well. I really wanted to believe that men and women could be friends. But guys who I thought were friends would one day at some point accuse me of being a user because they wanted to date me and I wanted to be just friends. Never mind that they agreed me at some point that we were just friends.

And now that I have married and divorced, I know the problems that can arise when women get too chummy with your husband, even when sex is not involved and you're willing to be friends with the woman who wants to be friends with your husband.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> LOL *sigh* I love you JB. Your honest, straight-forward, hand-it-to-me-to-hold attitude..


 I promise I mean well! The thing is, you're not happy with the status quo so... 



EnjoliWoman said:


> I hate dating. I just want Mr. Right or no mister at all. It's the in between stuff I find difficult.


BUT...if you know this guy isn't Mr. Right, then cut him loose! Don't waste another 7 months of your life! As long as you're with Mr. Wrong, you will NEVER find Mr. Right.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Right. So we are talking about guys who actually invest serious personal time in "female friends". Men do not do that unless they are attracted to that woman. *They may know she is married or whatever ... but you know what ... they are there for the woman if needed. Like during a spat with her hubby.* If she came over, took a shower and came out naked not many of these guys would turn her down. So if a guy truly is not looking to nail her at some point he should not be cultivating a very close relationship like that.
> 
> Spending a lot of emotional energy and hanging out with these women is effectively dating them. The guy is just a friends until she discovers he is not. He is waiting for that one moment.


This is why some guys don't want to date women who have friendships with men. Even if there were a legit argument and cooling off period needed, no guy wants to wonder whether she's getting with her male friends for support and then what........


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> I promise I mean well! The thing is, you're not happy with the status quo so...
> 
> 
> 
> BUT...if you know this guy isn't Mr. Right, then cut him loose! Don't waste another 7 months of your life! As long as you're with Mr. Wrong, you will NEVER find Mr. Right.


I'm not happy with the status quo. But I feel he IS my Mr. Right. I respect him, admire him, find him smart and funny and sexy and love being with him. I think about him all of the time and can't wait to see him when we are apart. 

I just know that right now it doesn't seem to be reciprocated. I'm struggling with how long to wait and what to say. I'd love it if he came out the other end of this relationship recovery period and felt the same. I don't want to be the doormat that waits forever. The sooner I break if off, the easier to recover. But then I think "what if". What if he will or does feel the same way but is being a bit reserved until his life is less 'messy'? I feel I owe it to both of us to have that conversation.

Initially he was the pursuer and I was holding off because of how freshly separated he was and he persisted. Gradually he won me over. He hit a period of depression dealing with the logistics of divorce and property settlement and I suggested he see a counselor. Then he became more distant... introspective. Guarded. 

I overheard him talking to his Mom when I got out of the shower after staying. He was so chatty. I joked with a smile (but was serious) that that was the most I'd heard him say in one conversation ever! He smiled and rolled his eyes and replied "oh brother". I wanted that to be me on the other end of the phone.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> But I feel he IS my Mr. Right.


Enjoli, I would never think someone's Mr. Right is the same man who won't introduce them to his friends/family after dating for SEVEN months.  I can tell you like him but it sounds like he's not on the same page as you. His actions are speaking loud and clear. 

I can tell you this: if you do the same thing, you can expect the same results.

So speak up on your dissatisfaction and let the chips fall where they may.

The sooner, the better.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I get your point - he feels right for me, that doesn't mean I'm right for him.

I will let you know what happens after this weekend.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Hope it all goes well this weekend.

Can't speak for your guy as I came from a different situation when I met the woman of my dreams. I was single he has come from what sounds like a nasty divorce after a crappy marriage.

When I met my wife I wanted to be with her night and day, I must have been a real pain, I was like a leech. But I was coming from a situation where I was desperate for affection.

However had I just come from a relationship with a heartless ***** who knows how I would feel?


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

So. He came to my party and finally was the last guy there along w/ me and 3 women. The other women started talking about child birth and he decided to go. I had hoped we'd have time to talk after the party. As we were saying goodbye, a common friend of mine and other woman was also having a party and we decided to continue at her house. I wanted him to know I had options. I had a good time but had a hard time not thinking about him. Today he had church, plans (sideline business) and meetings tonight so again, no time to talk about this.

Happily married friend who was there (hubby had to leave early/work related) says he makes a beeline to greet/hug/kiss me when he came in the door. Her feeling is that he is stressed dealing with the divorce and selling their house and that I should just let him know I care but not be pushy and keep the status quo until the first of the year and she thinks his life will be less messy then and that he'll let me "in" then.

Single friend who has not met him has the same opinion as most of you guys.

I'm somewhere in the middle and I think I need to tell him how I'm feeling (left out) and ask what's going on in his head. I think it's worth a conversation - just never know when we'll actually have one. Cell service at his house sucks (I know, I can't even send a text sometimes from there) so we never even get to talk over the phone even though he lives 10 minutes away so having a face-to-face conversation without my daughter around is rare and difficult. Next weekend w/o her he's going out of town to stay with one of his best buddies and go to a college game so unless I can get an evening, lunch, something... it's going to be another damn month.j

He does come mid-week a lot to have dinner and hang out w/ me and my daughter. Maybe when she's in her room doing homework or walk him out to his car I can squeeze in a quick conversation.


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## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

Hang in there sucks being in limbo
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

So I sent a playful message Sunday to feel him out. No answer. I knew he had meetings, etc. so I finally got right to it and sent this:

"I know you have X activities and I don't know when I'll hear from you but I feel liek you're dealing with some internal struggle and I feel a bit on the outside. I didn't have my daughter all weekend and tried to find some alone time with you but you didn't seem equally inclined. This isn't a conversation for text but I have no idea when we can talk."

He wrote back this morning "I know we need to talk. Yesterday was nuts and I didn't get home until 11:15pm. This week is hectic as well."

Well, I decided knowing is better than protocol plus I'd rather not bawl in front of him as he breaks up (assuming he will) so I wrote an email vs. a text.


"Although email is generally not acceptable for relationship discussions, waiting in limbo until some future point in time that we will actually see each other is even harder.

So I'm caught between wondering "is he just not into me?" per the famous book/movie OR thinking you're just dealing with distractions surrounding the dissolution of your marriage and need to take it down a notch.

Although I tend to want to hear/know the "whys" they really aren't beneficial when what I really need to know is if you want to keep seeing each other or not. If you don't, I wish we'd talked last Friday because I feel pretty stupid now after thinking sometimes the girl has to make the first move. If you do want to keep dating but are just dealing with some things that are taking their toll emotionally, then I need you to open up a bit about what you are feeling and need right now. When I said I didn't want to be your counselor, I didn't mean I didn't want you to be open with me - I just didn't want to 'save' you - you have to save yourself and then be ready for love."

So I think Enjoli is probably back on the market.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

EW - personally, I think you're making too many excuses for this guy. If he really wanted / was ready for love again, believe me, he'd let you know.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> EW - personally, I think you're making too many excuses for this guy. If he really wanted / was ready for love again, believe me, he'd let you know.


He said he was and I think he THOUGHT he was... and I believed him. But the more he got into the business of divorce and into IC, I think the more he realized he wasn't as over it as he thought.

I'm 95% sure it's over. Just waiting for his reply. 

And the reason that this is so hard is it's the first time I've ever been in love. I was in awe of my husband and the first serious boyfriend post-divorce was comforting and I almost settled. And I was almost sure something was wrong with me for being incapable of love, thinking I had no depth of feeling til now.

Now it just sucks to be crying at work off and on all day. I'm glad it's gym night tonight. I need the exertion and distraction.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> He said he was and I think he THOUGHT he was... and I believed him. But the more he got into the business of divorce and into IC, I think the more he realized he wasn't as over it as he thought.
> 
> I'm 95% sure it's over. Just waiting for his reply.
> 
> ...


Ohhh....I am so sorry to hear this....and I sympathize with the crying at work all day and such. Been there myself, and it's no picnic! I wish you the best....xoxo.


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## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

I wouldnt worry about the female friends, thats very normal and if you continue to see him you will need to get used to it, DO NOT think you can change him, thats not how it works. The issue appears to be the jealousy that is in you, not him having female friends. For him to go to a public place with a female friend, like a bar or sporting even and to come home after is perfectly fine. if, however, he goes to the bar with a female friend, doesnt respond to texts or calls and you can get ahold of him till the next morning where you find him in the same clothes with lipstick smeared on him, now you have a issue!


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## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

EW
its darkest right before dawn You never know whats around the corner


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