# Ratio of Sex to Masturbation



## moco82

Question for the ladies with lower drives than their husbands.

1. You know your husband achieves more orgasms on his own (usually with porn) than with you (about 80-90%).
2. You know he does not cheat.
3. He does not hide his masturbation or porn viewing.
4. He never refuses you intimacy when you initiate sex.
5. He doesn't harbour ill will and prefers masturbation to pressuring you into undesired sex.
6. You're in a mature relationship of mutual respect, where you know not everything can be perfect, you both work and divide child care and house chores evenly. You're both also very tired most of the time and kids don't leave many hours per week when you're alone and functional at the same time.

Is this configuration ideal for the eternally-discussed low-drive/high-drive cohabitation, or would you quietly be bothered by the ratio?


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## moco82

People are shy or distracted by elections in the US/pandemic/Ethiopia civil war...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

What?


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## DownByTheRiver

moco82 said:


> Question for the ladies with lower drives than their husbands.
> 
> 1. You know your husband achieves more orgasms on his own (usually with porn) than with you (about 80-90%).
> 2. You know he does not cheat.
> 3. He does not hide his masturbation or porn viewing.
> 4. He never refuses you intimacy when you initiate sex.
> 5. He doesn't harbour ill will and prefers masturbation to pressuring you into undesired sex.
> 6. You're in a mature relationship of mutual respect, where you know not everything can be perfect, you both work and divide child care and house chores evenly. You're both also very tired most of the time and kids don't leave many hours per week when you're alone and functional at the same time.
> 
> Is this configuration ideal for the eternally-discussed low-drive/high-drive cohabitation, or would you quietly be bothered by the ratio?


I don't see why it would bother her. You're handling your difference in drives like an adult should, though many would object to using porn for many legit reasons, but it's better than cheating. You're still available to her. She probably values affection and attention at least as much as sex, like many women, so as long as you're not using sex only as the scoreboard and also have a loving affection with her in other ways, seems okay to me, and I guess she'll holler if it isn't.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

DownByTheRiver said:


> I don't see why it would bother her. You're handling your difference in drives like an adult should, though many would object to using porn for many legit reasons, but it's better than cheating. You're still available to her. She probably values affection and attention at least as much as sex, like many women, so as long as you're not using sex only as the scoreboard and also have a loving affection with her in other ways, seems okay to me, and I guess she'll holler if it isn't.


@DownByTheRiver 
You got it in one!


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## Girl_power

It’s hard to put myself in a hypothetical situation that doesn’t apply to me. 
I like sex. The thought of my partner watching porn and masterbating bothers me, I’m sure he does it, I don’t want to think about it. If it becomes a problem, then I would be pissed off. 

Imo that stuff should be private. Like I’m sure my boyfriend does it, but that doesn’t mean it’s ok for me to walk in the bedroom and witness it. It’s not ok for him to turn me down and then go off and masterbate. 

I think it’s a respect issue. Like when your not even trying to hid it... that would bother me. Like I’m not even in the same house or something.


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## LisaDiane

I'm not really sure what you are asking, and I cannot relate to your hypothetical situation at all - WHY would you need to get off 80-90% of the time to porn if you both welcomed sex from eachother...? Are you CHOOSING your hand and porn over making any effort with your partner...?

I had NO problem when my husband wanted to do this...AT FIRST...because he rationalized that of course he would always make himself available to ME, and I believed him. He might have even meant it at first. And I didn't want to deny him anything sexual that would excite him. 

But that's NOT what happened. It was the first step in completely cutting me out of his sexual experiences. And it didn't take long, either. Once you start excluding eachother from your sexual expression, it can become a slippery slope.
If you really want to masturbate to porn, I would say have your wife be part of it somehow. She might think it's exciting too (I would!)

I think regularly seeking sexual pleasure without your partner is damaging to your emotional and sexual bond and even your future satisfaction with your sex life for both of you. 

Partnered sex is precious...TAKE CARE of it...PROTECT it.


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## Married_in_michigan

I can kind of see where you are going and what you are asking. I have gone through times where i had no interest in rejection, so did not hide that I would watch porn and masturbate. It was never 80-90%, but i am not a fan of repeated rejection, so can see where you are going with this


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## moco82

Girl_power said:


> It’s not ok for him to turn me down and then go off and masterbate.
> Like when your not even trying to hid it... that would bother me. Like I’m not even in the same house or something.


Clarifications: 1. You're never turned down when you initiate; 2. The masturbation is never in plain sight or even likely to be stumbled upon.


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## moco82

LisaDiane said:


> WHY would you need to get off 80-90% of the time to porn if you both welcomed sex from eachother...?


Not an active choice. The difference in drive is wide. There are precious evenings, far and few between, when the wife in question wants nothing other than to read a book.



> I had NO problem when my husband wanted to do this...AT FIRST...because he rationalized that of course he would always make himself available to ME, and I believed him. He might have even meant it at first. And I didn't want to deny him anything sexual that would excite him.


Sounds like you guys had comparable drives? I.e., if your husband tried to initiate every time he wanted release, it would not have become irritating.


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## Girl_power

moco82 said:


> Clarifications: 1. You're never turned down when you initiate; 2. The masturbation is never in plain sight or even likely to be stumbled upon.


Why wouldn’t it be stumbles upon? 

Why can’t men just masterbate in the shower and call it a day. I have a problem with heavy porn use, or even needing porn to masterbate with. I’m totally fine with my partner masterbating, but watching porn.


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## Casual Observer

LisaDiane said:


> I'm not really sure what you are asking, and I cannot relate to your hypothetical situation at all - WHY would you need to get off 80-90% of the time to porn if you both welcomed sex from eachother...? Are you CHOOSING your hand and porn over making any effort with your partner...?
> 
> I had NO problem when my husband wanted to do this...AT FIRST...because he rationalized that of course he would always make himself available to ME, and I believed him. He might have even meant it at first. And I didn't want to deny him anything sexual that would excite him.
> 
> But that's NOT what happened. It was the first step in completely cutting me out of his sexual experiences. And it didn't take long, either. Once you start excluding eachother from your sexual expression, it can become a slippery slope.
> If you really want to masturbate to porn, I would say have your wife be part of it somehow. She might think it's exciting too (I would!)
> 
> I think regularly seeking sexual pleasure without your partner is damaging to your emotional and sexual bond and even your future satisfaction with your sex life for both of you.
> 
> Partnered sex is precious...TAKE CARE of it...PROTECT it.


Can I like this twice, or more? I'm saddened that your husband became more involved with porn than you; it's hard for me to imagine a scenario in which I would prefer porn to my wife. My porn use was a substitute and something I resented feeling served a need. And it didn't lead to release, just frustration. I gave it up cold turkey the day everything hit the fan w/regards the creative fiction in which we were married. It (porn) holds no power over me; the desire to watch it gradually built as days without intimacy increased. But I realized, when it all hit the fan, that porn was a way of not dealing with the real issues. I think my wife would probably have been happier had I continued with porn.  But we probably wouldn't still be married.

I agree completely about shared sexual experiences, although for my LD wife, if she began to re-establish her sexual self on her own, I'd be ok believing that was part of her journey back. I'd give her some room, but I would want to be a part of it as it continued. The idea of myself or her leading a secret sexual life seems really wrong to me, but much of this may be reactive to the fact that that's exactly what she had done way back when. 

So... I'm not 100% anti-porn, but I am 100% pro the message you posted. I don't recall how things have played out for you, but hopefully for the best.


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## moco82

Girl_power said:


> Why wouldn’t it be stumbles upon?


It’s not that hard to organize discretely. You definitely don’t want kids walking in.



> Why can’t men just masterbate in the shower and call it a day. I have a problem with heavy porn use, or even needing porn to masterbate with. I’m totally fine with my partner masterbating, but watching porn.


The shower just isn’t that relaxing for the process. Much better laying down or sitting, plus using lotion. It’s a borderline meditative experience, really, switching off the worrying parts of the brain for a short time. Then, you can share links with your wife and/or queue up videos to watch together on a day you logistically can.


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## moco82

Casual Observer said:


> My porn use was a substitute and something I resented feeling served a need.


I’ve dated HD women in the past and would go weeks or months without porn or masturbation. Hard to say if that bliss would have gone on had those relationships turned into marriage, but I suspect that for most men porn is just a means to an end.


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## bobert

Girl_power said:


> Why wouldn’t it be stumbles upon?
> 
> Why can’t men just masterbate in the shower and call it a day. I have a problem with heavy porn use, or even needing porn to masterbate with. I’m totally fine with my partner masterbating, but watching porn.


Why can't women just masturbate in the shower, while standing up and without toys? If women are allowed to relax and use "aids", why are men stuck jerking off in the shower? 

I've never done it in the shower and never would. My wife has asked me many times if I do because she has never walked in on me and wonders when I do it. It's easier to hide than you think.


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## LisaDiane

Casual Observer said:


> Can I like this twice, or more? I'm saddened that your husband became more involved with porn than you; it's hard for me to imagine a scenario in which I would prefer porn to my wife. My porn use was a substitute and something I resented feeling served a need. And it didn't lead to release, just frustration. I gave it up cold turkey the day everything hit the fan w/regards the creative fiction in which we were married. It (porn) holds no power over me; the desire to watch it gradually built as days without intimacy increased. But I realized, when it all hit the fan, that porn was a way of not dealing with the real issues. I think my wife would probably have been happier had I continued with porn.  But we probably wouldn't still be married.
> 
> I agree completely about shared sexual experiences, although for my LD wife, if she began to re-establish her sexual self on her own, I'd be ok believing that was part of her journey back. I'd give her some room, but I would want to be a part of it as it continued. The idea of myself or her leading a secret sexual life seems really wrong to me, but much of this may be reactive to the fact that that's exactly what she had done way back when.
> 
> So... I'm not 100% anti-porn, but I am 100% pro the message you posted. I don't recall how things have played out for you, but hopefully for the best.


Thank you for this!!! I didn't really write fully about my situation on here, nor the outcome, but it's definitely the best and inevitable outcome when two people no longer connect sexually, or one partner doesn't care about the other sexually.

I am not anti-porn at all - I'm not really "anti" anything, that I can think of - especially if it fills a need for a person or couple. But the potential consequences of using it need to be recognized honestly, and it should be chosen with care about what could happen.

I agree SO much with you that a secret sexual life isn't positive for any relationship - and actually, I don't think there is much that should be hidden in a committed relationship. I just want openness, honesty, and understanding!!!


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## Girl_power

bobert said:


> Why can't women just masturbate in the shower, while standing up and without toys? If women are allowed to relax and use "aids", why are men stuck jerking off in the shower?
> 
> I've never done it in the shower and never would. My wife has asked me many times if I do because she has never walked in on me and wonders when I do it. It's easier to hide than you think.


I can’t orgasm standing up. And I only masterbate with my hand thank you.


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## Girl_power

bobert said:


> Why can't women just masturbate in the shower, while standing up and without toys? If women are allowed to relax and use "aids", why are men stuck jerking off in the shower?
> 
> I've never done it in the shower and never would. My wife has asked me many times if I do because she has never walked in on me and wonders when I do it. It's easier to hide than you think.


There are two types of porn users IMO... ones that use it strictly to get off, like they quickly find a good video and 10mins later they are done. Then I have met people who watch porn for hours!! Like hours to me is insane, and that goes beyond just trying to get off... that is a whole different issue. Like it’s entertainment, like watching a movie.


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## bobert

Girl_power said:


> *I can’t orgasm standing up.* And I only masterbate with my hand thank you.


Exactly. So you shouldn't expect a man to do it either


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## Girl_power

This is my observation..: women masterbate and watch porn when they are horny. Men often times watch porn BECAUSE they want to masterbate, and they need something to get them in the mood. This is why it’s dangerous because they need someTHING external to get them horny. So with an aging wife, or with a wife that has gained weight, or have a bad post pregnancy body etc... it may not be easy for some men to get aroused because they condition themselves to be horny with only very sexy stimulus.


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## Girl_power

bobert said:


> Exactly. So you shouldn't expect a man to do it either


I’ve never met one that hasn’t to be honest.


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## bobert

Girl_power said:


> I’ve never met one that hasn’t to be honest.


I would assume that is a pretty small sample size, unless you go around asking men where they jerk off! 

I've never masturbated while standing up. I also have zero interest in getting a bj while standing up. So... we're out there and now you've "met" one.


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## bobert

Girl_power said:


> Men often times watch porn BECAUSE they want to masterbate, and they need something to get them in the mood.


Obviously I can only speak for myself, but this isn't true for me. I get in the mood first, then decide to look at porn. And yes, I can get off without porn but it's a heck of a lot easier with it.


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## Girl_power

bobert said:


> I would assume that is a pretty small sample size, unless you go around asking men where they jerk off!
> 
> I've never masturbated while standing up. I also have zero interest in getting a bj while standing up. So... we're out there and now you've "met" one.


What about shower sex? Or having sex with your wife on the bed/table/chair and you do her standing on the ground. Come on Bobert!


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## Girl_power

bobert said:


> Obviously I can only speak for myself, but this isn't true for me. I get in the mood first, then decide to look at porn. And yes, I can get off without porn but it's a heck of a lot easier with it.


That’s good! I think you would be surprised by the amount of men who can’t masterbate without porn. It’s a problem.


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## Bluesclues

moco82 said:


> Clarifications: 1. You're never turned down when you initiate; 2. The masturbation is never in plain sight or even likely to be stumbled upon.


I am unclear on this -do you ever initiate?


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## bobert

Girl_power said:


> What about shower sex? Or having sex with your wife on the bed/table/chair and you do her standing on the ground. Come on Bobert!


Sex is different, which is why I only mentioned masturbation and oral


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## moco82

Bluesclues said:


> I am unclear on this -do you ever initiate?


Yes, trying to back into her perceived preferred frequency.


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## moco82

Girl_power said:


> What about shower sex? Or having sex with your wife on the bed/table/chair and you do her standing on the ground. Come on Bobert!


There it is, nailed it. Perhaps porn addicts are fine masturbating to porn in the shower, but when masturbation is a means to an end, the added difficulty is discouraging.


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## Impulse

Girl_power said:


> This is my observation..: women masterbate and watch porn when they are horny. Men often times watch porn BECAUSE they want to masterbate, and they need something to get them in the mood. This is why it’s dangerous because they need someTHING external to get them horny. So with an aging wife, or with a wife that has gained weight, or have a bad post pregnancy body etc... it may not be easy for some men to get aroused because they condition themselves to be horny with only very sexy stimulus.


So what is the advice? Avoid any sexy stimulus and become desperate for anything that moves (or wobbles) around the house? Isn’t it a bit like in order to learn to appreciate wife’s ****ty cooking, you should go and starve for 40 days in the desert? Isn’t it better to instead...I dunno...take some cooking classes or cook some food yourself that doesn’t make you vomit?
—-
I am joking. I think anything in excess is bad, m’kay...even cooking classes.


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## moco82

Girl_power said:


> This is my observation..: women masterbate and watch porn when they are horny. Men often times watch porn BECAUSE they want to masterbate,


Because there is a physical need building up. Without release, irritability follows. If you're not happy about needing to resort to masturbation just to stave off physical and psychological discomfort, you need an aide to get it over with.


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## Impulse

Girl_power said:


> There are two types of porn users IMO... ones that use it strictly to get off, like they quickly find a good video and 10mins later they are done. Then I have met people who watch porn for hours!! Like hours to me is insane, and that goes beyond just trying to get off... that is a whole different issue. Like it’s entertainment, like watching a movie.


I am not sure that’s the reason. It’s not like there is some kind of twist at the end of each season where you have to keep watching...it’s probably more to do with the fact that some guys are very picky what it is they...make love to their hand to. Sometimes it takes them more effort and hours to find the right porn, than to find the right wife  
It is what it is, this is.


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## Impulse

moco82 said:


> Question for the ladies with lower drives than their husbands.
> 
> 1. You know your husband achieves more orgasms on his own (usually with porn) than with you (about 80-90%).
> 2. You know he does not cheat.
> 3. He does not hide his masturbation or porn viewing.
> 4. He never refuses you intimacy when you initiate sex.
> 5. He doesn't harbour ill will and prefers masturbation to pressuring you into undesired sex.
> 6. You're in a mature relationship of mutual respect, where you know not everything can be perfect, you both work and divide child care and house chores evenly. You're both also very tired most of the time and kids don't leave many hours per week when you're alone and functional at the same time.
> 
> Is this configuration ideal for the eternally-discussed low-drive/high-drive cohabitation, or would you quietly be bothered by the ratio?


Sorry, I lost you at no6. I wouldn’t necessarily mention ‘masturbation to porn’ and ‘mutual respect’ in the same post to be fair. Respect is already so difficult to earn in a marriage... It’s practically impossible while your partner also knows that you are jerking off to Ass Ventura and Whorey Potter: The Sorcerer’s Balls.


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## Girl_power

moco82 said:


> Because there is a physical need building up. Without release, irritability follows. If you're not happy about needing to resort to masturbation just to stave off physical and psychological discomfort, you need an aide to get it over with.


I get it. I think masterbation is healthy. Men should ejaculate 5x a week to prevent colon cancer. 
You shouldn’t need an aid. Honestly. You should be able to think Of something sexy and be able to masterbate. If you can’t, then you have been Desensitized, and more porn is NOT the answer. 


There is a movement going on, I think in the red pill society that people are giving up porn. There are a lot of positive things that happen when you do so.


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## Girl_power

Is Internet Pornography Causing Sexual Dysfunctions? A Review with Clinical Reports


Traditional factors that once explained men’s sexual difficulties appear insufficient to account for the sharp rise in erectile dysfunction, delayed ejaculation, decreased sexual satisfaction, and diminished libido during partnered sex in men ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## Girl_power

I Gave Up Porn Cold Turkey, and It Was the Best Thing I Ever Did


If you watch porn, or love someone who does, READ THIS... NOW.




www.thrillist.com














This is what happens when you give up porn


“My life is no longer about me, but about what I can do to improve wherever I am”




www.independent.co.uk














5 reasons why men need to give up porn


It’s not just hurting us. It’s hurting women.




www.dailydot.com


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## Girl_power

Impulse said:


> So what is the advice? Avoid any sexy stimulus and become desperate for anything that moves (or wobbles) around the house? Isn’t it a bit like in order to learn to appreciate wife’s ****ty cooking, you should go and starve for 40 days in the desert? Isn’t it better to instead...I dunno...take some cooking classes or cook some food yourself that doesn’t make you vomit?
> —-
> I am joking. I think anything in excess is bad, m’kay...even cooking classes.


The solution is to masterbate without porn. It’s not that hard. Use your imagination, remember that?


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## Impulse

Girl_power said:


> The solution is to masterbate without porn. It’s not that hard. Use your imagination, remember that?


Easy for a girl to say! 
It’s like saying to a guy ‘just multitask’ or ‘just nag a bit’. There are things men are just not as good at! You didn’t know we don’t have much of an imagination when it comes to t&a? (tits&ass)


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## Girl_power

Impulse said:


> Easy for a girl to say!
> It’s like saying to a guy ‘just multitask’ or ‘just nag a bit’. There are things men are just not as good at! You didn’t know we don’t have much of an imagination when it comes to t&a? (tits&ass)


Because you never had to try. 

It’s like kids who are given toys that are battery operative and talk and move are worse for development than plain crappy wooden toys. Wooden toys make the kid have an imagination and that never gets old. The other toys the kids get sick up and need the newer and better version of.


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## Impulse

Girl_power said:


> Because you never had to try.
> 
> It’s like kids who are given toys that are battery operative and talk and move are worse for development than plain crappy wooden toys. Wooden toys make the kid have an imagination and that never gets old. The other toys the kids get sick up and need the newer and better version of.


Isn’t it more like giving your kid an empty Lego box and asking them to imagine playing with it?
To be fair, the best thing would be to just play with your kid yourself, as a parent. But many can’t be arsed or don’t have time.


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## LisaDiane

Girl_power said:


> The solution is to masterbate without porn. It’s not that hard. Use your imagination, remember that?


While this might be great in theory, I just don't think it's realistic, especially for men who are sexually frustrated. If a guy has a partner that he's satisfied with and feels excited about (and who enjoys flirting/teasing/touching him when they aren't having sex), then he's more likely to be able to draw on his imagination for the imagery he needs to masturbate. Probably not so much if he's alone or frustrated or bored sexually but still needs a release. Men are SO visual...I don't know if women can even begin to understand how it affects them, because it's biological, it's not a choice for them.


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## LisaDiane

Girl_power said:


> I think that’s awesome. Too bad most men don’t ejaculate a large quantity of it to be affective.


Maybe that means it's healthier for BOTH partners if the guy ejaculates several times a day then...?? Lolol!!!!!


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## Girl_power

Impulse said:


> Isn’t it more like giving your kid an empty Lego box and asking them to imagine playing with it?
> To be fair, the best thing would be to just play with your kid yourself, as a parent. But many can’t be arsed or don’t have time.


I disagree. I think needs need to learn how to play by themselves and not need to be entertained 24/7. There is a balance, time to play with your parents, and time to keep yourself occupied. 
Kids need to learn the world doesn’t revolve around them.


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## Livvie

LisaDiane said:


> While this might be great in theory, I just don't think it's realistic, especially for men who are sexually frustrated. If a guy has a partner that he's satisfied with and feels excited about (and who enjoys flirting/teasing/touching him when they aren't having sex), then he's more likely to be able to draw on his imagination for the imagery he needs to masturbate. Probably not so much if he's alone or frustrated or bored sexually but still needs a release. Men are SO visual...I don't know if women can even begin to understand how it affects them, because it's biological, it's not a choice for them.


Really? So are you saying that poor men had such a difficult, difficult, time masturbating in the thousands of years before the advent of photography/film/technology?


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## Impulse

Girl_power said:


> I disagree. I think needs need to learn how to play by themselves and not need to be entertained 24/7. There is a balance, time to play with your parents, and time to keep yourself occupied.
> Kids need to learn the world doesn’t revolve around them.


Of course there is a balance. Nobody is asking parents to play with the kid 24/7. (And even the most horniest of husbands wouldn’t expect a wife to play with his **** 24/7. Somehow I’m not entirely comfortable juxtaposing those two scenarios next to each other..but there we go).

If the parents played with their kid once every 6 months (which is roughly the frequency of unhappy marriages at a guess) and expected them to IMAGINE playing with Lego for the rest of the time, would you not report them to child services?


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## Impulse

Livvie said:


> Really? So are you saying that poor men had such a difficult, difficult, time masturbating in the thousands of years before the advent of photography/film/technology?


I am just going to leave this gently over here and quietly shut the door...

“Cave Painting Porn Discovered”









Cave Painting Porn Discovered


The New York Times reports on the publication of an archeological article outlining the discovery of 37,000-year-old cave drawings that show our earliest ancestors had a taste for pornography: The …




www.artmarketmonitor.com


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## LisaDiane

Livvie said:


> Really? So are you saying that poor men had such a difficult, difficult, time masturbating in the thousands of years before the advent of photography/film/technology?


No, not at all! I wasn't even saying it would be "difficult, difficult" for a man now...but porn in some form or another has been around for hundreds of years or more! There have always been ways to DRAW sexual things, and live sex shows for thousands of years! Also, I believe men's sexual expression had more outlets in the past that women nowadays don't feel as though they have to indulge and/or are considered sexist. Not too long ago, there was no such thing as a husband raping his wife, according to the law...and in just one generation back from mine, men "coercing" women into having sex with them was considered normal, even healthy sexual relating between a couple.

So it's really hard to determine how men satisfied their sexual urges thousands of years ago and compare that to now...and I wasn't trying to do that. I was simply saying, CURRENTLY, in the society we are in NOW, it's not as easy and realistic to expect pure imagination to be enough and satisfying for a typical man in the situation I described.

And of course, that's only MY opinion...I could be completely wrong! 

I'm NOT defending compulsive porn use at all!! My husband's porn use ended my sex life! But, to ME, it wasn't the porn...it was THE MAN -- HE had a problem, and porn was only the method he used to shut me out. If there was no porn for him, he would have shut me out some other way.


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## moco82

@Girl_power , so, in summary, going back to the first post: it your natural drive is to have sex once a week, you're fine if your husband masturbates (as long as it's without visual stimulation) the other six days a week?

P.S. Are explicit images of you yourself permissible?


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## Girl_power

moco82 said:


> @Girl_power , so, in summary, going back to the first post: it your natural drive is to have sex once a week, you're fine if your husband masturbates (as long as it's without visual stimulation) the other six days a week?
> 
> P.S. Are explicit images of you yourself permissible?


I’m totally fine with my partner masterbating. I think how often you want to orgasm is specific to each person. I think Having an orgasm is healthy and good for you. 

I would be cautious about images/videos of myself. I’ve done it in the past and it’s been fine. But some people of given an inch take a mile... and then they need more pics and sexier poses etc. it will never just be enough.


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## Girl_power

LisaDiane said:


> No, not at all! I wasn't even saying it would be "difficult, difficult" for a man now...but porn in some form or another has been around for hundreds of years or more! There have always been ways to DRAW sexual things, and live sex shows for thousands of years! Also, I believe men's sexual expression had more outlets in the past that women nowadays don't feel as though they have to indulge and/or are considered sexist. Not too long ago, there was no such thing as a husband raping his wife, according to the law...and in just one generation back from mine, men "coercing" women into having sex with them was considered normal, even healthy sexual relating between a couple.
> 
> So it's really hard to determine how men satisfied their sexual urges thousands of years ago and compare that to now...and I wasn't trying to do that. I was simply saying, CURRENTLY, in the society we are in NOW, it's not as easy and realistic to expect pure imagination to be enough and satisfying for a typical man in the situation I described.
> 
> And of course, that's only MY opinion...I could be completely wrong!
> 
> I'm NOT defending compulsive porn use at all!! My husband's porn use ended my sex life! But, to ME, it wasn't the porn...it was THE MAN -- HE had a problem, and porn was only the method he used to shut me out. If there was no porn for him, he would have shut me out some other way.


My generation is having less sex than our parents and grandparents when they were our age. Younger men are now having ED, even in their early 30s. Men today’s testosterone levels are lower. 

Porn is one of the reasons. Men now have porn, masterbating tools that are shaped like Vaginas, and even have sex dolls. Sex with a real women is too much work, stressful, and disappointing because they aren’t comfortable with not being good at please women out of the gate. And their egos can’t handle the learning process. Instead it’s easier to watch porn and masterbate and live in this fantasy world where a smoking hot 20 year old is dying to get banged by you.


----------



## PieceOfSky

I find it both frustrating and strange someone here claims to know what is better for any other person — to masturbate with or without porn, with or without toys, standing vs laying down, in a shower vs somewhere else, and that they are knowledgeable enough about what is good and what is an inferior or unhealthy experience for any man (or woman), especially one of different gender or biology.

What limited sexual experiences I have available in my own life at the moment I will do my way, “thank you”.

My moral code for this part of life is essentially: You do you, how you want to do you. And I’ll do me, how I want to do me. I’d never presume I know what complexities are at play for you, any one else, or any gender. I’d never claim that you or any one is “doing it wrong”, and you should stop doing it that way or learn my way.

Not that it matters, but in case it will expand anyone’s awareness of the variety that exists amongst individuals, I’ll share that masturbation is something that comes easy for me, generally. Porn adds pleasure sometimes. Sometimes not. Sometimes I choose to use it. Sometimes not. Similar goes for fantasy, lubrication, or physical aids. I choose based upon my mood and circumstances. It’s not always an amazing experience, but generally serves a purpose or two. I’d prefer partnered sex most often, or did when it was available. I don’t believe porn has transformed me into someone who can respond only to porn, or only to the stereotypical professional porn actor or whatever body type is thought of as perfect in my culture or the media I consume. I’m fairly sure as time has gone on, I’m more attracted to more physical variations than the younger version of me ever was.

I feel no shame about my current practices, but did at a much younger age. And that stemmed from the disapproval I absorbed from the culture I grew up in, which seemed to convey strong opinions about what is “proper” when it comes to sexuality, masturbation included. Maybe that judgemental-ness is what triggers my frustration with some of the posts in this thread.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Re. _Potential_ link between increased ejaculation frequency and reduced prostrate cancer risk:









How Daily Masturbation Could Decrease Men's Risk Of Prostate Cancer







www.survivornet.com













Ejaculation frequency and prostate cancer - Harvard Health


Research into the connections between sexual activity and prostate cancer....




www.health.harvard.edu













Latest Evidence on the Impact of Smoking, Sports, and Sexual Activity as Modifiable Lifestyle Risk Factors for Prostate Cancer Incidence, Recurrence, and Progression: A Systematic Review of the Literature by the European Association of Urology Section of Oncological Urology (ESOU) - PubMed


In this systematic review, we looked at the impact of smoking, sexual activity, and sports and exercise on prostate cancer risk and outcome after treatment. While the evidence for sexual activity is not overall clear, we found that smoking might lead to more aggressive cancers and result in...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## Impulse

Girl_power said:


> My generation is having less sex than our parents and grandparents when they were our age. Younger men are now having ED, even in their early 30s. Men today’s testosterone levels are lower.
> 
> Porn is one of the reasons. Men now have porn, masterbating tools that are shaped like Vaginas, and even have sex dolls. Sex with a real women is too much work, stressful, and disappointing because they aren’t comfortable with not being good at please women out of the gate. And their egos can’t handle the learning process. Instead it’s easier to watch porn and masterbate and live in this fantasy world where a smoking hot 20 year old is dying to get banged by you.


Why do women still feel so threatened by porn? Obviously if it becomes an addiction or substitute for the real thing, I would understand. But in cases where it is just a substitute for when the guy can’t get any, then what’s the issue? It’s better than having mistresses or raping god forbid; this used to be the norm and I would say our society evolved to the better. 
The ideal situation is to have an understanding partner but we don’t live in the ideal world. Plus it’s not all about tits&ass for men, contrary to common wisdom. 
Also I’m not a porn apologist; I hardly ever use it - but I understand why men do.
And why is it about what men do anyway; shouldn’t it be about what YOUR guy does?


----------



## Girl_power

Impulse said:


> Why do women still feel so threatened by porn? Obviously if it becomes an addiction or substitute for the real thing, I would understand. But in cases where it is just a substitute for when the guy can’t get any, then what’s the issue? It’s better than having mistresses or raping god forbid; this used to be the norm and I would say our society evolved to the better.
> The ideal situation is to have an understanding partner but we don’t live in the ideal world. Plus it’s not all about tits&ass for men, contrary to common wisdom.
> Also I’m not a porn apologist; I hardly ever use it - but I understand why men do.
> And why is it about what men do anyway; shouldn’t it be about what YOUR guy does?


I’m not threatened by porn. I don’t like it when my sex life sucks because my partner can’t get or sustain an erection unless I have to act like a porn star. I don’t like it when sex becomes very difficult because I am responsible for giving my husband an erection but it’s difficult because he is so desensitized. I don’t like it when I have a great sex life, but my husband doesn’t think so because he doesn’t get x,y,z which he all of a sudden decided he desperately wants. I don’t like that no matter what I do, it’s never enough, he always wants more frequently or variety or something just different. 

It’s not about porn. It’s how it affects MY sex life.


----------



## Impulse

Girl_power said:


> I’m not threatened by porn. I don’t like it when my sex life sucks because my partner can’t get or sustain an erection unless I have to act like a porn star. I don’t like it when sex becomes very difficult because I am responsible for giving my husband an erection but it’s difficult because he is so desensitized. I don’t like it when I have a great sex life, but my husband doesn’t think so because he doesn’t get x,y,z which he all of a sudden decided he desperately wants. I don’t like that no matter what I do, it’s never enough, he always wants more frequently or variety or something just different.
> 
> It’s not about porn. It’s how it affects MY sex life.


Ah ok I see now. I am sorry for your struggles. I’m sure many are in the same boat as you.
Can you be sure it has anything to do with porn though?
Why don’t you ask him to not watch it for a month or two and see if there is any difference? Can’t be that he’s for him to grant you such a request.
Guys’ libido starts dropping off with age. It is sometimes opposite to what happens with women’s libido...It may not have anything to do with you or with porn. It could just be biology.


----------



## Girl_power

Impulse said:


> Ah ok I see now. I am sorry for your struggles. I’m sure many are in the same boat as you.
> Can you be sure it has anything to do with porn though?
> Why don’t you ask him to not watch it for a month or two and see if there is any difference? Can’t be that he’s for him to grant you such a request.
> Guys’ libido starts dropping off with age. It is sometimes opposite to what happens with women’s libido...It may not have anything to do with you or with porn. It could just be biology.


This is not my situation. I’m not married, and my boyfriend doesn’t watch much porn, he 100% agrees with me on what it does to you. He loves it and it’s a great fun connivence; but he knows that it CAN cause problems in sex lives especially long term. 

I read on here problems all the time that I believe relate to porn. One guy talks about how he loves his wife and she is always down for sex and loves it but he is not attracted to her body. She isn’t fat, she is just a middle aged women who had kids and it is what it is. To me, that is a porn problems. Women age, they have babies, and they sag. The problem is 60 year old men don’t sexualize and masterbate to 60 year old women, they do it to 20 year old women. That’s a huge problem imo. 

Men here always imo go through a midlife crises and decide their sex life isn’t good enough Because they don’t have anal, or oral or whatever it is they want. When they never got it before; but for some odd reason decide their sex life sucks because they aren’t getting X, and therefore it’s his wife’s problem and she isn’t meeting his needs and now he should divorce her. It’s insane the things I read on here. It’s always the... it’s never good enough syndrome. The I want more, different and better, I DESERVE more/different/better.


----------



## Livvie

Girl_power said:


> This is not my situation. I’m not married, and my boyfriend doesn’t watch much porn, he 100% agrees with me on what it does to you. He loves it and it’s a great fun connivence; but he knows that it CAN cause problems in sex lives especially long term.
> 
> I read on here problems all the time that I believe relate to porn. One guy talks about how he loves his wife and she is always down for sex and loves it but he is not attracted to her body. She isn’t fat, she is just a middle aged women who had kids and it is what it is. To me, that is a porn problems. Women age, they have babies, and they sag. The problem is 60 year old men don’t sexualize and masterbate to 60 year old women, they do it to 20 year old women. That’s a huge problem imo.
> 
> Men here always imo go through a midlife crises and decide their sex life isn’t good enough Because they don’t have anal, or oral or whatever it is they want. When they never got it before; but for some odd reason decide their sex life sucks because they aren’t getting X, and therefore it’s his wife’s problem and she isn’t meeting his needs and now he should divorce her. It’s insane the things I read on here. It’s always the... it’s never good enough syndrome. The I want more, different and better, I DESERVE more/different/better.


I agree, especially about-- for example, 60 year old men in relationships with women their age masturbating to porn featuring 19 year olds. Basically --- women their daughter's age, heck even granddaughter's age. That skeeves me out. I'm not currently in a relationship, but if I were and my partner were masturbating to 19 year olds it would turn me off in a massive way. You want to watch, get aroused to, and get off to 19 year old women ****ing??? Have at it then ... you are released from the relationship and free to try and find that in the real world. 

How many 60+ old dudes are able to score and regularly **** 19ish year olds?


----------



## moco82

Girl_power said:


> The problem is 60 year old men don’t sexualize and masterbate to 60 year old women, they do it to 20 year old women. That’s a huge problem imo.


Powerful/wealthy men have had young beautiful mistresses since time immemorial. Probably, since before our species emerged, as this pattern can be observed in other social species. Highly doubtful that pornography, let alone internet video pornography, is the cause.


----------



## moco82

Livvie said:


> How many 60+ old dudes are able to score and regularly **** 19ish year olds?


Very few, but the drive can be powerful enough to keep amassing money and power.

How many 60-yr-old women would, all things being equal, also prefer a (abstract) chiseled 19-yr-old body to a (abstract) 60-yr-old body? This is a counterproductive discussion.


----------



## Livvie

moco82 said:


> Very few, but the drive can be powerful enough to keep amassing money and power.
> 
> How many 60-yr-old women would, all things being equal, also prefer a (abstract) chiseled 19-yr-old body to a (abstract) 60-yr-old body? This is a counterproductive discussion.


It's not a counterproductive discussion. I was replying to and adding my same thoughts to what another poster says she feels.

It's very productive to discuss how it's a massive turn off if your 60 year old partner is getting off to 19 year old women porn. **** that 

I've very consistently, over the 6 years I've been a regular member of this forum, been someone who more often than not stands up for the reasonable sexual expectations of men in relationships with women who are not treating them with kindness, care, and providing a good (sexual) relationship. If you don't believe me--- go research my posts to learn my beliefs.

But it's asshole retorts like YOURS that are reminding me that men are sometimes big ****s when they have attitudes like yours and sometimes it's no wonder their partners aren't interested in sex with them.


----------



## LisaDiane

moco82 said:


> Very few, but the drive can be powerful enough to keep amassing money and power.
> 
> How many 60-yr-old women would, all things being equal, also prefer a (abstract) chiseled 19-yr-old body to a (abstract) 60-yr-old body? This is a counterproductive discussion.


Just FYI...I am a 51yr old woman, and I am NOT attracted to younger men and their "perfect" bodies at all -- that isn't what is perfect to ME. I am much more turned on by older men, even older than me...I cannot explain why, but young, hairless, skinny, "chiseled" men are NOT attractive at all to me.


----------



## moco82

Livvie said:


> It's very productive to discuss how it's a massive turn off if your 60 year old partner is getting off to 19 year old women porn. **** that


Perhaps men and women function differently in this space. I've never stopped being attracted to a woman if she admired an objectively attractive male body, be it an antique statue or an actor in a film.



> I've very consistently, over the 6 years I've been a regular member of this forum,


I'm retelling my observations of people I've seen and often known socially in different countries, urban and rural, different social classes. Ceteris paribus, people are only human and will be drawn to a physique society attributes health and dynamism to.



> been someone who more often than not stands up for the reasonable sexual expectations of men in relationships with women who are not treating them with kindness, care, and providing a good (sexual) relationship.


This is a whole lot of context for an individual relationship. Sounds like one person is mistreating another person. A person can mistreat their partner and not watch young actors in porn; or a person can treat their partner well and watch young actors in porn.



> But it's asshole retorts like YOURS that are reminding me that men are sometimes big ****s


I will not dignify personal attacks with a response.


----------



## moco82

LisaDiane said:


> Just FYI...I am a 51yr old woman, and I am NOT attracted to younger men and their "perfect" bodies at all -- that isn't what is perfect to ME. I am much more turned on by older men, even older than me...I cannot explain why, but young, hairless, skinny, "chiseled" men are NOT attractive at all to me.


Good on you! Though "skinny" and "chiseled" sound at odds with one another.


----------



## Livvie

moco82 said:


> Perhaps men and women function differently in this space. I've never stopped being attracted to a woman if she admired an objectively attractive male body, be it an antique statue or an actor in a film.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm retelling my observations of people I've seen and often known socially in different countries, urban and rural, different social classes. Ceteris paribus, people are only human and will be drawn to a physique society attributes health and dynamism to.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a whole lot of context for an individual relationship. Sounds like one person is mistreating another person. A person can mistreat their partner and not watch young actors in porn; or a person can treat their partner well and watch young actors in porn.
> 
> 
> 
> I will not dignify personal attacks with a response.


You are deliberately trying to refute what two women have told you. You refuting it and trying to spin it, isn't going to change the facts of it. 

There is a world of difference between admiring an actor in a film, and an older man with a same age partner who is continually GETTING OFF to porn featuring women 40 and 50 years younger than himself or his partner. 

It's what he's training himself to get sexually aroused and get off to.

It's not "admiring" or "looking at".


----------



## moco82

Livvie said:


> You are deliberately trying to refute what two women have told you. You refuting it and trying to spin it, isn't going to change the facts of it.


Not all women's brains work the same, and many (perhaps not a majority), will be attracted to athletic bodies. I've both dated and been friends with such women. Other women I've met are wired along the same lines as you and LisaDiane.

My post that triggered your response did not imply that 100% of 60-yr-old women would be aroused by a young athletic body, but that a non-trivial percentage would be. This percentage rises among men. For example, I generally avoid porn clips with classical Playboy-looking models, as such women never made up a majority of my experiences in real life. But certainly a non-trivial portion of men would look to such clips, judging by the sheer number of them.



> There is a world of difference between admiring an actor in a film


I respectfully disagree. In both cases, external stimulus, extraneous to the relationship. Some people would draw the red line at even the most innocent external stimulus; others only at a point when there is addiction to said stimulus to the point of ED.


----------



## Livvie

moco82 said:


> Not all women's brains work the same, and many (perhaps not a majority), will be attracted to athletic bodies. I've both dated and been friends with such women. Other women I've met are wired along the same lines as you and LisaDiane.
> 
> My post that triggered your response did not imply that 100% of 60-yr-old women would be aroused by a young athletic body, but that a non-trivial percentage would be. This percentage rises among men. For example, I generally avoid porn clips with classical Playboy-looking models, as such women never made up a majority of my experiences in real life. But certainly a non-trivial portion of men would look to such clips, judging by the sheer number of them.
> 
> 
> 
> I respectfully disagree. In both cases, external stimulus, extraneous to the relationship. Some people would draw the red line at even the most innocent external stimulus; others only at a point when there is addiction to said stimulus to the point of ED.


Well, I disagree as well. Continually masturbating to porn of women _multiple decades_ younger than yourself isn't extraneous to a relationship. It has a direct bearing on it.

Add in the massive ick factor of--- that could be your daughter or granddaughter.


----------



## moco82

Is Emmanuel Macron's marriage icky?


----------



## LisaDiane

moco82 said:


> Good on you! Though "skinny" and "chiseled" sound at odds with one another.


Well, not every young guy is a weight-lifter, I just meant whatever society thinks of as "in shape"...I actually prefer men to have a little weight on them as well!!


----------



## Cletus

Girl_power said:


> I get it. I think masterbation is healthy. Men should ejaculate 5x a week to prevent colon cancer.
> You shouldn’t need an aid. Honestly. You should be able to think Of something sexy and be able to masterbate. If you can’t, then you have been Desensitized, and more porn is NOT the answer.
> 
> 
> There is a movement going on, I think in the red pill society that people are giving up porn. There are a lot of positive things that happen when you do so.


On the plus side, at least I now know how it feels to be **** shamed in a public forum by someone not of my gender telling me how I "should" be sexual.


----------



## moco82

Cletus said:


> On the plus side, at least I now know how it feels to be **** shamed in a public forum by someone not of my gender telling me how I "should" be sexual.


I think you're allowed to imagine 19-yr-old women, just not view imagery with them. Still figuring out the nuances.


----------



## LisaDiane

Didn't George Burns say something about that once when he was around 100...? Like, "I liked 19yr old women when I was 19, why wouldn't I like them now?"...Lol!!


----------



## moco82

LisaDiane said:


> Didn't George Burns say something about that once when he was around 100...? Like, "I liked 19yr old women when I was 19, why wouldn't I like them now?"...Lol!!


When he was 19, the drinking age was lower. Once I hit 21, I wouldn't date under-21-year-olds.


----------



## LisaDiane

moco82 said:


> When he was 19, the drinking age was lower. Once I hit 21, I wouldn't date under-21-year-olds.


Unless they had a fake ID...?? Lol!!


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

moco82 said:


> I think you're allowed to imagine 19-yr-old women, just not view imagery with them. Still figuring out the nuances.


Somewhere I'm sure I'm missing something here because it's a hoot for me to think that others think they can tell me what is age, size, number, color, height, weight etc of women, or anything- appropriate for me to think about. It's a surety there are others with my perspective.

Talk about a group that has reality to yet drop on them. Thought police can kiss my ass.


----------



## Girl_power

The guys aren’t getting it. Your allowed to be attracted to whoever you want. Your allowed to watch porn as often and to whatever you want. I’m not telling anyone what they can’t and can do. I am saying that I am not ok with my partner watching this type of porn. Just like it’s not ok if my partner watches gay porn. It’s a red flag, it’s a boundary. If that is what they like, that’s totally cool with me, but you will no longer be my partner. 


It’s the same as being transgendered. I’m totally ok with it. People should do whatever they want to do. However, I will never date a transgender. 


We all have things we won’t date. Their porn preference is included in that.


----------



## moco82

Girl_power said:


> We all have things we won’t date. Their porn preference is included in that.


Maybe we should start not from the side of restrictions, but from the side of inclusions. I know you're not a fan of porn, but--as a thought experiment--if in a given situation (say, your husband is a scientist in Antarctica) porn was within the pale, what are the parameters of the the actresses that you're willing to accept? An age range within your own? BMI range within your own? Hair colour?


----------



## Girl_power

moco82 said:


> Maybe we should start not from the side of restrictions, but from the side of inclusions. I know you're not a fan of porn, but--as a thought experiment--if in a given situation (say, your husband is a scientist in Antarctica) porn was within the pale, what are the parameters of the the actresses that you're willing to accept? An age range within your own? BMI range within your own? Hair colour?


Porn should not be SUCH a big deal that the person is willing to “fight for it” if they know it makes their spouse mad. That’s insane to me. Your going to fight for the right to view some porn over having a relationship with me? Ahh goodbye. That’s an easy decision to make.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Girl_power said:


> The guys aren’t getting it. Your allowed to be attracted to whoever you want. Your allowed to watch porn as often and to whatever you want. I’m not telling anyone what they can’t and can do. I am saying that I am not ok with my partner watching this type of porn. Just like it’s not ok if my partner watches gay porn. It’s a red flag, it’s a boundary. If that is what they like, that’s totally cool with me, but you will no longer be my partner.
> 
> 
> It’s the same as being transgendered. I’m totally ok with it. People should do whatever they want to do. However, I will never date a transgender.
> 
> 
> We all have things we won’t date. Their porn preference is included in that.


I can dig it.

And, I wasn't even talking about porn in my , yes, I'll agree, mini-diatribe.


----------



## Cletus

Girl_power said:


> I’m not telling anyone what they can’t and can do.


Really? You certainly seem to be using the word "should" a lot. 



Girl_power said:


> You shouldn’t need an aid. Honestly. You should be able to think Of something sexy and be able to masterbate. If you can’t, then you have been Desensitized, and more porn is NOT the answer.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Girl_power said:


> I get it. I think masterbation is healthy. Men should ejaculate 5x a week to prevent colon cancer.
> You shouldn’t need an aid. Honestly. You should be able to think Of something sexy and be able to masterbate. If you can’t, then you have been Desensitized, and more porn is NOT the answer.
> 
> 
> There is a movement going on, I think in the red pill society that people are giving up porn. There are a lot of positive things that happen when you do so.


"You shouldn't need an aid" ?

I'm not pro/con on porn but I am immediately suspicious when someone says I shouldn't need something.


----------



## Girl_power

Cletus said:


> Really? You certainly seem to be using the word "should" a lot.


Hell yea I will should all over you.


----------



## Girl_power

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> "You shouldn't need an aid" ?
> 
> I'm not pro/con on porn but I am immediately suspicious when someone says I shouldn't need something.


I stand by my should.


----------



## Girl_power

I should work out 3x a week and eat more vegetables. But you know.... 

We are allowed to should.


----------



## Cletus

Girl_power said:


> I stand by my should.


Then own it. Don't claim you're not doing it then blame us for "not getting it".


----------



## Girl_power

Cletus said:


> Then own it. Don't claim you're not doing it then blame us for "not getting it".


I am owning it. Should does not mean there is only one choice and all others should not be allowed and legal. 

Should means ought to. Personally one should not be masterbating to someone 50 years younger than them. But they can. 
You shouldn’t kill people, but you can.


----------



## Girl_power

There is judgement with should-ing people. But we all judge in different ways.


----------



## moco82

Girl_power said:


> Porn should not be SUCH a big deal that the person is willing to “fight for it” if they know it makes their spouse mad. That’s insane to me. Your going to fight for the right to view some porn over having a relationship with me? Ahh goodbye. That’s an easy decision to make.


Earlier, you stated that men should ejaculate 5x/week to stay healthy. If your husband can get your help with that 0,5–1x/week, what is the answer, short of divorce?


----------



## Livvie

moco82 said:


> Is Emmanuel Macron's marriage icky?


How nonsensical.

An age difference between mutual, married partners is in no way equatable to an older married man, married to a same aged woman, who is consistently and continually using porn to get off to that features women multiple decades younger than both himself and his wife.


----------



## moco82

Livvie said:


> How nonsensical.
> 
> An age difference between mutual, married partners is in no way equatable to an older married man, married to a same aged woman, who is consistently and continually using porn to get off to that features women multiple decades younger than both himself and his wife.


What if this man is getting off to images of an actress several decades older than his wife?


----------



## Livvie

moco82 said:


> What if this man is getting off to images of an actress several decades older than his wife?


Images, or porn?


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Image = image, porn = images,

What's your intended differentiator(s)?


----------



## Livvie

There is a difference between images of someone and porn.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

@Livvie 

Naked images, as in are the images sans clothes?

🙂😘 I admit to just pulling your chain, just a bit.

But part of me is curious to know where you are drawing the line.


----------



## Girl_power

moco82 said:


> Earlier, you stated that men should ejaculate 5x/week to stay healthy. If your husband can get your help with that 0,5–1x/week, what is the answer, short of divorce?


My boyfriend has a lower sex drive than me. 

But like I already said... he can masterbate!


----------



## moco82

Livvie said:


> Images, or porn?


Porn.

P. S. As Ragnar, I'm curious about where the line is drawn, but choosing one option to move things along.


----------



## Livvie

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> @Livvie
> 
> Naked images, as in are the images sans clothes?
> 
> 🙂😘 I admit to just pulling your chain, just a bit.
> 
> But part of me is curious to know where you are drawing the line.


Yes you are! All of this pulling my chain started because I have a negative view of older men in their 60s 70s and older WHO HAVE SAME AGE SPOUSES who _WANT to have sex with them_, and the men are getting off to porn of women decades younger than themselves or their spouses. I feel it's a total turn off, and yeah I also said icky. If you have a close loving wife who wants you sexually, and you are training yourself to get aroused by and to orgasm to women multiple decades younger than yourself or your spouse....ick. You and your wife are a team and you are getting off to woman who are maybe your granddaughter's age. Blech. 

Of course there is a difference between admiring clothed beautiful young people and jerking off to watching them **** in porn. You know that!


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Livvie said:


> Yes you are! All of this pulling my chain started because I have a negative view of older men in their 60s 70s and older WHO HAVE SAME AGE SPOUSES who _WANT to have sex with them_, and the men are getting off to porn of women decades younger than themselves or their spouses. I feel it's a total turn off, and yeah I also said icky. If you have a close loving wife who wants you sexually, and you are training yourself to get aroused by and to orgasm to women multiple decades younger than yourself or your spouse....ick. You and your wife are a team and you are getting off to woman who are maybe your granddaughter's age. Blech.
> 
> Of course there is a difference between admiring clothed beautiful young people and jerking off to watching them **** in porn. You know that!


And that is very true, I agree.

I do believe I'm fortunate in that regard. Since Saturday so far DW and I have enjoyed each other six times.


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## cd2

Men need neither porn nor masturbation. What they need is called "self control". Married men especially should just get more in-tune with their wives... get creative, romantic, thoughtful... just use your sexual frustration for good, creative, and healthful things... wacking it in the shower or to porn doesn't really help... it's just just a lazy way to avoid some short term "suffering" and neglect the woman that said man has professed his love for. That time in the shower would be better served by brainstorming how he's going to get kids in bed early and how to romance his wife later that day...

I think there's only one study that says ejaculating over twenty times a week may be healthy and prevent prostate cancer- it's certainly not proven science. I don't buy it and I speak from personal experience as a fifty plus year old man with no prostate, ED, or other men's problems and haven't masturbated regularly for decades. The benefit of "no-FAP" is men can look themselves in the mirror and know "I was true to my wife". As for me, I give my wife 100% of my sexual power.. _no excuses_ and the only cost is the short term relief paid for by self control. If a man marries the woman of his dreams... he should give her no less than 100%. I mean men, do you want to give her 100% of your manhood, masculinity, and hardness- or not? 

I suppose some guys get stuck with crappy wives and this wouldn't work. Conversely, some guys turn their wives crappy by being dirty creeps that watch porn every day and then think their wives are supposed to be emotionless nympho-bimbos like those on screen. I should add that those poor bimbos are most likely victims of sexual abuse and exploitation and by watching their performances you are a contributor.

In sum masturbation is unnecessary and wrong but pales in comparison to porn- which is very unnecessary and very wrong.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

cd2 said:


> Men need neither porn nor masturbation. What they need is called "self control". Married men especially should just get more in-tune with their wives... get creative, romantic, thoughtful... just use your sexual frustration for good, creative, and healthful things... wacking it in the shower or to porn doesn't really help... it's just just a lazy way to avoid some short term "suffering" and neglect the woman that said man has professed his love for. That time in the shower would be better served by brainstorming how he's going to get kids in bed early and how to romance his wife later that day...
> 
> I think there's only one study that says ejaculating over twenty times a week may be healthy and prevent prostate cancer- it's certainly not proven science. I don't buy it and I speak from personal experience as a fifty plus year old man with no prostate, ED, or other men's problems and haven't masturbated regularly for decades. The benefit of "no-FAP" is men can look themselves in the mirror and know "I was true to my wife". As for me, I give my wife 100% of my sexual power.. _no excuses_ and the only cost is the short term relief paid for by self control. If a man marries the woman of his dreams... he should give her no less than 100%. I mean men, do you want to give her 100% of your manhood, masculinity, and hardness- or not?
> 
> I suppose some guys get stuck with crappy wives and this wouldn't work. Conversely, some guys turn their wives crappy by being dirty creeps that watch porn every day and then think their wives are supposed to be emotionless nympho-bimbos like those on screen. I should add that those poor bimbos are most likely victims of sexual abuse and exploitation and by watching their performances you are a contributor.
> 
> In sum masturbation is unnecessary and wrong but pales in comparison to porn- which is very unnecessary and very wrong.


Well, no.


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## moco82

After dreaming a bit about living in @cd2's utopia...

That works great when drives are aligned, but in reality they aren't most of the time. This is what I regret most about not being compatible in other areas with women with whom I clicked frequency-wise--wouldn't it be great to remove that pain-in-the-neck and have one fewer thing to worry about between jobs, house maintenance, and children? Heck yeah.

In reality, I've been on the opposite end as well. Meaning, dating women with significantly higher drives (and I was in my 20s!--I would think, what would happen over the years as my drive declines and theirs only rises). It is quite a nuisance to be badgered for sex when you are physically done with it, at least 24 hours, please! I cannot keep up with 3x/day, PIV every time, and not because I'm no longer attracted to you! Partners need space and recovery time. No amount of creativity and romancing was going to enable me to do PIV 3x/day every day.

Hence, I'd like to think that I understood my lower-drive partners and gave them what they wanted. Could the ratio be turned from 1 sex/5 masturbations per week to 2 sex/2 masturbation per week? Perhaps. [Even disregarding the small problem of early ejaculation after days of build-up.] But could it turn to 6 sex/0 masturbation per week? Doubtful.


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## heartsbeating

Girl_power said:


> Hell yea I will should all over you.


That sounds... _naughty._


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## heartsbeating

I have gotten momentarily tangled in the 'should' ...interestingly, replacing 'should' with 'could' changes the feel of what is being communicated. In terms of 'You should exercise daily...' compared with 'You could exercise daily...'


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## heartsbeating

moco82 said:


> Question for the ladies with lower drives than their husbands.
> 
> 1. You know your husband achieves more orgasms on his own (usually with porn) than with you (about 80-90%).
> 2. You know he does not cheat.
> 3. He does not hide his masturbation or porn viewing.
> 4. He never refuses you intimacy when you initiate sex.
> 5. He doesn't harbour ill will and prefers masturbation to pressuring you into undesired sex.
> 6. You're in a mature relationship of mutual respect, where you know not everything can be perfect, you both work and divide child care and house chores evenly. You're both also very tired most of the time and kids don't leave many hours per week when you're alone and functional at the same time.
> 
> Is this configuration ideal for the eternally-discussed low-drive/high-drive cohabitation, or would you quietly be bothered by the ratio?


Maybe I've missed some context here. Does this apply to your relationship dynamic?

I can't relate to this hypothetical. What I did find missing in this numerical list, however, is the mention of him initiating/flirting/seducing... is that not part of the equation because of perceived not 'pressuring you into undesired sex'? Whether this is mutually satisfying and agreeable for a relationship, would be for the individuals decide.


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## heartsbeating

moco82 said:


> Could the ratio be turned from 1 sex/5 masturbations per week to 2 sex/2 masturbation per week? Perhaps. [Even disregarding the small problem of early ejaculation after days of build-up.] But could it turn to 6 sex/0 masturbation per week? Doubtful.


I didn't know math would be involved!


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

This is a stretch, and I admit it up front that here's a question that will challenge a Ws commitment to her H not masturbating.

She says she wants what is best for H.
As conveyed earlier in thread, it's believed that man ejaculating at least 5x a week is best to avoid prostate problems and she and he believe that.
She only wants sex once a week, every two weeks is better in her mind.

But remember the 5xs a week goal for health?

She doesn't want him masturbating and condemns him for it.

Here's the question:
Will the W give handjobs the other 4xs a week, you know, for the Hs good health?

She says she wants her H to be as healthy as possible.

Will she do it for him or have to backtrack?

What will backtracking look like?

Or, what will be the end result of all the rigamarole?

Again, I admit this is intended to be thought provoking, there is no one answer that checks all boxes.

What will happen?


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## Impulse

Girl_power said:


> I read on here problems all the time that I believe relate to porn.


You think the problems are porn related, it doesn’t mean they always are. Just like lack of sex is just a symptom of something else, doesn’t mean that it’s always the lack of sex itself that is causing the issues.

I understand why you think the way you think but I don’t think it is a fair representation of reality, using such a broad brush just because you think you found an explanation.

I don’t think it is healthy to create a taboo surrounding porn for men and porn-shame us with a broad brush. Many (most) men will still watch it, even if they feel guilty about (or ESPECIALLY if they feel guilty...). ‘Guilty’ can be sexy too...

I can honestly say that in my case, porn contributed positively towards our marriage. I think the problem is that women have a very superficial view of what it is guys find attractive about their wives. So what, if my wife may have a few more wrinkles or her tits are not as perky after having been sucked on by multiple kids (including myself); she is still sexy af. As long as I feel that she wants me and as long as we love each other, there’s no way a sexy MILF or any of the horny Stepsisters can ever come inbetween us.


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## bobert

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Will the W give handjobs the other 4xs a week, you know, for the Hs good health?


Does any guy really want hand jobs 4x a week, indefinitely? I certainly wouldn't.


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## Impulse

moco82 said:


> After dreaming a bit about living in @cd2's utopia...
> 
> That works great when drives are aligned, but in reality they aren't most of the time. This is what I regret most about not being compatible in other areas with women with whom I clicked frequency-wise--wouldn't it be great to remove that pain-in-the-neck and have one fewer thing to worry about between jobs, house maintenance, and children? Heck yeah.
> 
> In reality, I've been on the opposite end as well. Meaning, dating women with significantly higher drives (and I was in my 20s!--I would think, what would happen over the years as my drive declines and theirs only rises). It is quite a nuisance to be badgered for sex when you are physically done with it, at least 24 hours, please! I cannot keep up with 3x/day, PIV every time, and not because I'm no longer attracted to you! Partners need space and recovery time. No amount of creativity and romancing was going to enable me to do PIV 3x/day every day.
> 
> Hence, I'd like to think that I understood my lower-drive partners and gave them what they wanted. Could the ratio be turned from 1 sex/5 masturbations per week to 2 sex/2 masturbation per week? Perhaps. [Even disregarding the small problem of early ejaculation after days of build-up.] But could it turn to 6 sex/0 masturbation per week? Doubtful.


Who is counting?  I think a lot of women’s sex drives are very different in that it is not some kind of ‘reservoir’ that is ‘emptied’ and will need time to ‘refill’ with desire...At least it is my (superficial) understanding that it is not...
It had frequently happened that after sex, she was even more horny than before (ok, maybe it’s because I’m terrible, was my first thought...but apparently that’s not it ).
I have a feeling this whole ‘frequency matching’ is a bit of a red herring.
When there is counting, then perhaps the question should be rephrased to “how often can she bear me ****ing her” and not what the ‘mutually agreeable frequency’ is.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

@bobert 

You're right, full sex is best the entire week.

I shouldn't have limited her helping his release to W handjobs.

So, if she will only have sex once a week, but she's to support the 5x week consistently, list her options to do him, so she can stick to her beliefs He's not to masturbate?

Good point btw.


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## Impulse

bobert said:


> Does any guy really want hand jobs 4x a week, indefinitely? I certainly wouldn't.


Depends on the hand job


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Barring a couple that already has porn call it addiction and severe porn caused long term serious problems which have escalated.......

Would it be safe to say for the most part a W wanting H to never ever mast and can't wait to catch him, is all about the W?

This is where the proverbial chicken and egg come into play.

Bear in mind as always I state I'm not pro/con on porn.

Just interested at times in boiling down problems and solutions to the simplest forms for clarity.


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## LisaDiane

moco82 said:


> After dreaming a bit about living in @cd2's utopia...


THIS made me laugh out loud!!!!!



moco82 said:


> In reality, I've been on the opposite end as well. Meaning, dating women with significantly higher drives (and I was in my 20s!--I would think, what would happen over the years as my drive declines and theirs only rises). *It is quite a nuisance to be badgered for sex when you are physically done with it, at least 24 hours, please! I cannot keep up with 3x/day, PIV every time, and not because I'm no longer attracted to you! Partners need space and recovery time. No amount of creativity and romancing was going to enable me to do PIV 3x/day every day.*


I think you should counsel HD husbands with LD wives, and explain this to them...Lol!


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## LisaDiane

heartsbeating said:


> I didn't know math would be involved!


That's what I thought too!!!! Lolol! FUNNY!!!!


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## moco82

LisaDiane said:


> I think you should counsel HD husbands with LD wives, and explain this to them...Lol!


That's what this thread is unexpectedly turning into. And not a single thank-you from LD wives! I suppose the selection bias for this type of forum is that it overrepresents dissatisfied partners, while LD wives carry on with their lives perfectly content.


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## moco82

heartsbeating said:


> That sounds... _naughty._


Freudian slip by Girl_power.


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## LisaDiane

moco82 said:


> That's what this thread is unexpectedly turning into. And not a single thank-you from LD wives! I suppose the selection bias for this type of forum is that it overrepresents dissatisfied partners, while LD wives carry on with their lives perfectly content.


So much genius and NO appreciation...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Wait a minute. I'm now figuring out why my W keeps me well fed.

I don't need batteries but good groceries. 

Oh, the horror! She's keeping me for HER pleasure and wants me to think it's MY idea to have sex whenever she wants.

Woe is me.
But I can live with it. 😎😎❤❤👍👍


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## PieceOfSky

.


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## jlg07

LisaDiane said:


> Well, not every young guy is a weight-lifter, I just meant whatever society thinks of as "in shape"...I actually prefer men to have a little weight on them as well!!


So YOU are the ONE woman that Maxim interviewed to find out that "women prefer Dad Bodies!!!"








Women Find the 'Dad Bod' More Attractive, Says Yale Professor - Maxim


Sorry, Johnny six-pack.




www.maxim.com


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## LisaDiane

jlg07 said:


> So YOU are the ONE woman that Maxim interviewed to find out that "women prefer Dad Bodies!!!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Women Find the 'Dad Bod' More Attractive, Says Yale Professor - Maxim
> 
> 
> Sorry, Johnny six-pack.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.maxim.com


Lolol!!!! YES!!! That WAS me! I remember it well because they provided free cookies!!!!!!


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## moco82

jlg07 said:


> So YOU are the ONE woman that Maxim interviewed to find out that "women prefer Dad Bodies!!!"


I doubt they actually surveyed anyone, just a bunch of middle-aged Maxim editors trusted the numbers to Excel's random number generator.


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## Impulse

LisaDiane said:


> You can be ashamed all YOU want (although I think it's a ridiculous waste of emotions), but you have NO right to tell other people what is good or right FOR THEM...nor do you have the right to SHAME anyone for what they do to their own bodies.


Sometimes, it makes one get to the finish line a lot quicker, if you are ashamed, very ashamed. Maybe that’s what he was getting at?


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## Impulse

Counting sheep before sleep is beginning to take a whole new meaning now


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## Personal

cd2 said:


> I guess your point is no one is ever allowed to say anything contrary to another person because it might hurt their precious feelings? With your "logic" then husbands can masturbate all day and ignore their wives then....it's THEIR BODY and no one has a right to tell them otherwise.


Well it doesn't need to be so limiting. I mean unless the plumbing is broken, a man ought to be able to masturbate often and still easily **** his wife up and down plus sideways a couple of times a day or more.

That said if a husband would rather masturbate all day instead of having sex with their wife or husband, then that's entirely up to them. Just as it also applies to a wife who would rather masturbate all day instead of sharing sex with their husband or wife.



> The REALITY is that or lives are a gift from God and we should use these gifts to try and serve and please Him. God seems to want us to enjoy their use to some extent (eat good food, make love to our spouses, welcome children into the marriage, etc.) but I think it's pretty clear that we shouldn't be playing with ourselves with porn... that seems crystal clear to me.


Well unless you can actually prove that any gods exist, I'll ignore the above. Except to say that playing with ourselves can be great fun, just as looking at pornography can be a pleasure as well. So I encourage all adults to have at it when they want to.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Impulse said:


> Why do you feel you need to ‘please’ God? Just curious. What are YOU supposed to get out of it?
> Why can’t you please yourself for once or twice? And why do you think God wouldn’t be happy, once you felt pleased and satisfied? He gave us a **** and a hand or two; I mean don’t you think he would have maybe made the arms a bit shorter or something, so it wouldn’t be so easy to constantly reach down there?


Kindly, if you're not open minded or religious you'll likely never get it.

I'm not saying this to stir your pot but to highlight it's a tad wearying when a person throws out what they think are novel questions to stir said pot.

If you want to start a religious thread my suggestion is to start one of your own in the Spiritual and Religion forum.

Otherwise kind of unproductive. But good try!


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## Impulse

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Kindly, if you're not open minded or religious you'll likely never get it.
> 
> I'm not saying this to stir your pot but to highlight it's a tad wearying when a person throws out what they think are novel questions to stir said pot.
> 
> If you want to start a religious thread my suggestion is to start one of your own in the Spiritual and Religion forum.
> 
> Otherwise kind of unproductive. But good try!


What makes you say I’m not ‘open minded’? Just because I don’t believe God gets angry every time I touch myself, doesn’t mean I am not open-minded...
Just trying to help the poor guy.
But fine, maybe I should pass this over to the capable hands and the religious authority @Diana7....
Diana7, do you believe God gets furious every time you are at it?
I will get my coat ....


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## DTO

Girl_power said:


> The solution is to masterbate without porn. It’s not that hard. Use your imagination, remember that?


Depends on what you have in your memory banks. Some guys' sex lives are so bad nothing with their partner is spank-worthy. What do you do then?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Girl_power said:


> The solution is to masterbate without porn. It’s not that hard. Use your imagination, remember that?


That's like eating ice cream but stating no chocolate syrup because syrup is too fattening. 

The ship has sailed at the ice cream.

Just for different viewpoint.


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## WandaJ

Late to the party, but have a question for @Girl_power. What do you think about toys that women use to masterbate? Are they ok, or we should try without them?


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## Girl_power

WandaJ said:


> Late to the party, but have a question for @Girl_power. What do you think about toys that women use to masterbate? Are they ok, or we should try without them?


I think a women should know how to pleasure herself without toys. I don’t think there is anything wrong with them, they are fun to use together. I would understand if the man is uncomfortable with it though.


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## Lance Mannion

Girl_power said:


> I think a women should know how to pleasure herself without toys. I don’t think there is anything wrong with them, they are fun to use together. I would understand if the man is uncomfortable with it though.


I haven't yet read the entire thread, but has anyone raised the issue of dependency on the vibrator?


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## Girl_power

Lance Mannion said:


> I haven't yet read the entire thread, but has anyone raised the issue of dependency on the vibrator?


Nope. And I’m sure most people’s opinions are the same with porn, shouldn’t depend on it.


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## WandaJ

Lance Mannion said:


> I haven't yet read the entire thread, but has anyone raised the issue of dependency on the vibrator?


No, the whole tread was on porn. But yes overuse of vibrators has tge same effect as overuse of porn - makes the real life sex less attractive.


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## ConanHub

Girl_power said:


> I think a women should know how to pleasure herself without toys. I don’t think there is anything wrong with them, they are fun to use together. I would understand if the man is uncomfortable with it though.


The woman is in my case. I'm all for it. She won't let me get near her with anything that isn't my biology.😋


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## moco82

WandaJ said:


> No, the whole tread was on porn.


Actually, my thought was on any kind of aided self-pleasure. But since I framed it in traditional gender roles in marriage, the focus automatically was on porn. In retrospect, it should have said porn and/or any mechanical aides, for either sex.


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## WandaJ

moco82 said:


> Actually, my thought was on any kind of aided self-pleasure. But since I framed it in traditional gender roles in marriage, the focus automatically was on porn. In retrospect, it should have said porn and/or any mechanical aides, for either sex.


too late now lol


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## Lance Mannion

WandaJ said:


> No, the whole tread was on porn. But yes overuse of vibrators has tge same effect as overuse of porn - makes the real life sex less attractive.


I was thinking more along physiological terms, so for men the issue wouldn't be porn, it would be masturbation where there is a tighter grip than the vagina, and for women the vibrator has, well, frequency, those vibrations are quite rapid, something that no man can actually duplicate. So the brain gets trained to respond to only the heightened sensations so that other partners can now no longer measure up physically.


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## moco82

Lance Mannion said:


> I was thinking more along physiological terms, so for men the issue wouldn't be porn, it would be masturbation where there is a tighter grip than the vagina, and for women the vibrator has, well, frequency, those vibrations are quite rapid, something that no man can actually duplicate. So the brain gets trained to respond to only the heightened sensations so that other partners can now no longer measure up physically.


I don't know if it's true in 100% of cases. I've often found it easier to orgasm from a skilled fellatio giver/tight vagina than from my own hand. Maybe that's just aging and carpal tunnel.


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## aaarghdub

Lance Mannion said:


> I was thinking more along physiological terms, so for men the issue wouldn't be porn, it would be masturbation where there is a tighter grip than the vagina, and for women the vibrator has, well, frequency, those vibrations are quite rapid, something that no man can actually duplicate. So the brain gets trained to respond to only the heightened sensations so that other partners can now no longer measure up physically.


In terms of porn-related death grip and a guy can’t replicate the vibrator’s sensations, I agree. 

Outside of that, my experience has been partners who assume they know everything about a guy’s penis. No light touching or warmup, just grab it, jerk up and down and repeat until it’s over. I have experienced some painful hand jobs in my time. Seriously, I wouldn’t just start on my partner’s spot like I’m working through a pile of scratch of tickets with a quarter. I liken it to having someone scratch your back. They can’t feel it so the chances of them “hitting the spot” are hit or miss. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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