# suggestions on how to reconcile



## londonguy

Married for 6 months, 10 year relationship, my wife is pregnant with a 4 month baby. A couple of days back we had a big argument and I said I want a divorce, it was a silly thing to say since it came out of spite, never meant it. My wife now plans to give me what I asked for and she seems very serious about it.

To give a bit of a background, I'm on medication and side effects include dizziness and tiredness. I was outdoors already for 9 hours, wanted to get sleep and despite me suggesting otherwise, she arranged for something (for both of us). When the social obligation ended I was out for 12 hours in a row, no food for the whole day (can't eat at any time due to medication which must be taken with empty stomach). I said she doesn't consider me at all, that she makes all the decisions and it's like I'm not there, asked for a divorce, I was on an emotional roller coaster. She left the car, didn't reply any of my 10 calls and then I called her mother (mistake I know...) to say I can't take this any more and I'll be returning her car & I'll be flying back to the country where we live permanently soon (which may have to happen as I may need a surgery but didn't say it because of that), was somewhat calmer on the phone with my mother in law. 

Next day I called to apologise for what I said. Too late, she won't pick up the phone most of the time and when she does she gives me 20 seconds, then she hangs up on me. She rarely replies to texts as well and will not see me. 

A similar row had happened 2 more times (I mentioned divorce). One time it was due to her putting on sound proof headphones when I wanted to talk family financials (we overspend), the other time it was a trip where I had explicitly mentioned I'll need sleep which I didn't get as she wanted to go straight to the event (prior to the trip was sleeping 4-5 hours per day for 2 weeks due to work commitments). During the trip she was mad at me, I promised this would not happen again and ... I broke my promise a couple of days ago.

I apologise every day and ask her to talk to me. She says she doesn't trust me anymore and whatever I promise her is worthless. When I say I've been there for 10 years by her side, how can she not trust me, she says this all changed the last few months (which include the other two incidents).

I can't imagine life without my soon to be born baby and I love my wife very deeply.

Any advice on how to fix this would be really really valuable, I want to save my marriage and raise my child with her, I don't want to be the "other" parent and I'll do everything I can to prevent this from happening.


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## londonguy

Just to add that I have made some decissions in the last couple of days so that we avoid similar situations. I'll start counselling, I'll stop preparing for that job interview that's draining my energy as my wife and soon to be born kid are more important than my career and I'll start a sport to improve my physique & resistance against tireness, lack of sleep etc.

At this point however, I can't even communicate these, let alone discuss with her.


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## Evinrude58

I am sorry you're here. Without your wife talking to you-/ no way.

Don't push her. Don't be needy. Don't seek reassurance from her. It will turn her off. Let her know you don't really want a divorce, and want to talk when she's ready, and LEAVE it at that.

You cannot force her to stay married, reconcile, or anything else.

You've got to let her come to you. 
You've got your mother in law working against you now. Don't try to talk to either of them.

Good luck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

Thanks for your response, you are probably right in your suggestion. I have to admit, I have sent a huge amount of texts the last couple of days and made an insane number of calls to her. I'm in a strange limbo w.r.t. my wedding, if I'll be next to my child when he needs me and most of the day I'm at bed with fever. 



Evinrude58 said:


> I am sorry you're here. Without your wife talking to you-/ no way.
> 
> Don't push her. Don't be needy. Don't seek reassurance from her. It will turn her off. Let her know you don't really want a divorce, and want to talk when she's ready, and LEAVE it at that.
> 
> You cannot force her to stay married, reconcile, or anything else.
> 
> You've got to let her come to you.
> You've got your mother in law working against you now. Don't try to talk to either of them.
> 
> Good luck
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr.Fisty

She needs to work on her own end to. She reacts like a child, throwing tantrums.

I would predicate a reconciliation on you both working out your issues. You want someone to also take you into consideration as well. It will need to be a two-way street, otherwise, you would neglect yourself and you should have your own boundaries as well.


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## Satya

You both sound immature.

You should know better than to threaten divorce. It's not a threat to be taken lightly at all. Never threaten divorce unless you're willing to follow through with it. There are only so many times you can throw that threat out there as a fear tactic or a tactic to win an argument before you'll find (as you now know) it blows up in your face.

She is immature for not wanting to have adult discussions with you. Why do you think she would rather ignore you? Do you listen to her when she has something serious to discuss? Lack of effort when it comes to communication over serious matters says that there is a fundamental disconnect between the two of you and there is no respect for each other.

I'd suggest MC as soon as possible. Have a serious talk with her (if you're able to get her in contact with you again) and say that you want to work on repairing the damage that's been done. If she's also willing to work toward the same endeavor, that you both need to be open to MC.

MC isn't the magic solution, but it does give you a new environment for you both to share and get to the heart of what causes disagreement, and how to better and more calmly communicate effectively.

The personal issues are for each of you to tackle individually. You need to work on your emotions and she needs to work on her passive aggressiveness. With a child on the way, you both need to draw focus toward being solid, mature partners that can respect one another.


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## londonguy

I should had never let that word slip my mouth.

I do listen to her to be honest and do pay a lot of attention to her wishes but it's a bit one sided. When there's an argument, she won't back down and it usually comes to me stepping down. E.g. during that trip what I told her initially was sorry for starting an argument but we agreed that to go there I'll get the sleep I need first which is a part you found it's ok to skip. She wouldn't reconcile until I admitted guilty despite our agreement on me getting some sleep, after a whole day of arguing I mentioned divorce.

My tantrum three days ago was because she didn't take into consideration my input in a period when I'm under medication which causes tireness and by doctor's orders I need rest.

In one of the 30 sec calls (she hangs up after that), I meant to tell her I had a tantrum because I feel insecure when she neglects my needs and then I become angry but she hung up at "insecure". In another 30 sec call when I mentioned the antibiotic's side effects and my condition she said "you're not the only one in the world to have this" and she hang up.

I'm not saying it's ok to mention divorce because I had a reason to be angry but at the moment she's not interested at all into hearing the root cause.

I agree that this is something we need to work on as longer term goal but right it's me that did the major blow to our wedding by saying the word "divorce" 3 times in 3 months. I need to amend that first.

I think these tantrums have hurt her a lot and she lost trust in me because of it.

Before we start MC, we need to be in contact first and work towards this together. Right now she has lost all trust in me (I can't blame her to be honest) and won't even talk to me.

We need to talk first, need to build trust again. Then I'd be keen to do MC and anything it takes to amend. I'm very serious about this, she and the child are my number 1 priority.

What can I do to go back to talking terms and build trust again?



Satya said:


> You both sound immature.
> 
> You should know better than to threaten divorce. It's not a threat to be taken lightly at all. Never threaten divorce unless you're willing to follow through with it. There are only so many times you can throw that threat out there as a fear tactic or a tactic to win an argument before you'll find (as you now know) it blows up in your face.
> 
> She is immature for not wanting to have adult discussions with you. Why do you think she would rather ignore you? Do you listen to her when she has something serious to discuss? Lack of effort when it comes to communication over serious matters says that there is a fundamental disconnect between the two of you and there is no respect for each other.
> 
> I'd suggest MC as soon as possible. Have a serious talk with her (if you're able to get her in contact with you again) and say that you want to work on repairing the damage that's been done. If she's also willing to work toward the same endeavor, that you both need to be open to MC.
> 
> MC isn't the magic solution, but it does give you a new environment for you both to share and get to the heart of what causes disagreement, and how to better and more calmly communicate effectively.
> 
> The personal issues are for each of you to tackle individually. You need to work on your emotions and she needs to work on her passive aggressiveness. With a child on the way, you both need to draw focus toward being solid, mature partners that can respect one another.


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## londonguy

I'm not saying it's all my fault, in the bigger picture there's a lot she could improve on :smile2:.

However I was the one saying "divorce" on several occasions. While I had a reason (even a good one) to be angry, I did not handle the anger well and I went too far with asking for divorce. She needs a minimum level of security for this to work and even though I never mean it, saying "divorce" is very hurtful and I can understand why she lost trust.

I need to make the first move and begin amends. I feel it's not the best time to state boundaries where indeed there is a lot of work that needs to be done as you point out. This is a must-do second step, once we have rapport and she trusts me. To be honest I think she'd want to work on the relationship if we get there and do e.g. joint counselling.

If this were any other point in time, I'd go with your approach but it's me that just did a major blow to our wedding 3 days ago.



Mr.Fisty said:


> She needs to work on her own end to. She reacts like a child, throwing tantrums.
> 
> I would predicate a reconciliation on you both working out your issues. You want someone to also take you into consideration as well. It will need to be a two-way street, otherwise, you would neglect yourself and you should have your own boundaries as well.


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## Mr.Fisty

londonguy said:


> I'm not saying it's all my fault, in the bigger picture there's a lot she could improve on :smile2:.
> 
> However I was the one saying "divorce" on several occasions. While I had a reason (even a good one) to be angry, I did not handle the anger well and I went too far with asking for divorce. She needs a minimum level of security for this to work and even though I never mean it, saying "divorce" is very hurtful and I can understand why she lost trust.
> 
> I need to make the first move and begin amends. I feel it's not the best time to state boundaries where indeed there is a lot of work that needs to be done as you point out. This is a must-do second step, once we have rapport and she trusts me. To be honest I think she'd want to work on the relationship if we get there and do e.g. joint counselling.
> 
> If this were any other point in time, I'd go with your approach but it's me that just did a major blow to our wedding 3 days ago.



I think you both should at the same time. What happens if she responds poorly and mistreats you for something beyond your control? That is when you should enforce boundaries.

Also, do not go chasing after her, she has to want to work on things with you.

So, next time she does something that inconveniences you and starts tuning you out, how do you respond. By walking away and not engaging, that is enforcing boundaries.

Just a suggestion. In the end, you should do what you think is best.


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## Evinrude58

Your wife won't even speak to you but 30 seconds? She is showing you quite clearly who rules the roost. You have no hand in this relationship. It's likely to end, unless you straighten yourself out, stop tolerating bs behavior, and stop giving her all this power. If she doesn't want to reconcile this, you're screwed and need to accept it for your own good. If she doesn't want to, you don't need to try to reconcile.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

I was trying to set a boundary 3 days ago, letting my anger loose after our social obligation was over was a conscious decision.
As she went ahead and booked the social obligation without considering me, I didn't want to expose to other people that I was not ok with it so I went there and tried to set a boundary when we left, which went out of hand when I lost my temper... 

The thing is that she can be very subtle when she does things that I don't agree with. E.g. at that trip months ago (she was not pregnant then), to set a boundary, when I got tired I left the event alone after asking 2-3 times to leave together and left her there, to show that it takes two to tango but then she stopped answering calls and came back 4 am and she begun arguing because I left her alone in a foreign country (event was not at home) and what type of person am I. 

So to sum up, when I try to set a boundary, she'll let it devolve to the worst possible outcome and then put the blame on me. She's subtle and political when it comes to setting a boundary.

If I try to set a boundary now I think it will be disastrous.



Mr.Fisty said:


> I think you both should at the same time. What happens if she responds poorly and mistreats you for something beyond your control? That is when you should enforce boundaries.
> 
> Also, do not go chasing after her, she has to want to work on things with you.
> 
> So, next time she does something that inconveniences you and starts tuning you out, how do you respond. By walking away and not engaging, that is enforcing boundaries.
> 
> Just a suggestion. In the end, you should do what you think is best.


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## londonguy

This is where it started from, I felt it was bs behaviour to book something despite my wish to rest when I'm on medication that causes tireness and likely to go through an operation soon.

Nonetheless, I went way to far with it and asked for divorce, so she said she'll do exactly what I asked for and hangs up the phone or won't even pick it up. She was not like that with the phone 3 days ago.

I don't feel it's the best point in time to set a boundary, she needs to trust me and when I mentioned divorce I blew her trust.



Evinrude58 said:


> Your wife won't even speak to you but 30 seconds? She is showing you quite clearly who rules the roost. You have no hand in this relationship. It's likely to end, unless you straighten yourself out, stop tolerating bs behavior, and stop giving her all this power. If she doesn't want to reconcile this, you're screwed and need to accept it for your own good. If she doesn't want to, you don't need to try to reconcile.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

Why are you deeply in love with someone who doesn't consider you?

You have medical conditions and her social commitments are more important than you.

You need to pull back. Stick by your guns. Your declaration of wanting to divorce, though not the best choice, was your desparate plea for boundaries. Pull back hard.

Your boundaries are extremely important. She totally disrespects you. Time to fix it.

Oh and get the book Boundaries


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## Mr.Fisty

londonguy said:


> I was trying to set a boundary 3 days ago, letting my anger loose after our social obligation was over was a conscious decision.
> As she went ahead and booked the social obligation without considering me, I didn't want to expose to other people that I was not ok with it so I went there and tried to set a boundary when we left, which went out of hand when I lost my temper...
> 
> The thing is that she can be very subtle when she does things that I don't agree with. E.g. at that trip months ago (she was not pregnant then), to set a boundary, when I got tired I left the event alone after asking 2-3 times to leave together and left her there, to show that it takes two to tango but then she stopped answering calls and came back 4 am and she begun arguing because I left her alone in a foreign country (event was not at home) and what type of person am I.
> 
> So to sum up, when I try to set a boundary, she'll let it devolve to the worst possible outcome and then put the blame on me. She's subtle and political when it comes to setting a boundary.
> 
> If I try to set a boundary now I think it will be disastrous.



Actually, you should state, "I am tired, and I need to go and rest. If you want to stay, please do so, but as for myself, I am drained and rest would be healthy for me."

Even in arguements,, you can say, "We both are highly emotional at the period, do you mind if we talk about this at another time? We both can think about it and we can talk about it when we are both ready."

There is a point where you can enforce boundries before things escalate. You allow yourself to get to that critical point where your emotions control your actions.

Perhaps, you can learn to see the signs of escalation and defuse the situation.

But, listen to Blossom, her societal priorities came before your health. Right now, you have a drive to be with her and do you think because of your feelings at the moment, it is blocking your perspective?


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## londonguy

I don't have a rational explanation but I have an extremely strong attachment to her. Perhaps it's because she gave me a lot of love & tenderness when there weren't any boundaries issues. We had broken up 5 years ago for 2.5 years and these pretty much the worst years of my life. I did counselling and got my act together but could never bond with anyone I dated nor was I able to give affection to another woman. Perhaps it's just love, it feels nice when she's next to me.

During the reconnection I did set boundaries (not enough apparently). What is so different now? I do not want to set a boundary right now because I risk not being able raise my child and I'll be confining myself to a Saturday-dad role. Also it's my fault for mentioning divorce, I went way too far so it needs to be me who builds rapport and trust before anything else (boundaries, joint counselling).

Regarding medical conditions vs social commitments, this is what angered me so much. In the past I've always cancelled dinners because she wasn't feeling well and helped her get better. I did expect her to do the same, especially given that I'm taking strong medication.

I'll read the book !



Blossom Leigh said:


> Why are you deeply in love with someone who doesn't consider you?
> 
> You have medical conditions and her social commitments are more important than you.
> 
> You need to pull back. Stick by your guns. Your declaration of wanting to divorce, though not the best choice, was your desparate plea for boundaries. Pull back hard.
> 
> Your boundaries are extremely important. She totally disrespects you. Time to fix it.
> 
> Oh and get the book Boundaries


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## Mr.Fisty

Also, look up oneitis.


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## londonguy

Back during that trip abroad, this is what I told her, she told me that I'm the man in this relationship and I should stay and escort her back home because I'm not like 70 years old. I said I can't stay as I'm tired and I left (after an angry look for the 70 years old comment).

I wish I did what you suggest during arguments, I'll try to control myself more but I can get in an emotional roller coaster when we're arguing. I can do that with other people e.g. my father, my boss or pretty much anyone else but it's tough to keep my cool with my wife.

Re societal priorities over my health, it annoyed me a lot ... She even dismissed it. She said it happened during the trip as well when I wasn't on medication and even now I'm not 70 years old, other people have the same condition (nobody she knows or anyone who was at the social event but nevermind).

Still I was the one that blew things up... she wasn't being considerate but it was me who went too far and said to my (pregnant) wife that I want a divorce.

One thing I need to mention, besides the "I started it" argument is that I must not upset her during pregnancy, it can affect both her and the child. A negotiation on boundaries is perhaps better timed for the months after the birth.



Mr.Fisty said:


> Actually, you should state, "I am tired, and I need to go and rest. If you want to stay, please do so, but as for myself, I am drained and rest would be healthy for me."
> 
> Even in arguements,, you can say, "We both are highly emotional at the period, do you mind if we talk about this at another time? We both can think about it and we can talk about it when we are both ready."
> 
> There is a point where you can enforce boundries before things escalate. You allow yourself to get to that critical point where your emotions control your actions.
> 
> Perhaps, you can learn to see the signs of escalation and defuse the situation.
> 
> But, listen to Blossom, her societal priorities came before your health. Right now, you have a drive to be with her and do you think because of your feelings at the moment, it is blocking your perspective?


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## londonguy

It is somewhat familiar but not identical, e.g. when we were separated I had gone out in the market, with some rejections and some successes, some of the girls were pretty hot, well educated and affectionate. But I could not click with any of them and when it "went well" in the first dates and it came to coming over for dinner I cancelled the date because I felt some sort of disgust when I thought sex would likely follow.

I think even my counsellor was puzzled by this and my insistence to repair the relationship with my (then) ex.

I did completely cut contact with my (then) ex to give a fair chance to a couple of dates but still could not feel attachment (or even really horny to be honest, it took a lot of alcohol to snog/kiss) 



Mr.Fisty said:


> Also, look up oneitis.


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## lifeistooshort

Try to recognize that threatening divorce when you don't meant it is a way to manipulate and to gain the emotional upper hand.....a power play. The one who does this imagines the recipient, upon hearing it, will panic and kiss their arse to avoid said divorce.

As you've found out your bluff may be called. Furthermore, it is difficult to trust one that threatens divorce, especially when a guy does it his pregnant wife..... that's one of the most vulnerable times in a woman's life and if she can't trust her hb it is terrifying. You've set yourself up as a hb who can't be trusted and won't protect her and that's a great way to get a woman to detach. 

You need serious counseling to work on mutual communication so you don't feel the need to threaten divorce to manipulate her. And improved communication will benefit both of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

I should had never mentioned divorce, especially given that I don't want a divorce. It was the worse way possible of saying this has gone too far.

I'm more than willing to do counselling and anything it takes to amend this but what can I do till we get there? Before we get there we need to talk and I need to regain her trust.



lifeistooshort said:


> Try to recognize that threatening divorce when you don't meant it is a way to manipulate and to gain the emotional upper hand.....a power play. The one who does this imagines the recipient, upon hearing it, will panic and kiss their arse to avoid said divorce.
> 
> As you've found out your bluff may be called. Furthermore, it is difficult to trust one that threatens divorce, especially when a guy does it his pregnant wife..... that's one of the most vulnerable times in a woman's life and if she can't trust her hb it is terrifying. You've set yourself up as a hb who can't be trusted and won't protect her and that's a great way to get a woman to detach.
> 
> You need serious counseling to work on mutual communication so you don't feel the need to threaten divorce to manipulate her. And improved communication will benefit both of you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

You guys are out of balance and yes, you need to learn to speak sooner than later in a way that is calm assertive if she balks. speaking calmly sooner....

There is no "bad time" for boundaries. They are what maintains balance.


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## londonguy

We talked today, I told her the steps I plan to take to regain her trust and that I'm very serious about this, she listened to me without hanging up and said she will think about it.

When/if things hopefully get better I will definitely go on with MC, right now I'm still very worried if she'll do the next step, communicate again & let me regain her trust.


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## Blossom Leigh

What is she going to do to regain trust?


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## Evinrude58

This one-sided thing will not work. If you do to figure out what is causing this-/- I suspect I know....
You will be in the same shape, even if she chooses to reconcile.

Questions: 
Does your wife appear to TRY to see your point of view in an arguement?
Does she ever say she is sorry when she is clearly in the wrong?
Do you feel like you are not being heard? I.e. She is not willing to accept a logical explanation for problems that occur? 

Telling your wife you want a divorce has got to stop. That obviously has caused her to lose her feelings for you. If she had any left, you'd better show her some honest changes in how you handle your temper and arguements. If you go back to temper outbursts, her negative feelings will all come rushing back at once.

The good: she talked to you. 

The bad: you are going to look for reassurance by calling her again.
DONT do that!!!!
Force yourself! Let her call you. When she does, show her some empathy for what she is feeling. Don't try to straighten her out on her end yet. You can help her until you've helped yourself!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

Well, she's the one who doesn't trust me after mentioning divorce so she's not planning anything.

The only improvement over the previous days is that she didn't hang up the phone, she let me talk for 10 mins and said she'll think about it.



Blossom Leigh said:


> What is she going to do to regain trust?


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## londonguy

Answers:
- Sometimes she tries, but in many important things she does not
- She (very) rarely says she's sorry if she's clearly wrong, she'll usually dismiss the significance of an action she took
- I do feel like I'm not being heard

I won't mention a divorce ever again if she chooses to reconcile, there are other ways to say I don't like something she did.

I called her once more this evening, she didn't pick it up and I left it at that, I'll let her contact me (hopefully...).




Evinrude58 said:


> This one-sided thing will not work. If you do to figure out what is causing this-/- I suspect I know....
> You will be in the same shape, even if she chooses to reconcile.
> 
> Questions:
> Does your wife appear to TRY to see your point of view in an arguement?
> Does she ever say she is sorry when she is clearly in the wrong?
> Do you feel like you are not being heard? I.e. She is not willing to accept a logical explanation for problems that occur?
> 
> Telling your wife you want a divorce has got to stop. That obviously has caused her to lose her feelings for you. If she had any left, you'd better show her some honest changes in how you handle your temper and arguements. If you go back to temper outbursts, her negative feelings will all come rushing back at once.
> 
> The good: she talked to you.
> 
> The bad: you are going to look for reassurance by calling her again.
> DONT do that!!!!
> Force yourself! Let her call you. When she does, show her some empathy for what she is feeling. Don't try to straighten her out on her end yet. You can help her until you've helped yourself!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

Oh boy... This rebalancing this relationship is going to be a long road for you. What resources do you plan to study?


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## londonguy

This is definitely going to be the case, I know but sometimes long roads may be worth it to be with the woman I love and raise my child.

I had taken negotiation courses and my job requires a lot of negotiation & team building so I have experience in setting boundaries but this is in a work environment/business. The problem is when I apply "professional" negotiation techniques to set boundaries she's the one that has a tantrum .. so I decided to keep that bag of techniques out of the relationship. 

I really don't have an answer on how I'll approach this if we we there but lets see if we get there first, at this point I don't have a clue if she'll trust me again & want to reconcile..

I've already bought the kindle version of the boundaries book though :smile2: . Any further hints on resources?



Blossom Leigh said:


> Oh boy... This rebalancing this relationship is going to be a long road for you. What resources do you plan to study?


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## Blossom Leigh

Her hissy fits belong to her. You have to let her own that. Stand your ground, quietly beat your truth drum, but by god beat it or this relationships' days are numbered.

Codependent No More
Boundaries

Are great places(books) to start. Its great you have a head start in boundaries and negotiation. That will serve you in spades as soon as you get your fear of abandonment under control. Its your achillies heel, she knows it and uses it against you. Its why you react and manage her the way you do. 

Give ACOA a consideration as well.


She absolutely has responsibility in this relationship not to use her emotions like weapons. Don't forget that as you move forward. It just may take her a while to realize it. Marriage counseling with a counselor well versed in boundaries would help speed that process up... IF your wife is willing.


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## happy as a clam

Unless she is a high-risk pregnancy, pregnancy is not a handicap or a disability. No need to wear kid gloves around her and no need to postpone reasonable boundaries for 5 more months. She'll just run further ramshod over you.

Speak up for yourself and take action now.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58

I find it odd that this woman is pregnant with your baby and acts like she'd rather you just hit the road. If you can't man up and not let this woman drive you like a cheap truck, I'd think about letting her go. You are probably not wise to have children with a person you're not getting along great with...

She is really treating you like your not the only person in her life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

When we argue, she gets mild fever, this can be dangerous for the kid.

Any discussion that may upset her (such as setting boundaries) will need to be postponed after the birth. I'm not willing to risk even a 0.01% chance that something happens to the child. This is #1 priority.




happy as a clam said:


> Unless she is a high-risk pregnancy, pregnancy is not a handicap or a disability. No need to wear kid gloves around her and no need to postpone reasonable boundaries for 5 more months. She'll just run further ramshod over you.
> 
> Speak up for yourself and take action now.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happy as a clam

londonguy said:


> When we argue, she gets mild fever, this can be dangerous for the kid.
> 
> Any discussion that may upset her (such as setting boundaries) will need to be postponed after the birth. I'm not willing to risk even a 0.01% chance that something happens to the child. This is #1 priority.


A fever? From arguing? Well that's a new one to me. 

Have you actually taken her temperature or are you relying on what she's telling you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

She does get mild fever when she's upset (eg because we argued or for other reasons) it's not some sort of trick. Even if she didn't get a fever, a pregnant woman should not get upset.



happy as a clam said:


> A fever? From arguing? Well that's a new one to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58

Londonguy,

What is going on here with you and your wife? 
A mild fever? That's laughable.

Either she's sick or she's not. Certainly you don't want to have a big huge arguement when she's pregnant. Nobody is asking you to. Just be straightforward and do to accept any bullying by your wife and be good to her. If treating her good, but standing your ground when you know you're in the right is a bad thing, you need to get out of this relationship. Just be plain, no need to lose your temper or argue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

In her defence, I was the one who mentioned divorce. She may have flaws regarding boundaries and listening but it was me mentioning divorce that created this situation.

I agree with everything about boundaries but right now she's giving what I "asked" for. It was a mistake to mention divorce out of spite but I did it and now I'm facing the consequences.

I don't have any reason to suspect there is another person in her life, I'm certain there isn't somebody else.



Evinrude58 said:


> I find it odd that this woman is pregnant with your baby and acts like she'd rather you just hit the road. If you can't man up and not let this woman drive you like a cheap truck, I'd think about letting her go. You are probably not wise to have children with a person you're not getting along great with...
> 
> She is really treating you like your not the only person in her life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

By mild fever I mean 37.4 - 37.6, this is not a good thing and I don't want it to happen during pregnancy. Even a tiny chance of something happening is not worth it.

When I am firm about something, she will argue. One thing to consider, is that a pregnant woman has her hormones all over the place. I want to negotiate on boundaries but only when the pregnancy is over.



Evinrude58 said:


> Londonguy,
> 
> What is going on here with you and your wife?
> A mild fever? That's laughable.
> 
> Either she's sick or she's not. Certainly you don't want to have a big huge arguement when she's pregnant. Nobody is asking you to. Just be straightforward and do to accept any bullying by your wife and be good to her. If treating her good, but standing your ground when you know you're in the right is a bad thing, you need to get out of this relationship. Just be plain, no need to lose your temper or argue.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

I'm more than happy to discuss boundaries with her and a marital counsellor, I think it would be good and in this environment she may be more willing to work together.

We're far from going being there though, right now I don't even have a verdict on whether she wants to reconcile.

What is ACOA?

To be honest this is my main complaint, that whenever we are to discuss something important to both, she does use the fear of abandonment card.



Blossom Leigh said:


> Her hissy fits belong to her. You have to let her own that. Stand your ground, quietly beat your truth drum, but by god beat it or this relationships' days are numbered.
> 
> Codependent No More
> Boundaries
> 
> Are great places(books) to start. Its great you have a head start in boundaries and negotiation. That will serve you in spades as soon as you get your fear of abandonment under control. Its your achillies heel, she knows it and uses it against you. Its why you react and manage her the way you do.
> 
> Give ACOA a consideration as well.
> 
> 
> She absolutely has responsibility in this relationship not to use her emotions like weapons. Don't forget that as you move forward. It just may take her a while to realize it. Marriage counseling with a counselor well versed in boundaries would help speed that process up... IF your wife is willing.


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## jld

You were the one who mentioned divorce, right? How was she threatening abandonment? Iirc, she just accepted your threat.

My husband has never said the word divorce to me, never called me a name, never sworn at me. All those things would break my trust in him. 

Here is a link you might want to read:

Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Duguesclin

OP, reading this thread I get the sense that your wife is coming last in your priorities and this is what she is probably feeling. 

Work seems to come first. I doubt you complain at work that you are tired. Work probably gets the best from you.

Second is your soon to be child. Your wife only matters because she is carrying him/her.

It does not matter what she may have done wrong or right, what matters is what you should do. If you care about your wife, act like it.

I think this boundaries talk is a waste of time. Just look at the damage you have done and fix it.


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## londonguy

Threat of abandonment comes (from her) when we negotiate boundaries but the current situation is 100% my fault, I was the one who mentioned divorce.




jld said:


> You were the one who mentioned divorce, right? How was she threatening abandonment? Iirc, she just accepted your threat.
> 
> My husband has never said the word divorce to me, never called me a name, never sworn at me. All those things would break my trust in him.
> 
> Here is a link you might want to read:
> 
> Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

londonguy said:


> Threat of abandonment comes (from her) when we negotiate boundaries but the current situation is 100% my fault, I was the one who mentioned divorce.


How exactly does she threaten you?

Did you read that link?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

Actually this is not true at all, I leave work at a fixed time every day, no matter what so that we have time in the evenings and when I saw the doctor before the holidays I took days off work sick to mitigate as much of the condition I could before we had time together.

And no my wife does not matter only because she's carrying my child.

What I'm trying to do, fix the current situation, any discussion on boundaries will happen after the birth.



Duguesclin said:


> OP, reading this thread I get the sense that your wife is coming last in your priorities and this is what she is probably feeling.
> 
> Work seems to come first. I doubt you complain at work that you are tired. Work probably gets the best from you.
> 
> Second is your soon to be child. Your wife only matters because she is carrying him/her.
> 
> It does not matter what she may have done wrong or right, what matters is what you should do. If you care about your wife, act like it.
> 
> I think this boundaries talk is a waste of time. Just look at the damage you have done and fix it.


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## londonguy

I read the link yesterday as I found it via another thread

One example, when we disagree it often comes to: she can't see why she should be with a husband that didn't want to do/provide/agree to "demand" because she deserves the best, she needs to be with someone who can do/provide/agree to the best and she married me because she thought I'd be that person. I see this as some sort of implicit reminder.

Nonetheless, it was me who went too far this 5 days ago when I mentioned divorce



jld said:


> How exactly does she threaten you?
> 
> Did you read that link?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

Huh. If I didn't know any better, I would say your wife is a selfish twit. Your threat of divorce was inappropriate, sure. 

But I would tell you that the more you cater to her, the bigger sense of entitlement you will build within her.

Yes, you owe the pot for your threat. But that is not a license to treat you the way she has both before and after this threat of yours.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

londonguy said:


> I read the link yesterday as I found it via another thread
> 
> One example, when we disagree it often comes to: *she can't see why she should be with a husband that didn't want to do/provide/agree to "demand" because she deserves the best*, she needs to be with someone who can do/provide/agree to the best and she married me because she thought I'd be that person. I see this as some sort of implicit reminder.
> 
> Nonetheless, it was me who went too far this 5 days ago when I mentioned divorce


Not sure if I am following the bolded.

You should always do the right thing, not only regarding your wife, but in general. That should inspire her trust. It will earn everyone's respect.

Threatening divorce is weak. Women want to be able to count on men. The fact that you did it during her pregnancy is reasonable grounds for her to take you at your word and move forward looking out for just herself and the baby. She knows she can count on herself to take care of the baby. In comparison, you look like a wild card.

Read that link every day. Write that letter. Humble yourself and earn her trust. Like you said, you do not want to be just a weekend father.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Not sure if I am following the bolded.
> 
> You should always do the right thing, not only regarding your wife, but in general. That should inspire her trust. It will earn everyone's respect.
> 
> Threatening divorce is weak.


Not if it is done once, and only once. Along the same lines, it must not be empty.

If it meets that criteria, it is not weak at all. Just like children...let them know the consequences of their actions once, and only once.


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Not if it is done once, and only once. Along the same lines, it must not be empty.
> 
> If it meets that criteria, it is not weak at all. Just like children...let them know the consequences of their actions once, and only once.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I am certainly not going to threaten my children with abandonment, far.

You only bring up divorce if you think you cannot meet her needs. You have to have tried everything. 

If, after all that, you still do not think you are the best man for her, you tell her you need to let her go. Because you want the best for her, you release her (divorce) so another man, who can meet her needs, can find her and do so.


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## farsidejunky

Sounds like the same outcome.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

Mine is not a threat.


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## Adelais

I read your thread, but still haven't figured out why you went all the way to threatening D just because she was being selfish and you were tired when you really didn't mean it.

If she were this way all the time (and it sounds like she is) it would be understandable that you would get tired of it, and decide to end the relationship.

What is puzzling to me is that you said it without meaning it. My first husband used to get angry and tell me that he wanted a D. At the time I didn't realize he was just being mean and manipulative. He even went so far twice to say say he was going to the lawyer's and left the home for a few hours. At the time I also lived in a foreign country at the time. I would feel abandoned and frightened whenever he would do that. I cried in desperation more than once, and was relieved when he came back and apologized.

But one day he said it one time too many. I did not take him back when he came back saying he was sorry. He was shocked. I told him I wanted a D, and followed through with it, and that was one of the best decisions I had made for a long time.

If your wife comes back to you, you had better make sure that word never comes out of your mouth again, unless you really want to follow through.

Instead of lashing out with the D word, learn to express what you are really feeling, before you are thoroughly exasperated and worn out. Talking will get you far. She needs to do some growing up as well, but she is going to have to be willing to do that herself.

The both of you need to do some counseling to learn how to communicate better, and respect each other's boundaries.


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## Blossom Leigh

I'll add one more book to your list... Emotional Blackmail. It describes the dynamic of anyone using fear, obligation or guilt to emotionally control someone else and how to break that cycle.

ACOA is Adult Children of Alcoholics

Adult Children of Alcoholics


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## Blossom Leigh

Also, I think waiting to talk boundaries is ok. Think long range, get educated on destructive behaviors, formulate your plan to change the tide in your relationship and address it when timing is better. I've bided my time before. Nothing wrong with it.


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## Spotthedeaddog

jld said:


> Not sure if I am following the bolded.
> 
> You should always do the right thing, not only regarding your wife, but in general. That should inspire her trust. It will earn everyone's respect.
> 
> Threatening divorce is weak. Women want to be able to count on men. The fact that you did it during her pregnancy is reasonable grounds for her to take you at your word and move forward looking out for just herself and the baby. She knows she can count on herself to take care of the baby. In comparison, you look like a wild card.
> 
> Read that link every day. Write that letter. Humble yourself and earn her trust. Like you said, you do not want to be just a weekend father.


Count on them for what?

I'm a human being. I like the things I like.
You want a machine go buy one - see if it does what you want...
And if you want formula one guaranteed performance you better be willing to fork out the whole cost, including the support personnel.

sounds more like he should move on too, push for as much day-to-day care as his career and new caring supportive wife will accept.


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## Spotthedeaddog

Evinrude58 said:


> I find it odd that this woman is pregnant with your baby and acts like she'd rather you just hit the road. If you can't man up and not let this woman drive you like a cheap truck, I'd think about letting her go. You are probably not wise to have children with a person you're not getting along great with...
> 
> She is really treating you like your not the only person in her life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


sounds like she's seeing just how much mileage she can get out of having baby


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## Spotthedeaddog

londonguy said:


> I should had never let that word slip my mouth.
> I do listen to her to be honest and do pay a lot of attention to her wishes but it's a bit one sided. When there's an argument, she won't back down and it usually comes to me stepping down.
> ....snippage...
> What can I do to go back to talking terms and build trust again?


Damn this sounds so familiar.
(1) Get the divorce.
(2) She's a self-centered b-tc. that doesn't actually care about you.

she got what she wanted, so now you'll be spending the rest of your life apologizing and crawling on your belly to get anything.

what have you got to bargain with? nothing and you've already proved it.

time to start living on your own and for yourself. Take my word for it, that kind of communication... she's got no interest in relationship, you, or anything to do with you.
so quit while you're ahead and be thankful you found out so soon into the marriage and didn't waste years of your life buying attention or struggling wondering why you always seemed to be the one holding together the relationship.

Sad that there's already a child in the mix, so you'll have to put the child's needs ahead of your own - but at least you can step out of the marriage and fight for it as an equal...something you'll never get in your "marriage"


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## londonguy

Given that I mentioned divorce in a period where she's pregnant, I think I'm entirely responsible for the current situation. 

Indeed there are things that need work and she also needs to improve but right now I may have delivered a knockout blow to our marriage and our family.



farsidejunky said:


> Huh. If I didn't know any better, I would say your wife is a selfish twit. Your threat of divorce was inappropriate, sure.
> 
> But I would tell you that the more you cater to her, the bigger sense of entitlement you will build within her.
> 
> Yes, you owe the pot for your threat. But that is not a license to treat you the way she has both before and after this threat of yours.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## londonguy

Haven't heard anything from her. She must have completely lost trust, I don't think she'll call or communicate


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## londonguy

If she chooses to come back, she won't hear the D-word ever again, it was foolish of me to do that



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I read your thread, but still haven't figured out why you went all the way to threatening D just because she was being selfish and you were tired when you really didn't mean it.
> 
> If she were this way all the time (and it sounds like she is) it would be understandable that you would get tired of it, and decide to end the relationship.
> 
> What is puzzling to me is that you said it without meaning it. My first husband used to get angry and tell me that he wanted a D. At the time I didn't realize he was just being mean and manipulative. He even went so far twice to say say he was going to the lawyer's and left the home for a few hours. At the time I also lived in a foreign country at the time. I would feel abandoned and frightened whenever he would do that. I cried in desperation more than once, and was relieved when he came back and apologized.
> 
> But one day he said it one time too many. I did not take him back when he came back saying he was sorry. He was shocked. I told him I wanted a D, and followed through with it, and that was one of the best decisions I had made for a long time.
> 
> If your wife comes back to you, you had better make sure that word never comes out of your mouth again, unless you really want to follow through.
> 
> Instead of lashing out with the D word, learn to express what you are really feeling, before you are thoroughly exasperated and worn out. Talking will get you far. She needs to do some growing up as well, but she is going to have to be willing to do that herself.
> 
> The both of you need to do some counseling to learn how to communicate better, and respect each other's boundaries.


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## londonguy

I have already done something along the lines of the link you provided (link gave me the idea tbh). I texted her 2 days ago saying that her trust is very valuable, she and the child are my top priority, I will take steps to earn that trust back, she asked for the steps and I asked her to speak over the phone as it is more personal, yesterday we talked for 10 mins over the phone.

When we talked, I took full responsibility for things being the way they are as I shouldn't have hurt her by mentioning D. I also said that regaining the trust that I shattered is what I want to do. I told her the steps I'll take for this to never happen again and asked her to let me regain her trust. Call lasted 10 mins, first time she let me talk in days.

To put more context in the bold part, demands tend to be financially demanding, it's not about who takes out the garbage. I think if we go on like this we'll never buy a house nor will we have a safety net, she likes to spend exactly at full capacity (or even above capacity from time to time), we both have very good jobs and we should be saving for a house and investing not spending our income on things we do not need. I like a good time too and shiny stuff but I can't see why e.g. 3 (very) expensive presents per year are a priority at this point, I don't think this is the "best" to be honest. I find the bold part a dismissive reply to a serious matter that deserves a proper discussion. To be honest I never raised similar financial demands, because if at the end of the day girls like diamonds and boys like cars, we'd both be filling for bankruptcy now. But again this is more long term and not much correlated to the current situation.



jld said:


> Not sure if I am following the bolded.
> 
> You should always do the right thing, not only regarding your wife, but in general. That should inspire her trust. It will earn everyone's respect.
> 
> Threatening divorce is weak. Women want to be able to count on men. The fact that you did it during her pregnancy is reasonable grounds for her to take you at your word and move forward looking out for just herself and the baby. She knows she can count on herself to take care of the baby. In comparison, you look like a wild card.
> 
> Read that link every day. Write that letter. Humble yourself and earn her trust. Like you said, you do not want to be just a weekend father.


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## jld

You are absolutely right to insist on financial discipline. I would not trust a man who did not handle money in a reasonable manner. It is in her best interests to accept to hear No to unnecessary financial requests.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

I'll do that after the birth, I think it's very important but not for right now. Right now I don't know if we'll even get there, I have pushed her away and she said she lost the trust she had.



Blossom Leigh said:


> Also, I think waiting to talk boundaries is ok. Think long range, get educated on destructive behaviors, formulate your plan to change the tide in your relationship and address it when timing is better. I've bided my time before. Nothing wrong with it.


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## jld

londonguy said:


> I'll do that after the birth, I think it's very important but not for right now. Right now I don't know if we'll even get there, I have pushed her away and she said she lost the trust she had.


Financial sobriety needs to be non-negotiable. 

My opinion, anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

At the moment there is none and to be honest polo shirts and expensive watches are at the bottom of my list. When I mention that this money takes that long to make with work, is it worth to work eg one month just to get this? or that we should have a safety net, buy a house and invest, she'll go like we'll get promotions like XYZ did (ignoring all the others that never got there or even lost their jobs) and we can do it without lowering life quality.

To give a bit of background, my job is well paying and e.g. I got her a very nice engagement ring and I do like a fancy restaurant from time to time but there needs to be a reasonable budget set in advance for these type of things.
I'm not a millionaire and I simply can't afford to spend like one. I find it ridiculous to have financial stress (and I have loads of it) when at the same time my income is like 3.5x UK average. If we lose our jobs tomorrow we're both toast and I'd have to sell assets, I just find this too stessful and a completely unreasonable situation to be in.

In 5 years time we can easily have a safety net AND a nice house AND have gone out plenty AND provide the best education to our child. Right now the way we are heading in 5 years we'll have nada and be in a very risky situation (instead we'll have plenty of shiny things and many visits at expensive resorts).

If I stand firm, she'll call me a cheapass, say she deserves the best and then the bold part follows. In this context, I do take it that she is playing with fear. Which is why I took it as a threat when she dismissed that I needed to stay in to recover when she said that if I say this it means I don't want a joint social life.

Mentioning divorce was a big mistake, if she wants to reconcile, I'll never mention it again and we can work on this together and set boundaries on important things after the child is born. But I did have legit reasons to be angry.



jld said:


> You are absolutely right to insist on financial discipline. I would not trust a man who did not handle money in a reasonable manner. It is in her best interests to accept to hear No to unnecessary financial requests.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

I agree 100%



jld said:


> Financial sobriety needs to be non-negotiable.
> 
> My opinion, anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

I am serious about financial sobriety. I would be willing to divorce over it.

"Cheap ass" could be considered a badge of honor. 

I don't get the obsession with jewelry some women have. I don't understand why men indulge it, either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Ok, going to go a bit further. I would sit down and tell her that as a family man you cannot risk your health by staying out late and not getting enough sleep. You also do not feel comfortable having her out alone. You are willing to negotiate a little, but not to compromise her health.

Same story on finances. Family needs come first. Expensive luxuries are the first to go, and not priorities for family people like the two of you. Stress the best interests of your child. You two simply cannot think only of yourselves anymore. The family welfare comes first.

Is this a beautiful, spoiled girl you married?
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

Regarding negotiating that night out, I did it, I explicitly said that I don't want to go out that night because the doctor said to get rest, she just went ahead and booked it for both of us without my consent. I had mentioned I want to go together but when I'm better.
She dismissed that I need recovery and rest, said I act like I'm 70 and said it was impossible not to arrange the social obligation. I was seriously exhausted, the antibiotics I take are strong and their side effects are tireness & nausea.

Truth be told though, while I did get mad at her for what I believe to be a good reason, I went way too far with it. It's one thing to argue, which is something normal when there are differences, and another to ask for divorce when arguing which is something that may have well destroyed the relationship.

When I try to talk finances, she defers it till infinity (all the excuses some women say to avoid sex, I hear them regarding discussing family finances) and when we finally sit down to talk it's "cheapass" + the part in bold. She's not a gold-digger by the way, she was with me when I was on a graduate scholarship, back then I was making nothing, just (very) irresponsible financially.

If we reconcile, I'll mention the child too, my guess is that she'll agree to save just a fraction, e.g. 50%, of what's needed for education (not for house or safety net) but lets hope for the best.

She has model looks and she's quite spoilt too :grin2:



jld said:


> Ok, going to go a bit further. I would sit down and tell her that as a family man you cannot risk your health by staying out late and not getting enough sleep. You also do not feel comfortable having her out alone. You are willing to negotiate a little, but not to compromise her health.
> 
> Same story on finances. Family needs come first. Expensive luxuries are the first to go, and not priorities for family people like the two of you. Stress the best interests of your child. You two simply cannot think only of yourselves anymore. The family welfare comes first.
> 
> Is this a beautiful, spoiled girl you married?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Ok, you knew what you were getting into then. Best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

In my view cheapasses are those people who don't plan and because of this they end up being beggars to their friends and family when their career is over, not those who plan & save. 

I consider it extremely important and I have told her I didn't sign up for this and I do not intend to live like this. I know plenty of ex-executives who used to wear luxury watches and drive sport cars who are now bankrupt and got no income. I do not intend to become like this, especially given that I'm well aware of this danger and I don't drink the "this is perpetual" coolaid.

The jewelry obsession is beyond me, it's a status symbol and I find it a silly to play the game "look I can dress like a millionaire"



jld said:


> I am serious about financial sobriety. I would be willing to divorce over it.
> 
> "Cheap ass" could be considered a badge of honor.
> 
> I don't get the obsession with jewelry some women have. I don't understand why men indulge it, either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

The financial bit yes but she had promised before the wedding that it won't be like that when she's got a family. The bit about dismissing need for recovery to attend something social, I didn't expect.



jld said:


> Ok, you knew what you were getting into then. Best of luck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

If she looks like a model, a wealthier man will give her what she wants. She probably realizes this.

Again, good luck with all this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

londonguy said:


> The financial bit yes but she had promised before the wedding that it won't be like that when she's got a family. The bit about dismissing need for recovery to attend something social, I didn't expect.


The best clue to a person's future behavior is often their past.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lila

@londonguy many people have suggested marriage counseling to which you responded that you'll consider as soon as your wife agrees to it. DON'T WAIT. Go ahead and start marriage counseling on your own. Start learning those important communication skills necessary in to a successful relationship. Show your wife through your actions that you are serious about change. 

Look, you can only control your own behavior. You need to make the changes genuinely, meaning take action to become a better man for you, not to please others. Think about it like this. ..if your wife were not in the picture, what actions would you be taking to make yourself a better man?


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## londonguy

Contacted a counsellor 2 days ago about starting sessions in ~10 days. I do mean what I said to her, that I'll work on it and she'll never hear the word divorce again.



Lila said:


> @londonguy many people have suggested marriage counseling to which you responded that you'll consider as soon as your wife agrees to it. DON'T WAIT. Go ahead and start marriage counseling on your own. Start learning those important communication skills necessary in to a successful relationship. Show your wife through your actions that you are serious about change.
> 
> Look, you can only control your own behavior. You need to make the changes genuinely, meaning take action to become a better man for you, not to please others. Think about it like this. ..if your wife were not in the picture, what actions would you be taking to make yourself a better man?


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## Blossom Leigh

Yes, I think it is brilliant to go ahead and work on yourself in counseling for a while first, then bring her along later. 

Your wife is lost in priorities.

You are lost in boundaries for the time being.

Perfect set up for conflict because she will take her emotional weapons to run rough shod (destructive) over your non existing boundaries at the expense of your health. So, yes, you have very legitimate cause for anger at her dismissal of you, regardless of your learning curve to the contrary, AND this DOES need rebalancing BECAUSE of your health. Its good you are waking up. Change can happen. You do not have to accept destructive choices of behavior in her or yourself. You both can choose constructive behavior. It just sounds like its going to be you first, then her (if she is willing and posseses the capacity) and thats ok, nothing wrong with that. That's leadership.

It is good that you recognize the need to separate your need for health as right but the choice to threaten divorce as the wrong way to express that. You are already leaps and bounds ahead of MANY people in your shoes because of your ability to make that distinction. You are also being thoughtful about timing. I think you are going to progress well. I hope your wife's priorities realign to protect the heath and wellbeing of all of you and not continue down the self destructive selfish path she is currently on.

You could end up defining character flaws in her through this process. She can choose to address those. I hope she does. You have already started on yours. Great work. Partnering with the right professionals will only strengthen your efforts. Happy for you even though its painful... Been there done that in spades.


----------



## farsidejunky

londonguy said:


> In my view cheapasses are those people who don't plan and because of this they end up being beggars to their friends and family when their career is over, not those who plan & save.
> 
> I consider it extremely important and I have told her I didn't sign up for this and I do not intend to live like this. I know plenty of ex-executives who used to wear luxury watches and drive sport cars who are now bankrupt and got no income. I do not intend to become like this, especially given that I'm well aware of this danger and I don't drink the "this is perpetual" coolaid.
> 
> The jewelry obsession is beyond me, it's a status symbol and I find it a silly to play the game "look I can dress like a millionaire"


Then this is non negotiable. 

If it is that important to you, why are you not making it non negotiable?

Oh, because your immature wife, who you threatened with divorce once, is making a total power play in your relationship.

Stop contacting her. Stop emailing her. Stop texting her. She only has the power over you that you give her. 

Someone who is shallow and high maintenance is EASILY replaceable.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

Far, he threatened it more than once.

But I agree that he made a risky choice. And he is paying for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

Her uppance is coming... She is also making choices that will cost her.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Far, he threatened it more than once.
> 
> But I agree that he made a risky choice. And he is paying for it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And he sucks for it.

Her reaction and her attitude are perfect for arm candy or a mistress, but terrible for a wife.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Evinrude58

I am thinking that his wife was looking for an excuse to divorce and enjoyed telling him she wanted it. Otherwise she would want to talk it over with him and come home. She's getting advice from others I suspect.

She will divorce him, take his paycheck with the new baby, and move on to the next sugardaddy. 

I could be wrong, but the person he is describing (materialistic, self-centered, controlling, etc) does not sound like a person that is going to be a good one to trust ad start a family with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

If she leaves you, let her go. You were in over your head. Be a good dad in whatever capacity you can.

Make a wiser choice next time around, if it comes to that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I wouldn't write this relationship off so fast. We have yet to see how she reacts fully when her priorities are tested. It is amazing the changes that happen when people are faced with raw reality. Not to mention we do not have a full picture of her level of self awareness. Plus this is the mother of his child and the love of his life. Though he made a poor choice in managing extreme boundary frustration, I do not get the impression he is willing to say "oh, well, f*** it" and walk out. I can tell he's going to do the homework on these issues whether they stay together or not.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I wouldn't write this relationship off so fast. We have yet to see how she reacts fully when her priorities are tested. It is amazing the changes that happen when people are faced with raw reality. Not to mention we do not have a full picture of her level of self awareness.


I would like to see him set a financial limit, that's for sure. And no more divorce threats. Nurturing her and earning her trust by displaying good character is important, too.

But a materialistic person is hard to satisfy. I really am concerned he is in over his head. I want him to have realistic expectations.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I would like to see him set a financial limit, that's for sure. And no more divorce threats. Nurturing her and earning her trust by displaying good character is important, too.
> 
> But a materialistic person is hard to satisfy. I really am concerned he is in over his head. I want him to have realistic expectations.


Agree with all except "in over his head."

He's got this. He just needs that relational perspective that rights the ship. He's working on that piece. And yes, it is a blend of nurture and structure.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Agree with all except "in over his head."
> 
> He's got this. He just needs that relational perspective that rights the ship. He's working on that piece. And yes, it is a blend of nurture and structure.


Let's see.


----------



## Evinrude58

When someone wants to walk away from a marriage, it's something that's been on their minds for a while. She knew he didn't mean it when he said he wanted a divorce; even though it's a horrible, stupid thing to say (the op knows this). This has been stewing for a while with her.

She will hardly talk to him and is cold as a cucumber toward him. 

Something is going on in her mind that he doesn't know about. 
And I think it stems from her selfish, materialistic attitude. He might look on the guest list of this social event... Why was it so darned important? Who was there?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Evinrude58 said:


> When someone wants to walk away from a marriage, it's something that's been on their minds for a while. She knew he didn't mean it when he said he wanted a divorce; even though it's a horrible, stupid thing to say (the op knows this). This has been stewing for a while with her.
> 
> She will hardly talk to him and is cold as a cucumber toward him.
> 
> Something is going on in her mind that he doesn't know about.
> And I think it stems from her selfish, materialistic attitude. He might look on the guest list of this social event... Why was it so darned important? Who was there?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OP, are you by chance from an ethnic or cultural group where money and status are particularly important?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Evinrude58 said:


> When someone wants to walk away from a marriage, it's something that's been on their minds for a while. She knew he didn't mean it when he said he wanted a divorce; even though it's a horrible, stupid thing to say (the op knows this). This has been stewing for a while with her.
> 
> She will hardly talk to him and is cold as a cucumber toward him.
> 
> Something is going on in her mind that he doesn't know about.
> And I think it stems from her selfish, materialistic attitude. He might look on the guest list of this social event... Why was it so darned important? Who was there?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Relevant questions and part of his homework.


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## Adelais

Op, if you are from a culture that values material things more for their status than usefulness, you are going to have a difficult time managing your finances, much less get your wife to go along with you.

I would suggest that you purchase a program to help you prioritize needs, what needs to be paid no matter what to help you determine how much excess money you actually have. Once you know that, you can divide up the excess money into categories of your chosing: saving for house, children's education, retirement, monthly spending on luxuries/eating out/ "mad money." Each of you should have an agreed upon amount of $ that you are allowed to spend on whatever you want, but no more.

Below I have posted a link to something that can help you and your wife get on the same page regarding finances.

Dave Ramsey's Online Store - daveramsey.com

"Financial Peace University Home Study Kit" $139

It will change your and your wife's marriage, and your lives.


----------



## londonguy

Yes, this is the case, we both are and I realise this makes it harder for her to have some financial discipline. However, if something does not change, we'll be in trouble down the road and it's a shame, we both have good jobs.



jld said:


> OP, are you by chance from an ethnic or cultural group where money and status are particularly important?


----------



## londonguy

We talked briefly yesterday, she asked me to continue the chat an hour later because she was eating, I called her, she didn't pick up. Sent a text, she replied she didn't pick it up because she has nothing to say and then she send another one along the lines of: ok you're doing steps indeed but what if the counsellor cannot help?

I don't know if she's in a struggle to give us another go or she's trying to find reasons to end it.


----------



## londonguy

It was more than once, I really blew this one.

I don't want to replace her, my main goal is to work together on the financials issue longer term.

But before this happens we would need to reconcile and I can't say things have been going well on that front so far.



farsidejunky said:


> Then this is non negotiable.
> 
> If it is that important to you, why are you not making it non negotiable?
> 
> Oh, because your immature wife, who you threatened with divorce once, is making a total power play in your relationship.
> 
> Stop contacting her. Stop emailing her. Stop texting her. She only has the power over you that you give her.
> 
> Someone who is shallow and high maintenance is EASILY replaceable.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## londonguy

If she leaves I won't have much of an option, I'll see my child 2 days per 2 weeks, I find this the worst possible scenario. It's my child and I want us to be close.



jld said:


> If she leaves you, let her go. You were in over your head. Be a good dad in whatever capacity you can.
> 
> Make a wiser choice next time around, if it comes to that.


----------



## londonguy

I do think my mother in law and her aunt are advising her to stay away from me at the moment.

She's going to be a great mum because she cares a lot about the baby.



Evinrude58 said:


> I am thinking that his wife was looking for an excuse to divorce and enjoyed telling him she wanted it. Otherwise she would want to talk it over with him and come home. She's getting advice from others I suspect.
> 
> She will divorce him, take his paycheck with the new baby, and move on to the next sugardaddy.
> 
> I could be wrong, but the person he is describing (materialistic, self-centered, controlling, etc) does not sound like a person that is going to be a good one to trust ad start a family with.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## londonguy

I'll do anything it takes and won't allow this to repeat, she'll never hear divorce again if we reconcile. However yesterday she asked and what if counselling doesn't work, maybe she wants more certainty. 



Blossom Leigh said:


> I wouldn't write this relationship off so fast. We have yet to see how she reacts fully when her priorities are tested. It is amazing the changes that happen when people are faced with raw reality. Not to mention we do not have a full picture of her level of self awareness. Plus this is the mother of his child and the love of his life. Though he made a poor choice in managing extreme boundary frustration, I do not get the impression he is willing to say "oh, well, f*** it" and walk out. I can tell he's going to do the homework on these issues whether they stay together or not.


----------



## londonguy

I've already bought personal finance books for her but she didn't read them.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Op, if you are from a culture that values material things more for their status than usefulness, you are going to have a difficult time managing your finances, much less get your wife to go along with you.
> 
> I would suggest that you purchase a program to help you prioritize needs, what needs to be paid no matter what to help you determine how much excess money you actually have. Once you know that, you can divide up the excess money into categories of your chosing: saving for house, children's education, retirement, monthly spending on luxuries/eating out/ "mad money." Each of you should have an agreed upon amount of $ that you are allowed to spend on whatever you want, but no more.
> 
> Below I have posted a link to something that can help you and your wife get on the same page regarding finances.
> 
> Dave Ramsey's Online Store - daveramsey.com
> 
> "Financial Peace University Home Study Kit" $139
> 
> It will change your and your wife's marriage, and your lives.


----------



## londonguy

She's not seeing someone, I'm 100% certain about this



Evinrude58 said:


> When someone wants to walk away from a marriage, it's something that's been on their minds for a while. She knew he didn't mean it when he said he wanted a divorce; even though it's a horrible, stupid thing to say (the op knows this). This has been stewing for a while with her.
> 
> She will hardly talk to him and is cold as a cucumber toward him.
> 
> Something is going on in her mind that he doesn't know about.
> And I think it stems from her selfish, materialistic attitude. He might look on the guest list of this social event... Why was it so darned important? Who was there?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## londonguy

We talked over the phone, she sounded very angry.

She raised two more points, one is the financial issue. She wants more fancy restaurants, trips etc. The other issue is she wants more respect in front of her friends and family.

For the first one we need to discuss as I can't agree for the sake of agreeing.

The second one I'm more than happy to do, I was pissed of during the social obligation and I did say I may leave mid xmas to do surgery but the reason, which while a possibility I did say it because I was angry at her for booking the social event without my consent. 
This was poor behaviour from my part and she's got every right to feel betrayed.

She also said she doesn't want to meet.


----------



## jld

londonguy said:


> Yes, this is the case, we both are and I realise this makes it harder for her to have some financial discipline. However, if something does not change, we'll be in trouble down the road and it's a shame, we both have good jobs.


Can you get some advice from older men in your particular group? They have likely dealt with these issues, especially the financial ones, themselves. They know what works well with the women in your subculture, I would guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

To be honest I know of only one, he's sort of a model & mentor for me. He's a quite senior person in my industry and my wife's comment about him is she can't understand why he's a .. cheapass (who nonetheless lives in a very nice house in London instead of blowing his hard earned cash in brands and expensive trips).

He very rarely discusses personal matters, he's a very private person so I doubt asking him will trigger a response. I do know he almost went nuts with his wife a few years ago but I have no clue how they resolved it and he wouldn't tell me.

I know of no other. To be honest it's a financial disarray all over the place once people hit late 40s/early 50s and I do not plan to get there.



jld said:


> Can you get some advice from older men in your particular group? They have likely dealt with these issues, especially the financial ones, themselves. They know what works well with the women in your subculture, I would guess.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Just to be specific, are you in an Indian subgroup?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

No, not in an Indian subgroup, lets keep it broad and say southern Europe.



jld said:


> Just to be specific, are you in an Indian subgroup?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Okay. Stick to your guns on finances. You have to. 

I am not sure what to say for the rest. To me it sounds like you married someone with a stronger character than yourself. That must be hard. It can help if you listen to her and are willing to compromise on other issues. 

But bottom line, she seems stronger, and she knows it. For a certain kind of woman, that is unsettling. It does not make her trust you to know you can get rattled enough to threaten divorce. 

It seems like a lot of men on TAM get in over their heads with women. They get dazzled by a woman's beauty and that is pretty much the end of any real autonomy on their parts. I hope younger men reading this see it as a cautionary tale.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

Whats her justification for more fancy restaurants and vacations? How far down the road would y'all be in trouble if you did what she is asking? Has she seen the numbers in black and white? Is your money pooled together or separate? What would happen if it were separated if its not? 

I want to share a concept that may not be crossing your mind. I don't think its wise to chase her right now. Get centered as an individual. Just concentrate on your immediate space. By taking your hyper focus off of her, you open up space for her to seek you out and initiate. It could take her a while, so you would have to keep busy, but right now you are carrying the entire weight of this relationship on your shoulders. You need to lay it down and wait for her to pick up some of the load. The entirety of this relationship does not belong solely on your shoulders alone. 

You are the father of her child who ALSO deserves respect. You are working hard to provide and protect yall financially, she can back her truck up with the demands. See now I'm getting mad for you. If she wants to let her mother and aunt destroy her marriage with foolish ideas, then she is truly blind to her part in protecting this marriage. You are not her work mule she can beat with a whip going down the road. I equivocate your threatening divorce (though I dont like it) to you bucking her off. In the horse world we call that FEEDBACK and maybe she needed and deserved to have her a$$ bucked off. Sometimes you've GOT to say "Enough is f'in enough". So don't beat yourself up too hard for this one. I can tell this woman needs to be rocked back on her heels hard. 

Sorry for the fiestiness... That kind of disrespect ticks me off. Who the hell does she think she is.... Ok. Lol... Sorry


----------



## londonguy

I'll do that. My initial thought was to negotiate finances after the birth so that she doesn't get upset while pregnant but as she wants to discuss this now, I cannot but speak my mind about it.

I wouldn't say she's stronger though, I'm the one who proved stronger a few years back (we had fallen apart) and helped her beat depression, helped her prepare for industry interviews. Right now she does have the upper hand though for sure but that is not the same as strength.

Problem is she won't see me to discuss these things, I'll try to talk both points she raised over the phone and cross fingers we discuss constructively.



jld said:


> Okay. Stick to your guns on finances. You have to.
> 
> I am not sure what to say for the rest. To me it sounds like you married someone with a stronger character than yourself. That must be hard. It can help if you listen to her and are willing to compromise on other issues.
> 
> But bottom line, she seems stronger, and she knows it. For a certain kind of woman, that is unsettling. It does not make her trust you to know you can get rattled enough to threaten divorce.
> 
> It seems like a lot of men on TAM get in over their heads with women. They get dazzled by a woman's beauty and that is pretty much the end of any real autonomy on their parts. I hope younger men reading this see it as a cautionary tale.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

londonguy said:


> I'll do that. My initial thought was negotiate finances after the birth so that she doesn't get upset while pregnant but as she wants to discuss this now, I cannot but speak my mind about it.
> 
> I wouldn't say she's stronger though, I'm the one who proved stronger a few years back (we had fallen apart) and helped her beat depression, helped her prepare for industry interviews. Right now she does have the upper hand though for sure but that is not the same as strength.
> 
> Problem is she won't see me to discuss these things, I'll try to talk both points she raised over the phone and cross fingers we discuss constructively.


Yep, see, you've got a LOT on the ball. Don't let her drive your esteem into the dirt. She has way more treasure in you than her greed can see. There is a term around here called an affair fog, well this one is like a greed fog. She is thinking irrationally and missing the parts about you that count. Hold onto those parts of you until the fog lifts. Stand in your truth, always. She is fixing to make a massive mistake.


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## farsidejunky

You are being played, LG.

I think a part of you knows that, yet you are still doing it.

Good luck, brother.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## londonguy

Justification for this is ... that she wants the "best". Well we are paycheck to paycheck so either of us loosing his/her job would mean trouble.
I've tried talking numbers but we've progressed very little. Joint expenses like rent & bills are 50-50 atm, I'm happy to skew this according to income %'s and discussed this with her. When we go out, it's me who pays (and often this can cost quite a bit).
So far bank accounts are separate and I have told her that unless we define clear goals for joint accounts I do not agree.
She proposed to have a "working capital" shared account so that we do not talk about give me X£ for this or that, I didn't agree on the amount going there and I said lets put less there plus open a joint savings account with very clear goals (e.g. buy a house in this £range in X years time). She didn't agree to the two accounts idea (some £ going for current expenses but most being locked in a savings account with a clear objective agreed upon upfront).

I told her today that I am taking steps to amend for what I did but it is pointless if we don't talk, hinting that I want her to be there if this is to work.
I made the mistake, my behaviour was terrible tbh so I'm not in position for high demands but I do think if she's not picking up the phone nor seeing me we won't get anywhere. It's a difficult step for her to take as she's lost trust due to my tantrums.

I had told her a month ago or so that if we are to spend on brands & restaurants, rather than saving, then I'd rather get a job that's more relaxed, pays less and we can skip the brands. Financially this is equivalent and I'll live longer.



Blossom Leigh said:


> Whats her justification for more fancy restaurants and vacations? How far down the road would y'all be in trouble if you did what she is asking? Has she seen the numbers in black and white? Is your money pooled together or separate? What would happen if it were separated if its not?
> 
> I want to share a concept that may not be crossing your mind. I don't think its wise to chase her right now. Get centered as an individual. Just concentrate on your immediate space. By taking your hyper focus off of her, you open up space for her to seek you out and initiate. It could take her a while, so you would have to keep busy, but right now you are carrying the entire weight of this relationship on your shoulders. You need to lay it down and wait for her to pick up some of the load. The entirety of this relationship does not belong solely on your shoulders alone.
> 
> You are the father of her child who ALSO deserves respect. You are working hard to provide and protect yall financially, she can back her truck up with the demands. See now I'm getting mad for you. If she wants to let her mother and aunt destroy her marriage with foolish ideas, then she is truly blind to her part in protecting this marriage. You are not her work mule she can beat with a whip going down the road. I equivocate your threatening divorce (though I dont like it) to you bucking her off. In the horse world we call that FEEDBACK and maybe she needed and deserved to have her a$$ bucked off. Sometimes you've GOT to say "Enough is f'in enough". So don't beat yourself up too hard for this one. I can tell this woman needs to be rocked back on her heels hard.
> 
> Sorry for the fiestiness... That kind of disrespect ticks me off. Who the hell does she think she is.... Ok. Lol... Sorry


----------



## bandit.45

Let me let you in on something. Almost all of us live paycheck to paycheck. That is not something to feel ashamed of.


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## jld

bandit.45 said:


> Let me let you in on something. Almost all of us live paycheck to paycheck. That is not something to feel ashamed of.


It is very risky, bandit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

At some point, either due to the economy not being good, the business we work faltering for or health reasons, the paychecks may stop coming though. This is not unhedgeable, but it does take financial prudence to hedge it.



bandit.45 said:


> Let me let you in on something. Almost all of us live paycheck to paycheck. That is not something to feel ashamed of.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> It is very risky, bandit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you Helpy Helperton.


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## jld

londonguy said:


> I'll do that. My initial thought was to negotiate finances after the birth so that she doesn't get upset while pregnant but as she wants to discuss this now, I cannot but speak my mind about it.
> 
> I wouldn't say she's stronger though, I'm the one who proved stronger a few years back (we had fallen apart) and helped her beat depression, helped her prepare for industry interviews. Right now she does have the upper hand though for sure but that is not the same as strength.
> 
> Problem is she won't see me to discuss these things, I'll try to talk both points she raised over the phone and cross fingers we discuss constructively.


Maybe upper hand is the better term. Someone who overspends is certainly not strong.

Thing is, if she feels she can make it on her own, and does not feel the need to talk to you, that is not a sign she sees strength in you. If she did, she would be seeking you out, or at least be open to your efforts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

bandit.45 said:


> Thank you Helpy Helperton.


It's reality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

londonguy said:


> At some point, either due to the economy not being good, the business we work faltering for or health reasons, the paychecks may stop coming though. This is not unhedgeable, but it does take financial prudence to hedge it.


It is good to plan and save and budget. That's just being a good steward with your money. 

But understand that there is no such thing as security. You are a bit better off because you have Mother England who takes care of you from cradle to grave. But that could all go away tomorrow. We live in an unstable world. Here in America we had thousands of older people who's retirements and life savings were wiped out during the financial collapse of 2007-2008. People in their 60s getting ready to retire all of a sudden had to go back to work...at minimum wage jobs, just to put food on the table. I have several friends who's parents are living with them now because they lost everything. 

Nothing is for certain, no matter how well you plan.


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## bandit.45

jld said:


> It's reality.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll take that under advisement thank you.


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## Blossom Leigh

You may not have an immediate upper hand, but that does not mean you now have to lay down. Sure, make amends, but dont grovel. Bottom line is, she is being unreasonable with being ok leaving the family at financial risk just to get her ego stroked. Put your foot down and leave it there. If she wants to walk because her life isnt high falootant enough, her loss. 

And here is a thought.. I've told my H, I dont want him NOT standing up to me. There is a possibility she is waiting for you to "declare how its going to be" and be done with her silliness. Just food for thought...


----------



## jld

It is terrible that Wall St. did what it did, and that no one has gone to jail. Go see the movie _The Big Short_. Excellent.

But spending on jewelry and restaurants is completely discretionary spending. It requires some self control to rein it in. But you can save a lot if you do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

Called her to discuss the new issues she raised today, she said she's out and she's going to return late so I shouldn't call. Doesn't sound to me like she wants to talk.

I guess it's the price to pay. I mentioned divorce, broke her trust and now she's giving me exactly what I asked for.


----------



## londonguy

The thing is that she doesn't view it as putting the family at risks. She thinks paycheck to paycheck is normal because promotions will come, the sky will always be blue etc so why not spend to enjoy ourselves ?



Blossom Leigh said:


> You may not have an immediate upper hand, but that does not mean you now have to lay down. Sure, make amends, but dont grovel. Bottom line is, she is being unreasonable with being ok leaving the family at financial risk just to get her ego stroked. Put your foot down and leave it there. If she wants to walk because her life isnt high falootant enough, her loss.
> 
> And here is a thought.. I've told my H, I dont want him NOT standing up to me. There is a possibility she is waiting for you to "declare how its going to be" and be done with her silliness. Just food for thought...


----------



## jld

londonguy said:


> Called her to discuss the new issues she raised today, she said she's out and she's going to return late so I shouldn't call. Doesn't sound to me like she wants to talk.
> 
> I guess it's the price to pay. I mentioned divorce, broke her trust and now she's giving me exactly what I asked for.


It may not be a bad thing, though, if you were in over your head with her. You need to be with the right person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## londonguy

It's very far off what I want though, to make my amends for mentioning divorce , work on the other issues together with her and raise our child together.



jld said:


> It may not be a bad thing, though, if you were in over your head with her. You need to be with the right person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

londonguy said:


> It's very far off what I want though, to make my amends for mentioning divorce , work on the other issues together with her and raise our child together.


Then work on your character issues. Be rigorously honest with yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## londonguy

I'm trying, already talked to a counsellor about beginning sessions, cancelled anything related to hoping to a new job so that I don't have upcoming preparation & interviews. When I recover I'll also start a sport. 

Regarding the new issues she raised, I cannot agree on the financial one but perhaps this will be ok.

Not being able to talk to my wife and hold her tummy with our baby inside has brought me in a state of shock to be honest.

She won't talk to me or see me though, so how can I reconcile :frown2:



jld said:


> Then work on your character issues. Be rigorously honest with yourself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

You may not be able to.

If you do get to talk to her, focus on listening.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Adelais

londonguy said:


> The thing is that she doesn't view it as putting the family at risks. She thinks paycheck to paycheck is normal because promotions will come, the sky will always be blue etc so why not spend to enjoy ourselves ?


She sounds immature. She hasn't lived life or seen how people's lives can change drastically very quickly over a job.

Imagine the misery of living with her and her demands for 20 more years, with children to support.


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## jld

Not sure why you want her, though. A less pretty, frugal woman would be much easier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

Perhaps with the child she'll be more financially prudent. I had a discussion about this before the wedding, then she had promised she'd be prudent when we're family (didn't happen but we're only a few months into our marriage).



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Imagine the misery of living with her and her demands for 20 more years, with children to support.


----------



## londonguy

she mentioned new issues, asked her to discuss these this evening as I want her to feel comfortable with all aspects of our relationship.

I brought the marriage where it is now by mentioning divorce and having a tantrum but I'm really doing all I can to make amends.



jld said:


> You may not be able to.
> 
> If you do get to talk to her, focus on listening.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

I have a very strong attachment to her, also it drives me crazy to think I won't be able to raise my child, be next to it, teach it what I can and protect it.



jld said:


> Not sure why you want her, though. A less pretty, frugal woman would be much easier.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Adelais

londonguy said:


> I have a very strong attachment to her, also it drives me crazy to think I won't be able to raise my child, be next to it, teach it what I can and protect it.


Your attachment to her seems unhealthy, when she clearly disrespects you, abuses you (makes you go out while you are sick) and she plans to ruin you financially. You sound like you are addicted to her.

You will be able to be next to your child, teach and protect it. Just not all the time if you are D. The good side is that when it is with you, it will be 100% with you, and you won't have to listen to her criticize you. You can be sure that she will not believe you are a good enough father, since she is already on that track regarding your ability to be a good husband.


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## Adelais

londonguy said:


> Perhaps with the child she'll be more financially prudent. I had a discussion about this before the wedding, then *she had promised she'd be prudent when we're family (didn't happen but we're only a few months into our marriage).*


When did she plan to start keeping her promise? She already broke it.


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## Adelais

londonguy said:


> she mentioned new issues, asked her to discuss these this evening as I want her to feel comfortable with all aspects of our relationship.
> 
> *I brought the marriage where it is now by mentioning divorce and having a tantrum but I'm really doing all I can to make amends.*


She repeatedly disrespected your need to rest and forced you to go to social gatherings, and stay too late. You were exasperated, and she brought you to that point.

Yes you spoke the D word instead of telling her how you really felt at the time. Do you think that you were desperate and had a moment of clarity when you threatened D? Do you think that you realized that if you stayed with her that she would wear you out (perhaps even to the point of physical exhaustion) and you don't want to be worn out?


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## londonguy

Indeed, I got angry because I thought she was putting social bs above my need to rest and recover (which btw was by doctor's orders). Yes I was afraid as well I'd be worn out and tbh I was scared as the doctor in London had said that if despite the antibiotic the symptoms wouldn't go away within X days I'll need surgery (if it doesn't go away it's an emergency but it's something treatable, not something life threatening).

However threatening D was not a moment of clarity, it was the wrong way to express all those feelings.

I've mentioned D two more times in the past, one time again when I really needed rest but didn't let me get it (this was when I didn't have enough sleep for 2 week) and another time when while I was talking about finances and she wore sound-proof headphones (well not completely sound proof it seems, she heard me!) when I felt completely ignored.

In all those cases I had a good reason to be angry but mentioning D was way out of line. I had valid reasons to be very angry but she has valid reasons too to be hurt, she's my pregnant wife and I'm the person that should be next to her, not threaten D.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> She repeatedly disrespected your need to rest and forced you to go to social gatherings, and stay too late. You were exasperated, and she brought you to that point.
> 
> Yes you spoke the D word instead of telling her how you really felt at the time. Do you think that you were desperate and had a moment of clarity when you threatened D? Do you think that you realized that if you stayed with her that she would wear you out (perhaps even to the point of physical exhaustion) and you don't want to be worn out?


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## londonguy

I was seeing a counsellor during a breakup we had some years ago, I think the counsellor was puzzled by this but she didn't find it unhealthy as long as I had some limit to which I was willing to hurt myself to revive the relationship.

To the best of my knowledge, with D, I'll be seeing my child every second weekend. This is 1/7 th of its time. I'll barely have time to hear how it is doing, the stepdad will be the example to observe at home, not the dad. This may sound too much but it's my blood and I want a fair chance to raise it.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Your attachment to her seems unhealthy, when she clearly disrespects you, abuses you (makes you go out while you are sick) and she plans to ruin you financially. You sound like you are addicted to her.
> 
> You will be able to be next to your child, teach and protect it. Just not all the time if you are D. The good side is that when it is with you, it will be 100% with you, and you won't have to listen to her criticize you. You can be sure that she will not believe you are a good enough father, since she is already on that track regarding your ability to be a good husband.


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## jld

londonguy said:


> I have a very strong attachment to her, also it drives me crazy to think I won't be able to raise my child, be next to it, teach it what I can and protect it.


If she is worth it to you, good enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

That I do not know and it puzzles me if I'm too quick to see she didn't keep it or she just hasn't had enough time to adjust to a family situation. I don't have an answer but it puzzles me a lot.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> When did she plan to start keeping her promise? She already broke it.


----------



## jld

londonguy said:


> That I do not know and it puzzles me if I'm too quick to see she didn't keep it or she just hasn't had enough time to adjust to a family situation. I don't have an answer but it puzzles me a lot.


The best clue to people's future behavior is their past behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

londonguy said:


> To the best of my knowledge, with D, I'll be seeing my child every second weekend. This is 1/7 th of its time. I'll barely have time to hear how it is doing, the stepdad will be the example to observe at home, not the dad. This may sound too much but it's my blood and I want a fair chance to raise it.


Very good points, OP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Adelais

londonguy said:


> she's my pregnant wife and I'm the person that should be next to her, not threaten D.


Unless you mean it. I get that you didn't mean it.

Did your parents threaten D when you were growing up? My first H was raised in a D home, and all his siblings were D. That's where he got that in his head. It was the solution to him. He never had anyone model to him that a married couple could work out issues without yelling, and ultimately threatening D.


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## jld

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Unless you mean it. I get that you didn't mean it.
> 
> Did your parents threaten D when you were growing up? My first H was raised in a D home, and all his siblings were D. That's where he got that in his head. It was the solution to him. He never had anyone model to him that a married couple could work out issues without yelling, and ultimately threatening D.


Interesting point, IMFAR. My dad never said the word divorce, nor my husband. Maybe that is why I am so horrified to hear that men do this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

I didn't mean it but how was she supposed to know this. Even if she did know, it's a very hurtful thing to hear.

My parents did not D but D was mentioned sometimes during their arguments



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Unless you mean it. I get that you didn't mean it.
> 
> Did your parents threaten D when you were growing up? My first H was raised in a D home, and all his siblings were D. That's where he got that in his head. It was the solution to him. He never had anyone model to him that a married couple could work out issues without yelling, and ultimately threatening D.


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## londonguy

My wife is from a D home though, and I know she wants to have the stable family she never had as a child


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## Adelais

londonguy said:


> I was seeing a counsellor during a breakup we had some years ago, I think the counsellor was puzzled by this but she didn't find it unhealthy as long as I had some limit to which I was willing to hurt myself to revive the relationship.


Are any of the issues happening now the same ones that caused you to break up before?



londonguy said:


> To the best of my knowledge, with D, I'll be seeing my child every second weekend. This is 1/7 th of its time. I'll barely have time to hear how it is doing, the stepdad will be the example to observe at home, not the dad. *This may sound too much but it's my blood and I want a fair chance to raise it.*


You wouldn't have the child for 50% of the time? Understandable that you would want to be more of an influence than the step dad.


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## Adelais

londonguy said:


> I didn't mean it but how was she supposed to know this. Even if she did know, it's a very hurtful thing to hear.
> 
> My parents did not D but D was mentioned sometimes during their arguments


You both have some work to do in counseling to undo the imprinting of D on your brains, even though in your case you only heard it spoken. You learned that it is a tool to be used during an argument. That is very damaging.

You hit on her own fear of abandonment. It will take a lot of work on your part, and consistent devotion, NEVER saying the D word, ever again, for her to get over what you did.

You have 2 issues going on here: 1. Your tantrums and throwing D in her face. 2. Financial incompatibility. They must both be worked on for your marriage to heal and thrive.


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## jld

londonguy said:


> My wife is from a D home though, and I know she wants to have the stable family she never had as a child


Well, that is something to work with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

There are some similarities but it's not the same. I had a really rough patch, someone really close to me died unexpectedly, my scholarship ended same month and I had to finish my graduate studies + get a job.
She was not high in my priorities list and I wasn't keeping the house in good order. She pushed back, I pushed back harder etc etc ultimately she asked to break up.
After that it took awhile to get there but a couple of years down the line I was well with myself & what had happened, well in terms of career, well financially and relationship-wise I was getting some good dates but I never really connected to someone I dated and I was still thinking of her.
She had depression, I helped her get through it (it wasn't easy, my energy was completely drained but it worked), helped her get a job and we started being close again.

Regarding the child, to the best of my knowledge it's one weekend every two weeks. This is not enough time to see my child growing up and be a real parent.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Are any of the issues happening now the same ones that caused you to break up before?
> 
> 
> 
> You wouldn't have the child for 50% of the time? Understandable that you would want to be more of an influence than the step dad.


----------



## londonguy

Thanks for this, I never really considered that hearing D at home back then would have an impact on me doing this decades later but it makes sense.

For 1. I'll start IC & I'll remove anything stressful from my life. For 2, I plan to propose to first talk about it between us and as a next step if needed, do MC.

For anything to happen though we need to talk and meet. She's not too keen on that and to be honest I can't blame her.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> You both have some work to do in counseling to undo the imprinting of D on your brains, even though in your case you only heard it spoken. You learned that it is a tool to be used during an argument. That is very damaging.
> 
> You hit on her own fear of abandonment. It will take a lot of work on your part, and consistent devotion, NEVER saying the D word, ever again, for her to get over what you did.
> 
> You have 2 issues going on here: 1. Your tantrums and throwing D in her face. 2. Financial incompatibility. They must both be worked on for your marriage to heal and thrive.


----------



## Adelais

londonguy said:


> Thanks for this, I never really considered that hearing D at home back then would have an impact on me doing this decades later but it makes sense.
> 
> For 1. I'll start IC & I'll remove anything stressful from my life. For 2, I plan to propose to first talk about it between us and as a next step if needed, do MC.
> 
> For anything to happen though we need to talk and meet. She's not too keen on that and to be honest I can't blame her.


Whether or not she meets with you, start seeing an IC.

Personally, I believe that she, and the amount of money you (and she) spend is one of the huge stressers in your life.

Stop reaching out to her. The more you call, and the more she rebuffs you, you are looking more and more pathetic in her eyes.

I understand that you are in love with your child, perhaps even more than you love your wife, because the child hasn't hurt you and needs you while your wife doesn't. But you have to accept that unfortunately the fate of your child seems to be in your wife's hands according to British law.

Even if you get back with her this time, the next time she gets fed up with you, or finds someone else who has more money, you will be thrown to the sidelines and you not see your child.

You should not get back together with her just because you have a child with her. You have to get back together because she is the right woman for you, and you for her. If she wants to spend you to oblivion, and party until YOU drop, do you really believe she is the right woman for you?


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## londonguy

Already contacted the counsellor I was seeing.

I do have a lot of financial stress, it's true, I even do not sleep well because of it. 

How can I reconcile though if we do not talk? she's not too keen on it and I doubt she'll contact me as I'm the one who messed this up. At least so far she heard that I'll be taking real steps towards the D-word & the tantrum.

These day's I'm really messed up with the prospect of not being able to raise my child but indeed there's not much I can do about it.

In 10 years she never left me for someone with more $ and most of these years I wasn't making any tbh (scholarship funding). She's not a gold-digger, just very very bad at personal finance.

Spending to oblivion and party till I drop are two of my fears indeed but we can work this out, like 1 weekend partying and 1 weekend chill out. The spending bit is more tricky but I think she'll be more responsible when there's a child.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Whether or not she meets with you, start seeing an IC.
> 
> Personally, I believe that she, and the amount of money you (and she) spend is one of the huge stressers in your life.
> 
> Stop reaching out to her. The more you call, and the more she rebuffs you, you are looking more and more pathetic in her eyes.
> 
> I understand that you are in love with your child, perhaps even more than you love your wife, because the child hasn't hurt you and needs you while your wife doesn't. But you have to accept that unfortunately the fate of your child seems to be in your wife's hands according to British law.
> 
> Even if you get back with her this time, the next time she gets fed up with you, or finds someone else who has more money, you will be thrown to the sidelines and you not see your child.
> 
> You should not get back together with her just because you have a child with her. You have to get back together because she is the right woman for you, and you for her. If she wants to spend you to oblivion, and party until YOU drop, do you really believe she is the right woman for you?


----------



## Adelais

londonguy said:


> How can I reconcile though if we do not talk? she's not too keen on it and I doubt she'll contact me as I'm the one who messed this up. At least so far she heard that I'll be taking real steps towards the D-word & the tantrum.


You cannot. You have to respect her space and decisions in this area.

If you leave her alone, she will probably begin reaching out to you, unless there is actually another man already waiting in the wings. But what man wants to take on a pregnant woman? You will have to wait for her to begin coming to her.

Do you know anything about animal training? You don't force yourself on an animal that is fearful. They will just lash out and punish you more. You ignore them until they feel safe and curious enough for them to come to you. Even then, you let them come only as close as they are comfortable. This actually works with humans too.

Leaving your wife alone is your first step in learning how to show her that you value her decisions. (Not talking about the financial decisions here.) You are letting her know that you only want to be with her if she also wants to be with you. This will also teach her that you are willing to give her up if she is not compatable with you.

By chasing her you are telling her, "I want to be with you no matter how you feel, and no matter how you treat me."



londonguy said:


> These day's I'm really messed up with the prospect of not being able to raise my child but indeed* there's not much I can do about it.*


Keep reminding yourself that every time you want to reach out to her because of the child.



londonguy said:


> In 10 years she never left me for someone with more $ and most of these years I wasn't making any tbh (scholarship funding). She's not a gold-digger, just very very bad at personal finance.


That is good. She needs to learn personal finance now, and you need to make that one of your conditions for getting back with her if she decides to come back.



londonguy said:


> Spending to oblivion and party till I drop are two of my fears indeed but we can work this out, like 1 weekend partying and 1 weekend chill out. The spending bit is more tricky *but I think she'll be more responsible when there's a child.*


Why do you think that having a child will cause her to spend less? Having a child will cause her to spend *more.*There will be basic needs, but with her preoccupation with brand names and the like, she is going to want nothing but the best, and lots of it, for your child. There will be no putting the breaks on that. She will say that the child *needs* this or that, and it will be her opinion versus yours. She will say, "Do you want our child to be treated like a commoner? Our child *needs* such and such to be regarded with respect by his/her peers."


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## Blossom Leigh

Just remember... In order to reconcile, she's got to give you something to work with. If she remains unavailable, thats on her.

She may not see finances as a way to protect your family, thats unfortunate, but that language can be introduced in counseling and become a joint effort. Its a climate that needs to be cultivated, so that she knows where the boundaries are to protect.


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## farsidejunky

Let her go. If she comes back, then you can reconcile. Until then, she is making a power play through immaturity. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## londonguy

I'll stay clear then, it's not easy but I'll try. All I wanted was to spend our first holidays as a family but I should had been more careful and not mention D.




IMFarAboveRubies said:


> You cannot. You have to respect her space and decisions in this area.
> 
> If you leave her alone, she will probably begin reaching out to you, unless there is actually another man already waiting in the wings. But what man wants to take on a pregnant woman? You will have to wait for her to begin coming to her.
> 
> Do you know anything about animal training? You don't force yourself on an animal that is fearful. They will just lash out and punish you more. You ignore them until they feel safe and curious enough for them to come to you. Even then, you let them come only as close as they are comfortable. This actually works with humans too.
> 
> Leaving your wife alone is your first step in learning how to show her that you value her decisions. (Not talking about the financial decisions here.) You are letting her know that you only want to be with her if she also wants to be with you. This will also teach her that you are willing to give her up if she is not compatable with you.
> 
> By chasing her you are telling her, "I want to be with you no matter how you feel, and no matter how you treat me."
> 
> Keep reminding yourself that every time you want to reach out to her because of the child.
> 
> 
> That is good. She needs to learn personal finance now, and you need to make that one of your conditions for getting back with her if she decides to come back.
> 
> 
> Why do you think that having a child will cause her to spend less? Having a child will cause her to spend *more.*There will be basic needs, but with her preoccupation with brand names and the like, she is going to want nothing but the best, and lots of it, for your child. There will be no putting the breaks on that. She will say that the child *needs* this or that, and it will be her opinion versus yours. She will say, "Do you want our child to be treated like a commoner? Our child *needs* such and such to be regarded with respect by his/her peers."


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Let her go. If she comes back, then you can reconcile. Until then, she is making a power play through immaturity.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I don't think it is a power play. I think she genuinely felt threatened, and is questioning the value of the relationship. If I were with a man who threatened me, I certainly would.

Give it some time, and then try again, OP. But in the meantime, examine your heart for what you could do differently to create a healthier dynamic between the two of you. Humble yourself. That just means be as honest as possible with yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

Today's update, We talked over the phone.

She raised the point that she wants to be more time out and that I want to chill, I proposed 1 week out partying, one week chilling. She said that even on the honeymoon she had to discuss why to do an exodus, I replied to her that it's ok to discuss something for 5 min, which is how long it took to say lets go ahead and do it (I'm puzzled why she mentioned this).
I reminded her there was plenty of going out during the last months - a lot of theatre, operas, cinema, house gatherings and one very fancy restaurant plus a quite a few normal to good restaurants, if I recall we stayed in 2 or 3 weekends during 5 months.

She raised that we haven't gone on a trip for the last 4 months. Tbh trips is something I enjoy too but didn't have any available holiday days to take off work, I told her this and proposed a trip to Florence in a month. She said she doesn't believe me but tbh this is a fear I can very easily dispel if we sit down and book tickets.

She noted I left all the presents from her mum at her house, which is disrespectful. To be honest she's right and I owe an apology for this to my mother in law, I was really angry when I was packing and I shouldn't had done this.

She said she wants more respect in front of her friends - I had told them I'm flying (and thus she'd be alone in new year's eve) to do an operation. This may turn out to be the case but said it purely out of spite and it was a mean thing to say (was angry because she prioretised the social bit over my need to recover). I apologised for that, it's probably not enough, I'll need to wait for the next time we see her friends to amend this.

She called me stingy, I told her I'm happy to put money somewhere for collective use but I want this to be part of a family budget towards longer-term goals such as buying a house. She kind of mocked this, didn't discuss it and told me I didn't even tip I guy I don't even remember during that day that I had nausea due to medication. I counterargued that I don't feel that way as I happily tipped a cab driver 10 days ago as he had half a kidney and I felt she needed financial support. Also what's the point of doing saying this for few£ when the presents she has are worth a few thousands.
Then she said why in the supermarket must I always look for deals and how much I spend and it feels cheap. I told her, when she wanted something I always went for high quality products and I can't see why it would be better if I spend more to get the same.
Plus whenever she needed food from a restaurant, I never discussed price and just got it for her as I understand she has pregnancy cravings.
She then said that I shouldn't count how much I spent on a daily basis, I countered that then we should agree to a fixed budget for day to day expenses and agree to never get above it. To be honest given that we're paycheck to paycheck if I don't count it won't look good at the end of the month and I don't need this sort of stress.
I am somewhat pissed off for calling me cheapass given that I'm the one paying most of the time when we go out (some places are quite expensive) and I also tend to pay the supermarket but I confined myself to saying I don't agree with that and the alternative is to budget jointly.

Overall I wouldn't say it went well but as she didn't mention D, at least perhaps(?) she believes that I never meant to say it but I'm not sure if she believes I won't say it again.

I'm the one who created the current situation when I mentioned D but I think sticking to my some points like financials is a must. Also I can't agree for the sake of agreeing on not having gone out enough, we've gone out plenty.

She doesn't want to see me. Lets hope I can turn this ugly situation around...


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## farsidejunky

Immaturity. Proceed at your own risk, OP.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## bandit.45

She sounds like a character from _Westenders._ 

Why the hell do you love her? She sounds like a shallow, selfish little b!tch.


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## Blossom Leigh

Wow london.... No trip in four months... And she's complaining???? Even with all the other nice moments out? Geeze you married a spoiled brat. There have been times in my life I've gone as long as seven YEARS without a vacation and generally its three to four YEARS between them now. We recently now make shorter trips to see family, but the last trip just for us, not seeing family, to enjoy ourselves was in 2008.

And do I berate my husband for that.. hell no!


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## Adelais

She showed you more of her true colors today. Since she didn't mention D, she seems to be backing down a bit. The financials are a huge thing. She will never be happy, and what you give her, where you take her, how often you go out, where you go, how much you spend, etc. will never be enough. It sounds like she married the wrong guy. She thought your pockets were bottomless, but they do have a bottom. She doesn't care how stressed you are by living check to check. Do you have life insurance? She might be happier if you died of a heart attack and she could blow through your life insurance. I'm serious. It doesn't sound like she loves you. It sounds like you were nothing but a blank check to an endless life of parties and shopping.

Don't call her. Let her call you. Stick to your guns regarding the finances. Can you open a separate account to deposit all your paychecks, and then move the amount that you think you can afford to spend to the current account she has access to? She needs to agree to do the same.

My mother-in-law was a spender while my father-in-law was wise with money. He had to lock down the accounts and give her an allowance because she would spend it all if she had access to it. He worked hard, saved and became a millionaire. When he came down with alzheimers and she got a hold of his money, she blew it all soon after he died. She went from being a millionaire to worrying if she would be homeless...but she never stopped having her nails done and having a housekeeper. Crazy. Now she is on her 4th husband, (she's in her 70's and he's in his 80's) and is spending his money remodeling his kitchen, buying furniture, taking him on cruises, etc., although it took her a couple of years to convince him to share his money with her.

Calling you stingy is so untrue and insulting. From what you say your money has been going through your hands like water for her.


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## londonguy

I'd definitely prefer it if she weren't spoilt ... I feel a constant pressure and life would be more enjoyable if we could be happy with what we can get and not overthink what we sometimes can't.



Blossom Leigh said:


> Wow london.... No trip in four months... And she's complaining???? Even with all the other nice moments out? Geeze you married a spoiled brat. There have been times in my life I've gone as long as seven YEARS without a vacation and generally its three to four YEARS between them now. We recently now make shorter trips to see family, but the last trip just for us, not seeing family, to enjoy ourselves was in 2008.
> 
> And do I berate my husband for that.. hell no!


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## londonguy

I hope she's backing down a bit but yesterday she still said she doesn't want to see me.
She's not a gold-digger, was with me for years when I had nothing. Regarding life insurance, it's me who proposed we do one and she found it sickly to profit from one's death but I insisted because there's a kid coming and I don't want my family to have issues because something unexpected happened to me.

At the moment that's how we do it. Separate accounts and we transfer to a joint account on demand for rent, bills etc, but it's me who pays the lion share of our expenses when going out. Right now I'm not comfortable with a joint account unless we agree what we'll do with it.

You mother in law's story sounds scary tbh but while she's definitely (very) spoilt, she's not a gold-digger and she has a good soul. I'll try to work with her on the personal finance front.

I am insulted with her calling me stingy, we did a lot of things right at (or even above) our financial capacity she could to some extent hold the memories more dear.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> She showed you more of her true colors today. Since she didn't mention D, she seems to be backing down a bit. The financials are a huge thing. She will never be happy, and what you give her, where you take her, how often you go out, where you go, how much you spend, etc. will never be enough. It sounds like she married the wrong guy. She thought your pockets were bottomless, but they do have a bottom. She doesn't care how stressed you are by living check to check. Do you have life insurance? She might be happier if you died of a heart attack and she could blow through your life insurance. I'm serious. It doesn't sound like she loves you. It sounds like you were nothing but a blank check to an endless life of parties and shopping.
> 
> Don't call her. Let her call you. Stick to your guns regarding the finances. Can you open a separate account to deposit all your paychecks, and then move the amount that you think you can afford to spend to the current account she has access to? She needs to agree to do the same.
> 
> My mother-in-law was a spender while my father-in-law was wise with money. He had to lock down the accounts and give her an allowance because she would spend it all if she had access to it. He worked hard, saved and became a millionaire. When he came down with alzheimers and she got a hold of his money, she blew it all soon after he died. She went from being a millionaire to worrying if she would be homeless...but she never stopped having her nails done and having a housekeeper. Crazy. Now she is on her 4th husband, (she's in her 70's and he's in his 80's) and is spending his money remodeling his kitchen, buying furniture, taking him on cruises, etc., although it took her a couple of years to convince him to share his money with her.
> 
> Calling you stingy is so untrue and insulting. From what you say your money has been going through your hands like water for her.


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## londonguy

We'll meet today, I have a bad feeling this about telling me to D for good and giving what I asked for.


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## Satya

Wow, if you bend over backwards and forwards for her any more you may as well change your name to Gumby. 

Less talk, more DO. 

She is sheet and comfort testing you left and right. She is dominating your frame of mind so you have no leg to stand on when you talk. All you do is cave. She's pregnant, not the Queen. Seriously, stop talking to her and get your life in order. Leave her alone to be the adult woman she is. You sweep your own porch. 

She knows you're a wreck and she knows she can squash you under her boot. How is this impressive or attractive? Until you can focus on improving yourself you AVOID situations that keep your face in the mud. In other words, stop engaging her. She's very scared, confused, and immature, and testing your resolve is the best way she has to know if you're dependable or not. Caving to her isn't helping her image of you. Right now you're Gumby and you need to aspire to be Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee. 

If you must speak with her, learn these words:

"No."
"I'm sorry you feel that way."
"I'm not OK with that."

Then OWN the stuff you've done wrong (like the presents thing), fix it, and carry on. Don't be a d1ck to her, be stoic and unwavering and get sheet done. Don't expect her to come running, you forge ahead with your journey and MAYBE she'll want to follow when she sees your CONSISTENT independence and resolve.


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## jld

Why were you arguing with her? Active listening would have been more effective.

Look, you are not entitled to a beautiful woman, either. You wanted beauty, and she expects a certain lifestyle. If she can get it elsewhere, she is not going to stay with you. Market economics.

I think both of your priorities are wrong, not just hers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

londonguy said:


> I'd definitely prefer it if she weren't spoilt ... I feel a constant pressure and life would be more enjoyable if we could be happy with what we can get and not overthink what we sometimes can't.


There is something to be said for learning contentment. Being anxious all the time is miserable. I think this is your truth, that you want to rest in contentment. You want your income to serve your family comfortably. You've already said its high enough. The problem is it is stretched too far and demands are high. If I were in your shoes, I would joint all the money, create a reasonable spending plan that does allow for balance between protecting your future and living life now. I would include "some" fun, entertainment, date money" but would scale back how expensive these events are. Lay our the spending plan along with letting her know how important sound financial management and an attitude of contentment is to you. This is the truth drum I would softly beat. If she bucks it, let her buck until she wears herself out, but do not move off your truth drum. What you are asking is reasonable.

I would also address her unreasonable treatment of you. Just like she will no longer tolerate you threatening divorce, you will no longer tolerate the disrespectful name calling and total disregard for your efforts in protecting your financial health and physical health. She is being irrational.

I don't think you are very prepared for todays meeting, but know there is support here for your position.


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## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> There is something to be said for learning contentment. Being anxious all the time is miserable. I think this is your truth, that you want to rest in contentment. You want your income to serve your family comfortably. You've already said its high enough. The problem is it is stretched too far and demands are high. If I were in your shoes, I would joint all the money, create a reasonable spending plan that does allow for balance between protecting your future and living life now. I would include "some" fun, entertainment, date money" but would scale back how expensive these events are. Lay our the spending plan along with letting her know how important sound financial management and an attitude of contentment is to you. This is the truth drum I would softly beat. If she bucks it, let her buck until she wears herself out, but do not move off your truth drum. What you are asking is reasonable.
> 
> *I would also address her unreasonable treatment of you. Just like she will no longer tolerate you threatening divorce, you will no longer tolerate the disrespectful name calling and total disregard for your efforts in protecting your financial health and physical health. She is being irrational.*
> 
> I don't think you are very prepared for todays meeting, but know there is support here for your position.


Blossom, if she does not want to be with him anymore, how is the bolded helpful?

He wants to be with her. She sounds more than happy to let him go. The way I see it, he has no bargaining chips. 

He needs to create desire through meeting her emotional needs, while at the same time keeping their long term financial interests in mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

If she doesnt want to be with him anymore, he'll never even get the chance to address the behavior. I think meeting with her today unprepared is a mistake, because he does need leverage to address those things. If it were me I would postpone until I had it. But, eventually, they will need to be addressed, in one way or another, either a direct style or by inspiration the way you guys do it. This man has agency she is being abusive to and she needs to stop.


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## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> If she doesnt want to be with him anymore, he'll never even get the chance to address the behavior. I think meeting with her today unprepared is a mistake, because he does need leverage to address those things. If it were me I would postpone until I had it. But, eventually, they will need to be addressed, in one way or another, either a direct style or by inspiration the way you guys do it. This man has agency she is being abusive to and she needs to stop.


Listening to her, truly listening, and not getting defensive, could create that leverage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Listening to her, truly listening, and not getting defensive, could create that leverage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not if he cannot or will not agree to her materialistic wants. No matter what happens, he will have to contend with that. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Not if he cannot or will not agree to her materialistic wants. No matter what happens, he will have to contend with that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


We've talked about that. He has to keep those financial realities in the forefront for both of them.

But without succeeding in meeting her emotional needs, he is going to be paying, while having little time with his son.

He is not in a position to negotiate right now. He needs to focus on meeting emotional needs, and gently but clearly sticking to financial reality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

But her declared "emotional needs" are unreasonable. It would be foolhearty to try to meet them. He needs to remain centered on the truth of what is reasonable until she comes out of her foolishness. Until then he is dealing with a brick wall. He can treat her with dignity, care and respect and no defensivess, but I do not advocate attempting to meet an unreasonable expectation/needs, especially at a hyper level.


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## farsidejunky

Blossom Leigh said:


> But her declared "emotional needs" are unreasonable. It would be foolhearty to try to meet them. He needs to remain centered on the truth of what is reasonable until she comes out of her foolishness. Until then he is dealing with a brick wall. He can treat her with dignity, care and respect and no defensivess, but I do not advocate attempting to meet an unreasonable expectation/needs, especially at a hyper level.


QFT.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> But her declared "emotional needs" are unreasonable. It would be foolhearty to try to meet them. He needs to remain centered on the truth of what is reasonable until she comes out of her foolishness. Until then he is dealing with a brick wall. He can treat her with dignity, care and respect and no defensivess, but I do not advocate attempting to meet an unreasonable expectation/needs, especially at a hyper level.


I think just listening, especially active listening, could get them on a better track. He does not need to agree with her, but just sincerely seek to understand her. I think that is his most hopeful path for avoiding weekend fatherhood.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lila

OP's financial disagreements with his wife remind me a lot of the issues I had early on with my H. I'm a big believer in 'work to live' not 'live to work'. My husband is a saver and I'm a spender, always have been, probably always will be. He knew this going into the relationship and he still _chose_ to proceed with the marriage regardless. 

Like the OP's wife, I too enjoy going out to nice restaurants, taking frequent trips, going to concerts, etc.... Considering that I was doing all of those things on my salary alone prior to getting married (while paying for the rent and utilities on my apartment, food, fuel, etc.) I saw no reason why things would change after marriage. Imagine my surprise when, after getting married, my husband started "laying down the law" with how _our_ money was going to be spent. See the problem wasn't that we had different ideas with how money should be handled, the problem was that he thought his way was right and mine was wrong. Our battles were epic. It wasn't until we both sat down and agreed on *joint* financial goals that we were able to agree on the budget (and how money was spent). We don't save as much as H would like but we also don't spend as much as I would like. It's called a compromise. I don't think our relationship would have survived a year otherwise.

OP if your wife was like this before you married, then you're in for a load of hurt if you think she's going to miraculously change because she's now married to you. TBH, you married her knowing exactly what you were getting and it's not fair to ask her to change now that she delivered _exactly who she is_. If you want to stay in this relationship, the best you can hope for is that she meet you half way. Come up with *shared* financial goals. Work *together* to come up with a budget that you are *both* content with.


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I think just listening, especially active listening, could get them on a better track. He does not need to agree with her, but just sincerely seek to understand her. I think that is his most hopeful path for avoiding weekend fatherhood.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm all for seeking to understand while at the same time maintining his truth position. Seek to understand without compromising his truth, integrity, or principles.


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## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I'm all for seeking to understand while at the same time maintining his truth position. Seek to understand without compromising his truth, integrity, or principles.


I would just focus on listening and trying to understand. 

Yes, there are some financial realities to keep in mind. But when women feel listened to and understood, they tend to be a lot more open to concerns of the husband. 

Go first, OP. Listen and sincerely seek to understand first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

londonguy said:


> I was seeing a counsellor during a breakup we had some years ago, I think the counsellor was puzzled by this but she didn't find it unhealthy *as long as I had some limit to which I was willing to hurt myself to revive the relationship*.


This seems to be a common theme with you. You 'hurting yourself' to kiss her ass and get her to deign to take you back or forgive you. 

Have you read the book No More Mr Nice Guy? You sound like a perfect candidate for its knowledge.

https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


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## Blossom Leigh

In order to listen and understand, he must own and stand in his own truth. It is from there good decisions and understanding happen. Otherwise he is pulled to and fro with her whims. His truth must be his anchor, true north, etc. He has a vision of where he wants to go. He just needs to trust himself that it is reasonable and good and not move off that mark.


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## turnera

londonguy said:


> I'm the one who created the current situation when I mentioned D but I think sticking to my some points like financials is a must. Also I can't agree for the sake of agreeing on not having gone out enough, we've gone out plenty.
> 
> She doesn't want to see me. Lets hope I can turn this ugly situation around...


Here's what's happening. She has decided she wants a tall, dark, and handsome and RICH husband who treats her to the luxuries to which she feels she deserves (her mom probably raised her to believe she would get this), and you instead are a weak, sickly, only mildly successful man who (gasp!) has to watch the budget.

It's a fair bet that she has her eye on someone at work who meets these criteria and she has started comparing you to him and you are failing because, well, you're not a billionaire with no health problems.

You married a princess, you continued to set her on that pedestal, but now reality (money, health) is setting in and you're no longer able to keep up the charade she's had in her mind all these years, so you're not worth keeping around. She'll send you on your way, now that she has a baby coming, she'll keep the baby, you'll get to see it every other weekend, and you'll continue to give her half your money so that she can be free to seek out the 'proper' husband she deserves.

Honestly, she sounds like a spoiled brat. And you can find better. You WILL find better. You just can't see it right now because she's been pulling you around by the nosehairs for so long that all you can see is your desire to someday, somehow, someway, finally make her happy, and YOU as a person have disappeared. You have been conditioned to believe ALL problems in your marriage are all.your.fault and don't you dare forget it. You jump in WAY too quickly to accept blame and kiss ass. NOT healthy.

Instead of moaning and groaning about her not seeing you, why not spend this time focusing on YOU and your health and your therapy and preparing for that interview so you can go get an awesome job and get out and meet people who will be GRATEFUL for all the good qualities you DO have.


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## Lila

jld said:


> The best clue to people's future behavior is their past behavior.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This thread and your post reminded me of my neighbor and his car. Great analogy for the OP, IMO.

About five years ago, our neighbor decided to purchase a brand new Maserati. It was his dream car. He didn't think twice about shelling out 80K to purchase it but he complained constantly about the higher overall costs involved in owning it. Extra money for premium gas. Higher costs for oil changes and regular maintenance. A small fortune for engine repairs. I clearly remember when he had to replace the tires on the car. He ranted for 30 minutes straight about 'those thieves' (a.k.a. the tire salespeople) because his tire replacement cost about 2k. :surprise: The rant only lasted 30 minutes because H interrupted him by saying 'dude, you bought a MAS-ER-A-TI'. That's all he said......and the neighbor understood what he meant clearly. Neighbor got exactly what he wanted - a high performance, luxury vehicle but he didn't take into account what it meant to OWN a high performance, luxury vehicle.


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## Blossom Leigh

Turnera makes a great point about the possibility there is another guy sniffing around.


Love the Maserati analogy. Yes, if you are going to buy luxury, you have to take all that comes with it. But something tells me this girl "ain't all that." She's not "old money" married to a pauper. She's gotten this in her head recently.


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## Lila

Blossom Leigh said:


> Love the Maserati analogy. Yes, if you are going to buy luxury, you have to take all that comes with it. But something tells me this girl "ain't all that." She's not "old money" married to a pauper. She's gotten this in her head recently.


I don't think she's 'old money' either but she does have a good job according to the OP. 



londonguy said:


> To put more context in the bold part, demands tend to be financially demanding, it's not about who takes out the garbage. I think if we go on like this we'll never buy a house nor will we have a safety net, she likes to spend exactly at full capacity (or even above capacity from time to time), *we both have very good jobs and we should be saving for a house and investing not spending our income on things we do not need.* I like a good time too and shiny stuff but I can't see why e.g. 3 (very) expensive presents per year are a priority at this point, I don't think this is the "best" to be honest. I find the bold part a dismissive reply to a serious matter that deserves a proper discussion. To be honest I never raised similar financial demands, because if at the end of the day girls like diamonds and boys like cars, we'd both be filling for bankruptcy now. But again this is more long term and not much correlated to the current situation.


Reading this post brings back memories for me. My husband and I were exactly like you two. One a saver, the other a spender, both with good incomes. 

OP, does your wife want to buy a house? If so, then this is where you can start your financial discussion. It's a common goal.


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## Evinrude58

jld said:


> Listening to her, truly listening, and not getting defensive, could create that leverage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Omg
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Blossom Leigh said:


> Turnera makes a great point about the possibility there is another guy sniffing around.
> 
> 
> Love the Maserati analogy. Yes, if you are going to buy luxury, you have to take all that comes with it. But something tells me this girl "ain't all that." She's not "old money" married to a pauper. She's gotten this in her head recently.


I'm not sure any guy is sniffing around. I just think she's not getting the Kardassian life right now, so she's looking around to see who IS getting that life, and wanting it.


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## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> I'm not sure any guy is sniffing around. I just think she's not getting the Kardassian life right now, so she's looking around to see who IS getting that life, and wanting it.


Gotcha.... Still a possibility as is envy of others from your clarified intent. I could see either happening.


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## Evinrude58

I hope the meeting went well. Have you noticed your common theme during this entire thread?

It's all MY fault.
She is unwilling to budge an inch on spending money.
You are scared ****less you are going to loose your wife and baby.
I would be, too, but it's counterproductive.

You think she was going to slow down spending once the baby was born? Ha ha ha ha ha ha. That's crazy. 

Ask yourself this: is your wife showing that she cares one tiny bit about YOU? Did she care you were sick? Does she care your baby has a dad? Does she care about financial stability? 

The answer, if you're waffling, is hell no!

You will be unhappy for a while until you accept that she is gone, but it's clear to me that you will never be happy with her with you. I'm terribly sorry about your baby, but you're getting what was coming regardless. It would have happened later of not now.

Your wife owns no blame. There is nothing you can do with someone who accepts no blame when clearly in the wrong. She won't let you. She knows with the baby, she still has your money. After divorce, she can search for a guy with more.
I'm very sorry. Your only fault was marrying a narcissist. Lots of us have. Things will get better once you accept this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

We met, we discussed both the incident and financials.

She looked genuinely very hurt by the D incident and saying in front of her friends that I may not be there during new year's eve to do an operation. I didn't attempt to excuse myself (I genuinely think I'm at fault here), I accepted responsibility, told her that her trust is very important and I want a shot to regain it. I said I'll do anything it takes (IC, cut other activities, exercise) for her to have an environment where she feels like home and that she and the baby are my priorities. She said trusting me again is extremely hard but she will think about it.

What she is worried about is that these incidents do not show a behavioural trait which I need to work on but rather inherently bad character. I told her she needs to give me the chance to show otherwise.

For financials we agreed in having a joint account where any non-recurring transaction (not rent, bills etc) will need approval by both, it's not for buying something one or the other needs but for joint expenses. She avoided calling me stingy this time. What she proposed is completely fair so I agreed.

Her main points where not hearing D ever again, feeling respected and having faith that I'll be there when she needs me. 

Fingers crossed she gives me that chance to reconcile and make amends. I'm very sincere in my intention to amend this but it's 100% up to her to let me do it.

Right now I don't think it makes sense to contact her as we met and discussed, I'll wait for her to contact me.


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## londonguy

It's not the case, I'm 100% certain she's not seeing anyone nor is there someone she fancies.



turnera said:


> Here's what's happening. She has decided she wants a tall, dark, and handsome and RICH husband who treats her to the luxuries to which she feels she deserves (her mom probably raised her to believe she would get this), and you instead are a weak, sickly, only mildly successful man who (gasp!) has to watch the budget.
> 
> It's a fair bet that she has her eye on someone at work who meets these criteria and she has started comparing you to him and you are failing because, well, you're not a billionaire with no health problems.


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## Blossom Leigh

Commit to being the best husband and father regardless of her actions. That will serve you in life at all levels, just dont forget that as long as you are standing on reasonable ground you do not have to move your position when she chooses to be unreasonable.


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## londonguy

I've been trying to pitch a house!!! 

She likes houses at the upper band of what we'll ever be able to afford IF we are to ever start saving for a house (which is not happening).

How did your husband discuss this with you?, I'm all ears :grin2:




Lila said:


> I don't think she's 'old money' either but she does have a good job according to the OP.
> 
> 
> 
> Reading this post brings back memories for me. My husband and I were exactly like you two. One a saver, the other a spender, both with good incomes.
> 
> OP, does your wife want to buy a house? If so, then this is where you can start your financial discussion. It's a common goal.


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## Blossom Leigh

Adding a house on top of a budget paycheck to paycheck is very risky. Make sure yall get well prepared. Have either of you owned before?


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## londonguy

Blossom Leigh said:


> Commit to being the best husband and father regardless of her actions. That will serve you in life at all levels, just dont forget that as long as you are standing on reasonable ground you do not have to move your position when she chooses to be unreasonable.


 I didn't budge to anything unreasonable on the financials front yesterday, today nothing unreasonable popped up re financials. I'm not agreeing to anything for the sake of agreeing.

I'm ready to commit but tbh I hope it's with her and my kid


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## londonguy

I want to add a house on top of a budget, I think it makes complete sense. She owns (in a different county), I don't own.



Blossom Leigh said:


> Adding a house on top of a budget paycheck to paycheck is very risky. Make sure yall get well prepared. Have either of you owned before?


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## Blossom Leigh

Is it a rental for her?


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## Evinrude58

And once again, you'll cave and get her whatever she wants. This is not healthy, sir.
It is NOT SUSTAINABLE.

She is right for no more I want a divorce comments. You are right in wanting a home you can afford, and building a safety net in the bank. 

So far, she's going to get everything she wants. As said, work on being a better husband. A better husband is not a doormat, is not weak, is slow to anger, is smart enough to put his health first. If you want to save, SAVE. It's pretty darned simple. She's not going to. When she goes too far, calmly put your foot down. Don't second guess yourself all the time.

Please, don't be so naive as to say 100% sure there's nobody who catches her interest. She is, after all, contemplating divorce with your baby in her belly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

One difference here is that the lion share of restaurants/theatres etc is paid by me, it's not 50-50 or split according to income at the moment like it was between you & your husband.



Lila said:


> OP's financial disagreements with his wife remind me a lot of the issues I had early on with my H. I'm a big believer in 'work to live' not 'live to work'. My husband is a saver and I'm a spender, always have been, probably always will be. He knew this going into the relationship and he still _chose_ to proceed with the marriage regardless.
> 
> Like the OP's wife, I too enjoy going out to nice restaurants, taking frequent trips, going to concerts, etc.... Considering that I was doing all of those things on my salary alone prior to getting married (while paying for the rent and utilities on my apartment, food, fuel, etc.) I saw no reason why things would change after marriage. Imagine my surprise when, after getting married, my husband started "laying down the law" with how _our_ money was going to be spent. See the problem wasn't that we had different ideas with how money should be handled, the problem was that he thought his way was right and mine was wrong. Our battles were epic. It wasn't until we both sat down and agreed on *joint* financial goals that we were able to agree on the budget (and how money was spent). We don't save as much as H would like but we also don't spend as much as I would like. It's called a compromise. I don't think our relationship would have survived a year otherwise.
> 
> OP if your wife was like this before you married, then you're in for a load of hurt if you think she's going to miraculously change because she's now married to you. TBH, you married her knowing exactly what you were getting and it's not fair to ask her to change now that she delivered _exactly who she is_. If you want to stay in this relationship, the best you can hope for is that she meet you half way. Come up with *shared* financial goals. Work *together* to come up with a budget that you are *both* content with.


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## londonguy

She didn't bring up any of the cheapass comments or related demands today after I stood firm yesterday.

Having a joint account for joint expenses where both need to ok a non-recurring expense is a far cry from budging. This is all she asked for today in the finance front, I thought it's fair and agreed.



Evinrude58 said:


> And once again, you'll cave and get her whatever she wants. This is not healthy, sir.
> It is NOT SUSTAINABLE.
> 
> She is right for no more I want a divorce comments. You are right in wanting a home you can afford, and building a safety net in the bank.
> 
> So far, she's going to get everything she wants. As said, work on being a better husband. A better husband is not a doormat, is not weak, is slow to anger, is smart enough to put his health first. If you want to save, SAVE. It's pretty darned simple. She's not going to. When she goes too far, calmly put your foot down. Don't second guess yourself all the time.
> 
> Please, don't be so naive as to say 100% sure there's nobody who catches her interest. She is, after all, contemplating divorce with your baby in her belly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

Yes, we both rent (the same house)



Blossom Leigh said:


> Is it a rental for her?


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## Blossom Leigh

Yall both rent the house she owns?


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## Lila

londonguy said:


> I've been trying to pitch a house!!!
> 
> She likes houses at the upper band of what we'll ever be able to afford IF we start to save for a house.
> 
> How did your husband discuss this with you?, I'm all ears :grin2:


LOL, your story sounds so very familiar :grin2:

Everything came together for us when we talked about our goals. 

My husband wanted a 3,000 sq ft home with a basement, two luxury vehicles, and retirement by age 50.

I wanted house in the city (size didn't matter), two vacations a year, and a nice social life.

We compromised based on our income/expenses. We were double-income-no-kids (dinks) living in a 600 sq ft apartment well below our means. We determined our needs budget (rent, utilities, car payments, fuel, food, student loans, rainy day savings, any credit cards) and anything left over was transferred to our 'wants' budget. We created a 3-year, 5-year and 10-year home purchase savings plan based on the 'wants' budget. Basically determined that we could buy a starter home in a relatively nice area if we saved %15 of our income over a 5 year period. The remaining 'wants' budget allowed us to have one really nice vacation and a few weekend getaways a year; one nice event and a few hangouts(movies, bar to listen to music,etc...) a month; and clothes, etc...

Aside from the house, what other goals do you two share?


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## londonguy

Today when we met I went with active listening, indeed it's a better approach when aiming to reconcile 



jld said:


> Why were you arguing with her? Active listening would have been more effective.


 It's not a crime that she's hot :smile2: . I'm not into her for the looks though of course I definite like the way she looks. During a (long enough) period when she had put on significant weight, I still wanted her.
Same with her & me, when we met I had a 6-pack then I doubled in size, she stayed, some years down the line I lost all extra weight.

I'd argue lifestyle demands are somewhat separate to looks



jld said:


> Look, you are not entitled to a beautiful woman, either. You wanted beauty, and she expects a certain lifestyle. If she can get it elsewhere, she is not going to stay with you. Market economics.
> 
> I think both of your priorities are wrong, not just hers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

Omg, I want an early retirement too ! (at 55 as UK's equivalent of 401k's do not allow withdrawal before 55). I don't view this as the day to call it quits tbh, rather as the day I can stop doing BAU and I can start doing things I find fun that may or may not bring sufficient income.

I'm not into luxury vehicles but I'd appreciate a nice garden

We share a lot, the work-life balance targets are the same, we have a decent overlap in what we like to watch, eat. We both love animals, both of us have a similar ethics code and ethics boundaries. Very similar backgrounds too.
Of course we are different too, I read FT she reads what Kate Moss did at Dailymail, I like mountain hiking while she doesn't.
Socially she's stronger than me and she's helped me there, I've helped her with her career, we make a nice team.



Lila said:


> LOL, your story sounds so very familiar :grin2:
> 
> Everything came together for us when we talked about our goals.
> 
> My husband wanted a 3,000 sq ft home with a basement, two luxury vehicles, and retirement by age 50.
> 
> I wanted house in the city (size didn't matter), two vacations a year, and a nice social life.
> 
> We compromised based on our income/expenses. We were double-income-no-kids (dinks) living in a 600 sq ft apartment well below our means. We determined our needs budget (rent, utilities, car payments, fuel, food, student loans, rainy day savings, any credit cards) and anything left over was transferred to our 'wants' budget. We created a 3-year, 5-year and 10-year home purchase savings plan based on the 'wants' budget. Basically determined that we could buy a starter home in a relatively nice area if we saved %15 of our income over a 5 year period. The remaining 'wants' budget allowed us to have one really nice vacation and a few weekend getaways a year; one nice event and a few hangouts(movies, bar to listen to music,etc...) a month; and clothes, etc...
> 
> Aside from the house, what other goals do you two share?


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## londonguy

She owns a house in a different country. In the UK we both rent (the same house)



Blossom Leigh said:


> Yall both rent the house she owns?


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## turnera

So...SHE said that it was rude for you to schedule SURGERY for your MEDICAL CONDITION over the new year break and that because you were daring to take care of your HEALTH, you were being selfish and 'not being there for her' by not guaranteeing her a fancy New Year's party?

Do I have that right?

Oh, and you AGREED with her that you were being selfish by daring to schedule surgery?


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## londonguy

She said it was wrong to mention that I'll do it (definite) as while it was a posibility (even a likely scenario), it was conditional on how well the antibiotics would work. Truth be told, I said it out of spite. 

So while I could play the game that this is not why I said it, I knew I said it out of spite. I thought honesty is the best approach so I told her and said I shouldn't had said it out of spite.



turnera said:


> So...SHE said that it was rude for you to schedule SURGERY for your MEDICAL CONDITION over the new year break and that because you were daring to take care of your HEALTH, you were being selfish and 'not being there for her' by not guaranteeing her a fancy New Year's party?
> 
> Do I have that right?
> 
> Oh, and you AGREED with her that you were being selfish by daring to schedule surgery?


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## turnera

That's not my point. SHE was mad because you said you might be gone on NYE. SHE cares about HER happiness, not YOURS. You don't get it, do you? A woman who loves her husband's first concern would be getting him healthy.

Read No More Mr Nice Guy. You really need it. You have been conditioned to kiss her ass and apologize. It's all you know now. And that is VERY unappealing; the more you kiss her ass, the less she's going to want you. She may SAY it's good that you're apologizing, but trust me, you're pushing yourself out of the picture.

And I didn't say she was seeing or wanting another guy. I said she is seeing what they HAVE, and wanting THAT. You have become her ticket up or down and right now she sees you as her ticket down.


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## Blossom Leigh

londonguy said:


> Today when we met I went with active listening, indeed it's a better approach when aiming to reconcile
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a crime that she's hot :smile2: . I'm not into her for the looks though of course I definite like the way she looks. During a (long enough) period when she had put on significant weight, I still wanted her.
> Same with her & me, when we met I had a 6-pack then I doubled in size, she stayed, some years down the line I lost all extra weight.
> 
> I'd argue lifestyle demands are somewhat separate to looks


Is there anything you view her doing right now as unreasonable? Or is it only on your side


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## jld

londonguy said:


> It's not a crime that she's hot :smile2: . I'm not into her for the looks though of course I definite like the way she looks. During a (long enough) period when she had put on significant weight, I still wanted her.
> Same with her & me, when we met I had a 6-pack then I doubled in size, she stayed, some years down the line I lost all extra weight.
> 
> I'd argue lifestyle demands are somewhat separate to looks


Beauty is not a crime at all; it is an asset. And it can be useful in attracting a wealthier spouse.

It sounds like things have settled down for you. Glad to hear it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RoseAglow

OP, I am glad that your talk went fairly well. 

I think you need to go and read this link, so you can see what you're doing to drive her away: Love Busters

She also has bad behavior, but you aren't the one staying away. You have driven her away. She is *really* pissed off at you right now. I am not sure if I've ever seen a pregnant wife leave her husband without infidelity or physical abuse occurring, on any of the boards I read, at any point in my years of reading. Pregnant women want to nest, they are trying to bring their family together.

I agree with jld that your wife has a strong character. She also has a good job, and a strong support system who will help her if she decides to give you that divorce. She has the best possible situation for a young mother who wants to divorce. 

If my husband threatened divorce multiple times, then threw tantrums in front of my friends and talked spitefully about leaving me alone on NYE, while I was pregnant? Maybe you'd be alone on NYE, you certainly wouldn't be with me. So I fully understand where she's coming from and why she's staying away. 

I disagree with most of the posters who are trying to get you focused on her behavior. She has bad behavior in spades, don't get me wrong. But focusing on her right now will get you divorced, as she is already literally out the door. If you want to stay married, right now you need to continue to clean up your side of the street.

If you aspire to be a grown adult, you need to stop the tantrums. I very strongly suspect that you've thrown tantrums for a long time. If your wife is trying to ignore you by putting on headphones, why are trying to push her by continuing to talk at her? Your wife left you, wouldn't speak to you for days, and when she finally did, you argued with her! Stop trying to force your will on her. You can learn to resolve issues in a much better way.

I am being harsh right now, but it's important that you see that it's not just that last threat of divorce that pushed her out. I am not surprised that she is also immature and not handling things well. Of course not, we tend to seek our own levels. If she handled things more maturely, she would have never tolerated any of your tantrums. If you were more mature, you would never have fought over going out against doctors orders, you simply would have stayed in. You both react to terrible behavior by acting terribly. This has probably been going on for a long time. Your wife finally put a stop to the cycle by moving out. This is an opportunity to fix things and for the two of you to grow together.

I think the link I gave you will help you. You might also check out the Basic Concepts, to learn more about conflict resolution and emotional needs. Right off the bat I can see that your wife needs recreational companionship and financial support. You can learn to negotiate ways for both spouses yo get their needs met. The website goes over the basics, but there are books that in depth and are often recommended: Love Busters is one, His Needs. Her Needs is the other.

It's possible that you will clean up your behavior and she won't change, but it's highly unlikely, in my opinion. She is talking to you; she's pregnant; you have a long history together. Both of you are better together, as long as you both are able to learn better behavior. If you start, she's likely to follow, and even if she doesn't, you'll be better off. 

I do hope that you're feeling better. Hopefully you'll get some downtime while she's away and you can get some rest. It will be much easier to move ahead once you feel better.


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## londonguy

Today she was very reasonable - course I do not know if she wants to reconcile 



Blossom Leigh said:


> Is there anything you view her doing right now as unreasonable? Or is it only on your side


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## londonguy

She had plenty of chances for that, especially when I was on scholarship it was easy to do that. she didn't do it then, I have no reason to believe she'll do it now.

I wouldn't say that things have settled, we talked and she'll think about reconciling. I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best



jld said:


> Beauty is not a crime at all; it is an asset. And it can be useful in attracting a wealthier spouse.
> 
> It sounds like things have settled down for you. Glad to hear it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

Thanks for the link (will go through it tomorrow) & your advice. Just to clarify, tantrum was not in front of her friends of course.



RoseAglow said:


> OP, I am glad that your talk went fairly well.
> 
> I think you need to go and read this link, so you can see what you're doing to drive her away: Love Busters
> 
> She also has bad behavior, but you aren't the one staying away. You have driven her away. She is *really* pissed off at you right now. I am not sure if I've ever seen a pregnant wife leave her husband without infidelity or physical abuse occurring, on any of the boards I read, at any point in my years of reading. Pregnant women want to nest, they are trying to bring their family together.
> 
> I agree with jld that your wife has a strong character. She also has a good job, and a strong support system who will help her if she decides to give you that divorce. She has the best possible situation for a young mother who wants to divorce.
> 
> If my husband threatened divorce multiple times, then threw tantrums in front of my friends and talked spitefully about leaving me alone on NYE, while I was pregnant? Maybe you'd be alone on NYE, you certainly wouldn't be with me. So I fully understand where she's coming from and why she's staying away.
> 
> I disagree with most of the posters who are trying to get you focused on her behavior. She has bad behavior in spades, don't get me wrong. But focusing on her right now will get you divorced, as she is already literally out the door. If you want to stay married, right now you need to continue to clean up your side of the street.
> 
> If you aspire to be a grown adult, you need to stop the tantrums. I very strongly suspect that you've thrown tantrums for a long time. If your wife is trying to ignore you by putting on headphones, why are trying to push her by continuing to talk at her? Your wife left you, wouldn't speak to you for days, and when she finally did, you argued with her! Stop trying to force your will on her. You can learn to resolve issues in a much better way.
> 
> I am being harsh right now, but it's important that you see that it's not just that last threat of divorce that pushed her out. I am not surprised that she is also immature and not handling things well. Of course not, we tend to seek our own levels. If she handled things more maturely, she would have never tolerated any of your tantrums. If you were more mature, you would never have fought over going out against doctors orders, you simply would have stayed in. You both react to terrible behavior by acting terribly. This has probably been going on for a long time. Your wife finally put a stop to the cycle by moving out. This is an opportunity to fix things and for the two of you to grow together.
> 
> I think the link I gave you will help you. You might also check out the Basic Concepts, to learn more about conflict resolution and emotional needs. Right off the bat I can see that your wife needs recreational companionship and financial support. You can learn to negotiate ways for both spouses yo get their needs met. The website goes over the basics, but there are books that in depth and are often recommended: Love Busters is one, His Needs. Her Needs is the other.
> 
> It's possible that you will clean up your behavior and she won't change, but it's highly unlikely, in my opinion. She is talking to you; she's pregnant; you have a long history together. Both of you are better together, as long as you both are able to learn better behavior. If you start, she's likely to follow, and even if she doesn't, you'll be better off.
> 
> I do hope that you're feeling better. Hopefully you'll get some downtime while she's away and you can get some rest. It will be much easier to move ahead once you feel better.


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## londonguy

RoseAglow thanks for the link, I read that website today, wish I had read it yesterday before we met actually.

No news from her so far


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## RoseAglow

@londonguy, pretty much all of us wished we knew about emotional needs and love busters earlier, you're not alone! Now you know, and you can do things differently. I think you'll find that your relationship will get much better.

Right now, your challenge is to win back your wife. You might read up on Plan A. It doesn't really apply to you entirely, because (as far as you know!) you don't have a cheating wife. You do have an estranged wife though, and it might give you done ideas on how to win her back. 

Honestly, in your shoes I would probably write directly to Dr Harley ([email protected]) and ask for advice from the expert. He and his wife have a radio show (they also make it available on their website) where they read the emails they get, and sometimes call the writers, to offer advice. Put your phone number in the email if you're willing to talk to them. I've written them before and received advice. It's all free. 

I think you're going to need to reach out a little (not a lot!) to your wife. Are you feeling better physically? If you are, I recommend inviting her to spend NYE together. Tell her that you'd like to bring in the new year together, begin a new, improved marriage where you can provide care and meet her needs. (Eventually she will provide care for you and meet your needs, too, but for now, stick to what you'll do for her.) Talk about being together: you, her, and baby.

If you can refrain from arguing with her and doing any of the love-busting behavior, I think she'll be back soon. She might decline spending NYE with you; if she does, be graceful. Just let her know you love her and that you'd like to rebuild with her in the New Year.

Best of luck! Please let us know how it goes!


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## jld

Such a great post, Rose! Could be copied and pasted on many different threads, much to the benefit of TAM!

Please listen to Rose's wise advice, London!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## londonguy

She texted me today, asked to meet. It looks like she wants to give reconciliation a go :smile2:

knock on wood but it looks like I have the chance to do what I promised, no more mention of D, be more respectful in front of her friends and give the the security she needs especially during pregnancy.

There's a lot I need to work on from now on and there's stuff she can work on too but it a better position to be in compared to last week.

At last I'll get some decent sleep tonight :grin2:


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## Evinrude58

Good to hear! I hope you both can make the effort to compromise on things. Try not to be too eager to look for reassurance, or chase her.
Just try to be you. Get back to normal. No arguing, just be thoughtful of her needs and your own. Make a decision and stick to it in a respectful way.
Good luck. I know this is a load off your shoulders! ..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RoseAglow

That's great news, londonguy! Don't be a stranger, please post and let us know how it goes!


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## londonguy

Physically I'm well enough to have a dinner or invite friends over and we will spend NYE together!

I'll talk to a counsellor I talked to in the past and I'll work on what I promised. She also sounded more realistic regarding financials today, perhaps perhaps she felt like making a step to meet mid-way.

It's really good to have have this chance.



RoseAglow said:


> @londonguy, pretty much all of us wished we knew about emotional needs and love busters earlier, you're not alone! Now you know, and you can do things differently. I think you'll find that your relationship will get much better.
> 
> Right now, your challenge is to win back your wife. You might read up on Plan A. It doesn't really apply to you entirely, because (as far as you know!) you don't have a cheating wife. You do have an estranged wife though, and it might give you done ideas on how to win her back.
> 
> Honestly, in your shoes I would probably write directly to Dr Harley ([email protected]) and ask for advice from the expert. He and his wife have a radio show (they also make it available on their website) where they read the emails they get, and sometimes call the writers, to offer advice. Put your phone number in the email if you're willing to talk to them. I've written them before and received advice. It's all free.
> 
> I think you're going to need to reach out a little (not a lot!) to your wife. Are you feeling better physically? If you are, I recommend inviting her to spend NYE together. Tell her that you'd like to bring in the new year together, begin a new, improved marriage where you can provide care and meet her needs. (Eventually she will provide care for you and meet your needs, too, but for now, stick to what you'll do for her.) Talk about being together: you, her, and baby.
> 
> If you can refrain from arguing with her and doing any of the love-busting behavior, I think she'll be back soon. She might decline spending NYE with you; if she does, be graceful. Just let her know you love her and that you'd like to rebuild with her in the New Year.
> 
> Best of luck! Please let us know how it goes!


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## londonguy

Thanks ! I didn't contact her, she made the contact, I didn't have anything meaningful to add so I didn't contact her, I made my case so it was for her to choose whether she wanted to give a second chance or not.

This is a load off my shoulders for sure !



Evinrude58 said:


> Good to hear! I hope you both can make the effort to compromise on things. Try not to be too eager to look for reassurance, or chase her.
> Just try to be you. Get back to normal. No arguing, just be thoughtful of her needs and your own. Make a decision and stick to it in a respectful way.
> Good luck. I know this is a load off your shoulders! ..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58

Lg,

Have you considered "rat-holing" some money away? That might be a good way for you to build a little peace-of-mind savings that your wife won't know about. Not to be deceitful, just to keep your family safe.
Just a thought. I liked to keep a little cash in my safe when I did work on the side, to use for gifts or needed items.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Have you gotten No More Mr Nice Guy yet?


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## Blossom Leigh

londonguy said:


> Thanks ! I didn't contact her, she made the contact, I didn't have anything meaningful to add so I didn't contact her, I made my case so it was for her to choose whether she wanted to give a second chance or not.
> 
> This is a load off my shoulders for sure !


Among dealing with her with integrity and sticking to your ground on the necessity for financial balance, aka your truth drum, THIS was key. You stopped chasing. In effect, you opened up space for her to move towards you. Remember this nugget in the future. Balance standing in truth with kindness, say your peace, then leave her alone, opening space for her to choose you. This is where many make a mistake because its scary if you fear abondonment. But see... It worked 

I am VERY glad she is doing her part on the financial perspective. That's also key or this reconciliation wouldn't be reconciliation but instead personal acquiesence on your part. So glad yall are coming together to make this right. Bravo!


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