# "Degrading Sex"



## UMP

Another poster mentioned that her husband turns "hot sex into degrading sex." I think this is an important topic. In my opinion ANY sex act, providing the partner allows it, is never degrading. I think this can be a hang up for many women, because I assume women and not men feel somehow "degraded" during a particular sex act.

I myself am a facial kind of guy. I would venture to say that many women think this is degrading. Why? I know the "facial" is a bit weird and kinky but I think many men are afraid to do this to there wives because of past rejections or afraid they are crossing some sort of line.
I don't think there should be ANY boundaries for sex in marriage. Crossing lines is what great sex is made of. Variety is the spice of life and so on and so forth.

1. How can we men push those lines in a way that does not make our spouse feel "degraded."

2. Why do women feel "degraded" during a particular sex act with their husbands who have vowed to be with them and ONLY them for the rest of their lives? Why would ANY sex act in the marriage bond make any woman feel degraded?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

It's not just a woman thing. Some men would feel degraded by certain acts too (ex. oral on her after sex, anal on him, some even just with the use of toys bigger than he is)

Married doesn't mean you have no boundaries. Your body is still yours and should be respected.


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## GA HEART

"Degrading" sex would be more about the attitude to me than an actual act.


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## UMP

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It's not just a woman thing. Some men would feel degraded by certain acts too (ex. oral on her after sex, anal on him, some even just with the use of toys bigger than he is)
> 
> Married doesn't mean you have no boundaries. Your body is still yours and should be respected.


My wife can string me up upside down with a 12 inch dildo up my butt and I would not feel "degraded" providing it turned her on. That's just me.


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## UMP

GA HEART said:


> "Degrading" sex would be more about the attitude to me than an actual act.


Interesting.
Please elaborate and be more specific, if you can.


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## Jellybeans

UMP said:


> Another poster mentioned that her husband turns "hot sex into degrading sex." I think this is an important topic. In my opinion ANY sex act, providing the partner allows it, is never degrading.


I respectfully disagree. To say no sex can turn into something degrading is a complete blanket statement. 



UMP said:


> I don't think there should be ANY *boundaries* for sex in marriage. Crossing lines is what great sex is made of. Variety is the spice of life and so on and so forth.


Disagree again. 



UMP said:


> 2. Why do women feel "degraded" during a particular sex act with their husbands who have vowed to be with them and ONLY them for the rest of their lives? Why would ANY sex act in the marriage bond make any woman feel degraded?


:slap:

Do what works for you but think that what works in YOUR marriage is applicable to ALL marriages.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

UMP said:


> My wife can string me up upside down with a 12 inch dildo up my butt and I would not feel "degraded" providing it turned her on. That's just me.


But that's you. Everyone has their own limits. I think anything that both people want to try should be on the table no matter how degrading it might seem to others but if one person is a "no", that's where you draw the line.


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## KathyBatesel

Eh... I think some acts are inherently degrading. 

What turns you on about facials, for instance? It's an element of power, I believe, and it's not simply about being more powerful than your partner but being able to "show" it in a powerful way. 

That same act of ejaculating on your partner's body elsewhere, say on the chest, is not as powerful and might even be a reversal of the power dynamics. 

So some acts automatically degrade the status of the other person. The other person might willingly accept the lower status as an act of love or a validation of their own self-perception, but it doesn't change the power balance of these acts.


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## Jellybeans

UMP said:


> My wife can string me up upside down with a 12 inch dildo up my butt and I would not feel "degraded" providing it turned her on. That's just me.


Exactly. That's "just" you. What is ok in your marriage isn't ok for every other married couple on the planet.


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## UMP

Jellybeans said:


> I respectfully disagree. To say no sex can turn into something degrading is a complete blanket statement.


Hence my questions:

1. How can we men push those lines in a way that does not make our spouse feel "degraded."

2. Why do women feel "degraded" during a particular sex act with their husbands who have vowed to be with them and ONLY them for the rest of their lives? Why would ANY sex act in the marriage bond make any woman feel degraded? 

Please be more specific, if you can.


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## UMP

Jellybeans said:


> Exactly. That's "just" you. What is ok in your marriage isn't ok for every other married couple on the planet.


That's fine and that's why I asked the questions.
I want to understand why women can feel "degraded" by certain sex acts in a marriage with a man who has vowed to be with her and only her for the rest of theirs lives.


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## Jellybeans

Which is what people are responding to and have answered. You don't see eye to eye because you don't believe in on a base level. You do not think any sex is degrading. So it's not likely you would "get it."

Just seems the question is meant to stir the board.


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## ChristianGrey

UMP said:


> My wife can string me up upside down with a 12 inch dildo up my butt and I would not feel "degraded" providing it turned her on. That's just me.


No, what you would actually _feel_ would not be degradation, if that was to happen to you. And walking around the office/town the next day would surely raise some brows and maybe chuckles.

Just stay away from porn.


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## UMP

KathyBatesel said:


> Eh... I think some acts are inherently degrading.
> 
> What turns you on about facials, for instance? It's an element of power, I believe, and it's not simply about being more powerful than your partner but being able to "show" it in a powerful way.
> 
> That same act of ejaculating on your partner's body elsewhere, say on the chest, is not as powerful and might even be a reversal of the power dynamics.
> 
> So some acts automatically degrade the status of the other person. The other person might willingly accept the lower status as an act of love or a validation of their own self-perception, but it doesn't change the power balance of these acts.


OK. What is so wrong about that? Remember, we are talking about sex with someone you have vowed to be with for the rest of your life, not a hooker. For me, I like the facial because it simply turns me on. It makes me randy just thinking about it. How could I be degrading my wife? This is the person I have vowed to take care of for the rest of my life and DO.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

UMP said:


> Hence my questions:
> 
> 1. How can we men push those lines in a way that does not make our spouse feel "degraded."
> 
> 2. Why do women feel "degraded" during a particular sex act with their husbands who have vowed to be with them and ONLY them for the rest of their lives? Why would ANY sex act in the marriage bond make any woman feel degraded?
> 
> Please be more specific, if you can.


1. Men and women should not push lines that are a no. They can discuss it and see if their partner wants to try but once they get that no, it should stop.

2. Men and women feel degraded for all kinds of reasons. When it's a sex act they do not want to do, when it crosses their boundaries, when they feel like their spouse is not considering their needs or respecting them, when they feel they are being made to act like a porn star instead of a partner. Depends on the person.


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## UMP

ChristianGrey said:


> No, what you would actually _feel_ would not be degradation, if that was to happen to you. And walking around the office/town the next day would surely raise some brows and maybe chuckles.
> 
> Just stay away from porn.


Don't do porn.


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## Jellybeans

I wasn't aware ChristianGrey was doing porn.


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## UMP

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> 1. Men and women should not push lines that are a no. They can discuss it and see if their partner wants to try but once they get that no, it should stop.
> 
> 2. Men and women feel degraded for all kinds of reasons. When it's a sex act they do not want to do, when it crosses their boundaries, when they feel like their spouse is not considering their needs or respecting them, when they feel they are being made to act like a porn star instead of a partner. Depends on the person.


I don't think any married couple should feel degraded during a sex act. If my wife wanted to do some strange thing to me, told me that it turns her on, I really don't care what it was. If it gets her horny and wet, I'm all in, period.
I guess that's my point. I think we should forget the word "degrading" in our married sex life and just try and enjoy the fun. It might help solve many problems.


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## Pooh Bear

UMP said:


> My wife can string me up upside down with a 12 inch dildo up my butt and I would not feel "degraded" providing it turned her on. That's just me.


Exactly. That's just you. I think that you need to talk with your wife to make sure she is comfortable with whatever you are doing. I would feel degraded if someone peed on me but some people find that a turn on. It is negotiating what is ok and what is not. Listening to your partner is important. Consent is important.


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## KathyBatesel

UMP said:


> OK. What is so wrong about that? Remember, we are talking about sex with someone you have vowed to be with for the rest of your life, not a hooker. For me, I like the facial because it simply turns me on. It makes me randy just thinking about it. How could I be degrading my wife? This is the person I have vowed to take care of for the rest of my life and DO.


What is so wrong is that she doesn't WANT you to take power over her. I already explained that the "degradation" is precisely because you upset the balance of your relationship. Who cares if you've vowed to take care of her and do? If you're insisting on something she hates, then you're not taking GOOD care of her, are you? Why should she trust a guy who says, "I'll take care of you" when he's all about upsetting the power imbalance in a way that STRIPS her of power? It doesn't matter if it turns you on, you might just have to confine yourself to fantasy if your partner's unwilling. 

One thing you might be able to do is to get her to imagine it and talk to you as if it's happening without actually going there. She might ask "Would it turn you on to explode on my face right now?" while you're in a missionary position, for instance. This might be something that she would be willing to do that honors your fantasies, too.


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## UMP

Jellybeans said:


> I wasn't aware ChristianGrey was doing porn.


Sorry, 
I meant to say that I do not do porn. Sure I screw up every now and again. However, 99% of the time, I do not look at porn.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

UMP said:


> I don't think any married couple should feel degraded during a sex act. If my wife wanted to do some strange thing to me, told me that it turns her on, I really don't care what it was. If it gets her horny and wet, I'm all in, period.
> I guess that's my point. I think we should forget the word "degrading" in our married sex life and just try and enjoy the fun. It might help solve many problems.


It could create a lot of problems when it's NOT fun and you feel used and disgusting because your partner doesn't care about how you feel. 

You can say nothing would degrade you and that's fine. Some acts cause pain, some are uncomfortable, some cause triggers to past events, some make you feel bad. Some you just flat out don't want to do. I don't want to get peed on, some people are into that. Not for me. For no big reason, just don't want to and that's ok. Your limits do not apply to everyone. 

If you have sex acts that are dealbreakers for you, ones you NEED to have in your life it is up to you to find a partner who enjoys it.


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## Middle of Everything

Agree with Jellybeans. Too many blanket statements. Every case is unique.

And Im not just agreeing with a woman to be a kiss up. I do think so women (and im sure men too) hide behind "degrading" etc in their sex lives as a way of not being open or examining themselves. Would be BORING.

But someones hangups are anothers enjoyable time in the sack. I myself feel im pretty open. Pegging? Sure ill try it. Going down on her after sex? If im not completely exhausted sure. But urine or fecal play? Hell no. Other people? Hell no. To others those are enjoyable. Extreme examples I know but not to some.

And to add, I disagree about the facial being about power. While I havent got the wife to try it yet, Ive thought about the motivation a lot. To me ejaculating anywhere on my wife externally is about enthusiasm and excitement. For me its all of a guys sexuality, lust, desire for his wife/partner summed up in one big "explosion" And sometimes a guy wants to share that. A wife being excited about that explosion and being excited to see it? HOT!! Now this is all me. I know for others it might not be the case. And no I dont believe this is motivated by porn. Not really a watcher at all and as Ive said I have though about the motivations for this for quite some time.

Conclusion? Like Jelly said, no blanket answers for everyone. And make sure your examing how you can open up too. My wife for instance wants me to do a strip tease type thing for her. Im no dancer. Think I would look like a fool. But if I try this for her, maybe some reciprocity. Shes even hinted at masturbating in front of me. Something that would turn me on.

So as ive completely rambled. Thats it. To each their own I guess.


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## UMP

KathyBatesel said:


> What is so wrong is that she doesn't WANT you to take power over her. I already explained that the "degradation" is precisely because you upset the balance of your relationship. Who cares if you've vowed to take care of her and do? If you're insisting on something she hates, then you're not taking GOOD care of her, are you? Why should she trust a guy who says, "I'll take care of you" when he's all about upsetting the power imbalance in a way that STRIPS her of power? It doesn't matter if it turns you on, you might just have to confine yourself to fantasy if your partner's unwilling.
> 
> One thing you might be able to do is to get her to imagine it and talk to you as if it's happening without actually going there. She might ask "Would it turn you on to explode on my face right now?" while you're in a missionary position, for instance. This might be something that she would be willing to do that honors your fantasies, too.


When did I say my wife does not like facials? She does.
I'm just wondering why some people think sex is degrading.
I don't understand. I have been married 23 years and am having the BEST FRIGGEN sex of my life. 
However, my devious mind wants more. I've got so much good stuff in my head I don't think I could exhaust the list in my lifetime.
I believe part of the reason our sex life is so good is that my wife seems to have joyously submitted to my deviant mind.
It's a wonderful thing!


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## Rowan

I think it's a bad idea to insist that our partner either "should" or "shouldn't" feel a certain way. Whether or not we wish our partner to feel a certain way is pretty irrelevant. What matters is whether or not they do. Dismissing your partner's feelings because you think they "shouldn't" have them is disrespectful. It's lacking in empathy. 

Understand that two people can feel differently about a situation without one of them being wrong.


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## ChristianGrey

Jellybeans said:


> I wasn't aware ChristianGrey was doing porn.


Ermm... I meant my friend told me...


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## UMP

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It could create a lot of problems when it's NOT fun and you feel used and disgusting because your partner doesn't care about how you feel.
> 
> You can say nothing would degrade you and that's fine. Some acts cause pain, some are uncomfortable, some cause triggers to past events, some make you feel bad. Some you just flat out don't want to do. I don't want to get peed on, some people are into that. Not for me. For no big reason, just don't want to and that's ok. Your limits do not apply to everyone.
> 
> If you have sex acts that are dealbreakers for you, ones you NEED to have in your life it is up to you to find a partner who enjoys it.


I do not think men or woman should feel degraded in a marriage sex act, providing they allow said act. My main point is, if your spouse wants to do something that turns them on, why not do it? I find pleasure in pleasing my wife. If it turns her on, it turns me on. How can pleasing my wife in our marriage bed regardless of how weird it is degrade me? I'm "allowing" it for her pleasure.


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## ChristianGrey

UMP said:


> Sorry,
> I meant to say that I do not do porn. Sure I screw up every now and again. However, 99% of the time, I do not look at porn.


How did you get that 99% calculation?

You mean you have some time allocated for watching porn and you only utilize 1% of that time to watch it?

Or when you have put on a porn you have your eyes closed for 99% of the time?

You are getting into the _LULZ_ zone now..


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## UMP

ChristianGrey said:


> How did you got that 99% calculation?
> 
> You mean you have some time allocated for watching porn and you only utilize 1% of that time to watch it?
> 
> Or when you have put on a porn you have your eyes closed for 99% of the time?
> 
> You are getting into the _LULZ_ zone now..


Good question. It means I RARELY fall into the temptation of watching porn.


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## UMP

Rowan said:


> I think it's a bad idea to insist that our partner either "should" or "shouldn't" feel a certain way. Whether or not we wish our partner to feel a certain way is pretty irrelevant. What matters is whether or not they do. Dismissing your partner's feelings because you think they "shouldn't" have them is disrespectful. It's lacking in empathy.
> 
> Understand that two people can feel differently about a situation without one of them being wrong.


How about this statement:
"A married couple would be a hell of a lot happier in their sex 
lives if they both willingly and joyfully submitted to each others sexual kinks."


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## Jellybeans

Once again, you are posting from the viewpoint that nothing is degrading nor should be. Ever.


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## Jellybeans

ChristianGrey said:


> You are getting into the _LULZ_ zone now..




This gave me a chuckle.


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## Blondilocks

I think we need to eliminate the word 'should' from the dictionary. It is nothing but a word used to induce guilt.


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## Cletus

Lila said:


> See #1. It's only degrading when the two people involved are not in agreement and he does the act anyways, thereby illustrating to her she's not important.


I agree completely, but this of course reinforces the OP's question.

Is every sexual act automatically degrading because one of you thinks it is? I won't go into the list of things my wife won't allow, but most people here find that list tame and completely mainstream. Does the term "degrading" really apply? And if not, where do you cross the line from being a repressed sexual partner to being the victim of degradation? 

It's like the definition of sexual harassment in the workplace that has now become the norm - the intent of the "harasser" is irrelevant. Ignorance is no defense, harassment is defined completely in the eyes of the harassed. Which seems to miss a big part of the definition of harassment, if you ask me. And perhaps degradation, too.


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## Rowan

UMP said:


> How about this statement:
> "A married couple would be a hell of a lot happier in their sex
> lives if they both willingly and joyfully submitted to each others sexual kinks."


While that may be true, it's still a bad plan to insist that your partner submit to your sexual kinks - or to insist that he or she "shouldn't" feel degraded by kinks they don't enjoy. While there are people who have no discernible boundaries with sex, most people do. 

For example, while it might turn his wife on, many men would feel degraded if she insisted that he be tied to a chair and watch while she had sex with another man. For her to insist that he shouldn't feel degraded by that - as if there was something wrong with him for not liking it - would simply be adding insult to injury. 

I think the key here is to find a partner who is sexually compatible with you. Build a relationship where_ both _of you are happy with your sexual expression. Either respect your partner's hard boundaries, or find a partner who shares your boundaries, or lack thereof.


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## phillybeffandswiss

UMP said:


> How about this statement:
> "A married couple would be a hell of a lot happier in their sex
> lives if they both willingly and joyfully submitted to each others sexual kinks."


You'd still be wrong.


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## UMP

Lila said:


> You don't. Typically, women who choose to do a sexual act out of their own volition will not find it degrading. It's degrading when the woman's negative opinion on the act is disregarded.



Why not allow more things and just try? My wife used to not like certain things. In time she started allowing these acts and has come to enjoy them. I think this is a key to our sexual success. I'm simply trying to impart to TAM an aspect to our married sex life that has transformed our marriage. Getting rid of the word or the feeling of "degrading" in our bed has worked wonders.


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## UMP

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You'd still be wrong.


Not wrong in my marriage.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Cletus said:


> Is every sexual act automatically degrading because one of you thinks it is? I won't go into the list of things my wife won't allow, but most people here find that list tame and completely mainstream. Does the term "degrading" really apply? And if not, where do you cross the line from being a repressed sexual partner to being the victim of degradation?


This is where compatibility is important. Nothing is universally degrading IMO. But if someone feels degraded doing certain sex acts, it's degrading to them. Might be a typical Monday night to someone else. All that matters is how the people doing the sex act feel about it.


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## UMP

Rowan said:


> For example, while it might turn his wife on, many men would feel degraded if she insisted that he be tied to a chair and watch while she had sex with another man. For her to insist that he shouldn't feel degraded by that - as if there was something wrong with him for not liking it - would simply be adding insult to injury.


Now you're changing the definition of marriage. Marriage is between one woman and one man. 
Same sex marriage is another topic altogether.


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## ChristianGrey

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You'd still be wrong.


That's because UMP doesn't do porn (99% of the time)... but when he does (1% of the time) he goes straight for the heavier stuff.

Most guys would be happy with giving a _Pearl Necklace_, but he aims higher.

Most women only get upset if it gets in their hair...

I mean that's what I heard from my friends...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

UMP said:


> Now you're changing the definition of marriage. Marriage is between one woman and one man.
> Same sex marriage is another topic altogether.


Marriage is defined however the individuals wants to define it. There is not 1 definition for everyone.


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## Cletus

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> This is where compatibility is important. Nothing is universally degrading IMO. But if someone feels degraded doing certain sex acts, it's degrading to them. Might be a typical Monday night to someone else. All that matters is how the people doing the sex act feel about it.


So a wife who won't let her husband touch her sexually in any way with his hands is being degraded when he tries on and off over the duration of their marriage? Where is the line between a necessary push against an unreasonable boundary and being degrading to your spouse? One man's hand on a breast is another man's Cleveland Steamer, but not a single person on this forum would agree that both are equally degrading.


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## UMP

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> This is where compatibility is important. Nothing is universally degrading IMO. But if someone feels degraded doing certain sex acts, it's degrading to them. Might be a typical Monday night to someone else. All that matters is how the people doing the sex act feel about it.


Yes, of course.
However, in time, and in my particular case, 23 years, if you want your sex life to steam, give in a little and try. You might surprise yourself. I know we did.
I cannot tell you how wonderful it is to hear my wife say this to me......

"How can sex be this good after 23 years?"


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## UMP

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Marriage is defined however the individuals wants to define it. There is not 1 definition for everyone.


But of course. So why is everyone getting divorced?
I'm just saying what worked for me. I want every one to have a great sex life. That's why I am here. I'm just trying to impart some knowledge that I have gained.
Take the word "degrading" out of the marriage bed.


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## Shoto1984

Its not the act(s) generally, and its not even if all involved agree to the act(s). I find the degradation creeping in as the objectification creeps in. When what you're doing begins to lack a loving (or at least affectionate) connection, I think we've stepped into a place where one or the other or both(all) are being used. For me this is where we find "degrading".


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## Rowan

UMP said:


> Now you're changing the definition of marriage. Marriage is between one woman and one man.
> *Same sex marriage is another topic altogether*.


Where did I say anything about same-sex marriage? :scratchhead:


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Cletus said:


> So a wife who won't let her husband touch her sexually in any way with his hands is being degraded when he tries on and off over the duration of their marriage? Where is the line between a necessary push against an unreasonable boundary and being degrading to your spouse? One man's hand on a breast is another man's Cleveland Steamer, but not a single person on this forum would agree that both are equally degrading.


No, but maybe the wife would and it's her body. Doesn't sound like something most would be compatible with and if expressing his wants still results in a NO, he should take that no and figure out what he wants to do instead of pushing her to let him do something she is not comfortable doing. 

You can't pick and choose which NOs are ok to disregard and which aren't, even if you don't agree with the no.


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## lifeistooshort

Can I assume your wife feels like you do? If so then why do you care that others don't agree? What if swingers told you they don't understand why you don't want your wife f!cking someone else because in the end she comes home to you? What works for others might not work for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UMP

lifeistooshort said:


> Can I assume your wife feels like you do? If so then why do you care that others don't agree? What if swingers told you they don't understand why you don't want your wife f!cking someone else because in the end she comes home to you? What works for others might not work for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because I think we could all benefit by taking the word "degrading" out of the marriage bed. I believe marriage is between one woman and one man, not swinging here.


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## lifeistooshort

Cletus said:


> So a wife who won't let her husband touch her sexually in any way with his hands is being degraded when he tries on and off over the duration of their marriage? Where is the line between a necessary push against an unreasonable boundary and being degrading to your spouse? One man's hand on a breast is another man's Cleveland Steamer, but not a single person on this forum would agree that both are equally degrading.



Unanswerable question. You and your spouse must come to an agreement; most of us agree that a marriage includes sex but you can't rape your wife if she cuts you off, so in the end it doesn't matter what's reasonable, only what you can live with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus

lifeistooshort said:


> Unanswerable question. You and your spouse must come to an agreement; most of us agree that a marriage includes sex bUT you can't rape your wife if she cuts you off, so in the end it doesn't matter what's reasonable, only what you can live with.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But we're specifically asking the question of whether or not it falls under the definition of degrading. People have an operational definition in their head, so you have to poke around the edges a little to discover if that definition is workable. 

Most here agree that trying to force a spouse to do something they don't want to do is <something>, but the label degrading is reserved for something more than that. Not every crossing of every boundary falls under the label degrading. It is a stronger word than that.


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## Dad&Hubby

UMP said:


> Hence my questions:
> 
> 1. How can we men push those lines in a way that does not make our spouse feel "degraded."


The only word in that question that bothers me is "push". You don't "push" the lines of degradation with someone you respect. This issue goes beyond "love". I would feel "degraded" by any act that is an act that is devoid of respect or worse, intentionally strips it away. Like I wouldn't let my wife use a strap on with me...(reversal of roles). I just couldn't take on that role. PS my wife loves that about me as well. We all have our boundaries and they are okay. There's differences between healthy boundaries...and unhealthy hangups. As long as it's not an unhealthy hangup...just respect them. 

To answer your question in a short version....communication..talk about the acts and decide what you're both open to trying. Never "sneak" one in....EVER.



> 2. Why do women feel "degraded" during a particular sex act with their husbands who have vowed to be with them and ONLY them for the rest of their lives? Why would ANY sex act in the marriage bond make any woman feel degraded?
> 
> Please be more specific, if you can.


Because everyone has a different opinion about degradation/respect etc. What you would find disrespectful, I may not and vise versa. There are things, on a fantasy level, that I find arousing...but I'd NEVER do them with my wife. I wouldn't even ask her, not because of her own openness or lack there of but my own. My wife and I call those things "hot thoughts" versus fantasies. Fantasies are something you might want to try...hot thoughts are thoughts that are hot at some base level but you'd NEVER want to do in real life.


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## Dad&Hubby

UMP said:


> I don't think any married couple should feel degraded during a sex act. If my wife wanted to do some strange thing to me, told me that it turns her on, I really don't care what it was. If it gets her horny and wet, I'm all in, period.
> I guess that's my point. I think we should forget the word "degrading" in our married sex life and just try and enjoy the fun. It might help solve many problems.


She wants you to go into work wearing but-less chaps with a dildo in your mouth and behind. She gets off on the power trip of making you a slave.

She gets off on public humiliation...putting you in a collar and making you go to public events/situations on your hands and knees.

She into cuckholdry. She wants you to sit there while another man with much bigger equipment rams her silly in ways she won't let you do and then have him cream all over your face or make you swallow.

Those are all REAL sexual appetites....You wouldn't feel degraded?


----------



## lifeistooshort

Cletus said:


> But we're specifically asking the question of whether or not it falls under the definition of degrading. People have an operational definition in their head, so you have to poke around the edges a little to discover if that definition is workable.
> 
> Most here agree that trying to force a spouse to do something they don't want to do is <something>, but the label degrading is reserved for something more than that. Not every crossing of every boundary falls under the label degrading. It is a stronger word than that.


True, but the defenition of degrading is subjective and is often connected to a person's individual issues. Often it is also tied to what they don't like, because one could consider it degrading to be pushed into something they don't want because not having your wishes respected. In addition, what is considered degrading within societal norms is ever changing. Oral and anal were once considered so vile and degrading that states passed laws banning them, yet now they are not only tolerated but many feel entitled to them. So how is it decided what is degrading?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## UMP

Dad&Hubby said:


> There are things, on a fantasy level, that I find arousing...but I'd NEVER do them with my wife. I wouldn't even ask her, not because of her own openness or lack there of but my own. My wife and I call those things "hot thoughts" versus fantasies. Fantasies are something you might want to try...hot thoughts are thoughts that are hot at some base level but you'd NEVER want to do in real life.


Like what?
Providing it's between JUST you and your wife. Give me an example. I'm not trying to be a perv. I really want to understand. Honestly.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Cletus said:


> I agree completely, but this of course reinforces the OP's question.
> 
> Is every sexual act automatically degrading because one of you thinks it is? I won't go into the list of things my wife won't allow, but most people here find that list tame and completely mainstream. Does the term "degrading" really apply? And if not, where do you cross the line from being a repressed sexual partner to being the victim of degradation?
> 
> It's like the definition of sexual harassment in the workplace that has now become the norm - the intent of the "harasser" is irrelevant. Ignorance is no defense, harassment is defined completely in the eyes of the harassed. Which seems to miss a big part of the definition of harassment, if you ask me. And perhaps degradation, too.


I really appreciate where Cletus is going in this conversation as well because those are all valid and important aspects of this conversation.

I do think the word degradation is a VERY strong word. For example, a wife who enjoys seeing her husband ejaculate because he shoots far and sometimes shoots it all over him, I don't think can really take the stance that a facial on her is degrading.


----------



## JustTired

ChristianGrey said:


> That's because UMP doesn't do porn (99% of the time)... but when he does (1% of the time) he goes straight for the heavier stuff.
> 
> *Most guys would be happy with giving a Pearl Necklace, but he aims higher.*
> 
> Most women only get upset if it gets in their hair...
> 
> I mean that's what I heard from my friends...


:rofl: You are killing me!


----------



## Dad&Hubby

UMP said:


> Like what?
> Providing it's between JUST you and your wife. Give me an example. I'm not trying to be a perv. I really want to understand. Honestly.


For instance double penetration. My wife and I both find it hot...BUT we'd NEVER in a million years allow a third into our activities. So we don't even consider it a fantasy, just something that is arousing but we wouldn't actually want to do.


----------



## JustTired

UMP said:


> But of course. So why is everyone getting divorced?
> I'm just saying what worked for me. I want every one to have a great sex life. That's why I am here. I'm just trying to impart some knowledge that I have gained.
> Take the word "degrading" out of the marriage bed.


So what you are saying is to more or less keep an open mind.

Rock it before you knock it!


----------



## UMP

Dad&Hubby said:


> She wants you to go into work wearing but-less chaps with a dildo in your mouth and behind. She gets off on the power trip of making you a slave.
> 
> She gets off on public humiliation...putting you in a collar and making you go to public events/situations on your hands and knees.
> 
> She into cuckholdry. She wants you to sit there while another man with much bigger equipment rams her silly in ways she won't let you do and then have him cream all over your face or make you swallow.
> 
> Those are all REAL sexual appetites....You wouldn't feel degraded?


:lol:
Well, you are kind of pushing the definition of marriage a bit.
Got to axe the cuckhold. I'm trying to stay in a one woman one man marriage.
Public humiliation, I believe, would also fall into that category. I'm talking about 2 people alone, door locked, one married man, one married woman. Let's at least use those parameters for these purposes or else I don't think we'll get anywhere.
I know you're trying to make a point and I appreciate that.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening all

One is dominating / degrading needs to be separated into "real" and "play". If my wife wanted to give me a spanking because I was naughty, or "force" me to give her oral or some such, I'd enjoy that as a game. OTOH if she wanted to in some way punish me in real life for a real transgression, I'd file for divorce the next day.


Some people associate specific sex acts with "real" as opposed "play" degradation. Which acts those are depends entirely on the person and those ideas may change over time. You can even have the case where the person in the dominant position finds the act degrading and won't do it even though their partner would enjoy it. 


That said, I think that in a happy relationship people should make a really effort to do what their partners enjoy in bed.


----------



## UMP

richardsharpe said:


> that said, i think that in a happy relationship people should make a really effort to do what their partners enjoy in bed.


amen !!


----------



## UMP

Dad&Hubby said:


> For instance double penetration. My wife and I both find it hot...BUT we'd NEVER in a million years allow a third into our activities. So we don't even consider it a fantasy, just something that is arousing but we wouldn't actually want to do.


Give me an example that does not include a third person.


----------



## Cletus

Lila said:


> Far be it for me to define what someone else finds 'degrading' or not. I have hard limits on sexual acts in my own marriage that I WILL NOT bend on. Several are things that most people here would consider mainstream but it still won't change how I feel about them.
> 
> Would some consider me sexually repressed? Maybe. Do I care? No, because sex in marriage is not about 'keeping up with the Joneses'. It's about two people sharing intimacy.


Whether you like it or not, social norms do form part of the basis of the definition of non-degrading sex. 

Everyone here agrees that missionary PIV is a completely reasonable expectation as a bare minimum in a marriage with two otherwise healthy adults. It is not a degrading act to try this with your spouse and expect he or she to accommodate you. You could say this was a hard limit for you in your marriage, and you'd be roundly and universally rebuffed right here. 

A person denying a spouse PIV would be called hopelessly repressed, dysfunctional, or utterly asexual. So while that's an extreme example, somewhere along the continuum of missionary PIV to DOM/SUB where degradation is an explicit part of the arousal, we draw a line that says degradation does not apply. 

Of course, we don't require that such a spouse submit to an act that they cannot stand - rather, we implore them to fix the issue or release their spouse from the contract. But I don't call the spouse who tries to push past this kind of a hangup by actually trying to find a way to do the thing which is unwelcome, short of actually raping his wife, as someone who is degrading another. 

YMMV.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

UMP said:


> :lol:
> Well, you are kind of pushing the definition of marriage a bit.
> Got to axe the cuckhold. I'm trying to stay in a one woman one man marriage.
> Public humiliation, I believe, would also fall into that category. I'm talking about 2 people alone, door locked, one married man, one married woman. Let's at least use those parameters for these purposes or else I don't think we'll get anywhere.
> I know you're trying to make a point and I appreciate that.


These are your limits. A lot of people don't have those limits but yours are just as valid as another persons list.

Why can this conversation only be about limits that are within your own comfort zone?


----------



## UMP

ChristianGrey said:


> That's because UMP doesn't do porn (99% of the time)... but when he does (1% of the time) he goes straight for the heavier stuff.
> 
> Most guys would be happy with giving a _Pearl Necklace_, but he aims higher.
> 
> Most women only get upset if it gets in their hair...
> 
> I mean that's what I heard from my friends...


OK, 5%.
At least I'm trying  Really, I am.
I noticed that the longer I stay away from porn, the more fun I have with my wife, in bed.
Just a simple cause and effect.


----------



## Coffee Amore

UMP said:


> :lol:
> Well, you are kind of pushing the definition of marriage a bit.
> Got to axe the cuckhold. I'm trying to stay in a one woman one man marriage.
> *Public humiliation, I believe, would also fall into that category*. I'm talking about 2 people alone, door locked, one married man, one married woman. Let's at least use those parameters for these purposes or else I don't think we'll get anywhere.
> I know you're trying to make a point and I appreciate that.


Public humiliation isn't an open marriage. It is a form of BDSM. It still occurs in the context of monogamy.


----------



## UMP

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> These are your limits. A lot of people don't have those limits but yours are just as valid as another persons list.
> 
> Why can this conversation only be about limits that are within your own comfort zone?


Because adding a third person negates the definition of marriage between one woman and one man. I am trying to stay within those confines or else there will be no progress on this thread.
Let's just say that I changed the OP to read, "between one man and one woman."


----------



## UMP

Coffee Amore said:


> Public humiliation isn't an open marriage. It is a form of BDSM. It still occurs in the context of monogamy.


OK. You win.
I give up.


----------



## Cobalt

UMP said:


> Another poster mentioned that her husband turns "hot sex into degrading sex." I think this is an important topic. In my opinion ANY sex act, providing the partner allows it, is never degrading. I think this can be a hang up for many women, because I assume women and not men feel somehow "degraded" during a particular sex act.
> 
> *I myself am a facial kind of guy.;*) I would venture to say that many women think this is degrading. Why? I know the "facial" is a bit weird and kinky but I think many men are afraid to do this to there wives because of past rejections or afraid they are crossing some sort of line.
> I don't think there should be ANY boundaries for sex in marriage. Crossing lines is what great sex is made of. Variety is the spice of life and so on and so forth.
> 
> 1. How can we men push those lines in a way that does not make our spouse feel "degraded."
> 
> 2. Why do women feel "degraded" during a particular sex act with their husbands who have vowed to be with them and ONLY them for the rest of their lives? Why would ANY sex act in the marriage bond make any woman feel degraded?


jfc dude.....lol


----------



## Shoto1984

Cletus said:


> Everyone here agrees that missionary PIV is a completely reasonable expectation as a bare minimum in a marriage with two otherwise healthy adults. It is not a degrading act to try this with your spouse and expect he or she to accommodate you.
> 
> YMMV.


I think it goes beyond this. I think you can be having vanilla missionary PIV in a marriage and it be degrading if it is done without love or at least affection for each other. I think you can engage in this kind of sex and it feel empty and without value without an emotional connection. I think people can agree to acts that they both want and those acts still be degrading. People engage in behaviors that are bad for them (physically and/or emotionally) of their own accord and even with knowledge that those things are detrimental. This is where self awareness, self control, conscious evolution and maybe therapy come in.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

UMP said:


> Because adding a third person negates the definition of marriage between one woman and one man. I am trying to stay within those confines or else there will be no progress on this thread.
> Let's just say that I changed the OP to read, "between one man and one woman."


Your definition, your limits. There's no progress because you think everyone should agree with what you and your wife do and don't see that every person and couple is different.


----------



## UMP

Cletus said:


> Whether you like it or not, social norms do form part of the basis of the definition of non-degrading sex.
> 
> Everyone here agrees that missionary PIV is a completely reasonable expectation as a bare minimum in a marriage with two otherwise healthy adults. It is not a degrading act to try this with your spouse and expect he or she to accommodate you. You could say this was a hard limit for you in your marriage, and you'd be roundly and universally rebuffed right here.
> 
> A person denying a spouse PIV would be called hopelessly repressed, dysfunctional, or utterly asexual. So while that's an extreme example, somewhere along the continuum of missionary PIV to DOM/SUB where degradation is an explicit part of the arousal, we draw a line that says degradation does not apply.
> 
> Of course, we don't require that such a spouse submit to an act that they cannot stand - rather, we implore them to fix the issue or release their spouse from the contract. But I don't call the spouse who tries to push past this kind of a hangup by actually trying to find a way to do the thing which is unwelcome, short of actually raping his wife, as someone who is degrading another.
> 
> YMMV.


Bravo!
Well said!


----------



## Cletus

Shoto1984 said:


> I think it goes beyond this. I think you can be having vanilla missionary PIV in a marriage and it be degrading if it is done without love or at least affection for each other. I think you can engage in this kind of sex and it feel empty and without value without an emotional connection. I think people can agree to acts that they both want and those acts still be degrading. People engage in behaviors that are bad for them (physically and/or emotionally) of their own accord and even with knowledge that those things are detrimental. This is where self awareness, self control, conscious evolution and maybe therapy come in.


I agree. My humble opinion on degrading requires a certain detachment from and objectification of your spouse. The most basic mutually agreed upon vanilla sex act can be done in a degrading fashion. Conversely, pushing on your partners boundaries is not necessarily degrading, if done in the right manner with regard to his or her feelings. 

Believe me, I have had to spend a lot of time pondering this particular problem.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening UMP
To me, "watersports" are degrading, I wouldn't want to do it or have it done to me. Other people are free to do as they wish. 

YKIOKBINMK ('your kink is OK, but its not my kink")

If it were something my wife really wanted, I might be willing to try, but only if she were willing to try to act on all my fantasies .



UMP said:


> Give me an example that does not include a third person.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

Cletus said:


> So a wife who won't let her husband touch her sexually in any way with his hands is being degraded when he tries on and off over the duration of their marriage? Where is the line between a necessary push against an unreasonable boundary and being degrading to your spouse? One man's hand on a breast is another man's Cleveland Steamer, but not a single person on this forum would agree that both are equally degrading.


I think the point is it doesn't matter if it's not considered degrading by the vast majority of people. It's degrading to her. You've disrespected her boundaries. You and I may think her boundaries are ridiculous but it doesn't mean she's not entitled to them.


----------



## BucksBunny

Well this is all a how you see it type thing.

See I looked it up, sad I know and dumb.

Degrade

[dih-greyd or for 3, dee-greyd] 
verb (used with object), degraded, degrading. 
1. 
to lower in dignity or estimation; bring into contempt: 
He felt they were degrading him by making him report to the supervisor.
2. 
to lower in character or quality; debase. 
3. 
to reduce (someone) to a lower rank, degree, etc.; deprive of office, rank, status, or title, especially as a punishment: 
degraded from director to assistant director.
4. 
to reduce in amount, strength, intensity, etc. 
5. 
Physical Geography. to wear down by erosion, as hills. 
Compare aggrade. 
6. 
Chemistry. to break down (a compound, especially an organic hydrocarbon). 
verb (used without object), degraded, degrading. 
7. 
to become degraded; weaken or worsen; deteriorate. 
8. 
Chemistry. (especially of an organic hydrocarbon compound) to break down or decompose. 
Origin 
1275-1325; Middle English degraden < Late Latin dēgradāre, equivalent to Latin dē- de- + grad (us) grade + -āre infinitive suffix.

HEY it’s on the net so must be true, right?

So my reading is a horse and cart with 27 horses can be driven through the word it’s not the same for everyone it’s a very wide word and can even change day to day with a couple. I might accept some thing in a role play game that on a wet, Wednesday night in January when I am cuddling up I would say you’re out your mind I am sleeping on sofa!! 

So to me it’s all about context some things at some times are ok others not. I have a thing about H finishing on me, no problem if I am happy but I do it he don’t just jerk on me we share it I find getting Jerked on degrading cause it was not a sharing experience keeps me happy and he is not complain in any way. My little thing where I draw my own line on word. And yes it can change if it was a part of a game but a blanket statement of any thing, any time is ok is such a broad brush OP with you to right mood, right time, right feeling push as far as you both want and let go. But it’s not an every day thing or one size fits all.

My thoughts only.


----------



## Pooh Bear

KathyBatesel said:


> Eh... I think some acts are inherently degrading.
> 
> What turns you on about facials, for instance? It's an element of power, I believe, and it's not simply about being more powerful than your partner but being able to "show" it in a powerful way.
> 
> That same act of ejaculating on your partner's body elsewhere, say on the chest, is not as powerful and might even be a reversal of the power dynamics.
> 
> So some acts automatically degrade the status of the other person. The other person might willingly accept the lower status as an act of love or a validation of their own self-perception, but it doesn't change the power balance of these acts.


Woohoo! You go girl!


----------



## UMP

Lila said:


> I think people who are sexually incompatible should never even consider marrying. And if not known until afterwards, then you're right, an amicable divorce should be an option.


If that were the case, I would have never married my wife of 23 years. I married my wife simply because I loved her. The love I had/have for her is simply my desire to take care of her till the day I die. For some reason, I did not want to be apart from her and wanted to be by her side for the rest of my life. Sex from day one was, for lack of a better word, boring.
However, in time, 23 years to be exact, we are now having the best sex of our lives.
Why? Because we both started giving what the other wanted in bed. Sure, there have been bumps in the road. However, all in all, sex is NOW great when it was "incompatible" at the start.


----------



## Jellybeans

Rowan said:


> I think the key here is to find a partner who is sexually compatible with you. Build a relationship where_ both _of you are happy with your sexual expression. Either respect your partner's hard boundaries, or find a partner who shares your boundaries, or lack thereof.


The voice of reason.



UMP said:


> Now you're changing the definition of marriage. Marriage is between one woman and one man.
> Same sex marriage is another topic altogether.


You lost me. 



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> These are your limits. A lot of people don't have those limits but yours are just as valid as another persons list.


No, no. Ump seems to think his way is the only way it "should" be. For everyone.


----------



## Pooh Bear

UMP said:


> Hence my questions:
> 
> 1. How can we men push those lines in a way that does not make our spouse feel "degraded."
> 
> 2. Why do women feel "degraded" during a particular sex act with their husbands who have vowed to be with them and ONLY them for the rest of their lives? Why would ANY sex act in the marriage bond make any woman feel degraded?
> 
> Please be more specific, if you can.


You don't push the line. You talk with your partner outside of the bedroom what would be acceptable or not acceptable in the bedroom. You value what she thinks and says and how she feels about certain interactions. Have you ever felt degraded? By anything? It doesn't feel good. Your partner is telling you that act would make her feel degraded. It doesn't matter how anyone else feels or what other people are comfortable with. All that matters is that your partner would feel degraded during a sex act. If you want to know why ask her. But then drop it. If she says no, she says no. That's it. 

Monogomy does not mean that someone has to consent to anything. It also does not mean that someone has to consent to have sex at all. It means that two people made a commitment to each other and preferably value each other enough to respect each other's boundries.


----------



## UMP

I seem to have hit a nerve here. I tend to do that a lot. I guess that's probably one of the reasons I got kicked out of MMSL.
Anyway, you are all free to do whatever you want to do.
I am no ones judge.
As for myself, taking the term "degrading" out of our sex life has worked wonders for our marriage.
Proceed as you wish.


----------



## Jellybeans

Rowan said:


> I think the key here is to find a partner who is sexually compatible with you. Build a relationship where_ both _of you are happy with your sexual expression. Either respect your partner's hard boundaries, or find a partner who shares your boundaries, or lack thereof.


The voice of reason.



UMP said:


> Now you're changing the definition of marriage. Marriage is between one woman and one man.
> Same sex marriage is another topic altogether.


You lost me. 



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> These are your limits. A lot of people don't have those limits but yours are just as valid as another persons list.


No, no. Ump seems to think his way is the only way it "should" be. For everyone.


----------



## Blondilocks

"*I want every one to have a great sex life. *"

Why? What's it to you? What are you getting out of it besides posting your kinks?

This isn't even the Sex in Marriage forum - it's General Discussion.


----------



## Pooh Bear

UMP said:


> OK. What is so wrong about that? Remember, we are talking about sex with someone you have vowed to be with for the rest of your life, not a hooker. For me, I like the facial because it simply turns me on. It makes me randy just thinking about it. How could I be degrading my wife? This is the person I have vowed to take care of for the rest of my life and DO.


Interesting that you used the term, "take care of." So you are taking care of her, therefore she owes you? Kind of like a hooker? 

Spouses can degrade each other in and outside the bedroom. Have you read the posts talking about the amount of abuse that goes on in relationships?


----------



## Cletus

Lila said:


> C'mon Cletus. You know that this argument is not about PIV.


The example was illustrative of the general principle that attempting to perform unwanted sexual acts on a spouse is a form of degradation - not just a hypothetical, but a position presented by a previous poster. 



> This is about the upteen other activities that make up what modern humans define as 'sex', specifically in marriage.


Thank you for agreeing with my point. What other sexual acts shall we include in the set of what "modern humans define as sex" to be implicitly outside of the definition of degrading?


----------



## UMP

Lila said:


> Look, you and your wife are truly an inspiring story, but your success with this type of turnaround is in the minority. My best guess is that the odds of taking someone who was ho hum about sex at the beginning of the relationship and turning them into a sex vixen in their later years is very low. I congratulate you for your obstinacy. Not many people have the fortitude to fight that fight for 20+ years. Personally, I would have called it quits long before, but that's just me.
> 
> Doing things your way because it worked for you doesn't necessarily mean it's the 'right' way for everyone. I say share you success story with TAM however keep in mind that we all have to make our own path to success.


I look at this a bit differently. I say, if someone like me, in my situation can do it, ANYONE CAN.
You are correct though. Just because it worked for me does not necessarily mean it's going to work for everyone.
However, the only insight I have is of my own experiences. I cannot impart knowledge on something I do not know anything about. Let's say I'm an "expert"(for lack of a better word) in MY marriage. Perhaps something I have learned may be of use to someone else even if it does not fit 100%, it may still be of use. That's why I post.


----------



## ConanHub

Blondilocks said:


> "*I want every one to have a great sex life. *"
> 
> Why? What's it to you? What are you getting out of it besides posting your kinks?
> 
> This isn't even the Sex in Marriage forum - it's General Discussion.


I thought this was the sex with dwarves section.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WandaJ

Whatever makes your partner feeling degraded it's degrading. simple like this. Not everybody is into pushing the boundaries and you need to respect that or find another partner.


----------



## ConanHub

I agree with you UMP. I have seen very good turnarounds in sexually incompatible marriages and continue to get better in my own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blondilocks

ConanHub said:


> I thought this was the sex with dwarves section.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oops, my bad. The avatar of SnowWhite should have alerted me.


----------



## Pooh Bear

UMP said:


> When did I say my wife does not like facials? She does.
> I'm just wondering why some people think sex is degrading.
> I don't understand. I have been married 23 years and am having the BEST FRIGGEN sex of my life.
> However, my devious mind wants more. I've got so much good stuff in my head I don't think I could exhaust the list in my lifetime.
> I believe part of the reason our sex life is so good is that my wife seems to have joyously submitted to my deviant mind.
> It's a wonderful thing!


Ok. I am confused. What is your question? Why everyone is not the same? Why some people feel degraded by sex acts and others don't? It is really unique to each individual person. And in any relationship consent is important - whether it is in a sexual relationship or not.


----------



## Pooh Bear

UMP said:


> I do not think men or woman should feel degraded in a marriage sex act, providing they allow said act. My main point is, if your spouse wants to do something that turns them on, why not do it? I find pleasure in pleasing my wife. If it turns her on, it turns me on. How can pleasing my wife in our marriage bed regardless of how weird it is degrade me? I'm "allowing" it for her pleasure.


It's kind of pointless. What you think about other people's marriages and relationships is irrelevant. I had to ask my husband what a facial is but it sounds disgusting. I wouldn't feel comfortable with that. But that is between me and my husband. You, thankfully, are not part of our marriage.


----------



## UMP

ConanHub said:


> I agree with you UMP. I have seen very good turnarounds in sexually incompatible marriages and continue to get better in my own.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good for you!!:smthumbup:


----------



## Dad&Hubby

UMP said:


> :lol:
> Well, you are kind of pushing the definition of marriage a bit.
> Got to axe the cuckhold. I'm trying to stay in a one woman one man marriage.
> Public humiliation, I believe, would also fall into that category. I'm talking about 2 people alone, door locked, one married man, one married woman. Let's at least use those parameters for these purposes or else I don't think we'll get anywhere.
> I know you're trying to make a point and I appreciate that.


But this is where I call foul on your whole assessment.

You are ONLY looking at what YOU find degrading/acceptable/sexually allowable.

There are people in this world who incorporate some of what I listed in their normal sexual activities. 

All that happened is I found one of YOUR boundaries. IE....everyone has different boundaries and those boundaries...as long as they are healthy.....(not sexual hang ups from psychological issues) should be respected....that includes for some women and men...facials.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

UMP said:


> Give me an example that does not include a third person.


Nope...that's getting a little too personal.



I have some but I'm not putting them out on the internet for the world to see. Only myself and my wife know my really darkest things....


----------



## Pooh Bear

Cletus said:


> So a wife who won't let her husband touch her sexually in any way with his hands is being degraded when he tries on and off over the duration of their marriage? Where is the line between a necessary push against an unreasonable boundary and being degrading to your spouse? One man's hand on a breast is another man's Cleveland Steamer, but not a single person on this forum would agree that both are equally degrading.


There is no such thing as a "necessary push." If you don't like someone’s boundaries then either you accept it or you find someone who doesn't have that boundary. If you are not sexually compatible with your partner there are plenty of people you will be sexually compatible with. That's the thing with sexual harassment. The harasser is not respecting another person's dignity.


----------



## Pooh Bear

Cletus said:


> But we're specifically asking the question of whether or not it falls under the definition of degrading. People have an operational definition in their head, so you have to poke around the edges a little to discover if that definition is workable.
> 
> Most here agree that trying to force a spouse to do something they don't want to do is <something>, but the label degrading is reserved for something more than that. Not every crossing of every boundary falls under the label degrading. It is a stronger word than that.


Oh really? Ever been raped? Degrading may not be a strong enough word.


----------



## Pooh Bear

UMP said:


> :lol:
> Well, you are kind of pushing the definition of marriage a bit.
> Got to axe the cuckhold. I'm trying to stay in a one woman one man marriage.
> Public humiliation, I believe, would also fall into that category. I'm talking about 2 people alone, door locked, one married man, one married woman. Let's at least use those parameters for these purposes or else I don't think we'll get anywhere.
> I know you're trying to make a point and I appreciate that.


So anything that you would actually consider derogatory you're not willing to try because it is not within the confines of the bedroom. Or it redefines marriage. Right? Because I'm thinking that all of those things would feel derogatory to you. I could be wrong. But really what you're saying is that it's about wives being willing to try things because their husbands take care of them and they should never feel degraded. It seems that every time someone brings up something that may be objectionable to you, you have some reason that it can not be included in trying new things. Are you aware of that?


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## Pooh Bear

UMP said:


> Because adding a third person negates the definition of marriage between one woman and one man. I am trying to stay within those confines or else there will be no progress on this thread.
> Let's just say that I changed the OP to read, "between one man and one woman."


Not true. This is about sex not marriage. And I am not going to say one man, one woman because there are gay married couples. Do you include them in this blanket statement? But a couple can still be married and include a third person in a sex act. So why are you objecting to bringing a third party in for a night? That's your boundary? You find that objectionable? Why? Why not try it?


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## Middle of Everything

Lila said:


> That set of sexual acts is individual to each couple. As long as both people are in agreement, then neither should find it degrading.


Yes because its generally that simple.

People walk around when they are dating with sexual agreement checklists for all to see.

I dont get being so harsh to Cletus. From what I recall in my time on TAM he has always been a nice guy who invites discussion. Again from what I recall he has a wife who is WAY uptight in the bedroom. He isnt a guy that is pissed his wife wont let him give her a Dirty Sanchez every night.

Its ok. Some people are the opposite of freaks. Uptight prudes with all kinds of issues. Problem is we dont date with these out in the open for all to see. They generally come up years later. And aside from these issues Im sure most, Cletus included, love their spouse. Maybe children involved. Its not so simple to leave. Thus they come to places like TAM. They ask "how can I get my wife/husband to like/do X or Y" 

This doesnt make them bad people who are pushing their wife/husband to do sick and or degrading things.


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## UMP

Dad&Hubby said:


> But this is where I call foul on your whole assessment.
> 
> You are ONLY looking at what YOU find degrading/acceptable/sexually allowable.
> 
> There are people in this world who incorporate some of what I listed in their normal sexual activities.
> 
> All that happened is I found one of YOUR boundaries. IE....everyone has different boundaries and those boundaries...as long as they are healthy.....(not sexual hang ups from psychological issues) should be respected....that includes for some women and men...facials.



My goal was to start a discussion with some parameters, but I was unsuccessful. However, I can certainly see YOUR point.

Regardless, if my wife would indeed want to publically humiliate me, with a form of BDSM, I would still try and find a way to fulfill that desire, somehow. Now, maybe I would not go to the mall with a chain around my neck sucking a 12" dildo, as you explained(not an exact quote)
Maybe there's another way. Point being, I'm OPEN, ready and willing to listen to her desires and fulfill them anyway I can, even if they are WAY out of my comfort zone. That's really the message I'm trying to convey.


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## norajane

UMP said:


> :lol:
> Well, you are kind of pushing the definition of marriage a bit.
> Got to axe the cuckhold. I'm trying to stay in a one woman one man marriage.
> Public humiliation, I believe, would also fall into that category. *I'm talking about 2 people alone, door locked, one married man, one married woman. Let's at least use those parameters for these purposes or else I don't think we'll get anywhere.*
> I know you're trying to make a point and I appreciate that.


"UMP, come here, I need you to be my toilet slave! I'm going to poop and you should take off all your clothes, and crawl over here so you can lick my ass clean for me while I laugh at you. That would turn me on so much! We can lock the door so it's just the two of us, one man and one woman."


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## BucksBunny

UMP I like you real cute, great measured posts.

Do you work in politics? If not really think about it you could be good move you could be good at it.

People marry other people for who they are the shy, sweet girl you marry will never be a Nymph in thededroom it would be false. Same way the kind caring guy I married cause they were things I liked about him wont go all caveman on me, being boy to his girl is fine with me happens now and again.

So short answer don't ask her to be someone she is not I love my H for him all of him every move and thought HIS own person and 90% is out of bed and 10% in bed that makes our life together so what axe your grinding with her put it down. Don't mess up what you have.

I wish I could cook like chef at restaurant we went last date night to.

I wish my Butt was as tight as that annoying teenager on the bus.

I wish my Bobbies sat up like girl that served me coffee this morning.

Not going to happen so hey, ho better get on with it and make the best you have. 

My thought nothing more.


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## UMP

norajane said:


> "UMP, come here, I need you to be my toilet slave! I'm going to poop and you should take off all your clothes, and crawl over here so you can lick my ass clean for me while I laugh at you. That would turn me on so much! We can lock the door so it's just the two of us, one man and one woman."



"Well honey, that sounds interesting. Let's sit down and talk about it. Maybe we could come to an understanding that would excite both of us."


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## Miss Taken

What Rowan said earlier about empathy was spot on. I would add it's also a matter of respect. I'm not saying facials are disrespectful or degrading. They're not when both are willing, consenting to it and that's a matter of preference/taste. 

If a facial makes a woman feel degraded and turns her off, I think her husband should respect that. After all it is her face he wants to put his spunk on. I don't care what kind of sexual freak you are. Everyone has their own limits when it comes to sexual acts they are ready and willing to engage in. Just because one's limits are at one degree of the pendulum than another's doesn't make them wrong.

Take a MFM threesome involving your wife where only you get to watch. Add to that much of the time involves pointing, laughing and jeers at the size of your manhood and sexual prowess in comparison to those other men. I bet many men would feel degraded, cuckholded, emasculated, dehumanized by the experience (save those that enjoy this kind of thing). "NO", you're saying. "That's not the SAME as blowing my load all over her face! That's extreme!" Perhaps but not _to her_. (The proverbial her, that doesn't enjoy facials that is).

So many people enjoy eating dishes seasoned with or garnished with cilantro. Personally, I think cilantro tastes like a burning car tire in a landfill in the middle of a war-torn country. Am I wrong? Or are the people who like cilantro wrong? Should I pressure, persuade, coerce, goad everyone else into hating cilantro? Should they try to change my mind? Or is it reasonable to assume that we can have divergent opinions/tastes and both be right? We don't have to agree to respect and empathize with each other. 

Respect in addition to empathy is extremely important in all aspects of relationship but I think especially when it comes to sex. Sex is supposed to bond us together, be very intimate and enhance love, affection, and bonding. Feeling respected and cared for (empathy is part of caring and giving a sh!t) is a huge part of trust. 

I would not trust a man and thus feel less inclined to give of myself/go out of my sexual comfort zone if I did not feel respected and cared for at the onset/duration of sex. On the other hand, a man who makes me feel loved, respected, cherished, safe to be around outside of the bedroom can probably come on my face.

Of course, there are no guarantees and mileage may vary. Such love, respect, cherishing and safety will never get me to eat cilantro but they may open me up to trying a different salsa. In other words, you may never get "this" but you might end up getting a whole lot other varieties of "that" and with more enthusiasm and gusto than a reluctant or tentative yes to ____.


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## ConanHub

norajane said:


> "UMP, come here, I need you to be my toilet slave! I'm going to poop and you should take off all your clothes, and crawl over here so you can lick my ass clean for me while I laugh at you. That would turn me on so much! We can lock the door so it's just the two of us, one man and one woman."


Well at least she isn't trying to shove this thread in a direction that it wasn't aimed at.&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UMP

BucksBunny said:


> UMP I like you real cute, great measured posts.
> 
> Do you work in politics? If not really think about it you could be good move you could be good at it.
> 
> People marry other people for who they are the shy, sweet girl you marry will never be a Nymph in thededroom it would be false. Same way the kind caring guy I married cause they were things I liked about him wont go all caveman on me, being boy to his girl is fine with me happens now and again.


Well, that's EXACTLY who I married. 23 years later she's shoving dildos up my butt without me EVER hinting about it. It's not so much about who you marry because I don't think you can fully understand an individual even after a lifetime together. There is SO much unknown and hidden inside ones mind. Somehow, someway, I was able to get the kink out of my "sweet girl." How SWEET it is!!

That "caring guy" you married might be a raging maniac caveman in his head and might just be afraid to show you. There is great fear in admitting your deepest sexual fantasies with your spouse.


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## ConanHub

I think whatever is agreed upon between a husband and wife is not degrading. I actually wouldn't get off on giving her a facial. I would like her to swallow but we're still not agreed on that.

We both love kissing after oral. Some might find it degrading but we think it is hot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UMP

Miss Taken said:


> I would not trust a man and thus feel less inclined to give of myself/go out of my sexual comfort zone if I did not feel respected and cared for at the onset/duration of sex. On the other hand, a man who makes me feel loved, respected, cherished, safe to be around outside of the bedroom can probably come on my face.
> 
> Of course, there are no guarantees and mileage may vary. Such love, respect, cherishing and safety will never get me to eat cilantro but they may open me up to trying a different salsa. In other words, you may never get "this" but you might end up getting a whole lot other varieties of "that" and with more enthusiasm and gusto than a reluctant or tentative yes to ____.


WONDERFULL and well said !!!!


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## norajane

UMP said:


> "Well honey, that sounds interesting. Let's sit down and talk about it. Maybe we could come to an understanding that would excite both of us."


"I don't care if it excites you! I don't care if you don't want to do it! It excites me so you're going to do it anyway. Now."

Degrading is pushing, pressuring, pressing or coercing someone into doing something they don't want to do without any regard for their limits. What those limits are is different for every individual.


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## jaquen

There is no such thing as degrading acts if both parties are into it and find it mutually pleasurable.

Degradation isn't about a specific act, it's about a state of mind.

A man or woman who is ashamed of their body could find degradation in just standing buck naked in front of their spouse with the lights on.


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## Cletus

Lila said:


> In my defense, my posts are based solely on what I've read on this thread. I have a very limited knowledge of his relationship with his wife.


I haven't felt attacked FWIW.


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## ConanHub

jaquen said:


> There is no such thing as degrading acts if both parties are into it and find it mutually pleasurable.
> 
> Degradation isn't about a specific act, it's about a state of mind.
> 
> A man or woman who is ashamed of their body could find degradation in just standing buck naked in front of their spouse with the lights on.


True. Dealt with a lot of women with that exact issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UMP

norajane said:


> "I don't care if it excites you! I don't care if you don't want to do it! It excites me so you're going to do it anyway. Now."


"Honey, you're really on fire tonight! How's about I take 4 oxycodone and you do whatever you want to me. When I wake up, tell me how it was." "Can I have a glass of water mam?"


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## Blondilocks

UMP said:


> "Honey, you're really on fire tonight! How's about I take 4 oxycodone and you do whatever you want to me. When I wake up, tell me how it was." "Can I have a glass of water mam?"


Isn't it illegal to have sex with a corpse?


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## UMP

Blondilocks said:


> Isn't it illegal to have sex with a corpse?


I have a high tolerance for pain medication. Still here. Although you might want to have the phone handy if we need to call 911.


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## Cletus

ConanHub said:


> True. Dealt with a lot of women with that exact issue.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm ambivalent on that definition. Allowing anything and everything to qualify as potentially degrading renders the definition a little useless - sort of the way "abuse" has become so abused, or the notion that when everyone is "special", no one is.

Nonetheless, there is certainly an element of "I feel degraded, therefore I am" that can't be ignored. I don't think a definition of degraded that doesn't have some linkage to the intent of he doing the degrading can be complete.


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## UMP

Cletus said:


> I'm ambivalent on that definition. Allowing anything and everything to qualify as potentially degrading renders the definition a little useless - sort of the way "abuse" has become so abused, or the notion that when everyone is "special", no one is.
> 
> Nonetheless, there is certainly an element of "I feel degraded, therefore I am" that can't be ignored. I don't think a definition of degraded that doesn't have some linkage to the intent of he doing the degrading can be complete.


Cletus, 
I get your name and picture now. Great sarcasm !!
You are one smart dude:smthumbup:


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## Fozzy

norajane said:


> "UMP, come here, I need you to be my toilet slave! I'm going to poop and you should take off all your clothes, and crawl over here so you can lick my ass clean for me while I laugh at you. That would turn me on so much! We can lock the door so it's just the two of us, one man and one woman."


Good lord, what is this, Showtime?

:rofl:


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## ConanHub

Cletus said:


> I'm ambivalent on that definition. Allowing anything and everything to qualify as potentially degrading renders the definition a little useless - sort of the way "abuse" has become so abused, or the notion that when everyone is "special", no one is.
> 
> Nonetheless, there is certainly an element of "I feel degraded, therefore I am" that can't be ignored. I don't think a definition of degraded that doesn't have some linkage to the intent of he doing the degrading can be complete.


I definitely agree. I don't think being naked in front of your spouse in private is degrading. Some people just feel that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cobalt

Blondilocks said:


> Isn't it illegal to have sex with a corpse?


define corpse.


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## UMP

Cobalt said:


> define corpse.


How degrading !


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## norajane

jaquen said:


> There is no such thing as degrading acts if both parties are into it and find it mutually pleasurable.
> 
> Degradation isn't about a specific act, it's about a state of mind.
> 
> *A man or woman who is ashamed of their body could find degradation in just standing buck naked in front of their spouse with the lights on.*


Ashamed of their body, or if their partner's attitude toward it makes them feel degraded.

"Bring us some coffee" or "take notes" can be degrading if done in an office where you're expected to be the coffee bringer or note taker just because you're the only woman in the room despite being the same level as the men. It's the attitude that makes it degrading, not the bringing of coffee or taking notes itself.


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## UMP

norajane said:


> "Bring us some coffee" or "take notes" can be degrading if done in an office where you're expected to be the coffee bringer or note taker just because you're the only woman in the room despite being the same level as the men. It's the attitude that makes it degrading, not the bringing of coffee or taking notes itself.


Of course it is. 
However, a spouse asking for something weird like you wanting me to be your "toilet slave" is not in and of itself degrading. You're just turned on to see me as your toilet slave. That's not a crime. I'll try to accommodate anyway I can because I love you.


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## BucksBunny

Thanks for getting back I am a bit slow so had to read all 8 pages to understand, and I am really dumb so humour me what problem do you have? 

23 years and lots of fun is all I read sounds good to me. Yip 8 down 15 to go please tell me when I hit 23 how I will go off my H and send him angry think we will just do same as.

So you get on obviously or it would not have lasted.

What is the issue?

You suddenly find a barrier or block after 23 years, come on I am dumb but not stupid any window you wanted to push you would have tried 22.5 years ago. 

Not picking a fight in any way but hey she orders shrimp, you order chicken in a restaurant so what you’re not annoyed with that same thing again what is the problem?

Before this thread goes off completely real hand, out if you have sex dreams you really want to do talk with your wife out side bedroom and explain them and it can be a big treat night even one time only because you really want. A real special weekend don’t need to be away just lots of hugs and kisses, a cosy lunch some where nice and walk in the park together and build up the trust. Even role play Lola is a right little tramp sexpot of senior school.

Nothing to do with me was her not me she says awful things and is a real s*** nothing to do with me she just shows up. Sorry for long post and I was not biting.

IF SHE is not into some thing she never will be accept it and move on.

IF SHE is not sure try role play to give it a clear game line, that Lola is a dirty low down well. But I am a good girl so some times a bit of separation can help also clear boundary when I play this game go when I come out of game treat me like every day.


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## Cobalt

I don't need a toilet slave or even giving facials. I would be happy doing my wife from behind but she thinks THAT's degrading. 

She has a nice ass too


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## Cobalt

Lila said:


> Ump,
> 
> You asked the questions but you haven't given your answers. Did you wife ever feel like there were sexual acts that were degrading? If so, how would you answer #1 and #2?
> 
> 
> 1. How can we men push those lines in a way that does not make our spouse feel "degraded."
> 
> *2. Why do women feel "degraded" during a particular sex act with their husbands who have vowed to be with them and ONLY them for the rest of their lives? Why would ANY sex act in the marriage bond make any woman feel degraded?*




:smthumbup:


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## WandaJ

ConanHub said:


> I agree with you UMP. I have seen very good turnarounds in sexually incompatible marriages and continue to get better in my own.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


this is not about incompatible marriages. He claims that you are supposed to like whatever he likes. There are people who like to urinate on others in sexual act. Are you willing to let your wife to pee on your face if she fancies it? Yes, this is real kink, people get off on it, on both sides of the action.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

UMP said:


> Of course it is.
> However, a spouse asking for something weird like you wanting me to be your "toilet slave" is not in and of itself degrading. You're just turned on to see me as your toilet slave. That's not a crime. I'll try to accommodate anyway I can because I love you.


Nothing is in and of itself degrading. If both (or more ) people want to try something, they should and not give a crap what anyone else thinks about it. 
Degrading is a personal thing.
You have limits like everyone else. It's important to respect them. 

No one is saying don't have fun with sex or do things that others might find degrading, just don't push, force or otherwise expect your spouse to do something they have said NO to just because you're married.


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## phillybeffandswiss

UMP is mixing aspects of sex acts, sex, sexual experimentation and degradation in a big pot labeled generalizations.


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## WandaJ

Even in BDSM there are limits set, and they are set by the submissive partner. There is a clear agreement on what allowed, what maybe willing to try and what is absolutely out of question. They can be renegotiated as relationship grows, but they do exist. If dominant partner goes beyond hard limits, he or dhe becomes an abuser. There is no more mutually satysfythat we are all different. ng sex.

Andit looks like you are enjoying doing things to your wife. Would yoube open to her doing all kinds of things to you? Suffocate, draw blood, keep you in a cage for hours????

I am all for pushing limits and exoring dark side, it is my thing, but you need to accept i


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## ConanHub

Cobalt said:


> I don't need a toilet slave or even giving facials. I would be happy doing my wife from behind but she thinks THAT's degrading.
> 
> She has a nice ass too


It must be done! What tragedy to deny you that view!&#55357;&#56850;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

WandaJ said:


> this is not about incompatible marriages. He claims that you are supposed to like whatever he likes. There are people who like to urinate on others in sexual act. Are you willing to let your wife to pee on your face if she fancies it? Yes, this is real kink, people get off on it, on both sides of the action.


Guess I missed the point of the post. 

Hey UMP. Am I supposed to like what you like? Is that the point?

My wife and I don't like anal. I really don't want a dildo up my hatch.

Was that the point?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MLK22

I think a lot of our boundaries and opinions on what is degrading with reference to sex acts are formed by our life experiences. 

I think we have to be open minded in a marriage. I think it is unfair to expect someone to honor a commitment to spend the rest of their lives with you, but deny them their fantasies. Expecting fidelity in such situations is unrealistic and unfair.

I also would want to have no part in peeing on someone, nor would I want them to pee on me. That's just me. To each his own. Which is why I also don't believe in waiting until marriage to have sex. How on earth can you know if you are compatible and have this OH SO IMPORTANT thing in common if you don't give a go before you promise to spend your life with someone.


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## that.girl

UMP said:


> Why would ANY sex act in the marriage bond make any woman feel degraded?


Because the fact that he promised himself to you does not erase your boundaries. 

I dont like facials, they feel degrading to me. They make me feel disrespected, like an object that he uses to get off, and that is a turn off for me. Him promising to only use my body to get off doesn't change that feeling. I sometimes agree to do it anyway, because it will make him happy. But the fact that he likes it does not make it feel less demeaning, it just means I'm more likely to agree to it anyway.

Marriage does not make every sex act okay for everyone. It just gives you a framework to explore.


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