# I want you to WANT TO...



## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I find myself getting stuck in this thought pattern, and I realize it's not healthy nor productive... so here I am for help. 

It's a cycle. I have trouble asking for what I need. I think that it should come organically, and that if it doesn't, it's because I wasn't worth the time or effort. I often feel worthless anyway (depression...it comes and goes), so this gets piled into the "reasons why kag123 is unlovable" and starts a whole downward spiral. 

Worse still, sometimes I don't even know what I need. So how do you ask for something when all you know is that you feel awful. 

Usually when I am feeling this downward spiral, I will distance myself from everyone... H included... until the storm passes. I'm so desperate not to let anyone else get dragged down into the vortex with me. It will take awhile, but I eventually come out the other side a more normal version of myself again. 

This has been a particularly low point. My birthday seems to trigger it especially... this one was rough because most people forgot it entirely, and I can usually brush that off but this year it really got to me, just how "forgettable" I am. Sounds silly when I type it out. 

I am on medication. I am in sporadic counseling. It works... until it doesn't. I keep at it and hope for the best. 

Right now, I find myself angry at my H for a few things, some of which I don't think are worth addressing with him because it will just cause a mess of hurt feelings. I think I just need time to get over it. That is my M.O. I usually weigh whether the outcomes of discussing something would be worth the fallout of bringing it up... and in most cases make a decision that it's just not worth it. If I can't see the resolution before we begin, I will tell myself there will be no good ending. 

Any tips on how to break this cycle of thinking.... of wanting everyone to intuit what you want and feeling that asking for things makes them meaningless... even just to know I'm not alone in feeling that way would be helpful. 



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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

I know I didn't write this OP, but I very well could have. My advice is worthless on this subject, however I found isolation is the best course for me. It goes beyond going in another room though. I get away from everyone and everything. Find some remote spot mid week in the middle of nowhere. No other people at all. Then I go for a 3-4 day walk. There's comfort in that isolation. Its not a fix, its a band-aid. But There's an endless supply of those band-aids always at the ready. 

The birthday thing is so familiar. I did this all the time. People remind others of their birthday leading up to it. I never did. Then I also don't have social media so there's nothing that tells anyone my birthday. I'll mention it once here and there, then I feel like nothing when people don't remember. As if I should be some sort of center to their universe. Ego makes us do funny things. But these self fulfilling prophecies remind us we are nothing. But not really. They confirm our own biased opinions of ourselves. Negative bias that is. It's not really anything to do with others. I know all this, but i can't help but do it still. 

We've learned to think less of ourselves so that when the day comes that others might think less of us, it doesn't hurt as bad. In the process, we make others feel less connected to us, so its a never ending spiral. At some point, they give up. ****, we practically beg them to just give up already. As we sink down beneath the waves, helping hands are reaching out to save us. We turn our backs. We will only disappoint them in the end. Save them from ourselves, and isolate. 

I don't know how to stop it either.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

I don't have any tips. But-

Happy belated birthday. I know that might sound hollow, but I truly mean it. I've told my friends and family that I'm not high maintenance with holidays, anniversaries, etc. But when it comes to my birthday, to please remember it and wish me a happy birthday. If they don't, I am crushed. If it's a friend, I "forget" theirs if it's a repeated offense. Calendars are nifty things. I have my loved ones' birthdays on my phone with a reminder. 

Here's the thing-if you won't be your own cheerleader, who will? and, does it ultimately cause resentment, your letting things blow over until you're over it? And how are they going to know unless you tell them? Do you think that's fair to them? If I've wronged someone or hurt a loved one's feelings, I would want to know so I could apologise and make it right and learn from my shortcoming.

Do you think you're conflict avoidant?


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

This thread gave me a thought. Ive often said I don't know how I even ended up here. My marriage is pretty darn good. Looking at my join date it's October. My birthday is late September. I was really bad about these self fulfilling prophecies a couple years ago. It was constant, on stupid stuff too. I wonder if a birthday episode also brought me here...

The only thing I do different is I actively watch for myself doing these things and work to fight them. Instead of wondering "will they remember my birthday?" I just tell them about it. Over and over. Like most people do. Guess what happens? People remember it. What I've found is the thought "they wouldn't remember if I didn't remind them" doesn't really cross my mind often, but when it does its still far less painful. Its also completely normal for people to give birthday heads up. We all have lives of our own. Busy lives. Forgetting isn't showing someone you don't care, it just shows we are humans not machines.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

lucy999 said:


> I don't have any tips. But-
> 
> Happy belated birthday. I know that might sound hollow, but I truly mean it. I've told my friends and family that I'm not high maintenance with holidays, anniversaries, etc. But when it comes to my birthday, to please remember it and wish me a happy birthday. If they don't, I am crushed. If it's a friend, I "forget" theirs if it's a repeated offense. Calendars are nifty things. I have my loved ones' birthdays on my phone with a reminder.
> 
> ...



I bet my house her resentment is self placed, not aimed at others. Its not that others hurt us, its that we continue to hurt ourselves. That's the clarity her isolation brings her. Her initial resentment of them turns towards self. Then she's back out of her funk. We can live with self loathing. We don't like being angry with others. Worst of all, others being angry with us. It's the ultimate conflict avoiding technique. Turn it all inward. That's the only place conflict is allowed.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

There was this show a few years back, "The Leftovers". 

It was about the second coming of Christ. The show begins with a portion of the entire population of the earth just suddenly disappearing. They are called "the departed". The show follows those who are left behind, trying to pick up the pieces. 

One of the main characters is a mom. She lost her entire family... two kids and her husband... on the day they departed. The show follows her anguish.

A scientist comes up with a theory that the departed are not dead... that they've been transported to a different plane of existence. He invents a machine that can transport people there. The main character spends a considerable amount of time tracking this scientist down, in order to get in the machine and be transported back to her family. 

She finally gets to the machine and it works. She is transported to this alternate reality. She tracks down her family and just as she is about to knock on the door to the house to be reunited with them, she glances in the window and sees them together, with a new woman. A new wife/mother. They look happy. They are laughing with each other. 

She decides she should not approach them and she leaves. She says "I realized I am a ghost that has no place there." She realized that they have made a new, better, life for themselves. 

She ends up transporting herself back to the world where they have departed and never tries to see them again. 

I struggle with this concept myself... of being a ghost. I often feel that my family would be better off with a new wife/mother. This isn't suicidal ideation... not at all. I don't think about harming myself. It just feels like this clairvoyant fact that sits in the back of my brain. Sometimes it is just a whisper, sometimes it is so loud it chokes out all other sound. I have often envisioned standing outside my own house, looking in at my family with a new woman, all smiles and laughter, and feeling a sense of peace and calm about it. A happiness FOR them. A peace I don't feel most of the time. Isn't that silly? 

I've always wondered if it's just a cowards dream, to fantasize about disappearing. 

To be clear... I'm not really going anywhere. I am just wondering if any other (sane) people ever have these thoughts. 



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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I know I didn't write this OP, but I very well could have. My advice is worthless on this subject, however I found isolation is the best course for me. It goes beyond going in another room though. I get away from everyone and everything. Find some remote spot mid week in the middle of nowhere. No other people at all. Then I go for a 3-4 day walk. There's comfort in that isolation. Its not a fix, its a band-aid. But There's an endless supply of those band-aids always at the ready.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, all of this is accurate. 

I just spent the entire weekend alone. I don't often do that (but I feel like I should more often). 

My H doesn't handle it well, when I want to be alone. He worries. And, he just wants me there 24/7. I am lucky that he feels that way I guess, but in the moment it feels suffocating. It also makes me feel extremely guilty for needing to disappear for awhile. 

The birthday thing. It's so stupid. It isn't the entire reason that I feel this way. It was just the straw that broke the camel's back... at least this time. 

I do have social media. I used to keep my birthday hidden on it. This year I changed it to public. A social experiment I guess. I get all the reminders on social media for everyone elses birthday, so I'm guessing some people also got a reminder for mine. Still went unnoticed. But, the worst wasn't that. The worst was that my own parents forgot. It's been a couple of weeks now and still no mention. How do you forget your own (only) childs birthday? 

And, that my H (and subsequently my children) also did not recognize it in the way that I needed them to. Ouch. 

My birthday was just a couple of days after Fathers Day. I had just made a big deal over my H and my dad. Then.... nothing. 

Anyway. Like I said... normally, I'd be better able to brush it off. It just hit me at a particularly bad time I guess. It has nothing to do with presents or money or anything like that. I don't even like being the center of attention. 

All I really wanted was someone... anyone really... to be like "Hey - you over there.... I see you. I'm happy you are here." 

That's it. 

I opened myself to the universe, and got a dose of reality. Now I'm stuck in that ugly downward spiral for awhile until I pick myself back up, get over it, and move on. 

I know it just takes me time to get there. Right now I'm just having a pity party for myself. 



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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

kag123 said:


> There was this show a few years back, "The Leftovers".
> 
> It was about the second coming of Christ. The show begins with a portion of the entire population of the earth just suddenly disappearing. They are called "the departed". The show follows those who are left behind, trying to pick up the pieces.
> 
> ...


Jesus, this is like a mirror. The part about disappearing is nobody would be angry with us would they? 

Beyond thinking of it, I've planned several different ways to actually do it. How would I not be traced? How would I be able to fund it? Where would I go? How long would I actually have before someone came looking? I've worked out over the years what I believe to be a sure fire way to do it. However, it would take months to start setting in motion. There's really no way to instantly do it. It would be a long slow process. Which is good because I can be impulsive. 

Not sure how sane I am, but yes others think about that stuff.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> The only thing I do different is I actively watch for myself doing these things and work to fight them. Instead of wondering "will they remember my birthday?" I just tell them about it. Over and over. Like most people do. Guess what happens? People remember it. What I've found is the thought "they wouldn't remember if I didn't remind them" doesn't really cross my mind often, but when it does its still far less painful. Its also completely normal for people to give birthday heads up. We all have lives of our own. Busy lives. Forgetting isn't showing someone you don't care, it just shows we are humans not machines.


Wow. You've made me tear up. This is so simple. Right in front of my face. But I've never EVER reminded a loved one about my birthday. I've always thought, "If they truly care for me, they'll remember."

It IS ok to remind them. People in my life talk about their upcoming birthdays. Why is mine off limits? Thank you so much. You have no idea.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

kag123 said:


> I do have social media. I used to keep my birthday hidden on it. This year I changed it to public. A social experiment I guess. I get all the reminders on social media for everyone elses birthday, so I'm guessing some people also got a reminder for mine. Still went unnoticed. But, the worst wasn't that. The worst was that my own parents forgot. It's been a couple of weeks now and still no mention. How do you forget your own (only) childs birthday?


Your parents missing it is terrible, I am so sorry. You need to call them out on this, ASAP. Its just not ok. Forgetting your great aunt or second cousin's bday is acceptable, but your child's is NOT ok. As far as your social media, did you double check to make sure you did it correctly? I tend to flub things like that sometimes. And I guess you didnt ask anyone to check for you... I know on Facebook, if you have it public, it will show the next day that "yesterday was her birthday". 



kag123 said:


> And, that my H (and subsequently my children) also did not recognize it in the way that I needed them to. Ouch.


What does this mean, the way you needed them to? How are they to know if you dont tell them? Any effort they make should be appreciated, but if it isnt what you need, then speak up. 



kag123 said:


> All I really wanted was someone... anyone really... to be like "Hey - you over there.... I see you. I'm happy you are here."


This is me too. I hate being the center of attention. But I feel exactly as you wrote here. I tend to be invisible too, by the way, always the forgotten one.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

3Xnocharm said:


> Your parents missing it is terrible, I am so sorry. You need to call them out on this, ASAP. Its just not ok. Forgetting your great aunt or second cousin's bday is acceptable, but your child's is NOT ok. As far as your social media, did you double check to make sure you did it correctly? I tend to flub things like that sometimes. And I guess you didnt ask anyone to check for you... I know on Facebook, if you have it public, it will show the next day that "yesterday was her birthday".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We were on vacation for two weeks over Fathers Day and my birthday. (That alone adds another layer of "First World Problems" and guilt for even having a complaint!).

I keep telling myself that my parents "forgot" because we went a few weeks without seeing them. It's not true though.... it takes almost no effort to send a text, call, email... whatever. Craziness. I literally cannot comprehend forgetting either of my kids birthdays. 

I am not going to say anything to them about it. We have a weird enough relationship as it is, I don't want to add any more tension to it. 

For my H and kids... all I wanted was 1) to be verbally told "Happy Birthday" at some point and 2) to have a 5 minute period where they turned their attention to me and gave me a birthday card. A cake or candles and the birthday song would have made my entire week, too. 

What really happened was, everyone woke up and got started with their day and seemed to forget anything about it. I let it go, we were busy. But, being in Vegas was really hard, because like every other person there is celebrating something publicly... so all the "birthday folks" seemed to be jumping out at me that day. Seeing people walking by with a birthday sash their friends put on them, someone else on our hotel floor had a huge bouquet of balloons delivered to their room. The worst was we went to dinner at a buffet, and the family at the table sat right next to us had snuck in a pack of birthday candles. I watched the dad pick up a cupcake off the buffet, secretly put candles in it and light them, and walk back to the table with the kids in tow to deliver them to the mom. Then all sing to her. This all happened like 10 feet from us... while my H and kids were oblivious. It was a really bad coincidence. Geez. 

Anyway. Later that evening I privately told my H I was disappointed and hurt, told him why... and it didn't go well. He got upset about it, felt like an ass, and then said "we were too busy to do anything today, I'm so sorry we hurt your feelings, I thought this vacation was part of your birthday present". I let it go and just went to bed. 

He had the kids make me birthday cards in our hotel room at 10pm when I was asleep and then wake me up and give them to me. I had to pretend that I was overjoyed by it so I didn't hurt my kids feelings. It's not their fault, he should have made time for them to do that earlier. 

I regretted saying anything to him about it at all, honestly. Then it was uncomfortable and strained and I knew that realistically anything that happened after that was going to feel forced. Being woken up and having to pretend to be *so surprised* about cards that you literally just told him to tell them to make... 

He has been with me for 15 years, 10 married. We have never once skipped cards for a birthday. I have always made sure our kids have done something to recognize all holidays and birthdays. 

On Fathers Day, I pretended I wasn't feeling well and sent him on an errand to get something from the nearby pharmacy that morning. While he was gone, I had the kids secretly make him cards, and when he got back to the room we did a little "surprise" thing with the cards and the Happy Fathers Day from the kids. It took me 5 minutes of "planning" to make that happen. We also took a detour out of our vacation to make a special visit to the post office, so that I could have the kids pick out post cards and write sweet messages on them to mail to the grandparents. 

My dad actually got his post cards... texted me to say thanks! and that he was delighted.... and said NOTHING to me about my birthday. Lol. 

It's just the effort that would have gone a long way. 


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

3Xnocharm said:


> Your parents missing it is terrible, I am so sorry. You need to call them out on this, ASAP. Its just not ok. Forgetting your great aunt or second cousin's bday is acceptable, but your child's is NOT ok. As far as your social media, did you double check to make sure you did it correctly? I tend to flub things like that sometimes. And I guess you didnt ask anyone to check for you... I know on Facebook, if you have it public, it will show the next day that "yesterday was her birthday".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You guys have the wrong disposition here. Took me a long ass time to figure this out too, but it's just a simple win and anyone can make a small change that makes a huge difference at least once per year. But this will bleed over into other areas and have a positive impact in more than just birthdays.

The fact is, I trained everyone around me to never make me the center of attention. Nobody is forgotten. Nobody is unloved. How many times has someone mentioned "hey, your birthday is coming up! What are you doing? We should do something to celebrate!" 

What is the response? "Oh it's not a big deal. Just another day. I don't want anything or anyone to go out of their way for me." This is repeated on valentines, Christmas, mothers/fathers day... for years and years you've gone about minimizing the importance of these days to others. Then one day after 20 years of doing this, your parents don't wish you a happy birthday. They forget. Well, you've been asking them to just forget about it for 20 years now. 


So here's the battle. Just get over the uncomfortable feeling of being the center of attention. The reality is, it's like 5-10 minutes tops. The office gets you a card and a nothing bunt cake and says happy birthday. Then they all go back to work. That's like 2 minutes of being slightly uncomfortable. You have a party with friends and family. Everyone gathers, they toast to you and maybe sing a song and you blow out some candles. Then everyone goes about talking to one another and having a good time. That's like 10 minutes tops of being slightly uncomfortable. 

So, 15 minutes out of your birthday being slightly uncomfortable with the attention, but feeling loved and sharing laughter with friends and family. Its that VS a few days of painful mind loops, feeling lonely, forgotten, sad, and ugly.

So there's your new perspective. I don't think our loved ones forgot on their own. They were taught to forget it. The stupid thing is we ourselves give because it feels good to us. Yet we can't extend that same gift to others when it comes to them giving back to us. Its selfish. I don't want to be uncomfortable, so I don't want you to feel the gift of giving to me. 

If you have to, think of it this way. You are the one still giving the gifts to them, even if it's your own name on that birthday cake.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@kag123 I think you would benefit from more effective and long term counselling.

And you are a good person who has contributed much to TAM.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

kag123 said:


> Any tips on how to break this cycle of thinking.... of wanting everyone to intuit what you want and feeling that asking for things makes them meaningless... even just to know I'm not alone in feeling that way would be helpful.


You're not alone. Unspoken expectations cause lots and lots of marital problems. 

It's better if you don't think of it in terms of "breaking a cycle".... because you will likely find that the cycle will not remain broken 

The cycle will continue. More and more opportunities for these thoughts will come. If you simply try to "stop" these thoughts, it won't work.

What must be done is that you have to replace this illogical thought with logical thought. 

Illogical: the other person can "read" my mind....
Illogical: the other person was part of the same family-of-origin, and "should" have adopted similar thoughts to mine.....

Logical: the other person cannot "read" my mind, and was trained to think differently than me.....

Illogical: the action or response I want will have more value if it comes extemporaneously from the other person
Illogical: I will feel "loved" and "valued" to a greater extent if the other person anticipates my desires

Logical: the action or response I want will have the exact same value if the other person does it in response to my request
Logical: the other person is engaged in his own thought-patterns and sequences, and likely does not perceive my desires

Each time the "cycle" brings you opportunity, stop..... do not simply acquiesce to your previous thought as if it is "true". Instead,
reject those illogical thoughts, and "replace" those thoughts with logical thoughts....


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## Smhart (Jul 2, 2019)

You just described how I felt for years!!! I just wrote about this in another post but how I got out of my funk was journaling to my husband. It was super hard for me to start doing it as I'm one like you that keeps things bottled up, tries to go with the flow to avoid confrontation with him.

It gave me a perspective on myself I so desperately needed. Our significant others aren't mind readers. For me personally it gave me perspective on our relationship. I realised that he wasn't as a big of a problem than I was myself. It holds me accountable. It opened lines of communication that wasn't previously there as well. My husband always knows where my head is at now. 

I tell him he doesn't have to read it everytime I write in it but he seems to enjoy doing so and honestly I have never felt closer to him than I do now. 

Everyone is different but in mine I keep it positive. I tell him all things I love and appreciate about him. I never mention our children unless I'm remarking on what an amazing father he is. I let him know what I find sexy about him and what I like in the bedroom and things that I'm too embarassed to say out loud. He loves it because he says it gives him clarity on some things, confirms other things for him, and who doesn't like hearing how they are truly loved and appreciated?

I keep the journal still but talking together is sooo much easier I found. It's not always just about us sometimes I describe things that I'm excited to do, or things that brought a smile to my face or made me laugh, things I want to work on personally. For the things I want to do better for myself...he knows and helps me through it now if he can or its just nice knowing that someone knows other than myself.

We barely fight now and usually they don't last very long because we are communicating better. He's able to step back now and realise he's wrong sometimes too. Our sex life has greatly improved. Our libidos are both high but we took care of things typically manually before but not so much anymore. 

I just find myself happier and more accepting of my flaws too. I couldn't for the life of me lose weight before, dieted, went to the gym, talked to my doctor...nothing helped. Now that I'm happier I'm dropping the pounds without even trying to drop them. I still eat healthier but I think all my stress and anxiety blocked me from actually losing the weight. 

I was a terrible house keeper before as a sahm but now that my mind is always clear, cleaning isn't such a big chore for me and I find I enjoy it and having a home I can be proud of or that people can unexpectly drop in and its no big deal. No embarassment and sorry for the mess speeches. 

I was able to quit drinking coffee oddly enough with the help of the journal along with smoking. So it's not just helping my relationship out, its helping me as well. 

It's nice to have a written record of why you think your spouse is amazing, especially during those rare fights now. He's overall happier as well and has been much more affectionate towards me to the point my youngest who's 7 remarked on how we're always hugging now. We smile and laugh more together. Things were rough before I started journaling and now I haven't been happier in my entire life, not even during our honeymoon phase was I happier. 

It may not work for you but its worth a try for sure to journal. It saved my marriage and saved me as well. Funk be gone!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

kag123 said:


> Right now, I find myself angry at my H for a few things, some of which I don't think are worth addressing with him because it will just cause a mess of hurt feelings. I think I just need time to get over it. That is my M.O. I usually weigh whether the outcomes of discussing something would be worth the fallout of bringing it up... and in most cases make a decision that it's just not worth it. If I can't see the resolution before we begin, I will tell myself there will be no good ending.


There is a lot of truth into the notion of picking your battles. You obviously do not want to pick a fight for something that has a petty resolution. Something like fighting with your husband over grammar rules of who versus whom you could probably just let that one go. But when it comes to picking and choosing your battles, this is generally a problem for those that engage in way too many battles as opposed to avoiding almost all conflicts. 

A lot about a good relationship is the ability to argue and engage in conflicts constructively with compassion for one another. As a matter of fact it should actually be seen as a positive thing because problem solving often gives couples a purpose. Some struggling marriages often find common ground and improve by teaming up to solve a home renovation project together such as upgrading the master bathroom. 

It is never about the destination. Stop focusing on the resolution but instead on the meaningful journey you can spend with your husband by working together to try and solve problems. Even the ones that seem unsolvable. 

Regards,
Badsanta


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## azimuth (May 15, 2018)

I feel for you. There is so much more I want to say but pressed for time. I will say though that I understand completely why you feel this way. People say "your husband isn't a mind reader" but it's a societal norm to say Happy Birthday to someone on their birthday. You don't need to be a mind reader to know that.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

TJW said:


> You're not alone. Unspoken expectations cause lots and lots of marital problems.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I appreciate this. I consider myself to be a rational person... fiercely so. Logic rules my life most of the time. Perhaps that is why these downward spirals are so upsetting to me... it is an admittance that I still carry illogical demons despite my best efforts to keep them stuffed away and unseen. 

You said: 

*"Illogical: I will feel "loved" and "valued" to a greater extent if the other person anticipates my desires

Logical: the action or response I want will have the exact same value if the other person does it in response to my request"*

Intellectually, I know you are right. But my heart screams - no, this isn't true. The action does NOT have the same value if I have to request it. 

I have never needed someone to tell me what to do. I know what needs to be done, and I do it. 

I don't know how to break myself of that thought process. 

-------------

My husband has always been aloof. Somewhere in the recesses of my mind, I know it was actually one of the qualities that made me pick him. He is the perfect companion for me to stay exactly as I have always been. He never expects anything of me. He never pushes me out of my comfort zone. He does not require my feelings or vulnerability. When I inevitably fall off the emotional wagon, he is infinitely more patient than I am, and he just waits me out. He knows that eventually I'll pick myself up and step back onto the path. He is the rock when I am the storming sea. He does not shame me when I have a tantrum or when I need space. I know he worries, and that he senses how fragile I am and that it scares him. But, he does not push. He allows me to hide the parts of myself that I don't want anyone else to see.

Sometimes, I wish he would push me. 

But, what right do I have to ask that of him? He is who he is. It feels wrong to ask him to change a core part of his being. He has been nothing but steady since the day I met him. I knew who he was. 

He's not a therapist, and it's not fair for me to expect him to be one. 

Anyway... What if he did change, and I hated it? 

We don't operate that way. We never have. From an outside perspective, I think others think our marriage is very cold and distant. We aren't touchy-feely types. We are the perfect intellectual match, we are best friends. 

This stuff in this thread... that isn't his burden. That's my burden. He's got his own load he's carrying and I don't think it's right for me to add to it. 

Last night he asked me how I was doing (mentally... because I've been keeping my distance over the last several days). I told him I was slowly coming out of it, but not totally there yet, and that there were still a few things I was angry with him about from my birthday. 

He said "I know."

Well, when were you planning to discuss it with me, or do something about it?

He said "When you got into a better frame of mind. It's not a good time when you are like this."

Even though it made me angry, I know what he said is the truth. I wanted to scream at him - you should have the courage to face me, no matter how angry I am! - but, he and I both know that there would be no point. Anger will only hinder progress. He knows I will eventually get myself back to normal. He knows I will eventually let all of this go. 

I know that I am intimidating and intense. 

So I just said "OK" and I let it drop. 





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## Noble1 (Oct 25, 2013)

Sounds like there are some good insights on your part.

Your post resonated with me as well since I "sometimes" feel exactly what you and others have put out on this thread.

I'm very logical, intellectual and very much a 'behind the scenes' personality. 

It seems to me that I always put others first and rationalize to myself that I do not need the same in return as I am strong and able to do it for me myself.

However, every once in awhile in the dark of night or the quiet of a specific moment, a wave of emotional and physical sadness/loneliness passes through me.

It is then that I wish people would do for me what I do for them all the time.

This does pass for me and I continue on until the next wave.

Still working on this for me so I have nothing to add except another voice that can relate to what you go through.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

kag123 said:


> I appreciate this. I consider myself to be a rational person... fiercely so. Logic rules my life most of the time. Perhaps that is why these downward spirals are so upsetting to me... it is an admittance that I still carry illogical demons despite my best efforts to keep them stuffed away and unseen.
> 
> You said:
> 
> ...


Have you tried different ways of communicating? When we are having a heated fight, I'll leave the house. Then we text back and forth lol. Sounds childish, but it's the most effective way we can get through an argument. It forces us to read which means actually listen, and think about a response. We had a very bad habit of speaking over one another, and it would escalate from there to where we went silent for 2-3 days at a time. We've found if we have a real issue and someone is heated, someone needs to leave the house. Usually I'll go. Then I just park somewhere and we work it out via text. Silly, but it works for us. Similar to the other person who mentioned journaling and leaving those notes for hubby. 

Who says your own communication has to follow a specific guideline? Find one that works. The first part is to just pick a way and try it. Keep working at it from different angles and find something good for you two. Communicate how you feel!

"Cold silence has a tendency to atrophy any sense of compassion"

-MJK


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Remembering other people's birthdays and organizing special occasions is called 'emotional labour,' and is almost always done by the woman in the family. So because the husband and children don't get used to being responsible for doing it, they tend to overlook it altogether.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Remembering other people's birthdays and organizing special occasions is called 'emotional labour,' and is almost always done by the woman in the family. So because the husband and children don't get used to being responsible for doing it, they tend to overlook it altogether.


Ouch! I have no data to refute this, but I'm wondering if you have any data to back it.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

I got nothing. But I sense your pain is very real.

((( HUGS )))


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

kag123 said:


> There was this show a few years back, "The Leftovers".
> 
> It was about the second coming of Christ. The show begins with a portion of the entire population of the earth just suddenly disappearing. They are called "the departed". The show follows those who are left behind, trying to pick up the pieces.
> 
> ...


And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what happens when a loving, kind, gentle, super sensitive soul starts thinking too deeply and too muchly.

I am not all of the above, but I am guilty of thinking too deeply and too muchly, at times, so I know where you are coming from.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Ouch! I have no data to refute this, but I'm wondering if you have any data to back it.


I have heard of this concept of emotional labor before. This is purely anecdotal, but the first time I heard it was via this comic:

https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/

Personally, I live this comic... not so much the chores, H is honestly a better housekeeper than I'll ever be. But, with the emotional items as was mentioned.... organizing events, schedules, making sure birthdays are recognized, making others feel loved and included, listening to others, anticipating their needs, making them feel special, celebrating achievements, keeping us in touch with friends and family, etc. 

It is exhausting. 

I'm a natural introvert, too, so some of the things on that list I actually dread...like social engagements and obligations. I still do it because I think it is important. 

I try very hard to teach both my H and my kids how to handle these things. It is important to me that they understand why I do the things that I do, and why I think they are important. 

I thought I was doing the right thing by modeling and explaining and teaching and asking.... but clearly, as my other posts in this thread demonstrate, I am failing miserably! 

Or maybe, I proved that those things are only important *to me*, and that no one else really cares if they get done or not? 

It's hard dealing with these thoughts and being a parent. My kids won't magically figure out how to be decent human beings if we don't teach them. So, even when I am deeply questioning myself and my own self worth, I try to keep that to myself and keep on showing them what I want them to know. Even when I am questioning myself as to why I am doing it. I know they need that consistency. 

I can't make my H care, but I want to make my kids care. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

kag123 said:


> I find myself getting stuck in this thought pattern, and I realize it's not healthy nor productive... so here I am for help.
> 
> It's a cycle. I have trouble asking for what I need. I think that it should come organically, and that if it doesn't, it's because I wasn't worth the time or effort. I often feel worthless anyway (depression...it comes and goes), so this gets piled into the "reasons why kag123 is unlovable" and starts a whole downward spiral.
> 
> ...


try reading these books. One is written for men but the message works. The other is written for women but works for everyone. The first is No More Mr Nice Guy; it's about learning to value yourself and not make covert contracts by giving to others while trying to get people to give back to you. I guarantee you were secretly hoping people would remember your birthday but you specifically didn't tell them ahead of time so you could 'judge' whether they made the cut. BTDT; I still do it from time to time. One thing that helped me with that is being on Facebook because your birthday is on there and everyone you're friends with will see it and wish you happy birthday; word gets around. Another thing is telling my husband (or whomever) what I would like for my birthday, ahead of time (gentle reminder that it's coming up - then, if he STILL forgets it, then I get to judge him).

Simple things to do, but hard at first. Think of it as an assignment from your therapist.

The second book is The Dance Of Anger. It's about learning to say no to people without them getting mad at you. All kinds of subtle stuff going on in there; it's an easy short book you can get at the library, but powerful message.

Basically, what I'm saying is you have to start ACTING like you matter before you will FEEL like you matter. And that's from my therapist, too.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

kag123 said:


> Personally, I live this comic... not so much the chores, H is honestly a better housekeeper than I'll ever be. But, with the emotional items as was mentioned.... organizing events, schedules, making sure birthdays are recognized, making others feel loved and included, listening to others, anticipating their needs, making them feel special, celebrating achievements, keeping us in touch with friends and family, etc.
> 
> It is exhausting.
> 
> ...


See, the thing here is that you're being codependent; you're relying on their reciprocation to make you feel good. That has to stop. Trust me, I get it. I have a DD28 who just had a baby this week and I'm only now being able to stop doing for her and then expecting her to be grateful. 

The trick here is to do the teaching, assign responsibilities, and then STEP BACK and let them stand or fall - that includes your husband. You tell them ahead of time what their jobs are and you make it clear that you won't take care of it. And then you explain what the consequences will be if they don't. Start out small. If your kids are older than 5, they can do their own laundry. So can your husband. 

My IC told me to pick one thing for him to do, since I did 95% of everything, and drop the responsibility for it. I asked him to pick one thing, and he refused. So I stopped doing his laundry. About a month later, when he had run out of clean clothes and he tried to chew me out, I just gave him 'the hand' and said "I asked you for help, you refused, so I had to pick one chore to let go of - it doesn't matter to me if your clothes are dirty. So if you want me to do your laundry, you need to step up and find some other chore to be responsible for. And he did. (for a while; that's another discussion about consistency)

So pick one thing for them to do that won't affect you personally, teach them, make it clear it's now their job, and STEP BACK. Offer to always give advice on how to do it, but your hands won't be doing it.

When DD28 was growing up, every year on her birthday, I gave her one more chore to do, because I wanted her to learn how to handle a home. By the time she left for college, she was mowing the lawn and fixing a flat tire and mopping and so on. 

That's what loving looks like: preparing them for adulthood. Plus kids love to learn new stuff if you do it right.

In the end, this is more about you. You've turned yourself into a slave, all on your own. It's your job to stop being a slave to the family and becoming a full partner.



> Or maybe, I proved that those things are only important *to me*, and that no one else really cares if they get done or not?


"They" say to pick the chores for yourself that matter the most to you. If a dirty kitchen literally makes you miserable, don't give that chore to someone else. But if you care more about germs in bathrooms than you do dirty dishes, you take on the bathroom and give the kitchen to your husband. See how that works?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

kag123 said:


> He said "When you got into a better frame of mind. It's not a good time when you are like this."
> 
> Even though it made me angry, I know what he said is the truth. I wanted to scream at him - you should have the courage to face me, no matter how angry I am! - but, he and I both know that there would be no point. Anger will only hinder progress. He knows I will eventually get myself back to normal. He knows I will eventually let all of this go.
> 
> I know that I am intimidating and intense. So I just said "OK" and I let it drop.


Now here's something important. He retreats from you for what you admit is your intimidating behavior. You have trained him to be wary of you. That's on you. And then he bares himself and is honest - that he's afraid of your anger/emotion - and all you did was say 'ok.' You had an opportunity there to fix this, just a little. You had an opportunity to open a bridge to him, to show vulnerability, to admit fault, to make HIM feel better, feel treasured, wanted. You could have said "Oh wow, you're right. I can't believe you felt like you couldn't say what you wanted to say because of how I react. I own that, and I'm truly sorry I've made you feel that way. I love you and I always want you to feel like you can be honest with me. Will you help me work on this? Point it out, be by my side as I feel the embarrassment and help me work out what would have been a better response? You can help me learn!"

I guarantee if you'd said that, he would have responded warmly and felt closer to you and felt more inclined to make YOU happy. Instead, the gulf just widened. It's not too late to have this talk, though.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Turnera - thank you for your responses. I was hoping you'd come by.  Congrats to you and your daughter btw on the new baby!

I guess my comic example wasn't really the best, because for us it has nothing to do with chores. H does way more housework than I do. If I give him a list of items to do - he's there, he does it without question. 

It's the intangible that we struggle with. The behind the scenes labor of remembering and thinking and anticipating..... I don't know how to teach that. I don't know *what* to tell him to do. 

My birthday, for example. He didn't forget the date. He's not that dumb. He didn't think it was important to me to celebrate it. Somewhere along the way, I've allowed him to think that is what I want. My anger over it is subsiding a little. I am able to see a little more clearly. I accept that I have taught him that this is what I wanted. 

I am trying to pinpoint where I gave him this misinformation. 

I know I've actually told him in the past that I expect cards, always. I know I've told him before that I want him to SAY happy birthday to me. I can't tell you the exact date/time that I did. It was awhile ago. 

What responsibility do I put on him to remember that? I cannot say I said those things recently. I didn't give him a 2 week reminder, for example, that I expect him to actually say "Happy Birthday" to me. Should I have? 

Same thing with my parents. It's difficult for me to accept that I should have reminded them to recognize my birthday. 

I cannot let go of the thought that I shouldn't *have to* tell people that. 

H doesn't forget his mom, brothers or our kids birthdays. He gets cards. He calls them to say Happy Birthday. 

He thought I didn't want that. 

He is a good man and he means well, so I am going to choose to believe that he didn't purposefully neglect me. 

I don't want to have false expectations of people or set them up to fail on purpose. That isn't fair, and it feels yucky to think about being like that. 

I have read NMMNG before... I will give it another read, and pick up the other one you mentioned too. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Now here's something important. He retreats from you for what you admit is your intimidating behavior. You have trained him to be wary of you. That's on you. And then he bares himself and is honest - that he's afraid of your anger/emotion - and all you did was say 'ok.' You had an opportunity there to fix this, just a little. You had an opportunity to open a bridge to him, to show vulnerability, to admit fault, to make HIM feel better, feel treasured, wanted. You could have said "Oh wow, you're right. I can't believe you felt like you couldn't say what you wanted to say because of how I react. I own that, and I'm truly sorry I've made you feel that way. I love you and I always want you to feel like you can be honest with me. Will you help me work on this? Point it out, be by my side as I feel the embarrassment and help me work out what would have been a better response? You can help me learn!"
> 
> 
> 
> I guarantee if you'd said that, he would have responded warmly and felt closer to you and felt more inclined to make YOU happy. Instead, the gulf just widened. It's not too late to have this talk, though.


Thank you for this. I had not considered this before. I need to mull over this a bit. 

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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

3Xnocharm said:


> Your parents missing it is terrible, I am so sorry. You need to call them out on this, ASAP. Its just not ok. Forgetting your great aunt or second cousin's bday is acceptable, but your child's is NOT ok. As far as your social media, did you double check to make sure you did it correctly? I tend to flub things like that sometimes. And I guess you didnt ask anyone to check for you... I know on Facebook, if you have it public, it will show the next day that "yesterday was her birthday".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shoot, I always expect I should be the center of attention! 😎.
I'm disappointed everytime DW tells me I'm not. ❤❤❤

But seriously, remember, you are important in more ways than you know, in any relationship whether SO, family, or anyone you've decided to form a bond with.

Everytime DW says I don't have to get her a card or gift, I say ok, but always, always do. 

Even flowers at her work, time to time. 

Now, she got me once on the no cards no gifts thing early on, but I've gotten smarter. Cause that didn't work.

But me, I figure everything's about me, most of the time. People always need something interesting to talk about! Hehehe.

DW keeps me humble though, no worries. ❤❤


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You may want to consider having 'state of the marriage meetings' once a month or so. It's to be a 'safe zone' where both of you take time to discuss how you feel things are going, what is making you happy, what's making you not happy, and then discuss - without emotion or blame - how to fix things. You could use a Talking Stick if you need to.

Otherwise, you can get Dr. Harley's Emotional Needs and Love Busters questionnaires, and fill them out and share with each other. It's an amazing way to learn more about your spouse. I recommend redoing them every 5 years or so. They teach you how to adjust yourself to make the marriage better; assuming both of you do it, of course.

But what it really sounds like to me is you need to work on (1) your belief in yourself and (2) your communication. Focus on those and your marriage will improve. Remember, he's a human being, too, and he has his own feelings, disappointments, and hopes.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Now here's something important. He retreats from you for what you admit is your intimidating behavior. You have trained him to be wary of you. That's on you. And then he bares himself and is honest - that he's afraid of your anger/emotion - and all you did was say 'ok.' You had an opportunity there to fix this, just a little. You had an opportunity to open a bridge to him, to show vulnerability, to admit fault, to make HIM feel better, feel treasured, wanted. You could have said "Oh wow, you're right. I can't believe you felt like you couldn't say what you wanted to say because of how I react. I own that, and I'm truly sorry I've made you feel that way. I love you and I always want you to feel like you can be honest with me. Will you help me work on this? Point it out, be by my side as I feel the embarrassment and help me work out what would have been a better response? You can help me learn!"
> 
> 
> 
> I guarantee if you'd said that, he would have responded warmly and felt closer to you and felt more inclined to make YOU happy. Instead, the gulf just widened. It's not too late to have this talk, though.


I want to revisit this.

I think this is an ideal that I'd like to strive for. The gap between where I am now and where I would need to be (mentally) to have paused and said something like this at that exact moment, seems insurmountable right now. 

I'm struggling here. 

H and I did talk this out eventually. I waited to talk to him until I could do it fully calm and without emotion, where I could carefully choose my words and make sure I didn't say anything out of line. It went well. I did not blame. I just used "I feel" statements and I gave him a list of actionable items that I would like in the future. He had tears welling in his eyes during this discussion, which was difficult for me. He didn't let those tears fall but it is incredibly difficult for me to look at him and continue talking when I see that. It feels like I should immediately shut up and comfort him. I didn't say anything about it. I didn't cry myself. 

Our talk was less than 10 minutes. He was silent, so it was like a monologue I guess... at the end he said he understood and didn't have anything to say in response. That's how they all go. I end up feeling like I'm scolding him or something, and immediately after I feel horrible about it and regret it. I usually experience regret for awhile after these types of talks. 

I want there to be more of an actual back and forth discussion, but there never is. He tiptoes around me instead and acts like a scolded puppy while I am talking. 

It's been several days since that talk and I feel.... worse. But, he seems better now and I'm trying so hard to get over it myself. He's happy, everything is moving back to normal, this is good. Why do I still feel terrible. 

I'm not angry anymore. 

One thing that is sticking in my mind, for whatever reason. We were intimate the morning of my birthday. I thought it was like starting the day off on the right foot... but as the day progressed and my disappointment began overwhelming me, I started feeling regret over our morning activities. I felt taken advantage of, like he "got his" and now the rest of the day didn't matter. I really have no logical reason to think he would feel that way, but I can't get the idea out of my head. 

As a result, I have not been in the mood for any more intimacy since then. It feels emotional icky to even think about it. 

I did tell him that I felt that way. He was offended that I would even think he thinks that way. (I think he is right to be offended. He has always been a good husband.)

I finally caved last night though, after a 2 week dry spell, and of course H is walking around on cloud nine today but I am sitting here feeling... worse. 

I do not like having sex when I am not in a good place mentally. It feels like it deepens the divide between H and I rather than bringing us closer, because I think he equates sex with "Everything is great now! Whew!" while I'm not there yet. 

I try to put a positive spin on it and think of it like giving him a gift, helping our marriage.... that it will pay off later. "Fake it till you make it" kind of stuff. That feels gross too, though. 

I think I need to find some more space to think this over. 







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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Hmmm. So you're basically saying that unless your marriage is all rainbows and unicorns, you shouldn't be expected to want sex? Who told you that? How did that become a mantra in your mind? You realize that's impossible, right? You seem one step away from the kind of person who just hops from guy to guy, hoping for the warm fuzzies. 

But what you seem to be missing is the piece of marriage that is...there are a million reasons to be in a marriage. And having issues with your spouse is just one of those pieces of the puzzle. NO marriage is without issues. 

I'm not gonna lie, kag. You come across as somewhat entitled. Like you have this vision of what you deserve in a marriage. Not in a mean way, I'm not saying you're a bad person or anything. It just seems like you have this assumption about what you should be getting out of it. You brought up him being happy, and that ticks you off? Gotta wonder where that's coming from.


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