# Do you enjoy pleasing your partner



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

For those of you in generally good relationships, with reasonably balanced sex lives, do you actively enjoy doing sexual things for your partner, or do you just do it to be nice because they do things for you. 

Its a slightly subtle difference but I think its worth discussing:

Lets say my wive enjoys receiving oral, but I don't particularly like doing it. I might do it out of a sense of fairness because she does it for me, or I might do it because I enjoy her enjoyment, even if it does nothing for me physically.


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

Of course I enjoy it!
Big reason is, I get off getting her off!
It works both ways too!

We both have a few things that aren't really a thrill, just speaking for ourselves, but the results for the other make it a thrill. :grin2:
Makes me want to do it! Her too!
How it should be no?


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I love pleasing him. It thrills me so much. 
I just want to do it way more.


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## Looking2Change (Jul 24, 2016)

ABSOLUTELY, nothing better than pleasing my wife when we do have sex. I could go down on her for hours and just love getting her worked up and to the point she can't wait any longer and then doing anything and everything she enjoys.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Even if wife wanted something that did nothing for me, I would do it to please her.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Love love LOVE pleasing my hubby. Absolutely love it. There is one thing he likes to do that I don't like (it does absolutely nothing for me but he loooooves to do it) but I let him do it...it causes me no pain or distress so I figure why not, he loves it. Lol.

I can't get enough of my gorgeous hubby, especially with the way my hormones are raging right now...I'm very frisky today and he's not due home for hours....doh!


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

These are the answers I expected and are the way I feel. But if LD/HD discussions I hear something very different. I hear people who whose partners never seem to be able to put in the effort to please them.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I literally get a HIGH feeling pleasing my husband sexually.. I can always work up the enthusiasm -even if I'm not feeling horny in the moment...he knows he can reach for me day or night.. any time.. and I'm his...there is just something about getting lost in each other in this way..feeling his desire is a huge turn on for me... nothing is more thrilling....

There are some things in this life I am passionate about... this is ONE of those...he's so good to me.. I want to give back... he feels deeply loved by my desire.. (and I fully get this.. as I feel the same)...it's never been a tit for tat thing...

Our attitudes are more like.. His body is mine.. mine is His.. we are there to pleasure each other... one of the greatest joys of being married...it's something that never grows old... 

I haven't hit menopause yet.. Some say these feelings will change...I don't want them to ever go away.. some say our brains is the largest sex organ...I want them to be right..this will be put to the test when our hormones take a dive...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Why I ask frustrated HD folks - to try and reboot through non sexual touch. To give and get massages. Rarely works.

They are usually unwilling to ask their LD spouse for a massage. Because they know their partners desire to please them - has left the house.





uhtred said:


> These are the answers I expected and are the way I feel. But if LD/HD discussions I hear something very different. I hear people who whose partners never seem to be able to put in the effort to please them.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Yes I do.


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## VizCaya (Oct 19, 2015)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> Even if wife wanted something that did nothing for me, I would do it to please her.


normal ppl do this , selfish ppl never give a try ...


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## VizCaya (Oct 19, 2015)

uhtred said:


> These are the answers I expected and are the way I feel. But if LD/HD discussions I hear something very different. I hear people who whose partners never seem to be able to put in the effort to please them.


LD/HD in my opinion is not the cause , the real cause is having a selfish partner .

let me give an example ,if a wife is HD and her partner is LD , not very potent , will she leave him if he was a giver , if he cant stay hard , he can use his tongue , his feet , his hand ....

Ld is not the major issue at All , the problem occur when LD is associated with selfish personality .


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## VizCaya (Oct 19, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I literally get a HIGH feeling pleasing my husband sexually.. I can always work up the enthusiasm -even if I'm not feeling horny in the moment...he knows he can reach for me day or night.. any time.. and I'm his...there is just something about getting lost in each other in this way..feeling his desire is a huge turn on for me... nothing is more thrilling....
> 
> There are some things in this life I am passionate about... this is ONE of those...he's so good to me.. I want to give back... he feels deeply loved by my desire.. (and I fully get this.. as I feel the same)...it's never been a tit for tat thing...
> 
> ...


may God bless your clean soul , you are a wonderfull lady .
lucky him !


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Why I ask frustrated HD folks - to try and reboot through non sexual touch. To give and get massages. Rarely works.
> 
> They are usually unwilling to ask their LD spouse for a massage. Because they know their partners desire to please them - has left the house.


Could it be, even before going the route of massage, to determine whether both are wanting to improve intimacy (and perhaps touch) and what that means to each of them?

What my husband considers intimacy can be different to mine. It was important for us to recognize this.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

To answer the question....... YES!


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Unselfishly pleasing your partner/spouse is preeminently what true love is all about!

And let's just say that I wouldn't really have it any other way!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

uhtred said:


> For those of you in generally good relationships, with reasonably balanced sex lives, do you actively enjoy doing sexual things for your partner, or do you just do it to be nice because they do things for you.
> 
> Its a slightly subtle difference but I think its worth discussing:
> 
> Lets say my wive enjoys receiving oral, but I don't particularly like doing it. I might do it out of a sense of fairness because she does it for me, or I might do it because I enjoy her enjoyment, even if it does nothing for me physically.


For me it was a bit different. My wife rejected me A LOT. Instead of getting my feelings hurt I learned to enjoy sexual denial so that her rejections eventually began to please me. When I managed to do this it actually did improve the quality of our sex life, because I was no longer getting frustrated and instead being more playful. 

So at first I did not enjoy being rejected, but I learned to like it to help accommodate my wife's personality in bed. Today instead of rejection, it works a little more like a playful shît test, and each time I pass she will then knock my socks off! 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Enjoying being rejected and not having sex is not easy to understand, except as part of a D/S relationship (which is fine).. Under what conditions do you "pass"?





badsanta said:


> For me it was a bit different. My wife rejected me A LOT. Instead of getting my feelings hurt I learned to enjoy sexual denial so that her rejections eventually began to please me. When I managed to do this it actually did improve the quality of our sex life, because I was no longer getting frustrated and instead being more playful.
> 
> So at first I did not enjoy being rejected, but I learned to like it to help accommodate my wife's personality in bed. Today instead of rejection, it works a little more like a playful shît test, and each time I pass she will then knock my socks off!
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This seems to be a key question: To a LD person is sex something completely different that it is to a HD, and something that is very difficult to give. OR - are LD people who don't have sex with their partners just selfish?

There are so few true LDs who post here. Most of the LDs who post are situational LD where for very understandable reasons they don't want sex with their partners. 

True LDs do exist but tend not to post because they don't view sex as important. 




VizCaya said:


> LD/HD in my opinion is not the cause , the real cause is having a selfish partner .
> 
> let me give an example ,if a wife is HD and her partner is LD , not very potent , will she leave him if he was a giver , if he cant stay hard , he can use his tongue , his feet , his hand ....
> 
> Ld is not the major issue at All , the problem occur when LD is associated with selfish personality .


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

uhtred said:


> This seems to be a key question: To a LD person is sex something completely different that it is to a HD, and something that is very difficult to give. OR - are LD people who don't have sex with their partners just selfish?


i think that there are several kinds. There are couples who are each willing to do what it takes to make their partner happy, and to understand. The HD is willing to accept less because they understand it's just how their partner is made, not a bid for control or being selfish. The LD is willing to operate at the highest levels they are capable of, and each communicate what they need to get there. These people find a way to compromise. To give what they can. This is the kind who seem to make it long term.

But there are many ways to get it twisted. Where the LD is selfish, where the HD is pushy and inconsiderate, where love languages aren't met, and there is no communication. and more.

I love to give, just for the sake of pleasing. I love to give in bed, because i love sex. It was a high getting my ex husband off, being creative, trying to find stuff that my repressed stick in the mud would even try.

I came to realize that he got off on telling me no. That controlling me and withholding gave him the good feels instead. And that was the end of it, there is no fixing that, no compromises to be made.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Enjoying being rejected and not having sex is not easy to understand, except as part of a D/S relationship (which is fine).. Under what conditions do you "pass"?


Not sure what you mean by "pass." But in order for it to work, I somewhat forced her to gradually turn what was cold and rejecting into something that was more playful and teasing. Both scenarios involved no sex, but one at least made me feel like she cared about me a little more.

Badsanta


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Yes, and vice versa. IMO, if that is not the case, it may be time for a new partner as a mutual willingness to please (and support, encourage, show compassion and kindness, etc., both in and out of the bedroom) is the true measure of a relationship's health, IMO.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> These are the answers I expected and are the way I feel. But if LD/HD discussions I hear something very different. I hear people who whose partners never seem to be able to put in the effort to please them.


That's the thing. If you love it, it isn't effort!


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

YES! I am absolutely thrilled when I please my partner to the point of orgasm. 



sixty-eight said:


> ...These people find a way to compromise. To give what they can. This is the kind who seem to make it long term.


I want to disagree with this. First off, it's probably not as black and white as LD or HD with everyone. There are many shades of gray. However, I think the ones that make it long term are the ones that don't need to compromise because they are matched on desire and are willing to not just meet their partner halfway, but fulfill each other out of love and the desire to see each other as happy as possible. I think those are the ones that last. We probably never see those people on this forum except for the crazy, wild sex ideas... For the LD/HD match, I think it's just a struggle and it is the least likely to be successful long term. 

I remember being told in MC that I was HD for wanting to be intimate more than 2 times a week and I was told I would have to temper my expectations and compromise. I blew up. I said after 14 years of a sexless marriage, the only compromise I am willing to make is for her to meet my HD needs for the next 14 years. That is fair on paper, but it essentially means divorce, because I don't believe for a minute that she could change like that. :frown2:


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> That's the thing. If you love it, it isn't effort!


this is not directed at you personally, but this perspective overall is a two sided coin

it's great when the desire is there because you're just getting what you want anyway

when it's not there, it's the opposite extreme-- because the expectation is that it should be effortless, any effort required at all is taken as a signal that it is wrong, unnatural and should not be done

I actually think this is a fine conclusion to draw, but I'm not sure everyone always realizes that this type of dynamic only operates in the "on" position or "off" (no in between)


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

We have seen this so many times on TAM where the HD person is pissed because they dont get it enought or at all. And the LD person complaining that their H/w is an animal who wants it too much. I think that people divorce for lots of reason: money,sex, cheating etc but when it sex or lack of sex, it leaves such a negative imprint on the one who wanted it more. 

Because they feel not wanted or rejected. As if they were not good enough or they did some so wrong for wanting sex. What I think LD spouses should understand, is that in not "giving" their h/w what they needed is destroying them. Oh, I know some of you are going get all pissey and defensive about this. The reason I am saying this is because I have read so many of these post and see how upset and worn down these people are. 

Going back to the main question. 

I do enjoy pleasing my man and he takes special pride in pleasing me. I am peri-meno so sometimes, it takes a long time to get me there and sometimes I know it's not going to happen. I have no problem giving myself to my H. I am his as he is mine's. I love knowing that he is happy about our sex life. And let me tell you, if I asked for the moon that man will get it for me. Because he is very well pleased.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> this is not directed at you personally, but this perspective overall is a two sided coin
> 
> it's great when the desire is there because you're just getting what you want anyway


This is the thing you refuse to understand. Getting what you want has NOTHING to do with desire. Desire has to to with desire. Period. 



> when it's not there, it's the opposite extreme-- because the expectation is that it should be effortless, any effort required at all is taken as a signal that it is wrong, unnatural and should not be done


The problem is that effort and desire are at odds with each other. Effort squelches desire. It certainly is not going to help create desire. So if the goal of this effort is to improve desire, it is not going to work. And she KNOWS it is not going to work. All it is going to do is set up an expectation of more and more sex and thus more and more nagging for and discussion about more and more sex. **** her desire. 

Now if you mean working on all aspects of the marriage so that desire really can resume, then I am all for it. But that is not what I hear by and large on this board when I hear "effort". I hear she should just put out more.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> The problem is that effort and desire are at odds with each other.


Agreed. If the LD has to force themselves to have sex, it may occur but it won't be out of desire.



> Now if you mean working on all aspects of the marriage so that desire really can resume, then I am all for it. But that is not what I hear by and large on this board when I hear "effort". I hear she should just put out more.


To me, effort can come in several forms. One is to be honest about what is blocking desire. If you need me to hit the gym, tell me. If you need me to do something different in bed, tell me. If you need more time to yourself, so you need me to be home from work more or do more of the household chores or take care of the kids so you have a reprieve, tell me. Do not hide the truth to spare my feelings. Do not hide the truth to avoid conflict. Put in the effort to get out of your comfort zone and put the unpleasant truths on the table.

Second form of effort is to be willing to compromise in priorities or in how things get done. If you need time for yourself to recharge so you can feel desire for me, then you need to be willing to let go of some of the things you are spending your time and energy doing. I may fold the towels wrong, or the kids may be dirty when you get home from reading a book at the library. Not how you would do things. But if you won't accept my help in taking things off your plate, then I can't give you time to yourself. If the only thing you really want from me is "just stop wanting sex for the next 20 years so I can devote myself to raising our kids" well, that isn't making any effort to meet me in the middle.

And this flows both ways. Maybe I have a job that requires lots of travel. Maybe I am never home during the week. Maybe I am away for 3 weeks and then home 1 week. Maybe, in order to desire me, you need me home every night. Maybe I have to accept a job that pays less or is less prestigious in order to be available to meet your needs on a daily basis so you can desire me.

Effort is not about what happens when the HD asks for sex or when the LD consents. Effort is about arranging one's life so the ingredients for desire are present. If the LD is not willing to do that, then they aren't making the effort required to bridge the gap.

Not saying they should or they must. Just saying if they aren't willing to compromise on how they arrange their day and week, they shouldn't be surprised to be married to someone who isn't happily married.

Just as the HD, if they can't trigger desire in their partner yet hounds the LD for sex, similarly should not be surprised if the LD is unhappy.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> This is the thing you refuse to understand. Getting what you want has NOTHING to do with desire. Desire has to to with desire. Period.


I think we're just using the same words differently. I agree that desire = desire. My point is when both partners desire one another, it just happens and no one has to "try." 

When you don't have this, it's basically a pointless struggle that leaves both people feeling misunderstood and resentful. 



NobodySpecial said:


> The problem is that effort and desire are at odds with each other. Effort squelches desire. It certainly is not going to help create desire. So if the goal of this effort is to improve desire, it is not going to work. And she KNOWS it is not going to work. All it is going to do is set up an expectation of more and more sex and thus more and more nagging for and discussion about more and more sex. **** her desire.


Again, I agree with all of this. People in these situations have conflicting goals. 



NobodySpecial said:


> Now if you mean working on all aspects of the marriage so that desire really can resume, then I am all for it. But that is not what I hear by and large on this board when I hear "effort". I hear she should just put out more.


I also agree with you on the "put out more" point. 

I'm am curious about your other point ("working on all aspects of the marriage"). 

This actually seems inconsistent with the other points you're making above that desire = desire. Maybe I'm just not following you here.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> One is to be honest about what is blocking desire . . .
> 
> . . . Effort is not about what happens when the HD asks for sex or when the LD consents. Effort is about arranging one's life so the ingredients for desire are present.


this assumes that there is a reason for the lack of desire and that there is something which can be done to turn it back on

I'm obviously pretty skeptical regarding these assumptions


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

My husband really enjoys watching me orgasm and I unselfishly always please him in this way.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Part of this is that there are two views. 

To some (mostly HD) people, sex and pleasing their partners is fun. If the partner wants them to sprinkle glitter on themselves and pretend to be a vampire, or perform pretty much any sex act that is not significantly uncomfortable, its all good. They actively enjoy their partner's enjoyment.

To others (mostly LD), sex is special. It is enjoyable in the right circumstances, but if they are not in the mood it is awful, degrading, disgusting. Requests for unusual activities are seen essentially as perversions. A request for a specific sex act is viewed as completely unreasonable and possibly abusive. Its not that they are selfish, but that the request is for something that it is very difficult for them to provide.

To the first sort of person, the second seems terribly selfish. To the second the first seems terribly demanding.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Part of this is that there are two views.
> 
> To some (mostly HD) people, sex and pleasing their partners is fun. If the partner wants them to sprinkle glitter on themselves and pretend to be a vampire, or perform pretty much any sex act that is not significantly uncomfortable, its all good. They actively enjoy their partner's enjoyment.
> 
> ...



As someone who has been both the HD and the LD I don't really agree with the selfish label. 

The LD person may have a very limited understanding of sexuality, which is why their partner gets the pervert label. But they're wrong. Just wrong because there really is no normal in sexuality. (Except those pervs who dress up in furry costume cause that is ..just NO)

The LD person may not feel loved. Everyone is different and how they feel love may be very different than what you're familiar with.

Covert contracts will cause the LD wife to feel manipulated into sex, making her even less likely to want to give.

Then there are the BSC LD's. Those women who can't have sex until everything everywhere is absolutely perfect, or can't have sex because last month you didn't notice her hair cut. If your wife is like this, your life will be miserable because there is no pleasing someone who doesn't want to be pleased.

Do not accept the pervert label! Unless you're a furry in which case you are a perv. And those broney guys...ugh not sexy at all.


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> My husband really enjoys watching me orgasm and I unselfishly always please him in this way.


YES! That's how it works for us too!

Many times when my wife O's, when I'm giving her oral, I've totally lost it, and shot my load on the bed, or floor, or wherever. No touching on me....just WHAM! 
It's a rush when I get her there! I'm proud of me!

Usually when it happens, it's after we have been apart for a while, playing catch-up, but still.

Should mention, we are both HD.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Agreed. If the LD has to force themselves to have sex, it may occur but it won't be out of desire.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> This actually seems inconsistent with the other points you're making above that desire = desire. Maybe I'm just not following you here.


Genuine intimacy that promotes genuine reciprocal caring.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> As someone who has been both the HD and the LD I don't really agree with the selfish label.


The selfish label is very tempting for the LD, but my wife is incredibly generous and giving in other matters. I have come to believe that it is less about selfishness and more about trust, commitment, and love. I believe my wife does not trust that my intentions and motives come from a place of love and affection. She looks at me as if I am some animal with an insatiable physical desire that has nothing to do with love. She feels like an object to be used by me. She has literally said that. After talking about it more in counseling, it has just blown up our marriage into pieces because the more she talked the more I realized that she does not trust me. And it was very painful to see my attempts to be affectionate characterized like that. 



Anon Pink said:


> The LD person may have a very limited understanding of sexuality, which is why their partner gets the pervert label. But they're wrong. Just wrong because there really is no normal in sexuality. (Except those pervs who dress up in furry costume cause that is ..just NO)


I agree



Anon Pink said:


> Covert contracts will cause the LD wife to feel manipulated into sex, making her even less likely to want to give.


Funny. I feel like my wife and I had two completely definitions of what marriage meant. So it was like we were playing by different contracts. I wish when you got the marriage license, there was an EXPLICIT form that made you say what you expect out of marriage. My expectation was to fully place my trust in my wife and I did. I would do anything for her in the bedroom to make her happy and I expected the same from her, just like when we were dating. But, for her, she learned as a girl that boys only want one thing and you can't just give it to them, you have to control that and sex is mostly for making babies. Marriage to her is about a partnership of resources more than it is about intimacy. To her, cleaning her car is how I can express my love for her. That's when she said her #1 love language was acts of service. To me, that is not a love language. If you clean my car, I'll be more inclined to be affectionate... ? I really hate that idea. 



Anon Pink said:


> Then there are the BSC LD's. Those women who can't have sex until everything everywhere is absolutely perfect, or can't have sex because last month you didn't notice her hair cut. If your wife is like this, your life will be miserable because there is no pleasing someone who doesn't want to be pleased.
> 
> Do not accept the pervert label! Unless you're a furry in which case you are a perv. And those broney guys...ugh not sexy at all.


I agree!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

All of this simply confirms for me that LDs and HDs should not have LTRs. Sometimes it's too late when they figure it out, but that doesn't mean they can't end it and move on to find someone compatible. Well, unless - despite all the sexual conflict - they actually love each other and decide to put up with the issues anyway. Then, it's their choice to deal with the misery! I put up with the misery for a long time - until I couldn't. Then I moved on and found a compatible partner and I'm now again married, but happy about it.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Lurkster said:


> YES! That's how it works for us too!
> 
> Many times when my wife O's, when I'm giving her oral, I've totally lost it, and shot my load on the bed, or floor, or wherever. No touching on me....just WHAM!
> It's a rush when I get her there!* I'm proud of me!*
> ...


And you should be. Gold star for you today Sir, wear it with pride.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Mrs. MbH has been away for two days at training for a new job, and is on her way home now. We're both going to be tired at work tomorrow.


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> Mrs. MbH has been away for two days at training for a new job, and is on her way home now. We're both going to be tired at work tomorrow.


Wait till you find out what can happen after two months!!!

:wink2:


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Genuine intimacy that promotes genuine reciprocal caring.


OK.

but caring does not equal desire either.

sometimes they go together, sometimes not.

do you agree?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> OK.
> 
> but caring does not equal desire either.
> 
> ...


I think the key is genuine intimacy. But I guess for some people that won't rekindle desire... Not sure. Assuming that there was genuine desire in the first place.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Then there are the BSC LD's. Those women who can't have sex until everything everywhere is absolutely perfect, or can't have sex because last month you didn't notice her hair cut. If your wife is like this, your life will be miserable because there is no pleasing someone who doesn't want to be pleased.


what does "BSC" mean?

the thing about this type is that they confuse cause and effect.

they believe that they don't want you because you f'd up some other thing, but the real fact is that they just don't want you so they always see everything you do through a negative lens.

if they were with a guy they actually wanted, everything negative would probably become positive and the guy could do nothing wrong.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> *Do not accept the pervert label! Unless you're a furry in which case you are a perv. And those broney guys...ugh not sexy at all.*


Agreed! There can be such a thing as too much tolerance!


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> what does "BSC" mean?
> 
> the thing about this type is that they confuse cause and effect.
> 
> ...


Bat sh!t crazy. I believe


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

wantshelp said:


> The selfish label is very tempting for the LD, but my wife is incredibly generous and giving in other matters. I have come to believe that it is less about selfishness and more about trust, commitment, and love. I believe my wife does not trust that my intentions and motives come from a place of love and affection. She looks at me as if I am some animal with an insatiable physical desire that has nothing to do with love. She feels like an object to be used by me. She has literally said that. After talking about it more in counseling, it has just blown up our marriage into pieces because the more she talked the more I realized that she does not trust me. And it was very painful to see my attempts to be affectionate characterized like that.
> 
> 
> I agree
> ...


How do you think your wife would respond if you opened a dialogue with her about sex? How does she define normal sex life? How does she come to that conclusion? Who and what influenced her attitude toward sex and sexuality? Would she be interested in learning a bit more about the normal variations of sexual desire?

Frankly, I really think people like this should be challenged on their attitudes. Grow some intentionality in their life and not just follow the herd.

Does she think her son should marry a woman who isn't into sex? Should her daughter grow up believing that sex is something that has to be judiciously doled out to keep a man in line?


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

wantshelp said:


> YES! I am absolutely thrilled when I please my partner to the point of orgasm.
> "...These people find a way to compromise. To give what they can. This is the kind who seem to make it long term."
> 
> 
> ...


I meant more that the mismatched drive couples that last, are the ones that find a happy medium. That both care enough about each other to accommodate at least some of the others wants and needs.

people like my ex, who get off on the power trip and make you beg and then still stay no. That sh!t can only end in misery. divorce is the best case scenario.


Obviously it's much much easier if you want the same things and there is no need to compromise in the first place. I was only referring to mismatched drive couples.

maybe i wasn't clear about that, sorry


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> what does "BSC" mean?
> 
> the thing about this type is that they confuse cause and effect.
> 
> ...



I don't know...you could be right but from what I've seen of women who tend to be on the Bat Sh"t Crazy side believe that they are entitled to perfect bliss with perfect kids and perfect house and perfect wardrobe and perfect careers... They're entitled. And since you haven't participated well enough in their kingdom of entitlement, you need to get with the program.

I haven't known anyone IRL who left a marriage that they caused to be sexless to renter marriage and be swinging from the rafters. If these women really don't want you, why are they staying married to you? Because it fits and it doesn't cause them too much strenuous growth. 

These are the people who will never be happy no matter who they are partnered with.

I know you have no plans to leave your marriage and I think that's just a waste of your youth and vitality. Your wife may be smoking hot but what exactly does that mean to you? How does her hotness make you feel loved and wanted and appreciated?

Saw the same stuff with my brother and his BSC ex. He had one year of health with his new GF before he was diagnosed with ALS. Don't waste your time in a marriage that isn't working.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

My experience with attempting such conversations is that they go nowhere because the LD and HD don't think in the same terms.

The LD sees any such discussion from the HD as an attempt to get more sex, to get an unreasonable amount or type of sex. If the HD attempts to indicate how miserable the lack of sex makes them, its blackmail. If they attempt to try to improve things its transactional. sex. At a very basic level the LD believes that the HD is completely unreasonable in their wishes. They are so sure that the only couples who have sex regularly are where the woman is being pressured / used.

The HD of course sees the LD as unreasonable. They can't understand why the LD won't spend a half hour every few days to make them happy. They feel that they have tried everything to "fix" the problem - which of course doesn't work because there is nothing to fix. 








Anon Pink said:


> How do you think your wife would respond if you opened a dialogue with her about sex? How does she define normal sex life? How does she come to that conclusion? Who and what influenced her attitude toward sex and sexuality? Would she be interested in learning a bit more about the normal variations of sexual desire?
> 
> Frankly, I really think people like this should be challenged on their attitudes. Grow some intentionality in their life and not just follow the herd.
> 
> Does she think her son should marry a woman who isn't into sex? Should her daughter grow up believing that sex is something that has to be judiciously doled out to keep a man in line?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> this assumes that there is a reason for the lack of desire and that there is something which can be done to turn it back on
> 
> I'm obviously pretty skeptical regarding these assumptions


There's a reason and in hardcore LD cases it's mostly control related, not desire.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

uhtred said:


> My experience with attempting such conversations is that they go nowhere because the LD and HD don't think in the same terms.
> 
> The LD sees any such discussion from the HD as an attempt to get more sex, to get an unreasonable amount or type of sex. If the HD attempts to indicate how miserable the lack of sex makes them, its blackmail. If they attempt to try to improve things its transactional. sex. At a very basic level the LD believes that the HD is completely unreasonable in their wishes. They are so sure that the only couples who have sex regularly are where the woman is being pressured / used.
> 
> The HD of course sees the LD as unreasonable. They can't understand why the LD won't spend a half hour every few days to make them happy. They feel that they have tried everything to "fix" the problem - which of course doesn't work because there is nothing to fix.




Which is why those conversations should happen during a time frame when it is stated and agreed to that sex is completely off the table. You agree that there will be no sex, no matter what, for a month...maybe two. But during that month you two will engage in regular emotional intimacy, nonsexual affection, and dialogue together about sex. You have to convince her that this isn't you attempting to change her mind or change her. This is you trying to create a safe environment so that you can understand her better, and she can understand you better.

If you're convinced that your wife is not using sex to control, punish or reward you. If you are convinced that it is her skewed understanding of human sexuality and the repression she grew up with, this is the only way out. Creating a safe environment in which to seek understanding and clarity. At the end, you may come to understand that it doesn't matter that your sex life will always be sparse. Or she may come to understand that sex isn't dirty and shameful. Or you may realize your sexless marriage is indeed hopeless.

But you'll never know for sure until you try.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> How do you think your wife would respond if you opened a dialogue with her about sex?


We have talked about it very openly for the last 2 years in marriage counseling with a great Sex Therapist. 



Anon Pink said:


> How does she define normal sex life?


PIV only once every 2 weeks when we are both in the mood. Since I'm always up for lovin', it's all about waiting for the mood to strike her. Which ends up being once every month or two. And flowers, favors or snuggling have the opposite effect of promoting being in the mood. She immediately sees it as an attempt to get sex. Her perception poisons everything I do. She acknowledges that her desire for sex is below normal, but she didn't think it was that big of a deal. I think she realizes only now how badly she has damaged our marriage. 



Anon Pink said:


> How does she come to that conclusion?


Watching her parents. They were not openly affectionate and her impression of their sex frequency was a handful of times a year, and they seemed happy. It's clear now to her that this was a bad example and they were not happy together. 



Anon Pink said:


> Who and what influenced her attitude toward sex and sexuality?


She's a bit of a feminist. That never bothered me because I am a big believer in equality myself. But, I believe she developed a perspective of being a strong female was critical to prevent being taken advantage of by boys. She read a lot of books that include rape and violence against women and I know she really took those in. Ultimately, it made our relationship a struggle over control. I tried to show her that I could be trusted for 14 years, but she never could trust me (IMO). 




Anon Pink said:


> Would she be interested in learning a bit more about the normal variations of sexual desire?


Honestly, if you even suggest that there is something wrong, she immediately gets super defensive and thinks I am just trying to get in her pants for the physical gratification. It plays right into her childhood narrative. I flew with her halfway across the country to talk to an expert about it and she got a prescription for Addyi. She felt very embarrassed to be talking about sex with strangers. The medicine was extremely expensive, but I still filled it for her. And... she refused to take it. That was one of my last straws. I felt like that demonstrated that she didn't understand me and didn't think she needed to get better. 



Anon Pink said:


> Frankly, I really think people like this should be challenged on their attitudes. Grow some intentionality in their life and not just follow the herd.


Agreed. 



Anon Pink said:


> Does she think her son should marry a woman who isn't into sex? Should her daughter grow up believing that sex is something that has to be judiciously doled out to keep a man in line?


In her mind, this is what women have to do. We have a son and daughter.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

sixty-eight said:


> I meant more that the mismatched drive couples that last, are the ones that find a happy medium. That both care enough about each other to accommodate at least some of the others wants and needs.


That makes sense. 



sixty-eight said:


> maybe i wasn't clear about that, sorry


I get what you're saying now.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> ...If you're convinced that your wife is not using sex to control, punish or reward you. If you are convinced that it is her skewed understanding of human sexuality and the repression she grew up with, this is the only way out. Creating a safe environment in which to seek understanding and clarity. At the end, you may come to understand that it doesn't matter that your sex life will always be sparse. Or she may come to understand that sex isn't dirty and shameful. Or you may realize your sexless marriage is indeed hopeless.
> 
> But you'll never know for sure until you try.


I think she controls sex because she thinks that's the wife's normal role and she has to do it to maintain her strong feminist image of herself. 

I honestly see no good solution. In the last few counseling sessions, we have come very close to ending our marriage. She is desperate for me to stay and insists she could never love anyone else and that she has changed. I am deeply resentful of how she has neglected me and have lost all romantic feelings and attraction for her. We're in a very bad place in our marriage. Reading about how much fun a loving marriage can be (here on TAM) does motivate me to want to divorce. 

I think if you give up on seeking happiness, you have stopped living.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

wantshelp said:


> I think she controls sex because she thinks that's the wife's normal role and she has to do it to maintain her strong feminist image of herself.



That's weird. That seems to me to be part of the old school woman's role that feminism allowed us to cast off!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

wantshelp said:


> We have talked about it very openly for the last 2 years in marriage counseling with a great Sex Therapist.


That's excellent. But I'm guessing the past two years of counseling haven't resulted in a better marriage?




> PIV only once every 2 weeks when we are both in the mood. Since I'm always up for lovin', it's all about waiting for the mood to strike her. Which ends up being once every month or two. And flowers, favors or snuggling have the opposite effect of promoting being in the mood. She immediately sees it as an attempt to get sex. Her perception poisons everything I do. She acknowledges that her desire for sex is below normal, but she didn't think it was that big of a deal. I think she realizes only now how badly she has damaged our marriage.



That's because sex became a battleground, so yes she will be suspicious of anything that she sees as a prelude to sex. You're right, her perception does poison your attempts. Just throwing this out there, is she wrong? Is she wrong to assume that the whole purpose of counseling and you doing things differently is for the ultimate goal of a better sex life?

Look I agree that she needs to rearrange her thinking about sex and I am on your side on you wanting a better sex life. But ultimately, that is your goal and she knows it. It's not like you're going to marriage counseling so that you can come to terms with a sub par sex life, right?

So be honest with her. Yes, I want more sex. Yes I want you to be more open with me about sex. Yes I want you to desire sex with me as often as I desire it with you. Yes I want you to understand that wanting sex often is not a mark of shame or perversion but of vitality and health.

It's good that's she is beginning to see how her attitudes have poisoned the marriage, as much as or more than your attempts to improve your sex life. But...your brand of poison brings bonding and love while her brand of poison brings distance and distrust.





> Watching her parents. They were not openly affectionate and her impression of their sex frequency was a handful of times a year, and they seemed happy. It's clear now to her that this was a bad example and they were not happy together.


That excellent that she's seeing things more clearly.




> She's a bit of a feminist. That never bothered me because I am a big believer in equality myself. But, I believe she developed a perspective of being a strong female was critical to prevent being taken advantage of by boys. She read a lot of books that include rape and violence against women and I know she really took those in. Ultimately, it made our relationship a struggle over control. I tried to show her that I could be trusted for 14 years, but she never could trust me (IMO).


I am a feminist. I am also a sexual submissive. Took me a long long time to be okay with being both. But the conflict of feminism wasn't my only hurdle.

Feminism combined with a lack of open affection often creates this ...anger for lack of a better word...that boys and men have such innate power to harm. The abandon of sexual arousal creates extreme vulnerability. So I don't think it's about trusting you or not. I think it's about not being vulnerable so that SHE doesn't notice her traitorous body feeling safe and secure in your arms. (I just wrote almost 5 long paragraphs comparing the women's liberation movement to modern feminism...but the gist is that she needs to appreciate that feminism doesn't require a loss of femininity and or always being in control)




> Honestly, if *you even suggest that there is something wrong, *she immediately gets super defensive and thinks I am just trying to get in her pants for the physical gratification. It plays right into her childhood narrative. I flew with her halfway across the country to talk to an expert about it and she got a prescription for Addyi. She felt very embarrassed to be talking about sex with strangers. The medicine was extremely expensive, but I still filled it for her. And... she refused to take it. That was one of my last straws. I felt like that demonstrated that she didn't understand me and *didn't think she needed to get better. *


First of all that drug has had very little actual success. Second, notice what I bolded. so she was right? You did think there was something wrong with her and she did need to get better? Even though I agree and answer yes you have unfortunately created a contest. There is a time and a place for a contest and maybe you reached already. But until you have verified that she is perfectly content with your misery there remains a chance to influence her attitudes about sex.




> Agreed.
> 
> In her mind, this is what women have to do. We have a son and daughter.


okay so she is raising her daughter to also use sex as a tool to control. What about her son? Knowing what she knows about how men are such horn dogs does she expect her son to marry a woman who also restricts sex arbitrarily as a means of control? Is she okay with her son also being miserable in his marriage? Or does she expect that her son will marry a woman and they will be happy love birds forever?

Women with sons need to be challenged on how they hope that son lives his life. If she hopes her son will learn to be happy with having sex twice a month...it's time to pack it in and get your kids away from a parent who will damage their capacity for a rich and loving marriage!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> That's weird. That seems to me to be part of the old school woman's role that feminism allowed us to cast off!


I came up at the tail end of women's lib movement as it merged with modern feminism. I definitely got the feminism message about sex being a tool for control.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> That's weird. That seems to me to be part of the old school woman's role that feminism allowed us to cast off!


Gosh you're right. It's hard to reconcile. Thinking about it more, one of her favorite caricatures is Rosie the Riveter. To her strong, in-control women, are feminists. To her that is not a contradiction. The origin all stems from her mother, who was the boss in the house. Her mom said things like you have to control the finances, the man should not be involved in decorating the house, and you have to stand up for yourself. The implication being that you cannot trust a man and your have to control them. 

Part of me thinks that my wife was brainwashed from a young age and I can turn her around. But no, it's probably too late for us. I want to be in a normal, happy relationship for the time I have left on the planet. I am a smart, not-overweight guy, with a successful, well paying career. My biggest flaw is that I am a pushover. I think it's time that I put my happiness first.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@wantshelp,

If you've reached that point, it's time move on. Now you know that having a good understanding of a partners attitudes about sex is as important as how well you get along.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

john117 said:


> There's a reason and in hardcore LD cases it's mostly control related, not desire.


Mine was a hard core case and it had nothing to do with control or being evil. It was his upbringing that was the main issue, he is not a bad person just a f.ucked up one.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> I came up at the tail end of women's lib movement as it merged with modern feminism. I definitely got the feminism message about sex being a tool for control.


There's also those two helpful memes of "all men are rapists" and "a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle".


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

wantshelp said:


> *I think she controls sex because she thinks that's the wife's normal role and she has to do it to maintain her strong feminist image of herself. *
> 
> .....................


Well then her image of Feminism is completely wrong. I was raised by a strong Feminist and now consider myself to be an Equalist, am also raising my kids this was.
Feminism is about equality not dominance or control. 

If she is using a label to control you then this is possible a problem related more to upbringing than desire. Are her parents normal, happy people?


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Anon Pink, WOW! Great questions!



Anon Pink said:


> That's excellent. But I'm guessing the past two years of counseling haven't resulted in a better marriage?


Sadly, the marriage is far worse. Certainly not the outcome I expected. When we started counseling, I blamed myself for her lack of desire. She was HD before getting married, so I must have done something to change her. But as things came out over the course of our counseling, I came to realize that she does not trust me and never has. She doesn't believe that my love for her leads me to a physical expression through sex (among other things). She doesn't trust that it comes from a place of love. To me it invalidated the marriage I thought we'd had. One of mutual trust. My attraction to her just evaporated right then. I suddenly didn't know who I was looking at and questioned everything I thought I understood about her. So, in counseling, as we started to talk openly for the first time, I realized, I didn't know her. She'd been hiding her true self. She never trusted me enough to let me in. I suddenly felt like I was talking to a stranger. 



Anon Pink said:


> That's because sex became a battleground, so yes she will be suspicious of anything that she sees as a prelude to sex. You're right, her perception does poison your attempts. Just throwing this out there, is she wrong? Is she wrong to assume that the whole purpose of counseling and you doing things differently is for the ultimate goal of a better sex life?


Yes and no. To me sex is not the goal; a loving, trusting connection is the goal. I wanted to share in all the happiness life has to offer and grow old together doing it. Sex is one of the few things that your partner can do for you that nobody else can (or should) that demonstrates their selflessness and commitment to you. To me it's not correct to say it's about sex. It's about real love. 



Anon Pink said:


> Look I agree that she needs to rearrange her thinking about sex and I am on your side on you wanting a better sex life. But ultimately, that is your goal and she knows it. It's not like you're going to marriage counseling so that you can come to terms with a sub par sex life, right?


True, sex is certainly my favorite way of expressing affection. And when I say sex, I am including everything, including the oral sex I give her. I love watching her have orgasms. I do them for myself as much as for her. 



Anon Pink said:


> So be honest with her. Yes, I want more sex. Yes I want you to be more open with me about sex. Yes I want you to desire sex with me as often as I desire it with you. Yes I want you to understand that wanting sex often is not a mark of shame or perversion but of vitality and health.


Completely Agree. I have said all of those things almost exactly as you have stated them. But, I wonder is it fair for me to even expect that her desire for sex could change. Before counseling, she was happy with everything. House, kids, family, and sex on her schedule. Everything was picture perfect for her, but I was miserable. Of course, she doesn't see the need for counseling and is ashamed to talk to a stranger about this. So now we go to counseling. I tell her that I am not OK with our life together and that I am contemplating divorce because of her years of rejecting me, neglecting me, and making us live in a affection-less/sexless marriage. So, how is that realization going to help her desire for me? My problem is that there was no desire for me when she was in her utopia we had before counseling. She had anything she could want and still there was no desire for me. I always had to initiate and was rejected 98% of the time. So now she suddenly says she has desire, but after my threat of divorce, you can imagine how hard it is for me to believe that she is feeling any genuine desire. 



Anon Pink said:


> I am a feminist. I am also a sexual submissive. Took me a long long time to be okay with being both. But the conflict of feminism wasn't my only hurdle. ...but the gist is that she needs to appreciate that feminism doesn't require a loss of femininity and or always being in control.


Interesting. True. 



Anon Pink said:


> First of all that drug has had very little actual success.


Believe me I understand how Addyi works VERY well. It wasn't about the drug, it was about her unwillingness to try. 



Anon Pink said:


> Second, notice what I bolded. so she was right? You did think there was something wrong with her and she did need to get better?


Of course there is something wrong. I'm just saying she gets very defensive when I blame her. And on top of that she is very self deprecating, to the point of depression and I try to be sensitive to that when I imply that she is doing something I believe is harming our relationship. 



Anon Pink said:


> okay so she is raising her daughter to also use sex as a tool to control. What about her son? Knowing what she knows about how men are such horn dogs does she expect her son to marry a woman who also restricts sex arbitrarily as a means of control? Is she okay with her son also being miserable in his marriage? Or does she expect that her son will marry a woman and they will be happy love birds forever?


I don't know what her expectations are...



Anon Pink said:


> Women with sons need to be challenged on how they hope that son lives his life. If she hopes her son will learn to be happy with having sex twice a month...it's time to pack it in and get your kids away from a parent who will damage their capacity for a rich and loving marriage!


Yeah, this REALLY bothers me. I feel like we are similar to her parents' loveless relationship and as the kids get older, I cannot let them think this is the way it is supposed to be. I sometimes think, if for nothing else, I have to divorce so that my kids will see what a happy marriage can be. I want them to see playfulness, happiness, and love. Our therapist says that I have "held the happy" in our relationship. Meaning I have stayed optimistic and positive for most of our marriage, bringing everyone else up, but I can't do that anymore. I've thought of telling the kids everything when they get older, but I picture them saying something like "We really wish you hadn't stayed just for us. We would have wanted you to be happy too."


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> Well then her image of Feminism is completely wrong. I was raised by a strong Feminist and now consider myself to be an Equalist, am also raising my kids this way.
> Feminism is about equality not dominance or control.


Love it! 



MrsHolland said:


> If she is using a label to control you then...


I don't think she uses the label, but she definitely self-identifies as a feminist. 



MrsHolland said:


> ..this is possibly a problem related more to upbringing than desire. Are her parents normal, happy people?


Her parents barely tolerate each other. They sleep in separate rooms and her mom incessantly picks on and criticizes her father. And that man is a saint. He quietly takes it all. There are no displays of affection between them, at least that I have seen in private family settings.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> It was his upbringing that was the main issue, he is not a bad person just a f.ucked up one.


 Can you elaborate on this? What happened? What did you do?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

sixty-eight said:


> I meant more that the mismatched drive couples that last, are the ones that find a happy medium. That both care enough about each other to accommodate at least some of the others wants and needs.


Completely agreed. Odds are as well, there is always some sort of mismatch with every couple. It could be a small mismatch or it could be much larger. If both people really care about each other they will figure out a way to work together to meet somewhere in the middle. Those who are unwilling to work on it, well, my guess they probably should just end the relationship and find someone who better fits their "compatibility" needs.

Oh, and to answer the OP's question, sex would be nowhere near as enjoyable to me if part of the appeal wasn't about pleasing my W.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

wantshelp said:


> Can you elaborate on this? What happened? What did you do?


I divorced him, that is the short version.

From what you describe above then I can see similarities between my ex and your wife. 

My IL's sounds similar to yours, a non affectionate couple that stayed married "till death do us part" literally. They had separate beds from well before I met them, in this case it was the husband that was passive aggressive and very nasty to the wife. She was weak as piss. 

This was the example my ILs gave to my ex and his sister (who never married or had a healthy relationship her whole adult life). My ex was completely in love with me and part of him really wanted the alternate view of life I showed him. All was great at the start and we had a lot of affection and sex. Then he fell back to his base line because people can only live a heightened way for so long. He could not talk about sex, his parents were repressed and so is he. Post divorce I realised that he also had a part of him that was bi curious but being so repressed I doubt he has ever done anything about it, oddly I would not care if he was because i don't believe in repressing who we are.

As I said earlier my ex is a very good person, just f'ed up by the cold, hard example his parents gave him about love, marriage and sex.

Sorry, waffling a bit. Have I answered your question? If not feel free to ask more.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> I divorced him, that is the short version.
> 
> From what you describe above then I can see similarities between my ex and your wife.
> 
> ...As I said earlier my ex is a very good person, just f'ed up by the cold, hard example his parents gave him about love, marriage and sex.


Wow. Was your ex content with the relationship? So, how did the divorce come about? What was your breaking point? Did you file? Was it hard to find the courage to go through with that? How does the story end? Have you found someone else?


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

wantshelp said:


> Wow. Was your ex content with the relationship? So, how did the divorce come about? What was your breaking point? Did you file? Was it hard to find the courage to go through with that? How does the story end? Have you found someone else?


My ex was content with a lot of parts of the relationship as was I, great parents, doing well financially, travel, great social life, the Golden Couple.

I initiated the D. almost 20 years married. I am a reasonably HD person but never cheated as my moral compass is very fixed. I tried for years to talk to him but of course this to him was a personal attack so we never got anywhere. 

My health deteriorated to a very low point not due to lack of sex but due to the harm that being rejected caused. We were living overseas the last 6 years of the marriage so I got a first row view of exactly who his parents were and the type of example they had ruined him with.

I was miserable but kept the family intact as long as possible. One day when we had only been back home for a short time I just woke up and knew it was time to get a life. I didn't go to bed thinking this it just hit me when I woke up.

It was the hardest thing I have ever done. The look on the kids faces will always break my heart. In the end I knew I had to set a better example for them though, the thought of them seeing a dysfunctional marriage as "normal" was enough to give me the courage to end the sham.

The story ends well, we co parent exceptionally well, we are amicable and remained a good support for each other. He was relieved that it ended as I believe in his own way he loved me but knew he could never give me the life I wanted/needed.

I spent a year drinking wine then started dating again, met my now partner and am extremely happy. We have been together 5 years, have a blended family with 5 teenagers.

I learnt that if people cannot talk about sex then it is a huge red flag. My ex could not talk about sex because he was repressed and not free. My current partner can openly talk about sex and has a real desire to see me happy.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> My ex was content with a lot of parts of the relationship as was I, great parents, doing well financially, travel, great social life, the Golden Couple...
> 
> I initiated the D. almost 20 years married. I am a reasonably HD person but never cheated as my moral compass is very fixed. I tried for years to talk to him but of course this to him was a personal attack so we never got anywhere.
> 
> My health deteriorated to a very low point not due to lack of sex but due to the harm that being rejected caused.


Wow, I see so many parallels. 



MrsHolland said:


> The story ends well, we co parent exceptionally well, we are amicable and remained a good support for each other.


I really want to have a good amicable relationship after divorce. That's why I want to be respectful to her and do it through arbitration. 



MrsHolland said:


> He was relieved that it ended as I believe in his own way he loved me but knew he could never give me the life I wanted/needed.


My wife is afraid she could never love anyone else... so I think she is terrified of divorce. 



MrsHolland said:


> I learnt that if people cannot talk about sex then it is a huge red flag. My ex could not talk about sex because he was repressed and not free.


Wow. My wife banned me from using a variety of words related to sex and always refused to even utter the word "sex". She referred to "sex" as "it", literally. As in... "Oh, you want to do 'it' again? But we just did 'it' 2 weeks ago and I'm reading a good book." Is that the red flag you are talking about? And after sex, if I tried to talk to her about how much I liked it or had fun, she would literally say don't speak. I got the sense that she didn't want to acknowledge being sexual. She said MANY times in our relationship that she doesn't want people to know she has sex at all. I have since pointed out the fact that we have two kids and she says hush, I don't want to think about it... 

Crap, that's the red flag you're talking about, isn't it?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@wantshelp,

Based on your thread discussing your injury, your issues run much deeper than LD/HD or 'selfish' wife. 



wantshelp said:


> Over a year ago, I had an accident that left me with numbness in my penis. Consequently, I cannot orgasm while masturbating and rarely orgasm during vaginal sex, but it has happened. Oral sex to completion has worked nearly every time to give me an orgasm, but my wife thinks it's gross. Am I being selfish by asking my wife for the only thing that works for me? ....... *Is it too much to ask for oral 4-5 times a week?* Last year I had 5 orgasms. I am really unhappy.


I don't doubt that your issues of sexual incompatibility go way back before the injury but now, compounded by your accident and resulting medical issues, you're dealing whole other level of FUBAR. Considering everything, the likelihood that your wife will give you oral 4-5 times per week is nil. 

If you feel that you will be happier alone than with your wife, I highly recommend you divorce and stop wasting money on MC.

ETA: In response to OP, No, I no longer take pleasure from pleasing my partner. That type of thinking got me into big trouble when my husband started having ED. My self esteem took a huge hit because I used it to validate me.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> @wantshelp,
> Based on your thread discussing your injury, your issues run much deeper than LD/HD or 'selfish' wife. I don't doubt that your issues of sexual incompatibility go way back before the injury but now, compounded by your accident and resulting medical issues, you're dealing whole other level of FUBAR. Considering everything, the likelihood that your wife will give you oral 4-5 times per week is nil.


Ok, to catch everyone up... I had a horrible accident that severed the pudendal nerve in my penis and now I can't feel orgasms anymore, but am otherwise FULLY functional (erection and ejaculation). And, in the short time my wife tried to help me figure out how to have fun with sex again, we found that blow jobs can work, but she is not interested in blowing me more than 5 times a year. So, yes, I started a thread a while back to explore the frequency of oral sex that people have. The responses I thought were very encouraging from that thread. 

Basically, I heard multiple women say that it's not unusual for a woman to not be able to orgasm from PIV and need something else, like oral sex to orgasm. So, if that is what I need to orgasm, it is as fair for me to ask for that from my partner as it is for a woman. And I heard many women say that they give oral to their partner every time. And I heard some claim to like giving oral sex. I even spoke to a female friend that said she knows women that like giving oral. 

And I did not call my wife 'selfish'. 

But, you're right, I think my wife would not blow me more than 5-10 times a year. And that's her choice. It is her choice to not love me in sickness and in health. It is her choice to neglect me. It is her choice to abandon me when I needed her emotional support. 

No, she's not selfish. I am just exploring whether she really loves me. I believe she is not as fully committed to mutually making each other happy. 



Lila said:


> If you feel that you will be happier alone than with your wife, I highly recommend you divorce and stop wasting money on MC.


Ok, this is way harsh. So you think if I divorced, I would be alone? Why? For a woman, I can still do anything. And there are some people that never orgasm, yet they don't have a problem finding partners. Or are you just saying I won't be any happier? I think that is exactly what I have been discussing here. That I need more of an emotional, connected love, than a sexual one. I get neither from my current wife. 

The truth is that I am CERTAIN I would be happier divorced. My hesitation comes from the idea of losing my best friend and hurting her. That keeps me from leaving. :crying:


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

wantshelp said:


> Ok, this is way harsh. So you think if I divorced, I would be alone? Why? For a woman, I can still do anything. And there are some people that never orgasm, yet they don't have a problem finding partners. Or are you just saying I won't be any happier? I think that is exactly what I have been discussing here. That I need more of an emotional, connected love, than a sexual one. I get neither from my current wife.
> 
> The truth is that I am CERTAIN I would be happier divorced. My hesitation comes from the idea of losing my best friend and hurting her. That keeps me from leaving. :crying:


No, what I meant was don't leave because you think the grass is greener elsewhere. Leave because you are happier being in your own company than in your wife's company. In other words, if you feel a sense a relief each time you leave your wife's company and/or start feeling anxiety, anger, unhappiness when you're around your wife, then it's time to go.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> No, what I meant was don't leave because you think the grass is greener elsewhere. Leave because you are happier being in your own company than in your wife's company. In other words, if you feel a sense a relief each time you leave your wife's company and/or start feeling anxiety, anger, unhappiness when you're around your wife, then it's time to go.


Ah. Good advice. And tough to answer. I am definitely happier living with her as roommates, the way it is now; compared to being alone. I don't want to be alone. But, I don't think I should continue in this marriage for fear of never finding love again.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

That sounds depressingly familiar. This though among a minority of women that sex is something men "take" from women. Something that strong women can resist. 

Everything is viewed in the light of the husband's attempts to get more sex. Every romantic action. Every request for discussion or change. 

Eventually having more sex is seen as being weak and giving up. Of losing self worth. 

Attempts to show that many couples jointly enjoy sex are viewed as male dominated propaganda. 






wantshelp said:


> I think she controls sex because she thinks that's the wife's normal role and she has to do it to maintain her strong feminist image of herself.
> 
> I honestly see no good solution. In the last few counseling sessions, we have come very close to ending our marriage. She is desperate for me to stay and insists she could never love anyone else and that she has changed. I am deeply resentful of how she has neglected me and have lost all romantic feelings and attraction for her. We're in a very bad place in our marriage. Reading about how much fun a loving marriage can be (here on TAM) does motivate me to want to divorce.
> 
> I think if you give up on seeking happiness, you have stopped living.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@wantshelp

Pain, unfortunately, is sometimes the only way we accept the need for growth.

You say now that the threat of divorce is out there she suddenly has desire for you. It's not about desire and never has been, for your wife. It's her attitude, that she's been holding onto with a death grip, that reflects her desire or lack thereof. She desires you every bit as much now as she always has, only now she is beginning to let go of the attitude about sex. 

You are reading too much into her, or maybe trying to clean up and romanticize your sexuality. Sex is sex. Sometimes it's an expression of love too, but it's still sex. Just sex. There is nothing wrong with sex. It doesn't have to be qualified with romance and or love. Sex all by itself is perfect.

It's easy for women like your wife to put a clamp on their sex drive and kill their own desire. It's not as easy for men but as @MrsHolland states, men do it too. MrsHollands ex didn't lack desire for her, he lacked the ability to express it, to enjoy it, to celebrate it, to show it. 

As a formerly fvcked up Repressed Denier I know how this works, how easy it is to deny. And how damn hard it is to stop denying and become healthy. There were other things going too but it all got lumped into sexual shame and anger at my H...although he deserved 70% of the anger I threw at him. 

So, do not be suspicious of your wife's new found desire because it's not new it's always been there, she's just kept it in a cage. Accept it, embrace it, praise her for her bravery in learning a new attitude and healthier way of experiencing her sexuality. Maybe she will keep blooming, maybe like MrsHolland's husband she will soon revert back to the uptight repressed prude. But keep in mind, it takes time to fully embrace a new attitude.
@MrsHolland, I just love your story of happiness!


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

wantshelp said:


> The selfish label is very tempting for the LD, but my wife is incredibly generous and giving in other matters. I have come to believe that it is less about selfishness and more about trust, commitment, and love. I believe my wife does not trust that my intentions and motives come from a place of love and affection. She looks at me as if I am some animal with an insatiable physical desire that has nothing to do with love. She feels like an object to be used by me. She has literally said that. After talking about it more in counseling, it has just blown up our marriage into pieces because the more she talked the more I realized that she does not trust me. And it was very painful to see my attempts to be affectionate characterized like that.


this is such a sensitive and personal topic that when people are not on the same page it is taken personally.

if you are the HD partner, you feel unwanted, unloved and unattractive. it feels as though your LD spouse is telling you that you are unworthy of affection. it feels intentional.

if you are the LD partner, I would imagine you feel as though you are an object, not a person (just as you described your wife feeling). I would imagine it would feel as though your HD spouse is intentionally making you feel this way.

I think the reality is that each spouse is simply responding to unintentional emotions. Neither is trying to "do this" to the other. Each feels disrespected and diminished by the interaction.

you have to overcome the knee jerk reaction to blame your partner for having an emotion that he/she did not choose to have.

if you are HD, you have to accept that your spouse may not want you, but that this is internal to her and she is not doing this to hurt you.

if you are LD, you have to accept that your spouse actually wants YOU, not just your body and that he is not trying to disrespect you, only to connect with you. 

the gulf may very well be insurmountable, but you don't have to blame each other for that.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> How do you think your wife would respond if you opened a dialogue with her about sex? How does she define normal sex life? How does she come to that conclusion? Who and what influenced her attitude toward sex and sexuality? Would she be interested in learning a bit more about the normal variations of sexual desire?
> 
> Frankly, I really think people like this should be challenged on their attitudes. Grow some intentionality in their life and not just follow the herd.
> 
> Does she think her son should marry a woman who isn't into sex? Should her daughter grow up believing that sex is something that has to be judiciously doled out to keep a man in line?


some people don't want to be challenged.

they simply want to be accepted "as is."

a challenge is not going to be accepted as a jumping off point for introspection. it will simply be received as an attack and dismissed.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sixty-eight said:


> I meant more that the mismatched drive couples that last, are the ones that find a happy medium. That both care enough about each other to accommodate at least some of the others wants and needs.
> 
> people like my ex, who get off on the power trip and make you beg and then still stay no. That sh!t can only end in misery. divorce is the best case scenario.
> 
> ...


that is f-d up that someone would actually take pleasure in rejecting his wife

maybe the only good thing about this is that, when you realize that this is the type of person you are dealing with, you would probably lose any interest in being with him anyway


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I know you have no plans to leave your marriage and I think that's just a waste of your youth and vitality. Your wife may be smoking hot but what exactly does that mean to you? How does her hotness make you feel loved and wanted and appreciated?
> 
> Saw the same stuff with my brother and his BSC ex. He had one year of health with his new GF before he was diagnosed with ALS. Don't waste your time in a marriage that isn't working.


I appreciate your perspective.

if you care to give more details on your brother's history, I'd be interested.

I'd obviously like to feel loved and appreciated (who wouldn't?). 

I'd like my wife to feel that way too. 

We probably are too far apart in what we need from one another and simply can't make each other feel that way anymore. 

I try not to blame her for this anymore and mostly succeed now.

I'd like to take better care of myself but I don't want to hurt the people I care about.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> some people don't want to be challenged.
> 
> they simply want to be accepted "as is."
> 
> a challenge is not going to be accepted as a jumping off point for introspection. it will simply be received as an attack and dismissed.


I sure as **** would not want to be married to a person like that. There is no room for growth or improvement in ANYTHING if that is the case. It borders on a character flaw of lazy entitlement.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> That's because sex became a battleground, so yes she will be suspicious of anything that she sees as a prelude to sex. You're right, her perception does poison your attempts. Just throwing this out there, is she wrong? Is she wrong to assume that the whole purpose of counseling and you doing things differently is for the ultimate goal of a better sex life?!


I know this is not directed at me, but I think this is a great point and it took me a long time to accept that this perspective is reality for the LD person in the relationship.

their perception is that everything you do is with the goal of sex in mind, so you need to cut that out completely.

this is especially hard when you are not getting laid with any frequency because you are extremely thirsty at all times.

you just basically have to accept that your relationship is non-sexual and that any sex that happens is a straight up bonus.

in other words, totally de-couple the expectation for sex from everything you do. give up on sex with your wife.



Anon Pink said:


> be honest with her. Yes, I want more sex. Yes I want you to be more open with me about sex. Yes I want you to desire sex with me as often as I desire it with you. Yes I want you to understand that wanting sex often is not a mark of shame or perversion but of vitality and health.


I just said I want you to want it, but if you don't want it with me, that's OK. I don't want you to do anything you don't want to do and we'll both be fine if it turns out you just don't want it.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I sure as **** would not want to be married to a person like that. There is no room for growth or improvement in ANYTHING if that is the case. It borders on a character flaw of lazy entitlement.


nobody does, but sometimes you find yourself in this situation anyway.

denying the reality of the person with whom you're dealing will only cause you frustration.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

wantshelp said:


> Ah. Good advice. And tough to answer. I am definitely happier living with her as roommates, the way it is now; compared to being alone. I don't want to be alone. But, I don't think I should continue in this marriage for fear of never finding love again.


you won't be alone long. there are billions of people in the world. you just have tunnel vision because you have been closed off from other women for so long.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Pain, unfortunately, is sometimes the only way we accept the need for growth.


wanted to highlight this because this is a huge point.

you can look at your hardship simply as a hardship and go nowhere, or you can look at it as an opportunity.

it sounds clichéd but it is the truth.



Anon Pink said:


> although he deserved 70% of the anger I threw at him. .


I know this is a joke, but I think you've got another key point buried here.

you're admitting (at least partially) that your anger was not productive

anger in these situations feels so justified, it is so easy to fall into a feedback loop just feeding your anger with every perceived slight.

but the anger is 100% internal. you do not need it. it does not help anything.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> nobody does, but sometimes you find yourself in this situation anyway.
> 
> denying the reality of the person with whom you're dealing will only cause you frustration.


Inasmuch as some people don't *want* to be challenged, that does not mean the other guy has to accept that. I know that you have chosen to accept it because you deem it best for your family. But as with physics, every action has a reaction. You don't always get to know what the reaction will be. But "challenging" someone is necessary for forward progress. Accepting lack of forward progress, whether it be with sex life, differing parenting styles/goals, home maintenance, would be completely untenable to me. It means complete loss of self and need to acquiesce entirely to someone else. I would never let my children see me do that.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Inasmuch as some people don't *want* to be challenged, that does not mean the other guy has to accept that. I know that you have chosen to accept it because you deem it best for your family. But as with physics, every action has a reaction. You don't always get to know what the reaction will be. But "challenging" someone is necessary for forward progress. Accepting lack of forward progress, whether it be with sex life, differing parenting styles/goals, home maintenance, would be completely untenable to me. It means complete loss of self and need to acquiesce entirely to someone else. I would never let my children see me do that.


I get what you're saying, I don't think it's so black and white.

if you've had an interaction enough times, you know what the result will be. there's no point in fighting about the same thing over and over.

just because you admit this to yourself doesn't mean you have "lost" yourself.

you just know that it is a battle that can't be won.

your self is still there. nobody can take that from you.

regarding the kids, most people seem to operate from the standpoint that you're setting some model for your kids' future marriage

well, in my case it is overwhelmingly likely that my kids will never have relationships with women. I've got much more basic concerns than this.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I get what you're saying, I don't think it's so black and white.
> 
> if you've had an interaction enough times, you know what the result will be. there's no point in fighting about the same thing over and over.


Clearly there is no point in repeating something that does not work. Thankfully many people are smart enough to do something ELSE!



> just because you admit this to yourself doesn't mean you have "lost" yourself.
> 
> you just know that it is a battle that can't be won.
> 
> your self is still there. nobody can take that from you.


You just don't get to use it.



> regarding the kids, most people seem to operate from the standpoint that you're setting some model for your kids' future marriage
> 
> well, in my case it is overwhelmingly likely that my kids will never have relationships with women. I've got much more basic concerns than this.


I don't recall the degree of their special needs. If that means that they will never be fully functional adults, then, man, I am sorry. But otherwise, the model that a parent gives is more than just relationship-wise.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MrsHolland said:


> Mine was a hard core case and it had nothing to do with control or being evil. It was his upbringing that was the main issue, he is not a bad person just a f.ucked up one.


Allow me to disagree. If everyone with the same upbringing is similarly fvcked and choose to be blind as to what a real marrriage involves, I agree. I kinda doubt it...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't recall the degree of their special needs. If that means that they will never be fully functional adults, then, man, I am sorry. But otherwise, the model that a parent gives is more than just relationship-wise.


one of them will never be able to support himself. the other one is borderline.

our hope is that the borderline one will develop enough to take care of himself and, ideally, his brother when we are gone.

it is by no means a sure thing that he will get there.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> one of them will never be able to support himself. the other one is borderline.
> 
> our hope is that the borderline one will develop enough to take care of himself and, ideally, his brother when we are gone.
> 
> it is by no means a sure thing that he will get there.


Sucky. Sorry for you. I suppose it is no consolation that you don't have to worry about being a marital role model. That is like gravy.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Sucky. Sorry for you. I suppose it is no consolation that you don't have to worry about being a marital role model. That is like gravy.


where it comes around into the "role model" area is that my children will in all likelihood have a life of extreme frustration

they are not cognitively lacking, but they are lacking in ability to express through language, sensory processing and regulating emotions.

so they will always be aware of what they are missing in life but will probably not have much ability to change things.

my opportunity here is to deal with a situation that causes me great frustration. it's not nearly the level of frustration they will experience in their lives, but it's still a window into their reality.

I can show them how I can be a relatively happy person despite not being able to change things that I wish were different about my life.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I know this is not directed at me, but I think this is a great point and it took me a long time to accept that this perspective is reality for the LD person in the relationship.
> 
> their perception is that everything you do is with the goal of sex in mind, so you need to cut that out completely.
> 
> ...


To expressly agree that there will be no sex for a set period of time is a wise course, but to agree that sex will no longer ever be an expectation in this marriage is, IMO, cutting off your leg because you've broken your ankle.

Sex is an expectation of marriage. Always has been always will be. Now that we don't have to prohibit sex for birth control, or for other health reasons, there is no foundation to expect any partner to agree that sex is no longer part of our marriage.





> I just said I want you to want it, but if you don't want it with me, that's OK. I don't want you to do anything you don't want to do and we'll both be fine if it turns out you just don't want it.



This is asking too much. This is just like those silly women who complain that they want their husbands to WANT to do the dishes, or the laundry. That's crap because no one wants to do those chores. But sex is different. A woman can start a sexual encounter without being aroused at all and end up having great sex. 

Typically, if a *woman doesn't start sex partially aroused, she isn't interested.* Expecting her to WANT to have sex would be like me insisting my husband showed me his erection before I agreed to have sex, as proof that he has a desire.




Anon1111 said:


> wanted to highlight this because this is a huge point.
> 
> you can look at your hardship simply as a hardship and go nowhere, or you can look at it as an opportunity.
> 
> it sounds clichéd but it is the truth.


Yes, pain prompts change. At some point the senselessness of hitting your head on the same beam causes a change in posture when nearing that beam.





> I know this is a joke, but I think you've got another key point buried here.
> 
> you're admitting (at least partially) that your anger was not productive
> 
> ...


Anger has its purpose. Anger stirs up energy. It is that energy we can tap into in order to save ourselves. By fighting back, by looking back, or by looking forward. The energy anger prompts can be positive.





NobodySpecial said:


> Inasmuch as some people don't *want* to be challenged, that does not mean the other guy has to accept that. I know that you have chosen to accept it because you deem it best for your family. But as with physics, every action has a reaction. You don't always get to know what the reaction will be. But "challenging" someone is necessary for forward progress. Accepting lack of forward progress, whether it be with sex life, differing parenting styles/goals, home maintenance, would be completely untenable to me. It means complete loss of self and need to acquiesce entirely to someone else. I would never let my children see me do that.



I completely agree with this!




john117 said:


> Allow me to disagree. If everyone with the same upbringing is similarly fvcked and choose to be blind as to what a real marrriage involves, I agree. I kinda doubt it...


Technically you're right. The evil you allude to, in reference to @MrsHolland's ex, is his refusal to act more intentionally. The evil of sticking his head in the sand because change makes me feel bad about myself.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> This is asking too much. This is just like those silly women who complain that they want their husbands to WANT to do the dishes, or the laundry. That's crap because no one wants to do those chores. But sex is different. A woman can start a sexual encounter without being aroused at all and end up having great sex.
> 
> Typically, if a *woman doesn't start sex partially aroused, she isn't interested.* Expecting her to WANT to have sex would be like me insisting my husband showed me his erection before I agreed to have sex, as proof that he has a desire.


I don't expect her to want it-- that's the point.

I'm not saying, "You must want it!"

I'm saying, it would be cool if you did, but if you don't I'm not going to hate you. I will understand.

I'm also saying I'm done trying to draw it out of you. If it's not there enough to be something you can actually demonstrate, we can just be friends.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I don't expect her to want it-- that's the point.
> 
> I'm not saying, "You must want it!"
> 
> ...


You should make that clear to people when you give marital advice about sex. That you have chosen, due to other factors, to give up. If you did not have the kid situation you did, and chose to stay married to your "friend" we would all, rightly, be telling you you were nuts.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Sadly I completely understand this attitude. 

I'd really like for my wife to want sex, but I know of no way get her to do so.

I'd really like for my wife to have sex even if she isn't initially in the mood because she becomes aroused and enjoys it. I've asked and she is unwilling to do this. 

I'd prefer if my wife were willing to please me in bed even if she isn't in the mood, but to her (as for many others) sexual activity of any sort is really awful if she doesn't feel like it. Its not something she can do. 

Its not her fault, it is how she has always been. There was no deception, no bait / switch, I was just unwilling to recognize the very obvious evidence. 



So, I've stopped asking, worrying etc. 

We are a good couple. We share chores, enjoy spending time together, each contribute to our joint success. We love and trust each other, we each know that they other has our backs. 

There is no passion, no romance, other than the formalities of giving her flowers and having fancy dinner dates. 

I've carefully considered leaving and finding someone with whom I could have a passionate relationship. When I consider everything, I come to the same conclusion that many others come to: the disadvantage of leaving outweigh the advantages. 


In my an Anon1111s case, the best bet is to think of your wife as your sister. Someone for whom there is a certain level of love and affection, but of a non-sexual variety. 






Anon1111 said:


> I don't expect her to want it-- that's the point.
> 
> I'm not saying, "You must want it!"
> 
> ...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I appreciate your perspective.
> 
> if you care to give more details on your brother's history, I'd be interested.
> 
> ...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> You should make that clear to people when you give marital advice about sex. That you have chosen, due to other factors, to give up. If you did not have the kid situation you did, and chose to stay married to your "friend" we would all, rightly, be telling you you were nuts.


I think the best bet for people who are in sexless marriages is to leave. I think I'm pretty consistent about saying this.

I only offer the alternative strategy to people who are saying they want to stay.

everyone here has their own baggage and I don't think anyone should have to qualify every post by getting into that


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

uhtred said:


> In my an Anon1111s case, the best bet is to think of your wife as your sister. Someone for whom there is a certain level of love and affection, but of a non-sexual variety.


I was with you up to the sister part, but that just grosses me out!

for me, it's more like co-workers who used to f---.

we've got an important job to do and we can't let our status of f---ing or not interfere with the job.

We can get along, do our job and put that other thing to the side if it creates too much drama.

if a better opportunity comes along, and we can still each meet our "job" responsibilities, we don't owe each other anything and won't blame each other if that opportunity is seized.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

john117 said:


> Allow me to disagree. If everyone with the same upbringing is similarly fvcked and choose to be blind as to what a real marrriage involves, I agree. I kinda doubt it...


As you have never met him how can you disagree with my description of him? 
He is neither evil or controlling, he was raised by parents that had a loveless marriage which impacted his ability to be free.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MrsHolland said:


> As you have never met him how can you disagree with my description of him?
> He is neither evil or controlling, he was raised by parents that had a loveless marriage which impacted his ability to be free.


Basic statistics.

If everyone coming out of such families in loveless marriages ends up being impacted in the same way and is non repairable, then with a fairly good confidence we can say FOO is the issue.

Yet many people, most people even, overcome this. 

Plus many people are willing to work thru it.

So, it's not FOO in itself that is the issue, but the individuals unwillingness to do anything about it.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Of course I enjoy getting her off. It's not uncommon for my wife to say she just isn't in the mood to O this time, but lets concentrate on you. Yes, I'll still enjoy it but not NEARLY as much as when my wife has a huge, earth shattering O. I really love to see her O. But, I was that way with girls/women I dated before her too. A woman in the throes of passion is a beautiful thing.

The rare instances when I watch porn, that's all I'm really interested in seeing.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Sadly I completely understand this attitude.
> 
> I'd really like for my wife to want sex, but I know of no way get her to do so.
> 
> Its not her fault, it is how she has always been. There was no deception, no bait / switch, I was just unwilling to recognize the very obvious evidence.


My situation is similar, but differs in one way. My wife and I had almost daily sex before marriage and it all stopped after being married. To me it was a bait/switch and that eventually eroded my trust in her. 

However, you are blaming yourself for not seeing evidence that she didn't want sex? I think you should not blame yourself. There is a nugget of culpability for you. And, it is totally your fault if when you proposed marriage, she said yes, but no sex. In that case only, it is your fault. But, the hallmark distinction of marriage is sex. It is not even considered consummated until there is sex. A marriage without sex is not a marriage, but rather a legal partnership. But, here's the deal. If she does not want to have sex with you, you should tell her that you will have sex outside the marriage. If she wants to have sex you are there for her, but if she rejects you, go have sex with someone else. So an open marriage for you and not for her. You get what you want and she gets what she wants. Although not really. Even in this situation it still sucks for you. And it is morally dubious. The moral choice is to get divorced, but I see that you are stuck for a variety of reasons. Also, I would argue that she does not truly love you. I think she likes you a lot, but if she refuses to have sex with you, having done nothing to provoke that response (no that that is ok), then that is not love and your are not married. 

You should take your ring off and tell her that her inability to commit and participate in the marriage will be reciprocated by you.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

john117 said:


> Basic statistics.
> 
> If everyone coming out of such families in loveless marriages ends up being impacted in the same way and is non repairable, then with a fairly good confidence we can say FOO is the issue.
> 
> ...


You are absolutely right! My wife is sexually repressed and rejects me nearly every time. Her parents were a terrible model for her, showing no affection. However, her sister was brought up in the same household and has no such issues. And here's the bottom line for me. Once you get to be an adult, it is time to reflect inward and reevaluate everything you were told and see it through the eyes of an adult. If you think only bad girls do X, or that's icky, or gross, or can't talk about sex, you are thinking like a child. As you mature, you have to go back through what people told you as a child and throw out the crap. It's hard for me to have sympathy for people that cling to their hang-ups, because to me, it's literally immature. My wife is one. 

Sorry if this comes across as harsh. I am a bit irritated by life.

And what does FOO stand for?


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> He is neither evil or controlling, he was raised by parents that had a loveless marriage which impacted his ability to be free.


Wow, your words echo my thoughts of my life almost exactly. And your story inspires me to finally insist on a divorce in our counseling session today. I hope I can do it.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm really not worried about blame. 

We got married when we were both young and inexperienced in dating ( this was a little before dinosaurs became extinct). 

We had very different expectations and neither of us had enough experience / knowledge to realize that our ideas of sex life in marriage were very different.

I'm a very patient person, and I gave her lots of time to get comfortable with me - and it was only very much later that I recognized that there had never been any significant sexual interest in me or anyone else. 

I could get her to agree to have sex with me by threatening to leave, but I have no interest in sex with an unwilling partner. 

She is happy. I am happy about almost everything in my life except our sex life. That is more than many people have. 




wantshelp said:


> My situation is similar, but differs in one way. My wife and I had almost daily sex before marriage and it all stopped after being married. To me it was a bait/switch and that eventually eroded my trust in her.
> 
> However, you are blaming yourself for not seeing evidence that she didn't want sex? I think you should not blame yourself. There is a nugget of culpability for you. And, it is totally your fault if when you proposed marriage, she said yes, but no sex. In that case only, it is your fault. But, the hallmark distinction of marriage is sex. It is not even considered consummated until there is sex. A marriage without sex is not a marriage, but rather a legal partnership. But, here's the deal. If she does not want to have sex with you, you should tell her that you will have sex outside the marriage. If she wants to have sex you are there for her, but if she rejects you, go have sex with someone else. So an open marriage for you and not for her. You get what you want and she gets what she wants. Although not really. Even in this situation it still sucks for you. And it is morally dubious. The moral choice is to get divorced, but I see that you are stuck for a variety of reasons. Also, I would argue that she does not truly love you. I think she likes you a lot, but if she refuses to have sex with you, having done nothing to provoke that response (no that that is ok), then that is not love and your are not married.
> 
> You should take your ring off and tell her that her inability to commit and participate in the marriage will be reciprocated by you.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

john117 said:


> Basic statistics.
> 
> If everyone coming out of such families in loveless marriages ends up being impacted in the same way and is non repairable, then with a fairly good confidence we can say FOO is the issue.
> 
> ...


There are no basic stats on this and I do not buy into your theory that LD people are evil and controlling. IMHO this theory is more about you passing all the blame to your wife.

Maybe when you finally get the guts to end it, spend some time healing and learning then you will see that you also have to shoulder blame.

Point blank, my ex is neither evil or controlling. He may be weak yes but then again I was too strong, bad combo especially with the genders being HD female, LD male, was doomed from early on.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

wantshelp said:


> Wow, your words echo my thoughts of my life almost exactly. And your story inspires me to finally insist on a divorce in our counseling session today. I hope I can do it.


I'm not advocating divorce, think long and hard on this as it is easier said than done. In my case it was best all round but we have worked very hard to have an amicable divorce and minimise the impact on our kids.

I wish you well.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> I'm not advocating divorce


I know you're not. It just helps to see the possibility of happiness if you don't give up seeking. 



MrsHolland said:


> ...think long and hard on this as it is easier said than done... I wish you well.


I can appreciate that, but my biggest regret is not doing this sooner, particularly before we had kids. Honestly, if I had threatened divorce 2 years into our marriage when we first went to counseling, we might have been able to fix things. I blame myself for being a pushover and not expressing my expectations in marriage.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

wantshelp said:


> But, here's the deal. If she does not want to have sex with you, you should tell her that you will have sex outside the marriage. If she wants to have sex you are there for her, but if she rejects you, go have sex with someone else. So an open marriage for you and not for her. You get what you want and she gets what she wants. Although not really. Even in this situation it still sucks for you. And it is morally dubious. The moral choice is to get divorced, but I see that you are stuck for a variety of reasons. Also, I would argue that she does not truly love you. I think she likes you a lot, but if she refuses to have sex with you, having done nothing to provoke that response (no that that is ok), then that is not love and your are not married.
> 
> You should take your ring off and tell her that her inability to commit and participate in the marriage will be reciprocated by you.


people often say this, but it doesn't really work. 

first, if you have kids, it is pretty f-d up to be openly cheating on their mother.

second, once you open that door, there is nothing to stop her from doing it too and it will be way, way easier for her.

third, the type of women who would want to get involved in this type of drama would not be worth the squeeze.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

wantshelp said:


> You are absolutely right! My wife is sexually repressed and rejects me nearly every time. Her parents were a terrible model for her, showing no affection. However, her sister was brought up in the same household and has no such issues. And here's the bottom line for me. Once you get to be an adult, it is time to reflect inward and reevaluate everything you were told and see it through the eyes of an adult. If you think only bad girls do X, or that's icky, or gross, or can't talk about sex, you are thinking like a child. As you mature, you have to go back through what people told you as a child and throw out the crap. It's hard for me to have sympathy for people that cling to their hang-ups, because to me, it's literally immature. My wife is one.
> 
> Sorry if this comes across as harsh. I am a bit irritated by life.
> 
> And what does FOO stand for?


I generally agree, but the other side of this is that on a lot of the really big stuff, people don't even realize they are playing out the sh-t that they learned as children.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

wantshelp said:


> I can appreciate that, but my biggest regret is not doing this sooner, particularly before we had kids. Honestly, if I had threatened divorce 2 years into our marriage when we first went to counseling, we might have been able to fix things. I blame myself for being a pushover and not expressing my expectations in marriage.


just look forward.

is it salvageable? yes or no?

if not, move on. if yes, work on it.

don't cry over spilt milk.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

wantshelp said:


> I know you're not. It just helps to see the possibility of happiness if you don't give up seeking.
> 
> I can appreciate that, *but my biggest regret is not doing this sooner, particularly before we had kids.* Honestly, if I had threatened divorce 2 years into our marriage when we first went to counseling, we might have been able to fix things. I blame myself for being a pushover and not expressing my expectations in marriage.


I felt the same for a while and a tiny part of me still does. Problem with us was that my first child was born before we had planned or even talked about having kids so life changed gear. I honestly believe that we cannot always control the path we are on and many of lifes lessons are learnt in hindsight. The people that blame others and cannot learn, take responsibility for their own actions are the ones that end up bitter and jaded after divorce, don't be one of them.
I was much more aware of interpersonal relationships, red flags and what I would and would not put up with when I headed back out into the dating world post divorce. It paid off and that is why I am happy now, MrH and I have many challenges but that does not scare me because we are a great match in all areas of life.

I understand you feel regret now but for me that feeling has all but disappeared. I took the life lessons, took responsibility and got on with it all. My children are amazing people and I have my ex to thank for his part, they make it all worth it.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

uhtred said:


> For those of you in generally good relationships, with reasonably balanced sex lives, do you actively enjoy doing sexual things for your partner, or do you just do it to be nice because they do things for you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I enjoy everything about sex, both on the receiving and giving end of it as does my wife. The only difference between my wife and I, I'm a bit more adventurous. But, that does not take away our enjoying a healthy sex life, even at our advanced age. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

wantshelp said:


> ...
> And what does FOO stand for?


 Family Of Origin


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MrsHolland said:


> There are no basic stats on this and I do not buy into your theory that LD people are evil and controlling. IMHO this theory is more about you passing all the blame to your wife.
> 
> Maybe when you finally get the guts to end it, spend some time healing and learning then you will see that you also have to shoulder blame.
> 
> Point blank, my ex is neither evil or controlling. He may be weak yes but then again I was too strong, bad combo especially with the genders being HD female, LD male, was doomed from early on.


Not all of them are evil. Some are stupid. Some are both.

It's not about passing blame. I couldn't give a bleep about blame. It's about what you're willing to do - or not do - to help your marriage. 

And it's not really all about sex. Not by a mile. The sex is the icing on the cake. Unwillingness or inability to work on a simple basic issue tells us they're likely not able or willing to do it for other issues. Therefore, bye bye.

I have to politely smile at your assumption of not controlling tho.....


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