# Is there a WiFi traffic logger?



## verify (Jun 30, 2013)

I am looking for some software or hardware that will log the traffic (whatsapp messages etc.) through my wifi router.
Is there such a thing?

History:
Sorry. This bit is boring & you can skip it if you like.
A few years ago I suspected that my wife was lying to me (gut feeling) after going out with "the girls from work".
I set my MP3 player to 'record' & left it, hidden, by the phone.
It picked up 1 side of a phone call to her friend, telling her that she'd kissed a guy from work.
It turned out that she fancied him, but he never knew & nothing happened & he has since left.

This left me suspicious & I put keyboard logging software on our home PC. which I check occasionally.

A few months ago, I checked & came across Facebook PM messages from my wife to another guy at work.
They were talking dirty (what they would like to do to each other, where & when they could do it etc.).
It only lasted a few days, and by the time I'd seen the messages, they'd switched to using Whatsapp so that they could send rude pictures.
I confronted her the next day, but she said that - it had just been banter that had got out of hand & that she'd already put a stop to it.

We have since been to marriage guidance counselling & we're making a go of it.
(I was a rotten husband: not paying her any attention etc. & when someone else _did_; she had succumb, but she stopped it short of a physical affair.)

Like many people in similar situations, I want to be sure that everything is fine now (no more messages etc.).
I tried putting logging software on her mobile, but she spotted it & went ballistic.
I need to be more discreet, hence the need for WiFi traffic logging.

Many thanks,
Verify


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## pollywog (May 30, 2013)

I am looking for the same thing. I found something called sniff pass, but it would not sniff our network.


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## Rottdad42 (Nov 26, 2012)

V, there are zero excuses to talk dirty to someone, regardless what kind of a husband you are. If you truly are in love and you are faithful, then fixing the marriage from that aspect can be done. When you are sexting, sending nude pictures and using apps to hide what you are doing, that is intent. You did the right thing. The reason she went "ballistic" is because you won't stand by and treated that way. Good for you, you have a spine. I must be honest with, she will try again, if she can get away with it, If your wife wants to make things work and truly loves you, she will make that effort. There are a lot of people here, including myself who's SO have gone further. BTW, kissing somebody else "is" cheating, period. I quote the vows. "Forsake all others" means no touchy, kissy feely anyone for any reason. IMHO, I doubt it was just a kiss, that's cheater talk for we did the deed. For peace of mind do yourself a favor and go MI-6. Be calm, casual and so on, it will be hard, but you have to get to the bottom of this. If she works, use a VAR in the car, in the house, continue keylogger. Weightlifter is the man when it comes to the VAR. In addition the other folks on here have a lot more experience with said equipment. But we all have one thing in common, we have been betrayed. The trust, the respect and everything that comes with a marriage has been destroyed. What are you prepared to do now. Step up, or be stepped on and treated like a fool. Keep coming back here, we are here to help you believe that. Good luck.


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

Maybe you should try a new tactic, she has gone underground with the dirty deeds, it is easy for such activities to become addictive, and even easier to accidentally cross boundaries without realizing especially if it happens in such a short time frame, couple of three days for example!! Once hooked she needs the fix of naughtiness but without the physical for now, that often comes later as the addiction is fed and it grows to a physical need to hook up and feel it.

You need to go through all the different types of phone spyware and find one that is basically hidden completely or one you can rip off the net what is going on, and once you have found your product then buy her a new phone as a gift with it ready installed so she will not know it is on there, you need to stop all actions other than this as to snooping that might push her even further under ground, by doing this and letting the dust blow over she will come to surface quicker than you realize, have a nice meal to show her that you love her and then give her the gift to show her that she means so much to you and how committed to working things out you are and then sit back cool as a cucumber and watch what she gets up to, log, record do as much as you need to get the best settlement in your divorce.

She will do it again, it is only a matter of time, you just need to be better prepared to kick her to the curb and D as cleanly as you can with enough evidence to prove infidelity and to have OMs to post up on Cheaterville.com and yes before you shudder and think "is there more than one?" yes, if she likes to talk dirty then she will have more than one guy that can fill her time sexting and what not with.


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## RFguy (Feb 17, 2013)

To answer the technical part of your question, there are several ways to log the traffic between a router and the hosts, whether it is wired or wireless.

However, most of these messaging applications use an added layer of protection by encrypting the packets before sending them. So even if you are able to intercept them, they will be gibberish.

Your best option is to install a spyware/keylogger application directly on the device she uses to communicate.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

What kind of phone does she have? Does she leave it laying around? Is it glued to her hip? Does she sleep with it?

What were the consequences for her when you caught her cheating?

Children?


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

verify said:


> I tried putting logging software on her mobile, but she spotted it & went ballistic.


You should have passwords to all her devices and accounts and be able to look at them whenever you want; if you want spyware on there, it should be no problem. Why would she care if you could see everything she does on her phone? Unless she's cheating or saying horrible things about you? Let me get this straight - she exchanged raunchy explicit sexual texts and pictures with a guy from work, and you didn't go ballistic; but you put spyware on her phone, and she did go ballistic? And you immediately backed down? Sounds like she's got you just where she wants you - afraid of angering her.

I think you are in for a lot of future heartache if you and your wife can't agree that there should be no secrets between you. My suggestion would be that if she doesn't want to share a life together, including keeping no secrets, that it would be better if you just parted ways now. Why drag it out?

I am not against spying when you think you are being cheated on, but you also have to stand up for yourself as to what you are willing to accept and not willing to accept in the marriage. You should not accept her hiding things from you, and she shouldn't care if you see her communications if she's not hiding things from you.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

OpenDNS will track what domains she's visiting, but not individual websites. It's free, so it's worth a try. A man in the middle exploit could work, but it's not that easy for the lay person.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

verify said:


> (I was a rotten husband: not paying her any attention etc. & when someone else _did_; she had succumb, but she stopped it short of a physical affair.)
> 
> 
> I tried putting logging software on her mobile, but she spotted it & went ballistic.
> ...


Two things:

1) She decided to cheat - and cheat she did. She *says* she stopped short. We've all heard that. This has nothing to do with your actions. Some counsellors are idiots. Scratch that - a LOT of counsellors are idiots. Are you in the UK?

2) If she went ballistic, then this has been handled wrong. She is in the wrong here. You should have all of her passwords and access to anything she does (and vice versa). She knows she has something to hide - you know, the cheating. *That* is why she went ballistic.

She is a ticking time bomb. She has already cheated and we have no idea by how much. She will cheat again as she has seen no consequences.

Get a hold of the Married Man's Sex Life Primer by Athol. Reading it may save your marriage.

Whilst you're at it, get Just Good Friends by Shirley Glass.

Expect serious resistance from your wife. You have to be firm, or accept that you will not have a marriage.

One last thing, do not see that counsellor again.


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## verify (Jun 30, 2013)

Blimey guys!
What a lot of helpful replies!
Thank you.

To be fair to her; I *really was a rotten husband*.
We lived practically separate lives. Sex = 6 times per year ish. Holidays = just her & the kids (my choice). Hardly ever kissing, cuddling or saying "I love you".
She genuinely had cause for complaint, although I didn't see it at the time.

I didn't go ballistic about the messages because I love her & my kids too much to lose them.
I simply asked her who she wanted to be with - him or me. She said "You (if you'll have me)". I said "of course".
2 days later she came home from work & said "We need to talk." "I don't feel the same way about you any more."
I was broken in two.
I have changed my ways now: We go out together regularly now (as a family), go on holidays together, and we kiss & cuddle etc. all the time. It's great!

It has been difficult, but we've finally pulled through.
It took a long time for her to admit that she *did* have feelings for him (after the messaging had stopped) despite her saying that it was a joke/banter that had gone too far, up to that point.

I have changed my behaviour, and, according to her: She is now being open & honest, & in return; I should trust her.
You all know that it's not as easy as that!
I just want something that will tell me when she's sent a whatsapp message & to what telephone number (even if the message itself is garbled).
She says that she is now telling me whenever she has any contact with him at all, so if I knew, for sure, that they were or weren't messaging behind my back I would know where I stand.


Thanks pollywog. I'll give it a try.

Rottdad42: The kiss from years ago was _apparently_ a peck on the cheek to say goodbye - in a crowded pub, with his girlfriend knocking about nearby.
My wife had told her friend about it over the phone because her friend knew that she fancied him (even though she had/has never told him).
I have no intention of being stepped on & if I can get clarification regarding the Whatsapp WiFi traffic on our router I'll be a happy man with a happy family.
Thank you very much for your response & your kind concern.

wranglerman: I'm pretty sure that she's not addicted to the affections of other men, but thanks for your concern.
Her mobile is new & she would be suspicious if I bought her a new one now, but I will bare in mind your idea of trying other spyware once the dust has settled.
If I can get a WiFi Traffic Logger of some sort, I can forget about spyware for now.
If she _is_ still messaging him; I'm sure that it's not full on, like before, but *any* message that she kept from me (even "Hi") would be enough to prove a lack of trustworthiness. Thanks again.

RFguy: Thanks for your help. I'm intrigued. I don't mind if the messages are gibberish as long as I know whenever she sends/receives a message to/from his number.
Can you elaborate on the "... ways to log the traffic between a router and the hosts ..."? Thanks.

Chaparral: Putting spyware on her samsung gt-1900 is not a safe option at the moment. I'm trying to show trust, and our relationship is running smoothly at the moment. Thanks for your input.

Will_Kane: You're right about me being afraid of angering her. She's wronged me by sexting, but I wronged her 1st with my behaviour as a bad husband, & the last thing I want to do is to split up. I want to see her and my 2 kids every day, not once a week for an hour or 2. If I said that I wanted to see her phone whenever I wanted to - she would agree to it but, if she is still in touch with him she would delete all messages before I see them. Likewise with spyware: if she is still in touch with him she would use another mobile. Thanks for your support. I only wish I had your strength.

BrockLanders: I *am* a layman, but can manipulate HTML & JavaScript, so I might be able to learn OpenDNS if you could point me in the direction of a tutorial website. Could you also explain the "... man in the middle exploit ..." please? Thank you.

Chris989: I like your attitude. Yes mate: UK. Counselling has now ended (She says we don't need it because "We are sorted" because she is now being open & honest).

Thanks *everyone* for your help & support.
I wish I'd found this forum months ago.


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

A popular man in the middle prog is wire shark. Easily found via google. I tried to use it, but it was beyond me. Plenty of open source software to help sift data too. Also check out Cain and able. Might be helpful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Wireshark is, afaik, only good for monitoring individual PCs/network adapters. If you want it to sniff packets, have a look here:

Riverbed | Wireshark Enhancement Products - Wireless Traffic Packet Capture

Also, whilst being powerful it throws up a lot of data and it can be difficult to see what is going where.


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## pollywog (May 30, 2013)

I tried the wireshark and cain and able, could not get anything, but then I am not that tech smart either. 

I want to pull stuff from the phone, but cannot get it, glued to him at all times.


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## verify (Jun 30, 2013)

I had a quick go at Cain & able earlier, but had to remove it as I didn't have time. I'll look at your link in more detail when I get the chance Chris, thanks.

polywog: My wife admitted to looking at my phone a few weeks ago. I keep it with me at all times (like your fella), but I leave it in my trouser pocket at night. She kept herself awake, 1 night, until I'd gone to sleep, and then looked at my phone in the bathroom. Would that be possible for you?

Thanks again folks.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

OP. Be very careful. I see the "signs" of rugsweeping in your situation. Good luck to you! But be vigilant. Just saying.....


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

With this behavior I would very likely divorce. She should be very willingly give you anything you ask. She's not giving to you since she is very guilty of cheating. Cheaters lie and lie. You will have to look through her phone when she isn't looking. There must be other behaviors that have you suspicious. Hire a private investigator if you need to. You can put a VAR in her car under the seat. This is voice activated and will record every time she is talking on the phone. Good luck.

If my husband ever felt the need to put a tracker on my phone, he can surely do this. I would do anything to keep our marriage strong. I have absolutely nothing to hide.


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## RFguy (Feb 17, 2013)

To capture wifi traffic you will need the Backtrack Live CD which is a distibution of linux that is designed specifically for penetration testing.

Then you wil need a wifi card that is capable of working in promiscuous mode, ie capture packets that are intended for other wifi adaptors.

Then you use wireshark, which is included in the CD to capture the packets.

I've never managed to make a wifi card work in promiscuous mode, but then I haven't tried hard enough. There are many how-tos in the Backtrack website to help you and several online tutorials on how to use Wireshark.

However if the messaging app she uses is more security oriented, everything, including the numbers she calls, will be encrypted. 

But maybe you are lucky and the app sends everything in cleartext. Then you will be able to read the message texts too.


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## pollywog (May 30, 2013)

verify said:


> I had a quick go at Cain & able earlier, but had to remove it as I didn't have time. I'll look at your link in more detail when I get the chance Chris, thanks.
> polywog: My wife admitted to looking at my phone a few weeks ago. I keep it with me at all times (like your fella), but I leave it in my trouser pocket at night. She kept herself awake, 1 night, until I'd gone to sleep, and then looked at my phone in the bathroom. Would that be possible for you?
> 
> Thanks again folks.


No he plugs it in at the head of the bed and puts it under his pillow. He takes it in the bathroom when he gets a shower and other wise hidden some where. I have searched the house over and have not found the hiding spot.


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## verify (Jun 30, 2013)

Thanks for taking the time to respond folks.

This WiFi sniffing sounds like it's going to be very time consuming.
I was hoping that there was something out there that's easy to use & user friendly.
I'd heard of Whatsapp sniffer (which apparently doesn't work) 
& Whatsapp hacker (which isn't really what I'm after).
Apparently you can pretend to be someone else with Whatsapp hacker - send & receive messages which seem to come from someone's mobile.

Thanks Hoosier.
I have no intention of sweeping anything under the carpet mate.
I have a logger on our PC., access to her work e-mails (unless she deletes them before leaving work), and I am vigilant.
I get a copy of an e-mail each month showing the top 5 people she's rang/texted on her mobile (it's not a contract).
If I could sniff the Whatsapp messages I'd be sorted.
I've tried other things in the past including VAR in the car & even a DIY real-time tracker.
Unfortunately that didn't work because she regularly parked on a multi-storey car park which loses the signal.

Thanks again RFguy.
It sounds like a lot of hard work & I'll need plenty of spare time to figure it out.
Hopefully I can find the time to have a go soon.

Sorry to hear that pollywog.
The only thing that springs to mind (Re: finding the hiding spot) is to send him a text - just before you walk into the house.
Hopefully his mobile's text-tone will ping while you're inside the house.
Just an "I love you" text or "I'll be home shortly" text & if he asks, say you sent it 5 minutes ago.

Thanks again everyone.


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## verify (Jun 30, 2013)

Hey Pollywog

If *I* were keeping my mobile hidden somewhere, I would put it high up, where I could reach it but no-one could see it, like on top of a kitchen cupboard.
Just sayin'.
+
If his mobile is on contract, he will get an on-line statement from the provider.
That would tell you who he calls & texts (but not Whatsapp, facebook, e-mail etc.).
If you don't have his password, you might get it using a keylogger (*if* he sign's in himself occasionally).
If you've never used a keyboard logger; be careful. It's easy to make mistakes & get caught - until you know the pitfalls.
There are plenty of people here that would help you with that (including me) if you decide to install one.

Good luck.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

verify said:


> I am looking for some software or hardware that will log the traffic (whatsapp messages etc.) through my wifi router.
> Is there such a thing?
> 
> History:
> ...


depending on the router they all have logging functions. You could have the log sent to your computer. Also there is a link to an evidence gathering thread. Inside is instructions on how to use cain and abel. Which will force the traffic from your wife's computer to go through cain and able on your computer before it gets to your router and you can see what's going on that way.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Loggers need to be installed on the devices themselves... Wireless can be sniffed, but it will most likely be encrypted and then you have gibberish.


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## pollywog (May 30, 2013)

I have the logger, I want to sniff his phone when it is on wireless ;-) . He does most of his stuff via his phone and not the computer, altho I did capture passwords with the logger.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Unless the logger is on his phone, give up trying to sniff the wireless. You will have no luck unless you have the most unsecure network in the nation by running everything Open without encryption. Most have even the most basic encryption enabled by default, but even then with encryption this low, you may break the key, but will have very little (read NONE) success in reading the stream. The best that you could hope for would be reading the logs to find the connected IPs and tracing them to find out places visited (you still won't have information other than that site was visited) and if he really wants to hide it he will use a proxy.


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## pollywog (May 30, 2013)

I know, wishful thinking on my part. We are secured. Can't put logger on phone because we use Lookout and it will disable the loggers. Can't get his phone anyway


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## Martin12 (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm sure the NSA can help.


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## verify (Jun 30, 2013)

Just thought I'd come back & let you all know that you were right.
Rottdad42, wranglerman, Chris989 - she did do it again (get in touch with him & talk dirty).
Will_Kane - I was "in for a lot of future heartache"
Chris989 - Re: "she *says* she stopped short. We've all heard that" - it transpired that it wasn't just sexting (see below).

The sexting took place in January 2013, but it wasn't until the following September that she admitted that they, quote: "tried to have sex" (apparently it "didn't work").
I mentioned previously that; 2 days after I found out about the messages she came home, saying: "We need to talk." "I don't feel the same way about you any more."
I asked her to give me another chance (a chance to change my ways) & suggested that she went to see her step-mother (as she's a good listener), which she did.
In September, she admitted that after talking to her step-mum she'd texted the guy from work, met up with him (wanting comfort from him, as she was upset).
Sitting in his car; She talked to him & cried. He put his arm around her. They kissed. And it went from there.

Anyway ... Since September, & up until a few weeks ago, everything was fine.
Then I noticed that she was being cagey with her mobile, & I asked if something was going on. She said "No", but she could see from the look on my face that I wasn't buying it.
A few hours later, she thrust her phone at me, saying "Is this what's up with you?!"
He had sent her a message which she thought I'd seen because she thought I had put spyware on her phone again. (I hadn't)
She then explained that she had messaged him, just to say "How are you? I haven't seen you for a while".
The next day, I asked if there was more to it & she admitted that they had been "flirting". Saying "how much they had enjoyed it last time & how they'd like to do it again".
I told her that I wouldn't be coming home after work that night - I was leaving.
I later learned that She told her friend that a part of her was relieved that I was going. I don't really know why. IMHO I was being a good husband.
My friend advised me not to stay away that night, saying "Go home & fix it". So I went home.

A few days later; she was being cagey with the phone again. I confronted her again & again she admitted messaging him.
This time it was, quote: "To check that he's ok, as I'm closing the chapter". That was the final straw.
The next morning, I left for work without doing my morning rituals (washing dishes, making sandwiches & breakfasts etc.) & left before anyone woke up. She knew I'd walked out on her.
I ignored her texts & phone calls too.
Within a few hours she had found where I was working & came to the door, crying & apologising.


I came home & we're still together. I know that I should leave, but I love her, despite everything.
I realise that she will do it again, sooner or later, but I'll never be happy if we split up either. Life sucks! :-( 

Thanks again everyone, for your help & advice.


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## Turin74 (Apr 11, 2014)

On the original subject on the traffic sniffing. There are a number of sniffers on the market that can sniff all traffic on your wifi as soon as the client (pc or whatever) that is running it has credentials to join your wifi. The problem is that most of the messaging apps including whatsup encrypt traffic end to end using ssl. So even if you sniff it, you won't see anything apart from some encrypted packets going to and from some ip address (which won't be even ip address of the other party). There was a vulnerability in whatsapp discovered earlier this year but it has been fixed anyway. So you have to snoop the phone or tablet.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Damn, you had her where you wanted but it sounds like you folded like a cheap tent. Worse, it sounds like you know it was way to fast to go back home.

Did you read mmslp? Did you understand it? She just wanted you to come back and be the caretaker.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm genuinely sorry to hear we were right; I guess now your have moved from 'waiting' to a 'work in progress'.

This is just the beginning and you must be hurting a lot.

Don't, however, settle for her doing it again - it will be the undoing of both of you.

How have you left things? Consequences - even I'd just emotional - are vital.

Stay strong.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

verify said:


> In September, she admitted that
> Sitting in his car; She talked to him & cried. He put his arm around her. They kissed. And it went from there.
> 
> Anyway ... Since September, & up until a few weeks ago, everything was fine.
> ...


I suggest a voice-activated recorder in the car and/or in the house.

At this point it seems you only know what she is telling you, which probably is not the whole story.

What are the odds that you know the full extent of it? She only is admitting to what she thinks you already know.

How are your 2 kids doing? It's worth straightening this mess out for their sake.

How does she SAY she feels about you now, and how does she ACT like she feels about you now? What's her general demeanor, level of affection, sexual attraction, general closeness to you? Do you feel like she's "all in"?

Have you exposed this to the other man's wife?

Does she still work with this guy and see him regularly?

Has she agreed to "no contact" with the other guy?

What is she doing to allow you to re-gain trust? 

At one point you posted she said "I don't feel the same way about you anymore." Assuming she meant that she no longer felt sexual attraction to you, or "in love" with you, did she ever say whether her feelings for you returned? 

It sounds like you're just putting it in the past and moving on, like you are resigned to it happening again, like you feel powerless to stop it. What are your plans to improve things?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Rinse, repeat


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

So, Verify. She's managed to play the old "I didn't get enough attention, so I deserved to act like an irresponsible s1ut." Men are too quick to be convinced they have committed the sin of not enough attention. What about the sin of not enough respect for marriage/husband she has committed? That gets a pass, but you should pay for her dreamed up allegations of mistreatment?

She needs the lights turned on for her. Actually both of you do. If she's got a problem, its you she needs to talk to, not talk like a sewer rat to her coworkers. Her behavior is miles worse than yours. She is a married woman, but acts like a childish, wanton girl.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

Sorry man I'm late to the party.

So they had sex in September 2013? What were the consequences at that point? Doesn't sound like there were any, and now she's reached out to him at least twice more? What happens a third time?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## verify (Jun 30, 2013)

Thanks for the info, Turin74. Other people have said pretty much the same thing.

I'm sorry, Chaparral, I didn't read mmslp. You might be right about wanting me as a caretaker, although it doesn't feel that way. She constantly wants to kiss & hug & hold hands & go out together etc.
Why would she be so loving & attentive if she sees me as a caretaker? :scratchhead:
I just feel so mixed up & confused at the moment. 

Thanks for the support, Chris989.
That's exactly what I need right now, although; what I expected to hear was "We told you so!".
How have we left things? - 
She says that she's taken his number off her phone, and isn't contacting him anymore (Yes, I have heard that before).

I may well return to my trusty old VAR, Just Joe. Just for peace of mind.
Quote: "At this point it seems you only know what she is telling you, which probably is not the whole story." *Got it in one, mate!*
Thanks for asking about our kids. Your concern has made me well-up. 

She has changed since the day I walked out. It's weird & I don't understand it.
She seems as though she's "all in". She seems really relaxed now & leaves her phone lying around etc..
Yes - I have considered the possibility that she's bought a spare phone & I have tried to test this theory.
If she has one; I would expect her to use it when she goes to bed early, or goes upstairs for whatever reason.
When that happens, I turn off the WiFi router to see if she she will look at it when she comes back downstairs.
It would be instinctive to check the router if you were failing to connect, yeah? But she doesn't even glance at it.
I realise that she could be texting, rather than using internet chat app, such as Whatsapp, but that's been her prefered method so far.
Apart from putting a spy-cam in our bedroom, it would be difficult to know whether she's up to something, or just sleeping.

The other man is single (& half her age), and, although they work at the same place, they hardly ever bump into each other (or so she says).
A while ago, when she was telling me whenever she saw him at work, it averaged once a month, but she claims not to have seen him since 20th Feb. 
Quote: "What is she doing to allow you to re-gain trust? ". I don't know what she could do. Do you?
Any suggestions that you have, Re: "plans to improve things" would be much appreciated.

*Basically - We need to talk.*


P.S. warlock07 & Forest: You're both right, of course.


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## verify (Jun 30, 2013)

Not quite, PhillyGuy13.
She sexted him & then had sex with him in January 2013, but didn't admit to the sex until September 2013.
Then contacted him, for the 2nd time a few weeks ago.

I hope there won't be a next time & I'm currently trying to decide whether to stay or leave, because of what's already happened.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

verify said:


> Not quite, PhillyGuy13.
> She sexted him & then had sex with him in January 2013, but didn't admit to the sex until September 2013.
> Then contacted him, for the 2nd time a few weeks ago.
> 
> I hope there won't be a next time & I'm currently trying to decide whether to stay or leave, because of what's already happened.


You need to implement reasonable and intelligent consequences for her actions, most especially her most recent communications w/ OM. Additionally, she needs to see that you're willing and able to move on and function w/o her in your life. She won't respect you until you show her this.

Otherwise, prepare yourself for the notion that you'll once again be sharing your wife w/ another man. _And very, very soon._


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## X-B (Jul 25, 2013)

Mine at home and work can track IP addresses only. It shows no details of what was done.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Cell phones can easily use phone service for internet access. She doesn't need access to your wifi to use apps for communication. All you may see on your phone bill is how many bytes of data she has used in the month. Chat stuff uses very little data.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

verify said:


> Thanks for the info, Turin74. Other people have said pretty much the same thing.
> 
> I'm sorry, Chaparral, I didn't read mmslp. You might be right about wanting me as a caretaker, although it doesn't feel that way. She constantly wants to kiss & hug & hold hands & go out together etc.
> Why would she be so loving & attentive if she sees me as a caretaker? :scratchhead:
> I just feel so mixed up & confused at the moment.


This is her way of ensuring that you're unable to detach from her, which means that she gets to keep you as husband, father, and provider while she's out seeking sexual and/or emotional gratification outside of your marriage.



verify said:


> Thanks for the support, Chris989.
> That's exactly what I need right now, although; what I expected to hear was "We told you so!".
> How have we left things? -
> She says that she's taken his number off her phone, and isn't contacting him anymore (Yes, I have heard that before).


Yes, because there's no way that she doesn't know his number by memory... right?!?



verify said:


> I may well return to my trusty old VAR, Just Joe. Just for peace of mind.


Good idea. Do this.



verify said:


> Quote: "At this point it seems you only know what she is telling you, which probably is not the whole story." *Got it in one, mate!*
> Thanks for asking about our kids. Your concern has made me well-up.
> 
> She has changed since the day I walked out. It's weird & I don't understand it.
> ...


One VAR in the car, another in the bedroom. Also, turning off the wifi won't do jack where cell phones or tablets w/ a data plan are concerned, as they'll simply default over to the available 3G/4G connection once wifi is unavailable.

Oh, and the reason that her changes seem "weird" to you? She's putting up a front.



verify said:


> The other man is single (& half her age), and, although they work at the same place, they hardly ever bump into each other (or so she says).
> A while ago, when she was telling me whenever she saw him at work, it averaged once a month, but she claims not to have seen him since 20th Feb.
> Quote: "What is she doing to allow you to re-gain trust? ". I don't know what she could do. Do you?
> Any suggestions that you have, Re: "plans to improve things" would be much appreciated.
> ...


She. Needs. To. Quit. Her. Job. Period. Exclamation point.

Seriously, how could you even be OK w/ her continuing to work at the same place as OM? This creates hours and hours and hours of opportunity for them -- every day, every week. Given everything else that you've provided here, you'd be beyond naive to believe that they aren't seeing each other at least semi-regularly.

Think about it! Why would she need to contact him via her cell or e-mail/social media accounts, when she has 30-40 or more hours EVERY SINGLE WEEK in which to continue seeing him, especially since she knows that you're watching her? That you caught her speaking w/ him recently would seem to indicate only that she was "jonesing" for some after-hours OM attention, and that she hoped that either you'd stopped looking or that it would slip through the cracks.

To what degree was her affair exposed? Your family? Hers? OM's wife and/or girlfriend (don't believe your wife, by the way, if she tells you that he's single and/or his girlfriend already knows)? Workplace?


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

If you both haven't gotten tested for STD's then you should do it, NOW.

She knew that you knew she was still in contact with the OM and she had sex with him any way... That says a lot about her character.

At least you realize that she's probably going to cheat on you again, so you know what to expect when you find out about it the next time.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

verify said:


> The sexting took place in January 2013, but it wasn't until the following September that she admitted that they, quote: "tried to have sex" (apparently it "didn't work"). I mentioned previously that; 2 days after I found out about the messages she came home, saying: "We need to talk." "I don't feel the same way about you any more."
> I asked her to give me another chance (a chance to change my ways) & suggested that she went to see her step-mother (as she's a good listener), which she did.
> In September, she admitted that after talking to her step-mum she'd texted the guy from work, met up with him (wanting comfort from him, as she was upset).
> Sitting in his car; She talked to him & cried. He put his arm around her. They kissed. And it went from there.


How did the confession come about and why do you think you got it all in one?


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Sorry to say this but I think you've figured it out already: Don't believe anything she tells you about the OM. NOTHING.

How do you know he isn't married? She told you - don't believe it. 
How do you know they don't see each other often at work? She told you - don't believe it. 
How do you know they had sex once after all the flirting/sexting/sitting in cars together? She told you .... you get the picture. 

Find out everything you can about the dude... hire a PI if necessary - if he's not committed to someone else - then he's committed to your wife. 

Find out who his significant other is and expose far and wide. 

Ask your wife who else knew about her affair - there's sure to be at least a few enablers/cheerleaders

Why don't you insist your wife find other employment ASAP as part of her heavy lifting? I think it's imperative.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

verify said:


> up until a few weeks ago, everything was fine.
> Then I noticed that she was being cagey with her mobile, & I asked if something was going on. She said "No", but she could see from the look on my face that I wasn't buying it.
> A few hours later, she thrust her phone at me, saying "Is this what's up with you?!"
> He had sent her a message which she thought I'd seen because she thought I had put spyware on her phone again. (I hadn't)
> ...


So they were saying how much they both enjoyed the sex last time and how they'd like to have sex again, just a few weeks ago?

How do you feel about her working with other man? Can they communicate on work phones and work emails during the day?


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Ughh. I hate these stories. Cheating wife. Brings it underground, we can all see it...heck even the OP can see it but he just doesn't care enough to leave.

I'm sorry man but this is finished.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

She is still having sex with him.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Verify, is she still sticking to the "tried to have sex but it didn't work" fabrication? Sounds like you couldn't pull a needle of truth out of her a$$ with a tractor. Don't believe anything, and verify with all the resources at your disposal. "She seems all in"--this is what she'd want you to believe, isn't it?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

:iagree:

It's sad to think that years of uncertainty and well over a full year of recon has left him at this point...



verify said:


> I came home & we're still together. I know that I should leave, but I love her, despite everything.
> I realise that she will do it again, sooner or later, but I'll never be happy if we split up either. Life sucks! :-(


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## verify (Jun 30, 2013)

Thanks again guys.



I wish that I *could*


GusPolinski said:


> ... implement reasonable and intelligent consequences for her actions ...


 Gus, but what?
I have no leverage. If we split up; she gets the kids, the house, everything. It would be me that loses out.

I don't think a VAR in the bedroom would be any use. Imagine: Lying in bed pretending to sleep, with the phone on silent. (no sounds to pick up).

She doesn't have much of a family to expose her actions to. Mother (who has a psychological hatred of men per se, & I'm public enemy number 1), & 2 step-brothers.
But, yes, everyone knows, although they got her version - the downtrodden wife seeks comfort elsewhere, sort of thing.






Just Joe said:


> How did the confession come about and why do you think you got it all in one?


She'd been seeing an Individual Counsellor & presumably they'd suggested that she should get it off her chest. + I meant *You've* got it in one. i.e. You're right 1st time.






walkonmars said:


> How do you know ...


His Facebook page.
He's 23, single, wasn't in a relationship at the time & isn't now either.
She's a secretary at the local (large) hospital & spends most of her time in an office. He's a porter & works shifts in a different part of the hospital.
occasionally there paths meet if she leaves the office to get something from theatre etc.. Their paths might cross once a month, on average, but she claims not to have seen him since Feb'.
... but yes, I get the picture.
Not sure what you mean by


walkonmars said:


> ... heavy lifting







Just Joe said:


> Can they communicate on work phones and work emails during the day?


E-mails - Yes, but I got that covered.
Phones? - only on mobiles. His number would show up on her monthly statement & I would know if she connected to the internet (for Whatsapp etc.) during the daytime.
Yes; she could have a 2nd phone that I don't know about.






Philat said:


> Verify, is she still sticking to the "tried to have sex but it didn't work" fabrication?


Yes. I'll ask again soon though.





*Any suggestions for repercussions for her actions (that don't hurt me more than her) would be much appreciated guys.*

Thanks again.


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## Turin74 (Apr 11, 2014)

Consequences are not about leverage. Whatever you do from this point onwards involves being hurt, you have to accept this, the is no Rainbow bridge to the bright tomorrow. You need to realize a) what do you want moving forward, and b) how much hurt and loss are you prepared to take. 

Example, expose her/om to the workplace, but only if you are ready to loose her.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

verify said:


> I wish that I *could* Gus, but what?
> I have no leverage. If we split up; she gets the kids, the house, everything. It would be me that loses out.


How do you know this? And besides, the kind of things that I'm talking about are...

* She quits her job.
* She commits to 100% NC w/ OM. She writes a NC letter, you approve it, and then you send it.
* Additionally, she goes NC w/ any toxic friends that may have known about and/or encouraged the affair. 
* Marriage counseling as appropriate.
* She allows you to temporarily take control of any social media accounts and drop/block friends as you see fit.

Basically, stuff like that.



verify said:


> I don't think a VAR in the bedroom would be any use. Imagine: Lying in bed pretending to sleep, with the phone on silent. (no sounds to pick up).


Uhhh... The VAR doesn't pick up just phone calls, and phone calls aren't the only thing that happen in bedrooms. Just saying.



verify said:


> She doesn't have much of a family to expose her actions to. Mother (who has a psychological hatred of men per se, & I'm public enemy number 1), & 2 step-brothers.
> But, yes, everyone knows, although they got her version - the downtrodden wife seeks comfort elsewhere, sort of thing.


Expose to the extent possible.



verify said:


> E-mails - Yes, but I got that covered.


Does she know that?


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> Unless the logger is on his phone, give up trying to sniff the wireless. You will have no luck unless you have the most unsecure network in the nation by running everything Open without encryption. Most have even the most basic encryption enabled by default, but even then with encryption this low, you may break the key, but will have very little (read NONE) success in reading the stream. The best that you could hope for would be reading the logs to find the connected IPs and tracing them to find out places visited (you still won't have information other than that site was visited) and if he really wants to hide it he will use a proxy.


I am a little confused. Lets say your wireless network in your home uses WPA2 encryption. That means that WIRELESSLY your packets are encrypted. But that wireless access point eventually plugs into a modem. At THAT POINT it is no longer encrypted (except for whatever whatsapp, etc, apply in the program itself). So high level encryption should not be an issue, should it?


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## Turin74 (Apr 11, 2014)

murphy5 said:


> I am a little confused. Lets say your wireless network in your home uses WPA2 encryption. That means that WIRELESSLY your packets are encrypted. But that wireless access point eventually plugs into a modem. At THAT POINT it is no longer encrypted (except for whatever whatsapp, etc, apply in the program itself). So high level encryption should not be an issue, should it?


That is correct. In short wpa2 (and wpa and wep) encrypts all traffic to your wireless access point (wap). Once your traffic is outside wap (wired) - your router, your modem and beyond it is not encrypted by wpa2. If you have a sniffer on your wired network or wireless with wpa2 credentials, your can see all of it. All / most apps designed to work via Internet therfore implement their own e2e encryption - between the app itself and the server. So all data are encrypted before the app sends out to the server wireless or not.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

There are a couple of things here that don't sound right to me. Number one, what does she mean it didn't work? A 23 year old man that has been chasing a woman for months and he couldn't get it up? C'mon man. Secondly I am not into all the spyware, but you can't encrypt the dial string or the switch wouldn't know where to send the text. The text may be encrypted, but the dial string would not and that is all he needs. Actually if you have the same software, you may be able to encrypt it as well.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

With all due respect to secretaries everywhere, she can get another job anywhere. She is a secretary at the hospital, not the chief of surgery. She should have quit this job a year ago.

I think people are saying what about her WORK phone line and WORK email account. How do you have those covered? And while they work in different parts of the hospital, they both get breaks, lunches, etc. he swings by to see her at least once a day.

Unfortunately at this point even if she left her job, unless you guys moved across the country, she will still go see him. 

Document all infidelity. Consult with 10 good attorneys, hire one. Fight for your kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

So the only thing you know about what goes on at he the hospital is what she tells you? Is that how you know where he works and his schedules? What has changed regarding her and his work since the part of the affair that you can verify with out her input?

From what we have seen here, there are plenty of places in a hospital including the parking garages for them to get together pretty much anytime.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Talk to a local lawyer to get some actual real factual legitimate knowledgeable information on what a divorce would likely mean for you. Many lawyers will give you a free 15 minute consult during which you give an brief overview of your situation and then they tell you what is typical in your location in the way of child custody and asset division.

You lose custody? Not likely unless you're a drug addict or convicted sex abuser. Most likely is 50/50 these days.

Her get the house? Maybe, but it is part of the 50/50 split of assets. She may reside in the house but she will not get more than half the net worth you two have. She will likely get a big debt along with the house. In fact, it is very common for ex-wives to go bankrupt and/or default on the mortgage shortly after divorce.

You will likely pay her some child support if you earn more than she does. But you spend that money already on the kids.

Alimony depends on your location and the specifics of your situation. Chances are you won't pay alimony, but ask a local lawyer.

Lose your retirement savings? Nope, you split your assets 50/50 with her, which includes all savings and investments. But, you can keep your retirement account if you are willing to give her other assets such as the equity in your house or other cash/investment accounts. You will likely lose half your net assets in a divorce.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Thor said:


> Talk to a local lawyer to get some actual real factual legitimate knowledgeable information on what a divorce would likely mean for you. Many lawyers will give you a free 15 minute consult during which you give an brief overview of your situation and then they tell you what is typical in your location in the way of child custody and asset division.
> 
> You lose custody? Not likely unless you're a drug addict or convicted sex abuser. Most likely is 50/50 these days.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with everything stated here. OP, why in the world would you think that she would get everything? It just doesn't work that way. All the Court is concerned with is dividing everything up as evenly as possible. You are entitled to half of everything, just as she is. Thor is right; that usually means 50/50 custody as well.

I just don't understand why you would think she gets the whole ball of wax.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Did I misunderstand something or did she say she only was with him once and it didn't work? Meaning, she says she was with him and had sex but didn't like it or she was with him once and it didn't work (he couldn't get hard)?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

She can use Whatsapp with either 3g or 4g. Most cells do the transition automatically, so she wouldn't even need to look at the router


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## James2020 (Jun 4, 2014)

You can also change your wifi router to always use OpenDNS (see opendns.com). This gives you access to a login that will show all internet activity. Unfortunately it doesn't separate by device and you cannot see exactly what is being done on the sites, but at least you can see what sites are being viewed and which days.

It's nothing ideal, but does give you a sense of what sites are being visited.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Sniffing traffic is just not going to be that easy for someone like you, straight and simple. 

You can try Colasoft which is much easier than wireshark. But it is still a technical tool. 

Whatsapp is encrypted so encryption has nothing to do with your router. So when you even when you capture the data, it will still look like garbage to you. Now if you get her user account and password for the app. You *MIGHT* be able to decrypt her part of the chat. Again it all depends on how they do it. So you might not get anything regardless.. 

End result sniffing the traffic for you is not worth your effort and time. Unless you want to learn about such things and it will help you keep your mind busy.

Sorry your going through this, but eventually you will have to pull the emotional trigger here. It won't get any better until your wife knows you're willing to give this all up.. But again you have to be ready to do so as well. You will have to come to grips with the reality that she *WILL* cut you loose when confronted. 

Honestly I wasn't when my wife told me.. My chest collapsed. I couldn't think straight.. It caused me issues at work. This all happened December 30th 2012.. I still go to therapy today for it. Once a week like religion or some sort of AA meeting. 

This wasn't my first time on this rodeo. I been through this sort of thing 3 other times in the past. Part of me would have been happy burying my head in the sand.. The pain was almost unbearable. God, I tell you it hurt so much. knowing what I feel, I WOULD wish this on my worst enemy.. It can drive you to drink, or worse.. For me it was close to worse.. I want to say I thought about my kids, but I didn't.. The pain made sure I didn't.. But I'm here today.. What don't kill you makes you stronger right ?.. In many ways it does.. In other ways it makes a bit crazy and untrusting of other women *( or men depending on where you standing )*.


But honestly burying my head in the sand was never the answer.. Pretending all was okay wasn't the answer.. My wife shouldn't have done that either.. Now I'm like a hawk.. A crazy fvcking hawk.. I've caught my G.F. lie to me a few times. Not about cheating but nonetheless I wasn't nice.. I was over the top.. But she clearly understands from the last time I will cut her loose in heart beat. 

My whole point.. 

No one should make you feel uncertain and insecure, especially someone who supposedly loves you. 

You have trust issues and have an issue with her and what she might or might not be doing.. 
You have the right to confront her.. You have the right to go to counseling. 

If it were me and I did nothing wrong, but it looked wrong. I would do whatever is needed to fix my marriage and make my wife trust me. The last thing I would want to do is hurt someone I love like that.. My wife is my world and I after getting divorced learned that I should be the same for her. 

Do some soul searching.. Cry.. Cry some more.. But just confront her and start healing one way or another.. Trust me this just isn't worth your stress. You just don't see it now.. I didn't either..


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## verify (Jun 30, 2013)

Sorry it's taken so long to get back to you, guys.



I've had a talk with my wife recently & explained that I'm not happy.
She was taken aback, as she thought that everything had gone back to normal & was hunky dory.


Firstly: She's still sticking to the _"tried to have sex but it didn't work"_ story.
I asked if there was any penetration & said that I want to know, so that I can get tested for STI if there was.
She paused, said "No", then quickly added: "I've had a smear since then anyway."
My gut reaction to her answer was: "liar!"
I've been to the Doc & got myself tested yesterday.
I'm confident that the results will be negative, but I'm sure she'll be annoyed at me for getting tested.
I don't mind that though. I might feel pleased in telling her, as it's completely understandable that I would disbelieve her (given her previous lies).




PhillyGuy13 said:


> With all due respect to secretaries everywhere, she can get another job anywhere. She is a secretary at the hospital, not the chief of surgery.


I know what you mean Phil', but it's not quite that simple.
When a hospital loses a band-4 secretary, they usually have several band-3's, with the necessary qualifications, who want the pay raise, so they hire from within.
+
Since having the talk with her, she has become more active in her job-hunting, applied for 3, had 1 interview but failed to get it.




GusPolinski said:


> Uhhh... The VAR doesn't pick up just phone calls, and phone calls aren't the only thing that happen in bedrooms. Just saying.


I understand what you mean, but - No. She wouldn't bring someone to our family home (close-knit neighbourhood etc.) & she's sly, not brazen.
+ Does she know I've got the e-mails covered? I don't think so, but she is weary because I did it before, although she assumed it was a work colleague that gave me the info.


*Chaparral*: I've bought both the books that you suggested & I'm 2/3 the way through The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011.
I think Athol Kay should be tested for drugs. He must have been high when he wrote that book. Lol.


*Thor* & *happy as a clam*: There has to be serious issues for a mother not to get custody etc. here in the U.K.
Admittedly, a divorce would divide things up (60-40 to the mother is baseline here, apparently), but short-term; 
the guy usually moves out of the family home & gets to see the kids when it's convenient with the mother - until court/mediation.




What I'd like to do is make a No Contact contract/agreement & ask her to sign it (at marriage guidance counselling).
I'll start a new thread, with that in mind, as this one is a little off-topic now.


Thanks for your help & advice everyone.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Very, very few men read MMSLP and have that reaction. Some do and think it doesn't describe the relationship between men and women at all. Conversely, a huge percentage, I would guess over 90% think its a slam dunk. Most can take it, point out he changes they have gone through in their marriage and see how they lost what attracted their wives in the beginning of their relationship.

How do you explain your wifes loss of attraction for you and her attraction to another man?


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## verify (Jun 30, 2013)

I'm not saying it's complete & utter bull_____ *Chaparral*, but some of the stuff is just ... ridiculous.
I'd have to re-read the book to make a list of what I mean, but things like; women being able to asses a man for his genetic compatibility to her by sense of smell 
& vaginas knowing good quality sperm from poor quality sperm.
I'm sorry mate, but I don't buy that.



I'd say that my wife's loss of attraction for me was because I'm the bloke that she's been living with for 20 years, my attitude towards her, plus a lack of sex.
& the attraction to him was that he's a couple of notches above my sex-rank (as Athol would say)
i.e. He's half my age, fitter, better looking + the temptation of forbidden fruit.

If someone of the opposite sex, who's a couple of notches above your partner's sex-rank makes advances toward you, it's only natural to be flattered.
Whether or not you take up the offer is down to your own code of ethics etc. (IMHO)


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Verify, you might enjoy reading the ebook "Women's Infidelity". There is also a Part 2 to the book which is worth reading. Both can be found cheap on the internet if you poke around some. The full price version is not worth the money imho.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

verify said:


> I'm not saying it's complete & utter bull_____ *Chaparral*, but some of the stuff is just ... ridiculous.
> I'd have to re-read the book to make a list of what I mean, but things like; women being able to asses a man for his genetic compatibility to her by sense of smell
> & vaginas knowing good quality sperm from poor quality sperm.
> I'm sorry mate, but I don't buy that.
> ...


The smell thing has to do with a person's immune system. Women are drawn to compatible immune systems. This is scentifically proven stuff. At hoo didn't make this stuff up. Thoth he did a ton of research the book isn't footnoted for sources. If you search his claims though you can find sources.

An example is a British study that found married women that went on gnos, danced and dressed sexier than single women when they were ovulating. The seven year itch thing has been proven too and women look for different sperm donors to get genetic variability. It's like our thinking brain is just along for the ride. Morals have to override biology.


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## verify (Jun 30, 2013)

Thanks *Thor*
I'll look for that when I've done reading the 2 that Chaparral recommended.




Please don't think I'm being rude, *Chaparral*, it's just my sceptical belief system.
Some people believe in psychics, palm readers, healing crystals, spiritualists etc., others (like me) don't.
I dare say that; If I looked on the internet, I could find studies that show any/all of the above are genuine too, but I still don't buy it.

In my humble opinion, if it were possible to smell the state of someone's immune system, doctors would have an aroma diagnostic tool (or sniff your 'pits), rather than taking blood samples.
It's just my opinion, & I'm not saying that I'm right & he's wrong. 

Much of what Athol says makes sense & it's worth reading the book.
Thank you for recommending it.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> The smell thing has to do with a person's immune system. Women are drawn to compatible immune systems. This is scentifically proven stuff. At hoo didn't make this stuff up. Thoth he did a ton of research the book isn't footnoted for sources. If you search his claims though you can find sources.
> 
> An example is a British study that found married women that went on gnos, danced and dressed sexier than single women when they were ovulating. The seven year itch thing has been proven too and women look for different sperm donors to get genetic variability. *It's like our thinking brain is just along for the ride. Morals have to override biology.*


Well said.

Oh, and OP... AK is legit.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

verify said:


> I'm not saying it's complete & utter bull_____ *Chaparral*, but some of the stuff is just ... ridiculous.
> I'd have to re-read the book to make a list of what I mean, but things like; women being able to asses a man for his genetic compatibility to her by sense of smell


My Ex wife told me she hated the way I smell. 

The G.F. tells me she loves my smell, she can't understand it but it drives her nuts. She sniffs my neck like a dog sometimes. 

Its soap and water.. 

The sperm thing is more biological. Just something the body and brain can discern. Think microscopic here.. 

How do dogs smell cancer or sense when people will have epileptic seizures ? 

My G.F. wants me to gain weight so no woman will look at me. I on the other hand want to get in better shape.. We fight over me going to a Gym... 

Trust me *(us)* in these situations of Affairs. Right is wrong and left is right.. 

I understand the whole divorce and kids part the 60/40 issue.. I know its rough.. 

As was mentioned I think you need some defined lines of consequences to her actions.. 

You know finding a woman of your own might give you the strenght to leave.. I never thought I would say that or advocate that but, I said it.. 

I would read Wranglerman story. You just need to read his posts to get an idea of what went on. 

Look if you tell someone *"If you cross this line you will DIE from electrocution"* and they start toeing around the line. Maybe tossing rocks at it to see what happens and then they get a cat and toss it at the line and then notice nothing happens to the cat.. They now know you have nothing to back up what you say. They will jump in and out of that line more and more brazen every time..

You said your wife would never bring him home. Trust me when I tell you this, eventually she will not care at all about you to the point him coming over does not matter.

My ex introduced my son to the other man months before she even left or even planned on leaving.. 

I am telling you they just care less and less as times goes by. Like an old doctor with a bad bedside manner. They have seen and heard it all before, they are just tired of hearing people complain of their pains.. It's just human nature..

Trust me when I tell you you will see thing and she will do things you would NEVER expect her to do.. 

But I also understand why its so hard. It was very, very hard to let my ex wife go. In many ways it still is.. 

But your time will come.. There will come a time where you will just say I cannot live like this anymore regardless of what happens.. Trust me you* BOTH *will make your kids miserable if this gets worse and never resolved.

We as a collective just hate seeing people go through what we went through just to end up the same way.. For me I would want you to be strong enough to say either we fix this or I am done and mean it. Even if it means crying into a pillow every night for months.. Instead of dragging this out for another 4 months of pain and agony on your part *AND THEN* say I'm done. The reason behind that is because it will be those last months that you will remember as the worst.. It will be those months that your spouse will treat you the worst and do things you never imagined. 


We just want to spare you any more pain.. Its either your married or divorced and not in this limbo of hell your going through now..

But in the end everyone has to take this road in one shape, form or fashion.. Others get it quicker than some.. Mind you I was in the same boat as you.. I didn't listen either.. It was very hard for me too.. 

Good luck on your journey..


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Word


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## verify (Jun 30, 2013)

* Chaparral *
I’ve finished reading the 2 books that you recommended.
I enjoyed them both. Thank you.

The MMSLP (Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011) made me realise something interesting:
While going through counselling, my wife told me what I needed to change in order to make her happy (i.e. the things that I was doing wrong, that drove her to seek the attention of another man):
I wasn’t going on holiday with her & our children
I wasn’t going out for meals etc. with them
I wasn’t taking joint responsibility for the children (school-run etc.)
I wasn’t listening to her or valuing her opinions etc.
I wasn’t showing her enough attention (displays of affection etc.)
I wasn’t calling/texting throughout the day (while at work etc.)
etc. etc. etc.

After reading MMSLP, I realised that all these things are Beta traits.
Yet … I now realise that what she wanted from the Other Man are Alpha traits.
i.e. She didn’t want him to hold her hand & tell her that she looks nice in that dress … she wanted him to slam her down on the table, rip her clothes off & make mad passionate love to her.
She didn’t want him to take her & the kids to the park & play ball with them, she wanted him to take her out – drinking & dancing & humping.
i.e. Alpha traits

So; Now that I’ve become the Beta Man – I’m further away from being the man that she really wants.

Would you agree?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

IMO - women today don't tell you what they really want, at least based on MMSLP. They say they want Beta, but in reality from a sexual point of view they really want more Alpha. In a spouse, they really want a healthy mix. Too beta, you get no sex and a lot of chores, too alpha and you are not a provider.

Probably get bombed on by some, but this is true in my relationship. I used to be way too beta.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I think it is a multi-pronged issue.

Women want, and need, a man who is stable and a good provider. It comes from evolution. Women want their children to have the best chance of surviving to adulthood, which means they need a good strong provider and protector who will be stable and a good parent.

But, at the same time women have primal sexual needs for a mate who is physically dominant. She wants her children to have good dna.

Society has screwed all this up. Boys are now socialized to be Nice. They are taught to be respectful of girls. They are taught by a feminized mass media that it is wrong to think sexually of women. Somehow it is offensive to women to be thought of as sexual, instead we should respect them for being intellectual and artistic. Girls are taught that sex is dirty, and guys who want to get in their pants are bad. So girls assume that a meek Nice Guy is her best choice for a husband. But a Bad Boy is just the ticket when she has no plans for marriage.

Somewhere was lost the idea that a man can be both a good stable provider and be an alpha personality type. Somewhere was lost the idea that a woman can be a sexual being and smart and creative.

Thus women tend to look for husbands who are more on the beta side of behavior. Those men have had their alpha socialized out of them. But the women still respond sexually to alpha types of behaviors.

Which men have alpha types of behavior? Many very successful men. But also a lot of Bad Boys who are not really alpha but mimic the traits with their risky and confident behaviors.

And thus the married woman who finds herself drawn to a Bad Boy affair partner because her Nice husband only fills half of her needs. The WW is mesmerized by his sexuality and confidence. _She has no need for her Bad Boy AP to do domestic family activities with her, because her husband is home doing those already._

A man who has his act together can be both domestically stable and have alpha traits. He can parent the children, he can help with chores around the house, but he can also flirt with his wife and he can be sexually alpha with her. If he is Integrated, neither Nice nor Jerk (Bad Boy), she will have all of her buttons pushed.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Thor - I like your take on societal influence in all this. Just look around at how boys want to play and the rules they have to adhere to at school.... the games they play are almost always military like, but bite your sandwich wrong and point out it looks like a gun and you get to stay home for several days.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

verify said:


> * Chaparral *
> I’ve finished reading the 2 books that you recommended.
> I enjoyed them both. Thank you.
> 
> ...



I don't see anything in your list as inherently beta. As a matter of fact, for example, I think a man that doesn't go on holiday with his family is foolish. Its a time to bond with his wife and kids and do man things for them. A mans number one function is to protect his wife, first and kids second. That concept is thousands of years old.

An example would be if my wife said she was going to Vegas with girl friends. I would smile and tell her that's fine. I will rent a stoage space to put your things in while you're gone.

A man has to have some traits of both, but I don't see anything on you list as being beta unless its done weakly and in a need manner.

As has been mentioned, society has been taken over by folks with an agenda and no common sense.

Check out a woman on youtube named Karen Straugan. If hats misspelled pm me and I will send you a link. I'm limited by my tablet here.

Good job reading mmslp.


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## verify (Jun 30, 2013)

Thanks guys.




naiveonedave said:


> ... I used to be way too beta.


Any tips on adding _Alpha_ to the new _Beta_ me (without returning to the insensitive, “_abusive_" old me) would be much appreciated.

.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Is your wife completely transparent with her phone, texts, emails etc. now?


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## verify (Jun 30, 2013)

Yes, *Chaparral*, she is.

Also making an effort in other ways too.

Not sure why. She says "I've learned my lesson" ... whatever that means.

The only thing I can think of is of is that;
When I left home, a few months ago, & ignored her phone calls & messages, she realised that I was serious & that she wouldn't be better off without me (despite her friends telling her that she would).
Plus:
She accidentally found that I had made a list of local Bed & Breakfast places that I could go to at the drop of a hat.
i.e. I was ready to leave.


.


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