# Death spiral



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This has nothing to do with my other thread. Just curious about something. 

I have read quite a few posts here by men whose sexual relationships have become very bad. I noticed that a fair number say that for a long time their W's have either:
- Refused to "kiss" them sexually and/or
- Tell them - lets hurry up, or lets hurry and get this over with

I am just curious, how common is that type behavior? I only ask because there is no way I would have been willing to continue a sexual relationship with my W had she done EITHER of those things. What I mean is that I would have forced a resolution. Either we get to the point where she WANTS me to kiss her and WANTS sex to be a nice, lengthy experience or we just don't have sex anymore. 

BTW - the occasional quickie is fine. Female contribution to this post is welcome. I will however have a highly allergic reaction to anyone who says that maybe some of these women are too busy/too tired to spend 30 minutes to an hour having sex a few times a week. This isn't about fatigue. This is about:
- Not really liking the experience and wanting to make it quick as possible
- Wanting your partner to know you don't really like it or
- Wanting your partner to know you really don't care about how they feel

I read a lot of stuff about "sexually degrading" things that men do to their female partners. And as a man I cringe when I read them. That said I would consider it sexually degrading to ME, if my W were to do either of the things described above.

But hey - I also blame any male who tolerates this. Because it sure sounds like this is more of a "jerking off into your partner" than connecting with them type thing. 

Interested in what others think.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

You frightened me, I thought you were literally being fuuuuked to death. You're OK? Good. I won't make any jokes, just glad you neural circuitry is still working well enough to have cogent thought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Luckily I've never experienced this. We've been pretty compatible up until the last year or so (about 20 years together total). And at this point - for whatever reason - I've become the "lower drive" spouse while her drive has increased.

Now - about 10 years ago she went through a phase where she suddenly became "unsure" about giving BJs. May have just been a test. Don't remember it too well, but I don't think it lasted longer than a couple of weeks.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

I agree it's not about connecting at all. However what are these men doing to connect with their wives? If a woman feels so unconnected and off put by sex that she is saying those things, she is obviously not feeling any sexual attraction. And you are right MEM men should not put up with it. 
It is doormat behaviour which women do not find attractive and which I guess helps repeat the cycle and makes her less attracted to her man.

I find some of these men (not all) when I read about them have been very selfish in many ways, not paying attention to their wives needs, and then wonder how it gets to that. They focus on trying to force their wives to change rather then change themselves. They also act like a door mat in other ways, allowing her to belittle them. This is not sexy.

Women should not belittle men, they don't feel like real men and you don't find them attractive, and men shouldn't allow it to happen.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The "test" of my endurance ended 10 minutes ago. Apparently I "passed". She is back to normal - very loving. Somehow she has concluded "she" was part of the problem. Deep sigh of relief. 

She gave me the choice to "opt out" tonight. I did not take it. 

I told her the last 5 days have been incredibly educational.



Catherine602 said:


> You frightened me, I thought you were literally being fuuuuked to death. You're OK? Good. I won't make any jokes, just glad you neural circuitry is still working well enough to have cogent thought.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Honestly, there are times in life when a woman is too tired and/or has given so much of herself that she just wants her body for herself. I felt this way when my children were infants--and I've heard others say the same. All of us were breastfeeding. And sometimes (with preemies, for example), the "newborn stage" last MONTHS. It is sooooo exhausting. So, a guy keeps pushing for sex after the magic "medical" 6 weeks is up (the 6 weeks the doc says to wait to have sex after giving birth). So here you are, totally sleep deprived and no end to this in sight--no more than 40 minutes of sleep at a shot, night after night. I think this may be the time that the "turn off" begins to happen. And h pretty much never stirred, never woke up when the baby cried--he could sleep through a tornado (literally, he did once; I had to wake him to get to safety).

I had never had sleep issues until having babies and, my god, is it horrible. Sleep deprivation is a form of torture, after all. But I was so resentful that my h would want to take 1 minute of my precious sleep even after I had explained it. Maybe it was just my age (31 at the time) or the fact that I had preemies. But frankly, it seemed downright cruel to me. 

I'd encourage anyone who doesn't get that to start setting an alarm to wake you after 40 minutes, get up for 40, go back to bed for 40, and repeat--for 3 months. See what you feel like. I'm not exaggerating, either. Trust me, I was watching that damn clock every second, trying to see SOME progress in my baby learning to go longer without sleep. For the record, I do NOT watch a clock, ever, when sleeping anymore. Nothing is MORE likely to interfere with my sleep and if I don't know how little I'm getting, it does not seem to bother me as much--but then, we're talking about a difference somewhere between 7.5 to 9 hours now, so maybe it really doesn't matter. 

Maybe the resentment from those very difficult weeks doesn't totally go away--what the woman perceives as sheer selfishness on his part. So, the next time she is *not* interested, and he pushes or acts all put out (when sex has otherwise gotten back to normal), it just rings that bell in her--so the resentment grows a bit--and then, the next time. In other words, if he reacts negatively to her occasional refusals, it adds to her resentment which means the refusals will slowly become more frequent. Remember, too, that she may be having sex when she really does not feel like it--again, the infant/small child stage, when women are likely to be losing a LOT of sleep. (I didn't get a full night of uninterrupted sleep more than 1-2 times a week until each of my kids reached 4--that is a lot of nights of poor sleep.) So, between never getting enough sleep, having sex when you really just want to sleep, having your partner act like a spoiled brat about it rather than doing something to help (even though you've asked, b/c remember, he "has to get up and go to work. . .")

I instituted "mom's night o'sleep" with my 2nd child in an attempt to forestall the cycle. I was supposed to sleep in a different room with a loud fan on, 1x/week or every 10 days. My h complained so much about his poor sleep those occasional nights that I gave up. And yep, the cycle repeated itself. Yes, my age and the fact that both our kids were teeny preemies who had extremely high needs were, perhaps, unusual. But, moms lose a LOT of sleep when kids are small. So, please do not write off the "too tired" part--at least if there is a small child in the house. Helping her GET good sleep on a regular basis would be a much better plan. 

I had no doubt in my mind that I'd choose sleep over sex, that's how sleep-deprived I was. And again, please don't judge unless you've experienced serious sleep deprivation, or think I didn't love sex. Yes, I did--but sleep became a lot more important. And I'm pretty sure my resentment started growing then. That wasn't the only issue, of course, but it sure as hell didn't HELP anything!


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> - Refused to "kiss" them sexually and/or
> - Tell them - lets hurry up, or lets hurry and get this over with
> 
> ...she WANTS me to kiss her and WANTS sex to be a nice, lengthy experience or we just don't have sex anymore.
> ...


Not sure about kissing, but, back when I was still talking to my wife, she was "too tired" for anything beyond brief sex during the week... She actually suggested the "let's be quick" thing. On edit I didn't take that offer, which was that we could do quickies on school nights and take our time on the weekend. Not really what I was looking for, but.

This wasn't a "death spiral" because it was more or less true. Frequency didn't decline, the sex didn't get worse, etc.. It is usually very, very easy for her to get off. When she was "too tired" she was--she'd be asleep at 9. Likewise my wife would usually get very sore after more than ten or fifteen minutes, but sometimes it takes a while...

Neither of us was interested in sex more than once or twice a week though. I would 'try' sometimes but it was usually more about boredom or restlessness. She said that with her live-in ex they would have sex once a month.



> I will however have a highly allergic reaction to anyone who says that maybe some of these women are too busy/too tired to spend 30 minutes to an hour having sex a few times a week. This isn't about fatigue. This is about:
> - Not really liking the experience and wanting to make it quick as possible
> - Wanting your partner to know you don't really like it or
> - Wanting your partner to know you really don't care about how they feel
> ...


I actually feel this way, but there is another side to it. I mean that if my wife can't stay up past 9 P.M. she is "too tired", and if she is having blood sugar issues when she gets home she needs to eat. But that still leaves about ninety minutes or so that *don't* have to be spent watching TV, but to use your metaphors daily stresses from life (not necessarily the marriage), etc., can lead to "too much heat" and brain-dead crap like watching old Law & Order episodes can let some of that stress off.

I want to say I agree that brain dead stress relief isn't as good as sex for getting rid of that stress, but to be honest there are times when I'd rather just lie down for half an hour than have sex.


All that said I still think that it shows a lack of consideration.


On edit "too tired" might mean "too tired" but "too tired hurry up and be quick" sounds like a test.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

I would have to say this is a good point, Sister. Sometimes we don't understand what you, as women, are going through during those early child upbringing days. Definitely a point for learning.

Myself, my wife said all those things MEM mentioned. Its true half the blame is on 'us'. In my instance, it was me withdrawing via depression. And as mean as it may sound, who the heck would naturally be attracted to someone in a constant depressed mood.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Two thoughts:

1. Sisters describes the children death knell - exhaustion, changing of priorities... For me it was I moved into provider role after being a pretty useless provider in our early years, she moved into the mother role. That didn't help things.

But probably the bigger thing is just lack of self-awareness. Prior to our separations (that have ended up being a bit of reset button) I just figured things would get better when the kids got older. I was just stupid and uninformed about the dynamic between men/women. We were also enmeshed and codependent, which sucks away passion. I'd accept "forever" and so took what I could get because some sex was better than no sex.

It wasn't until I was dating and had actually learn about women, that I adopted a firm position of not being willing to be controlled by sex. Turns out that is a better life strategy. Go figure.

Not sure if that answers things.

2. I don't really know your back story. You're here and very wise and respected. But why are you here? Were you always in control of yourself and relationships, or did something catalyze that?


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I don't know if it's just having kids--I wonder if it makes a difference if the babies are easier (learning to sleep 5-6 hours in a row by 2-3 months, for example, a "joy" I never got to experience). I don't know. I posted b/c for me, sleep deprivation is a TOTAL libido killer--and real sleep deprivation is different from being physically tired or an occasional poor night's sleep. Those things won't affect my libido much. 

Man, the couple of times I did have "mom's night o'sleep" were heaven! I remember thinking, ah, this time, the infancy stage will be different. One good night of sleep every 7-10 days seemed to really help. But the experiment didn't continue, so I'll never know!


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

On the sleep deprivation thing, I think a good and decent man will do his share with the kids make sure that you are getting sleep too when he can and make allowances for extra tiredness and less sex when children are very young. Children demand so much time from parents it is exhausting, and while you both may get less sex, you will get more than other men if you are good to your wife and try and make sure her needs are met too.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I personally never had the sleep deprivation thing with any of my 6 babies, never felt worn out by night time diaper changes, bottle feeding (for those who breast-fed, your prolactin levels soared & this also lowerd your sex drive Breastfeeding and Low Sex Drive - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com ).

I have always been a ball of energy, I never expected him to get up either in the middle of the night, back then our energy levels was probably about the same. But generally I have always needed less sleep than my husband. I also could never wait for the 6 week period to resume sex, I always remember feeling I can't wait & we did it weeks earlier, once getting pregnant (had 2 babies within 11 months of each other). 

I was not one to "not wake" them or worry about noise during the day either, I recall other parents saying "Sshhhhh you don't want to wake the baby" and I used to think "are you crazy", they got used to the noise & running when Mom needed to run. And they slept better at night too. 

I also never did any of this :

- Not really liking the experience and wanting to make it quick as possible
- Wanting your partner to know you don't really like it or
- Wanting your partner to know you really don't care about how they feel

My husband would have loved 3 or more times a week (back then), but he let my books & babies inbetween us (in bed) interfere with aggressively "taking me". He needed some indication I was "wanting" him in return (removing the baby, a kiss, my hand reaching below) or too often he just rolled over-thankfully not always, I do recall some nights he was after me, starting with a back scratch that went well beyond. 

A shame really, as once he got me going, I was ALWAYS into it, loving it, most pleasurable moments in our life. By the time we got around to love making, we were both "starving".

Now a days, we don't even let the hunger build. It may not feel as intensely HOT as it did when we were starving, but it sure lasts longer & we love the connection.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Some people see themselves as parents first and spouses second. My wife has always put our marriage at or near the bottom in terms of priorities. Being a Hover-Mom has been at the top. "Children" first even though my youngest is almost 20. Still they need to be mothered and smothered. I will tell you our first was very very colicky and cried about 18 hrs a day for the first 10 months. The next one was a good calm sleepy baby and third was somewhere in the middle. But we were so burned out by then that my wife insisted, that #3 sleep in our bed. And he kind of never left. He was still sleeping there at age 9. Of course I wasn't but he was. In the middle of all of that we lost a fourth child and both of us at various times were cancer patients. So all I can suggest is rest when you can. Bad things can happen.


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## LonelyNLost (Dec 11, 2010)

I agree that that's not the best approach as a woman, and lots of women don't understand the point you're making MEM. I, personally, don't do those things and never have. I see sex as a way to connect, as does my H. So much so, that right now we are about to separate, and I just want some kind of connection, and he'd rather go jerk off.  

However, there is a flip side. Lots of women feel connection in other ways. They need to feel connected in order to have sex, but men need to have sex to feel connected. It's a catch 22. Sort of like when we want conversation, and our men say, "Can we make this quick?" or give you barely anything of importance while trying to conversate. 

Just saying. It's a two way street. I think there's two sides, but the main explanation being that men and women are very different creatures.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I would not have a problem with "Can we hurry this up" as long as she's not bored and she's reasonably competent at it. Quick is one thing, lackadaisical is another. If she just wanted to be 'serviced' though, then who really cares either way.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

In my experience what I "give" him in sex I process in two ways. There is the idea that he has made ME feel a certain way and I want to return the favor, make it extra god for him. The other way is that a good part of my own sexual turn on is the ability to make is leg wag like a dog and force HIM (usually very quiet) to stick a pillow over HIS face to muffle the sound. That second is more for my benefit than his actually as I LOVE that kind of turn on.

I don't have much experience with low sex drive, as for me, sex feels good and if you have an itch, scratch it (that works in the masturbation discussion just as well). I will admit that there are times when it is not that I am interested, it is that I am torn between providing my own pleasure vs not really wanting to provide for his (which usually ends up me getting mine, and in turn him getting his, but like I said, I have NO hang ups with sex and can almost ALWAYS enjoy it) There are also time when sure, I am not entirely in the mood or maybe angry or hurt, but I usually will still give him his, simply because I know what security it offers him, and if I am craving my own security I get in my head that if I give it to him, he will return the favor (HAHA ya, silly me)

Now, get your cortizone ready, because YES there are actually times when exhaustion or sickness or just plain mental state will not allow me to get in the mood. Very few and far between moments, but they exist. Had a wisdom tooth issue that would come and go for years that just physically did not allow me to give a certain thing in bed, will let you guess what. There are a few days a month where he can say "I don't care about the mess, lets do it anyway" and runs in with a towel and I am like "sorry no, I don't want to gross myself out during sex you dolt!" but if he bugs enough, like with a child, sometimes there is that thought of "Dammit I really need to sleep or get something done, will a quickie shut him up?" But I try not to voice that one, unless a bit of sarcastic humor will be taken well and not turn him limp. Yes there are times when a man can laugh at that comment.

So essentially, I do not get a woman who won't put out. Unless the man is an undeniable bastard/jerk/a-hole, why would you NOT want to give him what he needs to feel loved and secure, or just plain happy? I don't understand a person not being able to get a sense of satisfaction for themself, simply by being the one to put a smile on the other's face.

Maybe that's why sex has never been the problem in any of my relationships. at least not lasting (once... puppy.. replacement...and yes I still hate that stoopid dog) but was able to get back 80% of what the stupid mutt took. The last 20% has to do with dog hair, dog stink, dirty bed sheets and dammit, that WILL kill the mood for me! (it's GROSS boys, if you have a dog and MUST have him in your bed when she is not... make sure he is NOT in the bed when she IS and for god's sake! Learn to change the sheets before she IS in the bed! Stinky dog is NOT a turn on cologne!!


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Mem,

My experience has been as follows. We meet and date for about a year. During this time W is very active, into trying all sorts of things and very affectionate. Since this is what I need I get hooked. W moves in and things are still good. Get married and have 2 kids. By the time my second child was born. Everything already dried up. Nice guy emerges and spends the next 8 years trying to get back what we had to no avail. If it were left up to her the sex definitely would have stopped. I made it clear that I would not put up with that. During this time is was simply her tolerating it, also several times tried to stop oral as well, but i complained also so it happened but rarely. Brings us to present day. Things started to dry up even more, no affection, no kisses (never refused, but no effort) W began hanging out with friends more and as I tried to get closer it would push her away more. So now I am manning up, I'll be quite honest now that my head is starting to clear I am uncertain where we stand. I've been doing for myself and taking the lead on things. W says she loves me, but I don't feel the same enthusiasm anymore towards the relationship. Could be bitter, but also think it is because that for 8+ years I didn't have what need. Not rushing to any judgement here as I see how things play out.


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## kirby32 (Feb 21, 2011)

We've never had a problem with kissing, but I have gotten the "fine, lets get it over with" plenty of times. To me this is different from a quickie. In a quickie there is desire both ways, just not a lot of time.

My problem with all of her excuses for "not tonight" or "hurry up" were that she would spend 2-3 hours watching TV or surfing FB, yet the second sex was brought up she would be too tired.

The last time she did this was right before my manning up started. I haven't let her get away with it since. Good sex or no sex.

We were pretty good in taking care of the kids when they were babies. We have slightly different sleep schedules anyway, so she would go to bed at 9-10 and I would take care of any issues before 2am. After that it was her turn for feedings or if they woke.

With our second child I definately was the one with the sleep issue. He would wake up about midnight every night and be wide awake for an hour or more. Most nights before he turned 1 ended up with us sleeping in the recliner all night. I always say I barely made it through that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sis,
Preemies + a partner who is not helping you sleep, gets hacked when you sleep elsewhere and expects a lot of sex is a recipe for divorce. Your situation is not what I was referring to. 




sisters359 said:


> Honestly, there are times in life when a woman is too tired and/or has given so much of herself that she just wants her body for herself. I felt this way when my children were infants--and I've heard others say the same. All of us were breastfeeding. And sometimes (with preemies, for example), the "newborn stage" last MONTHS. It is sooooo exhausting. So, a guy keeps pushing for sex after the magic "medical" 6 weeks is up (the 6 weeks the doc says to wait to have sex after giving birth). So here you are, totally sleep deprived and no end to this in sight--no more than 40 minutes of sleep at a shot, night after night. I think this may be the time that the "turn off" begins to happen. And h pretty much never stirred, never woke up when the baby cried--he could sleep through a tornado (literally, he did once; I had to wake him to get to safety).
> 
> I had never had sleep issues until having babies and, my god, is it horrible. Sleep deprivation is a form of torture, after all. But I was so resentful that my h would want to take 1 minute of my precious sleep even after I had explained it. Maybe it was just my age (31 at the time) or the fact that I had preemies. But frankly, it seemed downright cruel to me.
> 
> ...


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I also have to wonder if kids are nature's way of telling a woman, "it is time to move on." Contrary to popular belief, women's best bet in passing on her genetic material wasn't in finding a single man to "provide" for her and the kids (in the pre-historic world, it took a group). It was in making sure she bore children with a diversity of genetic structures so that some, at least, would survive. So maybe the post-child sex decline meant the caveman moved on and cave woman moved on, too, when she was ready to breed again (ie, when her libido kicked in again). Just a thought.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*a very sane question*

SS,
The first 15 years of our marriage were good because we had great alignment on time and money and good alignment sexually. 

I had no idea what a fitness test was but my innate ability to manage conflict kept me from turning into a bully or a eunuch. We did have a lot of conflict about stupid things during that period. But in between the conflict we had a great time together. 

In the last 5-6 years we have gotten better at using playful friction to amplify the marriage, the passion and the fun. And I have gotten much, much better at seeing fitness tests as an opportunity to show strength, self control, problem solving skills and humor. 

I do learn a lot here which is part of the reason for my presence. And I hope to sometimes be helpful. I am keenly aware that I can be tiresome at times. 



seeking sanity said:


> Two thoughts:
> 
> 1. Sisters describes the children death knell - exhaustion, changing of priorities... For me it was I moved into provider role after being a pretty useless provider in our early years, she moved into the mother role. That didn't help things.
> 
> ...


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Mem, I know it wasn't specifically what you meant--but, the connection is, lots of men are very insensitive during this stage and the seeds of resentment are planted. They do not understand that the sleep deprivation is not only a libido-killer, but also, sleep really IS a higher imperative than sex when there is such sleep deprivation. So many of the stories about the decline of sex begin with this, "then came the kids, and sex stopped. . ." Clearly couples don't navigate this well. I think it is a much bigger part of the story than many realize. 

Pattern: sex declines b/c of this stage. Men take it personally and try to "earn back" sex. Guy doing nice things thinks he should get sex; sleep-deprived wife is thinking, "omg, I'm losing sleep!!" Spiral accelerates. By the time she is getting better sleep, she is both resentful and much less attracted; he's confused and desperate--so more desperate, "sex-earning behavior." That makes him LESS attractive . . .


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

WS,
Really good post. Pretty funny actually. 

My initial post is not a "ding" on women - even those who do this. At is a "ding" on two people who are sending each other some VERY scary messages. 

I think it is perfectly fine to say "I am dead tired" when it is true. And to add "I know it has been a while - but a quickie is probably best tonight"

I am instead talking about a situation where your partner has several hours a day of discretionary time, and yet when it comes to sex they want to "get it over with". And/or they don't want to kiss you. 

I just think when that pattern BEGINS the person hearing that message needs to address it constructively or they will end up sexless. Because otherwise the subtext is:
Person 1: I really don't like sexual intimacy with you
Person 2: I need to come, so I will just rub myself around you / inside you - even if you don't like it. And I will pretend that you really are ok with that





woodstock said:


> In my experience what I "give" him in sex I process in two ways. There is the idea that he has made ME feel a certain way and I want to return the favor, make it extra god for him. The other way is that a good part of my own sexual turn on is the ability to make is leg wag like a dog and force HIM (usually very quiet) to stick a pillow over HIS face to muffle the sound. That second is more for my benefit than his actually as I LOVE that kind of turn on.
> 
> I don't have much experience with low sex drive, as for me, sex feels good and if you have an itch, scratch it (that works in the masturbation discussion just as well). I will admit that there are times when it is not that I am interested, it is that I am torn between providing my own pleasure vs not really wanting to provide for his (which usually ends up me getting mine, and in turn him getting his, but like I said, I have NO hang ups with sex and can almost ALWAYS enjoy it) There are also time when sure, I am not entirely in the mood or maybe angry or hurt, but I usually will still give him his, simply because I know what security it offers him, and if I am craving my own security I get in my head that if I give it to him, he will return the favor (HAHA ya, silly me)
> 
> ...


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

MEM.. Ya, I don't understand people getting to that all! Most likely because I like sex because it is FUN, not just because I need it (emotionally I can get everything I do need from other things). Also, I am the type that will more often think of the other first and therefore will give sex when i know he needs it.

I do know people who won't give it, or will "quickie" the fun away and no matter how much they explain it, or what the say about it, they come off sounding both selfish, and completely unaware of their own bodies with serious issues about sex (not to mention how much flippin fun it can be!!!) When women have told me they never give it up to their husbands then laugh or giggle about it, my first reaction is to smack them upside the head LOL THEN maybe ask if they self serve. More often than not, they say no, then I just figure... well damn, no wonder, you have yet to figure out how to pleasure yourself, so then how can you teach your man to do it... Sex is supposed to be FUN!!!! You can have NO sex drive AT all, but if you have a FUN drive... well then you can have sex and enjoy it!!!!!!!!!! Why would you want to cut short your fun time? I don't get it


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sis,
The post below sounds unbalanced to me. 

Subtract the "jerky" guys - and I will give you my take on what happens to the guys who are just not good at conflict. 

Babies come. Not preemies - babies. Sleep schedule is disrupted. H helps. Mom is tired for a few months and then schedules begin to resume. Except for one big change, and that is Mom has less desire (hormones?) AND compounding that, she is busier with the baby. So certain things need to get subtracted from the schedule. Hey - sex isn't that big a deal - since I am not feeling that much desire. Lets cut that out - saves 3-5 hours a week. Not saying this is conscious. 

In the meantime this young, high drive guy is slowly losing his mind. And he has no idea what to do. He isn't good at conflict and she just shuts him down when he brings it up. And that "shut down" actually effects HER feelings for him as much or more than his for her. Because when he lets that happen, the message basically is that it is ok for her to largely ignore his number one need. BTW - sex might not normally be his highest need, but deprived of it - it becomes number 1. 

That pattern seems very common from what I read. Maybe I am wrong but the "average" guy is not likely to say "I will make sure you get enough sleep so you aren't sleep deprived. I get that your drive is low, so I need you to do two things:
- Relax enough to LET me get you in the mood when you start out in neutral AND
- Teach me how to get you in the mood when you start out in neutral

As for sleep - when you are deprived it IS your number one priority and it should be. Emotionally - for a guy - especially a young guy - sex is the same. 




sisters359 said:


> Mem, I know it wasn't specifically what you meant--but, the connection is, lots of men are very insensitive during this stage and the seeds of resentment are planted. They do not understand that the sleep deprivation is not only a libido-killer, but also, sleep really IS a higher imperative than sex when there is such sleep deprivation. So many of the stories about the decline of sex begin with this, "then came the kids, and sex stopped. . ." Clearly couples don't navigate this well. I think it is a much bigger part of the story than many realize.
> 
> Pattern: sex declines b/c of this stage. Men take it personally and try to "earn back" sex. Guy doing nice things thinks he should get sex; sleep-deprived wife is thinking, "omg, I'm losing sleep!!" Spiral accelerates. By the time she is getting better sleep, she is both resentful and much less attracted; he's confused and desperate--so more desperate, "sex-earning behavior." That makes him LESS attractive . . .


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Mem,

I have to agree with your assesment. I was in no way jerky. I was very supportive of my W at the time. I did never pressure her during those times. I saw how much work it was and was very sympathetic. When things began to normalize nothing returned as before. I will take most of the blame for not asking for my needs in a direct way. Instead I used passive agressive comments and what I thought was good behavior to support her, which I now know is a death spirial. The question now is has the death already occurred. I will have to wait until I am where I want to be and then evaluate the situation. I will say one of my biggest frustrations is with my W downplaying my needs and just laughing it off cause all of her friends say the same.





MEM11363 said:


> Sis,
> The post below sounds unbalanced to me.
> 
> Subtract the "jerky" guys - and I will give you my take on what happens to the guys who are just not good at conflict.
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

As if.....Well you gotta hand it to the ladies to be completely indifferent of the stresses a new father is enduring. Someone should put that one in rule book.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I agree that most people--not just men--aren't prepared by life experience to see the need to say these kinds of things. 



> That pattern seems very common from what I read. Maybe I am wrong but the "average" guy is not likely to say "I will make sure you get enough sleep so you aren't sleep deprived. I get that your drive is low, so I need you to do two things:
> - Relax enough to LET me get you in the mood when you start out in neutral AND
> - Teach me how to get you in the mood when you start out in neutral


If the first few months don't go well, she isn't in neutral--I guess that's what I'm adding/pointing out. More common than one might think, I suspect, from what I hear, too.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bill,
How does your W treat you "outside" the bedroom? Does she treat you with respect or speak to you like you are a "sitcom" husband? Sitcom husbands get treated like they are not very smart or capable and because they project a totally "beta" posture there isn't what I call the "healthy fear" that creates balance in a marriage. And I do NOT mean physical fear. 

My W knows I am committed. And stable. And and and. She ALSO knows that when I insert some edge in my voice and ask her "Why would you think THAT is ok"? I fully expect either a very solid answer OR a sincere apology. And she knows - based on past experience that it is SO hard to "avoid" doing one or the other that she responds to that question in a fair manner. 

But then I am not inclined to get "angry/sullen" as that is just punishing myself for her bad behavior. I just become less accommodating. 

Read my post on the "thermostat" and see what you think.



bill2011 said:


> Mem,
> 
> I have to agree with your assesment. I was in no way jerky. I was very supportive of my W at the time. I did never pressure her during those times. I saw how much work it was and was very sympathetic. When things began to normalize nothing returned as before. I will take most of the blame for not asking for my needs in a direct way. Instead I used passive agressive comments and what I thought was good behavior to support her, which I now know is a death spirial. The question now is has the death already occurred. I will have to wait until I am where I want to be and then evaluate the situation. I will say one of my biggest frustrations is with my W downplaying my needs and just laughing it off cause all of her friends say the same.
> 
> ...


----------



## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Runs like Dog said:


> As if.....Well you gotta hand it to the ladies to be completely indifferent of the stresses a new father is enduring. Someone should put that one in rule book.


This is a good example of a passive-aggressive response. It's the kind of thing a guy says and his wife is likely to think, "What? We have equal emotional burdens but my body and sleep are aliens to me. How can he possibly imagine that we are having the same experience?" 

Now, he can say, "I know you are really sleep-deprived and maybe totally frustrated by the way your body has changed. Are you also feeling really vulnerable? I know I am b/c I love this little guy/girl so much and feel so much could be lost if I screw up."

Or, she can say (if he starts with the p-a line), "You sound really frustrated. What's on your mind?" 

But, in real life, most of us aren't that good at communicating, are we?


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Mem,

Outside the bedroom isn't that bad, very rarely directs her anger at me. My W is a hot head with very little patience. I am the one who is calm. I have failed most of the tests simply because of conflict avoidance. I think women also forget that have a child or children puts a huge amount of responsibilty on the men too. Career choices that have been made since are more driven by stability rather than aspirations. Also at the time it was all on me to find a way to get us a bigger home and such. I always wanted to be a father and adore every moment of it, however I had no intention of losing my lover in the process and wound up with a best friend.




MEM11363 said:


> Bill,
> How does your W treat you "outside" the bedroom? Does she treat you with respect or speak to you like you are a "sitcom" husband? Sitcom husbands get treated like they are not very smart or capable and because they project a totally "beta" posture there isn't what I call the "healthy fear" that creates balance in a marriage. And I do NOT mean physical fear.
> 
> My W knows I am committed. And stable. And and and. She ALSO knows that when I insert some edge in my voice and ask her "Why would you think THAT is ok"? I fully expect either a very solid answer OR a sincere apology. And she knows - based on past experience that it is SO hard to "avoid" doing one or the other that she responds to that question in a fair manner.
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bill,
How long married? How many kids? How old are you two? How much of her anger goes at the kids?

Are you the primary breadwinner or the sole breadwinner?




bill2011 said:


> Mem,
> 
> Outside the bedroom isn't that bad, very rarely directs her anger at me. My W is a hot head with very little patience. I am the one who is calm. I have failed most of the tests simply because of conflict avoidance. I think women also forget that have a child or children puts a huge amount of responsibilty on the men too. Career choices that have been made since are more driven by stability rather than aspirations. Also at the time it was all on me to find a way to get us a bigger home and such. I always wanted to be a father and adore every moment of it, however I had no intention of losing my lover in the process and wound up with a best friend.
> 
> ...


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

After first adding the disclaimer that a guy should work hard to evolve with the relationship, stay close, and keep the edge, I couldn't see how one could accept a relationship that wasn't meeting the sexual needs. The simple fact is that my wife is very practical, and has a high drive of her own. She trusts me completely, but she always says that there is only one way to keep a guy happy and faithful, and it ain't in the kitchen. I joke with her and try to say that is sexist, but she says guys are simple, and can only think about one thing at a time, and it's usually that.

Sadly, she always had low self esteem, while I was one of those alpha types, yet quiet. It took a lot of conscious effort on my part to convince her that I only see her in a crowded room.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

I'm 39 and W is 36, we are coming up on 11 years married. Our children are 8 and 10
I am the sole provider. Most of my W anger is towards the children. She feels like they don't listen to her. They listen to me better because I do not argue with them. I will act accordingly. My W will got back and forth and then nag them to death to a point where they tune her out. I used to ignore her as well. But now I step in when neccesary



MEM11363 said:


> Bill,
> How long married? How many kids? How old are you two? How much of her anger goes at the kids?
> 
> Are you the primary breadwinner or the sole breadwinner?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kirby32 (Feb 21, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> As if.....Well you gotta hand it to the ladies to be completely indifferent of the stresses a new father is enduring. Someone should put that one in rule book.


This is a point I have discussed with several other guys. One thing about pregnancy is since guys aren't the one having a baby they are assumed to need no support or encouragement.

During pregnancy, delivery, and after I was frequently asked about how my wife and kids were doing. The nurses at the hospital and my parents were the only ones who ever asked or seemed to care how I was doing.

I also found that complaining about wife or baby to most people gets a negative response. Pregnant women especially get a free pass for almost anything.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bill,
There is NO greater opportunity to demonstrate leadership, self control AND love for your family than by ACTIVELY parenting your kids WITH your W. This is a mix of positive and discipline. The positive can be stimulating great dinner time conversation by asking the kids tough - but age appropriate questions and teaching them how to think about stuff. 

As for discipline. My W used to fight with our daughter about every other week on Sunday mornings. It was all about how our daughter would "dress" for church. I pressed them to select, and agree on attire Saturday. They now do that and everyone is happy. And if they "fight" on Saturday, my daughter knows that before she can blink I am standing next to my W and if daughter is being rude in tone she immediately loses the battle. If she is being respectful but does not "agree" on what to wear, I help them resolve constructively. And guess what "that item is in the laundry" is no longer a game daughter can play. Because she knows that if she says that I just raise an eyebrow and shrug. This is the "wash it if you want to wear it so bad" look. She gets it. 

This also means that if there are areas your W is not being reasonable you address that with her 1-on-1 BEFORE you talk with the kids. 

Bill - I believe that your W does not direct "anger" at you. I was asking a different question. Is she "really" respectful to you? If she is "laughing at" a core need of yours, I find it a bit surprising that she would be respectful in every other way. 

An absence of anger does not equal respect. 

Sorry to ask but - are you in the same shape today you were when you got married?



bill2011 said:


> I'm 39 and W is 36, we are coming up on 11 years married. Our children are 8 and 10
> I am the sole provider. Most of my W anger is towards the children. She feels like they don't listen to her. They listen to me better because I do not argue with them. I will act accordingly. My W will got back and forth and then nag them to death to a point where they tune her out. I used to ignore her as well. But now I step in when neccesary
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yep.



Halien said:


> After first adding the disclaimer that a guy should work hard to evolve with the relationship, stay close, and keep the edge, I couldn't see how one could accept a relationship that wasn't meeting the sexual needs. The simple fact is that my wife is very practical, and has a high drive of her own. She trusts me completely, but she always says that there is only one way to keep a guy happy and faithful, and it ain't in the kitchen. I joke with her and try to say that is sexist, but she says guys are simple, and can only think about one thing at a time, and it's usually that.
> 
> Sadly, she always had low self esteem, while I was one of those alpha types, yet quiet. It took a lot of conscious effort on my part to convince her that I only see her in a crowded room.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

sisters359 said:


> This is a good example of a passive-aggressive response. It's the kind of thing a guy says and his wife is likely to think, "What? We have equal emotional burdens but my body and sleep are aliens to me. How can he possibly imagine that we are having the same experience?"


I can't. And baring parthenogenesis or turning into a damn seahorse that's not going to change. The point is, we''re ALL stressed out. We're ALL frayed. The baby isn't calling out HER name. We both have to deal with it. And I get to hop out of bed bleary eyed to go to work too. All I'm saying, No Mom is an Island.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Mem,

I get what your saying and it could be I haven't noticed it yet, but very very rarely does she purposely disrespect me. I would like to believe that she is just naive to how important certain things are to me since I never communicated these effectively. I don't believe she gives me the same level of respect I show her, but I will demand nothing less going forward and at this point only time will tell. Our last talk (she prompted) I made myself very clear and since, she has been trying. Some of it doesn't seem authentic yet but I guess she is making an effort. My biggest issue at the moment is I'm not sure how I feel anymore, I've been enjoying doing more for myself and aren't even close to where I want to be and already are unsure about my feelings. I'm not sure if they are some still lingering resentment or I'm just seeing things with clear glasses at the moment.

BTW - We've both gained some weight during the marriage, but are both in the process of getting rid of it.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Mem,

One more thing that's been bugging me, during our talk I expressed my needs and then asked her what she would like from me, she said nothing. I again said I felt we both missed the mark on each other so if there is anything you need from me you will have to let me know. I then mentioned about the book on the 5 love languages and how it explains how different people need different things and she just shrugged.

Here's the part I don't get, You would think that if your marriage is on the brink and you had every effort to save it that this would be something you might look into or anything for that matter. She has made no effort anywhere other than status quo and to try and "act" like she interested in the bedroom for the last week or so, yet this is being going on for months.

That is what I am now dealing with, I'm not worrying about it right now because I'm still work in progress but it does impact how I feel about her.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I can PM you some ideas if you like




bill2011 said:


> Mem,
> 
> One more thing that's been bugging me, during our talk I expressed my needs and then asked her what she would like from me, she said nothing. I again said I felt we both missed the mark on each other so if there is anything you need from me you will have to let me know. I then mentioned about the book on the 5 love languages and how it explains how different people need different things and she just shrugged.
> 
> ...


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Yes please do


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Bill,

Here's something that I figured out.

The "love language" stuff, Harley's "Love Busters", and "His Needs her Needs" are the marriage equivalent of a chick flick.

They are undoubtedly true.

BUT - if you go right to them, you put the cart before the horse.

It devolves into "he said she said" over who is meeting who's needs.

Imagine something this disgusting, "Honey, Willard Harley now says we are in 'conflict mode', we need to go to neutral corners and think and then return to 'negotiation mode".

In other words, "marriage by number".

Complete bullshix.

You have to internally recognize these steps, but NEVER speak of them. If you speak of them, you seem needy. And, we know where that goes.

Of course, it's helpful to know about them if SHE opens the discussion about the relationship. You can even use the terms "disrespectul judgements and violent outbursts" to identify symptoms. But, what you simply cannot/should not/must not do is try to tell her why she isn't measuring up to "fighting fair" or some esoteric b.s. about the relationship.

Remember, attraction is subconscious.

Painting/arguing by number diminishes you.




bill2011 said:


> Mem,
> 
> One more thing that's been bugging me, during our talk I expressed my needs and then asked her what she would like from me, she said nothing. I again said I felt we both missed the mark on each other so if there is anything you need from me you will have to let me know. I then mentioned about the book on the 5 love languages and how it explains how different people need different things and she just shrugged.
> 
> ...


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> I can't. And baring parthenogenesis or turning into a damn seahorse that's not going to change. The point is, we''re ALL stressed out. We're ALL frayed. The baby isn't calling out HER name. We both have to deal with it. And I get to hop out of bed bleary eyed to go to work too. All I'm saying, No Mom is an Island.


My OH jokes to everyone that the baby sleeps all night- at least, HE didn't wake up... This is his response to me explaining I look terrible because I haven't had more than two consecutive hours of sleep in the last six months because of the baby waking. He sleeps all night, he's not frayed from anything! He doesn't have to deal with it, he biologically can't.

I have turned him down probably twice since the baby was born. He had the nerve to refer back not long ago and point it out- I won't tell you what I said to him but he hasn't mentioned those refusals again- considering we somehow manage to be intimate in some form every day I think he had a nerve!

All I am saying is that the physical aftermath of giving birth doesn't get better instantly, and certainly breastfeeding does all sorts of weird things to your hormones, including suppressing desire and therefore the chances of reproducing in order for your body to nourish the baby you have. With all respect HE doesn't have to deal with ANY of that.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Conrad said:


> Bill,
> 
> Here's something that I figured out.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Conrads very right with this. Probably better is to just TELL HER what you plan to do, and then do it. Don't ask permission, don't seek approval for it, just tell her that you are working on yourself and that how you relate to her will be different going forward. 

The reality is that women don't meet the needs of men they don't feel attraction to. And the more you negotiate, ask, open conversation, the worse it gets. 

You can state your needs, but you can't ask for them to be met. She's got to decide to do that on her own. In the meantime you can create a life for yourself with or without her.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

SS,

I wasn't seeking approval for me to do anything. I was stating that is it difficult for me to work at the relationship now when she puts no effort. She claims I am the love of life yet doesn't do anything to fix our issues. So at this point I feel almost nothing and will just work on myself




seeking sanity said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Conrads very right with this. Probably better is to just TELL HER what you plan to do, and then do it. Don't ask permission, don't seek approval for it, just tell her that you are working on yourself and that how you relate to her will be different going forward.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

bill2011 said:


> SS,
> 
> I wasn't seeking approval for me to do anything. I was stating that is it difficult for me to work at the relationship now when she puts no effort. She claims I am the love of life yet doesn't do anything to fix our issues. So at this point I feel almost nothing and will just work on myself
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Got it. I think what you've described above is kind of the crux of being a husband, unfortunately. In MEM's language, perhaps time to de-prioritize her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

After reading this forum, this surprises you?



mr.miketastic said:


> I had one of those situations the other night that had a surprising twist ending.
> 
> We were in the middle of things and twice I happened to see her roll her eyes which at that point really pissed me off.
> 
> ...


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

damned if you do, damned if you dont


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

BTW, to relay my situation, i agree with the baby thing, women just worn out during that phase, no doubt about it. I just cant think for the life of me why now, since our kids all sleep through the night and so does she (for several years), why cant she go back to putting more effort into the intimacy thing? (or several other things for that matter)


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

mr.miketastic said:


> I had one of those situations the other night that had a surprising twist ending.
> 
> We were in the middle of things and twice I happened to see her roll her eyes which at that point really pissed me off.
> 
> ...


Not weird at all. She knows she messed up. You not willing to put up with it for an O threw her for a loop. She had to get her "hand" back as Costanza would say.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Indifference can be incredibly powerful stuff.




Kobo said:


> Not weird at all. She knows she messed up. You not willing to put up with it for an O threw her for a loop. She had to get her "hand" back as Costanza would say.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

I agree very powerfull, I recently held back an ILY during sex. Caused a huge response but it got us to talk and once again I laid the cards on the table. I've decided I can not love someone who has no desire to be with me.



MEM11363 said:


> Indifference can be incredibly powerful stuff.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> Luckily I've never experienced this. We've been pretty compatible up until the last year or so (about 20 years together total). And at this point - for whatever reason - I've become the "lower drive" spouse while her drive has increased.
> 
> *Now - about 10 years ago she went through a phase where she suddenly became "unsure" about giving BJs. May have just been a test. Don't remember it too well, but I don't think it lasted longer than a couple of weeks*.


Unfortunately my wife underwent the same unsure-ness. It has lasted 5 years and still going strong.

I hate every minute of it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

sinnister said:


> Unfortunately my wife underwent the same unsure-ness. It has lasted 5 years and still going strong.
> 
> I hate every minute of it.


I have a friend whose wife decided blowing him was against the tenets of her religious faith. She decided this with a group of other church ladies studying the Christian scriptures.

I told him he should declare as a Mormon to change the dynamic.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

At least my wife just doesn't do it doesn't volunteer or explain or defend it or anything. At least we know that up front and there's no point in quibbling about it. I feel that anyone who needs to concoct some sort of quasi-religious-biological-psychobabble excuse is just messing with you. At their root, the reasons are all the same. She doesn't want to. 

As the Vatican says "Roma Locuta Causa Finita" (Rome says, case closed!)


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Bill,
> 
> Here's something that I figured out.
> 
> ...


This hits home.
Particularly counterproductive with a spouse who is prone to "measuring."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Um. And I call him out WAY too often on "going outside the lines."
this opened my eyes to how much I may be shooting us in the foot without realizing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Whenever I dig into this topic, I'm always left with this depressed feeling that marriage is one big manipulation to work your partner to meet your needs. All these strategies - what to say, what to hold back, how to create attraction, knowing all this f*cking love languages jargon but don't let HER know you know it, alpha/beta, dominance, nice guy, etc... all of it gives me a headache. I'm aware of it, do my best to execute on it, but I'm so sick of it.

It's so much work. Sometimes it hardly seems worth the effort. 

The easier solution seems to be just don't get married/live together in the first place - unmarried women seem to hold on to the motivation to please their man longer and vice versa. 

I always avoided buying into that "marriage is a sex killer" rhetoric. Now I don't know.


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## Orion (Jul 17, 2010)

seeking sanity said:


> Whenever I dig into this topic, I'm always left with this depressed feeling that marriage is one big manipulation to work your partner to meet your needs. All these strategies - what to say, what to hold back, how to create attraction, knowing all this f*cking love languages jargon but don't let HER know you know it, alpha/beta, dominance, nice guy, etc... all of it gives me a headache. I know it all, I do my best to execute on it, but I'm so sick of it.
> 
> It's so much work. Sometimes it hardly seems worth the effort.
> 
> ...


:iagree:
I am in the midst of still working on myself and my marriage but your post hits home because before I got married, I had none of the bs going on that I did during the "dark times" and still do (but less frequently). And, many of my friends who aren't married don't seem to deal with that crap because the women haven't "locked them in yet". Again, I am working on myself and implementing what I have learned (and am still learning) from the guys here but it is irritating that marriage seems to be this constant chess match of posturing, manipulation, and bullsh!t just to get a person to act how they did before you married them.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Orion said:


> :iagree:
> I am in the midst of still working on myself and my marriage but your post hits home because before I got married, I had none of the bs going on that I did during the "dark times" and still do (but less frequently). And, many of my friends who aren't married don't seem to deal with that crap because the women haven't "locked them in yet". Again, I am working on myself and implementing what I have learned (and am still learning) from the guys here but it is irritating that marriage seems to be this constant chess match of posturing, manipulation, and bullsh!t just to get a person to act how they did before you married them.


Rumor had it it's a temporary but sometimes necessary season or phase.
But I 100% relate to the frustration.
When does the dark season give way to the sunny spring?
How long is the course??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Orion said:


> marriage seems to be this constant chess match of posturing, manipulation, and bullsh!t just to get a person to act how they did before you married them.


That is f*cking brilliant. LOL


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## Orion (Jul 17, 2010)

seeking sanity said:


> That is f*cking brilliant. LOL


Thanks. It my be brilliant but it's tiring as hell sometimes. I remember someone telling me that a woman marries a man hoping to change him and a man marries a woman hoping that she doesn't change. I thought that was a cliche' until wedding bells rang for me and Mrs. Orion. :rofl:


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Orion said:


> :iagree:
> I am in the midst of still working on myself..


I'm sure I'm not as messed up as my relationships. I don't think "I" need all that much work. I think retrofitting into a bad marriage is a bigger problem.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You are confusing marriage and relationship stability. 

Giving your partner "unconditional" relationship stability is a recipe for disaster. It brings out their worst. This is generally true for men and women. 

Letting someone say to you "you cannot kiss me - but you can have sex with me - if you can just hurry it up" - opens the very gates to hell itself. 

Leave them open for a while and you can't really claim surprise when you actually end up in marital hell. 




seeking sanity said:


> Whenever I dig into this topic, I'm always left with this depressed feeling that marriage is one big manipulation to work your partner to meet your needs. All these strategies - what to say, what to hold back, how to create attraction, knowing all this f*cking love languages jargon but don't let HER know you know it, alpha/beta, dominance, nice guy, etc... all of it gives me a headache. I'm aware of it, do my best to execute on it, but I'm so sick of it.
> 
> It's so much work. Sometimes it hardly seems worth the effort.
> 
> ...


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## MisterNiceGuy (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm hardly the one to comment since I'm in the middle of trying to work it out with my wife after her EA. If you don't have kids and house and all that stuff, it's hard to see the big picture. I love my kids and I want to keep us all one big happy family. It seems like my wife could care less about her children sometimes. She sure as hell didn't think about them when she started this affair.

I have read all those books til my head split open. I figure if my wife and I ever recover from this affair thing, I could write my own frickin book. 

After years of putting the bare minimum into my marriage, now I'm trying like hell and sometimes I don't know if it's worth it. I realized that My wife doesn't seem to appreciate it now, but then her head is still in the clouds over her former love interest. But then I think of my kids and say, it's worth it for them if we can keep it together. 

Marriage should be work, sometimes hard work. If done correctly, the payoffs can be tremendous.




seeking sanity said:


> Whenever I dig into this topic, I'm always left with this depressed feeling that marriage is one big manipulation to work your partner to meet your needs. All these strategies - what to say, what to hold back, how to create attraction, knowing all this f*cking love languages jargon but don't let HER know you know it, alpha/beta, dominance, nice guy, etc... all of it gives me a headache. I'm aware of it, do my best to execute on it, but I'm so sick of it.
> 
> It's so much work. Sometimes it hardly seems worth the effort.
> 
> ...


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> You are confusing marriage and relationship stability.
> 
> Giving your partner "unconditional" relationship stability is a recipe for disaster. It brings out their worst. This is generally true for men and women.



Perhaps. I guess if you view your family as your team and you have bought into the provider and protector role, then yes that is allowing "unconditional" to guide your choices. As NiceGuy said above, you want to keep the family intact so you accept a less than ideal situation. 

As a man if you can operate as separate but participating entity, as in your model, that keeps the element of instability in the relationship. Seems like a lonely construct however. 

I'm prepared to leave. I've done it before, I would be willing to do it again if necessary. But I find keeping myself distant enough from the relationship that leaving wouldn't devastate me, is in itself devastating in a different way.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SS,
I completely understand that. Sounds like a very bad situation. I actually get a lot of love - real - sincere - love, from my W. 

As for sex - what she has lacked in passion she has always made up for in commitment. She has always felt it is her responsibility to be a great partner sexually. And yes - I wish she felt more lust/passion on the "average" day. Just as she wishes I felt less. But as far as commitment goes, she is stellar. I know she would say the same about me.





seeking sanity said:


> Perhaps. I guess if you view your family as your team and you have bought into the provider and protector role, then yes that is allowing "unconditional" to guide your choices. As NiceGuy said above, you want to keep the family intact so you accept a less than ideal situation.
> 
> As a man if you can operate as separate but participating entity, as in your model, that keeps the element of instability in the relationship. Seems like a lonely construct however.
> 
> I'm prepared to leave. I've done it before, I would be willing to do it again if necessary. But I find keeping myself distant enough from the relationship that leaving wouldn't devastate me, is in itself devastating in a different way.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

> I completely understand that. Sounds like a very bad situation.


Its really not so bad as I've made it out. With the various horrors of infidelity that play thru my mind depending on my ebb, I have a different dynamic at play that complicates things for me. 

This does bring up a different thought though. We are all married to spouses with strengths and limitations. I feel like the advice on this board is well meaning, but it's not to be taken as apples to apples. Those of us who aren't getting something we want in our relationship, come here to thrash around trying to solve the problem. We look to role model's thinking "if he can do, so can I." But it's not that simple. 

Early in my career I read a ton of business books thinking if I could just figure it out, then I'd make the money I wanted to make. Eventually I got tired of them, put my head down, stuck it out in a business, and it now does pretty well and I have a fairly easy life in that regard. The feeling of frustration I got then is similar to the feeling I get now. If I could just somehow figure it, then I'd win. But the guys who wrote those books, were in different markets, with different dynamics, and different opportunities presented themselves. So it's not as simple as following a boilerplate. There are guiding principles, but some initiatives never quite make it despite the execution. 

I've had clients I consider average at best in brains and implementation, who were wildly successful. To an objective eye it was luck as much anything else. I think marriage is a similar proposition.


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## MisterNiceGuy (Jan 26, 2011)

Agreed! I take all the advice I've gotten in my thread with a grain of salt. Many are well meaning, but it's easy to sit at a computer and type these things and it's another to implement them in the heat of the battle. I have a good therapist right now that is helping out too. He brings clarity to the situation. Much of the advice I've gotten has been good, some of it interesting to say the least. I appreciate all the time and effort everyone puts into their responses. But you must tailor your own actions to what you see in front of you...



seeking sanity said:


> This does bring up a different thought though. We are all married to spouses with strengths and limitations. I feel like the advice on this board is well meaning, but it's not to be taken as apples to apples. Those of us who aren't getting something we want in our relationship, come here to thrash around trying to solve the problem. We look to role model's thinking "if he can do, so can I." But it's not that simple.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> You are confusing marriage and relationship stability.
> 
> Giving your partner "unconditional" relationship stability is a recipe for disaster. It brings out their worst. This is generally true for men and women.
> 
> ...


So concise - so clear - so true.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

I have never and will never use SEX as currency with my husband.

I, as a woman, really do not understand how other women think this is appropriate behavior.

What if their husband decided to use MONEY or TIME as a weapon?

It's disgusting.

If my husband ever said - you can no longer kiss me - well - he would be someone else's husband pronto! Kissing is VERY intimate (it's why we DO NOT kiss anyone but each other) and for a wife to say no kissing, it's the same as saying I don't want to be intimate with you.

Quickies, etc., I see no problem here. Unless you lay there like a dead fish and tell him to hurry up - then it's quite obvious that you are not interested in the moment.

I'm just happy if my husband wants to and can, I'm sure not going to do anything to mess that up - period!


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> What if their husband decided to use MONEY or TIME as a weapon?


That's exactly what is being proposed as a counter to a wife that is sexually passive/rejecting.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> This has nothing to do with my other thread. Just curious about something.
> 
> I have read quite a few posts here by men whose sexual relationships have become very bad. I noticed that a fair number say that for a long time their W's have either:
> - Refused to "kiss" them sexually and/or
> ...


Lots of guys have it worse than this. Everyone has their own calculus for what they are willing to/have to accept. I think you are describing emotional degradation rather than sexual. One can get over that pretty quick.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The "Lots of guys have it worse" philosophy is the most popular refuge of men who have abdicated their role as "partner" and "parent". There is no way this type behavior is limited to the bedroom. And no way you can insulate your children from this very ugly interaction model. 

Then again, "benchmarking" yourself against "lots of other guys" is far easier than actually demanding that your partner treat you as well as you treat them. 



Ten_year_hubby said:


> Lots of guys have it worse than this. Everyone has their own calculus for what they are willing to/have to accept. I think you are describing emotional degradation rather than sexual. One can get over that pretty quick.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

It's a loserish rationalization.

Lots of guys have it worse!

Who cares?

And, of what relevance is that?


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Orion said:


> Thanks. It my be brilliant but it's tiring as hell sometimes. I remember someone telling me that a woman marries a man hoping to change him and a man marries a woman hoping that she doesn't change. I thought that was a cliche' until wedding bells rang for me and Mrs. Orion. :rofl:


I told my wife the other day that if we were no longer married for what ever reason that I wouldn't marry again. She asked why. I said it wasn't until we were married that love making became an "all day" process.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Actually this is what "I" propose:
- Let her know this causes you to feel unloved
- If you are "out of shape" get "in shape"
- Ask her "what" you can do differently to make her feel more desire, or teach you how to initiate sex and slowly get her in the mood when she starts out in neutral

If she is:
- Unwilling to explain her desire/turn off triggers AND
- Uninterested in working with you towards a mutually satisfying sex life 
THEN
You start to destabilize the relationship. Because at that point you and your needs are not being shown respect and that simply is not a long term "workable" situation. 

There is a point at which further "discussion", regardless how it is done, simply comes across as begging and THAT is a huge turn off for a woman. 

My W likes and loves my "good" side, she "desires" my dark side. That is simply reality. I didn't create that reality, I do however accept it. 




seeking sanity said:


> That's exactly what is being proposed as a counter to a wife that is sexually passive/rejecting.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

So much of this sounds like nothing more than getting accustomed to a pair of shoes which will never fit right. I will just return the shoes and get another pair if they can't fit, never will fit.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Runs,
I thought you told us your wife had embedded a "monitoring" bracelet in your marriage license, such that if you attempted to 'return' her, she would call the police and have you arrested. 




Runs like Dog said:


> So much of this sounds like nothing more than getting accustomed to a pair of shoes which will never fit right. I will just return the shoes and get another pair if they can't fit, never will fit.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

That's probably true, but everyone's case is different. I am dealing with what I in all sober truth believe is a psychopath. Sometimes you're stuck in a bad situation where there are few or no good options. I was speaking hypothetically.


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