# Wife Never Initiates but Accommodates



## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Here's a thought for those who are okay with the wife never initiating sex. A wife's initiating says to a husband, "I desire you." There's not a much better way to stroke the male ego. If the wife doesn't initiate, to some husbands, her agreeing to have sex feels like duty sex performed by a "good little wife". Let me tell you that if a wife never initiates and if another woman does, to some men, the message is, "My wife has lost interest in me, but this other woman still finds me appealing." That's powerful, and it comes in loud and clear. There's no doubt in my mind that a lot of affairs start that way. 

The biggest dilemma I'm trying to understand now is how so many wives who have sexual affairs rarely or never initiate sex in the marriage. The only consistent answer that makes sense to me is that the wife is just not interested in or turned on by the husband. "Not Just Friends" is helping me understand, but I'm not quite there yet.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Sfort said:


> Here's a thought for those who are okay with the wife never initiating sex. A wife's initiating says to a husband, "I desire you." There's not a much better way to stroke the male ego. If the wife doesn't initiate, to some husbands, her agreeing to have sex feels like duty sex performed by a "good little wife". *Let me tell you that if a wife never initiates and if another woman does, to some men, the message is, "My wife has lost interest in me, but this other woman still finds me appealing." That's powerful, and it comes in loud and clear. There's no doubt in my mind that a lot of affairs start that way. *
> 
> The biggest dilemma I'm trying to understand now is how so many wives who have sexual affairs rarely or never initiate sex in the marriage. The only consistent answer that makes sense to me is that the wife is just not interested in or turned on by the husband. "Not Just Friends" is helping me understand, but I'm not quite there yet.


Do you also believe that if a husband doesn't provide enough emotional support to his wife, and another man does, to some women the message is "my husband doesn't care about me, but this other man does". That it's powerful, and it comes through loud and clear. Do you think that's how a lot of affairs start?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Or she, that soft skinned waif, the WW, is not really into *initiating*, she wants to be purred, slurred, cooed to life, not ignored, snored to death. 

She seeks that *initiation* that only a strangely new man can offer her, not suffer upon her.

She is that bee that enjoys of new flowers, that never before tasted nectar that petal hopping can only deliver to her fragile, quickly gone, umm, that fickle taste of hers.



Signed, Lilith- forgive me, I descended into those selfish depths, some years ago. 

I was that spoiled lady, loving the attention, loving those words sounded, caring some little for the speaker, but loving the change-up and the pulsing volume. I fell in love only with men's fingertips and mouthed words, those arising from moist lips. 

I loved that word, _arising_. I lived, some short time just for that visage. Knowing, it was I who caused of this, I was, indeed, desired, in deed, proving this hardened truth.

I never knew (nor cared) or deeply cared any of my lovers, I chose to be taken, and initiated into the Kingdom of Bliss. They swore to me their undying love. They backed up their words by sealing the deal with their royal wand.

I have since sought forgiveness. I was under some spell, a spell delivered from bodies of matter, some of this being the charisma of men, some planetary, and likely (at least) one star. 

Being weak, and prone to falling, I failed the truest test of a partners worth. I sound many excuses, as I have nothing else to cling to. I enjoyed of that life, than it too, became stale. The consequences are very dire.

I was thrilled in the short run, in that sprint to gain as many men as possible.
I lost everything in the long run, I lost my pride and my dignity, somewhere along the way.

This happened suddenly. This, when I saw myself being used by men, ugh, my not being the user of men.

You see, I never looked at their eyes, felt of their heart.

I lived for their fingertips, those words of love and comfort. I lived for those wandering lips and that wand that they gave to me, over and over.
SunCMars took me aside and explained what it was I was feeling. He showed me I was only gaining these sensations, while losing my sensibilities. 

Losing myself.

I became two boobs, a set of lips and a vagina. I was no longer a worthy person, nor partner. So, I ceased this behavior, because I cared otherwise. I needed validation, not random, not faux love, not just any vascular discharges.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Lila said:


> Do you also believe that if a husband doesn't provide enough emotional support to his wife, and another man does, to some women the message is "my husband doesn't care about me, but this other man does". That it's powerful, and it comes through loud and clear. Do you think that's how a lot of affairs start?


Absolutely.

Expressio unius est exclusio alterius


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

SunCMars said:


> Or she, that soft skinned waif, the WW, is not really into *initiating*, she wants to be purred, slurred, cooed to life, not ignored, snored to death.
> 
> She seeks that *initiation* that only a strangely new man can offer her, not suffer upon her.
> 
> ...


Interesting for you to take on the voice of a woman and then **** shame yourself. Yes, we get it, wimmins are evil ****s.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Sfort said:


> Here's a thought for those who are okay with the wife never initiating sex. A wife's initiating says to a husband, "I desire you." There's not a much better way to stroke the male ego. If the wife doesn't initiate, to some husbands, her agreeing to have sex feels like duty sex performed by a "good little wife". Let me tell you that if a wife never initiates and if another woman does, to some men, the message is, "My wife has lost interest in me, but this other woman still finds me appealing." That's powerful, and it comes in loud and clear. There's no doubt in my mind that a lot of affairs start that way.
> 
> *The biggest dilemma I'm trying to understand now is how so many wives who have sexual affairs rarely or never initiate sex in the marriage.* The only consistent answer that makes sense to me is that the wife is just not interested in or turned on by the husband. "Not Just Friends" is helping me understand, but I'm not quite there yet.


Many men who have emotional affairs take their spouses for granted but treat their affair partners like treasured gold. 

Many women who have sexual affairs never initiate sex with their spouse but are the sexual pursers to their affair partners. 

Regardless of the supposed "reasons" for doing so, people cheat because they lack moral character. That's it. Those with integrity choose a different route to resolving their issues even when that means ending a marriage.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Interesting for you to take on the voice of a woman and then **** shame yourself. Yes, we get it, wimmins are evil ****s.


I agree.
@SunCMars not every woman who is LD is a wayward wife. Your post screams "wimmins are evil".


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Lila said:


> Sfort said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a thought for those who are okay with the wife never initiating sex. A wife's initiating says to a husband, "I desire you." There's not a much better way to stroke the male ego. If the wife doesn't initiate, to some husbands, her agreeing to have sex feels like duty sex performed by a "good little wife". Let me tell you that if a wife never initiates and if another woman does, to some men, the message is, "My wife has lost interest in me, but this other woman still finds me appealing." That's powerful, and it comes in loud and clear. There's no doubt in my mind that a lot of affairs start that way.
> ...


Thank you!!! Man or woman, cheaters have a character flaw. All the excuses in the world doesn't change that


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Sfort said:


> *The biggest dilemma I'm trying to understand now is how so many wives who have sexual affairs rarely or never initiate sex in the marriage.* The only consistent answer that makes sense to me is that the wife is just not interested in or turned on by the husband. "Not Just Friends" is helping me understand, but I'm not quite there yet.


Hello,

@Lila
@Faithful Wife
This is what I was aiming at, the OP's conundrum with wives who do not initiate sex yet have affairs.

Oh my, your feathers are easy, predictably easy to ruffle.

Forgive me, I was not as attentive to the probable and encompassing implications of my sentences.
My sentence condemning all women for some that employ, enjoy and initiate foreplay only when dabbling with strange ****s. And, *doing this, while married. *

My words were aimed wrongly.

I am sorry. I am still learning these word arrangement things.


Lilith- I committed these acts, while married, I was ashamed and repentant, not all women should think to follow suit. 
It is this *free life that we live.
Enjoy of it, howsoever, you please.

Single women 'can' have, and reach this same conclusion, as I did. 
Some do not, I agree and I accept that.

To each their own. I am not in any way or in any form, ashamed for you. 
Enjoy of your life, as you see fit. 

I am doing this as best as I can, in this short life of ours.

Bye!



Lilith-

*Free? Not a chance.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

SunCMars said:


> Hello,
> 
> @Lila
> @Faithful Wife
> ...


The **** shaming is a theme with you, not just this one post. You can twist it up however you want and pretend you are “helping” but your meaning is perfectly clear.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

I got hung up on this for a few years. Somewhere around year 5-7 I was stuck on this thought that it was pretty much always me that initiated sex. Of course you get some "not tonights" mixed in, but you mostly get a positive response and good results for both of us in the end though. But the fact I did most of the initiating really started bumming me out. As a result, I stopped initiating nearly as much and our sex life declined of course. Really self defeating nonsense if you think about it. 

So then we get down to maybe 2 times a month for a while. My own little insecurities and egotistical nonsense at the heart of the issue. After two years of this, doing all the same venting you see here, trying all the dumb tricks you read about online ... I literally did every chore for a full year once lol, so stupid! I did all the dumb love languages crap with her, all the talks, trying this combination and that one... All the while just carrying this weight and resentment for really no reason at all. 

Finally I just said f*** it Dude, she's just not ever going to be the horny for no reason at all kind of woman, why are you trying to change the script? When has she jumped my bones? Well, when I replaced the exhaust on my car, that time I ripped up the deck, when I was fixed her car, when I'm done splitting and stacking wood... Ok pattern here. Do more of that stuff when I know she will notice and watch me, and when you know we will have time to lock ourselves away in the room for a bit...

Next, just initiate more. F*** it. If she says no, f*** it. Try in the morning for a quicky. She will usually let you grab one in the morning for breakfast real quick. Think about it from her perspective. 5:20am, alarm goes off. She needs to get out of bed at 5:30, she hits snooze. Feels me roll over and start cuddling and trying to make a slow subtle move as if she doesn't know exactly what I'm up to haha!0 so she probably thinks "awe, he's trying to hard and being sweet. I did say no last night, he's lightning fast in the morning. I guess we have 5 minutes" and then she gets up and gets ready for work while I go back to sleep! :surprise: my alarm doesn't go off until 6:10 I can grab another 30 at least. So she's now rushing around having not had an O because she never does in the morning, we've tried everything... So that was all just for me, shes getting ready for work and im asleep again haha :grin2: And she still kisses me goodbye and kisses me when I get home from work. That isn't duty sex, that has "I love you" written all over it. 

So anyway, I'm over all that now. Go with the ebbs and flows and keep initiating, stay in shape, put yourself in favorable positions, and stop worrying about the rest. Our sex life has gone up and we are both happy in this area as a result.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Male passivity is SO unattractive.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

minimalME said:


> Male passivity is SO unattractive.


Please elaborate.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Sfort said:


> Please elaborate.


Read all of my other post again. Pretty much explains everything.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I'll preface this with - it totally depends on your wife and the dynamic established by the two of you. So maybe a guy prefers a woman in charge?

Having said that though...

If you're not getting something you want in your marriage, _speak up_! Fix it. Lead. Take her. _Do something!_




Sfort said:


> Please elaborate.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Read all of my other post again. Pretty much explains everything.


That was for @minimalME.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> The **** shaming is a theme with you, not just this one post. You can twist it up however you want and pretend you are “helping” but your meaning is perfectly clear.


You know.....

Maybe you are right. I have my triggers also.




[?]-


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

I love it when she initiates. I also love it when I initiate and she responds favorably. Sex is, in a positive way much like a fight is in a negative way... it usually doesn't matter a helluva lot who started it! 

It seems to me the relevant question is more about whether satisfying (for both partners) sex is taking place rather than who's making the first move.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Sfort said:


> Here's a thought for those who are okay with the wife never initiating sex. A wife's initiating says to a husband, "I desire you." There's not a much better way to stroke the male ego. If the wife doesn't initiate, to some husbands, her agreeing to have sex feels like duty sex performed by a "good little wife". Let me tell you that if a wife never initiates and if another woman does, to some men, the message is, "My wife has lost interest in me, but this other woman still finds me appealing." That's powerful, and it comes in loud and clear. There's no doubt in my mind that a lot of affairs start that way.
> 
> The biggest dilemma I'm trying to understand now is how so many wives who have sexual affairs rarely or never initiate sex in the marriage. The only consistent answer that makes sense to me is that the wife is just not interested in or turned on by the husband. "Not Just Friends" is helping me understand, but I'm not quite there yet.


I think you're making a mountain out of a mole-hill. Sure, it would be great if our women jumped us all the time, but in a lot of cases, that's just not how a woman's sexuality works. As long as your wife is sexually receptive, and enjoys the sex you initiate, I don't think there's much of an issue.

Like Lebowski said, work with what you have. Having to initiate good sex is hardly pulling teeth. Now if your wife starts refusing, or isn't enjoying/participating in the sex, then that would be cause for concern.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Speaking only for myself, it matters.

My desire ramps up considerably if I'm being pursued, yet it will plummet if I'm having to ask, and/or being refused.

And it snowballs rather quickly. 

Great dynamic/sex perpetuates more lust, while passivity leads to irritation, annoyance, lack of respect, shutting down, etc.




Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It seems to me the relevant question is more about whether satisfying (for both partners) sex is taking place rather than who's making the first move.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

minimalME said:


> Speaking only for myself, it matters.
> 
> My desire ramps up considerably if I'm being pursued, yet it will plummet if I'm having to ask, and/or being refused.
> 
> ...


 @minimalME gets it. For those who think it's not a problem, how long have you been married? If you haven't been married 40 years, how do you know how much of a problem it becomes? If you've been married that long and you're okay with that response, you're in a great situation, but not everyone is.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Are you male? From your opening post, I assumed you were?



Sfort said:


> @minimalME gets it. For those who think it's not a problem, how long have you been married? If you haven't been married 40 years, how do you know how much of a problem it becomes? If you've been married that long and you're okay with that response, you're in a great situation, but not everyone is.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

minimalME said:


> Speaking only for myself, it matters.
> 
> My desire ramps up considerably if I'm being pursued, yet it will plummet if I'm having to ask, and/or being refused.
> 
> ...


I guess for me, a positive response to my initiation creates the same excitement as being on the receiving end of an initiation. Both work equally well.

As you say, though, rejection is a libido killer. As is passivity... regardless of who's initiating.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Sfort said:


> @minimalME gets it. For those who think it's not a problem, how long have you been married? If you haven't been married 40 years, how do you know how much of a problem it becomes? If you've been married that long and you're okay with that response, you're in a great situation, but not everyone is.


She's female. Like several people here are saying, a lot of women have responsive desire - minimalME being one of them. 

Your wife having responsive desire is not a "problem". You might prefer that she was the aggressor, but guess what, she likely feels the same way about you. She wants _you_ to be the aggressor.

Work with what you have dude. If your wife responds positively to your sexual advances, then you're winning at life.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Sfort said:


> The biggest dilemma I'm trying to understand now is how so many wives who have sexual affairs rarely or never initiate sex in the marriage. The only consistent answer that makes sense to me is that the wife is just not interested in or turned on by the husband.


That was the case for me. I was not sexually attracted to my exH, but I wasn't repulsed by him, either. I guess I could best describe my response as neutral. I very, very, rarely initiated and when I did it was not because I wanted to have sex with him, in particular, it was because I was spontaneously aroused and wanted to have sex, in general. I was sexually attracted to my affair partners, so I did initiate more with them.



minimalME said:


> Male passivity is SO unattractive.


In general life I think male passivity is very unattractive. In sexual situations, it depends. If I'm feeling dominant side of me an enthusiastic and engaged submissive man can be hot.



minimalME said:


> I'll preface this with - it totally depends on your wife and the dynamic established by the two of you. So maybe a guy prefers a woman in charge?


I wonder if this male upset over lack of female initiation is new. I'm not a guy and I'm not particularly well educated, so I could be way off. 

In various times and places throughout history it was even considered unnatural, unladylike, a sign of loose morals, and so on for a woman to overtly want and enjoy sex. I think that male initiation was something that was just expected and accepted. Women were not supposed to be pursuers or initiators. Women we supposed to guard their chastity while men pursued and wooed them. So, traditionally, men demonstrated their desire for a woman by pursuing her and a woman demonstrated her desire for a man by allowing him to catch her. No one really questioned this system.

Now, _very_ recently in the grand scheme, we questioned the system and came to the new conclusion that women should be equal in society and that women are sexual beings who, in fact, do naturally want and enjoy sex. Maybe men are questioning the system, too, and finding they want equality of their own. They want to be pursued and wooed and won, too. And, if that doesn't happen in their relationship, they naturally feel hurt and upset.




Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I guess for me, a positive response to my initiation creates the same excitement as being on the receiving end of an initiation. Both work equally well.
> 
> As you say, though, rejection is a libido killer. As is passivity... regardless of who's initiating.


Your post actually got me questioning initiation. "A positive response to my initiation" prompted me to think of initiations between DH and I, the subsequent sex, in an effort to decide if I, too, am equally excited by a positive response and being the respondee. I realized DH physically initiates more often than I do, but I behaviorally initiate more than he does. I'll subtly kiss him differently, extend ordinary touch a bit, flirt, compliment and flatter, and generally make it known I'm open to sex. He's the one who initiates overtly sexual touching. 

Yesterday, if you'd asked me which of us initiates more I'd have said DH. He's the one who makes the physical first move. Now, thinking about it, I might say I initiate more because I'm the one that sends up the sex Bat signals.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Lila said:


> Do you also believe that if a husband doesn't provide enough emotional support to his wife, and another man does, to some women the message is "my husband doesn't care about me, but this other man does". That it's powerful, and it comes through loud and clear. Do you think that's how a lot of affairs start?


There's a caveat here;

when the W is acknowledged as the sole decider of "ok, proper emotional support level is achieved" there's the (traditional?) acknowledgement she's in charge of when and if a couple has sex.

Big mistake. Big. Huge.

Leads to movement of goalposts at anytime. Anyone wants to relinquish control totally? Just adhere to this practice.

Me, not so much.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

BioFury said:


> She's female. Like several people here are saying, a lot of women have responsive desire - minimalME being one of them.
> 
> Your wife having responsive desire is not a "problem". You might prefer that she was the aggressor, but guess what, she likely feels the same way about you. She wants _you_ to be the aggressor.
> 
> Work with what you have dude. If your wife responds positively to your sexual advances, then you're winning at life.


This times a million. 

Great response !!


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Here's what I see again and again from my readers:

1. Man wants his wife to WANT him. He wants to see that visceral, raw "I'm so turned on I have to drag you into the bedroom" kind of action from his wife.

2. Man thinks that the above should JUST HAPPEN because he himself often has that urge. His wife just needs to walk across the room and he's ready to go. The thought that he actually has to DO something to push his wife's buttons doesn't occur to him until it's almost too late. And then, when he finally chooses to DO something, he does all of the wrong things (cleans the house, buys her gifts, professes his undying love, etc). I refer to these as the "five mistakes" in my book. 

Some men are clued in to the real solution accidentally. Like when he goes outside and chops wood for a couple of hours and his wife has her hands all over him. Or when he gives a speech to a group of people and his wife can't wait to get him home. Or when he goes to the gym and returns a sweaty mess and the wife is waiting for him in the bedroom. 

The really odd thing that often happens: Some men DO finally wake up to what turns their wife on... and the men become resentful. "I shouldn't have to do these things to turn my wife on! She should just WANT me for ME!" No... it doesn't work that way.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

dadstartingover said:


> 1. Man wants his wife to WANT him. He wants to see that visceral, raw "I'm so turned on I have to drag you into the bedroom" kind of action from his wife.


My behavior becomes this ^, but it's in response to a man's initial behavior. I want him when he's assertive and pursues - consistently.



> 2. Man thinks that the above should JUST HAPPEN because he himself often has that urge.


This was exactly my ex-husband's attitude - about everything. 

It was just somehow gonna happen. Retirement accounts, parenting, sex. He acted like it was all going to fall into place with absolutely no effort or engagement on his part. And even when faced with a divorce request, he told me that he wasn't going to promise that anything would change.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> Interesting for you to take on the voice of a woman and then **** shame yourself. Yes, we get it, wimmins are evil ****s.



I'm going out on a limb here, ready to accept any reprisals....

By saying it's ok for the H to initiate anytime he wants regardless if there's a feeling from the W that she indicates "my emotional quota hasn't reached acceptable level". Tell her so what. I'm being emotionally here for you now, just that we can be nekkid as we get closer.

Don't let her be the sole gate keeper. Never. Ever. That always leads to resentments.

As with anything here are always exceptions, but the W should not be the sole decider of when to have sex.

I've heard stories of Ws saying "in a little bit maybe, I'm watching a show on TV. And can move levels of any of her reasons not to have sex to keep the sexual encounter from happening. 

And she wins in all cases; the put off puts it off, and pisses the H off where now he doesn't want sex anymore, and the W wins in all cases; she now doesn't have to engage, in any of the outcomes, it's a self perpetuating no win environment for the H.

Speaking for myself, I never accept that her watching a TV show is more important that an opportunity to have sex. 

I stated that clearly years ago that no TV is more important than I am. I never keep repeating myself on this and similar. 

But many couples play this game, and the W ends up the sole 
gate keeper for sex, and that should always be not the case.

Sexist remark here, but the man should make it known sex is coming, and being the sole initiator is ok, although as sex continues to happen, a W will always start being more active in creating conducive sexual atmospheres. It just works that way. 

Its inevitable. Man up.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

MJJEAN said:


> Your post actually got me questioning initiation. "A positive response to my initiation" prompted me to think of initiations between DH and I, the subsequent sex, in an effort to decide if I, too, am equally excited by a positive response and being the respondee. I realized DH physically initiates more often than I do, but I behaviorally initiate more than he does. I'll subtly kiss him differently, extend ordinary touch a bit, flirt, compliment and flatter, and generally make it known I'm open to sex. He's the one who initiates overtly sexual touching.
> 
> Yesterday, if you'd asked me which of us initiates more I'd have said DH. He's the one who makes the physical first move. Now, thinking about it, I might say I initiate more because I'm the one that sends up the sex Bat signals.


That is a very good point. Sometimes it's hard to pin down exactly when initiation occurs. My wife has a different twinkle in her eye when she's receptive... a different feel to her caress. By pure measurement, it's probably be indistinguishable between a purely platonic touch and a more sexual touch, but I can _feel_ the difference. 

So if, upon sensing receptiveness, I go for the super-intimate kiss, or take her hand and lead her to the bedroom, have I actually initiated? Actually, I'd have to say no.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I'm going out on a limb here, ready to accept any reprisals....
> 
> By saying it's ok for the H to initiate anytime he wants regardless if there's a feeling from the W that she indicates "my emotional quota hasn't reached acceptable level". Tell her so what. I'm being emotionally here for you now, just that we can be nekkid as we get closer.
> 
> ...


I have no idea why you quoted me here. Nothing you’ve said above has anything to do with what Sun said or what I replied back to him. I also have no opinion on this topic really because I always initiate sex so I can’t relate to women who don’t.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

I realized DH physically initiates more often than I do, but I behaviorally initiate more than he does. I'll subtly kiss him differently, extend ordinary touch a bit, flirt, compliment and flatter, and generally make it known I'm open to sex. He's the one who initiates overtly sexual touching. 

Yesterday, if you'd asked me which of us initiates more I'd have said DH. He's the one who makes the physical first move. Now, thinking about it, I might say I initiate more because I'm the one that sends up the sex Bat signals.[/QUOTE]

I see a lot of people talking about "who initiates", however, I believe a lot of marriages are like the above, at least it is in my marriage. For the most part, it starts out as a comment made or a prolonged kiss (usually perpetuated by wife), then if i'm in the mood, i'll respond positive and eventually it's off to the bedroom or hot tub. Sometimes it's the reverse and i'll make the comment or prolong the kiss. I can't think back to a time where one of us actually asked the other to have sex; it doesn't work like that. If one of us did come out and ask, I would imagine it would put a lot of pressure on the other person and neither one of us would like that. I'm older though so I'm totally good with 2-3x a week (mostly 2x) except when we go on vacation together without the kiddos, then...game on.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> There's a caveat here;
> 
> when the W is acknowledged as the sole decider of "ok, proper emotional support level is achieved" there's the (traditional?) acknowledgement she's in charge of when and if a couple has sex.
> 
> ...


I think you missed the point I was trying to make with my post. The OP stated he understood why some men choose to cheat on wives who don't initiate sex. I was just wondering if he thought the same when women choose to cheat on emotionally distant husbands. For the record, cheating is not justified in either case. 

I also would like to state that my ex was the LD in my marriage. Tack on a 7 year struggle with ED (all mental) and you have what turned into me initiating and getting turned down or having it end in ED the vast majority of times.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

minimalME said:


> I'll preface this with - it totally depends on your wife and the dynamic established by the two of you. So maybe a guy prefers a woman in charge?
> 
> Having said that though...
> 
> If you're not getting something you want in your marriage, _speak up_! Fix it. Lead. Take her. _Do something!_


WTF


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Or get divorced. But please, stop whining.

Better?



Mr. Nail said:


> WTF


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

In my fantasy world, my wife initiating would make it more likely she would orgasm. An indication that she's in the mood. In the real world, it doesn't play out that way. I have found no way to figure out if it's going to work or not. Not talking PIV; that seems a near impossibility, maybe, possibly, once in 42 years, while she was pregnant with our first kid.

Somehow, and she said this herself last night, she has to allow herself to orgasm. She has to tell herself it's OK. But she doesn't tell me she's decided that. She won't tell me she's decided that. Other times she actually feels guilty about her own sexuality. What's a guy to do? (Well, hopefully a combination of IC & MC will help!). By the way, last night she had one of those mind-blowing minutes-long orgasms that leave me totally jealous. At the same time, nothing in the world makes me more turned on than my wife getting a big O. 

Now... how was this on-topic?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

contradictory sexist advice that leads to pain and suffering will not be well received.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> contradictory sexist advice that leads to pain and suffering will not be well received.


Context?


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I'm going out on a limb here, ready to accept any reprisals....
> 
> By saying it's ok for the H to initiate anytime he wants regardless if there's a feeling from the W that she indicates "my emotional quota hasn't reached acceptable level". Tell her so what. I'm being emotionally here for you now, just that we can be nekkid as we get closer.
> 
> ...


This is approaching "You better have sex with me, or else!" territory... which is a big no-no. I have heard from the mouth of women that they were so turned off by their husband, but gave him sex anyway because they felt obligated to... and eventually, it felt like they were being molested or even raped. Then they're in therapy with their husband and they say the R-word, and all hell breaks loose.

You don't want that. Nobody wants that. 

Men want genuine desire. If she doesn't desire you... you can choose to walk away and find somebody (or multiple somebodies) who do. I wouldn't want my wife to feel obligated to have sex with me. I'm going to present the best husband package I can to her. If that ain't good enough and her sexual engine is shut down for good... hey, no biggy. I get it. Nothing says we HAVE to be together.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I prefer when my guy initiates because I find that arousing. Once he does I'm there and he knows it.

Now if we're lounging together and I can tell he's interested I don't mind pursuing it, but it's very difficult for me to get aroused if he doesn't pursue or I don't see signs he's interested

To me there's nothing like a guy who pursues what he wants. Guys, if your woman responds enthusiastically believe me when I say she's into you.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

lifeistooshort said:


> To me there's nothing like a guy who pursues what he wants. Guys, if your woman responds enthusiastically believe me when I say she's into you.


Agree totally!! But I can also easily see why guys might like to be the one "taken" for a change. If a guy pursuing us makes us feel great, the reverse must be true also. I want my guy to get to feel that way sometimes so I initiate too.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I try to learn as much as possible from these types of threads. And I apply it to what other people in my life have said. But I will still never really understand it.

I'm sorry y'all, I wish sex was just easy for ya. All I can say is that it definitely seems to depend on having the right partner, a good sexual match, and that a mismatch seems to be almost insurmountable. I don't hear too many success stories about mismatches changing, but I know that good matches don't come to TAM to report how good it is, either (other than a small handful of us maybe but there are millions of great matches out there who we will never hear about because they have no reason to share). I understand some people have made commitments they would rather keep forever than give up on, no matter what the cost to themselves. But I just would never stick around for a mismatch. It is tooooooo good to have a great match to ever consider wasting my time that way. Maybe I am less loyal, maybe I wasn't raised right. Whatever though. A great sexual match makes me so happy and fulfilled that it is the bare minimum requirement for any relationship for me, short or long.


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

notmyjamie said:


> lifeistooshort said:
> 
> 
> > To me there's nothing like a guy who pursues what he wants. Guys, if your woman responds enthusiastically believe me when I say she's into you.
> ...


My husband has expressed that exact sentiment and even though it is not in my comfort zone I do it because I want to show him how much I want him. I initiate a lot in terms of starting. BUT, initiating to him means “taking” him, me on top. He loves it, but I just can’t orgasm that way, so he would rather not. My all-in effort is appreciated but he doesn’t want to do anything that doesn’t bring us both there (which includes hj’s and bj’s to completion). 

Makes me feel like a failure honestly.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Bluesclues said:


> My husband has expressed that exact sentiment and even though it is not in my comfort zone I do it because I want to show him how much I want him. I initiate a lot in terms of starting. BUT, initiating to him means “taking” him, me on top. He loves it, but I just can’t orgasm that way, so he would rather not. My all-in effort is appreciated but he doesn’t want to do anything that doesn’t bring us both there (which includes hj’s and bj’s to completion).
> 
> Makes me feel like a failure honestly.


You can start on top, but you don't have to finish that way. It does sound like your husband needs to expand his definition of "success" to include you both getting there, even if at slightly different times and in different positions.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Married but Happy said:


> You can start on top, but you don't have to finish that way. It does sound like your husband needs to expand his definition of "success" to include you both getting there, even if at slightly different times and in different positions.


Agreed!! Mix things up, have fun!! If he really wants you to get there while on top have him use his fingers to help you get there. Nobody should be made to feel like a failure in bed


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

dadstartingover said:


> This is approaching "You better have sex with me, or else!" territory... which is a big no-no. I have heard from the mouth of women that they were so turned off by their husband, but gave him sex anyway because they felt obligated to... and eventually, it felt like they were being molested or even raped. Then they're in therapy with their husband and they say the R-word, and all hell breaks loose.
> 
> You don't want that. Nobody wants that.
> 
> Men want genuine desire. If she doesn't desire you... you can choose to walk away and find somebody (or multiple somebodies) who do. I wouldn't want my wife to feel obligated to have sex with me. I'm going to present the best husband package I can to her. *If that ain't good enough and her sexual engine is shut down for good... hey, no biggy. I get it. Nothing says we HAVE to be together.*


For many women, how would that not be sexual blackmail, bordering on the R word you bring up? Some women may want to be married almost no-matter-what but have zero sexual desire for their spouse. So you you just pack up your bags and leave, without telling her why? Or do you explain that your idea of a healthy marriage involves sex, and either that's on the table or you're not in a healthy marriage and thus you leave for opportunity elsewhere? 

So telling her you don't HAVE to be together, if she isn't interested in sex... I don't see the big difference between that and "You better have sex with me, or else." Because that "or else" is just a harsher way of saying the same thing.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Casual Observer said:


> For many women, how would that not be sexual blackmail, bordering on the R word you bring up? Some women may want to be married almost no-matter-what but have zero sexual desire for their spouse. So you you just pack up your bags and leave, without telling her why? Or do you explain that your idea of a healthy marriage involves sex, and either that's on the table or you're not in a healthy marriage and thus you leave for opportunity elsewhere?
> 
> So telling her you don't HAVE to be together, if she isn't interested in sex... I don't see the big difference between that and "You better have sex with me, or else." Because that "or else" is just a harsher way of saying the same thing.


It's a HUGE difference. Remember the required underlying condition: desire. It's not about whether or not you have sex, it's whether or not the underlying condition exists. 

It's not blackmail at all. One can simply put out, but one can not manufacture desire. You can't coerce someone into desiring you any more than you can coerce a desired change in thought... you may be able to coerce a particular behavior, but not the underlying thought or desire.

And any woman who wants to be married but with no desire for sex should only be married to a man with similar goals. Keeping a man who wants a full relationship in a desireless marriage is evil. Let him go. If he leaves, you've no grounds for complaint. 

Mutual reciprocal desire is an essential element of most marriages.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Casual Observer said:


> For many women, how would that not be sexual blackmail, bordering on the R word you bring up? Some women may want to be married almost no-matter-what but have zero sexual desire for their spouse. So you you just pack up your bags and leave, without telling her why? Or do you explain that your idea of a healthy marriage involves sex, and either that's on the table or you're not in a healthy marriage and thus you leave for opportunity elsewhere?
> 
> So telling her you don't HAVE to be together, if she isn't interested in sex... I don't see the big difference between that and "You better have sex with me, or else." Because that "or else" is just a harsher way of saying the same thing.


****! now you've figured out how to rape someone with no sexual contact. Sounds a lot more like possible harassment.

So which is rape? "Just take her", or "telling her you don't HAVE to be together, if she isn't interested in sex"

Why not throw all the men in jail and let the women use the money that's left over on a study to figure out What The **** they want? 

Also case study, When I was 13 a 12 year old girl in my school had a crush on me, I did not return her affection. What (exactly) was I guilty of?
Everyone answer, I might as well be damned by all as damned by one.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It's a HUGE difference. Remember the required underlying condition: desire. It's not about whether or not you have sex, it's whether or not the underlying condition exists.
> 
> It's not blackmail at all. One can simply put out, but one can not manufacture desire. You can't coerce someone into desiring you any more than you can coerce a desired change in thought... you may be able to coerce a particular behavior, but not the underlying thought or desire.
> 
> ...


I wasn't debating the requirement for desire. Just saying that I don't see a line drawn in the sand where one side is reasonable conversation while the other side could be taken as coercion, if one of the two choices is an unreasonable sex life = end of marriage.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Casual Observer said:


> I wasn't debating the requirement for desire. Just saying that I don't see a line drawn in the sand where one side is reasonable conversation while the other side could be taken as coercion, if one of the two choices is an unreasonable sex life = end of marriage.


The latter is merely a statement of fact, not an attempt to coerce, since indeed genuine desire cannot be coerced.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Marriage and sex are basically synonymous. 

The fact that anyone would need to have that explained to them is kind of odd to me.

Whether it's to unite countries and produce heirs or just for pleasure, there it is.



Casual Observer said:


> Or do you explain that your idea of a healthy marriage involves sex, and either that's on the table or you're not in a healthy marriage and thus you leave for opportunity elsewhere?





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> *Mutual reciprocal desire is an essential element of most marriages.*


Speaking only for myself, I know what I want.

I want a man whom I admire and respect. Those two qualities in turn produce attraction and desire.

My earlier response of 'take her' wasn't an invitation to rape women. I was speaking as a responsive woman who prefers an assertive man who confidently, firmly initiates sex - as opposed to a passive man who tip toes around sex, and/or whines about sex, and ends up not having any sex.



Mr. Nail said:


> So which is rape? "Just take her", or "telling her you don't HAVE to be together, if she isn't interested in sex"
> 
> Why not throw all the men in jail and let the women use the money that's left over on a study to figure out What The **** they want?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

dadstartingover said:


> This is approaching "You better have sex with me, or else!" territory... which is a big no-no. I have heard from the mouth of women that they were so turned off by their husband, but gave him sex anyway because they felt obligated to... and eventually, it felt like they were being molested or even raped. Then they're in therapy with their husband and they say the R-word, and all hell breaks loose.
> 
> You don't want that. Nobody wants that.
> 
> Men want genuine desire. If she doesn't desire you... you can choose to walk away and find somebody (or multiple somebodies) who do. I wouldn't want my wife to feel obligated to have sex with me. I'm going to present the best husband package I can to her. If that ain't good enough and her sexual engine is shut down for good... hey, no biggy. I get it. Nothing says we HAVE to be together.


I normally agree with you, and do here, however you're missing my points, and maybe I could have been more clear as well.

It's never ever about forcing another to do anything, that part's pretty clear, *you kind of jumped the tracks* there 🙂.

My points are;

1. It's never productive to a healthy relationship to always acquiesce to the "standard" of the W being the sole gatekeeper of "when it's an acceptable time to have sex".

2. Or automatically relinquish control to a W that she determines what's "the normal" frequency for you as a couple to have sex.

3. Or automatically accept she "must be right" when she says or implies "you're a pervert" and "not normal" for wanting sex anytime it's not according to what schedules she sets, what she deems "normal". Hogwash.

4. Or automatically accept she's always right, and has the right to; demand the H do this, that, adding this, changing that, to, for her purposes of putting sex off, keep a H chasing his tail believing it will get better "dang it, if he could only get "it" right" she'll be the sexual partner he wants. After all she keeps saying it's so, ad nauseam, and as she intends nothing changes. 

Again, it's that a H should not *accept* a W or SO is the sole gatekeeper of when to have sex and believe he's *always* at fault for any poor sexual relations.

Last point: Not to believe a Ws shifting the "goal posts" all the time is in any shape or form a healthy relationship. 

And to be confident there can be changes to improve his life, perhaps the relationship (not guaranteed) in whatever forms the solution(s) may be for him.

W has choices. H has choices. Both are of equal importance.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The latter is merely a statement of fact, not an attempt to coerce, since indeed genuine desire cannot be coerced.


Exactly... I'm no dummy. I know when somebody is not attracted to me. That person is then not a candidate for a relationship. If I say, "Hey, I get it. No hard feelings. Let's go our separate ways", she shouldn't take that as an attempt at coercion/blackmail. It's just a factual statement. Even if she said, "No no no! I'm sorry! Let's go have sex right now! I've not been a great wife! I can make this better!" I would just assure her that my actions are not an attempt to get her to bed... it's just a result of months of me doing all I can to get the fire going again, and I can see that my efforts are fruitless because the underlying foundation of genuine attraction isn't there anymore. It happens. It happens a lot. Unlike other guys who stick around for YEARS under such a relationship dynamic, I don't operate like that. I'd rather shake hands, separate like adults, and go get my needs met elsewhere... with a person who wants to rip my clothes off.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It's a HUGE difference.  Remember the required underlying condition: desire. It's not about whether or not you have sex, it's whether or not the underlying condition exists.
> 
> It's not blackmail at all. One can simply put out, but one can not manufacture desire. You can't coerce someone into desiring you any more than you can coerce a desired change in thought... you may be able to coerce a particular behavior, but not the underlying thought or desire.
> 
> ...


See bolded.

Yes, times a million.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Wow! There are some fabulous observations and comments here. I'm going to go back and Like and respond to a couple of them. While I can't say I have answers to my original questions, this forum and _Not Just Friends_ are helping me see the other side. I've already recommended the book to a couple of friends who, as far as I know (which means nothing), have not had affairs.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Lila said:


> The OP stated he understood why some men choose to cheat on wives who don't initiate sex. I was just wondering if he thought the same when women choose to cheat on emotionally distant husbands.


Absolutely. If one spouse is more willing to talk about sex than the other is, and the one who is unwilling to talk about it complains that his or her partner doesn't understand, I'm confused over a solution. Again, I'm thinking about examples I've read in _Not Just Friends_. In my case, if I'm emotionally distant and my spouse doesn't let me know or is not willing to discuss it, what am I supposed to do?



> For the record, cheating is not justified in either case.


Normally I agree. There may be cases that are more justified than others, but my position has been that a marriage should be terminated before an affair begins. Sharing physical intimacy with a third person is very difficult to accept, but the lies and deception may be harder.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

MJJEAN said:


> That was the case for me. I was not sexually attracted to my exH, but I wasn't repulsed by him, either. I guess I could best describe my response as neutral. I very, very, rarely initiated and when I did it was not because I wanted to have sex with him, in particular, it was because I was spontaneously aroused and wanted to have sex, in general. I was sexually attracted to my affair partners, so I did initiate more with them.


Did you ever tell him that you were not sexually attracted to him? That would have to be devastating for him to hear. 



> Your post actually got me questioning initiation. "A positive response to my initiation" prompted me to think of initiations between DH and I, the subsequent sex, in an effort to decide if I, too, am equally excited by a positive response and being the respondee. I realized DH physically initiates more often than I do, but I behaviorally initiate more than he does. I'll subtly kiss him differently, extend ordinary touch a bit, flirt, compliment and flatter, and generally make it known I'm open to sex. He's the one who initiates overtly sexual touching.


Yeah, I miss those things.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Interesting topic. I don't consider it blackmail to say "you're not meeting my needs for a fulfilling sex life and I know you never can so so I think it's time to end things." 

It is if you say "you either sleep with me right now or we're done!!!" 

There's a big difference between those two statements. I said the equivalent of the former to my STBX and never even tried the latter. Why bother? I want to be with someone who wants to be with me...if you don't, just move along please. The problem happens when people don't move along...they want all the other stuff but not the sex and that's just not fair.

If you can't choose to end things when the sexual spark isn't there because it's tantamount to rape then we're all trapped in our very first unfulfilling relationship. Shudder!!


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Quote:
Originally posted @ vocabulary.com
"Medically speaking, when a person is called unresponsive, it means they're at least unconscious, and possibly dead or dying."

Makes me feel much better about "responsive" women.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

You haven't contributed anything of substance to this thread. You just complain about what others post.

What is it that you want?




Mr. Nail said:


> Quote:
> Originally posted @ vocabulary.com
> "Medically speaking, when a person is called unresponsive, it means they're at least unconscious, and possibly dead or dying."
> 
> Makes me feel much better about "responsive" women.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Casual Observer said:


> I wasn't debating the requirement for desire. Just saying that I don't see a line drawn in the sand where one side is reasonable conversation while the other side could be taken as coercion, if one of the two choices is an *unreasonable* sex life = end of marriage.


By your own description *Unreasonable* being the key word. 

In what situations is it terrible to want to extricate oneself from an *unreasonable* , 
also can be read untenable, 
unpleasant, 
intolerable, 

and perhaps torturous mental anguish (as in there is no chance to "succeed having a full rich including physical relationship" no matter what's tried, what's provided emotionally and provisionally) set of circumstances?

Why is it assumed "hers" is the side being reasonable?

Are you saying the Hs needs and happiness is less important than Ws?

Can he not finally say I quit; you make me dance like a monkey with no end in site?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Sfort said:


> Here's a thought for those who are okay with the wife never initiating sex. A wife's initiating says to a husband, "I desire you." There's not a much better way to stroke the male ego. If the wife doesn't initiate, to some husbands, her agreeing to have sex feels like duty sex performed by a "good little wife". Let me tell you that if a wife never initiates and if another woman does, to some men, the message is, "My wife has lost interest in me, but this other woman still finds me appealing." That's powerful, and it comes in loud and clear. There's no doubt in my mind that a lot of affairs start that way.
> 
> The biggest dilemma I'm trying to understand now is how so many wives who have sexual affairs rarely or never initiate sex in the marriage. The only consistent answer that makes sense to me is that the wife is just not interested in or turned on by the husband. "Not Just Friends" is helping me understand, but I'm not quite there yet.


I have been challenged to add something substantial to the thread. It occurred to me that I Live this thread, and am a bit too close to it. There are plenty of women who are all right with wives who never initiate. The reasoning is many and varied. Responsive desire, traditional roles, insecurity, body image and so on. Having lived for three decades with a woman who won't initiate, my bitter opinion is This:
The reason not to initiate is laziness. It's not that she doesn't desire her husband. It's not that she doesn't (or rather can't) enjoy sex. It simply is too much work.
When a man continuously enables this behavior by taking the Lead in initiation constantly with no good return, then the marriage is nothing but a series of rapes. She is doing something she didn't consent to, and he is doing something he doesn't want to. They ritually rape each other, and pretend to the world that they are married. 

So to answer the question implied at the beginning without all the dancing around that has been in this thread. If the couple does not share the opportunities to initiate sex, they are both failing to express their feelings and desires to each other. This kind of behavior is a violation of the promise to love each other. So if one or both end up cheating, or emotionally distant, or disengaged. it is not a break in the marriage, it is rather a symptom of the existing broken marriage. 
Welcome to my life.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I think we all (??) agree that with such sexual disconnect, that's mostly if not always one of multiple signs there are deeper, much deeper, problems. For whatever reason.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Thank you.

I also lived in a sexless marriage, but with a husband who didn't initiate.

My ideal would be that, after an initial, consistent pattern of initiating on a man's part, if I knew he wanted me to come after him, I could totally see myself doing that. There are a lot of things that come to mind. 

I'm not lazy.

But the baseline would be his assertiveness. And with testosterone, I'd even go so far as to say aggressiveness. 

I like that, and I want that. 

And after being married for 20 years to a passive man, I'll never, ever come close to getting involved with someone who doesn't speak up for what they want. 

No more power struggles about sex. I'd truly rather be alone, because if I'm going to live without sex, I'll do it on my terms.




Mr. Nail said:


> I have been challenged to add something substantial to the thread. It occurred to me that I Live this thread, and am a bit too close to it. There are plenty of women who are all right with wives who never initiate. The reasoning is many and varied. Responsive desire, traditional roles, insecurity, body image and so on. Having lived for three decades with a woman who won't initiate, my bitter opinion is This:
> The reason not to initiate is laziness. It's not that she doesn't desire her husband. It's not that she doesn't (or rather can't) enjoy sex. It simply is too much work.
> When a man continuously enables this behavior by taking the Lead in initiation constantly with no good return, then the marriage is nothing but a series of rapes. She is doing something she didn't consent to, and he is doing something he doesn't want to. They ritually rape each other, and pretend to the world that they are married.
> 
> ...


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*The way I see it, initiation of sex and physical and non-physical affection should always be a mutual, shared responsibility, absolutely free from any fear by either partner!*


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Sfort said:


> Did you ever tell him that you were not sexually attracted to him? That would have to be devastating for him to hear.


Honestly, I don't remember. I left exH for DH nearly 20 years ago. 



Mr. Nail said:


> I
> The reason not to initiate is laziness.


Even the laziest people will muster the energy to do something they _want_ to do.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Let's remember that female desire is a bit more complicated than male desire. For most of history men only expected access....the desire for enthusiasm is much more recent and I would argue is largely linked to porn.

Not that women don't have desire....we clearly do. Especially when we're not raised to suppress it.

And I completely understand why men want desire...I know I want it from my partner.

But as had been pointed out you cannot manufacture enthusiasm. If you have to threaten divorce over it you're not going to get what you want.

I don't know the answer but I do know that while you can demand access you cannot demand desire.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

MJJEAN said:


> Honestly, I don't remember. I left exH for DH nearly 20 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Even the laziest people will muster the energy to do something they _want_ to do.


And this is the great summary into seeing what's important to a person. 

See where they spend their time and money; there are no better markers than these two things to demonstrate things a person believes are essential, desired, important.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

I was in a marriage for over twenty years with a woman who never initiated intimacy of any kind. I would say she had responsive desire. Physical touch definitely wasn't her love language. I tried so hard to fix that, but the harder I tried, the worse the two of us felt and created more resentments. More than likely, she was asexual. She didn't desire sex with me or anybody else. 


Now, post divorce, I'm in a new relationship with a woman who initiates sex most of the time. If we're cuddling on the couch, her hand seems to find its way to my pecker and it's game on. 


What is interesting is that she made a comment that she has to be the one who initiates sex. I always felt like a horn dog in my marriage and now my gf feels like she is the horn dog. It's a weird place to be in.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I think the thing most men miss when dealing with a stingy gatekeeper is to understand the desire to control, and the negative effect it has on sexual desire.

When you allow your controlling wife to exert herself to prevent sex, it literally reinforces her narrative that you are not desirable. 

In turn, most men talk, beg, plead, then talk some more. It isn't necessarily their fault. They have been told for years that they are supposed to deal with it this way through the "men don't communicate" stereotype. 

The answer for the stingy gatekeeper is to rock the boat to the point of capsizing in all other ways. Take away any semblance of control she has over you. Suddenly, you are no longer the predictable, boring man begging for sex, but rather the person who starts to intrigue her again because she can no longer control you. 

There is a direct correlation between allowing her to control you and her lack of desire for you.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> I think the thing most men miss when dealing with a stingy gatekeeper is to understand the desire to control, and the negative effect it has on sexual desire.
> 
> When you allow your controlling wife to exert herself to prevent sex, it literally reinforces her narrative that you are not desirable.
> 
> ...



I think this has merit.

Women don't like passive men or men who pout/beg. 

Too much like children. 

We want men. Not assholss.....men.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> I think this has merit.
> 
> Women don't like passive men or men who pout/beg.
> 
> ...


Being an ******* is not conducive to getting laid. BTDT 

It’s not always easy but at the end of the day you have the sex life you choose to have.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> I think the thing most men miss when dealing with a stingy gatekeeper is to understand the desire to control, and the negative effect it has on sexual desire.
> 
> When you allow your controlling wife to exert herself to prevent sex, it literally reinforces her narrative that you are not desirable.
> 
> ...


Maybe this is my strength. The "bad boy" stuff... You will never be able to control me. Laws and rules, they don't matter. I own up and face consequences for my actions should they come, but I'm inherently a rule breaker that does whatever I want. Now, I'll make decisions based on keeping my wife obviously, because she is ultimately what I want. However, she knows she can't really control me. A decade ago, early on in our relationship she would try. Lots of fights. Once she let go, things improved greatly. She figured out Dude just does what he does but it has nothing to do with his love for me. He will never ask for permission, only forgiveness and that doesn't mean he doesn't love me.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Maybe this is my strength. The "bad boy" stuff... You will never be able to control me. Laws and rules, they don't matter. I own up and face consequences for my actions should they come, but I'm inherently a rule breaker that does whatever I want. Now, I'll make decisions based on keeping my wife obviously, because she is ultimately what I want. However, she knows she can't really control me. A decade ago, early on in our relationship she would try. Lots of fights. Once she let go, things improved greatly. She figured out Dude just does what he does but it has nothing to do with his love for me. He will never ask for permission, only forgiveness and that doesn't mean he doesn't love me.


I couldn't have said it better myself. Well done!


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Let's remember that female desire is a bit more complicated than male desire. For most of history men only expected access....the desire for enthusiasm is much more recent and I would argue is largely linked to porn.
> 
> Not that women don't have desire....we clearly do. Especially when we're not raised to suppress it.
> 
> ...


One cannot force or enforce desire in a partner, if it's not there. But the partner may come to an understanding that they have taken someone for granted, the things they do, the person he or she is, and from that could come an epiphany and reawakening of desire.

I mean let's face it, you've read the threads here, and how many times has it seemed like the other person is just totally clueless about the problems in the marriage? It happens. Not all the time, perhaps not even 20% of the time, but it happens, and an "education" and choice could do the trick. Sometimes. 

It all comes down to communication, or lack thereof. Clearly, I had not adequately communicated discontent in our marriage with my wife, and she had certainly not with me. Until she stood face to face with the reality of what her hidden feelings, and mine, really meant, things were heading towards a conclusion she did not imagine possible. She never considered that she wasn't normal, that she had to take some responsibility for maintaining at least a smouldering ember of desire in the relationship.

Things are improving, with much work, IC & MC. She is seeing how much I have changed and no longer believes it's impossible for people to change in general. Sometimes the best you can do is be the best person YOU can be and maybe some of it will inspire. I'm trying, and she's trying.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> I think this has merit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In order to reinforce the dynamic, just a hint of ******* is necessary. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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