# Is their away to prevent an Affair?



## Nicola12 (Apr 1, 2013)

After reading some of the posts here on this site, I am shocked at what I am reading. I began looking at the considereing separation/divorce threads but keep finding myself at the infidelity threads. From what I read, gut reactions are central and I have noticed as I read that I have one alarm bell going. Just one.

We've been together 21 years, married for 18. I don't believe he is having an A now but I do wonder about the possibility... I'll tell you what I know... Is there something I can do?

My alarm bells have always gone off around a particular professional colleague of my H. She is beautiful, takes no s*** and very touchy, feely. She has also put me down with backhanded compliments in the past. My H has tons of female friends and I feel very comfortable with all of them except this one.

She lives in another state with her H and small children and I know they are having M problems so I don;t have much cause for worry most of the time. Since looking at this thread I have become introduced to the idea of an EA.

A year ago my H was traveling OS and for the first time ever I checked his email. There was an email from him to her saying the women in this country reminded him of her. We were having terrible problems at the time (a 20 year build up where I was starting to stop acting like a door mat and this 'new' me was changing things a bit which wasn't going down too well). In my IC I mentioned this email and the C said I should not mention I looked at the email and we spoke about how it made me sad that it felt that there was a connection there that he was looking for with her that he wasn't looking for with me.

I did ask him about her (as at the time, his phone was pinging with text messages) and he said nothing is going on. I believe him but the more I think about an EA the more I think this could develop.

What makes me write this now is that he is traveling to her city overnight in a few weeks. I feel very uncomfortable that they will see each other as I feel that this may deepen any attraction. H has lost a LOT of weight over the last 9 months - he looks fabulous.. He has a job he is finally happy with and he has been riding his bike there as we only have one car. I looked at his email this morning and he has ALREADY contacted her and they will see each other for dinner the night he is there. 

This is an alarm bell for me as usually he takes ages to do anything to organize anything but he is motivated about this.

There are only the odd emails to each other but he has a work phone and computer and b/c he knows I worry about their friendship, I guess he 'could' keep it there. My feeling is that he not that careful though...

Is there something I should or should not be doing here? We are having problems again b/c again I am standing up to him and not taking crap. He has also become very helpful around the house and I'm not sure if this is due to guilt or genuinely to help improve our relationship. We've been working really really hard in MC and outside MC. 

From what I've read, the fact I am writing, means something. Sigh. I don't want to say he can't see her as I dont want to be a controling spouse. I also know he has told her we are having problems (last year) and I feel uncomfortable with that.

Thoughts?

I was thinking of just trying to be excellent at everything but frankly I am pretty tired of the stress and worry our relationship has been going through... should I just ignore the fact he will see her? 

He sounds awful from this post but actually he is a smart, fun, guy who everyone thinks is great. He's a great father, pretty good around home but there is an element of control and emotional abuse which is the dynamic I've described that we are trying to change. This chick I worry about is strong, gregarious and I think he is really attracted to this type of person even though he couldn't live with one.


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## Nicola12 (Apr 1, 2013)

*Re: Is there away to prevent an Affair?*

I've titled the thread 'their' and not 'there'! You know what I mean.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Hi,

The only think I can think of is that you have to be firm with your husband. It will appear over the top firm and he will protest like crazy, but if you are uncomfortable then you must insist he does not meet this woman.

This could be awkward as despite what some say it is possible to have a friendship with the opposite sex; for example, I have a close female friend I have known for many years and I have no intention whatsoever of sleeping with her. We have dinner together occasionally and sometimes go to gigs. 

We do not, however, constantly text each other and I might talk to her once every few weeks.

My view would be that, if your husband is in regular contact (more than once a week) then that is a big red flag.

I have been on the edge of an EA recently but recognised it for what it was and quit my job. Had I not been through the trauma of infidelity, however, I would have let that develop without realising.

The point being, your husband - if he isn't already too involved - will genuinely think of your stand as harsh. You might have to do what is right for you both on this occasion though.

Have you read the book "Just Good Friends" by Prof. Shirley Glass? It might be worthwhile getting hold of it and talking through the bits about EAs with your husband.

Good luck. I really fee for you on this. I hope you can work it out.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Nicola12 said:


> Is there something I can do?


Generally, the way to "affair proof" your marriage, at least as much as possible, is to work on yourself, make sure you're meeting each other's needs, and set boundaries.



> I looked at his email this morning and he has ALREADY contacted her and they will see each other for dinner the night he is there.


This is a boundary issue. It could be nothing. It could be a date. Since it makes you uncomfortable, you're within your rights to insist that either he not see her, or he see her with her husband tagging along.

He will probably object to you requesting that he not see her. The thing is, if he were planning a night of sex with her, he would object just as fervently (perhaps more so). So you can't really go by that.



> I don't want to say he can't see her as I dont want to be a controling spouse.


Telling your husband that he can't go on dates with other women is not being a controlling spouse. Say that sentence over and over to yourself until you believe it.

There are MANY examples of adultery on this board that could have been averted if the betrayed spouse had been less afraid of appearing controlling. Better to have your husband resenting you for c0ckblocking him than sending him off to another woman with your blessing.

Good luck.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

Nicola12 said:


> After reading some of the posts here on this site, I am shocked at what I am reading. I began looking at the considereing separation/divorce threads but keep finding myself at the infidelity threads. From what I read, gut reactions are central and I have noticed as I read that I have one alarm bell going. Just one.
> 
> We've been together 21 years, married for 18. I don't believe he is having an A now but I do wonder about the possibility... I'll tell you what I know... Is there something I can do?
> 
> ...


Hi Nicola12,
So sorry you find yourself here.

But you will get some good advice.

I am one of those people who goes with my gut instinct, to the point of ridiculous, I simply do not believe it will let me down, and so far it has not!

I too would have alarm bells ringing if I were you, and a few years ago I would say 'you know your H better than anyone else, and you know what he is capable of', but I can not say that any more.....I trusted my h and never believed whilst away on work travel he would ever cheat on me......even though there were times I would have a niggling doubt, I always shook it off and thought 'no way'. 

Err.....Yes way! (and my H was seemingly the most devoted H ever)

It is not controlling to not want your H going to meet another woman who you feel this way about. I would tell him how you feel and watch his reaction......closely! no eye contact fidgeting with hands near his mouth  becoming annoyed  you know the signs.

Classic signs also of a H on the prowl.......getting into shape etc.... worth a thought!

Has he told you he is meeting up with her for dinner or did you read that in email? Has he kept their chats or mails from you, is he open about her?

*ULTIMATELY* I think if he was thinking about getting up to something, and he sees your antenna is up then he will think twice!


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Nicola, this is a very dangerous situation. Contrary to what you might think (or what your husband might imply), you are NOT being paranoid or controlling. This woman is NOT a friend of your marriage (someone else recommended that you read Shirley Glass' book Not Just Friends, and I agree - great book). 

You are well within your rights to tell him that this situation makes you very uncomfortable, and he should respect and respond to that. He shouldn't say, "Oh, you're being silly, we're just friends!" If he does, he's being dismissive. He should address your concerns and discomfort.

Don't dismiss your gut feeling.


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## BeenthereDunThat (Nov 27, 2012)

Nicola, anytime a spouse is sharing private issues about their relationship with their primary partner I would suggest this is a bad sign. This is inappropriate and opens the door to EA's.

"I also know he has told her we are having problems (last year) and I feel uncomfortable with that."


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

First thing is STOP worrying about being controlling (I really hate that word) He's married, the other woman is married, and they're having a dinner date together. That should be unacceptable to you. So is talking about each other's marriage. There's a lot of bonding between them, so this can only get worse. EAs can escalate to PAs very quickly.

Is there some way you can get hold of his cell phone and look through the text messages? It sounds like the phone is through work, otherwise I'd suggest going online to the phone company website and peruse the records to find out how many calls there are between them. Just to get a true picture of how close they are and to have proof when you confront him.


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

The good people here highly suggest the book "His Needs Her Needs". I felt the book was spot on enough that I cried all the way through chapter 3.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Affair proof, almost entirely no, but avoid testing boundaries. To be successful one must run away from occasions where inappropriate and unnecessary communication/conduct is present. One cannot always rely on their iron will of being faithful to keep them from failing. Cheaters, for the most part, do not have intentions of going wayward at inception except when presented with an opportunity, deep down inside they want it and they test its boundaries, if it could fly. Cheaters knew all the little wrong things they were doing to escalate it until "I don't know what happened, how could it have gone so far, I never would have imagined myself..." etc.




> Originally Posted by F-102
> It may have gone something like this:
> 
> They first start catching up, and it's all "How you been doing? What have you been up to?"
> ...


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> Nicola, this is a very dangerous situation. Contrary to what you might think (or what your husband might imply), you are NOT being paranoid or controlling. This woman is NOT a friend of your marriage (someone else recommended that you read Shirley Glass' book Not Just Friends, and I agree - great book).
> 
> You are well within your rights to tell him that this situation makes you very uncomfortable, and he should respect and respond to that. He shouldn't say, "Oh, you're being silly, we're just friends!" If he does, he's being dismissive. He should address your concerns and discomfort.
> 
> Don't dismiss your gut feeling.


Great advice here except I would investigate quietly (emails, phone, texts, etc.) first before discussing with him, so he can't dismiss your concerns. You need to find the true picture of what's going on.

Edit: Even if there's no evidence, dinner between them should be unacceptable.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Inappropriate and unnecessary. What married man goes on a date with another woman in another state without his wife? What woman goes on a date with another man traveling in from another state without her husband? You are FAR from being controlling, in fact you are lacking. 

Tell your husband "This is ridiculous! Even if its just friends, it is inappropriate. If it was "just friends" I'd be invited, and we'd do it as a family. You yourself feel, deep down inside, attraction and you secretly want this to be pushed beyond the emotional threshold into the physical. Its a fantasy. That won't make you happy, it won't help her, or you, if you leave I WILL FILE FOR DIVORCE and I AM NOT BLUFFING"

Of course the capitalized letters do not mean yelling, they mean speaking slowly and clearly. You can't go back on your words. You need to push strong at first, and kill this EA (if it isn't already physical). He can't commit to you while getting flak from another woman through emails. Friends do not talk to each other behind their spouses' back. They talk to their spouse, they have TRANSPARENCY. They do not partake in secretive communication and set dates across states.


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## confused55 (Apr 30, 2011)

Nicola,

Why don't you suggest you go along with him on his trip if at all possible? 

If it is possible, I wonder what his reaction would be.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Nicola,

Years ago, my wife and a GF of hers traveled a few hundred miles to see an old HS BF that had a stroke and was in recovery. They all met for lunch and it was just a friendly visit. She didn't say much about it when she got home. They did exchange emails. They would email each other every few weeks. I didn't really think much of it. He was married with kids and had a sugery practice that he was trying to work back into. 

Long story short, a few months after this lunch, she was meeting him in hotels during the day (skipping out on work) for sex. This affair was off and on for years before I found out. 

Nicola, you husband is just way out of line. Married men should not have "friendships" with other women. Same for married women.


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## roostr (Oct 20, 2012)

I honestly dont think there is a fool proof way to prevent someone from making a bad choice. I guess the only thing you can do is try to maintain the boundaries that are mostly common sense. If you get resistance or critisized for trying to enforce these boundaries, then you will most likely have a problem. I think it is just "in" some people to cheat. I hate to hear the "it just happened" excuse. It happens because someone wanted it to happen. Its really a dice roll.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

RWB said:


> Nicola,
> 
> 
> 
> Nicola, you husband is just way out of line. Married men should not have "friendships" with other women. Same for married women.



Great, or live like single lads or ladies while being married, going out girls/boys nights out etc. There is plenty to read Nicola, spend a little bit of time reading threads of how cheaters always go by a script and how betrayed spouses always go by a BAD script. Learn what NOT to do.


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

roostr said:


> I honestly dont think there is a fool proof way to prevent someone from making a bad choice. I guess the only thing you can do is try to maintain the boundaries that are mostly common sense. If you get resistance or critisized for trying to enforce these boundaries, then you will most likely have a problem. *I think it is just "in" some people to cheat. I hate to hear the "it just happened" excuse. It happens because someone wanted it to happen.* Its really a dice roll.


The bolded part: I disagree. Lack of boundaries can cause someone to find themselves in an affair without setting out to do it. Often it's someone at work who you talk to a lot, and the conversations are fun, so you do it more, eventually you might cross a boundary into talking about your marriages, then more inappropriate talk, like about sex, because you feel more and more comfortable talking to this person, and you're bonding as this is going on, it feels good, it's addicting, you get the dopamine rush, and you can't stop. It becomes like a drug addiction. Affairs happen to 'good people' all the time.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Cubby said:


> The bolded part: I disagree. Lack of boundaries can cause someone to find themselves in an affair without setting out to do it. Often it's someone at work who you talk to a lot, and the conversations are fun, so you do it more, eventually you might cross a boundary into talking about your marriages, then more inappropriate talk, like about sex, because you feel more and more comfortable talking to this person, and you're bonding as this is going on, it feels good, it's addicting, you get the dopamine rush, and you can't stop. It becomes like a drug addiction. Affairs happen to 'good people' all the time.


Rubbish.

You don't "find yourself" having intercourse with someone that isn't your spouse.

That is a conscious decision and it is taken by a certain sort of person.

I've been begged for intercourse by women in the past; some of whom I have found attractive. Guess what? I CHOSE not to have sex with any of them.

I always rather thought that is what set humans aside from animals - you know, the ability not to start rutting with the first attractive human that walks past. The rest about "connections" is just window dressing.

Breaking vows is breaking vows. Cheating is cheating. If it's that important to "bond" with that "special person" then tell your spouse and see what they make of if first.

To imply that a person has more or less no choice in being unfaithful is insulting to the many people who manage to control their animal instincts and retain a shred of decency and self respect.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

To prevent and affair make sure that you A allow and insist on two way full transparency. 
Avoid making friends of the opposite sex unless you are friends by proxy of the man wife. 
IF you ever share something with a member of the opposite sex that you wouldn't tell your husband. Stop talking to that person. 

And last of all if you think your headed down the road of an affair tell your Loyal partner that you want a divorce. That will usually wake them up. 
But in reality there is not full proof way to prevent an affair because people are people. And given the right scenario and time anyone can fall into an Affair. The minute you don't think it is possible to have an affair or you change your definition of an affair to include someone in your life. You are likely stuck in an affair.


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> Rubbish.
> 
> You don't "find yourself" having intercourse with someone that isn't your spouse.
> 
> ...


I was thinking more in terms of 'emotional affairs' when I typed that up. For further information, see Shirley Glass' book "Not Just Friends." I'm not defending people who have affairs, but I will argue that not all cheaters set out to have an affair. For many, it was a gradual thing that escalated one step at a time. And yes, each crossing of a boundary is a conscious decision. I didn't say it wasn't. The point I'm making is that by going further and further and step by step into making inappropriate decisions, that yes, a person can 'find' themselves in cheating territory. A place they might not have wanted to find themselves many steps ago. Again, I'm speaking of emotional affairs here.

I'm a big believer in establishing firm boundaries and never crossing them. Getting back to the subject at hand, the OP's husband clearly doesn't have boundaries established and if he does, he's crossing the line in a big way.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Cubby said:


> I was thinking more in terms of 'emotional affairs' when I typed that up. For further information, see Shirley Glass' book "Not Just Friends." I'm not defending people who have affairs, but I will argue that not all cheaters set out to have an affair. For many, it was a gradual thing that escalated one step at a time. And yes, each crossing of a boundary is a conscious decision. I didn't say it wasn't. The point I'm making is that by going further and further and step by step into making inappropriate decisions, that yes, a person can 'find' themselves in cheating territory. A place they might not have wanted to find themselves many steps ago. Again, I'm speaking of emotional affairs here.


Erk. Sorry. I suppose I kind of went off the handle a bit there. Apologies, I just saw the word "affair" and thought you meant a PA. 

I do agree with you in that case. I shouldn't have been so quick off the mark there. My apologies.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Cubby said:


> The bolded part: I disagree. Lack of boundaries can cause someone to find themselves in an affair without setting out to do it. Often it's someone at work who you talk to a lot, and the conversations are fun, so you do it more, eventually you might cross a boundary into talking about your marriages, then more inappropriate talk, like about sex, because you feel more and more comfortable talking to this person, and you're bonding as this is going on, it feels good, it's addicting, you get the dopamine rush, and you can't stop. It becomes like a drug addiction. Affairs happen to 'good people' all the time.


:iagree:
Cheaters aren't born, they are made, and they allow themselves to become so.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> Erk. Sorry. I suppose I kind of went off the handle a bit there. Apologies, I just saw the word "affair" and thought you meant a PA.
> 
> I do agree with you in that case. I shouldn't have been so quick off the mark there. My apologies.


I read both of your posts and they practically project the same manner of thinking.

I definitely agree we are not animals, we have many more abilities to help understand cause and effect.

Simple cause and effect, I like your iron will to refrain from being coital with other women who even begged you.


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> Erk. Sorry. I suppose I kind of went off the handle a bit there. Apologies, I just saw the word "affair" and thought you meant a PA.
> 
> I do agree with you in that case. I shouldn't have been so quick off the mark there. My apologies.


Hey, no problem, Chris. I don't mind a vigorous discussion once in a while!


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## Nicola12 (Apr 1, 2013)

*Re: Is there a way to prevent an Affair?*

Okay wow. I've just woken up (I don't live in US) and H has taken the kids out so I've logged in... such a lot to think about and some hard advice to hear.

After reading the first couple of posts last night and seeing H was in an excellent mood I mentioned to him that when I realised he was going to this city that I also realised he would probably want to see his friend (the one I'm talking about).

Bride of Frank, no he hasn't (yet) mentioned this meeting to me... she did reply during the day yesterday to gmail and he doesn't usually check that account at work (I don't think). I could tell he hadn't yet seen it when I saw it, but I could read what was happening without opening it. I thought I'd go back later and see the conversation. 

So, before he would have had a chance to mention it to me that it was lined up, I said that I felt uncomfortable with her (as opposed to his other female friends) and I was worried that there would be a connection there that he would be seeking with her that he wouldn't be seeking with me. We spoke about that and we agreed that perhaps he could see her for coffee or lunch rather than dinner. I also requested that he not speak about 'us' in their conversation which he agreed (but who would really know). It was a pretty casual conversation and I was careful to not blame but just say what my concerns were. 

Now, here is the tricky bit. I think I brought this up about 5 minutes after he checked his email. I say this b/c of what I have just found out since looking at his account again. We both are relaxed about having our accounts lying around. There is an unspoken rule we wouldn't look at each others accounts but certainly there is no hiding. 

As we were watching some TV online last night, I noticed that he closed the tab to his email which has never happened. I assumed he felt uncomfortable with the conversation we had just had and that I knew he would have seen her response about dinner having just agreed to do lunch/coffee in our conversation. Fine.

I've just checked the account now (I feel awful doing it but understand from this site I better know where I am) and the email conversation is gone. I checked his 'sent' messages and it was also gone. However, it was there in the trash. I took a screen shot of the conversation and loaded it on a USB so I have it. The conversation went like this (bear in mind I think I had my conversation with him 5 minutes AFTER he responded to her):
_
H: I'm coming to * for a conference. Lunch or coffee?_
_Her: Um, no. I'll block out dinner. Yaaaaaah _(she is like that)
_H: Great, I'll leave work dinner early or skip it._

So, I guess my big question is whether he will respond to our conversation about only having coffee/lunch. Or will he actually have dinner with her. I will carefully read through your posts again.

To be honest, my gut feeling is about her. I think he is not looking for an EA but I don't trust her not to try and lure him towards her. And I feel he could be seduced. 

I also am curious as to whether he respects me enough to change his plans. My feeling is that what I will hear is 'oh, OW can only catch up in the evening'.

So theoretically, I have yet to hear about this meeting but I am sure I will hear about it. What I'm not sure about is that I'll hear exactly what happens.

We both have friends of the opposite sex but I am very careful and I tell H about what we talk about etc etc. 

Can I go on the trip? Not really. We have 3 kids and my family are away at the moment.

I've tried looking at his work phone (which doesn't seem to show anything suspicious) but it is so fiddly I am nervous of leaving tracks.

Thank you so much for your comments and thoughts. Our marriage is quite tenuous at the moment anyway so part of me I think may even be looking for a reason to leave but that is another story. Being on the site, makes me realise I should not open my mouth too quickly and collect things. It's not so much what is said in their few emails but how things are said - they kind of have a casual 'flirt' factor to them and I think it is this more than anything that makes me uncomfortable.

I'll see what is said to me and let you know. I'll also get hold of the book that has been mentioned a few times. 

Sorry for the long post.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Thanks for the update.

Please don't make the mistake of "blaming" the other woman here.

It looks to me as though your husband is well aware of the fact that this relationship has crossed some sort of line. It is precisely what is described so well in Shirley Glass's book "Just Good Friends".

I believe you have more to worry about here than you are admitting to yourself.

It looks to me as though you are doing all you can, however, but don't "let your guard down".

There is a certain mindset that would deliberately go to dinner if you "forbade" it so much of this is of course about how you interact with your husband.

Your post was not, by the way, "long". It was well written, thoughtful and informative. Thanks for updating


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

*Re: Is there a way to prevent an Affair?*



Nicola12 said:


> Okay wow. I've just woken up (I don't live in US) and H has taken the kids out so I've logged in... such a lot to think about and some hard advice to hear.
> 
> After reading the first couple of posts last night and seeing H was in an excellent mood I mentioned to him that when I realised he was going to this city that I also realised he would probably want to see his friend (the one I'm talking about).
> 
> ...


Hi Nicola

May I ask.....why is your marriage 'quite tenuous' at the moment...

It seems from what you have already posted that you and H are/or have been having a few issues maybe? You mentioned 'control' and that you are working through this and trying to make more of a stand.......in what way is H controlling?

Maybe if you could give some more back ground to your marriage and H general nature...do you work?....I know you have children.....all adds to the jigsaw.

Hope you're feeling Ok tonight.

x


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## Flygirl (Apr 9, 2013)

I would not be ok with my husband having dinner with any woman ever. Unless he was related to her or I was there. Can you go with him on his trip? If my husband was exchanging emails with a woman, I'd expect him to share them with me at the very least and they better be about business. Listen to your instincts!


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## PastOM (Apr 12, 2013)

Nicola12 said:


> My alarm bells have always gone off around a particular professional colleague of my H. She is beautiful, takes no s*** and very touchy, feely. She has also put me down with backhanded compliments in the past. My H has tons of female friends and I feel very comfortable with all of them except this one.


Very sorry about your anguish.

Q: Why is he communicating with a professional colleague on a personal email address?

It sounds like he has already started an EA. He has already shared details about your M, and he's started to cover his tracks. This trip may be designed to progress from EA to PA. 

You may want to think about this. H is leaving email in trash for you to find, while communicating with her through other means. It's pretty obvious to delete the trash to get rid of emails. Creating "plausible deniability" is the master craft of the cheater. He may not be totally over the edge, but it sounds to me as though it's heading down that road.

My suggestion is to tell him that you want the name and room number of his hotel. Make sure you have a Skype call with him in the middle of the night - camera on, shown around the room. Does he have an iPhone? Use Find My Phone to see where he is and for how long.

Nip this in the bud. Sorry - it all sounds too familiar.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Chris989 said:


> Rubbish.
> 
> You don't "find yourself" having intercourse with someone that isn't your spouse.
> 
> That is a conscious decision and it is taken by a certain sort of person.


You're saying that the huge percentage of married people who cheat on their spouses were just born as psychopaths without empathy for their spouses? I disagree.

I don't think cheaters are monsters. And I don't think loyal spouses are saints. Good people can do bad things.



> I always rather thought that is what set humans aside from animals - you know, the ability not to start rutting with the first attractive human that walks past. The rest about "connections" is just window dressing.


But that's not how most affairs happen. Most married people who stray don't just wake up in a blissful marriage and think, "Today is the day I cheat on my spouse with the first willing partner I can find." Affairs happen in increments. There are degrees of disloyalty. And people can justify them all the way until they're taking off their clothes.



> To imply that a person has more or less no choice in being unfaithful is insulting to the many people who manage to control their animal instincts and retain a shred of decency and self respect.


Nobody has said that human beings don't have free will. But it's just stupid to insist that a human beings willpower is infinite. Would you suggest an alcoholic hang out in a bar? Would you suggest a drug addict hang out in a crack house? Hell, I wouldn't even suggest a non-addict hang out in a crack house. You might be tempted to try an addictive drug and make the wrong choice.

Similarly, I think that married people, especially those in marriages that are less than rock solid, should avoid crossing boundaries and creating emotional connections with people who could, eventually, prove to be willing affair partners. It's just being smart.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> You're saying that the huge percentage of married people who cheat on their spouses were just born as psychopaths without empathy for their spouses? I disagree.
> 
> I don't think cheaters are monsters. And I don't think loyal spouses are saints. Good people can do bad things.
> 
> ...


I fundamentally disagree with several of your points. To compare an affair with "trying the wrong drug" is the language of somebody who believes in the myth that betrayal is a symptom of a "bad" marriage.

_*I do want to make it clear, however, that I am talking just about physical affairs here. As I mentioned in my earlier apology, I agree with all of the above if it is talking about emotional affairs.*_

If you take a drug, you are not ruining your life there and then, at that instant. If you have sex with somebody outside of your marriage, you are. 

You cannot "uncheat", but you can stop taking drugs. Taking a drug is between you and your maker. Having sex with somebody outside of your marriage is very much between you and your spouse as much as it is about the other party involved.

It is an either/or thing, though. You know the second the affair goes physical then all bets are off. You can never undo that act. Any sane adult will realise that that has enormous consequences. Clearly, to repeat the act and express love for the other person are, at each turn, no turning back events.

Betrayal causes immense pain. I can only go from my own experience that it causes pain way beyond any physical pain I have ever felt and puts simple grief well into the shade.

If you betray then you have made a conscious decision to put your wants over somebody else's pain. 

It would be very easy, before you have sex with somebody else, to go home and tell your current partner that it's over. If you choose to cheat you choose not do this. This is a Bad Thing. 

How come if I chose, for example, to hit my partner and cause temporary physical pain (not acceptable of course in any circumstances) I would be thought of in a far worse light than a spouse that can betray and cause very real physical and emotional pain - together with scars that will never heal?

Both actions are made as a conscious choice and both actions are known to cause painful consequences.

I won't threadjack further but nor will I ever accept that people who cheat physically have not caused immense damage to others in pursuit of their own pleasure and that this was a _*conscious decision*_.


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## PastOM (Apr 12, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> I fundamentally disagree with several of your points. To compare an affair with "trying the wrong drug" is the language of somebody who believes in the myth that betrayal is a symptom of a "bad" marriage.


You make a loads of sense, but even PA can be insidious. One take on the same idea is what I posted: 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ure-thinking-having-affair-8.html#post1613619


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Chris989 said:


> I fundamentally disagree with several of your points. To compare an affair with "trying the wrong drug" is the language of somebody who believes in the myth that betrayal is a symptom of a "bad" marriage.


Fair enough. We can agree to disagree. But I do think that affairs generally happen in bad marriages.



> _*I do want to make it clear, however, that I am talking just about physical affairs here. As I mentioned in my earlier apology, I agree with all of the above if it is talking about emotional affairs.*_


I think both emotional affairs and physical affairs are entered into by degrees. I have been on this board for a while and I can't think of an example where a happy marriage was wrecked because one spouse decided, out of the blue and with no warning whatsoever, to cheat. It may happen. But it's not the typical case.



> If you take a drug, you are not ruining your life there and then, at that instant. If you have sex with somebody outside of your marriage, you are.


Right. But the purpose of my analogy isn't that the aftermath of an affair is exactly like that of a drug. I'm talking about the decision making process.

For example, I have children. I will try to encourage my children to socialize with good kids and limit their exposure to bad kids. That's because peer pressure is real. Bad kids encourage other kids to make poor decisions. Whether that decision is to do drugs, or drop out of school, or have sex at an early age, or whatever.

And studies show that many poor decision in adults, such as adultery, are similarly influenced by peer groups. If your wife's best friend cheats on her husband and then divorces him, watch out. It's a proven fact that environment affects decisions.



> Any sane adult will realise that that has enormous consequences.


Sure. But I've never seen a single case where a disloyal spouse admitted to soberly weighing the pros and cons of cheating, expected to get caught, and did it anyway. Most of the cases on this board were people just being stupid and thinking they could get away with it.



> If you betray then you have made a conscious decision to put your wants over somebody else's pain.


Yes. But it's foolish to think that people make decisions based on consequences. Often, they don't. Fat people don't overeat because they want to be fat and they understand that the best way to remain fat is to eat too much. They start small, gain a few pounds, and rationalize to themselves that a couple of more cookies won't make that much of a difference. Before long, they're eating unreasonable amounts and they've packed on a lot of weight.

That's the way affairs go. They start small. They're not cheating. They're just making a friend. Then, they're just talking on the phone to their friend. Then, they're just eating lunch with their friend. Then, they're talking multiple times a day with their friend. Then, they're complaining about their spouses to each other. Eventually, and by small increments, they've come to the point where taking their clothes off is a small step. Yes, it's a consequential one. But emotionally, it's a small distance for them to travel.



> I won't threadjack further but nor will I ever accept that people who cheat physically have not caused immense damage to others in pursuit of their own pleasure and that this was a _*conscious decision*_.


I agree completely that affairs are injurious. Nobody ever argued that cheating, whether emotional or physical, was a good thing. It's not. It's bad. I'm just taking issue with the notion that only psychopaths cheat on their spouses. And also with the notion that physical affairs just spring forth, fully formed, like Athena from the forehead of Zeus. If that is how physical affairs happen, then you would be correct to believe that only monsters would engage in physical affairs. But you're wrong. Physical affairs are usually gradual. They are usually subtle.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

My point is that, unlike emotional affairs and unlike hanging around with the wrong sorts and unlike a slow descent into addiction, a physical affair has a very definite before and after moment.

I don't doubt that you can fall in love with somebody else by degrees. You can't have sex by degrees - you either do, or you don't.

You don't get married by degrees. There's a big day. There are vows. Before the vows, you aren't married. After - you are.

People don't "slip into" marriage either.

An adult is capable of understanding when an affair becomes physical. It is a basic right or wrong, before and after, thing.

It is akin to saying the burglars "slip into it". Before they enter a home they are not a burglar. After, they are.

You can be as emotionally involved as you like before an affair turns physical and I do believe that that is a circumstance that anyone can find themselves in. If you want to have sex with a person that is not your spouse, then end the marriage first.

That is a moral issue. It is black and white. There is no shade of grey. People who cheat have the choice to end their marriage first. In every single case they choose not to. That is because they are too selfish to do so.

In my eyes, that means they have a certain character trait. Some people have this trait, some people don't.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Chris989 said:


> My point is that, unlike emotional affairs and unlike hanging around with the wrong sorts and unlike a slow descent into addiction, a physical affair has a very definite before and after moment.


I just don't see it as black and white as you do. If a married woman is kissing another man, cuddling with him, and telling him that she loves him, that's over my line. The fact that she may not have had his unit in her hands yet would be of little consolation.



> I don't doubt that you can fall in love with somebody else by degrees. You can't have sex by degrees - you either do, or you don't.


President Clinton would disagree with you.



> You don't get married by degrees. There's a big day. There are vows. Before the vows, you aren't married. After - you are.
> 
> People don't "slip into" marriage either.


Of course you do. For most people, you meet, you date, you court, you get engaged, and then you marry. You don't just pick out some girl the bus, say, "You'll do," and take her to the courthouse for nuptials.



> It is akin to saying the burglars "slip into it". Before they enter a home they are not a burglar. After, they are.


So, in your mind, a man dressed in black, wearing a ski mask with a crowbar hiding in the bushes outside your house is just an innocent party until he climbs in the window? I disagree. I would not classify him as innocent. Especially if he has spent weeks casing the joint and recruiting help for the big job.



> You can be as emotionally involved as you like before an affair turns physical and I do believe that that is a circumstance that anyone can find themselves in.


So innocent people can find themselves cuddling with other people and professing their love for them without being psychopaths. But when you make the very slight transition from professing love to having sex, that's the line that only psychopaths can cross? Again, I disagree.



> If you want to have sex with a person that is not your spouse, then end the marriage first.


Sure. Nobody's arguing that ending the marriage first isn't better than cheating.



> In my eyes, that means they have a certain character trait. Some people have this trait, some people don't.


Again, you're wrong. All people have the capacity for sin. I am yet to meet a saint in the real world. The fact that around 40% of marriages encounter infidelity doesn't suggest to me an epidemic of psychopathy. It is a moral breakdown, yes. It means that people aren't enforcing proper boundaries.


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## Nicola12 (Apr 1, 2013)

Okay - so actually this thread is going to be redundant now as after 21 years together we have spilt up. I guess I don't have to worry about this trip now! LOL! 

I am going to continue my 'story' on the considering separation divorce thread now under 'In two minds' which I started last week. 

Feeling pretty rotten right now.

Thanks for the discussion and feedback here though.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

Nicola12 said:


> Okay - so actually this thread is going to be redundant now as after 21 years together we have spilt up. I guess I don't have to worry about this trip now! LOL!
> 
> I am going to continue my 'story' on the considering separation divorce thread now under 'In two minds' which I started last week.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that you have seperated nicola.....I will follow your other thread, hope you are OK?

You can still post here......


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Sorry to hear that Nicola12. If you think there has been infidelity, it might be worth posting on here.


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