# Post Nuptial Agreement



## VHVGN (Nov 24, 2015)

I have been married for 14 months to a woman who is 22 years younger than me (I am 55 she 33) and who has an 11 year child from her first marriage (I am her third). We have worked through some issues, as all couples do, especially the first year. One thing I neglected to do was suggest a prenuptial agreement before we got married. The reality of life and the divorce laws are what they are - irrespective of love and commitment. So realist that I am, we are working with our attorneys on constructing a post nuptial. I view this as something that all couples should have for a variety of reasons - divorce or death of a spouse, or anything that might bring complicated legal matters. I am wondering what other couples have done in this regards (pre or post nuptials) and how that has affected their relationship? My wife is a relatively recent immigrant (6 years ago) from Eastern Europe and is not familiar with these type of agreements.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

What is the goal of the prenup? 

How does she feel about it? 

And what was the catalyst for you wanting a post nup? 

Usually in a case like this, it's a trust issue. 





VHVGN said:


> I have been married for 14 months to a woman who is 22 years younger than me (I am 55 she 33) and who has an 11 year child from her first marriage (I am her third). We have worked through some issues, as all couples do, especially the first year. One thing I neglected to do was suggest a prenuptial agreement before we got married. The reality of life and the divorce laws are what they are - irrespective of love and commitment. So realist that I am, we are working with our attorneys on constructing a post nuptial. I view this as something that all couples should have for a variety of reasons - divorce or death of a spouse, or anything that might bring complicated legal matters. I am wondering what other couples have done in this regards (pre or post nuptials) and how that has affected their relationship? My wife is a relatively recent immigrant (6 years ago) from Eastern Europe and is not familiar with these type of agreements.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Whatever you place within the embodiment of a pre or post-nup, make damn good and sure to place a morality clause, specifying that which ever partner is caught in an illicit marital affair, that they automatically concede all rights in any joint property acquired during the scope of their union and also concede any claim to any alimony or child custody or support ~ in essence, if they cheat, they lose damn near everything!

With that firmly in place, you can bet your sweet backside that there will either be a nasty trial or a quick voluntary concession!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

VHVGN said:


> I have been married for 14 months to a woman who is 22 years younger than me (I am 55 she 33) and who has an 11 year child from her first marriage (I am her third). We have worked through some issues, as all couples do, especially the first year. One thing I neglected to do was suggest a prenuptial agreement before we got married. The reality of life and the divorce laws are what they are - irrespective of love and commitment. So realist that I am, we are working with our attorneys on constructing a post nuptial. I view this as something that all couples should have for a variety of reasons - divorce or death of a spouse, or anything that might bring complicated legal matters. I am wondering what other couples have done in this regards (pre or post nuptials) and how that has affected their relationship? My wife is a relatively recent immigrant (6 years ago) from Eastern Europe and is not familiar with these type of agreements.


Well death of a spouse should be covered in their Will. 

Who would sign a post nuptial agreement? Are you asking her now she is married to sign away her rights to your estate should you pass away?

That almost sounds as if you have changed your mind and you're looking to limit what she can do when you leave.

Is there a reason for this and does she have her own lawyer representing her interests?


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## ricky15100 (Oct 23, 2013)

Issues in the first year? Married twice already? 22 years younger? Yikes!!! Good luck, wish you the best

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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

ricky15100 said:


> Issues in the first year? Married twice already? 22 years younger? Yikes!!! Good luck, wish you the best


I had the same reaction, especially when I saw this...



VHVGN said:


> My wife is a relatively recent immigrant (6 years ago) from Eastern Europe...


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## ricky15100 (Oct 23, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> I had the same reaction, especially when I saw this...


Christ!! I didn't get that far, well it certainly won't be dull, that's a given

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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

Sounds like papa is getting a little grief from his kids for marrying a tender-roonie. 

Kind of a ****ty move to do this after the fact but if your goal is to protect pre marital assets as an estate for your other children/family and you present it to her like that maybe it will go OK. If you are denying her rights or limiting her rights to assets acquired during the marriage she would be a fool to sign without guarantees of a financial settlement.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I am all for prenups now. Both men and women should have one and be mandatory. I have no idea why you didn't think of this before marriage? At your age with these issues and concerns that should have been a no brainier. I honestly don't know how valid a post nup will be. In some places prenups arent worth the paper you print them on. Honestly most people don't really understand what prenups even protect. good thing you are working with a lawyer and she is agreeable to this


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Might be a big problem. A prenup would have been reasonable and even advisable in your case. You married a woman 22 yrs younger than you with a dependent child and a history of 2 marriages that lasted about 6 yrs each. How are things going in your marriage? 

What leverage do you have at this point to get your wife to agree to terms. Why would she deprive herself and her child of the financial security I am sure she anticipated upon marrying you? Did she do something bad?


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Don't these types of agreements expire after several years of marriage anyway? Like 10 years or something?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Shaking head in disbelief. 

It IS a fact that really rich folks sometimes include this type clause. The clause specifies a financial consequence. But it's 'reasonable'.

For Michael Douglas, net worth at the time 200 million, Catherine Zeta Jones insisted on a 5 million dollar cheating payment if he cheated. In addition to what she'd get otherwise. 

And to my knowledge it is enforceable provided you have actual proof of such conduct. 

However - if you were to create and execute a pre or post nup that excluded child support. And/or totally eliminated any type alimony, the court would likely throw the ENTIRE agreement out. 

There can be a consequence for cheating. It simply can't be used as a mechanism to go below a certain 'floor' of support. Said floor varies greatly by state. 

FCS I thought it was an outlier - this idea that folks should get some version of the death penalty for cheating. M2 thinks that way but like I said, I thought that was a quirk. 

Apparently a big chunk of the populace feels this way. 







arbitrator said:


> *Whatever you place within the embodiment of a pre or post-nup, make damn good and sure to place a morality clause, specifying that which ever partner is caught in an illicit marital affair, that they automatically concede all rights in any joint property acquired during the scope of their union and also concede any claim to any alimony or child custody or support ~ in essence, if they cheat, they lose damn near everything!
> 
> With that firmly in place, you can bet your sweet backside that there will either be a nasty trial or a quick voluntary concession!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Shaking head in disbelief.
> 
> It IS a fact that really rich folks sometimes include this type clause. The clause specifies a financial consequence. But it's 'reasonable'.
> 
> ...


*It would work if your attorney rolled the dice on the fact that you would have a better than average chance to get custody of the kids, more especially if a moral turpitude agreement is effectively signed by both of the parties. Having said that, there would have to be a legal showdown on the adultery issue! 

And quite frankly, it may be the only procedural way to get there as most judges will not hear those merits unless it has been included within the embodiment of a marriage contract!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I do believe that in order for the agreement to stand up in court, each of you will have to have your own attorney to represent you.

For example, all she would need to do to get it thrown out upon divorce or your death is to say that she was a fairly new immigrant who did not know how things work here, and you convinced her to not have an attorney. 

Since someone brought this up... child support cannot be written off. Child support is a child's right.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I have a question, whose idea was it to marry? I don't see the advantage of marriage for you unless you want children. It's very advantageous for her but very risky for you. You could have lived together just as easily.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

@VHVGN,
Why did you start this thread if you aren't willing to contribute to it?






Catherine602 said:


> I have a question, whose idea was it to marry? I don't see the advantage of marriage for you unless you want children. It's very advantageous for her and risky for you You could have lived together just as easily.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

All,

I'm going to let this thread run another couple days. If however the OP continues to remain silent, I will be locking it after that. 

This sort of topic 'can' attract trolls. And so - if it isn't benefitting anyone than I'll file it under the category of 'attractive nuisance' and lock it down. 





MEM11363 said:


> @VHVGN,
> Why did you start this thread if you aren't willing to contribute to it?


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## VHVGN (Nov 24, 2015)

Sorry for my silence. Was a busy weekend. It was my idea to marry. True we could have lived together. The child is not mine - it is hers from her first marriage. I believe she is sincere in not wanting anything from me if things don't work out. The problems is the court system in this state and probably most of the United States uses basic formulas for everything. I have heard some horror stories. I agree this is something I should have proposed before we got married but neglected to. Anyway, post nuptials are binding in my state if both parties have attorneys.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I don't see what you have to lose by trying on a post nup. My SO and I agreed on a prenup. It was expected by us both.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Courts usually only use those formulas to divide assets if couples are fighting over assets in the divorce. Most states are fine with any arrangement you both agree upon before the papers are signed. But if she wants nothing now, and changes her mind if she actually leaves, THEN the courts will be involved in how to divide assets.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

NoSizeQueen said:


> Courts usually only use those formulas to divide assets if couples are fighting over assets in the divorce. *Most states are fine with any arrangement you both agree upon before the papers are signed. * But if she wants nothing now, and changes her mind if she actually leaves, THEN the courts will be involved in how to divide assets.


Is this true In other areas of the country? I cant speak for any other but Colorado uses the basic formula and nothing more. Doesn't matter If the divorcing parents agreed to anything else as I found out myself the hard way. I'm glad to know that other areas aren't so rigid.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Wolf1974 said:


> Is this true In other areas of the country? I cant speak for any other but Colorado uses the basic formula and nothing more. Doesn't matter If the divorcing parents agreed to anything else as I found out myself the hard way. I'm glad to know that other areas aren't so rigid.


It may depend on circumstances. My divorce (North Carolina) was uncontested, and we were both given several changes to ask for alimony or division of assets. We didn't, and we were never even asked how assets were actually divided. If nobody complained, the court didn't want to be bothered with it.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

NoSizeQueen said:


> It may depend on circumstances. My divorce (North Carolina) was uncontested, and we were both given several changes to ask for alimony or division of assets. We didn't, and we were never even asked how assets were actually divided. If nobody complained, the court didn't want to be bothered with it.


Interesting. Our divorce was also uncontested but because what we agreed to for child support was not in line with the Colorado formula it had to be changed. When I stated to the judge I couldn't afford what the "formula" wanted me to pay he looked right at me as said I don't care. That of course sent me defensive and I asked him "so let me get this straight it's better for me to pay this extra 500$ a month and loose my house then ? So my kids can come visit me in a cardboard box is that correct"? Again looked at me and said I don't care. 

The judge also felt that my X not asking for alimony was a mistake on her part. In Colorado if you don't have it awarded at the hearing you can never go back and ask for it again. At the time I had leverage over my X so she wouldn't ask for alimony. But he asked her 4 times if she understood and was sure that's what she wanted to do. Yeah good times. I'm glad to hear other areas of the country aren't as backwards at Colorado With this stuff.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

NC also considers the signing of the divorce judgment to be the last chance for alimony. I was told that I could pursue child support at any time, and asked if I wanted to pursue it then (I did not, as we had already reached an agreement). I was never asked what our child support or custody agreement actually was, we were only asked if it was settled or not.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Wolf1974 said:


> Is this true In other areas of the country? I cant speak for any other but Colorado uses the basic formula and nothing more. Doesn't matter If the divorcing parents agreed to anything else as I found out myself the hard way. I'm glad to know that other areas aren't so rigid.


I know it is true in New Mexico.

A couple can draw up their own divorce settlement & file it themselves. It is then sent to a judge and the judge signs it. 

The only time that the judge would not is if one person objects to what was filed or there are children involved. 

When there are children, the child support settlement has to follow state guidelines.

I've done the divorce papers for myself and some friends when they are both in agreement .. basically I type them up in the court required format, help them research what needs to be done, etc. (So no I'm not practicing law  ) No judge has ever cared one way or the other on the settlement since there were not children involved.

The divorce from my second husband cost me the $135 filing fee and the cost of a few sheets of paper and toner.

The divorce from my first husband cost me over $40,000 because he kept fighting everything. He spent as much or more. In the end he got less than I originally offered when I did all the paperwork myself.

Generally, when a divorce costs a lot, it is because lawyers talk their client into a piss fight. And then the lawyer sits back racking in the money. 

Every state has an online self help site that includes divorce with the forms, instructions, calculators for child support, etc.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

VHVGN,

What is it that you think she will be able to hold over you or take away from you?

Does she work? If so, what percent of your joint income does she earn?

Does your state recognize sole property... like all the assets, cash, inheritance, etc you had before you married her?

Have you mixed the money and assets that you had before marriage with income you have earned after marriage?

Does she have any assets that are her sole property?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

NoSizeQueen said:


> NC also considers the signing of the divorce judgment to be the last chance for alimony. I was told that I could pursue child support at any time, and asked if I wanted to pursue it then (I did not, as we had already reached an agreement). I was never asked what our child support or custody agreement actually was, we were only asked if it was settled or not.


Holy crap that would be awesome. Just not so everywhere


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## VHVGN (Nov 24, 2015)

We do not have children together. The child is hers. I own a condo which I rent out currently ( too small for the three of us) and we rent our home now. I have a 401 k and pension. Not much joint property. But she has very high medical bills due to a serious past illness which are choking us financially. So much for our lovely healthcare system in the U S. I work for one of the largest pharma companies in the world - and even with that, our copays and out of pockets are horrendous. This state is not community property but does have an alimony formula that they use based on disparity in income. She does work, but her income is less than half of mine.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

In Aus we don't have alimony. Well, it's there but only ever granted in extremely extenuating circumstances, such as one parent is carer to a disabled child for example. In all honesty, in those cases the parent paying the alimony most likely wouldn't have a problem with it - I wouldn't...the child won't get better care than with their own parent.

We shake our heads when we read about someone being granted lifetime alimony, wow!

Ideally, custody should be 50/50, with all costs related directly to the children split 50/50 between the parents. Parents should be responsible for their own housing/utility costs. There shouldn't be a need for child support in those circumstances. That's how it is for us.


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## dignityhonorpride (Jan 2, 2014)

My husband and I came to the marriage with very different financial backgrounds. After we got married we considered a post-nup, but we were told (by the lawyer we called on to write the agreement) that, unlike prenups, they are rarely enforced. Before you spend the money, call around and make sure it will be enforceable in your jurisdiction. 

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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

NoSizeQueen said:


> Courts usually only use those formulas to divide assets if couples are fighting over assets in the divorce. Most states are fine with any arrangement you both agree upon before the papers are signed. But if she wants nothing now, and changes her mind if she actually leaves, THEN the courts will be involved in how to divide assets.


*If either party to a D makes an in-court statement or declaration greatly to the effect that they "want nothing now," that's usually exactly what the presiding judge will give them!

But if they come back a little later on saying that they have now changed their mind and want/need to reconsider, the vast majority of those family court judges will gleefully inform them that they are now pretty much SOL! They should have struck when the iron was hot!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VHVGN (Nov 24, 2015)

In my state, Post Nuptials are binding provided both parties have retained counsel, as well as nothing being grossly unfair.


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