# It's been 20 years, should I just let it go?



## 20PlusYears

Sorry long post...I'm know in my heart that I'm most likely being irrational and stupid. My wife and I have been married over 23 yrs, together for over 25 yrs. Like most marriages we've had our ups and downs. However, I think our ups greatly surpasses our downs. We have 4 children together, ages 8,11,15, and 19. We both are successful professionals and have a great life together. You're probably wondering why then am I posting here?…which is a great question.

I've been lurking on this site now for quite sometime, reading post of others in hopes of affair proofing my marriage. There have been no suspicions or red flags, just thought that I would make sure that I do what I can to make the best of our marriage. Now, getting to the crux of my post today…20 years ago when my wife was doing a lot of traveling for her job, she was assigned to a project that kept her in Hawaii for 3 months. During that time we were having some arguments, mostly about the amount of travel her job required.

Anyway, I went to visit and stay with her for a week after she'd been there a couple of months. She seemed a little distant, but I just attributed that to the issues that we were dealing with. At that time I didn't see or sense anything out of the norm. Fast forward a couple of months after she returned from her trip, we had recently moved to another state where she would be permanently working out, which meant no more travel. Things were really going good for us and we were getting along famously.

One evening she asked me to attend a function with her that I didn’t want to go to, I'm not sure if it was guilt or what, but she kind of jokingly said that her friend would have taken her. I enquired as to who this friend was. This is when she told me about her affair while in Hawaii. She said that they had not had sex but that they had kissed and it was over. She was not in-love with this guy and wanted to be with me. I repeatedly questioned her about the extent of the affair, but she always and still says that there was no sex.

We were really young in our early 20's and had only been married for 2 years. It took some time but I decided to stay with her and make a life with her. It took years to get to the point that I could fully trust her again. She was remorseful and did all that I ask and still does to be open and transparent with me. I truly love this woman, even if it's not the way that it was prior to this incident.

Now to the crux of my issue and why I'm posting my story. As I've mentioned, I've been on this site reading a lot of post. It appears that there is a common theme where WS tells the BS that the affair only consisted of a kiss, only to be informed by the veterans on this forum that it was probably much more and later discovered through FB, Text, email, that sex was indeed part of the affair. Unfortunately, during my time, we didn't have all of these tools to catch a lying spouse. All I had was her word to rely on.

Now to my question, at this point, after all of these years, should I even care? She's been a model wife for the most part for over 20 years. If it went beyond kissing to making out with petting and fondling minus the act of sexual intercourse, does it matter now that I have already decided to reconcile and have created a family with her.

If I were to discover that it went well beyond kissing, should I say that this would have been a deal breaker for me then and I should no longer feel obliged to continue with our marriage? Or am I being a douche bag and should just let it go and move on and enjoy the life we've built?

You guys give really insightful advice and I would be greatly appreciative of some good counsel from you learned posters.


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## angrybuttrying

at this point, let it go. why let it impact the marriage? you've reconciled, a long time ago, and now have 20+ years of life together with children, etc. Seems like the time to make this decision was back then, not now. Just my 2 cents...


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## tom67

Well her saying they didn't have sex I find that one hard to believe. It sounds like you sort of rug swept this and some resentment is building up. Strange that she was going to go to that work function with the guy she had an affair with.


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## tom67

Just curious was she pregnant shortly after coming back from hawaii? Just something to think about.


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## SadSamIAm

I don't know what happened with your wife when she was in Hawaii. She may or may not have had sex with this guy. I think the last 20 years having a great marriage should count for something. It is a shame if you let this affect your marriage now.

I was away at a convention a few years back. Had a bunch of people (clients) in our room. I was discussing a work issue with a woman while this party was going on. She was younger than me and attractive. We talked for an hour or two. It got to be 3:00am and everyone had left leaving just me, my employees and this woman. She asked if she could spend the night as her room was in another hotel across the street and she didn't want to walk there alone at night. She slept beside me on a double bed. 

Now if my wife was telling this story on TAM, I am sure many would say that we probably had sex.

Truth is we didn't even touch each other. We both had our clothes on and we slept on top of the covers. An employee of mine was sleeping in the bed next to us. 

It is possible that your wife met a guy that she hung out with and had a friendship with but didn't sleep with.


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## Burned

Sure seems like it's still bothering you. How would you react today if you found out she did have sex? Do you trust her? Are you really prepared for the answer?


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## 20PlusYears

Just to clear up a few things.

The guy she had the affair with did not work with her. He was not attending the function; she had already left Hawaii at this time. She was just making a statement that if he were there he would have gone with her.

As for the pregnancy, we had our first child a year after DDay, so no question as to the who the father is.


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## Hicks

I guess I would look at it this way.

There are two types of cheating.

1. A set of circumstances that someone gets wrapped up in... the "could happen to anyone" type.
2. A bad person who doesn't care about hurting others

I think that you wife was young, pretty, in a sexual time, and away from you for 3 months.. A circumstancial thing that you know will not be repeated.

Then to top it off, you chose to stick with her, you always knew she could be lying and you chose to have children.

Is it that important to your male pride to assure that no one else ever had sex with her? Or, can you chalk it up to a circumstance that went too far.

To me, it's not unlike really any guy married for 20 years starting to wonder what his wife did sexually with other men before they were married.... As a man you have to rise above your insecurities, accept the decisions you made in the past, and give your wife and family 100%.


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## 20PlusYears

SadSamIAm this is what my wife tells me that just because this is what most people did doesn't mean she did the same thing.


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## harrybrown

Talk this over with her. Would she take a polygraph? Maybe you could talk to her partner and see what he says without her knowing. It has been a long time, but you should have all the truth that you can get to help you with your decisions. How do you know she has not had any contact in all this time?


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## 20PlusYears

Burned, I guess that is a valid question...I truly don't know the answer to that question.

Hicks, you're excactly right. It's more of a pride thing to me. I sometimes feel like I was weak for taking her back. That there is some guy thinking hey, i was able to take this dude wife. I know that it's my issue not hers.


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## cj9947

"Trust In Thy Gut"...something deep down is telling you there is a problem. Do not ignore it. Dig and find out what the reality of your marriage is.


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## 20PlusYears

I'm confident that there has been no contact. She told me that the last contact she had with him was a week after she got back to let him know that we were doing fine together. Not sure why she needed to inform him about our relationship.


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## KanDo

Get over it. You will never know for sure and 20 years of a good marriage should not be poisoned because of your late recognition of how affairs go.


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## 20PlusYears

I guess what I really trying to answer is...what if it was more. At this point does it really matter. My head tells me no...but maybe my insecurities is saying HELL YEAH it matters


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## tom67

Did something happen recently to trigger this memory, just wondering the timing of all this now.


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## SadSamIAm

20PlusYears said:


> SadSamIAm this is what my wife tells me that just because this is what most people did doesn't mean she did the same thing.


I told my wife about what happened at the conference. I wish I never did, because she doesn't believe me 100%. One time she will say she does, but when having an argument she will say something like, "Why don't you go sleep with Betty?" 

Don't let this affect what sounds like a great marriage. You will probably never know what happened. You may always have doubts. My advice is that if you have decided to stay, then keep your doubts and feelings to yourself. Love your wife!


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## 20PlusYears

SadSamIAm said:


> I told my wife about what happened at the conference. I wish I never did, because she doesn't believe me 100%. One time she will say she does, but when having an argument she will say something like, "Why don't you go sleep with Betty?"
> 
> Don't let this affect what sounds like a great marriage. You will probably never know what happened. You may always have doubts. My advice is that if you have decided to stay, then keep your doubts and feelings to yourself. Love your wife!


I know that you are right...Sometimes, I feel like i'm trying to sabotage my marriage bringing this up. This site is like a double edge sword for me. There are some good post that are helpful, but there are a lot of triggers as well.


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## Hicks

20PlusYears said:


> I guess what I really trying to answer is...what if it was more. At this point does it really matter. My head tells me no...but maybe my insecurities is saying HELL YEAH it matters


What does the well being of your children tell you?


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## tom67

Get a session or 2 of ic that might help.


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## 20PlusYears

Hicks said:


> What does the well being of your children tell you?


My children are my life and I wouldn't want to do anything to disrupt their lives. I guess I should just keep my mouth closed and let the past stay in the past.

I just wish there was some type of memory extractor like in the movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, so that I can remove this timeline from my thoughts


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## Hicks

Look, we can all be insecure over a wife's past.

What good does knowing for sure do you?
This is like after 20 years you start digging into how many sex partners your wife had before marriage... No real good comes from it. To overcome your insecurity you have to tell yourself things that are beneficial to your marriage and raise your own confidence.

I'll walk out on a limb and ask about your current sex life... I bet it's harmed by your lack of confidence and insecurity... .what say you?


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## 20PlusYears

Hicks said:


> Look, we can all be insecure over a wife's past.
> 
> What good does knowing for sure do you?
> This is like after 20 years you start digging into how many sex partners your wife had before marriage... No real good comes from it. To overcome your insecurity you have to tell yourself things that are beneficial to your marriage and raise your own confidence.
> 
> I'll walk out on a limb and ask about your current sex life... I bet it's harmed by your lack of confidence and insecurity... .what say you?


Honestly, our sex life, I would say is not affected by this issue at least like it was years ago. I think that in the past I was a little passive agressive, and use denial of sex to punish her when I triggered.


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## 20PlusYears

michzz said:


> I don't see why you can't address this directly with your wife. Even framed in a. "These last 20 years have been great, however, I still am bothered that you never came clean about what happened in Hawaii? We both know that you were intimate with that guy. And I can't put it aside without your acknowledging the truth."
> 
> It doesn't mean you have to kick her out, or you leave, or anything. It just means the rug sweeping is over.


I have directly confronted her on this issue many times over many years. Unfortunately, all I have is her word to go on. She vehemently denies that sex took place. However, when I questioned her on was it making out, fondling petting, etc. Then she clams up and doesn't want to discuss.

But I guess being a young naive young man at the time. I didn't know the right questions to ask. I feel by the way she clams up when I ask about the extent of the making out, that it was definitely more than not kissing...maybe not sex, but definitely more than kissing.


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## Hicks

The best way to find out for sure is to schedule a lie detector test... You will probably get a confession in the parking lot, or find out with whatever percentage accuracy the test has...

But then you would be inviting something very different into your long term marriage, and once you do this the consequences are unpredictable...

What I would be asking myself is what good comes from finding out defintitvely that she had sex with him 20 years ago? Versus even assuming that is the case? What benefit to your life or your marrige happens if you find this out?

I think individual counseling is best for you right now.


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## SadSamIAm

Lets say your wife admitted she had an affair many years ago when this happened. 

Would you be happier now?

If you left her back then, What would the chances be that you would have ended up with someone else in a happy marriage for 20+ years? With as great of family?

Whether she slept with the guy or not, I think where you are now is the best possible place you could be. Don't screw it up by being insecure about what may or may not have happened.


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## Burned

20PlusYears said:


> Burned, I guess that is a valid question...I truly don't know the answer to that question.
> 
> Hicks, you're excactly right. It's more of a pride thing to me. I sometimes feel like I was weak for taking her back. That there is some guy thinking hey, i was able to take this dude wife. I know that it's my issue not hers.


I only say this as I thought I was prepared for the answer, I was not.


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## SadSamIAm

michzz said:


> I don't see why you can't address this directly with your wife. Even framed in a. "These last 20 years have been great, however, I still am bothered that you never came clean about what happened in Hawaii? We both know that you were intimate with that guy. And I can't put it aside without your acknowledging the truth."
> 
> It doesn't mean you have to kick her out, or you leave, or anything. It just means the rug sweeping is over.


What if she didn't cheat? 

This is what my wife has said to me. Just admit it! But it didn't happen!


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## life101

Sigh. Twenty years, and you are still suffering. 
As much as I would like to say that let it go and be happy with what you have, I cannot. I am going against everyone's advice here, but I really cannot suggest you not to get the truth. You have the right to know the truth. The fact that your wife trickle truthed you and wouldn't answer any question regarding the affair is a GIANT red flag.

I would suggest lie detector, and then MC and IC for both of you. The issues got buried deep within both of you. If anything more than a kiss went on, then I would think your wife suffered too all these years. It is unfair to both of you.

Lie detector test and counseling. ASAP.


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## ironman

This is a tough one.

On the one hand, you have a great marriage and you don't want to throw that way .. if that's truly the case, then stop reading.

If it were me, and she was triggering me by making jokes about her "affair friend" ... then I sure as hell would want to know. I don't care how long ago the affair was .. if I was deceived at any time then I would throw my wife out today if I just found out. But that's me.

Some people are much more forgiving than I ... so I guess it depends on you ... how forgiving are you???


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## Acabado

She had sex. And it matters.
Let it go anyway. She gave you the more patalable version back then so you decided to stay, she had to keep the version since then.

Always were I supported of the "assume the worse scenario and go from it."


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## norajane

So you two have been fine for 20 years, good marriage, happy family, and reading infidelity threads on TAM has now made you second guess and question something that happened 20 years ago which you had already discussed then?

Time to get off TAM. 

This place can feed insecurities and create problems and even ruin good relationships because there are a lot of people who are quite raw with recent infidelities and are suffering so their advice is going to send you down a rabbit hole with _no upside_ for you or your marriage.


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## 20PlusYears

I'm confident that something intimate happen...Hell she admitted that they kissed more than a couple of times. I do feel that I'm being unfair to her, as she has been a wonderful wife and mother to my kids for all of these years. Why am I bringing up this issue and holding it over her head after all of these years.

Sometimes I think that it would be better to set her free. She doesn't deserve this. Heck even murderers are set free after shorter prison terms


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## aug

It matters if she's lying. It matters a lot.

A potential way to find out is to schedule a polygraph test. It's not that expensive and goes a long way to give you peace of mind - that's something you did not have for 20 years. I strongly doubt the uncertainty will go away in the coming 20+ years.

Dont rug sweep it. It'll never stay hidden.


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## SadSamIAm

Your description of how she reacts when you have asked about the 'more than kissing thing' changes my opinion. And as you said, a bunch more than 'kissing' occurred. At this point, not sure if it matters if they had intercourse or not. She did have an EA that turned into a PA. A PA to me, doesn't need to include intercourse.

Sounds like she has admitted to cheating. You know she cheated. You just aren't certain to the extent of the cheating.

If you can't put this behind you, then I would suggest telling your wife that you love her, you love the life you have with her, but that you can't forget about what happened and that you desperately want to put it behind you. Book yourself into some counseling and ask your wife to attend to assist you in getting past this issue. If she won't go, go by yourself.

The way you described your marriage tells me you are a lucky man.

I truly wish the best for you. Hope you can find some way to get past this and enjoy the rest of your life.


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## Truthseeker1

20PlusYears said:


> I'm confident that something intimate happen...Hell she admitted that they kissed more than a couple of times. I do feel that I'm being unfair to her, as she has been a wonderful wife and mother to my kids for all of these years. *Why am I bringing up this issue and holding it over her head after all of these years.*
> 
> Sometimes I think that it would be better to set her free. She doesn't deserve this. Heck even murderers are set free after shorter prison terms


Maybe you need IC to figure that out....does your gut tell you they had sex?


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## norajane

20PlusYears said:


> I'm confident that something intimate happen...Hell she admitted that they kissed more than a couple of times. I do feel that I'm being unfair to her, as she has been a wonderful wife and mother to my kids for all of these years. *Why am I bringing up this issue and holding it over her head after all of these years.*
> 
> Sometimes I think that it would be better to set her free. She doesn't deserve this. Heck even murderers are set free after shorter prison terms


Are you seeking to destabilize a good marriage?


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## 20PlusYears

norajane said:


> So you two have been fine for 20 years, good marriage, happy family, and reading infidelity threads on TAM has now made you second guess and question something that happened 20 years ago which you had already discussed then?
> 
> Time to get off TAM.
> 
> This place can feed insecurities and create problems and even ruin good relationships because there are a lot of people who are quite raw with recent infidelities and are suffering so their advice is going to send you down a rabbit hole with _no upside_ for you or your marriage.


This is basically what my wife has told me. I have to admit that it took around 5 plus years for me to get to the point that I stopped questioning her. It was just reading post after post about kissing turning into sex that really got me back to this place. I just feel like maybe I would have made a different decision if I had all of the facts. But it sounds like many are saying and I know in my heart...at this point does it really matter:scratchhead:


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## aug

norajane said:


> So *you two have been fine for 20 years*, good marriage, happy family, and reading infidelity threads on TAM has now made you second guess and question something that happened 20 years ago which you had already discussed then?
> 
> Time to get off TAM.
> 
> This place can feed insecurities and create problems and even ruin good relationships because there are a lot of people who are quite raw with recent infidelities and are suffering so their advice is going to send you down a rabbit hole with _no upside_ for you or your marriage.



It doesn't look like he was fine. He tried burying it. It wont stayed buried. That's the more likely reason he was drawn to TAM.

He should deal with it now. Get it open. Expose to sunlight and then deal with it - if there's anything there.


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## Truthseeker1

20PlusYears said:


> This is basically what my wife has told me. I have to admit that it took around 5 plus years for me to get to the point that I stopped questioning her. It was just reading post after post about kissing turning into sex that really got me back to this place. I just feel like maybe I would have made a different decision if I had all of the facts. But it sounds like many are saying and I know in my heart...at this point does it really matter:scratchhead:


Do you think she is lying to you about the sex?


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## badmemory

If I'm understanding your post, you found this out not long after it happened; 20 years ago?

If so, that's a lot different situation than if you had just now found out about it. That would mean that you never had the choice to consider R back then and that she was living a lie all that time. 

But you knew, you stayed, and apparently she's been remorseful. You've had a good marriage since then. It's almost not fair to her to wait this long and drag this out again.

I said almost. I wouldn't do it, but I guess there's not a statute of limitations on this type of thing.


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## Hicks

Only you can decide whether it's more important to know versus to hold on to an illusion of chaste.

The thing is, if you do find out, what will you do then?
If you don't know the answer to that with 100% certainty, you should wait until you know this before finding out.


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## norajane

aug said:


> It doesn't look like he was fine. He tried burying it. It wont stayed buried. That's the more likely reason he was looking at TAM.
> 
> He should deal with it now. Get it open. Expose to sunlight and then deal with it - if there's anything there.


Except she's not going to tell him anything different than she's been telling him. She can't prove she didn't do anything more than what she's said, and he can't prove she did. So I don't see what pursuing this further is going to do except keep him mired in this line of thinking. 

20 years of a good marriage is not something to just toss away, especially when children are involved, especially when the grass is hardly greener after divorce. At this point, he either trusts her or he doesn't and then has to divorce because he can't be married to someone he doesn't trust and I can't imagine she'd want to be married to someone who keeps accusing her and doesn't trust her after all this time.


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## Truthseeker1

20PlusYears said:


> This is basically what my wife has told me. I have to admit that it took around 5 plus years for me to get to the point that I stopped questioning her. It was just reading post after post about kissing turning into sex that really got me back to this place. I just feel like maybe I would have made a different decision if I had all of the facts. But it sounds like many are saying and I know in my heart...at this point does it really matter:scratchhead:


Why not phrase it this way - "You are a great wife and I love my life with you and I do not want any lies or secrets between us. I feel like there is a big one and that is what I'm struggling with " If she still insists there was no sex then you might want to consider IC...


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## movin on

My wife had a short fling twenty years ago and admitted some things but I know there is a lot more than she told me. We were not married yet but it still bothers me to this day. And she knows it. But if she stuck to the same story for twenty years she probably won't change her story now. I have no idea how you can get the truth out of her. But I do understand what your going through and it sucks. My best advice would be to try MC. Do you know the name of the guy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 20PlusYears

IC does sound like a good prescription for what I'm going through. I really don't think that we rug swept. Believe me I exposed to everyone when it happened and made her quit the job and become completely transparent, which she did without issue.

It's just that unknown that has bothered me for all of these years. I know that I'll never have the complete picture...and maybe that's something that I have to accept and move on. It's just an ego thing. I like many here believed that their wife was different and wouldn't ever anticipate that they would be placed in this postion.

I guess I should count myself as lucky that it happend early in the marriage and became a teachable moment. I think some IC would be benefical to me at the least.

You guys have been very helpful thank you for your responses!


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## Truthseeker1

norajane said:


> Except she's not going to tell him anything different than she's been telling him. She can't prove she didn't do anything more than what she's said, and he can't prove she did. So I don't see what pursuing this further is going to do except keep him mired in this line of thinking.
> 
> 20 years of a good marriage is not something to just toss away, especially when children are involved, especially when the grass is hardly greener after divorce. At this point, he either trusts her or he doesn't and then has to divorce because he can't be married to someone he doesn't trust and I can't imagine she'd want to be married to someone who keeps accusing her and doesn't trust her after all this time.


You make great points but it has to be excruciating for him not to believe her...and if she is still lying to him..well that says something about her...


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## life101

norajane said:


> Except she's not going to tell him anything different than she's been telling him. She can't prove she didn't do anything more than what she's said, and he can't prove she did. So I don't see what pursuing this further is going to do except keep him mired in this line of thinking.
> 
> 20 years of a good marriage is not something to just toss away, especially when children are involved, especially when the grass is hardly greener after divorce. At this point, he either trusts her or he doesn't and then has to divorce because* he can't be married to someone he doesn't trust and I can't imagine she'd want to be married to someone who keeps accusing her and doesn't trust her after all this time*.


This is exactly why a polygraph is needed along with counseling. They both have suffered, and it is unfair to both of them. The issues got rugswept, but never went away.

Even if something more than a few 'innocent' kisses come out of polygraph, this marriage can be saved. But honestly, living in constant suspicion and fear is not healthy for either of them.


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## Anuvia

20PlusYears said:


> Sorry long post...I'm know in my heart that I'm most likely being irrational and stupid. My wife and I have been married over 23 yrs, together for over 25 yrs. Like most marriages we've had our ups and downs. However, I think our ups greatly surpasses our downs. We have 4 children together, ages 8,11,15, and 19. We both are successful professionals and have a great life together. You're probably wondering why then am I posting here?…which is a great question.
> 
> I've been lurking on this site now for quite sometime, reading post of others in hopes of affair proofing my marriage. There have been no suspicions or red flags, just thought that I would make sure that I do what I can to make the best of our marriage. Now, getting to the crux of my post today…20 years ago when my wife was doing a lot of traveling for her job, she was assigned to a project that kept her in Hawaii for 3 months. During that time we were having some arguments, mostly about the amount of travel her job required.
> 
> Anyway, I went to visit and stay with her for a week after she'd been there a couple of months. She seemed a little distant, but I just attributed that to the issues that we were dealing with. At that time I didn't see or sense anything out of the norm. Fast forward a couple of months after she returned from her trip, we had recently moved to another state where she would be permanently working out, which meant no more travel. Things were really going good for us and we were getting along famously.
> 
> One evening she asked me to attend a function with her that I didn’t want to go to, I'm not sure if it was guilt or what, but she kind of jokingly said that her friend would have taken her. I enquired as to who this friend was. This is when she told me about her affair while in Hawaii. She said that they had not had sex but that they had kissed and it was over. She was not in-love with this guy and wanted to be with me. I repeatedly questioned her about the extent of the affair, but she always and still says that there was no sex.
> 
> We were really young in our early 20's and had only been married for 2 years. It took some time but I decided to stay with her and make a life with her. It took years to get to the point that I could fully trust her again. She was remorseful and did all that I ask and still does to be open and transparent with me. I truly love this woman, even if it's not the way that it was prior to this incident.
> 
> Now to the crux of my issue and why I'm posting my story. As I've mentioned, I've been on this site reading a lot of post. It appears that there is a common theme where WS tells the BS that the affair only consisted of a kiss, only to be informed by the veterans on this forum that it was probably much more and later discovered through FB, Text, email, that sex was indeed part of the affair. Unfortunately, during my time, we didn't have all of these tools to catch a lying spouse. All I had was her word to rely on.
> 
> Now to my question, at this point, after all of these years, should I even care? She's been a model wife for the most part for over 20 years. If it went beyond kissing to making out with petting and fondling minus the act of sexual intercourse, does it matter now that I have already decided to reconcile and have created a family with her.
> 
> If I were to discover that it went well beyond kissing, should I say that this would have been a deal breaker for me then and I should no longer feel obliged to continue with our marriage? Or am I being a douche bag and should just let it go and move on and enjoy the life we've built?
> 
> You guys give really insightful advice and I would be greatly appreciative of some good counsel from you learned posters.


She was probably having sex repeatedly over the course of those three months. She was probably lying to you and screwing after she got back too. Let it go though since it's been over 20 years.


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## aug

norajane said:


> Except she's not going to tell him anything different than she's been telling him. She can't prove she didn't do anything more than what she's said, and he can't prove she did. So I don't see what pursuing this further is going to do except keep him mired in this line of thinking.
> 
> 20 years of a good marriage is not something to just toss away, especially when children are involved, especially when the grass is hardly greener after divorce. At this point, he either trusts her or he doesn't and then has to divorce because he can't be married to someone he doesn't trust and I can't imagine she'd want to be married to someone who keeps accusing her and doesn't trust her after all this time.



It's not really a good marriage if she was lying. He and her would had been living in different realities.

There are ways to find out if she was and is lying. Polygraph, for one. There are also professional lie catchers/questioners who could do the job.

He'll stayed "mired" if he does nothing and that will subconsciously manifest itself at different times. It's not fair to him. His wife caused this and should be cooperative in helping him resolve this deeply troubled issue.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

20PlusYears said:


> I have directly confronted her on this issue many times over many years. Unfortunately, all I have is her word to go on. She vehemently denies that sex took place. However, when I questioned her on was it making out, fondling petting, etc. Then she clams up and doesn't want to discuss.
> 
> But I guess being a young naive young man at the time. I didn't know the right questions to ask. I feel by the way she clams up when I ask about the extent of the making out, that it was definitely more than not kissing...maybe not sex, but definitely more than kissing.


her clamming up is your answer. I bet she gave him oral..
tell her you want a polygraph so you can let the doubts go away. After all she is the one that cheated and most on here will tell you the R takes place after the whole truth is told. Her clamming up is not helping you get over it as your imagination is all you have to go on. She owes you the polygraph. If she won't take it you have your answer..


----------



## nogutsnoglory

Anuvia said:


> She was probably having sex repeatedly over the course of those three months. She was probably lying to you and screwing after she got back too. Let it go though since it's been over 20 years.


let it go.. what a joke


----------



## Truthseeker1

20PlusYears said:


> Sorry long post...I'm know in my heart that I'm most likely being irrational and stupid. My wife and I have been married over 23 yrs, together for over 25 yrs. Like most marriages we've had our ups and downs. However, I think our ups greatly surpasses our downs. We have 4 children together, ages 8,11,15, and 19. We both are successful professionals and have a great life together. You're probably wondering why then am I posting here?…which is a great question.
> 
> I've been lurking on this site now for quite sometime, reading post of others in hopes of affair proofing my marriage. There have been no suspicions or red flags, just thought that I would make sure that I do what I can to make the best of our marriage. Now, getting to the crux of my post today…20 years ago when my wife was doing a lot of traveling for her job, she was assigned to a project that kept her in Hawaii for 3 months. During that time we were having some arguments, mostly about the amount of travel her job required.
> 
> Anyway, I went to visit and stay with her for a week after she'd been there a couple of months. She seemed a little distant, but I just attributed that to the issues that we were dealing with. At that time I didn't see or sense anything out of the norm. Fast forward a couple of months after she returned from her trip, we had recently moved to another state where she would be permanently working out, which meant no more travel. Things were really going good for us and we were getting along famously.
> 
> *One evening she asked me to attend a function with her that I didn’t want to go to, I'm not sure if it was guilt or what, but she kind of jokingly said that her friend would have taken her. I enquired as to who this friend was. This is when she told me about her affair while in Hawaii. She said that they had not had sex but that they had kissed and it was over.* She was not in-love with this guy and wanted to be with me. I repeatedly questioned her about the extent of the affair, but she always and still says that there was no sex.
> 
> We were really young in our early 20's and had only been married for 2 years. It took some time but I decided to stay with her and make a life with her. It took years to get to the point that I could fully trust her again. She was remorseful and did all that I ask and still does to be open and transparent with me. I truly love this woman, even if it's not the way that it was prior to this incident.
> 
> Now to the crux of my issue and why I'm posting my story. As I've mentioned, I've been on this site reading a lot of post. It appears that there is a common theme where WS tells the BS that the affair only consisted of a kiss, only to be informed by the veterans on this forum that it was probably much more and later discovered through FB, Text, email, that sex was indeed part of the affair. Unfortunately, during my time, we didn't have all of these tools to catch a lying spouse. All I had was her word to rely on.
> 
> Now to my question, at this point, after all of these years, should I even care? She's been a model wife for the most part for over 20 years. If it went beyond kissing to making out with petting and fondling minus the act of sexual intercourse, does it matter now that I have already decided to reconcile and have created a family with her.
> 
> If I were to discover that it went well beyond kissing, should I say that this would have been a deal breaker for me then and I should no longer feel obliged to continue with our marriage? Or am I being a douche bag and should just let it go and move on and enjoy the life we've built?
> 
> You guys give really insightful advice and I would be greatly appreciative of some good counsel from you learned posters.


Something else just occurred to me. If she really wanted to lie to you why not just keep the whole thing a secret - why even admit to the kissing? You had no way of finding out - if she is going to be a liar why not just keep it all from you.the fact that she confessed is something else to consider...


----------



## 20PlusYears

Truthseeker1, what you said about her confession is the one saving grace that make me think that she is telling me the truth abou the sex. As I said in my original post, we were doing great at the time that she confessed. I never had any idea that something had happened. She could have taken this knowledge to her grave and I would have never been the wiser.


----------



## Truthseeker1

20PlusYears said:


> Truthseeker1, what you said about her confession is the one saving grace that make me think that she is telling me the truth abou the sex. As I said in my original post, we were doing great at the time that she confessed. I never had any idea that something had happened. She could have taken this knowledge to her grave and I would have never been the wiser.


Do you trust her now? Have you trusted her over the last 2 decades?


----------



## ThePheonix

life101 said:


> The fact that your wife trickle truthed you and wouldn't answer any question regarding the affair is a GIANT red flag.





20PlusYears said:


> Unfortunately, all I have is her word to go on. She vehemently denies that sex took place.


You don't know its "trickle truth". If fact it sounds like its not. She's stuck by her story all these years and remember, she didn't have to tell you a damn thing and, based on her performance as a wife, you'd never known if she screwed the guy nine ways to Sunday. Two questions:

1. What would you do if she said, "yes, I slept with the guy"?

2. Have you noticed the goods were damaged all these years?

Let me ask a third. Would you rather her tell you that she had sex with the guy twenty something years ago or tell you her doctor said she had three months to live? Put it in perspective my man. There are a lot worse things than what is probably her relatively minor indiscretion.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

20PlusYears said:


> Truthseeker1, what you said about her confession is the one saving grace that make me think that she is telling me the truth abou the sex. As I said in my original post, we were doing great at the time that she confessed. I never had any idea that something had happened. She could have taken this knowledge to her grave and I would have never been the wiser.


guilt people.. telling you she had an affair was her way of making herself feel better. If she had sex and thought that would be the deal breaker for your marriage, it would be the little piece of info she takes to the grave. You said yourself she clams up when you pushed the not just kissing point. Sorry but not buying it.


----------



## TRy

20PlusYears said:


> She vehemently denies that sex took place. However, when I questioned her on was it making out, fondling petting, etc. Then she clams up and doesn't want to discuss.


 Many cheaters play word games with the word sex. They apply the Bill Clinton definition that only full on intercourse is sex; Bill Clinton stated that he "did not have sex with that women", even though he did everything else with her including oral sex. Your wife is playing this word game. If it stopped at kissing, she would vehemently deny "making out, fondling petting, etc." just has hard as she denies that sex took place. She did not deny these other sexual acts because she in fact did them. Her relationship with the other man was sexually extensive enough that she had to tell him about issues in your marraige to rationalize that it was OK for them to cheat with each other.

I would want to know the truth. I do not blame you for letting it still bug you. You cannot forgive and let it go until she respects you enough to tell you the truth so that you can know what to forgive and let go. Right now it is a secret that she is keeping with the other man. You are the outsider to their secret and that is what bugs you. This secret will always give the other man the leg up on you with your wife, since it makes her and him the insiders and you the outsider. It will never be over until she lets you in on the secret of what happened. 

Tell your wife that intercourse is not the only form of sex. Tell her that people laughed at Bill Clinton for trying to say otherwise. Let her know that if intercourse were the only form of sex, then oral sex would not be called oral "sex" and gay couples would never have sex. Tell your wife that the normal definition of sex includes any fondling or touching meant to sexually arouse someone. Then state that using the normal definition of sex, which includes more than just intercourse, "can you still state that you did not have sex with that other man"? Tell her that she owes you the truth on this, that for you to ever get this off of your mind, that you need to know. State that after 20 good years, the truth will not end your marriage but allow it to finally heal.


----------



## aug

20PlusYears said:


> Truthseeker1, what you said about her confession is the one saving grace that make me think that she is telling me the truth abou the sex. As I said in my original post, we were doing great at the time that she confessed. I never had any idea that something had happened. She could have taken this knowledge to her grave and I would have never been the wiser.


The mention was most likely a slip because you and her were in a good place at the time and she let her guard down.

Was it a slip? 

Or, did she sat you down and said I need to confess?


----------



## 20PlusYears

TRy said:


> Many cheaters play word games with the word sex. They apply the Bill Clinton definition that only full on intercourse is sex; Bill Clinton stated that he "did not have sex with that women", even though he did everything else with her including oral sex. Your wife is playing this word game. If it stopped at kissing, she would vehemently deny "making out, fondling petting, etc." just has hard as she denies that sex took place. She did not deny these other sexual acts because she in fact did them. Her relationship with the other man was sexually extensive enough that she had to tell him about issues in your marraige to rationalize that it was OK for them to cheat with each other.
> 
> I would want to know the truth. I do not blame you for letting it still bug you. You cannot forgive and let it go until she respects you enough to tell you the truth so that you can know what to forgive and let go. Right now it is a secret that she is keeping with the other man. You are the outsider to their secret and that is what bugs you. This secret will always give the other man the leg up on you with your wife, since it makes her and him the insiders and you the outsider. It will never be over until she lets you in on the secret of what happened.
> 
> Tell your wife that intercourse is not the only form of sex. Tell her that people laughed at Bill Clinton for trying to say otherwise. Let her know that if intercourse were the only form of sex, then oral sex would not be called oral "sex" and gay couples would never have sex. Tell your wife that the normal definition of sex includes any fondling or touching meant to sexually arouse someone. Then state that using the normal definition of sex, which includes more than just intercourse, "can you still state that you did not have sex with that other man"? Tell her that she owes you the truth on this, that for you to ever get this off of your mind, that you need to know. State that after 20 good years, the truth will not end your marriage but allow it to finally heal.


Wow!!! I had not looked at it that way. I hope that this is not the case, but I think it's important enough for me to approach her with this line of questioning. 

Someone asked the question do I really want to know the answer and what would I do if I was to find out... Maybe I need to answer that question before I approach her. I don't want to ruin what has been a very good marriage for something that happend 20 years ago.


----------



## Truthseeker1

20PlusYears said:


> Wow!!! I had not looked at it that way. I hope that this is not the case, but I think it's important enough for me to approach her with this line of questioning.
> 
> Someone asked the question do I really want to know the answer and what would I do if I was to find out... Maybe I need to answer that question before I approach her. I don't want to ruin what has been a very good marriage for something that happend 20 years ago.


Good luck..I have a question - if she tells you she had oral sex with him or even intercourse, what would you do?


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## barbados

Dude, your wife is lying through her teeth about this. She was in her early 20's, just recently married, no kids, in paradise (Hawaii) with some dude. 

SHE WAS BANGING HIS BRAINS OUT !!! 

and you rug swept it and had 4 kids with her. 

DEMAND a polygraph test !

SHE IS LYING TO YOU ABOUT THIS !!!!!!!!!!!


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## norajane

20PlusYears said:


> Wow!!! I had not looked at it that way.


Like I said, TAM is feeding into your insecurities and making you feel worse. Enjoy.


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## Truthseeker1

norajane said:


> Like I said, TAM is feeding into your insecurities and making you feel worse. Enjoy.


Nora, as a woman do you think she is lying?


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## happyman64

Twenty Plus

You remind me of myself twenty years ago when my young bride went on a business trip to LA for a month. 

She told me everything, including the young exec who spent 4 weeks trying to get into her parents including candlelit dinners with romantic views.

When my wife returned home and told me all the details I did not get upset. I stayed calm.

My wife was happy when I said I trusted her and there was not a darn thing I could do to control her. Inside I wanted to get on a plane, go to LA and beat this ahole into the ground. But I knew two things about my wife that this dude did not.

1. My wife is the most honest individual I have ever met. Too honest IMO.

2. It took me 6 years to get into her pants. That dude had no chance.

Here is my advice.

Get off TAM.
Do not ruin a great marriage.
Every marriage has its rough starts. If your wife has been honest with you and has been a great wife/mother than be grateful.

And whenever she has a work event do not hesitate to go with her looking your best!

It has worked for me over all these years and it will work for you.

Go have a great life and stop worrying about what happened twenty years ago.

*There is not a darn thing you can do now to change what happened then.*

HM64


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## punkinhead

I don't post here often, but I guess I really don't understand allowing this to still be an issue 20 years later. I know this is an unpopular sentiment but there comes a point where you can either leave the past in the past, or you can drag it up to torture yourself with. I'm not excusing what she did. Cheating is wrong. But it sounds like she's spent the last 20 years truly making up for her behavior. Even if there is more to the story, that chapter of your lives seems to have truly ended 20 years ago.

If your marriage has been good and you are happy, I suggest closing this chapter and leaving it closed so that it doesn't impact your future.


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## Jasel

Sounds like rugsweeping and not pushing hard enough for the full truth has kept him from from being able to move on. No idea why he should expect continuing to rugsweep would actually solve anything:scratchhead:


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## norajane

Truthseeker1 said:


> Nora, as a woman do you think she is lying?


I don't think she's lying. I think they kissed, and there was probably some touching.

If they had sex and she wanted to lie to him about that, she wouldn't have ever mentioned that she had kissed a guy in the first place. She would have known that as soon as she mentioned "guy" that she would be questioned on whether they had sex (and rightly so). 

So, if she were a liar, she just would have kept the whole thing a secret rather than opening the door to questions. She is the one who brought up the guy - she wasn't caught and he never would have known anything happened.


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## Truthseeker1

norajane said:


> I don't think she's lying. I think they kissed, and there was probably some touching.
> 
> If they had sex and she wanted to lie to him about that, she wouldn't have ever mentioned that she had kissed a guy in the first place. She would have known that as soon as she mentioned "guy" that she would be questioned on whether they had sex (and rightly so).
> 
> So, if she were a liar, she just would have kept the whole thing a secret rather than opening the door to questions. She is the one who brought up the guy - she wasn't caught and he never would have known anything happened.


Great points!


----------



## TRy

norajane said:


> Like I said, TAM is feeding into your insecurities and making you feel worse. Enjoy.


Study after study shows that people get over the sex part of the affair way before they get over the secrecy part of the affair. After all these years, he will get over the sex part rather quickly, just like most people get over the sex that their spouse had with lovers that they had before they got married. It is not really about the sex as much as it is about the secrecy. As long as she keeps the secrets of her affair between just her and her lover, the betrayal of the affair will be ongoing. I do not think that the truth should nor will end their marraige. They have had 20 good years. He just needs, and has a right to the truth, and for all aspects of the affair (including the secrecy) to be over and done with. In this case the truth will really set them free.


----------



## norajane

TRy said:


> Study after study shows that people get over the sex part of the affair way before they get over the secrecy part of the affair. After all these years, he will get over the sex part rather quickly, just like most people get over the sex that their spouse had with lovers that they had before they got married. It is not really about the sex as much as it is about the secrecy. As long as she keeps the secrets of her affair between just her and her lover, the betrayal of the affair will be ongoing. I do not think that the truth should nor will end their marraige. They have had 20 good years. He just needs, and has a right to the truth, and for all aspects of the affair to be over and done with. In this case the truth will really set them free.


He might already HAVE the truth. She didn't keep the guy a secret - she told him about it. He isn't going to get more "truth" out of her if she's already told him the truth.


----------



## norajane

Jasel said:


> Sounds like rugsweeping and not pushing hard enough for the full truth has kept him from from being able to move on. No idea why he should expect continuing to rugsweep would actually solve anything:scratchhead:


But he didn't rug sweep. He questioned, he made her quit her job, etc. They had dealt with it.

Now, for some unknown reason, he's working himself up on TAM all over again.


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## chillymorn

she banged him!

at least thats how I read it. 

she threw it in your face because she wanted to hurt you by making that statment ....that my friend would take me.

then she had to say something because she almost let the cat out of the bag. 


20yrs ago.....should you do something about it. thats up to you. 

you say she was a modle wife all these years. sounds like shes a maniplitive person. My friend would take me. she tried to guilt you into doing something. dose she do that often.


----------



## Truthseeker1

chillymorn said:


> she banged him!
> 
> at least thats how I read it.
> 
> *she threw it in your face because she wanted to hurt you by making that statment ....that my friend would take me.*
> 
> then she had to say something because she almost let the cat out of the bag.
> 
> 
> 20yrs ago.....should you do something about it. thats up to you.
> 
> you say she was a modle wife all these years. sounds like shes a maniplitive person. My friend would take me. she tried to guilt you into doing something. dose she do that often.


Where do you get that from? She was remorseful and suffered full exposure form the affair?


----------



## Truthseeker1

norajane said:


> But he didn't rug sweep. He questioned, he made her quit her job, etc. They had dealt with it.
> 
> Now, for some unknown reason, he's working himself up on TAM all over again.


:iagree:


----------



## CH

If it's been 20 years, you'll never let it go no matter what she tells you or no matter how much help you get IMO. It's festered too long inside of you.


----------



## Jasel

norajane said:


> I don't think she's lying. I think they kissed, and there was probably some touching.
> 
> If they had sex and she wanted to lie to him about that, she wouldn't have ever mentioned that she had kissed a guy in the first place. She would have known that as soon as she mentioned "guy" that she would be questioned on whether they had sex (and rightly so).
> 
> So, if she were a liar, she just would have kept the whole thing a secret rather than opening the door to questions. She is the one who brought up the guy - she wasn't caught and he never would have known anything happened.


I have to disagree. It's called trickle truth, which happens all the time. "It was just a kiss" many times is a bone thrown to the BS to cover up the fact that something much more, usually sex, occurred. Especially if the WS has a guilty conscious but can't bring themselves to admit the full truth.

It's the same warped thinking where a WS will keep bringing up a POSOM/W in conversation thinking that by doing so they're somehow pulling the wool over the BS eyes by showing they have nothing to hide. 

Now I suppose it could have just been a kiss like she said, but I seriously doubt it. Especially going by her reaction when he presses her if anything more than that happened.


----------



## life101

'NOW, what I want is, Facts. Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the minds of reasoning animals upon Facts: nothing else will ever be of any service to them.

HARD TIMES, Charles ****ens


----------



## Burned

It's amazing to see all the different perspectives, I can see great points in all the advice. A 20 year marriage is very special and nothing to just throw away without some serious soul searching.


----------



## walkonmars

Whatever happened happened. It's in the past. Stop dwelling on wha might have occurred. 

Why?

Two reasons:1) She has a track record now. 240 months of faithful, loving companionship and devotion. Years of being a good mom and wife. 
2) What will you do if you discover the "worst" happened 20 years ago? Divorce her? Split the family? Devastate your children? 

If it was recent or if you JUST FOUND OUT it would be a different story. But it isn't. 

Think of it this way: If she's as moral and upright as you say she is now, and if something did happen, then she learned from it and is probably doing her own penance in her own way. 

Do yourself a favor. See a counselor if you must but LET IT GO.


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## lifeistooshort

I'm a woman, and the fact that she clams up when asked for more details tells me there was more to this than she admits. You have to assume there was, which it seems like you do. I'm inclined to tell you to let it go, but the lies and dodging would bother me too. Have you flat out told her that the lies are what bothers you and you will give her one chance to come completely clean with no consequences? Right now she has no incentive, so if you can't let it go you have to give her incentive. I also like the idea of a poly, her reaction will tell you a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

This is a tough situation OP, sorry you are having to deal with this.

I think that the issue isn't really about possible sexual acts over 20 years ago.

This issue is do you have a wife NOW who is comfortable lying to you to manipulate the marriage.

I have always felt that the lying and deception of infidelity is far worse than the sex.

And in your case, whatever did happen physically is long over and done with, but her refusal to be completely honest and transparent about what occurred is STILL ONGOING.

I would be far more upset at having a wife who felt she could not be honest with me than one who might have strayed many years ago, but at least could share that with me and ask for forgiveness for the wrong she had done me.

My best friend's W had an EA several years ago. To this day he wonders if he knows the extent of it all. Unfortunately, it never really goes away for him...it always comes up in his thoughts from time to time.

It seems it has been similar for you. It is that nagging doubt about honesty in the relationship.

And that is not some distant and meaningless event in past. It is one that is there every day at the current time.


----------



## Dyokemm

I think one of the other posters had a valid point about her confession too.

It may have been unintentional.

She might have been upset about the event you were not attending and this made her think about OM. In frustration, she may have mentioned him to hurt you, and then realized she now had to explain who this guy was.

So she admitted some of the truth, but minimized the extent of it so you would not dump her.

There is probably much more to this.

After 20 good years and 4 wonderful children, she now sees herself as trapped in the minimized truth.

But that continuing doubt you have about her honesty is still lurking there under the surface.


----------



## TRy

norajane said:


> He might already HAVE the truth. She didn't keep the guy a secret - she told him about it. He isn't going to get more "truth" out of her if she's already told him the truth.


 I might think it possible the that OP knew the whole truth, but for the fact that he said that he does not know when he told us that "She vehemently denies that sex took place. However, when I questioned her on was it making out, fondling petting, etc. Then she clams up and doesn't want to discuss." This indicates that even giving her the benefit of the doubt about intercourse, there was more than kissing. She needs to discuss this in full with him for him to know the whole truth. The affair secrecy needs to end for it to be fully over.


----------



## OlderAndWiser

Dyokemm said:


> I think one of the other posters had a valid point about her confession too.
> 
> It may have been unintentional.
> 
> She might have been upset about the event you were not attending and this made her think about OM. In frustration, she may have mentioned him to hurt you, and then realized she now had to explain who this guy was.
> 
> So she admitted some of the truth, but minimized the extent of it so you would not dump her.
> 
> There is probably much more to this.
> 
> After 20 good years and 4 wonderful children, she now sees herself as trapped in the minimized truth.
> 
> But that continuing doubt you have about her honesty is still lurking there under the surface.


This is spot on!


----------



## nuclearnightmare

20PlusYears said:


> Wow!!! I had not looked at it that way. I hope that this is not the case, but I think it's important enough for me to approach her with this line of questioning.
> 
> Someone asked the question do I really want to know the answer and what would I do if I was to find out... Maybe I need to answer that question before I approach her. *I don't want to ruin what has been a very good marriage for something that happend 20 years ago*.


but if it has been such a good marriage, why would you insisting on knowing what really happened 20 years ago ruin it?? would _*she*_ throw away these 20 great years, just because you wanted her to take a polygraph regarding something she herself knows was only kissing? why wouldn't she indulge you that, and/or you insisting that you need more information on the details of what happened between her and the guy? so what have you got to lose by bringing it up again, pressing her on it? 

I'm being a bit rhetorical here, or course. despite all the good, "stable" aspects of your marriage, it sounds to me like your wife does not repsect you enough as a man, as a husband, or as a person she claims to love to take the full repsonsibility for her actions and do everything you need her to do to fully ease your mind. To the contrary, you fear engaging too much on the subject again might actually ruin the marriage.

I agree that this is an issue with your pride and with your ego. You have insufficient pride and an insufficiently strong ego to demand the full measure of respect as a husband (just as you did 20 years ago). I would say phrase it as diplomatically as you like (ala Truthseeker post for example), but bring it up again and don't let it go until you're 100% satisfied with her answer. THEN think about what you want to do about the answer........
Let her convince you why you should stay with her - THAT would demonstrate she truly has remorse about what she did. Not all the "claming up" she has done for 20 years....


----------



## OlderAndWiser

I am coming up on 43 years of marriage. I love my wife dearly. But....

She had a rather minor, and (I believe) one sided EA a couple of years after our marriage. We rugswept it and just moved on.

About 4 years ago, I was triggered by of all things going by an exit sign for the town we lived in when it occurred.

I suddenly realized I had never gotten over it. I had all the reactions as BS's who have just found out.

I sat my wife down and told her about my feelings. She did all I asked in terms of telling me what she was thinking, what happened / didn't happen. I was able to (mostly) process it and believe I now have really moved on.

My point is simple: The OP never effectively dealt with the affair. I don't care if he found out 20 minutes ago or 20 years ago. He needs to heal the same way as other BS's.

The amount of time that has passed doesn't mean he doesn't have to deal with it in his own way. If he has to polygraph, he should. If he can heal just by talking to his wife, he should. If he wants to discuss it at MC, he should.

Bottom line is rug sweeping is only a temporary fix, and eventually the events have to be dealt with. In my case, even after 35 years of good marriage.


----------



## Truthseeker1

OlderAndWiser said:


> I am coming up on 43 years of marriage. I love my wife dearly. But....
> 
> She had a rather minor, and (I believe) one sided EA a couple of years after our marriage. We rugswept it and just moved on.
> 
> About 4 years ago, I was triggered by of all things going by an exit sign for the town we lived in when it occurred.
> 
> I suddenly realized I had never gotten over it. I had all the reactions as BS's who have just found out.
> 
> I sat my wife down and told her about my feelings. She did all I asked in terms of telling me what she was thinking, what happened / didn't happen. I was able to (mostly) process it and believe I now have really moved on.
> 
> My point is simple: The OP never effectively dealt with the affair. I don't care if he found out 20 minutes ago or 20 years ago. He needs to heal the same way as other BS's.
> 
> The amount of time that has passed doesn't mean he doesn't have to deal with it in his own way. If he has to polygraph, he should. If he can heal just by talking to his wife, he should. If he wants to discuss it at MC, he should.
> 
> Bottom line is rug sweeping is only a temporary fix, and eventually the events have to be dealt with. In my case, even after 35 years of good marriage.


How did your wife react when you sat her down to talk about it?


----------



## happyman64

OlderAndWiser said:


> I am coming up on 43 years of marriage. I love my wife dearly. But....
> 
> She had a rather minor, and (I believe) one sided EA a couple of years after our marriage. We rugswept it and just moved on.
> 
> About 4 years ago, I was triggered by of all things going by an exit sign for the town we lived in when it occurred.
> 
> I suddenly realized I had never gotten over it. I had all the reactions as BS's who have just found out.
> 
> I sat my wife down and told her about my feelings. She did all I asked in terms of telling me what she was thinking, what happened / didn't happen. I was able to (mostly) process it and believe I now have really moved on.
> 
> My point is simple: The OP never effectively dealt with the affair. I don't care if he found out 20 minutes ago or 20 years ago. He needs to heal the same way as other BS's.
> 
> The amount of time that has passed doesn't mean he doesn't have to deal with it in his own way. If he has to polygraph, he should. If he can heal just by talking to his wife, he should. If he wants to discuss it at MC, he should.
> 
> Bottom line is rug sweeping is only a temporary fix, and eventually the events have to be dealt with. In my case, even after 35 years of good marriage.


Wise words O&W.

The key is you communicated with your wife and dealt with the issue at hand.

Did you ever consider throwing in the towel on your marriage?

That is the key with the OP.

Communicate with his spouse.....


----------



## Acabado

Different narratie and scenario here. The issue is he caught her back then and they allegedly dealt with it and reconciled.
He just got triggered and the veracity of her disclosure is back on his mind.


----------



## theroad

Hicks said:


> What good does knowing for sure do you?
> This is like after 20 years you start digging into how many sex partners your wife had before marriage... No real good comes from it. To overcome your insecurity you have to tell yourself things that are beneficial to your marriage and raise your own confidence.


He is not asking about what his WW did before they married.

He wants to know what his WW did after they were married.


----------



## theroad

michzz said:


> I don't see why you can't address this directly with your wife. Even framed in a. "These last 20 years have been great, however, I still am bothered that you never came clean about what happened in Hawaii? We both know that you were intimate with that guy. And I can't put it aside without your acknowledging the truth."
> 
> It doesn't mean you have to kick her out, or you leave, or anything. It just means the rug sweeping is over.


Good advice.


----------



## theroad

norajane said:


> So you two have been fine for 20 years, good marriage, happy family, and reading infidelity threads on TAM has now made you second guess and question something that happened 20 years ago which you had already discussed then?
> 
> Time to get off TAM.
> 
> This place can feed insecurities and create problems and even ruin good relationships because there are a lot of people who are quite raw with recent infidelities and are suffering so their advice is going to send you down a rabbit hole with _no upside_ for you or your marriage.


Have you not read all that the OP has written.

Good times, with triggering then not having sex for periods of time because of the triggers. Having periods of being passive aggressive is not a good marriage. This BH as any other BH needs to know the truth.


----------



## theroad

norajane said:


> Are you seeking to destabilize a good marriage?


Are you blind?

Can you not see the difference between having some good times does not mean the marriage is good and the relationship is healthy?


----------



## theroad

aug said:


> It doesn't look like he was fine. He tried burying it. It wont stayed buried. That's the more likely reason he was drawn to TAM.
> 
> He should deal with it now. Get it open. Expose to sunlight and then deal with it - if there's anything there.


Exactly this BH as any other BH needs the truth. I have seen BH's that have gone over 30 years searching for the truth.

I guess this WW does not want her BH to ever forget the past because she keeps him searching for the truth.


----------



## theroad

norajane said:


> Except she's not going to tell him anything different than she's been telling him. She can't prove she didn't do anything more than what she's said, and he can't prove she did. So I don't see what pursuing this further is going to do except keep him mired in this line of thinking.
> 
> 20 years of a good marriage is not something to just toss away, especially when children are involved, especially when the grass is hardly greener after divorce. At this point, he either trusts her or he doesn't and then has to divorce because he can't be married to someone he doesn't trust and I can't imagine she'd want to be married to someone who keeps accusing her and doesn't trust her after all this time.


Getting the truth does not mean the BH has to divorce his WW. They can actually heal their marriage and have a better marriage now then what they have been having.


----------



## theroad

20PlusYears said:


> Truthseeker1, what you said about her confession is the one saving grace that make me think that she is telling me the truth abou the sex. As I said in my original post, we were doing great at the time that she confessed. I never had any idea that something had happened. She could have taken this knowledge to her grave and I would have never been the wiser.


When you have been here long enough you will learn that nothing happened means they kissed.

When a WW says they just kissed the had sex.

When a WW admits to sex but it was just once, they did it lots of times.


----------



## MrK

Don't read too much into her coming clean at first. She may have had reason to believe he was going to hear something and just wanted to beat him to the punch. That minimal confession years later sounds fishy.


----------



## theroad

This WW needs to take a polygraph.

Asking her to take a test should not upset or make this WW fear the test because it will only prove that she has been telling the truth.

That is if she has been telling the truth. Which WW's never do. They are always minimizing and doing damage control.


----------



## 3putt

I can relate to this guy. I think he did a good job way back when to nip it the bud, but he never got the full explanation of just how big that bud had grown. I would feel the same way he does right now if I were him. It's pretty obvious to me that 20 years after the fact and he's coming here for answers, it must be eating away at him pretty badly. I would also bet it's eating away at her as well....and possibly, even worse.

This whole sitch reminds me of this:



> Joseph's Letter
> 
> This is a post by Joseph, a member of the now defunct BAN Message Board. He wrote to this letter to his wife to explain why he asked for details of her affair.
> 
> To Whomever,
> 
> I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly.
> 
> No one wants to be forced to 'look' at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn’t mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn’t he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I’m going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.
> 
> You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge.
> 
> You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you’re carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the 'STUFF' to figure out OUR reality. There isn’t really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don’t have.
> 
> Now let’s enter my reality. Let’s both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down.
> 
> To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever 'feel' complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are.
> 
> When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what’s the difference, it’s not important.
> 
> Then later when I’m expected to understand the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it.
> 
> You wonder why I can’t just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.
> 
> So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don’t you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart.
> 
> I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.
> 
> So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together.
> 
> It doesn’t come from jealousy, it doesn’t come from spitefulness, and it doesn’t come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn’t it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn’t it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can’t and the reason I can’t is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world.


I can't even begin to imagine carrying this around for 20 years...on both sides. Nora, good marriage? How in the name of God can you have a good marriage based on this kind of suspicion and doubt? Oh, you can limp through it and survive, but thrive? I seriously doubt it.

He wouldn't even be here if he were thriving, huh?


----------



## workindad

If she hasn't been able to fully disclose after 20 years. My guess is that was definitely fvcking him. That is her hang up and you guys never addressed the truth. Now she would also have to face 20 years of lies. 

Perhaps you should tell her that you are still suffering because she has not fully disclosed everything and that you want your marriage with her It seems to me that you are willing to forgive if she would come clean. Tell her that you don't want the doubt and mind movies that it is unfair and hurting your marriage. If she did fvck him, you just want to know after all these years. She has been a good wife and mom for the past 20 years and you want to finally put it to rest so you can heal and only she can provide what you need. 

Be prepared though. Do you really think scumbag om was hanging around for kissing? If it wasn't full on sex it was at least oral. 

Good luck. 

I do not believe you should just let it go. If it were that easy or doable you wouldn't be asking the question after all this time. 

Good luck
WD
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

However this turns out - it shows how terribly sad and destructive infidelity can be to a person's soul. Despite 20+ years of a happy marriage it is still there....it is really sad.....


----------



## ThePheonix

I have to agree with you 3Putt that having a good marriage with the ghost of Christmas past has been haunting him was a real trick. At any rate, it looks like our man 20+ has a couple or three of real life choices to make. One is he can go one like it is, with suspicion and doubt. Two, he can accept she may have slept with the guy and say, "hey, she's been a good wife all these years so even if she did, it didn't spoil the meal so I'll forgive her however far it went. Three, I can request a polygraph which she has the right to take or not take (and he'll have to draw whatever inference he wants which will take him back to one or two).
The poly, if she takes it, may turn out good or bad but he'll know.
Two options are not available to him and he knows it. First he's not going to divorce her. Second, without the poly, he'll never know whether she's tell the truth. If she says she never slept with the guy he's not believing her. If she say she did, but it was once, twice, or three time, he won't believe her. 20+ is up to his azz in alligators and there's no good way out. 
Lesson to be learned is don't marry a chick that has a traveling job. It'll make you paranoid.


----------



## aug

Consider this fellow:
After 77 Years Of Wedded Bliss, 99-Year-Old Husband Files For Divorce
Italian Man, 99, Divorcing Wife of 77 Years Over 60-Year-Old Affair - ABC News
99-year-old divorces wife after he discovered 1940s affair - Telegraph


Imagine 77 years of this...


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

norajane said:


> But he didn't rug sweep. He questioned, he made her quit her job, etc. They had dealt with it.
> 
> Now, for some unknown reason, he's working himself up on TAM all over again.


He worked himself up LONG before TAM. This isn't a website you are going to find randomly on a search engine.

Something happened that triggered this new doubt over something 20 years old.


----------



## tom67

phillybeffandswiss said:


> He worked himself up LONG before TAM. This isn't a website you are going to find randomly on a search engine.
> 
> Something happened that triggered this new doubt over something 20 years old.


That's what I asked him earlier but did not get an answer. Something happened recently just my opinion.


----------



## Rugs

I only read your first post and not all the other pages but yes, if all has been good for 20 years, I would let it go.

I must say, I know in my heart, my husband never loved me. We have been married 21 years. He never cared what I did or who I was with. Never took me out, never bought me a gift for any occasion, never did any activities as a family when our children were young, and, oh yes, he cheated on me for years. He always had a lack of indifference about me and that equals no love. 

If you have had 20 happy years as you say you have had, be lucky you have had those. Some of us never had one happy year.


----------



## AlphaHalf

> I have directly confronted her on this issue many times over many years. Unfortunately, all I have is her word to go on. She vehemently denies that sex took place. However, when I questioned her on was it making out, fondling petting, etc. Then she clams up and doesn't want to discuss.


This post right here is key to him wanting the truth. Who cares if 20 years has been good. It doesn't make up for the fact that she cannot tell him what happened. Why clam up? More lies? 

People have been known to compartmentalize their affair and lead a double life. Everything could seem good because its 20yrs of cake eating for all he knows. All he asks her to do is tell the complete truth and she wont do that..


----------



## JCD

Here is the deal:

I try and look at things from all perspectives.

So, at 20 y.o. you accidentally hit a neighbor's car. You go to them, you apologize, you pay for the car, heck, you even wash and wax it a few times.

Three cars later, the neighbor STILL yells at you about the car.

You, as an ordinary human being, would resent the hell out if that, even if you never revealed that you had a little grass when you hit the car. YOU FEEL YOU PAID THE PRICE.

Sir, how many details do you need? The number of kisses? Tongue vs no tongue? Whether his lips touched her bosom? If she did oral, are you going to feel comfortable kissing her again despite the GALLONS of mouthwash and dentist visits she's had?

Are you willing to have your happy affectionate wife become a resentful wife for the next 6 months?

Is there ANYTHING that she can do to make you feel 'over it'?

Many of the BS here feel that a WS owes them always and forever as long as they feel a little pain. Most of them didn't try or do not have a successful R.

So what is the statute of limitations on a kiss, a BJ, or a fvck? How long would YOU be willing to pay for an indiscretion?

When you have answers to these questions and talk to an IC, then you might be able to discuss these issues with her...or not.

Bear this in mind to: she is not the only person in life to 'betray' you which you didn't get the full truth about. Mom, dad, siblings. You found a way to live with them after the fact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rugs

JCD said:


> Here is the deal:
> 
> I try and look at things from all perspectives.
> 
> So, at 20 y.o. you accidentally hit a neighbor's car. You go to them, you apologize, you pay for the car, heck, you even wash and wax it a few times.
> 
> Three cars later, the neighbor STILL yells at you about the car.
> 
> You, as an ordinary human being, would resent the hell out if that, even if you never revealed that you had a little grass when you hit the car. YOU FEEL YOU PAID THE PRICE.
> 
> Sir, how many details do you need? The number of kisses? Tongue vs no tongue? Whether his lips touched her bosom? If she did oral, are you going to feel comfortable kissing her again despite the GALLONS of mouthwash and dentist visits she's had?
> 
> Are you willing to have your happy affectionate wife become a resentful wife for the next 6 months?
> 
> Is there ANYTHING that she can do to make you feel 'over it'?
> 
> Many of the BS here feel that a WS owes them always and forever as long as they feel a little pain. Most of them didn't try or do not have a successful R.
> 
> So what is the statute of limitations on a kiss, a BJ, or a fvck? How long would YOU be willing to pay for an indiscretion?
> 
> When you have answers to these questions and talk to an IC, then you might be able to discuss these issues with her...or not.
> 
> Bear this in mind to: she is not the only person in life to 'betray' you which you didn't get the full truth about. Mom, dad, siblings. You found a way to live with them after the fact.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:


----------



## MattMatt

20PlusYears said:


> Just to clear up a few things.
> 
> The guy she had the affair with did not work with her. He was not attending the function; she had already left Hawaii at this time. She was just making a statement that if he were there he would have gone with her.


*That, my friend, is a red flag.*

If it bothers you this much, you should seek marriage counselling.

20 years. That's a long time. Is it? Only 20 birthdays ago, 20 winters ago...


----------



## Hurtin_Still

MattMatt said:


> *That, my friend, is a red flag.*
> 
> If it bothers you this much, you should seek marriage counselling.
> 
> 20 years. That's a long time. Is it? Only 20 birthdays ago, 20 winters ago...


...yup ...20 years is NOT a long time. My wife's ONS was +18 yrs ago ...and when you feel that you are not getting / have not been given the whole truth ...it NEVER goes away. It's that splinter under the skin that you just never got completely removed ...and when you rub that area in just a certain way ....you feel it all over again.


----------



## JCD

Hurtin_Still said:


> ...yup ...20 years is NOT a long time. My wife's ONS was +18 yrs ago ...and when you feel that you are not getting / have not been given the whole truth ...it NEVER goes away. It's that splinter under the skin that you just never got completely removed ...and when you rub that area in just a certain way ....you feel it all over again.


Stop rubbing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

norajane said:


> Are you seeking to destabilize a good marriage?


Yay! A marriage based on an affair and on 20 years of subsequent lies!

I am sorry, norajane, but that does not equate to a "good" marriage to me.

His wife has a secret. She knows what she did. But she decided to plan b her husband.

And yes, norrajane, I was my wife's plan b, so I do have some expertise in this area.

But then, my wife didn't lie to me about her affair...


----------



## Truthseeker1

20plusyears,, what have you decided?


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

So, she was lying to you for 20yrs if she accept that they had sex. So she sticking to her story is understandable.

I strongly believe they had sex because they were young and alone, they were in love, none was there **** blocking him or her, they kissed, they fondled multiple time. then, what prevented hem from having real sex?

But what you might have done if she told you she had sex at that time?

Actually you have been living with this baggage for 20yrs, don't you think its time to keep the baggage some where and move on with your life? She wont tell you the truth. Then can you ask her for a polygraph?


----------



## Hurtin_Still

JCD said:


> Stop rubbing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



....I wish I could.


----------



## Truthseeker1

JCD said:


> Stop rubbing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is not helpful..have you ever been cheated on?


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

norajane said:


> Like I said, TAM is feeding into your insecurities and making you feel worse. Enjoy.




TAM didn't send him an invitation letter to join this site, he searched for it, he came here for help. No one come to this sites if everything is fine in their marriage.

Regarding his insecurities I didn't see any insecurity in his posts. Then making him feel worse TAM didn't make him feel worse, it is his wife's cheating which made him feel worse for the past 20yrs.

He tried your advice to believe her (even though he didn't) and move on for 20yrs but he couldn't, so he should do all the things which can relieve him from his misery and if the OPs wife is truly remorseful and truthful she will gladly accept his request as this will relieve her also.

If she had sex, Does it means he should Divorce her? No, if he can get past it with MC and IC then they should really try hard for salvaging his marriage.


----------



## BradWesley

To the OP:

Take the advice offered here on TAM, with a large grain of salt. There are some, not all, BS who were betrayed, but are also very, very bitter people. They will assume that a kiss, went further than that, because that's what happened to them. They process an assumption into a fact, based on their own experience. Some are members of the Misery Loves Company Club. and are always looking to recruit new members.

Don't let amateur psychologists poison your mind, seek professional help if needed.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Truthseeker1 said:


> That is not helpful..


 I actually took his sticker analogy differently. I was thinking of the sticker under the skin, like he said, that you know is there, but won't go to the doctor (counselor) to have it removed. You know, "I'm a MAN, it'll work itself out." Then you do something and it flares up. You dig, gouge, create a new wound, think you removed it and it heals over not completely. 

They both should have found a counselor (doctor).


----------



## Truthseeker1

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I actually took his sticker analogy differently. different. I was thinking of the sticker under the skin, like he said, that you know is there, but won't go to the doctor to remove. You know, "I'm a MAN, it'll work itself out." Then you do something and it flares up. You dig, gouge, create a new wound, think you removed it and it heals over not completely.
> 
> They both should have found a counselor.


I just took it as an offhand remark...if it hurts when you rub it..sto rubbing it..its not that easy...


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Truthseeker1 said:


> I just took it as an offhand remark...if it hurts when you rub it..sto rubbing it..its not that easy...


That's my point. You think you've dealt with something and then a trigger happens, you rub the wound, someone asks what it is, another person picks at it and the pain returns.

The OP hasn't answered Tom's question, as to why it flared up to the point he posted. No, it isn't just reading TAM, something happened that made him search out how to deal with an affair. 

Oh and I'm not just blaming the wife. There could be a myriad of reasons that fall squarely on his shoulders.


----------



## 20PlusYears

Update:
I wanted to give myself some time to read and really contemplate what it is that I need to resolve and get answers to as well as what would I do once I have the answers to those questions. Unfortunately, I did not get that time as my wife is aware of my activity on the site and got on and found my post and began reading. This resulted in us having to discuss this issue earlier than I anticipated. Of course she feels that some are transplanting their own issues and what happened to them onto her, which could be valid in some cases, but as a whole I think that most were being fair.

Anyway, taking the advice of one poster, I questioned her on her definition of sex. Is it just intercourse, or does it include oral as well? She stated that she did not give or receive oral and there was no intercourse. I next asked again was it more than just kissing? Did you make out, which include fondling, petting, etc. I could tell that she was hesitant to answering this question. She began looking very uncomfortable and appeared to have a difficult time looking me in the eye. Every time that I would ask about the sex, she would look me in the eyes and confidently say no. However, I never thought to ask this question until a couple of days ago, when she clammed up.

I could tell by her demeanor that I had the answer to my question. I thought to ask for details…but wasn't sure if this was something that I wanted to know. She did not offer any details, only to say that she has tried to repress those memories. She said that she is ashamed of what she did, and that she she never thought that she could do that to me. I didn't want to press further with the details as she essentially confirmed that the sessions included heavy making out. Honesty I feel so stupid for never thinking to ask that question. Unfortunately, this forum wasn't available for me 20 years ago.

She says that she will take a polygraph to assuage my doubt regarding the sex, and that I can ask any question during so. Again, I believe her regarding the sex, so not sure that a poly is necessary at this point. She said that I forgave her for cheating years ago regardless of the extent of the affair, which is technically true. However, I told her that if I had the information then that I have now, I would most likely have made a decision to terminate the marriage. We had only been married for 2 years and had no kids together. Today is a different matter.

I keep reminding myself that this was 20 years ago and she has been a faithful wife since. Her affair wasn't a drunken ONS that she can say was a mistake but a deliberate choice to go outside of the marriage. Again as I type this, I have to remind myself that I did forgive her and reconcile after she confessed. When I found out she cheated on me, my view of her diminished a little. After learning the extent of the affair it has diminished once again. As far as I'm concern, I've continued to be lied to for 20 years…even if it was a lie of omission.

Someone asked the question earlier (what will I do if I get my answer?) That's a question that continues to go unanswered for now. I love my family and will not do anything to destroy what we've have built over these 20 years. However, this acknowledgement of them making out has left me somewhat melancholy. Before I had the mind movies of them kissing to deal with, now I have this to play in my head. Fortunately, having learned how to control the movies from the last time, I should be able to minimize the impact that they WILL have on our relationship.

Thank you all for you support and advice.


----------



## Truthseeker1

phillybeffandswiss said:


> That's my point. You think you've dealt with something and then a trigger happens, you rub the wound, someone asks what it is, another person picks at it and the pain returns.
> 
> The OP hasn't answered Tom's question, as to why it flared up to the point he posted. No, it isn't just reading TAM, something happened that made him search out how to deal with an affair.
> 
> Oh and I'm not just blaming the wife. There could be a myriad of reasons that fall squarely on his shoulders.


This thread along with many others show why complete honesty must be a precursor to any true reconciliation...unless the affair is fully and truthfully dealt with it will be an untreated wound...


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

20PlusYears said:


> Update:
> I wanted to give myself some time to read and really contemplate what it is that I need to resolve and get answers to as well as what would I do once I have the answers to those questions. Unfortunately, I did not get that time as my wife is aware of my activity on the site and got on and found my post and began reading. This resulted in us having to discuss this issue earlier than I anticipated. Of course she feels that some are transplanting their own issues and what happened to them onto her, which could be valid in some cases, but as a whole I think that most were being fair.
> 
> Anyway, taking the advice of one poster, I questioned her on her definition of sex. Is it just intercourse, or does it include oral as well? She stated that she did not give or receive oral and there was no intercourse. I next asked again was it more than just kissing? Did you make out, which include fondling, petting, etc. I could tell that she was hesitant to answering this question. She began looking very uncomfortable and appeared to have a difficult time looking me in the eye. Every time that I would ask about the sex, she would look me in the eyes and confidently say no. However, I never thought to ask this question until a couple of days ago, when she clammed up.
> 
> I could tell by her demeanor that I had the answer to my question. I thought to ask for details…but wasn't sure if this was something that I wanted to know. She did not offer any details, only to say that she has tried to repress those memories. She said that she is ashamed of what she did, and that she she never thought that she could do that to me. I didn't want to press further with the details as she essentially confirmed that the sessions included heavy making out. Honesty I feel so stupid for never thinking to ask that question. Unfortunately, this forum wasn't available for me 20 years ago.
> 
> She says that she will take a polygraph to assuage my doubt regarding the sex, and that I can ask any question during so. Again, I believe her regarding the sex, so not sure that a poly is necessary at this point. She said that I forgave her for cheating years ago regardless of the extent of the affair, which is technically true. However, I told her that if I had the information then that I have now, I would most likely have made a decision to terminate the marriage. We had only been married for 2 years and had no kids together. Today is a different matter.
> 
> I keep reminding myself that this was 20 years ago and she has been a faithful wife since. Her affair wasn't a drunken ONS that she can say was a mistake but a deliberate choice to go outside of the marriage. Again as I type this, I have to remind myself that I did forgive her and reconcile after she confessed. When I found out she cheated on me, my view of her diminished a little. After learning the extent of the affair it has diminished once again. As far as I'm concern, I've continued to be lied to for 20 years…even if it was a lie of omission.
> 
> Someone asked the question earlier (what will I do if I get my answer?) That's a question that continues to go unanswered for now. I love my family and will not do anything to destroy what we've have built over these 20 years. However, this acknowledgement of them making out has left me somewhat melancholy. Before I had the mind movies of them kissing to deal with, now I have this to play in my head. Fortunately, having learned how to control the movies from the last time, I should be able to minimize the impact that they WILL have on our relationship.
> 
> Thank you all for you support and advice.


If this is good enough for you, stop reading this thread. I do not say this to be mean to you or other posters, but people will keep the doubt going.



> She says that she will take a polygraph to assuage my doubt regarding the sex, and that I can ask any question during so. Again, I believe her regarding the sex, so not sure that a poly is necessary at this point. She said that *I forgave her for cheating years ago regardless of the extent of the affair,* which is technically true. However, I told her that if I had the information then that I have now, I would most likely have made a decision to terminate the marriage. We had only been married for 2 years and had no kids together. Today is a different matter.


She's right and it isn't technically true, it is 100% true if you uttered those words. You learned a valuable lesson, don't agree to ANYTHING before you have the full story.


----------



## JCD

Truthseeker1 said:


> That is not helpful..have you ever been cheated on?


No, but I have had to let go injustices and offenses against me. I have had to forgive stuff that very much hurt me.

How is this any different except as a matter of degree?


----------



## 20PlusYears

To answer the question of how I came to TAM, I came because I was being accused of having an EA with a colleague of mine a couple of years back. At this time I had no idea of that was.

I still feel that what I was doing wasn't an ea but this site helped me realize even though I was completely open with my wife about my interaction with this woman even copying her on our email correspondence. But because my wife wasn't confortable with us communicating I should respect that and end communication with this woman, which is what I did..sending a no contact letter cc'ing my wife. All of this I learned from the good people of this site.

I stayed on after this incident as I mentioned earlier to affair proof my marriage. There is a lot of good advice administered through this site and I wanted to take advantage of it. But as Nora stated, this site can also feed your insercurities and the whole kiss=sex is what really sent me down the rabbit hole.


----------



## Truthseeker1

20PlusYears said:


> Update:
> I wanted to give myself some time to read and really contemplate what it is that I need to resolve and get answers to as well as what would I do once I have the answers to those questions. Unfortunately, I did not get that time as my wife is aware of my activity on the site and got on and found my post and began reading. This resulted in us having to discuss this issue earlier than I anticipated. Of course she feels that some are transplanting their own issues and what happened to them onto her, which could be valid in some cases, but as a whole I think that most were being fair.
> 
> Anyway, taking the advice of one poster, I questioned her on her definition of sex. Is it just intercourse, or does it include oral as well? She stated that she did not give or receive oral and there was no intercourse. I next asked again was it more than just kissing? Did you make out, which include fondling, petting, etc. I could tell that she was hesitant to answering this question. She began looking very uncomfortable and appeared to have a difficult time looking me in the eye. Every time that I would ask about the sex, she would look me in the eyes and confidently say no. However, I never thought to ask this question until a couple of days ago, when she clammed up.
> 
> I could tell by her demeanor that I had the answer to my question. I thought to ask for details…but wasn't sure if this was something that I wanted to know. She did not offer any details, only to say that she has tried to repress those memories. She said that she is ashamed of what she did, and that she she never thought that she could do that to me. I didn't want to press further with the details as she essentially confirmed that the sessions included heavy making out. Honesty I feel so stupid for never thinking to ask that question. Unfortunately, this forum wasn't available for me 20 years ago.
> 
> She says that she will take a polygraph to assuage my doubt regarding the sex, and that I can ask any question during so. Again, I believe her regarding the sex, so not sure that a poly is necessary at this point. She said that I forgave her for cheating years ago regardless of the extent of the affair, which is technically true. However, I told her that if I had the information then that I have now, I would most likely have made a decision to terminate the marriage. We had only been married for 2 years and had no kids together. Today is a different matter.
> 
> I keep reminding myself that this was 20 years ago and she has been a faithful wife since. Her affair wasn't a drunken ONS that she can say was a mistake but a deliberate choice to go outside of the marriage. Again as I type this, I have to remind myself that I did forgive her and reconcile after she confessed. When I found out she cheated on me, my view of her diminished a little. After learning the extent of the affair it has diminished once again. As far as I'm concern, I've continued to be lied to for 20 years…even if it was a lie of omission.
> 
> Someone asked the question earlier (what will I do if I get my answer?) That's a question that continues to go unanswered for now. I love my family and will not do anything to destroy what we've have built over these 20 years. However, this acknowledgement of them making out has left me somewhat melancholy. Before I had the mind movies of them kissing to deal with, now I have this to play in my head. Fortunately, having learned how to control the movies from the last time, I should be able to minimize the impact that they WILL have on our relationship.
> 
> Thank you all for you support and advice.


I believe her...as much as one can tell from a message board she really seems to love you...now sign out and go out to dinner tonight....keep on making new better memories...the heavy making out does suck but it was 20+ years ago and she has been a good wife since then...*plus she confessed you didn't catch her...* that should be in her favor....look you have a family and a life - don't let this ruin it...


----------



## Truthseeker1

JCD said:


> No, but I have had to let go injustices and offenses against me. I have had to forgive stuff that very much hurt me.
> 
> How is this any different except as a matter of degree?


It's an offhanded remark to someone who is hurting...unless you have had someone you love cheat on you don't diminish what he is going through....


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

20PlusYears said:


> To answer the question of how I came to TAM, I came because I was being accused of having an EA with a colleague of mine a couple of years back.


 Yep that's what I thought. She knew the signs, knew she lied and freaked out. Cheaters are extremely big hypocrites, but they lived through the signs so they know them well.

Thanks for the answer.


----------



## JCD

phillybeffandswiss said:


> If this is good enough for, stop reading this thread. I do not say this to be mean to you or other posters, but people will keep the doubt going.
> 
> She's right and it isn't technically true, it is 100% true if you uttered those words. You learned a valuable lesson, don't agree to ANYTHING before you have the full story.


Exactly!

He has his answer. His wife played tonsil hockey with another man.

AND...she didn't allow it to go further. So while I would be pretty upset that she didn't shut this guy down immediately, much less let things get that far, it was kissing and fondling.

Guess what? If I was kissing and fondling someone not my spouse, I'd be turned on. If the OP was kissing and fondling someone else, he'd be turned on.

So...yeah, she was turned on. It's biology.

It was also 20 years ago. And yes, she's diminished in your eyes...twice. This is now part of the price she pays by not being forthright then.

BUT...OP...if she had been straightforward, you admitted you'd be divorced now. Did you 'waste' the last 20 years of your life? Do you regret your kids? Or...do you just regret not getting the truth? Do you regret that for a while, she was an untrustworthy person?

Before you pushed this issue, would you have a problem if she went away for a night to visit relatives?

If the answer is no, then you mostly trust her. Nothing has changed. Cause you suspected what she did then...and you offered forgiveness anyway. And she didn't do nearly as much as you feared.

This is GOOD news.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Your wife lied to you for 20 years. You would have divorced her if you had had the truth. That's quite a betrayal in my book.

Since then you believe she has been faithful. Considering the fact that she lied to you for 20 years I'm not sure I'd believe that without a polygraph, which she has agreed to, so you might want to go ahead with that. If she passes or you decide to just continue trusting her you still need counseling, both IC and MC. It seems the two of you have built a good life together that is worth keeping, but you at least need IC about the deception.


----------



## MattMatt

BradWesley said:


> To the OP:
> 
> Take the advice offered here on TAM, with a large grain of salt. There are some, not all, BS who were betrayed, but are also very, very bitter people. They will assume that a kiss, went further than that, because that's what happened to them. They process an assumption into a fact, based on their own experience. Some are members of the Misery Loves Company Club. and are always looking to recruit new members.
> 
> Don't let amateur psychologists poison your mind, seek professional help if needed.


Thing is Brad, even if the wife did have sex with her lover, her husband and she can still reconcile and get through this.

But only with 100% honesty and transparency.

It's a gut feeling that there's more to come out.


----------



## Truthseeker1

MattMatt said:


> Thing is Brad, even if the wife did have sex with her lover, her husband and she can still reconcile and get through this.
> 
> But only with 100% honesty and transparency.
> 
> It's a gut feeling that there's more to come out.


Like what? She is willing to tke a polygraph test...


----------



## MattMatt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> If this is good enough for you, stop reading this thread. I do not say this to be mean to you or other posters, but people will keep the doubt going.
> 
> She's right and it isn't technically true, it is 100% true if you uttered those words. You learned a valuable lesson, don't agree to ANYTHING before you have the full story.


*
Well, no. That's not quite true, is it?*

Let's take the following exchange between a shoplifter and a shopkeeper:

"Sir! I did not steal from your shop. I only fondled some apples!"

On that basis, he is forgiven.

Later... "Sir! I am so sorry! I remember I did not only fondle some of your apples, I stoke and ate three bananas, an orange and a kumquat! But it's OK, isn't it? Because you did forgive me before, right?" 

Forgiveness must be based on honestly.

And a wife who doesn't remember the love affair but who does remember the lover's name 20 years later and in a romantic kind of a way, well, what kind of a wife is that?

It might be interesting to know, who exactly, ended their relationship?

My spidey sense says he did, because he did not want her.

There's more to this than meets the eyes.

Counselling of an intense, open and honest kind, is required. Both will benefit from it.


----------



## MattMatt

Truthseeker1 said:


> Like what? She is willing to tke a polygraph test...


My wife got me into the Jeremy Kyle show. The amount of people on that show who believe they can beat the lie detector test is incredible. Yet when they are outed as a liar by the test, they then take the opportunity to tell their destroyed spouse: "Yes, I am afraid I did have sex with your best friend. And now I'm really, really sorry."
_
Removed as it was wrong! I am an idiot._

I really, really hope there's genuinely been no contact between the two of them.

These, and other issues, should be addressed in counselling sessions and with a lie detector session with well-drafted questions.


----------



## MattMatt

JCD said:


> No, but I have had to let go injustices and offenses against me. I have had to forgive stuff that very much hurt me.
> 
> How is this any different except as a matter of degree?


I have had both happen to me. 

Please believe me when I say that the difference is incredible. Really, horribly incredible.


----------



## Truthseeker1

MattMatt said:


> My wife got me into the Jeremy Kyle show. The amount of people on that show who believe they can beat the lie detector test is incredible. Yet when they are outed as a liar by the test, they then take the opportunity to tell their destroyed spouse: "Yes, I am afraid I did have sex with your best friend. And now I'm really, really sorry."
> 
> *I am a little worried that his wife was able to raise the name of her former lover in a way that might be viewed as romantic. **20 years after it was supposed to be all over!*
> 
> I really, really hope there's genuinely been no contact between the two of them.
> 
> These, and other issues, should be addressed in counselling sessions and with a lie detector session with well-drafted questions.


When did she do that?


----------



## jnj express

Hey 20PY---do you honestly think there is a huge amount of difference tween heavy making out, French kissing---the whole passionate kissing , when making out---as opposed to allowing penetration-------it is not the same as to physical attributes---but it sure as he*l is the same as to mental state

She gave herself, lock stock and barrel to her lover---she didn't give a rats a*s about you at the time, tho you were married----and also married, in your early years when for her, there should have been no once else in the whole world but you, as it is early in a mge

Her discomfort about the whole making out situation---tells you she was into her lover----maybe they didn't go beyond the kissing, but I promise you it satisfied her needs, and those needs were very sexual at the time

What you now have to deal with is can your sub--conscious ever get over this-----and will the visions ever stop---cuz I am sure you have visions of her in her lovers arms, doing some heavy making out---and in some ways that can be tougher to stomach than visions of sexual penetration---

This is all gonna depend on how you can live with this---cuz it will come to you---again, and again, and again for the rest of your life---it comes with the territory

Your wife can now be the best wife ever---but for three months 20 yrs ago---she discarded you and gave herself to another man---she allowed him to take her, at your expense---that is what your sub--conscious is forcing you to deal with

It will hit you at 2 a m when awake next to your sleeping wife---it will hit you as you drive to work---it will hit you when you are at work----Maybe IC---can help you---but unfortunately the damage is done---and your sub--c is not gonna let this go away-----cuz in all actuality, what real difference is there tween heavy making out, and penetration---its all the same---she "dissed" you and gave herself to another----how you deal with it is up to you


----------



## lordmayhem

JCD said:


> Here is the deal:
> 
> I try and look at things from all perspectives.
> 
> So, at 20 y.o. you accidentally hit a neighbor's car. You go to them, you apologize, you pay for the car, heck, you even wash and wax it a few times.
> 
> Three cars later, the neighbor STILL yells at you about the car.
> 
> You, as an ordinary human being, would resent the hell out if that, even if you never revealed that you had a little grass when you hit the car. YOU FEEL YOU PAID THE PRICE.


I disagree, and this is a completely wrong analogy. For one, you accidentally hit your neighbors car. This affair was NO ACCIDENT. Secondly, you owned up to being at fault by paying for the damage, washed & waxed it. The OP here, NEVER got full disclosure. Instead he received Trickle Truth...for 20 damn years. No wonder he's resentful and cannot heal. He needs Full Disclosure to heal. 

A better analogy would be that you were driving, saw another car you liked, then hit your neighbor's car because you were careless, then denied to your neighbor that you hit his car. Then in a moment of carelessness, you admit to the neighbor that you merely "grazed" his car, but deny actually hitting it. But you have a good relationship with this neighbor, even though he strongly suspects you did more than graze his car.


----------



## lordmayhem

20PlusYears said:


> She says that she will take a polygraph to assuage my doubt regarding the sex, and that I can ask any question during so. Again, I believe her regarding the sex, so not sure that a poly is necessary at this point. She said that I forgave her for cheating years ago regardless of the extent of the affair, which is technically true. However, I told her that if I had the information then that I have now, I would most likely have made a decision to terminate the marriage. We had only been married for 2 years and had no kids together. Today is a different matter.


If you need the polygraph to settle all your doubts and finally heal, then do so. I've read many stories where the WS claims that they will take a polygraph, then when the BS actually schedules it, the WS will balk and say it's not necessary. 

You would be surprised at how many cheaters can look you straight in the eye and say they didn't have sex. If there's one thing I've learned here and other sites and from my own experience, they can lie straight to your face without flinching. They can swear on the lives of their children, swear on the lives of their parents, and even swear on the Holy Bible. My own fWW swore on the bible and said God is her witness. Yeah,right. So keep that in mind.


----------



## MattMatt

Truthseeker1 said:


> When did she do that?


Ah. Sorry. I misread it.



> One evening she asked me to attend a function with her that I didn’t want to go to, I'm not sure if it was guilt or what, but she kind of jokingly said that her friend would have taken her. I enquired as to who this friend was.


That's not 20 years later, but some short time after the affair.

Sorry. My error.


----------



## ThePheonix

Truthseeker1 said:


> now sign out and go out to dinner tonight....keep on making new better memories...the heavy making out does suck but it was 20+ years ago and she has been a good wife since then...*plus she confessed you didn't catch her...* that should be in her favor....look you have a family and a life - don't let this ruin it...


This is absolutely the best advice I think I've ever heard. 20+, you better damn well follow it. Ask yourself, "do I want to be happy or do I want to keep pursuing this".


----------



## Truthseeker1

ThePheonix said:


> This is absolutely the best advice I think I've ever heard. 20+, you better damn well follow it. Ask yourself, "do I want to be happy or do I want to keep pursuing this".


Another thing that occurred to me...if she was this awful liar..would it have not manifested itself in other ways during the past 20 years? 20+y - said she's been a great wife and mother....

Look I don't know them but could it be that there is nothing more to the story than he already knows? No hidden feelings or clandestine sex - anything is possible - I just wish 20+y some peace and happiness...


----------



## aug

JCD said:


> Bear this in mind to: she is not the only person in life to 'betray' you which you didn't get the full truth about. * Mom, dad, siblings. * You found a way to live with them after the fact.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Hopefully you're not having sex with them too.


----------



## norajane

lordmayhem said:


> You would be surprised at how many cheaters can look you straight in the eye and say they didn't have sex. If there's one thing I've learned here and other sites and from my own experience, they can lie straight to your face without flinching. They can swear on the lives of their children, swear on the lives of their parents, and even swear on the Holy Bible. My own fWW swore on the bible and said God is her witness. Yeah,right. So keep that in mind.


You could flip that around and say that about the OP as well, since 20+ had an EA. 

Oh, he's a cheater who is trickle-truthing about his EA, he banged her no question, it must have been a PA, he needs to take a polygraph to prove to his wife that he didn't bang her, he's probably still in touch with her but he's gone underground so you'll have to plant VAR's and keyloggers to catch him...if the OP's wife was posting here about his EA, that's exactly what she would be told by this crowd. 

Yet, 20+ says he doesn't even think it was really an EA, god is his witness...is he lying? He must be because that's what cheaters do, they lie...

Every situation is not the same and one size doesn't fit all. So maybe keep that in mind.


----------



## Truthseeker1

norajane said:


> You could flip that around and say that about the OP as well, since 20+ had an EA.
> 
> Oh, he's a cheater who is trickle-truthing about his EA, he banged her no question, it must have been a PA, he needs to take a polygraph to prove to his wife that he didn't bang her, he's probably still in touch with her but he's gone underground so you'll have to plant VAR's and keyloggers to catch him...if the OP's wife was posting here about his EA, that's exactly what she would be told by this crowd.
> 
> Yet, 20+ says he doesn't even think it was really an EA, god is his witness...is he lying? He must be because that's what cheaters do, they lie...
> 
> Every situation is not the same and one size doesn't fit all. So maybe keep that in mind.


:iagree: Bingo.....


----------



## Nucking Futs

Truthseeker1 said:


> Another thing that occurred to me...if she was this awful liar..would it have not manifested itself in other ways during the past 20 years? 20+y - said she's been a great wife and mother....
> 
> Look I don't know them but could it be that there is nothing more to the story than he already knows? No hidden feelings or clandestine sex - anything is possible - I just wish 20+y some peace and happiness...


What makes you think she's an awful liar after 20 years of practice? She might be a really great liar.


----------



## soccermom2three

Did you specifically ask her if either of them orgasmed? IMO, if they did, then it was certainly sex. I can't imagine two 20-something's getting each other all worked up without getting each other off. Even if its just with their hands.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Nucking Futs said:


> What makes you think she's an awful liar after 20 years of practice? She might be a really great liar.


To clarify it was poorly opharased I meant an awful person...not awful liar...


----------



## Nucking Futs

Truthseeker1 said:


> To clarify it was poorly opharased I meant an awful person...not awful liar...


Hah! I read that _way_ wrong! Sorry.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Nucking Futs said:


> Hah! I read that _way_ wrong! Sorry.


No worries I should have phrased it better


----------



## MattMatt

norajane said:


> You could flip that around and say that about the OP as well, since 20+ had an EA.
> 
> Oh, he's a cheater who is trickle-truthing about his EA, he banged her no question, it must have been a PA, he needs to take a polygraph to prove to his wife that he didn't bang her, he's probably still in touch with her but he's gone underground so you'll have to plant VAR's and keyloggers to catch him...if the OP's wife was posting here about his EA, that's exactly what she would be told by this crowd.
> 
> Yet, 20+ says he doesn't even think it was really an EA, god is his witness...is he lying? He must be because that's what cheaters do, they lie...
> 
> Every situation is not the same and one size doesn't fit all. So maybe keep that in mind.


Almost every cheater tends to think their clueless, faithful spouse is a cheater. They are either projecting or lying to themselves to make themselves feel better.


----------



## aug

20PlusYears said:


> She says that she will take a polygraph to assuage my doubt regarding the sex, and that I can ask any question during so. Again, I believe her regarding the sex, so not sure that a poly is necessary at this point. *She said that I forgave her for cheating years ago regardless of the extent of the affair, which is technically true.* However, I told her that *if I had the information then that I have now, I would most likely have made a decision to terminate the marriage*. We had only been married for 2 years and had no kids together. Today is a different matter.


20 years ago you could only forgave what you knew. You did not know the full extent or details then. You know a little bit more now.




20PlusYears said:


> To answer the question of how I came to TAM, I came because I was being accused of having an EA with a colleague of mine a couple of years back. At this time I had no idea of that was.


Make sense since she knew she cheated and was evasive, she had/has the mindset of paranoia on cheating.



Interestingly, she able to drift away only 2 years into a new marriage. Guess the honeymoon stage of marriage was brief.

Note that I am not saying to divorce her -- it's too early to make that decision. Take time, months, to decide. Let your emotions, logic, and standards along with facts align themselves first.


----------



## norajane

MattMatt said:


> Almost every cheater tends to think their clueless, faithful spouse is a cheater. They are either projecting or lying to themselves to make themselves feel better.


Yes, one could say that about the OP, too, if one were so inclined...see how that works?


----------



## norajane

aug said:


> Make sense since she knew she cheated and was evasive, she had/has the mindset of paranoia on cheating.


Or it makes sense because he had an EA and felt guilty so now he's throwing his wife's actions 20 years ago back in her face to make himself feel better.

Amazing that everyone is completely skipping over the fact he told us he had an EA _a couple of years ago_, and that might have something to do with their current issues.

See how easy it is for people on TAM to blow things up out of all proportion? We really have no idea what's going on with these two.


----------



## Truthseeker1

norajane said:


> Or it makes sense because he had an EA and felt guilty so now he's throwing his wife's actions 20 years ago back in her face to make himself feel better.
> 
> Amazing that everyone is completely skipping over the fact he told us he had an EA _a couple of years ago_, and that might have something to do with their current issues.
> 
> See how easy it is for people on TAM to blow things up out of all proportion?


:iagree: Yeah there are TWO elephants sitting in this living room..must be getting pretty crowded in there....


----------



## aug

20PlusYears said:


> To answer the question of how I came to TAM, I came because I was being accused of having an EA with a colleague of mine a couple of years back. At this time I had no idea of that was.
> 
> I still feel that what I was doing wasn't an ea but this site helped me realize even though* I was completely open with my wife about my interaction with this woman even copying her on our email correspondence.* But because my wife wasn't confortable with us communicating I should respect that and end communication with this woman, which is what I did..sending a no contact letter cc'ing my wife. All of this I learned from the good people of this site.
> 
> I stayed on after this incident as I mentioned earlier to affair proof my marriage. There is a lot of good advice administered through this site and I wanted to take advantage of it. But as Nora stated, this site can also feed your insercurities and the whole kiss=sex is what really sent me down the rabbit hole.





norajane said:


> Or it makes sense because he had an EA and felt guilty so now he's throwing his wife's actions 20 years ago back in her face to make himself feel better.
> 
> Amazing that everyone is completely skipping over the fact he told us he had an EA _a couple of years ago_, and that might have something to do with their current issues.
> 
> See how easy it is for people on TAM to blow things up out of all proportion? We really have no idea what's going on with these two.



It's really, really hard to have an EA when your spouse is cc'ed on the email.

It's also difficult in my mind to equate sending emails to kissing and fondling.


----------



## MattMatt

norajane said:


> Yes, one could say that about the OP, too, if one were so inclined...see how that works?


*No. That doesn't work at all. Why? Because he already knew his wife was a cheater.*

Why did she tell him? Frightened someone else would? Guilt? Who knows?


----------



## BradWesley

MattMatt said:


> Thing is Brad, even if the wife did have sex with her lover, her husband and she can still reconcile and get through this.
> 
> But only with 100% honesty and transparency.
> 
> It's a gut feeling that there's more to come out.


Get through what? The OP appears to be satisfied the her answers to his questions.

I agree with the poster and hope the OP takes his advice to sign off TAM, take her out to dinner and move on with your lives.


----------



## MattMatt

norajane said:


> Or it makes sense because he had an EA and felt guilty so now he's throwing his wife's actions 20 years ago back in her face to make himself feel better.
> 
> Amazing that everyone is completely skipping over the fact he told us he had an EA _a couple of years ago_, and that might have something to do with their current issues.
> 
> See how easy it is for people on TAM to blow things up out of all proportion? We really have no idea what's going on with these two.


Pardon me, but he *never *said that. His wife thought he was having an EA. But he felt -and still feels- that it wasn't an EA. But in order to appease to his wife he decided to cease contact with the woman.


----------



## norajane

aug said:


> It's really, really hard to have an EA when your spouse is cc'ed on the email.
> 
> It's also difficult in my mind to equate sending emails to kissing and fondling.


Lol, all you have is his word that he cc'd his wife on emails. Did he have private chats? Did she check his cell phone? Did she put a VAR in his car to catch their phone conversations? She was a colleague, so they worked together, anything c ould happen anywhere anytime. Maybe he banged her but he's minimizing and trickle-truthing...

We don't really know. His wife should make him get a polygraph, right?


----------



## MattMatt

BradWesley said:


> Get through what? The OP appears to be satisfied the her answers to his questions.
> 
> I agree with the poster and hope the OP takes his advice to sign off TAM, take her out to dinner and move on with your lives.


Yeah! Cut off his support network! Hide! Move on! After all, it was so long ago, her affair. And yes, it was an affair. Granted there was perhaps no PIV sex, but there was carnal congress that might have fallen short of PIV sex. But it happened. And she chose to trickle truth her husband.

And, yes, her trickle truthing worked out for her for 20 years...


----------



## norajane

MattMatt said:


> Pardon me, but he *never *said that. His wife thought he was having an EA. But he felt -and still feels- that it wasn't an EA. But in order to appease to his wife he decided to cease contact with the woman.


Again: he said, she thinks, he thinks, she said...saying so obviously doesn't make it the truth. OR not the truth.


----------



## MattMatt

norajane said:


> Lol, all you have is his word that he cc'd his wife on emails. Did he have private chats? Did she check his cell phone? Did she put a VAR in his car to catch their phone conversations? She was a colleague, so they worked together, anything c ould happen anywhere anytime. Maybe he banged her but he's minimizing and trickle-truthing...
> 
> We don't really know. His wife should make him get a polygraph, right?


Good idea, Norajane! They *should* both take polygraph tests. 

Thank you for coming up with a workable, win-win solution. I agree with you.

Though I think that counselling should also be arranged, too.


----------



## aug

norajane said:


> Lol, all you have is his word that he cc'd his wife on emails. Did he have private chats? Did she check his cell phone? Did she put a VAR in his car to catch their phone conversations? She was a colleague, so they worked together, anything c ould happen anywhere anytime. Maybe he banged her but he's minimizing and trickle-truthing...
> 
> We don't really know. *His wife should make him get a polygraph,* right?



He said his wife is reading this thread. If that's what she needs...


----------



## BradWesley

MattMatt said:


> Yeah! Cut off his support network! Hide! Move on! After all, it was so long ago, her affair. And yes, it was an affair. Granted there was perhaps no PIV sex, but there was carnal congress that might have fallen short of PIV sex. But it happened. And she chose to trickle truth her husband.
> 
> And, yes, her trickle truthing worked out for her for 20 years...


Dude, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. He appears to be happy - let him be


----------



## OlderAndWiser

happyman64 said:


> Wise words O&W.
> 
> The key is you communicated with your wife and dealt with the issue at hand.
> 
> Did you ever consider throwing in the towel on your marriage?
> 
> That is the key with the OP.
> 
> Communicate with his spouse.....



I never got to the point where I considered D, only because I believe she was truthful when we first discussed, and truthful after I triggered.

My only point is that I don't believe the OP can do NOTHING at this point, regardless of how long ago the event occurred. It will always be in the back of his head, and that is no way to live, and is actually unfair to his W as well.


----------



## JCD

MattMatt said:


> Yeah! Cut off his support network! Hide! Move on! After all, it was so long ago, her affair. And yes, it was an affair. Granted there was perhaps no PIV sex, but there was carnal congress that might have fallen short of PIV sex. But it happened. And she chose to trickle truth her husband.
> 
> And, yes, her trickle truthing worked out for her for 20 years...


This is bad advice. Normally I agree with MattMatt, so this is disturbing.

BUT...here is the deal, as far as I see it. He asked, she gave him a version of the truth...and he didn't totally believe he got all the truth. He suspected (without verification) that she had sex with him.

Here is the important bit:

HE FORGAVE HER ANYWAY. He went on with life with her, knowing he didn't have it all. By doing this, he accepted that his suspicions might be valid...and he mostly made peace with that.

NOW he triggers because the fine people on TAM are filling his head with drunken Machivellian Orgies of the most degenerate kind...and he feels a fool for making peace without 100% proof.

Yes, this was a festering sore in his marriage...but it shouldn't be a deal breaker.

NOW it seems lanced. According to everything we know (sans mystical BS detectors) she made out with this guy. Not good. They can now discuss this a lot more and remove all the pus. There will be a scar, but that's better than the pustule.


----------



## life101

20PlusYears,
I am glad that you are going to schedule a poly. In your heart you know that it is your closure. You need it to completely trust your wife again. Your wife too needs it to be the best wife she can be. You have suffered long enough in this prison. No one deserves it. Those punishments are the worst which go on in silence, where only the guilty know that they are being punished.

I am glad that you came to this forum and asked for advice. I hope someone will also help you to form the polygraph questions, if you need help with that. Since your wife is reading this, I guess it has to be in private.

A note to the people saying that he should let it go and bitter BSs are projecting their anger on his wife. I am yet to come across a single post in this thread where anyone projected anything out of the ordinary. People gave their opinions based on their experiences. If someone said that it is highly unlikely that it was not at least a handjob, that's because that's what normal people do when in heat. It is never just a kiss. No one forced the OP to be here. He came here because he has been living in his own prison for 20 years. Doesn't he deserve to be free? How can you suggest, being clean to your own conscience, to let it go? He will never be completely happy as long as he has this nagging doubt. 

20PlusYears, I wish the best for you two. No matter what the outcome is, your marriage can be saved. But you will need MC, and definitely IC for you. Living with a 'fear' for 20 years is not easy and only a professional can help you to get over it.

Good luck.


----------



## MattMatt

JCD said:


> This is bad advice. Normally I agree with MattMatt, so this is disturbing.
> 
> BUT...here is the deal, as far as I see it. He asked, she gave him a version of the truth...and he didn't totally believe he got all the truth. He suspected (without verification) that she had sex with him.
> 
> Here is the important bit:
> 
> HE FORGAVE HER ANYWAY. He went on with life with her, knowing he didn't have it all. By doing this, he accepted that his suspicions might be valid...and he mostly made peace with that.
> 
> NOW he triggers because the fine people on TAM are filling his head with drunken Machivellian Orgies of the most degenerate kind...and he feels a fool for making peace without 100% proof.
> 
> Yes, this was a festering sore in his marriage...but it shouldn't be a deal breaker.
> 
> NOW it seems lanced. According to everything we know (sans mystical BS detectors) she made out with this guy. Not good. They can now discuss this a lot more and remove all the pus. There will be a scar, but that's better than the pustule.


I think they can still get through this. But only with honesty.


----------



## Acabado

JCD said:


> NOW he triggers because the fine people on TAM are filling his head with drunken Machivellian Orgies of the most degenerate kind...and he feels a fool for making peace without 100% proof.


Backwards, he triggered earlier, he's triggering since he was accused of a EA two years ago (see the joining date), he came here.
TAM didn't trigger him.


----------



## BradWesley

Acabado said:


> Backwards, he triggered earlier, he's triggering since he was accused of a EA two years ago (see the joining date), he came here.
> TAM didn't trigger him.


You completely missed the point


----------



## jnj express

You guys are missing the major problem here---it ain't with his wife---its with him

He sees his wife in a mad passionate clutch, lips locked, hot and heavy---that's what he can't deal with---best you give advice, on how to deal with his visions---cuz they well may haunt him till his dying day


----------



## MattMatt

BradWesley said:


> Dude, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. He appears to be happy - let him be


Brad, if he were happy, he wouldn't have searched for TAM, now would he?

I hope we can help him to get himself back on track with his wife. Who hopefully did something wrong, 20 years ago, but who never did a wrong thing again.


----------



## Anuvia

20PlusYears said:


> To answer the question of how I came to TAM, I came because I was being accused of having an EA with a colleague of mine a couple of years back. At this time I had no idea of that was.
> 
> I still feel that what I was doing wasn't an ea but this site helped me realize even though I was completely open with my wife about my interaction with this woman even copying her on our email correspondence. But because my wife wasn't confortable with us communicating I should respect that and end communication with this woman, which is what I did..sending a no contact letter cc'ing my wife. All of this I learned from the good people of this site.
> 
> I stayed on after this incident as I mentioned earlier to affair proof my marriage. There is a lot of good advice administered through this site and I wanted to take advantage of it. But as Nora stated, this site can also feed your insercurities and the whole kiss=sex is what really sent me down the rabbit hole.


Make sure you don't allow your wife to draw a false equivalency between her having sex with another man and this supposed "emotional affair".


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Wow!
A very interesting and intense thread. I normally like to lead my posts with a quote from another post, often one I think is especially good. But for this thread that's hopeless; too many very good ones!

Regarding this forum having many bitter betrayed; grinding their axes right and left; driving others headlong toward divorce etc.......
I don't see it that way at all. But OP for full disclosure I Have never cheated on my wife nor she on me. Not bitter here, but my verbose post earlier leaves no doubt on where I stand __ your wife still owes you a major effort toward healing the hurt she, and she alone caused. You should not ask this of her, you should insist on it.

Marriage counseling is a must asap. I think this could get you both to the finish line _ finally _ on this problem. But you WILL have to find a very good therapist, one that views infidelity as the devastating act that it is, putting it in a class much more serious than all the other things people do that undermine marriages.


----------



## JCD

Anuvia said:


> Make sure you don't allow your wife to draw a false equivalency between her having sex with another man and this supposed "emotional affair".


She didn't have sex, and he barely had an emotional affair




MattMatt said:


> Brad, if he were happy, he wouldn't have searched for TAM, now would he?
> 
> I hope we can help him to get himself back on track with his wife. Who hopefully did something wrong, 20 years ago, but who never did a wrong thing again.




He searched for TAM to find out what an EA is and stayed to strengthen his marriage (affair proof he called it)

Then he met the OH SO SURE fellows who are totally and unequivocally sure that an admitted kiss means having far raunchier sex with the OM then she ever offered the husband if not anal sex with multiple partners.

So, yes, this was a TAM caused condition...and should be a cautionary tale.

Do you recall that one fellow who was checking out his wife and everyone was discussing how she was with MULTIPLE men and some posters were STRONGLY suggesting she was making porn films with them?

Sometimes TAM is the enemy of marriage by assuming the absolute worst...and beyond.


----------



## 20PlusYears

jnj express said:


> You guys are missing the major problem here---it ain't with his wife---its with him
> 
> He sees his wife in a mad passionate clutch, lips locked, hot and heavy---that's what he can't deal with---best you give advice, on how to deal with his visions---cuz they well may haunt him till his dying day


Hi Guys, I know the smart thing to do is, what some of you have already suggested, which is to get off this site and move on, which is what I intend to do. However I have to admit that I have been back on this site, and some of the post have really struck a nerve, which this specific one has done.

I know I can get passed this, but this is my one issue. I believe I can block it from mind for the most part. But it will take time. I know that you're right that I need to get off this site. I know because I can be like yeah...it's been 20 good years I can move on...but then my ego says are you going to accept that your wife made out with another man during your supposed honeymoon phase.:rofl:

Also I think back to conversations we had when we we're first dating when I asked her would she cheat with me on her previous boyfriend and she said "NEVER". But then she goes and cheats on her husband within 2 years of marriage. It makes me ask myself, was I not worthy enough that she wouldn't cheat on me... I know that it really doesn't matter now, or at least it shouldn't.

I've had a few drinks today just trying to relax and have a little time to myself...although my sons are not of the same mind set. Oh well, it's nice to have them with me, which weighs on me as well. I know I'll get passed this and come out stronger on the other side.

Thanks guys! Have a great day.


----------



## BradWesley

MattMatt said:


> Brad, if he were happy, he wouldn't have searched for TAM, now would he?
> 
> I hope we can help him to get himself back on track with his wife. Who hopefully did something wrong, 20 years ago, but who never did a wrong thing again.


His last post indicated that he was happy and satisfied with the answers she provided to his questions. In fact, he was so pleased that he was not going to go through with the polygraph.

"I hope we can help him to get himself back on track with his wife"? Unless you're a professional, that could be considered laughable. It may be helpful to offer support to people, it's another thing to offer solutions to problems that we have little to no knowledge about.


----------



## Thor

20PlusYears said:


> Someone asked the question do I really want to know the answer and what would I do if I was to find out... Maybe I need to answer that question before I approach her. I don't want to ruin what has been a very good marriage for something that happend 20 years ago.


20PY, keep in mind who is giving you opinions here and what their history is. Most have been cheated on and they know enough about what happened to have some hard feelings and biases. Most here have seen the pattern play out many times in real life and on this forum.

You are in a position of not knowing for sure. The trail is cold and the crime was decades ago. It is not likely for you to stumble upon any hard evidence right now.

First off, I agree that she probably did a lot more than she admitted to. It is incredibly uncommon for a person to admit voluntarily to any level of misconduct in a marriage. There is only one way for you to know what really happened, and that is for her to tell you. Which is quite unlikely. If she denies anything more happened, it could be true or not. That's the rub isn't it?

What does your gut say about how she was behaving at the time and how she told you? Your gut is probably your biggest asset right now on this.

If you think she probably did do more, you have two options. One is to try to force more information from her, or just forget about it.

Why is this an issue for you now? Has something happened recently?

IC for you is probably a good idea so you can get some insight as to why this is an emotional problem for you. Your employer probably offers EAP, Employee Assistance Program, which is some free counseling for exactly this kind of crisis. EAP is totally confidential. Your employer will never know you've been or what was said.

I don't know the truth of what my wife has done over the past 30 years. There are some major smoking guns from about 2 or 3 years ago, and some weaker signs from long ago. I understand how the uncertainty is worse than the knowledge.

I would rather know the truth so I can live in the real world.

If you find out she had an extensive PA, would you leave her for specifically the PA? How about the long term lies? The sex may be forgivable especially in light of the many good years since then. But how about the lies for 20 years?

I think you should talk to an IC and get their opinion too. I think one approach to your wife is to simply inform her of this emotional distress and what it is about. But don't ask her to do anything, and don't accuse her of a PA or lying. Just inform her of your dilemma. Your first conversation(s) don't have to have any agenda of getting to resolution or forcing her to confess. Her reaction will be informative to you. Try to be a good observer in the conversation rather than get too emotional.


----------



## lordmayhem

20PlusYears said:


> Hi Guys, I know the smart thing to do is, what some of you have already suggested, which is to get off this site and move on, which is what I intend to do. However I have to admit that I have been back on this site, and some of the post have really struck a nerve, which this specific one has done.
> 
> I know I can get passed this, but this is my one issue. I believe I can block it from mind for the most part. But it will take time. I know that you're right that I need to get off this site. I know because I can be like yeah...it's been 20 good years I can move on...but then my ego says are you going to accept that your wife made out with another man during your supposed honeymoon phase.:rofl:


Good luck with the rugsweeping. This is what got you here in the first place. Hopefully it won't eat at you for the next 20 years. Ignorance is bliss. What you don't know won't hurt you.


----------



## ThePheonix

20PlusYears said:


> but then my ego says are you going to accept that your wife made out with another man during your supposed honeymoon phase.:rofl:
> 
> Also I think back to conversations we had when we we're first dating when I asked her would she cheat with me on her previous boyfriend and she said "NEVER". But then she goes and cheats on her husband within 2 years of marriage. It makes me ask myself, was I not worthy enough that she wouldn't cheat on me.
> Thanks guys! Have a great day.


You're driving yourself crazy my man. I assure you, if you were unworthy, not having what it takes, lower on her food chain, etc., she'd been playing around long after this one short and relatively minor indiscretion. Like my granddaddy would say, "You ain't gettin nowhere if you keep dwelling on something so much it takes you prisoner".


----------



## LongWalk

A lot of good posts here. The fact she blurted out something herself was the impulse of someone who had chosen her husband. He, who had had no idea that his status had been in question, learned that he was plan A. Ironically she was proud of her loyalty, forgetting that the would become an issue that refused to die. OP was hurt but accepted and half forgave. Over the past 20 years has the OP noticed her qualities as a spouse. Did she forgive him forgetting their wedding anniversary? Does she treat somd in-law whom she does not like with forebearance? Does she go the extra mile without being asked?

When they look at their children or talk about them does she then smile at him, certain that they share the same life together?

If he knows these things, then whatever dishonesty there was was not the pattern of life time.

He should let her know that his heart is full and whatever she may have done no longer matters.

Could turn ordinary sex into hysterical bonding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## life101

Alright, I have reported one person here, who I fear came here only with the intention to sabotage this board. I sometimes don't like posts by a few posters, like JCD or Mrs. Mathias. But at least they post coherently, presenting their side of the argument in a reasonable manner. But calling names and attacking others should be a strict no no.


----------



## MattMatt

BradWesley said:


> His last post indicated that he was happy and satisfied with the answers she provided to his questions. In fact, he was so pleased that he was not going to go through with the polygraph.
> 
> "I hope we can help him to get himself back on track with his wife"? Unless you're a professional, that could be considered laughable. It may be helpful to offer support to people, it's another thing to offer solutions to problems that we have little to no knowledge about.


Actually, I am a qualified counsellor, but I have never practised.

Now, about posters who seem laughable?


----------



## BradWesley

3putt said:


> No, what's pathetic is that you obviously have no reading comprehension skills whatsoever. The OP said this...
> 
> 
> 
> This is what is bothering him and would be bothering me as well. The continued lies and deception. If that kind of rugsweeping and cover up is okay with you if it had happened top you, then fine. But it's not about you, is it? It's about 20PY, and the truth and nothing but the truth will allow to fully heal.
> 
> It's really quite simple, if only you'd pull your head out of your ass long enough to see it.


Talk about pulling one's head out of their ass. He is content where he is at in his relationship, but you won't be content until you drag him down to where you are. Misery loves company huh?


----------



## workindad

Follow thru with the polygraph and put this issue to bed so that it doesn't rot your marriage for the next 20 years. That peace of mind is well worth the few hundred bucks the poly will set you back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BradWesley

MattMatt said:


> Actually, I am a qualified counsellor, but I have never practised.
> 
> Now, about posters who seem laughable?


That in itself is laughable


----------



## 3putt

BradWesley said:


> Talk about pulling one's head out of their ass. He is content where he is at in his relationship, but you won't be content until you drag him down to where you are. Misery loves company huh?


Dude, we're trying to help him get his answers so he doesn't have to spend the next 20 years of his life the same way he has spent the previous 20. Are you truly this ignorant??

My God!!!


----------



## MattMatt

BradWesley said:


> That in itself is laughable


You are being quite rude. However, I will forgive you. You might like to offer several apologies for your rudeness to several posters.

You are a betrayed spouse? Well, that's fine. But it doesn't make people a shoo in for a hagiographic biography.


----------



## RClawson

Sorry but I got to the third page of this and burn't out. I am likely on this site to much because it appears to me that most of the advice is pretty canned to me at this point. 

OP you have been hanging on to this for 20 years. My history is similar. I still have triggers and some come on like a freight train in this forum. Based on my own personal experience and reading what you have written I am quite sure more happened but I do not think that they "know" one another in the bilblical sense if you will.

If they were that intimate I think there would have been more signs when she moved back. Unless your wife is completely soulless I just do not believe most people can cut off and intimate relationship like that without leaving all kinds of "litter" scattered about.

After 27 years I there are still triggers for me. I do not imagine them it's just my wife is just sloppy with technology. If I confronted her it would not do any good unless my plan was to move on and after much self examination I do not want that. 

I strongly suggest individual counseling. I found mine by reading her blog and getting to know how she thought and how she helped people heal. She was perfect for me. She lives two thousand miles away and it was all done by Skype. We can give you plenty of advice here but remember we are a bit jaded at the end of the day


----------



## Jonesey

norajane said:


> *Lol, all you have is his word that he cc'd his wife on emails.* And what does op´and since
> TAM for some reason got dragged in to this. So his wife has video prof to back up her statement, other then her WORD??
> You know it is not so far fetched to believe that 2 people
> in like this case.Being in a romantic place as Hawaii alone.
> To form attraction ,and act on them. You know "no body need´s to know mindset(barf) Ad being young,alone and
> not so mature as we like to think in that age..Even after
> recently graduating from collage.. Sadly i have to agree
> with Matt..There is more coming  I mean one make out session(barfing again) fine.But have the ability to stop
> going further while you are in the middle of is not so likely
> i´m afraid.Especially if influenced of alcohol at some point..
> 
> But i hope it turns out not to be the case.
> Suspect that this scenario , in one way or the other is what some poster´s are referring to in this thread..
> The time length is what does it to me..To much
> connection between them.
> 
> 
> *Did he have private chats? Did she check his cell phone? Did she put a VAR in his car to catch their phone conversations?* We currently don´t know.She need´s to join in and let us now.Currently it is any one´s guess
> *She was a colleague, so they worked together, anything c ould happen anywhere anytime. Maybe he banged her but he's minimizing and trickle-truthing...*
> Oh boy i think i just read that some where.Suspicion about a wife i think..
> 
> We don't really know. *His wife should make him get a polygraph, right?*Absolutely if it is her wishes. Just right after she take´s her first. And before OP take´s his.She should give a very compelling reason
> to why it is a issue now.And not voicing any concern,then. But
> choses to do so NOW IMHO


----------



## JCD

life101 said:


> Alright, I have reported one person here, who I fear came here only with the intention to sabotage this board. I sometimes don't like posts by a few posters, like JCD or Mrs. Mathias. But at least they post coherently, presenting their side of the argument in a reasonable manner. But calling names and attacking others should be a strict no no.


Thank you, but I have my moments.

There was a tacit forgiveness offered despite the lack of facts.

But now there is some emotional distance AND he is triggering, I think they should discuss this in more detail.

It will be healing for both of them. She gets to relieve some guilt and he gets some closure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JCD

For what it's worth, I recall a training situation when I was young, one of God's Gift to Women set his sights on the only cute (married) women. He wouldn't let her alone...and she reciprocated...to a point. Two of his friends took her to task for 'breaking his heart' you know...because she flirted, had intimate conversations...but she didn't put out and cheat in her husband.

This class lasted a month.

So I can't say for sure OP's wife DIDN'T cheat...but it's possible. I've seen a similar situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

20PlusYears said:


> Also I think back to conversations we had when we we're first dating when I asked her would she cheat with me on her previous boyfriend and she said "NEVER". But then she goes and cheats on her husband within 2 years of marriage. It makes me ask myself, was I not worthy enough that she wouldn't cheat on me... I know that it really doesn't matter now, or at least it shouldn't.


Tell her this. Tell her everything you're feeling like this. You may want to do it during MC but she needs to know what you're thinking and why you're hurting.


----------



## JCD

Nucking Futs said:


> Tell her this. Tell her everything you're feeling like this. You may want to do it during MC but she needs to know what you're thinking and why you're hurting.


This is good advice. But it is also important to make her feel safe in revealing these things...which is difficult when you are offering a form of blanket amnesty. However it's been 20 years and is really necessary for your closure OP
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Summer4744

20plusyears.

Unfortunately I don't think you will be able to get past this and move on. Time won't heal this wound. 

I believe that there was no intercourse, this she is willing to defend easily. But when you press for details she clams up? Why is that? The answer is simpler than you think. If she fessed up completely damaging details would emerge, details that could cause you to leave her. Not to be too graphic, but besides intercourse there is also fingers, dirty talk, nudity, etc. Have you asked her if she orgasmed? Was there hand contact with the genitals?

So if alls they did was kiss and grope at each other for a little bit why wouldn't she just say this and put that affair behind you? She doesn't want to say more because she obviously went beyond whatever she is willing to admit.

Confessing to you is a nice gesture, but it could mean a lot of things. It could mean that she let things go a lot farther than she was planning to, and confessing to a minor crime and trying to forget the past was her way of alleviating the guilt she was feeling. 

Are you blowing things out of proportion? No. Think about what happened here. She cheated on you and was overcome by guilt, so she told you it was only kissing when you know it was more. For the next 20 years this has affected you and every now and then it cripples you thinking what was the worst case scenario. 

Think about what your wife took from you. You could have spent the last 20 years building a loving relationship either with your wife or with someone else who didn't lie to you. But instead your WW trickle truthed you, and this was the worst thing she could do. Since when someone doesn't want to fess up the truth, your mind automatically assumes the worst case scenario.

So try and brush this under the rug all you want, but by not dealing with it you are just pushing the problem down the road where the stakes will only grow higher. What if twenty years from now we hear from 40 year marriage guy who is still struggling with it?


----------



## Jonesey

JCD said:


> For what it's worth, I recall a training situation when I was young, one of God's Gift to Women set his sights on the only cute (married) women. He wouldn't let her alone...and she reciprocated...to a point. Two of his friends took her to task for 'breaking his heart' you know...because she flirted, had intimate conversations...but she didn't put out and cheat in her husband.
> 
> This class lasted a month.
> 
> So I can't say for sure OP's wife DIDN'T cheat...but it's possible. I've seen a similar situation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I Never knew you could write in Latin But i do see
your point here...

It´s not the bonking part as much,that is the problem here.
Short
I´s the continuous 20+ years disrespect of OP 
The state of limbo she got him to live for this long. And
his wife fully knowing it,and yet had the power to "put"OP out of
his misery.But chose to continue disrespecting OP,for 20+years fully aware he was in al least in some small in pain and not always .For what?? happy.And all this she keep´s insisting on 
doing.Why?? To safe her own ass.And still is saving her own a§§. It´s CRUEL .Hard to get over.And is also hard to not
wondering what she view must have had of OP. And still is 
in..Question is Why??

JCD a serious personal question!
Are you very competitive person?

The saddest in all this
Is that i honestly believe she knew he wouldn't´t
Deep down.And aloud her self to talk her self in to keep this
up for so long(No people she is not Aiatollah Kohmania)
Nut sure how you spell that name)

The irony is 
if she had realized this longtime before she would not have "cheated" her self out
one awesome marriage, something she still has chance to have...


----------



## Jonesey

JCD said:


> This is good advice. *But it is also important to make her feel safe** in revealing these things.*..which is difficult when you are offering a form of blanket amnesty. However it's been 20 years and is really necessary for your closure OP
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Normally i god advice,in some cases
But however cant see any thing here 
that support´s the need for "support"
After all. We havent said anything here
earth shattering to him.
He has always known. Suspect he just needed some one
else to confirm.And perhaps´s just "fool in LOVE in his wife"
hope that nothing happened.So he can find a way to put
those pesky dream´s buried where they belong


----------



## 3putt

Summer4744 said:


> 20plusyears.
> 
> Unfortunately I don't think you will be able to get past this and move on. Time won't heal this wound.
> 
> I believe that there was no intercourse, this she is willing to defend easily. But when you press for details she clams up? Why is that? The answer is simpler than you think. If she fessed up completely damaging details would emerge, details that could cause you to leave her. Not to be too graphic, but besides intercourse there is also fingers, dirty talk, nudity, etc. Have you asked her if she orgasmed? Was there hand contact with the genitals?
> 
> So if alls they did was kiss and grope at each other for a little bit why wouldn't she just say this and put that affair behind you? She doesn't want to say more because she obviously went beyond whatever she is willing to admit.
> 
> Confessing to you is a nice gesture, but it could mean a lot of things. It could mean that she let things go a lot farther than she was planning to, and confessing to a minor crime and trying to forget the past was her way of alleviating the guilt she was feeling.
> 
> Are you blowing things out of proportion? No. Think about what happened here. She cheated on you and was overcome by guilt, so she told you it was only kissing when you know it was more. For the next 20 years this has affected you and every now and then it cripples you thinking what was the worst case scenario.
> 
> Think about what your wife took from you. You could have spent the last 20 years building a loving relationship either with your wife or with someone else who didn't lie to you. But instead your WW trickle truthed you, and this was the worst thing she could do. Since when someone doesn't want to fess up the truth, your mind automatically assumes the worst case scenario.
> 
> So try and brush this under the rug all you want, but by not dealing with it you are just pushing the problem down the road where the stakes will only grow higher. What if twenty years from now we hear from 40 year marriage guy who is still struggling with it?


I could've written this, and it's the main reason I posted Joseph's Letter in the hopes he would paraphrase it in hopefully helping her to understand why he needed the entire truth. This has been the biggest obstacle so far. She just doesn't seem to understand that by not divulging the whole truth, she is not protecting him, but decimating them. One day...one month...one year at a time. It's reached it's boiling point, and now it's bubbling over.

I disagree with one thing you said though. I DO believe this can be salvaged. It will just take a full confession from his wife so that he can put this to bed (so to speak) forever. She's scared to tell the whole truth. I understand that. But what she needs to understand is that the male imagination is quite, well...imaginative. The truth is probably a whole lot less dramatic than what what we men are capable of manufacturing in our minds.

Considering how she has been otherwise since then, if he can convey to her the absolute need for the truth to put his overactive mind at rest, then I believe they have an awesome chance at a full recovery.

I would also bet the farm that SHE would feel 1000% better having this weight lifted off her shoulders as well. I can't imagine it's been easy carrying around this load of bricks for 2 decades.

Just my thoughts.


----------



## ThePheonix

This thread is a classic example of why I recommend that if you step out of bounds, whether it be kissing, heavy petting, or intercourse, keep your mouth shut, clean up your act, and don't be stupid enough to think, "hey, I'll just confess my sins, feel a hell of a lot better, and my honesty will make the world a better placer". If this chick would have just kept her mouth shut, 20+ wouldn't be going through this self doubt crap. She did what she did and should have just lived with it. 
You may get a lot off your chest and give your spouse the opportunity to forgive you or walk, but matter what or how much you tell, there will always be major doubt you've been totally forthcoming.


----------



## life101

ThePheonix said:


> This thread is a classic example of why I recommend that if you step out of bounds, whether it be kissing, heavy petting, or intercourse, keep your mouth shut, clean up your act, and don't be stupid enough to think, "hey, I'll just confess my sins, feel a hell of a lot better, and my honesty will make the world a better placer". If this chick would have just kept her mouth shut, 20+ wouldn't be going through this self doubt crap. She did what she did and should have just lived with it.
> You may get a lot off your chest and give your spouse the opportunity to forgive you or walk, but matter what or how much you tell, there will always be major doubt you've been totally forthcoming.


Humanity lived another day to die again.


----------



## 3putt

ThePheonix said:


> This thread is a classic example of why I recommend that if you step out of bounds, whether it be kissing, heavy petting, or intercourse, keep your mouth shut, clean up your act, and don't be stupid enough to think, "hey, I'll just confess my sins, feel a hell of a lot better, and my honesty will make the world a better placer". If this chick would have just kept her mouth shut, 20+ wouldn't be going through this self doubt crap. She did what she did and should have just lived with it.
> You may get a lot off your chest and give your spouse the opportunity to forgive you or walk, but matter what or how much you tell, there will always be major doubt you've been totally forthcoming.


So, you're saying you don't believe that radical honesty is critical to a happy and fulfilling marriage? Not to mention a clear conscience for both parties?

Sorry...oh no. Not buying it. Not one bit. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I strongly disagree.

As far as your last line is concerned, it's up to the BS to decide if he/she has all the info they need to work through this and on the path to recovery. Or even if they want to.

But it starts with the truth.


----------



## aug

ThePheonix said:


> This thread is a classic example of why I recommend that if you step out of bounds, whether it be kissing, heavy petting, or intercourse, keep your mouth shut, clean up your act, and don't be stupid enough to think, "hey, I'll just confess my sins, feel a hell of a lot better, and my honesty will make the world a better placer". If this chick would have just kept her mouth shut, 20+ wouldn't be going through this self doubt crap. She did what she did and should have just lived with it.
> You may get a lot off your chest and give your spouse the opportunity to forgive you or walk, but matter what or how much you tell, there will always be major doubt you've been totally forthcoming.


Well, I think she did tried to keep her mouth shut. And had been trying to for the last 20 years.

It just that the ex-lover(?)/OM was in her head (and still is), and with the unconscious slip about the OM would had taken her to the event, it slowly unraveled. 

And now she's making it worse by not being forthright.


----------



## MattMatt

JustPuzzled said:


> I'm just glad that someone finally used the word hagiographic.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought it was an opportunity I couldn't pass up!:smthumbup:


----------



## ThePheonix

aug said:


> It just that the ex-lover(?)/OM was in her head (and still is), and with the unconscious slip about the OM would had taken her to the event, it slowly unraveled.
> 
> And now she's making it worse by not being forthright.


This is what I mean by no matter what or how much you tell, there will always be major doubt you've been totally forthcoming.
No one responding to this thread has a shred of evidence that it went down any different than she claimed. All of it is speculation. But what the hell, we don't need evidence;burn the witch.


----------



## Dyokemm

Pheonix,

I do see your point my friend. But I have to disagree that dishonesty is EVER the best policy in life.

I think in the end, it always proves to be a poison or cancer in any relationship between human beings.

And like cancer, even when it is undetected, it is still eating away at the body of the relationship and will eventually impact intimacy and closeness in it.

I know I have a rather strict (maybe even rigid) view of honesty and openness in any relationship between people. But, I still don't see how deception can have any other impact than this.


----------



## ThePheonix

Dyokemm, I see where you're coming from and I understand the rational that honesty is the best policy. In this particular case, this woman may have been completely honest. There's no evidence to the contrary. Assuming she was honest and look at the results. Many on this site has encouraged 20+ to treat it like she's tramp. 20+ has spent years in hell wondering if there was more. The sad reality is that if she said, "yes, we slept together once", he'd wonder if it was twice and so on. He wants details and will always have doubts that he's getting all the details. I cannot see how her confession that she went too far, but short of intercourse, helped this situation. The truth hasn't set 20+ free. It has made him a prisoner. It hard to see that he wouldn't have had a better quality of life if she never said anything. He would have the same woman, who has been a good wife, four kids and a happy marriage, without being plagued by this.


----------



## aug

She needs to be transparent, honest and not hold back.

He needs to know that she is.

It too messy now for her to continue to hold back. He needs to sense that she is not holding back now. 

He has been with her for 25 years, he should know how to read her somewhat. When his gut sense she has told the whole truth, then they can both move forward.


----------



## LongWalk

aug said:


> He has been with her for 25 years, he should know how to read her somewhat. When his gut sense she has told the whole truth, then they can both move forward.


Indeed. If he doesn't know her by now, what is the point of saving the relationship? If she faked orgasms, which ones? Does she need to come clean about all of them?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

Pheonix,

I think in this case she was indeed minimizing the event and being deceptive towards her H.

But I think OP now thinks she may at last have reached the level of open honesty about what went down.

If he feels comfortable that he now has the facts he needed, then I think he is saying he feels he can now begin to heal and move on.

I'm happy he now feels he has some closure to this.


----------



## TRy

@norajane - First you discourage the OP from digging when you says comments such as:


norajane said:


> Except she's not going to tell him anything different than she's been telling him. She can't prove she didn't do anything more than what she's said, and he can't prove she did. So I don't see what pursuing this further is going to do except keep him mired in this line of thinking.





norajane said:


> Like I said, TAM is feeding into your insecurities and making you feel worse. Enjoy.


 and


norajane said:


> He might already HAVE the truth. She didn't keep the guy a secret - she told him about it. He isn't going to get more "truth" out of her if she's already told him the truth.


Then after the OP proves you wrong when he ignores your advice and listens to most everyone else on this board, and states:


20PlusYears said:


> I didn't want to press further with the details as she essentially confirmed that the sessions included heavy making out. Honesty I feel so stupid for never thinking to ask that question. Unfortunately, this forum wasn't available for me 20 years ago.


Do you admit that you were wrong? Nope. You instead go after the OP and state:


norajane said:


> Lol, all you have is his word that he cc'd his wife on emails. Did he have private chats? Did she check his cell phone? Did she put a VAR in his car to catch their phone conversations? She was a colleague, so they worked together, anything c ould happen anywhere anytime. Maybe he banged her but he's minimizing and trickle-truthing...
> 
> We don't really know. His wife should make him get a polygraph, right?


I do not know why you cannot admit that you were wrong, or what you have against the OP listening to TAM and learning the truth, but the OP was well served not following your advice and instead following the advice of most others here at TAM.


----------



## theroad

JCD said:


> Here is the deal:
> 
> I try and look at things from all perspectives.
> 
> So, at 20 y.o. you accidentally hit a neighbor's car. You go to them, you apologize, you pay for the car, heck, you even wash and wax it a few times.
> 
> Three cars later, the neighbor STILL yells at you about the car.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He admitted that he hit the car.

That is not the same as not answering the Questions as to how, what when where who why their was an accident.

Owning up to an accident and paying money to fix the car is no were even close to having and affair and refusing to tell your BH the five W's and How.


----------



## theroad

JCD said:


> Here is the deal:
> 
> Three cars later, the neighbor STILL yells at you about the car.
> 
> Sir, how many details do you need? The number of kisses? Tongue vs no tongue? Whether his lips touched her bosom? If she did oral, are you going to feel comfortable kissing her again despite the GALLONS of mouthwash and dentist visits she's had?
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Three years, thirty years a BS can and will trigger about the affair. Only difference is by the thirtieth year the triggers will be few and far apart.

Some BH never have found out about the WW having an affair until the WW confessed. They asked is the affair over and are you going to leave me. With yes and a no response from their WW they never mentioned the affair again.

This response had those WW going crazy and worrying because their BH refused to talk about the PA. They think that all BH will ask questions.

Most BH do ask. Many need to know every last detail. Thing is only the BH can decide how much detail the need. There is no normal response to learning about the affair except a normal range. From WW ended the affair and is staying with me to knowing everything.

It is only the BH to know what he wants to know.

I will close with that once an answer is heard it can not be unheard.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

20PlusYears said:


> Hi Guys, I know the smart thing to do is, what some of you have already suggested, which is to get off this site and move on, which is what I intend to do. However I have to admit that I have been back on this site, and some of the post have really struck a nerve, which this specific one has done.
> 
> I know I can get passed this, but this is my one issue. I believe I can block it from mind for the most part. But it will take time. I know that you're right that I need to get off this site. I know because I can be like yeah...it's been 20 good years I can move on...but then my ego says are you going to accept that your wife made out with another man during your supposed honeymoon phase.:rofl:
> 
> Also I think back to conversations we had when we we're first dating when I asked her would she cheat with me on her previous boyfriend and she said "NEVER". But then she goes and cheats on her husband within 2 years of marriage. It makes me ask myself, was I not worthy enough that she wouldn't cheat on me... I know that it really doesn't matter now, or at least it shouldn't.
> 
> I've had a few drinks today just trying to relax and have a little time to myself...although my sons are not of the same mind set. Oh well, it's nice to have them with me, which weighs on me as well. I know I'll get passed this and come out stronger on the other side.
> 
> Thanks guys! Have a great day.


20plus,
Am assuming the real reason you're leaving this board is that your wife has asked you to. Please stand up for yourself. If you'd done that 20 years ago this issue would have been put we'll behind you. Stop talking about your ego and your pride as if those created this problem, rather than your wife's character! 

She agreed to take a polygraph so you should schedule that. One question on it should be whether she had has had sexual contact with anyone ELSE during your marriage, other than you and the OM. I.e. not sure why you're so confident she did not cheat again, having already crossed the line once. And you should be willing to answer any question she has about your relationship with your colleague.
Good luck 20plus. Put this thing to bed once and for all.


----------



## barbados

nuclearnightmare said:


> 20plus,
> Am assuming the real reason you're leaving this board is that your wife has asked you to. Please stand up for yourself. If you'd done that 20 years ago this issue would have been put we'll behind you. Stop talking about your ego and your pride as if those created this problem, rather than your wife's character!
> 
> She agreed to take a polygraph so you should schedule that. *One question on it should be whether she had has had sexual contact with anyone ELSE during your marriage, other than you and the OM. * I.e. not sure why you're so confident she did not cheat again, having already crossed the line once. And you should be willing to answer any question she has about your relationship with your colleague.
> Good luck 20plus. Put this thing to bed once and for all.


:iagree:

The more I have read 20plus's posts, I just keep getting the feeling that he is not only afraid of getting the whole truth about the 20 year ago cheating, but also any possible cheating that may have occurred since.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

nuclearnightmare said:


> 20plus,
> Am assuming the real reason you're leaving this board is that your wife has asked you to. Please stand up for yourself. If you'd done that 20 years ago this issue would have been put we'll behind you. Stop talking about your ego and your pride as if those created this problem, rather than your wife's character!
> 
> She agreed to take a polygraph so you should schedule that. One question on it should be whether she had has had sexual contact with anyone ELSE during your marriage, other than you and the OM. I.e. not sure why you're so confident she did not cheat again, having already crossed the line once. And you should be willing to answer any question she has about your relationship with your colleague.
> Good luck 20plus. Put this thing to bed once and for all.


I agree. It's a tough pill to swallow, realizing that the one person that was suppose to true to him not only could have, but very well may have, cheated on him. And possibly more than once...

A new reality that he never had once thought was possible is now a distinct possibility. I think just about everyone is in some form, or degree of, denial when this first hits them. I know I was.

The question is, how long it takes to act on it?.. Once you except the change and the fact that there's no going back to "what once was". How do you respond...


----------



## lifeistooshort

I'm a little troubled that the OP needed this forum to tell him that communication with someone of the opposite sex that made his wife uncomfortable is unacceptable. It suggests boundary issues and does make me wonder of he's partly using her cheating 20 years ago as a means to dodge his issue. Though fwiw I think his wife has not been honest about what happened. Makes me wonder if the marriage has really been that great.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm a little troubled that the OP needed this forum to tell him that communication with someone of the opposite sex that made his wife uncomfortable is unacceptable. It suggests boundary issues and does make me wonder of he's partly using her cheating 20 years ago as a means to dodge his issue. Though fwiw I think his wife has not been honest about what happened. Makes me wonder if the marriage has really been that great.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It wasn't an ea. He cc'd his wife on all the email and cut contact when she asked him to. She was seeing something that wasn't there, and in my opinion was projecting.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Nucking Futs said:


> It wasn't an ea. He cc'd his wife on all the email and cut contact when she asked him to. She was seeing something that wasn't there, and in my opinion was projecting.



Maybe. It would be helpful if we knew the tone of these emails. But again I wonder why she would even be projecting after 20 years of a great marriage? Is he sure there hasn't been anything more recent?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThePheonix

Maybe its like many was accusing his wife of doing; trickle truth. Maybe the OW was more than friendly chats. You know what they say about kissing = sexual intercourse. Perhaps that "communication with the opposite sex = EA or worse. What good for the goose is good for the gander. Am I wrong.


----------



## 3putt

Nucking Futs said:


> It wasn't an ea. He cc'd his wife on all the email and cut contact when she asked him to. She was seeing something that wasn't there, and in my opinion was projecting.


Or trying to find anything she could grasp onto that would assuage her guilt just a little for what she did 20 years ago.

I'm still betting this has been weighing on her all this time, and now that it's reared it's ugly head once again, it's getting even heavier. That noose is tightening.

Who is it that has that Buddha quote in their sig? There are three things you can't hide forever; the sun, the moon, and the truth.


----------



## Wazza

Kallan Pavithran said:


> TAM didn't send him an invitation letter to join this site, he searched for it, he came here for help. No one come to this sites if everything is fine in their marriage.
> 
> Regarding his insecurities I didn't see any insecurity in his posts. Then making him feel worse TAM didn't make him feel worse, it is his wife's cheating which made him feel worse for the past 20yrs.
> 
> He tried your advice to believe her (even though he didn't) and move on for 20yrs but he couldn't, so he should do all the things which can relieve him from his misery and if the OPs wife is truly remorseful and truthful she will gladly accept his request as this will relieve her also.
> 
> If she had sex, Does it means he should Divorce her? No, if he can get past it with MC and IC then they should really try hard for salvaging his marriage.


Reading the thread before commenting, but I actually work on my marriage, and found TAM while compiling a list of romantic things to do with wife. 

The fact that we had previously dealt with an infidelity is incidental. Would have found the site regardless.

Not jut focussing on your post here...a few have made this point.


----------



## Wazza

MattMatt said:


> Good idea, Norajane! They *should* both take polygraph tests.
> 
> Thank you for coming up with a workable, win-win solution. I agree with you.
> 
> Though I think that counselling should also be arranged, too.


Both take and rely on tests that are so unreliable??


----------



## 3putt

Wazza said:


> Both take and rely on tests that are so unreliable??


It's not necessarily the accuracy of the test that's important. It's the enthusiastic willingness to take the test that is.

Or, more importantly, the resistance to take it. The mere threat of a poly has generated more parking lot confessions than I care to even count.


----------



## Wazza

20+, if your wife is generally a liar, I think you will know.

If she dodged the question of extra details until asked directly, then confessed, I would tend to believe her. She simply omitted awkward facts until pressed. You ever done that? I know I have.

But I don't know how you get 100% certainty. My gut feel based on what you write is that what you have is pretty good.


----------



## Wazza

3putt said:


> It's not necessarily the accuracy of the test that's important. It's the enthusiastic willingness to take the test that is.
> 
> Or, more importantly, the resistance to take it. The mere threat of a poly has generated more parking lot confessions than I care to even count.


I see the strategic wisdom of the parking lot confession. Not sure if it applies in this case. As I read it she cracked when asked the right question. There is a sense of integrity there to me.

Some people on TAM have had truly awful experiences. Some of us less awful. The danger is you can never prove that nothing worse happened..you just have to back your judgement.

You can ruin a marriage by worrying too much.

OP, take time to think. Talk about it more with her. I suspect you will find certainty within yourself because you know her basic character.


----------



## 3putt

Wazza said:


> I see the strategic wisdom of the parking lot confession. *Not sure if it applies in this case. As I read it she cracked when asked the right question. There is a sense of integrity there to me.*
> 
> Some people on TAM have had truly awful experiences. Some of us less awful. The danger is you can never prove that nothing worse happened..you just have to back your judgement.
> 
> You can ruin a marriage by worrying too much.
> 
> OP, take time to think. Talk about it more with her. I suspect you will find certainty within yourself because you know her basic character.


I would love to think you're right about the part I bolded, but I still think there's way more to it. The nut's been cracked a little, but the meat is still in there.

Believe me, I would love nothing more than to be wrong. I just don't think I am.


----------



## ThePheonix

After ya'll question the wife, I would like to have 20+ and his colleague/GF on the witness stand. I'd bet there's a lot more than he's letting on. That move he made of cc'ing his wife with a phony no contact letter was nifty trick that led his old lady into a blind alley.


----------



## 3putt

ThePheonix said:


> After ya'll question the wife, I would like to have 20+ and his colleague/GF on the witness stand. I'd bet there's a lot more than he's letting on. That move he made of cc'ing his wife with a phony no contact letter was nifty trick that led his old lady into a blind alley.


Heavy sigh......


----------



## Nucking Futs

ThePheonix said:


> After ya'll question the wife, I would like to have 20+ and his colleague/GF on the witness stand. I'd bet there's a lot more than he's letting on. That move he made of cc'ing his wife with a phony no contact letter was nifty trick that led his old lady into a blind alley.





20PlusYears said:


> To answer the question of how I came to TAM, I came because I was being accused of having an EA with a colleague of mine a couple of years back. At this time I had no idea of that was.
> 
> I still feel that what I was doing wasn't an ea but this site helped me realize even though *I was completely open with my wife about my interaction with this woman even copying her on our email correspondence. But because my wife wasn't confortable with us communicating I should respect that and end communication with this woman, which is what I did..sending a no contact letter cc'ing my wife.* All of this I learned from the good people of this site.
> 
> I stayed on after this incident as I mentioned earlier to affair proof my marriage. There is a lot of good advice administered through this site and I wanted to take advantage of it. But as Nora stated, this site can also feed your insercurities and the whole kiss=sex is what really sent me down the rabbit hole.


He cc'd his wife on all the emails, not just the nc email.


----------



## MattMatt

ThePheonix said:


> After ya'll question the wife, I would like to have 20+ and his colleague/GF on the witness stand. I'd bet there's a lot more than he's letting on. That move he made of cc'ing his wife with a phony no contact letter was nifty trick that led his old lady into a blind alley.


Nope. That's not what happened.


----------



## Wazza

3putt said:


> I would love to think you're right about the part I bolded, but I still think there's way more to it. The nut's been cracked a little, but the meat is still in there.
> 
> Believe me, I would love nothing more than to be wrong. I just don't think I am.


Gut feel or evidence?


----------



## ThePheonix

Nucking Futs said:


> He cc'd his wife on all the emails, not just the nc email.


That what he says. His wife says she stopped the action before sleeping with the guy, and a lot of folks ain't cutting her any slack. If she's hiding something, why isn't it just as likely that he is. 
We found out about the emails to the colleague well into the thread (shortly after he discovered his wife was pursuing his thread) . Whatever was in the emails was strong enough to make his wife uncomfortable with the exchanges. I'd like to hear her side of the story. My gut tell me there may be more to this than is being revealed by 20+. He may not be as clean as he'd have us believe.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Wazza said:


> Gut feel or evidence?


I received apm from 20+ and he asked me to share some info with you all...

*"I truly do believe all that she has said. I pushed a little more last night...I could truly see the shame in her face bringing her to tears. She answered all of my questions, even the really difficult ones.

I told her that I didn't want to hurt her with having her relive that time in her life. She asked me to get a piece of paper and write down all of my questions that I needed answers to and she would do her best to answer them all with truth and honesty even the most hurtful ones.

I have to tell you I felt like a total D**K after this talk. I can say to you today that I feel very confident in what happen and no longer have a need for any additional questions. So she will not be getting a list from me"*

He is staying away from this message board for awhile....and taking his wife out to dinner....


----------



## EleGirl

if you get a polly done.. just remember that they are wrong about 25% of the time. So you will never know if the answer you got from them is accurate. Is this really what you want to put your faith in?


----------



## EleGirl

Truthseeker1 said:


> He is staying away from this message board for awhile....and taking his wife out to dinner....


This sounds like a wise idea.

She has been a good wife for 20 years. I think that should account for a lot.


----------



## ThePheonix

Truthseeker1 said:


> He is staying away from this message board for awhile....and taking his wife out to dinner....


One of the smartest things he can do at this point. The last he needs is more fuel on the fire. As said in Colossians 3:13, "you must allowances for each others faults and forgive the person who offends you. Remember, the Lord forgave you, so you must forgive others". I say if this Biblical quote offends you, sue me.
At any rate, I am resting my defense of this woman. Sounds like court is adjourned.


----------



## Rookie4

ThePheonix said:


> After ya'll question the wife, I would like to have 20+ and his colleague/GF on the witness stand. I'd bet there's a lot more than he's letting on. That move he made of cc'ing his wife with a phony no contact letter was nifty trick that led his old lady into a blind alley.


Dude, you need to lighten up. You aren't a lawyer and this isn't a courtroom. We try to help people here, not accuse them .


----------



## EleGirl

Rookie4 said:


> Dude, you need to lighten up. You aren't a lawyer and this isn't a courtroom. We try to help people here, not accuse them .


I think that's the point of his post... if you look at this thread, it's pages and pages of people taking one side of the story and wanting to hang her out to dry.

Helping people includes helping them take responsibility for their own actions. His wife thinks he's having an EA and so he comes here and starts to drum up stuff about something she did can confessed to him 20 years ago. IT's a great way to cover up a current EA. But most just glossed over that one.


----------



## Wazza

20+, people are not perfect. We make mistakes. 

If your wife has been a good wife for 20 years, if she has been honest about her mistakes, and if you find her attractive, then there are a lot of people in this world who would kill for what you have.

Treasure it, and love her. Don't look for problems where none exist. Don't let the past destroy the future.


----------



## tom67

Wazza said:


> 20+, people are not perfect. We make mistakes.
> 
> If your wife has been a good wife for 20 years, if she has been honest about her mistakes, and if you find her attractive, then there are a lot of people in this world who would kill for what you have.
> 
> Treasure it, and love her. Don't look for problems where none exist. Don't let the past destroy the future.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## JCD

Rookie4 said:


> Dude, you need to lighten up. You aren't a lawyer and this isn't a courtroom. We try to help people here, not accuse them .


Unless it's a Wayward. Then we are all Clarence Darrow


----------



## barbados

Truthseeker1 said:


> I received apm from 20+ and he asked me to share some info with you all...
> 
> 
> 
> I told her that I didn't want to hurt her with having her relive that time in her life. She asked me to get a piece of paper and write down all of my questions that I needed answers to and she would do her best to answer them all with truth and honesty even the most hurtful ones.
> 
> So she will not be getting a list from me"[/I][/B]
> 
> He is staying away from this message board for awhile....and taking his wife out to dinner....



That should have been done 20 years ago, but wasn't. She got off basically with no consequences, while he is still suffering with it 20 years later. So now he's gonna rug sweep AGAIN, not get the closure HE needs and DESERVES, and even is gonna take her out to dinner !

She does a little water works and he caves. This isn't going away for him any time soon.

He's not giving her the list of Q's because he is afraid of the answers he may get,


----------



## Wazza

barbados said:


> That should have been done 20 years ago, but wasn't. She got off basically with no consequences, while he is still suffering with it 20 years later. So now he's gonna rug sweep AGAIN, not get the closure HE needs and DESERVES, and even is gonna take her out to dinner !
> 
> She does a little water works and he caves. This isn't going away for him any time soon.
> 
> He's not giving her the list of Q's because he is afraid of the answers he may get,


Barbados, two things I have experienced, and learned on TAM that my experience is not unique.

1. Cheaters deceive. (Lie, omit facts, whatever)
2. Some cheaters (not all) feel incredibly guilty at what they have done, and struggle with the guilt and pain.

Both of those played out in my wife's affair. We reconciled and are happily married, but if I kept considering worst case scenarios which I can't prove, we would be divorced now I think.

If 20+ is satisfied, then I would be satisfied. He is the one who must live with things.


----------



## theroad

barbados said:


> That should have been done 20 years ago, but wasn't. She got off basically with no consequences, while he is still suffering with it 20 years later. So now he's gonna rug sweep AGAIN, not get the closure HE needs and DESERVES, and even is gonna take her out to dinner !
> 
> She does a little water works and he caves. This isn't going away for him any time soon.
> 
> He's not giving her the list of Q's because he is afraid of the answers he may get,


This WW needs to be polygraphed.

The rug sweeping and the buck has to stop here and now.

There are countless BH's that 30+ years ago are still in turmoil because the never got the truth.

Because a WW has been a good wife does not give her a pass on having to tell the truth. Two separate issues.

The second guessing by this BH will never end without the truth. Better to have peace now while living then to rest in peace in one's grave.


----------



## 3putt

Wazza said:


> Gut feel or evidence?


Just a gut feeling based on a lot of unpleasant experiences.


----------



## LongWalk

Truthseeker1 said:


> I received apm from 20+ and he asked me to share some info with you all...
> 
> *"I truly do believe all that she has said. I pushed a little more last night...I could truly see the shame in her face bringing her to tears. She answered all of my questions, even the really difficult ones.
> 
> I told her that I didn't want to hurt her with having her relive that time in her life. She asked me to get a piece of paper and write down all of my questions that I needed answers to and she would do her best to answer them all with truth and honesty even the most hurtful ones.
> 
> I have to tell you I felt like a total D**K after this talk. I can say to you today that I feel very confident in what happen and no longer have a need for any additional questions. So she will not be getting a list from me"*
> 
> He is staying away from this message board for awhile....and taking his wife out to dinner....


Whatever happened 20 years ago was more than kiss. Both the husband and wife have known this. What exactly has made them uncomfortable. But he accepted her back then and more than one child passed through through her vagina. The children were his.

He has through the years rejected her in bed to punish her.

At some point, he must let go. Are they going to let this cloud hang over them for the rest of their time together?


----------



## Thor

The power of infidelity. It kills trust even when the BS believes he has been told the truth. This issue will rear its ugly head again if it gets rugswept again. 

The process of R is needed in order to R. He needs to give her the list and she needs to write out the answers. Her pain is the cost of her stupid decision all those years ago. Even if it was only one kiss, the betrayal has caused all this pain for the BS.

They need good MC at this point.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

"I truly do believe all that she has said. I pushed a little more last night...*I could truly see the shame in her face bringing her to tears.* She answered all of my questions, even the really difficult ones.

I told her that I didn't want to hurt her with having her relive that time in her life. She asked me to get a piece of paper and write down all of my questions that I needed answers to and *she would do her best to answer them all with truth and honesty* even the most hurtful ones."



She was brought to tears... So, much more than kissing went on...

She did her BEST to answer the questions with truth and honesty... If more than kissing happened, then there was petting, to oral, to full on sex. You don't forget any of this, even after twenty years.

I wouldn't except her "best" answers. I would want to know 100% truthful answers.

But hey, I guess it boils down to what you can live with.

I, myself, would have to know the truth.


----------



## ThePheonix

Rookie4 said:


> Dude, you need to lighten up. You aren't a lawyer and this isn't a courtroom. We try to help people here, not accuse them .


They let me practice in tax court, serve as an administrative judge, and teach commercial and tax law after I passed my GED.  
But from this point, since they both settled this amicably, I am speaking hypothetically.
You're right, it's not a courtroom. It more resembles a Grand Jury with the BS as the only jury member and a litany of prosecutors making oral arguments claiming the WS's crime is much greater than she admitted. 
I am merely proffering the possibility that the BS may have a couple of skeletons in the closet because of later admission of a female "colleague" and withholding sex (indicative of a lack of interest). 
Why am I off base?


----------



## ThePheonix

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> I, myself, would have to know the truth.


And when would that happen? Tears mean nothing. Some women cry if their makeup gets smeared. How would you ever know if you got the truth?
As for me, I hope I have the discipline to quit beating this horse and shut up.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

EleGirl said:


> if you get a polly done.. just remember that they are wrong about 25% of the time. So you will never know if the answer you got from them is accurate. Is this really what you want to put your faith in?


I need to read some of the counter-argument articles, but I really think a well administered polygraph has a failure rate in the single digits, vice 25%. "well adminstered" is key though. there are a number of mistakes an inexperienced examiner can make. In U.S. courts polygraph results are in vast majority of cases inadmissible (actually have never heard of a case in which they were). I think that is a good thing. But police departments all over the U.S. use the polygraph in criminal investigations. they use it as a tool to gain more insight into which suspects should remain their significant focus, which should be eliminated, which should get more attention etc.
so they _take the results in combination _with everything else they know or believe about an individual.

that's how a BS should consider polygraph results. They afterall are doing their own, personal investigation. In the case where not much real evidence exists, or where the WS has plausible deniability, I think polygraph results could be quite helpful.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

ThePheonix said:


> They let me practice in tax court, serve as an administrative judge, and teach commercial and tax law after I passed my GED.
> But from this point, since they both settled this amicably, I am speaking hypothetically.
> You're right, it's not a courtroom. It more resembles a Grand Jury with the BS as the only jury member and a litany of prosecutors making oral arguments claiming the WS's crime is much greater than she admitted.
> I am merely proffering the possibility that the BS may have a couple of skeletons in the closet because of later admission of a female "colleague" and withholding sex (indicative of a lack of interest).
> Why am I off base?


you're not offbase. we don't really know him, and we especially don't know her. both have reason to question the other's fidelity, to see how far things went in both cases. It seems though that if one of them would rather drop all of this, my sense is it would be her.


Based on the words the OP chooses to describe his situation, the power dynamic in the relationship is in her favor, and has been for quite some time if not for their entire history. i.e. he believes she would find it easier to leave him than he would to leave her. he needs her more than she needs him.....that's his view. that's why he seems to tiptoe around the details of her physical affair, having trouble really challenging her now, and even shortly after it came to light 20 years ago. 

But's he's been able to practice a little passive aggression all along, which probably manifested itself to some extent in some boundary crossing - or worse - with the woman from work. and especaially in OP interactions with his wife about this relationship with the coworker. kinda sounds like his wife asked him "hey what the hell??" on the coworker, and as he addressed the issue with her at some point said "speaking of crossing boundaries, I still have some questions with nio answers about the guy in Hawaii........" bringing them to where they are now.

sometimes I think pasive aggression is better than no aggression at all, though here's a case where it actually compounds the problem


----------



## badbane

20PlusYears said:


> Hi Guys, I know the smart thing to do is, what some of you have already suggested, which is to get off this site and move on, which is what I intend to do. However I have to admit that I have been back on this site, and some of the post have really struck a nerve, which this specific one has done.
> 
> I know I can get passed this, but this is my one issue. I believe I can block it from mind for the most part. But it will take time. I know that you're right that I need to get off this site. I know because I can be like yeah...it's been 20 good years I can move on...but then my ego says are you going to accept that your wife made out with another man during your supposed honeymoon phase.:rofl:
> 
> Also I think back to conversations we had when we we're first dating when I asked her would she cheat with me on her previous boyfriend and she said "NEVER". But then she goes and cheats on her husband within 2 years of marriage. It makes me ask myself, was I not worthy enough that she wouldn't cheat on me... I know that it really doesn't matter now, or at least it shouldn't.
> 
> I've had a few drinks today just trying to relax and have a little time to myself...although my sons are not of the same mind set. Oh well, it's nice to have them with me, which weighs on me as well. I know I'll get passed this and come out stronger on the other side.
> 
> Thanks guys! Have a great day.


jeez 20 years ago it was a lot easier to have an affair. REally now we are so connected that having an affair is much more difficult than it used to be. One errant FB post, one errant phone call and the LS is in on the jig. I would say maybe his gut is tweaking because there is something going on now. Maybe he just doesn't know what it is. I would not ignore this feeling because some people just don't deal with things. Do I think that he should ask her what the truth is.... Yes simply because after 20 years he deserves the truth. While it would hurt the marriage at least it isn't something the wife will have to hold on to and cause problems in the marriage. Having infidelity new or old in a relationship is toxic. It's like burying a nuclear an armed and primed nuclear missile and hoping it doesn't blow up. Who knows when the guilt might kick in and she comes clean. after 20 years of loyalty I think he could forgive and move past. But now he is still possibly sitting on that bombshell. One that he is not prepared for.


----------



## Wazza

There is a lot written here about the need to knows the truth, and I get why that is important. But how?

If you accept that polygraphs are unreliable, at what point do you conclude you have the truth? At what point do you conclude she is no longer lying.

Ok, so maybe you end the marriage. Some would. How do you know the next person you dare is being truthful.

Ultimately, you have to have an element of trust to have relationships. It is up to OP when to extend that.


----------



## JCD

Wazza said:


> There is a lot written here about the need to knows the truth, and I get why that is important. But how?
> 
> If you accept that polygraphs are unreliable, at what point do you conclude you have the truth? At what point do you conclude she is no longer lying.
> 
> Ok, so maybe you end the marriage. Some would. How do you know the next person you dare is being truthful.
> 
> Ultimately, you have to have an element of trust to have relationships. It is up to OP when to extend that.


And he has already chosen this, so everyone saying he's a rug sweeping pansy is being counter productive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## workindad

OP, 
Just curious as to your wife's thought process that lead her to believe you had an EA. Are you sure it wasn't an EA? If you are sure, why did she think it was?


----------



## theroad

LongWalk said:


> Whatever happened 20 years ago was more than kiss. Both the husband and wife have known this. What exactly has made them uncomfortable. But he accepted her back then and more than one child passed through through her vagina. The children were his.
> 
> He has through the years rejected her in bed to punish her.
> 
> At some point, he must let go. Are they going to let this cloud hang over them for the rest of their time together?


For recovery the past must be let go.

However most BH can not let go of the past when the WW will not give the answers to what happened.

So the BH is left to seek possible answers and guess as to what went down. Guessing is never knowing. So the BH gets stalled in recovery. Never completing recovery because not knowing what happened haunts all the time.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

theroad said:


> For recovery the past must be let go.
> 
> However most BH can not let go of the past when the WW will not give the answers to what happened.
> 
> So the BH is left to seek possible answers and guess as to what went down. Guessing is never knowing. So the BH gets stalled in recovery. Never completing recovery because not knowing what happened haunts all the time.


EXACTLY!

I feel that the OP stuck his head in the sand 20 years ago about this and is now paying the price for it.

The last thing you would think he would want to do now is... Stick his head in the sand...


----------



## Shaggy

Btw was the OM married? Has she chosen to protect him all these years?


----------



## Wazza

theroad said:


> For recovery the past must be let go.
> 
> However most BH can not let go of the past when the WW will not give the answers to what happened.
> 
> So the BH is left to seek possible answers and guess as to what went down. Guessing is never knowing. So the BH gets stalled in recovery. Never completing recovery because not knowing what happened haunts all the time.


When will you know that Mrs 20+ has given answers.

This is not a case of her not answering, this is a case of several here believing her answers are dishonest or incomplete. And I unaderstand why you think that, but the fact is absolute proof is impossible. So at wht point do you believe her?

Tis is why so many people in relationships have trust issues....because there is good reason to....but sometimes you have to trust.


----------



## Shaggy

She's still playing a game here, she isn't telling you the full story outright, instead she's offering to answer your questions. If you guess right you get an answer, if you don't guess the right question you get told nothing.

The right and honest thing would be for her to write down from when and how she met him, and go through the dates they went on, where when how they hooked up, and his far they went and why it eventually ended.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

Truthseeker1 said:


> I received apm from 20+ and he asked me to share some info with you all...
> 
> *"I truly do believe all that she has said. I pushed a little more last night...I could truly see the shame in her face bringing her to tears. She answered all of my questions, even the really difficult ones.
> 
> I told her that I didn't want to hurt her with having her relive that time in her life. She asked me to get a piece of paper and write down all of my questions that I needed answers to and she would do her best to answer them all with truth and honesty even the most hurtful ones.
> 
> I have to tell you I felt like a total D**K after this talk. I can say to you today that I feel very confident in what happen and no longer have a need for any additional questions. So she will not be getting a list from me"*
> 
> He is staying away from this message board for awhile....and taking his wife out to dinner....



Why she needed him to write down the question? Why cant she come clean and tell him what happened from beginning to end?

Why he is feeling like a **** head when she is the one who caused this? Why should he feel dik head when she is the person who got defensive and TTed for 20 +yrs? You should have done this many many yrs ago, atleast you are doing it now dont feel ashamed of it.

You are making another mistake by not asking questions, you did this 20 yrs ago, you are doing it again 20 yrs later. This is not to find out anything new but for your healing. 

Dont back off now and live again in misery for another 20 yrs thinking what might have she answered if i asked her that question or this question.


Dont back off and fall in complete trust now without you getting answers for your question and discussing it a thousand time with her and your MC. This is not to punish her, this is for your healing. If you did this you might not have been her now. 

This may be your last chance, use it wisely for yourself, her and your children.


----------



## badbane

after twenty years she still tears up. hmmm........... you know something doesn't seem quite right about that. I could understand feeling bad but, why in the hell is it that big of an event if it was as short lived and unimportant as it "was". Something is not right. Twenty years of fidelity and one slipup on my part. her reaction seems inflated for a minor event. I hate to say it but my spidey sense tells me that there is more to this. I wouldn't be hesitant to say that maybe there was a long term EA involved. I mean if this event was so minor why is she making him feel bad. IDK I would push forward because I definitely think that she is tearing up because she did something that she knows would ruin the marriage and has been keeping it a secret. Hoping you would just let it go. I think she has been carrying this burden for a long time and it is a heavy one. 20+ please heed my advice. The truth maybe ugly but it is the truth. the snowball has started and now you are going to start wanting to know more. She is going to try and protect you. The train is out of gear and is rolling downhill. You can either let it turn into a train wreck by burying this and let her keep worrying that the truth will spill out. OR you can steer it to safety by dealing with this entirely get the whole truth because now you're going to want to know. Curiousity will peek its head and you will want to know more. and with infidelity the number of years means nothing. I have read marriages where infidelity happened before the marriage in the exclusive relationship stage that ruined marriages. So please for the sake of your marriage, get the truth and get past this. after 20 years no matter what she did once won't matter much. because no matter what happened she choose you. She stayed with you and she stayed faithful to you..... unless there's more to the story. Especially if the OM is still in your life in some fashion.


----------



## workindad

Shaggy said:


> She's still playing a game here, she isn't telling you the full story outright, instead she's offering to answer your questions. If you guess right you get an answer, if you don't guess the right question you get told nothing.
> 
> The right and honest thing would be for her to write down from when and how she met him, and go through the dates they went on, where when how they hooked up, and his far they went and why it eventually ended.



OP, I hope you are still checking in and that you read this carefully.

Also, when she accused you of an EA, have you considered that she may have been projecting? 

Good luck
WD


----------



## MattMatt

I still feel there's more to this than meets the eyes. Like when BFF mentioned in passing that his wife kept sharing his best friend's drinks. That sent a chill through me as I knew what it meant. Cheating.

Something about your wife's reaction to something that happened 20 years ago and was really only a kiss? That sends a similar chill through me. Not as bad, there's probably been no sexual contact, but even so, something is off, somehow. :scratchhead:


----------



## life101

20plus, please read the first post of this thread if you come back:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52432-archeologist-truth.html



SomedayDig said:


> Hi...I'm Dig and I'm P.I.S.D. today. (Post Infidelity Stress Disorder)
> 
> All you waywards, I'm going to try to help you a bit today. It might not be pretty, but maybe you just might see something in a way you've never thought of before. I know I haven't and I'm the betrayed one and because I just came up with this while my own wayward, Regret, and I talked on our deck.
> 
> See...as a BS, I'm kind of like an archeologist of truth. I don't want to be, though. It's not what I studied for and the only desire for unearthing things I've ever had was finding where my dog hid my shoe in the back yard.
> 
> For the last few months, though, I have become quite adept as an archeologist.
> 
> The BS and WS stand next to each other on common ground. They stare down at the level earth and wonder what is down there. The irony is, the WS knows. They stand on top of the truth. The BS reaches down and picks up the shovel that is sitting there. The WS watches. And waits. The truth is out there, though, so there is nothing to worry about, right?
> 
> The BS hacks at the ground a bit with the shovel. Sometimes the ground is hard pan and sometimes its a softer dirt, but either way, the BS has to dig. After a while and the hole is opening up, the shovel clinks something beneath the soil. Reaching down, the BS picks up the chunk and shows it to the WS, who is standing there watching.
> 
> "What's this," the BS asks.
> "Ohh...I forgot about that," the WS replies.
> 
> And the BS continues to shovel dirt over and over. Ever so often the clink of something on the shovel is heard loudly and the BS reaches down to examine it, then shows it to the WS.
> 
> Suddenly, without even knowing...the BS is standing in the hole by themselves while the WS stands above looking down. Laboring with the shovel....sometimes with bare hands, the BS continues to toil and search and dig and recover lost artifacts of the truth. Some are small and some are large, but each one is significant in that the BS is the one in the hole. Digging.
> 
> Again and again the BS stands in the hole and holds up an artifact asking "what's this one"?
> 
> At some point, the WS needs to get in that f'ng hole and...
> 
> Dig


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Our words are falling on deaf ears, Because...


----------



## farthanperfect

You know, we all make stupid mistakes in our younger years. Let it go. You can't keep punishing yourself or her for the actions she made so many years ago. You have chosen to move on with her and forgive, well than forgive and let go and grow older and wiser together.


----------



## Wazza

life101 said:


> 20plus, please read the first post of this thread if you come back:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52432-archeologist-truth.html


If you are going to quote Dig, you should first note that his situation is very different. And secondly you should check out his writings in the Reconciliation thread.

The thing is, his wife lied. Repeatedly, and in ways 20+ wife does not appear to have.

20+ found out when he was told. Dig found out from a hotel bill.
Mrs 20+, while uncomfortable, offers up more detail. Regret (Dig's wife) lied more, over months.
Mrs 20+ had a fling for a few months while out of state. Regret carried on for about 3-4 years while living at home, including on special family occasions.
Mrs 20+ denies intercourse. Regret had it regularly, in hotels and inDig's home.

And guess what Dig has done? Forgive her, keep loving her, and move so they could work on the marriage together.

There are lots of threads here where the WS lies,it doesn't prove anything to just find a worse story. Hell, why not BFF or Eric415 who didn't reconcile? Malcolm38, LivingFree or DadWithTwoLittleGirls, whose wives also abrogated their parental responsibilities.

I will counter with Tears, who made a full confession, unbidden, and her husband still dumped her. Or MattMtt, whose wife had the integrity to tell him about her affair in advance. Point being these stories are all different.


----------



## badbane

The only reason the OP doesn't believe their was sex is based off of the WS's ability to look him in the eye. That's not proof that's wishful thinking. And if that fling out of state turns out to be a different story entirely then what. I am sorry but something stinks it stinks bad. 20 years is awesome by todays numbers but infidelity 20 years ago means that 20 years was a lie. OP please don't just let this go back under the rug because this is not going to get better until she comes clean 100%.


----------



## MattMatt

badbane said:


> The only reason the OP doesn't believe their was sex is based off of the WS's ability to look him in the eye. That's not proof that's wishful thinking. And if that fling out of state turns out to be a different story entirely then what. I am sorry but something stinks it stinks bad. 20 years is awesome by todays numbers but infidelity 20 years ago means that 20 years was a lie. OP please don't just let this go back under the rug because this is not going to get better until she comes clean 100%.


:iagree:
A lie? Well, at first I thought, surely not a lie? But then I realised I had to agree.

The lie was a secret that one spouse kept, hidden within themselves for 20 years. It was always there, in her mind.

Why did she think her husband was having an affair? Because she really thought he was having an affair? 

Or because the secret in her mind was poking her and saying: "See? He's no better than you! He's a cheater, too!"?

She accidentally made the marriage into a lie because her husband didn't know what she knew.

And 20 years is what? four or five Presidents ago? That's not that long, really.

However! I think that with honesty and openness they can have another 20, 30 40+ years together. But there's got to be honestly and openness.


----------



## BrockLanders

Has anyone over the age of 18 dated someone for over two months without having sex with them?


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## ThePheonix

Any guy who has played with a number of married women has gotten no further than first base (kissing) with some to hitting a home run the first time at bat with others. It's like some of you are irritated that some women may stop short of sleeping with the guy while other hop right in the sack.
If somebody could, perhaps you can give 20+, et.al. some instructions to identify when he has the truth.


----------



## Wazza

MattMatt said:


> :iagree:
> A lie? Well, at first I thought, surely not a lie? But then I realised I had to agree.
> 
> The lie was a secret that one spouse kept, hidden within themselves for 20 years. It was always there, in her mind.
> 
> Why did she think her husband was having an affair? Because she really thought he was having an affair?
> 
> Or because the secret in her mind was poking her and saying: "See? He's no better than you! He's a cheater, too!"?
> 
> She accidentally made the marriage into a lie because her husband didn't know what she knew.
> 
> And 20 years is what? four or five Presidents ago? That's not that long, really.
> 
> However! I think that with honesty and openness they can have another 20, 30 40+ years together. But there's got to be honestly and openness.


There clearly was a lie...a grey area she didn't talk about. 

The question is whether what she has confessed is also complete. So do you assume she is lying still? And if so, why?


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## life101

Wazza said:


> If you are going to quote Dig, you should first note that his situation is very different. And secondly you should check out his writings in the Reconciliation thread.
> 
> The thing is, his wife lied. Repeatedly, and in ways 20+ wife does not appear to have.
> 
> 20+ found out when he was told. Dig found out from a hotel bill.
> Mrs 20+, while uncomfortable, offers up more detail. Regret (Dig's wife) lied more, over months.
> Mrs 20+ had a fling for a few months while out of state. Regret carried on for about 3-4 years while living at home, including on special family occasions.
> Mrs 20+ denies intercourse. Regret had it regularly, in hotels and inDig's home.
> 
> And guess what Dig has done? Forgive her, keep loving her, and move so they could work on the marriage together.
> 
> There are lots of threads here where the WS lies,it doesn't prove anything to just find a worse story. Hell, why not BFF or Eric415 who didn't reconcile? Malcolm38, LivingFree or DadWithTwoLittleGirls, whose wives also abrogated their parental responsibilities.
> 
> I will counter with Tears, who made a full confession, unbidden, and her husband still dumped her. Or MattMtt, whose wife had the integrity to tell him about her affair in advance. Point being these stories are all different.


I am not going to engage you. To each his own. I am a person who values truth more than anything. My post was meant for 20plus who is still suffering because he didn't get the full truth. If he decides that he can live blissfully under the cloud of untruth, then it is his choice.

To forgive, you need to know what you are forgiving. Otherwise it is just a sham, a mirage of happiness, a trainwreck waiting to take place. That's all.


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## MattMatt

BrockLanders said:


> Has anyone over the age of 18 dated someone for over two months without having sex with them?


Yes. As it happens. I did.


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## Wazza

life101 said:


> I am not going to engage you. To each his own. I am a person who values truth more than anything. My post was meant for 20plus who is still suffering because he didn't get the full truth. If he decides that he can live blissfully under the cloud of untruth, then it is his choice.
> 
> To forgive, you need to know what you are forgiving. Otherwise it is just a sham, a mirage of happiness, a trainwreck waiting to take place. That's all.


I value truth too. And you will find me as an early participant in Dig's thread because I faced a similar dilemma to 20+.

I don't care whether you engage me. But you keep screaming "she is still lying" without proof.

If you want to help 20+ you should justify your perspective. Raising suspicion without proof could push him to end a marriage with someone who has told the truth.


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## life101

Wazza said:


> I value truth too. And you will find me as an early participant in Dig's thread because I faced a similar dilemma to 20+.
> 
> I don't care whether you engage me. *But you keep screaming "she is still lying" without proof.*
> If you want to help 20+ you should justify your perspective. Raising suspicion without proof could push him to end a marriage with someone who has told the truth.


I am as much entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. You seem to have a hard time dealing with someone who doesn't agree with you. Very interesting.

She may be innocent, she may be guilty. If she didn't do anything more than an innocent 'kiss', then what is the problem with a polygraph test? Why wouldn't a BS want the full truth? Why would other BSs support the decision of not knowing the full truth? This part I don't understand.


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## Wazza

life101 said:


> I am as much entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. You seem to have a hard time dealing with someone who doesn't agree with you. Very interesting.
> 
> She may be innocent, she may be guilty. If she didn't do anything more than an innocent 'kiss', then what is the problem with a polygraph test? Why wouldn't a BS want the full truth? Why would other BSs support the decision of not knowing the full truth? This part I don't understand.


Hi life....

Honestly I don't care if you disagree with me, and I am not always right. 

But having been where 20+ is....it is really hard when you are trying to figure it out. I agree with you that not getting the whole truth would be a problem, but so is badgering and pestering someone who has given the truth and refusing not believe them. I have seen both do damage.

Re polygraph....depending where you read, they have somewhere between a 10% and 40% failure rate. That to me is too high to be worth it.

Knowing the truth with certainty is ideal, but not always possible. If your only tool for knowing the truth is a polygraph, then I think you have no tool.


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## badbane

higher than that wazza. The point is he doesn't know the truth and it obviously has been plaguing him enough to seek advice here. That tells me that the OP has doubts. Since coming on here he is realizing that he may or may not have handled the affair properly. Hell what if it turns out to be a well hidden ten year affair. What if they are still communicating. The OP is from a time where there wasn't a real way to find out someone was cheating other than someone else telling them, the spouse spilled the beans, or someone came home early and found the couple together. Now we have all this info readily available and I wonder if infidelity rates really did go up. I just wonder if more people got caught rather than any real increase in the number of affairs.


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## Wazza

badbane said:


> higher than that wazza. The point is he doesn't know the truth and it obviously has been plaguing him enough to seek advice here. That tells me that the OP has doubts. Since coming on here he is realizing that he may or may not have handled the affair properly. Hell what if it turns out to be a well hidden ten year affair. What if they are still communicating. The OP is from a time where there wasn't a real way to find out someone was cheating other than someone else telling them, the spouse spilled the beans, or someone came home early and found the couple together. Now we have all this info readily available and I wonder if infidelity rates really did go up. I just wonder if more people got caught rather than any real increase in the number of affairs.





michzz said:


> This was my situation!


Mine too, maybe 

That is why this matters so much. 

You can ruin the marriage by not getting the issues out, and you can ruin it by always suspecting there is more. Either way is bad. So how do you proceed in the absence of absolute certainty?

It is a hard question.


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## Wazza

michzz said:


> i solved it by finally divorcing her


That is one solution...and in some ways the best.

So you plan to live alone for ever?

Or if you have another relationship, how do you know the new significant other is being truthful with you?


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## the guy

20PlusYears said:


> . That there is some guy thinking hey, i was able to take this dude wife. I know that it's my issue not hers.


Interesting, I always tought of it as "some guys has to deal with my wifes bull crap and I don't have to"! I'm wired different then most.

Screw the OM and all OM's...they commit adultory and I don't so from were I'm sitting, they don't have sh!t over me!

Enless I kill them, then murder trumps adultory


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## Thor

Wazza said:


> You can ruin the marriage by not getting the issues out, and you can ruin it by always suspecting there is more. Either way is bad. So how do you proceed in the absence of absolute certainty?
> 
> It is a hard question.


In a very young marriage it is easier to pull the plug in the face of suspicions. In a long term marriage it is very difficult. The same reasons men decide to R with a known cheater are the same reasons a man avoids D without certainty. There is a lot of history, memories, and even good times together. What we have cannot be recreated in a new marriage.

Whatever it takes to get factual data is worth it. I think some risk of false results is acceptable if the alternative is no data.


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## LongWalk

OP made his decision after considering the advice. His right to move on.


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## lordmayhem

LongWalk said:


> OP made his decision after considering the advice. His right to move on.


Elvis has left the building. Nothing more to see here.


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## Wazza

Thor said:


> In a very young marriage it is easier to pull the plug in the face of suspicions. In a long term marriage it is very difficult. The same reasons men decide to R with a known cheater are the same reasons a man avoids D without certainty. There is a lot of history, memories, and even good times together. What we have cannot be recreated in a new marriage.
> 
> Whatever it takes to get factual data is worth it. I think some risk of false results is acceptable if the alternative is no data.


Reasonable, provided you understand the risk of false results. All you can do, in fact.


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## barbados

They went out to dinner. Its all good now. Properly rug swept again during desert.


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## Wazza

michzz said:


> I have a serious GF. I don't plan on living alone forever, no.
> 
> One can never blindly trust anyone since going through what I have,
> 
> However, I know this new lady is not anything like the ex.
> 
> I trust but watch. I don't snoop. We've both been burned by cheaters and agree that at the first whiff of infidelity we both are of the mindset of ending it.
> 
> That said, I'm having the time of my life.
> 
> Some risk in all relationships. But toxic secret crap? I know it now and avoid it.
> 
> Focused on the good now.


It seems to me you have a similar outlook to me.

My wife was (is) imperfect, but not toxic. A better than average risk imo. Had she been toxic, things might have ended very differently!

A lot of my reading of 20+'s case is that the wife seems to have come good when asked....better than mine did in fact. I would have posted very differently otherwise...


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## Mr Blunt

*



It's been 20 years, should I just let it go?

Click to expand...

**What you should do is to shut up about it, learn to control your thoughts, and take actions that will build you and your wife up.*

You said that you forgave her but I say that is bunk! If you forgave her then why do you keep bring up any thing about that mistake of 20 years ago? Find out what real forgiveness is then get busy and do it!

From what you have written your wife is really remorseful and has proven that by her 20 years of faithfulness to you. You said:

*



I love my family and will not do anything to destroy what we've have built over these 20 years.

Click to expand...

**But you are doing something to hurt your family. You are letting your insecurities and failure to do things that would put the affair of 20 years ago away affect your thoughts and emotions that are negative.*

My wife did more than kiss and the other pre-sex activities more than 20 years ago. I built myself up so that her affair would not destroy me, nor ruin our family, nor affect me so much that I was harming the R. Secondly, when I got stronger I was able to help her heal. 

Was it fair what she did, do I have to stay married to her, and am I obligated to help her? NO

So why did I stay? I stayed because she like me is a flawed person but a good person. I stayed because we have three children, I stayed because those who forgive will be forgiven, I stayed because she was very remorseful and proved it for over 20 years, I stayed because it pleased God for me to give mercy and believed that God would bless me, and I stayed because I still love this woman.

If you are still reading this thread then I hope that you will get off the fence and do what is right for you, your children, and tour family. Maybe you are already doing that now, I hope so!

*One final thought. 
IN YOUR CASE I say, if you are not getting encouragement to get your family closer together on TAM then I recommend that you stop reading this website. JMO*



Blunt


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## 20PlusYears

Hi everyone, I thought that I would give an update to my story. As I mentioned in my last post, I finally discovered that it did go further then just kissing. It wasn't full blown sex, but just about everything you can do up to the sexual act itself. I have to admit that this really through me for a loop for about a day. However, I suddenly realized that, so what?…this was 20 years ago…the woman that I'm with right now, isn't the woman of 20 years ago…She's suffered for her indiscretion already…She's proven over these 20 years since, that she was and is committed to our relationship.

I now realize what a lot of people, on this board, already knew…I needed to move on past that past incident, which had already been addressed 20 years ago, NOT SWEPT UNDER THE RUG. I know that she was afraid of losing me, so she didn't want to tell me the full extent of the make out session. Having the benefit of growing with my wife over these years, I have to admit that I'm glad that she did not tell me the full extent back then. I would have ended the marriage and missed out on the life I've been lucky to have.

What really surprised me these past weeks, is how easily I was able to get passed the knowledge that it had gone as far as it did. Don't get me wrong, it really broke me down for a day or so, but, after looking at everything in totality, I realize that what I have now overrides this one indiscretion in time. Unlike the view of some on this board of my apparent misery , I've experienced great joy and happiness over these years. I allowed myself to question the past based on things that I've consistently read on this board related to discovering a kiss equaled sex. Although I feel confident that there wasn't sex, looking at the big picture, does it really matter….No!

Anyway, the wife and I are doing better than ever. I truly appreciate her more now then I did before this new discovery. I know there are many people on this board going through what I lived 20 years ago. It's difficult knowing if you're making the right decision to either reconcile or divorce. You're not sure if your spouse will just take the affair underground or have another affair later in the marriage. I have what most of you don't; I have the benefit of seeing my spouse in action over a 20 year period. I have the benefit of seeing how happy my life could be after infidelity. I see that people can make mistakes, and spend a life time becoming the spouse that their partner always thought they would be.

Thank you all for your support and advice. I only hope that which ever path your relationship eventually takes, that you will become stronger and have a successfully and fulfilling life afterwards.

20PlusYears


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## workindad

How do you know it stopped short of sex and that there has not been a repeat?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Just wait until the triggers hit you, it isn't that easy to put behind you no matter how much of a ra-ra pep talk you give yourself.


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## aug

Shaggy said:


> Just wait until the triggers hit you, it isn't that easy to put behind you no matter how much of a ra-ra pep talk you give yourself.



so true...


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## manfromlamancha

While I am glad that you are over it and that you know the truth, the simple facts are:


She pretty much had sex with a friend 20 years ago
She kept this from you for 20 years deceitfully, for self preservation reasons, while depriving you of free choice in the matter
She still thinks about him (jokingly referred to him when you wouldn't take her to an event)
Has not really been in the same situation as 20 years ago else who knows what might have happened

Remember that this is what you are now forgiving and going forward with. Good luck with the future.


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## aug

manfromlamancha said:


> While I am glad that you are over it and that you know the truth, the simple facts are:
> 
> 
> She pretty much had sex with a friend 20 years ago
> She kept this from you for 20 years deceitfully, for self preservation reasons, while depriving you of free choice in the matter
> She still thinks about him (jokingly referred to him when you wouldn't take her to an event)
> Has not really been in the same situation as 20 years ago else who knows what might have happened
> 
> Remember that this is what you are now forgiving and going forward with. Good luck with the future.


Yes. She has been thinking about him. Recently too. Good luck purging that.


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## Thor

This is a long roller coaster ride 20+Y is on. It ain't over yet.


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## workindad

Thor said:


> This is a long roller coaster ride 20+Y is on. It ain't over yet.


I'm thinking its more like a boat ride down that famous river called... the Nile or is it da-nile, maybe denial


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## Wazza

20+, be prepared that the emotions will probably come up again. That was what Shaggy meant with triggers.

But I think you are right...twenty years is a long penance.


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## Mr Blunt

> Quote of 20 plus years
> She's proven over these 20 years since, that she was and is committed to our relationship.


*That is so much stronger evidence than the doubts that can be presented!*

*Your marriage has an excellent chance of making it!* It may be true that you will struggle with triggers from time to time but the 20 years that she has proven to you that she s committed to you is more than enough to defeat the triggers and doubts.


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## manfromlamancha

She has proven to be a perfect wife for the last 20 years since that last wayward incident

so long as ...

she is never put in that situation, being away from you for work for an extended period and with that man (or someone very similar to that man) in proximity.

All I'm saying is that you still need to be vigilant - I am willing to bet that she still has some (vestigial) emotion for that man else she would not be thinking about him - this is not to say that she does not love you but everyone is fallible (especially where she has done this before).

So enjoy life but be vigilant and mindful of this.


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## barbados

20PlusYears said:


> Hi everyone, I thought that I would give an update to my story. As I mentioned in my last post,* I finally discovered that it did go further then just kissing. It wasn't full blown sex, but just about everything you can do up to the sexual act itself. * I have to admit that this really through me for a loop for about a day. However, I suddenly realized that, so what?…this was 20 years ago…the woman that I'm with right now, isn't the woman of 20 years ago…She's suffered for her indiscretion already…She's proven over these 20 years since, that she was and is committed to our relationship.


In my original post on 8/2, I stated mu opinion that she was lying to you about it just being kissing. Now 2 weeks later you post the above. 

What your wife is now admitting to you is still TT. Its how most cheaters do it. They admit to JUST feelings, then JUST kissing, then JUST everything but PIV, then JUST one time PIV, etc. You get the point.

THEY JUST KISSED = THEY HAD SEX. They could make that a sticky here its so often true.

You state that you have made your peace with it now, after all of a day or two of finding this out. OK, that's your decision, just as along as you are making an informed and honest decision.

IMO, its sounds like another rug sweep, because the real truth is going to be to painful for you to deal with. You say she has been a great wife, but she has also been a wife that has lied to you about something very important for 20 years while having children with you.


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## workindad

I agree Barbados. This is rug sweeping round 2. 

It will haunt him again in the future at some point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## manfromlamancha

Pretty much what I have been trying to say - I have been dealing with a similar situation but the time period was 30+ years and I still do not have closure.

She needs to tell you the complete truth in one go (poly may help this along) and you need to fully establish (a) if there were any others and (b) the full extent of this relationship - why does she still think of OM, is he still in contact etc

Else it will raise its head when those unexpected triggers occur (and trust me they will occur)


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

20 years ago his WS TT'd him, he rug swept what she had admitted too doing and then he buried his head in the sand.

So here he is at present time, his WS is TT'ing him again, he's rug sweeping again and he's about to bury his head in the sand, AGAIN...

20 Years ago she told you that they only kissed. You now find out that "they only kissed" is cheat talk for they did everything, but screw.

What do you think that "they did everything, but screw" will be cheat talk for Tomorrow?...

Good luck trying to convince yourself that she's finally told you everything. But hey, you did it for 20 years last time, so it should be old hat for you now, right...


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## ThePheonix

It looks to me his best bet is to assume the worst case that she had sex with the guy and decide if he found out, would he do anything. If the answer is no, why sweat it. If it happened once 20 years ago, why care if it happened 2+ times 20 years ago. It ain't like rhw guy could wear it out.


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## uncool

Your wife did something important! She had guts and actually came clean! She admitted she screwed up and fixed her error!
She chose you! and has been faithful ever since. For 20+ years you've had a happy marriage! She's grown up! Not many of us on here have this!

the OP needs some individual counseling so he can put this aside and bask in his happy marriage.


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## aug

uncool said:


> Your wife did something important! She had guts and actually came clean! *She admitted she screwed up and fixed her error!*
> She chose you! and has been faithful ever since. For 20+ years you've had a happy marriage! She's grown up! Not many of us on here have this!
> 
> the OP needs some individual counseling so he can put this aside and bask in his happy marriage.




Not really, if she's still recently thinking about her lover fondly. 

She told more under pressure. It was not voluntary.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

uncool said:


> Your wife did something important! She had guts and actually came clean! She admitted she screwed up and fixed her error!


He had to threaten her with a poly to get her to come clean. Even then, it was based on lack of eye contact and assumptions.
She minimized 20 years ago.


> This is when she told me about her affair while in Hawaii. She said that *they had not had sex but that they had kissed and it was over.* She was not in-love with this guy and wanted to be with me. I repeatedly questioned her about the extent of the affair, but she always and still says that there was no sex.


Then she trickle truthed. 


> Anyway, taking the advice of one poster, I questioned her on her definition of sex. Is it just intercourse, or does it include oral as well? She stated that she did not give or receive oral and there was no intercourse. I next asked again was it more than just kissing? *Did you make out, which include fondling, petting, etc. I could tell that she was hesitant to answering this question. She began looking very uncomfortable and appeared to have a difficult time looking me in the eye.* Every time that I would ask about the sex, she would look me in the eyes and confidently say no. However, I never thought to ask this question until a couple of days ago, when she clammed up.


Then she said it was:


> Hi everyone, I thought that I would give an update to my story. As I mentioned in my last post, I finally discovered that it did go further then just kissing. *It wasn't full blown sex, but just about everything you can do up to the sexual act itself.*


That isn't fixing nor is it a free admission of fault. This will upset some BSs, but she should have kept her mouth shut. Oh, and I believe she told him she had sex and he knows how CWI posters can be. 



> She chose you! and has been faithful ever since. For 20+ years you've had a happy marriage! She's grown up! Not many of us on here have this!


Maybe, maybe not. He could have been plan B because OM said "Wham bam, thank you ma'am, bye." We've seen multiple grooming OM.

This is* EXACTLY *why I told him to leave the thread, when he felt everything was fine, It was only going to get worse.


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## Janky

Reading thtough this thread goes to show ya that no matter how its been, betrayal's seem to last a lifetime.

I witnessed the same exact thing happen to my grandparents as I was growing up.

Grandpa caught grandma cheating when they were married in their 20's with 2 kids, they R and stayed together for whatever reason.

It was weird hearing my grandpa, in his late 60's, still bringing it up from time to time. I could tell it still botjered him even though it was over 40 years ago.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Janky
> Reading though this thread goes to show ya that no matter how its been, betrayal's seem to last a lifetime.


You are probably right; betrayal can have some effect for a lifetime. However, betrayal does not have to ruin your life, cause you to be controlled by suspicions, negatively dig at your emotions, or cause you to want constant apologies for 20 years.






> Quote of 20 plus years
> she’s proven over these 20 years since that she was and is committed to our relationship.


*That 20 years maybe more commitment than many of the suspicious doubters on this thread have given to their relationship.*


----------



## sidney2718

20PlusYears said:


> Hi everyone, I thought that I would give an update to my story. As I mentioned in my last post, I finally discovered that it did go further then just kissing. It wasn't full blown sex, but just about everything you can do up to the sexual act itself. I have to admit that this really through me for a loop for about a day. However, I suddenly realized that, so what?…this was 20 years ago…the woman that I'm with right now, isn't the woman of 20 years ago…She's suffered for her indiscretion already…She's proven over these 20 years since, that she was and is committed to our relationship.
> 
> I now realize what a lot of people, on this board, already knew…I needed to move on past that past incident, which had already been addressed 20 years ago, NOT SWEPT UNDER THE RUG. I know that she was afraid of losing me, so she didn't want to tell me the full extent of the make out session. Having the benefit of growing with my wife over these years, I have to admit that I'm glad that she did not tell me the full extent back then. I would have ended the marriage and missed out on the life I've been lucky to have.
> 
> What really surprised me these past weeks, is how easily I was able to get passed the knowledge that it had gone as far as it did. Don't get me wrong, it really broke me down for a day or so, but, after looking at everything in totality, I realize that what I have now overrides this one indiscretion in time. Unlike the view of some on this board of my apparent misery , I've experienced great joy and happiness over these years. I allowed myself to question the past based on things that I've consistently read on this board related to discovering a kiss equaled sex. Although I feel confident that there wasn't sex, looking at the big picture, does it really matter….No!
> 
> Anyway, the wife and I are doing better than ever. I truly appreciate her more now then I did before this new discovery. I know there are many people on this board going through what I lived 20 years ago. It's difficult knowing if you're making the right decision to either reconcile or divorce. You're not sure if your spouse will just take the affair underground or have another affair later in the marriage. I have what most of you don't; I have the benefit of seeing my spouse in action over a 20 year period. I have the benefit of seeing how happy my life could be after infidelity. I see that people can make mistakes, and spend a life time becoming the spouse that their partner always thought they would be.
> 
> Thank you all for your support and advice. I only hope that which ever path your relationship eventually takes, that you will become stronger and have a successfully and fulfilling life afterwards.
> 
> 20PlusYears


Let it go. You are a perfectly sane man with a good marriage. You do not want to flush it down the drain because of what did or did not happen 20 years ago.

Some folks here who have been very badly hurt by their spouses often push hard for more discovery. One cannot blame them. But I don't think more discovery will do you any good. It will only make you angry which in turn will hurt your marriage for no gain whatsoever.

We know how this situation worked out. She did not leave you for another man. She did not take up a life of deceit and deception. In fact from what you say you've had a very good run since then.

Here's to many many more years!


----------

