# Lost



## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

I am new to this NMMNG thing and am still trying to get the hang of it so to speak. My W and I have been married for 10+ years and have been having problems for about 7 of them on and off. 

Before I found out how much of a doormat I was being I always did the typical thing and let things slide and hope that it would just get better by itself. Ya, like that was going to happen!

Anyway, I have now started to be more assertive and discuss my needs with my wife,but I am running into the same walls as before. Every time I bring up anything that has to do with our relationship or my feelings, I get a brick wall, she does not want to discuss. She will do her best to try and avoid the conversation or become so stand-offish that I get agitate. Once this happens she shuts down even more. And then uses the excuse that she wont talk because it always ends up in a fight!

My feeling is, how is anything ever going to get worked out if we cant ever discuss it? I feel like I am not allowed to have feelings or allowed to be angry with something.:scratchhead:

I am sitting here writing this and I cant even figure out what to say, my mind is like a tornado of mixed emotions. 

Maybe I will just leave it at this and see where it goes.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You don't discuss your needs with her. You show her through actions what you need. "Hon, you expect me to spend every spare minute away from work with you and the kids. I love you, but I also need a life as a man. I'm going to meet the boys Saturday night. I'll be gone til 11pm. And hey, by the way, I'd really like it if YOU would take some time off and have some fun with your girlfriends; I'm happy to babysit."


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Ternera,

Thanks for your reply, 

I think I did not make " my needs" very clear in my first post. 

The one I have right now is knowing from her whether or not she is serious about having this relationship anymore. She tells me, the fact that she is here should tell me that she wants it, but the "her" that is here is not very nice to be around sometimes and never wants to discuss anything. Its like, I am here...that should be enough for you , don't ask me to tell you how i feel,or show it. 
She is not affectionate anymore, she does not tell me she loves me, she does not act like my partner in life. She seems to be more concerned with our daughter and my other daughter (her stepdaughter ) and I are just something she tolerates because she has too.

What confuses me the most is , she makes plans for the future which seem to include me , but there does not seem to be any relationship now that has a future. She wont work out with me the problems that we have now. It is like we are just room mates going thru life with 2 kids.

I realize that this is probably very confusing,but I am just writing as I think.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No. I said don't DISCUSS your needs with your wife.

Women need their men to be strong. They HATE men who come to them, hat in hand, and ASK for what they want. 

She has lost respect for you because you are a Nice Guy. 

Read the book No More Mr. Nice Guy and come back and let us know what you've learned.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

:iagree:


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

So.........

What i should do is just tell her that if she does not give me some indication of whether or not she is serious and if she is,start acting like it or its over?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Most likely, she has gradually shut you down because you Love Bust her and don't meet her top 5 Emotional Needs. This is key. 

You can't give her an ultimatum until you are sure you OFFER something worth changing for. 

Go to marriagebuilders.com (avoid their forums; it's toxic) and print out two copies of their Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires. Hand her the LB one and ask her to fill it out; tell her you realize you haven't been the best husband in the world, and this questionnaire will tell you what you have been doing wrong. Tell her you intend to make changes, but you need to know exactly what to change; she should love getting to tell you what you're doing wrong.

You fill yours out, too. Trade with each other, read, and LEARN. Spend about 2 months eliminating all your bad habits in which you LB'd her; ask her to do the same. She may, she may not, but at least she'll have your list; that's all you can do at this point.

You have to eliminate the ways you upset her (LBs) before you can get her to care about you again. This is vital.

After a couple months, give her the EN questionnaire and ask her to fill it out. It will tell you what's most important to her. Her top ENs could be affection, could be conversation, could be financial security...you need to KNOW so you are the one person meeting those needs (if you don't, she'll find someone else who will). Spend the next couple months continuing to watch for and eliminate LBs, but also looking for ways to meet her ENs.

If you do this for about 6 months, you should see a DRASTIC drastic change in the way she interacts with you. (And, of course, read up on Nice Guy and make sure you're not kissing up to her)

Oh, and make sure you and she are spending 10 to 15 hours a week together, doing non-kid/household/work-related things. In other words, start dating again, even if it's 15 minutes at a time sharing cups of coffee in the morning. You HAVE to feed your marriage with one on one attention and caring. Fifteen hours is hard to meet, but SO worth it in the quality of your relationship.

Once you've changed the atmosphere in the house, once you've got her looking forward to being with you, you shouldn't even have to talk to her about anything.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

While I totally agree with turnera's suggestion, make sure you aren't JUST changing behavior or doing it for her approval or with expectation of a response from her. You are doing this to learn about yourself, develop your heart. When you seek approval from within, you do things out of the genuinous of your heart. Then, her reaction is really no big deal either way. You become happy with you. It all depends on the depth of her anger and hurt. It may take much more time than 6 months.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Wow,

All great advice

Now if only I could decide if I really want this to work out or not. One part of me does and one part thinks maybe it would be better if it just ended. I suppose this is normal to have mixed feelings.

I am just so frustrated now because we just cant seem to talk at all. We can have somewhat normal conversations about other things but it is forced sometimes. If we even try and talk about us it just turns into a battle.

There are other things involved as well, please see my other post a while back...........http://talkaboutmarriage.com/family...-wife-severely-dislikes-my-daughter-help.html

This issue still has not been resolved and the only releif now is that she has been living and working back in her home town and the kids are both here with me. It has been ok because we have not had the friction in the house but just this week she came back to do some work and it has all gotten stressfull again.

Still feel so lost..guess I will try the things suggested and go from there.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You're not listening to me. If you do the steps I say, THINGS WILL CHANGE. (and if they don't, then she's probably cheating on you)


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

BTW 

I have read NMMNG several times, It is very difficult to break away from these old habits. I tell myself that I will deal with things in a different way the way have I have learned from the book and then in the heat of things it all goes back. I really need to learn to stick to my guns or hold on to my N.U.T.S as they say!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Then you need therapy to learn to overcome your fear and/or your low self-worth.


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Wow

That really hit a nerve ,but I think you may be right.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Look. You become a Nice Guy because you are afraid. Afraid she will leave you if you don't kiss up to her.

If you can't respect yourself enough to say 'so what,' then why should she?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

At wits end said:


> Wow
> 
> That really hit a nerve ,but I think you may be right.


I guarantee she's right.

With every word, you keep giving her all the power.

Believe me, every time you try to talk to her about your "feelings" - (and they are clearly your feelings about what she IS or IS NOT doing) - you look like a needy whiny chump.

She'll listen to you WHEN SHE ASKS - and not a minute sooner.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

Conrad said:


> I guarantee she's right.
> 
> With every word, you keep giving her all the power.
> 
> ...


Hahaha. So true. Don't talk to her about your feelings for quite some time and only when asked. It only leads to her spewing bull at you to see how you take it. Be a man, not her girlfriend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Conrad,

Thanks,

I think I get it now....just leave it. 

I cant seem to get past the thought of.... if I want to talk about it, it is because I care. But, It does not work that way. 

But the thing I don't get is how is it going to get solved if nobody approaches it?

It is kind of like ...if she thinks it does not matter to me, she will talk to me about it?

What if she is the type who takes someone doing this as ...why bother , because you dont seem to care anyway?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What are you learning about no longer being a Nice Guy? It sounds like you quit reading and studying.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

AWE,

You aren't going to be able to make up her mind for her.

If you improve yourself and become proactive in meeting your own needs and in having them met.... isn't that simply a plus for you regardless of what she does?

Don't put so much weight in her opinion.

She likely doesn't - and loses respect for you when she senses you doing this.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What's going to get solved is that you are going to start respecting yourself so that, if she doesn't do the same, you will feel worthy of leaving her if she can't/won't. 

Why would you want to stay in a marriage when the other person doesn't even care if you're around?


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

I'll leave the professional advice to the professionals and just let you know what I've determined. My wife is EXACTLY like yours and my response was exactly like yours. I determined that my wife won't talk to me because she knows I wouldn't like what she has to say. It's easier to just clam up and make an excuse for doing so than to have to deal with the fallout that comes with telling the truth.

-I don't love you.
-Haven't for some time.
-Don't like to be intimate with you.
-Haven't for some time.
-If it wasn't for this mortgage and these kids holding me down, I'd have been gone years ago.

My wife's not leaving. Neither am I. That being the case, honesty in conversations is a non-starter for her. And my whinning and pleading for the past two years hasn't helped. My wife is gone. I suspect yours is also. Man-up and do a 180 for you, not her.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Or follow the MB plan and focus on ENs and LBs and see if you don't get your old wife back before you give up. Along with the manning up, of course.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

Emotional connection is everything. However, emotional connection is actually bad if you are a "nice guy" or "woman approval seeker". Change you. Then start to work on connection like turnera is suggesting. You want to invite her into a NEW relationship with a NEW you. This takes time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Ok,

A little more info and some course of action.

The situation in my life right now is my wife has currently gone back to her home town to work and the kids are here with me. I dont have the least bit of problem being a working Dad as I have done this before. 

Everything has been fine with her being gone and it has been ALOT more peaceful in the house since she left about a month ago. I had told her already through chat and what not that I was very hurt by all that was happening and I needed time to think about what was going to happen with us.

Well, she had come back for a work related issue last week and the stress levels went right back up again. She started being critical about every little thing ...you know...why is this there , why is this like that , why didn't you do this or that. So, I called her on it and told her that I did not appreciate her being this way.Well of course this started the whole thing off and for 3 days after it was nothing but disagreements.

We got into a big fight the second day she was here and again the next day and it was mostly me trying to explain that something she was angry about was not what I had said. She has a habit of getting angry about something and then her anger just seems to shut off her hearing. She is also a type of person that when someone gets angry with them, their defense mechanism is to get twice as angry back. 

Anyway, Finally managed to make her understand after the whole day of emails back and forth that the first thing she had gotten angry about she had misunderstood and she agreed on this and apologized. So I thought we were cool.

I had, during all this going on, gone back thru the posts and found and re-read the 180 rules and decided I was going to try this.

Well the next day on the way to dropping me off at work, just before we arrive she starts up again with the same thing. I tried to give the example of what had happened the day before and tell her that as long as this keeps happening there is very little that will be solved. She is also very bad at taking even the slightest of critisism , so of course this did not go over well either. 

The answer to this was losing her temper again and saying " you know what? ,I think we are done!

I then replied ...ok

Her: No, I mean it , I really think we are done!

Me: ok

Her: no , I am not asking you for a decision now, you think bout it and decided later.

Me: I dont need to think about it, we are done.

I then parked the car and walked away without another word.

I expected to get another day of emails from her ,but to my surprise , only a message later in the afternoon from her asking ....do you think we are capable of talking without getting upset with each other? to which I replied ...Do You?

No other massage after that.

I then got home from work and acted happy with the kids and went about things as if nothing had happened. She did not try and talk to me at all, only got all of her things packed as this was the day she was going back.

I drove her to the airport and helped her with the bags, got in the car and drove away.

I feel like it was kind of cruel to do it this way but also felt that I was left with no other choice.

I don't know what is going to happen from this point on ,but I am going to stick with this 180 thing and see.


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## WindMountain (Oct 27, 2011)

After reading that, you started out a bit too wussy, but toward the end you did a great job man. You're actually closer than you think. *You are happy either way, and have a whole life to look forward to with or without her.* She can do whatever she wants and you don't give a hoot.

Next time she does something you don't like, don't tell her why you don't like it. Don't explain. Just say what you feel and stop there:

Bad:
"Don't leave the remote up here! How many times do I have to tell you?"
"I can leave the remote wherever I want. Its my house too and I have every right to do what I want"
"What makes you say that? Its my house too! Who made you the ruler?"
"Well blah blah blah"

Good:
"Don't leave the remote up here! How many times do I have to tell you?"
"I don't appreciate your attitude."
"Well, don't put things here and I won't have an attitude!"
<shrug>

State your feelings. Don't ask her. She doesn't need to agree or even understand. Don't make a conversation about it. She can know why you feel the way you do when she earns the right to. Not before you're happy with the way she's acting though. Don't be pissed off or happy when responding -- her opinion does not matter!


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

WindMountain

Thanks, That helps a lot.

I guess I am having a lot of trouble getting the hang of this, I am going on 49 and have been a "nice guy " as long as I can remember. After reading the book and having the same reaction as most, like it was written about my life! I guess it was an awaking of sorts. 

I still find it very unnatural to do some of the things,but at the same time can notice a different behavior as a result. 

I have done this before with my first wife who was very physically abusive, but the marriage ended so fast that I guess I did not see the long term affects of how it can change. I finally manned up then and ended a five year hell. But seems like I fell right back into the nice guy thing after I met my current wife.

I will NOT let that happen again, not with the support that is available from this site and others I did not even know about back then. I did it on my own then.

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to read my posts and provide your wisdom...it is very much appreciated.

Please feel free to keep it coming!!


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Just something else I would like to bounce of all of you.

Is it normal to feel like I am not really sure if I even want her to come around?

I mean, I realize that this journey is for me and I need to do it for myself and I will be a better person for it with or without her.

But 

I don't really like her much as a person right now. I could never imagine that the women I fell in love with could be this way. I think this is what has really hurt me the most. 

I am generally a very forgiving person, but I just cant seem to find it now.

Is it normal to feel this way? I feel like all the love I had for her is gone and maybe I am the one who is being difficult. Is this the "nice guy" in me feeling this way?:scratchhead:


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

From the minute you said, "Ok" - she was expecting a long litany of crap so she could tie into you.

You didn't give it to her.

You shouldn't.

Don't make the call on this until you see if she is capable of respecting you.

Just from what you've written, I think you're in for a pleasant surprise.

But DO NOT look for it. And, for God's sake, DO NOT ASK FOR IT.

Just be your own man.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You've spent how many years, swallowing your own feelings, in an attempt to figure out how to get her to stop railing at you. And it didn't work; you just made her feel more entitled. You created a monster. And the only real effect is that you spent all those years hiding from yourself. Not allowing yourself to FEEL.

Now that you have had a breather and see what life is like without having to stuff your feelings, when she comes back and it starts up again, you can see it all for what it is: manipulation.

Only now, you know you don't have to accept it. Nor should you.

If you DO end up together, it will have to be on a level of respect for you. You will teach her that respect by refusing to give in to her crap, by doing the 180, by refusing to engage when she's itching for a fight. 

It's like car shopping. The dealership can jump around like a clown on a pogo stick, but YOU have all the power - to just walk away and shop elsewhere.

Use that power.

And, in case it hasn't been said yet, do not EVER move out of the house. If she wants away from you, SHE can move; but once the man moves, he usually finds it hard legally to get back what he 'abandoned.'


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Thanks Turnera,

That put it in a very nice perspective!!

Pogo stick! ..Love it!


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Ok, the 180 thing seems to be working I guess, She has been a bit more responsive and realizes that she has a lot of issues that she needs to deal with as well.

She keeps sending me emails and chatting with me about different things to do with the marriage. How she feels about things and things that she thinks I could improve in the marriage. 
My problem with the list she sent about things I could improve, 
to me,it was all the basic things that everyone has, things like money( she is tooooo worried about money, when I make a comfortable income),helping with household chores( I work full time, previously she didn't), me watching too much TV( TV is kind of my escape from all of the things going on, this is changing now though, have started working out again instead).... all of the small everyday things. 
She did not point out any major relationship affecting things, am I to assume by this that there are not any on her side or she does not want to tell me?

I have told her previously that there are some very big behavioral issues that I have a problem with and that this is why we are where we are now. Namely the apparent refusal to really work out the issues we have , the major problem with the stepchild etc. But she does not seem to be touching on any of these.Her take on the stepchild thing is that we need to work out all of the other issues we have before we work on that one. My stand is, there is nothing to work out if we don't correct this first. 

Anyway, regardless of this,

I have told her that right now, I do not want to talk about "US"
I want to concentrate on "ME" I will talk about us when I am good and ready to deal with it from a different place as before.

With all that has happened in the relationship, I want to be a bit selfish and concentrate on finding myself.

Is this too much?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Not at all. Women want men they can respect. Who respect themselves.

Continue to point out, any time she tells you what is wrong with YOU, that you have much BIGGER issues with what's wrong with HER and until she addresses that, you're not interested. You're moving on.


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

AWE - it's good to see your improvements to yourself over this thread. Keep the question, "What will make me happy?" in the forefront of your mind. And, this may not be easy to answer. I've been through some of this recently, and I can assure you, the results are well worth it. You are seeing some of the rewards for your changes already.



At wits end said:


> How she feels about things and things that she thinks I could improve in the marriage.


Not that it should matter to you, but she should be focused on what SHE could do to improve HERSELF in the marriage. She cannot change you and you cannot change her - nor should you want to.



At wits end said:


> She did not point out any major relationship affecting things, am I to assume by this that there are not any on her side *from what you 've posted, she sounds pretty perfect - you're the problem - according to her* or she does not want to tell me? *both?*
> 
> My stand is, there is nothing to work out if we don't correct this first. *Well yeah - these are your kids, right?*
> 
> ...


No friggin way!

Good luck - keep it up!


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Thank you so much for your encouragement. One question
When you say I have to drop the selfish attitude when it comes to my wife, what do you mean?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

To add to my continued confusion, this is what I receive on skype this morning. I have not replied because I REALLY dont know what to say to this!??

Just had a revelation and want to share wit u
I realise I am enjoying myself in XXX partly cos I m finally working
: The other part is also I haven't had such freedom since we got married
: Freedom in a sense of responsibility
: No need to plan what to eat
: Worry about what's best to buy
: The small things that we do daily
: Now I just go and do things for myself wihich is nice
: Of course I still worry bout other things like retirement plan etc
: But I don't worry anymore bout d daily small things or it cud be d resposibility
: As I am living on my own
: of course it's not great as there r moments where I am lonely too
: i mean not perfect
: when I am lonely I call and meet for coffee, I can do sthing about it
: with frens


Am I losing my mind or is this rather ridiculous, I mean, there are major issues affecting our marriage and she is coming up with S#%T like this??

I feel like writing back something like....really happy to hear you are enjoying your self so much, good for you! Guess its good to be away from the old ball and chain of being married and having kids!

Wow, and I thought I was the one who was supposed to be being selfish.

Or maybe I should write this.

I had a revelation too!

I realized how much happier it is around her lately, the kids are much happier, they are having fun together, oldest is not hiding in her room all the time she is out doing things, there is no more crunching under everyones feet when they walk around the house. Etc, etc , etc.

I think I need some prescription drugs....Doc, you got a min!!!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Most women go through this feeling of being free once they don't have to be 'on' for the husband and the family. No matter how evolved men think they are, they still nearly always expect the woman to keep the house/family/clothes/food running.

Don't answer. You'll never win.


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## chouchangla (Nov 7, 2011)

She has lost respect for you because you are a Nice Guy.


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Well , here is the latest in my continuing saga , wife started in on me again this morning because she did not like the way I simply answered no to a question she had. I was busy when she asked me on Whatsapp and just answered with a simple no. She started saying that I had a major problem with her because I was answering very curtly! 
I stated the reason for the simple answer but it was not good enough and she continued to message me for another ten minutes about how I was not trying etc etc. all of which I did not answer. Well, don't know why, but later in the morning I had a very major anxiety attack to the point of having to leave work and go to the clinic to see a doctor. This is the first time in my life I have had something like this happen to me, even broke down explaining to the nurse why I was there. Anyway, doctor gave me something for the anxiety and refered me to a phycoligist. I will be going to see him in a couple of days. I think it will do me some good. Seems I have been trying so hard to stick to this 180 thing and the reactions from my wife have been nothing but anger and complaints about my behaviour . I guess this is too be expected. 
Just does not seem to be getting any easier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

At wits end said:


> Well , here is the latest in my continuing saga , wife started in on me again this morning because she did not like the way I simply answered no to a question she had. I was busy when she asked me on Whatsapp and just answered with a simple no. She started saying that I had a major problem with her because I was answering very curtly!
> I stated the reason for the simple answer but it was not good enough and she continued to message me for another ten minutes about how I was not trying etc etc. all of which I did not answer. Well, don't know why, but later in the morning I had a very major anxiety attack to the point of having to leave work and go to the clinic to see a doctor. This is the first time in my life I have had something like this happen to me, even broke down explaining to the nurse why I was there. Anyway, doctor gave me something for the anxiety and refered me to a phycoligist. I will be going to see him in a couple of days. I think it will do me some good. Seems I have been trying so hard to stick to this 180 thing and the reactions from my wife have been nothing but anger and complaints about my behaviour . I guess this is too be expected.
> Just does not seem to be getting any easier.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's driven the relationship for a LONG time. You've just taken the wheel, and she's feeling a loss of control.

That's the reason she sent the "I'm doing fine without you" list and the reason she's pushing back.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Expect more of it, EXPECT IT. Then when you see it smile to yourself and realize that you ARE getting some control back and she IS noticing it. Mission accomplished thus far and on track. Then you won't feel so anxious about it as it will just reaffirm that your holding on to your N.U.T.S. again.

Don't expect for one minute she's going to embrace, like, and rejoice in the change from the get go. She is going to fight it at first and resit, but in the process her respect will start to grow. Bit by bit, until one day she will be worried about what YOU might think and she will care how you might view something.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Things will probably get worse before they get better..... she might even try the shock and awe approach. DON'T react. By staying calm and appearing unnerved you disarm her. If she talks reasonabily, calmly, and respectfully then do your damnest to take her seriously and action her concerns. THAT is the behaviour you want, so respond to IT.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yep, it's all about control. You're doing fine. And remember, LESS IS MORE. The less you respond, the more in control you remain. 

Learn to hang up on her if she yells at you. Or leave the room. Or don't respond to an angry text. Ok? Focus on that.

I'm glad you're going to a psychologist; it will help you immensely.


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Ok, the medication seems to be working well, dont feel like I want to scream,cry, yell etc. I realize that all of these feelings are coming from the "nice guy" inside of me. 

I also have realized that this whole process is like 2 battles at the same time. One with your own feelings and the other with the SO. I am having so many problems with my own feelings other than the nice guy battle as well. 

I seem to be fighting for something that I am not even sure I want. IE: My wife and the marriage, at this point, I am not even sure I want to be with her anymore. I dont feel that much love for her anymore, not like I used too. I dont find her attractive anymore, but I am the type that the most beautiful women in the world could turn ugly real fast with the wrong attitude.

Maybe this is because of all the pain I have that I relate to her,but I cannot put all the blame on her because I "LET" it happen. So where is this line, how much blame do I take myself and how much do you put on the other person? Or ,do you just forget all this and move past it?

I guess I just have to keep sight of the fact that all of this is for me, myself and I and if it happens that the marriage and my feelings about it come out on the right side , it is an added bonus. And if they dont,then at least I have my self respect back in the end.

I am actually looking forward to talking with someone tomorrow, I realized that I am keeping too much inside and i need to release it. I thought i would put up a strong front for the kids and all ,but when it gets to the point where you are snapping at them for nothing, its not right.

Again, thanks to all for your supportive comments, they mean more than words can say.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think you need to tell her the truth - that you are falling out of love with her because of HER Love Busters to you. Only good can come out of her knowing that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

fwiw, I married a man who has amazing attributes. Honest, loyal, giving...but incredibly damaged from childhood: negative BEYOND extreme. That negativity - those Love Busters - have taken their toll on me over 30+ years so much that I have a hard time even wanting to be in the same house as him, let alone be emotionally close. I could easily walk away from him if circumstances were right.

That said, MY inexperience, my lack of understanding of how I should have stood up to him over the years, and my guilt over not KNOWING what I should have done to change things, keeps me in my place. 

My point: Don't let your guilt keep you doing something you don't want to do. But keep your eyes open as to what you DESERVE in a marriage.


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Well, had the first sitdown with the shrink and let it all out, well part of it anyway. Told him about the advice I had gotten here and the fact that I was doing the 180 approach . Mentioned how I had managed to change some of my behaviors and had noticed a change , but that I am still not ready to discuss anything with W about future untill I get my head on straight again. He said that he was impressed with my attitude towards the whole thing and said I am on the right track!
My challenge now is to stay strong with the 180 and not fall back on the nice guy thinking whenever I get the reactions from my wife about my different behavior.
He gave some good advice if the feeling are there, write the response in an email and say everything you want,,,just don't send it! Helps to get the feelings out but not in the open. To much added stress to just go cold turkey!

Guess its going to be a long and anxiety filled road.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Once you truly take the active step of focusing on yourself and how you got to where you are in your relationship, you have the ability to shift your focus from being determined to save the relationship, to deciding if the relationship is something you want to save.

It is easy to overlook, and very few people making the journey understand that is the moment where they truly begin to take their life back. The anxiety around 'preserving' the relationship goes away ... because you no longer define who you are, or your value, by the relationship or your partner.

It's huge. And you will know it when you get there. Your relationship and partner then becomes something you _choose_, not something you _need_ in terms of personal satisfaction.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

At wits end said:


> Well, had the first sitdown with the shrink and let it all out, well part of it anyway. Told him about the advice I had gotten here and the fact that I was doing the 180 approach . Mentioned how I had managed to change some of my behaviors and had noticed a change , but that I am still not ready to discuss anything with W about future untill I get my head on straight again. He said that he was impressed with my attitude towards the whole thing and said I am on the right track!
> My challenge now is to stay strong with the 180 and not fall back on the nice guy thinking whenever I get the reactions from my wife about my different behavior.
> He gave some good advice if the feeling are there, write the response in an email and say everything you want,,,just don't send it! Helps to get the feelings out but not in the open. To much added stress to just go cold turkey!
> 
> ...



See who needs a Psychologist?... it's all right here. Save your money. Your wife is sick not you.

Interesting about the e-mail unsent I do that all the time and it does help focus thoughts... I actually let her have one recently that I think will make a big difference. Her reality check so to speak at year two into this junk.

We all know what should be done... it's getting the other spouse to see it our way. That's the hard part.

Remember with each action or non-action she does you have an equal re-action.

For instance my wife has decided to go to a bar with other moms this Friday night for a "girls night out" so I'm going to tell her to have fun (call me if she needs a ride home) and then grab our two sons and us men will go have dinner at a new fun restaurant in town and take them midnight bowling or laser tag and rent a movie to watch when we get home and make popcorn and get movie candy. Every time she plans time away from me and our family I will respond in turn building a more solid fun relationship with my sons, they'll talk about it definitely to her thus showing her she just missed out on really fun family times. Eventually she'll get the message and see that every time she plans time away she misses out at home on family fun. Our wives aren't thinking about us or family as much as they used to... time to refocus her thoughts. They think they are "independent" they aren't anymore ...it's up to us to show them that.

Learn to play the game. My wife can choose to join us when she's ready and I decide to invite her in on the fun (but not while she is remaining distant). She's big on wanting to be well liked by our sons...it'll upset her she missed out but what can she actually say...NOTHING. She will feel guilty for missing out. Too bad... her choices. My reactions.

Actually this part is fun...the psychological warfare part. She has no idea how much I'm in her head.


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> See who needs a Psychologist?... it's all right here. Save your money. Your wife is sick not you.
> 
> Interesting about the e-mail unsent I do that all the time and it does help focus thoughts... I actually let her have one recently that I think will make a big difference. Her reality check so to speak at year two into this junk.
> 
> ...



I have actually done something like this as well.

My 9 yr old is supposed to go back and spend some time with mom during the school break. She is going to go back on the 20th and come back here on the 2nd of Jan. Anyway, my wife has said that she has plans to take her somewhere for the holidays. She also stated that I was welcome to join them there if I wanted. The only problem with this is that my oldest daughter would not be comfortable with this, and deep inside I know that my wife knows this.

So in a sense she has already made plans for Xmas regardless of whether we are together as a family or not.

So, I decided that I was going to go on a trip for Xmas with my older daughter. I have booked 9 days in Bali over Xmas.

Now, I have not told my wife this yet, I know she is going to be super pissed because we have always talked about going to Bali together, without the kids! 

I do feel kind of bad about this because it might have been an opportunity for us to work out some of our problems,but at the same time, I feel that with all that has happened , I need to spend some quality time with my oldest daughter.

Was I wrong to do this? I cant help feeling that I have made a big mistake and that this will make things worse between us.

I just know that she is going to see this as some sort of payback thing. And in a way, it might be that it is a subconscious reaction on my part because of my anger and resentment.

The thought had crossed my mind about doing the same thing as her and telling her that she can join us if she wants , but I know my oldest will hate me forever if I came back and told that now my wife was joining us.

This is so ridiculous that I should even be in a position that I would have to think about it!!!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Why would you feel bad? This woman ripped your heart out and stomped on it, probably laughing as she did so. 

And who cares what she thinks?

Tell her today.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And I would make a point of telling her you _would_ invite her but your daughter's well being is too important to do that.

Stop being such a Nice Guy. That disgusts women. If anything, going off without her will make you look more attractive.


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

For what it's worth, my comments in bold.



At wits end said:


> The only problem with this is that my oldest daughter would not be comfortable with this, and deep inside I know that my wife knows this. *Yep - probably - and knows that it will mess with your head*
> 
> Now, I have not told my wife this yet, I know she is going to be super pissed because we have always talked about going to Bali together, without the kids! *Bravo for you! Too bad for her*
> 
> ...


Good luck.


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Ok,
So heres where the advice given get confusing, one says tell the other says don't. 

I am leaning towards the don't, reason being is she did not seem to have much trouble telling me that this is what she was planning with the little one. Its not like she sat down with me and said" Look, I was thinking about doing this with D2 while she is here with me, do you think we might be able to do this as a family?" She is not thinking in family mode, she is thinking in her and D2 mode, so why should I think in family mode, right?

I know the trip is going to come up sometime because I cant ask my little one not to tell her, this would not be fair to her.

If she finds out and asks me about it, I think I will just tell her that I think it would be better for us to spend this Xmas on separate trips as I have been a crappy father to my oldest by allowing what has happened and I feel I need to spend some father daughter time alone to try and rebuild this relationship first.

Her answer will more than likely be, "Why do you have to go to Bali to do this? We had always talked about going to Bali together.

Well, I deserve a break and I have always wanted to go to Bali and this seemed like a great opportunity to kill 2 birds with one stone! And, since you already had plans with D2 and you know it would not be comfortable doing anything together with the 4 of us. It just made sense. 
What, I am just supposed to not do something I have always wanted to do because we cant get along right now? 

Think maybe I am getting the hang of this after all!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

At wits end said:


> I know the trip is going to come up sometime because I cant ask my little one not to tell her, this would not be fair to her.
> 
> If she finds out and asks me about it, I think I will just tell her that I think it would be better for us to spend this Xmas on separate trips as I have been a crappy father to my oldest by allowing what has happened and I feel I need to spend some father daughter time alone to try and rebuild this relationship first.
> 
> Her answer will more than likely be, "Why do you have to go to Bali to do this? We had always talked about going to Bali together.


It's going to come up sometime so why not cover it now?

Don't waste your time legitimizing your choices.

If she asks why, just say 'why did YOU book something with other child?'

And walk away.


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Oh well, the cats out of the bag!!

She asked me to do something for her and suggested I do it over Xmas. Well I had to tell her that I had plans to go away for Xmas so would not be able to do it. So of course she asked what were the plans. 
I told her Bali and she lost it as I knew she would. I told her I did it it because she told me that she was planning on taking D2 somewhere over Xmas so I decided to do something for myself and D1. She then said she is not going anywhere. So I said well, you should not have told me you were.
She then went on to say "how could you do this, you know Bali was supposed to be for US" "You always said we could not afford it and now you go and do this" We are supposed to be working on "US" and you go and do something like this?

I did not want to get into it anymore so I stopped the conversation.

I then wrote an email to explain that the reason I did not want to go to Bali with her and told her this was because I did not see the point of going on a trip with her when we are not getting along so well. It does not make sense to me to go on a trip to discuss the problems we have if we can't solve them at home first. 

Would be a waste of time to go to Bali and fight right. Besides, even if we "got along" as couples usually do when they are away from home( I think everyone knows what I mean!) it would probably just be back to business as usual when we got home. 

Always happens this way, we took a short trip over the border a few months back with D2 as D1 was at a camp with her friends...was all great until we got back home. And this is one of the things that made me start on this journey, I saw how much she enjoyed it with the 3 of us only and as soon we back to 4 she went right back to the way she usually is.

This was one of the things that really opened my eyes and made me take a long hard look at things.


Anyway, she asked if we could talk about it tonight to which I replied I did not think it was a good idea and would probably end up in another fight. So this pi**ed her off even more.

She has not read the email yet because she says she is too upset to read anything right now.
She is too hurt and pi**ed to even talk to me.

I then replied that she has a lot of nerve telling me that she is hurt and pi**ed at me after the things she has done.(probably should not have done this last one)

Anyway, my feeling about her being upset right now is ....Boo Hoo, poor thing.


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

At wits end said:


> She asked me to do something for her and suggested I do it over Xmas. Well I had to tell her that I had plans to go away for Xmas so would not be able to do it. So of course she asked what were the plans. *Remeber, just because she asked does not obligate you to reply. The less she knows the better. In terms of taking care of kids/household, she needs to know you'll be away for XX days. That's it.*
> 
> I told her I did it it because she told me that she was planning on taking D2 somewhere over Xmas so I decided to do something for myself and D1. *Next time, you did it because you wanted to. Do not link your actions to hers.*
> 
> ...


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Jayde,

[ I saw how much she enjoyed it with the 3 of us only and as soon we back to 4 she went right back to the way she usually is. So, it's one daughter that makes things bad. I think I missed something.]

Please check my profile and over posting for stepmother really dislikes my daughter , this will fill you in on that situatio
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

At wits end said:


> I then replied that she has a lot of nerve telling me that she is hurt and pi**ed at me after the things she has done.(probably should not have done this last one)


This is EXACTLY what you should have done.

Seems to me she has skated all her life not suffering consequences. Consequences TEACH us things. 

Time for her to start learning.


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Well , seems whatever I am doing is working , cause I got an entirely different email from her actually apologizing for everything that she has done and saying that she is dedicated to the marriage and making a change. I must say , after the initial reaction about the trip , it was quite a surprise .
This seems like progress but I think I will have to wait it out a bit more before I decide to jump into any thing again
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

Glad for the progress but proceed with caution.


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

jayde said:


> Glad for the progress but proceed with caution.


Thanks Jayde, my feelings exactly!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

At wits end said:


> Well , seems whatever I am doing is working , cause I got an entirely different email from her actually apologizing for everything that she has done and saying that she is dedicated to the marriage and making a change. I must say , after the initial reaction about the trip , it was quite a surprise .
> This seems like progress but I think I will have to wait it out a bit more before I decide to jump into any thing again
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a direct response to you manning up. It's the ONE thing that women recognize on a subconscious level.


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Ok ,

I got a question for all of you. It is going to take a bit of explanation first, so bear with me.

I mentioned that my wife has gone back to her home town which is about a 6-7 hr drive away. Ok, so she bought a car here because it is much cheaper to get here than it is to get there. 
Thing is, this was all done just recently while she was back there and had a friend arrange the sale and everything here. I helped her out with the bank transfer and the all of the other things and I now have possession of the car. So the dilemma is how to get the car to where she is.

She has said that she was going to fly over and pick it up and drive it back. Well, I am not trying to sound like one of those"women cant drive" kind of guys here, please dont take me the wrong way. 
It is quite a long and confusing drive back to where she is and she has never driven this car before. Bottom line is, I guess I am a bit worried about here making the drive in an unfamiliar car.

Now given the situation with her recent awakening and realizations and efforts on her part, I guess it has softened my resolve a bit to the point of thinking maybe the "manly" thing to do would be to offer to drive the car over for her and she would pay for my flight back.

What I need to know from you is , does this seem like my 'Nice Guy" coming out again or is it something I should handle as a man.After all...we are still married and I dont think I have to be a complete ass about it and say its your problem, deal with it.

Just would like to get your opinions on this.


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## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

Giving up an entire day to bring her car to her is a nice-guy action.

Who made the choice to go back to her home town? Who made the choice to buy the car in your town?

How much value does a day of your life have to you?

Would doing this for her make your wife value a day of your time more than she does now? Would it make her respect you more? 

It's admirable that you worry about her making the drive. However, she won't see it as being strong. She'll see it as you trying to win her back. _"I've got him so well trained that he jumps even when I don't ask."_


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

OOE said:


> Giving up an entire day to bring her car to her is a nice-guy action.
> 
> Who made the choice to go back to her home town?
> 
> ...


*Actually she has asked me, and I initially told her no, but after considering everything, I told her I would see if maybe I could work it out, but there is no promises.*


I realize without the lack of some information it is hard to make a recommendation. Thank you OOE for your contribution.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

She decided to leave you, right? Let her feel the weight of her decisions. Pick her up at the airport. That is all.


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

I have to agree with OOE. Another way to think of it might be - is this truly a caring and nurturing act, or could she just as easily pay someone else to do this with the exact same results? 

You mentioned that she is the one trying to win you back. Give her some space to show how hard she's trying. It seems you made some progress with taking control of things, don't let it go. MAybe part of this is letting her grow up a bit as well - and take responsibility for making the 7 hour drive.


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

HELP!!! I AM LOSING IT AGAIN!!

I was doing so well and I slipped back again, I started taking to heart the things she was saying about realizing what she had done and the the things she needs to change. 

I let myself get weak again, why cant I stay strong? 
I started to think that maybe there was light at the end of the tunnel and that maybe we could reconcile things. 
All I did was mention to D1 yesterday that there was a remote possibility in the not so near future that things may work out. The look on her face was of total contempt for even suggesting the idea.

I am so worried that I will cause her more pain if I even consider any reconciliation with my wife. She has been through so much unnecessary hurt already. And every time I see this kind of reaction from her it increases my resentment for my wife even more.

I talk with a good friend who has been through something like this already and she tells me that "You know what you need to do, you know the answer already" But, I still cant seem to make the decision to throw away 11 years together. 

Is there really any chance of having a family again with out someone getting hurt?

I really dont know what to think anymore.


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## kevint (Mar 14, 2009)

Your wife or your daughter? That's the question you need to answer. This lady has left behind a mentally and emotionally abused child. I think you should concentrate on your daughter and let the woman figure out her own issues. 11 years is a long time,but a reconciliation has the potential to blow up in your face. Your responsibility is to love and protect your daughter. You need to let her know that she has that no matter what. That means keeping that woman out your life and her life.


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

kevint said:


> Your wife or your daughter? That's the question you need to answer. This lady has left behind a mentally and emotionally abused child. I think you should concentrate on your daughter and let the woman figure out her own issues. 11 years is a long time,but a reconciliation has the potential to blow up in your face. Your responsibility is to love and protect your daughter. You need to let her know that she has that no matter what. That means keeping that woman out your life and her life.


I think Kevint said it all. It's not like your wife has been a total gem throughout much of your story. And your D needs you, really. If your wife can sort her issues and become a positive force in your life - AND not a negative one in your D's that's one thing. But this doesn't seem to be the case. 

Keep strong and don't let your guard down. Keeping your guard up is not a bad thing. . . it's the right thing to do.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Maybe it's just me, but I would NEVER - EVER - choose another adult over the welfare of my child. I would sacrifice everything to fix what I could for my child.


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

jayde said:


> I think Kevint said it all. It's not like your wife has been a total gem throughout much of your story. And your D needs you, really. If your wife can sort her issues and become a positive force in your life - AND not a negative one in your D's that's one thing. But this doesn't seem to be the case.
> 
> Keep strong and don't let your guard down. Keeping your guard up is not a bad thing. . . it's the right thing to do.





turnera said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I would NEVER - EVER - choose another adult over the welfare of my child. I would sacrifice everything to fix what I could for my child.


Wow, had a BAD day yesterday! Back on track today! 

Thanks for the the support.

My youngest has gone back to be with mom for a while and I guess I let missing here so much get the better of me. I knew it was going to happen,but I guess I was not ready for it actually happening. I miss her so much already! 
I need to accept the fact that this is going to be the way it is, I cant be selfish and expect her to just live with me all the time.

Funny thing though, she really did not want to go and has expressed several times that she really does not want to live there, she wants to stay here.
Dont know if there is something deeper behind this or she just likes it here more with school and her friends. 

Like suggested, I really need to take this time to concentrate on my oldest and try and make good on some of the damage that has been done. I really hope this trip is going to bring us closer. She was my rock during my first divorce and I owe her so much.


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

At wits end said:


> Wow, had a BAD day yesterday! Back on track today! *Glad to hear it.*
> 
> She was my rock during my first divorce and I owe her so much.


Just be careful about leaning on her. She's your kid . . .not your therapist, not your best friend. You should be leaning on close friends, relatives, professional adults to help you through this. She's going through plenty on her own just being a kid and try to figure things out without having to help Dad along too. You 'owe' her to be her father.


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

jayde said:


> Just be careful about leaning on her. She's your kid . . .not your therapist, not your best friend. You should be leaning on close friends, relatives, professional adults to help you through this. She's going through plenty on her own just being a kid and try to figure things out without having to help Dad along too. You 'owe' her to be her father.


Jayde, 

Yes, I do realize this, I am just trying to reconnect with her now. Giving her her own space to do things when she is comfortable.
I will not lean on her for help as she has enough to deal with already.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## At wits end (Aug 10, 2011)

Hello all, 

Well I am back, have had a rough couple of weeks personally. Like I said before, I had a hard time with my little one going back and things with the wife were going as good as usual and I have discovered some other things about myself so have been rather busy.
As usual, I was browsing the posts a while back and some of the things that people were saying about testosterone kind of caught my eye. I did some research online and could relate to most of the symptoms that were being described. 
So, as I was leaving one of my counseling sessions a couple of weeks ago, I decided to go to outpatient and have a blood-test done. Needless to say I was met with some funny looks when I asked to have a testosterone test done, but after some convincing I managed to get it. For those not in the know, I am in Asia.
A couple of hours later the clinic called back and told me that my levels are very low!!! 
Using the scale they go by here, which must be in metric as it does not relate to what is online. The range is from 2.5 on the low side to 8.0 on the high side, with average somewhere between 5.0 - 7.0.
Well my levels were at 1.56! 
So ,I proceeded to schedule an appointment with a Urologist. 

So the first question he asks me is "why did you decide to get a testosterone test done? I told him because of things I had read online. He then goes through a list of symptoms and asks if I have any of them to which I reply yes to all of the above. He then tells me that my suspicions were correct and that I would appear to be experiencing Andropause.

It is so nice to know why I have been feeling the way I do! I thought all of the extreme mood swings and depression and everything else was just due to all the stress of dealing with my wife. Now I know that it was actually something that can be treated and there is hope. 
Its funny, coming to a breaking point in my marriage where I finally said enough is enough,finding this sight and NMMNG, It has opened my eyes so much! I was putting myself so far down the priority list that I never would have even thought about getting this test before or even done the research.

I am so very thankful that I found this sight!

I am currently waiting for another blood-test and another appointment with the doctor to get a comparison sample. The reason I have to wait is they dont even have the hormone replacements here! The doc asked me to wait so he could find out what is available and order it in!

I am going a bit crazy waiting for this to happen as I am still experiencing some pretty intense mood swings and feelings of depression, but at least I know there is something that can be done so I can deal with things better.

Wow, when it rains, it pours! 

Just keeping my eye on that trip to Bali and a much needed rest!

Just keep imagining getting the hormone replacement shot just before going to Bali, Testosterone levels up, sitting around the pool, good looking girls in bikinis....thats going to be a test for self control if I ever had one!!:rofl::rofl:
JK of course!


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Body chemistry is a funny thing. There are many reasons why it could be low, and it could be temporary. I once had a similar experience. I quit smoking and was going through withdrawls, AND was having extreme relationship duress with my wife. Things started going downhill until I started have sexual anxiety and peformance anxiety and finally E.D.

I was tested and tested very low. I decided to wait it out, get finished quitting smoking and get my self to a stable place and then start experiment with options.

Once I got through the stress, I was feeling better and tested again. My testosterone was now in the normal range again.

The urologist explained it that stress really is a body killer. And cortisone and other stress hormones can be produced at the expense of testosterone. And in my case he suspencts the combination of both physical stress on the body, and emotional stress of the relationship all at the same time just overloaded my system and testosterone plummeted.

My point is is simply, consider other possible explanations as well as simply immediately treating the symptoms.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That is just amazing news! I'm so happy for you.


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