# "Toxic Commitment" When staying causes more harm than leaving



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

. 

One of the things I have noticed here is something that I'm going to call "Toxic Commitment."

In a nutshell, it is holding on to a person or a ceremonial vow or to marriage contract, despite the pain and anguish and harm that it is causing. 

Every day we see people here that are being abused, some times outright violently, cheated on and rejected for all love and affection in marriage..... and yet they refuse to consider getting out of the situation. 

Some seek advice on how to find counseling or therapy. Others seem to look for a magic phrase or incantation that will transform their spouse into a loving, faithful, sexually responsive partner that talks to them and is good with the kids. 

When they use the phrase "divorce is not an option", people advise them to go to the gym, lose weight, dress better and be more assertive. 

When the advise of leaving the abusive or cheating or sexually unresponsive spouse is given; some site the expense of divorce or the perceived harm to children etc but many others site that they took vows or that they take marriage "seriously" (as if they could save themselves if only they didn't take it seriously) and some of course will say that their religion will not allow it. 


Decades ago, before Al Gore invented the internet, the closest thing to an advice forum was a couple syndicated newspaper colums called "Ann Landers" and Dear Abby." Both of those columns were written by two wised old grandmothers who weren't afraid to tell it like it is. This was also before political correctness was a thing. 


In both of those columns peple would write in about terrible abuse or neglect or chronic adultery or irreconcilable incompatibility - and both would respond with one simple phrase ….."would you be better off with him/her or would you be better off without him/her?"


That is sage and timeless advice whether it is 1980 or 2018


I for the life of me cannot see how anyone can be better off with the abuse, infidelity, maltreatment, neglect and despair that we see here. Yet a good number of these people tenatiously cling on to a promise they made or a contract they signed 10,15, 20, 30+ years ago. And wasn't that contract signed under the conditions that the other person would also uphold their end of the deal and treat the other person kindly????


My thoughts on this are that while commitment and fidelity upholding one's promises are usually honorable and positive things, there is a line where it becomes toxic and detrimental. There is a point where it causes harm and inflicts more harm and damage than good. 

And there comes a poing where it is simply dumb. 

And there comes another point where if you are taking it, you are now part of the problem. 

I'm going to start calling that "Toxic Commitment." When someone gets to a point that they are being chronically harmed and there is no end in sight and they refuse to extract themselves from that harmful situation due to a promise they made decades earlier under completely different conditions and behaviors by the other party, then it is on them and they are failing to take the proper measures to protect their own wellbeing. 


It is toxic and a detriment to all involved. That is not chivalrous. That is not honorable. That is not strong. It is not "for the children." It is part of the problem and part of the disease. It is a progressive, pathological process. 


That's my soapbox for the day, but what say you? Do you think there is a point that keeping a promise or a commitment becomes toxic and detrimental or do you think that a vow should forever be upheld even when a whole family is spiraling into a smoking hole in the ground?

And if there is a point of toxicity, what is that point?


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Maybe not toxic, but telling: When I filed for divorce after staying WAY TOO LONG, his first words were, "But who is going to take care of Mom in her old age?"


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

As long as you believe that sometimes it's a good thing to (insert ANY normally prescribed action here).

What you are proposing is moral relativism. A very popular idea these days. Mostly you are just looking for a way to justify blame heaping. Which I guess is OK under the Right circumstances


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

After a certain point, I see a bad marriage like people who complain about being overweight while eating donuts. If you are not going to start eating healthy or exercising, that is a valid choice, but stop griping about how all your pants are too tight. You chose this.

Staying in a horrible marriage and allowing your children to see a horribly warped version that they can replay in their own marriages is a personal choice. But if you are going to stay, then deal with it and stop griping. 

It's not that I am not sympathetic. It's that it's useless. There will be no changes or comfort. So it's a waste of time.

That isn't moral relativism. That is life. And if one really is staying because of some honorable belief in an absolute, then one should know that constantly whining about it defeats the purpose.


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## sa58 (Feb 26, 2018)

To many people stay and hope things will change.
They usually never do. The sad part is when people
stay and then become their toxic partner's enabler,
by staying and putting up with crap.
.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

sunsetmist said:


> Maybe not toxic, but telling: When I filed for divorce after staying WAY TOO LONG, his first words were, "But who is going to take care of Mom in her old age?"


My goodness!


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## FaithfulHusband (Jan 20, 2018)

Lots of people find it impossible emotionally to be alone. That's why staying in a harmful relationship is a preference for them over leaving it.


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## FaithfulHusband (Jan 20, 2018)

Also, research has shown that people will stay in a troubled relationship if they simply possess the belief that it can or will change. In other words, if they have hope.

When hope is gone, however, that's when things typically end. Unless of course a person finds it impossible to be alone, which is independent of the above.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I do admire those who are wiling to work on their marriage if things aren't as they had hoped. Far too many think its ok to leave for what I consider the more minor reasons. 
However if there is serious abuse of the spouse and/or children or cheating(especially if its been more than once), serious drug taking etc, then I cant understand why people stay. I will never ever understand why anyone will stay with a partner who hits them, especially if they have children who are in danger. Nor will I understand why anyone could trust a husband or wife who has cheated. 

I think a lot of is it fear of being alone, not wanting to have to live on less money, losing the married status,worrying about what others will think etc etc. 
.


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## cashcratebob (Jan 10, 2018)

When I try to project into the worst case scenario, which would be my wife cheating on me, the thing that comes to mind immediately can be boiled down to fear of change. A simple answer that doesn't take into account all the range of feelings in that situation, but for me, fear of change is up there. I can imagine that that would make it difficult to be decisive in that situation if someone has the same hang-up. 

And no, a vow should not be forever upheld. The difference is what do you consider to be broken vow actions. For me, a legit EA and any amount PA. Vows broke. Sexually not responsive...ugh...gets fuzzy for me. 

Of course after reading everything on TAM I'd just assume EA or PA if my wife became suddenly sexually unresponsive so...EA/PA and vows are broke.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Well then OBVIOUSLY, If there are times when staying is toxic, there must be some times when staying is Good. 

But if The OS proposal isn't moral relativism, then it must be a new moral position. I don't see a reason to sign up.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I agree that some people are terrified of being alone. I see them as mired in what-if thinking: What if I never find anyone else? What if I struggle financially? What if I get lonely? Life is full of what-if's. And they can keep us stuck. But sadly, these folks are already basically alone if they remain in an abusive, destructive marriage. I can only speak from my own experience. I left. My life got better. My outlook improved. I started living life on my terms. Once again, I enjoy myself. All the tension is gone. All the worry is gone. And, most importantly, I no longer have to live with abuse. Ever. 

If people want to stay, I say fine. My only gripe comes from the people who post on here endlessly complaining and whining about their partner but make no move to leave. Oftentimes, they fixate and go on and on about the partner's faults, shortcomings, bad behavior ... but they fail to get their focus off their partner and open their eyes to examine their own issues.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> .
> 
> One of the things I have noticed here is something that I'm going to call "Toxic Commitment."
> 
> ...


Many do not know their options and are confused. Some need to talk with a church official. It's not as difficult as they think. 



oldshirt said:


> Decades ago, before Al Gore invented the internet, the closest thing to an advice forum was a couple syndicated newspaper colums called "Ann Landers" and Dear Abby." Both of those columns were written by two wised old grandmothers who weren't afraid to tell it like it is. This was also before political correctness was a thing.
> 
> 
> In both of those columns peple would write in about terrible abuse or neglect or chronic adultery or irreconcilable incompatibility - and both would respond with one simple phrase ….."would you be better off with him/her or would you be better off without him/her?"
> ...


They knew you can't tell folks what to do. Folks have to decide for themselves or they will blame those who suggested things. 



oldshirt said:


> I for the life of me cannot see how anyone can be better off with the abuse, infidelity, maltreatment, neglect and despair that we see here. Yet a good number of these people tenatiously cling on to a promise they made or a contract they signed 10,15, 20, 30+ years ago. And wasn't that contract signed under the conditions that the other person would also uphold their end of the deal and treat the other person kindly????


Yes, and under those conditions, it's likely they would be able to get an annulment. Though, some still have to consider themselves married until the annulment goes through. That means no sex with anyone except the ex. Doesn't take that long to get one. It takes forever in the mind of a lonely spouse. 




oldshirt said:


> My thoughts on this are that while commitment and fidelity upholding one's promises are usually honorable and positive things, there is a line where it becomes toxic and detrimental. There is a point where it causes harm and inflicts more harm and damage than good.
> 
> And there comes a poing where it is simply dumb.
> 
> And there comes another point where if you are taking it, you are now part of the problem.


I agree in many instances. 



oldshirt said:


> I'm going to start calling that "Toxic Commitment." When someone gets to a point that they are being chronically harmed and there is no end in sight and they refuse to extract themselves from that harmful situation due to a promise they made decades earlier under completely different conditions and behaviors by the other party, then it is on them and they are failing to take the proper measures to protect their own wellbeing.


Many have waited too long to act by the time they come here, if they want to work things out. 



oldshirt said:


> It is toxic and a detriment to all involved. That is not chivalrous. That is not honorable. That is not strong. It is not "for the children." It is part of the problem and part of the disease. It is a progressive, pathological process.


Generally true by the time troubled marriages with infidelity get here. 



oldshirt said:


> That's my soapbox for the day, but what say you? Do you think there is a point that keeping a promise or a commitment becomes toxic and detrimental or do you think that a vow should forever be upheld even when a whole family is spiraling into a smoking hole in the ground?
> 
> And if there is a point of toxicity, what is that point?


Since everyone is different, that point will be on a curve. We don't even know who is telling the truth. We hear one side, usually. We commiserate where we can find commonality and empathize when we have been through similar circumstances. 

How does anyone take projection out of their comments? No one does. We all gravitate to threads that intrigue us and post where we think we have insight. How did we get that insight? Mostly through living we are able to empathize. 

Thanks for posting your rant. It was interesting to consider. I don't have the answers, just opinions.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

I've never been afraid of being alone, I've been alone before and was fine with it and am fine with it now. I have always supported myself financially and continue to do so. I have never been religious in any sense of the term.

_None of the above_ factored into my decision to stay in my previous marriage as long as I did. You (the general you) never know what responsibilities others must bear or the whys.

I stayed for a (psychologically) fragile child who would be more harmed by my leaving (divorce) than I would be by staying and, I made a promise to that child's dying mother (my SIL) and meant every word.

Judge if you must ... but know that there are ways to find contentment and survive inside bad marriages and sometimes there are compelling reasons for doing so.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

As mentioned, hope is a very strong motivator for many of us who choose or chose to endure to the very end.

Hope is not a solution to the problem, but a way to be patient for change that is sure to come either through success or failure, but it is an expected change nonetheless.

Anything is possible, no matter how bad the situation, but we definitely create that world (the level of toxicity) around us by balancing where we can the good, the not so good, the bad, or the very bad... it what percentages of the four we are able to live with and what healthy coping comes that holds us to hope.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Imagine a situation where you were happily married, and they your partner had a horrible accident that left the paralyzed and disfigured. Almost anyone would be happier if they left that situation and found a non-broken partner. Is staying in that situation just for the partner's benefit "toxic commitment". 

Now imagine it is a completely mental breakdown that leaves them completely unable to function. 

Or an emotional breakdown that leaves them limited functionality, but but with bizarre breakdowns. 

What if they convert to a religion that holds beliefs that a strongly in conflict with your own.

What if they let themselves go completely, becoming fat, ugly and unhealthy. 


I don't know where the right line is. I don't know how to compare physical, mental, emotional and belief changes. What are the limits on a marriage vow? Or on any solemn oath for that matter? Is a soldiers oath to defend their country made void when the country is run by Nazis?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Getting on your high horse again, @oldshirt? :laugh:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Red Sonja said:


> I've never been afraid of being alone, I've been alone before and was fine with it and am fine with it now. I have always supported myself financially and continue to do so. I have never been religious in any sense of the term.
> 
> _None of the above_ factored into my decision to stay in my previous marriage as long as I did. You (the general you) never know what responsibilities others must bear or the whys.
> 
> ...


There are different degrees of 'bad'. For example when there is physical abuse or sever emotional abuse, that's a bad marriage. And I cannot see anyone having a compelling reason to stay or be able to find contentment.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I've been battling for over 15 years, trying to save my marriage from a sexless death. I have failed. Your partner will do that little bit that is necessary to keep you there. Then you have your family together, your kids, all that you have built. People stay for many reasons and the majority try and solve the problem. My wife always gave me sex. I wasn't happy with the frequency but it was still enough for me not to leave. Now it's gone completely sexless and I'm out (despite what @oldshirt says... :laugh Yes, a total sexless marriage is a deal-breaker for me. But not for everybody, apparently. Was mine a toxic commitment. To a certain extent, yes.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

If you don't leave as soon as you have an issue, you are in a toxic commitment? 

This can be true. It's impossible to group everyone into the same basket. I'm surprised at many who holler about generalizations.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

My personal opinion is that most issues need to be worked on as much as possible before considering divorce. Exceptions to this would be physical abuse, serial cheating, or a long term affair. These are only my personal opinions. I had a truly sexless marriage for over a decade before I finally left. And I tried everything that 1 person could possibly try, so my conscience is clear. However, I sort of roll my eyes at people who say they would leave after a month of X issue. And less that issue is physical abuse or criminal activity Or in Fidelity, you might need to take some time to try to work on it like a grown up. But that is just my personal opinion


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> . When the advise of leaving the abusive or cheating or sexually unresponsive spouse is given; some site the expense of divorce or the perceived harm to children etc but many others site that they took vows or that they take marriage "seriously" (as if they could save themselves if only they didn't take it seriously) and some of course will say that their religion will not allow it.


I think a lot of people want to continue clinging to their cheaters no matter HOW dire the situation is - they'd _*still*_ rather be with their cheater than _not_ be with them. And if conveniently using religion as their excuse to do it works, then that's what they'll use.

Lots of people are willing to settle for *very very little* in order to keep these 'prizes' in their lives at all costs. I see it EVERY SINGLE DAY in various message boards.

Many BS's use all these noble excuses about 'not wanting to hurt the children' or 'divorce isn't an option,' and while that sounds strong and brave and all that, I think for most, it's a bunch of bull**** and the truth is that *they don't want *to let their cheater go.

You see this a lot on infidelity boards. BS's claiming they gave their cheater _"the gift of a 2nd chance"_ or _"the gift of reconciliation"_ as though they were all set to leave but did the cheater a huge _*favor*_ and stayed, giving them another chance. Please. The truth is, they want to hold onto their cheaters no matter HOW ghastly they've been treated and will use any excuse to *do* it. Pride, dignity and self respect pretty much go right out the window when a BS clings to a cheater like grim death, and sadly, they spend the next umpteen years having to spy on their cheaters and a good lot of them just go on to have more D-Days when their 'prize' screws them over again.

No thanks.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I think a lot of people want to continue clinging to their cheaters no matter HOW dire the situation is - they'd _*still*_ rather be with their cheater than _not_ be with them. And if conveniently using religion as their excuse to do it works, then that's what they'll use.
> 
> Lots of people are willing to settle for *very very little* in order to keep these 'prizes' in their lives at all costs. I see it EVERY SINGLE DAY in various message boards.
> 
> ...


Yes we certainly do see that a lot here. 

But that doesn't all come from the BS; the WS often does the same thing but in a more manipulative and nefarious way.

Yes we see the BS fighting to stay together "for the children" and "I took a vow" etc etc.

But we also see the WS using the children and the vows as a weapon to keep the BS hamstrung and to keep them in the marriage and under the same roof so that the BS will watch the kids while they get with the AP and so they don't have to pay child support and alimony. Or so they don't lose their gravy train or move out of the house or have to get a job to support their own selves.

I see just as much toxic commitment on a pro-adultery site (yes there is such a thing) as I do here.

I see WS's that are miserable with their BS and are recalcitrant cheaters, but they won't tear off the Band Aid either because of "the children" and because they don't want to pay the money... And the irony is, they also use the term, "divorce is not an option."

So they remain in the loveless, sexless and even abusive marriages and simply cheat and get it on the side as a long term lifestyle choice.

That IMHO is also a shining example if Toxic Commitment.

Oh sure, they've thrown their commitment to remain faithful out the window, but their commitment to remain in the marriage and keep the kids and BS held hostage in the quagmire despite hooking up with others is firmly entrenched. 

If that's not toxic, I don't know what is.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I feel like the people who come at us here with the "divorce is not an option" bit feel superior because they are willing to stay no matter how awful they have it and how miserable they are. hey look down on those who choose to get out. They don't seem to grasp that if their toxic spouse knows there is no chance of losing them that they will never, ever change. Why should they?? They can continue their destructive ways and their life isn't going to change. Pretty much all these people can do is learn to live in their own little bubble, accepting their mistreatment and maybe learn some coping skills. All the while hoping the toxic one has an epiphany some day. Sorry but if this is your choice then you need to stop complaining about how bad you have it, because YOU are the one enabling your own situation. I think toxic commitment is a very apt title. 

Common saying here on TAM, you have to be willing to lose it to save it.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

3Xnocharm said:


> I feel like the people who come at us here with the "divorce is not an option" bit feel superior because they are willing to stay no matter how awful they have it and how miserable they are. They look down on those who choose to get out.
> 
> They don't seem to grasp that if their toxic spouse knows there is no chance of losing them that they will never, ever change. Why should they?? They can continue their destructive ways and their life isn't going to change. Pretty much all these people can do is learn to live in their own little bubble, accepting their mistreatment and maybe learn some coping skills. All the while hoping the toxic one has an epiphany some day. Sorry but if this is your choice then you need to stop complaining about how bad you have it, because YOU are the one enabling your own situation. I think toxic commitment is a very apt title.
> 
> Common saying here on TAM, you have to be willing to lose it to save it.


I agree with a lot of this. I don't know if they think they are superior or not, but I will tell them in the nicest way that they are stupid. 

I got some advice from a wise man, that in fact started this thread, and he was right. 

I was in a toxic marriage for 26 years, I had legitimate reasons which I could list but some of it was fear. For me it was less fear than most. 

I stayed when the kids were younger 1) because I was stupid, 2) because even though my wife was a drug addict among other things she should pull her S*** together when she had too and I was worried she may have gotten some custody of the children. 

Knowing more about everything after the fact, too long to write out, I was a complete and total chump for staying as long as I did for any reason. 

And I say to anyone in an infidelity, abuse, addiction, sexless, and everything else, that if you have tried a reasonable amount to stay together and it is not working... GET THE F*** OUT, male or female whatever the cost. Your kids will be ok, you will have a chance at happiness. 

Further, while I don't recommend going the way that I went, I do recommend dating around, sowing some more oats and having a blast. 

I am still having a blast, and on the way I met and shared time with some many great women, and finally met my current/last GF and it was all worth it. 

Best woman I have ever been with, and life is just grand...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I think some WS rationalize the cheating by telling themselves that it is better to cheat and get their "needs met" than break up a whole family. It is twisted logic, and I think qualifies as toxic commitment. I'm going to stay, but I'm going to secretly be betraying my spouse the whole time.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> There are different degrees of 'bad'. For example when there is physical abuse or sever emotional abuse, that's a bad marriage. And I cannot see anyone having a compelling reason to stay or be able to find contentment.


How about the emotional abuse a covert narcissist is capable of dishing out on a daily basis? Is that "bad" enough for you? My reasons, which I have stated, don't require the understanding of others ... that was the point of my post.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Red Sonja said:


> How about the emotional abuse a covert narcissist is capable of dishing out on a daily basis? Is that "bad" enough for you? My reasons, which I have stated, don't require the understanding of others ... that was the point of my post.


I think any time there is a pattern of abuse that is unlikely to ever change, it's time to go. I think it would be premature to file the first time someone yells at you in the heat of the moment. But constant snide remarks, belittling, gaslighting, emotional neglect, anger, etc. is absolutely abuse, bruises or no bruises.

Whenever I hear someone who is dismissive of emotional abuse, I assume they are dumber than a box of hair, or they are an emotional abuser who doesn't like having their toes stepped on.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

I can really relate to this thread. I am going through what I am pretty sure is emotional abuse and the anger/rages (in addition to the LD issues). It is the HOPE that it will get better that keeps me there despite us being toxic to each other over the last few years and to the kids. And FEAR - finances, being alone, etc. I would say HOPE is the primary reason, though. There are some days where he is really good to me. The LD stuff is always an issue, but as far as behavior, there are stretches of time where it is very good. I also have a hard time knowing where the line is drawn between legitimate emotional abuse and normal couple arguments/fighting, etc.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I can really relate to this thread. I am going through what I am pretty sure is emotional abuse and the anger/rages (in addition to the LD issues). It is the HOPE that it will get better that keeps me there despite us being toxic to each other over the last few years and to the kids. And FEAR - finances, being alone, etc. I would say HOPE is the primary reason, though. There are some days where he is really good to me. The LD stuff is always an issue, but as far as behavior, there are stretches of time where it is very good. I also have a hard time knowing where the line is drawn between legitimate emotional abuse and normal couple arguments/fighting, etc.


This is classic, and I mean no offense. It is the "frog in boiling water" analogy. Everyone has heard it. 

Here is a story for you: Several years ago my youngest, then about 16-17, said, "You know today was a pretty good day, mom did not do anything crazy". And I said, "Yeah, your are right!" 

But then I thought about it and I said, "Son, how f'ed up is it that we judge good days and bad days by whether or not mom was crazy or not? This is not normal." 

And that is the point, the bad behavior creeps up on you, a little at a time, and you become used to it, and crazy, drunk, or whatever, becomes your new normal. 

And so many of us fall for it...


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

BluesPower said:


> This is classic, and I mean no offense. It is the "frog in boiling water" analogy. Everyone has heard it.
> 
> Here is a story for you: Several years ago my youngest, then about 16-17, said, "You know today was a pretty good day, mom did not do anything crazy". And I said, "Yeah, your are right!"
> 
> ...


Absolutely true ((( ALL of the reading and thought I have put into my situation as of late has been very enlightening. I specifically remember trying to figure out exactly when it all began - and I couldn't pinpoint an exact situation or time, which is because it IS a gradual thing - like the frog in the pot. I need to do something, I know. There's just that little glimmer of hope. I suppose if it is ever extinguished, that will do it for me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Shirt,
Sometimes people wrap fear of change in the cloth of commitment. 

I made vows - sounds better than: I’m afraid of being alone

There are folks who are truly very committed to the marriage and they sometimes seem stuck. 





oldshirt said:


> .
> 
> One of the things I have noticed here is something that I'm going to call "Toxic Commitment."
> 
> ...


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

For the life of me, I simply cannot wrap my head around people who remain in a toxic relationship. However, I also cannot fathom addicts. In both of these cases, it boils down to an individual's bottom; as in, "hitting bottom." Addicts? Some bottoms for them are six feet under. That was my husband's bottom. For some people in abusive relationships, it's when on partner pulls out a gun and blows the other one away.

I come from my own point of view - and bias, I might add - as to what I personally consider bottom. I hit it. And that was all it took. The wonderful thing for me in hitting bottom was I have never, and will never, tolerate abuse of any sort in a relationship again. It is freeing and I enjoy my life.

I believe "toxic commitment" equates to "trauma bonding." There IS hope, but for those mired in toxic relationships it boils down to deciding if committing to oneself trumps committing to slivers of hope that are tossed out like crumbs.

JMO.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

Except for physical abuse or CSA my thoughts on it is I'm not going to consider that person who chooses to stay as stupid, on a high horse or in any other negative light. And as for those choosing to stay and coming here looking for advice on how to cope with their decision, if you think it's a bad decision you don't have to respond. After all they've made their decision. What I do find quite interesting is people who have gone through years of a bad marriage, finally leave and all of a sudden "can't understand why on earth anyone would put up with that". Hello! Wasn't that the story of your life before you decided to leave??? 

Anyway what I'm trying to convey is sometimes we can't help people or get them to see things inside there own relationships in the same way looking from the outside. And there might be much more to see anyway if we could somehow step in the midst. So psycho analyzing a person's "true" reason for staying in my opinion does them a disservice. 

One of the things I often read here is don't stay for the kids. Yet I know quite a few now grown adults who now realize their parents stayed for their sakes and they have nothing but appreciation. Like it or not many kids are/were devastated by divorce. Sure they got over it and lived through it but they still look on it as a dark part of their lives. 

My sister who is my dads bio daughter but not my Mom's (though she thinks of her as her "true" Mom) has had deep conversations about this. So I'm speaking from the perspective of someone that I'm very close to.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> I think any time there is a pattern of abuse that is unlikely to ever change, it's time to go. I think it would be premature to file the first time someone yells at you in the heat of the moment. But constant snide remarks, belittling, gaslighting, emotional neglect, anger, etc. is absolutely abuse, bruises or no bruises.
> 
> Whenever I hear someone who is dismissive of emotional abuse, I assume they are dumber than a box of hair, or they are an emotional abuser who doesn't like having their toes stepped on.


I think those that diminish emotional abuse don't understand two things. An emotional abuser does not KNOW they are abusing. Their magical thinking is their own set of coping mechanisms for whatever their stuff is. NO ONE walks around the world thinking, I want to be an abuser today. I am a really bad dude, and I am good with that. Secondly, abused do not immediately recognize it. It is NOT obvious like a bruise. It SEEMS like a genuine attempt at communication...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

From what I've observed in personal private conversations with others and observations I myself think some emotional abusers do know what they're doing.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> From what I've observed in personal private conversations with others and observations I myself think some emotional abusers do know what they're doing.


I would love to be a fly on the wall for those conversations. My experience does not contain that exposure. Wish it did.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> From what I've observed in personal private conversations with others and observations I myself think some emotional abusers do know what they're doing.


I second this. I have had an abuser admit flat out to me that he deliberately withheld, withdrew, lashed out verbally **as a way to "punish" me for feelings he was having**, even though he knew that I hadn't actually done anything negative to him and that his feelings stemmed from his own messed up perceptions and feelings of insecurity.

I have a female friend who verbally and emotionally abuses men. She knows she does it. She says it makes her feel good to do it in the face of her feelings stemming from her past, not anything the men are actually doing to her.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Livvie said:


> I second this. I have had an abuser admit flat out to me that he deliberately withheld, withdrew, lashed out verbally **as a way to "punish" me for feelings he was having**, even though he knew that I hadn't actually done anything negative to him and that his feelings stemmed from his own messed up perceptions and feelings of insecurity.
> 
> I have a female friend who verbally and emotionally abuses men. She knows she does it. She says it makes her feel good to do it in the face of her feelings stemming from her past, not anything the men are actually doing to her.


Yikes. That is unreal. i learned something today.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

It takes an enormous amount of energy and courage to break free from an emotionally abusive marriage. Just as it takes some unknown reasons to remain. 

It is such a painful process either way. Today, I have people tell me they admire my example (leaving and succeeding). Who knew anyone was even paying attention? Then, too, they never truly knew the depths of my despair, but they were still pulling for me in their own way.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

sunsetmist said:


> It takes an enormous amount of energy and courage to break free from an emotionally abusive marriage. Just as it takes some unknown reasons to remain.
> 
> It is such a painful process either way. Today, I have people tell me they admire my example (leaving and succeeding). Who knew anyone was even paying attention? Then, too, they never truly knew the depths of my despair, but they were still pulling for me in their own way.


There is no <LOVE> emoticon.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

It's interesting where this thread "went." 

When it began, this was actually a concept I was thinking about in that I was trying to clarify the balance of honoring a commitment to stay through all that life brings and at the same time not staying if it becomes toxic. If the relationship is becoming toxic, where is the line of truly honoring commitment vs. keeping sound bound to something bad just because they made a promise? It feels like a Catch-22. 

Here's the thing: after thinking about it, I don't think it is as much of a "black or white" concept as I was first thinking. In an honorable commitment, you promise to spend your life treating the other person with love--there's nowhere in there that says things like "I'll have all my needs met" or "Until I don't feel like it." Thus you can honor your commitment by how YOU choose to live...not basing your actions on how they live. Also note that the commitment is to share all that life sends: better or worse, richer or poorer, sickness or health. It doesn't say that you'd stay through any bad treatment the person would inflict on you, or that you'd stay through abuse and neglect--it's the rollercoaster OF LIFE, such as death in the family or empty nest or loss of income. 

As always @Emerging Buddhist had some thoughts that really helped solidify it for me. HOPE can be true hope or false hope. False hope would really be denial or fear wrapped in "commitment." True hope would be "I see reasonable reason to believe that this isn't forever and that you are acting in a way that indicates it could get better." His term for it: having faith. If you have faith that it may not be great now but your partner is acting and trying and taking real steps to do better, there is true hope that change may come...stick it out. If you have lost faith, if your partner is all words and no actions, or if they refuse to even try...then hope is honestly lost and it would be toxic commitment to stay. 

Sometimes life does get bad, and it's not the people in the relationship...it's the circumstance that occurred that makes it hard. Sometimes the people in the relationship need to grow and the growth is slow but it is happening. Those are times when you could reasonably say "This is worth being patient even though it is toxic in the moment." Sometimes the people in the relationship are harmful to each other--sometimes purposefully, as in the examples of abuse in the posts above--and necks are stiffened and hearts are hardened...and THAT is when it is time to be honest and say "I've done all I can do to repair this--I am done."


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

thefam said:


> Except for physical abuse or CSA my thoughts on it is I'm not going to consider that person who chooses to stay as stupid, on a high horse or in any other negative light. And as for those choosing to stay and coming here looking for advice on how to cope with their decision, if you think it's a bad decision you don't have to respond.


Why can't someone respond if they think the poster who remains with a serial cheater (or some other reason besides physical abuse or CSA) is making a bad decision to stay? I don't recall anyone on this forum calling another poster "stupid" for staying. Maybe they do, but I don't recall seeing it. You are free to give your opinion as to what you believe justifies reasons to leave. Just as people can opine that the poster who chooses to stay is making a "bad" decision. 



thefam said:


> After all they've made their decision. What I do find quite interesting is people who have gone through years of a bad marriage, finally leave and all of a sudden "can't understand why on earth anyone would put up with that". Hello! Wasn't that the story of your life before you decided to leave???


Sounds like you are addressing my post. Hello to you! You don't know the story of my life. And what I actually can't wrap my head around is people who come on here and complain for an extended period of time about their partner's short comings. Frequently that partner refuses any type of counseling, even though the poster requests it. That leaves the poster to work on themselves, which is a step towards getting the focus on themselves. After all, we can't fix anyone else except ourselves. Sadly, people often get mired in wanting to "fix" the other person. Thus the protracted complaining an frustration.

You don't have to like what I say. You don't have to agree with what I say. Consider using the "ignore" feature. It is your friend.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

A fair number of posts here seem to indicate that staying in a marriage that isn't optimal for *you* tends toward toxic commitment. I don't often see discussion of whether the relationship is good for the beloved partner.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> A fair number of posts here seem to indicate that staying in a marriage that isn't optimal for *you* tends toward toxic commitment. I don't often see discussion of whether the relationship is good for the beloved partner.


That's because the one being harmed is the one that should be the one who gets to determine if the relationship should continue or not.

Especially if it involves intentional infliction of pain and anguish.

If a serial killer has a hostage chained up in the crawlspace and is starving them, torturing them and raping them; then said serial killer is enjoying and benefiting from the relationship and thinks everything is going along swimmingly - shouldn't it be the hostage that gets to determine whether they should escape or not if the opportunity to do so arises??

....even if the escape will cause the serial killer angst and anguish?

In almost all cases of abuse, ongoing adultery, chronic neglect, sexless marriage etc etc the abuser and the perpetrator benefit from the relationship and wish it to continue and think things are just okey dokey.

It's the one on the recieving end of the abuse and neglect and rejection that are suffering.

IMHO the sufferer's well being and choice trumps the perpetrators preference every single time.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

uhtred said:


> A fair number of posts here seem to indicate that staying in a marriage that isn't optimal for *you* tends toward toxic commitment. I don't often see discussion of whether the relationship is good for the beloved partner.


I'm trying to imagine someone suffering abuse being asked to consider the abuser's feelings.

Um, no


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This conversation wanders quite a bit. 

If someone is being actively harmed (abuse etc), then I think a reasonably person would consider the abuser not to be deserving of love, not of loving the victim. In that case leaving seems always the right choice. 

Many cases here though are more of one-way incompatibility, where one person's needs (usually sexual) are being ignored. That really doesn't seem to be the same thing as abuse to me, and there the correct action is less clear. 






oldshirt said:


> That's because the one being harmed is the one that should be the one who gets to determine if the relationship should continue or not.
> 
> Especially if it involves intentional infliction of pain and anguish.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

AC,
While this is definitely a gray scale, it is also true that if you are really patient and really consistent, eventually a very clear picture emerges. As I read EB’s thread I watched him act with patience and consistency. And then I felt extremely happy watching him act in a calm, determined manner. I like to think he did what I would have done in his shoes - a LOT of good followed by a very direct question: Do I matter to YOU?

And when he heard a very clear response - which was: not very much

And when he accepted that response, I thought - this is a really good guy who gave his partner a lot of chances. And true to the last - she wasn’t able to be happy to free him to seek happiness. Instead, she was angry, bitter and resentful.

Some folks just make for terrible partners. 




Affaircare said:


> It's interesting where this thread "went."
> 
> When it began, this was actually a concept I was thinking about in that I was trying to clarify the balance of honoring a commitment to stay through all that life brings and at the same time not staying if it becomes toxic. If the relationship is becoming toxic, where is the line of truly honoring commitment vs. keeping sound bound to something bad just because they made a promise? It feels like a Catch-22.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Parasitism always has a beneficiary.




uhtred said:


> A fair number of posts here seem to indicate that staying in a marriage that isn't optimal for *you* tends toward toxic commitment. I don't often see discussion of whether the relationship is good for the beloved partner.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

Prodigal said:


> Why can't someone respond if they think the poster who remains with a serial cheater (or some other reason besides physical abuse or CSA) is making a bad decision to stay?
> 
> *Of course anyone can respond. And I can give my opinion on anyone's response. *
> 
> ...


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> It's interesting where this thread "went."
> 
> When it began, this was actually a concept I was thinking about in that I was trying to clarify the balance of honoring a commitment to stay through all that life brings and at the same time not staying if it becomes toxic. If the relationship is becoming toxic, where is the line of truly honoring commitment vs. keeping sound bound to something bad just because they made a promise? It feels like a Catch-22.
> 
> ...


As @Affaircare mentioned, we had some good sideline conversation about this and I think something with true hope that is also dismissed too easily is trust. Trust is something that is either present or it isn't, it is a foundational cornerstone unlike hope or faith that can change and one can have any amount of...

At some point in the toxicity, with sustained loss of faith and hope where a clear lack of actions make the difference, trust will break.

That is when acceptance makes all the difference between a healthy disconnect or an unhealthy holding on.


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## Uselessmale (May 20, 2017)

I’ve been reading this thread from it’s beginning. Toxic relationship is a good description of my marriage. So many posters here are correct (sorry I don’t remember all the names), you find yourself in a slowly spiraling decline without knowing it. The story of the frog in the pot water that is slowly heated is TRUE! I came to realize a few years ago that she was just mean, on a daily basis, and didn’t realize it. When I tried to say something about it, my voiced concerns were not received well, to say the least. I’m not without fault, was raised in a physically and verbally abusive home, an learned to cower and shut down when I am the object of the abuse. It is an insidious process, slowly the relationship descends in to a mess. The reason it’s not really noticed is that the marriage is still working for the abuser. The abuser is usually getting their way, while all the others in the house tiptoe around trying not to “poke the bear”. This is what I lived in for 30years now I’m out, living on my own. Being lonely alone is a lot easier than being in the same house with someone that fluctuates between verbal/emotional abuse and ignoring you. The thing that made me want to post was the story about how a mans 17 year old son would gauge the day good or bad depending on his mom’s mood. It is very telling about my wife when, my children ( mid twenties), still end conversations with the caveat, “please don’t tell mom”. It took my leaving before she admitted there “might” be a problem.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> This conversation wanders quite a bit.
> 
> If someone is being actively harmed (abuse etc), then I think a reasonably person would consider the abuser not to be deserving of love, not of loving the victim. In that case leaving seems always the right choice.
> 
> Many cases here though are more of one-way incompatibility, where one person's needs (usually sexual) are being ignored. That really doesn't seem to be the same thing as abuse to me, and there the correct action is less clear.


I really don't see it as any less clear.

Now my serial killer/hostage scenario was the extreme to make the point, but the concept is the same. - one person is getting their needs met whilst depriving the other of theirs.

Assuming the deprivor is aware of the deprivee's anguish and they still strive for statas quo at the expense of the deprivee, then in my book the deprivee's choices trump the deprivor. End of story; close the book.

A poster above used the word parasite. I believe many if these relationships to be parasitical in nature. 

The tick, the flea and the mosquito all need blood of the host to survive but yet give the host nothing but pain and disease in return. 

[email protected]#k the mosquito. Swat him and go on about your business. The Mosquitos needs don't matter for they are only causing anguish and are a detriment to the host's well being. 

They are toxic.

Their needs don't count.


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

Uselessmale said:


> I’ve been reading this thread from it’s beginning. Toxic relationship is a good description of my marriage. So many posters here are correct (sorry I don’t remember all the names), you find yourself in a slowly spiraling decline without knowing it. The story of the frog in the pot water that is slowly heated is TRUE! I came to realize a few years ago that she was just mean, on a daily basis, and didn’t realize it. When I tried to say something about it, my voiced concerns were not received well, to say the least. I’m not without fault, was raised in a physically and verbally abusive home, an learned to cower and shut down when I am the object of the abuse. It is an insidious process, slowly the relationship descends in to a mess. The reason it’s not really noticed is that the marriage is still working for the abuser. The abuser is usually getting their way, while all the others in the house tiptoe around trying not to “poke the bear”. This is what I lived in for 30years now I’m out, living on my own. Being lonely alone is a lot easier than being in the same house with someone that fluctuates between verbal/emotional abuse and ignoring you. The thing that made me want to post was the story about how a mans 17 year old son would gauge the day good or bad depending on his mom’s mood. It is very telling about my wife when, my children ( mid twenties), still end conversations with the caveat, “please don’t tell mom”. It took my leaving before she admitted there “might” be a problem.


Glad you finally left your toxic situation. I hope you and your adult children are doing well, that this cycle of abuse you describe ends with you, rather than continuing with the next generation. Stay busy. thedudeLebowski had a great post about hiking and setting personal goals for the sake of the journey...i.e. a person is not "useless" when they choose otherwise.
Wishing you health & happiness


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## Uselessmale (May 20, 2017)

Old shirt,

I know slapping the mosquito is the thing to do, but sometimes it’s harder to do than you think. The quip “Its complicated “, is the only way to describe it.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Is sex really the difference between loving someone, wanting the best for them, often being willing to die for them if necessary, and viewing them as a parasite?

I like sex, it matters to me, but it doesn't have anything like that level of importance.

What if a partner becomes physically unable have sex. Or what if due to some trauma they become psychologically unable?



oldshirt said:


> I really don't see it as any less clear.
> 
> Now my serial killer/hostage scenario was the extreme to make the point, but the concept is the same. - one person is getting their needs met whilst depriving the other of theirs.
> 
> ...


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Sometimes staying in a toxic commitment is necessary for a period of time, especially in situations with young children in the home. Because the abused/neglected patent is not selfish and puts their kids needs first.

Children of divorce are much more likely to attempt suicide, to drop out of school, to get lower grades, to get pregnant, to develop untreated health problems, to have lower paying jobs, etc. A psychiatrist friend of mine says that children of divorce need more therapy than children who had a parent that died.
Adult kids may also realize what lengths their abused/neglected parent went thru and both understand and appreciate their sacrific.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Uselessmale said:


> Old shirt,
> 
> I know slapping the mosquito is the thing to do, but sometimes it’s harder to do than you think. The quip “Its complicated “, is the only way to describe it.


Actually it is no more complicated than YOU doing what you had to do. Of course you are kicking yourself, for staying as long as you did. We all do that. 

But even with your childhood abuse, and the abuse that you took from your wife, YOU were able to finally see that you WERE being abused and got out. 

I recommend that you continue or start therapy so that you can really work on yourself and really become the person that you are capable of being. 

For me, I want to tell everyone in these types or relationships this: 

No matter how hard it seems to be to leave. No matter how scared your are OF leaving. No matter what roadblocks that you put up in front of your leaving... It is worth it. It is worth money, it is worth being alone if you have to be, which you probably won't but even so, it is worth anything to get out of these situations. 

I my case, I finally found a women that loves me like no other and I feel the same way about her. Sometime we just lay around in bed telling each other how lucky we feel to have found the other. 

If you have never experienced this... then you need to... it is absolutely the best feeling in the world and there is nothing like it. 

I'm just saying...


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> That's because the one being harmed is the one that should be the one who gets to determine if the relationship should continue or not.
> 
> Especially if it involves intentional infliction of pain and anguish.
> 
> ...


I'm likely overthinking this. But if the person wishes to continue the relationship, then (by reversing the logic) they must benefit from the relationship. Which by stretching the point would point to them being an abuser. So this line of thought indicates that the toxic relationship discussed here can be described as two abusers staying together and benefiting from the relationship. Is this Where I am?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Is sex really the difference between loving someone, wanting the best for them, often being willing to die for them if necessary, and viewing them as a parasite?
> 
> I like sex, it matters to me, but it doesn't have anything like that level of importance.
> 
> What if a partner becomes physically unable have sex. Or what if due to some trauma they become psychologically unable?



Let's keep in mind that for the purposes of this this, we are talking about toxicity and being in a relationship that is causing a detriment to someone's well being.

This isn't really a "sexless marriage" topic per se.

If someone isn't actually experiencing any suffering, anguish or harm in any manner from a sexless marriage, then it's not really applicable. 

If someone is ok with a Sexlessmarriage and no one is experiencing any distress from it, then it's not a toxic relationship.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm likely overthinking this. But if the person wishes to continue the relationship, then (by reversing the logic) they must benefit from the relationship. Which by stretching the point would point to them being an abuser. So this line of thought indicates that the toxic relationship discussed here can be described as two abusers staying together and benefiting from the relationship. Is this Where I am?


I'm not following you at all.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Uselessmale said:


> Old shirt,
> 
> I know slapping the mosquito is the thing to do, but sometimes it’s harder to do than you think. The quip “Its complicated “, is the only way to describe it.


It's very rare that the right thing to do is ever easy.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

MAJDEATH said:


> Sometimes staying in a toxic commitment is necessary for a period of time, especially in situations with young children in the home. Because the abused/neglected patent is not selfish and puts there kids needs first.
> 
> Children of divorce are much more likely to attempt suicide, to drop out of school, to get lower grades, to get pregnant, to develop untreated health problems, to have lower paying jobs, etc. A psychiatrist friend of mine says that children of divorce need more therapy than children who had a parent that died.
> Adult kids may also realize what lengths their abused/neglected parent went thru and both understand and appreciate their sacrific.


The older I get and the more of the world I observe objectively, the less I think children are harmed by the actual divorce. 

In fact in cases where both parents are kind, responsible, sane, sober people who are involved and supportive and loving in their children's lives, I do not believe children are actually damaged or harmed *at all.*

In fact in truely toxic and abusive or neglectful environments, I think divorce is the treatment and not the disease. 

The harm and damage to children comes from the environment of abuse, addition, neglect, hostility etc and not the divorce itself.

Staying "for the children" and subjecting them to the toxicity along with everyone else is actually part if the "Toxic Commitment" I am talking about in this thread.

People are committing themselves (and hence their children) to remaining in a harmful environment inspite of the harm and damage that is occuring to themselves and possibly to their children as well. 

Harm to children comes from abuse, addiction, neglect, chronic hostility and tension.

It does not come from two loving, supportive and involved parents who happen to live in two separate houses. 

Staying "for the children" is part of the disease process.


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> It's very rare that the right thing to do is ever easy.


It really is amazing the possibilities and opportunities that present themselves when you have this courage and conviction, might even be one of life's biggest lessons.
My own life would be _very_ different if I hadn't made some really tough choices. The rewards have been easily tenfold. It's never too late to make changes. I like slappin' mosquitoes! (but I do put the spiders outside to live another day 0)


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The discussion has wandered a lot. the OP had a line 

"Every day we see people here that are being abused, some times outright violently, cheated on and rejected for all love and affection in marriage..... and yet they refuse to consider getting out of the situation. "

The "rejected for all love and affection" may have meant just that situation, or maybe was using that to describe the abuse. 

In any case I'm not sure what sorts of situations we are talking about. Are we talking actual abuse, or are we talking about people who are in some way not holding up their end of the marriage?









oldshirt said:


> Let's keep in mind that for the purposes of this this, we are talking about toxicity and being in a relationship that is causing a detriment to someone's well being.
> 
> This isn't really a "sexless marriage" topic per se.
> 
> ...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> If someone is ok with a Sexlessmarriage and no one is experiencing any distress from it, then it's not a toxic relationship.


And if someone isn't suffering, then there is no need to complain. So, after a point, the one complaining either needs to change the circumstance or stop complaining.


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## Uselessmale (May 20, 2017)

Don't be offended if i don't mention your name. Uthred ( I know where you got that name, great by the way), and oldshirt, thankyou for your insight ,experience and opinions. I am going through separation with no family, and no fiend support. I appreciate the honesty and candor you both post. Ursala, and Don't Panic, thank you for the encouragement and support. To those who are new here, you will find the truth. It will be in posts that offend you, some you agree with, some will scare you, you will feel alone, but know that these people (that i have no idea who they are or where they live) will share the good the bad and the ugly. Just like a sex site we are all here for the same thing, marriages that are in the sh#$%^r Some marriages will get flushed and some won't. Ursala I am sorry to hear about your situation, if I knew who you were, where, you are, i'd come by and take you for a drink and dinner. you have been an encourager to me many times over the past few months. Thank you all t


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> The discussion has wandered a lot. the OP had a line
> 
> "Every day we see people here that are being abused, some times outright violently, cheated on and rejected for all love and affection in marriage..... and yet they refuse to consider getting out of the situation. "
> 
> ...


I realize it is a little hard to draw a fine line and define exactly what is and what is not a toxic relationship and what may be soul-killing for one, may be no problem for another.

I guess for my purposes, a toxic relationship is any relationship where one or more person's well being is being negatively effected on an ongoing basis by remaining in the relationship. 

Apply that definition however you see fit.

Like I said above, I am not talking about sexless marriages per se although some of those scenarios can certainly fit that definition.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> The older I get and the more of the world I observe objectively, the less I think children are harmed by the actual divorce.
> 
> *In fact in cases where both parents are kind, responsible, sane, sober people who are involved and supportive and loving in their children's lives, I do not believe children are actually damaged or harmed at all.*
> 
> ...


I disagree. Staying and working on your marriage until the children are "launched" is honorable, and something the adult children will understand if you decide to divorce later. Heck, dealing with kids might be the source of some of the stress in the marriage, and after they are grown you might just be able to work it out.

For a child, divorce shatters their basic bedrock of security and belief concerning the parents' abilities to care for them. Children have the strong belief that there is only one right family relationship, and that is Mom and Dad being together. Any other relationship configuration presents a conflict or betrayal of their basic understanding of life. In divorce, children tend to resent both the custodial and absent parent.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

uhtred said:


> Many cases here though are more of one-way incompatibility, where one person's needs (usually sexual) are being ignored. That really doesn't seem to be the same thing as abuse to me, and there the correct action is less clear.


If a persons needs are not be met, and the other partner has flat out refused to even consider those needs, that is bordering on abandonment/neglect and is toxic IMHO.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

MAJDEATH said:


> I disagree. Staying and working on your marriage until the children are "launched" is honorable, and something the adult children will understand if you decide to divorce later. Heck, dealing with kids might be the source of some of the stress in the marriage, and after they are grown you might just be able to work it out.
> 
> For a child, divorce shatters their basic bedrock of security and belief concerning the parents' abilities to care for them. Children have the strong belief that there is only one right family relationship, and that is Mom and Dad being together. Any other relationship configuration presents a conflict or betrayal of their basic understanding of life. In divorce, children tend to resent both the custodial and absent parent.


I am concerned that you have really lost it. After what you are putting up with from your cheating wife, and still cheating I am guessing, you think your kids don't know what is going on. 

I have raised kids around a crazy wife, I know the damage that is does, I will never forgive myself for that.

You have no idea what you are taking about...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Responses in bold below.




MAJDEATH said:


> I disagree. Staying and working on your marriage until the children are "launched" is honorable,
> 
> *the key here is whether "working on it" is producing tangible, positive improvement and solutions vs simply enduring it and hence subjecting everyone to toxic commitment and making everyone simply live with the toxicity.
> 
> ...


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## Uselessmale (May 20, 2017)

Some recent studies that it is more damaging to children to leave them in a toxic environment, than for the parents to split and de-escalate, the stress in everyone’s life. I believe the book is “How to know if it’s time to go”. By Birnbach and Hyman. The book is older but the same theory has been espoused in recent articles I have seen on the Psychology Today web site.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

MAJDEATH said:


> For a child, divorce shatters their basic bedrock of security and belief concerning the parents' abilities to care for them. Children have the strong belief that there is only one right family relationship, and that is Mom and Dad being together. Any other relationship configuration presents a conflict or betrayal of their basic understanding of life. In divorce, children tend to resent both the custodial and absent parent.


WTF???? My parents split up when I was 10. Best thing that ever happened to me.


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## sunshinesas (Jul 18, 2010)

I stayed over 32 years and regret it now. I am still in therapy trying to figure out the why of it all.


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## MikeinTexas (Dec 8, 2017)

I ended a toxic relationship months ago. I had enough. My exgf thought everything was "normal" despite some very unhealthy jealous & controlling behaviors of hers as well as destroying my trust thru her online dating. I wasn't perfect either. I struggled with communication and having clear boundaries. 
She blamed me for "giving up" and told her friends that if you truly love someone, you would never give up on them.

But I call BS. 

Sometimes, when you know deep down that things are unhealthy and toxic, you need to let them go. THAT is REAL LOVE. Valuing yourself enough to walk away from it.


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