# Dealing with Herpes in a marriage



## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

So.... my story has many threads. This is another one that I think can be discussed on it's own, so let's tease it out. 

The back story: When I met my wife, both her and I were virgins. I was a virgin and she was a virgin (or so she said). So I assumed neither one of us could have STIs so I never worried about that. Years later she confessed that she had given a boy a blow job in college, so she was a technical virgin. She also had "cold sores". I didn't know anyone with cold sores and knew nothing about it. From the name, I assumed it was caused by the cold virus, so no biggie. She seemed to be embarrassed when I noticed, so I never pointed them out or talked about it. She insisted that they are very common and that she takes care of them, but that I could get them on my mouth too if we kissed when she had one and it was oozing. Once married, when we had sex, it was PIV. About once every 2 years, she might briefly give me oral sex for about a minute, but never to completion. Oral sex felt amazing to me though. She said she just didn't like giving me BJs. I had always assumed as time went on, barriers would come down, and we'd have opportunities to give each other oral sex. The same about anal sex. We have never had anal sex. For her, it is "exit only" and although I have been curious, I can respect that since we have PIV and I am more interested in oral sex anyway. 

So, a few years ago, when she got a (cold sore), I looked it up online and read about it. That's when I found out that it's actually herpes (Herpes Simplex Virus or HSV1 or HSV2) and it can be passed to the genitals as genital herpes. WHAT!? I had no clue and neither did she. She was too embarrassed to ever talk to a doctor about it and thought you could only get them on your mouth. After reading further, I have since found that if one partner has oral herpes, the virus sheds about 10% of the time and is very communicable even when there is no sore. According to the CDC partners should always where a condom to prevent passing it to their partner. And the CDC website seems to suggest serious consideration of a relationship where condoms will always required. I was mad. She told me in the past that it was no big deal. She never said it was an STI on her mouth and if we had oral sex, I was risking genital herpes for life. I was pissed. I had trusted her. I assumed that she had talked to a doctor about this when she first got them and knew what the implications were. But now, I can see what happened. She got them when she was 3 years old and grew up with them, and of course there was never any talk about the possibility to sexually transmit that. So, nobody ever told her and she was too embarrassed to ask her doctor all these years. And I just assumed she had since she assured me it was fine. I guess we all assumed things. 

So I visited my dermatologist today and confirmed with him all that I had learned. I told him I had 2 blood tests confirming that I was negative for HSV1 and HSV2. This is actually very bad and I'll explain later. The dermatologist was shocked. He said "you are extremely rare. By your age, almost everyone has been exposed to HSV1 through a water fountain or kissing or something else in the environment. And that exposure would make you immune. But since you have never been exposed, yes you are at high risk for genital herpes from oral sex with your wife. It's possible you have natural immunity to it, but there is no way to know." It turns out that many people have been exposed to HSV1, but never get the sores or blisters, so you are essentially immunized from HSV1. I was actually hoping that was the case for me. But now, the only safe sex with my wife is PIV. 

So, no biggie right? PIV is great. It was great, until I acquired my sexual dysfunction. Now, oral sex is the only thing that can bring me to orgasm. But now, I don't want to risk it with her. So now, I feel like there is no point to PIV with her (other than for her pleasure). Also, this is a new dimension to resent my wife. I loved oral sex and if she'd told me when we were dating that I would get genital herpes from her, I would probably have dumped her because one of the things I REALLY appreciated about her was that she had never been with anyone else and there was no risk of an STI. 

The bottom line is that when someone carries an STI, it is their moral obligation to inform their partner BEFORE sex. She didn't do that for me and misled me (unknowingly), for years. 

So, why don't I have genital herpes by now? Because she has given me less than 10 BJs over our 17 years together. So, by chance and infrequency, I have not been infected. But making BJs routine to chase having orgasms, would probably get me genital herpes within a year. 

Part of me thinks, maybe I'm just bitter over the sexual dysfunction and am just finding other things to complain about. 

What are my options? This is my prioritized list in my mind at the moment... 
1. Practice safe sex, giving up on ever having an orgasm again, and see if we can reconnect and find love without the bond brought by shared orgasm.
2. Divorce and marry someone like me without Herpes 
3. Take an anti-viral against herpes to prevent getting it (literature is mixed on whether this actually helps. If it does, it just lowers the risk some.)
4. Throw caution to the wind and let myself get genital herpes, but if we divorce, it's going to be difficult finding a new partner (or not if HSV is so common)


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

*Re: Dealing with Herpes in a relationship*



wantshelp said:


> 3. Take an anti-viral against herpes to prevent getting it (literature is mixed on whether this actually helps. If it does, it just lowers the risk some.)
> 4. Throw caution to the wind and let myself get genital herpes, but if we divorce, it's going to be difficult finding a new partner (or not if HSV is so common)




I say a mixture of the above.


Take the anti-viral, while knowing there is a risk of getting infected.

If, you find yourself single down the road; you'll have to explain to a future partner how you got infected. If they love you, they'll understand.


I'm sorry for you to find this out.

There are ways for your wife to minimize breakouts. In her case, would Valtrex help? [That might be for genital herpes, though, not the more common "cold sore" variety]


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

*Re: Dealing with Herpes in a relationship*



notmyrealname4 said:


> I say a mixture of the above.
> Take the anti-viral, while knowing there is a risk of getting infected.


If I still loved her, I agree those would be my top 2 as well. But right now, we are really struggling and I am hesitant to risk an infection with her considering our rocky relationship right now. 



notmyrealname4 said:


> If, you find yourself single down the road; you'll have to explain to a future partner how you got infected. If they love you, they'll understand.


I think you're right, but many people will not even consider dating me if I have genital herpes. Or so I assume. 



notmyrealname4 said:


> I'm sorry for you to find this out.


I feel like an idiot. It seems like everyone except me (and her) knew what it was...



notmyrealname4 said:


> There are ways for your wife to minimize breakouts.


For sure, and since I have not been infected, she has done a good job thus far. She just uses abreva when a sore appears and we avoid contact there. 



notmyrealname4 said:


> In her case, would Valtrex help? [That might be for genital herpes, though, not the more common "cold sore" variety]


Actually, my dermatologist's first suggestion was for her to take the anti-viral. It's hard to talk to her about it now, more so than ever. She feels blamed and gets very defensive. During a fight, she said that this just proves that I am not committed to her. That's because it doesn't matter to her if I get genital herpes (I assume because she doesn't like sex and can't get it herself in her genitals -- no risk to her). So, since she doesn't care, I apparently, should be willing to get infected, otherwise, I must be considering leaving or having an affair. There is some truth to that though. I'm not in an affair and I am not looking for a new place to live, and I have no idea what the future holds at this point, but I have every right to protect myself from getting genital herpes. Honestly, I feel like she owes me an apology for misleading me, albeit unintentionally. But she continues to be defensive and it's pissing me off. 

AND, it is possible that she doesn't even have herpes. It's possible, she has misdiagnosed herself for years and it's something else. She has never shown it to a doctor or been tested. So, I asked her if she would get tested for me. If she is negative, all this angst was for nothing. If it's positive, it's what we thought, so no change.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

She should definitely get tested ASAP. It's irresponsible for her not to. I mean, that way you know exactly what you guys are dealing with.


But, you should cut her a bit of slack, since she got this (whatever strain it happens to be), at three years of age.:|


She could give you oral with a flavored lubricant condom. I know it's not the same; but it's a compromise in a less than ideal situation. The slickness would come from the lubricant, but the motion and pressure would come from her tongue/lips/mouth. And you would still get that unique kind of intimacy.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> She should definitely get tested ASAP. It's irresponsible for her not to. I mean, that way you know exactly what you guys are dealing with.


Thanks. I will insist



notmyrealname4 said:


> She could give you oral with a flavored lubricant condom. I know it's not the same; but it's a compromise in a less than ideal situation. The slickness would come from the lubricant, but the motion and pressure would come from her tongue/lips/mouth. And you would still get that unique kind of intimacy.


A good suggestion. My sexual dysfunction is a loss of feeling in my penis, making orgasm very difficult. I am pessimistic that a condom will work. I think that will only make it far more difficult to feel/enjoy for me.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

I'm not familiar with your other threads; has the loss of sensation in your penis been addressed by a urologist/neurologist?

If so, what has been suggested as a course of treatment?

There are creams/gels created for women mostly, that are designed to enhance sensation on the clitoris. I *think* they are created for men too??? I wouldn't know, it's the last thing my H would need.

But, have you looked into that? I'm sure you have, I'm just putting it out there.

I've also heard of people using ice-cubes, mints; and so forth, to give intense sensations during oral sex.


There are also tongue rings with small vibrators attached.

I hope you can find an answer; but the first thing to do is find out what strain of virus your wife is carrying.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

How do you get herpes when you are 3? I don't buy that. 

Find the right condom that works. Put it on. Get a bj.


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## Seraphim56 (Nov 13, 2016)

wantshelp said:


> So.... my story has many threads. This is another one that I think can be discussed on it's own, so let's tease it out.
> 
> The back story: When I met my wife, both her and I were virgins. I was a virgin and she was a virgin (or so she said). So I assumed neither one of us could have STIs so I never worried about that. Years later she confessed that she had given a boy a blow job in college, so she was a technical virgin. She also had "cold sores". I didn't know anyone with cold sores and knew nothing about it. From the name, I assumed it was caused by the cold virus, so no biggie. She seemed to be embarrassed when I noticed, so I never pointed them out or talked about it. She insisted that they are very common and that she takes care of them, but that I could get them on my mouth too if we kissed when she had one and it was oozing. Once married, when we had sex, it was PIV. About once every 2 years, she might briefly give me oral sex for about a minute, but never to completion. Oral sex felt amazing to me though. She said she just didn't like giving me BJs. I had always assumed as time went on, barriers would come down, and we'd have opportunities to give each other oral sex. The same about anal sex. We have never had anal sex. For her, it is "exit only" and although I have been curious, I can respect that since we have PIV and I am more interested in oral sex anyway.
> 
> ...


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

blueinbr said:


> How do you get herpes when you are 3? I don't buy that.
> 
> Find the right condom that works. Put it on. Get a bj.


From a family member who is infected who kisses the child on the cheek. It is highly contagious in an active breakout and can be contagious even if there is no break out.

I've had HSV1 since I was an ankle biter.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> How do you get herpes when you are 3? I don't buy that.


Cold sores are common. Almost everyone is exposed to them. It is easy for a child to get them. Someone with the virus can kiss them and they will get it. It can be passed from sharing a drink or many other ways. Cold sores are very contagious. They are not considered a sexually transmitted disease unless they are transmitted sexually. Cold sores can show up any place on the body.
Herpes is a common virus that most people have been exposed to. There are several strains. Both chicken pox and shingles are types of herpes. When one of my children was two years old, she got a herpetic gum infection. I have no idea how she got it. Certainly not sexually!
It sounds like you are using your wife to feel better about yourself, but are unconcerned about her feelings. No wonder she is defensive, you are treating her like she did something wrong when she didn’t. From what you have said, it sounds like your wife is shy and easily embarrassed, but you brow beat her.


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## Florida_rosbif (Oct 18, 2015)

As I understand it the majority of people have HSV1 and it's not really a big deal. First step is to get your wife tested for STDs then you can talk with a doctor about the real risks involved - I thought that unless someone had an active cold sore the transmissibility was limited.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Florida_rosbif said:


> As I understand it the majority of people have HSV1 and it's not really a big deal. First step is to get your wife tested for STDs then you can talk with a doctor about the real risks involved - I thought that unless someone had an active cold sore the transmissibility was limited.


The virus starts shedding (spreading) slightly before the visible sore. The sore is from the body's reaction to the viral damage caused by the sudden increase of extra foreign proteins (ie virus). Herpes affects the nervous system so that's why the late and nasty mess, also outside the nervous system it doesn't live long (although by virus standards it's pretty hardy), but does transfer into micro-abrasions pretty well (spreads easily by contact). The nerve thing is also why impact, stress, and UV damage can trigger it into activity. It does cause minor damage, but as most people have indicated, in healthy adults, the immune system copes with the damage ok. (it can't cure it, and constantly has to tidy away the odd strand that ends up in the blood system, but short of luck nothing can get rid of it).

Anti-virals don't really work. save your money. They have to specifically target not just the virus, but the particular strain that's present. Proper ones are expensive, and can't actually access a dormant virus anyway (they just work on knocking it back enough so your immune system can cope with the damage/extra work.) some massive lifestyle & diets changes can rarely result in immune system cures, but normally everything can only make it dormant in your cells.

the thing with transmission is exposure to virus is present when it starts to shed (no sign), and shortly after (tingling/immune response), but when the attack has been going for a while and the sore develops, the virus spills -millions- of virus strands to anything nearby or touching, so the infectiousness was present, then skyrockets.

-- 
another vector is damp clothing such as towels, towelettes/facecloths, and swimming pools (with inadequate treatment). Basically anything damp and near body temperature without significant UV exposure.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So let me get this straight. You picked her because she was a virgin (inexperienced). But now that her inexperience has resulted in you being 'duped' into marrying someone with an STI she had no choice over getting and didn't know she had, it's all her fault? And because she was inexperienced (the way you liked it) she's now not wild and crazy enough for you (no BJ and anal), so it's again all her fault for not turning into your sex kitten? And on top of that, YOU have a sexual dysfunction and that's her fault, too?

Sounds to me like you're just looking for an excuse to get rid of her and not share any of the blame.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

I just want to reiterate that OP's wife has some strain of herpes virus; she doesn't have an STI----an infection caused by sexual contact with an infected person.

Perhaps she got the virus when she was 3 by exposure to someone who did have a sexual infection; it's possible; ie. through a non-sexual kiss on the lips, or like spotthedeaddog said, damp toweling or a swimming pool.

But saying that she has an STI is a bit misleading; isn't it?


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

It sounds to me like you were always sort of looking for a reason to switch over to an oral-sex only "diet" and now found a rather convoluted reason not to bother fixing your ED. You can address this with your wife ultimately how you choose, but if your thought is you'll divorce her and find a woman who is looking for handing out no reciprocation oral all the time while you don't address your ED Herpes is hardly your only hurdle. 

Also she doesn't have "Herpes" - you are weaving a false arrive. She has HSV-1, which as pointed out to you - the majority of people have been exposed to and not in sexual manners, but because it's so highly contagious. And once you have it, there is no cure.

Personally, I used to get cold sores all the time when my immune system was a wreck, I highly recommend she try a Lysine supplement, it's what worked for me, though YMMV.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My H stopped drinking Dr Pepper and his cold sores went away...


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Starstarfish said:


> Personally, I used to get cold sores all the time when my immune system was a wreck, *I highly recommend she try a Lysine supplement, it's what worked for me, though YMMV.*



Yes, the Lysine is a good idea. Both the food supplement, and the lysine lip balm.




turnera said:


> My H stopped drinking Dr Pepper and his cold sores went away...



Fascinating.:nerd:


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

This is all disgusting. 

I never had a cold sore. I just had a funeral for my dad and kissed a lot of women friends and family that i had not seen in years. 

Now i have to worry about getting herpes. 

OP, don't throw caution to the wind. Sound like your marriage is near an end. If you get herpes you will shrink your dating poor to nearly nothing.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

For a bad case of cold sores, nothing beats ether. A product for the treatment of cold sores is Curasore and it contains ether. Its a little hard to find in the big pharmacies.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

blue, I'm sorry about your dad.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

There is a lot of misinformation out there regarding HSV (Herpes Simplex Virus). Here are few factoids that should help you understand the virus.


Contrary to popular belief, HSV is common as it is HIGHLY contagious. It's believed that over 80% of Americans are carriers but about 80-90% of those are asymptomatic (i.e. they never have outbreaks or show symptoms of the virus). 

Typical STD panels DO NOT test for HSV. It's an additional test that must be requested by either the patient (if they fear exposure) or to confirm physical symptoms of the virus. HSV in asymptomatic patients is identified by way of the IgG serum test (bloodwork).

HSV is an infection of the nervous system. It resides in a latent state in the nerves and when triggered (typically due to an auto-immune deficiency), it grows out into the skin - forms lesions. 

HSV can reside anywhere in the body, however HSV-1 is mainly associated with facial infections and HSV-2 is mainly a genital. 

CDC states that 1 in 5 people have genital herpes but they don't know for sure because most infected people don't know they have it (asymptomatic)

Genital herpes can be HSV-1 or HSV-2. Recent studies indicate that 60% of genital herpes is due to HSV-2.

Herpes anywhere else in the body (oral blisters, skin lesions, rashes) is HSV-1 (HSV-2 is rare outside of the genitalia). 

HSV can be spread even when the carrier is showing no symptoms. 

Condom use does not prevent the spread of HSV, it only reduces it. People still get genital herpes with consistent condom use.

@wantshelp, the chances of your wife not having spread HSV-1 to you by way of kissing, or cuddling, or just any sort of skin-to-skin contact in all of the years you've been together is really low. If her diagnoses for being a carrier was made prior to the last decade, then I would seriously question it. 

The bottom line is this. There is currently no vaccine for HSV1 or 2. If you plan on divorcing, know that approximately 80% of the population has HSV. The vast majority of those* do not* know they have it. You are probably just as likely to contact it from a new partner as you are from the wife you've been with for over a decade who _thinks_ she has HSV-1 (but never really confirmed). 

Life is full of risks. It's up to you to decide what's acceptable or not. If you want more info go to herpeslife.com


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Good information. 

I hope i am in the 20% that is uninflected or immune. Better chance to survive the zombie apocalypse. 

But OP is not going to get bjs from his wife. If that is what he needs to get off, he needs a new partner. 

OP, would you stay with your wife if there were no orgasms? If the answer is yes, then anything more is an improvement you can work on.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> But OP is not going to get bjs from his wife. If that is what he needs to get off, he needs a new partner.


How does he know if that's really all he needs to do to get off if he won't go to the doctor and address his ED? 

If a wife took PIV off the table and said I only want you to give me oral, there wouldn't be this conversation, I'm pretty sure.


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## KJ_Simmons (Jan 12, 2016)

Oh good grief man....as others have stated, nearly everybody has it, myself included.

If you are trying to avoid it at all costs, have fun with that. Are you going to require testing after the first date?

If you love your wife, lap that $hit up. Buy yourself some Abreva and kiss away!

And Blue, odds are you are a carrier and you don't even know it! :smile2::x:x


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Starstarfish said:


> How does he know if that's really all he needs to do to get off if he won't go to the doctor and address his ED?
> 
> 
> 
> If a wife took PIV off the table and said I only want you to give me oral, there wouldn't be this conversation, I'm pretty sure.




Read his other threads. The ED was caused by an injury.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I think this whole thing is her fault. If she was straight with you to begin with and told you what she did, this whole thing wouldn't have happened. Not sure if it's worth divorcing her over, but if she won't help you clear this up and be straight with you I'm not sure what else you can do. It's funny how others on here are trying to make this sound like you caused this. What ever....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Wait, what? If she was straight and did what? Acknowledged that she'd been getting COLD SORES her whole life? She didn't even know such cold sores could be classified under said category; about WHAT was she supposed to be straight?


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## Florida_rosbif (Oct 18, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> I think this whole thing is her fault. If she was straight with you to begin with and told you what she did, this whole thing wouldn't have happened. Not sure if it's worth divorcing her over, but if she won't help you clear this up and be straight with you I'm not sure what else you can do. It's funny how others on here are trying to make this sound like you caused this. What ever....


Don't understand this, if she was straight about what? He doesn't seem to upset that she once gave a BJ, and rightly so, it was before they were together, big deal. As for the HSV1 and the cold sores, she could have had that from childhood and it seems to be completely unrelated to the BJ. Given that most adults have already been exposed to HSV1, what did she not tell him?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

OMG I just researched this myself and discovered that Katie Holmes has cold sores:










So now Tom's new girlfriend Emily Thomas, I imagine her asking him in a British accent, "_Tom what is that sore on your lip?_"










"_Nothing to worry about, just from my recent fight scene!_"


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> So let me get this straight. You picked her because she was a virgin (inexperienced).


Nope. I thought I wouldn't have to worry about STI because she'd never had sex before. I didn't give a crap that she was a virgin. In fact, it was more of a negative because I would have preferred someone with more sex experience. She actually picked me and she was the only person I ever dated and ever had sex with. 



turnera said:


> But now that her inexperience has resulted in you being 'duped' into marrying someone with an STI she had no choice over getting and didn't know she had, it's all her fault?


I feel I was duped because she initiated sex frequently, engaged in sex almost daily, and was open minded about different sex acts -- before marriage. Then within months after getting married she started rejecting me and within a year I found myself in a sexless marriage of less than 10x/year. Our therapist called it a "bait-and-switch." Her words, not mine. Aside from that, irrespective of how she got it Herpes, it was HER responsibility to inform sex partners that she carries the Herpes virus. PERIOD. I don't give a crap that she got it at age 3. If she contracted HIV at birth from her mother and took all the meds to control it, but didn't inform sex partners I guess that would be OK too? I'm sorry, but you are never going to convince me that it was not her responsibility to inform sex partners of possible life-long infections. It was her responsibility to understand what she had. And, I have the right to be offered this information and given the choice before engaging in sexual activity. I was absolutely duped. 



turnera said:


> And because she was inexperienced (the way you liked it) she's now not wild and crazy enough for you (no BJ and anal), so it's again all her fault for not turning into your sex kitten?


Ok, you're making a lot of assumptions here. I NEVER said I liked inexperienced. I like STI free. And, she was wild and crazy, until I put the ring on her finger. So, I just wanted her to be the person I thought I married. 



turnera said:


> And on top of that, YOU have a sexual dysfunction and that's her fault, too?


No, of course the injury is not her fault. Making me live a near celibate life for what may end up being my entire sexually active life is what I resent. If I did anything wrong, it was not demanding that she be true to our wedding vows (to love honor and cherish) or leave. 



turnera said:


> Sounds to me like you're just looking for an excuse to get rid of her and not share any of the blame.


I am looking for excuses, but there is no doubt she has earned a mountain of blame.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> How do you get herpes when you are 3? I don't buy that.


Actually the dermatologist said you can get it when your parents kiss you or from the school water fountain. As others have said, it's easily spread. 



blueinbr said:


> Find the right condom that works. Put it on. Get a bj.


I think I will try this. Anyone here have any tips about maximizing sensation for blowjobs with condoms? And I'm imagining a mouthful of latex is not pleasant either, any tips to make it better for her?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Do it in the shower.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> I feel I was duped because she initiated sex frequently, engaged in sex almost daily, and was open minded about different sex acts -- before marriage. Then within months after getting married she started rejecting me and within a year I found myself in a sexless marriage of less than 10x/year. Our therapist called it a "bait-and-switch." Her words, not mine.


You had a joint therapist? You went together? And the therapist told BOTH of you that she engaged in bait and switch? What was her response?



> Aside from that, irrespective of how she got it Herpes, it was HER responsibility to inform sex partners that she carries the Herpes virus. PERIOD. I don't give a crap that she got it at age 3. If she contracted HIV at birth from her mother and took all the meds to control it, but didn't inform sex partners I guess that would be OK too? I'm sorry, but you are never going to convince me that it was not her responsibility to inform sex partners of possible life-long infections. It was her responsibility to understand what she had. And, I have the right to be offered this information and given the choice before engaging in sexual activity. I was absolutely duped.


 But YOU said that she didn't know anything about it being sexually based. Right? _You _said she just assumed they were cold sores. Right? When you met her, did you warn her about rashes you get on your elbows? Because cold sores and rashes are about the same thing, especially if the person has NO IDEA that said cold sores could have been categorized as some sort of sex-based infection. So how was she supposed to know she had to inform you of something she had no idea of in the first place?


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

CynthiaDe said:


> Cold sores are common. Almost everyone is exposed to them. It is easy for a child to get them.


I completely agree. I think this is accepted fact at this point. 



CynthiaDe said:


> They are not considered a sexually transmitted disease unless they are transmitted sexually.


I'm sorry, but we can agree to disagree on this. HSV1 is herpes. It can be transmitted sexually, so it is an STI. PERIOD. People like you and my wife try to say everyone has it or it's no big deal, but that doesn't change the fact that Herpes carriers should respect my desire to choose to risk being exposed. Nobody gets to make that choice for me. I know you really don't want to think about the fact that your kid has an STI, but I think one of mine does too (my wife loved kissing them on their soft lips when they were babies), so I feel you on that. And yes, it is going to be a crappy conversation when I have to tell them that they have to be careful and why. But that is the RESPONSIBLE thing to do. 



CynthiaDe said:


> It sounds like you are using your wife to feel better about yourself, but are unconcerned about her feelings. No wonder she is defensive, you are treating her like she did something wrong when she didn’t. From what you have said, it sounds like your wife is shy and easily embarrassed, but you brow beat her.


You are absolutely right. She was browbeat into being shy, just not by me. By her overbearing mother. She was constantly criticized as a child and was afraid to be herself growing up. We've been through this extensively in counseling. I'm sorry, but I can assure you that I do not browbeat her about this. We still avoid talking about it. We are both shy people. Our therapist constantly compares us to "The Gift of the Magi". I am afraid to ask her to get the HSV test because it may hurt her feelings. 

So, please do not assume a malicious intent from me. My wife is a kind person with her own quirks and we have both made mistakes. But, when we got married I gave myself completely to her. That was my commitment to her when we were married. But, I never said it aloud. I assumed we had the same idea. That was my mistake - I failed to tell her that my expectations of marriage were a complete commitment to each other, including sex. I now know that her expectations for marriage was based on the model of her dysfunctional family growing up. Her expectations were that the man makes money, inseminates, and there is no affection. She literally thought having sex a few times a year was normal. She never saw her parents do it and thought it must be in frequent. 

I appreciate the thoughts and perspective, but please don't assume the worst. Ask first. I'll answer.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

> I'm sorry, but we can agree to disagree on this. HSV1 is herpes. It can be transmitted sexual, so it is an STI. PERIOD


You are inventing your own facts here.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Starstarfish said:


> How does he know if that's really all he needs to do to get off if he won't go to the doctor and address his ED?


You totally made all that up, cuz it's all wrong. I have seen 10 doctors about this. Most of them specialists in neurology, endocrinology, and urology. One of them is the BEST doctor of Sexual Medicine in the U.S. And I have literally flown from coast to coast to see the best doctors in the country. I have spared no expense and I have even considered seeing a specialist in France. I can assure you, despite my wife's resistance, I am doing everything humanly possible to try to resolve this medically. I was told by one that in their 25 years of experience, they had never had a patient so thoroughly research an issue. 

And another thing... Who said I have ED (Erectile Dysfunction)? I have no problems with erections. I said I have a "sexual dysfunction." My sexual dysfunction is quite different and has no effective treatment. I have lost all feeling in my penis because of a medical accident and having an orgasm has become nearly impossible. And you're right, I have very little idea on what it takes to "get off" (as you put it) because my wife doesn't care enough to help me. She claims that my injury has made her depressed and it made her obese. And before you blame me any more, our therapist suggested that it might be time for my wife to consider allowing me to see a sex surrogate. That came from a female marriage counselor with decades of experience. I can't consider it from a moral perspective, but that exemplifies where we are right now. 



Starstarfish said:


> If a wife took PIV off the table and said I only want you to give me oral, there wouldn't be this conversation, I'm pretty sure.


I don't understand what you are saying/asking. But, I will say this, if any partner takes off the table, the only way their partner can orgasm, that is a solid justification for divorce. Because if demonstrates a lack of commitment to your partner.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What else has made her depressed and obese? While you were flying all over the world and spending what must be thousands on finding a cure for your own medical issue?


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> You had a joint therapist?


Yes


turnera said:


> You went together?


Yes


turnera said:


> And the therapist told BOTH of you that she engaged in bait and switch?


Yes


turnera said:


> What was her response?


She cried. 



turnera said:


> But YOU said that she didn't know anything about it being sexually based. Right? _You _said she just assumed they were cold sores. Right? When you met her, did you warn her about rashes you get on your elbows? Because cold sores and rashes are about the same thing, especially if the person has NO IDEA that said cold sores could have been categorized as some sort of sex-based infection. So how was she supposed to know she had to inform you of something she had no idea of in the first place?


She should have known, it was her responsibility to know and understand her condition. The comparison to rashes is ridiculous and you know it. A rash is treatable and curable. Herpes is untreatable, permanent, and has a strong stigma associated with it. And Herpes has been implicated in a few neurological conditions. 

Let's look at a better example. HPV - Human Papilloma Virus. Another VERY common STI. A decade ago, it was thought to be the cause of cervical cancer only. When the vaccine Gardasil came out, it was given only to young girls because it was assumed that older sexually active girls were already infected. They thought only girls need to get vaccinated because although boys can carry and spread HPV, they don't have a cervix, right? Fast forward to today, the vaccine has caused cervical cancer rates to plummet in those that are vaccinated. But other cancer rates were reduced too in those vaccinated. Why? It is becoming VERY clear that HPV is actually the likely cause of a whole variety of cancers, including penis cancer, anal cancer, throat cancer... see the pattern there? HPV is sexually transmitted through various sex acts (oral sex, anal sex, vaginal sex) and eventually causes cancer there in many people. It is now believed that HPV causes 5% of all cancer worldwide (according to cancer.gov). IMO, you will see the CDC recommend that everyone gets the HPV vaccine in the coming years. Boys, girls, and even adults that are sexually active. That's because the new vaccine blocks the 9 most deadly strains of HPV and if you are only infected with one or two, you may still benefit from the protection. 

My point is, we have no clue what the long term consequences are for Herpes and I have every right to protect my body.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> Yes
> Yes
> Yes
> She cried.


And then what? I assume you then discussed it FURTHER in front of the therapist to find out why she was now not willing to have sex? 



> She should have known, it was her responsibility to know and understand her condition. The comparison to rashes is ridiculous and you know it.


Bullsh*t. I just this week learned about a condition with my body I haven't known for 50+ years. Saying it was somebody's 'job' to figure out that a condition she's had all her life was somehow associated with sexual activity? Absurd. You're grasping at straws because YOU WANT OUT. And you know it. 

Just leave and let her find someone she's compatible with.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

anonmd said:


> You are inventing your own facts here.


Ok, I just searched the web on this exact point, and there does seem to be some debate about that. I will concede that if you do not consider oral sex to be "real sex", and never partake in oral sex, I can see your point because it would never be sexually transmitted. But, from my perspective, oral sex is sex and that makes oral herpes an STI. Most sources concede that it is effectively an STI for all intents and purposes and should be treated as such.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Good to know that YOUR thoughts rule the world and we should all abide by them.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> And then what? I assume you then discussed it FURTHER in front of the therapist to find out why she was now not willing to have sex?


We've been talking in therapy about why she is not willing to have sex for 2 solid years now. The short version is that she grew up in a strict household and told that girls that have sex with boys too often are ****s. That boys only want to use you. She says when I just kiss her, she is afraid it will lead to sex, so she shuts it down, because good girls don't do that. It's all messed up. Her reaction was so extreme we explored the possibility of her having been sexually assaulted at some point in her youth. That turned up nothing, although she confessed that she did read quite a few books that portray violence against women and imagines herself in their place. The therapist told her to stop. We talk about communications and feeling and trust. She apologized for the past. Called herself a cold-fish wife. But, anyway, I would rather not derail the thread further. I am in a sexless marriage imposed by my wife's hang-up from childhood and she is trying to change. 



turnera said:


> Bullsh*t. I just this week learned about a condition with my body I haven't known for 50+ years. Saying it was somebody's 'job' to figure out that a condition she's had all her life was somehow associated with sexual activity? Absurd. You're grasping at straws because YOU WANT OUT. And you know it.
> 
> Just leave and let her find someone she's compatible with.


I'm sorry you're going through that, but I think you are out of line with that statement.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> Good to know that YOUR thoughts rule the world and we should all abide by them.


I accept that others have differing opinions on what sex is. Ok, so you don't think oral sex is sex which means you think Oral Herpes is not an STI. Fine. I totally get that line of thinking. I really do. I don't happen to share it and I think it is reckless to gloss over the fact that cold sores can cause genital herpes. And I am not saying that my thoughts rule the world, but my thoughts certainly do rule MY world. In my world, Vaginal Sex, Oral Sex, and Anal Sex are all sex. So that's why it's an STI in my world. I totally understand if you only think Vagina Sex is the only "real" sex. That's just not my interpretation. 

To me, the name "Cold Sores" is a euphemism to make people feel better about the fact that they actually have Oral Herpes. I get it, it's embarrassing. But when we avoid talking about it in clear terms, people like me and my wife spend their life without a complete understanding of the implications.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> Do it in the shower.


I like that idea.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

After reading all of your comments @wantshelp, I agree with some of the others who have suggested you divorce your wife. I'm not going to sugar it ....You may not find a sexual partner that is both accepting of your sexual dysfunction and STI free, but at least you'll be free of a partner who you don't seem to respect and you find lacking in so many ways. Good luck.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

wantshelp said:


> I accept that others have differing opinions on what sex is. Ok, so you don't think oral sex is sex which means you think Oral Herpes is not an STI. Fine. I totally get that line of thinking. I really do. I don't happen to share it and I think it is reckless to gloss over the fact that cold sores can cause genital herpes. And I am not saying that my thoughts rule the world, but my thoughts certainly do rule MY world. In my world, Vaginal Sex, Oral Sex, and Anal Sex are all sex. So that's why it's an STI in my world. I totally understand if you only think Vagina Sex is the only "real" sex. That's just not my interpretation.


The problem here is that you are referring to a disease that is easily communicable without any necessary sexual contact. It's like calling the common cold or the Flu a STI. Sure, if you've got it and are engaged in sexual intercourse, you're likely to spread it, but it spreads just fine without that. 

Do you know that the one and only time your W engaged in sexual contact with another man is the time she picked this up? Because most people get this when they are kids. Drinking fountains. Swimming pools. Kisses from infected adults. Playing with infected children. 



> To me, the name "Cold Sores" is a euphemism to make people feel better about the fact that they actually have Oral Herpes. I get it, it's embarrassing. But when we avoid talking about it in clear terms, people like me and my wife spend their life without a complete understanding of the implications.


Okaaaaay... thank you for your weird, personally concocted etymology. Cold sores (fever blisters) were considered common and not viewed as a big deal until the 1980's. The term cold sores goes back a long ways, because it describes the symptoms. The virus itself wasn't officially designated until the 1940's. Before that, in common parlance it was referred to by its symptom--a blister/sore which typically accompanies a fever/illness.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> After reading all of your comments @wantshelp, I agree with some of the others who have suggested you divorce your wife. I'm not going to sugar it ....You may not find a sexual partner that is both accepting of your sexual dysfunction and STI free, but at least you'll be free of a partner who you don't seem to respect and you find lacking in so many ways. Good luck.


Thanks Lila. I have read many of your posts since joining TAM and respect your opinion. I failed to communicate with her. I assumed marriage meant the same thing to her. That was a big mistake.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

wantshelp said:


> So, why don't I have genital herpes by now? Because she has given me less than 10 BJs over our 17 years together. So, by chance and infrequency, I have not been infected. But making BJs routine to chase having orgasms, would probably get me genital herpes within a year.
> 
> Part of me thinks, maybe I'm just bitter over the sexual dysfunction and am just finding other things to complain about.
> 
> ...


You don't have Herpes now because of A) luck and B) low transmission rates. Studies show that in relationships with 1 infected and 1 non-infected partner that ~10% will become infected in any given year. Do you not kiss / make out very often? Because that's where you're at risk pal.

Let's look at "your options" list...
1. Sure. Or find a way to orgasm with one. Try handjobs or maybe a BJ with a condom on. I'm thinking this isn't as big a deal as you make it out though, if you've only had ~10BJ's in 17 years.
2. Sure. That's an option. You can end your marriage in a giant temper tantrum because someone got ill. Make sure you advertise that to anyone you date, so they don't make the mistake of thinking you'll stick by them "in sickness and in health" and all that. 
3. Probably a waste of money, but it won't likely make things worse. If you can afford it, might as well.
4. Well, you were throwing caution to the wind the last 17 years. Why not. It's going to be difficult finding a new partner who doesn't have herpes, in a nation where it's estimated that 80% of the population has it and that 90% of them don't know it. It's also going to be difficult to find a partner who wants to marry you with your caveat of "until you get a recurring illness and I decide I'd rather move on."


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Kivlor said:


> Do you know that the one and only time your W engaged in sexual contact with another man is the time she picked this up? Because most people get this when they are kids. Drinking fountains. Swimming pools. Kisses from infected adults. Playing with infected children.


She likely got it through incidental (non-sexual) contact as a child. Obviously, nobody know for sure. 



Kivlor said:


> Okaaaaay... thank you for your weird, personally concocted etymology. Cold sores (fever blisters) were considered common and not viewed as a big deal until the 1980's. The term cold sores goes back a long ways, because it describes the symptoms. The virus itself wasn't officially designated until the 1940's. Before that, in common parlance it was referred to by its symptom--a blister/sore which typically accompanies a fever/illness.


That makes sense. The name is still misleading to me.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Kivlor said:


> You don't have Herpes now because of A) luck and B) low transmission rates. Studies show that in relationships with 1 infected and 1 non-infected partner that ~10% will become infected in any given year. Do you not kiss / make out very often? Because that's where you're at risk pal.


That's true. My wife avoids affection. She said yesterday that she should have kissed me with an oozing fever blister to give it to me orally. Then I could never get it on my genitals. That's still an option. I've actually considered it too. 



Kivlor said:


> Let's look at "your options" list...
> 1. Sure. Or find a way to orgasm with one. Try handjobs or maybe a BJ with a condom on. I'm thinking this isn't as big a deal as you make it out though, if you've only had ~10BJ's in 17 years.


Seriously? You think I haven't tried handjobs? I have tried that and every kind of sex toy I could buy. That and masturbation have failed every time since my injury. Between masturbation and the rare sex with my wife, I had at least 140 orgasms per year before my injury. I would orgasm every time. 100% success rate. Now, I have not had an orgasm this year AT ALL. That is a BIG F-ING DEAL. From 140 to ZERO. I don't think you or anyone else (that can orgasm) is in any place to judge how devastating this has been to me. 



Kivlor said:


> 2. Sure. That's an option. You can end your marriage in a giant temper tantrum because someone got ill. Make sure you advertise that to anyone you date, so they don't make the mistake of thinking you'll stick by them "in sickness and in health" and all that.


A sexless marriage is a violation of wedding vows. That would be the primary reason for ending the marriage. And with respect to the sickness and in health, your view is quite twisted, considering she wants me to give up on treatment and stop seeing doctors. She is the one that asked me to give up. She is the one that gave up on me when I was injured. 




Kivlor said:


> 3. Probably a waste of money, but it won't likely make things worse. If you can afford it, might as well.


I have good insurance and I'm picking it up from the pharmacy tonight.



Kivlor said:


> 4. Well, you were throwing caution to the wind the last 17 years. Why not. It's going to be difficult finding a new partner who doesn't have herpes, in a nation where it's estimated that 80% of the population has it and that 90% of them don't know it.


True



Kivlor said:


> It's also going to be difficult to find a partner who wants to marry you with your caveat of "until you get a recurring illness and I decide I'd rather move on."


*I just want out of a sexless marriage and I don't want genital herpes. But I guess I am asking for too much. *

I don't understand the criticism here. I've had a devastating sexual dysfunction and have stayed faithful to my wife despite 15 years of a sexless marriage and I am the problem?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> I like that idea.


It's the only way I can stand to do oral. The water makes it not so disgusting.

And fwiw, I have the same problem as your wife. My family, too, sl*t-shamed me and I can't get close to a man without it feeling dirty and horrible. But I do it, for my husband, unlike your wife. But I'm here to tell you that, after 38 years of doing so, I now have more hate for myself than I could ever have for him.

Does she need help dealing with her 'programming?' Absolutely. But I've been dealing with said programming for 40+ years and it never goes away. You are who you were raised to be.

But to see you - because YOU aren't getting what you want - be so incredibly antagonistic and mean and dismissive about her, well, it doesn't earn you a lot of points, kwim? 

What I mean is, I really DO get how unhappy you are. But if you're trying to find some way to save your marriage, I'm trying to tell you this won't be it.

If, OTOH, you really do want out and want to find someone else who'll be ok with your baggage, then by all means, go find it. Don't hold your wife hostage in a marriage you don't want. Do the right thing and walk away.

btw, my H loves me intently, despite me not being that great of a wife. We discovered when we were married about 5 years (I was about 26) that I had herpes. I had never even heard of it. Didn't know what it was, how you got it, only that I was in excruciating pain. Doctor explained that I either got it from sexual transactions or picked it up as a kid somehow. I had only had 3 partners before my H, but my previous only real boyfriend was screwing around on me all over the place, so who knows? 

The point is, my H loved me and only me and he took it in stride. He saw me get medicine for it, he trusted me to warn him if I was ever experiencing an 'incident' and he would stay away, and things were fine. 

What I'm trying to say is that it looks to me that, BECAUSE you're not getting the sex you want, you're allowing your own anger to distort how you're viewing this whole thing. And I gotta tell ya, the way you're discussing this here...if you're this way around her? I'm not surprised she's not being more giving. You can't MAKE somebody be who you want. You can only be the person they want to be that way FOR.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Sorry for not understanding that it wasn't ED, OP. You've made such a big deal in this thread about the "Herpes" factor that if the fact the sexual issues were as a result of an untreatable injury seems like a more important factor to include in the original post. I kind of feel like there's more to the injury story though, because on the other thread where you talked more about the injury you said it was relative to certain parts, now you are saying you can't feel your whole penis at all. Which I don't know which one is true, but that makes a big difference. 

Maybe she felt nothing she did was going to help. Who knows, maybe she's depressed about it all too, just in a different way. 

It's not about blame, really - but it seems to me that what you want is for people to validate your choice to leave your wife who in your mind in selfish, unsupportive, and diseased. She's never liked giving oral sex. You were hoping over time she'd open up to more oral and anal sex - she never has been. Ultimately the choices are to attempt compromise, live with it, or leave. 

What would be the point of getting a sex surrogate to save a marriage where you consider your wife terrible and diseased?



> I don't think you or anyone else (that can orgasm) is in any place to judge how devastating this has been to me.


I've probably had a dozen legitimate acknowledgable orgasms my entire sexual life. I just don't think I'm somehow wired right mentally, emotionally, or physically, maybe a blending of all three. So - I sympathize more than others. But what are you going to do about it? Because being angry and being angry at your wife and effectively blaming her for not fixing it isn't getting anywhere.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

KJ_Simmons said:


> Oh good grief man....as others have stated, nearly everybody has it, myself included.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No. I am not infected. I am married. 

Means no sex, no kissing. No way to catch it.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Oral herpes is not considered a STI. You can get it from eating utensils, even.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> Sorry for not understanding that it wasn't ED, OP. You've made such a big deal in this thread about the "Herpes" factor that if the fact the sexual issues were as a result of an untreatable injury seems like a more important factor to include in the original post. I kind of feel like there's more to the injury story though, because on the other thread where you talked more about the injury you said it was relative to certain parts, now you are saying you can't feel your whole penis at all. Which I don't know which one is true, but that makes a big difference.
> 
> Maybe she felt nothing she did was going to help. Who knows, maybe she's depressed about it all too, just in a different way.
> 
> ...


A sex surrogate more than likely has cold sores and possibly more.

I do think this marriage should end though because it can't thrive with a hb who views his wife as disease ridden and dirty. You're not going to get a woman who's not crazy about oral sex to begin with to give bj's with a condom on because her hb finds her too dirty to do it without. 

If they had an otherwise close, loving relationship perhaps, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

I know personally it would make me want to vomit. It may be like you said in that they're simply not compatible. 

Having said that, it's not going to be easy for OP to find a woman who doesn't have cold sores, gives lots of oral and takes lots of anal, is fine with limited PIV and who also wants him. 

Just something to think about while he's calling his wife selfish.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KJ_Simmons (Jan 12, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> Having said that, it's not going to be easy for OP to find a woman who doesn't have cold sores, gives lots of oral and takes lots of anal, is fine with limited PIV and who also wants him.
> 
> Just something to think about while he's calling his wife selfish.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


...mic drop..... :smthumbup:


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Livvie said:


> Oral herpes is not considered a STI. You can get it from eating utensils, even.




Maybe you need to change the places you eat at.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > Oral herpes is not considered a STI. You can get it from eating utensils, even.
> ...


Well I've never had a cold sore so I guess my choices of the places I eat at are just fine. I looked it up and that's what the herpes informational site said. You can get it from drinking fountains, too. Before you tell me I need to choose better drinking fountains to drink from, I'll reiterate that I've never had evidence of oral herpes, and I don't drink from fountains. Don't know why you felt the need to issue a redirecting comment ("maybe you need to...") to me.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

wantshelp said:


> *I just want out of a sexless marriage and I don't want genital herpes. But I guess I am asking for too much.*


What makes you think you will get genital herpes, when you are in a "sexless" marriage?

Considering the seroprevalence of HSV1 and HSV2 throughout the world. You should abstain from having sex with anyone (since condoms won't protect you), for the rest of your life lest you risk getting genital herpes.

That said ever since I have been a vey young child, I have always occasionally gotten cold sores. Yet through all of my longest lasting sexual relationships, 3 years, 1 year and over 20 years. All of which have featured plentiful and very frequent mutual oral sex. Not one of my sexual partners while we have been together (outside of that who knows) has ever had any cold sores, or suffered from genital herpes either (myself included).

Anyway if you think your wife is so vile, why don't you do her a favour and divorce her as soon as you can. Then she might find a more compatible sexual partner, while you will be able to maintain your celibacy to avoid the risk of getting genital herpes. Win win for both of you.



wantshelp said:


> I don't understand the criticism here. I've had a devastating sexual dysfunction and have stayed faithful to my wife despite 15 years of a sexless marriage and I am the problem?


Choosing to stay in a sexless marriage for 15 years is entirely your responsibility.

Putting up with something you don't like, only harms yourself. Self harm hardly warrants much sympathy.

Good luck.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Yes, the Lysine is a good idea. Both the food supplement, and the lysine lip balm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Dr Pepper thing is actually quite easy to explain.

Certain product has certain components such as sugars, artificial sweeteners or flavors or preservatives that trigger HSV outbreaks.

For me, it's canned products (tuna, beans, etc). The preservatives they use in canned product triggers it half the time.

Sun exposure does it half the time too and the worse trigger (and the one I can do nothing about) hormone fluctuations. My menstrual cycle wreaks havoc with the HSV.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Don't listen to the herpes-challenged. Getting it IS a big deal. I don't have it. Maybe I didn't screw enough women when younger. So herpes maybe is a badge if honor. 

I don't believe the water fountain or the fork in a restaurant as a transmission vector.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

blueinbr said:


> Don't listen to the herpes-challenged. Getting it IS a big deal. I don't have it. Maybe I didn't screw enough women when younger. So herpes maybe is a badge if honor.


Interesting that you equate getting herpes with being a sl*t or a horndog, since I have it and I've only had 4 partners.

And interesting that someone who has NOT experienced it is more qualified than one who has experienced it on whether it's a big deal. Now, if you're single and intending to screw a ton of women, I guess it could be a big deal...


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

turnera said:


> Now, if you're single and intending to screw a ton of women, I guess it could be a big deal...



That's still a possibility for me, and for OP. Which is why I recommended he not just "go for it". 

BTW, Why so defensive? Maybe one of the four you slept with was a horndog or had sex with a slvt before you.

Webmd says the more sex partners you have, the more likely you are to get it. That's what I said.


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## eawards (Mar 2, 2014)

I know this is going to sound insensitive. I am usually much more sensitive than this. You need to get over this silliness and stop acting like such a victim/baby. 

If you are looking for a reason to leave your wife than yes this is as good as any and you have all of our permission. However; if you love her you will let this go. 

Tonight, there are parents who learned that there children have a terminal illness. There are husband's and wives who lost their spouse whom they love TODAY! and you my friend are worried that you may get a cold sore? Get some perspective on life.

I slept with the wrong girl 30 years ago at the age of 17 while in the Army and cought genital herpes. It kind of sucked yes, but not as bad as the soldier in my unit who died right? I have lived with this nuisance (and let's be clear, it's a nuisance) and I have fared fine. I am divorced now and am with a wonderful woman. I take antivirals and she has not gotten it, but maybe she will or maybe she won't. Yes I told her about what I had before sex and your wife failed in this regard. Yes you have been wronged be her not saying anything , but come on. Life is too short to sweat the small stuff my friend. If you lived her you would not care. If you don't love her than get out, but don't use this silky reason as "the reason". Man up and do the right thing. You think she asked for this? 

And I'm sorry but if you find yourself single, it's not the hsv1 that will reduce the pool of interested woman nor is it the ED (I have that too). It's the whiny attitude that will turn off any high value woman. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> Don't listen to the herpes-challenged. Getting it IS a big deal. I don't have it. Maybe I didn't screw enough women when younger. So herpes maybe is a badge if honor.
> 
> I don't believe the water fountain or the fork in a restaurant as a transmission vector.


You keep saying you don't have herpes. Have you had the blood work done to test for HSV?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

eawards said:


> I know this is going to sound insensitive. I am usually much more sensitive than this. You need to get over this silliness and stop acting like such a victim/baby.
> 
> If you are looking for a reason to leave your wife than yes this is as good as any and you have all of our permission. However; if you love her you will let this go.
> 
> ...




Well, compared to kids dying, everything posted on this website is trivial. Who cares about a wife banging her coworker when children are dying today? She's only having some fun! No one is physically being hurt. And the emotional pain is just in one's head. 

And if you get herpes from a cheating wife, no big deal. 

Don't trivialize someone else's pain.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

eawards said:


> I know this is going to sound insensitive. I am usually much more sensitive than this. You need to get over this silliness and stop acting like such a victim/baby.


I get that people died today. I get that people died for my freedom and I appreciate that everyday. But, I think it's unfair for you to judge me for wanting a fulfilling love life. That is what most men (and women) want in marriage and finding that kind of love and fulfillment is EXACTLY what makes life worth living. At least for me. Maybe you have other priorities. Maybe it's kids or money or fame or cars or sex. Whatever you are compelled to live for is your own choice and your freedom. 



eawards said:


> nor is it the ED (I have that too)


ED has a variety of treatments with pills that usually work and surgery that always works (excluding complications). And with ED you can still have orgasms. So, although I get that your situation bears some similarities to me, my problem is unique, and from my perspective, far worse. Of course that is subjective, but I've temporarily had ED from medicine side effects, so I know what that's like. 

Also, you should consider having your girlfriend tested. There is a good chance she is already exposed. If so, it would set her mind at ease that she can't get it because the previous exposure confers immunity. I'm sure you would still take the anti-viral, but you wouldn't have to worry about breakouts if she is immune from a previous exposure.


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## eawards (Mar 2, 2014)

I'm not judging you for wanting a fulfilling sex life. I am judging you for making a mountain out of a molehill. If I missed the part where she cheated on you then forget everything I wrote. 

If I am correct in my understanding , you are having trouble because the woman you love gets cold sores once it twice a year. 

Or is the real problem that she won't give you enough sex oral or otherwise? Which in my opinion is grounds to end the marriage in and of itself regardless of the trivial fact that she gets a visit from the nuisance monster twice a year. 

I think you have two issues. One real and one created by you in your head. I suggest you focus in the real one. That one is you are not getting enough sex. You are not getting your needs met. 

The herpes situation is just background noise. If you did not have this ED problem and wifey was chasing you for sex every night, you would not even care about her cold sores. So clarify what the problem really is then you can solve it or make a decision to move on. 



Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

wantshelp said:


> Nope. I thought I wouldn't have to worry about STI because she'd never had sex before. I didn't give a crap that she was a virgin. In fact, it was more of a negative because I would have preferred someone with more sex experience. She actually picked me and she was the only person I ever dated and ever had sex with.
> 
> I feel I was duped because she initiated sex frequently, engaged in sex almost daily, and was open minded about different sex acts -- before marriage. Then within months after getting married she started rejecting me and within a year I found myself in a sexless marriage of less than 10x/year. Our therapist called it a "bait-and-switch." Her words, not mine. Aside from that, irrespective of how she got it Herpes, it was HER responsibility to inform sex partners that she carries the Herpes virus. PERIOD. I don't give a crap that she got it at age 3. If she contracted HIV at birth from her mother and took all the meds to control it, but didn't inform sex partners I guess that would be OK too? I'm sorry, but you are never going to convince me that it was not her responsibility to inform sex partners of possible life-long infections. It was her responsibility to understand what she had. And, I have the right to be offered this information and given the choice before engaging in sexual activity. I was absolutely duped.
> 
> ...


you really are full of crap. you are blaming her for not telling you something that she didn't know. did she know that cold sores could be spread to your genitals? in your own words, she did not. 

if i were in her shoes, i would be out the door.

i have a genetic condition. this particular genetic condition prevents me from ever being able to build large muscles. ill never be a body builder. didnt know i had it until after i got married. with your logic, my wife should be furious at me for not letting her know that i had a genetic condition that could be passed to her children. 

by the way, you should do more research. its extremely rare to get infected with the herpes virus more than once, or in more than one location. so basically, if you manage to get herpes simplex type 1 on your lips from kissing your wife, you will likely never get any kind of genital herpes. 

think about that.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> you really are full of crap. you are blaming her for not telling you something that she didn't know. did she know that cold sores could be spread to your genitals? in your own words, she did not.
> 
> i have a genetic condition. this particular genetic condition prevents me from ever being able to build large muscles. ill never be a body builder. didnt know i had it until after i got married. with your logic, my wife should be furious at me for not letting her know that i had a genetic condition that could be passed to her children.


I am not "full of crap". I'm sorry about your condition, but that situation is *completely *different. *My wife DID know she had oral herpes* (cold sores, fever blisters), but never bothered to educate herself on what the transmission possibilities were. It's like if you knew all your life that you have genetic disorder X and you didn't bother to learn about the implications. Your situation is completely different. You had no clue what it was, despite having seen doctors and you have ZERO risk of passing it to your partner. So you acted with due care and responsibility. 

Let me use a better example. Let's say I have strep throat. But, I go to work anyway because I think I know what I'm doing or was embarrassed to ask a doctor. Then I give all my coworkers strep because I had no idea that it was easily spread. Personally, I think the person with strep had a responsibility to those around them to understand the transmission ability of whatever they have and take care. 

The difference is that I believe there is a reasonable expectation that when someone has a medical issue, that they make some effort to understand it and the implications for transmission to others. Particularly when you could give it to your family and it is incurable. The effort could have been as little as reading the CDC web page on oral herpes (cold sores, fever blisters). 

Of course, these are my expectations of others. I expect my spouse to know not to kiss me when she has strep or an oozing cold sore. I expect my wife to not share her drink when she has strep or cold sores. I assume when you got your diagnosis you told your wife what the implications were, right? Of course you did. My wife never saw a doctor about it or bothered to google it. 

I hope you can see the difference.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

eawards said:


> I am judging you for making a mountain out of a molehill.


I understand that you think genital herpes is a molehill sized nuisance. Maybe it's not such a big deal. But, I think everyone gets to make that judgement for themselves. For some it might be a deal breaker to have genital herpes. You responsibly told your girlfriend that you had herpes before you had sex. And she had the chance to make the choice to live with the risk or not. That's the right thing to do. I didn't have that choice. What if you knew you had genital herpes, but didn't think you could spread it and told your girlfriend not to worry. Then after getting married, your partner realizes that you put them at risk. I think your partner would have good reason to be mad. 



eawards said:


> Or is the real problem that she won't give you enough sex oral or otherwise? Which in my opinion is grounds to end the marriage in and of itself regardless of the trivial fact that she gets a visit from the nuisance monster twice a year.


Yes, you're right. The sexless marriage is the bigger problem. And to me is just as bad as an extramarital affair. But, if the result of a sexless marriage is divorce, then avoiding genital herpes is relevant for me. 



eawards said:


> If ... wifey was chasing you for sex every night, you would not even care about her cold sores.


Probably true.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

wantshelp said:


> The sexless marriage is the bigger problem. And to me is just as bad as an extramarital affair.
> .




Best post I read all year.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

On the one hand, you're a DB for holding this over your wife's head. On the other hand, if this is what you need to man up and escape from your sexless marriage, then good for you.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Are you sure the cold sore thing isn't just another excuse for her not to engage in oral with you? 
And are you sure that your anger is justified over all this? 
You've seen her with these sores for years right? But only expressing anger now? 

The issues here are deeper than herpes, 
1. she doesn't want sex with you as much as you want. 
She's always been LD but are you mad that she did oral for other guy? 

2. you find it difficult to climax, it's a physical problem and you've tried physical solutions that haven't worked, you're frustrated, understandably so and are maybe looking to leave the marriage because it looks like an easy solution. 

Sometimes orgasms can be achieved via imagination in the mind, it does work and can be achieved. 
What happened to your sex therapy appointments? 
Did things get better for a while? 
I think you and your wife should definitely try some tantric exercises and other things. 
If she's willing to work with you that is. 

It's okay to be frustrated, hey we have all been there, but make sure that you channel it for a solution and a way to find some happiness. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

MrsAldi said:


> Are you sure the cold sore thing isn't just another excuse for her not to engage in oral with you?


I don't think so. I think she grew up thinking that giving a man a blow job is the ultimate way of selfishly treating a woman like an object. 



MrsAldi said:


> And are you sure that your anger is justified over all this?


No, I'm not. It's probably misdirected from years of rejection. 



MrsAldi said:


> You've seen her with these sores for years right? But only expressing anger now?


Yes, I had no idea it can cause genital herpes until recently. I didn't know what they were. Nobody in my family ever had them. 




MrsAldi said:


> She's always been LD but are you mad that she did oral for other guy?


Yes, she is LD, but she was very HD before marriage. I really don't care that she gave another guy oral. I think both of us would have benefited from more sexual experience before marriage. I think she was scarred because after that blow job, he came out as gay. So, I think she has baggage surrounding the BJ, no question. 



MrsAldi said:


> Sometimes orgasms can be achieved via imagination in the mind, it does work and can be achieved.


I believe you.


MrsAldi said:


> What happened to your sex therapy appointments?


Still going for 2 years now. We go together every week for 2 hours. 



MrsAldi said:


> Did things get better for a while?


Yes and no. She gave me a few BJs to completion which were amazing. Then I found out about the risk of genital herpes and am reevaluating whether I want to risk it. 



MrsAldi said:


> I think you and your wife should definitely try some tantric exercises and other things.


That's a great idea. We tried edging but it didn't work and after an hour of avoiding climax, I couldn't climax at all and had "blue balls" for the rest of the day. So, my technique clearly needs work. 



MrsAldi said:


> It's okay to be frustrated, hey we have all been there, but make sure that you channel it for a solution and a way to find some happiness.


Words from the wise...


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

wantshelp said:


> I am not "full of crap". I'm sorry about your condition, but that situation is *completely *different. *My wife DID know she had oral herpes* (cold sores, fever blisters), but never bothered to educate herself on what the transmission possibilities were. It's like if you knew all your life that you have genetic disorder X and you didn't bother to learn about the implications. Your situation is completely different. You had no clue what it was, despite having seen doctors and you have ZERO risk of passing it to your partner. So you acted with due care and responsibility.
> 
> Let me use a better example. Let's say I have strep throat. But, I go to work anyway because I think I know what I'm doing or was embarrassed to ask a doctor. Then I give all my coworkers strep because I had no idea that it was easily spread. Personally, I think the person with strep had a responsibility to those around them to understand the transmission ability of whatever they have and take care.
> 
> ...


i find this post interesting. im assuming your wife had always known it by the common name of cold sore, yes? probably heard just enough about it to know that its a thing that people get from time to time?

as for my genetic condition, i guess i could have done some research into possible genetic conditions that make people skinny, but why would i? what i knew about what long distance running does to a metabolism was enough to make me think i already knew why i couldn't put on muscle.

what i find even more insane than the thought of you getting ticked off at her for not knowing more about cold sores is your own hypocrisy. apparently it took you 17 years to even bother looking up a condition that your wife has had all her life. and yet, you are pissed off because she didn't either?

that doesn't make any sense to me. i have probably done far more research into my wife's medical conditions than she has, because i care about her. 
so yeah, i say again, you are full of crap. either you really are that hypocritical, or something else entirely has you all worked up and you haven't stated it yet.

and like i said before, the best way to avoid genital herpes is to get an outbreak on some other part of your body. if you get your first outbreak on your face, its damn near unheard of to EVER get it on your genitals. 

if you want to leave your sexless marriage because it sucks, then by all means, do so. nobody should stick around in a miserable marriage. if you want to use the cold sores as an excuse to end the marriage, then go for it. good luck getting any sympathy.

the very title of your thread is crap. think about it. it implies that you need advice on how to deal with something that you have already been dealing with for nearly two decades. 

if you want advice on how to change your sexless marriage, we can help with that. so why dont you tell us what you REALLY want?


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

wantshelp said:


> I don't think so. I think she grew up thinking that giving a man a blow job is the ultimate way of selfishly treating a woman like an object.


You've probably answered this before but does she like to receive oral? 

I can understand her, my husband tried a porno style oral move and it did make me feel like an object, but with therapy I managed to understand it as his male sexuality. 



> Yes, she is LD, but she was very HD before marriage. I really don't care that she gave another guy oral. I think both of us would have benefited from more sexual experience before marriage. I think she was scarred because after that blow job, he came out as gay. So, I think she has baggage surrounding the BJ, no question.


The most beautiful woman in the world could have given that guy a BJ and he wouldn't enjoy it because he fancies men, he wanted a man. He didn't turn gay from being with her! 
Discussing that in therapy might help. 



> Still going for 2 years now. We go together every week for 2 hours.


What happens, do you both discuss issues and then agree to trying something to work on? 



> Yes and no. She gave me a few BJs to completion which were amazing. Then I found out about the risk of genital herpes and am reevaluating whether I want to risk it.


Check this out with your doctor but from what I've read online, herpes has no cure but is only contagious when there is a flare up, so once she feels it coming on, you can both quit oral for a while. 

Also if you do go back to oral, make sure to remind each other and initiate often, sometimes there will be rejection but when there is, set up a date or schedule for the next time. 
Instead of getting frustrated, be positive and look forward to the next date, in the meantime enjoy some tantric solo sessions! 



> That's a great idea. We tried edging but it didn't work and after an hour of avoiding climax, I couldn't climax at all and had "blue balls" for the rest of the day. So, my technique clearly needs work.


I think you both could benefit from relaxing and fantasising. 
Try making it achieving pleasure rather than achieving orgasm. 

One of the techniques in my therapy was imagining that my husband was touching me, an issue that I cannot seem to do yet IRL but it's working and I believe we will achieve it someday soon. 

For you focus on enjoying the feel of pleasure in your mind and see can it be achieved in real life. 
It sounds absolutely ridiculous but it does work! 

My experience with therapy is that things don't happen magically, a miracle will not happen, it takes work and it's bloody frustrating! 
Silver lining is that you have a wife who's participating in therapy with you. Some folks have spouses who refuse to acknowledge the LD problems etc, think of that when you're feeling rejected or frustrated. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> what i find even more insane than the thought of you getting ticked off at her for not knowing more about cold sores is your own hypocrisy. apparently it took you 17 years to even bother looking up a condition that your wife has had all her life. and yet, you are pissed off because she didn't either?


She gets very defensive about me inquiring about her health and she had previously assured me that she has had these all her life and she has it under control and I have nothing to worry about. So YES, believe it or not I actually took her word for it and trusted her for the next 15 years. Up until then, BJs were brief and rare. Then when I got injured almost 2 years ago, I suggested exploring other ways of having sex (including BJs) so that I could have an orgasm. So, I started reading about toys, positions, and other stuff online. THAT is when I came across the fact that I could get genital herpes from a BJ. 

To be honest, I am growing tired of your accusations. Generally, TAM is a helpful, sympathetic community of folks struggling with deeply personal problems. In contrast, I see little value in what you are offering right now. I have been brutally honest with this and all you do is insult me and call my post crap, my life crap, my marriage crap, and my title crap. If you don't believe what I'm saying, then I don't want or need your advice. If you want to make yourself feel better by beating up on someone with a devastating sexual dysfunction and a sexless marriage, I would appreciate it if you just found someone else. I'm not answering any more of your accusations.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@wantshelp, I know others have asked but you don't ever truly answer the following question....why are still married? 

You obviously don't like your wife. You definitely have little respect for her. Worst of all, you feel she's spent the entirety of your marriage lying to you. 

I don't know what's keeping you from leaving her? Not saying your chances of finding someone that meets all of your requirements is good but your chances of meeting that person while married to your wife are nil.

Here's the thing, you can blame your wife for all your woes for only so long. Eventually, you'll only have yourself to blame for choosing to stay miserable.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

MrsAldi said:


> You've probably answered this before but does she like to receive oral?


Yes, she enjoys it. But has NEVER asked for it or even suggested it (like pushing my head down playfully). She always says no, it's dirty. It's not actually dirty though (like a period or something). She means it like in general privates are gross. So, I did it for her one time and now I just do it whenever she lets me. 




MrsAldi said:


> The most beautiful woman in the world could have given that guy a BJ and he wouldn't enjoy it because he fancies men, he wanted a man. He didn't turn gay from being with her!
> Discussing that in therapy might help.


I could not agree more. We've discussed it in therapy, but I know it still lingers in her mind... 




MrsAldi said:


> What happens, do you both discuss issues and then agree to trying something to work on?


We have a therapist that specializes in Imago therapy. So we take turns talking about our feelings with the partner periodically mirroring. With respect to homework, she was given a few assignments to be the initiator of sex. She never did the homework. My gut tells me that she took offense to the suggestion of someone telling her to have sex. Like she is a prostitute and the therapist is the pimp, making her have sex. 




MrsAldi said:


> Check this out with your doctor but from what I've read online, herpes has no cure but is only contagious when there is a flare up, so once she feels it coming on, you can both quit oral for a while.


A doctor visit is what sparked this thread. Unfortunately, my dermatologist confirmed that the herpes virus does shed when there is no sore visible. I read the same on a CDC website. 



MrsAldi said:


> Also if you do go back to oral, make sure to remind each other and initiate often, sometimes there will be rejection but when there is, set up a date or schedule for the next time.


This has been A HUGE sore point. The therapist suggested rainchecks. But when she rejected me again, she doesn't want to commit to any time frame. She argues, "what's the big deal? We have our whole life to have sex, it will happen eventually..." To me I think it's like the homework. She will not commit to anything. She says it has to happen naturally and be spontaneous. I recall in therapy saying that "if I waited for her to spontaneously initiate, it would happen less than 6 times a year." My wife nodded in agreement. 



MrsAldi said:


> Instead of getting frustrated, be positive and look forward to the next date, in the meantime enjoy some tantric solo sessions!


I love your positive attitude! How refreshing! I need to think about this. I can't orgasm through masturbation, but maybe I can just look at it like meditating? 



MrsAldi said:


> I think you both could benefit from relaxing and fantasising.
> Try making it achieving pleasure rather than achieving orgasm.


Our therapist has said the exact same thing to us and I think we agree. Unfortunately, my wife claims that she does not fantasize about sex. She is very adamant about that. I'm not sure what to make of it though. 




MrsAldi said:


> One of the techniques in my therapy was imagining that my husband was touching me, an issue that I cannot seem to do yet IRL but it's working and I believe we will achieve it someday soon.


THIS is a solid idea. 



MrsAldi said:


> Silver lining is that you have a wife who's participating in therapy with you. Some folks have spouses who refuse to acknowledge the LD problems etc, think of that when you're feeling rejected or frustrated.


You're right that is certainly progress from where we started.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

blueinbr said:


> That's still a possibility for me, and for OP. Which is why I recommended he not just "go for it".
> 
> BTW, Why so defensive? Maybe one of the four you slept with was a horndog or had sex with a slvt before you.
> 
> Webmd says the more sex partners you have, the more likely you are to get it. That's what I said.


Every ONE of the partners I had was a horndog. In fact, I haven't met one yet who isn't one. 

I was referring to your wording.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> @wantshelp, I know others have asked but you don't ever truly answer the following question....why are still married?


My wife is my best friend. I can't imagine life without her. She's a great mom, and I love the family we have together. But at the same time, I have felt completely starved for affection with her. Since I put the ring on her finger, she doesn't like to touch, or be playful or just screw because the mood strikes. Because it never strikes for her anymore. The romance for her seemed to die when I put the ring on her finger - no joke. She acknowledged this in therapy. I believe premarital sex was fun because it was naughty and defiant in her mind. Then when we married, it felt like a chore for her. That's my impression from our discussions. I feel like I married a friend instead of a lover, but I feel like I am in it too deep now. I still cling to the possibility that if I just understood her better, we could both be happy. But, it's hard to continue trying. And, I promised her dad that I would take care of her. And breaking a promise like that would literally break me. It's not who I am. 

I know some people won't like that answer, but it's what is going on in my head. I know some people think I am not asserting myself as a man or I am a DB for not leaving. Or that I am making this all up and am full of crap. Whatever...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> My wife DID know she had oral herpes[/B] (cold sores, fever blisters), but never bothered to educate herself on what the transmission possibilities were.


That is NOT what you told us. You told us that she has had cold sores all her life but NEVER realized it was herpes. THAT is NOT her fault. I dare you to find five people who get cold sores who took ANY time to see if it was even contagious, let alone something to do with a sexually transmitted genre.

You hate your marriage so much, just do your wife a favor and get the hell out of your marriage. But blaming her - and likely treating her like crap because of it - for something YOU have decided she should have done when she didn't even know any better, shows little integrity on your part.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Wow. I am sorry OP that there are so many haters and unsupportive people on your thread. Including one that called you a DB, which is a bannable offense.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> That is NOT what you told us. You told us that she has had cold sores all her life but NEVER realized it was herpes. THAT is NOT her fault.


OK, I think you are confused here. My wife NEVER called it "Oral Herpes". She always called it a "cold sore". I call it "oral herpes" now because I don't like the term "cold sore" because I think it's not descriptive or very accurate. She always knew she had cold sores but never realized it was herpes. Got it? 



turnera said:


> I dare you to find five people who get cold sores who took ANY time to see if it was even contagious, let alone something to do with a sexually transmitted genre.


Thanks, you made my point EXACTLY. If people don't know that cold sores are Herpes it's partly because we are calling them "cold sores" instead of "oral herpes". People should know. I have no clue how common this knowledge is, it's a great question. 

*
So I am asking the TAM audience. For those of you with cold sores, how many of you had no clue (until reading this thread) that cold sores were the Herpes Virus? *


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

wantshelp said:


> My wife is my best friend. I can't imagine life without her. She's a great mom, and I love the family we have together. But at the same time, I have felt completely starved for affection with her. Since I put the ring on her finger, she doesn't like to touch, or be playful or just screw because the mood strikes. Because it never strikes for her anymore. The romance for her seemed to die when I put the ring on her finger - no joke. She acknowledged this in therapy. I believe premarital sex was fun because it was naughty and defiant in her mind. Then when we married, it felt like a chore for her. That's my impression from our discussions. I feel like I married a friend instead of a lover, but I feel like I am in it too deep now. I still cling to the possibility that if I just understood her better, we could both be happy. But, it's hard to continue trying. And, I promised her dad that I would take care of her. And breaking a promise like that would literally break me. It's not who I am.
> 
> I know some people won't like that answer, but it's what is going on in my head. I know some people think I am not asserting myself as a man or I am a DB for not leaving. Or that I am making this all up and am full of crap. Whatever...


Then it looks like you've made the decision to stay in your marriage. 

In order for you to live a happier life you need to let go of your resentment towards her. This means you have to stop blaming your wife for the perceived wrongs and her lack of sexual desire. Take responsibility for your decision and actions. Stop trying to control things/people you have no control over. 

You'll never be content as long as you continue to see yourself as a victim.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

wantshelp said:


> My wife is my best friend. I can't imagine life without her. She's a great mom, and I love the family we have together. But at the same time, I have felt completely starved for affection with her. Since I put the ring on her finger, she doesn't like to touch, or be playful or just screw because the mood strikes. Because it never strikes for her anymore. The romance for her seemed to die when I put the ring on her finger - no joke. She acknowledged this in therapy. I believe premarital sex was fun because it was naughty and defiant in her mind. Then when we married, it felt like a chore for her. That's my impression from our discussions. I feel like I married a friend instead of a lover, but I feel like I am in it too deep now. I still cling to the possibility that if I just understood her better, we could both be happy. But, it's hard to continue trying. And, I promised her dad that I would take care of her. And breaking a promise like that would literally break me. It's not who I am.
> 
> I know some people won't like that answer, but it's what is going on in my head. I know some people think I am not asserting myself as a man or I am a DB for not leaving. Or that I am making this all up and am full of crap. Whatever...




You're just rationalizing staying because you are too weak to leave. Like me. The resentment doesn't go away. 

You wouldn't be happy. Another victim of the bait and switch on sex. 

Imo you will eventually cheat. Or she will eventually just leave. Just a matter of which happens first.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> Yes, I had no idea it can cause genital herpes until recently. I didn't know what they were.


But you're mad at her because SHE didn't know it either?



> Still going for 2 years now. We go together every week for 2 hours.


Wait, what? You've been dragging her to SEX therapy for TWO YEARS, every WEEK, for 2 HOURS? 220+ hours of sex therapy? Because YOU don't like the sex you're (not) getting? 

What does SHE think about that?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> OK, I think you are confused here. My wife NEVER called it "Oral Herpes". She always called it a "cold sore". I call it "oral herpes" now because I don't like the term "cold sore" because I think it's not descriptive or very accurate. She always knew she had cold sores but never realized it was herpes. Got it?


Then why are you blaming her for not WARNING you?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> So I am asking the TAM audience. For those of you with cold sores, how many of you had no clue (until reading this thread) that cold sores were the Herpes Virus?


My H has had cold sores since I've known him; 40 years. Not ONCE have we discussed that he might have herpes. Even after we both discovered that I had herpes! HIS cold sores went away when he stopped drinking Dr. Pepper. We still HAVEN'T looked into whether his cold sores had anything to do with herpes. Because we didn't care! Why didn't we care about my herpes? Why didn't we think to find out where his cold sores came from or what they would do? Because we were married and it wasn't going to go anywhere!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

blueinbr said:


> You're just rationalizing staying because you are too weak to leave. Like me. The resentment doesn't go away.
> 
> You wouldn't be happy. Another victim of the bait and switch on sex.
> 
> Imo you will eventually cheat. Or she will eventually just leave. Just a matter of which happens first.


blue, are you regretting choosing to stay? You haven't said so until today.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

wantshelp said:


> Yes, she enjoys it. But has NEVER asked for it or even suggested it (like pushing my head down playfully). She always says no, it's dirty. It's not actually dirty though (like a period or something). She means it like in general privates are gross. So, I did it for her one time and now I just do it whenever she lets me.


Yeah I used think that way too, I don't know how us women got the idea that our vaginas are gross. 
That is something that she has to work on. 
Did she get any help from the therapy about this? 



> We have a therapist that specializes in Imago therapy. So we take turns talking about our feelings with the partner periodically mirroring. With respect to homework, she was given a few assignments to be the initiator of sex. She never did the homework. My gut tells me that she took offense to the suggestion of someone telling her to have sex. Like she is a prostitute and the therapist is the pimp, making her have sex.


This could be a red flag, you mentioned in another comment that your wife's attitude towards sex changed after the marriage, how can a person be really into sex unmarried but change after a ring goes on? Have you ever asked her why? 




> This has been A HUGE sore point. The therapist suggested rainchecks. But when she rejected me again, she doesn't want to commit to any time frame. She argues, "what's the big deal? We have our whole life to have sex, it will happen eventually..." To me I think it's like the homework. She will not commit to anything. She says it has to happen naturally and be spontaneous. I recall in therapy saying that "if I waited for her to spontaneously initiate, it would happen less than 6 times a year." My wife nodded in agreement.


It won't happen eventually if she doesn't put the commitment in. 
Be careful not to push or except things to magically happen but I don't see a person who is willing to work with you yet. 
But discuss with her in therapy what needs to be done to make sex natural and spontaneous, like lots of romance, kissing etc



> I can't orgasm through masturbation, but maybe I can just look at it like meditating?
> 
> Our therapist has said the exact same thing to us and I think we agree. Unfortunately, my wife claims that she does not fantasize about sex. She is very adamant about that. I'm not sure what to make of it though.


Work on yourself with the meditation, do research into different types, maybe that will make things better for your wife, I'm sure she feels frustrated about not being able to bring you to climax, like such husbands do when their wives cannot orgasm via PIV. 

Maybe she doesn't fantasise about sex but something else, romance or something? 

You have to figure out if your wife is doing therapy just to keep you from leaving or over guilt about your injury or does she really eventually want a fulfilling sexual future with you. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You don't seem to know a thing about what your wife wants, hates, or wishes for.


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

OP, I haven't read the whole thread. But I am wondering if you realize just how common the herpes virus is. 

One in five adolescents/adults are infected with HSV-2 (genital) herpes. And 90% do not know it. NINETY PERCENT! Most do not have symptoms.

50-80% of people are infected with HSV-1 (oral) herpes.

Honestly, in a marriage (like turnera stated), why is it such a big deal? It's not going anywhere. Right? So use some reasonable methods to avoid sexual contact when she has an active cold sore and use a condom. All good.

If YOU can't perform with a condom, then that is something to get looked at. You are painting her into a corner for something that she has no control over, when YOU need to take control of your end of things. It is convenient to blame her for not being able to give you oral whenever you want, without putting you at risk. But you are half of this equation and you need to get your ED issues evaluated and work on those as well. Lots of people (obviously - see numbers above) have good sex lives with hsv-1 and hsv-2. Also, if you ever DO get divorced, clearly there are many people that already have HSV-2 (the genital kind!) and don't even know it. There are even web sites for people with the herpes virus who want to meet others in the same situation.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> Wait, what? You've been dragging her to SEX therapy for TWO YEARS, every WEEK, for 2 HOURS? 220+ hours of sex therapy? Because YOU don't like the sex you're (not) getting?
> 
> What does SHE think about that?


Controlling?

Maybe she's scared of him?


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

When your doctor showed surprise at your negative blood test - I can see why. So many people test positive for HSV that the CDC doesn't even include the test in an STD workup - they called it distressing because almost everyone was testing positive. 

I'm 47, have been married 22 years. I just tested positive for Type 1 on a blood test. I've never had a cold sore in my life. My husband said his mom has type 1, first I heard of it. I am assuming he got it from his mom and gave it to me? But who even knows. He's never had a cold sore either. He said - there's no way to know. We both have it and I'm not planning on being with anyone but you so does it matter at this point? (This is when I was breaking the news that I'd had a positive test for Type 1)

Type 1 doesn't thrive in the genitals. It's not at all the same as having type 2 on the genitals. If you did contract it you might only have one breakout. You might never have a breakout. You might only be at risk if you are getting oral and you have an abrasion or cut on your penis at the time, a place the virus can enter. 

I have a friend who is so shamed by her type 1 that she can't even say cold sore. She says fever blister. She gets embarrassed very easily. She can't even go to the gynecologist yearly because she's so traumatized. She's been married longer than I have and she had no clue she could give her DH a few oral type 1 virus. Until we were talking about it a few weeks ago. So women really can try to just ignore these things and not look into them because they are so ashamed. And why shouldn't they be! Look at all the comments inferring women who have HSV are practically untouchables. 

But honestly - you are kind of going round and round here. She doesn't like going down on you. You can only get the virus from her going down on you. She doesn't want to give and you are scared to receive. Seems like that problem canceled itself out. 

You have every right to divorce your wife and find a more suitable partner. I've been on this board long enough to realise their is NO CURE for a sexual mismatch. There is compromise. There is empathy. But it's pretty impossible she's going to have some spring awakening and be highly sexual. 

My DH and I have a compromised mismatch. And it's been enough that I'm satisfied. I'm good with how things are. We're never going to have sex daily. We're never going to try all kinds of new things. He's never going to start calling me beautiful, hot, sexy, etc. He's never going to want to bring toys and variety into the bed. I had to accept all of those things. But we were able to negotiate a compromise and I'm happy with it. 

If you are unable to negotiate a compromise you have 3 choices. Stay in the sexless marriage and try to make the best of it. Go outside your marriage for sexual fulfillment. Divorce and find a more suitable partner. Everyone that finds their way to this board has those exact same choices. What does everyone want? For their spouse to become sexually charged. Of course everyone wants that. But that is just not an option at the end of the day. Wanting it doesn't create it. We have the choices we have.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

MissScarlett said:


> If you are unable to negotiate a compromise you have 3 choices. Stay in the sexless marriage and try to make the best of it. Go outside your marriage for sexual fulfillment. Divorce and find a more suitable partner. Everyone that finds their way to this board has those exact same choices. What does everyone want? For their spouse to become sexually charged. Of course everyone wants that. But that is just not an option at the end of the day. Wanting it doesn't create it. We have the choices we have.


You forgot the 4th choice: stay and remain miserable and complain bitterly all the time but do nothing about it.

That is one of the wonderful parts of the Internet. In the past, if you kept griping about the same thing over and over and never doing anything about it, your small circle of friends would get annoyed and tell you to stop mentioning it if you aren't going to do anything about it. And so you would have to stop griping and you would lose griping as a crutch to medicate your discontent. Then maybe you might decide to do something about whatever is bothering you.

But today, with the Internet, there is a practically limitless supply of people to sympathize with your complaints. So even if some people get tired of hearing you complain, there are always new posters or new web sites where you can turn for sympathy. This provides an endless supply of psychic support, eliminating the need to ever do anything about what is bothering you. Stay and gripe is now a much more stable choice over the long term than it was in the past.

Some may see that as a bad thing. Those of us choosing to remain in limbo forever see it as progress.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Hope Shimmers said:


> OP, I haven't read the whole thread. But I am wondering if you realize just how common the herpes virus is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's a big deal because marriages are not permanent. @turnera is a poor example because she should have left her H 30 years ago. Did she stay in the marriage because she had herpes? IDK. 

OP doesn't want herpes and wants to take action to prevent it. Webmd says the virus does not survive on non living surfaces so I don't buy that water fountains are a cause. 

I wouldn't date or marry a woman with herpes. All you pro-herpes can get together.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> It's a big deal because marriages are not permanent. @turnera is a poor example because she should have left her H 30 years ago. Did she stay in the marriage because she had herpes? IDK.
> 
> OP doesn't want herpes and wants to take action to prevent it. Webmd says the virus does not survive on non living surfaces so I don't buy that water fountains are a cause.
> 
> I wouldn't date or marry a woman with herpes. All you pro-herpes can get together.


Blue, I asked you this before but you didn't answer. How do you know you're not one of the 80-90% of the population with hsv 1 or 2? 

Unless you've specifically been tested for it, you can't say you don't have it. That goes for everyone you come into contact with on an intimate level (kissing, hugging, skin to skin contact).

Considering that approximately 90% of those who do carry the virus are asymptomatic, saying stuff like 'I'd never date or marry someone with herpes' would mean that you'd have to ask every one of your dates and loved ones whether or not they have had blood work to test for hsv. And honestly, who the he!! is going to voluntarily test for something that carries such a negative stigma when they show no symptoms?


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> It's a big deal because marriages are not permanent. @turnera is a poor example because she should have left her H 30 years ago. Did she stay in the marriage because she had herpes? IDK.
> 
> OP doesn't want herpes and wants to take action to prevent it. Webmd says the virus does not survive on non living surfaces so I don't buy that water fountains are a cause.
> 
> I wouldn't date or marry a woman with herpes. All you pro-herpes can get together.


Nobody is pro-herpes. You completely missed my point.

If he wants to take action to prevent it, I suggested ways to do that. I also suggested that he not blame his wife for something that is not under her control, and that he take care of the issues that ARE under his control.

Many adults test positive for herpes, and 90% of them are asymptomatic. So do you demand that everyone you date take a herpes test?

And BTW, do you know if YOU test positive?


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Hope Shimmers said:


> I also suggested that he not blame his wife for something that is not under her control, and that he take care of the issues that ARE under his control.


I don't blame my wife for *having *HSV. That would not make any sense. And I would not blame her if she exhibited no symptoms. But that is not the case with me. My wife exhibited symptoms, knew that it was a cold sore, but failed to disclose the risk it poses to me, her sex partner. I blame her for carelessly exposing me to something without warning and without giving me a choice. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> Many adults test positive for herpes, and 90% of them are asymptomatic. So do you demand that everyone you date take a herpes test?


If they are asymptomatic, I would agree that getting tested between every partner is unreasonable. But, for a sexually active person, it's reasonable to add the HSV1/2 test to your annual blood workup, but I don't think I would get a test for each partner, unless I knew I'd been exposed. But, if someone is symptomatic, absolutely, I would expect them to get tested to confirm and notify their partner of how they may be impacted. And I expect the same for people infected with HIV or HPV, or anything else. 

Here is the Bottom Line: 
If you know you have an infection (strep, HIV, HSV, flu, whatever), it is your responsibility (if you interact with people) to understand what it is and how it may be communicated to those around you. And if you are going to put someone at risk, it is your responsibility to tell them, and allow them to make a choice of exposure. 

If you have the flu or HPV, I can get a vaccine and be safe. If you have HSV, we might avoid some contact or do something else, but an infected person is responsible for understanding and communicating their condition when it impacts others. 

This seems like common sense to me, but I am wondering if maybe I am in the minority. 


This is a good site that explains some of the stats

Most of the numbers people have mentioned in this thread seem accurate.


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

wantshelp said:


> I don't blame my wife for *having *HSV. That would not make any sense. And I would not blame her if she exhibited no symptoms. But that is not the case with me. My wife exhibited symptoms, knew that it was a cold sore, but failed to disclose the risk it poses to me, her sex partner. I blame her for carelessly exposing me to something without warning and without giving me a choice.


But you said she didn't KNOW that it was a risk. So how could she disclose it to you if she wasn't aware of it?

In the same way, YOU didn't know that cold sores were caused by the HSV-1 virus. But you knew she had cold sores. So if you are going to blame her for not knowing, the same goes for you. 

I don't think you understand that HSV-1 is NOT a STD. 



wantshelp said:


> If they are asymptomatic, I would agree that getting tested between every partner is unreasonable.


But they still have it, asymptomatic or not, and can still transmit it. 



wantshelp said:


> But, for a sexually active person, it's reasonable to add the HSV1/2 test to your annual blood workup, but I don't think I would get a test for each partner, unless I knew I'd been exposed. But, if someone is symptomatic, absolutely, I would expect them to get tested to confirm and notify their partner of how they may be impacted. And I expect the same for people infected with HIV or HPV, or anything else.


We don't routinely test unless a person is symptomatic. There are lots of reasons for this. One is because it is so common; most adults test positive for HSV-1. Also, testing isn't always accurate, and doesn't always distinguish between HSV-1 and 2.



wantshelp said:


> Here is the Bottom Line:
> If you know you have an infection (strep, HIV, HSV, flu, whatever), it is your responsibility (if you interact with people) to understand what it is and how it may be communicated to those around you. And if you are going to put someone at risk, it is your responsibility to tell them, and allow them to make a choice of exposure.
> 
> If you have the flu or HPV, I can get a vaccine and be safe. If you have HSV, we might avoid some contact or do something else, but an infected person is responsible for understanding and communicating their condition when it impacts others.


I don't disagree with you in theory, but in practice, it isn't always that easy. And your interpretation of that information may also not be accurate.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> Then it looks like you've made the decision to stay in your marriage.


No, I have most certainly not made that decision. You asked me why I am still married and I told you. Those are the pros to staying married. But the list of cons is almost as long/important. I am definitely on the fence. 



Lila said:


> In order for you to live a happier life you need to let go of your resentment towards her. This means you have to stop blaming your wife for the perceived wrongs and her lack of sexual desire.


How long would it take to get over the resentment of a 15 year extramarital affair? Just like with an EA, I will never fully trust her again after 15 years of making up excuses to avoid affection instead of telling me the truth that she doubts my motives because she learned growing up that men use women to get off. I will never fully let go of the resentment because I gave her everything (for 13 years) and in return she couldn't even be honest with me. There is no forgetting that. 



Lila said:


> Take responsibility for your decision and actions. Stop trying to control things/people you have no control over.


Not sure what you think I am trying to control. My wife has had complete control of our love life for our entire marriage. Everything happened only when she wanted and how she would allow it. Certainly not a partnership.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Hope Shimmers said:


> But you said she didn't KNOW that it was a risk. So how could she disclose it to you if she wasn't aware of it?


I've said this several times now. *It is the responsibility of someone with an infection to understand what they have and how it is communicated. * So, I expected my wife to understand that her cold sores can give a partner genital herpes via oral sex and warn her partners (me) before engaging in such activity. I didn't research it further because she assured me that she takes care of it, so I don't have to worry about it. I trusted her. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> So if you are going to blame her for not knowing, the same goes for you.


That is ridiculous. What am I supposed to do? Visit my doctor and tell him my wife gets a rash sometimes or a sore. She says it's nothing to worry about, should I be worried? My doctor would have no opportunity to examine her. It could be a pimple for all I know. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> I don't think you understand that HSV-1 is NOT a STD.


HSV-1 is one of the 2 viruses that causes Genital Herpes. That makes it a sexually transmittable disease. We can agree to disagree. I have already discussed that I think oral sex is still sex. I guess you don't agree and that's fine.


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

wantshelp said:


> I've said this several times now. *It is the responsibility of someone with an infection to understand what they have and how it is communicated. * So, I expected my wife to understand that her cold sores can give a partner genital herpes via oral sex and warn her partners (me) before engaging in such activity. I didn't research it further because she assured me that she takes care of it, so I don't have to worry about it. I trusted her.


Except she had no way to know she had an "infection" that could potentially transmit HSV. You can say she SHOULD have known, but she didn't. 

Do YOU know if you have HSV and could potentially transmit it to HER in the form of genital herpes? Do YOU know if you have HSV-1 infection (you probably do) and could potentially transmit it? By your argument, you should have informed her. Your responsibility to do so. 

Statistically, you should just assume that anyone you date (if you were single) has HSV-1. 



wantshelp said:


> That is ridiculous. What am I supposed to do? Visit my doctor and tell him my wife gets a rash sometimes or a sore. She says it's nothing to worry about, should I be worried? My doctor would have no opportunity to examine her. It could be a pimple for all I know.


If she had visited her doctor and asked about the cold sore, the doctor would have told her, yep, that's a cold sore. You can get medication over the counter to treat it. And that's it. That's how common it is. So how was she to know?



wantshelp said:


> HSV-1 is one of the 2 viruses that causes Genital Herpes. That makes it a sexually transmittable disease. We can agree to disagree. I have already discussed that I think oral sex is still sex. I guess you don't agree and that's fine.


HSV-1 is oral herpes infection. It is not the same as HSV-2. In some cases it is feasible for a person to get genital herpes from HSV-1 through oral sex (and yes, oral sex is counted as sex) but it is not the same as HSV-2. Genital herpes is primarily caused by HSV-2. You are making too big of a deal of this, considering that the vast majority of the population tests positive for HSV-1 (including you, probably). The fact that she gets cold sores is not relevant because it can be transmitted even without symptoms.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

wantshelp said:


> No, I have most certainly not made that decision. You asked me why I am still married and I told you. Those are the pros to staying married. But the list of cons is almost as long/important. I am definitely on the fence.
> 
> How long would it take to get over the resentment of a 15 year extramarital affair? Just like with an EA, I will never fully trust her again after 15 years of making up excuses to avoid affection instead of telling me the truth that she doubts my motives because she learned growing up that men use women to get off. I will never fully let go of the resentment because I gave her everything (for 13 years) and in return she couldn't even be honest with me. There is no forgetting that.


This is exactly why I said you've made your decision to stay. What you're doing is not fence sitting. You are clearly living on the side of the fence where you wallow in resentment in a marriage to someone who you think has wronged you for 15 years. You can only claim you're fence sitting if you've actually put boundaries in place which you haven't. I'm not saying this to be mean but it's just another day of the same ol', same ol'. 

You won't try to make the best of your current situation but you won't risk leaving. That's called accepting your lot, no?




wantshelp said:


> Not sure what you think I am trying to control. My wife has had complete control of our love life for our entire marriage. Everything happened only when she wanted and how she would allow it. Certainly not a partnership.


You're trying to control the HPV while at the same time being your needs met with oral sex. If you read that link you pasted on your last post, what you want is short of impossible in your current situation. He!! it's short of impossible if you choose to divorce and start dating again. 

You've read the scientific literature. You are twisting yourself into a knot over what amounts to a _normal human social condition_.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> Wait, what? You've been dragging her to SEX therapy for TWO YEARS, every WEEK, for 2 HOURS? 220+ hours of sex therapy?


The numbers are correct, as I said. I did insist that she attend Marital Counseling to fix our sexless marriage. She was embarrassed and didn't want to talk about sex to a stranger. And she was perfectly happy with the sexless marriage, she is LD. So, of course she didn't want to go. I didn't drag her, but I think it was completely appropriate and justified to insist that she attend. She makes most of the appointments for us now because we both understand that if we can't work this out, our marriage will be over. 

Is that a lot of therapy. Heck yes. When we started I asked how long are couples in therapy before they can expect to get to a better place. She said 8 months. But ultimately, the time and money will have been worth it if we can figure this out. And, I have learned so much about my wife and her motivations. Her behavior makes sense to me on many more levels now. Even this Herpes thing makes total sense. She was incessantly ridiculed by her mother growing up (NOT ME) and she just learned to shut up and not ask questions. So, it makes complete sense that she never asked about her infection. She didn't want to be called stupid for something she thought she should know. But just because I understand why, doesn't mean that I am not mad at her for not considering my health and overcoming her childhood programming. I am not going to get into the details, but as our marriage has gone on, there have been MANY instances where myself and my children were put at risk because she clings to this. One instance nearly killed my daughter. She called me literally yesterday because she was afraid to ask about something at work and someone was nearly hurt. She said she was afraid her coworkers would think she is stupid. I comforted her and reassured her that her reaction just shows how much she cares and that she is not stupid because she knows what to do. It is this childhood programming from her mother that just keeps persisting. 

So, it's not about the Herpes. The Herpes is just another example. It's about whether my wife can truly change at this point in her life. Whether she can ever let go of the toxic learnings from her childhood. Some people say yes. Some say no. But, I owe it to myself and the kids to find out before I do something I cannot reverse. 



turnera said:


> Because YOU don't like the sex you're (not) getting?


A sexless marriage is not a marriage at all. 



turnera said:


> What does SHE think about that?


If I knew what she thought, I think my problems would be solved. She recognizes the way she has neglected our marriage and is remorseful. 



Personal said:


> Controlling?


Not sure what you are referring to. If by controlling, you mean expecting her to abide by her marital vows, yes. 



Personal said:


> Maybe she's scared of him?


Ha. No. But, we are both scared of losing what we have together.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> This is exactly why I said you've made your decision to stay. What you're doing is not fence sitting. You are clearly living on the side of the fence where you wallow in resentment in a marriage to someone who you think has wronged you for 15 years. You can only claim you're fence sitting if you've actually put boundaries in place which you haven't. I'm not saying this to be mean but it's just another day of the same ol', same ol'.
> 
> You won't try to make the best of your current situation but you won't risk leaving. That's called accepting your lot, no?


Yes, I would agree with all of that. 



Lila said:


> If you read that link you pasted on your last post, what you want is short of impossible in your current situation... You've read the scientific literature. You are twisting yourself into a knot over what amounts to a _normal human social condition_.


I know, I read it. I think I am beginning to agree.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

@MissScarlett, thanks for sharing your experience. You make a lot of sense. And, it seems there are clear parallels between your friend and my wife.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

MrsAldi said:


> You have to figure out if your wife is doing therapy just to keep you from leaving or over guilt about your injury or does she really eventually want a fulfilling sexual future with you.


THIS!! She tells me that she wants a love life, but her actions tell me the complete opposite. So, I don't believe her. I want to believe her, but I just can't and won't trust what she says. I will only believe actions now. Our therapist thinks that if we can get her to free herself of the childhood messages, she might finally open up again. But, after years of therapy, I am having trouble hanging on.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

wantshelp said:


> I don't blame my wife for *having *HSV. That would not make any sense. And I would not blame her if she exhibited no symptoms. But that is not the case with me. My wife exhibited symptoms, knew that it was a cold sore, but failed to disclose the risk it poses to me, her sex partner. I blame her for carelessly exposing me to something without warning and without giving me a choice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The referenced website is a pro-herpes site so disregard it. It is agenda driven. Get the info from unbiased sources.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> The referenced website is a pro-herpes site so disregard it. It is agenda driven. Get the info from unbiased sources.


You may be right. I went ahead and changed the link to refer to the CDC page instead. But, I see nothing trustworthy about the prevalence of HSV-1, but it would be easy to do a study, so I must be missing it. I think I read somewhere that 40-80% of the population has HSV-1. Also, apparently the incidence of HSV has been dropping for years, so it could be much lower or much higher.

Update: Here is some info, although it's old
65% of Americans have HSV-1. But, that was 14 years ago.

Update 2: Here we go. Latest number says 68%


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> The referenced website is a pro-herpes site so disregard it. It is agenda driven. Get the info from unbiased sources.


You keep saying that.... what is a "pro-herpes" site? There is no such thing. This is a site that is trying to explain the realities of the virus and its epidemiology.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Hope Shimmers said:


> You keep saying that.... what is a "pro-herpes" site? There is no such thing. This is a site that is trying to explain the realities of the virus and its epidemiology.


He is right that it is an interpretation of the data and not an official source.


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

wantshelp said:


> He is right that it is an interpretation of the data and not an official source.


I never said it was an "official source". It isn't. I said it wasn't a "pro-herpes site". 

I know data quite well. I was a researcher at a Big Ten university for 13 years. 

Anyway, I'll leave you to your thread. Best of luck to you.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Hope Shimmers said:


> I never said it was an "official source". It isn't. I said it wasn't a "pro-herpes site".
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I know data too. Been a corporate researcher for 20+ years. Neither that nor your experience is relevant. 

The referenced website, if you actually read it, and the organization have an agenda. They are not unbiased. Their purpose is to say, in my words, that herpes is not that bad and should not have a social stigma. I call that "pro herpes" to mean they are biased in that direction. 

Whether it is political, environmental or health related if an organization has a publicly stated mission to advocate a certain position then by definition they are biased. As is normal for a biased piece, they are more likely to cite studies that support their position and exclude studies that don't. 

Just like the climate warming nuts.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Hope Shimmers said:


> I never said it was an "official source". It isn't. I said it wasn't a "pro-herpes site".


I don't disagree. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> I know data quite well. I was a researcher at a Big Ten university for 13 years. Anyway, I'll leave you to your thread. Best of luck to you.


Many of us here have a wide variety of experience. That's what makes TAM useful!


----------



## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Their purpose is to say, in my words, that herpes is not that bad and should not have a social stigma. I call that "pro herpes" to mean they are biased in that direction.


Right, they are not saying everyone should get Herpes. 



blueinbr said:


> Whether it is political, environmental or health related if an organization has a publicly stated mission to advocate a certain position then by definition they are biased. As is normal for a biased piece, they are more likely to cite studies that support their position and exclude studies that don't.


I think you're right. I just read the about page and they do specifically advocate for those with Herpes. But, I think it is important to talk more openly about it. Certainly, if my wife didn't feel the social pressure of having HSV-1, maybe she would have felt free to ask her doctor and understand it better. 

It did make me a bit uncomfortable with how dismissive they were about the available data from the CDC.


----------



## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> I know data too. Been a corporate researcher for 20+ years. Neither that nor your experience is relevant.


Yours isn't (in this instance), but mine is, because I am a clinical researcher and know healthcare. So I believe it's relevant. The next time some corporate data issue comes up, I cede to you.



blueinbr said:


> The referenced website, if you actually read it, and the organization have an agenda. They are not unbiased. Their purpose is to say, in my words, that herpes is not that bad and should not have a social stigma. I call that "pro herpes" to mean they are biased in that direction.


Again, I never claimed that they weren't biased. I just said they weren't "pro-herpes" whatever TF that means. 

Frankly, I think that herpes has way too much of a social stigma given the facts, so if that makes me pro-herpes, so be it.



blueinbr said:


> Whether it is political, environmental or health related if an organization has a publicly stated mission to advocate a certain position then by definition they are biased. As is normal for a biased piece, they are more likely to cite studies that support their position and exclude studies that don't.


They didn't reference any studies. Which is why I don't use random websites to validate my points. 

The best thing to do would be to do a Medline/PubMed search and pull the primary literature. I have already done that (have written several papers/grants on the topic) and I can tell you that what they said is consistent with the primary literature, so that is why I didn't have a problem with it. But I agree; such sites CAN be biased. 



blueinbr said:


> Just like the climate warming nuts.


Not going there.


----------



## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Hope Shimmers said:


> Do YOU know if you have HSV ...


I know the thread is a bit long, but I've already been through this... 

Yes, actually, I do know that I do not have HSV. I have never had any sores and have had 2 blood tests for HSV 1 and 2 since I realized that I may have been exposed. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> ...and could potentially transmit it to HER in the form of genital herpes?


Even IF I had HSV-1, since she already has it, I could not give her Genital Herpes. Once your are exposed to HSV-1, your body generates antibodies against it. This prevents another independent infection in other parts of the body. So, once you have an HSV-1 cold sore, you are now immune from further HSV-1 infection. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> Do YOU know if you have HSV-1 infection *(you probably do)* and could potentially transmit it?


I DO NOT have HSV-1! 



Hope Shimmers said:


> By your argument, you should have informed her. Your responsibility to do so.


I DIDN'T INFORM HER BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING TO INFORM HER OF!! I don't have HSV! It's the whole point of this thread. Dealing with the fact that she does and I don't. I'm not even reading any more of your questions because you haven't read what I have said previously. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> Statistically, you should just assume that anyone you date (if you were single) has HSV-1.


 65% prevalence does not equal 100%



Hope Shimmers said:


> If she had visited her doctor and asked about the cold sore, the doctor would have told her, yep, that's a cold sore. You can get medication over the counter to treat it. And that's it. That's how common it is. So how was she to know?


That is a completely fictitious guess on your part. That would be an irresponsible doctor. My dermatologist very openly told me all about how it can be transmitted when I told him my wife had cold sores and I was HSV negative. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> HSV-1 is oral herpes infection.


ummm, except when HSV-1 infects the genitals. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> It is not the same as HSV-2.


Yup. Different numbers are for different virus strains. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> In some cases it is feasible for a person to get genital herpes from HSV-1 through oral sex


Some cases? Nearly all genital HSV-1 is probably from oral sex. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> Genital herpes is primarily caused by HSV-2.


That used to be true. I read it may be 50/50 now. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> You are making too big of a deal of this


You are entitled to your opinion. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> tests positive for HSV-1 (including you, probably).


No, not including me. Wrong again. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> The fact that she gets cold sores is not relevant because it can be transmitted even without symptoms.


I am well aware that the virus sheds without any visible signs. That is extremely relevant to me if I am trying to avoid genital herpes!


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

wantshelp said:


> I know the thread is a bit long, but I've already been through this...
> 
> Yes, actually, I do know that I do not have HSV. I have never had any sores and have had 2 blood tests for HSV 1 and 2 since I realized that I may have been exposed.


Okay. Not sure why you would even bother to be tested, since you had no symptoms.



blueinbr said:


> Even IF I had HSV-1, since she already has it, I could not give her Genital Herpes. Once your are exposed to HSV-1, your body generates antibodies against it. This prevents another independent infection in other parts of the body. So, once you have an HSV-1 cold sore, you are now immune from further HSV-1 infection.


No, you could not give her "further" HSV-1, but you could transmit GENITAL herpes to her if you were positive for HSV-2. If you had the virus, which you said you don't, so it's a moot point.



blueinbr said:


> 65% prevalence does not equal 100%


Not sure where you are getting that statistic.



blueinbr said:


> That is a completely fictitious guess on your part. That would be an irresponsible doctor. My dermatologist very openly told me all about how it can be transmitted when I told him my wife had cold sores and I was HSV negative.


If you specifically ASKED about the herpes virus, then of course your doc discussed it. What I am saying is that most docs will not give a lecture on HSV transmission for patients who come in with a cold sore. 



blueinbr said:


> ummm, except when HSV-1 infects the genitals.


No. When it infects the genitals, it STILL is HSV-1. HSV-1 is, by definition, oral herpes.



blueinbr said:


> Some cases? Nearly all genital HSV-1 is probably from oral sex.


Of course that is true. Not what I said at all. What I said was that in SOME cases, HSV-1 can be transmitted to the genitals. Please stop taking my comments out of context.



blueinbr said:


> That used to be true. I read it may be 50/50 now.


Well then, maybe you should share what else you read in the website that you quoted. Because there is a lot more, and I have avoided going into it, but the gist of it is that there are more strains of HSV than just 1 and 2 now, and nearly everyone is infected. Up to 6 different strains. That is the fact, and not based on that website but based on the primary literature. 

I won't comment on your thread again. If you want my opinion after reading more of your posts, HSV is the least of your problems with your wife. Good luck.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@wantshelp, have you discussed your hsv concerns with your sex therapist? What was their response? 

If you haven't, I encourage you to bring it up as soon as possible. He/she can help you address your concerns. 

Worse case scenario, you can go the route of these two.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> https://ugc.kn3.net/i/760x/http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb9v6tZ78o1qewsw4o4_r1_250.gif


I so badly want to like this post seeing as how you are using an image from one of the truly classic American feature films. However, after all we have been though and you didn't even post it properly ... sigh ....


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I so badly want to like this post seeing as how you are using an image from one of the truly classic American feature films. However, after all we have been though and you didn't even post it properly ... sigh ....



LOL, do you know how nervous I was adding that link? I even added [gif] [/gif] to the link in the hopes that this would make it attach properly. 

I think I might have zoned out for that lesson  In my defense, you showed my how to add images not gifs. Okay....now I know that gifs and Jpgs BOTH get the







.

ETA: Like my damn post....it's the thought that counts after all ;D


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

wantshelp said:


> 65% prevalence does not equal 100%


More than half of the people you meet are likely to have it.

So if I were you I would avoid shaking anyone's hands, lest someone absentmindedly touches their shedding lips.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Also considering your apoplexy over your wife's cold sores, you should thank her for not wanting to have much if any sex with you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> If I knew what she thought, I think my problems would be solved. She recognizes the way she has neglected our marriage and is remorseful.


Wow. I think we're getting closer to the real truth. 

If you don't know what she thinks after 220 hours of therapy, it's a fair bet she will never share with you what she thinks. Why? Because you're not safe. How do I know that? Because you have dragged her to 220 hours of therapy in your quest to create a perfect marriage for YOU. In your refusal to accept the perfect marriage for HER.

Now before you go on and on again about you not getting sex, I AM NOT discussing whether you should be getting sex. That is NOT what I'm discussing here. I'm discussing HER. Which, as I've said, you aren't really understanding. 

And she's remorseful? No. She's telling you what you want to hear without actually having to break down and give you sex, which repulses her. I wish I had the strength she does, to avoid doing that which repulses me and makes me feel like a wh*re and which makes me think all men want is sex. I, too, gave sex freely before we dated. But I didn't want to. But I was taught guys dump you if you don't put out. So I did. 

I asked my now-husband if he would keep dating me if I said no, after we'd been dating awhile and were engaged. He said no. So I never said no again. 

But that made him NOT safe. Just like I suspect you are not safe to your wife. Have you ever asked her that?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> THIS!! She tells me that she wants a love life, but her actions tell me the complete opposite. So, I don't believe her. I want to believe her, but I just can't and won't trust what she says. I will only believe actions now. Our therapist thinks that if we can get her to free herself of the childhood messages, she might finally open up again. But, after years of therapy, I am having trouble hanging on.


Is she going to therapy by herself? You are not safe to be honest around. If you want any change in her, stop going to therapy with her. Let HER go. By herself. If she wants.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Hope Shimmers said:


> Yours isn't (in this instance), but mine is, because I am a clinical researcher and know healthcare. So I believe it's relevant. The next time some corporate data issue comes up, I cede to you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Uh. I am an expert in pharmaceutical research. Far beyond you, only because i am older, not necessarily smarter.

I will concede you are very smart.


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> Uh. I am an expert in pharmaceutical research. Far beyond you, only because i am older, not necessarily smarter.
> 
> I will concede you are very smart.


Far beyond me? What degrees and experience do you have?

I have a BS and PharmD in pharmacy, and an MD. Then a 2-year fellowship in pharmacoepidemiology. Then a Master's Degree in the same areas. Then training in endocrinology.

So what is your expertise in pharmaceutical research?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Hope Shimmers said:


> Far beyond me? What degrees and experience do you have?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




A valid question first. Do you have herpes?

I already conceded you are very smart.


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> A valid question first. Do you have herpes?


Never been tested. Never had active herpes. But statistically, I probably would test positive. Never had a cold sore.


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> A valid question first. Do you have herpes?
> 
> I already conceded you are very smart.


No, you said you were "far beyond me". So I would be interested to know how "far" you are beyond me.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> No, you said you were "far beyond me". So I would be interested to know how "far" you are beyond me


Mansplation is powerful.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Wantshelp - I feel like there are two conversations going on here. One about DW herpes status and one about your long term unsatisfying marriage. 

It reminds me of another poster here a few years ago. His wife had a 2nd trimester miscarriage and completely shut him out. Sexually, emotionally. It had been the better part of 10 years. He went through all the stages of grief and then turned on her too. She was overweight. Her stomach hung down. He became fixated on her stomach and how repulsed he was by this. He made it so he didn't want to have sex with her. Made it his choice instead of hers. Perhaps this was only an illusion - because every person on this board who is the HD partner knows damn well that the LD partner holds all the power in the marriage. When you come to this board saying you can't have sex with your wife because of her stomach - you sound petty AF. But that wasn't the issue. That was only the most recent development. 

Why do we do these things? Why do we keep drawing new lines in the sand and saying if things dont get better soon I will leave. And then years have passed by? Granted we are lacking your wife's side of the story. But from the case you have presented here you have left no stone unturned in your efforts to heal your disconnect. I don't think I know any man personally that not only would agree to hundreds of hours of therapy - but is the one pushing for it. You have done a tremendous amount trying to right this. What more can you do? When is it going to be enough that you are going to be able to come to peace? Perhaps it's time to stop focusing on her issues and start making an exit plan.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

turnera said:


> blue, are you regretting choosing to stay? You haven't said so until today.




Yes


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## Mo_Solrae (Dec 1, 2016)

KJ_Simmons said:


> Oh good grief man....as others have stated, nearly everybody has it, myself included.
> 
> If you are trying to avoid it at all costs, have fun with that. Are you going to require testing after the first date?
> 
> ...


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

MissScarlett said:


> Wantshelp - I feel like there are two conversations going on here. One about DW herpes status and one about your long term unsatisfying marriage.
> 
> It reminds me of another poster here a few years ago. His wife had a 2nd trimester miscarriage and completely shut him out. Sexually, emotionally. It had been the better part of 10 years. He went through all the stages of grief and then turned on her too. She was overweight. Her stomach hung down. He became fixated on her stomach and how repulsed he was by this. He made it so he didn't want to have sex with her. Made it his choice instead of hers. Perhaps this was only an illusion - because every person on this board who is the HD partner knows damn well that the LD partner holds all the power in the marriage. When you come to this board saying you can't have sex with your wife because of her stomach - you sound petty AF. But that wasn't the issue. That was only the most recent development.
> 
> Why do we do these things? Why do we keep drawing new lines in the sand and saying if things dont get better soon I will leave. And then years have passed by? Granted we are lacking your wife's side of the story. *But from the case you have presented here you have left no stone unturned in your efforts to heal your disconnect. I don't think I know any man personally that not only would agree to hundreds of hours of therapy - but is the one pushing for it. You have done a tremendous amount trying to right this.* What more can you do? When is it going to be enough that you are going to be able to come to peace? Perhaps it's time to stop focusing on her issues and start making an exit plan.


I have to wonder if he's done a tremendous amount to try and fix the relationship, or if he's done a tremendous amount to try and fix _his wife_. Those are two very different things. But, most importantly, the first is something he has a possibility of accomplishing, the second he has no possibility of accomplishing. He cannot fix her. He cannot change her. He cannot make her be different. She could do so, if she wanted to. But he cannot. And, apparently, he's either failing to see that fact or failing to accept it. Rather than sending his wife to therapy to fix her, I think his best course of action might be to go to therapy himself - to figure out why he's staying in a relationship that makes him so unhappy. The only person he can control here is himself. 

What is it about his current marital dynamic that is appealing enough to him that he keeps on keeping on? Is his self-esteem low enough that he doesn't think he can do better? Does he not think he deserves better? Was his family of origin dysfunctional in the same way, so that he finds this familiar, comfortable, normal? Is there a control issue or co-dependency that compels him to attempt to change another into what he wants/needs? Figuring out why he's still in this marriage when it seems clear he is bitterly unhappy is an avenue of exploration that might actually facilitate change in his life. Dragging his unwilling-to-change-herself wife to couple's therapy or sending her to IC absolutely will not.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

My wife has H-2. She told me before we got married. She did not tell me about the rapes. I wish it had been the other way around. 24+ years later I have not caught the H-2 but the rapes have put an enormous damper on our sex life. And yes, I realize the two are related. If you hardly ever have sex, not many chances to catch H-2 from your partner. I would have preferred to have lots of sex and catch the H-2. Ah well, no one gets everything they want out of life.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Honestly. I am about done with answering questions about Herpes Epidemiology. I am not an epidemiologist. I initiated this thread to ask people for how they deal with the challenges of one partner being able to give the other an STD in a long term relationship. The consensus (from everyone with Herpes) is to let yourself be infected. The sores are not that big of a deal. Duly noted. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> Okay. Not sure why you would even bother to be tested, since you had no symptoms.


OK. I don't have years of clinical experience, so let me explain it so you can understand. My wife has Oral Herpes. I have had "contact" with her. So I wanted to see if I had been exposed. Why would it matter? Because, if I had been exposed to the same strain, but was merely asymptomatic, I would now be immune from further infection anywhere else on my body. So, it would be impossible to get genital herpes from her since I was already exposed and now carry the antibodies against her HSV strain. But, since I test negative for HSV, the virus can be transmitted to my genitals, so unprotected oral sex carries a real risk of me acquiring genital herpes. That is useful information. That is why I got tested. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> No, you could not give her "further" HSV-1, but you could transmit GENITAL herpes to her if you were positive for HSV-2. If you had the virus, which you said you don't, so it's a moot point.


I was a virgin before I met her and have been 100% faithful to her, so any genital infections originated with her. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> Not sure where you are getting that statistic.


I have posted several links with some of the stats. This is the most comprehensive that I have found. I live in the United States, so I looked at that line. If you live in a different country, the numbers might be different for you. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> What I am saying is that most docs will not give a lecture on HSV transmission for patients who come in with a cold sore.


I have only my own personal experience, so I don't know what other doctors tell their patients. But, maybe that's why 65% of the population has HSV-1. Because people had no idea how it was transmitted. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> No. When it infects the genitals, it STILL is HSV-1. HSV-1 is, by definition, oral herpes.


No that is not the definition of HSV-1. The number after "HSV" is to discriminate between the two virus strains, not the site of outbreak. Either can infect the mouth, genitals, anus, eyes, brain, etc. In the US, Oral Herpes is usually caused by HSV-1 and genital Herpes may be 50/50. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> Well then, maybe you should share what else you read in the website that you quoted. Because there is a lot more, and I have avoided going into it, but the gist of it is that there are more strains of HSV than just 1 and 2 now, and nearly everyone is infected. Up to 6 different strains. That is the fact, and not based on that website but based on the primary literature.


This website also offers good information. 

Here are some key passages: 


> "People don't understand that you can have type 1 genitally or orally, that the two types are essentially the same virus,' says Marshall Clover, manager of the National Herpes Hotline." One type is associated with stigma, the other is "'just a cold sore"- our society has a euphemism for it so we don't even have to acknowledge that it's herpes.''
> 
> The common myth is that HSV-1 causes a mild infection that is occasionally bothersome, but never dangerous. The reality? HSV-1 is usually mild, especially when it infects the lips, face, or genitals. However, in some cases type 1 can recur spontaneously in the eye, causing ocular herpes, a potentially serious infection which can lead to blindness. In very rare cases HSV- 1 can spread spontaneously to the brain, causing herpes encephalitis, a dangerous infection that can lead to death. HSV-1 is also the usual cause of herpes whitlow, an infection on the finger, and "wrestler's herpes," (herpes gladiatorum) a herpes infection on the chest or face.
> 
> The range and potential severity of HSV-1 infections lead some experts to view the virus as more risky than usually perceived. "This is heresy, but I think type 1 is a more significant infection than type 2," says Spotswood Spruance, MD, an oral HSV specialist at the University of Utah. "Type 1, and the morbidity associated with it, are underestimated."





> How Easily Spread?
> As a number of readers have attested over the years, many people with genital herpes are at least as concerned about transmission-the likelihood of spreading the virus to a partner-as about their own health. On the other hand, few people with oral herpes, share this concern. Is this because one type is more contagious than the other?
> 
> The short answer is no. Both viral types are easily transmitted to their site of preference, and can also be spread to other sites. Both are most contagious during active outbreaks, but are often spread through viral shedding when there are no recognizable symptoms. According to Spruance, people with recurrent oral HSV-1 shed virus in their saliva about 5% of the time even when they show no symptoms. In the first year of infection, people with genital HSV-2 shed virus from the genital area about 6-10% of days when they show no symptoms, and less often over time. (Both of these figures reflect shedding as detected by viral culture.)
> ...





Hope Shimmers said:


> I won't comment on your thread again. If you want my opinion after reading more of your posts, HSV is the least of your problems with your wife. Good luck.


You can comment on ways to deal with my situation or personal experience you may have had. But, I don't think a discussion of transmission or perceptions of social stigma are helpful to me.


----------



## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> My wife has H-2. She told me before we got married. She did not tell me about the rapes. I wish it had been the other way around. 24+ years later I have not caught the H-2 but the rapes have put an enormous damper on our sex life. And yes, I realize the two are related. If you hardly ever have sex, not many chances to catch H-2 from your partner. I would have preferred to have lots of sex and catch the H-2. Ah well, no one gets everything they want out of life.


I'm sorry. That's terrible for both of you. 

Really sorry.


----------



## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> @wantshelp, have you discussed your hsv concerns with your sex therapist? What was their response?


I did once about a month ago and my wife was upset because she assumes the only reason I care is because I want to leave her. It's not that I want to leave her because of Herpes though. I would leave her because of the sexless marriage. I want to know that we'll be together forever before I make the choice to ignore the possibility of getting herpes with her. But, if sex between us is limited because of her HSV-1, it makes it harder for us to reconnect. 



Lila said:


> Worse case scenario, you can go the route of these two.
> https://ugc.kn3.net/i/760x/http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb9v6tZ78o1qewsw4o4_r1_250.gif


Ha ha.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Rowan said:


> I have to wonder if he's done a tremendous amount to try and fix the relationship, or if he's done a tremendous amount to try and fix _his wife_.


My point exactly. The more you post, the more it becomes clear that you're intent on arranging things for your benefit, that you have no respect nor affection for her. If that's so, how do you expect her to care to give you what you want? I mean, good grief, 2 years of weekly therapy? Just let her go.


----------



## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

MissScarlett said:


> Wantshelp - I feel like there are two conversations going on here. One about DW herpes status and one about your long term unsatisfying marriage.


I agree. 



MissScarlett said:


> It reminds me of another poster here a few years ago. His wife had a 2nd trimester miscarriage and completely shut him out. Sexually, emotionally. It had been the better part of 10 years. He went through all the stages of grief and then turned on her too. She was overweight. Her stomach hung down. He became fixated on her stomach and how repulsed he was by this. He made it so he didn't want to have sex with her. Made it his choice instead of hers. Perhaps this was only an illusion - because every person on this board who is the HD partner knows damn well that the LD partner holds all the power in the marriage. When you come to this board saying you can't have sex with your wife because of her stomach - you sound petty AF. But that wasn't the issue. That was only the most recent development.


It's like you have psychic powers. You are totally nailing it. My wife had been depressed for years. It took years to finally get her help (she refused) and to find the right meds for her. Since going to counseling, my wife has become obese and she points out to me that she is fat and has a pendulous belly (I had never even heard of that before). I never cared about that though. I was more concerned about her health long term. To me, her boobs and butt were bigger, so there was more to love. But, she kept saying it over and over that she was fat and unattractive. The truth is that that aspect (the fat rolls) are not attractive to me, but I always tried to refocus on her health and on the aspect I do like. But, getting to the point. I think she feels guilty about her neglecting me for so long and is trying to sabotage her attractiveness by gaining wait. I know it sounds nuts, but I think it's a possibility. But who knows? I don't even think she does. And that's my problem. 



MissScarlett said:


> Why do we do these things? Why do we keep drawing new lines in the sand and saying if things dont get better soon I will leave. And then years have passed by? Granted we are lacking your wife's side of the story. But from the case you have presented here you have left no stone unturned in your efforts to heal your disconnect. I don't think I know any man personally that not only would agree to hundreds of hours of therapy - but is the one pushing for it. You have done a tremendous amount trying to right this. What more can you do? When is it going to be enough that you are going to be able to come to peace? Perhaps it's time to stop focusing on her issues and start making an exit plan.


I sincerely thank you for your thoughts. And for your recognition of how hard I have tried. Thanks.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

wantshelp said:


> I did once about a month ago and *my wife was upset because she assumes the only reason I care is because I want to leave her.* It's not that I want to leave her because of Herpes though. *I would leave her because of the sexless marriage.* I want to know that we'll be together forever before I make the choice to ignore the possibility of getting herpes with her. *But, if sex between us is limited* because of her HSV-1, *it makes it harder for us to reconnect. *


If "just sex" is a make it or break it aspect of your marriage and your wife feels like YOU are the one trying to find reasons NOT to have sex...

HSV-1 is the least of your problems!

It is like you are flying a airplane that is running out of fuel, but you can't find a safe place to land because nearby runway conditions are not ideal. You are on the radio with the control tower asking them to run very detailed visibility tests, meanwhile your copilot is bracing for both of you to crash into the side of the mountains.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

I had no idea that cold sores cause so much distress and drama...

I sometimes get a little cold sore on the corner of my mouth always when I am starting with another virus. As soon as I get the sensation that it is coming I dab neat lavender oil on it. By the next day it is completely gone. But you have to get it early. Zovirax never works for me. 

I have been married 21 years and nobody in my family has contracted the virus. Its a non issue.


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

wantshelp said:


> No that is not the definition of HSV-1. The number after "HSV" is to discriminate between the two virus strains, not the site of outbreak. Either can infect the mouth, genitals, anus, eyes, brain, etc. In the US, Oral Herpes is usually caused by HSV-1 and genital Herpes may be 50/50.


You're right; very poor wording on my part. HSV-1 can infect many places, although it usually is restricted to the mouth. 

I think that if you are going to stay married to her and continue to have oral sex then you have to do what you are comfortable with. Only have sex when she doesn't have an active lesion. Wear protection. Etc. Your other option is to stop having oral sex.

End of my input.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> My point exactly. The more you post, the more it becomes clear that you're intent on arranging things for your benefit, that you have no respect nor affection for her. If that's so, how do you expect her to care to give you what you want? I mean, good grief, 2 years of weekly therapy? Just let her go.


I'm not trying? I have stayed faithful to an LD wife for 15 years! I think that amount of trying is absolutely heroic on my part. After 13 years of a sexless marriage, my patience finally ran out and I found a therapist and insisted that we go. And to minimize her anxiety, I specifically sought a female therapist. That is me trying. When our therapist recommended reading "Getting the Love you want", I bought the audio book and listened to the whole thing, while my wife was only interested in reading fictional books on her kindle for entertainment. That is me trying. When I thought I just needed to pique her interest in sex by being a better lover, I read "She comes first" and bought an expensive toy (Womanizer) and learned how to consistently give her mind-blowing, uncontrollable orgasms. That is me trying. When we got homework from our therapist, I did it EVERY TIME, she systematically avoided it, every time. That is me trying. When she asks me what time is good for our next therapy appointment, I will move anything and everything that interferes in my calendar because this is the most important thing in my life. I try my best to listen and understand her. I gave up all of my hobbies to spend more time together in the evenings while she would read kindle books and play candy crush. I always tell her not to work weekends, we don't need the money, I would rather have more time together. That is me trying. She insisted that she wouldn't trust anyone with her babies (at the time, 6 and 7 years old). Another manifestation of anxiety. I found and hired an amazing babysitter to allow us to go to therapy and date nights. We all love our babysitter and she has our complete trust. Finding a sitter and buying comedy club tickets -- that is me trying. And to get new ideas, I participate in this forum. That is me trying. 

With respect to affection and respect... there is no doubt that I have lost a lot of that. To me she has failed to grow up and become an adult. She lives in a world of constant paranoia, wondering if others are judging her. I accepted her as my wife knowing she had some anxiety, but I had no idea of the depth of it. But getting back to becoming an adult... as we mature we recognize that things we were told in childhood were overly simplified to the point of being wrong. "Sex is what $lutS do." "Men only care about using you." As we grow, we recognize that messages we were given no longer apply. My wife has not done this. She has literally not grown up. Talking to her was like talking to a 12 year old. "Ooh that's gross" "Don't say the word 'pu$$y' or 'making love'". An example is that she would not talk openly about sex to me or or therapist. When we started therapy, she would literally say something like "We did 'it' last week, so I don't see why he's not happy now". It just shows that she literally thought I only wanted sex. No, I wanted all of her. But after 14 years of a sexless marriage, I fell out of love last year. And a few months ago my libido tanked, rarely even masturbating. I'm not even interested in sex with her at the moment. It's awful being here, because I want a physical and loving relationship, like when we dated, but that is ancient history now. And yes, I lost respect for her when I realized that she stuck to her childhood hangups over the reality of a faithful and loving husband sitting in front of her, patiently waiting and encouraging her.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

badsanta said:


> If "just sex" is a make it or break it aspect of your marriage and your wife feels like YOU are the one trying to find reasons NOT to have sex...


I have made it clear that even now, if she wants to initiate PIV or wants me to give her oral, I am happy to do it. BJs for me are on hold until I am in love again. 

Love the pictures.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> I'm not trying? I have stayed faithful to an LD wife for 15 years! I think that amount of trying is absolutely heroic on my part. After 13 years of a sexless marriage, my patience finally ran out and I found a therapist and insisted that we go. And to minimize her anxiety, I specifically sought a female therapist. That is me trying. When our therapist recommended reading "Getting the Love you want", I bought the audio book and listened to the whole thing, while my wife was only interested in reading fictional books on her kindle for entertainment. That is me trying. When I thought I just needed to pique her interest in sex by being a better lover, I read "She comes first" and bought an expensive toy (Womanizer) and learned how to consistently give her mind-blowing, uncontrollable orgasms. That is me trying. When we got homework from our therapist, I did it EVERY TIME, she systematically avoided it, every time. That is me trying. When she asks me what time is good for our next therapy appointment, I will move anything and everything that interferes in my calendar because this is the most important thing in my life. I try my best to listen and understand her. I gave up all of my hobbies to spend more time together in the evenings while she would read kindle books and play candy crush. I always tell her not to work weekends, we don't need the money, I would rather have more time together. That is me trying. She insisted that she wouldn't trust anyone with her babies (at the time, 6 and 7 years old). Another manifestation of anxiety. I found and hired an amazing babysitter to allow us to go to therapy and date nights. We all love our babysitter and she has our complete trust. Finding a sitter and buying comedy club tickets -- that is me trying.  And to get new ideas, I participate in this forum. That is me trying.
> 
> With respect to affection and respect... there is no doubt that I have lost a lot of that. To me she has failed to grow up and become an adult. She lives in a world of constant paranoia, wondering if others are judging her. I accepted her as my wife knowing she had some anxiety, but I had no idea of the depth of it. But getting back to becoming an adult... as we mature we recognize that things we were told in childhood were overly simplified to the point of being wrong. "Sex is what $lutS do." "Men only care about using you." As we grow, we recognize that messages we were given no longer apply. My wife has not done this. She has literally not grown up. Talking to her was like talking to a 12 year old. "Ooh that's gross" "Don't say the word 'pu$$y' or 'making love'". An example is that she would not talk openly about sex to me or or therapist. When we started therapy, she would literally say something like "We did 'it' last week, so I don't see why he's not happy now". It just shows that she literally thought I only wanted sex. No, I wanted all of her. But after 14 years of a sexless marriage, I fell out of love last year. And a few months ago my libido tanked, rarely even masturbating. I'm not even interested in sex with her at the moment. It's awful being here, because I want a physical and loving relationship, like when we dated, but that is ancient history now. And yes, I lost respect for her when I realized that she stuck to her childhood hangups over the reality of a faithful and loving husband sitting in front of her, patiently waiting and encouraging her.


fwiw, I did NOT say you weren't trying. I said you were trying, in fact: trying to get HER to be what YOU wanted. In other words, you've been spinning your wheels trying to turn your wife into YOUR version of what she should be.

And this entire post is chock full of YOUR assumptions of how a person 'should' age, change, learn, whatever. You dragged her to therapy for more than two years because YOU weren't getting what YOU wanted. Can you even imagine what it would feel like to be forced to do something like that - for TWO years, week in, week out - because someone else is telling you (and the therapist and whomever else) that you are defective?

If you don't want to hear it, nobody here can help you understand that the more you try to twist someone else into a pretzel to become YOUR version of 'the right thing,' the less successful you will be. 

Because your wife simply learned to shut up, pretend to agree with you, say what you want to hear, and give up as much of herself as she could stand, all in the hopes that you'd just be satisfied and back off already.

In other words, she probably cares less for YOU than you do for HER. Because you've made it clear that SHE simply isn't good enough for you.

How do I know? Because I'm married to someone like you. And I learned long ago that he is NOT my best friend. I am HIS best friend, he tells me everything, he has a blast with me. But he doesn't know a thing about me because I learned many years ago that he wasn't interested in learning more about the real me, only the one he wanted me to be. So that's what I give him.

Do you ever spend those weekly 2-hour-long sessions just exploring if she's happy? What her complaints are? What she would change? Does she wish she never married you? Things like that? Not that she would tell you the truth by now; you're no longer safe to be honest with. But if she were to use those sessions alone, she might be able to open up and find some clarity about y'all.

btw, you say she should have 'grown up' by now. My first sexual incident was when I was 15 and I basically got tricked into doing it; at the same period, my older brother had been going on for a couple years now about how evil it was, how I'd be a bad person if I did it, all of that. Once it happened, I was filled with both self-loathing and toxic shame as well as certainty that men use women for only one reason. Relationships are fine, but without the sex, women are worthless. I learned that through the series of guys who promptly dumped me for saying no. Even my own husband said he would have. But that first incident? Etched in my brain, 40 years later; it was that traumatic to have it all proved true. And no, I haven't 'grown up' to see the error of my thinking. I still feel just as horrible about it all as that very day.

Now, if your wife were instead going to some sort of personal therapy that had nothing to do with you or your expectations, it's possible she might someday overcome her issues. After LOTS of therapy. But it will never happen the heavy-handed way you're going about it. You are no longer safe. Ask your MC about it.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Rowan said:


> I have to wonder if he's done a tremendous amount to try and fix the relationship, or if he's done a tremendous amount to try and fix _his wife_.


Food for thought. 



Rowan said:


> What is it about his current marital dynamic that is appealing enough to him that he keeps on keeping on?


More time with my kids, avoiding the division of our assets, keeping my best friend, and divorce goes back on my oath and promise I made when I married her. 



Rowan said:


> Is his self-esteem low enough that he doesn't think he can do better?


No


Rowan said:


> Does he not think he deserves better?


I wouldn't be in counseling if I didn't think I deserved better. 


Rowan said:


> Was his family of origin dysfunctional in the same way, so that he finds this familiar, comfortable, normal?


I find this in no way normal or comfortable. With respect to affection, I feel like she is suffocating me. 


Rowan said:


> Is there a control issue or co-dependency that compels him to attempt to change another into what he wants/needs?


Our therapist says my wife is strongly codependent. She has never suggested that I was. 


Rowan said:


> Figuring out why he's still in this marriage when it seems clear he is bitterly unhappy is an avenue of exploration that might actually facilitate change in his life.


Like everything else, there is a list of pros and cons. There is a long list on both sides. 


Rowan said:


> Dragging his unwilling-to-change-herself wife to couple's therapy or sending her to IC absolutely will not.


I agree that her actions indicate that she is unwilling to change, but she insists that she can and is changing.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

wantshelp said:


> I'm not trying? I have stayed faithful to an LD wife for 15 years! I think that amount of trying is absolutely heroic on my part. After 13 years of a sexless marriage, my patience finally ran out and I found a therapist and insisted that we go. And to minimize her anxiety, I specifically sought a female therapist. That is me trying. When our therapist recommended reading "Getting the Love you want", I bought the audio book and listened to the whole thing, while my wife was only interested in reading fictional books on her kindle for entertainment. That is me trying. When I thought I just needed to pique her interest in sex by being a better lover, I read "She comes first" and bought an expensive toy (Womanizer) and learned how to consistently give her mind-blowing, uncontrollable orgasms. That is me trying. When we got homework from our therapist, I did it EVERY TIME, she systematically avoided it, every time. That is me trying. When she asks me what time is good for our next therapy appointment, I will move anything and everything that interferes in my calendar because this is the most important thing in my life. I try my best to listen and understand her. I gave up all of my hobbies to spend more time together in the evenings while she would read kindle books and play candy crush. I always tell her not to work weekends, we don't need the money, I would rather have more time together. That is me trying. She insisted that she wouldn't trust anyone with her babies (at the time, 6 and 7 years old). Another manifestation of anxiety. I found and hired an amazing babysitter to allow us to go to therapy and date nights. We all love our babysitter and she has our complete trust. Finding a sitter and buying comedy club tickets -- that is me trying. And to get new ideas, I participate in this forum. That is me trying.
> 
> With respect to affection and respect... there is no doubt that I have lost a lot of that. To me she has failed to grow up and become an adult. She lives in a world of constant paranoia, wondering if others are judging her. I accepted her as my wife knowing she had some anxiety, but I had no idea of the depth of it. But getting back to becoming an adult... as we mature we recognize that things we were told in childhood were overly simplified to the point of being wrong. "Sex is what $lutS do." "Men only care about using you." As we grow, we recognize that messages we were given no longer apply. My wife has not done this. She has literally not grown up. Talking to her was like talking to a 12 year old. "Ooh that's gross" "Don't say the word 'pu$$y' or 'making love'". An example is that she would not talk openly about sex to me or or therapist. When we started therapy, she would literally say something like "We did 'it' last week, so I don't see why he's not happy now". It just shows that she literally thought I only wanted sex. No, I wanted all of her. But after 14 years of a sexless marriage, I fell out of love last year. And a few months ago my libido tanked, rarely even masturbating. I'm not even interested in sex with her at the moment. It's awful being here, because I want a physical and loving relationship, like when we dated, but that is ancient history now. And yes, I lost respect for her when I realized that she stuck to her childhood hangups over the reality of a faithful and loving husband sitting in front of her, patiently waiting and encouraging her.


you started your thread off focusing on the wrong issue. you likely wouldnt give two ****s about herpes if you were enjoying an amazing sex life with your wife. 

it IS possible for your wife to change. in order for that to happen though, you must change. not change what you feel, the changes in feelings will come later. the change needs to lie in actions.

what you are doing is not causing change in your wife. it IS causing changes in the way you feel, which is certainly causing changes in the way your wife feels. but thats just life. emotions are ephemeral at best.

if you want your wife to understand what sex means to you, then you need to find out what the equivalent emotional trigger is for her. and treat it the way she treats sex. so, if she only wants to have sex once a month, then tell her that you will give her whatever her emotional equivalent is once a month. if its affection and hugs and kisses and such, then she gets them once a month. and state clearly that you are doing it for this exact reason; so that she can better understand how you _feel_.

once that is established, and you are certain that she really understands how deprived of love you _feel_, and you are certain that she understands that you will treat her emotional needs the way she treats yours, then sit down and discuss with her a plan that leaves both of you feeling loved. IE, she will initiate sex X many times a week, and you will initiate non sexual affection X many times a week. 

if you two can get to that point without hating each other for getting there, then you can probably actually get your awesome sex life back. 

now here is the thing that most people seem to fvck up... if you change in order to get her to change, then let your wife change and don't resent her for "making" you change. 

most people don't believe they can change themselves, but they want someone else to change for them. but, if you ever get to the point where you have changed yourself and accept your new self, then you will know it is possible and will not resent anyone else their growing pains as they go through their own process of change.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> fwiw, I did NOT say you weren't trying.


Yeah, you're right, @Rowan suggested I was not trying, at least in the right way. I hit the reply button on the wrong post :nerd:. 



turnera said:


> I said you were trying, in fact: trying to get HER to be what YOU wanted. In other words, you've been spinning your wheels trying to turn your wife into YOUR version of what she should be.
> ...
> How do I know? Because I'm married to someone like you. And I learned long ago that he is NOT my best friend. I am HIS best friend, he tells me everything, he has a blast with me. But he doesn't know a thing about me because I learned many years ago that he wasn't interested in learning more about the real me, only the one he wanted me to be. So that's what I give him.


Wow. That was insightful. I appreciate that a lot. I need time to think about what you've said here. 

There are a couple points I'd like to make though. Before marriage, she was HD, very affectionate, and initiated often. When dating, I took her to Paris and the beaches in Mexico. I thought she enjoyed it, but maybe not. I'm sure we both changed when we got married, but she changed in very significant ways. I have wracked my brain trying to figure out if it was something I did, or related to her leaving her parents home. I just want the woman I married. Maybe she cannot ever be that person again. Maybe she never was that person. I have no idea. 

And another point. With respect to listening to her, perhaps you're right that I am not really listening. Maybe I am not her friend. I have sat her down and asked her multiple times through our marriage, what are your life dreams, I want to share them with you. She literally told me "I don't have dreams like you." "I like being comfortable at home." I have no idea what to do with that!? Meanwhile, I am parasailing, paragliding, flying biplanes, jet skiing, scuba diving, and traveling the U.S. and the world (Europe, Asia, Central America). Sometimes we do them together and sometimes, I go with my son or solo. I feel like I am desperately trying to experience life and she just wants to sit at home and die. Now, I have no clue what point I was trying to make there.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I was HD before marriage, too. Because I was taught you won't ever get a man if you don't give him tons of sex. And I learned through experience that you get dumped if you don't. So I did. Never wanted it, but I acted like I did. 

As for your wife, she was taught that the female is not worthy if the man doesn't pick her; that she has to 'be' something for him to want her. So she 'became' something - your sex kitten. And, as she was taught, she did it for ONE reason - to get you to want to marry her. In her FOO, that's all it was for. So that's what she did. She probably, despite your ridiculous actions taken to turn her into something she's not, thinks she did the right thing, the right way, and just got stuck with a husband who doesn't understand that that's the way it's supposed to be. 

Women like her and me were taught to be 'on' for the man; to enjoy what he enjoys, to want what he wants...basically to be pickable. I'm pretty sure she's never even figured out what she would do if she had never married you. She likely was never allowed or asked to envision a life without a man. As a complete human being. 

Which is why I keep bringing up letting HER go to therapy ALONE. 

I don't have dreams like yours, either. Does that make me wrong? All I want at this point is a tiny house on the beach and a cat. To wake up stress free, to spend the day not getting questioned about what I accomplished or judged. To go to bed stress free, listening to the ocean.

The point you were trying to make is you two are NOT compatible. For many reasons. Most of all because you for whatever reason are incapable of seeing HER wants and needs as VALID wants and needs. 

She doesn't like scuba diving? What's wrong with her? Do you even see the hypocrisy? "She wants to sit at home and die."

No. She wants to do what makes HER happy.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> you started your thread off focusing on the wrong issue. you likely wouldnt give two ****s about herpes if you were enjoying an amazing sex life with your wife.


True. 



As'laDain said:


> it IS possible for your wife to change. in order for that to happen though, you must change. not change what you feel, the changes in feelings will come later. the change needs to lie in actions.
> 
> what you are doing is not causing change in your wife. it IS causing changes in the way you feel, which is certainly causing changes in the way your wife feels. but thats just life. emotions are ephemeral at best.


I agree. 




As'laDain said:


> once that is established, and you are certain that she really understands how deprived of love you _feel_, and you are certain that she understands that you will treat her emotional needs the way she treats yours, then sit down and discuss with her a plan that leaves both of you feeling loved. IE, she will initiate sex X many times a week, and you will initiate non sexual affection X many times a week.


You sound like our therapist there. That is a complement. I think she fully understands how deprived of love I feel. But, I think the resentment (from years of rejection) will not let me initiate with her (whether it's talking about our feelings or affection). I need to see who she really IS and I need to believe it. I need to see actions.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> I'm pretty sure she's never even figured out what she would do if she had never married you. She likely was never allowed or asked to envision a life without a man. As a complete human being.


Actually, she always told me that she would have been a nun if I never came along.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Maybe you should let her go be one.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

File for divorce. Let her be free to find a man who wants her as she is and not as he wishes her to be. Free yourself to find a woman who wants to be what you want.

My wife did the same thing. Pretended to enjoy sex to get me to marry her. Gain enormous weight to make herself unattractive so I wouldn't want sex with her. Did not work. I still wanted sex. But eventually I gave up trying to get it. She lost all the excess weight. Kept it off. Now I don't want sex even though she is willing (no desire, but some willingness).

All you will accomplish by staying with her is to continue to warp and twist both of you into less and less functional versions. Stop it. Free yourselves to relax and stretch and become better versions of yourselves. It seems neither of you can accomplish this while married to the other. The shame here is not that your marriage doesn't work for either of you. The shame is that neither of you is willing to admit it.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> I was HD before marriage, too. Because I was taught you won't ever get a man if you don't give him tons of sex. And I learned through experience that you get dumped if you don't. So I did. Never wanted it, but I acted like I did.
> 
> As for your wife, she was taught that the female is not worthy if the man doesn't pick her; that she has to 'be' something for him to want her. So she 'became' something - your sex kitten. And, as she was taught, she did it for ONE reason - to get you to want to marry her. In her FOO, that's all it was for. So that's what she did. She probably, despite your ridiculous actions taken to turn her into something she's not, thinks she did the right thing, the right way, and just got stuck with a husband who doesn't understand that that's the way it's supposed to be.


That marriage is supposed to be sexless after kids? 



turnera said:


> Women like her and me were taught to be 'on' for the man; to enjoy what he enjoys, to want what he wants...basically to be pickable. I'm pretty sure she's never even figured out what she would do if she had never married you. She likely was never allowed or asked to envision a life without a man. As a complete human being.


Probably true.



turnera said:


> Which is why I keep bringing up letting HER go to therapy ALONE.


She has had about 6-8 solo sessions about 9 months ago. 



turnera said:


> I don't have dreams like yours, either. Does that make me wrong? All I want at this point is a tiny house on the beach and a cat. To wake up stress free, to spend the day not getting questioned about what I accomplished or judged. To go to bed stress free, listening to the ocean.


Of course we all have different dreams and we make compromises and fulfill what means the most. I would love to retire with her on the beach in a tiny house. But, she never expresses he dreams to me. And, I also want a love life. If she truly does not want a love life, then she is the one that needs to be honest with herself and let me find happiness elsewhere. Instead of keeping me like a caged pet. 

But, you are on to something here. Our therapist said she is codependent and does what she thinks I want to do (except affection and sex). So, I have no idea whether she is suppressing what she wants. Honestly, we've talked about this in therapy. She doesn't even know who she is. She has always just tried to be who everyone thought she should be. 



turnera said:


> The point you were trying to make is you two are NOT compatible.


If we are, it's because she misrepresented who she was. 



turnera said:


> She doesn't like scuba diving? What's wrong with her? Do you even see the hypocrisy? "She wants to sit at home and die."


I was trying to share my interests with her. Trying to spark something. 



turnera said:


> No. She wants to do what makes HER happy.


But she makes no effort to communicate to me what that is...


Overall though... You are scaring the SH!t out of me, because you are making a lot of sense and you sound just like my wife. If I knew that all the reasons I married her for were an act, I would be livid! Justifiably. And divorce her in an instant. I am amazed at your candor. 

So, you tricked your husband into marrying you by pretending to be someone you are not. Then after marriage, you have the nerve to criticize your husband for not understanding who you? ARE YOU SERIOUS!? Do you enjoy playing games with someone's life?

I have a solo session with my therapist next week. I am going to read your post in my therapy session and ask my therapist if she thinks my wife's motives are the same as you. My therapist might be a little pissed though because she keeps telling me to get off the forums...


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> Maybe you should let her go be one.


Ha. Now she disagrees with the church too much.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

As for HSV 1. There can be complications (to which I have had).

Herpactic vertigo. Nasty complication.

There is also the very rare complication of herpactic meningitis.

I can understand why one would rather not be infected. However, I still think, for at least HSV1, there is way too much social stigma.

When we are stigmatized then the conversations that should be taking place between potential partners and even patient/doctors does not happen.

A lack of information and knowledge occurs and how do you take care of yourself (let alone another person) if you don't have the knowledge base.

By the way I'm an HSV1 symptomatic person.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

wantshelp said:


> And to minimize her anxiety, I specifically sought a female therapist. That is me trying.


Generally speaking most women feel highly threatened by another woman giving relationship/sex advice to her husband. 

Imagine her going to go see a male therapist to complain about you and sex. You know, just to be sure and minimize YOUR anxiety. 

Now if SHE insisted on the therapist being female, then OK, you did the right thing.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

CantePe said:


> As for HSV 1. There can be complications (to which I have had).
> 
> Herpactic vertigo. Nasty complication.


Sorry to hear that. I had vertigo once. It was awful. Is it recurring then? 



CantePe said:


> However, I still think, for at least HSV1, there is way too much social stigma.
> 
> When we are stigmatized then the conversations that should be taking place between potential partners and even patient/doctors does not happen.


I completely agree the stigma needs to stop. And, IMHO, doctors should do a better job of helping all their patients understand their condition.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Generally speaking most women feel highly threatened by another woman giving relationship/sex advice to her husband.
> 
> Imagine her going to go see a male therapist to complain about you and sex. You know, just to be sure and minimize YOUR anxiety.
> 
> Now if SHE insisted on the therapist being female, then OK, you did the right thing.


Really @badsanta? That's what you're worried about? Ha. Trust me when I tell you, she would have never said a word about our sex life to a male therapist. She would never consider a male gynecologist either. And, I felt a woman would be able to more legitimately tell her that sex 5x to 10x per year is not OK. Now, that might be sexist... but oh well. 

Oh, and I think she was relieved when I told her the therapist was female.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> That marriage is supposed to be sexless after kids?


Most young women, especially those who are not worldly, don't think that far. Or else it's never been discussed growing up so they have no idea. My mom said she didn't learn that men were anatomically different from women until she entered nursing school. Remember, you are assigning YOUR experience, YOUR knowledge, to her. And that's not fair.



> She has had about 6-8 solo sessions about 9 months ago.


I suggest you give up the MC sessions and just ask her to go by herself so she can figure out who she is.



> Of course we all have different dreams and we make compromises and fulfill what means the most. I would love to retire with her on the beach in a tiny house. But, she never expresses her dreams to me.


Because you are not safe to share that with. She's not stupid. She KNOWS that whatever she is, wants, cares about, is not what YOU care about. And she has learned that you are only interested in what YOU want. So she remains silent.



> And, I also want a love life. If she truly does not want a love life, then she is the one that needs to be honest with herself and let me find happiness elsewhere. Instead of keeping me like a caged pet.


Oh, so now, she's keeping you? Right.



> But, you are on to something here. Our therapist said she is codependent and does what she thinks I want to do (except affection and sex). So, I have no idea whether she is suppressing what she wants. Honestly, we've talked about this in therapy. She doesn't even know who she is. She has always just tried to be who everyone thought she should be.


That's how she was raised. Is it her fault that the only information she got growing up was to be 'on' for a man so he would pick her? Or else go be a nun? I assume she went straight from daddy to you? So you took on the daddy role, the person who tells her what to do, when, how. She never even had a chance to be a complete whole human being with her own thoughts and feelings and plans and desires. Same with me. 

Boys are encouraged to go out and have fun, hang out, get into trouble, boys will be boys. Girls in certain circumstances are encouraged to be 'good,' never get in trouble, never speak up, never rock the boat, learn to take care of everyone else. Of course she doesn't know who she is - she was never given the chance to BE anyone. Not without a leash to another person.



> If we are [incompatible], it's because she misrepresented who she was.


Again, you're here trying to BLAME her for what she was given growing up. I guarantee nobody in her FOO ever said the word herpes, let alone explained what it might mean. She didn't know HOW to misrepresent herself, since she didn't know who 'herself' even was. But go ahead and blame her. See how far that gets you. Oh, right. Nowhere.



> I was trying to share my interests with her. Trying to spark something.


YOUR interests. Spark a personality into her that YOU would like. How many times have you tried to see if the way SHE likes life would be ok, too? 



> Overall though... You are scaring the SH!t out of me, because you are making a lot of sense and you sound just like my wife. If I knew that all the reasons I married her for were an act, I would be livid! Justifiably. And divorce her in an instant. I am amazed at your candor.
> 
> So, you tricked your husband into marrying you by pretending to be someone you are not. Then after marriage, you have the nerve to criticize your husband for not understanding who you? ARE YOU SERIOUS!? Do you enjoy playing games with someone's life?


It wasn't an act! It was what we were taught we were supposed to do! You keep assigning ill intentions to her. She could be doing the same thing to YOU, but I don't see you complaining about THAT. 

I didn't trick anybody. I did all I knew how to do - please a guy. I didn't even understand that I was allowed to have thoughts of my own until I was at least 40. I was doing what I was taught women do. I had no idea other women were out there expecting equal treatment or doing what THEY wanted to do. Do you know that I never went anywhere without my husband until our daughter moved away to college and I finally felt I had a 'right' to go somewhere (to visit her) alone? 

You are mighty self-righteous, and seem incredibly incapable of seeing things from your wife's side. 

Maybe you _should _print out my posts and read them to her, if you DARE.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

wantshelp said:


> Sorry to hear that. I had vertigo once. It was awful. Is it recurring then?
> 
> I completely agree the stigma needs to stop. And, IMHO, doctors should do a better job of helping all their patients understand their condition.


I had it for a month. It was horrible but has not recurred and that was 3 years ago.

It may be recurring for some people but luckily for me, not as of yet but I am potentially at a higher risk for recurring herpactic vertigo or even a higher risk for herpactic meningitis.

It occurred with me because I'm also a multiple sclerosis patient. MS tends to complicate other health conditions. Honestly, herpactic vertigo and meningitis are very rare complications of HSV.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

wantshelp said:


> I have a solo session with my therapist next week. I am going to read your post in my therapy session and ask my therapist if she thinks my wife's motives are the same as you. *My therapist might be a little pissed though because she keeps telling me to get off the forums...*


Your female therapist probably feels threatened for your wife via proxy about you getting relationship/sex advice from other women!

>


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> Because you are not safe to share that with. She's not stupid. She KNOWS that whatever she is, wants, cares about, is not what YOU care about. And she has learned that you are only interested in what YOU want. So she remains silent.


You're right, she is very intelligent. But, if she cannot communicate to me who she is and what she wants in life, I don't know what I can do for her. 



turnera said:


> Oh, so now, she's keeping you? Right.


Absolutely she is keeping me! My marriage vow (among other things) is keeping me married. If she releases me of that, I would go. I actually wrote out a speech that I read aloud in therapy about a year ago, and it basically ended with "if you don't truly love me, I beg you to let me go." I still have the note somewhere... 



turnera said:


> I assume she went straight from daddy to you? So you took on the daddy role, the person who tells her what to do, when, how. She never even had a chance to be a complete whole human being with her own thoughts and feelings and plans and desires. Same with me.


She had 4 years of college where she lived in a dorm with other girls. So no, she didn't go directly from daddy to me. But, I think this is a minor point. 



turnera said:


> Boys are encouraged to go out and have fun, hang out, get into trouble, boys will be boys. Girls in certain circumstances are encouraged to be 'good,' never get in trouble, never speak up, never rock the boat, learn to take care of everyone else. Of course she doesn't know who she is - she was never given the chance to BE anyone. Not without a leash to another person.


This really rings bells here. You are really making sense! 



turnera said:


> Again, you're here trying to BLAME her for what she was given growing up. I guarantee nobody in her FOO ever said the word herpes, let alone explained what it might mean. She didn't know HOW to misrepresent herself, since she didn't know who 'herself' even was. But go ahead and blame her. See how far that gets you. Oh, right. Nowhere.


This is where we disagree. If she wasn't mature enough to be honest with me and instead pretended to be someone she was not, just to marry me, that is a fraud and if true, I will blame her for that until the day I die. 



turnera said:


> YOUR interests. Spark a personality into her that YOU would like. How many times have you tried to see if the way SHE likes life would be ok, too?


Lots actually. I gave up my hobby and now I join her in the living room every evening for a few hours. She likes to watch TV, so I do that with her. She picks the shows. I watch and converse with her. From what she tells me, that's what she wants. 



turnera said:


> It wasn't an act! It was what we were taught we were supposed to do! You keep assigning ill intentions to her. She could be doing the same thing to YOU, but I don't see you complaining about THAT.


All I wanted was an honest, open, and committed marriage. That's what the vows are all about. If you were "taught" to act to get a man, that does not absolve you of your fraud. I totally believe you BTW. 



turnera said:


> I didn't trick anybody. I did all I knew how to do - please a guy. I didn't even understand that I was allowed to have thoughts of my own until I was at least 40. I was doing what I was taught women do. I had no idea other women were out there expecting equal treatment or doing what THEY wanted to do. Do you know that I never went anywhere without my husband until our daughter moved away to college and I finally felt I had a 'right' to go somewhere (to visit her) alone?


I am always supportive of my wife solo visiting her college friends and her sister. There is no question she needs to be around people other than me. 



turnera said:


> You are mighty self-righteous, and seem incredibly incapable of seeing things from your wife's side.


I don't think honesty and love were too much to expect from marriage. I hope you're wrong, but I fear you are totally right. 



turnera said:


> Maybe you _should _print out my posts and read them to her, if you DARE.


Ha! The Dare is not necessary... I'm totally reading it to her.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

CantePe said:


> I had it for a month. It was horrible but has not recurred and that was 3 years ago.


A MONTH?! That would be awful, beyond words. And MS too!?


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> If she releases me of that, I would go.


I'm not sure exactly what this means, but what it sounds like is hoping she's the first one to just conclude and say should divorce and you'd run for the door, but you don't want to be the "bad guy" and be the one to directly bring it up?

IE - "If you don't really love me ... be the one who says we should divorce so I'm not the one who's technically breaking our vows."

Which - no matter how long you are in MC, that might not be a conclusion your wife comes to. If she is not as unhappy as you, she might see no reason to say you should divorce. In her mind she likely does really love you, so she's unlikely to simply jump to the conclusion that what you are really saying is, "If you can't/won't give me the frequency of oral sex I'm hoping for, please tell me we can get a divorce." 

Hoping or wishing she'll just decide this is not likely going to get you the result you want. If divorce is an outcome you want, and it's the ultimatum you are indeed willing to go to, then you might need to be the one who puts it on the table.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> Absolutely she is keeping me! My marriage vow (among other things) is keeping me married. If she releases me of that, I would go.


Nonsense. YOU made the vow, too. And you can only leave if SHE ends the vow? Nonsense.



> This is where we disagree. If she wasn't mature enough to be honest with me and instead pretended to be someone she was not, just to marry me, that is a fraud and if true, I will blame her for that until the day I die.


And this is where I disagree. Are you aware that the human brain doesn't stop growing and changing until around age 25? And that even for several years after that, a person is still 'feeling' like a kid and not fully embracing adulthood? I was still feeling guilty for having sex with my husband when I was 30; and I'd been married 9 years! 

I knew you would, but you just LATCHED onto what I said about not being who we were and translated that into her SCREWING YOU OVER. Or leading you on. When I say being someone I'm not, I don't mean I'm going 'hey, let's see if I can lead this dude on!' I mean 'he wants me to be sexy, so I'm going to be sexy.' Can you understand that? Probably not, since you're a guy.



> All I wanted was an honest, open, and committed marriage. That's what the vows are all about. If you were "taught" to act to get a man, that does not absolve you of your fraud. I totally believe you BTW.


First, she has been giving you as much as she can of what you want; including going to therapy every.single.week for TWO freakin' years to please you. If that's not committed, I don't know what is.

And again, IT IS NOT FRAUD. But that's obviously the ONLY thing you're going to take from this - so you don't have to look at YOURSELF, so I give up. 

Good luck finding the next woman who will put up with this.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> I think that amount of trying is absolutely heroic on my part.


As someone who has this thought from time to time for caring for and living with a neurotic BPD/Narcissist relative let me say ultimately the participant's trophy for martyrdom is nothing. At least not in this lifetime (I'll let your personal religious convictions provide any answer about whether or not there are possibly any in the next lifetime, whatever that is.) If the desire here is for people to say you aren't "the bad guy" for wanting a divorce because of how you'd tried ultimately our opinion doesn't matter. 



> To me she has failed to grow up and become an adult. She lives in a world of constant paranoia


She's clinically depressed to the point she's on medication for it, or so you indicated. She's not "failed to grow up" she has a mental illness. 



> As we grow, we recognize that messages we were given no longer apply. My wife has not done this. She has literally not grown up. Talking to her was like talking to a 12 year old.


Have you ever looked at this: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/acestudy/about.html

She could have had life experience wherein "simply grow up" doesn't apply. She might be simply mentally stuck due to previous trauma in a teenage mindset. I have no idea to what degree your MC got into some of that or if it was mostly surface fixing type stuff. But - this might simply be who she is, and others have said there may or may not be a "fix" for this - this might be who she is. And your disgust or feeling she's less mature/adult than you, doesn't change that. So the question becomes can you live with her as she is if she doesn't change? And if not ... see my previous suggestion. 

If she's as immature and childish as you say, the change of her magically concluding one day you need a divorce I'm guessing is likely zero.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

wantshelp said:


> Ok, I just searched the web on this exact point, and there does seem to be some debate about that. I will concede that if you do not consider oral sex to be "real sex", and never partake in oral sex, I can see your point because it would never be sexually transmitted. But, from my perspective, oral sex is sex and that makes oral herpes an STI. Most sources concede that it is effectively an STI for all intents and purposes and should be treated as such.


Oral Herpes is NOT AN STI. You can slice it any way you like OP but you are wrong.

Lots of things can be transmitted sexually - colds & flu, gastroenteritis, tonsillitis, that does not make them STI's.

I feel sorry for your wife.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I know why this thread triggers me so much. I just remembered - vividly - a situation with my ex-fiance. He was 3 years older than me, in college, I was still a high school senior; we'd been dating for almost two years. He was telling me "I don't think you're mature enough for me. I'm going to give you six months to grow up. If you can't grow up by then, I'll just have to move on." Of course, I was a snot-dripping, blubbering pile of goo, begging - begging - him to give me another chance. 

That situation, and all the expectations, was as ridiculous as this one.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

turnera said:


> I know why this thread triggers me so much. I just remembered - vividly - a situation with my ex-fiance. He was 3 years older than me, in college, I was still a high school senior; we'd been dating for almost two years. He was telling me "I don't think you're mature enough for me. I'm going to give you six months to grow up. If you can't grow up by then, I'll just have to move on." Of course, I was a snot-dripping, blubbering pile of goo, begging - begging - him to give me another chance.
> 
> That situation, and all the expectations, was as ridiculous as this one.


It's fine to have boundaries on a person's expected and compatible maturity level. 

What's not OK is telling someone they are wrong to be the way they are, and to require change as some kind of recompense, for the "honor" of being a partner. 

Easier to just admit to yourself they aren't going to meet your expectations and let them go gently and respectfully.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

THIS:



wantshelp said:


> She was incessantly ridiculed by her mother growing up (NOT ME) and she just learned to shut up and not ask questions. So, it makes complete sense that she never asked about her infection. She didn't want to be called stupid for something she thought she should know. But just because I understand why, doesn't mean that I am not mad at her for not considering my health and overcoming her childhood programming. I am not going to get into the details, but as our marriage has gone on, there have been MANY instances where myself and my children were put at risk because she clings to this. One instance nearly killed my daughter. She called me literally yesterday because she was afraid to ask about something at work and someone was nearly hurt. She said she was afraid her coworkers would think she is stupid. I comforted her and reassured her that her reaction just shows how much she cares and that she is not stupid because she knows what to do. It is this childhood programming from her mother that just keeps persisting.


PLUS THIS:



turnera said:


> fwiw, I did NOT say you weren't trying. I said you were trying, in fact: trying to get HER to be what YOU wanted. In other words, you've been spinning your wheels trying to turn your wife into YOUR version of what she should be.
> 
> And this entire post is chock full of YOUR assumptions of how a person 'should' age, change, learn, whatever. You dragged her to therapy for more than two years because YOU weren't getting what YOU wanted. Can you even imagine what it would feel like to be forced to do something like that - for TWO years, week in, week out - because someone else is telling you (and the therapist and whomever else) that you are defective?
> 
> ...


Do you not see the irony? 

She's gone from mom, to you. 

Same dynamic, why would she behave differently? She doesn't know anything different. 

Also - antidepressants are widely known to cause libido to tank, and to cause weight gain. 

And - you mentioned you have a serious sexual injury, from what you described it sounds like something that would be beyond life altering. You are effectively "disabled" in a way. I feel the anger in your posts coming through...from post #1. It seems to be directed squarely at your wife. The injury isn't her fault, is it? She cannot fix you, can she? Anger is one of the stages of grief, and if you've got a serious injury as you've described, there's going to be some grieving there... Have you sought individual therapy for yourself to cope with it? Psychotherapy? You mentioned you had already gone to a ton of specialists for the physical issue. It's just a lot of mental baggage to carry with you.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

wantshelp said:


> A MONTH?! That would be awful, beyond words. And MS too!?


I can laugh now because I'm not experiencing it now but I had a gig (deejaying) for Halloween at one of the local bars (same year the tampon beat up an unknown superhero while a ninja watched - that's a recorded 911 call that had to be read out in court. No one could keep a straight face in the court room for that one)...

I had such bad vertigo that night I looked more drunk (balance and walking) than the drunk people and didn't have to pay a dime to look that way!

Yes it sucks but I manage because I have to. On top of that, 17 years married, he has never presented HSV1 symptoms and neither have three of my five kids (unfortunately, two have but only once and never since).

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

CantePe said:


> I can laugh now because I'm not experiencing it now but I had a gig (deejaying) for Halloween at one of the local bars (same year the tampon beat up an unknown superhero while a ninja watched - that's a recorded 911 call that had to be read out in court. No one could keep a straight face in the court room for that one)...
> 
> I had such bad vertigo that night I looked more drunk (balance and walking) than the drunk people and didn't have to pay a dime to look that way!
> 
> Yes it sucks but I manage because I have to. On top of that, 17 years married, he has never presented HSV1 symptoms and neither have three of my five kids (unfortunately, two have but only once and never since).


Quick little threadjack, but I couldn't resist. If you are still suffering from vertigo, this might help. Worth a try. Simple Fix To Vertigo Continues To Be Widely Viewed Video « CBS Denver


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

CynthiaDe said:


> Quick little threadjack, but I couldn't resist. If you are still suffering from vertigo, this might help. Worth a try. Simple Fix To Vertigo Continues To Be Widely Viewed Video « CBS Denver


This is for positional vertigo not herpactic vertigo. Two very different "creatures".

It doesn't work for herpactic vertigo because it isn't the tiny crystals in the ear that are mal-positioned in herpactic vertigo.

However, it's a great way to do the "epley maneuver" at home for benign positional vertigo. Herpactic vertigo isn't benign unfortunately. Thank you though, this will help someone else with BPS.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

Just a quick one:

Herpactic vertigo is caused by viral vestibular neuritis caused by the HSV virus. It can also cause viral labyrinthitis which also can cause herpactic type vertigo.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

turnera said:


> I know why this thread triggers me so much. I just remembered - vividly - a situation with my ex-fiance. He was 3 years older than me, in college, I was still a high school senior; we'd been dating for almost two years. He was telling me "I don't think you're mature enough for me. I'm going to give you six months to grow up. If you can't grow up by then, I'll just have to move on." Of course, I was a snot-dripping, blubbering pile of goo, begging - begging - him to give me another chance.
> 
> That situation, and all the expectations, was as ridiculous as this one.


OMG, I was in a similar situation when I went off to college and was trying to do a long distance relationship with my girlfriend back in high school. For me it was not an issue of maturity, but more of being exposed to a much larger crowd of people that shared similar interests in career as me. Back home I felt unique and that there was no one else like me, but once in college it was more like discovering there were other people just like me, and hundreds of them. Going through that experience made me want to be in a relationship with someone that both understood and complimented my career. That girlfriend back in high school quickly transformed into someone I could see that was not going to work out for me. 

Unlike your ex-fiance, I handled things the way most men do, and just abruptly cut off all communications with my high school girlfriend with no explanations. I reflect in that and often feel horrible about it, as she did not deserve to be treated that way. To date, I have never spoken to her about what happened and why. But there was this one awkward moment where my wife told me she went with my sister one day to get her hair done together. Turns out that this hair dresser is this ex-girlfriend from high school, and was very interested in cutting my wife's hair. Fortunately my wife did come home with a very nice hairdo that day, but OMG that was awkward on so many levels. Apparently my sister tells this ex-girlfriend all about me, particularly anything that is horrible! 

But as the story ends, my wife and I share the same career. We completely understand each other while no one else does, not even our parents. 

Just for the sake of this thread, I'm pretty sure my ex-girlfriend in high school may have had a cold sore on occasion. But I don't remember for sure, nor did I order a bunch of exams to find out if it is OK for me to get close to my wife these days. 

Badsanta


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Wait. So you're telling me that my boyfriend was honorable in manipulating and controlling me? Uh...ok, never thought about it that way. So I should be grateful he shamed me and it was so traumatic that it's one of the top 5 worst days of my life. Ok, then. 

fwiw, he was going to school IN TOWN. We saw each other every day.

And it turns out he'd been cheating on me the entire 3 years we were engaged with his old girlfriend, and the only reason I found out was he took MY car to take her on a day trip while I was working and wrecked my car.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

kag123 said:


> She's gone from mom, to you. Same dynamic, why would she behave differently? She doesn't know anything different.


THAT is an interesting thought. My mother-in-law is domineering and ridicules everyone, rather viciously. I can barely tolerate being around her now, knowing how she treated my wife growing up. But with respect to me being the replacement... I don't know, I am the complete opposite from my Mother-in-law, it's hard to see. Perhaps, it's not about similarities and it's more about she needed someone to be in the box of authority over her and I was the warm body to fill it. But, I truly wanted to be her partner and fulfill each other's aspirations. There was a 4 year break between living with her parents and living with me. And when she was in college (during those 4 years) she was happy and made good friends with her roommates. We went to college together. I visited her and her roommates a few times. Then, shortly after we graduated, we moved in together. I worked while she got her Masters degree and she was happier than ever living with me, and she made new friends at grad school. Then we had sex one night (as we did almost every night) and when she was finished with me, basking is the oxytocin, she proposed to me. Then we got married and left the state to find jobs. That's when she changed and affection and sexual relations started to disappear (sex maybe once a month). I got us into marriage counseling. After about 6 sessions, the therapist just looked at her and said this is marriage, you have to be willing to try [to have sex with your husband]. So, we went home and she tried to be more affectionate for a few months. Then things returned to affectionless/sexless. It took her a lot longer to make friends, but she did. Then when she got pregnant she said she wanted to stay home with the kids. I said we can't because the cost of living is too high without you working. So, I found a good job in another state with a VERY low cost of living, and we happily moved into a "grown up" house and had our 2 kids. She stayed at home for 6 years until the kids started school. During that time, she tried to socialize the kids and meet other moms, but wasn't very successful. This is where the depression started. I pointed out that both her sister and mom were on anti-depressants. But she refused to listen to me. She was offended that I would suggest medication and demanded I never suggest it again. Things got worse and worse. I told her that she needs to talk to an individual counselor. She agreed and made an appointment. The visit was an absolute disaster. The counselor tried to sell her some herbal remedies and the her suggestions were unprofessional (although, I cannot specifically recall what they were). She said "counseling is worthless, I won't do that again." So, she went to her gyno and she prescribed SSRIs (antidepressants). It helped her attitude, but her sex drive was now completely gone. Fast forward a few more years. We have been sexless for about a decade now. I had reached my limit. I scoured the internet for the BEST therapist in town, because if the next therapist is bad, she may never try again. It didn't matter how much it cost or even if they were in-network. Our marriage was in real danger, and I couldn't have another screw-up. I got us in and she (the therapist) is amazing. She has uncovered so much I never knew about her and myself. Every session is eye-opening and very introspective. That's when my sexual dysfunction happened. 

But, honestly, I'm beginning to agree that the dysfunction is not the 'real' problem and neither is the HSV. The problem is that she changed after marriage and maybe we are just not compatible anymore. 



kag123 said:


> Also - antidepressants are widely known to cause libido to tank, and to cause weight gain.


And that is EXACTLY what happened! What little libido she had was gone now. I insisted that she take the ones without sexual side effects, but she said "no, this is working for me." She didn't give a crap that is was sending our marriage into a death spiral. When we met our current therapist, she sent my wife to a specialist and we spent 5 months going on and off different drugs, until they finally tried the one I suggested all along, then she was better. But the damage is done. 



kag123 said:


> And - you mentioned you have a serious sexual injury, from what you described it sounds like something that would be beyond life altering. You are effectively "disabled" in a way.


I can still physically perform any sex act, including PIV, so from the woman's perspective, I am not disabled. However, for me sex has to be mind-blowingly awesome (in my head) for it to have a chance of giving me an orgasm. It sounds like this is the case for many women, that sex has to be great for an orgasm, so I don't consider it to be an unreasonable burden. But, my wife isn't that vixen anymore and has not been since I put the ring on her finger. 



kag123 said:


> I feel the anger in your posts coming through...from post #1.


You are perceptive. I tried to be objective, but sometimes I can't keep it contained. 




kag123 said:


> It seems to be directed squarely at your wife. The injury isn't her fault, is it?


You're right. No, it is not her fault or mine at all. It was a terrible medical accident. 



kag123 said:


> She cannot fix you, can she?


I don't think so, but the specialists (and urologists) have told me "use it or lose it." The penis requires regular activity and stimulation or else it can atrophy. I anticipate a physical fix coming my way. But, I strongly believe it's possible to overcome if she was more passionate and eager at sex. Others here have suggested and I do believe that it is a mental challenge for me. I need to get to that heightened level of arousal without being able to feel her touch me. So, sex needs to be more than me offering sex and when I don't get rejected, she essentially lays there. Whether that means tying me up, or teasing me, or just ripping off each other's clothes, I need her to do more than just lay there and I need to know that she wants it. I literally NEED her to be more passionate. She says she wants it in therapy. But her actions tell a different story. I need her to be a partner and help me figure this out and she isn't eager to help me. 



kag123 said:


> Anger is one of the stages of grief, and if you've got a serious injury as you've described, there's going to be some grieving there... Have you sought individual therapy for yourself to cope with it? Psychotherapy?  You mentioned you had already gone to a ton of specialists for the physical issue. It's just a lot of mental baggage to carry with you.


You are totally right. Yes, I have.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> Nonsense. YOU made the vow, too. And you can only leave if SHE ends the vow? Nonsense.


I see your rationale there. If I think it's valid for her to break the vow, it should be for me as well. I get that. But, it's not nonsense. 



turnera said:


> And this is where I disagree. Are you aware that the human brain doesn't stop growing and changing until around age 25? And that even for several years after that, a person is still 'feeling' like a kid and not fully embracing adulthood? I was still feeling guilty for having sex with my husband when I was 30; and I'd been married 9 years!


WOW. My wife totally feels guilty about having sex while married. Why do you feel guilty? 



turnera said:


> First, she has been giving you as much as she can of what you want; including going to therapy every.single.week for TWO freakin' years to please you. If that's not committed, I don't know what is.


It's not much of a commitment for her since she takes the day off of work just for this. And, as far as she is concerned, a sexless marriage is fine. Why would she change a thing? She has achieved her goals. She does what she wants, buys whatever she wants, works when she wants, and has affection only when she wants it. That's not a partnership. And that's not what marriage is. 

In a sexless marriage, the rejector has all the power. 



turnera said:


> And again, IT IS NOT FRAUD. But that's obviously the ONLY thing you're going to take from this - so you don't have to look at YOURSELF, so I give up.


You're actually an amazingly forthcoming person on these forums. I sincerely hope you continue to offer your perspective. It is truly valued.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Satya said:


> It's fine to have boundaries on a person's expected and compatible maturity level.
> 
> What's not OK is telling someone they are wrong to be the way they are, and to require change as some kind of recompense, for the "honor" of being a partner.
> 
> Easier to just admit to yourself they aren't going to meet your expectations and let them go gently and respectfully.


I get what you're saying. Don't expect people to change for you and just move on to someone else. Not as easy once you are married. And, @turnera suggested that prior to marriage was all an act to get a man. That's what some girls were trained to do. So it's not so easy when you can't discern whether it was all an act or she just needs help getting through depression.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

wantshelp said:


> I get what you're saying. Don't expect people to change for you and just move on to someone else. Not as easy once you are married. And, @turnera suggested that prior to marriage was all an act to get a man. That's what some girls were trained to do. So it's not so easy when you can't discern whether it was all an act or she just needs help getting through depression.


It goes back to the level of maturity @turnera mentioned. 

Young immature women have very little sense of self. They just do what they think (and are told by peers) is right. They have very little guidance and too few genuine role models to aspire to. 

It's not until full brain development (late 20s/early 30s) that they usually mature and have a complete form of self identity, wholly separate from what the female "herd" thinks is right. They realize that what a lot of the world expects of them is their CHOICE to either follow or disregard, to walk their own path. It brings out a maturity and confidence that shows. 

When a mature man ready to meet such a woman does meet her, he knows she's got a healthy sense of self and less likely to have identity issues, self esteem issues, and the overwhelming need to please everything and everyone but herself. But again, the man able to see this has to go through HIS own awakening and maturity to know what he truly WANTS in a woman.

And I actually think it's very easy to leave someone not right for you, married or not. I did it. Many here did it. I would have found it much harder and more destructive to me if I'd made myself stay. I'm not always for divorce, I believe in giving a good effort, but I also believe in that effort having a reasonable end date if things don't pan out. 

Life carries on, with or without you.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Ok so you need some mind blowing first date type of sex from her - in your mind this is your only chance at perhaps experiencing good sex again with your injury. 

My questions would be: Are you sure that this would work? Sex is "mental" right, so I assume you've thought about what turns you on the most and figured that if you could create that perfect storm, it might produce results. On paper it sounds like a good idea. But I see problems with that:

What if it doesn't work? What is plan B? 

Let's say it DOES work - the type of atmosphere you are looking for isn't sustainable long term. Even in a brand new relationship, the brain chemicals associated with the newness of it all (part of why everything seems so thrilling) wear off over time. So you'd be left with futility trying to keep that going. Perhaps even constantly having to up the ante each time to recreate that excitement you need. You can become desensitized to virtually anything once the novelty wears off. 

Then - I am not even sure you COULD create that ideal atmosphere in your current state of your relationship. You are asking your wife - someone who has zero sex drive on a good day - who is also knee deep in her own sexual baggage and the anger swirling within your marriage - to perform a terrific play for you, but to also make sure it doesn't appear that she's simply performing for your benefit. It must be 100% authentic and genuine for it to work, right? 

The thing is...you can ask her to perform the play, but you can't make her WANT the experience the same way you do. 

Have you explored any therapy on your own to improve the mental experience? There are some types of meditation and trance that you can be taught by a therapist that can be used for those with these issues. That may be a better long term solution for you?

A lot of the posters here have picked up on your tone. I don't think anyone would discount how hard you are working with the therapy that you are going through. BUT, being honest with you, I was immediately bristled by you the moment I began reading your posts. Your writing came across as angry, blaming, antagonistic. And this thread started with several pages of blow up about a very small issue on the grand scheme of things in your marriage. If you latch onto things that vehemently over a comparatively "minor" issue (compared to the other things going on in your marriage currently), it leaves us to wonder...how do you react to the big issues?

If that is any indication of how you feel about your wife, _even if you don't voice it out loud to her _, then how do you expect to heal your marriage with that amount of sourness for her. It appears thaat you are trying to force yourself to love someone that you loathe. And believe me, she KNOWS how you feel about her. That is why I said - do you not see the irony between how she grew up and the marriage she is in? True, your intentions may be 180 degrees different from her mother's. But the fact that you both judge her so harshly and place blame so heavily onto her - she has learned it's normal to be framed as the bad guy, to be guilty before proven innocent, and to lay quietly accepting punishment rather than stand up and fight against it. It's all that she has really known in the closest relationships in her life.

If you've been framed for ill intentions for your entire life, it is easy to begin feeling like wow - I must really BE this terrible person everyone thinks I am! It can cause you to distrust your reality, if what you feel about yourself is so different from what everyone on the outside sees. You start to believe others before you believe your own inner voice. It makes you scared to make your own decisions, to have your own wants and desires, because you have learned from a young age that anything you come up with on your own is "wrong" or "evil". So you turn into a shell of a person just waiting for your next orders from the one in charge and hoping not to rock the boat too much. Depression seems a normal side effect of such an atmosphere. 

The fact that you truly think your wife may have purposefully put on an act to reel you in, and has kept up that act over 220 hours of therapy, is truly jaw dropping. Either she is an evil genius plotting against you for the last 15+ years, or she is a broken human being who is just trying to claw her way through her life and marriage the only way she knew how. Which do you think is more likely? Again, the tone is of accusation and suspicion. 

If you were unfairly framed for something you didn't do - assigned false intentions that you didn't really have - and painted to be at fault for most of your life - how would you react? Perhaps by learning that those closest to you are scary, angry and not safe to be vulnerable with. Perhaps by always choosing the path of least resistance in life and finding ways to seek your happiness away from the people closest to you. ("She does what she wants, buys what she wants, work when she wants...") If you're already in "trouble" before you've even done anything wrong, what incentive do you have to do what your husband is telling you to do? He's going to be mad at you no matter what...might as well do something for yourself once in awhile.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

wantshelp said:


> I need her to be a partner and help me figure this out and she isn't eager to help me.


NO. You need an enthusiastic partner if you want to have a sex life. But it isn't going to be your current wife. Decide whether you want a sex life or this woman to be your wife. You aren't going to get both.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

wantshelp said:


> My wife totally feels guilty about having sex while married.


Feels guilty?? Why? 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> WOW. My wife totally feels guilty about having sex while married. Why do you feel guilty?


I don't anymore, but until I was about 40, I was still operating on my FOO, my upbringing, for all of my 'who I am' - and that FOO taught me that girls who have sex are bad people. Period. So to me, sex equated with me being bad, shameful, disgusting and I just pictured my mom thinking of me doing it and being disappointed. Even though I was married. I specifically remember thinking that when I was about 30, and, as I was starting to mature into a complete woman around then (not needing to rely on others for guidance, etc.), I remember thinking this is silly; why am I doing this? But it still took me many years for the LOGIC of it to go away. But that core feeling that sex is bad has never left me because, well, it's how I was raised; it's part of who I am.



> It's not much of a commitment for her since she takes the day off of work just for this. And, as far as she is concerned, a sexless marriage is fine. Why would she change a thing? She has achieved her goals. She does what she wants, buys whatever she wants, works when she wants, and has affection only when she wants it. That's not a partnership. And that's not what marriage is.
> 
> In a sexless marriage, the rejector has all the power.


Actually, the rejected has the ability to walk away, which is even more power. But you have to be willing to do it. The other power you have is no longer meeting all her needs and providing her the ability to do what she wants, buy what she wants, etc.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> I get what you're saying. Don't expect people to change for you and just move on to someone else. Not as easy once you are married. And, @turnera suggested that prior to marriage was all an act to get a man. That's what some girls were trained to do. So it's not so easy when you can't discern whether it was all an act or she just needs help getting through depression.


Boy, you really latched onto that, didn't you? In YOUR mind, you read what I said as some conniving little beeyotch, rubbing her hands together in glee when determining which boy she was going to set her sights on and TRICK into marriage.

And I tried to tell you, more than once, that that is NOT what I said. I said that some women believe that their role in life is to become somebody's spouse. In my day, if you weren't married by age 23, you were LITERALLY considered an old maid. It was a matter of shame. Our ONE goal in life was to get married.

And I did not say 'it was all an act.' I said we became what we thought the man wanted, so as to please him. How would WE know that what was exciting and fun at first would later turn into a life of taking each other for granted, no dating, no fun, tons of household responsibilities, etc., and we'd no longer feel animated to keep BEING what he wanted? We don't come with a manual. Most of us have NO psychological training when we get married. It took me 20 years of reading every psychology book I could get my hand on, to understand why I was so unhappy. 

When I got married, I fully intended to make him happy. Along the way, he did a lot of Love Busting that left me more and more unhappy, depressed, and not wanting to please him; only to protect myself FROM him. He, too, treated me like a child, like you do. And I eventually outgrew it and stopped making pleasing him a priority because he clearly wasn't interested in learning how to make ME happy. 

But nowhere in all that mess was I trying to trick him, put on an act. I just stopped doing what I did before we were married because, frankly, HE wasn't doing what he did before we were married, either. 

I've asked you before to take an honest look at the marriage, at HER feelings, if she's really getting what she wants in life, what she would change. Psychologically speaking, if you were meeting her top needs and also not Love Busting her, but also standing up for what you deserve in the marriage, she'd be much more likely to respond positively to you. Like we keep saying, you can't change her. But you CAN change YOU so as to make her WANT to change for you, to please you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Satya said:


> It goes back to the level of maturity @turnera mentioned.
> 
> Young immature women have very little sense of self. They just do what they think (and are told by peers) is right. They have very little guidance and too few genuine role models to aspire to.
> 
> ...


Thank you! This is exactly what I was trying to say. This is exactly what I went through and most likely, your wife, too. She now has no fear of losing you, she's getting a good enough life, she just has to do certain things you require, and she gets to carry on with her life. Remember, she would have been content to be a nun. She doesn't want or need much. 

Until you can pull yourself out of your self-imposed view of what should and shouldn't be, and start to see who she really is, and accept that, you'll continue to spin your wheels.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

kag123 said:


> If you latch onto things that vehemently over a comparatively "minor" issue (compared to the other things going on in your marriage currently), it leaves us to wonder...how do you react to the big issues?
> 
> If that is any indication of how you feel about your wife, _even if you don't voice it out loud to her _, then how do you expect to heal your marriage with that amount of sourness for her. It appears that you are trying to force yourself to love someone that you loathe. And believe me, she KNOWS how you feel about her. That is why I said - do you not see the irony between how she grew up and the marriage she is in? True, your intentions may be 180 degrees different from her mother's. But the fact that you both judge her so harshly and place blame so heavily onto her - she has learned it's normal to be framed as the bad guy, to be guilty before proven innocent, and to lay quietly accepting punishment rather than stand up and fight against it. It's all that she has really known in the closest relationships in her life.
> 
> ...


This. So much this. When I finally went to therapy, after 15 years of unhappy marriage, IC asked me to describe my childhood. She then said 'so you were taught to do what you were told, never question it, make sure everyone else got what they wanted, and never expect more.' Yeah, pretty much. And overcoming that training is nearly impossible, even as armed as I am with training in psychology and knowing the truth. Your wife is in the same boat as regards sex. She will NEVER see it as something she can 'have' because her FOO taught her it's bad and only to be used in courtship. Anything outside of that is literally painful for her. It's like telling you you have to go shoot someone once a week.

But the bottom line here is your tone, and your apparent belief system, that is so ready to just INSTANTLY assign all kinds of blame on her, with VENOM. You don't think she sees that? 

The author Hendrix says that we marry a carbon copy of our parent who most hurt us - in the hopes that the 'new' parent/partner will 'get it right' and heal our wounds. She married you, hoping you'd prove her wrong and be better for her than her mom. Instead, you dragged her to two years of therapy and who knows what else over the years.

I've yet to see you do any real introspection into what YOU could be doing wrong in the marriage.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Tumera - it sounds as though we had similar upbringing. Old maid by 30. Greatest mission to be a wife and mother. Pretty much the only purpose. 

But if you don't stay clean and pure no man is going to want you. Cover your shoulders, your stomach, your thighs so no man gets the wrong message about you. Don't dwell on sexual feelings, you must fight against those. Don't watch sexual movies, dont read sexual books. Don't let a man go too far with you. Fight him off. You're responsible for drawing the line. No masturbating. All these things make you a less attractive prospect for a man who's looking for a wife. Be a wedding night virgin, your husband should be the only man who's ever touched you. 

So then what? Is this magically healed upon taking a wedding vow? What if you get to this magical event only to find out you just don't like sex. Or that you can never be sexual and spiritual in the same moment? And on those times you feel sexual you feel guilty because you let go of your spirituality to do it? I think many women end up with these issues after being raised to be the perfect frigid virgin. If you aren't no man will want you after all! No good man anyway. 

How are you supposed to even know if sex is something you like if you spend your young adulthood shutting every sexual feeling in yourself down? 

I always liked sex - I thought - but I didn't grow up sexually until I was 45. I thought being a sexual woman meant playing porn star, being an enthusiastic lover who never said no. I came to this board 3 years ago because my DH had never given me oral sex in 17 years. Never given me an orgasm. Never had even touched me there. I'd never said a word to him about it in 17 years. I just kept going to bed and doing the same things over again and only caring if he was happy. Because I wasn't that woman, that sexually frigid woman I'd been raised to be. Right? Just look at me never saying no. 

But it's more than that, isn't it. I had to learn to actually be sexually intimate at age 45. It took me over 2 years to grasp any kind of sexual maturity. I had to tell my DH to never lay an effing hand on me again unless he was ready to care about my needs too. I had to be vulnerable, I had to be willing to leave my marriage. I had to learn how to have an orgasm with a partner. It was harder than I would have thought. I guess we reach these points where we have to decide how much what we are lacking weighs.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

That should say old maid by 23, not by 30.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

kag123 said:


> Ok so you need some mind blowing first date type of sex from her - in your mind this is your only chance at perhaps experiencing good sex again with your injury.
> 
> My questions would be: Are you sure that this would work? Sex is "mental" right, so I assume you've thought about what turns you on the most and figured that if you could create that perfect storm, it might produce results. On paper it sounds like a good idea. But I see problems with that:
> 
> ...


I am going to get graphic here, so skip the following paragraph if you don't want details... 

I have had all the same concerns about durability. In my mind, I thought, if she was truly eager to have sex and open to variety, we might be able to sustain it, or find a compromise that works. Six months after I was injured she surprised me, out of the blue, with a blow job to completion. She had never been thrilled with blow jobs, so they were exceedingly rare, and I was OK with that because PIV orgasms were awesome. And prior to that BJ, my semen had never come close to her mouth. I warned her that I was close, expecting her to switch to her hands, but that's when she surprised me and went all the way. Sucking the whole time. It was amazing. I thought my head was going to explode. And that was AFTER I'd been injured. But why did that work? Maybe it didn't work. Was that an orgasm? I think it was... Would it work again? Was it the blow job? Was it the surprise of something new? Was it the sucking? Was it the idea of such selfless giving? Was it because I felt desired? Then about an hour later, she came by and said wow, don't expect me to do THAT often... I have no clue why it worked and masturbation comes nowhere close either. But, I don't think I can physically recreate, on my own, what she did with that blow job or the feelings we had for each other at that moment. I feel like I have more questions than answers from that. BJ's since then have been hit or miss, and lately all miss . Is is not working because it has lost the novelty? I have no clue. But, I am left with the fact that orgasms are possible under ideal circumstances, and my wife is not very excited about trying much of anything. 



kag123 said:


> Then - I am not even sure you COULD create that ideal atmosphere in your current state of your relationship. You are asking your wife - someone who has zero sex drive on a good day - who is also knee deep in her own sexual baggage and the anger swirling within your marriage - to perform a terrific play for you, but to also make sure it doesn't appear that she's simply performing for your benefit. It must be 100% authentic and genuine for it to work, right?


Right. I have to believe it! 



kag123 said:


> The thing is...you can ask her to perform the play, but you can't make her WANT the experience the same way you do.


Yeah. 




kag123 said:


> Have you explored any therapy on your own to improve the mental experience? There are some types of meditation and trance that you can be taught by a therapist that can be used for those with these issues. That may be a better long term solution for you?


No I have not. This is a great idea. 



kag123 said:


> A lot of the posters here have picked up on your tone. I don't think anyone would discount how hard you are working with the therapy that you are going through. BUT, being honest with you, I was immediately bristled by you the moment I began reading your posts. Your writing came across as angry, blaming, antagonistic. And this thread started with several pages of blow up about a very small issue on the grand scheme of things in your marriage. If you latch onto things that vehemently over a comparatively "minor" issue (compared to the other things going on in your marriage currently), it leaves us to wonder...how do you react to the big issues?


No question. I am a bit of a perfectionist and it's a character flaw, to be sure. But, I really appreciate the folks here giving me some perspective. 



kag123 said:


> If that is any indication of how you feel about your wife, _even if you don't voice it out loud to her _, then how do you expect to heal your marriage with that amount of sourness for her. It appears that you are trying to force yourself to love someone that you loathe. And believe me, she KNOWS how you feel about her. That is why I said - do you not see the irony between how she grew up and the marriage she is in? True, your intentions may be 180 degrees different from her mother's. But the fact that you both judge her so harshly and place blame so heavily onto her - she has learned it's normal to be framed as the bad guy, to be guilty before proven innocent, and to lay quietly accepting punishment rather than stand up and fight against it. It's all that she has really known in the closest relationships in her life.


To be clear, up until 2 years ago, she could do no wrong in my eyes. I loved her more than anything. Really. I took her at her word when she said she was too tired, had a headache, had her favorite show on tv, was in the middle of a good book, when she rejected me. I believed her. I mean, who would not want sex, right? Then in therapy, I came to believe that she does. She basically admitted to avoiding sex the whole time. So now I look back on our marriage and am furious that she took advantage of my trust. I felt like a complete fool, why didn't I see it before. That shattered trust between us. We really have no trust anymore. I don't trust a word that comes out of her mouth if it relates to sex. And yes, she knows how I feel. It is in the open. She says she has changed, but I am not letter her in. My point to all that is... that you're right. I do see her as the bad guy. I've said this a few times, that our therapist described it as a bait-and-switch. That has been ringing in my head ever since. But the anger from that is magnified exponentially by the fact that it's nearly impossible to have orgasms. I am furious about it. 



kag123 said:


> If you've been framed for ill intentions for your entire life, it is easy to begin feeling like wow - I must really BE this terrible person everyone thinks I am! It can cause you to distrust your reality, if what you feel about yourself is so different from what everyone on the outside sees. You start to believe others before you believe your own inner voice. It makes you scared to make your own decisions, to have your own wants and desires, because you have learned from a young age that anything you come up with on your own is "wrong" or "evil". So you turn into a shell of a person just waiting for your next orders from the one in charge and hoping not to rock the boat too much. Depression seems a normal side effect of such an atmosphere.


Makes sense. 



kag123 said:


> The fact that you truly think your wife may have purposefully put on an act to reel you in, and has kept up that act over 220 hours of therapy, is truly jaw dropping. Either she is an evil genius plotting against you for the last 15+ years, or she is a broken human being who is just trying to claw her way through her life and marriage the only way she knew how. Which do you think is more likely? Again, the tone is of accusation and suspicion.


About 10 months ago, our therapist thought she might be an act. She spent and hour, focused on her, insisting that she needs to be honest about whether she TRULY does enjoy sex as she says and whether she truly does love me. She said she did, but words are not convincing. 



kag123 said:


> If you were unfairly framed for something you didn't do - assigned false intentions that you didn't really have - and painted to be at fault for most of your life - how would you react? Perhaps by learning that those closest to you are scary, angry and not safe to be vulnerable with. Perhaps by always choosing the path of least resistance in life and finding ways to seek your happiness away from the people closest to you. ("She does what she wants, buys what she wants, work when she wants...") If you're already in "trouble" before you've even done anything wrong, what incentive do you have to do what your husband is telling you to do? He's going to be mad at you no matter what...might as well do something for yourself once in awhile.


Hmm. Up until recently, I ALWAYS trusted her intentions 100%. And she certainly feels it is not her fault that she rejected me for over a decade because it was her childhood programming and depression that made her do it. But, I find that reason difficult to accept. I have to think about this. There is a lot to unpack here.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Your therapist is a quack. NO good therapist assigns blame like that, so that one of the two becomes the bad guy. Why? Because the one hurting picks those words up like a torch and runs with it - all blame off MY head now! It's all her! She's the demon!

Huh. Guess what? It worked. That's all you've been doing. I asked you what YOU are doing wrong. You still haven't answered.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

MissScarlett said:


> Tumera - it sounds as though we had similar upbringing. Old maid by 30. Greatest mission to be a wife and mother.


 @MissScarlett, I just want to hit the like button a hundred times for that post. So many things you mentioned match my wife. But, I always wanted to share the pleasure of love making. But I could see the internal struggle. Should she free herself to experience this pleasure or is this a sinful act that only the bad, dirty girls do. She struggles with that still.


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

wantshelp said:


> And, @turnera suggested that prior to marriage was all an act to get a man.


You really are going out of your way to misinterpret what she actually said, aren't you? Even though she has written paragraphs to the contrary, trying to get you to understand.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> Your therapist is a quack. NO good therapist assigns blame like that, so that one of the two becomes the bad guy. Why? Because the one hurting picks those words up like a torch and runs with it - all blame off MY head now! It's all her! She's the demon!


When did she assign blame? Trust me she is not a quack. It's more likely that I misstated something or it was colored by my bias. 



turnera said:


> Huh. Guess what? It worked. That's all you've been doing. I asked you what YOU are doing wrong. You still haven't answered.


What am I doing wrong? 
I failed to recognize what her needs truly were, spiritually. 
I failed to recognize how personally hurtful she interpreted any criticism. 
I failed to be her friend.
I failed to help her discover who she is. 
I failed to win her trust. And not the superficial taking out the trash trust. The trust for her to open up to me and tell me who she is. 

Wow. Thanks for making me think about that @turnera.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

I need to reread everything in this thread. There is a lot of good insight here and I can't keep up...


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

wantshelp said:


> It seems like an excuse to blame your childhood... for actions as an adult. I need to reread all of it.


FOO and childhood experiences go a long way toward forming your beliefs as an adult. Not an excuse; a fact.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

A little light reading for you:

 http://www.thebestbrainpossible.com/my-reality-is-not-your-reality-2/ 

As soon as I read you state this: "I mean, who doesn't like sex, right?" I shook my head. 

On the surface, your statement seems logical. But, it isn't true. Not everyone likes sex. Not everyone finds sex easy or even pleasurable. And that's just talking about sex. Replace the word sex with a variety of different things in your every day life that YOU like. How do you know that what the other person experiences is the same as what you experience? 

If there is one thing I've learned in life so far - one thing - it's that there is SO MUCH I don't know. The more that I experience, the more that I realize that to be true. 

You should not assign your feelings or what you believe to be self-evident truths to another person. You should not assume that you know what they are going to think/feel/say, for you cannot know that. This is _especially _ true when your assumptions tend to be negative, assigning malice to someone. 

This is a case of confirmation bias - you seem to be looking only for what you want to see. It takes practice to break yourself from that habit. Not just in your marriage but in the rest of your life, too. 

What helps:

- Less talking and focusing on what you want out of an interaction, more listening. 

Truly listening is not just hearing, it is absorbing and _seeking to fully understand _. Step out of your own agenda for that time and just seek to understand the other person, without thinking about how you want to respond to them. Do you think you do enough of this with your wife? 

I think you hear what your wife says in therapy but that you don't really seek to understand it.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4/videos/10153846681122330/

I'm just going to put this here as it came up on my feed today and seems appropriate for this thread. 

This four year has coldsores (lol, coleslaws as the kids in this say) - must be she was a terrible dirty person too.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

kag123 said:


> As soon as I read you state this: "I mean, who doesn't like sex, right?" I shook my head.
> 
> On the surface, your statement seems logical. But, it isn't true. Not everyone likes sex. Not everyone finds sex easy or even pleasurable.


Of course not everyone likes sex. I see plenty of that on these forums. But, when I say "sex", I think of the most mind-blowing pleasure imaginable. To me sex was defined by that feeling. Before my injury, it was incomprehensible that someone could resist wanting to experience that. That was definitely my projection. I know sex is not that great for others, including myself now. I would see her experience pleasure during sex, so I assumed it was the same kind of pleasure. I assumed sex would be desirable because that is how I would respond. Also, in our therapy sessions, she insists that she enjoys sex and wants it. So, I am left really confused. I am trying to put these pieces together to understand her. I am really trying to understand her, but I am clearly failing. I get that. 

Of course, my first thought is, if this is all true, what does it mean? Ok, she says she likes sex, I see that she enjoys sex, those seem to agree. But she routinely rejects it. Is the effort of sex not worth the pleasure for her? Maybe she sees that sex is physically pleasurable, but because of her upbringing, she can't enjoy it or mentally punishes herself, for in her view, being used by a man. Or she is a liar, and doesn't like sex, but instead tolerates it from time to time to keep me from divorcing her. Or it's something else entirely. 



kag123 said:


> there is SO MUCH I don't know. The more that I experience, the more that I realize that to be true.


I completely recognize that I don't understand her. I know some things, but I can't put together a complete picture. 



kag123 said:


> You should not assign your feelings or what you believe to be self-evident truths to another person. You should not assume that you know what they are going to think/feel/say, for you cannot know that. This is _especially _ true when your assumptions tend to be negative, assigning malice to someone.


Yeah, like sex is as mind-blowing for others as it was for me. 



kag123 said:


> This is a case of confirmation bias - you seem to be looking only for what you want to see. It takes practice to break yourself from that habit. Not just in your marriage but in the rest of your life, too.





kag123 said:


> What helps:
> 
> - Less talking and focusing on what you want out of an interaction, more listening.
> 
> ...


It's not that I don't seek to understand it. I am desperate to understand. I just don't think I am capable of understanding her. I am a simple minded person. I thought we were being open and honest with each other. That was critical to me trusting and understanding her. Now, I feel like I have had a look under the covers and it is far too complex for me to comprehend. I hear what she is saying and I literally can't keep up with all of it. At the end of therapy, I have to boil it down to simple nuggets of understanding, but it doesn't work.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Starstarfish said:


> https://www.facebook.com/Channel4/videos/10153846681122330/
> 
> I'm just going to put this here as it came up on my feed today and seems appropriate for this thread.
> 
> This four year has coldsores (lol, coleslaws as the kids in this say) -


Very cute. 



Starstarfish said:


> must be she was a terrible dirty person too.


That's the stigma.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Hope Shimmers said:


> FOO and childhood experiences go a long way toward forming your beliefs as an adult. Not an excuse; a fact.


I agree that it is a fact, but it is still an excuse. If my kids learn from friends that stealing gets you what you want and learn from me and school to realize that stealing is not OK, but they do it anyway. Learnings from their friends is an excuse. They knew the consequences to stealing might be a fine/jail. You're telling me that they couldn't help it because they grew up learning how to steal? They can't be held responsible because what their friends taught them was not under their control? I believe that once you reach adulthood, maturity allows you to recognize the fallacy of stealing. 

Just because you are taught growing up, to misrepresent yourself to men to get them to marry you and you know it isn't right, but do it anyway, you bear the responsibility for the consequences of that action. 

So if while dating, you pretend to love sex and his other interests. He marries you because he thinks he knows you and you both share these interests. But he has only fallen in love with a facade. He hasn't even fallen in love with a real person. You don't think there are profound consequences to that? Eventually, it falls apart.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> Of course not everyone likes sex. I see plenty of that on these forums. But, when I say "sex", I think of the most mind-blowing pleasure imaginable. To me sex was defined by that feeling. Before my injury, it was incomprehensible that someone could resist wanting to experience that. That was definitely my projection. I know sex is not that great for others, including myself now. I would see her experience pleasure during sex, so I assumed it was the same kind of pleasure. I assumed sex would be desirable because that is how I would respond. Also, in our therapy sessions, she insists that she enjoys sex and wants it. So, I am left really confused. I am trying to put these pieces together to understand her. I am really trying to understand her, but I am clearly failing. I get that.


So you are aware, right, that men want sex so they feel loved, while women have to feel loved in order to want sex? Otherwise, it's just being a hooker, a vessel. No matter HOW hard you work to make her enjoy it.

If she doesn't feel loved, she won't want it with you. And 'feeling loved' is extremely complicated, psychology. More so for women. Have you read His Needs Her Needs yet? If you have, you'll understand that a woman feels loved when her top needs are met, but ONLY when she is not being Love Busted. The LBing comes from YOU, and is completely in your control.

Now, to stop the LBing, you have to more fully understand what makes her tick. Her FOO, her personal fears/hates/desires. And where you fit in all that. You have to understand HER so you can understand in what ways you are LBing her. So you can stop.

Once you remove the LBs, you'll likely see a HUGE difference in her attitude.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> I agree that it is a fact, but it is still an excuse. If my kids learn from friends that stealing gets you what you want and learn from me and school to realize that stealing is not OK, but they do it anyway. Learnings from their friends is an excuse. They knew the consequences to stealing might be a fine/jail. You're telling me that they couldn't help it because they grew up learning how to steal? They can't be held responsible because what their friends taught them was not under their control? I believe that once you reach adulthood, maturity allows you to recognize the fallacy of stealing.
> 
> Just because you are taught growing up, to misrepresent yourself to men to get them to marry you and you know it isn't right, but do it anyway, you bear the responsibility for the consequences of that action.
> 
> So if while dating, you pretend to love sex and his other interests. He marries you because he thinks he knows you and you both share these interests. But he has only fallen in love with a facade. He hasn't even fallen in love with a real person. You don't think there are profound consequences to that? Eventually, it falls apart.


You're right. You will never understand how women think. Nor young people. All you care about is sex and tons of it. So she is either going to be the vessel that gets you that, or you're going to dump her and blame it all on her so everyone knows how horrid she is. 

Great reason on her part to meet your needs.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

wantshelp said:


> True.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> ...


so you are going to wait for her to act first, while resenting her more and more when she doesn't act the way you want?

i was in a sexless marriage. in fact, my marriage was absolutely terrible. there really wasnt anything positive about it. we went to a marriage retreat once, early on. the guy hosting it asked all the couples to think of something that they love about their spouse and share it with the group. guess what... my wife and i could barely think of anything. its pretty bad when you cant come up with ONE thing that you really love about your spouse. that was where we were. 

and boy, there was a lot of resentment on both sides. 

what i described to you was pretty much what i did. literally tit for tat strategy. "i will cooperate if you will cooperate."

that got us both at least trying to meet each others needs, if for no other reason than getting some of our own needs met in return. and guess what? it worked. leaving the resentment aside and just doing it, consistently, was enough to make that happen. 

that doesn't mean it was an overnight transformation. of course not. my wife still struggled with telling me what she was thinking. she had a habit of bottling up her insecurities and ignoring the things that bothered her until she blew her top, seemingly out of the blue. i just kept looking for effective strategies, things that i could do, that would provide her with the motivation to cooperate with me. 

its a pretty simple strategy. if your spouse does something that hurts you somehow, tell them that you are going to do something that will hurt them somehow in response. try to keep it at the level of the offense. for instance, if she rejects you, reject her in some way. and state clearly that you are rejecting her for rejecting you. same goes for the opposite. if she does something that makes you feel loved, do something that makes her feel just as loved. and let her know that you appreciate the good things she did for you and that you are doing good things for her because you want to reciprocate her loving actions. 

but there is a catch. there are two things that you will need in order for this strategy to be effective: one, you will have to know her. that means you have to get her to open herself up to you. two, you will need her to trust you enough to let you know her. that means that if you do ANYTHING to use your knowledge of her to hurt her, then you are setting the stage for your own failure. for instance, if you find out that she has a lot of hangups about sex because of how her mother treats her, and you use that knowledge to shame her for not "growing up", then you have taught her that she cannot trust you with the knowledge of her demons, fears, and insecurities. if instead, you tell her that you understand that growth is going to be scary, but you want her to experience personal growth so that she no longer carries the shame her mother unjustly bestowed upon her, and continuously SHOW her through your actions and words that you dont judge her for how she feels, then she is likely to at least be able to believe that your intentions are what you say they are. 

you will not be able to do any of this unless you cast aside your resentment and decide that the old way of doing things didnt work, so you are simply deciding to do things different. do NOT focus on what she is doing, focus instead on what you are going to do in response to her. that kind of thinking gets you to stop looking at her with frustration and instead gets you thinking about what you can actually do about it, which will go a long way to causing you to feel empowered and less frustrated. which in turn will cause your resentment to fade. 

cuz think about it; if you knew of one thing that you could do that would cause your wife to do the things you need her to do in order to feel loved by her, would you not do it? what if it were something as crazy as driving 200 miles away every weekend to pick flowers in a specific garden? if you got six absolutely amazing days a week for it, wouldn't you do it? most of us would do just about anything to get that. 

have you ever tried the tit-for-tat strategy? look it up, it works for a reason. its an incredibly honest strategy and can also compassionate since you can always extend another olive branch and see what happens.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> You're right. You will never understand how women think. Nor young people. All you care about is sex and tons of it.


I do care a LOT about sex and I think it's normal for most men, although not all. Also, I have highly valued the physical part of our relationship from day one and that was clearly communicated to my wife. I never hid that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Not the point. As we've told you repeatedly, you have to address the NONphysical part of your relationship, if you have any hope of getting the physical part. What have you done to address that?


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> i was in a sexless marriage. in fact, my marriage was absolutely terrible. there really wasnt anything positive about it. ... and boy, there was a lot of resentment on both sides.


Wow. Thanks. You put a lot of thought into that post. I really appreciate you sharing with me. It certainly helps to see others have overcome similar situations. 



As'laDain said:


> so you are going to wait for her to act first, while resenting her more and more when she doesn't act the way you want?


I think you're right that the resentment is an obstacle. A big one. But I have to be honest. I don't know if or how I can let it go. Trust is hard to earn with me. So that's a problem too. 

My wife tells me she has changed and wants another opportunity to patch things up. So, yes, I was waiting for her to act. She and the therapist said that she would be more assertive with her desire and interest. Meanwhile, I have no romantic feelings for her at all right now. Perhaps you were in a similar place when you did that couples retreat. If she makes a romantic move, I won't reject her. But, my mind is a million miles away from initiating anything. And, I don't think I am resenting her more. The amount of resentment is constant. I appreciate any effort she makes. I appreciate the hugs and the kisses. It just feels like I have already checked out, but I can't bring myself to leave. It's like both of us are trying to sabotage our marriage. She becomes obese and won't initiate. And I have no sex drive for her, probably because of our history and her physical changes.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you read His Needs Her Needs?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

wantshelp said:


> Wow. Thanks. You put a lot of thought into that post. I really appreciate you sharing with me. It certainly helps to see others have overcome similar situations.
> 
> I think you're right that the resentment is an obstacle. A big one. But I have to be honest. I don't know if or how I can let it go. Trust is hard to earn with me. So that's a problem too.
> 
> My wife tells me she has changed and wants another opportunity to patch things up. So, yes, I was waiting for her to act. She and the therapist said that she would be more assertive with her desire and interest. Meanwhile, I have no romantic feelings for her at all right now. Perhaps you were in a similar place when you did that couples retreat. If she makes a romantic move, I won't reject her. But, my mind is a million miles away from initiating anything. And, I don't think I am resenting her more. The amount of resentment is constant. I appreciate any effort she makes. I appreciate the hugs and the kisses. It just feels like I have already checked out, but I can't bring myself to leave. It's like both of us are trying to sabotage our marriage. She becomes obese and won't initiate. And I have no sex drive for her, probably because of our history and her physical changes.


is there anything that she could do that you would be able to accept and _really_ appreciate?


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> Not the point. As we've told you repeatedly, you have to address the NONphysical part of your relationship, if you have any hope of getting the physical part. What have you done to address that?


I think the counseling counts as addressing the psychological part. That and we sit down and dialog. But, it's not working. My therapist says I need to be authentic. I listen to her talk about her fears and her anxiety. I mirror and empathize. But then I say stuff like, I am no longer physically attracted to you and I can't get past my resentment -- because that is authentic to me. That seems to end the dialog right there. I don't think either one of us is able to listen to the other.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> is there anything that she could do that you would be able to accept and _really_ appreciate?


I really appreciate good hugs and recognition for my efforts for the family (taking kids to school, feeding kids, working, cleaning, fixing and improving the house). Maybe an "I Love You" would be nice.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> Have you read His Needs Her Needs?


Not yet. When the book arrived, she threw a fit that the subtle was "how to build an affair proof marriage". She said "what is this? Why would you need to read about building an affair proof marriage?" So I set it aside until our therapy session last week. That came up and our therapist asked her something like, "why would it be a problem to avoid him having an affair?" Our therapist also asserted that it's a good book for us to read. 

Ha, I guess I am full of excuses. I'll try to get to reading it again.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

wantshelp said:


> I really appreciate good hugs and recognition for my efforts for the family (taking kids to school, feeding kids, working, cleaning, fixing and improving the house). Maybe an "I Love You" would be nice.


that is a good starting point. so, her acknowledging that you do a lot of good for the family and are a good husband would help soften your heart. that is not much to ask. 

do you know of anything that you could do for her in return that would make her feel appreciated?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> I think the counseling counts as addressing the psychological part. That and we sit down and dialog. But, it's not working. My therapist says I need to be authentic. I listen to her talk about her fears and her anxiety. I mirror and empathize. But then I say stuff like, I am no longer physically attracted to you and I can't get past my resentment -- because that is authentic to me. That seems to end the dialog right there. I don't think either one of us is able to listen to the other.


How would you react if she said "I'm no longer attracted to you because you treat me like property and then expect me to enjoy sex with you"?


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

I would also explore the idea of just maybe the friendship has surpassed the love affair.

I've had 2 glasses of wine and do not have the desire to explain but I'm sure someone can chime in 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

wantshelp said:


> I think the counseling counts as addressing the psychological part. That and we sit down and dialog. But, it's not working. My therapist says I need to be authentic. I listen to her talk about her fears and her anxiety. I mirror and empathize. But then I say stuff like, I am no longer physically attracted to you and I can't get past my resentment -- because that is authentic to me. That seems to end the dialog right there. I don't think either one of us is able to listen to the other.


So, your therapist says you are not authentic. That's what a lot of the posters here have been saying too, in various ways. 

Dropping bombs - such as "I am no longer physically attracted to you and I can't get past my resentment" - do nothing productive. They are final statements and they antagonize in an already tense situation. It leaves the other person with nothing else to do/say in response. It is a door slammed in the face. It is a brick wall that you put up that she cannot penetrate. 

You may be thinking to yourself, well they asked me to be honest?

Authentic is - I am resentful because: xyz. I feel frustrated because: xyz. I'm afraid that we aren't going to be able to make this work. I'm finding it hard to feel physical attraction to you when: (I've been rejected by you too many times; I feel like you aren't interested in me; etc.) 

If you want to fix your marriage, there HAS to be a give and take exchange to this. Not her spilling her guts to a therapist while you sit back and judge, and when cornered throw up a wall (which is what your statement was). Have you seen the therapist alone? If so, how did that go? 

We on this thread see your go-to move is defensiveness and blaming. That is usually a habit formed to deflect the attention away from real introspection. I'm sure your therapist and wife have also seen it. I'm not saying your wife is perfect either, but the only thing you can do is clean up your side of the street.


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## krba201076 (Dec 6, 2016)

Hello OP,

I feel like people are being a bit hard on the OP. I suspect that they are coming down so hard on him because he was upset about the fact that his wife could give him cold sores/herpes. A lot of people don't want to accept the fact that cold sores are genetically almost identical to HSV2 and behaves like its twin. And if you act like mouth herpes is anything more serious than a pimple, then the fangs come out and people get defensive and mean. 

I really wouldn't want to be in an intimate relationship with someone who gets cold sore outbreaks. I wouldn't want to be sharing pillows, kissing or getting oral sex from someone who could be shedding herpes virus asymptomatically at any time. I don't want to have to worry about outbreaks or being careful or inspecting the lips on the sneak tip before I feel safe kissing him. I know of people who have gotten genital herpes from someone who was asymptomatically shedding cold sores at the time of their oral sex encounter. Cold sores are linked to an increased risk of Alzheimer's Disease (a fate worse than death IMHO). They can also caused blindness if you get that goop that drains out of them anywhere near your eyes. They can also cause meningitis, Bells Palsy and encephalitis. Everyone's body chemistry is different and you cannot tell at a glance who will get it badly or who will get it mildly. For some people, cold sores might just manifest as a dot on the lip once or twice a year. And some people could be breaking out monthly with numerous lesions. Just because it is no big deal to one person doesn't mean it cannot become a big deal for someone else. And I don't want recurring and contagious sores on my lips or genitals. So, if avoiding cold sores/herpes makes me a bad person, then so be it. I have been blood tested as negative to both types of herpes simplex and I'd prefer to stay that way.

I don't blame OP's wife for having herpes. If I remember right, she was a three year old babe when she got it....which means that she likely got it from a family member. This is why I don't like the idea of grown relatives kissing kids and babies on the lips--especially when they have a sore. A lot of people get herpes like this and are dealing with the fallout in adulthood--like OP's wife. And if your child gets lip herpes in spite of you trying to be careful, then be honest with them about what they have--especially when you talk about the birds and the bees. I know some people who think it is just "genetic" and that "everyone in my family gets them". No, that stuff is contagious and the reason you all have them is because some inconsiderate/uneducated mother-in-law is kissing, sharing drinks with kids, spit washing their faces etc., with sores on her mouth like it's no big deal. People need to educate their kids and society in general just needs to stop calling lip herpes cold sores and wake up and smell the coffee. Fluid-filled and crusty sores on the mouth or genitals is gross and those who don't want to catch it are not "mentally ill"--they are sensible.

As for the OP's situation, the best solution might be to break up and move on to someone who is more compatible sexually. Even if she did not have herpes, she doesn't like giving oral, but you like getting it. I'm mostly asexual so I could not care less either way. But, for a sexual person to do without something he really likes until one of you dies doesn't sound like a good way to live. Resentment will build and resentment and contempt are cancerous to any relationship. But, this thread likely wouldn't even exist if society would stop trivializing cold sores and tell Aunt Mildred to keep her crusty lips off of other people's kids! The reason HSV rates are so high is that people are so nonchalant about cold sores....until one of their kids gets it in the eye and goes blind from it of course. Then they are going to be crying about it on social media.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

krba201076 said:


> Hello OP,
> 
> I feel like people are being a bit hard on the OP. I suspect that they are coming down so hard on him because he was upset about the fact that his wife could give him cold sores/herpes. A lot of people don't want to accept the fact that cold sores are genetically almost identical to HSV2 and behaves like its twin. And if you act like mouth herpes is anything more serious than a pimple, then the fangs come out and people get defensive and mean.
> 
> ...



everyone is so hard on him because HSV1 is not the reason for his frustration and strife. it is a red herring. the REAL problem is that he feels neglected, undesired, and unloved by his wife. 
@wantshelp, i dont know how the hell you managed to keep having hope that things would get better for fifteen years straight. now, what you were doing wasnt working. 

try a different approach before you give up.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> How would you react if she said "I'm no longer attracted to you because you treat me like property and then expect me to enjoy sex with you"?


I would respect her perception and we would part ways. 

I knew she was concerned about being objectified our entire marriage, so I decided very early on to give her space and time and let her discover for herself that she can choose not to have sex tonight and I won't stop loving her. I tried to earn her trust. Sometimes, I would even get her flowers the next day. But, I think that backfired on me. It resulted in me progressively repressing my sexual desire more and more as she took advantage. It became routine for her to reject me. Then about 8 years ago, I thought surely she wants sex from time to time, right? So, I decided without telling her, that I would stop initiating. Routine hugs and kisses would still happen, but I would not start, suggest, or offer sex. I wanted to see if my almost daily suggestions of intimacy were just steamrolling her own expressions of desire. And I wanted to see what her level of desire was, independent of mine. It was hard, but at least I could masturbate, unlike today. A month and a half passed and she never initiated once. Not once. I was shocked. Not only that, in passing she said something like, "ya know, I don't think we've had sex for a whole month! I guess you don't need sex very much anymore... huh?" I could see it in her. She was visibly relieved. Like whew, glad we don't have to have sex much anymore... Like, I'd finally gotten bored/tired of sex, so we don't have to do that anymore. This, I felt was her true self. Later in therapy, at some point she was asked how many times she'd initiated sex in the last year and she said 2 or 3 times. But she also said there are other times that she wants sex and just never acts on those thoughts. That seemed genuine. But, throughout this entire time, I felt like I was suffocating. Starving for affection, but afraid being more assertive would come across as pushy or objectifying. I assumed that trying to be affectionate every day was effectively communicating that that is what I wanted. She just assumed I didn't want it all that badly since I gave up so easily. Which probably just reinforced her perception that I just wanted to scratch an itch and use her. But, I don't want to force her to be someone she is not. This is where our therapist said I needed to be more "authentic". It's not that I was not being truthful, it's that I was holding back my expression of affection because I felt it was overwhelming to her. So, I took that to mean that I need to communicate my negative feelings and trust her to be able to accept them. And unfortunately, it now includes my thoughts of lost attraction and lost love for her. If she really doesn't want to be intimate, that's fine, but I don't want to spend any more of my life like this. If there is something I can do differently, she needs to be honest and tell me. My assumption is that since she has not taken those opportunities, that she does not truly want the same physical relationship I wanted from day 1. I refuse to live a nearly celibate life much longer. For someone that can't orgasm through masturbation, it feels like torture.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Your post above provides more than enough evidence that your future happiness depends on divorcing her. At this point, your continued unhappiness is your fault and your choice, not hers.

Not saying you MUST divorce. I am in your exact situation and I choose to stay. But I have no illusions what I am doing. Stop lying to yourself and thinking there is something you can do to get her to want to be sexual with you. There isn't. You have gone above and beyond in giving her every chance in a supportive environment to connect to her sexuality and connect hers to yours. Never going to happen. So do you want a sex life badly enough to divorce, or not? I don't. Maybe you do. Decide. Then act on it.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

kag123 said:


> Authentic is - I am resentful because: xyz. I feel frustrated because: xyz. I'm afraid that we aren't going to be able to make this work. I'm finding it hard to feel physical attraction to you when: (I've been rejected by you too many times; I feel like you aren't interested in me; etc.)


Initially, I tried to be considerate of her feelings and try to be delicate. But as we progressed in therapy, I was told to talk more about the origins of these feelings. So, I have said all of that in therapy. What I've said is uncannily similar to what you suggest. I have said those things so many times that I've been asked not to say it anymore because we've been through that and saying it again just upsets my wife. So then I was asked to be "authentic", so I said things like "I am not attracted to you because of the rejections and your appearance (obesity)" and "I don't love you anymore because you have pushed me away for too many years". I knew they would be hurtful to her, but the therapist asked me to be authentic and so I was. 



kag123 said:


> Have you seen the therapist alone? If so, how did that go?


Yes. Without my wife present, I truly unloaded without worrying about wording. She says that I need to find another outlet for my energy because I was "self-soothing" through orgasm. I hear her saying that, and it may be true, but it is incomprehensible in my world that anything (a hobby or interest) could ever achieve the level of soothing and pleasure that I get out of a loving, affectionate, physical relationship (including orgasm). And to me, it is defining to life itself. In the end, though; when I am blunt in the solo session, it usually ends with her being very pessimistic about our marriage succeeding. She openly tells me that she is fighting to keep us together. I told her that I appreciate that, because at the end of the day, I want to know that I tried to work this out. But, I don't want to be held together with alternate interests so that I can learn to live with a "cold fish" wife (btw, that's my wife's description of herself). If she thinks I am going to get a hobby and forget about all this love and sex stuff, we are wasting our time. Perhaps you say I won't change. If someone is expecting me to change by giving up on physical love and affection, they are wasting their time. That is an area I will not compromise on.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Elizabeth001 said:


> I would also explore the idea of just maybe the friendship has surpassed the love affair.
> 
> I've had 2 glasses of wine and do not have the desire to explain but I'm sure someone can chime in


The friendship has been constant. And the love has fizzled.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

My point was that you have become more friends than lovers, that the whole dynamic has changed. I saw you say more than once that she's your best friend and I think that's what you fear of losing. If you stay, things will not change and the resentment will build and you will grow to hate her, so either way, you will lose the friendship. Just went through this myself. It will still take a long time for me to lose my hatred of someone who took and took but wouldn't (or couldn't) be my lover. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> that is a good starting point. so, her acknowledging that you do a lot of good for the family and are a good husband would help soften your heart. that is not much to ask.
> 
> do you know of anything that you could do for her in return that would make her feel appreciated?


Well, since she tells me she has no dreams, I am left to guess. I do listen to her talk about her workday in the evening. I console her and support her when wanted. I play or distract the kids when they seem to be getting on her nerves. But, overall she seems to like as simple a life as possible. So, I try to do extra around the house. I fix things and clean things. She appreciates that. I added amenities to our home, so life would be simpler. Last year, I renovated the master bath with heated floors, shower with body jets, fancy glass tiles, and a washlet toilet with heated seat. She loves it. Also, she has been hinting at a new car. If we were not in our current situation, I would get her exactly what she wants as a holiday surprise. But, I'm holding back on big stuff like that. She does not like cuddling. She usually appreciates hugs if she is in the right state of mind. She doesn't seem to appreciate the flowers much anymore. Chocolate sabotages her diet. I don't know if I answered that well.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

wantshelp said:


> Well, since she tells me she has no dreams, I am left to guess. I do listen to her talk about her workday in the evening. I console her and support her when wanted. I play or distract the kids when they seem to be getting on her nerves. But, overall she seems to like as simple a life as possible. So, I try to do extra around the house. I fix things and clean things. She appreciates that. I added amenities to our home, so life would be simpler. Last year, I renovated the master bath with heated floors, shower with body jets, fancy glass tiles, and a washlet toilet with heated seat. She loves it. Also, she has been hinting at a new car. If we were not in our current situation, I would get her exactly what she wants as a holiday surprise. But, I'm holding back on big stuff like that. She does not like cuddling. She usually appreciates hugs if she is in the right state of mind. She doesn't seem to appreciate the flowers much anymore. Chocolate sabotages her diet. *I don't know if I answered that well.*


you didn't... 

you named all the ways that you try to show that you appreciate and value her. 

but, do you know what makes her _*feel* appreciated_?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> She says that I need to find another outlet for my energy because I was "self-soothing" through orgasm. I hear her saying that, and it may be true, but it is incomprehensible in my world that anything (a hobby or interest) could ever achieve the level of soothing and pleasure that I get out of a loving, affectionate, physical relationship (including orgasm).
> 
> But, I don't want to be held together with alternate interests so that I can learn to live with a "cold fish" wife


What IC is trying to tell you is that you are SET on what YOU believe you have to get out of this and unless you unhinge a little bit, you will never find happiness. She's telling you to figure out that you can have a fulfilling life in MANY ways, without hyperfocusing on not.getting.mindblowing.sex as your ONLY way to be happy. And the more YOU focus, the less attractive you become to your wife. 

If your wife were to see a guy who was confident and capable of finding joy in many things, SHE would be more interested in HIM. 

What DO you fill your life with? In what percentages? In what ways are you doing great things with your wife without making it clear you expect a BJ at the end? How many times - and in how many ways - are you trying to have that loving, affectionate, physical relationship with her WITHOUT expecting to have orgasm at the end? 

It's like me with my H. He knows to get me to do it, he has to 'give' me something in return, since I've made it clear I have NO interest in it for its own sake - and because he has Love Busted me to infinity and beyond so that any 'loving' reason I would have had to do it with him is long gone. So he usually gives me a massage. But now it's gotten to the point that I can't enjoy the massage because I know the ONLY reason he's doing it is so that he can have PIV at the end. And that makes me hate the whole situation (and probably him) even more.

I asked him decades ago if we could just cuddle on the couch without him having to take it to the next level every time. He said sure! And proceeded to grope me every.single.time. And if I then say no, I get attitude back. So that makes ME the bad guy.

So now I sit at the far end of the couch so he can't touch me. If he would just listen to what* I *want, we'd be sitting together every night. And yes, I'd be much more willing to do it. Because I finally felt heard and respected. 

I suspect that's what your wife is feeling. Maybe you should print out my post and read it to her in MC; see what she says.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> She does not like cuddling.


Never? Never has? Or did cuddling tend to lead to wandering hands?


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> do you know what makes her _*feel* appreciated_?


No I don't. I can't know that. But, I tell her she is a great mother. I would think that might make her feel appreciated, but I have no clue if it does. She always tries to downplay and minimize the things she does.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> No I don't. I can't know that. But, I tell her she is a great mother. I would think that might make her feel appreciated, but I have no clue if it does. She always tries to downplay and minimize the things she does.


All this time in therapy and you've never even gotten down into those weeds? That's what you _should _be talking about! Learning about what makes the other person tick. So you can be the person meeting their needs and not harming them.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> Never? Never has? Or did cuddling tend to lead to wandering hands?


She has always been this way to some extent. Her family even sympathized when it came up once. As I recall, she playfully punched her sister and told her to shut up. When we were dating, there was no sign of it though. We were very physical and she would initiate much of it. Once we were married, she became less physical, including cuddling. In therapy once, she admitted that she avoids physical affection because she fears I may see it as a green light for sex. Obviously though, the reasons were different for her family, so it's probably a mix.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> All this time in therapy and you've never even gotten down into those weeds? That's what you _should _be talking about! Learning about what makes the other person tick. So you can be the person meeting their needs and not harming them.


I'm not saying we don't talk about it. I just don't know if what she says she appreciates is REALLY what she appreciates.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

I think a lot of posters, with good intentions, are trying to explain to him what his wife wants or how she feels, or may be feeling. The thing is, if SHE can't talk to him honestly about how she feels or what she needs and wants, this isn't going to work. Communication is key in any good/lasting relationship. 

It sounds similar to my STBX. I think he told me whatever he thought I wanted to hear just to keep the status quo because he was happy with the way things were.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

wantshelp said:


> I would respect her perception and we would part ways.
> 
> I knew she was concerned about being objectified our entire marriage, so I decided very early on to give her space and time and let her discover for herself that she can choose not to have sex tonight and I won't stop loving her. I tried to earn her trust. Sometimes, I would even get her flowers the next day. But, I think that backfired on me. It resulted in me progressively repressing my sexual desire more and more as she took advantage. It became routine for her to reject me. Then about 8 years ago, I thought surely she wants sex from time to time, right? So, I decided without telling her, that I would stop initiating. Routine hugs and kisses would still happen, but I would not start, suggest, or offer sex. I wanted to see if my almost daily suggestions of intimacy were just steamrolling her own expressions of desire. And I wanted to see what her level of desire was, independent of mine. It was hard, but at least I could masturbate, unlike today. A month and a half passed and she never initiated once. Not once. I was shocked. Not only that, in passing she said something like, "ya know, I don't think we've had sex for a whole month! I guess you don't need sex very much anymore... huh?" I could see it in her. She was visibly relieved. Like whew, glad we don't have to have sex much anymore... Like, I'd finally gotten bored/tired of sex, so we don't have to do that anymore. This, I felt was her true self. Later in therapy, at some point she was asked how many times she'd initiated sex in the last year and she said 2 or 3 times. But she also said there are other times that she wants sex and just never acts on those thoughts. That seemed genuine. But, throughout this entire time, I felt like I was suffocating. Starving for affection, but afraid being more assertive would come across as pushy or objectifying. I assumed that trying to be affectionate every day was effectively communicating that that is what I wanted. She just assumed I didn't want it all that badly since I gave up so easily. Which probably just reinforced her perception that I just wanted to scratch an itch and use her. But, I don't want to force her to be someone she is not. This is where our therapist said I needed to be more "authentic". It's not that I was not being truthful, it's that I was holding back my expression of affection because I felt it was overwhelming to her. So, I took that to mean that I need to communicate my negative feelings and trust her to be able to accept them. And unfortunately, it now includes my thoughts of lost attraction and lost love for her. If she really doesn't want to be intimate, that's fine, but I don't want to spend any more of my life like this. If there is something I can do differently, she needs to be honest and tell me. My assumption is that since she has not taken those opportunities, that she does not truly want the same physical relationship I wanted from day 1. I refuse to live a nearly celibate life much longer. For someone that can't orgasm through masturbation, it feels like torture.


Ok, so THIS post right here is what you should have started this entire thread with....not the pages of HSV discussion. This is getting to the root of your actual problem.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

wantshelp said:


> . In therapy once, she admitted that she avoids physical affection because she fears I may see it as a green light for sex.


Which is exactly what I just told you. If YOU could learn to just enjoy touching for the sake of bonding, SHE would stop protecting herself from you. This is up to you, not her.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Elizabeth001 said:


> It sounds similar to my STBX. I think he told me whatever he thought I wanted to hear just to keep the status quo because he was happy with the way things were.


Thanks for your thoughts. This is a big fear of mine. I know for most of our marriage, talking about sex was not done. She would shut it down immediately by playfully saying shush or covering my mouth or covering her ears. I would try and complement her about how great she was last night and as soon as she realized what the topic was, she would try to block all communication. I can't remember once where she turned and said something adult, like "that's the tip of the iceberg..." or "there more where that came from." It's all in line with the fact that she wouldn't even say the word 'sex' or 'making love'. She was literally reacting the way you would expect a teenager would. This attitude, IMO, has been VERY damaging to our ability to communicate over the years, and although she can talk more about sex today, I still don't believe she is forthcoming about sex. So, my fear is that my wife is doing just what you said, that she is just saying what I want to hear to keep the status quo. It makes perfect sense. She doesn't want anything to change, so she would have motivation to do that.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

wantshelp said:


> Thanks for your thoughts. This is a big fear of mine. I know for most of our marriage, talking about sex was not done. She would shut it down immediately by playfully saying shush or covering my mouth or covering her ears. I would try and complement her about how great she was last night and as soon as she realized what the topic was, she would try to block all communication. I can't remember once where she turned and said something adult, like "that's the tip of the iceberg..." or "there more where that came from." It's all in line with the fact that she wouldn't even say the word 'sex' or 'making love'. She was literally reacting the way you would expect a teenager would. This attitude, IMO, has been VERY damaging to our ability to communicate over the years, and although she can talk more about sex today, I still don't believe she is forthcoming about sex. So, my fear is that my wife is doing just what you said, that she is just saying what I want to hear to keep the status quo. It makes perfect sense. She doesn't want anything to change, so she would have motivation to do that.




Exactly. Would also explain the long-term therapy. She is in compliance. IMHO, the therapy is a total waste of your time and money. 


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Exactly. Would also explain the long-term therapy. She is in compliance. IMHO, the therapy is a total waste of your time and money.


The therapy that HE dragged her to, to satisfy HIM. Which just proved to her that all he wanted was a vessel.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

wantshelp said:


> No I don't. I can't know that. But, I tell her she is a great mother. I would think that might make her feel appreciated, but I have no clue if it does. She always tries to downplay and minimize the things she does.


if you cannot figure it out, then there are ways of getting that information out of her. 
it starts with you doing exactly what you say you will do, and being completely honest with how you feel at any given moment. 

it requires the duality of you always keeping your word and always being honest with how you feel. that duality will at times require you to act in complete opposition to how you feel in the moment in order to keep your word. 

for instance, if you state that you will do something as a given response to an action of hers, then you must follow through with the action even if you dont really feel like doing it.

start with that for a while. when your wife sees that you have decided to stick to your word completely, she will likely start telling you what she wants from you, so long as you have been able to convince her that you will actually give her what she wants from you. then, once you find out what that is, keep your word and DO it for her. 

as time goes on, she would have to really love misery to not open up to you. basically, the strategy is to make yourself so open and predictable to her that you are practically giving her the tools to get whatever it is she could ever possibly desire out of you, but only if she is willing to do what you need from her in order for her to get it. 

make sense?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

This assumes that she wants something from him she isn't already getting, and that if she wants something she isn't getting, that she believes him capable of providing it. If she does not believe he is capable of providing what he needs, she may refrain from admitting what she wants. Because once she admits what he wants, and he proves incapable of providing it, she fears HE may want to leave her because he can't handle his feelings of inadequacy.

Also, @As'laDain, your technique assumes that he asks for nothing in return and is willing to provide for her needs "just because". She may not believe this to be true. She may believe that if she allows him to give her what she needs, he will ask for his needs to be met in return. If she is unwilling or unable to meet his needs (or what she believes his needs to be), she may refuse to admit that she has any unmet needs.

Early in our marriage, my wife worked hard to prevent me from meeting her needs. She hated when I did her a "favor". Why? She quite correctly understood that if I piled up a bunch of favors for her, I would eventually want her to reciprocate. And the only favors I wanted were sexual. And she didn't want to have sex with me. So she never let me get any "chits" from meeting her needs. Because she darn well was not going to let me turn the chits in. And she did not want to appear selfish. So she simply never let me earn any chits.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Holdingontoit said:


> This assumes that she wants something from him she isn't already getting, and that if she wants something she isn't getting, that she believes him capable of providing it. If she does not believe he is capable of providing what he needs, she may refrain from admitting what she wants. Because once she admits what he wants, and he proves incapable of providing it, she fears HE may want to leave her because he can't handle his feelings of inadequacy.
> 
> Also, @As'laDain, *your technique assumes that he asks for nothing in return and is willing to provide for her needs "just because"*. She may not believe this to be true. She may believe that if she allows him to give her what she needs, he will ask for his needs to be met in return. If she is unwilling or unable to meet his needs (or what she believes his needs to be), she may refuse to admit that she has any unmet needs.
> 
> Early in our marriage, my wife worked hard to prevent me from meeting her needs. She hated when I did her a "favor". Why? She quite correctly understood that if I piled up a bunch of favors for her, I would eventually want her to reciprocate. And the only favors I wanted were sexual. And she didn't want to have sex with me. So she never let me get any "chits" from meeting her needs. Because she darn well was not going to let me turn the chits in. And she did not want to appear selfish. So she simply never let me earn any chits.



that is not accurate. its actually just the opposite. my approach assumes that he would meet her needs on the condition that she will meet his. 

and yes, she is unlikely to believe it. and that is what keeping his word, choosing and stating his actions, and radical honesty is all about. if everything he does everything he says he will do, then she will be left with little evidence that he is lying with his words. so, at that point, it would be in her best interest to simply be honest with him.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> that is not accurate. its actually just the opposite. my approach assumes that he would meet her needs on the condition that she will meet his.


Sorry, my mistake. Thanks for clarifying.



> and yes, she is unlikely to believe it. and that is what keeping his word, choosing and stating his actions, and radical honesty is all about. if everything he does everything he says he will do, then she will be left with little evidence that he is lying with his words. so, at that point, it would be in her best interest to simply be honest with him.


Again, only if there are things she currently is not getting that she thinks he can provide, and if the things he asks for are sufficiently easy for her to provide that she views "giving to get" as a good deal. If she views the status quo as a pretty good deal for her, and if she views the price of meeting his needs as quite high, she might decide to stand pat rather than invest more to get more.

At that point it is not his integrity and willingness to stand behind his promises that matters to her. What matters is his willingness to destabilize the relationship, cut down his investment, and even divorce her if she proves unwilling to provide what he requests. Many spouses correctly determine that their deprived spouse will not leave over what they are being denied, and some of them decide it is in their best interest to give less to get less than to ask for more and burden themselves with the obligation / guilt of being asked to give something they have no intention of providing.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> if you cannot figure it out, then there are ways of getting that information out of her.
> it starts with you doing exactly what you say you will do, and being completely honest with how you feel at any given moment.


I like this advice. Validate my words with actions. The one example that comes to mind is that I have threatened divorce. So, if I say that, don't I have to act on it -- as in file for divorce to demonstrate my follow through.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Holdingontoit said:


> Sorry, my mistake. Thanks for clarifying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



well, yes. thats part of it. but, his words will be meaningless without a history of his actions backing them up. if she is cool with the status quo and she is not, he still needs that basis of consistency. then he can start destabilizing with just stating what he will do. i mean, if he always does what he says he will do, she will know that she had better, act or HE will.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

wantshelp said:


> I like this advice. Validate my words with actions. The one example that comes to mind is that I have threatened divorce. So, if I say that, don't I have to act on it -- as in file for divorce to demonstrate my follow through.


yep. if you dont act on it, then you are demonstrating that you do not mean what you say. this is why we tell people to never play brinkmanship unless they really are willing to walk.


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## BlueAura (Nov 18, 2015)

I wish she would call his bluff. What kind of monster enjoys playing mind games in marriage... ugh

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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

BlueAura said:


> I wish she would call his bluff. What kind of monster enjoys playing mind games in marriage... ugh


What makes you think I was bluffing? After saying I want a divorce, I met with a divorce lawyer and had a consultation. Then I talked to an arbitrator who said our initial appointment needs to be the 2 of us. I decided arbitration would be best for the both of us, if we could manage it. I chose a female arbitrator as an initial concession to her. It wasn't a real concession in my eyes though because this arbitrator was a judge and sounds very fair. So I sent her the arbitrator information and said I'd like us to make an appointment to talk about the terms of divorce. And I suggested she could find her own arbitrator if she likes. I don't think those are the actions of someone who is bluffing. She lost it when I proposed that and wanted another chance. That's where we are now. This is not a game to me. And are you calling me a monster?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

She wants another chance. Good. So what is it, exactly, that you want form her? More oral sex? If she wants another chance, she should be giving you BJs frequently. You want her tested for HSV? OK, she should go get tested. If she isn't doing those things, then she doesn't really want another chance, she just wants you to stay married to her and accept her as she is.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

She doesn't need to be tested. She had had cold sores, she has HSV1, that is how the thread started. He doesn't want more oral sex from her, because she has HSV1 and he doesn't want to be exposed.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> She wants another chance. Good. So what is it, exactly, that you want form her? More oral sex? If she wants another chance, she should be giving you BJs frequently. You want her tested for HSV? OK, she should go get tested. If she isn't doing those things, then she doesn't really want another chance, she just wants you to stay married to her and accept her as she is.


Wow, totally agree. Does she really want to keep trying or is she just trying to avoid divorce? I need to know that she desires me and wants me for who I am, not for all the money, stuff, and an easy life I provide. I need honesty and openness. And I want her to show me with her actions. I would like for her to try to be attractive. Like wear some makeup, lose some weight, wear sexy clothes, make sexy comments, or ask for sex -- basically, I want to see some amount of interest toward actually wanting me. These are all things she used to do before marriage. When she doesn't do these things, it contributes to my belief that she does not desire me. BJs are off limits until we are in love again because of the possible HSV. Although, I would try it with a condom on. Yes, she should get tested so that we can remove this cloud from over our head... her cold sores are self diagnosed, so it's possible that she is wrong, and it's not HSV. With respect to me wanting BJs, sure I love them. But, it's more about pleasuring each other because you love your partner and relish the joy and happiness it brings them. That needs to be a two way street going forward.


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## harmonylife (Aug 4, 2016)

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## RalphArjen (May 1, 2017)

I'm sorry for you to find this out... This is something serious.


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