# Deserve Better?



## MYM1430 (Nov 7, 2011)

In reading a number of recent threads, I have read some varriations of the following: 
If you are not happy in your relationship and your partner is not willing to consider your needs, you deserve better and should prepare to divorce and find someone who will. 

Usually this entitlement mentality is assumed to be the only logical conclusion to a relationship impasse and never challenged. 

Why do people feel they are entitled to happiness?


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## dormant (Apr 3, 2012)

If you're not going to be happy, what's the point?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

It's not that people feel entitled to happiness as much as they feel they're entitled to equality.If you're doing all you can to meet your partners needs fairness dictates you are entitled to receive the same treatment from them.

Typically it's best to find out why your partner is choosing to neglect your needs before you rush to divorce court. 

Personally I feel people are entitled to expect from their partner exactly what they're giving their partner to start with. Feeling entitled to anything more is selfish and doesn't work at all.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Happy?

Deserve better?

I don't really buy those points.

I can absolutely get behind removing oneself from negative, toxic, or harmful circumstances.

But nobody is going to frame a life-changing decision from the perspective of, "I deserve to be content."

When that in fact is the truth. Most of us are looking for contentment with our lives and circumstances.


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## Thunder7 (Jan 2, 2013)

MYM1430 said:


> Why do people feel they are entitled to happiness?


While agree with everything the lovely SB wrote above me I will take it a step farther. "Why do people feel they are entitled to happiness?" Wow. Bet you're a laugh riot at parties. The answer is simply, why not. This thing called life is something you only get ONCE. If you're not going to be happy and enjoy it, what is the point? Entitlement society, in reference to happiness? Really? I get that in other aspects of life. But, not when it comes to my happiness. Does that mean I'm happy 24-7? No, of course not. But overall, yeah, I'm pretty happy. And if I weren't I'd damn sure take some steps to get me there. And if your focus was divorce for the sake of happiness, yeah, I'd do that too. Why do I want to spend my time with someone who doesn't make me happy? That's crazy, in my opinion. Fortunately, I am happy in my marriage, so that's not an issue. But, I would much rather live my life seeking happiness than to live it as a martyr.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

ScarletBegonias said:


> It's not that people feel entitled to happiness as much as they feel they're entitled to equality.If you're doing all you can to meet your partners needs fairness dictates you are entitled to receive the same treatment from them.
> 
> Typically it's best to find out why your partner is choosing to neglect your needs before you rush to divorce court.
> 
> Personally I feel people are entitled to expect from their partner exactly what they're giving their partner to start with. Feeling entitled to anything more is selfish and doesn't work at all.


Exactly....

On the other side of one of those divorces where the spouse wasn't happy and I got left you have a lot of time to think. While married I would have described myself very happy even though I tolerated a lot of things that made me unhappy, I just kept my mouth shut figuring that all relationships are good and bad and that as long the marriage functioned it was good.

Now divorced I have a totally new perspective. Outside my kids needs what I want is coming as priority number one. I lived years taking a back seat to what another wanted...never again. 

Now in a relationship with a woman who's belief systems seems in line with mine and what we both want makes both of us happy, should that change then it's time to move on for both. 

Only get one shot at life if you're not going to live happy or least pursuit of happiness what's the point.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

It is a privilege of living in the West. We are not just struggling to survive here, like in other parts of the world. We want what we want, and we are at least going to try to get it.

If you are not happy with the one you are with, have made reasonable efforts to change, and are met with resistance or apathy, I think you are doing both of you a favor by moving on. Win/Win or No Deal.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Only get one shot at life if you're not going to live happy or least pursuit of happiness what's the point.


To live for others?


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

jld said:


> It is a privilege of living in the West. We are not just struggling to survive here, like in other parts of the world. We want what we want, and we are at least going to try to get it.


The irony is that people in impoverished nations are some of the happiest and most generous people you'll ever meet anywhere. They'll give you their last piece of food, insist you eat it, and smile happily the entire time.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

And what about the fact that being in negative environments is simply bad for your health, therefore bad for survival. 

Happiness, contentedness, whatever term you want to use... just a basic human need. People will always do their best not to suffer.


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## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

What about a situation in which one spouse decides on behalf of both parties that they can no longer make each other "happy"?

Should the spouse who is willing to stay and work feel guilt for reframing the situation? Is it wrong to look ahead and say, ok-so I can't have my marriage, what do I want to look for, then? What will make me -happy- in another long term relationship one day? 

I'm sorry, but I disagree. On the verge of ending 20 years with someone, I do think we both DESERVE to be happy. 

If the original post is referencing that some people give up too easily on marriages, that I agree with. But for the very pointed question of whether we deserve happiness, yes. I think we do.


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## MYM1430 (Nov 7, 2011)

Rather than chase happiness, we ought to pursue fulfillment. Fulfillment cannot be had at the expense of someone else, nor is it dependant on anyone else. It is individual in that a person can identify which values and desires they will and will not put into practice. If I uphold my values and my desires, I can be fulfilled. I can fulfill my promises my rights and my obligations. 

I admit that I am enamored with martyrs. While some martyrs may be seeking punishment, I believe many are finding fulfillment in suffering.


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## MYM1430 (Nov 7, 2011)

Though, to be fair, any true martyr must suffer in silence. Anything else is just a doormat seeking pity.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> It's not that people feel entitled to happiness as much as they feel they're entitled to equality.If you're doing all you can to meet your partners needs fairness dictates you are entitled to receive the same treatment from them.
> 
> Typically it's best to find out why your partner is choosing to neglect your needs before you rush to divorce court.
> 
> Personally I feel people are entitled to expect from their partner exactly what they're giving their partner to start with. Feeling entitled to anything more is selfish and doesn't work at all.


I generally agree with this. 

I often think to myself that I deserve better. Really what that is for me is giving up. Looking back on my relationship over the last 20+ years, I don't think I was ever what my wife really wanted. I don't think I've ever been able to give my wife what she needed and I don't think I will ever be able to. I don't think my wife would agree but that is my experience over the course of our relationship. She wouldn't agree but she also seems unable to articulate what it is she needs or wants and she would rather avoid the subject than invest herself.

I hate the thought of divorce. I have mostly accepted that for anything to change, it is what I need to do. I have decided that a couple of things need to line up (financially) before I pull the trigger but there are times that I get so fed up with the whole thing that I get this close to calling the lawyer. What I tell myself is "I deserve better" or at the very least I deserve to give myself a chance. That is me giving up. The thing is ... I am not a quitter and it always pulls me back. I don't want to quit ... I keep thinking that there is something I'm leaving on the table. Something that I just can't grasp that if I did, it would change everything. It is exactly as you said ... I'm not getting what I want because I'm obviously not giving her what she needs so at the end of the day, it is my fault. That is a miserable thought ... I wish I could feel entitled ... because what I struggle with the fear that my love life is over for the rest of my life and that is exactly what I deserve. I would be a lot happier if I really felt entitled to something better.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

JustSomeGuyWho,
Although you may never find "true love", divorce doesn't mean you'll never again have a love life. After my 20 plus years of servitude to my ex cheating wife, it was made clear to me that the only attribute that I had that was of interest to her was my willingness to work until I bled enough money to provide for her and what turned out to be two other guy's children.
Now that I no longer have the burden of providing for them,I have no problem in finding a love life. It may well be superficial, but it is far more than I had the previous twenty years.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

MYM1430 said:


> In reading a number of recent threads, I have read some varriations of the following:
> If you are not happy in your relationship and your partner is not willing to consider your needs, you deserve better and should prepare to divorce and find someone who will.
> 
> Usually this entitlement mentality is assumed to be the only logical conclusion to a relationship impasse and never challenged.
> ...


This is what makes me feel entilted to happiness.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Not entitled to happiness, but entitled to the pursuit of it, I agree with.

Some people will pursue it yet never achieve it. They were still entitled to pursue it, however.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

To pursue it, I think you first have to decide what it is ie what is going to make you happy. So it requires being honest and realistic with yourself and that alone is not in reach of many.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

hookares said:


> JustSomeGuyWho,
> Although you may never find "true love", divorce doesn't mean you'll never again have a love life. After my 20 plus years of servitude to my ex cheating wife, it was made clear to me that the only attribute that I had that was of interest to her was my willingness to work until I bled enough money to provide for her and what turned out to be two other guy's children.
> Now that I no longer have the burden of providing for them,I have no problem in finding a love life. It may well be superficial, but it is far more than I had the previous twenty years.


Oh, of course I know that logically. The topic was "Deserve Better" so I was describing my emotional struggle with that.

It's funny that at work and in most aspects of my life I feel like I am completely in control. I am a problem solver, it is what I do for a living and I'm good at it. Even when I can't see the solution right away, I am completely confident that with discipline and perseverance, I will find a solution. I am a "Master of the Universe". In my own relationship, I feel like a complete idiot. Just ... lost. I don't know what I'm doing. 

What I do know is that I'm tired of feeling inadequate as a husband and a man. I deserve better.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> What I do know is that I'm tired of feeling inadequate as a husband and a man. I deserve better.


That's step one to being the man you want to be: dissatisfaction with the man that you are today.

Who are you really, and what steps are you going to take to live that truth?


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

marduk said:


> That's step one to being the man you want to be: dissatisfaction with the man that you are today.
> 
> Who are you really, and what steps are you going to take to live that truth?


Become an ex-husband 

Seriously though, I am all about accepting who I am, both the good and the bad and self-improvement. I have been for a very long time. I even have a log of things I'm going to give up or start doing that covers a wide range of my life ... my marriage, my children, finances, health, work, etc. I pick one item a week and I've been generally successful in doing it. I started to recognize real trouble in our marriage 7 or 8 years ago. Intimacy has been all but gone for many years but communication is at the root of this struggle. There have been many positive improvements in most areas of our lives that would not have happened if I hadn't forced them to happen. The one area that hasn't improved is our relationship as an intimate married couple. I cannot seem to figure it out after all this time. She is the one person who brings out my feeling of inadequacy and every "step" I take to change that seems like a misstep. I am at a complete loss as to what I have to do to fix that. How much more of my life am I willing to give up to figure it out? Like I said ... I wish I could be more certain that I'm entitled to something better ... but most of the time I feel like I deserve exactly what I have because I haven't earned better. In every area of my life except this I would know exactly what I need to do to "earn better".


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MSP said:


> The irony is that people in impoverished nations are some of the happiest and most generous people you'll ever meet anywhere. They'll give you their last piece of food, insist you eat it, and smile happily the entire time.


Well, there is _some_ truth to that. We used to live in India, so we saw a lot of poor people. Lots of covert contracts.


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## Horsa (Jun 27, 2012)

"Happiness like other emotions, is not something we obtain, but rather something that we inhabit. 
When we are angry, we don't think are we angry? Are we doing the right thing? We inhabit our anger.
Just as a confidence man doesn't wonder if he is confidence, a happy man doesn't wonder if he is happy. He just is." by Mark Manson.

Maybe that's why so many people chase for happiness but only a few achieved happiness in their life...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

jld said:


> Well, there is _some_ truth to that. We used to live in India, so we saw a lot of poor people. Lots of covert contracts.


I recently went on a trip to the Dominican to build a house for a poor family. Amazing experience. We showed up to build a house and the entire neighborhood showed up to help. Our bus headed up the dirt road into this neighborhood and a bunch of kids ran along side it smiling, waving and shouting "Americanos". An older woman would walk through the house every day offering coffee to everybody ... best coffee I ever had. To put that in context, most of these people are unemployed and many of them can barely afford clean water. These people have nothing and live in conditions that would be intolerable for us. It wasn't trivial for her do to that. When we were done the man across the street invited us into his tiny home and served us dinner ... to all 30 or so of us. A different group had built a home for him the year before and not only did he feed us but he was right there beside us the entire time building the house AND he hired a couple of guards to make sure none of our equipment and supplies disappeared. 

Never seen such a group of happy, friendly and giving people.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

There are two distinct but overlapping types of fulfillment:
1. What you do with your life outside of your marriage:
- work
- friendships
- volunteering
- hobbies/skills

2. Marital fulfillment 
Giving
- helping your partner be their best
- supporting them emotionally through major adversity 
- caring for them when they are sick
- loving them in a manner that makes them feel desired and safe
Receiving 
Some parallel version of the giving 

Many people whose marital fulfillment has becomes wholly unsatisfactory, simply minimize their marital footprint to the nth degree. 

As for TAM, I think the advice is: Be a good partner, enforce your boundaries and let the chips fall where they may.

I also think it's ok to accept a marriage in which your partner gives less than you want. In those type situations your choices are simple: 
1. Match their effort by giving less, while being honest about why and accepting that they may view parity as unacceptable and leave you. 
2. Pressure, nag and threaten them in an attempt to get them to give you more. (See a lot of that here)
3. Decide that even at parity, the marriage is draining you of life force and divorce. 

I believe that (1) is a healthy first step if you feel exploited. But it has to be done thoughtfully and patiently. 

The world would be a less unhappy place if spouses chose to give less as opposed to being angry at their partner for not giving more. 

I also find many cliches are mis-used here:
- no one ELSE can make you fully happy with you
- money itself doesn't make you happy

Equally true
- Intense poverty (can't afford necessary medical care for yourself or family) can cause misery 
- Major incompatibility with a partner can cause you a lot of misery 





MYM1430 said:


> Rather than chase happiness, we ought to pursue fulfillment. Fulfillment cannot be had at the expense of someone else, nor is it dependant on anyone else. It is individual in that a person can identify which values and desires they will and will not put into practice. If I uphold my values and my desires, I can be fulfilled. I can fulfill my promises my rights and my obligations.
> 
> I admit that I am enamored with martyrs. While some martyrs may be seeking punishment, I believe many are finding fulfillment in suffering.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

JSGW, thank you for sharing pictures of your trip. I know they were blessed by your work, and your presence. 

I am not saying all of that is not genuine. But I noticed in India that there were expectations that we were not aware of. That part can be tricky.

I don't think we really need a lot of money to be happy. I am from a family of 11 kids. There were problems, but there was a lot of fun, too. Four girls in one room, 3 boys in another, and I slept in a crib in my parents room until I was 6. No space. The older kids had left the house earlier. No money, but some good times.

Now everybody is working, there are just two kids, everybody has their own computer (we all shared 1 TV ), and the threat of divorce seems to be constant. My parents never talked about divorce. 

Times have changed, for better and for worse.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

jld said:


> JSGW, thank you for sharing pictures of your trip. I know they were blessed by your work, and your presence.
> 
> I am not saying all of that is not genuine. But I noticed in India that there were expectations that we were not aware of. That part can be tricky.
> 
> ...


My parents had little money when I was growing up. I hardly knew the difference. 

As far as my trip goes, part of it is cultural. I have done the same type of trip to Mexico a number of times and while it is fulfilling work, the experience was hardly the same. We didn't exactly feel welcome and the people there, living in similar conditions, seemed miserable.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Just,
Does your W love YOU, or is she with you because she enjoys the marital benefits package you provide? 

Overall, how much effort does she put into pleasing you? 
FYI: Making dinner for the family doesn't count. She'd do that even without you. Making your favorite meal, does count. 

Do other women find you attractive? Not just your appearance, but your ability to converse, your sense of humor?

Are you playful with your wife? Do you tease her (verbally, physically)? 

How well can you read her? Moods, thoughts, desires? 

Did she lose her desire for you slowly or quickly? Did that coincide with any major life events: birth of your last child, etc? 

If your youngest child had left home yesterday, what would you say to your wife right now? 

Usually a loss of desire is caused by:
- Bad habits that are turn offs and/or
- Too much stability/routine - boredom
- A lack of chemistry (this is more than lust, this is that desire to be with someone because of how you feel around them)




JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Become an ex-husband
> 
> Seriously though, I am all about accepting who I am, both the good and the bad and self-improvement. I have been for a very long time. I even have a log of things I'm going to give up or start doing that covers a wide range of my life ... my marriage, my children, finances, health, work, etc. I pick one item a week and I've been generally successful in doing it. I started to recognize real trouble in our marriage 7 or 8 years ago. Intimacy has been all but gone for many years but communication is at the root of this struggle. There have been many positive improvements in most areas of our lives that would not have happened if I hadn't forced them to happen. The one area that hasn't improved is our relationship as an intimate married couple. I cannot seem to figure it out after all this time. She is the one person who brings out my feeling of inadequacy and every "step" I take to change that seems like a misstep. I am at a complete loss as to what I have to do to fix that. How much more of my life am I willing to give up to figure it out? Like I said ... I wish I could be more certain that I'm entitled to something better ... but most of the time I feel like I deserve exactly what I have because I haven't earned better. In every area of my life except this I would know exactly what I need to do to "earn better".


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Just,
> Does your W love YOU, or is she with you because she enjoys the marital benefits package you provide?
> 
> *I'm not sure the answer to that. I think she enjoys the family life and will fight to keep that together primarily for the sake of our children. She does value security but I don't think the money (what I provide) matters all that much to her. I think on some level she loves me.*
> ...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Become an ex-husband
> 
> Seriously though, I am all about accepting who I am, both the good and the bad and self-improvement. I have been for a very long time. I even have a log of things I'm going to give up or start doing that covers a wide range of my life ... my marriage, my children, finances, health, work, etc. I pick one item a week and I've been generally successful in doing it. I started to recognize real trouble in our marriage 7 or 8 years ago. Intimacy has been all but gone for many years but communication is at the root of this struggle. There have been many positive improvements in most areas of our lives that would not have happened if I hadn't forced them to happen. The one area that hasn't improved is our relationship as an intimate married couple. I cannot seem to figure it out after all this time. She is the one person who brings out my feeling of inadequacy and every "step" I take to change that seems like a misstep. I am at a complete loss as to what I have to do to fix that. How much more of my life am I willing to give up to figure it out? Like I said ... I wish I could be more certain that I'm entitled to something better ... but most of the time I feel like I deserve exactly what I have because I haven't earned better. In every area of my life except this I would know exactly what I need to do to "earn better".


What if you put her (or anyone else's) opinion of you aside and just live your truth?

You rock, you strive for excellence, and in many things (if what you say is true) you are head and shoulders above 99% of the population.

I suspect you don't need to "earn better." I suspect it's more likely that those in your life need to earn the right to be there... from you.

And after reading your last post, what does she bring to the relationship? Not much. She's gotta drop a lot of weight for one. That's just self-respect and respect for her marriage.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

marduk said:


> What if you put her (or anyone else's) opinion of you aside and just live your truth?
> 
> You rock, you strive for excellence, and in many things (if what you say is true) you are head and shoulders above 99% of the population.
> 
> ...


Ha! Well thanks. 

No worries about it being true. I am not going to get the help I need solving my problems if don't present things as accurately as possible. 

As far as my self-improvement, you should see the binder I have full of notes, lists, goals, etc. It is my self-improvement bible. I started it several years ago when two things happened 1) I joined a company with a culture focused on self-improvement, unlike anything I had ever seen ... with a motto of "work harder on yourself than you do on your job." and 2) our marriage seriously deteriorated. I already had developed something similar to it focused on fitness with weight lifting routines, meal plans, nutritional information and charts for measuring progress. Seemed like a natural progression. 

Something as serious as a dissolving marriage forces you to take a long hard look at yourself and what I saw, while not inherently bad, was someone nowhere near what I had envisioned or was capable of. I decided that was unacceptable and I was going to do something about it. It was not something I did to save my marriage or make myself more attractive in the eyes of my wife ... I did it for me because I was unhappy with the direction my life had taken, including my marriage. 

I knew that just like weightlifting goals, you aren't going to get there overnight. You can set a goal ... say, squat 400lbs by this date ... but you can only get there 5 lbs at a time ... small attainable goals. Just like New Year's resolutions, if you try to change too much at once, you are likely to fail. I know for me personally, every year I had a long list of resolutions and every year I failed to reach them. So, I decided that I would simply focus on one thing at a time ... pick something every week that I could incorporate in my life that in some way gets me part of the way to where you want to be. I don't mean things like ... paint the bedroom, I generally mean abandoning poor habits and adopting better ones. That works for me. It gives me time to adjust to that one thing and it doesn't dominate my life. I always start on Mondays ... I thought being consistent was important to my success. I'm not a patient guy ... if I see a problem I want to fix it ... but instead of trying to fix everything immediately or beat myself up because I don't, I know that I can tackle that one thing starting next Monday and it goes on the list. 

It sounds like a whole big deal ... but it isn't. You set an attainable goal, make a plan and then incorporate it into your life. Over time, those small deliberate changes add up to big changes.

I would not say that I rock ... ok, sometimes I do, lol ... what I do say is that I will be better tomorrow than the flawed individual I am today. I fail at it more than I would like but I think I'm on the right track.

I tried the same approach with my marriage ... completely focused on our relationship. I can't say it was a complete failure but the progress was so slow and difficult that I needed to take a break ... maintain my sanity.

As far as what my wife brings to the table? She has been my best friend for 24 years. She is the mother of my daughters and she is a good mother. We have a comfortable family life. We make each other laugh. She has a number of strengths that I don't and I admire her for them. She is a loyal, ethical, warm and compassionate person. If she was gone from my life, I would genuinely miss her. I CAN live without her and I can certainly live (and thrive) without the emotional battle that comes with a marriage without intimacy but no doubt I will feel that a piece of me is missing for a very long time.


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## P51Geo1980 (Sep 25, 2013)

MYM1430 said:


> In reading a number of recent threads, I have read some varriations of the following:
> If you are not happy in your relationship and your partner is not willing to consider your needs, you deserve better and should prepare to divorce and find someone who will.
> 
> Usually this entitlement mentality is assumed to be the only logical conclusion to a relationship impasse and never challenged.
> ...


And what about the entitlement mentality of the spouse who has their needs met and considered but doesn't meet or consider the needs of their spouse?

People deserve to be happy and if their spouse doesn't have the desire to make them happy, the best choice is to leave.


Life should be lived to the fullest with no regrets. I don't want to be on my deathbed and looking at my STBXW feeling that I wasted my life with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> As far as what my wife brings to the table? She has been my best friend for 24 years. She is the mother of my daughters and she is a good mother. We have a comfortable family life. We make each other laugh. She has a number of strengths that I don't and I admire her for them. She is a loyal, ethical, warm and compassionate person.


Is this enough?

It wouldn't be for me.

If it isn't enough, does she clearly understand that and know what it's going to take for it to be enough for you?

Is there a correlation with you getting back in shape and the deterioration of your marriage?


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

marduk said:


> Is this enough?
> 
> It wouldn't be for me.
> 
> ...


Is it enough? No, this is a crisis in my marriage and a dealbreaker. It is why I came to TAM in the first place. I don't think many people would sign up for marriage if they knew it would mean an end to their love life. Of course, bringing it back around to the question ... "deserve better."

We have had this discussion many times. With nothing else left to try, I told her it was a dealbreaker. There were 2 things I said we need to improve on ... 1) communication and 2) intimacy and without improvements in those two things we weren't going to make it. We have talked about divorce and that I was prepared to go through with it. Of course, that is an ultimatum and it didn't work. In fact, she avoids (and always has) any conversation about our issues, especially intimacy. She does not want to talk about sex and views it more as my problem than hers. Any conversation about it is initiated by me and no matter what I say, she hears that it is all about sex. It isn't, of course. I would rather not have sex and just take care of myself than have sex with someone who is just doing it out of obligation. She is very good at taking pieces of what I say, make incorrect assumptions and opinions or hearing only those things that seem to validate her assumptions or opinions and just go with that without talking about it. Communication.

No, people have asked me this before and I don't think it is related to getting into shape. I have been in good shape for most of my adult life and I was when we married. If that wasn't true then yes, the timing would be suspicious. There was a period in my late twenties, early thirties when I didn't take care of myself very well but for the most part, I've been fit. I can still fit into the same clothes I wore in college. Now, I wasn't in as good of shape as I have been over the last 10 years or so but I've never been terribly out of shape. I just don't see a correlation. 


Odd timing but late last night something came out of the blue. She tagged me in facebook. It was a quote from Joanne Woodward. "Sexiness wears thin and beauty fades, but to be married to a man who makes you laugh every day, ah, now that's a real treat!" She had shared it on her timeline and added ... "Ah, but to have sexy and laughter, now that's a blessing." ... with me tagged.

Now, she has NEVER posted anything referring to me on facebook ever. She is very private so she rarely posts anything personal on there anyway. She never says anything flattering directly to me although she does say flattering things about me to my daughters in my presence ... you know, things like "you get your smarts and good looks from your dad." It's been 10 months since we've had physical intimacy of any type and she says nothing about it. So ... it's kind of a big deal. Not sure how to read it and will have to mention it to her this weekend.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You are focusing on things that are not going to be fixed regardless of your actions. Or, in the rare case that they're fixed, the cost would be too high.

I, too, am staying in a relationship because of my kids. Both are in expensive colleges and having a blast. I had my good quarter century with my wife but a few years ago she went BPD on me and between that and a few other factors intimacy became a four letter word. Yet intimacy is the least of my concerns. 

I do not understand the part about being friends and making each other laugh. We did all that plenty in years 1-25. I have been told by many people that I am funny enough to make it to professional comedy, while my wife is as funny as an accountant. 

I married my wife 30 years ago for her independence, her can-do attitude, her smarts, and her looks. 30 years later she's kept the looks but everything else is debatable. She's a good employee, don't get me wrong, but feels the need to spend 2x the time needed to work anything out to ensure she's right. Her results are legendary (she's an IT consultant). I'm the exact opposite, barely work 35 hours a week since nobody understands what I do for a living (dude, what's cognitive psychology? do you do brain scans?). A few years ago she turned BPD on me and the rest is the usual sex-of-the-month club.

But hey, there's more. We're not friends. We don't finish each other's sentences. All she cares is work, all I care is cat pictures my older daughter sends me from her apartment cat, and gory Anatomy lab (morgue?) selfies my younger one sends. 

And even THAT is not the killer. So, what's the killer you ask?

The future.

Our views differ seriously for what we do in the next few years. So seriously different I don't think even sex twice a day for a decade would help us close the gap. They differ in terms of what to do, where to do it, and how much it would cost.

Why am I telling you all this?

Because you need to project your current situation a decade downfield, maybe two, and see what happens. In a decade your girls will go to college. You'll be alone then, and the current dynamic won't change a bit (why would it?). You will begin to recognize the inevitable, that this may not work out at the end. 

Do you see yourself preserving the status quo ten years down the road? This is not about now. This is about the future.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

JustSomeGuyWho have you said "For me to stay married to you means X and Y and Z. Are you going to provide that?"

Where:

X and Y and Z are clear things. Like sex 3 times a week. Or whatever. Clear, unambiguous things.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

marduk said:


> JustSomeGuyWho have you said "For me to stay married to you means X and Y and Z. Are you going to provide that?"
> 
> Where:
> 
> X and Y and Z are clear things. Like sex 3 times a week. Or whatever. Clear, unambiguous things.



Worry about P, Q, and R, things in the future that you can't even think you need quite yet, but the likelihood of getting depends on getting X, Y, and Z today.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Not entitled to happiness, but entitled to the pursuit of it, I agree with.
> 
> Some people will pursue it yet never achieve it. They were still entitled to pursue it, however.


Are they entitled to pursue it even at the expense of another?


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Horsa said:


> Maybe that's why so many people chase for happiness but only a few achieved happiness in their life...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe only a few people achieve it because MOST people have NO CLUE as to what would make them happy. 

Thus, the constant _pursuit_ of it...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I find the pursuit of happiness far more rewarding than actually "being happy". 

Maybe it's just me.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

After a few years of reading posts on this sight it occurs to be that what people really deserve is honest communication. It seems like such a simple idea but it is obviously a very complex issue in most relationships from what I gather.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I have found the act of communicating is really underrated... until it's backed up by action.

"Wife, this marriage is no longer working for me. I'm willing to live in a sexually unfulfilling marriage for the rest of my life and with someone that isn't willing to hear me out."

Then walk away. Give her a day or two to think about things. See if she brings it up, or tries to make a change. If so, good.

If not, a week or so later, make yourself scarce. Go do your own thing a lot. Have fun, enjoy your life. Act single (without the other women part). See if she approaches you to discuss things in the next month or two.

If not, it's showdown time.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Vega said:


> Are they entitled to pursue it even at the expense of another?


I've never been happy making someone else unhappy.

But I have sought happiness in a way that doesn't make others happy. For example, I have dumped girlfriends that don't make me happy. 

Me living unhappy for the rest of my life is going to make nobody else happy.


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## Cyclist (Aug 22, 2012)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Oh, of course I know that logically. The topic was "Deserve Better" so I was describing my emotional struggle with that.
> 
> It's funny that at work and in most aspects of my life I feel like I am completely in control. I am a problem solver, it is what I do for a living and I'm good at it. Even when I can't see the solution right away, I am completely confident that with discipline and perseverance, I will find a solution. I am a "Master of the Universe". In my own relationship, I feel like a complete idiot. Just ... lost. I don't know what I'm doing.
> 
> What I do know is that I'm tired of feeling inadequate as a husband and a man. I deserve better.


JSGW

That sounds like me. I am the same exact way. Even the job description....I do the same thing.

It seems I used to know. But now I seem to be lost.

Then I feel unhappy and search for what/how/why I am and what can make it better. Nothing seems to "flip my switch" anymore.

I just may be with the wrong partner who not only is not satisfying my needs buy I am not satisfying hers.....and that is nothing but a roller coaster.


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## Cyclist (Aug 22, 2012)

john117 said:


> I find the pursuit of happiness far more rewarding than actually "being happy".
> 
> Maybe it's just me.


This is a HUGE deal.

Your enjoying the trip. That is key. Once you get to the destination the "happiness" tends to fad. So you find a new trip.

Enjoying the ride while trying to find true happiness is the key to day to day happiness...IMHO


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Cyclist said:


> JSGW
> 
> That sounds like me. I am the same exact way. Even the job description....I do the same thing.
> 
> ...


Right. I expressed that I am tired of feeling inadequate as a man and a husband. Of course, that is the emotional response to this situation and I know that I am not inadequate for the right person, whoever that is. I just have to admit that I may not be with that person right now no matter how much effort I make to fix the problem.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Just found out that a person at work who is both a colleague and a friend is getting divorced. I know his wife and they are great people. I was very surprised. I had seen facebook posts from her talking about a new house ... just didn't realize that the move didn't include her husband. It is a mutually agreed upon amicable split and he is handling it well ... except that I've discovered he's spending a lot of time on dating sites at work, lol. They have been married 20 or so years but have no children. It highlighted for me that as hard a decision as it is to make, it is that much more complicated with children. Without children, I likely would have given up a long time ago.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

MYM1430 said:


> I admit that I am enamored with martyrs. While some martyrs may be seeking punishment, I believe many are finding fulfillment in suffering.


I think you are somewhat closer in ‘finding fulfillment in suffering’; I'm probably one of your 'martyr' types. I feel most alive in that struggle. But it’s not suffering to us, it’s normal. We’re usually not miserable people (there are moments, but never constant). Miserable ones run from it, seek normality, etc. Damaged people sort of adapt to the chaos and learned to thrive.

That other kindred spirit is a woman I know. A few things we’ve theorized. She’s also observed, that it’s in those lulls, that quiet, that contentment, where we feel anxious, on edge, and massively bored to the point of frustration; It’s like that is the unnatural state to us and unnerving. “The waiting”. We don’t think we seek out or create situations, but it isn’t ruled out because of that unease. We both have a ‘moral flexibility’ toward society norms and concepts of good or bad; we see the spectrum rather than black/white. Both of us are highly creative and also abstract thinkers / deep thoughts types. And we both use humor as a coping tool. And we both have a history of “adrenaline” activities.

Other than that, massively different; Gender, childhoods, economic status, age, personal issues and hangups, ideals, how we make choices, and so forth. 

And our “right to be happy” or "deserve better" is a theoretical thing. Where do you find your happy? I don’t get it from others, I get it from inside. The struggle from the outside might sound miserable. But inside, it’s filled with emotion, passion, highs and lows, victories and defeats, hurt, healing, pride, joy, hate, etc. A whole shotgun blast of emotions with varying intensity. It just feels like you are alive and among the living instead of just coasting along in zombie mode ‘waiting’. Sort of the difference I see, is most folks don’t like those emotional highs and want to cherry pick just the ‘good ones’. This girl and I don’t really see ‘bad emotions’ as any less valid or unwanted because they are still strong emotions… it’s probably our “damage”; Emotional junkies.

An example. So, I used to race. I’d take my $80k car into a corner doing over a 100mph. No runoff, a concrete wall, and knowledge that my insurance won’t cover this sort of thing. But I will drive it right at that edge where the rear is loose and you are making minuet adjustments to keep it balanced just enough to maintain grip. The sense of pride, mixed with adrenaline, fear, ego, etc. and the sights, smells, sounds and overwhelming stimulus is something wonderful. That is feeling alive. It’s not all good emotions, particularly as you are heading into that corner and there is fear, panic, anxiety and a lot of questioning whether or not you are making a mistake… but you do it anyway for that reward.


We just sort of feel ‘dead inside’ doing the grind day after day. That is when we are miserable. And we tend to have relationship that keep us feeling alive inside.


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