# Lingering issues 2 years past wife's 3-year internet/phone affair



## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

She had a 3-year affair on the internet and over the telephone. It started in 2009 and ended in 2012. Married 18 years when it started with two kids in grammar school. We live near NY, he lives in the Southwest. They met on an internet forum. He flirted with her, she jumped in with both feet. They wrote each other raunchy sex fantasy stories and emailed them to each other. She pursued him, wrote how she loved him, thought they were "of the same soul," he seemed to just be in it for the sex stuff. If she wrote "I love you" he would respond with "love ya too." All of this was done at 2-3 in the morning, probably 2-3 nights a week, I thought she was on Facebook connecting with old friends, that's what she told me when I asked. Like others have posted, she was the last person you thought would cheat, she HATED cheaters.

I found out because we always had each other's email passwords and she wasn't tech-savvy enough to delete the messages from the sent folder, she deleted the inbox and the trash, but not the sent mail. Looking through her email for something related to my son's school one late night, I stumbled upon the messages. I read them for a few hours, there were that many. It was clear that they had never met, but that she had wanted to. 

After kids were in bed, I confronted. She tried to deny for about 1 minute, I was furious and told her pack up her stuff and I'd send her on a plane to finally meet other man, if she wanted him she could have him, I pulled out some dresser drawers and dumped them on the floor, started taking stuff out of her closet and throwing it on the floor, told her go get your suitcase, asked her what's his phone number, I want to call and let him know you're on your way - I was dead serious and I can't ever remember being angrier. She never saw me like that before, I had never acted like that before, I'm usually calm and laid back. She wound up in a fetal position hyperventilating, I thought I might have to call for an ambulance.

Since then, over 2 years ago now, she's done anything I asked and took the initiative to do things before I even had to ask. If not for the kids, I would have divorced her. Now she is so attentive to me that I feel like I'm taking advantage of her. I still love her, but it's different. I guess that's why I'm here.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

How do you know that they never met ?

Does it matter if it was a physical affair ?

Did you expose this guy ?


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

warlock07 said:


> How do you know that they never met ?
> 
> Does it matter if it was a physical affair ?
> 
> Did you expose this guy ?


I read all of the emails. She was saying stuff like "some day we are finally going to meet, what do you think our first kiss will be like?" That was one of the things she liked to ask him. She sent him links to songs, 80s videos on youtube, love songs with a couple dancing, and told him, "when we finally meet, that's what I want our first dance to be like." Really pathetic high school stuff it seemed like to me, so unrealistic, she's almost 50 years old, really it's the type of stuff I felt stupid saying even when I was in high school.

I think it would make a difference if it was physical. She told me it was all just fantasy and that she knew they would never meet. I don't believe that, I think she would have met him if he came to her, but he couldn't afford the plane ticket and it would have been outside of her comfort zone to try to fly to him. She never offered to try to meet him. You'd have to know her, she doesn't have any friends who would support an affair, and she hates to travel alone, she's very uncomfortable with it, maybe she would for him, but she wouldn't like it, and she would have to come up with an excuse to do it, and she didn't have one.

3 years of emails between them, so you can imagine I left a lot out. He was unemployed for the whole 3 years, just had gotten a job about a month before I found out. She actually mailed him money at one point, about $700, so he could pay his rent. He couldn't afford the plane ticket. He wasn't that interested in meeting her, I will have to find where I have the emails stored and post a few, if you read them you would see what I mean. Part of what bothers me is how she pursued him and he kind of blew her off from time to time, to me it was so obvious that he only liked trading the sex stories, anything else seemed like work for him, yet she would respond like he was as into her as she was to him.

It was not a steady 3-years hot and heavy, there were times where he didn't respond to her for a week or two, then she would stop emailing, and there would be no contact for a month or two, then he would start it back up and she would be right back on board. He would give some lame excuse like he wasn't feeling well and was busy looking for work, and she wouldn't question it.

Yes, I sent a certified letter to his wife. Actually, the letter was a no contact letter from my wife to him, but I sent it certified to his wife. My wife wrote the letter in her handwriting, but I dictated it. This was the same night I confronted, the sun was coming up by the time I asked her to do this, but I told her don't do it if you don't want to, if you want to be with him, just tell me, I don't want someone who doesn't want me. We were both exhausted at that point, she said just tell me what to write.

Also, the guy had just before the end gotten a job in a small company. Some of the last emails in that last month before I found out, he actually sent from work using his work email. I called up the company and asked to talk to his supervisor, I didn't know the name of the supervisor, I just asked, can I talk to the person who supervises so-and-so. I told him he might want to check on his new employee, he's been emailing raunchy sex stories to my wife. The guy started laughing. I said I'm not kidding, this loser's been out of work for 3 years, he finally got a job, and in the first month he's already using the company email to send my wife some raunchy sex stuff. He said he'd look into it. I said please do because if it happens again I'm going to have to go to the police, we're going to have to get a restraining order or something. I didn't know what the heck I was talking about. And I don't know what happened to the guy after that.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

You may be right. Still, I don't know how many threads start just like yours "I read all of the emails" and then the betrayed find outs they met.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You may be right. Still, I don't know how many threads start just like yours "I read all of the emails" and then the betrayed find outs they met.


This is from one of the last email exchanges before I found out, typical of the type of stuff she sent him, typical of the type of answer he gave her. She always brought up them meeting, he never brought it up first.

My wife: "Do you ever think that if we met, we wouldn't live up to each other's fantasy ? We may never meet, but if we did, I would be so nervous that I would be such a disappointment from what you imagined. What do you think?"

Other guy: "I think the key would be to open towards who we really are versus who we think the other person is. If that happens, it won't be a problem.I don't think it would be a problem at all."

Edit: Actually, in many of the earlier emails, my wife would say stuff like "I know we will meet some day" whereas here she actually is saying "we may never meet." Maybe after 3 years it was petering out on its own at the end just before I found out.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

If nothing else I think your wife and you need some counseling. Both individually and together. I think it would be a good boost. Nice to see you are still with her.


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

you are handling it better than I would.

I totally respect how you feel now..almost bad for her. Meaning that because she wronged you, its being overcompensated for through her doing ANYTHING you want. Thats a one way relationship. I'm not sure of the easy answer, but I'm wondering if you ever got to the "why". This is what counseling would help filter out.

Some will say IC will help. It could, but MC with both of you is the best option.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Counselling would help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

How did she treat you during her affair? How was your sex life?


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Please read the information on this link:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html

It should help you and please continue to post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

Things are going well with us now except I have a lot of little things that come up and nag at me. I am good at putting them out of my head and not thinking about them, but they never really get resolved. I'm not sure there is a resolution that will be to my satisfaction. I'm sure I will not leave my wife over them and I don't know if I posted before, but my sons' welfare and happiness play heavily into any decisions I make.

For example, she claims it was just a fantasy that she got caught up in, that she never had any intention of leaving me. And none of the emails I read ever had any detail about either of them planning on doing that. Still, she was writing stuff about soulmates, not those exact words, and about her love for him, and meeting up someday. 3 years of this on and off. What bothers me is, what if this guy, instead of being an unemployed loser, had the funds to come and visit? Instead of being somewhat uninterested in pursuing it further, what if he was pushing to meet my wife, what if he asked her to leave me for him? Would she still have chosen to throw him under the bus when I confronted?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Is the loss of respect for her something you think can be fixed ?


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

warlock07 said:


> Is the loss of respect for her something you think can be fixed ?



_"It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently."_ - Warren Buffett


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

Just Joe said:


> Things are going well with us now except I have a lot of little things that come up and nag at me. I am good at putting them out of my head and not thinking about them, but they never really get resolved.


Then she needs to help you resolve them. Putting them out of your head isn't fixing the problem, it's ignoring a problem + not resolving it, which is how many relationship dynamics become so messed up in the first place. Of course you have to let certain things go, but don't let something important fester. 

MC is probably a good idea, especially if you guys can't get to the core of what happened. It sounds like it was just a fantasy, but if the guy were closer, you should know that the situation would have likely played out much differently. It sounds like she was ready, at one point at least, to take the next step.

I understand/admire that your son plays into this heavily. Hopefully it's the same for her since you'll both need to work at it if you want to save the family. I hope things go well for you. Good luck.


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## SofaKingWeToddId (Feb 7, 2013)

Hey JustJoe,

I gotta say you handled the confrontation like a pro. You took action and knocked her out of the fog. 

Do you have methods in place to verify she is no longer communicating with him? Have you been to counseling? What books have you read? Does anyone else know of her affair?


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

Just Joe said:


> After kids were in bed, I confronted. She tried to deny for about 1 minute, I was furious and told her pack up her stuff and I'd send her on a plane to finally meet other man, if she wanted him she could have him, I pulled out some dresser drawers and dumped them on the floor, started taking stuff out of her closet and throwing it on the floor, told her go get your suitcase, asked her what's his phone number, I want to call and let him know you're on your way - I was dead serious and I can't ever remember being angrier. She never saw me like that before, I had never acted like that before, I'm usually calm and laid back. She wound up in a fetal position hyperventilating, I thought I might have to call for an ambulance.


I want BS lurkers to read this again and notice how she reacted. If more people took this route instead of the old "I forgive you, please don't leave me blah blah blah" the CWI section of this forum would be a ghost town.

Shock and Awe if the most effective way to wake up a WS but so many BS's are afraid to do it.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

BostonBruins32 said:


> I totally respect how you feel now..almost bad for her. Meaning that because she wronged you, its being overcompensated for through her doing ANYTHING you want. Thats a one way relationship. I'm not sure of the easy answer, but I'm wondering if you ever got to the "why". This is what counseling would help filter out.
> 
> Some will say IC will help. It could, but MC with both of you is the best option.


:iagree:


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

First, Joe, you did great with the confrontation and laying down the law. I also like the follow up with the OM's employer. Great work.



Just Joe said:


> I read all of the emails. ... Part of what bothers me is how she pursued him and he kind of blew her off from time to time, to me it was so obvious that he only liked trading the sex stories, anything else seemed like work for him, yet she would respond like he was as into her as she was to him.
> 
> It was not a steady 3-years hot and heavy, there were times where he didn't respond to her for a week or two, then she would stop emailing, and there would be no contact for a month or two, then he would start it back up and she would be right back on board. He would give some lame excuse like he wasn't feeling well and was busy looking for work, and she wouldn't question it.


All that is an attraction builder. It's just like the first time I met my wife, she started sh!t testing me by being obnoxious and "negging/teasing," because she was very attracted to me. I just turned all my attention to the girl she was with, even though I was there to meet her (future wife). She doesn't even remember being obnoxious, but she does remember me turning away from her, and that increased the attraction.

Your wife was getting a need met, here. Inappropriately, but it's one you should be capitalizing on for your mutual benefit. 

I highly recommend you get this book. Despite the name, it's about how to keep your wife highly attracted to you over the course of a marriage by appealing to her limbic reproduction system. Sounds highbrow, but when you read it, you'll realize you already knew the score at some subconscious level. It is not PC, though. The main thing guys have a hard time doing is getting their wife off the pedestal. That won't be a problem for you, since yours already jumped off her pedestal.


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## Iver (Mar 8, 2013)

The $700 dollars she sent him? 

She needs to pay this back. If she does work she needs to work a weekend job until the money she stole from your family is fully reimbursed.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

So have you had any contact from the OM's wife in response to your letter? 

Has your wife stopped all contact? 

What did she do to return the money she loaned to him?

She sure picked a winner. 

How would she feel if you were loaning money to your fantasy lovers and if the roles were reversed?

Have either of you had IC or MC after this mess?

I do not know how she can get you to trust her again.

How old are your kids?

So she sent him many many messages. Three years is a very long time. So has she starting written you at 2 in the morning to profess her undying love to you?

Good luck to you and your kids.

have you had her sign an agreement about future cheating and divorce?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

harrybrown said:


> So have you had any contact from the OM's wife in response to your letter?
> 
> Has your wife stopped all contact?
> 
> ...


:iagree:
This is what is called affairing down,way down.
You handled it perfectly though.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Wow is it ever nice to see someone who didn't decide that their spouses cheating was all THEIR fault. It sounds like you were just supremely pissed, which is exactly what I was on D day. Good for you!!

Having feelings that there's unresolved issues is pretty normal. You're two years out, and for many, including me, that was a very hard year. And we've done a ton of MC and IC. And my husband does everything in his power to show me how remorseful he is. But your wife DOES need to be addressing this stuff if she isn't.

I would be interested to hear how your relationship as a whole is now? Sex life? Are you best friends again yet?


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

warlock07 said:


> Is the loss of respect for her something you think can be fixed ?


I don't know. I love my wife. I posted only about the affair but I have a long history with her and she always has supported me, has always been my biggest cheerleader. Even during the affair I never sensed that she wasn't on my side. This is 2 years old for me so I am not raw or really hurting, I consider myself pretty much over it, my life is good, my kids are great, I am happy with my life, I am not at all questioning my decision not to divorce and barring another cheating episode even if I have some nagging thoughts about it.

But you are right, something has been lost. I still respect my wife, maybe not as much as I used to, but there is something more intangible that has been lost. I don't know the word for it but it's like I used to think she's always been there for me, through thick and thin, every single time and now I think she's always been there for me, well except for that once. Maybe that's a little too dramatic, but is there a word for that feeling?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

warlock07 said:


> Does it matter if it was a physical affair?


I'm pretty sure they never met but it was physical. They for lack of a better or cruder word pleasured themselves to those emails they exchanged and they also spoke on the phone on occasion and I know they did it then too. To me that is physical. Also she started experimenting with different "grooming" techniques during this. They mentioned these things in the email. As far as I could tell no inappropriate pics or video were involved, neither ever mentioned it, my wife hardly texts and never uses skype or anything like it.
But I do consider it to be physical.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Just Joe said:


> it's like I used to think she's always been there for me, through thick and thin, every single time and now I think she's always been there for me, well except for that once. Maybe that's a little too dramatic, but is there a word for that feeling?


I think this is an excellent way to describe it. We're 4 years out, and every once in a long while we'll be doing something, enjoying ourselves together, and suddenly what he did just hits me between the eyes. The depth of the betrayal is staggering, and the only way it could ever be the way it was before would be for my memory to be erased. But I get through those moments, sometimes with him and sometimes without him, and we carry on. 

The way I look at it is, if I was with someone else, I'd be more worried about THEM cheating, because I know what his mistake did to him, and I know how badly he wants to make sure it never happens again. And I do love the guy tremendously. I made a choice to R with him, and I have never regretted it.


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## CASE_Sensitive (Jul 22, 2013)

Were an pics or skype conversations take place. Have they actually ever seen each other or know how their AP looks?


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

BostonBruins32 said:


> you are handling it better than I would.
> 
> I totally respect how you feel now..almost bad for her. Meaning that because she wronged you, its being overcompensated for through her doing ANYTHING you want. Thats a one way relationship. I'm not sure of the easy answer, but I'm wondering if you ever got to the "why". This is what counseling would help filter out.
> 
> Some will say IC will help. It could, but MC with both of you is the best option.


Why is another thing that bothers me but after reading here a little not as much because it doesn't make sense in most of these stories. It doesn't make any sense. She said "it was all just fantasy" "I never meant to hurt you" "I lost my way" "I got away from God" "I never had any intention of leaving you" and my favorite "I was in a bad place" - we are healthy, our kids are healthy and doing great in everything, our families are healthy and doing OK, we are not hurting for money - what "bad place" could yiu be in.

My wife knows me very well, maybe she dudn't expect me to go ape-sh1t and empty dressers; but she had to know I would be ready to walk if she cheated. I almost did walk I think if she didn't collapse like she did I probsbly would have been out the door.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

CASE_Sensitive said:


> Were an pics or skype conversations take place. Have they actually ever seen each other or know how their AP looks?


Yeah they exchanged pics and were on each other's facebook just nothing sexual as far as pics. But she did tell him how handsome he was and he how pretty she was. He was nothing special in the looks dept. He had some pretty obvious defects not hideous but not handsome but I don't like to make fun of anybody for their looks. He was self conscious about his defect and my wife tried to make him feel better about it and reassur him. It wasn't about looks for her. My wife is pretty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

SofaKingWeToddId said:


> Hey JustJoe,
> 
> I gotta say you handled the confrontation like a pro. You took action and knocked her out of the fog.
> 
> Do you have methods in place to verify she is no longer communicating with him? Have you been to counseling? What books have you read? Does anyone else know of her affair?


I was not a pro, I just did what I felt. When I was reading the emails one after another after another I was getting angrier and angrier. It was a Saturday night and we let the kids stay up later on Saturdays, usually they didn't last that long they would drift off on the couch with the TV on and then we'd walk them into their bedrooms but on this night they were watching the movie Grown Ups and laughing like crazy and it was 11 before the movie ended and we got them to bed. Meanwhile my wife is walking around like nothing's wrong, actually giving me little winks and smiles. I felt like I was going to explode.

Another thing I didn't post yet I don't think was that I had been feeling like our marriage was getting maybe a little stale. I felt like we still loved each other, but we were focused a little too much on the kids and not enough on each other. I had tried to talk to my wife about it for a couple of months, but something always either interrupted it or sidetracked it. So about a week before this, actually 5 days, the Monday before, I had written my wife a letter, not even a page long, saying how much I loved her and wanted to improve our marriage, that our kids were getting older and we had devoted so much time and effort to them but now that they were both in school and a little older and we should have more time to spend together doing some more adult type stuff more often. I wanted to improve things with us, not that things were bad but that I wanted to spend more time with her alone, be more romantic, and yes, have more sex, maybe leave the kids with grandma and grandpa more often and go stay in a hotel for a night or two every so often, do it in the kitchen or in the living room or in the middle of the day instead of always around the kids' schedule. I had seen friends of ours and even siblings of ours doing this, leaving the kids overnight with a relative every so often, and I was a little jealous of all them. Not all of this was in the letter but that was the gist.

I left the letter for her where I knew she would find it when I went to work and when I came home she greeted me at the door and told me how much she agreed with what I wrote, was a little more affectionate than usual, and that whole week I was feeling pretty darn good and looking forward to what was to come. She seemed like she was completely on board with what I wanted.

So when I stumbled upon the emails, I couldn't believe it. I was sitting there watching my family acting perfectly normal, thinking these kids lives are about to be blown apart, and here my wife is waltzing around the room, laughing at the movie, eating popcorn, smiling, like nothing's going on. I felt like one of those cartoons where the blood all rushes to the characters head and then explodes, I was sure my wife or the kids would notice, but they were oblivious. At some point I looked to see well when was the most recent email, was there anything since I gave her the letter on Monday? There was, no raunchy sex fantasy stories that week, but a few emails from her to him that week saying good night my sweetie xxoo or good morning including one from the night before. I'm sitting there looking at her like who is this f'ing alien living in my wife's body, where is my wife, who is this person?

Once I knew the kids were sound asleep I was not all that loud but I spewed venom at her. I was disgusted. We talked all night, more like I ranted all night and she cried. At one point she says be quiet the kids are going to wake up and hear what we're talking about and know something is going on and I was like well what do you think they're going to think when they wake up tomorrow and you're not here or I'm not here, they're going to find out sooner or later, if you were so f'ing worried about hurting the kids you should have thought about how you were f'ing carrying on. I found your f'ing emails, you were too stupid to even delete them right, what are the odds that you left your email open and the kids already read them anyway?

And she's crying and saying I'm sorry I love you we have so much going for us you just sent me that letter and I showed her the email from the night before and said yeah that letter meant so f'ing much to you but you're still telling your f'ing soulmate good night sleep tight and she's saying no we're just friends now I made a mistake but it's over he's just a friend and I said well show me one other friend where you sign your email with good night sweetie with x's and o's and if you tell me he's just your good friend one more f'ing time I'm walking out that door and never coming back.

I got a little worked up all over again just typing that. I haven't thought about all of the stuff I said that night for a long time now. Anyway, I always just felt it was just a stroke of fate or luck or something that I reacted the way I did and she reacted the way we did and we were able to work things out. To me it seems that it just as easily could have gone the other way, it wouldn't have taken much that night to send me packing for good, and I wonder if she wasn't deeper in the fog, if I hadn't sent that letter, or if it had been earlier in her affair when other man seemed more into it, that she wouldn't have just given me a big F. U. who cares? Seems like just dumb luck to me, not so much my reaction, because even if I wasn't so angry there's no way I tolerate something like that, but I wonder if this guy wasn't such a loser or it was earlier in their relationship that she wouldn't have reacted differently. It had been going on three years and maybe it was petering out on its own by that time anyway?


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

SofaKingWeToddId said:


> Hey JustJoe,
> 
> I gotta say you handled the confrontation like a pro. You took action and knocked her out of the fog.
> 
> Do you have methods in place to verify she is no longer communicating with him? Have you been to counseling? What books have you read? Does anyone else know of her affair?


Neither of us has had any counseling. I'm not from the type of family or background where people seek counseling for these types of things. If I need to, I can talk to my brothers or sisters. She is from a similar background. I haven't told anyone about the affair, besides sending the certified letter to the other guy's wife and calling the other guy's supervisor. I don't think she told anyone about it either. I haven't read any books about it and I don't think she has either. I have looked on the internet for some guidance, but there's a lot of conflicting info out there and I basically just have been following what I think is right. 

I have no methods in place to verify she isn't communicating with other man. I always had passwords to everything and initially after I found out I did check up on her from time to time, asked her to give me her phone, checked her facebook, checked her emails, etc., asked who each person on her facebook was, noticed she had a lot of people, both men and women, on there who she didn't know in real life and told her it made me uncomfortable and the next day they were deleted. To be honest, it made me feel like a wuss, checking up on her like that and telling her that, like I was somehow afraid she would love one of those people more than me, it made me feel like a bit of an insecure whiner. It made me feel weak and I didn't like it. I won't do it again.

If she wants to do it again, that's up to her, if I'm not enough for her then I wish she would because I have absolutely ZERO desire to stay with someone who doesn't love me, is just staying for reputation or for money or even for kids, which conflicts me a little because I sometimes feel like I only really stayed, at least initially, for the kids. I do look at her email and facebook every so often, a little more closely than I did pre-affair, but it's few and far between at this point. If she wanted to cheat again, she is a very intelligent woman, I doubt she would use a method I have access to again after what happened last time.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

harrybrown said:


> So have you had any contact from the OM's wife in response to your letter?
> 
> Has your wife stopped all contact?
> 
> ...


No, never heard a word from the other guy's wife or the other guy. My wife blocked them both on facebook. Early on I used to look at her browser history on our computers and her phone and never found anything but the kids use the computers and sometimes even her phone and they, or at least the older one, was old enough to know to delete browser history if he was looking at anything he's not supposed to, so I'm not sure she never looked him up.

I find it hard to believe that they had this thing on and off, mostly on, but maybe petering out, but still it last 3 years, and then all of a sudden she sends that letter and neither of them ever try to contact her, but that's her story and she's sticking to it. Actually I just brought this up the other morning, reading the stories here might be setting me back a little. There was a strange umbrella in our bedroom, and my son said, "mom whose umbrella is that" and my wife said "it's your father's" and I said, "no it's not mine" and by that time my son was out of the room and I said to my wife "maybe it's some other guy's umbrella" and she gave me a sad little look and then just looked down. 

I felt bad but I was running late and had to take my son to school so he ran out to get in the car and she kissed me goodbye at the front door and I said to her that I found it hard to believe that the other guy never tried to contact her and she never tried to contact him after 3 years, how could that possibly be, and she just said "well it's the truth, I'm so sorry," and I said "well I just find it hard to believe and I don't think I'll ever believe it" and just shrugged my shoulders and left. I think that's from reading here maybe, you read about all these unrepentant and still lying cheaters, it maybe makes you a little on edge. So we haven't parted ways like that in forever and I felt like sh1t on my way to work. When I got to work, I had an email from my wife, here it is:

_I am sorry you don't believe me. I understand. I pray that someday you will be able to see I am telling the truth.

I have to answer to God for my many mistakes & how they have hurt you. I pray everyday that I never hurt you again and that you can heal.

I will never forgive myself and will carry this burden forever.

All my love,_

So I felt even worse after reading this.

I don't think she's in contact with him all this time later, I can't help but feel that they found a way to talk or message one or two last times after I confronted her, it would seem to be just human nature to me, but I have absolutely zero evidence, just what my common sense would tell me.

I used to bring up the money from time to time, but haven't in a long time now. I brought it up more to hurt her when I was feeling down about the whole thing than because it actually bothered me. The I love you and I feel we are of the same soul and I want our first dance to be like this stuff bothered me, the money never really did, well the whole damn thing bothered me, but relatively speaking the money is pretty far down on the list. I never asked her to repay it. I don't want to sound any certain way about it, but $700 is not a big deal to me.

No agreement about future cheating or divorce. Except she knows that if she cheats, we divorce. But if you're asking about a pre-nup or a post-nup type thing, no.

No, she hasn't written me anything like she wrote to him. It's not my thing. It doesn't do anything for me. She hasn't offered and I haven't asked, and I'm good with that. But I will say this, she hasn't turned me down once since this happened. If I climb in bed at 2 am and start pinching her butt and rolling her over, she doesn't tell me she's too tired or has to get up early the next day, even if it's true. I took advantage of that early on, but I really don't want someone who is just trying to appease me or does what I want because they are afraid of how I will react, of what I will say.

By the way, the umbrella was her mother's, she called looking it later that night.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Just Joe said:


> Why is another thing that bothers me but after reading here a little not as much because it doesn't make sense in most of these stories. It doesn't make any sense. She said "it was all just fantasy" "I never meant to hurt you" "I lost my way" "I got away from God" "I never had any intention of leaving you" and my favorite "I was in a bad place" - we are healthy, our kids are healthy and doing great in everything, our families are healthy and doing OK, we are not hurting for money - what "bad place" could yiu be in.
> 
> My wife knows me very well, maybe she didn't expect me to go ape-sh1t and empty dressers; but she had to know I would be ready to walk if she cheated. I almost did walk I think if she didn't collapse like she did I probably would have been out the door.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Not to over simplify but this sounds like a classic case of being taken for granted, which unfortunately is fairly common in LTRs. Your W probably felt like she could do something like this because her laid back husband really wouldn't mind so much......or thoughts to that effect.

I've been married for a long time as well and being taken for granted is the single biggest battle that we face IMO. If your SO doesn't fear losing you or isn't as grateful as they should be perhaps, they are more likely to not try as hard as they should in every aspect of the marriage. That's when problems arise.

I also really like the position you took on having the two of them meet. Don't you just know that the OM is probably sloppy looking or has a face that only radio could appreciate. That would have likely killed the fantasy for her permanently as this dude probably didn't look anything like what she had imagined.

If I had to make a guess, I'm thinking that you're feeling like you're not as special in her eyes as you had once thought. It's almost like an emptiness of sorts because you thought you were on a team and found out the other person wasn't/isn't as invested as you are. That can change again but the initial realization of that can leave you feeling rather stark.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

Hope1964 said:


> I would be interested to hear how your relationship as a whole is now? Sex life? Are you best friends again yet?


Relationship is good. She says it's good and acts like it. Lately I've lashed out a couple of times, like I posted before. I don't think it solves anything, it doesn't make me feel any better and definitely doesn't make her feel better, I feel better for about 1 second after I do it, if that. I never thought our relationship was bad, just maybe could have been better and saw others doing certain fun things that I thought we could be doing, going away together, spending more time together without the kids, which we've done.

All those emails, hundreds if not thousands, over the course of a couple of weeks after finding them I had read every last one and what struck me is that she not once ever said anything bad about me. Or good. She never talked about me at all. The only thing she would say is stuff like "you can call me later between 6 and 8, my husband is going out with the boys and I will have privacy." The ONLY things she ever said about me was something like, "my husband is a good man but he just doesn't get it." When I showed her that one she told me she didn't remember it and doesn't know what she meant by it.

Sex life is good. She never says no to anything. She seems enthusiastic about it. I wouldn't forge ahead if I felt like she wasn't into it, but every time I initiate she seems into it. She doesn't initiate very often, but I do it a lot so I don't think I give her much of a chance to initiate. She pinches my butt on the way out the door to work most days, and does some other things too. That behavior totally was absent since we had kids until after the affair.

I guess I feel like we're best friends, except I'm the kind of best friend who lashes out about a past hurt from time to time. I don't have any friends closer than her, who I confide my thoughts and feelings in more than her, even my siblings who I'm pretty close to.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Really nice to see you were able to rebuild. Makes me feel good seeing people reconcile. I can be so negative at times over everything and stories like this makes me feel better.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

You wrote- "My wife blocked them both on facebook." 

She still uses F-book?

Have you used a keylogger? If not, you might want to. If for no other reason than to help provide some additional insight into her surging behaviors. You still seem to have some unanswered questions. A keylogger may not help, but a lack of searches for POSOM or a lack of a new POSOM may provide some insight. 

I would try MC if I were you.

Good luck
WD


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

Machiavelli said:


> First, Joe, you did great with the confrontation and laying down the law. I also like the follow up with the OM's employer. Great work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I really love reading your posts. I'm not much of a reader, I can't remember the last time I read a book. But if you wrote a book, I definitely would read it. You have a knack for getting your point across, but in an entertaining way.

I am aware of the player/game type stuff, it's a little after my time, I already was married I think when a lot of that stuff became popular. I do remember reading some articles about it a long time ago. That's what you're referring to, right?

It seems good to me now with my wife, the attraction seems there, so I don't want to try anything different right now. 
But you do have a certain way of getting your point across, I'm sure I would enjoy reading it even if I happened to disagree with it, so let me know if you think I'm doing it wrong.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

That book has nothing to do with the "player/game type stuff" in the way you think. You read that terrible 3 star review didn't you?

It teaches you things, you may have forgotten, to help your marriage.


jerry123 said:


> *The more i work out the more i get hit on...LOL
> *
> 
> Now it's spring and hot out i've built a nice tan to go along with muscles. My wife loves it, sex has gone up to 2-3 times a week and one weekend it was 4X in 2 days.
> ...


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> That book has nothing to do with the "player/game type stuff" in the way you think. You read that terrible 3 star review didn't you?


No, I didn't look it up at all, just hovered my mouse over the link. The other stuff Machiavelli wrote about negging/teasing I thought was player/game stuff, I guess that's why I thought the book was too.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

Joe, I wonder if all the "what ifs" that have to be bouncing around in the back of your mind have a lot to do with how you are feeling. Even after two years out.

You said it yourself, the way you reacted that night and the way she reacted that night had a lot to do with you not going right for a D.

What if the OM was "good looking", or lived down the road, or flew out to meet her, or?...

I can't say that I wouldn't be pondering the same questions. But the only answers to these questions are, you'll never know.

Your Wife seems to have done what MANY BS's that come here could only hope for in the way of doing the "heavy lifting". I know you realize this. The question is, how can you stop letting "it" get you.

I think that when it hit's you and you're struggling with it, let her know about instead of trying to hold it in, until it pops like a cork. Then you lash out verbally and feel bad about it 2 seconds later.

Maybe something like "Honey, I'm still trying to control/deal with this. In the future when this happens I'm just going to tell you that I need some time alone and walk away for a bit."

When you come back, if she tries to console you and you're o.k. with it, then let her. If you're not o.k. with it, just tell her you appreciate it, but sorry, right now is not a good time.

My point is, you know it coming. You let her know it's coming and that you just need some time and space to try to let it pass.

Afterwards, if she tries to console you and you're up for it, then let her. Remember, she's trying to heal also. BUT, if you're not up to it, let her know right up front that is not one of the times that it's going to help you. Thank her for the concern and say that you just want to try to mellow out on your own for a while.

Maybe if you both start to deal with this together, you'll at least gain an understanding of what the other is having to deal with because of what happened.

You may think I'm a little screwy, but I think that you have a lot more positives than negatives in your R. If you don't care for counselors(I don't either), you're BOTH going to have to figure this out for your selves.

And yes, this place can be as much of an anchor as a wind for your sails while working on R. If you starts logging out with more questions, than answers, you may want to limit your reading/posting to once a week, or such.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Just Joe said:


> No, I didn't look it up at all, just hovered my mouse over the link. The other stuff Machiavelli wrote about negging/teasing I thought was player/game stuff, I guess that's why I thought the book was too.


The link is to amazon, they show the highest and lowest reviews in the link. It is called _The Married Man Sex Life Primer_ aka MMSLP all over this website. It is written by a married man for married men to help with their marriage and attraction. This went on for 3 years, so it may be okay now, but something happened to where she lost attraction for you. Contrary to what people believe, I think people can repent, be remorseful, truly fix their marriage and still loose their sexual attraction again. They may not cheat, but the marriage falls into a rut if you don't fix the attraction problems.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Just Joe,

I appreciate the honesty in your posting.

Time has obviously helped you process much of it.

It sounds to me like your wife fell off her pedestal and you were never able to get her back up there. That’s for the best, its not reality anyway.

Protecting your wife and marriage, co`ckblocking when necessary is just part of being a man.

I really admire that you were wanting to work on your marriage unprompted. You get high marks in the relationship department.

Your wife made poor choices but her vulnerability was not unique.

That does not mean she is not a special lady.

Thanks for sharing your story.
Take care!


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Just Joe said:


> No, never heard a word from the other guy's wife or the other guy. My wife blocked them both on facebook. Early on I used to look at her browser history on our computers and her phone and never found anything but the kids use the computers and sometimes even her phone and they, or at least the older one, was old enough to know to delete browser history if he was looking at anything he's not supposed to, so I'm not sure she never looked him up.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that they had this thing on and off, mostly on, but maybe petering out, but still it last 3 years, and then all of a sudden she sends that letter and neither of them ever try to contact her, but that's her story and she's sticking to it. Actually I just brought this up the other morning, reading the stories here might be setting me back a little. There was a strange umbrella in our bedroom, and my son said, "mom whose umbrella is that" and my wife said "it's your father's" and I said, "no it's not mine" and by that time my son was out of the room and I said to my wife "maybe it's some other guy's umbrella" and she gave me a sad little look and then just looked down.


So you have never installed a keylogger like Specter Pro, Web Watcher, or Spy Agent? This was a THREE YEAR EA! Have you heard the term "fishing" when it comes to infidelity? It's when one of the Affair Partners (AP) contacts the other to renew contact. It might be something as innocuous as "how are you?" or "hi". 










You have never really been able to verify NC. This is why you have not healed very well. You already know its easy enough to delete browser history.

You would have been able to heal better if you were able to independently verify that she's NC with OM. Once you can verify on your own, then something happens, you begin to feel secure, because you've seen with your own eyes with the keylogger, that there's been no contact thru the computer. Here are some examples that you can use to help yourself heal.

Best Computer Monitoring Software 2014 | Reviews, Ratings & More


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey JJ------I think you said---you never got the WHY from her,---------so she has never given you any reasoning, for her 3 yrs of fantasy with her lover. Did you ever ask her what she was thinking, each time she sat down to write her lover, knowing full well she had a decent mge, and kids? 

Did they get into any heavy sexting---if so, even tho they were not touching, they were having sex.

During that 3 yr period----what kind of passion was there tween you and your wife----or had she completely transferred all her passion to her lover----you were what around 13 yrs into your mge----passion, probably was not very much,---so she went out and got it with her lover

Other possibility, do you think maybe this was the beginnings of a mid-life crises, and change for your wife---she was taking one fling, knowing that soon enuff, she would be going into her golden yrs, and you and you alone, would probably be the only man to continue to look at her as a woman--

--as one gets older---the opposite sex, does not see you at all, this all could have been playing into her fantasies

Your wife obviously was very good at compartmentalizing the whole situation----and sad to say, the thoughts that cross your mind in re: her going to him, or vice versa---may never go away

As to checking on her----nothing wrong with that----you are PROTECTING YOUR MGE.-------lets admit the truth---for 3 yrs----she had a lover, and you never knew it----your wife does know how to play the game---you have every right to check and protect the mge, and you should not feel any guilt whatsoever-----ANY DISCOMFORT SHE HAS ABOUT ANYTHING----IS HER OWN DOING!!!!!!!!!!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Just Joe said:


> What bothers me is, what if this guy, instead of being an unemployed loser, had the funds to come and visit? Instead of being somewhat uninterested in pursuing it further, what if he was pushing to meet my wife, what if he asked her to leave me for him? Would she still have chosen to throw him under the bus when I confronted?


This is exactly what happened with my ex wife and I. 2 years of internet/email/phone contact with OM, except he DID have the means to travel. It did not end well (for me).

In your case, you can either be thankful he/she did not have the means to meet each other, or not.

Had my ex wife not been able to meet her OM and I caught them "in the act", as you did, perhaps I'd be in the same boat as you are now, and she'd have shown remorse - at being caught.

So it all depends on how you look at things. Either you dodged a bullet or SHE did.

Having gone through what I went through, and the end result of it all, I'm not sure I would have stayed with my ex wife if I had caught her earlier, before they met, but hindsight is 20/20. Had I caught her earlier, she would probably have reacted the same way your wife did - embarrassed and remorseful. But I caught it FAR too late, and plans were already in motion. You could have easily been in the same situation, had it gone on long enough or he wasn't some unemployed bum.

Timing is everything, so you can either look at it as a good thing that you caught it before it went any further, and stay with her, or you can look at it in the way that you found out what she's capable of and dump her ass, but you lucked out because you didn't have to truly feel the knife twisting in your back.

In short, I now have a zero tolerance policy because of what happened to me.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> That book has nothing to do with the "player/game type stuff" in the way you think. You read that terrible 3 star review didn't you?
> 
> It teaches you things, you may have forgotten, to help your marriage.


I will order a copy.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Joe, i'm going to take a stab at the why question. You mention that she never wrote that kind of thing to you and also that it's not you and would do nothing for you. But maybe your wife secretly craves this kind of connection and doesn't have it with you. I don't mean that you have to act like teenagers, but once in a while that deep connection is nice for women. My hb also isn't a "soulmate" type of guy, and neither am I really, but once in while he'll make a comment along those lines and it makes me feel very close to him. How often do you or did you tell your wife how special she is or how much she means to you? Many times men will assume we just know these things but we need to hear it sometimes.

This isn't meant to excuse her actions, just to explore the "why".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> maybe your wife secretly craves this kind of connection and doesn't have it with you]



LOL.

More than likely, she wants an nice, stable husband and a man other than her husband for sleazy sex talk on the internet because sneaking around is a thrill (hey, she had him fooled..., so see how much smarter she is? No?), and she thinks the universe revolves around her for all practical purposes.

If all she wanted was sleazy sex talk from her husband, she could ask. And even if she would have asked, and he did not agree, that wouldn't make any of this OK. The sneaking around and deception are character issues. Prisons are full of people who thought they were smarter than everybody else so they wouldn't get caught doing something they knew was wrong.

Who is she? Somebody who knows right from wrong (hence deception and sneaking around) but who doesn't care about that.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

TimeHeals said:


> LOL.
> 
> More than likely, she wants an nice, stable husband and a man other than her husband for sleazy sex talk on the internet because sneaking around is a thrill (hey, she had him fooled..., so see how much smarter she is? No?), and she thinks the universe revolves around her for all practical purposes.
> 
> ...


Well that was helpful. He's still struggling to comprehend the why, I take a stab at it and you blow it off with a condescending answer. Nice.

If that's how she felt he wouldn't be in a situation where she never turns him down. But whatever, keep your mind closed and see how that works for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Joe, i'm going to take a stab at the why question. You mention that *she never wrote that kind of thing to you *and also that it's not you and would do nothing for you. But *maybe your wife secretly craves this kind of connection and doesn't have it with you*. I don't mean that you have to act like teenagers, but once in a while that deep connection is nice for women. My hb also isn't a* "soulmate" type of guy, and neither am I really, but once in while he'll make a comment along those lines* and it makes me feel very close to him. How often do you or did you tell your wife how special she is or how much she means to you? Many times men will assume we just know these things but we need to hear it sometimes.
> 
> This isn't meant to excuse her actions, just to explore the "why".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What I was talking about that she never wrote for me was the really raunchy stuff. I did consider maybe she really likes this stuff, but I don't think she does, I think she just did it because once he had her hooked, she just went along with the stories thing, I know she was uncomfortable writing the first few, but she got to enjoy them over the course of time.

W saw each other every morning and night, I've never had to travel much for work, so we don't communicate via written word, we talk to each other. This guy and her communicated via email and private messages, but it was like they did it only for an hour or two in the middle of the night a few times a week. This guy lived with his wife in a very very small apartment and had to wait until she was out or asleep to communicate. My wife had me and two kids who could sneak up on her at any time also so the same for her. So it wasn't like it was constant all day long, but you make a good point, because she obviously really looked forward to it, she couldn't wait to get up in the middle of the night to see what he had written. 

We were married 18 years when this started, I'd be curious on your thoughts of duplicating that anticipation that she showed for him.

We see each other every morning and night and weekend, that whole real-life thing as opposed to the fantasy and infatuation of a new relationship. And at least from my wife's end, I could see that it was about that exciting new feeling you get when you first meet someone and are finding out all about them. Even after 3 years, they didn't trade enough information about their real lives that they would know each other very well.

I don't think you can duplicate the excitement of a new relationship, the excitement of finding all about this new person in your life, in a 20-year marriage. Of course, there are things in a 20-year marriage that you definitely can't duplicate in a new relationship, too. I like that my wife knows me better than anyone else, and I know her, which is the other side of the coin that you can't get with someone you just met. Plus, hearing "you're special" from someone who never said it before, has a bigger impact than hearing it from someone who tells it to you every day. Even hearing that from your spouse can get routine.

The "I love you," "you're special" stuff, that stuff I do and did say, and I was sincere, but I think after 20 years it loses something and becomes routine rather than hearing it from someone new. You're right, I have never told her she's my soulmate but this guy didn't either, that's something she arrived at by having him parrot a lot of her likes back at her.

The thing is, this guy was not very direct. He didn't start out with "you're special," "you're sexy" or "you're hot" and telling her anything raunchy. It started out with him kind of echoing her comments, liking her comments, if she posted she liked a certain song, he responded by posting a link to the song or posting some of the lyrics, stuff like that. Pretty soon she was like "we have so much in common" and he was like "yeah we really do" and then he started asking her what kind of food do you like, what's your favorite TV show, what do you like better, hot dogs or hamburgers, and before you know it he throws in a question about sex, to me it seemed like he was testing the waters, and when she just responded to it in the same friendly way he just stepped on the gas and they were off.

This thing escalated from zero to soulmates in 2 weeks, I don't have a good read on the guy because if it was me and I wanted to manipulate her at that point, no doubt I could have fueled her on and gotten her to send me pics and vids, I think she would have done it if he asked for them and if he knew what buttons to push, but he ran hot and cold and he never asked for pics or vids, never really suggested meeting up with her, it seemed he was all about the raunchy sex stories, everything else seemed designed to keep that going. Maybe like Machiavelli posted that was his game, the hot and cold stuff, kept her coming back wanting more.

My wife is normally a smart person, I don't know how she couldn't see that as it was happening. It reminds me of when I was younger, I dated a lot of girls, and they would have guys who were very friendly with them, offer to do things for them, drive them places, buy them things, I don't know if you get my drift, but these guys were trying to get with these girls, and I would say to the girl "if you're with me just tell this guy to get lost," and they would say "oh he's such a nice guy, he's just a friend" and I would say "are you crazy, do you ever see this guy do nice things for other guys, he only does them for girls, and hot girls at that" but I came to realize that these girls really did believe there were a lot of these really nice guys out there. I know a lot of these girls smartened up when they got a little older. It seems like my wife fell for that type of thing with this guy, which is strange, because one of the many things I liked about my wife when I first met her was that she always could see right through that crap, and my wife did get a little teen-agey with this guy.

I did find it amazing that my wife could be so into it after only two weeks of communicating with the guy. The guy did know how to play up the whole "we have so much in common" angle, but still, 2 weeks. She wrote him at one point something like "do you believe that we didn't even know each other 2 weeks ago?"

I was reading one of posts about brain chemicals and you know I've never been much of a scientist when it comes to relationships, but I do think there is something to that. I've been reading a lot of these stories, and you know I'm looking at it from the point of view of a man cheated on by a woman, I think a woman has more hormonal stuff going on than a guy, but from both ends, it just seems the cheaters use such poor judgement and bad reasoning, but really only isolated to their affair. Maybe it is some type of internally-generated brain drug that is clouding their reasoning and judgement about the affair.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

TimeHeals said:


> LOL.
> 
> More than likely, she wants an nice, stable husband and a man other than her husband for sleazy sex talk on the internet because sneaking around is a thrill (hey, she had him fooled..., so see how much smarter she is? No?), and *she thinks the universe revolves around her for all practical purposes*.
> 
> ...


My wife was never the type to think the universe revolves around her. I know that type and never could stomach it.

When I was younger I knew guys with drug problems who did some time in prison, I knew guys who did a little jail time for multiple drunk driving, these were basically nice guys in other aspects of their lives. When I was a kid I did stuff I knew was wrong and lied to my parents, it wasn't that I didn't love or respect my parents. I knew right from wrong, and sometimes I chose wrong because I thought it would be more fun. I cared about what my parents thought, but not enough to not do the wrong thing I wanted to do. I felt bad and eventually learned, usually the hard way. I'm not sure that has anything to do with my wife or her affair, but I do think it was fun for her, and I do think she learned the hard way.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> That book has nothing to do with the "player/game type stuff" in the way you think. You read that terrible 3 star review didn't you?
> 
> It teaches you things, you may have forgotten, to help your marriage.


I'm definitely not trying to be a player. 

I just work out everyday for myself, the by product is my wife now gives me more sex than ever before. And I get looks from women, they just come up to me now. I don't ever chase them. I could have thrown the number out right there but I figured it was a good loyalty sh!t test to pass...my wife knows a woman gave me her # because I gave her it. I could have also kept it if I was a player. I did not.i truly believe 100% the great sex I got that night was because of the actions I took. 

I've read the book like 3x. It's a fabulous book!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

JJ, do you think your wife is bored with a safe and average life and this was her way of reaching out?


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> JJ, do you think your wife is bored with a safe and average life and this was her way of reaching out?


That's also what I was thinking...

All marriages end up In a rut at some point. She probably wanted excitement back. 

To her, and I would say a lot of cheater women, she had a safe, stable husband at home but you were not giving her the dopamine so she found it elsewhere. I'm not saying it totally your fault. I'm certain every guy goes through this at one point. It's a choice the cheater makes to look outside the marriage for excitement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

thatbpguy said:


> JJ, do you think your wife is bored with a safe and average life and this was her way of reaching out?


No, I think she just stumbled into it, or it just stumbled into her, and then she enjoyed the new relationship effects, the excitement, but I don't think she set out looking for it.

She liked this band, and she wanted to get tickets to see them, and she heard that you could get tickets easier or cheaper or earlier than they were available to the general public if you were on this fan website. That's why she joined it. Then she posted to their forums and that's how she met this guy. 

The guy was one of their longer-time members and my impression is that he jumped on new female posters of a certain age range and struck up relationships with them. He was in the same age range as my wife, but most of the people who posted there were younger than them. I know my wife found out he was exchanging emails with other female posters (also in the same age range) at one point and my wife was jealous. But anyway, that's how it started.

He was unemployed. If he posted what he did that day, it might be something like he took a walk or he played with his cat, he looked for a job, went on an interview, stuff like that. An exciting day might be if he went to the local zoo on the day they let you in for free. I kid you not, I couldn't make this stuff up. If my wife asked him how was your day, he would answer "OK" or something short, and then move on to "I heard the band is releasing a new album" or played a great concert last night or how much he enjoyed what my wife wrote for him or asking her how she liked what he wrote for her.

I think she got hooked by that new relationship excitement, that butterfly in the stomach thing you get in the beginning. I don't think she looked for it, I think she stumbled on it by accident, or it stumbled on her, but she definitely liked it or was hooked by it.

She seemed to be in a real fantasy land type space, I really don't believe she had any intention of leaving me, yet I also think she wanted to meet up with this guy and explore that. How she thought she could stay with me and explore with him, that I don't know. I'm tempted to blame brain chemicals, but how come my brain chemicals don't seem to work that way?

How do you provide the butterfly in the stomach feeling after 18 years, now 23 years? She wasn't giving me butterflies, either.

I'm no schlub, I bring a lot to the table, I'm a good-looking guy, I'm a great dad, I'm a little league coach, I'm good with kids, I make a good living, I have a senior position in the company I work for, I have some level of professional success and esteem in my industry, I think I'm fairly well-respected and well-liked by people I know and meet, and I really love my wife and family. I know my wife knows other women have shown interest in me, but I am not open to it, and I just ignore it or politely decline. Maybe my wife was too complacent that I wouldn't take them up on it when it happened? I don't even usually tell her about it. Maybe I should have been collecting their phone numbers and showing them to her?


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

jerry123 said:


> That's also what I was thinking...
> 
> All marriages end up In a rut at some point. She probably wanted excitement back.
> 
> ...


So how do you give them the dopamine?

Do you have to make them feel like you have one foot out the door and you're ready to replace them? I know plenty of guys who have replaced their 50 with two 25s, is that what I should have been leading her to believe? And if so, what if that's not the kind of marriage I want to have?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

JJ, interesting. I can see how she could sucked in, I suppose. But what puzzles me is how long it went on. At some point in time she must have known how wrong and destructive it could be. I hope she really gers it now.

I mean, posting on message boards can be dicey.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Jimi Hendrix's "hey, Joe where you going with that gun in your hand?" is not your wife's favorite rock classic these days.

Good job. Sounds like she was completely blown away with your decisive response to her cheating. It was a classic teenage fantasy fueled by the selfish gene. 

In some way you have a better marriage now. It sounds as if she no longer takes you for granted.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Just Joe said:


> My wife was never the type to think the universe revolves around her. I know that type and never could stomach it.
> 
> When I was younger I knew guys with drug problems who did some time in prison, I knew guys who did a little jail time for multiple drunk driving, these were basically nice guys in other aspects of their lives. When I was a kid I did stuff I knew was wrong and lied to my parents, it wasn't that I didn't love or respect my parents. I knew right from wrong, and sometimes I chose wrong because I thought it would be more fun. I cared about what my parents thought, but not enough to not do the wrong thing I wanted to do. I felt bad and eventually learned, usually the hard way. I'm not sure that has anything to do with my wife or her affair, but I do think it was fun for her, and I do think she learned the hard way.


Very perceptive. And I do think many affairs fall into the same category. "I know it's wrong ...buttttt"


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Interesting. The more you type the more I think I see why you have a problem. You both should find a good marriage counselor and discuss what you haven't reconciled about her actions.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: Lingering issues 2 years past wife's 3-year internet/phone affair*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Interesting. The more you type the more I think I see why you have a problem. You both should find a good marriage counselor and discuss what you haven't reconciled about her actions.


Where are you going with this? I see a couple of directions but was curious to your take.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I think Joe built up a story, they didn't fully discuss the affair and it has been eating at him in his subconscious mind. If you look at his early posts, the other man was a player/predator who took advantage of his wife. The more he types, the more it looks like SHE was pursuing the douche. He even says that dude was indifferent in the correspondence except the sex talk. Personally, I think she pursued him and the OM was trying to see how far he could push her actions. 

I think he is dealing with guilt for lowered trust, unreconciled feelings about her "affairing down" and even with Joe's protestation she was pursuing the guy. Your mind likes to connect thing even when you don't want to.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I think Joe built up a story, they didn't fully discuss the affair and it has been eating at him in his subconscious mind. If you look at his early posts, the other man was a player/predator who took advantage of his wife. The more he types, the more it looks like SHE was pursuing the douche. He even says that dude was indifferent in the correspondence except the sex talk. Personally, I think she pursued him and the OM was trying to see how far he could push her actions.
> 
> I think he is dealing with guilt for lowered trust, unreconciled feelings about her "affairing down" and even with Joe's protestation she was pursuing the guy. Your mind likes to connect thing even when you don't want to.


I know she pursued him, I was never under any different impression. He started it and got her interest, he pursued her for like 2-3 weeks, then he lost interest and she pursued him for the rest of the time. He ran hot and cold. I don't know if he was a predator or not. You are going to have to take my word for it because I read all the emails, but all I think he liked to do was type stories on the computer and read her stories, he would write like picture we are on a plane and I am the captain and you come into the cabin and I put it on autopilot, like the plot to a porno scene, except he wasn't interested in pics or vids or meeting up, he would just write these stories and ask her to write for him, except after a little bit he didn't have to ask. I don't know if you would call it a fetish. He gave her just enough of the other stuff, the "we have so much in common" "we think alike" "we have so many common interests" (they really only had the music), to get to the other stuff. It was so obvious to me, what was frustrating to me reading the stuff is that she was oblivious to it and it really turned into her pursuing some guy who really was pretty indifferent to her as a person, so I even felt a little sorry for her except initially when I first found out the anger was so overwhelming, but when I re-read them, she came off as a little pathetic. In real life, she's not.

I have to go out now, later I will dig up another one of the things she wrote to him to show you how pathetic it looked, this one really stood out to me.

Part of what bothers me is that it doesn't make a lot of sense. I can live with that, I know people do things that don't make sense, and a lot of the stories I have read here the cheating doesn't make any sense, but I am the type of guy who does things for a reason and thinks of the consequences and my wife up until then and since then always was that type, too.

This is what I posted here earlier:

_3 years of emails between them, so you can imagine I left a lot out. He was unemployed for the whole 3 years, just had gotten a job about a month before I found out. She actually mailed him money at one point, about $700, so he could pay his rent. He couldn't afford the plane ticket. He wasn't that interested in meeting her, I will have to find where I have the emails stored and post a few, if you read them you would see what I mean. Part of what bothers me is how she pursued him and he kind of blew her off from time to time, to me it was so obvious that he only liked trading the sex stories, anything else seemed like work for him, yet she would respond like he was as into her as she was to him.

It was not a steady 3-years hot and heavy, there were times where he didn't respond to her for a week or two, then she would stop emailing, and there would be no contact for a month or two, then he would start it back up and she would be right back on board. He would give some lame excuse like he wasn't feeling well and was busy looking for work, and she wouldn't question it._


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

Just Joe said:


> When I was a kid I did stuff I knew was wrong and lied to my parents, it wasn't that I didn't love or respect my parents. I knew right from wrong, and sometimes I chose wrong because I thought it would be more fun. I .


And you thought you could get away with it, and you probably didn't see how it could hurt your parents (pretty important distinction).

Do you honestly think she didn't think this would hurt you?

She just didn't care. And it's one thing in a teenager. They're pretty narcissitic (and they do think the world revolves around them generally: their problems, their feelings, their choice in music, what sneakers they wear to school, and so on).

You expect a certain amount of that in young people. Adults who do things they know are wrong that they know will hurt somebody else and which could risk their family/marriage are a different animal.

If you want to pretend that her actions--including sending this bozo 700 bucks of family monies--aren't telling you who she is, go ahead, but my experience is that actions tell you something, words not so much.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

TimeHeals said:


> And you thought you could get away with it, and you probably didn't see how it could hurt your parents (pretty important distinction).
> 
> Do you honestly think she didn't think this would hurt you?
> 
> ...


I agree she knew it would hurt me. She says she never meant to hurt me. What I take it to mean is that she didn't do it for the purpose of hurting me. I think she did care about hurting me, but not enough to stop. I also agree that actions speak louder than words. I also agree that adults should be held to a higher standard of self control. I also agree that it is our actions that show who we are.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

Here are a couple of messages from her to him:

_I dropped by tonight hoping you might. I just took a chance. I was wondering how day 1 went & also the other interview. I was hoping for a pm as I did see you around on the Facebook feed. . Hope it went well.

OK - I know well enough to ask. Who is (female name 1)? Gosh, her & (female name 2) are having a grand old time chatting you up there LOL ! In case you haven't noticed, I've tried not to make myself too at home there because it is certainly not private. I appreciate you trying to comment more on mine. Feel free to continue as I do enjoy it ! I won't worry about (female name 1) or (female name 2) ..... they're not special like me . Right LOL!!!_

__________________

_Hi (other guy's name)!

I hope you had a nice Christmas! Did you like my e-card? I thought it was cute. Hey , you didn't send me one as promised so I will hold you to a nice Valentine's Day one .

I've been busy with little privacy so I just noticed now that you answered my q's. Thanks ! 

There was one more q I forgot & you don't have to answer if you don't want to. I've always wanted to ask you why you pretty much disappeared from my life for about 8 months year before last ? It hurt but it was made worse because you never said why. Then you magically appeared. I was happy but always wanted to know what happened.

I really miss chatting in real time & hope we can do it very soon. I miss you!!!!!

Love,
(wife name) xoxo_
_______________

His reply to her:

_Your card was great. I sent a return card 10 minutes after you sent yours. Did you not receive it? It went to your gmail account.

Will your privacy be getting better after the holidays? Glad you liked my answers!

Three more reasons I adore you. 1) When you write, I can read the smile on your face. 2) We get each other. 3) You make me smile.

I stepped back for a while because I had so much going on that I really lost track of who I was. I needed to collect myself, figure that out and then go forward again.

A day doesn't go by where I don't think of you in THAT way. I like that.

Love ya!

(other guy's name)_


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

So is she remorseful now? 


is she off the computer? and giving effort to your family and you?

How would she react to a separation?


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> Is the loss of respect for her something you think can be fixed ?


This. 

There is a high probability that she will move on. She will feel remove herself from this memory and continue to truly love you. It will come down to whether or not you can move on from it. 

My wife seeked attention from many men when I first met her and before I met her. I smoked this out quickly. I passed it off as something that wasnt a big deal. This was 10 years ago. Then last year, either through boredom, lowered self esteem, or a challenging marriage, she began to seek attention again. The point of sharing this with you is that I'm a big believer that people are who they are, and these things dont go away. Therefore I'm on guard, probably worse than ever now. She feels fine, but the distrust and or inability to feel secure about tomorrow lives in me.

Will this eat at you for the next 15 years? or can you compartmentalize and move on?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Just Joe said:


> She liked this band, and she wanted to get tickets to see them, and she heard that you could get tickets easier or cheaper or earlier than they were available to the general public if you were on this fan website. That's why she joined it. Then she posted to their forums and that's how she met this guy.
> 
> The guy was one of their longer-time members and my impression is that he jumped on new female posters of a certain age range and struck up relationships with them. He was in the same age range as my wife, but most of the people who posted there were younger than them. I know my wife found out he was exchanging emails with other female posters (also in the same age range) at one point and my wife was jealous. But anyway, that's how it started.
> I think she got hooked by that new relationship excitement, that butterfly in the stomach thing you get in the beginning. I don't think she looked for it, I think she stumbled on it by accident, or it stumbled on her, but she definitely liked it or was hooked by it.
> ...


This is neither here, nor there, and I'm not trying to thread-jack, but your more in depth description of the how's and where's describes the situation with my ex-wife to a "T".

It was the same thing with her - band fan site, he a long-time member, she looking for pre-sale tickets, fan-club benefits, etc. Both of them being slightly older than the demographic there. She hit him up first, as they were around the same age, and he was (is?) also a musician with a YouTube channel that was popular amongst the fans of this band (cover songs, etc.) So a lot in common for her to reach out first and heap praise on him. Not to mention she was able to see what he looked like because of his videos.

Started out with commenting on each other's posts there, then PM's on the site. Moved to email, then later, phone and in person, over a two year period. He lived in Europe, we in North America. But he DID have the means to travel, apparently, at that time.

It's eerily similar, your stories and mine, at least in how they started out and progressed. You just caught yours before it went to far, as mine did.

As far as your wife and my ex are concerned, their general personalities seem similar. I wouldn't have thought for a second that mine would engage in something like this, either. I was lucky enough to not have to read through all their correspondence, and I'm glad I didn't. But I don't doubt that she acted like somebody else entirely while doing so. Somebody I wouldn't have recognized at the time.

I also strongly believe that she was the aggressor in this (though he was certainly complicit). I never spoke to the guy in person, however I was aware of who he was, as I was a member of this website, too, and also watched his YouTube videos (sometimes with my ex wife... sigh). In hindsight, I could see why/how she would be attracted to him. 

I did contact him after the fact, and politely told him what I thought of him and my ex wife and that I did not appreciate how he carried on with a married woman, regardless of the fact they ended up together. He seemed more or less apologetic to me, and never acted like the alpha male or otherwise rubbed it in. In other words, he didn't come across as "that guy", so I left it alone. If my ex wife was capable of going behind her husbands back like that for 2 years simply because things got stale, then she's more than likely capable of doing it again in the future. I'm certain she got all the excitement she was craving, but eventually that will wane, as well, and life will get boring again. 

The first several years we were together, she wouldn't leave my side, and we did everything together. Lots of adventures, lots of excitement, etc. Then reality always sets in, and the boredom comes, and that's when you separate the wheat from the chaff. You get married, buy a house, have jobs to go to every day, and bills to pay. Excitement comes in drips and drabs. You either accept the inevitable daily grind and be thankful you're going through it with someone who loves you, or you go looking for that excitement again, with or without your partner. I know what direction she took, and when the daily grind hits her again, the odds are she'll react the same way. So that'll be his problem. He'll either have to step up his game for her sake, or he'll have to deal with a wandering wife. She won't be any less demanding with him than she was with me. I once quit a solid career that I was advancing rapidly in because she was bored of our city and wanted to move cross-country. I was naïve, so I did it. After 3 months there, she was homesick and hated it, so back we went. She got her old job back, I didn't, and was unemployed a total of 6 months. I finally landed back on my feet, but never to the degree I was at before, and it's set me back, career-wise, several years. I should have known then... Ironically, I know that after her spending a couple of years in Europe, they moved back to this area - probably at her suggestion - which didn't last, so they moved back overseas. I will make the (probably correct) assumption that it was her idea, that she was unhappy or bored and needed a change. God help that man.

Knowing what I know now, had I caught my ex wife earlier and she showed the same remorse as your wife is showing you, I don't think I'd stand for it. You've said several times that she and the OM didn't have the means to get together in real life - I would have thought the same thing of my ex wife at that time. Make no mistake, if they really wanted to, they would have found a way at some point. Or in my case, my ex wife told me she wanted to be separated, take some "time off", and think about things. She was in Europe 2 weeks later. She knew she couldn't disappear for any length of time while we were together. It may very well have got to the point where your wife said the same thing to you, in order to get two weeks "vacation" from the marriage to chase her fantasies. You just caught her early enough on to shake her out of the fog.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

BostonBruins32 said:


> My wife seeked attention from many men when I first met her and before I met her. I smoked this out quickly. I passed it off as something that wasnt a big deal. This was 10 years ago. Then last year, either through boredom, lowered self esteem, or a challenging marriage, she began to seek attention again. The point of sharing this with you is that I'm a big believer that people are who they are, and these things dont go away. Therefore I'm on guard, probably worse than ever now. She feels fine, but the distrust and or inability to feel secure about tomorrow lives in me.


Oh man, another post that hits a nerve in me... 

My current wife (enough talk of my ex) was like that when we first met, too... urgh. Like you, I smoked it out right away, dealt with it with her, end of problem. I hope!

But it totally sucks, because I'm also on guard about it, and I don't want to have to be like that.

Don't get me wrong, I trust my wife. She is happy (or so she says!) but... I've seen what she can be like when she's lonely or single. Even in the first few months when we weren't "serious", she had no problem flirting with other guys, including at work, or on Facebook, and not hiding it from me. Her reasoning was that was just who she was - a flirty woman. Her ex before me also saw that, but took a different route than I did in addressing it. He played the jealous husband type, always checking up on her, getting angry, accusing her of cheating, etc. I sat her down and talked to her about how it makes me feel, how it makes her look, how it makes her look like she's minimizing our relationship, how it emasculates me, etc. She understood, and it stopped. 

fyi, it was never anything overtly sexual, just standard flirting, whatever that is. But nonetheless, you don't make somebody of the opposite sex think you're available when you're not, regardless of whether you'd act on it. It's disingenuous to all parties. Makes your partner look like an a*****e, makes the other person think they have a chance, makes you look cheap and easy.

But the thought is always in the back of my mind that she'll fall back into that again, it's just her personality. IRL, she's not an attention-seeker, doesn't need to be the center of attention, the life of the party. She's not a show-off, doesn't wear clothing to elicit stares from men, and in fact, is quite a prude (her words, and I don't disagree). But something in her requires validation from men. Old, young, fat, bald, doesn't matter.

I admit I do sort of check up on her from time to time. Nothing totally crazy, but FB and email checks (if she leaves them open), that sort of thing. Hate having to do that though, but lessons learned from my previous marriage (in which I didn't ever check up on or question anything, ever).

This site has taught me that it's necessary sometimes, and there's really nothing wrong with it.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

alexm said:


> This is neither here, nor there, and I'm not trying to thread-jack, but your more in depth description of the how's and where's describes the situation with my ex-wife to a "T".
> 
> It was the same thing with her - band fan site, he a long-time member, she looking for pre-sale tickets, fan-club benefits, etc. Both of them being slightly older than the demographic there. She hit him up first, as they were around the same age, and he was (is?) also a musician with a YouTube channel that was popular amongst the fans of this band (cover songs, etc.) So a lot in common for her to reach out first and heap praise on him. Not to mention she was able to see what he looked like because of his videos.
> 
> ...


That really is crazy, what are the odds? I am sorry how it turned out for you. There but for the grace of God, go I.

I think this situation was not uncommon on the forum my wife joined. I posted one email above where she asks other guy about 2 other women he is corresponding with on the forum. Overall, there were 8 different women my wife was jealous of, or at least concerned with, that this other guy was involved with at the same time as my wife. When I was younger we had a name for his type, maybe a "hipster," but he was the "cool" "know-it-all" "long-time" member who would post with the "I have spoken" tone, when opining on what was the best concert or best version of a song, the kind of guy my wife would roll her eyes at in real life.

Also, there were other guys who would send my wife private messages, what someone here referred to as "fishing" maybe. So I am assuming it goes on a lot.


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## long_done (Jun 5, 2014)

Wow read this entire thread.

Like you Joe I would have reacted the very same way you did. I do not tolerate a WS at all, I am very secure in my own self and I am also a pretty independent guy.

However, since that happened and you decided to reconcile, I think she has done everything she can to make it up to. Women can stray, but she's proven that she can make it right. She's doing things that most men would only dream of, to make it up to you.

My opinion is that you try to get over this, and have a happy life with her. In the back of the mind, always "trust but verify" to keep her on her toes so she does not slip back into this again.

Best of luck.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Just Joe said:


> I really love reading your posts. I'm not much of a reader, I can't remember the last time I read a book. But if you wrote a book, I definitely would read it. You have a knack for getting your point across, but in an entertaining way.


Thanks for the compliments. The only book I've ever had published was a book on tactics. MMSLP is a quick read and the guy is humorous.



Just Joe said:


> I am aware of the player/game type stuff, it's a little after my time, I already was married I think when a lot of that stuff became popular. I do remember reading some articles about it a long time ago. That's what you're referring to, right?


I'm probably older than you, but female attraction is the same now as it was in the Bible; a source of very old and still very true observations about who women are attracted to and how far they will go to get the man they want (married or not).



Just Joe said:


> It seems good to me now with my wife, the attraction seems there, so I don't want to try anything different right now.
> But you do have a certain way of getting your point across, I'm sure I would enjoy reading it even if I happened to disagree with it, so let me know if you think I'm doing it wrong.


It sounds to me like you're doing everything right. Sex on demand is why men get married in the first place. However, it's always a good idea to understand how the car you're driving operates under the hood. The MMSLP book is kind of like an owner's manual on how to keep your ride purring. It's not really about the sex, it's about keeping her sexual motor running smoothly, by understanding her CPU programming and using that knowledge to keep both of you even happier with the marriage.

I don't agree with all of it, but I agree with most of it of what I read in there on the nature of the beast. I still haven't read the second half of the book (MAP on getting more sex) and I'm not sure I will (I usually have a number of books going at once and little time to read them), but the first part alone is well worth recommending to any guy.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Just Joe said:


> No, I didn't look it up at all, just hovered my mouse over the link. The other stuff Machiavelli wrote about negging/teasing I thought was player/game stuff, I guess that's why I thought the book was too.


Negging is just the modern geek's term for what we used to call teasing for about the last 5000 years. When girls do it, it's one form of what the youngsters call a "sh!t test." If they start putting you down and you don't have the proper reaction, it will kill the attraction they were feeling toward you.

Don't get wrapped around the terminology, it's the age old concept that is important.


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## Wanabeelee (Sep 6, 2011)

Just Joe said:


> . I almost did walk I think if she didn't collapse like she did I probsbly would have been out the door.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know where you are coming from on this one. When my balls finally dropped and I was booting my WW from our home, she attempted to take several bottles of pills with her to the hotel I was leaving her at. Suicide watch and two days in a mental hospital at her side I decided to let her stay.


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> *All that is an attraction builder. It's just like the first time I met my wife, she started sh!t testing me by being obnoxious and "negging/teasing," because she was very attracted to me. I just turned all my attention to the girl she was with, even though I was there to meet her (future wife). She doesn't even remember being obnoxious, but she does remember me turning away from her, and that increased the attraction.*
> 
> Your wife was getting a need met, here. Inappropriately, but it's one you should be capitalizing on for your mutual benefit.
> 
> I highly recommend you get this book. Despite the name, it's about how to keep your wife highly attracted to you over the course of a marriage by appealing to her limbic reproduction system. Sounds highbrow, but when you read it, you'll realize you already knew the score at some subconscious level. It is not PC, though. The main thing guys have a hard time doing is getting their wife off the pedestal. That won't be a problem for you, since yours already jumped off her pedestal.


Time out for a little story about attraction: Mach's post about his wife (bolded part above) brings back memories of when I was single and didn't have a clue. Well, sometimes I stumbled into things, but couldn't connect the dots at the time.

Years ago, I met a girl, who I'll call Lori, who I asked out on a date, but then later met her roommate, Kathy, who I really hit it off with. We shared some great laughs in front of Lori. I suppose the attraction was obvious. Lori accused me of being attracted to Kathy.

So I cooled it with Lori for a few days and then received a letter (pre-email days--yes, I'm older!) from Lori telling me how much she's attracted to me and wants to get serious with me. After only two dates.

I remember being puzzled why Lori was crazy about me when I was somewhat brusque with her. Just one of many real-life examples that now, years later, finally make sense.


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## Tabitha (Jun 17, 2014)

I've been lurking here for almost a year, ever since I found my husband spending his evenings sending "inappropriate emails" to female friends. One was from a friend from his teenaged years who found him after her divorce. She definitely wanted something more from him (we live 1000 miles from her) just like she did when they were teens and she chased him, finally giving up hope of having a relationship with him and then stopped writing him altogether (they ended up at different universities). 

I never got to see any of those emails they exchanged over 2-3 yrs because when I saw several in his inbox one time and asked to read one, he immediately deleted them. RED FLAG, right? However, I'm pretty sure he stopped writing her immediately because when he changed employment, and hence email address, he didn't share his new contact info with her. He said the reason he deleted the emails was that he was afraid I'd "misconstrue" what she was writing about. My guess is he found it nice to get his ego stroked by her but then got scared when he realized it could threaten his marriage if I found out. 

However, later (after her) he was also writing to a couple of other former female co-workers. I did catch on what was going on with him on the computer, "networking" late almost every night and decided to look at his email, which I'd never done before. I found a couple of inappropriate ones--nothing too bad, but still shouldn't have been written. 

Around the same time, something else unrelated happened that landed him in the ER. Long story, short: the SSRI (anti-depressant) he'd been put on for anxiety was causing many side-effects that we didn't realize were related to the drug. It happened so subtly, that I just thought my previously really good husband had slid into "jerkdom". He also had started to drink way too much. We never, ever realized the drug was the thing that precipitated the drinking (among other, physical symptoms) AND the "lack of judgement" and "LOSS OF THE ABILITY TO INHIBIT" himself--even when alcohol wasn't involved (but by night, it usually was involved). 

We immediately started weaning him off it, going VERY slowly (from my research, I realized that to avoid causing him problems after having been on this brain-altering drug for 8 years, we needed to go WAY slower than doctors recommend). 

Anyway, at about halfway off the meds, he came to me and said he could feel that a fog was lifting from his brain and he could feel again. He said he hadn't realized how he couldn't feel any emotion before (on his full dose). He brought up the emails from about 6 months before and said that it simply wasn't him--"it's not who I am." And I believe it because what I read simply wasn't him. He's not a needy type guy at all, but he was practically begging them to write to him (and not sex either--he was just missing the work place since he'd been downsized out of a job)--"love you, miss you, please write me" type requests. Only 1 was definitely, overly flirty (of course, I have no idea about other emails I did not see) AND he was hoping to meet her for lunch when she came in town for a visit, but due to what I'd just read ("you're so gorgeous......the desire of all men"), I put the skids on that unless other old co-workers were going to be there, too (they weren't, so he didn't go). 

He just couldn't see that he'd crossed a boundary. If he did--like when we argued about it upon my discovery of it--it just didn't matter to him.

Why I'm writing now is because you mentioned in one post about brain chemicals changing how you think and feel. THAT'S IT! Maybe not with everyone, but especially someone who IS on a brain-altering drug or maybe even a woman whose hormones have started to change. Maybe it makes them a little more susceptible to these types of temptations, especially if it can make them feel "good" or "better". 

Like you, I can't just let this go. My own hormones are going crazy right now (just hit 50) and this was hard to deal with (AND I think that hormones are the reason I'm gnawing on this like a dog with a bone). My husband doesn't understand why I can't just drop it out of my mind like he has. Another problem with his particular drug is that many people who were adversely affected like he was, is his memory about anything stressful that happened during the years of the drug's use, is wiped out. I know that for a fact because there's things he doesn't remember about his mom's dying and death....about the family dramas going on, some including him and his lack of visiting her (he would never have been this way pre-drug as he LOVED his mom with all his heart). 

I know I should drop it and face forward--looking towards that which I DO want and not looking backwards at that which I do NOT want. It's hard, though--I have this insatiable desire to know what was going on. I realize I will probably never hear it from him because of his fuzzy memory (and yes, some is probably selective amnesia), but that doesn't stop my feelings and thoughts.....

I think I finally figured it out, though--for myself, I absolutely hate it that there are a few women out there that think he wanted them. That he flirted with to the point that it probably made them think he would've liked an affair with them. At least with the "you're so gorgeous" one. (The only reason for not suspecting something along the lines of physical affairs is because of one of the worst, and usual, side-effects of the drug). And with the friend from long ago--he said he finally realized that she wanted more, but he still didn't tell her to stop writing (she was telling him how she'd planned on losing her virginity to him way back when on a "date" she'd asked him to, but he wouldn't stay the night--at her university). I'm as mad at this woman, too, for having set her sights on my husband, her old, unrequited love that she was gunning for after her divorce. I realize this "obsession" in my head is only hurting me, but still....it's there, and it's valid in my head: there are other women out there that have pieces to the puzzle that I don't have. I hate not knowing.

So, maybe you hate it that this man thought he might could've had YOUR wife? 

Sorry, I don't have any suggestions of solutions since I'm still seeking some myself. My heart goes out to you, though, because at least I don't have the memory of reading the types of emails you have running around inside your head. 

Good luck to you!


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Just Joe said:


> Now she is so attentive to me that I feel like I'm taking advantage of her.


You go ahead and take advantage. Nothing wrong with it after your spouse has cheated. As long as you are doing your part in the marriage, there is nothing wrong with enjoying that which she should be happy to do.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Just Joe said:


> For example, she claims *it was just *a fantasy that she got caught up in, that she never had any intention of leaving me.


I hate it when things like that come out of a cheater's mouth.

"it was just" as if to say, "oh, all it was" "no big deal".




> And none of the emails I read ever had any detail about either of them planning on doing that. Still, she was writing stuff about soulmates, not those exact words, and about her love for him, and meeting up someday.


And the above kind of puts a dent in her "it was just a fantasy" bunk.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

long_done said:


> Wow read this entire thread.
> 
> Like you Joe I would have reacted the very same way you did. I do not tolerate a WS at all, I am very secure in my own self and I am also a pretty independent guy.
> 
> However, since that happened and you decided to reconcile, I think she has done everything she can to make it up to.



eh, yes and no.

If she wants to make it up to him she needs to stop using phrases like, "it was just" or "all it was" and quite blowing smoke up his arse about losing her way. Because the truth is she did what she did because she wanted this other guy. Regardless of the fact that the distance prevented them from making it physical, if she was alone with him in a hotel room, she would have gone for it.

Now she doesn't have to tell him this. Just needs to stay away from the smoke blowing dialogue and just tell him "I f'd up, I have no excuse and will do whatever it takes to make it up to you"


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

vellocet said:


> eh, yes and no.
> 
> If she wants to make it up to him she needs to stop using phrases like, "it was just" or "all it was" and quite blowing smoke up his arse about losing her way. Because the truth is she did what she did because she wanted this other guy. Regardless of the fact that the distance prevented them from making it physical, if she was alone with him in a hotel room, she would have gone for it.
> 
> Now she doesn't have to tell him this. Just needs to stay away from the smoke blowing dialogue and just tell him "I f'd up, I have no excuse and will do whatever it takes to make it up to you"



Some very good comments, right on the money.

Keep in mind though that this was 2 years ago, so it doesn't come up that often, and although she has never admitted it was anything other than fantasy, she is well aware that I don't believe it, like you said, I believe if they had met, if he had funds and means, they would have had sex and she maybe even would have left me. There is no way of knowing what is and was in her head, but judging by actions, I don't think she could fake it for over 2 years of being together since I caught her. If the subject comes up now, all she does is apologize, she never says "it was just a fantasy", she just apologizes and promises to make it up to me for the rest of my life. I posted one of her recent emails to me when I lashed out at her one day when I was headed out the door for work. If you look at that, that's what she says now.

For a long time I didn't mind letting her fawn all over me, really I still do enjoy it, it's just that it seems out of place in this "era", it seems like more of a throwback to a previous time (I'm guessing from what I see in movies).

I am not a monster, I don't keep her in the marriage through "threats" of leaving, but I do let her know what I am and am not willing to tolerate, and I also let her know that if we were to divorce, I would provide for her and the kids, no matter what. Hell, I don't know if I really would have a choice anyway the way the divorce process and divorce courts work. We rarely talk about these things now, but they were discussed in the weeks after I confronted her. I have absolutely zero desire to stay with a wife who doesn't love me, who only is staying because she is afraid of the financial consequences, so I let her know that I would take care of her financially if we split up, that I would be as fair and reasonable as she was with the kids, and like I said, the courts probably would see to that anyway.

Since I started posting here, I have made a bit of progress I believe, I have put the "what ifs" out of my mind, because if you really think about it, our whole lives are a series of "what ifs" and truth be told my whole relationship with her, from the way I met her to the way we eventually wound up together, was just one "what if" after another. So I can live with the fortunate circumstance that their was a problem that could have turned out much worse than it did.

As far as the other guy, I don't give him much thought. If my wife ever does cheat again, it won't be with him. I left some stuff out about this guy, I did look into this guy in the first days after I discovered this thing and found out some stuff about him, stuff my wife didn't know about, and shared it with my wife. Feels funny to say this as I type this on the internet, but one of my favorite things to say to my wife and kids when they tell me what someone wrote on the internet is that _"everyone's a liar on the internet."_ My wife told some outright lies to him, and a lot of lies of omission and, to put it kindly, "exaggerations." Nothing like his lies of omission, though.

What is still lingering in my head now, maybe time will help, or maybe it never really goes away, is the feeling that I posted early in this thread:

_"something has been lost. I still respect my wife, maybe not as much as I used to, but there is something more intangible that has been lost. I don't know the word for it but it's like I used to think she's always been there for me, through thick and thin, every single time and now I think she's always been there for me, well except for that once. Maybe that's a little too dramatic, but is there a word for that feeling?"_


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Just Joe,

If you read all these stories on TAM you can begin to feel like woman are like a puppy dog, they will go home with the first person that offers them food.


The truth is that sometimes people are weak and sometimes vulnerable and sometimes selfish and sometimes all this at the same time.


You learned something about your wife, and you wish it wasn’t so. It’s your new reality, and vigilance is your new normal. I think one of the lessons of Tam is that you have to protect your marriage this way.



Up until now she had the benefit of the doubt, well there is no doubt anymore, but she may have learned a lesson too, perhaps become a better person. That is up to you to decide.



IDK but you may be operating at a normal level of watchfulness now. Think about it, perhaps it will feel more normal in that context.

It sounds like you both realize that it is worth it to invest in the relationship. That is not a bad place to be.

You have evolved as a couple so to speak.

I wish you well.
Take care!


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Just Joe said:


> What is still lingering in my head now, maybe time will help, or maybe it never really goes away, is the feeling that I posted early in this thread:
> 
> _"something has been lost. I still respect my wife, maybe not as much as I used to, but there is something more intangible that has been lost. I don't know the word for it but it's like I used to think she's always been there for me, through thick and thin, every single time and now I think she's always been there for me, well except for that once. Maybe that's a little too dramatic, but is there a word for that feeling?"_


I think time does help, but it doesn't erase. I'm sure if I had stayed with my wife that I'd be able to function day to day without her infidelities haunting me. But they WILL haunt me from time to time, I'm sure of that. They don't now because she is no longer significant to me.

But for you, since you want to give it a shot, I think it will get better. But I am also sure that once in a blue moon you will think about it and you'll be boiling on the inside. You'll just choose to suppress it.

So only you can decide if you can live with that. Nothing will ever be the same, but that doesn't mean that it can't at least get a little better for you.

But SHE has to be an integral part of that. She needs to be an open book, for starters, and never do anything that would cause you suspicion.


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## sunrisesunset (Jun 13, 2014)

I feel like this story mirrors my own in a way. My husband was chatting it up with an ex since 2009 until 2014 when I stumbled upon the harsh reality of his infidelity. However he did go one more and make it a physical encounter as well. Once but once is always enough isn't it. And his actions now mirror your wifes, where I not need ask anything. And i feel the same way.. like I'm taking advantage, but i know I'm not because I constantly try to do things he insists on doing. I guess my question is, did you ever get over the "TIME." I think in my situation if the affair happened a month ago or 6 months ago it might be easier to deal with. But it started in 2009 when my daughter was only 9 months old and went on until this year. I guess I'd just like to know if you somehow dealt with the time a certain way or had any advice.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Just Joe said:


> Things are going well with us now except I have a lot of little things that come up and nag at me. I am good at putting them out of my head and not thinking about them, but they never really get resolved. I'm not sure there is a resolution that will be to my satisfaction. I'm sure I will not leave my wife over them and I don't know if I posted before, but my sons' welfare and happiness play heavily into any decisions I make.
> 
> For example, she claims it was just a fantasy that she got caught up in, that she never had any intention of leaving me. And none of the emails I read ever had any detail about either of them planning on doing that. Still, she was writing stuff about soulmates, not those exact words, and about her love for him, and meeting up someday. 3 years of this on and off. What bothers me is, what if this guy, instead of being an unemployed loser, had the funds to come and visit? Instead of being somewhat uninterested in pursuing it further, what if he was pushing to meet my wife, what if he asked her to leave me for him? Would she still have chosen to throw him under the bus when I confronted?


Everything starts off as a fantasy, it doesn't have to be someone thousands of miles away, you could have a fantasy of the hot chick two doors down from you. It's taking that step from what's in the head to making it a reality be it emailing, phone calls or face time.

She cheated for a reason, you know this, that's why it's not sitting well as well as the fact you now see her as duplicitous. You saw what she wrote and how she felt (make no bones about it, fantasy or not she projected very real feelings into those emails that's what heightened the excitement) and yet she was probably sweet and normal around you.

Look she maybe very sorry. Maybe the can of subliminal whoop ass you opened lifted her from her dream world. She knows you won't stand for it, but you have to be sure what she's doing is real not rugsweeping.

There may come a point when she tires of being nice and teeters close to the edge of resentment, then all the past reasons why she cheated could come back to haunt you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Joe,
I agreed with everything you wrote in this thread up til the bit about you only staying at least initially because of the kids. 

You are staying with your wife because you love her. In a crisis, one factor in your choice not to leave her was the kids.


QUOTE=Just Joe;9186530]Neither of us has had any counseling. I'm not from the type of family or background where people seek counseling for these types of things. If I need to, I can talk to my brothers or sisters. She is from a similar background. I haven't told anyone about the affair, besides sending the certified letter to the other guy's wife and calling the other guy's supervisor. I don't think she told anyone about it either. I haven't read any books about it and I don't think she has either. I have looked on the internet for some guidance, but there's a lot of conflicting info out there and I basically just have been following what I think is right. 

I have no methods in place to verify she isn't communicating with other man. I always had passwords to everything and initially after I found out I did check up on her from time to time, asked her to give me her phone, checked her facebook, checked her emails, etc., asked who each person on her facebook was, noticed she had a lot of people, both men and women, on there who she didn't know in real life and told her it made me uncomfortable and the next day they were deleted. To be honest, it made me feel like a wuss, checking up on her like that and telling her that, like I was somehow afraid she would love one of those people more than me, it made me feel like a bit of an insecure whiner. It made me feel weak and I didn't like it. I won't do it again.

If she wants to do it again, that's up to her, if I'm not enough for her then I wish she would because I have absolutely ZERO desire to stay with someone who doesn't love me, is just staying for reputation or for money or even for kids, which conflicts me a little because I sometimes feel like I only really stayed, at least initially, for the kids. I do look at her email and facebook every so often, a little more closely than I did pre-affair, but it's few and far between at this point. If she wanted to cheat again, she is a very intelligent woman, I doubt she would use a method I have access to again after what happened last time.[/QUOTE]


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Hi, Joe,

I can relate to your story in many, many ways. I've been there too. I think you and your W are going to be OK. But there is lasting damage and scarring, which will surface as nuisances from time to time.

_"something has been lost. I still respect my wife, maybe not as much as I used to, but there is something more intangible that has been lost. I don't know the word for it but it's like I used to think she's always been there for me, through thick and thin, every single time and now I think she's always been there for me, well except for that once. Maybe that's a little too dramatic, but is there a word for that feeling?"_

I don't know if there is a single word for this, but I would explain it as not feeling that your heart is 100 percent safe in her hands anymore. You have to watch your back even with her now.

The Umbrella Episode: You find yourself not believing her even when she is telling the truth. I find myself in the same situation from time to time, but I do not feel bad about it. This is the price she has paid for years of deception. Part of why betrayal is the gift that keeps on giving.

_All those emails, hundreds if not thousands, over the course of a couple of weeks after finding them I had read every last one and what struck me is that she not once ever said anything bad about me. Or good. She never talked about me at all. The only thing she would say is stuff like "you can call me later between 6 and 8, my husband is going out with the boys and I will have privacy." The ONLY things she ever said about me was something like, "my husband is a good man but he just doesn't get it." When I showed her that one she told me she didn't remember it and doesn't know what she meant by it._

These little unexplained gems are very hard to neutralize. Of course she knows what she meant by it, and the fact that she won't say is gnawing at the back of your mind. I got a lot of those too (shoulder shrugs mostly) for years until I finally just blew up (a scene which, like yours, ended with her on the floor crying). When you feel like something is wrong but you can't quite put your finger on it, you probably had one of these unanswered questions flit through your brain.

As I said, these things are nuisances rather than major problems now. You and your marriage sound pretty solid, all things considered. Congratulations!


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

<<All those emails, hundreds if not thousands, over the course of a couple of weeks after finding them I had read every last one and what struck me is that she not once ever said anything bad about me. Or good. She never talked about me at all. The only thing she would say is stuff like "you can call me later between 6 and 8, my husband is going out with the boys and I will have privacy." The ONLY things she ever said about me was something like, "my husband is a good man but he just doesn't get it." When I showed her that one she told me she didn't remember it and doesn't know what she meant by it.>>

That's because they don't really WANT to think about their spouses they are betraying. If they avoid that, they can keep the fantasy going and believe no one is getting hurt.

When I accidentally found all the texts from my FHW's OW on his phone, I read one where she had asked about me and how long he was going to stay in the marriage with how he felt, he told her he would not talk about me and was not ready to leave the marriage. He shut her down, but he had to have said something to lead her to believe he had a reason to feel unhappy and justified in what he was doing, so something was said, and more than once. 
It's kind of infuriating to be talked about and judged by someone who has never met you when you know they are only getting 50% of the story. I mean , what AP is going to tell the other AP the whole truth? They would look ridiculous, and it's all about looking good for the fantasy. 
Sometimes I too feel like I might be taking advantage of what has transpired in our marriage with his cheating, nothing horrible, but I DO feel somewhat like I deserve to feel this way. I don't hold back from him but if I seem less than 100% sure of him and he feels that, I can't help it, and he knows it.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

PamJ said:


> I don't hold back from him but if I seem less than 100% sure of him and he feels that, I can't help it, and he knows it.


There is no way either he or you for that matter should expect you to be 100 percent sure of him any longer.


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

<<There is no way either he or you for that matter should expect you to be 100 percent sure of him any longer.>>

And he understands that, it's just that sometimes I feel the quandry of being all in for the marriage but knowing there will always be that little something different. It will always be there now. I don't want it to exploit it or use it as an excuse not to be fully invested in it, but, I don't know. 
I see both sides of everything, always have, and now sometimes I feel guilty for not being able to forget, even though I can't be expected to. And people are always telling you that you have to forgive to heal, and I don't know how you know if you really have or not.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Joe,
> I agreed with everything you wrote in this thread up til the bit about you only staying at least initially because of the kids.
> 
> You are staying with your wife because you love her. In a crisis, one factor in your choice not to leave her was the kids.


I don't think love would have stopped me from leaving her that first night I found out or on some days in the first few weeks afterward.

I was very angry that night that I confronted. The more she tried to apologize and explain the angrier I got. I was ready to walk out the door. There were a lot of emotions. Anger and betrayal. I wanted to hurt her, to exact some revenge, to make her feel as bad as I did, and my natural instinct was to walk out the door or somehow reject her as badly as I felt rejected, to verbally attack her for her lack of character, for her being a hypocrite (about hating cheaters, about loving me), for risking our family, for risking the kids having both parents every day, and for three years she pursued the other guy, I emphasized the three years, plus I had given her a letter saying how I wanted to do some different things to bring us closer and have more fun together about a week earlier which she wholeheartedly embraced, and she had given her little nighty-night email to the other guy just the night before, plus how I caught her, she didn't know enough to delete her sent emails, which I was saying how stupid could you be, how blind and how much of a fool am I, how did she think I felt that she pursued such a loser, couldn't she even find somebody halfway decent to cheat on me with, maybe I'm not the greatest guy in the world, but to do this to me with some guy who has been unemployed for over three years, who she had to send $700 bucks of my money so he could pay his rent, how big a liar and a fraud she was. I was viciously ridiculing her nonstop and working myself up and telling her come on I'll put you on the plane to him myself. She was crying harder and harder and then she collapsed into a sobbing fetal position and didn't seem like she could breathe and I didn't know what to do. The kids were asleep in their bedrooms. I calmed down after that and stopped talking and she started to catch her breath and regain a little bit of composure.

In the days and weeks after I had some days where I got really angry but pretty much held it in. Sometimes I ripped into her after the kids were in bed. Covered the same ground a bunch of times. I think I would have left her on some of those days, except I would look at or think about my kids and decide to stay for one more day or a few more days. I guess there was love for my wife, but there also was a lot of anger and hurt, and if not for the kids, I'm pretty sure the anger and hurt would have won out and I would have left, at least temporarily.

When I type something like this, by myself in the living room while my wife is in the bedroom, I feel weak for letting her get away with it, for staying and putting up with it, for not ending it. Then I think of my kids, then I go into the bedroom with my wife and she says or does something affectionate or sexual and the bad feelings pass. I'd think about it less if not for this forum, though I have realized some things, some things have become clearer to me, from posting here.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

Philat said:


> I would explain it as not feeling that your heart is 100 percent safe in her hands anymore. You have to watch your back even with her now.
> 
> The Umbrella Episode: You find yourself not believing her even when she is telling the truth.


I do feel safe that she won't cheat, I don't feel like I have to watch my back, and I do believe what she tells me now. I never doubt her at this point. This is in large part because for over two years she has re-gained my trust. But it also is in some part due to the fact that I don't care as much if I lose her as I did before she cheated. I had never considered it prior to finding out about her cheating, now I have considered it quite a bit over the past two years, so I am more comfortable with the idea.

To use a sports analogy, her won-loss record was perfect before she cheated. She was undefeated. It's like she was a baseball pitcher whose record was 20-0 before she cheated. Now she's like a pitcher whose record is 20-1. That first loss is tough to take, the one that ruins perfection. The next loss after that is just another loss.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Just Joe said:


> I do feel safe that she won't cheat, I don't feel like I have to watch my back, and I do believe what she tells me now. I never doubt her at this point. This is in large part because for over two years she has re-gained my trust. But it also is in some part due to the fact that I don't care as much if I lose her as I did before she cheated. I had never considered it prior to finding out about her cheating, now I have considered it quite a bit over the past two years, so I am more comfortable with the idea.


I may have missed it, since I skimmed the thread, but I assume you monitored all activity and she rebuilt trust with you? If so, great. This was an online/telephone LTA and you worked thru it.




Just Joe said:


> To use a sports analogy, her won-loss record was perfect before she cheated. She was undefeated. It's like she was a baseball pitcher whose record was 20-0 before she cheated. Now she's like a pitcher whose record is 20-1. That first loss is tough to take, the one that ruins perfection. The next loss after that is just another loss.


In other words, she fell off that pedestal you had her on.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

lordmayhem said:


> I may have missed it, since I skimmed the thread, but I assume you monitored all activity and she rebuilt trust with you? If so, great. This was an online/telephone LTA and you worked thru it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I monitored what I could for a few weeks - her phone, facebook, the computer, keylogger. I saw no signs. After a few weeks, monitoring fell off pretty drastically. We are not with each other 24/7 and there are too many ways for her to communicate with him if she wanted to. Monitoring might make you feel better in the short term, but it's no way to live, and if you give it any thought there's really no way you could stop two people from communicating secretly with each other if they really wanted to unless you spent every minute of every day with them. She could use the computer at her parents or she could use a burner phone or she could go to the library or a thousand other ways. She was not computer savvy before but I'm sure she wised up a lot since being caught. It was stupid the way she got caught, but she is not stupid, she would learn from her mistakes. I'm sure if she wanted to contact him she could find a way to do it without me knowing.

To this day she says there was absolutely no contact with other guy after I confronted her, but I don't believe her. I think they must have found a way to contact each other at least one last time. Three years of communication, although there were some large gaps during those three years, is not going to just end cold turkey. It's possible that they didn't contact each other after that, but based on my common sense and reading here, it's not likely.

I am not going to monitor her again, if she wants to cheat she will find a way. That's not to say that I don't go on her phone and look in her email, I always did, even when she was cheating, I always had all passwords, and I would use her stuff out of convenience or if I was looking for something I knew she had, like a contact or an email from the kids' school, it's just that I never was looking for anything before, what are the odds that I would look at her stuff like that for three years and never look at the sent email or, if I did, not notice anything? She never protected her phone or computer, always left them lying around.

It's like my eyes were closed before, they are open now, so I can't help but look around a little when I go into her phone or email or facebook to look for something else. I used her phone when we were out somewhere last weekend but I didn't look around, though now if I see an unfamiliar name or number I will look whereas in the past I wouldn't give it a second thought.

I am not a big fan of monitoring, it made me feel weak and insecure, and I'm not going to keep on doing something that makes me feel bad about myself. The way she has acted the past two years I really don't believe she continued contact in any meaningful way.

My older son is a teenager now, he has become a bit of a computer wiz, he takes them apart and puts them together, he will help us if we have any problems, he runs diagnostic type stuff, all uncles and aunts and cousins call for his help when there are computer problems, and you know computer problems are fairly common. He found the keylogger on my wife's computer a while back and removed it. Of course he thought it was there to catch him or his younger brother doing stuff they shouldn't.

As far as her falling off the pedestal, I am not sure I ever had her on the pedestal. She was not perfect, I never thought she was, but her loyalty was perfect.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

All I can say is trust your gut, not her words. After my Dday1 (wife's cyber affair) she said all the right things, my monitoring turned up nothing. But I still felt a disconnect. I couldn't put my finger on it. 

We did MC for a year. After a while I all but stopped my monitoring. I still felt a disconnect, but I thoughts yen there was more to the cyber affairs than she was telling me.

Eventually she slipped up and there was a dday2. Turns out she has a Long term affair and at least 1 other OM. This had been going on prior to Dday1 and she continued it during our false R. 

I'm not saying that this is what your wife is doing. I just point out what happened to me. And advise you to believe what your gut is telling you.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Just Joe



> When I type something like this, by myself in the living room while my wife is in the bedroom, I feel weak for letting her get away with it, for staying and putting up with it, for not ending it. Then I think of my kids, then I go into the bedroom with my wife and she says or does something affectionate or sexual and the bad feelings pass. I'd think about it less if not for this forum, though I have realized some things, some things have become clearer to me, from posting here.


You are not alone in feeling this way.

Here is a piece that describes IMO how you are feeling. I hope it helps you. I found it enlightening....

http://www.emotionalaffair.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/All-About-Forgiveness.pdf

HM

"Ever associated forgivenes​s with a big price tag?"
by Rick Reynolds


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

happyman64 said:


> Just Joe
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, that was really good. Thank you for that.


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

http://www.emotionalaffair.org/wp-co...orgiveness.pdf

That was a very good piece on forgiveness. I struggle with this every day just about. I think I have forgiven on some level, I had to to continue in the marriage. I strive to find the good, to count the good times, not the bad, to see the good in him and accept his weaknesses, but 15 months after DD2 I am not sure I have totally forgiven.

I like the part where it said make forgiveness the first priority and reconciliation optional, but I'm not sure exactly how to do that. I don't hold it over his head or bring it up in arguments about other things. I don't think we've even discussed it in months now. I want to fight fairly and not use it as an excuse to punish him more.

I want to appreciate that he is trying to do right by me, but there are times when I think he is still getting away with something and I have lost something here.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Just Joe said:


> To use a sports analogy, her won-loss record was perfect before she cheated. She was undefeated. It's like she was a baseball pitcher whose record was 20-0 before she cheated. Now she's like a pitcher whose record is 20-1. That first loss is tough to take, the one that ruins perfection. The next loss after that is just another loss.


See, I don't think that being a faithful spouse (or expecting your spouse to be faithful) is a matter of perfection--it is normal, routine, expected. Expecting your spouse to adhere to his/her vows is not putting them on a pedestal, as you say Joe. So if they violate those vows it is not going from perfect to imperfect--we are all imperfect from the get-go. It is going from normal to failed.

From this standpoint I think a more apt sports analogy would be the pitcher who gives up a grand slam with his team up by three runs in the bottom of the ninth in game 7 of the World Series--epic, season-destroying fail.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Just Joe*
> I feel weak for letting her get away with it



What you have done seems like strength rather than weakness.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Just Joe*
> "something has been lost. I still respect my wife, maybe not as much as I used to, but there is something more intangible that has been lost. I don't know the word for it but it's like I used to think she's always been there for me, through thick and thin, every single time and now I think she's always been there for me, well except for that once. Maybe that's a little too dramatic, but* is there a word for that feeling?"*




*That feeling is the feeling of LOSS* because you had the security that she would NEVER replace you with another man, even temporarily.

Your wife took part of her emotions and sexual excitement that should be only for you and gave it to the OM. IOW she replaced you in some very deep emotional areas, with another man.


What has been lost?

1	Respect

2	Security that your wife would always be 100% loyal to you and never replace you in any way with another man.

3	But it also is in some part due to the fact that *I don't care as much if I lose her *as I did before she cheated


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

To me both analogies are off. Your examples are of a bad pitch or a loss, it happens all of the time. These are within agreed upon rules. Yes, it sucks, but using the wrong pitch happens. Just like you may make a bad decision in a marriage, spending money you don't have, that looks bad initially, but it really is minor. 20-1 is great, getting to the World Series is great, a few bad pitches are within the framework. They still suck, but it happens.

A better analogy, to me, would be the Patriots. 5 Superbowl trips, continual playoff appearances, continual division championships, three Superbowl wins and ONE videotape scandal has tainted it all. Whenever they win, people grumble they are cheaters. When they lose people say Karma and they can't win without cheating. Why? Like a marriage they agreed to a specific rule, the rule was explained and then they were caught. Now, in the back of everyone's mind, right or wrong, the taint is still there. 


Your wife was great, still appears to be great, but she breached trust and it adds an entirely different level to the mistake.


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## Dreald (Aug 30, 2012)

Just Joe said:


> She had a 3-year affair on the internet and over the telephone. It started in 2009 and ended in 2012. Married 18 years when it started with two kids in grammar school. We live near NY, he lives in the Southwest. They met on an internet forum. He flirted with her, she jumped in with both feet. They wrote each other raunchy sex fantasy stories and emailed them to each other. She pursued him, wrote how she loved him, thought they were "of the same soul," he seemed to just be in it for the sex stuff. If she wrote "I love you" he would respond with "love ya too." All of this was done at 2-3 in the morning, probably 2-3 nights a week, I thought she was on Facebook connecting with old friends, that's what she told me when I asked. Like others have posted, she was the last person you thought would cheat, she HATED cheaters.
> 
> I found out because we always had each other's email passwords and she wasn't tech-savvy enough to delete the messages from the sent folder, she deleted the inbox and the trash, but not the sent mail. Looking through her email for something related to my son's school one late night, I stumbled upon the messages. I read them for a few hours, there were that many. It was clear that they had never met, but that she had wanted to.
> 
> ...



MGTOW -- you can remain married, but Dread Game can keep your wife's 'feelings' in check. Never make her feel as though you have no other options. Yes, you'll lose a lot in the divorce (hypergamy anyone?), but the price of freedom comes at a cost. 

Especially with the overwhelming bias our courts have in favor of your wife.


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## Tabitha (Jun 17, 2014)

Just Joe said:


> When I type something like this, by myself in the living room while my wife is in the bedroom, I feel weak for letting her get away with it, for staying and putting up with it, for not ending it. Then I think of my kids, then I go into the bedroom with my wife and she says or does something affectionate or sexual and the bad feelings pass. I'd think about it less if not for this forum, though I have realized some things, some things have become clearer to me, from posting here.


Read that again a few times. 

Our feelings come from our thinking. What you're thinking most of the time these days is about the EA, so your feelings stay "angry". When your mind is off the thinking about it and something good happens, you say yourself that "bad feelings pass". 

Thoughts lead to feelings. _Your thoughts_ are responsible for what you are feeling now, NOT your wife's actions. Your wife's EA actions are over and done with, but you're continuing to allow them to live in your head. She's not putting them there, YOU are. Only YOU can change those thoughts. She won't be able to jump through enough hoops to make you happy if you stay on this forum, writing about how badly you feel because what your mind is focused on is what's keeping you from healing. 

Maybe you feel you need to be punished by keeping yourself in this bad-feeling place? What are you getting out of it? Being a martyr? Feeling justified that you are better than she is? 

Decide what you want and start thinking from that desire. You want a happy marriage? Well, if you keep thinking about her EA, you're not in a happy marriage. Think about how kind/nice/good she's been lately and nurse THAT feeling. That's how you draw more of that to you. What we dwell on increases, so until you decide to stop and think something better, you're going to keep on getting more of the same old feelings of betrayal. 

You can't change what happened. You can't change her. The only thing you CAN change is your own thoughts, and thereby your feeling about it. 

Epictitus (sp?), an ancient philosopher once said something like this: We're not so much disturbed by the things that happen to us as we are by our thoughts about the things that happened to us. 

Now I just have to find a way to take my own advice! 

PS....your writing here about your marital issues--while not to a singular person with a name--is a bit similar to your wife emailing a guy with a name, getting "justification" in her life just as you are here getting justification for your current life's feelings. You're both typing words into a computer........... Hey--try it with each other?!?

Good luck!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think you kept your head when you found out - much more than most people do or would.

My own reaction to what you've recounted is that, if it were me in your position, one of the most damaging outcomes of the A would be a loss of respect for my spouse. It's a corollary of sorts of the Groucho Marx effect. You are now married to a woman who could have a years-long EA with an unemployed loser. You are committed to someone with that level of poor judgment and sophomoric behavior.

This would fundamentally change my image of my spouse & the change wouldn't be just about the betrayal of trust/vows. It would be about my own understanding of my spouse's integrity and intelligence. I would have to work hard to find the right respect for those things again.

I really think you've handled things with strength. Your Dday reaction is almost unique, in my opinion. It reminds me a bit of SomedayDig, who also took no cr*p when he discovered his WW's affair.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

Tabitha said:


> Read that again a few times.
> 
> Our feelings come from our thinking. What you're thinking most of the time these days is about the EA, so your feelings stay "angry". When your mind is off the thinking about it and something good happens, you say yourself that "bad feelings pass".
> 
> ...


You are right.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

You know what else? You need to stop feeling guilty for her actions and your feelings. You have distrust and it will lessen, but it'll never go back to your original trust. Stop trying to reconcile her attempt at appeasement as you using her or taking advantage. She messed up, she is earning back your trust and you need to go with the flow. As long as you aren't abusing her or using manipulative coercion it is all good. 

Have you talked to her about your feelings?


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Tabitha*
> You can't change what happened. You can't change her. The only thing you CAN change is your own thoughts, and thereby your feeling about it.




*Tabitha hit the nail right on the head!*



Joe

I assume that you had admiration, RESPECT, and security for your wife before the affair. I think that now you will have less. Maybe you can regain all the admiration, respect, and security that you had before the affair but I could not.


*In addition to what Tabitha said, I would like to add that you are now going to have to make up your mind that you are going to be content with less admiration, respect, and security than before the affair.* I now have somewhere between 80-90% of the admiration, respect, and security that I had prior to the affair and that means that I go from good to very good. The days of the GREAT admiration, respect, and security is over in our relationship.

I have been in R for over 25 years and the best that I can get is very good, no more greats. I have no complaints and life is good for me. I know that most of us have a propensity to want EXCELLENT (100%) but that is mostly in the movies and for a very short period. I have decided that I will be content with 80-90% and have done what Tabitha has suggested and I have a good life.


You may need a little bit more time but the 80-90% is contingent upon your wife being truly remorseful and you both taking the right steps forward. From what I have read I do think your wife is truly remorseful. 


Here is the bottom line for me and probably for you.

You both will have to accept that the great marriage with 100% admiration, respect and security are dead. Affairs have permanent consequences in most cases. However, if you and your wife take the right actions then you can have a very good marriage. In fact you can have a better relationship in some of the other areas than you did before the Affair. Much depends on you both doing what Tabitha said, making up your mind that you are going to accept reality, and work at doing the right things to build in all areas.


*My wife betrayed me but she is much more good than bad just like me. I suspect your wife is also much more good than bad. What do you think?*


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