# I can't win.



## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

We had a great week.
2 successful MC sessions in a row (2 weeks).
I owned my mistakes, didn't point fingers or blame him, put his needs first, tried to fill his love bank.
Yesterday---SO happy. SO hopeful. SO comfortable.

But I swear he just wants to sabotage:

we're out together, I'm cheerful, I'm happy, I want to show him something, he's cranky, wants to leave, wants me to hurry.
I get a little snippy, "geez, hold your horses" or something like that.

So we get in the car to go. I'm still cheerful.
He's silent. after 10 minutes I ask: "are you ok?"
he says "gee, funny you should ask." and gets all mad at me for snapping at him.
Then tells me I'm being self-centered.
???? this is VERY unlike him. 

So I apologize for snapping.
But then i say "you shouldve just told me what was wrong. I feel like you were testing me to see if I'd notice. I'm not a mind reader. I snapped because I thought you were bored and I just wanted us to have a nice day together."

but I'm not allowed to say any of this. He calls it "lecturing."
It sends him into a rage of:

blaming me
judging my feelings
equating my needs with weaknesses
refusing to understand my pov
accusing me of lecturing him
preaching at me what I "need to do"
telling me he won't bother being nice if I'm going to fail and "take a day off"

I feel hit in the gut. Partly because I had opened up, honestly admitted my faults, and I feel like in a moment of stress he used it against me.
Also because we were happy. Open. Honest. Good. Better. Comfortable.
It hurts harder when you fall from higher.

Im also confused because it's like he WANTS to keep the conflict. 
WANTS to push away peace.
That hurts.
After laying bare all my "ok, I need to work on..." in MC and at home, I feel kind of betrayed too.
Like he SEES the effort I make, and just stomps on it.
It makes me feel like I STILL can't trust him. 

It really feels like he just looked for a way to pick a fight with me and sabotage all the good we've been creating.
He definitely "fit tested" me, and I failed.
I shouldve just said "oh gee sorry honey," and left it at that.
I made the mistake of showing him how truly baffled I was.

We did talk about it. I don't know if it did any good.

I swear there's a part of him that wants the conflict, argument, and strife, wants to push me away, is terrified of really being close.

I have to stay cool, calm, in control, not react.
Not give in to that mind-boggling desire for conflict.

I thought I was doing the right thing this past week, and I still think I was.
I truly feel like he tested me and us, and I failed. We failed.
I truly feel like he wanted us to fail. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

There are people who will purposely sabotage things. My husband has been or can be like this still from time to time. 

I learned in counseling they do that because 1.) they are negative people anyway. 2.) In their minds when they feel things are going good, they get scared, they think something or someone else will mess things up anyway, so THEY go ahead and mess it up, because they think its gonna happen anyway,so they beat the other person to the punch. 

I know that may sound really odd, but it made since once our counselor explained it. My husband even admitted thats why he did it. His attitude towards things were, "why bother? Why try? Doesn't matter anyway", blah blah! See how that is very negative though process? They set themselves up and the other person to fall, because they think its gonna happen anyway. Things going good seem scary and unfamilar to them.

Its all about changing your attitude and the way you look at things. Another thing to is, you are ready to work on things. You are the one with the more positive outlook on things. He has yet to try to get a handle on that for himself. He more than likely figures, if you are happy and he is not, then he will try to bring you down to his level. Mission accomplished by him, the minute he gets under your skin. Then you both are back at square one. Also, part of it too, is him sabotaging things is also a habit, and its whats comfortable for him and it may be all he knows. Hopefully he will break that soon and be able move forward.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

AgentD said:


> In their minds when they feel things are going good, they get scared, they think something or someone else will mess things up anyway, so THEY go ahead and mess it up, because they think its gonna happen anyway,so they beat the other person to the punch.
> 
> They set themselves up and the other person to fall, because they think its gonna happen anyway. Things going good seem scary and unfamilar to them.


this sounds like him...his background, how it colors his view and interactions with me, etc.

this is why I see it as a test.
He set me up to do exactly what I've always done so it could be "my fault."
to be honest, I didn't prove him wrong---because I was freakin' baffled.

When we discussed it, he was like "this is how it's going to be for the rest of our life!!!!"
which I know neither of us wants. And it doesn't have to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> this sounds like him...his background, how it colors his view and interactions with me, etc.
> 
> this is why I see it as a test.
> He set me up to do exactly what I've always done so it could be "my fault."
> ...


When my husband would do that, and yes you're right, its like a test. I would ignore it. I would go about my business, I would continue to be cheerful if thats how I was truly feeling etc. I got to the point to where I was no longer gonna let his crappy negative attitude effect me. If he wanted to wallow in self pity or play mind games, he could do it by himself. He can't play the game if he has no one to play with. Eventually my husband backed off on doing that so much when he figured no matter what he did or said I wasn't bothered by it anymore. He still slips at times and reverts back to those ways, but I stand my ground. 

Alot of my husbands attitude and self sabotaging was a result of his upbringing. he came from a family of blaming others, and sabotaging things, it was a learned behavior for him.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

I have the exact same issues in my marriage.

I told my husband yesterday, it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. He keeps pushing and pushing at me like he wants me to leave, not be there so he can tell everyone "see, I told you she didn't love me, she left me when I needed her - see, I was right."

I don't get it either.

And my husband doesn't recognize my change either. I noticed that this week in a couple of instances and mentioned it last night.

I told him:

"You SEE me in a certain way. And no matter what I do or don't do, how I change or don't change, you don't see it, recognize it or acknowledge it. You continue to SEE me in a certain way you have in your mind - nothing I do is changing that."

And he said:

"You're right."

So, guess I'm screwed. Doesn't matter what I do/don't do, he either doesn't see it, refuses to see or acknowledge it and so things will continue to go round and round, with everything swept under the rug and nothing resolved.

I can't TALK to my husband either (and we've been together 27 years). He immediately gets defensive if I bring up any of the following:

- My needs
- My feeling of neglect
- My resentment at our sexless marriage
- His drinking
- Anything that has to do with me, that is not directly related to HIM

So I KNOW how you feel.

I feel the same way, it's as if he wants to sabotage things, wants the conflict, and wants to keep me at arms length.

Won't let himself get close, for any reason.

But, I do know, that if this keeps up - I may need to check out. I can't keep banging my head against the wall all by myself and that's what it feels like to me right now - that I'm in this marriage by myself and I didn't sign up for that. I wanted to be part of a team, but my team currently is "I" and not "we."

Maybe the people we were, 27 years ago, are no longer the people we "are" now and we don't need to be together anymore...I don't know, I just know that my marriage IS NOT what it used to be and not matter what I do, I can't get it back and it's heart-breaking for me.

Good luck, don't know what I can impart to help as I'm in the same situation.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> this sounds like him...his background, how it colors his view and interactions with me, etc.
> 
> this is why I see it as a test.
> He set me up to do exactly what I've always done so it could be "my fault."
> ...



Boy that sounds familiar - like I said, a self-fulfilling prophecy.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

AgentD said:


> When my husband would do that, and yes you're right, its like a test. I would ignore it. I would go about my business, I would continue to be cheerful if thats how I was truly feeling etc. I got to the point to where I was no longer gonna let his crappy negative attitude effect me. If he wanted to wallow in self pity or play mind games, he could do it by himself. He can't play the game if he has no one to play with. Eventually my husband backed off on doing that so much when he figured no matter what he did or said I wasn't bothered by it anymore. He still slips at times and reverts back to those ways, but I stand my ground.
> 
> Alot of my husbands attitude and self sabotaging was a result of his upbringing. he came from a family of blaming others, and sabotaging things, it was a learned behavior for him.


agentD, my H's upbringing is the same. And I think it has a lot to do with it.
Hopefully if I respond as you say you did, it will help. Yesterday I failed to do that.
In the moment, I don't see it for what it is, and I react instead and try to "fix."

MWIL, thanks for relating, hopefully venting was helpful to you even if you don't have the "solution."

today I got up and headed out the door before he woke up; I usually don't.
I just really don't want to be near him at the moment.
I feel like the wind was knocked out of my sails, but I know it'll do NO good to share that with him. It's not safe to.
Instead, I'm going to show the posture agentd described: positive 
Also cool, calm, unaffected. Which is why I had to get out of the house---much easier to fake that from a distance.

Thank you both for responding. Your support is helpful!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Exactly what I'm doing today.

Left for work and didn't wake him, etc.

Not going to call, will just do my job and then go home.

I'll either get the "freeze" or he'll act like nothing has happened.

Either way, I will remain upbeat and positive, all the while knowing that nothing got resolved and I still feel neglected and used.

Guess this is my life unless I choose to change it, which I'm not ready for at this time, but maybe he'll make the decision for me.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

"agentD, my H's upbringing is the same. And I think it has a lot to do with it.
Hopefully if I respond as you say you did, it will help. Yesterday I failed to do that.
In the moment, I don't see it for what it is, and I react instead and try to "fix."

Its so good that you realize it when you get like that though, and yes, it can be hard to not try and "fix" things. I think most of us are "fixers" by nature, especially when it comes to relationships. I try to tell myself, "every action has a reaction" and I will not react to what he is doing/saying, especially if I realize its negative or sabotaging.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

One of the things that hurts in those moments is that he tells me I'm NOT trying, NOT owning my mistakes, am MORE to blame and screwed up in the head than he is.

I know that's not true.

I also know I'm conscious to own my own part in our conflicts and not blame him entirely.

Guess we're still deeper in our cycle than it felt like in our happy moments.

Guess I need to be on guard in our happy moments, for "tests." (I don't think he tests consciously.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you know it's not true, work on THAT instead of getting him to be better. Work on stopping yourself in that instant where you want to go to your immediate reflexes. Put a rubber band on your wrist or some such, and each time you feel yourself spinning out of control, or recognize another trigger coming your way, snap it and _keep your mouth shut._

Stop the pattern.

There's an awesome book on that called Emotional Alchemy, and it teaches you how you're physically literally hardwired in your brain to do the same responses over and over again, and how you can stop it.

You are here learning, you have the power to change y'all's dynamics.


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## madimoff (Feb 17, 2010)

Creda, I know you've suggested it's possibly to do with your h's upbringing, or sabotaging, etc but when reading your original post (as usual thinking how similar it sounds to us!) I found myself wondering if it was as follows: 
You've been making valiant attempts to learn about yourself, learn about your (own) and your (joint) behaviours and issues of communication - so when something however little it might seem to others comes up which has previously been hard for the pair of you to deal with without conflict, you now have the means and strength to work your way through it: at very least more calmly than before, and with some understanding of what's happening.
Maybe he recognises your 'improvement' or strength, or whatever you choose to call it, and knows he's not got as far down the road as you and - more importantly if it's as similar to us as I think - he retains his 'prickles', 'niggles' and dislike of certain behaviours to which he, unlike possibly most people, is very sensitive. So he just reacts as he's always reacted
Maybe?


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

C...you're relatively new to counseling, and attempting to fix issues in your marriage. You've gotten (and continue to receive) great advice here. Keep hanging in there. Sometimes it's one step forward and two steps back, but you ARE having those "forward" moments. Stay firm in your resolve. I really believe y'all are going to make it, and come out on the other side with a great marriage, and the tools needed to keep it that way.

You're dragging him there kicking and screaming (lol) but eventually it's all going to pay off huge dividends. One way or the other.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I am beyond grateful for you people.
Turnera, yes: "work on that." I'm going to reread your response closely.
maybe I do need something physical or tangible like a rubber band to snap on my wrist. I've used that strategy in the past, when I was trying to get over an ex. I snapped it every time I thought of him. Could work here too.
Madimoff, I really don't know...I think my "failure" gives him justification for his. So as long as I keep failing, he can too, and I think he's afraid of losing that leeway.
So yesterday he picked a fight, I failed a test, and he's justified in all his negativity and overreactions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MM, I send you a cyber-hug!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

I'm gonna send you a cyber hug creda! I see alot of and feel what you're going through, been there done that, bought the t-shirt!  You can do this! Try to focus on taking care of you and let him worry about himself. I know its hard, it truly is, but it can be done!


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Thank you.

I do trust that he'll acknowledge this "sabotage" tendency in MC.

Problem is that I don't feel safe to open up in MC because he's not ready to hear it without judgment.
I opened up last time and he said "well, do you think that feeling is appropriate?"

I'd benefit more from individual counseling.

So in MC, I'll be calm and positive, but he needs to take a turn in the hot seat next time.
And I won't judge his feelings. I'll let the counselor do the asking.
My H is trying to position himself above me so it can look like I'm a nutcase and he doesn't have any work to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Something we both did was, we went to individual counseling first, then marriage counseling came later. Everything starts with "you". No one should expect a marriage to work out if both people are not working on themselves first. Then bring the couple together and work from there.

I think what happens sometimes in MC is because neither has worked on themselves first, they go away from MC feeling frustrated because they have that notion that the other one should be doing this or that, or that the counselor will fix the marriage. That wont happen. It has to begin with both people's individual selves first. 

I'm not saying that people that have tried MC first and not ever tried IC, their marriages don't work out, because many do, but alot of it has to do with both people being on the same page about things.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Don't let him get away with making you look bad in MC. If you end up fighting the whole hour, so be it. But do NOT back down! MC is your one place to show your side without being beaten down for it. If he's mad afterward, that is HIS choice; _you don't have to participate._

I have a really great little book that will help you a lot, I think: The Dance Of Anger. It's very powerful. It talks about how, when YOU change and improve, the people who have been depending on you to be their 'savior' and Giver will get upset and will do all kinds of awful behavior to get you to 'Change Back!' to what you were before.

As my IC told me, when you stop propping up your husband, he will do one of two things: fall down flat on his face, or learn to stand on his own two feet. He HAS no other choice, because you've removed yourself as his support.

Anyway, read that book; it will really help.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I hear that.

Here's where I believe we are:

me: "individual counseling would be good for each of us. We each have to work on our own issues before we can improve the marriage."

him: "YOU need that. Do that, and we'll no longer have problems."

we haven't literally had that conversation, but....

So MC may be the only way to ensure that he's doing his share of the self-work.

Yesterday when we fought, he threw in my face the things I'd said in MC.
I've probably done that too...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So what?

He expects you to back down when he throws things in your face.

Surprise him.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> So what?
> 
> He expects you to back down when he throws things in your face.
> 
> Surprise him.


actually I think he expects me to fight back.
But I don't want to stoop to the level and ways that he fights.

"Surprising him" is exactly what I need to do, in so many ways...

Starting with: I will not bring up any of this, as much as it's eating at me.
I have said everything I needed to say to him.

Here's where it's been left:
Last night, he said something so juvenile and shallow about a member of my family, that it doesn't deserve a response.
I told him "that is a juvenile thing to say." (I did unfortunately respond a little more, defending this person who's basically a saint, my grandmother.)
He yelled. "I didn't mean anything mean by it!! Stop lecturing me!!"

I said nothing more. Did some work. Went to bed.
Got up, went to work.
He texted me today to ask me what time I want dinner, how my day is going, what time I'll be home.

At this moment, I feel so far from all the warmth that was radiating between us only yesterday.
And it'll surprise him that I won't approach him to restore that warmth, which is my usual way.
There is NOTHING more I have or need to say to him about any of our issues at this moment.

I'll be polite, but when we're home together tonight, I'll focus my attention on anything but him.

I have read dance of anger...the suggestions are in line with how I need to behave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Reminds me of that video of the baby throwing a tantrum. You move to another room where you can't SEE him throwing a tantrum, so he follows you, finds you, and starts the tantrum again on cue - once he knows you see him.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> Reminds me of that video of the baby throwing a tantrum. You move to another room where you can't SEE him throwing a tantrum, so he follows you, finds you, and starts the tantrum again on cue - once he knows you see him.


Oh no, I'm the one usually following him around when we fight.
(though I've gotten a lot better about this)

*I* know I'm working on it.
His accusations that i'm not--that is what makes it hard for me to find warmth, trust, and respect for him right now, especially since I was vulnerable in front of him.
That's mine to own and I'll deal with it without him.

I may try that rubber band. Ouch!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

There is very little in life more humiliating than following your spouse around begging to be understood.

The relationship immediately changes from "equals in conflict" to supplicant child begging parent not to punish.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> There is very little in life more humiliating than following your spouse around begging to be understood.
> 
> The relationship immediately changes from "equals in conflict" to supplicant child begging parent not to punish.


Ew. Good thing I've gotten better about it.
I'm in "busy/attentive to other things/indifferent/polite" mode for the time being. 
Seems the only reasonable option that feels comfortable.
for once, I honestly DONT have anything "fixing" to say to him, so im not "struggling" to hold something in.
I know I've said my piece, won't try to "get through to him."
Maybe that's a baby step.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

We both got home, I made dinner. (I could tell he was waiting to see if I would.)
He said thank you, said it was good, gave me a kiss.
He assumed we'd go out with the friends we do every Wednesday night.

I told him to go without me.
I'd rather be with my laundry and SATC. (I didn't say it like that, said I needed to finish laundry and focus on getting things done.)
He's giving me snotty comments about laundry and SATC, which I'm ignoring.
I'm content here with myself for the evening.

Tomorrow i'm getting up early again and getting out of the house before he wakes up---that little routine change actually makes a noticeable difference in the way i feel.
It's about how I prioritize my time, it lowers my "pathetic" quotient and reminds me that I have my own life to live.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Awesome!


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I don't want to be a b****....I'm much happier when I'm freely pouring love into my H's love bank.

But he wasn't nice, I feel hurt still, and I'm taking care of me to get over it, and being true to what I need right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I do trust that he'll acknowledge this "sabotage" tendency in MC.


My wife (2sick) and I often follow your posts and we are also in MC. My wife has also accused me of sabotage and I couldn't disagree more. I think what happens is that we both have certain expectations, and if either of us don't meet those expectations there's a possibility that one us over reacts, and a good week can quickly fall apart. Just my two cents.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Totally makes sense, and I could tell you were 2sick's husband. 
if he sabotages, I don't think it's on purpose.
I think you're right about expectations and disappointment, letdown.
We both get mad if the other doesn't do what they said they would in mc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

It's hard to change your response to things. You gotta work on it though. Today my husband REFUSED to answer his phone. He does this ALL the time. He will literally NOT answer his phone. I think he enjoys having me call and not answering, knowing that it's driving me nuts. I used to go crazy on him and get on his case and he'd say things like "I refuse to be a prisoner to the phone" or "It drives you nuts when you can't control things, doesn't it?"

This time I decided to take a different tactic. I stopped over on the way home and said in a joking tone "You're a piece of work, aren't you? You really hate that damn phone!" I told him that I was just worried about him and he seemed rather touched. We chatted a bit and I left, and told him I'd be back on Friday and we'd make plans me to drop our son off at his house. No yelling, no screaming....nothing. A BIG change from the past. 

It's hard to make a concerted effort to change but it can work. Now to just maintain the momentum. :smthumbup:


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Totally makes sense, and I could tell you were 2sick's husband.
> if he sabotages, I don't think it's on purpose.
> I think you're right about expectations and disappointment, letdown.
> We both get mad if the other doesn't do what they said they would in mc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess you knew I would have to chime in! I still have to agree with you credam. I hope it's not on purpose because if so MC is just a waste of money and time which could be spent wiser. I also agree you BN, that we BOTH do things that are extremely disappointing but that is a totally different issue. BN will out of the blue just attack/criticize without any provocation...even without me saying a word! I think he does enjoy keeping me off balance and yup, pushing my buttons. I don't know why but we briefly touched on it in mc last week. MC said he likes pushing and for some reason I like them being pushed?!?!?!?:scratchhead: Something to think about! Guess I know what the topic of this weeks session's going to be!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

We each always do what works for us. Even if it's unhealthy - we are still getting SOME sort of payoff from it.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

He was all sweetness with texts while he was out last night:
"Im bringing you home a special surprise! I love you, good night..."
(valentine candy from the drugstore next door to the bar.)
got home, I was in bed and he kissed me good night and said "I love you."

BUT in bed, he did something that I found hurtful:

A few hours into both of our sleep, I snuggled up to him and tried to take his arm to put it around me to spoon, and he kept his arm stiff, refused.
Triggered memories of those nasty fights.
Lesson learned; maybe he was dead weight asleep (no.) maybe he was that drunk. Maybe I'm overreacting.
But it confused me. I thought he was all warm and lovey, and then THAT.

Since it was in a sleepy/alcoholic mode, I'll brush it off in my mind.
But it didn't help ME warm back up into lovey mode.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

One thing we DON'T do is throw what was said/discussed in MC at each other during an argument - big NO NO.

In fact, it's funny, we can go at it in MC and say anything and everything and the minute we walk out the door, we change the subject and go on to other things.

I went home in a positive mood, just like you, didn't say anything, etc., last night. He was fine - I decided to do my thing (watch AI, haven't done that in a while) and left him to fend for himself in the man cave. He came to bed, we watched TV, all seems well this morning.

I've decided I'm too tense, my new motto is to RELAX and just let things flow. If they don't flow in the direction I need them to, then that's my problem, I need to deal with it and if I can't, then I need to make a decision whether to continue to stay or not.

So today, I'm in a good mood - his problem if he isn't. I have spent way TOO much time doing anything and everything so that he will LOVE me - if he can't, then his loss - because you know what - I AM a great catch and if he doesn't wake up and see that soon, then f**k him and adios!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You need to ask him about the tenseness last night. You can't experience these things without discussing them - that leads down the path of uber resentment, and divorce.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MarriedWife, you're very right about needing to relax and not create situations.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> You need to ask him about the tenseness last night. You can't experience these things without discussing them - that leads down the path of uber resentment, and divorce.


I'm going to respectfully disagree that I should bring up the tenseness for a couple reasons:

1. I know what it's about. "don't control me. Don't move my arm to where you want it. If I want to hold you, I'll hold you."
--after I let it go, later in the night he did hold me (kind of)
2. I don't want to give it power by responding to it, don't want to let him know it got to me. That's not playing it cool. That's me owning his behavior.
3. I know he was drinking last night, so a behavior like that may not even be legit.

IF ii bring it up, it'll be in MC. Outside of mc, that conversation won't go well.

One of the dynamics that needs to change is discussions of "what's that about?" at my initiation.
He knows that tenseness hurts me. I know why he does it. My questioning him about it isn't going to bring us closer together.

I do way too much stepping in to fix and discuss.
I need to step back and see if and how he deals.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I do way too much stepping in to fix and discuss.
> I need to step back and see if and how he deals.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Read about the Relationship Triangle.

You sound like the "victim" in the relationship. They spend a lot of time trying to fix things for other people because they feel responsible FOR them, instead of responsible TO them.

Victims need to feel loved at all costs. If it means compromising who they are and what they are so that people will love them - they'll do it.

That's why they make GREAT caregivers, because they will do everything and anything to feel loved, wanted, desired and needed - to their own detriment and those around them. They think they're "helping" everyone, when in fact they're getting in the way of growth and development of those they love.

I know - this is WHO I AM. I recognize myself in this role in my marriage, the relationships with my children and my mother - pretty much everyone I care about.

I feel responsible FOR everyone - I want to fix everything, discuss it, get it worked out - immediately! When I need to be responsible for ME and let everyone else be responsible for THEMSELVES.

Something I've been working on and it's starting to come together, less stress and strife on my back and more concentration on me.

Think about it...


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

Creda, did you mention that your MC is using IMAGO? We initially had a therapist that used that approach, but now we're using the Gottman approach (the four horsemen).


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

One more reason that asking about it won't be good for me:

it's needy. "why didn't you want to hold me?" is needy.

It won't help me decrease the "needy" quotient.
It'll be more of the same.

And it won't make him want to hold me.

The last thing he wants from me is to be pushed, appealed to, questioned.

And the last thing I need is to be knocked down again. So I'm taking care of myself. If he sees that, wonderful and it'll surprise him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Read about the Relationship Triangle.
> 
> You sound like the "victim" in the relationship. They spend a lot of time trying to fix things for other people because they feel responsible FOR them, instead of responsible TO them.
> 
> ...


Is there a book you'd recommend?

Yes, I've always been a helper, fixer, take-on-and-solve-your-issues-er. I have always had an inordinate endowment of empathy and sensitivity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Bad News said:


> Creda, did you mention that your MC is using IMAGO? We initially had a therapist that used that approach, but now we're using the Gottman approach (the four horsemen).


Our mc knows about gottman, but I wish he'd discuss the effects of the 4 horsemen more directly.
Since my H wants all 4 of them to live with us.
Maybe he'll get to that...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> ... Since my H wants all 4 of them to live with us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Where there's humor, there is hope!


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Bad News said:


> Where there's humor, there is hope!


 thanks.

Or my variation: "where there is humor, there is cope!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

Or my variation: "where there is humor, there is cope!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

Come on now, ditch the "glass half empty" club and join the "glass half full" club - the drinks taste a lot better!


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Bad News said:


> Or my variation: "where there is humor, there is cope!"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Come on now, ditch the "glass half empty" club and join the "glass half full" club - the drinks taste a lot better![/QUOTE]

Isn't your screenname "bad news"?  I'm just teasing..(and actually my screen name has the word "hope" in it in Gaelic.)
thanks for your encouragement, you are right and it's clear that you and 2sick are going to be fine because both care and are fully committed!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Is there a book you'd recommend?
> 
> Yes, I've always been a helper, fixer, take-on-and-solve-your-issues-er. I have always had an inordinate endowment of empathy and sensitivity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Go to *therapyideas.net/triangles.htm*. It will give you everything you need to know, including ways to pull yourself out of the victim triangle and balance out your relationships.

It also has information on anxiety and codependency, couples issues, forgiveness, respect, you name it.

Also, some great information on "space between people" and talks about too little and too much (I'm a too much) and how to balance out both.

Very, very interesting reading. I downloaded copies and we discussed the Relationship Triangle, in particular, at my group yesterday.

Let me know what you think.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Also, try this website. Goes into MORE detail on "The Drama Triangle - The Faces of Victim," by Lynne Forrest.

Drama Triangle: The Three Faces of Victim by Lynne Forrest


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

He just stopped by the library (where I'm working on my thesis) to surprise me with fresh veggie juice and candy.
That was sweet and thoughtful and showed he cares about me. 
I like where this is going, though I'm not ready to jump back into "hot temp" mode.

I don't think he realizes how much the big "4 horsemen" fights push me away. 
BUT I do see that in this moment, he is the one pulling in closer---for once.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Go to *therapyideas.net/triangles.htm*. It will give you everything you need to know, including ways to pull yourself out of the victim triangle and balance out your relationships.
> 
> It also has information on anxiety and codependency, couples issues, forgiveness, respect, you name it.
> 
> ...


Thank you!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> One more reason that asking about it won't be good for me:
> 
> it's needy. "why didn't you want to hold me?" is needy.
> 
> ...


I guess I didn't explain well. 

There is a better way to have such conversations than just 'why won't you...?' 

That IS needy AND demanding AND reproachful - he basically HAS to defend himself if you put him down that way.

You can have a conversation in which you state YOUR feelings and questions and concerns...and then just LEAVE them out there for him to see and hear and feel. You're not asking him to change, to fix, to do - you are supplying him with information. His business what to do with it.

But YOU have let him know your side. And walked away from it, because that's all you really needed to do - show him how your side is doing.

And THAT reduces your resentment a lot!


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Come on now, ditch the "glass half empty" club and join the "glass half full" club - the drinks taste a lot better!


Isn't your screenname "bad news"?  I'm just teasing..(and actually my screen name has the word "hope" in it in Gaelic.)
thanks for your encouragement, you are right and it's clear that you and 2sick are going to be fine because both care and are fully committed!
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
Thanks for kindness...from your mouth to God's ears! I guess I know now why bn wasn't answering his phone...hmm
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> I guess I didn't explain well.
> 
> There is a better way to have such conversations than just 'why won't you...?'
> 
> ...


You make great points.

And that's what MC is for, regarding some of this stuff.

BUT:
this thread is all about the fact that now I don't even know if MC is a safe place for me to have/express/share my feelings and needs.
I feel like I was vulnerable to him (honest, reflective and non-blaming in MC), and I got stepped on for it.

Right now i'm feeling self-protective and mistrustful of him.

At this moment, I'd rather let his behaviors, actions, words "hang" with little to no response from me.
Timing is important with the kinds of discussions you're referring to.

A few days ago, I thought it was safe to.
At MC the other day, it seemed to be.
Right now, it's not. 
I'm not setting myself up for "I don't care how you feel."
"what happened in my sleep" isn't the hill I want to die on.

all this being said...I'm having pms, more sensitive right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I do get it. I've lived 30 years not telling my husband my truth. And nearly ended my life a couple times because of it. You are saying you can't be honest because of HIS reactions and actions.

Are you sure of that?

Do you think that is a safe way to make your decisions? Based on how someone else - totally out of your control - will react?

I'm trying to say that a healthy person would share their truth anyway, and not wait for the other person's reaction. 

Simply because it IS your truth and YOU need to share it, or go crazy. Or whatever it is you have now.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Thats not what I mean.

What I mean is that right now it won't do any good.
And I'm choosing my battles. This one isn't worth it.

Plus---some things you know without having to discuss it.
I know why he did that. 
He knows how it makes me feel, I don't need to say it to him.
If that knowledge isn't enough for him to care, then my informing him of it isn't going to accomplish that.

I think it's also a boundary issue.
He didn't want to hold me and let me know in his sleep.
He has a right to not want his arm maneuvered in his sleep. 

There's plenty I can/must be honest about; like I said, what happens in an alcohol-induced sleep just isn't worth a potentially unproductive conversation.
Not everything needs to be discussed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

credamdóchasgra said:


> At this moment, I'd rather let his behaviors, actions, words "hang" with little to no response from me.
> Timing is important with the kinds of discussions you're referring to.
> 
> A few days ago, I thought it was safe to.
> ...


I think your handling this wonderfully. Its not turning into a huge drama, but you are respecting your needs and protecting your heart. that's the most important thing. good for you. Its a much more productive way for him to learn how to relate to you. He'll pick up on it and learn to relate to you differently if he wants intimacy with you.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Blanca said:


> I think your handling this wonderfully. Its not turning into a huge drama, but you are respecting your needs and protecting your heart. that's the most important thing. good for you. Its a much more productive way for him to learn how to relate to you. He'll pick up on it and learn to relate to you differently if he wants intimacy with you.


Thanks, Blanca. It's so hard to know if and when I'm handling something the best way.

Would you agree that the "arm thing" is a boundary issue?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Would you agree that the "arm thing" is a boundary issue?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


oh boy. its crazy how complicated one little thing is, dont you think? i was actually wondering what the 'real' issue was there, too. My initial thought was he was trying to be nice, you came off as cold in return, so he got pissed and maybe hurt, so he got cold. that's kind of what i thought it was.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I feel like it would be counterproductive to bring it up, for the reasons I gave above. 
Especially since he made a special effort to be nice today.
What do you think?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

There are two statements in the article that MWIL linked to, that I think are worth discussing: 

"“My needs are not important ... I am only valued for what I can do for others” 

and 

"...they cannot take care of themselves. They see themselves as consistently unable to handle life. They ... (say) things to their potential rescuer like 'You're the only one who can help me.' "

Do either of those strike a chord with you, Credam? Or sound more like you to your own self?


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I'm going to respectfully disagree that I should bring up the tenseness for a couple reasons:
> 
> 1. I know what it's about. "don't control me. Don't move my arm to where you want it. If I want to hold you, I'll hold you."
> --after I let it go, later in the night he did hold me (kind of)
> ...


You are a writer. You know it's all about the phrasing. There are so many ways to say the same thing that will cause totally different reactions from him. Figure out the perfect phrasing. The perfect phrasing being that which would result in a reaction you want from him.

Crudely it's called manipulating. Nice way to call it - an art of diplomacy.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I feel like it would be counterproductive to bring it up, for the reasons I gave above.
> Especially since he made a special effort to be nice today.
> What do you think?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


oh yes extremely counter productive. the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. i think you are handling it wonderfully. you both know what happened and have your own psych to deal with, so just focus on that. you can bet he is also digesting what happened, albeit a little more unconsciously. lol. he may never be able to articulate what happened or how he feels but he'll start to change how he relates to you.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Blanca said:


> oh yes extremely counter productive. the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. i think you are handling it wonderfully. you both know what happened and have your own psych to deal with, so just focus on that. you can bet he is also digesting what happened, albeit a little more unconsciously. lol. he may never be able to articulate what happened or how he feels but he'll start to change how he relates to you.


Thanks. I think part of his "digestion" of what happened was his thoughtfully surprising me at the library.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> There are two statements in the article that MWIL linked to, that I think are worth discussing:
> 
> "“My needs are not important ... I am only valued for what I can do for others”
> 
> ...


In the first statement: I place a HUGE value on what I do for others as part of my self-identity, but that's just part of my core values and beliefs.
But I don't believe my needs are unimportant.
BUT I'll admit that during conflict with my H, I disregard my own needs. 

In the second: I do believe I can take care of myself, but freely admit that I rely on my H to take care of practical issues that i'm not so good about. It would do me good to get my head out of the clouds and get more responsible in those areas where I "underfunction."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

C...I've been reading this...and the arm thing made me think. I guess I just do things differently. I always ask my SO if he feels like snuggling right now. Or I would ask him if he felt like holding me. I think it comes from reading too damned many books, lol!!!!! 

I'd hold off on bringing it up for the time being. Maybe in MC, but not before. I don't know that he wouldn't see it as some form of criticism.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I don't believe my needs are unimportant.
> BUT I'll admit that during conflict with my H, I disregard my own needs.


A good way to protect yourself in such situations is to sit down and determine what your boundaries are. They are not negotiable, or flexible. They ARE what you can accept in a marriage. 

An easy one...hitting. 'If you hit me, I will pack my bags and move out and divorce you.'

It's tougher when you get down to the less tangible ones. Like interrupting you, or calling you a name, or blaming you...

But you need to determine your responses to these boundary crossers, KNOW what you'll do if one of them happens, and then you have to be willing to DO your act/consequence.

You can inform him ahead of time what you've decided. His business how to react to that; you're merely telling him how you will protect your needs in times of conflict; i.e., you're giving him a warning and asking him at the same time, to respect your boundaries so you can start feeling safe dealing with him.

Have you read _Boundaries in Marriage_ by Cloud and Townsend? Excellent for this.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Blanca said:


> oh yes extremely counter productive. the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.


I am of a different school of thought. I will attempt to communicate the same thing over and over again, except each time I will try to do it in a different way. Until I get the result I've been aiming for.

I see no reason why I shouldn't let my husband know what bugs or hurts me. I see no reason why he shouldn't be capable of getting it. If he doesn't get it or his reaction is not what I've been striving for, I assume my method of communication was faulty. I go for it in _a different way_ some time later (a few days, as I need time to mull it over and he needs time to forget about it/calm down).

Granted, he is open to listening what I say and discussing it. If he doesn't get it, he will tell me. I love this quote from one of my favorite books: "The message is not delivered until it is understood." Until I figure out how to convey something in a way he will understand, I am of a belief that I speak in code he can't crack.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> I am of a different school of thought. I will attempt to communicate the same thing over and over again, except each time I will try to do it in a different way. Until I get the result I've been aiming for.
> 
> I see no reason why I shouldn't let my husband know what bugs or hurts me. I see no reason why he shouldn't be capable of getting it. If he doesn't get it or his reaction is not what I've been striving for, I assume my method of communication was faulty.


The other way to look at it is that HE has his OWN viewpoint and he is giving a stiff arm for a REASON. 

Tell him it bothers you, but then ASK him WHY he did it, if he is hurting or bothered by you...tell him you want to understand what's going on on his side. 

Just as she is hurting, I'm sure he is too. It's never about who's right or wrong, but how to reach a situation where you both feel on board and in love and wanting to please the other.

You know what? I'd bet that you both could benefit from filling out the Love Buster questionnaire. It seems like you both hold a lot of resentment inside.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

turnera said:


> The other way to look at it is that HE has his OWN viewpoint and he is giving a stiff arm for a REASON.
> 
> Tell him it bothers you, but then ASK him WHY he did it, if he is hurting or bothered by you...tell him you want to understand what's going on on his side.


:iagree:

Creda's husband might have pulled his arm away precisely because he was drunk (nothing personal toward Creda), but since she will not talk about it, ask him why he did it, she will sit and stew and be possibly hurt over nothing.




> You know what? I'd bet that you both could benefit from filling out the Love Buster questionnaire. It seems like you both hold a lot of resentment inside.


 Don't know if that's directed at me 

That is precisely why I will sit and think and try to figure out a way of successfully communicating to him why I feel the way I feel. There is no way I will not say a word, keep it inside and resent him for it. Knowing myself, sooner or later I would blow up and take the whole thing completely out of proportion. Not productive in any way.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I know why he did it. I'm not stewing and wondering.

And he has a point: "I'm comfortable. I'm asleep. Please leave me comfortable and asleep in this position. Do not move my arm to where you want it to be."
Moving his arm IS a bit controlling.

Another thing I know he'd say: 
"if you want to snuggle, snuggle up to me. Don't maneuver ME to where you want me."
he has a point there too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Turnera, what you say about resentment is true.

I'm working on healing my own resentment without bringing it to him.
He is not ready or able to deal with certain things I feel---I'VE got to reckon with it first.

The arm thing is nothing but a reflection of our current climate.
When we make headway in dealing with the real issues under the surface, stuff like that does not happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sounds like you have a plan...are you considering doing the LB questionnaire? I've heard from dozens and dozens of people who've used it and it's helped them break down that resentment.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> Sounds like you have a plan...are you considering doing the LB questionnaire? I've heard from dozens and dozens of people who've used it and it's helped them break down that resentment.


I'll look into that.
All signs presently point to:
I am in "solution" phase.
He is in "complaining about the problems" phase.
LB questionnaire is in the "solution" category.
I can't push him out of his phase if he's not ready.
If I try to push him to participate in something more than weekly MC (and the hw our MC gives us), it'll backfire.
So I'll "solve" what I can within myself (attend to my own emotions and control my responses), and hope he meets me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Complaining about the problems means he needs you to listen to him.

And actually, the LB questionnaire is EXACTLY in the complaining about the problems phase. HIM filling it out is HOW he can complain. It's how he tells YOU what YOU do that he is unhappy with. 

Just hand it to him. Tell him you ran across this websurfing, and it should give him a great opportunity to tell you what you are doing wrong. 

You'll get your chance to do the same, later. But you've got to get him on the same page first. 

Let him complain. On the questionnaire.

Then take that valuable information and sit down and make a plan for how you will stop LBing him.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

He's complained, I've listened.
Rinse and repeat. Weekly in MC.
I'm not kidding when I say he makes the SAME complaints and clings to the same story, even about things that aren't happening anymore.
If you recorded him in MC 2 sessions ago, it would sound nearly identical to the first week.
I know for a fact I've changed my tune.
Sure, I'll listen. But at some point he's got to see that just complaining and blaming me won't move us forward.
Best I can hope for is to actually NOT do what he's complained I do, EVEN when he does precisely what
he's told me he'd work on too.
It goes right back to the original post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

All I can tell you is I spent 2 years over at Marriage Builders complaining about my husband. Even accused him of being abusive. All his fault. While everyone there kept saying look at yourself, look at your actions. Well, I didn't WANT to! HE was the problem, couldn't they see that?

Finally I hit low enough that I just said Fine! I'll DO what you say. I'll LOOK at myself and see if it really is all his fault. I'll look at it from his perspective and see if his complaints have merit.

Truth is, they were all right. I was just as much to blame for HIM being upset with me and therefore not giving ME what I wanted, as HE was to blame.

We were caught in a vicious circle. Someone had to go first.

It's really easy to just say he does this; he does that; he never; he always; he's selfish.

In the end, what good does that do?

So what if he keeps complaining about the same things? They obviously bother him. Even if you have stopped doing them, _he doesn't trust you to not do it again._ So he keeps complaining.

Just like YOU do.

You've changed your tune. What exactly has changed in your marriage?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Whatever the changes are, they are gradual.

I am looking at myself.
I am owning my mistakes.
He appreciates that.
He doesn't trust that I'll be consistent in the changes *I* need to make.
Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I don't.
I'm definitely working on it, and time will tell.

I'll keep at it without hinging it on what he does or doesn't do.
Truth is both of us need to adjust. I can only control my own adjustments and that's what i'm focusing on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I do NOT believe that "he is the problem."
I never claimed that.
Never blamed him for everything.
In his frustrated moments, HE blames ME for everything, which also cannot be true.
I refuse to throw that back at him; I don't.

My original complaint was that things were going so well, he got so upset, and that made me sad.
Nothing in there about blaming him for all the problems.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

reachingshore said:


> I am of a different school of thought. I will attempt to communicate the same thing over and over again, except each time I will try to do it in a different way. Until I get the result I've been aiming for.


Exactly! you have to try something new if it doesnt work. What Cred has been trying- talking and telling him- was not working. infact i think things really got worse. Cred is communicating with him differently now, without words. 

I know this sort of communication, no talking and withdrawing, is scary because its associated with a lot of negative connotations. when i first started doing this I got a lot of negative feedback. But it has really worked out for me. I had to beat the resentment and work on other things at the same time otherwise I can see this going sour. but that is the case with anything.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Blanca said:


> Exactly! you have to try something new if it doesnt work. What Cred has been trying- talking and telling him- was not working. infact i think things really got worse. Cred is communicating with him differently now, without words.
> 
> I know this sort of communication, no talking and withdrawing, is scary because its associated with a lot of negative connotations. when i first started doing this I got a lot of negative feedback. But it has really worked out for me. I had to beat the resentment and work on other things at the same time otherwise I can see this going sour. but that is the case with anything.


I've played it cool all week. A few weeks ago this fight wouldve devastated me. But I'm more detached these days.

And the dynamic is shifting ever so gradually.

H came home tonight with two 6-packs of "congratulations beer" (good imported bottles, we're not that lame) since I had good news re: work this week...I had dinner ready for us...he was very affectionate, positive, and appreciative...we watched a movie he picked out especially knowing I'd like it...and... 

NOW. The real test and trick is to STAY cool when our buttons are pushed. THAT'S when "progress" matters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> You make great points.
> 
> And that's what MC is for, regarding some of this stuff.
> 
> ...


Hang in there!!! I know PMS is a B#**~!!! Maybe you can talk to the MC to sort of have boundaries set for h so it can be a safe place again. MC is soo important.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I've played it cool all week. A few weeks ago this fight wouldve devastated me. But I'm more detached these days.
> 
> And the dynamic is shifting ever so gradually.
> 
> ...




:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:
STAY COOL!!!! (gotta let me know how that goes ...and give me the trick to do it!!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I've played it cool all week. A few weeks ago this fight wouldve devastated me. But I'm more detached these days.
> 
> And the dynamic is shifting ever so gradually.
> 
> ...


I will testify that is correct.

What were caverns become "speed bumps".


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

And we had another great day and night!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

:smthumbup: kicking and screaming, girlfriend.....


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

That's awesome!


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