# What would you do if you were me?



## tippingpoint (Jan 6, 2015)

I love and care about my wife. She feels the same about me. We’re good parents with happy kids. We snipe occasionally but rarely argue and our marriage works by any reasonable definition of success. There are no traumatic events in our shared history, nothing unresolved. We have our own friends and interests that don’t intersect. Nights out together revolve around eating out and shopping unless I plan something more. Nearly all our conversations involve the trading of information about the kids and our shared life. My wife rarely asks for anything except reassurance about my love and commitment to her from time to time. She does not talk to me about our relationship except when I initiate, so I can only assume is that she is content with the status quo. Our values align on the most common marriage stressors---finances, work, kids. However, my issue is this: our personalities don’t align when it comes to disposition, intellectual curiosity, being physically active, and being demonstrative with affection. 
My level of satisfaction with our 21 year marriage has dropped considerably in the last 2 years. The waves of dissatisfaction I feel are getting larger and more frequent over time. The main reason is that almost none of my energy and enthusiasm in these key personality areas gets fed back to me for recycling. As a result, it’s very difficult to be close friends much less romantic partners. This dynamic invariably leads to those twice yearly ‘talks’ where I say I need more from her regarding the traits mentioned above. Obviously we are mutually invested in raising our children and that binds us, but otherwise there doesn’t seem to be a genuine interest and desire for each other. 
I try hard to not be resentful or passive-aggressive because I see other ways she is a good partner----loyal, cautious, hard working. I try to make the best of things by being talkative and friendly and doing as much for the household as I can……almost as a distraction. I sometimes get the sense that she wants to be proactive to make things better, but the inhibited personality/low energy combination seems to paralyze her. Maybe I’m getting her best effort. Occasionally there are periods of energy and enthusiasm that last weeks, but it’s the exception rather than the norm. Sadly, it’s hard to take pleasure in these spurts of energy because they tease me into thinking a corner has been turned. This is part of the reason I no longer have big talks about our relationship---she’ll say the right things when pressed, but her day-to-day actions say something else. 
My wife acknowledges the value of these traits and how they contribute to a good relationship, but acting on them doesn’t come naturally. She has to think her way into it, like remembering to get milk and bread. If she is truly vested in our relationship, shouldn’t she care that I’ve given up being demonstrative with affection? Ever since I stopped, I’ve observed that she is content to go weeks without any…….not that she was touchy feely to begin with. I’m just tired of wanting a connected relationship for us more than she wants it for us. I dread having the ‘I love you, but not in a romantic way’ speech, but aren’t her actions already saying that? 
I'm more content in certain ways now that I've stopped using our relationship as a barometer for my happiness. I’m also aware I’m not blameless for my situation----over the years as this dynamic was taking root, we "built a life together". There is a conversation going on here without words---she was saying she wants a companion type relationship, and I accepted that by becoming more and more committed. I get that I’ll be the villain if we split because it will seem like I wanted to change the rules in the middle of the game. Society won’t be sympathetic either because it places a premium on loyalty over all else in relationships. It deems a marriage successful largely by how long it lasts. 
Do we have a future together that could meet both our needs? The future I envision for myself is one where I find new ways to challenge/reinvent myself with new activities/travel/culture while being fully present in the lives of my kids. She has definitively proven on our trips together and in her day-to-day life that a sedentary existence is more to her liking. Staying together will mean that my personal goals and relationship expectations will have to be curtailed, while hers won’t. But isn’t the point to have a shared life? No single thing is a dealbreaker, but taken as a whole it seems unsustainable.

What do you think?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

tippingpoint said:


> I love and care about my wife. She feels the same about me. We’re good parents with happy kids. We snipe occasionally but rarely argue and our marriage works by any reasonable definition of success. There are no traumatic events in our shared history, nothing unresolved. We have our own friends and interests that don’t intersect. Nights out together revolve around eating out and shopping unless I plan something more. Nearly all our conversations involve the trading of information about the kids and our shared life. My wife rarely asks for anything except reassurance about my love and commitment to her from time to time. She does not talk to me about our relationship except when I initiate, so I can only assume is that she is content with the status quo. Our values align on the most common marriage stressors---finances, work, kids. However, my issue is this: our personalities don’t align when it comes to disposition, intellectual curiosity, being physically active, and being demonstrative with affection.
> My level of satisfaction with our 21 year marriage has dropped considerably in the last 2 years. The waves of dissatisfaction I feel are getting larger and more frequent over time. The main reason is that almost none of my energy and enthusiasm in these key personality areas gets fed back to me for recycling. As a result, it’s very difficult to be close friends much less romantic partners. This dynamic invariably leads to those twice yearly ‘talks’ where I say I need more from her regarding the traits mentioned above. Obviously we are mutually invested in raising our children and that binds us, but otherwise there doesn’t seem to be a genuine interest and desire for each other.
> I try hard to not be resentful or passive-aggressive because I see other ways she is a good partner----loyal, cautious, hard working. I try to make the best of things by being talkative and friendly and doing as much for the household as I can……almost as a distraction. I sometimes get the sense that she wants to be proactive to make things better, but the inhibited personality/low energy combination seems to paralyze her. Maybe I’m getting her best effort. Occasionally there are periods of energy and enthusiasm that last weeks, but it’s the exception rather than the norm. Sadly, it’s hard to take pleasure in these spurts of energy because they tease me into thinking a corner has been turned. This is part of the reason I no longer have big talks about our relationship---she’ll say the right things when pressed, but her day-to-day actions say something else.
> My wife acknowledges the value of these traits and how they contribute to a good relationship, but acting on them doesn’t come naturally. She has to think her way into it, like remembering to get milk and bread. If she is truly vested in our relationship, shouldn’t she care that I’ve given up being demonstrative with affection? Ever since I stopped, I’ve observed that she is content to go weeks without any…….not that she was touchy feely to begin with. I’m just tired of wanting a connected relationship for us more than she wants it for us. I dread having the ‘I love you, but not in a romantic way’ speech, but aren’t her actions already saying that?
> ...


Marriage counseling.


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## Shoresofminnesota (Dec 30, 2014)

Going through the same with my wife, she said the "I love you but Im not in love with you" line, 16 years together, 3 kids. She had a EA over the summer and now we are reading Dr. Phils 'Relationship Rescue' book. She wants her freedom, her destiny... Sounds like a mid-life crisis to me. Sure I'd like that too but we made a commitment on our wedding day and that was set in stone when she gave birth 3 times. 

Right now you need to find yourselves TOGETHER. Remember, you have children and if you split say hello to a life of resentment. If you were fighting non-stop I'd understand, sounds like you need that spark again.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Shoresofminnesota said:


> Going through the same with my wife, she said the "I love you but Im not in love with you" line, 16 years together, 3 kids. She had a EA over the summer and now we are reading Dr. Phils 'Relationship Rescue' book. She wants her freedom, her destiny... Sounds like a mid-life crisis to me. Sure I'd like that too but we made a commitment on our wedding day and that was set in stone when she gave birth 3 times.
> 
> Right now you need to find yourselves TOGETHER. Remember, you have children and if you split say hello to a life of resentment. If you were fighting non-stop I'd understand, sounds like you need that spark again.


No one's life is set in stone, even if you have 100 kids. If you think that way then she may feel trapped. I hope you don't let her know that's how you feel. She's not caged, but if you want her to feel like she is then she's likely to want to break free.


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## Shoresofminnesota (Dec 30, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> No one's life is set in stone, even if you have 100 kids. If you think that way then she may feel trapped. I hope you don't let her know that's how you feel. She's not caged, but if you want her to feel like she is then she's likely to want to break free.


On our wedding day we vowed before God, till death do us part, for better or worse. Ya see, these vows do not matter to people much anymore, they do to me. If you can not take these vows seriously, do not have children to bring into a life with no commitment.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I've known a number of couples over the years where one spouse, usually the husband, seems to reach a point like this. It was almost palpable when watching the couple interact. For me, it looked like veiled contempt on the part of the unhappy spouse and seemed to boil down to an intellectual mismatch that was coming home to roost. Eventually all of these couples divorced. (I can think of four such couples as I write this.)

You say that you want certain traits to be validated and shared, yet would your wife not say that you want her to be someone that she simply isn't? Maybe that you knew who she was, but still cared for her enough to marry her? Or perhaps she once embodied the traits that you are yearning for, but she has changed and has matured into a personality and intellect that you don't quite respect (?) 

You would like her to change to resonate more with you on the things that you say above are important to you. She may well feel that she likes who she is, however, just the way that you probably feel that you like who you are. At the moment, it sounds like you feel that you are bending more to her in these categories and you are unhappy. Having her appear to bend to you, though, isn't much of a solution; it's just a band-aid, in my opinion, if it isn't really what's in her heart and mind.

Is it possible that you have changed over the years in how important an intellectual match is to you? This is actually very common and the source of many stagnant marriages.

If you still respect her and would like to try, marriage counseling, as suggested here, could help. If you've moved into contempt territory, however, statistics are against you with this marriage.


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## tippingpoint (Jan 6, 2015)

Thank you for your insightful and helpful thoughts. You really hit the nail on the head. I'm mature enough now to respect differences in people, and while I don't hold my wife in contempt (really not cool with kids), I do struggle to appreciate her because I have my convictions. We've had a couple serious discussions in the last month that centered on the issue of me not feeling 'it' for her and how we can set about trying to get that connection back. I empathized with her that it's not fair to her to be someone she's not. Still, she's been trying---more hugs, baking, etc. While I appreciate the effort, these aren't really the changes I was hoping for. So what do you say to that without sounding like a ****--thanks, but no thanks??? If anything, it sort of reinforces the disconnect, like she just doesn't get me. Last night we had a long talk where she was looking for some affirmation that her efforts are not going for naught. I told her this situation took a long time to develop and that it won't get fixed this quickly but that I'm in no hurry to throw in the towel. Not what she was looking for, but honest. She wants to feel like these efforts won't be wasted in a futile attempt to save the marriage. You're spot-on when you say we both are content with who we are and that any drastic changes would create an inequity in the relationship. That would create a feedback loop of resentment methinks. I have no burning desire to be single, but I also can't see myself with her were it not for daily distractions of parenthood. Thanks for the anecdotal stories of couples you know who were in a similar situation. I


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Shoresofminnesota said:


> On our wedding day we vowed before God, till death do us part, for better or worse. Ya see, these vows do not matter to people much anymore, they do to me. If you can not take these vows seriously, do not have children to bring into a life with no commitment.


 Love is a verb. It takes action, every day, to keep love going. If a partner refuses to do what it takes to make the marriage work, then that person killed the marriage and isn't taking the marriage vows seriously. Once the marriage is dead, the person who files is usually the one who tried to make the marriage work and the other person refused to try. So really, who was committed?


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

I think that reading your original post, the word that kept jumping out to me was assume. You assumed she was happy, you assumed she was content with the passion, you assumed that she was happy with your relationship. This is a very destructive behavior, when you assume instead of communicating to your partner. 

The good thing is that you do take your vows seriously and want to fix this relationship. The key is that the relationship means more to you than individual desires. Gus gave you great advice in marriage counseling. The chances of you two stumbling to the answers by yourself aren't good, so counseling gives you a guide to keep you two on track. The other advice I would give you is to have open and honest conversations with your wife.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It's my opinion that you have to make a decision - do you want to make your best effort to fix it or is the writing on the wall & you're just afraid to say it out loud?

People can fall back in love. They can recover passion and discover new love and appreciation for their spouses. There are many stories here where people do just that. But there are also plenty of cases where people are just done.

I think you have to be very, very honest with yourself about what you want. Your wife is undoubtedly very insecure now and this is a negative feedback loop. Her upset will push you further away, which will make her more upset.

If you decide to give it a real try, you have to be all in - you have to do it with love and respect and compassion. I am glad that you aren't contemptuous; that, at least, offers you a fighting chance if you, indeed, want to fight.

(And I meant to ask: Is there another woman in the picture that you find yourself attracted to?)


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## Emmadog (Jan 9, 2015)

tippingpoint said:


> I love and care about my wife. She feels the same about me. We’re good parents with happy kids. We snipe occasionally but rarely argue and our marriage works by any reasonable definition of success. There are no traumatic events in our shared history, nothing unresolved. We have our own friends and interests that don’t intersect. Nights out together revolve around eating out and shopping unless I plan something more. Nearly all our conversations involve the trading of information about the kids and our shared life. My wife rarely asks for anything except reassurance about my love and commitment to her from time to time. She does not talk to me about our relationship except when I initiate, so I can only assume is that she is content with the status quo. Our values align on the most common marriage stressors---finances, work, kids. However, my issue is this: our personalities don’t align when it comes to disposition, intellectual curiosity, being physically active, and being demonstrative with affection.
> My level of satisfaction with our 21 year marriage has dropped considerably in the last 2 years. The waves of dissatisfaction I feel are getting larger and more frequent over time. The main reason is that almost none of my energy and enthusiasm in these key personality areas gets fed back to me for recycling. As a result, it’s very difficult to be close friends much less romantic partners. This dynamic invariably leads to those twice yearly ‘talks’ where I say I need more from her regarding the traits mentioned above. Obviously we are mutually invested in raising our children and that binds us, but otherwise there doesn’t seem to be a genuine interest and desire for each other.
> I try hard to not be resentful or passive-aggressive because I see other ways she is a good partner----loyal, cautious, hard working. I try to make the best of things by being talkative and friendly and doing as much for the household as I can……almost as a distraction. I sometimes get the sense that she wants to be proactive to make things better, but the inhibited personality/low energy combination seems to paralyze her. Maybe I’m getting her best effort. Occasionally there are periods of energy and enthusiasm that last weeks, but it’s the exception rather than the norm. Sadly, it’s hard to take pleasure in these spurts of energy because they tease me into thinking a corner has been turned. This is part of the reason I no longer have big talks about our relationship---she’ll say the right things when pressed, but her day-to-day actions say something else.
> My wife acknowledges the value of these traits and how they contribute to a good relationship, but acting on them doesn’t come naturally. She has to think her way into it, like remembering to get milk and bread. If she is truly vested in our relationship, shouldn’t she care that I’ve given up being demonstrative with affection? Ever since I stopped, I’ve observed that she is content to go weeks without any…….not that she was touchy feely to begin with. I’m just tired of wanting a connected relationship for us more than she wants it for us. I dread having the ‘I love you, but not in a romantic way’ speech, but aren’t her actions already saying that?
> ...


Hi, just wondering if you have written out a list for yourself and your wife stating specifically what your needs are. Is it overall dissatisfaction on your end. Are you in love with her? Have you expressed wanting more sex, or to do physical type activities more together? Just trying to grasp some more information to see if I could try to help in any way.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Rather than trying to talk her into being what you want her to be... Invite her into a marriage that is more like the one you want it to be. This is an ongoing way you need to operate, not a conversation you need to have. If she rejects your definition of marriage and the beneifts that it gives both of you, then you have your anser.


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## tippingpoint (Jan 6, 2015)

To be 'all in'---that's the rub, isn't it? It's hard to summon the energy and commitment when you're just not feeling it, but without 100% commitment I'd probably just be prolonging the inevitable. Thinking logically, I don't believe the relationship is sustainable, but I owe it to everyone involved to do my due diligence. Our discussions are very sober and heartfelt. 

p.s. No, there is no other person and wouldn't be until any divorce is finalized. To me, that kind of stuff just clouds the picture...not to mention sleazy.


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## ReidWright (May 15, 2014)

have both of you had full physicals lately? sometimes blood work can find vitamin deficiencies or hormone imbalances that would cause this type of long term 'funk'. maybe even low T?

obviously that's a small percentage of the cases, but worth a check if you haven't had a full blood test in a few years

could you both exercise together? feeling better together couldn't hurt. hiking, biking, running, etc

best of luck


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## tippingpoint (Jan 6, 2015)

Emmadog---I probably would point back to my original post where I said that I've always had to have those talks a couple times a year where I tell her what I need more of. You would think she would get it by now. I haven't made a list per say, but if I did it would read something like this: 1. Commit to physical activity (nearly) every day. You would lose the weight you don't need and your energy level would be higher. I need a partner who can (mostly) keep up with me. Right now you're not even in the picture. 2. Stop being a passive participant in life. It's mostly on me to carry the conversations, plan activities, engage with the kids, etc. I'd be ok with this arrangement if you brought more added value (being more fun/happy go lucky, being a sharp dresser, being more affectionate, etc.), but that's not the case. 
You can see that so much of this is tied up in her very nature. As the mother of my children and someone I've been with for 22 years, there is genuine love. What's missing is the romantic love component, and for me, so much of my ability to connect with her on that level is tied to these core traits that she simply doesn't possess. We married at 23, and for the entirety of our marriage my energy and enthusiasm was enough to sustain us, but it's not how I want the next 20 years to play out.


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## tippingpoint (Jan 6, 2015)

I'm totally with you that shared experiences and a wonderful way to cement your bonds. We've tried all sorts of activities together, but nothing ever sticks because she can't stick with anything. I am in great health---exercise 5 times a week kind of guy. My wife is more sedentary---hasn't seriously been active for years. She is also on antidepressants for anxiety and depression (with a side order of low self esteem from a crappy childhood). Has been for 20 years. To her credit, she has managed her symptoms well enough to lead a normal, productive life.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I never had any success asking my wife to change.

I think change only happens when someone is self motivated.

Your wife sounds pretty satisfied by the status quo. You're not. Why would she change?


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## ReidWright (May 15, 2014)

tippingpoint said:


> She is also on antidepressants for anxiety and depression (with a side order of low self esteem from a crappy childhood). Has been for 20 years. To her credit, she has managed her symptoms well enough to lead a normal, productive life.


ohhh. Is she too medicated? Has she had this medication re-evaluated or her condition re-diagnosed in the last few years? these drugs can numb you too much, or another drug might be a better fit for your wife. a second opinion is always a good idea.

again, from your description, it does sound like it's her personality/behavior causing the problem, but it's something to consider.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

tippingpoint said:


> My wife is more sedentary---hasn't seriously been active for years. She is also on antidepressants for anxiety and depression (with a side order of low self esteem from a crappy childhood). Has been for 20 years. To her credit, she has managed her symptoms well enough to lead a normal, productive life.


Well that right there says tons.

And no she hasn't had a normal life within the marriage, though in other areas she has been quite functional, such as parent of the kids and managing household duties, work if she is employed.

There is substantial evidence that anti-depressants are problematic over the long term. They tend to flatten emotions and destroy sex drive. So your wife feels ok all the time, but she doesn't feel any spark for you or for anything really. Yet she isn't unhappy either, and she probably doesn't feel an uneasiness about the relationship which means she doesn't _feel_ a motivation to work hard on the relationship.

What is the general nature of her crappy childhood? Alcoholic parents, physically abusive parents, sexual abuse, overly punitive parents, super strict religious household, deep poverty?

Without giving you a long personal history, my wife had an abusive and dysfunctional childhood and teenhood (is that real word?). She has been on AD meds for about 10 years. She is very bright, very competent, very accomplished professionally, a good mother, etc. But she has been unreachable by me in our 30+ year marriage.

Touch and expressions of affection are very important to me, but not at all to her. In fact it is repellent to her due to her childhood history.

If I were you, one big thing I would do is make it a mission to get her off of the AD meds and to get whatever therapy she needs to put her childhood demons away for good. She'll have to work with both her MD and a psychologist in tandem. Get and read the book "The Mood Cure". There are numerous natural supplements which are inexpensive and totally safe which are proven in medical studies to be as or more effective than Rx meds for mood issues including depression and anxiety. It would be expected she'd transition to the supplements with close oversight by her MD and psychologist, and then only be on the supplements for a temporary period.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I think you have to engage your wife in a plan where you work together to rescue the marriage. Your wife has to understand that you are deeply unhappy, yet you desire to rebuild the relationship because you do love her and value the marriage. Despite that, you cannot remain in this marriage indefinitely.

She needs to understand the status quo is not acceptable to you.

Make this about the relationship and not about her faults. I think you do realize clearly it is not her causing the problems, it is a disconnect between you which is the problem. Both of you need to learn some new behaviors and attitudes.

A good solid MC could do a lot of good.

Two books which I recommend you both read ASAP are "5 Love Languages" and "His Needs, Her Needs".

Something which surprised me from HNHN is that there are many needs we don't realize we have. You probably have needs she is fulfilling which you haven't recognized. She may be taking on organizing the kids' music lessons, and that may be something which would be a big frustration if you had to do it. Stuff like that.

So you may come to see she is pushing a lot of the right buttons in your life, and that may lead you to feel less frustration. She likewise may come to see you are providing financially or you are doing other tasks which are valuable to her and pushes her buttons the right way, and that may lead her to desire to fix the other areas of the marriage.

Something else I should have done many many years ago is insist that the marriage be the primary relationship in the family. Yes kids are important, and yes children need a parent to feed them or get them to school. But the marriage is the bedrock of the family, and there cannot be a good or intact family if the marriage is poor.

Be sure to have a date every week, even if it is just a picnic lunch at the park. Only the 2 of you, no kids and no cell phones. Make this a weekly scheduled priority.

Allow the kids to have less than everything. They don't need to do every sport, plus take music lessons, plus take dance, plus be in the school play, etc etc. Limit their activities. It will be good for them and good for the family. They can miss a soccer practice in order for the family to do something. They can choose either a musical instrument or gymnastics, but not both. Avoid competitive teams or activities unless your kids are truly 1 in a million, most of those activities are enormous drains on the family and the marriage.


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## tippingpoint (Jan 6, 2015)

Thor said:


> Well that right there says tons.
> 
> And no she hasn't had a normal life within the marriage, though in other areas she has been quite functional, such as parent of the kids and managing household duties, work if she is employed.
> 
> ...


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

The other choice is to end the marriage. It would take the pressure off of both of you to either make painful compromises or have your needs unmet.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You sound mismatched to me. This can easily happen as you get older. You sound like you value physical activity, while she values quiet pursuits. This is actually the case in my own marriage, but my husband and I have enough of an overlap in other areas to have negotiated this with little problem over the years. (I like moderate exercise and lots and lots of reading; he likes extreme exercise and less contemplative time - I am active enough to stay physically fit and he works in academics, so we handle the differences.)

All I can say is that fighting depression and related problems takes strength. People who do this throughout their lives and successfully work and raise children are, for me, very admirable, almost courageous. It takes tremendous energy and fortitude, in my opinion. If your wife has battled this throughout your marriage, this indeed could have defined the direction her lifestyle has taken.

In any event, though, things are what they are. She may well be just as unhappy as you are. After all, it can be soul-killing to know that you are not satisfying the one that you love, that that person isn't in love with you anymore and is just staying to 'do the right thing.'

Perhaps if you ask yourself where you see yourself in five years, that would help to push you one way or the other.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I don't think she will ever change given what you've written. So accept this marriage is as good as it is going to get, and decide if that is good enough. If not, do everyone a favor and end the marriage sooner rather than later.


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## tippingpoint (Jan 6, 2015)

alte Dame said:


> In any event, though, things are what they are. She may well be just as unhappy as you are. After all, it can be soul-killing to know that you are not satisfying the one that you love, that that person isn't in love with you anymore and is just staying to 'do the right thing.'
> 
> Perhaps if you ask yourself where you see yourself in five years, that would help to push you one way or the other.





alte Dame said:


> She may well be just as unhappy as you are. After all, it can be soul-killing to know that you are not satisfying the one that you love, that that person isn't in love with you anymore and is just staying to 'do the right thing.'
> 
> Perhaps if you ask yourself where you see yourself in five years, that would help to push you one way or the other.



That's a great point. There's no doubt that me bringing up the same issues year after year has made her feel less secure, which is why reassurance tends to be the one thing she looks for more than any other.


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## tippingpoint (Jan 6, 2015)

Thor said:


> I don't think she will ever change given what you've written. So accept this marriage is as good as it is going to get, and decide if that is good enough. If not, do everyone a favor and end the marriage sooner rather than later.



I wish I could be as bold as you suggest because it's to the point where I think about the logistics and fallout from this all the time. On ther other hand, the marriage is working for everyone in the house except me, and even then, it works for me most of the time, you know? Will it matter if the family breaks up when my youngest is 11 or 13? Not to seem like mr. everything, but how will me or my kids be better off seeing each other 50% less? These are the questions that give me a lot of pause.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

I think you might be well-advised to do some research on depression and anxiety. (and check this link too - I didn't fully empathize with depression until I read this depression comix | a comic about mental illness by clay). Think of your marriage as involving three entities: you, your wife, and her depression. Normal advice given to couples drifting apart won’t apply to your situation. Don’t blame your wife for the problems and expect her to just fix them. Blame the depression, and work WITH your wife to address the problems. Depression is insidious even when on medication; it blunts emotion and libido, it causes weight gain, it drains the enjoyment out of everyday things, it makes mustering energy to do ANYTHING a challenge, much less non-survival essentials beyond food and shelter. You talk to her a couple of times a year about your dissatisfaction, and she does hear you, but she is just not capable of getting over the monumental wall she perceives as being in the way of her ability to do anything about it.

Think of it this way. If your wife was in a wheelchair and you enjoyed jogging, would you expect her to get out of the chair and run with you and then complain when she didn’t? You are asking something of a person with depression that she simply cannot deliver. Antidepressants prevent the lows of depression, but they also often even out the highs of joy and love. The medication she’s on may prevent the suicidal ideation and the worst of the anxiety, which is good, but it won’t magically turn her into a normal person with drive and joy and curiosity. To blame her for that not being the case is completely unfair to her. She is doing the best she can, and if it’s not enough, you have to blame the depression, not her. You might think she is managing her symptoms well and leading a normal life, but from her perspective, that’s taking EVERYTHING she’s got and she’s got nothing left to devote to the changes you are demanding. 

So to leave you with some advice, seek counselling yourself so you can better understand your wife’s depression and how it affects her perception of life, including her marriage. Make sure she’s in counselling because medication alone doesn’t have as good an outcome for depression. Find constructive ways to work on the marriage together instead of putting the onus on her to find extra energy. Find ways to help reduce drains on her energy. Loving someone with depression is hard work because often it doesn’t feel like there is much reciprocity. 

Marriage is indeed a ‘for better or for worse’ scenario. Unfortunately for you, you and your wife BOTH are in the ‘worse’ end of things due to illness, and it may prevent you from ever reaching ‘better.’ I think something key for you to accept that will be removing your resentment of your wife, as her behaviour is not under her control. Resent the illness, not the ill person.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

OP, 

After reading your story, I couldn't help but relate. But with so many differences too. 

Intellectually hubs and I were in the same place. We too did lot of things together. I thought our marriage was fine, even a good marriage. We we married 28 yrs, when he had an affair. 

When we talk now about it, it was he who grew away from us in his way of searching for us to be closer. All he wanted was for us to be closer, deeper, a stronger more bonded marriage. 

I had no idea that we really didn't have that, as I gave it my all in emotions, and love. But it was he, as it sounds in you, wanting more. 

He said he came to me and said he wanted to deepen our marriage, to bring back what we had in the early years. Meanwhile, for the past 28 yrs. I really believed it was a good marriage. We we what others looked at, and for in a marriage as I was told over and over. 

Even thou he said he tried to reach out, I never ever expected he to fall into an affair, as he did not either. It destroyed what now would have been almost a 32 yr marriage, and he is very, very, sorry how our lives turned out. 

Go to MC now. 

~sammy


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Sounds like you have different love languages.


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## CarlaRose (Jul 6, 2014)

I also think you make too many assumptions and that they are selfish- and narrow-based to think you are everything your wife wants you to be and that she would not rather you were someone else or that you would change suddenly. She likely also has assumed you are happy the way things are. And as my experiences, my research, and this board lead me to believe, she has also expresses her discontent, but you have not heard her. That's just the way it goes all too often even if you think you heard her.

I also think it's pretty selfish of you and too much to ask to want her to become everything you think you want, when she was, at least at one time, everything you wanted. What will you want next?

You will get farther if you stop being so selfish. It would be easier for the two of you to find a common ground, something you are both comfortable and happy with. Find some new interests you can both share and be on the same level with.

And, consider something that you likely haven't. Begin pursuing her again. As if you'd only recently met and getting to know each other, pursue her as if you love her. You'd be surprised what develops when a person feels loved and feels special. Instead of telling her what you want and not being satisfied with "her best effort," try provoking something in her. Try considering that you have to meet her half way. And also try considering you're not all that she needs, which might have made it easier for her to be all that you need. So maybe you both have some stepping up to do, rather than thinking you're so great and she can't possibly be enough for you.

Since you're curious, I will tell you what most often happens after divorce. Your kids will suffer immensely. The loss of their sense of security causes emotional destruction. It's something that most people don't notice because most kids are not able to express it, but it shows in their actions. Your wife will meet someone at some point, and he will be the one raising your children. He may or might not like your kids. They may or may not like him. He may or may not treat them well.

You will have your children either 50% of the time or 8-10 days a month, depending on the custody order and what you fight for - which will cost tens of thousands in attorney fees and court costs after the numerous times you have to go back and forth to court for a judgment over every little thing you both disagree about.

You will also meet someone since you're on a journey to find everything you want in a relationship, and she may or may not like your kids. They may or may not like her, and the statistics show the greater likelihood that they won't like her. They will cause problems between you and her. Because of the emotional damage of having their lives torn apart, they will view her as competition for your love and affection (and she will view them the same way because you will ignore her when they are around) also view her as the barrier between you and their mother. In their eyes and their hearts, the two of you would get back together were it not for her presence in your life. And you will coddle them and allow them to become undisciplined hellions because of your guilt of tearing their lives apart.

I could further explain everything I've said and could add so very much more, but I will let that suffice. You think you are concerned about yourself and the kids seeing each other 50% less, but there is so very, very, very much more to worry about. I wish I could inform you in just one post. Do yourself a favor, just for the sake of perspective, read the book "Stepmonster" and you will see what I mean. You want to dispute every word I stated because you'll never be like that, and all that jazz. Your kids are great kids, and they will never be like that, and all that jazz. You would never be with a woman who doesn't love your kids, and all that jazz. That's fine. You have every right to feel that way. Dispute me till the cows come home. Just read the book before you go creating the life for yourself, your intended, and your children that I just laid out for you. Just read the book, and you will see.


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## CarlaRose (Jul 6, 2014)

Zanne said:


> This is preposterous! You ran through every POSSIBLE negative thing about divorce. While I think it's prudent to consider the disadvantages to divorce, especially when children are involved, there are also positive outcomes too. Geesh, lighten up.


Hello there, Zanne. I've been waiting for you. I've been waiting for someone to come along and tell me and the OP that I don't know what I'm talking about. I gave the OP the very best readily available resource to find out, but I guess you know better than the book too. You may disagree. You are entitled to feel my post was preposterous and to feel it was too negative. Think whatever you like, but your disagreement doesn't make you right, and it doesn't make you more right than me or the years of studying the subject I've done or the numerous sources of study at my disposal. I advised based on all of that and accurately presented and represented the likelihood because that is exactly what happens in the great and vast majority of cases. But, like I said, I suggested the resource for the statistics if he even slightly wonders what "great and vast majority of cases" means. That book will tell him everything he needs to know from the mouths of people like him, who thought they were soooo unhappy in their marriage and expected divorce would make everything okay for them to finally pursue what they think they want.

And, guess what, Zanne, people like you are also in the book because there are LOTS who have zero idea but think good advice they read is "preposterous." Sorry, but like I said before, that's the just the way it goes. So, if I can convince even ONE person to stop being selfish and start working on themselves and their marriage in hopes of preventing them and especially their children (AND the woman he will later be with) from experiencing the horrors of something that is so unnatural as step life (more like step hell), then I'm not going to postpone the effort. And, I won't hesitate to ask you to please refrain from comment until such time as you know what you are talking about. If you are a step parent, then I hope it's going well for you. If you are the husband/boyfriend of a stepmother, then I'm sure you have no idea what she goes through or your children either. Women don't tell the honest trust, and men don't hear what they do say. If, on the otherhand, you are not a member of a step family at all but somehow became expert on the subject based on what you think you see of other people's marriages, then I'm sure the OP appreciates you sharing your expert opinion and wise counsel.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Zanne said:


> This forum is full of people who like to throw around loosey-goosey statistics. I'm not against statistics - they have their place - but I relate to real life experiences. And in my life, people like you telling me that I am selfish because I didn't want to be married to my husband, did more damage to my emotional well being than I needed. IMHO, of course.
> 
> Sorry, I have no statistics to back up my opinion. I can only say that it was the right decision for me. I only regret how it all happened which is why I advised the OP to be honest with his wife.


Zanne,

People here called you selfish because you are an unrepentant serial cheater.

You want statistics, how about actual case studies?

Amazon.com: The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: A 25 Year Landmark Study eBook: Julia M. Lewis, Sandra Blakeslee: Books

That is about as real as it gets.


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## CarlaRose (Jul 6, 2014)

Zanne said:


> I stand by my original assessment that your post about divorce was too heavy handed and negative. I take issue with your post for a few reasons.


If I told you and a room full of people that shooting yourself in the foot is going to be extremely painful, you could just as well tell me again that I am being too heavy handed and negative. You just might have good reason for telling me that if you have much higher tolerance for pain than I do. Heck, it might even feel good to you, for all I know. But, that would not make my warning unreliable or unnecessary because it certainly does apply to the vast majority of those in the room. You may take exception since it doesn't apply to you, but the OP may not have thought about all of the painful ramifications of shooting himself in the foot.



Zanne said:


> This forum is full of people who like to throw around loosey-goosey statistics. I'm not against statistics - they have their place - but I relate to real life experiences. And in my life, people like you telling me that I am selfish because I didn't want to be married to my husband, did more damage to my emotional well being than I needed. IMHO, of course.


There are lots of reasons that people divorce. There are lots of reasons that people SHOULD divorce, and some make divorce an absolute necessity. However, that is not the case with this OP IMHO, of course. He is simply being selfish is the way I see it. But, what could that possibly have to do with you? How does that apply to you for you to take issue with it as if I applied to you and your situation. Whatever your reasons for divorcing, unless they were the exact same shallow reasons that this OP gave, then you have no reason to take issue with my advice to him. I spoke to him and to him only. I hardly attempted to apply my comments to all on planet earth. Your marital situation, for all I know, may have been one where I might have begged you to please leave him. It may even have been one where I literally came to your door and moved you out of the house, as I have done before. So, what applies to THIS man was not meant for you or anyone else who is not in his same situation. If divorcing was a purely selfish act on your part, then you are right to take issue because you would then insist on being right for your decision no matter what. 



Zanne said:


> For the record, I have a wonderful mother-in-law who happens to be my STBXH's step mother. She is simply "Grandma" to my kids (and their friends and neighborhood kiddos too), even though my kids have other grandmas. She has been nothing but a positive influence in all of our lives. "Step monster" she most definitely is not!!


And this is what I was talking about. Your one experience is good and warrants favorable report, but it is only your one experience. Without benefit of study and those statistics you have so little regard for, you cannot dispute what I told him. Plus, your experience is not first hand because you are not sharing it as a stepdaughter but as stepdaughter-in-law. You cannot know the huge difference. Nevertheless, your good report was of your stepmother-in-law, which is good to know and kind of you to share. I'm happy to know she fairs well in your esteem. However, the book I recommended to the OP has nothing to do with anyone actually being a stepmonster.



Zanne said:


> I don't doubt that there are horrible step parents. I know a few myself. But one book is not an authority on the complicated topic of blended families.


You're absolutely right. It is not an authority on the complicated topic of blended families. It is only a book I suggested as "the best readily available resource." You needn't have twisted everything I stated into anything more than I claimed it to be.




Zanne said:


> I also don't think scare tactics are effective here. Sharing your knowledge or opinion on a matter is one thing, but writing in ominous tones and telling the OP that he is selfish for his feelings is not constructive. Again, IMO.


Cautionary. Fair warning. Admonishment. Food for thought.
The OP is contemplating placing himself and his wife among the common divorce statistics.

He is contemplating placing his children among the statistical children of divorce.

I cautioned him of other statistics he and they will potentially become vulnerable to based on how often it happens, which is very often and is, not to mention, exactly what he wants since finding the mystical, if not mythical, soul mate and love of his life is his sole motivation. If you really must call that scare tactics and ominous tones, then that's you - again someone who doesn't have much regard for statistics. But, there are people who appreciate being made aware of things they may not previously know and had not thought about. It is not scare tactic to submit to him that being so judgmental of his wife may not be the best idea.


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## CarlaRose (Jul 6, 2014)

Agreed.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

OP, 

I often asked my husband when he says he came to me asking to try to deepen our relationship, "What was it that you ((he)) did towards me to do so?"

It all came down to his needs. His mid-life crises. He was lonely on trips. He wanted to share more of his experiences he was having. ((airline pilot)) He wanted me to fly off with him more. He wanted me to satisfy the things inside of him that he was lacking, he wanted me to cuddle more with him. He wanted me to talk more in depth with him. He wanted me to hug him more, to kiss him more, to be there for him, to have more fun with him. It was what he wanted... do I recall him reaching out doing these things towards me, when he was complaining of me not giving back? I think you can guess the answer. 

Ill tell you what I was doing, everything possible to make his life nice, and our family. We'ld sit often and talk of love life and the pursuits of happiness... but I was also raising a family still, and had aging parents, and sick animals to take care of... and him to take care of, a huge house to maintain, a life at home that he could just get up and go away from. I made sure when he was home, he didnt need to do house stuff, he had "us" time...So I ask you, have you looked at what your wife is facing everyday? Have you tried to make her life better, so maybe she can look at you in giving eye, maybe? 

Our sex life was on par for a long term marriage, but we had sex everyday he was home. It was an important part of a relationship to me. When he started to tell me how it became not so exciting and wanted it to be more of what it use to be... and I told him, "sex with him wasn't exactly all that thrilling with him either," you would think I crushed his whole world. He just could not believe it!!!! He was shocked!
OMG Selfish !!!!!!

Op , dont mean to be giving you a hard time, because you wrote in about your unhappiness, but I think you need to take another look at how and why you are questioning the things you are ...

~sammy


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Zanne, 

I agree, but think each need to talk w each other honestly... 

~sammy


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## tippingpoint (Jan 6, 2015)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Antidepressants prevent the lows of depression, but they also often even out the highs of joy and love. The medication she’s on may prevent the suicidal ideation and the worst of the anxiety, which is good, but it won’t magically turn her into a normal person with drive and joy and curiosity.
> 
> Agree 100%. Thanks for your post. It was very informative.
> 
> ...


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## tippingpoint (Jan 6, 2015)

I get that adding value to the relationship is a two way street and I probably wasn't that emotional rock she needed from time to time, but that doesn't mean I wasn't ready and willing when called upon. Thing is, she never wanted to have that conversation, so am I a jerk for assuming we were OK? 

For the record, I do not feel like I’ve given more than her to this relationship. I simply feel like we are different people who do not share a similar sense of purpose beyond our children and the daily grind. Our personality differences were insignificant at the beginning, but they have morphed into this never ending problem (for me) we can’t resolve. I thought that with more alone time together we could fix this, but instead the lack of progress is creating a climate of constant insecurity for me, so what do you do? Despite my best efforts, I simply cannot rekindle the deep romantic feelings I had for her----it's just not something you can will yourself to do. In so many ways she is a much stronger person than I am, but the differences in our personalities is a recurring drag on our relationship and I don't know how or if that will ever change. Like I said in my original post, this situation is years in the making.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

One thing that I neglected to ask, OP, is whether you give your wife the reassurances that you say she appears to need. Given the way you feel, I hope you don't.

As I've said, it's my experience that people often evolve into personalities that aren't at all matches for the partners they chose when they were young. As we get older, we also can value and prioritize different things.

It's very hard to make the jump that you think you need to make. As to your original question, noting what you have written, I think I would probably talk honestly to my spouse and let him know that I feel that divorce may be the best course.


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## Overat50 (Jan 26, 2015)

Shoresofminnesota said:


> Going through the same with my wife, she said the "I love you but Im not in love with you" line, 16 years together, 3 kids. She had a EA over the summer and now we are reading Dr. Phils 'Relationship Rescue' book. She wants her freedom, her destiny... Sounds like a mid-life crisis to me. Sure I'd like that too but we made a commitment on our wedding day and that was set in stone when she gave birth 3 times.
> 
> Right now you need to find yourselves TOGETHER. Remember, you have children and if you split say hello to a life of resentment. If you were fighting non-stop I'd understand, sounds like you need that spark again.


his is me. 22 years I got the I love you but not in an intimate way speech a couple weeks ago. But he is still here in the house??!!!


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

OP, 

I can understand where you are coming from, as I was married 28 years and now even thou I see my huband often I dont love him like I did. I love him like I love my brother in law. I too have not been able to make the decision to walk away and start a new life. Mine was not years in the making as you say yours was. 

There is a very good book, I dont remember the author, It's called, "Uncoupling." The author explain so well what we do to a relationship that uncouples each other from each other, and how to then uncouple.

Try to answer if it is that you are running away from something, or are you running toward something. Which will make your life the better to be real in. 

~sammy


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

tippingpoint said:


> For the record, I do not feel like I’ve given more than her to this relationship. I simply feel like we are different people who do not share a similar sense of purpose beyond our children and the daily grind. Our personality differences were insignificant at the beginning, but they have morphed into this never ending problem (for me) we can’t resolve.


You're obviously wanting to date other women, just admit it.

That said, if you ARE willing to work on the marriage, there are many many things YOU could be doing that could bring your wife around to your side. Are you too ready to bail to consider them? Only you know.

Start with reading His Needs Her Needs, so you can understand what it takes to make a marriage successful. Share what you learn in it with her. I read pieces of it to my H so he could understand that love bucket concept, and he's used it many times since. 

Once you read it, print out the Love Busters questionnaire, and both of you sit down and fill yours out. Then trade. Read what your spouse says about you, what you do that makes her unhappy, and vow to change those habits. Discuss them without recrimination, with a purpose toward no longer harming each other.

Spend 2 or 3 months just eliminating those LBs. Once you do that, then fill out the Emotional Needs questionnaire, and do the same.

And then make sure the two of you are spending at least 15 hours a week together doing FUN stuff, NEW stuff, to fill your brains with happy chemicals that bond the two of you. Try new restaurants. Sign up for a cooking class together. Set up a jigsaw puzzle. Go on walks. Hold hands. Watch a high school basketball game or musical. Take a racquetball class together at the community college. If you just keep doing the same old same old, of course you get bored and unhappy.

This is in your control, if you're really intent on fixing it.

And the beauty is that, once you start doing these things, SHE starts seeing YOU in a new light again as well, and she'll be wanting to make YOU happy too.


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