# Do you think emotional immaturity is a trait common with cheaters?



## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

I ask this because I get a sense that allot of people choose to cheat rather than face their marital problems. Perhaps they don't know how, are too self centered or just completely oblivious to the consequence.

What's your take?


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

Our MC told me in private that my serial cheating husband is emotionally immature. I think along with that, he is a combination of impulsive, selfish, and a liar.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

I think that is certainly one reason. 

I have a friend who cheated on all 3 of his wives (I tried to get him not to) and he is very immature in relationships.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

tracyishere said:


> I ask this because I get a sense that allot of people choose to cheat rather than face their marital problems. Perhaps they don't know how. Are too self centered or just completely oblivious to the consequence.
> 
> What's your take?


When I read your post and the two responses after it, I was stunned. 

My H just received his "last straw" yesterday. 

He is extremely emotionally immature AND he is impulsive (ADD), selfish and the biggest liar on this side of the Mississippi.

Long story short, his Mom messed all 3 kids up big time. They are all divorced, emotionally and socially immature and awkward.

Cannot express, accept or process love, emotions, feelings .....


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

VeryHurt said:


> When I read your post and the two responses after it, I was stunned.
> 
> My H just received his "last straw" yesterday.
> 
> ...


Very Hurt, If you don't mind me asking how did your husband's mother mess her kids up? The reason I ask is because I think my husband was brought up weird. But he never talks about his childhood and both of his brothers have similar problems.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

*IMHO*, I don't think that emotional immaturity is a "trait" of cheating; I believe it's _The "*ROOT*_". It's the reason why people cheat in the first place. 

Emotional immaturity is the 'umbrella' under which other negative traits fall. For instance: Cheater's are selfish. Selfishness is a trait of emotional immaturity. Cheater's also lie. Lying is also a trait of emotional immaturity. Blaming others, self-centeredness, not taking responsibility for your own choices, doing whatever you feel like doing WHEN you feel like doing it with WHOM you feel like doing it with, and breaking an important promise or vow are also traits of immaturity.

Unfortunately, there is no 'cure'. Growing up is something that we have to WANT to do, and then deliberately put forth the effort to do so. We have to actively SEEK the truth and decide to _live_ by it, once we find it. We learn that the truth applies to ALL people, including _ourselves_. 

I am convinced that if we look hard enough, most of the BS's can pinpoint other areas where the WS had immature attitudes/beliefs/actions besides cheating...
...and probably exhibited these traits long before cheating ever occurred. 

Vega


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

tracyishere; said:


> I ask this because I get a sense that allot of people choose to cheat rather than face their marital problems. Perhaps they don't know how. Are too self centered or just completely oblivious to the consequence.
> 
> What's your take?


From what I see my in-laws are afraid to communicate with each other and both my WS and his older sister are emotionally immature. I see it better, more clearly, post affair. They all dance around the truth but don't often actually communicate it effectively. MIL is extremely passive aggressive but also runs the show, and put both on a pedestal when they were kids. FIL has no say and shut his mouth decades back. The way they express themselves to each other 99.9% of the time is the silent treatment. My MIL has purposely refused to communicate with us over not agreeing with her over something very petty. That silent treatment episode went on for over a year. Not that it'll ever happen but a diagnosis of narcissism for her would be no surprise to me.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

Every cheater I know of is a coward who avoids confrontation.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

I don't know if it's emotional immaturity so much as it is conflict avoidance. With every cheating ex I had including my ex wife I noticed they didn't like to confront relationship issues on an equal plane. It was always do it my way or there's going to be hell to play. After the first real big fight when I didn't agree to do everything their way they would go out and set up shop with some other guy or "just a friend" who thought he was rescuing them from some assh*le boyfriend.

I don't blame myself for this anymore, I just think I'm never going to get into another relationship with a woman I can't argue with. Because I don't want to hear "I love you" and marry that woman, I want to see how you act when you hate me. If we can still get along and without cheating I'll think about it.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Very Hurt, If you don't mind me asking how did your husband's mother mess her kids up? The reason I ask is because I think my husband was brought up weird. But he never talks about his childhood and both of his brothers have similar problems.


Hi

My mother in law was described by all of children as cold, distant, critical, unapproachable and business like.

She was not maternal whatsoever. She did not show them emotion or tenderness. There was no bonding. They all have become self reliant, selfish and cannot attached to another human being. 

Look up Avoidant Attachment Disorder.

The kids never learned to accept, receive or process love, feelings and emotions.

They are all emotionally immature and cannot cope well with their feelings or stress.

Also, my husband and his brother cheated on their spouses. Their father cheated on their mother. Their grandfather cheated on their grandmother.

Very sad situation. 

Hope this helped.

VH


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

I hate to think that mothers are at fault. Not cool. Just saying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

You're never more than 50% responsible, if that.


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jules1990 (Jun 13, 2013)

With this seeming to be some bit of a fact is it possible that counselling can and will change them?

Of course all efforts are in vein if they do not want to change in the first place!!

But the idea sits that if they are faced with consequences and are pushed hard enough they might want to change? or is it more a case of serial cheaters do not change they just learn to cover their tracks better???


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

The only thing that's going to fix a cheater is* hitting rock bottom.* Not you forcing them through therapy so they can put on show for you and act like a good little doggy long enough for you to drop the issues. Not antidepressants or the latest miracle treatments they can use as their excuse as to why they suddenly snapped. And certainly not you loving them into fidelity! 

They have to hit rock bottom misery for long enough to see they have issues that are not going to go away in someone elses bed or at the bottom of a bottle or jar of pills. Those issues that stem from childhood and have only been masked with survival instincts in relationships. Ie, He/she cheats on you time and time again in order to escape perceived feelings of abandonment.

I also have to add that we choose partners with an emotional maturity level around that of our own. So you may have been a perfect match with your spouse a few years ago before kids and real life stress, but as you grew up and they didn't.... which one of you has to be the adult in this relationship and pull the lions share for both of you and which one of you just wants to be treated like a child and avoid responsibilities?


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

Nsweet said:


> The only thing that's going to fix a cheater is* hitting rock bottom.* Not you forcing them through therapy so they can put on show for you and act like a good little doggy long enough for you to drop the issues. Not antidepressants or the latest miracle treatments they can use as their excuse as to why they suddenly snapped. And certainly not you loving them into fidelity!
> 
> They have to hit rock bottom misery for long enough to see they have issues that are not going to go away in someone elses bed or at the bottom of a bottle or jar of pills. Those issues that stem from childhood and have only been masked with survival instincts in relationships. Ie, He/she cheats on you time and time again in order to escape perceived feelings of abandonment.
> 
> I also have to add that we choose partners with an emotional maturity level around that of our own. So you may have been a perfect match with your spouse a few years ago before kids and real life stress, but as you grew up and they didn't.... which one of you has to be the adult in this relationship and pull the lions share for both of you and which one of you just wants to be treated like a child and avoid responsibilities?


Wow this sums up everything in my life! So true!!


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

tracyishere said:


> I ask this because I get a sense that allot of people choose to cheat rather than face their marital problems. Perhaps they don't know how, are too self centered or just completely oblivious to the consequence.
> 
> What's your take?


I also think in that line. Lack of emotional maturity blurs the line between right and wrong, and this plays a pivotal role in cheating and the rationalizing behavior that goes with it.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think we consider people who lack empathy and see things through a self-absorbed lens as emotionally immature. This means that we, as humans, think that a selfless, giving, empathetic nature is more mature. I agree with this and think that we do consider people who value the welfare of others to be more adult and, in fact, respectable and admirable.

For me, though, it is probably more that people like this are simply more civilized. They move past the basic impulses that can define our behavior and consider the lessons of civilization, which includes greater reasoning. Applying the golden rule requires some thought and discipline & isn't always a natural impulse. People who follow this are, for me, more civilized and respectable. Cheaters do what they want and the consequences to others be damned. Definitely not the golden rule and definitely not civilized, imo.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

I would have to agree. I know my wife has emotional immaturity issues. 

I was also told by 3 MC/therapist that intelligence matters as well. Though my STBXW has a college degree they clearly expressed that anyone can get a degree, they meant real intelligence and that the difference in intelligence between spouses can cause issues.

I was also told she lacked the coping tools in her toolbox. This is why she abandoned me and the kids.


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

Touched on something I considered a while ago when looking at how irresponsible cheaters are in the complete lack of consideration towards others around them.

Knowing that emotional maturity comes from nurturing and learning from ones parents and role models it kind of stands to reason one such thought I had a while ago, "never get too emotionally involved with a woman who has some kind of sexual abuse in her life at a young age" and please do not flog me in the square for that but I have read so many threads where the now serial cheaters are or were victims of sexual abuse at a tender age and that horrific event has stunted their ability to comprehend emotions and they are far more able to compartmentalize between affairs and day to day life without hang ups, they have done it their whole lives.(my wife has this trait in her history so I do know what I am talking about and I have spoken to Councillors about this issue too, very long story that is not mine to share but it killed a lot of her emotions and ability to empathize too) 

But yes I do certainly agree, there is a general immaturity on the whole to be addressed not just emotionally!!


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

VeryHurt said:


> Hi
> 
> My mother in law was described by all of children as cold, distant, critical, unapproachable and business like.
> 
> ...


VeryHurt, 
This was very helpful. It is almost like you are talking about my husbands family.
My question to you is, do you think they can overcome this behavior or is it too deep inside of them? And are you still with your WH?


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

Here's a good read I just found on the subject, describes my STBXH to a tee !!

http://leading-integrity.com/pdf_articles/EmotionalMaturity15Nov11.pdf


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

wranglerman said:


> Touched on something I considered a while ago when looking at how irresponsible cheaters are in the complete lack of consideration towards others around them.
> 
> Knowing that emotional maturity comes from nurturing and learning from ones parents and role models it kind of stands to reason one such thought I had a while ago, "never get too emotionally involved with a woman who has some kind of sexual abuse in her life at a young age" and please do not flog me in the square for that but I have read so many threads where the now serial cheaters are or were victims of sexual abuse at a tender age and that horrific event has stunted their ability to comprehend emotions and they are far more able to compartmentalize between affairs and day to day life without hang ups, they have done it their whole lives.(my wife has this trait in her history so I do know what I am talking about and I have spoken to Councillors about this issue too, very long story that is not mine to share but it killed a lot of her emotions and ability to empathize too)
> 
> But yes I do certainly agree, there is a general immaturity on the whole to be addressed not just emotionally!!


No flogging in the square but I don't think every woman with sexual abuse in her background ends up out of control.

I was sexually abused at a young age and in addition to that, raised around many alcoholics and parents who were too young to be married and/or having children. I have all manner of assorted dysfunction in my family history. My mother is basically an aging drug addict who abuses prescription drugs instead of previously, cocaine. My father had a lot of things wrong with him when he died but it was really the abuse of booze that killed him at a whopping 59 years of age.

OTOH, my WS was raised in a very traditional environment with no drunks milling around, he and his sister suffered no sexual abuse, parents have been married almost 60 years and not rich but very comfortable. WS leans toward not being fiscally responsible, is admittedly impulsive, irritable and temperamental, is bored easily, etc. My SIL plays the victim so much I wonder if she has a personality disorder, very emotionally unstable, manipulative.

On paper, I should be the one lacking self control and making poor decisions left, right and center. Not so. My turds, so to speak, are very much in a row and anyone who knows me would say I am levelheaded and responsible to a fault. I don't cheat, not out of control, no abuse of alcohol and don't use drugs, responsible, got three responsible kids to adulthood, blah blah. I've been to therapy to deal with some of my childhood issues but nothing too intense or long-term. I'm not perfect but a strong person and there's nothing super extraordinary going on here with me. 

Basically I'm an average 40 something with a s*itty childhood in my past and sorry to say, my WS and SIL were spoiled and put on a pedestal....while I'm not without issues, it's obvious there are a lot more issues going on with both of them.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

Each person and situation is different, but there are a number of traits common to cheaters: emotional immaturity, inability to acknowledge problems in their lives, inability to deal with those problems in a functional way, impulsiveness, entitlement, selfishness etc... 

And yeah, unfortunately a trip to rock bottom is often the best way to break the cycle and bring the person back down to Earth. They've constructed an alternate reality for themselves, and though it exists only in their heads and is probably completed effed up, to them it's real. It's hard, especially for a spouse (who probably has been vilified in the other's mind), to break through this fog and actually get through to the cheater. Sadly, sometimes all you can do is allow the cheater to hit rock bottom, or at best give them a push downwards; and they may continue to damage themselves and their relationships until they come to the realization that they're living a lie. 

That said, I think that once a person realizes they have some problems, they can make many changes and become a much better person. They might not become Gandhi overnight, but if they at least acknowledge their faults, they can begin to recognize and correct mistakes in their thinking and behavior.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Nsweet said:


> I don't know if it's emotional immaturity so much as it is conflict avoidance.


I tend to agree with this. While a lot of cheaters are probably emotionally immature, I think a lot of them (like my WS) are perhaps somewhat immature but the bigger issue is conflict avoidance.

If my WS had been totally self-absorbed throughout his life, I might go with the immature theory (he does play with his "toys" too much and spend WAY too much money on hobby stuff). But he has spent a good deal of his life giving of himself, at various stages in his worklife, as well as being very good to my aging parents (more helpful as things got bad, in fact, than my own siblings). I know about a lot of the people he's helped - not just the few "knight in shining armor" situations, but the young men he's mentored and gone out of his way to help (they far outnumber the women, thank goodness, since one of those situations turned into the affair). These young men often call him to thank him, and let him know how they're doing now that they've moved on. An emotionally immature person wouldn't be likely to do so much for others. 

But a conflict avoider may be clueless about how to "do marriage" well! Especially if he has an anxiety disorder, as my WS has. (It was mild at first, then due to medical reasons it got worse; then came the affair.) We recently started MC and started FIRST learning about how not to let our conflicts escalate: we can't address the affair yet because we've had problems talking about it more often than not when we've tried to do it on our own. We've both found the counselor's guidance really helpful. But we also addressed in counseling how NOT talking about things makes the tension build - NOT good.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

Sweet Ginger said:


> VeryHurt,
> This was very helpful. It is almost like you are talking about my husbands family.
> My question to you is, do you think they can overcome this behavior or is it too deep inside of them? And are you still with your WH?


Hi

I personally don't think that they can overcome something that has been damaged their entire life. However, he will be seeing a Psychiatrist this week.

I was told that it is possible to learn to attach and show emotions but it would at least a year and the person would have to be willing, open and be able to work hard.

VH


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

hopefulgirl said:


> An emotionally immature person wouldn't be likely to do so much for others.
> 
> .


Oh, yes they would! 

Actually, if you get a chance to read some of the WS's talking about their own changes in themselves, they will tell you that when they did these 'nice things' for others, they actually felt "ripped off" that they weren't getting anything MORE than a 'thank you' from someone. They're looking for a bigger 'reward'. 

Keep in mind that life '*OWES*' them. Since no one else is going to 'reward' them, they will reward themselves. Their motto is "I *deserve*..."

And THAT certainly isn't "mature" thinking!

Vega


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

Vega said:


> Oh, yes they would!
> 
> Actually, if you get a chance to read some of the WS's talking about their own changes in themselves, they will tell you that when they did these 'nice things' for others, they actually felt "ripped off" that they weren't getting anything MORE than a 'thank you' from someone. They're looking for a bigger 'reward'.
> 
> ...


Thank you Vega. I enjoyed your post. It really got me thinking about how the WS views life. Now, how do we spot this sooner?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

All too often you cant, after all these years I now believe the only way I will survive in life is to not become emotionally attached to anyone, sad but true.

Having some frightening experiences and realizations these past few years.

Realization #1 The need to be emotionally and financially stable enough to walk out the door at the drop of a hat.

Follow that one and everything else will just fall into place, seems to working in my favor.

But is there not a way with intellectual posed questions or scenarios given in the dating period that could help to gauge maturity and probability of that person becoming a WS? Say a person with conflict avoidance issues, could you arrange conflict in a controlled space to gauge their reactions?

Thinking caps on boys and girls, might be on to something here?


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Vega said:


> Oh, yes they would!
> 
> Actually, if you get a chance to read some of the WS's talking about their own changes in themselves, they will tell you that when they did these 'nice things' for others, they actually felt "ripped off" that they weren't getting anything MORE than a 'thank you' from someone. They're looking for a bigger 'reward'.
> 
> ...


I do see some truth in what you're saying, Vega! 

My WS does feel that "I deserve" thing to a degree; hence his extreme hobby habit, which continues to be an issue - I mentioned "money" issues on the MC's form where it asks about other problems, so the counselor knows it will be coming up eventually. (When I try to discuss it at home, my WS usually gets over the top riled up, so this is another conflict that gets avoided!)

I'm sure a lot of WS's do nice things for people then expect something more than a thank you in return, feeling "ripped off" if they don't get more. But I believe that in my WS's situation, his affair was a confluence of a worsening state in his mental health and an opportunity that presented itself in the form of a knight in shining armor scenario with a woman who let it be known that she was REALLY wanting a man. Don't get me wrong - there's NO excuse for what he did, but I'm saying that there's no serial cheating and no pattern of expectation of sex or anything else in return for the assistance my WS has given to others.

If anything, my WS was looking for more of an emotional "pain reliever" than anything else at that time; sex wasn't something that he felt he "deserved" in return for something he did to help her. She just happened to be around at that time and made herself available. Sexting and then the brief PA were more about self-medicating his mental health issues and not dealing with conflicts that he kept avoiding at home. Even though our marriage prior to the affair had much more good than bad in it, the stuff that we couldn't talk about kept us from being truly close.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I have wondered if the teenage mental process has something to do with hormones going wild. Basically, dopamine rushes that go along with the "crush" imbalance their ability to think rationally.


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## JustGrinding (Oct 26, 2012)

VeryHurt said:


> He is . . . the biggest liar on this side of the Mississippi.


Hope you live on the west side. If not, I think second-biggest is the best your husband can do.

The kind of childhood I experienced is mostly associated with serial killers. Severe physical and repeated sexual abuse that made the more "mundane" environment of constant emotional abuse desirable by comparison.

Your childhood is your childhood. Your past. Your mother and father can no more make you emotionally immature than mine could make me Joel Rifken. An adult knows the difference in right and wrong. If you decide to follow your parents'/family's poor examples, that's a reasoned choice that you made to do wrong, knowing FROM EXPERIENCE that it will hurt those closest to you. Stop trying to weasel out of accountability by blaming your choice to be selfish and immature on someone else. 

I was raised in a home that made me look forward to hell. My wife grew up in an "ideal" family environment. Guess who's the adulterer?

Stop the d__n blameshifting and take responsibility for yourself and your decisions!


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Nsweet said:


> The only thing that's going to fix a cheater is* hitting rock bottom.* Not you forcing them through therapy so they can put on show for you and act like a good little doggy long enough for you to drop the issues. Not antidepressants or the latest miracle treatments they can use as their excuse as to why they suddenly snapped. And certainly not you loving them into fidelity!
> 
> They have to hit rock bottom misery for long enough to see they have issues that are not going to go away in someone elses bed or at the bottom of a bottle or jar of pills. Those issues that stem from childhood and have only been masked with survival instincts in relationships. Ie, He/she cheats on you time and time again in order to escape perceived feelings of abandonment.
> 
> I also have to add that we choose partners with an emotional maturity level around that of our own. So you may have been a perfect match with your spouse a few years ago before kids and real life stress, but as you grew up and they didn't.... which one of you has to be the adult in this relationship and pull the lions share for both of you and which one of you just wants to be treated like a child and avoid responsibilities?


Very perceptive.


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

I have been thinking about the rock bottom saga, how low does it go? How far a fall do they need to take to make them wake up? and how do you know when they have? 

Truth is one thing thing that used to bug me, why she lied was the question, not so much what the lie entailed but what was the purpose of it? Was the reward so much better than the pain inflicted on others? Or are the lies needed to hide the ever so much more shocking truth of their real actions? It seems to make me wonder a little more about motives behind the lies more than the lies themselves. Or are some of the serial cheaters such liars that their whole lives are nothing more than a tissue of lies?

How can emotional immaturity be curbed if it has been spotted as a trait in your spouse but without them cheating yet? Can you educate them? Or does it just become a charade for public convenience when socializing?

Think I need to stop pulling this all apart in my head and do some jobs this afternoon that involve my brain to stop it melting down!!


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Racer said:


> I have wondered if the teenage mental process has something to do with hormones going wild. Basically, dopamine rushes that go along with the "crush" imbalance their ability to think rationally.


I never really gave it that much thought, but there seems to be a lot of common sense and validity to your "theory!"


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## aaroncj (Nov 10, 2011)

Interesting discussion and thanks OP for starting this thread. When I first started counseling I told my therapist that until the aftermath of her emotional affair I hadn't really stepped out of our relationship to look at it objectively. When I did that it occurred to me how self-centered my wife was. In later sessions he suggested that my wife had some sort of personality disorder, though he didn't try to suggest which one. Several months ago, our daughter, who was a psychology major and is now in med school sent me a text that said she thought her mother exhibited symptoms of avoidant personality disorder. Our daughter had no idea of her mother's unfaithfulness. She just observed her mom and her interactions with me, our family, her siblings, and socially. Though I don't think my wife has a severe case, much of the symptoms described by my daughter hit the nail on the head--including the fact that someone with APD has a tendency to idealize relationships with other people.

Following the discovery of her EA I went back and read through some of our old cards and letters to each other. What I saw was that throughout much of our early relationship and marriage I was always trying to build her up--tell her how much I loved her and how much she needed to believe in herself. In letters written in the aftermath of her affair prior to our wedding I saw myself telling her that I loved her and wanted her to do what was best for her. 

Time and again, especially in our early marriage, she would just do something without consulting me, because she wanted to, my feelings be damned. She once quit her job without even telling me she was going to do it and then went back to school full time. I was in grad school at the time and the financial impact was huge. I am not saying I wouldn't have supported her decision. It just would have been nice if she had asked what I thought or asked how we could work together to make it happen.

Not to belabor the point, but yes! I believe that for someone to cheat there has to be a significant character flaw, call it emotional immaturity, a personality disorder, or just selfishness, it's something that is lacking in that person.


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## Blacksmith01 (Aug 12, 2013)

I know that dealing with my stbxw after D-Day was and still is like dealing with a super spoiled teenager with impulse control issues. The only thing that has had any impact is tough love.


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## TimesOfChange (Mar 20, 2013)

In my case the OM last girlfriend was 16 and he 31 at the time. My EX wife used to be/is quite emotional immature, so she's been just what he's been lookin for.
A perv and a 26 year old immature woman.

So my answer is: Yes


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## "joe" (Aug 19, 2013)

aaroncj said:


> for someone to cheat there has to be a significant character flaw, call it emotional immaturity, a personality disorder, or just selfishness, it's something that is lacking in that person.


agree completely. my wife solved our marital problems by deceiving me and then leaving, i'd asked her to be always open about her feelings but this is what she chose to do. the therapist heard me out and then pointed to borderline p.d., and so much in the marriage made sense then.


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