# Getting Divorced?! What happened?!



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

So if you read my other thread from a few weeks ago: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/45508-doing-too-much-vs-serving-your-wife.html

You'll see that my wife and I had some work to do, both of us. I've learned alot about myself from TAM in terms of not accepting bad behavior and what not. My wife and I were working through things, and though we had some struggles, I felt pretty good about where we were at and the direction we were going (progress was being made).

This last week seems like a whirlwind, but things have gone from pretty good, to not so good, to WTF all very quickly.

The run down is that as of the end of my last thread, I was doing what a lot of people suggested. Spending more time on myself, not validating her constantly, withdrawing the energy I was spending that was done with hopes of reciprocity.

Things were going OK with that. I feel like my needs were going mostly unmet in terms of affection and appreciation, but we were at least loving to each other and having some fun together. One thing I noticed though is that her "overwhelmo-meter" was creeping out and she has been starting to lash out at me in frustration more frequently. I have been doing a pretty good job (failed a few times) of just staying calm and expressing calmly, "There's no reason to talk to me like that."

Fast forward to last week. We were at her BILs house. There were a few incidents where I was doing something nice for her, because she was getting stressed out, and she ended up lashing out at me in her stressed out state. Each time I calmly let her know that I was trying to help her, and there's no reason to talk to me disrespectfully.

The straw that broke the camel's back was the day we left to go home. I woke up before anyone else and took my daughter to get breakfast. While I was out I decided to get something for my wife as well. On the way home she called me and said, "did you get anything for my brother?" I told her no, was about to explain why, and before I could respond she said, "That's so rude."

Well admittedly this was not one of the times I was calm, i was already frustrated over the few days before. I cussed at her and told her, "I'm trying to do you a favor and do something nice for you and you tell me I'm rude." Then I hung up.

She didn't talk to me for the rest of the morning or afternoon. On the car ride home, I told her very calmly why it upset me, that it made me feel disrespected and unappreciated that she would criticize my attempts to do something nice for her instead of showing gratitude. This is when sh*t hit the fan. Instead of apologizing, or showing empathy, she started attacking me. She started telling me about how I always do that to her, I'm too sensitive, I didn't give her a chance to apologize, I acted way out of line. I stopped her and said, "look there's no reason to get defensive, I'm not here to attack you or make you feel bad, I'm trying to let you know why I'm upset." She did not let up with the cynical comments and attacks. I told her, "You can tell me what's bothering you in a calm, respectful manner, there's no reason to be disrespectful. If you can't do that than we should stop talking."

This set her off even more, this dance continued for quite some time. Her attacking me and making cynical offhand remarks that can't be defended, "You are acting like this just to hurt me." "You only care about yourself" "You're way worse of a person than I am." "you're so controlling". Me telling her it wasn't necessary to attack me, that the conversation is over.

After about an hour of her not letting up, of calling me controlling (a trigger for me because of her infidelity), attacking me, I told her, "I think when we get back we should look at preparing ourselves for a split. That way if this doesn't work you won't be shocked by the change of lifestyle" (she got married young and never lived on her own, she gets everything she wants and has no idea what it's like to be broke or have to live on your own).

This angered her even more and she went on even further. I told her the conversation was over, but she continued berating me verbally for another long period of time (30 minutes maybe? felt like hours). I saw her behavior for what it was, manipulation. She's used to in these cases, me taking the bait and either getting mad at her or having to waste effort defending myself. I didn't bite the entire time. I stayed extremely calm and just told her attacking me was unnecessary, I was just expressing my feelings.

The next few days were bad. She was cold and bitter. We had a talk about what happened, I video taped it so I could confirm how we were communicating (I wanted to make sure I wasn't being an a$$hole when I thought I was being nice, and wanted to see if her reactions were justified). The conversation started off OK. We talked calmly about what happened, though nothing was really getting resolved.

Towards the end she did something that was a microcosm of our communication issues. I mentioned something calmly and she came back and said, "You would do that too! you're not so perfect." I asked her why she was defensive and attacking me when I was just expressing my feelings. She again went on the offensive and starting attacking me again about how I'm not perfect and so on. I stopped her and said, "look, you know what you said wasn't necessary or respectful, you admitted it. Why don't you just apologize and move on instead of feeling like you have to attack me." She didn't understand and thought I was being controlling.

I did not want her to think I was picking on her, she expressed some unhappiness with me in our marriage (which I thought was total BS). I asked her what I could do to make her feel like she was in a successful, happy marriage. She started giving vague statements like, "Treat me better" "don't make me feel like crap all the time" "be more involved with the family"

Every time she said something I asked her to clarify, be specific. She would get upset and start attacking me again, "I'm not like you, I don't write everything down. I don't remember every little mistake like you do." I just stayed calm and said, "If you want me to meet your needs, you're going to have to express them so there is no ambiguity. I need to know exactly what I have to do so I can know if I'm doing a good job or not." We were able to give one specific example, not getting on my phone around the family. I told her I would work on that. Then she said, "Stop making me feel like crap all the time" and I asked her to be more specific on how I do that and what I can do to stop. She made the same comments above again, I repeated mine. But at this point, she snapped and really went nutso.

She went into a tirade about how horrible of a husband I am, how mean I am, how hateful I am, how I don't love her, how I am controlling and manipulative and need everything done my way. I couldn't understand it at all. I watched her switch flip right there from upset to legitimate crazy person. I nipped it in the bud and said, "There is no need to attack me, I'm trying to find out how I can show you I love you. If you can't talk to me respectfully and calmly, we need to end this conversation." She didn't let up so I said, "OK we're done, I'll be ready to talk when you calm down." This made her even more upset and she started hurling more insults at me and degrading me. I just got my keys and left.

When I came home, I wanted to watch the tape with her, I found out she had deleted the taping of our conversation. She said I was going to try to use it against her and that I was just acting the whole time. Her behavior got even worse, and we were not able to talk anymore. She saw the lawyer information on my computer that I was looking at and instead of talking to me about it, she just said things like, "I'm not getting a job, you're being selfish and only thinking about yourself not the kids." I let her know that all I'm looking for is to be treated respectfully, that I definitely don't want a divorce. She again went back to calling me controlling and hateful and manipulative and selfish.

Then she did something I don't understand, she called MY mom and asked her for advice. I wasn't going to bring our families into this but I guess she felt like she had no one to talk to (she hides things from her family).

Seeing her actions over the days, that she was spending more time on looking at apartments and furniture than talking about what was going on, I got really discouraged. I called her mom to talk about what was going on, because I know that she usually calls her mom after the fact and then tells her how horrible I am, and then her mom feeds into her state of mind. I told her mom that I was moving towards divorce but that I didn't really want to go through with it, but that I could not take the disrespect anymore and it was affecting my health.

After I got off the phone with her mom I saw a text from my wife. It said, "I think we just need some time apart." I kind of flipped out at this, not to her, internally. With the controlling talk, and the unhappy talk, and the coldness and cruelty, and now talking about "time apart", I triggered bad. I called her mom back and did something that looking back I should not have done and I am truly sorry for. I told her mom that my wife had cheated on me a few months ago. My MIL is the one person my wife did not want to know about that. Her Mom is extremely religious and they never talk about sex or periods or anything deep like that, so it was quite the blow for her.

I got home and my wife was really upset I called her mom (she didn't know that I told her about the infidelity yet). She was supposed to watch the kids but she asked my mom to come over to watch them so she could go out with her friend.

Given the past cheating, where she asked my mom to come watch the kids so she could go outside the house to text message with her EA partner, I did not want my mom to come over. I told my mom not to come, and then I told my wife that I told my mom not to come (didn't want her to think I was being sneaky). She went off the hook at that point. She started cussing and screaming and she just left the house. I felt bad for her at that point, because my wife needed some get out of the house time (stress of fighting and the kids was getting to her) and my mom is basically the only person that could babysit for her.

She left the house and I had no idea where she was or where she was going, I called her and told her I needed to tell her something else important as well. I let her know that I told her mom about the cheating. She was upset before but at this point she went justifiably ballistic. She just screamed and cried. I had really hurt her on that one. She came home in a tirade and told me and my mom (who came over to watch the kids so I could leave) to get out of the house. My mom was trying to defuse the situation as best she could but my wife got in her face and physically threatened her. My mom was shocked and really upset by that. She's done that to me but never to anyone else.

I asked her to talk that night, I wanted to apologize about telling her mom. She told me she didn't want to hear my apology and she did more of the attacking stuff. When I calmly told her to stop, she kept at it, and I left again. That was wednesday night. Yesterday came and she was cold and bitter all morning, I tried to stay positive and not give her silent treatment or anything. She started to loosen up a bit, and I could tell by the time she had to leave for work, that she was ready to talk about the whole week. She gets this attitude and look in her eye when she realizes she was wrong about things and she wants to apologize. She had that.

Fast forward a few hours, she tells me she wants to go running with her friend after work, I said ok. She ends up coming home at 12, and she goes straight to sleep in our daughters bed. I, dumbly, tried to be Casanova and pick her up and take her to our bed and she told me to leave her alone.

Just the latest antics with her controlling talk and break talk and looking for jobs and apartments instead of trying to resolve this tell me something is up.

The problem is, I am snooping like mad and there is nothing. For her to be cheating, she would have had to have called someone on her friends phone, and her friend would have had to sit there and listen to them talk. I know she was with her friend last night, all night from work to when she got home. They went to a crowded local family spot to hang out for about an hour, then they went to the store, then they went back to the church parking lot for half hour. Receipts confirm she bought toenail polish before they went to parking lot, so I can only assume they gave themselves pedis (will verify her feet when she wakes up). Here is what I have been up all night thinking:

1. Her friend is letting her use her phone and she's calling a guy
2. They flirted with guys while they were out, even though they were at a local family place
3. Her friend is feeding into her anti-marriage feelings, making her not want to work on stuff.

I feel like SOMETHING is going on because like I said, she was being more cordial and opening up before work, and then after work she comes home late and goes right to another bed. Also, yesterday there was a moment where I ALMOST touched her hand and she shot it back like it was going to burn her. Reminded me of after she cheated. I know how that looks, but keep in mind we've been together 24/7 since monday, so it would have had to have been tuesday at some point, and I know her whereabouts for the entire day (work,home while kids are at nap and I'm there at lunch, home watching kids, at her friends house). If she physically cheated on me, it would have been a crazy pick up a guy you met one time at her friend's house, while her and her husband were there. I will never say never now, but it is highly unlikely that happened.

Anyway this turned way longer and way more ranty/theraputic than I wanted. I'm really hurting now, reliving all these hurts from before, killing myself that she's up to no good again. My heart breaks for her and for us even if splitting up is the right thing. I truly don't WANT a divorce, I feel like I'm being pushed into it. Please give me some advice.

Also, my plan as of now is to go over to her friend's house and have a serious talk about what happened last night. We're on really good terms and she is actually into me, I think if I talk to her right she will tell me what's going on. If someone thinks this is a bad idea, please talk me out of it pronto.

I'm thinking it's a bad idea because it is kind of a desperate action. I'm thinking it's a good idea because if she is cheating again, I will find out (I'm good at reading her friends lies now that I've had practice). If they were just talking smack, I think I can get her to tell me what my wife is thinking and saying to her, and convince her friend that I want to stay married and she can be on my side instead of feeding the monster.


----------



## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

I don't even know what to say. Why do you want this marriage? Honestly. What are you getting? It sounds like hell to me. Worried about cheating, fighting sun up to sun down - not to resolve anything but for her to spout off on you and use you as an outlet to spew her internal unhappiness and frustration all over you. I personally think you might be relieved with some alone time. She needs to learn how to deal with life things (kids, house chores, money management etc) and handling her emotions on her own. No you to prop her and be her emotional punching bag. And for you, you might need some peace. I've been on the receiving end of a relentless tirade and I just craved peace.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

golfergirl said:


> I don't even know what to say. Why do you want this marriage? Honestly. What are you getting? It sounds like hell to me. Worried about cheating, fighting sun up to sun down - not to resolve anything but for her to spout off on you and use you as an outlet to spew her internal unhappiness and frustration all over you. I personally think you might be relieved with some alone time. She needs to learn how to deal with life things (kids, house chores, money management etc) and handling her emotions on her own. No you to prop her and be her emotional punching bag. And for you, you might need some peace. I've been on the receiving end of a relentless tirade and I just craved peace.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She doesn't act like this all the time. Its triggered by stress or sadness or when she feels bad about herself. I really love her and I've seen her change so much and improve, we've been so close lately. In some ways it makes it even harder. I am losing my best friend. I know I will move on and be happy if we split, but I would rather see this work. We could be so happy


----------



## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

COguy said:


> She doesn't act like this all the time. Its triggered by stress or sadness or when she feels bad about herself. I really love her and I've seen her change so much and improve, we've been so close lately. In some ways it makes it even harder. I am losing my best friend. I know I will move on and be happy if we split, but I would rather see this work. We could be so happy


I don't mean permanent split, I mean a chance for her to appreciate what she has.
We all have stress and sadness in our lives, it is no excuse to treat someone like crap. If she can be decent to the clerk at the store, she has control. Why can't she exercise that control with you?

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

Can I ask your motivation in telling her mom? There's no undo on that one and for all the crap she's pulling, that may be the nail in the marital coffin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

I don't understand how someone like your wife can act so carelessly and disrespectfully towards her husband. 
You're too tolerant.


----------



## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Is that the woman you married? Has she always been this way?

Sometimes our spouses change and not for the better. Have you considered the possibility that this isn't just stress induced? Given the sheer magnitude and frequency of her verbal attacks and threatening of your mother I would say that this has become a character trait rather than just marriage woes.

Can you live with this new character trait? She's not listening to you when you approach things reasonably. She didn't listen to your mother, probably won't listen to hers either. 

And then going out to see her friend....ughh. I just don't like when a woman is in a fragile state of mind about a relationship and she goes to speak to a "Female Friend". It just scares me that she got toxic advice.


----------



## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Don't even know where to begin with this one.

Have you thought about the next steps? Legal seperation and what that may lead to (additional cheating by your WS)?

I too wonder what you see in this woman. It seems that these have been traits of hers all along but now they've become more dominant than her others. Has she been evaluated?


----------



## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Toffer said:


> Don't even know where to begin with this one.
> 
> Have you thought about the next steps? Legal seperation and what that may lead to (additional cheating by your WS)?
> 
> I too wonder what you see in this woman. It seems that these have been traits of hers all along but now they've become more dominant than her others. Has she been evaluated?


More important, what does he see in himself.......


----------



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

golfergirl said:


> Can I ask your motivation in telling her mom? There's no undo on that one and for all the crap she's pulling, that may be the nail in the marital coffin.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't think it through. Thought it would help but honestly it was probably selfish motivation. I feel really bad about it. Wish I could apologize properly but she won't hear it now.


----------



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Her behavior exists because ive allowed her to our entire marriage. This is the first time I'm not accepting it and she is not reacting well. As gg said, she can treat people well, its not a control issue, she only speaks to me like this.


----------



## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Forget about apologizing. What you did to her is not comparable to ALL THE THINGS SHE DID TO YOU, [including the cheatig].
She has a LOT MORE to apologize about, so unless she does that then don't think about it. To some point, she deserved it.


----------



## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

COguy said:


> Her behavior exists because ive allowed her to our entire marriage. This is the first time I'm not accepting it and she is not reacting well. As gg said, she can treat people well, its not a control issue, *she only speaks to me like this*.


Oh God!

You've spoiled her too much. She's acting like a child.

It may sound stupid to you but that's the way I act with my mom. I'm a spoiled, only child and I act carelessly and disrespectfully to her. This is not something I'm proud of but that's the truth.
I'll be nice/lovely/caring to everyone in the world, except to my mom because I know that no matter what I do she'll always love me. I KNOW THAT'S UNFAIR but that's how it is. I've taken her for granted and your wife has done the same with you.
Yours is not a husband-wife relationship. Is more like father-child relationship.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I"m so sorry for your pain, 

Your post reasonates with me. 
My H also has an "inability" to be accountable for his actions, or to apologize. Behaves horribly, and when called out, will go defensive and say "you do this and this" and just will NOT address the behavior and take responsibility for it.

One thing I found that helped... was the marriage builders stuff.
The agreement on how to treat each other, and the conversations need to follow the script. Redirect, redirect. 

Defensive comment... "I will answer to that when we are finished discussing what I am upset about"... write it down if you have to.

My H also did the "tell me exactly what I need to do to make you happy" speeches. I"m sorry, but this is not helpful.

Both of you feel disrespected, the spiral of treating each other badly only gets worse. 

There is no question of "exactly what you need to do". You've forgotten how, but you can learn it again.

I feel like an ad for MB's... but it has it nailed. 
How should you treat each other?

Don't do these...
Selfish Demands
Disrepectful judgements
Angry outburts
Dishonesty
Annoying Habits
Independent Behavior

Make sure you meet these needs:
Affection
Sexual fulfillment
conversation
recreational companionship
honesty and openness
physical attractiveness
financial support
domestic support
family committment
admiration

Unfortunately, the biggest hurdle is in forgiving past behaviors and holding resentment over what was done. I'm not sure how you get through to her, it seems overwhelming when your partner doesn't seem to have the basic life skills to even discuss something without getting angry or defensive. 

A neutral third party.

I hope things calm down for you. Take care of you.


----------



## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

I'm not sure that I see telling her parents the same way you do. Sorry, but I've lived with someone who can be very much like your wife (minus the infidelity) for a very long time. Let me guess - she would never talk to her parents like she talked to you or your mom...? May be that her mom is the only opinion she respects enough to care about. 

COguy, there are some people like you who try to see the good in everything and everybody. Then, there are some people who obsess over the things that are not quite right, even when the relationship is great. They dwell on these wrongs, and lash out when pressed. Sadly, twenty or more years into the marriage, those like you can look back on all the good that has happened in the marriage, and those like her will see twenty years of hurt and misunderstanding. It took a period of moving ahead to divorce for my wife to finally see how much hurt the lashing out and critical nature did. Even with that, I had to re-adjust my expectations about our marriage potential. Some people just simply cannot appreciate what they have in marriage because their feelings about themself won't allow it. This is a good time, I believe, for you to think and reflect on what your marriage really is, versus what you've always tried to make it become.


----------



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Halien said:


> I'm not sure that I see telling her parents the same way you do. Sorry, but I've lived with someone who can be very much like your wife (minus the infidelity) for a very long time. Let me guess - she would never talk to her parents like she talked to you or your mom...? May be that her mom is the only opinion she respects enough to care about.
> 
> COguy, there are some people like you who try to see the good in everything and everybody. Then, there are some people who obsess over the things that are not quite right, even when the relationship is great. They dwell on these wrongs, and lash out when pressed. Sadly, twenty or more years into the marriage, those like you can look back on all the good that has happened in the marriage, and those like her will see twenty years of hurt and misunderstanding. It took a period of moving ahead to divorce for my wife to finally see how much hurt the lashing out and critical nature did. Even with that, I had to re-adjust my expectations about our marriage potential. Some people just simply cannot appreciate what they have in marriage because their feelings about themself won't allow it. This is a good time, I believe, for you to think and reflect on what your marriage really is, versus what you've always tried to make it become.


Thank you so much. For some reason this really hit me hard.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I see a lot of vilification being done by your wife, she has all of these big general feelings that she can't back up with facts. It's because she has built up these feelings in her own head, probably due to the infidelity (as you know by now WS's will vilify the BS in order to feel justified for cheating). The question is why it's popping up again and if you pretty much ruled out further infidelity then it's probably being replayed in her mind and she wants it back.


I wish I could tell you how to get your wife to move out of crazy town but I don't see how. The threat of divorce is starting to become an empty threat and that can be really dangerous.


----------



## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Is possible she's in contact with the OM via work or a burner phone? Could he have possibly contacted her at work and she's renewed at least phone calls?

Something seems to have really worked up her stress and guilt levels. Everything you wrote had red-flags through it.

the quick temper, the blame shifting, the aggressiveness. All the kind of things you'd see from renewed contact.


----------



## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

I agree with your wife that you should had brought her brother something too. That aside, I think her infidelity is still an issue.

I took a quick look at some of your earlier posts, I may have missed it, but I didnt see where you two really resolved the infidelity. She needs to be truly remorseful, was she? I see in TAM that it takes a few years for the BS to readjust; has it been a few years since her infidelity?

Telling her mom was okay. Now her mother has more context as to why you 2 fight.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

COguy said:


> I'm really hurting now, reliving all these hurts from before, killing myself that she's up to no good again. My heart breaks for her and for us even if splitting up is the right thing. I truly don't WANT a divorce, I feel like I'm being pushed into it. Please give me some advice.
> 
> Also, my plan as of now is to go over to her friend's house and have a serious talk about what happened last night. We're on really good terms and she is actually into me, I think if I talk to her right she will tell me what's going on. If someone thinks this is a bad idea, please talk me out of it pronto.


COguy,

I don't exactly see how you are being pushed into divorce at this exact juncture, except maybe pushing yourself. I have had similar experiences in my marriage but we have been able to get through them (so far).

My first advice would be to not discuss your marital problems with anyone other than a trained professional counselor. This includes parents and friends. My second advice would be to find your way to forgive all the hurts from the past. Holding on to these hurts, as justifiable as it appears, prevents you from thinking clearly and acting strongly. Finally, I would suggest that you remove any expectation that your wife will respond rationally to your rational behavior. Maybe some day, but at any given moment this is asking for more than she can give.

If we could agree that your wife is behaving in an immature manner, what age would you guess that she is operating from?


----------



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

aug said:


> I agree with your wife that you should had brought her brother something too. That aside, I think her infidelity is still an issue.
> 
> I took a quick look at some of your earlier posts, I may have missed it, but I didnt see where you two really resolved the infidelity. She needs to be truly remorseful, was she? I see in TAM that it takes a few years for the BS to readjust; has it been a few years since her infidelity?
> 
> Telling her mom was okay. Now her mother has more context as to why you 2 fight.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/39708-my-story.html


----------



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> Is possible she's in contact with the OM via work or a burner phone? Could he have possibly contacted her at work and she's renewed at least phone calls?
> 
> Something seems to have really worked up her stress and guilt levels. Everything you wrote had red-flags through it.
> 
> the quick temper, the blame shifting, the aggressiveness. All the kind of things you'd see from renewed contact.


I won't say it's impossible, just very unlikely. She works at a church part time, they don't have phones there. The only way this is underground is if her friend is giving her her phone and she's using it during work to facilitate phone contact. Just very unlikely at this point that she would resort to such extremes. Her stories match what I find, so I am very confident that it's not going on, not that confident that I won't continue to dig, but just not thinking that's the issue.


----------



## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I see your wife as a person that's feeling awfully guilty you've decided to reconcile with her. She sounds like a person that doesn't feel worthy of your love, and she lashes out at you for it. It sounds like it's been building for a while. When you stopped being so attentive to her it put the focus back on herself and she doesn't want to need you in the way she does. It makes her feel weak. This is where the 'you're controlling' statements come from.

I don't know what to say, other than I'm so sorry things have taken such a sour turn. She can hold your sin of telling her mother of her cheating over your head, but seriously it is yet another consequence of her poor judgment and actions. All fingers point right back to her, no matter how she justifies it in her mind. 

She wants to find fault in you to make her feelings of anger and resentment and guilt okay. She can't.


----------



## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

COGuy, I'm sorry you're having to deal with all this. You seem like a stand up guy. At least you'll know that you did all you could to help save the marriage... even to the point of forgiving infidelity.

I don't really think it was a mistake for you to tell your MIL about the PA. Your wife doesn't need to go home and be coddled as if she's this innocent creature with this overbearing/controlling husband. She bears more than her share of blame in all this, and she needs her attitudes towards the marriage/divorce kept in check as your divorce is finalized.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

COguy said:


> Her behavior exists because ive allowed her to our entire marriage. This is the first time I'm not accepting it and she is not reacting well. As gg said, she can treat people well, its not a control issue, she only speaks to me like this.


I really think this is a matter of her running out of control emotionally, you have allowed this, and she has taken you for granted for Y E A R S ... you said she hasn't ever been on her own, you have always been there to provide for her... she really has no idea what she will be facing if the 2 of you split. But that reality, that threat of a reality....may just open her eyes, some times we need to land in the gutter to "look up" and realize what we have right in front of us. 



> *Halien said*: COguy, there are some people like you who try to see the good in everything and everybody. Then, there are some people who obsess over the things that are not quite right, even when the relationship is great. They dwell on these wrongs, and lash out when pressed. Sadly, twenty or more years into the marriage, those like you can look back on all the good that has happened in the marriage, and those like her will see twenty years of hurt and misunderstanding. It took a period of moving ahead to divorce for my wife to finally see how much hurt the lashing out and critical nature did. Even with that, I had to re-adjust my expectations about our marriage potential. Some people just simply cannot appreciate what they have in marriage because their feelings about themself won't allow it. This is a good time, I believe, for you to think and reflect on what your marriage really is, versus what you've always tried to make it become.


THIS ^^^^ :iagree:


----------



## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

Browncoat said:


> COGuy, I'm sorry you're having to deal with all this. You seem like a stand up guy. At least you'll know that you did all you could to help save the marriage... even to the point of forgiving infidelity.
> 
> I don't really think it was a mistake for you to tell your MIL about the PA. Your wife doesn't need to go home and be coddled as if she's this innocent creature with this overbearing/controlling husband. She bears more than her share of blame in all this, and she needs her attitudes towards the marriage/divorce kept in check as your divorce is finalized.


After thing more about it, I change my opinion. If your wife is blaming all on you and your MIL is involved in counseling your wife, she should have the whole story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I just reread your story. My gut says something new is up. I suspect a secret phone, or even a new guy. Possibly someone that has started visiting the church? Could the OM have sent her a phone to her work?

She was very sneaky last time, her actions look like its back on, sorry, but it all points there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Coguy,
Your initial post was quite striking to me. Your pattern with your wife is:
- she is hostile aggressive and you try to defuse her and get her to stop
- she continues
- instead of being assertive you let he persist until you are suddenly cussing at her

You still don't understand that repeatedly allowing her to lash out at you, where the only consequence for her is, please don't speak to me that way, Shortly Followed by you doing something nice for her. 
Her: abuse
You: defuse
You: then pander to her with acts of service
Until you explode and cuss at her. 

You are constantly triggering be aide She should be making up to you and yet you are always making up to her. Even though she cheated.



QUOTE=COguy;756250]I won't say it's impossible, just very unlikely. She works at a church part time, they don't have phones there. The only way this is underground is if her friend is giving her her phone and she's using it during work to facilitate phone contact. Just very unlikely at this point that she would resort to such extremes. Her stories match what I find, so I am very confident that it's not going on, not that confident that I won't continue to dig, but just not thinking that's the issue.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

> So to make a long story short, I have chosen to forgive her because I have seen from her actions that she is truly remorseful. And that she was lost and in pain and didn’t have the emotional maturity to handle it properly. More importantly, she has recognized her depression and emotional shortcomings and begun working on fixing them. And as far as showing, though I commented that sometimes I feel like there is a spark missing when she looks at me, she has made extreme efforts and progress on showing me love, respect, and working on my needs. From the effort side, I couldn’t really ask more, and I see her making improvements every day.


 Take from your post. She is a manipulative abusive cheater. maybe the cheating stopped, maybe. The manipulation and abuse never stopped. She is a broken individual.


----------



## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Coguy,

Just wanted to update your thread to let you know that my thoughts are with you as you are going through this struggle. You've always been a positive voice in my own threads, and I hope you are able to find peace through what is going on in your relationship now.


----------



## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> I just reread your story. My gut says something new is up. I suspect a secret phone, or even a new guy. Possibly someone that has started visiting the church? Could the OM have sent her a phone to her work?
> 
> She was very sneaky last time, her actions look like its back on, sorry, but it all points there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

COguy, why hasn't she gone NC with this toxic friend who isn't a friend of the marriage? Is this the same TF that was enabling her affair? 

It literally looks like she's doing EVERYTHING she can to push your buttons and picking fights. It's almost as if she's trying to justify something to herself. Add in going out with her TF, and then physically recoilling from you, just like the way she acted in her affair. COguy, it looks like the red flags are back. It doesn't seem as if she's remorseful at all.


----------



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Halien said:


> Coguy,
> 
> Just wanted to update your thread to let you know that my thoughts are with you as you are going through this struggle. You've always been a positive voice in my own threads, and I hope you are able to find peace through what is going on in your relationship now.


Thanks man. A lot has gone on this weekend. I don't have the energy to post an update right now. I'll probably do an update Monday. We went to counseling and go back Monday. For now we're still working on things.


----------



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree:
> 
> COguy, why hasn't she gone NC with this toxic friend who isn't a friend of the marriage? Is this the same TF that was enabling her affair?
> 
> It literally looks like she's doing EVERYTHING she can to push your buttons and picking fights. It's almost as if she's trying to justify something to herself. Add in going out with her TF, and then physically recoilling from you, just like the way she acted in her affair. COguy, it looks like the red flags are back. It doesn't seem as if she's remorseful at all.


this isn't the same friend that's off limits.


----------



## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

COguy said:


> Thanks man. A lot has gone on this weekend. I don't have the energy to post an update right now. I'll probably do an update Monday. We went to counseling and go back Monday. For now we're still working on things.


In relating to her, I'd suggest taking a look at what MEM is describing as the pattern of the conversations and realize that you can talk to her in a very deliberate manner, with a tone that reinforces your self-respect and diffuses her anger. The overall anger between the two of you during these times makes it easier for someone like her to wind herself up beyond being approachable, when it comes to getting her to look at the situation rationally.


----------



## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

COguy, good luck with the counseling.
However, should things not work out and you end up splitting, I want you to know that although you will still have memories of how things went south with your ex, you will eventually come to appreciate the fact that you will no longer be financially supporting her or her affairs and you will be far better off, even if you end up losing most of what you had earned during the marriage.


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> COguy,
> 
> I don't exactly see how you are being pushed into divorce at this exact juncture, except maybe pushing yourself. I have had similar experiences in my marriage but we have been able to get through them (so far).
> 
> ...


COguy, I admittedly have not read your whole story, but I can appreciate this advice. And MEM's.

My own marriage struggles with several similarities as yours and I think I have some similarities to your wife in my behavior towards my H... And my H is the one who has betrayed me. (I'm not spoiled though, although on some levels I could be). Some of the ways your arguments unfold specifically stood out to me, and the calls to the parents.. that was always a fun aftermath. 

I wish you the best.


----------



## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

COguy said:


> "look there's no reason to get defensive, I'm not here to attack you or make you feel bad, I'm trying to let you know why I'm upset." She did not let up with the cynical comments and attacks. I told her, "You can tell me what's bothering you in a calm, respectful manner, there's no reason to be disrespectful. If you can't do that than we should stop talking."


I may be way off base here so disregard what I am saying if I am but talking to her this way comes across as a little condescending to me. If I was really pissed off I think this would just piss me off worse. You end up on the high road for sure but it seems to be driving her deeper down the low road.


----------



## ZacThomas (Mar 5, 2012)

Your situation is pathetic. You must go to marriage counselor and take couple therapy. May be this will make your relation work. God bless you.


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

COGuy .....I found your post upsetting. I'm so very sorry to hear that you're going through this. 

Despite your regrets of speaking with your MIL, the way you handled everything else sounded mature and calm. I think it's going to hit your wife very hard when/if she has to take a good look at her behavior. I don't really have anything to offer. There's already been some great words offered your way, that I wouldn't have been able to conjure up anyway. I just want to let you know I read your post and you are being thought of.


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Paulination said:


> I may be way off base here so disregard what I am saying if I am but talking to her this way comes across as a little condescending to me. If I was really pissed off I think this would just piss me off worse. You end up on the high road for sure but it seems to be driving her deeper down the low road.


In my opinion, tone can make a huge difference with virtually anything said. But .....I respectfully disagree. I think that was her opportunity to catch herself in that very moment with him and take a breath. That was her moment to listen to him. It's my feeling that when ego and positioning is more important than listening to our loved one, that's when we continue to flare rather than respect what we have just heard. (Him telling her he wasn't attacking her and requesting she talk to him in a respectful manner). That moment was the chance for her to approach things differently. It's not always easy for someone to do that when their head is in that ego-driven state (for lack of better term) but it's worth giving them the chance to, and at the same time to communicate boundaries of respect.


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Halien said:


> In relating to her, I'd suggest taking a look at what MEM is describing as the pattern of the conversations and realize that you can talk to her in a very deliberate manner, with a tone that reinforces your self-respect and diffuses her anger. The overall anger between the two of you during these times makes it easier for someone like her to wind herself up beyond being approachable, when it comes to getting her to look at the situation rationally.


good point (and obviously MEM too).


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

COguy,

I agree with Mayhem and Shaggy that if she hasn't started up something new, she's feeling the need for more "butterflies." You're in the way of that, so you're resented. Any old excuse will do. 

One thing I've never really figured out about Churchian women: is their adultery a product of their apostasy that's already going on under the surface or is the apostasy a result of the banging sex and high they get in the adultery. Either way, if you want your kids raised in church, you need to maximize your custody. I think there are more strange men and less church in your wife's future. Thus saith the Machiavelli.

Your wife was your first, so that means you were pretty "sold out" as they used to say at church camp, but were you her first?


----------



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Wanted to give everyone an update. Lot of stuff has gone down, haven't really felt like posting all the details.

Talked to my neighbor, who is a counsellor, and talked to my counsellor, and did some more reading at bpdfamily.com .

Based on her recent dealings with me I am thinking more and more that she either has BPD, or that she has enough of the traits of it to make our relationship very difficult for me.

She has been ANGRY with me, and the calmer and more rational I get the angrier and more spiteful she gets.

I am moving out monday (just separation for now), and of course now she is lamenting what is happening. I just can't deal with the roller coasters anymore.

Gave her the info to the counsellor in our area that is supposed to be really good at dealing with BPD, told her that while we're separated it's the only thing I want her to do to move our marriage forward. I made a list of things I will be working on (individual counseling, working out/eating right, praying every day). I was initially against separation as I viewed it as just a delay to divorce, but my friend (who is a counsellor) said that with her mindset it may be good just to get out of the house for a few weeks so I can stop giving her reasons to hate me, and just commit to working on things on our own and checking in every few weeks. Hopefully it triggers rock bottom for her and she can start getting help.

It's a real roller coaster for me though. At times I'm devastated and can't imagine losing my wife or not seeing my kids every day. Other times, I'm really strong and kind of annoyed that I'm still in this mess. The roller coaster is what kills me...

Anyway thank you all for your support and advice. It is very beneficial to hear all the perspectives, a lot of you have given me courage and reminded me that I am a good guy and my feelings are not abnormal.


----------



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

recent_cloud said:


> :bunny:your posts remind me of earlier days
> 
> and one of the very first couples who asked for my assistance
> 
> ...


What was the result? What was your advice?


----------



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Wow, thought we could at least handle the separation amicably.  Everything is a war zone.

I've been praying to stay compassionate and show love to her during this. I've been trying extra hard to be nice throughout the ordeal.

When I act nice, she tells me I'm being fake. When we disagree, I'm being hateful. I see her lashing out and I try to just break the cycle and I get attacked.

I don't really have any desire to stay married now. We have a counseling appointment on thursday but at this point I'm not interested in staying together. She would have to be showing some serious lifelong changes for me to want to jump back into this pool.

I was thinking today how this is just like her cheating. I remember trying to so hard to make her love me, and then just get constantly rejected and attacked. Then of course when I finally move out she turns into Suzy Sunshine. I tried explaining how her actions were hurting me a few days ago, how it triggered the pain of the affair. She got really hateful, said some really horrible things to me. Things like I should just get over it, she doesn't accept my triggers, etc.

I think that tirade she had confirmed for me that she may have BPD or at least some of the major traits.

I feel bad for her because I know she's not a bad person. I can see from her screwed up point of view that she sees me abandoning her and rejecting her and it really hurts her. She can't imagine that I really care about her and am being nice because I genuinely love her as a person.


----------



## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

You can't argue with a sick mind. You can't reason with one either. If she truly has BPD, it doesn't matter how you approach her in this.

Telling you to 'get over it' is insensitive and dismissive all at the same time. If the shoe was on the other foot, I bet she would feel totally different. I don't blame you for wanting out. There's only so much disrespect you can take before enough is enough.

And remember being Mr Nice Guy is really what got you here in the first place. You need to get really angry and use that to move forward. She let you down.


----------



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

A Bit Much said:


> You can't argue with a sick mind. You can't reason with one either. If she truly has BPD, it doesn't matter how you approach her in this.
> 
> Telling you to 'get over it' is insensitive and dismissive all at the same time. If the shoe was on the other foot, I bet she would feel totally different. I don't blame you for wanting out. There's only so much disrespect you can take before enough is enough.
> 
> And remember being Mr Nice Guy is really what got you here in the first place. You need to get really angry and use that to move forward. She let you down.


I guess to me I see her as an abused puppy. She got kicked as a pup so now she sits alone in the corner wimpering. Of course when you go to help her, she lashes out and tries to bite. But you know it's not their fault they act like that.


----------



## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

COguy said:


> I guess to me I see her as an abused puppy. She got kicked as a pup so now she sits alone in the corner wimpering. Of course when you go to help her, she lashes out and tries to bite. But you know it's not their fault they act like that.


But she has to want to help herself, and there is no evidence of that. You cannot fix her; she is only dragging you down with her into the quick sand.


----------



## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

COguy said:


> Wow, thought we could at least handle the separation amicably. Everything is a war zone.
> 
> I've been praying to stay compassionate and show love to her during this. I've been trying extra hard to be nice throughout the ordeal.
> 
> ...


When things first blew up this time, she was spending unnaccounted-for time with her friend. With the past infidelity, do you feel that her time with her friend raises any red flags?


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Seems to me, the best thing you can do right now is have love and compassion for yourself. Start there.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree with the idea that you need to show love and compassion for yourself... and for your children. They do not need to see this going on.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

recent Cloud makes a very good point. Your wife is miserable and does not know how to communicate this or what she needs to fix it. Her desire for a separation is to get away from the misery. It might work for her.

She has every right to her feelings, they are real and valid. If only she had someone in her life who cold help her learn to express exactly what is wrong and what she needs.

The same goes for you.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

COguy said:


> Wow, thought we could at least handle the separation amicably. Everything is a war zone.
> 
> I've been praying to stay compassionate and show love to her during this. I've been trying extra hard to be nice throughout the ordeal.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately you don't have a marriage any longer. You have an abusive relationship masquerading as a marriage. She abuses you, you find excuses for her abuse, thus enabling her to continue abusing you. The only difference between you and a battered wife is that your scars aren't visible to the naked eye.

I think it might do you good to understand that if you walk away it is NOT you who ended the marriage. You have gone above, and far beyond, in order to make an impossible situation bearable. You have tried to keep your family together, to love this woman with the best that you have to give. 

However none of this matters if the other person has exited the marriage, and I am sorry to say, but based off everything you've said, your wife left the marriage a long time ago. A blackhole's thirst is never quenched. It will consume you, and still beg for more. Your wife has deep emotional/spiritual issues, problems, and needs that unfortunately you are not the answer for. You keep trying to save someone who you will NEVER be able to save. It's time to hand your responsibility for this woman over to God, and allow him to move her toward the path she needs to take, if she's willing to move in the direction to become a healthy person. You've done all you can do.

Your wife is gone. It's time for you to move on.


----------



## Temporal (Sep 24, 2012)

It can be so hard to establish the boundaries between right and wrong in these situations. Maybe couples counselling? Deciding whether to let go of someone you've known for so long may become a little clearer in counselling.


----------

