# Ladies, whats the right rules for guy friends?



## ka5367 (Nov 9, 2009)

So its been two years since my wife said she was no longer in love with me and wanted a divorce. You can read that post here:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...feelings-me-several-years-now.html#post109335

So what I want to know is – am I being paranoid or overreacting when she makes new male friends or takes existing relationships with other guys to a new level?

My issues are with the following:

excessive texting to a male who is a former co-workers.
excessive phone calls and lunches with a male who was a former friend of ours.
 ongoing emails with a stange man she met in a bar (and didn’t tell me she met until several weeks after the fact.)

Before she told me she didn’t love me and wanted a divorce, things like this didn’t bother me at all – in fact that’s one excuse she has used with one of the guys is I didn’t have a problem with her being around him before, but now I do.

I am now obsessed with monitoring her texts and emails and even though I cant see hard evidence of something going on I am weary. In fact I have tried to explain the concept of an EA and told her she might be naïve as to what men are looking for when they befriend her and she doesn’t get it and says its all innocent. She even lets me read the emails. However, I have asked her to respect that I am somewhat jealous of her hiding that she is going out to lunches and emailing/texting various other men but she just says she was not telling me because she’s ‘protecting me’ since she knows I am uneasy about it right now. She sees it as I was never had a problem with it before so I don’t trust her. She feels as if I am boxing her in and controlling her and she gets mad and insists she wont live by boundires and rules and wont allow herself to be told how to live her life.

The way this all started was a couple of times this summer she went to work on weekends and I accidentally noticed on the cell phone bill that each weekend day that she had to work that when she left she immediately texted someone or someone called her. I did some research and see that incoming calls and outgoing texts to the same number had been going on for period of about two weeks (the same two weeks she had told me she was stressed out at work about stuff and to bear with her.) I wanted to think it was just work related messages, but it was not. The phone number belonged to another man who is (was) actually a friend of ours (mine) - I was outraged and now very suspicious. I was so confused I didn’t know what to do. 

When I confronted her about the text messages and phone calls on the weekends she “went to work” she said it was not what I think and that she was working on helping this guy out with updating his website for his business. I believe her, because a year prior he had asked her to work on her website. I told her that I don’t have a problem with it if nothing is going on, but that I should know about its happening. They have been meetng for lunch, etc. too. Since I am uneasy with our marriage situation, I feel I should know if she is having lunch with other men, regardless of what is going on. Is that fair? Don’t I have a right to know?

Now fast forward to since the counseling started, and note that she has gone so far as to tell me she has never been attracted to me and that now sometimes when she sees other men all she wants to do is kiss them and see if its any good. Factor this into my concern over the texting, e-maling, and lunches with the other guys and you can see why I would be concerned, right? She just tells the counselor I am being controlling and not letting her communicate or go to lunch with guys who are just friends.

To make matters worse, she is now spending a lot more of her time on the weekends going out with her girlfriends at the last minute – frankly, I am getting tired of my wife going out with girl friends on Friday nights – if they want girls night out – do it on a weeknight… weekends at bars are for people who are looking to hook up (not a good place for married people to hang out in my opinion.) 

And when I ask where she and her friends are going on Friday nights, because I sincerely want to know what part of the city she will be in (in case there is an accident or something I should have a rough idea where she is at), she doesn’t like it because she thinks I am invading her space. She tells the counselor how she feels like I am boxing her in by my needing to know every detail of what she does and where she goes. She said that my boxing her in and being so inquisitive is why she wants to move out and be free of all that and ‘clear her mind for a few months.’

Add to this going out on weekend the most recent issue – the thing I consider the Emotional Affair – within the past couple of months I had found some disturbing email messages in my wife’s account from a strange man and of a personal nature. They didn’t look to be work related messages and they are detailed about my wife friendships with other people, what they are doing and what’s going on in each others lives, etc. I hate finding crap like this at a time she withholds affection and wants little or nothing to do with me!

While I have never mentioned reading these emails, we have talked about the issues with the other guys and I’ve explained that my feelings of jealousy or whatever they are were recent phenomenons with me being concerned about her and other men. And had she not been telling me she wasn’t attracted to me and if she wasn’t telling me she wanted to kiss other men that she sees when we are out to dinner, and I didn’t know deep down inside that she is not trying to save this marriage… that in healthy relationships, and in the past in our relationship, it is not an issue. She thinks it will never go away – but I don’t like it anymore than she does.

The same night we had the above conversation, she decides to confess to me that one Friday night while I was out of town she went to a restaurant for take-out and had a drink at the bar while waiting for her food. She went on to say that some guy bought her a drink and asked her out – she declined because she was married but she wanted me to know they had been e-mailing one another and it was innocent, but she didn’t want me finding the messages and get upset! (All along I have been reading the messages, for about 3 weeks at this point.) She says it just nice to have conversation with someone that is different and not always a fight or a struggle. 

I got upset and didn’t know how to handle this – there was an hour long discussion again about how she felt like was boxing her in by my needing to know every detail of what she does and where she goes – and how she feels like its okay for men and women to be friends and all of the sudden I am having a problem with it when I never did before and that means I don’t trust her. 

I tired to explain that this is the exact sort of thing that should throw up warning flags, that an emotional relationship or emotional affair with another man is not right. She got defensive and said, “I’m not having an emotional relationship with anyone.”

The texting continues between the other men and the emails are continuing with the guy from the bar. Once in a while she will volunteer that she has heard from these guys, but if I look at the messages it will turn out that she’s initiated the email thread. 

I am wrong to be jealous of this kind of behavior and how can I stop being jealous? I know people should have a certain expectation of privacy, but I feel like I have the right to figure out if and when she crosses the line and if she starts cheating. I have no evidence she is doing anything more than innocent emails and texts and lunches may even be innocent… but I fee like there is something I am not seeing that is causing her to not be in love with me. Am I crazy?

For the past two years, I have been doing all I can do to be a loving husband and try to make things work. Until all this started happening with other men I never questioned that I wanted to do anything but save this marriage. The more this stuff happens the more I start to question if I am the one who wants to ‘try’ anymore. But I know if I stop trying, I will have given her exactly what she is afraid of (she has said she is afraid I will some day stop trying and stop paying attention to her – which was the problem in the first place me not paying enough attention to her.)

I am working 10 hour days and I am doing everything I can do to keep from crying all day or throwing up over my stomach tossing because of this. I haven’t slept in a long time and sometimes I think her comments and actions are a game to break me down so she can say that I stopped giving her the love, affection, and attention again. If I am doing everything right, why is she throwing this away and acting the way she is acting?

Why wont she respect that this bothers me an stop? I am starting to become mad at her over this, I am so confused I can’t think straight about what is happening around me or what I am to do. 

So, again, what I want to know is – am I being paranoid or overreacting when she makes new male friends or takes existing relationships with other guys to a new level?

Please comment, please help.


----------



## scarletblue (May 20, 2009)

At the bare minimum, these are emotional affairs. She is giving time and energy and thought to other men that she should be giving you.
If there was nothing wrong with what she is doing, she wouldn't be hiding it from you.

An emotional affair will ruin a marriage just about as fast as a physical affair can. She needs to stop this if she wants your marriage to work. If she doesn't want to stop it, she will continue to do it. 

Why is it OK for her to not be paying attention to you? She is paying attention to other men when she should be trying to work on the marriage. It is not fair that she puts it all on you by saying that her fear is that you'll stop trying. Does she really expect you to be working at the marriage, when she is undermining it all the while?

She needs a wake-up call. She can't have it both ways. 

A long conversation is much needed at this point. You need to find out where you stand, and where you are on her list of priorities.


----------



## ka5367 (Nov 9, 2009)

I know I say she is too naïve to see that this sort of thing (call it an EA, or not) could turn into something dangerous. But she insists that these are innocent friendships. Two of them may be – the former co-worker, and the (somewhat former) family friend of ours. The guy she met in the bar is the one that concerns me, but I am starting to feel just as naïve when I read what they are writing to one another.

I know these are emotional affairs. But she is no longer hiding it, she is now telling me when the guy she met in a bar emails her and reading the messages to me.

The guy from the bar is also having marriage problems (to me that’s a red flag) but they are sharing uplifting thought and passages and it’s the first time in a long time that my wife see’s she has been neglecting thinking about the positive things in our marriage. This guy told her to check out the movie FIREPROOF and the book LOVE DARE. She actually shared this with me and she said to me that even though there have been lots of good things about me to notice lately, she hasn’t been making mental notes of them and that she is trying to change that.

How can I argue with something I don’t trust and am jealous of that its happening, when something good for me actually came out of it recently? The fact that she is reading the emails to me is a start? I am still worried because the emails go back and forth they both keep telling each other how they want to see each other but they cant – why the hell do they need to see one another. She says she wants to see the video of his recent vacation and its not online – he says he prefers talking face-to-face with people and says especially when its with ‘other people who are going through what he is going through.’ 

Am I jealous because there is something more going on? I admit I have snooped and cant find hard evidence of anything more than emails and texts going back and forth (and I know how to snoop.) I know there are phone calls and lunches going on with the family friend, but I don’t have insight as to what is happening or what is being said.

She exhibits all the classic signs of a wife having an affair.


Password on her phone.
Texting a lot more often that before. Deleting texts from the guy, but not those from me or her girlfriends.
Taking her cell phone to bed with her.
Her work schedule has recently changed dramatically. 
A change in intimacy in our relationship, sometimes more sometimes less.
Suddenly wants to try new love techniques.
Lacking the emotional bond that existed before. 
Exercise and eating habits – excessive weight loss.
Shows a sudden interest in a different type of music.
New stylish clothing and lots of new / expensive matching bras and panties. 
Frequent arguments and making matters that are otherwise small appear big.
She went on birth control about the same time she said she didn’t love me anymore (to keep us from accidentally bring a child into the bad relationship.)
Mutual friends and neighbors start acting strangely toward you. (They either know about the cheating or have been told stories about what a horrible husband you are.)

I just feel resentment, anger and fear in not knowing what the future holds. How do I get over this jealousy and trust issue without making her think I dont trust her or think I am demanding she cant have friends?

*Am I now the naïve one?* Do you all think I am still right for keeping my head in the game and working to save this marriage or after two and a half years am I wasting time?

What opinions does everyone have on her emailing this guy from the bar all the time - should I fret over it or should I just tell her its okay to have lunch with the guy and if she signs her own death warrant so be it?

Lastly, any suggestions for keeping myself from checking her phone and phone bill besides cutting my hands off ;-) and does it matter if I stop reading her texts and emails or not? (Will it make me fell better or worse?)

Please help,


----------



## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

You've already got two experts giving you advice, so you don't need mine (except to say I agree). I will pipe in only as an outside observer to say you are 100% right in your concerns. The coworkers and friends are bad enough. But take it from someone who's reason to be on this forum is his wife's claiming innocence in her bar-hopping:

The "I wasn't there to meet men and he just seemed so friendly" excuse for "accidentally" meeting men at bars is bull ****. As soon as your wife sat down at that bar and ordered a drink, regardless of her reason for doing it, she KNEW she had a big bullseye on her back and that any man who approached her wasn't looking for a texting pal. She KNEW immediately that this man wanted to **** her, but instead of a little flirting and time-killing, (or better yet, "no I'm married but thanks anyhow"), she pursued the relationship. This guys in her back pocket as a potential future ****-buddy.

Either that guy walks or you do.


----------



## scarletblue (May 20, 2009)

I'm a tad confused here. One thing you say is that the one guy suggested a movie and book that helped your marriage. If the listed behaviors are still going on, then I don't see how it has helped at all. I am hard pressed to think of a sign of an affair that is not on your list. 

The fact that she was reading the emails was a good sign. BUT...she's still keeping things from you and hiding stuff from you. Maybe she's only showing you the stuff that is safe for you to see.

I'm sorry, but this is soooooo not OK.

There is nothing wrong with trying to save your marriage. She needs to want to save it too, though. If you decide to let all of this that she is doing slide, then you are setting yourself up. She will continue to do it all, because you let her. This shows no respect or reguard for your feelings. You matter too!


----------



## ka5367 (Nov 9, 2009)

scarletblue said:


> I'm a tad confused here...


The guy told her about the concept of "the Appreciation Room" - I never said it actaully helped my marriage yet (its just the first glimmer of light I have seen in over two years.)

I did read myself, some of the emails she was reading me between them, and I see now where shes telling him she resents me for not allowing her to see him. What a load of crap!

As for not living like this - I agree, I cant walk a tight rope much longer.


----------



## ka5367 (Nov 9, 2009)

And, now, this weekend we got in a big fight about things and the arguement turned to the issue of the guy she met in the bar. How she thinks I am being restrictive of her and not letting her see him and how she went beyond what she thinks she should have had to do by showing me some of the emails he has sent her. She finally admitted that she resents me for not allowing her to see this guy or have lunch with him.

She went so far as to tell me I needed to 'get over it.' And, that all she wants is to have her freedom to be able to do what she wants, when she wants, with whomever she wants, and without having to think about it or ask me if she can – and that if I don’t like it, I can leave her. 

Is she trying to break me down and make me to be the bad guy? I am not falling for that!


----------



## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

ka5367 said:


> And, now, this weekend we got in a big fight about things and the arguement turned to the issue of the guy she met in the bar. How she thinks I am being restrictive of her and not letting her see him and how she went beyond what she thinks she should have had to do by showing me some of the emails he has sent her. She finally admitted that she resents me for not allowing her to see this guy or have lunch with him.
> 
> She went so far as to tell me I needed to 'get over it.' And, that all she wants is to have her freedom to be able to do what she wants, when she wants, with whomever she wants, and without having to think about it or ask me if she can – and that if I don’t like it, I can leave her.
> 
> Is she trying to break me down and make me to be the bad guy? I am not falling for that!


WOW. Did you dig into my head and drag this stuff out? My wife told me recently to "get over it" about exchanging phone numbers with a guy she met in a bar. Yes, made me out to be the bad guy. At least, inside anyhow, she knew she was wrong and didn't pursue it. She stopped her bar-hopping at that time also after she realized we both understood that "going dancing" didn't really mean "going dancing".

No. Your wife is married. She needs to be VERY careful about the male friends she chooses and you need to feel comfortable with her choices and how that friendship is pursued. DO NOT let her bully you into thinking you are wrong. She is WAY out of line. I'm not sure "forbidding it" is the way to go (She may still sneak), but she needs to know it's wrong. And she needs to know YOU KNOW it is wrong.


----------



## Kessandra (Dec 4, 2009)

I was in an LTR and my ex got into an EA...he never physically cheated but it really wasn't so different in the end.

It ended us, and the sad part is we could have made it but he hid behind his EA, it sucked all of his energy from me, from trying to make us work. We did have issues but the EA was a smoke screen. I remember feeling so confused, it was serious crazy making time for me, I think that overwhelming sense of disorientation..he told me I was paranoid, lonely....I bought into it. 

Truth is they play in fantasy land of an EA, insulates them from dealing with reality, strokes their ego, lets them seek out a safety net...you in the meantime feel nuts, desperately seek proof, but truth is you don't. Its a dismal game. For what it is worth years later my ex acknowledged his EA and feels that we may still have ended, but he never tried due to his EA, so he bears a great deal of guilt.

Get off the crazy train, get some time alone, talk with a trusted friend, get your perspective back. You know if something is wrong, trust yourself.

I am in an issue of my own, on a crazy maker of my own , its my signal these days, I can't name it, but I know it when I see it. 

Best of luck. Kes


----------



## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

A friend of the opposite sex is no threat to a healthy, happy marriage. I think that's what you felt, OP, before your wife admitted her doubts about your marriage. In light of the difficulties within your marriage, she is expecting too much from you AND from herself. A friend of the opposite sex can be--not "will" be, but can potentially be--a threat to a marriage in trouble, and it takes full concentration from both parties to repair a troubled marriage. 

Your wife sounds pretty cowardly to me. She wants to eat her cake and have it too (that is how the saying goes, although no one seems to realize it). She isn't attracted to you and not much seems to have changed in 2.5 years--what are you both hanging on to? My guess is that she is afraid to leave--either afraid to be on her own, or afraid of the guilty she'll feel. She DOES want you to make the decision (subconsciously), I suspect. Then she doesn't have to feel guilty. 

The real question, of course, is what should YOU do? No matter what we say, you have to make your decisions and what we say won't amount to a hill of beans to your wife. What does the counselor say about all this? I can't quite understand why you continue to torture yourself by putting up with all this. It is clear you are not going to be able to make her change--we can't make anyone do anything they don't want to do. Are you afraid to be on your own? Do you really love someone who doesn't love you or feel attracted to you, or is it your ego--bruised and fearful--that is getting in the way of taking really good care of yourself? Not trying to tell you what to do, just asking questions I think you might want to ask yourself. Good luck.


----------



## ka5367 (Nov 9, 2009)

sisters359 said:


> A friend of the opposite sex is no threat to a healthy, happy marriage...


I agree, a friend of the opposite sex is no threat to a healthy, happy marriage, and this is indeed how I felt before my wife revealed doubts about our marriage. She just doesnt see the potential danger in this nor will she admit its an EA taking her attention away from us.

I admit I dont know what to do. I tell myself I cant take this any longer, but I dont want to give up. Partly because I think our good times together are worth trying to fix this. But I know in my heart that we have both never given 100% at the same time to try to fix this.

I recognize that one of the differences between a platonic friendship and an emotional affair is that an emotional affair is kept secret. If she is no longer keeping it secret - is it possible that it really is just a friendship and she may be getting some much needed support of out this?

Is there anyone at all out there that has been in a similar situation that has turned it around, or am I definately wasting my time?


----------



## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Of course she could be getting support from her friends, but I would say that is still a distraction to working on the marriage-for right now, anyway. She has a counselor that you see together, and she has you. She needs to say to you the things she says to her friends, and keep them out of this. I can see at least three reasons she chooses to talk to them and not you: she is afraid to say to you what she says to them; she does not really want to work on the marriage and is thus avoiding this type of intimacy; she is totally confused and doesn't think sharing her confusion with you would do any good. But those are things she should tell you--why she fears sharing her thoughts with you, or about her confusion, or that she really doesn't want to fix things. Have you pointed out to her that she should be getting her support from you and, perhaps most importantly, she should be sharing her darkest thoughts about the marriage and you WITH YOU ALONE or with a therapist. You need to understand that this could be incredibly painful for you, but I don't see how you two will ever heal if she cannot make you the sole repository of her "worst" thoughts. Maybe have that discussion with her, and not one about whether or not she is "cheating." She says she isn't, she shares some of the conversation/emails from her friends with you; maybe she isn't. Regardless, that conversation continues to be a distraction from what broke down the marriage in the first place, and those conversations need to be between the two of you. Good luck.


----------



## uncovered (Jul 14, 2009)

You'd think that not much of anything that goes on in this world is surprising but this situation with your wife takes the cake for me! I'm dumbfounded and utterly baffled by it. Why is your wife married? How clear must she make it that she isn't ready for marriage and how long will it take for you to realize it? She'll keep inching and compromising until you're BOTH hurt beyond repair but it can be said that she's taken her cue off of you. You've inched and compromised by allowing her these male friendships in the first place. She's showing that she can finish what you started with no problem. Come on friend.....please........stop the madness


----------



## scarletblue (May 20, 2009)

If what your wife is doing is harmless and not important to her, then why is she getting mad at you for asking her not to do it? Why is she getting angry at you?

The whole "let me do whatever I want" thing is a giant red flag. She is turning you into the enemy for being upset about her behavior.

She needs to understand that if she wants to act single, then she needs to be single. 

Maybe she is just rubbing it in your face and making it perfectly clear that she's done. That seems very cruel to me, but people do that. 

I think you need to ask yourself what kind of marriage you want. You don't want a divorce, but do you want a marriage where your wife does whatever she wants, with whoever she wants? The fact that she is not willing to give up questionable behavior speaks volumes. Your wife is putting more importance on a "friendship" with a guy she met in a bar over respect for her husband. Think long and hard about what you are willing to deal with.


----------



## ka5367 (Nov 9, 2009)

scarletblue said:


> The fact that she is not willing to give up questionable behavior speaks volumes. Your wife is putting more importance on a "friendship" with a guy she met in a bar over respect for her husband. Think long and hard about what you are willing to deal with.


I spend every day thinking about this and whether she is just confused or what and how much more time I will tolerate to see if she comes around.

She has now gone back to not telling me when she hears from this guy, but in reading the emails she is explaining to him how I am hung up on the fact they met in a bar. As you all know, the fact I am hung up on is that she carried it to this next level and doesnt realizes its an EA or becoming one, etc.

She told me we had problems (not enough attention and affection) and I have fixed the problems. Now last night she tells the counselor that I am smothering her and giving too much attention and affection. Come on!

I just want the holidays to be over so I can start a new year.


----------



## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

ka- I will chime in here for a little info. My wife and I had some of these types of situations. you have to understand how they react. I was either cold or ho to her. For a long time. When I got cold she pulled away. The reason for my cold I won't go into here but you can dig up my post.. So when she threatened to leave I got hot. She told me the same about smothering her. She loks it as a panic fix and not true changes.. Only way to have that is to slowly show her a new you. She is very hesitant that once she lets herself back you will go back to the way you were. Now what she is doing is hurting your marriage further. It is one thing to have friends but anything more then a few contacts a week is too much. She should be spending that time with you. If not she is investing her time and energy into someone else. Which if not corrected soon will turnfrom EA to PA. 

My advise is start SLOW.. Good Luck.


----------



## ka5367 (Nov 9, 2009)

Loving Husband said:


> ... My wife and I had some of these types of situations... Good Luck.


Thanks, I hear what you are saying about go slow, but just dont know how. I almost lost a dying parent this year, but with a transplant, life was renewed. That has given me the perspective to love everyone in my life as much as I can while I can - so this slow thing is difficult to me.

As for her attention on someone else - I need to clarify that they are emailing each other about once every other week right now - so couple that with the fact there is no evidence in the messages of any wrong doing - its probably not as big a deal as I make it out to be, it just hurts knowing she is naive and exchanged email addresses with the guy in the first place!

Happy Holidays!

Keep any positive help, thoughts, suggestions coming. I love my wife and I need to get through this.


----------

