# Wife had EA only, but I'm having trouble



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

My wife and are are 40, been married 15 years, 3 kids. For years, our marriage has been less than ideal. My wife, due to her terrible relationship with her dad, never got the love she needed growing up. She's always been really needy. I am a bit aloof at times. She has been coming to me for years saying she needs more from me. I always felt that I would "fix" it, but my fixes were temporary and I would go back to "normal". Bottom line is that I felt everything would work out somehow, I would give her what she needs, but I didn't have any sense of urgency because we were so committed to each other. She warned me.

She has a guy friend that she has never dated - they've been friends for 20 years. He's never married but had girlfriends. He and I became casual friends. He was at our wedding, etc, etc. He lives 90 minutes away and they would get together about 4-5 times a year for a visit that would last most of the day. I worked this through with my wife and she reassured me nothing was going on (and until very recently, it wasn't). 

While on a trip out of town for work, I went into her email to look for invitation responses to a party we are having. While there, I saw an email from her friend. Given our recent struggles I had to look. Long story short it was clear from that email that they were having an EA. My wife's email response back to him was very incriminating, devastating, and yet proof it had not yet gone physical. It was worded such that she wished she could be with him, but couldn't because of our marriage.

I paced my hotel room for 3 hours, contemplating what to do. Then I called my wife in the middle of the night. I asked her what was going on between them, before I told her what I saw. She said, nothing has happened (which is true from a physical point). Then I said I saw an email and she was reluctant to come out with it. It wasn't until I read her the incriminating sentence that she admitted her feelings for her friend. 

Due to my not meeting her emotional needs for the past few years and her warning me about it, she eventually found this gap filled by her friend, to the point she fell in love with him. She hasn't really been in love with me for awhile, although she does still love me very much and we have phenomenal sex. I am also the main bread winner in the house and a doting father. Because of my lack of urgency in reassuring my wife and her emotional baggage, I am wondering if we are too far gone to repair the marriage.

This just happened Thursday night 5/4. It's still raw. She agreed immediately to stop communicating with her friend. She said she wanted to say goodbye to him given their 20 years of friendship. I am allowing this, but told her it had to be at a nearby restaurant and not by where he lives (again, not that it's gotten physical, but last hurrahs are scary). They haven't done this yet.

We have made some huge strides over the last 2 days - had a great mother's day. I took yesterday off to further deal with this with her. And we had another great day. We both realize that there is blame all around. I feel bad for ignoring her for so long and vowed never to let that happen again. She vowed not to communicate with her friend after her goodbye talk with him. But I am still hurt. And she has to figure out if all the years of my not meeting her emotional needs is repairable too. Lot's of work ahead to see if those two issues can be resolved. But 19 years of relationship and 15 years of marriage, 3 kids, etc...we have to do it, and we want to try.

Anyone been here? Or can relate? I'm trying to get some cathartic relief.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

^ You will find a lot of folks here who have "been there and can relate." So you're in good company.



Gabriel said:


> She agreed immediately to stop communicating with her friend.


GOOD!!!!!!!!!!! Now she must do this and you need to enforce a hard boundary and stick to it. 
NO inapprorpriate relationship with OM. It's good you caught this now instead of later.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Gabriel your wife must not meet this man, you are seeking disaster, this is not a closure let's whisper sweet nothings in each others ears. What are you thinking??? You don't care if they have been friends for 20 years , he is in an affair with your wife. Closure is a no contact letter she writes , you approve and send.

Do not be so foolhardy to enable a plan or future deceptive communications to be discussed and please do not think you can get through this with your plan.We have seen this before !!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

^ I agree with Eli. She can just call im and tell him the relationship is inappropriate and not to call her again. In front of you. Or send it in a written letter.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Dude, I could have written most of what you said. I did, actually, except it appears that you caught yours at an earlier stage. Listen to Eli-Zor. Also, what you have found is likely to be just the tip of the iceberg. I agree on not condoning a meeting between the two of them. She must end it in your presence or you will always wonder what was said, etc.

Trust me, this weekend was my wife's 4th or 5th phone call to "end it". Each time, it didn't actually end, it only went deeper underground.

I hope you situation is different, but it sounds scarily similar to mine and several other stories on here. Read around. You are in a good place. You are certainly not alone. We have been married for 13 years with 3 kids also.

Also, please don't say "EA only". Personally, I believe an EA, especially one as involved as my wife's, is much worse than some levels of PA. A one-night stand would have been much easier to get over. As I told my wife, she gave that man her heart, which is infinitely more important than her vagina. You mentioned that she told the OM (other man) she loves him. I'm afraid you may be in for one hell of a ride.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I don't think you know everything yet. Don't be so quick to accept ANY blame for her cheating. 

Cynic in me says the email could have been a red herring strictly for your benefit.

If she knew you had access to account while traveling, she could have placed the email to throw you off the full scope if her affair.

My point, trust nothing she says. And don't telegraph what you find.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Gabriel said:


> Anyone been here? Or can relate? I'm trying to get some cathartic relief.


3+ Years post D-Day and doing great. As far as how she ends it that will be your call. Many will say it needs to be done with you present and there are good reasons for that. In my case, I did not request or have an interest in how the hammer fell. I don't even know if it was done via text, phone call or email. Once she did it, I worked at moving forward as much as possible. We've never spoken of it since.

Your wife is taking a huge step in the marriage if she can break contact, and believe me it won't be easy. You will have to make sure she understands that contact with TOM is a deal breaker. She will go through a period of withdrawal and probably resentment to wards you. This is to be expected. Once she passes those she can emerge from the fog and begin to reconnect with you. This will take time.

It can be done, it can get better. Good luck.


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## Forgiveness (Mar 9, 2011)

I have been dealing with some of what you have. Except I am in your wife's shoes and of course he hasn't been my friend for 20 years. But speaking from my experience you can do it. You really have to try. We are doing great and I still do work with this guy. I am still trying to figure out exactly why I had this EA with him for a year and we did kiss on my birthday at a club. Anyway...

We are fixing it. And I am so glad we are. I love my husband with all my heart and soul. I truly think I just took advantage of him, took him for granted. We have been married 23 years this year and he is half of me. I just figure he will be there no matter what. I cant think like that and I have learned this. This other guy did fill some what of a friend void for me. My husband is my only friend and my best friend. I stepped over some lines we sat years and years ago by befriending him and having it lead into an EA. 

I am being completely transparent with my husband. I am not hiding anything from him. If he asks I tell him anything he wants to know. I know we are gonna be OK. I really do believe you guys can do it too.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Dude,
> If you decide to track her, don't throw the evidence in her face. Use it to watch her moves. Learn how she operates, and when the time is right, sit her down, and read her the riot act.


Yes, keep any intelligence gathering to yourself for now. Don't play your hand too soon. Every time I did, they just went deeper underground.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Thanks for the comments all. To be honest, I was the bad guy in our marriage for a long time. I never cheated, never abused, etc, etc, but I also didn't heed my wife's warnings. She came to me first, many many times about what she needed. She wanted me to be the one to improve. And I only would fix it for awhile before I let life get in the way yet again.

Her agreeing to end this friendship is a BIG deal. This is her price for her role in the situation. The EA took place only very recently (maybe 3-4 months), after 20 years. This was not a quick thing or a fling with a random person.

I am one that believes marriage can only survive if there is mutual trust. If I can't trust her to have this meeting, say her goodbye, and be done with it, then I can't trust her about anything. And if I can't do that, why not just end it now?

Some people on here talk about having the "cheating" spouse open all email, text, etc, communications to prove their trustworthiness. But that's not trust. Trust is believing them when they say something. Hell if I want to be snooping in the email and texts all the time. That would be torture and we'll never get past it. This my problem right now. Can I give her the benefit of the doubt?

That said, if I trust her on this, and I find out there was this 2nd or 3rd meeting/call to say goodbye, then I will end the marriage.

Another question, given I know the OM pretty well, there has been talk that he has considered emailing me an apology. He feels beyond awful he let things get this far. I have also considered emailing him, not to completely rip or threaten him, but instead to tell him there is plenty of blame to go around, and also to be firm about my forbidding him from ever again being in our lives.

Thoughts?


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

> Another question, given I know the OM pretty well, there has been talk that he has considered emailing me an apology. He feels beyond awful he let things get this far. I have also considered emailing him, not to completely rip or threaten him, but instead to tell him there is plenty of blame to go around, and also to be firm about my forbidding him from ever again being in our lives.
> 
> Thoughts?


The only person he talks to is his current girlfriend, he can then apologize to her, your a nice guy, we have seen this routine many times.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Gabriel said:


> Some people on here talk about having the "cheating" spouse open all email, text, etc, communications to prove their trustworthiness. But that's not trust. Trust is believing them when they say something. Hell if I want to be snooping in the email and texts all the time. That would be torture and we'll never get past it. This my problem right now. Can I give her the benefit of the doubt?


Many will say no, you must demand transparency. But this will be your call. In our case, I did not demand it, I did not snoop and did not question. Once I was sure she was ready to end the EA and try to recover the marriage I was done with that part of it. It was time to build trust again. Transparency in my opinion is overrated. If a spouse is going to cheat they are going to cheat. There are too many ways to fly under the radar. But I fully understand that you may be setting yourself up to get burned. Many called me a sap for not demanding transparency but I am glad I chose the path I did. Certainly if there were issues that were curious, we discussed them and to my recollection all were resolved to my satisfaction. Choose your path based on how well you think you know your wife and her character. 

As far as any communication from or to TOM. Can it, no contact for you or your wife. It's a bad idea to give him a platform to state his case or flog himself. He did what he did, @$# him!


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## Forgiveness (Mar 9, 2011)

Transparency on my part was not demanded by him. He does not sneak into my email or even my test messages. But I do leave my phone out so if he wanted to he can see it. He has told me he knows I feel really bad for it all and that I do love him. I think he still trusts me, maybe not completely but enough to not check out everything I do or say. And thanks to you guys on here I am not over doing things anymore. ;0).......

Gabriel I really think you guys are on the right track. 

"Trust is believing them when they say something. Hell if I want to be snooping in the email and texts all the time. That would be torture and we'll never get past it. This my problem right now. Can I give her the benefit of the doubt?"

I really agree with this. From the one who was wrong point of view. I am really working hard on our marriage. VERY HARD. My husband is doing exactly what you said in the above sentence. He is trusting me and giving me the benefit of the doubt.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Forgiveness thanks for your perspective from the opposite side. 

Amplexor - I think you are with me on this. As much as I am struggling to allow this last meeting, denying said meeting may backfire. It may provide the closure she needs to truly end the friendship. But at the same time, I would LOVE it if the goodbye could be done as others described with a letter/email. It would be so much easier on me.

We both have a lot of work to do, but it will be worth it if we come out on the other side a stronger couple. Just too many unknowns right now.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Anthony, let me put it to you this way. What if SHE wants the goodbye to put it all away for good? As far as I know he is not requesting the goodbye. Telling him to get lost doesn't apply.

There are only two possibilities

1) she is telling me the truth here
2) she will see/talk him again after, no matter what she says

It goes back the trust/consequence. If #1 happens it was the best thing to let her have it. She has a better chance of moving forward, and I show I am trusting her in attempt to repair. 

If #2 happens, then I end it the marriage. 

Yes, wondering what was said will be tough. This is the part that gives me the most pause about it.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Here's the other thing. This meeting has not been scheduled. She texted him 2 days ago and said this was her last text until he responded with when he wanted to meet. He previously said he wasn't ready for this meeting. At this point, my wife doesn't know if it will ever happen. So that whole thing might just go away. But at the same time, part of me just wants it to be over with so we can move forward.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Thanks for the comments all. To be honest, I was the bad guy in our marriage for a long time. I never cheated, never abused, etc, etc, but I also didn't heed my wife's warnings. She came to me first, many many times about what she needed. She wanted me to be the one to improve. And I only would fix it for awhile before I let life get in the way yet again.


That is the same script I was handed. Are you sure my wife didn't give your wife that script? lol




Gabriel said:


> Another question, given I know the OM pretty well, there has been talk that he has considered emailing me an apology. He feels beyond awful he let things get this far. I have also considered emailing him, not to completely rip or threaten him, but instead to tell him there is plenty of blame to go around, and also to be firm about my forbidding him from ever again being in our lives.


Well, let me dig out my notes. On April 26, 2011, my wife's OM called me to apologize. He said it was over and they had decided to "go their separate ways." Somewhere around that time (should have made better notes), she gave me the battery for her affair phone. She also told our daughter and her sister that it was over. I had confirmation in her not having the affair phone, OM, my daughter and her sister all independently telling me it was over. On Friday, May 6, I put a VAR near the computer when I took the kids to the carnival. Guess what? It was still alive and very active. They had simply worked out a method of communication they didn't think I could catch on to. My point is, even if OM says it is over and apologizes, it could just be a deceptive move as in my case.



Eli-Zor said:


> The only person he talks to is his current girlfriend, he can then apologize to her, your a nice guy, we have seen this routine many times.


I am also a nice guy, unfortunately. At the very least, order the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. I am still reading it, but I am amazed at how close it fits me so far.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Gabriel: Do not let them meet, you are enabling the affair.

Do what is right for your marriage, her meeting him is not right for your marriage,


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Eli-Zor said:


> Gabriel: Do not let them meet, you are enabling the affair.
> 
> Do what is right for your marriage, her meeting him is not right for your marriage,


I AGREE!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I'm not doing that dude.

Let's just say from the email I intercepted, I know they haven't been getting it on. Trust me on this. I'd rather not post the sentence from that email. But it is very clear from it that it was something they wanted to do, but hadn't yet. The OM is very religious and was likely waiting for the divorce first before consummating the EA with sex. 

EA = very clear
PA = very clearly not

Hence the title of my thread. Not that that makes it any better. 

And to Tennessee - this isn't a script she's been feeding me since the affair. She's been feeding me the script for years. I had lots of chances. Still pissed I am in this position now.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> The OM is very religious and was likely waiting for the divorce first before consummating the EA with sex.



Very religious, huh? 

Exodus 20:14 - Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Matthew 5:27, 28 - Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, "Thou shalt not commit adultery": But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

from Jesus Christ. I'd imagine that sexting, sexual emails, phone sex, etc. would fit this category. They just weren't in common usage 2,000 years ago.

Exodus 20:17 - Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, . . . 

These are just a few examples of why I wouldn't base my faith that nothing has happened on him being "very religious". Chasing another man's wife is not looked upon too well in the Bible.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Anthony, I appreciate your answers. I like getting all the perspectives. 

Regarding the Bible verses - I don't know what they've texted or said. The stuff I saw was not graphic at all. It was more of a longing.

The email from the OM detailed his jealousy about her talking with a guy she knew (nothing untoward in that situation btw). But his email went on and on, beyond what is appropriate. Then her response was the damaging one - but not graphic. Like I said, more of a "wish things were different, so we could make be together" type of thing. She confided our problems to him as a friend, and he said all the things she needed him to say, and over the years had backed them up with his actions as her friend. 

She is very remorseful and feels like a bad person for her thoughts. She asked me "what should I have done?" given she came to me first a bunch of times over a long stretch and tried to work it out with me. She answered her own question and said that the courageous thing would have been to ask for a divorce first, then be alone, then see if her friend made sense as a partner later. She called herself a coward for instead letting herself emotionally cross the line first while still married.

I will ask her for more detail about what they've said to each other beyond that email. I really should have done that right away. The email was enough to do the damage so I didn't ask that question.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Gabriel said:


> Her agreeing to end this friendship is a BIG deal. This is her price for her role in the situation. The EA took place only very recently (maybe 3-4 months), after 20 years. This was not a quick thing or a fling with a random person.


Yes, I felt much the same way when my wife came to me in November stating that she was finally giving up her friendship with her long-time EA partner (not that she would admit it was an EA, of course) after a dream she had the night before. She said the dream literally made her wake up and see that she needed to get him out of her life if our marriage was going to survive.

A mere handful of days before our first (and long time coming) MC session in March, I found emails between them that clearly showed the EA was still going on, just through a communication channel they didn't think I'd have access to.



> I am one that believes marriage can only survive if there is mutual trust. If I can't trust her to have this meeting, say her goodbye, and be done with it, then I can't trust her about anything. And if I can't do that, why not just end it now?
> 
> Some people on here talk about having the "cheating" spouse open all email, text, etc, communications to prove their trustworthiness. But that's not trust. Trust is believing them when they say something. Hell if I want to be snooping in the email and texts all the time. That would be torture and we'll never get past it. This my problem right now. Can I give her the benefit of the doubt?


You're absolutely right that trust is necessary to save and rebuild the marriage. But, given what's happened, first the two of you must rebuild that trust itself. And the surest way to rebuild trust is for her to demonstrate that she's trustworthy. She does this by her actions truly matching her words...not by merely APPEARING to match her words. That's where transparency comes in...she has nothing to hide, so she hides nothing. She should be willing to put her proverbial money where her mouth is. Once trust is reestablished, she can be afforded that luxury.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> I'm telling you, my friend.... Don't be a nice guy. Don't trust her. She's wanted him, and will continue to do so. Do not enable her.
> 
> You have two choices....
> 
> ...


This is pretty much the only thing that ever works. Seriously. And when people don't take a stand immediately after discovering the affair, and say things like they won't do any such thing and etc, and dtime goes on and on and on and the spouse gets to eat so much cake and still isn't sure what to do, it's less likely they choose the marriage in the long run and guess what happens: they're here 200 posts later talking about the same thing. "My wife is still in contact with OM..or my H is still in conact with OW and won't stop despite me saying it's not ok." TN is a perfect an example of this. (Not meaning to call you out, TN, but it's the perfect case study).

So Gabriel, you cacn just sit back and pray she ends the affair or you can actually get some self-respect and tell her you're not going to take it and actually back it up with actions. 

If she chooses the marriage, great. If she won't end it with him, she wasn't worth it in the first place.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> I'm not doing that dude.
> 
> The OM is very religious and was likely waiting for the divorce first before consummating the EA with sex. .


How noble of him. 



Gabriel said:


> And to Tennessee - this isn't a script she's been feeding me since the affair. *She's been feeding me the script for years. *I had lots of chances. Still pissed I am in this position now.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> TN is a perfect an example of this. (Not meaning to call you out, TN, but it's the perfect case study).


No problem Jellybeans. I was going to tell him the same thing as I was reading through these.

Dude, I have written War and Peace on here. You can look through as much as you like. I'm telling you because you sound like I did. I wish I had been more aggressive at first. I'd either be divorced or recovered by now. After all that wishy washy I should trust her crap and wanting with all my heart to believe every word she says, I am still finding more of the iceberg. My marriage is most likely ending in divorce before too long. 

Please listen to these folks. I am a great example of how not to handle it. There are 2 threads. Look at the first one and you'll see I had much the same reaction early on that you seem to. I thought basically, "Yeah, well that may be the norm, but they don't know my wife." The more I read other threads on here, I see the script is scarily common. You are most likely just seeing the tip of the iceberg.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Hire a PI and have her watched during mtg.
If you don't you will wonder what want on.
Why start trusting her know?

I have to give it to you... I'd wanted no contact except for NC text and one call, but no way in hell was there going to be mtg. 

Isn't that like inviting the wolf into the hen house. Come on havn't you ever heard of the old saying "one more time for good old sakes" or is it old days?

My wifes first consequence is she didn't get to say good by to her boyfriend. Granted she told him "he knows he's here now I gotta go".
He called back to make sure I wasn't hurting her, she said " I just got spanked thats all..I gotta go"

Your playing with fire..I understand your between a rock and a hard place but man letting her see OM to say good by is so wrong.

I can hear it it now "hey baby how can we stay in contact and not get caught this time"

I would think getting a letter is all they diserve at best, but thats just me.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I want to thank everyone for their responses. I just had a long talk with her. I asked her to tell me about any/all intimate conversations they've had. She told me that the talking was never sexual in nature. During their 20 year friendship, they've always kind of just missed each other - one was in one relationship, then the other was in another. She tells me their talks were 

1) her confiding to him our marital issues
2) him reassuring her from his standpoint (filling the need)
3) them wishing at some point they had the chance to move beyond friendship along the way somewhere
4) them understanding how impossible that is given the current situation they were in.

She 100% promises me that this is the extent of the EA. The email I saw was her expressing #3 and #4, but in the present tense, given where our marriage is right now. It was dated 4/23. I saw the email 5/4.

I asked her specifically what else was said, and she honestly couldn't come up with anything that didn't fit 1-4 above. Never talk of physical stuff. Just deeper, "if only the timing of our lives had been different" type of stuff.

It still sucks ass, but I do feel a bit better after that conversation. I also know that if she truly does what she says and cuts off the contact for the sake of our marriage, she's not going to run out and do this again. There's no other guy in her life like this OM waiting in the weeds. The key is will she?

Another question for you all:::::

I am turning 40 next weekend. She set up a party for me (before this went down) that has a set number of people (it's an activity), but most of my friends are out of town, etc, and can't come. Of the 12 people coming so far, 9 are either her friends that are sort of my friends, or they are mutual friends that my wife has confided our situation to. Only 3 are really tied to me only. So it is possible most of the people there will know about what happened, or are there more for my wife than me. We've put $450 nonrefundable money down on this, which is 1/2 the bill. I told my wife in a bad moment to just cancel the party. She freaked out and thought I did it to punish her (she went on about how crappy she feels for ruining my party, my whole birthday really). But really, it's not like a lot of my friends are showing up. Part of me wants the party to try to help me feel better, and part of me wants to forget it. Thoughts?


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Gabriel, as long as the OM is not coming, I'd continue the party. It is a chance for you guys to do something that should be fun, even if most of the friends are "hers". 

I understand your not wanting to participate, but suggest you reconsider and keep a good frame of mind as to not make it a bad time. I can't imagine that losing the money spent and sitting at home will help you or anyone else feel any better. 

Maybe a fun night out together with some friends will help in a small way and provide your wife a chance to do something special for you. Just my 0.02.

Good luck


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## heartbroken1957 (Apr 8, 2011)

Hmmm being in the same boat as you, but with a lot more time under my belt, I would say you are in denial of her affair. You are trying to convince yourself it just didn't happen. She was just talking to him, just like she would a girl friend. 
I agree with all the others. Wake up. in #3 and #4 they clearly to me talk about what they missed out on by not having sex 20 yrs ago and believe me. IF GIVEN THE CHANCE THEY WILL. Feeling guilty or not they will want to satisfy the question of "Did I miss out on something". Even if he is religious he will break Gods law because God made man that way. That is why we are forgiven. 

As for the Bday party. Forget it. No party. Period. You are already questioning who will take who's side. Will they pitty her or me. Will I feel comfortable. If you feel you must get your $450 out of it. Invite family, both parents, kids, brothers, sisters, Aunts, Uncles. Keep it family and you will feel comfortable. 
I found my H's affair on the 19th and my Bday was the 21st. I didn't feel anyway near wanting to celebrate. It was weeks later my Son n DIL had dinner for me. It was worth the wait.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

What is the obsession with the sex part? This has never been about sex. It's always been about emotional needs. 

Not to toot my own horn - I am just trying to clarify - I satisfy my wife in bed. She is not wondering what sex is like with others. She's had other lovers before me. I am not without major skills in this area. She has said, even recently, that nobody can find out how I perform in bed, or I would get constant offers. AGain, not something I originally wanted to bring to the discussion, but you guys keep going there. This is an emotional issue. Some of you understand but others keep going to the sex part. Take that out of the equation.

She has confided in a couple of friends, and they asked her "not once did you and the OM even mess around? Nothing?" And she told them, "Nope. Not even once." And her friends were shocked. As I'm sure are most of you. Maybe I made a mistake coming to this board. I almost always feel worse afterward. Maybe I'm masochistic.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Gabriel: the mistake you are making is you are not unique and you want to believe your wife, so does every betrayed spouse on every board. Alas most find out to late, many will not listen. Your case is not unique, what your wife is saying is not unique , she is following the script , you say you want to save your marriage then stop finding reasons to downgrade her infidelity.People are here to help and most speak from experience either due to an affair or they activly support folk in protecting their marriages.

The party is your choice, I recommend you cancel, your wifes friends are there for her not you. Do not let her meet this man ever again, this is a zero option. She can be mad at you, this is your boundary if she is serious about your marriage she should respect it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The 13th_Floor (Mar 7, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> What is the obsession with the sex part? This has never been about sex. It's always been about emotional needs.
> 
> Not to toot my own horn - I am just trying to clarify - I satisfy my wife in bed. She is not wondering what sex is like with others. She's had other lovers before me. I am not without major skills in this area. She has said, even recently, that nobody can find out how I perform in bed, or I would get constant offers. AGain, not something I originally wanted to bring to the discussion, but you guys keep going there. This is an emotional issue. Some of you understand but others keep going to the sex part. Take that out of the equation.
> 
> She has confided in a couple of friends, and they asked her "not once did you and the OM even mess around? Nothing?" And she told them, "Nope. Not even once." And her friends were shocked. As I'm sure are most of you. Maybe I made a mistake coming to this board. I almost always feel worse afterward. Maybe I'm masochistic.


Gabriel - 

Listen, you feel bad after coming to this board because we're NOT telling you what you WANT to hear. You know why? Because we want to help you save your marriage. You keep trying to look for reasons why her EA is your fault and that she didn't have a PA so it's not as bad. 

I'm going to tell you something that's going to hurt and you probably won't believe because you're in denial. Almost ALL EA's eventually turn into PA's. This other guy was fullfilling your wife's needs emotionally and the sex almost always comes with it whether that's what she was initially looking for or not. Your wife feels extremely connected to this man and you KNOW that your wife would have eventually had sex with him. I know you know this! 

You can blame yourself all you want and try to find reasons to downgrade her EA, why you have to trust her, why she's different, but it all boils down to this...

Your wife, Gabriel, stepped out of your court and into another man's. You're blaming yourself and by doing so, you're turning yourself into your wife's doormat. Please, be a man about this. Take Anthony's advice and either confront this POSOM, or give your wife a reality check that she'll never forget (180.)

If you don't squash this now, I bet you'll be here months from now asking for advice on your wife's PA instead of EA. Nip this NOW or be sorry.

You think your wife is different. Lol, mine was too, except now she's tainted, and I WISH I could have caught her at the stage you caught yours. 

You feel bad after reading our posts? Well, the truth hurts doesn't it...


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## i_feel_broken (Jul 5, 2010)

Hi Gabriel,

I don't post a massive amount on these forums, I occasionally post an update to my saga and when I see a thread I feel I can contribute to I will offer a little of my advice. 

I am posting now because I see your position as being so similar to mine and more importantly your attitude is so similar to how mine was. That isn't a criticism, it is a natural reaction and like you I ignored so many posts of advice - choosing instead to believe my wife time after time.

After all, your wife is somebody who you should trust over everyone right? You are best friends right? You have lived together for years and been so much together right? .... okay in her hours of need she made a mistake but she has apologised and is now telling you the truth. She is your wife and she has now told you everything and agreed to no more contact.

I wish it was as simple as that. I thought my wife was the best type of person, loyal... honest.. decent and I, like you, had my wife sit down and tell me everything.... only it took at least five of these "honesty" sessions and 4 or 5 months to actually get the truth. I realise you want to think your wife is different from all the other disloyal wives, I did too, I was on these boards 7 or 8 months ago, like you, telling everyone they were wrong. My wife wouldn't do that... she has looked me in the eye and told me that.. bla bla bla..

There is one key element though, when any wife or husband gets caught in an affair like this and the "fog" decends on them they no longer act or think like the loyal and trustworthy person they once were. At this moment in time your wife is not your wife as you know her.. after all if she was then you would not be on this forum!!?? You are defending against/denying her PA, that's what I did and I'm not going to try and persuade you there has been any sex because each case is different. What I will say is you don't know for sure there hasn't been some type of physical intimacy - sex or not. Secondly and more importantly it doesn't matter in terms of stopping the affair. An EA is worse in this sense than a PA. An EA is gripping and addictive, she is caught in a battle of her heart and her mind and 99% of the time, if no barriers are put up, the heart will win this battle. 

She will promise no more contact...sure. But after a few days and weeks pass, if something has got her down, and she knows you will not find out the pull of sending the OM (whom she is in love with - make no mistake about that) a message via some medium will be too great. That "hit" of receiving a message from the person who she is in love with and whom is in love with her will be too much. I guarantee it.

I let my wife have the "goodbye" meeting with OM as I made so many wrong moves in fear of loosing her. Boy how I regret that. I know you think you are doing the right thing but I beg you to put your foot down here. Respect yourself and make her respect your boundaries by not letting this meeting happen. What is going to be said at this meeting that can't be said on the phone?? You are crazy if you let this happen and I speak from experience in an almost identical situation.

I know its hard to doubt your wife and it's so easy to believe what you want to believe and believe what makes things less painful. Please do the hard things now to stop months of more painful events ahead.

My wife and I are currently separated. We still speak and we still have my son that we share time with. She tries to explain to me how sorry she is and she says it now seems like a horrible dark dream that she is waking from. She can't understand what she did or why? I feel the same in some respects, I have woken and I can't believe now what I chose to allow and what boundaries I chose not to enforce and why I believed her so many times.

The reasons are that the situation is so emotionally charged that both parties can't always see and process the logical way to act. I'm not suggesting any aggressive or cave-man type actions but logical ones that in a years time you can look back on and have your self-respect intact. Don't under estimate how important that is to you.


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## The 13th_Floor (Mar 7, 2011)

i_feel_broken said:


> Hi Gabriel,
> 
> I don't post a massive amount on these forums, I occasionally post an update to my saga and when I see a thread I feel I can contribute to I will offer a little of my advice.
> 
> ...


Gabriel - 

Please listen to this poster. I promise you, we've all experienced this in one way or another. Do you see how long our posts are? We care. We've all been around the block a few times as betrayed or disloyal spouses. 

I know you think your wife is different. My friends were absolutely SHOCKED after telling them my story. They never would have guessed, neither would I. Since catching my wife of 9 years in that hotel room, she's said things I would have never imagined. It's like she was possesed by a demon. She actually told me to stick my support and money up my ass and could care less about our marriage.

Does that sound like a line from a wonderful wife and mother? Of course not, because that person is not my wife or our son's mother. That person, my wife, is in the fog and doesn't see clearly. 

You've recognized your past faults and that's great, but that's NOT enough to get your wife back. You can't give her a free pass on this. She has to understand that your past faults were NO REASON to cheat on you emotionally. She should have separated or divorced, that simple.


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## The 13th_Floor (Mar 7, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Gabriel,
> Ironically, my wife approached me this morning. She said she wanted to "talk".
> I decided to be a listener, and absorb everything she had to say.
> 
> ...


Congratulations, Anthony. That's an awesome "step" towards reconciliation. I really hope it works out for you both! 180 strikes again. Working for me too


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## heartbroken1957 (Apr 8, 2011)

Gabriel, I too am far from lacking in the bedroom. Just stating a fact that stuplified me when my husband went looking for sex. He tryed to lure them in by saying "I haven't had sex in 10 yrs." 
It's not the "sex" that they want. It's the thrill. I feel in your case, your wife actually was wondering "what if". That's all. He was her friend before you, and will always be a threat to you. She has to step up and be rid of him with no contact, and make the choice herself. Give her an ultimatum. State what you want, what you expect, set a time frame, then back away. Once she sees that you are strong in conviction, she must come to you and tell you what she will do to make it right. If not, then you might as well be talking to a brick wall. 
If you truly believe there would have never been sex, Ok then you know her the best. But she was still confiding in him what she should have been telling you in order to fix her marriage. If not him it eventually would have been another or divorce court. She was not happy with the marriage.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

meeting emotional needs for women stirs sexual desire . weather they stay there not that was a component of this relationship. It has absolutely nothing to do with your skill in bed . however to some degree I agree with you that being here and becoming obsessive about the situation will likely do more damage to your relationship to prevent reconciliation . I'm seeing a lot more divorces due to emotional affairs on thlis board than might otherwise happen if you didn't have a group of people egging you on to dig deeper and deeper.

I know they mean well I think you be better off with professional marriage counselor 1 that is pro marriage .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Maybe I made a mistake coming to this board. I almost always feel worse afterward. Maybe I'm masochistic.





The 13th_Floor said:


> Gabriel -
> 
> Listen, you feel bad after coming to this board because we're NOT telling you what you WANT to hear.
> 
> You feel bad after reading our posts? Well, the truth hurts doesn't it...


Yep, this. Gabriel, we are trying to help you. This kind of reminds me of someone's thread in the Gen. Relationship area... "Why post?" LOL. 




Anthony8858 said:


> She THANKED me for being a hard ass, and getting rid of him. She only wished, she could have done it her way. ( mixed opinions about this one) she doesn't condone violence.
> She told me how wrong she was for doing this. She admitted that she loves me, and doesnt want to LOSE her family. ( key statement here, and a result of my 180). She brought to my attention, the things in our marriage that she felt I should work on. I agreed, and told her I would make a conscience effort to take control of those issues. She admitted the things that she could also improve upon, and I also agreed.
> I could go on and on......
> 
> ...


Said it before and I'll say it again, THIS IS THE ONLY THING  I have ever seen that works if there is ANY chance of reconciliation. 

The doormat approach will get you nowhere fast!

Gabriel, do NOT underestimate the power of an EA. As a woman, and this is just my personal opinion, I think an emotional affair is FAR worse than a physical affair for a woman. Why? Because when women have an emotional bond with someone it is MUCH harder to break than say just some no-strings-attached-sex (NSA). So if someone simply has NSA sex with someone, a woman may over time develop feelings for that person but just imagine, as a woman, if she already HAS feelings for someone and then it leads to sex... that is hard to get over. 

So my advice is *DO NOT *LET HER MEET HIM. She needs to cut it off cold turkey. 

As for your birthday party. Gabriel, you are turning 40. That is a milestone. Get your party on!


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> She said she wanted to say goodbye to him given their 20 years of friendship. I am allowing this, but told her it had to be at a nearby restaurant and not by where he lives (again, not that it's gotten physical, but last hurrahs are scary). They haven't done this yet.


No, do not allow this BS.

She writes him a no contact e-mail, you read it and have her make any changes you want.

She sends it.

Your done.

Where is the sense in allowing her private contact with this guy?
I don`t care how long they were "friends" she blew it when she started the EA.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

I definitely agree with not letting them meet. it will only stir there longing .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Jellybeans said:


> Gabriel, do NOT underestimate the power of an EA.


This is a sentiment I've been meaning to express for a while, as well.

You say "EA 'only'" in your thread title, as if it's on par with, say, she accidentally threw out your favorite shirt. She did more than that. She gave the emotional connection that would/should be yours as her partner in life to someone else. She was more emotionally invested in her relationship with him - as harmless as she MAY have thought it was - than she was in you.

Trust me, my friend...I've been there. I've heard - and bought - the "he's just a friend," "I can talk to him about things that I can't talk to you about because they might be ABOUT you," "I can get a man's perspective on things" nonsense and more. I felt the sting of betrayal every time she "promised" she wouldn't contact him any longer, then months later, there were the texts between them again. And, in the long run, it hurt more than her PA did.

Now, for better or for worse, I've probably given her more chances than I should have. Heck...I've given her more chances than I thought I'd ever be able to. And, she's on her last one...and knows it. It's made her re-examine her past, her relationships with men (she's always had more male friends than female, even going back to high school), how she interacts with them and - most importantly - what the root cause might be.

No one is trying to dog pile on you...no one is trying to make you think it may be a mistake for you to have come here. We're simply speaking from experience. That experience is of having heard the same basic responses from our own disloyal spouses, so we can make educated guesses about what else is going on based on those experiences.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Please don't be sorry that you came here. I believe that may be a natural response as well. I have felt the same thing. At times, I felt as I was being attacked. 

Looking back, everything that was said that made me defensive was dead on. I have been through unbelievable pain the past few months. I lost 25 pounds in 1 month due to a total loss of appetite. That is a fairly common reaction that several here have mentioned.

This forum is pro marriage for the most part. Read up on the 180. That has worked for several. I have not been very good at keeping my 180, but when I do, it works. 

Marriage is a sacred institution. You and your wife are tied together for life. Even if you just look at the natural ties, those kids will always have you as their father and her as their mother. That is what has given me the deep desire to work things out with my wife. That is why I have tried so very hard to believe everything she tells me. That is why I have tried so hard to ignore the feeling in my gut that the affair wasn't over. I was in denial for way too long. I suppose that is a coping mechanism that is fairly common. You (and I) don't want accept how horribly deep an EA is. Some have described the pain as the most horrible life has to offer. I can only think of one that would be worse, losing a child.

No one here is trying to make you feel bad. Personally, I hurt for you. I hurt for your children. I currently have tears in my eyes thinking about your situation and your denial. I wish I could go back to where you are and do things differently. I wish I would have listened to the very sound advice I was given early on. I wish I hadn't thought, "My wife isn't like that."

Please listen and try not to be defensive. I hope you are right. I doubt that you are.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Okay all, the last few posts were great, and I am so grateful for all the support. Anthony, way to go, I am so happy for you.

I wanted to give you all an update. 

We had a rough night last night talking about everything. In the morning, with the kids going to school, I decided to take a stand. I told her I did not want her to have the meeting with him. I told her about the advice I had been getting and that it was unanimous and solidified my already there fears. 

Long story short I compromised, and said a phone call would be okay, but that it needed to be soon. I left for work. About an hour later she texted me "I made the call. It is over."

I then emailed the OM and was firm. I called him out on his role in the issue, admitted mine. Told him never to contact her again, in any way. I was gentle, but very firm. 

My wife is a wreck today and said it feels like a death. Time will tell if she will get over it, but I feel this is a big step in the right direction.

And I am having the party. Time to try to enjoy things a bit more.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Gabriel, I do need to flag that waywards normally renew contact, I suggest you get a VAR and a keylogger, while you may think this is not required, it is. She is not going to break this off, it has to be bled from her system and the OM trust him not, he will want to contact her. How do we know this, waywards follow a script, female waywards are prone to this it ls those love you endorphins they released and it will pull her . Be very vigilant , it will work out however I suspect you have one more round to go before recovery can occur. Do not ever let your wife have a call on her own to the OM again, that was a big mistake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> Your wife is at the same point my wife was at when I ended her EA.
> Get ready, she's probably going to retaliate by telling you she's empty inside, and wants her space.
> She may go into a depression, even suggest a brief separation.
> Warning!
> ...


I believe she called it off. She's experiencing a lot of pain which happens when cutting a strong emotional bond. This certainly doesn't mean they're out of the woods. She's likely to slip up because their bond was so strong. 

I agree with starting the 180 immediately.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Good moves. The big thing I wish you'd done differently, though, was insisting that the phone call be in your presence. Without that, for all you know, the conversation could have been the, "we can speak ever again." conversation she said it was...or could just as easily have been, "He's on to us. We need to lay low for a while and find a means of communicating that he can't monitor."

Taking the EA further underground is, unfortunately, a natural reaction on the part of the cheating spouse. I can attest to that, as can Hurting and any number of other posters around here.

And, yes...assuming she did end it, it's natural and expected (but no less frustrating) that it "feels like a death" to her. She's mourning the death of her "perfect romance" with the "perfect man" who knows her and understands her in ways no other man - especially her husband - ever possibly could. And you are the evil control freak who made her do it. Never mind that it was only "perfect" because they only had to give one another their best...they didn't have to manage the day to day ups and downs of managing a life together.

Stay vigilant. Stay strong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Yes, totally agree with what Eli-Zor is saying. From the vast majority of stories that I've read, the first few months after NC has been established are crucial. Either she or the OM will attempt to fish and renew contact during this period. And since your wife has invested more than a decade in a relationship with this OM, it is a very real possibility. Install the keylogger and get the VAR and install it in her vehicle, usually under the drivers seat. Experience shows that the place that they feel most secure talking to the OP is usually in their vehicle because its their most secure space- if she has a job.

I've seen time and time again, that many times, the wayward spouse will tell their OP that their husband or wife "made" them send the NC lettter/phone call and they simply take it further underground. Just be aware of this.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

grayson said:


> good moves. The big thing i wish you'd done differently, though, was insisting that the phone call be in your presence. Without that, for all you know, the conversation could have been the, "we can speak ever again." conversation she said it was...or could just as easily have been, "he's on to us. We need to lay low for a while and find a means of communicating that he can't monitor."


this


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> I've seen time and time again, that many times, the wayward spouse will tell their OP that their husband or wife "made" them send the NC lettter/phone call and they simply take it further underground. Just be aware of this.



Yes, my W has had about 4 or 5 "It's over" talks with him. It's been so crazy I've lost count. I also erred in not enforcing it be done in front of me. Now, I don't know what the actual conversation was. 

This last time I caught the contact was on a VAR. Radio shack has a small digital one that holds hours of conversation. You can also download it onto your computer.

I was told early on that a keylogger is a great idea. If the affair is continued, you will catch it early. If the affair is over, you will have that extra confirmation that she is telling the truth. I was actually hoping this last time to find nothing. If you find nothing, that is awesome. I believe having these things in place will help you to overcome the trust issue if they show nothing.


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## Undertheradar (May 11, 2011)

<<<<< ----I changed my name.

Had a feeling wifey stumbled across the site.

You'll know who I am, by the deleted posts.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

^ Eh, throw us a bone here. No clue who you are.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I take it 180 means to back off and turn off affection, etc. I believe that is a good idea right this second, anyway. I asked if she wanted to talk about the call with him. She said no, and is CLEARLY having a terrible time of it. I will let her come to me when she is ready and not push it. that is the natural reaction I am having also not even considering the comments. Granted, I haven't physically seen her since the last call. I am still at work.

Her having the call not in my presence doesn't bother me. Frankly, I didn't want to be there. I demanded that method five minutes before leaving for work, and she just wanted to get it over with. And so did I. There was no time to do it before I had to leave and catch my train. It was almost right as I was walking out the door.

Here's the thing. If they break their promise and reconnect again, then our marriage is over. I am at peace with this. If it happens, I cannot stop it. I hope this doesn't happen. But if it does, then that's what's meant to be. I've made my demands.

My email to the OM was very clear. He actually responded and while it was clear he hadn't let go yet, he was more concerned with breaking up our family unit than he was of losing is friend/EA. I told him that his complete and total absence was 100% vital to the survival of our family unit. I dont know how I can be more clear or more appeal to his supposed concerns.

Now we see how it goes. I'm doing the right thing here. And that's all I can do.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Gabriel said:


> Her having the call not in my presence doesn't bother me. Frankly, I didn't want to be there. I demanded that method five minutes before leaving for work, and she just wanted to get it over with. And so did I. There was no time to do it before I had to leave and catch my train. It was almost right as I was walking out the door.


The thing of it is...for what needed to be said, five minutes is more than enough time. "Our relationship was inappropriate and detrimental to my marriage. I am committed to my husband, so there must be no further contact of any kind between us. This decision is not subject to change." *click* end of discussion. Anything more is simply her/them prolonging the relationship and fostering a sense that the star-crossed lovers are being torn asunder by her controlling beast of a husband.



> Here's the thing. If they break their promise and reconnect again, then our marriage is over. I am at peace with this. If it happens, I cannot stop it. I hope this doesn't happen. But if it does, then that's what's meant to be. I've made my demands.


And that's fair enough. By her having the conversation in front of you, you hear confirmation that both of them are on the same page with you and understand the consequences of any future contact. Without knowing the content of the conversation, as I said before, it could very well have been a discussion of how to move their EA underground where they think you won't be able to find it.



> My email to the OM was very clear. He actually responded and while it was clear he hadn't let go yet, he was more concerned with breaking up our family unit than he was of losing is friend/EA. I told him that his complete and total absence was 100% vital to the survival of our family unit. I dont know how I can be more clear or more appeal to his supposed concerns.


Let's make one thing clear: his concerns are NOT about "the survival of your family unit." They're not even close. In fact, it would be better for him if your family unit crumbles, removing you as an obstacle between him, your wife and their "eternal happiness." He may talk a good game about no wanting to break up your family. He's working on your sympathies, painting himself as less of a threat than he is. My wife claimed that her EA partner had changed and respected our marriage. I called BS on that...if he truly respected our marriage, he wouldn't have been part of an EA with my wife, and he would have disappeared from our lives forever when it was first requested of him.



> Now we see how it goes. I'm doing the right thing here. And that's all I can do.


True enough...we can all only do our best. Please, though...avail yourself of the knowledge that many of us have gained only through 20/20 hindsight. Forewarned is forearmed. And knowing what to expect (and how others have handled it - successfully and unsuccessfully) can be a great help to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

I wish you luck and hoping that you are in True R and not False R.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Good luck Gabriel, I wish all the success possible, but do suggest a a VAR and keylogger. Your wife is vulnerable and you need to be able to respond quickly if recontact occurs. Anything else, is enabling her EA.

Happy birthday, enjoy your party.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I don't think I could bring myself to do a VAR, but in case I change my mind, what is that exactly, and where do you get one, and how does it work?

There are two places she would talk to him, if she decides to break the promise. One is sitting in bed. The other is in the car. The bed is more likely because she works only 5 mins away from the house.

Last night was rough. She is in the anger/depression stage. Is very mad I didn't let them meet face to face to say goodbye. One reason for this is that I originally allowed it, and then changed my mind based on everything said here. Then she says, "Well, it doesn't matter anyway. I'm never talking to him again anyway." She is also in denial she had an affair because it never turned PA. She feels she should get credit for never getting physical with him. I reacted pretty strongly to this.

I think I alluded to this earlier, but she was molested by her father when she was 14. This has made her be as needy as she is. It's a very complicated situation. She feels it has ruined her life, made her too needy for reassurance. I knew this when I married her - and I do take some responsibilty because I should have given her that extra care all this time. I didn't think it would bite us in this fashion.

She demanded to see the OM's response to my goodbye email to him, and also my rebuttal. She wanted to see the exchange. I asked why. She said, "I want to see the exchange. I'm already never going to talk to him again, now you're not even going to let me see this?" So I opened my computer and let her read it. I had nothing to hide. I told her I wanted to be done talking about the OM and move on. *My fear is that by them not meeting, she will never feel any closure, and will never move on. But now that I demanded that, I can't go back.* 

Part of that problem was their geography - it was going to take them awhile to be able to meet. I told her that was my major problem - it couldn't keep dragging on. She said, "I would have understood if you said, 'fine, you can meet', but however you do it, it needs to be done within a week, even if that means it has to be a phone call or a 10 minute meeting'"

And in hindsight, that might have been a better solution, but I can't go back now.

Unlike most women, my wife doesn't like when men piss on fire hydrants. Some of my exchange was me pissing on mine to protect my marriage. If I were the wife, I would like it that my husband did that. She just thinks I'm posturing.

So far, she is following the patterns described. She is adamant that she will abide by my rules of not contacting the OM. Thinks I am dumb for listening to strangers instead of believing her. She needs to get through the stage of depression/anger. Not sure how long that will take. It's only been 1 day.

Question, given everything you've heard here, out of 10 couples in this situation, how many do you think survive? Consider the 15 year marriage, 3 kids, etc, etc. I'm thinking 2 or 3 maybe.


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## The 13th_Floor (Mar 7, 2011)

Eli-Zor said:


> Gabriel, I do need to flag that waywards normally renew contact, I suggest you get a VAR and a keylogger, while you may think this is not required, it is. She is not going to break this off, it has to be bled from her system and the OM trust him not, he will want to contact her. How do we know this, waywards follow a script, female waywards are prone to this it ls those love you endorphins they released and it will pull her . Be very vigilant , it will work out however I suspect you have one more round to go before recovery can occur. Do not ever let your wife have a call on her own to the OM again, that was a big mistake.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gabriel,

It's posts like Eli's that pissed me off in the past because my wife would take a step towards recovery, but posters would still be calling her bluff. Turns out, they were all right. Don't let the same happen to you. If she sais it's over, PERFECT, but you shouldn't be worried about snooping until YOU are sure it's over. Listen to Eli-zor...


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

The VAR can be bought online or there are some at Walmart. Buy two and hide them well , test the reception, as a whole they work very well. Here is a two by four , what are you doing, you showed your wife the email why, she has committed ADULTERY this is no time to be nice ,for negotiation and showing her anything that you are saying or doing. You have no idea what they said nor have you an inkling what will happen next, we however have a very good idea from hard experience of the many posters here and on another site.

Assume your wife is going to contact him again and prepare for it.
She is going to be angry and in withdrawal for some time, like months. Hunker down for the long run.
Pay close attention to her body language and deeds if she suddenly changes and becomes more accommodating she has made contact.
Do not go for marriage counceling , not until the affair is dead and buried.
Run what's called Plan A
Buy two books "his need her needs" and " surviving and affair " by Harley 
Do not think you can follow your plan , it won't work. The books will guide you and we will support you , many marriages have been saved keeping to the MB plan. Many have been lost when betrayed spouses ignore the advice. We are here to help save your marriage.

Do not be a doormat, your wife cheated , you cannot and must not trust her, trust is earned over time and with your wife denying the affair this could take a very long time
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

As for her comment about you being dumb for listening to strangers remind her she did not consider you or your marriage when she chose to commit adultery. Do a google search for "emotional affair" they are devastating especially as women fall in love with the OM. 

Hold the line , smile and carry on with life. It will be tense in the house for some time until she starts showing remorse. Spend the next few days reading the books I recommended and leave them where she can see them, if she asks be honest mention there must have been a missing for her to cheat and you are working to make the marriage a better one where both of you meet each others needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Grayson said:


> And that's fair enough. By her having the conversation in front of you, you hear confirmation that both of them are on the same page with you and understand the consequences of any future contact. Without knowing the content of the conversation, as I said before, it could very well have been a discussion of how to move their EA underground where they think you won't be able to find it.


Not calling you out here Grayson, just the concept. I have never understood the purpose of demanding the NC be done in front of the betrayed spouse. If one or both of them is set on continuing it they will no matter what is said. For all you know she may pick up a trak phone at Walmart 30 minutes later. My opinion of this is that it more resembles a parent/child relationship than a partnership in marriage. I chose to have a deadly serious conversation with my wife that either the EA or our marriage was going to end and left on a business trip. When I got back she chose to end the EA, while curious at the time, I had no idea how she did it. Now I really don't care. I didn't see any point in rubbing her nose in the urine soaked carpet. 




Grayson said:


> Let's make one thing clear: his concerns are NOT about "the survival of your family unit." They're not even close. In fact, it would be better for him if your family unit crumbles, removing you as an obstacle between him, your wife and their "eternal happiness." He may talk a good game about no wanting to break up your family. He's working on your sympathies, painting himself as less of a threat than he is. My wife claimed that her EA partner had changed and respected our marriage. I called BS on that...if he truly respected our marriage, he wouldn't have been part of an EA with my wife, and he would have disappeared forever when it was first requested of him.


I *am* calling you out here because you are dead on, correct. This man has purposefully involved himself in your wife's emotions. I had a similar email exchange with TOM many months before I really understood what an EA was. He conned me just as he had been manipulating my wife. Do not believe a thing he says. He is a liar by definition.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Gabriel said:


> Question, given everything you've heard here, out of 10 couples in this situation, how many do you think survive? Consider the 15 year marriage, 3 kids, etc, etc. I'm thinking 2 or 3 maybe.


My marriage not only survived but thrived afterwords. The old adage, what doesn't kill you will make you stronger applies. The unfortunate EA was a shot over the bow that finally woke me up and got my head back in the marriage. The recovery process was what she needed to see to get hers back in also. 

I have no idea how many marriages come back from something like this but I don't see your 20 -30% as being wrong. I consider myself lucky to have recovered. A couple of the other mods were also in the lucky column having their marriages recover from affairs. 

I think you have a good start but take heed in what others are telling you. You may not feel your wife will backslide but it is very possible that it will happen. She can't shut her emotions off to this man like a switch. It'll take months. I applaud your desire to trust in your wife, but snooping or not, transparency or not, promises or not, trust must be earned and it will not happen overnight. How you get there is up to you.


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## Undertheradar (May 11, 2011)

Gabriel,

My wife had the epiphany yesterday. She told me all the wonderful things I wanted to hear.
By last night, she was reminding me why she wanted to leave.... again.

Emotions are a rollercoaster ride. Buckle up, and go for the ride.

Here's something to help you go forward:

A 180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. I would highly suggest that any new BS begin these behaviors as soon as possible. .
No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive. (Making it) 

So here's the list: 

Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore. 
No frequent phone calls. 
Don't point out "good points" in marriage. 
Don't follow her/him around the house. 
Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future. 
Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS. 
Don't ask for reassurances. 
Don't buy or give gifts. 
Don't schedule dates together. 
Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable. 
Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life! 
Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent. 
Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy! 
When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to! 
If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested. 
Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the WS)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? with out them! 
Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing. 
No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value. 
All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation! 
Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF! 
Don't be overly enthusiastic. 
Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all! 
Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more! 
Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything. 
Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil. 
Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly. 
Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write. 
Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy. 
Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care! 
Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior. 
Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!" 
Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message. 
When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW."

*I will admit that I have been doing 100% of OF THE ABOVE LIST, that I SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DOING!!!
It has played a major role in my failure as a husband*


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

This is awesome stuff. Thanks so much. Amp, you are my hero.

One question - the whole reason we got to this place was because I wasn't meeting my wife's needs emotionally or being attentive. The 180 list is a pull back of being attentive. Our marriage won't make it if I pull back for very long. Some of the points are dead on, like moving on with my other areas, not being pathetic, but strong instead, etc. Totally agree with those. Also agree with not begging and pleading.

But at some point I have to demonstrate my attentiveness or it will end. What is the time frame for that? Do I back off for a few days, do I check in with her to see how she's doing to show I care about her feelings? Me caring about her feelings is really important to her.

I need to strike this balance appropriately. Any advice?


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Search my posts for Plan A, combine this with the 180. Be warned the 180 is to harden you as it assumes there is a likelihood your wife is leaving or you have caught her resuming the affair. Pick most of the 180 and run Plan A in parallel . Then if here is a slip-up or she does not change her behaviour or actively work on the marriage go full 180 and change gear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> Not calling you out here Grayson, just the concept. I have never understood the purpose of demanding the NC be done in front of the betrayed spouse. If one or both of them is set on continuing it they will no matter what is said. For all you know she may pick up a trak phone at Walmart 30 minutes later. My opinion of this is that it more resembles a parent/child relationship than a partnership in marriage. I chose to have a deadly serious conversation with my wife that either the EA or our marriage was going to end and left on a business trip. When I got back she chose to end the EA, while curious at the time, I had no idea how she did it. Now I really don't care. I didn't see any point in rubbing her nose in the urine soaked carpet.


No worries; it's all good. I'm fully aware that being in the room for the NC conversation is no guarantee that the NC will be followed. It happened to me, even. I heard the voice mail my wife left that said, and I quote, "We're done. Keeping in touch with you isn't worth the drama it brings to my marriage." but, a little over a year later, the texts and phone calls resumed. But, I still think hearing the conversation - at least one side, if not both on speaker or extension - can be valuable in that if/when contact resumes, it allows you to say - if only to yourself - "I heard, with my own ears, you told the OM/OW that contact is done forever." You know that the conversation that established the NC truly did so, rather than being either a planning session to go underground or a dismissal that the LS is just being an overbearing jerk...everything will be back to normal in a few weeks once this blows over.

So, yeah...if they want to resume/continue contact, they will. I just like the notion of the NC notification being immediate and with the LS present (if it's written, reviewing the email/letter and being the one to send), so that if/when NC is broken, there's no wiggle room for the DS, as both spouses know exactly what was said, and the consequences are whatever they are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I have probably acted too quickly on a number of things, but I've done some things right.

Eli-Zor, I found your post on Plan A. I have done everything on the stick EXCEPT refusing to accept blame. That one is big. I've been admitting my part of the blame in this all over the place, and I can't take it back now. But I have 100% done all the others.

Regarding the carrot, it seems that comes next right? I 100% will stay strong, not be pathetic, and move forward confidently in other areas. The carrot of Plan A seems to be more of the reasurring, I'm here when you're ready, I'm not going anywhere, I'm solid and I'm forgiving you step (combined with the not pleading, begging, etc, of the 180), correct? I think that makes sense, and is appropriate. I'm glad I asked to crack these codes you all have been speaking in - it helps.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Grayson said:


> So, yeah...if they want to resume/continue contact, they will. I just like the notion of the NC notification being immediate and with the LS present (if it's written, reviewing the email/letter and being the one to send), so that if/when NC is broken, there's no wiggle room for the DS, as both spouses know exactly what was said, and the consequences are whatever they are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I definitely agree. I was present when my wife sent the NC email so that there can be no confusion or doubt in my mind about what was said. That was closure for the affair. If NC is broken, then that is the deal breaker and I can proceed with the consequences with a clear conscience.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Gabriel said:


> I think I alluded to this earlier, but she was molested by her father when she was 14. This has made her be as needy as she is. It's a very complicated situation. She feels it has ruined her life, made her too needy for reassurance. I knew this when I married her - and I do take some responsibilty because I should have given her that extra care all this time. I didn't think it would bite us in this fashion.


It's horrible that this happened to her, and may help understand some of the underlying mindset that led her to see nothing wrong with investing emotionally with another man, but make no mistake: it doesnt EXCUSE her behavior. She still made a choice to emotionally give herself to someone else.

And, I'm not just spewing rhetoric here. My wife's parents essentially abandoned her, sending her to live with her grandmother when she was 4 and they divorced. So, she's got abandonment issues. Both of her parents are alcoholics, so she's prone to addiction; while she goes to great lengths to avoid alcoholism, her addictive personality has seemed to manifest on an addiction to sexual/romantic attention. Her parents divorced because of her mother's serial cheating, so she has that as a behavior example growing up. And, as a freshman in HS, she was repeatedly date-raped by her boyfriend, giving her quite a few issues regarding sex and the power it wields. None of that, however, changes the fact that SHE chose to carry on an extended EA with someone who saw himself as the chief rival for her affections when we first started dating. SHE is the one who chose to have sex with someone she'd known for 3 weeks, after telling a close friend she wasn't going to because she didn't want to cheat on me. Like you, I own my contributions to any distance that had grown between us, but SHE is the one who decided to go outside our marriage, emotionally and physically.



> She demanded to see the OM's response to my goodbye email to him, and also my rebuttal. She wanted to see the exchange. I asked why. She said, "I want to see the exchange. I'm already never going to talk to him again, now you're not even going to let me see this?" So I opened my computer and let her read it. I had nothing to hide. I told her I wanted to be done talking about the OM and move on. *My fear is that by them not meeting, she will never feel any closure, and will never move on. But now that I demanded that, I can't go back.*


She wanted her "fix" of the OM...she wanted to see how he fought for her...how he fought for their relationship. When my wife sent what will be - one way or another - her final NC email to her EA partner, he emailed her back, ignoring it. She told me. I emailed home (and blind copied her) firmly telling him that he needed to go away and stop disrespecting our marriage. He replied (copying her...we figure he decided that I sent the NC through her email and she was unaware of what was transpiring), and tried to bait me into a heated response to him. I *almost* took the bait, but thought better of it. I just responded to his comment that if I saw him as a threat, he didn't know what to say, and simply told him: "You only need to know how to say one thing: goodbye. Forever." We then blocked him from all email and chat access.

On short, pardon my bluntness, but...screw "closure." All the "closure" that she will get is, "We can't communicate anymore. Goodbye." No "I'll miss you. You've always been there for me." Allowing such "closure" sends the message that you agree to the relationship's importance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Well, what's done is done. I'm not backing up and saying for her to go ahead with a meeting anyway. And I flat out asked her if that's what she was asking me to do. She said no.

It's funny, the stages. 

Upon discovery, I was the one bawling and coming to her and feeling awful and needing to know everything. And yes, she blamed me for driving her there, but she did acknowledge that what she did was wrong. She acknowledged that my failures didn't make it right what she did, and the better move would have been to wait longer for my changes or divorce me. She beat herself up pretty good.

Now with the OM cut off, she's the angry/depressed one that wants to know what I said to him, his response, etc. She's the one hurt. She's reluctant to use the word affair (like affair only meant if they had sex). She said given the "punishment" she might as well have gone all the way - like she got no credit for her restraint in that regard. And I'm the one sitting back, the more emotionally stable one. 

Just quite the process, isn't it?

I thought about what I consider to be 3 basic types of affairs, and their relative severity.

1) EA only, like mine
2) EA that turns PA
3) PA only

#2 to me, would be the worst. You gave the OM/OW your heart, and it got so intense you decided to give up your body too. If a #2 happened, I dont' think I could ever recover. And wouldn't expect someone to recover if I had done it.

#3 to me, would be the easiest to withstand. Like a drunken one night stand because you were horny - or you like a girl's ass and banged her in the bathroom. Or even a prostitute or something. This is a primal thing we all battle and I think easiest to forgive.

#1 is in the middle somewhere


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

They are all bad. But I think EA and PA = the worst, like someone else said.


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## Undertheradar (May 11, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Well, what's done is done. I'm not backing up and saying for her to go ahead with a meeting anyway. And I flat out asked her if that's what she was asking me to do. She said no.
> 
> It's funny, the stages.
> 
> ...


The above statement concerns me, and sounds as if she's preparing herself for a counter attack.
She's looking for an excuse, and she might be trying to give herself one.
Just my opinion.


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## The 13th_Floor (Mar 7, 2011)

Yep, the #2 blows. I should know. My D-day was February 18th, and I'm not even remotely close to the stage you're at...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

Gabriel said:


> My fear is that by them not meeting, she will never feel any closure, and will never move on. But now that I demanded that, I can't go back.


She would had NOT gotten closure from meeting him, usually just to opposite happens.

I stupidly let my wife get "closure" by letting her meet up with the OM at a restaurant to talk. By "closure" I mean "her leaving me 2 weeks later and promising to marry the OM and filing for a divorce".

Dollars to donuts this is far from over.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Gabriel said:


> Now with the OM cut off, she's the angry/depressed one that wants to know what I said to him, his response, etc. She's the one hurt. She's reluctant to use the word affair (like affair only meant if they had sex). She said given the "punishment" she might as well have gone all the way - like she got no credit for her restraint in that regard. And I'm the one sitting back, the more emotionally stable one.


That one always makes me shake my head in wonder...that the DS views being held to the vows they made to their spouse, that having to end an inappropriate relationship, that having to face the consequences (such as loss of trust) that come from their betrayal is all a "punishment." in my anger and disbelief, I didn't feel like speaking to my wife for a few days. He exact question to me was to ask how long I was going to treat her "like a leper." As if I had a switch that could turn off the anger and resentment a being disrespected in such a way and speak to her as if nothing happened.

And, no...she DOESN'T get any "credit" for "only" having an EA and not letting it get physical. Take what comfort you can in knowing she's sti following the proverbial script. Many spouses who engage "only" in an EA refuse to acknowledge it as an affair for the very same reason your wife doesn't. It took quite a lot of time, turmoil and reflection for my wife to accept that term for her EA.

You've had several books recommended to you. Allow me, if I may, to add to your reading list: "NOT 'Just Friends.'" unfortunately, I can't recall the author, but I think it might fit your situation well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> #2 to me, would be the worst. You gave the OM/OW your heart, and it got so intense you decided to give up your body too. If a #2 happened, I dont' think I could ever recover. And wouldn't expect someone to recover if I had done it.


To me, an EA is only the prelude to the PA. The PA is just the icing on the cake. So no, she gets no brownie points for just being an EA. They have to get their fix, and pretty soon, texting, chatting, emailing, talking on the phone won't be enough and they will find a way to make the PA happen and consumate their relationship/affair. Meeting to get closure is just another way to get the fix, OR as others have said, just a meeting to find out how to take it further underground. Cold turkey is best in this situation.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Grayson said:


> I just like the notion of the NC notification being immediate and with the LS present (if it's written, reviewing the email/letter and being the one to send), so that if/when NC is broken, there's no wiggle room for the DS, as both spouses know exactly what was said, and the consequences are whatever they are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Point taken, hadn't considered that. I still wouldn't have done it in our case. The line in the sand was crystal clear. In Gabriel's case, he's right, what's done is done. Back-peddling will only send mixed signals.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

ArmyofJuan said:


> She would had NOT gotten closure from meeting him, usually just to opposite happens.


100% accurate.

You cannot at all get over someone if you are in contact with them. Even seeing them or a tiny text message, sets you way way back.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Indeed. And with "only" an EA, if the DS doesn't see anything wrong with their relationship...doesn't see it as an affair, they are far more likely to fall back into the EA. They don't (or or refuse to) understand that even normal, innocuous conversation rekindles the inappropriate emotional intimacy that they share(d). What starts as a one-time "happy birthday" gets a reply. Which grows to an occasional, "Just thought I'd say hi and see how you're doing." becomes more frequent conversation, and before you know it, they're right back in the thick of their EA, but probably further underground.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Grayson, this comment really sounds like what could happen. Hence the complete cut off. You put that very eloquently and clearly.

Now I have to do the Plan A, partial 180, and see if they ever rekindle. The hard part is waiting to see if that will happen. That part is going to kill me.

I just bought His Needs Her Needs and will read it openly in her presence.

It really is like a drug. And when you're addicted to a drug, you don't get closure by taking one more massive hit from the pipe. That hit just makes you want it more.

She said she would stop all contact. So did he. She is mourning. I have to let her mourn like the pattern says. I don't want to keep talking about the OM, their relationship, etc. Need to focus on she and I, our marriage.

I don't want to know any more about the past, what was said between them, like Amplexor. Why drudge it up? It's all about what happens from here. His marriage got stronger as a result. I'm hoping ours follows his pattern. We'll see if she's strong enough to not cave in to her addiction to him.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Grayson said:


> And with "only" an EA, if the DS doesn't see anything wrong with their relationship...


The DS always knows when a relationship is inappropriate. 

The question is: will they end it or not?


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

In most cases, I wholeheartedly agree, Jellybeans. I believe there are some, however, who are so deep in denial and/or the "fog" that they believe their own "we're just friends" line of nonsense, and so don't see anything inappropriate about the relationship (it's certainly not an affair to them); they just believe that their spouse has a dislike of their "friend."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

With all due respect, I firmly disagree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

It's a fair disagreement.

I certainly don't think it excuses their behavior. I just think that some people have a tremendous capacity for self-delusion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

UPDATE:

Things have been going quite well. My wife has honored the NC (it's only been a few days). I have not shown her this board but told her a few things, been openly reading His Needs/Her Needs in front of her, and gone over some things in there with her. She is grateful for my efforts, and while she still misses her friend, she isn't as depressed as before. It's faded some. 

She has admitted her faults in the EA, admitted it was addicting, admitted that she understands that life with the OM never actually works out in these situations. 

What I have learned in this extremely intense, extremely accelerated process, is that my wife was far more broken from her childhood than I really understood. I assumed she was stronger than she was. My challenge is to keep feeding her needs for affection and admiration, while I recover from being hurt. Vaporing the OM has done wonders. The advice to not let the meeting happen was SPOT ON. 

I have told her that my supporters have said the cheater contacts the OM again, more often than they don't. She said she would beat the odds. She knows the stakes. I've made them clear. Hopefully the addiction will fade each day they don't speak.

I know we aren't out of the woods, and I know that if I fall off and begin not meeting her needs again, I invite the temptation for her to contact the OM again. I also know that if I do meet those needs, she won't need anyone else. This is how she is going to operate given how broken she is. It won't be easy, but I think we are going to be okay.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

A heads up for you, with the long term relationship your wife had with the OM she should be in serious withdrawal , keep vigilant , if she does not start portaying some outward emotional and behaviour changes then there is a strong chance they are in contact. It is rare when an affair is exposed that they do not initiate contact even if it is reading old letters, looking at pictures etc. Ensure you remove all triggers for her and you, no contact is no contact of everything that is a trigger. Keep an eye open , work on the marriage and alas know that you can never trust her the same way as you did in the past.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Gabriel,

You and your wife must read the late Dr Shirley Glass' book 'Not Just Friends'. Unlike Dr Willard Harley's emphasis on unmet emotional needs as the major source of infidelity, Dr Glass shows examples of how even happily married couples can fall into affairs by simply crossing marital boundaries like your wife did with the OM. 

I'm not knocking Dr Harley's book, in fact it should be required reading for everyone who is considering a committed relationship - as well as his other book 'Love Busters'.

An EA can hurt just as much as a PA for many people, but it can become worse when it becomes a full blown affair (EA/PA).


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Best of luck to you and your W
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Eli - that is a concern. When I confronted her with the "science" of this - meaning the addiction/withdrawal piece, she admitted it was very hard, and that it was like a drug. She is in withdrawal, and she knows it. But we have had a few really good days, and when we have good days of intimate closeness, her withdrawal pain is markedly decreased. With her, it's really a cause and effect. She also knows I will likely end the marriage if I find out they have had contact, and that scares the living sh*t out of her, which is exactly what it is supposed to do.

She said, "I want to be addicted to you, not him. I always have." 

Thanks for all the support everyone. It's been my lifeline.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

> She also knows I will likely end the marriage if I find out they have had contact, and that scares the living sh*t out of her, which is exactly what it is supposed to do.


This fear may be enough. Stay on top of it but do not vex to much or it will cause undue stress you. 

I suggest if she reads those books it must be once she is past withdrawal , it will not help her at this stage.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Do not tell her about this website. Keep this for you only.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Rehashing a bit here, but given my wife begged me to meet her needs for years and I didn't deliver (work with me here, it actually is true), she went to girlfriends for help first, etc. The question that neither of us can answer is this:

Given all that, what should she have done? The only thing she can come up with is that she could have asked for a trial separation or divorce instead of having the EA. Is there any other answer?

She is dealing with anger. Anger at me for ignoring her jumping up and down in front of me for years, which has now cost her her friendship with one of her best friends (the OM). Anger at herself for letting herself reach the breaking point. Angry for the years of pain. Anger at herself for hurting me. It's tough. 

At the same time we have made significant strides, have been very affectionate, worked out some things. She is heeding the NC. Still work to do.

Anyone have the answer to my above question? It's a sticking point right now. Maybe her own answer was the only other way?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Well you asked her a question and she answered. So that is her final answer. So you need to accept that is what she feels/believes. 

In the interim, work on your own issues.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

UPDATE:

Things for the past 2 weeks have been going great.....until today.

At lunch my wife texted me that she was having a bad day. I called her and we talked for an hour. Bottom line is that she feels she got no closure with the OM during the NC phone call and said she feels she'll never be able to completely heal and move on properly with me until she does. She said, I'm not asking to meet him or even call, but there were things left unsaid. I just want to send him one last email to get it all out. I guess the NC call was knee-jerk and they spent 90% of it talking about how shocking it was that this would be their last conversation.

I lamented on this for awhile, and said, well, if you must do this, I would like to read the email you send. She said "forget it. It will hurt you to see me say how important he was to me (extremely close friends for 20 years), and I won't say what I need to say knowing you'll see it."

I held firm and said that's the only way I can condone it. She is totally upset. I told her that it won't provide closure, only open things up more - even if you tell him to never respond, you'll always wonder what he reaction was, what he would have said back to you, etc. And it never ends. She said, "well, then just expect me to be 'like this' forever" meaning, intermittenly sad, angry, etc. She said not having closure will not allow her to properly let go and go forward with me at full force. Not having closure will make it much more difficult for her to fall back in love with me.

Thing is, she is one of these people that thinks when it comes to her feelings and actions, she knows herself, and will never listen to books, doctors, etc. "They don't know me." She thinks she knows it all. 

She also is holding a lot of anger toward me since I could have prevented this from happening. She understands what she did was wrong, but says if I just listened all these years and met her needs we wouldn't be in this position. And really, that is a true statement, which makes this harder.

This just f*cking sucks so bad. And tomorrow she leaves for vacation with her girlfriends for 6 days. 

Any encouraging words would be helpful right now. We were doing so well and I feel we stepped almost all the way back today.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Unfortunately, the only encouraging words I can provide are that she's following the existing script and pattern of DS's to the letter.

With this vacation, and her desire for "closure," be prepared to learn at some point that she contacted the OM while she was away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Definitely possible. I can't stop that. What does DS stand for?

She won't have her laptop with her but certainly she has the phone. 

Ironically one of her friends that is going on this trip is sort of in my corner - and it's caused my wife to be weary of this friend of hers - she is confident that if we divorced her friend would "be all over me". So I suppose that person might possibly out her if it becomes apparent she's communicating with him (I'm not at ALL interested in her friend, for the record).

But I can't worry about it. Honestly. Because it can't be controlled. I can only hope she continues to heed, and be prepared if I find out she doesn't.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Was in a rush with that last post.

You made the right call, insisting that you must see the email she wants to send. Ideally, there shouldn't be that next email..."no contact" means NO contact. Her response to you to either allow her private contact or to "expect" her to be miserable is right on script: she's acting like an addict going through withdrawal, lashing out at the person depriving her of getting her next fix. Odds are, while on her vacation, away from your watchful eye, she'll make contact with the OM...text, phone, email...any or all of these methods. But, my gut tells me contact will be made. In your shoes, I'd prepare for that likelihood and also possibly put in place a way of confirming (keylogger on a laptop, if she takes one...checking cell phone records through your carrier, etc). She'll be applying the "what happens on vacation stays on vacation" philosophy, and figure that you'll never know she contacted him while she was out of town.

Stick to your guns, and be prepared for what seems almost inevitable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Bottom line is that she feels she got no closure with the OM during the NC phone call and said she feels she'll never be able to completely heal and move on properly with me until she does. She said, I'm not asking to meet him or even call, but there were things left unsaid. I just want to send him one last email to get it all out. I guess the NC call was knee-jerk and they spent 90% of it talking about how shocking it was that this would be their last conversation.
> 
> *I lamented on this for awhile, and said, well, if you must do this, I would like to read the email you send. She said "forget it. It will hurt you to see me say how important he was to me (extremely close friends for 20 years), and I won't say what I need to say knowing you'll see it."*
> 
> I held firm and said that's the only way I can condone it. She is totally upset. I told her that it won't provide closure, only open things up more - even if you tell him to never respond, you'll always wonder what he reaction was, what he would have said back to you, etc. And it never ends. *She said, "well, then just expect me to be 'like this' forever*" meaning, intermittenly sad, angry, etc. She said not having closure will not allow her to properly let go and go forward with me at full force. Not having closure will make it much more difficult for her to fall back in love with me.


Sounds like a spoiled brat. 

She will call him on her girl's trip. Bet.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

And, you replied while I was typing, addressing some of my points in advance.

DS=Disloyal Spouse
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

^ I hate posting on phones LOL

No contact means no contact. Clearly she feels she's above that. This is why I told you a few pages back, "Never underestimate the power of an EA."

DID YOU TELL OM's WIFE???? Did she respond to you?????


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> You cannot at all get over someone if you are in contact with them. Even seeing them or a tiny text message, sets you way way back.


Just quoted myself (weird) but this is the truth and relative to what we're discussing. 



Jellybeans said:


> 100% accurate.
> 
> You cannot at all get over someone if you are in contact with them. Even seeing them or a tiny text message, sets you way way back.


No contact.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

The OM is not married. No girlfriend. He is, however, insulating his family from it, as far as I know (none of us have had contact for 2 weeks). I have no idea how to reach his family. He lives about 40 miles or 60-90 minutes away, with millions of people in between. It's a drive - his life is otherwise very separate from ours.

Like everyone said, it's a long road. We'll see where it goes. She and I have a 4-day trip planned away from the kids, in about a month. That's either going to be fantastic or terrible.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Do you have access to her phone records? Of course, she could also use the internet in a public library to contact him. Should be interesting, I hope she remains committed to NC. Best of luck.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Sounds like a spoiled brat.
> 
> She will call him on her girl's trip. Bet.


Yes, likely on a prepaid cell phone so there is no trace. Her telling you she wants to call with 6 days filled with opportunity. I'm sorry for you, but that's why I told you at first that your title underestimates the power of the EA. Sorry to sound pessimistic, but I have been there (too many times).


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

And believe me, if anyone can give you advice having been there on the front lines, it's TN. 

Heed his his words. He knows.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

A bright, shiny nickle says that, despite being so dramatically desponden at the lack of "closure," she'll come home downright giddy.

Because she'll have gotten her fix.

And, not to sound too paranoid, but...anyone else having the thought that her friend who's "on Gabriel's side" might be a "double agent" recruited by the wife for the purpose of enabling contact with the OM on this trip? After all...if the inside source comes back and says, "No...she behaved. Didn't contact him...didn't even talk about him." she's got her plausible alibi going, and can resume the EA with little suspicion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Yep, she might be giddy, and that will be a giveaway. How do you trace a cell phone? She is not very tech savvy - I highly doubt she is going to use a prepaid phone (besides, I see all the finances on every possible card/bank account we have).

I just looked and Sprint won't allow deleted txt messages to be accessed without a signed court order, so that is out. So, is there another way to see what calls/texts they made with the phone either as they do it, or after the log is deleted?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Can you get online and look at the call log's history on Spring's site?


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Your online bill should allow you the ability to see all numbers calling/called and all numbers that texts were sent to/from. You don't need to see the content of the texts...just whether or not any calls or texts were made to or from his number. No contact means NO CONTACT. Doesn't matter if she just said, "Hi." what matters is whether or not she broke NC.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Sprint does not show numbers texted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Yep, she might be giddy, and that will be a giveaway. How do you trace a cell phone? She is not very tech savvy - I highly doubt she is going to use a prepaid phone (besides, I see all the finances on every possible card/bank account we have).


And why wouldn't she use a prepaid cellphone? That's like one of the main tools cheaters use. She can say she's taking cash out of the ATM because she needs cash, then go to the store and buy the phone.



Gabriel said:


> I just looked and Sprint won't allow deleted txt messages to be accessed without a signed court order, so that is out. So, is there another way to see what calls/texts they made with the phone either as they do it, or after the log is deleted?


Try Mobistealth, or Mobile Spy and load it on to her phone if she has a smart phone. Check their sites to see if her phone is compatible. Depending on the version you buy, you can just monitor calls and text messages, to the deluxe version where you can download and listen directly to her phone conversations, or use it as a secret microphone.

MobiStealth | Mobile Spy Software, Cell Phone Spy Monitoring, GPS Tracking App For $39.99 | iPhone, Blackberry, Android Spyware

Mobile Spy - Monitor SMS Text Messages, Call Info and GPS Locations on iPhone, BlackBerry, Android, Windows Mobile and Symbian OS Smartphones. Spy Software for Monitoring your Cell Phone

That is if your SURE she won't get a disposable secret cell phone.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey Gabriel---why is your wife going on a 6 day vacation w/out you---what type of vacation?---Where???---what is the reason for the vacation????

IMHO---you got a lot more to be worried about, with the vacation, than her EA partner----she is already somewhat pissed at you---and believe me, that is plenty of justification for her having a little sexcapade, while on vacation

The excuses you are throwing about you having someone on the trip with her, are just that, meaningless excuses for yourself---if your wife wants to cheat, and satisfy herself, she will do so, and your friend won't even know---actually how many of her GF's on the trip, are having their own problems, and maybe looking for a little on the side---and please do not be so naive, as to think for one minute this doesn't happen---A LOT----

Please don't tell me I have no idea of what I am talking about,----the world is full of these type of trips, and the innocent spouse at home NEVER FINDS OUT

As to your wife and her wanting to restart contact---NO WAY--She still has him on her mind---the only way this ends--is that has stopped, and it stays that way---She got her chance, and that is it----If she talks to him again, no good can come from that last conversation---they will say things, that will stick in their minds, about what might have been, and in a moment of weakness, or with justification, bang!!!!!, they are right back in contact---and if you think 40 miles, is gonna keep them apart---then you had better think again---if they really wanted to get together they would, it takes very little to justify anything to one who WANTS to cheat!!!!

You asked a question earlier---what should have your wife done---to get your attention, and keep it----Threaten divorce, probably was her only other option---but she certainly has your attention now!!!!!!

Your wife carried on a EA, behind your back, you managed to "out" it-----but be very careful---you just might be treading in deep water with her vacation---she knows how to be deceitful, and to lie to you----so unfortunately you do have a problem with her vacation

Prior to this "outing" of her EA, you would have trusted her----now you can't/don't---but as I said before, these girls trips are a definite vehicle for PA's that you will never know about

Sorry to have to throw this at you---but the truth needs to be faced about what is going on.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

A 6 day vacation without you so soon after confrontation is a no no. The spyware recommended for the phone does work, load it. I strongly suggest you sit with her and have a conversation based on trust , her going away is not a way to install trust particularly since she is pinning for him. It is not controlling for you to request she cancells, her affair was controlling and she should be working to save your marriage, any other action is a red flag.No contact is no contact, her being away gives her the opportunity to restart the affair, she may even call from the hotel phone. The affair script says she will contact him again and is looking for the time and place ,what are you going to do then? As for closure bulls*#t it is excuse to rekindle and replan the affair.

She must not go on the 6 day trip, it's is an opportunity for the affair to restart. Be frank with her, it is not your fear of her going away it is her lack of control and desire to contact him that's the issue. Not going on the trip is a consequence of her adultery and any unwillingness to cancel implies she is not taking you seriously.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

I hadn't even considered the hotel phone. In this era of cell phones, I always ignore the room phone when I have to travel. So, yep...she'll definitely contact him. I'd say he wouldn't even object to accepting a collect call, so there wouldn't even be a large impact to the expected hotel bill. If she goes, NC will be out the window, and the EA will be back on, taken underground in the hope you won't detect it. The vacation will serve as a convenient excuse for her sudden shift in attitude: "I just needed the time away to reflect on everything, recharge my batteries and rest. Now, my head is clear, and everything is fine."

Wonder how difficult, over this Memorial Day weekend, it would be for him to take an impromptu vacation of his own...?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Wow, these are some strong comments.

1) She didn't have sex with him. Sex was not the basic need I wasn't meeting with her. He was filling emotional needs while I was "out to lunch" so to speak. Her having a tryst on vacation with some random guy is not an issue. She is not like that, even now. We have extremely fulfilling sex still. Contacting the OM while away is, however, something I worry about.

2) This trip is an annual thing with the same bunch of friends every year. They go to Arizona, at her friend's brother's house who has a pool, etc. It was planned way in advance, way before DDay. Women go on girls trips. It's common. Some of my friends' wives go on similar trips. These aren't trips to "get some". 100% confident, especially knowing the girls she's going with.

3) You guys are over-emphasizing my reliance on her friend that's in my corner. I am not even talking to her friend about this, and won't ask her what my wife was doing. All I am saying is this particular friend has, for a long time, had an affinity for me and is less sympathetic for my wife than others. My wife is a little insecure about her (although she has no reason to be from my standpoint), and has told me so well before DDay. It's not a ploy, or something I am relying upon. But she is someone my wife will be cognizant about. 


4) Asking her to not go on this trip, something she cherishes so much, would have been the final straw. She is already struggling with me not allowing a one last email to him. We spoke this morning before she left. She said, "All I ever wanted was to get all this from you, nobody else. That's all I want. I just need to get over this (the OM). I just have to. I hope I can." This was her relenting on her continuation to ask for one more email. We ended that on a good note, had a big meaningful hug and some encouraging words for each other.

5) I figured out how to check the Sprint call log online. I'll be watching it closely. It won't monitor texts. It won't stop any secret cell phone (or borrowing her friend's phone), but I can't stop or monitor a secret cell phone when I can't tell if it exists. Not really sure what I can do about that. She has to make the decision to continue the affair or to end it and re-commit to the marriage. I can't make that decision for her. In the meantime, I do Plan A, and hope that is enough to meet her needs and reduce the temptation of rekindling things with the OM.

6) I've made some mistakes since DDay. I've slipped 2-3 times from the modified 180, and every time it has bit me in the butt. I have to stay strong, not expose my pain to her, or continue to question things, bring old things up. I have to work on being a better me, and doing Plan A, and if she doesn't want to come along for the ride it is her loss.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Did you tell his wife?? I am sorry but I can't remember...


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> 4) Asking her to not go on this trip, something she cherishes so much, would have been the final straw.


And her wanting to reach out to the man she cheated on you with isn't?

Good luck.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Jelly Beans - the OM is not married. Never has been. Engaged once a long time ago. A girlfriend from time to time but not in a long time.

Her asking for one more email to let it all out set me back pretty far. I actually got a visceral reaction from it and my body started shaking as if I were going into shock. This was via phone too, when I was on lunch and she was home. I stuck to my guns though.

Well, the Sprint records for the period between the NC on 5/11 and 5/22 just became available this morning (5/23 to present was already available - long story). And she has honored the NC as far as calls from/to the cell goes. Email too. Can't monitor texts. Funny, looking back at the prior bills I found that in Feb and March there were almost zero calls between them. I think it was 2 short ones in two months. Well within normal for a friend. But on 4/23 (not coincidentally this was the date of the email I discovered between them which began DDay), it exploded. There were calls every day from 4/23 to 5/5 (DDay), some were long. Then a couple between 5/5 (DDay) and 5/11 (NC day). Nothing after 5/11. No other suspicious calls. If she has broken the NC it was by text. Given her fighting to send one last email, and her depression/anger, she falls into the pattern of someone honoring the NC as well. Nice to see it backed up by phone records.

I will keep watching and not tell her I'm checking them.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Gabriel said:


> Wow, these are some strong comments.
> 
> 1) She didn't have sex with him. Sex was not the basic need I wasn't meeting with her. He was filling emotional needs while I was "out to lunch" so to speak. Her having a tryst on vacation with some random guy is not an issue. She is not like that, even now. We have extremely fulfilling sex still. Contacting the OM while away is, however, something I worry about.


Never rule out normally uncharacteristic behavior on the part of an addict denied their fix. She's already demonstrated her willingness and ability to step outside the marital bounds emotionally with the OM. Now, you've flushed her drug down the toilet by preventing her "closure" email. An addict deprived of that next fix always has the possibility of looking to emulate that fix elsewhere. That's not to say she WILL have sex with a random guy on her vacation, just that, in her current state of mind, it's not something to dismiss out of hand.



> 2) This trip is an annual thing with the same bunch of friends every year. They go to Arizona, at her friend's brother's house who has a pool, etc. It was planned way in advance, way before DDay. Women go on girls trips. It's common. Some of my friends' wives go on similar trips. These aren't trips to "get some". 100% confident, especially knowing the girls she's going with.


Existing plans happen, regardless of what else may crop up. Under current circumstances, ideally, she should have volunteered to stay home and work on the marriage. Going off essentially on her own right on the heels of asking your permission to break NC demonstrates that rebuilding may not be her top priority.

A friend/co-worker was having marital problems last year, and he and I were scheduled to go on a work trip. He spoke to his boss, explained the situation, and didn't go. And that was for something work related, with a cancellation that could have potentially impacted his job. Yet, he determined that staying home to work on his marriage mattered more to him. Your wife determined that a week with the girls was more important to her.



> 3) You guys are over-emphasizing my reliance on her friend that's in my corner. I am not even talking to her friend about this, and won't ask her what my wife was doing. All I am saying is this particular friend has, for a long time, had an affinity for me and is less sympathetic for my wife than others. My wife is a little insecure about her (although she has no reason to be from my standpoint), and has told me so well before DDay. It's not a ploy, or something I am relying upon. But she is someone my wife will be cognizant about.


Fair enough. I was of the impression that she was aware of the EA situation and had made it known she supported you.



> 4) Asking her to not go on this trip, something she cherishes so much, would have been the final straw. She is already struggling with me not allowing a one last email to him. We spoke this morning before she left. She said, "All I ever wanted was to get all this from you, nobody else. That's all I want. I just need to get over this (the OM). I just have to. I hope I can." This was her relenting on her continuation to ask for one more email. We ended that on a good note, had a big meaningful hug and some encouraging words for each other.


You asking her not to go in light of the current situation would have been "the last straw." Meanwhile, asking your permission to break NC was, apparently, a reasonable request to her.

Unfortunately, that speaks volumes to her point of view regarding rebuilding trust and the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Grayson, you make good points. The "last straw" comment is not something she told me. It's something I just feel. Who knows, maybe she would have honored the request. I didn't request she stay home. She expressed a lot of worry about how I would be doing while she was gone. I've lost my sh*t a couple of times - going against the 180 plan. But as part of the 180, I stayed strong, said I would be just fine here with the kids, and that I'll be okay. So while it may have been the right thing for her to do (canceling), I am okay with it and need to show her my strength here. 

We are scheduled to take a trip out of town for 4 days in about a month. She did express that she wished this weekend was that trip and not this one. Frankly, I think 1/2 of her is still denial - she wants life to be "normal" - the drastic change of following the NC with the OM is as much change as she can handle.

When I stuck to my guns about the email, she eventually backed down and said she wouldn't ask me again, although it took a lot of arguing throughout the day to get there. She had a weak moment, things are backing up on her, and she was desperate for a release. She knows how I feel, will honor that, I think. We'll see.

Like I've said before, I want this to work, but am prepared for the alternative. At some point you have to stop worrying, put in your efforts, and things will happen that are supposed to happen, good or bad.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Question: what would be your "last straw?"


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Great question Jelly Beans.

I am checking the Sprint phone records. If I see that she has been conversing with him on her trip, especially if it is multiple times, my plan is as follows.

I am picking her up at the airport Monday night (Memorial Day - really late - kids will be in bed). I will put her bag in the backseat. There will be another bag in the trunk. I will drive her to an extended stay instead of home and tell her why. 

I will tell her that I've booked the efficiency for a week, and say I'm telling the kids she decided to stay an extra week on vacation. During that week, she will need to decide which life she wants. Affair or marriage. If affair, I will call all her family and friends and tell them the news. And then we'll talk with the kids, who so far, amazingly, don't suspect a thing.

If marriage, she can move back in, but I'll tell her trust is gone, no more outings with her friends until she earns it back. Constant updates on her schedule, complete kissing of my asss, and the next time she makes contact even once or lies in any way I will divorce her immediately and tell every family member and friend she knows exactly what she did.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Would you tolerate a single call to the OM? Answer: no calls, if one call is made take her to the hotel, tell your children and family, file for divorce, stop lowering the boundaries. She then has a finite window to commit to the marriage and every aspect of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> I am checking the Sprint phone records. If I see that she has been conversing with him on her trip, especially if it is multiple times, my plan is as follows.


If that is how you caught it the first time and she knows you are checking, you are spinning your wheels. If there is further communication, it will be through a different channel.

Here's a few I've been through.

She called him once on my cell phone. I was checking my cell records and home records with the false sense of security she wasn't talking to him. She bought a prepaid phone.

Finally, she gave up the prepaid phone and promised no contact. That was fine for awhile until a VAR caught a conversation. It was supposedly on the home phone where he called her. There had been a call to him on the home phone where he would have the number. She also showed me how to erase a particular caller ID, lending credibility to the theory. Again, a promise of no contact.

I found a way to track the home phone. Again, a false sense of security in that there were no conversations with him. Until it caught a conversation on another phone. Hence, the proof of Affair Phone # 2. 

My point is that she will find a way to call him if she wants to. Checking the things that she knows that you know about are pointless. She will likely not use something you know about already.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

She doesn't know I am checking phone records. Her email has been totally clean because that is how I caught her. She may be thinking ahead and using another method but SO FAR, I believe she has actually heeded the NC. Some wayward spouses actually heed it, I'm told. But the point you make is valid. If she wants to bad enough, she'll break it somehow. Maybe I catch it maybe I don't.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> She may be thinking ahead and using another method but SO FAR, I believe she has actually heeded the NC. Some wayward spouses actually heed it, I'm told.


I hope you are right. It was the talking about how she needed "closure" that sounded waaaaay too familiar. Yes, some do. I hope your wife is one of them.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

QUESTION:

Wife and I have exchanged a few texts while apart. One of hers read, "we did XXX, YYY, ZZZ, now relaxing by the pool. Must do lots of thinking this week".

From there we exchanged a couple of texts, one where I reiterated that she has two choices, and that I hope she picks the one to work on the marriage, but I said it was ultimately her call. She said, "I know the road ahead of me." I took this to mean that she knows what she has to think about. 

I have checked the call logs and no calls with the OM thus far 1.5 days into the trip.

My question is this: Given that she is clearly in the fog still (though she says she is thinking clearly), I am tempted to lay out all the ramifications if she decides it is too hard to break off ties permanently with the OM. Meaning, listing for her the ramifications:

1) losing a husband of 15 years completely rededicated to a renewed marriage with more passion and need-meeting than ever before
2) the devastation of our kids
3) that everyone will know (right now we each have a small circle of friends that know everything) the full details
4) the financial burden, the separate homes, etc, etc, 
5) the fact that OM relationships have a 3-5% survival rate

I mean, somewhere she knows all of this (I know she's thought about some of these things over the years), but it just makes no sense to make all of those things happen just so she can continue a relationship with the OM. She even said if we didn't make it she would take a year to just be alone - that she might date the OM later on, but not for quite some time to clear her head.

Should I list all of this and tell her what she would be giving up? Or is this going into the begging/pleading that I have to avoid? Having trouble with that distinction. 

Right before she left we kind of agreed to try really hard for 6 months the right way, and if we couldn't rekindle what we had in the past we would walk away. And she might still be on that plan in her head. But her deep thinking while gone might change that. 

Anyway, any thoughts/opinions on my question about listing the ramifications would be really appreciated.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

I believe that would fall into the "Don't reason" part of the 180. I've tried reasoning. It certainly didn't work in my case. She knows the ramifications. I don't think there is any reason to reiterate them. That's just my opinion.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

I wouldn't go into the litany of consequences. At this point, it will mean nothing.

I did want to point something out, though:



Gabriel said:


> I mean, somewhere she knows all of this (I know she's thought about some of these things over the years), but it just makes no sense to make all of those things happen just so she can continue a relationship with the OM. She even said if we didn't make it she would take a year to just be alone -* that she might date the OM later on,* but not for quite some time to clear her head.


Warning, Will Robinson! Danger! Danger!

She is already entertaining the notion of a romantic relationship with the OM at some undefined point in the future. And is *telling you about it*!! On the heels of asking for permission to break NC. Right now, it sounds like - despite lip service being paid to workin on the marriage - her head and heart are still firmly with the OM. I hate to say it, but your uphill climb just got steeper.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I understand she might do this. And frankly, I want to flat out ask her when she gets back to see what she says. But should I? I might glean some info but it also might cause a sh*tstorm and set me back when it comes to showing her I am strong and capable of moving on without her. What do you think? Ask or don't ask? Try to catch her on the down low, or keep tabs with her openly?


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Grayson, she said that to me on DDay. Not just now. I asked her when I confronted her. I asked, "So, do you want to go be with him now?". She said, "If I leave you it won't be to be with him. Who knows maybe down the road we would date or something, but I would need to do this to be alone for a good year and get myself right before jumping into anything with him, or anyone."

Does that still ring as dangerous to you? You kind of took that out of context and jumped.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Sounded like it was something she'd said in a more recent conversation, the way I read it.

In light of her definitely recent request to break NC, it's something I wouldn't dismiss, at the very least. For my money, a cheating spouse, when discovered and confronted, who says, "If we split up, I MIGHT date the OM/OW." is saying, "Given half a chance, I'd be with the OM/OW." In that moment, the marriage is at a crisis point, your wife was basically being given a choice between you and the OM, and instead of definitively choosing you, she said, "I'll give it a shot with you, but if it doesn't work out, I've always got the OM."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Grayson, your last quote is right on the money. Given she's asked me to meet her needs probably 30 times (prior to the EA) and I failed 30 times to consistently meet them, she has doubts I can do it this time. I can't blame her for that really. She has to decide if she is going to give me one last chance or not. 

The most heartbreaking part of this is that I have finally armed myself with the proper tools to meet her needs and am 100% confident I will now. Question is, will I get the chance. She's afraid I'm saying this only because someone else could do that for her. 

What she only 1/2 understands is I meet some of her needs, and the OM meets others. She leaves me, and she won't have my financial support, a family life, etc. And so that's what she is weighing. "Do I give it one more go and risk him failing yet again and cut off ties to the OM forever? Or did I really give him all the chances he should have needed and therefore I am done."

Only she can decide this. Her being on this trip until Monday night is f*cking killing me, because we can't talk, I can't fully demonstrate Plan A, and the risk of her rekindling with the OM has increased.

I just want to fast forward to Monday night so we can talk and connect.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Is that possible? Yes, but barely. Given that this was an EA and not a PA, I'd say that helps my cause somewhat. Also, she has 5 girlfriends with her, 3 of which I've known for years. One of them in particular would cave and say something, I think. She is a big fan of me as her husband.


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## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

> Her being on this trip until Monday night is f*cking killing me, because we can't talk, I can't fully demonstrate Plan A, and the risk of her rekindling with the OM has increased.


It's a hard thing to deal with, when they go away on trips. My husband has always gone away regularly for 3-4 days at a time, and has continued to do so since his affair. I check phone logs when he is away but I realise he can easily circumvent that (eg. have a secret phone/email, use a pay phone etc.). 

In the end I just have to trust that he is behaving himself. I mainly have to rely on the way he treats me when gets home, and my gut instinct - which is usually right.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Squiffy, you sound like you are in virtually the same boat as me. All the best of luck to you. I hope we both can survive this and have healthy marriages. I 100% agree with what you are saying too. 

She has another trip in mid-June with a different group (all married people, it's a trip I'm much less worried about). Then the following weekend, right after that, she and I are going on a 4 day trip together, alone. Then right after that to pick up our kids from their visit with my parents.

I am praying we make it to our trip together. Because that trip may tip the scales for us in the right direction.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Update:

Wife is halfway through her trip. I am doing better every day and feeling stronger and stronger. Phone records are clear, but I know that doesn't mean much. But it helps. And we have been texting, sexting, etc, these last couple of days, to the point we are dying for Monday night when I pick her up at the airport so we can hit the sheets. Or the back seat. 

I have been demonstrating strength. Been to the gym twice in 3 days, awesome workouts, and telling her about them. I've lost 8 pounds (from 189 to 181, it's noticeably tighter around the middle). I'm 6'2". Sent her a pic and she got jacked up. Telling her the kids are doing well. Painted our family room. Fixed our toilet and drain. Manning up. Seems to be working so far. It's all I can do. It works or it doesn't. The goal it to make the NC as easy as possible, not by begging, but by being an attractive man, so she knows what she is missing if she talks to the OM again.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Update:
> 
> Wife is halfway through her trip. I am doing better every day and feeling stronger and stronger. Phone records are clear, but I know that doesn't mean much. But it helps. And we have been texting, sexting, etc, these last couple of days, to the point we are dying for Monday night when I pick her up at the airport so we can hit the sheets. Or the back seat.
> 
> I have been demonstrating strength. Been to the gym twice in 3 days, awesome workouts, and telling her about them. I've lost 8 pounds (from 189 to 181, it's noticeably tighter around the middle). I'm 6'2". Sent her a pic and she got jacked up. Telling her the kids are doing well. Painted our family room. Fixed our toilet and drain. Manning up. Seems to be working so far. It's all I can do. It works or it doesn't. The goal it to make the NC as easy as possible, not by begging, but by being an attractive man, so she knows what she is missing if she talks to the OM again.


Awesome!!!! :smthumbup:


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Gabriel, I hope that no news is good news.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Well here is where things stand. We are talking all the time, some moments are golden, others tense. I went onto her phone to see if they by chance were still texting/talking, found nothing, but she did keep their last "goodbye" text exchange from awhile ago.

She sent him a text that said "everything she needed to say to close the door", and he responded. I shouldn't have read them, because I took some steps back, even though the texting done awhile back now.

Her text was tough to read, for sure, but his response was 10X harder to read. The OM basically said that he didn't believe it was the last time they would talk, and that the strength of their love for each other "should not be buried or ignored". He said that "if you need me to step away and say goodbye so you can protect your family, that's what I will do. You wanting to protect your family makes me love you even more."

I mean, how sick is that, right? This is the same OM that told me that his biggest concern about what they had done was my family falling apart. Okay, but your love shouldn't be ignored and you think you'll talk again? This guy, who I once considered a friend, used to come by and hang out and stay way too long, like that SNL skit "The Man Who Would Never Leave". Even my wife would joke about it. I feel this even more now, like he says he'll do what she asks, but at the same time is hanging around like a f*cking leech, lurking, never letting go. He also said, "I will love you as long as my heart beats."

Anyway, it really roiled my anger stage. So my wife and I were having a rational talk yesterday and I explained to her what I would do if we couldn't work this out (she doesn't know I saw these texts). I told her my plan for staying healthy, going to a support group, and eventually meeting women. She was totally thrown by it, and JEALOUS. It really bothered her that I had a plan. I thought, "Good, be bothered." I did reassure her that I would rather our marriage work. But it planted a very important seed I think. If she is trying to R out of worry for me, I am letting her out. If she thinks I'll stay no matter what she does, my plan clearly tells her I won't. I think that had a good effect.

As long as she doesn't contact him again, I'm confident we will work things out. But if she does, it's over. Very clear.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

My initial reaction:

He's playing her like a violin. Everything in that text pushes all the right buttons to all but guarantee they will resume contact at some point. And, maybe even more importanly, SHE KEPT THOSE TEXTS. That's how she's currently getting her fix...rereading those texts, and taking comfort in the knowledge that their "true love" will never die. No wonder she asked for your permission to break NC. Not to sound too cynical, bu sounds like she was checking to see if the proverbial storm had blown over enough for her to dive back in to the EA under the flimsy cover of "getting closure." I said it earlier in the thread, and I'll say it again: screw "closure."

My secondary reaction:

Were these texts exchanged after the (supposed) NC phone call? If so, if it were me, I would certainly let her know you're aware that she's already broken NC. At that point, I'd have to decide what consequences are called for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Those text message are like a promise ring from him to her, get rid of them. Until they are gone she is mentally still in the affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

It's funny, she said she didn't think she could live with me snooping around, spying on her all the time. She said, "I am 100% confident I have closed things off with *****". She thinks that should be enough, and if I'm snooping around, I don't believe her, and maybe our marriage won't make it.

I told her I wouldn't snoop around, but I am. I'm doing it less often. I did tell her that she should remove him from her contacts list on her phone. She said she would, but that hasn't happened yet, I don't think.

Again, the path is clear. I catch her talking to him, she's out.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

What she sees as "snooping," in this kind of situation, is called "verifying.". You are matching her deeds to her words. In many (most?) reconciliation scenarios, transparency is key in rebuilding the trust that was destroyed by the EA. The cheating spouse wants the betrayed spouse to take them at their word that contact has ended and they are abiding by the conditions you've set for reconciliation. However, the lies and cover-ups of the EA have devalued their word, making it practically worthless. They've ruined their trust "credit," and no longer qualify for you to "loan" them trust. They have to rebuild their "credit rating" by meeting their trust obligations. If she's got nothing to hide, transparency shouldn't be a problem. As you've discovered, she DOES have something to hide: saved texts espousing their true, undying love and the inevitability that they will resume contact someday (at least as put forth by the OM).

In our situation, my expectations have been made clear: I may, at any time, spot-check my wife's text history and/or call history and compare it to our phone bill, with or without her knowledge. If anything is missing, there will he consequences. She informs me if she is about to delete a text thread, call history, etc, at which point I have the option of checking it before she does. At the same time, I make a point of thanking her for abiding by these guidelines, which ar necessary to rebuild my trust in her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

findingmyway - thanks - you were the OM twice? My God man.

Despite my thinking that's a big flaw in your character, I very much appreciate the insight. 

We had an awesome date night last night - went to dinner, drinking, concert, hotel overnight, sex, etc. It was fantastic.

But I am not so dumb or enamored that I 100% trust her. She wants this to work out, and is putting forth a ton of effort, and she said she is 100% sure she put this to bed. But I will still periodically check the phone records. Her email has been clean since DDay - and since that's how I found out I know that even if she broke NC it wouldn't be that way.

I can't live my life constantly checking, but I will occasionally to make sure I'm still getting return on my investment in repairing this.

What's weird is that she leaves her phone out all the time (she always has been careless about keeping her phone near her - even before this). There's no password on it. That's how I saw the last goodbye texts on there. If she starts being more anal about her phone being near her, that will be a red flag.


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