# foresight



## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

So this is my new home........ 

For those of you who I am already aquainted with, thank you for your continued support. For eveyone else, I look foward to your input.

I would like to start this thread in the spirit of optimism. 
No-one can predict the future, and there is no future living in the past. But we can use our past as a tool with which to shape our future.

So this is how I got here:

Met the love of my life in high school.
Married 7 years later. 
Over the next 6 years our 3 perfect children.
Until very recently we had EVERYTHING. The whole 2 cars in the garage and white picket fence thing.
1-2-10 after months of suspect behaviors, my wifes phone register finally calls here bluff.
The next 3 weeks I spend bailing and fixing leaks while she just stands back watching and wondering when might be a good time to tell me shes pregnant with his kid.

How did this happen? We went from being the benchmark to nothing, overnight, for ? 
Was our marriage perfect? of course not. Were our problems big enough to "justify" this. Not in a million years. 

So today I remove my thoughts from our failed marriage and refocus them on what lies ahead. I am buying into the wisdom of many around here, and for the first time in my life I will concentrtate on myself. 

My wife removed me from her list of responsibilities a long time ago. Now it is time for me to do the same.

I dedicate my struggle to my children, for without them I surely would not be here. I hope someday I will be able to pass them the lessons I have learned in a way that they may not make the same mistakes.


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## metoo (Dec 9, 2009)

I am so sorry for the troubles you are facing at this time. I really can't imagine how difficult this time is for you and your children. I believe you need to focus on yourself and your children at this point. Your wife has made decisions in which you can't take the responsibility in helping her deal with. It just hurts so much in knowing that you can't change the past. Live for a better future, that all any of us can do. I have been married for 29 years, and now separated for 5 months. It does get easier I can tell you that much. If you look closely at your marriage you will see the cracks more clearly and then know you are ready for a much better future. Keep posting and let us all know how your doing. 
My prayers are with you!
Sharon


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

The hard part for me to swallow is being so oblivious to the affair in its early stages, when I know I could have stopped it. Why is it so hard to approach your spouse and say 'we have a problem' before it is too late. Even if I couldnt have stopped it, I deserved the chance..........


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Hyndsight,

Welcome to the forum. Besides focusing on you and the kids and re-prioritizing your life, I think you should meditate on the fact that her cheating on you and getting pregnant by another man has nothing to do with you.

Or actually, I guess that's something to meditate on.

I am assuming you weren't physically neglectful, it sounds like you provided well and were around for your kids and her most of the time, even if you have to work, striking that difficult balance between work and family.

The reasons I find for cheating come down to the 7 Deadly Sins. I am not much for worship but I find those do explain a lot of behavior.

She could have done it out of lust, anger, gluttony (men are often guilty of this one - they have an adequate amount of sex at home, have a great wife, but just want more), sloth (like you note - didn't want to confront a problem), greed. . .the point is, you shouldn't obsess about what you could have done to prevent it. That's one of the more insidious consequences of affairs/cheating - it leaves the other partner in a constant state of self-improvement and self-analysis when it has nothing to do with them (often. . .I am not saying that there's never a reason for cheating but its not correct to accept entire blame). Just accept she did very wrong and move on.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Looking for oppinions on this one; so far our boys, (6 and 7 years old) only know that mommy and daddy have to take time apart to 'think', and thats why she has been spending nights with her mother, (their Nana). Today W asks if it is OK if she brings the kids to OM house for dinner. (they know who he is, but only that he is a 'friend'). How should I handle this?


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Hynd,

How would that make you feel? Start there. You need to set your boundaries with your w on this now. Don't worry if "she gets mad" You need to be true to yourself to begin with or you will resent her even more. When doing this be firm/assertive and gentle. Done without anger. Be confident in yourself.

Personally I believe her request to be totally inapproriate. This is a trying time on your children whether she realizes it or not. Keep your focus on what is right for them -- and continually show them and tell them you love them.


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## Notaclue (Jan 1, 2010)

hyndsight1 said:


> Looking for oppinions on this one; so far our boys, (6 and 7 years old) only know that mommy and daddy have to take time apart to 'think', and thats why she has been spending nights with her mother, (their Nana). Today W asks if it is OK if she brings the kids to OM house for dinner. (they know who he is, but only that he is a 'friend'). How should I handle this?


No way, no how. They shouldn't be involved with this person and shouldn't be allowed to be in the middle of this mess right now.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

My thoughts exactly, thanks for the affirmation. I fumed about this all afternoon and when I came home to confront her I basically said "How do you think they will feel when they find out the truth? betrayed? lied to? She said she would respect my point of view but dissagreed. Said they should 'get to know him first'. Just what they need; to be around them on their 'honeymoon'. FA: this firm, assertive, and gentle thing is ROUGH. I try to hide my feelings of resent and to date have not blown up at her, but find myself just doint the 'silent treatment' just to keep in control.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Hynd, it is a start. Remember the old saying "if you've nothing good to say, don't say anything at all". It takes time. Believe me I know.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

guess thats sort of what I have been telling myself: instant gratification in letting her know how I REALY feel, but probably not so productive in the long run.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Hynd: Know that whatever you say, it won't matter much to her. This is not me being ugly but the truth as it stands now.

Firm and assertive is a way to show that you are in control even when you don't feel like you are....

I agree with the other posters that the kids should have little if any contact with the OM. Unfortunately, she may still do what she wants as she has done thus far.


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## Notaclue (Jan 1, 2010)

Hynd, I know what you mean. Better to stay cold and detached then to let her get you visibly upset. You need to stay straight and true for you children and show them a perfect example of a good father. 

Eventually the truth will come out and they will see what their mother has done. They will figure it on their own soon enough when their half brother/sister arrives.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

CW, thats actually exactly what I told her earlier: 'you have been getting your way for a long time now. I dont care if you still lie to me but I draw the line when it comes to our children. If think they are prepared to know the truth now then so be it, but dont decieve them'.

Notaclue, her reply was 'they're going to have to know before I start 'showing'

They/we are not ready for them to know yet. I dread the day


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Sue for divorce and child support from her on grounds of abandonment. 

The biological father may not matter in terms of future child support if you are still her husband at the time of birth.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

I'll admit I know nothing about the legal aspects yet, but after today that is my top priority. She has been a SAHM for 8 years, so suing probably wouldnt do much. I think Maine is a no fault state but not sure what the implications are. I have already told her that if she continues the pregnancy that we will divorce before she delivers.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

So much for being in control. Puting the kids to bed and they happened to mention that they were at OMs house LAST night, untill 11, watching a movie. On a school night! Of course I was told by W they all stayed at her mothers, nothing more. Firm? Assertive? Gentle? Without anger? How? How do I take controll?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh this is easy. If she wants to have the affair, let her (you can't stop her). The kids stay with you in the home and she moves out. She can visit them. Period. You are their parent even more equally than she right now, because she is not thinking clearly. 

Now, I realize this means tons more work on you: arranging for child care, fixing their lunches and meals, getting them where they need to go, etc. but you are their FATHER and their mother has temporarily flown the coop and is not acting in their best interests. 

It is NOT in their best interests to be torn from their father. 

It is NOT in their best interests to be removed from their home (for her horniness). 

It is NOT in their best interest to be exposed to the OM. 

It is NOT in their best interest to be up until 11pm on a school night. 

It is NOT in their best interest to have the parenting decisions of their father ignored. 

Mom is acting selfishly, hormonally, and without regard to putting THEM ahead of HER OWN SELFISH DESIRES. The fact that you can put them ahead of yourself is more than adequate proof that they need to be with you. 

Hynd, you need to make this happen, and it's not a option--it's a requirement.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Ooooops! Sorry I'm not done yet because I'm steamed now. I'll do my best to be objective but to be honest...it's hard. :cussing:

Okay first here is a quote about custody in the state of Maine: 



> What standard does the court use to determine how to assign parental rights and responsibilities?
> 
> The court must determine what is in the "best interests of the child." There are many factors that help the court determine the best interests of the child. Some of the more important ones include:
> 
> ...


Maine Divorce Law Blog: Fathers' Rights
I will leave you to draw your own conclusions. 

I believe the time has come for two things. #1--I know your children are young but they are not stupid and they know something is up. Since your wife is determined to introduce them to OM and try to teach them that what she's doing is okay (even acceptable), I believe the time has come to sit down with your children and have a talk with them. It should start like this: "Guys, I know you are smart kids and I love you very much, so I'm sure you know that something is happening between your mom and I. I found out a little while ago that your mom has a boyfriend while she's still married to me, and I have to admit, at first I was pretty mad at her because moms and dads are supposed to love each other, not have boyfriends or girlfriends. Your mom's boyfriend is "OM" and I know you know him, but he is not just friends with your mom. They are going to have a baby together. I've been trying to talk to your mom and work it out so we stay a family but it's not going well, and I just KNEW you guys would have questions...maybe things you're a little afraid to ask. Shoot I was afraid to come talk to you! But I love you and I tell the truth to people I love, so I had to tell you. Do you have anything you want to ask me?" 

See how that is factual, not judgmental or pointing blame, but also not letting the kids think it's okay to have a boyfriend or okay with you that they are with the other man? See how it teaches the kids through your actions that even when it's hard you tell the truth to people you love? Keep it on you and how you feel and maybe even some things you did wrong that contributed to this... but hey the fact she has a boyfriend is just TRUE. The fact she's having a baby is just TRUE. If she gets mad, tough! Her actions are what's wrong here, not telling the kids the truth. 

#2-- I believe it's time for her to move out. This thing with her coming to the house while you go to work is baloney. Time she start experiencing exactly what it will be like when the other man meets her needs 100% and she gets none met from you...and what it's like to lose her children at least half the time if not more. I have a newsflash for her--she's not gonna be a "taken care of" stay at home mommy anymore. She will have to provide for herself and the children (who stay with you because you are the stable parent right now) and the baby on the way. Let OM put up with her hormonal pregnancy b.s.!! She will be instructed by the courts to obtain at least a minimum wage job in order to contribute to providing for her children. I believe she needs to have a bit of a slap of reality and a wake up call...so I'd say give her to this weekend to end the affair with OM or get out and not with the kids.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thank you Affaircare! No offense, but this is the first post of yours that I have been in complete agreement with! So what would you do? Our 'temporary' arrangement was; she comes home @ 6am so I could go to work and she could get the boys off to school. Then she spends the day with 18m old D, picks boys up from school, waits for me to get home @ 5pm, then leaves for the night. The only request I agreed to is that once or twice a week she would bring them overnight with her to her parents house where she (claimed) to be staying. I thought this was a reasnoble arrangement untill we felt able to make a more permanent plan. Now what? Should I keep them from her unless I am there too? Can I do this legally? For how long? One of her girlfriends recently did this same thing to her H and somehow managed to turn the kids against there father so that today he only sees them a handfull of times a year. She has made a point to remind me of that already. How do I do this with enough force to do right for my kids, but with enough diplomacy that I dont inflict unnecesary conflict?


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Hang on, gotta read your next post now. How do you people type so fast?


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks again Affiarcare. (now theres 2 posts!) I agree with ALL you are saying. My issue right now is timing. kids are sleeping/have school tomorrow, she will be here in the morning. I realize the urgency here, but would it not make sense to do this tomorrow after school so we have the weekend together to reasure? Also, I realize that W is digging her own hole here, but do you think it would be better to include her in breaking it to them so they can see that we are still united in their support? I dont want them to feel like I am the one 'taking' them from their mother


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

HYnd, get a lawyer ASAP. Start a journal documenting her actions times, dates, etc. You want a record so it isn't just your "memory" of events. I agree with most of what Affaircare said, but not the part about talking about husband and wife and what the OM is to her. Just that the two of you are having issues -- and they need to be in bed like normal, etc. 

She obviously broke the agreement you had about the kids being at her mothers with her. Let her know this is unacceptable. She has all the time to be with OM without taking them. Simply put disgusting.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

actually left a message with a lawyer today, didnt get back to me. That is priority tomorrow as is canceling bank accounts. So how do I prove the documentation, or do I have to? her word against mine?


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Hynd, having a written record by you is important. IN reality I would make journal entries kind of like this:

Memo to file:

ON such and such date x happened. I know this because because , blah, blah ,blah and sign it. 

It helps believe me -- you aren't going well i think this happened on such and such date -- you have a record. Yes I have a legal background.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks for the tips,I'll start there. Do you do divorce law.....in Maine?


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

No, i did transactional law -- real estate, mergers and acquisitions, the evil structure finance (you know the stuff that "melted down the banks" -- the stuff Obama and Paul Volcker hated CBOs, derviatives, off balance sheet stuff). But I can tell you documentation is taken seriously -- even in she said he said situations. Because you aren't relying on memory -- you recorded it down as factual. And that is all you do -- facts, no emotion.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Im onto it, thanks for the advice


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

#1--talking to the kids was an example. if you want to leave out what she is to OM that's cool beans. Keep it on "moms and dads love each other and don't have other boyfriends or girlfriends" and "even when it's hard or scary I tell the truth to people I love". They'll get the message. 

#2--I personally got one of those Daytimer daily appointment books with lines for each hour, and if something occurred that showed irresponsibility (like breaking a promise, not showing on schedule, not paying a support payment, things that might harm or scare the kids, etc.) I just wrote it on the calendar at that moment. Then I submitted the whole calendar as evidence. 

Regarding the timing of when to do thing, Hynd you are there and know all the details and I do not. You don't seem utterly unreasonable so I will encourage you to use your best judgment about "when" but also encourage you to be assertive on behalf of your children. 

It may be that you'll need to take a few days off to get things like child care straightened out. I would not allow her to be your daily child care in your home, nor would I allow her to take them out of the home. Possibly a nanny or au pair would be cool...or speak to work and see if you can telecommute after 3pm or come in earlier so you can leave work to pick them up or take lunch at pick them up time, drop them safely at home with the nanny, and then return to work... You are a wise, brave, strong, smart man--and I have every confidence you can figure this out. Given the sitch I would think offering every other weekend visitation with wife at her parents--you drop them off in the am Saturday and pick them up in the pm Sunday at the grandfolks' house--is reasonable.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks again; heres the update, (our conversation thismorning)

her- Ive decided to terminate the pregnancy

me-?

her- things arent going to work out with OM

me- not my concern, my concern is with the kids right now, and what you did the other night was unacceptable.

her-I know, I felt bad, Im sorry

me-good, as long as we have a mutual understanding with the kids, things will be much easier

her- I know you dont want me here but I feel I have a right to my home. If you cant live with me maybe you should think about moving out.

me-realy? dont you feel like you gave up that right a long time ago?

her-my lawyer said if I wanted I could have the house, the kids, everything.

Looks like shes gotten her reality check.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

LOL Oh I love her--seriously :lol: Do you hear the "Disloyal Dizziness" in her statements or is it just me? 



hyndsight1 said:


> her- Ive decided to terminate the pregnancy
> me-?
> her- things arent going to work out with OM


NO! Really? Couldn't see that one coming. You mean the man who is more than willing to seduce a married woman away from her devoted husband and tear her away from her children...isn't a man of character and was looking for a quick fling and not a lifetime commitment to a woman with three children? HUH....



> her- I know you don't want me here but I feel I have a right to my home. If you cant live with me maybe you should think about moving out.


How about NO!? You are the stable one honoring your vows and family. You are the one who is being faithful. You have the income to pay the bills. Nope, you aren't going ANYWHERE. *She* is the one willing to leave everything for OM. *She* is the one who is leaving her family and children...and the home where she ought to be. 
NO-NO-NO-NO-NO. If anyone is moving out, it's her. You have earned the right to the house and the kids, and her actions have indicated she cares about nothing and no one but herself. I suspect she knows darn well she has made some REALLY bad choices and now she's trying to hedge her bets. She figures she *has to* divorce you now, so she might as well try to get everything. My thought would be to continue to be civil, polite, kind, etc. but nope--allow her to experience the consequence of her choices. 

(FYI--this is why my Dear Hubby and I so much encourage every person to try to save their marriage if at all possible. The fact of the matter is that even if you take the high road and you were the loyal spouse...divorce leads to a ripple of damage and destruction you can not imagine. Even if you are moral and ethical, you WILL lose things that are very precious to you. So yeah--she will learn QUICKLY to never be unfaithful again if she's allowed to experience the consequence of losing her children and home over it.)



> her-my lawyer said if I wanted I could have the house, the kids, everything.


NOPE! If her lawyer told her that, the lawyer was lying. In reality, best case scenario the house will probably be sold "short sale" and all equity lost. In case she missed it, the economy is bad for house sales right now--and if she chooses to move forward with divorce, you two go entirely separate ways and you're not responsible for her anymore. If she's been a SAHM, you may have to pay for 2 or 3 years for the time it would take her to go to college, get an AA and get a job...but after that she'd be on her own. And yep you'd have to contribute to supporting your children, but since they would be "homebase" with you and visiting her, it probably wouldn't be too much. I'm sorry but this is nothing but "Disloyal Dizziness" and not related to reality in the least! 

My guess would be that the OM is dumping her, and she thinks she's messed up so bad now that there is no way she can do anything but ditch the marriage. So still in her fogspeak she's trying to work it like she envisioned it--she gets your house, kids and money and the OM in your place, and you just accept that and disappear with no fight. :rofl: :rofl:


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

I feel your pain. Document all of the inappropriate behavior. I have been doing so for 4 months. My W filed a restraining order based on lies but still got me out of the house for 3 weeks until a judge overturned it. She filed for divorce in Oct 09 and I found out about the affair shortly thereafter. 

In the beginning she HAD the house - now I live in it. She WANTED 100% custody, now it's 50/50 and I am bound and determined to get primary custody due to her outrageous behavior with the OM involving our children. Taking kids to the OMs house is bad, but try moving the OM INTO our house. Yeah, it's bad but I have my mind set on protecting our kids and doing what's right for them. Bring it!

Hang in there an PM me if you need to vent!!!!


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Affaircare, thanks again for the encouraging words. 




> (FYI--this is why my Dear Hubby and I so much encourage every person to try to save their marriage if at all possible. The fact of the matter is that even if you take the high road and you were the loyal spouse...divorce leads to a ripple of damage and destruction you can not imagine. Even if you are moral and ethical, you WILL lose things that are very precious to you.


This is what I have had so much trouble with over the past few weeks, but as you can tell, I dont have much to work with! 

Help239, wow, I sympathize, and pray that things do not get this out of hand. Good to see you have realy turned things around.


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

Yes, much to her surprise. I am well represented legally and that has made all of the difference. I was literally ONE day away from giving her all she wanted because I originally didn't take any legal action to protect my rights. In this state the petition becomes a court order in 30 days if it isn't responded to. I am SO glad I obtained legal support in time.

Keep posting and you will learn from everyone's experiences. I sympathize with you and wish you the best.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

So heres the update; W comes home this morning and basically asks 'where we stand'. I say that, based on the last few days I am considering arranging child care and coming up with a more defined visitation agreement. She takes this as "you are trying to pay me back". Then I make it very clear that my actions are in the interest of the kids and if I did want to "get her back", the last thing a responsible parent would do is involve the children. (like, putting them in this position in the first place!) While wer'e on the subject of responsibility, I bring up 'movie night' again, and she still doesn't get it. She admits that she would have handled it differently, but still does not consider it wrong. So I end it by saying "I do not want to take our childrens mother from them, but the only way we can do this 50/50 is if 1) My decisions will trump when it comes to kids/OM 2) There will be NO turning kids against either parent. Her coment is "All I can tell you is that it realy sucks to be a father going through divorce in the state of Maine". Huh...you don't scare me... This is the first time we have talked since yesterday morning and needless to say, boundries are pretty vague right now. (AC, believe me, I'm NOT ignoring your advice), and Help, sorry for using you for an example here, but I am treading a VERY thin line; I realize what it might come to, but I am trying realy hard to avoid the bitter legal battle and the damage that would cause. At the same time I can't sit back and let her be in control and do as she pleases. As I was leaving, W did come over and put her arm around me and say "We are both the best mom and dad and I know we can make this work for them" (We? I'm thinking). 
My other concern right now is feeling unprepared for the legal stuff. I have an appointment with a lawyer monday (lol: after going to jury selection!!!!:rofl and should have finances 'secured' by tuesday. Hope I'm still ahead of her. (She did confess that her appointment with a lawyer was tuesday, so I think she was bluffing before) Ahhhhhhh....it goes like this for a while and then it gets worse......


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## Notaclue (Jan 1, 2010)

Sorry to hear what she is doing Hyndsight, but you are doing the right things. I think the documentation thing is the right idea. I can tell you that in FL, a no fault state, that the judges still look at adultery and decide many times to award the custody on things like that. Sometimes the mother ends up paying child support if she is the cheater. 

I don't know anything about Maine, but I think in your case with all that has happened you have a pretty strong arguement. Just a random thought, but I think you may also want to hire a PI to take some Pics if it starts to get ugly.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks Notaclue,
I only know that Maine too is a 'no fault state', lots of questions for the lawyer on monday. I would like to think that after this morning she realizes how strongly I feel about her doing anything with kids/OM and this won't be an issue again, but I'll keep an eye out.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Document EVERYTHING. And shop laywers like crazy! This is your kids' future involved.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Yeah note to self: Lawyers are not in it to do "the right thing" or even necessarily to do the best thing for their client--they are in it for the billable hours. So remember, that like a doctor, YOU are in charge of the lawyer and direct them what you want them to do--not the other way around. Let the lawyer advise you, and then you tell the lawyer how you want it handled. Make sense? Any time you say prime goal is protect my rights and kids, secondary goal is be fair and then they won't listen and do the cut-throat or incur an argument to get more billable hours...cut them loose. 

By the way, I was just wondering where your wife is getting the fundage to go to a lawyer and file all these legal fees? I'm assuming she has her own job and is working to pay for her spending family money to break up the family...right?  If she wants/expects you to pay for her lawyer, let a judge tell you that. Until then, I would say "Work for your own money because mine isn't paying for you to divorce me and leave my kids." 

I know...I know. I'm such a meanie! lol  For your info, here's a comprehensive guide to divorce in Maine. Maine does have "no-fault" but I also see that grounds can be declared. I say if she is determined to go through with this, that you be sure the grounds of adultery are on the divorce papers. Also, I see that Maine, like most states, strongly encourages the spouses to reach a settlement on property and debt issues before making a judge decide for you. If this is what you decide to do, you may want to draw up an actually fair settlement offer for custody, child support, property, and debt...and have your lawyer give it to her lawyer. "Fair" in this instance means: Custody is joint parental decision-making, kids "homebase" with you and she sees them every Wed. and every other weekend; Child Support (just use the calculator and plug in real numbers and offer that); Property is selling the house and each getting your own townhome or apartment as you're able, and just agreeing on dividing "things" (assuming kids stay with you); and debt would be listing HER debt which she keeps, YOUR debt which you keep, and BOTH debt which is split down the middle. If she has been a SAHM I'd say don't offer spousal support but maybe offer to take her college debt that she would incur to go to school and get a degree so she can get a J.O.B. llike the rest of us.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

:rofl::rofl: I almost asked her the same thing today!!!

OK, since you brought it up I've gotta make a confession.
If you were to ask my wife the one thing she would have changed about me, it would be that I work too much. OK, I'll take the blame for that, but given a few reasons, I dont think it is totally unjustified.
First of all, she knew from day 1 that I was a driven, motivated, hard worker. In fact, I can remember the day I asked her out I confessed that I was working out of town temporarily and we wouldn't be able to see much of each other for a while. (see how I swept her off her feet!) On average now I work about 50 hours a week, but keep in mind that the minute I punch out, my time is entirly devoted to family, (oh yea, another textbook 'nice guy' over here). She has always been a 'live for the moment' type, while I am realistic, looking to the future. So due to my efforts, (not discounting hers as a mother at all) we are, (were) in a pretty good place. No debt other than 1/3 value of a NICE house, (I built the house, so most of the equity is sweat equity), 3 cars, 2 boats, motorcycles, blah blah blah (not bragging, just reporting). She lives a charmed life; before we married she worked as a CNA but since has only had a few part time jobs that never once contributed to the family bank account (her money). Did these issues bring us here? probably contributed.......BUT I am pretty sure the affair would have happened any way.
So where is her fundage? I dont think even she knows. Maybe she will get a rude awakening when she realizes she has no access to our accounts anymore. I do know that about a month ago she was offered her old job (CNA) back and made no effort to take it. I think she has some growing up to do...........
Ok, weak moment, I feel better now.

I hear you about the lawyer thing, just need some questions answered ASAP, then do some more research on them. 

The custody thing I fear is going to be the most difficult part; I honestly don't want to take their mother from them, she is a great mom, albeit a little shortsighted. I'm not sure what she was thinking bringing them to OM so soon. Maybe this is just a commonly accepted scenario and dad is expected to bow out, or I guess some guys like the new freedom in their lives? I dont get it. Alot of the custody thing will be dependant on her choices over the next few weeks. Child care is also a HUGE issue. I simply couldn't afford it long term and we realy don't have many available people to help us out.

Thanks again for the research AC! very helpful


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

My question is "do you want her back?"

Is there a way you are willing to have her come back? I.e. abortion, drop the other guy, marriage counseling, apologize etc. Some sort of check list of criteria she understands she has to keep to in order to return as a clear option.

Or are you just done and heading to divorce court no matter how much she wants to return?


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Good question; first time I've heard it from someone other than myself. 
I know people 'forgive', but I cant even begin to at this point, in time? I don't know.
The abortion issue is huge to me; I have always believed there may be a place for an abortion, (incest and rape), but this is not it. This child is their responsibility, and if they can't raise it she should consider adoption. (other implications involving affects to our kids/her pregnancy?????).
Knowing her 'motivation' and my criteria for return, I find it very difficult to believe that she would be able to hold up her end of the bargain. 
Looking at the situation realistically, I would give it 99% failure no matter how much effort I put in. Is that 1% worth months, possibly years of our lives striving for something that might not work? Is that 1% worth a shot? for our kids? life is short........


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## bestplayer (Jan 23, 2010)

hyndsight1 said:


> Looking for oppinions on this one; so far our boys, (6 and 7 years old) only know that mommy and daddy have to take time apart to 'think', and thats why she has been spending nights with her mother, (their Nana). Today W asks if it is OK if she brings the kids to OM house for dinner. (they know who he is, but only that he is a 'friend'). How should I handle this?


can't believe she had the courage to ask this ? I am sure she has convinced u that whatever happened it was ur fault as well . I think u r still being a nice guy and she is trying to benifit as much as she can from u. If u want to get over this , just kick her out of ur life completely .

Best of luck


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

hyndsight1 said:


> Looking at the situation realistically, I would give it 99% failure no matter how much effort I put in. Is that 1% worth months, possibly years of our lives striving for something that might not work? Is that 1% worth a shot? for our kids? life is short........


Well if she's basically crossed the uncrossable line, then just plow ahead with the divorce and play that out as best you can. I'd use the board here for moral support, but use actual lawyers for actual advice in the legal battle ahead.

If my wife ever became pregnant to someone else, I believe I would end it instantly as well. So I certainly don't disagree with that. It's disappointing that she was so stupid. It's one thing to have an affair... I understand the temptations there, but she getting pregnant was just frakking stupid. I'm not sure I'd be divorcing for the affair itself, but I just personally couldn't stay married to such a dumbass.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I haven't read everything on p3 yet but I'm seeing some very misleading and damaging advice/ideas here.

You cannot control what she does with the kids, period. If you get divorced and she has 50/50 custody, what they do when with her is up to her. Absent some true negligence or physical endangerment, the court will NOT care about anything she does. The court does NOT judge morality. 

Think long and hard about this. You get divorced, you lose the ability to control what she does with them--completely. 

2nd, everything you say to them about their mother's affair is "splitting" them--that means, it will leave them feeling they need to "choose sides," and that is what damages kids in divorce. Read the research. You should say nothing judgmental about her relationship with the OM. Refer all questions about it back to her. Your actions now, by NOT splitting them, will demonstrate to them, down the road, that YOU are the better person. If they see her affair, and then see how you used it to sway them against their mother (and that's what it is, b/c it cannot be justified as "the truth" since it is a partial truth, that does not focus on the breakdown of the marriage and your mutual roles in it) they may well end up forgiving their mother and angry at you. Bitterness in the name of honesty is very hurtful to your children. Please, take heed. Most people do not understand this. They think, why should I "protect" my cheating spouse from the consequences of her actions? You are not: you are protecting the kids from those consequences until they are old enough to figure it out on their own and make their own judgments. Your actions--forgiving her and taking her back, or getting divorced--will tell the kids a lot about you--and either choice will show them you are a good, multi-faceted person who acted in their best interest. 

All you need to say is that h&w sometimes have problems they cannot work out and that leads to divorce. When people get divorced, they may have new bfs or gfs. If they want to know what the "problems" are, you need to let them know these are adult problems that children cannot solve (because that's why they want to know, so they can offer solutions, sweet kids!) and you are o.k. with the divorce. You love them and NOTHING they did caused the problems in the marriage; you will always be their dad and part of their life; and they will be safe and secure. These last three things should be repeated in various ways over and over again. They will need lots of reassurance. Your anger and bitterness--and desire for revenge, which is why you want the kids to know it is "her" fault--will only hurt them. 

I've done a lot of research on this issue and you will find I am right. The advice to tell them anything about what mommy did is dead wrong and hurts the kids. Any attempt you make to justify doing so will simply be rationalizing a reason to pursue your real goal: getting the kids to blame mommy. That is so bad for them. They'll figure it out when they are older--that she cheated--and be more able to handle it. Don't force on them something that should NOT come from you and that they are NOT ready to handle.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Atholk said, 



> but I just personally couldn't stay married to such a dumbass.


Now that's funny. sorry, this is a serious issue but the comment really cuts to the heart of the matter in such a great way.


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

I agree with sisters359 110%. Please take this advice. Please.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Atholk said:


> If my wife ever became pregnant to someone else, I believe I would end it instantly as well. So I certainly don't disagree with that. It's disappointing that she was so stupid. It's one thing to have an affair... I understand the temptations there, but she getting pregnant was just frakking stupid. I'm not sure I'd be divorcing for the affair itself, but I just personally couldn't stay married to such a dumbass.


If I were to speculate on this a year ago, these would be my exact sentiments.

bestplayer, you are exactly right and I know I am still being a NG, and although I am strugling to ignore that right now and focus on what is 'right', I strangly still feel bad for her. I know that the feeling would not be mutual if the tables were turned, so wtf? 
whatever, 'feeling bad' for her is an easy one to get over, the kids are the primary concern in this whole mess. my/our 'happiness' will come in time regardless, but their immediate wellfare depends upon some very crucial decisions in the upcomming days.

sisters, very insightful, I am weighing the odds very carefully at this point. If you do get the chance to read p3 you will get a pretty good idea of where I stand. I have contemplated deeply on 'saving the marriage' for the very reason that I would be giving up 50% of my 'say', but honestly I think that I could be a much better father to them 50% of the time, then if my life were consumed with 'making my marriage work' 100% of the time. At this point I think divorce is the lesser of two evils. I also agree whole heartedly with you on the 'splitting' issue. Ive mentioned this before, but my situation is strikingly similar to what a good friend of hers did 4 years ago, and the W ended up brainwashing kids into thinking their father was evil. Personally I would never say 'bad' things to them about their mother. I agree with lots of love and reassurance, and letting them figure it out when they are ready. 


> All you need to say is that h&w sometimes have problems they cannot work out and that leads to divorce. When people get divorced, they may have new bfs or gfs. If they want to know what the "problems" are, you need to let them know these are adult problems that children cannot solve


This is basically where we stand right now with them, (without D or bfs yet). Diplomacy is realy important right now; if I try to 'kick her out completely' she would soon realize that the kids are her biggest bargaining chip, and a this point I have no idea how far she would be willing to go. Thanks for the feedback everyone, it realy helps.


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## bestplayer (Jan 23, 2010)

sisters359 said:


> I haven't read everything on p3 yet but I'm seeing some very misleading and damaging advice/ideas here.
> 
> You cannot control what she does with the kids, period. If you get divorced and she has 50/50 custody, what they do when with her is up to her. Absent some true negligence or physical endangerment, the court will NOT care about anything she does. The court does NOT judge morality.
> 
> ...


great advice sisters359 ,

except I couldn't understand when u said " * and that's what it is, b/c it cannot be justified as "the truth" since it is a partial truth, that does not focus on the breakdown of the marriage and your mutual roles in it * 

breakdown of OP's marriage was only because his wife has done something disasterous where do u see the mutual role of OP in this ? I think in this case OP's only role was that he trusted his wife.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sisters, I've done a lot of research on it too, and I can tell you that if you don't tell your children that cheating is wrong and 'it's wrong for mommy to have a boyfriend when she's married to me,' THEY will go on to either cheat or be cheated on. You show them you are the good person by not accepting cheating. They can be told it's wrong and still be shown that you love their mommy. And they will learn that, if anything happens to the family, it was because mommy cheated, not because there were 'problems.'

Plus, if it does come to pass that she leaves you for OM, the children knowing he helped break up their family will keep him from becoming entrenched in their lives, which only reinforces a warped sense of morality for them growing up.

Children learn the truth. They accept the truth. It's when we lie to them that they grow insecure and make things worse.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

I _think_ what sisters was saying here is that affairs usually happen as the result of a serious fault in the marriage, (which then would be the 'truth'). In my case I'll admit my faults and argue that this was no more than a 'grass is greener' situation, and I bet if you caught my W on an 'honest' moment, she would say the same, she was just curious.

Anyway, as a follow up to my last post:

In regards to my Ws friends situation let me clarify that the father was NO deadbeat dad. He would do anything for his kids, and although the courts granted 50/50 custody, there was nothing he could do to be with them on the weekends after she had her way with them all week. They were literally brainwashed. So although I whole heartedly agree with you sisters on the "splitting" issue, how do I protect myself from this?

turnera, I see the wisdom here too, I just think it is all a matter of timing. I think kids can only digest so much at any given time, and the actual morality of the situation is one that has to be introduced gradually, but firmly.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

sisters359 said:


> Atholk said,
> 
> 
> 
> Now that's funny. sorry, this is a serious issue but the comment really cuts to the heart of the matter in such a great way.


Thanks


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

sisters359 I could not disagree with you more. It is not his job to judge her or try to make the kids pick sides--but it is DEFINITELY a father's job to teach morality to his children, and by telling them "sometimes h&w just can't work it out" effectively teaches children that it is okay to do immoral actions that disregard your marriage vows. It also teaches children that if a h&w run into a situation where one behaves immortally that it is okay to just leave rather than address the problem. 

Nope I highly disagree!

Children need to know that dad loves mom and is dedicated to her and only her, and will not leave her, but what she did is not what mom's and dad's do. They need to be taught that they should stand by their vows even when it's hard. They need to be taught that even when it's scary or hurts you tell the truth to people you love (you don't lie and then try to leave). They need to be taught that it is okay to do the wrong thing, admit is was wrong, and be forgiven. 

Right now it is being demonstrated to them that mom's and dad's have boyfriends and girlfriends--that if you like the boyfriend more you leave dad "to be happy"--that if dad is hurt by that he's the bad guy--that if mom has a boyfriend she can lie about it. No these are all VERY WRONG MESSAGES. Further, they are children and will not have the courage to come talk to their dad about things that are scaring them--things are CLEARLY wrong in the household between their parents and no one is talking to them!

Thus, I strong believe that hynd would be wise to speak to his children--not to attack his wife or her decisions but to speak the truth in love. Speak to them at their level and focus on answering their questions, honestly and not covering it up. By saying "sometimes h&w can't work it out" that just leaves children confused and with no moral compass. 

Please note that I am not encouraging that he stir bitterness or address his adult emotions with children. That WOULD be harmful to them. Nope! I'm saying "Mom had a boyfriend. As you know, when people marry they are supposed to love each other. Since she had a boyfriend, it hurt me a lot and that's the trouble we're having. Now, I married your mom and I love her and intend to honor my promise to her, but this is a hard thing and I'm not sure how it will work out." Telling the truth is never a bad thing, and here it is -- the truth is that she had an affair, got pregnant, hurt her husband and hurt her children. Further, she could have a chance at fixing it all and returning to her "charmed life" if she admitted she was wrong and spoke the truth to her children and asked forgiveness of her husband and tried to work on herself. Instead she's too proud to admit her mistake and the cost is going to be her charmed life, her family and everything valuable to her. 

Saying "sometimes h&w can't work it out" does not aim toward the goal of giving every possibility to save the marriage....telling the truth in love does.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

hyndsight1 said:


> I _think_ what sisters was saying here is that affairs usually happen as the result of a serious fault in the marriage, (which then would be the 'truth'). In my case I'll admit my faults and argue that this was no more than a 'grass is greener' situation, and I bet if you caught my W on an 'honest' moment, she would say the same, she was just curious.


Okay as I hold others to this standard, it's the same standard I hold myself to. As you may or may not know hynd, I had an emotional affair. I sort of (possibly) understand your wife's point of view in that it's not so much that you think to yourself "Oh hey--I think I'll have an affair today." It's that there are increasing Love Extinguishers at home (like angry words, being disrespected, being closed down/shut out, etc.) and decreasing Love Kindlers (like doing fun things together, sitting and talking deeply, being romantic, silly love notes, etc.). At the exact same time, some person at work, school or online comes along and is interested ...and a little interesting. The new person gradually does more and more kindlers and since you don't live with them, they don't ever do any extinguishers and there is this fantasy that "s/he REALLY knows me and accepts me--they are my perfect match." Pretty much every affair is that way: a combo of Extinguishers at home, Kindlers by the new person, and unrealistic fantasy. And think about it--if someone who knows all about it like me can slip and be imperfect, how much moreso someone who has never even heard of love kindlers and all that? 

You said yourself you work 50 hours a week. This in an of itself is not a "fault" but one of those things that makes the marriage (and your wife) vulnerable. Then I bet there were a few times of arguing, saying a hurtful thing here or there, maybe fewer compliments...that kind of thing. Those are not the loyal spouse being "at fault" for the affair but rather the situations that make the disloyal one vulnerable (and the loyal one too, to be honest). 



> In regards to my Ws friends situation let me clarify that the father was NO deadbeat dad. He would do anything for his kids, and although the courts granted 50/50 custody, there was nothing he could do to be with them on the weekends after she had her way with them all week. They were literally brainwashed. So although I whole heartedly agree with you sisters on the "splitting" issue, how do I protect myself from this?


Hynd honestly this is easy. The kids had no one telling them that affairs are wrong, or that H&W stay together when the going gets tough, or that you tell the truth when it's hard to admit it. Do you think it's easy for someone like me to admit that even *I* fell into an emotional affair? HECK NO! I'm ashamed! But my kids know their dad wasn't the issue and that sometimes you can do something really wrong, admit you were wrong, and be forgiven! In the case of the "non-deadbeat-dad" did he tell his kids that sometimes h&w couldn't work it out? Cuz I'll bet you $1million that while he was telling his kids something like that, his kids were getting the message that it's okay to leave your obligations for "happiness", that it's okay to lie to people you love, that it was not okay for him to want to protect his family from her actions, that he was wrong for wanting to stop her from "being happy" and messages like that--either out loud or by actions. See, kids do learn by our words but they also learn a LOT by our ACTIONS! 

This is why no matter what I encourage you to do the right thing. Be honest but loving. Be open to your kids and demonstrate commitment. Behave in a way that is fair. And do all this whether she does or not!


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

> the truth is that she had an affair, got pregnant, hurt her husband and hurt her children. Further, she could have a chance at fixing it all and returning to her "charmed life" if she admitted she was wrong and spoke the truth to her children and asked forgiveness of her husband and tried to work on herself. Instead she's too proud to admit her mistake and the cost is going to be her charmed life, her family and everything valuable to her


couldn't have said it better myself..........



> such a dumbass.


 (still chuckling to myself)

OK, play nice guys! seems like some strong oppinions around here, and I value them all highly. What it boils down to in the immediate future is what she decides to do. I wish I could tell you which way she was leaning, but I have no idea myself. She hasn't asked for the kids overnight again, so I think I made my point there. I won't push the issue untill I am more legaly prepared, and I would guess the 'lull' from her reflects the same........

here I am posting out of turn again.........


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Well put Affaircare, thanks...

turnera?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

LOL I know! Is it just me or do turnera and I seem to agree on most things? LOL :lol:


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

By the way, hynd, I get what you're saying about it being 99% no way and 1% maaaaaaaybe... and wondering if that 1% is worth it. Can I give a thought on that?

I'm not saying it would be an easy row to hoe, but I could see that 1% maybe being worth the effort, and here's why. If things really are over between your wife and OM, then she's likely to be hurting pretty much right now, missing him, feeling lonely, and withdrawing from the affair drug feeling. Once she is through some more withdrawal though, her wits will start to come back to her and she may be more like her old self (your wife) and less like the affair woman. Thus, your moves now should be like protecting you and the kids from harm but not necessarily aggressive. Know what I mean? You absolutely can not stop her from making any choice she makes--she is completely free to do so. But she is also free to experience the consequence of her choice. Further it is loving to allow her to experience the consequences because hopefully she'll learn faster! But for now, be more like "Mr. Defender" and give her a chance to go through withdrawal and get out of the "Disloyal Dizziness."

Once that happens, there may be some part of her that thinks "What in the WORLD have I done?" That would be your chance to be a real hero to her and to your children. If up to that point you've just protected yourself and the kids, you can say, "The life we had is still here. You made some mistakes but I did too. I meant it when I made my vows to you, and I'm not gonna say it would be easy, but I'm willing to do everything I can to repair this. Are you?" 

Yes, I realize that in this world often people are too proud to admit they made a mistake. Yes I realize that usually/often people would rather destroy their family then humbly say they were wrong. But...if she can get there and you can get to saying "this will be hard but I will work on it" (and mean it...for real), then that 1% just grew. 

So it may look sort of bleak right now, but that's why I use a lighthouse as a symbol. Sometimes the loyal spouse has to light the way back to the marriage while the disloyal one is out there in a bad storm.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> LOL I know! Is it just me or do turnera and I seem to agree on most things? LOL :lol:


 It's the background in psychology, I suppose. It IS a science, though some would dispute it. There really ARE causes and effects, and expected results. Human nature is human nature.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Believe me, I have played that out soooooo many times in my head, and I always end up with 2 problems: 1) I have not seen ONE honest tear from her to date. 2) We were both virgins when we met! I realize that it is perfeclty acceptable to have multiple partners in a lifetime, and even I personally would have no quams living in that world after divorce, but can you imagine how that would change our relationship? I can. (btw, our sex life was GREAT!)


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Not quite done,

Not just screwing someone on the side, but unprotected? And then comming home and without missing a beat jumping in the sack with me? she not only put both our LIVES in danger, but oppened up the possibility that our kids could have NO parents! and now she is going to have an abortion to save her marriage! Yea, Id'e consider that pretty bleak...........


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

OK, now I'm done, and I do believe that time will _change_ the way I feel, but tell me, honestly, is what she did realy forgivable?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That is unique to each individual. Only YOU know what you can handle. I've seen people deal with it, accept it, and work to improve the marriage. But she has to understand what she did and have remorse, or it will happen again. What do you think?


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

I think...... my head hurts......
Honestly? I think she doesn't realize the damage she has done. I think she feels it was just a mistake that she can't fix, and her ability to admit that much is enough to wipe the slate clean.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

You all are missing the point. If you try to teach morality by telling them their mom is a bad person, you crush them--they LOVE her. They TRUST her. She has been a good mom to THEM (assuming she has). 

You teach morality by what you do, not what you say. You either forgive and move forward, teaching forgiveness (which implies a sin to be forgiven, and they will figure it out), or you divorce, teaching that you do NOT accept infidelity under ANY circumstances. They will get that message loud and clear when they are old enough to understand it. Preach all you want about morality; all you really are doing is trying to make young children see it your way b/c you are angry at the other person and want revenge, to try to get the kids to side with you against their mother. And if you do, remember: they may grow up and disagree with you, and they may well resent YOU for turning them against a person they choose to forgive. That's their prerogative when they are adults. They will see you for the vengeful, bitter person you were and might still be. 

When kids get older, it will be time to talk to them about what happened. Teens can handle it IF it's not a current issue. 

And you don't lie to them. You tell the the truth that is age appropriate. That goes for everything you do with kids. They do not have the brain development to handle the issues and nuances raised by too much information, too soon. 

You are also kidding yourselves if you believe happily married people have affairs b/c they are tempted/curious. Your partner cheated b/c s/he wasn't getting something out of the marriage. She would not have been "curious" if she was truly fulfilled. The breakdown in the marriage is on BOTH parties. Absent true mental illness, no one can say they are "innocent" of ANY contribution to that breakdown. 

The cheating, however, is all on her. That's why he can insist she meet HIS terms for even thinking about working on the marriage (related to rebuilding trust). But if he agrees, then he has to accept his contributions and he has to root them out, even if it hurts, b/c otherwise, the same thing is likely to happen again.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

> And you don't lie to them. You tell the the truth that is age appropriate. That goes for everything you do with kids. They do not have the brain development to handle the issues and nuances raised by too much information, too soon.





> I just think it is all a matter of timing. I think kids can only digest so much at any given time, and the actual morality of the situation is one that has to be introduced gradually, but firmly.


No, we're not all missing the point.



> Your partner cheated b/c s/he wasn't getting something out of the marriage. She would not have been "curious" if she was truly fulfilled.





> Do you BRIDE'S NAME) take GROOM'S NAME to be your husband – to live together after God’s ordinance – in the holy estate of matrimony? Will you love him, comfort him, honor and keep him, in sickness and in health, for richer, for poorer, for better, for worse, in sadness and in joy, to cherish and continually bestow upon him your heart’s deepest devotion, forsaking all others, keep yourself only unto him as long as you both shall live?


just a little refresher on what a wedding vow means. I'll say again, I will take responsibility for my faults.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> You tell the the truth that is age appropriate.


Exactly. "Mommy should not have a boyfriend. I love her, but she can't have a boyfriend if we are married." Can't get more age appropriate than that.

What do kids learn if you lie to them? (and they WILL know you lied) 

They learn that it is ok to lie. Kids can handle disappointment. They can't handle parents lying to them.


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

Even though I have not addressed the OM with our kids, they know instinctively that their mother is lying and doing something wrong. I plan on telling them my position however I need to hold off in the short term due to legal issues surrounding child custody. They frown upon parents putting their spouses in a bad light - no matter what they are doing. I will "fill them in" once the court date is past and the divorce is final.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

OP, I wasn't addressing you. Sorry!! 

There is nothing appropriate about sharing their mother's sex life with young children no matter how you slice it, nor is sharing any degree of detail about problems within the marriage. 

Furthermore, that continues to cloud other important issues--mutual obligation to keep a marriage healthy. 

The OP does not deserve that his wife took this easy way out of marriage challenges. He may choose not to forgive her, and that's fine. 

If one partner insists on blaming the other, where does it go? To a horribly ugly exchange of "sins" that the children hear. The wife in this instance, may well retaliate by telling the kids WHY she found a boyfriend. Do you want the kids exposed to that? 

Be moralists and not parents, and see where it gets you. And p.s.: lots of people who cheat had faithful parents, and vice--versa. A pattern of good parenting will be a heck of a lot more important in the long run than one deviation from that pattern.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

sisters I think you may be confusing "blame" with stating the truth in love. There is a vast difference. 

Blame would sound like "YOUR MOTHER screwed another man and got herself pregnant, not to mention the possibility of sexual diseases! We were great before she did this awful thing and now she's getting what she deserves!" This is one spouse putting the responsibility for everything on the other spouse and sucking in the kids, trying to get them on their side. This very much so IS destructive and is not at all what we are encouraging--at least not me! 

I am encouraging the truth in love. The fact is that children are perceptive. I am positive they already know there is a major issue. At some point there are going to notice that mommy is pregnant (if she chooses to not have an abortion which is a whole other post). They need to have some idea of what is going on, explained to them in an age-appropriate honest way by their father. If they are told, "Mom had a boyfriend and mom's and dad's are supposed to love each other, so yeah it's caused some trouble, but we are working on it" then that is neither lying nor blaming. That is stating the truth. Further, it might be reasonable to say that both did some things wrong and they're working on doing a better job and fixing what they did wrong. 

You are right about one thing sisters--the children do get crushed--but it's not by the spouse who was loyal and spoke the truth. The children get crushed by the parent who had the affair and was willing to tear apart their family and their life so they could have the thrill of a lover. It is entirely unfair to say that the loyal spouse speaking the truth is what would crush the kids. 

Further you have another good point: "..they LOVE her. They TRUST her. She has been a good mom to THEM (assuming she has)." Not even arguing how good a mom is that would take her children to meet a lover while still married to their father...let's only focus on the feeding, child-rearing and care she has provided. You are right the children DO love her and trust her, and from a child-like perspective, if a parent does something it must be okay. They trust her to think of THEM ahead of herself. They trust her to do the right thing by them and show them how to behave. By not saying a single word, because they love and trust her, they will wonder if what she did was appropriate. 

I think this is one point where a lot of people lose their way. And look--as I said I've been in Hynd's wife's shoes enough to know that I don't blame her and that almost anyone could slip and have an affair. Shoot, I am positive that him working 50 hours left her lonely and vulnerable to someone who came along and swept her off her feet, spent time with her, complimented her, and she just felt so good that she fell for it. Nope this is not blame. This is just openness and honesty with children at a level they can understand.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

hyndsight1 said:


> Believe me, I have played that out soooooo many times in my head, and I always end up with 2 problems: 1) I have not seen ONE honest tear from her to date. 2) We were both virgins when we met! I realize that it is perfeclty acceptable to have multiple partners in a lifetime, and even I personally would have no quams living in that world after divorce, but can you imagine how that would change our relationship? I can. (btw, our sex life was GREAT!)
> 
> Not quite done,
> Not just screwing someone on the side, but unprotected? And then comming home and without missing a beat jumping in the sack with me? she not only put both our LIVES in danger, but oppened up the possibility that our kids could have NO parents! and now she is going to have an abortion to save her marriage! Yea, Id'e consider that pretty bleak...........


Hynd, may I specifically address these with you? I won't kid you, if you and your wife choose to really work at this and give it a go, I'm not suggesting that you would have it easy and not have some REALLY hard stuff in your life. There is no option that I know of that wouldn't be really difficult and absolutely test the metal of your character. The options would be 
a) She has an abortion which just screams NO! in your conscience. 
b) She offers the child for adoption. This means that your wife would have to willingly give up one of her children--and she is your wife and it is her child. 
c) She keeps the child and you raise another man's child as your own. This means that the child is INNOCENT and you love it for being your wife's little boy or little girl...and that it is never, EVER held over her head nor is the child ever used as a "weapon." 

See? None of those options is a small order and I'll be honest. The man who had the moral courage and character to do any of those is few and far between. But that doesn't mean it can't be done, and it surely doesn't mean that you couldn't make the choice to do it. 

When you make a marriage vow, you are basically saying that you make the choice to love that person even when they are not in the mood to receive the love. That you will love them because you choose to, not because they love you back. Well--you can do the same here. Choose to love your wife and her baby. It's not yours...yep that's true. And it is UTTERLY reasonable for you to be devastated that you two were virgins together and now she has taken that from you. The way this would work is that you choose to love her, and she chooses to love you and recognize that part of the cost of her mistake is helping you get through that devastation. Make sense?

And by the way--yeah I know she's not there yet. She's not shedding one tear because she honestly probably really hurting over missing the OM. The more her mind returns to her and the more she becomes the wife you knew, she will shed a tear though--just give her time to get there and sort of to know it's safe to go there and not get pounced on and blamed.


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

Affaircare - I hear ya but am still thinking that no matter how I communicate the "truth" to our little ones that if they are interviewed by a child mediator it will still come across as "Daddy doesn't like the OM and said Mommy is bad". They don't understand the personal violation here. They are not old enough.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

> The man who had the moral courage and character to do any of those is few and far between. But that doesn't mean it can't be done, and it surely doesn't mean that you couldn't make the choice to do it.


morality: the quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct

I wonder about 'moral courage' It sounds like what you are saying is that 'moraly' I should stand by my wedding vows no matter what she has done? I can't help but feel I would be dishonest to myself if I 'decided' to love her at this point. Would that be moral? (btw, reading on your site AC and the part about 'I decided to love you' realy hit home. Something so simply put could sum up so much about marriage....)

As far as W goes, I guess as you say, time will tell. I have been sticking to my theme of 'no hope' with her, knowing that her judgment will be affected if I give her any sign otherwise. I think that no matter where we might end up we have to start here unless she pulls off something incredible in the way of re-concilliation??? Her choices are 1) work it out w/OM 2) strike out on her own. If she did decide to go it alone it may be an indication that she is willing to deal with her mistakes....I guess this is the type of thing I need to see from her first before I can consider 'deciding to love' again. Its up to her now.....

Lawyer was predictable: $200 consult to basically confirm what I already knew and get the retainer fee pitch......


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I just don't think there is anyway for the one cheated on to explain this to children without conveying the message that it is "all" her fault.

I should have said, it is up to the guilty party to speak to the children about their own actions--just as it is up to the other partner to admit he made mistakes, too. When the mother is visibly pregnant, that may be the right time for her to address her actions (again, with only age-appropriate information). 

OP, as for forgiveness--you can forgive and learn to love her again, but the real question is, can you ever love her as a WIFE again? You may choose to love someone, but that does not mean you can love them as a spouse. I am a very loving person, but I could not love my ex as a husband. I treated him very lovingly but too much was missing for me to continue to cherish him as a husband. Love is universal, marital love is specific. 

You are holding out for some sign from her, and although that may be coming from somewhere selfish in you, it may also simply be a matter of, "I can't love her again as a wife if she is not willing to take responsibility for her own actions." If you can't respect her, you cannot really love her. That makes sense to me.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

> it is up to the guilty party to speak to the children about their own actions--just as it is up to the other partner to admit he made mistakes, too.


In theory, this might be the right answer, but it is completely reliant on the guilty party. She can't even own up to me, do I trust that she will to the kids?



> Love is universal, marital love is specific.


I'm getting there.....(hey, is that another way of saying "Love you, not in love with you!)


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You should NEVER allow the person in an affair to tell the kids. They will spin it into "spouse _made_ me do something wrong." The offended spouse can easily say "Mommy made a mistake by getting a boyfriend, but that is over and we are now going to be a happy family, just the (3, 4, 5, etc.) of us, because we both love you very much."

Facts only.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Alright, I need to hear your thoughts on "once a cheater always a cheater", and I don't have to be told about how its not always true, or its easy to say, or how only I know my wife. I guess I'm just looking for how this may or may not have applied to other people in similar circumstances. Success rates maybe?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think the only way a serial cheater will ever stop is if they hit rock bottom, like an alcoholic, and that will include understanding the severity of the damage they caused. If they never look outward from themselves, if they never realize humility, they'll do it again.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

hyndsight1 said:


> In theory, this might be the right answer, but it is completely reliant on the guilty party. She can't even own up to me, do I trust that she will to the kids?


You have hit the nail on the head. Considering that 9 times out of 10 the unfaithful person is the one who has hurt the kids and hurt their marriage, it's more likely the message they will give the kids is a message justifying why their behavior was acceptable. I *still* vote for "Mommy had a boyfriend and that hurt, because mommy's and daddy's are supposed to love only each other." Perfect chance to say that everyone makes mistakes--daddy made mistakes too--and that when you make a mistake the way to handle it is to tell the truth and say you're sorry. 



> I wonder about 'moral courage' It sounds like what you are saying is that 'morally' I should stand by my wedding vows no matter what she has done? I can't help but feel I would be dishonest to myself if I 'decided' to love her at this point. Would that be moral? (btw, reading on your site AC and the part about 'I decided to love you' realy hit home. Something so simply put could sum up so much about marriage....)


Hynd please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. It is not reasonable to be a doormat and let a person run roughshod all over you...while you just "decide to love them." And it is not my job to tell you what is moral or not, or what to do or not. Those are decisions that you make because you are there and involved and know all the facts, and I am just a person online on a forum!  However, I want to encourage you to stretch yourself--be the man you CAN be and the man who really goes to bat for his wife and his family. 

I think it would be understandable if you decided to let it end. In this instance you even have Biblical reason to divorce, right? And I have to honestly tell you, I'm not sure how many there are on this planet who could find it within themselves to forgive her and raise the child as his own. BUT that's not to say it can't be done. Further, just based on the way you write here and nothing else, I suspect you dearly love your wife and your family, and you're a man who MEANT his vows. If you did choose to let it end, I don't think anyone in their right mind would fault you, and yet you do have options if you want to take them. You can purpose in your heart to forgive, and decide to love her even though she doesn't "deserve" it. I didn't want you to think that it HAS to end or you just HAVE to sit back and inevitably go to divorce. There are other choices. 



> As far as W goes, I guess as you say, time will tell. I have been sticking to my theme of 'no hope' with her, knowing that her judgment will be affected if I give her any sign otherwise. I think that no matter where we might end up we have to start here unless she pulls off something incredible in the way of re-concilliation??? Her choices are 1) work it out w/OM 2) strike out on her own. If she did decide to go it alone it may be an indication that she is willing to deal with her mistakes....I guess this is the type of thing I need to see from her first before I can consider 'deciding to love' again. Its up to her now.....


May I give you a possible look into her head? Now bear in mind I am not saying she IS thinking this but rather that it might be like this. She started off a bit lonely in the marriage. She was home with kids all the time, no one was paying her compliments or attention...and she was a little vulnerable. (Note: wisdom here is to learn your own weaknesses and then protect your marriage by setting up boundaries that guard you from your own self) Anyway, along came OM and he spent time, he listened, he complimented her. No biggie--just enough for her to feel a little zing. Then she told him her problems and he didn't tell her she was unrealistic--he sympathized and offered comfort. Then he told her she was beautiful, and there was some spark between them. It was gradual and she's not the kind of person to do this! Slowly she crossed little lines again and again because this flirting gave her a little thrilling buzz (it is an amphetamine in the brain, actually). So she also gradual became addicted to that buzz. Then it became sexual and she was thinking more about getting the buzz then about who she was hurting to get it. 

THEN she got pregnant and the doodoo hit the oscillator. You found out and you were her rock. Affair partners rarely (if ever) are responsible, committed types because if they were, they wouldn't behave as if it's okay to act like this with a married person! But he had no interest or desire in becoming tied down to the commitment of a baby/child for a lifetime! So he dumped her, and she lost her addiction. Now she doesn't get the buzz and she's going through some withdrawals. (About this time you're wondering why she's not even sorry! It's because she has a hole in her from losing the buzz.) The more time goes by that she's not with the OM, the more her head will clear and the buzz will go away...and about that time she will most likely think "What have I done?" And like you she will most likely think there is no alternative now but divorce. 

I agree with you--she does have some fairly serious work to do to show you she is sorry, she is serious, and work on the marriage. No doubt. But again, I would like to point out to you that doesn't mean it can't be done. She may need some sort of clue from you that there IS the option to work on it...that you might be open to consider that if she did the work she has to do. Just as I've sort of planted the seed in your head that maybe there is a way to do this, she may need a little seed planted in hers that you might consider it as one of the many options.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

> But he had no interest or desire in becoming tied down to the commitment of a baby/child for a lifetime! So he dumped her, and she lost her addiction. Now she doesn't get the buzz and she's going through some withdrawals.


Update:
Apparently he wants the baby and is still trying to get her to move in with him. It seems like she has reduced contact with him (not completely) and it sounds like she is still leaning towards the abortion?????


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

All I can say is OY VEY! "rolleyes"


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Alright, I've been doing some digesting and have come up with my own 'profile' of the situation:

First of all what I am speculating about OM: He is a NG, (probably even worse than me), he sees 40 on the near horizon, he is lonely, depressed, feels like life is passing him by. Never been in a serious relationship/kids/house/family etc. Works for his father, lives in appartment (owned by his father).

My W is complete opposite, she has it all, BUT has a sexual curiosity due to the fact she has never 'been' with anyone else.

So here is a role reversal from the typical: HE is the driving force of the EA, wheras her primary motivation is the PA. At this point (and I am purely speculating) the pregnancy was an intentional way for the OM to 'seal the deal'. When she realized how serious his motives were, she began to despise him for it......she was just in it for the fling.

Pretty sure this is not far from the truth, not sure how it affects my situation though..........

once a cheater always a cheater?


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Hynde,

You are like me -- analyzing the situation to death. And you will never know anything for sure. Logic doesn't work here because you are dealing with emotions.

All analyzing did for me was confuse me even more. Step back and take stock of yourself. Get the focus on you and not her. I know it is hard, but that helps.

Oh sure I still analyze things but I don't let it overwhelm me like it used to do. 

So once a cheater always a cheater? I don't think we can make such generalities without knowing the specific person. Everyone is different. I think some people are more narcissistic than others, which can be the basis of serial cheating. But who knows really. 

The question really is -- can you forgive her? And only you know the answer to that one.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Why don't you go visit him and find out the truth?


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

turnera said:


> Why don't you go visit him and find out the truth?


Only if you think you can take him in a physical fight.

Not saying it's going to go down that way, but two males talking about a female they both are competing for sexually can regress to some of the more basic biological ass whooping programming.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

And lets face it. If she wanted to experiment with sex, there is always swinging and not cheating. Not saying I advise it, but "sleeping with other people" and "being a lying sack of ****" are two different issues. Maybe you could have dealt with one, but not the other.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

FA, 
Thanks for the leg up, I needed that. Analizing is exhausting and in this case more than likely counter-productive. Doesn't realy matter, whats done is done and I can't imagine even begining to forgive right now. What I need is something to get my mind off it and re-focused on.......me? not sure how to begin. 

turnera/Atholk,
I have tried to have a face to face with OM a few times in the past, but he wasn't at home/work when I dropped by. I did talk to him once on the phone, hoped he would meet me, (yup, ass whooping was in the program), but for some reason it was a 'realy bad time' for him...... Ya. Anyway, turns out he was actually _covering_ for W. If he wanted her to himself, why would he lie about sex when I asked him? seems like that would be a sure way to get me out of the picture. All I can guess is that he didn't want to get in trouble with her, (nice guy, huh). Most of what he said turned out to be lies anyway, so I guess they are a good match...........:smthumbup:


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

I saw this posted somewhere before....

The best revenge is to let the OM keep your wife.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Help, I believe that is a classic Sirch comment that was in his tag line -- but so fitting.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I am the queen of overanalyzing my relationship. I am burned out, at this point, and have no idea after over 1.5 years. 

As FA said...don't waste your time and energy focusing on her. She will do exactly what she feels like doing without thought of consequences. It's irrelavent as to "why?" It's a done deal...she's pregnant. 

She will need to figure out her life. You will need to figure out what you want out of yours. It sucks to be in this position.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

:iagree: thanks guys

Yea, saw that Sirch comment before too.....wonder if I can help patch things up between them.......


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Well, I guess I finally got the sign I was looking for. 
W asked to have the boys overnight again at inlaws; turns out they went out to dinner again w/OM first and I found out after. I read her the riot act and she agreed we tell them tomorrow. Said she is planning on moving in w/him now. 
It does sting, but on the other hand I feel like I have been in a car with no steering wheel. Now, whether good or bad, at least there is direction......


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I hope you're giving your lawyer all the background on her sacrificing her kids' welfare for her own pleasure. I hope you are going to fight for custody.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

I'm still documenting everything.

Custody is a tough one: 

Selfish as she is, W is a great mother, and this is what they need right now. Someday they will realize what she has done and see her for who she is. If we come to an amicable (50/50) agreement, she will be much less likely to leverage them to her benefit than if I pushed for something more. The ethics/morality is something I will have to keep working on with the kids over time, as is appropriate.

Bottom line is, I could not financially sustain long term full custody, but I will not settle for less than 50/50.

It sucks to have come to this, but I realy am between a rock and a hard place


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

I have been exactly where you are for 2 months now. Started with her asking for full physical custody in October and only wanting me to see the kids every other weekend. She tried her best to minimize my contribution as a father over the last 15 years. According to her letter to the mediator, I did nothing but provide a paycheck.

In November, I ended up with 50/50 custody per a temporary recommendation from the child mediator. This was due to the fact that we were still living together at the time and I was able to show that I was an equal partner in the marriage. 

I am going into to fight for majority custody in less than 2 weeks. Although my W was a great partner and mother for the majority of the marriage, her actions over the last 4 months are nothing short of unacceptable. 

She has put her own needs before our kids. She has been living with the OM for almost 2 months. When she has our children every other week in her 3 bedroom townhome she is subjecting them to his presence when they don't even know what's going on between us. She has left them alone for hours in the care of our 13 year old while she goes bar hopping. She allows the OM to transport our kids without the required car seat for our youngest. She doesn't allow them to communicate with me when they are with her. I ask them to call her to say goodnight when they are with me. She has given them the guilt trip when they ask about me and tells them they love me more .... geez.

This isn't about your W or mine for that matter. This is about our kids. What's best for them. What they need to feel safe and loved and to grow up normally. 

I'm a contractor in technology and will be able to care for our kids while their mother won't even look for a job. I will work 2 jobs if that means they will be safe and cared for. I will fight like hell to keep this house because it is all they know as home. When they come back they sleep - a lot. They welcome their familiar rooms and just being here. I guess the other "home" is not what they expected and they don't sleep well there.

Sorry for the rant.....they just called their mother to say goodnight and she made sure they knew she was going away with her "friend" for valentines day. She knows they would tell me because they are confused. She's still vindictive as all get out. She can go with him to the trailer park.....enjoy. Just stop putting our kids in the middle. Karma will catch up to her and she will see what she has done to this family in due time.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Don't be sorry Help, rant all you want. If your anything like me, it helps.

All I can do is hope that my wife will see the err of her ways sooner than later and at least be able to do what is best for the kids. If not, I guess I'm up for a fight.

So glad for you that you are able to stay in the family home. This I can imagine is very comforting to the kids. That is the only blessing to me at this point if my wife moves in w/OM; her living situation will not be nearly as desparate as if she had to find/pay for her own place, so I should be able to at least stall the sale of my house for a while. I wish I could just buy her out, but that would almost double my mortgage, and ontop of child support, not feasible.

I think karma will catch up to them years from now in the form of resentment from their own kids. When they are old enough they will realize what they could have had if it wern't for.........


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

I hear you. We are upside down on this house due to her stealing from our 2nd mortgage for her home business. We had agreed to a 3k limit on a credit card to help her rebuild her credit. Needless to say she went WAY overboard.

She thinks I can sell the house for 100k profit and wants her half - 50k. But that's a pipe dream. We are under water about 60k - I have 10 comps to prove it. So, no need to buy her out - half of nothing is nothing. Plus, since her credit is very bad, I'm sole proprietor on the title - it is mine. That is why she got desperate in Dec and filed the restraining order to get me kicked out of the house. The last 2 months have been nothing but delays and wasted attorneys fees and games from the W.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

We're actually in a pretty good place financially: I think even in this market we could be up 150k with no other debt, but my annual $ is low right now, (boats are not recesion proof!). So my only hope for keeping the house would be throwing her a real lowball offer. Short term with another job?, possible. Do I want to be slave to my home? not in the long run, but I could actually come out ahead if I played her/the market right.


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

Good luck. I'm on the other side. Was laid off in Dec in the midst of this divorce. So, collecting unemployment and raiding our savings that I had tucked away to pay taxes since I'm an independent contractor and will owe big time. It makes her wasting more of the money even more ridiculous.

The silver lining is when I do find my next gig being a contractor means I make my own hours so being there for my kids is not an issue.

No games here on my side. She has been reaching out and giving me the silent treatment when I don't fall for her games. My W will know exactly what I'm trying to accomplish when we see the mediator.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I need to say this again (not to you, OP). The court WILL NOT CARE that the mother is living with the OM or shopping or going to bars. None of that is illegal or even unusual. Nor is leaving kids with a 13 year old for hours. It's what people do. It WILL care if they are not being transported properly (car seats), but it would be very unlikely to pull custody from a mom w/out giving her a chance to remedy the situation. Those of you wanting to get custody b/c you are so sure your spouse has become a "bad" person, not fit to parent, everything you do to build such a case is both a waste of time and will create in you exactly the attitude towards your children's other parent that will be MOST damaging to them (absent endangerment, abuse, or neglect). 

Second, and perhaps most important, if you put this decision in the hands of the court and do not come to an agreement with your spouse, you give up any control over the final outcome--you will be giving up your chance to decide what is best for your children. The court will decide. That's one decision many parents are not willing to abdicate to a court. 

Remember that in most cases, a custody battle is NOT about physical safety, decent food, and a passable shelter. It's about one side trying to prove the other parent--who can provide those things--is "unfit," and nearly always that "unfit" is in the eyes of the parent who felt betrayed and who is basing the claim of "unfit" on the fact that their spouse betrayed them and, therefore, must somehow be deficient. The children whose parents AGREE on custody suffer a LOT less damage from divorce than those that get dragged through a custody battle. 

Try very hard to look at your spouse's actions through an objective observer's eyes and decide, do I feel my children's safety is at risk? Would an objective person think that the situation they will be in with their other parent is likely to do deep, irreparable harm--more harm than losing that parent would do? Do they stand to be more at risk from being exposed to that parent or more at risk from being torn from that parent (b/c that's how the kids will experience it if they are denied frequent and open access to one parent)? Remember, too, that it will not matter whose "fault" it is if your kids feel torn from a parent--it's the KIDS who suffer most, and to make your kids suffer and then say, well, that's her fault/his fault, is truly cruel, and will not make you feel any better when you see them suffer from losing access to the other parent--and if it does make you feel better, you are simply being vindictive and punishing your kids because you know it will hurt your spouse. Do you really want to be that person?


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

I am not a vindictive person. I do not interrogate our children. They express concerns to me that I take into account objectively. You have to understand the history here. When a parent puts their needs ahead of their children and puts them in danger - that is an issue with me. I do not go out of my way to search for fault in her actions. The kids tell me things that happen and concern them.

She had a car seat in her car. Did she not see the need to transfer the seat into the OM car? She would have had she remembered, but the fact is she placed a higher priority on being on time for girls night out than the safety of her child.

Taking them away from their mother is not my priority. Making sure they are safe and not exposed to bad behavior is. They text and call her all the time while they are with me. I can honestly say she has only ALLOWED them to contact me 2 or 3 times in 4 months to say goodnight when they are with her. Oh, and lets not forget the incident where she threw their new cells phones onto the driveway right in front of them.

Superbowl party? Cool. Wait, the crowd here is questionable. Kids have heard the F word about a dozen times and more than half the people here are smoking. Our little daughter is coughing and wants to leave. Her reaction? No big deal. They stayed for over an hour. Again, her good time and friends trump our kids well being.

I could go on and on but I won't. I want to be the person who looks back on this situation and can honestly say that he did everything possible to keep his kids safe and out of harms way. I want to be the parent who was there for his kids when they cried themselves to sleep when someone else yelled at them and sent them to their room because they were on the computer and didn't want to read them a bedtime story or say prayers. I want to be the responsible parent.

The court will care about the OM - I can be specific in a few weeks.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Sisters, point taken (again). I am obviously still in the very early stages of this, so by choosing my path carefully I HOPE to be able to avoid much of what Help is and has been going through, (sorry Help). The two situations that realy concern me are if _she_ starts to split the kids against me, and obviously if she does put the kids in harms way (which I almost certainly doubt she will). Beyond that you are certainly correct: I can not control how she raises our kids. My most effective means for controlling her parenting shortfalls will be to double up on my parenting strengths.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

So, my 'sources' just informed me that my mother in-law, (who told me earlier today that she felt soooo bad for what her daughter has done), has taken W and OM for an overnight gettaway at a local casino, on the eve of our 15th anniversary:smthumbup:........Kick in the gut, huh!!!!!!


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Well, theres V-day over with. 

Thank God for my kids! 

We went out this morning without a plan, just sort of spent the day driving around and having fun: Took them out on a frozen lake in the truck (realy cool!), watched toboggan races at a nearby ski hill, went to lunch, Mall Wart, etc., came home and jumped on the trampoline with them for the first time in months, (the snow finaly melted!). Good times.

Not that I didn't think of her, I did. I almost felt guilty having the kids as my distraction, knowing she was alone to reminisce our last 15 v-days. 

At the same time, I couldn't help but feel like this was a good experience for her. The kids called to say good night to her and couldn't stop talking about their day. Maybe this is the kind of thing she needs to jolt her back to reality. Maybe she will see now that the world still turns, with or without her. And it can be a happy place.

The worst part of the day for me was putting my 6 yo to bed and having him say 'I thought mommy was coming home so I could give her her valentine?'  

hang in there everyone, the sun will shine again....


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Hynd, yes that is what gets me -- my 7 yo. He will just say something out of no where like discussing where I will be living in a few months and he says "you can live with me and mom". Hard to think quickly at those times -- i just say no I can't.


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## harley2003 (Feb 8, 2010)

Hynd,

I have read your entire thread and am truly sorry you are here. Of course I am here for the same reasons as my W too has found her an OM. I pray and hope for the best for all of us.

I only wanted to drop you a quick note to tell you, when you start toward a divorce, sisters is right. I had a very very dear friend of mine go through a nasty one. My friend was nervous about the first court appearance and asked me if I would go to offer moral support. The judge in the case did not care one bit about the morality of either party. My friends W could have been sleeping with the Packers and he would not have cared.

I do remember one thing that really stuck out though. He looked at my friend and asked, "Do love your children?" My friend of course said he did with all his heart. The judge asked his stbx wife the same question, the answer was the same. So the judge says "Honestly I do not know you or your kids. I have no love for any of you. Why would you allow me to decide what is best for them?" A very wise judge got my friend and his x back to the mediatation table. You may not be that lucky. Anytime you go to court, you take a risk. You will be better off working it out even if sometimes you would like to reach across the table and strangle her.

Just my two cents. Good luck with whatever you do. Keep posting. It does help.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks Harley, 

As you can tell, I have had some very strong opinions in the matter posting on here!!! Right now I am sort of playing a waiting game; I think I have a pretty good idea of how things are going to play out on my end, but W obviously is dealing with much different issues. I hope we will end up in roughly the same place soon. When(if?) we do start to comunicate productivly again soon, my plan is to be as caring and diplomatic as possible. Try and pitch the whole issue in a way that she understands and knows that at heart I want what is best for her?, I, and most importantly the kids. With any luck she will realize the importance of our alliance in this matter, and we can avoid some of the things that others are going through. All rests on her willingness to compromise at this point.

FA, 

Just had another one of those moments last night, I know they will get worse. I am still waiting to tell my boys untill we have a better idea of what mom is doing. I wonder what it is like for our wifes to deal with these situations?


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

Mine started off feeling invincible and thought she was going to get everything. Kids 100%, house, money, and me kicked out. She lied to get her way. 4 months later she's not feeling so hot. I'm in the house, she's living with the OM and we split the kids 50/50 temporarily. 

In this county it's required to attend child mediation and they make a recommendation in the best interest of the children after meeting with both parents. The judge simply approves the recommendation 99.9% of the time. We go back in a week for the final recommendation since she's been delaying the divorce for months.

I have been keeping a log of all the behavior and questions the kids have been asking due to her actions. Time will tell if karma will pay a visit.....


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Wow. Having quite an evening.
W not thinking straight is an understatement, I think she has some sort of a dissorder. One minute she asks 'what would you say I told you I wasn't going to let you go?' The next shes ranting about her 'rights' and how shes realy been 'screwing herself' by not staying at home. Then, "I want to co-habitate......for the kids" (like that would be doing them a big favor) Then without missing a beat, "see ya later, I've got dinner plans". (big upside to co-habitation: she can be super mom all day while I pay the bills, then she can go play with her friends while I make supper/ put kids to bed, and she can still come home at the end of the night, (if she wants to!!!!)) Thats not even half of it. I'm not sure why I have waited this long, but I guess filing is the only way I can put an end to this......... If a reality check slapped her in the face, she would slap it back, and run away! How can I begin to reason with this........grrrrrrrr.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you are paying for her to do such things...STOP! 

Cancel the credit cards. Freeze the bank account. Cut off the internet and the cell phones; you can survive with a landline phone for awhile. Prepay the groceries at the grocery store. Be creative.


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

Exactly what my W went thru and still is to some extent. I feel for you - hang in there.

Be very careful about what you do or say in the near future. Restraining orders are "recommended" to some people as a way to get their spouse out of the house. All of a sudden these partners are "afraid" of their significant others.....yeah, right. Then they get to stay in the house, you cannot, and STILL pay for everything. She stole 3 weeks from me while we waited for a court date so I could present my side of the story. IN the end the order was thrown out but I still lost 3 weeks in the house with our kids.

I never thought my W would stoop to these measures but when all she wants is the OM and to take it all away from you, I guess it sort of makes sense ..... still ridiculous though.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Already done most of that. She still gets a small 'allowance' each week to pay for gas etc, (shes always running the kids around), but the next time I get her cell bill it won't be on me. All banking now in my name and I have been doing the grocerys etc. She wouldn't admit it but I think her lawyer had convinced her to retain him today and she went to out savings account to find....it wasn't there any more. I had already told her she didn't have acess to it but it was available through me. She had to try anyway. Now apparently she thinks I'm 'hoarding' it and I should write her a check for half. The way things are going there won't be much left after the divorce, so i'll be damed if she gets her half now.
Still find it strange that she hasn't fallen off the 'fence' yet. She seems resigned to 'us' being done, and even though still hanging around OM, not comitted. She realy doesn't know what she wants, just knows what she doesn't I guess.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

She is still seeing OM? Have you exposed this to her family and his family?


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

Oh, my W charged her attorney on a joint credit card. Oh, and she commited fraud by setting up auto pay of her cell phone on my account.....it will catch up to her. She also always says "my friends and family know about the OM". Sure they do, because you told them he's just a friend. But when the papers are final, I will tell them the truth. They already know - they aren't stupid.


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## harley2003 (Feb 8, 2010)

Hynd,

I am exactly where your W wants to be. My W still lives at home (until August). Let me tell you that co-habitation or whatever you call it, truly sucks. Every time she leaves you know where she's going and every time she comes home you know where she's been. It will truly kill you.

I agreed to it (what was I thinking) until August when our son leaves for college. The only difference is my W is not bouncing the emotions around. She is leaving and that is it. How she will make it once she moves out, I have no clue and at this point I do not care. My only hope is to not end up hating her to the point that it corrupts my own soul.

So, my point is, from my point of view, I would not recommend it. I wish I had never agreed to it.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Yup, pretty much both families know everything at this point. Actually my 'source' is Ws brother. He called me the other night to tell me how bad he felt and that he had seen signs in the past but not quite put 2+2 together. Needless to say, W and brother don't get along that well anymore, but I'm glad he steped up to show her how he felt.

Sucks about them credit cards Help, I guess if my W resorts to forgery, she could do the same, but at least what little I have right now is secure, and no plastic.

Harley, I can imagine how much that situation must bite. When she mentioned this last night I asked her if she was being honest with herself, "can you imagine the tension being in the same house everyday, and how that will rub off on the kids?". Her response: "the kids need their mom around", (this is right before she takes off for the evening remember). I have to leave the room now when I see her just sitting there texting. My mind doesn't rest untill I here the front door close and I can go back to being dad without the distractons of her.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So...you're cancelling the cell phone?


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

Yeah, the cell phone texting bugged the heck outta me. Her face was always in front of the phone 24/7 - at soccer games with the kids, at dinner, during Thanksgiving, at my birthday....it was just disrespectful to me and the kids.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's recommended at marriagebuilders that you work your butt off to be a great husband so you'll be the one she wants to 'choose,' but at the same time you should do everything in your power to make carrying on the affair next to impossible. In other words, drop the cell phone if that's how she connects to him; if she wants to keep doing it, let HER pay for it. And, calmly and politely state that you won't accept her sitting in YOUR living room, texting her affair partner - if she is going to carry on an affair, she will have to do it outside YOUR home. It's not your job to make it comfortable for her.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

yup, the phone is history, (it was the only thing in her name only, so thats easy). 

Sounds like my W Help, and if it wasn't the phone, it was FB!

turnera, my heart is just not in it anymore. I will always care for her as the mother of my children, but i'll be damed if I spend one more minute working my butt off for nothing.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No one would blame you for walking.


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

Yeah it must be something in the water. FB, texting.....my W even called him from our bedroom at night while I slept downstairs on the couch back in Nov.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Help, the stories I could tell.....On january the 1st when I walked into a conversation she was having with him, I checked her phone to find on new years eve they had made contact 27 times throughout the day. I was with her all day. She actually texted him 'call me' no more than ten minutes after we had..........

Nice777guy summed this up with a gun control analogy on another thread: 'guns dont kill people, and FB doesn't kill marriages'. Its all about weak people and accessibility.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Hyndsight, did you ever talk to this guy's family, and tell them what he did?


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

turnera, I did talk to his brother about 6 weeks ago and he confessed that his immediate family knew of the affair (how much I didn't ask). He went on to say that they didn't talk about it and were hoping it would blow over. (btw, OMs brother has kids with my Ws sister.....:scratchhead:You can imagine how awkward this is for him). At the time I didn't realize this was a PA, now it is probably irrelevant.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So...she's like cheating on you with family? Ick.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

yup. As seen on Jerry Springer.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Confusing times......

W went through with the abortion yesterday. Still don't know how to take this personaly. She miscarried our 3rd and I have never known anyone to have taken a miscarriage so badly. Now this. I guess the upside is one less thing our kids have to digest, but moraly, if there was ever a reason to outlaw abortion, this would be it. I can't justify it.........nor do I have to.

One of the few people I have confided in is my brother. We have always been very close, so understandably he and his family are devastated by all this. I have been leaving all the gory details out, because his honest non-biased opinions are important to me. Recently he became exasparated, so he contacted W directly and asked her, (among other things) 'isn't 15 years of marriage worth fighting for?' She simply directed the question back to me saying, 'you need to talk to your brother about that'. So I told him where I was. I told him that although I _knew_ she would come back if I asked her to, I couldn't help but feel it would be for all the wrong reasons. By letting this happen we would be dishonest to ourselfs, and each other.

So tonight as she was leaving she says to me 'what you told your brother was right. I would come back in a heartbeat'. So I asked her, 'why would you want to? What are you going to do different? what kind of quality will our marriage have now?" Her answer "for the kids, I wouldn't cheat again, things will never be the same, I've accepted that and theres nothing I can do about it". So I simply said "looks like you are trying to protect the 'life you have become accustomed to', with or without the marriage". Sorry, no deal. Call me selfish, but I need more. If she realy wants in, she has to prove to me that she would do it for me, and only for me. Then, and only then, will I step foward. I think she knows this, but she doesn't value what we have left as worth the effort..............can't realy blame her.


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

Good for you for standing up to her. I cannot say my W would come back. I would not ask her anyways as it's a decision she needs to make. Either way, as we both found out the hard way, it takes 2 to make the relationship work. Ironic that you are now the one who makes the call as to whether or not it will even have a chance.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

{{{hyndsight}}}

I hope you find someone, MUCH later down the road, who treats you like you deserve. There are SO many women out there just dying for a husband to cherish and who will cherish them. Best of luck.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thats just it Help; she_ hasn't_ 'decided' to come back, it's just the lesser of two evils. If she had it would be backed with serious _actions_. 

It is ironic I have the choice now. I envy those who don't. While most of me says 'just get it over with, its unevitable', a little part of me is saying, 'don't rush this, just give it time'. She certainly has surprised me before.........

turnera, thank you, I hope so too.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

hynd: Excellent boundary setting! Kuddos for you and I know it sucks...all of it!!

You are so dead on correct. Letting her back in because she's lonely/misguided/financially dependent solves absolutely nothing.

You will be miserable. She will be miserable. Someone will want out down the line. It may end up being you....

Let her do the work on herself. Then YOU can decide.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks for the encouragement CW,
I keep telling myself this, but I don't always believe it......at this point I have to remind myself who is the 'victim', but damn I can't get over feeling guilt for being the one to end this. 
I look around at so many on this site who pray to be in a situation like mine, just to be given the 'chance' to make it work. 
I look at my children and imagine the heartbreak I could save right now....
I look at my wife; We met when she was just 15 and I feel like I helped 'raise' her in a way. She has admits that she will be lost in the world. She has never had to do anything for herself, and I can't help but feel responsible. 
And at the end of the day I look at what our 'new' relationship would be like, and it looks miserable.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Hynd~

Could I make an observation? As you know I've stuck with your story from the beginning, and I have more "coach" thoughts and more "human being" thoughts and I'll share both okay?

The coach in me would say that "for the kids" is not a horrible starting point, and here's why. I tried to explain this to Noona and I don't think he heard what I was saying so I'll try again. When a person is disloyal they do not think clearly; it's out-of-character and not like them at all. Almost every disloyal does this and I call it disloyal dizziness. From what you describe your wife is VERY DEEP in the disloyal dizziness and in order to get out of it, she would need someone like a lighthouse to guide her out. She didn't get that dizzy overnight, and she won't come out of it overnight either...but it does sound like she might potentially be aware (for the moment) that she has obligations and responsibilities larger than "for her happiness." 

Now, that is not the loving ideal we want to GET TO--but it is a starting point that shows some potential. Some people get into the "I deserve to be happy" mode and never find their way out of that! Then they look to others to make them happy for the rest of their life and never find it. I can't honestly say that your wife is very far from this point, but in saying that she would come back for the kids, there is the hint of recognition that a) what she's doing is harmful to the kids and b) she had a duty to them that is above her "happiness." 

If you start from that point, of honoring her duty to her children even if her heart isn't "in it" yet--she's kind of doing the right thing. She's done the wrong thing and I think part of her knows it was wrong...but she keeps trying to cover the wrong with more wrong! Now she finally has had one thought of "doing the right thing" and that is an okay foundation to start building on. From there, she could come more and more and more out of that dizziness, back to her clear-headed self, and the love between you two could grow and grow. 

SOOOOO...the coach in me says that before you "end" the marriage and talk and act like it's over, I'd suggest patience. When you said you're vows you said until death parted you, and assuming you were married in your 20's and live to 80's that's 60 years! Soooo... don't rush. Make sure you're protected legally from any dizziness she might try to pull, but otherwise give her some time to come out of it. My GUESS after years of experience is that even if you left it alone it would die out on it's own. Look at your children and remember that you vowed to them--and vowed to her--and then put yourself into "sit tight and weather this storm" mode. 

Then your wife as the disloyal will have some work to do--as will you. She will need to end all communication with the other man. She will need to get through withdrawal from the affair. She will need to have it hit her fully in the face exactly what she's done and be embarrassed and mourn. And she will need to face herself and start doing the RIGHT thing even when it's hard. She'll have to face what she did to contribute to this mess and go to personal counseling for her issues. But hynd, you yourself mentioned that she's surprised you before. It is conceivable that she could do all that if she had the idea that she would be accepted after doing some of the work...know what I mean? 

And meanwhile, yes you were moreso the "victim" but you were not blameless. It would be wise for you to look to your own issues so you can be the man who won her heart and be the man you have the potential to be. You have a lot of love in you--a lot to offer. Why not offer all that as a gift to your wife and your children's mother if it is at all possible. 

So in summary--be patient right now, protect yourself (maybe a legal separation agreement), and give her the chance to do better...maybe keep options open for her. 

***********

Now the "human being" side of me. I have to say this and it sort of tears at me. If my Dear Hubby had an affair I'd be hurt. If he were to be the one carrying a child from someone else, it would be a pill to swallow but I could accept either an adoption or even the child. After all, the events surrounding conception may have been messy but the child is a child and a gift. But Ooooooooo I just personally would have a very hard time with someone who aborted. (That is a major example of covering wrong with *more* wrong.) I know, not everyone believes as I do--but rrrrrrrr I see that as killing an as-yet unborn and I don't know if I could be with someone who would kill. Honestly that would be a wrestle! Having another person's child=a bitter pill but possible. Killing the other person's child=WOW I don't know if I could do it. 

So I'm just letting you know that I get that--very much so. I have to admit, I really do not think I could do it. In that light I have to also admit I don't think there's anyone here (myself included) who'd offer one inkling of blame if you just said you could not do it.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Affaircare..........figured you thought I had become a lost cause!
So optimistic as always! (may I also mention that you are great at throwing a wrench into things when I feel like I am starting to gain focus!).

One of my issues all along is the feeling that I might be rushing things. Maybe that is just another one of my underlying faults. I have always tried to control my situation, and having direction and purpose helps ease my mind. These weeks of floundering have been hell, and at this point I honestly feel like I just have to pull it together and do something, right or wrong.....

I do get your 'coaching thoughts', and as in the past, they are not far from the truth here. I can imagine that she may come around and see the full extent of the damage she has caused. She is not there yet; even though she has thrown out there her wilingness to give it a go, but as far as I can tell she is still kidding herself. I'm not sure if she is trying to remove the blame from herself, or is she being sincere? She has admitted that 'loosing me' had a profound affect on her, but if I were her and I thought there was ANY hope at all, (and I wanted it), wouldn't I re-direct my entire focus on that hope? Last night (again) I stressed the need for us to have a heart to heart and her response was 'why?'. then she sat down and texted for 15 minutes, called OM, then took of for the night. Tonight (yes, for the first time in over a month!) I checked her phone to confirm that their relationship was as strong as ever....a sign please? (These seem like pretty trivial little details, but with almost NO comunication between us, I have to take everything into consideration)

I think she now sees what she has done, and she wants back what she had, but even though she wouldn't admit it, her lack of sincerity tells me she knows that our relationship has been compromised beyond what either one of us is willing to live with. 
I believe that this is what it boils down to. We each have our share of reasons, but thats the bottom line from both sides.

The abortion: you pretty much summed that up :iagree: and it fits with a part of her character that I had 'decided' to live with before: taking the easy way out. 

That being said, I am not rushing things, and as I've said before, I do not burn bridges. Right now I have to forge on. When her mind clears I will accept her with as much open-mindedness as possible. Who knows?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

hyndsight1 said:


> Affaircare..........figured you thought I had become a lost cause!
> So optimistic as always! (may I also mention that you are great at throwing a wrench into things when I feel like I am starting to gain focus!).


:lol: Hynd! No you're never a lost cause. Where there is breath, there's hope. I'm sure you know that I'm a firm supporter of marriage, and as such I rarely encourage someone to end one. But I know how it is--I'm not perfect and I've been there. Not all marriages are saveable, because it means that *BOTH* spouses do the rather tough work of looking at themselves and fighting their own demons. Most/many would rather run and deny what they've done (...hence, the "no fault" divorce industry in the USA ). 

Sooo....Affaircare, wrench-thrower.  I can live with that. 



> One of my issues all along is the feeling that I might be rushing things. Maybe that is just another one of my underlying faults. I have always tried to control my situation, and having direction and purpose helps ease my mind. These weeks of floundering have been hell, and at this point I honestly feel like I just have to pull it together and do something, right or wrong.....


BOY! Do I understand this! The relief that is felt just by having an idea which direction it's going...even if it is toward a divorce! It's such a pain to be in "limbo" and feel like you're waiting on someone else. May I make a suggestion? You don't have to wait on her to make up her mind, per se. I would suggest that you make a few decisions for you that are a) good for you as a person--meaning they make you a better man and b) good for you as a father--meaning things that either protect "the family" as a unit or make you a better parent. This way you are standing firm, in protection mode, growing as a better man, husband and father--and just letting her carry on her little whirlwind off to the side while "you and yours" are taken care of. It will give you a sense of doing something and control, and whether she comes around or not, you'll be a better person for it. 



> I do get your 'coaching thoughts', and as in the past, they are not far from the truth here. I can imagine that she may come around and see the full extent of the damage she has caused. She is not there yet; even though she has thrown out there her wilingness to give it a go, but as far as I can tell she is still kidding herself. I'm not sure if she is trying to remove the blame from herself, or is she being sincere?


Seriously Hynd, it may be VERY, VERY helpful for you if you'd think of her as a drug addict. I think most drug addicts, somewhere in their brain, are aware that stealing from those they love for their drug money is wrong and hurts those they love. I think most drug addicts, somewhere in their brain, realize that being addicted is harmful to them--that they are hurting themselves. And yet they make decisions based on continuing that addiction at all costs, and they make decisions based on an addiction-addled brain. 

If you sort of look at it from that point of view, knowing that an affair is just an addiction and a fantasy, even if she does divorce you and go with the other man, the day will come when the fantasy will bust because fantasy = NOT REAL. The day will come when she will realize what she has done, who she hurt, and what she lost...and I would not wish that day even on my worst enemy. 

Honestly if I were to "guess" just based on your writing, it may just be somewhat creeping into her head now...what she's done and the cost... and the cost is *EXTREMELY* high! So part of her head most likely is wondering how to have it cost less or minimize the consequences to her (no worries about whether than will increase the cost to someone else or an innocent). So this is my guesstimate. However, as I mentioned, it shows a small spark of awareness that she has obligations and responsibilities (to the children at least) that would be a priority over and above "her happiness." As I said that's not a bad foundation on which to start, but I'd also say that it sounds like it would take considerable time to get there. 



> She has admitted that 'loosing me' had a profound affect on her, but if I were her and I thought there was ANY hope at all, (and I wanted it), wouldn't I re-direct my entire focus on that hope? Last night (again) I stressed the need for us to have a heart to heart and her response was 'why?'. then she sat down and texted for 15 minutes, called OM, then took of for the night. Tonight (yes, for the first time in over a month!) I checked her phone to confirm that their relationship was as strong as ever....a sign please? (These seem like pretty trivial little details, but with almost NO comunication between us, I have to take everything into consideration)


Well, hynd, the disadvantage is that you and I are thinking reasonably with a rational mind--she is thinking with the mind of the addict (that's why I call it disloyal dizziness...it makes NO SENSE to anyone who would hear it). It makes no sense to say that losing you has had a profound effect and then turn around and txt all night...except if the txting *is* the drug of addiction. See what I mean? And the very first thing she'd have to do in order to even start this journey is agree to end ALL CONTACT with the other man forever, and give you access to check on her periodically as a way to demonstrate to you that she can be trusted. I don't yet see willingness to end ALL contact forever or willingness to allow you to check on her--so we aren't even at step one. 

Thus I'd take her words mainly to mean, "OUCH! This is going to hurt me and I didn't think it was going to. What way can I wiggle out of having to pay this cost?"



> I think she now sees what she has done, and she wants back what she had, but even though she wouldn't admit it, her lack of sincerity tells me she knows that our relationship has been compromised beyond what either one of us is willing to live with.
> I believe that this is what it boils down to. We each have our share of reasons, but thats the bottom line from both sides.


This is frankly as I suspected. 



> The abortion: you pretty much summed that up :iagree: and it fits with a part of her character that I had 'decided' to live with before: taking the easy way out.


I do realize that not everyone believes as I do, but for me, as a human being, woman, wife and mother... that is just not something I'm sure I could forgive. Not that it's mine to withhold forgiveness from someone but I mean "get over."



> That being said, I am not rushing things, and as I've said before, I do not burn bridges. Right now I have to forge on. When her mind clears I will accept her with as much open-mindedness as possible. Who knows?


I think that's a smart place to be. Keep the kids' lives as normal as possible and never forget that you may think of her as a good mother, but a good father will go to bat for his children and if you have to man up and care for them himself. As much as she is their mother, YOU ARE THEIR FATHER. Okay? Oddly at this point you're in a pretty good place and I kind of trust you to make wise decisions as things come up.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks again AC for your continued support. 

I do understand and have been regarding her as an 'addict', as much as this 'justification' clashes with some of my belifes. I believe this is what has made me so calm and rational in dealing with her recently. (I actualy surprise myself sometimes!). But ultimately I have been thinking long term. I get that what is happening will probably pass, and she will live to resent her past decisions, but then I fast foward past this point and am always left with what we have to share. Forgiveness is just not there for me. I might sound cold, but I have seen and suffered through her actions, and addict or not, I can't find it in me. Not today....

So, today, we had our first meaningfull conversation in over 2 months...
She admitted that she talked to a lawyer today, (for the first time). Outcome: she explained her situation, says she takes full responsibility, gives some very reasnoble and fair expectations, and files.......
We talked through a few scenarios and we are surprisingly agreeable. I posed the possibility of a'buyout', essentialy she walks away with her car and and check, while I keep the 'home' intact for the kids while she re-establishes herself. She said she would like to retain primary custody eventualy, but she wants me to have 'unlimited' access to the kids.......this might work.....


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks again for pointing out to me how clueless our MC was


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

anyone reading through these last couple of pages of my thread is probably getting a pretty clear idea of which way I am tending. 

just got these texts from W:

1) call when you can

2) I would be so greatfull if things could work and be better

3) if you took me back after everything I have done to you....us, I would never let you regret it not even for a second

4) ur my best friend! miss you so much


If I had an ounce of strength left in me, I wouldn't know what to do with it


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Hynd, just do what is best for you. At least she realizes her mistake now.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No one would ever blame a betrayed spouse from walking away from the betrayer. It's just about the worst thing you can go through.


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

Stay strong. I cannot believe she has done a 180 in only 2 months. Keep yourself and your children at the forefront of any decision(s) you make. You know what she's put all of you through. I know you will make the right call.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

hyndsight1 said:


> anyone reading through these last couple of pages of my thread is probably getting a pretty clear idea of which way I am tending.
> 
> just got these texts from W:
> 
> ...



Dear Wifey~

I enjoyed your texts today and look forward to seeing you prove yourself by putting your money where your mouth is. When you are ready to end all contact with the other man forever--allow me to check up on you to prove you're trustworthy--and agree to a plan for recovering the love in our marriage that you threw away, please let me know. When you have done all that work and it is completed, I will be here. I eagerly await the day when you prove your love, commitment and trust to me.

Waiting patiently, 



~Hynd


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks guys,

FA, At one time I thought I knew what was best for me, now....

turnera, yup, can't imagine anything worse.

Help, 180? I think if I cornered her maybe 110.....
right call? hmmmmmm, is there one?


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

I meant "right call for you" 

Oh, I think AC's letter is direct and to the point.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

And Affaircare,

W, were you ignoring my calls?

H, no, just found them confusing and a little hard to take

W, sorry, I just had a bad morning. I feel better now, I'm out with my mom looking at houses....


> When you are ready to end all contact with the other man forever--allow me to check up on you to prove you're trustworthy--and agree to a plan for recovering the love in our marriage that you threw away, please let me know. When you have done all that work and it is completed, I will be here. I eagerly await the day when you prove your love, commitment and trust to me.


Iknow she was 'drugged', but we were here almost 2 months ago. Are things different now? mayyyyyybe.

Help, I got it, but realy, is there one?


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

Only you know the answer to that. Good luck my friend.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

> I eagerly await the day when you prove your love, commitment and trust to me.


I don't know, I might be lying if I said this today


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I know--I added that, if for any reason, as a way to boost you. 

Look here's the truth: right now you are 'bout DONE! D-U-N-put-a-fork-in-him-he's-DONE done. And frankly, there is good reason for that, because she's been dumping HUGE extinguishers on your love fire and for a while there you maybe had some embers and now they've blown out (or at least super close). The fact of the matter is that there actually is a limit to how much a person can take, and you've reached that limit! 

But you know what makes me think that it's conceivable that every ember is not out? Three things that you mentioned. 1) You look at your kids and don't want to hurt them, so somewhere in there you still hope you can pull it off for them. 2) You're posting on here. 3) You sort of struggle and have some sort of second thought. 

I don't know how or why but there is a wee bit of you that is not done yet. 

Did you read what I wrote to Help about going Dark and Silent? You may want to consider that for your own life too. CLEARLY you are meeting some of her needs still, otherwise when she was having "a bad day" she wouldn't turn to you. Also, CLEARLY the ups and downs she puts you through and the suffering you experience with no end in site are having their toll on you. CLEARLY you are very near the end of your rope (if not off the rope entirely). You may want to consider protecting what little bit of a spark remains by ending contact with her until she commits to ending the affair and reconciling the marriage. That way, if she has a bad day... SHE has to face the consequence of no longer having you to turn to. Either she has to take care of it herself or turn to the OM. 

Anyway, the point is that it might protect you a bit and help you limit the B.S. of these txts and calls. She has left you for another man? Cool--turn to him...otherwise leave him and come back to you PERIOD.


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

Hey hyndsight1, I suggested josh1081 read our story and get in touch with you. He posted today and could use some of your wisdom. He is in a similar situation.......


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Done like the last burger left on the grill 'just incase'....



> 1) You look at your kids and don't want to hurt them, so somewhere in there you still hope you can pull it off for them. 2) You're posting on here. 3) You sort of struggle and have some sort of second thought.


Yes, But. Hmmm, I see what you're saying, but I don't know if that would keep my 'spark' from dying. A little detail that is probably important to mention about wifey. I'm sure everyone has had this conversation with their spouse: "if you ever did that to me we would be SO done!".... Guilty, but when she said it she _meant it_. (I thought I did too). Realy though, there has been many an argument in the past that I would chase her out the door begging her to reconsider. She would NEVER go this far out of her way for me. (I know I've oppened up another discusion here, but for now....) Sooooo maybe 1,2,3 above are more of a personal struggle? letting go is not easy for me and I knew day one that if I shut her out completely, there was no turning back. This is why "Dark and Silent' would have been very hard for me to follow through with.



> Anyway, the point is that it might protect you a bit and help you limit the B.S. of these txts and calls. She has left you for another man? Cool--turn to him...otherwise leave him and come back to you PERIOD.


So I guess this is where I am. Frankly I don't expect her back, but she'd better bring more than a few txts to the table if she tries!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you ever really sat down and asked youself what your love for her really is? I mean, we 'love' people for all sorts of reasons. Some of them aren't that healthy, and yours is starting to sound that way. You chase her out the door...she never gives as good as she gets...are you sure this isn't more of an issue where you're - gosh, I don't know how to say this...

Have you ever looked into things like codependency? Sometimes people marry someone for one reason, stay for another, and put up with a lifetime of crap because they can't leave...

Not saying you are like that, but I would like you to at least consider the possibility...that what you think is love is more like...need?


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Another little thing eating away at my conscience........

Why the 180 right after the abortion? I made it VERY clear to her when I found out that I WILL NOT raise his child. I DID tell her that her decision could in no way be based on an "Us". I wonder if I was clear enough? 

Then there is always that (albeit very unlikely) 'chance' that it wasn't his..........

No need to remind me how late it is to have these thoughts........


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Oh turnera, I've looked at this from every direction, even standing on my head! No need to mince words. I guess 'deciding' to love someone is close to what we had, she just decided not to. That sounds cold, don't get me wrong. What we had was something wonderful, but maybe not for all the right reasons. Were we too young? Sure. When we met neither one of us had shoped around, we didn't know what we wanted. All we knew was that we filled a void in each others lives. I don't realy know how to explain our past, but we somehow became the benchmark for a perfect couple in our group of friends and family. Maybe we just accepted each other for who we were, and compromise became a big part of that. I feel like I willingly and _happily_ sacrificed alot over the years for my family. I just wish my efforts could have been fully appreciated. I certainly would take a different aproach in the future....
I see what you're saying about 'need', I would call it more a fear of rejection....(probably no better). Funny thing is though, it is only around her that I feel like this, I wasn't before, I will NOT be again..........


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I just finished reading your story hyndsight. I know all about the pain of coming to terms with being lied to, feeling betrayed, building up hope, having it dashed with more lies, thinking you have a plan, and you are getting stronger, then thinking you don't know which end is up and feeling sad, overwhelmed, beaten and utterly lost.

My chest got tight reading all of this. And I had to acknowledge to myself, in the scheme of things, what I am dealing with and have dealt with, is the friggin infidelity equivalent of the shallow end of the pool compared with your circumstances.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks Deejo, That means alot coming from you. I am familiar with your story and have a great respect for how you have and continue to handle your situation. I think I speak for many around here that you are an inspiration to those of us who are still knee deep and can't seem to get any traction.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Boys had b-ball thismorning, I get to chase D around while they play with 'coach mom'. A little awkward being around people who know. Theres always that 'gossip group' that you try to ignore but keep geting these little sideways glances. Sometimes feel like just saying 'mind your own business'.

As we leave W asks for a hug. She says 'friends still hug'. I guess I did agree I would _like_ to still be friends, but a hug? what could she possibly get from that?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Appearances.

fwiw, you'd get more out of just telling everyone what she is doing. You'd gain your self respect back, and they'd have nothing to gossip about.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Yea, I guess that had crossed my mind, but almost everyone had left when she asked. 

Telling everyone might feel good, but thats just not me. I wouldn't hesitate if asked but honestly it's none of there business. Let them figure it out........


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Ironic off topic story:

I have an Uncle who lives nearby but I havn't seen or talked to him in almost three years. Today he dropped by for reasons regarding his son. My cousin (J) has been incarcerated for 4 years and will be out later this year. J is basicaly the black sheep of the family. He has struggled with drug addiction his whole life, and has been through numerous failed marriages and relationships. His uncontrolable temper/drugs is what has ended all his relationships in physical violelnce, (and subsequently put him in prison). Now that J is detatched from his 'life' and drugs, and is in an intensive therapy program, he is looking towards his future. J is not welcome anywhere near the family home. Neighbors, 'friends', even his own siblings have completely turned their backs on him. In fact his brother suggested that he move to a different state. His past actions have so strongly defined him that nobody is willing to give him a chance now that he 'says' he is going to turn his life around. My uncle looks at his son and and begs 'how can I help?' (the reason he came to me is that J has expressed interest in a similar field of work to mine). I look at my uncle and for a moment feel like I am looking in a mirror, and say, "I know you will do anything you can to help your son, but at the end of the day, the choice is his. If he is truly willing to change himself it has to come from within. When he has made the choice he will then have to prove his determination to regain the trust and support from those he has driven away."


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

hyndsight1 said:


> Boys had b-ball thismorning, I get to chase D around while they play with 'coach mom'. A little awkward being around people who know. Theres always that 'gossip group' that you try to ignore but keep geting these little sideways glances. Sometimes feel like just saying 'mind your own business'.


(Hynd runs by chasing a ball...notices the sideways glances...waves playfully and says): Hi! You can stop gossiping now. She is cheating on me and left me for another man, and I'm not taking her back right now. Anyone want to ask me a question to my FACE rather than behind my back?



> As we leave W asks for a hug. She says 'friends still hug'. I guess I did agree I would _like_ to still be friends, but a hug? what could she possibly get from that?


Honestly, I'm not kidding I would just say "No thank you." If you feel like adding it you can say "Friends don't betray each other and break trust so I don't consider you someone who is my friend right now. Further, I don't hug my male friends, and I have restrained myself from hugging female friends since our vows. So nope. No thank you. No hugs for me."

I am in a snarky mood a little tonight, can you tell? I've had it with these disloyals, and I say that as someone who was one, so I can't cast stones but still. They know the right thing to do, refuse to do it, and then want no consequence. RRRRRRRR!!!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

hyndsight1 said:


> As we leave W asks for a hug. She says 'friends still hug'. I guess I did agree I would _like_ to still be friends, but a hug? what could she possibly get from that?


BTW--if, as life would have it, you two do divorce, there is no reason you can't be civil, be in the same room together, speak and behave in a publicly friendly way, and learn to live lives separate enough that you are no longer entangled. But Hynd don't kid yourself: you won't be friends with her. Either you'd be codependently unable to untangle yourself -or- you would be independent and no longer tangled with her, moving in a different way and life. 

I'm not being mean or saying you have to be mean either--just don't kid yourself. You may get to a point where you progress past being adversaries, but you won't be "friends." She is just trying to continue to get some needs met by you (like being her friend) and some needs met by OM.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Afaircare! Two posts and not one metion of 'hope'? You are in a mood! Did you drop your wrench?

I've speculated about our future 'friendship' and I'll agree, it looks no more than 'civil'. I don't think I am the first to agree to a 'friendship' before we can imagine living without each other. I guess she is still here...


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

My guess is that she's still very deeply into the Disloyal Dizziness that says that others are "happy for her" that she found her soulmate--including the children she's hurting, the husband she destroyed, and the extended relatives who are now devastated. 

I can't speak for everyone but my true friends treat me well. They like me, enjoy my company, and they are people of character and quality. A true friend will tell you the truth to your face even if it hurts because they respect you too much to give less. If that's not true, they are not my friends. And using that definition, exes are not friends. 


~ Affaircare, wrench-thrower


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## josh1081 (Jul 10, 2009)

Affaircare said:


> Honestly, I'm not kidding I would just say "No thank you." If you feel like adding it you can say "Friends don't betray each other and break trust so I don't consider you someone who is my friend right now. Further, I don't hug my male friends, and I have restrained myself from hugging female friends since our vows. So nope. No thank you. No hugs for me."


:iagree:

that made me smile and I don't know how many times I've wanted to say/do things of this nature to my W. I bite my tongue when they come up because my sarcasm and mean spirit is something we had a big problem with in the beginning of our marriage and isn't something I like about myself and worked very hard to change...the cheating in my relationship has woken that beast up a little but I'm doing my best to keep it away from the world.

I finally got through your thread hynd and am glad that I have someone to relate to. The situation sounds so similar to me that it's scary. (although you sound a bit better off in the wallet) 
It's strange how it's so easy to think that your own situation is unique and you can't relate to anyone about it; when in actuality the situation is common and there is a vast support group out there for you to lean on.
I am having trouble posting in my own thread so I can't really respond to anything you or anyone else has said to me so sorry if I don't post there for awhile because I have things saved that I'm just waiting to post.
I hope I can be as strong as you are throughout my ordeal because the way you seem to be handling things is model and something for someone else to strive to have. My only hope is that maybe we can work things out to where it doesn't get legal at all.
My best to you and your situation because I don't think I've said that yet.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

> that made me smile and I don't know how many times I've wanted to say/do things of this nature to my W. I bite my tongue when they come up because my sarcasm and mean spirit is something we had a big problem with in the beginning of our marriage and isn't something I like about myself and worked very hard to change...the cheating in my relationship has woken that beast up a little but I'm doing my best to keep it away from the world


.

The 'nice guy' in me had become nothing more than an enabler to my Ws demeanor. She held double standards from day one that she justified with 'it's not my fault I'm a jealous person'. Add to that she had a VERY short fuse for sarcasm and criticizm, and I just resigned myself to the fact that these things I could not change. I _decided_ to love her for her many positive qualities. I did not resent her for this, I just accepted it. That being said, it is indeed satisfying to finaly stand up to her.



> (although you sound a bit better off in the wallet)


Ha, in that moment I probably sounded kinda materialistic, anything but. I work a very humble job and the only reason I have anything to show for it is is the fact that I have built a couple of houses for myself = sweat equity. Oh, and learning early on that driving paid for cars and paying cash for stuff is waaaay more important to me than putting gas in the new Escalade with my Visa platinum card.....but thats for a different forum

No worries about posting anywhere, just know that we are here should you need the support. Alot of times as you could probably tell I was just writing stuff down. It doesn't always have to make sense or even warrant a reply, to me it just helps to unload parts of my mind sometimes so I can refocus on other things.



> I hope I can be as strong as you are throughout my ordeal because the way you seem to be handling things is model and something for someone else to strive to have.


:rofl:It's all smoke and mirrors!

Hold your head high....


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

> A true friend will tell you the truth to your face even if it hurts because they respect you too much to give less.


I have very few true friends, now one fewer. 

How ironic is it that we can all talk, critique, advise, and support on TAM without any of the walls that so typicaly are built around those whom you would expect no less from.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

My journal entry.....

9:00, W calls:

W, I am organizing a birthday party for (S). It is going to cost $xxx. How should we pay for it?

Me, (chuckle) ummmm, we can split the cost? DOH!!!!

W, and how do you think I am going to do that?

Me, (wow) Lets talk about this tonight, I'm at work.

W, It's only 2 weeks away, I need to know now.

Me, I'm sure one more day isn't going to hurt

W, Well, if you don't want to pay for your own sons party, I know someone who will! Don't expect to get an invitation!

12:00 W texts:

Never mind got it all worked out! Thanks for laughing in my face!

Me, Don't forget who the party is for......

Had plenty of time to think about this today....another 7 hours of jury selection followed by a trip to the E.R. to find out why I'm going blind in one eye.....(lol not making this up)

On the way to E.R. W calls to tell me that she was with a couple over the weekend who had reconciled after an affair.......? point?

So on my way home I call and ask her how this was important to her? W,(shrug) we could too.... So I ask:
How do our situations compare? (shrug)
Do they have kids? No
Have they been married for more than a year? NO
Were they not both promiscuous before they married, (might be irrelevant, but not to me) YES
What did she do to win him back? She didn't have to anything, 
he begged for her back! 
Did she come home pregenant? NO
Did she have an abortion? NO
Where did you sleep the night you talked to them? (silence)
In the last 2 months have you put any effort into leaving OM? (silence)
I rest my case


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## josh1081 (Jul 10, 2009)

and leave it rested I say hynd..my wife has said to me multiple times, and I'm sick of hearing it, I can't have my cake and eat it too. It sounds to me like your wife is having moments of clarity and realizing how stupid she has acted. Don't lose focus of what you are about now and that's your kids. They are what ties you to your life and keeps you sane; even when they drive you nuts 
It's either this or maybe she is getting some kind of sick pleasure in seeing how she can affect you or is just acting plain childish. 
You sound like a great guy and deserve better....like I said before; you never realize how similar your situation is to other people and think it is the only one like it; with that way of thinking, there are, forgive the overused saying, plenty of fish in the sea.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My H went blind for a week once in both eyes. He got a virus in his eyes from somewhere, like he picked up someone's germs. The doctor asked if he'd been to a lot of restaurants lately (he had).


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## josh1081 (Jul 10, 2009)

Might be a money thing; there's alot of nasty germs on money. My friend's mouth filled up with cankersores and he couldn't eat for almost a week because he licked his fingers while he counted money. Maybe there was a same reaction if you touched your eyes.....i have no medical training and am just kind of swinging in the dark


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

> even when they drive you nuts


:bounce:............:banghead:Ha Ha

Childish is the word, thanks Josh


turnera, now your scaring me!

No, not blind yet, just r eye is VERY blurry (canot read this covering left). Thought I just got something in it at work, but after much poking around doc shrugged his shoulders and refered me to an optomitrist.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Now I'm the guy slipping my debit card through the mail slot for my dominos delivery.........while keeping an eye on delivery guy through the peephole....(my one good eye, that is)....thanks guys


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

hyndsight1 said:


> My journal entry.....
> 
> 9:00, W calls:
> 
> ...


Hey Hynd~

This exchange is a PERFECT example of the Disloyal Dizziness and that she expects that you will stay tangled up with her. She is definitely **NOT** see that divorce = NO MORE HYND!!!
May I go over it literally step by step?



> W, I am organizing a birthday party for (S). It is going to cost $xxx. How should we pay for it?


Now in real life, in a divorce, the two divorced parents do not throw one joint party for the child. There would be a party at dad's house and a party at mom's. She is organizing this party without your input, so she should fund it. WHAT? You mean OM doesn't want to pay for her child's party. Huh? Who could have foreseen that he wouldn't meet that need?



> Me, (chuckle) ummmm, we can split the cost? DOH!!!!


Honestly? This is more than generous of you. In real life an even better response would be, "Oh I have my own party for (S) planned and paid for thanks! Good luck with yours"



> W, and how do you think I am going to do that?


Again, see how she clearly thinks that she can cheat on you, leave you, divorce you...and still have you hanging on to meet her financial needs? That is babbling Disloyal Dizziness talking. She left. It's none of your business how she's going to do that. That is HER responsibility now. 



> Me, (wow) Lets talk about this tonight, I'm at work.


Reasonable request--I'm just saying....



> W, It's only 2 weeks away, I need to know now.


Okay the perfect response would be to restate your boundary or request. See in this instance, you clearly made a reasonable request and did not blow her off...just asked for another time due to pressing issues. Her response is to ignore your needs and not care about what you're going through because SHE put things off to the last minute and now has no money...because SHE left. I would say exactly what you did. 



> Me, I'm sure one more day isn't going to hurt


Reasonable response...because in less than a few hours you will be free to discuss this with her. You are hearing her need and being generous enough to offer to share, but she is not hearing your need at all.



> W, Well, if you don't want to pay for your own sons party, I know someone who will! Don't expect to get an invitation!


So if you don't give in to her demand instantaneously, she threatens with punishment. Not very mature, is it? And you never said you didn't want to pay--just that you didn't want to pay HER HALF. I would say this is prime Disloyal Dizziness and at this point if it were on the phone I'd say "I won't be threated into complying with your demand to pay your half. Please feel free to pay for the half of the party you are responsible for in any way you so desire. I am not longer responsible for your choices. I am hanging up now and will keep the phone off the hook so I can concentrate on work. Goodbye." Then click--hang up.

Just so you know Hynd, this is part of her wake up call. The firmer you stand and don't allow her to have her cake and eat it too, the faster she may learn it. Now I realize that large parts of you don't care if she learns life lessons from this, but I can tell you're a man with some character. It is the MOST LOVING THING YOU CAN DO to allow her to learn that she has to experience the natural consequences of her choices. 

I would highly encourage you be fair, be firm, keep your boundaries reasonable, and *let* her fume and fuss a bit. It's okay. She's not going to like having to grow up.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Hi Afaircare,
Confession: I was at work but certainly would have been accomodating to her had she been reasnoble I guess I could tell where this exchange was going and thought if I just put an end to it we would be more productive later.
So anyway, as for "the rest of the story", she never did end up making reservations....seems my boy decided that wasn't realy his first choice....imagine that.



> Just so you know Hynd, this is part of her wake up call. The firmer you stand and don't allow her to have her cake and eat it too, the faster she may learn it. Now I realize that large parts of you don't care if she learns life lessons from this, but I can tell you're a man with some character. It is the MOST LOVING THING YOU CAN DO to allow her to learn that she has to experience the natural consequences of her choices.


Strangly enough I do care. I just find myself thinking if I had allowed her to take responsibility more in the past, we might not be here now, (I know, I know.....). I just feel like I was never 'man' enough to show her 'tough love'. It was always so much easier (on me) to make her happy I guess. Seems kinda selfish looking at it that way.:scratchhead:


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Hynd or was it easier to "make her happy" because you feared losing her otherwise? Think about that -- really think about it because that is emotional dishonesty. And I was guilty of it with my w. No more for me.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Absoloutly FA, guilty, and ditto. I look back at some of our seemingly insignificant disagreements now and how I handled them, and it is painfully clear how WRONG I was. I guess thats part of where I am now with W; I don't think she believes me when I say 'I am not the same person'.......


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

hyndsight1 said:


> Absoloutly FA, guilty, and ditto. I look back at some of our seemingly insignificant disagreements now and how I handled them, and it is painfully clear how WRONG I was. I guess thats part of where I am now with W; I don't think she believes me when I say 'I am not the same person'.......


Okay here it is--the really good meaty stuff that you've always wanted to hear from the wrench-thrower. The fact that you don't blame someone else for your shortcomings, that you face yourself head on and admit where you went wrong is virtually head and shoulders ahead of most people. Whether your wife ever comes around or not, just that alone will make you a much better man and father (and hopefully, husband). And although she may not see it (because she's mad that you're making her feel the pain of her choices) there are folks who can really tell you HAVE changed. 

I know that at the time it seems like giving in to people, letting them have their way, covering for their mistakes, and "taking care of it" so they don't get hurt by something they did *FEELS* like it's loving and caring for them, but in real life its not. It is effectively saying, "I don't think you're mature enough to deal with the natural results of what you chose" and it sort of stunts their emotional growth. And although she is *100% responsible* for choosing to have an affair, you are dead on correct--treating her like that did lead to an environment that made your marriage vulnerable. When you love your spouse, you give them the benefit of the doubt that they are an adult and they can handle it--and you know what? You see that now don't ya? 

So, you are miles and MILES ahead of most people just by looking at yourself and admitting where you went wrong. Not only that but I see you're working on doing things differently (i.e., you're not continuing to treat her like that and you're trying different options to allow her to experience the consequences). As you try different options, honestly you'll likely try "_this_" and say "Well that went well--I'm doing that again" and try "_that_" and say "Well that was a flop--no more doing that one." That's cool! Just keep adjusting and learning--treating her with respect and letting her learn what she needs to learn and you will be ... wow seriously AMAZING. 

I'm so proud of you.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks Affaircare  that was motivational........ (no wrench?)


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Btw Afaircare, 



> Another odd thing I've seen happen over and over is a spouse that gets involved with a group of "friends" either at work or school or whatever, and this group of "friends" is anything BUT friends. They are unfaithful, bitter, angry, divorced or divorcing folks who convince someone who's a little less than thrilled that their marriage is abusive and always has been, etc.


:iagree:


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## josh1081 (Jul 10, 2009)

beat me too it hynd....like a page out of my life lol


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

ditto - "Bunco Babes" are anything but.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

So, this is too good not to share:

W runs into her friend (L). They end up talking about 'us'. L is shocked, feels so bad for_ me _ that she asks for my # so she can offer support. 

Ironic part: L has been seriously dating a guy for about a year, since his wife ended their 8 year marriage with an affair.....with now MY Ws OM no less!

Punch line: My W tells me about giving out my phone # and follows with, "I would feel so bad for *him* if you and L ........ :rofl:

I don't even_ like _soap operas....


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

hyndsight1 said:


> So, this is too good not to share:
> 
> W runs into her friend (L). They end up talking about 'us'. L is shocked, feels so bad for_ me _ that she asks for my # so she can offer support.
> 
> ...


:lol: :rofl:Wait...let me see if I have this straight! :lol: :rofl:

Your W's friend L is dating a man who's marriage ended because his wife had an affair with your W's *OTHER MAN*???

Is she blind or stupid? 

I'm sorry I don't call people stupid lightly but.... (jawdrop) SERIOUSLY? Does she not see that OM is a serial cheater? And if he was the kind who could commit he would be with the OTHER lady who's marriage he broke up! 

OH*MY*GOD!

Okay I've heard it all now. You could not make this up...seriously. Hynd, you know I respect you and all, I'm just stunned. Man! :rofl:


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

"Stunned". I thought for a minute it was just me, but if AC is too.........
Best part is I could tell that_ she didn't get it_ No point in spelling that one out...........


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Hynd you know what? First, let me apologize. My response was WAY less that professional. Human=yes, professional=no. I'm sorry, my human side got the better of me for a minute there. 

Second, speaking as a professional and a human this really does, no kidding, take the cake. I have tried for a long time to come up with an example of the Disloyal Dizziness so I could say "It's like this...." and people could kind of "get the idea" from the example. This is just so bizzaro that it sure explains it! 

Truly any person with a sound mind would hear this and think :slap: "HELLO! DUR! He broke up another lady's marriage and then ditched her so he could take up with me. He has a pattern of doing this and will do it to me" but not a Disloyal. You can really see now that they live in an unreal world of fantasy. 

Well it would be sad if it weren't so funny. From the objective point of view -- 3rd person -- this is unbelievable that she didn't even see it but (shrug) sounds about right coming from a Disloyal. Wow--deep, deep dizziness.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

No apologies AC, good to know you are human And yes, as sad as it is (for her), I can't help but ::lol:. I've realized that it sure beats the alternative!


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## Notaclue (Jan 1, 2010)

WOW I had to read this twice. No offense hyndsight but maybe you need to nominate your W for a Darwin award if she really doesn't see the train wreck that's going to happen. It's like she is standing on the tracks and the train is five miles away going 5 mph and she is still going to get run over. It amazes me how out of touch with reality our W's are.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

No offense NC, but I was thinking she could share your screen name.......that might be lost on her too though


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## Notaclue (Jan 1, 2010)

:lol:No problem Hyndsight, she can have my screen name if that will help any. The way I feel now, I have thought of a lot of other ones I should be using...all related to anger management.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

I can certainly relate to that NC, more and more daily. At first it was pain, then grief, then confusion, then numbness, then cold, now: MAD.


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

hyndsight1 said:


> I can certainly relate to that NC, more and more daily. At first it was pain, then grief, then confusion, then numbness, then cold, now: MAD.


It's a cycle...I'm on my 2nd round. Back on pain/grief as she tries to play nice and make amends on the eve of our court date.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

I get that every day Help: the little hugs, the "we're still gonna be friends, right?", just enough to REALY mess with me, but NEVER enough to reconsider. I had another 'feeling guilty for being so cold' moment this morning. She was out of the room and her phone recieved a message....(I wasn't 'checking' it, it just happened to be right beside me!). Anyway, realy sweet message from OM:smthumbup: Sooooo I did check back a few....enough to make you throw up! So, as I said, MAD! I translate her 'resent' as the realisation that her charmed life is turning into a trailer park........


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

Well, due to the no contact I have not had any in person conversations with her - only a few texts and emails. Therefore, I guess my "cycle" lasted 4 months. She used to leave formal messages "Hello H this is X and I need to talk to you about something". Now it's "Hi it's me - call me back". I'm not buying it.


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## Notaclue (Jan 1, 2010)

Same here Hyndsight, she seems to think we are going to be friends - not likely. And I have been through a couple of rounds so far Help, I think it runs in cycles grief - anger, grief - anger.... 

As soon as this divorce is done, it will be total non-contact. No more she is allowed to come over to the house thing. Done, finis, caput ! Guess I'm on the Anger cycle today - LOL


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

I wish I could reduce the contact W and I have right now, but with 3 kids under the age of 8 I hesitate provoking anything that would unnesesarilly upset them. I have resorted to "dark and silent" which altough seemingly passive agressive, my point seems to be getting across. She commented tonight that I seemed "different" and "bitter". I didn't bother pointing out what an understatement that was.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

First a brief update, 

No changes in w's behavior

This is the first time I have refered to her as "stb-x", so yes, the jury is in. I served her last thursday.

I have since drawn back from this aspect of my life temporarily. 

This last few days I have spent questioning every aspect of my life. From who I was 20 years ago, to who I have become and how I have contributed to my current situation, and most importantly, who I WILL become. I have discovered that this is so much more than a failed marriage to me, this is a life change in almost every way. I go to work in the morning knowing that even my (past) career will soon be just another page in my history. 

So here is my current question:

My big boy turns 8 tomorrow. After going bowling with stb-x and OM on sunday, he asks 'for his birthday' that we go as a family. She seems fine with this, me..........the thought of putting on my  face for 3-4 hours sounds difficult. very. What would you do? Stb is still throwing out "we still could...." sometimes. I don't want to show her any mixed messages at this point. ????


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

He has to understand the pain some time, unfortunately. Carrying on as a family will only confuse him. Sorry.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

At this point Hynd, I would tell your boy how you feel -- if you can't do it or more importantly don't want to do it -- then don't. But explain why to him. Since she isn't hiding the OM -- which again I think is disgraceful -- do what you want with him. Maybe next year will be different.

Just my two cents.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

hyndsight1 said:


> First a brief update,
> 
> No changes in w's behavior
> 
> This is the first time I have refered to her as "stb-x", so yes, the jury is in. I served her last thursday.


Hynd--this is sad on many levels, but I want you to know that it's mainly sad there is no change in STBXW's behavior. She dug a hole that was too deep to get out of, and you know what? I'm sad that it's ending and sad for you that you were treated like this and sad for your kids. 

BUT just know this. It will be quite a journey, but you will survive and be amazed at how much better of a man you come out at the other end. Here's my one word of advice to you, and please, please take time to at least consider it. For a while...concentrate on getting back to the real you and concentrate on your children. Getting into a relationship now, well you may "get laid" but you aren't ready to really give to someone yet and I think you can do better than just boink. You have some depth of character to you and will be a fine husband and man for someone one day. 



> I have since drawn back from this aspect of my life temporarily.
> 
> This last few days I have spent questioning every aspect of my life. From who I was 20 years ago, to who I have become and how I have contributed to my current situation, and most importantly, who I WILL become. I have discovered that this is so much more than a failed marriage to me, this is a life change in almost every way. I go to work in the morning knowing that even my (past) career will soon be just another page in my history.


Well nothing personal but this oddly a great time to do it. Okay if your life is "up in the air" due to the divorce, you may as well examine EVERYTHING and get the whole thing on a good track, right? Do what you REALLY enjoy and believe--and fully be the man you have the potential to be. 



> So here is my current question:
> 
> My big boy turns 8 tomorrow. After going bowling with stb-x and OM on sunday, he asks 'for his birthday' that we go as a family. She seems fine with this, me..........the thought of putting on my  face for 3-4 hours sounds difficult. very. What would you do? Stb is still throwing out "we still could...." sometimes. I don't want to show her any mixed messages at this point. ????


Again, it's sad, but I'd tell your big boy that your sorry but mom and dad won't be going as a family. (No need to blame her out loud per se but in your head know that it's not you breaking this up, but choices made by the STBXW.) It would indeed by mixed messages and false hope to go bowling "as a family" especially if STBXW trotted out the OM at a b-day party this weekend. That's HORRIBLE! So just tell him, "Oh I'm sorry big guy, but your mom had her party with you this weekend, remember? For your day, I'd be happy to go bowling you and me and all the kids! We'll have fun, pizza, soda--it'll be great and I'd be happy to spend your birthday with you!"


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

I know, it is past time for a real heart to heart with the boys, but just can't do it on his birthday, and honestly I just wasn't ready until now. I guess that being said, this was my fault for lack of anticipation. Don't realy have the choice at this point but to put on my best show and plan on a time soon to have the talk.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

AC: over the weekend was just for fun, not a party. And not that it realy matters, as I'm sure they may suspect, but as far as I know they still only know OM as moms "friend"


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Also, if anyone *didn't* go tomorrow, it would be me, which would meen missing his birthday, planning something else for 'me' in the next day or two, adding more confusion.........like I said, i'll just make the best of it, he deserves that.


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

I feel for you hynd....I really do. Our son turns 7 in about a week. His mother has him next week. She has already confused him so it was easy for me to explain the situation to him. 

For the last month he's been excited about us both going to be at his birthday party. That's what SHE told him. She never invited me so I made no assumptions. Now after the last court date the stb-X not getting her way AGAIN, she tells him last week that Daddy won't be at your birthday party. Again, no communication about this with me at all. So, when I picked up the kids this past Friday, he naturally asks me why am I not going?

I told him the truth. I told him mom never asked dad about coming to the party. I told him since he's with her on that day that she decides who she wants at her house for your party. I told him I would have another party for him when he comes back to me. So he made up a bithday wish list and handed it to me yesterday. Lol....what a great kid.

No doubt the stb-x will continue with her ways and have the OM at the party and most likely over that night. She actually had the kids make him a bithday cake for him last week and took them to his birthday dinner. She has no idea the damage she is doing. 

They absolutely hate the guy and do not trust him at all. Gee, I wonder why? Apparently they act out at her place and are mean to him. I found out their mother one of them she knows I asked them to treat him this way. Nope, not true. She also thinks the younger ones are angry and blames me for that. Apparently they yell "I hate you" to her a lot when they are with her. It saddens me greatly that they are this way with her.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

I know, I know....

I just can't get this picture out of my head; stb trying to bowl, while talking on the phone with OM....freaking rediculous. In fact the phone was ringing or on her ear more than half the time we were there. I swear she is 30 going on 13. 

When we left though, T says "That was awesome!  I want to come here next year too" 

Almost forgot, on the way home I asked how there day was, T says: "It was fun, mom took us out of school early and we met ...(OM) at the Y, he showed me .......(swimming strokes) and got me a baseball glove for my birthday!" Yay!:banghead:

*Basta!*


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

Yeah, it's tough but consider this. My situation - the OM will be AT my son's birthday party. stb-X is turning into what she always was I guess.....and they deserve each other.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

That will be next year for me. How do you keep it from turning into a "competition"?


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

I don't see it as one, so I don't act like it is a competition. His mom can get him everything on his birthday wish list. But if she spends most of his birthday next to the OM and paying attention to the OM, our son will act out and could care less about the gifts.

One of my daughters said tonight as she was tucked into bed....

"Dad, will you play dominos with me tomorrow?" 

I had promised I would today but after a picnic at the park, baking cookies and ice cream and a movie after dinner, we didn't have enough time. So I said, when your aunt comes over tomorrow and Daddy's at his interview I'm sure she'll play dominoes with you. You know what she said?

"It's not the same. I like it when you play dominoes with me."

Point made. I promised to play a game with her at lunch tomorrow. The kids will know if you are comparing yourselves with each other and don't really care to be caught in the middle. Just do the best you can and it will be enough for them.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Hynd~

The first Christmas after my divorce, my exH took the kids to Disneyland. 

Now on one hand that's humorous because you talk about a Disney-Dad!  It was literally stereotypical! On the other hand, I felt like "How in the WORLD could I possibly compete with a $10k trip for the holidays?" and I felt like such a loser. 

I told my kids how I was feeling, and my kids were youngish but you know what they said to me? "Mom don't be silly. You are here for us every day and give us a place to live and food to eat. You saved up to get us something nice all year. Dad happened to get some cash or a big sale at the end of the year and we're gonna go cuz who wouldn't?" 

:lol: :rofl: From that point forward I knew they saw through his baloney and I didn't have to say a thing, and I was stunned that kids could see all that. You have no need to compete AT ALL. Be who *you* are and be brilliant at it, and they will see that you are being thoughtful, loving and fair...and see through her malarchy probably more than you give them credit for.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's why I always say that, aside from giving them unconditional love - their biggest need, the most important thing you can give them is total honesty, always. You HAVE to be the one person in the world they can always trust to be honest with them. If you're not, their whole world is shaken to the core.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Hynd,

As everyone has said it isn't a competition as long as you don't make it one. And unfortunately you and I have to get used to hearing that so and so gave me that or I did this with them. 

As long as you are honest with them as Turnera said they will remember that always. I am actually making it a point not to "buy" everything for my son because I don't want him spoiled. Yes he is the center of my universe but he can't think he is the center of "The Universe". He needs to learn that life isn't always easy, but that you pick yourself up and keep moving forward. That will be my greatest gift to him -- showing him how to do that. And that will be your greatest gift to your kids.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks guys, 

I guess what adds to this for me is that 'spoiling' the kids, (with cheap plastic crap) has always been a bit of an issue between W and I. Our upbringings were on either extreem on this, and her parents even now will go into debt every christmas to essentialy 'buy the grankids aproval'. To some extent this works with young kids, but I know you are all correct, they will understand what is most important.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If they get tons of stuff like that, you can turn it into a learning moment. Every year or so, I would have my daughter go through her stuff and pick out things she didn't want or need, and we would donate it to a women's shelter, where the kids typically had nothing. Like if she had 13 stuffed animals, I'd tell her to pick out her favorite 7, and we'd donate the rest. She couldn't care less about material things now. Well...clothes and shoes...but she is a teenager!


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Hynd,

I've been thinking about your birthday post and your need to have the talks with your kids. One thing I am doing is writing letters to my son -- that one day I will give him. In the letters I talk about life and what I'm learning from my experience(s). Maybe try that for a release.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

I know FA, I am actualy preparing for that right now. A few things are starting to catalize and I feel like I can give them the clear answers that they will need now. This is what has stalled me the most, and although I don't have all the answers yet, I feel like I can answer what they need me to, the rest being up to her. I also felt at one time that having mom and dad tell them 'together' would be easier for them, but now I don't see that as being of any benefit. I can only hope she will handle her part appropriately.
I think the letters are a great idea, albeit a little early for me yet. I am still writing 'letters' to myself...


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

So last night something set her off and things turned a little ugly between stb-x and I. She apparently has no trust in me (ironic) and appears afraid I might be 'out to get her'. Verbaly agressive behavior is her means of dealing. So I wrote something in hopes that it might clear some things up, just not sure if I should let her read it. Thoughts?

"I feel the need to clarify a few things. I am doing this on paper because I feel the ability to have a rational discusion with you right now is clouded with obvious emotion. Take from it what you may, if nothing else I will feel better that you know exactly where I stand.

1) Honesty-I am now and always have been a man of my word. Even through this difficult time, I can assure you that I will not lie to you for future gains.

2) Acceptance- I am "over us" There is nothing that can be done or said at this point that will bring us back together. It still pains me greatly to admit this, but it is what it is.

3) Friends- I find it hard to believe that you would ever treat one of your 'friends' with the contempt that you demonstrated towards me last night. 'Friends' do not get married, nor do they get divorced. Realisticaly the most we can hope for is to treat each other with as much respect and civility as possible.

4) Our 'Agreement'- (refer back to #1) It seemed after our talk a couple of weeks ago that we were on the same page here. These were, and still are, my "ideal" intents. Recently you have given me reason to believe that you are having second thoughts. If not, good, if so, keep in mind:
A)I want above all what is best for our kids, including but not limited to:
-a safe, stable home
-availability to both parents
-emotional security, ie. how our relationship affects them
-reducing the impact of our situation as much as possible
My initial 'ideal' still holds, however, if any of these conditions are not met, I am willing and able to make sure that they are met. Regardless of what you are being told elsewhere, if this goes to court you will be bringing a knife to a gun fight.
B) Financialy you have been offered a GOOD DEAL, but as you know, you have every right to fight me down to the last knife and fork. That being said:
-I need you for nothing
-As much as you don't want to admit it, you do still need me
-'Support' is based on proven income
-I have every intent on paying you 'support' based on my current salary, BUT:
-I don't have to remind you that I have the skill and connections to live comfortably and suport my children without 'showing' income
-Don't bite the hand that feeds

5) I am at the point where I have accepted worst case scenario and I am prepared for it, but I'll say one more time, refer to #1, remember my 'ideal', and make the right decision. I sincerely hope that we can stay in that 2%." (the number of divorces that start and end 'amicably')


So, am I asking for trouble? I just want her to know that I want to settle out of court, but I will not be intimidated by her. I think the more "lawyer talk' she gets the bolder she is....


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## sicksicksick (Mar 7, 2010)

hyndsight1 said:


> So last night something set her off and things turned a little ugly between stb-x and I. She apparently has no trust in me (ironic) and appears afraid I might be 'out to get her'. Verbaly agressive behavior is her means of dealing. So I wrote something in hopes that it might clear some things up, just not sure if I should let her read it. Thoughts?
> 
> "I feel the need to clarify a few things. I am doing this on paper because I feel the ability to have a rational discusion with you right now is clouded with obvious emotion. Take from it what you may, if nothing else I will feel better that you know exactly where I stand.
> 
> ...



Thats fantastic my friend. I wish I had the insight & comprehension to write like that & a boat builder to boot  
My only comment would be not to include... if this goes to court you will be bringing a knife to a gun fight.
I just think its to threatening. The rest of the letter reads fine without this. It is what it is, honesty.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks sick, 



> My only comment would be not to include... if this goes to court you will be bringing a knife to a gun fight.


 I just like saying that.

Probably not that acutate anyway in todays divorce court, but it would be nice to think that it was.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

OK Sean Connery. We get it your untouchable.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Realy? OK Matthew McConaughey

I am (still) strugglig with 'lack of control' issues, but I guess this probably isn't the way to go about re-gaining it. If I worked harder on 'releasing control', I would probably be more productive. Bite my tongue and practice being 'aloof?'

"There are women who take it to the wire. That's what they are looking for, the ultimate confrontation. They want a smack." -Sean Conery


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

teamwork, there's a foriegn concept.....


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Sorry Hynd -- your line about coming to a gun fight with a knife was a line in the movie "THe Untouchables" spoken by Sean Connery's character. I was just referencing that.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Appologies? no no, forgive my ignorance!

Ahh, today is a good day. Why I don't know, maybe the weather, but I feel it. Wishing others feel the same way....


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

No ignorance -- probably bad that I know that trivial fact. I just liked that movie and happened to see it a couple weeks ago.

Its a good weather day here -- maybe it feels good because this winter has been dreadful for NC. Now it's sunny and warm and that never hurts the old mood.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

So I grab the 'family camera' tonight to save a few pics i've been wanting to, and what should I find but a bunch of shots of half naked OM and stb-x making out. Nice. What sicko was taking these? I'm over it now, but realy, what a crappy way to end an otherwise 'good as can be expected' weekend.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Hey hyndsight, did you send the letter?
Just remember if its on paper, odds are it will end up in her attorneys hands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

No, I crawled back in my hole for now. I am strugling with control: I know the statistics and what is 'best' for us, and I will not try to cheat her out of a fair deal, but I fear she will take anyones advice but mine, and this letter will only do one of two things. I don't think I am willing to take that risk quite yet. 

I did read through it as her attorney might, and correct me if I'm wrong, (anyone), but am I 'legaly' out of line? Eluding to tax evasion might be sketchy, but...prove it? (maybe a bluff, but she wouldn't find it hard to believe).


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Just like those developed photos should end up in your attorney's hands. 

I know what everyone is going to say:"No fault means the courts don't care who's doing who" ... and in real life the courts will not consider that when they decide the division of property, etc. However, your state (if I remember correctly) does have the option of no fault _OR_ fault and with the pictures you could prove adultery and it could be a bargaining chip that you could use. 

For example "I will go with No Fault if you give me primary custody and you accept visitation" or "No Fault with no alimony or Fault, Adultery, court sees photos, it's all made public, and there'll still be no alimony." The point is not so much that you become an attack dog now as this would be your ace in the hole if she gets weird and tries to not honor the Agreement. Know what I mean?


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Yep, I have been thinking of a way to get 'proof positive' (recording a conversation or something), "just in-case", but I guess that's not necessary anymore.


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