# I have lost all hope for wife's sex drive.



## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

I've posted several things around here about how my wife has an extremely low sex drive (She's 31, I'm 35, 2 kids 4 and 6). The #1 thing people always say is that I need to try to make sex more enjoyable for her. Focus on her pleasure. Focus on her orgasm, not your own. I would... gladly. Except, she won't even let me do anything to try to make it more enjoyable for her. She has SO MANY RULES!!! Foreplay has become a ****ing joke... basically just a quick, laborious hand job to get me hard, and then she just bends over and away I go. That's how it is 90% of the time. Absolutely NO ORAL, either way. Not allowed to touch her vagina with my hands, or really even look at it. Recently, she has made me aware that she doesn't even like me to touch her boobs, and now swats me away. Okay... so that doesn't leave a whole lot. She sometimes makes some sounds, but mostly she's quiet and stoic. I don't have a premature ejaculation problem, per se, but after a few minutes I make myself finish because I can tell it's going absolutely nowhere for her. 

You may ask... "Why are you continuing to have sex with her?" I suppose just to keep the peace. I genuinely don't want to have that kind of sex anymore. We only have sex when she initiates, about once a week. She actually gets pissed if I refuse her. I seriously haven't initiated in months, because I seriously DO NOT ****ING WANT TO!!! I can't believe it's come to this. I love sex. I'm a very sexual person. I'd have sex every single day if I could, and we used to. I realize that having kids changes everything, but this is getting ridiculous. She even stated that she would like to go out for a date night with me without the pressure of having sex at the end of the night. So we're doing that this weekend. I'm not saying I can't have fun with my wife without having sex, but we have an overnight babysitter and all...

Attempts to bring this up usually end with her getting defensive and saying she feels pressured to act a certain way, which just gets me farther away from my goal of a mutually satisfying sex life with my wife. The last time we had sex, the other day, it went pretty much to the script I stated above. And AS SOON as it was over (aka as soon as I was done) she was like "I'M SO TIRED! I HAVE TO DO THIS, AND THAT, ETC ETC ETC.... " and began to list a whole bunch of **** she had to get done tomorrow. At that point, what little hope I was holding onto for my sex life DIED. Just ****ing DIED. I couldn't care less if I never have sex with her again. In February, we are going on a little vacation to a resort in Mexico. It's free, clients I'm associated with through work are paying for the whole thing for a large group of their customers. It will be our first vacation on our own since our kids were born. I'm actually dreading it. Being around a bunch of other drunk, horny couples just sounds like it will make me feel worse. While everybody else will GET DRUNK AND SCREW, best case scenario I'll get to masturbate with my wife's vagina for a few minutes and feel like a rapist. 

I'm not a cheater, I never have cheated before, but all I can say is I'm starting to see why some people do. I'm starting to see the appeal in it... and that scares me.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Don't know what to say.
Feel bad for you. Sounds like a rough life.

At least your wife seems to care enough to have sex with you. Done don't give a damn period. But what you're getting is not really an effort. 

And there's nothing you can do that she wants? No back rubs, etc?

Wish I could help you. But I think it is what it is. No hormone treatments possibly?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Why is she initiating once a week?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

podiumboy said:


> The last time we had sex, the other day, it went pretty much to the script I stated above. And AS SOON as it was over (aka as soon as I was done) she was like "I'M SO TIRED! I HAVE TO DO THIS, AND THAT, ETC ETC ETC.... " and began to list a whole bunch of **** she had to get done tomorrow. At that point, what little hope I was holding onto for my sex life DIED. Just ****ing DIED. I couldn't care less if I never have sex with her again.


Sounds like that may end up being a defining moment. 

Sometimes something breaks inside of you and you are just......'done.' 

Time will shortly tell if that is the case here. 

I certainly can't say that I'd blame you if that were the case. IHMO every creature that reproduces through sexual means has a right to pursue a sex life that they deem suitable. If this situation is not acceptable to you, there is no reason to accept it.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Feel terrible for you, @podiumboy ~ Have y'all sought out sexual therapy or counseling? You are going to need it!

Her sexual behavior is rather unusual for a healthy 31 year old woman!

My prayers are with you, my friend!*


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

This sucks. Especially the no touching part during sex. You have one of two choices. Address the issue with her and dont let her off the hook. Or keep quiet and let things keep going the way they are.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

At the risk of wasting my time - again - I will give you another idea to try. But somehow I don't think you actually will. But here it is anyways. 

The Policy of Joint Agreement

Podiumboy - you have posted here many times. I understand the need to vent - but I have to ask if you have followed any of the advice given you in your other posts? What have you personally changed in the relationship with your wife?

You can't change your wife - you can only change yourself. It would appear your wife is not willing to make any changes and unfortunately for you she controls your sex life. You are not willing to make any long term changes or get professional help and you are not willing to rock the boat or leave the marriage. Since neither of you will make changes, basically - yes - this is your life from now on.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> I've posted several things around here about how my wife has an extremely low sex drive (She's 31, I'm 35, 2 kids 4 and 6).


From all that I have read about your wife, I don't think she has a low sex drive at all.

That said I am convinced your behaviour, approach and point of view is a primary contributor to your miserable sex life.



podiumboy said:


> The #1 thing people always say is that I need to try to make sex more enjoyable for her. Focus on her pleasure. Focus on her orgasm, not your own.


Perhaps you are missing the point. Sure it is important to pay attention to your mates sexual satisfaction as well. Yet focusing on this at the expense of your own sexual satisfaction is ridiculous.

Plus it is also worth remembering that men and women can still orgasm during sex, yet that sex can still be a bit meh if the rest was a bit disappointing at the time as well.

Orgasms matter, yet orgasms alone don't make great sex.



podiumboy said:


> I would... gladly. Except, she won't even let me do anything to try to make it more enjoyable for her.


Except your actions prove otherwise. She tells you what she wants, yet you dismiss that and claim she has too many rules.

If you want her to be more open to do other things, you need to be more open to what she tells you as well.



podiumboy said:


> She has SO MANY RULES!!! Foreplay has become a ****ing joke... basically just a quick, laborious hand job to get me hard, and then she just bends over and away I go. That's how it is 90% of the time. Absolutely NO ORAL, either way. Not allowed to touch her vagina with my hands, or really even look at it. Recently, she has made me aware that she doesn't even like me to touch her boobs, and now swats me away.


Hmmm...



podiumboy said:


> Just recently, she told me she doesn't like it when I touch her boobs until we're already having intercourse.


Until you actually listen to her, appreciate what she is trying to tell you and test and adjust accordingly, she is right to swat you away.

So wake the **** up, if a woman tells you they don't like having their boobs touched until they are having intercourse don't fiddle with them until you are having intercourse.

Then at that point find out through testing and adjusting whether that is before or after she is ramping up towards having an orgasm. Since some women don't like to have their boobs played with until then and some of them when that point is reached will even enjoy having their nipples bitten at that point.

The thing is if she isn't enjoying it and moves you away, accept it and don't go into sulky baby ego protection mode. Just wait and try later, pay attention to how your wife responds and how she moves and how she feels in detail.

Plus the other thing to appreciate is sometimes it may feel awesome for her and yet at other times it won't, so again know your wife, pay attention and understand that sex doesn't always feel the same, all of the time, every time.

The thing is she has told you something about her sexuality that will help you help her enjoy it by offering you a solution, yet you instead dismissed what she shared

That said since your wife initiates all of the time, while you don't and she is the one who has to tug you off for you to get an erection, she is doing most of the work. While ever you lack enthusiasm or display any desire, you shouldn't expect her to do cartwheels just because you want sex, yet instead passive aggressively never initiate it.

If you want her to do more things with you, you need to be a safe port for what she shares with you.

If you want oral sex, be a safe place for her sexuality, stop being passive aggressive, initiate sex, don't leave the maintenance of your sex life in her hands alone, don't sulk, don't play pity party nonsense and go there in stages since you have a lot of shared crud to undo.



podiumboy said:


> Okay... so that doesn't leave a whole lot. She sometimes makes some sounds, but mostly she's quiet and stoic. I don't have a premature ejaculation problem, per se, but after a few minutes I make myself finish because I can tell it's going absolutely nowhere for her.





podiumboy said:


> You may ask... "Why are you continuing to have sex with her?" I suppose just to keep the peace.


Well I wouldn't ask, yet now that you mention it.

If the only reason why you continue to have sex with your wife is to keep the peace, it would be evident to your wife that you aren't particularly enthused to have sex with her.

So why you think she would play porn star for you makes no sense at all. And when I say porn star I mean if you think she should be making noises when you're at it, or when she has an orgasm you are barking up the wrong tree.



podiumboy said:


> I genuinely don't want to have that kind of sex anymore. We only have sex when she initiates, about once a week. She actually gets pissed if I refuse her.


So she is the one who shows the initiative and leadership by initiating sex, and you do fricken nothing but whine like a big girls blouse and to top it off you turn her down because sometimes you want to get her back for her sexual slights against you.

How about you put your pants on, act like they fit and try to initiate sex on your own initiative.



podiumboy said:


> I seriously haven't initiated in months, because I seriously DO NOT ****ING WANT TO!!!





podiumboy said:


> I can't believe it's come to this.


I can believe it, in fact with your approach it was kind of inevitable.



podiumboy said:


> I love sex. I'm a very sexual person.


Colour me skeptical. If your wife initiates once a week and you sometimes refuse, while she tries to communicate honestly with you about her sexuality. Yet you dismiss her and ignore what she shares, while also not initiating sex with her. Your actions prove otherwise.



podiumboy said:


> I'd have sex every single day if I could, and we used to.


Relationships aren't static, people aren't static, you can either grow with her or apart from her. Sulking about things that you make happen is hardly going to fix things for you.



podiumboy said:


> I realize that having kids changes everything, but this is getting ridiculous.


Indeed, if only you would change your mind the sex would follow. Kids are only an issue if you choose to think they are.



podiumboy said:


> She even stated that she would like to go out for a date night with me without the pressure of having sex at the end of the night. So we're doing that this weekend. I'm not saying I can't have fun with my wife without having sex, but we have an overnight babysitter and all...


Your wife is trying to connect with you outside and independent of the bedroom, in order to improve your relationship and sex life. Yet instead of wanting to do the same you care about protecting your sensitive, delicate and rather fragile ego instead.

By going on a date sans the promise of sex, it affords both of you an opportunity to connect without that pressure from the kids at home, sex and all the rest. While allowing you both to enjoy each other personally, and to even bring back a little mystery, through encouraging some sexual tension and excitement by not having sex while still courting each other.

Yet you throw baby tantrums and do cartwheels on this forum, over your wife offering you an opportunity to fix that which is broken.

While ever you can't get over your own fragile ego, you won't have a great sex life.

You would do well, to date her every chance you can get at your own instigation. You know like take the lead, show a bit of initiative and leadership and set up the dates yourself. Then build tension and tease her as well, without going to wanting intercourse every time you go out.



podiumboy said:


> Attempts to bring this up usually end with her getting defensive and saying she feels pressured to act a certain way, which just gets me farther away from my goal of a mutually satisfying sex life with my wife.


Ignoring what your wife tells you, refusing to initiate sex with her and wanting her to make noises for you (i.e. pretend excitement fake orgasm nonsense) while expressing your dissatisfaction, is it any wonder she is defensive?



podiumboy said:


> The last time we had sex, the other day, it went pretty much to the script I stated above. And AS SOON as it was over (aka as soon as I was done) she was like "I'M SO TIRED! I HAVE TO DO THIS, AND THAT, ETC ETC ETC.... " and began to list a whole bunch of **** she had to get done tomorrow.


As soon as it was over she felt she could talk to you her husband, about things that she finds a drag. Instead of having empathy for her you keep thinking about your sex life.



podiumboy said:


> At that point, what little hope I was holding onto for my sex life DIED. Just ****ing DIED. I couldn't care less if I never have sex with her again.





podiumboy said:


> In February, we are going on a little vacation to a resort in Mexico. It's free, clients I'm associated with through work are paying for the whole thing for a large group of their customers. It will be our first vacation on our own since our kids were born.


Lucky you.



podiumboy said:


> I'm actually dreading it. Being around a bunch of other drunk, horny couples just sounds like it will make me feel worse. While everybody else will GET DRUNK AND SCREW, best case scenario I'll get to masturbate with my wife's vagina for a few minutes and feel like a rapist.


If you weren't so determined to protect your own ego, You could probably turn this around.

That said if you want to stop feeling like a rapist, stop thinking she is just a hole.



podiumboy said:


> I'm not a cheater, I never have cheated before, but all I can say is I'm starting to see why some people do. I'm starting to see the appeal in it... and that scares me.


If you want to have a better sex life with any woman for the long term, change your mind and the sex will follow.

That said if you are done with her, drink a cup of stand up for yourself I ain't gonna whine no more and end your marital relationship with her.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Clearly, the multiple "rules" and trivialization of the experience aren't as important as initiating once a week for the same dreadful experience.

I hate to remind y'all but improving the experience takes both sides. When one side strives to make the experience as dreadful as possible that isn't likely.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Thanks for all the responses, even the one that makes me out to be an *******. I will respond more after work. 

The one thing I want to comment on right now that greatly offends me is the notion that I treat my wife life a "hole" that I put my **** in. That's simply not true, I never said anything to allude to that. My wife much more than a "hole". She is a beautiful person, inside and out. She is a perfect mother to our kids. She is a wonderful wife in every other way, she just has no feelings toward me sexually. I love her very much.

The other night after we had sex, when she immediately launched in to her to do list and complaining about how tired she was... that was not a one time thing. Her mind is always 3-4 steps ahead. She's probably usually compiling her grocery list while I'm having sex with her. That was just the straw that broke the camels back. I could literally feel something snap inside me. 

I have brought up therapy. She says we don't have the time, too busy. Life is ALWAYS busy, and there's never going to just be this magic time in our lives where things just stop. I think she thinks I'm overreacting. She says most married couples with kids never even have sex, and they certainly don't have oral sex.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Don't just bring up therapy. Find a good sex therapist that specializes in working with married couples, book an appointment, give her the date - and then go - with her or without her. At some point you have to ACT. YOU can break this dysfunctional dance if you choose to. And at this point I really think you both need some professional intervention. If she wont go with you - go alone!!!

https://www.aasect.org/referral-directory

https://www.everydayhealth.com/sexual-health/sex-therapy.aspx

Sexual Issue Driving You Crazy? - Sex Therapy, Marriage Counseling, Re...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> The one thing I want to comment on right now that greatly offends me is the notion that I treat my wife life a "hole" that I put my **** in. That's simply not true, I never said anything to allude to that. My wife much more than a "hole".


Exactly! She is much more than just a hole, so you need to get out of the mindset that you are masturbating into her vagina which makes her in that instance just a hole. You need to stop thinking that you are just masturbating into her, so you can stop feeling like a rapist (your words).


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

I say masturbating with her vagina, because the sex is very one sided. This is by her doing. This is basically what she wants me to do. She wants me to use her to get off, while she thinks about anything else. She does this because she legitimately believes this is fulfilling my need for sex. She acknowledges that I have needs and does not want to be "that wife" that doesn't put out.

We don't "make love" when we have sex. I am the one having sex with her. Sound strange? Welcome to my world!!


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

You seem to think in some kind of monster. All I want to do is make love to my wife. She does not want to have sex with me, but she knows it's unreasonable to cut me off. However, if that's the kind of sex she wants, I would rather not. 

I can't figure out why she initiates sex if she's just going to lay there and actively make an effort to not enjoy herself.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

No its not strange, and its not unusual. It is what goes on in numerous marriages. Many women do this "to meet their husbands needs - or "fulfill their marital obligations". Does not mean it is healthy or good for the relationship. If you were fine with it, it would not be a problem. But you are not fine with it. I don't think most men are. But many men decide its better than nothing and they don't want to leave the marriage - so they just accept it. My husband did just that for over 30 years. 

Decide your fate. You do have some control here - if you take it back from your wife. But it means rocking the boat - and I am not sure you have that in you. From all your posts so far - I would say you don't. So keep coming on here to vent and let off steam - or act. Your choice!! And it is a choice!!!


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

I see stories like yours all the time on here. Basically, there is a simple strategy that you should employ to break the pattern. 

First, you need to start dating your wife. That means take her out for quality adult time once a week. The dates should have variety. So vary the days you take her out and the things you do so they don't get routine and boring. 

Second, become the best version of yourself possible so that you are an attractive person. That means get into shape, be successful at work, be a good father and husband, get involved with hobbies/church/community or whatever else it is that you find meaningful. 

Third, realize that you don't have to accept her version of sex or accept what she thinks is normal as the relationship type you are going to stay in. That means express to her that you don't care if all the other couples aren't having sex or aren't doing oral, because your relationship doesn't involve outside people or their perceived norms. 

Fourth, you need to be confident. My attitude in the bedroom is that if a woman is telling me her rules, I just laugh because I know her rules don't apply to me and she'll gladly do the things I enjoy if I do everything else right in the relationship. About the only response I'd give is playfully teasing about the absurdity.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

So,
Is she putting out just to keep you from leaving/straying...
or
... is she deliberately making it an unsatisfying experience with the ultimate goal of you turning against sex altogether?


Neither is good, but there's a lot of difference in the motivation and desired end state (on her part).

Either, though, cries out for a good therapist. I agree with @mary35 ; do the homework, find a good one, make the appointment and make it not an option. If she still refuses, then you know it's time to pull chocks.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

podiumboy said:


> You seem to think in some kind of monster. All I want to do is make love to my wife. She does not want to have sex with me, but she knows it's unreasonable to cut me off. However, if that's the kind of sex she wants, I would rather not.
> 
> I can't figure out why she initiates sex if she's just going to lay there and actively make an effort to not enjoy herself.


No one thinks you are a monster - you are the defensive one. You are the one who used the phrases masturbating her vagina and feel like a rapist. And we all get it. Most of us that post on these threads have dealt on one side or the other with this very issue. What you describe is the norm for most of us. Except many woman just turn their husband away and deny all sexual contact. Your wife is taking a different approach - but not all that unusual either. But the reality is - both approaches have the same negative affect on the marital relationship. She provides you limited use of her body, however she is still turning you away emotionally and denying you a real satisfying intimate connection with her. This relieves her of the guilt - cost her little effort - and she can say she is doing her duty. That's why it is often called duty sex!!!


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

podiumboy said:


> I have brought up therapy. She says we don't have the time, too busy. Life is ALWAYS busy, and there's never going to just be this magic time in our lives where things just stop. I think she thinks I'm overreacting. She says most married couples with kids never even have sex, and they certainly don't have oral sex.


What did the therapist say to your wife assertion that most married couples with kids never have sex and certainly not oral? If the therapist didn't tell her that these things are untrue, it's time to get a decent therapist.

Yes, being a spouse and parent involves a lot of work and time, but the reality is that parents all over the world are having sex when the kids are sleeping, watching Barney, at school, playing in the yard, or at friends and family members houses. Where does she think siblings come from? The stork? :wink2:

Also, I think it might be a good idea to consider telling her you don't want to have sex with her and why. The next time she initiates duty sex, remove her hand from your penis, explain that passionless duty sex has no appeal for you, but thank her for the offer, and then go on with your day/night.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

And for the record - she is not actively making an effort to not enjoy. Most woman have to actively make an effort TO enjoy it. She is simply choosing to make no effort - except allow you to use her vagina hole to get off. It may not be a conscious choice on her part - but just as all of your actions are a choice - so are hers. And right now - you both are making some pretty crappy choices concerning your relationship.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Actually the two reasons above are complementary, not exclusive.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Mary, I agree with everything you've said. I will definitely look into different therapists in my area. This cannot go on unfixed. We also clearly don't have the tools to fix this ourselves. 

One thing my wife said that annoyed me is that I watch too much porn and have an unrealistic expectation for how sex is supposed to be. I don't agree with that. Porn is an entirely different thing. I sometimes accept my fate, and then I read stories of couples who got their sex life back and then some, and it triggers me. Lots of times, this happens after one person commits infidelity and then gets their mojo back, which sounds horrifying for me. 

Sometimes I wish I could just kill my sex drive. Eliminate it completely! Then at least we'd be on the same page!


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This may just be how she is and there may be nothing you an do to change it. Your move.

Leave. Cheat. Live with a lousy sex life. 

All bad choices, but I expect they are the only ones open to you.


Its possible you can change things, but it sounds like you have tried for a long time without success. She seems so bad that I doubt you can ever have a good sex life with her. 

Since the sex is bad, I suggest that you at least turn her down in the future. Tell her that you have decided that you want passion, not just sex. If she isn't interested in passion, that's OK, but that you are no longer interested in boring sex.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

podiumboy said:


> Mary, I agree with everything you've said. I will definitely look into different therapists in my area. This cannot go on unfixed. We also clearly don't have the tools to fix this ourselves.
> 
> One thing my wife said that annoyed me is that I watch too much porn and have an unrealistic expectation for how sex is supposed to be. I don't agree with that. Porn is an entirely different thing. I sometimes accept my fate, and then I read stories of couples who got their sex life back and then some, and it triggers me. Lots of times, this happens after one person commits infidelity and then gets their mojo back, which sounds horrifying for me.
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Stop having any sex with her. Tell her you refuse to have any sex until the two of you go to a sex therapist. Then only do what the sex therapist tells you to do. The first few sessions the therapist will tell you not to have sex. For you guys, won't be difficult to comply. The therapist will assign "homework" exercises for you to do together. Non-sexual. Working up to what is hopefully mutually satisfying sex. Until your wife agrees to go see the therapist and do the homework, no sex for either of you.

When you refuse to have any sex with your wife unless it is mutually pleasurable, your wife will change how she sees you. Even mine did, and my wife is as sex-negative as anyone. No, we still don't have sex. But she sees me differently. Hopefully when your wife sees you differently she will see sex differently and want to make it good for herself so she can have some with you.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

I appreciate everyone's advice. I agree that we need to put sex on the back burner for now, get into counseling, and find out what my wife's issues really are. She claims that she wishes she could get her libido back, she has researched it, etc. My takeaway from that is that she doesn't find me attractive anymore, doesn't know why and feels guilty about it. I think it'd be beneficial to find out what her issues with myself and our relationship are, and see what can be done. It may be too late. Maybe the thing that would make her most happy is to be able to break free from me and find someone who will truly satisfy her needs. I don't want that, but I must be ready for that possibility. 

What I don't want is for this to continue. I don't want her resentment to grow anymore. Whatever I've done to get her to this point, I would like to acknowledge the problem and solve it if possible. I think I'm a good person, a good father, a good provider, and even a good husband. But maybe I'm not. 

This has made me realize that maybe we have bigger issues than her giving me duty sex. This makes me very sad. I don't want to lose her, and I definitely don't want to be a weekend Dad or something. I feel like she is headed down the road that leads many women to have an affair. I'd rather not go through that in addition to everything else. I'm going to talk to her about it tonight and see if there's somebody in particular she'd like us to see.

Serious question: In these situations, where the woman is the one who is unhappy, is it best to see a female counselor? Or does it not matter?


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

The important thing is to find one you click with right now and who will hold your feet to the fire. If your wife gets on board and then doesn't cllick with the one you have, you can either change or help her find her own that she does click with. 

Podiumboy - if I were you I would do the research and make a list of some available in your area. Then call them and describe the problem and ask them if they have had a high success rate with couple like you and your wife. Then make an appointment with the one that impresses you the most. And keep the names of your 2nd and 3rd choice. Once you have an appointment - and have met at least one time with them on your own and feel comfortable with them - then make another appointment and invite your wife. It will make a huge statement to your wife how serious you are about this that you would go to all the effort to find a therapist. And be committed to getting yourself help - even if your wife will not participate. You may have to try a couple of therapists to find a good fit.

Your wife will probably complain about whoever you go to and tell you she does not feel comfortable with them. She has already basically told you she does not want to do therapy. She will probably try to get you to stop going and will tell you she is not going back - if she even goes one time. This is why its important that you find someone you think is good and that you click with. Your wife may fight this - but you are the one that is going to have to be insistent that you are seeking help - with or without her - and then do it. 

Really - its your only hope, cause what you are doing now is not working and continuing as is - is insane. Neither of you are really happy. And if your wife never gets on board - if you work on fixing your issues, you will be better off should the marriage not work out - and you will have done everything in your power to try to make it work. 

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but again, you have no control over what your wife chooses to do or not do. You can only work on you, fix your issues and try to be the best you can be. 

Take the lead on getting the therapist. Show your wife just how serious and unhappy you are with the way things are now. If you don't - then come to terms with you life as it is - cause it most likely won't be changing.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

podiumboy said:


> I've posted several things around here about how my wife has an extremely low sex drive (She's 31, I'm 35, 2 kids 4 and 6). The #1 thing people always say is that I need to try to make sex more enjoyable for her. Focus on her pleasure. Focus on her orgasm, not your own. I would... gladly. Except, she won't even let me do anything to try to make it more enjoyable for her. She has SO MANY RULES!!! Foreplay has become a ****ing joke... basically just a quick, laborious hand job to get me hard, and then she just bends over and away I go. That's how it is 90% of the time. Absolutely NO ORAL, either way. Not allowed to touch her vagina with my hands, or really even look at it. Recently, she has made me aware that she doesn't even like me to touch her boobs, and now swats me away. Okay... so that doesn't leave a whole lot. She sometimes makes some sounds, but mostly she's quiet and stoic. I don't have a premature ejaculation problem, per se, but after a few minutes I make myself finish because I can tell it's going absolutely nowhere for her.
> 
> You may ask... "Why are you continuing to have sex with her?" I suppose just to keep the peace. I genuinely don't want to have that kind of sex anymore. We only have sex when she initiates, about once a week. She actually gets pissed if I refuse her. I seriously haven't initiated in months, because I seriously DO NOT ****ING WANT TO!!! I can't believe it's come to this. I love sex. I'm a very sexual person. I'd have sex every single day if I could, and we used to. I realize that having kids changes everything, but this is getting ridiculous. She even stated that she would like to go out for a date night with me without the pressure of having sex at the end of the night. So we're doing that this weekend. I'm not saying I can't have fun with my wife without having sex, but we have an overnight babysitter and all...
> 
> ...




- After having two beautiful kids, her hormones are probably off and might require meds to get her back to normal. 


- Plus there's the weight gain, making her feel unsexy, therefore, she doesn't want sex nearly as much. 


- Then there's raising the 2 kids, which is a full time job in itself and draining.


- She might be worried having sex will get her pregnant again.



You sound just like me. I too love sex and could have it every day. My wifee is very LD just like yours. Welcome to the club.


I would buy yourself a really great sex toy (hundreds $$$) to get it out of your system, like I have done. This way you never pester your LD wife for sex anymore.


Not much you can do with a LD wife, not much at all. Many here in your situation. Feel for yah.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

podiumboy said:


> I've posted several things around here about how my wife has an extremely low sex drive (She's 31, I'm 35, 2 kids 4 and 6). The #1 thing people always say is that I need to try to make sex more enjoyable for her. Focus on her pleasure. Focus on her orgasm, not your own. I would... gladly. Except, she won't even let me do anything to try to make it more enjoyable for her. She has SO MANY RULES!!! Foreplay has become a ****ing joke... basically just a quick, laborious hand job to get me hard, and then she just bends over and away I go. That's how it is 90% of the time. Absolutely NO ORAL, either way. Not allowed to touch her vagina with my hands, or really even look at it. Recently, she has made me aware that she doesn't even like me to touch her boobs, and now swats me away. Okay... so that doesn't leave a whole lot. She sometimes makes some sounds, but mostly she's quiet and stoic. I don't have a premature ejaculation problem, per se, but after a few minutes I make myself finish because I can tell it's going absolutely nowhere for her.


That first paragraph is exactly, to the letter, how sex with my ex wife wound up. Probably the last 4-5 years with her, that ^ was sex for me. It's actually uncanny, your description, and I think I had a flashback :/

Your situation may be different from how mine was (I hope, for your sake), but it all made sense when the marriage was over.

Basically, she was no longer attracted to me. Did not view me as a husband, let alone a lover. Didn't want me touching her, NO kissing, almost always sex from behind (ostensibly so she didn't have to look at me?), minimal foreplay, no oral (she couldn't on me, and didn't want me to do it to her). I trained myself to finish in 2 minutes or so, as well, for pretty much the same reason as you.

Oddly enough, though, she would often initiate our sex, even though it was as described. I still don't know if it was her fulfilling a 'duty', or if she did actually want to have sex. Probably a little bit of both.

Prior to this beginning, our sex life was pretty decent. Nothing outstanding, just normal.

Long story short, she no longer felt any attraction for me. And no, my body did not change, no weight gain, and I was in my late 20's, early 30's when this began to happen, so I wasn't exactly "old", either.

She just had no sexual or romantic feelings for me any more. So although she still wanted sex, the whole thing was entirely minimized to where I basically became, for lack of a better term, a dildo for her.

*ETA - she was the one who changed throughout the course of our relationship and marriage. But that was also part of the problem. For example, she took a (rather unhealthy, if you ask me) interest in getting fit. Gym membership, running, working out at home. A definite obsession. I did not join her in this pursuit. There were other things. Basically, she viewed me as being stagnant, and thus, the relationship. We still did lots of things (concerts at least once a month, travel, etc.).

In a nutshell, she "evolved", whereas, in her view, I did not. And her newly found interests did not match mine. Therefore, she grew apart from me, no doubt. Was it my fault? Hardly. Could I have joined her in her fitness pursuit? Absolutely. But that's not my thing. I tried, and had zero interest, but at least I tried.

By the time we were done, she was so far away from me it wasn't funny. I wasn't at fault, and neither was she. C'est la vie.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> Stop having any sex with her. Tell her you refuse to have any sex until the two of you go to a sex therapist.


You should join a monastery too, since you will be having NO SEX that way at all. :frown2:


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Hire a maid service to come in a clean the house.
then tell her, those 5 hours of free time you just bought her have to be use to get laid.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Thanks to all the replies, I'm getting a lot of really good advice here. Alexm, I wanted to respond to you directly but can't figure out how to quote people on the iPhone version lol. I'm glad to know that I'm not alone! 

I agree that my wife is no longer attracted to me. She has argued this with me a lot, but it has to be true. If she were attracted to me, she'd probably occasionally want to look at me while having sex. I agree also that I think my wife does enjoy our passionless sex to some degree, even if she is mainly just doing it for me. What kills me is that if we were to get divorced, you better believe the next guy would be getting all the things I wish I could have with my wife.

My life has also been pretty stagnant. I'm still doing the same job I was doing basically when we started dating, but with more money and thus more responsibility. But overall my life has not changed that much in the past 11 years. Meanwhile, she has gone back to school and is going for a career in education. She's on her last year of college, and it's going extremely well for her. I think that this might have something to do with it. She's broadening her horizons, getting new perspectives... basically all the stuff I did in college when I was young, before I met her. 

I don't know... she seems to think getting a divorce would be the worst thing ever. I'm not so sure anymore. She could find somebody more like minded that she was attracted to. I think she would enjoy it more than she thinks she would. We don't hate each other at all, she's just evolved beyond me to a certain degree. This is about so much more than her not wanting sex, I'm starting to realize.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> The #1 thing people always say is that I need to try to make sex more enjoyable for her. Focus on her pleasure. Focus on her orgasm, not your own. I would... gladly. Except, she won't even let me do anything to try to make it more enjoyable for her. She has SO MANY RULES!!! Foreplay has become a ****ing joke... basically just a quick, laborious hand job to get me hard, and then she just bends over and away I go.


 @podiumboy let's assume for arguments sake that your wife has issues with her self image and it makes her uncomfortable for you to see or touch her. How would you work around that to make her feel more comfortable and more likely for her to enjoy intimate time together? 

Now let's assume for arguments sake that your wife has autism and sensory issues that makes it painful or uncomfortable for you to touch her. How would you work around that to make her feel more comfortable and more likely for her to enjoy intimate time together? 

Now let's assume for arguments sake that your wife had an abusive partner in her past. Being intimate makes her experience anxiety as a result. How would you work around that to make her feel more comfortable and more likely for her to enjoy intimate time together? 

Now let's assume for arguments sake that your wife has medical issues as a result of a problematic delivery during her last childbirth. A semi-prolapsed uterus and fibroid tumors now makes intimacy painful for her. How would you work around that to make her feel more comfortable and more likely for her to enjoy intimate time together? 

Now let's assume for arguments sake that your wife is just not that interested in sex, and arguments about this in your marriage make her feel inadequate and difficult to enjoy intimacy. Being intimate makes her experience anxiety as a result. How would you work around that to make her feel more comfortable and more likely for her to enjoy intimate time together? 

...my point being is that you really need to find a way to communicate better with your wife. While initially you will have to lean into the discomfort of her not wanting to talk about it, but *you should spend all your time thinking about what needs to happen to make "communication" more comfortable and perhaps even enjoyable for the two of you.* Improvements in intimacy will naturally follow after that. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Talker67 said:


> You should join a monastery too, since you will be having NO SEX that way at all. :frown2:


But "no sex" is the whole point. No sex means his wife can't pretend that their marriage is fine. She can't pretend that she is fulfilling her wifely duties. She can't tell herself that all he cares about is getting his rocks off and he doesn't care about her. She can still tell herself she is exhausted from raising small children (which likely is true), but she can't tell herself that she is making this giant sacrifice for the family and her husband doesn't seem to be making much of a sacrifice.

Eliminating sex will motivate change. Maybe @podiumboy will decide he doesn't want a sexless marriage and he will leave. Maybe his wife will decide SHE doesn't want a sexless marriage and will consider IC or ST to deal with the issue. Eliminating sex changes the dynamic between them. The current dynamic is not working for @podiumboy. He needs to change it up.

Accepting lousy sex sends many strong messages to your partner. Almost all of them bad. Refusing to accept lousy sex sends very different messages to your partner. When your sex life stinks, and arguing about it doesn't help, and begging for it doesn't help, the HD needs to send different messages. "No more sex until it is better for YOU" is a very powerful message.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Talker67 said:


> You should join a monastery too, since you will be having NO SEX that way at all. :frown2:


He's really not having sex right now, as it is. As he said, (even if you think it was vulgar) he's basically masturbating with a real person.

The thing is, the longer he continues to accept it (and by "accept", I mean actually continue to do it), the less likely she is to make any changes.

When I was going through a down period of sex with my wife, I started turning it down every now and again. She was rejecting me fairly often, and her idea of initiation was either "let's go" or to simply be in bed naked, waiting for me to do... anything. Saying "let's go" is okay - once in a while. Hell, even getting into bed naked is okay, too. But not when that's 100% of the time, either of those things. In each case, I was still expected to start sex, foreplay, whatever. I was still the one doing the initial "work", and it became tiresome, TBH.

It was then that she realized (mainly because I told her...) that men are more sexually complex than she assumed. For whatever reason, she seems to have spent her entire adult life thinking that we're all just ready to go at the drop of a hat, or whenever a woman presents themselves. I mean, we are, moreso than the average woman, but nonetheless, we aren't dogs, and sex isn't a treat.

So I stopped saying yes, every single time, and that got to her.

The irony was that she finally learned exactly how I had felt every time she had rejected me for seemingly no reason, and often quite flippantly. And further, how it made her feel unattractive, unwanted, undesirable.

But the gist of it is, many women go through life thinking as my wife did - that we're ready to go on a whim (their whim), and that we're dogs looking for treats. And that any old treat will do. I mean, the dog gets just as excited over a cookie as he does over a piece of steak, right? This seems to be how OP's wife is treating sex.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

alexm said:


> He's really not having sex right now, as it is. As he said, (even if you think it was vulgar) he's basically masturbating with a real person.
> 
> The thing is, the longer he continues to accept it (and by "accept", I mean actually continue to do it), the less likely she is to make any changes.
> 
> ...


Hence the phrase "Getting lucky"


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

samyeagar said:


> Hence the phrase "Getting lucky"


Funny you bring that up! My wife (before she was my wife) always used euphemisms like that in regards to sex. Honestly, they have their place, and I may have a stick up my ass, but I can't stand them within a relationship - a serious one at that.

Maybe I read too much into people's words, but it's often a good indicator of how they really feel about a subject, like sex. It's often a bit of a Freudian slip, as well I think.

To me, "getting lucky" is best saved for something like a hook-up or something casual, and although I'm not super serious about sex, I find I resent it being referred to as something so casual and for my benefit, while in a relationship.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

alexm said:


> Funny you bring that up! My wife (before she was my wife) always used euphemisms like that in regards to sex. Honestly, they have their place, and I may have a stick up my ass, but I can't stand them within a relationship - a serious one at that.
> 
> Maybe I read too much into people's words, but it's often a good indicator of how they really feel about a subject, like sex. It's often a bit of a Freudian slip, as well I think.
> 
> To me, "getting lucky" is best saved for something like a hook-up or something casual, and although I'm not super serious about sex, I find I resent it being referred to as something so casual and for my benefit, while in a relationship.


Yep. I totally understand how you feel, and my wife still says things like that from time to time, and it's an instant turn off for me. Not so much the particular words, because I certainly don't need or even want the mushy, super serious, romantic "making luuuuurrrve" wording, but the implication that it is for my benefit...probably the fastest way to make me not want to have sex. I absolutely need to feel the mutual and responding desire, otherwise it gets to be a whole lot of mental work working around it, and sometimes, just not worth the effort.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

samyeagar said:


> Yep. I totally understand how you feel, and my wife still says things like that from time to time, and it's an instant turn off for me. Not so much the particular words, because I certainly don't need or even want the mushy, super serious, romantic "making luuuuurrrve" wording, but the implication that it is for my benefit...probably the fastest way to make me not want to have sex. I absolutely need to feel the mutual and responding desire, otherwise it gets to be a whole lot of mental work working around it, and sometimes, just not worth the effort.


Yep, that's it. I'm glad I'm not the only one, lol.

At some point a few years ago, I asked my wife to stop saying things like that, and she actually did. I explained why and she understood. She's a good woman!

Everybody has different terms for it, I'm just not very receptive to it being seen as something I'm "lucky" to get.

Moreover, it shows me that my wife, herself, didn't view sex as a mutual act, rather as something she "gives" to somebody, even if that view was subconscious.

Ironically, I find the term a rather negative one for both of us. It's most often used by men when they "get" sex from a woman (I got lucky last night). Or by women in regards to "giving" sex to men (He got lucky last night). In other words, it's not equal, not mutual. It makes it sound transactional.

Even the word "luck" implies that it's something that doesn't happen very often, or the stars alligned for it to happen.

I'd much prefer my sex life is not referred to being based on luck, real or imagined.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

alexm said:


> Yep, that's it. I'm glad I'm not the only one, lol.
> 
> At some point a few years ago, I asked my wife to stop saying things like that, and she actually did. I explained why and she understood. She's a good woman!
> 
> ...


Hypocritically enough, every now and then my wife will throw it out there asking me if she's going to get lucky, and that doesn't bother me  That makes sense though in the context of my own sexual response because that is her showing an active desire for herself.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

alexm said:


> Funny you bring that up! My wife (before she was my wife) always used euphemisms like that in regards to sex. Honestly, they have their place, and I may have a stick up my ass, but I can't stand them within a relationship - a serious one at that.
> 
> Maybe I read too much into people's words, but it's often a good indicator of how they really feel about a subject, like sex. It's often a bit of a Freudian slip, as well I think.
> 
> To me, "getting lucky" is best saved for something like a hook-up or something casual, and although I'm not super serious about sex, I find I resent it being referred to as something so casual and for my benefit, while in a relationship.


It shouldn't be up to luck to be intimate with your wife.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

It shouldn't require luck to be intimate with your wife, it's true. And yet, here we are. Thousands if not millions of men all over the world are in this same position. One thing I didn't realize until I started researching my problem is just how widespread this issue is. The older men warned me when I was young, and I just ignored them. I thought "well my gf/fiancé/wife (for the first few years of M) is down for sex even more than I am, no way I'll end up like those guys!" Now we've almost been married 10 years, have 2 young kids, and both have busy lives... and no real sex life to speak of.

My wife is a busy person, I get that. I honestly don't expect sex more than 1-2 times per week. It's the fact that there is no passion or desire or even a willingness to try to connect with me while having sex. Part of the problem is she can't get out of her own head long enough to relax. 

Ugh, whatever. When I started this thread I was having a bad day with this. Now, 2 days later, I'm back to accepting the way things are. Bad sex or No sex. I will choose no sex. The next she tries to initiate sex, and takes her clothes off like she's at a doctors office, I will just say no thanks.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> Hypocritically enough, every now and then my wife will throw it out there asking me if she's going to get lucky, and that doesn't bother me  That makes sense though in the context of my own sexual response because that is her showing an active desire for herself.


I agree, this is a fun and cute thing to say.

But if they say "are you glad you got lucky last night?" or something like that....ugh, no. Just no. Don't word it like that if you are implying I'm the only one who benefited from the sex. 

In sam's quoted example, it is not implied that she is the only one who will benefit, instead she is just trying to flirt and be fun and is expressing her desire to have sex with him. Its just a cute way to initiate and isn't literal.

But "are you glad you got lucky last night?" does imply that it is literal. Just, no.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

The euphemism my wife almost always uses is "fooling around." I don't take this any particular way although it seems kind of juvenile at times. 

On one occasion she used "get lucky." We were on a date (well into marriage mind you), and I was really hamming up the romance. At one point she looked me dead in the eye and said "keep this up and you might even get lucky tonight." 

I could have taken that as a quid pro quo--you romance me and I'll service you. But she communicated very effectively that she was truly enjoying the evening and bringing it to its logical conclusion would be the ultimate for her and, as such, she would make it so for me. In this case it was perfect. I'll never forget the delightfully mischievous twinkle she had in her eye when she said it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The euphemism my wife almost always uses is "fooling around." I don't take this any particular way although it seems kind of juvenile at times.
> 
> On one occasion she used "get lucky." We were on a date (well into marriage mind you), and I was really hamming up the romance. At one point she looked me dead in the eye and said *"keep this up and you might even get lucky tonight."*
> 
> I could have taken that as a quid pro quo--you romance me and I'll service you. But she communicated very effectively that she was truly enjoying the evening and bringing it to its logical conclusion would be the ultimate for her and, as such, she would make it so for me. In this case it was perfect. I'll never forget the delightfully mischievous twinkle she had in her eye when she said it.


In those circumstances that would work well on me, too. Cute, playful, doesn't actually imply that you are the only one benefiting it just implies that you were turning her on. :laugh:


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

podiumboy said:


> She says most married couples with kids never even have sex, and they certainly don't have oral sex.


We actually were way more Sexually active when we had 4 kids in the house. This is simply delusional thinking. Just wait 20 years and then magically we will be back to a married life. This is Abandoning the marriage once the goal of getting kids is achieved. It is cold and cruel .


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

samyeagar said:


> Hypocritically enough, every now and then my wife will throw it out there asking me if she's going to get lucky, and that doesn't bother me  That makes sense though in the context of my own sexual response because that is her showing an active desire for herself.


Context is key!


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

OP here with an update. We went on our date last night. I went into the night just expecting no sex whatsoever, just have a good time. And I have to say... that was like the best date we've had in a long time. We both had a great time. Lots of hand holding, kissing, other physical touching like leg rubbing, butt touching, etc. Great conversation. We were just... CONNECTED. Then we get home, and despite everything, I am still not planning on having sex. She said she wanted a sexless date night sometime, right? Kids are at the grandparents, and all I'm thinking is how we're going to get an entire full night of uninterrupted sleep to ourselves. So I lay down in bed, then a few minutes later she comes out of the bathroom and says "Well do you wanna do it tonight or in the morning?" And I just reply "nope!" I told her I was just going to give her the no sex date she asked for, and she just accepted it. We cuddled, talked, made out a little, and then just went to sleep.

It was a great night. I feel better about our marriage than I have in awhile. I realize now that our relationship is very much intact, but we are just mismatched sexually. I think I'm going to keep this no sex thing going for awhile and see how things improve. When I think about it, the only real thing we argue about is sex. It felt good to just end the night on a high note, instead of ending the night with lackluster duty sex. I'm not saying we'll never have sex again, but I'm going to suggest we take a couple months off and just see what happens.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

You passively rely upon your wife to initiate sex once a week, and are now planning to avoid having sex for two months straight.

Why are you so determined to ensure you will have a sexless marriage?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Personal said:


> You passively rely upon your wife to initiate sex once a week, and are now planning to avoid having sex for two months straight.
> 
> Why are you so determined to ensure you will have a sexless marriage?


He drank her Kool aid: A near sexless marriage is normal, happy and good. 

More Kool aid: a date night that ends with no sex (kids even out of the house) is a happy event.

Isn't it kinda like sleeping over with a roommate?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

podiumboy said:


> We only have sex when she initiates, about once a week. She actually gets pissed if I refuse her. I seriously haven't initiated in months, because I seriously DO NOT ****ING WANT TO!!!





podiumboy said:


> I think I'm going to keep this no sex thing going for awhile and see how things improve.





podiumboy said:


> I'm not saying we'll never have sex again, but I'm going to suggest we take a couple months off and just see what happens.





podiumboy said:


> I watch porn probably 5 out of 7 days a week.





podiumboy said:


> My wife has no issue with my porn watching, though she herself finds it disgusting. She has a low sex drive, I have a high sex drive, and if I did not masturbate and only had my release during intercourse (once a week usually), I'd go crazy.


1. Claims he has a high sex drive while claiming his wife doesn't.

2. Only has sex with his wife once a week because she initiates.

3. Masturbates to pornography five to seven times a week.

4. Refuses to initiate sex at all for months, because he doesn't ****ing want to.

5. Goes on a date with his wife, then decides he wants to stop having sex with her for two months straight.

6. Then wonders why his sex life sux.

:smthumbup:


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Yeah yeah... I know... 

This isn't my ideal situation. My ideal situation would be that I was banging her right now instead of typing this. 

My desire to have a healthy sex life with my wife is trumped by my desire to not have one sided, lifeless, passionless sex. To not feel like a rapist. To not feel my wife recoil in disgust when I try to initiate even the most basic forms of foreplay that are commonplace among high school kids. To not be a groveling little *****, begging and pleading for whatever little crumbs of a sex life she is willing to leave me. No thank you, I'd rather masturbate.

That being said, I feel like last night my wife and I actually did connect quite well. You weren't there, you don't know. It actually felt the same as our pre-kids dates used to feel, only we are older and wiser (aka we know our limits with alcohol). And she did have every intention of having sex when we got home, it was I who turned it down. I turned it down because we had just had a perfect evening together, and I didn't want to ruin it. I realize that my logic is not normal, some might say unhealthy. All I know is we had a great night together, and it made me realize that I was letting this sex business get in the way of our happiness. I don't know if my wife and I will ever have good sex again... it's kind of unlikely, actually, unless she magically becomes sexually attracted to me again out of nowhere. 

I'm just saying I want to make the best of my situation. I'm married to a great woman. She has a heart of gold, would do anything for anybody. She's a top notch mother, I couldn't raise our kids without her. She's very beautiful, out of my league, and honestly a guy like me (average Joe) has no business banging a woman that hot! And she really is a great wife in so many ways, except sexually. And I'm a very sexual person. I take her lack of interest in sex personally, as a sign that she doesn't love me anymore, etc. Lately I have been worrying that we have more issues than sex. After last night, I realized that this sex problem is THE disease, not the symptom. When I mentally took sex out of the equation, I was able to connect with my wife again. 

Not sure what this means for the future, but in the end, I guess I just am happy that we're able to still go out on successful date nights. We're already planning another one in a couple weeks, and I plan on keeping it in my pants that night too!


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Personal said:


> 1. Claims he has a high sex drive while claiming his wife doesn't.
> 
> 2. Only has sex with his wife once a week because she initiates.
> 
> ...


Boy, you really don't like me, do you? :grin2:

You have no idea what it's like to be in my shoes. I don't know much about you, but have you ever been in a situation where your partner does not enjoy having sex with you? Where they don't find you sexually attractive? Where they lower the quality of your lovemaking to the point where you feel pathetic for even accepting it? The only reason she "initiates" is because she still loves me, and doesn't want to be a wife that doesn't put out. It literally does nothing for her, and it's not because my "skills" are poor. She has no interest in me taking the time to try to make sex enjoyable for her. It's strictly for my benefit. GET IN, GET OFF, GET OUT. Would you enjoy that?

Also, I masturbated to porn even when I was getting laid like tile, 7 days a week. Most of my friends are the same way. I said I do that 5 out of 7 days, usually. I don't only masturbate to porn, either. I also have some sexy/nude pictures of my wife that she took for me back in the day, prior to the kids. I'd like some more up to date photos, because I still think she's very sexy, but that'll never happen. Point is, I don't think my porn watching is unhealthy at all. 

I can't wait to see what terrible ways you twist my words next time. Countless people on this board have told me to not accept duty sex, and that's exactly what I'm doing.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

It’s not that he doesn’t like you. He just sees through you and thinks you’re full of crap. Can’t say I disagree. I’m pretty convinced your situation is mostly of your making. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

How is this my doing? I am not perfect, but I'm a pretty good man, husband and father. I haven't done anything awful to make my wife repulsed be me. I'm not ugly, I have good hygiene, etc. I didn't ask for my wife to just randomly lose interest in me sexually. I've tried talking to her about it, she doesn't know why. Her actions show me that she still loves me very much, but she just has lost the ability to feel sexually attracted to me.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

It’s all been pointed out to you already. You just don’t want to see it. You’re too busy being defensive and protecting your ego. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

podiumboy said:


> How is this my doing? I am not perfect, but I'm a pretty good man, husband and father. I haven't done anything awful to make my wife repulsed be me. I'm not ugly, I have good hygiene, etc. I didn't ask for my wife to just randomly lose interest in me sexually. I've tried talking to her about it, she doesn't know why. Her actions show me that she still loves me very much, but she just has lost the ability to feel sexually attracted to me.


Here's a hint from the Root Cause Analysis department.

I believe your view point. 100%. You're only missing one key point. 

Why?

What would cause a happily married healthy and happy woman to hate sex this much?


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

I don't have an ego, I have a nice self depreciating sense of humor. I readily will admit that my wife no longer is attracted to me. I don't believe for a minute that her sex drive has been depleted at 31 years old. 

I'm sorry, I think I must be missing something you're all telling me to do. Go to counseling? I'll bring that up sometime. I was just trying to share with you people that I feel I just had a breakthrough, that my wife actually does seem to like ME, just not sex with me. That actually does make me feel better.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

podiumboy said:


> Countless people on this board have told me to not accept duty sex, and that's exactly what I'm doing.


Right, but don't accept no sex, either.

It's a tricky situation, to be sure. Many of us, myself included, have been in similar scenarios.

Personally, I think by giving up for a few months, you're probably going to shoot yourself in the foot. This will not have the effect on your wife that you may hope it does. She will, in all likelihood, thoroughly enjoy this period of no sex, no talking about sex, no expecting sex, etc. Yes, the possibility exists that she won't, either, but from the sounds of it, this is exactly what she wants.

If I were in your shoes, I would be at the point where your wife needs a come to jesus moment, courtesy of you. Where you stand up for yourself and tell her that this is not the marriage you want, deserve, or will stand for. That there is clearly an issue that is impacting this otherwise great marriage, and that she needs to recognize it AS WELL AS deal with it. By going to her doctor, telling him/her that her sex drive is basically zero, and figuring out what can be done.

Yes, the rest of the marriage may be great, but - your wife is forcing this on you. It's how SHE feels about the matter, so too damn bad for you, suck it up.

Literally all this could take is a visit to her doctor, but she's dug her heels in so deep that she won't even do that. What does that tell you about how she feels about your needs? She won't take an hour out of her day to talk to a professional about something that may be entirely fixable, and easily so?

What it tells the rest of us is that she doesn't care about your needs, and that she's adamant about this - despite your pleas to the contrary.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

podiumboy said:


> How is this my doing? I am not perfect, but I'm a pretty good man, husband and father. I haven't done anything awful to make my wife repulsed be me. I'm not ugly, I have good hygiene, etc. I didn't ask for my wife to just randomly lose interest in me sexually. I've tried talking to her about it, she doesn't know why. Her actions show me that she still loves me very much, but she just has lost the ability to feel sexually attracted to me.


Right, and it's likely not your fault - or hers.

But whatever is happening, she doesn't want to have sex with you for some reason and you need to get to the bottom of it.

My ex wife also lost sexual attraction for me at one point, and it never recovered. We had sex in much the same way you're currently having sex with your wife (just a little more frequently, as my ex wife had a sex drive, just not for me).

Why did she lose sexual attraction to me? Damned if I know. She just... did. Not sure she knew why, either.

Look, I still think it's a hormonal thing, and possibly fixable if she'd just go see her doctor. Hormones change over time, or after kids.

I think you're spending too much time blaming yourself for this. That it's you she's not attracted to. While that might play a small part in it - having been together as long as you have, it's not abnormal - I don't think it's the whole story.

Let me put it this way - if she were single, and did not want to be alone, she'd probably be seeing her doctor, or otherwise trying to get to the bottom of her sexual drive issue, knowing full well that most prospective partners would expect a normal sex life.

With you, unfortunately, she knows (or assumes, anyway) that you ain't going anywhere - so there's no fire to light under her ass about this. Spending the next couple of months giving her what she wants is only going to cement this idea in her head.


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## Where there's a will (Feb 10, 2014)

Have to agree that this sounds hormonal. It is not possible to instil her desire for you through good works, you have ably demonstrated the myth of date nights. She needs to sort herself out and she needs to at least to be able to understand that the marriage is very one sided. The old problem of defining reality through emotions has kicked in for her rather than willingly loving her husband. The only route is probably a wake up call of you taking legal advice but you have to be prepared for a wife that may be unwilling to save a marriage to a great guy like you clearly are.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

alexm said:


> Right, but don't accept no sex, either.
> 
> It's a tricky situation, to be sure. *Many of us, myself included, have been in similar scenarios.
> 
> ...


I thought I'd put in bold the parts the parts that stood out to me and damn near did it all.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Malaise said:


> I thought I'd put in bold the parts the parts that stood out to me and damn near did it all.


What? The rest was just garbage then? :grin2:


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

alexm said:


> Right, and it's likely not your fault - or hers.
> 
> But whatever is happening, she doesn't want to have sex with you for some reason and you need to get to the bottom of it.
> 
> ...


No, if she were single she would be squeezing herself into a sexy, back cocktail dress with her boobs flowing out, painting her toenails bright red and strapping on stripper heals that she can barely walk in and would blow her date in the driveway and the end of the evening if the babysitter was still awake when they got back to her place.

Her hormones are fine and she is likely a perfectly healthy 31 year old woman.

Living a life of kids, bills, household chores and daily family life has lead her to lose all sexual attraction and desire for Podium.

Once she is single and getting hit on and taken out by single men, her sex drive will come roaring back in like a tidal wave.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I also agree that the sexual moratorium will only solidify and institutionalize her lack of desire for you.

She will simply see you as a less and less sexual being.


The only way that a "break" will have any effect is if you moved out, hit the gym like a madman, got a new wardrobe and hairstyle etc and started dating, younger, prettier women.

That MIGHT give her a wake up cal and it might stimulate her competitive spirit and might spark some kind of instinctive competitive desire.

But it might just as easily hammer the final nails in the marriage coffin.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Geez, you know how to make a guy feel good don't ya? Lol

I'm sure you're right. I've said all along the only thing that will bring back her sex drive is another man. Sad but true. Maybe I should bring this up to her? I completely agree that since she is a healthy 31 year old woman that there is nothing wrong with her sex drive at all. 

The thing is, when we went out on our date, she got really dressed up. Hair done, makeup done right, sexy outfit... she looked ****ing sexy. I made sure she knew it too. But I realize that for her, compliments about her looks probably mean more coming from anybody else than they do coming from me.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Just to state for the record, I think she looks hot all the time, not just when she got dressed up for date night. I tell her all the time. The thing is, she also calls me pet names like "handsome" and "sexy", and even gives me the occasional butt slap.

Ugh... why is this so difficult!!!?


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

podiumboy said:


> It was a great night. I feel better about our marriage than I have in awhile. I realize now that our relationship is very much intact, but we are just mismatched sexually. I think I'm going to keep this no sex thing going for awhile and see how things improve. When I think about it, the only real thing we argue about is sex. It felt good to just end the night on a high note, instead of ending the night with lackluster duty sex. I'm not saying we'll never have sex again, but I'm going to suggest we take a couple months off and just see what happens.


Lather, rinse, and repeat

And the dysfunctional Dance continues...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

podiumboy said:


> Geez, you know how to make a guy feel good don't ya? Lol
> 
> I'm sure you're right. I've said all along the only thing that will bring back her sex drive is another man. Sad but true. Maybe I should bring this up to her? I completely agree that since she is a healthy 31 year old woman that there is nothing wrong with her sex drive at all.
> 
> The thing is, when we went out on our date, she got really dressed up. Hair done, makeup done right, sexy outfit... she looked ****ing sexy. I made sure she knew it too. But I realize that for her, compliments about her looks probably mean more coming from anybody else than they do coming from me.


No you should *NOT* bring up another male with her!!

That will make you look even more weak and supplicating and she will lose what little amount of sexual generosity that she has for you now and you will become truly celibate!

However YOU can become a different man yourself. And hopefully you can become a man she would want to have sex with. (become the man she would have an affair with) 

I am sure that Athol Kay's 'Married Man Sex Life' material and "No More Mr Nice Guy" has been recommended to you a number of times already. Have you actually obtained that material and instituted any of those recommendations?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> No you should *NOT* bring up another male with her!!
> 
> That will make you look even more weak and supplicating and she will lose what little amount of sexual generosity that she has for you now and you will become truly celibate!
> 
> ...


Absolutely bring up another man. Just in the context of the divorce papers freeing her to go find one.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> No, if she were single she would be squeezing herself into a sexy, back cocktail dress with her boobs flowing out, painting her toenails bright red and strapping on stripper heals that she can barely walk in and would blow her date in the driveway and the end of the evening if the babysitter was still awake when they got back to her place.
> 
> Her hormones are fine and she is likely a perfectly healthy 31 year old woman.
> 
> ...


And go right back to where it is now with the hypothetical Next Mr. Podium.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> And go right back to where it is now with the hypothetical Next Mr. Podium.


If the next guy got all fat and sloppy and completely suplicated himself to being her servant and assistant babysitter and housekeeper - yes. 

Housekeeping, bill paying, child rearing and yard work are necessary things for having a home and family.

But they are not sexy or arousing or even enjoyable a lot of the time. 

If you devote 100% of your time and energies to those things you become just another dull, lifeless, potbellied, schlep in the world. 

While I don't completely buy into the whole "Red Pill" thing in it's entirety, the one thing that it does have right is you still have to have passion and life left in you and you still have to retain some masculinity and predator instincts if you still want to have a Sexlife after the kids come. 

If you devote yourself to housekeeping and babysitting, you become the maid and nanny of the house and women aren't typically hot for the maid or nanny.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

podiumboy said:


> I'm sure you're right. I've said all along the only thing that will bring back her sex drive is another man. Sad but true. Maybe I should bring this up to her? I completely agree that since she is a healthy 31 year old woman that there is nothing wrong with her sex drive at all.


I should add that my ex wife of 7 years (14 together), ended our marriage with these words, and nothing else: "I want a separation. I want to have sex with other people."

That was a verbatim direct quote, I kid you not. I will never forget those words, even though I can't even picture my ex wife in my head any more.

And this was after several years of exactly what you are describing. Exactly.

FWIW, she was the same age, "hot", did like sex at one point, and we had a great relationship for 2/3rds of the time we were together. Then it all went downhill, for no reason that I've ever figured out, or that she told me. I wasn't a slob, I wasn't an *******, I generally took care of myself, I was, IMO, a great husband, etc etc etc. I'm not a bad looking guy, was in decent shape (still am), left the house regularly, had my own friends and hobbies.

It's like she looked at me one day, around year 9 or 10, and said "nope". Then hung around for another 4 or 5 until some other dude came along.

I strongly suspect she had a fling or two during this time, though she denied it, of course, right til the end. But there were a few times there that I remember things didn't add up...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

alexm said:


> I should add that my ex wife of 7 years (14 together), ended our marriage with these words, and nothing else: "I want a separation. I want to have sex with other people."
> 
> That was a verbatim direct quote, I kid you not. I will never forget those words, even though I can't even picture my ex wife in my head any more.
> 
> ...


I suspect Podium's W will do the same when the kids are a little older. Right now she needs the child-care help and no one would take her full time with all those younger kids.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Some times people are with partners like they are with cars and simply want a new one after a number of years even though the current one is running fine.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

oldshirt said:


> Some times people are with partners like they are with cars and simply want a new one after a number of years even though the current one is running fine.


People's tastes change, too. You can't really fault someone for that.

I don't begrudge my ex wife for what she did - I DO begrudge her for how she handled it, however.

Hindsight is always 20/20, of course, but she selected the worst possible way to end a marriage, IMO. Basically threw a lit match at it as she walked away. There was no need for that, and the same result (her "freedom") could have been obtained without resorting to what she did. I've only ever been upset at how she was able to treat me that way, after so many good or great years and everything we shared, went through together, experienced, etc.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Well, maybe she did it in a poor manner, but aren't you glad she did? She probably couldn't have done it more politely any more than you would have left her if she hadn't cheated. Both caught up in being too "nice" until her desire overwhelmed her inhibitions. Thank the Lord it did. Yes, you paid an emotional price for your freedom. Wasn't it worth it?


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Interestingly enough, No More Mr. Nice Guy advocates doing exactly the sort of 'sex moratorium' that you initiated, and, unless you were doing it passive aggressively, you did exactly what I think the good doctor was advocating. Your not freezing out your partner with some passive-aggressive withdrawal of affection and intimacy, you are just removing the 800-pound gorilla from the room. 

I personally think, if you remain open and affectionate and warm with your wife but show that you truly have no attachment to sex with her, that you don't *need* her, you will create a major shift in the dynamic. You make it safe for her to start opening up to you again, and you create positive tension in your marriage by stopping your 'pushing' and starting to 'pull.'

If you haven't already, I would recommend reading NMMNG stat. As well as the other books recommended in the Married Red Pill reading list posted above. 

Good luck.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Interestingly enough, No More Mr. Nice Guy advocates doing exactly the sort of 'sex moratorium' that you initiated, and, unless you were doing it passive aggressively, you did exactly what I think the good doctor was advocating. Your not freezing out your partner with some passive-aggressive withdrawal of affection and intimacy, you are just removing the 800-pound gorilla from the room.
> 
> I personally think, if you remain open and affectionate and warm with your wife but show that you truly have no attachment to sex with her, that you don't *need* her, you will create a major shift in the dynamic. You make it safe for her to start opening up to you again, and you create positive tension in your marriage by stopping your 'pushing' and starting to 'pull.'
> 
> ...


Thank you! Thanks for putting into words exactly what I've been TRYING to say, but apparently was failing in doing so. Everything you wrote is exactly what I want to say. 

I have been reading NMMNG, but I'll admit I haven't had a lot of time to really read it. But I'll delve into it a little more. I've done a bit of reading on the Red Pill thing, and while some of it is true, I'm not entirely sure it applies to me 100%. I'm not really a beta male, and my wife will be the first one to back that up. Especially in my professional and social life, I usually resume an alpha role. I'm a nice person, but I'm not a "nice guy". 

Not to go into too much of a history lesson, but back in High School I was an absolute ZERO with the ladies. Then I finally got my first girlfriend, and suddenly all these other girls were throwing themselves at me. It was then that I first learned the ways of the alpha male. This mentality carried on into college/mid 20s. I hit a point where I truly did not care if I was getting any female action, or not. I just wanted to party and have fun with my friends. And once I truly encapsulated that mentality, it was on. It was almost like playing a game on easy mode. It was as simple as making them laugh, maybe a little playful body language, and then saying something like "I'm into you, I think you're beautiful and a lot of fun and I'd like to see you again. But if you don't feel it, that's cool, my life will be awesome either way", followed by a little bit of distance, maybe even let them see me talking to another girl. 9/10 that did the trick. There was a span of about a few months from late 2005-early 2006 that I hooked up with something like 10 girls, the last of which was my wife. I was a little bit out of control, was drinking a lot, and started to get scared by my own behavior. She seemed like the best of all the options, and eventually we became exclusive, got engaged, married, kids, etc. 

So I haven't been single since 2006, and I've never cheated on my wife, but I have had options. I actually had a woman come on to me just the other night while I was at my friend's birthday party. She was drunk, came on to me, and believe me I shut that down. I have no interest in cheating... NONE. My wife just doesn't see me that way anymore.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

The only way I see the 'moratorium' working is if you are using that time to improve yourself and getting a new, awesome life for yourself. 

If she does not desire you sexually, then it won't bother her a bit not having sex with you. If you remain static and business as usual and have no changes in yourself or your lifestyle etc, then she will have no reason to become attracted to you or to start desiring you. 

In fact, if you remain the same and simply stop trying to have any form of marital sexuality with her, then she will probably see your marital sex life as dead and buried and that will open the door for her to fall for someone at work or the gym or something. 

If you are going to have a sexual moratorium, then it needs to be for a specific purpose such as time to make positive changes and improvements in yourself. 

In addition to a specific purpose, it would be advisable to have a specific time frame or some key criteria to accomplish before making another attempt. 

Then have a somewhat specific exit strategy in place for if nothing changes in your relationship. 

Bottomline is this all needs to be mindful and with specific goals, objectives, parameters and end-goals in mind. 

Otherwise, just saying you are going to stop pursuing sex really does smack of manipulation and passive-aggressive as was mentioned by another poster above.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Podium,

The only reason to take sex off the table is to know you can be happy without it. During that time you do your own thing - hit the gym, invest in your career, hang out with friends and family. You don't ignore your responsibilities, but you don't do extra either. Own your sexuality and refuse to engage in attempts to shame you or restore the status quo. The point is you prioritize you and meet your own needs (since she won't) yet remain open to any change of heart she has. 

Right now your wife avoids sex with you with impunity. Some people do the right thing because it's the right thing. Others (like your wife) have to see that the benefits of cooperating with you outweigh the consequences of not doing so. You're showing that you'll take whatever she dishes out and remain her faithful companion and servant, which gives her no reason to change

What you need to do is consistently let her know that you expect a sexual relationship for yourself. Approach her confidently for sex. If she says no, then you have better things to do than sit around and be refused - no whining or complaining. 

At this point, you've changed the dynamic. She also experiences a loss if your needs aren't met. You don't have to do anything more than build your own life (although you could just cut her off and end it if you want). While you were signalling that she could ignore your needs indefinitely, she probably won't tolerate that herself. As a result, you are driving her towards a decision - fix the marriage or move on. 

Either way, you are better off. There's no guarantee you'll fix this issue. But, the chances of this improving for you by continuing on this path are zero. By taking action, she at least has to weigh the cost to her of continuing to come up short.

I've been through this and want to share some personal examples. I know it's somewhat long, but I really feel for you and want to give enough detail so you can understand my situations and how different approaches yielded results:

My XW was a piece of work - got a high level of service from me, promised to improve but always had an excuse, liked the non-sexual interaction, shamed my sex drive. Sex was perfunctory; my acceptance of it reinforced her conduct. At first I just tolerated it, then I kept bringing up the issue more and more over time (which was at least a start). However, nothing changed until I shook things up (which took years, for a variety of reasons). She got left behind as my kid and I had better things to do (but I still kept up my end plus did stuff for her where she really needed help). She told me sex was all I sought (simply more shaming, hadn't had sex in months). When I told her the sex was so bad it made no difference (and she knew I meant it), stone silence.

Eventually she did try, but it took over a year to get there. Unfortunately, her attempt was short-lived, because she had emotional issues she decided were too painful to address. But, if I had not imposed consequences for her behavior and not shown I could thrive without her, I would have not gotten even that effort. I got her (grudging) respect and ownership of her issues and clarity on the situation, and was able to move on eventually.

Second example: a couple of years ago, I had an issue with my then-girlfriend. We had been exclusive for some time and then she put the brakes on sex (but expected full doting boyfriend treatment). We discussed the issue and agreed that I had not done anything overtly or changed in a manner that turned her off; she just did not feel like doing it. I explained that it seemed one-sided and was a turn-off. Her response was that there was nothing wrong with refusing sex and if my feelings for her changed, that was my shortcoming and not a legitimate relationship issue. I countered that sex was an integral part of a relationship and I would not allow it to be dispensed as a reward when she felt like it while taking my service to her as a given, and left it at that.

We spoke later and she asked me to join her at the beach for the day; I politely declined. Still later, and she asks if it would be a good idea to get a sitter for her kids and come over for a visit. After that she never expressed that viewpoint again. We did eventually break up, but only because other compatibility issues surfaced.

I know it's not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison, because a spouse is not the same as a girlfriend. However, I'm confident I was able to resolve the second issue quickly is because I owned my sexuality and my expectations from the beginning, and refused to be treated as less important. On the other hand, I feel part of the reason it took so long for my ex-wife to try to fix our sex life is that I allowed disregard for my needs to become the norm. At that point, the sex issues are compounded by resentment - for me, from being ignored and for her, the ongoing challenge to the status. Think of a co-worker who doesn't pull his weight. That mindset of "it's been okay like this for so long" can create a strong resistance to change.

Anyhow, I hope this helps. Please feel free to reach out with comments or questions.


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