# Power Sharing And Differentials In Marriage and Long Term Relationships.



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

One of the biggest impediments to having a healthy meaningful relationship is an unequal distribution of power between the parties. This usually results in an undercurrent of resentment and power plays that hamper growth in the relationship, trust and intimacy.

If one partner feels that the differential is too great or not consistent with his / her internal expectations there will be no end to conflict , which in turn upsets the atmosphere and ultimately, the longevity of the relationship.

The way in which power is measured in relationship varies. In marriages, money and decision-making on how it is spent, sex and how leisure time is distributed, and feeling a sense of collaboration or division of tasks are all areas of power distribution. 

In this dialogue, the definition of power could be seen as the feeling of empowerment in every area of the relationship as well as the capacity to get done that which the individual feels is necessary or important to the relationship and/or individual. 
In relationships , we tend to see ourselves through our partner's eyes. 

If I think I am talented and strong and my partner treats me in a fashion that is consistent with my perception , then I would feel empowered in the relationship. 

Conversely ,if I feel that my perception of self, strength and ability are not valued by my partner and that I don't have the ability to direct my own life, a feeling of disempowerment would create a sense of disillusionment and feeling of a lack of inner control. 

In the first scenario, relationship struggles are dealt with in a fashion which allows differing opinions to be identified , discussed and a reasonable compromise to be found. Both parties offer *honest and clear information* and have full disclosure of their wants and needs. The outcomes to these conversations would be supportive to both parties’ needs, further increasing the internal sense of control for both parties. Changes in boundaries and the relationship would be dealt with proactively. *Even difficult discussions would be confronted in an honest and compassionate way.*

In the latter scenario ,there would be a less honest set of disclosures hence, the inability to correctly identify root problems. Actions might be taken passively and in an under-cover way so that issues would not be dealt with directly. Reactivity and defensiveness takes the place of openness. There would also be an internally inconsistent picture of self . 
The _power differential_ in that relationship would be considered as out of balance, and deep resentments will inevitably arise.

Many times, persons in such a relationship feel the resentment , but are unable to correctly identify the root cause of it because they are unaware of what consists a healthy power balance in a loving relationship.This can vary form couple to couple, there is no one size fits all template.
However, the only power sharing arrangement that can work in a relationship is one that is agreed upon by both partners and one where both feel their input and power are equally valued and appreciated.

No development takes place without power. All injuries go to power and all successes are related to power. The level of joy and contentment and the success of your relationship is directly proportionate to how you create a balance of power in your relationship

I know this was a long post because it is a very intricate, delicate topic , with many variables.

But pretending power struggles and differentials doesn't exist in any relationship is a sure recipie for disaster, because all power differentials aren't intrinsically bad.
What has been your experiences with power in your relationship?
Are you comfortable with it?
How do yo balance it?
What works for your relationship?

Looking forward to your responses!


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

I have never viewed my relationships from a power perspective. Any feeling of empowerment that I have had has come from my application of skills, knowledge to better myself or my marriage. I don't even think we have power struggles. We each have needs that we seek to balance through mutual agreement rather than taking and demanding. So the methods we use are the ones in your first example but I don't get a sense of empowerment from it. 

Power is energy expended per time in my vocabulary because of my physics background. But the notion of power in relationships I think comes from a perceived notion of control. If I control someone I have power over them. But my wife and I don't seek control or use it as an exercise of dominance in our relationship. Nor do we compete. For it is through competition that power is exercised. Our energies and forces are directed at our goals not each other. Only through comparison can you have a differential. Of course this is excepting games where my wife exerts extreme power over me in words with friends but it's all in fun. 

I guess I really don't understand where you are coming from your notion of power and empowerment. Your definition seems to me to be circular.


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> One of the biggest impediments to having a healthy meaningful relationship is an unequal distribution of power between the parties. This usually results in an undercurrent of resentment and power plays that hamper growth in the relationship, trust and intimacy.
> 
> If one partner feels that the differential is too great or not consistent with his / her internal expectations there will be no end to conflict , which in turn upsets the atmosphere and ultimately, the longevity of the relationship.
> 
> ...


I have the vast majority of power and it was clearly delineated before we married.Our system has worked so far because the power dynamic comes natural to our genetic and social conditioning. I have to however earn her trust in my ability to perform my leadership role through my actions and words by demonstrating my competence and trustworthiness.

In a relationship that deals in a power exchange the dominant party must be the one responsible for the health of the relationship.I have a dominant personality and have a need for control to feel safe and secure in my relationship, my wife on the other hand feels out of control in charge.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

meson said:


> I have never viewed my relationships from a power perspective. Any feeling of empowerment that I have had has come from my application of skills, knowledge to better myself or my marriage. I don't even think we have power struggles. We each have needs that we seek to balance through mutual agreement rather than taking and demanding. So the methods we use are the ones in your first example but I don't get a sense of empowerment from it.
> 
> Power is energy expended per time in my vocabulary because of my physics background. But the notion of power in relationships I think comes from a perceived notion of control. If I control someone I have power over them. But my wife and I don't seek control or use it as an exercise of dominance in our relationship. Nor do we compete. For it is through competition that power is exercised. Our energies and forces are directed at our goals not each other. Only through comparison can you have a differential. Of course this is excepting games where my wife exerts extreme power over me in words with friends but it's all in fun.
> 
> I guess I really don't understand where you are coming from your notion of power and empowerment. Your definition seems to me to be circular.


Physics background here too lol!
" Power=Force x Velocity."
Then there's negative acceleration...

Anyway ,
The term power here is used in a much different context.
Nevertheless it's effects are the same. It's the ability to make something happen ( force x velocity) or stop something from happening ( negative acceleration).
I'll try to explain!

Power differentials can exist in almost any type of relationship.
For example , if you go to your lawyer with a serious matter , you trust that he / she knows exactly what they're talking about , and that they have your best interests at heart. 
They appreciate the fact that you chose them.
You appreciate the fact that he / she is qualified and would best represent your interests, even though you know very little about law.

In other words , there is mutual respect between both of you, even though he / she is more powerful than you in this arrangement.

Because there are two entirely different persons in a marriage or long term relationship , there would be different strengths , weaknesses and generally ,different competencies. Differences of opinions and disagreements inevitably arise , whether small or big ones.

How these differences are resolved , how relationship goals are set and met ,how money is spent ,the frequency and quality of sex ,and a whole lot of other things in a relationship are functions of how power is divided or shared in the relationship.
Power in this case ,being the ability to say yes or no to any situation or make a compromise and both parties agree.

In some relationships , there are power struggles because one partner views the other as a subordinate rather than an equal.

For eg. A husband in academia and research , wife is not, probably just employed in a non related field.
Husband travels a lot and wife has to move with him, so she constantly has to start over whilst he's pursuing and furthering his career.
If the husband doesn't see her as equal and takes for granted that she would have goals of her own other than just supporting his career moves ,conflict will arise.
Based on how this conflict is handled , she would feel resentment because inside, she doesn't feel he values her and her contribution to the marriage as much as she values his , because what he says always goes.
She has very little input and control over her life.
Therein lies the power differential.

If power was shared , or if he respected her and saw her as equal , the conversation would be what they both wanted instead of what he wanted for his career.

Now, if she had agreed to support his life work , because she felt safe that he had her best interest at heart , then she would feel she had a say in the direction of the marriage , and even in his life.
If she objects to one of his plans and he listens to her, makes a workable compromise , then she feels that she has the power to change anything she's not comfortable with , in the marriage. Her contribution are valued and always welcome .
She feels appreciated and thus, empowered, even though he is more qualified and earns more money than her.

Another example could be that of some SAHM who are qualified , but choose to stay at home but the feel undervalued because the husband might not give the same level of respect to them as if they were employed in their field.
Not that they have a problem staying home, but the root problem is that they feel powerless in the marriage because the husband doesn't fully appreciate their contribution or doesn't express it.
Resentments start brewing.

I think the Marriage Builders concept of the " Policy Of Joint Agreement" could be a form of power sharing.
It states that no partner should make any decision unless the other partner enthusiastically agrees.
In that way they both play active parts in the decision making process, and are both responsible for the outcomes.

Both feel appreciated , empowered in the relationship and resentments are minimized


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I have always been skeptical of the couples who claim they share all decision making equally. I just don't think this is possible. I think one or both always knows who is in charge but just doesn't want to admit it.

In my relationship I am definitely the dominant one. Its not like I told my wife that she must submit or anything like that. Over time I proved that I was a worthy leader of our household. However, I think this model could be very problematic if you have a man who is incapable of leading trying to call the shots just because of his gender.

In any organization its always better if the natural leaders ascend to their positions. Length of time on the job, cronyism, nepotism, etc. etc. shouldn't matter. I don't think marriage is any different even though its only a two person group. The person most fit to lead should lead.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

The lawyer example is closest to how it works in our marriage. My H definitely is the leader in our family and I prefer it that way. I could be b*tch on every front and challenge him for challenging sake but why when in the end I think what he is proposing is best. There have been some big decisions that I didn't agree with but went along with because of his persuasive ways. That persuasive has a lot to do with my trust of him. Selling our house a few months ago was a good example (I miss my shoe closet!)

All that being said I have found that this power has shift somewhat since we had our baby. The shift has taken place willingly and naturally. I'm not sure I can express it clearly but I do have my theory of why. And as for being a SAHM I feel even more appreciated since that transition. My H is constantly telling me how "amazing" I am and his actions back up his praise. 

The power balance in our marriage though not equal definitely works for us.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Quant said:


> I have the vast majority of power and it was clearly delineated before we married.Our system has worked so far because the power dynamic comes natural to our genetic and social conditioning. I have to however earn her trust in my ability to perform my leadership role through my actions and words by demonstrating my competence and trustworthiness.
> 
> In a relationship that deals in a power exchange the dominant party must be the one responsible for the health of the relationship.I have a dominant personality and have a need for control to feel safe and secure in my relationship, my wife on the other hand feels out of control in charge.


This sounds like our marriage.

I am going to ask dh if, like you, he needs control to feel safe and secure in the marriage. He has never expressed that. As soon as the political shows are over, lol, I will ask.

I have a feeling the answer is no, though. I think he would feel fine if he had married a woman who wanted an equal relationship. But I definitely need a dominant partner to feel safe, and we just kind of fell into that, or maybe he discovered that about himself, as we went along. And we did this without knowing terms like dominant and submissive, lol, or even knowing other people lived this way. This was all before the internet, lol.

One thing I am pretty sure of, though, is that it would be very hard for him now to _not_ have this type of relationship. It is as fulfilling for him as it is necessary for me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> If power was shared , or if he respected her and saw her as equal , the conversation would be what they both wanted instead of what he wanted for his career.
> 
> Now, if she had agreed to support his life work , because she felt safe that he had her best interest at heart , then she would feel she had a say in the direction of the marriage , and even in his life.
> If she objects to one of his plans and he listens to her, makes a workable compromise , then she feels that she has the power to change anything she's not comfortable with , in the marriage. Her contribution are valued and always welcome .
> ...


This is us. I always feel a little unsure when I say we don't have an equal relationship, because, at least in some ways, if both partners are getting their needs met, then it is equal. The unequal part for us comes from a difference in earning power and probably desire to take responsibility. And dh is just smarter than I am, and has a better character, so he is just naturally going to get my respect. 

He has earned my confidence in him, and continues to earn it. I am always looking for cracks in the foundation . . . and those cracks either have to be fixed, or he has to show me that what I thought was a crack was actually a dirt smudge. I am just not going to feel safe with cracks, and he knows it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> Over time I proved that I was a worthy leader of our household. However, I think this model could be very problematic if you have a man who is incapable of leading trying to call the shots just because of his gender.
> 
> In any organization its always better if the natural leaders ascend to their positions.


I think this is really important. People need to be themselves. 

This is my problem with all that alpha male stuff. Much better to just be yourself and work on your character (a book like Seven Habits of Highly Effective People is excellent for that), than to just make superficial changes. Long term relationships require long term changes.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

committed4ever said:


> All that being said I have found that this power has shift somewhat since we had our baby. The shift has taken place willingly and naturally. I'm not sure I can express it clearly but I do have my theory of why. And as for being a SAHM I feel even more appreciated since that transition. My H is constantly telling me how "amazing" I am and his actions back up his praise.
> 
> The power balance in our marriage though not equal definitely works for us.


I would be interested in hearing your theory . . .


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## melw74 (Dec 12, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I have always been skeptical of the couples who claim they share all decision making equally. I just don't think this is possible. I think one or both always knows who is in charge but just doesn't want to admit it.
> 
> In my relationship I am definitely the dominant one. Its not like I told my wife that she must submit or anything like that. Over time I proved that I was a worthy leader of our household. However, I think this model could be very problematic if you have a man who is incapable of leading trying to call the shots just because of his gender.
> 
> In any organization its always better if the natural leaders ascend to their positions. Length of time on the job, cronyism, nepotism, etc. etc. shouldn't matter. I don't think marriage is any different even though its only a two person group. The person most fit to lead should lead.


Well here are then. I am going to say my husband is in charge..

I was trying to think of way of saying it, but however i say it, Its going to mean the same thing, so what the hell, best just to say it.

I mean we do talk, but in the end of the discussion, my husband will have the final say, but he listens to me, we chat about everything, but ultimately he does make the final decision, but i trust him, and if he thinks that his way is best then so be it.

I do not think that this anything wrong with a leader in the household, it works for us.

I like the fact that my husband is the head of the house..... I like the fact he takes care of us all, I feel safe, loved.... and very happy he leads.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Caribbean Man said*: *The level of joy and contentment and the success of your relationship is directly proportionate to how you create a balance of power in your relationship*.


 I don't think me & my husbands dynamics are the norm... Me the happy SAHM with the more dominant "take charge" personality over his Phlegmatic -geared more passive/ Peace loving temperament...(tipped Beta- but all GOOD Beta)....why I respect him so much... this has worked very well for us , who we are, what we wanted... 



> *Because there are two entirely different persons in a marriage or long term relationship , there would be different strengths , weaknesses and generally ,different competencies. Differences of opinions and disagreements inevitably arise , whether small or big ones*


 I could list a # of areas where my husband's strengths are MY weakness and my strengths are HIS weaknesses ... in some ways we are stark opposites....but this has been more of a Blessing....as we compliment each other very well....

For instance... my husband is not the type to clang a gong when he is upset or needs something, he does not like being a burden to anyone... his temperament would be more inclined to keep the peace, even if it hurts him....... then there is ME...I am more assertive.... I will incite some dialog / speak up...I refuse to be miserable....and sulk....if there is another way...... I will go after what I want...using wisdom & effective communication skills to put the odds in my favor...so long as I'm not totally selfish about this... we all win.. 

I am very curious - asking open ended questions, so long as I stay interested/ in tuned to *his feelings* ...(which I care about)...he can be himself ...and he's told me he likes the attention.... 



> *Another example could be that of some SAHM who are qualified , but choose to stay at home but the feel undervalued because the husband might not give the same level of respect to them as if they were employed in their field.
> 
> Not that they have a problem staying home, but the root problem is that they feel powerless in the marriage because the husband doesn't fully appreciate their contribution or doesn't express it. Resentments start brewing*.


I know a Mom in this predicament, she shared how it makes her feel...I remember walking away from that conversation with a deep thankfulness for how my husband has always been... he's always supported me, speaks very highly of my role, always tells me I am the brains behind the outfit even. 



> I think the Marriage Builders concept of the " *Policy Of Joint Agreement*" could be a form of power sharing.
> 
> *It states that no partner should make any decision unless the other partner enthusiastically agrees.
> In that way they both play active parts in the decision making process, and are both responsible for the outcomes.*
> ...


Here is the link to that The Policy of Joint Agreement This is HOW we LIVE... Now it's true.. I am the harder to Please between us...but I am also the more creative...coming up with the ideas, the plans... having the time to do the detailed research at home , making the calls... to present my plan to him.... whether this is to do a building project, where to vacation... anything that costs big money.. we sit down together... we weigh the pros & cons together.... I can not even think of a time where we walked away ...upset ... at a tug of war....we are both very reasonable... both savers...yet we like to LIVE life too...spend when it's worth the memories, for enjoyment for yrs to come etc.

...I would NOT go ahead of my husband... and do anything to undermine his trust... I've always been very OPEN.... transparent... I need his support also.. I respect him, greatly value his opinion...and honestly If he said "NO...and cited his why's to me... I'm going to listen! 

A few times in our past... little things, I went ahead of him thinking "OH this will be ok" only to have him tell me "*I told you so"* afterwards ...and I rightly deserved it ...we can laugh about it after the fact...

He is still the King of the Castle...the Man of the House...he supports our large family & deserves the highest of respect.....he looks out for every one of us... he is very safety conscious...and encourages us all for our happiness.. this seems to bring him the greatest Happiness... 

It's very important to not allow any power dynamics to squash the other partner... 

I really believe with my personality (primarily Choleric) , if I was with a man who I didn't *Respect*... drinker, didn't care about his family, played video games all day, frivolously wasted his $$, couldn't keep his word...I'd surely try to change him, come off as controlling... which would only cause contention & hell in any relationship... so Respecting each other is KEY here...


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> I'll try to explain!


Thanks! Now I think I see that you mean. You are using power as a model of something that shows the balance between parties involved in some relationship. The underlying basis of power is either agreeing to an action or preventing an action. I can see how this model works and I agree with all of the underlying examples you have given as representative dynamics in relationships. 



Caribbean Man said:


> Power differentials can exist in almost any type of relationship.
> For example , if you go to your lawyer with a serious matter , you trust that he / she knows exactly what they're talking about , and that they have your best interests at heart.
> They appreciate the fact that you chose them.
> You appreciate the fact that he / she is qualified and would best represent your interests, even though you know very little about law.
> ...


This is the one example where I disagree with you still. In the case of hiring services or engaging people to represent me I am explicitly delegating my authority to act on my behalf. Their power originates from me in the form of a contract. And through this contract my power is retained and outlined. Sometimes under certain circumstances they may do something I don't want that I need to agree to because of the inconvienicen of breaking the contract but this is rare. So thus I still don't see a lawyer relationship as one having power over me all the time. Though there may be instances where it is true it is not always true.

In particular we pre-filter these type of relationships to find individuals that are compatible with our desires. For instance we interview several contractors for kictchen work and the one we chose treated us as an equal in the process. We reject the one that tried to explicitly exercise his "superiority" of design over ours. Through this pre-filtering we maintain our power to a higher percentage.

Likewise my spouse and I pre-filtered each other to an extreme degree for compatibility on many issues including the process to resolve debates. Because of this pre-filtering for us we have escaped many of the circumstances you outlined above.



Caribbean Man said:


> How these differences are resolved , how relationship goals are set and met ,how money is spent ,the frequency and quality of sex ,and a whole lot of other things in a relationship are functions of how power is divided or shared in the relationship.
> Power in this case ,being the ability to say yes or no to any situation or make a compromise and both parties agree.
> 
> In some relationships , there are power struggles because one partner views the other as a subordinate rather than an equal.


:iagree:

I guess i never recognized power differentials in marriage because our marriage is one that we are equals not subordinates largely due to our pre-filtering of each other. We are not equal in all skills but we both know who is better at what and take that into consideration for our goals.


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

jld said:


> This sounds like our marriage.
> 
> I am going to ask dh if, like you, he needs control to feel safe and secure in the marriage. He has never expressed that. As soon as the political shows are over, lol, I will ask.
> 
> ...


He'd never admit it I know I would never admit it to my wife if she asked me.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> But pretending power struggles and differentials doesn't exist in any relationship is a sure recipie for disaster, because all power differentials aren't intrinsically bad.
> What has been your experiences with power in your relationship?
> Are you comfortable with it?
> How do yo balance it?
> ...


Such an interesting and important topic! 

I think there was a power dynamic in every relationship I've had. The way you described the imbalance is interesting and different than I've seen before, but perhaps incomplete. You did not describe those relationships where one person has a low self-image but is involved with someone who thinks highly of them. 

In the past, I had a strong sense of purpose and self-esteem. I resented partners who wanted me to submit or even be cooperative. Then I met my second husband, who was financially accomplished, quite intelligent, and who was a master at understanding politics in the workplace, which I've never been good at doing. Because I perceived him to have greater skill and success than me, I found myself being cooperative and a team player in ways that I'd never done before. I didn't cling to my own power because I benefited from taking his suggestions and values to heart. However, he was the low-power person relationship-wise, being on the passive-aggressive side and me not really giving in to those tactics. 

We divorced because he betrayed me. I am not sure how power played a role in that, though. If I had to guess, I think he felt an imbalance that I did not perceive at the time, and he stepped outside of the marriage to regain his sense of power. 

I'm now married again, this time to a man who I also have tremendous respect for. However, my own inner state is not as strong. I've come to recognize that I've never really been loved much - and this awareness has done serious damage to my self-esteem in recent years. 

Background: People feel uncomfortable with me because I am TOO perceptive, combined with TOO unfiltered. I "know" people in ways that contradict how they want to be seen, and I don't know how to act like I don't. So when Joe's b*tching about his wife, I hone in on what HE is doing to contribute to the situation... much like I do here. That's fine when Joe's asking for help, but he doesn't appreciate it so much when he is just venting, and I don't recognize that difference until it's too late. This has alienated me from my family and from people I'd have liked to be friends with hundreds of times, and I feel helpless about it quite often, and have come to see myself as not very likable. 

Yet my husband adores me. He's my greatest defender and cheerleader. His brothers both like me, and so do his parents, which has never been the case in my past relationships. 

The power in our relationship started off with me being the low-power person. I deferred on pretty much everything because I value the relationship so much. I was a SAHP whose financial contributions were significant to our household, but I didn't go out and work for the first two years. 

He felt appreciated and cared for, and as a result, he also deferred to me in many ways. He's very much a caretaker, and his idea of that was to honor my values and priorities. 

Now that I've been working again, though, a power imbalance is making itself known. I'm not always available to spend time together. I have to put a client's desires ahead of his on a pretty regular basis. He feels less cared for, and as a result, his attitude toward me has been undergoing some subtle changes. 

This man who never said a harsh word now takes his frustrations out on me at times. Perhaps he did before, too, but I didn't notice. Today, though, as I'm perceiving myself as responsible to more people than just him, I get easily overwhelmed if he feels let down (my self-esteem issue). This causes us to have disagreements which NEVER existed in our first two and a half years together. 

What I've noticed about our arguments is that we clash when I take a stand, but when I get to the root of the issue - that his disapproval triggers my self-esteem issues - his cheerleader/caretaker tendencies come out. He is quick to step back and apologize, and to make changes at times, which ensures that I have a reasonable sense of power within our relationship. For my part, I think he sees that I try to consider his point of view and offer the same sense of following him that he offers to me. 

I sometimes worry that we will lose that balance, but so far we seem to be managing it as well as any other couple I've known. If it does get too out of balance, I believe I would resign from working again and instead make sure his needs are met.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

My husband and I have spheres of influence. We each have strengths and interests and in each of our areas we hold more influence. For example, he handles our money and paperwork. I handle the parenting decisions - we do extended breastfeeding, co-sleeping and we homeschool. We each research our areas and explain why we think whatever decision we want to make is the best one. 

Each of us discusses and has ultimate veto power, but we've never needed to use it. Right now we are handling the sale of our house and have many decisions to make which we are making seamlessly together. He's done the mortgage research, I found our new house by sifting through the options for over a year, and going after the one I wanted most that he loved too. He did have the ultimate say on price though as he's the finance handler and is now fully financially supporting our family.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

This topic is timely for me because my husband and I are just getting around to realizing that our failure to negotiate power in our marriage almost ran us into the ground. 

We've addressed it, and it's made a world of difference. Part of what has helped us both was to realize how eroticized power and power sharing is for us. 

The model we chose required active choice on both of our parts. In my case, the choice to submit to his decisions when we are in conflict. In his case, the choice to develop, maintain and project strong leadership traits that allow me to submit without misgivings. Although I desire a strong head of household from my husband, I demand that my respect and submission be earned. 

The model will only work if we accept equal responsibility for it. I don't see one person as being more responsible for the marriage than the other; if either one of us fails, we both fail. 

One of the reasons I theorize that this is working so well for us, and has solved some long standing conflicts between us, is that we fall very strongly into submission (me) and domination (him) sexually. We've leveraged that to make the "out of the bedroom" model a lot more fun.

Communication is the key to all of this. It doesn't matter what power sharing arrangement you use, as long as both parties are fully committed to air and address any and all feelings that arise as a result of it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Quant said:


> He'd never admit it I know I would never admit it to my wife if she asked me.


Quant, you don't even know my husband. Why speak for him?

And why would you not admit it to your wife?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

KathyBatesel, can you talk more about relationships where one person has low self-esteem but the other person regards them highly? My dh has been trying to build my self-confidence for 20 years, and tells me he sees me very differently than I see myself.

Also, it is amazing how well you know yourself and your relationships. Is that just a gift, or did you just spend a lot of time educating yourself on this subject?


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

jld said:


> Quant, you don't even know my husband. Why speak for him?
> 
> And why would you not admit it to your wife?


Because it would reveal too much of the man behind the curtain.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Quant said:


> Because it would reveal too much of the man behind the curtain.


But Quant, she wants to know the man behind the curtain.

Don't be afraid to show her who you are, your sorrows, your insecurities. That will endear you to her.

I don't think she really expects perfection. She just wants you to do your best, and take responsibility for the mistakes you undoubtedly make. You are a real person, and she knows it.


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

jld said:


> But Quant, she wants to know the man behind the curtain.
> 
> Don't be afraid to show her who you are, your sorrows, your insecurities. That will endear you to her.
> 
> I don't think she really expects perfection. She just wants you to do your best, and take responsibility for the mistakes you undoubtedly make. You are a real person, and she knows it.


I have no problems admitting fault,but the man behind the curtain isn't as interesting as he would like himself to be. My parents expected perfection and excellence in me as a child so I have trouble showing my inner self who's a lot more messy then the man I want to be.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I really want to thank everyone for their inputs because basically the purpose of the thread was to find out the different types of arrangements between different couples , the advantages and disadvantages.

However I'm not seeing a particular type of arrangement here that I know exist between some couples , because I've seen it in real life.
Is there any woman here who makes more than her husband
[ financially] or who is basically in charge of the home and the marriage?

How does it work out?

One example I know of is a husband and wife team personally ,who own a transport business which consists of a huge fleet of busses and luxury vehicles. She is the mover and shaker in the business, as well as the mover and shaker in the home.
The husband always seem to play a background role.

I remember one time I carried a friend of mine to meet her because he wanted to purchase one of their vehicles. He made offers but she simply said that she would have to discuss the matter with her husband first,before she agreed to any final figure on the sale.
I was surprised because I knew for certain she was in charge, but apparently, she still _preferred_ to bring him into the negotiation.

They have two kids , grown up now. The daughter graduated from law school and I think she's practising law with a large firm , and the son is being groomed by his mom to take over the family business. Interestingly enough, the husband also cared for the kids from young and schooled them till graduation, whilst the wife ran the business. The son decided he didn't want to attend university , so the mom took him and taught him how to run the business.

I don't know the inner workings of their marriage, but from the looks of it they appear happy and successful to me. They live in our neighbourhood and I see them walking their dogs together, early every morning, and sometimes they still hold each other's hands .
And lol, they are much older than me. I see them working in their flower garden together , or sometimes sitting in the verandah chatting late in the evenings , together.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

CM, you might want to ask LoveLonely about this. I think he is in this kind of relationship.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

jld said:


> But Quant, she wants to know the man behind the curtain.
> 
> Don't be afraid to show her who you are, your sorrows, your insecurities. That will endear you to her.
> 
> I don't think she really expects perfection. She just wants you to do your best, and take responsibility for the mistakes you undoubtedly make. You are a real person, and she knows it.


Maybe, maybe not. When I show too much vulnerability to my wife she changes in how she reacts to me. If I behave like anything other than the "man with the plan" she listens more to me but I noticed that she isn't as clingy physically. So I pretty much just stopped confiding in her when it comes to insecurities and doubts. I have never really talked to her about it. Its just something I noticed.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Quant said:


> I have no problems admitting fault,but the man behind the curtain isn't as interesting as he would like himself to be. My parents expected perfection and excellence in me as a child so I have trouble showing my inner self who's a lot more messy then the man I want to be.


We're all messy, Quant. We are all just a true mess. Don't you see it here? And the people who come out and admit they are messed up are probably a lot less messed up than those who want us to believe they have it all together!

I don't know how old you are, but try to shake off what your parents wanted. You don't have to live your whole life under their rule, you know? America is the land of the free!

And I am sure you are very interesting! And, you know, you could just say that to your wife, that you are afraid you are not very interesting. I am sure she will tell you lots of things she finds interesting about you.

Have a little courage, Quant. Show her your heart.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> Maybe, maybe not. When I show too much vulnerability to my wife she changes in how she reacts to me. If I behave like anything other than the "man with the plan" she listens more to me but I noticed that she isn't as clingy physically. So I pretty much just stopped confiding in her when it comes to insecurities and doubts. I have never really talked to her about it. Its just something I noticed.


Ouch. I am sorry to hear that. 

I really, really think she needs to know your heart, RH. She needs to know the real guy.

It is scary to see our guy at his low point. A few years ago, our son was unexpectedly diagnosed with cancer. Dh and I were both shaken, and dh cried for nearly two days. I was crying, too, but was shocked by dh. He is normally nearly emotionless. So even though we were both grieving, I had to go back to dd and the little boys and tell them, and move them overnight to a new city, where the cancer hospital was. Dh was just not his normal self. I was really scared.

But on the third day, the social worker at the hospital came and talked to him, and said that not everyone dies from the cancer that ds has. She herself had survived cancer twice. Dh really bucked up after that. We had never known anyone personally with cancer before, or not well, and we were just convinced ds was going to die, and right away.

I really can't tell you how shaken I was to see dh shaken. I had only ever seen him with tears in his eyes one other time, and then to see him silent, but with red eyes and tears streaming down his cheeks . . . I did not know what to think! My world was just falling down!

But I had to cope. Someone had to round up the other kids and keep going.

Please trust your wife. Please try to be as transparent as you can, even if it is only a little at a time. It is through transparency, vulnerability, that people can truly bond with us. And you want to be truly bonded with your wife.


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

jld said:


> We're all messy, Quant. We are all just a true mess. Don't you see it here? And the people who come out and admit they are messed up are probably a lot less messed up than those who want us to believe they have it all together!
> 
> I don't know how old you are, but try to shake off what your parents wanted. You don't have to live your whole life under their rule, you know? America is the land of the free!
> 
> ...


I don't know I'm a pretty big mess.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Quant said:


> I don't know I'm a pretty big mess.


Lol, she probably already knows it, anyway!


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> However I'm not seeing a particular type of arrangement here that I know exist between some couples , because I've seen it in real life.
> Is there any woman here who makes more than her husband
> [ financially] or who is basically in charge of the home and the marriage?


The example closest to me would be the previous marriage of my brother in law. He got married really young to a woman who was a little older. He was a college dropout who had worked a series of low paying jobs. His wife was the breadwinner. He was really immature at the time and she was perfectly okay with it. He spent most of his time playing video games with his friends when he wasn't working. 

His dad suggested he join the Army and he did. He became a lot more disciplined. He was still making a lot less than his wife though, but from the outside their relationship seemed fine. 

This all changed when he got out of the military though. Apparently the work he did was some sort of high level intelligence type of stuff. He ended up landing a job paying him over 150k. That was the beginning of the end.

Instead of being happy for him for whatever reason all his wife did was belittle him. He tried to fix this by buying things like a new house and a car but it didn't matter. Their relationship dynamic completely changed. From my perspective she behaved as though she wanted him to feel small for whatever reason. He ended up having an affair and they got divorced.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

jld said:


> Ouch. I am sorry to hear that.
> 
> I really, really think she needs to know your heart, RH. She needs to know the real guy.
> 
> ...


I appreciate what you're trying to say. I really do. But I have to follow my instincts. I know my woman. If I bare all I really do think she would be less attracted to me. I'm actually okay with this. I don't think she wants to see my sensitive side. 

I'm not saying she is an ice queen. Obviously if I lost a parent or something she would console me. But the whole talk about my insecurities thing. Nope, I will never do that again. I can honestly detect a change in her when I do that.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

We're each other's Yin/Yang, we each have our own strengths & weaknesses and play off of that. 
We also don't fit into the stereotypical gender roles, in that my H likes to the clean the house on the wknds, it helps him unwind to do mindless, physical tasks. 
He has no issue when I decide things, I think if anything it's a relief to him as it's one less thing he has to do with an already very hectic schedule. 
It helps that my H is not threatened by my strong personality, he "lets" me be me without trying to control my behavior, he accepts me as I am, I in turn also accept him as he is, warts & all.
Neither of us is perfect, we don't pretend to be, nor do we pretend to have all the answers.
We like to solve problems together & when we can't, the one who has the stronger experience is most likely the decision maker.
For us, we know the other has our best interests at heart, that the decisions we make together are for the betterment of our family as a whole.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I appreciate what you're trying to say. I really do. But I have to follow my instincts. I know my woman. If I bare all I really do think she would be less attracted to me. I'm actually okay with this. I don't think she wants to see my sensitive side.
> 
> I'm not saying she is an ice queen. Obviously if I lost a parent or something she would console me. But the whole talk about my insecurities thing. Nope, I will never do that again. I can honestly detect a change in her when I do that.


You know your situation best, and if your wife truly cannot handle the real you, then perhaps what you are doing, at least for now, is the way to go.

But this makes me very, very sad for you. I hope you have family or friends you can be your whole self with. Everybody needs that.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> Such an interesting and important topic!
> 
> I think there was a power dynamic in every relationship I've had. The way you described the imbalance is interesting and different than I've seen before, but perhaps incomplete. You did not describe those relationships where one person has a low self-image but is involved with someone who thinks highly of them.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your insightful post Kathy!
I see some parallels in your arrangement with your husband and what existed with my wife and I early in our marriage.
I was the more accomplished one and I had the drive and passion to start a business. I think she highly respected my drive and determination and that carried over into our marriage. She definitely wanted me to lead and she play the supportive role.
I was also very supportive of what she wanted to do, I am still very supportive of her, lol!
However over time people's needs change, and we both changed , fast because our lives had to evolve fast. The business was our life, it overlapped into our marriage,but neither of us recognized our needs had changed , and the original " leadership" arrangement could no longer work. She wanted more, and I wasn't handling home well and our relationship.
Then resentments started brewing and it manifested itself in the form of passive aggressive behavior on her part. I couldn't really put my finger on it , but I knew something was drastically wrong.

Lots of arguments at home , and she purposely neglected to do things we agreed to in the business which caused us to loose lots of money.In turn I would get upset, we argue and couldn't get to the bottom of things.Repeat the cycle.

We headed for marriage counselling and that's when I first heard the term " _power differential_" used in terms of marital relationships.
Long story short,

We had to make a new arrangement to reflect our needs.
She's fully in charge of the home. I don't question her judgment on anything, whatever she wants I defer to her decision, even if I might prefer something else, she has the final decision.

I'm in charge of our business, and the same arrangement applies.
Whatever big decisions, we discuss it, but ultimately, its up to me.

With respect to our relationship, we sit and discuss everything. No decision is taken unless we fully agree, whether it be friends , vacations , sex , money , social events ,in laws , personal feelings / emotions ,everything.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> The example closest to me would be the previous marriage of my brother in law. He got married really young to a woman who was a little older. He was a college dropout who had worked a series of low paying jobs. His wife was the breadwinner. He was really immature at the time and she was perfectly okay with it. He spent most of his time playing video games with his friends when he wasn't working.
> 
> His dad suggested he join the Army and he did. He became a lot more disciplined. He was still making a lot less than his wife though, but from the outside their relationship seemed fine.
> 
> ...


Yes.
I've seen that^^^ type of thing happen too.

I think the difference in the personality types of the people involved could also be a factor. Some people are not evenly matched.

I think Simply Amorous and Phoenix70 explains it well.
The type of ""Yin/Yang" arrangement where a couple strengths and weaknesses complement each other tends to work well.
So it doesn't really matter who makes more money or whatever.

I think what matters is that in the entire marriage arrangement they perform functions that they are well suited to do, like you alluded to in your first post.
In the marriage relationship , they fulfill each other's emotional as well a physical needs.
That's why I think it depends on the personality types involved.


I don't think I would have a problem with that ,social construct and traditional gender roles aside, just as long as the woman shows me respect in every way.
But some couples are just not suited for that type of arrangement.
What matters is what works for_ your marriage_.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ReformedHubby said:


> *I appreciate what you're trying to say. I really do. But I have to follow my instincts. I know my woman. If I bare all I really do think she would be less attracted to me. I'm actually okay with this. I don't think she wants to see my sensitive side.
> 
> I'm not saying she is an ice queen. Obviously if I lost a parent or something she would console me. But the whole talk about my insecurities thing. Nope, I will never do that again. I can honestly detect a change in her when I do that.*


There is another regular male poster here who has said THE SAME about his wife....and they've been married 20 plus yrs... he knows...he's had to push his sensitive side down.... because she just doesn't like it... it does affect the attraction I guess.... 

Now me... I am the complete opposite of these women... I prefer a man who is capable of sharing the deepest parts of his soul with me.. ..I guess I've always seen this as the Romantics of our world....

Alpha traits are great & all - stirring / attractive...but if they lack this side of the sensitive Beta.... I really believe something in me would NOT be AS fulfilled... I'd slowly grow bored....and be thinking...why can't he open up with me like that, I'd perceive it as an emotional wall...and I'd want to climb it to see the other side! 



> *Caribbean Man said:* *I think Simply Amorous and Phoenix70 explains it well. The type of ""Yin/Yang" arrangement where a couple strengths and weaknesses complement each other tends to work well.
> So it doesn't really matter who makes more money or whatever*.


I've always found this kinda funny about me & mine..... I am naturally more Aggressive but I've always had a thing for the Sappy Sensitive type men..... and he is Mr Calm laid back loving Gentleman.... and he's always been attracted to feisty - "a little on the rough side" women!.... (well so long as she has a sensitive side too)....
which I very much do.. it feeds the Romantic in me.







.



> *Phenix70 said:**He has no issue when I decide things, I think if anything it's a relief to him as it's one less thing he has to do with an already very hectic schedule.
> It helps that my H is not threatened by my strong personality, he "lets" me be me without trying to control my behavior, he accepts me as I am, I in turn also accept him as he is, warts & all.*


 Yep, this sounds a lot like us too... My husband has the same attitude....he lets me DO, cause it's less for him to worry about, ..with our large family -with this one going here, that one there, college forms, Doc appointments, kids spending the night, his working 40 hrs a week, he's happy to let me hold down the Fort... and just let him know what is going on...so none of us miss anything....he probably hasn't written a check in 10 + yrs, probably more... I handle the calander, all the fine details, every paper work and my goal, for it all to run like a fine well tuned machine....



> *We like to solve problems together & when we can't, the one who has the stronger experience is most likely the decision maker.
> 
> For us, we know the other has our best interests at heart, that the decisions we make together are for the betterment of our family as a whole*


We'd say the same. :smthumbup: Mine likes me to go to Coin shows with him.. he always wants my input on what he's thinking of buying...big purchases I mean....this is HIS expertise, not mine....I always tell him...."this is your thing, buy it baby...you know what you're doing"..... but still he'd run it past me... it's just HIS WAY....and honestly, I love that... appreciate that he is geared this way, he wants our decisions to be a joint agreement...


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

jld said:


> KathyBatesel, can you talk more about relationships where one person has low self-esteem but the other person regards them highly? My dh has been trying to build my self-confidence for 20 years, and tells me he sees me very differently than I see myself.
> 
> Also, it is amazing how well you know yourself and your relationships. Is that just a gift, or did you just spend a lot of time educating yourself on this subject?


Thanks, jld. I have spent a lot of time educating myself - decades, really, both in and out of the classroom. 

Although I have been struggling with self-esteem issues over the last couple of years, it would be accurate to say that low self-esteem isn't exactly a familiar state to me. I underwent quite a bit of trauma on several levels about five or six years ago, and the recovery has been challenging, but until then, I was usually perceived as "arrogant" or "aloof" instead. Shrug... I didn't question whether I had a right to make a choice or not. I always acted in my own life, until I heard ENOUGH people say that I was (insert criticism here.) I was too independent, too insensitive, too blunt, too self-centered. These complaints ultimately "proved" themselves to me when a series of events showed me how powerless I was in the long run. I got divorced, the kids all moved out on their own and we had power struggles there, too, and then I made a terrible decision to relocate for a dating relationship with a full-blown narcissist. HA! What a mess I got into! 

But you asked a specific question about low self-esteem w/ partners who see them differently. It will take a bit of explaining to describe what I hope to: 

First, I believe that our self-esteem is part of a cycle... We have a perception of ourselves that comes from what the people around us tell us about ourselves. If we grow up hearing that we're smart, we believe we are smart. If we grow up hearing that we are beautiful, we believe we look great. 

Next, we find "evidence" of the beliefs we adopt. For instance, if a child grows up in a household where she constantly hears she is worthless, she's likely to befriend people who treat her badly, because this will prove that her worldview is correct. In fact, she would feel uncomfortable with someone who treats her very well, because that'd be outside of her comfort zone. Conversely, a child raised to think that the sun rises and sets on her very existence will likely develop demanding traits and she'll find friends who support THAT idea instead - more passive types who don't mind being followers. 

Because this is mostly an unconscious (or subconscious) process, changing our worldview is very hard to do. We automatically perceive the things that enforce our beliefs, and discredit those that don't. We can actually see this on a global scale with entire groups of people, if you look up information about denial surrounding events like 9/11 and the Holocaust, but we experience it constantly at a personal level. (One example can be found at Psychologists Explain 9/11 Denial Despite Hard Scientific Evidence : Conscious Life News).

Anyway, if I have low self-esteem and I want to change it, there's really only one way I know how to. I have to learn to see what others value in me, and I have to believe that they genuinely see it. This involves a certain amount of trust, and it involves being around people who might initially be a little uncomfortable for me to be around - outside my comfort zone. 

In the five years or so since I went through such a devastating experience, finding myself in a place where I knew nobody at all, hundreds of miles from any friends (and I only had a few good ones in the first place!), and working in an environment where fraud and being a "yes man" were all-important, and where I was completely single and having a hard time finding social events where I could meet people (not a churchgoer), I became utterly convinced that I could not fit in at all. I would never belong. 

I am trying to find a way to connect with more people on a regular basis, yet I keep making excuses not to. I know that the excuses are fear based. "What if I find confirmation that I'm worthless?" Yet the rational part of my mind knows that I CAN find the positive if I'll just look for it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Thanks a lot, Kathy. I really appreciate the time you put into that. It sounds like you have had quite the whirlwind of experience in your life. Thanks for sharing it with us.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

jld said:


> Thanks a lot, Kathy. I really appreciate the time you put into that. It sounds like you have had quite the whirlwind of experience in your life. Thanks for sharing it with us.


Did you find anything there that can help you with your own self-esteem issues?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> Did you find anything there that can help you with your own self-esteem issues?


I think I have to start believing what dh tells me. Another friend on the board mentioned this. I always feel like he is just being nice to me, that because he loves me, the things he says must not be true. 

But I am learning things from being on these boards, from listening and observing a lot of honest people. And I am hearing some of the same things dh says. So maybe he is not just being nice, maybe it is true. 

It is really important to me to know the truth about things. I can't just pretend things. They really have to seem true to me to believe them.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

jld said:


> You know your situation best, and if your wife truly cannot handle the real you, then perhaps what you are doing, at least for now, is the way to go.
> 
> But this makes me very, very sad for you. I hope you have family or friends you can be your whole self with. Everybody needs that.


Don't feel sad for me. I learned this about my wife when I started my business. In retrospect I don't think she cared at all that it was slow getting off the ground. I now believe she was feeding off my anxiety and insecurities. I was a wreck during that time. Not at all the confident man she met. I told her everything I was feeling. What I needed during this time was her to believe in me. What I got instead was pity. Pity does not equal sexy. That's why I don't over share anymore. 

It doesn't bother me in the least. It would be a lot worse if I never picked up on it. I would probably be posting about a whole different set of problems on TAM.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I want to ask a question.

What effect do you guys think today's culture has on the way power is shared in relationships?
Does gender have any effect on the power differential?
In other words which is the genders is more likely to hold more_ real_ power in a heterosexual , monogamous relationship?

Take for instance two people male, and female in a relationship.
They go out on a date, have fun and enjoyed themselves to the max. Lots of chemistry on both sides.
The guy drops the lady off at her home expecting her to invite him in, instead she just kisses him goodnight.
Right there was a show of _her_ power, he wanted access, she said NO.
Not that she doesn't feel the chemistry, but she said NO.

Here's another example.
Husband and wife looking at a movie , nice romantic setting, kids upstairs in bed ,when husband decides to get frisky. Wife responds with some kissing and groping. Husband was always the adventurous type , so he begins to remove wife's clothing and she objects. She says; "_ NO, not here dear, the kids might see us. Lets go upstairs in our bedroom."_
Husband sighs and by the time they reach upstairs he's no longer interested in sex, because he wanted to have sex _downstairs_. The risk of the possibility of getting caught was what motivated him in the first place to suggest they spend the evening looking at the movie , _downstairs_in the TV room. He had everything planned, and he thinks she ruined his plan by saying no to sex _downstairs_.
Wife is in bed next to him frustrated wondering what did she do wrong this time. Both retire for the night in their separate corners of the bed harboring resentments.
Both got caught in a power struggle without even knowing it.

Who's wrong , who's right?
Or are they both just unaware?
How could you have resolved that impasse?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ReformedHubby said:


> Don't feel sad for me. I learned this about my wife when I started my business. In retrospect I don't think she cared at all that it was slow getting off the ground. * I now believe she was feeding off my anxiety and insecurities. I was a wreck during that time. Not at all the confident man she met. I told her everything I was feeling. What I needed during this time was her to believe in me. What I got instead was pity. Pity does not equal sexy. That's why I don't over share anymore.
> 
> It doesn't bother me in the least. It would be a lot worse if I never picked up on it. I would probably be posting about a whole different set of problems on TAM*.


It doesn't bother you - and you're thankful to learn of it... and that's great, in this way YOU ARE comfortably compatible with your wife Feeling this way. 

Because this has been your personal experience Reformed Hubby, I wonder if you would advise ALL men to never show this side of themselves.. I know the other poster I mentioned, he would be quick to advise men to NOT show this side of themselves.. but always the MAN IN CONTROL side.... because of his personal experience...

When men come on here and ask if they should write a letter to their wives expressing their feelings, you get a variety of responses here.... and really it's NOT "black & white" by any means.. I always respond... *It DEPENDS ON YOUR WIFE.*..

Because My husband didn't want to come off as Needy in our past... we missed each other, he would have been FAR BETTER off opening up to me ... ya know.. instead of taking the MANLY Route, can't let her know I am hurting... This actually angers me looking back. .... It wasn't until I started coming off as more "needy" sexually that I discovered more of his vulnerable side....and it brought us closer than I ever thought possible...It was always good but it got so much better ! Whirlwind better... .. He would have opened up to me then had I taken the time to dig ... but I was just a little too pre-occupied. 

It does not make me see him less in any way....everyone has moments of doubt, some insecurities, *this is just being Human,*.. Of course it is comforting -seeing our men take charge in a Crisis...giving some direction out of the pit... when we are falling apart emotionally..and need someone's strong hand to hold on to... this is Bravery / courage really. I think of that Lion on The Wizard of OZ...some may feel as him.. but he grew on that yellow brick road... 

For me...I guess I feel - whether they share these feelings or not... (like the Lion started out)...they are still there... sharing them t some degree ... is like a release & depending on how we respond....a deep acceptance all wrapped in one...this can even be healing....and can give MORE inner strength.. 

Now my husband is like any other man, not going to show his weaker side on purpose..(most I have seen in the past is tears at his Fathers funeral & an old friends)...he's always been very stable & in control of his emotions ... I can't say we've had any huge crisis's though..... with me I dig it out of him...and I am so thankful he can go there with me... . and I encourage him and build him UP...I love doing that. 

Maybe it would be different if I seen him falling apart in front of me, I don't know...hmmm. Though like in Jld's situation...learning a child has Cancer...I'd expect the same reaction that her husband had...


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> I want to ask a question.
> 
> What effect do you guys think today's culture has on the way power is shared in relationships?
> Does gender have any effect on the power differential?
> ...


In your examples I don't really think either party was wrong or right. I kind of see it as an example that being the leader doesn't give you complete control. There will always be areas where one spouse has veto powers even if the other one is the head of household. The one poster that talked about spheres of influence really captured this. 

The second example wasn't all that bad. She was still offering sex. I'd assume most men would have went ahead with it and all would be well.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

My thoughts in bold...



Caribbean Man said:


> I want to ask a question.
> 
> What effect do you guys think today's culture has on the way power is shared in relationships?
> 
> ...


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> It doesn't bother you - and you're thankful to learn of it... and that's great, in this way YOU ARE comfortably compatible with your wife Feeling this way.
> 
> Because this has been your personal experience Reformed Hubby, I wonder if you would advise ALL men to never show this side of themselves.. I know the other poster I mentioned, he would be quick to advise men to NOT show this side of themselves.. but always the MAN IN CONTROL side.... because of his personal experience...


I hope my answer doesn't disappoint you but yes I would advise most men not to overshare. In my mind I think its one of those things that sounds good, but it can really mess up a relationship if it shows a side of you that is significantly different than the man they fell in love with. The problem is the way that most women would respond to a man who discusses his insecurities is usually the exact opposite of what that man needs at that time.  I also think it took me down a notch as far as how my wife viewed me. I may start a separate thread on this. Its only somewhat applicable to CM's topic.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> It doesn't bother you - and you're thankful to learn of it... and that's great, in this way YOU ARE comfortably compatible with your wife Feeling this way.
> 
> Because this has been your personal experience Reformed Hubby, I wonder if you would advise ALL men to never show this side of themselves.. I know the other poster I mentioned, he would be quick to advise men to NOT show this side of themselves.. but always the MAN IN CONTROL side.... because of his personal experience...
> 
> ...


Once my wife saw me falling apart . I was under tremendous financial pressure,and business wan't doing well. The stakes were very high and the cards stacked against me. She got really scared and didn't know what to do. She started crying and shaking because she knows that I am very hard to break.
I promised myself never to allow that to happen in front of her again.
I know she can't handle it.

I tend to shield her from any financial or business related difficulties I might have. However I know she is fully behind me.
She is on my side.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Once my wife saw me falling apart . I was under tremendous financial pressure,and business wan't doing well. The stakes were very high and the cards stacked against me. She got really scared and didn't know what to do. She started crying and shaking because she knows that I am very hard to break.
> I promised myself never to allow that to happen in front of her again.
> I know she can't handle it.
> 
> ...


I think some of your post may have been cut off but I know exactly what you are talking about. This fall in the U.S. the government shutdown due to political infighting. This meant my business made hardly anything during this time. I knew if it went longer than two months I was going to have to layoff a lot off people. I didn't bother talking to my wife about how scared I was. If I did it would have been a repeat of the past. 

Being the leader aka the Captain of the ship often means that you have to put on a brave face when you don't feel like it. It just comes with the territory.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ReformedHubby said:


> I hope my answer doesn't disappoint you but yes I would advise most men not to overshare. In my mind I think its one of those things that sounds good, but it can really mess up a relationship if it shows a side of you that is significantly different than the man they fell in love with. The problem is the way that most women would respond to a man who discusses his insecurities is usually the exact opposite of what that man needs at that time. I also think it took me down a notch as far as how my wife viewed me. I may start a separate thread on this. Its only somewhat applicable to CM's topic.


It doesn't disappoint nor surprise me at all, I expected you to answer just as you did! 

I fell in love my husband BECAUSE he was the sensitive type -lets say Romantically geared...his mushy love for me.... had he not had those things going on but been more ...I don't know... a symbol of power & dominance...a little aloof emotionally....if I struggled to feel his "Best friend" in life...his willingness to share it all openly... I really believe I would have gotten bored with that.....

I go for those deep thinkers and sharers... I love that sort of thing (I mean if a man has enough ALPHA to go along with it, that's the superior package all the way)... 

It's probably why I get addicted to forums like this... facebook bores me cause it's all "surface talk".. but on here...we get to hear all the buried junk.. .places others can't go with each other -for the reasons you just gave...

I think we all need someone to talk to sometimes.. it says in







.... men need to talk to other MEN...*don't take it to your wives.*... (this has never hurt us at all)... 

Though I can see in many stories here , through the experiences shared ..this Author knows of what he speaks!!...

Husband just walked past, I asked him how he feels on this subject..... he says "IF you want to keep the woman, you can't share your insecurities with her..that makes you look weak, women don't like that"...... 

Then he added looking at me.."You're weird"... Ha ha



> *Caribbean Man said*: *Once my wife saw me falling apart . I was under tremendous financial pressure,and business wan't doing well. The stakes were very high and the cards stacked against me. She got really scared and didn't know what to do. She started crying and shaking because she knows that I am very hard to break.
> I promised myself never to allow that to happen in front of her again. I know she can't handle it*.


But my question remains..where do you GO with all of that... don't you need someone to talk to? if not her...maybe God? ... Or just "working it off" / putting all that energy into brainstorming how to conquer the dilemma...... I don't know....

It's like I mentioned, we haven't had difficult trials (infertility was harder on me-he was My Rock)... probably the worst on him was when I broke up with him while dating..I don't remember him crying, falling apart in front of me.. but it did tear him up..we've talked about it a few times over the years... (He didn't talk to anyone, I just asked...I guess men don't need that - like us women do!)


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I think we all need someone to talk to sometimes.. it says in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was going to ask you to get your husbands opinion on this topic. He also answered exactly like I thought he would. I haven't read No More Mr. Nice Guy but I agree with the author's advice. Nobody wants a whiny man, and there is a fine line between sharing insecurities and just plain whining.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

RH and CM, I just have to say I disagree with you. 

I think sharing your whole selves with your wives should be the eventual goal. What are you scared of, anyway? That she will see the real you? That you will have to be just yourself, your real self, in front of her?

Do you think I wanted to see dh crying? Do you think either of us wanted to face ds's cancer? Do you think we want to face his risk of an early death now?

How else do people grow and actually get strong enough to handle challenges, except by being faced with challenges? 

Or is growth not the goal?


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> But my question remains..where do you GO with all of that... don't you need someone to talk to? if not her...maybe God? ... Or just "working it off" / putting all that energy into brainstorming how to conquer the dilemma...... I don't know....


I'm not a guy, and can't speak for the male experience, but a few things I have noticed in this regard that lead to my conclusion: 

1. Men don't talk about emotion, but they do communicate it - often through staying busy, sometimes with non-verbals, and sometimes through silence. 

2. As a woman who has learned to interpret beyond what is said, I have found that men I've known appreciated when I understood what they were experiencing and put it into words for them in a tactful way. (They weren't too appreciative when I was overly direct, as I often am.) 

3. Men experience as deeply if not more deeply than women. They take longer to make important decisions and are slower to recover from emotional hurts, even if they don't show it. 

So my conclusion is that men "GO" to action in the same way women GO to friends and talking, but it can be hard for us to understand. I've sometimes used a comparison that we measure intelligence by examining how well an animal performs tasks that we humans are good at. We can perceive whether they obey commands, so we assume that a trained animal is more intelligent than an untrained one. Yet if the standard for intelligence was determined by an ability to locate dinner using only one's sense of smell, humans would be the universe's idiots. We can't relate to or measure that, so it's beyond our ability to fully understand even if we can imagine it. And so it is with men and women at times.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

We say the word "power". 

Carribean Male talking about "power differentials", in short would be:

1. Do we spend more time on my stuff or your stuff, or is it closer to balanced
2. Whose viewpoint do we tend to operate out of? Is someone in charge, or responsibilities are balanced?
3. Whose priorities get attention, and how much attention?
4. What type of light or attention do I cast on you, and vice versa?
5. Am I expected to defer to you in an argument, or do you stonewall me and not listen, or are we logically discussing a point for how it best fit our situation.

All this stuff is very simple. The problem is in real life a large majority of people will be selfish and make a 2 person situation revolve around their priorities, operate on their time, and generally take charge of a good chunk of the other persons life.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

SA, were you surprised by your husband response? 

If my H knows my question come from something TAM related he just won't give me a serious Answer. He is a outlier anyway with a lot of these issues. He won't talk much about feelings but unlike most men he tend to wear his feelings on his sleeve.

Let's see we went from balance of power to men expressing their feelings...interesting


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> I think some of your post may have been cut off but I know exactly what you are talking about. This fall in the U.S. the government shutdown due to political infighting. This meant my business made hardly anything during this time. I knew if it went longer than two months I was going to have to layoff a lot off people. I didn't bother talking to my wife about how scared I was. If I did it would have been a repeat of the past.
> 
> Being the leader aka the Captain of the ship often means that you have to put on a brave face when you don't feel like it. It just comes with the territory.


Yes.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

RH and CM, if I may be so direct: What are your goals in your relationship? Just to hold it together? Or to really become one?

I'm getting the feeling that we may all be coming from different places in what we want out of our marriages.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

jld said:


> RH and CM, if I may be so direct: What are your goals in your relationship? Just to hold it together? Or to really become one?
> 
> I'm getting the feeling that we may all be coming from different places in what we want out of our marriages.


JLD I understand completely what Reformed and Caribbean are saying and it just seems to be one of those difference between men and women. Not ALL men of course but probably most. And relationships also. As much as it may seem to be bad for the man and the relationship in your eyes it simply works for others. You just have to accept that even though your H and relationship may not work that way it doesn't mean it won't work for others.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jld said:


> RH and CM, I just have to say I disagree with you.
> 
> I think sharing your whole selves with your wives should be the eventual goal. What are you scared of, anyway? That she will see the real you? That you will have to be just yourself, your real self, in front of her?
> 
> ...


Yes I agree with you,
In principle.
Those are the ideal goals to aspire to.

But in my case my wife came from a very sheltered life. She is very risk averse. She doesn't know what it means to _not have ._
She doesn't know how to handle trauma.
My wife even purchases everything cash because she hates hire purchase. She hates to owe anybody.
I'm not saying that she'w an entitled princess, far from it. She's a very hard worker and built herself.
But the type of risks I took to start and grow our business she couldn't possible understand.
I have no problem with taking risks once the rewards are worth it.She on the other hand become very afraid when faced with that kind of stress.

I'll give you an example.
Early in our marriage I came across an opportunity to purchase a property at a half the market rate. A business friend of mine went through a bitter divorce , and decided she wanted to migrate. She liked and respected me so she gave me the first option to purchase. 
I told my wife, but my wife didn't see the opportunity, instead she saw the risks, the mortgage , she thought would be an additional burden and we already had our own home.
I tried to explain to her that I wasn't purchasing the property for us, but my idea was to flip it and and make some money from the deal.
She thought it was too risky and we couldn't afford it, so I backed down. 
Another person acquired the property and in six months, did exactly what I wanted to do. Made over tons of money on the sale.

My wife has seen me cry only once when my grandmother died.
I was very fond of my grandmother.
She understands when I need space to concentrate on my problems.
She understands how I get when things aren't good.
She understands that whenever I fail I simply get back up , dust myself off and try harder, and she's always there , cheering me on, giving me the support I need , whether financial or otherwise.

But if I break down, she gets afraid for me, and she will panic.
I'm naturally a happy type of person, she's naturally a happy type of person. 
But I've seen how she reacts when confronted with traumatic situations,and it's not good.

One time I was helping a neighbourhood friend of mine install some razor wire on one of her properties, and I accidentally got a nasty cut when one of the barbs hooked my knee cap. Lots of blood and the bone was clearly visible.
My wife began to cry. I wasn't crying, but she started crying. 
Its just the way she is when anything happens to me , so I have to be careful of what I offload on her.

so I don't really view it as me withholding parts of myself from her, but me protecting her from unnecessary trauma.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jld said:


> RH and CM, if I may be so direct: What are your goals in your relationship? Just to hold it together? Or to really become one?
> 
> I'm getting the feeling that we may all be coming from different places in what we want out of our marriages.


Oh my wife and I are most definitely ONE!
But I understand what her capacity is emotionally, and I won't forgive myself if I knew that something I did broke her down , or shattered her innocence.
It is just the way she is.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

treyvion said:


> We say the word "power".
> 
> Carribean Male talking about "power differentials", in short would be:
> 
> ...


Yes.
Especially #5.

And I like your last paragraph too.
Some people just give selflessly all the time without even asking for anything in return , and some people always just take.
Just for them to give way to their partners wishes is a huge task for them because they're accustomed being in control of the relationship. They see no _need_ to change the dynamic.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

committed4ever said:


> JLD I understand completely what Reformed and Caribbean are saying and it just seems to be one of those difference between men and women. Not ALL men of course but probably most. And relationships also. As much as it may seem to be bad for the man and the relationship in your eyes it simply works for others. You just have to accept that even though your H and relationship may not work that way it doesn't mean it won't work for others.


Yes, I am very clearly understanding that what works for dh and me may not be the norm.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> I'm not a guy, and can't speak for the male experience, but a few things I have noticed in this regard that lead to my conclusion:
> 
> 1. Men don't talk about emotion, but they do communicate it - often through staying busy, sometimes with non-verbals, and sometimes through silence.
> 
> ...


Absolutely YES to this^^^.
Sometimes I channel my stress into stuff like working out in the gym, fixing things [ I think I'm a bit OCD , not quite sure.] or sometimes art.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Yes.
> Especially #5.
> 
> And I like your last paragraph too.
> ...


Alot of the takers think you can't "see" them. Another viewpoint is you both have a "job" and yours is to "help" them.

The "givers" aren't necessarily going around giving out freebies, they may be kind and willing to help a friend. Not realizing some are rat holes.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jld said:


> Yes, I am very clearly understanding that what works for dh and me may not be the norm.


How does your husband handle traumatic events?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

CM, I appreciate where you are coming from. 

I should say that I am transparent with dh. He probably is not with me. Okay, I know he is not. We had lived in India for almost 3 years when he finally told me why he had put soda bottles full of water on the drains in the bathroom in our bedroom. Before I arrived in India, he woke up a few times to rats having crawled up from the sewers into our bathroom. He could tell from the way they had chewed the soap. He knew if he told me that, I would not accept to come to India. So he put those bottles on the drains, and when I asked what they were for, he said it was to just keep anything that might come in out. I didn't know what that meant, but maybe I did not want to know, either.

You're right. I don't really want to know everything. But I am not sure that is right, either. Dh and I are very close, but I bet we would be even closer if he were as transparent with me as I am with him. I tell him everything of any importance in my life, and I don't think either of us would want it any other way.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Alot of the takers think you can't "see" them. Another viewpoint is you both have a "job" and yours is to "help" them.
> 
> The "givers" aren't necessarily going around giving out freebies, they may be kind and willing to help a friend. Not realizing some are rat holes.


And right there is where the power differential is exploited and the relationship goes way off course.
One partner feels entitled and treats the other like a doormat.

The question is , how does one put balance back into a relationship with such an imbalance?
How do they change that dynamic without upsetting the apple cart?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> How does your husband handle traumatic events?


Well, I explained a few posts ago how he handled hearing our son's cancer diagnosis 4 years ago.

Ds relapsed a year ago. His chance of long term survival is very low now. We both know it, and we both admitted to each other a few months ago that sometimes we each just start crying spontaneously about it when we are alone.

Yes, it is frightening to see your man cry. Dh is even-tempered and naturally calm and composed. He doesn't take things personally. Would not think of leaving the room when I yell at him. Does not show stress from work. Basically can handle a lot.

But yes, hearing his son had cancer was his breaking point. Scared the **** out of dd and me. We had never, ever seen him like that, and never, ever, not even in the face of a seeming death sentence like cancer, expected to.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> And right there is where the power differential is exploited and the relationship goes way off course.
> One partner feels entitled and treats the other like a doormat.
> 
> The question is , how does one put balance back into a relationship with such an imbalance?
> How do they change that dynamic without upsetting the apple cart?


In same sex relationships, we either cut off or pull back from friends we realize where sitting purposely in the "to recieve" position...

It's what we found you have to do in opposite sex relationships too. Most times you cannot control it, that's how they see it and you won't nudge them into doing you right. Leave them alone.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jld said:


> CM, I appreciate where you are coming from.
> 
> I should say that I am transparent with dh. He probably is not with me. Okay, I know he is not. We had lived in India for almost 3 years when he finally told me why he had put soda bottles full of water on the drains in the bathroom in our bedroom. Before I arrived in India, he woke up a few times to rats having crawled up from the sewers into our bathroom. He could tell from the way they had chewed the soap. He knew if he told me that, I would not accept to come to India. So he put those bottles on the drains, and when I asked what they were for, he said it was to just keep anything that might come in out. I didn't know what that meant, but maybe I did not want to know, either.
> 
> You're right. I don't really want to know everything. But I am not sure that is right, either. Dh and I are very close, but I bet we would be even closer if he were as transparent with me as I am with him. I tell him everything of any importance in my life, and I don't think either of us would want it any other way.


I think too that relationships evolve over time.
My guess is that from that India experience you would have had a deeper insight in how he communicates difficult stuff?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think we are cross posting here, CM. But I am going to go ahead and write this.

The more I think about this, the more I think that "protecting" me should probably not be dh's goal. Leading me, guiding me, because he is smarter and older and wiser and just has good ideas, yes. But I am really wondering, as a result of this discussion, if this whole "protecting" thing is a good idea. And I am going to speak to him about it.

I am not a baby. I can handle things, even when I don't want to. You just find a way to cope. I don't think people should be "protected" from truth. That is the problem with religion and right wing ideology. Does not encourage growth.

I would encourage you to rethink your strategy with your wife. I am guessing she is used to wealth. My brother made a fortune in the tech sector, and his children are probably similar. There are some things they truly cannot understand because they were not exposed. Now, after all these years, I wonder if they can even begin to understand. And no one wants to offend my brother by trying to open their eyes.

You are not doing her any favors, CM. You could guide her in opening her eyes. That truly would be a favor to her.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jld said:


> Well, I explained a few posts ago how he handled hearing our son's cancer diagnosis 4 years ago.
> 
> Ds relapsed a year ago. His chance of long term survival is very low now. We both know it, and we both admitted to each other a few months ago that sometimes we each just start crying spontaneously about it when we are alone.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry I missed that post.
Sometimes I multitask while I'm here.
Sorry to hear that about your son.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jld said:


> I think we are cross posting here, CM. But I am going to go ahead and write this.
> 
> The more I think about this, the more I think that "protecting" me should probably not be dh's goal. Leading me, guiding me, because he is smarter and older and wiser and just has good ideas, yes. But I am really wondering, as a result of this discussion, if this whole "protecting" thing is a good idea. And I am going to speak to him about it.
> 
> ...


I understand your perspective.
But I think maybe in her own timing she will open her eyes.
At least that's what our marriage counselor told me during my individual one on one session with her.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Well, in my opinion, even if you don't want to be transparent with her on a personal level, at least don't shield her from truth. Talk about economic inequality. Point out why she has what she has. Is wealth always justly acquired? Were the people who were part of gaining that wealth treated the way she would like to be treated in their place? And yet she is the one who benefits from their contribution.

We lived among rich people in India, and it was nauseating to hear my millionaire neighbor tell me that poor people are poor _because they don't know how to manage their money._


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

committed4ever said:


> *SA, were you surprised by your husband response?
> 
> If my H knows my question come from something TAM related he just won't give me a serious Answer. He is a outlier anyway with a lot of these issues. He won't talk much about feelings but unlike most men he tend to wear his feelings on his sleeve.*


No, not surprised at all, I can always count on his true feelings if I ask a direct question... of course women are attracted to men who have Leadership Ability, can stand in the darkest storms, take our hand and comfort us...be that strong tower for their families...

It wouldn't matter if it had anything to do with TAM ..he trusts my judgement on what I might share or not. 



> *ReformedHubby said*:* I was going to ask you to get your husbands opinion on this topic. He also answered exactly like I thought he would. I haven't read No More Mr. Nice Guy but I agree with the author's advice. Nobody wants a whiny man, and there is a fine line between sharing insecurities and just plain whining.*


Well for him..(the insecurities thing).. the only time he would share with me is *if I ASK*...a curiosity thing...we're having a heart to heart....I'd be discussing mine too.

He's never been Whiny...this man is always happy..he's kinda amazing in this way...... I'd say he downplays any pain TOO MUCH....again not to burden anyone or make them excessively worry... once we ate at a Chinese Rest... I was fine, but he got really sick afterwards, I was worried...but he downplayed it....he KNEW had he spoken how he REALLY was feeling...I would have demanded we go to the Emergency room..like NOW..... this comes up months later in conversation.. he tells me he thought he might have died that night.. (very nice- what if he did -I'd want to kill him all over again)... 

It was fortunate he had 2 days off right after it hit...but still ....gotta watch that man. If he is looking ill, it is likely worse than it IS. Just like with sex in our past, I had no freaking idea he was suffering, cause he was always happy.. I was happy! I do remember him being more Cross / short with the kids....that's it ! The man has ranted about his boss, a few co-workers, that's about it. ...I guess he is Alpha in this way -huh!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SA, I hear you. I insisted on taking dh into the dentist one Sat am because he was lying on the bed, his tooth hurting so bad. He was just lying there silently, but I knew something was wrong. He protested going, but when we got there, the dentist said it was an abscess and gave him Demerol. 

When you have a dh who is not a complainer, it can be helpful to kind of watch out for them. Their tolerance is pretty high.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I'd say he downplays any pain TOO MUCH....again not to burden anyone or make them excessively worry... once we ate at a Chinese Rest... I was fine, but he got really sick afterwards, I was worried...but he downplayed it....he KNEW had he spoken how he REALLY was feeling...I would have demanded we go to the Emergency room..like NOW..... this comes up months later in conversation.. he tells me he thought he might have died that night.. (very nice- what if he did -I'd want to kill him all over again)...


So, 
I'm back for a while.
Sorry about my absence I had a meeting.

Thanks for your post SA.
This reminds me of a very similar experience I had many years ago with my wife.

We were vacationing on another island and I decided to go scuba diving with my cousin and a Dutch couple. Lots of coral reefs etc on that particular island
Anyway, something happened on that dive , I panicked under water and almost drowned because of inexperience. When I surfaced my body was in convulsions , I was gasping for air and I was vomiting ..
All of this happening whilst we were way out in the water. If I wasn't a good swimmer I would have probably died, but I'm comfortable in deep water as I am on dry ground .
Anyway , after we boarded the boat and came back inland, I didn't tell my wife anything , because I didn't want her panicking and I didn't want to upset her. We were supposed to have diner with some people.Also, people have dived and drowned in that area before.
So I just kept it quiet.
The next day we had another dive in another location and I went again, of course nothing bad happened, and I was over what happened before. I knew exactly what had happened, why it happened and I love diving.

I told my wife after we returned home from that island. Of course she was upset, not because I didn't tell her [ well she was a wee bit upset about that.] but because I almost died.

But she understood and was supportive.
Funny thing is, a couple times after when hanging out with some other guys and I mention it to them we might laugh about it , and they poke fun at me. But she doesn't think it's funny.

Since that event, everytime I go diving she warns me about that incident and tells me to be very careful.

So it isn't that I hide stuff from her, I just have to be very measured and careful how I tell her certain things , because I know there are some things she just can't take all at once.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jld said:


> SA, I hear you. I insisted on taking dh into the dentist one Sat am because he was lying on the bed, his tooth hurting so bad. He was just lying there silently, but I knew something was wrong. He protested going, but when we got there, the dentist said it was an abscess and gave him Demerol.
> 
> When you have a dh who is not a complainer, it can be helpful to kind of watch out for them. Their tolerance is pretty high.


jld,

I had saved this piece some years ago, from an article I read about balancing power in relationships.
My thinking somewhere along this spectrum :

"_ Power factors can be very important when it comes time to resolve basic relationship conflicts and come up with a solution that is fair to both. If the partners are emotionally mature, the more powerful person will not take advantage of his or her position. *The goal should be to find reasonably balanced good chemistry along with reasonably balanced good maturity so that power issues can be dealt with constructively...*_"

What do you think?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

jld said:


> RH and CM, if I may be so direct: What are your goals in your relationship? Just to hold it together? Or to really become one?
> 
> I'm getting the feeling that we may all be coming from different places in what we want out of our marriages.


I think we want the same things. I have just realized like CM, that unloading on my wife is unhealthy for our relationship. It makes her feel over burdened. It also makes me feel like she is pitying me and I really hate that feeling.

My wife has seen me cry once, about two years ago my wife received a misdiagnosis of the the worst kind. I won't get too much into the details but we thought she had cancer and it looked really bad. I held it together for a few days. I was looking at her watching TV and I just ran to the next room and completely lost it. She came in and held me. I felt like I her let her down. I was the one that was supposed to be putting on a brave face.

It turned out that what we thought was cancer was a rare infection that actually looks like cancer, it took multiple biopsies to figure it out. To this day my wife teases me, "I know you love me because you cried!!!". To be honest I'm still embarrassed by it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I think we want the same things. I have just realized like CM, that unloading on my wife is unhealthy for our relationship. It makes her feel over burdened. It also makes me feel like she is pitying me and I really hate that feeling.
> 
> My wife has seen me cry once, about two years ago my wife received a misdiagnosis of the the worst kind. I won't get too much into the details but we thought she had cancer and it looked really bad. I held it together for a few days. I was looking at her watching TV and I just ran to the next room and completely lost it. She came in and held me. I felt like I her let her down. I was the one that was supposed to be putting on a brave face.
> 
> It turned out that what we thought was cancer was a rare infection that actually looks like cancer, it took multiple biopsies to figure it out. To this day my wife teases me, "I know you love me because you cried!!!". To be honest I'm still embarrassed by it.



Love this, so touching.

That's exactly the kind of emotional transparency women LOVE!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> jld,
> 
> I had saved this piece some years ago, from an article I read about balancing power in relationships.
> My thinking somewhere along this spectrum :
> ...


See, we don't have power struggles here. And I rarely have them with my kids. I am all about transparency and active listening and apologizing and basically making sure everybody feels good with everybody else by finding a solution everybody can agree on, if at all possible. 

I do insist on communication. I am the communication leader, because I think it solves most problems. I cannot stand a lack of harmony in my relationships.

When dh and I see things differently, we talk about it. And sometimes I get upset. But he is very calming. And he likes to hear my thoughts. He tells me that talking with me is one of the things he likes best to do. So there is no struggle to communicate.

And because I don't hide things from him, communication is that much easier.

We do have some things we have to agree to disagree on. He voted for the wrong party 6 years ago. Still horrified by that. Maybe someday we will resolve it.

I don't get things like silent treatment or someone saying he will only go so far with his spouse and no farther. Sounds awful. And all these little power games. Who has time for that? 

But to avoid it, you have to have clear, honest, open communication. And that requires trust. Another subject in itself.

Did I answer your question?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

RH, I think your wife is tougher than you think. She is probably tougher than I am if she held you when you cried. I was just standing there horrified when dh was crying, those awful first days of diagnosis.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You know, I wish my dh would post here. He is very busy working all the time, but it would be a good balance to what I say.

I think he would say he has trouble communicating, as he is naturally an introvert. But when he wants to, he really communicates well. But I have to stay quiet long enough for him to do it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

This is our second marriage and we married later in life. I had raised a family (and was the "leader", but didn't want to be) and he had been master of his own ship with no dependents for a long time when we met. 

I have said this before and have been challenged on it but...I honestly don't think there is a power differential in our marriage. We're both powerful, we use the POJA, we have our own money, we both work, we have no small kids, we both have separate hobbies...and we don't have some of the dynamics many people talk about as far as "one of you must be leading". It just isn't that way with us.

At certain moments, he may be "in the lead". But it will be a momentary thing, like when he takes me on a date.

I actually take HIM on special dates to pamper HIM, and at those times *I* am "in the lead".

We don't do it this way because neither of us wants to lead. We do it this way because we are both adults and are interdependent. I am really unsure why it is assumed there "must" be a leader with interdependence...there really doesn't have to be one.

We are autonomous. We are differentiated. Yet we are madly in love and would appear to be connected at the hip to an outside observer.

People use the analogy of dancing, but women can be excellent leaders in dancing...there is no gender that is a better leader.

When it comes to sexual dynamics, all power is "pretend" anyway. No one actually has power over another human being.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> My wife has seen me cry once.... I held it together for a few days.


How? 

I cry over the silliest things, and I try EVERYTHING not to. Clearing my throat, coughing, blinking, thinking of something else, but no avail. I can't seem to get control over my danged eyes!


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

jld said:


> You know, I wish my dh would post here. He is very busy working all the time, but it would be a good balance to what I say.
> 
> I think he would say he has trouble communicating, as he is naturally an introvert. But when he wants to, he really communicates well. But I have to stay quiet long enough for him to do it.


I can relate to this jld, as I don’t show my emotions or communicate well. It’s one of the things I have to get better at. I think it stems from wanting to always show a strong front to your partner. I know that is not the right thing to do, but it’s a mindset. My wife always tells me that she appreciates that I show a strong front, but letting your emotions out is just as strong as a brave face.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Also wanted to throw in the comment...I'm glad my husband doesn't try to hide himself from me.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Eagle3 said:


> I can relate to this jld, as I don’t show my emotions or communicate well. It’s one of the things I have to get better at. I think it stems from wanting to always show a strong front to your partner. I know that is not the right thing to do, but it’s a mindset. My wife always tells me that she appreciates that I show a strong front, but letting your emotions out is just as strong as a brave face.


I believe men learn at an early age that if they show weakness, they get taken off the playing field. 

Women don't experience that the same way, so we value that transparency more, within reason. I do love that my guy can show his vulnerable side at times, though I've only seen him tear up once. I've known men who take their stoicism to such an extreme that they have difficulty even empathizing with others.

On the other hand, if he cried one-tenth as often as I do, I probably would lose respect for him. Hypocritical, perhaps, but true. He, on the other hand, finds my tears to be funny most of the time (movies, etc.) and is traumatized if I'm crying because of something that happens between us.


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

Women say they want men to get all sappy but its amazing how unattractive they find it once a man does get all emotional. That's not a knock on women either, I hate sharing my feelings as much as women instinctively dislike it from men.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I've never asked any man OR woman to "get all sappy".

Sharing themselves with me? Yes.

There's no reason that sharing oneself necessarily has to be "all sappy".


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I've never asked any man OR woman to "get all sappy".
> 
> Sharing themselves with me? Yes.
> 
> There's no reason that sharing oneself necessarily has to be "all sappy".


I have no problem saying whats on my mind but revealing my weaknesses and insecurities seems like too big of a concession.


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> On the other hand, if he cried one-tenth as often as I do, I probably would lose respect for him. Hypocritical, perhaps, but true. He, on the other hand, finds my tears to be funny most of the time (movies, etc.) and is traumatized if I'm crying because of something that happens between us.


This is a great response as this is exactly how I view it. I don’t mind at all when my wife is crying or what about. If I gave you the list of movies that can trigger this for her I would prob be asked to leave TAM. But no matter who or why I show the support needed or my best to. But for what you said above is on my mind. Even though it’s not in my nature if I was the one always crying or being overly emotional I would feel there would be a loss of respect. Again I am not saying if this is right or wrong just how I view it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> When it comes to sexual dynamics, all power is "pretend" anyway. No one actually has power over another human being.


Are you sure? It sure feels real.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Eagle3 said:


> I can relate to this jld, as I don’t show my emotions or communicate well. It’s one of the things I have to get better at. I think it stems from wanting to always show a strong front to your partner. I know that is not the right thing to do, but it’s a mindset. My wife always tells me that she appreciates that I show a strong front, but letting your emotions out is just as strong as a brave face.


You are so sweet, Eagle, and so wise. It is as strong as putting on a front. I think it's stronger.

Dh is just not very emotional. He is even-tempered and just takes things in stride. Things have to be really, really bad to bring on tears.

And the more we talk about this, the worse I feel about being horrified to see him cry. I really have to accept him as a human being, and not the Super Hero I feel he is.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jld said:


> Are you sure? It sure feels real.


We'll dang, sounds like that comment belong in SIM...and some more details....


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jld said:


> Are you sure? It sure feels real.


You mean, like when he "makes" you swoon?

Or "makes" you horny?

Or "makes" you do something sexual and you enjoy it?

I can make an argument for any of those, that you could shut it off like a valve in certain circumstances...therefore, you have the power over your own valve.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

@FW

I just don't feel like I can say no to him. The trust is just very strong.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I think some people are confusing power with control, and power differential with power struggles.

Power struggles come because there is a lack of understanding on how to address the differential or how to share power in a relationship

There is nothing intrinsically bad about a power differential , and it exist in EVERY relationship whether business/ client ,parent/child , pr , financial/shareholder and husband/wife. 
Like I said before, it exists because we are different and have different strengths and weakness.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

No, it doesn't. Sorry.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Quant said:


> I have no problem saying whats on my mind but revealing my weaknesses and insecurities seems like too big of a concession.


I think if a woman gets close enough she would be able to see her man's weaknesses. 
Women are very intuitive.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> I think some people are confusing power with control, and power differential with power struggles.
> 
> Power struggles come because there is a lack of understanding on how to address the differential or how to share power in a relationship
> 
> ...


Can you explain the difference between these, with examples maybe? 

I feel like I'm back in college.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jld said:


> @FW
> 
> I just don't feel like I can say no to him. The trust is just very strong.


You don't want to ever say no to him because you trust him so much. If he made one or several wrong moves to where you didn't trust him any more, would you still feel you could never say no to him?

Trust isn't him having "power" over you.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

And no jld...my post # 100 was to CM.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> I think if a woman gets close enough she would be able to see her man's weaknesses.
> Women are very intuitive.


Questionable. We are not all very intuitive. Or maybe my dh just keeps things in very well. 

Or maybe I don't pay enough attention?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> You don't want to ever say no to him because you trust him so much. If he made one or several wrong moves to where you didn't trust him any more, would you still feel you could never say no to him?
> 
> Trust isn't him having "power" over you.


Okay . . . what is it then?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

JLD, if your H suggested your son try some quack cancer treatment that you had no faith in...what would you do?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> JLD, if your H suggested your son try some quack cancer treatment that you had no faith in...what would you do?


No. Okay, I get it now. Blush.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> No, it doesn't. Sorry.


Can you elaborate?

Are you saying that people in relationship don't have power?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> JLD, if your H suggested your son try some quack cancer treatment that you had no faith in...what would you do?


And right there^^^ is where the power issue comes in, in relationships.

Hypothetically speaking,if she tells her husband NO would he listen?
Or does she feel that she must agree with her husband because he knows what's best?

If he listens and takes her feelings into serious consideration, then the power is balanced or she might have the upper hand.

If she feels that she _must_ agree with him,and is afraid to challenge of give a contradictory opinion, then a negative power differential exists.

People who are mature and aware enough would be able understand where each other is coming from, and work it out.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

You are arguing that EVERY relationship has a power differential, and I am saying, no, some do not have a differential but an equal balance of power.

Some relationships DO have a power differential, but not all, as you have claimed.

There is always the Marriage Builders very extensive and documented program to check out, just as one example of a marriage plan that never even once mentions the word power or differential, yet can boast tens of thousands of books and programs sold. Their message board is full of people who are using the program and yet none of them mention power or a differential. They are the creators of the POJA, by the way.

I'm just giving that as one example of a large and established marriage program that doesn't promote a power differential, not saying it is something people should do.

I'm not saying that if there is a power differential, that it is a bad thing. I'm just saying there are some relationships, such as my own, where there isn't one.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> You are arguing that EVERY relationship has a power differential, and I am saying, no, some do not have a differential but an equal balance of power.
> 
> Some relationships DO have a power differential, but not all, as you have claimed.
> 
> ...


If there there wasn't a power differential, then a couple wouldn't need a Policy Of Joint Agreement, because their thinking would be the same in every single instance. There would be no differences of opinions between them. That's like a person getting married to their clone.
The POJA is not a replacement for the power differential in relationships, but an excellent way of managing it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

So you are saying that simply having different opinions is the same as a power differential? Sorry, I still disagree. Having an opinion has nothing to do with power.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> So you are saying that simply having different opinions is the same as a power differential? Sorry, I still disagree. Having an opinion has nothing to do with power.


No, I'm not saying that.

Have you ever felt vulnerable at any time in your relationship?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jld said:


> Questionable. We are not all very intuitive. Or maybe my dh just keeps things in very well.
> 
> Or maybe I don't pay enough attention?


jld,
I think you _know_ your husband...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Not sure what you mean but no, not really.

When we share ourselves, we are both vulnerable emotionally. Has nothing to do with a power differential. He has no problem being emotionally vulnerable with me too, he does it all the time. I don't know if that is what you mean.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Not sure what you mean but no, not really.
> 
> When we share ourselves, we are both vulnerable emotionally. Has nothing to do with a power differential. He has no problem being emotionally vulnerable with me too, he does it all the time. I don't know if that is what you mean.


Are you saying that both of you felt the exact same weaknesses , at the exact same times , and for the exact , same reasons?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

CM...I'm saying what I already said, and I'm really sorry but your opinion doesn't make something true. It is a matter of opinion.

There is not a power differential in our relationship. That's what I am saying. There really isn't going to be some way for you to lead me down some path to where you end up making me say "oh dear, you are RIGHT there IS a power differential."

There isn't one, and that's that.

Again, if there is one on other relationships, I'm not saying that is good or bad. I'm just saying there isn't one in EVERY relationship.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Ok,

Sorry,I just thought that you were _open_ to discussing it.
That's all.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I enjoy discussing the topic, as well as many topics...I'm just not open to saying that my relationship has a power differential, because it doesn't.

I'm curious if you have any other literature or basis for claiming that "all" relationships have a differential or if you just came up with it yourself?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Why?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Because if there is such literature, I would want to read it.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Because if there is such literature, I would want to read it.


Just Google " _Power Differentials in Relationships_ " and you would get books, articles , blogs , and lots more.

You can select any one you agree with, or you can choose not to ignore.

PS.
_I found about the term " Power Differential" from our marriage counselor, probably over 15 years ago._


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

So many interesting posts here! I wish I had more time to respond!

But really quick: The POJA is designed to ensure there is no power differential; if a couple follows the POJA, no one does anything until/unless both parties are enthusiastic. The thoughts/wishes/opinions of both parties get heard, and no one gets steamrolled.




Caribbean Man said:


> Hypothetically speaking,if she tells her husband NO would he listen?


POJA can only work if both parties are able to communicate and understand each other. It can also only work if both parties respect each other.



> Or does she feel that she must agree with her husband because he knows what's best?


Per POJA, her thoughts are equally as important. No one would just agree without some thought behind it.

In fact, one of the strengths of the POJA is that both parties brainstorm, and usually this takes advantage of the strengths of both parties- the old saying "two brains are better than one" and can think up risks/benefits that aren't often seen with only pair of eyes.



> If he listens and takes her feelings into serious consideration, then the power is balanced or she might have the upper hand.


Well, if the best one spouse can do is take one's feelings into serious consideration, then there is definitely a power imbalance, because it implies that one spouse is going to do what s/he wants to do, regardless of the other's feelings. 



> If she feels that she _must_ agree with him,and is afraid to challenge of give a contradictory opinion, then a negative power differential exists.


 Definite power imbalance here as well.



> People who are mature and aware enough would be able understand where each other is coming from, and work it out.


This last scenario is the only one that is in line with POJA. Each party communicates clearly and without disrespect, each party listens carefully and without disrespect, and the action taken is one to which both parties enthusiastically agree.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I don't mean about the topic, I mean about you stating that all relationship have power differential.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

RoseAglow said:


> POJA can only work if both parties are able to communicate and understand each other. It can also only work if both parties respect each other.
> 
> 
> Per POJA, her thoughts are equally as important. No one would just agree without some thought behind it.
> ...


Ok.
I understand what you are saying about the POJA and agree to an extent.
But here's an example of a power differential in a marriage.

Lets say two professionals got married, husband a doctor, wife is in finance.
The couple wants to invest some money. Husband doesn't know much about finance, but the wife does.
Even though they both agree to let her handle the investment portfolios, a power differential exist because he has to trust her to do something that's not part of his strength.
Professionally his strength lies in medicine.
She is stronger than him in that area, so a power differential exist there, even though they both agree.
The JOPA doesn't get rid of that differential, but it helps the couple to navigate through it.

If they were both professionals in finance, then there would be no differential in that area, but it would come up from time to time in other areas of their marriage, in favor of one or the other.

The ability to successfully handle it depends on the emotional maturity of the couple.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Quant said:


> *Women say they want men to get all sappy but its amazing how unattractive they find it once a man does get all emotional. That's not a knock on women either, I hate sharing my feelings as much as women instinctively dislike it from men*.


Awe this is just not true for all of us...I mean that ...some of the things my husband has said in a moment...it'd be like a line from the most Romantic of movies..as far as unleashing his inner feelings of adoration & love to me... he's teared up saying things to me... then I start balling...... then we start







how pathetic we must look.....how if others could hear us they'd be gagging..







... oh we have a full range of emotions with each other.... but it's so FUN...and beautiful...I always write these things in my journal ...as they set me on the highest mountain...with the love of my life.

I would never want those taken away, his having the freedom to share that deeply.. some things are priceless.. but can I say....

I was voted "*Most Romantic*" on 2 TAM awards threads in social.... so this explains it !...have done 2 threads on Romance ... 1 of them here ...me & he would both be considered "hopeless" :










I do, however, agree with what you said.. have seen it many times...women say they want Romantic .. but then she seems to get bored with the man who is *too Loving* to her... never could relate to that..:scratchhead:


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> I think some people are confusing power with control, and power differential with power struggles.
> 
> Power struggles come because there is a lack of understanding on how to address the differential or how to share power in a relationship
> 
> ...



I agree with most of your posts but I think you are off base with this. Power is exactly about control. Power struggles are completions for control. You are taking a concept of relationship balance and using a name that is not appropriate because of all the other connotations of the word power. Just call it relationship balance instead. Otherwise I see that a lot of the underlying dynamics you mention is true.

Faithful Wife is correct in that there exist relationships where the balance is equal. You have been calling it a differential. Well the property of all differentials is that there exists a zero difference. So you should admit that there are marriages with no power difference. Let me describe how this can be. 

Contrary to the aphorism knowledge is not power. Knowledge only becomes power when it is exploited for advantage. Having knowledge and not using it is exhibiting no power. In the example you provided me earlier with the lawyer the assumption was that he had a greater power differential because he knew more law than i did. I called you out on it because I believe it to be false. He may know more law than me but that doesn't matter because I can hire/fire him as I choose and this alters the power differential. The contract I have when I engage people is what counter balances the power of the relationships. Even with the lawyer it is really about relationship balance and power is a term that confuses the concept you are trying to convey. 

I like Faithful Wife claim to have no power differential in my marriage. How can this be? We have differing opinions on all kinds of things. We also have different desires with respect to many things. The thing that equalizes the balance for us is the process we follow to reach agreement on action. First we fact find and educate. Often we only know part of the facts relevant. Second we have in mind the goals for the marriage and ourselves. We then choose the solution that is best for our joint goals. We also have a notion of whose goals are being archived and whose are lacking and we seek to balance it. This is a process that goes beyond even the POJA as its called. That's how we balance our relationship. It explains short term deviations in the balance and how there is swing to equalize. 

In our marriage we often have times where we want to be driven and not think about stuff. We recognize that and sometimes onenofmus takes over to drive while the other is weary. 

It's all about balance and not about power. Power comes from exerting force to control that is exactly what power is. Remove the term from your concept and it will be misunderstood less.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Ok.
> Lets say two professionals got married, husband a doctor, wife is in finance.
> The couple wants to invest some money. Husband doesn't know much about finance, but the wife does.
> Even though they both agree to let her handle the investment portfolios, a power differential exist because he has to trust her to do something that's not part of his strength.


I think if the couple is using POJA, they will have worked out some agreements, even if the wife is much stronger in her knowledge. Just on the fly, I am thinking- they will need to agree on how much of their budget goes into investment portfolios, whose $ and %s go into bills, vacation funds, education funds (if they aren't included in the investments), so there is still a lot of room for negotiation.




> Professionally his strength lies in medicine.
> She is stronger than him in that area, so a power differential exist there, even though they both agree.
> The JOPA doesn't get rid of that differential, but it helps the couple to navigate through it.
> 
> If they were both professionals in finance, then there would be no differential in that area, but it would come up from time to time in other areas of their marriage, in favor of one or the other.


I think I see what you're saying- the wife is much stronger, e.g. more powerful, in the area of finances, yes? I see this more as a difference in personal strengths and skill-sets, rather than a power issue. Sort of like how my husband is the better handyman and can fix anything, whereas I do the coupons/shopping deals to keep us on-budget. 

When I think of a power issue, I think of one spouse who clearly drives the relationship. I think of relationships were one person "wears the pants". Usually on TAM I see it in marriages where one spouse is afraid of making the other one angry and will go to great lengths to avoid conflict. Maybe I am using different definitions though than you intended in your OP.



> The ability to successfully handle it depends on the emotional maturity of the couple.


 Yes, totally agree with this!


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

RoseAglow said:


> When I think of a power issue, I think of one spouse who clearly drives the relationship. I think of relationships were one person "wears the pants". Usually on TAM I see it in marriages where one spouse is afraid of making the other one angry and will go to great lengths to avoid conflict. Maybe I am using different definitions though than you intended in your OP.


See, I am not the only one who is hung on the term. It detracts from what you are trying to say.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Right - meson and Rose, I agree.

And I'm not trying to be all like "ain't no man ain't got no power over me!" in some feministic cry, either. That's not my point at all. My point is simply that there are ways to create a nice power balance and maintain it in a relationship. I have seen posts like this from CM before and have challenged him on his notion that there must always be a differential...I just don't believe there "always must" be one and so far, I don't see any evidence anywhere that this is a fact. It seems to be CM's opinion and I respect it as an opinion.

I also understand that some relationships have a built in power differential and it can work just fine...so nothing against anyone who happily lives in a relationship like that. I can see many benefits to one person being the leader of the family. It is just not my style and therefore wouldn't work for me. That's why I would not partner with someone who felt strongly that they "must" lead or that they have more power (in general) than I have.

Yin yang is a balance of power, chi, etc. I don't see why the concept of equality of power isn't easily accepted, it is an ancient idea.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

meson said:


> IThe thing that equalizes the balance for us is the process we follow to reach agreement on action. First we fact find and educate. Often we only know part of the facts relevant. Second we have in mind the goals for the marriage and ourselves. We then choose the solution that is best for our joint goals. We also have a notion of whose goals are being archived and whose are lacking and we seek to balance it. This is a process that goes beyond even the POJA as its called. That's how we balance our relationship. It explains short term deviations in the balance and how there is swing to equalize.


I'll admit that I don't know much about POJA. As an outsider it just seems so complicated. I'm glad it works for the folks that it works for, but I'd much rather have complete control over some areas and yield control of the areas that I am weak in to my wife. I will do some reading on it, but my initial impression is that it would make the decision making process more difficult just so that both parties will feel equal. Whats the point of that?

I'm still stuck on the there is no such thing as equal vibe. I say this because people can be influenced. I honestly believe that most people that believe they are equal are being influenced by their spouse. They just don't realize how much it factors in. There are plenty of men walking around thinking they are wearing the pants. Unbeknownst to them their wives are pulling the strings.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Lol, RH. I read somewhere that if a wife tells people it's an equal marriage, she's in charge. If she says he's in charge, it's an equal marriage.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> So you are saying that simply having different opinions is the same as a power differential? Sorry, I still disagree. Having an opinion has nothing to do with power.


Having a different opinion isn't a power differential. 

But negotiating a solution ALWAYS involves a power differential. 

So yes, in this sense, I believe there is no such relationship where power differentials are absent.

Here's a simple example of how this might play out: 

ME: "Honey, what would you like for dinner tonight?" (I am OFFERING him the _power_ to make a decision that affects me.)

HIM: "Let's have steak." (He exercises this power.)

ME: "Oh, I don't have any steak thawed. How about if we go to Outback Steakhouse?" (I seek to exert some power here. In the process, I am denying him some degree of the power I previously offered.)

He can OFFER or DENY me that power depends on how he responds. If he says, "Nah, we just went there last week," he is essentially blocking my bid for power. If he says, "What a great idea!" he is granting me that power. 

Another word for power as it applies in relationships is "influence." 

I doubt most of us think "How much influence do I have in our relationship?" But if just one of the people doesn't feel like they have enough influence, they will experience it as a power imbalance. If there is a high degree of power exchanges, the couple is less likely to even notice these power exchanges, so I'm guessing that you and your husband, FW, probably actually make a gift to each other of "submission" many, many times in your interactions, where an unhappy couple makes many denials of submission instead.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Kathy...no doubt, you have it pretty close. But I just still see no overall differential. Saying that influence is power, sure, ok. We influence each other all the time, we share and trade on chores, we disappoint each other, we don't always follow the POJA because we aren't perfect robots...yes daily there are ups and downs of power and influence.

But none of that means that one of us is "the leader".

And jld...I'm not sure why it has to turn into a "she must not be a good submissive wife if she is saying there's no leader". I mean, wow, really?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Want to add in real quick...we do both have so much power. We are larger than life to each other in our little love movie. Why does there have to be a leader just because there is power on both sides? Why is that so hard to believe or accept? Honest questions.

I'm not saying our way is perfect or that anyone else should do it like we do. I just don't get why my way is being doubted.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> Having a different opinion isn't a power differential.
> 
> But negotiating a solution ALWAYS involves a power differential.
> 
> ...



I think this is an accurate description of what takes place in most if not all healthy relationships / marriages.

If you desire of want a certain reaction from your partner, then in reality you want to exert a certain amount of control over your partner, whether or not we wan to accept this as fact.
Control in this context isn't necessarily bad.
We _want_ our partners to love us alone, not because they promised to, but because it makes us feel loved and fulfills a basic , human need.
Right there is a power exchange, _we don't want them to love another._<-- that right there, is about control. Is that form of control bad? 
No.
Why? Because it was agreed upon?
No.
Because it makes us feel good, it fulfills one of our basic _needs_.
When two people agree to love each other exclusively, and set goals, that is a power exchange. Along that continuum , there are tremendous amounts of compromises , disagreements , agreements , giving way to each other at various times to lead, or even agreeing that one person takes the lead. All of these and many , many more are power exchanges.

I think that we pride ourselves in that we want to speak the 
" language of equality " in our relationships which is ideal. But power issues don't dissolve simply because two people are in love and have set relationship goals and ambitions. If fact, when these relationship goals and ambitions are agreed upon, even more issues of power arise , even more compromises and concessions have to be made because nothing happens without power.


I think we are looking at a complex multidimensional issue from a linear perspective.
French philosopher Foucault said ," _Power is everywhere and comes from everywhere._" ~ Michel Foucalt , "_The History Of Sexuality._"

I know as a matter of fact that there are also social constructs which automatically place power differentials in heterosexual relationships in the form of gender roles. These roles favor the male gender, and this in turn tends to influence some of the power exchanges in relationships.

Just another angle this can be seen from.

"_ Power is everywhere and comes from everywhere..._" ~ Michel Foucalt .


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> And jld...I'm not sure why it has to turn into a "she must not be a good submissive wife if she is saying there's no leader". I mean, wow, really?


Uh oh. Did I say that somewhere? I don't remember saying that. What did I write that made you think that? That little joke I found?

FW, if anything, I put way, way more responsibility on the man in a relationship than the woman. When I hear about marital problems, I automatically wonder what the man has done (or not done) to cause those problems. I've caught some flack on that, and I am willing to listen to why I may be wrong . . .

And I hate this idea that a woman has to be submissive. A woman, or a man, for that matter, should be what she or his is. No pretending. No faking. No playing a role. Just be yourself. That is how a person will be happiest.

I have a lot of respect for you, FW, and I would probably hesitate to even question you, much less offend you. You just seem very, very knowledgable in the field of human relations, esp. alternative style human relations. I think many of us are learning a lot from you. Thanks!


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

KathyBatesel said:


> Having a different opinion isn't a power differential.
> 
> But negotiating a solution ALWAYS involves a power differential.
> 
> ...


We went through something exactly like this this example on Sunday. I agree that you delegated some balance to your husband to determine dinner and that he exercised it. But the fact that the steak wasn't ready to cook doesn't alter the balance of the negotiation. It is a circumstantial fact that constrains the options from which you added another option. It was one that he could have offered as well. I call this part of a decision making process discovery. Discovery is not necessarily influential or a power play but it can be.

Now there is another way this could have happened which is an example of manipulation (I am not implying that you did or would do this Kathy). Suppose you didn't want to cook and you wanted to eat out in the first place. If you know he will chose steak if offered a choice and you made sure that none was available to cook you can make it look like you are trying to satisfy his desires by manipulating his responses to get your desire. This is a controlling power play. This kind of manipulation does happen and I can bet that there are plenty of spouses who don’t see this going on. But just because this kind of thing happens doesn’t mean there is no such thing as equality or balance in decision making in the long term.

This is how the situation went down for me on Sunday. I had to work Sunday and had forgotten to take out the pork roast to thaw. There was not enough time for me to cook the roast in the first place and I had no idea what to fix for dinner. So at I asked Mrs. meson what she wanted for dinner. She didn’t know either and I mentioned how my plans had failed. She then thought of something from my repertoire that she liked that I hadn’t made in a long time and suggested Monte Cristo sandwiches. By doing that she took the balance but worked it from my point of view knowing what I usually cook. She was working in part for what I wanted and what she wanted (something yummy she hadn’t had in a while). I agreed and this shared the balance of the decision for dinner between the both of us. The interesting thing is that a couple of weeks ago I had wanted to make them sometime anyway but I had forgotten about it. In this example there is both submission and influence in the decision making process. Because the give and take in our process in regular and even, I call our power division equal or balanced over time.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

ReformedHubby said:


> I'll admit that I don't know much about POJA. As an outsider it just seems so complicated. I'm glad it works for the folks that it works for, but I'd much rather have complete control over some areas and yield control of the areas that I am weak in to my wife. I will do some reading on it, but my initial impression is that it would make the decision making process more difficult just so that both parties will feel equal. Whats the point of that?


The point is for a couple to work towards a common goal where each spouse does not become disenfrancised. I would rather invest some time in my partners involvement than to cut them out of the process because i am an "expert" in something. Even experts make bad decisions. 



ReformedHubby said:


> I'm still stuck on the there is no such thing as equal vibe. I say this because people can be influenced. I honestly believe that most people that believe they are equal are being influenced by their spouse. They just don't realize how much it factors in. There are plenty of men walking around thinking they are wearing the pants. Unbeknownst to them their wives are pulling the strings.


There is a whole spectrum in the distrobution of balance in a marriage. In some marriages it may be the female and in some the male. In same gender marriages one may influence on more or the otherway around. But there are also marriages where the spectrum between the extremes is realized. Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean that there are marriages that are on average equal in balance. I am influenced by my wife and she is influenced by me. But neither of us are puppets of the other.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> I think this is an accurate description of what takes place in most if not all healthy relationships / marriages.
> 
> If you desire of want a certain reaction from your partner, then in reality you want to exert a certain amount of control over your partner, whether or not we wan to accept this as fact.
> Control in this context isn't necessarily bad.
> ...


:iagree:

Yes, just because we are in love doesn't mean there will be equality. We each need to step up and have our needs met in our marriage. And you are right it is about feeling and feeling satisfied and good. If this is missing from either partner then the partner has the right to request it. This may or may not be a balance for the marriage but I agree it is an exercise of power to request change.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jld...I'm sorry, I interpreted your post #133 as to be at least partially directed toward me. And the only reason I took offense was because I'm sitting here saying "there's no leader" and then your post basically was saying "if the woman says there's no leader, it means she is the leader".

I just wondered why what I'm saying couldn't just be accepted as the way things are for my relationship....BUT...if that isn't what you meant than *I* apologize for being whiny.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

meson said:


> The point is for a couple to work towards a common goal where each spouse does not become disenfrancised. I would rather invest some time in my partners involvement than to cut them out of the process because i am an "expert" in something. Even experts make bad decisions.


Thanks for the feedback. I can't speak for anyone else's relationship but in mine my wife doesn't feel disenfranchised if she isn't part of a decision, she actually expects me to make most of the difficult ones on my own. That's probably why its so hard for me to conceptualize why so many posters in this thread put so much effort into making things equal. Our balance is shifted more towards me. She would tell you that as well. 

As for the whole equal thing. I have no doubt that a lot of people believe they are equals and even feel like it. I just can't get there as to how its possible. If anything it may shift back and forth. But 50/50 all the time?


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## bobbieb65 (Jan 24, 2013)

Okay, I'll admit I never saw the power struggle in out M for the first 18+ years:sleeping: My H works and I'm a SAHM/W. It wasn't until we were in MC in 2011 that he mentioned the imbalance in our M. He thought I was being controlling but I was just trying to keep us from getting into debt and get him to curb his excessive drinking at home in front of our son. So for over 18 years we silently let the resentment build At one point he gave up drinking at home and took over finances...didn't drink at home for almost 10 years and in less then a year had saved money but put us in debt with credit cards.  

Once this was addressed in MC, he understood what and why I did what I did and I understand how he felt but it doesn't change the past and what has happened. We both thought the other was being controlling when in reality neither had any control and the M was on autopilot. It took a lot of MC and work to get us on track for the first time.:smthumbup:

These days I still control the home finances while he handles the ones at work. He deals with the company issues/problems and I take care of everything at home. He works hard all day and it's extremely stressful...he's taking over the family business with family still employed. Home is his safe harbor where he gets his down time and doesn't want to have to decide what's for dinner or which flooring we should go with:scratchhead: 

If we don't agree about something, we either compromise or one allows the other to have his/her way depending on who needs it more I don't see it as a power struggle but rather a delicate balance of yin and yang. He does what he's good at and ditto here There's no room for competition and control in a healthy M, only respect and compromise...or at least that's the way it works around here


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Are you guys saying there is a power differential in *all* friendships as well as romantic relationships? I just don't get why you don't see the obvious.

There is lead and follow dancing.

There is dancing all by yourself.

Then there is free styled, dancing together but not touching each other, each doing your own freaky thing, flipping your hair around, jumping like a dork type of dancing....NO ONE IS LEADING and yet both people dance, exactly how they want to, TOGETHER.

Not sure why this is such a weird concept. :scratchhead:

Do you assess who has "more" power in every encounter you make on the street? If you do, it seems like you must be really very concerned with power.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I think that's a crock and someone is trying to feed you a line.

We each have exactly as much power as we assign to ourselves, no more and no less. AND...that amount of power you have, no matter how much it is, is entirely a mental construct.

If someone else doesn't agree that you also have that much power, then your self-assigned power has NO power over THEM. Our individual self-delusions mean nothing to others, unless they decide to see your delusion along with you.

It is called autonomy. And we all have it, even though some of us may not want to.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Maybe it's just terminology, but I don't see power or submissiveness in any of the below examples.



2ntnuf said:


> If you want paid for what you write, do you do as you want, or do you write what you want, but within the guidelines of the audience?
> 
> Are you submitting to the authorizes that are considering paying you a fee for what you write?
> 
> ...


Writing to your audience is wisdom, if you want to get paid. I can see using "submission" here as in, the act of submitting an article for publication. Regardless of whether you write for your audience, or write something that is probably not of interest to the audience, it is the act of presenting your work that is the submission. I don't think my usage fits into this discussion though.

I work to my goals and deadlines in my job, but I don't think of that as Submitting to them. It is just doing my job. 



> If you decide to cook, and you make what you like, knowing he's eaten it before, who has the power and who is the submissive?
> 
> If he decides to cook, and he makes what you like, knowing you've eaten it before, who has the power and who is the submissive?


If I cook something for my husband that I know he likes, I consider that caring for him. I don't consider it an act of power, and I don't consider him eating it as an act of submission. It is me happily meeting of his emotional needs (in this case, domestic support.) 

I cook for my child, too, but this is not an act of submission in my framework, it is simply caring for my child, looking out for his well-being.



> If you do the bills and he does the laundry, who is the submissive and who has the power?


I honestly do not see either one as having power or being submissive. Bill paying and laundry are simply chores that need to be done, I don't see one as being better or stronger than the other. 



> I think there is power exchange in all things we do. I don't think we necessarily look at it that way. We just do what pleases us within the confines of the parameters set by our love for our spouse, our job, our morals, our upbringing, and our own personal, individual limitations.
> 
> At least, that's how I understand it. We are always transferring power/submissiveness in everything we do.


It seems that "power" is being used to describe any transaction between people or spouses. If so, it just doesn't line up with my own understanding of power. I agree that most transactions in a healthy relationship strive for balance- you each do the things that you enjoy, that are important to you, that work to serve the relationship/family, with agreement on all sides.

It's an interesting perspective.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Kathy...no doubt, you have it pretty close. But I just still see no overall differential. Saying that influence is power, sure, ok. We influence each other all the time, we share and trade on chores, we disappoint each other, we don't always follow the POJA because we aren't perfect robots...yes daily there are ups and downs of power and influence.
> 
> But none of that means that one of us is "the leader".


I like this question. 

It's sort of like a math problem, perhaps. 

3+7 = 2+19-11

They aren't identical, but they come out equally. If you try to do an exact comparison, at any given point the differential will be there. 

The 3 is NOT equal to 2. 
The 7 is not equal to 2, or 19, or 11. 

Yet the "big picture" shows it to be in balance. 

I'd say the differential exists at a micro level in many ways throughout the day, but I agree that the overall outcome can (should) be balanced overall.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I'll leave it to those who believe this concept, then. It is simply a matter of opinion.

If someone wants to provide some kind of factual evidence that there is a power differential in literally every human transaction, I'd be happy to read it.

Meantime...I'm dancing, my hair is flying around like a rock star, and I'm beautifully autonomous. No one need to submit to me, neither do I need to submit. Yin yang.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

This looks like a perfectly good example of a nice POJA to me. 




KathyBatesel said:


> ME: "Honey, what would you like for dinner tonight?" (I am OFFERING him the _power_ to make a decision that affects me.)


I don't see this as offering him power. I see it as seeking his preferences. 



> HIM: "Let's have steak." (He exercises this power.)


I don't see how telling you is preference is an act of power, unless you mean he is a mature, empowered individual who is not afraid to tell you what he wants.



> ME: "Oh, I don't have any steak thawed. How about if we go to Outback Steakhouse?" (I seek to exert some power here. In the process, I am denying him some degree of the power I previously offered.)


Again, I don't see this a power differential or a power play at all. It looks like a good brainstorming suggesting on your part.



> He can OFFER or DENY me that power depends on how he responds. If he says, "Nah, we just went there last week," he is essentially blocking my bid for power. If he says, "What a great idea!" he is granting me that power.


This is just such an odd perspective to me. I don't see him saying that he doesn't want to go to the restaurant as an act of power- I see it as an act of openness/honesty. Hopefully he would offer another solution, such as "Maybe we can try Logan's Steakhouse instead" or you can offer it, if it's something your interested in doing.



> Another word for power as it applies in relationships is "influence."
> 
> I doubt most of us think "How much influence do I have in our relationship?" But if just one of the people doesn't feel like they have enough influence, they will experience it as a power imbalance. If there is a high degree of power exchanges, the couple is less likely to even notice these power exchanges, so I'm guessing that you and your husband, FW, probably actually make a gift to each other of "submission" many, many times in your interactions, where an unhappy couple makes many denials of submission instead.


I see most of this conversation as being a good example of Care for each other, which I guess could also be another word for Influence. 

I have totally bought into Harley's definition of Marriage as a relationship of Extraordinary Care, where each spouses promises 1.) to care for the other as their priority, 2.)to become the expert at meeting the other's emotional needs to ensure each feel fully loved, and 3.) to protect the relationship both by avoiding behaviors that are harmful to the other and by establishing very strong boundaries so no outside forces can come between the spouses.

If a person feels like they lack influence or power in a marriage or relationship, the root of it is probably because their partner is showing insufficient care. The partner does not care about or value the other's input, contribution, etc. The partner doesn't care enough about the other to provide sex, affection, attention, [enter the lacking emotional need here]. 

I guess yet another perspective on this very interesting topic!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> jld...I'm sorry, I interpreted your post #133 as to be at least partially directed toward me. And the only reason I took offense was because I'm sitting here saying "there's no leader" and then your post basically was saying "if the woman says there's no leader, it means she is the leader".
> 
> I just wondered why what I'm saying couldn't just be accepted as the way things are for my relationship....BUT...if that isn't what you meant than *I* apologize for being whiny.


No problem. And I accept your description of your relationship. . It sounds like it is a great one!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Lol


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

KathyBatesel said:


> I like this question.
> 
> It's sort of like a math problem, perhaps.
> 
> ...


This is a good way of stating it. The balance is not 50/50 for each instant or decision but rather over time it averages around 50/50. It is a time series just like the arithmetic above that sums to be about the same and whose terms don't vary too much. This is the give and take I mentioned earlier. 

Not all couples do this but the ones that say they are equal follow this model. Ofcourse there are couples with clear leaders and the balance is one way only and they both may be happy about it. All I trying to do is to explain what equality means to me.


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## bobbieb65 (Jan 24, 2013)

Never in my life did I ever consider the complications involved in deciding what to have for dinner...:scratchhead:


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

RoseAglow said:


> I don't see this as offering him power. I see it as seeking his preferences.
> 
> I have totally bought into Harley's definition of Marriage as a relationship of Extraordinary Care, where each spouses promises 1.) to care for the other as their priority, 2.)to become the expert at meeting the other's emotional needs to ensure each feel fully loved, and 3.) to protect the relationship both by avoiding behaviors that are harmful to the other and by establishing very strong boundaries so no outside forces can come between the spouses.
> 
> If a person feels like they lack influence or power in a marriage or relationship, the root of it is probably because their partner is showing insufficient care.


It seems to me, based on your own words, that we're saying the same things using different words. 

When I used the dinner example, you said what I called "gifting power" was the same as seeking an opinion. Ok... yet in your response, you highlight that you believe _care_ is the basis of a good relationship, and that if someone "lacks influence or power" it is because the care is insufficient. 

care = influence = power

I believe some people have a hard time accepting the use of certain words if they feel like those words have a negative connotation. For some people, the idea of "power" implies someone EXERTING control against another person's will, yet that's not the only way to have power.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

meson said:


> This is a good way of stating it. The balance is not 50/50 for each instant or decision but rather over time it averages around 50/50. It is a time series just like the arithmetic above that sums to be about the same and whose terms don't vary too much. This is the give and take I mentioned earlier.
> 
> Not all couples do this but the ones that say they are equal follow this model. Ofcourse there are couples with clear leaders and the balance is one way only and they both may be happy about it. All I trying to do is to explain what equality means to me.


:iagree:

Meson,
I really like this post and Kathy's post which you respond to.
BTW , thanks for your participation in the thread and all of your contributions via your posts. 

My view is somewhat like yours .
The 50 / 50 model is really a power sharing agreement which is very workable and highly possibly based on how both participants interpret it. 
But first , both parties need to agree on what equality means ,_to them ,_ align it with their needs and realities.
I think in a marriage or relationship,at any given time between two people , there are tremendous exchanges and interactions happening whether consciously or unconsciously .
Being aware of this gives an advantage to a couple.

I will use the analogy of a simple pendulum.
As it swings from position A to B , it passes through a number of states in which energy is changed from potential to kinetic.
In order for it to complete its cycle , it must return to position A.
In order for it to perform it function it must continuously oscillate between A and B an the motion can be considered , 
" simple harmonic."

I think some of this can be applied to relationships . In order for a state of equilibrium ( 50 / 50 balance ) to be reached and maintained over its duration , the perception of the cumulative sum or " effect "of the power exchanges between both partners , A and B must be equal.
Both partners _must_ be satisfied.

Simple things like being aware and genuinely considerate of each other's needs can help. The reality is that internally , we all have our different strengths , weaknesses ,capabilities and temperaments existing in a state of flux at any given time. Hence the concept of a partner being " the stronger one " or the
" leader " in a marriage is ostensibly,a relative one.
A lot of misunderstandings come because of a lack of awareness.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> It seems to me, based on your own words, that we're saying the same things using different words.
> 
> When I used the dinner example, you said what I called "gifting power" was the same as seeking an opinion. Ok... yet in your response, you highlight that you believe _care_ is the basis of a good relationship, and that if someone "lacks influence or power" it is because the care is insufficient.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Correct.
There are many different types of power.
There is coercive power , which is exercising control forcefully against a person's will.
There is reward power , expert, referent, then there is discursive power, which can be controversial at times.
And the list goes on. But we all have _power_.

A person has power by virtue of being a human being in a society that bestow rights,the power of choice is an example.
When we get into a relationship or marriage , we still have that power , how we use it always affects the relationship . Relationships are supposed to empower both partners . That's one of the main function of a relationship.

Negative expression or use of power brings conflict , whereas , positive , collaborative use of power brings success .
( more power.)an example being , two people " putting their heads together" to set goals and solve the problems that inevitably arise.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

RoseAglow said:


> This looks like a perfectly good example of a nice POJA to me.
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *KathyBatesel* View Post
> ...


But by seeking his preference , you are offering him power over your thoughts and resultant actions.
How many other men's preference do you seek in _that_ way?
Obviously the answer is none.
So you gave him control of _that_ aspect of your life, in exchange for him doing the equivalent for you in the same , similar or maybe even a completely different circumstance.

Therein lies the power exchange.

Being in love with your husband / wife, puts your mind in a state that makes doing this feel pleasurable.

Hence the concepts of " _love Banks_ " and " _His Needs , Her Needs._"


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

meson said:


> This is a good way of stating it. The balance is not 50/50 for each instant or decision but rather over time it averages around 50/50. It is a time series just like the arithmetic above that sums to be about the same and whose terms don't vary too much. This is the give and take I mentioned earlier.
> 
> Not all couples do this but the ones that say they are equal follow this model. Ofcourse there are couples with clear leaders and the balance is one way only and they both may be happy about it. All I trying to do is to explain what equality means to me.


:iagree:

I was only saying 50/50 was impossible because I was taking it literally. The way you explained it makes perfect sense.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

CM noted: "*Hence the concepts of " love Banks " and " His Needs , Her Needs*.""

These are Marriage Builders concepts, which I would like to point out again, never mention "power" or "power differential" ever. These concepts don't really need to include the idea of power, I'm not sure why it is even a question. Have you ever read His Needs, Her Needs, CM? Or read the material at Marriage Builders?


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