# Question for the Wives



## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Why would you rarely perform oral sex on your husband when you know he loves it? 

I will be talking to the Mrs. on this later. I am thoroughly vexed. I am purposefully withholding information so I don't influence the feedback. I will share more about my particular situation later.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

These sorts of question are futile. The only person that can answer this is YOUR wife.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

MrsHolland said:


> These sorts of question are futile. The only person that can answer this is YOUR wife.


I have communicated my desires to her and I do satisfy her needs when do have sex. I am in great shape and have excellent hygiene. 

However, what if my wife may not actually know? Sounds weird, but there are a lot of factors in play here. She had an unpleasant experience in the past, felt pressured/manipulated in prior relationships, and is devoutly Christian. She tells me she wants to please me and I have never been turned down for regular sex, but somehow, someway, oral sex for me never seems to happen. If I bluntly request it, she may do it for a bit. 

I don't like pressuring her for obvious reasons. We have discussed this and it is obvious I like it, so if she doesn't volunteer when it is obvious, I'd don't like asking. I feel like I am begging.

I want to know what is going on inside her head.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Maybe she just doesn't like it. 


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Some women do not like to give oral for what ever reason they might have. She just might not like it.


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## cc48kel (Apr 5, 2017)

It's really not big on my list BUT if I was romanced some.... I would.. : ) Wine helps too....


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Some men have foot fetishes. I think it's disgusting. Therefore, there's no one I would ever love enough to enjoy them sucking on my toes. 


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Some women do not like to give oral for what ever reason they might have. She just might not like it.


Funny thing is, she has never told me that. I asked that several times. She has done it many years ago with other partners, quite often in fact, and has only done it rarely with me. I plan to dig deeper this evening when the kids are to bed. I will need to point out several logical fallacies here. I suspect that she is trying to protect me from something. 

Just a strange situation.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Maybe.....she does not like doing it....or feel like you are putting too much pressure on her to do it....or you don't taste good...or smell good.....or use too much force when she is doing it....lots of reasons


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

That would be my guess as well- sadly, that she just doesn't enjoy it. Perhaps due to the reasons you mentioned from her history. 

You say you just want to get into her head as to "why?" You've discussed it with her, but to what degree? Perhaps not extensively enough if you don't yet know why she is unwilling to this for you.


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

cc48kel said:


> Wine helps too....


Indeed, wine helps too...just not *too* much wine!
Good luck


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Some women are repulsed at the thought of someone some one sucking their toes. 

I could never be with them no matter how pretty, nice, successful and good of a person they are. 

Some people like certain things, while others find it distasteful. 

Some times someone not liking something is a deal breaker. 


And that's ok. sexual compatibility is a legitimate criteria.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Don't Panic said:


> Indeed, wine helps too...just not *too* much wine!
> Good luck


That would be fun...but she doesn't drink, anymore.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Finwe said:


> I have communicated my desires to her and I do satisfy her needs when do have sex. I am in great shape and have excellent hygiene.
> 
> However, what if my wife may not actually know? Sounds weird, but there are a lot of factors in play here. She had an unpleasant experience in the past, felt pressured/manipulated in prior relationships, and is devoutly Christian. She tells me she wants to please me and I have never been turned down for regular sex, but somehow, someway, oral sex for me never seems to happen. If I bluntly request it, she may do it for a bit.
> 
> ...


Well I feel for you man. If I was in your position then it would hurt and lead to resentment (actually have been in a worse position but that was in a past life). 

Can you two talk openly, honestly and without accusation? Whatever you do don't get into an argument about this subject.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Don't Panic said:


> That would be my guess as well- sadly, that she just doesn't enjoy it. Perhaps due to the reasons you mentioned from her history.
> 
> You say you just want to get into her head as to "why?" You've discussed it with her, but to what degree? Perhaps not extensively enough if you don't yet know why she is unwilling to this for you.


She says she is willing, but doesn't. When I request --- it is very reluctant or declined. I don't like begging either. Perhaps she wants me to be more forceful?


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

Finwe said:


> She says she is willing, but doesn't. When I request --- it is very reluctant or declined. I don't like begging either. Perhaps she wants me to be more forceful?


Saying "Listen, *****, suck my ****!" may or may not work. But if you get her really horny, just guide her head towards your ****. That might work.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Finwe said:


> That would be fun...but she doesn't drink, anymore.


Maybe that's the issue. She drank when she was with the other guys so that led to her being relaxed/drunk (or whatever) enough to do it with them.

She's sober with you and she just does not like it. Could be due to past experiences that were not good.


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

Finwe said:


> She says she is willing, but doesn't. When I request --- it is very reluctant or declined. I don't like begging either. Perhaps she wants me to be more forceful?


Perhaps do not request in the heat of the moment, not if there is tension with the act. You're right, begging is not attractive. 
Forceful? Maybe...but again, best not to "force" the act if you know she is reluctant. Could you try being more forceful/assertive with other items that ARE on the menu during sex? If she responds well to that it's a clue! 

Hopefully she will be open & honest with you when you speak with her in-depth tonight. At a neutral time. You said she doesn't drink any more....I'm in no way advocating a glass of wine if she has had a problem with alcohol, but if not, hmmmm...maybe a kind colleague shared a favorite Cabernet that you brought home? One, maybe two glasses and you've got your truth serum.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Finwe said:


> I have communicated my desires to her and I do satisfy her needs when do have sex. I am in great shape and have excellent hygiene.
> 
> However, what if my wife may not actually know? Sounds weird, but there are a lot of factors in play here. She had an unpleasant experience in the past, felt pressured/manipulated in prior relationships, and is devoutly Christian. She tells me she wants to please me and I have never been turned down for regular sex, but somehow, someway, oral sex for me never seems to happen. If I bluntly request it, she may do it for a bit.
> 
> ...


I am in the same boat. Begging is not very attractive. It is her body and she get's to set her boundaries. 

You have expressed your desires. Only she can change herself. 

It really doesn't matter what is going on in her head, if she has a valid reason or not. She gets to make those kinds of decisions about her body and what she does with it.

You now have to move on and try to find other sexual things that will satisfy your needs that she can meet. Otherwise, divorce her. It is really that simple.

P.S. My wife promised me oral sex prior to marriage, early in our marriage and when we discussed it with a sex therapist trying to save our marriage (which she did) my wife said she thought she could change herself, but it was too revolting and disgusting no matter how hard she tried. She thought that as love grew she would be able to do things she couldn't do when we were first married. But she couldn't.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

MrsHolland said:


> Well I feel for you man. If I was in your position then it would hurt and lead to resentment (actually have been in a worse position but that was in a past life).
> 
> Can you two talk openly, honestly and without accusation? Whatever you do don't get into an argument about this subject.


Thank you, that is why I am talking about it with her. I am having difficulty with resentment. Our sex life can be described as "a bit less than average" in every aspect. I will talk openly and honestly. I just want to know and have it decided one way or another. 

If it blows up in my face, at least it will be settled. I have been working on accepting that our marriage will be sexless. That is where we are headed. I am working on managing my sexual desire - she says that is foolish. Men have desires and they should be satiated by their partners. 

In our last talk, she said she wants me to take initiative more. I get it, as I have been so bored with our sex life that I simply am not interested and sex has become a significant source of stress. 

I wish my desire would simply go away. It would not be fair to her if I decided to go celibate. She does enjoy sex but is a selfish lover.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

manwithnoname said:


> Saying "Listen, *****, suck my ****!" may or may not work. But if you get her really horny, just guide her head towards your ****. That might work.


If only it was that simple. I have done similar things in the past, only to have discussions about manipulation, pressure, emotional connections, etc. I have to be assertive but not aggressive, I have to connect, but not be needy, I have to support her, but not be too supportive.


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## Peacekeeper (Apr 3, 2017)

I have to ask my wife 9/10, which is frustrating. She knows I like them but our "alone time" at night is tenuous with our youngest (3 yr old), who for some reason can't sleep through the night. At this stage of our life my wife just wants to skip the foreplay and get right to PiV sex. I rarely ask for bj's these days as a result. 


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Peacekeeper said:


> I have to ask my wife 9/10, which is frustrating. She knows I like them but our "alone time" at night is tenuous with our youngest (3 yr old), who for some reason can't sleep through the night. At this stage of our life my wife just wants to skip the foreplay and get right to PiV sex. I rarely ask for bj's these days as a result.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


This is one of our challenges. We have six children and the youngest is less than a year. We have moved twice in the past three years and my career has been profitable but stressful.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Well, my wife rarely offers me a BJ. Occasionally I will ask her for one and I may get something ranging from 30 sec to 2 min. It wasn't always like that. Before we had our 3rd child, we used to do 69 and I we used to give each other oral more frequently. After #3 was born, she says oral on her no longer feels good to her. Fingers are fine, but no mouth or tongue (except maybe 1 or 2 times a year if she's REALLY amped up). In may case it's pretty simple. I get oral if she can enjoy oral. As long as it no longer feels good to her, she feels no real incentive to give me oral. For some reason, the last birth must have damaged some nerves or something that makes oral not feel good anymore. Guess that 15 to 20 year run of more regular oral is nothing but fond memories now.


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## Peacekeeper (Apr 3, 2017)

Finwe said:


> This is one of our challenges. We have six children and the youngest is less than a year. We have moved twice in the past three years and my career has been profitable but stressful.


Wow, six kids?!? My hats off to you both. We have four kids, 3 - 10 yrs old, and the two youngest ones wear us out. I've already grounded my 3 yr old for the first month of her dateable life. 

Well, even though I hate asking for bj's, I am at least lucky that my W will do it without complaining (Usually.) Our 3 yr old will hopefully grow out of this phase soon (a year??) and she will move on to her "terrible fours". At this point I am praying for hope & change, lol...ugh.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Finwe said:


> This is one of our challenges. We have six children and the youngest is less than a year. We have moved twice in the past three years and my career has been profitable but stressful.


You have 6 kids and your youngest is less than a year old?


Dude!!! You are lucky to be getting anything at all in the sex department! Seriously you have no frigging idea the exhaustion that comes from parenting little ones!

Come back in 10 years!

Also, is there a reason why asking for a BJ is something you don't want to do? Why are you hesitant to ask? My husband is passive and I can't stand it. if your wife responds, sexually, to dominance in the bedroom then you are shooting yourself in the foot waiting for her. 

But again, with 6 kids, seems like you should be the one on your knees taking care of her since 98% of her daily energy is wiping butts, noses and fingers, table tops and toilet bowls. I'm thinking she's had her fill of other people's excremental fluid.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

My position on this subject is generally unpopular, but - I don't get it, and likely never will.

In relationships where you love each other, and truly want to make one another happy, I fail to see what the big deal is about doing things like this. I just don't.

It's not like it has to be a daily, or even weekly occurrence, for starters.

The act is FOR your partner. Not everything you do has to include some sort of immediate benefit to you. And besides, it does, when you get right down to it - your partner would (should...) appreciate it.

I have a theory. It's probably a little out there, but whatever. Women seem to do things like this more often when they're dating, or when things are casual. This typically means that the "return on investment" is low. It's almost as though it's a throwaway act. One thing you'll see a lot here is that husbands typically say that their wife used to give oral sex, but no longer do, or do far less.

A lot of people will say things like "well, she was doing it in order to get you" or something along those lines. While I don't doubt that occurs, I actually think it's far more psychological than that.

I think a lot of women view BJ's as a juvenile act. That it's something you do when you're dating, or even just casually seeing someone. It seems to me that a lot of women who used to do it and no longer do, didn't really think much about it at the time. And once they find a true partner, it's almost as though it's an insult that the man they love and perhaps married, wants the same thing that that dude you dated and had no future with wanted. Like at some point, giving a BJ is 'no big deal'.


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

OP - you'll have much better results after you've given your wife a couple of mind blowing orgasms. Are you proficient at that? After you've unselfishly blown her mind a couple or 5 times, then you lay her on her back, hold her hands above her head, and guide your d**k into her mouth and tell her to suck it. At that point if she's unwilling then she just does not like it.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> You have 6 kids and your youngest is less than a year old?
> 
> 
> Dude!!! You are lucky to be getting anything at all in the sex department! Seriously you have no frigging idea the exhaustion that comes from parenting little ones!
> ...


I get it. Having six children is very challenging for her and for me. She is the primary caregiver and I do my best to be compassionate in this area. Our sex life has suffered because of the kids and we both understand it. But how much is too much? We have been bordering on sexless marriage for the past year, a little more than x1 per month - and that would be categorized as a quickie.

She will briefly go down on me, once or twice a year at most. I am not being demanding- I just want her to know how I feel.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

So we had the "Talk Part 2". Part 1 went very well and it was a few days ago.

This did not go well. I wanted to know the exact reason why she is so adverse to oral sex. She told me that she knows I love it - but always feels pressured to do it, which is a big turn off for her. For the record, the last time she went down on me was over a year ago. 

She doesn't do it because of the pressure. I would do anything for her- she refuses to let me go down on her. She used to in the past, and she liked it, but no more. When we do have sex, I make sure she is satisfied at least once.

She became upset, understandably so. She said the pressure is way worse than ever and she is put in an impossible situation. She feels like she has to do it, but if she doesn't do it, she feels that I will think she no longer loves me.

I then told her I just wanted to know why. I just wanted to communicate. I was very calm and tried to supportive, but she was very upset with me. I told her that it is OK to say "No". I tried to reaffirm that she 100% control of her body and can do with as she wishes. Also, she is not responsible for my happiness. I am, not her. I love her unconditionally.

She had none of that. She had a panic attack and called me obsessive among other things. I feel terrible, but I think I did the right thing. When I am sexually frustrated, resentment causes me to go down some dark paths regarding her past and some rocky points in our marriage. I want our sex life positive and fulfilling.

I think I know why she is reluctant to perform oral sex, which is the basis of this whole thread. She said she felt pressured to do it and it was a turn off. However, she never feels pressured for regular sex. It is not un-Christian or perverse. She had a bad experience many years ago with an ex - but she said that was not it either. It follows that she simply does not like it, and that is 100% acceptable to me, but I don't think she does.

She must find it revolting - but does not want to tell me that because I like it and she wants to protect me. I asked her if I was more assertive in guiding/seducing her to oral sex and it was an emphatic No!. I will have to get over my desire for oral sex. I told her that oral sex is completely off the table until July so she does not feel pressured. She can decide how she feels after. It's not like I'll miss anything. 

In the meantime, I need to repair the damage I did with this discussion and try to find a balance. I don't want to overreact one way or another. 

TLTR: Asked my wife why no oral, freaked out, doesn't like to be pressured, called me obsessive, had a panic attack, and I feel terrible.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

If you want something that you aren't getting and you focus on that one thing, that is obsessive, so she could be right. Maybe you are obsessing over it.

As far as your sex life, she said she wants you to initiate more, but instead you are backing off. Just make love to your wife and stop worrying about equity or whatever it is that is bothering you. I don't think you are looking at sex in a healthy way and it looks like she has gotten annoyed with you over it. Back off on talking about it and analyzing it to death and make love to your wife - often. (yes, I know I'm repeating myself)


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

CynthiaDe said:


> If you want something that you aren't getting and you focus on that one thing, that is obsessive, so she could be right. Maybe you are obsessing over it.
> 
> As far as your sex life, she said she wants you to initiate more, but instead you are backing off. Just make love to your wife and stop worrying about equity or whatever it is that is bothering you. I don't think you are looking at sex in a healthy way and it looks like she has gotten annoyed with you over it. Back off on talking about it and analyzing it to death and make love to your wife - often. (yes, I know I'm repeating myself)


Vanilla sex for the rest of my life- I was hoping for a little more, is all.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I don't think you did any damage with this discussion, so best to get that out of your mind. Feeling like you upset her will only keep you from bringing up other issues in the future, and you don't want a relationship like that. It's called having to walk on eggshells - not good for anybody.

She got upset because she's created some sort of pressure around this act that I'm not even sure she understands. To you, me and many many other people here, we don't get what the big deal is about it. To a few others, they empathize with her - yet (barring some sort of trauma associated with oral sex) they can't quite verbalize their distaste of it, either. Most people like this (men, included) simply decide at some point that it's "gross" or "disgusting" or it's something only hookers or people with loose morals do. Or, as I suggested earlier, it's only for sexual relationships or encounters with people who you are not going to spend the rest of your life with - because those people should expect better of you, or themselves.

The reality is, and I'm loathe to agree with this, trust me, is that many women have a pre- and a post-marriage persona. As much as many men like to think it's specifically in order to "land" a man, I disagree (though that DOES happen). I truly believe that many women utilize the time of their lives before marriage in a much different way than post-marriage. That it's 'okay' to be this way or that, or to do certain things, with certain people.

While no woman truly desires to feel used, I think something clicks in them once they meet the "right" man, and they somehow expect better of them. Like, he's worthy of marriage, of being a father to my kids, of growing old with. Things like BJ's and such are above them. Suddenly, 'being used' is an issue. Where previously one could own something like giving a guy a BJ, now it's "the past" and "I don't do that sort of thing any more", "those guys meant nothing, so I didn't care".

BJ's stopped for me once my wife and I started getting more serious. Prior to that, it was a non-issue. They happened occasionally, sometimes for no reason at all. A few times in the car, while driving, even. I never expected one, was never demanding of it, never once said something like "hey, it's been a while...". And I took care of her in that way, too.

Then it stopped. Right around the time we discussed moving in together. Years later, I find out she "hates" it. But it's something she'd always done, including with me. And when I straight up asked her, if I were to die tomorrow and she started dating again at some point, would the next guy literally never get a BJ? She had no answer. And that's because she would. Until things get serious again.

And that's what I see time and time again with this topic - women stop giving them at some point. Not because their husband/serious boyfriend isn't worthy of them - but because it's somehow associated with casual, non-serious relationships. Ironically, because the guy is a 'keeper' and is too good for such a low-standard standalone sexual act.

Obviously there are many women who enjoy giving oral sex, and/or don't view it as a degrading or disgusting act with their partners, including husbands. But for many, there's a negative stigma attached to BJ's. And it's honestly a shame that so many feel this pressure and anxiety from such a simple thing.



Finwe said:


> So we had the "Talk Part 2". Part 1 went very well and it was a few days ago.
> 
> This did not go well. I wanted to know the exact reason why she is so adverse to oral sex. She told me that she knows I love it - but always feels pressured to do it, which is a big turn off for her. For the record, the last time she went down on me was over a year ago.
> 
> ...


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

Finwe said:


> TLTR: Asked my wife why no oral, freaked out, doesn't like to be pressured, called me obsessive, had a panic attack, and I feel terrible.


My impression from this discussion is that yes you are pressuring her. She's telling you that fact. She's being very clear that it's a turn off and you're just digging a hole by pressuring harder. She's completely justified to tell you how she feels about it.

General thoughts (based on my 18+ years with my wife).

BJ's are an act that she doesn't enjoy in and of itself. What she *can* enjoy is pleasing her partner. She can also enjoy passionate, uninhibited sex. She can enjoy the submissive nature of the act. Personally I think that's why earlier in a relationship or when dating, women are more willing. They're more eager to please. They're high on early relationship passion and endorphines (much like being drunk). They're excited about uninhibited sex (for themselves!) and much more willing to find themselves in a sexual act they wouldn't otherwise pursue. 

I think as relationships mature, much of the eagerness to please, passion, and uninhibitedness wanes. And the *environment* where BJ's might be possible become less and less frequent. When those environmental conditions get replaced by pressure or the implicit criticism that there's something *wrong* with her for not wanting to do this for you, you're digging a hole.

My advice is to work on your sex life in very general terms. There's a ton of literature out there and it doesn't have to be about a goal of getting a BJ. Talk to her about what you can do to "spice it up." Ask her what gets her excited. Ask her how (for example) you can extend the foreplay. Practice nothing but foreplay. Just some examples. Even if you don't eventually end up getting more BJs from increased passion, you could gain better sex in general.

Work on the emotional connection between you. It sounds like that may be lacking as well. That's a whole different *but related* area of your relationship that is almost certainly a prerequisite to passionate and uninhibited sex. Trust and emotional connectedness is a big issue for women during sex. It's also a much more important issue in your relationship than BJs.


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## gt30743 (Apr 10, 2017)

Sorry to hear the issues Oral is big on our sexual menu. I would be really hurt if he said he didn't want to go down on me, I suspect he would feel the same if I stopped giving him BJs. I don't know how to help you make her like it.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Tundra7346 said:


> My impression from this discussion is that yes you are pressuring her. She's telling you that fact. She's being very clear that it's a turn off and you're just digging a hole by pressuring harder. She's completely justified to tell you how she feels about it.
> 
> General thoughts (based on my 18+ years with my wife).
> 
> ...


I like the "BJ environment". Again, I am seeking to understand. She says one thing and does another. The BJ environment is tough. We both have busy schedules and there is little time for love making. For example, we have a date later this week. Where? We are getting our teeth cleaned. Not joking. And I am not complaining. When she goes on vacation, it is with her friends or mother. The family schedule is very demanding.

And the past. I think she had a fairly typical sex life before me. She had a few boyfriends and partied some. I have seen much more wild folks than her. She sees herself differently. She thinks she was out of control and has a lot of remorse about her past. She beats herself up way too much. And she did oral on these fellows, what I would describe as typical. But she did feel pressured. I see a theme here.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> And when I straight up asked her, if I were to die tomorrow and she started dating again at some point, would the next guy literally never get a BJ? She had no answer. And that's because she would. Until things get serious again.


That's what drives me bat-**** crazy about these situations.

She loves you, you love her. She wanted commitment and now has it.

You're the good guy that didn't do all the bad **** to her that all the other guys did.

You're the winner. She won't blow you but she'd be happily blowing all the guys trying to take your place.

I don't understand it and I just wouldn't be able to deal with the unfairness of it all.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Well, my wife rarely offers me a BJ. Occasionally I will ask her for one and I may get something ranging from 30 sec to 2 min. It wasn't always like that. Before we had our 3rd child, we used to do 69 and I we used to give each other oral more frequently. After #3 was born, she says oral on her no longer feels good to her. Fingers are fine, but no mouth or tongue (except maybe 1 or 2 times a year if she's REALLY amped up). In may case it's pretty simple. I get oral if she can enjoy oral. As long as it no longer feels good to her, she feels no real incentive to give me oral. For some reason, the last birth must have damaged some nerves or something that makes oral not feel good anymore. Guess that 15 to 20 year run of more regular oral is nothing but fond memories now.


That makes sense.

She no longer enjoys eating meat so that means that you no longer need meat either.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Finwe said:


> So we had the "Talk Part 2". Part 1 went very well and it was a few days ago.
> 
> This did not go well. I wanted to know the exact reason why she is so adverse to oral sex. She told me that she knows I love it - but always feels pressured to do it, which is a big turn off for her. For the record, the last time she went down on me was over a year ago.
> 
> She doesn't do it because of the pressure.


Ah! It's the pressure!

In that case, the next time she wants you to do something for her, just explain that there's too much pressure, so you can't do it.

If she stops asking you for it; stops telling you that she'd like you to do it; stops expecting you to do it; stops making a point of how you never do it; then you might consider doing it for her once in a while.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Finwe said:


> Vanilla sex for the rest of my life- I was hoping for a little more, is all.


Cynthia was not suggesting vanilla sex for the rest of your life. She was talking about right now.

The best way to improve your sex life is to have more of it and make sure your wife has a very good experience each time. With that, over time her desire for sex will grow. And as it grows, her willingness for give spontaneous bj's will increase.

Action, not words, are important here.

The fact is that the less sex a man has with a woman, the less sex that woman will want with him. By you backing off on initiating, you are doing your part to kill your sex life.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Finwe said:


> Why would you rarely perform oral sex on your husband when you know he loves it?
> 
> I will be talking to the Mrs. on this later. I am thoroughly vexed. I am purposefully withholding information so I don't influence the feedback. I will share more about my particular situation later.


My Wife Used To Go Down On Me a Lot, and Now, Nothing | HuffPost

The conclusion:

"If you do not want to be in the relationship without either oral sex or more sex or better sex or whatever, be direct. Do not be passive aggressive, stay in the relationship and be bitter and resentful, or, worst, be unfaithful. It makes sense to me that if this is important to you, and you used to get it from her, then you would currently still want it from her. If you are trying your best to be a supportive and loving partner to her, and communicate lovingly and directly, and offer to go to counseling, and she still cannot try and suck it up, no pun intended (well I guess it was half intended) and give you oral sex every so often, with a semblance of enthusiasm, *I would say she is not terribly committed to your happiness*."

The bolded is the key.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Finwe said:


> She has done it many years ago with other partners, *quite often in fact*, and has only done it rarely with me.


If someone just doesn't give oral sex, never has before you and never has with you, then there's nothing to complain about.

However, the bolded indicates that she has done it (frequently) with other men and yet only rarely with you.

In my book, that's even more disturbing that than if she had done it often with you and then stopped.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

A lot of women actually don't enjoy it all that much but feel pressured to do it, which is why so many will do it while dating and then stop.

The expectation of oral is fairly recent.....it used to be that no man expected this from his wife.

The expectation came into existence with porn.....something to keep in mind next time one wants to argue that porn has nothing to do with wives. Clearly not true.

Straight men won't understand this but it can be uncomfortable physically. I don't mind giving it some, but I have a small mouth and a gag reflex.....after a while it becomes uncomfortable. Physically it isn't comparable to giving a woman oral.

Your wife doesn't like it but feels pressure to do it, and frankly it's not hard to see why she'd feel pressure. They have come to be seen as an entitlement.

I completely get why men want them, so I'm not intending judgement.....just pointing out that they've now become expected, yet a lot of women don't enjoy it.

Factor in 6 kids and your wife is probably exhausted.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

BADSANTA RAISING HIS HAND

I'll add this... I had a girlfriend in college that complained that all her previous boyfriend wanted from her was oral, he wanted it everyday, NOTHING else, and she felt as if there should be more to sex than just doing that. So she decided that she was just not doing oral ever again. Apparently it made her feel used and if there was nothing else valuable about her to men other than her ability to perform oral.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Finwe said:


> In the meantime, I need to repair the damage I did with this discussion and try to find a balance. I don't want to overreact one way or another.
> 
> TLTR: Asked my wife why no oral, freaked out, doesn't like to be pressured, called me obsessive, had a panic attack, and I feel terrible.


For goodness sake, you didn't cause damage. You tried to have a mature, reasonable conversation with your wife about sex. While it is good to be a nice and considerate person, your post makes you seem weak. Don't be so timid around your wife no matter how emotionally fragile she becomes.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Here's the way it is in a lot of cases where it used to be one thing and now its something else. Think of it as being a little different than a job your wife hates. After several years of doing it, the job still sucks.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Finwe said:


> Funny thing is, she has never told me that. I asked that several times. She has done it many years ago with other partners, quite often in fact, and has only done it rarely with me. I plan to dig deeper this evening when the kids are to bed. I will need to point out several logical fallacies here. I suspect that she is trying to protect me from something.
> 
> Just a strange situation.


Very religious women often tend to have huge hangups about such things. And they also often tend to believe they 'have to do it' to catch a husband, even if they don't want to. Now that she has one, she doesn't have to recreate that part of her life anymore, which she probably couldn't stand even though she acted like she did. 

Also a possibility that she STILL has hangups about doing it from her church/FOO. Heck, some women still won't have sex unless they're trying to have a baby, because that's what their church told them.

Personally, I can't stand doing it because it's disgusting to me. But that's a combination of FOO issues, being mistreated by previous partners, and not being really happy with my husband. Every guy I've ever been with - including my H - used me for sex and that makes me think everything about it is wrong and unattractive.

IME, the only way to get a woman to want to do something like that is to (1) get past her FOO stuff, (2) get her in therapy to deal with what her previous partners may or may not have done to her, and (3) do whatever it takes for you to make sure she is happy with YOU and thus desires you more.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

VladDracul said:


> ... the job still sucks.


But the wife doesn't


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Finwe said:


> She does enjoy sex but is a selfish lover.


Just because of this aspect? Or is she selfish in other ways?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

CynthiaDe said:


> If you want something that you aren't getting and you focus on that one thing, that is obsessive, so she could be right. Maybe you are obsessing over it.
> 
> As far as your sex life, she said she wants you to initiate more, but instead you are backing off. Just make love to your wife and stop worrying about equity or whatever it is that is bothering you. I don't think you are looking at sex in a healthy way and it looks like she has gotten annoyed with you over it. Back off on talking about it and analyzing it to death and make love to your wife - often. (yes, I know I'm repeating myself)


How often do you touch your wife in non-sexual ways? Hugging, holding hands, rubbing her leg on the couch without creeping up the leg? Daily? Once a week? Never?


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

@Finwe - instead of asking this question to the wives you may have been better served by asking the men who have had success with women doing things they said they wouldn't and getting them to enjoy it.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I am the last person anyone should listen to. When I give advice to guys they just dis it, so whatever. 

My wife didn't initiate sex at all for the first 19 years of our marriage and I didn't even notice. I took what I wanted whenever I wanted it, and she seemed to enjoy it. 

Since '92 she changed some, and started initiating sex in a round about way by curling up next to me and masturbating. 

I still have to take what I want. A lot. 

Feel free to ignore me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> Straight men won't understand this but it can be uncomfortable physically. I don't mind giving it some, but I have a small mouth and a gag reflex.....after a while it becomes uncomfortable.


Oh don't even get me started on this. The entire time, all I'm thinking about is to NOT position myself so that that happens; and invariably, it still does. SO VERY NOT romantic or even enjoyable. As someone else said, the only time I come close to wanting to do it is when my H has paid attention to my needs in some way shortly before and I want to please him for it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

badsanta said:


> BADSANTA RAISING HIS HAND
> 
> I'll add this... I had a girlfriend in college that complained that all her previous boyfriend wanted from her was oral, he wanted it everyday, NOTHING else, and she felt as if there should be more to sex than just doing that. So she decided that she was just not doing oral ever again. Apparently it made her feel used and if there was nothing else valuable about her to men other than her ability to perform oral.


Thus my question about does he ever just cuddle or touch her without expecting it to lead to sex. I sit on the opposite end of the couch because the instant he touches my skin, he expects that I'm giving him permission to have sex.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

I hope she isn't doing it because of her Christian belief. God created sex to be enjoyable. Man has screwed it up as usual.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Some men have foot fetishes. I think it's disgusting. Therefore, there's no one I would ever love enough to enjoy them sucking on my toes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oral sex is not a fetish or even a kink. It is a common and widespread sexual practice that has been pervasive in our species since we crawled up out of the muck into the trees (that God created for us)....

Please don't lump cunnilingus and fellatio in with toe sucking or bondage. These are vastly different things. Don't confuse what he's talking about with something he's not talking about.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

There is a select few women who really enjoy and get off on giving blowjobs. They are a national treasure and deserve to marry billionaires. God bless 'em. 

But most women don't, or are at least ambivalent about it. And that is okay too. They way I look at it, if a man marries a woman from the latter group, who was never into giving him blowjobs in the first place, then in my opinion he shouldn't be complaining when ten years after marriage he only gets his pickle sucked on his birthdays. 

See I'm the opposite as a guy. As long as my partner keeps herself clean and sees to her hygene, I would go down on her anytime she would let me, and certainly any time she needs or wants me to (a woman needs release every once in a while for her health and happiness). And, believe it or not, I don't expect anything in return usually. But that is just me. I really enjoy going down on women. I get a lot of satisfaction getting my lady off. And its also because I'm a perv, but that is another topic for another day. 

Where it is not okay is when the husband has done nothing to deserve such treatment and then gets his knickers in a twist when his partner isn't responsive. A man should be seducing and showing his love for his wife long before they ever get to the bedroom. Lovemaking starts hours before the husband even gets home, through loving phone calls, flirtatious texts, etc. A woman wants to know her man is willing to invest some time into making her feel good. Where that goes wrong is when a woman gets spoiled and expects it all the time, then acts like a brat when she doesn't get it. 

Both partners need to be sensitive to each others moods and feelings.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> Oral sex is not a fetish or even a kink. It is a common and widespread sexual practice that has been pervasive in our species since we crawled up out of the muck into the trees (that God created for us)....
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't lump cunnilingus and fellatio in with toe sucking or bondage. These are vastly different things. Don't confuse what he's talking about with something he's not talking about.




Why not? Who says oral sex isn't a fetish? There's plenty of good arguments to say it is. 

Personally I don't like getting head much, and my wife actually does it occasionally because she thinks it's something important to show how much she loves me, so I get more than I could ever want.

I do cunnilingus very regularly. I really enjoy doing it.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

WilliamM said:


> Why not? Who says oral sex isn't a fetish? There's plenty of good arguments to say it is.
> 
> Personally I don't like getting head much, and my wife actually does it occasionally because she thinks it's something important to show how much she loves me, so I get more than I could ever want.


A fetish denotes something outside the ordinary that generally only a very small minority of people are into or get off on. Oral sex does not fit those parameters. It is practiced by the majority of our species. Anyone who thinks oral sex is an aberration is pervasively old fashioned, uptight and not someone I want to invite to a barbecue. Blowjobs and :cat:licking are practiced daily by billions of people (except snotty, uptight church ladies I guess).


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

bandit.45 said:


> But most women don't, or are at least ambivalent about it. And that is okay too. They way I look at it, if a man marries a woman from the latter group, who was never into giving him blowjobs in the first place, then in my opinion he shouldn't be complaining when ten years after marriage he only gets his pickle sucked on his birthdays.


bandit, do you listen to 94.5? Do you know what March 14th is?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

turnera said:


> bandit, do you listen to 94.5? Do you know what March 14th is?


National Steak and Blowjob Day!!! :bounce::yay::gun:


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Oral sex is not a fetish or even a kink. It is a common and widespread sexual practice that has been pervasive in our species since we crawled up out of the muck into the trees (that God created for us)....
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't lump cunnilingus and fellatio in with toe sucking or bondage. These are vastly different things. Don't confuse what he's talking about with something he's not talking about.




I think my point was different strokes for different folks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Elizabeth001 said:


> I think my point was *different strokes for different folks*.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Heh heh heh...see what you did there? :corkysm60:


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Heh heh heh...see what you did there? :corkysm60:




I thought about it but that sounded more like a hand job and I didn't want to confuse the fella. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> There is a select few women who really enjoy and get off on giving blowjobs. They are a national treasure and deserve to marry billionaires. God bless 'em.


:laugh:


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

turnera said:


> Just because of this aspect? Or is she selfish in other ways?


Other ways too, but not a big deal. It isn't common but there have been occasions where I serviced her with no reciprocation. Birth control is my responsibility, which means I buy the condoms. If no condom, then no hanky-panky. When I try to be spontaneous, like shower sex, she almost always turns me down. Which I understand, awkward and she needs a break every now and then.

She doesn't exactly just lie there, but pretty close. Doesn't like weird positions other than a couple of favorites. To think of it, she puts almost no effort into sex. 

The burden is on me to guess the timing, make sure we have condoms, make sure she has been connected with me during the day, make sure I am assertive but not too assertive. Stresses me out. Which why I am on TAM.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Thound said:


> I hope she isn't doing it because of her Christian belief. God created sex to be enjoyable. Man has screwed it up as usual.


Religion is not the problem here. That has been confirmed.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> National Steak and Blowjob Day!!! :bounce::yay::gun:


Well I do make a good steak anyway.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

To the OP and those who used to get it but no longer do, those of us who have done without from day one will remind you of the words of Alfred Lord Tennyson:


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Finwe said:


> Religion is not the problem here. That has been confirmed.


I beg to disagree. She shows all the signs of a woman raised in a church to believe it's her job to 'give' you sex just to stay married, and nothing more.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I would have to see some evidence before I would believe the majority of human beings practice oral sex. So many cultures do not permit it, and even punish it, it seems it to me there is no justification for saying the majority of humans actually participate.

Without supporting evidence it's just... lip service?


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Aren't we a bunchy punch?

Hahaaa 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Buddy400 said:


> That's what drives me bat-**** crazy about these situations.
> 
> She loves you, you love her. She wanted commitment and now has it.
> 
> ...


Well, like I said, I theorize that it isn't because I (or "the husband", "the winner") doesn't deserve it. I honestly think that once things get serious, some women see this person as better than that - that things such as BJ's are lesser acts, for lesser people.

Much like how some men get the Madonna/***** syndrome thing happening with their wives, especially when they have kids.

I honestly think that for some women, things like BJ's are "okay" for casual, non-serious relationships. They don't matter, because the person doesn't matter. They may not necessarily care for it, but it's something they might do anyway, because... what the hell, or they're in the moment, or they don't really care all that much what they think of them.

I honestly feel that my wife suppresses her sexuality at times with me because she doesn't want me to view her "in that way". Once we get going, she's a totally different person. The instant it's over, she's back to the 'good wife'. She won't even talk with me about what we just did, like it's taboo or something.

The other day, I ASKED her for a BJ. I haven't done that in, oh, 4 years? I was playful, not demanding, I even smiled. Her IMMEDIATE answer - "Pffft, no". She acted like it was an insult. Like I said... 4 years, at least, since I even brought the subject up, never mind asked or hinted for one.

(5 minutes later, she leaned in for a kiss, as she was going off somewhere. I said "Pffft, no" and gave her the eyes. She was not impressed. I did talk to her later, and told her it's fine if she says no, and expected, TBH, but don't ever say no like that. She apologized. But, damage done.)


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Finwe said:


> I get it. Having six children is very challenging for her and for me. She is the primary caregiver and I do my best to be compassionate in this area. Our sex life has suffered because of the kids and we both understand it. But how much is too much? We have been bordering on sexless marriage for the past year, a little more than x1 per month - and that would be categorized as a quickie.
> 
> She will briefly go down on me, once or twice a year at most. I am not being demanding- I just want her to know how I feel.


Jesus. If I had 6 kids (which would never happen in this life or the next) I'd be only TOO happy to give you BJs - *anything* to avoid getting pregnant AGAIN. Blech.

This poor woman sounds like a brood mare.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> National Steak and Blowjob Day!!! :bounce::yay::gun:


I was sick on this most prestigious holiday, but my husband was able to celebrate a week later when I was better.

He'd never heard of Steak and Blowjob Day before he met me. >


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> He'd never heard of Steak and Blowjob Day before he met me. >


Yet another husband that I suddenly hate.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

*Right now* in this period of your lives your wife isn't able to manufacture a sex drive that would bring her to a state of arousal that would make her want to give you a BJ. *Right now*, your wife has no sex drive because, 6 kids. This means sex isn't important to her and this means if you want sex it's on you to make it happen. Period. End of story. Get the **** over it.


If she isn't into BJ's right now it is not something you can do anything about unless you can get her buzzed and so aroused she's ripping your clothes off. Unless a woman really likes giving a BJ, she will only do it to please her partner and the amount of times she does it are the amount of times she feels extremely loved by him. 
If she's neutral about BJ's she gives them out of a sense of expectation and because she loves you. 
If she's kind of meh, mostly would prefer not to but doesn't want to be though of as a prude or selfish, she gives as rarely as she can. 
If she's meh to negative about BJ's she gives them only when she feels totally, completely, out of her mind aroused and that rarely happens. And if he makes a fuss about it, it will happen even less.

Also, what is she doing to address her anxiety? If she has panic attacks, she should be having her anxiety addressed through therapy.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

turnera said:


> I beg to disagree. She shows all the signs of a woman raised in a church to believe it's her job to 'give' you sex just to stay married, and nothing more.


This.

Plus, your wife's anxiety.

Does your wife masturbate? Will she talk about what she likes you to do to get her aroused and how she likes to be touched to orgasm? Is she comfortable with her body?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

It is an excuse. There's no real pressure if she has not done it in a year. Unless you are constantly hassling her about it, which does not seem to be the case.

She just does not like doing them and perhaps did not really like it before. She gave you a little nugget of truth, though; she fears some kind of negative repercussion if the oral stops. THAT is why she makes excuses instead of owning her feelings about it.



Finwe said:


> So we had the "Talk Part 2". Part 1 went very well and it was a few days ago.
> 
> This did not go well. I wanted to know the exact reason why she is so adverse to oral sex. She told me that she knows I love it - but always feels pressured to do it, which is a big turn off for her. For the record, the last time she went down on me was over a year ago.
> 
> ...


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> This poor woman sounds like a brood mare.


Now...come on. It's not like she doesn't have any say in the matter. Some women want big families.


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## Remee81 (May 24, 2017)

I agree with maybe being forceful in another way to see her response. She may be shy about it but if u are assertive that may get her to want to engage in other activities. But don't start with assertiveness about oral, that could go badly. This may be past trauma, and getting her to tell u exactly what bothered her about her past may help u to go about oral in a different way? Be honest with her about how u feel about ur sex life, that u want to improve it and please her but u need things as well. Being unhappy sexually will eventually be devastating to the marriage. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Jesus. If I had 6 kids (which would never happen in this life or the next) I'd be only TOO happy to give you BJs - *anything* to avoid getting pregnant AGAIN. Blech.
> 
> This poor woman sounds like a brood mare.


It's not that way at all. We would have six more if we could. We are even looking into adoption.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> This.
> 
> Plus, your wife's anxiety.
> 
> Does your wife masturbate? Will she talk about what she likes you to do to get her aroused and how she likes to be touched to orgasm? Is she comfortable with her body?


She is an avid believer and I am best described as open-minded. The church we go to is quite positive about sex. I asked outright if she faith was the issue and she said a quick no. No debating here.
Not sure if she masterbates, I imagine she does. She is quite comfortable with her body - very attractive and she is image-positive as far as I know. That is how we do it, touch to orgasm.

Anxiety is tough for her. I have compassion for her as I ran into some serious anxiety this winter. It was job-related. I feel great now. She doesn't. She attributes her anxiety to the home we bought - it isn't what she had in mind. I am not so sure that is the complete story. I have been trying to convince her to go to counseling.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> The other day, I ASKED her for a BJ. I haven't done that in, oh, 4 years? I was playful, not demanding, I even smiled. Her IMMEDIATE answer - "Pffft, no". She acted like it was an insult. Like I said... 4 years, at least, since I even brought the subject up, never mind asked or hinted for one.
> 
> (5 minutes later, she leaned in for a kiss, as she was going off somewhere. I said "Pffft, no" and gave her the eyes. She was not impressed. I did talk to her later, and told her it's fine if she says no, and expected, TBH, but don't ever say no like that. She apologized. But, damage done.)


I really liked that you asked (even knowing the likely response) and then pushed back


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Finwe said:


> She is an avid believer and I am best described as open-minded. The church we go to is quite positive about sex. I asked outright if she faith was the issue and she said a quick no. No debating here.
> Not sure if she masterbates, I imagine she does. She is quite comfortable with her body - very attractive and she is image-positive as far as I know. That is how we do it, touch to orgasm.
> 
> Anxiety is tough for her. I have compassion for her as I ran into some serious anxiety this winter. It was job-related. I feel great now. She doesn't. She attributes her anxiety to the home we bought - it isn't what she had in mind. I am not so sure that is the complete story. I have been trying to convince her to go to counseling.



Hmmmm, so she has anxiety about your home? Because it's not what she had in mind or it's not what she expected this particular home would be, or provide, or represent? I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense to me can you explain more?

She needs therapy if she has panic attacks. You must insist on it! Anxiety/panic attacks is one of the easiest mental health issues to deal with, within the context of therapy. There are several techniques that are extremely successful. Therapy combined with med management would enable her to lessen anxiety's affect so well she would feel like she no longer has anxiety. I do not understand why people would prefer to have anxiety than get some help and get rid of it!

I am very glad to hear she is body positive! And super happy that her church is sex positive too. Those are excellent assets in her corner, and yours too!


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

My Thoughts. Thank you all for discussing this with me. 

Before our talks I was sexually frustrated with no sex, and sexually frustrated with sex. So I took the dive and communicated honestly and openly with her. I had nothing to lose.

I wished it went better but it didn't. I tried. I did my best. Now I will let it go. At least now when am sexually frustrated with no sex, I can say I did try. When I do have vanilla sex, I know I tried the best I can to make an improvement. I still will have frustration and I will take pains to take the energy and apply it in a positive manner. 

I could whine about my situation, I could complain, and go down some dark paths, but I will avoid those. I will make the best of my situation and move on this issue. This is the stuff of life.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

QFT.

I enjoy giving BJs because my husband likes it.
I used to love having oral performed on me, but my husband hates it, and says the times he tried it with former partners he almost threw up on them....so he has never went down on me in our relationship. That's very difficult for me to swallow, because I really miss it, and my former partners loved performing it. Maybe I was spoiled in that area and didn't know it.

We are also in a LD (H) HD (me) situation. What Ele said is SO true, the more you increase the amount of sex you have, the better things get in the desire department for my husband. He had never been with a woman who loved sex before, so to him once a month was plenty. To me that feels like a lifetime in between and crushes my spirit.

So I would suggest definitely increasing your sex life, do things such as buying her sexy lingerie that YOU like. Tell her that once a week you are going to fulfill each other's desire for instance each Friday night. So Saturday morning, whoevers turn it is says, "Next Friday we are going to XYZ." Build up the anticipation and excitement for pleasing each other in the way each of you wants.

Things don't need to be rigid and always a big issue. Make it light, and have fun with your wife. All the best...



EleGirl said:


> Cynthia was not suggesting vanilla sex for the rest of your life. She was talking about right now.
> 
> The best way to improve your sex life is to have more of it and make sure your wife has a very good experience each time. With that, over time her desire for sex will grow. And as it grows, her willingness for give spontaneous bj's will increase.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Finwe,

Please reread what you have written below. Because the way this comes across is: No oral = boring sex life = me shutting our sex life down (sexless marriage).

Of course that (a sexless marriage) feels threatening to your wife. You have 6 kids - and your are the sole breadwinner. 

----------
It is unkind to have 6 kids with someone and then fixate on something like this. And by radiating dissatisfaction with your sex life and letting her know you would rather jerk off then have sex with her - you are creating a mountain of negative pressure.





Finwe said:


> Thank you, that is why I am talking about it with her. I am having difficulty with resentment. Our sex life can be described as "a bit less than average" in every aspect. I will talk openly and honestly. I just want to know and have it decided one way or another.
> 
> If it blows up in my face, at least it will be settled. I have been working on accepting that our marriage will be sexless. That is where we are headed. I am working on managing my sexual desire - she says that is foolish. Men have desires and they should be satiated by their partners.
> 
> ...


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Finwe said:


> My Thoughts. Thank you all for discussing this with me.
> 
> Before our talks I was sexually frustrated with no sex, and sexually frustrated with sex. So I took the dive and communicated honestly and openly with her. I had nothing to lose.
> 
> ...


She was a prude when you dated her, she was prude when you married her and she's still a prude. I'm sorry brother, but all decisions have costs, and you chose to marry her knowing you and her were sexually incompatible. She has demonstrated she is not going to budge, so you are just going to have to learn to live with it. If you can't, then you need to divorce. It may not be Biblically sanctioned, and you would probably take a hurtload of heat for doing so, but if you are willing to risk giving up the marriage to go out and find one of those rare women who enjoys giving head, then maybe that's what you have to do. It's your life.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Finwe said:


> She is an avid believer and I am best described as open-minded. The church we go to is quite positive about sex.


What about the church she grew up in?


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## gr8ful1 (Dec 3, 2016)

Spicy said:


> What Ele said is SO true, the more you increase the amount of sex you have, the better things get in the desire department for my husband.


Sorry for the TJ but I can't help myself. I've read this sentiment from other others, including women, but you wouldn't say it's universal true for women, would you? Or perhaps there's a limit to it's validity? I'm more HD and my desired frequency would be daily but my wife says her O is much weaker the day after she's had one and so her preference would be more like 4-5 days in between which definitely does result in a much more intense O experience for her. 

Or maybe desire & O intensity are completely unrelated?


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> Hmmmm, so she has anxiety about your home? Because it's not what she had in mind or it's not what she expected this particular home would be, or provide, or represent? I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense to me can you explain more?
> 
> She needs therapy if she has panic attacks. You must insist on it! Anxiety/panic attacks is one of the easiest mental health issues to deal with, within the context of therapy. There are several techniques that are extremely successful. Therapy combined with med management would enable her to lessen anxiety's affect so well she would feel like she no longer has anxiety. I do not understand why people would prefer to have anxiety than get some help and get rid of it!
> 
> I am very glad to hear she is body positive! And super happy that her church is sex positive too. Those are excellent assets in her corner, and yours too!


We moved across the country twice. We have been in our current area for 1.5 years and we love it. We are home. The house we purchased is very nice was the best decision given the market. However, we live in the country and we hear road noise. This seems to set her off. There are other quirks, we still need to put in a lawn, we are little further out than we prefer to be, nothing major. We have great neighbors, privacy, kids can raise holy heck outside and no worries. 

Thanks for the counseling idea. I will double my efforts!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

turnera said:


> How often do you touch your wife in non-sexual ways? Hugging, holding hands, rubbing her leg on the couch without creeping up the leg? Daily? Once a week? Never?


I don't recall you answering this.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Finwe said:


> We moved across the country twice. We have been in our current area for 1.5 years and we love it. We are home. The house we purchased is very nice was the best decision given the market. However, we live in the country and we hear road noise. This seems to set her off. There are other quirks, we still need to put in a lawn, we are little further out than we prefer to be, nothing major. We have great neighbors, privacy, kids can raise holy heck outside and no worries.
> 
> Thanks for the counseling idea. I will double my efforts!


So the noise of the cars is what is bothering her? Is she noise sensitive?

Damn, we live on an approach flight path (about 50 miles out) to Andrews Air Force base. While it is super cool it's also kinda loud. The fighter jets and stealth bombers make the kids stop and point. Speaking of which, since Trump has been on his Middle East trip, the traffic has increased 4 fold. We think the military is gathering strength in case he does something beyond his normal stupid and offends every country he visits.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

turnera said:


> I don't recall you answering this.


I am not very good at this, but I do try. I do make conscientious efforts but sometimes I do fall short in this category. It is important to her too.


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## freshnikar (May 23, 2017)

Some women think it is "dirty"


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I understand this, but women have to realize how bad this looks from the other side. 

Its OK to not be willing to do oral, but doing it while dating, then stopping once a man is "trapped" is really unfair and deceptive. (as is anything that is done to trap a partner, but the stopped).





lifeistooshort said:


> A lot of women actually don't enjoy it all that much but feel pressured to do it, which is why so many will do it while dating and then stop.
> snip


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

gr8ful1 said:


> Sorry for the TJ but I can't help myself. I've read this sentiment from other others, including women, but you wouldn't say it's universal true for women, would you? Or perhaps there's a limit to it's validity? I'm more HD and my desired frequency would be daily but my wife says her O is much weaker the day after she's had one and so her preference would be more like 4-5 days in between which definitely does result in a much more intense O experience for her.
> 
> Or maybe desire & O intensity are completely unrelated?


This has been mostly true for my wife and I as well (the more sex you have, the more you want).

But then the other half of the world is saying that LD people (mostly women) need *more* time between sex to "recharge" their desire.

Who knows?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I understand this, but women have to realize how bad this looks from the other side.
> 
> Its OK to not be willing to do oral, but doing it while dating, then stopping once a man is "trapped" is really unfair and deceptive. (as is anything that is done to trap a partner, but the stopped).


I certainly can't see the difference between this and a husband who, once he's married, stops paying attention to his wife and just sits in his underwear watching sports while going through a six pack or two.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Some women do not like to give oral for what ever reason they might have. She just might not like it.


I can certainly understand that she "just might not like it".

But, if there's something that I could do for my wife that would make her very happy, is it perfectly acceptable for me to not do it and explain that the reason is just that I don't "like it"?

If I hate it, if it causes me pain, if I don't want to do it because she never cares about my happiness, those are pretty good reasons..

But, I doubt she'd accept my "I just don't like it" as a good enough response.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

OP, I wish you had put the fact that you and your wife have 6 kids, with one of them only 12 months old, (!!!!) in your opening post. The fact that you didn't leads me to think that you might have a non-realistic perspective on how much that is likely affecting your wife. 

Just the amount of brain power and energy needed to take on the care of 6 kids including very young children- OMG. I am exhausted thinking about it. If they are biologically yours (e.g. not adopted or fostered), her body has been through the wringer, being pregnant, giving birth, feeding and cleaning, rocking, chasing, being at a high level of watchfulness, for many years now. Little ones are very physical and needy. How many are still pre-school age? 

Don't get me wrong- it is awesome that you have a big family and love it, and you might even bring in more! But realize that there is a temporal cost to it. When kids are very young, it takes an enormous amount of time and energy, and if you're honest you'll acknowledge that that vast amount of that time energy and energy comes from your wife. It is extremely common for the marital sex life to reduce during the time when the kids are young- and you've had young kids for many years now. It's not like 2-4 years for people with only one or two kids; you're probably pushing closer to 10 or more years with young kids, yes? 

I'm not saying that it is not realistic to expect to have a sex life; your wife is willing to have sex with you. I think it is highly unrealistic to expect kinky, highly enthusiastic, she initiates, blow jobs if they aren't really her thing, etc, kinds of sex at this point in time for you. Do you have support from family who can watch the kids in order to get a night or two away in a hotel or something, where you can change things up? Otherwise, I think you are going to make her and you miserable if you can't re-think things.

And I very much agree with MEM below; it sounds to me like you are adding to her distress and anxiety. Those kind of actions are not aligned in the direction that you want to go (better and more frequent sex.)




MEM2020 said:


> It is unkind to have 6 kids with someone and then fixate on something like this. And by radiating dissatisfaction with your sex life and letting her know you would rather jerk off then have sex with her - you are creating a mountain of negative pressure.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> It is unkind to have 6 kids with someone and then fixate on something like this. And by radiating dissatisfaction with your sex life and letting her know you would rather jerk off then have sex with her - you are creating a mountain of negative pressure.


What if he *would* rather jerk off than have sex with her?

Is he compelled to have sex with her anyway?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

RoseAglow said:


> OP, I wish you had put the fact that you and your wife have 6 kids, with one of them only 12 months old, (!!!!) in your opening post. The fact that you didn't leads me to think that you might have a non-realistic perspective on how much that is likely affecting your wife.


The reason he didn't include this information was explained in his opening post.



Finwe said:


> I am purposefully withholding information so I don't influence the feedback. I will share more about my particular situation later.


And I don't get this assumption that the situation was foisted upon his wife against her will. The wife most likely had (at least) an equal say. A co-worker of mine has six kids. It's because it's what his wife wanted, he would have happily stopped sooner. When you consciously decide to have six kids, you don't get to be excused from the consequences.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

deleted


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Finwe said:


> I am not very good at this, but I do try. I do make conscientious efforts but sometimes I do fall short in this category. It is important to her too.


Well, I should have reworded it. What is the percentage of time you spend just holding her hand or rubbing a shoulder versus or just cuddling, versus the time you spend pushing for or asking for or talking about sex. 

In other words, if you sit next to her, is she worried you're going to make a pass at her or can she relax next to you on the couch? Women usually need the cuddling as much as the sex, and the cuddling might even lead to wanting more sex.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

uhtred said:


> I understand this, but women have to realize how bad this looks from the other side.
> 
> Its OK to not be willing to do oral, but doing it while dating, then stopping once a man is "trapped" is really unfair and deceptive. (as is anything that is done to trap a partner, but the stopped).


So is not taking your wife on dates anymore.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Buddy400 said:


> I can certainly understand that she "just might not like it".
> 
> But, if there's something that I could do for my wife that would make her very happy, is it perfectly acceptable for me to not do it and explain that the reason is just that I don't "like it"?
> 
> ...


That's where the book His Needs Her Needs comes in. Both need to learn the other's top needs and sit down and discuss if they can or can't meet those needs, and if not, what to do about it.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

It is my hope for you and your wife that this is a season. There are things that I was willing to do in life before that I am just not willing to expend energy on now. In many ways I have become more selfish and focused, because the things I need to focus on now are so important and complicated compared to when I was younger and BC (before Child.) So when I hear of a wife who is no longer willing to have sex every other day or give BJs or do other things that were fun and possible before, I am not surprised. I can easily see how it happens. 

But what I have observed from friends who are now empty-nesters, or have older kids (like 16 and up), or even those who are my H and my parents' age (65 and up)- energy and time for things come and go. My H and I got married and started a family near 40, and we have friends and family whose kids are now graduating HS and moving out, getting married, etc. Almost all of these friends have a renewed life, sexual and otherwise (at least that is what they say and they seem very lovey-dove.) My mom is over 70 and is likely getting married soon and given that her fiancé (also over 70 yrs old) can't seem to stop talking about sex, I'm guessing that they are having a ton of it! 

While on TAM we have people who have had terrible sex lives for years, it is not a given that you will have the same experience. The people who don't have this experience are generally not on TAM, right? There is no guarantee either way.

It sounds to me like overall, outside of sex, you are a happy family man. Your wife is willing to have sex with you. I hope that you can find a way to take the positive energy and apply it in a positive manner, as you indicate below. if you take off the pressure for blow jobs and focus on other sexual aspects, you might find more happiness. It might not be ideal, but it might be more bearable for you (and will likely be a much better experience for your wife.)




Finwe said:


> My Thoughts. Thank you all for discussing this with me.
> 
> Before our talks I was sexually frustrated with no sex, and sexually frustrated with sex. So I took the dive and communicated honestly and openly with her. I had nothing to lose.
> 
> ...


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> The reason he didn't include this information was explained in his opening post.


It's a fair point, but it is important information to have.



> And I don't get this assumption that the situation was foisted upon his wife against her will. The wife most likely had (at least) an equal say. A co-worker of mine has six kids. It's because it's what his wife wanted, he would have happily stopped sooner. When you consciously decide to have six kids, you don't get to be excused from the consequences.


I never said that this was against her will, and I agree with you that having six kids has consequences. Some of those consequences (I called it cost in my post) is that one might not have as robust a sex life.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

RoseAglow said:


> d we have friends and family whose kids are now graduating HS and moving out, getting married, etc. Almost all of these friends have a renewed life, sexual and otherwise (at least that is what they say and they seem very lovey-dove.)


Yes, this often happens (my wife and I are now empty nesters and are having a similar experience).

If they prioritized their spouse's happiness, but other things got in the way, then this is likely what happens when those "other things" are no longer there.

But, if they didn't care much about their spouse, then removing the distractions isn't going to suddenly change anything.

Then you're an empty nester with a wife or husband who still doesn't prioritize your needs and it's too late to start over.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

gr8ful1 said:


> Sorry for the TJ but I can't help myself. I've read this sentiment from other others, including women, but you wouldn't say it's universal true for women, would you? Or perhaps there's a limit to it's validity? I'm more HD and my desired frequency would be daily but my wife says her O is much weaker the day after she's had one and so her preference would be more like 4-5 days in between which definitely does result in a much more intense O experience for her.
> 
> Or maybe desire & O intensity are completely unrelated?


Of course everyone is different...there is no universal answer. I would agree though, if I haven't had one in a while, when I do it is super intense. That still would never make me want to skip any opportunity to have sex...


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Because she got you to marry her and she doesn't have to anymore.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

turnera said:


> Well, I should have reworded it. What is the percentage of time you spend just holding her hand or rubbing a shoulder versus or just cuddling, versus the time you spend pushing for or asking for or talking about sex.
> 
> In other words, if you sit next to her, is she worried you're going to make a pass at her or can she relax next to you on the couch? Women usually need the cuddling as much as the sex, and the cuddling might even lead to wanting more sex.





turnera said:


> So is not taking your wife on dates anymore.


Let me start by saying that I don't disagree with you about this!

That said, I dislike how it's _almost_ always the guy who has to push the right buttons, do the right things, etc. to get anywhere with something like sex.

Using myself as an example, I'd always done stuff like the above - holding hands, back/foot rubs, cuddling, dates, etc etc etc. Yet... no BJ's, and no increase in sexual interest. It's not something I suddenly started doing, I've just always done those things. Because I want to make her happy.

The advice? Pull back, and don't do that stuff that often. Make her want you. Make her come to you.

So for the men who don't do it enough - the advice is to do it. For those who DO do it, the advice is to stop. Sigh. So in other words, basically play this game of push/pull and try to find this magic balance. So she's not meeting your needs because you're not meeting hers OR you're meeting hers so much and so often that she doesn't feel she has to bother to meet yours because she gets what she wants regardless. Double sigh.

Not once have I seen a woman who's issue is that her husband isn't that affectionate, be advised to give him a BJ, or be more sexual, or whatever - thus making him more affectionate. But it should be true, right?

Now, Turnera's not _wrong_, per se. Affection should breed affection. But we all know that that's just not the case - most of the time.

It's worth a shot (and certainly isn't harmful in any way to the marriage!), but if OP or anybody else is expecting this to be the miracle cure - guess again.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Agreed.

Doesn't apply to me in any case. My wife (almost) never gave BJs, and I still take her on dates.



turnera said:


> So is not taking your wife on dates anymore.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its the same. 

Averaged over everyone the genders probably do about equally - but that isn't what matters. This board is full of posts of women who will do anything for their husbands but get nothing in return, and men who will do anything for their wives and get nothing in return. The overall male / female account may be balanced worldwide but many relationships are not. 



Buddy400 said:


> I certainly can't see the difference between this and a husband who, once he's married, stops paying attention to his wife and just sits in his underwear watching sports while going through a six pack or two.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

alexm said:


> Let me start by saying that I don't disagree with you about this!
> 
> That said, I dislike how it's _almost_ always the guy who has to push the right buttons, do the right things, etc. to get anywhere with something like sex.
> 
> ...



Yes, there does seem to be conflicting advice for men. 'Do this more or do this less' is not one size fits all.


The truth is, some of you just married nasty *****es and it doesn't matter what you do because you married an extremely high maintenance/demanding woman and your boundaries are kind of weak. But you love her and so you're re willing to continue to think of her as something she really isn't; a nice person.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Anon Pink said:


> Yes, there does seem to be conflicting advice for men. 'Do this more or do this less' is not one size fits all.
> 
> 
> The truth is, some of you just married nasty *****es and it doesn't matter what you do because you married an extremely high maintenance/demanding woman and your boundaries are kind of weak. But you love her and so you're re willing to continue to think of her as something she really isn't; a nice person.


Here's irony for you: My ex wife was a high maintenance, demanding princess of a woman, and my boundaries were weak with her. She still took care of me, sexually, though. BJ's were swapped out for HJ's once her jaw started locking on the regular. TMJ, look it up if you're not familiar.

My current wife is none of those things. She's about as laid back and non-demanding as one can be. And she's about as far from being a ***** as is humanly possible.

And with her, my boundaries are not weak. I speak my mind, tell her what's on it, and what I think of things, and I lead.

Again, this 'one size fits all' stuff doesn't apply to everybody.

It's almost always assumed that the problem lies with the man, and not the woman, when it comes to sex and BJ's and needs.

"She doesn't do it because you're a ***** who has weak boundaries." "She doesn't do it because you're too demanding and an *******."

Or, the myriad of built-in excuses, such as "she's too busy being a mother", "she has no free time anymore", "when she has any down time, she's tired, so leave her alone".

Not to be an *******, but it's assumed that the man doesn't have these stresses or time constraints, or that perhaps he doesn't parent as much as the woman does. BS (in most cases. There are most definitely a-hole men out there).


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> Here's irony for you: My ex wife was a high maintenance, demanding princess of a woman, and my boundaries were weak with her. She still took care of me, sexually, though. BJ's were swapped out for HJ's once her jaw started locking on the regular. TMJ, look it up if you're not familiar.
> 
> My current wife is none of those things. She's about as laid back and non-demanding as one can be. And she's about as far from being a ***** as is humanly possible.
> 
> ...


The advice is conflicting because people aren't the same. What works for one won't work for another -- the individuals are different and the dynamics are different. 

And it isn't that men are to blame. It's that you are here with the problem and are seeking advice from people who have very different personalities, experiences, and relationship dynamics than you. If it were your wife here with the problem, she would be getting the same sort of conflicting advice. Be sexier, wear more lingerie, seduce him more. No, no, flirt with other men, let him know that other men are after you, and that you are super desirable. No, no, never flirt with other men, but make sure to fawn all over and adore your husband, laugh at all his jokes, compliment his every move. No, no, that will just go to his head. What you need to do is take charge, take the reins, and don't let him cross your boundaries.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

alexm said:


> Here's irony for you: My ex wife was a high maintenance, demanding princess of a woman, and my boundaries were weak with her. She still took care of me, sexually, though. BJ's were swapped out for HJ's once her jaw started locking on the regular. TMJ, look it up if you're not familiar.
> 
> My current wife is none of those things. She's about as laid back and non-demanding as one can be. And she's about as far from being a ***** as is humanly possible.
> 
> ...



That's not true.
She has body image issues
She has sexual shame or history of CSA 
She has 6 kids
She is on hormonal birth control
She has anxiety, untreated


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I understand this, but women have to realize how bad this looks from the other side.
> 
> Its OK to not be willing to do oral, but doing it while dating, then stopping once a man is "trapped" is really unfair and deceptive. (as is anything that is done to trap a partner, but the stopped).


Do you treat your wife exactly how you did while dating?

If not does it mean you were deceptive?

Lots of things change as life happens.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Do you treat your wife exactly how you did while dating?
> 
> If not does it mean you were deceptive?
> 
> Lots of things change as life happens.


So damn true!

The first time I told my husband I wanted him to date me he said and I quote "why would I do that? We're already married."


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> The reason he didn't include this information was explained in his opening post.
> 
> 
> 
> And I don't get this assumption that the situation was foisted upon his wife against her will. The wife most likely had (at least) an equal say. A co-worker of mine has six kids. It's because it's what his wife wanted, he would have happily stopped sooner. When you consciously decide to have six kids, you don't get to be excused from the consequences.


 So why is it that these consequences are only to be borne by her?

By your logic he went along with 6 kids as well. 

Yet he's somehow still entitled to kinky sex and bj's.

Why does he get to escape consequences of all these kids but she doesn't?

Him intentionally leaving out that they have 6 kids is deceptive and designed to present a false reality where he can get sympathy for not getting what he feels he's entitled to. 

Hypothetical situation: what if I came on here complaining about lack of sex from my hb but conveniently failed to mention that he'd been very ill because I didn't want to bias the answers? Wouldn't that radically change the equation?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Buddy,

He can do whatever he wants. The prefer to jerk off message to his wife means: he thinks she is really bad in bed

If that's the message he wants to send - fire away. It's a very high risk move. Especially after 6 kids. 




Buddy400 said:


> What if he *would* rather jerk off than have sex with her?
> 
> Is he compelled to have sex with her anyway?


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Buddy,
> 
> He can do whatever he wants. The prefer to jerk off message to his wife means: he thinks she is really bad in bed
> 
> If that's the message he wants to send - fire away. It's a very high risk move. Especially after 6 kids.


Preferring to jerk off and not much non sexual touching leads to limited bond between husband and wife and ultimately a poor marriage.

It also leads to a wife who's going to be vulnerable to someone who does show her attention.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

alexm said:


> Let me start by saying that I don't disagree with you about this!
> 
> That said, I dislike how it's _almost_ always the guy who has to push the right buttons, do the right things, etc. to get* anywhere with sex*.


Let's be real. It's not 'things like sex.' It's sex. Period. Everything else in a marriage can be discussed and worked out. But when you're talking about your SO giving up their body to you in such an intimate way, it's just not the same as anything else.

And add to that that biologically, women have to be invested in the emotional aspect to DESIRE sex, well, yeah, it sucks that men have to pay attention to that pesky old relationship stuff. But that's what you get with human beings. And honestly, if you look around, you'll see plenty MORE animals and mammals and other species in which the male pursues the female just to get that sex. I'm willing to bet that's part of the 'grand design' of this world. 

Can men whine about how they have to 'work' at getting a woman turned on? Sure they can.

Or they could just ACCEPT that that's how males and females are, just like you'd accept how a spouse of a paraplegic has to deal with a wheelchair. It is what it is: women need the emotional aspect (or lack of lovebusters) in order to be up to, and involved in, great sex.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

uhtred said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Doesn't apply to me in any case. My wife (almost) never gave BJs, and I still take her on dates.


That wasn't the point of my post; it was a reply to the contention that women baitswitched. Just like before you were married, dates don't guarantee men sex. But if you want an environment in which women are amenable to sex, it behooves you to pay attention to meeting her needs.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

alexm said:


> Here's irony for you: My ex wife was a high maintenance, demanding princess of a woman, and my boundaries were weak with her. She still took care of me, sexually, though. BJ's were swapped out for HJ's once her jaw started locking on the regular. TMJ, look it up if you're not familiar.
> 
> My current wife is none of those things.


Well, that's the point, isn't it? Every single woman is unique. So to expect one woman you're with to like or give BJs just because your last one did is just as ridiculous as a woman expecting her husband enjoying going to the ballet just because he last boyfriend did.

And let's be clear. Sex...that's one thing. BJs - that's a whole other level of sex, in which you're asking a woman to stuff something in her mouth that often smells bad, or has hair floating around that gets in her mouth, or that's big enough to cause a gag reflex; thus the main reason most women will do it is simply to make her man happy - not because it's any walk in the park for HER. There's a lot more to this than we're really discussing.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think I treat her better in pretty much every way I can think of. We dated when I was in college and had very limited time and very limited money. Add to that very little experience with romance. 

Romantic movies may make dating when you are poor and hard-working seem romantic, but the reality is very different. A bouquet of flowers would mean that I had to skip a meal or two. A sandwich place was literally all I could afford for a date. Never-ending homework meant that there was extremely little time for romance. Living in college dorms meant that even curling up next to each other to watch TV wasn't an option. 

Now we can go on dinner dates, or take a romantic weekend away - or a romantic week in the south pacific or Venice. Whenever I'm on a business trip I send flowers to her office. We can cuddle on the sofa and watch a movie without roommates, and without worrying that I still have to finish my phys 106 homework. 


She treats me better than she did back then too. Life is good - other than the limited sex. 







lifeistooshort said:


> Do you treat your wife exactly how you did while dating?
> 
> If not does it mean you were deceptive?
> 
> Lots of things change as life happens.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Do you treat your wife exactly how you did while dating?
> 
> If not does it mean you were deceptive?
> 
> Lots of things change as life happens.


If I don't, then yes, I would have been deceptive.

Probably I wouldn't have been intentionally deceptive, but I would have been deceptive never the less.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I think we're giving men a complex about their penises.

If you bathe regularly, it won't smell bad.
Please trim your pubes because nothing ends a blow job faster than not being able to get the damn hair out of your mouth!
Size does matter...when it comes to BJ's. Smaller is best. So you big fellas might have an even bigger hurdle. 

Giving your man a blow job is a sexual act of nurturing. If she's nurtured out... she needs you to refill her nurture tank. If she doesn't feel well loved, she's not going to feel like giving you a blow job. If she doesn't respect you, she's not going to feel nurturing toward you.

If she can't get past the adolescent yuckines of penis in mouth that's something she has to work on, and yes IMO she should work on that. She may have been able to force herself past this hurdle because she didn't want you to think she was a prude when you were dating.

Your blow jobs disappeared because of something on this list. Some things you can affect, others you can not. Might be one thing, might be several things. Might be something else tomorrow.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> So why is it that these consequences are only to be borne by her?
> 
> By your logic he went along with 6 kids as well.
> 
> ...


Sure, he has to bear the consequences as well. It's just that the six kids seemed to be used as a reason she couldn't be expected to meet her husband's needs as if she had no agency in the decision to have six kids.

No one is entitled to anything.

I think the not mentioning six kids in the OP is being interpreted as an attempt to purposely mislead and I think that's an overly negative interpretation of his motives.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

turnera said:


> And let's be clear. Sex...that's one thing. BJs - that's a whole other level of sex, in which you're asking a woman to stuff something in her mouth that often smells bad, or has hair floating around that gets in her mouth, or that's big enough to cause a gag reflex; thus the main reason most women will do it is simply to make her man happy - not because it's any walk in the park for HER. There's a lot more to this than we're really discussing.


Sure. That's what makes BJs so compelling. Having a woman do something primarily for your benefit, when there's little in it for her.

One of the few things in it for the woman is the satisfaction of giving her man pleasure.

Now, if she doesn't get any satisfaction from giving her man pleasure..... well, that's worth knowing.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> Not once have I seen a woman who's issue is that her husband isn't that affectionate, be advised to give him a BJ, or be more sexual, or whatever - thus making him more affectionate. But it should be true, right?


Well, that wouldn't be in SIM. Maybe General Relationships?

I don't think it's there either on TAM but, in fairness, I have seen such advice elsewhere. It's a minority opinion but it does exist.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Its the same.
> 
> Averaged over everyone the genders probably do about equally - but that isn't what matters. This board is full of posts of women who will do anything for their husbands but get nothing in return, and men who will do anything for their wives and get nothing in return. The overall male / female account may be balanced worldwide but many relationships are not.


This is very true.

My theory is that there are givers and there are takers and they tend to be paired up with each other.

So the giving woman do everything for their man and get nothing in return and the giving men do everything for their woman and get nothing in return.

Giving men look at this situation and think "hey, all the ******* men are getting plenty of sex and the good men aren't so women must be sexually attracted to *******s".

But this is because they are taker men in relationships with giving women and he's a giver man in a relationship with a taker woman.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Sure, he has to bear the consequences as well. It's just that the six kids seemed to be used as a reason she couldn't be expected to meet her husband's needs as if she had no agency in the decision to have six kids.
> 
> No one is entitled to anything.
> 
> I think the not mentioning six kids in the OP is being interpreted as an attempt to purposely mislead and I think that's an overly negative interpretation of his motives.


Maybe not intentionally but it is a HUGE factor! Most women in this thread think 6 kids and think he's lucky to get laid once a month. Damn lucky. 

And with 6 kids my standard advice of get away for a weekend without the kids at least every other month is impossible because who the hell is going to take in 6 kids every other month?

*Having 6 kids has got to an incredible joy!* Honestly, if I could forget the visceral memory of exhaustion and just remember how damn adorable it was to watch them play together, bathe together, see them get off the bus together... I'm smiling big right now.

Maybe I should hire myself out as a weekend nanny for over stressed parents who need to get away.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Turnera,
The only thing I'd add to this is the phrase 'in a long term relationship'.

Because in a quick, casual dating context - the behavioral driver is the chassis - not the spirit of the person. 

But in the long run - the spirit drives everything. 




turnera said:


> Let's be real. It's not 'things like sex.' It's sex. Period. Everything else in a marriage can be discussed and worked out. But when you're talking about your SO giving up their body to you in such an intimate way, it's just not the same as anything else.
> 
> And add to that that biologically, women have to be invested in the emotional aspect to DESIRE sex, well, yeah, it sucks that men have to pay attention to that pesky old relationship stuff. But that's what you get with human beings. And honestly, if you look around, you'll see plenty MORE animals and mammals and other species in which the male pursues the female just to get that sex. I'm willing to bet that's part of the 'grand design' of this world.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Uhtred,

I have read your posts for quite some time now. You are a good person. I hope my daughters marry someone like you. And ummm I hope they treat their husbands better than U2 treats you. 





uhtred said:


> I think I treat her better in pretty much every way I can think of. We dated when I was in college and had very limited time and very limited money. Add to that very little experience with romance.
> 
> Romantic movies may make dating when you are poor and hard-working seem romantic, but the reality is very different. A bouquet of flowers would mean that I had to skip a meal or two. A sandwich place was literally all I could afford for a date. Never-ending homework meant that there was extremely little time for romance. Living in college dorms meant that even curling up next to each other to watch TV wasn't an option.
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Maybe not intentionally but it is a HUGE factor! Most women in this thread think 6 kids and think he's lucky to get laid once a month. Damn lucky.
> 
> And with 6 kids my standard advice of get away for a weekend without the kids at least every other month is impossible because who the hell is going to take in 6 kids every other month?
> 
> ...


Totally agree with the bolded!

OP, I have 5, and a happy marriage.

But it would not be happy if my husband felt entitled to blow jobs, instead of seeing them as the gift they are.

Just something to think about . . .


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

jld said:


> But it would not be happy if my husband felt entitled to blow jobs, instead of seeing them as the gift they are.
> 
> Just something to think about . . .


He isn't seeing them as a gift because he isn't seeing them 

I'd see my wife mowing the lawn as a gift. If she ever mowed the lawn.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

MEM2020 said:


> Finwe,
> 
> Please reread what you have written below. Because the way this comes across is: No oral = boring sex life = me shutting our sex life down (sexless marriage).
> 
> ...


I don't think I am fixated. Our sex life followed the typical paths, super-awesome fantastic before marriage and after marriage it slowed down, (it had too!) Soon sex was the typical 2-4 times per month. This was your basic, simple, sex. This was pre-kids. Oral sex was a rarity even then. So rare in fact, that in our 20+ years of marriage, I am not sure if she performed oral on me more than one of her ex-boyfriends. The frequency of oral sex for me is counted by the year - not by months or weeks. Oral sex counts as just going down briefly - nothing to completion or crazy.

Why did I not say something sooner? I was young and stupid and thought I was being respectful. I thought hints would be enough. About 10 years ago I had a talk and recently had a few talks. 

After the last talk - I am done. I will work on myself and she is not responsible for my happiness. I am going to push her very hard to get some help with anxiety.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Finwe said:


> I don't think I am fixated. Our sex life followed the typical paths, super-awesome fantastic before marriage and after marriage it slowed down, (it had too!) Soon sex was the typical 2-4 times per month. This was your basic, simple, sex. This was pre-kids. Oral sex was a rarity even then. So rare in fact, that in our 20+ years of marriage, I am not sure if she performed oral on me more than one of her ex-boyfriends. The frequency of oral sex for me is counted by the year - not by months or weeks. Oral sex counts as just going down briefly - nothing to completion or crazy.
> 
> Why did I not say something sooner? I was young and stupid and thought I was being respectful. I thought hints would be enough. About 10 years ago I had a talk and recently had a few talks.
> 
> After the last talk - I am done. I will work on myself and she is not responsible for my happiness. I am going to push her very hard to get some help with anxiety.


So you didn't bring it up other than once in 20 years....and she's claiming that you're pressuring her?


Hmm.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> So you didn't bring it up other than once in 20 years....and she's claiming that you're pressuring her?
> 
> 
> Hmm.


Yeah. How can anyone be expected to do something when THAT much pressure is applied!


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Boy, this thread has taken off. I feel the need to clarify.

We love our children and they are a blessing and a challenge. Logistics for everything is an issue. But we do a lot of things with our big family - why can't the spouses have some sexy fun?

If my wife said she'd give me a BJ on a condition, I would do anything short of robbing a bank! A BJ is a gift and should not be expected. True. As are the million+one things my wife does for me everyday. But alas, in our marriage, BJs are so rarely given, (< 1 year).

I don't think I am fixated. I would like oral sex be a part of our sex life. The last time I brought this up was 10 years ago! I view sex as a gift, a privilege. 

I withheld the children and some other factors because I wanted information from wives on why a women would not got down, however briefly, on her husband. I spoke to my wife before and there were no issues. But considering the extreme rarity and her knowledge on the fact it drives me wild, why so rare? What was the hang up? So I asked her.

It is not religion, not hygiene, not ethics, nor anything physical or about her past. She doesn't perform oral sex because she feels pressure.

Reading between the lines, I think she simply REALLY DOESN'T like to do them. And she feels bad because she knows I like them. She is torn.

For me, I said my piece and I will no longer bring this up ever again. I will take pains to prevent my frustrations leading down paths of darkness.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> So you didn't bring it up other than once in 20 years....and she's claiming that you're pressuring her?
> 
> 
> Hmm.


Hence my post on TAM.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> These sorts of question are futile. The only person that can answer this is YOUR wife.


No, Mrs. Holland, he is asking you!

He wants pointers. For you to "point" at her reasons, hard and soft reasons that only a women can deliver.

OP can give the hard reasons. But those reasons along with three dollars will get you a cup of coffee anywhere.

He wants the skivvy on his undercover query. He wants to get the lowdown from the Dames here. So he get get her to get low, down on him.

He wants to "earn" this honor, of course. For him, no quid-pro-quo goes unreturned. He gets, she gets. Her s*Quid* {too} gets *Pro*-fessionally its *Quo*-tient of attention.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Maybe I should add this too. Enough about my wife. My previous partners did BJs and I could take it or leave it. When I met my wife, I fell for her so hard. She was the only women that I chased. I knew, within weeks of meeting her she was the one. Many times, I am amazed that she married me. Perhaps it was a moment of weakness. I am still very much in love with her.

When we started having sex - it was transcendent. Amazing. Oral sex from her was amazing. Absolutely amazing. Sex with her was like I never had sex before. And I don't have words for the oral sex - other than amazing.


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## Remee81 (May 24, 2017)

turnera said:


> Well, that's the point, isn't it? Every single woman is unique. So to expect one woman you're with to like or give BJs just because your last one did is just as ridiculous as a woman expecting her husband enjoying going to the ballet just because he last boyfriend did.
> 
> And let's be clear. Sex...that's one thing. BJs - that's a whole other level of sex, in which you're asking a woman to stuff something in her mouth that often smells bad, or has hair floating around that gets in her mouth, or that's big enough to cause a gag reflex; thus the main reason most women will do it is simply to make her man happy - not because it's any walk in the park for HER. There's a lot more to this than we're really discussing.




Gag reflex..ok yeah I get that some people have a sensitive one. If a person is hygienic there should not be odor, at least in my experience (not that I have had many). If it's a hair issue, clean up down there, us girls do! My husband doesn't do oral, I am trying other things to improve our sex life and just putting that out of the equation. I give him oral all the time, he greatly enjoys it, but he doesn't like to give it, never has. I accept that and do not hold resentment. Try and find pleasure in sex in different ways, give her non sexual affection it's important! Cuddle on the couch while watching tv, run ur fingers through her hair, hold her hand. Tell her she's beautiful every day. U may find that u can have a fully satisfying sex life without a bj. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Wait, I thought we were talking about a completed blow job not oral as part of foreplay. I don't see any reason why oral shouldn't be expected if we're taking foreplay.

Women expect to be touched in ways that work for them as part of foreplay. Men should expect to be touched in ways that work for them as part of foreplay. 

We all have sexual limits but clearly penis in mouth isn't a limit for OP's wife.

Does she know you only want this as part of foreplay?


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## SoSmartJuliet (May 25, 2017)

I read I think in a Psychology Today article (??can't quite remember) that a lot of the actions we perform during sex should natural repel us: for example, we're literally swallowing a portion of the other person's saliva when we French kiss, and sex is naturally wet, a little sticky and generally has an odor...not a horrific one, but when you think of how we culturally are used to odors being covered up this makes more sense.

Anyway, we supposedly "turn off" that natural repulsion in order to copulate. And this will continue for some time with the same partner. However, for the average person (and for other animals) over time, that "turnoff" mechanism reverts and we start being grossed out again.

This is VERY general and I'm sure not true of every single couple or of any one particular sex act in a universal fashion but I can say that oral IS pretty messy and can be physically uncomfortable. When I'm wild about my man I LOVE doing it but if I'm not 100% there mentally and emotionally and with love I can say the discomforts seem to be...bigger. I don't like to gag. I don't like to try to have to swallow back my own spit while my mouth is actually being held open by...yeah. (Sorry...) I don't like worrying that my teeth may grate. It's not a horrific act BY ANY MEANS...unless I'm not feeling it in other ways with my guy (entirely conversely, when I'm in love/lust it's amazingly stimulating and I can't get enough of doing it). I think this "repulsion turnoff" thing could have some validity, TBH, and I think certain circumstances can make it go "poof" again...maybe over-familiarity/a long time together for some, maybe inner resentments for others, could be anything.

I haven't read this whole thread - it's 10 pages long, by my setup/preferences, anyway - but I'll be honest, if this is a sudden change OR if it was gradual BUT she used to be quite happy doing it, I'd look into resentments...not being fully into the relationship (not scaring you, just covering all the bases)...the possibility that she may never have liked it to begin with and it isn't you as a person at all, it's just the act...I don't know, I'd be thinking more than "If I like it why doesn't she do it?" There could be some real reasons there.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Buddy400 said:


> Sure, he has to bear the consequences as well. It's just that the six kids seemed to be used as a reason she couldn't be expected to meet her husband's needs


No, they were used as a reason to understand that even if she was horny as hell, she may be too exhausted and too overwrought with six little devils - especially a 1 year old that requires constant supervision - constantly running around to be able to relax enough to do it.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Finwe said:


> I don't think I am fixated. Our sex life followed the typical paths, super-awesome fantastic before marriage and after marriage it slowed down, (it had too!) Soon sex was the *typical 2-4 times per month*. This was your basic, simple, sex. This was pre-kids.


Umm, not sure where you are getting this number from? I was married for close to 15 years and we were having sex 2-4 timer per week and that was AFTER having kids. Hindsight is 20-20 but you should have gotten out before having kids with her. 

I'm going to share something with you. Guys that give their wives the control over their sex life are at their wive's whim. Guys that maintain control of their sex lives don't have this problem. There's a big difference between asking your wife if she wants to have sex and leading her to the bedroom and having sex (I mean this in an assertive, not a rapey, kind of way). Same thing applies with BJ's.


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## SoSmartJuliet (May 25, 2017)

Bananapeel said:


> Umm, not sure where you are getting this number from? I was married for close to 15 years and we were having sex 2-4 timer per week and that was AFTER having kids. Hindsight is 20-20 but you should have gotten out before having kids with her.
> 
> I'm going to share something with you. Guys that give their wives the control over their sex life are at their wive's whim. Guys that maintain control of their sex lives don't have this problem. There's a big difference between asking your wife if she wants to have sex and leading her to the bedroom and having sex (I mean this in an assertive, not a rapey, kind of way). Same thing applies with BJ's.


Okay, so...by taking control of the BJs, what is a non-rapey, assertive way?

I don't mean graphically, I'm not asking for a bunch of visuals here, I just am not sure of how I would feel about my husband "taking control of" our sex life (??) lest I do (double ??) and assertively assuring himself of blowies.

I feel like if either or both of you is/are thinking of this as which one of you will take control of the sex life, it's already combative and headed for the toilet. Nobody's going to win. Just my $.02.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Bananapeel said:


> Umm, not sure where you are getting this number from? I was married for close to 15 years and we were having sex 2-4 timer per week and that was AFTER having kids. Hindsight is 20-20 but you should have gotten out before having kids with her.
> 
> I'm going to share something with you. Guys that give their wives the control over their sex life are at their wive's whim. Guys that maintain control of their sex lives don't have this problem. There's a big difference between asking your wife if she wants to have sex and leading her to the bedroom and having sex (I mean this in an assertive, not a rapey, kind of way). Same thing applies with BJ's.


I got that data from some surveys. Bananapeel, this post is tough. A lot has changed from the beginning of our marriage to now. We had some times when sex was more frequent - up to 20-25 times per month but it settles to once every 1.5 weeks or so. The frequency was fine - I don't remember her ever saying no to sex, ever. So I can have all the vanilla sex I want. She can have all the sex she wants, and I will do most anything to please her, 

I take my vows seriously. Love is a action not a noun. Her reluctance to go down on me was never a divorce issue. I am a trusting person, I usually think people will do the right thing. She told me she would like me to initiate more. I don't initiate much just because I am bored with our sex life. I would rather read for a bit or watch some Netflix. So she feels unloved...

One time I was assertive in the oral sex area - and she felt manipulated. This was about 1.5 years ago. Being what you and I call assertive would have been disastrous in this case.

Should I have gotten out? We went through some rocky periods and I never viewed leaving as an option. I am not sure if the alternative would have been better. My wife has improved my life in nearly every area, (diet, mental health, professionally, intellectually, culturally, etc). No marriage is perfect.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Do you treat your wife exactly how you did while dating?
> 
> If not does it mean you were deceptive?
> 
> Lots of things change as life happens.


Like everything else, YMMV.

When we were dating, my wife worked full time at a stressful demanding job. She rented her own apartment. We went on dates on Saturday night and had sex at the end of each date. We did not see each other in between because both were working full time and she lived miles away from me and I did not have a car.

Then we got married. She stopped working a stressful job and worked at a nonprofit for very low pay but much emotional satisfaction. We moved in together. I paid the rent on an apartment that was larger than either of the ones we had been renting ourselves. I leased her a new car. I still took her on dates. And yet we had less sex than when she was on her own. And yes, I am talking before the kids arrived.

As @alexm likes to say, it isn't always the case that the guy stops paying attention to his wife when he marries her.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

turnera said:


> Let's be real. It's not 'things like sex.' It's sex. Period. Everything else in a marriage can be discussed and worked out. But when you're talking about your SO giving up their body to you in such an intimate way, it's just not the same as anything else.
> 
> And add to that that biologically, women have to be invested in the emotional aspect to DESIRE sex, well, yeah, it sucks that men have to pay attention to that pesky old relationship stuff. But that's what you get with human beings. And honestly, if you look around, you'll see plenty MORE animals and mammals and other species in which the male pursues the female just to get that sex. I'm willing to bet that's part of the 'grand design' of this world.
> 
> ...


I'm not whining about it. I'm saying that many men already DO these things, with little to no result. And then when it comes out that they DO these things, they're often told to NOT do them, to get her attention.

Which is it? Not enough, or too much?

I know this stuff is complicated, but the question is why? Men "know" what we're supposed to do. When we don't do them, we're stupid.

If a dude comes home from work, parks his ass on the couch, and stares at the TV while downing a few beers, ignoring his wife, he shouldn't have to wonder why he's not getting laid.

If a dude comes home from work, listens to his wife about her day, helps make dinner, spends time with the kids, gives his wife a foot rub on the couch later, then damn right, he should be wondering why he's not getting laid.

I finished work a couple of hours ago. I've mowed the lawn, emptied the dishwasher, picked up pet food on the way home, took a shower, and have tonight's dinner ready to make once everybody else gets home. The older kid is gone to his girlfriends, which mean I'll have to go pick him up around 10 tonight. At which point, my wife will likely have gone to bed.

This is most days for me. I don't complain or whine. I don't do it to get laid - I do it because I can, and I should. My wife often TELLS me that she appreciates it (and she doesn't have to, BTW), but she never SHOWS me she appreciates it. This is not a covert contract on my part. I don't expect to get laid or to get a BJ. But damn, it would be nice.

Because that's the way it's supposing to ****ing work, people (men AND women). SHOW your partner you appreciate them, in the ways that are important to them - not you.

And no matter how many times some of us tell our partners this, they just don't get it. In one ear, out the other.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Finwe - It's great that you are content with what you have with her in all the other ways. However, if a BJ or a better sex life is what you really want, then figure out how to get that from her. I'm used to getting what I want in bed and I find it a bit humorous if a woman tells me she doesn't do certain things sexually, because I know that those rules don't apply to me. I project that and then we end up having a really good sex life with a lot more variety, which benefits both of us. 

I think part of your problem is that you are actually OK with having a boring sex life, so you wife is getting bored with sex with you and thus limiting what she is willing to do (frequency and variety). Women that are really turned on, have their emotional needs met, and are attracted to you usually do not restrict what you can do with them. Since you have lots of kids around, to meet her emotional needs you need to treat her like a sensual woman and not just a mom. Doing something regularly to get her to forget about the kids and focus on you will pay dividends. Then focus on turning her on by flirting with her through the day so she is looking forward to/anticipating sex well before it to happens. If she still puts up resistance to your advances just brush them off and tease her about it. For example, if she says she doesn't want to give a BJ, then tease her and say not to worry, she's not that bad at them and that you'll instruct her on what you like. But you have to do that in a confident/alpha manner and realize that you are setting the stage for later in the relationship as opposed to that night.


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## Remee81 (May 24, 2017)

Finwe said:


> I got that data from some surveys. Bananapeel, this post is tough. A lot has changed from the beginning of our marriage to now. We had some times when sex was more frequent - up to 20-25 times per month but it settles to once every 1.5 weeks or so. The frequency was fine - I don't remember her ever saying no to sex, ever. So I can have all the vanilla sex I want. She can have all the sex she wants, and I will do most anything to please her,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If that's typical, DH and I are addicts. Ten years married and sex 5 or more times a week. There r other issues but frequency isn't one of them. We also make sure to schedule in a date night. A nice dinner out, I have a nice glass of wine, him a beer and then we go do something else. Even as simple as walking around the village and grabbing an ice cream. It keeps the marriage from becoming complacent. Just because we said our vows doesn't mean dates should stop. Especially with kids, couples need time one on one. Try dating again, maybe that will put ur relationship back to being close and lust for one another. If you are bored with sex, try new things! That's what DH and I are doing to improve it and not get bored with the "routine"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

T/J - What exactly about having 6 kids mean that you should have a crap sex life? I mean, when you had 5, it took sex to get you to 6. end T/J.


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

Bananapeel said:


> Finwe - It's great that you are content with what you have with her in all the other ways. However, if a BJ or a better sex life is what you really want, then figure out how to get that from her. I'm used to getting what I want in bed and I find it a bit humorous if a woman tells me she doesn't do certain things sexually, because I know that those rules don't apply to me. I project that and then we end up having a really good sex life with a lot more variety, which benefits both of us.
> 
> I think part of your problem is that you are actually OK with having a boring sex life, so you wife is getting bored with sex with you and thus limiting what she is willing to do (frequency and variety). Women that are really turned on, have their emotional needs met, and are attracted to you usually do not restrict what you can do with them. Since you have lots of kids around, to meet her emotional needs you need to treat her like a sensual woman and not just a mom. *Doing something regularly to get her to forget about the kids and focus on you will pay dividends. Then focus on turning her on by flirting with her through the day so she is looking forward to/anticipating sex well before it to happens. *If she still puts up resistance to your advances just brush them off and tease her about it. For example, if she says she doesn't want to give a BJ, then tease her and say not to worry, she's not that bad at them and that you'll instruct her on what you like. But you have to do that in a confident/alpha manner and realize that you are setting the stage for later in the relationship as opposed to that night.


When our children were younger (they are 19 & 20 now) H used to surprise me by slipping erotic reading material under my pillow with notes regarding what thrilled him the most about our sex life. My drive had definitely taken a hit by the time those little libido killers were 2 and 3. Reading helped rev the engine and take my mind out of "mom zone"


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

SoSmartJuliet said:


> Okay, so...by taking control of the BJs, what is a non-rapey, assertive way?
> 
> I don't mean graphically, I'm not asking for a bunch of visuals here, I just am not sure of how I would feel about my husband "taking control of" our sex life (??) lest I do (double ??) and assertively assuring himself of blowies.


By doing something like using this book of invitations.

52 Invitations to Grrreat Sex: Opening the Mail Will Never Be the Same by Laura Corn, Paperback | Barnes & Noble®

Women, unless they're repressed or former abuse victims or just really unhappy with their husbands, will respond wonderfully to something like this, where it takes the event out of the ordinary 'let's get this done before the kids come in' and put in a whole other level - an event to be treasured.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Bananapeel said:


> Finwe - It's great that you are content with what you have with her in all the other ways. However, if a BJ or a better sex life is what you really want, then figure out how to get that from her. I'm used to getting what I want in bed and I find it a bit humorous if a woman tells me she doesn't do certain things sexually, because I know that those rules don't apply to me. I project that and then we end up having a really good sex life with a lot more variety, which benefits both of us.
> 
> I think part of your problem is that you are actually OK with having a boring sex life, so you wife is getting bored with sex with you and thus limiting what she is willing to do (frequency and variety). Women that are really turned on, have their emotional needs met, and are attracted to you usually do not restrict what you can do with them. Since you have lots of kids around, to meet her emotional needs you need to treat her like a sensual woman and not just a mom. Doing something regularly to get her to forget about the kids and focus on you will pay dividends. Then focus on turning her on by flirting with her through the day so she is looking forward to/anticipating sex well before it to happens. If she still puts up resistance to your advances just brush them off and tease her about it. For example, if she says she doesn't want to give a BJ, then tease her and say not to worry, she's not that bad at them and that you'll instruct her on what you like. But you have to do that in a confident/alpha manner and realize that you are setting the stage for later in the relationship as opposed to that night.


You are making me think. The Mrs. & I have attended MC many years ago and have taken classes. I have read several books on this subject. 

I may not be very good at the emotional needs stuff. For example, I do a lot around the house, tons of laundry, organization, go to functions I would rather not go to, etc. But "Acts of Service" is not one of her love languages, as are most of things I gravitate too.

She likes quality time and touch. I have scheduled dates but most of the time they do not go well. I still try. I tried some of the techniques I found in books, writing love letter, buy flowers, schedule dates, etc. She is appreciative of them - but it just does not translate to the bedroom. 

Then I feel like I am doing it for a BJ - which feels like a sordid transaction. That was the basis of the class we took many years ago. Do x, get y. Do y, get z. 

I have tried humor over the years, jokes, a bit of levity in the bedroom. It all comes down to this:

She prefers not to perform oral sex because she feels manipulated. I don't think asking, after 20+ years of marriage, 6 kids, two mortgages, several careers, and more, is manipulation. 

My conjecture: She dislikes giving BJs and feels bad because I love it. So she feels pressured which equals manipulation. And she has a lot of pressure in her life.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Don't Panic said:


> When our children were younger (they are 19 & 20 now) H used to surprise me by slipping erotic reading material under my pillow with notes regarding what thrilled him the most about our sex life. My drive had definitely taken a hit by the time those little libido killers were 2 and 3. Reading helped rev the engine and take my mind out of "mom zone"


I accidentally discovered that many Western novels are great at getting the engine revved up and actually still keep one with appropriate pages dog-eared for quick reference. No lie.


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## SoSmartJuliet (May 25, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> Like everything else, YMMV.
> 
> When we were dating, my wife worked full time at a stressful demanding job. She rented her own apartment. We went on dates on Saturday night and had sex at the end of each date. We did not see each other in between because both were working full time and she lived miles away from me and I did not have a car.
> 
> ...


I agree, it's not always lack of attention. And I'm definitely not doubting you.

But I WILL say this. What I've heard more often than not (there will always be exceptions) in scenarios such as the above, is that this woman who was apparently just hanging out at home, pretty much became nothing much more than somebody to hang around cleaning the house, and to occasionally fvck.

That does a number to just how sexy the woman feels.

Even if the man "contributes" to the scut-work of cleaning and so on, if that's ALL the woman does, she's not going to feel very sexy. Again, with a few exceptions.

As I said, I'm not doubting you. But people can and do start to look at their mates differently under similar circumstances. And this is never going to make a woman feel sexy. ESPECIALLY (again, not saying this is the case with you...just saying I see it all the time...seriously all the time, even if the wife works part-time, works from home, hell, sometimes if she works full-time) if it's "assumed" without words that the wife will be doing more of the dishes, more of the cleaning, more of the gross very non-romantic stuff that will over time build huge resentments on her part and as I said, make her feel anything but sexy.

Common refrain:

"My husband treats me like a maid, then expects me to lie down for him because he randomly remembered to bring me flowers last week."

"My wife has totally lost interest in sex and I have zero idea why."

This is really an ages-old circular marriage loop.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Finwe, we get a lot of posts on TAM about sexless marriages, and people leave their marriages because of a poor sex life at times. But for them, poor means non-existent. 

I am happy to read the below post, because it puts things in a different context. This not a divorcable issue for you, and in fact your wife doesn't refuse you sex. It's just boring and vanilla to you so you're not that into it. That's a problem, but it's not a Big Problem, not a Marital-Threatening Problem like we see here so often.

If your wife isn't into blow jobs, then isn't much you can do about it. Maybe she will change, but I wouldn't count on it. The reason why she's not into them doesn't matter much, once you've verified that it's not a hygiene or other fixable issue. It's something specific to her, not you. 

Hopefully, one of these days, things will shift a little in your relationship and your sexual relationship with her will improve. There are many people who would jump at the chance to have the problem of having "as much vanilla sex" as they want. Once there is more time and less anxiety, maybe things will spice up a bit (even if sex still remains oral-free.) 





Finwe said:


> I got that data from some surveys. Bananapeel, this post is tough. A lot has changed from the beginning of our marriage to now. We had some times when sex was more frequent - up to 20-25 times per month but it settles to once every 1.5 weeks or so. The frequency was fine - I don't remember her ever saying no to sex, ever. So I can have all the vanilla sex I want. She can have all the sex she wants, and I will do most anything to please her,
> 
> I take my vows seriously. Love is a action not a noun. Her reluctance to go down on me was never a divorce issue. I am a trusting person, I usually think people will do the right thing. She told me she would like me to initiate more. I don't initiate much just because I am bored with our sex life. I would rather read for a bit or watch some Netflix. So she feels unloved...
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

SoSmartJuliet said:


> And I'm definitely not doubting you.
> 
> But I WILL say this. What I've heard more often than not (there will always be exceptions) in scenarios such as the above, is that this woman who was apparently just hanging out at home, pretty much became nothing much more than somebody to hang around cleaning the house, and to occasionally fvck.


I think it is more about the topic @Bananapeel raised. Some of us men are not that attractive. Not that good in bed. Not that dominant. Kinda boring and uninspiring. So our women are not inspired to have sex with us. Whether we take them on dates or help with household chores is besides the point. They aren't hot for us.

The answer is not more dinners at Appleby's or doing loads of laundry. It is hitting the gym. More sylish clothes and haircut. Rock it at work. And use the extra income to spice up the leisure activities. Then, as you get her to have more sex, spice things up and don't let it become SOSO.


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## SoSmartJuliet (May 25, 2017)

Finwe said:


> You are making me think. The Mrs. & I have attended MC many years ago and have taken classes. I have read several books on this subject.
> 
> I may not be very good at the emotional needs stuff. For example, I do a lot around the house, tons of laundry, organization, go to functions I would rather not go to, etc. But "Acts of Service" is not one of her love languages, as are most of things I gravitate too.
> 
> ...


In what way does she feel manipulated? That's pretty specific. I can see a woman saying she feels pressured but manipulated...well, that's kind of its own thing. I feel like there must be more to this part of the story. I'm wondering whether it ties in with a pattern you've described as do X, get Y. If she's still getting that sense for whatever reason then I agree that that will feel like manipulation.

I know when my husband used to want sex (that aspect is barely there now, long story) he would do "nice" things "for" me *until* the sex. Then immediately, like a switch going off, he was distant again, as if I were the maid and part-time income-earner and full-time mother and that was it. I am SURE he had NO idea this was what he was doing. I'm 100% sure it was subconscious. He'd act shocked if I were to tell him I was aware of the above scenario...because he wasn't. It's just the way he operated, deep down. He was being nice to get sex. Then after the sex, just when I'd have loved to bask in one another, he dropped me like I was a ***** and he was dropping a $20 on the dresser and going off to shower so he'd smell nice again. Seriously that's how it felt.

If I were you I'd be thinking deeper into why rather than simply saying she doesn't want to, or even that she doesn't feel loved, or...whatever, she is specifying that she feels manipulated. I don't mean to imply you should have to run around in circles and jump through hoops just to get a blowie but obviously SOMETHING'S going wrong in there.


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## SoSmartJuliet (May 25, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> I think it is more about the topic @Bananapeel raised. Some of us men are not that attractive. Not that good in bed. Not that dominant. Kinda boring and uninspiring. So our women are not inspired to have sex with us. Whether we take them on dates or help with household chores is besides the point. They aren't hot for us.
> 
> The answer is not more dinners at Appleby's or doing loads of laundry. It is hitting the gym. More sylish clothes and haircut. Rock it at work. And use the extra income to spice up the leisure activities. Then, as you get her to have more sex, spice things up and don't let it become SOSO.



But they _were_ inspired. They _did _want and have sex with you. They _did_ think you were attractive. You know this because the woman at one time wanted, loved and married you. Right?

I don't think how you see a woman (for instance, as a maid, to follow this theme and give an example) is beside the point, indeed it can often be the WHOLE point.

This is why I say this whole issue is ages-old and circular, I mean if such an argument has been around since pretty much the dawn of domesticity don't you think there may be something to it? Just blowing this off and saying it can't be true, and deciding that meh, somehow the woman magically lost interest for no reason at all, kind of boggles my head (though I've seen it, too...again, countless times)...why is it better to say meh, women just aren't attracted to their husbands (uh, so why did they marry them???) than to say "Hey, I wonder if there's a pattern here and I wonder if it goes a little deeper?" Is it because the latter feels like it will entail so much work? It will. Marriage is work. If one is not up for that one probably shouldn't be married. And BTW, I'm not throwing a dart there, I myself wish I had never gotten married and when I'm divorced, plan on never doing it again. For some of us it IS too much work (and/or pain). But if you're not among that faction, just blowing off possibilities and saying "she's just not attracted" isn't going to solve a thing. 

As for "dominant"...why do I keep seeing that here?  Along with the whole "make your wife give you BJs" thing, I don't know...I mean beware, guys...just sayin'. I suppose this is working for some men so I won't say it's useless but trying to "be dominant" and demand that blowie and so on...and "make" her attracted to you again by stomping all around the place and calling the shots...well, dude. For many many couples this will backfire and it will backfire big. Just a suggestion, be careful there.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Bananapeel said:


> I think part of your problem is that you are actually OK with having a boring sex life, so you wife is getting bored with sex with you and thus limiting what she is willing to do (frequency and variety). Women that are really turned on, have their emotional needs met, and are attracted to you usually do not restrict what you can do with them. Since you have lots of kids around, to meet her emotional needs you need to treat her like a sensual woman and not just a mom. Doing something regularly to get her to forget about the kids and focus on you will pay dividends. Then focus on turning her on by flirting with her through the day so she is looking forward to/anticipating sex well before it to happens. If she still puts up resistance to your advances just brush them off and tease her about it. For example, if she says she doesn't want to give a BJ, then tease her and say not to worry, she's not that bad at them and that you'll instruct her on what you like. But you have to do that in a confident/alpha manner and realize that you are setting the stage for later in the relationship as opposed to that night.


SO TRUE! It's ALL ABOUT the attitude, the approach, and how the marriage is in general, barring previous abuse. Why I keep recommending the 52 Invitations book. For men who don't naturally 'take what they want' like you do, this book is a great way to get the two of you on the same page, collaborative, behind closed doors, with only one mission at hand: having fun in bed. 

Now, if OP were to try to do something like this, he couldn't just jump into it and expect results. It's a full-on culture shift. Not overnight.

One time my H picked me up from work, surprising me, and took me to a place he'd booked. He'd packed swimsuits and a change of clothes. We got there, and it was a home that offered couples massages and then showers, and then they left the house to us - complete with music, wine and cheese, a roaring fire, hammocks on the deck, and a hot tub. Most romantic night of my life; I remember like it was yesterday (28 years ago). Because he TOOK CHARGE and made sure I had a great time, but that I knew I was his focus. Made me feel like a girl again. A lover. Desired. 

Men who just give up without CHANGING what they do - except for complaining...well, why would women want to adjust for that? It's all about that attitude I was talking about, the seduction, the acknowledgment that women NEED TO BE PURSUED to want to be wild and crazy. Be unhappy with that all you want; what'll it get ya? No sex.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Finwe said:


> She told me she would like me to initiate more. I don't initiate much just because I am bored with our sex life. I would rather read for a bit or watch some Netflix. So she feels unloved...


Do you blame her? She specifically ASKED you to do something and you refused because you're too lazy to spice things up. I guess you're waiting for her to ravish you in bed and if she won't, you're not gonna play?



> One time I was assertive in the oral sex area - and she felt manipulated. This was about 1.5 years ago. Being what you and I call assertive would have been disastrous in this case.


Describe what you mean by assertive.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Holdingontoit said:


> Like everything else, YMMV.
> 
> When we were dating, my wife worked full time at a stressful demanding job. She rented her own apartment. We went on dates on Saturday night and had sex at the end of each date. We did not see each other in between because both were working full time and she lived miles away from me and I did not have a car.
> 
> ...


Yes, but your wife is one of the situations with previous abuse, so she is not the norm. Women like her and me give up the sex because we're supposed to, while searching for a partner. Once we're married, many if not most abuse victims will stop participating because they're depending on your loving them to not force them to do something that's mentally painful.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

alexm said:


> I'm not whining about it. I'm saying that many men already DO these things, with little to no result. And then when it comes out that they DO these things, they're often told to NOT do them, to get her attention.
> 
> Which is it? Not enough, or too much?
> 
> I know this stuff is complicated, but the question is why? Men "know" what we're supposed to do. When we don't do them, we're stupid.


Good basic article on it: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...d-married-couples-does-sexual-quality-decline


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

turnera said:


> Do you blame her? She specifically ASKED you to do something and you refused because you're too lazy to spice things up. I guess you're waiting for her to ravish you in bed and if she won't, you're not gonna play?
> 
> Describe what you mean by assertive.


Rather than the talk#2, it crossed my mind to "ravish" in every way, shape, and form. Make sure she is taken care of sexually taken care of. Then request kisses in certain spots, then request kisses closer and closer to the promise land.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

turnera said:


> SO TRUE! It's ALL ABOUT the attitude, the approach, and how the marriage is in general, barring previous abuse. Why I keep recommending the 52 Invitations book. For men who don't naturally 'take what they want' like you do, this book is a great way to get the two of you on the same page, collaborative, behind closed doors, with only one mission at hand: having fun in bed.
> 
> Now, if OP were to try to do something like this, he couldn't just jump into it and expect results. It's a full-on culture shift. Not overnight.
> 
> ...


I am willing to change. I have done similar things in the past with the Mrs. and sometimes we had a great time, and sometimes I ended reading a book. I am to blame for this too. Not all on her.

She has told me she wants to be desired, pursued, and connected. It just seems the harder I try the worse it gets. If I would scoop her up and take her to a couples spa - she would love it. I could have the special flowers she likes, write her a poem, buy the best seafood, - and I would be sure to make sweet love to her - but the odds of a BJ would be very low, and if I would imply or ask for one, I suspect the spa, flowers, poetry, - all would be thrown back at me as intricate plan to manipulate and pressure her into oral sex. 

I have taken to hotels with pools, as she loves to swim, with a sitter for a day or two, and the connection and sex is good, but lacking in the BJ area, at least on my end. There have been times were I totally serviced her but no reciprocation. Which is disappointing.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

SoSmartJuliet said:


> But they _were_ inspired. They _did _want and have sex with you. They _did_ think you were attractive. You know this because the woman at one time wanted, loved and married you. Right?


Not necessarily. Maybe she wanted to get married. Maybe she wanted to have kids and thought I would be a good co-parent.

Not everyone marries someone they are physically / sexually hot for. Not everyone has sex before marriage because they enjoy the sex. Some have an agenda. Some have rape or abuse in their past and can dissociate and have sex with people they don't much care about but become terrified of having sex with someone emotionally close.

Yes, sometimes a spouse gets complacent. Sometimes they stop dating / romancing their spouse. Yes, marriage is work and some of us are lazy.

But sometimes we simply aren't well matched, don't figure that out until far too late, and aren't assertive enough to insist on change or leave to see k it elsewhere.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Finwe said:


> You are making me think. The Mrs. & I have attended MC many years ago and have taken classes. I have read several books on this subject.
> 
> I may not be very good at the emotional needs stuff. For example, I do a lot around the house, tons of laundry, organization, go to functions I would rather not go to, etc. But "Acts of Service" is not one of her love languages, as are most of things I gravitate too.
> 
> ...


It's awesome that you're putting this much effort into keeping your marriage great, and you two obviously love each other a lot. 

I think the missing piece of the puzzle for you is the psychological one. Have your read many books on psychology? That's what made the turning point for me - learning about the underlying reasons people do what they do, baggage people bring to a marriage, how their own fears or foibles keep them from doing what they know they should...

For example, I'm extremely conflict avoidant due to FOO. So I remain in a marriage where any other person would have put a stop to the crazy decades ago, but I simply can't steel myself to deal with the conflict.

There are probably things within both you AND your wife that are affecting y'all's ability to breach this issue. Learning about the psychology behind this stuff might be the way to do this. You already know about the HNHN ENs and stuff. So just take that a step further. For instance, if you want something from a person, how do you make that happen? You turn the situation around so that DOING what you want makes THEM happy. 

In a basic situation, that's easy. Kid wants more time on videogame, tell him how to earn more time. In your case, you choose to do acts of service, which you know she doesn't care about. That's like throwing money out your window. Why do it? Better yet, don't you think she KNOWS that you're doing that so you can have more/better sex? I know exactly when my H wants it because he takes his plate to the kitchen instead of leaving it to me. Because I told him once if I didn't have so damn much housework to do, I'd have TIME for sex.

She DOES want touch and quality time. What steps have you taken to ensure that her weeks are FULL of you giving her just that? 

That's part of the HNHN stuff - meeting HER needs (not what you want to meet) and removing lovebusters, so that she is at peace. 

But then there's the psychological stuff that's not being addressed. I've alluded a lot to caveman stuff, to women needing strong men and ignoring the needs of 'weak' men. Thus what some have said about YOU having the ability to change the dynamics. If you can't figure out how her brain is working, you can't make her want to please you. 

Mind, there's a lot to it; thousands of books out there on this stuff. But I learned stuff, even in the worthless ones, to round out a fairly good ability to understand why people are (not) doing things. 

So consider diving into this aspect of the relationship. What makes her tick? What was her FOO like? Was there someone who shamed her or guilted her? Does she have a stubborn streak because someone humiliated or used her once? Or did she develop a closed wall because of it? Did her mom make her feel sex was bad? On and on, there are so many aspects to her that are playing into why she won't do it. And then there's all the stuff you can learn about how sex declines in marriage naturally because the man is no longer pursuing the woman (primeval instincts) and she stops seeing him as her conqueror and lover, and just the facilitator. 

Instead of just pushing at the wall, figure out what the wall is made up of, and WORK with it so there's no reason to keep it there.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

SoSmartJuliet said:


> I know when my husband used to want sex (that aspect is barely there now, long story) he would do "nice" things "for" me *until* the sex. Then immediately, like a switch going off, he was distant again, as if I were the maid and part-time income-earner and full-time mother and that was it. I am SURE he had NO idea this was what he was doing. I'm 100% sure it was subconscious. He'd act shocked if I were to tell him I was aware of the above scenario...because he wasn't. It's just the way he operated, deep down. He was being nice to get sex.


I had a similar situation. The day he'd decide he was going to go for it, there was a spring in his step. I knew the instant he decided. He'd pick up trash or dishes. He'd take care of the dogs. He'd actually (gasp!) ask me about my day. 

Then he'd get it and inevitably, the next day, he'd get MAD at me about something. This went on for decades, until I called him out on it. He had no idea. And I was like "Why would I want to do it, if I know I'm gonna get treated like crap tomorrow? That's a negative reinforcement!"

He did manage to change that part of him. Once I told him it was going to result in less for him, lol.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Would you care to expand on this?

If by "gift" you mean that he should not expect/cannot earn them, and should be happy with however many he gets, why do you feel that way? There are so many things in marriage that are gifts in that sense. Why single out a BJ?

I feel saying something is a "gift" in that sense is devaluing it by deeming it less worthy than other acts. Plus, it tends to set up a power struggle dynamic when the other partner wants to level the field.

But I would like to understand the other side of the argument.




jld said:


> But it would not be happy if my husband felt entitled to blow jobs, instead of seeing them as the gift they are.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Finwe,

It wasn't my intention to offend, I only used the term in question because you sound so dissatisfied with your sex life, you seem to be giving up on it. And other than this single point, you said nothing else at all about why you are headed towards sexlessness. 

How often did she give/want to receive oral during the two time periods below:

1. During the period of time when sex was super awesome fantastic (before marriage)
2. After marriage but before your first child (and how long were you married before having your first child)

And what made the sex - super awesome fantastic - back then vs boring now?

-----------
FWIW - the guys your wife did this with - she probably loved them more than they loved her. She was 'chasing them'. 

Simplistic but likely true is that - when the fantastic sex stopped you were chasing her and she definitely knew she didn't need to try as hard. 





Finwe said:


> I don't think I am fixated. Our sex life followed the typical paths, super-awesome fantastic before marriage and after marriage it slowed down, (it had too!) Soon sex was the typical 2-4 times per month. This was your basic, simple, sex. This was pre-kids. Oral sex was a rarity even then. So rare in fact, that in our 20+ years of marriage, I am not sure if she performed oral on me more than one of her ex-boyfriends. The frequency of oral sex for me is counted by the year - not by months or weeks. Oral sex counts as just going down briefly - nothing to completion or crazy.
> 
> Why did I not say something sooner? I was young and stupid and thought I was being respectful. I thought hints would be enough. About 10 years ago I had a talk and recently had a few talks.
> 
> After the last talk - I am done. I will work on myself and she is not responsible for my happiness. I am going to push her very hard to get some help with anxiety.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> I'm not whining about it. I'm saying that many men already DO these things, with little to no result. And then when it comes out that they DO these things, they're often told to NOT do them, to get her attention.
> 
> Which is it? Not enough, or too much?


 @alexm I'm trying to resolve a couple of things before publishing my unified theory of male / female relationships and your wife might be a data point that my theory can't explain......

Does your wife do *anything* that she'd pretty much rather not do just because it would make you happy?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

SoSmartJuliet said:


> ESPECIALLY (again, not saying this is the case with you...just saying I see it all the time...seriously all the time, even if the wife works part-time, works from home, hell, sometimes if she works full-time) if it's "assumed" without words that the wife will be doing more of the dishes, more of the cleaning, more of the gross very non-romantic stuff that will over time build huge resentments on her part and as I said, make her feel anything but sexy.


Of course, if she's working the same hours as the husband, she shouldn't be expected to do more than he does.

Surely if the woman doesn't work it can be assumed that she'll do most of this stuff, right?

And if she works part-time, that she'll do more of this stuff?

These days I'd think that most SAHMs are that by choice, not because their husbands insist upon it.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

SoSmartJuliet said:


> In what way does she feel manipulated? That's pretty specific. I can see a woman saying she feels pressured but manipulated...well, that's kind of its own thing.


Trying to get someone to do something that they'd really rather not do is often seen as manipulation.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

MEM2020 said:


> Finwe,
> 
> It wasn't my intention to offend, I only used the term in question because you sound so dissatisfied with your sex life, you seem to be giving up on it. And other than this single point, you said nothing else at all about why you are headed towards sexlessness.
> 
> ...


No offense taken. Oral was always a rarity. What made it awesome was that there was no hang ups. In our first year of dating I bet she did it somewhere between 5-10 times, no asking or implying, she would just go for it. 

Before our first child - 0-2 times per year.

My sex life with my exes is very positive. I always had good feeling with them and myself. Strangely, I find my sex life before marriage healthier than it is today. Of course, I had less going on back then.

She on the other hand, greatly regrets her sex life before me. I told her she shouldn't because that is what makes her who she is. Her relationships were not as serious as mine. I dated two girls that were close to marriage. Her relationships consisted of a professional musician, professional snowboarder, a regular guy, exchange student, thug, and a drunk. At least this is what she has revealed to me. She did oral on these guys because she wanted attention and she did not want to get pregnant. The drunk-guy relationship was more a FWB and she only did oral on him. No PIV.

I mentioned abuse. I should clarify a bit more. While she was going down on one of her partners listed above, he held her head down and finished without permission. She still continued to date the guy a bit longer before she had enough. She broke up with him because he was concerned how she dressed, where she worked, and the car she drove rather than the relationship.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

DTO said:


> Would you care to expand on this?
> 
> If by "gift" you mean that he should not expect/cannot earn them, and should be happy with however many he gets, why do you feel that way? There are so many things in marriage that are gifts in that sense. Why single out a BJ?
> 
> ...


I think the expectation of a bj is fairly recent in history, and, as @lifeistooshort indicated, comes from porn. 

I am sure my mom and dad, as well as my husband's mom and dad, engaged strictly in PIV the whole of their 50+ year marriages.

Sex in marriage, at least as I understood it growing up Catholic, meant PIV. Its importance came from its function in reproduction.

So when people say "to hold" in the marital vows, that traditionally referred to PIV, not anything more exotic than that. It did not include enthusiasm, either.

BJs, HJs, enthusiasm, etc., are all extras that need to be inspired. I never heard in Catholic school that they were obligatory. Getting them requires study and effort on the part of whoever wants them, imo.

Not sure what you mean by power struggle and leveling the field?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> I think it is more about the topic @Bananapeel raised. Some of us men are not that attractive. Not that good in bed. Not that dominant. Kinda boring and uninspiring. So our women are not inspired to have sex with us. Whether we take them on dates or help with household chores is besides the point. They aren't hot for us.
> 
> The answer is not more dinners at Appleby's or doing loads of laundry. It is hitting the gym. More sylish clothes and haircut. Rock it at work. And use the extra income to spice up the leisure activities. Then, as you get her to have more sex, spice things up and don't let it become SOSO.


I think it's more about women who are takers (as opposed to being givers).

They only pay attention to what they want. 

When they wanted you to commit to them, sex being a priority was in their interest.

When you committed to them, sex was no longer a priority for them (if they're HD and the sex is good, it would still be a priority).

If you get more attractive, then sex may once again is in their interest. First, because sex with an attractive person seems more exciting than sex with an unattractive person and, now that you're attractive, you have more options so they need to put in a little more effort to keep you than otherwise.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

jld said:


> I think the expectation of a bj is fairly recent in history, and, as @lifeistooshort indicated, comes from porn.
> 
> I am sure my mom and dad, as well as my husband's mom and dad, engaged strictly in PIV the whole of their 50+ year marriages.
> 
> ...


Not so sure about that. Greeks and Romans were quite adventurous, not to mention Sodom and Gomorrah. I read the entire bible not to long ago and there are tons of crazy sex in it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Finwe said:


> Rather than the talk#2, it crossed my mind to "ravish" in every way, shape, and form. Make sure she is taken care of sexually taken care of. Then request kisses in certain spots, then request kisses closer and closer to the promise land.


I truly believe that's what most women want - to be caught up in a moment of pursuit and wild and crazy. But it takes a lot for most women to become that person, so it's often more practical for the man to start it.

Now, because you've had 'the talk' I wouldn't be doing that anytime soon. But I would start changing what your 'outings' look like. Start making things a little bit more intense. Turn the lights out. Maybe some stuff on tv. Let her 'escape' in the moment. Work up to that guiding stuff, but IMO it's too soon after you talked - she'll just see it all as more manipulation to get what YOU want.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Finwe said:


> Not so sure about that. Greeks and Romans were quite adventurous, not to mention Sodom and Gomorrah. I read the entire bible not to long ago and there are tons of crazy sex in it.


I am sure there has always been a variety of sexual activity going on. But it was probably a minority of people doing it in the past. Now it is more common among the majority, at least in the West.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Buddy, no offense, but you're not a woman and you don't know what it's like to be (1) shamed for sex and (2) feel like you're being coerced/cornered/controlled for it.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

turnera said:


> I truly believe that's what most women want - to be caught up in a moment of pursuit and wild and crazy. But it takes a lot for most women to become that person, so it's often more practical for the man to start it.
> 
> Now, because you've had 'the talk' I wouldn't be doing that anytime soon. But I would start changing what your 'outings' look like. Start making things a little bit more intense. Turn the lights out. Maybe some stuff on tv. Let her 'escape' in the moment. Work up to that guiding stuff, but IMO it's too soon after you talked - she'll just see it all as more manipulation to get what YOU want.


The first response to this thread was to forget about what women want, find out what your wife wants. 

I wish it as easy as escaping to a SPA, quality time, affection, etc. The reason I am posting here is because we have been to MC (a long time ago), we took a class, and I have read several books. I have done things to the best of my ability- but I am admittedly bad at a few of them. I have tried seduction, getting caught up in the moment, etc. None of it has worked. And not only has it not worked, it as annoyed her. 

After the last talk - I am pretty sure BJs will be off the table forever. Which is fine, because they never were on the table. The casualty is her. She feels bad. So now I have to safeguard resentment and work very hard to practice loving my wife. I can't hold this against her.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

turnera said:


> Buddy, no offense, but you're not a woman and you don't know what it's like to be (1) shamed for sex and (2) feel like you're being coerced/cornered/controlled for it.


She was so traumatized by it that she kept dating him afterwards until she broke up with him for an unrelated reason.

But she was traumatized enough so that she couldn't do for her committed husband what she'd done with no reciprocation for a drunk FWB (repeatedly).


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> So, the drunk guy gets blowjobs and she gets nothing in return. Yet, she can't bring herself to do it for you.
> 
> That's disturbing.
> 
> ...


It may qualify as rape:

_rape

[reyp]
noun

unlawful sexual intercourse or any other sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object, without the consent of the victim._


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> She was so traumatized by it that she kept dating him afterwards until she broke up with him for an unrelated reason.
> 
> But she was traumatized enough so that she couldn't do for her committed husband what she'd done with no reciprocation for a drunk FWB (repeatedly).


Buddy400 speaks to my darkness. These are the areas I go when the resentment hits.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

turnera said:


> I truly believe that's what most women want - to be caught up in a moment of pursuit and wild and crazy. But it takes a lot for most women to become that person, so it's often more practical for the man to start it.
> 
> Now, because you've had 'the talk' I wouldn't be doing that anytime soon. But I would start changing what your 'outings' look like. Start making things a little bit more intense. Turn the lights out. Maybe some stuff on tv. Let her 'escape' in the moment. Work up to that guiding stuff, but IMO it's too soon after you talked - she'll just see it all as more manipulation to get what YOU want.


That's right, you need to manipulate without her realizing she's being manipulated.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Finwe said:


> The first response to this thread was to forget about what women want, find out what your wife wants.
> 
> I wish it as easy as escaping to a SPA, quality time, affection, etc. The reason I am posting here is because we have been to MC (a long time ago), we took a class, and I have read several books. I have done things to the best of my ability- but I am admittedly bad at a few of them. I have tried seduction, getting caught up in the moment, etc. None of it has worked. And not only has it not worked, it as annoyed her.
> 
> After the last talk - I am pretty sure BJs will be off the table forever. Which is fine, because they never were on the table. The casualty is her. She feels bad. So now I have to safeguard resentment and work very hard to practice loving my wife. I can't hold this against her.


You will be cheating within a couple years with this attitude.

How many times did you try seduction? What did it look like? How long between when you decided to try it and when you gave up? 

You are 'bad at a few of them.' What does that mean? What did you try? What do you define as bad at it? What happened?

I'm not trying to dis you. I'm asking these things because I've seen SO VERY MANY men just like you, who have said they 'did it all and nothing worked.' And then gave up. But when you get down into the weeds, there are a dozen variations on the exact steps taken that could have been addressed or changed that had the potential to get what you want. But it DOES take real work.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Buddy400 said:


> She was so traumatized by it that she kept dating him afterwards until she broke up with him for an unrelated reason.
> 
> But she was traumatized enough so that she couldn't do for her committed husband what she'd done with no reciprocation for a drunk FWB (repeatedly).


As I said, you're not a woman and you have NO idea how strong the drive is for women to do all kinds of things they wouldn't choose to make a man happy enough to put a ring on that finger.

And before you say it, as so many men do, this IS NOT ENTRAPMENT because most women have NO IDEA that they are doing this. They just know there's a dance to play and this is their part in it. When I was younger, the 'sexual revolution' was just beginning and I was still caught up in the 'if you're not married by 22 you're unlovable' world. 

Look at the Latino world and the quinceaneras - basically Hispanic parents putting their young daughters on parade to entice the best potential mate. It's human nature. Goes back to caveman days - women fight to look as desirable as possible so that the men fight to see who wins the most desirable woman.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Finwe said:


> Buddy400 speaks to my darkness. These are the areas I go when the resentment hits.


Which is why I've been telling you to educate yourself on the psychology behind why women and men do what they do in relationships. Ignorance leads to ruined relationships.

There is a LOT worth saving in your marriage, and you have a wide range of directions you can go in besides just the 'oh well, this is all I get' attitude.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

anonmd said:


> That's right, you need to manipulate without her realizing she's being manipulated.


Oh trust me, women are WELL AWARE the men are taking them on a journey. But with the man taking the lead, the woman is free to play Scarlett O'Hara and it removes the shame aspect many women feel, the aspect that goes along with the still-prevalent double standard.

Now, if she were 23 or 24, with the current generation, I'd say yeah, she's just a selfish Millennial. But she's not; she's still a holdover from all the double standards and her FOO and baggage.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> Buddy, no offense, but you're not a woman and you don't know what it's like to be (1) shamed for sex and (2) feel like you're being coerced/cornered/controlled for it.


Shaming.

"Why won't you have sex with me, are you gay what is wrong with you?"

"If you're a man you'll do it with me."

"Go on she won't know, if you're a man you'll **** me."

"So what if she knows, you're a man aren't you?

"Are you a man?"

"Are you gay?"

"No man would turn me down!"

"What the **** is wrong with you?"

What some women said when I turned them down.

No offence.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Finwe said:


> I am willing to change. I have done similar things in the past with the Mrs. and sometimes we had a great time, and sometimes I ended reading a book. I am to blame for this too. Not all on her.
> 
> She has told me she wants to be desired, pursued, and connected. It just seems the harder I try the worse it gets. If I would scoop her up and take her to a couples spa - she would love it. I could have the special flowers she likes, write her a poem, buy the best seafood, - and I would be sure to make sweet love to her - but the odds of a BJ would be very low, and if I would imply or ask for one, I suspect the spa, flowers, poetry, - all would be thrown back at me as intricate plan to manipulate and pressure her into oral sex.
> 
> I have taken to hotels with pools, as she loves to swim, with a sitter for a day or two, and the connection and sex is good, but lacking in the BJ area, at least on my end. There have been times were I totally serviced her but no reciprocation. Which is disappointing.


Kinda reminds me of the "do more housework" request, the bar keeps getting raised higher, with no clear definition. I'd wager that you could not mention a BJ for another 2 years, and then when you do, it will be "Pressure".

I've read posts in this thread where it is opined that women view BJ's as a "throwaway" act for a random date. Yet it is often what their committed husband wants most.

Are you sure there is not any abuse in her past. This post may trigger some thought processes in her.
https://forgivenwife.com/unbearable-lessons/

** ok - I saw where she was abused with the drunk.

My advice is to do what I did with my wife who was abused. I had her read the article & then told her "I am NOT your POS ex bf, I have always treated you with respect & kindness. I will NOT be punished for the actions of some POS in your past. Seek counselling about what happened" 

You may want to read No More Mr. Nice Guy for yourself.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Personal said:


> Shaming.
> 
> "Why won't you have sex with me, are you gay what is wrong with you?"
> 
> ...


Uh right. Yeah, that's a real epidemic out there.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> I think the expectation of a bj is fairly recent in history, and, as @lifeistooshort indicated, comes from porn.


Oral sex figures in the kama sutra which is a pretty ancient text.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

wild jade said:


> Oral sex figures in the kama sutra which is a pretty ancient text.


Song of Songs in old testament talks of tasting your lovers fruit


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> Uh right. Yeah, that's a real epidemic out there.


Hypocrite


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

turnera said:


> Uh right. Yeah, that's a real epidemic out there.


Actually, it is much worse than you want to believe and Personal forgot the size shaming and the sexual endurance part as well. The difference is men are taught to compartmentalize sexaul assault, rape and shaming in an entirely different way than women.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> I think the expectation of a bj is fairly recent in history, and, as @lifeistooshort indicated, comes from porn.





wild jade said:


> Oral sex figures in the kama sutra which is a pretty ancient text.


On second thought, maybe you have a point. This seems to sum up the kama sutra point of view on oral sex:

The Auparishtaka is *practised only by unchaste and wanton women,* female attendants and serving maids, i.e., those who are not married to anybody, but who live by shampooing.

The Acharyas (i.e., ancient and venerable authors) are of opinion that this Auparishtaka is t*he work of a dog and not of a man*, because it is a low practice, and opposed to the orders of the Holy Writ, and because *the man himself suffers by bringing his lingam into contact with the mouths of eunuchs and women*.


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## SoSmartJuliet (May 25, 2017)

She


Buddy400 said:


> Of course, if she's working the same hours as the husband, she shouldn't be expected to do more than he does.
> 
> Surely if the woman doesn't work it can be assumed that she'll do most of this stuff, right?
> 
> ...


Whether or not it's assumed, have you ever actually been on the scutwork side of this equation? Where you're cleaning this person's pizz off the side of the bowl on your hands and knees and then she comes home from work with a groan to announce she's so tired from work but she'll be glad to let you get back to cleaning her laundry and doing her dirty dishes just as soon as you've serviced her? (Or generally not outright said. As you stated...it's assumed. I mean...SHE WORKED. So...you scrub. Oh, and perform. She worked hard, she earned it.)

If so, how incredibly sexy did it make you feel?

Even if this is all handled much more diplomatically than the above (as I said, a lot of it is the actions, not the words), even if the working outside the home spouse generously offers to "help" clean messes he himself made even though he works, it is a fact: cleaning a house all day long does not make am person feel sexy...1950s ecstasy-face Lysol and cookware ads notwithstanding. This lifestyle simply does not, for the average woman, create any flames to fan with hot-breathed desire.


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## NickTheChemist (Apr 26, 2017)

Finwe said:


> I have never been turned down for regular sex, but somehow, someway, oral sex for me never seems to happen. If I bluntly request it, she may do it for a bit
> 
> I want to know what is going on inside her head.


If you are never turned down for PIV sex, than you should stop complaining right now snd thank God for this woman, you lucky dog.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Buddy400 said:


> @alexm I'm trying to resolve a couple of things before publishing my unified theory of male / female relationships and your wife might be a data point that my theory can't explain......
> 
> Does your wife do *anything* that she'd pretty much rather not do just because it would make you happy?


Tough question. I'd say standalone BJ's are the only thing.

This is really the only thing I can think of, TBH. Overall I'm more thoughtful than she is, but it's not specific to me. She's also not demanding, so it balances out, I guess.

FWIW, there's almost always oral sex as foreplay (or after). I realize OP is talking about 'never', so I can't totally relate to him, but nonetheless.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

@turnera 

I absolutely hate to agree with this, but I had a ****ty situation when I was 17.

I was dating a girl at the time, and was out with a group of friends. At the end of the night (and after a few drinks), I had no choice but to crash at a buddies house. The buses had stopped running, and I was nowhere near home. One of the girls we were with that night had the same problem, so she went back to his house, too. He told us we could crash in his basement. I asked him if I could just sleep on his bedroom floor - he said no, I put up a bit of a fight, but he was adamant.

So I told the girl to take the couch, and I holed myself up in his laundry room and closed the door.

Door opens 5 minutes later, girl literally starts undoing my pants, not a word. Uh, nope, thanks, go back to your couch, not interested.

"Are you gay?" "No, I have a girlfriend, now get off me."

Verbatim: "If you don't **** me, I'm going to tell my boyfriend and your girlfriend that you did anyway."

I tried to talk her out of it, but no luck. She seemed extremely serious, so by my 17 year old logic and experience, I had no choice. By this time, the alcohol had worn off, so I knew what was happening, but I was so afraid I was going to be accused of raping her, or at least that she'd tell my girlfriend that I slept with her, or hit on her or something.

On another occasion, I started seeing this girl when I was 19 or so. Basically a rebound relationship for both of us, but we got along well. At the time, I was a solid 190lbs - not fat, but not exactly toned, either. I had been a fairly high-level athlete up until around this time, so I had the muscle mass, but had let myself go a bit by then, as the dream was over.

First time we sleep together, when it was over, she told me I'd have to lose some weight if I was going to keep dating her. That was blunt, and made me feel like crap.

Look - women get this **** ALL the time, no doubt about it. Even my meagre two bad experiences are a drop in the bucket for what most of you go through, or went through, on a regular basis, or still do, simply by being in public.

But we men DO get shamed, do get judged, and we do get date-raped - it happens more often than we'd like to admit, I think. For the rest of my life, I will remember the look in that girls eyes when she told me I had to **** her, or else. It's more than half my life ago, and I can picture it perfectly. The anger I still have at my 'friend' who wouldn't let me crash in his bedroom. The shame I still feel for falling for it. It sucks.

Not every man has experiences like this, no, but more do than you think, I'm willing to bet.



Personal said:


> Shaming.
> 
> "Why won't you have sex with me, are you gay what is wrong with you?"
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The shaming may be in different directions but its there for men as well. 

"you are like a spoiled child who complains because he didn't get dessert". (when I dared suggest that I'd like sex twice a week). 

Don't know and don't care which gender gets more complaints - but both do. 




turnera said:


> Buddy, no offense, but you're not a woman and you don't know what it's like to be (1) shamed for sex and (2) feel like you're being coerced/cornered/controlled for it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alexm said:


> @turnera
> 
> I absolutely hate to agree with this, but I had a ****ty situation when I was 17.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing this experience, Alex. Lying and manipulating is problematic in either sex. 

I am going to share your post with my two older boys. There is a lot to learn from there.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jld said:


> Thank you for sharing this experience, Alex. Lying and manipulating is problematic in either sex.
> 
> I am going to share your post with my two older boys. There is a lot to learn from there.


Wow, good for you @jld I'm sure they will be well prepared for the pitfalls on modern dating with such open discussions.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

SoSmartJuliet said:


> Okay, so...by taking control of the BJs, what is a non-rapey, assertive way?
> 
> I don't mean graphically, I'm not asking for a bunch of visuals here, I just am not sure of how I would feel about my husband "taking control of" our sex life (??) lest I do (double ??) and assertively assuring himself of blowies.
> 
> I feel like if either or both of you is/are thinking of this as which one of you will take control of the sex life, it's already combative and headed for the toilet. Nobody's going to win. Just my $.02.



Here's an analogy for you. Imagine I'm a boss at work and I'm used to having my secretary stop on the way in occasionally and pick up a coffee for me. All my past secretaries have done that so I'm used to it. I hire a new secretary that says, "hey, I don't bring in coffee for my boss because I find it demeaning since my past bosses told me I had to get them coffee." Well, there are two ways to handle it. One way is to sulk, fuss, whine, or make her feel guilty, and then just accept her answer that she is not going to bring me the coffee. The other way is to ask why she finds it demeaning and then confidently explain to her that all my other secretaries have done that, but I'm fine either way. Then tell her that it was really a special thing because usually they pick one up for themselves too, and we get to sit and chat informally, so she gets a temporary break from her normal work routine. Of course if I'm an awesome boss, she'll want to spend time taking a reprieve from her normal day with me and will eventually show up one day with coffee. She'll see how much I enjoy it and how she gets benefit from it too, and will like seeing me happy. Then coffee will start happening regularly. 

So to answer your question directly. The way I take control is I setup the environment where my partner wants to do those things for me. I also communicate confidently and directly. However, if I find a woman that is not going to meet my needs I don't pursue at LTR relationship with her. The OP should not have married or stayed married to his wife if she wasn't going to engage in a healthy and happy sex life, IF that is what he values (projecting the attitude early on that he's not afraid to leave a substandard relationship would have prevented most of his problems). The idea that his wife meets most of his needs is the attitude of a guy that isn't successful because it's the she's good enough attitude so I'll settle on her. Successful people that get what they want don't settle for good enough, instead they leave "good enough" behind while they pursue "greatness". I screen my women heavily early on to make sure they'll meet my needs, I am confident and assertive in communicating what I want, and I setup the environment so that women want to give me what I want. So in a non-rapey kind of way, I just prevent these problems from occurring and setup an environment where women don't tell me no. I make sure to meet her needs and take the responsibility of ensuring all the things are in place to have a good sex life. Then we build our sexual routine/habit in a healthy way.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

turnera said:


> Oh trust me, women are WELL AWARE the men are taking them on a journey. But with the man taking the lead, the woman is free to play Scarlett O'Hara and it removes the shame aspect many women feel, the aspect that goes along with the still-prevalent double standard.
> 
> Now, if she were 23 or 24, with the current generation, I'd say yeah, she's just a selfish Millennial. But she's not; she's still a holdover from all the double standards and her FOO and baggage.


Turnera, I've seen you use this term several times in this thread, but I have no idea what it means. What is FOO?


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

uhtred said:


> The shaming may be in different directions but its there for men as well.
> 
> "you are like a spoiled child who complains because he didn't get dessert". (*when I dared suggest that I'd like sex twice a week*).
> 
> Don't know and don't care which gender gets more complaints - but both do.


uhtred you've been around long enough to know it's in the delivery, not the message. How many threads have been started by men who want more but make the mistake of ASKING for more? Women are not attracted to weak men. That's not a dis, it's psychology. Look for the men on here who DO have satisfying relationships. Why? Because they make it clear to the wife that they will not STAY in a marriage in which his needs are not met. 

Women are drawn to strong men. If a man's willing to stay in a sexless marriage, well...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Fozzy said:


> Turnera, I've seen you use this term several times in this thread, but I have no idea what it means. What is FOO?


FOO = family of origin. Meaning, the millions of ways in which a person forms who he becomes through daily interactions, watching how people work with each other (or not) in their family, learning fear or shame or anger or conflict avoidance, seeing loving healthy parents and modeling that (or the opposite), being taught to shut up and take what you're given, things like that. Unless you're a psychopath who's born with an abnormal brain, you will become what you live growing up. For good or bad.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

alexm said:


> @turnera
> 
> I absolutely hate to agree with this, but I had a ****ty situation when I was 17.


alex, I have no doubt that many men have had such experiences, especially in the past 20 years, when women have been raised to enjoy sex and be vocal about it.

I'm talking about the grand scheme of things, society as a whole. I'm old enough that girls were shamed, even arrested, for showing their stomachs (bikinis). In my day, girls still disappeared for 9 months and came back and nobody asked why. In my day, if you weren't married by 21, you were unlovable. My mom was old enough to remember women her mom's age being considered ****s for showing their ankles! She got pregnant her last year of college, and still had to move across the country to have her baby so as not to shame her family. And God knows what it's like in the rest of the world.

Humans are patriarchal, have been since cavemen protected cavewomen, and the 40 years or so of 'enlightenment' we're in in which women can openly enjoy sex doesn't erase the imprinting of 100s of thousands of years in which women were shamed, coerced, and controlled, and literally at the mercy of men. Just like many black people instantly think about a cop down the road and ask themselves if they have to be on alert, women carry an instinctual self-protection. We may THINK we're evolved, but deep down, women still walk around knowing they have to be aware of these things. 

It's a different culture that men simply have never had to experience and are typically not even aware of. JMHO


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

turnera said:


> uhtred you've been around long enough to know it's in the delivery, not the message. How many threads have been started by men who want more but make the mistake of ASKING for more? Women are not attracted to weak men. That's not a dis, it's psychology. Look for the men on here who DO have satisfying relationships. Why? Because they make it clear to the wife that they will not STAY in a marriage in which his needs are not met.
> 
> Women are drawn to strong men. If a man's willing to stay in a sexless marriage, well...


My husband is happy, and he would not leave me. He would find a way to inspire me to do what he wanted, or accept to live without it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

turnera said:


> FOO = family of origin. Meaning, the millions of ways in which a person forms who he becomes through daily interactions, watching how people work with each other (or not) in their family, learning fear or shame or anger or conflict avoidance, seeing loving healthy parents and modeling that (or the opposite), being taught to shut up and take what you're given, things like that. Unless you're a psychopath who's born with an abnormal brain, you will become what you live growing up. For good or bad.


People also learn how they do *not* want to live or be from their families. 

My husband learned how he did *not* want to treat his wife from seeing how his dad treated his mom.

I learned what I would *not* tolerate from a man by watching how my dad treated my mom.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jld said:


> My husband is happy, and he would not leave me. He would find a way to inspire me to do what he wanted, or accept to live without it.


Agreed. But I'm losing count of the men who've come and been taught how to change THEIR steps and then said 'oh well, I'll just live in a sexless marriage.' 

I get it, change is hard. But if you don't change, why complain about what you're unhappy about?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jld said:


> People also learn how they do *not* want to live or be from their families.
> 
> My husband learned how he did *not* want to treat his wife from seeing how his dad treated his mom.
> 
> I learned what I would *not* tolerate from a man by watching how my dad treated my mom.


True, but far too many people never become enlightened enough to get that far. To change what comes naturally to them. To rewire the brain paths.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Bananapeel said:


> Here's an analogy for you. Imagine I'm a boss at work and I'm used to having my secretary stop on the way in occasionally and pick up a coffee for me. All my past secretaries have done that so I'm used to it. I hire a new secretary that says, "hey, I don't bring in coffee for my boss because I find it demeaning since my past bosses told me I had to get them coffee." Well, there are two ways to handle it. One way is to sulk, fuss, whine, or make her feel guilty, and then just accept her answer that she is not going to bring me the coffee. The other way is to ask why she finds it demeaning and then confidently explain to her that all my other secretaries have done that, but I'm fine either way. Then tell her that it was really a special thing because usually they pick one up for themselves too, and we get to sit and chat informally, so she gets a temporary break from her normal work routine. Of course if I'm an awesome boss, she'll want to spend time taking a reprieve from her normal day with me and will eventually show up one day with coffee. She'll see how much I enjoy it and how she gets benefit from it too, and will like seeing me happy. Then coffee will start happening regularly.
> 
> So to answer your question directly. The way I take control is I setup the environment where my partner wants to do those things for me. I also communicate confidently and directly. However, if I find a woman that is not going to meet my needs I don't pursue at LTR relationship with her. The OP should not have married or stayed married to his wife if she wasn't going to engage in a healthy and happy sex life, IF that is what he values (projecting the attitude early on that he's not afraid to leave a substandard relationship would have prevented most of his problems). The idea that his wife meets most of his needs is the attitude of a guy that isn't successful because it's the she's good enough attitude so I'll settle on her. Successful people that get what they want don't settle for good enough, instead they leave "good enough" behind while they pursue "greatness". I screen my women heavily early on to make sure they'll meet my needs, I am confident and assertive in communicating what I want, and I setup the environment so that women want to give me what I want. So in a non-rapey kind of way, I just prevent these problems from occurring and setup an environment where women don't tell me no. I make sure to meet her needs and take the responsibility of ensuring all the things are in place to have a good sex life. Then we build our sexual routine/habit in a healthy way.


I like the coffee analogy. In my wife's case, she is more of a Chief Operating Officer with a hectic schedule with lots of pressure. She would love to take a break and have coffee but it cannot be a priority, unless you want a failed business. 

I get the interview process for your potential romantic partners, sounds great. I was picky also, 20+ years ago. There were a couple of women I could have married, a few more wanted a more serious relationship, but they were not even close to my wife. 

But we change over the years. Ever see "She Having a Baby" with Kevin Bacon? I am the guy on the rocket ship into the wall. I love my crazy life. And, there are many, many, more things I value in our life together more than the occasional BJ.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Finwe said:


> I like the coffee analogy. In my wife's case, she is more of a Chief Operating Officer on with a hectic schedule with lots of pressure. She would love to take a break and have coffee but it cannot be a priority, unless you want a failed business.
> 
> That's where you come in as the man in the relationship. Find a way to relieve her hectic schedule and pressure, and do it because you recognize she's needs a break and to be appreciated as woman and not just a mom. And trust me, it won't have dire consequences.
> 
> ...


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

NickTheChemist said:


> If you are never turned down for PIV sex, than you should stop complaining right now snd thank God for this woman, you lucky dog.


Yes... I should. The big picture? I am very lucky.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I agreed with you (and still do, wholeheartedly). I was in no way saying my (or any other men's) experiences is the same, not even remotely. Trust me.

However, you insinuated to whomever you were talking to (I don't remember, sorry) that he had no idea what this sort of thing is like.

You know what? Most men don't - I fully agree. But some of us do. Not on a daily basis of course, but nonetheless.

I am a man, and I was sexually assaulted. I was woken up by a girl who was in the midst of undoing my pants. I was told that if I didn't do what she wanted, she'd tell people I did - or perhaps even worse. I didn't tell anybody what happened at the time, because nobody would believe me, or I'd have been laughed at if they did. "Dude, you had sex, what's the big deal?"

Some of us get it more than you know.





turnera said:


> alex, I have no doubt that many men have had such experiences, especially in the past 20 years, when women have been raised to enjoy sex and be vocal about it.
> 
> I'm talking about the grand scheme of things, society as a whole. I'm old enough that girls were shamed, even arrested, for showing their stomachs (bikinis). In my day, girls still disappeared for 9 months and came back and nobody asked why. In my day, if you weren't married by 21, you were unlovable. My mom was old enough to remember women her mom's age being considered ****s for showing their ankles! She got pregnant her last year of college, and still had to move across the country to have her baby so as not to shame her family. And God knows what it's like in the rest of the world.
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Bananapeel said:


> Here's an analogy for you. Imagine I'm a boss at work and I'm used to having my secretary stop on the way in occasionally and pick up a coffee for me. All my past secretaries have done that so I'm used to it. I hire a new secretary that says, "hey, I don't bring in coffee for my boss because I find it demeaning since my past bosses told me I had to get them coffee." Well, there are two ways to handle it. One way is to sulk, fuss, whine, or make her feel guilty, and then just accept her answer that she is not going to bring me the coffee. The other way is to ask why she finds it demeaning and then confidently explain to her that all my other secretaries have done that, but I'm fine either way. Then tell her that it was really a special thing because usually they pick one up for themselves too, and we get to sit and chat informally, so she gets a temporary break from her normal work routine. Of course if I'm an awesome boss, she'll want to spend time taking a reprieve from her normal day with me and will eventually show up one day with coffee. She'll see how much I enjoy it and how she gets benefit from it too, and will like seeing me happy. Then coffee will start happening regularly.
> 
> So to answer your question directly. The way I take control is I setup the environment where my partner wants to do those things for me. I also communicate confidently and directly. However, if I find a woman that is not going to meet my needs I don't pursue at LTR relationship with her. The OP should not have married or stayed married to his wife if she wasn't going to engage in a healthy and happy sex life, IF that is what he values (projecting the attitude early on that he's not afraid to leave a substandard relationship would have prevented most of his problems). The idea that his wife meets most of his needs is the attitude of a guy that isn't successful because it's the she's good enough attitude so I'll settle on her. Successful people that get what they want don't settle for good enough, instead they leave "good enough" behind while they pursue "greatness". I screen my women heavily early on to make sure they'll meet my needs, I am confident and assertive in communicating what I want, and I setup the environment so that women want to give me what I want. So in a non-rapey kind of way, I just prevent these problems from occurring and setup an environment where women don't tell me no. I make sure to meet her needs and take the responsibility of ensuring all the things are in place to have a good sex life. Then we build our sexual routine/habit in a healthy way.


If a woman is smart, she's doing this right back at you. It should not be one person taking control of the couple's sex life, it should be two people sharing that responsibility. Each has their own needs and wants. And the outcome is negotiated.


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## bullyisback (May 23, 2017)

Do like I do n tell her ur ur going to whether its at the beginning or end shooting all over u. But my wife is good to me she likes me finishing in her mouth so I win win

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> I get it, change is hard. But if you don't change, why complain about what you're unhappy about?


Because it feels so good. And it is so much easier than changing. And it is addictive. And it rewires your brain (just not in the way that would get you any sex). And you generate sympathy (at least at first - but when that runs out you can always find another internet forum to get your "fix"), which also feels good and is addictive but isn't helpful at resolving the problem. And complaining builds up frustration and resentment, which reduces love and desire for your wife, which is best minimized if you want to be able to tolerate living with but not having sex with your wife.

Shall I continue? :wink2:>


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

@EleGirl - I agree 100%.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It depends on the person. My wife does not want me to be more aggressive or dominant. She really doesn't. She does not see me as weak or useless. She doesn't lack respect for me. She loves me. 

She just doesn't want much sex with me or with anyone else. Its really that simple.

I can leave her or I can stay - my choice. What I will not do is in any way threaten her into sex - I won't tell her that she has to engage in certain sex acts with a certain frequency or I'll leave. If the sex isn't willing, I don't want it. 





turnera said:


> uhtred you've been around long enough to know it's in the delivery, not the message. How many threads have been started by men who want more but make the mistake of ASKING for more? Women are not attracted to weak men. That's not a dis, it's psychology. Look for the men on here who DO have satisfying relationships. Why? Because they make it clear to the wife that they will not STAY in a marriage in which his needs are not met.
> 
> Women are drawn to strong men. If a man's willing to stay in a sexless marriage, well...


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## NickTheChemist (Apr 26, 2017)

turnera said:


> Agreed. But I'm losing count of the men who've come and been taught how to change THEIR steps and then said 'oh well, I'll just live in a sexless marriage.'
> 
> I get it, change is hard. But if you don't change, why complain about what you're unhappy about?


*Skinny guy raises hand to acknowledge what you are saying*

I'm in a sexless (10-15 times a year) marriage right now with a great woman. I have been so good to her these past 9 years of marriage. I am reading no more mr nice guys and changing myself for the better, but I have made many of the nice guy mistakes--including marrying a needy and sexually unavailable woman. 

The lack of sex--especially at my age (31)--eats at a man. It is constantly in the back of my mind and it is so depressing--it's what I think about when I'm alone. It feels hopeless and I'm fighting off sad emotions daily and telling myself that she loves me even though she denies me over and over no matter how well I treat her or what I try to do to inspire her.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

NickTheChemist said:


> *Skinny guy raises hand to acknowledge what you are saying*
> 
> I'm in a sexless (10-15 times a year) marriage right now with a great woman. I have been so good to her these past 9 years of marriage. I am reading no more mr nice guys and changing myself for the better, but I have made many of the nice guy mistakes--including marrying a needy and sexually unavailable woman.
> 
> ...


Don't assume that the women here are like your wife. I'm not sure why you think this way. Maybe you could check out the *http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/350970-sex-starved-wife.html* thread. The fact is that about as many men chose to make their marriages sexless (or near sexless) as women do.


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## NickTheChemist (Apr 26, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Don't assume that the women here are like your wife. I'm not sure why you think this way. Maybe you could check out the *http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/350970-sex-starved-wife.html* thread. The fact is that about as many men chose to make their marriages sexless (or near sexless) as women do.


You are right. I'm sorry. 

I am hurting badly and saying what I wish my wife would hear and take to heart.

Men should not deny their wives physically either. The pain of rejection is real and crappy no matter what hardware you're sporting.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its a miserable situation. Despite what some people claim, there may be nothing you can do to fix it except leave. 





NickTheChemist said:


> *Skinny guy raises hand to acknowledge what you are saying*
> 
> I'm in a sexless (10-15 times a year) marriage right now with a great woman. I have been so good to her these past 9 years of marriage. I am reading no more mr nice guys and changing myself for the better, but I have made many of the nice guy mistakes--including marrying a needy and sexually unavailable woman.
> 
> The lack of sex--especially at my age (31)--eats at a man. It is constantly in the back of my mind and it is so depressing--it's what I think about when I'm alone. It feels hopeless and I'm fighting off sad emotions daily and telling myself that she loves me even though she denies me over and over no matter how well I treat her or what I try to do to inspire her.


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## bullyisback (May 23, 2017)

It is miserable. A person needs physical touch to feel wanted and attractive.. I make sure I hold my wife every night to give her that even if 2 weeks passes between sex. I still like her touching me. She loves that and I'm good at cuddling..in marriages sometime even if u don't want to u still need to for that other persons insecurities and break them

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk


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## Youngwife1000 (Mar 26, 2017)

Finwe said:


> This is one of our challenges. We have six children and the youngest is less than a year. We have moved twice in the past three years and my career has been profitable but stressful.




Hey, we have 6 kids as well and my husband has a stressful job. Our kids range from 11 months to 19. 
Just from my point of view, I love giving bjs and I know he loves them. For us we don't get much day time sexy fun so often it's later when our 2 smallies are in bed so roughly after 7.30. There's just no point in him asking me before hand. We try to grab a shower together when we can this always for me anyway is a great time to go down on him (maybe suggest to your wife a shower together). 
Other times if I know he's showered, it will definitely worked into our foreplay. So for me I guess, him being clean is a must and I don't mean just a sponge done. He also tell me when he's going to cum, so I'm prepared to take his load and not suffer any gagging, which is horrible for both. Maybe invest in flavoured lubes or chocolate sauce. 
Best of luck 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

NickTheChemist said:


> *Skinny guy raises hand to acknowledge what you are saying*
> 
> I'm in a sexless (10-15 times a year) marriage right now with a great woman. I have been so good to her these past 9 years of marriage. I am reading no more mr nice guys and changing myself for the better, but I have made many of the nice guy mistakes--including marrying a needy and sexually unavailable woman.
> 
> The lack of sex--especially at my age (31)--eats at a man. It is constantly in the back of my mind and it is so depressing--it's what I think about when I'm alone. It feels hopeless and I'm fighting off sad emotions daily and telling myself that she loves me even though she denies me over and over no matter how well I treat her or what I try to do to inspire her.


So what kinds of changes, specifically, are you making? Are you no longer jumping to do errands for her? Are you telling her to do things for YOU? Are you saying no when she wants to go to her sister's for the fourth time this month? Are you going out to hang out with your guy friends at least a couple times a month?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Youngwife1000 said:


> H We try to grab a shower together when we can this always for me anyway is a great time to go down on him (maybe suggest to your wife a shower together).
> Other times if I know he's showered, it will definitely worked into our foreplay. So for me I guess, him being clean is a must and I don't mean just a sponge done. He also tell me when he's going to cum, so I'm prepared to take his load and not suffer any gagging, which is horrible for both. Maybe invest in flavoured lubes or chocolate sauce.


I was going to suggest this - the shower is the only way I can do it without being totally repulsed, I suppose because the running water changes things. Plus that way there's no smell.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

turnera said:


> I was going to suggest this - the shower is the only way I can do it without being totally repulsed, I suppose because the running water changes things. Plus that way there's no smell.


LOL, your husband needs to change his underwear more frequently...or possibly a vigorous shake before he tucks himself back in after he's pee'd. A penis, being outside of the body, would only smell if it was unclean...or put away damp.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

IDK, he showers every morning.


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## Ole Hickory (May 28, 2017)

OP: you said she was devoutly Christian and you were "open-minded". Many women raised in the church have heard over and over "The man is the spiritual leader of the household". Could she be waiting for you to step up and lead in that area?
Also, this quote from Madame de Stael: "The desire of the man is for the woman; the desire of the woman is for the desire of the man." Nothing kills desire like criticism. Being the bright lad that I am, it only took me 20 years to understand this!


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## NickTheChemist (Apr 26, 2017)

turnera said:


> So what kinds of changes, specifically, are you making? Are you no longer jumping to do errands for her? Are you telling her to do things for YOU? Are you saying no when she wants to go to her sister's for the fourth time this month? Are you going out to hang out with your guy friends at least a couple times a month?


Caveat: I am about 1/2 way through the book and reading daily.

1). Identifying my own behavioral patterns that are unproductive. Admitting the many mistakes that I have made and accepting imperfect myself and my own humanity. Taking steps to admit and. Onfrint my own toxic shame. Trying to identify the destruction to my marriage and relationships caused by my nice guy facade.


2) I no longer get extreme anxiety whenever she's mad/upset and fall all over myself trying to *fix* the problem and make her *happy*. This has been very liberating. If she's upset-she's upset. If she's being a jerk towards me than I leave the room and discuss later (in private) that I will not tollerate disrespectful or abusive behavior. Also using active listining all of the time, which helps to get out ahead of potential problems due to miscommunication. 

3) Let my wife know what I am doing and why.

4) decided that I will be happy whether or not my wife was happy

5) learn(ing) to respect and take care of myself.

6) Be a man, even if my strong actions will upset my wife (this does not at all mean being hurtful)

I am already seeing positive changes and her respect for me, encouragement snd appreciation seem to be growing, but there is a long, long way to go. Sex life still sucks, but she is breastfeeding for another 9 months and vasectomy is schedualed soon, so hopefully there will be great improvement there in the future with no fear of unplanned pregnancy and with her return to regular hormonal rhythm.

I'm trying to be patient with the sex because she is worn out all of the time now being a home maker and caring for our 3 young children and has even lower desire due to breastfeeding hormones/lack of sleep. Still, our sex life has sucked since the Bonney moon. The sex is amazing for both of us, but very early takes place. I was a vergin before her and waited till marriage. I've always felt like I'm missing out on sex snd that is a horrible thing to have in your mind. I won't cheat or look at porn. I have this one very important need that only my wife can meet and I am almost always left wanting. It's so depressing. 

I pour my life into my children and spend some time with the guys--working on increasing that.

Most importantly I have stopped trying to change my wife. She is who she is snd I love her. I call out when she treats me poorly, which is becoming more rare. And I show my love and cherish her without being a doormat. 

Any advice is welcome. I am flawed and often blind to my own mistakes and shortcomings.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Great progress. Two books you should read after NMMNG. They're both very easy reads, won't take long to get through them. One is Healing The Shame That Binds You - it's about toxic shame. When I finally read that after decades of misery, it was like finding the lighthouse I'd been searching for but never knew it.

The other is Hold On To Your N.U.T.s, which basically tells you to take care of your wife and family BUT make sure that you include time for you and your guy friends, that that (being a guy, hanging out with guys) IS how you stay a good husband and father.

As for standing up to your wife, if she tells you to do something, first ask yourself if you'd be doing it if you weren't married. If no, then ask yourself why you should be doing it now. Does it better the marriage or does it just make her happy?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

jld said:


> BJs, HJs, enthusiasm, etc., are all extras that need to be inspired. I never heard in Catholic school that they were obligatory. Getting them requires study and effort on the part of whoever wants them, imo.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by power struggle and leveling the field?


I am referring to the dynamic that can take hold when one is told that something is "extra", as in your quote.

I firmly believe each partner's wants and needs are equal, sexual or otherwise. It is up to my partner to take them or leave them, not pass judgment on them (and vice versa). And, in a relationship, we should want to meet those needs. Being told I need to inspire someone makes me think two things.

The first is that my wants and needs are not as important as hers. Why should I have to inspire her for enthusiastic intimacy but she does not have to inspire me to do whatever it is on which I am neutral but really floats her boat? When do I get to matter first, and if I don't then what does that say about my relationship?

The second is I am being held accountable for a response I cannot ensure from any particular person. Telling me I need to inspire someone implies I can ensure that response (or at least make it likely). But we'd agree someone can do everything and still not get it (and often, especially with someone who is not inherently into such things).

I'm not saying I won't put forth effort. Relationships always require effort and, beyond that, I want anyone I am intimate with to feel respected and comfortable around me, my home, etc. But I won't put in extra effort just to get decent sex, for the reasons noted above. And because it simply does not work.

The best case scenario is to be with someone who is attracted to you and likes providing that pleasure; then you just have to be a generally good relationship partner and keep the attraction going. Jumping through hoops is not necessary. I have found it produces the opposite effect - a sense of comfort and that the sex is not a big deal.

I went through this in my failed marriage and since then. They were issues of sexual disinterest and making it a power issue (saying I should make her happy regardless or it is an extra that needs to be earned), In either case, inspiring does not work. What does work is carrying myself as an equal who matters as much as she does. If values you enough to want you around, you at least have a shot at getting what you want. If not, then you probably weren't going to get it anyways (or at least not enough to make the effort worthwhile).

What I did then (and will continue to do) is to make it known that (1) the relationship is not worth an investment of time and effort if there is not a baseline level of sexual chemistry, and (2) I won't let my fulfillment be some sort of reward to be doled out when (and if) she feels like doing so. When you take up space and act like you matter, then other's treat you like you matter. Sex and relationships is not much different.


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## lisacolorado (May 2, 2017)

Finwe said:


> Why would you rarely perform oral sex on your husband when you know he loves it?


Because it's not fun


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

lisacolorado said:


> Because it's not fun


Anything my wife responds positively to or enjoys automatically becomes fun


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

DTO said:


> I am referring to the dynamic that can take hold when one is told that something is "extra", as in your quote.
> 
> I firmly believe each partner's wants and needs are equal, sexual or otherwise. It is up to my partner to take them or leave them, not pass judgment on them (and vice versa). And, in a relationship, we should want to meet those needs. Being told I need to inspire someone makes me think two things.
> 
> The first is that my wants and needs are not as important as hers. Why should I have to inspire her for enthusiastic intimacy but she does not have to inspire me to do whatever it is on which I am neutral but really floats her boat? When do I get to matter first, and if I don't then what does that say about my relationship?


Because you're talking about SEX, not buttering somebody's toast. Sex is an intimate act that, biologically, for women, requires substantial emotional investment...and if the emotional investment is not there, can venture dangerously close to several unfathomable relationships, such as, yes, even rape. Men have been convicted of raping their own wives. Just because you're married it doesn't mean you have a God-given right to access her body.

Does it suck that men HAVE to consider the emotional aspect? I supposed you could say so. But it is what it is. Men and women ARE NOT THE SAME. Women need to know they are not just a vessel for a man's d*ck to be willing or enthusiastic to have sex.

If you're not willing to invest in the emotional aspect of your wife's happiness, stay single and hire a hooker.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

turnera said:


> Because you're talking about SEX, not buttering somebody's toast. Sex is an intimate act that, biologically, for women, requires substantial emotional investment...and if the emotional investment is not there, can venture dangerously close to several unfathomable relationships, such as, yes, even rape. Men have been convicted of raping their own wives. Just because you're married it doesn't mean you have a God-given right to access her body.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




WOOT!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NickTheChemist (Apr 26, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Its a miserable situation. Despite what some people claim, there may be nothing you can do to fix it except leave.


I won't leave or cheat. I took a vow and I love her. Most everything is great except for the sex frequency. Even if things were bad, we would make it work for the kiddos. My daughters and son having security and stability is far more important than my need to feel loved and accepted in a way that can only be through sex. This is the bed that I have made for myself and must sleep in. Now I'm trying to change the sheets(by changing/accepting myself)--not trash the bed.


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## NickTheChemist (Apr 26, 2017)

turnera said:


> Great progress. Two books you should read after NMMNG. They're both very easy reads, won't take long to get through them. One is Healing The Shame That Binds You - it's about toxic shame. When I finally read that after decades of misery, it was like finding the lighthouse I'd been searching for but never knew it.
> 
> The other is Hold On To Your N.U.T.s, which basically tells you to take care of your wife and family BUT make sure that you include time for you and your guy friends, that that (being a guy, hanging out with guys) IS how you stay a good husband and father.
> 
> As for standing up to your wife, if she tells you to do something, first ask yourself if you'd be doing it if you weren't married. If no, then ask yourself why you should be doing it now. Does it better the marriage or does it just make her happy?


Thank you so very much. I value and appreciate your input. I have saved the names of those books and will read them next


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

turnera said:


> Because you're talking about SEX, not buttering somebody's toast. Sex is an intimate act that, biologically, for women, requires substantial emotional investment...and if the emotional investment is not there, can venture dangerously close to several unfathomable relationships, such as, yes, even rape. Men have been convicted of raping their own wives. Just because you're married it doesn't mean you have a God-given right to access her body.
> 
> Does it suck that men HAVE to consider the emotional aspect? I supposed you could say so. But it is what it is. Men and women ARE NOT THE SAME. Women need to know they are not just a vessel for a man's d*ck to be willing or enthusiastic to have sex.
> 
> If you're not willing to invest in the emotional aspect of your wife's happiness, stay single and hire a hooker.


Wow, force and rape? You are way off base - laughably so.

I am currently divorced and dating a wonderful young lady. But since you brought my ex wife into this, you need to know that she is the type of woman that gives women a bad name. If you think it's acceptable for a lady to lie about her attraction to a guy in order to keep him in a relationship, then get offended when he calls her out, then we'll never agree on this issue.

Just to be clear, I enjoy getting emotionally close my romantic partners and building that connection. And I invest a great deal of effort in taking the lead and proving myself to a lady. But, in dating before and (especially after) marriage I found that when a lady is willing to be adventurous, I don't have to jump through hoops. I just have to be myself and have a bit of patience, and it falls into place pretty quickly. It is not hard to start a virtuous cycle of reciprocal giving and connection-building.

Also, I don't force anybody to do anything. Any lady is free to tell me "hey, this is moving a little fast, lets slow it down" or "sorry, this isn't for me". I can gladly accept that and move on from there. What surprised me, though, is when I tell them it's not working out and we need to do something different, they get all offended for pointing out the obvious, like I owe them something.

What I don't accept is a double-standard where I need to attend to a lady's needs at a consistently high level over an extended period of time while whether my needs are met or not depends on her fancy. I value myself and any lady I am with as equals and I expect the same from her. Expecting me to meet her needs indefinitely while ignoring my own means she does not see us as equals - something which is a deal-breaker for me.

The times this became an issue, I did not just pull the plug on the relationship. I instead offered to work towards resolving whatever obstacles existed, or suggested that if she felt the relationship was moving too fast we could both pull back. Each time the ladies became offended and not a single one offered a solution towards getting us to a place where we both felt appreciated. Each time, nothing got better and you could not even get these ladies to agree that bad sex was something I should not have to tolerate.

I have had women try to emotionally blackmail me, telling me that having any sex with her obligates me to her, and that complaining about bad sex in a relationship is inherently abusive. Laughable, and I now give a wide berth to ladies that show signs of being selfish or high maintenance.

So, my point is that I am more than willing to meet a lady's emotional needs, but only in the context of a true partnership where my wants and needs matter as much as hers. IMO, ladies that tell guys the following have no intention of ranking him equal with herself:
* her body is more important than anything I bring to the relationship, or
* that sex / a particular sex act is a gift and I should be happy for whatever I get, or
* that I should be unfailingly attentive to her needs even when she does not reciprocate, or
* that I need to constantly prove my worth to her (but she does not have to do that for me)

I don't doubt that it takes a substantial investment for a lady to have sex. But pursuing, proving oneself, and whatever else the guy needs to do also takes a substantial investment. There is only so much of me to go around, and if someone tells me that I need to keep putting forth effort but she does not have to, I'm going to feel used. 

Moreover, I've learned through experience that ladies decide fairly early on whether sex is in the cards. Either the sex will flow fairly freely, or a good lady will be upfront and tell you you're not her type and that you should move on. Women who hold sex out as a carrot for you to chase generally are trying to get as much as they can from you while giving as little back as they can, and I simply refuse to play along. That does not mean I force anybody to do anything, but I simply recognize that there are lots of women who will let you know where you stand up front so you can make an informed decision.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

DTO said:


> I am referring to the dynamic that can take hold when one is told that something is "extra", as in your quote.
> 
> I firmly believe each partner's wants and needs are equal, sexual or otherwise. It is up to my partner to take them or leave them, not pass judgment on them (and vice versa). And, in a relationship, we should want to meet those needs. Being told I need to inspire someone makes me think two things.
> 
> ...


The way I see it, DTO, whoever wants something in a relationship, whether it is the male or the female, is going to have to inspire it. 

It they cannot inspire it, and it is still worth it to them to stay in the relationship without it, then they have to learn/accept to live with however things are.

If they cannot inspire it, and the relationship is not worthwhile to them without it, then it is time to move on.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NickTheChemist said:


> I won't leave or cheat. I took a vow and I love her. Most everything is great except for the sex frequency. Even if things were bad, we would make it work for the kiddos. *My daughters and son having security and stability is far more important than my need to feel loved and accepted in a way that can only be through sex.* This is the bed that I have made for myself and must sleep in. Now I'm trying to change the sheets(by changing/accepting myself)--not trash the bed.


I think the bolded shows a lot of maturity, Nick. I respect that.


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