# Need advice today on language



## maybeobvious (Sep 11, 2015)

I don't have time now to post my complete story but here's the short version:

Found out in late 2007 that my W had been having A for three years with someone known to me. I confronted OM and W. A ended. Some details are known to me but many are not.

Approximately 2 years before that A, W had a ONS during a girls trip to Vegas and subsequent EA with same OM, though my wife denies that it was anything more than "talk" and that nothing happened in Vegas.

I have not sought D because I didn't want to put my kids through it; because my parents divorced when I was very young and I vowed to myself that I would not do that to my kids; because a D would have serious adverse financial consequences; and because I would feel like a failure if I gave up on my M.

The last ~8 years have been up and down. Pretty good on the surface but with unresolved issues beneath.

So, what brings me here now is that a week ago W casually mentioned that she is going on a girls weekend to Atlantic City with the same people that were with her in Vegas, one of whom is also her best friend who was aware of my Ws 3-year A (and enabled in my opinion).

My W's announcement instantly took the wind out of my sails. I wasn't angry but it was a major trigger and immediately took me on an unwanted trip down Memory Lane. I stopped speaking with my W (and she, in turn, with me) and have lost all interest in thinking about our future together. After a couple of days I told her what effect her comments had had on me. She had no response. Since then our talk has consisted of normal household chit-chat, kid stuff etc.

My question is, how after all these years can I engage my W - a champion non-talker - in a discussion about things that I need in order to move on? Making matters worse, the main issue is sex. Basically I need to know why she did things with OM that she won't do with me, why she claims to be "not really into sex" but managed to sneak away from our family and drive an hour away to have sex with OM, why she told a friend that if I knew the things she did with OM that I would never touch her again - yet tells me she can't remember what those things are, why she looked at OM (out of shape) with a lustful eye but doesn't even glance at me when I get out of the shower. And so on.

I feel like I should have kicked her out in 2007 and made her demonstrate that she was truly remorseful but I didn't. I would like to think that D is not my only option but I don't know if I can hang in there for the duration feeling like my W gave the best of herself sexually to other people and has nothing left for me.

Any thoughts on how to bring this up after 8 years without my W feeling like I'm living in the past? We have a long history of me talking and her not responding so I would love to get my point across as quickly as possible. Something like:

I know you think that everything is fine but it's not. I don't want to continue living with someone who "just isn't into" me. I'm pissed at myself that I've settled for that for the last 8 years and I'm not doing it any longer.

Thoughts?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I've been living in a limbo with a wife who wouldn't respect me enough to offer honesty. I won't live that way any longer.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

It sounds like you rugged sweep this yourself, you never did the right things in the first place to address the situation and you basically stayed in the marriage for the sake of the kids and now after all these years, when she mentions that she is going on a trip you want to address the past. So now you want to take a stand...so you want to go from beta to alpha over night...my fear is that you will not be willing to draw the line in the sand and stick with it...i would tell her go your trip and in the mean time you will go to the lawyer and file the papers....are you willing to do that?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Xenote said:


> It sounds like you rugged sweep this yourself, you never did the right things in the first place to address the situation and you basically stayed in the marriage for the sake of the kids and now after all these years, when she mentions that she is going on a trip you want to address the past. So now you want to take a stand...so you want to go from beta to alpha over night...my fear is that you will not be willing to draw the line in the sand and stick with it...i would tell her go your trip and in the mean time you will go to the lawyer and file the papers....are you willing to do that?


Your wife is a serial cheater who does not respect you. Before you can do anything about her you need to figure out why you have put up with this for YEARS and imposed no consequences on her. BTW are you sure she has not been cheating for the last 8 years? Good luck.


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## 5Creed (May 29, 2011)

You two have many unresolved hurts and issues in your marriage. My STBX and I were experts at this-by "this" I mean rug sweeping and not dealing with things as they came. We buried them and one day everything just exploded. So when I read your post, it sounded familiar. One day and soon; you will have to face all of this with or without her. We just can't get away from doing it; although the other way is so comfortable at the time.

Absolutely give her the bottom line that she is not to go on a trip with girlfriends who most likely supported her cheating on you! Then it is up to you to decide what to do from here. I am sorry you are going through this. Face the issues head on. Believe me when I say it is the only way you will start healing.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

maybeobvious said:


> I feel like I should have kicked her out in 2007 and *made her demonstrate that she was truly remorseful *but I didn't.


Yes, you should have. 

It's going to be tougher now, but it's not too late to take back control of your marriage. That doesn't necessarily mean divorce is inevitable, but you can't take that off the table. Your mind set has to be that's going to be your wife's decision - based on her willingness to accept the consequences of re-set boundaries, demonstrating remorse, sexual openness and being willing to tell you everything about her A.

First, you should absolutely not accept that GNO trip with her toxic friends - or GNO's period for that matter. You tell her you can't control what she does but you can control what you will accept from a wife that has cheated on you. Marital boundaries that may have once been accepted by you have changed because of what she did.

The bottom line is that you have to be willing to start the divorce process if she doesn't turn around. If you're not, nothing will change. You will remain in a false R limbo and she will be more likely to cheat on you again.

Sorry you're here.


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## warshaw (Jul 31, 2015)

maybeobvious said:


> The last ~8 years have been up and down. Pretty good on the surface but with unresolved issues beneath.


You got a whole boatload of unresolved issues, more than most.

Your wife won't talk to you, she continues to lie to you about what happened, she doesn't show remorse, there's no sex, you've already acknowledged that you're only together for the kids and finances.. she's not going to tell you anything new and she doesn't respect your wishes enough to care about the ramifications of her trip, in fact given the history there's a good chance she's planning to cheat on you again if the opportunity arises.

You've gone through the motions of acknowledging that your marriage is essentially over, and you're together only for kids, finances, etc.

But you haven't yet accepted it. If you did you wouldn't waste your time and effort trying to figure out how to talk to your wife- because deep down you know it's a waste of time and effort. She's just not there for you anymore.


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## Devastated an lost (Oct 29, 2014)

maybeobvious,

First of all, I'm sorry you're here. It sounds like she's checked out of the marriage I think what you posted about what you would like to say is what you need to tell her. If she wants to save her M this will let her know, Now's the time to start. If I were in her place & my H said that to me I would cancel the trip & work on things. Her response will tell you how important you & her M are to her. good luck.


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## maybeobvious (Sep 11, 2015)

It's not the trip per se that is the problem. When she said that she was planning this trip she had a smile on her face and every expectation that I would be fine with it. She has taken other trips since 2007 that haven't evoked the feelings in me that this one has. Maybe the reason for that is lately she has been saying how happy she is and how thankful that we have our **** figured out, etc. Meanwhile, I still can't get past how sexual she was with OM and how she isn't with me. So with her happy talk as background, when she mentioned the trip it just dredged up all those memories and resulted in instant apathy - not angry at her but completely apathetic about our relationship.

To your question about beta to alpha overnight, that's BS but I know you're trying to help. If I knew that I wanted a divorce I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger on that. Problem is that I don't want that - yet - and would rather try to improve how I get my point across to her. Is divorce the only consequence that can be used in this situation? In other words, that's the nuclear option; can we fight with small arms first before resorting to that?


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

Your big mistake was when you found out about the affair, you should have swung a big heavy hammer down and let her earn her way back in the marriage. You chose to look the other way without any consequences on her part and now, she feels that you'll accept anything that she throws at you.

Honestly your a dollar short and a day late but you still can let her know that this time isn't going to fly especially with the people she's going with and their lack of character. Let her know that it isn't happening and if she blows you off and says she's going and it doesn't matter how it effects you, then you know where you stand and you now have the choice to continue to be her door mat or regaining your backbone and giving her her walking papers.

Basically she has no respect for you or your kids so if the marriage fails, it's on her not you. Find a good lawyer and have her served. Maybe she'll finally understand that she pushed too far but if she asks for another chance to work on the marriage, then you better have some rules for her to follow and don't let her squirm out of it or you'll once again be the door mat.

Truth be told, I would have thrown her out as soon as I found out about the affair.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

maybeobvious said:


> Is divorce the only consequence that can be used in this situation?


Yes.

Otherwise you're taking a knife to a gun fight. She has to know you are dead serious; and you have to "be" dead serious. That doesn't mean you have to approach her aggressively. You should speak calmly and confidently. And, there's nothing wrong with telling her that you want to save the marriage and that you still love her - ahead of what you're expectations are.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

May,

your nuclear option went off the table right from the start, so all you had to work with was small armament discussions but again here is where you might have failed 

tell me if you did any of this?
1. exposure...to the OMW, to the family, to others 
2. heavy lifting on the part of your wife
3. therapy
4. open communications 
5. transparency 

if you failed in doing any of this....and you took the nuclear option off the table (aka Divorce) then you are a doormat.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

maybeobvious said:


> I don't have time now to post my complete story but here's the short version:
> 
> Found out in late 2007 that my W had been having A for three years with someone known to me. I confronted OM and W. A ended. Some details are known to me but many are not.
> 
> ...


Divorce.

Also, how old are the two of you? How long have you been married?

How old are your children?


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## EVG39 (Jun 4, 2015)

I think your last paragraph is exactly the words you need to say. Tell her what your boundaries are and why (and you absolutely have more than ample reasons to not put with any more GNO's like she is planning). And if she violates that boundary impose consequences. The consequences are the end of the marriage. It's her choice.
I know, easier said than done but you are behind the eight ball now as others have pointed out. You've talked, its done no good. Because she doesn't think you will act.
Which is precisely why you must act. Decisively.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

The time for decisive action was 8 years ago.

OP, your wife did things for OM that she's never done for you or hasn't done for you since because -- for whatever reason(s) -- you're just not doing it for her anymore. And make no mistake... she's "into sex". _She's just not into sex w/ *YOU*._ It really is just as simple as that.

Additionally, given your description of your wife's behavior, I'm not reading anything even remotely resembling remorse from her for her behavior.

How did you find out about her affair? How certain are you that she's not still seeing OM?

Do you have access to her e-mail and social media accounts, personal electronics (computer, laptop, tablet, cell phone), etc?

I ask these questions only because getting some evidence that she's still engaged in an affair w/ OM (or whoever) might help you in terms of divorce.

And I say that because this marriage is done. It's time to pull the plug.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

I agree with the others here that have said It sounds like there was to much Rug sweeping back in 2007.

You say what bothers you most is she did thing sexually with OM that she does not do with you, This is understandable.

now that it is 2015 it is going to be hard to "un sweep" from the rug but not impossible.

Do you even know all the sexual details with OM?
Do you really want to know them? Some betrayed spouses need/want to know all the details, Just be carful here.

you are going to have to talk to your wife about this it may take a lot of prodding to get her to open up be patient be calm. if you start yelling she will probably shut down.


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## maybeobvious (Sep 11, 2015)

I spoke with my W a little while ago. Tried to keep it short. Basically said that I don't want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me, that I have tried to deal with this over the last 8 years but have finally accepted that I can't tolerate it and won't settle for it. She got defensive pretty quickly and played the "it's always about sex with you" card. I cut her off and called BS, that it was me feeling like she is hear because she has to be not that she wants to be that is the problem.
I was explicit about the things I know from her A that continue to haunt me and she seemed a little surprised - maybe she had forgotten that I knew these things.
After a few minutes of silence I started to leave the room and she stopped me and said "so what doe this mean?" I said it meant exactly what I said it meant, that I've proven to myself that I can't get over it without her help and that the ball is in her court. She didn't say anything and I left the room.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

She has lost romantic interest in you and obviously does not respect you.
She does not want to blow up her life either, apparently she is happy catching a little strange on the side when she can.
This is the life she has settled into (cake eater, serial cheater).

Your threat to blow it up garnered a response, but will not produce remorse.

You will get enough concessions from her to keep things stable (until she feels its no longer worth it, or meets someone she wants to be with).

Is that the kind of a relationship you want, a fear based "i gotcha" type or a willing partner who is fully into you and has no interest in cheating on you?

She may not have the maturity or character to ever be truly remorseful. You going to live like that? (Rhetorical, I think you are.)

You have enabled this whole scenario by rug sweeping.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

She treats you like shyt because she is not a remorseful cheater and you allow her to treat you like shyt.

She isn't a good woman and she is showing you exactly how a bad woman behaves.

She is obviously not that interested in self improvement enough to have changed into a better person and you are somewhat of a doormat by accepting her trashy attitude towards you.

If the woman's body hasn't become your adventurous amusement park and she isn't worshipping at the alter of your unit, then you should have kicked her treacherous ass to the curb.

She thinks it is funny to give you the crumbs and leftovers of another man's dinner and brag about what a slvt she was for her AP to a friend but keep you in the dark about it.

You obviously need details and you need more sexual attention from her including the level of sexuality that she gave to others at the very least.

You have shown through your actions that you are willing to eat what another man left on the floor.

I think you are the one that needs to fundamentally change if you want more from this woman.

She doesn't seem capable of changing herself.

Your passivity about her taking any trips with girlfriends is part of your problem.

That she even had the nerve to think hanging out in Vegas with the same stupid friends that she fvcked the other guy around and the one that knew about her fvcking another guy for three years speaks volumes about how unresolved this situation is with your serially cheating wife.

What books did you read or what counseling did you receive to repair the damage from your wife's affairs?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrtruth (Aug 20, 2015)

Wow I would have divorced her so fast 7 years ago. When she said it's all about sex to you say yeah just like it was all about sex with the om when you did stuff to him you wouldn't do with me.....sorry I want a wife that wants me and not the om.


Then tell her that you are divorcing her. It takes a long time to get divorced you can stop it any time that will give her time to win you back and prove she wants to be with you.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Wow,

I just posted a thread a week or so ago about the 'I'm not a sexual person' WW's who, nevertheless, had PA's with their POSOM's....and now do not want sex with their BH's and/or don't do things with them they did with POSOM.

The point of the thread was what advice to give to guys in just your situation.....trying to R, don't want a D, but don't know how to deal with this bullsh*t.

The consensus on that thread was the only solution was to prepare for and file for D....be prepared to follow through, but MAYBE it would wake the WW up to their lack of remorse and working on healing their BH.

Best of luck.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

I for one, don't think that it's necessary to "threaten" divorce in the conversation, particularly if you've tried to talk to them before. They may not take you seriously. Instead, you tell them what you won't accept and if they continue with the same behavior, you just start the divorce process. When they get served they'll have an idea of what "not accept" means to you; and hopefully it will be all the more impactful.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

maybeobvious said:


> I spoke with my W a little while ago. Tried to keep it short. Basically said that I don't want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me, that I have tried to deal with this over the last 8 years but have finally accepted that I can't tolerate it and won't settle for it. She got defensive pretty quickly and played the "it's always about sex with you" card. I cut her off and called BS, that it was me feeling like she is hear because she has to be not that she wants to be that is the problem.
> I was explicit about the things I know from her A that continue to haunt me and she seemed a little surprised - maybe she had forgotten that I knew these things.
> After a few minutes of silence I started to leave the room and she stopped me and said "so what doe this mean?" I said it meant exactly what I said it meant, that I've proven to myself that I can't get over it without her help and that the ball is in her court. She didn't say anything and I left the room.


This is your first step to getting control back in your life and marriage. Be ready to lose the marriage to save it. If your W decides to take the trip with her toxic friends I think you have your answer. Have D papers ready upon her return. If your W is still in the dark as to the problem that stem from 8 years ago, explain it to her again. The resentment and hurt you have held in this long is taking its toll. You no longer want to deal with it and find a person who respects you.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Yeswecan said:


> This is your first step to getting control back in your life and marriage. Be ready to lose the marriage to save it. If your W decides to take the trip with her toxic friends I think you have your answer. Have D papers ready upon her return. If your W is still in the dark as to the problem that stem from 8 years ago, explain it to her again. T*he resentment and hurt you have held in this long is taking its toll. * You no longer want to deal with it and find a person who respects you.


I agree

Look at Riverrat's thread, rug sweeping sucks


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

maybeobvious said:


> It's not the trip per se that is the problem.


It should be a BIG problem for you. It would be bad enough even if she wasn't going with toxic friends. Which by the way, you should have insisted she stop contacting. Her friends that new about the A and didn't tell you, should be off limits to her forever. They are an enemy of your marriage and add insult to injury.

The fact that you would be willing to accept this; either means you don't understand what reasonable consequences are, or you fear divorce to the point that you are willing to look the other way.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

maybeobvious said:


> I spoke with my W a little while ago. Tried to keep it short. Basically said that I don't want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me, that I have tried to deal with this over the last 8 years but have finally accepted that I can't tolerate it and won't settle for it. She got defensive pretty quickly and played the "it's always about sex with you" card. I cut her off and called BS, that it was me feeling like she is hear because she has to be not that she wants to be that is the problem.
> I was explicit about the things I know from her A that continue to haunt me and she seemed a little surprised - maybe she had forgotten that I knew these things.
> After a few minutes of silence I started to leave the room and she stopped me and said "so what doe this mean?" I said it meant exactly what I said it meant, that I've proven to myself that I can't get over it without her help and that the ball is in her court. She didn't say anything and I left the room.


This is a start - she can not be allowed to go along life all happy while you suffer. You need to take care of you now. Do you have a counselor? do you think that would help you? Do you take care of yourself physically - meaning diet and exercise? These two things are crucial if you are to get beyond this. 

Your wife wants to know what this means? It means you don't just walk away from being a serial cheater and liar without consequences from now on. You are her safety net not her man. she was sexual with him and not you - remember she went out of her way for THREE [email protected]#$%^& years to give it up to another man but for you she won't even walk across the room. Is that how you want to live for the rest of your life? Really man you deserve better than a remorseless serial cheater...and a serial cheaters plan b to boot!


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

While it's true that you really should have fully addressed this with your wife when it happened, I understand that there's reason why you can't. It's not unlike my marriage where for 26 years I've been unhappy and can't address any of my issues because I'm in a situation where I can't (or won't) leave. 

I guess you have to be in a situation where you can leave to have conversations like this, if not you will get more of the same BS answers or unwilliness to address the situation. 

Sadly women hold all the cards when something like this happens, they get most of your money whether or not you leave or they decide not to address the issue.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You did great. The ball is in her court.
You should talk to a laywer in case your wife decides not to dribble that ball.
Divorce is a process and not an event.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Hicks is right.

Go speak with a lawyer.

And you know what else?

Your wife going to Atlantic City was the trigger.

Serve her papers before she goes to AC. Tell her to discuss this with her GF that knew about the 3 year affair before.

Tell her they both suck.

Make changes for you. Your wife has not grownup and her lack of communication is BS.

HM


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
You and your wife are cake eaters. She is using you to further her agenda and you are trying to live in the guise of a marriage without enforcing any marital boundaries and consequences for what she has done. If you want a marriage then you will have to take the steps necessary to have one. If you want an arrangement, a marriage in name only, then you need to let her do whatever she wants and get over it. You cannot have both. Either you stand up for yourself and let her know what will and will not be tolerated, backed up by actions, not threats or you continue on as you are and let her control the situation. Your choice but you must pick one.

As for the nuclear option, what has small arms negotiating gotten you thus far? Are the results acceptable? If not, then the red button is all that is left. Sometimes the threat of bombing is enough but you must be willing to push the button if necessary.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

There is no need to threaten.

What he simply needs to do is speak to a lawyer.

Have the papers drawn up.

Before she leaves for her trip he should sit her down and put the papers in her hand.

Tell her since she does not tell the truth, does not communicate and does not reciprocate with her husband like she did with the OM you have given her the tools to make a choice.

She can recommit to the marriage, communicate honestly and act like an adult or she can sign the papers, continue to be with the same friends since her affair and terminate the marriage in an amicable divorce.

Handle the conversation like an adult. Tell her she has her fun filled weekend to make a decision.

Let her know the fence sitting stance of a loveless marriage will no longer be tolerated and that no decision by her when she returns will result in you filing for divorce.

Please put half your savings into a separate amount just to be on the safe side.

ANd if she is the one driving to AC put a fresh VAR in the car to listen in on her conversation with her GF's.

That will show you the real her for sure.

HM


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

happyman64 said:


> There is no need to threaten.
> 
> What he simply needs to do is speak to a lawyer.
> 
> ...


This is an excellent plan. If your W still wants to go to AC after this talk I can assure you the marriage is done. For me, if I was given legal D forms to sign along with explanation I certainly would be staying to begin the sorting out of the marriage if I wanted to sort the marriage at all. 

Honestly, what your W did for OM and you are out in left field with the same is utter BS. I'm wondering why you waited so long. All the same, sorry it went down like that.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

My biggest problem here is I see no remorse from your wife. Not telling what happened has prevented you from forgiveness. This will keep you in an anxious stance as she did more for him then you. This is why she won't talk, she knows you will leave as she told her girlfriend. You need to write a list of what you need from your wife. 

Your wife not saying anything is protecting her and her OM. She is effectively preventing you from healing in any way because you don't feel safe. Those friends are no longer anyone she should have contact with. They have proven they are toxic to your marriage. Quite truthfully and I know this is harsh, but your wife is toxic to your marriage too. 

If she can't talk to you what is left? You have nothing at all but a roommate who occasionally says yes to sex. I don't even know from what you posted if there is anything left to save. But as long as your wife is quiet and not talking, as long as she is not remorseful, you have nothing to save. If I were you I would talk to an attorney, get the papers and begin to fill them out. When she asks what they are you can tell her you can't forgive something you know nothing about. So either start talking or leave me alone to fill these out. Good luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> There is no need to threaten.
> 
> What he simply needs to do is speak to a lawyer.
> 
> ...





Yeswecan said:


> *This is an excellent plan.* If your W still wants to go to AC after this talk I can assure you the marriage is done. For me, if I was given legal D forms to sign along with explanation I certainly would be staying to begin the sorting out of the marriage if I wanted to sort the marriage at all.
> 
> Honestly, what your W did for OM and you are out in left field with the same is utter BS. I'm wondering why you waited so long. All the same, sorry it went down like that.


No, although the goal is the right one, it's not an excellent plan.

Telling his WW that she can have a _"fun filled weekend"_ with her trashy girlfriends in AC and then make her decision is like saying she can have one last fling.

Among other things, he needs to draw a line in the sand and that line should be on this side of her spending another weekend carousing in AC (or anywhere else) ever again.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

carmen ohio said:


> No, although the goal is the right one, it's not an excellent plan.
> 
> Telling his WW that she can have a _"fun filled weekend"_ with her trashy girlfriends in AC and then make her decision is like saying she can have one last fling.
> 
> Among other things, he needs to draw a line in the sand and that line should be on this side of her spending another weekend carousing in AC (or anywhere else) ever again.


I agree with this unless the goal is to gather evidence and divorce.

Not a strong move to save the marriage but strategic for a divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

maybeobvious said:


> I don't have time now to post my complete story but here's the short version:
> 
> Found out in late 2007 that my W had been having A for three years with someone known to me. I confronted OM and W. A ended. Some details are known to me but many are not.
> 
> ...


Who gives a F if she accuses you of living in the past.

She's a serial cheat and wants to return to her happy hunting grounds.

There is no talking you need to do, except through a lawyer.


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## Mrtruth (Aug 20, 2015)

i beleive the reason sex with you is still not good with her and why she still wont do the things she did with him for you, she still loves him and does not want to ruin the sweet memories of her great lover by doing the same with you.

i would also bet money if he called her today and profesed his love to her she would leave you or restart the affair.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

happyman64 said:


> There is no need to threaten.
> 
> What he simply needs to do is speak to a lawyer.
> 
> ...


I agree, I'd just take it one step further is all given she just spat in his eye about the ONS.

I'd give her the papers, and make her force her way back into the marriage if that's what she wanted.

I'd say "sign here so you can go have as many ONS's without having to lie about it."

And if she cancels the trip on the spot, comes clean on everything, commits to a true reconciliation, then MAYBE I'd consider it.

Probably not, but it would be the price of entry for consideration.

No begging, no pleading, no forcing of decisions. A responsible adult who's married and is about to blow up her marriage risking her (at least) third infidelity and doesn't immediately stop and take stock of that...

Well, buh-bye.


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## BrokenLady (Jan 19, 2015)

I'm so sorry that you're going through this. I know the complete mind f**k that betrayal creates. 

Will you share what you WANT? In your dream world what happens? People have this image of a great M & in theory we have to agree. It sounds wonderful but at the end of the day WHAT do you truly want to happen? Are you hurting & venting? Do you want to stay married?

I know that all seems obvious but REALLY think about it. Do you just want a quiet life with your family? Were you basically happy/content before this trigger? Deep down do you want to divorce & start a new life? Is fear of the unknown keeping you there?

Once you honestly know what you need now you can take steps in THAT direction. Even threatening divorce can make things spiral out in a direction you might not want.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

Dear maybeobvious,

It's clear from what you have told us that you've got almost a decade of wrong thinking to overcome. Let me see if I can give you a few pointers:



maybeobvious said:


> I don't have time now to post my complete story but here's the short version:
> 
> Found out in late 2007 that my W had been having A for three years with someone known to me. I confronted OM and W. A ended. *Some details are known to me but many are not. [This was your first big mistake -- not finding out what really happened when it happened. Now, if you ask, she can plead forgetfulness and downplay the seriousness of what she did. This would not be a serious problem if you had the courage to act on the basis of imperfect information, but I sense that you don't.]*
> 
> ...


As noted above, your problem is that your W doesn't have much, if any, desire for you. To a large extent, this is the direct result of your having let her get away with cheating on you. By doing so, you have demonstrated to her that you are weak, haave little self-respect and are someone she can manipulate. All of these things are kryptonite to a woman's feelings of desire for a man.

If you wish to have any hope of improving your marriage and reigniting her passion for you, you need to become once again the man she fell in love with. You can't do this by continuing to put up with her taking you for granted and disrespecting you.

Can this be done? Frankly, so much foul water has flowed under the bridge that I seriously doubt. IMO, if having a fulfilling sex life is your goal, you would be far better off divorcing her and finding someone who is into you.

But, if you want to give it a try, I would suggest you start by showing her that you're not going to _'settle'_ any more. The best way to do this right now is to tell her that she's not going to AC with her trashy friends unless she is OK coming home to divorce papers. Tell her this in a very matter of fact manner then refuse to engage in any discussion.

The next thing I would recommend is that you read _"Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011"_ by Athol Kay (The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 - Kindle edition by Athol Kay. Health, Fitness & Dieting Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.) and _"No More Mr. Nice Guy"_ by Dr. Robert Glover (https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf). The first book is a _'how to'_ manual for reigniting passion in a marriage and the second is designed to help a man root out co-dependent thinking (of which you have plenty).

Finally, I would recommend that, every morning from now on, you look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself, _'what am I going to do today that will earn my W's respect?'_

Good luck.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

I honestly believe what saved my marriage after 6 affairs (that are chronicled in other threads) was the filing of divorce papers. Not GETTING DIVORCED, but filing the papers and serving them to her. It was a big wake-up call to her and she could no longer be a cake eater. I also separated accounts and put her on a strick allowance. No way was she gonna use my money to buy stuff for APs. This action caused an immediate reaction and the A's ended shortly after. Not only was she dependent on me as a SAHM, but in our state if caught cheating she could lose any settlement benefits if at fault. 

In order for you to drop the suit she must do the following:

1 end the A now, plus no contact agreement
2 come clean with honest answers to your questions, that match the story from the OM, friends, Co workers, etc (I failed to do this and it took 11 yrs to finally get the truth, and it was bad)
3 drop the toxic friends, permanently 
4 if the OM is in the work environment, she has to quit
5 open access to comp, phone, etc 
6 change locks to a timelock, she has 15 min to be home after work, unless cleared by you
7 VARs and GPS trackers in operation
8 open sex responsibilities at all times with you


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I agree with this unless the goal is to gather evidence and divorce.
> 
> Not a strong move to save the marriage but strategic for a divorce.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought about that but rejected it for three reasons.

First, it depends on both the OP's driving and the OP having the courage to plant the VAR.

Second, and more importantly, I'm not a big fan of spying on a WS once the decision to D has been made unless proving infidelity can affect the outcome which, in most places, it can't.

Third, and most importantly, the OP is not ready to D his WW. So what he needs is advice to help him save his marriage. Giving her another chance to cheat conflicts with this objective in a big way.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

You cannot control your spouse's actions.

Just the fact she would walk out the door to go to AC while being handed D papers would be telling.

But I think the BS needs to see what she is truly like with her friends while he is not around. Hence the VAR.

These are sh!t tests. My guess is she would fail them all.

I would have hired a PI to tail her party in AC but in all honesty I think the BS knows after all these years what he wants from his marriage and what he needs to do to be happy.

The D papers and telling her to think about what she wants from the marriage while away is a test. It is not permission to "F" around.

If she still chooses to go to AC: Strike 1.
If she chooses to tell her friends about the D papers and bad mouths her BS: Strike 2.
If she "F's" around over her weekend away: Strike 3.

Now he no longer needs to wait around another few years for her to disappoint him over and over.

No plan is perfect. The key is to have one. He already took an important step. Now he needs to follow up so she comprehends he is serious about the state of their marriage.

HM


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

carmen ohio said:


> I thought about that but rejected it for three reasons.
> 
> First, it depends on both the OP's driving and the OP having the courage to plant the VAR.
> 
> ...


You and I don't disagree at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> You cannot control your spouse's actions.
> 
> Just the fact she would walk out the door to go to AC while being handed D papers would be telling.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more.


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## hospitality (Feb 24, 2014)

MAJDEATH said:


> I honestly believe what saved my marriage after 6 affairs (that are chronicled in other threads) was the filing of divorce papers. Not GETTING DIVORCED, but filing the papers and serving them to her. It was a big wake-up call to her and she could no longer be a cake eater. I also separated accounts and put her on a strick allowance. No way was she gonna use my money to buy stuff for APs. This action caused an immediate reaction and the A's ended shortly after. Not only was she dependent on me as a SAHM, but in our state if caught cheating she could lose any settlement benefits if at fault.
> 
> In order for you to drop the suit she must do the following:
> 
> ...


OP you think you are alpha which most guys are in their professional lives but in your personal relationship you have showed little if any alpha for eight years, hence the eight years. Talking about sex or talking about divorce is the most beta thing a man can do. Attraction is all action. Your wife views you as beta that's why she isn't attracted to you. It's her perception that is reality which is that you are beta otherwise she would have known if her husband finds out he will kick me straight out the door. Eight years later she is still pushing boundaries.

To answer a few of your questions:

Women do things with affair partners that they would never do with their spouse for two reasons. First, they aren't attacked to their husbands to the degree they are to their AP. It's simple we all dated women who did missionary only sex with our friends then when they broke up and we got a chance they were complete freaks in bed. It's simple they weren't really attracted to our friend much in the first place. Secondly, AP only has to fill the affair void. AP doesn't have to a be a good dad, wealthy, handsome, exciting, smart or a million other things. All the AP has to do is switch on those few things that are missing and the legs are wide open for crazy fun. Think of that movie Silver Linings Playbook staring Bradly Cooper. His wife is in the shower with a George Castanza look like when she has Bradly Cooper to bang. But Bradly Cooper was bipolar and good old George could probably provide security and stability so she brought old George home to bang at lunch time in the shower. I bet Bradly Cooper never got her to bang in the shower period! That's why once divorce papers are served and they have to look at OM as a complete package the unicorns and rainbows instantly fade. Got the point?

Also, I understand your desire to see your kids everyday and not break up the family. I totally get that since I have kids. But please for the love of God have more respect for yourself then to worry about finances. I have a business I have worked on since 1998, have an awesome house and toys galore, but man I would trade ALL that in so fast to live in a studio apartment with some woman who is into me in an instant if I was in your shoes. Once your wife understands that you are willing to trade it all in is when you will get some of your alpha back and actually give yourself your best chance to reconcile.

Lastly, please stop "the talks" with your wife. That is just more beta. Alpha is action!


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

You are going to have to live in the present and grow up. Sorry to sound so harsh.

You avoided real action before because of your childhood. No divorce because my parents did. You have to grow up. You are not a child fulfilling a child's dream of a unified family. You are a man with a cheating wife and who has kids that need a better life than living with a broken dad and a cheating mom. 

You put the ball in her court. Why? You have to make a decision. Your marriage was ruined because the ball was in her court. You were destroyed beCause it was in her court. Now, you make a speech and then give her the ball again!? Come on. Get the ball and you declare how it's going to be.

You dont want to divorce her because you need her, and not in a healthy way. Heal yourself. Get therapy. Tell her that you are done. File for divorce, even if you dont want it. If she can't or won't show you why she deserves to stay married to you, then you will force yourself to live without her. Right now, shee knows that you will take what she gives you. Sadly, its cheating and disrespect.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

You have proven once again that rug sweeping is not an effective method of dealing with a cheater.....Tell her straight out that if she go's to A.C. there will be dire consequences. If she still go's, have the divorce papers ready for her to sign when she gets home...Hardball time

good luck
Woodchuck


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

"I feel like I should have kicked her out in 2007 and made her demonstrate that she was truly remorseful"

Better late than never to do this. You actually believed the i am not into sex line. Barring some medically diagnosed issue all spouses are into sex. Unfortunately not always with their partner.

You need to gain back some self respect. Do a 180 on her and be fully prepared to file for Divorce. Forget the time for talking and all that reasnable soft stuff. The time for reason has passed. She doesn't respect reason she shat all over it.

Only by offering up some real time unremorseful consequences do you have any shot at fixing this. 

I am truly sorry you are going through this.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I hate to say this but DNA testing the children should be considered.

This is not always to identify parantage but to show your wife you can nolonger trust ANYTHING she has said or done throughout your entire marriage.

Marital counselling might be worth a shot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

Holy this story. I feel so sorry for you my friend,damn.

Your wife was in affair of 3 years,maybe even more. She did things with him and still refuse to do it with you. She is LOYAL to her loverboy?

Are you sure she was clean in this past 8 years,maybe she is still seeing him or maybe some other guy/s.

She never told you or talk to you about her affair,that is a BIG problem here,but on the other hand she openly talks about her affair with her girlfriends. So what does it mean--she has no respect for you or any love for you.

After you found out about affair,she still keep seeing her "friends".

You stayed in this marriage just because of the kids and you tried to work things out. It is not solution,just staying in marriage becase of kids is bad thing.

You deserve some happiens my friend,file for Divorce and be happy please.


Best wishes from EU


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## maybeobvious (Sep 11, 2015)

Quick update: As I was getting dressed this morning, W who was still in bed, held out her arms and asked me to come over. I did. She said she loves me and wants to make things work but she's not sure what she can do. I told her I want that too but that I'm done with the silent treatment and she will need to open up to me. She acknowledged that. Then I had to go to start my day.
I haven't yet told her not to go to AC but will do that later today. My question is, assuming she agrees not to go, and given what she said this morning, where do I go from here with her? I feel like the next step is to have her answer all of the questions that I have. Let's assume that happens. Then what? If she immediately acts affectionate and sexual toward me I will doubt her motives and sincerity.
I appreciate everyone's interest and comments. Thanks.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

maybeobvious said:


> Quick update: As I was getting dressed this morning, W who was still in bed, held out her arms and asked me to come over. I did. She said she loves me and wants to make things work but she's not sure what she can do. I told her I want that too but that I'm done with the silent treatment and she will need to open up to me. She acknowledged that. Then I had to go to start my day.
> I haven't yet told her not to go to AC but will do that later today. My question is, assuming she agrees not to go, and given what she said this morning, where do I go from here with her? *I feel like the next step is to have her answer all of the questions that I have.* Let's assume that happens. Then what? If she immediately acts affectionate and sexual toward me I will doubt her motives and sincerity.
> I appreciate everyone's interest and comments. Thanks.


That is a start, the next step might depend on the answers you get from her.

Well It sounds like you need/want affection and her being sexual towards you, better to start now


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Morning Mayb,

Since your going to tell her that she should not go to AC , then i would suggest that instead you guys get away together where you can get away from any disruption and tell her you want the full details of what happen, that you will ask her questions and she will answer them truthfully even it makes you sick. Now if she does not accept that offer then you tell her that is what you need to move forward otherwise we are at an impasse. Also she needs to show and demonstrate that her marriage comes first above all else above anyone else, that she is willing to do the heavy lifting...don't you think that is is fair?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

GusPolinski said:


> The time for decisive action was 8 years ago.


Yes, and no.

He has a second chance at developing respect and enforcing boundaries, and now he HAS to go that route - the same route he didn't 8 years ago.

Now's the time to tell her, unequivocally, that she is not going on that trip, nor any others (especially with those women). Frankly, she should not be spending any time with those women ever again, and she should make new friends.

Hindsight is always 20/20, but he can look at this as a second chance to develop respect - and he must take it.

If he doesn't, his wife, even if subconsciously, will lose even more respect for him. Yes, she wants to go and have a good time with her friends, and doesn't want to miss out, and no, she won't be happy that she stays home, BUT, if she does go, somewhere in the back of her mind, she'll know she can still do whatever she wants, when she wants, with only a slight push-back from her husband.

That is the s****y thing about staying in a relationship where there's been infidelity - situations like this will arise, which require a heavy hand and some level of perceived unfairness. She will resist and be angry and unhappy, but the eventual realization (hopefully) that her husband no longer accepts this kind of BS is tantamount to her developing some level of respect for you.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

maybeobvious said:


> Quick update: As I was getting dressed this morning, W who was still in bed, held out her arms and asked me to come over. I did. She said she loves me and wants to make things work but she's not sure what she can do. I told her I want that too but that I'm done with the silent treatment and she will need to open up to me. She acknowledged that. Then I had to go to start my day.
> I haven't yet told her not to go to AC but will do that later today. My question is, assuming she agrees not to go, and given what she said this morning, where do I go from here with her? I feel like the next step is to have her answer all of the questions that I have. Let's assume that happens. Then what? If she immediately acts affectionate and sexual toward me I will doubt her motives and sincerity.
> I appreciate everyone's interest and comments. Thanks.


She needs to do the heavy lifting. That's what she needs to do.

Invite her on a family weekend on the date of her planned girl's break. 

Her response will be an indication of her real attitude to you and the children.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Everybody is assuming she doesn't go to Atlantic City. I think she's going
to put up a big fight over this. He better be able to enforce his boundary if
he is going to give her one. 

OP

If you are going to tell her she can't go, in which I am in total agreement, you better
be willing to lose your marriage over it.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

ButtPunch said:


> Everybody is assuming she doesn't go to Atlantic City. I think she's going
> to put up a big fight over this. He better be able to enforce his boundary if
> he is going to give her one.
> 
> ...


This. It must be your non negotiable line in the sand.

"Wife, if you choose to go on this trip, I will have clearly been shown your priorities, and will act accordingly."


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I think the time for talk is done. She doesn't respect you at all as shown by her reoccurring behavior. This marriage is dead and you need to let her go on this trip so you can pack and move while she is gone, move half your money and assets, and hire a good divorce attorney.

And the kids thing is an excuse. Trading an divorced household for an intact household where the mother emotionally abuses and disrespects the father is as damaging if not more than divorcing. What you are showing them is what they will have engrained in them as a normal and functioning relationship. And even if you did stay the chances she will will leave you are high. Probably as soon as she finds your replacement, so then you will end up divorced anyway


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

maybeobvious said:


> Quick update: As I was getting dressed this morning, W who was still in bed, held out her arms and asked me to come over. I did. She said she loves me and wants to make things work but she's not sure what she can do. I told her I want that too but that I'm done with the silent treatment and she will need to open up to me. She acknowledged that. Then I had to go to start my day.
> I haven't yet told her not to go to AC but will do that later today. My question is, assuming she agrees not to go, and given what she said this morning, where do I go from here with her? I feel like the next step is to have her answer all of the questions that I have. Let's assume that happens. Then what? If she immediately acts affectionate and sexual toward me I will doubt her motives and sincerity.
> I appreciate everyone's interest and comments. Thanks.


1. Don't do that again - come running and hug her when she asks. This is dominance, man. As in her asserting it over you. 

2. Tell her in no uncertain terms what she must do. No trip, admit what happened with full details, and demonstrate remorse. 

3. Tell her in no uncertain terms that if you do not get this, you're done. And even if you do, there are no guarantees.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

Okay, I am confused. Please help me, as I assume the following to be true:

1. She had a ONS with this guy in Vegas. She claims it was just an EA in Vegas, BUT
2. She then had a 3 year affair with the same guy she was actually having sex with him and doing stuff that she denied you?

You rugsweep for years and now she is going back to vegas with a toxic friend.

She has been giving you the silent treatment for some time and now, after you show some small sign of a backbone, she hugs you, kisses you and now you feel like this is some sort of break through?

She did not say, I'm cancelling the trip and I love you. She did not say, I'm dropping the toxic friend and hug you. She just hugs and kisses you and you are giddy?

My friend, I don't mean to be harsh, but you are not going to do anything but suffer. I'm sorry. You are not healed, she is not going to heal you, you are not going to heal yourself, you are just going to cope, deny, suck it up, suffer, and continue. I hope you do something else, but based on all that you have said, that is what is going to happen. Good luck to you.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

maybeobvious said:


> Quick update: As I was getting dressed this morning, W who was still in bed, held out her arms and asked me to come over. I did. She said she loves me and wants to make things work but she's not sure what she can do. I told her I want that too but that I'm done with the silent treatment and she will need to open up to me. She acknowledged that. Then I had to go to start my day.
> I haven't yet told her not to go to AC but will do that later today. My question is, assuming she agrees not to go, and given what she said this morning, where do I go from here with her? I feel like the next step is to have her answer all of the questions that I have. Let's assume that happens. Then what? If she immediately acts affectionate and sexual toward me I will doubt her motives and sincerity.
> I appreciate everyone's interest and comments. Thanks.


Don't be a sucker. Your W knows what's coming concerning AC. In other words, don't play into what possibly might be a game to get you start to trust so that you will be agreeable to the trip with toxic friends to AC. The bull crap starts here and now. Your W knows what she needs to do to make this marriage right. Going off to AC with her toxic friends is not one of the right things. IMO, you should allow your W the opportunity to figure that portion out on her own and make a conscientious decision to cancel the trip. If your W gets to this point you then have a fighting chance.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

It is real simple alcoholics do not work or hang out at bars. She has proven herself unable to handle herself as a commit married spouse in certain scenarios. 

Do not tell her not to go. Instead tell her: "by going it tells me that you values your toxic friends and GNO more then your marriage. 
Your actions to date show a lack of empathy for not just me but others as well. Go or stay, merely asking says it all and if you go we are done, and if you stay we might be done as well. You have inflicted a wound our marriage that will never completely heal. This is a problem only your empathy can alleviate. The question is do both of us have the strength and commitment to endure. The past is the future unless we change it. If you stay I will work with you to change the future. It is your choice and only your choice." 

If she says that is not fair, agree with her and tell her life is not fair. Walk away and begin a hard 180. Allow only conversations about how the divorce will proceed. Do not even consider R until paper work is filed and a settlement reach. If she tries to talk about R with you say not until the paperwork is filed and a settlement reached.


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## Mrtruth (Aug 20, 2015)

You have lasted this long I would sit her down of you were me and I'd say the second the youngest kid is out of the house I'm gone to. You won't fight with her ask her questions about where she goes what she does. You to are roommate's no more kissing more sex you are tired of not getting what she freely gave away to someone else.

Don't be mean don't be hateful just tell her you deserve better than her and are tired of being her 2 choice in everything. 

She will have until your youngest leaves to prove she can and will change. I suggest have her make an account on a different site like SI so she can find out what she needs to do and what to change to save her marriage.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

How about instead, you say, "Wife, you can't go that weekend because you need to stay home for our kids. I'm going to party in Vegas that weekend with the boys. Oh, and don't call me -- I'll be busy. And no, I won't be telling you what I'm up to."


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## dental (Apr 16, 2014)

Oh dear,

OP, your WW has been disrespecting you for a decade. She has had more penis in her every orifice, then is known to you. Loathes you. Does as she pleases, when she pleases, and you're not involved in the decision making process. 

At this moment, you're just starting to realize the situation you're in. You look at her a tiny bit different then the last 8 years. She corrects this change of status quo by giving you a cuddle. With a blanket and your cloths in between you and her. And you're happy again. This is the size of the breadcrumb that will make you happy. Man, you have sone serious self-esteem work to do.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

dental said:


> Oh dear,
> 
> OP, your WW has been disrespecting you for a decade. She has had more penis in her every orifice, then is known to you. Loathes you. Does as she pleases, when she pleases, and you're not involved in the decision making process.
> 
> At this moment, you're just starting to realize the situation you're in. You look at her a tiny bit different then the last 8 years. She corrects this change of status quo by giving you a cuddle. With a blanket and your cloths in between you and her. And you're happy again. This is the size of the breadcrumb that will make you happy. Man, you have sone serious self-esteem work to do.


She probably doesn't loathe him. In fact she probably does love him. A lot.

BUT!!! If she doesn't make him FEEL her love for him, then what is the point of it all?

Answer? None. No point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maybeobvious (Sep 11, 2015)

Some of you guys read a lot between the lines of my last post. There was no "cuddling" or anything else that would suggest to her that her overture had any impact on me.
We had to run an errand together at mid-day and in the car I told her I was ready to hear what she had to say. Among other things, she said:

"I want to be sure that you haven't already decided to leave" i.e. as if to say, is there any point to her trying? 
"Is there someone else?"
"You seem different"
"I already told you everything" about sex with OM.
"I thought we were happy"

We arrived at our destination so things came to a halt. I'll see if she resumes later. I'm not inclined to ask her to.

To the "you seem different" comment, I told her that I am different in that for the first time I see D as a viable option, have imagined what the path would look like and am confident that everyone would be fine or better in the end.

My gut tells me that getting the sex details out of her will be a challenge - and I have very little actual knowledge of what happened but I know that the OM wouldn't have sacrificed his career and family for plain vanilla sex. At the end of the day I'll need to decide if she's telling me the whole truth. I have a few more cards to play to extract more information from her so we'll see how it goes.

Re the AC trip, I'm leaning toward not bringing it up and waiting to see what she does as I think that will tell me much more than if I tell her not to go (I know she will not go if I tell her not to). If she empathizes at all with my situation she will decide to stay home. If she decides to go I will let her know the consequences of that before she leaves.

Stay tuned and thanks.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

have you ever informed the OMW about the affair? i hope you told her.


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## maybeobvious (Sep 11, 2015)

Xenote said:


> have you ever informed the OMW about the affair? i hope you told her.


Yes, immediately after d-day (2007). Confronted OM in person, told him to stop coaching my son's team (he did); told OMW (who later confronted my W by phone) and - unfortunately - told my son so that he would understand that someone he looked up to was a POS and also so that he heard it from me and not from a teammate in the locker room.

Incidentally, my W has resented me (hated probably) ever since for telling my son. To my knowledge she has never discussed any of this with him.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

I think you handled the conversation brilliantly. Your response to you "seem different" - perfect. Your decision not to use the AC trip as a test - wise. Your use of the word empathy amazing. I think you get what I mean what I say when I use the term. Again and again I come back to the thought: A marriage devoid of mutual empathy or the desire to be so, is dead. 
Perhaps at this point she needs to explore how she would react if the situation were reversed and why. Then how you would react and why. Then compare the two. the answers will shed light on if your marriage can be saved.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

JohnA said:


> Your decision not to use the AC trip as a test - wise.


It very well could be wise, *IF* she already knows how you feel about her going on that trip. I would be concerned that she doesn't; and in her mind it's not an issue with you. I say this because you as much admitted that it wasn't, earlier in this thread.

If that is the case, and you wait until the last minute to tell her; that could be very problematic in terms of her thinking it "is" a test. Not to mention the loss of deposits, etc.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

maybeobvious said:


> Any thoughts on how to bring this up after 8 years without my W feeling like I'm living in the past? We have a long history of me talking and her not responding so I would love to get my point across as quickly as possible. Something like:
> 
> I know you think that everything is fine but it's not. I don't want to continue living with someone who "just isn't into" me. I'm pissed at myself that I've settled for that for the last 8 years and I'm not doing it any longer.
> 
> Thoughts?


My counselor said to me that an issue isn't resolved if it is still an open issue for one of the spouses. !!!!! 

You're letting your wife define an issue as closed because she won't talk about it, or she runs you down when you bring it up. "Off-the-table-itis", where she takes the topic off the table, is what's happening. She is unilaterally declaring the issue finished, when it is nowhere near finished for you. You can never get to closure or resolution like this.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Rather than tell her not to go to AC, ask her a question:

Wife, do you think a wife who had a ONS in Vegas, and a sexual affair, should go to AC without her husband?

You know what you think. You have to get her into making choices rather than you dictating things.


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## warshaw (Jul 31, 2015)

maybeobvious said:


> Re the AC trip, I'm leaning toward not bringing it up and waiting to see what she does as I think that will tell me much more than if I tell her not to go (I know she will not go if I tell her not to). If she empathizes at all with my situation she will decide to stay home. If she decides to go I will let her know the consequences of that before she leaves.
> 
> Stay tuned and thanks.


This is not the way to handle it. There is no need to test your wife. she had sex with another guy, and she has not come clean with the details. She's already failed the exam, the quizzes are not going to tell you anything you don't already know.

It's time to take control of the situation. Stop waiting for her to decide what to do and then responding. 

Tell her that given the history and the lack of details provided about the affair, you cannot trust her and she will not be going on that trip, the option is not on the table and not open for discussion. 

As compared to "I will wait and see if she cares enough about me not to go".

She does not care enough about you. That was obvious when she had sex with the other guy.

If you choose to stay with her you need to lay out the rules and guidelines which she must follow- or you will end the marriage. 

End of story.


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## warshaw (Jul 31, 2015)

Hicks said:


> You have to get her into making choices rather than you dictating things.


That's funny I said the exact opposite.

I think that sort of advice might work in some situations, but in this one? She cannot be given a loose leash, she has no accountability and limited remorse. In other words she cannot be trusted to make good decisions. In fact she cannot be trusted at all.

She's like an untrained dog on a leash. Don't let her go free because she'll go pee on someones leg. Or something like that.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Maybeobvious,

One thing you need to do is get a polygraph for your WW, make a list of 100 questions in a note book, have her write down her answers. The polygraph will consist of did you answer MBOs questions truthfully? Schedule the exam and don't let her weasel out of it.

I would re expose OM to everyone in his life who matters his parents , grandparents , adult children , at school, facebook, linkedin and especially to youth sports programs. This man has no business being in a position of trust or authority. OMs spell on your WW also has to be broken.

Also I would confront your WW toxic friends and make it known that you consider them to be enemys of your childrens family which they are. If they are in affairs make it know to their husbands.

No more Mr Nice Guy

Tamat


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

maybeobvious,

How close does OM live to you?

Tamat


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

maybeobvious, your wife sounds a lot like mine, and you like me. When I recently told my wife, again, for the 3rd or 4th time in the last 4 years that deception and dishonesty are nuclear boundaries for me, she said she didn't realize it. Then she mumbled something about how deception seems to be a hot button issue for me.

No, deception is Chernobyl and ***ushima rolled into one for me. Then I said she obviously hadn't understood that before. And she replied no she didn't realize it.

Wtf? She didn't know deception was a deal breaker after I had spelled it out clearly and specifically?

So your wife didn't really understand that her fvcking another man was a BFD to you? She didn't realize it triggers you when she does something similar, in this case going to AC with some of the same enablers and cheerleaders from her long term affair?

You have to report to your wife clearly that you are at the end of your rope. I like what you told her yesterday. And she has to know it was her actions which led to this point, not some emotional weakness or psychological hangup on your part.

It is time for you to set boundaries. "I will not be in a marriage with a woman who ..." is the format.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

A post nup?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

maybeobvious said:


> Is divorce the only consequence that can be used in this situation?


Given that you've rugswept for X years? Probably. At LEAST filing for divorce and letting it go slowly so that she sees she needs to take it seriously. But you have to be willing to go through with it.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

You can't fix this for her. She has to do the work this time around. You can tell her what you need, though I would not spell it out too precisely in order to make sure she doesn't fake it. I would tell her she has to think about what she did and how it affected you. She needs to consider how her current and future actions will be interpreted by you, how you will be affected, and what your boundaries are. Put the onus on her to do a lot of thinking about what has happened and what will happen. She may or may not have the necessary epiphany which provokes real change.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

I can't remember it clearly, but PM Chap, he used to post a list for WS's on helping their BS heal.

I'm not going to go over the past non-action, but will ask,,, how can you put up with her keeping these friends ??

They ALL have to go. Best friend or not, she is not a true friend of your wife or the marriage, and your wife as a serial cheater, has no business hanging around these people.

Oh, and please tell us you don't allow these people in your home.


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

Why do you torturing yourself ? Your wife was in affair of THREE years. Three long years of lying,sneaking behind your back and your son's back,doing things with him that she denided to you !

She is still best friends with this other girls and they knew about affair,all details about affair,while you my friend are still "blind".

Are you 100% sure that she was faitful in last 8 years ?

How did she help you to heal your broken heart ?

If it is me in your situation I would Divorce her long time ago,but if I wanted to work things out she would have to tell me ALL details about affair and WHY. She would have to find another friends,less toxic. Girls nights out would stop immediately,if she wants to go out she can invite me or my kids.

I would never,never stay in marriage just because of the kids. I dont want them to grow up in marriage where my wife does not love me and respect me. I would still find ways to be in my kids life,that is for sure.


Stay strong my friend and keep us updated


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Hicks said:


> Rather than tell her not to go to AC, ask her a question:
> 
> Wife, do you think a wife who had a ONS in Vegas, and a sexual affair, should go to AC without her husband?
> 
> You know what you think. You have to get her into making choices rather than you dictating things.



add to this that she would be going with the toxic friends.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

You're getting kicked around some here. I hope you realize its goal is to get you to realize some hard truths that have been learned around here thru some pretty nasty situations. Lots of basic common "cheating wife" parables in your story.

Its hard to come to grips that something terrible has happened to you, and that you'll have to do drastic and uncomfortable things to live thru it with any dignity. You really do have to be ready to lose it all to save either your marriage or self respect. Sadly, that can get expensive as well as painful. It can also change the landscape of everything you're accustomed to. The important thing to remember is that it is HER fault. Her selfish shltty a$$ behavior and lack of regard for you and her family that caused this.

Stew on that awhile. She stabbed you in the back, disregarded her vows, screwed another man, lied to you, and wiped her feet on your back. That's some disgusting and hateful crap she's tossed on you. What has she ever done to clean up the mess? When has she shown she realized or cared how badly she treated you?

You don't have to come off like the Terminator to get her attention. You do have to be decisive, and resolute. She can decide to face up to the consequences, hear you out, and behave like a decent wife, or she can go it alone.

Based on your description of her, she'll probably just poo-poo you off. She's used to deciding how things in the marriage are going to be by herself. She decides for you what you'll have to put up with. That's when you must decide for her she's going on without you in tow.

Oh, and stop thinking/worrying so much about what she wants, what she will do. She's proven her thought process and decision making doesn't include you.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

maybeobvious said:


> Incidentally, my W has resented me (hated probably) ever since for telling my son. To my knowledge she has never discussed any of this with him.


Your W then has an idea how you feel for her detonating a bomb under your marriage. Does your W realize the collateral damage that could come in the future? That damage resulting from a pending D initiated by her poor choice? It was only a matter of time your son finds out. Kids have questions. It may not be asked at that time but down the road when they have matured the unanswered question come up.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

> Re the AC trip, I'm leaning toward not bringing it up and waiting to see what she does as I think that will tell me much more than if I tell her not to go (I know she will not go if I tell her not to). If she empathizes at all with my situation she will decide to stay home. If she decides to go I will let her know the consequences of that before she leaves.


I think this is a wise stance to take.

You cannot control her.

But you can always show her consequences for bad decisions that she makes.

How old is your son?

Has your wife's GF that knew of the A ever said anything to you?

HM


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Just make sure she KNOWS what the consequences of the trip will be before she goes. 

And then make sure you follow THROUGH on those consequences. No emotion, no blame game, just 'this is what I will and won't accept in my marriage - if you don't agree, we'll have to agree to move on in different directions' and then when she gets back, 'I told you what my boundaries were and you crossed them, so I'll be looking into what it takes to start a legal separation.'


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

maybeobvious said:


> My question is, how after all these years can I engage my W - a champion non-talker - in a discussion about things that I need in order to move on?


"Wife if you go on this trip, I PROMISE YOU, you will have divorce papers waiting for you when you get back. You decide what's more important to you, your family or scumbags. Considering your colorful prior history with GNOs, this is a NONNEGOTIABLE issue for me. I will not live my life wondering what you are up to because you want to associate with trash."

AND MEAN EVERY WORD...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I would flip that thinking around and not ultimatum her at all. 

I'd put a smile on my face as she packs her bags. And then I'd block her phone number, go black on her while she's away, and lawyer up.

Because any wife worth reconciling with after this kind of stuff wouldn't go and willingly put you in a place where you would be thinking that she would be doing it to you again. 

Natural consequences. Not threats. 

If she complies, it won't be because she has empathy and remorse and no longer wants to go. It will be because you don't trust her and are controlling her. 

Let her make her own decisions. Her decisions naturally mean that she doesn't deserve to stay married to you. 

She may comply to an ultimatum this time, but she'll just test it and push that boundary again time after time. Someone who wants to cheat will cheat no matter what ultimatums you lay.

Think long term man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

marduk said:


> I would flip that thinking around and not ultimatum her at all.
> 
> I'd put a smile on my face as she packs her bags. And then I'd block her phone number, go black on her while she's away, and lawyer up.
> 
> ...


While I agree with you he has got to start somewhere and this trip is a good place.

I am sure the whole ordeal won't be solved if she doesn't go. I bet she becomes resentfull and not
remorseful. I think he's in for power struggle. He may never get a remorseful wife and hopefully he
is strong enough to recognize that and walk away if it comes to that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Anyone watch Z Nation? LOVE that show! Anyway, short synopsis, it's a zombie world and ONE guy somehow is immune to being bitten by zombies (although he's slowly turning). So this ragtag group of people spent the first season dragging him across the country to LA so some mythical research center can access his DNA and come up with a cure for the zombies. It became a real family over the season, you know?

But Murphy, the guy in question, well, he started out as a convict inmate, so he's not that great of a guy. Very selfish. Won't put himself out there for anyone.

Well the second season started, and people have heard there's a reward for getting him to California, so it's a free for all, people killing people just to get hold of him and take him in. And he, of course, just wants to escape ALL of them. What a jerk. The whole first episode of S2, he's running from everyone, his newfound 'family' is fighting off all the other people trying to kill them to get hold of him, it's just madness. And Murphy, well, he's just being selfish old Murphy. 

Until the end of the episode - SPOILER ALERT! - and one of the 'family' ends up going down, getting bitten, and having to be shot in the head so he won't 'turn.' Well, his lover, his mate, she's BEYOND mad and upset and the family ends up regaining Murphy - but she gets there first. She beats the SH*T out of him, she's so angry that they all had to go through all that crap just because he was running - from everyone, including his 'family.'

Anyhoo, what I'm getting at, that ending scene, where everyone realizes that that one family member didn't make it, that it wouldn't have happened if Murphy hadn't gleefully gone on the run like he had, that that guy would still be alive...you can see it ALL on Murphy's face. Nearly broke me, watching it. Here's this selfish guy "cheating" on his family, and it literally destroyed part of them, and he's right there to see the aftermath, to see the path of HIS destruction. And he, probably for the first time in his whole life (yes, I know he's just a character, he's acting, but even so...), he sees what it means to have people love you and care for you and DIE for you, and for you to be responsible for their destruction. And he looked like HE wanted to die.

Incredibly well acted, and it was gut wrenching. And I immediately thought of TAM, and all the people who 'die' from their cheating spouses' actions, and such a wish to just have ANY of those cheaters go through what Murphy went through, to SEE the path of their destruction in their family's eyes.

Hope that wasn't too dumb, but I highly recommend anyone watching this episode at least, to see what I mean. And if you can get a cheater to see it, all the better.


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## Thinkitthrough (Sep 5, 2012)

Not too dumb for me. I am 18 months out from D-day and I teach English in High School. One of the short stories we do involves a 15 year old girl who had committed herself to becoming a concert pianist. Her Aunt, who was also her teacher had ordered her never to ride a bike. The girl becomes obsessed with riding a bike. She decides she is going to "do it". She tells herself she will only do it once, she knows she won't do it again, no one will ever find out and she just has to do it. Of course her aunt finds out, is totally betrayed and hurt by her actions and ends their relationship. I'm in the middle of a class when I realise that this could be an analogy for a ONS or an affair and I get hit with triggers, mind movies and the whole bit. Three weeks later I am still struggling. My fWW is supportive, loving and empathetic, but she took a hit too. Sucks!!!


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## Grey (Jan 13, 2015)

MAJDEATH said:


> I honestly believe what saved my marriage after 6 affairs (that are chronicled in other threads) was the filing of divorce papers. Not GETTING DIVORCED, but filing the papers and serving them to her. It was a big wake-up call to her and she could no longer be a cake eater. I also separated accounts and put her on a strick allowance. No way was she gonna use my money to buy stuff for APs. This action caused an immediate reaction and the A's ended shortly after. Not only was she dependent on me as a SAHM, but in our state if caught cheating she could lose any settlement benefits if at fault.
> 
> In order for you to drop the suit she must do the following:
> 
> ...


My bestfriend cheated on her husband multiple times and for years he put up with it. Finally he did what you did, after having enough of her not respecting their marriage. In some ways I would say I was a toxic friend, but not in the way that I helped her cheat. I always knew when she cheated but I didn't allow her to discuss it with me. She always knew that I wouldn't tell her husband but she also knew that I loved him enough to not lie if he asked.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Grey said:


> My bestfriend cheated on her husband multiple times and for years he put up with it. Finally he did what you did, after having enough of her not respecting their marriage. In some ways I would say I was a toxic friend, but not in the way that I helped her cheat. I always knew when she cheated but I didn't allow her to discuss it with me. She always knew that I wouldn't tell her husband but she also knew that I loved him enough to not lie if he asked.


That sounds like a pretty ****ty friend to put you in that spot multiple times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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