# 3 long years later - am back (input, please).



## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Here I am again, back. Married 25 years, two teenagers. I am posting one of my older posts from 2015 below if anyone would like the back story. It is now 2018, three years later, and here I am, BACK. For the same issues. Nothing has gotten any better. The issues go back before 2015, that's just when I first started posting. In addition to the initial issues, the last three there have been a lot of anger management issues on his end, both with me and the kids, though he has gotten it under control with the kids as he has seen what it has done to them (both required counseling and it was determined the anger was part of it). For me, he just doesn't see how the anger issues impact me and says *I* am what makes him that way. Between the anger and the intimacy issues, it has been a long 3 years.

I have been going back to the same counselor I have seen off and on since 2012 about this very thing. Husband went with me once back in 2012 and refused to go again, and refused us going to a counselor of his choosing. I asked him as recently as December 2017. Finally, after seeing more years go by, people getting older, kids growing up, nothing changing, I mapped out a plan as was suggested here. Looked at what it might look like if I were to leave. And in the heat of an outburst, I told him I did want to leave and wanted us to get a divorce. He didn't ask me to stay, didn't say he would make changes, didn't act like it bothered him at all. In fact, it was quite the opposite. He spent the weekend creating spreadsheets and detailed plans on what we needed to do. He SAID he didn't want this, but yet he never said any of the above, just kept working on the practical matters.

Earlier post:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...t-being-able-take-anymore-called-child-3.html


So my questions are:


1. What does his response about asking for a divorce mean? Is this the final sign that I just need to let this relationship go?

2. Am I unreasonable for wanting him to go to bed with me at the same time a few nights a week? We don't have different work schedules/shift work or anything like that. He just prefers to be up as a night owl. Says it is the only time he has to decompress and sometimes catch up on work left from the work day (I go to sleep around 10, and he is usually up until at least 2 - so he has four hours. I keep asking why I can't have 30 minutes of that). He is 110% unwilling to budge on this - even if I tell him it is the most important thing to me out of ANYTHING that I might ask or need. His response? I need to be willing to NOT ask him to do that, as his 'night hours' are very important to HIM and if I truly respect his feelings, I won't ask. I'm at a loss.

3. The ONLY solution he has proposed is coming to lay with me while I go to sleep a few nights a week, BUT.............I have to be the one to ask. I'm not opposed to asking, but this whole thing is about why he very rarely approaches me. Is it wrong to want him to take the lead to demonstrate that it is coming from the heart and not just because I ask? I have asked some, and he always has complied, but it never leads to anything more than him coming down just to lay there until I go to sleep (he says kids could come in at any time).

4. An example: I knew I would be going out of town for 4 days so I kept reminding him about a week before thinking he might want some time together since it had already been several months since the last time. Nothing. When I came back, I thought maybe he would have missed me and there would be some time. Nothing. I ask about it, and he says if it was that important to me, *I* should have been the one to approach him. Is he right? Am I wrong?


Unbiased opinions, please. And I know I am back after three years and in the same boat. I totally get that. Just thought during those 3 years something might change. I just don't know what else I can try at this point. 

Soooo lost right now. I think I know my answer, just wanting to hear unbiased thoughts to see if I am on track.

Sunshin


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## eagle4ever2016 (Mar 17, 2018)

You have been together for 25 years will you sacrifice all of that because you man changed a little. Where all the good times you spent together are where all the bed sharing moments where all the sacrifice you did for the kids. And niw just simply you wanna leave i am shocked.
If he is drunk all the time or cheatinging on you or beating you or the kids or not providing the house needs then I will tell you that your thought may sound logic. And regarding sex life let him have a vacation time with you only not the tv not srippers not shows just you and you will enjoy each other very easy going life. God bless

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

eagle4ever2016 said:


> You have been together for 25 years will you sacrifice all of that because you man changed a little. Where all the good times you spent together are where all the bed sharing moments where all the sacrifice you did for the kids. And niw just simply you wanna leave i am shocked.
> If he is drunk all the time or cheatinging on you or beating you or the kids or not providing the house needs then I will tell you that your thought may sound logic. And regarding sex life let him have a vacation time with you only not the tv not srippers not shows just you and you will enjoy each other very easy going life. God bless
> 
> Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk



It's not so much that he changed a little.............I don't know if the anger issues and verbal assaults are worse than the intimacy issues or vice-versa. It's a lot more than the fact that he has changed (or not changed) a little. I started keeping a journal of all of the angry outbursts. Some of them I was brought to tears. After reading countless self-help books, I learned that some of this is borderline emotional abuse. I've even spoken to the domestic violence professionals on a couple of occasions and they agreed as well. My mother has witnessed some of the outbursts as has his, as well as my two siblings. I am not just making this up. They have all seen it. Again, not sure which is worse - the low level of intimacy or the anger. This definitely is much, much more than he has changed a little - or not changed a little, depending on how one looks at it. Sorry if I wasn't more clear on that.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

eagle4ever2016 said:


> You have been together for 25 years will you sacrifice all of that because you man changed a little. Where all the good times you spent together are where all the bed sharing moments where all the sacrifice you did for the kids. And niw just simply you wanna leave i am shocked.
> If he is drunk all the time or cheatinging on you or beating you or the kids or not providing the house needs then I will tell you that your thought may sound logic. And regarding sex life let him have a vacation time with you only not the tv not srippers not shows just you and you will enjoy each other very easy going life. God bless


You didn't read her thread did you? SMH


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

His response sounds as though he's been waiting for you to initiate a divorce.


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## FalCod (Dec 6, 2017)

Tough situation. I'm sorry that you are going through this.

It seems unlikely that he's going to change. I'm not sure how much benefit there is to continue to work on that. I'd think through your other options. I think they fall into a few buckets - prepare to leave soon, wait three more years until your youngest goes off to college (or whatever they do at 18), or prepare to stay indefinitely but under different terms.

If you are going to leave soon, start by consulting an attorney. Understand your financial situation. Understand the custody situation. Reach out to people you trust for support.

If you are going to wait, you should still start to prepare. Get your financial house in order. Rekindle your career to the extent possible. Start emotionally preparing.

If you are going to stay indefinitely, you've got to figure out how to make the situation work. Maybe that's an open restatement of the situation. Give up on expectations for him to change, but let him know what you now plan to do. Not what you expect from him - he's going to continue to withhold that. Maybe it's x number of nights out each week with friends or family. Maybe it's openly taking care of your physical needs without including him. I can't think of how staying will be anything but unpleasant, but it is the course some people feel compelled to do for social or religious reasons. If you go that route, focus on how to make it work as well as possible knowing his limitations.

Once again, I'm very sorry that you are experiencing this. Don't blame yourself. Some people are just cold.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Apparently, the board is acting up. It is never a good idea to tell another member to 'shut up' as it can get you bounced out on your ass.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

So, now you know that if you threaten divorce to someone who is pretty much ready for divorce, he will proceed as though you are divorcing.

Threatening divorce is no joking or light matter. And as you say, things have not improved or changed for years, so maybe divorce is the change that you both need.

I went back and read your older post and I'm simply amazed that you would stick around in a marriage where your needs have not been met for so long.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

OP, I have read your threads. It is obvious to me that your H (for whatever reasons) does not care one wit about your needs or at the very least will always prioritize himself and what he wants over you. He is not a husband rather he is a co-parent and roommate that does what HE wants to do in any given moment. His actions over the last 13+ years speak to this; his words are worthless. Maybe it’s the low T or maybe this is just who he is … _the why does not matter _because he is unwilling to listen, compromise or change the situation. If I recall correctly, he has said many times that he thinks you are entirely at fault and the only one with a problem … that is _contempt and manipulation_ on his part in case you didn’t realize.

For your own sanity and emotional well-being you need to STOP … stop trying to fix this situation (you can’t do it by yourself in any case) and stop engaging him … I would implement the 180 with him and only engage about the children and “family business”. Do things for you … nurture your own hobbies and leisure activities … let him fend for himself. Do this for a few months so you can decompress, stop agonizing and decide what you want to do long term regarding the marriage. Be like an outside objective observer of the marital relationship. Step back, observe, make your decision then make your plans.

I am sorry for what you are experiencing, it absolutely sucks. I was in a similar type of marriage while twisting in the wind in agony over it. I can tell you that it is not good for your health. I divorced and have no regrets but you have to decide for yourself if you want to let go and grab your own peace and happiness.

Let go of the rope, for your own sake. 

P.S. Everything you are asking for in your marriage is entirely reasonable.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

OP, see an attorney to make sure that your rights are protected. It has been too long for waiting for you. Your husband is ready to let you go. He is waiting for you to decide. If you can't live in this situation in your marriage, you should move on with your life. Sorry you are here.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It looks to me like, from your perspective, you are a voice crying in the desert for love and affection, while from his perspective, you two are in a power struggle.

He doesn't want to come to bed with you and he doesn't want you telling him what to do. He seems happy to call your bluff on any topic and has now done it regarding divorce.

Take a deep breath and get the divorce started. I would also 180 to help the detachment process. You two are so very much not on the same page. You sound incompatible in your basic needs and he is unwilling to truly compromise to address the incompatibility.

Don't waste your life this way. Life is short. Truly.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

LilMissSunshine said:


> What does his response about asking for a divorce mean? Is this the final sign that I just need to let this relationship go?


He doesn't love you. Heck, it sounds like he doesn't even like you. His response? He's glad you finally took the initiative to end it. Sounds like he's been done for a long time. Sorry. Harsh, but true.



LilMissSunshine said:


> Am I unreasonable for wanting him to go to bed with me at the same time a few nights a week? ... He is 110% unwilling to budge on this - even if I tell him it is the most important thing to me out of ANYTHING that I might ask or need.


He just doesn't care. The more important question you should be asking yourself is why you are willing to denigrate and subjugate yourself to so desperately want an uncaring, unloving man sharing your bed. REALLY. YOU NEED TO ASK YOURSELF WHY YOU EVEN WANT THIS MAN SHARING THE AIR YOU BREATHE.



LilMissSunshine said:


> Is it wrong to want him to take the lead to demonstrate that it is coming from the heart and not just because I ask?


You are beating a dead horse. Come from the heart - HUH???? He has amply demonstrated that he isn't interested in being married to you. Again, you need to ask yourself why you are remaining in loveless-marriage-hell. You don't have to be this desperate. You really, truly don't.



LilMissSunshine said:


> I knew I would be going out of town for 4 days so I kept reminding him about a week before thinking he might want some time together since it had already been several months since the last time. Nothing. When I came back, I thought maybe he would have missed me and there would be some time. Nothing. I ask about it, and he says if it was that important to me, *I* should have been the one to approach him. Is he right? Am I wrong?


This really isn't a matter of who is right or who is wrong. DO YOU THINK YOU ARE RIGHT? You are, for reasons I simply cannot discern, trying to glue onto this man's character attributes he does not seem to possess. I mean, c'mon .... THREE YEARS LATER and you are still sitting around with a man who is indifferent to you at best.



LilMissSunshine said:


> ... I know I am back after three years and in the same boat. I totally get that. Just thought during those 3 years something might change.


When you keep hoping and wishing he'll change and he doesn't, that should tell you all you need to know. As I stated in another thread, wishing is for children; taking action is for adults. I'm sorry you are still stuck in this situation, but the only solution I see from where I'm sitting is to pull the plug and move on with your life.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

red sonja said:


> op, i have read your threads. It is obvious to me that your h (for whatever reasons) *does not care one wit about your needs or at the very least will always prioritize himself and what he wants over you. * he is not a husband rather he is a co-parent and roommate that does what he wants to do in any given moment. His actions over the last 13+ years speak to this; his words are worthless. Maybe it’s the low t or maybe this is just who he is … _the why does not matter _because he is unwilling to listen, compromise or change the situation. If i recall correctly, he has said many times that he thinks you are entirely at fault and the only one with a problem … that is _contempt and manipulation_ on his part in case you didn’t realize.
> 
> *for your own sanity and emotional well-being you need to stop … stop trying to fix this situation *(you can’t do it by yourself in any case) and stop engaging him … i would implement the 180 with him and only engage about the children and “family business”. Do things for you … nurture your own hobbies and leisure activities … let him fend for himself. Do this for a few months so you can decompress, stop agonizing and decide what you want to do long term regarding the marriage. Be like an outside objective observer of the marital relationship. Step back, observe, make your decision then make your plans.
> 
> ...


this!


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

eagle4ever2016 said:


> You have been together for 25 years will you sacrifice all of that because you man changed a little. Where all the good times you spent together are where all the bed sharing moments where all the sacrifice you did for the kids. And niw just simply you wanna leave i am shocked.
> If he is drunk all the time or cheatinging on you or beating you or the kids or not providing the house needs then I will tell you that your thought may sound logic. And regarding sex life let him have a vacation time with you only not the tv not srippers not shows just you and you will enjoy each other very easy going life. God bless
> 
> Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk


LOL.

Thanks for the comic relief. Good lord.

The Sunken Costs Fallacy comes to mind regarding your marriage. Even though it sounds horrible like it's basically on life support, you probably feel that you've invested too much time, effort and sweat equity into it and you just can't justify leaving it.

So you stay in misery year after year after year because you can't bring yourself to give it the mercy killing it so desperately needs.

Not sure what the payoff is in wasting year after year of your life but there *must *be one for you because you're still doing it.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

YES, there is so much that I agree with that has been said above. And WHY do I keep doing it? 

#1: First is the kids - which I see what has been said here and maybe my thinking was faulty on that. It truly cannot be good for them seeing all of the anger issues and fighting. They don't know about the other intimacy issues - how could they? That's more of a private matter. But I see the point about the kids.

#2: Our history. 25 years together. That's a longggg time! And I get nostalgic looking at pictures on the wall, things I will randomly find that go back to our early days and remind me that we did have some really good times. And I keep holding on and holding on thinking those days might come back. Is that unreasonable to think they might?

#3: Finances. I work as self-employed contractor and work is up and down up and down. And I have no benefits, meaning no insurance if it weren't for H. My option to that would be to start looking for a "regular" job, I suppose?

THESE are the reasons why I keep staying. Someone tell me what's wrong with this line of thinking and/or if these reasons justify continuing to hang on. I have to say it has helped me just getting some of this out and telling someone else. But ultimately I know it is up to me to "fix" this situation - I'm just not sure I like the answer of what I need to do ( I DO love him. He is a good man. And 25 years ((( It's just SO hard to know the right answer. Why can't I get THROUGH to him??


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Have you considered that he may be wondering why he can't get through to you? What more does he have to do before you'll realize that he doesn't want to change?


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> Have you considered that he may be wondering why he can't get through to you? What more does he have to do before you'll realize that he doesn't want to change?


YES - I ask myself this question. I just cannot wrap my brain around him NOT wanting that aspect of our relationship. I just don't see how that is possible for ANY married person to not want. I know he doesn't WANT to change - that has been made abundantly clear. I keep hoping maybe he will see that sometimes we DO change for the other person even if it's not what we want, if we truly want them to be happy and it's over something THAT important to them (I don't ask for change in ANYTHING else - just that - otherwise I am of the mindset that people shouldn't have to change their entire person to appease someone else. But for something THAT important to the other person? I would WANT to do that for my partner).


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## Lukedog (Nov 18, 2015)

Hey sunshine! Sorry to say....you are not going to get anything through to him. He just does not really care about your needs and wants at all. He is complacently happy with where he is and who he is and he is not going to change for anyone (as per his words). You two sound like your becoming incompatible as far as what you both want out of the relationship and marriage. Divorce is probably only option. 

No...it is not healthy for the kids to see the unhappy dynamic in your marriage. They see and sense what is going on. It's not a good model for their future relationships. One of the things that I had promised myself that I would never do to my children would be to divorce (I was a child of two divorces by the time I was in 9th grade, me and my mom had to move a lot and I went to 4 different elementary schools) when they were young and impressionable....where they needed a good stable home and environment....and two loving parents to raise them right. I really regret making that promise to myself (and silently to my kid). Things may have turned out a lot different for him if I had the gumption to leave. Your kids will be ok should you decide to divorce. 

Go see an attorney to see what your rights are and what you are entitled to, then start making your exit plan. Your husband says he doesn't want a divorce but his actions say otherwise. You may be entitled to alimony for a few years and he may be required to keep you on his insurance for a few years also. Yes...you may have to look for another job where you can bring a steady income and get health insurance but that might be good to get out of the house and meet new people and look for better opportunities. If he has started to look at what life would like without you then you can too.


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## purplepwr53 (Mar 20, 2018)

I had this problem-stay up to late get 4-5 hours of sleep and was working 28 days per month. Caused me to get depression. Happens a lot to people like in military who work 4 on 4 off or shift workers. I've been married for 27 years and most of those I always went to bed a couple hours after my wife. It hasn't been until the last 2 years due to a job change that we now go to bed at the same time. I get what you are saying too. We came close to a divorce 3 years ago-due to my drinking. Divorce can be scary to think about especially after being married so long. Just looking at how people date these days is so alien to when I last was. My wife makes twice as much as I do-hasn't always been that way but that is scary too. With your kids, if hubby spends so much time alone, how much quality time does he spend with them? The same sex parent has a huge influence on their children. If all they are seeing is mostly conflict where are the positives they see? 

I made a change and my marriage is better then it has been in years. It doesn't sound like your husband is interested in changing and you have tried many times and asked many times for a change with no response. When we close to ending our marriage, my wife actually told me she didn't love me anymore. She said she would always "love"me as I was the father of our children but she had no other feelings for me. That was very hard to hear and even harder to live and sleep in the same bed with someone who said that. It sounds like you have similar thoughts.

The fact that he doesn't seem to be bothered by your ultimatum seems to me to say he is no longer invested in you or the family. Sometimes you just have to admit defeat. It sounds like you have tried really hard to save your marriage and to have stayed and suffered an additional 3 years must have been very painful. But you have plenty of time to start over and find a better match for yourself if that's what you want. There are a lot of people here who will tell you should keep trying but I say you have tried enough and it is okay to stop. There's no need to live a life of misery when there could be a perfect match out there just waiting to find you.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

LilMissSunshine said:


> And WHY do I keep doing it?
> 
> #1: First is the kids
> 
> ...


Okay. Let me be upfront here and tell you that since you asked the questions, I'm going to give you my answers. You probably won't like them, but here goes ...

You are doing damage to your kids. They know you have a lousy marriage. Trust me, they DO. I wish my parents had split up years before they actually did. It was awful growing up with so much tension in the air. I generally stayed in my room to avoid them. In the end? I never respected, or even liked, either one of my parents. They were selfish, deeply flawed people who stayed together for all the wrong reasons.

You had good times. The operative word here is "HAD." As in the past. As in that train has long left the station. You are in the exact same place you were three years ago. You know that the good times aren't coming back. And the reason you are really staying with your husband is because you are afraid to be alone. Sadly, it sounds like you are willing to stay with anyone who has a measurable body temperature and shows some signs of life rather than realize who you are. And to realize who you are would mean you'd be alone with yourself.

ASK YOURSELF WHAT IT IS THAT MAKES YOU STAY IN A LOVELESS MARRIAGE RATHER THAN TO BE WITH ALONE WITH YOURSELF.

You are an adult. Lesson #1: We cannot, do not, and never will control another person. We don't possess the power to make anyone change. You can't get through to your husband because he doesn't give a crap. He's just cruising along for the ride. Maybe he's as terrified to be alone as you. Maybe he's just one of those people who backs into and out of relationships; he lacks the motivation to do anything else.

As far as health insurance, go get a regular job or shop around for coverage for yourself. See, you are basing you life on WHAT IF rather than WHAT IS. A good family law attorney could help you out. It would behoove you to meet with one. Since you have a marriage of more than 20 years duration, you stand to get a decent settlement. 

So perhaps you should quit driving yourself nuts and look at WHAT IS. Or, you can just keep living in a miserable, dead-end marriage and come back here in another three years stuck in the same place. I don't get it ... life is so damn short. Your life. Your choices. Best of luck.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Thanks to all who shared words - all have been read and I have been reading and re-reading them over the last week. I know this is all on me. And I am coming from a place of fear is why I stay. Fear of not being able to make it on my own, fear of finances, fear of what it will do to my kids. But - you know what? I am gradually working through each one of those and am working out a timetable in my head. I think I am going to post a separate post about my plan, as I have specific questions and it is a different topic than this - now that I know what I need to do (this post was about not knowing what to do). I truly am and will continue to be scared. But I can do this. What choice do I have except to stay miserable and status-quo, right?? Thanks to all who shared input and wisdom.

Sunshine


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## LTCNurse (Feb 5, 2018)

You can do this, LilMissSunshine. You WILL survive and thrive outside of this marriage and so will your children.


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## Old Newlywed (Mar 31, 2018)

I only skimmed so if I missed something, please excuse me. I see why you want to stay and why you want to go, but, what do you hope to achieve when all is said and done? Do you think life will be better? Do you believe you will find the kind of love you want? If a man goes to bed at the same time as you do, do you think that will make you happy? I ask these questions in all sincerity and love. I've asked myself the same type of questions. 

I have been divorced twice and had many failed relationships. I find that there's always something that seems unbearable. But it's really not, because there's always something.

The term emotional abuse is only abuse if it gets you all messed up. Tough love here: don't let it. It's that simple as long as you keep practicing detachment (the Buddhist kind, not the dictionay kind).

I say all this with pure empathy because I've been where you are.

XO


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