# Not sure where to go from here



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I turned my wife down last night. I'm just so tired of it all. Well, I should back up. We've had a bad dynamic for a year or so now. If I initiate she rejects then I withdraw and then she initiates. Because of that I haven't initiated in many months. She had a hysterectomy in November and we started having sex again just before Christmas. 

Basically it feels like she's rationing me. Once a week she initiates. But we never kiss. She can't stand it if I kiss her neck or ears. Recently she's complained that her breasts are too sensitive so I have to avoid them too. Sex has become sanitized, stale and disappointing. Emotionally I feel completely detached. 

So Friday I went out of my comfort zone in the morning and asked for a bj. She laughed it off. That night she initiated. We had sex, but I was really disappointed because I wanted a bj and regular sex as I described above is very unsatisfying to me. I actually, for the first time in years, let myself finish without getting her off. Then just rolled over and went to sleep. Usually I feel close to her for a few days after sex but that time I didn't really feel anything. 

Saturday I was teaching a class so I left early. That day I told her how I feel via text. I let her have it in the same way I post here (ie harsher than usual). I slept on the couch Saturday night. I stayed up until after she was asleep Sunday. Then last night I went to bed with her and turned her down when she initiated. I feel bad about that and she was mad and hurt. I just don't know where to go from here. I'm tired of it all. I'm having a hard time even staying erect with the mediocre sex. It seems like every move I try to make she fights against.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

First, I have to pick my jaw up off the floor that she doesn't like to have her neck or ears kissed. She may be the first woman I know who doesn't melt with that!

From the posts you've made here and there, I get the feeling she needs a lot of control, but at the same time resents the control she gets. Do you see her that way too.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> First, I have to pick my jaw up off the floor that she doesn't like to have her neck or ears kissed. She may be the first woman I know who doesn't melt with that!
> 
> From the posts you've made here and there, I get the feeling she needs a lot of control, but at the same time resents the control she gets. Do you see her that way too.



She says the neck and ear thing is "too intense". 

She does seem to want to be in control. I want her to be more submissive which makes me just feel we're not compatible on a fundamental level. If I smack her butt she feels the need to smack mine. If I tie her up she wants to tie me up so we're even. The reason she sites for the infrequent bj's is because she doesn't get anything out of it herself. Doing it solely for me is a completely foreign concept.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I agree with your wife about not getting anything out of giving a BJ, other than knowing your man feels your love. Will she allow you to return the favor after a BJ?

There is a major power struggle going on with your wife. The "keeping it even" thing doesn't work in marriage. Things tend to even out eventually but my dad used to say "marriage is never 50/50, it's 90/10 and you take turns on who is 90 and who is 10."

The question to pose, does she enjoy being in control or does she need to be in control? It sounds like your wife is covertly hostile at times. Passive aggressive? Boat load of resentments? What's her deal?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

How does she show you her love in other ways? How do you acknowledge those things?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

She has let me return the favor 2x in 23 years together. And always claims she's allowing it for my sake. 

When we first started dating she was living on her own for the first time. Making more money than me, I was in the service. After we married we both worked and I went to college. Her grandmother told her I was a "good investment". She shuddered at that. She highly valued her independence and contribution. When I graduated she got laid off and was pregnant with our first soon after. She became a sahm by default and she didn't like it. She was kind of lost. Meanwhile I moved up the ladder and eventually made partner. I think she has a great life but I do wonder sometimes if she resents it. She never wanted to become her mother or grandmother, but then she did and her sister became a high flying career woman which was my wife's dream.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

So she doesn't work outside the home and you think maybe she resents her lost career chances? That sounds very plausible. Have you two talked about her entering the career market again? What does she say?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

After reading your posts again I am struck by just how insensitive and demanding your wife is appearing through your words. Granted, you speak only about the problems and not the good parts that would soften the problems. I can't help but wonder if she is aware of just how unloving she comes off to you?

The game playing, rejecting your advances in favor of only having sex when she initiates... Rejecting being kissed in places that feel too intense, it's like she is purposely keeping you at arms length. Why is she doing this? Has your relationship ever felt connected and loving? 

Have you guys ever done the 5 love languages or the emotional needs questionnaires? If she were to post here, could you guess at what she might complain about? (I ask this because my husband is so closed off I could not guess at all what he would post about other than his wife's mood swings) if your wife someone who will talk about what's going on with her? Or does she insist and pretend everything is fine?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

She would say that it's not just her, it's both of us. I'm sure there's truth in that.

She does a lot of things that are loving. She does a lot of the household stuff, cooks, gets on me about staying healthy. She likes to cuddle. Sometimes she'll hold my hand in the car. Of course it was much better before kids. When we first started living together she worked swing shift and I worked days, so we didn't see each other very much. Mostly weekends, and I would come home during the week at lunch. We got along much better when our time was limited.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

When you first got together how was she with the ear and neck kisses? Did she complain about her breasts being too sensitive to touch then as well?

Those things stuck out to me bc when I was done being w/my ex and shutting down on him,those are the first touches I rejected and used the reason "too intense" or "too sensitive" to keep him away.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Just sounds like a sexual styling mismatch, to me. Neither of you want to be submissive but you both want the other one to be submissive.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

I dont think my wife likes it when I kiss her neck. Hell she doesnt like it when I kiss her period.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> When you first got together how was she with the ear and neck kisses? Did she complain about her breasts being too sensitive to touch then as well?
> 
> Those things stuck out to me bc when I was done being w/my ex and shutting down on him,those are the first touches I rejected and used the reason "too intense" or "too sensitive" to keep him away.


It wasn't a problem in the past, but I'm not sure I can identify when it changed exactly. The neck thing was kind of gradual. As for her breasts, that's just been the last couple weeks and she thinks it's temporary. Cowgirl and breast play has always been her favorite way to get off until recently. We both wonder if it has to do with her surgery.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> We both wonder if it has to do with her surgery.


Did they take out her ovaries too?


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Let's review...

You withdraw when she rejects... bad.

You wait for her to initiate... bad.

You had sex and then didn't make sure she was taken care of... bad.

You "talked" about it via text... bad.

You slept on the couch... bad.

You turned her down for sex because you were butthurt... bad.

Seriously, you are making a lot of bad moves here. Every one of those are guaranteed to make sure your sex life dies (if it isn't dead already.

Point by point:

If she rejects you, move on. No hurt, no resentment. What exactly do you hope to gain by resentment? That she'll pity you with more duty sex?

Initiate, initiate, initiate. If you don't weeks, months,years from now when you are having a serious conversation do you want to hear "well, you never ask for sex so I figured you weren't interested." No. Make her say "no" so you can point out "I asked for sex 7 times over the past three weeks and you refused each time."

Not taking care of your wife in bed? Why should she have sex with you if that happens??? What's in it for her?

Texting? No. Face-to-face conversations like adults. Leave the texting to the kids.

You slept on the couch. Not an acceptable thing to do. It's YOUR bedroom, too. Make her sleep with you or let her decide to sleep elsewhere.

Turning her down for sex is just wrong (unless you are tired, etc...). You're going to hear "well, I asked for sex two nights ago and you weren't interested!"

Look... I know what you did was out of frustration but you need to stay in control. Each of these things just work against you.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Thound said:


> I dont think my wife likes it when I kiss her neck. Hell she doesnt like it when I kiss her period.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You kiss her period? Well, I have never...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

CharlieParker said:


> Did they take out her ovaries too?



No. Left the ovaries and cervix.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> It wasn't a problem in the past, but I'm not sure I can identify when it changed exactly. The neck thing was kind of gradual. As for her breasts, that's just been the last couple weeks and she thinks it's temporary. Cowgirl and breast play has always been her favorite way to get off until recently. We both wonder if it has to do with her surgery.


that's definitely a possibility.It could be making her hormones go completely crazy which could alter her mood regarding many things as well. 
I went through a sort of menopause phase after my surgery even though they left an ovary. Talk about shifts in mood and desires! wow!


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

It does sound like she has built a huge wall of resentment against you, WOM. If you think that she wanted an engaging career, could she go back to school now to train for something that interests her? Of course there is no guarantee that a good job would tear down that wall, but if you supported her dreams, perhaps she would want to let you in again.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> When you first got together how was she with the ear and neck kisses? Did she complain about her breasts being too sensitive to touch then as well?
> 
> Those things stuck out to me bc when I was done being w/my ex and shutting down on him,those are the first touches I rejected and used the reason "too intense" or "too sensitive" to keep him away.


I agree with this--when I was emotionally shut down to my husband due to boatloads of resentment, I could not stand him to caress me gently, lovingly, erotically AT ALL. I'd give the "too sensitive" or "ticklish" excuse, but, in truth, it made my skin crawl. I'm not saying that is how your wife feels, but it sounds so familiar. 

WOM, I admit I have tended to see your attitude as bitter and "woe as me," but I don't think I appreciated the level to which your wife has shut you out. I'm guessing she is carrying resentment (maybe from feeling disappointed in herself, maybe from issues she has with you, who knows, and it really doesn't matter if even she can't point to the cause.) The "tit for tat" scorekeeping is evidence to me that she doesn't want to see you get something that she isn't getting . . . again. She feels cheated by life, some how, some way. And she is disappointed in you, some how, some way.

As AP pointed out, she seems intent on making sure she maintains control. This, to me, is an indication that she doesn't trust you emotionally. She can't tell you how she really feels, she can't tell you that she's disappointed or pissed for things that happened in the past, and she can't be honest with you now, either--because the price is too high. Your reaction would make it not worth it. She doesn't believe she can take the risk of hurting you and not damage your love and esteem for her, such as it is. So she stuffs her true emotions. Stuffed emotions turn into resentment. 

IMO, getting her to recognize and release the resentment--either in IC or with you (if you can gain her trust) is key, as is learning how to make sure they don't build up again.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Resentment or mismatch, hmm?

From your other post, perhaps out of context, you seem to have a fairly high and specific standards and expectations (I don't mean that in a bad way, you are who you are), do you think she capable of meeting them? Has she ever? Did you guys ever really hit it off or click in the bedroom?


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> First, I have to pick my jaw up off the floor that she doesn't like to have her neck or ears kissed. She may be the first woman I know who doesn't melt with that!
> 
> From the posts you've made here and there, I get the feeling she needs a lot of control, but at the same time resents the control she gets. Do you see her that way too.


Weird as it is, sometimes I don't like my neck and ears kissed.

I have a bit of "slobber phobia" and my husband is well... a slobberer. 

I'm over it for the most part. But it has taken years. For a long time I had to fight back feelings of "ew" when we were kissing. Although I've never made it noticeable to him. I just sucked it up and went on.

We've talked about it in the past, but not much has changed.

Most days it's okay, but every once in a while he will be more wet then usual. If that is the case then I will discreetly climb on top while we are kissing so I don't feel like I'm drowning. Or maybe I will distract his attention away from kissing.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Deep breath*

WOM,
I totally disagree with Chris T. It is BS to have to initiate 3-4 times to get one yes. It teaches her that her feelings/desires matter and yours don't. 

I do think your W has issues with control, empathy and selfishness.

For example, she could be kind to you when you initiate and say: Would it be ok if we connect tomorrow? 

Instead she rejects and then keeps total control over if/when she chooses to reciprocate. 

Maybe a mix of empathy and firmness would help. Between each of the points below you ought give her a bit of time to say what's on her mind. Even if you don't agree with her responses, don't let her derail you. 

Empathy
I know the surgery has been a hard thing for you and I've tried to be compassionate. And I want you to keep telling me when certain types of touch that normally feel good, don't feel good. I don't want to touch you in ways that feel bad. 

Firmness
I know it feels bad to be rejected. And I know you felt bad the other night when I turned you down. Imagine if I turned you down repeatedly. When that happens, it starts to feel worse. Because at a certain point it feels like your partner is rejecting you as opposed to simply declining sex at the moment. 

From now on, when EITHER OF US initiates, the other can either say yes, or ask to connect the next day. 

Power struggles and rejection are damaging our marriage. I feel like you are trying to ration sex to once a week. Imagine how you would feel if I gave you a bare bones spending budget and rejected any extra requests you made. 

We have a choice. We can make more effort to show each other kindness and compassion, or we can risk losing the love and commitment we have for one another. 




WorkingOnMe said:


> No. Left the ovaries and cervix.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

WOM, sounds like your wife has a number of similarities to mine. My wife doesn't like to be kissed on the neck or ears unless she's really turned on. Also when it comes to the breasts it can be hit or miss where half the time they are off limits and the other times she wants them touched. Nothing kills a moment faster than being told up front "I don't want to be touched here, here or there"... 

Unlike your situation, my wife still has her uterus, but recently she had to have her thyroid levels adjusted. She was out of kilter with her thyroid for 7 to 8 months last year, which drove me batty.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

TheCuriousWife said:


> Weird as it is, sometimes I don't like my neck and ears kissed.
> 
> I have a bit of "slobber phobia" and my husband is well... a slobberer.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, I remember your thread about that. You really are adorable you know!


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

*Re: Deep breath*



MEM11363 said:


> WOM,
> I totally disagree with Chris T. It is BS to have to initiate 3-4 times to get one yes. It teaches her that her feelings/desires matter and yours don't.
> 
> I do think your W has issues with control, empathy and selfishness.
> ...


The point of continuing to initiate is:

First, if you want it, you have to ask for it. Plain and simple.

Second, a record of her rejection is necessary for the discussion later.

Third, waiting for her to initiate is passive, giving control to her. While rejection also lets her control the act of trying to initiate shows you don't accept giving her all the power.

Fourth, actually attempting to initiate may increase sexual activity. You can't hit the ball if you don't swing.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Had a discussion about resentments. I had to drag it out of her, but she says back in 1996 or 1997 I told her once during an argument that I felt she was holding me back.

I don't remember saying it, and I apologized.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Holy cats! Maybe tell her that if it had been a kid instead of an argument, it would be out of the house by now!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

If you really want a submissive female, WOM, I don't think your wife is it. It just isn't in her nature. She is an equal marriage kind of gal.

But you have stayed with her a long time, so there is some satisfaction there for you. What do you get, or what have you gotten, out of it? Is it worth staying for?

What are you hoping for? That she will become submissive? She's not, WOM. 

And I am glad to see you telling your story. It is good to get it out. Things can only get better when you are honest and open.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Holy cats! Maybe tell her that if it had been a kid instead of an argument, it would be out of the house by now!


:lol:

Fozzy, that it! That's the statute of limitations on a resentment!

WOM, it seems pretty clear that there is a very bad pattern of lack of full disclosure and open communication in your house. I'm sure you have seen me say this to other men...

It's your house, it's your relationship, do not allow yourself to be shut down. Get to the bottom of this by asking, by insisting she come out with the full and honest heart felt truth of what the hell is going on.

Why the power struggle?
Why does she shut your down and control sex?
Why are your needs less important than hers?
Does she feel your love for her, if so how?
Does she know how you feel her love for you? If not what can she do?

Keep asking, keep asking, keep probing, keep listening until you really feel confident that you not only understand what is going on with her but also feel confident in the way to work through it. This may hurt, it may hurt both of you. But if you want to stay together happily, the bandaid that's been preventing honesty has to come off!


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm guessing at the date. She referenced it to a job I had and a co-worker / boss (you said it when you were working with that guy x). I apologized and she said 'we all say things we don't mean sometimes'. So I said, that's true but we don't all hold onto things other people say for 20 years.

I remember that time frame. I had some resentments back then myself. When I was a freshman in college she really really wanted to buy a house. She had more income than I did, but I had the GI bill / VA loan. So we bought a house with no money down. Once I graduated, I ended up taking a job with a 4 hour round trip commute. And yes, I felt trapped by the house that we had no equity in. Couldn't sell, couldn't move, new baby, she being recently laid off our income was half what it had been and meanwhile I'm driving 2 hours each way to work. I eventually decided to leave that job earlier than I otherwise would have. I basically had to start my career over 2 years into it so that I could work closer to home and my growing family.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm guessing at the date. She referenced it to a job I had and a co-worker / boss (you said it when you were working with that guy x). I apologized and she said 'we all say things we don't mean sometimes'. So I said, that's true but we don't all hold onto things other people say for 20 years.
> 
> I remember that time frame. I had some resentments back then myself. When I was a freshman in college she really really wanted to buy a house. She had more income than I did, but I had the GI bill / VA loan. So we bought a house with no money down. Once I graduated, I ended up taking a job with a 4 hour round trip commute. And yes, I felt trapped by the house that we had no equity in. Couldn't sell, couldn't move, new baby, she being recently laid off our income was half what it had been and meanwhile I'm driving 2 hours each way to work. I eventually decided to leave that job earlier than I otherwise would have. I basically had to start my career over 2 years into it so that I could work closer to home and my growing family.


So you both felt trapped? You both were trapped by being a parent and buying a house that in hindsight, might not have been the best decision at the time. You put in a huge amount of daily effort to make it work, but she didn't recognize it. She gave up her hopes of a career but her happiness (assuming here) with the baby kept you from recognizing her effort to make it work?

Do you guys discuss those days ever? Do you think she sees how you both just kind of fell into the pattern of putting one foot in front of the other, in terms of the relationship, without watching where it was going?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jld said:


> If you really want a submissive female, WOM, I don't think your wife is it. It just isn't in her nature. She is an equal marriage kind of gal.
> 
> But you have stayed with her a long time, so there is some satisfaction there for you. What do you get, or what have you gotten, out of it? Is it worth staying for?
> 
> ...


I agree that woman filled with resentment isn't a good candidate for submission, but rooting out her resentments, and WOM getting rid of his, would go a long way to making it possible. I am an optimist, though I like to think realistic, and think anything is possible if one is open to doing the hard work to make it so.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Okay WOM, you've been around TAM a while. You've had some excellent feedback on this thread. Has any of it rung true with you? Does any of it seem likely to fit into your ideas? What, if anything, are you planning to do?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I agree that woman filled with resentment isn't a good candidate for submission, but rooting out her resentments, and WOM getting rid of his, would go a long way to making it possible. I am an optimist, though I like to think realistic, and think anything is possible if one is open to doing the hard work to make it so.


There's a high possibility she just won't ever be into it the way he wants her to be though, resentments or no resentments. Some people just aren't.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

jld said:


> If you really want a submissive female, WOM, I don't think your wife is it. It just isn't in her nature. She is an equal marriage kind of gal.


You can be an equal marriage kind of gal and sexually submissive. Women can have high-powered careers, have an egalitarian marriage yet still yearn for a man who is dominant in bed. Just because one wants an equal marriage doesn't mean it carries over into the bedroom (or bathroom or wherever you do it).


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> There's a high possibility she just won't ever be into it the way he wants her to be though, resentments or no resentments. Some people just aren't.


True, but it's worth a shot and one never knows until it is tried.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> True, but it's worth a shot and one never knows until it is tried.


Umm...I'm pretty sure he *has* tried? He reported on the first page that if he ties her up, she wants to tie him up too, to be "even".

Regardless of marriage or not...if a man or woman says or does something like this, it is definitely a sign they aren't wanting to be submissive, they are a switch.

I'm just going from those things he has shared. If she was into being submissive, I think she wouldn't be exhibiting the switch behaviors.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Again, I don't disagree with your superior take on this. My instinct is that not matter how submissive she is or isn't, resentment will prevent her from allowing it to flow. So right now, what they're trying, can really work unless the relationship issue come out opinion the open.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Umm...I'm pretty sure he *has* tried? He reported on the first page that if he ties her up, she wants to tie him up too, to be "even".
> 
> Regardless of marriage or not...if a man or woman says or does something like this, it is definitely a sign they aren't wanting to be submissive, they are a switch.
> 
> I'm just going from those things he has shared. If she was into being submissive, I think she wouldn't be exhibiting the switch behaviors.


Regarding the tie up games we play, in some ways I think she thinks it's fun so she wants to do it to me to spread the fun around. I look at it as domination and submission, but she sees it as just a thing we do.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Okay WOM, you've been around TAM a while. You've had some excellent feedback on this thread. Has any of it rung true with you? Does any of it seem likely to fit into your ideas? What, if anything, are you planning to do?


What I'm really taking away from this thread is that the issues are so much deeper than just sex. I've pushed her pretty hard and we've discussed a lot the last 5 days. A lot has been brought out into the open. In crude terms, I've been wanting a good hard fvck, but after all the talking I think what we both need at this very moment is some deep love making. And I want to kiss her and kiss her neck and hold her tight. The thing is, I'm not sure what I'll do if she tries to avoid that again, because that part of it I feel like I need more than ever. And my instinct is to hold her arms down and give her a big ole hickey if she resists.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> What I'm really taking away from this thread is that the issues are so much deeper than just sex. I've pushed her pretty hard and we've discussed a lot the last 5 days. A lot has been brought out into the open. In crude terms, I've been wanting a good hard fvck, but after all the talking I think what we both need at this very moment is some deep love making. And I want to kiss her and kiss her neck and hold her tight. The thing is, I'm not sure what I'll do if she tries to avoid that again, because that part of it I feel like I need more than ever. And my instinct is to hold her arms down and give her a big ole hickey if she resists.


Sounds like a good plan to me!

I know I'm melting...if that's worth anything....


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Sounds like a good plan to me!
> 
> I know I'm melting...if that's worth anything....


Giggle, giggle


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jld said:


> Giggle, giggle


:lol:
Meet in the girls bathroom...we'll smoke and talk about that cute boy!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Okay, jokes aside . . . 

I think the whole holding plan is wonderful. But I am a little nervous about the holding her down part. That could be really scary for her if it does not mean love to her.

I understand you want to show her your power, and that that is part of your love for her. But she has to be able to accept it. It has to be love for her, too. And if she is not submissive, or a willing switch, I don't think it will be received as love.

I know you're hurting right now, WOM. We all feel your pained heart. But is there any way you can put your deep needs aside, and just make it all about her, just love her in a way that will really mean love to her?

And it is great that so much has come out into the open. That is the best, in just about any relationship. Just get it all out there and scream and cry and laugh and just purge. It really will bring you closer. Transparency. Vulnerability.

Speaking for me personally, we can only have the relationship we have, the deep trust we have, because dh puts me and my needs first. He meets those deep emotional needs with his patience and listening and really seeking to understand me. He knows I am more vulnerable than he is and he is not selfish, he does not take advantage.

It takes self-control and inner security, WOM. And being passive aggressive and sleeping on the couch and refusing her advances is not part of the path. Could you apologize to her for that? Could you explain your deep needs but still apologize? Could you take responsibility for the relationship and put her first? Could you ask her how she would best like for you to do that?

I don't know if this is helpful, but I think if my dh were here, it is what he would suggest. It works with me, anyway. 

Best of luck. And thanks again for being open and vulnerable with all of us. There isn't one person here who has not experienced deep hurt at some time or another in life. It is nothing to be ashamed of. It takes courage to talk about it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

WOM,
Are you saying she will not kiss you - lips to lips? 

Because that is very scary. 

Mrs. MEM has a sensitive neck, and I'm ok with that. But if she wouldn't kiss me, she would have to say why. A flat - I don't like to kiss you - would suspend our sex life until it got resolved. 

I brush my teeth after every meal and avoid garlic - if I had an issue with my breath she would nicely tell me. 





WorkingOnMe said:


> What I'm really taking away from this thread is that the issues are so much deeper than just sex. I've pushed her pretty hard and we've discussed a lot the last 5 days. A lot has been brought out into the open. In crude terms, I've been wanting a good hard fvck, but after all the talking I think what we both need at this very moment is some deep love making. And I want to kiss her and kiss her neck and hold her tight. The thing is, I'm not sure what I'll do if she tries to avoid that again, because that part of it I feel like I need more than ever. And my instinct is to hold her arms down and give her a big ole hickey if she resists.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

She'll kiss me a bit. We rarely kiss. For example, a goodbye kiss when I go to work....that has happened perhaps 3 times in the last year and that was an increase over the 10 years before that. When we're having sex we might peck/light kiss once every 10 or 15 times. French kissing is rare. For some reason she's just kind of self conscious about that kind of kissing. She won't refuse it, but it's pretty clear that it's a very low priority for her.

jld holding her down is just how I roll. It actually seems to be her favorite thing about the way we do it, really. She likes it so much that she wants to show me how fun it is by holding me down. But I don't go for that....not one little bit. Holding me down in cowgirl position is a good way to find yourself quickly flipped back down on your back.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

WorkingOnMe,

Is your disconnect really about sex? Feels like your wife is not happy with you. Resentment galore.

So she had her fallopian tubes removed. How does she feel about this? Perhaps you have not shared her pain and sadness over this live changing physiological change?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> WorkingOnMe,
> 
> Is your disconnect really about sex? Feels like your wife is not happy with you. Resentment galore.
> 
> So she had her fallopian tubes removed. How does she feel about this? Perhaps you have not shared her pain?


They left her fallopian tubes in place. So only her uterus has been removed. But really, that is a very recent thing. We've been having issues from way before the surgery came into play. I've been very supportive of her medical issue, but perhaps not as supportive as some might have been.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

My husband can get too forcefull on the kissing too much too early. Kissing is an art, must be escalated ever so slowly. Touch by little touch. Just because a woman like sex forceful doesn't mean she likes kissing forceful.... Sorry, yet another inconsistency about women.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> ... She likes it so much that she wants to show me how fun it is by holding me down. But I don't go for that....not one little bit. Holding me down in cowgirl position is a good way to find yourself quickly flipped back down on your back.


Does she enjoy holding you down too? If she wants to do it that way sometimes, I would at least try to accommodate. For me, I would feel more comfortable doing things for someone who I knew was willing to return the favor with stuff I wanted as well. I wouldn't feel as safe being submissive with someone I didn't have that kind of trust with.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> jld holding her down is just how I roll. It actually seems to be her favorite thing about the way we do it, really. She likes it so much that she wants to show me how fun it is by holding me down. But I don't go for that....not one little bit. Holding me down in cowgirl position is a good way to find yourself quickly flipped back down on your back.


I think she's really a switch, WOM. You don't like that, and I wouldn't do it. I can tell you my dh would not accept that. But that seems to be what she is.

You are doing great with all the talking. Communication builds trust, and you know how important trust is in any relationship, but especially one with a pronounced power dynamic. This switch issue has to be talked about, thoroughly.

What do you think about what I said on the security issues (the sleeping on the couch, refusing her, etc.)?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

WOM, She sounds passive-aggressive. Read about it and see if she fits. If she does, the good news is that you can change the dynamic by changing your behavior. 

When she withdraws, stay where you are and wait for her to come back to you. When she does, be loving. When she test you by withdrawing, don't chase her and try not to show you are upset. Aa you change you can expect that her PA will kick in big time. But if you hold steady, the cycles will decrease. 

She has to learn that there are better ways to gain reassurance that you love her other than making you chase her. 


Let me know if she fits this pattern. If she does, I think I can help you in gaining new ways of dealing with her. It's not about control really, its about reassurance that they are loved. PA people think that you will go away if they give everything you want. 

I have an abundance of PA members in my family. They are lovely people and everyone loves them, when they don't have to deal with them too much. They are giving and charming, no one would believe they are PA. Sometimes I don't believe it.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> My husband can get too forcefull on the kissing too much too early. Kissing is an art, must be escalated ever so slowly. Touch by little touch. Just because a woman like sex forceful doesn't mean she likes kissing forceful.... Sorry, yet another inconsistency about women.


Then some women will want something just before ovulation and not want it a day or two latter. Do you notice any changes in what she wants at different times in her cycle?

Of course, you can't be a slave to cycles but knowledge is power. Know what is going on can help to deal with it. 

Another poster mentioned trying out things that she may like but you don't. You can only do that with a great deal of trust. If you don't trust your partner to be sensitive to how you feel then my advice is just don't do it. Build trust then try, no trust, no try.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Holding me down in cowgirl position is a good way to find yourself quickly flipped back down on your back.


:lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl:
My husband says "that just ain't me babe" when I want to do something to him before I let him do me. It's direct, honest and clear and I like it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Catherine I've missed you! Where have you been?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

BTW thank you WOM for the thread and your honest thoughtful responses. In many ways you remind me of my husband. I am submissive so we have no problem with that. 

It's good to hear what you think because it gives me insight. My husband does not articulate what bothers him very well. He is not insensitive or non-communicative but he is that way.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> Catherine I've missed you! Where have you been?


Hi I missed you too! I got mad and said it and was banned.
Sorry WOM
Back to you.


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## pink_lady (Dec 1, 2012)

WOM did your wife want to have kids? Was the first one planned? I'm confused as to why she became a sahm if her life's dream was to be an successful executive.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

*Re: Re: Not sure where to go from here*



pink_lady said:


> WOM did your wife want to have kids? Was the first one planned? I'm confused as to why she became a sahm if her life's dream was to be an successful executive.


I was wondering the same thing. Why didn't she go back to work after the baby was born?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: Deep breath*



MEM11363 said:


> WOM,
> I totally disagree with Chris T. It is BS to have to initiate 3-4 times to get one yes. It teaches her that her feelings/desires matter and yours don't.
> 
> I do think your W has issues with control, empathy and selfishness...
> ...


I agree, especially given her initiating soon after rejecting him, on a consistent basis. Another possibility is that she wants you to see sex as a favor to you in order to gain concessions from you elsewhere (as in "I want <insert service act>; I provided sex for you and I deserve something in return").

To MEM's speaking points I would add that it's extremely unfair to blame you for stuff that's not your fault. She might resent you for being a SAHM . That is a reality in this economy. You have no control over her workplace: you had to step up and be the breadwinner and don't express resentment towards her.

Some additional things to consider:

What were the circumstances of her getting pregnant? Planned or unplanned, or something you pushed for? Fair or not, if she wasn't 100% on board with having a kid, and somehow ties motherhood to a lack of career success, you have a much harder path to overcoming any resentment she has.

Is she selfish in other aspects of your life? Does she compromise and pull her weight with chores, child-rearing, or even where to have dinner and such? Or, does it always seem like she expects you to do the heavy lifting and is finding ways to do less / get you to do more?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> They left her fallopian tubes in place. So only her uterus has been removed. But really, that is a very recent thing. We've been having issues from way before the surgery came into play. I've been very supportive of her medical issue, but perhaps not as supportive as some might have been.


Don't beat yourself up over not being as supportive as someone else possibly was. She's been chipping away at your desire for her (and the foundation of the marriage) for years with her sex behavior.

It would be unreasonable to expect you to absorb the hurt she has dished out over an extended period and then pivot to the unfaltering, doting husband when she has an issue. If she did expect that, it would just be another sign of her selfishness / putting her wants and needs over yours.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Coffee Amore said:


> You can be an equal marriage kind of gal and sexually submissive. Women can have high-powered careers, have an egalitarian marriage yet still yearn for a man who is dominant in bed. Just because one wants an equal marriage doesn't mean it carries over into the bedroom (or bathroom or wherever you do it).


I don't see this as a sexual issue necessarily. I'm thinking more that she feels a need to be "one up" for some reason. She has some (probably unreasonable) resentments and/or she wants to be treated at a premium vs. what he gets, and this is one way of extracting a price from him.

If she can develop are more generous mindset overall, that might transition over to the sex life.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I read through the thread before going to bed last night, and really got the impression, WOM, that you love your wife very much, regardless of the power dynamic issues. 

Love is the base, the very most important factor in any marriage. I think that it is good you realize this, power issues aside.

And I think she loves you, too, and is trying. This is critical.

While I think working on the power issue is important, it is not the most important thing right now. Those base love issues, does she feel loved, and do you feel loved, and what makes both of you feel loved, and how is this happening, or not happening, are the most important thing.

Right now, it seems like you love her and are more interested in the marriage than she is, so the onus is on you to try to understand her and what could draw her more deeply into relationship with you. You are probably going to have to give more, and be more flexible, at least initially. But you are the dominant partner, at least to you, and so this is normal.

I really think the work is on you to satisfy her, to gain her trust, and all the things you are doing, really listening, really trying to understand her, really talking deeply from your heart and listening and encouraging her to talk from hers, are supremely important. They are part of that love base.

When those issues are resolved, you can get deeply into the power dynamic issues. 

I agree with FW that there may just be a mismatch, and you two can see if you can work that out in a way that you can both feel good about. Some people do. But both of you have to feel good about it. 

A power dynamic, in my opinion, enhances the love base already present in a marriage. I don't think it can replace it. I think it is advanced loving. Not everyone needs it or requires it. A loving marriage is already very satisfying.

But I think you need to walk before you run. And getting a loving, mutually satisfying marriage is the first step. And you are doing the right things, mainly communicating deeply, to get that going. Well done.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Hey WOM, are you comin' back??


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I appologise I've been swamped at work and we're going to Hawaii for a long weekend next week so I've been out of commission. When I woke up yesterday there were so many great new posts and a lot to think about. 

Anyway that night we had a very good night and she's been very affectionate since then.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wonderful. Keep up the good work.


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