# What do you do when someone doesn't ask you to marry him?



## ell (Oct 4, 2016)

I’m 44 and my ‘boy’ friend is 50. We’ve been together for almost 7 years, living together for 6. And he hasn’t asked me to marry him. 

At first I was relaxed about it... it’s not something you can hurry. I’m patient, I trusted that a proposal would happen in it’s own good time. But now the issue is becoming bigger and biggerand I really don’t know what to do. Right from the start I’ve always been totally upfront that I believe in love, and getting married, and my faith in happy relationships that last a lifetime. 

Then last year he wanted me to have IVF to try to have a late baby. (He has no children, although I have 3 teenagers.) At 44, time was totally of essence, so I couldn’t delay the IVF. I also didn’t want to hold a gun to his head about getting engaged and ‘blackmail’ him with the threat of delaying IVF. (Although I would have drawn the line if the IVF had been successful, and not gone ahead with it without a proposal - AND the invites sent out.)

But it wasn’t successful. So now, on top of everything else, I worry that because I can’t have a child, he will be looking for someone else who is younger and can. (I have told him I feel this way). At the time, in counseling, I offered to leave him so he could find someone to have children with and he got teary and said he wouldn’t want to have children with anybody but me. We’re very happy and romantic and I have no doubt that he loves me. SO WHY WON’T HE MARRY ME??? It’s not like we’re free spirits who don’t care about a piece of paper. We’re both fairly traditional types, I have a religious background and so does he. All our friends and family are married. There’s no reason at all not to. 

I’ve cried and told him exactly how I feel ... I’ve been calm and matter of fact and told him exactly how I feel ... and nothing. I know he needs time and patience, so I wait and wait and wait. But for SEVEN YEARS? He’s a closed book, non-communicative type, he gets tongue tied and silent and says in helpless, loving tones that I shouldn’t let it worry me. He says that he wanted a child with me, and that proves his commitment. (Sadly, I don't think it does in this day and age.) 

It really is the one area in life where a female can’t make it happen, it’s the man who needs to. It sucks. I’m the sort of person who gets upset about something but then stops being upset and forgets about it for a while, I guess I have a fairly sunny nature, so I never really make too big a deal of it for very long. I guess if I got upset, and stayed upset, it might cause something to happen. But then I don’t think me being upset for a prolonged period of time is going to help a relationship very much... all the more reason for him not to propose! A proposal that I force out of him by ultimatum isn’t what I want to do at all... I don’t want to force anyone into anything. I don’t want to drag anyone kicking and screaming to the altar! 

And he’s stubborn and pigheaded enough to dig his heels in until it’s too late, he hates to be railroaded and told what to do. I’ve told him how much it hurts me. So add to all this, the growing resentment I feel that he knows he’s hurting me, but doesn’t do anything about it. The longer he delays, I feel this sinking feeling of seeing the man I love behaving like a jerk, it’s breaking my heart that he betrayed the trust I placed in him. 

It seems crazy to leave a successful relationship but what else can I do? Not to mention the fact that I’m midway through setting up a new business and not as financially independent as I usually am right now, it would be quite difficult to leave. Also, it would kill me if I left him and moved on and he learns his lesson and goes on to marry someone else!!!!! Part of me understands it’s just a piece of paper, nothing more than a thought construct in my head, but still... we have a wedding coming up next week of a friends of ours who met AFTER WE DID. I’m dreading the wedding, I’m worried I’m going to cry and make a fool of myself in front of everybody we know. And facing the inevitable questions as to why we're not married yet, people pitying me.... And not to be a bragger, but I am NICE! It’s never been hard for me to meet men, I’ve had plenty of men in love with me in my lifetime. I still attract guys if I go out. There is nothing wrong with me, I'm a normal woman that is as worthy to be married as anybody else.

It is partly his personality. He takes forever to make a decision and he overthinks even the simplest thing, it took him months of research to just buy a pair of skis or decide what to do about the faulty air conditioning. Hence the fact that I have waited. Apparently he was a commitment phobe in the past, with an on and off girlfriend that he never married or even lived with, and everyone was amazed when he actually did commit and asked me and my 3 children to move in with him. 

I should add that he was totally the one that chased me from the start... I am a firm believer in not chasing men, let them initiate, I've read the "He's just not that into you" book and totally agree. But I really don't know how to apply that in this situation. 

The ‘men are from mars’ type self help books say things like roll the relationship back a stage ... but it’s a bit hard when you’re actually LIVING together and virtually ARE married. Not to mention it feels manipulative and calculating. I feel like if he really love me he would marry me, if he doesn’t love me enough to marry me, then I should leave him. But in my heart of hearts I know he DOES love me! No idea how to deal with this!


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

There's a lot here, a lot I'd like to write, but I'm on a phone so I may come back to edit later. 

But for the moment, I can understand how you feel in many respects, but as much as you say that the reason you are not married is his fault, I actually believe it is yours. 

You stayed with him for 7 years. 
You did not leave him to pursue what you really wanted.
You kept building a life with and around him despite this, so now you feel stuck. 
From my personal perspective, if a man doesn't want to marry you in two years, he doesn't want to marry you. Yes, some men take a lot longer to decide, but you may not want to be the person waiting. Just as some women (like myself) want to wait to have sex. Some men do not want to wait, and I would always encourage them to find a more suitable woman, and they would. Telling him now to go find another woman, when you've stayed with him for 7 years, is not something he's going to take seriously. He knows that you aren't going anywhere. 

I am very sorry about the IVF treatments not working, but your chances, given both your ages, are going to be slim. It is not your fault...it just is. I used to work at a biotechnology company, and I've also got some first hand experience. If he wants a child, that's HIS internal struggle. I can't really tell from your post if you were as keen to have children, so I don't want to downplay your desire if it was genuine, too. I can appreciate he wants a child with you, but IVF is not a miracle cure... You must always be real about your chances and the factors unfortunately working against you. 
Please, please stop comparing your status with friends, family, whomever. That is disrespectful to your own relationship, which will go at the pace you both decide and allow. It will make you jealous of other people's lives and that jealousy will cover over any genuine happiness you could have. I myself got married for the second time before my best friend has even got a proposal. While I care for her and think she is wonderful, I also know there are many things that she allows in her relationship which goes against what she says she wants. So from my perspective, unless she makes drastic changes, her life is going to stay exactly as it is and the proposal will always be out of her grasp. I've been very frank with her, but she is the master of her own destiny.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

We were together for over 7 years before we got married. We'd both had bad marriages before, so were wary of the pitfalls of marriage. We were very worried that marriage would ruin our great relationship, to the extent that we agreed to divorce if we started taking each other for granted, and try to recapture what we had. Marriage to us is not important, other than for some pragmatic benefits provided by law to married people.

If marriage is that important to you, then ask for it, and if he doesn't step up, leave. It will be hard, and you may not find as good a relationship later - with or without marriage - but you will have the opportunity to seek that out if that's what you want.


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## ell (Oct 4, 2016)

But you DID get married! Even you, who states that you don't think it's important! (Or did you really get married for purely pragmatic benefits, if so what were they?) To me, marriage is something joyful that you do when you love someone. It's a declaration of your hope and belief that you've found a true love and the person you'll grow old with. And that you commit your best intentions and efforts to having a happy relationship with that person. Wow I should write for Hallmark. I feel as if by not marrying me, it's a statement that he's not really that committed, and doesn't really love me enough for that, and he's allowing for the possibility that someone better will come along. People look on and perceive it that way, I know for a fact they do, and I feel humiliated and like I have to hold my head up high in the face of what they think. I know.. I shouldn't care what my friends, family, and social circles think, but I'm human and I do. (And yes, I do realise being married doesn't guarantee anything.)


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Marriage is a priority for you and you stated that early on but you don't mention his view on getting married. Sounds like he doesn't want to. No idea his backstory but marriage/divorce isn't always a great endeavor for men and if he has been through that he might be gun shy. That said you are under no obligation to wait here, you realize that. Unless their is something you haven't told us specifically why he won't marry you then chances are this is just how he wants life. So you stay in the good realtioship or move on to find another. If this is really important to you then don't let what you want be determined by someone else. He of course needs to do the same.


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## ell (Oct 4, 2016)

From my personal perspective, if a man doesn't want to marry you in two years, he doesn't want to marry you. Yes, some men take a lot longer to decide, but you may not want to be the person waiting. *I don't think you can put a timeline on it, especially when it wasn't my first marriage and I already had children, and everybody is different. But sure... 2 years is a reasonable timeframe. *

Another child is not an option for me now. I am happy with my three, and only wanted another one for his sake. I would have been happy to have another one with him had it worked out that way.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

ell said:


> But you DID get married! Even you, who states that you don't think it's important! (Or did you really get married for purely pragmatic benefits, if so what were they?) To me, marriage is something joyful that you do when you love someone. It's a declaration of your hope and belief that you've found a true love and the person you'll grow old with. And that you commit your best intentions and efforts to having a happy relationship with that person. Wow I should write for Hallmark. I feel as if by not marrying me, it's a statement that he's not really that committed, and doesn't really love me enough for that, and he's allowing for the possibility that someone better will come along. People look on and perceive it that way, I know for a fact they do, and I feel humiliated and like I have to hold my head up high in the face of what they think. I know.. I shouldn't care what my friends, family, and social circles think, but I'm human and I do. (And yes, I do realise being married doesn't guarantee anything.)


Have you shared this with him? Because if so this alone can be very counter productive. I had a Gf a few years back who I had to break up with over this very issue. Difference is we only went out a 18 months . We didn't make it to 6 month before she started in with the marriage thing and spoke much like you did in this post. So let me tell you how I perceived what you are saying in my guy brain. 

You think of marriage as a goal, a status, a priority but not the relationship. You care more about What others think than what I think. You aren't willing to make the priority a great relationship before talks of marriage. 

So this of course led to arguments. I couldnt help but feel that all she was really interested in was the status of a marriage and not me. Like anyone willing to marry her would do I was just the available choice at the moment. The more she talked about it and whined about it the more turned off it I became until finally I realized that if I stayed or god forbid if I ever married her I would always feel that I was just a convienant choice. If she had ever said, just once, I don't care if we marry or not I just want to be with you I would have probably purposed in a heartbeat. However the nagging and my gut telling me she only wanted the status and not me lead me to break it off with her.

Less than 4 months later, 4 MONTHs, she married some other guy and proved me right.

Does anything I typed here sounds like something he has said to you?


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

ell said:


> It really is the one area in life where a female can’t make it happen, it’s the man who needs to. It sucks. I’m the sort of person who gets upset about something but then stops being upset and forgets about it for a while, I guess I have a fairly sunny nature, so I never really make too big a deal of it for very long. I guess if I got upset, and stayed upset, it might cause something to happen. But then I don’t think me being upset for a prolonged period of time is going to help a relationship very much... all the more reason for him not to propose! A proposal that I force out of him by ultimatum isn’t what I want to do at all... I don’t want to force anyone into anything. I don’t want to drag anyone kicking and screaming to the altar!
> 
> ...
> 
> The ‘men are from mars’ type self help books say things like roll the relationship back a stage ... but it’s a bit hard when you’re actually LIVING together and virtually ARE married. Not to mention it feels manipulative and calculating. I feel like if he really love me he would marry me, if he doesn’t love me enough to marry me, then I should leave him. But in my heart of hearts I know he DOES love me! No idea how to deal with this!


Oh that's so much BS. This is 2016. If you want to marry him, then pop the question yourself. He'll either say yes, in which case the problem is solved, or he'll hem and haw or say no. In which case you know the relationship isn't going where you want it to, and you can do that relationship evaluation he's been manipulating you into avoiding up to now.

Sadly, to me, it sounds like he already has everything he wants from you, and isn't willing to take that last step that you want because the formality of marriage just isn't as important to him as it is to you. You're the only one who can decide if that's a relationship dealbreaker for you.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> I’ve cried and told him exactly how I feel ... I’ve been calm and matter of fact and told him exactly how I feel ... and nothing. I know he needs time and patience, so I wait and wait and wait. But for SEVEN YEARS? He’s a closed book, non-communicative type, he gets tongue tied and silent and says in helpless, loving tones that I shouldn’t let it worry me. He says that he wanted a child with me, and that proves his commitment. (Sadly, I don't think it does in this day and age.)


I don't understand what he has said to you these many times you have expressed your feelings and thoughts about marriage. What has he SAID about marriage? Has he told you he never wants to get married? Does he talk about someday getting married but not now? Has he said he doesn't believe in marriage? Have you asked him straight out whether he ever thinks he wants to marry, and to marry you?

When he said that you "shouldn't let it worry you" and wanting a child "proves his commitment" what do you say? Do you tell him that it does worry you and that children don't prove commitment and you need to understand his views on marriage? Or do you just drop it?

If he has trouble communicating, maybe you could try communicating through writing. Some people who are unable to speak during discussions are able to express themselves in writing where they have time to think and choose their words.

In any case, though, since you've had these many discussions over 7 years, I think the short answer is he does not want to get married. You have to decide if you can live with things as they are forever, or whether you can't deal with it and have to move on. You don't have to decide instantly, but if he won't talk about it and he doesn't want to get married, you have to accept that.

My fiance and I are older (49 and 50), and have been together many years before getting engaged, first marriage for both of us. We're both probably commitment phobes in our own ways. But we spent a couple of years talking about it and planning for it (marriage, not a wedding), so it wasn't a matter of one pushing the other. We never lived together, though. Seems like you've already done the hard part - building a life together over the past 7 years. Maybe ask him what he thinks will change if you get married.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

i agree with most of the above.

in this day and age (or whenever for that matter), it's ok for a woman to suggest, or even ask for marriage.

it's traditional for the man to formally ask (propose), but it's not undignified for the woman to express her opinions, hopes ,desires and dreams.
in fact, you diminish your dignity by not saying anything, stating your needs, or holding your ground!

my own wife told me several times "don't make me wait too long!". so i got on my knees and popped the question.


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## ell (Oct 4, 2016)

Wolf1974 said:


> Marriage is a priority for you and you stated that early on but you don't mention his view on getting married. Sounds like he doesn't want to. No idea his backstory but marriage/divorce isn't always a great endeavor for men and if he has been through that he might be gun shy. That said you are under no obligation to wait here, you realize that. Unless their is something you haven't told us specifically why he won't marry you then chances are this is just how he wants life. So you stay in the good realtioship or move on to find another. If this is really important to you then don't let what you want be determined by someone else. He of course needs to do the same.


 Marriage and children were always part of his life plan - but in the future. I think he somehow expected the children to materialize complete with a mother while he was at the pub. I think it's a bit of a shock to him to have reached 50 with no children. He had a 15 year on/off relationship that was rocky - she desperately wanted marriage and children but he wouldn't commit. Then he met someone else and didn't commit to her either. So I'm the most successful relationship he's had yet. He occasionally refers to me as his wife. Once he was looking for some jewelery to buy me as a gift when we were overseas and the only ring that fit me was a little too reminiscent of an engagement ring. He said something about when he buys the engagement ring it's going to be better than that ring. (The ring was nothing special.) He's the sort of guy that would research a diamond ring for months before he buys it. It will take a lot of his headspace to propose. I couldn't care less about rings and weddings and all that stuff. I know I don't have to wait... but I really hate the idea of my second relationship breaking up.


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## ell (Oct 4, 2016)

jorgegene said:


> i agree with most of the above.
> 
> in this day and age (or whenever for that matter), it's ok for a woman to suggest, or even ask for marriage.
> 
> ...


GOOD ON YOU! However, I HAVE expressed my desires... lightheartedly and playfully in the early stages, but lately i've been upset about it. HOW do I stand my ground?? I can't hold a gun to his head! What would your wife have done if you'd made her wait too long? Her only recourse would have been to leave you.. really not a nice option.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

ell said:


> From my personal perspective, if a man doesn't want to marry you in two years, he doesn't want to marry you. Yes, some men take a lot longer to decide, but you may not want to be the person waiting. *I don't think you can put a timeline on it, especially when it wasn't my first marriage and I already had children, and everybody is different. But sure... 2 years is a reasonable timeframe. *
> 
> Another child is not an option for me now. I am happy with my three, and only wanted another one for his sake. I would have been happy to have another one with him had it worked out that way.


This is so difficult to address properly.

Yes marriage is only a piece of paper...........NOT. It is a legal document binding two souls under the power of the law. This guy has trust issues. He wants to stay with you but does not want to legally bind his life to yours.

He is not stubborn. He is selfish....selfishly stubborn, if you will.

You say you do not want to force him to marry you. Separating and telling him he must marry you IS forcing him. You know this. He would agree.

But this is your only viable choice. 

Tell him how you feel: He is the one for you, you love him with all your heart, you want to spend all your days with him. You have no intention of ever marrying another man, should you separate.

Tell him this with tears in your heart....if that is WHAT YOU TRULY FEEL!

Tell him that you would never force him to decide to do anything. He must do this on his own.

Then move out and make him do all the heavy lifting and courting and all that he should be willing to do. Be sweet and kind the whole time. You do not want to drive him away.

You want him to {want to} marry you, and it to be documented for all of eternity. Legally bound to you.

You have to be willing to lose him to win his 100% commitment. He needs to grow up and be a Husband, not a BFF.

He is biding his time........for what? Ding, Ding, Ding.....his time is Up.......no, down the drain!


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## ell (Oct 4, 2016)

Thanks for all the replies, I really appreciate the time you've spent to respond. It's helps. Sorry I can't seem to reply direct to the person saying it.. but to Wolf: WOW 4 months later engaged, that's crazy! Honestly, no, I'm not like that though. I've already been married and had children and am 44 so it's a kind of different scenario to being young and starting out. Also, we're almost 7 years in now... so it's only in the last 2-3 years I've been getting antsy about it. 

He's hard to pin down and communicate with. He doesn't really answer.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

ell said:


> Thanks for all the replies, I really appreciate the time you've spent to respond. It's helps. Sorry I can't seem to reply direct to the person saying it.. but to Wolf: WOW 4 months later engaged, that's crazy! Honestly, no, I'm not like that though. I've already been married and had children and am 44 so it's a kind of different scenario to being young and starting out. Also, we're almost 7 years in now... so it's only in the last 2-3 years I've been getting antsy about it.
> 
> *He's hard to pin down and communicate with. He doesn't really answer.*


Actions speak louder than words...trite, but true.

So....................hit him with actions, sans words. Words have no effect on Mr. Stubborn?

Actions? Oh, Yeah!

Separate.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

As a woman who has had three failed marriages (yes you read that right, THREE FAILED MARRIAGES...hence my user name!), I feel compelled to comment. 

Being married is great. You get warm fuzzies knowing that you have a partner for life, someone who "belongs" to you and who you "belong" to. There is a comfort in that. HOWEVER. If the RELATIONSHIP between the two married people isn't rock solid, the whole MARRIED title doesn't mean a damn thing. I have come to realize that what is important is a good, solid, loving relationship. If you have a good man who is faithful to you, who is there for you when you need him, who tells you and shows you that he loves you and is committed to you...then you have everything.

Ell, I think you need to back off of the marriage thing for a bit. Appreciate what you have. I think if you do that, just enjoy things for a while, then your SO will eventually step up and propose. Do you really want to lose him over this if he doesn't? I think @Wolf1974's post is extremely relevant here, make sure you re-read it. I do wish you the best.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

ell said:


> But you DID get married! Even you, who states that you don't think it's important! (Or did you really get married for purely pragmatic benefits, if so what were they?)


It was purely pragmatic - we already had love, trust, commitment. Marriage provided necessary health insurance that could not be obtained any other way at that time, and she would have died without it. Eventually, it provides higher social security retirement benefits for her. Inheritance, power of attorney, etc., are easier when married, but can be accomplished with other legal documents. I do think that marriage is very desirable if you are having children together. Someday, if there is a good financial or other reason to do so, we may get divorced while continuing our relationship as before.


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## ell (Oct 4, 2016)

_Then move out and make him do all the heavy lifting and courting and all that he should be willing to do. Be sweet and kind the whole time. You do not want to drive him away._
Agree. Other people are saying this too in the thread and I guess that's all I can do. So sad that it comes to that after 7 years. And I think if I'm forced to do that there'll be no going back. Deep down I feel this massive hurt at what's happened and I don't think I'll be able to forgive. Ultimately I just want him to really love me and care about what's important to me and I'm so sad that he's proving that he doesn't. 

We have an overseas holiday with my children booked for January. To be honest I don't want to miss out on that (at least I admit it) so here's my plan: I'm going to just focus on getting my business launched... build up my savings... strengthen my friendships with my girlfriends ... continue to be friendly/cook his meals/hold up my end of the relationship to keep things harmonious ... but not be my usual affectionate self that's always got the relationship as the priority. For instance here I am now (it's 11.30pm in Australia) at the computer instead of downstairs with him hanging out. I've said I'm working... which I am actually, as soon as I finish writing this ; ) I'm just going to disengage a bit. Tomorrow night I'm supposed to go out with him and his 2 sisters and his mother for her birthday. Normally I wouldn't miss it for the world because I really like his mother and love going out with his family. But maybe I should make some reason and not go. I feel really sad for all the emotional investment I've made into his family too : (


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

ell said:


> Thanks for all the replies, I really appreciate the time you've spent to respond. It's helps. Sorry I can't seem to reply direct to the person saying it.. but to Wolf: WOW 4 months later engaged, that's crazy! Honestly, no, I'm not like that though. I've already been married and had children and am 44 so it's a kind of different scenario to being young and starting out. Also, we're almost 7 years in now... so it's only in the last 2-3 years I've been getting antsy about it.
> 
> He's hard to pin down and communicate with. He doesn't really answer.


Well she wasn't starting out either she was divorced and had a kid.

I think you do have an answer. What he is saying and what he is doing is different. My question is do you know why he doesn't want to marry. I don't think I understand they reason he doesn't want to. I suggest that you press that to gain understanding.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

ell said:


> Marriage and children were always part of his life plan - but in the future. I think he somehow expected the children to materialize complete with a mother while he was at the pub. I think it's a bit of a shock to him to have reached 50 with no children. He had a 15 year on/off relationship that was rocky - she desperately wanted marriage and children but he wouldn't commit. Then he met someone else and didn't commit to her either. So I'm the most successful relationship he's had yet. He occasionally refers to me as his wife. Once he was looking for some jewelery to buy me as a gift when we were overseas and the only ring that fit me was a little too reminiscent of an engagement ring. He said something about when he buys the engagement ring it's going to be better than that ring. (The ring was nothing special.) He's the sort of guy that would research a diamond ring for months before he buys it. It will take a lot of his headspace to propose. I couldn't care less about rings and weddings and all that stuff. I know I don't have to wait... but I really hate the idea of my second relationship breaking up.


 @ell, I'm honestly not trying to sound snarky or anything here... But what makes you so sure you are different from his past relationships? 

He behaved that way with them, he's been behaving that way with you. You knew how he was and for the last 7 years he's been confirming to you that he is how he is. What else do you need from him before you'll believe it?

Sure, maybe he will take a long time to come around. I have personally known 2 men I really loved just like that. I'm not married to either of them because they were happy to stay unmarried and in a relationship that was pretty much just like marriage without the paperwork. That suited them. It did not suit me. I sincerely hope they found women that were not interested in marriage so they could be happy. 

I think it's very likely your guy simply likes things as they are. Are you severely unhappy? Are you fighting a lot? Reassess your feelings and your place in this relationship. See what you have and whether your terms of marriage are negotiable or non negotiable. If you just want to be married, I agree with others that you should pop the question and gauge his reaction, carefully. It should tell you more than all the conversation in the world. 

Im sorry that you put so much stock into what others think. I do hope you will some day see what a waste of time it is to be concerned about what others perceive. They do not live in your shoes. The fear of what others may think will keep your feet in cement.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Satya said:


> Im sorry that you put so much stock into what others think. I do hope you will some day see what a waste of time it is to be concerned about what others perceive. They do not live in your shoes. The fear of what others may think will keep your feet in cement.


I'm glad someone picked up on this secondary issue. I couldn't imagine caring if one of my friends in a long-term relationship was legally married or not. If her friends do comment about it, she might want to find better friends with less time on their hands.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

What are the laws in your area regarding common-law marriage? Given that you've been together this long, you may already be married. If this might be the case now (or soon), you could use it as rationale for going ahead and getting it done official.

ETA: Never mind. Just Googled it and recognized that my perceptions of common-law marriage are a myth. Please return to your regular programming.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

ell said:


> *so here's my plan:* I'm going to just focus on getting my business launched... build up my savings... strengthen my friendships with my girlfriends ... continue to be friendly/cook his meals/hold up my end of the relationship to keep things harmonious ... but not be my usual affectionate self that's always got the relationship as the priority. For instance here I am now (it's 11.30pm in Australia) at the computer instead of downstairs with him hanging out. I've said I'm working... which I am actually, as soon as I finish writing this ; ) I'm just going to disengage a bit. Tomorrow night I'm supposed to go out with him and his 2 sisters and his mother for her birthday. Normally I wouldn't miss it for the world because I really like his mother and love going out with his family. But maybe I should make some reason and not go. I feel really sad for all the emotional investment I've made into his family too : (


This is called a covert contract and it's a terrible idea. After seven years, obviously he doesn't want to marry you. 

If for nothing else, the legal contract it forms. Right now, he gets everything he needs and doesn't have to fear dealing with a divorce.

Why should he propose? If you force his hand he will ALWAYS resent you for it. Is that what you want? I don't doubt he loves you.

However, honestly, its better to just end the relationship if marriage is THIS important to you. As someone who WAS married, my opinion? 

It is JUST a piece of paper. Your life won't change at all seeing how intertwined it is. You'd be better off just being happy with what you have.


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## GreyEcho (Sep 28, 2016)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Oh that's so much BS. This is 2016. If you want to marry him, then pop the question yourself. He'll either say yes, in which case the problem is solved, or he'll hem and haw or say no. In which case you know the relationship isn't going where you want it to, and you can do that relationship evaluation he's been manipulating you into avoiding up to now.
> 
> Sadly, to me, it sounds like he already has everything he wants from you, and isn't willing to take that last step that you want because the formality of marriage just isn't as important to him as it is to you. You're the only one who can decide if that's a relationship dealbreaker for you.



Exactly! :grin2:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> We were together for over 7 years before we got married. We'd both had bad marriages before, so were wary of the pitfalls of marriage. We were very worried that marriage would ruin our great relationship, to the extent that we agreed to divorce if we started taking each other for granted, and try to recapture what we had. Marriage to us is not important, other than for some pragmatic benefits provided by law to married people.
> 
> If marriage is that important to you, then ask for it, and if he doesn't step up, leave. It will be hard, and you may not find as good a relationship later - with or without marriage - but you will have the opportunity to seek that out if that's what you want.


:iagree:

Have you asked him why?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

I'm with you OP. Marriage is important - but I could care less what others think.

If others' perceptions are important about this, then separately deal with that - go to an IC and talk about why other people's opinions are so important to you that they destroy your happiness.

If you want to be married because you want to be married TO THIS GUY, then I would agree with you. 

In that case you have a couple of options: wait and build resentment; choose a really nice location and time and directly propose to him (no crying or talking about your emotions about not being married - I mean really propose); or let him know, in a loving, non-threatening way that marriage to HIM is the next most important step in your relationship, and ask him to think about that for a while and give you an answer when he's comfortable.

In the third option I WOULD NOT set a timeline out loud and resist if he asks. Tell him he owns his own timeline for deciding what he wants to do and you'll respect that.

However... I'd set an internal timeline that is good for you. Knowing how deliberate he is it might have to be a year. In that time, NEVER talk about it again.

But... watch your time line and mentally prepare for your next move in life, which is probably to move out. If you have had this honest discussion and not brought it up again, he will have been put on notice. You won't have to explain yourself. Just maybe have a plan in place to move out, and before you do let him know that's your next step although it's not the one you were hoping for. Put that way, you've given him time and space, and your giving him one more chance to come to the same conclusion you've made, which is that marriage is important and the next step.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NoEasyWayOut (Oct 26, 2016)

I agree that 2 years seems to be a reasonable amount of time to wait for a man to propose. Unfortunately, time goes by so quickly and before you know it many more years have passed. This is what happened to you by no fault of your own.

One of the main reasons for marriage is security. Mainly financial and medical decisions are much easier to make when you have legal documents. After 7 years together, you should feel comfortable bringing this up to your boyfriend.

I would wait until the opportunity presents itself, when you are both in relaxed good moods.Then I'd casually mention the time you have invested in this relationship and your need to protect each other. Discuss the financial advantages of being married. Workplace benefits, life insurance, pensions, health insurance, etc..

If he doesn't see these as reasons to get married, suggest setting up these protections without getting married. Make each other medical proxies (if you feel you can trust him), get a will, make sure that if something happens to him you can stay in the home you've made together. Joint life insurance policies are another option.

He should see your concerns as legitimate. Time to move on if he doesn't. His options should be to get married or go to a lawyer and set up financial/medical protections equivalent to a married couple.

Good luck! I hope he sees the light. You are not legally married yet so are under no obligation to try to make this work. Don't live with another 7 years of uncertainty.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

ell said:


> _Then move out and make him do all the heavy lifting and courting and all that he should be willing to do. Be sweet and kind the whole time. You do not want to drive him away._
> Agree. Other people are saying this too in the thread and I guess that's all I can do. So sad that it comes to that after 7 years. And I think if I'm forced to do that there'll be no going back. Deep down I feel this massive hurt at what's happened and I don't think I'll be able to forgive. Ultimately I just want him to really love me and care about what's important to me and I'm so sad that he's proving that he doesn't.
> 
> We have an overseas holiday with my children booked for January. To be honest I don't want to miss out on that (at least I admit it) so here's my plan: I'm going to just focus on getting my business launched... build up my savings... strengthen my friendships with my girlfriends ... continue to be friendly/cook his meals/hold up my end of the relationship to keep things harmonious ... but not be my usual affectionate self that's always got the relationship as the priority. For instance here I am now (it's 11.30pm in Australia) at the computer instead of downstairs with him hanging out. I've said I'm working... which I am actually, as soon as I finish writing this ; ) I'm just going to disengage a bit. Tomorrow night I'm supposed to go out with him and his 2 sisters and his mother for her birthday. Normally I wouldn't miss it for the world because I really like his mother and love going out with his family. But maybe I should make some reason and not go. I feel really sad for all the emotional investment I've made into his family too : (


If I'm being honest, your FIRST mistake was agreeing to go through extensive fertility procedures to have a baby with someone who doesn't deem you worthy of making the ultimate commitment. That's a crock of bull that 'agreeing to have a child IS a commitment.' He knows full well he can take off anytime he likes and his only 'commitment' would be child support and every other weekend visitation while *you* would end up being a late in life mother with a baby whose going to graduate high school when you're retirement age. Sure, he could do that if you were married as well, but in his mind, not being married affords him a much cleaner and quicker break for it.

I really don't understand why you'd do that for someone who isn't even willing to make the ultimate commit to YOU. It'd be a cold day in Hell before I'd do that for any man in my 40's, much less one who felt I should do it without being married to him. I think it's pretty pitiful that this guy is 50 years old and suddenly started crying about wanting kids so late in life. He just sounds so unbelievably selfish. 

This is who you're stuck with. A selfish man who wants to have it all but doesn't want to make any legal commitments to have it. He knows how you feel, you've told him enough times. And that ignorant argument some people make about it being 'just a piece of paper' is actually laughable. If it WERE 'just a piece of paper,' then why do those making that ridiculous claim avoid it like the plague? 

You have two choices. Continue living with a selfish man who wants you to continue allowing him all the benefits of marriage without the commitment, or find a grownup who isn't emotionally stunted and has the same views on marriage you do.

He ain't it.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> If I'm being honest, your FIRST mistake was agreeing to go through extensive fertility procedures to have a baby with someone who doesn't deem you worthy of making the ultimate commitment. That's a crock of bull that 'agreeing to have a child IS a commitment.' He knows full well he can take off anytime he likes and his only 'commitment' would be child support and every other weekend visitation while *you* would end up being a late in life mother with a baby whose going to graduate high school when you're retirement age. Sure, he could do that if you were married as well, but in his mind, not being married affords him a much cleaner and quicker break for it.
> 
> I really don't understand why you'd do that for someone who isn't even willing to make the ultimate commit to YOU. It'd be a cold day in Hell before I'd do that for any man in my 40's, much less one who felt I should do it without being married to him. I think it's pretty pitiful that this guy is 50 years old and suddenly started crying about wanting kids so late in life. He just sounds so unbelievably selfish.
> 
> ...


I agree with this (harsh as it may be).

Wanting you to have his child is the commitment to end all commitments. He was willing and insistent on this, yet will not commit to marrying you - something that CAN be reversed if need be. It's bass-ackwards.

I'm going to take a guess and say that it's not YOU he doesn't want to marry, so I wouldn't worry about that (unless you have cause to). It's just that he has likely stigmatized marriage over the years in his own mind, to the point where it's a no-go, period.

It also occurred to me that perhaps he doesn't want to be anybody's second husband. Again, nothing to do with YOU, but unfortunately, people think that way. I have a very good, long time friend (since childhood) who will not legally marry his 'wife' for this reason. They have two kids together, and a third that she had from her previous husband. He had never been married before, and, I kid you not, will not marry her, ostensibly for this reason. Luckily, she's okay with this, and has no deep desire to be married again, but it would be her preference. However, he does not want to get married, officially, more or less for the fact that he would be her second husband. (he's not a bad guy at all, he's actually one of the good ones. He just has... interesting views on certain subjects).

Interestingly enough, my wife had similar concerns about our marriage - me having been married before, and her never having been married. She didn't outright say it, but I got the impression she'd have preferred I'd never been married before. I was very careful to show my (genuine) enthusiasm throughout the 18 months of planning, lest she feel I was simply going through the motions, or 'been there, done that'. I know she had those concerns. I also know that in the back of her mind, she knows she's my second wife, and always will be. And to be fair, I can actually understand where she's coming from, a little bit, as she had children prior to me, and I have none. I certainly don't resent or begrudge that fact, however in a perfect world, she would have been my first wife, and her kids would have been ours.

As for straight advice - I don't know, TBH. I wouldn't be holding my breath for a proposal, but if one does come, I get the impression he'd make a big deal out of it (ie. "I'm doing this for you"). To me, I'd only want to marry someone who WANTS to marry me, and for the right reasons. I waited three years before I proposed, and I was under no pressure to do so. We had already bought a house together, and all the other things. For me, personally, I wanted to make sure (I never really had any doubt, but all the same) that my wife did not simply want somebody to help raise her kids, or a second income, or that she wanted to be married by a certain age, etc. I wanted to ensure, for her sake and mine, that she wanted marriage for the 'right' reasons.

I learned my lesson the first time around. My ex wife and I married young (early/mid 20's) after having been together for 7 years (since late teens). By the time I proposed to her, it was more along the lines of "we've been together this long, so let's do it". Hindsight is 20/20. If I had a time machine, I'd have been able to see that we didn't get married because we WANTED to, more because it seemed like it was inevitable, and we might as well. When you're that young, 7 years is a lifetime, and I guess we both felt like it was the next logical step. Things went downhill immediately. I mean immediately. Wedding night, she rolled over to go to sleep, rolled back over 10 seconds later and said, and I quote (I'll never forget certain words) "I guess we should have sex, huh?" Hell, even the day I proposed (we were on a vacation and staying at a hotel), she didn't want to call her parents and tell them the 'good news'. She said she'll just tell them when we got home. Like I said - time machine.

OP's boyfriend sounds a lot like my ex wife in this regard. My (now) wife was overjoyed and excited when I proposed, and picked up the phone to tell everyone within minutes. She screwed my brains out on our wedding night, and the next morning. She flashed her ring(s) to everyone she saw. And I was proud to call her my fiancee first, then wife, and still am. And I never expected, or planned, to have been married twice.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

7 years is more than enough time for him to decide. 4 years is still more than enough time (you said you've only been antsy about it for the last 3 years). If it's not happened now sweets, it's not going to. At least not without ultimatums etc. and you sure don't want him marrying you because you forced him into it...yuck.

I made it clear to my then boyfriend, when he said he thought 5 years was a good amount of time to be together and then propose, that no way was I waiting 5 years. I had no desire to be a 5 year girlfriend. Then he said 2 years, hehehe. I agreed that was reasonable. If I'm good enough to live with, sleep with and help raise his daughter, put a ring on it buddy! Rofl. We dated for a year, lived together for a year and then got married.

One night we were in bed, it was late and we were chatting as couples do, about the future, marriage, etc. I said "If you're not ready that's ok, but you need to tell me, I need to know that, and if you are ready, get on with it" hehehe. A few weeks later he proposed 

If I were in your position, I would simply say to him "Your reluctance to marry me after all I've invested in this relationship and our life together is making me feel uncertain about our relationship. I am moving out to think about what I want and where we go from here". And then move out. Either he'll step up or he won't, but either way you'll have your answer.

*I'm his second wife, and I don't have any children. We likely would have waited longer had we both had children in the mix


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

It doesn't sound like this guy had any idea what IVF treatments are like for the woman. What a selfish person. You might want to consider your self lucky that they didn't produce a pregnancy. He may never want to be married. 

Al Pacino convinced then-girlfriend Beverly D'Angelo to undergo IVF. At the age of 49 she delivered twins and two years later Pacino dumped her. He has 3 kids and still has never married.

You've given him 7 years of your life - move on and find a like-minded man who respects you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ell said:


> Thanks for all the replies, I really appreciate the time you've spent to respond. It's helps. Sorry I can't seem to reply direct to the person saying it.. but to Wolf: WOW 4 months later engaged, that's crazy! Honestly, no, I'm not like that though. I've already been married and had children and am 44 so it's a kind of different scenario to being young and starting out. Also, we're almost 7 years in now... so it's only in the last 2-3 years I've been getting antsy about it.
> 
> He's hard to pin down and communicate with. He doesn't really answer.


If you want to reply directly to a person, click on the "quote" button on the right, just below their post. It will copy their post as a quote. Then you can write your reply to them. See how your words are in a "quote box"? that's that it looks like.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> If you want to reply directly to a person, click on the "quote" button on the right, just below their post. It will copy their post as a quote.


You can also delete any part of the quoted post text that you don't want to include in your post. It seems like people don't know this and you find yourself looking at walls of duplicate quoted text.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

It is clear as day that you and this man have different values. You think the institution of marriage is important and he does not. This is a fundamentally different world view. 

There's no right or wrong here, just different and non-negotiable needs. Time to part company. If you pressure him to marry you, it will damage your relationship. If you stay and accept cohabitation without a contract, it will damage your relationship. Just look at your plan to pull back on affection. That is a surefire start to the relationship circling the bowl. 

He does not need to learn any lessons and you don't need to accept that marriage is "just a piece of paper." If you are truly honest with yourself, the choices of this reluctant man so far past what you deem to be a "reasonable" amount of time have most likely already negatively tainted the whole endeavor for you anyway.

The great task for the future is to truly know yourself, in a brutally honest way. There are many things that you want in a relationship. Some are negotiable and some are deal breakers. Since marriage seems to be a deal breaker for you, you really should have been able to see a long time ago that you and this man are fundamentally incompatible. Think back. You knew this was a real problem with this man and you chose to live in denial. 

Know what you must have and refuse to compromise on the fundamentals. If something is going to fail, it's best that it fail as soon as possible.

Good luck finding what you are looking for.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ell said:


> > _Then move out and make him do all the heavy lifting and courting and all that he should be willing to do. Be sweet and kind the whole time. You do not want to drive him away._
> 
> 
> Agree. Other people are saying this too in the thread and I guess that's all I can do. So sad that it comes to that after 7 years. And I think if I'm forced to do that there'll be no going back. Deep down I feel this massive hurt at what's happened and I don't think I'll be able to forgive. Ultimately I just want him to really love me and care about what's important to me and I'm so sad that he's proving that he doesn't.
> ...


The best thing that you could do at this time is to focus on yourself and your children. What you say you will do there is good. But you need to let the resentment go. Do what you want to do.

He's expecting you to behave in a way consistent from your normal behavior. For example he will expect you to keep bringing up that you want to be married. Or, if you don't bring it up, he'll expect you to harbor some resentment. Let go of it. Do not bring it up now. Do not harbor resentment, as hard as that is.

Instead look at yourself and your life and start moving enthusiastically to the next phase. The only person you have control over is yourself. So start fixing your self.

Right it's pretty clear that there will be no marriage. So what do you want to do if he does not want to get married? Do you want to accept the status quo? Or do you want to move on, all on your own? Make that choice and start working towards it. And don't tell him what you are doing, even if he asks because you are not in a good place emotionally to have that conversation. Somewhere down the road you will be.

Just work on you. Become a better version of yourself. All else will follow.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*If you still love him with all of your heart and soul, then what is remotely wrong with asking him?

Not to intend crassness, but if he either says no, or only offers you some kind of placating gibberish while continuing intoning " a no," then it's long past time to tell him to take a hike, and break his faulty schoolboy mantra of "Why marry the cow now that I'm getting 'the milk' for free?"*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ell (Oct 4, 2016)

Thank you all so much for your replies.

For the record, I DID go the birthday last night (I was the cake picker upper) and we had sex this morning and I was his sounding board for the interminable decision making process about what to do about the air conditioning... so my plan to cool off a bit isn't within my capabilities obviously and as someone said a convert contract is a terrible idea. 

Yes, I shouldn't care what people think, that's something I need to work on. Why should it matter to me what a bunch of acquaintances think about it??? 

In Australia, legally I think I actually do have all the rights associated with marriage, it's termed 'defacto'. But that is not the issue at all for me. And yes, I agree with the person who said he was selfish for suddenly wanting children at this stage. He's full of faults to be honest, but a lot of people are and I accept him despite them and he lots of compensating qualities I love. Also, pretty sure that if IVF had been successful, he would have done the marriage thing on the spot overnight. In any case, in Australia, you wouldn't even need to be married, the contract and paternal responsibility is implicit in the fact that you are together. 

Boiling it down, everyone's advice is to accept that he won't marry me and put up with it. Or issue an ultimatum and then leave. Or accept that he's a jerk and move on. Even the suggestions about calmly stating my position, giving him space, proposing myself (WON'T BE DOING THAT however in a sense of course I've already 'proposed' by asking him to ask me to marry him) many of which I have already done - even these sane and sensible suggestions in the end boil down to these awful choices.

I guess I do need to have that frank discussion about WHY he hasn't. He's vaguely stated that he will one day.... but not WHEN. In our nursing home??? We could have a funeral-wedding??? He is not a good communicator and I'm loathe to force this conversation and really get down to the nuts and bolts of when and why... kinda wrecks the mood. It should be a romantic thing that happens joyfully and willingly! It's like pulling the wings off a butterfly to know if it can fly. But I guess that's all I can do.


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## ell (Oct 4, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> If I'm being honest, your FIRST mistake was agreeing to go through extensive fertility procedures to have a baby with someone who doesn't deem you worthy of making the ultimate commitment. That's a crock of bull that 'agreeing to have a child IS a commitment.' He knows full well he can take off anytime he likes and his only 'commitment' would be child support and every other weekend visitation while *you* would end up being a late in life mother with a baby whose going to graduate high school when you're retirement age. Sure, he could do that if you were married as well, but in his mind, not being married affords him a much cleaner and quicker break for it.
> 
> I really don't understand why you'd do that for someone who isn't even willing to make the ultimate commit to YOU. It'd be a cold day in Hell before I'd do that for any man in my 40's, much less one who felt I should do it without being married to him. I think it's pretty pitiful that this guy is 50 years old and suddenly started crying about wanting kids so late in life. He just sounds so unbelievably selfish.
> 
> ...


I know he can be a real **** ... but everyone is flawed and there really are lots of good thing about him that I love. I could dump this relationship and go through all the inevitable turmoil, and then e-v-e-n-t-u-a-l-l-y meet someone else (possibly not though, as I don't fall in love easily and there are less and less men available as you get into your forties, let's be realistic) and then discover three years down the track that the NEW guy is a **** too in his own way... faults and flaws take time to manifest). If I leave this relationship, it's very possible I will never be in another one, that's the cold reality.

I know it seems crazy to do the IVF without the commitment, but I felt like it was ME who the gun to my head... you can't delay it for a second after you've made the decision to do it. Had there been viable eggs and it was crunch time... no fertilising would have happened before the MARRIAGE CEREMONY. I would have practically done it in the IVF clinic. That would be my 'cold day in Hell' moment.


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## ell (Oct 4, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *If you still love him with all of your heart and soul, then what is remotely wrong with asking him?
> 
> Not to intend crassness, but if he either says no, or only offers you some kind of placating gibberish while continuing intoning " a no," then it's long past time to tell him to take a hike, and break his faulty schoolboy mantra of "Why marry the cow now that I'm getting 'the milk' for free?"*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Somehow, even in this day and age, it's still a man's thing to do. It just is. And also he is the type of guy who will really only be enthusiastic about something if it's his idea. I really wouldn't want to have him accept my proposal because he knows the only other option is to break up and then I'm doing all the wedding organising in the face of his reluctance and it's all my idea and he's my hesitant groom that I wangled into marrying me.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

ell said:


> ... he is the type of guy who will really only be enthusiastic about something if it's his idea. I really wouldn't want to have him accept my proposal because he knows the only other option is to break up ...
> 
> ... then I'm doing all the wedding organising in the face of his reluctance and it's all my idea and he's my hesitant groom that I wangled into marrying me.


I think you have your answer. It seems he's made it pretty clear that he doesn't want to marry now. Someday ... maybe, maybe not. Although you are getting frustrated waiting for him to propose, it sounds like it's the situation as it stands and you'll have to accept it. 

You're right that you may never find another relationship if you leave or you may wind up with a jerk. But would it be so terrible to not be in a relationship? Do you think you might be sticking it out with this man, even though he may never propose, because you fear living the rest of your life without him or any other man? It just sounds to me that you may be staying out of fear; trying to convince yourself that hanging in there is better than ...???


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Hey @ell, I think you're a really brilliant woman with a good sense of self and that you've been through your share of internal emotional battles. You seem to me as a woman just waiting for her heyday, like you've done more than your part, gone over and above, for a long time and you just want your man to make you feel like all that effort and love wasn't in vain or misspent on the wrong guy. The way this would confirm it for you is if he proposed. 

If I'm anywhere close to the mark in what I think, then I know exactly what being in that place feels like. If I'm way off, please blast me away for my ignorance. 

If proposing to him is not an option, is it because it would only prevent you from really knowing if he'd ever do it himself? Are you worried he might hesitate in giving a response? Are you worried he'd reply in the negative? Is the question, "will you marry me?" scary if it comes from you, because it may tip the otherwise stable apple cart of your relationship?

I'm just trying to get a better understanding.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

ell said:


> I could dump this relationship and go through all the inevitable turmoil, and then e-v-e-n-t-u-a-l-l-y meet someone else (possibly not though, as I don't fall in love easily and there are less and less men available as you get into your forties, let's be realistic) and then discover three years down the track that the NEW guy is a **** too in his own way... faults and flaws take time to manifest). If I leave this relationship, it's very possible I will never be in another one, that's the cold reality.


So in other words, you're settling.

Listen, FWIW, many of us DO settle for someone. My wife is responsive desire, and never truly initiates sex, or sexual contact, or talks about sex, or cares about sex. In every other way, she's amazing. But when it comes to that, I settle for it (and therefore her, in the grand scheme of things).

And that's what you have to rectify in your own brain - you WILL be settling for him. You already are. You desire a man to WANT to marry you, to propose (preferably romantically), and to be happy and proud to be your husband. You do not have that, and even if he does eventually propose, you will always (as you alluded to) think that it's because you pressured him into doing it.

So your desire to have a man sweep you off your feet, propose marriage unexpectedly, WANT to be married, and married to you - that ship has sailed, as far as he is concerned. It has not gone how you've hoped, and it never will.

Likewise, I was heavily invested with my wife before it became apparent she was responsive desire, sexually. Things like that are not usually manifested until deep into a relationship, and especially before living together. By that time, obviously, we had bonded over many other things, and were very committed to each other. It's not something I would blow up my marriage over, but at the same time, if it was known to me early on, then perhaps I would have gone another direction. Who knows. Doesn't really matter, TBH. Marriage is solid otherwise.

And this is the point you're at now, I imagine. Something that is of great importance to you is not to him, and it likely never will be. I feel your pain. You have a partner whom you love and are committed to and have a life with, but you don't see eye-to-eye on something that is of great importance to you. Me too. And probably many others here, and IRL. That doesn't mean it can't and won't work. I have a partner who isn't capable of desiring sex, and I'll never have a wife who jumps me, or initiates, or even recognizes the importance of this matter to me. There's no spontaneity, no fooling around on the couch, I don't ever get touched unless I initiate first, and only then in response to me touching her, etc. And only in the bedroom. If I initiate anywhere else, it's rebuffed immediately. etc etc etc. It is what it is, and you're best to wrap your brain around that.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

I heard once that if a guy is really into you, he will ask you to marry him within 6 months.

Now, that might be younger guys. We all cool our jets a bit as we get older.

But when I first heard that piece of info., I had that sudden feeling of, "that's the truth".

It's all very egalitarian to think that women can ask guys to marry them; and it's just the same as when men ask women.

I don't think it is the same. @ell you touched on this when you said that he likes to be the one who comes up with an idea or plan---he doesn't like to be told what to do.

I think that is a lot more common in men than we admit anymore.

I wouldn't ask him to marry me, if I were in your shoes. Because just by reading your posts, I can tell how much you emotionally need *him* to ask *you*. If you ask, even if he says yes; I think you'll always be wondering if he *really* wanted to, for his own sake.

I'm so glad you didn't have kids with him. Men have a longer window of opportunity to have kids. But if they diddle around until 50; then they usually only have kids if they marry a much younger woman. Makes sense. *You* had kids when you were young enough to do so. He should have done the same if he wanted kids. Time waits for no-one.


Btw, when I started living with my (now) husband, I mentally told myself that if we weren't planning on getting married in three years; I would leave.

At the 2-1/2 year mark, I got religious, and told him I was leaving THEN if we didn't get married.

He was already latently religious himself; he went and got the marriage license the next day.

I would not do it that way again. I'm sure he did it because if I had left; he would have been stuck paying the bills on his own---not splitting them in half with me. Not that he didn't love me; but I think he would have been happy to continue on unmarried.

And it's always been something I look back on with insecurity. And I know, I know: it's my fault. I was too stupid/inexperienced back then to fully understand myself.

So, for some of us, marriage is WAY more than "just a piece of paper". The willingness and desire to get married means something. And the lack of desire/lack of interest in getting married speaks volumes too.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I heard once that if a guy is really into you, he will ask you to marry him within 6 months.
> 
> Now, that might be younger guys. We all cool our jets a bit as we get older.
> 
> ...


I agree with you here. Certainly some guys would find it flattering to be asked to marry but I wouldn't. That would be a huge deal breaker to me. I may just be more traditional than most but I still hold the belief that this is something a guy does if that's what he wants. So to the OP either you agree with this or you recognize that he wouldn't accept a purposal coming from you. Either way follow your instinct on that one and don't ask.


I still do think and now you realize you have to find out what and why he doesn't want to be married. Can't really give advice and you can't determine a course of action without knowing what is going on in his head.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

It might help you in the long term to try to stop labeling him negatively due to his differing needs. He is not a "jerk" as you say because he does not want to marry you any more than you are because you demand marriage. They are simply different needs. Wildly incompatible needs. Mutually exclusive needs. 

There is no moral high ground in this issue. You are both foolish to continue this relationship which looks to be sailing at high speed right into the jetty. Only one of you can get what he/she wants, and the other will clearly end up unhappy and resentful. You both have allowed this fundamental mismatch to continue far beyond its logical lifespan. 

It is very tempting to vilify and blame the other person when they fail to meet our needs. It has a satisfying quality in the short term, but it usually only results in us failing to take responsibility for our own happiness and taking the necessary actions to improve our lives. 

Life doesn't just happen to most of us. We are the architects of the situations in which we find ourselves. When the outcome is not favorable, it is our responsibility to make new choices. Failure to act is yet another choice.

There are no guarantees and some of us will never create the life we want. All we can do is keep trying. Even the right choice often comes with some negative outcome.

Stop waiting for someone else to fulfill your wishes. Your life is in your power alone.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I heard once that if a guy is really into you, he will ask you to marry him within 6 months.


I heard once that there is a fat guy with a beard and a red suit who flies in a sled and delivers presents to every child in the entire world on one particular night of the year. 

I have long since learned not to believe everything I hear.


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## ell (Oct 4, 2016)

Satya said:


> Hey @ell, I think you're a really brilliant woman with a good sense of self and that you've been through your share of internal emotional battles. You seem to me as a woman just waiting for her heyday, like you've done more than your part, gone over and above, for a long time and you just want your man to make you feel like all that effort and love wasn't in vain or misspent on the wrong guy. The way this would confirm it for you is if he proposed.
> 
> If I'm anywhere close to the mark in what I think, then I know exactly what being in that place feels like. If I'm way off, please blast me away for my ignorance.


Haha Satya you're very close to the mark. Spot on. Especially about me being a really brilliant woman ; ) After thinking about it, I do believe if I orchestrated the whole thing with a frank discussion and extreme diplomatic skills, he would go along with it and be fine about it and we'd be married. Or if I raised the roof and staged a show and moved out he wouldn't want to lose me. But I hate drama, life's too short. And as you say, I want the confirmation, the gesture of him willingly initiating it. 

I guess this is similar to the whole IVF thing. After we'd been dating for about 6 months, he raised the idea of me moving in with him, and maybe one day having a child together. Someone said that after 6 months a guy will propose if he's really into you; I think THERE was my 'proposal'. That was BIG coming from him, he's very cagey and cautious and a commitment phobe. You asked me why I thought I was different, that's why - he hadn't done that before with anybody. Also I think it was the timing - he just finally accepted the fact he wasn't immune to time. Before that I guess he thought he would be forever 29 with his whole life ahead of him. Also we are very compatible.

So after another 6 months, I moved in with my children. I am just as happy without more children. I had 3 gorgeous children already, but another one would have been great ... IF that's the way the path went. Once or twice he faintly raised the idea of children again... but he wasn't sure if he wanted them or not. During that time he had serious dramas with his own father (difficult relationship there) and decided he DIDN'T want them (he admitted that recently). I TOTALLY left the decision to him. I said to him once or twice that HE needed to be one hundred percent sure to have a child at any stage, let alone so late in life. I think he was waiting for me to push it and make the decision for him. So finally, when it was too late, he was 100% certain and wanted to do IVF. 

He's bad with decisions and communication. If I hold him down and sit on him and try to make him communicate he goes cagey and indecisive and retreats under the couch.


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## ell (Oct 4, 2016)

alexm said:


> So in other words, you're settling.
> 
> Listen, FWIW, many of us DO settle for someone. My wife is responsive desire, and never truly initiates sex, or sexual contact, or talks about sex, or cares about sex. In every other way, she's amazing. But when it comes to that, I settle for it (and therefore her, in the grand scheme of things).
> 
> ...


You're right, that ship has sailed! Actually you are totally right. But I'm happy for the lesser ship too...which is him thinking ok, she's made it clear this is important to her, I'll step up and do it. 

I feel for you about the responsive desire thing. It must be tough. But I agree with you about many people settling. I think that's being realistic. I think there's only a tiny proportion of problem free people and/or people that are perfectly compatible to you. As long as there's joy in the relationship for both of you at least some of the time.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

@ell, I dated a younger version of your guy about 5 years ago. We'd been friends for 8 years. I loved him but he'd make major life steps at a snails pace. I kept asking him why he would allow life to pass him by. I think it was a kind of fear a headstrong woman like myself just couldn't understand (not for lack of trying).

Anyway, I haven't talked to him in 5 years, and honestly, I actually do hope my actions changed his life for the better, even if I won't enjoy those changes. I'd moved well on.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

> I heard once that if a guy is really into you, he will ask you to marry him within 6 months.





browser said:


> I heard once that there is a fat guy with a beard and a red suit who flies in a sled and delivers presents to every child in the entire world on one particular night of the year.
> 
> I have long since learned not to believe everything I hear.



No need to be snotty. I heard that statement on a "manosphere" talk radio show years ago. And I did have a touchstone moment; and it goes hand in hand with what other women have told me, and personal observations.

I appreciate your contrary opinion; but you need not deem my opinions as childish. Thank you.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

ell said:


> You're right, that ship has sailed! Actually you are totally right. But I'm happy for the lesser ship too...which is him thinking ok, she's made it clear this is important to her, I'll step up and do it.


With 7/8 billion folks on this planet, there's somebody (multiple somebodys, probably) out there that have, and are, exactly what we dreamed of. The odds that it's the person we're with, or married to, are exceedingly small.

If the good far outweighs the bad (how far is up to the individual), then we make a decision if we are capable of living with or without something we want/desire/require. Nobody ticks off ALL the boxes, and that's okay.

In other words, each of us invariably gives up something in order to be with the person we're with, and vice versa. We just have to ask ourselves if we can live with it, or not, or for how long, or if it will be an issue later in life, etc.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Do you think he might be dragging his feet because he knows you can't give him a child of his own? Maybe somewhere in the back of his mind he is purposely keeping one foot out the door thinking he'll find that opportunity with someone else?

I really hope that is not the case!


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

kag123 said:


> Do you think he might be dragging his feet because he knows you can't give him a child of his own? Maybe somewhere in the back of his mind he is purposely keeping one foot out the door thinking he'll find that opportunity with someone else?
> 
> I really hope that is not the case!


If this is the case, at 50 years old he'd better have A LOT to offer because there aren't a lot of much younger women falling over themselves to start a family with a much older man unless he's pretty great.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Livvie said:


> If this is the case, at 50 years old he'd better have A LOT to offer because there aren't a lot of much younger women falling over themselves to start a family with a much older man unless he's pretty great.


FWIW, I totally agree with you. But it sounds like a lot of this guy's thinking might not be based in reality as it is, so he may not recognize how old he currently is and how difficult it would be to find another woman who would give him children.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> No need to be snotty. I heard that statement on a "manosphere" talk radio show years ago. And I did have a touchstone moment; and it goes hand in hand with what other women have told me, and personal observations.
> 
> I appreciate your contrary opinion; but you need not deem my opinions as childish. Thank you.


My apologies for the misunderstanding, my analogy was not meant to indicate your opinions as childish in any way. It's ridiculous, unsubstantiated and false, and you are spreading it around as if you think it actually has merit and even going so far as to further defend it. 



notmyrealname4 said:


> I heard once that if a guy is really into you, he will ask you to marry him within 6 months.


Think about what you're saying for a minute. If what you posted is true, then ANY man who proposes to a woman after 6 months of meeting her, isn't really into her. Well that's a LOT of women getting married to a guy that isn't really into her.


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## ell (Oct 4, 2016)

Livvie said:


> If this is the case, at 50 years old he'd better have A LOT to offer because there aren't a lot of much younger women falling over themselves to start a family with a much older man unless he's pretty great.


Well he's very tall, which I read somewhere is attractive to women!? 

The other thing is he's quite wealthy. So I guess he does have a lot to offer to the sort of woman that would be drawn to that. He's not the type to show it off AT ALL though, in fact when I met him he actively concealed it. We'd been together for a few months and then he invited me on a family holiday, just before we went he let me know that he owned the large business I thought he just worked in.


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## ell (Oct 4, 2016)

browser said:


> Think about what you're saying for a minute. If what you posted is true, then ANY man who proposes to a woman after 6 months of meeting her, isn't really into her. Well that's a LOT of women getting married to a guy that isn't really into her.


I think maybe a better way to state the general idea is that after about 6 months or so if the relationship isn't 'serious' then he isn't really into her?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Two reasons many men fear marriage:
1. Fear of being taken for granted / treated less well than they were before marriage
2. Fear of (1) leading to a costly divorce

(1) Is best addressed via a direct conversation. First to confirm he does worry about this and then to reassure him.
(2) Is only addressable via a prenuptial agreement.

And fwiw - the agreement doesn't need to be harsh or unfair. In fact overly one sided agreements are often thrown out in court.

I don't know what your laws are like, but in most places marriage creates a more favorable outcome than being a common law wife which is what we call it in the US.






ell said:


> Well he's very tall, which I read somewhere is attractive to women!?
> 
> The other thing is he's quite wealthy. So I guess he does have a lot to offer to the sort of woman that would be drawn to that. He's not the type to show it off AT ALL though, in fact when I met him he actively concealed it. We'd been together for a few months and then he invited me on a family holiday, just before we went he let me know that he owned the large business I thought he just worked in.


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## ell (Oct 4, 2016)

kag123 said:


> Do you think he might be dragging his feet because he knows you can't give him a child of his own? Maybe somewhere in the back of his mind he is purposely keeping one foot out the door thinking he'll find that opportunity with someone else?
> 
> I really hope that is not the case!


ME TOO!!!!!

I've said that he's choosing to not have children by staying with me... he says that's ok, and he wants to be with me. He said he doesn't want anyone else. He thinks moving me and my children into his home demonstrates his commitment, which it does, I have to admit. I was living in a city 2 hours away from his, so my house is rented out and we all moved into his house.

He said marriage is not important to him, his parents got married and they divorced (he was 9 years old, this was back in 60s when divorce was less acceptable than now, it would have been traumatic). He said that I had been married and that didn't work. True :-/ 

I said it was important to me. And that sure, sometimes it doesn't work, but getting married is an intention from the heart that you will love this person for ever more, that you've found your true love. 
But I said if it's not important to him, then he shouldn't have to, there's two of us in this and it's his choice too. I did say to him the general advice people would give is for me to move out if he doesn't marry me. I said I'm not going to move out because I love him and that feels manipulative. (And I really don't want to get my proposal that way, that would feel like a pretty hollow victory.) I said I guess what I want is more verbal assurance that he loves me. 

So I'm kind of at an impasse.. For now, on the advice I've been given here... I am just going to let it go and look after myself, stay strong inwardly and live in love and a sense of being positive and joyful, rather than sink into fear and insecurity and resentment.


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## ell (Oct 4, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Two reasons many men fear marriage:
> 1. Fear of being taken for granted / treated less well than they were before marriage
> 2. Fear of (1) leading to a costly divorce
> 
> ...


I think in Australia once you've lived together for 2 years you pretty much have the same rights as if you'd been married. However I don't have the sort of personality that would extract a costly divorce it's just not me, I don't want the money that badly. In any case i wouldn't have a leg to stand on. I contributed nothing financially at all, everything he has, he had before we met, and I'm guessing it's all stitched up tightly in company trust funds or whatever (he is in business with 2 brothers, his father is the founder). I wouldn't have the gall to even try. But sure, I would sign something and he knows that.

I would always treat him well! : ) But good point to address.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ell,

What have his fathers and brothers marriages been like?




ell said:


> I think in Australia once you've lived together for 2 years you pretty much have the same rights as if you'd been married. However I don't have the sort of personality that would extract a costly divorce it's just not me, I don't want the money that badly. In any case i wouldn't have a leg to stand on. I contributed nothing financially at all, everything he has, he had before we met, and I'm guessing it's all stitched up tightly in company trust funds or whatever (he is in business with 2 brothers, his father is the founder). I wouldn't have the gall to even try. But sure, I would sign something and he knows that.
> 
> I would always treat him well! : ) But good point to address.


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## ell (Oct 4, 2016)

Satya said:


> @ell, I dated a younger version of your guy about 5 years ago. We'd been friends for 8 years. I loved him but he'd make major life steps at a snails pace. I kept asking him why he would allow life to pass him by. I think it was a kind of fear a headstrong woman like myself just couldn't understand (not for lack of trying).
> 
> Anyway, I haven't talked to him in 5 years, and honestly, I actually do hope my actions changed his life for the better, even if I won't enjoy those changes. I'd moved well on.


Yes, it is allowing life to pass you by! It IS fear! Or refusing to face the fact that time marches on. For instance he was going to buy a new house, he even *sold another one he had* so he could put the money towards this proposed new house! That was three years ago! We looked and looked and looked, it's hard work househunting! But then he was just too hesitant and couldn't make a decision. A couple of times a truly fabulous house would come up for sale and he would a-l-m-o-s-t buy it and then chicken out at the last minute. So freaking frustrating. He was looking for something that didn't exist. Like a house in Australia that is also within within walking distance to Time Square and the Eiffel Tower. Illogical! In the meantime, the house we're in doesn't feel like a long term home any more. So that search is on the back boiler. So instead he sits and watches OTHER PEOPLE house hunting on 'Escape to the Country' the most boring TV show on earth. arghgh


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

ell said:


> He said marriage is not important to him, his parents got married and they divorced (he was 9 years old, this was back in 60s when divorce was less acceptable than now, it would have been traumatic). He said that I had been married and that didn't work. True :-/
> 
> I said it was important to me. And that sure, sometimes it doesn't work, but getting married is an intention from the heart that you will love this person for ever more, that you've found your true love.
> But I said if it's not important to him, then he shouldn't have to, there's two of us in this and it's his choice too.


Ask him who he wants making medical decisions for him if he is sick or disabled and out of it - it won't be you if you are not his wife. You might not even be allowed to visit him in the hospital. He would not be able to help you, either, if you were the one who is incapacitated.

If that's not important to him and you aren't having kids, then I suppose you can keep going as you are, though if marriage IS important to you, then you're not likely to be able to just accept that he never wants to marry.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

zookeeper said:


> It might help you in the long term to try to stop labeling him negatively due to his differing needs. He is not a "jerk" as you say because he does not want to marry you any more than you are because you demand marriage. They are simply different needs. Wildly incompatible needs. Mutually exclusive needs.
> 
> There is no moral high ground in this issue. You are both foolish to continue this relationship which looks to be sailing at high speed right into the jetty. Only one of you can get what he/she wants, and the other will clearly end up unhappy and resentful. You both have allowed this fundamental mismatch to continue far beyond its logical lifespan.
> 
> ...


I very much agree with this post.. this IS the hard reality...

Speaking for myself ...when I was younger.. I literally got down on my knees & prayed for a good man, a man who wanted a family, who loved me for me, wanted all of me, as his wife.....this was my dream...I sought another who BELIEVED in and valued marriage... otherwise.. it just wouldn't have worked.. I was stubborn!!.. these were my ideals...
Back then this wasn't so hard to find though .. but today.. God help women who still care!...

I feel for my own daughter on this one.. it's just a different world today..


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

This is a difference in love languages issue.

You view marriage as the ultimate expression of love, and as long as he avoids marriage, you have festering doubts that he really truly deeply loves you.

He views marriage as a trap, as a denial of possibilities, as decision-making he doesn't appear to be very good at. He's paralyzed by the thought that there's the tiniest possibility he's making the wrong decision and so he would rather make no decision at all. It has nothing to do with his love for you.

You both need to understand yourselves AND be able to communicate this to one another.


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## FizzBomb (Dec 31, 2013)

ell,

In my experience, if a man wants to marry you - they will. They will make it happen. Many moons ago I had a boyfriend (incidentally, very controlling and possessive) who tried to railroad me into marrying him. He was deadset on getting me to the altar lol and I didn't want any part of it so I got out of that relationship quick smart.

Given what you have written here, and your boyfriend's past relationship history - he doesn't want to get married. Maybe never. The two of you have been together for 7 years with the biological clock ticking and at the eleventh hour he wants a child. Sounds like he says just enough to keep you around and make it seem like he's committed. Another example of this faux committing, the househunting - giving you some hope then deciding that he doesn't want to buy a home together after all. I don't know about you but I would be worn out emotionally by now.

I think he is happy with the status quo. If he wasn't he would have done something about it.

You're not happy with the status quo. Do you want to do something about it?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

FizzBomb said:


> ell,
> 
> In my experience, if a man wants to marry you - they will. They will make it happen.


Totally agree.

With the right man, OP, this will all be effortless--for _you._
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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