# The Bigger Picture... Them Versus Us



## Ben Connedfussed (May 4, 2012)

To the cheaters...Most say in our world, "I'd kill for You!" Most would die for "You" with so forth and so on sentences. In a reality situation, who would YOU stand for when "IT" all came down?... Just wondering...The SPOUSE or the lover? Probably the lover, because you can not love the spouse if you cheat on him or her!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I don't get your question?

Are you asking us if we would stand by our spouse or our lover? 

Why the assumption that everyone here is a cheater?


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

I think that other then my kids the rest of the world would get the middle finger. They are what I would die for period.

You know what gets me is songs with unrealistic lyrics like; "I would take a gran aid for ya." Are you kidding me? Really take said person to a haunted house and watch as they throw you in front of them when a fake zombie comes at them. 
I get pissed at movies and songs that portray a unrealistic ideal at our younger population although I am fully entertained by both (Guilty of that). I just know better. 

My husband could do much better if he sang to me, "I will mow the lawn for ya." or "Run a hot bath for ya." give me real not this little fairy tale training stuff that makes living in the real world so hard for people. 

I am going to be here saying sorry because I am in a mood tonight in fact this is the second one already.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

I think he's drunk typing.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

morituri said:


> I think he's drunk typing.


Ya,his posts are getting a little confusing to me.:scratchhead:


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## Ben Connedfussed (May 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I don't get your question?
> 
> Are you asking us if we would stand by our spouse or our lover?
> 
> Why the assumption that everyone here is a cheater?


I did not and do not assume that everyone here is a cheater. It is apparent that most are here to get educated on this matter, and try to make sense out of it, "A bigger picture." so to speak! However, I am aware that some who are here have cheated on their spouses in prior relationships or the present ones. This question is directed to them!


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Ben, I know you're hurting, but try to calm down. Try not to project your anger on to the former waywards here, especially the ones trying to help others.


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## TorontoBoyWest (May 1, 2012)

morituri said:


> I think he's drunk typing.


Thank god I didnt give him my number


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

My wife.


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## Ben Connedfussed (May 4, 2012)

morituri said:


> I think he's drunk typing.


Drunk typing... no! Just a total breakdown after finally realizing I have been fooling myself all along. I restructured the question. I put this thread up after I had a conversation with a 'friend' if you will, who just admitted he cheated on his spouse. He is now crying because he knows his spouse cheated on him...WHAT THE F**K! I told him he was better off just leaving. Get the H*LL out of the marriage and hope for better in the future. He stated he could not get past this one... her cheating on him because he still loves her. "CAKE AND EAT IT, TOO!" situation. So confusing on my behalf. Total break down because I never guessed in a million years that 'they' even had a problem. How can we as people say we love our spouses, but... "I cheated on him/her." Dual roles here at work. I think affairs are all about the sex. Nothing more, nothing less. Further more, some want that cake and eat it, too... only to come back to the spouse and say, "I'm sorry. I love you and hope we can work things out." Nothing less than hormones and 'wh*re moans' to me!


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## Ben Connedfussed (May 4, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> Ben, I know you're hurting, but try to calm down. Try not to project your anger on to the former waywards here, especially the ones trying to help others.


I am sorry and do apologize to all parties involved.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Ben Connedfussed said:


> Drunk typing... no! Just a total breakdown after finally realizing I have been fooling myself all along. I restructured the question. I put this thread up after I had a conversation with a 'friend' if you will, who just admitted he cheated on his spouse. He is now crying because he knows his spouse cheated on him...WHAT THE F**K! I told him he was better off just leaving. Get the H*LL out of the marriage and hope for better in the future. He stated he could not get past this one... her cheating on him because he still loves her. "CAKE AND EAT IT, TOO!" situation. So confusing on my behalf. Total break down because I never guessed in a million years that 'they' even had a problem. How can we as people say we love our spouses, but... "I cheated on him/her." Dual roles here at work. I think affairs are all about the sex. Nothing more, nothing less. Further more, some want that cake and eat it, too... only to come back to the spouse and say, "I'm sorry. I love you and hope we can work things out." Nothing less than hormones and 'wh*re moans' to me!


It is ironic that cheaters really really really hate to be cheated on.

The OW was insanely jealous of the female clients my husband has to meet with for work. She was always afraid he would cheat with someone else. 

My husband, too, is trying as we speak to see If I am cheating on him. He hacked into my email, put a key logger on my computer and calls me on the phone constantly.

I mean seriously, the last thing on my mind right now is having sex with someone I barely know. Geez, never could do that and never will.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

We're scared of the karma bus...


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## Ben Connedfussed (May 4, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> It is ironic that cheaters really really really hate to be cheated on.
> 
> The OW was insanely jealous of the female clients my husband has to meet with for work. She was always afraid he would cheat with someone else.
> 
> ...


I feel the same way, Sara8. I never rushed into any relationship with someone and needed to 'feel' something for that person emotional beforehand. Guessing I'm not the sex fiend. Souses who cheat are a different sort. I really do not think they realize just how deeply the BH/BW are hurt. It really messes the head up. I have never been complacent about adultery, always hating when I knew someone had been betrayed. And to hear the same story over and over... "But I don't want to loose her/him, I still love them." Just too much for me to believe. Very selfish, indeed!


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

I'm not a cheater but if he'd said he would die for me or whatever, it wouldn't matter. I don't need anyone to die for me, I can take care of myself. Other people weren't put on the earth to lick my feet. The last thing in the world I'd want is for a cheater to put me first, doing something for me when they can't even take care of their own life and get it 'right'.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Ben Confused, I guess I must be drunk, too in spite of not having a drink in the last eight months.
I understood your question from the git-go since it was obviously directed to the few cheaters on this board.
I guess I must be set in my ways since I would try to help anybody
except for my ex since I don't feel she deserves anymore from me.
(She ended up with everything and it's all on her for losing it)


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Ben Connedfussed said:


> I feel the same way, Sara8. I never rushed into any relationship with someone and needed to 'feel' something for that person emotional beforehand. Guessing I'm not the sex fiend. Souses who cheat are a different sort. I really do not think they realize just how deeply the BH/BW are hurt. It really messes the head up. I have never been complacent about adultery, always hating when I knew someone had been betrayed. And to hear the same story over and over... "But I don't want to loose her/him, I still love them." Just too much for me to believe. Very selfish, indeed!


Hi Ben:

I accidentally hit the unlike button and hit the like again. 

In any case, my husband also apparently needs and emotional connection for sex. That is what really bothers me. He was treating her so respectfully and he was actually treating her more special than he treats me.

He wooed this OW for a long time before going away on a fake men's only camping trip with her. 

He also lied about boy's night out. He was usually with her on those nights. 

One trip that I have proof of was to a posh hotel in San Francisco, while I sat home alone, paying the bills. There were other trips, too.

He had encouraged me to go out to dinner with friends and such while he was away, likely to ease guilt, but we were saving for him to start a third business. 

This woman was high maintenance and demanded gifts and got them. My husband is the type that can't remember birthdays or anniversaries. I never cared and excepted that was who he was. Gifts are nice, but they are not important to me. I would have liked to get them, but accepted that he was not a mushy sort of guy, or so I thought. 

The emails between the two of them were mushy and that is one very upsetting thing because he always claimed to hate girly girls who needed the guy to talk mushy to them.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> We're scared of the karma bus...


That is interesting. Thank you for mentioning that. 

Do you think you could ever have another affair?

Do you regret the affair? 

Do you still lust after the OW, now that you are out of the fog. 

My husband said some really insulting things to ewhile in the fog. Things that are difficult to take back given that there was an OW in the picture.

Things like he loved me and I was his wife, but he didn't think of me in a sexual way as he did with the other women. He said I was intellectual and she was fun. 

The counselor did point out to him that the fun part was because the relationship was not taking place in the real world. Still......


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> That is interesting. Thank you for mentioning that.
> 
> Do you think you could ever have another affair?
> 
> ...


But, in my case (my responses to your questions were the blue).... my husband DID have his own EA after mine. It was even after mine was over and I was trying to figure out WTF I was doing. I had already planned to leave, not even at the behest of the AP, but on my own because of the lack of communication on both sides, and I didn't handle his psychological diagnoses well...still, no excuse. I should have done a LOT of things differently. And when he had his EA... his pedestal toppled over. Even with his "damaged" state, with his mental problems, I think I still kept him on the pedestal, thinking he'd never cheat. I know better, now. And we are working on fixing what *I* broke in the first place... he just followed my lead in it, unfortunately. But, to answer what you asked, Sara, I won't do it again. My actions were stupid, and nearly cost me too much.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> That is interesting. Thank you for mentioning that.
> 
> Do you think you could ever have another affair?


Well I never thought I could have the first affair so I don't totally trust myself with the answer - never will again. What I can tell you is that I would rather walk over broken glass, chew my appendages off and have an IRS audit than cheat again. This will sound cold, but regardless of what it did to anyone else, the prices I paid were too much to ever make it worth it. People cheating think they are only hurting others - if they have a conscious they have no idea of what they are inflicting on themselves. Of course a huge part of what you inflict on yourself is having to live with what you did to others for your own selfish jollies. It's really all a great big old bag of crapola that I want no part of ever again. 



Sara8 said:


> Do you regret the affair?


More than every other bad thing I've done in my life put together times 1,000. I let everyone down - most of all myself. 



Sara8 said:


> Do you still lust after the OW, now that you are out of the fog.


No - I do not lust after her at all. I have struggled with thinking of her, with her being a presence in my mind but I do not lust for her or have any desire to reestablish a relationship with her. Trying to get her out of my head is what sent me here to TAM in the first place - a link to that thread is in my signature if you're interested. Back then the OW was still very much on my mind and in my thoughts. She's still in my head today but it's more like a haunting, there's no emotion really attached to her when she pops into my head - she's just there and then gone - it's kinda weird. Thankfully those instances are getting farther and fewer between.



Sara8 said:


> My husband said some really insulting things to ewhile in the fog. Things that are difficult to take back given that there was an OW in the picture.
> 
> Things like he loved me and I was his wife, but he didn't think of me in a sexual way as he did with the other women. He said I was intellectual and she was fun.
> 
> The counselor did point out to him that the fun part was because the relationship was not taking place in the real world. Still......


People in affair fog can do some really stupid stuff - no doubt. There is no excuse for it. You were competing with his imagination, not a real woman - hard to do. I hope he's truly remorseful and doing everything he can to prove that to you.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Ben Connedfussed said:


> I feel the same way, Sara8. I never rushed into any relationship with someone and needed to 'feel' something for that person emotional beforehand. Guessing I'm not the sex fiend. Souses who cheat are a different sort. I really do not think they realize just how deeply the BH/BW are hurt. It really messes the head up. I have never been complacent about adultery, always hating when I knew someone had been betrayed. And to hear the same story over and over... "But I don't want to loose her/him, I still love them." Just too much for me to believe. Very selfish, indeed!


I have found that people's attitude and respect for the sex act is a continuum. At one end, we find the Jerry Springer types, for whom sex is merely a pleasurable bodily function(like taking a good dump) with no significance. At the other end are those who remain chaste until marriage. Most folks are somewhere in between.
I think that with cheaters. like , for example, copdoc's wife who is involved with a much younger man who is her trainer, sex is just something that feels good-nothing more.
Most cheaters, IMO, are closer to the Jerry Springer end of the continuum. This includes women, but there is some sort of societal denial going on where folks do not just want to look at women as being as sexual as they are.
This whole "need for an emotional connection" myth is just that. I cannot begin to count the number of times, in my decent looking youth, that women approached me just for sex.
And, this cougar deal, as copdoc's wife is doing and many other women are doing: think there is much of an emotional connection with these youthful sex machines? No, it is endurance and physicality that are the draws.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

BigLiam said:


> I have found that people's attitude and respect for the sex act is a continuum. At one end, we find the Jerry Springer types, for whom sex is merely a pleasurable bodily function(like taking a good dump) with no significance. At the other end are those who remain chaste until marriage. Most folks are somewhere in between.
> I think that with cheaters. like , for example, copdoc's wife who is involved with a much younger man who is her trainer, sex is just something that feels good-nothing more.
> Most cheaters, IMO, are closer to the Jerry Springer end of the continuum. This includes women, but there is some sort of societal denial going on where folks do not just want to look at women as being as sexual as they are.
> This whole "need for an emotional connection" myth is just that. I cannot begin to count the number of times, in my decent looking youth, that women approached me just for sex.
> And, this cougar deal, as copdoc's wife is doing and many other women are doing: think there is much of an emotional connection with these youthful sex machines? No, it is endurance and physicality that are the draws.


Ok, I can see what you're saying... but it sounds to be that you consider "emotional affairs" to be a cop-out... not a real affair. Did I misunderstand you on that? Because I view EA as very real, very detrimental... and I have seen it from BOTH sides. Not trying to start an argument, just want to see where you stand on it.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

I think , for me, an EA would have hurt me just as much. 
I do not subscribe, however, to the idea that we are all capable of cheating. I do think cheaters occupy a lower rung on the moral ladder ,and that , generally, if you look at other areas of their lives, you will find they lack integrity in them, as well.
IMO, cheaters are, fundamentally, different than non-cheaters in their characters.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

OK, the reason I asked... I was brought up to believe in monogamy in a relationship. I still believe that way. It wasn't until I messed up in my coping skills (all me, I place no blame on my husband. He has no control over a chemical imbalance that they are still trying to get under control), that I even began, or even THOUGHT of, EA. The only good thing, I guess you could say... I was given opportunities to have PAs... and the thought made me sick to my stomach. I knew I could never have sex with any man, other than my husband. I knew that if I were ever to have sex with another man, I would divorce my husband first. And that was not something I was willing to do. But I also need to figure out WHY I felt the need to get this extra attention. My husband's mental problems are an excuse, not a reason. And, I may not ever find out why I did it. I have always been content, lying in the shadows... 

Anyway, my point is that it's not always cut and dry. I think you are correct in the "levels"... but there are various levels in character in every person. But that's my opinion. And it's how I see my husband as well. I don't view him as a cheater. He is a man, who made a wrong choice... and this is where it led him: an EA of his own.


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## Ben Connedfussed (May 4, 2012)

I like the post in this thread, for many reasons... the major one being that the posts have give me a greater understanding of things. I do know that EAs are somewhat different in nature from PAs, however some, if not the majority of spouses judge EAs as being just as dishonest and lowdown as PAs and can't say I blame them for the way they feel. Not all EAs move to PAs, however it would seem a large percentage of PAs have no emotional connection whatsoever. "Just in it for the sex." I would say. I look at a large number of people who do cheat as using the EAs as a stepping stone to get the PAs going, to hook the person of their desire in. But in essence, using the person and getting what they wish... sex! Spouses should be on their guards when they see that EA forming. Nip it in the bud. I have heard, too, some remark to me with this statement, "Dang, I was stupid! He/she was just using me." For one to be one their guard, they could save themselves a heck of a lot of trouble, not to mention the heartaches and pain with all parties involved, epecially the children and innocent spouses!


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## Ben Connedfussed (May 4, 2012)

hookares said:


> Ben Confused, I guess I must be drunk, too in spite of not having a drink in the last eight months.
> I understood your question from the git-go since it was obviously directed to the few cheaters on this board.
> I guess I must be set in my ways since I would try to help anybody
> except for my ex since I don't feel she deserves anymore from me.
> (She ended up with everything and it's all on her for losing it)


Thank you for your post. I did clarify the question. I looked at all the post, and even know myself that after taking a once over again... I can say that with all the weird crap which has happened recently in my life, i.e. the RED FLAGS, etc. which were not so apparent before, that there is something going on. As a doctor would say, "If you have flu symptoms, it is more than likely the flu." These RED FLAGS started showing up. I guess I more than likely dropped the bomb on myself and said...'Open your eyes and see the light!' If these RED FLAGS were not there before, and now are... something changed, something is going on! Coming to grips with the real truth is not easy! 

For the innocent spouses, I hope after seeing the light, you find that light at the end of the tunnel as well.


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## Fvstringpicker (Mar 11, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Ok, I can see what you're saying... but it sounds to be that you consider "emotional affairs" to be a cop-out... not a real affair.


Personally I believe the so called "emotional affairs" are simply substitutes for what the two, or a least one of the two, really want to be doing (banging each others brains out) but can't quite their tryst together. People have emotional affairs with someone they want to have sex with. Remove the sexual desire and whatja have left; perhaps a good buddy with no threat to the marriage. The only difference between an "emotional affair" and real deal is place and opportunity.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> Well I never thought I could have the first affair so I don't totally trust myself with the answer - never will again. What I can tell you is that I would rather walk over broken glass, chew my appendages off and have an IRS audit than cheat again. This will sound cold, but regardless of what it did to anyone else, the prices I paid were too much to ever make it worth it. People cheating think they are only hurting others - if they have a conscious they have no idea of what they are inflicting on themselves. Of course a huge part of what you inflict on yourself is having to live with what you did to others for your own selfish jollies. It's really all a great big old bag of crapola that I want no part of ever again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for your detailed response. I know that woman have affairs for different reasons than men, so thoughts from a man are more helpful. 

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond.


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## Ben Connedfussed (May 4, 2012)

Fvstringpicker said:


> Personally I believe the so called "emotional affairs" are simply substitutes for what the two, or a least one of the two, really want to be doing (banging each others brains out) but can't quite their tryst together. People have emotional affairs with someone they want to have sex with. Remove the sexual desire and whatja have left; perhaps a good buddy with no threat to the marriage. The only difference between an "emotional affair" and real deal is place and opportunity.


You are correct. I do believe that women are more easily suckered in with this technique. And the man often is just using the ploy and mind game to get what he wants... the sex! I still believe the person who is cheating whether man or woman is the one who makes the ultimate decision to do the act. The blame is on them!


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Fvstringpicker said:


> Personally I believe the so called "emotional affairs" are simply substitutes for what the two, or a least one of the two, really want to be doing (banging each others brains out) but can't quite their tryst together. People have emotional affairs with someone they want to have sex with. Remove the sexual desire and whatja have left; perhaps a good buddy with no threat to the marriage. The only difference between an "emotional affair" and real deal is place and opportunity.


I won't deny that there is a sexual attraction. But even when you know there is no chance of ever meeting up, the betrayal is just as bad. But emotional affairs are just as real, not worthy of calling them "so called". It's a real thing. Perhaps that is why my husband doesn't want to acknowledge it. Because acknowledging it means he would have to admit that he wanted to have sex with her. Acknowledging it would mean he did something wrong... that he is just like me.

But guess what? There were plenty of men in our town who I found attractive. And they would have been willing had I given the green light. The thought of actually going through with having sex with someone other than my husband sickened me. I want to vomit just thinking of it. But the betrayal from the emotional affair was just as damaging. I told this man things that should have been between my husband and me alone. It didn't start out that way. It actually started out of concern for my husband, his health, his mental state...and progressed from there. I had NO intention of ever getting involved with this man. And yet, it happened. It was very real. I got sex from my husband, but never talked. And that's what I got from this OM. Talking. Reassurance. Telling me I was beautiful, that my husband was crazy, etc. 

Anyway, my point is that emotional affairs are very real. It's not some made up thing. It is a betrayal, just as a PA. The only difference is, as you said, location and opportunity. Yes, some of us could easily have had PA with some random person, which would have been cheating, for sure. But think about this... if we had the opportunity to have sex with someone who knew our deepest, darkest secrets... who knew how we felt about everything in our lives, not just wanting sex, it would be just as damaging, would it not? Or possibly even more, in some eyes. It would mean the other person got every part of the WS, not "just body", but mind as well. There would be nothing left for the betrayed spouse. 

That's why emotional affairs are so complicated, I think. Some see it as "just friends" talking about things... others see it as a betrayal of the marriage vows. And, tbh, only the couple knows what the boundaries are. Only YOU can decide what is acceptable for your relationship. And I think that's the point. What one person/couple may define as cheating, another person/couple may view as nothing.

Sorry for rambling! LOL


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Ben Connedfussed said:


> You are correct. I do believe that women are more easily suckered in with this technique. And the man often is just using the ploy and mind game to get what he wants... the sex! I still believe the person who is cheating whether man or woman is the one who makes the ultimate decision to do the act. *The blame is on them!*


You are absolutely correct! And I take the blame, and I have to live with that for the rest of my life. My husband has forgiven me. He truly has, but it is SO hard to forgive myself... and "all" I did was talk to this OM. He lives over 1000 miles away, no chance of ever meeting. And yet, I have a hard time forgiving myself for the emotional attachment I had with him. My husband, however... I forgave him, but he doesn't see what he did as actually being a bad thing. He did the EXACT SAME THING! So how do I reconcile that? He forgives me, I forgive him, I can't forgive myself, and he sees no need to be forgiven (himself). And neither of us ever had sex with anyone else.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

BigLiam said:


> I think , for me, an EA would have hurt me just as much.
> I do not subscribe, however, to the idea that we are all capable of cheating. I do think cheaters occupy a lower rung on the moral ladder ,and that , generally, if you look at other areas of their lives, you will find they lack integrity in them, as well.
> IMO, cheaters are, fundamentally, different than non-cheaters in their characters.


Yes, Liam, the emotional aspects of my husband's affair hurt me just as much and maybe more than the physical attraction. 

I think I can understand someone getting carried away with a sexual tryst, but the emotional connection my husband showed in the emails that were sent to me anonymously really hurt. 

In them, they were both complaining about silly things as if they were really important and justified the affair. 

They were wanting to be with each other right now.

Some of these conversations took place as my husband was laying right next to me in bed. 

In some cases, he would provoke and argument so he could leave the room and isolate himself to email her.

He was telling her his future plans and obviously trying to impress her in a way he never bothered to impress me.


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