# New member, in need of help...really badly. Having a tough time



## TahoeGuy

*In need of help -- Updated thread. Page 2*

Hello all,

I don't even know where to begin. I'll start off by saying that I'm a wreck. 

Background: 

Me: 32yr old white male. Raised from a poor family, dad was a drunk and mom was simply crazy. 
Wife: 33yr old Egyptian / Hispanic female. Parents are very cold. Stone cold. I have not seen either of them hug or kiss eachother in the nearly 20 years that I have known them. Wife had a real screwed up childhood as well. Family had money and were doing ok. 

Child: 5 years old.
Sexual history: We are the only sex partners that either of us have had. 

We were eachothers first everything from kissing to sex and sexual relations. This is no joke. 

Wife has low self-esteem issues, was very jealous, etc. I developed the same issues later on in the relationship. She blames it on me, yet the problem existed while we were dating. Never thought much of it. 

We started dating when we were 15 and 16, married at 18 and 19. Purchased our first home 3 hours prior to getting married at the local courthouse. 


Something brought us together, madly in love, married, got a house, on our feet and started with literally nothing. Turned a crappy house into the best one on the block, sold it about 9 months ago. Made a good profit and purchased a home 3x the size of the original. 





Now to the nitty gritty: 

Shortly after we got married things were great. Sex was 3-4x / week, we got along great. We were happy to be around each other, missed each other while at work and looked forward to seeing one another at the end of the day. 

Approximately 1-1.5yrs in the marriage the sex literally dove off of a cliff. She had NO interest what so ever. I tried, begged, pleaded, you name it. Even mentioning the word "sex" would send her into a rage, a wild rage. 

There was very little physical touching: hugging, some kissing here adn there, we held hands when we went out, that was about it. I always told her she was beautiful, and tried to make her feel like a goddess. She dresses VERY conservative

I always initiated sex from day one, she never once did. The excuses ran out eventually. Headache, tired, back hurts, period, i dont like it with the lights on, I'm not wet, the neighbor's dog died, my mother is on her period, etc. You get the idea. It was anything. I eventually started poking at "what is the excuse going to be tonight?".

We would argue about sex all the time. All of my advances were rejected. I never put on weight, kept in shape, worked my A__ off while she finished up her 4 year and went back to school again to get a 2 year in another field. 

The rejection deep down was killing me. I felt like a caged animal, literally screaming and bursting at the seams for sex. I was in my early 20's and miserable. I hid my emotions with anger. We fought more. 

I begged for marriage counseling. She says she will not go and will not talk to a stranger about anything. 

I came really close to divorcing about 5 years into the marriage. I backed out as I am a man of my word. I made a promise to this woman when we took our marriage vows. I intend to keep them. I begged her to go to the dr and investigate why there was such a low sex drive. She went and gt some sort of cream. It helped but things went right back to normal. 

In the mean time rejections continue, no physical contact and I'm getting shoved away when I try to love on her. I hang in there like a good man is supposed to do. 

This begins to beat my self-esteem down. Really, really bad. Looking back now it has nearly destroyed me. I began to question if there was anything going on that I should know about. Asked her if she loved me. I asked these questions quite frequently. Especially when she kept rejecting me for sex or any type of contact / sexual relations. 

I then felt like the problem was me. She was rejecting me because something must be wrong with ME. I went crazy. I took over the cooking, cleaning the house, cleaning the cars, fixing everything. You name it I did it. She only wanted to to the laundry. I tried to create a perfect world. We are both busting butt at work and her at school and work. I made dam sure she needed or wanted nothing. Dinner ready at night, drink poured in the fridge and everything in it's spot. 
In my eyes, she could get home and see a beautiful home, everything looks good, and she does not have to worry about a thing. 

Things turned around a bit, sex picked up some for a little while, we had a child. After the child things slipped back to the way they once were, but worse. 

We argued like hell over sex. Always rejecting me, etc. I was a real jerk about it and am hiding my emotional disaster. 

I focus 99.99% of my energy on our child. We have a very strong bond, are ALWAYS together and when I'm not at work, we are either playing outside, riding bikes, playing trucks, you name it. He is my life. 

Wife started a very high paying job about 4 years ago, it has consumed her life. We never see each other, when we do she is tired and is *****y. I am mister mom. Take the kiddo to/from school, get them ready for school, make lunches, breakfast, pick up from school, doctors, you name it. 

Sex continues to be a fight and I continue to ask if there is anything going on, whats the deal, etc. I'm losing it inside but I let it go. 

An incident occurred about 6 weeks ago and she blew up. I questioned something and that was it. She told me she does not love me and has had enough of me "accusing her of being a *****." I have never once said or directly said she was cheating. I ALWAYS asked if anyone else was involved, why are you rejecting me all the time, do you even love me, etc. Why don't you show me affection, hugs, etc. Always an argument. I eventually also stopped showing affection at some point because I was never getting anything in return. Keep in mind I love to be loved and love to love. 

Understand that I am leaving a LOT out, but that is the basic run-down of this. I am a very conservative, family oriented guy and am doing everything I can to try to keep our family together. She has made it clear she would rather live alone than live here just to keep us happy. 

She wants her space, wants to be free, etc. I have done a 180..not mentioned sex, nothing. 
Our child and I have been busy on th eweekends...leaving her to her "space." That is not good enough either apparently. 

When I do try to show affection (have tried for a few weeks) it is 'smothering'...when I ignore her I'm being a jerk and when I'm in the middle of the road it feels weird to her. 


We both grew up WAY too fast, never lived. It was turn 18/19, get married, start careers and hit the ground running. 

I went to marriage counseling on my own this time. BEGGED her to go and got the big F you again. 

Never tried to make her feel bad and always viewed her as our shining star. She makes the comment that I am jealous because she is successful and makes more money than me. And that is just too bad because she has her sights set high at work. 
Now I feel like I have been sh*t on, used, rejected and a worthless piece of garbage. Says she feels the same way. I beg to go to conseling and she blows me off. 


I am a wreck. An absolute wreck. I have apologized for the past, cannot change it and can only start with a clean slate for the future. She now is harping on the past and sees no fault on her side. You cannot start the car without the key...it takes both for it to work...marriage, arguments, etc. 

i am at a loss and am really in the sh***er here. She is all I know, my self esteem is in the gutter from the years of rejection and don't want to lose our family, especially for our child. 

If she gets her "space" or whatever she wants...shes in the mind frame that one of the guys from work could sweet talk her and have her in the sack in no time. That's how I feel. She works with a lot of good looking men and women, some of the men are quite wealthy, etc. I never feel good enough for her and her actions make me feel this way. 

Friends/family are telling me to bail as this is destroying me emotionally and move on. I am financially trapped due to my job. I took a lower paying job so she could excel at her career and I could care for the family. The roles are reversed. 

And at 33....there are no decent women that haven't been ran through by 30-40 different men or have 3+ kids. I feel like if we split, my chances of finding someone decent are slim to none. Just the thought of having sex with a woman that has been with a few other men makes me a bit uncomfortable. 

I do not believe my wife has had an affair...there is no evidence anywhere. I have 2 people at her work that have eyes on her and there is nothing there. No abnormal phone calls, no nothing. If there is anything, it has to be emotional or the beginning stages of something...maybe her eye on someone. 

She claims she has no sexual desire for anyone..even when the good looking / wealthy guys come in and other women are panting over them...she says she feels nothing. 

i am losing it here. :-(

Edit:

I must add when we would have sex, after me either begging or arguing for it..I would finish so fast (because it had been so long) i would feel so completely worthless and ashamed. She would literally kick me off of her and I went to the bathroom and did all that I could to hold back the tears. She says she was fine with it because she didn't want it anyways. I always made SURE she got her O, by either rubbing one out for her or be penetrating her, rubbing one out and sending it home while I'm O'ing at the same time. 

I can't take much more.


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## PBear

My advice... Work on being able to respect yourself. Read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and "Married Man's Sex Life Primer". Your current wife may be a lost cause, but they might help with the next one. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anchorwatch

Here, start reading, and stop talking about what you feel you deserve because of what you did for her. 

You don't see it like we do, because your on the inside. A woman doesn't get hot for a man she doesn't respect. 

Its time to ask, what have you done to yourself and what will you do for yourself?

Keep to the 180, read the book. You may not save you marriage, but you may save you. 

No More Mr Nice Guy, Dr Robert Glover

180 List - No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group

BTW, This ain't DB, don't be her babysitter either.


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## TahoeGuy

The "nice guy" thing developed as a result of her always sexually rejecting me. I thought there was a problem with me...if I fix the problem ie: make everything perfect, her rejection will stop. It never did and I tried harder and harder. People looking in that know us both well are shocked to hear this has been going on. 

My sisters told me to get my head out of my rear end and stop trying to please someone who is cold and is not appreciative. Close friends and old neighbors are coming out of the wood work and are now saying "you finally see what we have been telling you; she's treating you like crap." 

Now some folks feed on negative subjects and thrive at the thought of someone else failing / being miserable. Some may be just fanning the flame. 

I came close to divorcing her about 7-9 years ago...all over a lack of sex. She refuses to have hormones checked, marriage counseling, etc. 

Feels like we are room mates and I am the babysitter, maid, lawn guy and car repair/maintenance guy. 

I didn't wash the cars for nearly 4 weeks. "When are you going to clean the cars, they look awful?" I left them dirty and got things cleaned up when I was ready. 
Stopped doing dishes and they piled up. It burned me alive inside but I left it alone. She eventually did it and was pissed off. 

I believe I could probably leave this mess of a relationship, however I will not because of our child. 

Understand that I have left out a LOT of details...there would be pages upon pages. 

I am doing marriage counseling myself..she won't go. I have asked several times and many times over the past several years. Her parents are very against this and are also asking her to go with me. I was surprised at this. I have spilled the beans to the marriage counselor -- the guy was surprised that things have lasted this long. He feels this is a direct result of her upbringings as it is pretty "screwed up to say the least." 

Said if she won't go, may as well flush the marriage down the toilet. 

The 180 link above. I am concerned if I do many of those actions, it will seal the deal for her. I'm trying to save this marriage. The fault lies 50/50..I have admitted my fault and told her that I was sorry for the past. 

I cannot do anymore than apologize and aim for a bright future. Explained it as we are both on a dark road with no lights...the road is full of potholes and we are both stumbling down because we won't join hands and guide eachother. 

We each have our own problems, however she has a wall up and is pointing the finger at me. I am not doing 1/10th of what I was. However, I continue to focus on our child to give him a stable upbringing so that they may be a productive and good citizen in this society. Now is the time to build a solid foundation. Love, compassion, discipline, etc. It is difficult filling both roles as a mom and dad. 

I have also started to focus on myself more. Have always felt selfish if I want to go do one of my hobbies and don't take my child and/or wife.
For example: Riding bikes. I purchased 3 bikes for us. Good bikes. I go with our child every night on a bike ride after I pick him up from school. He loves it. A great time for us to bond, talk, and just be with eachother. Wife was going and now would rather sit on the couch. a tough pill to swallow.


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## lifeistooshort

I'm not understanding, you say you've apologized for the past but what have you apologized for? Did you do something to her? Sorry if I missed it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anchorwatch

You're afraid if you act for yourself, she'll leave ( seal the deal). That's why you are where you are. Read the book I gave you first, then tell us where you stand.


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## Alpha

Tahoe Guy I feel for you. 

You said her parents were very cold to each other and I'll wager your problems are in part related to this. As much as people say they do not want to be like their parents, they inevitably do. 

The other, as several mentioned here, is that she doesn't respect you. She was raised reasonably well-to-do and you poor. Starting out she already had a superiority complex in her head even if you both were married young and started from scratch.

She goes through higher education and gets a great paying job, while you don't and are left to take care of home. She hangs around very wealthy and successful people at work and then comes home to you, her "unsuccessful" husband.

Your specifics differ from mine but the general story is similar. I had a great paying job while she was a stay at home wife who raised the kids. She had a hobby and wanted to pursue it further. After I had a falling out with the boss was given a great severance and invested in her hobby. I helped build her career. Bought her gear, paid for training, etc. Great sex life.

She started to become successful and became the breadwinner. She also started hanging out with "cool" social and rich crowd. Sex slowly disappeared and vanished completely, and then one day she said she wanted space.

Sound similar? 

One thing I learned here is that you can't force anyone to love you. Once they lose that respect for you, its gone, and it won't be easy to get it back. 

Best thing for you in my opinion is give up on her and move on. Have her take responsibility in raising your child at least half the time rather than you being the full time babysitter. Work on your career and improve your health/looks and really start focusing on yourself. It may feel selfish for you but its not. You need to start feeling good about yourself.

It took me over two years to get back to normal and can't even say I'm completely over what happened. However, I've slowly invested in myself. I'm nearing fifty but now am at the lightest I've weighed since high school and have signs of a six pack showing. Never have I imagined that I could get the attention of women 10-12 years younger than me. My current girlfriend over the last six months is an attractive 33 year old. We have sex maybe 4-5 times per week. I was telling myself that I have gotten laid more in the past six months than I have in the last six years being married. Now with a little upturn of the business, I can see a pretty exciting life in the near horizon.

Your lack of experience is what scares you of moving on. Don't let it. You are young and should experience a life you should enjoy, not stuck with someone who no longer loves you and treats you like a domestic helper.


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## Maneo

Way past time to get out of this terrible marriage and move on.


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## john117

You are basically fighting the same battle her parents did. The Hispanic side seems to have been missing as there seems to be a lot more Middle East influence in terms of emotional and physical importance. The career focus is an added bonus nail in the coffin.

Once she was exposed to the toxic environment of her family that's basically all she wrote. 

Just for kicks, is she in a high pressure / high stakes / high responsibility type position?

The NMMNG and MMSL type books are good for simple cases but you're past the point of simple cases.


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## 6301

You know, sometimes you have to put your conservative views and values on the back burner and I know it goes against your grain but in all honesty, it ain't working.

She has you by the short hairs and you gave her that right to be like that on a sliver platter.

No sex. No emotion. Putting you down because she makes more money. Nothing you do is good enough, so you tell me, I'm curious, why are you still kissing her feet? For a piece of tail once in a blue moon?.

IMO, you went far and above what most would do and it got you no where so now it's time to get in the gutter with her.

I would consult a lawyer, file for divorce, have her served at work where she's in her own personal heaven, and now that your Mister Mom, you have a great chance at gaining custody and she can fork over support from her high flying job that seems to be far more important then her family.

Having her served at work and surprised by it will be a quick slap in the face to her but maybe it will wake her selfish ass up. If she sees the light and wants to make the marriage work then you can always call the divorce off but IMO once the dust settles, she'll go back to her old ways and she's already proved that point according to you.

Stop being the door mat and stop kissing her ass. You see where it's got you and now you need to stand up for yourself and get your self respect and dignity back before she completely destroys it.


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## TahoeGuy

Alpha said:


> Tahoe Guy I feel for you.
> 
> Your lack of experience is what scares you of moving on.



Sadly, this is 25% of my reason, 50% is our son and the remaining 25% is a mix of financially trapped, afraid of change and this is the only environment that I have ever known.


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## TahoeGuy

john117 said:


> You are basically fighting the same battle her parents did. The Hispanic side seems to have been missing as there seems to be a lot more Middle East influence in terms of emotional and physical importance. The career focus is an added bonus nail in the coffin.
> 
> Once she was exposed to the toxic environment of her family that's basically all she wrote.
> 
> Just for kicks, is she in a high pressure / high stakes / high responsibility type position?
> 
> The NMMNG and MMSL type books are good for simple cases but you're past the point of simple cases.


Her parents are both against it. I have been talking to them and feeding them some information to feel them out. A game of cat and mouse if you will. My wife refuses to talk to them and has all but completely cut them off. WAY out of the ordinary. Way out. 

The career focus..Jesus Lord. IT never ends. The personal phone rings ALL the time, people texting asking this or that. It's almost like she feels the place simply cannot function without her. She is in very low-level supervisory/management. Read the first step of many into management. 

Argued for 4 hours the other day. It came out that she "knows what the problem is". "You are jealous that I make more money than you do, am successful and you are not." 

Needless to say that REALLY pissed me off. I hate to sound like a jerk, but she would not be in her career position if it weren't for me. I actually did have a quite successful career that I had to leave so that she could continue with hers. 

About 2 years ago I began working somewhere else that gave me a carved in stone, very flexible work schedule, no OT and quite a bit less in pay. With her long and unpredictable work hours, one of us needed to be on a consistent schedule and flexible in the event our son got sick, school days off, etc. That was me as I am very against a child being raised by a babysitter/school personnel. 

Anyways here we are now. Financially trapped and beat the f down.


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## TahoeGuy

6301 said:


> You know, sometimes you have to put your conservative views and values on the back burner and I know it goes against your grain but in all honesty, it ain't working.
> 
> She has you by the short hairs and you gave her that right to be like that on a sliver platter.
> 
> No sex. No emotion. Putting you down because she makes more money. Nothing you do is good enough, so you tell me, I'm curious, why are you still kissing her feet? For a piece of tail once in a blue moon?.


I guess because this is all I know. Haven't dated since I was 15, emotionally beat down, tired, need a break, financially trapped, you name it. Mainly because I'm trying to be a damn good husband and keep our family together for our son. Regardless if I am miserable or not, that is something that I am willing to try to deal with for my son. 



> IMO, you went far and above what most would do and it got you no where so now it's time to get in the gutter with her.


Most male and female friends have told me to just move on. Truthfully, as mentioned above, I am scared to death of change, finding someone worth a crap, and of course divorce and the effects on our son. 

[/quote]
I would consult a lawyer, file for divorce, have her served at work where she's in her own personal heaven, and now that your Mister Mom, you have a great chance at gaining custody and she can fork over support from her high flying job that seems to be far more important then her family.

[/quote]

Have consulted with numerous attorneys in the area. If anyone is in Central Florida, PM me about some attys. I'll narrow down my area privately. 

I will fight to the end for custody, regardless if it bankrupts me or have to sell my soul to the devil and deliver it personally to the hinges of hel. 



> Having her served at work and surprised by it will be a quick slap in the face to her but maybe it will wake her selfish ass up. If she sees the light and wants to make the marriage work then you can always call the divorce off but IMO once the dust settles, she'll go back to her old ways and she's already proved that point according to you.


A friend also suggested this. Most have also agreed, including attorneys once she sees the child support payment, alimony and other stuff she is going to bail out. It will be too late by then. 



> Stop being the door mat and stop kissing her ass. You see where it's got you and now you need to stand up for yourself and get your self respect and dignity back before she completely destroys it.


It was destroyed years ago.....I'm scraping the pieces together very slowly........a tough road.


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## JWTBL

I feel really bad for you. Change is scary and it's amazing what we put ourselves through to prevent major changes from happening. But after reading your post, it sounds like you should get away from her for the sake of your kid, not stay together for his sake. Your home life sounds very toxic and that can't be healthy for children to grow up in. Just think of how it affected you and your wife, growing up with bad situations.


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## EleGirl

TahoeGuy said:


> Financially trapped and beat the f down.


How are you financially trapped?


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## EleGirl

TahoeGuy said:


> financially trapped


Again please explain this…


TahoeGuy said:


> Mainly because I'm trying to be a damn good husband and keep our family together for our son. Regardless if I am miserable or not, that is something that I am willing to try to deal with for my son.


Your wife learned to be the way she is by watching her parents. They are cold to each other. What do you think you are teaching your son by staying with your wife? You are teaching him that he can expect any wife he has to be just like your wife. You are teaching him that the marriage you have is all he has to look forward to.

You would do him a huge favor in divorcing his mother. Then with the time you have him, you can teach him that a person does not put up with that kind of crap. You can teach him the right way to live.


TahoeGuy said:


> Truthfully, as mentioned above, I am scared to death of change, finding someone worth a crap, and of course divorce and the effects on our son.


Your marriage is hurting your son.



TahoeGuy said:


> I would consult a lawyer, file for divorce, have her served at work where she's in her own personal heaven, and now that your Mister Mom, you have a great chance at gaining custody and she can fork over support from her high flying job that seems to be far more important then her family.


So do it. Why would you be Mr. Mom? You and your wife will most likely split custody 50/50. It sounds like you will most likely also get some child support. But most likely you will have your son about as much as she will. 


TahoeGuy said:


> I will fight to the end for custody, regardless if it bankrupts me or have to sell my soul to the devil and deliver it personally to the hinges of hel.


The chances of either one of you winning 100% is next to zero. You will most likely get joint custody with a time sharing plan as close to 50/50 as possible. That’s the norm today. Save your money to use to spend to do great things with your son. 


TahoeGuy said:


> A friend also suggested this. Most have also agreed, including attorneys once she sees the child support payment, alimony and other stuff she is going to bail out. It will be too late by then.


 She will bail out of what?


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## EleGirl

By the way, start building your own life. Go work out. Get friends. Do things. 

One good way to get active is to check out Find your people - Meetup It's not a dating site. It's a site where people post organizations, clubs, etc. Look and see what's going on in your area. Meet people.. both men and women. You are not ready to date. So just get out there and get a life.


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## 3Xnocharm

You are doing your son no favors by staying with this woman. Bout time you manned up. You are worried about never finding anyone else, no offense, but no woman would want you in the CURRENT STATE you are in. No woman wants a man with no backbone. You have SERIOUS work to do on yourself before you should even THINK about being with someone. 

Oh and as far as not being with a woman who has had sex with someone else...you WILL be alone if you dont learn to let go of that. Either that or you will end up with another woman just like your wife. 

Get out of this for your kid, if you wont do it for yourself.


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## TahoeGuy

EleGirl said:


> How are you financially trapped?


With work schedules factored in, there is no way she could possibly even come close to a 50% custody agreement. I can discuss more in a PM, not putting more than that out there on the forum. 

Financially trapped as in: 

On my income alone: 

Rent: $1000-1200/month to rent a home 
Car insurance @ approxmately $130/month
phone @ $120/month
food @ $350/month
gas @ $350/month
home internet @ $75 (assuming wifi is not available)
life insurance @ $20ish/month 
electric/water @ $200/month. 

That puts me at or slightly over my income per month. 

That is bare-bones living for my metropolitan area. Apartment rentals for a 2/2 <900ft2 are close to 1000/mo. it is more cost effective to rent a house so that I do not have to put everything in storage and pay $100/month for a unit. 

Tools, lawn equipment, and other misc items.


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## TahoeGuy

So this weekend I was going to try to give her the "space" she wanted. 

A LONG weekend summarized below: 

Friday evening my son and I were going to go to a family friendly free event downtown. I dressed differently than what I normally would have. Wife decided she wanted to go. She comes and basically follows my son and I around. Minimal conversation. I try like hell to talk and it's just not working. 

We get home, go to bed. Still sleeping in the same bed. She's sleeping normally...with her back towards me. 

Saturday comes along. 

I am going to take our son to a fun place about 60 miles away. I can make a fun day for him and there is plenty to do. I dress differently again. Way out of left field. I feel ok about it. 
Wife decides at the last minute she wants to go. We drive over an hour to get there. Traffic is horrible. I had a better conversation with our son than her. 
We get to the destination. She's not walking with us a lot, but she appears to be trying. No affection to me at all though. 
We get to an area, 4 other dads are around, one (or two..don't remember if it was 1 or 2) have their wives with them. The other two don't. I am off to her side and am watching her eyes. She's staring one guy down. He's a good looking guy...looked at his arms, chest, D, etc. I finally had enough and said something to her about it...along the lines of how much more are you going to stare. 
She immediately became defensive. Said she wasnt looking at him (she usually never "stares"). That told me exactly who and what she was looking at. I let it go. 

Pretty much is cold as usual the rest of the day. We go to dinner, refused to eat again. Hasen't eaten in weeks. Living off of cookies and hot chocolate. Chef cooks her a plate for free. She nibbles and says she is done. We're talking good food here. 

On the ride home (2 hours, traffic), I try to talk about our work, focus on her job, anything to get a conversation going. I'm getting short answers -- our son is answering me and we end up chatting again. He eventually wants to watch a movie, I try again with her. Minimal response. I pop in the headphones and continue the drive home. Silence for her. Music for me, movie for the boy. 

We get home, I try to hug her. She wouldn't put her arms around me and turned her head so our cheeks wouldn't touch. I backed away and got upset. I told her if she does not want to work on this then pack her sht and LEAVE! 

I have bent over backwards to make this work, done a 180, opened up, told her how I feel, you name it. It has been a struggle and I'm doing everything that I can. 

She goes to bed, I eventually follow. Typical back to eachother. I was holding back the tears..she fell asleep. 

Sunday rolls around. My son and I leave around 8am and do the usual church, breakfast, see family, lunch and to another family member's house. 

We get home around 3pm, shes cold. We go to the grocery store, checkout go home. Not much interaction. 

I start ignoring her completely Sunday evening. By Monday evening I get a text while she's at work saying that she will "try to work this out, but it is going to be hard." I reply and pretty much say that no one said it was going to be easy. 

have told her I just want to be loved and feel like I'm loved and cared about. Lots more but that is basically the run down. 

Agreed yesterday to go to counseling but said if she feels uncomfortable, she won't return. 

Everyone has told me that I am out of my mind to even consider attempting to keep this marriage together. Most men would have walked away years ago. I love her to death and am willing to give this a shot. Address the issues that she has with me being a 'jerk' and ashole. Hell, I was referred to as 'ashole' for many years. I certainly was a jerk..but the rejection for affection and sex literally ate me alive. It's not much to ask for a hug, kiss, or anything. 

Sadly, this is the only real relationship that I have ever known. Looking out of the window, it's a 'scary' dating world out there. I like the security of home, family, same routine every day, etc. I'm very old-school family oriented. My sister divorced her husband years ago -- they married young like us and she is a train wreck now. 

I am truly willing to bend over as long as she is. She is holding the past over my head like a loaded gun. I let my pain, hurt and emotion go that she did to me. Time to grow up and move on. 

Still no proof of any affairs at work or outside. There are eyes on the inside and there is nothing. 

Tomorrow is a 2-hour counseling session. I am hoping for the best.........


----------



## GusPolinski

I'd start w/ a new, higher-paying job. After that, if things don't change for the better, divorce.


----------



## GusPolinski

TahoeGuy said:


> With work schedules factored in, there is no way she could possibly even come close to a 50% custody agreement. I can discuss more in a PM, not putting more than that out there on the forum.
> 
> Financially trapped as in:
> 
> On my income alone:
> 
> Rent: $1000-1200/month to rent a home
> Car insurance @ approxmately $130/month
> phone @ $120/month
> food @ $350/month
> gas @ $350/month
> home internet @ $75 (assuming wifi is not available)
> life insurance @ $20ish/month
> electric/water @ $200/month.
> 
> That puts me at or slightly over my income per month.
> 
> That is bare-bones living for my metropolitan area. Apartment rentals for a 2/2 <900ft2 are close to 1000/mo. it is more cost effective to rent a house so that I do not have to put everything in storage and pay $100/month for a unit.
> 
> Tools, lawn equipment, and other misc items.


And also, do you know what all of ^this means...?

She'd likely be paying you spousal support in the event of a divorce.


----------



## TahoeGuy

Went to MC together this week. 

WOW. Just WOW. 

The picture has been painted, I am setting myself a time limit to see if she makes an effort to change. If not, I am going to have to prepare to move on.

There are deeply seeded issues within her that she subconsciously blames me for. For example: We have VERY few pictures of the 3 of us together. She has always blamed me for this. In other words, I don't take any photographs of us, or refuse to make the effort. I certainly have and have always been shot down for that too. I did a count of photos on my server remotely while we were at MC . I have 45,000+ of our son since 2009. I love pictures and am a very sentimental person. 

I have under 50 photos of the three of us together. 
Even less of She and our child
There are a large amount of our child and myself. Pictures of our hands as he grows up, our feet, shoes together, etc. Hundreds. 

MC asks me why I never include her. She claimed to feel 'unwanted' and 'rejected'. I responded that she never wants to be in the pictures or specifically makes herself busy or unavailable. MC asks her why that is the case. She then tells him because her father made her take so many dam pictures when she was younger and she HATES pictures. 

MC looks at me and looks at her again, asks her how can she turn blame on me, feel rejected, unwanted... when she refuses to even participate. Then punish me for her deeply rooted problem that I have no idea that even existed. 

I was taken WAY back by this. Way back. 

There were many other things that came up that he pointed out that she imposes severe blame on me for, yet I have no idea why. It is a direct result of her childhood. 

One other important (very) subject. LOVE and AFFECTION! I love to love the people I love. Hugs, kisses, you name it. I have this mindset as they can be taken in an instant, let them know you love them as much as you can. She has never shown me affection, love, you name it. 

MC asks both of us: Can you identify anyone that is in love? 

She goes first. Could not answer anyone. Not her parents, no friends, people at work, nothing. 
She responds, I saw a couple in love on TV. MC questions this. Wife says that she saw a reality show on tv and could tell this woman truly loved her husband. MC took a breath and said "ok"

My response: My mother/father are out of the question as they were screwed up as a square-wheeled bicycle. I identified one of my sisters and her husband, people in public etc. He asks me "How do you KNOW they are in love?" I respond you can tell how they touch each other, the way they look at one another, hold hands, show affection, kiss, hug, and you can simply 'feel' their love for each other when they are around by their demonstration of body language, etc. MC said "ok"

He then asks my wife what was the initial attraction. She shrugs her shoulders and said she has no idea. MC says BS, two people don't stay married this long with no attraction. She responds honestly, he was the first, only and ever man to ever talk to me and show me any attention. 

MC was taken back by this as surprised as I was. 

He asked me. I told him I saw a sweet, caring, very attractive, loving person that I felt loved me at one point and it faded over the years. I begged for MC and was told to F off. Now I wonder if she loves me. 

He asks her what she wants. She reples that she wants love, to be loved and have a romantic spark. 

MC asks her HOW would she know that she is IN love if she has never seen a functioning family unit / relationship. 
She says I don't know. I guess I would just know it or feel it. 

We move to sex. She says it felt like a chore, like she had to do it, etc. 

He then asks me how I felt. I told him what I already posted here. I was always shoved away, rejected or when I did literally beg my as$ off for it...her response would be usually hurry up, are you finished, and as soon as I finished she would literally kick me in the chest to get away from her. I would go to the other room and try to pull myself together and 'man up'. Go to sleep with our backs turned as she wouldn't let me snuggle or hold her. I felt totally worthless, emotionally disconnected and have a burning desire to have that connection. Mentioned this rejection has destroyed my self-esteem, I feel worthless and unworthy of anything. I was totally broken down and crying my eyes out. It really hurts deep to my soul. 

Told him I take care of everything except laundry. Cooking, cleaning, child, cars, yard, you name it. Everything. He said there is no honey-do list or items of the like? I reply no...all she has to do is look at something or if I think she is going to mention it. I am either fixing, replacing or getting whatever it may be taken care of immediately. He sat back and said "wow, you are one a kind"

He asks me what do you think when she kicks you away, won't snuggle, or refuses you. I tell him that I feel like she has someone else, or someone else is taking care of her sexually. 

She tried several times to interrupt and he ended up telling her to shut up and LISTEN to your husband. Most husbands would have left by now or had a woman on the side, this man truly truly has a very deep love for you. Basically told her she has no idea what she has. I felt very embarrassed, but he made a good point. 

He asked me what I do in response to the rejection. I say that I keep the house clean as previously mentioned, cars, yard, and everything inbetween. I don't want her to find fault in me and have any excuse to reject me anymore. 


He turns to her and said how do you expect your husband to show you he loves you anymore than what he is doing. She replies "I don't know, but he is always an ashole." MC replies EXACTLY! You have no idea what love is, so how can you find such fault in him when he is simply shooting in the dark and has been for 13 years. He does not know what works or does not because you simply will not tell him. So he turns into this ashole and gets angry. Wife says yep! He says do you know what anger is? 

MC said fear. Wife looked at him like he was crazy. He said no, really...listen. Your husband is trying everything in the world here. He has NO idea what is working. You won't tell him. You said the attraction between the two of you is that he was the only man (at 15 and through the years) that has ever paid you any attention, shown any attraction, etc. He gets angry because he is scared that all that has to happen is another man come along. Talk to you and show you affection and you're gone. So, your husband throws everything he has everyday at this wall...hoping something sticks. And you fault him for this, hold it over his head and other things. Badly. 

He then said what is your husband supposed to think when you reject him sexually and you don't tell him why and give him some pis poor excuse. Said that your husband certainly is going to wonder if you're being faithful because there is no love, affection, and a severe lack of sex. 

He looks at me and says that I focus on the negative and amplify it. I got a lashing, but I told him to lay it out like it is and be as blunt as necessary. He gave an example. He said how is your day. I told him it was pretty bad, but it could be worse. He yells and said THERE! "it could be worse!" Why add that negative future outlook in. MC said you always look in the future and expect/plan for the worst. If you think that way, the worst will happen. If she wanted to run off with a coworker, she would have done it by now. I respond that all a man has to do is simply talk to her. He said there you go again. Negative. 

He asked her if she had the option of two doors: One door was happiness for the rest of our marriage until death, or the other door of walking to 'freedom'....which would she choose. There was a delay and she said happiness. 

MC then asked me the same. I told him that I would beat the key out of his hand to the door of happiness. However, I cannot do this on my own. MC said negative mister, negative. I re-word it and said that I can do this and would choose happiness for either my wife and I...or choose it to better myself for the next one that comes along. 

It finally ended in him asking her to just show me a little something if she is willing to make this work. He made it a point that we were both equally at fault, but on different levels. He also feels that we both did not intentionally do this to eachother and we basically never were given a fair shot at this marriage from the beginning -- "it is just simply amazing you two are still together, this specific marriage is textbook-study material...just amazing at how tolerant and resilient the two of you have been." 

Anyways her issues are very, very deeply seeded. I spoke to him today for a bit and asked if he thinks it will work between my wife and I. He said she has an extremely severe self-esteem issue, low self-confidence and is somewhat nieve. Yet she is hides it very very well through manipulation Basically said that it will work, but she has a long and hard road ahead of her. He also said that I basically have to 'rewire' my brain to stop inserting negative into this situation and think positive. 

He does have a very valid point. I am working my rear end off on my part. 

I'll make another post about today. ugh...


----------



## TahoeGuy

Today was interesting. I see no change or effort on her part. Yet I'm getting yelled at "did you even LISTEN to the MC yesterday?" 

Wife takes off of work today. This has not happened in years. She has enough time off to be absent from her work for well over a year. 

I was going to take our child to the doctor next week. She changed the appointment to today and decided to take off work "to spend time with him." 

Red flag city. She has never done this and I have BEGGED for years! Anyways, I tell her that I will go home and we can get him from school early, take him to the DR and go somewhere for the weekend. 

She does not want me to go. Flat out says no, I don't want you to go. You always get him (our child) by yourself, I never get him...but it's all about you anyways. 

I calmly reply and tell her to stop throwing stones and casting blame. She gets even more pissed that I'm calm as a cool cat. Anyways I let it go before she literally blew her top. 

So I get home from work at my usual time. We were going to go eat tonight. I don't feel like cooking and she isn't going to do it. I change clothes, get our son ready and my son and I are getting our shoes on in the garage. She comes out and is biting her lip (has a weird habit of this when she is mad) and kind of glares at me. 

I have done nothing! 

I ask her ....could you at least be happy and lets have a nice time out. She flips and says shes not arguing with me, sick of my sh*t, I didn't listen to the MC yesterday, etc. She goes back inside and says she isn't going with us. Slams the door. I unload our son..he is now saying mommy is so mean to you daddy, etc. I ask her to just calm down and come on. She is going off and is now yelling at me at the top of her lungs. Son yells and says stop fighting guys. 

I had enough and removed ourselves from the situation immediately. We go out to where he wanted to eat, window shopping at a few stores and rode around town looking at the sunset, a storm off in the distance and watched a few trains pass through town. 

We get home and she is watching TV. She gets up and goes to bed. 

I have my deadline set. I am going to have to get some self-confidence and stick to it. 

...Scared to death......

I am questioning myself "WHY are you doing this to yourself?!!!" My only logical response is to keep our family together for our son and try to make this work. 

My heart says one thing, but my mind says she has clocked out. 

i want to sleep at night knowing that I tried everything possible. I see a LOT of threads on here "what if I did this, or what if I did that." I am trying all of those avenues before I throw the towel in. If I walk away, I will know for sure that I did everything possible that a good husband could and would have done. 

If our son were not in the picture....I would have walked the very second she said "I don't love you anymore" and never looked back.


----------



## lovelost2soon

You deserve to be happy. You sound like a great father with a head on your shoulders. Your wife on the other hand seems like she checked out of this marriage already. If she is not willing to go to counseling to help your marriage then she is not willing to give it everything it deserves to fix the problem. I commend you for going yourself, lots of men I know wouldn't do that. But I think it's pretty obvious that this marriage isn't going to work out. 
I think you need to do what's best for you and your son now. Being in an unhealthy relationship is not a good environment for him to grow up in. You can't stay because she is all you know...that is not fair to you or your son. Please, consider getting a divorce and free yourself from this unhappy marriage you are in. Good luck!


----------



## aug

You seem to be emotionally stuck to her. That in itself can get quite annoying.

Learn to detach. Learn to let it all go. Do not be afraid of the unknown future. Set goals for yourself, both personal and career-wise.

Stop thinking your life is dependent on her. That is overwhelming for her whose emotional blueprint is not being lovey-dovey.

Your need for emotional attachment to her is too strong.

Learn to let her go. But show her you do love her. Step back. Learn to live your own life. When you are happy, self-confident and independent, I believe she'll see you differently.


----------



## the guy

I lost track of how many times the word "beg" was used in this thread!

Alls I can say is respect is commanded....you can't beg for respect.

From were I'm sitting you keep rewarding your wife for bad behavior.
What are the consequences for her nad behavior? After all we all know bad behavior continues with out consequences!


----------



## john117

Tahoe, forget MC. It seems your wife is dealing with serious stress and an ever popular personality disorder or two. 

You describe someone with no emotional maturity and no empathy whatsoever. That's not MC material...

Without putting any diagnosis into your head read up on personality disorders. The described behavior is BSC and not simply that of a wife needing MC to see straight.


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## EleGirl

So what does she think the MC said that you are not paying attention to? Have you asked her?


----------



## the guy

I bet the WW didn't hear a damb thing the MC said. I bet she is big time deflecting.

Set up an appointment by your self and discuss this with MC. Don't let you wife know and go back and see if she (wife) really listened!


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## the guy

I find it interesting that even after MC your old lady is still kicking you in the balls (figuritively speaking)!


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## EleGirl

What most people do not realize is that most of the work of counseling actually happens after the appointment. A person processes the things discussed in the appointment for days.

It sounds to me like that is what your wife is doing. IT's going through her head over and over and she's having trouble processing it all. 

I've had the experience of counseling sessions throwing me off for days. There were times when I had to schedule appointments further apart because what I went through afterwards was hard to handle and I needed more time to work through it.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By TahoeGuy*
> I see no change or effort on her part. Yet I'm getting yelled at "did you even LISTEN to the MC yesterday?"



*This needs to change drastically or your marriage is doomed!

No matter what she does you need to build YOURSELF up so that you can be all right with her or without her. You are not there yet!*


----------



## TahoeGuy

So here I am at 6:30 on a Sunday morning. We were both awake at 4am and I tried to talk. She has been avoiding me like I have the plague since Thursday. All day yesterday we were together with our son and she ignored me and I did likewise to her and focused on my son. I finally hammered down and got to talking about the MC meeting. 

A few points that stuck out: The MC asked her if she could be happy in this relationship, would she? She answered "I don't know." 


I touched again on that this morning...it's still an "I don't know." YET 15 minutes earlier when I asked "Could you love me enough to make this work out?" I get a yes. 

She wants to go back. Only to send the point home that maybe you'll listen to someone else tell you and not me. Tell me what??? No response. 

We haven't had sex for over 8 weeks now and I am absolutely dying over here. I am truly being pushed to my limits as a man and am about at the end of my rope. I tell her this. She asked if I would go somewhere else, and I responded not while we were married..but if I am truly pushed to a limit, I would give her the respect to tell her if it was coming. I honestly don't know if I can take much more. 13 years of this and I feel like a caged animal that has been given viagra. I have deeply rooted morals but this is pushing me to my limit. 

She won't hug me, hold my hand, snuggle with me in the bed, etc. She says she just cannot do it as she has no feelings. I mentioned when we first started dating we had no feelings for each other. The hugging, kissing, pillow talk, and sex built those feelings. OR at least for me they did. I feel like this was all a dam waste of time. 

We went back and forth a bit and I eventually ended up trying to spoon her. She had her back to me as usual. I slid my left arm under her neck and my other arm went over her side and just under her left breast. We are snuggled up for a while and I ask her if she can even sense my love for her. She said no and then shoved me off of her. When I say shove, I literally mean she shoved me away and said that I am holding her wrong and grabbing, and forcing myself on her. She did not resist and actually hugged me back initially. WTF!

I blew up and pointed out that this is what the MC was talking about. If your husband is not hitting the target, you must tell him so he knows. She won't tell me! I yelled for the first time in quite a while and told her I was finished with this bullshat. She says good! 

I guess my Sunday will be screwed up. I hate the weekends, I truly do. 



Spoke to the MC on the phone again... told me she has very deep "issues" that is is unsure if he can fix. He mentioned that he immediately noticed she had severe low self-esteem and hid it extremely well. It was also pointed out that she has mastery skills at using her past to twist the present around and make it my fault. 


WHY am I fighting this fight? I truly don't know. Fear? For my son? To keep the family together? A slight hope that this may work out? 
Fear that I won't find someone else? My own low self esteem issues from her beating me down for so many years? 
I have only dated one other girl prior to my wife..I was 15. I don't even know how to approach women let alone date. This screws my self confidence even more thinking this.


----------



## TahoeGuy

I forgot to mention this morning she said that I needed to clean the vehicles. "You went from one extreme to the next, they are simply disgusting!"

*I* need to clean them? I told her she can go do it herself. She replied that she can just pay someone to do it for her. 

I should have expected that answer. No way in hell she would get out there and clean the cars. She never has. Now I may just see how dirty I can get them.


----------



## TahoeGuy

aug said:


> You seem to be emotionally stuck to her. That in itself can get quite annoying.
> 
> Learn to detach. Learn to let it all go. Do not be afraid of the unknown future. Set goals for yourself, both personal and career-wise.
> 
> Stop thinking your life is dependent on her. That is overwhelming for her whose emotional blueprint is not being lovey-dovey.
> 
> Your need for emotional attachment to her is too strong.
> 
> Learn to let her go. But show her you do love her. Step back. Learn to live your own life. When you are happy, self-confident and independent, I believe she'll see you differently.



I am deeply emotionally attached to her. She is all I have ever known, have ever truly unconditionally loved, etc. 

I am struggling with this very, very badly. 

Top that with concerns over finances on my own, finding a good partner in the future, etc. 

When I'm out, I notice women never look at me, yet when I ask several that I know, they say I'm not a bad looking guy at all. I just don't send the "signal" out. 

Signal?  I have a radar or some sort?


----------



## TahoeGuy

john117 said:


> Without putting any diagnosis into your head read up on personality disorders. The described behavior is BSC and not simply that of a wife needing MC to see straight.


What is BSC?


----------



## TahoeGuy

Mr Blunt said:


> *This needs to change drastically or your marriage is doomed!
> 
> No matter what she does you need to build YOURSELF up so that you can be all right with her or without her. You are not there yet!*


It is building slowly. 

I have one dangerous mountain to get over. 

I am able to build a wall up during the day. When she gets home at night, I realize this wall was nothing but ice and I melt. 

There isn't a man that I know that would put up with this sh**. Maybe I'm so tolerant because this is all I know? Maybe I'm trying to put fault on myself. One main factor is my son. That is a HUGE weight on the other side for me. 

It is slowly tilting though...but I see myself being completely destroyed emotionally by the end of this and I feel like I cannot stop it.


----------



## john117

TahoeGuy said:


> What is BSC?



http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bsc

It's a common term in TAM where TLA's abound


----------



## TahoeGuy

I feel like I'm dying a slow, miserable death inside. 

One day she wants to work it out and by the end of the day she does not. 

Now she says she is not attracted to me and never has been. What the hell does that mean? 

She cannot have sex with someone who she is not attracted to. 

History repeats itself and I will never change. I have bent over backwards to be everything she wants. Sure I have been a REAL jerk in the past and she has been most certainly cold and not very nice herself. 

Why have children, want more children, move to a larger house, and continue on with life? 


I feel horrible....but I feel like I'm falling out of love with her. I truly do not know how much more that I can handle before I simply fall apart. 


Some close friends and family say to simply make a decision and leave. I cannot just walk away and be left with so many "what if I did this or that." 

Deep down I know it's over, but I look at the past like it is all my fault and she is not to blame...Yet I know in my mind that is not the case. I feel like I am going to lose a good woman..the best that I could have. Way out of my league, and at one point such a sweet and caring person. 

I am a damn wreck and wish I had someone to talk to that has been where I am. Most male friends are feeding the fire and saying to leave that I'll find someone else. I look at my sister -- divorced and she is a train wreck. 

Having trouble controlling my emotions..It feels like a tidal wave is on my back and I'm about to fall over and my life is going to spiral down. I have never cried this much in my adult life. ugh. 





I cannot possibly be the only one that has gone through this.


----------



## Mr Blunt

RUN RUN RUN to get resourses to help you stop being so very weak in self reliance

You are way too dependant on her and not on yourself. We here at TAM can help you but you have to ACT. 

NO MORE TALK BUT ACT NOW!

Do not tell us how you have no resources in your community that is just an excuse.
You can tell us all day that you are losing it but what good will that do? You need help right where you are at in your community; NOW GO GET IT.


Stop focusing on how much you need/want her and how much she will ruin your life.
Do you want to be her puppet all your life? Let others help you.

You know you are weak, we know you are weak but *YOU CAN GET A LOT BETTER IF YOU UTILIZE THE RIGHT HELP!*


----------



## anchorwatch

Tahoe, 

She's putting this on you, and you're allowing yourself to accept the blame here. You can't fix her. You're not responsible to fix her. You're only responsible to fix you. Stop arguing about it now. Keep your side of the street clean, and start to move on. Let her decide what she'll do, if she doesn't come along. that's on her, not you. 

BTW, If my DW told me she wasn't attracted to me or any of that $hit yours told you, I'd be gone. Leaving her to figure it out by herself, like she should have from the start. 

I don't remember, did you read NMMNG?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

TahoeGuy said:


> I feel like I'm dying a slow, miserable death inside.
> 
> One day she wants to work it out and by the end of the day she does not.
> 
> Now she says she is not attracted to me and never has been. What the hell does that mean?
> 
> She cannot have sex with someone who she is not attracted to.
> 
> History repeats itself and I will never change. I have bent over backwards to be everything she wants. Sure I have been a REAL jerk in the past and she has been most certainly cold and not very nice herself.
> 
> Why have children, want more children, move to a larger house, and continue on with life?
> 
> 
> I feel horrible....but I feel like I'm falling out of love with her. I truly do not know how much more that I can handle before I simply fall apart.
> 
> 
> Some close friends and family say to simply make a decision and leave. I cannot just walk away and be left with so many "what if I did this or that."
> 
> Deep down I know it's over, but I look at the past like it is all my fault and she is not to blame...Yet I know in my mind that is not the case. *I feel like I am going to lose a good woman..the best that I could have. Way out of my league, and at one point such a sweet and caring person. *
> 
> I am a damn wreck and wish I had someone to talk to that has been where I am. Most male friends are feeding the fire and saying to leave that I'll find someone else. I look at my sister -- divorced and she is a train wreck.
> 
> Having trouble controlling my emotions..It feels like a tidal wave is on my back and I'm about to fall over and my life is going to spiral down. I have never cried this much in my adult life. ugh.
> 
> I cannot possibly be the only one that has gone through this.


Dude, seriously...this is NOT a good woman! A good woman does NOT treat her man the way that she treats you! Reading how she shoved you away from her, and telling you that she has never been attracted to you... that is a cold, hard, b!tch. She doesnt want to work on your marriage, she just doesnt want her life to change. Its about time you really faced the truth here, this woman does not love you, and it doesnt sound like she ever truly did. You have made the effort, now its time to focus on YOU and get yourself out of this miserable situation. Someday you will wonder what the hell took you so long, as you are enjoying the REAL love of a new woman who respects you, cares for you, and WANTS you.


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## justastatistic

Ask you counselor for a diagnosis for your wife. I would bet my left nut she's borderline personality disorder. 

The bad news is BPD people are very hard to treat and they have to accept their condition and WANT to get help. The treatment itself is very limited, dialetical behavioral therapy being the most common treatment and really the only one that shows any promise.

Seriously, you need to grow a pair and stop with all this. Not only is she clearly not interested at this point, but you sabotage what little success you have had. Why did you say anything when she finally let you snuggle her? You should have just left it at that and celebrated a small victory. 

Read up on BPD and see if it doesn't fit. And consider, really consider, the effect living in this toxic environment is having on your son. Do you really want him to grow up thinking this is how married people live? Accept that she's not going to change and that you have your own issues. File and get yourself into individual counseling, then find a good woman and be a good role model for your son.

It's really all you can do. You can't change her.


----------



## GusPolinski

*cough* Affair!


----------



## HiMaint57

Your story sounds a lot like mine. My husband and I met in high school and got married the year after I finished college. My parents were very unemotional toward each other; my mom sometimes went days without speaking to my dad or to me. His parents bickered for 49 years, and his dad was physically abusive. We were from very different social and financial backgrounds, which sounds stuck-up but can make a big difference in a marriage. 

Getting married seemed the natural progression after dating so long. He adored me, but as much as I tried to match his feelings, I have never been in love with him. He has so many good qualities, but something is missing. We had some wonderful times at first and raised two great kids, but I know I was very high-maintenance (hence my name) and caused him a lot of frustration, and over the years he has shut down.

Fast forward 34 years -- we are completely disconnected from each other physically and emotionally and have been for about 7 years. We have our own lives, finances, activities -- it's a lot like my parents' marriage. I can't stand being in a tense situation with minimal conversation. 

When we've discussed it and I've mentioned leaving, he says he wants me to stay. I feel so guilty about not loving him the way I should, and I take all the blame for the state of the relationship, so I have stayed and tried to get him to open up again and start to heal, but we're drifting further apart. 

Anyway, I can identify with the coldness and the inexperience of not having dated anyone else. It sounds like you're going through hell. Please listen to the people on this forum -- they have good advice and want to help.


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## warlock07

You really are very dense, aren't you?

your friends probably gave up after giving you the same advice again and again. 

Try some self respect for a change and 




> We haven't had sex for over 8 weeks now and I am absolutely dying over here. I am truly being pushed to my limits as a man and am about at the end of my rope. I tell her this. She asked if I would go somewhere else, and I responded not while we were married..but if I am truly pushed to a limit, I would give her the respect to tell her if it was coming. I honestly don't know if I can take much more. 13 years of this and I feel like a caged animal that has been given viagra. I have deeply rooted morals but this is pushing me to my limit.


Hyperbole much?

How come you want to have sex with someone who is disgusted with you? Yet you do and cry yourself to sleep, huh?


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## TahoeGuy

Hit my breaking point Sunday with her. 

Sick of the bull*hit. A light switch went off.

Sticking to my deadline to see what happens. When that deadline is reached...that's it. 

Being nice and wanting to cuddle up Saturday eveningto me. For 3 hours. We ended up arguing over something stupid and it came up "how hard she has been trying." I about died laughing and then the gates of hell opened up. I put my foot down, laid it out and pretty much threw the ball in her court. 

I told her that I REFUSE to live in a sexless marriage. She says she can't do it every night, and simply wants it once every 1-3 weeks. I said bull$hit to that and I'm not living like that. I mean it. She doesn't even THINK to 'take care' of her husband. WTF! 

*I. Have. Had. IT!* I'm sticking to my deadline -- if there isn't a 180 on HER part..I'm out. 

My sadness and feeling ugly, worthless and an unsuccessful sack of s**t has began to morph into anger. She wouldn't be where she is if it weren't for me. 

It has been proven to me numerous times that I'm not a bad looking guy and have p-l-e-n-t-y to offer someone else. I think that's what I may have needed. I was very uncomfortable...got a 'don't give a rats arse" attitude... threw a few smiles and warm "Hey there" 's out and was quite surprised at the responses I received. 

Looking back, I have always been very confident in myself and my decisions. I'll be a SOB if someone is going to rob me of that. 



Saturday -- Fairly ok.
Sunday -- HUGE argument, things died down and I laid it out on how this was going to work on my terms. 
Monday - VERY nice....
Tuesday -- becoming distant and cold again. I'm doing my own thing...keeping responses to a minimum.
Wednesday -- REAL cold today. 

Worked late Mon-Tues...coldness. 
Working late tonight -- coldness again. 

I have eyes in the sky...nothing happening at work I am pretty certain of that. 

Now we see how this game of chess works out.


More to come.


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## anchorwatch

*Re: In need of help -- Updated thread. Page 2*

About time you set the rules.


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## bigfoot

Tahoe, 
I'm gonna put together a few points of your former posts. You love your wife, lady friends say you don't send out that 'vibe', and you are concerned about other women having other sex partners. 

Your wife is broken. You can't fix her and she's emotionally abusing you. Divorce is not a punishment, its a result. A woman can love a man who physically abuses her, but to live, she needs to divorce. You are being abused, divorce already. Stop with the deadlines. This decision is not gonna work if its based on anger. "I'm gonna show her, I'll divorce her" is not the right approach. The marriage is dead, the woman is abusing you, its time to stop. It will hurt, but think of it like a death. You have to move on. Your kid is growing up just like you and your wife did. You are forcing your own messed up childhoods on him. You don't realize it because you've lived with dysfunction your whole life, so you think you are doing better. You are not. Your child deserves better. You and your wife together is toxic. a divorce may be bitter, but it will be sweeter than your marriage for your kid.

You don't send out that available vibe because you are married. End the marriage and then learn to be healthy alone and then learn to be unmarried and then the vibe will come. Right now, you should not be sending it. Kudos.

Sexual history is huge to you. Here's the thing, you bring your history of being with one woman. You know it was crap, but to another woman, she has to compete with that. So to them, you have sexual baggage. Next, if it was all about sex, well those women would be with those men, they aren't, so its about more than sex. Next, stop thinking of women as objects. They are not used up or run through by all those men. First, it was likely not a lot of men. Secondly, you got a virgin...how's that working out for you? Your wife is no prize. Two broke people found each other to fulfill broken concepts of what a mate was to offer and together you all could not make a functional unit. Abandon your faulty standards of what a good woman is, find out what you should be looking for, detox yourself from your wife and your background, and make a good parenting decision and get divorced.


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## TahoeGuy

Posting an update from the weekend:

This past Thursday I told the MC to go pound sand. I was by myself on this visit. Spent about 45 minutes telling him what was going on with my wife and I. He became what appeared to be short and upset. Flat out asked me what I wanted in this. I told him ..and was a bit of a smart arse about it (want it to work) and he basically said go to yoga because my mind is simply too busy. 

Wife and I had a brief argument on Friday AM. This time I had a house lined up large enough for our son and I to lease, etc. Not sure if that made much of a difference regarding what I have below Friday evening we ended up talking for a long time. A real long time. 

Both of us are wanting the same thing from this marriage, yet we are disconnected from eachother. Literally on the same page, but in different books. We talked a real heart-to-heart on many issues. She asked me if anyone has been interested in me now or in the past. I said there were several, one specifically that was quite vulgar about it. I'll save the details here but it involved descriptions of what she wanted me to do and where she wanted things to go. I shared this with my wife...all the details. Nothing ever happened as I was uncomfortable (I'm married!). The others were nothing like that. 

She was upset..but I flat out told her why be upset at me for the requests of another woman that I immediately shut down. I ask her the same question and she said there have been two individuals that tried hitting on her at work and she shut it down real quick. I have no reason to believe she is lying. At all. 

I asked her if she had a 'free ticket , no strings attached' option to go pick any man she wanted and do whatever she wanted with them, would she take it? The option is on the table, but I asked that I know about it if she does it. Her response (body language and voice) showed she was clearly uncomfortable and said no, absolutely not. 

I then asked if I wanted to be with another woman or if another woman could please me sexually...how would she feel. She said that she would feel awful and didn't think she could handle it emotionally. I did not expect this response. 

We continued to talk and ended with a peaceful goodnight, etc. 

Saturday we woke up and both of us initiated sex, the first time in quite a while. We did our deal and I felt awful afterwards. I ended up getting dressed and rolling over with my back to her. Told her that I felt like something was really missing with us and I had an awful feeling inside. Very disconnected. She tried to comfort me but I just had to deal with it myself. 

Had a good day the rest of the day and she was coming around. We went shopping and did a few other things together. Holding hands, hugging, kissing..etc. Got home and grabbed a shower together, snuggled up and fell asleep. 

Sunday I woke up to her hugging and loving on me. I was again surprised. Had a great day sunday together..she was very sweet, loving and so kind. Like the woman I married. Sunday she went to lunch with a friend that we both know. I believe the friend talked some sense into her. The friend knows both of us and she is a very level headed, kind woman with no BS inbetween. That evening we snuggled up and talked for several hours. Had a real nice evening. We fell asleep and again I woke up to her snuggled up and loving on me this morning. 

She said that she wanted to really work on our relationship, but remains uncertain. She is afraid things will go back the way they were. Hell, so am I! We both have to work on this if it will ever work. She wanted to really leave a few weeks ago, said she felt trapped like she couldn't do anything without me, etc. We also talked about that in depth and again, we were on teh same page but in a different book. 

A serious communication breakdown, a lack of time together (we have not been out alone or "alone" in the home with no one else in 5 years and out in probably 6-7), lack of affection, being selfish and not looking at eachother's needs. 


Literally did a 180 this weekend...I'm looking over my shoulder....feel like there is a knife on the way. Trying to dismiss the feeling and motor on forward with a positive outlook and stop worrying about the past. Maybe the 180 because she thinks she has something that other women may want? I can't piece it together. 

A close friend suggested that it may be temporary lust, give it time and see what happens, yet don't let my guard completely down. 


When we married she was indeed a very kind, sweet person. We truthfully grew apart, resentful, etc. A lot of complicated issues to say the least. 

I am still within my timeframe and will put my heart into this and give it a fair chance.


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## TahoeGuy

Shortly after the last post above I was on my way out. 

I had enough of giving 100% and getting back maybe 10% effort on her part. I guess it woke her up and things seem to be a little better, however I am now struggling. Bad. 

I continue to put forth 100% effort. Showing affection, love, and being a good husband / father. She has begun to show some affection but it is quite evident that she struggles with it. 

She was doing better with sex and it finally came out that she hates having sex. WTF! I got pissed off and basically told her she has a free card to go have sex with whoever she wants to, but I get the same free ticket. What happens after that with our marriage...happens. Most likely divorce for sure at that point. But, whatever. She got pissed off and said that if I want sex every day or every other day, I suppose I'll HAVE to do it so you won't be an a$shole. 

She says she loves me and cares for me, but does not feel in love. Nothing that I have been doing seems to be changing that, yet she wants to continue to work on it. 

I don't want to "continue to work on it" for the next 10-20 years. It is either going to work or not. She can not identify when she thinks she will know it is 'working out' or not. 

We do get along well, except when we have had small arguments she starts her sh*t saying she wants to leave. I finally told her to pack her crap and leave; I'll be damned if I'm going to walk on broken egg shells worrying when my wife is going to leave over any stupid argument. I made this really clear last night. 


Now I feel myself struggling to stay in love. I don't feel loved and have a very large void / missing piece of my marriage. I wish this would have never happened -- I never knew this void existed before. I feel like giving up, yet am afraid to do so. Looking at the other side, she is making an effort in the relationship. 
In other words, I have discovered an empty emotional room of mine that is full of cobwebs, dark and scary. This is the room that she should have been filling as a wife, partner, friend and lover. I feel so empty and at times feel really depressed and in the sh*tter. Some days are worse than others, but the feeling never goes away. 

I find myself looking at other couples and thinking how lucky the husband/boyfriends are that their partners show them affection, love, hugs/kisses in public or in front of the kids. This really eats me up. 

Looking back, I feel like I have missed out on so much. So much love, affection, sex, friendship, etc. We had it at one time....I hope we can get it back. 

She did say that she had no idea how much I loved her and she felt like she was on the back burner for 10+ years. How that is possible I have no idea. I responded that she was never home or a part of my life to feel it -- she was too worried about work, school or something else. She says that I was too worried about house work, yard work, cleaning / maintinaing the cars, etc. HELLO?!! who else would do it! 

ugh. Confused...confused I am.


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## Thound

TahoeGuy said:


> Shortly after the last post above I was on my way out.
> 
> I had enough of giving 100% and getting back maybe 10% effort on her part. I guess it woke her up and things seem to be a little better, however I am now struggling. Bad.
> 
> I continue to put forth 100% effort. Showing affection, love, and being a good husband / father. She has begun to show some affection but it is quite evident that she struggles with it.
> 
> She was doing better with sex and it finally came out that she hates having sex. WTF! I got pissed off and basically told her she has a free card to go have sex with whoever she wants to, but I get the same free ticket. What happens after that with our marriage...happens. Most likely divorce for sure at that point. But, whatever. She got pissed off and said that if I want sex every day or every other day, I suppose I'll HAVE to do it so you won't be an a$shole.
> 
> She says she loves me and cares for me, but does not feel in love. Nothing that I have been doing seems to be changing that, yet she wants to continue to work on it.
> 
> I don't want to "continue to work on it" for the next 10-20 years. It is either going to work or not. She can not identify when she thinks she will know it is 'working out' or not.
> 
> We do get along well, except when we have had small arguments she starts her sh*t saying she wants to leave. I finally told her to pack her crap and leave; I'll be damned if I'm going to walk on broken egg shells worrying when my wife is going to leave over any stupid argument. I made this really clear last night.
> 
> 
> Now I feel myself struggling to stay in love. I don't feel loved and have a very large void / missing piece of my marriage. I wish this would have never happened -- I never knew this void existed before. I feel like giving up, yet am afraid to do so. Looking at the other side, she is making an effort in the relationship.
> In other words, I have discovered an empty emotional room of mine that is full of cobwebs, dark and scary. This is the room that she should have been filling as a wife, partner, friend and lover. I feel so empty and at times feel really depressed and in the sh*tter. Some days are worse than others, but the feeling never goes away.
> 
> I find myself looking at other couples and thinking how lucky the husband/boyfriends are that their partners show them affection, love, hugs/kisses in public or in front of the kids. This really eats me up.
> 
> Looking back, I feel like I have missed out on so much. So much love, affection, sex, friendship, etc. We had it at one time....I hope we can get it back.
> 
> She did say that she had no idea how much I loved her and she felt like she was on the back burner for 10+ years. How that is possible I have no idea. I responded that she was never home or a part of my life to feel it -- she was too worried about work, school or something else. She says that I was too worried about house work, yard work, cleaning / maintinaing the cars, etc. HELLO?!! who else would do it!
> 
> ugh. Confused...confused I am.


What is more important to you? Sex or love and affection? The reason I ask is I feel a lot like you and Im courious if we agree on the issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> She got pissed off and said that if I want sex every day or every other day, I suppose I'll HAVE to do it so you won't be an a$shole.
> 
> She did say that she had no idea how much I loved her and she felt like she was on the back burner for 10+ years


*Both of you have to improve on the above issues*. You can stretch this out without improving much but you will not have a satisfactory marriage and you will become resentful more than you are now. You both need to improve and then oyu may save this marriage.

She is going to have to substantially improve her attitude of forced duty sex and you will have to show her lot of love with your actions. Get a GOOD counselor and both of you do what the counselor says for several months and see what happens. 

You both maybe able to improve substantially in both areas. If you both give it a real hard try and not much improvement then you had better get divorced so that you do not become a bitter old man that is sour on life.


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## Hicks

TahoeGuy said:


> Shortly after the last post above I was on my way out.
> 
> I had enough of giving 100% and getting back maybe 10% effort on her part. I guess it woke her up and things seem to be a little better, however I am now struggling. Bad.
> 
> I continue to put forth 100% effort. Showing affection, love, and being a good husband / father. She has begun to show some affection but it is quite evident that she struggles with it.
> 
> :



You can run a 4 minute mile and still lose the race if you take a wrong turn on the course. Do you know that the "effort" is being transmitted at her recieving frequency?



TahoeGuy said:


> She was doing better with sex and it finally came out that she hates having sex. WTF! I got pissed off and basically told her she has a free card to go have sex with whoever she wants to, but I get the same free ticket. What happens after that with our marriage...happens. Most likely divorce for sure at that point. But, whatever. She got pissed off and said that if I want sex every day or every other day, I suppose I'll HAVE to do it so you won't be an a$shole.
> :


These conversations need to be avoided. You don't want to delve into how your wife "feels" about sex. She was taught from a young age that sex is bad and wrong. So any time her logicial mind is speaking she will tell you that she hates it.





TahoeGuy said:


> She says she loves me and cares for me, but does not feel in love. Nothing that I have been doing seems to be changing that, yet she wants to continue to work on it.
> 
> I don't want to "continue to work on it" for the next 10-20 years. It is either going to work or not. She can not identify when she thinks she will know it is 'working out' or not.


Most of the conversation delving into her feelings is a bad idea. IF she wants to work on it, you simply make sure she knows from your point of view what a marriage is, what each person DOES in marriage. Not what each person FEELS.



TahoeGuy said:


> We do get along well, except when we have had small arguments she starts her sh*t saying she wants to leave. I finally told her to pack her crap and leave; I'll be damned if I'm going to walk on broken egg shells worrying when my wife is going to leave over any stupid argument. I made this really clear last night.


Absolutely the right way to handle a divorce threat. Great!



TahoeGuy said:


> Now I feel myself struggling to stay in love. I don't feel loved and have a very large void / missing piece of my marriage. I wish this would have never happened -- I never knew this void existed before. I feel like giving up, yet am afraid to do so. Looking at the other side, she is making an effort in the relationship.


You will not feel loved or feel like you are in love if your emotinal needs are not getting met. You don't force yourself to stay in love. The feeling of being in love follows your wife direct actions. You cannot manufacture it from within.

Give her credit for making an effort. But ultimately your needs are your needs and if she won't meet them, then you will not feel loved. 



TahoeGuy said:


> In other words, I have discovered an empty emotional room of mine that is full of cobwebs, dark and scary. This is the room that she should have been filling as a wife, partner, friend and lover. I feel so empty and at times feel really depressed and in the sh*tter. Some days are worse than others, but the feeling never goes away.
> 
> I find myself looking at other couples and thinking how lucky the husband/boyfriends are that their partners show them affection, love, hugs/kisses in public or in front of the kids. This really eats me up.
> 
> Looking back, I feel like I have missed out on so much. So much love, affection, sex, friendship, etc. We had it at one time....I hope we can get it back.


You are venting your pain here. It's understandable but not necessarily productive for you to have these thoughts running wild.




TahoeGuy said:


> She did say that she had no idea how much I loved her and she felt like she was on the back burner for 10+ years. How that is possible I have no idea. I responded that she was never home or a part of my life to feel it -- she was too worried about work, school or something else. She says that I was too worried about house work, yard work, cleaning / maintinaing the cars, etc. HELLO?!! who else would do it!
> 
> ugh. Confused...confused I am.


So even though you were "giving" 100% she was not receiving 100%. You were the guy running the 4 minute mile but taking a wrong turn on the course and losing the race. 
Just as your emtional needs are not really debatable, nor are hers. Just becuase wives "should" appreciate what you do does not mean your specific wife does. You really must unlock the code of what is important to her.

Your wife's feelings will follow your ability to meet her emotional needs. Now if you are CERTAIN that you are meeting her needs and she is still unhappy and unwilling to meet yours... This certainly happens... That's when you realize she is selfish and not wife material for you any more.

Regarding the sexual frequency / desire level... You were on the right track earlier when you said to her that you will not be in a sexless marriage. Don't debate with her about her feelings. Just state your desires. Remind her occasionally if need be. Let her process what it means to be your wife. If she is being a crappy wife, don't be the ideal husband. If she does something well, praise her. If she is unhappy make sure she is giving you feedback about what her emotional needs are. Don't jump through hoops.

Here is the kicker. NEVER EVER offer for her to sleep with someone else of say anything that will cause her to think about sleeping with another man. NEVER ask her if you can sleep with anyone else. She will not feel safe enough to give herself to you sexually.


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## GusPolinski

Your wife needs a less demanding job.


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## synthetic

Your wife is either having an affair or has a crush on someone else. Her workplace is the most likely location you'd find her new 'crush'.

She also sounds like a candidate for personality disorders. Read the first post in this thread and tell me if it rings a bell:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html

Don't be so stubborn. Get out of this miserable marriage. I lived your life for 12 years and regret every single minute of it. Wasted my entire 20s on a girl that never respected me, never knew what she wanted and for sure doesn't know what 'love' is. Every day I wake up damning myself for allowing her to waste my youth and wealth for so long.

Get out.

Also read this link multiple times. This is you: DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?


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## missthelove2013

So the MORE she rejects you, the MORE you do for her

um..will you marry me?? 


Seriously...start the 180...immerse yourself in your career, child, hobbies...start detaching...she will either fight to get you back or encourage your 180...if she encourages it, file for D, its OVER


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## TahoeGuy

Mr Blunt said:


> *Both of you have to improve on the above issues*. You can stretch this out without improving much but you will not have a satisfactory marriage and you will become resentful more than you are now. You both need to improve and then oyu may save this marriage.
> 
> She is going to have to substantially improve her attitude of forced duty sex and you will have to show her lot of love with your actions. Get a GOOD counselor and both of you do what the counselor says for several months and see what happens.
> 
> You both maybe able to improve substantially in both areas. If you both give it a real hard try and not much improvement then you had better get divorced so that you do not become a bitter old man that is sour on life.



it is not "forced sex" for crying out loud. I spent from the time I was 20 until June 2014 being a nice compliant person when it comes to sex. In other words, I feel like a caged MF animal at this point. 

The CORE cause of all of the problems we are having lies on sex, affection and desire. Everything comes before our marriage in her eyes; especially work! She refuses to see any fault on her side. 

I have told her if she would put 1/10th of the effort in our marriage as she does work, we would be significantly better. I also mentioned that a woman who abuses her husband with a loveless marriage does not deserve to have him. 

I know I bring a lot to the table...I am starting to see the light now. This is not how a marriage is supposed to be. I just need to get the balls to say the hell with it. 

HOWEVER, I am struggling *very* hard with this when looking at the repercussions of a divorce on our child. Their little innocent world will be literally ripped to hell. Changed from private school to public school in the middle of the school year, moving again and shuffled between mom and dad's house. I will fight to the bloody death for full custody...a 70/30 share at minimum. 

I feel beat down and emotionally drained like I have never been. It's been three months, minimal improvement and Mr. Hard-ass himself is beginning to feel defeated. 
I am not supposed to feel like this in a marriage. I feel completely unloved, not desired, and financially trapped.


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## TahoeGuy

missthelove2013 said:


> So the MORE she rejects you, the MORE you do for her
> 
> um..will you marry me??
> 
> 
> Seriously...start the 180...immerse yourself in your career, child, hobbies...start detaching...she will either fight to get you back or encourage your 180...if she encourages it, file for D, its OVER




I haven't been doing a dam thing around the house. The lawn is luck to get mowed.

I have stopped:
Cleaning the house (vac, mopping the floors, cleaning bathrooms, showers, dusting, you name it).
Cooking dinner -- I only make enough food for my child and I each night.
Dishes pile up in the sink. One time was so bad we were eating off of paper plates / forks. I let the trash overflow and told her she needed to clean it up. She finally did it. 
The cars....this is killing me. I always kept the cars (and house) in absolute pristine condition. Washed every 3 days, door jambs wiped down, wheel wells cleaned, tires/wheel wells shined, etc. They haven't been washed in weeks. One vehicle I took out mud-bogging with our child. We had a blast. It was filthy until it rained. 

So rewarding her? Not hardly. I am a different person that feels like I have no soul and could give a rats a-- about anything anymore other than my child. 

It is awful.


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## TahoeGuy

synthetic said:


> Your wife is either having an affair or has a crush on someone else. Her workplace is the most likely location you'd find her new 'crush'.
> 
> She also sounds like a candidate for personality disorders. Read the first post in this thread and tell me if it rings a bell:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html
> 
> Don't be so stubborn. Get out of this miserable marriage. I lived your life for 12 years and regret every single minute of it. Wasted my entire 20s on a girl that never respected me, never knew what she wanted and for sure doesn't know what 'love' is. Every day I wake up damning myself for allowing her to waste my youth and wealth for so long.
> 
> Get out.
> 
> Also read this link multiple times. This is you: DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?





I believe she is depressed. 

I don't think there is an affair / crush. I have people on the inside where she works that continue to report clear skies. They are trustworthy. Also checking pantyliners, underwear, etc.


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