# Refusing Duty Sex - Good or Bad?



## tamhubby (Aug 24, 2017)

What are your thoughts on turning down duty sex?

I'm a typical HD husband with a typical LD wife and although I'm aching for more passion and desire in my marriage I have reached a point where, despite still loving my wife and caring for her deeply, I have little interest in having sex with a woman who has little interest in having sex with me - it's hugely unfulfilling and more than a little demoralizing.

On the occasions where she recognizes my frustrations, realizes it's been a while, and responds with offers of duty sex (yes, it's duty sex), should I be accepting and grateful that she's making an effort (all be it little and late) or turning her down? I'm finding it increasingly difficult to be enthusiastic towards half-hearted, dutiful attempts at intimacy but I worry that turning her down will make matters worse.

Thoughts?


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## hairyhead (Oct 30, 2015)

Talk. Don't just turn down.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## Noble1 (Oct 25, 2013)

Never settle for "bad" sex. It will only lend to the impression that you will be ok with it.

Good luck.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Well here is the thing. IF you expect her to initiate sex, and she is LD...it simply will never happen, and you might as well become a monk.

However, many LD women CAN get sexually aroused IF you do the right foreplay....get them thinking of sexy thoughts ahead of time, etc. With the right approach, for the next 30 minutes they CAN become horny again, and have a good orgasm...maybe even multiple orgasms.

Just be prepared a hour later it will be back to doing the dishes, or whatever they were doing, as the though of sex is long gone by then.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Something is already wrong. Duty sex is just a symptom. Have a discussion and find out what the root problem is. It might be fixable it might not be. 

I know how you feel though. My ex told me one time that she "just didn't have time to think about it (having sex with me) because she was just too busy!" Then I started getting it once a week for a while before it settled back into the once every other week or month routine. I never felt loved or connected. It just postponed the inevitable in my case.

So my thoughts are - duty sex is bad. Not because the sex is bad, but because it a sign of a much deeper issue which must be dealt with. In my case it never was and I am divorced now.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think it depends on how its offered:

If its "I'd love to do XYZ for you tonight". then its fine. 

If its "I'm really tired and not in the mood, but if you really want we can have sex". Then say no, that its passion and lovemaking that you want, not "sex".


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

tamhubby said:


> What are your thoughts on turning down duty sex?


Neither choice will lead to achieving your wish of your wife enjoying having sex with you. It's a difficult decision. However,if there is no threat of you leaving, I think that accepting duty sex is the better of two bland choices.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Assuming there are no major underlying medical issues low libido can be attributed to the LL partner simply no longer viewing their mate as a sexual option. Basically they're not attracted to you anymore so sex with you is uncomfortable and a chore.

The duty sex is them realizing they're neglecting you and trying to at least keep you from leaving. I would continue to turn it down, I'm sure this has been discussed so turning it down shouldn't be a surprise. 

Talk-talk-talk, I'm sure the issue has been discussed to death, but your partner will rarely say "I'm sorry I just don't view you as a sexual option anymore", if they won't be honest talking is of no use.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

IMO, a decision to turn down duty sex is the first step on the path to leaving her. I decided my marriage was over and could not be fixed, so stopped initiating sex (which almost always was rejected), and stopped responding to any of her rare advances. It helped me achieve clarity that I really did need to get out - and I did.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

tamhubby said:


> What are your thoughts on turning down duty sex?
> 
> ...I have little interest in having sex with a woman who has little interest in having sex with me - it's hugely unfulfilling and more than a little demoralizing.
> 
> ...


I have been where you are. My advice is to sign up for counseling for you and your W with a sex therapist. You need to get to the bottom of the problem and getting help to negotiate some form of compromise.

For me I was HD and my wife gradually become No-D. It was a long downward path where we were each not fulfilling each other's needs. Eventually I got fed up and decided I was going to fix myself and try to fix my marriage. I read a bunch of relationship books.

If you haven't read MW Davis the Sex Starved Marriage, Glover's No More Nice Guy and Chapman's the 5 Languages of Love, I would recommend all of them. Study them and you just might figure out that you are part of the problem. I did and worked on changing myself so that my wife got the emotional support she needed. More importantly I become a much more integrated man who no longer needed validation by my wife. That meant that I was no longer an emotionally clingy or needy man constantly pestering my wife for sex. 

Ultimately through sex therapy we reached a compromise on frequency of sex that would allow our marriage to continue. 

What I learned from my wife was that for her to really enjoy sex and orgasm, she needs to be able to completely clear her mind and enter a zen-like state. To do that requires a big effort on her part and mine. She needs to organize her next day make sure that she has written down any details she would normally keep in her mind and I need to massage her back and neck to the point she is totally relaxed. If we both do that, then she can have a great orgasm and we can have great sex.

Sometimes she just can't clear her minds and relax enough. During those times she will offer me her body, because she loves me and wants to pleasure me. I have learned not to view it as duty sex, but as a loving wife, who wants to pleasure the man she loves. My wife is LD and I am HD. There is no way she can make herself become HD. The best she can do is have sex at a negotiated frequency that is not too much for her to handle and not too little for me to handle. That means by definition that some of the time, she just might not orgasm or be as wild as I would like.

So, yes, once you and your wife and improved your relationship and she offers you the gift of her body because she loves you and wants to please you........accept it. She is LD and it is not duty sex, it is her expressing her love to and for you

Good luck.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Young at Heart said:


> Sometimes she just can't clear her minds and relax enough. During those times she will offer me her body, because she loves me and wants to pleasure me. I have learned not to view it as duty sex, but as a loving wife, who wants to pleasure the man she loves.


As shown here, this is probably the best likely outcome. Lovingly given duty sex is the most realistic successful outcome in these types of situations. The chance that she will actually become HD (or even initiate out of desire) is very low. If the HD partner will only accept her becoming HD, failure is almost certain. Not to mention, the pressure that puts on her of thinking she's a failure if she doesn't live up to expectations.

Reluctant duty sex should be refused. If it's clear she doesn't want to or feels like she's being forced to, it will just make things worse. But even then, the refusal should be done with compassion, understanding, and a willingness to work on a solution which you can both live with.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

My wife and I have had issues with frequency. I am HD and she isn't. 

I think I could have ended up with Duty Sex if I was lazy. Often times, it takes a bunch of work to get her in the mood. Like 'Young at Heart', my wife needs to really clear her mind. Neck and back massages help. But it is often difficult to get her to try. Sometimes I have to just start massaging her even though she is being grumpy about it. Eventually she will open up.

She will often just turn around and push he butt against me, letting me know she is ready. I could easily just do it and then go to sleep. But I don't allow that. I know she is somewhat turned on and I know how to get her more turned on. A use of a vibrator quite often, and my fingers and my mouth usually gets her really into it.

I don't like that I have to put in most of the effort to get it started. Would be nice if she would just want it, without my prodding. But it seems to work for us.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> My wife and I have had issues with frequency. I am HD and she isn't.
> 
> I think I could have ended up with Duty Sex if I was lazy. Often times, it takes a bunch of work to get her in the mood. Like 'Young at Heart', my wife needs to really clear her mind. Neck and back massages help. But it is often difficult to get her to try. Sometimes I have to just start massaging her even though she is being grumpy about it. Eventually she will open up.
> 
> ...


Putting in the extra effort like this, even when mostly one-sided, can be worthwhile when you get a positive response - and the rest of the relationship is also very good.

While my wife often initiates and is very passionate, it usually takes a lot of effort (and time) from me to make the experience as great for her, as she makes it for me. No one previoiusly ever made that effort for her - if they had, I might never have met her.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

tamhubby said:


> What are your thoughts on turning down duty sex?


Offering duty sex is a form of sexual initiation, and turning it down can be just as emotionally devastating as turning down any other attempt at initiating sex within the marriage. Especially if she is aware that you then go and try to find alternate ways enjoy your libido alone and apart from her. 

Here are my recommendations:

#1 Accept the offer but counter with another offer that you will be happy to just wait if there will be an opportunity soon where she will have a better chance to enjoy the moment with you...

...if she declines be patient and understand she may be struggling with some form of sexual anxiety, so do not be pushy and insist that she HAS to enjoy herself. Nothing is a bigger turn off than that, I can assure you!...

#2 Once you engage in a one-sided session of sexual intimacy, be sure to try and use the opportunity to build your wife's confidence. Tell her why you love her so much and be grateful for the fact that she is trying to please you. Also try and simply allow her to enjoy pleasing you, as some people receive the majority of not all their sexual validation in that manner, for which she will eventually begin to respond to that after a few times.

#3 After the fact, be sure and let her see you sexually satisfied or else she may feel inadequate. Do this by increasing opportunities and instances of nonsexual intimacy. This way she can enjoy being close to you without the fear of you pursuing her physically. 

The result of working to improve her confidence AND to improve emotional closeness should help alleviate whatever is causing her anxiety and improve the quality of your marriage overall. Give it some time and physical intimacy will become more natural and a shared experience. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I think it depends on how its offered:
> 
> If its "I'd love to do XYZ for you tonight". then its fine.
> 
> If its "I'm really tired and not in the mood, but if you really want we can have sex". Then say no, that its passion and lovemaking that you want, not "sex".


The last sentence is spot on - my wife pulled this one on me when our kids were about a year old. We finally got a sitter and went out to a nice dinner, then a friends house. Sex was obviously on the agenda. Got home, let the sitter go, and she immediately gets her pj's on and says that she's really tired but will have sex if I want. Told her no thanks. The next week we actually talk about having sex when we get home, but when we get home, she starts complaining about cramps so no dice. After that, I finally wised up that she has no interest in sex.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I've been on the receiving end of duty sex a number times. 

I think it's a little more tricky than a simple yes or no. 

There have been times she has offered up duty sex and I accepted it and it ended up being mutually gratifying and bonding. Sometimes you actually have to start doing it to get in the mood for it.

However, there have been other times where I took the opportunity and I came away feeling resentful, frustrated and at times downright "dirty." 

Worse yet, I could tell she came away feeling disgusted and also resentful.

IMHO those times were actually damaging to the relationship and I wish i had not gone through with it.

Lovemaking should be bonding and uplifting and nuturing to the relationship.

If it is not and if it is actually causing resentment and disdain, then it is causing harm and should not be done.

The challenge is knowing the difference of whether a mercy f**k is going to end up turning into a pleasurable and bonding experience vs when people are going to come away with a bad taste in their mouths (no pun intended)

What I have learned is if she is truly the one making the attempt and making the initiation, I will do my best to make it good for her and make it a positive experience for us as a couple. 

But if it's something I'm trying to get going and I get a "OK fine, just get it over with." Then discretion is the better part of valor and it's best to tactfully back off and hope for another day.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

You need to change your attitude Bc your not headed to a very good place being so negative about your wife. Have you talked to her about it?

This is what I don't understand... if your horney and want to have sex and your wife doesn't refuse why can't you just enjoy having sex with your wife? You get to feel her body on yours, you get to have an orgasm and feel the release. What's the problem? I don't understand why men would rather masterbate than have duty sex. 

You have a wife that loves you and doesn't refuse. I bet she loves sex when she is having it but just doesn't feel like it when she isn't having it If that makes sense. Just talk to her. Maybe you aren't giving her what she needs on the relationship front so she doesn't feel the drive to have sex with you.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> You need to change your attitude Bc your not headed to a very good place being so negative about your wife. Have you talked to her about it?
> 
> This is what I don't understand... if your horney and want to have sex and your wife doesn't refuse why can't you just enjoy having sex with your wife? You get to feel her body on yours, you get to have an orgasm and feel the release. What's the problem? I don't understand why men would rather masterbate than have duty sex.
> 
> You have a wife that loves you and doesn't refuse. I bet she loves sex when she is having it but just doesn't feel like it when she isn't having it If that makes sense. Just talk to her. Maybe you aren't giving her what she needs on the relationship front so she doesn't feel the drive to have sex with you.


Read through the responses and you will have your answer.

People want to be wanted and desires and for it be a mutually exciting and mutually pleasurable and bonding experience.

That men just want a warm vagina to ejaculate into and be good with it is a terrible sterio type and terribly misandronistic attitude.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Read through the responses and you will have your answer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I totally understand that. But one has to be realistic as well. Many women would love a man to write her poetry, and music and take long walks on the beach and have long conversations about feelings and love. But we will settle for the every once in a while flowers and the "date night" that is just a regular day together. His wife is LD according to him. The best advice I can give is continue to have Sex with her but talk to her about his needs and how she makes him feel.


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## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

Talker67 said:


> Well here is the thing. IF you expect her to initiate sex, and she is LD...it simply will never happen, and you might as well *become a monk*.












Sneak-dissing now, are we?

@tamhubby

I agree with the above poster. I think these types of situations rarely improve. It's either learn to live with it or leave. There are some cases where there is a turn around but they are so rare odds are your situation isn't one of them, might be, but more likely might not.

Maybe if you turn your lifestyle a little things will change. Start to workout, go out (without her), do things you enjoy to take your mind off her. Don't do it for her. Do it for you. Then (and I am reluctant to mention this because as I said it is not for her) maybe this turnabout will endear her to you more. Again, don't do it if the aim is just more sex. It will fail.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

And also it could be just a phase. We don't know their age, how many and how old their kids are, whether she is over exhausted for whatever reason.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think its because in many cases it isn't really "sex" that men (or women) want. Lets face it, most people can get themselves off moire easily with their hands or a sex toy than they can with a partner.

I think when people talk about lacking sex, they may really be lacking being desired. Being desired is a huge ego boost, and think of all the effort people go through to satisfy their egos. Being told by the person you love that they don't really want sex, but will do it if they have to is saying that you are so undesirable that even though they "love" you, its a chore to have sex. 

Its sort of like saying "could you wear something more covering, I really don't like seeing your body". Or, "we can talk if you want, but I'd really rather read a book, you just don't have anything interesting to say". 


I frequently go on business trips. I could easily hire a call girl and have a beautiful woman do anything I wanted in bed. Why don't I? I'd like to say its due to some moral superiority, but it really isn't. Its because the idea of needing to *pay* someone to have sex with me is just so pathetic. It would be admitting that I'm so boring / ugly / undesirable / terrible lover that no normal woman would want me. 









katiecrna said:


> You need to change your attitude Bc your not headed to a very good place being so negative about your wife. Have you talked to her about it?
> 
> This is what I don't understand... if your horney and want to have sex and your wife doesn't refuse why can't you just enjoy having sex with your wife? You get to feel her body on yours, you get to have an orgasm and feel the release. What's the problem? I don't understand why men would rather masterbate than have duty sex.
> 
> You have a wife that loves you and doesn't refuse. I bet she loves sex when she is having it but just doesn't feel like it when she isn't having it If that makes sense. Just talk to her. Maybe you aren't giving her what she needs on the relationship front so she doesn't feel the drive to have sex with you.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Strangely some of the HD men in HD/LD relationships do most of that. 

My poetry isn't great, but I frequently send love notes. We do go for long walks together - on the beach if we are on vacation near it, but often in a very nice park near our house since we don't live near the beach. She gets flowers regularly, sometimes by surprise at work. We have real date nights frequently - go out to a nice place for dinner, or a play or something. She happily admits that I do everything she could want. 

Despite that she almost never wants sex. In many cases it really isn't the HD's fault, the LD just doesn't want sex. Its not that I am undesirable, its that she doesn't desire anyone. 






katiecrna said:


> I totally understand that. But one has to be realistic as well. Many women would love a man to write her poetry, and music and take long walks on the beach and have long conversations about feelings and love. But we will settle for the every once in a while flowers and the "date night" that is just a regular day together. His wife is LD according to him. The best advice I can give is continue to have Sex with her but talk to her about his needs and how she makes him feel.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I think its because in many cases it isn't really "sex" that men (or women) want. Lets face it, most people can get themselves off moire easily with their hands or a sex toy than they can with a partner.
> 
> 
> 
> I think when people talk about lacking sex, they may really be lacking being desired. Being desired is a huge ego boost, and think of all the effort people go through to satisfy their egos. Being told by the person you love that they don't really want sex, but will do it if they have to is saying that you are so undesirable that even though they "love" you, its a chore to have sex.




Yes. Everyone loves to feel desired because it boosts our ego and makes us feel good about ourselves. And at the end of the day a lot of us only care about ourselves and how we feel. So not having sex with your wife out of spite even though you want to isn't the answer. It's actually a recipe for disaster. The need to feel wanted and desired is why most people cheat. 
The problem is what makes us feel wanted and desired differs from person to person obviously. There needs to be a balance of trying to meet your partners needs and accepting them for who they are and being happy with what you have and feeling and expressing gratitude for your partner. A recipe for disaster is to think of your needs only and use them as terms to qualify your partners love for you and wrap up your happiness and self esteem in your "needs", and think it's your spouses job to meet them. Man marriage is hard.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think some of this needs to be on the person offering "duty sex". 

If someone is going to offer duty sex, is it so difficult to say "I'd love to do XYZ for you. I don't feel like anything in return tonight, but I love pleasing you". rather than "We can do XYX if you really want, but I'm pretty tired to try to get it over with quickly". 

In both case they are offering XYZ, but the first is done in a way that encourages acceptance, the second is basically saying "I will dislike doing this, and you are taking advantage of me by accepting". 

Part of the problem is that its difficult to turn off the need for sexual desire. I know my wife loves me and just has low libido, but it still feels terrible every time she makes it clear that she doesn't want sex with me. 




katiecrna said:


> Yes. Everyone loves to feel desired because it boosts our ego and makes us feel good about ourselves. And at the end of the day a lot of us only care about ourselves and how we feel. So not having sex with your wife out of spite even though you want to isn't the answer. It's actually a recipe for disaster. The need to feel wanted and desired is why most people cheat.
> The problem is what makes us feel wanted and desired differs from person to person obviously. There needs to be a balance of trying to meet your partners needs and accepting them for who they are and being happy with what you have and feeling and expressing gratitude for your partner. A recipe for disaster is to think of your needs only and use them as terms to qualify your partners love for you and wrap up your happiness and self esteem in your "needs", and think it's your spouses job to meet them. Man marriage is hard.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I think some of this needs to be on the person offering "duty sex".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"We can do XYX if you really want, but I'm pretty tired to try to get it over with quickly". 

!!!!!what!!!!! If someone said this that is incredibly hurtful and wrong and that should be called out right away as in.... never ever say that again it's incredible rude and hurtful. 
Wow that's just wrong.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

There needs to be like a code or something because words can be hurtful. 
I always thought it was hurtful when my stbxh asked if we could have sex. It was so not sexy and made me feel ugly. 

Whatever happened to how it was when we were honeymooners or when we were dating you know? Like start out with kissing or affection and it was either met with acceptance or a... "honey I can't right now". To me; that is a win-win.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> "We can do XYX if you really want, but I'm pretty tired to try to get it over with quickly".
> 
> !!!!!what!!!!! If someone said this that is incredibly hurtful and wrong and that should be called out right away as in.... never ever say that again it's incredible rude and hurtful.
> Wow that's just wrong.


That's what @uhtred was saying. The above quote is the WRONG way to do it. But it's the way many LD partners present duty sex.

It sounds like they are actually trying to deter their partner from taking advantage of the duty sex.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Ynot said:


> Something is already wrong. Duty sex is just a symptom. Have a discussion and find out what the root problem is. It might be fixable it might not be.
> 
> I know how you feel though. My ex told me one time that she "just didn't have time to think about it (having sex with me) because she was just too busy!" Then I started getting it once a week for a while before it settled back into the once every other week or month routine. I never felt loved or connected. It just postponed the inevitable in my case.
> 
> So my thoughts are - duty sex is bad. Not because the sex is bad, but because it a sign of a much deeper issue which must be dealt with. In my case it never was and I am divorced now.


I think @Ynot makes a very good point here. In most cases, a decline in sex isn't the actual problem; it's a symptom of the problem. If you can fix the underlying problem, the sex will come back on its own, in most cases. IF you can fix the problem.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> . So not having sex with your wife out of spite even though you want to isn't the answer. It's actually a recipe for disaster.


But it's not out of spite. 

If someone doesn't want to have sex with me, why would I want to have sex with them?

Often times duty sex leaves you feeling worse than not having sex at all. 

Declining that is not a spiteful act. It is not doing something that will make you feel worse if you did it than if you didn't. 

After a certain point, duty sex is worse than celibacy.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

That's something I and other HDs in HD/LD relationships get frequently. 

A typical one I get is "If you like we can get to bed and I can give you a [handjob] but I'm pretty tired so only if you don't think you will be slow". 

Often even when we have what she considers mutual sex she will often indicate that she wants "something quick". 

Or if we are stating to be intimate, she will ask "is there anything you would like tonight?. I'll suggest something (reasonable) and get "I think I'm too tired for that tonight, maybe next time" (which means maybe in a few months, maybe not). 

The one time I tried to discuss this, she got upset. She said she was "sleeping badly and really tired" even though somehow that didn't keep her from doing other things she wanted. And saying that the things I asked for (for example oral) were "completely different" from the things I do for her ( which include oral - and anything she has ever asked for). 

There is no winning in a situation where one person really doesn't want much sex. 

I think people how haven't lived with a true LD person may not realize what it is like. 








katiecrna said:


> "We can do XYX if you really want, but I'm pretty tired to try to get it over with quickly".
> 
> !!!!!what!!!!! If someone said this that is incredibly hurtful and wrong and that should be called out right away as in.... never ever say that again it's incredible rude and hurtful.
> Wow that's just wrong.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

That really is how it *should* be. 

The idea of starting kissing, and at some point its OK for someone to say "honey I can't right now" is fine, but not if it happens *every* time. Its been at least a year since my wife last accepted when I initiated by gentle hugs / kisses / intimacy. Every time she would very nicely tell me that she didn't feel like it *tonight*. 

When she does feel like sex, she is the one to basically walk up with no preamble and say "lets get to bed". 

Another poster (sorry, I forget who) said that he discovered that his wife did not equate sex and romance at all. She did not want a romantic build-up to sex. She was happy with both, but kept them separate in her mind, and trying to turn romance into sex just cheapened it for her. I wonder if this is common for LDs?




katiecrna said:


> There needs to be like a code or something because words can be hurtful.
> I always thought it was hurtful when my stbxh asked if we could have sex. It was so not sexy and made me feel ugly.
> 
> Whatever happened to how it was when we were honeymooners or when we were dating you know? Like start out with kissing or affection and it was either met with acceptance or a... "honey I can't right now". To me; that is a win-win.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

uhtred said:


> That's something I and other HDs in HD/LD relationships get frequently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I mean come on... I hate to be the one to tell you this but this isn't a low drive issue, this is a controlling, disrespectful wife issue. Listen people have LD, it's a real thing. BUT it doesn't make it ok to talk to your husband that way. 
She is acting like a waiter, and your a customer. What would you like today? Oral sex? Sorry that's not on the menu, but I will be able to offer you some scraps from the kitchen... how about a quick hand job? Only if you hurry up because I might change my mind. 
Also... if you try to discuss something that is important to you and she shuts you down... that is so disrespectful. I'm sorry but your wife is telling you that she doesn't care what you want and what is important to you if she treats you like this. It's her world and your just happy to live in it apparently. This is not a LD issue.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> That's what @uhtred was saying. The above quote is the WRONG way to do it. But it's the way many LD partners present duty sex.
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like they are actually trying to deter their partner from taking advantage of the duty sex.




I think LD is code for controlling/disrespectful wife who doesn't want to do what she doesn't want to do. 

I get that LD is a real thing, but a LD person who loves and respects her husband surely doesn't talk to their husband like this. A loving and respectful wife will understand how important her husbands needs are to him, and even if she is LD she will be sensitive to her husbands needs!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I think people how haven't lived with a true LD person may not realize what it is like.


This ^^^^^^^

Someone who really hasn't experienced it thinks that it is just less passionate than the other 90% of the time the couple has sex. Everyone has an off-day now and then and everyone has offered up a helping hand to their partner at one time or another when they weren't at the top of their game and their partner was in the mood. 

That isn't what OP meant here. The topic of "Duty Sex" in this context is a day-in/day-out, chronic lack of attraction and desire and lack of any kind of semblance of passion and intimacy and is merely allowing the use of their body for the other person to masturbate with so the other person doesn't toss their arse out into the street and leave them; and also so if they do leave them that they can tell their friends and family and marriage counselor, "..but I did have sex with him/her at least weekly/monthly/yearly."

That is duty sex!

Duty sex is not giving your partner some lovin's even though you aren't a ball of passion that night. 

Duty sex is talking a deep breath and biting your tongue and looking at the clock hoping that it gets done soon so you don't have to endure it one minute longer than necessary so that your partner continues provide money for the mortgage and bills and so you don't have to raise the children by yourself. 

Duty sex is not an occasional lackluster but pleasant event that happens when someone has had a particularly long day and isn't at full energy levels. 

It is a soul-crushing and disheartening dynamic that leaves you questioning your very desirability and worth as a lover and a husband/wife or even human being. 

It's a chronic condition where you know the person you love and desire, has no intrinsic desire for you and is just placating (for the time being at least) because they know that if they stop engaging in sexual activity altogether that the marriage will end. And for the time being at least, they are willing to sacrifice a little sleep or a little Jimmy Fallon or a little Facebook time to keep from losing 24/7 access to their children or losing their comfortable house in the suburbs. 

That is what duty sex is. And until someone has been on the receiving end of it, they have no clue.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

uhtred said:


> That really is how it *should* be.
> 
> 
> 
> The idea of starting kissing, and at some point its OK for someone to say "honey I can't right now" is fine, but not if it happens *every* time. Its been at least a year since my wife last accepted when I initiated by gentle hugs / kisses / intimacy. Every time she would very nicely tell me that she didn't feel like it *tonight*.




So asking for sex and having her say fine but make it quick is better? 
I'm sorry I don't mean to come off like a jerk. I'm sorry your wife is like this. I personally wouldn't be able to handle being in a marriage like this, it would kill my already low self esteem. I truly hope your wife treats you great in other areas.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> I think LD is code for controlling/disrespectful wife who doesn't want to do what she doesn't want to do.
> 
> I get that LD is a real thing, but a LD person who loves and respects her husband surely doesn't talk to their husband like this. A loving and respectful wife will understand how important her husbands needs are to him, and even if she is LD she will be sensitive to her husbands needs!


Read my post immediately above about what duty sex is and what it is not. 

The terms LD and duty sex are not interchangeable. They can occur together but they can also be two different things. 

If you haven't experienced it; you don't get it. It's not a simple, "if you love your spouse, you will meet their needs and they will be thankful and appreciative that you did....."

Duty sex is in the realm of dysfunction and maladaption and a sign of very serious problems in the marriage for both parties. it's not a one-off thing that can be remedied with a good nights sleep and a night out on the town for some fun to get the juices flowing again.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> This ^^^^^^^
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This is not duty sex!!! This is passive aggressive rape!

Duty sex is when you don't refuse your husband. As a Christian person We have had many discussions about duty sex and whether or not you should say no to him. Duty sex is... I'm exhausted but it's my duty as a wife to have sex with my husband because I am the only person who can. It's my duty. 

What your talking about is something twisted and completely messed up.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Duty sex is in the realm of dysfunction and maladaption and a sign of very serious problems in the marriage for both parties. it's not a one-off thing that can be remedied with a good nights sleep and a night out on the town for some fun to get the juices flowing again.




I cannot disagree with you more.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> This is not duty sex!!! This is passive aggressive rape!
> 
> Duty sex is when you don't refuse your husband. As a Christian person We have had many discussions about duty sex and whether or not you should say no to him. Duty sex is... I'm exhausted but it's my duty as a wife to have sex with my husband because I am the only person who can. It's my duty.
> 
> What your talking about is something twisted and completely messed up.


The concept of Christian "submitting to your spouse" and the current vernacular of 'duty sex' are two different things. 

The Christian wife who submits to her husband even though she may be tired and have her mind on other things at the moment, may still love and desire him and may still have an intrinsic sexual attraction for him - she's just not in the mood this particular time. 


The term duty sex as the OP was using it, is a dynamic of having a chronic lack of desire and attraction for one's spouse and willing oneself into having periodic sexual contact to keep from getting divorced. 

Two different things.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> The concept of Christian "submitting to your spouse" and the current vernacular of 'duty sex' are two different things.
> 
> The Christian wife who submits to her husband even though she may be tired and have her mind on other things at the moment, may still love and desire him and may still have an intrinsic sexual attraction for him - she's just not in the mood this particular time.
> 
> ...




We are just going to disagree. 
Duty sex to me means you have sex when you don't want to. Duty sex with a LD person means that it's chronic. But what you described before is on a whole other level of what the OP meant.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> There needs to be like a code or something because words can be hurtful.
> I always thought it was hurtful when my stbxh asked if we could have sex. It was so not sexy and made me feel ugly.
> 
> Whatever happened to how it was when we were honeymooners or when we were dating you know? Like start out with kissing or affection and it was either met with acceptance or a... "honey I can't right now". To me; that is a win-win.


Sucks for the partner to put forth the effort with love gestures only to be turned down.

Much less painful to ask hey want to fool around if they so no you don't feel as rejected.

How would you feel if you came up to your man and started kissing him grabbing his crotch only to hear him say honey I can't right now.

I know being on the receiving end of that sucks pretty bad!


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Duty sex is little more than an "adage of convenience" largely for the benefit of the fearful "low-drive" to "no-drive" partner to largely satiate their personal fear of or non-activity within what should be a normally and more spontaneous and loving sex act with their marital partner!*


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## tamhubby (Aug 24, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> ....
> 
> The term duty sex as the OP was using it, is a dynamic of having a chronic lack of desire and attraction for one's spouse and willing oneself into having periodic sexual contact to keep from getting divorced.
> 
> ...


Yes. Regardless the different interpretations of the term "duty sex", this is what I was referring to in my original post.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

uhtred said:


> There is no winning in a situation where one person really doesn't want much sex.


You win by leaving, and finding a better match. If you can't fix it, leave. Sadly, most don't leave or wait too long to leave - I waited far too long, but eventually left. I just wish I'd done so sooner - but hindsight is always clearer.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I used to ask my husband for a back rub. I stopped asking because his effort in rubbing my back was CLEARLY indicating he didn't want to rub my back. This was during my first pregnancy more than 30 years ago. I hear other women talk of how solicitous their husbands were/are during their pregnancy and still get angry that I failed to recognize the problem way back when.

Some people hide their selfishness with acts of kindness (when it suits them and they have an audience) and being mild mannered. 

I don't know too many people who are happy in their marriage to a selfish spouse.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

If the wife does a "uggg fine, whatever just be quick about it"
No, he should never take her up in it. Also never if it is painful or uncomfortable (women's vaginas naturally open when turned on, sex without being turned on can be painful or uncomfortable even with lube) 

The offer of pleasing her should always be on the table and not just she lays down and you start oral. Most women can't get in the mood from 0 to enjoying it that quick. 

If she says no to sex, don't ask for a bj or a hj... I've heard of this happening 

If you say yes you are reinforcing that you don't actually care about making it a mutual, passionate thing. You just want to get off. That you can do on your own. 

If you are trying to make your wife understand that you are looking for a connection and love during sex then don't accept anything less. 

I would absolutely offer and love giving something one sided to my man because I know it'll all even out in the end and he would do the same for me. That's the kind of "duty sex" that should be accepted imo.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> You win by leaving, and finding a better match. If you can't fix it, leave. Sadly, most don't leave or wait too long to leave - I waited far too long, but eventually left. I just wish I'd done so sooner - but hindsight is always clearer.


My opinion as a casual observer that doesn't have that relationship dynamic: I think you don't actually have to leave. You just have to project that you would never tolerate this type of relationship and that it is something you would end the relationship over the very first time it starts. Basically, prevention early on is the key rather than falling into the pattern of accepting duty sex.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Bananapeel said:


> My opinion as a casual observer that doesn't have that relationship dynamic: I think you don't actually have to leave. You just have to project that you would never tolerate this type of relationship and that it is something you would end the relationship over the very first time it starts. Basically, prevention early on is the key rather than falling into the pattern of accepting duty sex.


Often, the duty sex scenario arises _after_ you've been married a while. How do you not accept it/prevent it? You leave!


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

But if you always projected the attitude that you'd leave over it, then it probably wouldn't ever happen. So, which came first the chicken (duty sex) or the egg (projecting that it would be tolerated in the relationship)?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

tamhubby said:


> Yes. Regardless the different interpretations of the term "duty sex", this is what I was referring to in my original post.





> a dynamic of having a chronic lack of desire and attraction for one's spouse and willing oneself into having periodic sexual contact to keep from getting divorced.


 @tamhubby assuming your wife has actually told you that she no longer has any desire and she is not physically attracted to you... 

...you need to acknowledge that you are in a survival situation fueled mostly by fear of divorce. In order to rekindle a spark, it will be as challenging as starting a fire with your bare hands in the snow. You can't just wait around for something to spark and provide you with needed warmth, you will need to get creative and start trying anything/everything to rekindle your relationship. 

As for rekindling a fire with just your bare hands in a relationship and you just happen to have a jar of coconut oil...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The last is the real tragedy of some LD/HD relationships. The rest of our relationship is great. She is very good to me (and I am to her) in lots of other ways. We are affectionate and loving. We try to do things to make the other happy - I spend hours walking in gardens with her even though I'm not a great fan of gardens. She went all the way to Moscow with me to see the Russian aircraft museum even though she isn't all that interested in airplanes. Neither of these was a "chore" we genuinely enjoy making the other happy.

She is smart, fun to be with, has always had a good job etc. 

Its just sex that is the problem. As a LD she simply cannot understand that it matters to me, no matter how much I try to explain, and as a LD, having sex when she doesn't want is is so awful that she is unable (unwilling) to do it. 

I understand it, but it doesn't make it any less painful. 

My self esteem is only saved by the fact that other women clearly find me attractive. 




katiecrna said:


> So asking for sex and having her say fine but make it quick is better?
> I'm sorry I don't mean to come off like a jerk. I'm sorry your wife is like this. I personally wouldn't be able to handle being in a marriage like this, it would kill my already low self esteem. I truly hope your wife treats you great in other areas.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think people are using different definitions of "duty sex" as they often use different definitions of "LD". That is fine, I don't think there is a single accepted definition of either, but we need to be careful that we are talking about the same thing.

What you describe is also duty sex. But now imagine that you always feel like that - that months or years go by where you are always so exhausted that while you are willing to have sex, you don't enjoy it. 




katiecrna said:


> This is not duty sex!!! This is passive aggressive rape!
> 
> Duty sex is when you don't refuse your husband. As a Christian person We have had many discussions about duty sex and whether or not you should say no to him. Duty sex is... I'm exhausted but it's my duty as a wife to have sex with my husband because I am the only person who can. It's my duty.
> 
> What your talking about is something twisted and completely messed up.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The problem is that sex is not the only important thing in a relationship. 

I actually agree with leaving if you recognize the problem early. If you have been married for a long time though, leaving is much more difficult. There is a long term emotional bond that you do not want to break. 






Married but Happy said:


> You win by leaving, and finding a better match. If you can't fix it, leave. Sadly, most don't leave or wait too long to leave - I waited far too long, but eventually left. I just wish I'd done so sooner - but hindsight is always clearer.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> This is what I don't understand... if your horney and want to have sex and your wife doesn't refuse why can't you just enjoy having sex with your wife? You get to feel her body on yours, you get to have an orgasm and feel the release. What's the problem? I don't understand why men would rather masterbate than have duty sex.


We're not wild animals, we need a connection too. If the wife isn't into it every now and again fine. But when all you get is duty sex? That means she doesn't love you, not how a wife needs to love a husband and that's why men hate duty sex. It's a reminder to them that she would rather be intimate with someone else, not you.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I agree, but what if all that is ever offered is duty sex?






SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> If the wife does a "uggg fine, whatever just be quick about it"
> No, he should never take her up in it. Also never if it is painful or uncomfortable (women's vaginas naturally open when turned on, sex without being turned on can be painful or uncomfortable even with lube)
> 
> The offer of pleasing her should always be on the table and not just she lays down and you start oral. Most women can't get in the mood from 0 to enjoying it that quick.
> ...


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## pushing50 (Aug 5, 2010)

> I agree, but what if all that is ever offered is duty sex?


Then going to bed feels like a nightly "last mile".


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

uhtred said:


> The problem is that sex is not the only important thing in a relationship.
> 
> I actually agree with leaving if you recognize the problem early. If you have been married for a long time though, leaving is much more difficult. There is a long term emotional bond that you do not want to break.


I left after a long time. The problem started early, but it took a long time to completely erode the emotional bond. When the damage was irreversible, I left. Had I known back then how difficult and unlikely it is to find a happy solution for such mismatches, I'd have left much sooner - but there was little easily accessible information before the internet became ubiquitous. Leaving was still difficult, but necessary.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I think people are using different definitions of "duty sex" as they often use different definitions of "LD". That is fine, I don't think there is a single accepted definition of either, but we need to be careful that we are talking about the same thing.
> 
> What you describe is also duty sex. But now imagine that you always feel like that - that months or years go by where you are always so exhausted that while you are willing to have sex, you don't enjoy it.


While what Katie was saying was accurate in many ways, I think what she was calling duty sex was actually the Christian concept of Submission.

Christian submission has a few similarities but also many significant differences to the current internet vernacular of "duty sex."

Christian submission assumes mutual love, affection, devotion and a mutual placing the other's needs above your current wants. 

In submission, there may be a healthy libido and an innate attraction and desire for the spouse. But it is submitting to the partners needs in times that the other may not necessarily be in the mood at that particular time.

To her credit, it is a 'duty' to submit to the partner's needs and well being even in times of not being horny yourself at times.

However the vernacular of "Duty Sex" as the term is used in internet relationship and sex forums is fundamentally different. 

The term "duty sex" is used in this context as a dysfunctional and maladaptive relationship dynamic where one party is not sexually attracted to their partner and/or otherwise never has any intrinsic desire to have sexual contact with them, but they do periodically suck it up and take one for the team so that the other does not leave. It is a chronic and indefinate dynamic and is not a random and periodic episode due to any current circumstance. 

Katie wasn't wrong in anything she said, she was just referencing a different context.


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

Try to remember what you said, and use the same words when it is something she wants to do. Sure we can go out for dinner, as long as it won't take too long. Act bored and say are you done yet at a restaurant. The trick I believe is to have a fight about something else important to her and then discuss sex in the context of your entire relationship. In a good relationship, people do things because it gives your spouse pleasure, and do not make a point of indicating they are unpleasant.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Bobby5000 said:


> Try to remember what you said, and use the same words when it is something she wants to do. Sure we can go out for dinner, as long as it won't take too long. Act bored and say are you done yet at a restaurant. The trick I believe is to have a fight about something else important to her and then discuss sex in the context of your entire relationship. In a good relationship, people do things because it gives your spouse pleasure, and do not make a point of indicating they are unpleasant.


In some cases, this may work. Unfortunately it has a pretty low success rate, because to someone who places a low value on sex, they also tend to compartmentalize it, and have a difficult making the logical connection. In short, they see it as something completely apart and separate from everything else, including their partner and the relationship, and thus nothing is comparable. They simply can not make the connection.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes, this is key!

It is too easy to argue that "sex is different" from any comparable. Its not just LD's who do this, but HDs as well.

I think sex *is* different, and that really is the root cause of all these issues. To the HD, sex is an inseparable part of love and affection and romance. To the LD, it is something you sometimes do, extremely unpleasant / degrading if you are not in the mood. 






samyeagar said:


> In some cases, this may work. Unfortunately it has a pretty low success rate, because to someone who places a low value on sex, they also tend to compartmentalize it, and have a difficult making the logical connection. In short, they see it as something completely apart and separate from everything else, including their partner and the relationship, and thus nothing is comparable. They simply can not make the connection.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> In some cases, this may work. Unfortunately it has a pretty low success rate


Depends on what you mean by "work" and "success".

I agree, if done consistently, it often will result in the end of the relationship rather than in generating more sex. But if your spouse does not enjoy having sex with you, and reciprocity (you treating them as to dinner dates the same way that they treat you as to sex) results in divorce, I would say the technique "worked" and "successfully" ended the libido mismatch.

It just didn't save the relationship. Most libido mismatch relationships end long prior to either partner's death. Most of them ought to end far sooner than they do. If reciprocity hastens the end of the relationship, I see that as a good thing.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Depends on what you mean by "work" and "success".
> 
> I agree, if done consistently, it often will result in the end of the relationship rather than in generating more sex. But if your spouse does not enjoy having sex with you, and reciprocity (you treating them as to dinner dates the same way that they treat you as to sex) results in divorce, I would say the technique "worked" and "successfully" ended the libido mismatch.
> 
> It just didn't save the relationship. Most libido mismatch relationships end long prior to either partner's death. Most of them ought to end far sooner than they do. If reciprocity hastens the end of the relationship, I see that as a good thing.


I wasn't necessarily looking at sex as the success or failure, rather just being able to elicit a sympathetic response through analogy. If a person is actually invested in the relationship, and helping their partner be happy and satisfied, then this approach my help flip the switch to understanding. So what you were seeing as success of sorts, I was seeing failure, but each of us was seeing the same end result, so I guess we actually agreed


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> We are just going to disagree.
> Duty sex to me means you have sex when you don't want to. Duty sex with a LD person means that it's chronic. But what you described before is on a whole other level of what the OP meant.


Let me share my perspective. In my marriage, I am HD. In counseling with a sex therapist, I was asked what was the minimum frequency that would allow me to be happily married. After a lot of though, I said three times a week. The Sex Therapist found that my wife wanted sex may twice every three weeks to once a week. We negotiated a compromise of twice a week with the sex therapist to save the marriage. We can both live with that.

However, my wife when she wants sex, really wants sex. She likes the feeling of an orgasm and pleasuring me, just not as frequently as I do. This is an HD/LD relationship. She actually gets "horny" just not that often. It also takes a lot of effort on her part to clear her schedule, write down any details she is trying to keep in her head, get caught up on sleep, so she can be in the mood for sex. 

HD/LD is a mismatch of sex drives and needs. It doesn't mean one partner doesn't love the other. It doesn't mean that sex is not important to them. It just means they like it less often. It doesn't mean that they "hate sex" or find it repugnant.

As an HD male whose wife was no-D for a while, I have emotional scars from sexual denial. My wife understands all of this.

Because we are an HD/LD couple who have sex twice a week, I know and she knows she is not always going to be horny when we have sex. I also know that no matter how hard I try there will be some sexual encounters where she doesn't orgasm no matter how much foreplay I provide. Still we can both take pleasure in joining together and feeling that we are one. Sex is suppose to be a bonding experience and if approached with the right mindset it will be. 

The negative "duty sex" concept to me seems to be one of mindset. That is why when my wife is not in the mood, but wants to pleasure me I view it as her giving me the gift of her body. Of course her mindset is on love and pleasuring her husband. Good sex should be about making love.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> That is why when my wife is not in the mood, but wants to pleasure me I view it as her giving me the gift of her body. Of course her mindset is on love and pleasuring her husband. Good sex should be about making love.


That's all well and good _if _that's actually her mindset. If she enjoys pleasuring you, then she is getting something out of it and, therefore, it isn't duty sex. It's something she's actually appreciating, even if not on an intense physical level.

Duty sex is when the though process is more like "okay, if I have to get on my back to get him off my back, then I'll do it. And hopefully it won't take too long and I can get back to my life."


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> Let me share my perspective. In my marriage, I am HD. In counseling with a sex therapist, I was asked what was the minimum frequency that would allow me to be happily married. After a lot of though, I said three times a week. The Sex Therapist found that my wife wanted sex may twice every three weeks to once a week. We negotiated a compromise of twice a week with the sex therapist to save the marriage. We can both live with that.
> 
> However, my wife when she wants sex, really wants sex. She likes the feeling of an orgasm and pleasuring me, just not as frequently as I do. This is an HD/LD relationship. She actually gets "horny" just not that often. It also takes a lot of effort on her part to clear her schedule, write down any details she is trying to keep in her head, get caught up on sleep, so she can be in the mood for sex.
> 
> ...


IMHO this is an excellent example of the Christian concept of submission that I discussed earlier. She is submitting to you the contact you need to be happy enough to remain in a good, long term marriage and you are submitting to her that you will not pressure, threaten or cajole her into any more than what she is comfortable with or any more than what you actually need to remain good with the relationship.

And it's important to note that she does have a reasonably normal sex drive and sexual response as well as an attraction and desire for you.

This is an example of differing sex drives and not a lack of attraction or desire. 

This is not "Duty Sex" as it is commonly defined on the internet today. 

What is often described as "Duty Sex" is a chronic lack of attraction or desire for any sex with that partner at all and the only sex is what is being offered up begrudgingly to keep the other from actually leaving.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That's all well and good _if _that's actually her mindset. If she enjoys pleasuring you, then she is getting something out of it and, therefore, it isn't duty sex. It's something she's actually appreciating, even if not on an intense physical level.
> ."


That's a good way to put it as well. 

Duty sex is typically something that one does because they feel they "have to" in order to remain married, but they really don't get anything out of it themselves and it is just another household chore that has to be checked off the to-do list once the other party starts whining and begging too much.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

You think “duty sex” is bad? Try “shut up” sex, LOL. That’s what I would get after months on end of nothing. It was the type of sex that was sort of rough and quick where he would say afterward “there, that should shut you up for a while”. My exH was a real peach.

A switch flipped in his head after 2 years of marriage. He was one of those people that @Anon Pink spoke of … he had to have an outside audience in order to pretend to be a decent human being.

What a mind**** that was.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I can't "like" that post, but you have my sympathy. What a (insert term for bad human) he was. 

Duty sex is bad, but there is worse. 

If only there was some way to know everyone's sexual preferences before getting into a relationship so that people could be matched with compatible partners. 





Red Sonja said:


> You think “duty sex” is bad? Try “shut up” sex, LOL. That’s what I would get after months on end of nothing. It was the type of sex that was sort of rough and quick where he would say afterward “there, that should shut you up for a while”. My exH was a real peach.
> 
> A switch flipped in his head after 2 years of marriage. He was one of those people that @Anon Pink spoke of … he had to have an outside audience in order to pretend to be a decent human being.
> 
> What a mind**** that was.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> ....Duty sex is when the though process is more like "okay, if I have to get on my back to get him off my back, then I'll do it. And hopefully it won't take too long and I can get back to my life."





oldshirt said:


> ....What is often described as "Duty Sex" is a chronic lack of attraction or desire for any sex with that partner at all and the only sex is what is being offered up begrudgingly to keep the other from actually leaving.





oldshirt said:


> ....Duty sex is typically something that one does because they feel they "have to" in order to remain married, but they really don't get anything out of it themselves and it is just another household chore that has to be checked off the to-do list once the other party starts whining and begging too much.



I agree with those three descriptions, that if a woman takes no pleasure/enjoyment and views it as one more chore to do before she can focus on herself and her needs, then it is probably not worth doing.

However in an HD/LD relationship (which the OP stated was his case) the LD partner will be under pressure to stretch to have sex more frequently than they would prefer (Just as the HD partner may have to accept (hopefully with grace and a smile) that they don't get all the sex they want. If their mindsets aren't right, then the LD partner "could easily" view the above LD amount of sex in a negative way and express those feelings, which could influence how the HD partner views it. Which is why I think both need to put on their best "beer goggles" and view the act of sex as a positive bonding experience and positively reinforce each other's enjoyment of the bonding.

There were some examples of emotional cruelty such as "hurry up so I can sleep" and other statements. If the LD partner communicates (verbally, by body language, facial expression) that sex is revolting, or absolutely not wanted, then there is a real problem in the marriage. To me that is an example of what David Schnarch refers to as marital sadism, where a spouse uses their knowledge of the needs and emotions of their partner to inflict emotional pain and suffering. The sadist could easily be either the HD or LD partner.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

uhtred said:


> ......If only there was some way to know everyone's sexual preferences before getting into a relationship so that people could be matched with compatible partners.


The problem is that things are not static. What might be acceptable to both prior to children, might be totally unacceptable to one or both after children. Compatibility changes over time.

One of the interesting concepts of David Schnarch (Passionate Marriage, the Crucible, etc) is that marriage is the hardest thing two people can do, if done right. Marriage is a "people emotional growing" machine. 

Two individuals are required to become a single functioning marital unit. Two people who are emotionally growing and maturing or changing at different rates are in a constant state of dragging their partner or being dragged by their partner. That pressure forces them to be constantly adjusting their limits and boundaries and compromising what they will accept from their spouse.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

LD-HD, duty sex-starfish sex, gift sex- doing it to please the partner, so what is "Time to dump on him"-complain about a bunch of stuff sex? 

What about having to use a condom (she is LD and has an "ick" factor, he us HD) even if the W or H is fixed?

* Red Sonja
.....he would say afterward “there, that should shut you up for a while”. My exH was a real peach.*

More than what a "peach" and it isn't on the positive side. All I can say or do is give you a cyber hug. 
(((( Red Sonja))))

Young at Heart I remember you from "Divorce Busting." It is good to hear you made it through the starvation days.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> I agree with those three descriptions, that if a woman takes no pleasure/enjoyment and views it as one more chore to do before she can focus on herself and her needs, then it is probably not worth doing.
> 
> However in an HD/LD relationship (which the OP stated was his case) the LD partner will be under pressure to stretch to have sex more frequently than they would prefer (Just as the HD partner may have to accept (hopefully with grace and a smile) that they don't get all the sex they want. If their mindsets aren't right, then the LD partner "could easily" view the above LD amount of sex in a negative way and express those feelings, which could influence how the HD partner views it. Which is why I think both need to put on their best "beer goggles" and view the act of sex as a positive bonding experience and positively reinforce each other's enjoyment of the bonding.
> 
> There were some examples of emotional cruelty such as "hurry up so I can sleep" and other statements. If the LD partner communicates (verbally, by body language, facial expression) that sex is revolting, or absolutely not wanted, then there is a real problem in the marriage. To me that is an example of what David Schnarch refers to as marital sadism, where a spouse uses their knowledge of the needs and emotions of their partner to inflict emotional pain and suffering. The sadist could easily be either the HD or LD partner.


I am really not wanting to make this thread about definitions and terms although I have kind of already done that inadvertently. 

But a point I want to make here is that a key feature here is that one person basically does not have a desire to have sex with their spouse, but does on occasion offer it up to shut up their partner. 

In terms of HD vs LD, one could make the argument that that they are HD and LD in terms of each other. 

However we need to be careful in labeling people as HD and LD as a classification of person. 

Yes, the OP did use the terms HD and LD, but what we don't know is if his wife truly has a lacking libido and sex drive or simply does not desire sex with HIM.

While the topic of this thread is not infidelity and nothing has suggested infidelity, it does need to be pointed out that many times these people that think that their spouse has no desire and no libido, they find out the crushing truth that their supposed LD partner is in fact having high-energy, monkey sex with someone else. Or they find a hidden stash of sex toys or find out that their partner is masturbating to porn on a near daily basis. 

This can be either male or female but the fact remains that the person is not really LD at all, they just have no desire to be sexual with their partner. 

In my opinion, the crux of the duty sex dilemma is not really should it be accepted or rejected, but rather the root cause of the denying partner's lack of desire for their partner is what needs to be further explored. 

cont....


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cont.....



Duty sex needs to be looked at as not a static state of being and whether it should be accepted or rejected. 

But rather it needs to be looked at as a sign of a rapidly deteriorating relationship and as a harbinger of a fast-approaching breakdown of a marriage. 

Duty sex is only one step away from sexlessness. Left untreated that, " OK fine, just hurry up and get it done as fast as you can so I can get back to what I was doing," Will quickly turn into a flat and indefinite, "NO!" in a short amount of time. 

Duty sex is not simply a compensatory mechanism or compromise of mismatched sex drives. It is a breakdown and deterioration of the romantic/sexual component of the relationship which if left untreated will eventually lead to bitterness, resentments, hostility etc and will spill over into all other aspects of the relationship. 

Duty sex is a blatant shot across the bow warning that a relationship is heading into dangerous and destructive waters and should be treated as such. 

If lovemaking and marital sexuality/affection/romance is becoming a distasteful chore for someone that ranks right up there with scrubbing the skid marks out of the toilet, that is cause for alarm and a call to action.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

But what if sex IS revolting to them? What if they can't help it, its just how they feel?





Young at Heart said:


> snip
> 
> There were some examples of emotional cruelty such as "hurry up so I can sleep" and other statements. If the LD partner communicates (verbally, by body language, facial expression) that sex is revolting, or absolutely not wanted, then there is a real problem in the marriage. To me that is an example of what David Schnarch refers to as marital sadism, where a spouse uses their knowledge of the needs and emotions of their partner to inflict emotional pain and suffering. The sadist could easily be either the HD or LD partner.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

uhtred said:


> But what if sex IS revolting to them? What if they can't help it, its just how they feel?


Then it is addressed like any other compatibility problem:

The HD either lives with it or moves on.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Y'all are looking at it the wrong way. Duty sex is all about the logistics of sex, that is, why and when you're doing it, who has the desire and who don't.

You can look at it from the standpoint of what it means. Do you wake up the next day feeling "emotionally recharged" so to speak or do you feel like you just mowed the lawn? Or nothing?


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

duty sex CAN have an important place in your life. Lets say one of you is very LD, but agrees to "duty sex". Take out a calendar and put an X on every day you plan on getting laid this month. Maybe it is every thursday night, or saturday morning. 

This CAN help. No matter HOW LD the spouse it, seeing that big X coming up, will get their mind thinking of sex, getting resolved to getting laid. Maybe, with time, it turns from "duty sex" to actually prestimulating their libido so they are looking forward to X-Day?

In a lot of cases, an LD spouse can be temporarily distracted to become horny by stimulating their minds first. And maybe a simple request, such as asking the LD woman to wear skimpy lingerie, or the man to spray on some hot cologne....will get them thinking in a sexy way ahead of time too.


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## ZDog377 (May 31, 2015)

I know what I have gone through is well documented on here. Her and I have had the discussion about low desire many times. She has come out and said that she only had sex to get pregnant, now that I have had the vasectomy that chance is gone. She has also said that she only does it to make me happy and that she doesn't get anything from it. I have told her that I want to be desired and for her to want it too, but I guess that this is as good as it will get.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

ZDog377 said:


> I know what I have gone through is well documented on here. Her and I have had the discussion about low desire many times. She has come out and said that she only had sex to get pregnant, now that I have had the vasectomy that chance is gone. She has also said that she only does it to make me happy and that she doesn't get anything from it. I have told her that I want to be desired and for her to want it too, but I guess that this is as good as it will get.


It is if you allow it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ZDog377 said:


> I know what I have gone through is well documented on here. Her and I have had the discussion about low desire many times. She has come out and said that she only had sex to get pregnant, now that I have had the vasectomy that chance is gone. She has also said that she only does it to make me happy and that she doesn't get anything from it. I have told her that I want to be desired and for her to want it too, but I guess that this is as good as it will get.


If you want to be desired and wanted sexually, you have two options - 

- one is transform yourself into someone that she would desire (ie hit the gym, dress better, style and groom different, become more seductive and sexy and learn to push her horny buttons better.

- find someone else that finds you desirable as you are now.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Red Sonja said:


> You think “duty sex” is bad? Try “shut up” sex, LOL. That’s what I would get after months on end of nothing. It was the type of sex that was sort of rough and quick where he would say afterward “there, that should shut you up for a while”. My exH was a real peach.
> 
> A switch flipped in his head after 2 years of marriage. He was one of those people that @Anon Pink spoke of … he had to have an outside audience in order to pretend to be a decent human being.
> 
> What a mind**** that was.


That sounds exactly like the last 2-3 years of my marriage! 

Good riddance to bad rubbish, I say! We are both better off.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> If you want to be desired and wanted sexually, you have two options -
> 
> - one is transform yourself into someone that she would desire (ie hit the gym, dress better, style and groom different, become more seductive and sexy and learn to push her horny buttons better.
> 
> - find someone else that finds you desirable as you are now.


To elaborate... 

@oldshirt some spouses have responsive desires. This works on an emotional level much the same in physics with an instance of acoustical sympathetic vibration. If one gives off a certain vibe and a spouse can't help but to naturally resonate with that. This is how the response of desire is compelled into motion... through sympathetic vibration of emotions so to speak. 

So in order to get your wife to desire you, one must first desire themselves in a way that gets a wife all excited. Generally speaking this is done by being unrealistically confident about yourself as if your wife is super lucky to be married to you (regardless how she claims she feels). Eventually she will begin resonating with your emotions and you'll have yourself some sparks to work with!

Same thing work for husbands that are always grumpy and party poops. The wife can't help but to begin resonating pessimism and frustration in every direction. The reason this does not work with just desire, is that if you are grumpy and frustrated with your desire, your wife will only resonate grumpy frustration and not the desire. 

Make sense? 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

uhtred said:


> But what if sex IS revolting to them? What if they can't help it, its just how they feel?


IF sex is actually REVOLTING to them...they would need psychological counseling. It would be a good reason to divorce them and not look back.

Sex is revolting is like saying YOU are revolting to them.


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## ZDog377 (May 31, 2015)

Talker67 said:


> IF sex is actually REVOLTING to them...they would need psychological counseling. It would be a good reason to divorce them and not look back.
> 
> Sex is revolting is like saying YOU are revolting to them.



The big question is if they are willing to go to counseling or not.....


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

The big question is if sex in general is revolting or sex with him is revolting. 

If she was single and dating, would she want and desire sex with the new partner? Or is she asexual with no drive for anyone? 

There's always advice to go to the gym. I find gym guys unattractive. I would find attraction in him working with his hands. Build a deck, a gazebo, an extra bathroom in the basement. Get an old car and build it up with the kids, teaching them tools and labour. That is hot to me. Makes me want to bring him ice drinks and bang him in the garage. 
Going to the gym would be a turn off. I hit next on any guy who said he liked to go to the gym on their dating profile or had any gym pictures. 

You really have to know your specific woman and what she likes. 

Sometimes it's a matter of becoming too comfortable in the marriage. You both come home from work, watch tv, go to bed. You love them like a brother or sister and not a romantic partner. That's kind of hard to get in the mood for. 

Do new things, date, explore, keep things fresh. Hard to start doing after not doing it for so long and sometimes the feeling is just gone and won't come back.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

ZDog377 said:


> Talker67 said:
> 
> 
> > IF sex is actually REVOLTING to them...they would need psychological counseling. It would be a good reason to divorce them and not look back.
> ...


I think the bigger question is if counseling can actually cure someone's feelings that sex, or a specific person, are revolting.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> There's always advice to go to the gym. I find gym guys unattractive. I would find attraction in him working with his hands. Build a deck, a gazebo, an extra bathroom in the basement. Get an old car and build it up with the kids, teaching them tools and labour. That is hot to me. Makes me want to bring him ice drinks and bang him in the garage.


But would you bang him in the garage if he was 100lbs overweight and had a big, white, hairy gut hanging over his crotch and you couldn't tell where his chin and neck ends and his manboobs begin?

Would you be hot for that guy even if he was building the Great Pyramid it'self?

People have to have at least a baseline of health and normal vigor. 

I'm not talking about someone being a bodybuilder or fitness model or fitness athlete.

If someone has let themselves go and has out on 50+ lbs a bodyfat, step #1 is getting back to a normal, healthy body composition and state of vigor.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Idk. ''Duty sex'' sounds like a chore the person is checking off of a list. I wouldn't think that would be very arousing. 

I think it would be better to get to why your wife doesn't want to have sex, in general. If you love someone, if you have chemistry, that should be part of a healthy relationship. It seems like so many people push this part of marriage under the bed, when it really should be addressed. Just sounds like roommates to me.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Either a couple's sexual dynamic works for them, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, you can move on, if you dare. I'd move on, because I'll never settle for a substandard sex life ever again. (As an example, responsive desire is inadequate - I'd move on ASAP.) Sure, we could be highly compatible otherwise, in which case I'd hope for an amicable separation, and continuing friendship - but not a marriage.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> But would you bang him in the garage if he was 100lbs overweight and had a big, white, hairy gut hanging over his crotch and you couldn't tell where his chin and neck ends and his manboobs begin?
> 
> Would you be hot for that guy even if he was building the Great Pyramid it'self?
> 
> ...


I would have done something before it got to that point. Suggest we start walking together, go dancing, find a project to do. There are plenty of ways to trim up without going to the gym and a lot of them can be added in to date night which kills 2 birds with 1 stone.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I would have done something before it got to that point. Suggest we start walking together, go dancing, find a project to do. There are plenty of ways to trim up without going to the gym and a lot of them can be added in to date night which kills 2 birds with 1 stone.


I understand what you are saying, but don't you think these women also suggested going for walks or doing projects or going for bike rides and eating healthy around 4,239 times also before finally losing their attraction? 

Failure to act on their suggestions/requests/hints and outright statements of what is turning them off is a part of process of the loss of attraction. 

When people say, "go to the gym" it is not necessarily telling them to spend hours a day in the gym strutting around in their Under Armor and checking out their own biceps in the mirrors from 27 different angles. It's not advising them to become a gym rat spending 3 hours a day in the gym and a couple hours a day tanning and arguing with their gym bro's about which Power Pro Bar or which Muscle Triplicator shake gives you the best metabolic ion release formula. They are saying to get off the couch and stop living on cheeseburgers, fries and cream donuts and start getting the shape and outline of a healthy, vigorous adult male. 

Not all women require six pack abz to be sexually attracted to a man (Thank God!) but there is not a woman alive that is turned on by 50+ lbs of extra flab. And every single woman that ever walked the earth is turned off by greasy, unkempt, dirty hair and brown, rotten teeth and slovenly, straggely beards with chewing tobacco stains in it. And lets not forget about the powerful effect of BO. 

A lot of guys in the world, just look like crap and do not take care of themselves or put any effort into their appearance or their hygiene or their odor. And then they whine that they aren't getting laid. 

If men want to have sex, they have to look good, smell good and be sexy. If some guy complains that his wife doesn't want to have sex with him, the first question he should ask himself is would any other women want to have sex with him either.

If the honest answer to that is no, then the 1st step is for him to start grooming, styling and dressing better and get himself into a physical condition that at least has the outline of a healthy adult male. 

Once that has been accomplished, then he can start looking into relationship issues and interpersonal communication issues and his style of seduction and initiation and foreplay and sexual technique etc. 

But if a dude is 100lbs overweight, then nothing else he does is going to matter until he gets down to at least a somewhat healthy and vigorous level of fitness.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> Another poster (sorry, I forget who) said that he discovered that his wife did not equate sex and romance at all. She did not want a romantic build-up to sex. She was happy with both, but kept them separate in her mind, and trying to turn romance into sex just cheapened it for her. I wonder if this is common for LDs?


That may have been me, but I've heard it a couple of times here from others, too.

But yeah, my wife does not equate one with the other at all. Doing all the things that would make many other woman swoon doesn't have that effect on her. She likes and appreciates it, of course, but it doesn't result in sex - not that it _should_, of course, but that's normally the way it works.

For some, none of this "works". Being sexy doesn't work. Telling them they're sexy doesn't work. Romance, attention, long massages, communication, even touching - doesn't work. It's like the wires are crossed somewhere, where 1+2 does not = 3.

I realized a long while ago that regardless of what 'effort' I put into things, there's no increase in sexual interest on her part. Obviously it's a positive for the relationship, therefore I continue to make an effort. But sexually it has zero bearing on anything.

There are times (I'm in one now) where I just kind of go through life, not making much of an effort with that stuff, but also not NOT making an effort. There's no difference in anything, really.

The sad thing is, I know I will probably lose interest in it all at some point, and wind up just doing my own thing, and everything will still be the same..


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

katiecrna said:


> I mean come on... I hate to be the one to tell you this but this isn't a low drive issue, this is a controlling, disrespectful wife issue. Listen people have LD, it's a real thing. BUT it doesn't make it ok to talk to your husband that way.
> She is acting like a waiter, and your a customer. What would you like today? Oral sex? Sorry that's not on the menu, but I will be able to offer you some scraps from the kitchen... how about a quick hand job? Only if you hurry up because I might change my mind.
> Also... if you try to discuss something that is important to you and she shuts you down... that is so disrespectful. I'm sorry but your wife is telling you that she doesn't care what you want and what is important to you if she treats you like this. It's her world and your just happy to live in it apparently. This is not a LD issue.


I fully agree with this.

It started (and still has elements of) being an LD issue for sure, however.

But yes, it's become a control issue, a "I really don't care what you want or need" issue, and sadly, a "playing games" issue. There's no way it's not. There's no way Mrs. U isn't aware of everything she does and says - none.

To give her some credit, I don't think she fully realizes the scope of the games she's playing, however. Nor do I think she's doing it for fun. Rather it's become the norm, and something she just doesn't think about, or even recognize any more. I don't believe it's purposefully to hurt him or anything, but is more like a defense mechanism and just the way she deals with it all.

U, you have to ask yourself - why would she ask what you want, or offer something, then literally take it away immediately like that? Or attach conditions to it? ("as long as you're quick" etc).

That's not the mark of someone who _actually_ cares about your needs. You're mistaking it for that, though, as is she, I suspect.

I've said from the beginning - she's playing games with you. But. I don't think she's consciously, maliciously, completely aware that she is. Her end goal is solely for her, therefore she has to play this game of pretending to care about your needs. She's happy (clearly). She's getting everything she wants out of this marriage and more. You're a great husband to her, attentive, caring, loving - AND you allow/accept her behaviour.

Again, it's not malicious, per se. She's not some cunning hussy who's playing you for a fool - nor does she think you're a fool.

It's just that she's found someone who will not only tolerate her lack of a sex drive, but who will also accept her scraps while she eats a 7-course meal on a daily basis. She's sitting there eating a big steak, asking you if you'd like some, and then when you say "yes, of course, I'm starving!" she throws you a small piece of the fatty bit and tells you you have 10 seconds to eat it. Or occasionally she says "okay, later, I have to finish the other courses first", then falls asleep at the table.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

You may be right, but by guess is different. I think she *wants* an active sex life in general, but in most specific cases doesn't feel like it. That is combined with her deep seated believe that sex is not *important*. That its not really something normal couples do much. It isn't that she doesn't care about my needs, she doesn't believe in them. 

In some ways she is correct. This group aside, there really are a lot of couples with almost no sex life - and fro whom its not all that important. I'm just unfortunate in that it matters a lot to me. 

Its easy to get the impression of an unbalanced relationship but the problem really is only sex, and that has always been a problem. 

In a way this maybe is the opposite of "duty sex" which is really this thread. On thinking about it she really doesn't want to do anything like "duty sex" where its just for me - her occasional offers really are not intended to be accepted. 







alexm said:


> I fully agree with this.
> 
> It started (and still has elements of) being an LD issue for sure, however.
> 
> ...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> You may be right, but by guess is different. I think she *wants* an active sex life in general, but in most specific cases doesn't feel like it. That is combined with her deep seated believe that sex is not *important*. That its not really something normal couples do much. It isn't that she doesn't care about my needs, she doesn't believe in them.
> 
> In some ways she is correct. This group aside, there really are a lot of couples with almost no sex life - and fro whom its not all that important. I'm just unfortunate in that it matters a lot to me.
> 
> ...


I wholeheartedly disagree - as much as one can without being there, of course.

I don't think she wants a good sex life at all. I think she wants to want a good sex life (my wife would tell you the same).

The problem is, and always has been, the games she plays in regards to it. Whether she's aware of them or not is rather moot, IMO.

We tell our kids that if they say they will do something to follow through. Anyone with kids (especially pre-teens and teenagers) will know this. Ask them to do something - "Yep, I will." "When?" "Later."

And do these things get done without having to ask, then eventually tell them again? Of course not. "I forgot." "I was busy doing something else." etc. It's no excuse.

My teenager once told me he didn't want to bring a girl over to our house because the basement smelled like cat litter. (I'm usually on top of that, btw, we're not gross!). "Well then why don't you scoop the litter once in a while on your own?" "Ewww, gross!"

So he wants a clean, odourless basement, but is not willing to actually put the work in to do so. Sound familiar?

And that's what you have in your wife - a teenage mentality when it comes to sex. She WANTS it, but not nearly enough to work at it, because... "meh, too much work."

Furthermore, if you don't offer consequences to your teenager, he or she won't give a damn if this, that or the other thing gets done - there's nothing in it for him, or rather, there's no actual reason he HAS to do anything.

All in all, I think her behaviour is now just commonplace, thoughtless (literally I mean, not just towards you) and "de rigeur", so to speak. Every now and again, she gets "the talk" from you, then back to same old, same old. No consequences, no carrot on a stick, nothing.

In her world, which you've made sure is quite happy, she gets everything she needs, wants and desires regardless of whether or not you do.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

At this point my only option would be to leave. 

I don't think threatening to leave is an acceptable strategy - I don't want sex under threat. It wouldn't work anyway, things would improve for a month, then go back to the way they are now. Rinse, lather, repeat. 




alexm said:


> I wholeheartedly disagree - as much as one can without being there, of course.
> 
> I don't think she wants a good sex life at all. I think she wants to want a good sex life (my wife would tell you the same).
> 
> ...


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

alexm said:


> In her world, which you've made sure is quite happy, she gets everything she needs, wants and desires regardless of whether or not you do.


I don't have any advice for you, but I'm in the same boat. It's not worth a divorce, and not worth staying, either.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> At this point my only option would be to leave.
> 
> I don't think threatening to leave is an acceptable strategy - I don't want sex under threat. It wouldn't work anyway, things would improve for a month, then go back to the way they are now. Rinse, lather, repeat.


I'm not going to be one of those posters who says "then leave already, sheesh". But. Why wouldn't you?

I understand everything else is fine, or even great, but this one part is awful.

This is not much different than if you were married to a horrible beast of a woman, but the sex was amazing and three times a day, and you still stayed.

Look, I get it (sort of). There were times where I contemplated leaving my marriage as well. But I DO love my wife, and I love the kids (stepkids, btw) and we have a LIFE. I get that.

But even I wouldn't tolerate the things your wife says and does to you - I just wouldn't. Particularly because it's in regards to a subject that is IMPORTANT to me, and is necessary for my happiness. It's still not great - but it's not awful, either. I've taken great steps in making it to something that passes for acceptable. It's _good enough_. If it ever gets to the point that it is with your wife, I'm gone - and my wife knows this. Whether she believes me or not... I don't know. I've been adamant - yet gentle - about imparting my views on this to her.

Keep in mind, U, that my wife does actually enjoy sex when it happens. She does get pleasure out of it - great pleasure most of the time, and it's not for show. She just needs it about as much as your wife does, and has all kinds of issues surrounding the subject - same as her. I can lead my wife to water, and she WILL drink. And that's where your wife begins to differ from mine.

Would you ever consider moving out for 6 months or so? An actual separation? You'd be able to see what life is like in the "real world" - and more importantly, so would she. I actually have little doubt that you two would come back to one another, but each with a renewed interest as a whole, especially her.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This does actually relate to this thread because I don't want "duty sex" of the negative sort - eg sex that is just a chore done because its necessary. I'd much rather cheat or hire call girls. 

So I have a choice - stay and have a very limited sex life - that is very occasionally very good, but mostly non-existent or not good. Or I can leave, presumably find a great sex life with someone else, the odds of finding someone who is compatible in other ways is not that high. 

My wife does really enjoy sex on the rare occasions when she wants it. Its just those times are so infrequent, and the range of things she enjoys are very limited. 


I have of course thought about leaving. Came very close about 5 years ago - but I think she recognized how I was feeling and sex seemed to get very good for a while. In retrospect she must have been doing it just to keep me. (with is rather depressing). I can't do that again because I'd realize it was all pretend.













alexm said:


> I'm not going to be one of those posters who says "then leave already, sheesh". But. Why wouldn't you?
> 
> I understand everything else is fine, or even great, but this one part is awful.
> 
> ...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> Idk. ''Duty sex'' sounds like a chore the person is checking off of a list. I wouldn't think that would be very arousing.
> 
> *I think it would be better to get to why your wife doesn't want to have sex, in general. If you love someone, if you have chemistry, that should be part of a healthy relationship.* It seems like so many people push this part of marriage under the bed, when it really should be addressed. Just sounds like roommates to me.


 @*Deidre* I think it is very possible to love someone along with there being plenty of chemistry, but sometimes there will just be no sparks with regards to intimacy. As if romance goes through seasons. Some moments are sunny and full of playfulness, while other times are rather harsh with struggles. 

_...something something about raising teenage kids in the house..._

Eventually a relationship finds a place of healing and all the romance and lighthearted playfulness comes right back if you can just hang on for long enough without letting go!


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I have of course thought about leaving. Came very close about 5 years ago - but I think she recognized how I was feeling and sex seemed to get very good for a while. In retrospect she must have been doing it just to keep me. (with is rather depressing). I can't do that again because I'd realize it was all pretend.


I think you are entirely wrong in how you view this. I think that if you threatened to leave, the sex would get good. Not because your wife would be pretending to want the sex or to enjoy it, but because she would in fact want it and enjoy it. Because it would fulfill a very important need for her - the need to keep you around. She would be pleased with herself if you were pleased with the sex. And you would only be pleased if she showed some enthusiasm (because you would not enjoy or tolerate "duty sex".

That is why turning down duty sex is so important. You have to impart the message that they can't just "mail it in". That is an attractive quality, which will increase your wife's desire and enjoyment. You go from puppy dog to lone wolf. She will enjoy sex with the wolf more than she enjoys the puppy humping her leg. 

You are not merely changing the calculus in her mind as to whether she is willing to have sex with you. You are changing her entire view of who you are and how much she wants you.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> I think you are entirely wrong in how you view this. I think that if you threatened to leave, the sex would get good. Not because your wife would be pretending to want the sex or to enjoy it, but because she would in fact want it and enjoy it. Because it would fulfill a very important need for her - the need to keep you around. She would be pleased with herself if you were pleased with the sex. And you would only be pleased if she showed some enthusiasm (because you would not enjoy or tolerate "duty sex".
> 
> That is why turning down duty sex is so important.


That sounds reasonable. 

But ... if I understand your personal situation that's not how it's worked out? As i recall, you're not accepting duty sex, and your wife still doesn't enjoy it. Or did I miss something?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Either a couple's sexual dynamic works for them, or it doesn't.


There is a third option. It can work for_ one of the_m but _not the other._

Or in your binary world are you automatically including working for one of them in the "not working for _them_" bucket?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That sounds reasonable.
> 
> But ... if I understand your personal situation that's not how it's worked out? As i recall, you're not accepting duty sex, and your wife still doesn't enjoy it. Or did I miss something?


My wife loves me more and is more attracted to me than ever before. No, we are not having sex - because I refuse to engage with her when she offers. But she offers far more often than she did back when I was willing to accept duty sex. And she expresses an unhappiness about the lack of sex that she never did before.

I think Mrs. U does not have the PTSD from multiple rapes that prevents my wife from responding positively to sexual desire, sexual stimulation, etc. If Mrs. U developed the feelings toward U that Mrs H currently feels toward me, I believe Mrs U would very enthusiastically provide lots of high quality sex.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> My wife loves me more and is more attracted to me than ever before. No, we are not having sex - because I refuse to engage with her when she offers. But she offers far more often than she did back when I was willing to accept duty sex. And she expresses an unhappiness about the lack of sex that she never did before.


Thanks for the clarification. 
Now, that said, what's the point? It still doesn't sound like you've closed the loop, at least not in the way you described to Mr U, where you finished with "She will enjoy sex with the wolf more than she enjoys the puppy humping her leg."


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> There is a third option. It can work for_ one of the_m but _not the other._
> 
> Or in your binary world are you automatically including working for one of them in the "not working for _them_" bucket?


True, but "one of them" is a subset of the "them"! IMO, there is only one viable way for their sex life to work - for both.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

cheating and hookers were mentioned a little bit ago. 

While I am not advocating adultery or doing anything illegal or potentially hazardous, one must keep in mind that the drunk gal at the bar that just broke up with her BF would be a motivated and enthusiastic hook up and would be down for a wild roll in the hay, even if just for one night. 

And the hooker would be excited and appreciative to get the money and would be motivated to make it a good customer experience so she gets the repeat business. 

And even a lonely, frustrated HD wife who wasn't getting her needs met at home would be a motivated and enthusiastic lover. 

What the potential AP and the sex worker would both have in common over the duty sex is that they each would want something and would each have motivation and appreciation. By contrast, the duty sex provider really wants nothing and gets nothing out of it but is just doing because they feel they should and maybe the don't want to face the ramifications of what would happen if they don't. 

So in using that logic in Mr U's case, I don't think the "threat" of him leaving would actually make much difference. As long as Mrs U is in the house and getting all of the benefits of married life and a live-spouse, a threat is only going to perhaps illicit a few more episodes of duty sex to shut him up until this particular threat passes. It won't generate any actual desire or libido. 

If Mr U were to actually pack up and leave and file for divorce, that might (and I do stress, "might" ) cause a panic reaction and possibly a bout of something akin to hysterical bonding. But again, the chances of that being sustaining is dubious at best and may even cause some additional bitterness and contempt; because remember in her mind sex is not important so the fact he would leave the marriage over sex is pretty incomprehensible to her and may inflame her even more. 

What may bring about a true change in her attitude is not only him leaving her and divorcing her ---- but her actually living the life of a divorced, single woman and single mother for a few years whilst he moves on with his life and dates and possibly even enters a new, loving, high-sex LTR or even remarriage. 

It's at the point of her living in a little apartment eating ice cream and watching the umpteenth episode of House Hunters on The Home and Garden Network on a Saturday night while he is vacationing on some sunny and beachy island in the tropics with some sexy honey that she will realize that sexuality IS important. 

Or the other very possible scenario is she is a single women, meets some tall, handsome hunka-hunka and the boiler room in her libido finally does fire up and she suddenly does get a hormone surge and finally realizes what all the hooplah about sex is after all. 


Either way she will either "get it" and realize sexuality is important in a relationship. 

Or she will remain uninterested and be happy to hang out with her cats and glad not have to mess with it ; and if that is the case then Mr U will be better off without her anyway.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Has anyone ever gotten through to their 0-desire wife to get them to truly understand the importance of sex to their marriage. I don't mean that she begrudgingly gives it up to stop your whining. I don't mean that she makes an effort for a few weeks and then slides back to old habits. Rather, she has an epiphany and truly takes it to heart and participates lovingly from then on?

It seems in most cases, we're like Sisyphus pushing the boulder up the hill. There are times when we think the situation is improved, but eventually it crashes right down to the bottom and we have to start all over. And rather than try to help with a solution, it's like she makes the hill steeper and steeper as time goes on.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> So I have a choice - stay and have a very limited sex life - that is very occasionally very good, but mostly non-existent or not good. Or I can leave, presumably find a great sex life with someone else, the odds of finding someone who is compatible in other ways is not that high.
> 
> .


I understand what you are saying and in some ways you are correct. Finding someone that is a close friend and confidant', a good coparent and a good roommate is somewhat hard to find. 

But I think your perspective is off a bit. 

If you find someone that that are sexually compatible with, that finds you as hot as spewing lava and lays you like tile and sucks your spigot dry every day --- are you really going to care if she has some different political views or does not care to watch Game of Thrones with you every week?

You see, you are now gauging your marriage and your relationship with your wife based on your friendship and coparenting compatibility and your compatibility in home décor and managing the household budget. 

Yeah, ask anyone with roommate issues and they are going to agree that finding a good roommate is a challenge. 

But here's the thing, if you find someone that you find attractive, that is into you sexually and is all over you like a fat kid on a birthday cake, you really aren't going to care if she is a Rhodes Scolar or barely made it through Parkview School of Beauty. And you aren't going to care if she can't stand your choice in movies or doesn't like to swing through the Dairy Queen drive through for a marshmellow shake on your way home. 

Most people are good decent people and contributing members of society. Assuming she isn't a criminal, horrific druggie or alcoholic or some kind of puppy killer, any chick that is laying you like tile is going to be A-OK in your book. 

This can be interpreted as a good thing or a bad thing depending on which side of the aisle you find yourself on, but when you meet this person - you may always strive to have a good coparenting relationship with your wife, but it is a good bet that all these other compatibility characteristics that you think are so important now, will suddenly not mean so when you have someone else digging her nails into your back and begging for more in your ear. 

Suddenly it won't be as important to you to have her watching Game of Thrones with you anymore.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Thanks for the clarification.
> Now, that said, what's the point? It still doesn't sound like you've closed the loop, at least not in the way you described to Mr U, where you finished with "She will enjoy sex with the wolf more than she enjoys the puppy humping her leg."


Like I said, I don't think his situation and mine are exactly the same. He has said there were times in his relationship that the sex was good. That gives me the belief that if he transformed into a more desirable version of himself, Mrs U would desire and enjoy sex with him more.

I never had good or frequent sex with Mrs H. My bad for marrying her hoping it would get better over time. I did not know Mrs H was a rape victim or that the behavior I noted during sex was her dissociating. It was only years later, when she admitted during MC that she had been raped more than once, that I researched the consequences of rape to the victim and understood the mechanism. Took me additional years to realize she was unwilling to admit to the PTSD or get the help that would be required to overcome the damage. By then I was too old, tired and financially intertwined to consider divorce.

Very recently, my wife has indicated in word and deed that she wishes she could provide me with the sex she knows I crave, but then she shuts down. In the past, she would deny that my desire for sex was normal or healthy or appropriate. She would claim that her attitude toward sex was more mature and appropriate. She would deny that refusing sex was harmful to me, or would be if I were psychologically healthy. She used to put the onus on me to overcome my disability (my desire for sex). Now she admits that it is bad and wrong for her to reject me, but she can't get past that. The PTSD kicks in and she simply shuts down when she considers trying to get comfortable with having sex.

She offers to have sex the old way. Where she shuts down her mind and ignores what is happening to her body and allows me to have my way with her as long as we both keep our eyes closed. Now that I understand the dynamic, I refuse to have that kind of sex. She doesn't have any other kind of sex to offer.

I don't think Mrs. U suffers from the same internal dynamic, and I don't think she will prove unable to respond to U's changes by making the changes that he desires. I think it is worth his while to test my hypothesis. Not the divorcing. The refusal to have "duty sex". He should shut that down hard.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

badsanta said:


> @*Deidre* I think it is very possible to love someone along with there being plenty of chemistry, but sometimes there will just be no sparks with regards to intimacy. As if romance goes through seasons. Some moments are sunny and full of playfulness, while other times are rather harsh with struggles.
> 
> _...something something about raising teenage kids in the house..._
> 
> Eventually a relationship finds a place of healing and all the romance and lighthearted playfulness comes right back if you can just hang on for long enough without letting go!


You're probably right. Right now, my husband and I have zero struggles with each other, but someday, we might. I'll have to remember my mom's, grandmother's and TAM's advice. lol


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I do turn down duty sex. My wife occasionally wants sex and enjoys it when we have it. Some of those times she even goes out of her way to please me. Its just that the rate of both is very low. 

She enjoys sex when we have it. She talks about wanting more sex whenever we discuss it. She just very rarely actually wants it. There is always a specific reason we can't have sex at any particular time - its always presented as a one-time rejection. 




Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That sounds reasonable.
> 
> But ... if I understand your personal situation that's not how it's worked out? As i recall, you're not accepting duty sex, and your wife still doesn't enjoy it. Or did I miss something?


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## [email protected] (Aug 13, 2017)

My story is pretty much the same as the other men here. I have a pretty wife that keeps herself fit and well groomed. I had let myself go, gained weight, worked too much. I changed that, went on a diet, stopped drinking beer. Bought a set of kettle bells and got myself in shape. This didn't fix the problem between us but it opened options for me. Other women were paying attention to me and my wife noticed and confronted me asking if I was having an affair. My reply was " You are obviously not interested in me so why do you care". That opened a dialogue. Ya need to talk when communication breaks down then everything goes to hell. We will be celebrating our 20th anniversary this yr. The sex life still isn't great but it is good enough. I have stayed fit am a healthy and a happily married man and I never cheated..... but on that day I was prepared to call it quits......maybe that was the key.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

There is a third path. You can't really know which wife will show up on any given encounter, the one who is enjoying herself or the one who is tolerating your presence. 

Rather than assuming it will be the latter and preemptively refusing. Assume the best, do YOUR best to get her motor started. Once you are both well into things and it is plainly obvious that today is the day for the non-participatory version of her - pull out, tell her she's obviously not into it and leave the room. 

You will get a reaction. It will be a wake up call for her. This is assuming she is not Holdingontoit's wife with lot's of trauma history... 





Holdingontoit said:


> I think you are entirely wrong in how you view this. I think that if you threatened to leave, the sex would get good. Not because your wife would be pretending to want the sex or to enjoy it, but because she would in fact want it and enjoy it. Because it would fulfill a very important need for her - the need to keep you around. She would be pleased with herself if you were pleased with the sex. And you would only be pleased if she showed some enthusiasm (because you would not enjoy or tolerate "duty sex".
> 
> That is why turning down duty sex is so important. You have to impart the message that they can't just "mail it in". That is an attractive quality, which will increase your wife's desire and enjoyment. You go from puppy dog to lone wolf. She will enjoy sex with the wolf more than she enjoys the puppy humping her leg.
> 
> You are not merely changing the calculus in her mind as to whether she is willing to have sex with you. You are changing her entire view of who you are and how much she wants you.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> My story is pretty much the same as the other men here. I have a pretty wife that keeps herself fit and well groomed. I had let myself go, gained weight, worked too much. I changed that, went on a diet, stopped drinking beer. Bought a set of kettle bells and got myself in shape. This didn't fix the problem between us but it opened options for me. Other women were paying attention to me and my wife noticed and confronted me asking if I was having an affair. My reply was " You are obviously not interested in me so why do you care". That opened a dialogue. Ya need to talk when communication breaks down then everything goes to hell. We will be celebrating our 20th anniversary this yr. The sex life still isn't great but it is good enough. I have stayed fit am a healthy and a happily married man and I never cheated..... but on that day I was prepared to call it quits......maybe that was the key.


Thanks for sharing that. I can imagine a scenario where you may have tried to address issues in many other ways and it would have probably never even helped. 

The dynamics of this situation are that of gaining control and helping your relationship by the act of not caring about it. It seems like such an awkward paradox, but in life all the power goes to the person that does not care. The question then becomes if you choose to use that power to build your relationship into something stronger or use that power to destroy it. 

Otherwise in life if we care too much about loosing someone, you can actually become completely powerless to actually do anything to help yourself when a problem occurs in favor of sacrificing everything for your partner. This powerlessness and helplessness usually will serve to destroy the best of relationships because of the high chance of loosing yourself. No one can love someone that has been completely lost to themselves in order to stay in a relationship. 

That may not make much sense to many people, but some will get it. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think it may be simple. Sort of like the traditional woman who wants to be ravished by a man who will do whatever he wants with her - but what she really wants is for him to do what *she* wants. 

I expect my wife asks, with the hope / expectation that I will ask for one of the very limited set of things she likes to do. She may even have a point, if she has turned me down for something multiple times (even if she has said she is happy to do it next time), maybe its on me for asking again.

Normally I'd say that I'd never ask for things she never wants but even that is suddenly fuzzy since she has started doing things (without my asking) that she formerly said she never wanted to do. 


It could be manipulation, but I think it may just be a very confused attitude about sex and her own desires / interests. 







alexm said:


> snip
> U, you have to ask yourself - why would she ask what you want, or offer something, then literally take it away immediately like that? Or attach conditions to it? ("as long as you're quick" etc).
> 
> That's not the mark of someone who _actually_ cares about your needs. You're mistaking it for that, though, as is she, I suspect.
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm not aware of Mrs U having been abused in the past, though I think she was indoctrinated by a mother with rather Victorian ideas about sex. 






Holdingontoit said:


> My wife loves me more and is more attracted to me than ever before. No, we are not having sex - because I refuse to engage with her when she offers. But she offers far more often than she did back when I was willing to accept duty sex. And she expresses an unhappiness about the lack of sex that she never did before.
> 
> I think Mrs. U does not have the PTSD from multiple rapes that prevents my wife from responding positively to sexual desire, sexual stimulation, etc. If Mrs. U developed the feelings toward U that Mrs H currently feels toward me, I believe Mrs U would very enthusiastically provide lots of high quality sex.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There are no practical issues holding us together - we would each be just find on our own that way. 

Its possible she would find someone she is attracted to, but I don't think so. Or more specifically she is "attracted" to me and to men who look like me (I am a handsome devil btw), but its just that the interest isn't sexual - toward me or toward anyone. No, even that isn't really right she is sexually attracted to me - just very rarely.

She initiates sex, gets aroused by touching me, greatly enjoys herself when we have sex. Its just that for her this is something that happens every few weeks unless we are busy, and which involves a very limited set of activities. 




oldshirt said:


> cheating and hookers were mentioned a little bit ago.
> 
> While I am not advocating adultery or doing anything illegal or potentially hazardous, one must keep in mind that the drunk gal at the bar that just broke up with her BF would be a motivated and enthusiastic hook up and would be down for a wild roll in the hay, even if just for one night.
> 
> ...


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> .....What may bring about a true change in her attitude is not only him leaving her and divorcing her ---- but her actually living the life of a divorced, single woman and single mother for a few years whilst he moves on with his life and dates and possibly even enters a new, loving, high-sex LTR or even remarriage.
> 
> It's at the point of her living in a little apartment eating ice cream and watching the umpteenth episode of House Hunters on The Home and Garden Network on a Saturday night while he is vacationing on some sunny and beachy island in the tropics with some sexy honey that she will realize that sexuality IS important.
> 
> ...


I vote for the cat option. When I was close to divorcing my wife due to her refusing to have sex ever again, I insisted we go to a sex therapist. During one of the sessions, the topic came up what would she do if my W and I divorced? Would she ever want to have sex again. My wife said that at times she felt like a sexual failure because she had a low level of desire compared to all the images in the mediate around her. She said she envisioned a life of a spinster living along and every now and then going out to dinner or a movie with girlfriends.

In the case of my W, only she could change herself and her sexual desire. I could support and reinforce her changes, but it was all up to her. You really can't change your partner. At best you can lead by example and show them that change is possible, you can change the way to treat them, in the hope that it will force them to respond differently, but it is still their choice on how they want to respond to the new you. You can support any changes they make and reinforce them, but your partner is still the one that has to want to change.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> I vote for the cat option. When I was close to divorcing my wife due to her refusing to have sex ever again, I insisted we go to a sex therapist. During one of the sessions, the topic came up what would she do if my W and I divorced? Would she ever want to have sex again. My wife said that at times she felt like a sexual failure because she had a low level of desire compared to all the images in the mediate around her. She said she envisioned a life of a spinster living along and every now and then going out to dinner or a movie with girlfriends.
> 
> In the case of my W, only she could change herself and her sexual desire. I could support and reinforce her changes, but it was all up to her. You really can't change your partner. At best you can lead by example and show them that change is possible, you can change the way to treat them, in the hope that it will force them to respond differently, but it is still their choice on how they want to respond to the new you. You can support any changes they make and reinforce them, but your partner is still the one that has to want to change.



I dunno.

Attraction and desire and sex drive are not choices.

If someone trips your trigger, they trip your trigger. If they don't do it for ya, they don't do it for ya.

If someone has some kind of medical condition or on some kind of medication that knocks out a pre-existing libido, they can choose to have it treated or not, but people really can't choose to be horny and they can't choose to be attracted to someone they are not.

Neither can someone choose not to be attracted to who does turn them on. They can choose to not actually have sex with them if it would be inappropriate, but you can't will yourself to feel or not feel attraction and desire.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> They can choose to not actually have sex with them if it would be inappropriate, but you can't will yourself to feel or not feel attraction and desire.


That's bull. One most certainly can will one's self out of an inappropriate desire. And why wouldn't you. Better to eliminate the desire than to allow it to torture you whenever that person is around or, worse yet, give in to it. It takes some serious self awareness and self control over one's mind and ones thoughts, but there's a big difference between difficult and impossible. Just because most don't or don't know how, doesn't mean it can't be done. 

Of all the foul, harmful, dirty four letter words out there, "can't" is the worst of them.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

wilson said:


> Has anyone ever gotten through to their 0-desire wife to get them to truly understand the importance of sex to their marriage. I don't mean that she begrudgingly gives it up to stop your whining. I don't mean that she makes an effort for a few weeks and then slides back to old habits. Rather, she has an epiphany and truly takes it to heart and participates lovingly from then on?
> 
> It seems in most cases, we're like Sisyphus pushing the boulder up the hill. There are times when we think the situation is improved, but eventually it crashes right down to the bottom and we have to start all over. And rather than try to help with a solution, it's like she makes the hill steeper and steeper as time goes on.


In my situation, I was in a sex starved marriage, my wife and I were not having sex at all and didn't for many many months. Our 40-year marriage had deteriorated slowly and then more quickly. We didn't realize that we had each pushed each other away emotionally. 

I decided to change myself and read just about every relationship book I could find. I finally figured out what the problem was in our relationship and it wasn't just a lack of sex. My wife is LD, but turned into No-D and it was partially my fault. Per, Chapman's 5 LL, she is quality time and acts of service. I was giving her neither, because when I did she would complain and lecture me. My LL's were touch and words of affirmation. Her complaints were the opposite of praise and emotionally felt like she was expressing hate to me. 

I started to do things (acts of service & quality time) that made her feel loved and cherished again. She liked it but was confused by it and didn't know how to respond. At times she would feel emotional attachment and "love" toward me, but then pick a fight with me (more anti-praise) to gain emotional distance. She also used sex and the lack of sex as an emotional weapon.

I decided that I deserved better, much better. So I did the MW Davis (Sex Starved Marriage) and Glover (NMMNG) Get a Life transformation. I decided that I was going to fix myself and be in a loving sexual relationship by a certain birthday and while I hoped that relationship would be with my wife, I would divorce her and find someone else if not. I insisted we see a Sex Therapist. 

During Sex Therapy my wife learned of my promise to myself and that she had a few months before I was going to divorce her so things would be finalized in time for my deadline to myself. That was a "deer in the head lights moment for her." The Sex Therapist asked me to describe what I felt a loving sexual relationship with a woman would be like in our next session. The next week, I told the Sex Therapist that I felt that sex three times a week with hugging and touching other days would make me happy for the rest of my life. The ST asked why I didn't want sex three times a day? I explained. The ST asked me a lot more about what it would take for me to be a happy husband. I explained that for me sex was not really about orgasms, but was about feeling emotionally connected and bonded to my wife. Sex makes me feel emotionally close to my wife.

The ST asked my wife, if every in our marriage, she had sex with me three times a week. My wife said yes. The ST then said that my wife was capable of making me happy, if she wanted to. She told my wife that it would be up to her to either start having sex three times a week with her husband or that she would be divorced and have no one to blame but herself.

In a later session my wife explained how 3 times a week was just too much for her and begged and promised to have sex with me twice a week. The ST helped negotiate this and I agreed. 

Months later, my wife asked if I would have really divorced her over something a trivial as sex. I told her yes, and to me it wasn't trivial. She has tried very hard to have sex with me twice a week. Sometimes she back slides, but then redoubles her efforts. She gets it now that sex is very important to me and if she wants to remain married to me it is up to her.

So yes, some wives can have a moment of understanding on the importance of sex. 

It doesn't (at least in the case of my wife) change her sex drive. My wife would still prefer sex once a week to twice every three weeks. However, my wife now understands how important sex is to our marriage. 

When work stresses her out, or she gets tired or lazy, she will backslide, it is something that she will probably have to "work" at the rest of her life. In our relationship she is the one who almost always initiates now. I work hard to be a good caring lover and bring her to orgasm maybe three times out of every 4 times we make love. The other times, she tells me (and I believe her) that she wants to pleasure me so that we feel close. 

Every once in a while if we haven't been having sex twice a week, I will ask her (as a concerned husband), if there is some problem that is interfering with her ability to be sexual with me. I ask if it is some stress at work, some medical issue, etc.

As a former Nice Guy who is no more, I would never whine for sex, mope or act sexually needy. I am not codependent upon my wife. I will express concern about any things in her life that might be bothering her, but she will either preserve or destroy our marriage in the sex department. I will continue to do the things I have learned to make her feel loved and cherished each day (acts of service and quality time) as my duties to preserve our marriage.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

uhtred said:


> I do turn down duty sex. My wife occasionally wants sex and enjoys it when we have it. Some of those times she even goes out of her way to please me. Its just that the rate of both is very low.
> 
> She enjoys sex when we have it. She talks about wanting more sex whenever we discuss it. She just very rarely actually wants it. There is always a specific reason we can't have sex at any particular time - its always presented as a one-time rejection.


Maybe she's just very reactive only drive. Lots of women don't get an urge but with the right approach can enjoy. 
I'm sure you've tried several methods of approaching for sex, is there any that seem to work better than others? 

Since you're in a place where you might as well try anything cause nothing can make it much worse...

Maybe try being a little more commanding and dirty. Wake her up with a huge kiss and tell her you're going to F her tonight. Go to work, text her that you can't wait to feel her ...... (fill in the blanks with dirty talk lol) come home and give a good kiss. A hand on the back of the neck, pressing your whole body against her kiss and tell her you've been looking forward to it all day. Tell her how hard you've been thinking of her all day and how sexy she looks. 

She'll have her mind on sex all day long and by the time you hit the bedroom she just may be ready. 

Some women just can't have it pop in their head and need a lot of time to get their head into the mood.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That's bull. One most certainly can will one's self out of an inappropriate desire.  And why wouldn't you. Better to eliminate the desire than to allow it to torture you whenever that person is around or, worse yet, give in to it. It takes some serious self awareness and self control over one's mind and ones thoughts, but there's a big difference between difficult and impossible. Just because most don't or don't know how, doesn't mean it can't be done.
> 
> Of all the foul, harmful, dirty four letter words out there, "can't" is the worst of them.


Feelings come and go throughout the day and over time.

One can choose to not be around someone and one can choose to not place themselves in situations where things can develop and progress into inappropriate situations. 

If one avoids those situations enough, eventually those feelings will fade. 

On that note I will agree with you. 

But the actual feelings of attraction and desire, or lack thereof, just occur and come and go on their own.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> In my situation, I was in a sex starved marriage, my wife and I were not having sex at all and didn't for many many months. Our 40-year marriage had deteriorated slowly and then more quickly. We didn't realize that we had each pushed each other away emotionally.
> 
> I decided to change myself and read just about every relationship book I could find. I finally figured out what the problem was in our relationship and it wasn't just a lack of sex. My wife is LD, but turned into No-D and it was partially my fault. Per, Chapman's 5 LL, she is quality time and acts of service. I was giving her neither, because when I did she would complain and lecture me. My LL's were touch and words of affirmation. Her complaints were the opposite of praise and emotionally felt like she was expressing hate to me.
> 
> ...


The "ah hah!" Moment for my wife in counseling was when I said that an active sex life For me was important enough that it would be worth it to me to divorce, split our marital assets and share custody of our children. I was willing to pay that price and make that sacrifice.

I then asked her if celibacy was worth all that to her.

You could have heard a pin drop as the counselor looked at her waiting for her answer.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> The "ah hah!" Moment for my wife in counseling was when I said that an active sex life For me was important enough that it would be worth it to me to divorce, split our marital assets and share custody of our children. I was willing to pay that price and make that sacrifice.
> 
> I then asked her if celibacy was worth all that to her.
> 
> You could have heard a pin drop as the counselor looked at her waiting for her answer.


You probably should have not asked her the worth of celibacy, and let the counselor handle the rest.

So, since the post I responded to brought up the myth of Sisyphus continually rolling the rock uphill; has your wife ever back-slid from her understanding of how important sex is to you? If so, what advice do you have for how to handle it?

Marriage counseling is very important for marriages in crisis. Lack of sex will put a marriage in crisis, even if other things are the root cause of the problems.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> You probably should have not asked her the worth of celibacy, and let the counselor handle the rest.
> 
> So, since the post I responded to brought up the myth of Sisyphus continually rolling the rock uphill; has your wife ever back-slid from her understanding of how important sex is to you? If so, what advice do you have for how to handle it?
> 
> Marriage counseling is very important for marriages in crisis. Lack of sex will put a marriage in crisis, even if other things are the root cause of the problems.


I saw it as a legitimate question. If it was worth divorce to not have a sex life, then why should we waste the time, energy and money in MC to save a marriage?? 

I am not one of those people that feels that divorce must be avoided at all costs or that divorce is the epitome of personal failure and shame. Divorce does have a place and does serve a valuable purpose in this world and do/did not fear it. If a life of celibacy was worth the cost of divorce, then divorce would be the appropriate solution for both of us. 

As far as backsliding, it's not that simple. She is a menopausal woman that turns 50 in a few weeks. She will never be the 25 year old sexpot that I started dating years ago. And I am not the man I was even 5 years ago when we were in the MC session I mentioned. 

She may not be horny and wanting to jump my bones very often these days and may only show an interest every 2-3 weeks. However if I were to ask nicely, she most likely would not reject me. It just wouldn't be very good and would lack any kind of enthusiasm or spiritedness. So I really don't pursue it or initiate it very often. 

So is she hot and horny sexpot leaving snail tracks to jump my bones? No, not at all.

But does she realize that marital sexuality is important to me and that if she rejects me chronically for nor reason other than she doesn't feel like it at the moment that I will move on? Yes. 

Do I consider that "backsliding?" No I don't.

I think we are busy, 50somethings dealing with menopause and probably some manopause and that a marriage with hugs, kisses, handholding and cuddles along with some occasional episodes of moderate a few times a month and some occasional good sex a few times a year is probably how it is going to be. 

Neither of us are the sexual dynamos that we used to be. I don't fault her for that or think that she is doing anything wrong per se. We just aren't spring chickens any more.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Feelings come and go throughout the day and over time.
> 
> One can choose to not be around someone and one can choose to not place themselves in situations where things can develop and progress into inappropriate situations.
> 
> ...


On a couple occasions, I have had unavoidable requirements to be around women who got my heart rate up. Simply removing myself until feelings faded was not an option. I had to _make _the feelings disappear, which I did. It made maintaining a professional relationship much easier, not to mention the absolute requirement it was for giving proper honor and respect to my wife and the covenant we made together.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> She may not be horny and wanting to jump my bones very often these days and may only show an interest every 2-3 weeks. However if I were to ask nicely, she most likely would not reject me. It just wouldn't be very good and would lack any kind of enthusiasm or spiritedness. So I really don't pursue it or initiate it very often.
> 
> ...
> 
> But does she realize that marital sexuality is important to me and that if she rejects me chronically for nor reason other than she doesn't feel like it at the moment that I will move on? Yes.


I'm not clear on this. Since she is only horny and wants to jump your bones once every 2-3 weeks, is that how often you have sex?

If not and you have sex more than that, I'm guessing that you don't initiate very often?

If the sex is more than once every 2-3 weeks and you're not initiating, then she's initiating more, right? 

How's her initiating when she's not horny different from her not rejecting you when you initiate?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think some people rarely feel sexual attraction - to pretty much anyone. So there may not be anyone who "trips their trigger". 






oldshirt said:


> I dunno.
> 
> Attraction and desire and sex drive are not choices.
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I can also see my wife asking if I would *really* divorce over something as trivial as sex, and trying to negotiate 3 vs 2 times / week. 

What is your plan if the 2X/week, starts to slowly slip. Good reasons - maybe she is sick or something one week, but gradually declines. 

That is what has happened to me the 3 times I've discussed it with my wife. She has agreed, sex has gotten good for a little while, then gradually declined. 





Young at Heart said:


> snip
> The ST asked my wife, if every in our marriage, she had sex with me three times a week. My wife said yes. The ST then said that my wife was capable of making me happy, if she wanted to. She told my wife that it would be up to her to either start having sex three times a week with her husband or that she would be divorced and have no one to blame but herself.
> 
> In a later session my wife explained how 3 times a week was just too much for her and begged and promised to have sex with me twice a week. The ST helped negotiate this and I agreed.
> ...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I can also see my wife asking if I would *really* divorce over something as trivial as sex,


That's the core disconnect right there. If one thinks sex is "trivial" and the other doesn't, there's gonna' be trouble.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> That is what has happened to me the 3 times I've discussed it with my wife. She has agreed, sex has gotten good for a little while, then gradually declined.


She thought that sex was very important to you, so she made an effort to please you.

Then, for one reason or another, sex declined for a couple of weeks. So, she realized that, since you didn't mention it, sex *really wasn't that important to you* and it must have just been a phase you were in at the time. 

I don't know why she would have thought anything else.

This is kind of like your spouse mentioning to you in March what she'd really like for Christmas. She never mentions it again. You forget or decide, since she never mentioned it again, that it really wasn't that important to her. So, she's mad when she doesn't get the gift she wanted. It shows that you don't really love her.

Meanwhile, if you'd had any idea how much it truly mattered to her, you would have done whatever it took to get it for her.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I can also see my wife asking if I would *really* divorce over something as trivial as sex


Saying that it is something you'd divorce over is how you convince her that it's not trivial.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm not clear on this. Since she is only horny and wants to jump your bones once every 2-3 weeks, is that how often you have sex?
> 
> If not and you have sex more than that, I'm guessing that you don't initiate very often?
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I understand it enough myself to explain it any better.

"Horny" is probably not the right word for me to be using because I'm not sure she really gets horny any more.

Maybe a better way to put it is every 2-3 weeks, she does want some kind of physical attention even if it is just a "hand" if you know what I mean. 

She used to be very multi orgasmic and now she is "one and done" and when she is done, she is done.
And a 5-10 minute quickie is all she ever has the capacity for anymore. 

Her initiations are rarely a hard initiation but usually a very soft suggestion or even just a cuddle up to me in the morning. 

If I were to initiate without her suggestion or cuddles first, I know that even if she were to try to appease me, it would be very uninspired and often downright awkward and frustrating.

It would be "Duty Sex."

If I asked nicely and as long as she had virtually nothing else in the world going on, she wouldn't reject me per se. But it would be so bad and so awkward and unsatisfying for both of us that it just Wouldn't be worth it.

So I very rarely initiate on my own any more. It just isn't worth it and it ends up creating more emotional distance and resentment rather than closeness and bonding.

We probably average a couple of mutual oral or manual encounters a month and maybe one or two PIV encounters a month.

If I wait until she shows some kind of green light, they are usually ok.

But if I initiate them without getting some kind of green light first, it's almost always very disappointing if not downright frustrating.

Hope that helps a little. It's hard for me to describe and I'm still trying to figure it all out myself.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> Saying that it is something you'd divorce over is how you convince her that it's not trivial.


And by asking that, she is showing how trivial she thinks it is. 

If you sincerely would divorce over it, I think you need to be open and upfront about it.

This is really no different than someone saying, "you wouldn't really divorce me over something as trivial as having sex with all these other people without your knowledge or permission would you??"

You wouldn't have an issue being upfront about infidelity as a deal breaker or accept it as something trivial would you? 

So why not be open and honest about this being a deal breaker?

...... Unless of course it really isn't a deal breaker for you.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> On a couple occasions, I have had unavoidable requirements to be around women who got my heart rate up. Simply removing myself until feelings faded was not an option. I had to _make _the feelings disappear, which I did. It made maintaining a professional relationship much easier, not to mention the absolute requirement it was for giving proper honor and respect to my wife and the covenant we made together.


I think we are just going to have to disagree on the semantics of that.

I don't see that as you willing your feelings away.

I see that as you simply behaving appropriately until your heart stopped going pitter pat. 

We all encounter attractive people that get our motor running every day and we can't do them all.

No offense but I just see that as proper and expected behavior and not some great feat of willpower or mind over mind. 

We can't help our feelings, they just show up and times and then then often simply fade away as well.

What we are actually controlling are our actions and behaviors. And our actions and behaviors will also influence and effect our feelings in a big feedback loop. 

This is what separates us from the animals.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Meanwhile, if you'd had any idea how much it truly mattered to her, you would have done whatever it took to get it for her.


1. If you loved her.
2. If it was at least remotely achievable. 

I could work very hard this year and earn slightly more money. If what my wife wanted was a trip to Europe or a piece of jewelry that costs a few thousand dollars, I can make that happen. If my wife wanted a brand new Rolls Royce, maybe I get cute and rent one for the weekend and drive her to a fancy hotel in it and we go to a winery and sip champagne in our Rolls Royce. But if she won't be happy unless I buy her the Rolls Royce, then she will unfortunately be disappointed because that I cannot afford.

My wife can provide starfish sex once every week or two. With occasional months off. If that is enough for me, then now that she knows how much it means to me, she will provide it. If I want passion or sex more than once a week, then I am going to be disappointed no matter how much she loves me. Because she doesn't have that on offer. At least not for me.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I think we are just going to have to disagree on the semantics of that.
> 
> I don't see that as you willing your feelings away.
> 
> ...


Oh how funny you think you know my feelings and how I manage them, better than I do myself! I defy anyone to prove I can't control my feelings beyond just altering the behavior that may arise from those feelings. 

If the feelings were beyond our control, merely "behaving appropriately" wouldn't make them go away. And even if it could, it would likely take some time; more time than I'm willing to put up with. Better to take control of those feelings right from the get-go and not suffer the stress of them any longer than necessary.

Not only the ability to choose our actions, but the self awareness to control our emotions also separates us from the animals. 

But as you say, the whether cart or horse, chicken or egg, best behavior will result in the right end result, so it's all good.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I think some people rarely feel sexual attraction - to pretty much anyone. So there may not be anyone who "trips their trigger".


I may talk rough and gruff a lot here on the forums, but deep down I am a big softy and a hopeless romantic.

I simply do not believe that there are people that won't fall for someone. I believe there is someone for everyone and that everyone can have their attraction and desire switches flipped on by someone.

Now it is obviously true that some people have a much smaller strike zone than others.

And some out there may have teeny tiny strive zones.

But I think everyone barring some kind of medical, psychological or hormonal problem has a sex drive and has their own sexual launch sequence.

And that is why I don't not support these people in sexless marriages for years just sucking it up and enduring it for the sake of not being a divorce statistic.

All it is doing is keeping two people from finding the right person for them.

(Now I am talking about people who have chronic, long term (years) problems of severe lack of sexual and affectionate dysfunction and not talking about people who are just bored or not having wild, monkey sex from the chandeliers every night like they would prefer)


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> I may talk rough and gruff a lot here on the forums, but deep down I am a big softy and a hopeless romantic.
> 
> I simply do not believe that there are people that won't fall for someone. I believe there is someone for everyone and that everyone can have their attraction and desire switches flipped on by someone.
> 
> ...


It is called motherhood for many women.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> 1. If you loved her.
> 2. If it was at least remotely achievable.
> 
> I could work very hard this year and earn slightly more money. If what my wife wanted was a trip to Europe or a piece of jewelry that costs a few thousand dollars, I can make that happen. If my wife wanted a brand new Rolls Royce, maybe I get cute and rent one for the weekend and drive her to a fancy hotel in it and we go to a winery and sip champagne in our Rolls Royce. But if she won't be happy unless I buy her the Rolls Royce, then she will unfortunately be disappointed because that I cannot afford.
> ...


I had to back and make sure I wasn't responding to you with that.

I'm a fan of yours and wouldn't criticize!

The point I was trying to make to @ultred was that I don't think he's done what's required to make sure that his wife truly understands what he needs / wants. 

Usually, people who love you will do their best to make you happy as long as you have the courage to let them know what you need / require.

I'll accept that, in your case, the sex you want is not something that your wife can give you, for whatever dark reasons (and those dark reasons don't excuse her from failing to address her issues at such a high cost to you).

Edit: At least you're having the limited satisfaction of your wife acknowledging that she was at fault. I'd love to see @Ultred get that far with his wife.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> The "ah hah!" Moment for my wife in counseling was when I said that an active sex life For me was important enough that it would be worth it to me to divorce, split our marital assets and share custody of our children. I was willing to pay that price and make that sacrifice.
> 
> I then asked her if celibacy was worth all that to her.
> 
> You could have heard a pin drop as the counselor looked at her waiting for her answer.


I need to clarify something about this. 

When this happened in counseling, this did not turn my wife around and it certainly did not make her start to desire me or make her horny by any means. In fact that was probably when she hated me the most and was the most disgusted with me in our marriage. 

The counselor basically got in her face and told her that my needs were real and just as valid as hers and that if she didn't wake up and take it seriously that she would find herself as a divorced single mother. 

She was livid and disgusted with both me and the counselor. 

But what it did do when the anger finally subsided was brought her to the negotiating table when she realized that I was serious and that I was willing to drop the bomb. After some soul searching, she did realize that having a sexless marriage was not worth the cost of divorce to her. That brought her back to the negotiation table and she finally opened up and started describing what she needed in order to feel close and safe and appreciated by me and what she needed to feel sexual with me. 

There were obviously things that I needed to change and things I needed to do much differently. But there were things that took having her spell out for me and get me to understand before it got through my thick skull. But she worse than any guy as far as talking about her feelings and her needs so it really did take realizing that we were headed for divorce and her being a single mother before she saw the writing on the wall and snapped out of her fog. 

I think she honestly and sincerely believed that I would be willing live a sexless marriage until the kids were out of the house and that I would be ok being ignored and being number 428 on her priority list after picking the blades of grass out of the cracks in the sidewalk and after organizing glasses in the cupboards according to height. It took realizing I was willing to walk and assessing the cost to her that brought her back to MC and got her to discuss her needs so that I could do a better job meeting her needs as well as her taking mine at least somewhat seriously. 

This was a long process that took the better part of a year just to get to a stable point where neither of us had at least one foot out the door. 

The kids were little when this happened and neither of us actually wanted to divorce deep down. Now that the kids are teens, we each know that neither of us will work this hard again if we reach that point again.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> The point I was trying to make to @ultred was that I don't think he's done what's required to make sure that his wife truly understands what he needs / wants.
> 
> Usually, people who love you will do their best to make you happy as long as you have the courage to let them know what you need / require.


I am not as optimistic as you are about that.

I totally agree that the opposite is quite true. If you DON'T tell them what you need, or how badly you need it, then there is a very good chance they won't give it to you. From ignorance, not malice or lack of love. And the fault / blame there is almost entirely on the person who does not have the courage to speak up and be honest about their needs.

But I think there are many cases where people love you and know what you want but don't provide it. Maybe they don't think the need is legitimate. Maybe they think they are not capable of providing it and they hate / fear failure so they refuse to try.

Lots of couples divorce precisely because their partner refuses to meet an important need after it has been clearly communicated. And in many cases they love each other. They simply realize they are not compatible.

Some of us are too thick-headed to figure that out soon enough to be comfortable divorcing once we realize the ugly truth.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

holdingontoit said:


> But I think there are many cases where people love you and know what you want but don't provide it. Maybe they don't think the need is legitimate. Maybe they think they are not capable of providing it and they hate / fear failure so they refuse to try.



This is exactly true for me and my W. She is aware of my desires for sex but she doesn't see it as "important". What's "important" to her is the 2.4 kids, and the white picket fence which provides security. These are her "needs" and the ones that are "legitimate" to her. Those are the reason she chose to marry me rather than someone she was sexually attracted to. I'm a "settle", because she couldn't find someone she was attracted to who also had the "qualities".



holdingontoit said:


> They simply realize they are not compatible.
> 
> Some of us are too thick-headed to figure that out soon enough to be comfortable divorcing once we realize the ugly truth.


In my W's eyes, I am perfectly "compatible", because sex isn't "important". At least, not as important as the security things.
But, for me, I couldn't give a carpenter's damn about security. I want the significance of being admired and desired by my wife.

And, the truth is some of us are ugly. It wouldn't make any difference if we divorce, it would only cost money and make our life harder. Because we aren't going to find anyone else who does desire to have sex with us.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> I am not as optimistic as you are about that.
> 
> I totally agree that the opposite is quite true. If you DON'T tell them what you need, or how badly you need it, then there is a very good chance they won't give it to you. From ignorance, not malice or lack of love. And the fault / blame there is almost entirely on the person who does not have the courage to speak up and be honest about their needs.
> 
> ...


When I say "Usually, people who love you will do their best to make you happy as long as you have the courage to let them know what you need / require." I take that to mean that, if they don't do their best to give you what you want, then they don't truly love you. They may feel something for you that they call "love", but I'm not buying that it's truly love.

Although I do acknowledge that their may be circumstances where one loves you and simply can't provide what you need (i.e. if my wife could only be sexually satisfied by pegging me, she'd be out of luck). But I don't think most marital issues rise to this level.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

TJW said:


> This is exactly true for me and my W. She is aware of my desires for sex but she doesn't see it as "important". What's "important" to her is the 2.4 kids, and the white picket fence which provides security. These are her "needs" and the ones that are "legitimate" to her. Those are the reason she chose to marry me rather than someone she was sexually attracted to. I'm a "settle", because she couldn't find someone she was attracted to who also had the "qualities".


Security is important to her. If you made it clear that she will only get the things she values if you get what you value as well, your needs will be important to her.

If she realizes, which she no doubt does, that she can still have her needs met while ignoring yours, then that's what will happen.



TJW said:


> And, the truth is some of us are ugly. It wouldn't make any difference if we divorce, it would only cost money and make our life harder. Because we aren't going to find anyone else who does desire to have sex with us.


Although you're probably a bit too negative regarding your ability to meet women, this is something that many commenters fail to note. Many (most?) people don't really have that many choices when it comes to life partners, so it's not just a matter of trading in the current SO for the next. The choices may be between reducing the relationship imbalance by giving up sex or being alone (both of which can be better options than staying in a sexless marriage).


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## tamhubby (Aug 24, 2017)

One of my favourite movies is The Matrix. In it, there's a scene where Joe Pantoliano's character asks to have his memory wiped and be put back into the Matrix, where he knows things aren't real but where he can live in blissful ignorance and simply enjoy the fact that his fake steak tastes great in his mind. I get the impression that many of us HD folks are making this choice in our marriage.

Duty sex, for me, is the reminder that my marriage is not what it ought to be. Telling myself that everything else in my marriage is good and that I should be grateful for the positives, feels a little like Joe Pantaliano choosing to ignore an imperfect but authentic world in favour of one that is comfortable but largely unfulfilling.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

tamhubby said:


> Duty sex, for me, is the reminder that my marriage is not what it ought to be. Telling myself that everything else in my marriage is good and that I should be grateful for the positives, feels a little like Joe Pantaliano choosing to ignore an imperfect but authentic world in favour of one that is comfortable but largely unfulfilling.


Another way to look at Duty sex is like receiving a Christmas gift from someone that does not really know what to buy you but thinks they found you just the perfect thing:










You are correct, some folks would go through the trouble to set everything up, imagine as if playing a real xbox and never complain.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Another way to look at Duty sex is like receiving a Christmas gift from someone that does not really know what to buy you but thinks they found you just the perfect thing:
> 
> You are correct, some folks would go through the trouble to set everything up, imagine as if playing a real xbox and never complain.


But you have to take into consideration the motivation of the person offering it. Even with Christmas presents, intentions matter. If they pick some random thing because they feel obligated to get you a gift, it shows they don't care. But if they give you a well-intentioned "PX-3600" game system because they know you like games, it shows they care and are making an effort to meet your needs. It's true that a PX-3600 is not a PlayStation, so they didn't 100% meet your needs, but they made a genuine effort.

The truth is you'll never be 100% satisfied with anything in marriage. There's always compromises. The only way to bet 100% satisfied with sex is to have a relationship where sex is all that matters. If you don't have to worry about getting along with her relatives, dealing with finances, chores, etc., it's much easier to find someone who will 100% match your sex drive. 

So in terms of duty sex in marriage, her intentions matter. If she's genuinely trying because she wants to make you happy, that's worth trying to save. But if she's just doing it because it's more of a hassle not to, that's probably a marriage not worth saving. If she's not interested in your feelings about that, there's likely a lot else wrong with the marriage and it likely won't last anyway.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

wilson said:


> But you have to take into consideration the motivation of the person offering it. Even with Christmas presents, intentions matter. If they pick some random thing because they feel obligated to get you a gift, it shows they don't care. But if they give you a well-intentioned "PX-3600" game system because they know you like games, it shows they care and are making an effort to meet your needs. It's true that a PX-3600 is not a PlayStation, so they didn't 100% meet your needs, but they made a genuine effort.


I was going to get to a similar point when the OP responded, but you completely missed it. Yes intentions matter, but most importantly one would have to ask themselves, "why is it so difficult for someone to know how to get me a great gift?" 

Think of someone in your family that is really important and that you would really want to get them a great gift, but just have no idea what they would even like. Why is that? Why would someone important in your family be so difficult to know what it is that would make them happy?

I'm that person in my family. No one knows what to get me for Christmas. I end up with gifts that should be super cool from that lame gift store in the mall... OMG seriously why would any person really want a rechargeable football that contains a bluetooth speaker that you can throw...


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## tamhubby (Aug 24, 2017)

wilson said:


> But you have to take into consideration the motivation of the person offering it.


Yes, intent is important, but let's take the analogy further. Say you recognize the intent and you express your genuine gratitude, but after a few more crappy but well-intentioned gifts you point out that they weren't quite what you wanted, and you carefully point out the real x-box and where she can buy it. For the next three Christmases and Birthdays she continues to get you crappy, Chinese-import rip-offs of the real thing. You're going to start wondering if she even cares, realize that she's only getting you a gift because it's expected of her, and you'll start to think you'd rather not receive anything at all.


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## tamhubby (Aug 24, 2017)

tamhubby said:


> Yes, intent is important, but let's take the analogy further. Say you recognize the intent and you express your genuine gratitude, but after a few more crappy but well-intentioned gifts you point out that they weren't quite what you wanted, and you carefully point out the real x-box and where she can buy it. For the next three Christmases and Birthdays she continues to get you crappy, Chinese-import rip-offs of the real thing. You're going to start wondering if she even cares, realize that she's only getting you a gift because it's expected of her, and you'll start to think you'd rather not receive anything at all.


And what's worse, you're likely paying for it all


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## [email protected] (Aug 13, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That's the core disconnect right there. If one thinks sex is "trivial" and the other doesn't, there's gonna' be trouble.



A relationship without sex is a friendship and not a marriage. Since she feels that sex is trivial, ask how she would feel about you satisfying that "need" with someone else. I said ask don't threaten unless you are prepared to leave which having sex with someone else may eventually lead to.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

tamhubby said:


> Yes, intent is important, but let's take the analogy further. Say you recognize the intent and you express your genuine gratitude, but after a few more crappy but well-intentioned gifts you point out that they weren't quite what you wanted, and you carefully point out the real x-box and where she can buy it. For the next three Christmases and Birthdays she continues to get you crappy, Chinese-import rip-offs of the real thing. You're going to start wondering if she even cares, realize that she's only getting you a gift because it's expected of her, and you'll start to think you'd rather not receive anything at all.


 @tamhubby in this analogy of comparing duty sex and knock-off x-boxes as Christmas gifts... OK, if you want a legit "x-box" in terms of marital intimacy, you will need to be the one to purchase the gaming console and then "share" it with your wife. Doing so may require that you give her huge advantages while playing to help her experience the joy of winning in the event you are playing a competitive game. You may also want to put down competitive games and try cooperative game play in which the two of you work together to defeat a challenge. But even in cooperative gameplay, you have to recognize your spouse is going to perform like a noob and need your help...

But wait @badsanta this is BS, because perhaps the wife in question used to be the absolute best x-box player in the whole world, and now she refuses to play anymore, or even put forth an effort. She just spams a random button on the controller making any form of gameplay incredibly annoying and impossible in two-player mode. What can a person do to resolve this? ....well if that is the case then one must recognize the "goals" in the game are no longer rewarding and should be ignored. Two-player mode in this game is now likely going to be about reverse engineering gameplay into something totally towards trying to make the game fail epically in a ways that are unexpectedly fun and rewarding.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> I'll accept that, in your case, the sex you want is not something that your wife can give you, for whatever dark reasons (and those dark reasons don't excuse her from failing to address her issues at such a high cost to you).


That is the difference between us. I think her reasons DO excuse her from addressing her issues. I have dark issues of my own that I refuse to address. If I excuse myself, them I must excuse her too.

You probably would not excuse either of us. That is OK. I am guessing most people agree with you and not with me.

My wife wrote me a love note today stating how much she loves me. Sometimes love is not enough. The trick is to recognize it soon enough that you are willing to divorce even though you both still love each other.


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## [email protected] (Aug 13, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> That is the difference between us. I think her reasons DO excuse her from addressing her issues. I have dark issues of my own that I refuse to address. If I excuse myself, them I must excuse her too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




As humans it would be unnatural to not want more in every part of our lives. How many men do you think would even entertain the idea of marriage if they though it would effect their sex life in a negative way? So it shouldn't be a shock when we question staying married when there is no sex. Regardless you need to talk to your wife and be brutally honest about the options you have considered.
I personally would not look forward to that conversation
Good Luck


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## sissyphus (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello all, can someone enlighten me on what all the abbreviations mean? Thanks


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

sissyphus said:


> Hello all, can someone enlighten me on what all the abbreviations mean? Thanks


HD = Hyper & Desperate 
LD = Lazy & Disinterested


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## tamhubby (Aug 24, 2017)

badsanta said:


> HD = Hyper & Desperate
> LD = Lazy & Disinterested


lol. That's certainly how it feels.

For the record, I think most people equate HD with High Desire and LD with Low Desire but I think this is a little misleading. I suspect in most cases HD really means Higher Desire not High Desire - High Desire suggests high relative to what might be generally considered as the norm, while Higher suggests higher than your partner. Higher Desire might still be quite low relative to someone with High Desire.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

badsanta said:


> Another way to look at Duty sex is like receiving a Christmas gift from someone that does not really know what to buy you but thinks they found you just the perfect thing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This can be fixed. It is a communication issue. The gift-giver here does not know and needs to be informed. 

Let's say I want an X-Box. My wife knows I really want an X-Box. An X-Box would make me very happy.

Here is what I get:










I should be happy with this. Why am I complaining? I should be very grateful to get a tie. Many husbands never even get ties.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Finwe said:


> Here is what I get:


... and not only is it just a tie, it's a really bland, boring, generic, vanilla tie. Probably came from from a clearance rack at JC Penny.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Finwe said:


> This can be fixed. It is a communication issue. The gift-giver here does not know and needs to be informed.
> 
> Let's say I want an X-Box. My wife knows I really want an X-Box. An X-Box would make me very happy.
> 
> ...


OMG the link to that image is literally "cheap-neckties (dot) com" AND you seriously would be happy with that?

So when my wife tells me to take her out to a nice restaurant and for me to dress my best, but instead I throw on the cloths I wore yesterday and take her out for a Wholesale HotDog Combo while I shop afterwards for some power tools:










...if your theory is correct, THEN



> She should be happy with this. Why is she complaining? She should be very grateful to get a hotdog. Many wives never even get hotdogs.


I think it would be obvious that would not work very well if roles were reversed. 

As for your original description, I'd very happily settle for my wife explaining why she decided NOT to get me an x-box and have an honest conversation about what would need to happen in order for her to feel more confident about me enjoying an x-box from her.










Regards, 
Badsanta


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

The analogy breaks down with presents because you want her to enjoy sex with you. She can get you the exact XBox you want and you don't necessarily need her to have enjoyed shopping for it and comparing all the different models. It's fine if her only effort was clicking 'Buy Now' on Amazon. But I doubt you'd be happy with sex like that. 

If all you want is for her to lie there disinterested, that is easily achievable. But what most people want is for their partner to enjoy the act or at least enjoy that they are making you happy. If your partner is doing their best, you should recognize and appreciate that even if they aren't doing everything you want. If it's still not enough and you just can't live without <your_personal_sex_list> on a weekly basis, then you have to decide what's more important. 

But if your partner isn't even interested in making an effort, that's a sign the marriage is doomed regardless of the lack of sex. If you say "I need intimacy in this marriage" and she replies "Too bad. Tough luck. Not going to happen.", then there really isn't much hope for improvement.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

badsanta said:


> sissyphus said:
> 
> 
> > Hello all, can someone enlighten me on what all the abbreviations mean? Thanks
> ...


This is one of the funnier things I've read in a very long time!!!!


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## [email protected] (Aug 13, 2017)

tamhubby said:


> lol. That's certainly how it feels.
> 
> 
> 
> For the record, I think most people equate HD with High Desire and LD with Low Desire but I think this is a little misleading. I suspect in most cases HD really means Higher Desire not High Desire - High Desire suggests high relative to what might be generally considered as the norm, while Higher suggests higher than your partner. Higher Desire might still be quite low relative to someone with High Desire.




Men are always going to have a higher desire than their female partner unless they are low on testosterone. However when you have a man who continues to get turned down, he may shut down and look elsewhere. Spouses who depriver their mate are flirting with disaster, I often wonder if they realize what is at stake. 


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> tamhubby said:
> 
> 
> > lol. That's certainly how it feels.
> ...


Ignorance.

Men will always have a higher drive than their female partners is not true and spreading this idea is a problem.

There are many mismatched couples where the woman is the higher drive partner.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* FaithfulWife
Men will always have a higher drive than their female partners is not true and spreading this idea is a problem.

There are many mismatched couples where the woman is the higher drive partner. *

So true FW. I suppose there are a few more HD men than HD women.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Men are always going to have a higher desire than their female partner unless they are low on testosterone. However when you have a man who continues to get turned down, he may shut down and look elsewhere. Spouses who depriver their mate are flirting with disaster, I often wonder if they realize what is at stake.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


This is a misnomer. Let's say you are a man with a "higher desire" and you "always" perceive things that way... 

Meanwhile your wife may have a "higher desire" for nonsexual intimacy and will "always" perceive men as emotionally unengaged and disinterested in anything other than a gender that often needs masturbatory assistance. 

Neither of the above statements are 100% true, but just demonstrate there are two sides to a story when it comes to "desire." It is not that one gender inherently has one type of desire than the other gender, but it is however extremely likely that one's gender causes you to struggle to understand how the other gender's desire actually works. Add to that everyone is different.

HD = Horny & Determined
LD = Lonely & Defensive

Badsanta


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

badsanta said:


> HD = Horny & Determined
> LD = Lonely & Defensive


Just to add to the fun:
HD - Happily Divorced
- from -
LD - Loins Dead


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## KaraBoo0723 (Oct 1, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ignorance.
> 
> Men will always have a higher drive than their female partners is not true and spreading this idea is a problem.
> 
> There are many mismatched couples where the woman is the higher drive partner.




I am HD, my H is LD. We've been together for over 6 years and married a little over 3 years. This has been an issue from the beginning, I went without any type of intercourse for 13 months at one point. I experienced the same problem in my first marriage of 7 years. 

I fully believe there is a workable solution for us both -- finding it will happen although clearly not as quickly as I might hope. I'm not giving up but there have definitely been times when I considered it, printing out divorce papers and handing them to him with the statement "If my sex drive and desire for physical intimacy as well as emotional intimacy is so unimportant to you then go ahead and file right now -- if it is important then I need evidence that it is, not just pretty words." My exh was not worth the work (I refer to him as my starter husband) but the man I married 3 years ago absolutely is. I strive to keep that thought front and center at all times. 


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

It would be interesting to see something that definitively confirms the HD/LD proportions of both sexes. 

We were all raised to believe that men are more into sex than women. It is so ingrained, it's hard to believe otherwise, even to the point that it's easier to believe that the women on this site are not representative of women in general than to chuck something we've internalized all our lives.

Now, if there's not a huge difference between men and women in this regard, then the false narrative may have caused a lot of problems. How many HD men have settled for infrequent, vanilla sex because they were led to believe that's just how women are? How many LD women put up with annoying horndogs because they were led to believe that's just how men are?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I don't refuse it... I would if I knew I could fix it... but I can't... so, since I'm not leaving (yet), I take it. Sex is ok when it happens and I still fancy my wife, despite her good efforts at putting me off... >


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It would be interesting to see something that definitively confirms the HD/LD proportions of both sexes.
> 
> We were all raised to believe that men are more into sex than women. It is so ingrained, it's hard to believe otherwise, even to the point that it's easier to believe that the women on this site are not representative of women in general than to chuck something we've internalized all our lives.
> 
> Now, if there's not a huge difference between men and women in this regard, then the false narrative may have caused a lot of problems. How many HD men have settled for infrequent, vanilla sex because they were led to believe that's just how women are? How many LD women put up with annoying horndogs because they were led to believe that's just how men are?


Many of us women have been saying this for years. 

If there was more understanding about sexuality and less stereotypes and shaming, there would be a lot more sexually healthy adults. The way sexuality really works is much different than the sitcom nonsense where men are always chasing women and the women are running away or dismissive. That's just so one dimensional, sexuality doesn't stay in neat little boxes like that.

Of course when a man finds himself in that stereotyped position, it seems to him that this is at least normal. What about when a wife is in that position? She doesn't feel this is normal at all....but it actually is. That kind of mismatch is quite common. Some men just don't have that much of a sexual pulse. And I don't mean a small portion of men, it is not a rarity. Highly sexual women like myself and many others are not rare either.

I could (and have) gone on about this topic forever but I'll stop.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

I'm a regular poster on this Low Drive / Duty sex type threads. For some reason, I'm having a really difficult time with my wife's low drive this weekend. It just feels so damn unfair, like why did MY WIFE have to lose her libido? I feel that I am a good husband and father.... I'm a better husband than she is a wife, that's for damn sure! My needs are absolutely LAST on the priority list, all the time. The past 2 Saturdays I have spent my day off working at her parents house. They're getting ready to sell their house, and I've been taking care of making lots of improvements on the yard and outside of the house. To be honest, I've worked my ass off, and her parents were very appreciative of my efforts, gushing about what a great son-in-law I am. Did any of that transfer to my wife wanting to make love to me... HELL NO! I'm not saying I need to be rewarded with sex, but I would think that would get her feeling good about me, about us, and lead to sex. 

My wife told me sometime that she wants to have a date night that "doesn't have to end in sex". WTF? We get so few opportunities for date nights, we get so few nights without the kids... and she wants to spend it not having sex? Okay... I guess I see how important it is for her. It's really starting to get difficult. Just recently, my wife told me she doesn't like me touching her boobs unless it's during intercourse. This is in addition to no oral sex either way, no touching of her vagina with my hands... there's just too many god damn rules! It's not fun anymore. She has basically reduced foreplay to me getting a light hand job while keeping my hands to myself. I'm 35 years old now, and while I have no trouble getting an erection, it takes a little more to get me in the mood than it used to. I need at least some semblance for foreplay! I've stopped initiating because I know that it won't be enjoyable. It's starting to be all that I think about. I am not some unreasonable horndog, nor am I this ******* who expects his wife to reward with me sex if I do something like clean the living room or wash the dishes. For awhile, I was trying to take blame for my wife's lack of sex drive. I understand that my wife is not attracted to me at the moment... I get that. Then I realized... I am not a perfect husband, but I'm a pretty good one. I'm a good person who puts my family first always, and I don't deserve to be treated like this! I'm not a model, but I'm not ugly enough to repulse my wife.

Not sure what to do about it, though. I don't want to cheat, but I gotta be honest... the prospect of outsourcing is starting to sound like a reasonable option. To just feel a woman reciprocate sexual energy, with no stop signs (or at least reasonable stop signs) is starting to sound really nice. I don't think I could ever do it, but the fact that I'm even considering the possibility scares me. Like I said, I'm just having a bad day with it... tomorrow (Monday) I'll go to work, get my mind involved with something else, and I'll forget all about my sex life. Can't wait.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

podiumboy said:


> I'm a regular poster on this Low Drive / Duty sex type threads. For some reason, I'm having a really difficult time with my wife's low drive this weekend. It just feels so damn unfair, like why did MY WIFE have to lose her libido? I feel that I am a good husband and father.... I'm a better husband than she is a wife, that's for damn sure! My needs are absolutely LAST on the priority list, all the time. The past 2 Saturdays I have spent my day off working at her parents house. They're getting ready to sell their house, and I've been taking care of making lots of improvements on the yard and outside of the house. To be honest, I've worked my ass off, and her parents were very appreciative of my efforts, gushing about what a great son-in-law I am. Did any of that transfer to my wife wanting to make love to me... HELL NO! I'm not saying I need to be rewarded with sex, but I would think that would get her feeling good about me, about us, and lead to sex.
> 
> My wife told me sometime that she wants to have a date night that "doesn't have to end in sex". WTF? We get so few opportunities for date nights, we get so few nights without the kids... and she wants to spend it not having sex? Okay... I guess I see how important it is for her. It's really starting to get difficult. Just recently, my wife told me she doesn't like me touching her boobs unless it's during intercourse. This is in addition to no oral sex either way, no touching of her vagina with my hands... there's just too many god damn rules! It's not fun anymore. I've stopped initiating because I know that it won't be enjoyable. It's starting to be all that I think about. I am not some unreasonable horndog, nor am I this ******* who expects his wife to reward with me sex if I do something like clean the living room or wash the dishes. For awhile, I was trying to take blame for my wife's lack of sex drive. I understand that my wife is not attracted to me at the moment... I get that. Then I realized... I am not a perfect husband, but I'm a pretty good one. I'm a good person who puts my family first always, and I don't deserve to be treated like this! I'm not a model, but I'm not ugly enough to repulse my wife.
> 
> Not sure what to do about it, though. I don't want to cheat, but I gotta be honest... the prospect of outsourcing is starting to sound like a reasonable option. To just feel a woman reciprocate sexual energy, with no stop signs (or at least reasonable stop signs) is starting to sound really nice. I don't think I could ever do it, but the fact that I'm even considering the possibility scares me. Like I said, I'm just having a bad day with it... tomorrow (Monday) I'll go to work, get my mind involved with something else, and I'll forget all about my sex life. Can't wait.


All I can say is you are sooooo not alone.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I was always higher drive than my ex. I made him get his T tested and he was normal. 
It was humiliating. 

Re: Outsourcing. 

This is all going to sound horrible but try to not judge. 
Due to the nature of my relationship I often look for and find men to sleep with. 

90% of my responses come from married men. About 75% of them in low desire or sexless marriage. I get sob stories of how they just want to be touched by someone who wants to touch them. They want me to be their outsource. It's heartbreaking but I have a no married veto. 

My bf is going to take away my veto power at some point cause I'm being too picky so we'll see what he comes up with for me but I have asked him if I can hold to my no married. 

Anyway, the problem with outsourcing is that you're forgetting there is a whole other person involved in it. Who has feelings. If I did sleep with them I would have tremendous guilt. I would feel horrible. Your wife may come after them and their family. You could make her feel responsible for breaking up a home. 
What is she getting out of being your outsource partner other than a lot of risk and damage?


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I was always higher drive than my ex. I made him get his T tested and he was normal.
> It was humiliating.
> 
> Re: Outsourcing.
> ...


All things I have considered, and why at this point it is still not a realistic option for me. At this point, the risk:reward ratio is like 90:10, which means I am nowhere near being ready to outsource. It's just a thought that sounds nice, sometimes. It seems like the most realistic way for me to have mutually enjoyable sex again, but my marriage is still pretty good other than the sex. If I could just take sex as a concept completely out of our lives, I think we'd have a very happy marriage! If I could somehow just castrate myself and be like Varys on Game of Thrones, I could finally just be the husband she wants me to be without being bogged down by my ever present sex drive. 

If I were to outsource, I would probably also have a no married people rule. I have no desire to play a part in destroying somebody else's life. Then again, I'm too much of a "nice guy" to ever do anything like that anyway, so it's an irrelevant conversation. Just keep playing with myself while my sex life slips further and further away.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If you're good at obfuscation and at keeping a good poker face the risk is near zero.

It's like crime. The smart ones rarely get caught.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

john117 said:


> If you're good at it the risk is near zero.
> 
> It's like crime. The smart ones rarely get caught.


There is still emotional risk. I worry less about the wife catching me as I do how I'm going to feel about doing it. I'd be forever looking at women when I'm out wondering if that is the wife I harmed. If she is the one going home every day thinking her husband is faithful. It would kill me. 

Even knowing these men are looking is killing me. I've had 2 messages from men I know, I've met their wives. I had a dinner party with one. It's eating at me. 

He didn't know who I was ftr. I have no face pics and no identifying information until I pick one. 

Risk is not always external. Internal risk is just as bad


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Sometimes I feel like it defines me, in a way. The fact that my wife doesn't find me sexually appealing. It's like, no matter how many times she tells me she loves me, all I hear is "I love you, but not enough to want to **** you."

Here's something I'm struggling with today. I haven't gone down on my wife since before my son was born, and he's 6. She just won't allow it. So now, I get to walk around everyday being the pathetic loser who hasn't performed oral on a woman in over 6 years!! I would love to be able to do that! To work with her, to try to make her enjoy it... I want it to be something we can rediscover together! But no... just another stop sign. Another reality hit me today; there are KIDS 20 years younger than me that are getting more action than I am!! I know, I used to be one of those! When I was 17, I was getting BJs at least a couple times a week from my g/f, and I was doing my share of oral to her as well. I'm a 35 year old married man, who works hard to provide for my family... and yet, I was getting WAY more action when I was a little 17 year old PUNK? 

Man, I'm really wallowing in self pity today. Sorry, everyone. Just really having a bad day with it.
Part of it may because I hung out with 2 of my oldest friends the other night. One of them is engaged, and they are having sex daily. His wife to be is a self proclaimed sex fiend. This particular friend is on cloud 9, and there's a certain pep in his step that is clearly absent from mine. The other friend got divorced about a year ago from a marriage that was way worse than mine. They truly hated each other, and literally would go MONTHS without sex. Now, he is hitting all the dating/hookup apps. The guy gets laid all the time. He said it's mostly divorced girls in their 30s who married young and never got to really experience a varied sex life... aka my wife. Now that they're divorced, they're pushing boundaries and doing sexual things they've never done before... even though I'm sure their ex husbands wanted them to. I didn't really give them many details of my sex life, just "yeah, still getting it fairly regular." Which is true, but they don't need to know that 75% of the time my wife and I have sex, she acts as though she's mentally compiling her grocery list while I thrust away. Sorry if I'm thread jacking... today has just been hard, and I can't really talk about this with anybody else.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

podiumboy said:


> Sometimes I feel like it defines me, in a way. The fact that my wife doesn't find me sexually appealing. It's like, no matter how many times she tells me she loves me, all I hear is "I love you, but not enough to want to **** you."
> 
> Here's something I'm struggling with today. I haven't gone down on my wife since before my son was born, and he's 6. She just won't allow it. So now, I get to walk around everyday being the pathetic loser who hasn't performed oral on a woman in over 6 years!! I would love to be able to do that! To work with her, to try to make her enjoy it... I want it to be something we can rediscover together! But no... just another stop sign. Another reality hit me today; there are KIDS 20 years younger than me that are getting more action than I am!! I know, I used to be one of those! When I was 17, I was getting BJs at least a couple times a week from my g/f, and I was doing my share of oral to her as well. I'm a 35 year old married man, who works hard to provide for my family... and yet, I was getting WAY more action when I was a little 17 year old PUNK?
> 
> ...


This issue probably does deserve it's own thread but since you are dealing with some duty sex as well, it likely is relevant. 

But do you want to hear the real sad part of your issue?? The real sad part is if you were to divorce, then it would just be a matter of time before some dude was chowing down and she would be gasping and heaving her hips up in the air and she would be grabbing the back of his head and shoving his face into her and then she would suck him dry as well. 

Unfair?

You're dang toot'n right that's unfair! But it is how the world works. 

Yes, your buddies are having great sex at the moment. They are having great sex today but the price they had to pay to get there is they too had to endure years of lackluster sex and then probably months and months if not a couple years of virtually no sex and then they had to divide up half their assets and then pay the courts and their lawyers thousands and thousands of dollars to finally be free. 

And there is a good chance your buddy that is marrying the "sex fiend" will cycle through that process again in a number of years. 

Everything has a price. 

The price of freedom and dating new people off of dating sites is divorce. It's a steep price tag but for many people, once the reach a certain point, that price is worth it. 

People divorce when the pain of staying outweighs the fear and expense of leaving. 

People also have this fear that if they leave their partner and leave the life they've known for years or even decades that they will end up alone and being eaten by their cats when they die. 

But some of them wake up one day and realize they 'might' die alone if they leave but they "KNOW" that they will never feel alive again if they stay. 

It's when those worlds collide that they pull the ejection handle.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

podiumboy said:


> Sometimes I feel like it defines me, in a way. The fact that my wife doesn't find me sexually appealing. It's like, no matter how many times she tells me she loves me, all I hear is "I love you, but not enough to want to **** you."
> 
> Here's something I'm struggling with today. I haven't gone down on my wife since before my son was born, and he's 6. She just won't allow it. So now, I get to walk around everyday being the pathetic loser who hasn't performed oral on a woman in over 6 years!! I would love to be able to do that! To work with her, to try to make her enjoy it... I want it to be something we can rediscover together! But no... just another stop sign. Another reality hit me today; there are KIDS 20 years younger than me that are getting more action than I am!! I know, I used to be one of those! When I was 17, I was getting BJs at least a couple times a week from my g/f, and I was doing my share of oral to her as well. I'm a 35 year old married man, who works hard to provide for my family... and yet, I was getting WAY more action when I was a little 17 year old PUNK?
> 
> ...


This just breaks my heart. I think it's one of the worst things to deprive your spouse of a healthy sex life and if I remember your story there isn't really anything you can do on your end that you haven't yet tried to get improvements 

It's worse that the rest of your marriage is good. As stupid as that sounds. Cause if the rest was bad, it's easy to walk away. But walk away from good for sex. That's a tricky one. 

Don't outsource. But you know that. It will switch your pain to guilt. Just dumping your bad emotions into another form. You'll get more resentful of your wife and why the heck can't she just do that?!! 

You can always ask for an open marriage but that is unlikely to go over very well.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It's worse that the rest of your marriage is good. As stupid as that sounds. Cause if the rest was bad, it's easy to walk away. But walk away from good for sex. That's a tricky one.


Oh, so very true. It's even harder when she is actually attracted to you and honestly tries (at least from time to time).


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

podiumboy said:


> Sometimes I feel like it defines me, in a way. The fact that my wife doesn't find me sexually appealing. It's like, no matter how many times she tells me she loves me, all I hear is "I love you, but not enough to want to **** you."
> 
> Here's something I'm struggling with today. I haven't gone down on my wife since before my son was born, and he's 6. She just won't allow it. So now, I get to walk around everyday being the pathetic loser who hasn't performed oral on a woman in over 6 years!! I would love to be able to do that! To work with her, to try to make her enjoy it... I want it to be something we can rediscover together! But no... just another stop sign. Another reality hit me today; there are KIDS 20 years younger than me that are getting more action than I am!! I know, I used to be one of those! When I was 17, I was getting BJs at least a couple times a week from my g/f, and I was doing my share of oral to her as well. I'm a 35 year old married man, who works hard to provide for my family... and yet, I was getting WAY more action when I was a little 17 year old PUNK?
> 
> ...


I think the challenge for you is that you want to be like them in a way...but _with your wife_.  It sounds like you truly love her and she loves you, but you wish she'd lust after you, as you do her. So, while you may envy your friend who is getting laid every night by different women, he doesn't have what you have - a wife who loves you, but lacks a bit in the sexual part. Hope things get better for you, but know that nothing is perfect and that if your marriage is worth it, you'll both find a way to have better sex. There are workshops (not therapy) for this, I saw on a show recently. lol I was like, that's interesting.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Oh, so very true. It's even harder when she is actually attracted to you and honestly tries (at least from time to time).


Sometimes I will plead my case... and I mean, I'll actually do a decent job of it... and she'll see my point of view. And she'll try. She really will try. And we might have a couple sessions of decent/good sex. We actually had sex on our anniversary about a month ago that was on par with pre-kids sex. No oral or anything, but the actual act of intercourse was unlike anything we have had in a couple years at least. I was amazed, as was she. A couple nights later we did it again, and it was still good but not that great. Then the time after that, it was back to the usual mindless duty sex. It just doesn't come naturally to her at all. She has to actually allow herself to be vulnerable enough to bring out her sexual side... which is just not very often.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

podiumboy said:


> She has to actually allow herself to be vulnerable enough to bring out her sexual side... which is just not very often.


I suspect that's a very common phenomenon.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Oh, so very true. It's even harder when she is actually attracted to you and honestly tries (at least from time to time).


I can imagine it's quite frustrating when it's just one thing that could fix so much and it's supposed to be fun and easy. 

I do sometimes wonder if a bdsm-lite model would work for some LD women. They would have to be willing to try. Just 1 week. 

First off - it helps get out of the mental side of things. Less inhibitions and guilt and shame, judgements. It's not up to us or on us anymore. 

Secondly- it can show her what your ideal is. Some women think if they give a little then it's a slippery slope to giving a lot more and more. 
You can show her that your main goal is mutual sex. 

That would put a lot on the man to make it pleasing and knowing where her limits can be pushed and where they can't. (Ie giving her oral sex vs deciding to try out anal) 

Any woman with a responsible and unselfish husband who was having problems getting into sex I would recommend a trial run to. Lite. No pain, no punishment. No fancy tools. Just "I'm in control now and you're going to be a good girl and do what I say" 

My first time hearing that flipped a switch in me that just kept getting better and better. 

But they aren't here and you can not do it without their consent. If they would agree, do try it. What's the harm? And it may work.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I can imagine it's quite frustrating when it's just one thing that could fix so much and it's supposed to be fun and easy.
> 
> I do sometimes wonder if a bdsm-lite model would work for some LD women. They would have to be willing to try. Just 1 week.
> 
> ...


Love the optimism. Problem is, a woman who isn't really into sex in the first place is probably the last one who might try something that far out. If she's not even willing to try something more "normal" like oral, what are the chances for something that far out?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Bringing BDSM Into The Marriage Bed | Never Sleep Alone

This link looks pretty good for tips on introducing bdsm to a conservative wife


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Love the optimism. Problem is, a woman who isn't really into sex in the first place is probably the last one who might try something that far out. If she's not even willing to try something more "normal" like oral, what are the chances for something that far out?


Sometimes we need to be told what to do for us to enjoy it. 

I can think of about 5 things I wouldn't ever try, ask for, or thought I would ever like or enjoy until I was told to do them and I loved it. 

We need to get out of our heads. I would say no to "can I go down on you" when my bf took my no away I had no choice but to enjoy it. 

That link is a good guide for a start. Simple simple commands. If she gives you a "who the f do you think you are" reaction, probably hit the brakes. If she lets it in a little, go a tiny bit more. And another tiny bit. Leave her intrigued and wondering. What has gotten into my husband? But ... I kind of like it.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Bringing BDSM Into The Marriage Bed | Never Sleep Alone
> 
> This link looks pretty good for tips on introducing bdsm to a conservative wife


Here's the tough part:
(from the article)
"She must never feel that you are doing this because you’re bored with your marriage or not sexually satisfied with her. "

I have found any suggestion beyond basic missionary to be automatically assumed to be evidence of dissatisfaction, and no chance of seeing it as a playful, fun thing to explore together. This is in addition to the basic hurdle that if she feels like she's satisfied with the status quo, there's little incentive to deviate from it.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> But do you want to hear the real sad part of your issue?? The real sad part is if you were to divorce, then it would just be a matter of time before some dude was chowing down and she would be gasping and heaving her hips up in the air and she would be grabbing the back of his head and shoving his face into her and then she would suck him dry as well.
> 
> Unfair?
> 
> You're dang toot'n right that's unfair! But it is how the world works.


This is the kind of thinking that keeps me up at night. I know this to be true... you're absolutely right. The next time we have a fight about sex (and there will be a next time), I am going to bring this up. Not in a hurtful way, just in a matter of fact kind of way. 

When I first started my online research into my problem, on a different forum, I had an overwhelming amount of people say "Dude, she's cheating on you!" "She's not giving you oral sex, or even putting any effort into sex in general with you, because you're no longer the main sex partner. She's got another man, and he's the one getting the oral, anal, and getting her fully into the sex." Lots of talk about Alpha vs. Beta bull****, and I was the Beta Bux and some other guy was taking care of her sexually. To put effort into sex with me would be to effectively cheat on the other man. I gotta be honest, this send me down a dark road. I was convinced that she was cheating. I would look for evidence constantly, and when I didn't find any, I would just convince myself that I needed to dig deeper. After about a year, I realized that I had to accept that despite my thorough research, I had found absolutely ZERO evidence that she had been cheating. All I found was that my wife is a truly decent, caring, giving person... so much so that I actually felt bad about trying to have sex with her at all! 

But I just had these images of her sucking another guy dry, her pulling his face into her vagina, and then them laughing about the fact that her husband is stuck with the sloppy seconds. Laughing about how I seemed so grateful to get a few minutes of duty sex 1-2 times a week. I don't struggle with that so much now, I have come to the conclusion that my wife really does have a low sex drive. But man, what an unpleasant ride. 

Also, while I am jealous of the fact that my buddies are having a great sex life, I don't necessarily wish I could duplicate what they're doing. My divorced friend is banging several different women. He seems to have ZERO standards. Some of the girls have been attractive, many have not been. Big girls, small girls, I think the youngest was 22 and the oldest was 48. He's constantly orchestrating between his women, it's pretty much become his primary job (his actual job taking a distant 2nd). And as for the other guy who is engaged to the "sex fiend", I know that's not sustainable. I used to be engaged to a sex fiend... 10 years later, not so much.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Bringing BDSM Into The Marriage Bed | Never Sleep Alone
> 
> This link looks pretty good for tips on introducing bdsm to a conservative wife


Thanks for the suggestions, I might as well try it out! Can't get any worse from here!


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Sometimes we need to be told what to do for us to enjoy it.
> 
> I can think of about 5 things I wouldn't ever try, ask for, or thought I would ever like or enjoy until I was told to do them and I loved it.
> 
> ...


Been there, tried that. 

Had good results with backpacking, climbing 14ers (mountains here in Colorado that exceed 14,000 feet in elevation), and trying exotic foods (Indian food is now her fave and she can't get enough). 

But sex? Not so much. I frequently reach a point of thinking I've suffered my last failure. Then I eventually get to the point that I suggest something new again--and get crushed, not just by her refusal, but also by her being crushed by me giving the impression that I'm not satisfied with her--that's the thing that really kills me and deters any future attempts. As such, they get fewer and further between as time goes by. We're now old enough, that that pretty much spells "time's up."


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

"Sometimes I want spontaneous sex without a date night."


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Podium:

Your problem is that you feel you are obligated to fulfill her needs and give the extra mile, while at the same time believing you deserve the same from her. 

The moment you understand, accept, and embrace that neither is true, you will find the path forward is to do _less_, not more. 

It absolutely kept me sane when I was running myself silly in the same damn hamster wheel you currently find yourself in.

Less, not more, Podium.

Have the intestinal fortitude (balls) to demonstrate you won't tolerate this situation any longer. Your words have said that, but your actions say something different.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Responses in bold below




podiumboy said:


> This is the kind of thinking that keeps me up at night. I know this to be true... you're absolutely right. The next time we have a fight about sex (and there will be a next time), I am going to bring this up. Not in a hurtful way, just in a matter of fact kind of way.
> 
> *I promise you, that will not turn her on or win back her desire.
> 
> ...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I think if it's something that keeps coming up in you and is bothering you, it's ok to crush her a bit. 

Sometimes we need a little boat rocking to wake up. 

I don't like the "destabilizing" methods as I think they don't work long term and run too much risk of taking the safety out of the marriage. 

But don't hide your feelings to protect hers either. 

If you're unhappy, say so. If you want more, say so.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I think if it's something that keeps coming up in you and is bothering you, it's ok to crush her a bit.
> 
> Sometimes we need a little boat rocking to wake up.
> 
> ...


I agree that rocking the boat is necessary.

I disagree that discontinuing to provide safety to a wife unwilling to prioritize her husband is a mistake.

In fact, I had to have that exact discussion with my wife when she was doing to me exactly what Podium's wife is doing to him. I told her that I would not provide the things she needed to feel safe while simultaneously seeing me miserable with a lack of sex.

It was then up to her. She didn't like that. My response?

"I don't like mediocre sex once a month or less. Why would I continue to provide what makes you complacent in meeting my needs?"

If she didn't like that, she was more than welcome to leave. After all, if it was that bad of me to do, she could certainly do better, right?

Less, Podium, not more.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I think if it's something that keeps coming up in you and is bothering you, it's ok to crush her a bit.
> 
> Sometimes we need a little boat rocking to wake up.
> 
> ...


Again...been there...done that...multiple times. Each time more painful than the last. 

If I'm going to rock the boat, I have to find a new approach. 

The compounding difficulty now is the post menopausal state of her equipment which requires significant recovery time between events, so even if we could alter the mental image, the physical limitation would still exist. Of course, if the problem is with the vagina itself, it would seem we could still have some pleasurable excitement in a non-penetrative way. She generally doesn't go for that either, although there have been times I have taken a strong lead and done this and she has appreciated the result--but for some reason she still remains reluctant--and the older we get, the less flexible she is--as though she reverts further and further back into old-fashionedness.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I think if it's something that keeps coming up in you and is bothering you, it's ok to crush her a bit.
> 
> Sometimes we need a little boat rocking to wake up.
> 
> ...


If it has never been brought up or discussed at all before, I would agree with you. 

But there comes a point where it has been discussed/argued etc ad nauseum and all it does is come across as whining and complaining and causes further loss of respect and attraction. 

I do not know if that point is the 4th discussion or the 27th, but I know that point does exist. 

After reaching that point, the safety of the marriage *IS* threatened and a state of instability already exists so at that point anything that gets people to wake up and take action is fair game. 

Whether the everything gets fixed and everyone lives happily ever after or not long term is anyone's guess. No guarantees in the world. But chronic, on-going sexual dysfunction is just as threatening to marriage and just as destructive as anything else.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> If it has never been brought up or discussed at all before, I would agree with you.
> 
> But there comes a point where it has been discussed/argued etc ad nauseum and all it does is come across as whining and complaining and causes further loss of respect and attraction.
> 
> ...


That's because you're still talking about it rather than doing something about it, or whatever you're doing in place of the things that she needs from you is not fulfilling you.

I found something incredibly fulfilling for me to do in the time that I used to spend on her priorities. When the sex wanes, I don't say anything to her anymore. That conversation has been had six or eight times, which is about five to seven times too many. I just start focusing on the things that I love, which is doing things with my son, or doing extra nights of jiu jitsu. 

It eventually reaches a boiling point for her, and she gets mad. I shrug my shoulders and tell her that when she's ready to make the relationship a priority again, I'm all for it. But not a moment sooner.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I want to add one more point to this.

Very few things are as unattractive as a needy husband. Trust me when I tell you that I speak from experience having been one. It's sort of like trying to push a rope.

The moment that you stop needing your wife, it shifts the marital dynamic.

My wife believes she actually wants me to need her, until I actually need her.

Think about it.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I see your point farside and I agree, if he is willing to follow through. He has to be ready and willing to do X if she can not provide Y. If he doesn't, its just trying to scare her into sex and it damages the safety and the meaning to his words. 

If he means it, it's telling the truth. 

Im in total favour or "I won't put up with it anymore, we're going to fix it or xyz consequences will happen" 

If he's serious and it's not just a game tactic or ploy


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I see your point farside and I agree, if he is willing to follow through. He has to be ready and willing to do X if she can not provide Y. If he doesn't, its just trying to scare her into sex and it damages the safety and the meaning to his words.
> 
> If he means it, it's telling the truth.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. Bluffing only makes the situation harder. Never...ever...ever play brinkmanship unless you are willing to go over the brink.

He also has to do it with zero resentment or venom in the conversation. It has to be cool, firm, and dispassionate.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

And yes to needy men aren't attractive. Same with whining and begging or acting grumpy when you don't get sex or asking stuff like "can we have sex tonight" 

That's horrible cause it's all normal emotions to be going through and yet showing them could be doing more damage. 

Crappy little cycle that is. 

Don't get sex so you're emotional about not getting sex which gets you less sex.


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## KaraBoo0723 (Oct 1, 2016)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> And yes to needy men aren't attractive. Same with whining and begging or acting grumpy when you don't get sex or asking stuff like "can we have sex tonight"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



^^^^^^^This. So many times. I've gotten to the point time and again where I am actually unable to orgasm even with masturbation -- it just makes me think of my H which makes me feel sad and inadequate to the point of being unable to climax in any situation. Then I am frustrated and horny and resentful and feel so undesirable which leads to an emotional eruption that only results in creating more distance and hurt in our marriage. It's one hell of a catch 22. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> And yes to needy men aren't attractive. Same with whining and begging or acting grumpy when you don't get sex or asking stuff like "can we have sex tonight"
> 
> That's horrible cause it's all normal emotions to be going through and yet showing them could be doing more damage.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. Been there and done that, too. You laid out exactly how well it worked.

The trick is to find something more fulfilling than sex with your spouse. 

I remember banging my head against that wall over...and over...and over again. Then I thought I had stopped needing my wife...but was still angry about the lack of sex. Then I found Jiu-Jitsu, and a slow transition began to happen.

By February of this year, I was competing in Jiu-Jitsu and then began teaching kick boxing classes a couple of evenings a week. When all of that came to fruition, I really began to realize that if I lost my wife, I had a full enough life that I wouldn't miss a beat, and I could certainly do better than a wife uninterested in pleasing me.

About that time, she started attending my kick boxing classes. She worked out like five times a year prior to that. 

Detachment+Absence=Insecurity

That is when the real shift occurred, even though I came here in early 2014 with a sexless marriage.

You see, my wife then became a part of my world rather than the focus of it. She will never occupy that space again, and our relationship has been much healthier for it.

Can you imagine the pressure of someone having to provide happiness to you? Nobody wants to bear that weight, Podium.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

KaraBoo0723 said:


> ^^^^^^^This. So many times. I've gotten to the point time and again where I am actually unable to orgasm even with masturbation -- it just makes me think of my H which makes me feel sad and inadequate to the point of being unable to climax in any situation. Then I am frustrated and horny and resentful and feel so undesirable which leads to an emotional eruption that only results in creating more distance and hurt in our marriage. It's one hell of a catch 22.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I liked your post but I hate your situation. 

I cried and yelled at my ex to just want to have sex with me. Almost a tantrum. It wasn't pretty and was a total turn off but it builds and builds. 

He told me my asking and pressure was too much for him to want to so I stopped and he did nothing and I'd blow up again. 

And I feel you, I broke down in tears masterbating one time. Just the unfairness of it. 

For me there was more than just that. An easy situation to choose to leave.


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## LaReine (Aug 14, 2017)

I don't do duty sex.

I enjoy sex and want to continue to enjoy it.
I'm HD and hubby is LD though. He absolutely will not have sex if he doesn't 100% want to... and even then it's usually a no.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I liked your post but I hate your situation.
> 
> I cried and yelled at my ex to just want to have sex with me. Almost a tantrum. It wasn't pretty and was a total turn off but it builds and builds.
> 
> ...


Even from a man's point of view, masturbation can be a wholly unsatisfactory substitute. 

I don't do it any more.

It was worthwhile as an occasional activity as part of what I thought was a reasonable sex life.

But when it's a substitute, that just doesn't work for me. Doing it _because I'm not getting the sex rather than in addition to sex_ just doesn't work. When every stroke is a reminder of what's missing, well that's a pretty quick path back to limp.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Read about a third of the thread, here and there.

Just wanted to chime in, in case it has not been mentioned, one downside of accepting sex from someone not feeling mutual desire is that it distorts reality. Even when concluding intellectually here be danger, it is very easy to feel once again as if things are looking up, s/he cares, is softening his or her heart, losing some of that selfishness or laziness, etc -- when in fact not a damn thing has changed. 

The effects are very asymmetric, and tend to keep one stuck in a cycle of hope and inevitable despair.

These days, when contemplating even the most kindly and generous offer of unwanted-sex-for-the-sake-of-you-not-leaving, I find it hard but still important to weigh the chains I'd be putting back on.


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## JayDee7 (Sep 12, 2017)

Turn her down. Tell her it's unfulfilling. It's the truth ain't it? Tell her you'll go and take care of your erection yourself, since she has no desire. It's rough but honest. She will blame you for whatever reason she has for being this way, nothing you can say will change it. If she has checked out and only will offer pity/duty sex just reject her if it hurts you when you accept it.


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