# What Is My Fiance Entitled To?



## AliceInWonderland (Jun 4, 2015)

Hello,

My fiancé and I are not married, we are engaged. He proposed to me four years in our relationship, and we have been engaged for two years. We have been together for six and a half years all together. Our seventh anniversary comes up in August 21st.

Due to the loss of his father and the loss of our daughter, he has become distant, cruel, abusive, lazy and heartless. Because I do not mourn the loss of our daughter the same way as he does, I apparently do not love her or miss her.
He attempted suicide a few months after our daughter's death and refuses therapy.
He tells me I should quit my job. I shouldn't want to have friends. I shouldn't want to be out and about. I shouldn't want to do anything or be anything.

I have heard the following from him.
"You obviously don't love or miss her as much as I do."
"if you really did miss her, you wouldn't want to have your job or be with friends"
"You just want to go out and be with other people to drown us out. You want to find someone more stupidly positive like you"
"You don't love our daughter. You don't miss her, you don't care"
"If you really did love her or miss her like I do, you would have tried to kill yourself out of devastation. You wouldn't want to go to work or go out or have friends. You would be at home crying and distracting yourself with games and tv"
"You only go to therapy to deal with me not because you're sad about our daughter"
"I can't believe you're going to work. You don't even think about our daughter, do you"
"It's disgusting that you won't quit your job. Our daughter is probably crying in heaven because her own mother won't quit her job out of pain or cry a tear for her. You're a b***h!"
"You're just stupid. I can't even look at you. I'm sorry mommy doesn't love or care about you. I'm sorry mommy won't quit her job out of pain or stay at home because she can't handle going out. I'm sorry mommy just wants to pretend we don't exist."
"You're probably happy our daughter died. God forbid she prevented you from going to work or going out with your friends and all the other stupid hobbies you do. Sorry you got pregnant. I feel horrible for our daughter."

And more. I have cried over our daughter. I do, almost everyday. I surround myself with my friends because they have been great to me since my daughter's death. I go to work because I love being with young kids. I go to work because we need an income. I teach swim to children because I love doing that. I go outside and surround myself with nature, trees, grass, fresh air because I love it. It helps me feel connected to my daughter on a deep level. I look up at the sky and smile because she's in Heaven. She's my guardian angel. Everything I do, I do for her.
I can't quit all my hobbies and I won't. Not because I'm not devastated but because doing my hobbies helps me. My daughter wouldn't want me to quit my hobbies. She wouldn't want me to stay at home and do nothing but cry all day.
The greatest tribute to the dead is not grief but gratitude. Everyday, I am grateful for my daughter and the time I had. Everyday I remember her. Everyday I tribute her. 
I am devastated. I am in pain. But I won't try to kill myself. My daughter wouldn't want that. 
I am all about the health of the mind, body and soul.

Besides his verbal and emotional abuse, he refuses therapy. He refuses to go to work. He had a great job but they fired him after his attempted suicide and his lengthy hospital stay. He refuses to find a new job or go back to his old one. (I don't know if they would take him back but he won't even contact his former boss who he admired). He won't do anything but sit and play video games all day or watch tv or movies. 

I got a necklace from my mother and he broke it because I wouldn't quit working. 
He isn't being nice. He isn't loving. He's distant and he has become cruel.

So I came here and posted, got some advice and I was told I should leave. Not what I want to hear but reality is reality. I do want to try to fix this marriage and give it my all before leaving. But I am aware that he will need to participate.
So, if I make an ultimatum list, I am obviously going to say that he needs to go to therapy four times a month. Among other things but I'll talk with my therapist. 
If any of you have any suggestions, please suggest away!

But, I might end up separating from him. So my question is, is he entitled to anything? I have a great income and a very high savings account which is separate from him. Our finances are separate, and he doesn't have access to my banking account. 
Is he entitled to some of my savings account? Will I need to give him spousal support if we aren't married?
I already know that I would let him have the apartment. But he won't be able to pay rent and bills for very long since he doesn't have an income. He has his savings account but it's not very much. If he uses that to pay rent, bills and food, it will go very quickly.

My out plan is to leave and stay at my parents while I look for an apartment. I did plan to give him money anyways because he'll need it and I have more than enough to support myself.
Is giving him money a good idea? I don't want him to become dependent on me because that is not healthy but I'm already taking care of him now.

Will I need to give him spousal support? Or since we are not married, will I just be able to leave without dragging this out and causing more pain and anguish?

And the most important thing... we have our daughters ashes in a special box that I made. How do we divide that up? I refuse to just let him have her ashes and I'm pretty sure he'll refuse to let me have her ashes and leave. So what do we do about that? This is our daughter and I will not just leave it behind.

I need advice and support. Today is a very sad and kind of a bad day. I have to leave in an hour to teach swim to a few kids and I'll check in later.
Thanks everyone. I really appreciate that there is a site like this that exists. I am grateful to have the opportunity to post here and possibly make friends. Thanks everyone in advance.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

So sorry for your loss. Your husband is taking is pain out on you and it is not acceptable. I can't imagine how you can listen to his diatribes. See a lawyer. You do not want to commit to any financial obligations until you have legal advice. I don't know about giving an ultimatum - it could just be more abuse heaped upon you.

He won't get help until he is forced to. Divide the ashes - it's the fair thing to do.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Here is the truth. Neither of you is healthy enough to make this work right now.

Him more so.

You should both take a break and get IC.

After you both get stronger, you can attempt couples counseling.

Take this advice. You won't regret it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Are you a signer on the lease?

Do you guys have any mutual debts? car, credit card etc.?

You aren't married, so your legal obligations are going to be pretty limited. I am not aware of alimony for non-married couples. 

You don't really owe him anything except a honest and frank discussion that you are tired of the abuse and emotional blackmail, that the relationship has collapsed and that you are leaving unless he gets into therapy immediately.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Finances highly depend on state laws. Some states have common-law marriage after a certain amount of time. Talk to a lawyer. 

Clearly your fiance is not coping and is taking it out on you. He likely will continue this until you stop accepting it. 

So very sorry to hear about your loss. I'm sure it must be devastating and it is important to do those things that help you. Your fiance is clearly not one of those things - at this point in time. 

I would separate if he won't get grief counseling. I know there would likely be a lot of guilt there, but you need to do what is best for you. And honestly, that is probably what is best for your fiance - however taking that opportunity to snap out of it and get help is completely up to him. 

You can't help him. You can only assist him in helping himself.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Not sure why you'd want to stay. How old are you two?

Take the ashes to the funeral home and have them divide them.

Then leave.


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## AliceInWonderland (Jun 4, 2015)

zillard said:


> Finances highly depend on state laws. Some states have common-law marriage after a certain amount of time. Talk to a lawyer.
> 
> Clearly your fiance is not coping and is taking it out on you. He likely will continue this until you stop accepting it.
> 
> ...


I never thought of it that way. Seperation could snap him out of it.
I feel guilty for even thinking about leaving because that adds another loss in his life but like you said, I do need to do what's best for me and staying with him isn't healthy. 

Losing my baby was and continues to be devastating but I'm moving forward. Trying to move to the highest good. She wouldn't want it any other way. I know she was just a baby (only 3 weeks old!  ) but I know she wants her mother to be happy and healthy. Happiness is hard. I feel guilty for being "happy" after her death but everything I do, I do for her. She's always in my heart, and there she remains forever.
Thank you for your compassion and your advice.


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## AliceInWonderland (Jun 4, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> So sorry for your loss. Your husband is taking is pain out on you and it is not acceptable. I can't imagine how you can listen to his diatribes. See a lawyer. You do not want to commit to any financial obligations until you have legal advice. I don't know about giving an ultimatum - it could just be more abuse heaped upon you.
> 
> He won't get help until he is forced to. Divide the ashes - it's the fair thing to do.


Yes, a lawyer is a good idea. I'll look into that for sure before I leave. I don't want to leave blinded and unaware of my options and ignorant to what to expect.
Thank you for your advice. Yes, we will divide the ashes. It's painful to say ashes.


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## AliceInWonderland (Jun 4, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Not sure why you'd want to stay. How old are you two?
> 
> Take the ashes to the funeral home and have them divide them.
> 
> Then leave.


Because he's the father of my child and I understand his pain. I wanted to be there for him and to help him through it but am now realizing that I can't because he's refusing all help.
I didn't want to leave because I feel guilty for adding another loss in his life, after his father and our daughter.
I'm afraid he'll attempt suicide again and possibly succeed because I won't be here to find him.
Many reasons why I stayed.

He's 28 and I'm 24.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Feeling guilty for happiness after is not abnormal. I see it as a type of survivors guilt and have gone through it after deaths of siblings. 

But our loved ones would want us to be happy. Happiness is a good way to memorialize them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kitt (Jun 3, 2015)

I'm so sorry. I read your other thread and I think this is for the best. His behavior is abusive and it isn't helpful to you or him for it to be ignored. I hope this snaps him awake to his life.....coping with a child's death is hard enough without being told how one should react to it. Please see a lawyer and get some support from a Grief Support Group. Sometimes we think we are ok, and it only manifests in other ways in our lives. Also, do not feel guilty for trying to become healthier and emotionally protecting yourself. I'm sending you all my best.....take care of yourself. Often the suicide attempt gets the attention while the quieter parent is emotionally neglected. I hope that isn't the case with you, but I have a feeling it is. I can't imagine what it must be like to have to talk about dividing ashes...please get some support for this, maybe a grief mediator.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Oh, sweetheart, I am so sorry. Please do whatever is going to bring you the most peace. You yourself need to be comforted.

((((Alice in Wonderland))))


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

AliceInWonderland said:


> Because he's the father of my child and I understand his pain. I wanted to be there for him and to help him through it but am now realizing that I can't because he's refusing all help.
> I didn't want to leave because I feel guilty for adding another loss in his life, after his father and our daughter.
> I'm afraid he'll attempt suicide again and possibly succeed because I won't be here to find him.
> Many reasons why I stayed.


You obviously care for him a great deal, and there is nothing wrong with that. 

There is no reason why you can't still be there to assist him, after separating, should he choose to seek help (as long as you take care of you first). You can offer to go with him to a support group or counseling and still not live there and be his emotional punching bag. 

You both need to go through the stages of grief at your own pace (Kübler-Ross). His lashing out at you likely puts him in between the 1st and 2nd stages, denial and anger. Meanwhile you may be a step ahead, bargaining. Thinking that if you put up with this and help him, then that will somehow makes things better. 

You have no control over his decision to live miserably, live happy, or not live at all. If he chose to, he could try again at any time, with you there or not. 

If this is how you feel, I'd make sure to let him know that you are not leaving him - you are leaving until he gets helps. And if he needs help doing that, you're willing. 

If he threatens suicide and the signs are there, sudden calmness, specific plan, means, time set, etc. you can call 911. They may put him in a 3-day suicide unit at the hospital. 

You can also call any of numerous suicide hotlines to learn more about what you can do. Even now, without imminent threat.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I have nothing useful to add except that I am sorry for this terrible situation. I cannot imagine losing a child. You are strong and kind to want to be there for your fiance. But you do also have to take care of you. Please keep us posted. And I am so sorry for your loss.


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## AliceInWonderland (Jun 4, 2015)

zillard said:


> Feeling guilty for happiness after is not abnormal. I see it as a type of survivors guilt and have gone through it after deaths of siblings.
> 
> But our loved ones would want us to be happy. Happiness is a good way to memorialize them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I completely agree with that. 
I'm so sorry for your siblings. A loved one's death is tough  I'm sending you my heart felt condolences. I hope you're memorializing them well by being happy, regardless of how difficult life can be. 
I've read your threads and see you have a daughter. I'm wishing you and her all the happiness in the world and then some. 

I'll keep everyone posted. Thinking of talking to my fiance tonight. I don't want to put this off any longer than I need to for our sake.


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## AliceInWonderland (Jun 4, 2015)

Kitt said:


> I'm so sorry. I read your other thread and I think this is for the best. His behavior is abusive and it isn't helpful to you or him for it to be ignored. I hope this snaps him awake to his life.....coping with a child's death is hard enough without being told how one should react to it. Please see a lawyer and get some support from a Grief Support Group. Sometimes we think we are ok, and it only manifests in other ways in our lives. Also, do not feel guilty for trying to become healthier and emotionally protecting yourself. I'm sending you all my best.....take care of yourself. Often the suicide attempt gets the attention while the quieter parent is emotionally neglected. I hope that isn't the case with you, but I have a feeling it is. I can't imagine what it must be like to have to talk about dividing ashes...please get some support for this, maybe a grief mediator.


A grief support group is a very good idea, thank you for mentioning that.
I definitely got neglected after our daughter's death. My fiancé attempted suicide a few months after so naturally everyone was more there for him than me. Eventually, I just grieved in peace.
Thank God I came home when I did, otherwise my fiance would be dead, too.
Even so, after my fiance's attempted suicide, I was so fixated on helping him, keeping an eye on him that I forgot about myself.

Truly devastating times. It was hard.
I'm going to look into a grief support group. There's shortage of resources and support so I might as well take advantage of them.
Health and happiness is important. For myself and my daughter, even if she's in Heaven.


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## AliceInWonderland (Jun 4, 2015)

jld said:


> Oh, sweetheart, I am so sorry. Please do whatever is going to bring you the most peace. You yourself need to be comforted.
> 
> ((((Alice in Wonderland))))


Thank you dearly for your compassion and your words. I do really need comfort and I'm going to do what is necessary to take care of myself. I've realized how much I've given and given and I've forgotten about myself in the process. 

Sadness has caught up with me today. I called my therapist and she's going to squeeze me in tomorrow. She's a very sweet person. 
I'm also going to do what is necessary to care for myself and bring myself comfort. 
Thank you  the compassion eases my pain.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

This might sound a bit harsh. I apologize in advance. Your "fiance'" dragged his feet for four years before proposing and he's continued to drag them for two more years. I quite understand the devastation of losing a child but I don't understand why someone would be too depressed to work or engage in hobbies outside the home but not too depressed to play video games. Rather than seek help so he can continue living with those on earth he allegedly cares about, he wants you to not only be too depressed to engage in normal life functions but he apparently wants you to commit suicide to prove your sorrow. This man needs professional help.

I do not believe you owe him a dime and it would probably be best for his recovery if he didn't get any material or financial support. Tragedy happens in this life. I will admit your's has been more severe than most people are confronted with but parents have suffered the loss of a child. It used to be quite common. People around the world and throughout the ages have had to continue living. Children love life and the best way to honor one would be to continue experiencing this world as a child would.. by noticing and taking delight in clouds, the feel of grass on bare feet, the sweetness of flowers, the joy of watching squirrels play, marveling at the work of bugs. She wouldn't be honored by cruel words to her mother. I think she'd probably smile at watching you help kids learn to swim. A friend of mine lost his 12 year old daughter. He used to be sort of grumpy, always tired, very overweight...typical cop. Once Jessica died, he endeavored to get the most out of life as a way of honoring her. He encourages others every day. He's dropped over 100 lbs and just completed the Iron Man competition. He has become an advocate for organ donation. No telling how many lives he's made better. Really, Jessica is making life better for lots of people through him.


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## AliceInWonderland (Jun 4, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> I have nothing useful to add except that I am sorry for this terrible situation. I cannot imagine losing a child. You are strong and kind to want to be there for your fiance. But you do also have to take care of you. Please keep us posted. And I am so sorry for your loss.


Thank you. The compassion does ease my pain.  
I'll keep everyone posted for sure. I'll need the support and the private venting space.
I'm going to try to talk to him tonight.

Thank you again. I'm lucky to have found this place.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

AliceInWonderland said:


> I completely agree with that.
> I'm so sorry for your siblings. A loved one's death is tough  I'm sending you my heart felt condolences. I hope you're memorializing them well by being happy, regardless of how difficult life can be.
> I've read your threads and see you have a daughter. I'm wishing you and her all the happiness in the world and then some.
> 
> I'll keep everyone posted. Thinking of talking to my fiance tonight. I don't want to put this off any longer than I need to for our sake.


Thank you for the kinds words, Alice. 10 years this summer. Some days it still feels like a fresh wound, but those are only a handful a year now. Much better than the near constant emotional turmoil when it's fresh. 

You've noticed an important thing in your first post - not everyone grieves the same way. Take care to grieve, and honor her, in the ways that work best for you.


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## AliceInWonderland (Jun 4, 2015)

unbelievable said:


> This might sound a bit harsh. I apologize in advance. Your "fiance'" dragged his feet for four years before proposing and he's continued to drag them for two more years. I quite understand the devastation of losing a child but I don't understand why someone would be too depressed to work or engage in hobbies outside the home but not too depressed to play video games. Rather than seek help so he can continue living with those on earth he allegedly cares about, he wants you to not only be too depressed to engage in normal life functions but he apparently wants you to commit suicide to prove your sorrow. This man needs professional help.
> 
> I do not believe you owe him a dime and it would probably be best for his recovery if he didn't get any material or financial support. Tragedy happens in this life. I will admit your's has been more severe than most people are confronted with but parents have suffered the loss of a child. It used to be quite common. People around the world and throughout the ages have had to continue living. Children love life and the best way to honor one would be to continue experiencing this world as a child would.. by noticing and taking delight in clouds, the feel of grass on bare feet, the sweetness of flowers, the joy of watching squirrels play, marveling at the work of bugs. She wouldn't be honored by cruel words to her mother. I think she'd probably smile at watching you help kids learn to swim. A friend of mine lost his 12 year old daughter. He used to be sort of grumpy, always tired, very overweight...typical cop. Once Jessica died, he endeavored to get the most out of life as a way of honoring her. He encourages others every day. He's dropped over 100 lbs and just completed the Iron Man competition. He has become an advocate for organ donation. No telling how many lives he's made better. Really, Jessica is making life better for lots of people through him.


Thank you. I was expecting to hear some blunt responses, no need to apologize for honesty.
That's the exact mentality I had. Children love life and they discover new things. I tried to see life through the eyes of a child when my daughter Lillian passed. I became more appreciative of the usual sights that you tend to ignore. Like flowers, squirrels, birds, the wind blowing through the trees, sunsets, sunrise, etc.
My way of coping with her death was by re-discovering things. It was by being out in nature. It was by throwing myself in hobbies. I have a lot of hobbies and I do them. I can't do all of them everyday but I have a lot of hobbies.

I work with kids because of Lillian. I am surrounded by toddlers and kids in a daycare everyday. Then, I teach children how to swim. I teach CPR to parents (and people who aren't parents). I'm very active with children, for children and for Lillian and because I love kids.

I was looking forward to when Lillian was a little older so I could teach her swimming. I never got that opportunity to do that with her. But I teach children and I'm sure Lillian is happy with me. 

Everything I do, I do for her. 
Thank you for what you wrote. You were honest and I appreciate it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Alice, I’m sorry for your loss. The death of baby is very hard to deal with. It think it’s a bit different than other kinds of losses because it’s preceded by so much hope and anticipation for months. 

I can understand the depth of both your pain as years ago I had twins who died at birth. I took a long time for me to recover from that. My husband showed no outward grief, but I am sure he was suffering. He would just not ever talk about it. 

One thing that might be feeding his anger is that often a husband will blame the mother for the death of a child when the death is so close to the birth. This is probably the basis of his anger. He does not know how to express it or how get rid of it. He sees you, the person who he probably blames every day. You are of course not responsible any more than he is. But often grief makes people have crazy thoughts.

We did go to a grief support group that is specifically for parents who lost a child. It’s an international organization but I cannot remember the name, except that it starts with “R”. They had a lot of info about this specific circumstance, how it affects marriages, etc.

The death of a child very often ends up leading to divorce. It change people in ways that we would never predict. 



AliceInWonderland said:


> I never thought of it that way. Separation could snap him out of it.


In situations like this, there is a line that that is crossed. At first you were being supportive and helpful because you care for your fiancé and you understand this devastation. But somewhere along the line it became enabling. 

He could not do what he is doing if you did not provide him a place to live, food, electricity and equipment for his computer games and TV. The reality of life would have forced him to deal with his issues so that he could eat, have a place to live, etc. But you enable him (probably out of a mixture of guilt and compassion). You might want to read the book “Co-Dependent No More”. Co-dependency is when a person puts the needs to someone else ahead of their own… to their own detriment. It’s a pretty normal human reaction to a very bad situation.

There is something else to consider. When a person holds on to anger and other negative emotions for a long time, it’s often because they are getting a huge pay back for doing it. Look at your husband. On some level he likes his current situation. He gets to play all day and have to you support him. What a deal. Why would he give that up. 

He is not going to start working on himself until he hits rock bottom. The best way to give him a wakeup call is for you to change your own behavior. Stop being his co-dependent. Stop taking care of him. He is a young, healthy man. He should be working and being a partner to you, not our ward.

I get why you have done what you have and why your find yourself where you are now in this relationship. But it’s time to now let him take care of himself. It’s time to let him hit rock bottom so that he wakes up and starts functioning again. To do this would be a huge act of love by you. Yep, what is going on now is misguided love. 

Love him enough to take the chance of losing him… Sure the two of you might never get back together. But would you rather have him with you in his current miserable state? Or would you rather have him happy and whole regardless of whether he’s with you or not?

Sometimes love is tough.



AliceInWonderland said:


> I feel guilty for even thinking about leaving because that adds another loss in his life but like you said, I do need to do what's best for me and staying with him isn't healthy.


You are coddling him. Let him deal with his situation. Let him learn that if he wants you, he has to become a functioning adult and partner.



AliceInWonderland said:


> Losing my baby was and continues to be devastating but I'm moving forward. Trying to move to the highest good. She wouldn't want it any other way. I know she was just a baby (only 3 weeks old!  ) but I know she wants her mother to be happy and healthy. Happiness is hard. I feel guilty for being "happy" after her death but everything I do, I do for her. She's always in my heart, and there she remains forever.


Ending this co-dependent cycle you two are in is a huge step in the right direction. I have no doubt that your daughter would not want either of you going through what you are now.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

On the topic of what he might or might not be entitled to, do some research on the internet?
Things like “your-state common law marriage” and “your-state palimony” 

If you feel ok about it, you can post your state here. There might be someone here who is familiar with the laws in your state.

This does not replace seeing a lawyer, but it could give you enough info so that you are not started at zero with an attorney.


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## AliceInWonderland (Jun 4, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Alice, I’m sorry for your loss. The death of baby is very hard to deal with. It think it’s a bit different than other kinds of losses because it’s preceded by so much hope and anticipation for months.
> 
> I can understand the depth of both your pain as years ago I had twins who died at birth. I took a long time for me to recover from that. My husband showed no outward grief, but I am sure he was suffering. He would just not ever talk about it.
> 
> ...


Elegirl, Thank you so much for your words. I am realizing I became an enabler. I was fooling myself thinking I was helping him. 
Where can I order the book Co-Dependant No More? Amazon maybe? I'll look on the internet. Surely I'll find it. Reading that is a great idea.

I also want to take a minute to say that I'm so sorry about your twins. You are a very strong person and your twins are proud. They may not be physically here on Earth, but they are alive in your heart and there they will remain.
Something I do is light a candle for Lillian and say a prayer. I do that even when I hear of other people who have lost a loved one. I pray for them, and for their loved one even if they have passed.
And I'll do that for you and your precious twins tonight.

Thank you dearly again. You've made me realize a lot that I have been ignorant to.
God bless you.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

OP, darling girl, I am so very sorry for your heartbreaking loss. I can't even imagine your pain... Please don't feel that you have to justify having hobbies, or working or even explain that she's in your heart every moment...of course she is and she always will be.

I have a different take to the other posters...given that your fiancé has had more support than you due to the circumstances I think that you really need to focus on yourself for the next little while and deal with your own grief and pain. Your fiancé is in pain too, I get that - but for whatever reason, he's not responding to your attempts to help him. He may simply not be able to.

I would encourage you to seek grief counselling on your own, help yourself first, then you may be able to help him.

Again, I'm so very sorry. I wish I could give you a real hug xxx


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Here is a link to the newest edition of the book. There is also a workbook if you want.

Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself


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## AliceInWonderland (Jun 4, 2015)

I'm staying at my parents house tonight and I'll be searching for apartments.

I talked to my fiancé and I told him that he can't sit around all day anymore. He needs to go to therapy. He said that he has no reason to go to therapy, why would he?
I said that he has become lazy, mean, cruel, heartless and emotionally abusive. I told him he needs to grieve for our daughter in a healthy way without attacking me.
He said that I'm the one who needs therapy. I'm the one with the problem because I'M lacking a heart. I'm the one who's "clearly not devastated enough" and that my daughter is up in Heaven frowning upon the horrible mother she has.
I told him that this relationship will NOT work if he continues to be like this.
He told me that he's disgusted that I would threaten him in such a way and that I want to leave to get rid of him and our daughter.

I ended up getting off the couch and walking away and I said that I can't continue this conversation if he continues talking to me like that.
He followed me and kept yelling how I'm a disappointment to our daughter, she hates me and I hate her. I started tuning him out because I didn't want to hear that.
I grabbed the box that I made where her ashes are in and hugged it (don't laugh at me, I cope like that) and he grabbed it out of my hands and yelled that I don't get to touch her since I obviously don't care about her and he threw the box away from me.

That crossed a line, I don't know what hit me but I started packing my stuff very quickly, texted my parents and said I'm coming over, confirmed with them that I can stay the night. I looked at him and said I'm leaving for the night and he threatened to kill himself and I got angry and said don't manipulate me and he said whatever, f*** you.

So I left. I got him threatening suicide on recorder. In fact, I got the whole conversation on recorder.
I also took my daughter's ashes with me. 
To which he texted after I left "keep the ashes. I want nothing to do with you or her. I am going to forget I ever knew you and forget I ever had a daughter with you. Her ashes are all yours. I don't want anything to do with her or you or your family. I don't care if I ever see you again. My new life begins now, sorry to Lillian. But her mother (you) Unfortanetly. Ruined everything. She knows. She sees everything from Heaven. So bye. If you come home tomorrow, don't talk to me. Keep Lillian's ashes because I'm done. I don't have a family and as far as I'm concerned I never did. And that's how it's going to be from now on."

So that was the events that took place tonight.
I'm not sure I will return home tomorrow. 
But I think it's over.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Wow, he's gone off the deep end. 

Note that he said two different things:

"My new life begins now" and threatens suicide. Most likely the suicide threat is just that, an empty threat to try to scare you into staying.

It's up to you if you want to do this, but with that recording you could call 911, play that part of the recording. They will most likely spend someone over there and assess if he is really a threat to himself.

Doing this has some advantages. 1) If he is suicidal, they can intervene. It's someone else doing it instead of you and that is appropriate. 2) If it's an empty threat.. well he'll lean that there are consequences to making that kind of threat.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

By the way. I think that this is a good thing you are doing. Like Frusdil said, it's time for you to take care of yourself. Time for you to get that help and support you have not had all this while.


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## AliceInWonderland (Jun 4, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Wow, he's gone off the deep end.
> 
> Note that he said two different things:
> 
> ...


Thank you again Elegirl, I really appreciate all the support I've received and continue to receive here. It's a breath of fresh air. Relieving, too. 
Obviously the relationship is over if I feel relieved to be away from him. I can't live like that anymore. I feel "peace" if that's the right word.

Regarding the suicide threat, my mom did call the police and played the recording and gave them the address. The police don't know that it was my mom, for all they know it was a stranger. But yes, the police were given a heads up, just in case.

I know for a fact that he was just saying that to manipulate me into staying. Which is sickening in all honesty. But like you said, consequences. If you want to use the word "suicide" so freely and attempt to manipulate someone with a suicide threat, that has consequences. 
If he ends up in the hospital, well... good. Someone else can care for him, someone who is actually a mental health professional. 

His suicide attempt after our daughter passed was traumatizing. The night he attempted suicide, I wasn't home. I had left to go see some fireworks with a few friends which he was annoyed by, he didn't want me to leave and told me I was being cruel to our daughter since I wasn't "sad enough". 
I had a "feeling" that I should go home. Something didn't feel right. I wasn't comfortable with that feeling so I went home. 
Then I found him and a bunch of empty bottles of tylenol, his anti-depressants, bipolar medication, and his Seroquel to help him sleep. All the bottles were full because he received before that night and I found all the empty bottles beside him, all empty. And his wrists were all slit up. 
Ambulance were called and he was in the hospital, they asked him if it was a suicide attempt (duh!) and he admitted yes. He was in the hospital were 2 weeks all together. He kept saying "as soon as I get out, I'll succeed" so they kept him longer.
The weekend that he got out, they asked if he wanted therapy because a psychiatrist would have been set up for him and he refused. 
They couldn't force him of course but when I heard him refuse therapy, everyone could tell I disagreed. 

Whatever. I don't know if he actually is a threat to himself right now, but I'm pretty sure not. I'm certain that was manipulation but consequences. 
I can almost see him just sitting at home playing his video games until the cops show up. 

Anyways, I apologize for my big vent. I need to talk apparently. I had/have a lot to say but I've been quieted and shushed. Not happening anymore. I'm not enabling him anymore. He'll just need to get back to working and become a productive member of society. If he chooses to get therapy, good. If he doesn't, it's not my problem.
And as for me, I'm going to keep going to my therapy. I'm going to attend a grief support group, and whatever other resources are available. I'm going to keep doing my hobbies, I'm going to keep going outside, I'm going to keep being with friends and I'm going to continue to honor, tribute and memorialize MY daughter in MY way. In a way that's actually healthy. Without being insulted, ridiculed and abused. 
Honestly, right now I don't feel ANY love for him. I care about him and I don't want him to commit suicide, I don't want him to hurt himself but right now, I don't feel love for him. Just anger and resentment which makes sense considering.
I tried to help him. I tried to get him to do what was best for him. But he didn't and doesn't want help. He just wants to insult, ridicule and abuse me and say some pretty cruel, nasty things.
Oh well. I tried. I promise I tried. God knows I tried.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Let it out. Allow yourself to feel that anger and frustration. You have good reason to be fed up.


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## AliceInWonderland (Jun 4, 2015)

zillard said:


> Let it out. Allow yourself to feel that anger and frustration. You have good reason to be fed up.


Thank you!
You're right. I am just feeling it all right now. At least I'm not hurting anyone. 
Haven't heard from him. I think they may have taken him to the hospital but I don't know. I'm not talking to him right now though, I need my space. 

I feel slightly guilty but I know that's ridiculous.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

AliceInWonderland said:


> Thank you!
> You're right. I am just feeling it all right now. At least I'm not hurting anyone.
> Haven't heard from him. I think they may have taken him to the hospital but I don't know. I'm not talking to him right now though, I need my space.
> 
> I feel slightly guilty but I know that's ridiculous.


Standing up for yourself after not doing so can do that. It's co-dependency talking. And yes, the book is on amazon. It's a good read.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kitt (Jun 3, 2015)

Codependency No More is by Melody Beattie. It is a good read.

Honestly, I knew this is how he would react. The emotional abuse he doles out to you is staggering. I'm so glad you are going to see a Grief Support Group. Perhaps through that you can find others who can help you really grieve your loss, instead of having to be constantly on alert for your fiancé. No matter what he is feeling, there is absolutely no reason he should be so horrid to you. Both of you share in this loss, and for him to be so abusive makes me wonder if he has always been like that. Stay safe and tend to your needs now. You deserve love and compassion, not censure and unkindness.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Again, I am probably going to get hammered for what I am about to say but here goes ...

AIW I understand why you are fed up and fully understand and respect your point of view. I believe that you are doing the right thing for yourself in leaving. 

However ....

I, for one, (probably much like your fiancé), grieve intensely for the loss of people that I love! When my mother passed away (I was 29 years old), I was dysfunctional for nearly 6 months! No-one in my family understood it including my siblings! I could not go back to work, I made enemies of the world and the church, I could not believe that everyone involved did not feel the same intense pain and sense of loss! Unreasonable ? Absolutely ! But it is understandable for me.

Now (and I cannot even bear to think of the thought), had I lost a child, who knows how I might have reacted. Depression, anger and inability to go to work would have just been the tip of the iceberg! I probably would have ended up locked up in jail or an institution. Not healthy you say - I know. But again understandable for me.

So I really do empathise and feel sorry for your fiancé as I think I have a slight glimmer of what he is going through. Everyone has already told me that I needed help, counselling, what ever, for the way I acted when my mother passed away. 

At a younger age, I lost my father and the reaction was the same - stayed out of university for four months in my final year (how I managed to pull it together after that I'll never know).


So just saying, that while all will condemn him for his bad behaviour I actually do kind of understand what he is going through. However, I am not him so I don't know how long it will be before he comes out of this (or if he ever will).

FYI my wife was my gf at the time of my father's death and my wife at the time of my mothers death. I was horrible to her both times and she stuck by me no matter what. But that was because she grieves in a very similar way to me (some might call us bat sh!t crazy when we grieve) and I had to go through the same thing with her when she lost her cousin, father (very hard for her) and finally, her mother!

So while we were not brilliantly matched on other fronts and had to work at it to make the marriage work, we were very much in tune with each others behaviour during grieving.

Not sure if this helps you but it is another viewpoint, I guess.

My heartfelt condolences and best wishes go out to you and I really hope the both of you find happiness soon.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Don't be surprised if he suddenly becomes a changed man.

He has relied on you for some time now, sort of a mother/son relationship. Suddenly he has no way to support himself and his meal ticked (you) just walked out on him.

He may very like try changing tactics now. If he comes to you with the story that he's changed, he loves you, yada, yada.. do not fall for it. If you decided to give it a try again do not just move back. He needs to get a job, clean up his act, go to a year of counseling (individual and marriage) before you will even consider getting back with him.

Have a plan of how you will react if this happens. Protect yourself in your weak moments.

Take a look at the link in my signature block below for the "180". That is how you need to interact with him from here on out. Have as little contact as possible. He's not your concern any more.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

AliceInWonderland said:


> I'm staying at my parents house tonight and I'll be searching for apartments.
> 
> I talked to my fiancé and I told him that he can't sit around all day anymore. He needs to go to therapy. He said that he has no reason to go to therapy, why would he?
> I said that he has become lazy, mean, cruel, heartless and emotionally abusive. I told him he needs to grieve for our daughter in a healthy way without attacking me.
> ...


I think he's very, very sick. He's off his rocker. 

You did the right thing.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

We all grieve in our own ways, but there is taking it to the extreme. Grief should not put a stop sign in front of the rest of your life. It should not guide your every action, but be a lesson of life that you carry with you. At least, that's my view. 

While he is obviously devastated, I also think that his illness and/or depression is twisting his feelings into something very toxic. There's no way he can tolerate any mood but one similar to his from the sound of it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Alice is a troll/sockpuppet.

I'm locking this thread s that no one wastes time on it.


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