# Turned Find My iPhone off, discovery options limited



## Zack-00

Looking for advice on a next step. Super condensed version:
I left with kids for long camping weekend.
Saturday - Wife went to friends for dinner - I can validate by asking friends.

I had called at 8:15pm, no answer.
I called again at 10:04 and 10:15 (I suspected she was out) - no answer.

Friend of friends, male going through divorce, sends her a facebook 
message at 10:26pm "Hey, where r u". No response from her on facebook messenger.

She calls back at 10:28 - "sorry I was sleeping, ringer was off". It is quiet in the background. We hang up (my mistake, should have validated her location somehow but I expected a revealing response on FB - nothing, so in hindsight no response because they were together - f'd up).

Fast forward today and I guess her iPhone code to check. No messages or phone calls, but I go to iphone email and there is a notice from iCloud that "find my iphone has been disabled" had been turned off - at 10:38pm on that same Saturday (why I think there was no response and they met somewhere).

I know the OM has sent her facebook messages, and she has replied, but they are deleted so fast I caught only a few (I was logged into her messenger on my phone).

Why snoop? Been cheated on by her in the past.

She was spooked two days later as she started bombarding me with calls/texts that I was ignoring while on last day of camp. She then went into cover up mode, de-activated facebook. So I don't know how her radar went off that I was on to her, had to be my attitude as I didn't confront and she had no idea how I was monitoring. I f'd up with her radar before I got anything more concrete and now she knows I know they have talked/met.

So... I'm 99% that she met him after they had dinner at mutual friends house, finding out what/where will be tough but I have to know as it equals divorce.

Because she knows some of my methods from a few years ago on how I caught her she is cautious (using facebook messenger instead of phone txt because they aren't logged), and will be incommunicado with him now.

Do I confront him and ask him to "confirm her story where they met", don't give any details and hope he fesses up? Any other ideas for next step? She will never just come clean without evidence, and I am out of historical data. 

2 kids, married 15+


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## Chaparral

Second time around. Why are you even looking. Just tell her you know what she did and tell her to leave. She's a serial cheat and can't quit.

Second time around you don't need proof. Just tell her your filing. Let her prove she's not guilty.

Call the om tell him he can have her. Just don't tell your "wife" your going to. Wait for her response.


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## Hicks

Don't try to catch her for the past. Catch her in the future. 

My recommendation though is if you are 99% sure she is cheating, the see a laywer and start the divorce process. What's another 1%?


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## GusPolinski

Serial cheater. Why bother? Just divorce.

That said, if she has location tracking enabled via FB, you can look through her location history.


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## Chauncey Hernandez

Do you have any other mutual friends who are connected to both wife and OM? Is his wife investigating his infidelity or does she already know? Since they are already going through a divorce perhaps he is either on radar of his own or he just cheats flagrantly because he doesn't feel married anymore. Either way if you're certain she's meeting this particular guy, it might be easier to find out from having someone else check in on the OM, since your wife already approaches every move with caution. I assume you just need confirmation of the affair for a solid divorce case, because you've already got plenty of reason to just go ahead and end the marriage.


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## Zack-00

I was 50/50 on if they met that night as his txt didn't get marked read. But the iphone location getting turned off changed my opinion - why turn it off if you are home asleep?

I know I am going to get a lot of serial cheat just divorce opinions, and it is probably correct, but knowing for sure would help my conscience regarding my kids. I hate knowing I'm a chump.


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## GusPolinski

Do you have the password for her Apple iTunes/iCloud account?

Do you use an iPhone as well? If so, do you use the same iCloud account w/ your phone?

I'm assuming that you also have the password for the email account linked to her iCloud account... is this correct?

Who is this guy that was messaging her? Any history between them?


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## arbitrator

*Seems as if she already has a track record, but if you are looking for the proverbial smoking gun, place a well-concealed VAR underneath her car seat!

Additionally, you need to do a somewhat thorough analysis of her cell phone/texting usage and look for "strange" phone numbers coming up rather frequently on it!
Once established, it's a piece of cake to find out who he is, even online!

In any event, I would already be in my lawyer's office getting the preliminary paperwork ready for D. It might also be a good idea to get yourself checked out by your doctor for the presence of any possible STD's!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

arbitrator said:


> *Seems as if she already has a track record, but if you are looking for the proverbial smoking gun, place a well-concealed VAR underneath her car seat!
> 
> In any event, I would already be in my lawyer's office getting the preliminary paperwork ready for D. It might also be a good idea to get yourself checked out by your doctor for the presence of any possible STD's!*



A VAR _could_ work, especially if you pair it w/ a bluff to call OM.

And, obviously, you'd have to KNOW that she's in the car when you make the bluff.

Did you take a screenshot of the FB message?

Did you save the email?


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## Zack-00

Chauncey - his wife left him because he was cheating on her with someone he worked with. In fact, this is the excuse my wife gave me for meeting alone (without mutual friends) with him initially - because he was "suicidal" over his divorce, can't see kids, new affair partner wants to leave him, blah, blah, she was just trying to help - and that it was only coffee because I was monitoring location at the time.

All - I realize this is all wasted effort and I should just divorce, somehow getting something concrete that they met helps me justify it more solidly in my mind - eliminating reasonable doubt.


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## Zack-00

GusPolinski said:


> A VAR _could_ work, especially if you pair it w/ a bluff to call OM.
> 
> And, obviously, you'd have to KNOW that she's in the car when you make the bluff.
> 
> Did you take a screenshot of the FB message?
> 
> Did you save the email?


bluff timing = yes
saved the FB message of "where r u" = yes
saved the location disabled email = yes


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## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> Chauncey - his wife left him because he was cheating on her with someone he worked with. In fact, this is the excuse my wife gave me for meeting alone (without mutual friends) with him initially - because he was "suicidal" over his divorce, can't see kids, new affair partner wants to leave him, blah, blah, she was just trying to help - and that it was only coffee because I was monitoring location at the time.
> 
> 
> 
> All - I realize this is all wasted effort and I should just divorce, somehow getting something concrete that they met helps me justify it more solidly in my mind - eliminating reasonable doubt.



Honestly, you should've brought the hammer down -- and HARD -- w/ respect to any plans to meet up w/ a KNOWN adulterer.

Come on, man... get your boots on.


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## Zack-00

GusPolinski said:


> Do you have the password for her Apple iTunes/iCloud account?
> 
> Do you use an iPhone as well? If so, do you use the same iCloud account w/ your phone?
> 
> I'm assuming that you also have the password for the email account linked to her iCloud account... is this correct?
> 
> Who is this guy that was messaging her? Any history between them?


I'm not on an iPhone. I do have the iCloud password, until she possibly checks and resets but I think it will be a while.

No history I am aware of. He is/was a friend of her best friend's husband. No history of contact before the last few weeks as I have snooped many times.


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## alexm

There are many more qualified individuals to give you the "what's next" responses here, but it certainly seems like something's up.

From my own POV, I'm not even sure I would pursue. If you're set on divorcing her if it turns out she screwed around, then I think you kind of already have enough in the bank to go that route. In other words, what's the point in trying to catch her?

If your relationship is already at the point where she's cheated on you once, and now she's acting extremely shady while you're gone away for the weekend - then what else are you expecting to find out?

One of the things many TAMers will tell you, post-affair, is that the spouse who did the cheating must make any and all efforts to do things like answer the phone, not have the ringer off, and generally be in constant contact with the betrayed spouse - especially when the BS is away from home for a period of time. Turning off location is also extremely sketchy. Why do that at all?

And equally important is that the methods in which the cheating spouse used during their affair must be kyboshed entirely. In your case, Facebook. Yet here she is, messaging the OM through Facebook. She suspects you snooped, so she deactivated her account. She deletes messages before you can read them, save for one or two. The OM sends her a message, in the evening, during a time where you are away from home with little to no chance of suddenly coming back, and he asks where she is. I'm not sure what other proof you require. The sheer fact that there's even still contact of any sort between them is enough, never mind one in which he's asking where she is, on a Saturday night, while she's home alone.

Also, what is she doing going out to dinner with friends, while this man is present? Never mind while you are not. He shouldn't be anywhere near her, or vice versa, whether you're with her or not (but especially if you're not).

When there's true reconciliation, post-affair, the cheating spouse needs to blow up all methods of communication, or at least make them all available to the BS, passwords, shared accounts, access to phone and browser history, etc. Clearly this hasn't happened, and you are still forced to snoop, and she is still forced to delete to cover her tracks.

Her behaviour alone is enough to condemn, IMO.

So to sum up:

She deletes messages
She deactivated her FB account when she suspects you might be looking at it
She disables location tracking
She doesn't answer the phone for several hours on a Saturday night, says she was sleeping
She's still in contact with the OM
He sends her a msg in regards to her whereabouts on a Saturday night, in which you are not home
This following a dinner with mutual friends
He is a known cheater
She has/had the urge to be a caretaker for him when he was "down"
She's cheated on you

This is enough, imo. Don't waste any more time, don't bother with a VAR, or trying to catch her. These things aren't coincidental, and there's no other logical explanation.

"Oh yes, honey, after I went out to dinner with our friends and OM, I went home and went to bed. I turned off the ringer and the location tracking because I didn't want you to know I was AT HOME SLEEPING. Oh, and I deactivated my Facebook account for no apparent reason. Oh, OM sent me a message that night asking me where I was? I didn't even see that! I have no idea what he wanted, honestly. Like I said, I went home to sleep and turned off every electronic device so I wouldn't be disturbed. Honest!"


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## GusPolinski

Zack, the fact that you had to GUESS the unlock code to her iPhone doesn't bode well for you. Neither does your meek acceptance of the fact that she may start changing passwords soon.

Come on, man... did you set _any_ terms w/ respect to _any_ of these things the first time around?

Also, what kind of vehicle does your wife drive?


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## Zack-00

GusPolinski said:


> Honestly, you should've brought the hammer down -- and HARD -- w/ respect to any plans to meet up w/ a KNOWN adulterer.
> 
> Come on, man... get your boots on.


She hid this meeting - I found out via the FB messages as it was happening and quickly deleted. She didn't pre-ok it with me.
First it was "met no one", then "bumped into". Finally "couldn't let him commit suicide" so she agreed.

Even having read TAM in the past, I wasn't prepared.


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## GusPolinski

Well, she knows that you're onto her now, so there's no harm in insisting that she re-enable FMI on her iPhone. This will reveal to her that you've been looking at her phone and email, so be prepared to spell out to her that any changes to unlock codes or passwords for either will mean divorce.

This may prompt her to pick up a burner phone, and a VAR is your best bet for catching that.

You might also look into pick up some sort of discrete (*cough* hidden) camera solution for the house.

Does your WW work outside of the home?


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## Zack-00

alexm - in most cases she didn't know I knew the passwords and so I hoped to provide a false sense of security, and in the FB message case that was true. Although she was still cautious as she immediately deleted.

I told her last time if there was "anything in the future she hides from me" she should consider it as her telling me she wants a divorce and I'll accommodate it. In fact that is what I planned on my return. Somehow I've talked myself out of immediate action - maybe they didn't meet and while the txt's were breaking the boundary I set I haven't filed. I am so goddamned frustrated with myself. If they met that night I can pull the trigger - not sure why I'm not with what I already know.


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## Zack-00

GusPolinski said:


> Well, she knows that you're into her now, so there's no harm in insisting that she re-enable FMI on her iPhone.
> 
> This may prompt her to pick up a burner phone, and a VAR is your best bet for catching that.


She left her phone out tonight - I re-enabled FMI and know the icloud pw.

I swore I would never consider a var again - if it came to that I would file, somehow I'm breaking my own boundaries. And I am just procrastinating...


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## GusPolinski

You should also insist that the FB account be reactivated, at which point you should change the password yourself... and not give it to her.

There's clearly something there that she doesn't want you to see.


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## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> She left her phone out tonight - I re-enabled FMI and know the icloud pw.
> 
> 
> 
> I swore I would never consider a var again - if it came to that I would file, somehow I'm breaking my own boundaries. And I am just procrastinating...



Yeah, but you likely took up that position because you refused to become a warden. I get that. And, were I in your position, I wouldn't bother w/ any of it -- I'd simply file for divorce.

But here you are, back in the same position again, and unable to take any sort of decisive action until you have definitive proof.

Well, that's how your going to get it.


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## Satya

Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

If she won't come clean at your request, hand over the phone and/or reactivate FB and show you everything, then get your ducks in a row. If she shows you and she's deleted things, you know her answer is a giant F U.

Get a lawyer, file for divorce. You're her husband, not her dad. Her scrambling to hide things shows that she is likely guilty of something. Let her go, she wants to do her own thing and she is not marriage material.


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## GusPolinski

Well said, @Satya!


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## alexm

GusPolinski said:


> Zack, the fact that you had to GUESS the unlock code to her iPhone doesn't bode well for you. Neither does your meek acceptance of the fact that she may start changing passwords soon.
> 
> Come on, man... did you set _any_ terms w/ respect to _any_ of these things the first time around?
> 
> Also, what kind of vehicle does your wife drive?


My ex wife had changed her passwords shortly before the marriage ended. At the time, I didn't think twice about it. Stupid me. Same password for her email for years - YEARS! Then she changes it. Said something about how her sister (an IT professional) suggested she change her password every few months for safety. I readily accepted this explanation, but mainly because when I realized her password was changed, my mind didn't even go there in the first place.

It does now. It doesn't mean that password changes mean anything, but it's most definitely a red flag, especially if one's spouse doesn't mention it, and had never done it before. Or better yet, if they're constantly doing it.

(btw, I wasn't snooping, we had plane tickets I had to print that were sent to her address, and she was downstairs at the time so I just went in to get them. "Invalid password". Huh? "Honey? Did you change your password?" Long silence, then she came up the stairs, and hovered over me after giving me the new one. Luckily for her, there was nothing in there (or nothing I saw, anyway... I've thought many times about that encounter since then...)


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## MattMatt

Polygraph.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alexm

Satya said:


> Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.


Oh my god, THIS.

Golden rule in marriage.


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## toonaive

Hicks said:


> Don't try to catch her for the past. Catch her in the future.
> 
> My recommendation though is if you are 99% sure she is cheating, the see a lawyer and start the divorce process. What's another 1%?


I would add to this, if you are in a state where alimony is at stake against infidelity, I would remain quiet. Get much more evidence. What you have is a lot of smoke. But! with previous, proven, infidelity, this smoke will lead to fire. She got spooked, and may cool this down a while. But, it will resurface again. She is most likely hiding something. How badly do you want the truth? She will never give it to you. Its hard, but you will need to play stupid for a while to get this. 

If infidelity is not a solid bar to alimony, then just file. She is playing you one way or the other.


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## ButtPunch

Zack-00 said:


> I told her last time if there was "anything in the future she hides from me" she should consider it as her telling me she wants a divorce and I'll accommodate it.


She's hiding stuff stick to your boundaries.


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## convert

GusPolinski said:


> You should also insist that the FB account be reactivated, at which point you should change the password yourself... and not give it to her.
> 
> There's clearly something there that she doesn't want you to see.


Gus is there a way to get deleted message from ones FB account?

I thought I read some where that it is possible.

maybe the standard evidence thread?


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## arbitrator

alexm said:


> My ex wife had changed her passwords shortly before the marriage ended. At the time, I didn't think twice about it. Stupid me. *Same password for her email for years - YEARS! Then she changes it.* Said something about how her sister (an IT professional) suggested she change her password every few months for safety. I readily accepted this explanation, but mainly because when I realized her password was changed, my mind didn't even go there in the first place.
> 
> It does now. It doesn't mean that password changes mean anything, but it's most definitely a red flag, especially if one's spouse doesn't mention it, and had never done it before. Or better yet, if they're constantly doing it.
> 
> (btw, I wasn't snooping, we had plane tickets I had to print that were sent to her address, and she was downstairs at the time so I just went in to get them. "Invalid password". Huh? "Honey? Did you change your password?" Long silence, then she came up the stairs, and hovered over me after giving me the new one. Luckily for her, there was nothing in there (or nothing I saw, anyway... I've thought many times about that encounter since then...)


*And don't be falling out of your chair if she subsequently decides to change her passwords yet again!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

convert said:


> Guess is there a way to get deleted message from ones FB account?
> 
> I thought I read some where that it is possible.
> 
> maybe the standard evidence thread?


It was once possible, but not anymore. That said, messages that have been "archived" will still be there.

And, unless I'm wrong, those messages can't be seen using the iOS or Android apps for FB/FB Messenger... you need to log into FB using a browser in order to view them.


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## ThePheonix

Zack-00 said:


> maybe they didn't meet and while the txt's were breaking the boundary I set I haven't filed. I am so goddamned frustrated with myself. If they met that night I can pull the trigger - not sure why I'm not with what I already know.


Here's the thing Dawg. Guys always come back saying the boundaries they set. When a woman is "into you" you don't set boundries for her; she sets boundaries for her. Why would you even entertain the idea of staying married to a woman you have to bird dog 24/7 to make sure she's not slipping around with another guy. Think about what that sez about her opinion of you if she looking for any opportunity to knife you in the back and be with another man.
Some of you always want to fight me when I say that women who cheat have lost romantic interest in their husbands and it will most likely never return. Even if it could, it would take some major changes to reverse what caused her to lose it to begin with. Simply setting down, singing the blues about how bad she done you, how she need to feel really, really bad about it, tell you everything she done, and follow your list of boundaries in the future, is not going to restore the requisites love and respect that makes her turn away from other men.
Again, I welcome the ladies to correct me on this.


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## Zack-00

Fb messages are gone. Last ones I saw from him were "please respond" on Sunday, then "let's go back to normal, I don't want to lose you as a friend" and her reply something like "not going to lose me as a friend. I have family issues i have to deal with" but were deleted before I could capture

I am thinking of asking for her phone with Fb login and posing as her. Message him and say "I'm stressing out, husband doesn't believe I was at home alone Saturday after friends house, what should I tell him? He may go talk to friends or confront you in your office if I don't come up with something good"

Any down side?


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## 2asdf2

MattMatt said:


> Polygraph.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not You too!!!:smile2:


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## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> Fb messages are gone. Last ones I saw from him were "please respond" on Sunday, then "let's go back to normal, I don't want to lose you as a friend" and her reply something like "not going to lose me as a friend. I have family issues i have to deal with" but were deleted before I could capture
> 
> I am thinking of asking for her phone with Fb login and posing as her. Message him and say "I'm stressing out, husband doesn't believe I was at home alone Saturday after friends house, what should I tell him? He may go talk to friends or confront you in your office if I don't come up with something good"
> 
> Any down side?


Not really, no.

That said, if you have the password for the e-mail account to which her FB account is linked, you can probably pull this off w/o even telling her.

That's what I'd do.

ETA: On second thought, this might not be possible, as it hinges on the idea that you could use the "Forgot your password?" function in order to reset the password prior to re-activating the account... which may not be possible.


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## Zack-00

Phoenix, makes sense.

My brother said I have to treat it like something died, he went through this a couple times. Guess I haven't let go yet and grieved.


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## alte Dame

This is exhausting, isn't it, Zack? All this worry and fear? And for what? The person who is supposed to have your back is lying to you and hiding things from you. Again. It's positively infuriating and humiliating and contemptible.

In my opinion, you should take a huge, deep breath and just let go of the fear. Your life won't end. Your kids will be OK. You'll be surprised at how relieved you actually feel once you make an affirmative decision not to take this crap anymore. Why should you take it? Why? Life is short and there's joy out there to be had. No one said that you don't get to partake in that joy.

You can pull the trigger now if you let go of the fear of changing something so big. 

FTR, the 'he needed someone to talk to about his divorce' excuse is textbook cheater. So are all the other things you're telling us.

Don't despair, though. Life can be good for you if you screw up the courage to take the first big step here. Be a strong man and take back your life. Tell her she is no longer wife material and that you are divorcing her.


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## Marduk

You're done. Sorry about that.

Put a smile on your face, ignore her, and lawyer up.


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## terrence4159

Sorry you are going thur this man. You are doing good and everyone here really does understand your hesitation to pull the plug. Hell I was in your same shoes 10 years ago. Wish tam was around then would have saved 4 months of her bs.

The reason people here are saying divorce her is we have been where you are at and know where this is going. She may never have stopped cheating just got way better at bidding it.

I would sit her down tonight and tell her that you 2 have 2 routes to take. Only 2! A quick easy divorce that saves your kids trama you 2 can do yourself a or a long nasty divorce that ruins your kids life's.

Tell her you are done with her lies you know exactly what happened when you went camping.... Maybe say PI as you are coughing. That you are done playing games with her and sharing her with other men. That you deserve someone who will be a good loving wife to you not a back stabbing liar.


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## G.J.

MattMatt said:


> Polygraph.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*If it hits the fan with out any more evidence coming to light *the fall back option from MattMatt can be used *after all other avenues have been tried* including *FULL OUT CONFRONTATION *telling her your filing for D first thing the next day unless she tells you how many time they have slept together as you have recovered txts she deleted etc. (yep lie)but don't go into content and don't say how many

Just keep telling her you want to make a go of it But you need her to tell you how many times or its D file tomorrow

D her anyway if you want after


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## tom67

Zack check out this thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/dealin...-who-grieving-over-ex-who-killed-himself.html
Now from the outside looking in what would you tell him?
For both you and Letterman this is about self respect.
Like alte said you will be relieved when you get this monkey off your back.
Your kids are watching you show them a strong father.:smile2:


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## 6301

Look it comes down to this. She cheated once before and you swallowed your pride and forgave her. She got another chance which is one more then she deserved, now she's at it again.

There's only so many times that you can be slapped in the face and what you need to do is rattle her cage by seeking a lawyer, filing, having her served and when she asks why just look at her and fire away and let her know that the trust is gone and she has herself to blame. 

Put it in her lap and let her do the nail biting, loss of sleep and wondering about the unknown for a change. The only she can see what she has to gain is by her seeing how much she has to lose. Her problem. She brought it on and now she owns it. Let her make the next move but if she did it once and she did it twice there isn't anything ov value to hold on to. You can still be a great dad and not have the excess baggage of her.


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## As'laDain

Barring the normal ways of finding out where someone has been with their personal devices, there are still some options..

ios - Is it possible to access a list of wifi networks my iPhone has used? - Ask Different

If she has iCloud Keychain enabled and you can log into her account, you can check the names of the networks against this:

https://wigle.net

It may give you some odd locations worth investigating. It will only show you what she has connected to, however. 


In the end, I probably wouldn't bother. You already know she is back to hiding stuff from you...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EnjoliWoman

Some wireless service providers have parental controls that let you track the phone location even when iphone find me is disabled. Check your provider's website and look at parental control options.


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## happy as a clam

ThePheonix said:


> Why would you even entertain the idea of staying married to a woman you have to bird dog 24/7 to make sure she's not slipping around with another guy. Think about what that sez about her opinion of you if she looking for any opportunity to knife you in the back and be with another man.


^ ^ ^

THIS. :iagree:

Why would you even entertain the idea of being with a partner who you have to snoop on 24/7?

Time to pack it up, move along.


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## alexm

Zack-00 said:


> Fb messages are gone. Last ones I saw from him were "please respond" on Sunday, then "let's go back to normal, I don't want to lose you as a friend" and her reply something like "not going to lose me as a friend. I have family issues i have to deal with" but were deleted before I could capture


I just want to take a sec and be devil's advocate and throw this at you:

"Please respond" indicates that she didn't respond, perhaps to his message from the night before. Maybe she WAS at home, sleeping, like she said.

Is it possible that, while out that evening, OM put the moves on her, she resisted, went home, and shut off her electronics to avoid HIM, not you?

I'm just throwing that out there.

Even if that is the case, she's still hiding it from you, when she really should be forthcoming. If this is how it went down, she should know better, and she should have told you exactly what happened. "He hit on me, I wanted nothing to do with it, he messaged me a few times, so I shut my phone down to ignore him".


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## phillybeffandswiss

Zack, you were kind of unclear with Gus' question.

Have you downloaded her FB archive? No, not archived messages, but the full history profile download zip?


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## Zack-00

alte Dame, I know this to be true. I appreciate all the other responses as well. I have the caretaker personality issue I believe, from reading other posts. At this point I fear letdown to my kids more than anything personal like loneliness.

We have been together for basically ever, high school. I am letting her raise our kids for 50% of the time, and I lose 50%, I will get killed with alimony, etc.

No kids and we would be divorced the last time this happened. Yes, I have read all the differing "staying for the kids" debates. So far I have chosen to stay.

/ramble off


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## Plan 9 from OS

alexm said:


> I just want to take a sec and be devil's advocate and throw this at you:
> 
> "Please respond" indicates that she didn't respond, perhaps to his message from the night before. Maybe she WAS at home, sleeping, like she said.
> 
> Is it possible that, while out that evening, OM put the moves on her, she resisted, went home, and shut off her electronics to avoid HIM, not you?
> 
> I'm just throwing that out there.
> 
> Even if that is the case, she's still hiding it from you, when she really should be forthcoming. If this is how it went down, she should know better, and she should have told you exactly what happened. "He hit on me, I wanted nothing to do with it, he messaged me a few times, so I shut my phone down to ignore him".


It could be possible. But if she did this to him before, wouldn't the most logical thing to do for her is to state that from the get go? Why hide it - especially if he told her when the R'd the last time that any more secrets is an automatic divorce?


----------



## Zack-00

Philly, I havent. I am pretty technical, does it contain more and can be parsed?


----------



## Zack-00

Alexm, that is what my mind is trying to believe and was, benefit of doubt. Then I saw that she disabled find my iPhone after, and it doesn't make sense to me. I haven't asked her why yet. I bet she says "you are paranoid and probably tracking me". But so.what, I can't reason that out (disabling).


----------



## justastatistic

Was this "friend of her best friend's husband" at the dinner also? Was it the 4 of them? I'm not clear but if it was, she has accomplices helping her cheat.

Problem one: Is she a psychiatrist, because no way should she be meeting any male to counsel him about a breakup, and that suicide story is bull****. Why would he even be calling her to talk about that in the first place? Right there you know there is either already a relationship or he is pursuing her and she likes it. Seriously, why would she want to console him about problems in his marriage or PROBLEMS WITH IS AFFAIR PARTNER? Please.

Problem two: The messages say "Let's go BACK to normal, I don't want to lose you as a friend." That means they became more than friends in one way or another. She knows you are on to them and cooled it.

If you don't address these issues with her, if she hasn't had full blown sex with him she probably will. If she has, she will do it again since you are no taking charge of this situation. 

If you want to save this marriage (I personally would be on the fence about it) you need total transparency from her and complete no personal contact with not only this guy, but all men when she is alone. She obviously has poor boundaries and these situations are going to keep happening unless and until she improves her boundaries. Then you need counseling because she is seeking attention from other men, and therefore something is missing from the marriage. Maybe that's something that can be fixed, maybe not, but at least you'll know.

If you confront and she bs's you, divorce her. Marriage is hard enough without having to deal with this crap.


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> Philly, I havent. I am pretty technical, does it contain more and can be parsed?


Yes.

Re-enabling the account would also allow you to look through her FB location history (if she has it enabled).

Check this out...

https://www.facebook.com/help/529112570539542


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> alte Dame, I know this to be true. I appreciate all the other responses as well. I have the caretaker personality issue I believe, from reading other posts. At this point I fear letdown to my kids more than anything personal like loneliness.
> 
> We have been together for basically ever, high school. I am letting her raise our kids for 50% of the time, and I lose 50%, *I will get killed with alimony*, etc.
> 
> No kids and we would be divorced the last time this happened. Yes, I have read all the differing "staying for the kids" debates. So far I have chosen to stay.
> 
> /ramble off


Where do you live, by the way?


----------



## justastatistic

OH and that timeline from Saturday? She turned her phone off at dinner (you can't verify anything through them because they may very well be facilitating), saw his fb message at 10:28, turned her phone on to see if you called because she was making plans and needed to get any night-night hubby calls out of the way, gave you that story, then disabled her location finder at 10:38 so she could go out without you tracking her.


----------



## alexm

Zack-00 said:


> Alexm, that is what my mind is trying to believe and was, benefit of doubt. Then I saw that she disabled find my iPhone after, and it doesn't make sense to me. I haven't asked her why yet. I bet she says "you are paranoid and probably tracking me". But so.what, I can't reason that out (disabling).


So you and I have the same personality. Being nice, and giving the benefit of the doubt to people is a good quality to have. (much better than being jaded, imo).

But it also leads people like you and I to be walked all over.

A healthy balance of the two is ideal, obviously.

If I were you, right now, I'd be talking to her about this. Why was your tracking turned off? Especially if you were at home? What was OM wanting you to respond to?

The answers likely won't matter, TBH. She'll probably lie, if she's hiding something. If she tells the truth, you likely won't believe her. But at least you get those questions out there.

So, regardless of how she responds, you need (NEED) to emphatically tell her (not ASK) that you have full and unfettered access to her electronic devices, her passwords, her accounts, her emails - everything. Period. No discussion. Furthermore, that she never disable her tracking again, for any reason. There really IS no reason to disable it, ever. Privacy? From whom?

There also needs to be no contact with OM, ever again, for any reason whatsoever. If she fights you on this ("But he's suicidal!!") then she needs to understand that this is not her, or your, problem, and that whatever he may or may not do is not at ALL her responsibility. If she truly is that naive (which I doubt she is), then she needs to be told that he is manipulating her, using a horrible excuse in the meantime.

But the likelihood is that she knows EXACTLY what she's doing - enjoying his attention and the fact that somebody "needs" her, who isn't her kids or her husband.

And the sad thing is that d-bags like this know how to manipulate people in this way. He knows damn well that her personality will respond to this type of manipulation, like a dog does to treats.

Furthermore, he knows damn well that her husband is a pushover, and that he's in no real danger of messing with another man's wife. This is, for better or worse, how some guys just are. I am one. It takes a LOT for me to get even remotely threatening. Some dudes have zero patience, and have no qualms barging in, fists flying. But we aren't those dudes for one reason or another. Your wife knows this as well.

So we tend to be left with one option - set the tone for how things will be with our partners - and that is okay, and often effective. Right now, she does what she wants and has no respect for you, or your boundaries within this marriage. This is often just as bad as cheating, imo. She may very well have screwed around on you the one time, and you've reconciled, and she's been clean ever since. But she's still pushing those boundaries, or outright breaking them. And that's if they even exist in the first place (which it appears not).


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> Alexm, that is what my mind is trying to believe and was, benefit of doubt. Then I saw that she disabled find my iPhone after, and it doesn't make sense to me. I haven't asked her why yet. I bet she says "you are paranoid and probably tracking me". But so.what, I can't reason that out (disabling).


"And why would you have a problem with me tracking you? Have you been somewhere that you shouldn't have been? Have you been _with_ someone with whom you shouldn't have been?

"Oh... that's right. You were out late with a known adulterer and didn't want me to know about it, which is why you trickle-truthed me when I called you on it.

"And not just _any_ adulterer, mind you, but one with whom you were exchanging FB messages along the lines of...

Him: '...we should go back to normal because I don't want to lose you as a friend...'

You: '...you won't lose me as a friend but I have some family stuff to sort out...'

(or whatever it was that they said)

"So, given all of this, I'd now like to give you the opportunity to prove to me that I CAN trust you.

"You can start by handing me your phone and re-enabling your Facebook account.

"Right. Now."

ETA: *cough* Make sure you have a VAR hidden -- or in your pocket, whatever... just don't let her see it -- and running when you do this.

You'll probably want to have already deployed a VAR in her car by this point as well.


----------



## Satya

ThePheonix said:


> When a woman is "into you" you don't set boundries for her; she sets boundaries for her.


:iagree:


----------



## Nucking Futs

alexm said:


> So you and I have the same personality. Being nice, and giving the benefit of the doubt to people is a good quality to have. (much better than being jaded, imo).
> 
> But it also leads people like you and I to be walked all over.
> 
> A healthy balance of the two is ideal, obviously.
> 
> If I were you, right now, I'd be talking to her about this. Why was your tracking turned off? Especially if you were at home? What was OM wanting you to respond to?
> 
> The answers likely won't matter, TBH. She'll probably lie, if she's hiding something. If she tells the truth, you likely won't believe her. But at least you get those questions out there.
> 
> *So, regardless of how she responds, you need (NEED) to emphatically tell her (not ASK) that you have full and unfettered access to her electronic devices, her passwords, her accounts, her emails - everything. Period. No discussion. Furthermore, that she never disable her tracking again, for any reason. There really IS no reason to disable it, ever. Privacy? From whom?
> 
> There also needs to be no contact with OM, ever again, for any reason whatsoever. If she fights you on this ("But he's suicidal!!") then she needs to understand that this is not her, or your, problem, and that whatever he may or may not do is not at ALL her responsibility. If she truly is that naive (which I doubt she is), then she needs to be told that he is manipulating her, using a horrible excuse in the meantime.
> *
> But the likelihood is that she knows EXACTLY what she's doing - enjoying his attention and the fact that somebody "needs" her, who isn't her kids or her husband.
> 
> And the sad thing is that d-bags like this know how to manipulate people in this way. He knows damn well that her personality will respond to this type of manipulation, like a dog does to treats.
> 
> Furthermore, he knows damn well that her husband is a pushover, and that he's in no real danger of messing with another man's wife. This is, for better or worse, how some guys just are. I am one. It takes a LOT for me to get even remotely threatening. Some dudes have zero patience, and have no qualms barging in, fists flying. But we aren't those dudes for one reason or another. Your wife knows this as well.
> 
> So we tend to be left with one option - set the tone for how things will be with our partners - and that is okay, and often effective. Right now, she does what she wants and has no respect for you, or your boundaries within this marriage. This is often just as bad as cheating, imo. She may very well have screwed around on you the one time, and you've reconciled, and she's been clean ever since. But she's still pushing those boundaries, or outright breaking them. And that's if they even exist in the first place (which it appears not).


This is a conversation you have with her after you've filed and she's been served and is begging for another chance. Not before.


----------



## badmemory

GusPolinski said:


> I'd now like to give you the opportunity to prove to me that I CAN trust you.
> 
> "You can start by handing me your phone and re-enabling your Facebook account.
> 
> "Right. Now."


Good one Gus. I'll have to remember that one.


----------



## weightlifter

This is recent enough, plain var in the car may work. That and one in her talking spot.

Maybe do the scare and leave technique.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Zack-00 said:


> Philly, I haven't. I am pretty technical, does it contain more and can be parsed?


Yes as Gus has shown.

Also, be prepared, it is VERY comprehensive. You may find other hings you do not like.


----------



## life_huppens

Zack-00 said:


> alte Dame, I know this to be true. I appreciate all the other responses as well. I have the caretaker personality issue I believe, from reading other posts. At this point I fear letdown to my kids more than anything personal like loneliness.
> 
> We have been together for basically ever, high school. I am letting her raise our kids for 50% of the time, and I lose 50%, I will get killed with alimony, etc.
> 
> No kids and we would be divorced the last time this happened. Yes, I have read all the differing "staying for the kids" debates. *So far I have chosen to stay.
> *
> /ramble off


Well everyone, this is what decision he have made. I guess going further would be futile.


----------



## Dyokemm

OP,

You know what you need to do here.

But you seem scared to even take the first basic steps, because you already know where they are going to lead.

The very fact your WW is reacting by trying to hide info and appears very paranoid about how you are acting is really all you need to know.

She knows she is busted....that FB response to him about family problems to work out clearly shows that she is aware of this fact.

Stop delaying the inevitable.

Start by calling your friends, the couple, and verifying her visit there and who was present.


----------



## GusPolinski

badmemory said:


> Good one Gus. I'll have to remember that one.


By the way, how've you been?

Any updates for your thread?


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

I remember a friend of mine telling me "why are you asking her questions that you already know the answer too?"


----------



## Lostinthought61

Zack....she has cheated before and you don't trust her now (for valid reasons)...so this is where the rubber hits the road....let's see if you have the balls to carry this through...sit her her down...and basically tell her she has tow and only two choices....either she maintains complete and utter transparency...all passwords, no deleting any messengers ....keep GPS on the phone at ALL times....you know where she is at all TIMES....or you divorce her ass....and if she fails the first part then you go right to Divorce. you need to drive the fear of hell....no arguments, no fights, you just walk away...she is either completely in this marriage or not.


----------



## farsidejunky

Why go that far?

It is over. File. Don't look back.


----------



## 3putt

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> I remember a friend of mine telling me "why are you asking her questions that you already know the answer too?"


Looking back, it's always so easy to see. Hindsight doth be a b!tch.


----------



## the guy

Here's my thoughts...

You had a confrontation, it sounds like an effective confrontation, but yet she takes another risk(even more so since she was already busted) and you catch her again.

Even at a higher risk she continues the disrespect (taking an even bigger risk).

The way I see it is she has made a very clear choice in who she wants to take a risk with....and it aint with her husband!

So in short your old lady had 2 risks , 1) seeing if this marriage works or 2) getting busted again.

She took the risk with the OM and she knew the consequences.

In my case I made it very clear what the consequences will be if I even *think* my old lady is phucking around again.

I have to say your old lady aint the sharpest tack on the board.....I mean she risked it all the second time around and what is she getting out of it....maybe "he forgave me once, he will forgive me again"...

PHUCK THAT!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Dyokemm

Xenote,

If I'm understanding Zack's history as he's related it.....he has already laid the law down like that after her first A several years ago.

And now he's dealing with a WW who is once again pushing the boundaries of acceptable behavior he has set.....basically taking the gamble that he will never actually carry through on consequences for crossing those red lines.

If I understand what he is going through, Zack KNOWS in his head that he now has to follow through on the consequences he told her would happen if she ever started this crap again.....but he is really struggling emotionally with it because he still loves her.

Hence, he has not really taken any action to find out for sure if she has engaged in another A....not even calling the friends/couple.....part of him doesn't really want to know because he knows what he will have to do.

Basically, he is at the point where he has to file for D because she is a serial cheat because the only other option would be to totally bury his head in the sand and let her do whatever she wants.

Zack....I think you have too much self-respect to do that.

You know what has to be done here.

I know its painful and really sucks to file and kick her to the curb.....but the alternative will be even worse for you emotionally in the long run.

As much as it sucks....you need to do what is necessary ASAP.


----------



## Zack-00

I was traveling for work since my first posts and haven't had a chance to respond. I spoke a lot with my brother who went through this twice with now exw's.

I am verifying with the friends then with the OM. I think I have successfully cleared the mental hurdle, all business now. I need her to get the job she is looking at to reduce my financial risk with alimony. I am also thinking hard about the parenting plan and how I want to position that.

Is there a chance that I can't verify everything? Likely. 

Is there a chance that I stay to see how she acts (facebok, etc.) without me telling her. Possibly. If so, will I be here again in 12-24 months? I am a gambler and would not bet on my odds of success.

The difference is that now I believe my kids, and me, will certainly be OK without her, possibly better. And if it looks like I can get more than half custody it will accelerate that. 

I appreciate the thoughtful responses and consideration. Even though this site is anonymous, valid and necessay criticism can be difficult.

I'll update as I learn more and take additional action.


----------



## Zack-00

Xenote, did that before, and see below, I had the papers ready to file.

The guy - I know, I can't reason out why. She doesn't love (or respect, admire, whatever) me. I am far from a deadbeat, very financially successful. I'm not a huggy/touchy personality though, and there is a definite affection level mismatch.

The one before was a dead end. Zero reason for that one. At least this guy makes a ton but culturally is a 180 and zero long term chance.

Knowing the risk - why? Hates her life and doesn't care I guess. The previous one I genuinely thought "she doesn't want the children, etc. guilt of leaving the family so do something he has to leave me over, sabotage" it was that ridiculous. But then when I saw the lawyer, told her, got the financials, etc., she begged me not to go, "I'll do anything". At that time I did not want to leave the kids with her half the time if she could make such stupid decisions. I should have made a run at majority/primary custody. If I was vicious I could probably engineer that but I couldn't do that to the kids, they do love her.


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> Xenote, did that before, and see below, I had the papers ready to file.
> 
> The guy - I know, I can't reason out why. She doesn't love (or respect, admire, whatever) me. I am far from a deadbeat, very financially successful. I'm not a huggy/touchy personality though, and there is a definite affection level mismatch.
> 
> The one before was a dead end. Zero reason for that one. At least this guy makes a ton but culturally is a 180 and zero long term chance.
> 
> Knowing the risk - why? Hates her life and doesn't care I guess. The previous one I genuinely thought "she doesn't want the children, etc. guilt of leaving the family so do something he has to leave me over, sabotage" it was that ridiculous. *But then when I saw the lawyer, told her, got the financials, etc., she begged me not to go, "I'll do anything".* At that time I did not want to leave the kids with her half the time if she could make such stupid decisions. I should have made a run at majority/primary custody. If I was vicious I could probably engineer that but I couldn't do that to the kids, they do love her.


And this is _precisely_ when you should've put some solid (and non-negotiable) expectations in place w/ respect to transparency. For example, you should've NEVER had to "guess" her phone's unlock code, any of her passwords, etc, and she should've known that any situation in which you'd be forced to do so would've immediately brought about the end of your marriage.


----------



## Zack-00

Gus, that was in place that is the expectation it really is just a matter of me executing on it


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> Gus, that was in place that is the expectation it really is just a matter of me executing on it


Well, it's time to put up or shut up. After all, a boundary unenforced is a boundary disrespected. And, for as long as you refuse to enforce the boundary, the disrespect will continue... which, of course, will lead to more and more boundaries being broken. That said, it seems pretty clear that this has already occurred.

When did you first notice that the phone's unlock code had been changed?

Also, it's an iPhone, right? Are you looking to run data recovery utilities against it in order to retrieve any deleted texts, call history, etc?


----------



## Zack-00

Let me clarify the password. I always knew them she did not know that I knew them. It gave her a false sense of security. She did not take it for granted tho, still deleted immediately or as son as she checked so I missed quite a bit from fb. I had to guess her phone because she had just changed it that night. She would have told me had I asked and I didn't have an immediate tell me upon change expectation.

I don't want to bird dog 24/7 as someone said, who the hell wants to live like that. 

The conclusion may be inevitable. I'm not itching, at all, to go find someone new, so other than making it final, I have a few things that need to happen to benefit me longer term. It has been a total of 25 years together, a few weeks will be nothing.


----------



## Zack-00

She knew I could check txt against billing so she used fb exclusively. Phone pw I found late at night when I checked. I think 2 nights ago.

I agree that someone needs to want to respect a boundary or there really is no boundary. I have all the reason I need. I just have to put up or shut up as you say. 

Hiding stuff clearly crossed the boundary, just that alone. But I am hesitating with just that. If I knew they met alone that weekend I would have 0 issues leaving.

Wishy-washy, yes. I'm guessing ruthless people don't even bother coming to this site, just us pontificators.


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> Let me clarify the password. I always knew them she did not know that I knew them. It gave her a false sense of security. She did not take it for granted tho, still deleted immediately or as son as she checked so I missed quite a bit from fb. I had to guess her phone because she had just changed it that night. She would have told me had I asked and I didn't have an immediate tell me upon change expectation.
> 
> *I don't want to bird dog 24/7 as someone said, who the hell wants to live like that.*
> 
> The conclusion may be inevitable. I'm not itching, at all, to go find someone new, so other than making it final, I have a few things that need to happen to benefit me longer term. It has been a total of 25 years together, a few weeks will be nothing.


And you shouldn't, IMO. You should simply file for divorce. After all, you KNOW what's going on.

But right now you're stuck hoping that some damning piece of evidence will somehow magically fall into your lap so that you can avoid going into warden mode. Be real. That's not likely to happen. And, though it's conceivable that your wife might confess of her own volition at some point, _that won't happen until *AFTER* she's got all her ducks in a row._ Additionally, her comment to OM about having "family stuff to work out" (or whatever it was that she said) speaks to notion that she's already got something in the works.

ACT.


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> She knew I could check txt against billing so she used fb exclusively. Phone pw I found late at night when I checked. I think 2 nights ago.
> 
> I agree that someone needs to want to respect a boundary or there really is no boundary. I have all the reason I need. I just have to put up or shut up as you say.
> 
> Hiding stuff clearly crossed the boundary, just that alone. But I am hesitating with just that. *If I knew they met alone that weekend I would have 0 issues leaving.*
> 
> Wishy-washy, yes. I'm guessing ruthless people don't even bother coming to this site, just us pontificators.


You already know that!!!


----------



## Zack-00

I suspect, I don't know. Not magic evidence. If I don't learn anything from the friends or OM, then I have to decide based on what I know. 

I'm not too worried about her preparing, other than draining 1 account she can't do much damage.


----------



## Zack-00

I suspect, I don't know. Not magic evidence. If I don't learn anything from the friends or OM, then I have to decide based on what I know. 

I'm not too worried about her preparing, other than draining 1 account she can't do much damage.


----------



## jerry123

Deleting things, using FB so you can't track her doings....= experienced cheater (Serial cheater) or she's getting coached.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> I suspect, I don't know. Not magic evidence. *If I don't learn anything from the friends or OM*, then I have to decide based on what I know.
> 
> I'm not too worried about her preparing, other than draining 1 account she can't do much damage.


:slap:


----------



## JohnA

The dif between a nice adult and a good adult: a good adult can and will be ruthless when they do not want to be. 

Cheating is always on the cheater. Hundreds of good reasons to end a marriage. In which case it is on the person who needs to change.
Do not beat yourself up over a cheater. They are weak !! Beat yourself over how you handle it. This is how others will judge your manhood.

Set an example for your children by not being a doormat!


----------



## OldWolf57

Z, I see you got this, move as you see fit.




Good luck and God Bless.


----------



## Zack-00

Thanks Gus, and everyone. I appreciate the time invested reading and replying.


----------



## Chaparral

BTW, how is she acting around you now?


----------



## Zack-00

Extra nice, intimate, etc. Were it this way all the time...

She is pouring it on like last time. Watching me close to gauge my mood, expressions, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

Zack,

She knew she was busted....but you haven't said or done anything yet.

She is confused as h*ll right now.....trying to get any sign from your reactions to her about what you are up to.

Are you biding your time?

Investigating (but of course she hasn't heard anything from the couple or POS that you have contacted them at all)?

Giving her the benefit of the doubt?

Expect her to change her attitude and approach towards you once you finally start to take action.


----------



## Zack-00

Mostly biding my time. She has the girls with her sister (zero chance she skips out), so I am on a fishing trip with a casino close by, meeting my brother and his wife to play 21.

I jacked the password on the tMO account so have to wait till tomorrow to correlate calls with timing last saturday (she'll get an email if I reset it).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Zack-00 said:


> Extra nice, intimate, etc. Were it this way all the time...
> 
> She is pouring it on like last time. Watching me close to gauge my mood, expressions, etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Acting guilty as sin.

And your reaction to her sucking up? Is she acting worried you're not buying it?


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> Mostly biding my time. She has the girls with her sister (zero chance she skips out), so I am on a fishing trip with a casino close by, meeting my brother and his wife to play 21.
> 
> I jacked the password on the tMO account so have to wait till tomorrow to correlate calls with timing last saturday (she'll get an email if I reset it).


Too bad you couldn't get a VAR planted at her sister's house.


----------



## Zack-00

GusPolinski said:


> Too bad you couldn't get a VAR planted at her sister's house.


Would have been gold.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

You know... there was a guy here a while (@DevastatedDad, I think) that jailbroke his wife's iPhone and then installed an app that allowed him to remotely (and transparently) enable voice recording on her iPhone. In fact, that's how he was able to get definitive and irrefutable proof that she was indeed involved in a PA... he recorded her having sex w/ the OM in her office.

Ironically enough, I believe that she was a marriage counselor.


----------



## Zack-00

Hmm, new iphone.

Would have worked last weekend. I think she put the kibosh on this guy for a while, re-enabled fb but blocked him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> Hmm, new iphone.
> 
> Would have worked last weekend. I think she put the kibosh on this guy for a while, re-enabled fb but blocked him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unless I'm mistaken, I believe that there is a jailbreak available for the latest version of iOS.

Also, who is your wireless carrier... T-Mobile? Do you still have her old phone? If so, it'd cost you maybe 10-20 bucks a month to use it to open a new line, at which point you could basically configure the old phone to act as a GPS (and, if jailbroken, possibly a remote VAR as well) for her vehicle. Of course you'd have to find a good place to hide the phone in her vehicle. You'd also have to find a way to either keep it charged or retrieve it regularly so that you can charge it and then put it back. (I'd run data recovery against the old phone before doing anything w/ it, though.)

What kind of vehicle does your wife drive? If it's a recent GM product, it should have OnStar in it, which means that you can use their FamilyLink feature as a GPS. You can even configure automated vehicle location reporting. Should cost a minimum of about 25 bucks a month to do this, BTW.


----------



## Dyokemm

" I think she put the kibosh on this guy for a while, re-enabled fb but blocked him."

You can bet money on this.....she KNOWS she got caught with her hand in the cookie jar.


----------



## tom67

GusPolinski said:


> Unless I'm mistaken, I believe that there is a jailbreak available for the latest version of iOS.
> 
> Also, who is your wireless carrier... T-Mobile? Do you still have her old phone? If so, it'd cost you maybe 10-20 bucks a month to use it to open a new line, at which point you could basically configure the old phone to act as a GPS (and, if jailbroken, possibly a remote VAR as well) for her vehicle. Of course you'd have to find a good place to hide the phone in her vehicle. You'd also have to find a way to either keep it charged or retrieve it regularly so that you can charge it and then put it back. (I'd run data recovery against the old phone before doing anything w/ it, though.)
> 
> What kind of vehicle does your wife drive? If it's a recent GM product, it should have OnStar in it, which means that you can use their FamilyLink feature as a GPS. You can even configure automated vehicle location reporting. Should cost a minimum of about 25 bucks a month to do this, BTW.


Dude i'm an android kind of guy but what does that have to do with the White Sox winning tonight:grin2:
NOTHING
You are here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq7pxUgjLz0


----------



## OldWolf57

Yep, sucking up.
you have all you need from her actions.
Seems, she just can't stand to be told what she can't do, and will find ways to break it.

You know she will cheat down, so this time, she thought she had a smarter ap, because he has a big office.


----------



## jerry123

Zack-00 said:


> Extra nice, intimate, etc. Were it this way all the time...
> 
> She is pouring it on like last time. Watching me close to gauge my mood, expressions, etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Very important question...

Before you were on to her, was she like this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zack-00

No. This is guilt and giving me an incentive to stay.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Zack-00 said:


> No. This is guilt and giving me an incentive to stay.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How do you determine if its guilt or misdirection?:whip::whip:


----------



## Dyokemm

Well Zack,

You KNOW what you have to do here.

Don't be swayed here by her trying to be sweet and nice....don't decide to just let this slide since she suddenly seems to have become the perfect W again, loving and transparent.

If you rugsweep this, your WW will take away the lesson that you will NEVER hold her accountable....and your situation will become exponentially worse.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Zack-00 said:


> *re-enabled fb but blocked him.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ah yes..... Very sneaky and smart. Sorry, she knows what she is doing or being coached.


----------



## aine

Zack-00 said:


> She hid this meeting - I found out via the FB messages as it was happening and quickly deleted. She didn't pre-ok it with me.
> First it was "met no one", then "bumped into". Finally "couldn't let him commit suicide" so she agreed.
> 
> Even having read TAM in the past, I wasn't prepared.



She's most definitely cheating, file for divorce. This is no way to live, 'checking up' on on wife who already cheated on you. You deserve a woman whom you can trust.


----------



## As'laDain

if you are really tech savvy, you could try a man in the middle and/or evil twin attack...

look up the vulnerabilities of wifi if you want to know more.


----------



## Zack-00

So, finally confronted her with the email from when she disabled findmyiphone.

Correction: the "hey, where r u" was the following night, not the night she disabled.

She lied at first about "messing with my settings" and some other bs. Then I said next story is the last so take your time. 

Here is where it gets weird. She said she turned it off so I couldn't track her, and that she went to a club with friends from her school (getting a trade degree, all women). She had a drink, danced with 1 person, then came home. 

Weird 2: there are no, zero, txts or calls after 4:30pm except for when she called me at 10:30pm. I know she wants to keep things off her billing so I can't see, but she would not go to a club without checking to see that her friends are there or make sure they are going??

She was incredibly distraught when I came home. Wanting to meet me in private before I got to the house so we weren't talking in front of our kids. In fact the level at which she was acting and speaking: she didn't want to lose me, she would do anything, loves me now than anything, and then finally begging seemed beyond her usual theatrical drama. I don't think it was warranted if it was just for lying to me about going out with friends. 

So, is this just a pseudo-innocent mis-direction attempt to throw me off thinking she met OM, did she met him there (I really doubt that, he would just want her alone), or did she ONS?


Yeah I am still here, haven't just filed yet.


----------



## GusPolinski

OK, now I'm confused.

Anyway, have her explain her additional correspondence w/ OM.

VAR, VAR, VAR, VAR, and VAR.

Oh, and VAR.


----------



## brooklynAnn

I find it weird that someone who did nothing wrong is now pleading and begging to save her marriage. Don't you find that strange?

Makes me question what did she do exactly to create such a strong emotional response. 

Take Gus advice, start tracking her and use a VAR.

Start gather evidence.


----------



## Zack-00

By other correspondence you mean the getting back to normal, and stay friends comments? She just claims no idea. 

VAR is in the car, but I am not optimistic unless she calls family or friends and reveals something. I strongly doubt it will be any OM conversations.


----------



## GusPolinski

Then it's time to provide her w/ the motivation to make some phone calls...

"You know... I think I'll call OM and see what he has to say..."

Do this when you KNOW she's in the car.


----------



## happy as a clam

GusPolinski said:


> Then it's time to provide her w/ the motivation to make some phone calls...
> 
> "You know... I think I'll call OM and see what he has to say..."
> 
> Do this when you KNOW she's in the car.


Yep! Also tell her you're going to talk to her friends who were supposedly out with her that night. This will send her scrambling to start calling them all.

*Do it right before she's walking out the door on her way to work.* Within one minute of leaving the driveway, the phone calls will be flowing.


----------



## jerry123

Zack-00 said:


> By other correspondence you mean the getting back to normal, and stay friends comments? She just claims no idea.
> 
> VAR is in the car, but I am not optimistic unless she calls family or friends and reveals something. I strongly doubt it will be any OM conversations.


If I remember, she knows you can check every call log or phone calls. 

Thing is, there are apps that give free calls that can't be tracked. So VAR might reveal something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

get an ezoom GPS and put it in your car.

oh and in case Gus did not emphasize it enough.

VAR VAR VAR


----------



## Zack-00

She said she was going to see a band we know. Problem is, the band didn't play there that night, but the night before. Me - How did they sound, did you talk to Joe. Her - no, they sounded like normal.

Before she left I asked her who she met there, hesitation at first, then she threw out a few names. I told her I would come in and just casually ask "how did you like the band last saturday" - an indirect way to confirm she was there with my W. Her immediate response was "I'll just move out". I asked why, this was just an innocent way to confirm.

Then asked her to confirm where OM worked, just so I can let him know he is not welcome around my W anymore and to never contact her again. Her response was "He isn't going to meet with you" - to which I replied "I think if I am in his office, say I am Mr. X, husband to Mrs. X, he'll come out and see me."

Then she left.

Hope the VAR works.


----------



## manfromlamancha

At this stage I would say not red, but deep scarlet flags everywhere!

This is over and done! She cheated ! You caught her and now she is really struggling on the hook!

Main question now is (since in your gut you know that she cheated) what do you want to do now ?


----------



## ButtPunch

UGGH

Stick a fork in it.

Sorry bro


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> She said she was going to see a band we know. Problem is, the band didn't play there that night, but the night before. Me - How did they sound, did you talk to Joe. Her - no, they sounded like normal.
> 
> Before she left I asked her who she met there, hesitation at first, then she threw out a few names. I told her I would come in and just casually ask "how did you like the band last saturday" - an indirect way to confirm she was there with my W. Her immediate response was "I'll just move out". I asked why, this was just an innocent way to confirm.
> 
> Then asked her to confirm where OM worked, just so I can let him know he is not welcome around my W anymore and to never contact her again. Her response was "He isn't going to meet with you" - to which I replied "I think if I am in his office, say I am Mr. X, husband to Mrs. X, he'll come out and see me."
> 
> Then she left.
> 
> Hope the VAR works.


Well, you've got your answer. She's willing to reconcile, but only as long as you're willing to blindly take her at her word.

It's time to file. After all, you used a VAR the first time around, right? And she's aware of that? If so, it might not yield much this time around.


----------



## Zack-00

GusPolinski said:


> Well, you've got your answer. She's willing to reconcile, but only as long as you're willing to blindly take her at her word.
> 
> It's time to file. After all, you used a VAR the first time around, right? And she's aware of that? If so, it might not yield much this time around.


I never actually needed to use it last time. She never found it, but she found the receipt digging through my work bag a while later so she knows it is likely now.

She called and gave me the name and number of another classmate who would vouch that she was there. I told her that was no good, she is going to say whatever for you, but the actual conversation may be on the VAR if she doesn't search and find it first.

Of the original 4 she told me were there, none actually were. That whole story was a lie.

So, tell that story to hide something worse. Actually the story wasn't bad off-the-cuff, messed up on the band date...


I need to start another thread, how in the hell were you able to trust your next SO and not freak them out (and yourself) with surveillance...


----------



## farsidejunky

You don't spy unless there are red flags. If you can't tell the difference, you work on healing yourself because you are not ready for a post divorce LTR.


----------



## GusPolinski

farsidejunky said:


> You don't spy unless there are red flags. If you can't tell the difference, you work on healing yourself because you are not ready for a post divorce LTR.


Indeed.

Additionally, if your spouse is behaving in a manner that doesn't engender trust, then there's no use in attempting to extend it.


----------



## happy as a clam

*"I'll just move out"...*?????

:wtf:

Zack, please tell me there is NO DOUBT left in your mind that she was unfaithful to you after THAT comment???

NO ONE (and I mean NO ONE) says that unless they know what they did and what is coming down the pipeline. Time to pay the piper, Wife!

We have given you all the pertinent advice we can. It's up to you what to do with it.



_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kristin2349

Zack-00 said:


> I never actually needed to use it last time. She never found it, but she found the receipt digging through my work bag a while later so she knows it is likely now.
> 
> She called and gave me the name and number of another classmate who would vouch that she was there. I told her that was no good, she is going to say whatever for you, but the actual conversation may be on the VAR if she doesn't search and find it first.
> 
> Of the original 4 she told me were there, none actually were. That whole story was a lie.
> 
> So, tell that story to hide something worse. Actually the story wasn't bad off-the-cuff, messed up on the band date...
> 
> 
> *I need to start another thread, how in the hell were you able to trust your next SO and not freak them out (and yourself) with surveillance...*



Umm, you are getting way ahead of yourself. You haven't done the logical next step. Focus on getting through your divorce. This marriage is done, she is a remorseless cheater. 

Her "threat" of "I'll just move out" during your confrontation was a dead giveaway she thinks she has the power to get you to back down so she can wipe her shoes on your back a bit more. Don't let her get away with this crap behavior.


----------



## kristin2349

happy as a clam said:


> *"I'll just move out"...*?????
> 
> :wtf:
> 
> Zack, please tell me there is NO DOUBT left in your mind that she was unfaithful to you after THAT comment???
> 
> NO ONE (and I mean NO ONE) says that unless they know what they did and what is coming down the pipeline. Time to pay the piper, Wife!
> 
> We have given you all the pertinent advice we can. It's up to you what to do with it.
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



EXACTLY! We cross posted, I was thinking the same thing.

My jerk Ex said the same F'ing thing at the start of his "full confession" AKA trickle truthing me to death.


----------



## Zack-00

I am definitely on the trickle truth Kevorkian IV of death. We are in such bad shape that "move out" and divorce comes up frequently in fights so I don't realize how bad that sounds externally or objectively.

This is going to be hell week, probably the 4th worst week of my life (yeah, there are actually 3 worse...).


----------



## Zack-00

And, no... I want to be relationship free for a while. I wouldn't wish me on anyone for a while. My kids are my priority, very sadly it won't come as a complete surprise but I am very worried about what it will do to them.


----------



## ThePheonix

Zack-00 said:


> (yeah, there are actually 3 worse...).


If I were to guess, all three are related to your marriage to her.


----------



## badmemory

GusPolinski said:


> By the way, how've you been?
> 
> Any updates for your thread?


No changes since I last posted. We're still in same routine taking turns driving back and fourth. We see each other 4 to 5 days a week and that's fine "for now".


----------



## Zack-00

ThePheonix said:


> If I were to guess, all three are related to your marriage to her.


2/3. Lost my dad early.


----------



## Chaparral

Do you have posom's number from her phone? Put it in google, spokeo.com white/yellow pages and see if you can find him that way.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

There is actually ONE benefit to not giving a crap any more. Thanks Zack for showing me something worse. Living like that.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

Spokeo is a great idea. It's what I did.
By the time it was all revealed she was actually glad it out in the open because the secret mess she made was killing her...yeah, me too.

However, we did/are reconciling. I did it because of my commitment to our vows, our kids and God.

I lost 30 lbs in the process and we still have our ups and downs but we talk a lot more openly, a lot more intimately and our son is doing a lot better. It took a big toll in her girls. The oldest in particular.

I can see the wife I used to know again. I almost forget the whole chaos at this point...but not fully, not yet.

Sometimes we have to lose everything to realize what's most important.

I'm probably the odd man out on here, but that sounds salvageable if you want it.

You two are adults...your kids are not. Don't go with the whole "kids are resilient" line just so that you don't have to be. They are resilient...until they aren't. And then you can deal with that because you didn't want to deal and heal with this.

Not condemning, just reminding you of another potential aspect of reality.

Good luck!


----------



## happyman64

Zack

Why do you think your wife lies and cheats?

Why is your wife so unhappy?

Have you called her sister and asked her?

HM


----------



## farsidejunky

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Spokeo is a great idea. It's what I did.
> By the time it was all revealed she was actually glad it out in the open because the secret mess she made was killing her...yeah, me too.
> 
> However, we did/are reconciling. I did it because of my commitment to our vows, our kids and God.
> 
> I lost 30 lbs in the process and we still have our ups and downs but we talk a lot more openly, a lot more intimately and our son is doing a lot better. It took a big toll in her girls. The oldest in particular.
> 
> I can see the wife I used to know again. I almost forget the whole chaos at this point...but not fully, not yet.
> 
> Sometimes we have to lose everything to realize what's most important.
> 
> I'm probably the odd man out on here, but that sounds salvageable if you want it.
> 
> You two are adults...your kids are not. Don't go with the whole "kids are resilient" line just so that you don't have to be. They are resilient...until they aren't. And then you can deal with that because you didn't want to deal and heal with this.
> 
> Not condemning, just reminding you of another potential aspect of reality.
> 
> Good luck!


Still, this is her 2nd affair. A little different than your situation. You also made sure she understood where you were coming from, and you were not a door mat for her. You stood firm in the truth, and waited for her to gravitate towards your strength.

This poster may be warming up to that point but is not there yet.

I hope y'all continue to do well.


----------



## Stillkindofhopefull

True enough Far.

I'm away for a week...which is why I've checked on TAM again.

Thanks for all your previous help!!


----------



## GusPolinski

Stillkindofhopefull said:


> Spokeo is a great idea. It's what I did.
> By the time it was all revealed she was actually glad it out in the open because the secret mess she made was killing her...yeah, me too.
> 
> However, we did/are reconciling. I did it because of my commitment to our vows, our kids and God.
> 
> I lost 30 lbs in the process and we still have our ups and downs but we talk a lot more openly, a lot more intimately and our son is doing a lot better. It took a big toll in her girls. The oldest in particular.
> 
> I can see the wife I used to know again. I almost forget the whole chaos at this point...but not fully, not yet.
> 
> Sometimes we have to lose everything to realize what's most important.
> 
> I'm probably the odd man out on here, but that sounds salvageable if you want it.
> 
> You two are adults...your kids are not. Don't go with the whole "kids are resilient" line just so that you don't have to be. They are resilient...until they aren't. And then you can deal with that because you didn't want to deal and heal with this.
> 
> Not condemning, just reminding you of another potential aspect of reality.
> 
> Good luck!


:slap:

Several differences exist between your situation and OP's situation.

And, either way, he can't reconcile his marriage w/ a spouse that is unwilling to be either transparent or truthful.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Zack-00 said:


> I told her last time if there was "anything in the future she hides from me" she should consider it as her telling me she wants a divorce and I'll accommodate it.


Time to be a man of your word. 

If you can't be honest with promises you make to yourself, why should she be honest with you?

Accommodate her.... immediately. You have more than enough reason.

She has squandered the second chance she didn't deserve to have.


----------



## GusPolinski

farsidejunky said:


> Still, this is her 2nd affair. A little different than your situation. You also made sure she understood where you were coming from, and you were not a door mat for her. You stood firm in the truth, and waited for her to gravitate towards your strength.
> 
> This poster may be warming up to that point but is not there yet.
> 
> I hope y'all continue to do well.


To be fair, Still's wife had a couple of affairs herself... it's just that he happened to be OM (even if he didn't know it at the time) the first time around.


----------



## intuitionoramiwrong

BetrayedDad said:


> Time to be a man of your word.
> 
> If you can't be honest with promises you make to yourself, why should she be honest with you?
> 
> Accommodate her.... immediately. You have more than enough reason.
> 
> She has squandered the second chance she didn't deserve to have.


It sounds like she wants you to be the bad guy and kick her out... that way she can go to all her friends and say "well I wanted to make it work but he told me to leave...." bull.


----------



## BetrayedDad

If I had to choose, I'd rather be the bad guy than a doormat.

Better to be the dumper now than the dumpee later.

How long until she walks away with one of her OMs?

Consider it a last favor to her if she's looking to get dumped.

So accommodate her. At least you get to keep some self respect.


----------



## OldWolf57

Z, this chick got big ones man. WOW !!

She actually pulled a Reagan about the txts with him she deleted, "I can't recall". LOL
But, like you say, "not bad off the cuff".
Thing is she got the date wrong, and you found out the friends wasn't there.

Anyway, you already know WHERE she was. She HATES being dictated too, and will continue bucking the leash to get back at you for it.
She told him he wasn't going to lose her, then ran to him the first time she got a little freedom.

Oh, and Zack, you failed the sht test man. Moving out, you folded, then said telling him to stay away from YOUR wife, failed.
THAT told her she still rules the roost.

Now I see her going for the quick hookups just to be spiteful, and avoid leaving a trail.

Sorry man, but I really don't see her being truthful or trust worthy from here out.

I do have 1 question. Do you think she had him in your house that night ??


----------



## OldWolf57

Oh, you might want to look into a polygraph if you still can't catch her in the act itself.


----------



## Tomara

I don't understand why you continue to put yourself through this..... You know she cheated. Kids live through divorces and do fine as long as you stay tuned to their feelings. You got great advice but aren't using it. So stay and don't do a single thing, live with deceit and mistrust. (Shaking head)


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Zack-00 said:


> I am definitely on the trickle truth Kevorkian IV of death.


No, you are waaaaaaay passed trickle truth. She is getting people to cover for her and that is all in lying.



Zack-00 said:


> *I told her last time if there was "anything in the future she hides from me" she should consider it as her telling me she wants a divorce and I'll accommodate it.*


Hmmmm.......



Zack-00 said:


> Her immediate response was "I'll just move out".


Sorry, this is a [email protected]$ test. She KNOWS and KNEW the consequences and still lied. She wants to see if you have the balls to keep your word.


----------



## Zack-00

She refused to leave, so I had to.

Gave up the club story when I showed her the date eff up.

Was with posom, trying to sell me an innocent story.

Went to his office to speak with him but of course he refused to come out, had the nurse tell me if I didn't leave they would call the police. Oh well.

Now it's a fight for my kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## manfromlamancha

Go back to your house right away ! Abandonment charges loom followed by trumped up domestic violence charges and a restraining order. Carry a VAR (activated) on you always when you are near her.


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> She refused to leave, so I had to.
> 
> Gave up the club story when I showed her the date eff up.
> 
> Was with posom, trying to sell me an innocent story.
> 
> Went to his office to speak with him but of course he refused to come out, had the nurse tell me if I didn't leave they would call the police. Oh well.
> 
> Now it's a fight for my kids.


Do. Not. Leave. Your. Home.

Cannot emphasize this enough.

180. 180. 180. 180. 180.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Zack-00 said:


> She refused to leave, so I had to.
> 
> Gave up the club story when I showed her the date eff up.
> 
> Was with posom, trying to sell me an innocent story.
> 
> Went to his office to speak with him but of course he refused to come out, had the nurse tell me if I didn't leave they would call the police. Oh well.
> 
> Now it's a fight for my kids.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fight for your kids? Then get back in your house when you calm down.


Also, DO NOT TELL HER HOW YOU FOUND OUT.


----------



## JohnA

That is your home !!!! Why do you leave ????

1000 to one this is a 90 day wonder affair.

The posom is a doctor ???? Wait, he cheated on his wife and reached out to her because he was suicidal ??? Lawyers, doctors etc are in weak position in regards to rep.

Those friends she had dinner with, what is their story ??? Talk with them.

My ex tried too say her posom's ex cheated first, and that she knew. Err No !! Time to talk to his wife and get his info. Understand he is coaching her at this point. 

Again leaving the house is leaving the kids.


----------



## alexm

happyman64 said:


> Zack
> 
> Why do you think your wife lies and cheats?
> 
> Why is your wife so unhappy?
> 
> Have you called her sister and asked her?
> 
> HM


This is very pertinent information, imo. If OP doesn't want to share why, or he's not sure, that's fine. Not all the details are always necessary.

But I find that - even though cheating is never, never justified, ever - 9 x out of 10 there's something missing from the cheaters life. Certainly not the way to go about finding it, but all the same.

I can tell you that there's a big enough gap in my sex/intimacy life with my wife, but I'm trying to fix it, or work around it, or with it. I'm not a cheater. I'll divorce first, if I ever get to that point, even if I still love her. A lot of people do still love their partners, but figure it's easier to get what they're missing, rather than fix it, or divorce. That old thing about having their cake and eating it, too.

I know in the case of my ex wife, she just didn't find me attractive any more. She loved me (or "loved me"...), but had no physical desire to be with me, other than as companions, partners, friends, so she found that elsewhere. In my case, it wasn't fixable. She has a type, I wasn't it. Every other experience with guys of her type prior to me, didn't work out. So along came the "nice guy", with everything else she was looking for. But I'm not tall, lean and whatever other physical characteristic she wanted. The OM's were.

However, the opposite can also be true - you can definitely be a physical and sexual match for your partner (something you can't usually change) but you can come short in other areas (many of which you CAN change).

In the end, it doesn't really matter, even if you can't change whatever it is is the issue. Your spouse should either live with whatever shortcomings you may have, try to implement a change in you, or divorce you. Infidelity is the worst, and stupidest, option.

But that said, when it happens to people like me, who strive to be a good husband, a good partner, and is open to change for the better, these things will still happen. Nothing I could have done would have saved my first marriage or prevented her from infidelity - that was on her. But she did have the option to divorce, which she only did after she found somebody who met all her requirements, not just one or the other. In the meantime, she had her other needs met while having me around to meet the rest.

I imagine your wife is doing a similar thing. And if you want to try and save this (which I wouldn't at this point, imo) then you need to find out what it is she's missing, and make sure you fulfil it going forward. That is how marriages are successful and how marriages last - meeting your partners needs, even if it means some adjustments here and there.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Oh, when you calm down, contact the ex-wife. 


Zack-00 said:


> Chauncey - his wife left him because he was cheating on her with someone he worked with.


See, if this story is true. Don't feel obligated to help her when, she has twice broken the marriage


----------



## Dyokemm

"Went to his office to speak with him but of course he refused to come out, had the nurse tell me if I didn't leave they would call the police."

What a TYPICAL p*ssy POSOM!

Not ONE speck of b*lls or real manhood about any of these turds.

Running to the cops to protect himself from the consequences of f*cking with another man's M and family.

What a f*cking spineless coward.


----------



## 3putt

Dyokemm said:


> "Went to his office to speak with him but of course he refused to come out, had the nurse tell me if I didn't leave they would call the police."
> 
> What a TYPICAL p*ssy POSOM!
> 
> Not ONE speck of b*lls or real manhood about any of these turds.
> 
> Running to the cops to protect himself from the consequences of f*cking with another man's M and family.
> 
> What a f*cking spineless coward.


Yeah, Zach's WW picked a real 'man' to fvck around with, huh?


----------



## JohnA

Zack. 

For gods sake. Stay in your home and reach out to his ex.

He is a drama queen. He gets self validation from your pain. He will continue to interfere in your marriage until you get background info and expose. Right now it is two against one. They are feeding and egging each other on. What type of man disrupts someone else's kids life.

Do not be a nice guy, be a good guy. Stop them in their tracks.


----------



## Dyokemm

Yeah 3putt...she sure did.

You know, I would have been tempted to make him call the cops.

I would have told him:

"Go ahead p*ssy....call the cops. I would really love to tell them what a f*cking snake and sh*tbag you truly are....and make sure they understand that I am putting you on notice to stay the h*ll away from my family or there will be consequences."

I think few things make a POSOM feel more humiliated than having to whine and cry to the cops that they are afraid of the BH they screwed over.....you KNOW the cops will be looking at this POS like the worm he truly is.

Sure they will tell you to leave the premises and not come back....but everyone present (POS, BH, Cops, co-workers, etc) knows just how big of a douche the POSOM looks like in this situation.

Like a whimpering puppy with his tail between his legs begging for the police to protect him.

Hard to imagine a more unmanly scene.


----------



## GusPolinski

And hey, were you able to retrieve the VAR yet?


----------



## Voltaire2013

If he is a medical professional in any sort of caring capacity it is incumbent of you to let someone know that he is having thoughts of suicide. As the caring wife is so concerned, so are you. You just want to convey that information to someone who is above him, in the interest of patient care and the wellbeing of the OM. Please tell me you have a text where she states he is suicidal, we need to help him. :grin2:

Use what you have against him. 

And move back in, stupid. Ask her where SHE will be staying. 

Cheers,
V(13)




Dyokemm said:


> Yeah 3putt...she sure did.
> 
> You know, I would have been tempted to make him call the cops.
> 
> I would have told him:
> 
> "Go ahead p*ssy....call the cops. I would really love to tell them what a f*cking snake and sh*tbag you truly are....and make sure they understand that I am putting you on notice to stay the h*ll away from my family or there will be consequences."
> 
> I think few things make a POSOM feel more humiliated than having to whine and cry to the cops that they are afraid of the BH they screwed over.....you KNOW the cops will be looking at this POS like the worm he truly is.
> 
> Sure they will tell you to leave the premises and not come back....but everyone present (POS, BH, Cops, co-workers, etc) knows just how big of a douche the POSOM looks like in this situation.
> 
> Like a whimpering puppy with his tail between his legs begging for the police to protect him.
> 
> Hard to imagine a more unmanly scene.


----------



## Dyokemm

"If he is a medical professional in any sort of caring capacity it is incumbent of you to let someone know that he is having thoughts of suicide. As the caring wife is so concerned, so are you. You just want to convey that information to someone who is above him, in the interest of patient care and the wellbeing of the OM. Please tell me you have a text where she states he is suicidal, we need to help him."

Absolutely BRILLIANT idea.


----------



## Zack-00

Everyone seems adamant about not leaving the house but if it becomes chaos there with the kids we're fighting screaming and people get called out that seems to be a bigger problem.

Because I didn't make any threats I got released but it was a very interesting afternoon.

To be honest I don't understand the abandonment issue with leaving. It did not adversely affect my brother's outcome. Can someone point me to something I should read or research?


----------



## Voltaire2013

Zack-00 said:


> Everyone seems adamant about not leaving the house but if it becomes chaos there with the kids we're fighting screaming and people get called out that seems to be a bigger problem.
> 
> Because I didn't make any threats I got released but it was a very interesting afternoon.
> 
> To be honest I don't understand the abandonment issue with leaving. It did not adversely affect my brother's outcome. Can someone point me to something I should read or research?


You're not the cheater, there are plenty of threads in regards to that. I get the hostility end of things. Don't let her control you like that. Smile and say 'I'm sorry you feel that way' to any and all tripe that her cheater mouth espouses. 

Search for Conrad &Maviish posts on this website. It's enlightening. 
Be the best you regardless of the outcome of your marriage, for you & your childrens' sake. 

Cheers,
V(13)


----------



## Zack-00

Why is she so unhappy? I am not completely sure however I know I am at least 50 percent to blame. I have never cheated. Love languages, his needs her needs, counseling, I have initiated all of that. I am not a very affectionate person. I am a somewhat perfectionist and that was very difficult with her personality as she is bubbly, gregarious, outgoing socially, a lot of very attractive traits. I am a 5 or 6, she is an 8 or 9. I am high drive she is low drive.

The first affair kicked one of three legs of our foundation. I don't know that I personally ever fully recovered. There was a point there where admiration and devotion turned into resentment from her. I can't identify what that was and she can't really tell me.

It is too easy to ramble with voice to text so I'm going to have to quit..


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> Everyone seems adamant about not leaving the house but if it becomes chaos there with the kids we're fighting screaming and people get called out that seems to be a bigger problem.
> 
> Because I didn't make any threats I got released but it was a very interesting afternoon.
> 
> To be honest I don't understand the abandonment issue with leaving. It did not adversely affect my brother's outcome. Can someone point me to something I should read or research?


Why Moving Out Is the Biggest Mistake in a Divorce*|*Joseph E. Cordell

Also, no more yelling and shouting. NONE. If she starts to engage, you disengage. Leave the room or walk into the backyard if necessary.

Read up on the 180 and implement.

KEEP. A. VAR. ON. YOU. AT. ALL. TIMES.


----------



## Voltaire2013

Zack-00 said:


> Why is she so unhappy? I am not completely sure however I know I am at least 50 percent to blame. I have never cheated. Love languages, his needs her needs, counseling, I have initiated all of that. I am not a very affectionate person. I am a somewhat perfectionist and that was very difficult with her personality as she is bubbly, gregarious, outgoing socially, a lot of very attractive traits. I am a 5 or 6, she is an 8 or 9. I am high drive she is low drive.
> 
> The first affair kicked one of three legs of our foundation. I don't know that I personally ever fully recovered. There was a point there where admiration and devotion turned into resentment from her. I can't identify what that was and she can't really tell me.
> 
> It is too easy to ramble with voice to text so I'm going to have to quit..



Are you a 'nice guy'? I get the feeling you are. There's a book for that if it hasn't been suggested so far. https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

Read up.

We're all pulling for you and your marriage,but you need to man up right now. I mean literally right now.

I wish you all the best,
V(13)


----------



## Zack-00

I am just really skeptical that still living together can work while going through this.

It would be pretty easy to think maybe you could be okay this isn't so bad, do I really want to leave my kids, do I really want to give half my money and pay maintenance, maybe this could work she is treating me like a king now, and then I'm right back where I started. I'm worried about just the next few days and weeks...


----------



## GusPolinski

I'm having trouble reconciling this...



Zack-00 said:


> I am just really skeptical that still living together can work while going through this.
> 
> It would be pretty easy to think maybe you could be okay this isn't so bad, do I really want to leave my kids, do I really want to give half my money and pay maintenance, *maybe this could work she is treating me like a king now*, and then I'm right back where I started. I'm worried about just the next few days and weeks...


...with this...



Zack-00 said:


> Everyone seems adamant about not leaving the house but if it becomes chaos there with the kids we're fighting screaming and people get called out that seems to be a bigger problem.
> 
> *Because I didn't make any threats I got released but it was a very interesting afternoon.*
> 
> To be honest I don't understand the abandonment issue with leaving. It did not adversely affect my brother's outcome. Can someone point me to something I should read or research?


Please explain.

Also, were you able to retrieve the VAR or not?


----------



## tom67

GusPolinski said:


> I'm having trouble reconciling this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...with this...
> 
> 
> 
> Please explain.
> 
> Also, were you able to retrieve the VAR or not?


You got released???
From what?


----------



## BetrayedDad

Zack-00 said:


> she is bubbly, gregarious, outgoing socially, a lot of very attractive traits. I am a 5 or 6, she is an 8 or 9. I am high drive she is low drive.


Is this what you're worried about? That you won't find another "hot" babe to replace her? Better to be with a cheating slvt? I'd take a loyal 6 over a wh0re 9 all day long. She's not low drive. She's just low drive WITH YOU. With the OMs she's getting her freak on cause she doesn't respect you as a man.

Why did you have a low opinion of yourself? Overweight? What are you doing to get your rank up? If you do nothing else you start working on that today. Lose the weight, hit the gym lifting heavy weights three times a week, dress better and groom yourself.


----------



## Zack-00

Released - His office did call police but I never threatened so their was no crime but they had a locate out on me. I had to go in. Huge macho mistake and dumb risk


They made my family come in for their safety.

I'm back at the house but I don't know if this is a good strategy. Back with my kids knowing it isn't going to be this way with them much longer...

Nothing new on VAR except crying.


----------



## Zack-00

My rating of 5/6? I don't know part humble and I'm no George Clooney. I'm in good shape.

Fear of losing hotness? No. There were opportunities, never really considered, I have to be able to sleep at night and I have a ridiculous altruistic streak.


----------



## Satya

If you leave your house, make sure you install a revolving door for the OM before you go, because leaving is as good as ensuring he can go there any time and F your wife. 

Wake up! Stop enabling them. Stop being a carpet. If she wants him, SHE can move out!


----------



## JohnA

Why does she hate you ? Read about the fog, ecp about the hate.

Short answer; she has a self image of herself she can't let go of. She is a good girl, mother, and wife. A good mother does not destroy her kids family. Does not cheat, etc. All of which she has dome. Why ? It can't be her so it most be you. What type of evil man drives his sanity wife to this. She most drive you out for the good all all.

Again and again the act of cheating is always ob them. 

Be in the home, speak softly when necessary but follow the 180. If she attempts to justify if you most respond just say, I wish you had divorced me them, but the act of cheating is on you.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Going back to your house is not about living together with your WW! It is about ensuring that you are not seen to be abandoning yiur child and protecting your custody and other rights. Hopefully if you do not engage and carry a VAR on you at all times, she will leave.

In any case - what exactly happened and what exactly is she saying in response to your confrontation ? Why is she refusing to leave ? More details please.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Zack-00 said:


> To be honest I don't understand the abandonment issue with leaving. It did not adversely affect my brother's outcome. Can someone point me to something I should read or research?


I've been on this and other boards for a LONG time. I have NEVER heard of someone having legal abandonment problems if they just had to leave the house to get away from their cheating spouse. It is that group think that overcomes otherwise rational posters. This forum is VERY suseptible to that.

You CANNOT force her out of your house. But you can very easily and rationally remove yourself from a very bad situation. I'm guessing you are within a few minutes of your family if they need you? 

"She cheated, why should you leave"? Sure. You can stay and fight a horrible fight and maintain your pride while you force HER to move out (nobody ever follows up with how, exactly, that is accomplished). Or you do what is rational. 

So silly.


----------



## alexm

Zack-00 said:


> Why is she so unhappy? I am not completely sure however I know I am at least 50 percent to blame. I have never cheated. Love languages, his needs her needs, counseling, I have initiated all of that. I am not a very affectionate person. I am a somewhat perfectionist and that was very difficult with her personality as she is bubbly, gregarious, outgoing socially, a lot of very attractive traits. I am a 5 or 6, she is an 8 or 9. I am high drive she is low drive.


No, you're not ANY percent to blame, and don't forget that. When I asked a few pages ago about what you thought her motives were, or what it was she was missing, it wasn't meant to be a justification, because there never is one. No blame on you at all.

I think the prevailing wisdom around here is that a cheater will cheat if they get a reason to, and I agree. Not a chance - a reason. Something they can use to justify within themselves. Other people could be given reasons and chances and never blink an eye. They're just not cheaters.

So in her case, perhaps it was lack of affection from you, which she started to receive elsewhere. But that doesn't mean it's at all your fault, or you have any blame in there.

In a nutshell, there are those you need to pay particular attention to in regards to meeting their needs, lest this sort of thing happen. But it's often nearly impossible to tell which kind of spouse you have until it's too late. It's always advisable to meet your partners needs in all ways (if possible) - not only to avoid this sort of thing, but just for the sake of the marriage or partnership.

In my previous marriage, I was also the "5 or 6" vs. my ex wife being an 8 or a 9. That's not me thinking poorly of myself, it's just what it is. We once were on equal footing in that regard, but she worked on herself physically. It's much easier for a woman to go up a few #'s than it is for a man. We don't have the benefit of things like makeup and hair straighteners and all that. Us guys can lose a few lbs, wear nicer clothes and get a haircut, but we still look the same, just with nicer clothes and a better haircut  Women have the benefit of being able to transform themselves through various methods, whereas we guys can more or less just clean ourselves up and maybe add a little bit of muscle. And don't forget things like height, which matter for men, but not for women.

So when you're in a mis-matched relationship, each person needs to strive to lessen the gap. You're familiar with the 5LL's, as should all people, so that's always a good start. My wife and I are the reverse of one another when it comes to the love languages, but I ensure I speak to her in her language. She does not do a great job of speaking to me in mine, but it's there when she remembers to. Neither of us are cheaters, at least I know I'm not. As I said, you never truly know until it happens. My ex wife was, your wife is, and many other people are, sometimes in spite of people like us trying to bridge the love languages gap. And sometimes because neither partner tries to make the connection.

I'm going to go off on a tangent here, but it's sort of relevant - I have a theory about why people are attracted to what they're attracted to, and that it's basically that humans imprint themselves upon what they've had past success with, when it comes to relationships. So, for example, one's first true love has a greater impression on us than we maybe ever thought about, and we tend to imprint what is ideal based on this type of thing.

The first girl I ever loved, and dated and had a relationship with, was slightly chubby, voluptuous, curvy, and had an outgoing and bubbly personality - just like my wife. (for those of you who know and have been around here a while, my wife WAS my first love, ha! We had a 15 year gap before meeting up again in our 30's while single). I had dated a few other girls before her, but wasn't in love. My ex wife's first love was tall and lean, with other characteristics (physical and otherwise) that didn't describe me at all. One of her OM's, who she ended up marrying, matched the characteristics of the man (boy) who she first fell in love with when she was younger. I didn't match them at all, therefore, even if subconsciously, the "real" attraction wasn't there for her, and that certainly came to the surface eventually.

That's not to say you must marry the same type (physical or personality-wise) as your first love, in order to have a successful marriage, but I think it actually makes more of a difference than one would think, especially in the long run. In my case, at least, if I was taller and lean (and this, that or the other thing), then my ex wife would likely have not gone elsewhere, as this was what was missing, and allegedly only that. I know I met her needs in all the ways that I could, and she knew I was a good husband, partner, provider and friend. For all intents and purposes, and even she said back then, the only thing missing for her was a physical attraction. I'm no shlub, either. I'm just not 6'2" and wiry, and whatever other things she instinctually found attractive.

But none of that justifies infidelity, nor does it put any blame whatsoever on me. Regardless of whether it's something you can change or not (obviously I couldn't), infidelity should never happen. My ex wife should have, upon realizing what she was missing from me, ended the marriage and sought out what she was missing then, and only then. But instead, she decided to seek out, from others, what she was missing from me. The OM's (1 confirmed, and 2 others pretty obvious but never confirmed by her or me) all had the same physical traits. In the meantime, she maintained the marriage with me, where all her other needs were being met, thereby having her cake, and eating it, too.


----------



## naiveonedave

Great post Alex, needed more than a like


----------



## BetrayedDad

JohnA said:


> Why does she hate you? Read about the fog, esp. about the hate.
> 
> Short answer; she has a self image of herself she can't let go of. She is a good girl, mother, and wife. A good mother does not destroy her kid's family. Does not cheat, etc. All of which she has done. Why? It can't be her so it must be you. What type of evil man drives his saintly wife to this? She must drive you out for the good of all.


Excellent insight. Many cheaters are delusional enough to think the BS forced them into the arms of another due to (insert bvllsh!t excuse here).

Zero accountability..... it's a typical trait found in selfish people who need to justify their bad behavior. 

How a person can still believe they are a good parent when they cheat on the dad or mom of their children is mind boggling.....


----------



## RV9

Expose the OM to everyone who knows him. Don't let him get away with it. Hope you have sufficient evidence to back up the exposure.


----------



## RV9

Zack-00 said:


> Released - His office did call police but I never threatened so their was no crime but they had a locate out on me. I had to go in. Huge macho mistake and dumb risk
> 
> 
> They made my family come in for their safety.
> 
> I'm back at the house but I don't know if this is a good strategy. Back with my kids knowing it isn't going to be this way with them much longer...
> 
> Nothing new on VAR except crying.


This wasn't a mistake.


----------



## ButtPunch

Is POSOM married? If he is, exposure to his wife needs to happen yesterday.


----------



## Zack-00

Thanks alex.

I don't blame myself for what she did. I have blame for the overall state of our relationship, some of it.

McCoy, I read the link from, I think it was Gus, and it was mostly about court and custody regarding commitment to kids. Anyone here been penalized for leaving when it came to custody? 

She has been at my locked door in our basement bedroom for 35 minutes straight crying and begging. 1 more chance, best wife ever, etc. I think it may more build more animosity as I ignore her more and more.


----------



## ButtPunch

She's crying she lost her safety net. BooHoo!


----------



## BetrayedDad

Zack-00 said:


> I'm no George Clooney.


And she's no nine... 

Nine's don't hand out their vagina's like free cotton candy. 

Get her off this pedestal you have her on and see her for what she is. Look hard, (besides being a slvt) she has her flaws like most do.

I guarantee even she doesn't think she's a nine. Part of the reason she throws sex at men is because she is insecure and wants validation. 

It's the only way she thinks anyone would want her. Does that sound like a nine to you?


----------



## happyman64

Zack

Can I make a suggestion.

Unlock the darn door and communicate with your wayward wife.

Demand the truth. If she wants a 2nd, 3rd or 4th chance ask her why she deserves one?

Don't come off like an @ss. Be strong. Be calm. Listen to her.

Don't rush to any decisions. Time is on your side.

Your wife has some serious issues. They are her issues to fix. But until she can be honest about them with you, neither of you can work on the marriage.

And if she is in IC she needs to come clean with her counselor about her lies & cheating and you need to be able to confirm this.

You have a tough decision to make right now. You have to decide if you have enough love left for her to even consider giving her the gift of another chance.

So calm down. Open the door. Sit her down and explain what you need from her to even contemplate another chance.

Then ask her to take some time for herself to decide does she have the courage in her to be honest with you and herself.

Then ask her does she have the strength to work on her issues as well as the marriage.

HM

*"Very often we don’t go elsewhere because we are looking for another person. We go elsewhere because we are looking for another self. It isn’t so much that we want to leave the person we are with as we want to leave the person we have become."

by Esther Perel*


----------



## Chaparral

How do you know the other man was actually going through a divorce. This is a common lie cheaters tell their spouse to keep you from contacting the other betrayed spouse to check out their story. Call his wife and ask her whats really going on. This lie turns up regularly here.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Chaparral said:


> How do you know the other man was actually going through a divorce. This is a common lie cheaters tell their spouse to keep you from contacting the other betrayed spouse to check out their story. Call his wife and ask her whats really going on. This lie turns up regularly here.


It's also a lie many OMs will tell the WW to keep them on the hook... Most WW's know better but stick their head in the sand and play along anyway.

I guess it sounds "more romantic" than admitting they have no intention of dumping their wives and they are just looking for someone to pump and dump.


----------



## Zack-00

happyman - I have a dilemma I can't solve: I have no capacity left to bird dog my wife anymore, and I don't trust her at all.

Trying to avoid the "you're a f'n idiot" posts I was vague on the prior cheats, but I don't care now. She had a PA 15 years ago, 4 years after we were married, no kids. Then 3 years ago she had an EA that was just about to go physical before she hit answer on her phone instead of hanging up like she thought. That is when I found TAM. Poly said there was no "genital contact" - may be the most humiliating day of my life, dumpster diving with her uncle's roommate (I *really* don't want to revisit that). I checked out from any trust or connection or vulnerability etc., that would be needed for a good marriage, and quite frankly any chance at being happy at that point. No kids = no wife. I stayed for the kids, selfishly because I wanted to be with them every day and they were pretty young. I was still nice, still did nice things (7 day trip to Italy where we didn't fight once for her 40th bday) etc. I no longer cared about her threats, didn't take her $hit tests seriously at all any more. She bought the book 'too good to leave, too bad to stay' and barely tried to hide it.

Then she had a series of fb sessions with one of my old high school friends whom I know liked her - and instead of telling me "Hey I'm talking to xyz", carried on and let it get flirty. Instead of keeping my cool and seeing if she would meet with him as he was coming to our city I blew up and she got wise.

So, even after all that, after I said 3 years ago "next time means you want a divorce" she does this.

btw - she still has no explanation for turning FMI off, and I told her I don't want to know, I know enough.

Work this AM, try to find lawyer this afternoon, kid event later, and I think I am going to have to find an apartment because she isn't going to leave and I don't want to be around her.

Flame on...


----------



## Zack-00

Chaparral said:


> How do you know the other man was actually going through a divorce. This is a common lie cheaters tell their spouse to keep you from contacting the other betrayed spouse to check out their story. Call his wife and ask her whats really going on. This lie turns up regularly here.


posom is a friend of my W's good friends. No doubt his wife left him, moved to another state. posom went to dinner with mutual friends with AP/new girlfriend. But now new GF is leaving him supposedly ( who knows all BS ).

W actually had the audacity to say "i don't know if he was having an affair at the time" though he was with the woman his wife suspected. Just f'n unbelievable.


----------



## Zack-00

BetrayedDad said:


> And she's no nine...
> 
> Nine's don't hand out their vagina's like free cotton candy.
> 
> Get her off this pedestal you have her on and see her for what she is. Look hard, (besides being a slvt) she has her flaws like most do.
> 
> I guarantee even she doesn't think she's a nine. Part of the reason she throws sex at men is because she is insecure and wants validation.
> 
> It's the only way she thinks anyone would want her. Does that sound like a nine to you?


No pedestal. Based purely on physical appearance - she is an 8 or 9. Intellect, humor, competitiveness, parenting, and character: I am comfortable with myself.


----------



## Lon

Why are you indulging in all this drama? What is wrong with you to feel like you deserve to put up with this kind of abuse? I suggest counselling to help you see straight, leave this abuser and make a good life like you are most likely capable of.


----------



## happyman64

Zack-00 said:


> happyman - I have a dilemma I can't solve: I have no capacity left to bird dog my wife anymore, and I don't trust her at all.
> 
> Trying to avoid the "you're a f'n idiot" posts I was vague on the prior cheats, but I don't care now. She had a PA 15 years ago, 4 years after we were married, no kids. Then 3 years ago she had an EA that was just about to go physical before she hit answer on her phone instead of hanging up like she thought. That is when I found TAM. Poly said there was no "genital contact" - may be the most humiliating day of my life, dumpster diving with her uncle's roommate (I *really* don't want to revisit that). I checked out from any trust or connection or vulnerability etc., that would be needed for a good marriage, and quite frankly any chance at being happy at that point. No kids = no wife. I stayed for the kids, selfishly because I wanted to be with them every day and they were pretty young. I was still nice, still did nice things (7 day trip to Italy where we didn't fight once for her 40th bday) etc. I no longer cared about her threats, didn't take her $hit tests seriously at all any more. She bought the book 'too good to leave, too bad to stay' and barely tried to hide it.
> 
> Then she had a series of fb sessions with one of my old high school friends whom I know liked her - and instead of telling me "Hey I'm talking to xyz", carried on and let it get flirty. Instead of keeping my cool and seeing if she would meet with him as he was coming to our city I blew up and she got wise.
> 
> So, even after all that, after I said 3 years ago "next time means you want a divorce" she does this.
> 
> btw - she still has no explanation for turning FMI off, and I told her I don't want to know, I know enough.
> 
> Work this AM, try to find lawyer this afternoon, kid event later, and I think I am going to have to find an apartment because she isn't going to leave and I don't want to be around her.
> 
> Flame on...


You answered my question. And wanting to be with your kids while tolerating a wayward wife is not selfish. It is "giving" my friend.

I truly think from what you have told us that your wife no longer deserves "you" or a marriage. All her hurtful actions seem to point to that.

Flame on is right.

Good Luck, keep your cool. And do what you have to do now.

HM


----------



## G.J.

Has she said she went physical with him ?

Or still gas lighting ?

I know your possibly not bothered now...but i'd still need to know


----------



## ButtPunch

She is a serial cheat and you sir are codependent.

Just let her go.


----------



## alexm

ButtPunch said:


> She is a serial cheat and you sir are codependent.
> 
> Just let her go.


I disagree with this. He is codependent for the sake of the kids. He gave his wife a second chance 15 years ago. Most people would, whether we like to admit it or not. It was good for 12 or so years, then he discovered an EA, close to a PA. And he was done. At that point, trust and respect was gone for good, yet he stayed for his own reason - to be with the kids on a daily basis, rather than just weekends. Good for him!

This time, he's done with the marriage. A few years ago, he was done with her. There's a difference between keeping the most important people in the world to him close - his children - and being codependent to his wife. That was the trade off several years ago. I see nothing wrong with that. He checked out years ago, but made the best of the situation as only he knew how. No codependency there.


----------



## Dyokemm

"btw - she still has no explanation for turning FMI off, and I told her I don't want to know, I know enough."

As Happyman64 advised, 

Tell her to knock off the balling and begging and listen to what you are telling her RIGHT NOW.

Until she can come up with the truth about what actually went on with this POSOM, their is simply NO PATH for you to even think about fixing the M with her.

Tell her you KNOW that something very inappropriate went down.....POS turtling up in his office, terrified to face you, and calling the police is undeniable evidence that he (POS) KNOWS that something went down he deserves a major a** beating for.

And being the p*ssy he is, he is hiding from the consequences.

The fact that she is STILL denying anything inappropriate is simply insulting and disrespectful....and is leaving you with no other option than to kick her a** to the curb hard.

Tell her that if she truly wants any shot as saving her M, the crying and balling will get her NO WHERE......the ONLY shot she has is to finally become truthful and show some serious remorse rather than just weeping for the loss of her own comfort.


----------



## alexm

happyman64 said:


> Zack
> 
> Can I make a suggestion.
> 
> Unlock the darn door and communicate with your wayward wife.
> 
> Demand the truth. If she wants a 2nd, 3rd or 4th chance ask her why she deserves one?
> 
> Don't come off like an @ss. Be strong. Be calm. Listen to her.
> 
> Don't rush to any decisions. Time is on your side.
> 
> Your wife has some serious issues. They are her issues to fix. But until she can be honest about them with you, neither of you can work on the marriage.
> 
> And if she is in IC she needs to come clean with her counselor about her lies & cheating and you need to be able to confirm this.
> 
> You have a tough decision to make right now. You have to decide if you have enough love left for her to even consider giving her the gift of another chance.
> 
> So calm down. Open the door. Sit her down and explain what you need from her to even contemplate another chance.
> 
> Then ask her to take some time for herself to decide does she have the courage in her to be honest with you and herself.
> 
> Then ask her does she have the strength to work on her issues as well as the marriage.
> 
> HM
> 
> *"Very often we don’t go elsewhere because we are looking for another person. We go elsewhere because we are looking for another self. It isn’t so much that we want to leave the person we are with as we want to leave the person we have become."
> 
> by Esther Perel*


I was going to say that this is a perfect chance to get all the information you need out of her, all while thinking she has a chance, but I guess that's kind of mean and not your style.

That said, the above is true - you have a great chance of her spilling all the details, provided she thinks that's what it'll take to keep you.

You can tell her, in no uncertain terms, you are going to answer every question I have, without thinking and without saying "I don't know, I don't remember, etc. The instant you are vague or unclear about something, it's over for good. You can come clean with me about everything, hold nothing back, and prove to me that you are serious about being with me. No matter how difficult it is to answer my questions, or to feel like you have to protect yourself (or the OM), you have one chance, and one chance only, to tell me everything. EVERYthing. So choose your words carefully, because you won't get another chance, and if you so much as even make me think you're gaslighting me in any way, shape or form, the conversation is over, as is the marriage. Permanently. Now start talking."

Of course, you don't have to let her know you're already done with her. Just turn on your VAR and get all the details. If that sort of thing is admissable where you live, then great. And if not, then at least you have a full recorded confession to send to anybody who might be interested.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Zack-00 said:


> No pedestal. Based purely on physical appearance - she is an 8 or 9. Intellect, humor, competitiveness, parenting, and character: I am comfortable with myself.


No offense, but if I had a dollar for every thread started by a guy who states that his cheating wife was a knockout... Never have I seen a place where so many guys have 7" plus long peckers and married to knockouts. Just bear in mind that one man's 9 is another man's 6... Regardless, you stayed too long with this woman as it is. And at over 40, the looks will fade.

Dare I ask if this was an issue where you felt "lucky" that a girl like this wanted to be with you? Not a good reason to marry. While I'm sure you figured this out already, you need to spend your time dating around and actually vetting these girls to ensure that you find a legitimate match. Someone you are compatible with and shares your values. Good luck.


----------



## Satya

It doesn't matter if she's a 15+ on the surface, if underneath she's -50. 

I wish more men would get this. :banghead:


----------



## Zack-00

Plan 9 from OS said:


> No offense, but if I had a dollar for every thread started by a guy who states that his cheating wife was a knockout... Never have I seen a place where so many guys have 7" plus long peckers and married to knockouts. Just bear in mind that one man's 9 is another man's 6... Regardless, you stayed too long with this woman as it is. And at over 40, the looks will fade.
> 
> Dare I ask if this was an issue where you felt "lucky" that a girl like this wanted to be with you? Not a good reason to marry. While I'm sure you figured this out already, you need to spend your time dating around and actually vetting these girls to ensure that you find a legitimate match. Someone you are compatible with and shares your values. Good luck.


I'm average...

Not lucky, we had a connection and a relationship that worked when we were really young, but as we got older that changed (about 3 years into being married, 7 prior - so 10 years) and one really good counselor described it perfectly. Not a good reason to marry? We were too young and inexperienced for sure, but it worked great for quite a while. To this day I don't know why it went off the rails then.

I've seen what my brother has gone through, and my sister - each on their third, and then my other brother happily married for 20 years and getting better...


----------



## ButtPunch

alexm said:


> I disagree with this. He is codependent for the sake of the kids. He gave his wife a second chance 15 years ago. Most people would, whether we like to admit it or not. It was good for 12 or so years, then he discovered an EA, close to a PA. And he was done. At that point, trust and respect was gone for good, yet he stayed for his own reason - to be with the kids on a daily basis, rather than just weekends. Good for him!
> 
> This time, he's done with the marriage. A few years ago, he was done with her. There's a difference between keeping the most important people in the world to him close - his children - and being codependent to his wife. That was the trade off several years ago. I see nothing wrong with that. He checked out years ago, but made the best of the situation as only he knew how. No codependency there.


Every codependent on here stays for the kids when that excuse is available. Battered women like to stay married for the kids also. We agree to disagree.


----------



## Dyokemm

"It doesn't matter if she's a 15+ on the surface, if underneath she's -50.

I wish more men would get this."

I agree 1000%.

But I also wish that more women would 'get' that just because some guy tells them how sweet, beautiful, and special they are...it does NOT make them a 'nice' or 'good' guy.

We hear that sh*t all the time on here from WW's.

They seem to be totally blinded to the obvious fact that ANY scumbag that would charm and flirt with a M woman is by definition a total POS and a loser.


----------



## Lon

Satya said:


> It doesn't matter if she's a 15+ on the surface, if underneath she's -50.
> 
> I wish more men would get this. :banghead:


True, but on the other hand a +5 on the outside who is a +50 still looks like a +5. Don't underestimate the power of physical attraction, obviously it is capable of making many people make dumb choices.


----------



## happyman64

Zack-00 said:


> I'm average...
> 
> I've seen what my brother has gone through, and my sister - each on their third, and then my other brother happily married for 20 years and getting better...


I consider myself average as well. When I was young all my GF's were hot. My fiancé that shattered me was a model. It is funny how we are shaped by events in our life.

I never dated a woman again that spent more time looking at themselves in mirrors or had to be constantly validated by me.

I never dated a tall, slim knockout again. A woman that others would always stop to stare at or comment on.

When I brought my future wife home to meet my parents my father told my mother that night I would marry her. My mother asked why. All my Dad could say was look at her. She is totally opposite of all the other girls I dated.

That is true.

But what I realized over time was what I truly needed in a partner.

Hot (tall, lean and mean) is great but over time short, curvy and cute is just as good.

But beneath the skin I needed honesty to a fault. I needed loyalty and respect. I needed a partner to understand that I was in it for the long haul. That means forever.

I found that. I dated my wife 6 years to confirm it. We never lived together. 

And to date she has not disappointed me yet. And I will never give her a reason to ever lose faith in me.

So here's to being average. And having a relationship with someone that is average.

Average rules in my book. Go find someone average and have a great life. You deserve it.

HM


----------



## workindad

OP I am sorry for the spot you find yourself in. 

I would ask you to consider a statement you posted. 

You factored her parenting and character into your numerical 8 or 9 assessment of your wife. Even if she was a supermodel, her character and parenting are both lacking. A good parent does not wreak this kind of havoc down on their child. Especially one who has experience with the outcome and knows full well the stress it brings. 

As for her character. She is a willing liar and unremorseful cheater. Does that sound like you should score her character well? I'm not trying to bash your wife just asking you to fully evaluate what you really have. 

Your children are watching and learning from you. Focus on you and them and get tested for stds. 

As for the dbag posom who called the cops without even being threatened I would strongly consider consider posting him as a cheater and sharing the link widely. 

Get yourself checked for stds

Goodluck


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> Poly said there was no "genital contact" - may be the most humiliating day of my life, dumpster diving with her uncle's roommate (I *really* don't want to revisit that).





> I have never cheated. Love languages, his needs her needs, counseling, I have initiated all of that.


You did a poly, did both types of counseling, read books, gave her 2 chances and initiated it all. Sounds like you were working on your flaws and she was along for the ride.

Go ahead and rush although, I do not see it that way. You knew and were prepared for this to happen again. You've been living in this wasteland of limbo monitoring and waiting for the other shoe to drop for three years. It did. Move on and work on you.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Lon said:


> True, but on the other hand a +5 on the outside who is a +50 still looks like a +5. Don't underestimate the power of physical attraction, obviously it is capable of making many people make dumb choices.


The vast majority of people greatly overuse the words "smoking hot", gorgeous, knockout, etc. Easily, the majority of women out there can look hot by simply: being at a healthy weight for your height and bone structure, having a reasonable amount of symmetry in your face, knowing how to wear your hair so that it compliments your face and knowing how to apply make up properly. And after all of that, there is no objective beauty scale out there anyways. Some guys prefer a girl to have an hour glass figure and would find a slender woman with A cups to look emaciated. Others would find the slender A cup girl to look hot and think the hour glass shaped girl is fat. To a certain extent, there is some objectivity to it. But that objectivity only goes into how close to the ideal weight a woman is given her height and bone structure. That plus a reasonable face is where objective looks stop, and the rest is all subjective.


----------



## Lon

Plan 9 from OS said:


> The vast majority of people greatly overuse the words "smoking hot", gorgeous, knockout, etc. Easily, the majority of women out there can look hot by simply: being at a healthy weight for your height and bone structure, having a reasonable amount of symmetry in your face, knowing how to wear your hair so that it compliments your face and knowing how to apply make up properly. And after all of that, there is no objective beauty scale out there anyways. Some guys prefer a girl to have an hour glass figure and would find a slender woman with A cups to look emaciated. Others would find the slender A cup girl to look hot and think the hour glass shaped girl is fat. To a certain extent, there is some objectivity to it. But that objectivity only goes into how close to the ideal weight a woman is given her height and bone structure. That plus a reasonable face is where objective looks stop, and the rest is all subjective.


I know this is a wild tangent from the problems on this thread, but there are points I agree with and disagree with. Agreed that those descriptions can easily be over-used, and I agree that most women (rather, people) have the capacity to be physically attractive. And while a lot of those traits are within a person, and there is so much variety in what "smoking hot" can apply to, even for one individual onlooker, I do disagree that it's not universal - the "it" factor is very tangible.

Just this morning I happened to see a strikingly attractive woman walking and I happened to see her a little while later - many people would consider her plain, and not understand why she is getting all the looks she was getting. She was wearing no make up, tight jeans and a plain greyish sweater, looked like she had acne and her hair was pulled back tight... but I watching her walk stirred something in me and I watched two other guys completely gawk at her too. She was thin and short but could easily have put on another 25-30 pounds and still be "smoking hot". She was talking to a friend and was cussing and sounded harsh and mean, and for her it didn't take away an ounce of sexual attraction.

I have also seen CERTAIN busty women have the same effect on men around them, the same way certain men can make women around them swoon even if they don't possess any of the same physical traits as some other man they'd swoon for.

My point is physical attraction is a LOT more objective than most people would like to think, and not for the reasons we try to make excuses or justifications for. The objective measures that cause physical attraction are 1) fitness 2) health 3) symmetry and build... such measures don't care if you have an "ugly" face so long as your facial features appear symmetrical and unblemished. For men it's all about the shoulders and for women it's all about the hips. Narrow waists help in both genders to define those primary physical features, but not always necessary if those features are prominent enough on their own.


----------



## Lon

But with all that being said, just because someone is pretty it's still no valid reason to put up with any of their sh!t.


----------



## Elizabeth001

Didn't they do a study with infants some years ago about what our culture refers to as "beautiful" people? I'm too tired to google. Anyway, they showed the babies different pictures of faces and they reacted much more positive to the "pretty" ones v/s the plain (or less) ones. I guess its human nature. 

Weird thought: You don't see many paintings, if any, of any short, fat, and/or ugly angels. They are all "perfect". 

And while I'm on Angels, amen Lon. 

ROFL


----------



## Lon

Elizabeth001 said:


> Didn't they do a study with infants some years ago about what our culture refers to as "beautiful" people? I'm too tired to google. *Anyway, they showed the babies different pictures of faces and they reacted much more positive to the "pretty" ones v/s the plain (or less) ones. I guess its human nature*.
> 
> Weird thought: You don't see many paintings, if any, of any short, fat, and/or ugly angels. They are all "perfect".
> 
> And while I'm on Angels, amen Lon.
> 
> ROFL


I'm not sure if physical attraction/repulsion is inherent right at birth, I'm wondering just how much social conditioning those babies in the study have already had by the time researchers showed them pictures? Could it be just that the "prettier" ones just resembled those that looked more like the parents and other people those babies were already familiar with, and that "ugly" people just seemed more unfamiliar?

And yes, even the angels in paintings and sculptures were p'shopped back then by Michaelangelo, DaVinci and others.


----------



## Elizabeth001

Lol. 

Now I will have to google that experiment. I can't remember all of the parameters but it was very interesting.


----------



## Elizabeth001

Dang...you made me do it. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2566458/


----------



## just got it 55

happyman64 said:


> I consider myself average as well. When I was young all my GF's were hot. My fiancé that shattered me was a model. It is funny how we are shaped by events in our life.
> 
> I never dated a woman that spent more time looking at themselves in mirrors or had to be constantly validated by me.
> 
> I never dated a tall, slim knockout. A woman that others would always stop to stare at or comment on.
> 
> When I brought my future wife home to meet my parents my father told my mother that night I would marry her. My mother asked why. All my Dad could say was look at her. She is totally opposite of all the other girls I dated.
> 
> That is true.
> 
> But what I realized over time was what I truly needed in a partner.
> 
> Hot (tall, lean and mean) is great but over time short, curvy and cute is just as good.
> 
> But beneath the skin I needed honesty to a fault. I needed loyalty and respect. I needed a partner to understand that I was in it for the long haul. That means forever.
> 
> I found that. I dated my wife 6 years to confirm it. We never lived together.
> 
> And to date she has not disappointed me yet. And I will never give her a reason to ever lose faith in me.
> 
> So here's to being average. And having a relationship with someone that is average.
> 
> Average rules in my book. Go find someone average and have a great life. You deserve it.
> 
> HM


HM Wives like ours that are "Average" who live life with the conviction of honor remain faithful are smart and cute are far from average.Incredible nurturing mothers and amazing lovers are in fact rare.

Someone posted maybe in their sign line

"The more I read here the more I love my wife"

55


----------



## Satya

Lon said:


> Don't underestimate the power of physical attraction, obviously it is capable of making many people make dumb choices.


I try never to underestimate your point, as it's just simple truth. Glad you pointed it out. It can create a rather large blind spot, however... and that goes for both sexes.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Lon said:


> I'm not sure if physical attraction/repulsion is inherent right at birth, I'm wondering just how much social conditioning those babies in the study have already had by the time researchers showed them pictures? Could it be just that the "prettier" ones just resembled those that looked more like the parents and other people those babies were already familiar with, and that "ugly" people just seemed more unfamiliar?
> 
> And yes, even the angels in paintings and sculptures were p'shopped back then by *Michaelangelo, DaVinci* and others.


Interestingly, the renaissance and baroque painters had a different view of attractiveness several hundreds of years ago vs today. As you mentioned, some objective measures of attractiveness do exist - like facial symmetry and some measurements of body type. But that only goes so far. Several hundred years ago, a woman with curves was the knockout. 










Today, this is the knockout.


Societal tastes have changed. How much of that is innate in our makeup and how much of that is external conditioning, I don't know.


----------



## Lon

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Interestingly, the renaissance and baroque painters had a different view of attractiveness several hundreds of years ago vs today. As you mentioned, some objective measures of attractiveness do exist - like facial symmetry and some measurements of body type. But that only goes so far. Several hundred years ago, a woman with curves was the knockout.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today, this is the knockout.
> 
> 
> Societal tastes have changed. How much of that is innate in our makeup and how much of that is external conditioning, I don't know.


Mainstream artists from those periods mainly had to work with male models and would augment on the breasts and female faces. So the reason a lot of the women in paintings and sculptures were so bulky and muscular wasnt because that look was more fashionable, it was just because no decent women would pose nude in front of a man.

https://renresearch.wordpress.com/2...y-are-michelangelos-women-so-muscular-part-1/


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Lon said:


> Mainstream artists from those periods mainly had to work with male models and would augment on the breasts and female faces. So the reason a lot of the women in paintings and sculptures were so bulky and muscular wasnt because that look was more fashionable, it was just because no decent women would pose nude in front of a man.
> 
> https://renresearch.wordpress.com/2...y-are-michelangelos-women-so-muscular-part-1/


OK, but why wouldn't the Renaissance painters feminize the male models to reflect a more ideal look if the objective beauty for a woman was the Kate Moss look? Despite the lack of female models, the painters still had plenty of talent to make a beautiful woman who would conform with the perception of beauty back then.

We've probably derailed this thread enough, but here is an article pointing out how the "ideal woman" changed thru the years. I guess the look I posted above is not the ideal anymore. Seems like the culture is changing again and the booty is coming into vogue. Not surprising given the popularity of the more recent pop stars plus Kim Kardashian...

http://www.buzzfeed.com/juliegerstein/what-the-ideal-body-looked-like-over-the-past-100#.lgXk64VEyA


----------



## ThePheonix

If you look at the stats on porn sites, you'll see the "full figure/ big naturals" have the most traffic. In public, men, and women I guess, want to be seen with what they think others want. In private/the sack, its often a different story. Like I say, they all have the same plumbing. Get one that everybody else ain't using.


----------



## ThePheonix

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Today, this is the knockout.


But sometimes you have to go with what feels right.


----------



## Lon

No, I find that once every few decades the fashion world (and what the public gets exposed to because of it) makes a wild deviation, but then soon begins a quick correction and gets back to averaging what people in almost all cultures find physically attractive. For the recent "Kim Kardashian" era, surgical butt augmentation has become a novelty, but underlying whatever the fashion world is up to, people are still most physically attracted to the same basic features (hip/waist or shoulder/waist ratio, symmetry and health) they have been for millennia. I could be transported to any year in the past thousand years, and would ogle the very same women that the men of that generation do. If Kim Kardashian was transported to any year, she'd be ogled (but would probably not be a celebrity since her fashion choices wouldn't be nearly as embraced).

Relating this back to the OP, if he's still around, so your W is physically attractive but how does that improve your current situation in ANY way whatsoever? You didn't "luck" out with her, you compromised for someone (knowingly or not) that had character flaws and low self-esteem in exchange for eye candy. How did that work out for you? You are letting fear dictate/limit your potential, fear that if you let her go you will end up with a downgrade. I'm saying that the current model is defective and will never work the way you need her to anyways, so how glimmery she looks serves you no purpose... getting her out of your life is the first stage of upgrade for you, potentially meeting a future partner whom you can have a functional relationship with (regardless of her physical rank) is the second stage of upgrade, and even if you want to be choosy about looks, there are tons of incredibly attractive, high-quality women out there, so make your focus about becoming a good mate for one.


----------



## ThePheonix

Lon said:


> You are letting fear dictate/limit your potential, fear that if you let her go you will end up with a downgrade.


As far as I'm concerned, any guy with that philosophy pretty much deserves what he gets. Ain't a woman on this earth that looks good enough to cause me to put up with the crap that some of these guys take because, "she's so beautiful and I love her so much". 
I can go anywhere and find women that will meet my criteria. When you get my age, you see how bad guys fu-ked up by going with the chick they find beautiful rather than the one that would truly love them. I'd rather drive my own truck that belonged to me than a Mercedes I have to pay for that's a pool vehicle.


----------



## farsidejunky

ThePheonix said:


> I'd rather drive my own truck that belonged to me than a Mercedes I have to pay for that's a pool vehicle.


This should be a sticky in CWI.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Societal tastes have changed. How much of that is innate in our makeup and how much of that is external conditioning, I don't know.


Human nature is to want what you can't have. Rarity is what makes certain traits desirable.

600 years ago everyone was skinny and starving so a fat chick was considered hot.

Now with the obesity epidemic in full swing, everyone is fat so men are into skinny girls. 

No mystery here. Simple example of supply and demand.


----------



## happy as a clam

BetrayedDad said:


> No mystery here. Simple example of supply and demand.


Gotta agree here, BD. College ECO 101 (or common sense, for that matter!). Spot on.


----------



## happy as a clam

*Ummm... gotta disagree with "today's knockout -- @thephoenix, you're right. Your hot-chick pic is much more in line with what people find attractive today.

Maybe Kate Moss was the "standard" 20 years ago??? But Kate Moss was arrested (multiple times in multiple countries) for possession of heroin, and she is a KNOWN heroin addict... not to mention bulimic and a slave to her modeling "career" (bingeing and purging, which she has admitted to many times). So I hardly think that a strung-out-heroin-addict is desirable for most guys... She has ZERO muscle tone and looks quite sickly.
*


*HERE is what I think most men would like when they think of a healthy, "perfect" lover...* Totally speaking off the cuff here... assuming what men want. (never assume, right?)


----------



## BetrayedDad

Man here, very good assumption.


----------



## ConanHub

happy as a clam said:


> *Ummm... gotta disagree with "today's knockout -- @thephoenix, you're right. Your hot-chick pic is much more in line with what people find attractive today.
> 
> Maybe Kate Moss was the "standard" 20 years ago??? But Kate Moss was arrested (multiple times in multiple countries) for possession of heroin, and she is a KNOWN heroin addict... not to mention bulimic and a slave to her modeling "career" (bingeing and purging, which she has admitted to many times). So I hardly think that a strung-out-heroin-addict is desirable for most guys... She has ZERO muscle tone and looks quite sickly.
> *
> 
> 
> *HERE is what I think most men would like when they think of a healthy, "perfect" lover...* Totally speaking off the cuff here... assuming what men want. (never assume, right?)
> 
> 
> She has a nice smile.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happy as a clam

ConanHub said:


> She has a nice smile.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh for crying out loud @ConanHub... just SAY IT!!!

 :rofl:


----------



## happy as a clam

BetrayedDad said:


> *Man here, very good assumption.*


_*devilish grin*_

Am I on to something here???


----------



## alexm

ButtPunch said:


> Every codependent on here stays for the kids when that excuse is available. Battered women like to stay married for the kids also. We agree to disagree.


In some cases, yes, in some cases, no.

In this case, OP seems completely genuine about wanting to be with his kids every day, not every second day, or every weekend.

But yes, sometimes this is used as an excuse because of one's co-dependency. That, I am not disagreeing with. I don't believe that to be the case with this.


----------



## GusPolinski

She's very pretty, and clearly very fit.

Still... I like a bit more to "grab onto", especially in the hip/thigh/butt region.

I love, Love, LOVE her hair, by the way.


----------



## alexm

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Interestingly, the renaissance and baroque painters had a different view of attractiveness several hundreds of years ago vs today. As you mentioned, some objective measures of attractiveness do exist - like facial symmetry and some measurements of body type. But that only goes so far. Several hundred years ago, a woman with curves was the knockout.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today, this is the knockout.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Societal tastes have changed. How much of that is innate in our makeup and how much of that is external conditioning, I don't know.


What is deemed "attractive" in society is on a perpetual cycle.

We're currently at the beginnings of a "new" cycle, in which curvy/rubenesque/whatever is starting to come back in fashion, and a size 2 with fake boobs is not. Remember when fake t**s were all the rage? Not so much any more.

I think people tend to be inundated with what is deemed to be "sexy", and they reach a point where something different is required to get excited about, at least in terms of how women appear, anyway. (What women view in men doesn't seem to have changed at all in the last 1000 years! Tall, muscular, strong.)


----------



## BetrayedDad

alexm said:


> (What women view in men doesn't seem to have changed at all in the last 1000 years! Tall, muscular, strong.)


You must not have seen the recent "dad bod" thread....

Warning, viewer discretion is advised: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/265914-its-official-young-women-dig-dad-bods.html

I'm fairly certain its a sign of the impending apocalypse.


----------



## alexm

BetrayedDad said:


> You must not have seen the recent "dad bod" thread....
> 
> Warning, viewer discretion is advised: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/265914-its-official-young-women-dig-dad-bods.html
> 
> I'm fairly certain its a sign of the impending apocalypse.


Maybe some of the women here will weigh in!

Magic Mike, or chubby Chris Pratt?

http://ca.eonline.com/eol_images/En...0-634.Magic-Mike-Channing-Tatum.ms.090314.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/46646/3484278-6682441335-chris.jpg


----------



## Bob Davis

post 227, too many "chest freckles"


----------



## BetrayedDad

I like to think of them as "targets". 

Did I just say that?!? 

I'm going to shut up now before I get into trouble.


----------



## JohnA

Enough on this. Can e get back to Zack-00? 

Start a new thread !

"get a clue, get a grip, get a life"


----------



## GusPolinski

BetrayedDad said:


> I like to think of them as "targets".
> 
> Did I just say that?!?
> 
> I'm going to shut up now before I get into trouble.


Ha!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

JohnA said:


> Enough on this. Can e get back to Zack-00?
> 
> Start a new thread !
> 
> "get a clue, get a grip, get a life"


LOL. Read more threads, this happens all of the time. When he comes back it will be business as usual. 
Relax.


----------



## Zack-00

alexm said:


> In some cases, yes, in some cases, no.
> 
> In this case, OP seems completely genuine about wanting to be with his kids every day, not every second day, or every weekend.
> 
> But yes, sometimes this is used as an excuse because of one's co-dependency. That, I am not disagreeing with. I don't believe that to be the case with this.


I have read "co-dependent no more". Is there some of that? I think everyone is a little bit co-dependent. I will say unequivocally that if my kids were graduated, I would be single shortly after. There is no way I would bite my tongue, walk on eggshells, etc., just for "us".

We (I) have dropped the separating bomb on the kids, so the major deterrent has been overcome. Still working on the logistics as I want mediation vs. litigation so I am being nice while trying not to provide false hope.


----------



## Zack-00

I'll add that, in all honesty, because she is still keeping back some details and truth it isn't as difficult to be steadfast. If I thought she had truly come clean, was sincerely remorseful, and pro-actively outlined a plan of self-discipline and improvement, I might consider a legal separation and counseling to see where it takes us - eight more years until youngest is out of school. Maybe the separation would reveal to her that she doesn't have it too bad.


----------



## ThePheonix

Unfortunately kids are collateral damage no matter what you do. The thing that is as bad or worse on the kids as parents separating is staying together and them watching both of you on a slow burn and your life getting suck out of you. You sure as hell ain't fooling them.


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> I'll add that, in all honesty, because *she is still keeping back some details and truth* it isn't as difficult to be steadfast. If I thought she had truly come clean, was sincerely remorseful, and pro-actively outlined a plan of self-discipline and improvement, I might consider a legal separation and counseling to see where it takes us - eight more years until youngest is out of school. Maybe the separation would reveal to her that she doesn't have it too bad.


Really? But she said she'd be the "best wife ever", right?

LOLOLOLOL


----------



## G.J.

ConanHub said:


> She has a nice smile.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not to be picky ...which i am

Too thin and nasty silicon


----------



## BetrayedDad

Zack-00 said:


> I'll add that, in all honesty, because she is still keeping back some details and truth it isn't as difficult to be steadfast.


I'll agree 100% with you on this part. She's making the decision for you to "run for the hills" a no brainer. I wouldn't however take her back under any circumstances, even if she fains "remorse". How many times do you need to have a knife plunged into your back?

You gave her enough chances, she squandered EVERY SINGLE ONE. Kids are not enough reason to stay. They deserve happy parents even if that means apart. If your stbx has any conscious left then their sadness is on her, not you.


----------



## terrence4159

Well to make you laugh buddy, you say your wife is a 9......my first wife was....well body a 7 maybe face a 2.....I married ugly because I thought well she ugly she won't cheat...........at least your wife is a nine mine was a 4 and cheated. Lol


----------



## 3putt

terrence4159 said:


> Well to make you laugh buddy, you say your wife is a 9......my first wife was....well body a 7 maybe face a 2.....I married ugly because I thought well she ugly she won't cheat...........at least your wife is a nine mine was a 4 and cheated. Lol


You ain't right.

LOL


----------



## Nucking Futs

terrence4159 said:


> Well to make you laugh buddy, you say your wife is a 9......my first wife was....well body a 7 maybe face a 2.....I married ugly because I thought well she ugly she won't cheat...........at least your wife is a nine mine was a 4 and cheated. Lol


You married a butterface?


----------



## Mr Blunt

Zack, I hope you live in Georgia or West Virginia


In many states, including Washington, courts in custody cases may consider the wishes of a child in terms of which parent he would prefer to live with after the divorce is granted. However, according to the American Bar Association, only two states, Georgia and West Virginia, give a child who is 14 or older the absolute right to decide which parent he's going to live with. In every other state, the judge decides where a child will live according to the "best interests of the child" standard. In short, a child in Washington state can express his preference to the court, but a judge decides where he will reside by designating one parent as the "primary residential parent."

When Can a Child Decide to Live With the Other Divorced Parent by Washington State Law? | LegalZoom: Legal Info


----------



## alexm

Zack-00 said:


> I'll add that, in all honesty, because she is still keeping back some details and truth it isn't as difficult to be steadfast. If I thought she had truly come clean, was sincerely remorseful, and pro-actively outlined a plan of self-discipline and improvement, I might consider a legal separation and counseling to see where it takes us - eight more years until youngest is out of school. Maybe the separation would reveal to her that she doesn't have it too bad.


You obviously know this, but that's the mark of true remorse - coming clean about everything, on your terms. Because she's still hiding things, she's not putting you or the marriage first, she's putting herself (or possibly the OM) ahead of it all.

You guys are done, and as flippant a remark as this may sound, the kids will be all right. My wife came with two kids, and it's a 60/40 split between mom and stepdad (me) and with their father and stepmother. Almost 8 years since my wife and her ex split, 7 years since I came into the picture, and 5 since we moved in together.

And the kids are just fine.

Despite the difference in parenting styles between the two homes.


----------



## Zack-00

terrence4159 said:


> Well to make you laugh buddy, you say your wife is a 9......my first wife was....well body a 7 maybe face a 2.....I married ugly because I thought well she ugly she won't cheat...........at least your wife is a nine mine was a 4 and cheated. Lol


Funny at your expense, sorry. She is an 8, saw some 9's last night. Add in the grief factor and she becomes a 4,3,...


----------



## Zack-00

alexm said:


> You obviously know this, but that's the mark of true remorse - coming clean about everything, on your terms. Because she's still hiding things, she's not putting you or the marriage first, she's putting herself (or possibly the OM) ahead of it all.
> 
> You guys are done, and as flippant a remark as this may sound, the kids will be all right. My wife came with two kids, and it's a 60/40 split between mom and stepdad (me) and with their father and stepmother. Almost 8 years since my wife and her ex split, 7 years since I came into the picture, and 5 since we moved in together.
> 
> And the kids are just fine.
> 
> Despite the difference in parenting styles between the two homes.


I am trying to concentrate on how the kids could be better if we are both happy (at least me) instead of what it has been like for them. Wishful thinking and reminiscing is my enemy.


----------



## Zack-00

ThePheonix said:


> Unfortunately kids are collateral damage no matter what you do. The thing that is as bad or worse on the kids as parents separating is staying together and them watching both of you on a slow burn and your life getting suck out of you. You sure as hell ain't fooling them.


I'm starting to think my oldest would actually be relieved. I was trying to talk to her about what is happening and my stbxw kept eavesdropping and butting into our private conversation - acting crazy scared about what I was saying - and my daughter kept telling her to just let us talk and "go to bed". I'm proud of her as she is already more mature than mom, but it was pretty sad to see and put her in that position.


----------



## Zack-00

BetrayedDad said:


> I'll agree 100% with you on this part. She's making the decision for you to "run for the hills" a no brainer. I wouldn't however take her back under any circumstances, even if she fains "remorse". How many times do you need to have a knife plunged into your back?
> 
> You gave her enough chances, she squandered EVERY SINGLE ONE. Kids are not enough reason to stay. They deserve happy parents even if that means apart. If your stbx has any conscious left then their sadness is on her, not you.


I think she is actually starting to realize this (kids being miserable and future state) is on her right now, and it is taking its toll.


----------



## BetrayedDad

We reap what we sow. 

Accountability is cheater kryptonite.


----------



## alexm

Zack-00 said:


> I'm starting to think my oldest would actually be relieved. I was trying to talk to her about what is happening and my stbxw kept eavesdropping and butting into our private conversation - acting crazy scared about what I was saying - and my daughter kept telling her to just let us talk and "go to bed". I'm proud of her as she is already more mature than mom, but it was pretty sad to see and put her in that position.


See? She'll be fine! Most kids are very aware of what's going on, and if they've been raised properly, they know what's what.

My wife's oldest (15 now) is very much like this, and very protective of his mother. He is aware of how his father treated her while they were together (without great detail, of course), and also sees how he occasionally talks to her to this day. He's not a bad guy, he just tends to speak to her with an almost imperceptible disrespect at times, especially when it comes to how the kids are being raised, as well as the financial aspect of it all. For example, he counts every damn penny he spends on them and expects an equal amount from her/our side. When something (like sports) is a shared cost, he will want cheques for 50% of the amount back if he covered it. To the penny. "You owe me $201.42 for this".

The oldest picks up on all these stupid little things (among others), and recalls how their relationship was when they were together, and thus holds me to a very high standard - and good for him. He doesn't want his mother to have to deal with the same crap again.

They notice, trust me. And they can usually tell quickly who's in the right and who's in the wrong and form very accurate opinions.


----------



## badmemory

Zack-00 said:


> Funny at your expense, sorry. She is an 8, saw some 9's last night. Add in the grief factor and she becomes a 4,3,...


Yeah it's tough to be married to an attractive woman. You can see why the OM and other men covet my wife:

View attachment 36890


----------



## Lon

badmemory, I find that distasteful, picking on people with genetic facial disfigurement.


----------



## OldWolf57

Zack, you have done all you could, so even she now knows it over.
This time around, you have not even mentioned a poly, so she will withhold the rest, hoping you don't.

I say why spend the money, time, and mental anguish to do it.
She knows you know there was communication, so she's hoping she won't have to admit there was a hookup.
The find my phone turned off says it all.
She was at his house.

Stick to your guns, and keep talking to those kids. They will be Ok, but plenty of hugs from you will reassure them even more.

So sorry man, but you gave her all the rope she wanted. She was just to self involved to see it that way.


----------



## ThePheonix

I love how you're a real bastard if you make a racial slur according to some of the same people who are "offended and appalled think its fine and dandy to assign unflattering terms, and part of the so called urban dictionary, to unattractive people.


----------



## ThePheonix

alexm said:


> He's not a bad guy, he just tends to speak to her with an almost imperceptible disrespect at times, especially when it comes to how the kids are being raised, as well as the financial aspect of it all. For example, he counts every damn penny he spends on them and expects an equal amount from her/our side. When something (like sports) is a shared cost, he will want cheques for 50% of the amount back if he covered it. To the penny. "You owe me $201.42 for this".


He's not a bad guy; just a real SOB. Why doen't she tell him to go F himself?


----------



## Nucking Futs

I am offended and appalled that you love how you're a real bastard if you make a racial slur according to some of the same people who are "offended and appalled think its fine and dandy to assign unflattering terms, and part of the so called urban dictionary, to unattractive people. 

That's genuine copy and paste posting there, you don't get that everyday.:grin2:


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ThePheonix said:


> I love how you're a real bastard if you make a racial slur according to some of the same people who are "offended and appalled think its fine and dandy to assign unflattering terms, and part of the so called urban dictionary, to unattractive people.


Irony and hypocrisy makes us human. Welcome to the human race.


----------



## RV9

Next time she butts into a conversation between you and your kids, tell her it's a family matter and she's not one of the family anymore.


----------



## ThePheonix

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Irony and hypocrisy makes us human. Welcome to the human race.


----------



## terrence4159

trust me zack i laugh about it now all the time, she did me a favor. there is light at the end of the tunnel, im super happy and she is super miserable. hang in there buddy.


----------



## Zack-00

terrence4159 said:


> trust me zack i laugh about it now all the time, she did me a favor. there is light at the end of the tunnel, im super happy and she is super miserable. hang in there buddy.


Thx.


----------



## terrence4159

ohh yeah you are going to be on a roller coaster ride from hell for awhile. i feel your pain, but one day you will wake up and be good, like the weight of the world off your shoulders....many days from now but it will happen.

me on that day i went out and got a tattoo of a knife sticking out of my back with my ex wifes name in it....i dont recommend that but boy it worked wonders for me


----------



## Zack-00

So she just told me she went and took a poly on her own. Tired of being accused, everyone thinking the worst, etc.

The questions were specific, and general (was he ever in our house or she in his, any genital contact, any other sex outside the marriage). Apparently I have access to the tester and the report.

I haven't read it yet, but don't understand how she could say no to PA on the first one when she told me what happened physically, got tested for std's, etc. and pass.

Hmm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> *So she just told me she went and took a poly on her own.* Tired of being accused, everyone thinking the worst, etc.
> 
> The questions were specific, and general (was he ever in our house or she in his, any genital contact, any other sex outside the marriage). Apparently I have access to the tester and the report.
> 
> I haven't read it yet, but don't understand how she could say no to PA on the first one when she told me what happened physically, got tested for std's, etc. and pass.
> 
> Hmm.


LOL... WHAT?!?

:lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl:


----------



## Zack-00

Ok. I don't understand the LOL. If it is a reputable tester, legit, etc....

She didn't do a DIY poly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

GusPolinski said:


> LOL... WHAT?!?
> 
> :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl:


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Zack-00 said:


> So she just told me she went and took a poly on her own. Tired of being accused, everyone thinking the worst, etc.
> 
> The questions were specific, and general (was he ever in our house or she in his, any genital contact, any other sex outside the marriage). Apparently I have access to the tester and the report.
> 
> I haven't read it yet, but don't understand how she could say no to PA on the first one when she told me what happened physically, got tested for std's, etc. and pass.
> 
> Hmm.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like someone's plan A has fallen apart.


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> Ok. I don't understand the LOL. If it is a reputable tester, legit, etc....
> 
> She didn't do a DIY poly.


Geez, do I really have to explain this...?

If she knows what the questions are going to be before she's even asked, it's all the easier for her to get away w/ giving LIES for answers. Plus, this isn't her first rodeo w/ a poly.

Oh, and polys are CRAP. They're good for nothing more than evoking either parking lot confessions or Google searches for "how to beat a polygraph".

You KNOW that she's lying. Get back in the damn driver's seat, FFS.


----------



## Zack-00

Sorry, no poly expert and I don't deal with this more than every three to fifteen years...so I am ignorant.

However, I'm trying to follow the logic.
So:
1. take the test, if I fail, no one the wiser that I took it, keep lying. 
2. If I pass "hey this is irrefutable proof".


----------



## farsidejunky

Serious question: why do you even care at this point?

How can you expect others to respect you when your willingness to even entertain this crap from her shows you don't respect yourself?


----------



## dash74

Zack-00 said:


> Ok. I don't understand the LOL. If it is a reputable tester, legit, etc....
> 
> She didn't do a DIY poly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe


----------



## 3putt

dash74 said:


> Maybe


Maybe she's a bit more seasoned at this than the garden variety WS. A preemptive action to try and mitigate damages, perhaps?

Okay, that _might_ be a stretch, but I can't recall any WS going and taking their own poly without telling the BS and then offering up the results and 'access' to the poly dude.

That's a new one on me. Anyone else ever heard of this?


----------



## Zack-00

farsidejunky said:


> Serious question: why do you even care at this point?


Serious answer: Because you want to believe them.

You want to believe that they care about you. You want to believe that all the time and effort wasn't a waste. It doesn't make it true, but you want it to be.

I understand the necessity for harshness on this forum, you may have to have the rose colored glasses beaten off your face. Well, that's why I'm here.

I think I have seen it myself when people start talking about their flaws and dropped responsibility when describing how their SO betrayed them.

So, when they ask for forgiveness again, another chance, it *seems* like they are making every effort - help me and others blow holes in it instead of shaming us away.


----------



## farsidejunky

I have been cheated on, and I have had a spouse walk away. But I am far from jaded.

Most who know me here will probably say I am more optimistic than many.

I am also naive in a lot of ways, especially when I am emotionally involved.

This last statement is why I was hard on you. Because that is exactly what I am seeing from you.


----------



## Zack-00

farsidejunky said:


> I have been cheated on, and I have had a spouse walk away. But I am far from jaded.
> 
> Most who know me here will probably say I am more optimistic than many.
> 
> I am also naive in a lot of ways, especially when I am emotionally involved.
> 
> This last statement is why I was hard on you. Because that is exactly what I am seeing from you.


Fair enough. I appreciate everyone's responses, experience derived from their own pain. How am I being naive - I am analytical by nature but emotions screw that up.


----------



## farsidejunky

The fact that you are even giving pause to her own poly should give you pause.


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> Serious answer: Because you want to believe them.
> 
> You want to believe that they care about you. You want to believe that all the time and effort wasn't a waste. It doesn't make it true, but you want it to be.
> 
> I understand the necessity for harshness on this forum, you may have to have the rose colored glasses beaten off your face. Well, that's why I'm here.
> 
> I think I have seen it myself when people start talking about their flaws and dropped responsibility when describing how their SO betrayed them.
> 
> *So, when they ask for forgiveness again, another chance, it *seems* like they are making every effort - help me and others blow holes in it instead of shaming us away.*


Zack, you HAVE to draw the line somewhere. How many "one more" chances are you going to give her?

She's never going to stop. EVER.

She's got your number. She knows how to play you. She knows how to lull you into lowering your guard and then BAM... she's at it again.

She's never going to stop.

NEVER.


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> Fair enough. I appreciate everyone's responses, experience derived from their own pain. How am I being naive - I am analytical by nature but emotions screw that up.


Then take your emotions out of the equation. I mean... you HAVE to do that. Your WW is stomping on your heart and using your emotions against you at EVERY turn.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By ZACK*
> I told her last time if there was "anything in the future she hides from me" she should consider it as her telling me she wants a divorce and I'll accommodate it.
> We have been together for basically ever, high school. I am letting her raise our kids for 50% of the time, and I lose 50%, I will get killed with alimony, etc.



If I have read your comments correctly your wife has betrayed you at least 3 times. By betrayed I mean that she rejected you and replaced you with another man in her emotions and maybe also her body.


I understand that you are fearful because you will lose 50% of your time with your children and will get “…killed with alimony” In addition, you are still somewhat emotionally attached to her and have been emotionally weakened by her latest betrayal.
What I see so far is that you are going to have to make a choice of the least damaging options. You know most of those options but I am going to ask you a few questions.


*1	How content would you be with her and yourself for the next years by knowing that your wife disrespects you and has chosen several men over you?

2	Would your children be hurt less by you staying with your wife or by you separating/divorcing and rebuilding the damage that she has done?

3	Would you become more self-sufficient with her or without her?*


----------



## ConanHub

I'm consistently, perpetually amazed that men like you exist.

You are so delusional that you want members of an anonymous forum to blow holes in your WWs pathetic and obvious lies which are so clear that your belief in her borders on illness?

You are living with a flesh and blood lizard and won't see it. This forum is powerless against your delirium.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eric1

Did the poly say that she hasn't had three affairs over the marriage and wasn't seeking out others?

Who gives a **** if she blew him 8 times instead of 12 at this point?


----------



## bandit.45

ConanHub said:


> I'm consistently, perpetually amazed that men like you exist.
> 
> You are so delusional that you want members of an anonymous forum to blow holes in your WWs pathetic and obvious lies which are so clear that your belief in her borders on illness?
> 
> You are living with a flesh and blood lizard and won't see it. This forum is powerless against your delirium.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



She's a Gila Monster... The venomous type of lizard.


----------



## alexm

ThePheonix said:


> He's not a bad guy; just a real SOB. Why doen't she tell him to go F himself?


He's neither, really, he's just an insecure macho man, and she knows this. Although she has put him in his place occasionally (it's difficult, because the kids are always around when he is), it solves nothing.

If she (or I) tell him what we think of the stick that's up his a**, it's not going to make him lighten up.

As far as exes go, he's not difficult to deal with. He's more of an annoyance than anything, and we can both, at times, chuckle about his anal retentiveness.


----------



## Chaparral

Remind me. What has she exactly admitted to? She's given more than one version and then changed them.

So what is she saying is the truth now? I would definitely go see the poly operator and check to see if law enforcement uses him.

What exactly is she claiming was proved by the poly?


----------



## convert

Chaparral said:


> Remind me. What has she exactly admitted to? She's given more than one version and then changed them.
> 
> So what is she saying is the truth now? I would definitely go see the poly operator and check to see if law enforcement uses him.
> 
> What exactly is she claiming was proved by the poly?


I agree

Did she admit something physical on this latest incident before the polygraph?

did she get std testing before the polygraph and if so why if here was nothing physical?


----------



## GusPolinski

Guys, none of this matters. First, polys aren't reliable enough to take them as gospel either way. Second, even if you "believe" in polys, this one was TAINTED from the start.


----------



## ButtPunch

You are trying too hard to hang on to this marriage. You gave her a second
chance and she blew it. Accept that it's over. She went and took a poly
on her own. I'm not buying it and neither should you. Why on Earth would she not 
of had you with her? Maybe so she could control the situation. I couldn't imagine
having to be in "spy" mode this many years after the first cheating incident. That kind
of living can't be good for you. Go find a good woman...they exist. You can retire the VAR 
and live happily ever after once you get over this cheater.


----------



## Zack-00

To clarify:
She had a PA 15 years ago. Although she now says no P to the A after admitting oral and getting tested for std. I always assumed it was full physical.

She had an EA which could have been physical 3 years ago. My lawyer describes it as "she was dating". I demanded a poly then called it off as I was just going to divorce but needed to get my finances in order. She took the poly anyway. No genital contact according to poly. Told myself I was staying for the kids. I deliver ultimatum first time about chatting/hiding any men.

2 years ago more Facebook chat and hiding with different guy. I find it, blow it up too early to see how far she would have gone as he was 2000 miles away but coming to town. See a lawyer. Hesitate.

1 month ago, starts talking about friend of friends (posom) going through divorce, wife is crazy. My radar is up.
She says: talked and deleted fb. Met him at coffee (verified). More fb deleted msgs. Day I leave for camping with kids she goes to his apartment and they rode together for dinner at friends house, then rode back. She says she went straight home, then deleted any kind of history about his address, hence the findmyiphone disabled. "I was just trying to help a friend".

Now, I accuse her of being at his place, she takes a poly on her own to prove she isn't lying about no physical contact. Had to give up other lies about where she was/trickle truth.. 

I told her I want a divorce and right now we are splitting time with kids and house. 

Apparently I am the world's dumbest gelatinous man living with a reptile from Hades.


----------



## Zack-00

Nm


----------



## ButtPunch

zack-00 said:


> to clarify:
> She had a pa 15 years ago. Although she now says no p to the a after admitting oral and getting tested for std. I always assumed it was full physical.
> 
> strike one!
> 
> she had an ea which could have been physical 3 years ago. My lawyer describes it as "she was dating". I demanded a poly then called it off as i was just going to divorce but needed to get my finances in order. She took the poly anyway. No genital contact according to poly. Told myself i was staying for the kids. I deliver ultimatum first time about chatting/hiding any men.
> 
> 
> strike two!
> 
> 
> 2 years ago more facebook chat and hiding with different guy. I find it, blow it up too early to see how far she would have gone as he was 2000 miles away but coming to town. See a lawyer. Hesitate.
> 
> strike three!
> 
> 
> 1 month ago, starts talking about friend of friends (posom) going through divorce, wife is crazy. My radar is up.
> She says: Talked and deleted fb. Met him at coffee (verified). More fb deleted msgs. Day i leave for camping with kids she goes to his apartment and they rode together for dinner at friends house, then rode back. She says she went straight home, then deleted any kind of history about his address, hence the findmyiphone disabled. "i was just trying to help a friend".
> 
> 
> strike four!
> 
> now, i accuse her of being at his place, she takes a poly on her own to prove she isn't lying about no physical contact. Had to give up other lies about where she was/trickle truth..
> 
> I told her i want a divorce and right now we are splitting time with kids and house.
> 
> Apparently i am the world's dumbest gelatinous man living with a reptile from hades.


get the divorce cuz this isn't going to change. There should never be this many second chances and this is why i think codependency is involved. MARRIAGE SHOULDN'T BE THIS DAMN HARD!


----------



## GusPolinski

Zack-00 said:


> To clarify:
> She had a PA 15 years ago. Although she now says no P to the A after admitting oral and getting tested for std. I always assumed it was full physical.
> 
> She had an EA which could have been physical 3 years ago. My lawyer describes it as "she was dating". I demanded a poly then called it off as I was just going to divorce but needed to get my finances in order. She took the poly anyway. No genital contact according to poly. Told myself I was staying for the kids. I deliver ultimatum first time about chatting/hiding any men.
> 
> 2 years ago more Facebook chat and hiding with different guy. I find it, blow it up too early to see how far she would have gone as he was 2000 miles away but coming to town. See a lawyer. Hesitate.
> 
> 1 month ago, starts talking about friend of friends (posom) going through divorce, wife is crazy. My radar is up.
> She says: talked and deleted fb. Met him at coffee (verified). More fb deleted msgs. Day I leave for camping with kids she goes to his apartment and they rode together for dinner at friends house, then rode back. She says she went straight home, then deleted any kind of history about his address, hence the findmyiphone disabled. "I was just trying to help a friend".
> 
> Now, I accuse her of being at his place, she takes a poly on her own to prove she isn't lying about no physical contact. Had to give up other lies about where she was/trickle truth..
> 
> I told her I want a divorce and right now we are splitting time with kids and house.
> 
> Apparently I am the world's dumbest gelatinous man living with a reptile from Hades.



So she took the first poly on her own as well...?

Oh dear Lord...


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## tom67

GusPolinski said:


> So she took the first poly on her own as well...?
> 
> Oh dear Lord...


Zack best of luck to you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSjK2Oqrgic


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## Tobyboy

Thing is, she went to great extremes to hide this latest "affair". She knew the consequences, but still did it. 

Like someone already said.....she'll never stop!!!

As for the poly she took, doesn't matter. She's a liar, with very loose boundaries. She'll continue to betray you for she has no respect for you!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dubsey

paraphrasing here as I don't remember the exact quote

"it's only a lie, if you don't believe it" - George Kostanza


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## Kallan Pavithran

GusPolinski said:


> So she took the first poly on her own as well...?
> 
> Oh dear Lord...


Next time he should go with her.......:crying:


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## farsidejunky

Zack, just tell her to stop. And when she doesn't, tell her to stop again. After all, it worked the first...what...three times? Certainly she won't use the lessons she learned in how better cover her tracks to do it a 4th time... Oh wait...


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## GusPolinski

Kallan Pavithran said:


> Next time he should go with her.......:crying:


There shouldn't BE a next time.


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## G.J.

You'd think she gets discount with the poly now


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## tom67

G.J. said:


> You'd think she gets discount with the poly now


Get a loyalty card buy 10 the 11th is free?
Anyway it's his life his choice.


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## naiveonedave

Zack-00 said:


> I told her I want a divorce and right now we are splitting time with kids and house.


For all you bagging on Zacky, it appears he is getting a D....


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## phillybeffandswiss

GusPolinski said:


> Guys, none of this matters. .


No, it doesn't matter to you, it matters to him. He has been wavering from the start so, we have to address the flaws to help him understand. We get people like this every week.


naiveonedave said:


> For all you bagging on Zacky, it appears he is getting a D....


Did you really ignore everything before that was posted?


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## GusPolinski

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, it doesn't matter to you, it matters to him. He has been wavering from the start so, we have to address the flaws to help him understand. We get people like his every week.


I get that, and that's exactly why I pointed out _why_ it doesn't matter.


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## naiveonedave

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, it doesn't matter to you, it matters to him. He has been wavering from the start so, we have to address the flaws to help him understand. We get people like this every week.
> 
> Did you really ignore everything before that was posted?


no, but if he is truly going to D, the rest is not that relevant.


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## phillybeffandswiss

naiveonedave said:


> no, but if he is truly going to D, the rest is not that relevant.


He has moved the divorce line as more relevant information appeared. So, we will disagree on what is relevant and the alleged "bagging" as well..


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## Lon

Zack-00 said:


> Serious answer: Because you want to believe them.
> 
> You want to believe that they care about you. You want to believe that all the time and effort wasn't a waste. It doesn't make it true, but you want it to be.
> *yes this is true, but they do care about you (in their cheater's way - they cared about what they could get out of you) and it wasn't a waste of time or effort (their time that is, because they expended less effort then they planned to)*
> 
> I understand the necessity for harshness on this forum, you may have to have the rose colored glasses beaten off your face. Well, that's why I'm here.
> *the harshness is just the damage of what your spouse did being reflected back at you, few here are ever "harsh" we are just objective.*
> 
> I think I have seen it myself when people start talking about their flaws and dropped responsibility when describing how their SO betrayed them.
> *yes, misplaced anger. doesn't matter how crappy of a marriage partner, nobody deserves betrayal, nor is that ever an effective method at restoring any kind of good for either partner. likewise victim-blaming yourself is not the solution to healing.*
> 
> So, when they ask for forgiveness again, another chance, it *seems* like they are making every effort - help me and others blow holes in it instead of shaming us away.
> *Cheaters have their own set of rules, which are just not compatible with those of a loyal spouse, trying to pick apart their errors using your rules is like trying to overcome Einsteins theory of special relativity.*


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## JohnA

Zack

At this point I do not understand why she wants to stay with you, what does she say? Her actions are not consisted with her words. What motivates her? in every case you mentioned she had a choice and choose to enbark on a path that harmed her marriage. These actions were all deal breakers. Approach this from an academic view point. Why ? primarilly to help tou build a better relationship with another women and your daughters.

Please start a new thread in LAD and discuss how involed with you daughters life's are you. Not just fishing trips but the day to day grind. Discuss what you are doing to help then build a life for themselves, both the what and the how. We all are familiar with daddy issues and the toxic effect it can have on a girl.s future. Discuss this and the pro-active actions you are taking to solve, In short the time, effort and focus you displayed on this topic. Do so and you will find peace. 

Zack I am being very serious here, please respond. Are or are not is your relationship worthy of the same effort and commitment you have shown on this thread ?


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## ThePheonix

JohnA said:


> Zack
> 
> At this point I do not understand why she wants to stay with you, what does she say? Her actions are not consisted with her words. What motivates her? in every case you mentioned she had a choice and choose to enbark on a path that harmed her marriage.



For the same reason a man does not want to move out of the house even if he's living in hell. People don't like change. She is conflicted by not wanting life alliterating changes with not wanting to be yoked to her husband.


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## JohnA

But by her actions she has chosen. At best Zack will spend a lifetime as a permeant Plan B. How will this situation effect his daughters? Does Zack want them to be like their mother? Does he want them to spend their life as a permeant Plan B like him,

I've seen how often "doing it for the kids" is actaully a smokescreen for someone's own selfish desires or cowardnesd. Blance is hard, caution and doubt are important, but so is action. 


Gibbs from NCIS has his rules, I have mine 

so once more into the breach my friends
For a coward dies a thousand deaths 
A brave man but once.


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## ThePheonix

JohnA said:


> I've seen how often "doing it for the kids" is actaully a smokescreen for someone's own selfish desires or cowardnesd.


Exactly. Moreover, staying for the kids does not help them have a "normal" childhood. I said earlier that living in a situation where parents are split up is oftentimes far better than living in a tomb with parents that are as cold as ice to each other.


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## happy as a clam

I can hardly bare to read this thread anymore.

Zack, if it's painful for anonymous posters, it must be INCREDIBLY painful for you. You're the one living this nightmare.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame

Zack - I'm very sorry that your marriage has turned out like this. We all enter into marriage with such high hopes. We think we're on the same page with our spouses.

When you find yourself betrayed multiple times, though, you have to accept that your idea of marriage simply isn't the same as hers. It probably never was. For me, the difference between the standard cheater and the serial cheater is that the first assumes going in that he/she will be faithful, while the second assumes that he/she won't. (The serial cheater believes that monogamy is unnatural and that we are all either in denial or giving lip service to social convention.)

Your WW acts like a serial cheater, sad to say. She seeks out other partners. She's not 'in love' with someone else that she can't stay away from. She's excited by being wanted by someone new - anyone new.

I don't think you two were ever on the same page. I hope you pursue the D. You'll heal and be much happier, in my opinion.


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## Dyokemm

"She seeks out other partners. She's not 'in love' with someone else that she can't stay away from. She's excited by being wanted by someone new - anyone new."

This is very insightful IMO.


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## Zack-00

alte Dame said:


> She's excited by being wanted by someone new - anyone new.


Yep


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## Augusto

Zack-00 said:


> Yep


 what's her number?

jusk Kidding


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## terrence4159

The next time she offers you to look at the poly results tell her thanks but no thanks. Tell her you don't care if she had nasty porn star sex with him. Tell her you don't care if she had a gangbag with all his friends....... You are done. She has lied to you enough and disrespected you for the last time.

Tell her you can't have a marriage without trust and even Jesus would not trust her or want to state married to her....tell her you want to make her happy and obviously you dont and you deserve a better woman.


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## eric1

She is trying to move the goal posts by taking the poly. Her implication is that if she didn't **** him it wasn't an affair 

An affair is what you define it as. I respectfully suggest that dating four guys while married would be considered pretty damning in of itself


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## Mr Blunt

*Zach, your wife does not have you as her number one man!

Zach, your wife does not have you as her number TWO man!

Zach, your wife does not have you as her number THREE man!*


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## MattMatt

Many people who are thieves do not like to be identified as a thief.

Well, that's just too bad!

People are defined by what they say but more so by what they DO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zack-00

I have had some pm's asking about status


We are in in-house separation. I am doing the 180 as I understand it to try and get myself mentally right, and focusing on the kids. This is tough on my oldest as she knows W and I are "not together" right now and is upset about where it is likely heading.

Met with a lawyer and outcomes financially are murky. My best bet may be to wait 2 months if I am going to file as W's employment situation will change for the better. Through phone records I know W has called lawyers, and likely had a consult and getting advice as well.

Same phone records show "friend" called (10 days after office episode) and W answered, call was 3 minutes. This set me off, right or wrong, she still doesn't see him for what he is, just a "friend" with no intentions. I think she is deluding herself, or just lying to herself about what SHE was getting out of it. "We got off track." "I was weak due to our problems." Etc. Of course she lied about the call even happening, then about content "I was afraid of a RO being filed..." Then she realized I knew from phone bill. All bs.

Will move to LAD or Going through...

I don't see a long term future with W. My caregiver and obligation instincts are conflicting with my personal feelings. I don't want to lose my family, but if W weren't part of that family I would be ok with that right now...

I'm also trying to convince myself I am doing her a disservice by not divorcing and giving her the opportunity to start over with someone else. I don't think I could ever trust again, nor likely cherish. Special was lost a long time ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss

The 180 is about you. You need to learn how to stop worrying about helping her. The divorce is for you and the kids. All you have to do is think about all the money, time and poor parenting that is occurring to remember this divorce as a positive. 
Every time you are monitoring calls, even for a few minutes or seconds, it is wasted time from yourself and your kids. 
Every time you visit a lawyer, it is wasted time away from your self and your kids.
Every dime you will spend on this divorce is wasted time away from yourself and your kids.
Every time you waste energy thinking about affairs and who she contacts is wasted time away from yourself and your kids

You are doing yourself a service by ending this viscous cycle you are in.


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