# Props to the Waywards



## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

I am pretty harsh on cheaters, but I must say I am impressed by the former cheaters who come here and risk triggering, as well as backlash, and name calling to help others. I think it really shows growth when a wayward who was once so selfish, is now doing something so unselfish.

I don't believe most people change or that a wayward can ever really deserve R, but it's hard not to recognize the change in the ones that switch teams and now work for the good guys.

This is not a love letter (I sill hate cheaters with the heat of a thousand suns), but just a shout out, because I see and may have unknowingly added to the bashing that sometimes happens here.

Anyway, props to the few of you who stick around.


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## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

People do learn from their mistakes. Not everyone, but enough actually do. Imagine that!


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## livinfree (Sep 7, 2012)

Thousand _white_ suns.

Yes it takes remarkable courage, a peek into their mind helps me very much to cope and understand.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

After seeing enough crazy things. 

I truly believe people make mistakes. People make really bad mistakes.

I think if they *TRULY* repentant and *TRULY* are remorseful and *YOU* *TRULY* can work it out. I believe everyone deserves a chance to make amends.

Conversely I don't think that a wayward should be beaten up 10 years later after an affair when they showed nothing but remorse and honesty for 10 years after the incident/episode. Assuming the affair didn't last 10 years itself. But a 3 month affair does not equate to numerous years of lash back is all I am saying.

Your Wayward has an affair, gets caught and see's the light and comes back and works HARD to fix the marriage he or she has ruined. They deserve some credit.

I also agree that a wayward spouse coming here should be given a decent go chance assuming they don't try to minimize the incident and down play how the BS might feel or should be feeling.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

I find I usually have no problems with the ones that stick around or the regulars, even if I'm not impressed with them to begin with. They tend to be the ones who feel remorse.


The ones who make a few posts looking for sympathy, then get offended when they're either bashed, told some hard truths, or not told what they want to hear and leave?? They tend to be the ones who simply feel guilt. Good riddance.

Still sometimes I do wish people would not come down so hard on the WS when they first post here. Not out of sympathy but I really do think it's a needed perspective for a lot of people here and I can't blame some for not sticking around. Triggers or not, this entire section is pretty much a big trigger anyway I imagine.

Also I've noticed if a WS sticks around long enough the bashing/criticism pretty much always dies down.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I believe we have potential to learn and grow from our mistakes every day of our lives. If a cheater realizes that their cheating was a mistake, IMO, there's no reason why they shouldn't learn and grow from it.

Having said that, I doubt that I would have it in me to give a cheater a second chance, but that isn't to say he would incapable of not repeating the same mistake with someone else. Just not with me.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

I feel the WS's first post is a good yard stick to gauge if they really have, or are about, turn the corner. Such a case was a wayward that posted on her BH's thread Yesterday. A lot of I's and me's. She seems sorry about the outcome/fallout of her cheating, but not much else.Hasn't turned the corner - Not even on the right street.

Then you read a post that makes you actually start feeling bad for that WS. You know that they get it - And you start to hope that it will work out for them.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

When a BS comes to this board, the best advise comes the many BS. However, after the intial things that need to be done, by far and away the best advice comes from the WS on this board.

It takes a lot to admit mistakes. It takes alot to face up to what you have done. I hope they get a second chance.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

illwill said:


> I don't believe most people change


Do you really believe this?

I don't know how old you are but at 46 I am nothing like the person I was at 20.

Everybody changes, don't they?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

illwill said:


> I don't believe most people change or that a wayward can ever really deserve R, but it's hard not to recognize the change in the ones that switch teams and now work for the good guys.


Perhaps most people don't change, but this doesn't mean that many can and do.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

This is probably a first. A thread giving any kind of "props" to WS's. As a former WS, who is 9 months into a reconciliation with my husband, I can tell you that it wasn't easy coming here, in the beginning, posting my story and then sticking around for the initial backlash.

I posted my original thread about 2 weeks after D-Day when I was still very much in the affair "fog," but I was not looking for approval for my poor choices, I was looking for answers, help, hope, understanding, guidance, direction, anything that could help me help my husband get through the devastation he was experiencing in the aftermath of D-Day. I wasn't even sure if he or I wanted to remain in the marriage or if it could or should be saved, but I was completely unprepared for the gut wrenching fallout that my infidelity was heaping on my husband, my children......... and then, myself. 

This was last June and I received my share of verbal assaults, harsh judgements and character assassination. Some of it was true (although, I didn't realize it at the time,) and some was not true. My husband "found" my thread within a day of my posting it and began one of his own. Our entire journey to reconciliation has been posted here, on TAM, in real time. 

We have both had IC and MC, but I can tell you that what we have gained from TAM has been the greatest resource in our recovery. I know that we wouldn't be as far as we are in our reconciliation without it. I'm not sure that we could have reconciled, at all.

There were plenty of times that I wanted to logoff and never come back in the first couple of months of posting, but something kept pulling me back.

I do think a lot of WS's (and BS's, as well) post their stories, and are completely unprepared for the initial onslaught from the TAM welcoming  committee. I fear that too many get scared away before they get the help that they are so desperately in need of. Unless my husband had been posting, as well, I probably would not have been able to handle the initial character assassination. Believe it or not, it was he who came to my defense, over and over again, which gave me the courage to continue sharing my/our story. He and I have both worked so hard in the last several months on ourselves and on our marriage, with our "TAM" family, here, encouraging us the whole way. 

One thing I'd like to add is that when an affair is discovered, not confessed, but discovered, and is followed by the immediate (and necessary) demand for NC, the NC letter, remorse, amends, heavy lifting, etc., it is completely overwhelming for the WS. At the same time, the BS is experiencing shock, anger, rage, denial, gut wrenching pain..... etc. This is NO time to make any permanent decisions for either of them. Time is your friend. Your marriage may or may not be salvageable, but time, patience and compassion on the the parts of both spouses can pave the way for healing whether the marriage is reconciled or not. 

I do think that we all have an opportunity to learn from one another here. I have learned so much about how I can best help my husband heal from reading about other BS's who have shared their stories. And, when asked, I have openly and honestly answered any questions from BS's and WS's, alike, in order to give as much insight as possible into the mind of WS....... now, a former WS. There is NEVER a justification or excuse for infidelity, but there are ALWAYS reasons. If a BS wants to reconcile with their WS, if the WS is remorseful and repentant and also wants to reconcile, then knowing and understanding those reasons is the key in determining whether or not it is worth the risk.

Thank you for starting this thread...... BTW, I hate "cheating" (not cheaters) with the heat of a thousand suns, as well! Oh, how I wish I could turn back time.

~EI


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

I have a comment...well really a question. If someone is a faithful loving spouse for 20 years but makes the terrible choice to engage in an affair for several months who is the real person - the faithful person for two decades or the selfish person they were for several months? Is it possible the faithful spouse changed temporarily into a selfish cheater but then changed back? Or were they always a selfish person but just hid it for two full decades? :scratchhead:

See that's the problem with saying people don't change. You have to know who they really are to know they changed and if the change was permanent or temporary. And its been my experience that we can't know who people really are because most often we don't really even know ourselves.


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## Pandakiss (Oct 29, 2010)

IMO, people always change. It can be a positive change or a negative change. Bfree, I don't think both spouses were "happy" for 20 years. Chances are they were both happy for 10 years, and for another 10 years, one was unhappy and just kept their mouth closed. 

Resentment can be real ugly. My husband and I were talking about this and I said, maybe someone cheats because they are so angry with their spouse. So the one thing they can do to hurt them the most is to cheat. 

But yea. Resentment building up for years is a disaster waiting to happen. It clouds your mind. You start seeing things differently (we call it history rewriting) and the anger builds. You get bitter towards your spouse. 

Back to the original question. Change is almost not the right word. Unless someone is a serial cheat..... I think what happens is, the anger takes over, you have changed into a person with many negative emotions. 

I think after an affair, you work on self and change communication and change behavior patterns. Is it really changing who you are as a person??? Or are the bad things stopping??? 

Again this is just my opinion.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

So maybe instead of changed we should say they have been polluted or poisoned? Maybe a less provocative term would be better but I actually find comfort in those terms because it would indicate that a purification is possible.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

EI said:


> This is probably a first. A thread giving any kind of "props" to WS's. As a former WS, who is 9 months into a reconciliation with my husband, I can tell you that it wasn't easy coming here, in the beginning, posting my story and then sticking around for the initial backlash.
> 
> I posted my original thread about 2 weeks after D-Day when I was still very much in the affair "fog," but I was not looking for approval for my poor choices, I was looking for answers, help, hope, understanding, guidance, direction, anything that could help me help my husband get through the devastation he was experiencing in the aftermath of D-Day. I wasn't even sure if he or I wanted to remain in the marriage or if it could or should be saved, but I was completely unprepared for the gut wrenching fallout that my infidelity was heaping on my husband, my children......... and then, myself.
> 
> ...


Do we help at all.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

jim123 said:


> Do we help at all.


Yes, absolutely you help...... So much that, as I said, our reconciliation would not be as far along as it is without it. From TAM, I've learned what my husband most needs from me to help him heal. I've come to fully grasp the depth of his pain, by reading about the pain of other BS's. 

You see, on D-Day, I wasn't, yet, feeling his pain. I was consumed in my own. Our marriage had deteriorated to the point of no return long before my affair began. For years, before my EA/PA, I had felt so much bitterness, resentment and hostility towards him due to his emotional and physical neglect and his refusal to work with me on improving our marriage. But, because of our financial situation, at the time, and the needs of our children, including our special needs son, I felt trapped in our marriage. His neglect had left me feeling unloved, unwanted and undesired. His refusal to work with me to fix our marriage, left me feeling bitter, angry and hopeless. For those "reasons" I honestly felt "justified" in seeking relief from the loneliness, isolation and hopelessness elsewhere. That was then. I see things very differently, now. 

In the early days and weeks after D-Day, I had a hard time grasping that he was actually hurting as deeply as he was. Since I hadn't felt his love for so long prior to my infidelity, I couldn't understand his pain upon discovering it. But, after reading about the gut-wrenching devastation that the other BS's felt, I began to see his pain through their eyes. I could accept their pain as genuine, without bias, because I hadn't been hurt by them. When I realized his pain was real, I realized that his love for me was also real and my own devastation and remorse began to set in. 

We followed the stories of others on TAM who were reconciling or trying to and tried to follow what seemed to work and avoid what seemed to fail. No contact, no contact letter, complete transparency, lots and lots of open and honest communication and answering all of his questions with patience and kindness were just the start.

Our MC was good in many ways, but we quickly realized that he was a rug sweeper, and believe it or not, even I, as the WS, did not want to rug sweep. I wanted us to heal and move forward. We had both been hurt so much, at this point, it was time to fix us or to move on. I don't think we would have known how without TAM.

To this day, my biggest complaint about TAM is that the initial "attack" on WS's, who post here, is so harsh, that they are driven away before they can be helped. We don't arrive with all of the answers.... We arrive seeking answers. But, the fact that we are here, at all, should be an indicator that we want help..... We want to be better. There are some posters who handle this beautifully, but there are a few who have probably driven desperate and vulnerable people away. We are all human, we have all sinned, but I still believe we are all worthy of compassion and understanding.

Jim, you are one of those posters who I have noticed has begun to reach out and offer that compassion and understanding. Without those who were willing to "hear" our story, without constantly trying to assassinate my character, I wouldn't have remained on TAM. I thank you for that.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

I do admire those WSs who come on here and risk backlash to help us because I have found great comfort in their postings. It would not help me and my WS because she moved in with AP and stayed with him for too long for ever to consider it just a mistake - in short, she is not sorry. I admire the ones who eventually see the light but my WS would just rationalize her decisions rather than admit she is sorry.


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## Furious George (Nov 14, 2011)

Yes, thank God for the "courageous" WS who come here and "help" us. Please... There is nothing courageous about someone whose initial cowardice earned them the title of WS in the first place. That said, I'm not against hearing their input. I don't think they should be attacked over and over, on every post. But I'm not giving them "props" or any other ridiculous accolades. There is no "character assasination". Your character's death was self-inflicted.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Furious George said:


> Yes, thank God for the "courageous" WS who come here and "help" us. Please... There is nothing courageous about someone whose initial cowardice earned them the title of WS in the first place. That said, I'm not against hearing their input. I don't think they should be attacked over and over, on every post. But I'm not giving them "props" or any other ridiculous accolades. There is no "character assasination". Your character's death was self-inflicted.


Yeah,well your wrong.you assume too much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

calvin said:


> Yeah,well your wrong.you assume too much.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wasn't going to give him the benefit of a response from me but I'll like your post.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm not going to have a long debate on if people can change or not, that was not the point of the thread. Some took a negative term and ran with it. I'll say this: I'm in my late 30's, have a child, been around the world. I know rich, poor, and famous people all over and my view stands. I said many people don't change. Not all. I believe at a certain age you stop progressing. I think you can learn to manage your flaws and repress negative aspects of your personalty, but unless you encounter a HUGE moment. A full 180 does not happen. Sure I think, if a child dies, you win the lotto, or lose all your fortune it can happen. But I don't believe content people just walking around are changing for the better unless they are thrown into a situation like losing their freedom or a career that defined them. Now I think it's easy to change for the worst, but to grow into a better person...

As for seemingly faithful people who all of a sudden change into cheaters then change back. Is it really all of a sudden? Not likely. Now, can a cheater change? Sure. Do most? No. Why? I think many times the BS make it too easy for them. The pain and fallout for cheating needs to be much worse then the thrill of an affair. It has to be so jarring it breaks them down to their core. I have seen a few on here like DD and Someday and Rookie who handle their R with class, love, and strength, and I'm willing to bet my next check their wives won't cheat again, but unfortunately most BS don't handle it that way.

This is just my point of view, I could be wrong, and again the point of the thread (and thank you to those who honored that) was to single out the waywards who have shown their change by staying and helping out.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Furious George said:


> Yes, thank God for the "courageous" WS who come here and "help" us. Please... There is nothing courageous about someone whose initial cowardice earned them the title of WS in the first place. That said, I'm not against hearing their input. I don't think they should be attacked over and over, on every post. But I'm not giving them "props" or any other ridiculous accolades. There is no "character assasination". Your character's death was self-inflicted.


You don't have to give them props because I did.


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## Furious George (Nov 14, 2011)

illwill said:


> You don't have to give them props because I did.


And it's just as ridiculous the second time.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Have a great night, my friend.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

EI said:


> Yes, absolutely you help...... So much that, as I said, our reconciliation would not be as far along as it is without it. From TAM, I've learned what my husband most needs from me to help him heal. I've come to fully grasp the depth of his pain, by reading about the pain of other BS's.
> 
> You see, on D-Day, I wasn't, yet, feeling his pain. I was consumed in my own. Our marriage had deteriorated to the point of no return long before my affair began. For years, before my EA/PA, I had felt so much bitterness, resentment and hostility towards him due to his emotional and physical neglect and his refusal to work with me on improving our marriage. But, because of our financial situation, at the time, and the needs of our children, including our special needs son, I felt trapped in our marriage. His neglect had left me feeling unloved, unwanted and undesired. His refusal to work with me to fix our marriage, left me feeling bitter, angry and hopeless. For those "reasons" I honestly felt "justified" in seeking relief from the loneliness, isolation and hopelessness elsewhere. That was then. I see things very differently, now.
> 
> ...


Thanks. You a a few others have taught me a great deal.

I do not think every WS is here for the same reason as you. It is hard to change and face yourself. That goes for the BS as well. What I need to find out is how push a WS without causing additional pain.

People generally change because they have to change. A little tough love is needed but we can not forget the people behind everything.

Take a new poster, Lost at Sea (Malcolm's wife). She is a long way to R and it will not help to not to push her.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

There is no blanket policy illwill.
Sometimes,most of the time a case by case basis is best,or you fly blind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

illwill said:


> I'm not going to have a long debate on if people can change or not, that was not the point of the thread. Some took a negative term and ran with it. I'll say this: I'm in my late 30's, have a child, been around the world. I know rich, poor, and famous people all over and my view stands. I said many people don't change. Not all. I believe at a certain age you stop progressing. I think you can learn to manage your flaws and repress negative aspects of your personalty, but unless you encounter a HUGE moment. A full 180 does not happen. Sure I think, if a child dies, you win the lotto, or lose all your fortune it can happen. But I don't believe content people just walking around are changing for the better unless they are thrown into a situation like losing their freedom or a career that defined them. Now I think it's easy to change for the worst, but to grow into a better person...
> 
> As for seemingly faithful people who all of a sudden change into cheaters then change back. Is it really all of a sudden? Not likely. Now, can a cheater change? Sure. Do most? No. Why? I think many times the BS make it too easy for them. The pain and fallout for cheating needs to be much worse then the thrill of an affair. It has to be so jarring it breaks them down to their core. I have seen a few on here like DD and Someday and Rookie who handle their R with class, love, and strength, and I'm willing to bet my next check their wives won't cheat again, but unfortunately most BS don't handle it that way.
> 
> This is just my point of view, I could be wrong, and again the point of the thread (and thank you to those who honored that) was to single out the waywards who have shown their change by staying and helping out.


Actually I find the discussion about people and change to be rather interesting and thought provoking. And I don't think there is a right or a wrong when it comes to that discussion.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

That is likely true, bfree.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

olisavictor said:


> Cheaters have one thing in mind; to spite their spouse and dishonour their marriage.


I can only speak for myself, but I can tell you that I think that it is rarely ever that simple and it was certainly not that simple for me. 



olisavictor said:


> But one thing i don't understand is, why would you profess a love to somebody and still go ahead to hurt him or her, you profess love,


At the time my EA/PA began, I was no longer in love with my husband and I had told him so many months before. We have been in reconciliation for almost 10 months. During that time we have both fallen in love with one another, again. I know that many people won't understand or even believe that. I don't think that I would have, either, until it actually happened to me.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

olisavictor said:


> What did your husband do to make you fall out of love with him, because when you marry somebody the love is bound to last for a life time. I doubt, if you have ever loved him, may be what you had then was infatuation.
> 
> HOW TO KNOW YOUR FUTURE LIFE PARTNER ~ BLISSFUL UNION


I think this is wrong. Love, especially long-term love, isn't something that can last if you don't work on it. It's very common for people to get complacent and fall out of love.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Love usually only last a lifetime, if you are lucky. But unless we are talking about a romance novel, most people fall in and out of love, and yes sometimes back in love.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

olisavictor said:


> What did your husband do to make you fall out of love with him, because when you marry somebody the love is bound to last for a life time. I doubt, if you have ever loved him, may be what you had then was infatuation.
> 
> HOW TO KNOW YOUR FUTURE LIFE PARTNER ~ BLISSFUL UNION


Just take a look at her thread for the full picture.

Basically a family having to deal with huge amounts of stress mostly due to illness, stress that would cause a weaker family to buckle under the weight of problems faced and her hubby unknowingly suffering from low Testosterone levels.

I think it is amazing the way both EI and B1 have turned this around.

(Hope that is a fair precis EI/B1)


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

olisavictor said:


> What did your husband do to make you fall out of love with him, because when you marry somebody the love is bound to last for a life time. I doubt, if you have ever loved him, may be what you had then was infatuation.
> 
> HOW TO KNOW YOUR FUTURE LIFE PARTNER ~ BLISSFUL UNION


Love doesn't just last for a life time. It needs a lot of things to help it along the way. Sometimes in long term marriage a greater importance is put on the other things in life, like kids, money, work and the love part isn't cared for properly.

So yes the love in a marriage can be neglected and fade somewhat and as an earlier poster has said (bfree I think) it is more than possible for someone who has never cheated over nearly 20 years of marriage to feel neglected enough emotionally to start (not always deliberately) looking for that connection elsewhere.

Affairs don't take months to develop. In my Hs case it took just 4 weeks of txtin a co worker to change a faithful man of 17 years into a cheater! So when people ask if a cheater can really change? The answer is yes. Of course they can because cheating doesn't come naturally for all cheaters and some of them actually do despise the person they have become, they despise it enough to return to the person they once were and its a long painful road for all those involved.

I for one have learnt a lot from the WSs who stick around here. I've been able to ask some heartfelt, painful questions and get honest answers and I am grateful to them for sharing (E1, CSS, CM and Mrs M to name a few) They are questions that I have been over and over with my H that we have exhausted but never the less it helps to get another perspective.
I will always offer my help and support to a truly remorseful WS here, because having experienced infidelity in my marriage,
I realise we ALL need a little help and understanding at times, yes, even the WS!

We are all human, none of us are perfect and when people reach out for support, then they should receive it. None of us should be ridiculed or bashed for coming here and asking or offering help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

olisavictor said:


> What did your husband do to make you fall out of love with him, because when you marry somebody the love is bound to last for a life time. I doubt, if you have ever loved him, may be what you had then was infatuation.
> 
> HOW TO KNOW YOUR FUTURE LIFE PARTNER ~ BLISSFUL UNION


olisavictor I am B1, the husband of EI..

How you ask, I will give you a VERY brief description of how...

I neglected her physically and emotionally for years. Went without sex for a year, slept in different rooms for over a year and basically became roommates because I didn't want to touch her, hug her kiss her etc. It was BAD. I was NEVER physical abusive, just not there emotionally for a very long time. EI held on for years trying to make us work, she got better, went to therapy, lost some weight, got new clothes, lingerie and pranced around in front of me with it and...nothing, I ignored it all. She made dr. appts for me too, but I didn't go. I could go on and on but YES it's very possible to fall out of love with someone who is NOT returning that love in anyway, and I wasn't, I was gone from the marriage. I was depressed and had low-T. 

Since I was there, I believe I know better than anyone. 

YES, we are in love again. This does happen. And it's truly wonderful.


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

sorry to thread jack...

Yes, props to the WS's that dealt with the constant bashing and still stuck around. Sometimes the hard stuff is definitely needed, other times it's over the top. I feel sometimes people are driven away and never get the help they came here for. It is a fine line I admit, some need the 2x4 while others just can't handle that and need a softer approach.

When EI came here she took some heat, a lot of it. She was hit by a lot of 2x4's, It brought her to tears sometimes, many times. But she came back for more, she didn't quit. She stuck it out here and, well, here we are in a better place. Not perfect, we still have work to do but we are on a good and healthy path.

So YES, props to the WS's for taking the heat, the 2x4's, and sticking around.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

olisavictor said:


> What did your husband do to make you fall out of love with him, because when you marry somebody the love is bound to last for a life time. I doubt, if you have ever loved him, may be what you had then was infatuation.
> 
> HOW TO KNOW YOUR FUTURE LIFE PARTNER ~ BLISSFUL UNION


There is no such thing as unconditional love unless you are referring to the love of a parent and a child. All spousal love is conditional and if you believe different I have a bridge in Manhattan available for purchase. 

EI and her husband B1 have posted at length about their marriage and their struggles in the Reconciliation thread here on CWI. Therefore I'm not telling tales out of school when I disclose that B1 had a low testosterone problem that caused obvious issues. He refused to get see by a doctor. He also was very neglectful of EI until the point where they really weren't even married in any sense other than on paper. In fact, if I recall correctly EI tried numerous times to work on the marriage until B1 said to her one day "its not going to ever get better, accept it." That is when she finally just gave up. To his credit he fully accepts what he did to contribute to the decline of their marriage but has never allowed EI to defer blame for her affair to anyone or anything else but her own actions. To EI's credit she has never tried to abdicate blame for her affair and has fully accepted that she is solely responsible for her bad choice. Their's is just one success story here on TAM but many people don't realize how many marriages can and have been reconciled with love and compassion because they are only interested in the salacious stories and revel in the opportunity to impart their own "bitter wisdom."


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

B1 said:


> sorry to thread jack...
> 
> Yes, props to the WS's that dealt with the constant bashing and still stuck around. Sometimes the hard stuff is definitely needed, other times it's over the top. I feel sometimes people are driven away and never get the help they came here for. It is a fine line I admit, some need the 2x4 while others just can't handle that and need a softer approach.
> 
> ...


It was great to see this and other positive comments on this thread (and to see a thread like this at all). Thank you for saying these things. I have often cried myself when reading about the pain of the BSes and some of the extremely harsh things said about the Waywards and what monsters they all must be. I can't imagine how horrible EI felt having those kinds of things directed AT her. Obviously remorseful WSes already feel terrible about what they've done and are already hating themselves, and to be bludgeoned by 2x4s is not the most helpful thing in the world.

I am extremely grateful to the BSes who have spoken to me in a civilized or helpful fashion, whether supportive or not. I'm scared to be here, but I'm here. TAM has been so helpful to me.


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## BackOnTrack (Oct 25, 2011)

Pandakiss said:


> I think after an affair, you work on self and change communication and change behavior patterns. Is it really changing who you are as a person??? Or are the bad things stopping???
> 
> Again this is just my opinion.


From my perspective as a former WS, I have not changed who I am as a person. I simply returned to the life of intergrity that I once had. The only change has been in both of us learning how to meet each others needs and aquiring the tools needed to resolve issues before they lead to resentment.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

EI,

Good for you. I am glad you and your husband are doing well. My EX, turned her back on our marriage on DDay. The kids have been feeling it for a while and she is receiving a huge dose of resentment from them.

I am not nor have I ever said that I was the perfect husband or father but my family never deserved to be ripped apart like it was because my WS thought it would be easy to cheat,,, she was doing it for 5 years and that there would not be any consequences.

I was willing to forgive up up to the day of divorce, now she has done far to much damage. I tend to think that the WS get so wrapped up in their own needs that they just start acting so selfishly and just don't care what else happens. They don't see the other people's pain and/or think they deserve it. Maybe they just don't want to face their own guilt.

I don't hate WS. I am glad to see some on the board. Their input is valuable. Those who were able to reconcile, I am very glad for you. I was not unfortunately, but my life is getting better every day.


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## sweetpea (Jan 30, 2007)

EI

Thank you so much for your posts! It was so nice to read such wonderful comments about TAM and the members.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> Just take a look at her thread for the full picture.
> 
> Basically a family having to deal with huge amounts of stress mostly due to illness, stress that would cause a weaker family to buckle under the weight of problems faced and her hubby unknowingly suffering from low Testosterone levels.
> 
> ...


I think that you did a beautiful job, WyshIknew.... Thank you so much for your post.  Even though it reads like a "sad story," it's my story.... with B1. But, I know that this represents just a few sad chapters in our life. I have inside information that the story is going to have a happy ending! 

It means so much to me when I realize that there are people who rarely, if ever, post on our thread, but continue to follow our story and cheer us on from the sidelines. I can't tell you what it meant to me, especially in the first few months after D-Day, to log on and to find even one encouraging post among the many negative posts. Just one word of encouragement would strengthen my resolve and enable me to keep trying one more day. But, I will admit, that the extremely harsh ones could really bring me down leave me feeling vulnerable and hopeless. When you're already at your lowest, and you know that you have no one to blame but yourself, it is very tempting to start believing that the "worst" things being said about you, might just be the most accurate. But, deep down I knew that, although infidelity is always an extremely selfish act, I wasn't an inherently selfish person. That was the most selfish, destructive, and indefensible act that I have ever commited in my life. And, worst of all, the victims were my own precious family. I struggled with whether or not I should even "accept" the gift of reconciliation that B1 was so willing to offer me. I couldn't understand how he could love me, now, and I feared that he would come to regret his decision at some point in the future.

As time passed, the TAMers who followed our story, began to see a genuine reconciliation taking place and the harsher comments began to give way to more encouraging ones. Now, I only encounter the occasional negative comment when I venture outside of the "Reconciliation" thread. But, I'm a lot stronger than I was in those early months after D-Day..... The love of my amazing husband has had that effect on me! 

I think that when a BS wishes to reconcile and their WS is demonstrating true remorse, with their words and actions, and is doing the necessary heavy lifting, that it does the BS's, here, a real disservice when posters continue to try to demoralize the former WS. It is far more important that my time, energy, and emotions are spent trying to repair myself and my marriage than in trying to defend myself to those whom will never believe that I am worthy of a second chance. The only one I should have to convince is my husband! 

But, I will say that we are so indebted to those of you who have given us direction, inspiration and encouragement along the way.

~EI


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

sweetpea said:


> EI
> 
> Thank you so much for your posts! It was so nice to read such wonderful comments about TAM and the members.


Thank you for providing such an amazing forum for your members. I can think of no other place where we could have found such an incredible network of support. It's absolutely free and has provided us with more useful tools for reconciliation than we received in our thousands of dollars worth of therapy.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Hardtohandle said:


> I truly believe people make mistakes. *People make really bad mistakes.*


You would have a most difficult time in proving to me, as well as to a host of others, that the inherent *deception*, employed in the act of cheating, is in and of itself, just a "*mistake*," much rather than being the *the wanton, calculating, and premeditated act of betrayal that it truly is intended to be!*

Despite that fact, I am very respectful of those WS's and BS's who have seen fit to assess, forgive, reestablish trust as well as their loving connections and to give R a fighting chance!


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> You will have a most difficult time in proving to me, as well as to a host of others, that the inherent *deception*, in and of itself, is just a "*mistake*," rather than being nothing more than *the wanton, calculating, and premeditated act of betrayal that it truly is!*


Not at all,it was a choice.I'm a BS a little over a year in R and I'm getting to the point to where I can see how the WS was in a phase of 
Temporary insanity,my wife would never do that yet she did.She was no where near herself,mistake? Nope
She chose to do it but she was not in the right frame of mind.
Some people really,really do deserve that one chance,its not a second chance,its one and one only.
Let them prove themselves,you'd want it,I would if I fvcked up.We'd all be desperate for the one chance.
I'm willing to gamble if the odds are in my favor and so far the return on my investment is paying out pretty damn good.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lost at sea (Mar 16, 2013)

I am a cheater and i do truly hope to get the chance to repent to my husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Furious George said:


> Yes, thank God for the "courageous" WS who come here and "help" us. Please... *There is nothing courageous about someone whose initial cowardice earned them the title of WS in the first place.* That said, I'm not against hearing their input. I don't think they should be attacked over and over, on every post. But I'm not giving them "props" or any other ridiculous accolades. There is no "character assasination". Your character's death was self-inflicted.


So much pain here. I wish you continued healing so you can find hope again. 
I also hope you never, ever fall from grace at any capacity so you don't have to feel how for some people there's simply no chance of redemption.
This is the saddest post i've ever read here. Not furious but sad.


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## Furious George (Nov 14, 2011)

How astute of you, identifying the presense of pain in the infidelity forum. I never said there wasn't a chance for redemption. All I'm saying is that my admiration is reserved for the betrayed spouses who have had their dignity stripped away by the person they chose to spend the rest of their life with. All situations are different. There are some who have erred and have went to great lengths to correct their mistake. They live happily ever after, and that is great. I believe that is the minority, however.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Furious George said:


> How astute of you, identifying the presense of pain in the infidelity forum. I never said there wasn't a chance for redemption. All I'm saying is that my admiration is reserved for the betrayed spouses who have had their dignity stripped away by the person they chose to spend the rest of their life with. All situations are different. There are some who have erred and have went to great lengths to correct their mistake. They live happily ever after, and that is great. I believe that is the minority, however.


I admire someone who fvcked up,realized it and did all they can to repair the damage,yes they were selfish and hurt people but for someone to go topeople and admit what that did,ask for forgivness and do everything in their power to make it right
might deserve a certain amount of admiration,I know a few whom I do admire.
My wife is one of them.I did not make her tell her co-workers or the people at church or my family
She did it on her own,that took guts and I do admire that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

BackOnTrack said:


> From my perspective as a former WS, I have not changed who I am as a person. I simply returned to the life of intergrity that I once had. The only change has been in both of us learning how to meet each others needs and aquiring the tools needed to resolve issues before they lead to resentment.


Wow.... In three simple sentences, this sums up what I have been trying to articulate in my last 1,334 posts. Very well stated!


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Anyone who makes a mistake, acknowledges it, learns from it, resolves never to repeat the same mistake again and tries everything in their power to make amends is worthy of my respect.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

sucks having the WS label but it could have been avoided, I did a really hurtful thing but I hope my being here can help others not to do as I did. There are haters I've had to deal with but there are also people that have helped me so much here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StillLife (Jan 19, 2013)

After her first cyber affair about 9 months ago...my wife found out about me posting on this board (under a different username) and made her own thread here "confessing" what she had done. While at the time she might have been trying to do the noble thing, she was still very deep in the fog at the time and still in rugsweep mode. She got taken to task pretty heavily for it. At the time, the emotions were still heavy for me, so part of me enjoyed her standing trial. 

After that, surprise, surprise but she hates this board and the people on it. Haha. Which is a shame, because I think she only saw the angry, righteous part of TAM, and not the deeper more analytical side, like can be viewed in this thread. I do wonder what would have happened if she hadn't received such a harsh welcome...as the standing trial quickly turned her from the initial remorse she had to feeling defensive and spiteful.

I think we need to be careful about demonizing waywards so quickly or too much. Truth be told, it's always easier to blame the other person for the failings in a marriage, and infidelity is the ultimate scapegoat, but it's only been in the last...month or so I've started to fully wake up to how I sucked as a husband. I became someone I wasn't, got into horrible habits, ignored my wife's initial efforts to change things, her frustration when she couldn't get them to. It's clear looking back from around the time of the first affair she was checking out, giving up...and what did I do? Nothing. I took her to task for the first affair and expected her to earn my trust and love back. She tried too, but all while I was changing nothing on my end. 

She tried to reconcile that first time for the kids, and the concept of the marriage, to go back to being miserable in silence for her family. And that's not to say that I'm some miserable bastard, but there were plenty of bad behaviors I got into that were self-gratifying and not totally considerate of her.

Now, could she have gone about handling the situation a lot differently? Absolutely. But she has always had a tough time communicating what is on her mind...for example she was once too nervous to ask for her paycheck from our church for going on 3 months. I think by the time she was ready for the first and second affair, she was in the mindset of "I can't do this anymore, how do I just blow the whole thing up?" Actually she has since confessed that. 

The hard part is now that we're separated, I see all of this. I wasn't sure I wanted her back after what she had done the last time, but...I do. She's my best friend and visa versa, we just let things get way too screwed up, and I see it with total clarity now. I thought she was too far gone, she's still been hanging on to a lot of the past resentment, but over the last couple weeks I've been seeing little signs of hope. It helped when I totally backed off and gave her space to come to me. We even went out last Saturday which was her idea and had a great time. I think we tapped into a bit of what we loved about one another in the first place, which is where we need to go back to if we are to ever rebuild.

Not getting my hopes up. I have prepared to let go and take the lessons with me into the future, but I'm fully willing to be patient now and see what happens, something I had too little of in the past.

Got off on a tangeant, but my point was that maybe the WW's who do post here do deserve a bit of a moderate approach. I know there are many who are still reeling from their own betrayl on this forum, but the end goal as I see it should be to help our fellow married people have better marriages, if at all possible. Sometimes a little understanding and an unbiased approach might be the best way to achieve that goal. 

That said, I love this board...it has been a tremendous source of support for me!


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Wow stilllife, I'm sorry that happened to where it didn't work out and how she got bashed over here..there may still be the possibility of R tho. Rookie divorced his WW and now 2 years later they are back together. Anything's possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

People change. Many times they don't notice, many times they change on purpose. The only constant in life IS change.

I'm a Wayward, 5 years into R. We have a happy marriage. Both of us have changed. We are very close, we do almost everything together. Neither of us has any hobbies or interested that the other one isn't part of. It's great!

When I came here, I didn't come to be called names. I didn't cheat on any of you here, no reason for any of you to call me names or attack me. I cheated on my husband (EA), so he can call me names and attack me - nobody else can. Waywards don't come here for name calling. Most come here to understand. Cheaters don't get handed a manual on how to fix what they messed up. There is no such thing as a 180 for cheaters (at least last time I checked there wasn't). This forum isn't much help for most cheaters because they get run off way too fast. I don't know if that's the purpose or not but that's the way it goes.

There are very, very few people on here that actually make an effort to help Waywards and it takes a lot of patience from the Wayward to find these people and their advise. There are way too many folks on here that project their own pain, disappointment and extreme bitterness onto a cheater, remorseful or not. I'm assuming it makes them feel better for a while to have someone "to dump on". 

I've been "dumped on" by members on here . Someone told me I should divorce my husband and set him free because I don't deserve him and many agreed with this advise and cheered on the poster suggesting it. My husband was pissed. He didn't want a divorce nor did he want to be set free. Thank God my husband set the record straight. Just because someone was cheated on and posts on here doesn't mean they are qualified to give any advise. I'm stubborn and don't care what anyone on some internet forum thinks of me. I left when I felt I was on the right path, when I felt I had all the tools I needed to keep re-building. 

I was fortunate enough to find several folks on here willing to take the time and effort to listen and explain, help me see and understand. I'm a better person for it. I'm proud of my progress, I'm proud to be the wife I am today.

To the original OP: I'm not sure of the motivation for other cheaters/waywards to come here. I don't feel it takes guts. It took the desire to see, understand, learn, realize and take it from there. I know that name calling and being nasty doesn't accomplish any of this and the forum has a function to block people. That's what I did because there wasn't anything I could learn from being called names.

My advise for waywards (remorseful cheaters): You have to stand up for and defend your desire to fix your marriage. You can't be in the fog. You have to own what you did. You have to be able to tell the bashers from the folks that can help you. You have to be able to shake off the name calling and nasty comments but understand the reason for it. Chances are your betrayed spouse feels the same way about you as the bashers on here. 

Good luck!


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

That's a great post thank you fourty
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

illwill said:


> I'm not going to have a long debate on if people can change or not, that was not the point of the thread. Some took a negative term and ran with it. I'll say this: I'm in my late 30's, have a child, been around the world. I know rich, poor, and famous people all over and my view stands. I said many people don't change. Not all. I believe at a certain age you stop progressing. I think you can learn to manage your flaws and repress negative aspects of your personalty, but unless you encounter a HUGE moment. A full 180 does not happen. Sure I think, if a child dies, you win the lotto, or lose all your fortune it can happen. But I don't believe content people just walking around are changing for the better unless they are thrown into a situation like losing their freedom or a career that defined them. Now I think it's easy to change for the worst, but to grow into a better person...
> 
> As for seemingly faithful people who all of a sudden change into cheaters then change back. Is it really all of a sudden? Not likely. Now, can a cheater change? Sure. Do most? No. Why? I think many times the BS make it too easy for them. The pain and fallout for cheating needs to be much worse then the thrill of an affair. It has to be so jarring it breaks them down to their core. I have seen a few on here like DD and Someday and Rookie who handle their R with class, love, and strength, and I'm willing to bet my next check their wives won't cheat again, but unfortunately most BS don't handle it that way.
> 
> This is just my point of view, I could be wrong, and again the point of the thread (and thank you to those who honored that) was to single out the waywards who have shown their change by staying and helping out.


You caught my attention by commenting on a post you made, so I came to read the threads you started. You're an incisive person. I agree with what you say about people not changing. What torment it is for everyone to see the manifestation of a significant inner flaw appear in the daylight not once but seemingly without end.

An alcoholic who wakes up with a dry mouth, pounding head and jumbled room knows that they said or did things that are going to be hell to repair. They go into damage control mode for a few days but they keep using booze to survive the shıtty way they feel.

A cheater goes back for more sneak sex, even though they may feel their integrity running down the drain.

The underlying psychological construction of our character is in some sense hidden from us because it deep inside. When we try to know ourselves it remains a slippery rubber knot that is smooth and resistant to our desire for change and a better life.

Whether it is alcohol, cheating, embezzling, once these destructive manifestations are growing problems in their own right, fixing oneself becomes even more difficult. I think you are right about that one.

So, why did you bother to ask?

I can only suppose that you want to see a brighter side. There is one of course and may not be a life changing event (disbarment, divorce, bankruptcy) that finally sparks a change of character. Those who badly need some insight and action need a combination of things. Encouragement is important. Sometimes the person who encouraged is long gone. There are couple of people in my life who just believed in me. To do better is a way of paying them back, though I don't where they are.

As far as wayward spouses go, the repetition of cheating causes additional damage just like each drink. You should read Tears, she wanted to try strange, got some one afternoon, rushed home to confess and was kicked to the curb. She did not want to go down that path of being a person who could not respect herself, so worked so hard on herself afterwards. One might say that she did not change so very much, but rather was fundamentally sound person who made a bad choice and retreated forthright to protect her core. 

Maybe, her exhusband's character slid off more than hers. He drank and womanized himself into worse state. She was trying to pick him up in her last post. Perhaps she is not a good example.

I just turned 55. I don't think, I know my life is all f'd up. Someone on TAM wrote that if you haven't resolved your issues by the early 30s it's never going to happen. I fear that this is true and yet I feel better that I am at last not running from the facts that I think malformed my character. I only wish I had begun in my 20s.

There is a fine line between a blame game and understanding.

You don't go into the story of what happened to your marriage. Your wife cheated and you put your marriage in box, nailed it shut and buried it deep in the earth while your wife pleaded. It was your way of dealing with it. It crushed her, it crushed you. She had to leave and go and look her unforgiven, unchanging cheating face in the mirror everyday.

Does she still dream of forgiveness that would allow her to feel the warmth of a single sun? Has she been remorseful? Has she changed?

Would you be willing to read great short story in which adultery might have been the right thing to do?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I do not hate all cheaters. Some are deserving of hate, some of pity.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

*Re: Props to the Waywards ..although!*



FourtyPlus said:


> People change. Many times they don't notice, many times they change on purpose. The only constant in life IS change.......
> 
> *You have to OWN what you did.*
> 
> ....You have to be able to shake off the name calling and nasty comments *but understand the reason for it. *Chances are your betrayed spouse feels the same way about you as the bashers on here.


Here's the problem though and in a sense it's why it's a bit pointless having a pop at the betrayed because the facts are that not many of you actually do *OWN* your cheating. 

That's a fact - THATS THE PROBLEM

95% of you don't - you justify, you blame, you self deceive, 

This next bit actually pisses me off no end

"I was a good person, I am a good person - but I just went a bit awol there - *now I'm back*! - yipee! and everything is going to be okay" 

Right there you ( not you personally) have given yourself an 'out' you have cast aside the responsibility. That is the script and most cheaters follow it - to the letter. 

It is the very reason why I personally think any wayward on here should get a bit of 'reality' some 'in the rib critisism' because I feel the wayward has it 'inbuilt' in them to 'miss' to 'ignore' the collosal affects of their treacheries. 

I've had this argument a few times on here (hell it's even ridiculously got me banned!) and for me the only waywards who will succeed in reconciliation are those that can take that harsh finger pointed straight at them and really learn to cast aside any self justification they have nomatter what that is and accept they have been bad asses and look deep at themselves and show 150% selfless remorse. If a bit of bad mouthing gets that reality into their fog laden heads then so be it. I see little wrong with that 

I bring my kids up to see they have responsiblities for their choices in life and should they choose to hurt somebody due to their own selfishness they know I will be down on them like a ton of bricks.

However, they have quickly learned the realities of truths as their wayward serial cheating mother also said that to them .........


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> sucks having the WS label but it could have been avoided, I did a really hurtful thing but I hope my being here can help others not to do as I did. There are haters I've had to deal with but there are also people that have helped me so much here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can wear either the BS or the WS label, depending on what mood I am in.

Which is sort of odd, but helps me see things from both sides, which might be a good thing on TAM.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: Props to the Waywards ..although!*



Headspin said:


> Here's the problem though and in a sense it's why it's a bit pointless having a pop at the betrayed because the facts are that not many of you actually do *OWN* your cheating.
> 
> That's a fact - THATS THE PROBLEM
> 
> ...



You are talking about WWs who succeed in R and WW's needing reality in their fog laden heads....it can't be both ways. A WW being successful in R doesn't have a fog. A foggy WW doesn't have successful R.

Of the WW's on here that are successfully into R, none of them needs an occasional badmouthing to get reality into their head. They are way past that point.

I would also like to add that while the "harsh finger pointing" is in order for a WW coming here to get help, they also need what they came here for: help in understanding what their spouse is going through and help understanding what they themselves have become. None of this is accomplished by name calling and finger pointing.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

*Re: Props to the Waywards ..although!*



FourtyPlus said:


> You are talking about WWs who succeed in R and WW's needing reality in their fog laden heads....it can't be both ways. A WW being successful in R doesn't have a fog. A foggy WW doesn't have successful R.


But they did have a fog and what was it that got them out of it ? A nice gentle chat over a cup of tea ? I think not, but no doubt a raging betrayed spouse who sat there and went into melt down before their very eyes might have swung them towards the reality of the magnitude of their infidelities. Anger, bitterness, hurt at home and on here goes a long way to illustrating just what exactly they have perpetrated. 



FourtyPlus said:


> Of the WW's on here that are successfully into R, none of them needs an occasional badmouthing to get reality into their head. They are way past that point.


Some of them no doubt but not all and you can easily see the ones that are a none starter 



FourtyPlus said:


> I would also like to add that while the "harsh finger pointing" is in order for a WW coming here to get help, they also need what they came here for: help in understanding what their spouse is going through and help understanding what they themselves have become. None of this is accomplished by name calling and finger pointing.


I strongly disagree, whilst intensely personal attacks may not help, 'to the point' reality checks do very much so

In my opinion


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

BackOnTrack said:


> From my perspective as a former WS, I have not changed who I am as a person. I simply returned to the life of intergrity that I once had. The only change has been in both of us learning how to meet each others needs and aquiring the tools needed to resolve issues before they lead to resentment.


This mirrors my story. For years I hated who I had become

It's all good now


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

bfree said:


> So maybe instead of changed we should say they have been polluted or poisoned? Maybe a less provocative term would be better but I actually find comfort in those terms because it would indicate that a purification is possible.


Which would actually make it more accurate because a "purification" is indeed possible.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

The ones that truly change seem to have spouses that held them accountable, and were well aware there would be no sequels to this story.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

illwill said:


> The ones that truly change seem to have spouses that held them accountable, and were well aware there would be no sequels to this story.


 I believethis all the way but...the ones that truly change also have true remorse and
have self examined everything about about what they did.
They don't stop there,they work on them selves,the effort they put into the marrage does not
waver,they understand the hurt and pain they caused.
Not most but it seems more than a few do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

I agree. Although even the most remorseful waywards must believe there will be no more affairs to be tolerated. Especially on dday, when the waywards are scrambling. Tough love. I never could reconcile with my wife, but reconciling with tough love, is very hard. I can respect the balancing act.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

It's not just about not cheating anymore but a WS has to examine themselves in all aspects prior to the affair. They need to change a lot to make their marriage a better one. Also the BS needs to do the same. In order for it to work, both need to stop ugly habits and work on pleasing their spouse. Put more into the marriage, make your spouse your number one priority. In my case, I was not making my husband my first priority. I always put the kids first. Now he gets all of me and all of my attention and affection. You can not allow your marriage to fall back into a rut.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

illwill said:


> The ones that truly change seem to have spouses that held them accountable, and were well aware there would be no sequels to this story.


I believe accountability to oneself must come first and above everything else. My husband can hold me accountable all day long but it won't mean a thing if I don't hold myself accountable to myself first.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: Props to the Waywards ..although!*

_


Headspin said:



But they did have a fog and what was it that got them out of it ? A nice gentle chat over a cup of tea ? I think not, but no doubt a raging betrayed spouse who sat there and went into melt down before their very eyes might have swung them towards the reality of the magnitude of their infidelities. Anger, bitterness, hurt at home and on here goes a long way to illustrating just what exactly they have perpetrated.

Click to expand...

_All this is true and you are right but it doesn't do a thing for the WW in R. You are still talking about new WW's and WW's in R like it's the same thing.



_


Headspin said:



Some of them no doubt but not all and you can easily see the ones that are a none starter

Click to expand...

_Some WW's get it right away, some take longer, some are lost causes. Seems to me that way too many and being written off as lost causes way to fast. 


_


Headspin said:



I strongly disagree, whilst intensely personal attacks may not help, 'to the point' reality checks do very much so

In my opinion

Click to expand...

_Once a WW is out of the fog, 'to the point' reality checks' don't do very much anymore. It's like continuing to point out one's shortcomings after they have realized them and are ready to change.


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