# Wife has depression/mood disorder



## someone90 (May 31, 2013)

I love my wife and we get along great but she's had issues with depression and mood disorders in the past, which she took anti depressants for, and sometimes those issues pop up and cause problems in our relationship.

For the last few months she's been doing acupuncture and using herbal medication to deal with her issues, it's been working pretty well but it's taking time and she often has pretty sever mood swings. I always try my best to understand this and make her feel good but lately it's become more and more draining. It's come to the point now that if she gets upset about something I did she will get VERY upset and I will have to try to calm her down by repeatedly apologizing even if I made a harmless mistake. On the other hand, if I have a problem with something she did/said and bring it up, then she will complain about being a burden for me and become very upset/depressed until I have to somehow apologize again to smooth the situation.

When my wife is healthy she recognizes that these are problems with her mood and that she doesn't mean to act this way. I love her I know the type of person she is, so that's why I can put up with as much as I have but I just feel physically and emotionally exhausted. Sometimes I will have to deal with her mood swing in the middle of the night which is very hard for me since I don't sleep enough as it is. Sometimes I even question my own mental health because I don't know what I'm going to deal with on any given day and it makes me uneasy as well.

I guess I'm making this thread to hear from people who've been in similar situations, but I'm also doing it because I have nobody to talk to about this and I feel like I have to vent some of this frustration. Thanks for reading!


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

Has she been diagnosed with anything in particular?


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## someone90 (May 31, 2013)

trey69 said:


> Has she been diagnosed with anything in particular?


She was diagnosed with depression in the past but since I've known her it seemed her depression was gone.
One doctor recently thought she had bipolar disorder, which made a lot of sense to me, but to a lesser degree than the average sufferer. 
I've seen her go from extremely angry, to extremely sad/crying, to happy again within 30 minutes...


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

someone90 said:


> She was diagnosed with depression in the past but since I've known her it seemed her depression was gone.
> One doctor recently thought she had bipolar disorder, which made a lot of sense to me, but to a lesser degree than the average sufferer.
> I've seen her go from extremely angry, to extremely sad/crying, to happy again within 30 minutes...


And shes only taking herbal remedies right now? She may need to go back in for another evaluation or second opinion. Has she been in therapy too? If not, she may need to get back in it. Medication alone usually isn't the answer.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I was the depressed wife. The best thing my husband did for me was nothing. He let me own my own chaos and moods. If I became irrational he'd leave. If I got upset he left. 

He never tried to fix me I had to do that. My reward for bad behavior was him leaving. He had some strong boundaries and I now respect that. If I wanted to have a rational conversation he was cool with that but when I started with the anger he wouldn't put up with it.


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## someone90 (May 31, 2013)

trey69 said:


> And shes only taking herbal remedies right now? She may need to go back in for another evaluation or second opinion. Has she been in therapy too? If not, she may need to get back in it. Medication alone usually isn't the answer.


She's had some therapy but in a couple of occasions it made things worse. She wants to go back but we want to be very careful about who the therapist is.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> If I became irrational he'd leave. If I got upset he left.


Leave, as in, going for a walk/drive, or actually taking off for days/weeks?


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

someone90 said:


> She's had some therapy but in a couple of occasions it made things worse. She wants to go back but we want to be very careful about who the therapist is.


Just out of curiosity, how did things get worse? What happened?


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## someone90 (May 31, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> I was the depressed wife. The best thing my husband did for me was nothing. He let me own my own chaos and moods. If I became irrational he'd leave. If I got upset he left.
> 
> He never tried to fix me I had to do that. My reward for bad behavior was him leaving. He had some strong boundaries and I now respect that. If I wanted to have a rational conversation he was cool with that but when I started with the anger he wouldn't put up with it.


How irrational were you when it got bad? Is your depression gone now?

My wife has more of a mood disorder than depression now. If I leave when she acts like that then she goes off the wall. She's called me continuously until I answer the phone and sometimes she'll tell me she won't stop calling until I give her a divorce. That was when she was at her worst. She said she was self sabotaging, which is a symptom, and she knows that's not what she wants. But it's just hard to deal with for me...


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

someone90 said:


> How irrational were you when it got bad? Is your depression gone now?
> 
> My wife has more of a mood disorder than depression now. If I leave when she acts like that then she goes off the wall. She's called me continuously until I answer the phone and sometimes she'll tell me she won't stop calling until I give her a divorce. That was when she was at her worst. She said she was self sabotaging, which is a symptom, and she knows that's not what she wants. But it's just hard to deal with for me...


This almost reminds me of someone with Abandament issues.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

thunderstruck said:


> Leave, as in, going for a walk/drive, or actually taking off for days/weeks?


Going for walk/drive, leave the room, etc.

He wouldn't just stand there while I dumped my depression on him nor would he apologize for things he clearly didn't do.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

someone90 said:


> How irrational were you when it got bad? Is your depression gone now?
> 
> My wife has more of a mood disorder than depression now. If I leave when she acts like that then she goes off the wall. She's called me continuously until I answer the phone and sometimes she'll tell me she won't stop calling until I give her a divorce. That was when she was at her worst. She said she was self sabotaging, which is a symptom, and she knows that's not what she wants. But it's just hard to deal with for me...


This is fear of abandonment or separation anxiety. I have both.

My depression is gone now and I self regulate the anxiety.

My husband was willing to work with me as long as I held up my end. He matches the effort I put in.


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## someone90 (May 31, 2013)

trey69 said:


> Just out of curiosity, how did things get worse? What happened?


My wife had some bad experiences in her childhood and the therapist kept going over them. It made her really upset to the point she got physically ill and had to go to the ER later that day.


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## someone90 (May 31, 2013)

trey69 said:


> This almost reminds me of someone with Abandament issues.


That's true. She went to boarding school before University because her parents split up and she didn't have a stable home.


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## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

Yes, agree with trey. She needs to get back into therapy and get more opinions. It does sound like bipolar, but get a trained professional opinion. Maybe a combo of light meds and therapy might get her back to herself again.


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## someone90 (May 31, 2013)

inquizitivemind said:


> Yes, agree with trey. She needs to get back into therapy and get more opinions. It does sound like bipolar, but get a trained professional opinion. Maybe a combo of light meds and therapy might get her back to herself again.


I think therapy along with her herbal medication would work well. 
Anti depressants are such terrible drugs. They get you addicted and they just numb the issues. The worst part is that it's almost impossible get off of them without complications and SEVERE withdrawal effects.
Also, those medications have had terrible side effects on her which is why she couldn't continue them.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

someone90 said:


> I think therapy along with her herbal medication would work well.
> Anti depressants are such terrible drugs. They get you addicted and they just numb the issues. The worst part is that it's almost impossible get off of them without complications and SEVERE withdrawal effects.
> Also, those medications have had terrible side effects on her which is why she couldn't continue them.


She may have BPD if she has abandonment issues. Hopefully, TAM's resident expert Uptown will chime in with more information.

If she is bipolar, she may need a mood stabilizer prescribed by a doctor along with an anti-depressant. Yes, there are some people that can manage their symptoms with alternatives to prescription drugs but that doesn't appear to be the case with your wife. I have a friend that manages her symptoms with medicinal MJ which is legal here in CA.

In any event, you need to set up some personal boundaries with her. Walk away every single time she rages at you. Stop apologizing just to keep the peace. Teach her how to treat you. Mental illness is not an excuse for her to treat you badly.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

someone90 said:


> One doctor recently thought she had bipolar disorder....I've seen her go from extremely angry, to extremely sad/crying, to happy again within 30 minutes...


SomeOne, perhaps your W does suffer from bipolar. That is not what you are describing here, however. I agree with Emerald that your W's strong fear of abandonment, hating to be alone, and clinging behavior are hallmarks of a person having strong BPD traits. Moreover, the rapid changes in mood you describe are more characteristic of BPD than bipolar. 

Yet, if your W really does have strong BPD traits, there are other traits that you should be seeing as well. I therefore suggest you read about BPD and bipolar traits so you are able to spot the warning signs. An easy place to start is my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/physical-mental-health-issues/59344-confused.html#post1175425. It describes 12 major differences I've seen between typical bipolar-1 behavior (my foster son) and BPD behavior (my exW).

Significantly, every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. This is why it is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means everyone exhibits BPD traits to some degree. At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits most BPD traits at a strong and persistent level. Not having met her, I don't know the answer to that question. I nonetheless am confident that you can learn to spot the red flags -- i.e., strong occurrences of the traits -- if you take time to learn what warning signs to look for. There is nothing subtle about traits such as strong verbal abuse, strong fear of abandonment, and always being "The Victim." Accordingly, spotting these warning signs is not difficult.

What is difficult is determining whether the traits are so severe that they meet 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having the full-blown disorder. Only professionals can make that determination. I therefore suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid opinion on what it is you are dealing with.

Finally, if you would like to read more about how to spot the red flags for BPD, I suggest you see my description of them at My list of hell!. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you and point you to good online resources. Take care, SomeOne.


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## someone90 (May 31, 2013)

Uptown said:


> SomeOne, perhaps your W does suffer from bipolar. That is not what you are describing here, however. I agree with Emerald that your W's strong fear of abandonment, hating to be alone, and clinging behavior are hallmarks of a person having strong BPD traits. Moreover, the rapid changes in mood you describe are more characteristic of BPD than bipolar.
> 
> Yet, if your W really does have strong BPD traits, there are other traits that you should be seeing as well. I therefore suggest you read about BPD and bipolar traits so you are able to spot the warning signs. An easy place to start is my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/physical-mental-health-issues/59344-confused.html#post1175425. It describes 12 major differences I've seen between typical bipolar-1 behavior (my foster son) and BPD behavior (my exW).
> 
> ...


I've read through your lists and I'm still a bit confused. It seems like most of my wife's traits fit into bipolar disorder but some of them, like her very rapid mood swings, fit into BPD. 
I really don't think she has BPD, she seems aware of her issue the majority of the time but she goes through instances where she doesn't realize it. 

Also, sometimes there is very little verbal abuse and she doesn't usually play the victim card, most of the time she claims everything is her fault. 
She doesn't hate being alone, but she has issues being alone at night, that's when her condition is at it's worst. Being alone in the day is not an issue at all.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

someone90 said:


> I've read through your lists and I'm still a bit confused. It seems like most of my wife's traits fit into bipolar disorder but some of them, like her very rapid mood swings, fit into BPD.


Someone, if you have time, it would be very helpful if you would tell us which of the 12 differences are consistent with BPD and which are consistent with bipolar. To facilitate that effort, I am listing the 12 differences below so that, in your response, you can comment on each one of them.

*One difference* is that the mood swings are on two separate spectra having very different polar extremes. A bipolar-1 sufferer swings between mania and depression and a bipolar-2 sufferer swings between depression and very little mania. In contrast, a BPDer flips back and forth between loving you and devaluing you.

*A second difference* is seen in the frequency of mood changes. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days.
*
A third difference* is seen in duration. Whereas bipolar moods typically last a week or two, BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours).
*
A fourth difference* is seen in the speed with which the mood change develops. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build slowly over two weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action.

*A fifth difference* is that, whereas bipolar can be treated very successfully in at least 80% of victims by swallowing a pill, BPD cannot be managed by medication because it arises from childhood damage to the emotional core -- not from a change in body chemistry.

*A sixth difference* is that, whereas bipolar disorder can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. That difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly.
*
A seventh difference* is that, whereas a bipolar sufferer is not usually angry, a BPDer is filled with anger that has been carried inside since early childhood. You only have to say or do some minor thing to trigger a sudden release of that anger.
*
An eight difference* is that a bipolar sufferer typically is capable of tolerating intimacy when he is not experiencing strong mania or depression. In contrast, BPDers have such a weak and unstable self image that (except for the brief infatuation period) they cannot tolerate intimacy for long before feeling engulfed and suffocated by your personality.

BPDers therefore will create arguments over nothing as a way to push you away and give them breathing room. Hence, it is not surprising that they tend to create the very worst arguments immediately following the very best of times, i.e., right after an intimate evening or a great weekend spent together.
*
A ninth difference* is that the thinking and behavior of a BPDer includes more mental departures from reality (called "dissociation") wherein "feelings create facts." That is, BPDers typically do not intellectually challenge their intense feelings. Instead, they accept them as accurately reflecting your intentions and motivations. In contrast, bipolar disorder tends to be more neurotic in that the mood swings tend to be based more on extreme exaggerations of fact, not the creation of "fact" out of thin air based solely on feelings.

*A tenth difference* is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if he or she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust for an extended period. Before they can trust others, they must first learn how to trust and love themselves. Sadly, this lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when people cannot trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time -- and almost certainly will.

*An eleventh difference* is that, whereas BPDers are always convinced they are "The Victim," bipolar sufferers usually have a much stronger self image. BPDers therefore have a strong need to validate that false self image by blaming every misfortune on the spouse.
*
Finally, a twelfth difference* is that, although bipolar sufferers are emotionally unstable, they generally are not immature or childlike. BPDers, in contrast, are so immature that their emotional development typically is frozen at about age four. This is why they have a very fragile self image and have difficulty controlling their emotions.​


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## someone90 (May 31, 2013)

Uptown said:


> Someone, if you have time, it would be very helpful if you would tell us which of the 12 differences are consistent with BPD and which are consistent with bipolar. To facilitate that effort, I am listing the 12 differences below so that, in your response, you can comment on each one of them.
> 
> *One difference* is that the mood swings are on two separate spectra having very different polar extremes. A bipolar-1 sufferer swings between mania and depression and a bipolar-2 sufferer swings between depression and very little mania. In contrast, a BPDer flips back and forth between loving you and devaluing you.
> Pretty hard to describe. If an argument starts she gets very defensive and then becomes very mean and selfish. She doesn't lose control but she becomes very unreasonable and angry.
> ...


She is not immature like that. Just unreasonable and unrealistic when her mood swings happen.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I mean no disrespect & do have experience with mental illness, particularly mood disorders such as bipolar.

As Mavash has pointed out, you are doing her no favors by enabling her bad behaviors. Your repeated apologizing to try & calm her down for nothing you did wrong reminds me of rewarding a child who throws a temper tantrum with a cookie "just to keep the peace."

I can see by your OP that you love your wife very much & want her well but the day-to-day can be very difficult for you at times.

Mental illness is NO excuse to treat another badly.

My oldest daughter age 26 may or may not be bipolar. She was dxed at age 15 but seems to have evened out her moods...for the most part with medicinal MJ.

I no longer "enable" her to treat me badly. At first, I was "afraid" to stop enabling fearing that she would cut me out of her life but I decided that I would no longer tolerate bad behavior, so I did a form of "detachment" from HER issues.

I walk away when she treats me badly. I hang up the phone when she treats me badly. I ignore her. I detach.

It worked.

She treats me great now....better than the other family members who are still "afraid" to detach.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

SomeOne, thanks for your detailed response to my list of 12 differences. I agree with you that you are describing behaviors that are far closer to those of bipolar 2 (not BPD). I say bipolar "2" because you do not describe any occurrences of pronounced mania (which is characteristic of bipolar 1). Specifically, you seem to be describing the characteristics of the bipolar subcategory called "mixed state." 

As I mentioned earlier, bipolar mood swings typically take two weeks to develop and then last for several weeks. This is not true, however, for all bipolar sufferers. About 20% to 25% of them experience "ultra rapid cycling," wherein they will have periods in which a mood change occurs within a single day and this happens repeatedly for several days a week. 

Importantly, these ultra rapid cyclers are much harder to treat with medication than are other BPDers. A 2004 report by a panel of experts, for example, concludes that a single medication tends to be ineffective for these patients. It also concludes that they tend to suffer worse side effects from the medications than is true for other bipolar sufferers. 

The report therefore recommends that several drugs (e.g., anti-epilepsy and mood stabilizer and anti-depressant) be prescribed -- but the dosage should be kept "..._below their side-effect thresholds." _Keeping the dosage low greatly increases the likelihood that the patient will stay on the drugs. See CNS Spectrums: Treatment of Rapid-Cycling Bipolar Disorder. I suggest you read all three articles in that report because they all discuss treatment of ultra rapid cycling. Also worth reading is the forum discussion at the end, which includes a discussion of the relevance of thyroid dysfunction.

My understanding is that these ultra rapid cyclers usually fall into the* "mixed state" *category of bipolar -- or into a sub-threshold category called "cyclothemia" (where symptoms are too mild to meet the threshold for being full-blown "bipolar"). With regard to the "mixed state" bipolar category, there are two types. One is "dysphoric mania" but it does not match your description. 

The other type of mixed state is "*agitated depression*," which does seem to match much of your description. It consists of a major depressive episode having superimposed hypomanic symptoms (hypomania is a mild form of mania). The Merck Manual describes agitated depression as "increased energy and some form of anger, from irritability to full blown rage, are the most common symptoms of dysphoric mania." See Bipolar disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

A second possibility, as I noted above, is "cyclothemia." Unlike the mixed state, the depression and mania moods do not occur at the same time and are not as severe as occurs in mixed state. Cyclothemia nonetheless is like the mixed state in that it often takes the form of ultra rapid cycling. 

Significantly, I am discussing these red flags and warning signs only to encourage you to seek good professional advice (if you remain with your W). Neither of us is capable of diagnosing your W's illness, a task that is far more difficult than simply spotting warning signs. I therefore suggest that your W be evaluated by a psychiatrist, ideally one who is known to be very experienced in treating bipolar sufferers.


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## someone90 (May 31, 2013)

Emerald said:


> I mean no disrespect & do have experience with mental illness, particularly mood disorders such as bipolar.
> 
> As Mavash has pointed out, you are doing her no favors by enabling her bad behaviors. Your repeated apologizing to try & calm her down for nothing you did wrong reminds me of rewarding a child who throws a temper tantrum with a cookie "just to keep the peace."
> 
> ...


I hear what you're saying. The issue is I don't "enable" her because I'm scared of being cut out of her life, I'm worried about what she'll possibly do to herself. Sometimes she has these episodes of rage and I can't think of any way to calm her down. If I just hang up on her or leave her I'm worried that she might hurt herself. 
When she calms down she tells me that she doesn't know how to control this and she feels like she's not herself when it happens. I'm just trying to prevent something worse from happening. I'm not sure how else to handle it...


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

someone90 said:


> I hear what you're saying. The issue is I don't "enable" her because I'm scared of being cut out of her life, I'm worried about what she'll possibly do to herself. Sometimes she has these episodes of rage and I can't think of any way to calm her down. If I just hang up on her or leave her I'm worried that she might hurt herself.
> When she calms down she tells me that she doesn't know how to control this and she feels like she's not herself when it happens. I'm just trying to prevent something worse from happening. I'm not sure how else to handle it...


Okay you don't enable.

Does she self-mutilate? Is she a cutter? Does she threaten suicide and/or has she attempted suicide?

Only a professional can dx but if she is bipolar & it certainly sounds like it, then the rages are a symptom of mania. During mania, she is not of a sound mind. Manic people have been known to throw themselves out of moving cars among other completely irrational behaviors.

If she is bipolar, then she needs a prescription for a mood stabilizer and an anti-depressant. Alternative treatments can work but have a very low success rate. The suicide rate for people with bipolar is off the charts but the treatment success rate is very successful.

In summary, your wife is very ill & mentally unstable. Like Uptown suggests, she needs to see a psychiatrist who specializes in mood disorders & bipolar.


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