# Dating a Woman With Kids



## Bandit

I apologize if this is in the wrong area but the topic came up at work and we were debating it.. I myself would adamantly refuse date a woman with children as would "nearly" all the other single and childless men that I talked too. The caveat being that those single men that said they would were what' I would consider to be of lower stock value (less financially secure, uglier etc.) than the ones that said they would not. As for me, again I would not, under no circumstance as I feel that's her cross to bear not mine and I honestly feel that she has lower intrinsic value than a comparable female without kids. I'm not trying to hurt anybodies feelings, just giving an opinion.. 

So I'm curious what the forums take on the issue is...


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## Hope1964

Wow, I am glad my hubby didn't have your opinion 15 years ago.  I was a single mom with 3 little kids. 

What is your reasoning?? Why is a woman with kids inferior, and why is a guy who dates her inferior??? Way to pass judgement.

Nice to know you think I'm a lesser being. Good grief.


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## PBear

Good luck with that as you get older, though... I can see the appeal of not having the extra relationships of children in play, but you're probably missing out on some quality potential partners. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lionelhutz

If I was in my 20s or even early 30s, I just couldn't see getting into a serious relationship with a woman with children. Why start with a new relationship early in life with a boat load of complications?

Now I would be less concerned and I don't think I have any absolute rules. But I would still be cautious. Depending on the jurisdiction, there might be a huge concern for a potential support obligation for her children in the event of a break up.


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## Lon

you are perfectly allowed to have that opinion, if you don't want to date a woman with children then please don't, everyone is better off when we live according to our principles, so hold out for the one you really want.

Personally I think you are foolish for writing such a person off, I understand there are some extra considerations that go along with that but it doesn't mean they have less worth, you are likely passing over some very wonderful people all because of the stigma of some label. Also for me, as a newly divorced father of one, I find that most single childless women are very not compatible - they are either younger and are more interested in being at the gym, the nightclub or going after rich guys that pay for them to travel the world, or else they are older and haven't found someone to love forever yet because they have psychological issues. I realize I am unfairly generalizing too, but I am open-minded and am certainly not going to assign value based solely on their history, I want to look at the good qualities too.


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## Mavash.

You obviously haven't met my best friend. She's a 31 year old single mother of three. She is HOT. I mean smokin hot and super nice to boot. Her kids are nice/well behaved/cute and whoever gets her is one lucky guy.

Only reason she got divorced is she unknowingly married a narcissist who didn't want to do anything in the marriage. Too selfish.

But hey if you don't want to date single moms then don't.


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## Bandit

Hope1964 said:


> Wow, I am glad my hubby didn't have your opinion 15 years ago. I was a single mom with 3 little kids.
> 
> What is your reasoning?? Why is a woman with kids inferior, and why is a guy who dates her inferior??? Way to pass judgement.
> 
> Nice to know you think I'm a lesser being. Good grief.



Take what I am about to say with a grain of salt and understand I that I use a lot of metaphors and/or analogies to get my point across so don't get offended. 


Why would I get a used car if I can get the same model new and at a lesser cost?

It could even be more to the extreme in that why would I choose a burned out structure over one that is still inhabitable? 

If perhaps I had goofed earlier in life and had kids my opinion would probably be different, but as a man that has no kids there is no incentive to date a woman that has them. The reverse is also true and women without kids are less likely to date men with them.. again as they see men tied down with baggage have less intrinsic value than men without them. 

There could also be a genetic component to it as I could never love somebody elses kids like they were my own, or more than my Australian Shepherd for that matter as there is no genetic tie in either instance. In it's most primal sense I achieve no benefit from the survival of "her" offspring as my genetics are not being pushed forward; it is however a good deal for the female that now gets help from an unrelated male pushing her genetics forward (the reverse is also true).. 

Additionally I think that those with kids are for the most part resigned to the fact that they will be forced to date or considerably more likely to have success dating 'others with kids'; thus missing out on potentially healthier or better mates themselves.

For those that stated this choice 'limits my ability to meet quality people' or 'am missing the chance to connect because some women with kids are really great people' I will rebut that the following way. There is no loss for me nor can there be as having kids is an instant dis-qualifier regardless; you are in my opinion not worth dating. The same would hold true for other beliefs that people hold, some won't date big girls, thus all big girls are not worth dating regardless of the personality; or others won't date a specific race, does that mean that race is without good people? nope.. just that it does not matter because that is a line that cannot and will not be crossed and thus the are not worth dating because the fail to meet certain criteria. 

That's like saying your missing out because you don't like licorice.. nope.. I hate the stuff... not missing out on a thing.. 

My choice to not date women with kids is 'a choice', not a stipulation forced upon me by my situation. It would be considerably easier for me (if I chose ) to play both sides of the field (dating both women with and without kids) than it would be for someone without kids to do the same. The opportunities for me would also be greater amongst both types of women than for a single dad.

Again not trying to hurt anybodies feelings, just debating a topic and getting perspectives.


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## Hope1964

Wow. The air must be pretty thin way up on that pedestal you're on.

It's fine to say 'don't be offended' but that's like me saying 'don't be offended' when I tell you that you suck because your penis is only 6 inches long.

I really hope that your life experiences still to come open up that mind of yours.


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## that_girl

LOL

My husband dated me because I had my shet together with my life and being a single mom. All the child-less women he had been dating were losers. I had it all 

I dated a man with a child once. ONCE. His ex wife was a HORRIBLE PERSON and I had to break up with him. He was so weak and wimpy around her. Yuck.


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## that_girl

I do think this post is insensitive though.

You're on a marriage/divorce forum with people who have children who may be dating soon.

Way to boost the morale


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

LOL.
I don't feel that way at all.
It's probably better for you that you are a man, so you will never have to worry about feeling that way personally.
I think that you can tell a lot about a woman from the children she has raised, and how she manages parenting and dating. Who knows, if you grow your own you could get a woman who changes both in shape, personality and availability to you after she bears your children. 
There's also the risk that she might not be a good mother after all, I mean, in parenting there is the mother and your child...your child might not be easy to parent, some easy-going men have children who don't have exactly the same personality as them, it's not really something you can control. Ask any parent.
I think it's good to be in touch with your own desires in terms of dating and marriage. Only one person needs to agree with you and I guess that would be the woman you marry. It's good to respect your own preferences. 

Some men date women with children so that they can use the children as a sort of reason to keep the women in a bad relationship, or because they can't deal with an independent woman who might not need to stick to a schedule imposed by school, day care, etc. These men choose women with children because they know the woman is kind of trapped. 

So I don't think that all men who are willing and want to date women with children are saints. 

It has to do with intent. 
I think you might do well to try to be more open-minded, so that you don't unintentionally sell yourself short. If you want children, you might check to make sure that you are fertile, for instance, before making a decision about a wife. Of course, there's always adoption.

I once dated a guy with two kids and I had to break it off because I couldn't agree with his parenting style. It was really sad. I think that's a risk you take when dating and you keep the kids out of it til it's serious, then you meet the kids and it is clear that there's some kind of issue and it's a huge elephant in the room. I guess if I'd been more experienced and mature, I might have suggested some kind of counseling, but the guy was a psychologist and also it would have been really forward of me to think that we had that kind of commitment that I could suggest 'family' counseling. I think he had some issues still to work out with his family so I suggested he live in a duplex next to his ex-wife and kids and that's what he did. But I seriously don't know how it worked out for him, maybe they all reconciled. I know his kids needed him, so that's the choice I made. I can really see your point about not dating people with kids, but the underlying reasons of lower value, I can't say I agree with that. I think value is stable whether a person has kids or not, maybe value to you and the time you would want from a spouse is lower, but generally speaking, I don't think it applies.


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## Bandit

that_girl said:


> I do think this post is insensitive though.
> 
> You're on a marriage/divorce forum with people who have children who may be dating soon.
> 
> Way to boost the morale


It's not about boosting morale, its' about facing the facts.. Granted I am probably one of those soon to be divorced folks if reconciliation fails due to the fact that my other half "shopped around so to speak"-- you can track down my other posts if your interested.

Looking at it for what it may be I am SOOOOOOOO Glad, we never had kids and I was careful... as I much prefer to go back into the dating world a truly single human being without baggage...I want to be as marketable as possible and kids would lower my resale value on the open market; thus limiting my options considerably. (hence the debate at work started)..

Are there any guys in here without kids such as myself that have an opinion?.. I seem to be getting jaded opinions, from women with kids who justify their lifes choices and personal value by holding an alternative point of view- IMHO - I may be wrong. 

My question is would you ladies feel the same way if you did not have kids and were back in the dating arena? Would you feel more empowered and more confident in choosing your mate without your own baggage? Would you be less likely to date a single dad than the a guy without kids (all else being equal, they both have jobs, a head on their shoulders and their stuff together and neither are a playboy.)?

Look at it from that perspective, the perspective of you don't have kids and are looking for a new serious relationship.. Which way are you going to lean? the single dad or mom or the single guy or woman?


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

I like it when a guy is chatting with me and tells me flat out he doesn't date women with kids. Saves time. Doesn't offend me at all. I do get leery though when I hear a guy flat out say he likes kids. To me, that sounds like a red flag, because he hasn't met MINE. LOL. I would never say I like kids. It really depends on the kids. I've met kids I got along with great, click, click, click. Whereas their parents were just baggage. Not a dating relationship, but just by example. Children are not really extensions of the parent, they are separate people and you are either open to having a working relationship with them and know how to relate to them whether they are in your family or not, or you don't want anything to do with them unless they're biologically yours. Another issue would be to confuse the children with the fact that they often come with an extended family, representing a potential spouse's history. I can certainly see wanting to avoid that, why expose yourself to a relationship with your spouse's ex, on account of the children being involved. In a small town or a big city, maybe this works. In suburbia it seems to have more land mines involved, maybe that's just my impression though.


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## Lon

Bandit, we all have our preferences, and there is nothing wrong with looking for a woman who doesn't have children. But this is your own personal values, just because you don't value it doesn't mean something has no value... but you probably won't understand this distinciton because you seem to hold very objective opinions about people - people aren't the same as cars, no people are the exact same model.

The fact is there are single men out there who don't diminish a woman's value just because she has children, in some cases it may even help you determine how good of a mother she may be to your own future children if you are looking to ever have any.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

My husband is an excellent step-father. My daughter views him as her biological father. My husband and I both been previously married. I'm was with child, he was not. We are very happy as a couple!

Our marriage has been very strong these last 12 years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear

I'd say that people have a tendency to stick with their same situation. So a guy with kids might seek a woman with kids about the same age. Or someone who doesn't have kids might look for someone without kids. Just makes things easier, as that other person probably will understand where you're at in your life. It's the same reason why many people stick to someone close to their own age, close to their own income level or education. Of course, there's always room for people to step outside their box, and there's nothing wrong with that, either.

I don't see this as one person having a lower "dating rank" than someone else. It's just a way to seek out someone you're compatible with. Perhaps thats where objections start in this thread...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

Bandit said:


> I apologize if this is in the wrong area but the topic came up at work and we were debating it.. I myself would adamantly refuse date a woman with children as would "nearly" all the other single and childless men that I talked too. The caveat being that those single men that said they would were what' I would consider to be of lower stock value (less financially secure, uglier etc.) than the ones that said they would not. As for me, again I would not, under no circumstance as I feel that's her cross to bear not mine and I honestly feel that she has lower intrinsic value than a comparable female without kids. I'm not trying to hurt anybodies feelings, just giving an opinion..
> 
> So I'm curious what the forums take on the issue is...


i thought the same thing...
then i met someone and fell very in love with her and it didnt seem to matter any more.


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## LaxUF

I can appreciate your position of preferring not to date someone with children because I feel the same way (especially small children). However... 

As a woman who is educated, financially independent, emotionally stable, very attractive (not meant to sound egotistical - I'm a model so it's part of the job)... and I just so happen to be single mom with a brilliant, athletic, charming & well mannered teenage boy; I do take offense to the notion that I am less valuable than another woman (or any woman or man for that matter). 

I've yet to date or have a long term relationship (almost married two) with any man between the ages of 25-38 who had any reservations about my single parent status. I don't expect any of them to step into his father's shoes as that position has been filled. 

If I could make a suggestion not only for the point of your discussion but in the event you do find yourself "on the market" you may want to consider revising your approach & choice of words to avoid inadvertently offending others... especially those of us that consider our beloved child(ren) the greatest achievement & blessing of their life.

Just a suggestion...


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## that_girl

Bandit said:


> It's not about boosting morale, its' about facing the facts.. Granted I am probably one of those soon to be divorced folks if reconciliation fails due to the fact that my other half "shopped around so to speak"-- you can track down my other posts if your interested.
> 
> Looking at it for what it may be I am SOOOOOOOO Glad, we never had kids and I was careful... as I much prefer to go back into the dating world a truly single human being without baggage...I want to be as marketable as possible and kids would lower my resale value on the open market; thus limiting my options considerably. (hence the debate at work started)..
> 
> Are there any guys in here without kids such as myself that have an opinion?.. I seem to be getting jaded opinions, from women with kids who justify their lifes choices and personal value by holding an alternative point of view- IMHO - I may be wrong.
> 
> My question is would you ladies feel the same way if you did not have kids and were back in the dating arena? Would you feel more empowered and more confident in choosing your mate without your own baggage? Would you be less likely to date a single dad than the a guy without kids (all else being equal, they both have jobs, a head on their shoulders and their stuff together and neither are a playboy.)?
> 
> Look at it from that perspective, the perspective of you don't have kids and are looking for a new serious relationship.. Which way are you going to lean? the single dad or mom or the single guy or woman?


I wouldn't date a man with children because usually there is a crazy ex wife. lol. 

My ex was not crazy. He stays away from our life, but is very involved with our daughter. No craziness. But I set it up that way.

And every one has a preference. I don't date White boys. lol but I'm white. oh well.


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## ARF

The lesser stock comment was amusing.

I dated a single mom when I was a single and childless. She was a cool girl. Attractive, hard working, fun, etc.

I must be Quasimodo I guess.


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## Bandit

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> I like it when a guy is chatting with me and tells me flat out he doesn't date women with kids. Saves time. Doesn't offend me at all. I do get leery though when I hear a guy flat out say he likes kids.


I agree I think honest is the best policy; however, I have found times in my younger years when a woman was downright offended when I said those exact words.. It's a deal breaker.

Yeah taking Michael Jackson home is probably a bad idea..other red flags "I used to be a Catholic Priest" or "I used to be actively involved in the Scouts".



Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> I can certainly see wanting to avoid that, why expose yourself to a relationship with your spouse's ex, on account of the children being involved. In a small town or a big city, maybe this works. In suburbia it seems to have more land mines involved, maybe that's just my impression though.



Also true, no need for me to bring all those extra folks into my potentially blossoming relationship unless I am forced to as a matter of my own circumstance..ie.. I also have kids.


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## JustaJerk

> I wouldn't date a man with children because usually there is a crazy ex wife. lol.


I can relate to this. I dated a really nice single mom back in the day, but the [email protected]#$ing ex would not quit. He would always find some reason to disrupt the relationship. After awhile, I just couldn't deal with his sh!t... I had to let her go. I really dug her too.


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## anotherguy

Bandit said:


> I apologize if this is in the wrong area but the topic came up at work and we were debating it.. I myself would adamantly refuse date a woman with children as would "nearly" all the other single and childless men that I talked too. The caveat being that those single men that said they would were what' I would consider to be of lower stock value (less financially secure, uglier etc.) than the ones that said they would not. As for me, again I would not, under no circumstance as I feel that's her cross to bear not mine and I honestly feel that she has lower intrinsic value than a comparable female without kids. I'm not trying to hurt anybodies feelings, just giving an opinion..
> 
> So I'm curious what the forums take on the issue is...


Congratulations. That is one of the more reprehenible lines of thought I have seen in quite a while. Nice job!

'lower stock'? 'her cross to bear, not mine'? _*'lower intrinsic value'?*_ Are you effing kidding me?

Good luck with all that. :scratchhead: Grow up, and someday you may see that women with kids have, in all liklihood, leared much more about life and love than you have so far, evidently.


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## COGypsy

PBear said:


> I don't see this as one person having a lower "dating rank" than someone else. It's just a way to seek out someone you're compatible with. Perhaps thats where objections start in this thread...
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wouldn't you say though that "rank" is relative to the pool you're in? I mean, in a lot of areas, I'm pretty well educated, have a good job, make pretty good money. But if you put me in a different social setting, that "rank" can change drastically. If I were being compared to the docs and faculty I work with, my masters degree is nothing to write home about. If I'm at a neighborhood pub for football, I could well be the only one in there with a postgrad degree. It doesn't change me.

Personally, I wouldn't ever seriously date a guy with kids at home. I don't want them myself, why would I want someone else's? And while I realize that a new partner doesn't replace the other same-sex parent, talent shows and soccer games just aren't a part of what I want to be doing with my time. I'll stick to spending brief intense periods of time spoiling my nieces and nephews in wildly inappropriate ways, lol. And then going back to my quiet, peaceful, neat home.

So for me, all other things being equal--the guy with no kids has a significantly higher "dating rank". For me. Now, I don't consider a guy with kids "used goods" or otherwise "defective", which may be the point of contention here. But I don't consider them an ideal partner either. To each their own.


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## Hope1964

COGypsy said:


> I don't want them myself, why would I want someone else's?


This is an honest opinion. The OP has painted all single moms as defective. There's a huge difference.


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## MEM2020

Bandit,
What jumps out at me is this very "formulaic" model you seem to favor. That approach lends itself to a fairly clear cut "trade the car" if a nicer one is willing to share your parking space. 
Funny thing about loyalty - it only matters when things go bad through circumstances beyond your control.
BTW I find it a bit ironic you are on here telling a whole class of females that you wouldn't consider them, while your wife is clearly stomping on her vows and your self esteem.




Bandit said:


> I agree I think honest is the best policy; however, I have found times in my younger years when a woman was downright offended when I said those exact words.. It's a deal breaker.
> 
> Yeah taking Michael Jackson home is probably a bad idea..other red flags "I used to be a Catholic Priest" or "I used to be actively involved in the Scouts".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also true, no need for me to bring all those extra folks into my potentially blossoming relationship unless I am forced to as a matter of my own circumstance..ie.. I also have kids.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

Lon said:


> Bandit, we all have our preferences, and there is nothing wrong with looking for a woman who doesn't have children. But this is your own personal values, just because you don't value it doesn't mean something has no value... but you probably won't understand this distinciton because you seem to hold very objective opinions about people - people aren't the same as cars, no people are the exact same model.
> 
> The fact is there are single men out there who don't diminish a woman's value just because she has children, in some cases it may even help you determine how good of a mother she may be to your own future children if you are looking to ever have any.


To add to that, there are some single moms who don't diminish their own value based upon having had children. A woman who parents well builds self-esteem. So it may very well be that the tables are turned, and you can't measure up yourself value-wise in the eyes of the single mom, since you have nothing to show in terms of proven parenting ability, yet if willing to date a woman with children, are suggesting that you are competent based on interest alone. This doesn't always end well. The upside is that if the single mom is a good parent, the children are resilient, and the tidy little tricks stepdaddy has used to gain approval are found to be short-lived and of little value to the children in their day to day lives. They might end up feeling used, even bought. It's a rare man who is allowed the opportunity to step parent. As you suggest, it's not for everyone. I mean, kids call the shots as they see them. They will tell a person they've got a big nose, ask nosy questions, laugh when you put ketchup on your scrambled eggs, snitch on mom about your driving habits, and so forth. It really takes experience to share one's life with kids, and a huge sense of humor, and a forgiving and flexible ego. For some people, it's just an easy matter of cleaning up their language. Or having to pick up habits that the kids are expected to have - like washing hands. And not picking boogers. Hey, look at Obama, when he had to start sharing his life with all the kids of the nation, he gave up smoking!


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## JustaJerk

> those single men that said they would were what' I would consider to be of lower stock value (less financially secure, uglier etc.) than the ones that said they would not.


Believe me, _brah_... I'm the total antithesis of what you just described.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

"those single men that said they would were what' I would consider to be of lower stock value (less financially secure, uglier etc.) than the ones that said they would not. "

OP. Your single men friends should be asked to explain why it is that the ugly, financially insecure women got laid by men, which is, presumably, how they became pregnant. I think they have some kind of logic gap going on. Usually women with kids are attractive enough to have gained sexual attention, and generally speaking have more tax deductions and child support than their counterparts. Before kids, chances are they were financially secure, because really, finances are what makes a woman attractive? Or 1/2 of the equation proposed by your friends, the other being not ugly. I suppose that it's possible that the procreation took place in the dark, where bank accounts were not checked prior...but then that makes the dads equally as unattractive and unfit as partners as the women who become mothers, due to bad selection techniques and lack of understanding of consequences of short-term choices.

Ask your friends to explain why only poor and ugly women get knocked up, by guys who were single and chose them for partners, and please get back to us on their remarks to this question.


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## Hope1964

I'm sure he'll just say that it was having kids that made them poor and ugly  and that the guys who knocked them up were obviously of lesser quality than he and his friends, the exalted beings they are.


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## COGypsy

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> "those single men that said they would were what' I would consider to be of lower stock value (less financially secure, uglier etc.) than the ones that said they would not. "
> 
> OP. Your single men friends should be asked to explain why it is that the ugly, financially insecure women got laid by men, which is, presumably, how they became pregnant. I think they have some kind of logic gap going on. Usually women with kids are attractive enough to have gained sexual attention, and generally speaking have more tax deductions and child support than their counterparts. Before kids, chances are they were financially secure, because really, finances are what makes a woman attractive? Or 1/2 of the equation proposed by your friends, the other being not ugly. I suppose that it's possible that the procreation took place in the dark, where bank accounts were not checked prior...but then that makes the dads equally as unattractive and unfit as partners as the women who become mothers, due to bad selection techniques and lack of understanding of consequences of short-term choices.
> 
> Ask your friends to explain why only poor and ugly women get knocked up, by guys who were single and chose them for partners, and please get back to us on their remarks to this question.


I think the OP's point was that it was the guys who said they would date single mothers that were poorer and uglier than guys that wouldn't.

To that I say, with an opinion like that, it's a good thing HE doesn't have to date those guys! :lol:


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## FirstYearDown

I have reported the first post in this thread. It is highly offensive.

I dated a man with a child once. When we broke up, it was hard to leave his son behind. I also need to be first in a relationship and when a man has kids, the girlfriend or stepmom is never the first priority. There were too many cancelled dates. 

If I found myself single again, I would stay away from fathers. This is not because of any ludicrous beliefs like "they are used up and ugly." It is purely because I am childfree and I don't want to become a de facto mother figure, nor do I want to deal with snotty kids who are still bruised from a divorce.

I met a handsome and kindhearted older gentleman who wanted to date me. His kids thought I was too young for him, so he listened to them.  Yeah, it makes sense to let the kids decide who Daddy dates or falls in love with.


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## that_girl

My husband is neither poor nor ugly. He's fine as hell  Sexy and smart and successful....rawr. 

I had an 8 year old when we met. She's almost 13 now. They get along great.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

FirstYearDown said:


> Yeah, it makes sense to let the kids decide who Daddy dates or falls in love with.


yup.

just for the he11 of it i will throw friends in there too.


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## tacoma

Bandit said:


> So I'm curious what the forums take on the issue is...


I married a woman with kids, I won`t do it again.

I`d try my damnedest to avoid single mothers if I were back on the market but I imagine looking for women in my age (40) range they`re either going to be moms or going to want to be soon and I`m not having any more kids either soo....

I`ll just have to have a series of meaningless sexual relationships with as many 20somethings as I can muster.



I can live with that.


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## FirstYearDown

As long as you are not misleading the 20somethings, rock on with your bad self! 

I hate predatory older men who take advantage of young women.


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## tacoma

Bandit said:


> Are there any guys in here without kids such as myself that have an opinion?.. I seem to be getting jaded opinions, from women with kids who justify their lifes choices and personal value by holding an alternative point of view- IMHO - I may be wrong.


Let me clarify my position.

I`m married with kid therefore would have kid if divorced.
I married a woman with two kids so I have a valid perspective on this topic.

Even with myself being a father, I would consider a single mom to immediately have a strike against her for dating material.

Would I absolutely write them off as the OP does?

No because I know I often can`t help who I`m attracted to and there are a lot of considerations.

-What`s custody like with her kids ?
-How old are said kids?
-What are the kids personalities?

However, I would indeed attempt to avoid single moms if at all possible.
Been down that road already, got the T-Shirt.


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## tacoma

FirstYearDown said:


> As long as you are not misleading the 20somethings, rock on with your bad self!
> 
> I hate predatory older men who take advantage of young women.


Aww First, I`m an ethical man!!


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## Babyheart

Well to each his own I guess. I can see why he does not want to date a woman with kids. A lot of people won't date anybody who is divorced either. 

But to say women are less than because of the kids - well that does indeed speak volumes about the type of person he is. 

Good luck when you get back into the dating pool!!


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## Goldmember357

Hope1964 said:


> Wow, I am glad my hubby didn't have your opinion 15 years ago. I was a single mom with 3 little kids.
> 
> What is your reasoning?? Why is a woman with kids inferior, and why is a guy who dates her inferior??? Way to pass judgement.
> 
> Nice to know you think I'm a lesser being. Good grief.


Its not right to judge them as "inferior" but it has to primarily do with the fact that they are seen as a burden and that they have shown "bad judgement"

Shows or some guys think it shows the woman is damaged and is more likely to be a "Mess" this is not how i think by the way a lot of single mom's were nothing but loyal and got cheated on or abused. However some guys still view those women as "lower" because they were in a marriage that failed and even if they were loving and loyal they had poor judgement in choosing an unfit male and thus are now alone. 

Not fair but that is how it is seen. Seen that "she has failed or messed up and exhibited bad judgement"

Some guy's also want the woman to have had no kids and him and her possibly make the first kids she has ever had.


----------



## that_girl

:rofl:

Burden and bad judgment :rofl:

What burden? I supported my child on my teaching salary. No burden.

And bad judgement? Who the hell are you to judge what happened in any relationship?

I'm so glad my husband is amazing  Men out there seem a little 'off'...

ETA: I was single with a daughter for 7 years. Her father and I had no drama...we co-parented...I didn't depend on him for anything except keeping our parenting schedule. It was quite awesome. I was a part-time mom. May not be the way to do things for everyone, but it was great for me...I was young so I had a life outside of motherhood which allowed me to date and meet people. NO ONE met my child. No one. I supported myself and wasn't looking for a daddy for my kid...or someone to pay my bills. I was fine on my own. I was just looking for the love of my life <3 and I found him.


----------



## Goldmember357

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> "those single men that said they would were what' I would consider to be of lower stock value (less financially secure, uglier etc.) than the ones that said they would not. "
> 
> OP. Your single men friends should be asked to explain why it is that the ugly, financially insecure women got laid by men, which is, presumably, how they became pregnant. I think they have some kind of logic gap going on. Usually women with kids are attractive enough to have gained sexual attention, and generally speaking have more tax deductions and child support than their counterparts. Before kids, chances are they were financially secure, because really, finances are what makes a woman attractive? Or 1/2 of the equation proposed by your friends, the other being not ugly. I suppose that it's possible that the procreation took place in the dark, where bank accounts were not checked prior...but then that makes the dads equally as unattractive and unfit as partners as the women who become mothers, due to bad selection techniques and lack of understanding of consequences of short-term choices.
> 
> Ask your friends to explain why only poor and ugly women get knocked up, by guys who were single and chose them for partners, and please get back to us on their remarks to this question.



Most people are not attractive and having kids does not make a woman attractive i am not sure what percentage of the world you consider attractive but i do not consider most people attractive. Id say like 95% of people are unattractive and or below or at "average" most women are not attractive in regards to the overall population and most men are not either. A woman having kids does not mean she is attractive it just means she opened her legs or was raped or something. Statistically lower income women and people who are less financially secure become single parents and have children out of wedlock. Also odd considering college educated women who are slim and in shape often are attractive and these women are less likely to become single mothers. College educated women tend to go for college educated men for example and those men would be higher in status than men who did not have set backgrounds. Anyhow people within the same social class tend to date and marry the most. In addition people who are college educated graduates past the age of 26 who marry are least likely to divorce compared to other groups. 

Women who get pregnant and left are not often more attractive than the woman who has less kids. Women in higher educated more westernized countries tend to have less kids (which is not always a good thing) but they tend to be in better control of their lives from what it seems. Education plays a huge role in it and women who get pregnant and left often are on the lower scale of things. In addition might not compare to the woman who is very smart out of a rich area of some town who more than likely might be more feminine do to money and who knows perhaps better genes. Is it any wonder rich men marry attractive beautiful women also?


----------



## 2nd_t!me iz_best

that_girl said:


> Men out there seem a little 'off'...


yes, we are


----------



## that_girl

Goldmember357 said:


> Women who get pregnant and left are not often more attractive than the woman who has less kids. Women in higher educated more westernized countries tend to have less kids (which is not always a good thing) but they tend to be in better control of their lives from what it seems. Education plays a huge role in it and women who get pregnant and left often are on the lower scale of things. In addition might not compare to the woman who is very smart out of a rich area of some town who more than likely might be more feminine do to money and who knows perhaps better genes. Is it any wonder rich men marry attractive beautiful women also?


I was educated, had a career, had a relationship, got pregnant and left him because...well, that's my business.

But you say "women" like you know we are all the same. 

So, because I got pregnant, and was single, i am not attractive or beautiful? LOL I came from a rich town  

You make no sense.

So, who do you date? Or do you just troll marriage sites...


----------



## EleGirl

Goldmember357 said:


> Its not right to judge them as "inferior" but it has to primarily do with the fact that they are seen as a burden and that they have shown "bad judgement"
> 
> Shows or some guys think it shows the woman is damaged and is more likely to be a "Mess" this is not how i think by the way a lot of single mom's were nothing but loyal and got cheated on or abused. However some guys still view those women as "lower" because they were in a marriage that failed and even if they were loving and loyal they had poor judgement in choosing an unfit male and thus are now alone.
> 
> Not fair but that is how it is seen. Seen that "she has failed or messed up and exhibited bad judgement"
> 
> Some guy's also want the woman to have had no kids and him and her possibly make the first kids she has ever had.


Yep, and the OP is getting divorced. To many women he will be of much lower value and not worth their time. This is especially true of women with no children... because there is a reason his marriage failed. Many will not want to find out what he contributed to the failure.


----------



## that_girl

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> yes, we are


lol You especially!

But I like your "offness".


----------



## EleGirl

Goldmember357 said:


> Most people are not attractive and having kids does not make a woman attractive i am not sure what percentage of the world you consider attractive but i do not consider most people attractive. Id say like 95% of people are unattractive and or below or at "average" most women are not attractive in regards to the overall population and most men are not either. A woman having kids does not mean she is attractive it just means she opened her legs or was raped or something. Statistically lower income women and people who are less financially secure become single parents and have children out of wedlock. Also odd considering college educated women who are slim and in shape often are attractive and these women are less likely to become single mothers. College educated women tend to go for college educated men for example and those men would be higher in status than men who did not have set backgrounds. Anyhow people within the same social class tend to date and marry the most. In addition people who are college educated graduates past the age of 26 who marry are least likely to divorce compared to other groups.
> 
> Women who get pregnant and left are not often more attractive than the woman who has less kids. Women in higher educated more westernized countries tend to have less kids (which is not always a good thing) but they tend to be in better control of their lives from what it seems. Education plays a huge role in it and women who get pregnant and left often are on the lower scale of things. In addition might not compare to the woman who is very smart out of a rich area of some town who more than likely might be more feminine do to money and who knows perhaps better genes. *Is it any wonder rich men marry attractive beautiful women also?*


So the most valuable thing about a woman is looks? :scratchhead:

And good looking, well to do women with good genetics don't end up divorced? :rofl:


----------



## EleGirl

Bandit said:


> I apologize if this is in the wrong area but the topic came up at work and we were debating it.. I myself would adamantly refuse date a woman with children as would "nearly" all the other single and childless men that I talked too. The caveat being that those single men that said they would were what' I would consider to be of lower stock value (less financially secure, uglier etc.) than the ones that said they would not. As for me, again I would not, under no circumstance as I feel that's her cross to bear not mine and I honestly feel that she has lower intrinsic value than a comparable female without kids. I'm not trying to hurt anybodies feelings, just giving an opinion..
> 
> So I'm curious what the forums take on the issue is...


Your post is offensive, not because you might choose some day to date only women with no children, but because your post if filled with disrespectful judgements about women with children and those men who might date them.

Karma has a funny way of messing with people. I will not be surprised if some day we see you back here talking about the single woman with a household of little ones who you cannot get out of your system. :rofl:


----------



## ScaredandUnsure

Do we even care? Not really. Bet many single moms wouldn't want to date you either. Divorce doesn't look good to some people.


----------



## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

OMG, I'm an outlier. (Re: Goldmember357). Good thing I have a statistics degree from an Ivy League, not to mention that red Tango dress and the hot body at age 47, my three marriages and divorces and my THREE children, two out of wedlock. Of course, being a statistician, I can explain how I am an outlier. It's because people are people, they are an evolving species and as soon as you try to define them, they slip through the cracks. Plus, some people who don't read just don't understand that things have not changed at all since human time began, and yet somehow we have managed not just to replace our numbers on this earth but increase them. Somewhere along the line, someone, or a large group of someones, is not playing by the clearly defined rules: one must be college educated, attractive and financially secure to be deemed worthy to parent and procreate. I think once people are more educated, they will stop this irrational behavior and follow along to expectations. Or at least be so immersed by the trying to follow the rulebooks for being in the game, they'll be too exhausted to have sex. And that will be that. On account of trying to follow the rules of rational procreation, our species will become extinct.


----------



## that_girl

EleGirl said:


> So the most valuable thing about a woman is looks? :scratchhead:
> 
> And good looking, well to do women with good genetics don't end up divorced? :rofl:


Or with children, apparently.


----------



## that_girl

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> OMG, I'm an outlier. (Re: Goldmember357). Good thing I have a statistics degree from an Ivy League, not to mention that red Tango dress and the hot body at age 47, my three marriages and divorces and my THREE children, two out of wedlock. Of course, being a statistician, I can explain how I am an outlier. It's because people are people, they are an evolving species and as soon as you try to define them, they slip through the cracks. Plus, some people who don't read just don't understand that things have not changed at all since human time began, and yet somehow we have managed not just to replace our numbers on this earth but increase them. Somewhere along the line, someone, or a large group of someones, is not playing by the clearly defined rules: one must be college educated, attractive and financially secure to be deemed worthy to parent and procreate. I think once people are more educated, they will stop this irrational behavior and follow along to expectations. Or at least be so immersed by the trying to follow the rulebooks for being in the game, they'll be too exhausted to have sex. And that will be that. On account of trying to follow the rules of rational procreation, our species will become extinct.


If i have to be stupid to enjoy good sex, then so be it. :rofl:


----------



## FirstYearDown

tacoma said:


> Aww First, I`m an ethical man!!


:lol::lol: No such thing. 

Just messing with you. 

I have two T shirts with "Dated Single Dad" on them. They are deep in my Single Girl drawer, where all the memories and my journals are.


----------



## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

that_girl said:


> If i have to be stupid to enjoy good sex, then so be it. :rofl:


I agree, I mean, it's not like it's better if you're thinking. Brain, check, disengage, check, orgasm, check.


----------



## 2nd_t!me iz_best

that_girl said:


> lol You especially!
> 
> But I like your "offness".


umm, thanks?


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Bandit said:


> Are there any guys in here without kids such as myself that have an opinion?.. I seem to be getting jaded opinions, from women with kids who justify their lifes choices and personal value by holding an alternative point of view- IMHO - I may be wrong.
> 
> My question is would you ladies feel the same way if you did not have kids and were back in the dating arena? Would you feel more empowered and more confident in choosing your mate without your own baggage? Would you be less likely to date a single dad than the a guy without kids (all else being equal, they both have jobs, a head on their shoulders and their stuff together and neither are a playboy.)?
> 
> Look at it from that perspective, the perspective of you don't have kids and are looking for a new serious relationship.. Which way are you going to lean? the single dad or mom or the single guy or woman?


I am a separated woman who has two kids but I'm going to give you my honest answer:

I'm with you dude. If I was single and out there dating and didn't have kids I would NOT get involved with a single dad. No way. 

In fact, I'll take it further. I have kids but one is going to college and the other is going into high school. They are pretty independent at this point and I'm enjoying the personal freedom that comes with having older children. I would never get seriously involved with any guy who is raising children. I wouldn't want to get involved with his kids, his ex wife or his extended family. I want NONE of that.

So it's a good thing I don't mind being alone. I'd need to find a guy who basically a childless orphan. 

This being the way I feel I can certainly relate to how you feel. IMO there is no right or wrong way to feel, it's just a matter of personal preference. I don't take people's life choices personally. You do what you want and what makes you happy and I'll do what I want to make myself happy. It's all good.

I also think it's commendable that you've looked within yourself and realize what your emotional limits are. That doesn't mean it's the RIGHT way but it's right for YOU. I'm all for informed choices and decisions and sticking with them.


----------



## EleGirl

Freak On a Leash said:


> I am a separated woman who has two kids but I'm going to give you my honest answer:
> 
> I'm with you dude. If I was single and out there dating and didn't have kids I would NOT get involved with a single dad. No way.
> 
> In fact, I'll take it further. I have kids but one is going to college and the other is going into high school. They are pretty independent at this point and I'm enjoying the personal freedom that comes with having older children. I would never get seriously involved with any guy who is raising children. I wouldn't want to get involved with his kids, his ex wife or his extended family. I want NONE of that.
> 
> So it's a good thing I don't mind being alone. I'd need to find a guy who basically a childless orphan.
> 
> This being the way I feel I can certainly relate to how you feel. IMO there is no right or wrong way to feel, it's just a matter of personal preference. I don't take people's life choices personally. You do what you want and what makes you happy and I'll do what I want to make myself happy. It's all good.
> 
> I also think it's commendable that you've looked within yourself and realize what your emotional limits are. That doesn't mean it's the RIGHT way but it's right for YOU. I'm all for informed choices and decisions and sticking with them.


Your point of view is very reasonable. The OP's post was not just saying that he did not want to date any women with children. He made some very disrespectful judgements about women with children and any man who would date one. There is a huge difference in attitude.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Babyheart said:


> But to say women are less than because of the kids - well that does indeed speak volumes about the type of person he is.


Yes, that's the part I take offense at..the passing judgement part. Why pass judgment on this? :scratchhead: Having children isn't a disease, it's a life choice and for those of us who have them, it's a blessing. 

I don't want to personally get involved with someone who has children because it would impact MY life, but it doesn't make them a lesser person or less desirable. It's MY personal preference to date someone without emotional entanglements. 

Just like it would be someone else's preference to NOT date someone like me..a woman with two teenage kids. That doesn't make me a lesser person, just less desirable as far dating goes for someone who would rather not deal with children. 

To each his own.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

EleGirl said:


> Your point of view is very reasonable. The OP's post was not just saying that he did not want to date any women with children. He made some very disrespectful judgements about women with children and any man who would date one. There is a huge difference in attitude.


I'm glad I didn't come off like that. 

Unfortunately the OP made a valid point and then promptly undermined himself with his prejudicial statements. I find that rather puzzling. 

I can see both the point of view where someone would rather not date someone with kids but OTOH I can also see someone WANTING to date someone with a ready-made family as well. It's a matter of personal preference really.


----------



## COGypsy

Goldmember357 said:


> A woman having kids does not mean she is attractive it just means she opened her legs or was raped or something.


Or else she's divorced. 

Just like the majority of the men discussing dating single mothers in this thread.


----------



## COGypsy

Freak On a Leash said:


> I can see both the point of view where someone would rather not date someone with kids but OTOH I can also see someone WANTING to date someone with a ready-made family as well. It's a matter of personal preference really.


Whoa! What? Dating is a matter of personal preference??!!??? Not one-size-fits all right off the shelf!?!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Ya don't say.....makes discussions like this even more puzzling, doesn't it??


----------



## Freak On a Leash

COGypsy said:


> Whoa! What? Dating is a matter of personal preference??!!??? Not one-size-fits all right off the shelf!?!
> 
> :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> Ya don't say.....makes discussions like this even more puzzling, doesn't it??


:lol: Yeah, I'm into the whole "freedom of choice" thing. It's why I eat at Burger King. I'm into "Having it Your Way". 

I've never been much into dictating to others about how things should be done. I'm a "Live and Let Live" type of gal.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Trenton said:


> Oh boy. I'm really making myself laugh tonight.


It's Ok. Have another drink on me. :toast: :smthumbup:


----------



## Lon

tacoma said:


> Let me clarify my position.
> 
> I`m married with kid therefore would have kid if divorced.
> I married a woman with two kids so I have a valid perspective on this topic.
> 
> Even with myself being a father, I would consider a single mom to immediately have a strike against her for dating material.
> 
> Would I absolutely write them off as the OP does?
> 
> No because I know I often can`t help who I`m attracted to and there are a lot of considerations.
> 
> -What`s custody like with her kids ?
> -How old are said kids?
> -What are the kids personalities?
> 
> However, I would indeed attempt to avoid single moms if at all possible.
> Been down that road already, got the T-Shirt.


And there is nothing wrong with having your preference.

Some of us want a coupe, some of us don't mind a little more (sedan) especially if it means supple leather seats in a model that isn't quite as nimble. As long as both come in a convertible (topless) version I wouldn't mind either.

The problem with OP's logic is that since you would even consider a sedan (single mom) means you are of lesser stock value than him (whom must only be worthy of driving a coupe).

(I love car analogies)


----------



## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

COGypsy said:


> Or else she's divorced.
> 
> Just like the majority of the men discussing dating single mothers in this thread.


My children were planned, and I was not married. ?
But I have a FRIEND who is a single mom and she has never married and she ADOPTED.

????


----------



## COGypsy

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> My children were planned, and I was not married. ?
> But I have a FRIEND who is a single mom and she has never married and she ADOPTED.
> 
> ????


Exactly! "Single with kids" doesn't equal "loose and crime victim" the great majority of the time.

Although, something tells me that Goldmember357 probably assumes that loose and rape victim are one and the same anyway.


----------



## Bandit

anotherguy said:


> Congratulations. That is one of the more reprehenible lines of thought I have seen in quite a while. Nice job!
> 
> 'lower stock'? 'her cross to bear, not mine'? _*'lower intrinsic value'?*_ Are you effing kidding me?
> 
> Good luck with all that. :scratchhead: Grow up, and someday you may see that women with kids have, in all liklihood, leared much more about life and love than you have so far, evidently.


Lower intrinsic value to a single guy without kids, don't have to plan date night around baby sitting responsibilities, don't have crazy ex's mucking up the works, don't have to deal with the "your not my daddy bs" down the road, don't have to provide financially for offspring that are not my own, don't have to be chastised by the mother in regards to my parenting style, don't have to hear the "don't talk to my kids that way", don't have to see a constant genetic reminder of the dude she was with before, don't have to play the part of a fool in the eyes of her family, my family or our respective friends (ie.. he's helping her raise so and so's kids), don't have to my relationship and the amount that I love her judged by how I interact with her kids.. I could go on.. but the point being to a single attractive, eligible guy with a lot of dating options that would like to focus on the him/her of the relationship a lady with kids is a drag. 

Kids and this is my limited understanding are a tiny piece of each parent that 'THEY' created and brought into the world. It's a way for established couples to take their relationship to a whole new level, raising a family, grandkids, establishing their line, parenting together, its a good thing.. But for a single guy without kids, it's not my bond... it's playing second fiddle to someone else creation and someone else bond..

I appreciate the apparently unified front put up by all the single moms out there or folks with kids and granted if I had kids I would probably sing an entirely different tune and if I were a single dad this would also be true as I would not want to accept the fact that my dating options have been limited even though I am the same person. Like it or not I would at that point have to face the fact that I have less intrinsic value to single eligible attractive females without kids. I would have to lower the bar so to speak and broaden my horizons and look in places that I would have previously steered clear of for a new mate.


----------



## Bandit

LaxUF said:


> *I don't expect any of them to step into his father's shoes as that position has been filled.
> *.


My point exactly, you would like all the benefits of a mate, shared time, love, help with the financial and home responsibilities, a good role model etc.. but fact remains there is a clear line in the sand "your not their Daddy"..Why would an eligible bachelor set themselves up that way? not really much of an upside...



LaxUF said:


> If I could make a suggestion not only for the point of your discussion but in the event you do find yourself "on the market" you may want to consider revising your approach & choice of words to avoid inadvertently offending others... especially those of us that consider our beloved child(ren) the greatest achievement & blessing of their life.
> 
> Just a suggestion...


Again, your children are the joy of your life, and you will always put them above 'the new guy'.. They can never be 'yall's kids', they will always be your kids.. In a stable relationship were both parents are together they are a shared joy whereas in a relationship where a new guy comes into a relationship where the woman already has kids it is something she has, that he must compete with and come to accept.. and the kicker is even if he does accept them as his own.. "your still not the daddy.. and can never establish that joint bond that parents experience raising their off spring. 

As for offending it saves wasting time getting clear cut disqualifiers out in the beginning.


----------



## Hope1964

Bandit said:


> As for offending it saves wasting time getting clear cut disqualifiers out in the beginning.


Saying "I don't mean to offend you, but you are an inferior human being because you are a single mom" doesn't make it ANY less offensive than saying "You ARE an inferior being because you are a single mom". Do you seriously not GET that? Do you not understand the difference between saying what you did and what, for example, Freak On a Leash said?? :scratchhead:


----------



## Lon

> Lower intrinsic value to a single guy without kids, don't have to plan date night around baby sitting responsibilities, don't have crazy ex's mucking up the works, don't have to deal with the "your not my daddy bs" down the road, don't have to provide financially for offspring that are not my own, don't have to be chastised by the mother in regards to my parenting style, don't have to hear the "don't talk to my kids that way", don't have to see a constant genetic reminder of the dude she was with before, don't have to play the part of a fool in the eyes of her family, my family or our respective friends (ie.. he's helping her raise so and so's kids), don't have to my relationship and the amount that I love her judged by how I interact with her kids.. I could go on.. but the point being to a single attractive, eligible guy with a lot of dating options that would like to focus on the him/her of the relationship a lady with kids is a drag.


No, lower intrinsic value to YOU. You are presuming a whole bunch of problems in your life that really aren't your problems, even if you are dating a single mom, unless you make them to be.

Now sure I have a child, so you may dismiss me, but my brother has never been married, and has no kids, he has dated women both with kids (ranginf from infants to teenagers) and without, and he has no preference. In fact he even had a long term relationship with a woman that had her own kids - you know what happened with that? She turned out to be exactly the kind of woman you are fearing, she expected him to be a replacement daddy/live-in butler. So he dumped her, but he still hasn't let that affect his view of single moms, in fact he's dating one at the moment. If she needs to find a sitter it is her problem, the ex is out of the picture except he pays child support so her child isn't going to be a financial drain, it doesn't really bother him that her child may have some other dudes eyes, because it isn't my brothers kid to deal with.

He has also dated single ladies, and often they turn out to be atleast as crazy as the moms. If you are just looking for someone to shack up with for whatever self-fulfilling purpose you seek, then yeah I guess you need a hard set of filters since this candidate will become your ball and chain, but if you just want to date then you really should open your mind and if you are looking to develop a really loving connection with a wonderful person than you will accept the whole package instead of itemizing each feature. Since you know exactly what you want though, why haven't you found it yet, surely there is dating service that could help you tick off each line on your list?


----------



## Bandit

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Your single men friends should be asked to explain why it is that the ugly, financially insecure women got laid by men, which is, presumably, how they became pregnant. I think they have some kind of logic gap going on. Usually women with kids are attractive enough to have gained sexual attention


That's actually a very easy question to answer and I'll do my best to do so without sounding as though I am attacking.. I don't see it as a logic warp, as a woman's attractiveness or lack there off has very little if anything to do with her ability to find a guy willing to sleep with her. Consequently it has very little to do with her ability to likewise be impregnated. Guys (even very attractive ones) will sleep with women in the lesser 10% of what society would view as attractive. The opposite is not generally true as women (gold diggers and such aside) will generally only sleep with a guy that is as good looking or better than themselves. Think of the stereotypical fat ugly white women that have gaggles of babies with minorities (not meant as a racist comment only an example to put this argument in perspective). This would also apply to unattractive girls having tons of kids in trailer parks with toothless ********.. Society as a whole views them based on their physical attributes, life style etc. to be wholly unattractive yet they are able to successfully mate and produce viable offspring. It has NOTHING to do with attractiveness and is in many cases a situation of likes attract.. or a guy looking for any port in a storm.. So your argument is mute..as far as being able to get pregnant corresponds to attractiveness. 



Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> and generally speaking have more tax deductions and child support than their counterparts.


Again the issue of tax deductions or whether or not the woman receive support or government benefits has little to do with the overall equation unless the guy has a polluted mindset and is looking to set himself up financially by mooching or by having the baby daddy pay for his smokes.




Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Ask your friends to explain why only poor and ugly women get knocked up, by guys who were single and chose them for partners, and please get back to us on their remarks to this question.


Physically attractive women get knocked up and/or make bad short term choices as well. The end result will probably have very little effect on her overall 'physical beauty' (unless the stress drives her to wreck herself physically or something else far fetched). There will, however, (no matter) how you slice it be a detrimental effect to her in so far as how she is viewed by eligible bachelors. Her choices will be limited, and guys that would have dated her (pre-baby) will take a pass (post-baby).


----------



## tobio

Fascinating!

I am currently mourning the loss of my intrinsic value 

I had two very young kids when I met my OH. Years ago he had dated a single mum and swore he would never date a woman with children again... Until me and him got together. The complete irony being we'd known each other for years and he knew I had kids...

My older two's dad is involved in their life so OH is not a replacement father. More he is the male role model in the house for them. There is no competing between him and my kids. 

I don't have a problem with you ruling out certain people to date per se, what I find offensive is your explanation. Maybe it's semantics and you are actually a really great guy who isn't great at explaining what he means. Or maybe you say exactly what you mean. There could well be a wealth of women out there who wouldn't date a divorced guy because they see him as having lower "instrinsic value", relationship baggage, can't handle relationship issues, used goods, [insert cliche here]...


----------



## Bandit

MEM11363 said:


> Bandit,
> BTW I find it a bit ironic you are on here telling a whole class of females that you wouldn't consider them, while your wife is clearly stomping on her vows and your self esteem.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is a choice that she made. Digs at me, or amateurish and immature attempts to hurt my feelings are not really relevant to the debate. It does sadden me that one would feel the need to dig so low or sling mud for no apparent reason in a rather civilized debate amongst adults.



EleGirl said:


> Yep, and the OP is getting divorced. To many women he will be of much lower value and not worth their time. This is especially true of women with no children...


My stock value as a divorcee may well be lower than that of a man who was never married--IDK.. But I'm not going to cry myself to sleep over the issue and I will just accept it for what it is. Although I have never met a female that was against dating a guy that is a divorcee (unless he has hangups etc), and I would imagine in most instances once you got the initial interrogation out of the way. What happened? she cheated etc.. it would hold no more importance that having had a previous girlfriend. 



EleGirl said:


> because there is a reason his marriage failed. Many will not want to find out what he contributed to the failure.


Again this reeks of an attempt to be spiteful, mean, boost oneself or hurt my feelings.. IDK.. Whatever the case it's not relevant to the debate and it's basically an uncalled and exceptionally insensitive stab inferring that you have knowledge in an area in which you are a laymen. 

I think that overwhelming majority of the forum would agree that you have no control over the choices other people choose to make. Additionally sometimes marriages fail simply because you married an A-hole, not because you as an individual failed in some aspect. Making that inference means that you believe in each and every failed relationship both partners share equal responsibility which of course is not the case ie.. your argument means that you believe that your partially to blame for every x boyfriend that cheated on you or lied etc. In many cases you can do everything right, and the other person is just for lack of a better term an F-up. Perhaps the one thing that you could be culpable for is choosing to establish a close relationship with someone like that, but given peoples ability to be deceptive it may in many cases be unavoidable.


----------



## FirstYearDown

Bandit, were *you *not slinging mud at single mothers on a whole? :scratchhead:

Black pot, meet kettle.


----------



## that_girl

This post makes me want to go home and eff my hubs' brains out again (did it this morning).

I love that he's such a good man


----------



## that_girl

AND might I add, I'd rather date someone with kids, than a man with a crazy mom. LOL I am SO HAPPY that I don't have a MIL.

:yay:


----------



## Bandit

FirstYearDown said:


> Bandit, were *you *not slinging mud at single mothers on a whole? :scratchhead:
> 
> Black pot, meet kettle.


Not mud slinging, pointing out the fact that to the average 'single guy without kids' a single mother would have 'less intrinsic value' than a comparable single female (all else being equal). The reverse is also more than likely true (as supported by previous posts on this topic) whereas it concerns single fathers.


I think where you ladies are getting hung up is my choice of words 'intrinsic value'. Which is the actual value of a an asset based on an underlying perception of its true value including all aspects in terms of both tangible and intangible factors. My original post does not say you are 'lesser of a person, or a bad human' only that from the perspective  of many (not all) single childless men, a single mother would be a less attractive option when looking for a mate. 

In it's simplest form there are fewer childless singles looking for single parents than are looking for those without children. Not because they view single parents as horrible people, but simply because they are a less valuable dating prospect after considering both tangible and intangible factors.


----------



## Hope1964

Bandit said:


> I think where you ladies are getting hung up is my choice of words 'intrinsic value'.


I can't speak for everyone, but I am hung up on the fact you seem to have an ego the size of Jupiter going on.


----------



## raising5boyz

As a single mother of FIVE boys.....I will say I was definitly eliminated out of your dating pool......AND THANK GOODNESS!! I wouldn't want to waste my time.....

Thank goodness I can look at each person as an individual....who they are....and THEN decide their value!  

Sad that in some peoples eyes kids are considered "baggage". Cause I would consider baggage to be attitudes, poor self esteem, narcism, lack of values......and other such ISSUES. I guess or ideas of baggage differ greatly....

Good luck to you in your seeking of someone 'worthy' of you. So glad i am disqualified from dating someone like you!!!


----------



## FirstYearDown

Bandit said:


> Not mud slinging, pointing out the fact that to the average 'single guy without kids' a single mother would have 'less intrinsic value' than a comparable single female (all else being equal). The reverse is also more than likely true (as supported by previous posts on this topic) whereas it concerns single fathers. This actually makes sense. Most *young *single guys don't want women with kids, unless they have one/some of their own. There are exceptions though.
> 
> 
> I think where you ladies are getting hung up is my choice of words 'intrinsic value'. Which is the actual value of a an asset based on an underlying perception of its true value including all aspects in terms of both tangible and intangible factors. My original post does not say you are 'lesser of a person, or a bad human' only that from the perspective  of many (not all) single childless men, a single mother would be a less attractive option when looking for a mate. It depends on the age and maturity of the man.
> 
> In it's simplest form there are fewer childless singles looking for single parents than are looking for those without children. Not because they view single parents as horrible people, but simply because they are a less valuable dating prospect after considering both tangible and intangible factors.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Lon said:


> And there is nothing wrong with having your preference.
> 
> Some of us want a coupe, some of us don't mind a little more (sedan) especially if it means supple leather seats in a model that isn't quite as nimble. As long as both come in a convertible (topless) version I wouldn't mind either.
> 
> The problem with OP's logic is that since you would even consider a sedan (single mom) means you are of lesser stock value than him (whom must only be worthy of driving a coupe).
> 
> (I love car analogies)


I drive a yellow Jeep Wrangler that's both topless AND doorless. What does that mean?  :smthumbup:


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Bandit said:


> don't have to plan date night around baby sitting responsibilities, don't have crazy ex's mucking up the works, don't have to deal with the "your not my daddy bs" down the road, don't have to provide financially for offspring that are not my own, don't have to be chastised by the mother in regards to my parenting style, don't have to hear the "don't talk to my kids that way", don't have to see a constant genetic reminder of the dude she was with before, don't have to play the part of a fool in the eyes of her family, my family or our respective friends (ie.. he's helping her raise so and so's kids), don't have to my relationship and the amount that I love her judged by how I interact with her kids.. I could go on.. but the point being to a single attractive, eligible guy with a lot of dating options that would like to focus on the him/her of the relationship a lady with kids is a drag.


I hear you on this and know exactly where you are coming from. We see eye to eye, except I DO have children. I love them dearly but I don't expect everyone else to.  

It's also why I wouldn't date a guy with young children. It's also why I don't own a dog. I don't want to be tied down in any way now that my own kids are older and I'm able to enjoy a lot of the freedom that was denied to me when they were younger and I had to devote all my time and energy to raising them. 

All valid points but I think where you are rubbing people the wrong way is that you give the impression that there is something WRONG with those who choose to date someone with children. It's a personal choice, not a character flaw or weakness to have children or want to share in raising them. It's just not for everyone. 

Kind of like the car analogy. I love my noisy, squeaky, low-tech, slow Jeep but if you are looking for a Porsche or Cadillac then it's not for you.


----------



## that_girl

I never had babysitting issues because my daughter has a father who was active. So I had 1/2 the week to hang out and if need be, for special things, he and I would switch time around.

Luckily, my husband was young and didn't care that I had a kid.

Lucky for him, I like sex.

:rofl:

I mean, if we're going to keep being ridiculous with this...


----------



## tjohnson

Wow, your posts take several not so subtle shots at single or divorced moms. 

You either must have an ax to grind with single moms or some other issue. You should be proud of yourself.


----------



## sfj

Interesting thread.

I think the OP has some very valid points. I love my husband very much and would never leave him but I can't stand his kids and they have been nothing but a thorn in my side. I have suffered a great deal because of his wacko ex and kids. 

I also have a son. My husband is a great stepfather but the reality is my son's parental bond is with his bio-father. In our case my ex is not a wacko who couldn't move on with life so my husbands step situation has been very smooth compared to mine.

Bottom line though is ALL step situations take work and it is never the "ideal" situation, so of course people aren't going to set out to find that situation. But people fall in love. Sometimes they fall in love with people who have kids. 

What I wonder about is the OP feeling the need to post about his strong opinions concerning kids on a public message board. Since he isn't dating anyone with kids it shouldn't be an issue for him in any way. I'm very curious as to why he would put effort into discussing such a non-issue.

I think he must be somewhat obsessive about his dating life, or rather LACK of dating. If he was dating a woman without kids he wouldn't be on here posting about his refusal to date single mothers. Very odd.

I can see why this guy is divorced. If this is how he approaches dating then he probably approaches other things in the same manner.


----------



## Bobby5000

I married a woman with 2 children and we are now celebrating our 25th anniversary. I found she was a wonderful person, beautiful inside and out, and I found raising our children fulfilling. 

You'll have to decide what you want and what is important.


----------



## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

In some cultures, kids are an asset.
That's because when you're old, so long as you've treated them with love and respect, they won't mind wiping your a** or changing your Depends or making sure you can get out after a huge snowstorm and you can't shovel or drive any more.
IMO, if you can get more kids without having to litter the world with more, why not? 
Kids really belong to the people that raise them, or the people that raise them, belong to them.
I don't get this mentality of thinking.
And the fact of the matter is, that kids grow up.
So why would a person shoot themselves in the foot long-term by not dating someone who happens to have one? In my opinion, this reeks of getting married with an intent to have a woman create your own children, rather than long-term seeking a lifelong companion. 
It's not a be-all end-all, but I would be very leery of dating someone who saw me in the short term and did not think ahead to when my children were grown and helpful because WE had put forth effort into parenting them, biology regardless.


----------



## LovesHerMan

You are certainly welcome to pick and choose whom you date, and I understand the aversion to raising another man's child.

However, you should try to expand your judgmental views of humanity. What if single women did not want to date you because you are divorced, or they assumed that you are a narcissist because you spend so much time in the gym?

Try to look beyond your stereotypes. People are complicated, and you will be much happier if you do not judge them before you even get to know them.


----------



## 2nd_t!me iz_best

Trenton said:


> you might miss out on the love & heartbreak of your life


thats right


----------



## james1002

I agree with Bandit completely. He has a valid point. However his execution of his first post was inconsiderate from a "woman with kids" perspective. I can easily see how it could be offensive. 

But he clearly stated that it was not his intention to hurt or offend anyone. He merely wanted a civil discussion on the issue. Instead he got an angry mob of people trying to degrade him and insult him. 

I don't see how people can get so defensive. It is the INTERNET! If you don't agree then say so, add some evidence, maybe some of your life experiences, and that's it. That is all you have to do to have a discussion as an adult.

@Hope1964-You need to chill out and control your resentment. You sound so bitter.


----------



## Complexity

Bandit, you're way out there man. 

Anyway

I don't mind dating women with children per se, I've always been good with kids and cats for some reason. My reservations however would centre around two things 

1) How the children would react to this new man being with their mum. Kids can get very territorial and it may put a huge strain on the relationship.

2) The Mum almost always has feelings for her ex partner and wishes her children would grow up in a "normal" family. That would make me very disposable.


----------



## that_girl

I think that's why I was a bit different.

I was fine raising my child. Her dad was in her life, so I wasn't looking for a daddy. I could support my child on my own so I wasn't looking for money either.

I had zero feelings for her dad. lol. We are more like brother and sister and have been from the beginning. Our daughter was a surprise. There was no "going back" to my ex. It was very amicable and my ex caused no issues in my relationships. In fact, my dates/bfs never even met my ex. There was no need.


----------



## Bandit

lovesherman said:


> You are certainly welcome to pick and choose whom you date, and I understand the aversion to raising another man's child.
> 
> However, you should try to expand your judgmental views of humanity. What if single women did not want to date you because you are divorced, or they assumed that you are a narcissist because you spend so much time in the gym?
> 
> Try to look beyond your stereotypes. People are complicated, and you will be much happier if you do not judge them before you even get to know them.


Your at best reaching and at worst comparing apples to oranges.. The issue with children is that they inevitably bring about a complete change in the relationship dynamic.. One in which time is rationed, potential past partners (other parent) is still influencing and interacting with your current mate, etc.. unnecessary drama...


----------



## Lon

Bandit said:


> ...The issue with children is that they inevitably bring about a complete change in the relationship dynamic.. One in which time is rationed, potential past partners (other parent) is still influencing and interacting with your current mate, etc.. unnecessary drama...


That is the issue with everything in life. We deal with it. The other thing is children grow up. Older children don't bring about the same kind of issues as toddlers, as we age life changes everyone. Your logic is saying that having a relationship with a single mom means you can never have the perfect relationship, but the truth is there is no such thing as a perfect relationship anyways.

I guess the only thing I hope you will find out about yourself is if you simply aren't ready to deal with children yet, or ever (which are perfectly acceptable preferences, no judgement) or if you are trying to recapture your youth and missed opportunities by finding a younger less experienced mate to go through it all with (fantasizing about the past)


----------



## tiredwife&sahm

Bandit your thoughts have been my greatest fear, it's the only reason I stay with my husband in spite of the crap. I'm sooo screwed.


----------



## Hope1964

Bandit said:


> Your at best reaching and at worst comparing apples to oranges.. The issue with children is that they inevitably bring about a complete change in the relationship dynamic.. One in which time is rationed, potential past partners (other parent) is still influencing and interacting with your current mate, etc.. unnecessary drama...


At least if you date/marry someone with kids, the kids are already in the picture, and will therefore be out of the picture sooner. Unlike marrying someone THEN having kids - when they come along THEN your relationship changes. And it's that many more years before they leave home.

Writing this, I wonder if that was my hubby's master plan all along? My/our kids were 7, 9 and 11 when we got married, and now they're all out of the house and we are thoroughly enjoying ourselves.


----------



## CandieGirl

Bandit said:


> I apologize if this is in the wrong area but the topic came up at work and we were debating it.. I myself would adamantly refuse date a *woman with children *as would "nearly" all the other single and childless men that I talked too. The caveat being that those single men that said they would were what' I would consider to be of lower stock value (less financially secure, uglier etc.) than the ones that said they would not. As for me, again I would not, under no circumstance as I feel that's her cross to bear not mine and I honestly feel that she has lower intrinsic value than a comparable female without kids. I'm not trying to hurt anybodies feelings, just giving an opinion..
> 
> So I'm curious what the forums take on the issue is...


Replace 'woman with children' by 'black woman', 'white woman', 'ethnic woman' or some other prejudiced description and see how fast this post would have been taken down.

Lower stock value? Uglier? How does having a child make a woman ugly? I daresay that most of the unattractive people in the world...I don't even need to see. I can tell who's ugly just by reading their posts.


----------



## CandieGirl

tiredwife&sahm said:


> Bandit your thoughts have been my greatest fear, it's the only reason I stay with my husband in spite of the crap. I'm sooo screwed.


Don't be ridiculous. I think far more people would be accepting of you and your children than you think. Don't listen to this garbage.


----------



## 2nd_t!me iz_best

tiredwife&sahm said:


> Bandit your thoughts have been my greatest fear, it's the only reason I stay with my husband in spite of the crap. I'm sooo screwed.


awww, not all men are like bandit thank god.

if youre a good person you wouldnt be screwed...
unless you want to be  if you got divorced first of course.


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## LovesHerMan

Tiredwife:

Please don't give up on your life and your desire for happiness. You don't want the kind of man who judges and stereotypes people anyway. They are not good husband material.


----------



## chantiq72

I was a single woman and no kid when I married my husband. I always careful when dating someone, and always make sure that he is not a single dad. But, then I met my husband who happens to have share custody of his daughter (now 14 y/o). 

I can understand your opinion. My situation is simillar to your topic but the other way around. It’s really hard to be in a relationship with someone who previously has a kid with other people. It’s not about financial burden that is become my concern. 10% of the problem is his kid, and 90% is his crazy ex. My husband’s ex is a vindictive manipulative woman who can turn her own kid against her own father. She is turning a sweet girl like my step daughter becomes her.

Problem is part of our life. I understand that. If I marry a single guy, doesn’t mean that we will free from problem. But at least our problem is not a stupid problem that was created on purpose. So, married with someone who already has “history” will cause the current relationship have a double problem. We already have a daily problem plus that “created” problem. It is just too much to take. 

And kid is seems a pretty delicate and super sensitive topic this day. We have to tip toe around it if we want to discuss this kind of topic. I still remember my childhood where I have to respect my parent and people who is older than me. I have to make myself suitable to whatever my parent provided for me. I eat what my mum cook, even if I don’t like it. I use to hate it, but as I grow up, I realize that they just trying to educate me, and I turn out ok. I rarely see that happening this day. I see that today’s parent is controlled by their kid including my husband. My husband does it because I think he feel guilty for not being at his daughter life full time. To compensate that, he will try to do everything that his daughter demanded to make her happy. 

I love my husband. That is become a reason for me to stay with him. But I love myself as well, and I want happiness for myself. I will not prevent my husband for doing what he believes is good for his daughter. I will not questioning his method raising his daughter even though I disagree. But I refuse to be part of it. 

Right now, my step daughter is decided to not in contact with her father anymore. Make allegation with lawyer telling her father abusing her which is totally lying. We’re in the middle of legal dispute. That cost money and not to mention tired us mentally. This is what I meant by “stupid created problem” which I think will not exist if I married a man without kid 

Despite any of it, I still love my husband. But if I have to do it all over again, I will probably stick to my principal to not get involve with a man with kid.


----------



## Bobby5000

I found raising 2 step children very fulfilling. I married a nice, loving woman and we are celebrating our 25th anniversary. I have some quirks and strange things, but I am a good father so my wife was able to deal with these. 

I would not tell anyone what to do, other than say you cannot come into a marriage with an agenda. Two self-centered people frequently divorce. You need to be willing to compromise and achieve happiness seeing your spouse happy and doing things for him or her.


----------



## Jackie1

I know this is an old thread, but thought I would comment. 
They are your opinions, I know lots of guys that would date a woman with kids though. If your asking your group of friends and they all say the same thing thats because your friends are more likely to be a lot like you. 
My two children have me crying with laughter alot, i wouldn't call that a cross to bear. There is never a moment to be bored as there is always things to do. It might not be for you, but when you have kids of your own you'll realise what you are missing and you will hopefully grow up and look at children and people in a different light
If you dont want women to cheat on you don't treat them like objects, I've never had a man compare me to a car before. I feel sorry for your next posession!


----------



## costa200

Zombie thread, but what the hell, it's a fun thread. Original OP took a lot of stick for being honest. Got the single moms in here even reporting his thread because he said that single moms were of less value to him. 

But i completely agree with him. Having the possibility of choice of two hypothetical women with very similar traits, i would choose the woman without children every time. I'd rather do that than to be a bad stepfather.

Of course this isn't politically correct for a man to say these days, because society wants guys to take care of children that aren't his, in a way to make up for all the divorcing going on.

Well, that's just not for the OP. Not for me either. And the stuff he said about the "inferior stock" was right. Men with less choices are more inclined to accept whatever comes their way.


----------



## bribrius

i triedd dating someone with kids when i was young. i couldnt do it. i mean my own kids i love and can deal with. But kids in general i actually dont really like them. Nor the headaches and drama that comes with dating someone with kids brings. i could never look at someone elses child as my own. 
kind of like adoping a child, i wouldnt adopt a child. i dont really feel a need to have a child or particuliarly like children in general. I care for kids generally speaking and love them, but not kids in general to randomly decide i want someone elses that is for sure. I love my own, but that is different.


----------



## EleGirl

costa200 said:


> Zombie thread, but what the hell, it's a fun thread. Original OP took a lot of stick for being honest. Got the single moms in here even reporting his thread because he said that single moms were of less value to him.
> 
> But i completely agree with him. Having the possibility of choice of two hypothetical women with very similar traits, i would choose the woman without children every time. I'd rather do that than to be a bad stepfather.
> 
> Of course this isn't politically correct for a man to say these days, because society wants guys to take care of children that aren't his, in a way to make up for all the divorcing going on.
> 
> Well, that's just not for the OP. Not for me either. And the stuff he said about the "inferior stock" was right. Men with less choices are more inclined to accept whatever comes their way.


For a woman without kids, a guy with kids is probably not an attractive catch either.

When I married my second husband, his having children was a plus... I have a son. He had custody of his 2 younger children. I like the idea that my son would bet some siblings.

In hind sight I would not want to step parent again. While it was going on it was a very negative thing for me. Now that all the children are in their 20's ... 13 years after we got married I love them and we have settled our issues. I am the only mother they really have as their mother basically abandoned them.

Things are different based on each person's circumstances.


----------



## Gaia

costa200 said:


> Zombie thread, but what the hell, it's a fun thread. Original OP took a lot of stick for being honest. Got the single moms in here even reporting his thread because he said that single moms were of less value to him.
> 
> But i completely agree with him. Having the possibility of choice of two hypothetical women with very similar traits, i would choose the woman without children every time. I'd rather do that than to be a bad stepfather.
> 
> Of course this isn't politically correct for a man to say these days, because society wants guys to take care of children that aren't his, in a way to make up for all the divorcing going on.
> 
> Well, that's just not for the OP. Not for me either. And the stuff he said about the "inferior stock" was right. Men with less choices are more inclined to accept whatever comes their way.


^^^^^^^^GRAVEDIGGER!!!!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## costa200

> For a woman without kids, a guy with kids is probably not an attractive catch either.


Exactly, for the same exact reasons. It needs some serious mental disposition to take good care of children that are not really related to us biologically. Nobody should do it if they don't feel up to it. 



> ^^^^^^^^GRAVEDIGGER!!!!!!


Wasn't me, it was right there on the first page.


----------



## FirstYearDown

If I was single, I wouldn't bother with a man who had kids. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Never again. I don't want to be a stepmother and I don't like playing second fiddle to children. 

Nothing wrong with the OP not wanting to date women with kids, but the way he worded his opinion was harsh and condemning. Tone and word choice is everything on this forum, because we cannot see or hear each other.


----------



## costa200

Yeah, demeanor doesn't translate well in the written form.


----------



## Honeystly

I look at this from the perspective that I got screwed over and cheated on. I did nothing wrong. Therefore now according to you I am not even worth dating.... that's like getting punished for getting punished... get it?


----------



## costa200

Honeystly said:


> I look at this from the perspective that I got screwed over and cheated on. I did nothing wrong. Therefore now according to you I am not even worth dating.... that's like getting punished for getting punished... get it?


Don't worry, it's not that you aren't worth dating. It's that guys that have choice prefer women without kids and associated baggage (ex husband and all that mess). Lucky for you, your qualities may lead someone to overlook all that. theoretical situation =/= real deal.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Most divorced men also have kids. How weird to devalue women over something they themselves have a good 50% chance of becoming. Weird. 

I feel very sad for any one who looks at men or women as devalued stock. I'm lucky I met someone so lovely and we both had choices on who to date and picked each other (both of us with children).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## costa200

> Most divorced men also have kids. How weird to devalue women over something they themselves have a good 50% chance of becoming. Weird.


You make evaluations on possible partners according to your current situation not the possible future. You don't get together with physically totally repugnant partner because in the future you will not be as attractive as you are now. 

I'm pretty sure every single mother/divorced mother doesn't like what the OP had to say. But be sure that it is a very common feeling. I have it and many of my male buddies have it too. It is not an accident that most divorced mothers end up with divorced fathers. 

Single women also prefer guys without kids. I think that's quite natural, even if it does ruffle a few feathers. 



> I feel very sad for any one who looks at men or women as devalued stock.


Give me a break... We ALL do that. Your don't partner up randomly. You choose your partner according to a number of traits he/she exhibits. You may not use those words but they are quite honest and describe the situation quite well.


----------



## costa200

> They are speaking for ALL men,


I saw no one making the claim of speaking for all men. The OP clearly wrote about his own feelings. So who claimed to speak for all men?

In fact, the OP clearly stated that some of his friends did not share his opinions.


----------



## costa200

Yes, his choice of words wasn't exactly tactful, i'll give you that.


----------



## YellowRoses

I'm British and I cringe at a lot of the posts on here and I'm sure some do the same at mine. I think there is a culture difference despite a common language, generally speaking. Also a lot of posters on TAM seem to me to have supersize egos and lots of time to contemplate their own navels. I find that a bit strange too

So I'm glad others find the OP completely up himself 

FWIW, I doubt many single mothers would give him the time of day. Once you have children, you have much less time and patience for stroking giant egos. 

So I don't think the OP need worry too much - lots of people will reject him too

PS I'm a mum but have no issue whatsoever with people avoiding involvement with other people's children just not for the notion of relative rank


----------



## FirstYearDown

YellowRoses said:


> *I'm British and I cringe at a lot of the posts on here and I'm sure some do the same at mine. I think there is a culture difference despite a common language, generally speaking*. Also a lot of posters on TAM seem to me to have supersize egos and lots of time to contemplate their own navels. I find that a bit strange too
> 
> So I'm glad others find the OP completely up himself
> 
> FWIW, I doubt many single mothers would give him the time of day. Once you have children, you have much less time and patience for stroking giant egos.
> 
> So I don't think the OP need worry too much - lots of people will reject him too
> 
> PS I'm a mum but have no issue whatsoever with people avoiding involvement with other people's children just not for the notion of relative rank


:iagree::iagree: I am Canadian. We have a worldwide reputation for being polite and friendly. When I read some of the posts on this forum, I am reminded of the American stereotype that people from U.S are brash and rude for no good reason. 

There are ways to give advice or state an opinion without being insulting or making personal attacks. It is not what you say, but how you say it. 

I mentioned that I would not date a man with kids if I was single. However, I did not put down single dads a group. I simply related my personal experience.


----------



## DTO

Being a guy, I was turned down by several women - some of whom were quite interested otherwise - for being an involved father. The rationale essentially was they liked me but did not want to compete with my child for time and attention.

And, truth be told, parents with at leat 50% custody simply don't have much time to date. Between managing my career (full time MBA, looking for work) and being a single parent half the time, I am super busy. In fact, I generally caught up on housework and schoolwork when my child was with mom.

I don't have any problem casually dating a woman with kids. I think it's very difficult to maintain a serious relationship in that way because of logistical issues. And, I would not want to date a woman who was ignoring her own kids.

Lots of folks with no kids or kids that are grown (or nearly so) choose to avoid the drama and start with someone with the ability to be physically and emotionally present on a consistent basis. I can't fault them for that.


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## lovingmy5

There's no debating on what you stated...you need a reality check thats all, lol all things we speak out our mouth we speak into exsistence do remember when you run into that woman you would roll over and die for you come to find she has children only after a couple of dates, due to being so into her you failed to ask...i garuantee you'll eat the words stated, ohh and when you do remember every knee shall bow and every tongue must confess...
Be blessed


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