# What I will Teach my Daughter about SEX...in relation to LOVE, her emotions, her life



## SimplyAmorous

My daughter is very very very precious to me. After seeing 4 little penis's in a row when giving birth, I can not even express.. finally.... hearing ...







!! :yay::yay:


I count WHO my daughter marries oneday to be the single most important decision she will ever make in her entire life.....and how she handles her sexuality before she meets this man can not be under-estimated -in my opionion. It has the power & potential to destroy her dreams, or allow them to take flight to full fruition, with no regrets. 











*1. *1st, SEX will never be a dirty word in our household. I want my daughter to see playful displays of affection between me & her father, we do not hide kisses, hugs, even a little flirting, I want her to see a healthy happiness there. I also instill within her, even now - she can come to me with anything & everything, nothing will shock me, I understand human nature well, nor will I shame her for any subject. We are very open communicators in our family - It is a good foundation to be laid. 

But 1st -what do I mean by SEX....I agree with this definition...."Having sex" means any consensual behavior between two individuals involving genital contact & bodily penetration. That means oral sex, anal sex, and vaginal sex are all "*sex' *" .... can read more here ..... The Definition of 'Sex'

*2. *I will teach my daughter .....Sex is beautiful thing ...but it has it's place, there is a time & a season for such beauty... it is meant to be shared between 2 people who LOVE each other. There is no greater pleasure God has given us on this earth, no emotional BONDING that has more meaning -as the giving & receiving in this way, that this act has the awesome potential to Create NEW LIFE..... that it should never be used casually, or carelessly, because of this very fact, It carries the greatest of responsibilities with it. It is the awesomest of the AWESOME. I will refer to it as "sacred" even. 


*3. *I will teach my daughter not everyone looks at Sex as this Special. What she sees in the media, magazines, tv, music, hears in school, even sees friends experience - too often results in broken relationships where sex was ingaged in TOO QUICKLY, the "bad boys" being praised for their conquests, Girls giving themselves to these gamers in hopes "for love", women dressing to entice the hot guys -and for what ? Hearts ripped in 2, tears, loss of self esteem sometimes, pregnancy faced alone, Grandparents raising grandchildren, children growing up without fathers, a night of physical passion without connection? Rubbers can be worn but the brokenness that follows SCARS our entire society. 

I will ask her how she feels about these things. I will ask her what SHE wants for her own life. I will tell her she has POWER, she has CHOICES....and to never be led by "the crowd". She is her own woman.

Also she MUST take responsibility for those choices. Personal Responsibility is HUGE in our family -I will not allow my TEENS to see themselves as "victims" - if they had a voice & a choice in the matter. 

Sure we all make mistakes, we forge ahead living in the moment, none of us are perfect, but to KNOW the "games" others play, know the "RISKS" of each action before indulging & OWN your own "hand" in it- this is a must. 


*4. *I will explain to my daughter, she WILL Have sexual urges, this is natural .... and to understand BOYS have those same urges -but raging 10 times MORE than she is feeling them- if that can even be imagined ! They are near blinded with LUST ...and this overflows out of thier mouths with flirtatious fury around the girls. To not be fooled, this has nothing ever to do with LOVE..... she needs to understand this completely, their minds have been near hi-jacked by Overloads of Testosterone. Some are scrambling to understand it themselves, their IS an immaturity there. Boys will also be compelled to look upon porn & oogle women, I don't care how "good" or "moral" they are, they *will *WANT to do this. My daughter will have a FINE education on the male sex drive. 

A few comments from men themselves on the http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/34971-male-sex-drive.html thread about their youth, I appreciate their honesty! ....


> I would have done/said anything that would get me intyo bed with them, getting them to flash me, etc etc....





> Puberty, hormones raging. I dont think I once thought about love during that time. Purely a want to put it in something. As I grow older the drive has remained as powerful as ever, but its fueled by more than just hormones.



*5. *I will explain to my daughter ...if a Boy truly has HER interests at heart (some are struggling with LUST & pangs of LOVE, their very own hearts).... if influenced by Genuine feelings of care & interest in MORE than some booty.... these boys will stick around, they will continue to woo her, "wait" for *HER*- every part of her, they will listen to her, they will take "the time" - (of course they will be fantasizing like mad in addition) but still they will try to BE that gentleman for their "lady".....take her out , make plans to enjoy things together, talks walks & talk, call her just to hear her voice, learn of her as a person, ask what she enjoys & make that happen. 

These boys may itch to get in her pants, but she should never JUMP... if she is interested in them, TEST them with the ruler of TIME, allow them to openly reveal their "heart" in regards to her. This is wisdom. 










I am of the belief.... Although ALL men LOVE & crave sex, they will "wait" & pursue the one girl that captures their heart & soul. Once they are "caught", they are ensnared. Love is the most amazing thing on this earth. The greatest love songs ever penned were written by MEN in love. 



*6. *When she starts dating herself -being alone with a boy turning into a man, I will likely share how me & her father handled ourselves before we married. Where our boundaries were....was MORE than the Church would consider "moral" but it was LESS than what the majority, even within the church pew did themselves! So let the judgers judge. But for us... it kept us from burning with LUST, an "emotional connection" grew & we still had something "NEW" to bring to our Wedding night, what we deemed the most sacred to give to each other . 

My daughter will have to decide for herself what her "*personal boundaries*" will be in this area.

Some women can enjoy Sex without an emotional connection... I personally can not understand this at all, I am greedy!! I would want BOTH, LUST is passionate & all Consuming -YES ! ....but I would want MORE from that man, I would tie myself to him, want to posses him , It would utterly DEVESTATE me if he did not feel the same as I, was cold the next day or ....gone. 

I will talk openly to my daughter about this side of sex also, and ask how she would feel about such things. Explaining MANY men can separate this, one night stands are common. But I will always believe, overwhelmingly more women get HURT by these, loosing a part of themselves along the way. 


*7. *I will speak openly about STD's/ veneral diseases with my daughter.....she MUST not be ignorant of the physical ramifications that can come upon her body, some for life. Many do not even know they have it -when it is transmitted. Untreated, some can lead to pelvic inflammatory disease- which causes Infertility- which can risk her future chances of being a mother. STD's That Cause Infertility 

A list here:
Sexually Transmitted Diseases: Rhode Island Department of Health

*8. **I will teach my daughter there is a heavy EMOTIONAL side to sex*.... Sex releases certain chemicals in our brains that change the way we think ...the hormones released work to bond us to our partner, it's like gluing two pieces of paper together. If you tried to tear those pages apart, the break wouldn't be a clean one. The same kind of thing happens when there's a breakup in a sexual relationship. These break ups can be as painful as mini-divorces. If this happens over & over & over, it has a way of de-personalizing our emotions. 

Also, these sexual memories of our 1st, 2nd, 3rd boyfriends may linger in our psyche, show up in the bedroom later with our very husbands, comparisons creep in. We may wish he was as BIG as #1, or his oral skills was as arousing as #2. It is just something to consider. Of coarse men can do this also, comparing old girlfriends to thier wives. Then we have the whole Facebook debacle with old lovers befriending each other & the nightmare that brings. 


*9. *Although many men will not care how many partners a girl had in her youth -they may even be ecstatic she is experienced & could show him a thing or 2! There are SOME men out there who will care, it has Great meaning to them -and it is not as much about "insecurities"...as much as it is about "the sacredness" they attach to "love making" -they feel this is the Greatest gift one can give their future bride/husbands, worthy of the waiting- hard as it may be to contain. My oldest son feels this way-strongly , I will not belittle that ..but being such a pure Virgin, I feel has it's RISKS also ...which brings me to ...


*10*. Sexual Repression is far too common - 1 hinderance I do not wish upon any of my children, although I want them to wait -make sure they are loved & cherished BEFORE they "give" their full selves to another. 

I will teach my daughter ... If she is going to be in a relationship with a man, she needs to understand him, and have compassion on what HE is going through physically, if he is willing to wait for her - IF that is even her desire. And a man NEEDS to know, without a shadow of a doubt, that even though she may not be READY to engage in genital to genital contact with him, that she craves physical intimacy with him, , that she is deeply sexually attracted to him. I would hope their openness would blossom to Orgasm talk & how they feel about them, as I feel a man should KNOW these things about any woman he marries. This gives him some indication of her sex drive, as this could vary greatly from woman to woman. 

This will be very unpopular advice for strict religious believers, but I feel it is terribly RISKY for a high drive man to marry a pure untouched virgin, he really has NO IDEA if she will even ENJOY sex - which "could" put him in a near prison once married, if she finds out she doesn't care for it after the vows. LOVE is NOT ENOUGH to keep that flame alive, Healthy sex is vital to all marriages. I've read too many personal stories, very heart breaking. 

I knew of one couple who didn't even KISS until their wedding day. Do I think they are crazy...yeah pretty much... but I guess it worked out for THEM, he was not resentful, they waited, they have no regrets..to each our own in our ...personal boundaries. So long as both is on the same page, you may have found your "match" made in Heaven. 

I don't feel she needs to be so pure as to either of them burning with lust, while near crying to touch each other. I think we need to ENJOY each others body to some degree, even give each other pleasure. I think the problem most would have is..they wouldn't be able to stop- once they got going. I guess me & my husband are not the norm, we never went over our boundaries in this regard- though I sure remember wanting too! . 




> "A REAL man, the kind of man a woman wants to give her life to, is one who will respect her dignity, who will honor her like the valuable treasure she is. A REAL man will not attempt to rip her precious pearl from it's protective shell, or persuade her with charm to give away her treasure prematurely, but he will wait patiently until she willingly gives him the prize of her heart. A REAL man will cherish and care for that prize forever.”
> 
> Leslie Ludy


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## that_girl

That's how I teach sex to my daughter. It's not just one talk, it's an ongoing conversation.

I am prepared for many things with my child. Maybe she won't marry. Maybe she won't want kids. Maybe she's a lesbian. Who knows? I don't care. She'll still be having sex and so we converse regularly about different things. Sometimes she initiates the conversation, sometimes I do. I'm always honest though...my mom was never honest with me. I still don't know how old she was when she first had sex.


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## SimplyAmorous

that_girl said:


> That's how I teach sex to my daughter. It's not just one talk, it's an ongoing conversation.
> 
> I am prepared for many things with my child. Maybe she won't marry. Maybe she won't want kids. Maybe she's a lesbian. Who knows? I don't care. She'll still be having sex and so we converse regularly about different things. Sometimes she initiates the conversation, sometimes I do. I'm always honest though...my mom was never honest with me. I still don't know how old she was when she first had sex.


Thank you for your thoughts. I LOVE talking to my kids, I seem to enjoy the TEEN years even more though, my daughter is not even 10 yet, so all of these FUN and more indepth discussions will not be happening any time soon, boys to her are "eeewwwwwww" right now. A little neighbor boy is in love with her & in the car one day the brothers were razzing her about it, I threw in a little joke & she whirled something at my head & got REALLY mad, so boys are scum right now, her brothers included. 

But I assume someday, this will all take a sudden turn towards "awe" for the male species. But you are right, we never know, my only daughter could go the way of a Chastity Bono . What can you do, but love 'em anyway. 

I was always very open with my Mother -she was always so EASY to talk too. I always asked her ALOT of questions, even in my teens. I am still learning now in the last few years -things about her private life. She never hesitated to share any of the things she did, even things that caused her MUCH heartache. I am thankful for the whole sorted story. It helped me make better decisions for my own life.


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## Enchantment

SA~

What a great post! 

I've only got sons, but I hope that they can find girls who have been so openly taught this. We are trying to teach our sons to be respectful and to have some measure of self-discipline. So far, so good. 

We don't spend nearly enough time trying to teach kids about how to actually live in a relationship like marriage. Instead we try and contain them prior to marriage and then just seem to expect them to somehow 'get it' afterwards on their own. Take that and mix it in with the 'me, me, me' aspect of our culture and you get a volatile mixture that leads to heartache for so many.

I guess it starts by each one of us as parents, not just talking about it, but LIVING it.


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## omega

I was going to mention what *that_girl* already did: I'm not a parent but if I were, I'd be sure to include the message that it may not be a man with whom she falls in love, she could fall in love with a woman / or my son could fall in love with a man. It seems to be a rather glaring omission in an otherwise great list!


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## Mindful Coach

That's wonderful SimplyAmorous! If more parents would teach their children healthy sex education, we wouldn't have as many hang ups about it as we do today. My own children are in their 20s and I'm thrilled with how responsible and level headed they are about all of that. It's amazing though how much you teach your children, they still get so many mixed messages. It truly is an ongoing open conversation that you will have more many years. From the sounds of it, you are going to do an excellent job!


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## that_girl

The thing is, many people just think of their children as "their children" forever. I do not. I think of them as little humans in which I'm supposed to raise into women. Their OWN women. Yes, they are my children, but they are simply women in training.


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## Advocado

Thanks for posting this SA - great food for thought

I would welcome ideas on how to alert a daughter to infidelity since it is all too rife. In particular men who will select a girl and sex wise, wait for her for a long time, treating her right - but all that time, unbeknown to the girl, he is sleeping with other women. I,m saying she is the one he wants and loves, and he IS willing to wait to have sex with her , marry her and everything. How do we strike a balance between our children being too naive or too trusting and being overly suspicious and paranoid?


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## LovesHerMan

Great thread! This is exactly the advice that I gave my daughter, but she did not believe me about the male sex drive. Now that she is 29, she understands, but as a teenager, she could not comprehend what I was talking about.

She also said she felt pressured by our hyper-sexualized society to dress provocatively to attract a man. It is hard to counteract the messages that the advertising industry projects as what is normal and desirable in relationships. I love the idea that sex is sacred, and that the emotional bonding aspect is very powerful, not to be taken lightly.


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## RDJ

Amorous,
From a man’s view, that was beautiful.

I don’t however believe that you should stop with your daughter; I believe you should express a good share of this with your boys as well. 

Then when you’re done with that, you should express the same to a good share of dysfunctional marriages right here on TAM.

If more people in marriage (men) understood the basic dynamics of sex and love, their marriage may not get so far out of whack.


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## SimplyAmorous

RDJ said:


> I don’t however believe that you should stop with your daughter; I believe you should express a good share of this with your boys as well.


Oh RDJ, come on now....do you really think I am not talking to my Boys?!! Those are my teenagers that I have so much FUN with!! Oh yeah, we have had some interesting conversations! Many times in the car, late at night over tea, caught in a hallway, around a bonfire, could be anywhere -they just come -unexpected. 

The openness I have with my oldest is very precious to me. He is talking Psyche at College, his heart is for the YOUTH, he will say -so many from broken homes-kids hurting , but he sees So much potential there, it excites him & he wants to catch them NOW -BEFORE they mess up their lives. 

My next son (9th gr) is getting more like him every day, we were riding bikes this summer side by side, he says to me.... "Ya know, you aren't so bad to talk too".... he was sharing about different girls, their texts to him, things they have talked about, raging puberty, his honesty to them, how they react. ( This was a funny conversation as these girls were all telling him he is NICER than the other boys, all those boys are bad, think dirty things, and him being Mr Honesty had to inform them he is not all that much better ! ... I just :rofl: -that he has his struggles too , one of the girls got mad at him, she was a little disappointed, his allowed his halo to be lowered before her, but she did get over it & kept talking to him)- I guess that was his way of giving that girl a little education, that yeah, BOYS will still be boys -in their minds anyway! 

The dymanics of teens, always entertaining. He is very forthcoming about his "silver purity ring", what it means to him, it split & he wants a new one with special words on it , a christmas present I need to shop for. He tells me the crazy things that happen in school, how kids talk, the teachers he loves, what they say, things that bother him, he even asks me questions. I don't think this is the norm between teenage sons & their mothers .... It made me feel VERY GOOD that he said that to me -that sweet summer day on that bike trail.  

Boys are best to get talking when you are "doing" something with them, engaged in an activity/sport. The son after him is more too himself, more introverted, but he knows he can come to me & his dad with anything also, he gets the benefits of hearing many of our open conversations with our oldest, we both enjoy the debate, they have sat around -being near amused by it all. Interjecting their thoughts in support of big brother or Mom. 

I heartily enjoy giving them food for thought- all sides of an issue, even their dad jumps in- usually with some perfectly timed crack that has them near falling on the floor -but ultimately they make thier own descions. So far so good.

Dad is also good for letting them know ......if you choose this...... THIS MAY COME UPON YOU..... then he will go on to explan in ever colorful thought provoking detail of your slow but sure demise in misery... may end up living under a bridge somewhere eating out of the garbage, to the utter destruction of your body possibly being scraped off the pavement, or if you skull is still intact, a worm may crawl out of it. He gets a little carried away but it can be amusing, he gets his point across. 

We seriously have a great time. I am accually not all that involved with my kids, it is not a Doting type of thing at all, or in all thier business... more of a "we just enjoy talking to each other at random times, we may all crash in the same area and just find ourselves in some HEAVY discussion- challenging each other ", then we get up & go about our day. Love those times, other than that, we near ignore each other, they do their thing, we do ours. They are so busy with their friends and activities. 

I know when they leave the nest, I have no control over their lives, I am so very aware, now is the time to influence, shape, mold and US -be that example. 

I often think I don't spend enough time with them- hence my recent "Cats in the Cradle" thread. Time goes much too fast. 

But the knowing, they still enjoy talking to me, openly sharing parts of their life with me ... my sons........yeah ...priceless.


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## RDJ

That awesome SA,

My wife and i were raised in the exact opposite (like many my age),

We worked hard at sharing, being open, honest, and always allowing our kid's to come to us without fears.

I was well worth the effort, my kids, now in thier 30's with family of thier own, have great attitudes. They are open to thier own children and even though they went through a phase where they lost a little of the closeness with us, it did not last long, they are both a huge part of our lives. The family is very close, we do a lot of things togather. Bi-weekly get togathers, weekends in vegas, and bi-yearly vacations. It's awesome, I would be bummed if it were any other way.


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## SimplyAmorous

lovesherman said:


> I love the idea that sex is sacred, and that the emotional bonding aspect is very powerful, not to be taken lightly.


I just started this book I had on my shelf for almost a year now called "*Sacred Pleasure*"........ Amazon.com: Sacred Pleasure: Sex, Myth, and the Politics of the Body--New Paths to Power and Love (9780062502834): Riane Eisler: Books 

- it is accually very deep & hard to follow, SO MUCH detail, but it was talking about the ancient civilizations, how they treated Sex as "SACRED". It is someting we have gotten so far away from- for a # of reasons. 

It said this in the book >>>> One of the most beautiful examples of this artistic tradition depicting "sex as sacred" comes to us from Mesopotamia. It is a terra cotta plaque sometimes identified as "Lovers Embracing on Bed," probably the Goddess Inanna and the God Dumuzi about to consummate their sacred union. It was fashioned about 4000 years ago.



The notion that civilization is inspired by the love between a Goddess and a human male is common to many ancient cultures. The Erotic theme is lavishly developed in the Sumerian love poetry that celebrates the theogamy (divine-human mating) of the Goddess Inanna and the shepherd Dumuzi. According to Thompson, civilization begins by making love, not war. (Lovers embracing, clay plaque, Mesopotamia, 2000 BCE)



I like this ...:smthumbup:....Love Without Limits - Articles - Why is Sex Sacred? - by Dr. Deborah Anapol



> In the pre-Christian view, sex is sacred simply because it’s part of life. In the Christian view sex must be shown to be deserving of reverence. No problem! Here’s why it’s worthy!
> 
> *1*.First, Sacred Sexuality, implies an awareness that sex is the inception of life, of all that is. Without the sexual act, none of us would exist — at least not as incarnate bodies. Sacred Sexuality acknowledges that our life force and our sexual energy originate from the same source. It’s an expression of awe and wonder that transcends any particular culture.
> 
> *2.* Sex is sacred because of its role in bonding. Mutually satisfying sexual exchanges naturally intensify bonding, but sex can take place without bonding if we’re careful to keep our hearts closed. Sex opens the heart only if we bring the energy up. The Tantric attitudes of slowing down, awakening all of the senses, tuning in to subtle energy, letting go of judgment and blame, expressing gratitude for the gift of life, and savoring the present moment are wonderfully supportive tools for intimate relating.
> 
> To bond with someone is to form an enduring connection -- to feel a strong sense of mutual caring, intimacy, and appreciation. Bonding satisfies our need to belong and can occur in the absence of sex whenever a powerful shared experience creates a feeling of kinship. Not only is bonding critical to survival for many species, it supports health and happiness. People live longer and have fewer problems when they have a family-social-community context. Sex helps bring people together and keep them together. What else could motivate us to overcome the difficulties we encounter in intimate relating? Love making is more fun and more readily available than natural disasters, war, and other life threatening situations.
> 
> Erotic energy works its magic far beyond the plant and animal level as well. Look at gravity! Gravity is the name we give to the force of mutual attraction that holds the cosmos together, but spiritual teachers throughout the ages have pointed out that magnetic pull is just another name for erotic love.
> 
> 
> *3*. Sex is sacred because of its role in accessing peak experiences of love, oneness, and healing. Humans have an innate need for peak experiences of bliss, merging, and ecstasy. We have a deep longing for the (re) union of sex and spirit, for union with the Divine. When we access expanded states of consciousness through sex we validate our intuitive sense that sex can be worship and that worship can be erotic. Tantra and other paths of Erotic Spirituality teach us to embrace and honor the body as a temple of Spirit, rather than trying to deny our natural sexual impulses.
> 
> So when we bless, purify, or honor the body as part of a sexual encounter, when we bond more deeply as a result of lovemaking, or when sexual union catapults us into higher consciousness, we make sex sacred.


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## Trickster

Love your thread SA...
I printed your post. I want my wife to read this. We have a little one. After all, I did wait for her until she was ready.


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## SimplyAmorous

Already Gone said:


> Love your thread SA...
> I printed your post. I want my wife to read this. We have a little one. After all, I did wait for her until she was ready.


You are a RARE Gem of a man, as is my dear husband. 

I took the time to read some of your posts, I can see you are "in that prison" I mentioned in #10 ... and have been for a long long time - a wife you "waited" for...who was NEVER into sex. 

These stories have brought tears to my eyes. I've read too many. I feel bad for many men. YOU deserve so much more. 

We all worry ......who is our daughter going to marry, will HE be "good enough" -get the shot gun out, check him up & down .......

I often find myself thinking.....who will my honorable son marry..... "WILL SHE LOVE SEX ENOUGH?" ....What he views as Virtuous could be the near death of him - if she is Repressed and very low drive..... with that combination, you might as well put a stake through your heart -as a husband.


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## RandomDude

> the "bad boys" being praised for their conquests, Girls giving themselves to these gamers in hopes "for love", women dressing to entice the hot guys -and for what ? Hearts ripped in 2, tears, loss of self esteem sometimes, pregnancy faced alone, Grandparents raising grandchildren, children growing up without fathers, a night of physical passion without connection? Rubbers can be worn but the brokenness that follows SCARS our entire society.


Well, you can also teach her how to tame and collar a player/bad boy, like what wifey did - to my grudging annoyance sometimes. You are correct however in your points, looks like your daughter is in good hands 

I really despise the modern media really, women are not taught correctly, no strength, no game, no backbone, follow the crowd, believing that love comes through sex. It's up to us to guide our daughters through all the BS.


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## SimplyAmorous

Advocado said:


> I would welcome ideas on how to alert a daughter to infidelity since it is all too rife. In particular men who will select a girl and sex wise, wait for her for a long time, treating her right - but all that time, unbeknown to the girl, he is sleeping with other women.  I,m saying she is the one he wants and loves, and he IS willing to wait to have sex with her , marry her and everything. How do we strike a balance between our children being too naive or too trusting and being overly suspicious and paranoid?


That is an interesting question, and I am sure this happens too! If a man was doing this, if he has any Conscience at all, I would think the GUILT would start eating at him after a time. In my opionion, if he didn't have that conscience, the truth may manifest in other ways- such as ....HE would be lacking in his "*vulnerability*" with his girlfriend, there would be some blockage to his personality, something would be amiss, a privacy she could not penetrate. 

What makes our children too trusting of others? The first thing that comes to mind is .... *sheilding them*, trying to protect their innocence TOO MUCH -from what lurks outside our safe protective doors. It doesn't mean they have to EXPERIENCE the trauma ......but BE educated, aware that not everything IS as it appears, not everyone IS as they appear either, the big bad wolf sometimes comes in sheeps clothing... as a Gentleman, harboring a well hidden dark side. 

I am not the type of parent to SHEILD my kids from very much -to spare them, because I DO NOT want them to be too trusting, or ignorant of human nature, even in it's darkest forms. I want them to be fully aware of the *temptations *we ALL face, to know these things can befall others, even ourselves , to LEARN / discern what to look for in other people, in their friends, in their potential lovers.... 

They have the security to learn all of this from within our very homes, I would think it even a great dis-service to not talk openly about such things.....and of coarse that FEROCIOUS male sex drive, heavens, we can't leave that out! 

If a girl is withholding herself, if she is smart & intuned to his sexual LOVE and LUST, she is going to be talking to him about how he is handling this part of himself while "waiting" for her, read some of his body language, does it add up? But then again, he might mention porn, she'll throw her hands up, call him a pervert, break off the engagement. Yeah, a double edged sword there. Communication breakdown 101. 

I would have my daughter look very carefully to a # of things ...... his reputation , what do others say about him?? his history with girls, what is he into, what fullfills his time, his work ethic, the type of friends he hangs with, *this ALL speaks to his "character*". It simply has too. 

Appearing to be the Perfect --but wayward boyfriend with a double life.... surely something gives in such a relationship, some clues. I know with me & my bf, when dating we was seriously together so terribly much, he would not have even had time for another. But that is not always the case of coarse..... I still think it comes down to that intimacy, a free flowing openness, with nothing held back- emotionally, that vulnerability 2 people in love share, feeling their whole heart. 

If a man is TRULY waiting for a woman he loves, if he can't show that, something is wrong -because a man with such a character as that -should be able, he is a DEEP loving man. He is not shallow, nor cold. My personal opinion on this anyway!

I think so long as a young girl / woman is rational with no mental issues going on, she won't be overly suspicious & paranoid --unless she has already been hurt & lied too by another man she was deeply in love with who scarred her heart & she is struggling to wipe that slate clean with the new man before her.


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## Trickster

My wife wasn't saving herself for marriage. I kinda thought that she was. She just has no real interest and has no desire to improve her skills.


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## Trickster

Advocado said:


> Thanks for posting this SA - great food for thought
> 
> I would welcome ideas on how to alert a daughter to infidelity since it is all too rife. In particular men who will select a girl and sex wise, wait for her for a long time, treating her right - but all that time, unbeknown to the girl, he is sleeping with other women. I,m saying she is the one he wants and loves, and he IS willing to wait to have sex with her , marry her and everything. How do we strike a balance between our children being too naive or too trusting and being overly suspicious and paranoid?


When my wife and I were just dating and not even living together, a neighbor lady almost raped me, for a lack of a better term. I went there to fix her plumbing. It wasn't her sink that was clogged. She was beautiful and about ten years older than me. She would have taught me a lot . I was 25 then. I left her place without having sex.


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## Advocado

Thanks for your thoughtful response SA. I think what you say about too much shielding is right on the button, also what you have said about character and communication is key.

I do try to talk to my D about sex and relationships but she gets super embarrased and NEVER participates in the "discussion" which feels very awkward and then I get embarrassed because I'm making her embarrassed! I know i should press on regardless as she will be taking stuff in even if she doesen't respond but I do find this difficult. Also I am realising that things need to be said more than once, but again it's tricky to revisit past topics when she is so reluctant to participate in the "discussion". i have to avoid a tendency to think right, I've told her about X so that's done. 

My own mother didn't really talk to me about sex apart from saying to make sure I didn't end up pregnant - fullstop (both my older sisters had unplanned pregnancies in their teens!). Thankfully I didn't but unfortunately I have had issues with men presenting one way whilst keeping their real self totally hidden. I have been too trusting yet I thought I was savvy which is why I don't feel confident in getting the balance (too naive v. too suspicious) right with her.


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## FirstYearDown

My parents were so overprotective, that I was TWENTY YEARS OLD before I learned to take the subway alone. 

Shielding too much causes naivete and rebellion. I would not have been with a controlling older man for two years, if I was allowed to learn and explore relationships. He was able to manipulate me, because I did not know any better.

I moved out at 21, because I needed to learn to use my own mind, instead of my parents hovering over me like I was still 13. 

My mother only spoke about sex as something to be avoided and dangerous. She instilled distrust of men.


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## SimplyAmorous

Advocado said:


> I do try to talk to my D about sex and relationships but she gets super embarrased and NEVER participates in the "discussion" which feels very awkward and then I get embarrassed because I'm making her embarrassed! I know i should press on regardless as she will be taking stuff in even if she doesen't respond but I do find this difficult. Also I am realising that things need to be said more than once, but again it's tricky to revisit past topics when she is so reluctant to participate in the "discussion". i have to avoid a tendency to think right, I've told her about X so that's done.
> 
> My own mother didn't really talk to me about sex apart from saying to make sure I didn't end up pregnant - fullstop (both my older sisters had unplanned pregnancies in their teens!). Thankfully I didn't but unfortunately I have had issues with men presenting one way whilst keeping their real self totally hidden. I have been too trusting yet I thought I was savvy which is why I don't feel confident in getting the balance (too naive v. too suspicious) right with her.


 What you describe is likely very common, not all teens want to talk to thier moms, it can be embarrassing -but I bet they are talking to their friends , so they can do it ! 

This is very unfortunate, I guess this comes back to that .. ..."ongoing " conversation thing & being approachable at a very young age, plus I think even the temperment of the child may play a role, some kids are just MORE PRIVATE, it will be like pulling teeth, a boundary they will never be comfortable with. 

When I hear some ask...when it is time for the "Birds & the Bees" talk, that in itself sounds "awkward" to me, to dump all that on in one sitting & feel the "deed" has been done, you are trying to avoid that , this is good. My little girl is 8, I am forever asking her questions, she smiles & giggles saying "I don't know" many times ....and in my own goofy way, I won't accept that -kinda making fun & she starts laughing, but I am coaxing her to SPEAK HER MIND with me, I want her to do that -and boldly -if she does it with me, she is going to do it outside of our family too. It is a part of being "assertive", which I want her to be. She is not going to get away from my asking her things. She seems to enjoy my being interested in her & what she has to say..... I hope that will remain as she grows into her teens, I guess time will tell, this is MY way of grooming now. 


I would ask Advocado ....have you ever sat down and opened up about *your own past *with the boys...even the more unpleasant things, the boys hiding who they were -that you mention here.... sharing your own experiences with your daughter could be a way of getting her to feel the freedom to share herself , maybe even ask YOU a question she may be curious about, a little relating there possibly.... As it is opening youself up 1st , still could be a bit embarrassing.....but just NOTICE some of the replies on here where women are saying thier Mom's didn't tell them anything about themselves ...and it seems they wish they had !

I think many parents want to exclude the hurt of thier own Teen years , or how they messed up, or missed it , trying to spare their children from these details of thier own learning, not wanting them to look down on us. Yeah, it humbles us to some degree, but still , the lesson could be the most valuable of all. I guess I am one who feels the openness, even the things we got wrong -can be even more helpful than burying them. I am one who learned MORE from the mistakes of my Mother in how she delt with men than anything she ever taught me through words. It was her experiences -that accually "spoke" to me, to not go down a similar path.


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## LimboGirl

SimplyAmorous said:


> Thank you for your thoughts. I LOVE talking to my kids, I seem to enjoy the TEEN years even more though, my daughter is not even 10 yet, so all of these FUN and more indepth discussions will not be happening any time soon, boys to her are "eeewwwwwww" right now. A little neighbor boy is in love with her & in the car one day the brothers were razzing her about it, I threw in a little joke & she whirled something at my head & got REALLY mad, so boys are scum right now, her brothers included.
> 
> But I assume someday, this will all take a sudden turn towards "awe" for the male species. But you are right, we never know, my only daughter could go the way of a Chastity Bono . What can you do, but love 'em anyway.
> 
> I was always very open with my Mother -she was always so EASY to talk too. I always asked her ALOT of questions, even in my teens. I am still learning now in the last few years -things about her private life. She never hesitated to share any of the things she did, even things that caused her MUCH heartache. I am thankful for the whole sorted story. It helped me make better decisions for my own life.


I love your post.

My daughter is 17, so I have already had to cover a lot of topics. We have talked about the consequences of sex: babies and STD's. We have talked about how teenage boys more then likely are just after sex. My daughter at this point is waiting to have sex. This is her decision. She is very adamant about it. She won't even have the Guardisel shot yet. She says she doesn't need it because she is not having sex.

I have talked to her about how sex brings a women closer to a man. How it is enjoyable and an expression of love.

What I would like to emphasize more to her since I have been on TAM is the beautiful side of sex. She is not very open to these discussions, so I will have to time it just right. 

I would like to tell her that sex is a special kind of honesty and as such it deserves respect and honesty in all its occurrences. We should never pretend someone means something to us in order to get sex. We need to be honest about our past experiences with our husband. If you wouldn't want to tell your husband your number, than don't create that number.

I would like to explain to her what I have learned about the male sex drive. It is what it is. As women we may not know how intense it is, but that is OK. We can still meet our husband's or lover's needs while demanding respect for ourselves as a person.

After reading the threads from posters who have spouses that have suffered past sexual abuse, I would like to bring that up as a topic. It seems common that parents don't always know about these instances. We have had talks about these situations, but I never realized how much pain they can cause a spouse who doesn't know about them. I think this would be good information for anyone.

This is a topic I will continue to think about. I have enjoyed reading the threads and am glad you started it.


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## LimboGirl

SA,

You mentioned talking about past experiences. This is something I am going to think about with an open mind. I have always thought I shouldn't. I didn't want it to be an excuse for her to do something she would regret. But mostly, I don't want her to judge me. I think this is the biggest reason mothers don't talk about this part of their life with their daughters.


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## SimplyAmorous

LimboGirl said:


> I would like to tell her that sex is a special kind of honesty and as such it deserves respect and honesty in all its occurrences. We should never pretend someone means something to us in order to get sex. We need to be honest about our past experiences with our husband. If you wouldn't want to tell your husband your number, than don't create that number.


 I like this, I agree with you wholeheartily. There have been a # of threads on this forum where this comes out AFTER the vows, or one "omitted"- or outright lied to keep the other, and the mistrust that results, some feel bitterly betrayed, when it comes to light down the road. I recall this thread shorty after I started posting here ..... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ifes-sexual-past-lies-about-being-virgin.html

These things just shouldn't be. We need to be wholly transparent with someone we are about to marry -for life. If we can't share where we came from (after all these things help SHAPE who we are)... I wouldn't even consider being with someone who couldn't give me "that". This level of transparency would mean MORE to me than anything they have done, the willingness to not hide themselves, and allow me in. 

After all, the majority of us *WILL *have some experiences, even I did a few things with a neighbor boy -before I met my husband, just a little experimentation, it wasn't sex but I also can't say I regret it either. 



> After reading the threads from posters who have spouses that have suffered past sexual abuse, I would like to bring that up as a topic. It seems common that parents don't always know about these instances. We have had talks about these situations, but I never realized how much pain they can cause a spouse who doesn't know about them.


. 
Yes, this is something I left out !! The possibility of sexual abuse should ALWAYS be talked to our children! Say No! Protecting Children Against Sexual Abuse

I have a dear friend who learned the hard way, I remember her telling me yrs ago- about a BIL who had something happen in his past -with a young girl - but she was convinced he was cured, a redeemed man, married to her sister for yrs & yrs, they have a grown son, near perfect marriage, never a hint of ANYTHING. She would allow , on occasion, her girls & littlest son spend the night over their house, she trusted her sister TO KNOW he was "safe". Well, years passed, and if it wasn't for that little brother saying something to mom that didn't sound quite right (I forget what) she might have never started questioning her girls about those overnight stays.......what she learned- changed their lives forever .... he was TOUCHING HER DAUGHTERS & threatening & manipulating them to keep their mouths shut.

Her husband near wanted to kill him... her sister divorced him, he ended up in Jail, & on the National sex offender list- and her girls immediately into Therapy. 

Her youngest started drawing pictures to show how she FELT during that time, pictures with a LOCK on her lips, sadness on her face, it was a part of her own personal therapy. My friend ended up publishing a small readable book with a collection of her drawnings to speak to young kids about sexual abuse. Taken from her book is states ...


> There is less of a chance of your child being abused by a stranger than a family member, friend, or babysitter. It has been shown, for example, that in 90% of child-rape cases -the child already knows the abuser. She gives a warning to be cautious of individuals who would rather have the attention of children than adults, or who single them out with gifts, affection & fun activities. An abuser will often "groom" victims & their families for an extended period of time with nonsexual physical contact. Thus, the abuser might take months or even years before they begin to assult their victim. You need to trust your parental instincts to identify an unsafe situation for your child.


 Child Sexual Abuse | American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry

Child Abuse Research and Statistics

What to teach our kids as little as 18 months old .... 



> *What Can Parents Do to Prevent Sexual Abuse?
> 
> *Tell someone in authority if you suspect that your child or some else's child is being abused. No man stands as tall as he who bends to help a child. ~Robert Wagner
> 
> 
> Prevention measures to safeguard your children should begin early, since a number of child abuse cases involve preschoolers. The following guidelines offer age-appropriate topics to discuss with your children:
> 
> 
> Stay alert to sexual abuse and teach your children what it is. Tell them they can and should say NO! or STOP! to adults who threaten them sexually. Make sure your children know that it's OK to tell you about any attempt to molest them - no matter who the offender is.
> 
> *18 months *- Teach your child the proper (accurate) names for body parts. Diapering, potty time, and bathing are good times for this to occur naturally. Know with whom your child is spending time. Be careful about letting your child spend time in out-of-the-way places with other adults or older children. Plan to visit your child's caregiver without notice. Teach your child about the privacy of body parts, from the time they're toddlers, to respect their own and others' privacy (but maintain constant vigilance to ensure their safety).
> 
> Teach them to feel good about themselves, their bodies, and their future - to have self-confidence, self-respect, and self-worth. Teach them to express their feelings in words from early preschool age, and LISTEN to what they say. Don't stop just because they grown into teens.
> 
> *3-5 years *- Teach your child about private parts of the body and how to say no to sexual advances. Talk to your child about sexual abuse. Teach them specifically (children don't generalize; they are literal-minded) that no one may touch their "bathing suit" areas unless you are present or have given permission for a specific situation such as a doctor's visit, and that they are not to look at or touch anyone else's unclothed bodies without your permission.
> 
> Teach them to say "NO!" forcefully and loudly if someone tries to get them to do something that you have taught them is wrong or that they believe is wrong, and to get help if the person persists. Give straight forward answers about sex.
> 
> Teach them that the human body is beautiful and has inherent dignity. Children's books for this purpose or artistic paintings and sculpture can help convey this so that kids don't have to look at "dirty" pictures or experiment with playmates to satisfy their natural curiosity. Teach them that they can ALWAYS come to you if they feel uncomfortable in any situation and that you will help them. Remind them especially when they are away from home. Listen when your child tries to tell you something, especially when it seems hard for her to talk about it.
> 
> 
> *5-8 years *- Discuss safety away from home and the difference between good touch and bad touch. Encourage your child to talk about scary experiences. Give your child enough of your time so that the child will not seek attention from other adults.
> *
> 8-12 years *- Stress personal safety. Start to discuss rules of sexual conduct that are accepted by the family.
> 
> 
> *13-18 years *- Stress personal safety. Discuss rape, date rape, sexually transmitted diseases, & unintended pregnancy.


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## LimboGirl

SA,

Another good post. I don't remember if this has been said. We need to remember that older children can target younger children. Sometimes this may even just be curiosity on an older child's part. How it affects the younger child may be the same as abuse. Also there are abusers who are older children. 

So much to watch for. Sometimes it is hard to remember to present the beautiful side of sex.


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## SimplyAmorous

LimboGirl said:


> You mentioned talking about past experiences. This is something I am going to think about with an open mind. I have always thought I shouldn't. I didn't want it to be an excuse for her to do something she would regret. But mostly, I don't want her to judge me. I think this is the biggest reason mothers don't talk about this part of their life with their daughters.


This is how I think about this stuff... Not everyone is going to agree with me, these are just MY opinions. I feel when talking to hormonally charged teens, when they themselves might be on the verge of SEX with a real live boyfriend ..... it IS a way to be "relatable'..... to show the daughter....."LOOK, MOM was just like me- she struggled with the same STUFF as I am" ...it may just PERK up her ears-such honesty , even a little humbling... and bring YOU down to her level to some degree. Too many parents come off as narrow minded conservative ogers who you would have thought lived 100 yrs ago -while hiding how wild they really were. Why we think our kids are that clueless is almost silly to me. 

It is not that a parent has to share everything , or coarse not!! But if you have learned any 'valuable" lessons from the past-that could help her, spare her, yeah, even got caught up into temptation that overwhelmed - then regretted - this doesn't diminish who you are as a wife or Mother, it just shows you experienced something, it may have hurt you ...your honest intent is...to spare HER the same heartache. 

Maybe you have nothing you regret! 

I REALLY like this article-on this particular topic - this is precisely how I THINK on these things -to the letter...but I am not a Mormon (though I have good friends who are), I was hoping to find a non-religious article instead. 

How forthright should parents be about their past transgressions with their children? 

.


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## Advocado

Talking to my D about my own personal experiences would certainly be worthwhile if it gets her attention and helps her know that I am only human too. I t's not something I have contemplated doing before and so is a little daunting, but I am up for giving it a go. Thank you for suggesting this alternative approach. You are wise indeed!


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

SimplyAmorous said:


> My daughter is very very very precious to me. After seeing 4 little penis's in a row when giving birth, I can not even express.. finally.... hearing ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> !! :yay::yay:
> 
> 
> I count WHO my daughter marries oneday to be the single most important decision she will ever make in her entire life.....and how she handles her sexuality before she meets this man can not be under-estimated -in my opionion. It has the power & potential to destroy her dreams, or allow them to take flight to full fruition, with no regrets.
> 
> 
> 
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> *1. *1st, SEX will never be a dirty word in our household. I want my daughter to see playful displays of affection between me & her father, we do not hide kisses, hugs, even a little flirting, I want her to see a healthy happiness there. I also instill within her, even now - she can come to me with anything & everything, nothing will shock me, I understand human nature well, nor will I shame her for any subject. We are very open communicators in our family - It is a good foundation to be laid.
> 
> But 1st -what do I mean by SEX....I agree with this definition...."Having sex" means any consensual behavior between two individuals involving genital contact & bodily penetration. That means oral sex, anal sex, and vaginal sex are all "*sex' *" .... can read more here ..... The Definition of 'Sex'
> 
> *2. *I will teach my daughter .....Sex is beautiful thing ...but it has it's place, there is a time & a season for such beauty... it is meant to be shared between 2 people who LOVE each other. There is no greater pleasure God has given us on this earth, no emotional BONDING that has more meaning -as the giving & receiving in this way, that this act has the awesome potential to Create NEW LIFE..... that it should never be used casually, or carelessly, because of this very fact, It carries the greatest of responsibilities with it. It is the awesomest of the AWESOME. I will refer to it as "sacred" even.
> 
> 
> *3. *I will teach my daughter not everyone looks at Sex as this Special. What she sees in the media, magazines, tv, music, hears in school, even sees friends experience - too often results in broken relationships where sex was ingaged in TOO QUICKLY, the "bad boys" being praised for their conquests, Girls giving themselves to these gamers in hopes "for love", women dressing to entice the hot guys -and for what ? Hearts ripped in 2, tears, loss of self esteem sometimes, pregnancy faced alone, Grandparents raising grandchildren, children growing up without fathers, a night of physical passion without connection? Rubbers can be worn but the brokenness that follows SCARS our entire society.
> 
> I will ask her how she feels about these things. I will ask her what SHE wants for her own life. I will tell her she has POWER, she has CHOICES....and to never be led by "the crowd". She is her own woman.
> 
> Also she MUST take responsibility for those choices. Personal Responsibility is HUGE in our family -I will not allow my TEENS to see themselves as "victims" - if they had a voice & a choice in the matter.
> 
> Sure we all make mistakes, we forge ahead living in the moment, none of us are perfect, but to KNOW the "games" others play, know the "RISKS" of each action before indulging & OWN your own "hand" in it- this is a must.
> 
> 
> *4. *I will explain to my daughter, she WILL Have sexual urges, this is natural .... and to understand BOYS have those same urges -but raging 10 times MORE than she is feeling them- if that can even be imagined ! They are near blinded with LUST ...and this overflows out of thier mouths with flirtatious fury around the girls. To not be fooled, this has nothing ever to do with LOVE..... she needs to understand this completely, their minds have been near hi-jacked by Overloads of Testosterone. Some are scrambling to understand it themselves, their IS an immaturity there. Boys will also be compelled to look upon porn & oogle women, I don't care how "good" or "moral" they are, they *will *WANT to do this. My daughter will have a FINE education on the male sex drive.
> 
> A few comments from men themselves on the http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/34971-male-sex-drive.html thread about their youth, I appreciate their honesty! ....
> 
> 
> 
> *5. *I will explain to my daughter ...if a Boy truly has HER interests at heart (some are struggling with LUST & pangs of LOVE, their very own hearts).... if influenced by Genuine feelings of care & interest in MORE than some booty.... these boys will stick around, they will continue to woo her, "wait" for *HER*- every part of her, they will listen to her, they will take "the time" - (of course they will be fantasizing like mad in addition) but still they will try to BE that gentleman for their "lady".....take her out , make plans to enjoy things together, talks walks & talk, call her just to hear her voice, learn of her as a person, ask what she enjoys & make that happen.
> 
> These boys may itch to get in her pants, but she should never JUMP... if she is interested in them, TEST them with the ruler of TIME, allow them to openly reveal their "heart" in regards to her. This is wisdom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> I am of the belief.... Although ALL men LOVE & crave sex, they will "wait" & pursue the one girl that captures their heart & soul. Once they are "caught", they are ensnared. Love is the most amazing thing on this earth. The greatest love songs ever penned were written by MEN in love.
> 
> 
> 
> *6. *When she starts dating herself -being alone with a boy turning into a man, I will likely share how me & her father handled ourselves before we married. Where our boundaries were....was MORE than the Church would consider "moral" but it was LESS than what the majority, even within the church pew did themselves! So let the judgers judge. But for us... it kept us from burning with LUST, an "emotional connection" grew & we still had something "NEW" to bring to our Wedding night, what we deemed the most sacred to give to each other .
> 
> My daughter will have to decide for herself what her "*personal boundaries*" will be in this area.
> 
> Some women can enjoy Sex without an emotional connection... I personally can not understand this at all, I am greedy!! I would want BOTH, LUST is passionate & all Consuming -YES ! ....but I would want MORE from that man, I would tie myself to him, want to posses him , It would utterly DEVESTATE me if he did not feel the same as I, was cold the next day or ....gone.
> 
> I will talk openly to my daughter about this side of sex also, and ask how she would feel about such things. Explaining MANY men can separate this, one night stands are common. But I will always believe, overwhelmingly more women get HURT by these, loosing a part of themselves along the way.
> 
> 
> *7. *I will speak openly about STD's/ veneral diseases with my daughter.....she MUST not be ignorant of the physical ramifications that can come upon her body, some for life. Many do not even know they have it -when it is transmitted. Untreated, some can lead to pelvic inflammatory disease- which causes Infertility- which can risk her future chances of being a mother. STD's That Cause Infertility
> 
> A list here:
> Sexually Transmitted Diseases: Rhode Island Department of Health
> 
> *8. **I will teach my daughter there is a heavy EMOTIONAL side to sex*.... Sex releases certain chemicals in our brains that change the way we think ...the hormones released work to bond us to our partner, it's like gluing two pieces of paper together. If you tried to tear those pages apart, the break wouldn't be a clean one. The same kind of thing happens when there's a breakup in a sexual relationship. These break ups can be as painful as mini-divorces. If this happens over & over & over, it has a way of de-personalizing our emotions.
> 
> Also, these sexual memories of our 1st, 2nd, 3rd boyfriends may linger in our psyche, show up in the bedroom later with our very husbands, comparisons creep in. We may wish he was as BIG as #1, or his oral skills was as arousing as #2. It is just something to consider. Of coarse men can do this also, comparing old girlfriends to thier wives. Then we have the whole Facebook debacle with old lovers befriending each other & the nightmare that brings.
> 
> 
> *9. *Although many men will not care how many partners a girl had in her youth -they may even be ecstatic she is experienced & could show him a thing or 2! There are SOME men out there who will care, it has Great meaning to them -and it is not as much about "insecurities"...as much as it is about "the sacredness" they attach to "love making" -they feel this is the Greatest gift one can give their future bride/husbands, worthy of the waiting- hard as it may be to contain. My oldest son feels this way-strongly , I will not belittle that ..but being such a pure Virgin, I feel has it's RISKS also ...which brings me to ...
> 
> 
> *10*. Sexual Repression is far too common - 1 hinderance I do not wish upon any of my children, although I want them to wait -make sure they are loved & cherished BEFORE they "give" their full selves to another.
> 
> I will teach my daughter ... If she is going to be in a relationship with a man, she needs to understand him, and have compassion on what HE is going through physically, if he is willing to wait for her - IF that is even her desire. And a man NEEDS to know, without a shadow of a doubt, that even though she may not be READY to engage in genital to genital contact with him, that she craves physical intimacy with him, , that she is deeply sexually attracted to him. I would hope their openness would blossom to Orgasm talk & how they feel about them, as I feel a man should KNOW these things about any woman he marries. This gives him some indication of her sex drive, as this could vary greatly from woman to woman.
> 
> This will be very unpopular advice for strict religious believers, but I feel it is terribly RISKY for a high drive man to marry a pure untouched virgin, he really has NO IDEA if she will even ENJOY sex - which "could" put him in a near prison once married, if she finds out she doesn't care for it after the vows. LOVE is NOT ENOUGH to keep that flame alive, Healthy sex is vital to all marriages. I've read too many personal stories, very heart breaking.
> 
> I knew of one couple who didn't even KISS until their wedding day. Do I think they are crazy...yeah pretty much... but I guess it worked out for THEM, he was not resentful, they waited, they have no regrets..to each our own in our ...personal boundaries. So long as both is on the same page, you may have found your "match" made in Heaven.
> 
> I don't feel she needs to be so pure as to either of them burning with lust, while near crying to touch each other. I think we need to ENJOY each others body to some degree, even give each other pleasure. I think the problem most would have is..they wouldn't be able to stop- once they got going. I guess me & my husband are not the norm, we never went over our boundaries in this regard- though I sure remember wanting too! .


Wow! That is fabulous! You've covered everything and explain this very well! Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump

I was directed here by SimplyAmorous so as to not hijack another thread. She wanted to know my thoughts on teaching my daughter about sex from a Christian perspective.

I do have a daughter. She is too young for sex education now, so I haven't practiced what I'm preaching yet. But, I plan to tell her that sex outside of marriage is sinful. I will always use the qualifying phrase "outside of marriage" when discussing sex. Inside marriage, I think sex is wonderful. And I want my daughter to be clear on the difference.

It's tragic when girls are taught, or more probably accurately, infer, that all sex is bad. I doubt that many people teach that all sex is bad. But I will be making a concerted effort to train my daughter to save herself for marriage. And then she can go nuts with a clear conscience.


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## SimplyAmorous

PHTlump said:


> I do have a daughter. She is too young for sex education now, so I haven't practiced what I'm preaching yet. *But, I plan to tell her that sex outside of marriage is sinful. *I will always use the qualifying phrase "outside of marriage" when discussing sex. Inside marriage, I think sex is wonderful. And I want my daughter to be clear on the difference.


What do you define as *SEX *PHTlump? That word can encompass many things and many interpretations , depending on who you ask ... Bill Clinton comes to mind. 

What is going too far.....in the eyes of a Christian father.. at what point does the honorable become the sinful in your beliefs. 

Our Pastor did not even allow his sons to be alone with their girlfriends , they were only allowed in groups... for years - and they both married very young. Obvously he didn't trust them to restrain at all. Do you also plan to put such restraints on your daughters to ensure the lust doesn't lead a little further than what you feel is acceptable. Is Touching each other allowed or is that considered SEX to you? 

Or is sex = intercourse, what fuses 2 bodies as one. 

I don't think one can restrain feeling LUST, it is simply human....but we can draw our lines in the sand, restrain what we allow our bodies to do with it.  

I am a little disappointed.. I was hoping for more details from you.


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## Clarence Rutherford

PHTlump said:


> I was directed here by SimplyAmorous so as to not hijack another thread.


Same here, though I'm not a parent and wife & I don't plan to be (wouldn't stop one from coming though).



PHTlump said:


> I do have a daughter. She is too young for sex education now, so I haven't practiced what I'm preaching yet.
> But, I plan to tell her that sex outside of marriage is sinful.
> 
> I will always use the qualifying phrase "outside of marriage" when discussing sex. Inside marriage, I think sex is wonderful. And I want my daughter to be clear on the difference.


Well-stated.
You also need to tell them that they can be forgiven if they fall, which is very likely, Christian man/woman or not...



PHTlump said:


> It's tragic when girls are taught, or more probably accurately, infer, that all sex is bad. I doubt that many people teach that all sex is bad.


Good. Sex is created by God so it has to be good.
But in the proper context of marriage, of course.


----------



## Clarence Rutherford

*Re: young girls increasingly becoming seuxally aggressive with boys...*



*Dean* said:


> Depending on where you live, bring them up in a very Christian environment doesn't mean
> that they will not have sex before marriage.


This is so true. Surveys show many Christians, if not majority, have sex these days as teenagers.




*Dean* said:


> I would really make a big focus of their learning/teaching on males.
> How a growing boy thinks, how it changes when they become a young man,
> changes again when he becomes a mature adult male.
> 
> What motivates them during these different stages. What sex really means to them.


Good advice.
Young men need instruction maybe even more than young women.
Don't recall anyone talking with me about the importance of waiting, what the first time would be like, how I should treat women, respect them and the importance of falling in love first, etc.
If someone had told me about that (wasn't really raised in a Christian home), may not have had sex @17-18.


----------



## Clarence Rutherford

*Re: young girls increasingly becoming seuxally aggressive with boys...*

Listening to *Family Life Today *radio the other day, 
https://www.facebook.com/familylifetoday
... learn how young girls,* 12-16 y.o.,* are increasingly pressuring boys to get sexual with them.


> * Family Life Today*
> 
> 4/18 Would your son know what do to if he was propositioned by a member of the opposite sex? What about a member of the same sex?
> 
> Dennis Rainey, author of numerous books including "Parenting Today's Adolescent" and "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date," speaks frankly to parents about *equipping sons to handle aggressive girls.*



Would've thought it would be the other way around, but know these young girls are becoming increasingly aggressive, hitting on young men and wanting sex (not necessarily relationships). 
That isn't good for society and clearly, more education is needed for both sexes.


****SimplyAmorous *****
You need to visit the Family Life Today site, read more about the young aggressive women and talk with your sons about this....
They may not be able to resist...
Not sure if I could've @12-16.....


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: young girls increasingly becoming seuxally aggressive with boys...*



Clarence Rutherford said:


> ****SimplyAmorous *****
> You need to visit the Family Life Today site, read more about the young aggressive women and talk with your sons about this....
> They may not be able to resist...
> Not sure if I could've @12-16.....


Remember my sons are the Christians, not me. One thing they all seemed to get from me is this.. they are stubborn... but I think this is good, they will argue with me & tell me how it is. 

No woman is going to take them down...not if they don't want to be. Our 1st 2 is very much like their dad... Love is so very very important, my sons are very mature, not the typical wreckless behavior male. 

My 15 yr old thinks he found the love of his life already. I must admit , they are quite amazing together, even got the same Love languages in the same order....they talk about it all... both Hopeless Romantics. His head does not turn on another girl. 

I am very pleased with their values accually. To think my sons are more exemplary than myself in thier youth (at least my oldest is).... isn't that a little twisted !


----------



## Clarence Rutherford

*Re: young girls increasingly becoming seuxally aggressive with boys...*



SimplyAmorous said:


> Remember my sons are the Christians, not me. One thing they all seemed to get from me is this.. they are stubborn... but I think this is good, they will argue with me & tell me how it is.
> 
> No woman is going to take them down...not if they don't want to be. Our 1st 2 is very much like their dad... Love is so very very important, my sons are very mature, not the typical wreckless behavior male.


Good.
Yeah, remember you posting that.

However, even Christian men can be tempted. 
A girl laying next to a boy on a couch or in the back seat of a car, her being aggressive with her hands, etc., that could change things and many a guy may not resist.

Look what happened to *Samson *with Delilah... She teased or tormented him so much.... even a strong man like that wasn't strong enough to resist a woman's charms....
David and Bathsheba... Solomon with all those women who tempted him...
Marc Anthony and Cleopatra as well...



SimplyAmorous said:


> I am very pleased with their values accually. To think my sons are more exemplary than myself in thier youth (at least my oldest is).... isn't that a little twisted !


Yeah... but you were a virgin bride and handled yourself sexually responsible, as you posted, so don't think down of yourself....


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: young girls increasingly becoming seuxally aggressive with boys...*



Clarence Rutherford said:


> However, even Christian men can be tempted.
> A girl laying next to a boy on a couch or in the back seat of a car, her being aggressive with her hands, etc., that could change things and many a guy may not resist.


 Yes, I am so aware......and that is why I tell them.....if you find yourself in that lustful pickle of a moment...there are other options...to relieve....it doesn't have to BE .... whip it out & stick it in. That likely would not go so smoothly anyway! 

Something I have noticed...living out of own experiences I am sure.....is ....the parents who DID slip up in thier youth & engaged in premarital sex has more restraints on their kids - My Pastor went overboard in my opinion. My one GF had 2 kids out of wedlock, she doesn't trust her daughter at all....it really annoys her daughter to no end , telling me she can't even talk to her Mom, but she talks to me. 

Since me & mine didn't go past our agreed upon boundaries, it is surely possible that I am a bit "overly" trusting that ...."hey, they are our kids, they likely won't either". 

All we can do is give them a healthy teaching, warn them, if they show trustworthy behavior to me, I am going to trust them... We are very open communicatively about these things.... we can't put them on a leash...or watch their every moment alone. 

I am not really worried about my boys, even the girls Dad loves my son, the other day... I was picking him up, her dad was right there...he asked him if he could kiss her goodbye -he answered ..."go ahead". I just thought "oh my" But really, he is a fine young man, very respectable, I can't see him doing anything that would hurt her or his reputatioin with her family. But yeah, they are only 15 ! 




> Yeah... but you were a virgin bride and handled yourself sexually responsible, as you posted, so don't think down of yourself....


----------



## FirstYearDown

Bristol Palin was given abstinence based sex education. She was told to wait until she married for sex. Look at how that turned out.

I knew more than one young woman whose parents preached abstinence until marriage. One was pregnant at 16 and the other one never waited. Neither of them felt comfortable discussing sex with their parents for fear of being harshly judged.

My parents couldn't tell me not to have sex before marriage because they shacked up. My father tried to give me a hard time when I moved in with my husband before marriage, but I just laughed at him since he did the same with my mom. 

PHTlump, if your daughter had sex before marriage, would you want to know? Do you think she would tell you?


----------



## Thundarr

This is one of the best post I've read. I wish my parents had put thought into this the way you have Simply and had given me more information about relationships and life. To be quite honest this makes me question if I have done enough along these same lines with my own kids and has sparked me to think about it. I have three boys ages 23, 22, and 20.

To me you have spent time discovering what you believe to be truths in life (I really agree with your conclusions) and your passing that knowledge to your children. It's a blessing to them. 

One thing that moves me so much about your post is that I am so much on the same wavelength regarding right and wrong so maybe that weighs in some too. I guess what I'm saying is content is also important. Not just intention. I think it's very valuable to your children that you are passing along your wisdom, acceptance, expectations, etc.

Your children will surely make mistakes but good grief they should be less with this kind of family dynamic.

I saw a study that blew my mind years back because something as simple as the family setting down together at the dinner table every night made such a huge difference. It's just that family time where intimate connections are maintained that's so important. A lot of kids go out looking for it not really knowing why. 

I would comment on specific points but wow that was a long post. Thank you for letting me see it Simply.


----------



## costa200

This was a great post. I have a little daughter and this mirrors what i think about it with one small excpetion that has to do with proportions on this point 9. Because i'm a man who talks to his male friends and knows what's what i would make the following changes if i may:




SimplyAmorous said:


> *9. *Although *some* men will not care how many partners a girl had in her youth -they may even be ecstatic she is experienced & could show him a thing or 2! There are *MANY* men out there who will care, it has Great meaning to them -and it is not as much about "insecurities"...as much as it is about "the sacredness" they attach to "love making" -they feel this is the Greatest gift one can give their future bride/husbands, worthy of the waiting- hard as it may be to contain. My oldest son feels this way-strongly , I will not belittle that ..but being such a pure Virgin, I feel has it's RISKS also ...which brings me to ...


I'm pretty sure the majority of men care a whole lot about their partner's past attitude towards sex. Don't mistake what men say when in the presence of women (the politically correct version) with what they actually think about this. Ask any large group of men about what the profile of a long term relationship partner they would like and i'll assure you that the majority will not put "a large number of sexual experiences" as a requisite.


----------



## Thundarr

Good suggestion costa200. I believe that's true too Simply.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

costa200 said:


> This was a great post. I have a little daughter and this mirrors what i think about it with one small excpetion that has to do with proportions on this point 9. Because i'm a man who talks to his male friends and knows what's what i would make the following changes if i may......
> 
> I'm pretty sure the majority of men care a whole lot about their partner's past attitude towards sex. Don't mistake what men say when in the presence of women (the politically correct version) with what they actually think about this. Ask any large group of men about what the profile of a long term relationship partner they would like and i'll assure you that the majority will not put "a large number of sexual experiences" as a requisite.


 Thank you So much for sharing your amendment of these 2 words Costa200 (I eat your posts up by the way, love them!)....Thundarr's too. 

This is funny....your amendment is pretty much what I had planned all along to teach her.....but I found myself taking a step back, playing the fence, a little "Political correctness" as to not offend. 

Appreciate your taking the time to read my thread... It is so good to get the men's feedback themselves.... I won't be arguing this one.


----------



## costa200

> a little "Political correctness"


Nasty virus that one... A week of rest under some blankets and you'll get over it


----------



## larry.gray

As I was reading this post:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/privat...i-cheated-my-husband-left-63.html#post1035664

I thought of this thread. Do you want to know how important it is to teach your daughters to understand their own sexuality and how to be comfortable with it? Then read this thread and in particular this post.

That's one of the examples of what many call the reverse Madonna-wh0re complex. Many woman can't let her husband know her true sexuality because _nice wives aren't supposed to be that way_. Many women can't do that with their husband, but will go do it with some stranger instead. 

I hope this woman is able to work it out with her husband. But even they do reconcile, her and her husband are drastically, negatively affected by this.

I don't want my daughters to live that same fate.

P.S. Tears: I hope you are not offended if you come back and read this. I would hope that if your story could prevent another woman from befalling the same fate, that you'd consider this worth it.


----------



## RandomDude

^They go for hot young strangers like me xD

But I'm not that young no more  Oh well lol - Still remember when I picked up a lady 10 yrs my senior but she was married with a son only 5 yrs my junior!!! Heh good times

Anyways, on topic...
I'm staying away from the traditional family educational methods as well as right/wrong in favor of encouraging a more open-minded, action/consequence mentality for my daughter. As my wife and myself are both very stubborn individuals, I had expected our daughter to be as such.

Surprisingly however, our daughter is only stubborn with mum! xD
Maybe because her parenting style is different to mine, and personally I don't blame my daughter for sticking up the finger at times - and my wife complains when I don't back her up. lol


----------



## SimplyAmorous

larry.gray said:


> As I was reading this post:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/privat...i-cheated-my-husband-left-63.html#post1035664
> 
> I thought of this thread. Do you want to know how important it is to teach your daughters to understand their own sexuality and how to be comfortable with it? Then read this thread and in particular this post.
> 
> That's one of the examples of what many call the reverse Madonna-wh0re complex. Many woman can't let her husband know her true sexuality because _nice wives aren't supposed to be that way_. Many women can't do that with their husband, but will go do it with some stranger instead.
> 
> I hope this woman is able to work it out with her husband. But even they do reconcile, her and her husband are drastically, negatively affected by this.
> 
> I don't want my daughters to live that same fate.


I just read some of the posts on that page ....but wow -sooooo LONG ....so I am not in tune to her whole story..

Personally I can't imagine doing something with a stranger over your own husband -that would be 50 times more WEIRD. 

When I was Mrs Inhibited, it wasn't something sheilded towards him but let loose somewhere else... Never read up on that "complex". I think when your spouse is your best friend in this world, anything we are dealing with & feel strongly within, even torn within...we should be able to bring to him 1st, no matter what it is. 

I think all young women should gather some books on sexuality....very healthy. And every young Bride should get some books on Sexual Intimacy in marriage.... When I go to Bridal showers today....she will be opening some HOT Lingerie with all the ladies " ooooh ahhhhhhing, he's gonna have some fun with that !" type comments .....with this book >>> specifically geared towards the "nice wives" ....

 Sheet Music: Uncovering the Secrets of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage : Books


----------



## larry.gray

It is a case of having naughty sex because it can only be good if it is naughty. 

Sadly it is a story repeated over and over again.


----------



## forevermemorable

Your words are good, key, and fundamental. For the most part, I agree with the majority of what you have said. I don't think the sex topic should be shyed away from. I think mothers and fathers have a duty to educate, train, and warn their little ones (both boys & girls), about the lusts this world throws at them from every angle. I mean our media sucks...I am sorry for those who disagree, but I am tired of the sexual media that would distort the whole picture of sex, love, parenting, and marriage. Sex is distorted on TV, in movies, in songs. There is no respect for sex or marriage anymore. Its the 1960s all over again! Heck, they are starting to dress in the time era again.

This is why we have not watched TV in 7 years and we never let our kids watch any PG-13 or R movie. Its funny how I read about the Colorado movie theater shooting, which took place shortly after the movie started at 12am...that movie theater was packed with little kids (of course one of them was killed at the age of 6). These kids are force to watch these promiscuous and foul movies at such a young age, just because their parents want to see it for themselves. I mean, what are kids doing out so late and watching a PG-13 film. It breaks my heart. We have an acquaintance who watches all the slasher and horror films ever made...I mean EVERY ONE OF THEM! And she has allowed her child from birth to watch these with her (he is about 8 years old now). The kid's favorite movie is Saw...how sad is that. I am sure that kid will turn out just fine (maybe another Ted Bundy in the making).

Getting back on track. I want to shield my kids from this world as much as possible (at least from the distortion that is out there). Am I saying to keep them shield forever? By no means. I personally believe in integrating sexual ideas and distorted ideas slowly. I have a 6 year old daughter and a 10 year old son. I have talked to them both about what homosexuality is, except I did not specifically talk about how the genitalia is involved or the sexual gratification thereof. Last week, I spoke with my 10 year old son about what pornography is...that it is when ladies get naked and pictures are taken of them for money. But I did not go into detail about the sexual gratification people get from it as a result. I explained to my son that pornography is bad and against God. God does not want us to take delight in someone who is naked, with whom we are not married to. My son actually understood that much. "But you are still shielding your kids and side stepping the important aspect" you might say. Yes, you are right. I don't think the actual actions need to be discussed with my 6 and 10 year old kids just yet. And I am not shy from talking with them about the subject. Slowly but surely is how I look at it. Little by little. There is no rush, I believe. Our kids don't know who Hannah Montana is (although they ran into her at Target once), or Justin Bieber, or any other child singers out there. Our kids don't watch TV or go to the movies.

What my kids are is well behaved, well mannered, with respect for others, always saying thank you when it is needed, helping out others, respecting their parents. I love my kids and I am greatly blessed to have them in my life. My wife and I pray for their future marriages and their future lives and what God might have instore for them (we can't wait to see). I believe that you if raise a child in the right way, when they become older, those instilled values and morals will stay with them. It MUST start when they are young!

Again, I know most people will not share my convictions, morals, or values, but they work just fine for me and I would NEVER in a million years have them any different. Oh, it helps if parents practice what they preach...otherwise, what you say will be in vain!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

forevermemorable said:


> This is why we have not watched TV in 7 years and we never let our kids watch any PG-13 or R movie.


 Wow, your kids don't get to enjoy TV at all ~~ I take it your conversion was 7 yrs ago then.




> We have an acquaintance who watches all the slasher and horror films ever made...I mean EVERY ONE OF THEM! And she has allowed her child from birth to watch these with her (he is about 8 years old now). The kid's favorite movie is Saw...how sad is that. I am sure that kid will turn out just fine (maybe another Ted Bundy in the making).


 Well, my mother wasn't the brightest bulb... she took me to see the "Exorcist" when I was 9 !! YIKES .... but I think I turned out OK ... May I say... I was never violent, never been in a fight- except I did haul off & hit a gf over a religious argument in my teens (Religion causes so much trouble!)... I am kind to animals -except I do yell at my dog to shut up....& I've never succumbed to Demon possession either.  

You would not care for our Parenting style ForeverMemorable (no I wouldn't take them to see a slasher or the Exorcist).... BUT...days ago we took 2 of our kids & a neighbor girl on a Haunted Hayride & Haunted House... We had FUN !!!  Daughter did get a little scared but we laughed about it afterwards. I also take them trick or treating & have encouraged our Worship Leader son to watch Prayers for Bobby / ... Gay Teenage Suicide ... you see - he is against Homosexuality...being a christian.... but I want him to take into account ALL sides of an issue.. that is how we parent... 

He has Thanked me that I push him *to reason*, telling me this is one of the greatest Gifts I've ever given him as a Mother...I challenge his mind.... then he added I prepare him for Atheists...I guess that is a funny compliment - but I appreciated it none the less. 



> Last week, I spoke with my 10 year old son about what pornography is...that it is when ladies get naked and pictures are taken of them for money. But I did not go into detail about the sexual gratification people get from it as a result. I explained to my son that pornography is bad and against God. God does not want us to take delight in someone who is naked, with whom we are not married to. My son actually understood that much.


 Did you get some sexual gratification when you was a teen ForeverMemorable? Will you also share this with your son when he enters puberty -to let him know what a temptation this is - HOW VERY NORMAL IT IS - why such books as this are written >> Every Man's Battle: Winning the War on Sexual Temptation One Victory at a Time 

..... or will he be left feeling "shamed" for wanting to GO THERE....with Testosterone cursing through his veins? Even if he never looks upon a centerfold ....curvy naked images will be dancing in his head. 

This article written by a Pastor in regards to Masterbation actually suggests thinking of scripture...during a release...... I found this highly comical - forgive me.... I'd seriously be AMAZED if any BOY does this...And if they DO manage somehow - thinking about Jesus swinging a hammer or entering the church (see below )....if this becomes a HABIT years before they marry...Lets get REAL here...this husband's gonna have some issues in the bedroom !!! Mr Creative he will not be! Likely he will even be ashamed to Flirt with his wife... no room for a little erotic "dirtiness" ... Not sure your stance or if you've given thought to just HOW such stringent teachings attempt to control every thought... 



> *Teens and Masturbation*
> 
> So what can be thought about during masturbation? That brings us to our final "boundary" Scripture, found in Col 3:17: "Whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him." And a companion Scripture is found in Col 3:1-2: "Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things."
> 
> It is clear from Scripture that our thought life is to be one of purity & joy & one that is characterized by its focus on God. This is no pie-in-the-sky theology. Either the Bible is eminently practical in how its principles can be lived out or it is not. It is possible to do everything with a spirit & attitude of thanksgiving to God, regardless of the task at hand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A person can focus their heart on *Jesus swinging a hammer at a construction site* just as much as they can when entering the sanctuary of a church. There should be no difference between sacred and secular thought. Each thought should be given over to the control of Christ (2 Cor 10:5), and should be offered to God in a spirit of gratitude & joy. The only exception to this would be when the thought life has strayed out of its proper boundaries and has embraced *sinful thoughts*, such as the viewing of pornography or *lusting *after another person.
> 
> So, given the boundaries, is it possible to masturbate without straying into *sinful thoughts*? The answer is yes, for God, in designing the human body, has given it the ability to respond to physical stimuli without the necessity of embracing *sinful* thought patterns. And it is all right to enjoy the pleasurable feelings which accompany the activity. For example, when someone eats their favorite food, they are enjoying the pleasure of the feel & the taste of the food. Is it *sinful *to enjoy eating a chocolate bar? No. It only becomes a *sin* if the activity & the pleasure of eating become something which crowds out God, becoming an end to itself rather than being seen as a blessing from a loving God.
> 
> At that point, any activity, whether eating, playing golf, watching a sunset, or *masturbating,* has been abused and the person has fallen into the *sin of idolatry*. Therefore, when a person masturbates, their body will respond to the pleasurable physical stimulation that it is being given--especially teenage boys, whose testosterone & other hormone levels are at an all-time high & whose physical need for sexual release is very great (in fact, they are quite capable of achieving orgasm without ever once thinking of having sex with the latest monthly centerfold!). And if the thought life is kept under control, the act becomes an experience of blessing from the Lord, rather than a *shameful* one. The *sin* does not come in enjoying the experience, but rather in abusing a gift that a loving & gracious God has given to His children.


With all that fear of sinning going on & displeasing GOD ... that'd suck any JOY right out of the act itself. 

I agree with the author of this book ... Carmen Berry says.... " I was taught 2 contradictory things about sex. First, it is dirty, Second, I should save it for the one I love. No clearer statement could be made about the dichotomy presented to todays' Christians". 
 The Unauthorized Guide to Sex and Church: 

Being too stringent on *LUST* can warp a mind also = needing Therapy for some .... I tried to help this poster....she reached out to me feeling I would understand her trauma over stuffing her sexuality- FOR YEARS .... Never forgot one of her posts - please take a moment >>>>  1st post on THIS page 

I have a little story of how WE dealt with our son looking at Porn.. a classic.... but we are very pleased with the outcome.....though some Christians may cringe.... but ya know... our son felt comfortable talking with me, his mother! I got him laughing, and he THANKED me for NOT shaming him , even asking to put a blocker on his computer - because he didn't want to do that.... Post #14 HERE



> "But you are still shielding your kids and side stepping the important aspect" you might say. Yes, you are right. I don't think the actual actions need to be discussed with my 6 and 10 year old kids just yet.


 Yes , they are too young right now ....but when they hit puberty....their friends will be talking - friends who DO watch Tv, who listen to current music... Or do you Home school so this is not a threat?



> And I am not shy from talking with them about the subject. Slowly but surely is how I look at it. Little by little. There is no rush, I believe. Our kids don't know who Hannah Montana is (although they ran into her at Target once), or Justin Bieber, or any other child singers out there. Our kids don't watch TV or go to the movies.


 sounding more like Home schooling .... Are you proud your children have no idea who these current stars are ? Have you considered them being THIS out of touch with others outside of your beliefs - may lead to their being more Judgemental to those who they can not understand ...even harshly judgemental ? They will one day grow up , set foot outside your doors and mingle amongst non-believers, current trends...how will they be equipped to handle this ?? 



> Oh, it helps if parents practice what they preach...otherwise, what you say will be in vain!


 I do agree with you here. :smthumbup: A Mentor & inspirer ...a Hypocrite one does not make.


----------



## that_girl

Wow.


----------



## forevermemorable

SimplyAmorous said:


> Wow, your kids don't get to enjoy TV at all ~~ I take it your conversion was 7 yrs ago then.


I am sorry, but I would not use the word, "sorry." I would use the word thankful. I am glad that my kids are not indoctrinated by this world's mold of sex whenever you want, kill cops, disrespect parents, rise against the government, drugs, lack of morals, etc. etc. etc. What is good about TV? Okay, I will give you the history channel, along with National Geographic, some cooking shows, and throw in PBS. I am not sure about the future of Sesame Street though...LOL



SimplyAmorous said:


> you see - he is against Homosexuality...being a christian.... but I want him to take into account ALL sides of an issue.. that is how we parent...


I agree with your son, probably in most aspects of his Christian beliefs. We don't have to defend God! I agree, that homosexuality is condemned in the Bible and is against God. I don't need to see both sides...either I believe God at His Word or I reject Him. I am sorry, but I do not believe in a Christianity that only selects the passages out that you want to embrace and throw away what you don't agree with. I believe Thomas Jefferson did that with his Bible. And this is one of the reasons why individuals such as yourself and others hate us Christians, because we do not cave in or embrace homosexuality. I rather obey God than man and if my life is threaten some day to choose our society's laws over God's laws, I will gladly choose God. It's nothing new...it has happened scores of times in the past.



SimplyAmorous said:


> Did you get some sexual gratification when you was a teen ForeverMemorable? Will you also share this with your son when he enters puberty -to let him know what a temptation this is


I hear your undertones here SimplyAmorous...you write this in a mocking way, yet condescending. And to answer your question...I went through puberty just like the rest of mankind does. And yes, I will most certainty share with my son about masturbation, sex, drugs, and rock and roll.




SimplyAmorous said:


> ..... or will he be left feeling "shamed" for wanting to GO THERE....with Testosterone cursing through his veins?


I don't see testosterone as a curse, but what God has designed.




SimplyAmorous said:


> This article written by a Pastor in regards to Masturbation actually suggests thinking of scripture...during a release......


I really do not have an answer about whether masturbation is right or wrong. I would tend to see it as wrong, because lust is usually a factor involved and lust is a sin mentioned in the Bible. Which has begged the question among Christians, "Can you masturbate and not lust?" I really do not care to discuss this topic, because I am not entirely sure about it.



SimplyAmorous said:


> sounding more like Home schooling .... Are you proud your children have no idea who these current stars are?


Again, more of your condescending voice. I have heard your exact same pompous attitude with others, said in the exact same way you have (no need to try and convince me otherwise or apologize), I know exactly what you mean and how you are saying it. Do you think us Christians are like the typical Ned Flanders on the Simpsons...WRONG!

I could careless about the current stars, whether they be TV, movies, or singers. For the most part, I think they are terrible role models who are disrespectful to parents, stuck up, arrogant, sexual, profane, etc. I am glad my kids don't have role models like these...what a joke.

I think you also have your plethora of preconceived notions of how homeschoolers will turn out. I guarantee you this, those will just remain preconceived, without any merit.

Check out this You Tube video that is just a crack up, about home schooling:
Messy Mondays: Seven Lies about Homeschoolers - YouTube


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I like the History Channel & National Geographic too. 



> *ForeverMemorable said:* I agree, that homosexuality is condemned in the Bible and is against God. I don't need to see both sides...either I believe God at His Word or I reject Him. I am sorry, but I do not believe in a Christianity that only selects the passages out that you want to embrace and throw away what you don't agree with.



Do you realize how many WAYS scripture can be interpreted : How does one KNOW which is correct ? You realize everyone feels they have the corner of truth...




> *Literal*: The Fundamentalist view
> 
> *Historical Docoment*
> 
> *Midrash*: Jewish Rabbinical approach to interpretation sought to understand the literal, and then expand the teachings to contemporary issues. "light to heavy"
> 
> *Pesher*: Exegetical method that suggests the prophetic writings contain hidden eschatological significance, or divine mystery. Jesus used this method on several occasions. (Lk 4:16)
> 
> *Allegorical:* Assumes the text has a meaning other than what the literal wording says---- a parable is a short allegory with a Moral meaning. Allogories are often used in Literature.
> 
> *Typological*: seeks to discover a correspondence between people and events of the past and of the present or future. Matt. 12:40 - Jesus parallels the experience of Jonah with his own death. Moses was a type of Christ, who brought the people out of bondage, and was rejected by his own. Isaac when he was offered up by Abraham.
> 
> *Christological*: Firstly, Jesus, and then the writers of the New testament had a decidedly Christocentric approach to Bible interpretation. Old testament passages were viewed in light of the new knowledge they now had about the person and work of the Messiah.
> 
> *Functional*: Fitting scripture into current day context, disregarding the historical context



And speaking of Homosexuality - I have no personal close friends who are...I have no motive or beef defending ...none....but yeah...I do have issues when others harshly condemn -just using scripture, most especially if such people are not hurting anyone....I do not find Godliness in this. 

I believe in Justice , I believe even in punishment for bad behavior, consequences, all for responsibilty... I love Proverbs, I enjoy Ecclesiastes... but how do you know some are not BORN this way... without walking in their shoes, I surely don't feel anyone would choose this lifestyle .... IF God allowed them to be BORN this way, but they can not express themselves, well what torment that would be - can you imagine not being able to express yourself sexually ?? 

Why does God allow children to be born "*Intersexed"* (Physically neither male nor female OR both & Doctor plays God & corrects) Intersex - Wikipedia,  ....why are Children born retarted, simese twins & many odd things that shouldn't be (through no fault of the parents), so if the case can be made that children are born with mental problems, Reason allows me to believe they can be screwed up in the sexual sense also. (back in Bible days, we'd call them Possessed), we have learned something , haven't we? 

I know nothing about what some claim about DNA strands, etc. So I am not convinced 100% one way or the other, so I lean towards alot of grace towards these people. 

But I do QUESTION the original words & translations in the Sodom & Gomorrah story pointing exclusively to "Homosexuality", it definetely was other sins as well - 

In Ezekiel 16:49-50, it says ....."Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had *pride*, *fullness of food*, and *abundance of idleness*; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were *haughty *and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit." 

It was also .... 1) Pride 2) Gluttony 3) Lazyness & 4) Not caring for the Poor . 

The New Testament also speaks of "the sins" of Sodom and Gomarrah in Matthew 10:12-15; Mark 6:10-11 & Luke 10:10-12.



> And this is one of the reasons why individuals such as yourself and others hate us Christians


 Please believe me when I say this... . I do not hate Christians...the majority of our friends R christians, some even Home school ! Our oldest wants to be a Youth Pastor...I even thank so many wonderful people for being in his life & contributing to who he has become, it surely is not all from my hand . Although without our influence ...if left completely to the church, I would fear he may become too much of a "Fundamentalist". 

So in this way...we are worlds apart . Forgive me for coming off condescending... this is not what Jesus would want , in this way my attitude is wrong.. I am surely not perfect - I admit I enjoy a little debate and can get carried away... It is better to be humble...just ask questions .... Finding common ground is more what I am about vs. purposely ticking people off. 



> I don't see testosterone as a curse, but what God has designed.


 Absolutely God did give man testosterone... I so agree with you ! :smthumbup: But it does affect the mind, there is scientific proof on these things. To try to work against nature & stuff how Test influences the mind telling yourself such thoughts are all evil & sinful -so no touching - will only hurt a young mind. Yes, self restraint - don't jump women, even trying not to set your eyes on porn - I'll give you that, but boys and fantasizing.... I say God's design as well - If you teach masterbation as a SIN, you automatically set your children up for serious sexual repression/ guilt & shame towards sex. Unless they want to be a monk... I would not count this as wise. 



> I really do not have an answer about whether masturbation is right or wrong. I would tend to see it as wrong, because lust is usually a factor involved and lust is a sin mentioned in the Bible. Which has begged the question among Christians, "Can you masturbate and not lust?" I really do not care to discuss this topic, because I am not entirely sure about it.


 I ADORE this topic, so if you come back here, indulge me... here are the various VIEWS on* lust*... various interpretations of the Bible explained ....but like everything else... how does ANYONE know which is correct?? (my point when I discuss religion)

Seriously these are great links and they will have YOUR viewpoint in them as well - as it explores all views, so one can compare..

Did Jesus forbid masturbation in the Gospel of Matthew?


*Handling feelings of lust* >> Jesus' Attitudes Towards Sex



> I know exactly what you mean and how you are saying it. Do you think us Christians are like the typical Ned Flanders on the Simpsons...WRONG!


 I have never watched the Simpsons.



> I could careless about the current stars, whether they be TV, movies, or singers. For the most part, I think they are terrible role models who are disrespectful to parents, stuck up, arrogant, sexual, profane, etc. I am glad my kids don't have role models like these...what a joke.


 I agree with you, neither do I buy People's magazines, or buy into the hype...I find Hollywood's morals the greatest example of how Riches, hot attraction & Success can never buy love & happiness in this life... 90% of these people do not represent Character for the most part. Real people are much more interesting to me. 



> I think you also have your plethora of preconceived notions of how homeschoolers will turn out. I guarantee you this, those will just remain preconceived, without any merit.


 Me & my Son feel the same on this issue... if Christians truly care about this world & desise to win souls..aren't we to put ourselves out there & BE examples before men....that light -not putting it under a bushel (Matt 5:15)... to bring about change, influence those around us...HOW is this accomplished when we take the *GOOD kids* raised by decent parents out of the school system ?? 

Our 1st son and 2nd son was in the Christian Bible club in their High school (the only boys who went) .... standing at the Flag pole every year praying with their youth Leader..I never told them to do this, they wanted to... These are the lights... they get filled in church, encouraged by their brothers & sisters, then set out in the world to stand strong and be that example. 

Does this make any sense. I do not want to offend you.. honestly.


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## forevermemorable

SimplyAmorous said:


> Do you realize how many WAYS scripture can be interpreted : How does one KNOW which is correct ? You realize everyone feels they have the corner of truth...


Yes, I agree that there are some difficult passages in the Scripture, but I cannot explain to you how a Christian just knows in his or her heart what is right and wrong, unless you are a fully converter born again Christian. I don't question the Word of God at all...never have and never will. I believe that the Bible is the Word of God given by divine revelation through the power of God to man, who have inscribed that which God wanted them to write about. I believe in the Bible as flawless and perfect. Yes, there are many errors and inconsistencies through the Bible which have been a direct result of human error over the years of transcribing the Bible. However, the original text is without error and flaw.

I think a good King James version or a New King James version of the Bible is a really accurate translation. Its a strange thing SimpyAmorous when one comes to the knowledge and conviction of who Jesus is and puts his or her trust in Him. When I did this in 1992, my eyes were more open than ever before. It was like a veil was lifted from my heart and mind. I just knew that I knew that God and Jesus are real and understand what life was all about. I went from darkness to light with a simple opening of my heart. Until anyone understands that concept, you will never really know. Until you open your heart to Jesus, allowing Him in to take precedent, the Bible will just be another book full of stories and wonders. God will just be what you make of it. The Bible will not be taken at face value. There is no sin or hell...God will accept everyone...we will have a big kumbaya in heaven when all is said and done with.

This is one of the hardest things from those who are born again believers and those who are not. I do not believe in two truths out there. Either Jesus' claim to be the Son of God is true or it is false. There cannot be two truths. And on the other end, Mormons believe that Jesus is Lucifer's brother...we both cannot be right now, can we. There cannot be two truths! I don't believe that all roads lead to heaven. I believe that all roads lead to God, but those who deny Jesus Christ and the cross will face eternal judgment in hell. I believe that those who accept Jesus as their Messiah will receive eternal life in heaven. Christians are hated for that belief, because it paints us as being narrow minded and shuts everyone else out who doesn't believe. Am I the judge or any other Christian for that matter? Of course not...God is the judge and His words are faithful and true. God is not only a God of love and mercy, but He is also a God of righteousness, truth, and judgement. People don't like to view God as a righteous judge. They want to view God as a magic little gene who will fulfill your every wish. That is not the God I follow, worship, and serve.

And don't wish anyone would go to hell, neither does God. god's desire is that none should perish, but that all should be saved. Unfortunately, everyone is responsible for making his or her own decision. The choice is simple and must be made by all...choose Jesus or reject Jesus. There is no middle ground or another truth that will save you. Jesus said that He is the only way, the only truth, and the only life! No one can come to God, except through Him (John 14:6).



SimplyAmorous said:


> IF God allowed them to be BORN this way, but they can not express themselves, well what torment that would be - can you imagine not being able to express yourself sexually??


I believe with all my heart that being homosexual is not innate. I believe with all my heart that God has never created anyone homosexual or with a "gay" gene. There is no proof...and I have studied this, but our media says its true, therefore it must be true. The homosexual is that way by choice. Just as much as someone who lies is a liar by choice or someone who lust is by choice. "But you are comparing homosexuality with bad things," you might say. I am comparing homosexuality with other sins that God has condemned in the Bible.



SimplyAmorous said:


> I do have issues when others harshly condemn -just using scripture, most especially if such people are not hurting anyone....I do not find Godliness in this.


Let me enlighten you about this. Lets take a look at the pervert who lusts over little children. "That's gross, disgusting, and immoral," you might say. I agree! But, this person is not acting out his impulses...he just enjoys getting off on little children (sorry to be graphic, but I need to drive my point here). Okay, this pervert is not hurting anyone...he is keeping it all to himself, confined in his own mind. Just like the homosexual, this guy who is lusting after little children is not hurting anyone. "But eventually he will act out his impulses," you might say. Perhaps...not guarantee.

We live in a society that says, "If it makes you feel good, then go for it." And this has allowed all sorts of perversion into our cultural. Hey, if raping makes you feel good, then go for it. If murdering makes you feel good, then go for it. Etc. Etc. Etc. "But that's really stretching the truth," you would say. I don't think so, because we excuse these people at trial claim that they have a "disorder" or that it is not their problem, it was a result of their upbringing, etc. etc. There is no real justice and often times they are let off the hook or get minimal time (Caylee Anthony). I guarantee you that the victim's family would have it otherwise.

The way I believe that God views homosexuality is a sin, just like any other sin. There is ample amounts of Scripture to prove it and there is no loose interpretation about it. The only loose interpretation comes from those who would twist the Scripture to have it read or believe what they want it to be. God is not mocked and God's truth still stands. I do not judge the homosexual...I just believe in what God has made mention about it. Let me share with you and see if there is a way you can look at the passage another way. I will use the King James Version. And these are only 4 passages in Scripture among many others, but these ones are very clear in what they say...

1) Leviticus 18:22, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

2) Leviticus 20:13, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination:"

3) Romans 1:26-27, "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

4) 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." The "abusers of themselves with mankind" is speaking of homosexuality

If you want to read more about this topic and the Biblical belief, you can go here:
Homosexuality: The Christian Perspective | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site



SimplyAmorous said:


> Did Jesus forbid masturbation in the Gospel of Matthew?


I did not follow that link you provided, but I can give you my own view and belief from what I have read and studied in the Scriptures and from going to Bible College. Jesus never once talked about masturbation in the Scriptures! Never, never, never! Jesus spoke about looking on a women to lust for her, which is wrong, but he never made anything clear about this topic. Again, I really do not have a dogmatic view about whether the actual act itself it wrong or not. I have actually masturbated as a kid without any lustful thought towards someone...it was more of a release for me.

In closing, a lot of what I have talked about will not resonate with you. My words will be empty and futile, unless you believe. Only then will you know the truth and that truth will set you free. What does that mean to be "set free?" It means to be set free from a life of bondage and sin. It means to be set free of a false way of thinking. It means that you will know with utter certainty that when you breathe your last breath here on earth, you will be in the presence of Jesus in heaven. The is what it means to be set free. Its what faith is all about. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).


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## SimplyAmorous

ForeverMemorable... I realize you are trying to help, and believe me ....I could go rounds with you - I have a warped sense of enjoyment debating religion... But we both know it is fruitless....You are a Fundamental believer who feels I am LOST, blinded, in grave sin & denial....as you feel the majority of us are in this life -outside of your specific beliefs. 

I simply do not agree with you. Our Foundations are different ~ Yours is built on Faith /100% trust in scripture ... mine is built on Reason & how one treats their fellow Man- aiming for those fruits of the spirit. 

Your experience is NOT my experience. IF this works for you, .. by golly.... live this way..... I hope your children will not rebel.

I've seen 1st hand ...parents in my own church....their kids hiding/lying because they can't talk to their parents...one girl poured her







out to who.... ME & my son....she shared how she cut herself because her parents are so strict, she wasn't allowed to do anything... she left that house before she even graduated, a family divided. Amazingly she is still a believer but will she be that strict. NO. 

Our family throws Large Bonfires for youth groups in the summer, I get to talk amongst them, I hear many of their trials/ tribulations/ joys...their families trust us with their kids....we're not bad people. 

I Love & treasure my life, everything that has been given to me...is this not from God....by HIS hand? He knows my







... my inner motivations... I do my darnest to live by my conscience - in how I treat others ....sure I mess up....but I aim to make it right - where does this come from? 

He knows the gratitude I feel ~ the tears of Thankfulness expressed. My husband, our children....Oh the answered prayers...down to the very House we live in -so against the odds when he made peanuts - to the position he got hired- so we could afford to raise our growing family. I believe God is in our life. 

Our son almost lost his arm a few months ago, a freak glass accident, 1-2 centimeters from slicing his tendon working as a Camp Counselor ....was God in that ~ The way it played down, even I felt it. Couldn't have asked for a better outcome . 

I believe He IS with our family... This is enough. 








To me... it matters not what anyone believes, because if their belief makes/helps/uplifts them to be that better person/that good example to mankind & more helpful to society as a whole in this crazy selfish world, then I say .... "Live and let be", cause I think we all have MORE in common than NOT in common if we could just look beyond our "Creeds".


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## forevermemorable

Actually, I beg to differ about reason not formulated in my beliefs, understands, and perception of God. Simple logic and deductive reasoning proves to me that God is who He says He is. Have you heard of the book, "The Case for Christ?" An awesome book about reasoning and disproving God through simple logic on every aspect of our educational system. If you do not have a copy, pick one up. In fact, I would be more then happy to mail you a copy.

Something interesting happened today with my kids. A neighborhood girl (age 8), who goes to public school was hanging out with my kids. They have hung out before and I have seen signs of trouble with this little girl. Her parents are really non-combative and quiet folk. So today, when my kids (ages 10 & 6) were hanging out with her, she said three different times, "Go suck your D-I-C-K." This was said not as a proposition but as an insult. I mean really...age 8! And this girl pointed to her private area and mentioned that that was what it was (Well, not necessary hers, but getting the point across to my son). This is the first time my kids have been introduced to that word.

I have actually made mention to my kids about a year ago about certain profanity words we do not say (i.e. the "s" word, "a" word, and I may or may not have mentioned the "f" word). Of course, I actually said the word straight out, so my kids would know what the words are. I did not make mention of the "d" word...it did not cross my mind. So I guess I will have another talk with them about this. I have found nothing but foul, screwed up kids come out of the public school system. My public school days were the worse days of my life. All I see is kids using any kind of language and talking about sexual things and even doing sexual things at such early ages...unacceptable! And that kid of behavior will not be tolerated with my children. So, my kids will never be allowed to hang around this 8 year old girl and I will be talking with her parents to let them know why.

In fact my son, when he was in preschool (before homeschooling days) and what actually set my wife and I into pursuing the home schooling route, he came home with such an attitude...disrespectful to us...his demeanor was totally different... defiant...this is preschool mind you. One time he was mad at his mother and said the "F" word at her three times. Now, we don't use that language in our house and the language is not used at the church we go to. That leaves only one place...the preschool. Turns out, there was a couple of kids there in preschool using that language and teaching my son really bad habits about hurting others. One time I went to pick my son up and another kid was ramming his stomach into my son and I asked my son what he was doing with the other kid and he said, "We are touch pee-pees." That was the last straw and I went to the principal of the school and told her what had been happening and that I was pulling my kid out for good. Of course, she gave me the BS line of kid's exploring each other and learning. Of course, she was more concerned of the funding that would be lost as a result of my son's withdrawal. Never the less, the home school route entered our family and has been that was for that past 7 years and we wouldn't trade it in for anything this world has to offer.


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## SimplyAmorous

.... More the reason to have the good kids in school - to be an example..to show another way, that swearing doesn't have to be used to get a point across.... .. I look upon this very differently than yourself ..... I don't treat my kids like they have virgin ears, the world is big/ LOUD / in your face obnoxious / scary / even unforgiving....I wouldn't expect anything less...

So long as their lives are not being threatened, bullying going on to the point of affecting them emotionally...they will find a few kids to hang with who are not little monsters that need their mouths washed out with soap. This will be their strength, a little sphere of influence...a seed started. Children who learn how to stick up for themselves will fare much better in life...that may be something to work on at home... after all... "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me". (Phil 4:13) He never meant for it to be easy... and us parents can be praying at home. Isn't this what* Faith *is about also? 

Your children, my children... spend far more time at home listening/ being mentored...our examples before them...this RUBS off on them even more so -they find they are *different* than other kids ... but they see how WE handle it in society.. and we survived ....this gives them courage to face every new day...they may need to pray over scriptures every morning -to even walk out that door, but again, this is where FAITH resides ... so they can stand up, stand tall , keep going and remain true to themselves - BE who they are in front of the bad boys & girls. 

I want my kids to be strong, to stand up against temptation, up against wrong thinking - go against the grain of society- if they don't agree.... this is what I have raised for the most part.. 

...But I do swear on occasion, so I am a no good scoundrel of a mother to someone like yourself....it is more for "effect"... funny our 2 oldest sons DO NOT... so even living with me & my foul mouth at times (I am exaggerating here- plus when husband is working on a vehicle - many things fly out of his mouth)... You would deem us worldly horrible people. What we are is... honest. I would not even have a desire to be as Proper & Holy as some I have met, having to worry so many things may offend. 

I simply teach my kids to THINK for themselves, to weigh all sides, to use reason, to treat their fellow man how they want to be treated, to to kind to those who are left out, to NOT GO ALONG WITH THE CROWD to be accepted.....so far so good .... and I love their friends, they are making GOOD choices, I open my house to many teens. I am sure not all school districts are created equal in this country though, some more ROUGH than others. 

Men go to Battle...they see things that have the potential to destroy them....but their reasons for being there is to help mankind, we can take our kids and remove them - protect their ears, treat them like little Prince's & Princesses in this life.. but it won't make them stronger, it won't make them the valiant Heroes who extend their hand to help the "the least of these"- to influence for our God. 

I feel strongly in what I am speaking here. I have a religious Aunt...she corrects people if they speak a certain way, she shuts them down.... she influences NOONE, her own son tells me he can't talk to her...been that way for years... She is very self righteous. One feels judged just having a difference of opinion around her or we can expect a sermon. 

We live between 2 families- both with little girls my daughters age...one won't allow the little girl next to us to visit her house anymore....she doesn't like her "drama" - says she doesn't need her daughter around that... Me, on the other hand, I have compassion on this new neighbor, she came from a divorced home... she is angry, she acts out - I can handle her.. I may have to put her in her place now & then, sit her down & we have a talk....but this I know... her hanging with my daughter gives her JOY in this life... even though she is working out her drama -at our house at times - they FIGHT - but I am not going to kick that little girl to the curb so she can go cry alone in her room & not have friends. My God would not want that. 

I don't need that much peace in my life.. I'd rather get down in the dirt & offer new memories to a hurting child. 

This is how I teach my kids to be. Well, so long as their parents are half decent, not into drugs, been in prison -I'm not up for worrying some unscrupulous family is going to rob us or do us dirty. 

These kids with the foul mouth, how are they supposed to see another way of living if you hide yourself, shut the door in their faces -fearing their dirt will corrupt you. Jesus sat with the sinner... they may have worn their sin on the outside openly .... but you know the comparison he gave to the Pharisees about being so careful to clean the outside of that cup - (Luke 11:39).

The most loving man I ever knew in this life was my Alcoholic step Father, he took people in off the streets- opened his home, I'm talking the Homeless here, people living under bridges... Oh what an example, he swore like a truck driver but his heart... Jesus would be more than pleased ...he LIVED this Matt 25:35 >>> "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me." 

When I hear this song, I can't even get through it -because this was how he felt about such people 
 He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother  ...My mother wrote a poem entitled just that - about him. 

These are the things that Touch Me.


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## SimplyAmorous

One more example.... 

Our last Bonfire...we gathered around in my kitchen with this couple......well known in the community for their service with the Youth, loved by all... warm / friendly...we talked about some deep stuff ....they shared about their new Ministry... that God laid on thier







's.... to help kids off the street that have been KICKED out of local youth groups, these are the kids that are too rough, those foul mouths, behavior others didn't find appropriate.... talk about inviting a [email protected]#$%%^

Now if you met this woman....she is the most laid back, sweetest darn disposition.....so easy to talk too, approachable. I've always LIKED her -that day I was more than impressed with her walk/ how she lives /her heart --and his ...and they didn't down ME for my views either.... I shared openly...I did not get condemnation from them....sure we are off in our theology a bit - but they told me...I would fit right in, to come over & join them. 

She shared 4 things that really bother her about Churchs/ Christians today... 

*1.* Always using John 3:16 but forgetting verse 17 about not coming to condemn..

*2.* When churches preach we can be "perfect"....we are all imperfect

*3.* How they jump on Homosexuals like it is a greater sin

*4* About hanging with sinners >> we are supposed too – not separate ourselves . 

.. I was amazed how much we were on the same page ~ now for me, these sorts of Believers could win me back into the fold, I DIG THEM !

Ya know, everyone has a differnt take ... I have their ministry on my Facebook page... we drive past where these kids meet up weekly......We see them out there with these teens, having FUN, basketball, doing things together/fellowship, offering a listening ear, getting them off the streets, making a difference in their lives...this can branch back to their parents even... 

ForeverMemorable...Tell me this isn't what Jesus wants ??


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## 2ntnuf

My son is homosexual. I love him. He is a good young man. He loves God and believes in heaven and hell. I know God loves him. I do not believe he is going to hell. I do not condemn him. Although I have had trouble accepting his preference, I have, over time, come to realize there are much worse things under heaven which he could be doing. 

I don't know if it is from birth or a choice. He says it is from birth. I have told him, in the past that I do not want to see him kissing his partner when he is at my place. It is a hard thing for me to accept. It is something I am working on but, I cannot look at that without feeling disgust. I do respect him as a person. I believe he is honorable. I would not trade him for the world. 

SA, thank you for your comments in this thread. You have allowed me to see into your thoughts and others. It is a gift to read others opinions and be able to compare thoughts. I find I am not terribly different from others. I am fairly "normal". I need to know this. Thank you.


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## BjornFree

"A REAL man, the kind of man a woman wants to give her life to, is one who will respect her dignity, who will honor her like the valuable treasure she is. A REAL man will not attempt to rip her precious pearl from it's protective shell, or persuade her with charm to give away her treasure prematurely, but he will wait patiently until she willingly gives him the prize of her heart. A REAL man will cherish and care for that prize forever.” 

Leslie Ludy


----------------

The Real Man sounds so boring.


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## SimplyAmorous

2ntnf, my husband just walked past, looked at my screen, pointed out your avatar laughing saying he likes that  

Aren't we all "normal" - is their anything new under the sun ~ as the saying goes in Eccl 1:9. 

Ya know....people often feel alone because we FEAR being condemned so we don't talk about the "hard" stuff. I am not sure even how I would react if one of my children came to me with this.... I know I would feel some disappointment ... and have many why's....but at the end of the day - I would feel as you expressed here...." I have, over time, come to realize there are much worse things under heaven which he could be doing".

Can you imagine what Cher has went through with her daughter... I would never make fun of these people. Until one has experienced what they have, walked in their shoes... I just can't do it. I'd choose to listen to their story before I open my mouth.

I have my line drawn in the sand for many things in life , what I would condemn...the 4th digit on my temperament is *J* for "judging" for goodness sakes. I would even march in the streets for some things... but being different.....when one is also a fine citizen, contributing to society, treats others with dignity & respect, being a "good man" as you described your son.... this is just not one of them. 

One of the nicest bosses I ever had was Gay... a friends brother who ironically was in love with me when he was a little kid -turned Gay , I must have messed him up good [email protected]#$%^ My husband jokes about that at times..... he was the funniest thing... I'd go to their house.... he'd be screaming he loved me, wanted to have my babies, not to leave... Oh the memories... Not sure if he was born this way . He was an Alter boy in the Catholic Church...... hmmmm [email protected]#$%^ 

Have a friend who was a Christian for a long time, but she got so much condemnation about her brother being Gay....she shared with me how this affected her to the point -she despises the religion now. She had to "accept" her brother. 

Thank you for your words 2ntnf .... You are a good Father.


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## Broken at 20

I just wanted to say thank you SimplyAmorous for showing me what a loving family is suppose to look like. 
Guess I forgot. 

Nice to know that they are out there. 

And nice to know there are mothers out there that tell their daughters what to expect in the real world. And you do it a religious, but also a modern world view. You realize they both have flaws, and use the one or the other to form a more realistic and practical approach to how to approach sexuality in a modern world. 
Gives me some hope. 

Thanks.


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## SimplyAmorous

forevermemorable said:


> Have you heard of the book, "*The Case for Christ*?" An awesome book about reasoning and disproving God through simple logic on every aspect of our educational system.


 Very familiar ~ author Lee Strobel ... I once had a Poster here so annoyed with my views.... he started a thread called "*the Simply Amorous challenge*"... we went rounds, he was rather rude in his delivery (I didn't mind)...but others did....he got himself warned, a thread locked... then banned - because of it. 

He ended up deleting his original thread (bummer) -he was starting to get soft & open up, a little vulnerable, then the next morning it went Poof... so I started a new one (below).... .. anyway.... the same question YOU are asking me - he asked... or I explained ... Post #28 ...the types of Hermeneutic books I've read....

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/politi...rothead-why-delete-button-sa-challenge-2.html

What is funny about Parrothead is this.... he started out seriously annoyed with me, wanted to prove me wrong.. pound me into the ground with his theology...and by the end of our communications (3 threads in all- after that one was locked he started another)...He was telling me I was a christian!!! Now if that doesn't take the cake !!


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## SimplyAmorous

BjornFree said:


> "A REAL man, the kind of man a woman wants to give her life to, is one who will respect her dignity, who will honor her like the valuable treasure she is. A REAL man will not attempt to rip her precious pearl from it's protective shell, or persuade her with charm to give away her treasure prematurely, but he will wait patiently until she willingly gives him the prize of her heart. A REAL man will cherish and care for that prize forever.”
> 
> Leslie Ludy
> 
> 
> ----------------
> 
> The Real Man sounds so boring.


Hey Hey now BjornFree... you are stomping on my Good husband saying that !!

So you are the type that wants to RIP those pearls from her protective shell & take her treasure unto yourself - in dating or the back seat, are you... Bad boy written all over that !! 

Yeah, those types might be EXCITING and FUN... no doubt about it .... us women LIKE some of that too !  ... so long as she is yielding - for the right reasons, not to win such a man... as far too often ~ this backfires in her face.


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## stoney1215

i love the quote about " a real man " . i am sure that it was refering to sex . i want sex just as much as anyone . i also consider myself " a real man " . sex is the least valuable thing a woman can give to me in my opinion . when a woman gives me " the real her " that is truly a precious gift . 

when a woman gives me her deepest , darkest secrets . that is the real her . when she gives me her most intimate , embarrassing , and secret sexual desires , that is the real her . when a woman gives me her complete trust , that is the real her .

that is what is valuable to me . that is what i gave to my wife . " the real me " . that is truly the most valuable thing i have .


----------



## SimplyAmorous

stoney1215 said:


> i love the quote about " a real man " . i am sure that it was refering to sex . i want sex just as much as anyone . i also consider myself " a real man " . *sex is the least valuable thing a woman can give to me in my opinion* .


 Player written all over that statement. You must have had alot of Cows giving free milk over the years - I bet you're an ALPHA male who didn't have to work to get them unbuttoning your pants... chicks lined up / banging & doing what comes your way.... am I right? 

But as you learned - this didn't satisfy something deeper ... like the rest of your post here...



> when a woman gives me " the real her " that is truly a precious gift .
> 
> when a woman gives me her deepest , darkest secrets . that is the real her . when she gives me her most intimate , embarrassing , and secret sexual desires , that is the real her . when a woman gives me her complete trust , that is the real her .
> 
> that is what is valuable to me . that is what i gave to my wife . " the real me " . that is truly the most valuable thing i have .


Now THIS is .....







I agree with your every word ...what you just laid out here is ....emotional Vulnerability  at it's core ...

I envision you as Ryan Gosling's character in Crazy Stupid Love .... Player finds Love for the 1st time in his life... and he needs help!! Loved that movie ! 










But how many women "put out" for you - hoping to win you - that is my question? Do you feel you've broken







's or did you purposely ONLY sleep with unemotional sex hounds who just wanted Screwed & left ?? It's a serious question. 

As a woman ....I would not give a man that part of myself UNTIL this sweet loving vulnerability (on his behalf) was in full force... just like that movie... she was the girl he couldn't take down, she wasn't jumping to get into his pants...... she wanted more, she tested him.... they connected all night talking deeply /laughing - an emotional side he never shared with another in his life & still they didn't have sex ... the connection came before. 

When sex comes too "easy"....lacking the emotional/this vulnerable state you described above.....wanting to be attached to your lover / sharing those deepest darkest most embarrassing secrets / a feeling of mutual trust.... how utterly important .... without this.... .it is just an ACT...just SEX..and as you say.... of little value. 

You've made a fine point here .... that plays into just why I feel as strongly as I do.


----------



## stoney1215

SimplyAmorous said:


> Player written all over that statement. You must have had alot of Cows giving free milk over the years - I bet you're an ALPHA male who didn't have to work to get them unbuttoning your pants... chicks lined up / banging & doing what comes your way.... am I right?
> 
> But as you learned - this didn't satisfy something deeper ... like the rest of your post here...
> 
> 
> 
> Now THIS is .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with your every word ...what you just laid out here is ....emotional Vulnerability  at it's core ...
> 
> I envision you as Ryan Gosling's character in Crazy Stupid Love .... Player finds Love for the 1st time in his life... and he needs help!! Loved that movie !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But how many women "put out" for you - hoping to win you - that is my question? Do you feel you've broken
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 's or did you purposely ONLY sleep with unemotional sex hounds who just wanted Screwed & left ?? It's a serious question.
> 
> As a woman ....I would not give a man that part of myself UNTIL this sweet loving vulnerability (on his behalf) was in full force... just like that movie... she was the girl he couldn't take down, she wasn't jumping to get into his pants...... she wanted more, she tested him.... they connected all night talking deeply /laughing - an emotional side he never shared with another in his life & still they didn't have sex ... the connection came before.
> 
> When sex comes too "easy"....lacking the emotional/this vulnerable state you described above.....wanting to be attached to your lover / sharing those deepest darkest most embarrassing secrets / a feeling of mutual trust.... how utterly important .... without this.... .it is just an ACT...just SEX..and as you say.... of little value.
> 
> You've made a fine point here .... that plays into just why I feel as strongly as I do.



i am not and have not ever been a player . i have only had sex with 1 woman prior to my wife . i had 1 gf from 16 - 20 then was frustrated by women who wanted to have sex with me but thought they should make me wait so i would respect them . it accomplished the opposite . i lost respect for a woman who would let a mans respect for her depend on a calendar and not on who she is . 

i have been with a woman who makes me want to be a better man ,person ,father , and partner for 16 years . i am 100% faithful to my wife and could not even imagine a scenario where i would be unfaithful . i have given myself to my wife not during or because of sex . i did it during and because of the strength , support ,acceptance , loyalty , devotion , and love that she has given me . i gave her me because i am the most valuable thing that i could give to her . 

we had sex on our first date because she wanted to have sex with me and i her . we told each other our sexual history and she had more sexual partners than i did . she did not need my approval of her , she had her own approval . she respected herself enough to not waste her time on anyone who did not respect her for who she was . we had kids together after 1 year and got married after 8 . 2 weeks before we got married she told me all of her secrets . she gave me the real her that night . and i finally did the same . 

i was raised by a single mom who i thought was the most amazing woman in the world . i had the privilege of being able to talk to my mother when ever i wanted , about what ever i wanted . she was always honest with me even if what she told me was not so good to hear . the only thing i could not talk to my mother about was sex . 

she told me intimate details of her life . she told me things about her that she never told anyone else . she bared her sould to me . but when it came to sex all she ever said to me was wear condoms . and this from a woman who had whips , hand cuffs , and a cat-o-nine tail hanging on her headboard and walls . this from a woman who had 4 kids with 3 different men and many relationships in my older years . it always was strange to me and bothered me that she could give every detail of her life , but she could not talk to me about something as simple as sex .

i dont believe that sex means anything other than the pleasure i get from having sex , and the pleasure i give to a woman that i have sex with . i believe that sex is something that should be used first for your own enjoyment , and second for your partners enjoyment . and lastly as a way to show and reaffirm your physical desire and attraction to your partner . 

99.9% of the people on this planet have sex . biology demands that we have sex . women want to have sex just as much as men . it is the one thing that every mamal and almost every species on the planet have in common . how could it be so common and be so valuable at the same time . there is only 1 of my wife on this planet . she is more rare than gold or platinum . she is what is truly valuable .


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## missymrs80

forevermemorable said:


> I believe with all my heart that being homosexual is not innate. I believe with all my heart that God has never created anyone homosexual or with a "gay" gene. There is no proof...and I have studied this, but our media says its true, therefore it must be true. The homosexual is that way by choice. Just as much as someone who lies is a liar by choice or someone who lust is by choice. "But you are comparing homosexuality with bad things," you might say. I am comparing homosexuality with other sins that God has condemned in the Bible.
> 
> 
> 
> Let me enlighten you about this. Lets take a look at the pervert who lusts over little children. "That's gross, disgusting, and immoral," you might say. I agree! But, this person is not acting out his impulses...he just enjoys getting off on little children (sorry to be graphic, but I need to drive my point here). Okay, this pervert is not hurting anyone...he is keeping it all to himself, confined in his own mind. Just like the homosexual, this guy who is lusting after little children is not hurting anyone. "But eventually he will act out his impulses," you might say. Perhaps...not guarantee.
> 
> We live in a society that says, "If it makes you feel good, then go for it." And this has allowed all sorts of perversion into our cultural. Hey, if raping makes you feel good, then go for it. If murdering makes you feel good, then go for it. Etc. Etc. Etc. "But that's really stretching the truth," you would say. I don't think so, because we excuse these people at trial claim that they have a "disorder" or that it is not their problem, it was a result of their upbringing, etc. etc. There is no real justice and often times they are let off the hook or get minimal time (Caylee Anthony). I guarantee you that the victim's family would have it otherwise.
> 
> The way I believe that God views homosexuality is a sin, just like any other sin. There is ample amounts of Scripture to prove it and there is no loose interpretation about it. The only loose interpretation comes from those who would twist the Scripture to have it read or believe what they want it to be. God is not mocked and God's truth still stands. I do not judge the homosexual...I just believe in what God has made mention about it. Let me share with you and see if there is a way you can look at the passage another way. I will use the King James Version. And these are only 4 passages in Scripture among many others, but these ones are very clear in what they say...
> 
> 1) Leviticus 18:22, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
> 
> 2) Leviticus 20:13, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination:"
> 
> 3) Romans 1:26-27, "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."
> 
> 4) 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." The "abusers of themselves with mankind" is speaking of homosexuality
> 
> If you want to read more about this topic and the Biblical belief, you can go here:
> Homosexuality: The Christian Perspective | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site
> 
> 
> 
> I did not follow that link you provided, but I can give you my own view and belief from what I have read and studied in the Scriptures and from going to Bible College. Jesus never once talked about masturbation in the Scriptures! Never, never, never! Jesus spoke about looking on a women to lust for her, which is wrong, but he never made anything clear about this topic. Again, I really do not have a dogmatic view about whether the actual act itself it wrong or not. I have actually masturbated as a kid without any lustful thought towards someone...it was more of a release for me.
> 
> In closing, a lot of what I have talked about will not resonate with you. My words will be empty and futile, unless you believe. Only then will you know the truth and that truth will set you free. What does that mean to be "set free?" It means to be set free from a life of bondage and sin. It means to be set free of a false way of thinking. It means that you will know with utter certainty that when you breathe your last breath here on earth, you will be in the presence of Jesus in heaven. The is what it means to be set free. Its what faith is all about. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).



Why would anyone CHOOSE to be gay? I never chose to be straight, i just am.


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## stoney1215

SimplyAmorous said:


> Player written all over that statement. You must have had alot of Cows giving free milk over the years - I bet you're an ALPHA male who didn't have to work to get them unbuttoning your pants... chicks lined up / banging & doing what comes your way.... am I right?
> 
> But as you learned - this didn't satisfy something deeper ... like the rest of your post here...
> 
> 
> 
> Now THIS is .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with your every word ...what you just laid out here is ....emotional Vulnerability  at it's core ...
> 
> I envision you as Ryan Gosling's character in Crazy Stupid Love .... Player finds Love for the 1st time in his life... and he needs help!! Loved that movie !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But how many women "put out" for you - hoping to win you - that is my question? Do you feel you've broken
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 's or did you purposely ONLY sleep with unemotional sex hounds who just wanted Screwed & left ?? It's a serious question.
> 
> As a woman ....I would not give a man that part of myself UNTIL this sweet loving vulnerability (on his behalf) was in full force... just like that movie... she was the girl he couldn't take down, she wasn't jumping to get into his pants...... she wanted more, she tested him.... they connected all night talking deeply /laughing - an emotional side he never shared with another in his life & still they didn't have sex ... the connection came before.
> 
> When sex comes too "easy"....lacking the emotional/this vulnerable state you described above.....wanting to be attached to your lover / sharing those deepest darkest most embarrassing secrets / a feeling of mutual trust.... how utterly important .... without this.... .it is just an ACT...just SEX..and as you say.... of little value.
> 
> You've made a fine point here .... that plays into just why I feel as strongly as I do.




women are the ones that sex comes easily to . women do not need to work to get a man to have sex with her . most women only need ask the nearest guy to have sex . its so easy for women to have sex that they dont even have to ask . they get offered . by your logic that should make sex have no value to women . and it does not .. women do not believe when a man has sex with her he is giving her something valuable ? why not ? i man giving sex has no value but him giving himself does to a woman . a woman giving her sexually to a man is very valuable to a woman and her giving herself to a man is also valuable to her . seems hypocritical to me ... what do you think ?


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## stoney1215

missymrs80 said:


> Why would anyone CHOOSE to be gay? I never chose to be straight, i just am.



you are absolutely 100% wrong about there not being homosexuality in nature . the list of species that have shown homosexual behavior is very long . a little research or even just opening your eyes could give you the correct information . 

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from the bible , and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. 

When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Now I will go wait by a stone pile for an honest christian to stop by.... I could be there a while, probably an eternity!

i can assume that you follow the laws of lividicus . how do you handle these situations.


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## stoney1215

SimplyAmorous said:


> Very familiar ~ author Lee Strobel ... I once had a Poster here so annoyed with my views.... he started a thread called "*the Simply Amorous challenge*"... we went rounds, he was rather rude in his delivery (I didn't mind)...but others did....he got himself warned, a thread locked... then banned - because of it.
> 
> He ended up deleting his original thread (bummer) -he was starting to get soft & open up, a little vulnerable, then the next morning it went Poof... so I started a new one (below).... .. anyway.... the same question YOU are asking me - he asked... or I explained ... Post #28 ...the types of Hermeneutic books I've read....
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/politi...rothead-why-delete-button-sa-challenge-2.html
> 
> What is funny about Parrothead is this.... he started out seriously annoyed with me, wanted to prove me wrong.. pound me into the ground with his theology...and by the end of our communications (3 threads in all- after that one was locked he started another)...He was telling me I was a christian!!! Now if that doesn't take the cake !!



what i can never understand is how people who believe in god . one and only one true god . claim that people of different religions have a different god than they do . IE. muslims and christians . 

how can they not understand that if there really is a god and only one god . that god is all powerful and all knowing and created everything , that he would be smart enough to know that people from different parts of the world , from different times in history , different education levels , and different choices available would not think or believe the same things or the same ways . knowing this he would create different forms of religions so the word of god would appeal to different people , of different times , different places , and different education . seems to me that most of the people who believe there is only one god spend alot of time telling other they have the wrong god . which is impossible if they believe there is only 1.


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## Broken at 20

Are you the parrot guy? Stoney? 

By the way, if your views conincide with the West Boro Baptist Church, you should go there and sit in on a sermon. Topeka Kansas. Ask them about when they picketed a certain high school a couple years ago. A high school they called "Jew Valley North Seniors." Told me about a very hot place I'll be visiting when I kick the bucket.
I wonder if they remember me...I gave them quite a good reason. 



But let's not get involved in the gay debate. Because I have feeling I'll upset a conservative mod...

But SA, I am curious, do your daughter's friends go for guys that you don't approve of? 
Like the football player that cheated on his last girlfriend with his current girlfriend? 
Or the guy that looks like he does some type of hard drugs?

How do you handle that?


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## stoney1215

forevermemorable said:


> Actually, I beg to differ about reason not formulated in my beliefs, understands, and perception of God. Simple logic and deductive reasoning proves to me that God is who He says He is. Have you heard of the book, "The Case for Christ?" An awesome book about reasoning and disproving God through simple logic on every aspect of our educational system. If you do not have a copy, pick one up. In fact, I would be more then happy to mail you a copy.
> 
> Something interesting happened today with my kids. A neighborhood girl (age 8), who goes to public school was hanging out with my kids. They have hung out before and I have seen signs of trouble with this little girl. Her parents are really non-combative and quiet folk. So today, when my kids (ages 10 & 6) were hanging out with her, she said three different times, "Go suck your D-I-C-K." This was said not as a proposition but as an insult. I mean really...age 8! And this girl pointed to her private area and mentioned that that was what it was (Well, not necessary hers, but getting the point across to my son). This is the first time my kids have been introduced to that word.
> 
> I have actually made mention to my kids about a year ago about certain profanity words we do not say (i.e. the "s" word, "a" word, and I may or may not have mentioned the "f" word). Of course, I actually said the word straight out, so my kids would know what the words are. I did not make mention of the "d" word...it did not cross my mind. So I guess I will have another talk with them about this. I have found nothing but foul, screwed up kids come out of the public school system. My public school days were the worse days of my life. All I see is kids using any kind of language and talking about sexual things and even doing sexual things at such early ages...unacceptable! And that kid of behavior will not be tolerated with my children. So, my kids will never be allowed to hang around this 8 year old girl and I will be talking with her parents to let them know why.
> 
> In fact my son, when he was in preschool (before homeschooling days) and what actually set my wife and I into pursuing the home schooling route, he came home with such an attitude...disrespectful to us...his demeanor was totally different... defiant...this is preschool mind you. One time he was mad at his mother and said the "F" word at her three times. Now, we don't use that language in our house and the language is not used at the church we go to. That leaves only one place...the preschool. Turns out, there was a couple of kids there in preschool using that language and teaching my son really bad habits about hurting others. One time I went to pick my son up and another kid was ramming his stomach into my son and I asked my son what he was doing with the other kid and he said, "We are touch pee-pees." That was the last straw and I went to the principal of the school and told her what had been happening and that I was pulling my kid out for good. Of course, she gave me the BS line of kid's exploring each other and learning. Of course, she was more concerned of the funding that would be lost as a result of my son's withdrawal. Never the less, the home school route entered our family and has been that was for that past 7 years and we wouldn't trade it in for anything this world has to offer.




what was it that was interesting that happened ? was it that your kids were exposed to the real world and did not have the ability to understand or deal with it ? or was it that your reaction to their exposure was to take them out of the real world instead of teaching them how to deal with it ? 

you blame the school for what they were exposed to . when the reality is their parents chose to not teach them the social skills to deal with this type of situation . you are supposed to teach your children right from wrong . what is acceptable and what is not . what they can say and what they can not . instead you chose to ignore it and they learned from someone who did not share your values . 

if you do not teach your children your values someone else will . when that happens dont point fingers except at the mirror .


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Well Stoney, you sure blew me out of the water with your story, not at all what I expected. My apologies  .... I still believe what I said would hold true for the gifted "Player" though. 



> *Stoney1215 said*: she told me intimate details of her life . she told me things about her that she never told anyone else . she bared her soul to me . but when it came to sex all she ever said to me was wear condoms . and this from a woman who had whips , hand cuffs , and a cat-o-nine tail hanging on her headboard and walls . this from a woman who had 4 kids with 3 different men and many relationships in my older years . it always was strange to me and bothered me that she could give every detail of her life , but she could not talk to me about something as simple as sex .


 I don't know. Sounds like she really loved sex and got herself around....how she felt about her lifestyle.. who knows. Was she married to these 3 men she had 4 kids to? If not, Maybe she didn't want to open up that can of worms with you or try to explain those things hanging on her wall. ?? 

My mother was pretty open with me too...at least about the emotional aspect....Maybe THIS will help you understand ME.... her story was... after the divorce... she ALLOWED herself to be USED by men, she specifically liked one of these guys who came to work on the house, he was younger... then he started bringing his friends around... she got used, and thrown away...she never blamed them, she blamed herself......it even caused her a nervous break down - which spiraled my life -into the hands of a step Mom I didn't want to live with...and I lost my Mother... her self esteem plummeted, she ran off with an Alcoholic, what a mess she made of her life... how very sad. Sex was a part of this. 

So men who Play just for pleasure...was not something I was up for, I vowed at a very young age - only someone worthy would get me in bed, I wanted REAL love & nothing less...

I do not look upon sex the way you do...it is more than just pleasure to me, I want the whole damn package, and If I can't have it, he ain't getting it. With the man I married.... I could have given myself to him early on.. but I didn't. He respected me MORE for that (complete opposite of your views on this).... and when I broke up for a short time, he didn't have to worry I was banging someone else. 

It was more than just pleasure to my mother, but it sure wasn't for those men!! Call me *VERY sensitive* in this area, that is fine....I'll take that.... I just don't see this in the same light as yourself and I have no desire to change my views - cause frankly .....if I did, I'd likely be a SL** - because truth is ....










So I'll just be a SL** for 1 man, and be emotionally , vulnerably and romantically entangled with him. As it should be. 



> women are the ones that sex comes easily to . women do not need to work to get a man to have sex with her . most women only need ask the nearest guy to have sex . its so easy for women to have sex that they dont even have to ask .


 You are very right about this....it does come EASY... even the Players who used my Mother -made some comment about me.... I was only 9 yrs old... how I'd be beating them off.... Yeah, I had alot of flirting coming my way in my youth... funny how I knew what a bunch of







it was... 

So much that when I met my BF at 15/husband today, I made a big deal about him being "different"... which I liked...cause he wasn't flirting up my ass...but seemed genuinely interested in more than that... why he ultimately won my







....


----------



## stoney1215

Broken at 20 said:


> Are you the parrot guy? Stoney?
> 
> By the way, if your views conincide with the West Boro Baptist Church, you should go there and sit in on a sermon. Topeka Kansas. Ask them about when they picketed a certain high school a couple years ago. A high school they called "Jew Valley North Seniors." Told me about a very hot place I'll be visiting when I kick the bucket.
> I wonder if they remember me...I gave them quite a good reason.
> 
> 
> 
> But let's not get involved in the gay debate. Because I have feeling I'll upset a conservative mod...
> 
> But SA, I am curious, do your daughter's friends go for guys that you don't approve of?
> Like the football player that cheated on his last girlfriend with his current girlfriend?
> Or the guy that looks like he does some type of hard drugs?
> 
> How do you handle that?




i do not have any idea who the parrot guy is . obviously you have misunderstood , or misread what my posts have said . i am not religious , and do not believe in god . i am very liberal and very much believe that people should be allowed to do what they want to do as long as it does not effect someone else , and all parties are consensual . i am almost nearly impossible to upset from a debate . 

as far as my daughters friends go i do not pay attention to most of their boyfriends so i could not tell you what kind of guys they are attracted to . 

as for my own daughters i believe that it is their decision who they are attracted to . i taught them what kind of standards i think they should have tell them when i think they have not met those standards . but make their own decisions . just because a kid cheated on his girlfriend does not mean he will do it to every other girlfriend . it just means he made a bad decision . thats what kids do . i taught my daughter to judge people based on their own experience with them , but also be wary of their past choices . 

what exactly does someone who does hard drugs look like ? do they look like the stock brokers who do coke ? the conservative talk radio host who does oxycontin ? the lead singer of a rock band like creed , who happens to be a devout christian ? the guy in the motorcycle club who proudly wears his colors that is a cop ? or are you talking about the football player who has long hair , tattos down his arms , a nose ring , and drives a motorcycle ? 


i do not judge people by the way they look and taught my daughters the same . didnt your mother teach you not to judge a book by its cover ? 

now tell me what do you teach your children ?


----------



## Ikaika

You know SA, I wish my parents would have been more like you... my parents were devoid of providing me with anything other than my basic physical needs. Sex was something I had to explore on my own. I had way too many partners of both genders (yes I said it and yet I am 100% heterosexual) and all it did was giving me more emptiness rather than true gratification (sure there was a physical gratification, but no emotional gratification). I got my freak on, but it was nothing compared to what I have now. Why couldn't you have been my mom :'(

I had to spent my teens and twenties chasing ghost and trying to find my way and of course my loving wife to discover what you put down on paper. Thanks... I am going to print it out. My sons need to hear this especially now that my oldest is 13. 

Thank you.


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## SimplyAmorous

Broken at 20 said:


> Are you the parrot guy? Stoney?


 Stoney is clearly NOT Parrothead, he is not religious -in this way - I think we'd have alot in common. 

I see he already answered that before I clicked "post". 



> But SA, I am curious, do your daughter's friends go for guys that you don't approve of?
> Like the football player that cheated on his last girlfriend with his current girlfriend?
> Or the guy that looks like he does some type of hard drugs?
> 
> How do you handle that?


My daughter is only 9 yrs old at this time. I am only there to listen and guide, ultimately our sons & daughters are going to DO what they want to do.... we can't lock them up in their rooms.... when *the WILL* wants what it wants...... it FINDS a way. Every parent should be so wise. 

I don't shield my children , I want them to see the hard realities of BAD choices ... whether it be Drugs, dating a guy with bad character (cheated on his last GF), liars... it is very difficult today to find an honest person -- like Billy Joels's Honesty 

.. how sad it is , this is why when someone is humble enough to admit their faults before me, I don't jump on them... because far more HIDE them, cover, bury... then find themselves weaseling out of things in all their relationships .. So not cool.


----------



## stoney1215

SimplyAmorous said:


> Well Stoney, you sure blew me out of the water with your story, not at all what I expected. My apologies  .... I still believe what I said would hold true for the gifted "Player" though.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know. Sounds like she really loved sex and got herself around....how she felt about her lifestyle.. who knows. Was she married to these 3 men she had 4 kids to? If not, Maybe she didn't want to open up that can of worms with you or try to explain those things hanging on her wall. ??
> 
> My mother was pretty open with me too...at least about the emotional aspect....Maybe THIS will help you understand ME.... her story was... after the divorce... she ALLOWED herself to be USED by men, she specifically liked one of these guys who came to work on the house, he was younger... then he started bringing his friends around... she got used, and thrown away...she never blamed them, she blamed herself......it even caused her a nervous break down - which spiraled my life -into the hands of a step Mom I didn't want to live with...and I lost my Mother... her self esteem plummeted, she ran off with an Alcoholic, what a mess she made of her life... how very sad. Sex was a part of this.
> 
> So men who Play just for pleasure...was not something I was up for, I vowed at a very young age - only someone worthy would get me in bed, I wanted REAL love & nothing less...
> 
> I do not look upon sex the way you do...it is more than just pleasure to me, I want the whole damn package, and If I can't have it, he ain't getting it. With the man I married.... I could have given myself to him early on.. but I didn't. He respected me MORE for that (complete opposite of your views on this).... and when I broke up for a short time, he didn't have to worry I was banging someone else.
> 
> It was more than just pleasure to my mother, but it sure wasn't for those men!! Call me *VERY sensitive* in this area, that is fine....I'll take that.... I just don't see this in the same light as yourself and I have no desire to change my views - cause frankly .....if I did, I'd likely be a SL** - because truth is ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I'll just be a SL** for 1 man, and be emotionally , vulnerably and romantically entangled with him. As it should be.
> 
> You are very right about this....it does come EASY... even the Players who used my Mother -made some comment about me.... I was only 9 yrs old... how I'd be beating them off.... Yeah, I had alot of flirting coming my way in my youth... funny how I knew what a bunch of
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it was...
> 
> So much that when I met my BF at 15/husband today, I made a big deal about him being "different"... which I liked...cause he wasn't flirting up my ass...but seemed genuinely interested in more than that... why he ultimately won my
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....



your mother allowed men to use her which is very sad . i cant help but wonder if things would have been different if she had been the one using them for sex . think samantha jones from sex in the city . do you think she would have had a break down .

i have taught my daughters to only have sex with someone they want to have sex with . only when they want to have sex . only how they want to have sex , and only because they want to have sex . if they follow that they will never feel used , never feel ashamed , never feel regret , and never feel like they were tricked . 

im curious , when you would meet a guy and you wanted to have sex with him but did not because you thought you had to wait . did you not think you were able to make a good decision sexually ? how did you determine how long was long enough ? and how does it make you feel knowing your husbands would have lost respect for you if you had sex with him 3 weeks earlier ? did he really think that would have changed what kind of person you were ? 

my mother was molested as a child , dropped out of the 8th grade , physically abused by her husband ( my father ) , and got herself out of that marriage by herself , she never believed in marriage after that . at the age of 18 i am very sure my mother knew that i knew why she had those things on her headboard and wall . by that time she knew i walked into her room to find a guy a few years older than me hand cuffed naked to her bed . but she was unable to talk to me about even the most generic sexual topics . 

she had no problem talking with my younger sisters about sex , but could not with me . unfortunately she died without ever explaining to me why . i am very pro woman , i believe that women have every right , to enjoy sex , and should not ever be ashamed of or embarrassed about having sex . i believe that women who should define their own self worth , women should feel any man who bases their respect of her on her sexual preference is beneath her , and let him know as much . i believe women are strong , intelligent , and more than able to make their own choices . 

hopefully i raised my daughters to believe what i believe about women .


----------



## stoney1215

with a handle like simplyamorous , i have no doubt we would have alot in common . at least alot of the fun stuff any way . 

my views are generally pretty simple . as long as it doesnt effect anyone else negatively , and all are consenting adults , you should be able to do what you want and it is no one elses business . 

i believe in honesty , loyalty , and the golden rule . i believe people should be free to decide for themselves what is right and wrong as long as it does not harm other people . when it effects the lives of others negatively than what ever has a negative effect on the least amount of people should be the rule . 

i believe in being responsible for your actions . i believe in karma . if you put good things out into the world good things will find their way back . if you put out negative things negative will come back . i believe in helping those who help themselves . 

i especially believe that sex is awesome , fun , amazing , exciting , great , and should be enjoyed responsibly by everyone who gives their consent . i believe that they only way to know if you like something is to try it . and i will try almost anything once . i believe that it is far worse to wonder what if that it is to have a bad experience . i believe that even when you try something and you do not like it the experiences are rarely bad . i believe that as great as sex is it is even better when you get to share it with someone you love . 

i believe nothing can make people happier than a baby laughing . and nothing can make people unhappier than negativity . and last but not least i believe that there is nothing worse than hair in your mouth . bald is beautiful.


----------



## stoney1215

simplyamorous ........ players are exactly that . players . they are playing a game . unfortunately for women and men , were taught the exact opposite views about sex . men are taught that more is better and they are supposed to have sex with lots of women . women are taught that less is better and they are not supposed to have sex with lots of men . 

of course for every woman that a man has sex with . there is a woman that has sex with a man . so it kind of equals out ?


----------



## joe kidd

Mine is 12. I'm going to jet her mother have that talk with her. If I did it would be along the lines of " If you love a boy you won't have sex with him, because I would be forced to kill him. You don't want to be responsible for the death of your true love do you?"


----------



## Dollystanford

all I can say is it's pretty hard to 'teach' them anything - they will do what they'll do regardless, just be there to pick up the pieces yo


----------



## stoney1215

joe kidd said:


> Mine is 12. I'm going to jet her mother have that talk with her. If I did it would be along the lines of " If you love a boy you won't have sex with him, because I would be forced to kill him. You don't want to be responsible for the death of your true love do you?"




i really hope that was meant as a joke ...... that in a nutshell is how men **** up women . we teach our daughters how wrong , bad , and dirty sex is . how much daddy will be disappointed in his little angel . and then wonder why women withold sex , or will not try new things , and the biggest complaint , once we got married she dont want sex any more . how could they when we pound it into them from the time they are little girls to not have sex .

how about telling her what guys are really like , and how to not be pressured into making bad decisions . how about teaching them how to make their own choice for themselves about when to have sex . and how about teaching them how to be responsible for themselves sexually , and how to tell the difference between love and lies . and most of all how about teaching our daughters that their dad is proud of them and supports them and is there for them and he is not disappointed in her .


----------



## RandomDude

Well, the last thing I'm going to do is to preach the traditional idea that sex is wrong/dirty/whatever, knowing that my daughter came from two incredibly rebellious and stubborn parents - and is already being a smart ass to her mum heh

Try to forbid it, she'll more then likely want to try it. As such, I try to use the action/consequence approach instead of a right/wrong approach. But I'm still going to beat the crap out of any idiot who touches my daughter... hehe


----------



## SimplyAmorous

stoney1215 said:


> your mother allowed men to use her which is very sad . i cant help but wonder if things would have been different if she had been the one using them for sex . think samantha jones from sex in the city . do you think she would have had a break down .


 I never set my eyes on "Sex & the City"... so not familiar with this woman & her persona lifestyle. 



> i have taught my daughters to only have sex with someone they want to have sex with . only when they want to have sex . only how they want to have sex , and only because they want to have sex . if they follow that they will never feel used , never feel ashamed , never feel regret , and never feel like they were tricked .


 If she has feelings for him...or it catches her by surprise & they surface...while he doesn't feel the same in return..... or moves on to some other chick... I call







on this way of thinking. If , however, she has learned how to SHUT her emotions OFF and NOT feel, separating them.... then fine, she can get away with this. Something happens when it goes from "just sex" to "Making love". 

Personally, I would find the sexual memories haunting -if I loved someone & lost them..I would regret that I opened myself to a man that threw me away. 



> im curious , when you would meet a guy and you wanted to have sex with him but did not because you thought you had to wait . did you not think you were able to make a good decision sexually ? how did you determine how long was long enough ? and how does it make you feel knowing your husbands would have lost respect for you if you had sex with him 3 weeks earlier ? did he really think that would have changed what kind of person you were ?


 My husband wouldn't have lost respect for me if I had intercourse with him years earlier... our feelings were very deep.....I knew if I became pregnant, he'd marry me in a heartbeat...Birth control doesn't always work ~ so what then with all these casual sex partners we are so proud of having ... Morning after pill .....count on the man to do the right thing & marry me ~ for the kid (love may not have even been considered at that point -great way to start a marraige)... or life as a struggling single Mom. 

Sorry but none of those choices would be my 1st -I had a better plan -it just required some self restraint. If you read my original opener, it's not like we didn't enjoy ourselves... and like I said, we had something new & exciting to bring to our Wedding night. 

Also I've never met a man thinking.... "I WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH HIM"... my brain didn't work like that back then....Look , you are a man - obviously a horny one who PRAISES casual sex from the roof tops.... free for all -so long as you & she enjoy it - Have at it ! Eat, drink and Fvck. 

My Mindset was NOT like this at all... call me a "Hopeless Romantic" ....I held out hope for my Fairy tale .... can't a young girl dream? I knew what I wanted... I wanted a FAMILY... a GOOD man who was gonna stand beside me, not cheat on me, who wasn't the type to discard women .... It was all about finding the "Love of my life". 

Any man who was looking for just a "good time" ~ would not be working for me. To each their own. I was considering my future as I managed my sexual self -in my youth. When you haven't had intercourse, you really don't know what the hell you are missing anyway. But you sure do look forward to it on that "glorious day" when all has been carefully worked upon in a relationship - with a man who loves you & wanted you entirely -looking to your future ... hand in hand.









So... if... when... I seen that CUTE guy.... sure I'd be thinking "I WANT TO GET TO KNOW HIM, will be LIKE me.. could HE be the one"... commitment was in MY head, not "Oh he's be good in bed". 



> my mother was molested as a child , dropped out of the 8th grade , physically abused by her husband ( my father ) , and got herself out of that marriage by herself , she never believed in marriage after that .


 Your mother had a very very rough life....and because of her experiences, she gave up on LOVE & the idea of marriage ever again... she closed her door to believing in that sort of happiness. Trying to find it in other outlets.. as many do. People can screw us up mentally & emotionally to where dreams DIE...I'm sure your Mother never intended her life to go this direction in her youth.... Sex is very powerful , to treat it as though it isn't -and can't touch us.... I just could never do that. 

It has the ability to stir the most pleasurable highs, emotions to set us on a mountain top....and yet the ragings of the deepest jealousies man has ever known to the cruelest form of abuse ....from sexual abuse to a child....to ripping our heart's out after you've shared vulnerably with another ...that is the height of rejection -at is deepest level... if married, worthy of divorce..is anything more powerful than this act ? It has the awesome power to create Life in it's one hand... and the ugliness & fury of the deepest betrayal another can feel -when one goes outside of marriage & gives to another... 




> i am very pro woman , i believe that women have every right , to enjoy sex , and should not ever be ashamed of or embarrassed about having sex.


 And you feel those who don't hold your "casual sex" views are NOT Pro-woman? You think your views will set them up better for their futures....their families ?

I am little biased here... so you'll have to excuse me, but what I call the GOOD MEN (the NON players)....generally do NOT want to marry a woman who has slept with umteen c0cks, and gives it up sucking the Frat boys at college parties. You're right... she can have the highest self esteem there is... Use those BOYS for her own pleasure.....they'll be lovin' her every second - let her glory shine.....but she will be limiting her prospects for being marriage material -in some men's eyes....I did not say all. You can throw your own statistics on that ... 

You can call me Old school, old fashioned, Living in the dark ages, archaic, conservative, you can even add religious if you want (though I'll reject that some)...as I don't teach FEAR .... just where the consequences of our choices may lead...how it can play out for her future. 



> women should feel any man who bases their respect of her on her sexual preference is beneath her , and let him know as much . i believe women are strong , intelligent , and more than able to make their own choices .


 And some of these women do just that....when they come across a man who frowns on her past... they call him insecure... they mock his Di**... anything to throw a rock at another's said "preferences" in a mate...when they are rejected. We all have a right to feel as strongly as we do in what we want in a future husband or wife. The Past matters to some, others it does not at all... Hot issue for sure >> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...why-i-say-persons-sexual-history-matters.html

I guess like everything else in life.. .Compatibility is key... sounds it would be best for casual sex enjoyers to marry those like minded. No reason to worry about my views ...it's not like this is going to become a movement threatening women & their expressing their sexuality these days... That tide has already been washed in the ocean.........It's to the point now.... MEN are seeing less & less reasons to get married at all....what does he get out of it.... that he doesn't already have??


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *Random Dude said* : As such, I try to use the *action*/*consequence* approach instead of a *right*/*wrong* approach.


Couldn't agree more with you Random Dude







..... As this poster said here >>


> *Broken at 20 said*: And nice to know there are mothers out there that tell their daughters what to expect in the real world. And you do it a religious, but also a modern world view. You realize they both have flaws, and use the one or the other to form a more realistic and practical approach to how to approach sexuality in a modern world.
> Gives me some hope.


Surely Flaws on both sides of the aisle...the more extreme, the more potential for damage. 

A look at my own past... me & husband both sat under Holy shaming FEAR tactics in the pew to control the lusts of our youth... you didn't hear how beautiful sex was... just that it was SINFUL... LUST coming from the enemy... jump on the merry go round of "putting the flesh down" to appease some Big man in the sky. Songs of Solomon was not talked about, heck that would be too erotic ~ Preacher would get shamed by some old biddies. But plenty on the...."better to gouge your







out & throw them away...(Matt 5:29) ....and ..."Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, *sensuality* .......and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God"." (Gal 5:19) = hellfire. Very Lovely when your hormones are raging. Can't we have any fun. Answer >> NO!!! 

Then on the other end... the world's way of dealing with it is equally as repulsive....size each other up at the bar, and go bang in the backseat - no how about the bathroom stall - it's quicker!! Do they even know each others names [email protected]#$ Talked to this one man... was a swinger earlier in life... they'd go to these Sex houses & these men would be lining up while this Fat lady would suck each one of them off. Good chance she'd be getting some Throat cancer living like that. 

I've tried to notice some of the extremes... 

*1)* ..... Reading on MarriageBed.org .... newly married man posts his story... a hurting desperate husband crying out -what to do now....I shed a tear reading .....he met his wife in college, they had passionate sex for a time.... deeply in love, expressing their bodies... then they found God >> "Got Saved"....The guilt began... so they vowed to do the "right thing" - NO MORE SEX, no touching the Hot spots either as this is also Lust and "sexual" ..... 

They went 2 yrs like this somehow (I can't imagine it [email protected]#$%) ....then married.... he was ecstatic, ready to start back up where they left off..... THEN....on their wedding night, she told him she feels NOTHING...she didn't care if she ever had sex again....all passion GONE..... It was 6 months later he did that post... desperate for help, crushed, alone - it was never meant to be like this. 

All the advice he gets is : PRAY, go see a Christian Counselor. I'm thinking to myself -wanting to scream at the computer screen... can't you see YOU DID THIS TO YOURSELVES....she repressed her sexuality SO deeply ~ shutting herself off cold turkey - that now she needs serious therapy to get back in touch with it. How utterly heartbreaking ....what a way to start a marriage. Sexual repression is a scourge that destroys happiness, robs intimacy/ erotic expression. 

*2)* .... Then at the other extreme... I watched Dr. Drews Sex Addiction Program ... listened to Penny Flame (porn star), some drummer in a famous band...lifestyles filled with meaningless sex...trivial & routine, stripped of privacy & romance... these people found themselves deeply broken... they didn't have guilt (like the repressed)....but they've lost the emotion intended to go with the act...a desensitization has taken place - they just wanted to FEEL again...experience Love again in the sexual. They too needed intense therapy to overcome. 

A "measure" of both of these extremes can take a foothold... robbing us/ our kids of something beautiful that was meant to be shared with someone we







. 

**** It seems Stoney1215 is most disturbed by what Repression does to women... whereas I am bothered by both sides....just trying to sort out that "delicate balance" somehow..

Each will decide what works for them.


----------



## stoney1215

SimplyAmorous said:


> I never set my eyes on "Sex & the City"... so not familiar with this woman & her persona lifestyle.
> 
> If she has feelings for him...or it catches her by surprise & they surface...while he doesn't feel the same in return..... or moves on to some other chick... I call
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> on this way of thinking. If , however, she has learned how to SHUT her emotions OFF and NOT feel, separating them.... then fine, she can get away with this. Something happens when it goes from "just sex" to "Making love".
> 
> Personally, I would find the sexual memories haunting -if I loved someone and lost them..I would regret that I opened myself to a man that threw me away.
> 
> My husband wouldn't have lost respect for me if I had intercourse with him years earlier... our feelings were very deep.....I knew if I became pregnant, he'd marry me in a heartbeat...Birth control doesn't always work ~ so what then with all these casual sex partners we are so proud of having ... Morning after pill .....count on the man to do the right thing & marry me ~ for the kid (love may not have even been considered at that point -great way to start a marraige)... or life as a struggling single Mom.
> 
> Sorry but none of those choices would be my 1st -I had a better plan -it just required some self restraint. If you read my original opener, it's not like we didn't enjoy ourselves... and like I said, we had something new & exciting to bring to our Wedding night.
> 
> Also I've never met a man thinking.... "I WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH HIM"... my brain didn't work like that back then....Look , you are a man - obviously a horny one who PRAISES casual sex from the roof tops.... free for all -so long as you & she enjoy it - Have at it ! Eat, drink and Fvck.
> 
> My Mindset was NOT like this at all... call me a "Hopeless Romantic" ....I held out hope for my Fairy tale .... can't a young girl dream? I knew what I wanted... I wanted a FAMILY... a GOOD man who was gonna stand beside me, not cheat on me, who wasn't the type to discard women .... It was all about finding the "Love of my life".
> 
> Any man who was looking for just a "good time" ~ would not be working for me. To each their own. I was considering my future as I managed my sexual self -in my youth. When you haven't had intercourse, you really don't know what the hell you are missing anyway. But you sure do look forward to it on that "glorious day" when all has been carefully worked upon in a relationship - with a man who loves you & wanted you entirely -looking to that future with you ... hand in hand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So... if... when... I seen that CUTE guy.... sure I'd be thinking "I WANT TO GET TO KNOW HIM, will be LIKE me.. could HE be the one"... commitment was in MY head, not Fvcking.
> 
> Your mother had a very very rough life....and because of her experiences, she gave up on LOVE & the idea of marriage, she closed her door to believing in that sort of happiness. She obviously tried to find it in other places.. Just goes to show how PEOPLE can screw us up mentally & emotionally to where dreams DIE...as I'm sure your Mother never intended her life to go this direction in her youth.... Sex is very powerful , to treat it as though it isn't -and can't touch us.... I just could never do that.
> 
> It has the ability to stir the most pleasurable highs, emotions to set us on a mountain top....and yet the ragings of the deepest jealousies man has ever known to the cruelest form of abuse ....from sexual abuse to a child....to breaking up after you've shared vulnerably with another ...that is the height of rejection -at is deepest level... if married, worthy of divorce..is anything more powerful than this act ? It has the awesome power to create Life in it's one hand... and the ugliness and fury of the deepest betrayal another can feel -when one goes outside of marriage & gives to another...
> 
> 
> And you feel those who don't hold your "casual sex" views are NOT Pro-woman? You think your views will set them up better for their futures....their families ?
> 
> I am little biased here... so you'll have to excuse me, but what I call the GOOD MEN (the NON players)....generally do NOT want to marry a woman who has slept with umteen c0cks, and gives it up sucking the Frat boys at college parties. You're right... she can have the highest self esteem there is... Use those BOYS for her own pleasure.....they'll be lovin' her every second - let her glory shine.....but she will be limiting her prospects for being marriage material -in some men's eyes....I did not say all. You can throw your own statistics on that ...
> 
> You can call me Old school, old fashioned, Living in the dark ages, archaic, conservative, you can even add religious if you want (though I'll reject that some)...as I don't teach FEAR .... just where the consequences of our choices may lead...how it can play out for her future.
> 
> And some of these women do just that....when they come across a man who judges this, they call him insecure... they mock his Di**... anything to throw a rock at another's said "preferences" in a mate...when they are rejected. We all have a right to feel as strongly as we do in what we want in a future husband or wife.
> 
> I guess like everything else in life.. .Compatibility is key... sounds it would be best for casual sex enjoyers to marry those like minded. No reason to worry about my little views...it's not like this is going to become a movement threatening women & their expressing their sexuality these days... That tide has already been washed in the ocean.........It's to the point now.... MEN will see virtually no reason to marry a woman at all... what does he get out of it.... that he doesn't already have??



since i have only had 4 sexual partners in my 38 years , i can say that i have not had much casual sex . i am neither a supporter of , nor detractor of , casual sex . what i am is a supporter and advocate for having sex because you choose to , of your own free will , without regard for the negative hypocrisy of our holier than thou society . which generally has a massively negative impact on women . 

i do not view women as victims of sex . you talk about being used by men , and thrown away by men like a woman has no control over what she does , and should be held blameless when she makes bad choices in men . it is hard to be a victim when you only have sex when , and with who you choose . not because you think he loves you , or because you think it will make him stay , or because you think that he feels the same way you feel . if these are your reasons for having sex you set yourself up for disappointment and regret , and you make yourself into a victim .


how could a man be a " good man " if he judges women not on the kind of person she is , but on her sexual experiences ? and how can a woman think a man who judges her by sexual experience and not by the kind of person she is be a man that would make a good partner ? we all have the right to our preference in a mate , i think your first preference should be a good person , not a sexually inexperienced person . 


men in general do not want to get married . i myself never felt the desire , or need to get married . what do i get from marriage that i do not already have is the right question . not just for men , but for women too . men get to have sex , and women get to be married ? that seems like a dumb reason for both men and women . my wife did not get anything additional from me when we got married . getting married has not changed one single thing in the relationship my wife and i have . my wife thought it would , and she was disappointed when it did not . the only thing marriage does actually change is your name , and some of your legal rights .


my views are definitely pro woman . i believe women are equal to men and should be treated as such . i believe that women and men should not be judged differently for doing the same things . i believe that the double standard is a tool used to demean , disrespect , and control women . and it should be fought against . especially by women . 


i respect your beliefs , and your views , and absolutely believe they are right for you and would never dream of telling you that you should change them . for you to live by my beliefs , and views , except maybe on religion , would not benefit you and would probably hurt you . the best thing about our different views is that we can have an adult , civil , respectful , open , and honest conversation about them with each other . that tells me that even though we may view things differently , we have both ended up as good people .


----------



## stoney1215

Dollystanford said:


> all I can say is it's pretty hard to 'teach' them anything - they will do what they'll do regardless, just be there to pick up the pieces yo




it is not hard to teach them , but it does seem like it is extremely hard for them to learn .......... i guess that is why people come up with sayings like " you can lead a horse to water , but cant make him drink "


----------



## SimplyAmorous

stoney1215 said:


> i do not view women as victims of sex . you talk about being used by men , and thrown away by men like a woman has no control over what she does , and should be held blameless when she makes bad choices in men.


 Oh no, I don't see women blameless at all ~ in reality though... they still have more to loose in casual sex.... 

My words here >>


> *Also she MUST take responsibility for those choices. Personal Responsibility is HUGE in our family -I will not allow my TEENS to see themselves as "victims" - if they had a voice & a choice in the matter*.


**** Reasons they get hurt more so ...

*1. * Women want Marriage overwhelmingly over the man, they want the ring, the romance, the kids, the white picket fence - generally. You are right, the majority of men don't give a rat's ass...just give them the milk. 

*2*. If a surprise pregnancy occurs, whose situation carries more weight, more heart wrenching, more pain, more loss of freedom ... or the difficult choice of abortion .

*3.* 9 times out of 10..women are looking for







....even if marrying isn't on her radar just yet. Men, again are more interested in the pleasure screw due to their raging Test levels (10 times higher) ~ us women can not even comprehend, so they act with their DI** 9 times out of 10. 

*4. *Women are the ones who will be labeled "Easy" by some of the very men who took them for a ride....unfortunate as it is..it still happens. 

*5. * Women are the ones who risk their future "fertility" to STD's, an abortion can also cause an infection - leading to Pelvic inflammatory disease. 



> we all have the right to our preference in a mate , i think your first preference should be a good person , not a sexually inexperienced person.


 Each has their own definition of Good. 

Take me for instance... I specifically WANTED, even prayed for a guy who was inexperienced ~ loved the idea of all that sweet vulnerable 1st time awkwardness - sharing our 1sts together ...*This IS my GOOD* - so long as he has a sex drive .... A little LUST is a must !  Touchy Feely is very fulfilling in a boyfriend. 

But really....why in the world would I want to be with some Casanova whose been around the block with numerous chicks...as one guy so point blank expressed how he felt about his sexual conquests...It's just another "notch on his belt" . Excuse me, but that attitude ..... sickening. But yet... I appreciate his honesty - none the less. 



> men in general do not want to get married . i myself never felt the desire , or need to get married . what do i get from marriage that i do not already have is the right question . not just for men , but for women too . men get to have sex , and women get to be married ? that seems like a dumb reason for both men and women . my wife did not get anything additional from me when we got married . getting married has not changed one single thing in the relationship my wife and i have . my wife thought it would , and she was disappointed when it did not . the only thing marriage does actually change is your name , and some of your legal rights .


Stoney, you are SO un*romantic*...Geeze....could you pick up that "loving feeling" just a little.... I see marriage as so much more... 

I've looked at both sides of this too, even though I praise "reason"....want to keep my feet on the ground...I don't need the religious connotations - I guess one can't shake the Romantic in me though.... this article resonates with me >>  It's Just A Piece Of Paper



> my views are definitely pro woman . i believe women are equal to men and should be treated as such . i believe that women and men should not be judged differently for doing the same things . i believe that the double standard is a tool used to demean , disrespect , and control women . and it should be fought against . especially by women .


 Here is the thing about this "*Double standard*" .... One can not stop the *Laws of attraction*... the Majority of women are magnetically attracted to CONFIDENT assertive men who go after what they want, also the more women that WANT THEM, the more attractive they become...they may have other characteristics that are awful... but still this gets them in the door. Men, on the other hand, they are primarily attracted to physical beauty..... and the majority ENJOY a little chase, so the easy women fare lower on their scale many times..for something that MOVES such men.... especially if they are TOO EASY.... Now how do you change the biology in this ?? 

We can want & clammer for "Equality" all day here .... but the Laws of attraction... Frankly.... they don't give a damn. 

You have much female company on this forum who share your disdain for this Double Standard though. 



> i respect your beliefs , and your views , and absolutely believe they are right for you and would never dream of telling you that you should change them . for you to live by my beliefs , and views , except maybe on religion , would not benefit you and would probably hurt you .


 Well Stoney...that was a nice ending here...









I am happy you can see this.... these things would hurt me...at least I am smart enough to know this... so I have lived accordingly. 



> the best thing about our different views is that we can have an adult , civil , respectful , open , and honest conversation about them with each other . that tells me that even though we may view things differently , we have both ended up as good people .


Absolutely ... and for the record, I LOVE a little soft Porn ..... so I am not judging these people....I may not want to marry a porn star.....but I'll enjoy his craft .... Some may call me a Hypocrite for that, I don't know... that's another debate.


----------



## Gangland

WONDERFUL POST.

I think that it's very important to teach your daughter these very things. 

For one she's going into a world where other women, media, and other forces are telling her she should be as promiscous as her heart desires, and not to worry because her prince charming will be waiting for her when she settles.

She'll see it everywhere, had sex with 100 guys? you go girl, cut off a guys penis? You go girl, and you can always divorce your loyal husband for your Stella got her groove back divorce fantasy. You go girl.

For two as a parent (I'm not one yet) but the way I see it, the best gift you can give a child that shows that you love them, more than friendship, more than kisses and hugs, more than presents on xmas, is the preparation and ability to succeed in the real world as an adult. because when you're not always there for the other 60+ years of their life. That's what's going to matter.

That being said, my daughter will definutely know the score when it comes to sex and relationships. I agree whole heartedly when you say that you should show affection around her. The best way to teach is to model. Not to mention kids tend to feel more secure when they can see daddy still loves mommy and vice versa. regardless of if you get an "eww" here and there.

The problem when it comes to teaching your kids about sex I have found is that most kids think their parents don't understand, so they tend not to believe what you say. (even if they nod affirmatively.)

The key to getting around this is to have a solid reason why your telling them this. at can't just be "because I don't want you to.. or because I don't believe etc etc etc" It has to have a sound reason behind it. When my mother truly believed something and had a reason to believe it, it was a lot easier for me to fight peer pressure and whatever else.

As an example, I never smoked, not because my mother told me "I don't want you to smoke, or because I said so," but because she actually sat down and talked to me about why I shouldn't smoke for MY OWN sake. and she didn't use facts like "you'll die" she used things I cared about and showed me how I'd be crippiling myself in achieving them should I chose to smoke.

She told me, sports would be harder, chances are if I wanted a family I would die on them sooner, My SO would suffer in the last years of my life because of my own choice. etc.

I think it's very important what you plan to do with your daughter and how open you are about explaining your reasoning why. Thumbs up.


----------



## costa200

stoney1215 said:


> since i have only had 4 sexual partners in my 38 years , i can say that i have not had much casual sex . i am neither a supporter of , nor detractor of , casual sex . what i am is a supporter and advocate for having sex because you choose to , of your own free will , without regard for the negative hypocrisy of our holier than thou society . which generally has a massively negative impact on women .
> 
> i do not view women as victims of sex . you talk about being used by men , and thrown away by men like a woman has no control over what she does , and should be held blameless when she makes bad choices in men . it is hard to be a victim when you only have sex when , and with who you choose . not because you think he loves you , or because you think it will make him stay , or because you think that he feels the same way you feel . if these are your reasons for having sex you set yourself up for disappointment and regret , and you make yourself into a victim .
> 
> 
> how could a man be a " good man " if he judges women not on the kind of person she is , but on her sexual experiences ? and how can a woman think a man who judges her by sexual experience and not by the kind of person she is be a man that would make a good partner ? we all have the right to our preference in a mate , i think your first preference should be a good person , not a sexually inexperienced person .
> 
> 
> men in general do not want to get married . i myself never felt the desire , or need to get married . what do i get from marriage that i do not already have is the right question . not just for men , but for women too . men get to have sex , and women get to be married ? that seems like a dumb reason for both men and women . my wife did not get anything additional from me when we got married . getting married has not changed one single thing in the relationship my wife and i have . my wife thought it would , and she was disappointed when it did not . the only thing marriage does actually change is your name , and some of your legal rights .
> 
> 
> my views are definitely pro woman . i believe women are equal to men and should be treated as such . i believe that women and men should not be judged differently for doing the same things . i believe that the double standard is a tool used to demean , disrespect , and control women . and it should be fought against . especially by women .
> 
> 
> i respect your beliefs , and your views , and absolutely believe they are right for you and would never dream of telling you that you should change them . for you to live by my beliefs , and views , except maybe on religion , would not benefit you and would probably hurt you . the best thing about our different views is that we can have an adult , civil , respectful , open , and honest conversation about them with each other . that tells me that even though we may view things differently , we have both ended up as good people .


Personally i think you're in some sort of trip about how things should be versus how they are. Women and men are not the same. Never were and never will, unless biological evolution renders sexual dimorphism a thing of the past.

Women can effectively have sex with anyone they want. This not an issue anymore in the western societies. And you think that people judging them for it are wrong. You talk about hypocrisy and holier than thou considerations. 

But i would argue that there are plenty of reasons why a woman who has sex whenever she wants and accumulates dozens of lovers is not a desirable partner. 

Number of sexual partners have been demonstrated to statistically matter for the success of a marriage (not even going into the STD scenario, which cannot be set aside even with complete use of condoms). And the practical result of that is that there are plenty of men who will not engage in serious relationships with women with that background.

That is wrong on their part you say? Why? 
If there is a certain trait that can negatively affect the future of the relationship why shouldn't it be taken into account? Women select their partners for all sorts of traits, and never fear to reject a potential partner over said traits. Men have the same right. 

And here we come to the cusp of it. Both men and women search for certain traits. But the traits both sexes try to find are not the same. 

Women search for what their biology tells them to search. Strong reliable partners, with financial resources to help with the offspring and the ability to protect them (hence the nice skinny geeky looking supermarket cashier having such a horrible time trying to find a mate).

This means that they will try to get the best partner they can. Sometimes having to settle for less than their ideal because of their own shortcomings (looks, level of eduction, personality, mother related abilities and others i'll talk about in a bit).

So, basically women get to select from the array of suitors that present themselves. And from those suitors only some will be interested in engaging in a relationship. The others will be trying to get sexual intercourse going and then leave.

For all effects this means that a promiscuous woman will just have sex "whenever she wants it" and suitors will always present themselves. Women, unless really ugly, can always have sex. Sex is never a true limitant for a woman. She only has to be willing and there will always be a man to give it to her. 

Amount of sex is a limitant for men though. A majority of men can't get all the sex they want and all the partners they want.

And this is important how?

Well, this all comes into play when a man tries to find a partner to raise a family. What is he searching?

Given that women's sexual potential is unlimited, when a man chooses a woman he is looking for the traits i mentioned (looks, level of eduction, personality, mother related abilities...) and, a very important characteristic, the ability to control her sexual urges.

This is related quite obviously to the probability of faithfulness. A woman who has shown remarkable restrain will be much more likely to hold her fidelity. This is part of every "how to get a man" handbook. 

Every such book advises women to make the man "work for it". Being that when men get sex easily they lose interest just as easily. This has been know since ever in the process of courtship.

And so, where does this leave the typical "sex in the city" 21st woman who thinks that she can just have sex with hundreds without a hint of consequence?

Well, just cruise around this board and similar. Plenty of them end up finding out that high quality guy they dreamed about and now want to be with backs down as soon as he learns she was the town bike. 

Then she gets some sisterhood love and people telling her he is a caveman jerk and that he should have such a standard etc. 

Maybe she feels a little better and moves on, possibly going on to try and find one of those guys who doesn't care (who are a minority and often have their own serious issues and excess baggage). This, however doesn't erase the fact that she lost a possibility to hold on to a possibly quality mate. 

And why is he a quality mate? Because he didn't fear to reject a woman. He doesn't mind losing to get one who meets the standards. Basically, he isn't a loser who will accept just any woman because he can't get better. 

Is all this "morally wrong"? Depends on who is answering. Unfortunately biology doesn't give a damn. Men will continue to chose females who don't sleep around at will because it is biologically advantageous for the spreading of their genes. 

Whenever a woman increases her lovers numbers she is removing part of her attraction potential. It's not that she won't find sexual partners. It's just that they will leave her and not be around to participate in her life.

But isn't this terribly unfair? Why aren't men judged on these standards? Well, because a man's attraction potential actually works the complete opposite of women. His ability to attract females is PART of his attraction potential. 

You can see this effect working when a guy gets a girlfriend and suddenly plenty of his previously indifferent female "friends" suddenly become interested. His attraction potential is heightened. 

The simple fact is that women not only don't care how many women he beded in the past, they actually prefer men who can bed other women. It's biologically advantageous for them to be with an attractive male and mix her genes with his (his offspring will be more attractive and successful in the genetic game).

This all ends up in the famous "double-standard". But people mistakenly attribute this to "tradition". It's not cultural. It's biological. It's born from the fact that men and women are inherently different in their mating strategies.

You want to change this? Fine, you only have to defeat biology and the fact that as soon as you try to "morally" guide your genetic strategy you will be putting yourself at a disadvantage and will likely get wiped from the gene pool as an evolutionary dead end.

Female sexual restrain is a trait who is valued transculturally. And you may want to lurk around some female forums and listen to their complains about the hardships of finding a man who commits. Listen to the stories of who are the women who complain about this. Almost all of them has one thing in common. They almost without exception had a huge number of partners. They spent their 20s in bars and now at their 30s they suddenly realize men don't actually want more than sex with them, and then settle down with other women. This is not an accident. 

As much as some feminists jump up and down, men simply refuse to be limited in their own standards about what a wife is. To complain about this is on the same level of men complaining about women wanting guys with money... Do you actually think they'll give a damn and start going with guys who are paupers?

Women get to choose who are the men they want to have sex with, men choose who are the women they want to share their resources with. 

This means that your daughters may have sex when they want, with who they want and how they want, but they won't be able to force a guy to be ok with it. In fact it is quite possibly they will be limiting their own choices to the losers who don't have alternatives. 


Personally i find that a woman that has had only me as a sexual partner telling me how special i am surely beats a woman who has had 100s telling me the same. In the first case i'm really special. I'm the one guy who she chose to be with for the first time. There can hardly be a bigger gift a woman can give to a man. I'm totally special. And there is a high probability i will believe her when she says it. 

If she had another lover before me, then i'm something like 1/2 special. Two lovers? 1/3 special. 10 lovers? 1/11 special? 100 lovers? 1/101 special?

The emotional connection and relevance i would throw in one situation and another are completely different. And i know that i'm in the majority here. 

Men express open disgust for loose women. And knowing this i'm not about to make it easy for my daughter to be in that group.


----------



## Broken at 20

SimplyAmorous, I must know:

How do I find a 20 year old version of you?!?


----------



## that_girl

You wait for her to grow up a few years. :rofl:

Nah, I'm sure they exist. Stay away from bars and clubs though.


----------



## Ikaika

If I had a daughter... stay away from a younger version of me... no good, no good, no good. I simply think burning the early chapters of my life would do the planet good even if it does leave a bit of a carbon footprint.


----------



## stoney1215

costa200 said:


> Personally i think you're in some sort of trip about how things should be versus how they are. Women and men are not the same. Never were and never will, unless biological evolution renders sexual dimorphism a thing of the past.
> 
> Women can effectively have sex with anyone they want. This not an issue anymore in the western societies. And you think that people judging them for it are wrong. You talk about hypocrisy and holier than thou considerations.
> 
> But i would argue that there are plenty of reasons why a woman who has sex whenever she wants and accumulates dozens of lovers is not a desirable partner.
> 
> Number of sexual partners have been demonstrated to statistically matter for the success of a marriage (not even going into the STD scenario, which cannot be set aside even with complete use of condoms). And the practical result of that is that there are plenty of men who will not engage in serious relationships with women with that background.
> 
> That is wrong on their part you say? Why?
> If there is a certain trait that can negatively affect the future of the relationship why shouldn't it be taken into account? Women select their partners for all sorts of traits, and never fear to reject a potential partner over said traits. Men have the same right.
> 
> And here we come to the cusp of it. Both men and women search for certain traits. But the traits both sexes try to find are not the same.
> 
> Women search for what their biology tells them to search. Strong reliable partners, with financial resources to help with the offspring and the ability to protect them (hence the nice skinny geeky looking supermarket cashier having such a horrible time trying to find a mate).
> 
> This means that they will try to get the best partner they can. Sometimes having to settle for less than their ideal because of their own shortcomings (looks, level of eduction, personality, mother related abilities and others i'll talk about in a bit).
> 
> So, basically women get to select from the array of suitors that present themselves. And from those suitors only some will be interested in engaging in a relationship. The others will be trying to get sexual intercourse going and then leave.
> 
> For all effects this means that a promiscuous woman will just have sex "whenever she wants it" and suitors will always present themselves. Women, unless really ugly, can always have sex. Sex is never a true limitant for a woman. She only has to be willing and there will always be a man to give it to her.
> 
> Amount of sex is a limitant for men though. A majority of men can't get all the sex they want and all the partners they want.
> 
> And this is important how?
> 
> Well, this all comes into play when a man tries to find a partner to raise a family. What is he searching?
> 
> Given that women's sexual potential is unlimited, when a man chooses a woman he is looking for the traits i mentioned (looks, level of eduction, personality, mother related abilities...) and, a very important characteristic, the ability to control her sexual urges.
> 
> This is related quite obviously to the probability of faithfulness. A woman who has shown remarkable restrain will be much more likely to hold her fidelity. This is part of every "how to get a man" handbook.
> 
> Every such book advises women to make the man "work for it". Being that when men get sex easily they lose interest just as easily. This has been know since ever in the process of courtship.
> 
> And so, where does this leave the typical "sex in the city" 21st woman who thinks that she can just have sex with hundreds without a hint of consequence?
> 
> Well, just cruise around this board and similar. Plenty of them end up finding out that high quality guy they dreamed about and now want to be with backs down as soon as he learns she was the town bike.
> 
> Then she gets some sisterhood love and people telling her he is a caveman jerk and that he should have such a standard etc.
> 
> Maybe she feels a little better and moves on, possibly going on to try and find one of those guys who doesn't care (who are a minority and often have their own serious issues and excess baggage). This, however doesn't erase the fact that she lost a possibility to hold on to a possibly quality mate.
> 
> And why is he a quality mate? Because he didn't fear to reject a woman. He doesn't mind losing to get one who meets the standards. Basically, he isn't a loser who will accept just any woman because he can't get better.
> 
> Is all this "morally wrong"? Depends on who is answering. Unfortunately biology doesn't give a damn. Men will continue to chose females who don't sleep around at will because it is biologically advantageous for the spreading of their genes.
> 
> Whenever a woman increases her lovers numbers she is removing part of her attraction potential. It's not that she won't find sexual partners. It's just that they will leave her and not be around to participate in her life.
> 
> But isn't this terribly unfair? Why aren't men judged on these standards? Well, because a man's attraction potential actually works the complete opposite of women. His ability to attract females is PART of his attraction potential.
> 
> You can see this effect working when a guy gets a girlfriend and suddenly plenty of his previously indifferent female "friends" suddenly become interested. His attraction potential is heightened.
> 
> The simple fact is that women not only don't care how many women he beded in the past, they actually prefer men who can bed other women. It's biologically advantageous for them to be with an attractive male and mix her genes with his (his offspring will be more attractive and successful in the genetic game).
> 
> This all ends up in the famous "double-standard". But people mistakenly attribute this to "tradition". It's not cultural. It's biological. It's born from the fact that men and women are inherently different in their mating strategies.
> 
> You want to change this? Fine, you only have to defeat biology and the fact that as soon as you try to "morally" guide your genetic strategy you will be putting yourself at a disadvantage and will likely get wiped from the gene pool as an evolutionary dead end.
> 
> Female sexual restrain is a trait who is valued transculturally. And you may want to lurk around some female forums and listen to their complains about the hardships of finding a man who commits. Listen to the stories of who are the women who complain about this. Almost all of them has one thing in common. They almost without exception had a huge number of partners. They spent their 20s in bars and now at their 30s they suddenly realize men don't actually want more than sex with them, and then settle down with other women. This is not an accident.
> 
> As much as some feminists jump up and down, men simply refuse to be limited in their own standards about what a wife is. To complain about this is on the same level of men complaining about women wanting guys with money... Do you actually think they'll give a damn and start going with guys who are paupers?
> 
> Women get to choose who are the men they want to have sex with, men choose who are the women they want to share their resources with.
> 
> This means that your daughters may have sex when they want, with who they want and how they want, but they won't be able to force a guy to be ok with it. In fact it is quite possibly they will be limiting their own choices to the losers who don't have alternatives.
> 
> 
> Personally i find that a woman that has had only me as a sexual partner telling me how special i am surely beats a woman who has had 100s telling me the same. In the first case i'm really special. I'm the one guy who she chose to be with for the first time. There can hardly be a bigger gift a woman can give to a man. I'm totally special. And there is a high probability i will believe her when she says it.
> 
> If she had another lover before me, then i'm something like 1/2 special. Two lovers? 1/3 special. 10 lovers? 1/11 special? 100 lovers? 1/101 special?
> 
> The emotional connection and relevance i would throw in one situation and another are completely different. And i know that i'm in the majority here.
> 
> Men express open disgust for loose women. And knowing this i'm not about to make it easy for my daughter to be in that group.



i am not on a trip about how things are vs. how they should be . i am flat out stating that i think things are wrong and need to be changed . it is every persons right to choose a mate based on what ever criteria they choose . i have no issue with that at all . my point is that women have been trained to feel shame , and guilt for their sexual choices . this leads them to have low self esteem , and feel a lack of value , and regret if their sexual choices do not agree with what they were taught . women let themselves be disrespected by , and be put down by men , and devalue themselves because they are doing what is dictated by their basic biology . women choose to ignore their biology out of fear that has been taught to them by a patriarchal religious society . 

women and men have the same chances of getting an STD . i am not positive but based on the way men have homosexual sex men may even have a greater chance of getting them . sexual promiscuity should diminish a mans value much more than a womans . 

the very notion that a woman who controls her sexual urges is a woman who will be more likely to be faithfull is laughable at best . using that logic a man has absolutely no chance of being faithful . when women choose not to have sex with someone because of the risks of the judgement of society , not because they do or do not want to that lessens their character not strengthen it . 

you suggest men have no choice when you say there is no limit for women sexually . that would also say that men have no chance of being faithful , or controlling their sexual urges . the very idea of a man working for it is misleading , and insulting . working for it merely means waiting . it does not mean showing what kind of a person he is , or what kind of character or integrity he has . it means showing how patient he is . a mans character , integrity , and honest show what kind of person he is . this does not change because of the amount of time he waits to have sex . how could you possibly think that anyone who judges someone based solely on their number of sexual partners , which is almost always a lie , is a good choice for a mate ? the quality of a person has less to do with sexual partners than it does with integrity , honesty , reliability , kindness , and how they treat others . 

basic mathematics say that the average number of sexual partners has to be equal for men and women . this teels us that either : 1. men lie to inflate their number . 2. women lie to deflate their number . 3. both men and women lie to each other . i personally believe the answer is number 3. only because i am fairly good at basic math . 

your specialness decreases with each sexual partner a woman has ??????? 

i was addressing each point as i read it then i got to this point . i thought your response was serious . i had no idea you were joking until i got to that point ......... thank you for the laugh i definitely needed it today.......


----------



## joe kidd

stoney1215 said:


> i really hope that was meant as a joke ...... that in a nutshell is how men **** up women . we teach our daughters how wrong , bad , and dirty sex is . how much daddy will be disappointed in his little angel . and then wonder why women withold sex , or will not try new things , and the biggest complaint , once we got married she dont want sex any more . how could they when we pound it into them from the time they are little girls to not have sex .
> 
> how about telling her what guys are really like , and how to not be pressured into making bad decisions . how about teaching them how to make their own choice for themselves about when to have sex . and how about teaching them how to be responsible for themselves sexually , and how to tell the difference between love and lies . and most of all how about teaching our daughters that their dad is proud of them and supports them and is there for them and he is not disappointed in her .


Just put me on ignore.


----------



## stoney1215

SimplyAmorous said:


> Oh no, I don't see women blameless at all ~ in reality though... they still have more to loose in casual sex....
> 
> My words here >>
> 
> **** Reasons they get hurt more so ...
> 
> *1. * Women want Marriage overwhelmingly over the man, they want the ring, the romance, the kids, the white picket fence - generally. You are right, the majority of men don't give a rat's ass...just give them the milk.
> 
> *2*. If a surprise pregnancy occurs, whose situation carries more weight, more heart wrenching, more pain, more loss of freedom ... or the difficult choice of abortion .
> 
> *3.* 9 times out of 10..women are looking for
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....even if marrying isn't on her radar just yet. Men, again are more interested in the pleasure screw due to their raging Test levels (10 times higher) ~ us women can not even comprehend, so they act with their DI** 9 times out of 10.
> 
> *4. *Women are the ones who will be labeled "Easy" by some of the very men who took them for a ride....unfortunate as it is..it still happens.
> 
> *5. * Women are the ones who risk their future "fertility" to STD's, an abortion can also cause an infection - leading to Pelvic inflammatory disease.
> 
> Each has their own definition of Good.
> 
> Take me for instance... I specifically WANTED, even prayed for a guy who was inexperienced ~ loved the idea of all that sweet vulnerable 1st time awkwardness - sharing our 1sts together ...*This IS my GOOD* - so long as he has a sex drive .... A little LUST is a must !  Touchy Feely is very fulfilling in a boyfriend.
> 
> But really....why in the world would I want to be with some Casanova whose been around the block with numerous chicks...as one guy so point blank expressed how he felt about his sexual conquests...It's just another "notch on his belt" . Excuse me, but that attitude ..... sickening. But yet... I appreciate his honesty - none the less.
> 
> 
> 
> Stoney, you are SO un*romantic*...Geeze....could you pick up that "loving feeling" just a little.... I see marriage as so much more...
> 
> I've looked at both sides of this too, even though I praise "reason"....want to keep my feet on the ground...I don't need the religious connotations - I guess one can't shake the Romantic in me though.... this article resonates with me >>  It's Just A Piece Of Paper
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the thing about this "*Double standard*" .... One can not stop the *Laws of attraction*... the Majority of women are magnetically attracted to CONFIDENT assertive men who go after what they want, also the more women that WANT THEM, the more attractive they become...they may have other characteristics that are awful... but still this gets them in the door. Men, on the other hand, they are primarily attracted to physical beauty..... and the majority ENJOY a little chase, so the easy women fare lower on their scale many times..for something that MOVES such men.... especially if they are TOO EASY.... Now how do you change the biology in this ??
> 
> We can want & clammer for "Equality" all day here .... but the Laws of attraction... Frankly.... they don't give a damn.
> 
> You have much female company on this forum who share your disdain for this Double Standard though.
> 
> Well Stoney...that was a nice ending here...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am happy you can see this.... these things would hurt me...at least I am smart enough to know this... so I have lived accordingly.
> 
> 
> Absolutely ... and for the record, I LOVE a little soft Porn ..... so I am not judging these people....I may not want to marry a porn star.....but I'll enjoy his craft .... Some may call me a Hypocrite for that, I don't know... that's another debate.



the majority of men also want a partner , kids , stability , and love . you do not need to be married to have those things . 

a surprise pregnancy comes with everything except for the physical pain for men that it does for women . the exception being the men who are not the " good " ones we have been talking about ...

men are looking for love the same as women are . the difference is men still want to have sex while were looking for love . 

one of my main points is a woman should not find any man who would look down on them for having sex as an good option for a partner .

i will have to email the rest tomorow i am running short on time .....


----------



## costa200

stoney1215 said:


> i am not on a trip about how things are vs. how they should be . i am flat out stating that i think things are wrong and need to be changed .


Again, it's your opinion. You're trying to press your sense of morality over something that is transcultural and biologically motivated. It's one of those situations where you cannot win. But you are totally free to try. Everyone is totally free to exploit every reproductive strategy available. What i explained is that there are biological reasons why that strategy fails. 




> it is every persons right to choose a mate based on what ever criteria they choose . i have no issue with that at all . my point is that women have been trained to feel shame , and guilt for their sexual choices . this leads them to have low self esteem , and feel a lack of value , and regret if their sexual choices do not agree with what they were taught . women let themselves be disrespected by , and be put down by men , and devalue themselves because they are doing what is dictated by their basic biology . women choose to ignore their biology out of fear that has been taught to them by a patriarchal religious society .


Actually you have a totally skewed vision of what a woman's basic biology is. Female basic biology doesn't dictate that she roams through hundreds of partners. You've been fooled to think so due to some modern media. The fact is, most women don't actually want to bed hundreds of men. 

What you're saying is that almost everywhere in the world men managed to train women that they don't want to bed men by the dozens. 

That's a completely foolish notion of reality advanced by out of touch feminist thinkers. Young men would be more than happy to have willing females by the bucket loads. What you see is women educating other women that there are dangers doing it. Mothers tell their daughters that that path isn't rewarding in the long run. They know that its a road which will devalue them and will push them towards worse partners.







> women and men have the same chances of getting an STD .


You're wrong. If you want i can fetch the stats for it. Women are more likely to contract STDs thanks their very physiology. They have to receive secretions in their sexual tract and their mucosal cells are exposed during the sexual act. 



> i am not positive but based on the way men have homosexual sex men may even have a greater chance of getting them . sexual promiscuity should diminish a mans value much more than a womans .


See, this is the trip part. It doesn't. Women don't work that way and you won't be able to force them to. For a woman it is highly advantageous to be with a high attraction value male. It doesn't matter if he had tons of lovers. In fact it does matter. It increases his value.

Look at it in graphs:

This is how men evaluate women regarding looks:










Standard bell curve results as expected.

This is how women evalute men:










Take notice that what this means is that women will try to get 10% of the males. The highly attractive ones. The rest they will settle with for their resources. 

You spoke of a double standard. Here it is your way to solve it. Get rid of the "patriarchy". Convince women to choose only chaste men... Convince them to have their way of evaluate men to fit a normal bell curve. I won't hold my breath on that. 


They will want to get with the top 10% males and will not care if they have copulated with hundreds before them. See it here? This is how it is, as opposite to what it should be (in your mind).

This is biology in motion. Your morals are irrelevant. 




> the very notion that a woman who controls her sexual urges is a woman who will be more likely to be faithfull is laughable at best .


Why would you laugh? Are you really saying that a woman who marries a virgin is as likely to cheat as a woman who has had dozens of partners? Are you for real? Seriously? 

Lets look at marriages and how long they last in regards to number of sexual partners shall we? Lets look at how your laughs hold up to the data:











Still laughing? This basically kills your idea that number of sexual partners is irrelevant. Yes, that's right, those feminist sources supporting "sex in the city" way of life don't actually parade this do they?

Let's face it. Your grandfathers and their ancestors were right. There is wife material and there is sex-until-i-find-my-wife material. 




> using that logic a man has absolutely no chance of being faithful . when women choose not to have sex with someone because of the risks of the judgement of society , not because they do or do not want to that lessens their character not strengthen it .
> 
> you suggest men have no choice when you say there is no limit for women sexually . that would also say that men have no chance of being faithful , or controlling their sexual urges


As i said before, it doesn't matter if they control it or not. Women will not want virgins. That's it. Period. 

You seem to be not seeing that women's standards do as much for the double standard as men's do. You cant expect men to bend their standards while women maintain theirs. 

You called yourself "pro-woman", whatever that means. I would call you "anti-man". You want changes but you seem to be pushing it for these to happen only in one side. 

Will never happen and i explained why already. Women sexual restrain is advantageous for both the males and themselves. Men's sexual restrain was never a positive genetically selected trait. 

Blame nature if you want. But i'm not going to fight it just because you have a social agenda that intends to make women not "equal" to men, but "the same". There is a world of difference between the two notions. 



> the very idea of a man working for it is misleading , and insulting . working for it merely means waiting . it does not mean showing what kind of a person he is , or what kind of character or integrity he has . it means showing how patient he is . a mans character , integrity , and honest show what kind of person he is . this does not change because of the amount of time he waits to have sex . how could you possibly think that anyone who judges someone based solely on their number of sexual partners , which is almost always a lie , is a good choice for a mate ? the quality of a person has less to do with sexual partners than it does with integrity , honesty , reliability , kindness , and how they treat others .



Sorry, but that was plainly silly. By definition, people who wait and invest heavily into a relationship are much more likely to be really serious about it. And yes, it does show character and commitment. 

You speak of honesty and integrity and reliability. Do you think a guy who gets your girls into bed after a night of partying will have demonstrated his qualities in that field? Can you not see that is plainly obvious that a man takes time to show all these and that the wait for sex makes it possible for him to show them or not?

And more, after just having sex for a night worth of banter, will he even care? Will he form a connection with the woman? He probably won't. 

We are talking odds here. Do you want to make a poll directed at men and ask if they are more inclined to be with a woman who made them wait or not? 

Again, yes, i'm totally disregarding what you think men-women relationships should be and i'm working with what they are. I guess i'm not strong in "what if" scenarios, specially when it involves the happiness of my daughter. 



> basic mathematics say that the average number of sexual partners has to be equal for men and women . this teels us that either : 1. men lie to inflate their number . 2. women lie to deflate their number . 3. both men and women lie to each other . i personally believe the answer is number 3. only because i am fairly good at basic math .


Do you know what an average is? The comparison between men and women isn't really what you are searching for. What really matters is that a smaller number of men get a large number of women and that a small number of women have a large number of sexual partners. 

And this becomes relevant when you think that the small number of men who get lots of women are in demand and the small number of women who have many sexual partners are not considered by the overwhelming majority of men as fit to engage in a long term relationship. 

Again buddy, conflict between what it is and what you want it to be. 





> your specialness decreases with each sexual partner a woman has ???????
> 
> i was addressing each point as i read it then i got to this point . i thought your response was serious . i had no idea you were joking until i got to that point ......... thank you for the laugh i definitely needed it today.......


I really don't know what you are hinting at but i don't see anything funny about this notion. If you can't understand that a number one guy has reasons to feel great about himself while number 100 guy has a lot less, then i must really question what kind of guy you are. 

If i'm the first to climb the Everest i'm top of the world. If i'm number 100 i'm just one more. Is this a hard notion to grasp?


----------



## costa200

> men are looking for love the same as women are .


:lol:

Nah... You didn't just say that!!! Pfffffff... 

See a doctor and check your testosterone level dude, there is something not clicking there!

Many men are not seeking "love" at all! They just want to bust a nut. Don't believe me? Get out more!


----------



## Ikaika

costa200 said:


> :lol:
> 
> Nah... You didn't just say that!!! Pfffffff...
> 
> See a doctor and check your testosterone level dude, there is something not clicking there!
> 
> Many men are not seeking "love" at all! They just want to bust a nut. Don't believe me? Get out more!


Humans are far more complicated... We evolved as a tribal organism. We seek advantages, both male and female for tribal assimilation and maintaining as much.


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## Ikaika

Not trying to jack this thread but real love comes when we are willing to accept our partner (sexually) even when we realize their faults. And, we all have faults... So when you really love you are willing to accept the faults of your spouse.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

stoney1215 said:


> the majority of men also want a partner , kids , stability , and love . you do not need to be married to have those things .





> men are looking for love the same as women are . the difference is men still want to have sex while were looking for love .


 .....and drive many cars out of the station - enjoying that test driving while he's looking for the one he wants to own...even though he doesn't seem to care about the certificate of ownership. 



> one of my main points is a woman should not find any man who would look down on them for having sex as an good option for a partner .


 I couldn't ask for a more loving partner in this life.... and I feel as he does about emotionless/ commitmentless promiscuity... 



> *Costa200 said:* For a woman it is highly advantageous to be with a high attraction value male. It doesn't matter if he had tons of lovers. In fact it does matter. *It increases his value*.


 Oh Costa... When I read things like this, the heat is starting to rise :FIREdevil:.... my claws wanting to come out ....When others talk like this.... alot on that Alpha thread in the Men's clubhouse right now...how they put down the gentlemen who treats his gf like she matters the most in his world, this makes him foolish....weak...then on top of this - "User" men have higher value over the man who waits for Love. 

... We are not a bunch of toothless homely hillbillies by any means... a person's value is in the eye of the beholder -how they enrich our lives....For me, knowing a man didn't sleep around to raise his sex rank -but instead cared enough to wait for LOVE...some things in life are Priceless, this is one of those. Studies are interesting, but anything that would group my husband into a "lesser value" bucket - due to society's norms...well.... 

This is how I feel about such a study >>










I may agree with how you feel about women waiting (my reasons are for her best interests due to men's animalistic intentions) ... but I could never belittle the man who restrains his lusts for the love & intimacy of 1 special woman, as his *gift* to her...I praise such men as these.... how very rare a find in this world today. Some men *can't* get the booty... and some choose to pass on emotionless uncommitted EASY sex....there is a huge difference in that. 












> *Costa200 said*: Take notice that what this means is that women will try to get 10% of the males. The highly attractive ones. The rest they will settle with for their resources.
> 
> You spoke of a double standard. Here it is your way to solve it. Get rid of the "patriarchy". Convince women to choose only chaste men... Convince them to have their way of evaluate men to fit a normal bell curve. I won't hold my breath on that.
> 
> 
> They will want to get with the top 10% males and will not care if they have copulated with hundreds before them. See it here? This is how it is, as opposite to what it should be (in your mind).


 Again, some of us care, it may be a very small minority but we exist. I may have made a few mistakes in my life, but "settling" on a man.. this was never one of them. I also didn't marry him for his resources, he worked in a Grocery Store at the time, I made a little more than him even ~ we built everything hand in hand -with just our shared dreams & responsible living leading the way....This was us back then >> 

Even Though We Ain't Got Money - I'm so in love with ya honey, And everything will bring a chain of love. And in the morning when I rise, you bring a tear of joy to my eyes, And tell me everything is gonna be alright.  



> *Costa200 said*: If you can't understand that a number one guy has reasons to feel great about himself while number 100 guy has a lot less, then i must really question what kind of guy you are.
> 
> If i'm the first to climb the Everest i'm top of the world. If i'm number 100 i'm just one more. Is this a hard notion to grasp?


 So it's all about how the man feels special...

excuse the sarcasm but









..... what about the woman ...you think a virgin Bride is happy knowing she is his 100th lay? Come on now... Sure they attach to such men & love them dearly.... what choice do they have ~ since all men are horny dogs who can't keep it in their pants, it's expected behavior ... but for the woman who feels deeply ...restraining herself for







... it makes sense she'd also prefer "her man" felt similar in this, I do believe she would wipe his past -if she was able. In this way, the woman must settle -because the choice, her pickings are so scant in men. IF you asked every virgin Bride if they would have had their husband a former Playboy or him be her 1st... I believe I'd be right. 

The women who HAVE had many partners, of course they don't care. 



drerio said:


> Not trying to jack this thread but real love comes when we are willing to accept our partner (sexually) even when we realize their faults. And, we all have faults... So when you really love you are willing to accept the faults of your spouse.


 I so agree with you Drerio... we accept our spouses as they are, cause we sure ain't the end all ourselves sometimes, now are we !?


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## costa200

> Again, some of us care, it may be a small minority but we exist.
Click to expand...

Of course you do! The question is that statistics are based on big numbers. Quite honestly good women are a rarity and a man does well to search long and hard for them. The vice versa is obviously true also.



> So it's all about how the man feels special - what about the woman ...you think a woman who waits -would feel really special knowing she is his 100th lay? Come on now... To even suggest the women who did wait don't care at all about this -is very unreasonable.... in this way, they settle cause all men are dogs, so what can they do, but I surely don't feel they prefer this. Not those women- given a choice.


Some do care alright. On a rational level probably all do. Only that that part of our brain, the upper brain cortex doesn't control our attraction. Our limbic system is basically out of our conscient control. 

In this case males and females differ fundamentally. But personally i agree that women should care. It's only they often really don't. In fact i've actually seen women ridicularizing a friend of mine who was a virgin at 20. 

Pretty horrible episode that. Dude looked like he wanted the earth to open up and swallow him. In that moment i stepped down from my usually persona and tell them to their faces that he shouldn't be criticized for not wanting to soil himself with skanks (hinting i was talking about that particular group of women) if that wasn't his cup of tea. We then left the spot and left them just standing there. 

One of those "bros before hoes" moments i believe. I then went into coach mode and advised him never reveal that again with such type of group again. Save it for a real relationship.


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## stoney1215

costa200 said:


> :lol:
> 
> Nah... You didn't just say that!!! Pfffffff...
> 
> See a doctor and check your testosterone level dude, there is something not clicking there!
> 
> Many men are not seeking "love" at all! They just want to bust a nut. Don't believe me? Get out more!



if men are not looking for love then tell me , why is it that we usually get into long term monogamous relationships ? why is it that we get married ? why is it that we do these things even after we have " busted a nut " with these women ? 

90% of my friends are either married or in long term relationships .if you have friends take stock of their relationship status . if you do not have friends , maybe it is you who needs to get out more.....


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## stoney1215

costa200 said:


> Again, it's your opinion. You're trying to press your sense of morality over something that is transcultural and biologically motivated. It's one of those situations where you cannot win. But you are totally free to try. Everyone is totally free to exploit every reproductive strategy available. What i explained is that there are biological reasons why that strategy fails.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually you have a totally skewed vision of what a woman's basic biology is. Female basic biology doesn't dictate that she roams through hundreds of partners. You've been fooled to think so due to some modern media. The fact is, most women don't actually want to bed hundreds of men.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if women did not want to have multiple sexual partners than why do the majority of women have multiple sex partners ? and if it is biologically motivated then why is it that only about 3% of all mammals are monogamous ?
> 
> 
> What you're saying is that almost everywhere in the world men managed to train women that they don't want to bed men by the dozens.
> 
> That's a completely foolish notion of reality advanced by out of touch feminist thinkers. Young men would be more than happy to have willing females by the bucket loads. What you see is women educating other women that there are dangers doing it. Mothers tell their daughters that that path isn't rewarding in the long run. They know that its a road which will devalue them and will push them towards worse partners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if it was a foolish notion of reality then why is it that through out history women have had little or no rights ? why is it that even in this country women did not have the right to vote until the early 20th century ? why is it that women sstill do not earn as much as men for the same jobs ? why is it that the 3 major religions are all ruled by men ? the list goes on and on . ...
> 
> that would be foolish if it was young men who teach girls . girls are taught by their fathers and mothers , and all adult family members that girls who have alot of sex are ****s . they are taught that they have to say no if they want a guy to respect them . they are not taught by young at all . to say it is young men that teach girls is just plain wrong .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're wrong. If you want i can fetch the stats for it. Women are more likely to contract STDs thanks their very physiology. They have to receive secretions in their sexual tract and their mucosal cells are exposed during the sexual act.
> 
> 
> 
> See, this is the trip part. It doesn't. Women don't work that way and you won't be able to force them to. For a woman it is highly advantageous to be with a high attraction value male. It doesn't matter if he had tons of lovers. In fact it does matter. It increases his value.
> 
> Look at it in graphs:
> 
> This is how men evaluate women regarding looks:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Standard bell curve results as expected.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> all people are first attracted by looks . the first thing we have to judge anyone by is what looks good to us . that is only initial attraction . it is not what 90% of people would say is their number one priority in a mate .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is how women evalute men:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> society teaches us what we think makes desireable mates , not biology . any study will reflect what the society being studied values . in most western societies men are rated on financial stability . there is even a song that says so in the lyrics . " girls dont like boys , girls like cars and money " .
> 
> 
> 
> Take notice that what this means is that women will try to get 10% of the males. The highly attractive ones. The rest they will settle with for their resources.
> 
> 
> 
> You spoke of a double standard. Here it is your way to solve it. Get rid of the "patriarchy". Convince women to choose only chaste men... Convince them to have their way of evaluate men to fit a normal bell curve. I won't hold my breath on that.
> 
> 
> They will want to get with the top 10% males and will not care if they have copulated with hundreds before them. See it here? This is how it is, as opposite to what it should be (in your mind).
> 
> This is biology in motion. Your morals are irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> we are a judeo-christian society . historically morals have always been much more important than biology in choosing a mate . even now as we become a less religious society morals are still much more important than biology when choosing a mate . that is the whole basis of of why women are considered ****s for having numerous sex partners .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you laugh? Are you really saying that a woman who marries a virgin is as likely to cheat as a woman who has had dozens of partners? Are you for real? Seriously?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you said a the more sex partners a woman has had the more likely she is to be unfaithful . and the less she has had the less likely she is to be unfaithful . that is absolutely laughable , and ridiculous to even think . how likely a person is to remain faithful has nothing to do with number of past sexual partners . it has to do with a persons character , integrity , and respect . anyone who cheats on their partner shows a complete lack of character , integrity , and respect for their partner . PERIOD .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lets look at marriages and how long they last in regards to number of sexual partners shall we? Lets look at how your laughs hold up to the data:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> since there is absolutely no way to tell how many sexual partners anyone has had , and it is well known that men inflate their number of partners and women deflate their number of partners , any study conducted will not be accurate . also since half of all marriages end in divorce , with the number going up all the time , any study on that will also be inaccurate .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still laughing? This basically kills your idea that number of sexual partners is irrelevant. Yes, that's right, those feminist sources supporting "sex in the city" way of life don't actually parade this do they?
> 
> Let's face it. Your grandfathers and their ancestors were right. There is wife material and there is sex-until-i-find-my-wife material.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i am laughing at your very thought process . our grandfathers and ancestors were raised in a much society ruled by Christianity and dominated by Victorian views of sex . they routinely were virgins or had very few sex partners before they got married , and when they did marry it was usually for life . there were very few if any sex-until-i-find-my-wife girls .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As i said before, it doesn't matter if they control it or not. Women will not want virgins. That's it. Period.
> 
> You seem to be not seeing that women's standards do as much for the double standard as men's do. You cant expect men to bend their standards while women maintain theirs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i do not fail to see this at all . women are taught standards that keep them subservient to men . women are taught standards that give them very little chance of having high self esteem . i do not expect men to change their standards . we have it good . women need to raise theirs .
> 
> 
> 
> You called yourself "pro-woman", whatever that means. I would call you "anti-man". You want changes but you seem to be pushing it for these to happen only in one side.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> since half of all marriages end in divorce . with sex and money being the 2 top reasons for it . and me raising 3 daughters , i have tried my very best to teach them to be self confident , have high self esteem , determine their own value , make their own decisions , and have high standards when it comes to men . i am pro the women i raised .
> 
> 
> 
> Will never happen and i explained why already. Women sexual restrain is advantageous for both the males and themselves. Men's sexual restrain was never a positive genetically selected trait.
> 
> Blame nature if you want. But i'm not going to fight it just because you have a social agenda that intends to make women not "equal" to men, but "the same". There is a world of difference between the two notions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it is not nature or biology . it is insecure men , who have used religion , to impose their dominance over women . i for one have never had any desire for a woman who i dominated . i have always wanted a partner . plain and simple .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but that was plainly silly. By definition, people who wait and invest heavily into a relationship are much more likely to be really serious about it. And yes, it does show character and commitment.
> 
> You speak of honesty and integrity and reliability. Do you think a guy who gets your girls into bed after a night of partying will have demonstrated his qualities in that field? Can you not see that is plainly obvious that a man takes time to show all these and that the wait for sex makes it possible for him to show them or not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i do not think that my girls will get into bed with a guy unless they want to get into bed with him . my daughters do not think having sex with a guy shows them what kind of person he is . they think what a man does in his every day life shows these qualities . guys can not talk . or fool my daughters into having sex with them . they do not have sex with a guy because they think he loves her , or respects her , or will stay with her , and they do not choose not to have sex based on these things either . they have sex because they choose to have sex . they are not victims , naieve , or gullible . my daughters have not been used by guys , but they have used a few themselves . and they are all currently in healthy , committed , steady relationships with guys who they feel are good enough for them .
> 
> 
> 
> And more, after just having sex for a night worth of banter, will he even care? Will he form a connection with the woman? He probably won't.
> 
> We are talking odds here. Do you want to make a poll directed at men and ask if they are more inclined to be with a woman who made them wait or not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> only if we can poll the same men asking if they have cheated on their partner , and if they are sexually satisfied with their partner .
> 
> 
> 
> Again, yes, i'm totally disregarding what you think men-women relationships should be and i'm working with what they are. I guess i'm not strong in "what if" scenarios, specially when it involves the happiness of my daughter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> most people do disregard what relationships should be . that is the reason for such a high divorce rate . most men have immature childish beliefs about women . beliefs like : women get all stretched out if they have had alot of sex . or women who have had many sexual partners will not be faithful . or women are virgins are better than women who are not . no wonder so many marriages dont last .
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know what an average is? The comparison between men and women isn't really what you are searching for. What really matters is that a smaller number of men get a large number of women and that a small number of women have a large number of sexual partners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes an average is what happens most often . a small number of men and women have lots of sexual partners . lets say 10% for the sake of this conversation . that means the other 80% have the same number of sexual partners . that right there should tell you that the number of sexual partners is either irrelevant , or lied about by 80% of people . my opinion is that it is both irrelevant and lied about for men and women .
> 
> 
> 
> And this becomes relevant when you think that the small number of men who get lots of women are in demand and the small number of women who have many sexual partners are not considered by the overwhelming majority of men as fit to engage in a long term relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the number can not be relevant simply because 90% of people get married at least once in their life . the numbers tell us that the people who are in high demand , and the people who are not considered as marriage material are having sex with each other until then end up getting married . the conflict is not between what is and what i want it to be . the conflict is between what is and what people act like it is .
> 
> 
> 
> Again buddy, conflict between what it is and what you want it to be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't know what you are hinting at but i don't see anything funny about this notion. If you can't understand that a number one guy has reasons to feel great about himself while number 100 guy has a lot less, then i must really question what kind of guy you are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> youre right it is not funny , it is sad . it is sad to think that anyone would think that they are more or less special based on which number sexual partner they are to someone else . it is sad that someone could have such little self esteem . it is sad that some people think the only value they have is the value someone else gives them . it is sad knowing that there are so many sad excuses for men out there .
> 
> If i'm the first to climb the Everest i'm top of the world. If i'm number 100 i'm just one more. Is this a hard notion to grasp?
> 
> 
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> 
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----------



## SimplyAmorous

Broken at 20 said:


> I am surprised how much this thread has evolved.
> 
> It started with how a wonderful mother will teach her daughter to be confident in herself and love herself, and know what she wants in a man, and what to look for,
> 
> And it has turned into people debating over biology and instinctual needs, and evolution. Very interesting.


Just for the record, this doesn't bother me, as it is interesting to hear opposing views, I surely do not feel everyone agrees with me, just my attempt to explain WHY I feel as I do...as a woman, as a Mom. 

Also good to hear the detailed reasons why others oppose my views....some even desire a similar outcome -but use a different method entirely in raising their kids... for instance... Comparing ForeverMemorable's contribution on this thread.. I parent very differently ....but our views on how we desire our children handle sex is very similar. So that was interesting too.

It's fine. This is how informed people make descions, gathering, 2 - 3 - 4 sides of an issue... with a lot of side issues coming up along the way...like sexual attraction (biology), sex drive (instinctual needs) ....beliefs....these things are bound to come up ~ when you think about it. 

I would just kindly ask... don't let any Debating get to the point of a Mod needing to step in & get my thread LOCKED, this I would not be happy with .... we can all "agree to disagree"...this is cool.


----------



## Michael A. Brown

It is really important that this thing will start from you as her parent. You must let her understand about it.


----------



## DCMarriageCounselor

SimplyAmorous said:


> *4. *I will explain to my daughter, she WILL Have sexual urges, this is natural .... and to understand BOYS have those same urges -but raging 10 times MORE than she is feeling them- if that can even be imagined ! They are near blinded with LUST ...and this overflows out of thier mouths with flirtatious fury around the girls. To not be fooled, this has nothing ever to do with LOVE..... she needs to understand this completely, their minds have been near hi-jacked by Overloads of Testosterone. Some are scrambling to understand it themselves, their IS an immaturity there. Boys will also be compelled to look upon porn & oogle women, I don't care how "good" or "moral" they are, they *will *WANT to do this. My daughter will have a FINE education on the male sex drive.
> 
> 
> This is helpful and really insightful stuff! We have a daughter and I want to think through what we will show and tell her about sex so that she has a balanced and healthy view of herself and doesn't have to hide things. I really like your thinking here about helping girls not be intimated or niave to the male sex drive. :smthumbup:


----------



## larry.gray

Time to resurrect a zombie thread - this stuff is too good to be forgotten. Three years four months since it started and two years four months since it was last commented on.

I love the list, and I agree with every one of your points.

I just want to add one more: how to avoid infidelity. How to avoid becoming a betrayed spouse and how to avoid becoming a wayward spouse.

Much of this advice is at the end of the educating so to speak. It is for when relationships are moving from the courting to the serious consideration of marriage.

I will teach my daughters that privacy in marriage means that you close the door when you use the bathroom. There isn't privacy in your phone calls, text message, online relationships and so on. You give that openness, and demand that openness. Demand that you share when people aren't a friend of marriage, and cut toxic people out of your life.

I will teach my daughters that when you have little kids, you will be tempted to put you children first ALWAYS and ignore your husband. Don't to that, your children grow up but you want your marriage to be good for life. It doesn't mean neglecting your children, just don't ignore your husband. And hey, grandma and grandpa will love to take them off your hands.


----------



## Betrayedone

SimplyAmorous said:


> My daughter is very very very precious to me. After seeing 4 little penis's in a row when giving birth, I can not even express.. finally.... hearing ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> !! :yay::yay:
> 
> 
> I count WHO my daughter marries oneday to be the single most important decision she will ever make in her entire life.....and how she handles her sexuality before she meets this man can not be under-estimated -in my opionion. It has the power & potential to destroy her dreams, or allow them to take flight to full fruition, with no regrets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *1. *1st, SEX will never be a dirty word in our household. I want my daughter to see playful displays of affection between me & her father, we do not hide kisses, hugs, even a little flirting, I want her to see a healthy happiness there. I also instill within her, even now - she can come to me with anything & everything, nothing will shock me, I understand human nature well, nor will I shame her for any subject. We are very open communicators in our family - It is a good foundation to be laid.
> 
> But 1st -what do I mean by SEX....I agree with this definition...."Having sex" means any consensual behavior between two individuals involving genital contact & bodily penetration. That means oral sex, anal sex, and vaginal sex are all "*sex' *" .... can read more here ..... The Definition of 'Sex'
> 
> *2. *I will teach my daughter .....Sex is beautiful thing ...but it has it's place, there is a time & a season for such beauty... it is meant to be shared between 2 people who LOVE each other. There is no greater pleasure God has given us on this earth, no emotional BONDING that has more meaning -as the giving & receiving in this way, that this act has the awesome potential to Create NEW LIFE..... that it should never be used casually, or carelessly, because of this very fact, It carries the greatest of responsibilities with it. It is the awesomest of the AWESOME. I will refer to it as "sacred" even.
> 
> 
> *3. *I will teach my daughter not everyone looks at Sex as this Special. What she sees in the media, magazines, tv, music, hears in school, even sees friends experience - too often results in broken relationships where sex was ingaged in TOO QUICKLY, the "bad boys" being praised for their conquests, Girls giving themselves to these gamers in hopes "for love", women dressing to entice the hot guys -and for what ? Hearts ripped in 2, tears, loss of self esteem sometimes, pregnancy faced alone, Grandparents raising grandchildren, children growing up without fathers, a night of physical passion without connection? Rubbers can be worn but the brokenness that follows SCARS our entire society.
> 
> I will ask her how she feels about these things. I will ask her what SHE wants for her own life. I will tell her she has POWER, she has CHOICES....and to never be led by "the crowd". She is her own woman.
> 
> Also she MUST take responsibility for those choices. Personal Responsibility is HUGE in our family -I will not allow my TEENS to see themselves as "victims" - if they had a voice & a choice in the matter.
> 
> Sure we all make mistakes, we forge ahead living in the moment, none of us are perfect, but to KNOW the "games" others play, know the "RISKS" of each action before indulging & OWN your own "hand" in it- this is a must.
> 
> 
> *4. *I will explain to my daughter, she WILL Have sexual urges, this is natural .... and to understand BOYS have those same urges -but raging 10 times MORE than she is feeling them- if that can even be imagined ! They are near blinded with LUST ...and this overflows out of thier mouths with flirtatious fury around the girls. To not be fooled, this has nothing ever to do with LOVE..... she needs to understand this completely, their minds have been near hi-jacked by Overloads of Testosterone. Some are scrambling to understand it themselves, their IS an immaturity there. Boys will also be compelled to look upon porn & oogle women, I don't care how "good" or "moral" they are, they *will *WANT to do this. My daughter will have a FINE education on the male sex drive.
> 
> A few comments from men themselves on the http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/34971-male-sex-drive.html thread about their youth, I appreciate their honesty! ....
> 
> 
> 
> *5. *I will explain to my daughter ...if a Boy truly has HER interests at heart (some are struggling with LUST & pangs of LOVE, their very own hearts).... if influenced by Genuine feelings of care & interest in MORE than some booty.... these boys will stick around, they will continue to woo her, "wait" for *HER*- every part of her, they will listen to her, they will take "the time" - (of course they will be fantasizing like mad in addition) but still they will try to BE that gentleman for their "lady".....take her out , make plans to enjoy things together, talks walks & talk, call her just to hear her voice, learn of her as a person, ask what she enjoys & make that happen.
> 
> These boys may itch to get in her pants, but she should never JUMP... if she is interested in them, TEST them with the ruler of TIME, allow them to openly reveal their "heart" in regards to her. This is wisdom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am of the belief.... Although ALL men LOVE & crave sex, they will "wait" & pursue the one girl that captures their heart & soul. Once they are "caught", they are ensnared. Love is the most amazing thing on this earth. The greatest love songs ever penned were written by MEN in love.
> 
> 
> 
> *6. *When she starts dating herself -being alone with a boy turning into a man, I will likely share how me & her father handled ourselves before we married. Where our boundaries were....was MORE than the Church would consider "moral" but it was LESS than what the majority, even within the church pew did themselves! So let the judgers judge. But for us... it kept us from burning with LUST, an "emotional connection" grew & we still had something "NEW" to bring to our Wedding night, what we deemed the most sacred to give to each other .
> 
> My daughter will have to decide for herself what her "*personal boundaries*" will be in this area.
> 
> Some women can enjoy Sex without an emotional connection... I personally can not understand this at all, I am greedy!! I would want BOTH, LUST is passionate & all Consuming -YES ! ....but I would want MORE from that man, I would tie myself to him, want to posses him , It would utterly DEVESTATE me if he did not feel the same as I, was cold the next day or ....gone.
> 
> I will talk openly to my daughter about this side of sex also, and ask how she would feel about such things. Explaining MANY men can separate this, one night stands are common. But I will always believe, overwhelmingly more women get HURT by these, loosing a part of themselves along the way.
> 
> 
> *7. *I will speak openly about STD's/ veneral diseases with my daughter.....she MUST not be ignorant of the physical ramifications that can come upon her body, some for life. Many do not even know they have it -when it is transmitted. Untreated, some can lead to pelvic inflammatory disease- which causes Infertility- which can risk her future chances of being a mother. STD's That Cause Infertility
> 
> A list here:
> Sexually Transmitted Diseases: Rhode Island Department of Health
> 
> *8. **I will teach my daughter there is a heavy EMOTIONAL side to sex*.... Sex releases certain chemicals in our brains that change the way we think ...the hormones released work to bond us to our partner, it's like gluing two pieces of paper together. If you tried to tear those pages apart, the break wouldn't be a clean one. The same kind of thing happens when there's a breakup in a sexual relationship. These break ups can be as painful as mini-divorces. If this happens over & over & over, it has a way of de-personalizing our emotions.
> 
> Also, these sexual memories of our 1st, 2nd, 3rd boyfriends may linger in our psyche, show up in the bedroom later with our very husbands, comparisons creep in. We may wish he was as BIG as #1, or his oral skills was as arousing as #2. It is just something to consider. Of coarse men can do this also, comparing old girlfriends to thier wives. Then we have the whole Facebook debacle with old lovers befriending each other & the nightmare that brings.
> 
> 
> *9. *Although many men will not care how many partners a girl had in her youth -they may even be ecstatic she is experienced & could show him a thing or 2! There are SOME men out there who will care, it has Great meaning to them -and it is not as much about "insecurities"...as much as it is about "the sacredness" they attach to "love making" -they feel this is the Greatest gift one can give their future bride/husbands, worthy of the waiting- hard as it may be to contain. My oldest son feels this way-strongly , I will not belittle that ..but being such a pure Virgin, I feel has it's RISKS also ...which brings me to ...
> 
> 
> *10*. Sexual Repression is far too common - 1 hinderance I do not wish upon any of my children, although I want them to wait -make sure they are loved & cherished BEFORE they "give" their full selves to another.
> 
> I will teach my daughter ... If she is going to be in a relationship with a man, she needs to understand him, and have compassion on what HE is going through physically, if he is willing to wait for her - IF that is even her desire. And a man NEEDS to know, without a shadow of a doubt, that even though she may not be READY to engage in genital to genital contact with him, that she craves physical intimacy with him, , that she is deeply sexually attracted to him. I would hope their openness would blossom to Orgasm talk & how they feel about them, as I feel a man should KNOW these things about any woman he marries. This gives him some indication of her sex drive, as this could vary greatly from woman to woman.
> 
> This will be very unpopular advice for strict religious believers, but I feel it is terribly RISKY for a high drive man to marry a pure untouched virgin, he really has NO IDEA if she will even ENJOY sex - which "could" put him in a near prison once married, if she finds out she doesn't care for it after the vows. LOVE is NOT ENOUGH to keep that flame alive, Healthy sex is vital to all marriages. I've read too many personal stories, very heart breaking.
> 
> I knew of one couple who didn't even KISS until their wedding day. Do I think they are crazy...yeah pretty much... but I guess it worked out for THEM, he was not resentful, they waited, they have no regrets..to each our own in our ...personal boundaries. So long as both is on the same page, you may have found your "match" made in Heaven.
> 
> I don't feel she needs to be so pure as to either of them burning with lust, while near crying to touch each other. I think we need to ENJOY each others body to some degree, even give each other pleasure. I think the problem most would have is..they wouldn't be able to stop- once they got going. I guess me & my husband are not the norm, we never went over our boundaries in this regard- though I sure remember wanting too! .


I love this......thank you from the bottom of my heart......my daughter and son are all that I have left.......I will share this with both of them........


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *larry.gray said*: *I just want to add one more: how to avoid infidelity. How to avoid becoming a betrayed spouse and how to avoid becoming a wayward spouse.
> *
> Much of this advice is at the end of the educating so to speak. It is for when relationships are moving from the courting to the serious consideration of marriage.
> 
> I will teach my daughters that privacy in marriage means that you close the door when you use the bathroom. *There isn't privacy in your phone calls, text message, online relationships and so on. You give that openness, and demand that openness. Demand that you share when people aren't a friend of marriage, and cut toxic people out of your life.*


 Couldn't agree more with you here.. I feel so strongly on these points, it would be in my 1st 5 deal breakers with a man...though if it has to be "demanded"- I would be very concerned....it should be something we want to give *willingly*....did you ever see this thread of mine...








...http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...parency-what-means-our-marraige-what-you.html

... I tried to dissect how THIS works ...that a couple understand the sheer importance of sharing at the "*seed stage*" of any issues ....this means the uncomfortable, the vulnerable....so it doesn't have a chance to grow...but 2 going forth together ...because >> *secrets carry power*...

This is not always easy on either side..so we must stop, REALLY LISTEN....show understanding...and NOT always expect perfection.. it's a deep subject really..... it can only be achieved by 2 willing partners able to look at their own hand.. who truly value transparency...and what this can bring to a marriage...











> *larry.gray said**I will teach my daughters that when you have little kids, you will be tempted to put you children first ALWAYS and ignore your husband. Don't to that, your children grow up but you want your marriage to be good for life. It doesn't mean neglecting your children, just don't ignore your husband. And hey, grandma and grandpa will love to take them off your hands*.


 this is where I personally failed...it could have been worse though, we still did everything together... it was more like "family family family" - and we lost some of the FUN, passion, giddy Flirtation of what could have been -even with kids... 

We always had this "open door" thing going on, they would crash on the carpet in the bedroom, had 1 in bed with us.. we were something like this..minus the chicken & replace that dog with a cat...










We never took an overnight for just *US*....rarely did a date out even...I recall my Aunt insisting on watching our kids after we had our daughter - so we could get out...and I remember thinking..sitting across from him at the table.... "Oh my - what do we even talk about -if not the kids?" ... now that should have been like an alert to me.. THAT MOMENT...but it slipped... 

Then ...yeah.. I went a little overboard in Mid Life thinking "







what was wrong with me.. we need to get out & enjoy - forget the kids ~ I wanted to run away from them!!..
I felt like this old classic I Think We`re Alone Now  ...



> Running just as fast as we can,
> Holdin' onto one another's hand,
> Tryin' to get away into the night,
> And then you put your arms around me,
> And we tumble to the ground,
> And then you say,
> I think we're alone now,
> There does't seem to be anyone around.
> I think we're alone now,
> The beating of our hearts is the only sound.





> *Betrayedone said:* *I love this......thank you from the bottom of my heart......my daughter and son are all that I have left.......I will share this with both of them..*..


 You sound like a wonderful Father...and I appreciate your taking the time to read & comment ....


----------



## AmyPruett

SimplyAmorous said:


> My daughter is very very very precious to me. After seeing 4 little penis's in a row when giving birth, I can not even express.. finally.... hearing ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> !! :yay::yay:
> 
> 
> I count WHO my daughter marries oneday to be the single most important decision she will ever make in her entire life.....and how she handles her sexuality before she meets this man can not be under-estimated -in my opionion. It has the power & potential to destroy her dreams, or allow them to take flight to full fruition, with no regrets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *1. *1st, SEX will never be a dirty word in our household. I want my daughter to see playful displays of affection between me & her father, we do not hide kisses, hugs, even a little flirting, I want her to see a healthy happiness there. I also instill within her, even now - she can come to me with anything & everything, nothing will shock me, I understand human nature well, nor will I shame her for any subject. We are very open communicators in our family - It is a good foundation to be laid.
> 
> But 1st -what do I mean by SEX....I agree with this definition...."Having sex" means any consensual behavior between two individuals involving genital contact & bodily penetration. That means oral sex, anal sex, and vaginal sex are all "*sex' *" .... can read more here ..... The Definition of 'Sex'
> 
> *2. *I will teach my daughter .....Sex is beautiful thing ...but it has it's place, there is a time & a season for such beauty... it is meant to be shared between 2 people who LOVE each other. There is no greater pleasure God has given us on this earth, no emotional BONDING that has more meaning -as the giving & receiving in this way, that this act has the awesome potential to Create NEW LIFE..... that it should never be used casually, or carelessly, because of this very fact, It carries the greatest of responsibilities with it. It is the awesomest of the AWESOME. I will refer to it as "sacred" even.
> 
> 
> *3. *I will teach my daughter not everyone looks at Sex as this Special. What she sees in the media, magazines, tv, music, hears in school, even sees friends experience - too often results in broken relationships where sex was ingaged in TOO QUICKLY, the "bad boys" being praised for their conquests, Girls giving themselves to these gamers in hopes "for love", women dressing to entice the hot guys -and for what ? Hearts ripped in 2, tears, loss of self esteem sometimes, pregnancy faced alone, Grandparents raising grandchildren, children growing up without fathers, a night of physical passion without connection? Rubbers can be worn but the brokenness that follows SCARS our entire society.
> 
> I will ask her how she feels about these things. I will ask her what SHE wants for her own life. I will tell her she has POWER, she has CHOICES....and to never be led by "the crowd". She is her own woman.
> 
> Also she MUST take responsibility for those choices. Personal Responsibility is HUGE in our family -I will not allow my TEENS to see themselves as "victims" - if they had a voice & a choice in the matter.
> 
> Sure we all make mistakes, we forge ahead living in the moment, none of us are perfect, but to KNOW the "games" others play, know the "RISKS" of each action before indulging & OWN your own "hand" in it- this is a must.
> 
> 
> *4. *I will explain to my daughter, she WILL Have sexual urges, this is natural .... and to understand BOYS have those same urges -but raging 10 times MORE than she is feeling them- if that can even be imagined ! They are near blinded with LUST ...and this overflows out of thier mouths with flirtatious fury around the girls. To not be fooled, this has nothing ever to do with LOVE..... she needs to understand this completely, their minds have been near hi-jacked by Overloads of Testosterone. Some are scrambling to understand it themselves, their IS an immaturity there. Boys will also be compelled to look upon porn & oogle women, I don't care how "good" or "moral" they are, they *will *WANT to do this. My daughter will have a FINE education on the male sex drive.
> 
> A few comments from men themselves on the http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/34971-male-sex-drive.html thread about their youth, I appreciate their honesty! ....
> 
> 
> 
> *5. *I will explain to my daughter ...if a Boy truly has HER interests at heart (some are struggling with LUST & pangs of LOVE, their very own hearts).... if influenced by Genuine feelings of care & interest in MORE than some booty.... these boys will stick around, they will continue to woo her, "wait" for *HER*- every part of her, they will listen to her, they will take "the time" - (of course they will be fantasizing like mad in addition) but still they will try to BE that gentleman for their "lady".....take her out , make plans to enjoy things together, talks walks & talk, call her just to hear her voice, learn of her as a person, ask what she enjoys & make that happen.
> 
> These boys may itch to get in her pants, but she should never JUMP... if she is interested in them, TEST them with the ruler of TIME, allow them to openly reveal their "heart" in regards to her. This is wisdom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am of the belief.... Although ALL men LOVE & crave sex, they will "wait" & pursue the one girl that captures their heart & soul. Once they are "caught", they are ensnared. Love is the most amazing thing on this earth. The greatest love songs ever penned were written by MEN in love.
> 
> 
> 
> *6. *When she starts dating herself -being alone with a boy turning into a man, I will likely share how me & her father handled ourselves before we married. Where our boundaries were....was MORE than the Church would consider "moral" but it was LESS than what the majority, even within the church pew did themselves! So let the judgers judge. But for us... it kept us from burning with LUST, an "emotional connection" grew & we still had something "NEW" to bring to our Wedding night, what we deemed the most sacred to give to each other .
> 
> My daughter will have to decide for herself what her "*personal boundaries*" will be in this area.
> 
> Some women can enjoy Sex without an emotional connection... I personally can not understand this at all, I am greedy!! I would want BOTH, LUST is passionate & all Consuming -YES ! ....but I would want MORE from that man, I would tie myself to him, want to posses him , It would utterly DEVESTATE me if he did not feel the same as I, was cold the next day or ....gone.
> 
> I will talk openly to my daughter about this side of sex also, and ask how she would feel about such things. Explaining MANY men can separate this, one night stands are common. But I will always believe, overwhelmingly more women get HURT by these, loosing a part of themselves along the way.
> 
> 
> *7. *I will speak openly about STD's/ veneral diseases with my daughter.....she MUST not be ignorant of the physical ramifications that can come upon her body, some for life. Many do not even know they have it -when it is transmitted. Untreated, some can lead to pelvic inflammatory disease- which causes Infertility- which can risk her future chances of being a mother. STD's That Cause Infertility
> 
> A list here:
> Sexually Transmitted Diseases: Rhode Island Department of Health
> 
> *8. **I will teach my daughter there is a heavy EMOTIONAL side to sex*.... Sex releases certain chemicals in our brains that change the way we think ...the hormones released work to bond us to our partner, it's like gluing two pieces of paper together. If you tried to tear those pages apart, the break wouldn't be a clean one. The same kind of thing happens when there's a breakup in a sexual relationship. These break ups can be as painful as mini-divorces. If this happens over & over & over, it has a way of de-personalizing our emotions.
> 
> Also, these sexual memories of our 1st, 2nd, 3rd boyfriends may linger in our psyche, show up in the bedroom later with our very husbands, comparisons creep in. We may wish he was as BIG as #1, or his oral skills was as arousing as #2. It is just something to consider. Of coarse men can do this also, comparing old girlfriends to thier wives. Then we have the whole Facebook debacle with old lovers befriending each other & the nightmare that brings.
> 
> 
> *9. *Although many men will not care how many partners a girl had in her youth -they may even be ecstatic she is experienced & could show him a thing or 2! There are SOME men out there who will care, it has Great meaning to them -and it is not as much about "insecurities"...as much as it is about "the sacredness" they attach to "love making" -they feel this is the Greatest gift one can give their future bride/husbands, worthy of the waiting- hard as it may be to contain. My oldest son feels this way-strongly , I will not belittle that ..but being such a pure Virgin, I feel has it's RISKS also ...which brings me to ...
> 
> 
> *10*. Sexual Repression is far too common - 1 hinderance I do not wish upon any of my children, although I want them to wait -make sure they are loved & cherished BEFORE they "give" their full selves to another.
> 
> I will teach my daughter ... If she is going to be in a relationship with a man, she needs to understand him, and have compassion on what HE is going through physically, if he is willing to wait for her - IF that is even her desire. And a man NEEDS to know, without a shadow of a doubt, that even though she may not be READY to engage in genital to genital contact with him, that she craves physical intimacy with him, , that she is deeply sexually attracted to him. I would hope their openness would blossom to Orgasm talk & how they feel about them, as I feel a man should KNOW these things about any woman he marries. This gives him some indication of her sex drive, as this could vary greatly from woman to woman.
> 
> This will be very unpopular advice for strict religious believers, but I feel it is terribly RISKY for a high drive man to marry a pure untouched virgin, he really has NO IDEA if she will even ENJOY sex - which "could" put him in a near prison once married, if she finds out she doesn't care for it after the vows. LOVE is NOT ENOUGH to keep that flame alive, Healthy sex is vital to all marriages. I've read too many personal stories, very heart breaking.
> 
> I knew of one couple who didn't even KISS until their wedding day. Do I think they are crazy...yeah pretty much... but I guess it worked out for THEM, he was not resentful, they waited, they have no regrets..to each our own in our ...personal boundaries. So long as both is on the same page, you may have found your "match" made in Heaven.
> 
> I don't feel she needs to be so pure as to either of them burning with lust, while near crying to touch each other. I think we need to ENJOY each others body to some degree, even give each other pleasure. I think the problem most would have is..they wouldn't be able to stop- once they got going. I guess me & my husband are not the norm, we never went over our boundaries in this regard- though I sure remember wanting too! .


I wish my mom taught me these. I grew up in a conservative family and whatever knowledge I have about sex came from the mass media and the internet since nobody was willing to talk about it. Thank you.


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## ConanHub

Don't have daughters but I am going to keep this in case I have grand daughters. Very good SA!:smthumbup:


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## larry.gray

Yep!!!!

You recently started about another thread about zombie threads and some of them get locked. This one should NEVER be locked.


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## SurpriseMyself

This thread gives me hope, especially considering all the "pro-porn" threads on TAM. One guy even says porn saved his marriage. 

If you believe in what was stated in the OP, then I have to think you think porn is wrong. After all, that's somebody's daughter on the screen.


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## SimplyAmorous

SurpriseMyself said:


> *This thread gives me hope, especially considering all the "pro-porn" threads on TAM. One guy even says porn saved his marriage.
> 
> If you believe in what was stated in the OP, then I have to think you think porn is wrong. After all, that's somebody's daughter on the screen.*


When I was younger I was very much *against* porn.. felt it was all DISGUSTING ...I remember viewing it once in our younger yrs...(obviously too hard core)...it put a very sour taste in my mouth.. I even associated certain acts with porn because of this... which should have never been!! Now granted I was somewhat repressed...too much "good girl" thinking back then...which I must be honest here.. I very much regret & did a thread on that too! 

I even complained about R rated movies...I hated the fact they were all jumping in bed quickly , not married...yet the scenes still sent an EROTIC shiver right to my private parts... it turned me [email protected]#$ darn it...so I still watched ...I also enjoyed reading a steamy romance.. (women's porn so they say)... just being honest here.  

People have an allure to look upon the EROTIC, to read about it (the Higher drive you are, the more this will have a hold on you)...men especially... they are very visual (One of Testosterone's effects)...speaks how testosterone beefs up the man's hypothalamus, the area of the brain that's interested in sex...which is twice as large in men over us women - in a young man's youth, he has 20 X's more Test over us- this explains his sexual obsessions..

Understand What Sex Does to Your Brain 

Now...women can get a taste of this in Mid Life too.. I did [email protected]#... It's why I landed here... it was messing with my head ...and lo & behold.. I started to LOVE Porn...viewing it was like "electric" ... {{{ sorry -just keeping it honest ! }}} Maybe it was WRONG OF ME.. but it didn't hurt our marriage in any way.. so I guess I am not feeling all that guilty about it.

I bought this collection of DVD's with real couples exploring a variety of Role playing, positions , tips & turn on's, demonstrations of Kama Sutra , presentations & explanations of sexual anatomy (including the elusive G-spot), erotic massage , fundamentals of foreplay - oral sex, erotic talk, sensual touch & kissing, to add passion & inspire creativity.. 

 Better Sex Video Series: Sexplorations ...we greatly enjoyed it ! 

We rented porn for a time & I went after all the Dvd's like this.. 
Loving Sex DVDs | Alexander Institute ... 

I have no desire to lie to anyone on this forum.. if others want to judge that....you are free to do so. 

I am one for FREE expression / Liberty .... Do I think parents should do their BEST to mentor our sons & daughters to make informed choices in their younger yrs ..in regards to the opposite sex - even when their bodies feel on fire for each other...







[email protected]#$%^&*..

All they will get from *SEX EDUCATION* is a talking about not getting pregnant / avoiding STD's / "safe sex", just put a condom on it







.. and "CONSENT"...big debate on this now, even have "apps" for it since so many get drunk while engaging ! 

There is 0 *talk* on the *emotional ramifications*/ strings/ baggage of indulging too soon...the initial bonding, the breakups , which can lead to depression.. we all know SEX can be addicting [email protected]#...with the chemicals released in our brains....the dopamine (our pleasure hormone, has the effects of cocaine)... ocytocin and Vasopressin ...these are all "values-neutral"...

This is where we as parents NEED to step in.. guide our children...speak on these very important things as we raise them....make sure our children are not using sex for an escape also.. this is a good article...(even adults can do this!)

When Sex Becomes Escape. ~ elephant journal

But people will not always agree with me.. I have a book which explains the effects on our young people's brains... 

Hooked: New Science on How Casual Sex is Affecting Our Children: Books

But having said all of this.....after the age of 18...it's out of our hands, some feel it is at 15 ..throwing their hands in the air saying.. "I remember what I did at that age!"... 

If a young woman wants to pay for her college education by strip teasing or doing a little porn... what can we DO? Take Belle Know for example.. .. she defended HER RIGHT TO DO PORN, she feels it is empowering...(or did months ago.. I am not sure where she is today)...

Piers Morgan show- Belle Knox  she speaks on how we are so repressed in our society... 

Duke porn star Belle Knox: Rough sex empowering 

Do I think its wise to do what Belle Knox did >>> I do not.. but I wouldn't take her right to do it away either...

I am one who happens to feel the church is too strict ...everything so hush hush...which often sets our children up to FALL... leaving them feeling ashamed / for these hormonal urges... and too often this too can lead to being sexually repressed...this is no good either !..... 

Yet the world takes it to the other extreme, tossing out Love like it is nothing.. is there a happy balance?? .....We need to decide for ourselves what brings us the most fulfillment... and this answer may not BE the same for everyone....


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## SimplyAmorous

I much appreciated this article - thankfully I had it saved...as the link is now broken....no matter our differing views...I think we could all agree on the ending ...



> Embrace your sexuality | Metro
> 
> *So, you like sex. Shame on you, right? *
> 
> Many women, from post-war baby boomers to the fresh-faced crop of Generation Y, still have problems dealing with—even acknowledging—their own sensuality and sexuality. We navigate a minefield of religious and societal sanctions, health hazards, and a global media that bombards us with sexual imagery while at the same time being capable of uttering the words Sex, Sin and whor** in the same sentence. What are we as women to do? We asked a few readers and friends about embracing our own sexuality, and here’s what they had to say: Sexuality doesn’t mean promiscuity. Being sexual doesn’t mean sleeping around.
> 
> It’s not the number of men you’ve slept with that make your sex life truly fulfilling, but the quality of the sex, and how you feel about yourself after, that count. A woman can be her truest sexual self within the confines of a monogamous relationship—as a matter of fact, that’s where most women find the sexual identity they were looking for. As one married male musician tells us, “Finding and embracing your sexual self doesn't necessarily mean shame or being a sl**, particularly if your explorations are within the bounds of a loving, responsible relationship.”
> 
> *Unshackle your mind*
> 
> Although religious and moral codes are invaluable to maintaining order, they’re still rooted in an age where a woman’s sexuality was taboo. Those of us who are strong in our faiths find ourselves conflicted: how do we remain true to what we believe while still finding personal, emotional and sexual fulfillment?
> 
> Here, the choice is a personal one. But as we try to solve a dilemma that can erroneously be seen as a choice between body and soul, remember that many of the admonitions against what a woman thinks, feels and does are mired in an age when we were barely allowed to do any of the above.
> 
> Even our secular sisters feel the weight of social opinion. It’s especially galling because the condemnation for acting on our sexual feelings falls upon us, rather than on the broader backs of our brothers.“Men count their ‘conquests’ as notches on their belt, but women are considered ‘*****s’,” one banker observes. An article on sexuality suggested, perhaps tongue in cheek, that when women are asked how many people they’ve slept with, they halve their ‘number’, while men double theirs.
> 
> *Find a safe place*
> 
> We can’t express our sexuality if we feel pressured or threatened. In order to be truly fulfilled, we need to find a safe place... and that ‘place’ doesn’t necessarily mean a location. Safety has to do with being with someone you trust, who will open his mind wide enough to help you open yours.“Finding a safe place” also means making your life a maco-free zone. It’s a small country, and everyone knows somebody who knows somebody who did this, that and the other with somebody else. “Discreet” isn’t synonymous with “prudish”. Being sexual doesn’t mean getting drunk enough to whip off your top while a dozen cell phones upload your antics to the World Wide Web. Don’t feed the gossips. Better yet, get them out of your life. Who needs friends who spend more time getting their jollies over other people’s lives than living for themselves?
> 
> *Remember, you’re not alone*
> 
> The insurance agent in the grey suit patiently explaining your claim form to you was probably blindfolded and tied up last night. Your post-lady has an account at SexToysRUs.com. “The actions that society condemns in public, it commits behind closed doors,” one man suggests. We all like sex. We’re programmed to like sex. People are having more sex than you could possibly imagine, even those who act like butter won’t melt in their mouths.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...The key to enjoying our own sexuality is to remember that it’s not about what ‘people’ would think, but what we think. How great sex makes us feel, what a healing, bonding joy it is. _Set the boundaries you feel comfortable with and play within them_. And for the sake of love, don’t be too hard on yourself.... friend adds, “You judge yourself way harder than society does.” Embracing our sexuality is a life-long journey towards self-discovery; get yourself a First Class ticket to ride.


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## SurpriseMyself

This isn't about unshackling your mind, being open to your sexuality, or anything like that. This is about exploitation of women. 

The average age a woman starts her "career" in the porn industry is 22. During her career she will sleep with approximately 150 people on camera; don't know how many she will sleep with off camera. 

The OP was about learning about the emotional components of sex. About how you conduct yourself before you get married. About what parents want and hope for their daughters. 

Porn doesn't fit into any of the moral teachings above. And it's not that sexuality or sex is wrong. It's about what it says about how we value people as humans, how we practice what we preach. You can't say the above to a young girl, send her to bed, and then turn on a porno. Your word means nothing at that point. Might as well tell her to not do drugs and then go get high on the back deck. 

Of course, I can tell by how much you wrote that I won't convince you. But maybe the following will. These are quotes from women who once worked in porn:

*Jessie Jewels:* "People in the porn industry are numb to real life and are like zombies walking around. The abuse that goes on in this industry is completely ridiculous. The way these young ladies are treated is totally sick and brainwashing. I left due to the trauma I experienced even though I was there only a short time."
*Genevieve:*"I had bodily fluids all over my face that had to stay on my face for ten minutes. The abuse and degradation was rough. I sweated and was in deep pain. On top of the horrifying experience, my whole body ached, and I was irritable the whole day. The director didn't really care how I feltt; he only wanted to finish the video."
*Roxy (Shelley)*: "They told me if had my AIDS test that I'd be safe. I arrived on the set with my test and did a hardcore scene with two men. Within that week I was very sick with a fever of 104 and blisters all over my mouth, throat and private area. I looked like a monster. The doctor told me I had Genital Herpes. I wanted to die."
*Neesa:* "The truth is I let my lifestyle get the best of me. I hate life. I'm a mess. A disaster. I've attempted suicide many times."
*Jersey Jaxin*: "Guys punching you in the face. You have semen from many guys all over your face, in your eyes. You get ripped. Your insides can come out of you. It's never ending."
*Nadia Styles*: "I found out 2 days later that I had caught gonorrhea in my first scene! As quick as that the glamour of being a porn star was gone. In the five years I was shooting I caught Gonorrhea and Chlamydia many times. Sometimes both at the same time about every 3-5 months."


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## SurpriseMyself

And by the way, porn star Belle Knox started her porn career at 18. Before going into porn, she was featured in a Catholic Christian magazine and a Christian newsletter about her volunteer work. 

I guess she didn't find the lords work as "empowering." Sheesh!


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## SimplyAmorous

SurpriseMyself said:


> *Porn doesn't fit into any of the moral teachings above. And it's not that sexuality or sex is wrong. It's about what it says about how we value people as humans, how we practice what we preach. You can't say the above to a young girl, send her to bed, and then turn on a porno. Your word means nothing at that point. Might as well tell her to not do drugs and then go get high on the back deck.
> 
> Of course, I can tell by how much you wrote that I won't convince you. But maybe you can meet a 40 year old, washed up porn star one day and she might be able to.*


I don't know your story SurpriseMyself but I get the feeling you are one who KNOWS ALL ABOUT the Porn Industry & would take to task anyone who sets their eyes on a little porn. I am sure this means little to you, but anything demeaning, involving 3 people, basically 95% of porn *we* would both find DEGRADING & UGLY (I doubt I even have a clue how bad some of it IS).... we only enjoy the more sensual / romantic / SOFT... a story line is great, but rare to find. Things like this..  Xana and Dax: When Opposites Attract (Real People, Real Life, Real Sex series):  there is no exploitation here.. these are real couples wanting to share their love story...

I don't see viewing romantic porn in the same light as doing drugs or harming anyone. If all porn was of THIS nature.. there would be far less backlash even. 

I laid this out in part #3 ....If Belle Knox was our daughter, she would be taught the same.



> I will ask her how she feels about these things. I will ask her what SHE wants for her own life. I will tell her she has POWER, she has CHOICES....and to never be led by "the crowd". She is her own woman.
> 
> Also she MUST take responsibility for those choices. Personal Responsibility is HUGE in our family -I will not allow my TEENS to see themselves as "victims" - if they had a voice & a choice in the matter..
> 
> Sure we all make mistakes, we forge ahead living in the moment, none of us are perfect, but to KNOW the "games" others play, know the "RISKS" of each action before indulging & OWN your own "hand" in it- this is a must.


I've been in a few discussions with those who are staunchly anti-porn ...you are right...in some of this ...we will not see eye to eye...at least not when it involves an adult woman of age... Some view all of them as Victims where I see a choice in the matter. 

Also I want to add...*I am not a Christian*.. I was speaking as one who has always had a more *Romantic View of Sexuality *  HERE....(but that doesn't necessarily rule out some enjoyment of EROTICA, some visual)... 

I've taken some heat on this forum for my sexual views.. 

Christians reject me because I like a little porn (most of our friends are believers by the way)... Feminists reject me because I feel they trample on things I hold dear ...then those who embrace the casual sex lifestyle.. would just call me a Hypocrite, after all Porn is VERY Casual "sex is just sex".. it has to be!

Honesty has it's downside....I'll just take the rebuke. 

I try to understand another's choices and allow them that freedom...it's their life... .I only offer another perspective..

There was a thread here in the social section asking if people want to hear* the advice of others*.. it was laughable.. I think I was the only one who said in my youth...I welcomed the advice & experience of others and weighed it... but the vast majority wanted people to mind their own business.. THEY WANTED TO LEARN FROM THEIR OWN MISTAKES.... you listed the horror stories of some of these workers, this is so abundantly available at the click of a mouse... yet people continue to jump in.. 

I will have you know our eldest christian son would agree with you ....Oh he practices what he preaches..or he sure tries to.. but even he struggles with porn from time to time, being a single man.. then hates himself for it... I am not one who is going to shame him...



> *And by the way, porn star Belle Knox started her porn career at 18. Before going into porn, she was featured in a Catholic Christian magazine and a Christian newsletter about her volunteer work.
> 
> I guess she didn't find the lords work as "empowering." Sheesh*!


 the allure of Money ...what do they say.. it's the root of all evil...we sell ourselves ....she was just rationalizing her choices ...what many of us do I suppose... she made no bones about it... she did it for the ...the high price of a College Education is what she blames.. 

Just as I suppose I blame a high sex drive/ the effects of Testosterone on wanting to look upon some porn..... myself & H hate sports, we'd be bored out of own minds watching even a football game... but bring on some erotic entertainment.. we like it! I really don't care to apologize for this.. truth is.. we save every orgasm for each other, I think it's a beautiful thing...

We've made our own videos too.. really this is the best way to go !...as I am sure many a husband would welcome this.


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