# Is this abuse?



## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

Hello, apologies for the length. I'm trying to paint a thorough picture. Husband and I have been together for 14 years and have 4 children. We have a lot of big issues. I'm on the brink of divorce and trying to take the time to sort everything, and take a deep look at it all before making my final decision. 

So I'm needing help discerning this one instance which occurred last week because it affected me greatly. I have difficulty figuring out my own boundaries, or labeling abusive behaviors in the past (as much of what I've experienced is that hard-to-pinpoint emotional abuse). 

Last week, my husband was doing things to me emotionally he knows hurt me greatly. It kept going until it got to the point where I snapped and yelled at him angrily for a minute or two. I feel I was verbally abusive in this instance because of the yelling and probably called him a name or two. I have owned that my reaction what wrong. 

At that point I grabbed my purse and keys and left the house, telling him to take over with the kids. I went out to the car, started the engine, then changed my mind. I didn't want to leave my kids abruptly like that, amongst other reasons. I calmed down, and went back to the house. I realized he had locked me out (I didn't have the house key). 

After knocking, he asked me through the door if I had calmed down, and that he wasn't going to let me in until he was certain. I was very upset at him, but I said as evenly as i could that I was, and wanted to come back inside and just get on with the day, and would leave him completely alone. My tone was not yelling, screaming, abusive, in any manner. I sounded mildly upset and not happy with him, but definitely not anything else.

At that point he said I still sounded upset, and asked if I still blamed him for stuff that occurred earlier. I didn't answer, because while I did own my behavior earlier, I did still blame him for what he did beforehand. So instead of answering, I told him I didn't want to talk right now, and asked him to please let me back in.

He told me "Well if you still blame me, you can't come back in."

I told him I felt that was an unfair thing to do, and that I had a right to my opinion, but that I was calm and just wanted to go into the kids and get on with the day.

What followed was a reiteration of him trying to get me to agree/not blame him/ say things that I did not really feel or want to say. Mostly absolving him of all responsibility for his part earlier. Whenever he left the door if I didn't agree, I rang the doorbell a bunch and knocked a lot in rising panic. I told him this was not okay, and abusive and to please let me in. He said again, NO.

At that point I heard one of my babies fuss (no bad reason, just normal baby fussing) and I panicked once I finally realized "Holy crap, he's really keeping me away from the kids unless I agree with him". I started running around the house, attempting to find another open door or window to go inside, an he came around and locked all of them. At the back door I was very upset and said that if he didn't stop being abusive like this, I'd take the kids. I own that too was abusive in that I was trying to control him to let me in by threat.

At this point I was very cold and wet (it was raining) and scared at what was happening. I went back around to the front door, and once again asked him to please let me in, and that it wasn't okay to do this.

He then ordered the rest of our conversation be over text, because he had started saying a lot of things and I couldn't hear. What followed on the phone was mostly him saying his opinions at me and telling me that I needed to prove I was calm by admitting everything I did, and agree with him. He said that I proved I was NOT calm, by running around the house screaming and pounding on the windows. I DID NOT DO THAT. For one, I didn't want to scare the kids. Two, we live in a quadruplex/community, and was careful to make everything look as calm as possible. Three, I just didn't want to act stupid. I was upset and scared. That was all.

I told him I apologized for threatening him with the kids and it was wrong, and that I panicked. He made me promise I would never do that again, and I did. At this point, I'm crying and shivering in the rain and scared I was being kept from my kids. He reiterated again that I needed to PROVE I was calm, by owning all I did, and agreeing with him. I told him I owned all I had done, but that I couldn't agree on everything, at which point he said "Well if you don't agree, you need to stay gone".

Eventually, I just said whatever he wanted to let me in the house. But I had to say it just right, and in the right way. When my phone died and I couldn't text him anymore, he needed me to hand him my phone to prove it was dead before I was let in, stating that he wouldn't let me in until I did so.

So I finally got into the damned house. So ended that debacle.

Since then, we've talked about the incident. I reiterated that I was sorry I yelled earlier in the day, and threatened him wth the kids when I was outside and that it was unacceptable. I then asked him to own his part and assure me he understood those things too were unacceptable. Not only did he deny the stuff he did to begin with, but denied forcing me to agree to be let in to my house to my kids was an abusive thing to do.

I told him I understood that if he felt afraid I would be verbally abusive/yelling if I came back in originally, I agreed locking the door temporarily was understandable. It was when I told him I was calm repeatedly, and he started using the door/kids to get me to agree/absolve him of blame, etc. that was abusive and scary to me.

He vehemently denies it was abuse. He will go as far as saying "I understand you FELT it was abuse", or "If I misspoke, I understand how you could feel it was an abusive situation". He felt that it was not abusive because he was merely being certain I was calm before letting me in. And that if he asked me to agree, or absolve him of blame in order to let me in, he misspoke". 

At that point I read the texts to him, where he was forcing me to listen to his opinions, agree, and not blame him, in order to be let in. I told him I understood that perhaps he didn't intend abuse or anything, I just wanted him to see it after the fact so I know we could learn from it together and not repeat it.

He still denies it all. And so began our usual difference in realities. He insists that I was yelling when I first came to the door (I wasn't), that I pounded on the door to be let in (I knocked a lot), and screamed and yelled around the house like a crazy person, pounding on all the windows (I didn't), and therefore it made it fine for him to do what he did. 

So I'm left feeling torn between certainty of what I experienced, and that old feeling of "maybe I remembered wrong, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe I am wrong for holding onto this". He acts like I was some insane, out of control person while I was locked out. I was scared and crying! I don't know what to think or do about this anymore.

So thoughts please. And yes...this is toxic. Yes this is unhealthy. Yes, it's bad to have this negativity around the kids. And yes, it's all just plain stupid. That is why I'm on the brink of divorce. But it would help me a lot to know what this particular instance was. It was the first time he had me in a situation where I felt forced to listen/agree/not blame him. Was that actual abuse? Or did I just FEEL like it was?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

You should have called the cops.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

Andy1001 said:


> You should have called the cops.



I did think of that at the time, but that's where my issues come in, of not knowing where those boundaries are. I also didn't want to scare the kids and get the cops involved if I could help it. 

I get confused whenever I do react badly amongst the things he's doing, because he very easily hides behinds those things and makes me the sole bad-guy. 

He says that he didn't intend to refuse entry unless I agreed, etc. But grows aggravated when I show him the text proof of it, saying that he misspoke, or I misunderstood. And that since he didn't intend abuse, it therefore wasn't.

So to hear if it's actual abuse, or if I just felt it was abuse, would help greatly.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It was not only abuse, but he was preventing you from entering YOUR OWN HOUSE. He also endangered you by forcing you to be outside in bad weataher. I agree with the previous poster, if anything like that happens, call the police.

If there is a domestic disagreement, either party is free to *leave*, but not to prevent the other party from entering the house. 

Please make plans to divorce. This marriage cannot be saved, I think your goal should be a safe exit and divorce. It probably makes sense to record each incident. Contact an attorney. 

Do you believe he represents a physical risk to you or your children?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Lost Wife said:


> I did think of that at the time, but that's where my issues come in, of not knowing where those boundaries are. I also didn't want to scare the kids and get the cops involved if I could help it.
> 
> I get confused whenever I do react badly amongst the things he's doing, because he very easily hides behinds those things and makes me the sole bad-guy.
> 
> ...


Not only is it abuse but he is bullying you as well.
I would still make a complaint to the cops.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

First can you be more specific about what your husband did and said that was abusive to set all this off? Without knowing that it's hard to tell what really went down here in your example situation.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Yes. He was abusive. I do not really care what he did first. The minute he refused to let you in YOUR house, THEN he went around locking all the doors while your child was in distress....

Yeah, it doesn't matter what happened before or what names you called.

He was - at that point - objectively and unarguably abusive.

The end 

Period


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

uhtred said:


> It was not only abuse, but he was preventing you from entering YOUR OWN HOUSE. He also endangered you by forcing you to be outside in bad weataher. I agree with the previous poster, if anything like that happens, call the police.
> 
> If there is a domestic disagreement, either party is free to *leave*, but not to prevent the other party from entering the house.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your response. It helps to know where the line is regarding the house. If one felt afraid of the spouses anger, is there right to lock the doors? If so, at what point should they unlock it? Just trying to break it down into technical terms to understand it clearly. I had locked him out a few times over the years when I was afraid of his anger, but only once during a particularly scary episode did I ask him say he was calm before coming in. He is likening my behavior to that instance. 

I used to think there was no physical risk, but as divorce rears closer he seems to be losing his grip on himself. For instance while arguing over messages when he was in a different part of the house, I heard him completely lose control and start hitting stuff in the room. But hasn't displayed that kind of stuff towards me or the kids, and had since apologized. Kind of. There's so much crap in this marriage I wouldn't even know where to start. I just want to make damned sure I'm not being one-sided and unfair before I decide to rip my family apart and hurt my kids by doing so.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> If one felt afraid of the spouses anger, would be have a right to lock the doors?


If the person is physically threatening or has a weapon, I would lock the doors and call the police. But you don't lock your spouse out of the house because your feelings are hurt.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Lost Wife said:


> I did think of that at the time, but that's where my issues come in, of not knowing where those boundaries are. I also didn't want to scare the kids and get the cops involved if I could help it.
> 
> I get confused whenever I do react badly amongst the things he's doing, because he very easily hides behinds those things and makes me the sole bad-guy.
> 
> ...


This is how calling the cops would go down in this situation.

Cops arrive you tell them what happened and they knock on the door.

Husband opens the door and calmly explains your were screaming and yelling at him and threatening him with running off with the kids, so when you stepped out and came running back up to the door he locked you out hoping to diffuse the situation.

You show the cops your phone showing him refusing to let you in until he knows you have calmed down, your husband says he was afraid to have you in the house in your enraged state because he didn't want to expose the kids to it.

Cops check with you to determine if your calm and advise him to let you in and call them back if you lose it again. 

Unless there is visible proof of physical abuse there is not much the cops can do unless they have proof that someone is in danger.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

happyhusband0005 said:


> This is how calling the cops would go down in this situation.
> 
> Cops arrive you tell them what happened and they knock on the door.
> 
> ...


Okay thank you. Is fear of physical abuse the only reason to lock the door? Wanting to check my own actions of the past. The one time I kept him locked out (I had locked it behind him a few times, but always immediately unlocked it) I was fearful because I didn't know what he'd do, verbal, physical or otherwise. It was a big scary question mark. So if I was wrong there I'd like to know as well.

And I hear you on the cops being useful in those instances. As I grow confident of where those boundaries are, I will more likely recognize when they're really needed and not doubt myself.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

What he did was abusive and not even legal.

Even in the case of a divorce, a spouse can't lock their spouse out of the house.

Keep reading and posting here, so you can get a firm handle on what is OK and what is not OK.

You need to get away from this man as soon as you can.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

happyhusband0005 said:


> First can you be more specific about what your husband did and said that was abusive to set all this off? Without knowing that it's hard to tell what really went down here in your example situation.



It's really difficult and long winded to explain, as it's all based on him repeatedly choosing to do things he knows make me feel extremely hurt and disrespected. After doing the top few in rapid succession at once, I lost my cool. And no matter what, me choosing to get angry and yell at him in reaction wasn't okay.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

I think this thread should be merged with the one on his lying, porn use, and ED. All of these behaviors are related. Two of your children are what, 1 and 3? Find some courage, LW. Talk to a lawyer, a professional in the rights of your state can give you the confidence your need to escape this toxic situation.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

sunsetmist said:


> I think this thread should be merged with the one on his lying, porn use, and ED. All of these behaviors are related. Two of your children are what, 1 and 3? Find some courage, LW. Talk to a lawyer, a professional in the rights of your state can give you the confidence your need to escape this toxic situation.


Thanks, yes the youngest are 1 and 3. Its funny I have courage in almost all other areas of life, but completely fall apart when it comes to standing up for myself in marriage. My mother (who commit suicide in 2002) was the same, so I guess I learned the lack of boundaries from her. In fact, me knowing I'm still in this situation and not having the courage to leave makes me feel quite ashamed. But me learning the boundaries through posting I'm hoping helps me get there.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Yes. He was abusive. I do not really care what he did first. The minute he refused to let you in YOUR house, THEN he went around locking all the doors while your child was in distress....
> 
> Yeah, it doesn't matter what happened before or what names you called.
> 
> ...


But here's the problem with the call the cops advice. In this situation you have a he said she said and the cops deal with this all the time. Usually they will check for weapons in the house try to read the situation and make sure things are deescalated, before getting the locked out party back into the house. However in this situation you have the complicating factor for the OP that she threatened to take the kids and leave. The problem with this is one parent taking the kids and running off against the other parents will could be considered kidnapping. 

Is this husband a manipulative and abusive tool, sure sounds like it, but given this seems to be heading towards divorce, making things worse by calling the cops and as a result having a police report with that key detail being officially documented could have bad consequences down the line. Now if he refused in the end to let her in she would have had no option but to call the police, but OP in the future given you are thinking divorce you need to be very careful to protect yourself from your husband, but also from your own anger and don't do or say anything that can and will be used against you down the road. 

Sounds to me like your husband is a narcissist, he lacks the ability to see any fault in his actions. You should try to document all abuse of any kind record him if at all possible save any texts etc. 

I think it's safe to assume a divorce is going to get very nasty for you so you should start preparing for it well in advance.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> Thank you for your response. It helps to know where the line is regarding the house. If one felt afraid of the spouses anger, is there right to lock the doors?


Pffffft. Oh please. He was 'afraid' of your anger? 

No.

He found an upper hand (you deciding to come back in) and he USED it to gain further control. I suspect he's done such things your entire marriage.

Go get this book today and read it all the way through.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

WOW! I would of been tempted to break a window. But then you would look "bad". I would of definately called the cops.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

happyhusband0005 said:


> This is how calling the cops would go down in this situation.
> 
> Cops arrive you tell them what happened and they knock on the door.
> 
> ...


I agree, but it ALSO would have the effect of informing her husband that she's not going to be his patsy anymore and if anything escalates, she is not too cowed to call the cops. It just might keep him from escalating the anger.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Lost Wife said:


> Okay thank you. Is fear of physical abuse the only reason to lock the door? Wanting to check my own actions of the past. The one time I kept him locked out (I had locked it behind him a few times, but always immediately unlocked it) I was fearful because I didn't know what he'd do, verbal, physical or otherwise. It was a big scary question mark. So if I was wrong there I'd like to know as well.
> 
> And I hear you on the cops being useful in those instances. As I grow confident of where those boundaries are, I will more likely recognize when they're really needed and not doubt myself.


The reason I laid out this situation the way I did is I expect your husband would paint the situation as you were the aggressor and he was just protecting himself and the kids from you in your current mental state blah blah blah. The problem is, from how you describe him, your husband lives in his own reality where he believes he does nothing wrong so when the cops show off he's going to seem very believable to the cops. This is why documenting things is so important. Things are likely to get worse before your legally separated so you need to have some evidence if you need to leave with the kids and file for some kind of temporary protective order.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Sounds to me like your husband is a narcissist, he lacks the ability to see any fault in his actions. You should try to document all abuse of any kind record him if at all possible save any texts etc.


Funny you mention this, a year or so ago, I got him to take some online personality tests (I was taking some myself to try and figure what the hell was going on with my life) and asked him to take some too. He scored super high in narcissism, and so I asked him to take more, and surprisingly he did, and scored extremely high in all of them. 

I mean, they were just online tests and not a real diagnosis, but the stuff I read online about narcissists fit a lot of what i'm experiencing. My father did as well, so it'd make sense I'm now with a man like that.

And yes, he would seem very believable to the cops. He's extremely charming and convincing when he lies (I have another thread on some of his lying issues).


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> Thanks, yes the youngest are 1 and 3. Its funny I have courage in almost all other areas of life, but completely fall apart when it comes to standing up for myself in marriage. My mother (who commit suicide in 2002) was the same, so I guess I learned the lack of boundaries from her. In fact, me knowing I'm still in this situation and not having the courage to leave makes me feel quite ashamed. But me learning the boundaries through posting I'm hoping helps me get there.


I'm in the exact same boat, although with a husband not quite as mean or abusive. My therapist asked me last week, about standing up for myself: what's the worst that can happen if you tell him you're unhappy about ABC? He yells? He avoids you? He leaves? As long as he's not going to physically hurt you, the rest are just words.

Now, if your H is punching things, I'm going to tell you what I tell all abuse victims: Pack a bag for you and your kids. Keep it in the trunk of your car. Take money out of the bank and keep it somewhere safe. Keep your keys in your pocket at all times. That way, if he goes over the top, you can immediately grab the kids and run. You see now that the reason this got messed up is you left, but you left the kids with him. Next time, take them with you. 

Now, for the divorce, I take it he knows? If he's ratcheting up the emotion and/or violence, I suggest you start moving things, a little at a time, to a friend's house or a family member's house. A bag of clothes here, important keepsakes there, vital documents...start getting it all out slowly so he doesn't notice. 

And if he has control of the money, every time you go grocery shopping, buy a Visa gift card for $20, $50, whatever. Start getting those together and keep them someplace else. He sounds like the kind of man who's going to try to 'starve' you financially into staying. Getting this money out now will keep you from having to crawl back to him.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

turnera said:


> Pffffft. Oh please. He was 'afraid' of your anger?
> 
> No.
> 
> ...


This was my experience as well. For 14 years he seemed to constantly want to force his version of events on me (almost always over the feelings I'm trying to express at the time) and agree with him. This was the first time I was in situation where I felt I HAD to. I knew I was not acting as he said I was, and felt he was using his fear of my anger to make me listen and agree finally.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> Funny you mention this, a year or so ago, I got him to take some online personality tests (I was taking some myself to try and figure what the hell was going on with my life) and asked him to take some too. He scored super high in narcissism, and so I asked him to take more, and surprisingly he did, and scored extremely high in all of them.
> 
> I mean, they were just online tests and not a real diagnosis, but the stuff I read online about narcissists fit a lot of what i'm experiencing. My father did as well, so it'd make sense I'm now with a man like that.
> 
> And yes, he would seem very believable to the cops. He's extremely charming and convincing when he lies (I have another thread on some of his lying issues).


I've told my husband three times now that he's a narcissist. He just nods and says 'I know.'

But makes no effort to find out more or to change. 

Cos they can't. 

Cos they're narcissists.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

turnera said:


> I'm in the exact same boat, although with a husband not quite as mean or abusive. My therapist asked me last week, about standing up for myself: what's the worst that can happen if you tell him you're unhappy about ABC? He yells? He avoids you? He leaves? As long as he's not going to physically hurt you, the rest are just words.
> 
> Now, if your H is punching things, I'm going to tell you what I tell all abuse victims: Pack a bag for you and your kids. Keep it in the trunk of your car. Take money out of the bank and keep it somewhere safe. Keep your keys in your pocket at all times. That way, if he goes over the top, you can immediately grab the kids and run. You see now that the reason this got messed up is you left, but you left the kids with him. Next time, take them with you.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your input. My situation is a little different. For one, I have literally zero friends of family and therefore no one to go to or talk to. This isn't because of him. Mostly because I'm an introvert by nature, and also having young kids, and dealing with the extra workload of him having severe ADHD made it so I had zero energy left to nurture any kind of close friendship.

One of the main reasons I have trouble taking a stand, is because of our particular work/finances situation. Currently, we both work at home as partners on the same projects, but because of his ADHD, his severe difficulties finishing his work means we're always on the cusp of being completely broke (and we have zero savings). I give him all my time in the day to take care of everything else, just to get him to do the bare minimum and make sure we have money for rent, food, etc. 

ANY time I upset him, he will just not work, period. He'll go lay down and take a nap, or some other things. And unfortunately, because my part on these projects consist of the first half of the work, I rely on him to complete the rest to get paid. And so I fear upsetting him too much to the point he stops working and I can't support my kids.

I am taking baby steps towards more independence, but it's hard when we're completely broke and I have two very little ones. But I did open my own bank account and am squirreling what I can into it (I'm up to a whopping $60...mansion and the easy life here I come... ) trying to build up an emergency fund at least.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

I don't know what happened that set you off, but if you were yelling in front of the kids, then storming out of the house, then I'd probably lock you out too, until I knew you were calm enough to re-enter the house. But that's not knowing what preceeded. Everyone has a breaking point.

Either way, I disagree it warrants calling the cops, its not like he was physically abusing you or threatening you, he was just being a ****head at most. At best, they would have showed and it would have been a debaucle and you would have wasted their time.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

That's a sad story. I don't want to speak badly about your husband other than to say that he did not treat you as a wife should be treated. He treated you as his subordinate.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I don't know what happened that set you off, but if you were yelling in front of the kids, then storming out of the house, then I'd probably lock you out too, until I knew you were calm enough to re-enter the house. But that's not knowing what preceeded. Everyone has a breaking point.
> 
> Either way, I disagree it warrants calling the cops, its not like he was physically abusing you or threatening you, he was just being a ****head at most. At best, they would have showed and it would have been a debaucle and you would have wasted their time.



Thank you for the post! Regardless of the hurtful stuff he was doing before, I was the one who escalated to yelling, etc. So that's on me. I yelled probably 4 sentences at him, and stopped immediately to leave to calm down when one of my kids came into the room. So if he truly felt afraid I'd come back and yell in front of the kids, I don't blame him for initially locking the door. I would want to protect my kids first in that situation no matter what.

It's when I told him I was calm, he claimed in order to "prove" I was calm by agreeing that he did nothing, and that his opinions were right, in order to be let back in, did I feel it crossed into an abusive situation on his part. I don't think trying to control ones thoughts and opinions is ever right. And the fact he was using the ability to re-enter my house and be with my kids, scared me quite a bit. He vehemently denies it's abuse to do that, or did it at all, despite the proof I showed him in text. So I just want to know if that in-particular crossed a line.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

How old were you when your mom committed suicide? Have you had therapy? You need help to deal with 'shame', boundaries, neglect, etc.

Shame is distress and/or humiliation as a result of consciousness of foolish or wrong behavior. It leaves one feeling rejected, worthless. (Guilt is believing that you have done something bad.) Shame is believing that you ARE bad. Shame believes that you are not loved because you not lovable. Shame carries the sense that there is nothing you can do to purge its toxic presence. This is false. You are lovable, have value and worth. Off my soapbox now....


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## FalCod (Dec 6, 2017)

I'm going to chime in with everyone else. Calling the police was the appropriate thing to do once he refused to let you in to your house. If you didn't want to go that route, calling a locksmith would have also worked. Or even calling a neighbor and asking for help. What you should not have done is negotiate with him when he was holding your home and children hostage to have power over you.

You guys have serious problems and need to get them resolved. If that's divorce, so be it. Either way, you have to learn to be civil to each other.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

sunsetmist said:


> How old were you when she committed suicide? Have you had therapy? You need help to deal with 'shame', boundaries, neglect, etc.
> 
> Shame is distress and/or humiliation as a result of consciousness of foolish or wrong behavior. It leaves one feeling rejected, worthless. (Guilt is believing that you have done something bad.) Shame is believing that you ARE bad. Shame believes that you are not loved because you not lovable. Shame carries the sense that there is nothing you can do to purge its toxic presence. This is false. *You are lovable, have value and worth.* Off my soapbox now....


Please stay on your soapbox. I love to hear people exercising compassion and empathy for someone else.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> she threatened to take the kids and leave.


I think you misread. She said she took her keys to leave, went to her car and then she came back because she had left the kids and didn't want to leave them there. So no....she didn't threaten to take the kids.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Lost Wife said:


> Thank you for the post! Regardless of the hurtful stuff he was doing before, I was the one who escalated to yelling, etc. So that's on me. I yelled probably 4 sentences at him, and stopped immediately to leave to calm down when one of my kids came into the room. So if he truly felt afraid I'd come back and yell in front of the kids, I don't blame him for initially locking the door. I would want to protect my kids first in that situation no matter what.
> 
> It's when I told him I was calm, he claimed in order to "prove" I was calm by agreeing that he did nothing, and that his opinions were right, in order to be let back in, did I feel it crossed into an abusive situation on his part. I don't think trying to control ones thoughts and opinions is ever right. And the fact he was using the ability to re-enter my house and be with my kids, scared me quite a bit. He vehemently denies it's abuse to do that, or did it at all, despite the proof I showed him in text. So I just want to know if that in-particular crossed a line.


Yea, if your version is correct and you were calm then he went overboard. I don't think I'd call it abuse if it was just a one-off. But if its a pattern of him trying to control your opinions and thoughts then its not good.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Lost Wife said:


> Thank you for the post! Regardless of the hurtful stuff he was doing before, I was the one who escalated to yelling, etc. So that's on me. I yelled probably 4 sentences at him, and stopped immediately to leave to calm down when one of my kids came into the room. So if he truly felt afraid I'd come back and yell in front of the kids, I don't blame him for initially locking the door. I would want to protect my kids first in that situation no matter what.
> 
> It's when I told him I was calm, he claimed in order to "prove" I was calm by agreeing that he did nothing, and that his opinions were right, in order to be let back in, did I feel it crossed into an abusive situation on his part. I don't think trying to control ones thoughts and opinions is ever right. And the fact he was using the ability to re-enter my house and be with my kids, scared me quite a bit. He vehemently denies it's abuse to do that, or did it at all, despite the proof I showed him in text. So I just want to know if that in-particular crossed a line.


Don't get sucked in by the BS. You yelled 4 sentences then left to calm down. There was no excuse for locking you out. None.

Don't swallow the Reddit rhetoric.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its a good point and it is complicated. 

It is OK to lock the door on someone who represents an immediate threat - and its not clear who gets to decide when the threat is real. My feeling is that in general that if the threat is sever enough to lock someone out, then it is sever enough to call the police. After all, what if they do find a way in, break a window etc?

It is easy though to get gender biased in this and forget that it is possible that he legitimately felt you might harm him. (had you ever threatened physical harm before, or physically pushed, hit, etc ?)

From lots of things, I don't think that was the case, but I wasn't there. 

I still think divorce is the only option at this point, things are too far gone. 





Lost Wife said:


> Thank you for your response. It helps to know where the line is regarding the house. If one felt afraid of the spouses anger, is there right to lock the doors? If so, at what point should they unlock it? Just trying to break it down into technical terms to understand it clearly. I had locked him out a few times over the years when I was afraid of his anger, but only once during a particularly scary episode did I ask him say he was calm before coming in. He is likening my behavior to that instance.
> 
> I used to think there was no physical risk, but as divorce rears closer he seems to be losing his grip on himself. For instance while arguing over messages when he was in a different part of the house, I heard him completely lose control and start hitting stuff in the room. But hasn't displayed that kind of stuff towards me or the kids, and had since apologized. Kind of. There's so much crap in this marriage I wouldn't even know where to start. I just want to make damned sure I'm not being one-sided and unfair before I decide to rip my family apart and hurt my kids by doing so.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

In the same situation I would have just called the police. 

Locking a souse out is definite abuse in my estimate, but there is always context.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

FalCod said:


> I'm going to chime in with everyone else. Calling the police was the appropriate thing to do once he refused to let you in to your house. If you didn't want to go that route, calling a locksmith would have also worked. Or even calling a neighbor and asking for help. What you should not have done is negotiate with him when he was holding your home and children hostage to have power over you.
> 
> You guys have serious problems and need to get them resolved. If that's divorce, so be it. Either way, you have to learn to be civil to each other.



Hi, I quite agree we do need to learn to be civil, or get divorced. Over 14 years it hasn't only been him who has behaved poorly. It took me awhile to own my part of it all and start changing my reactions and behaviors. Especially over the past 2 years I've been implementing change, and taking better control of myself. Unfortunately, it seems the more quickly and easily I own when I'm wrong, that's where the conversation will stop. At that point, he will most likely ignore anything he contributed and say since I agreed I did wrong, I am the only bad one. If I then try to speak my side of things, he'll interject that I'm being one-sided and need to get "Off my high horse". While my learning to be a better person has helped me grow, it seems it's also given him another way to justify and deny his own behaviors.

So yes, there's some serious issues and must change. Just harder than I ever anticipated to actually do


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

With him locking you out of the house, AND your kids being in the house. I would of been thru the roof! You don't keep my kids from me! 

This man is crazy.

He needs some professional help.

He tryed to punish you.

And with the way this is escalating, you don't EVER want to leave the house without your kids.

He could say you drove away and abandoned them.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

Ok sorry to hear you don't have family or friends.

Contact your nearest womens shelter.

See what help they can offer you.

Make a plan.

What do you want?

Will he agree to help/counseling?

Does he want a happy family/good marriage?

If he doesn't want to make any attempt to fix the marriage, are you safe/ok staying with him?

Are the kids?

WHat behaviours is he modeling for them?


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Lost Wife said:


> If I then try to speak my side of things, he'll interject that I'm being one-sided and need to get "Off my high horse". While my learning to be a better person has helped me grow, it seems it's also given him another way to justify and deny his own behaviors.


He can't keep up with you. He doesn't want you to grow and mature and evolve. Because that means he will have to. He likes things just the way they are. So he can continue to be a jerk to you. You are out of his league.

Sure,people yell when they fight. Say things they regret. Should it happen? Of course not. But it's a whole other level to lock you out of your own home, away from your children and demand that you admit wrongdoings that were his fault. That IS abuse.

Carry on with your plan to divorce.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

My sense is that you somehow still expect your marriage to improve. He is a narcissist and since you have studied this you should know what to expect and he will not change, be logical, think of anyone but himself.

Again, you have a lot on you--too much stress. Your four children sense the ever-present tension and deserve better.

There are sliding-fee scale resources, legal aide, safe houses, churches, other groups that can help you.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

I am beyond enraged reading your post! To answer your question. This man is VERY abusive! Controlling, manipulative. 

Document all this, times, dates.

+ Whatever else you can think of.

Make sure your side of the fence is squeaky clean.


The business, this throws a monkey wrench in things.

How good is state aid to help (temporarily) financially?

How much are section 8/reduced income apartments?

Can your home based business be put on hold?

Can you do it without him?


Not sure about your state or it's laws. But just some ideas. 

If this goes to custody court, you need to look like you can provide a safe and stable home for the kids.

If you are working p/t and the state helps with the rest, the judge would probably be ok with that. Your hubby may have to pay child support. 

Are you close to the 10 year marriage mark?


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Lost Wife said:


> Hello, apologies for the length. I'm trying to paint a thorough picture. Husband and I have been together for 14 years and have 4 children. We have a lot of big issues. I'm on the brink of divorce and trying to take the time to sort everything, and take a deep look at it all before making my final decision.
> 
> So I'm needing help discerning this one instance which occurred last week because it affected me greatly. I have difficulty figuring out my own boundaries, or labeling abusive behaviors in the past (as much of what I've experienced is that hard-to-pinpoint emotional abuse).
> 
> ...



This sounds abusive but you have not been clear on how this all started. You said he was saying things but you did not specify what and why it made you want to leave. i get the feeling we are only hearing one side of the story. What actually did he do to set you off to storm out of the house?


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

Lost Wife said:


> Thanks, yes the youngest are 1 and 3. Its funny I have courage in almost all other areas of life, but completely fall apart when it comes to standing up for myself in marriage. My mother (who commit suicide in 2002) was the same, so I guess I learned the lack of boundaries from her. In fact, me knowing I'm still in this situation and not having the courage to leave makes me feel quite ashamed. But me learning the boundaries through posting I'm hoping helps me get there.


Just because that is all you have seen modeled does not mean that that is all that you are capable of being.

You WILL stand up for yourself and your kids. 

You WILL teach your kids to do the same.

You are a strong woman. 

You WILL fight for your kids.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

sunsetmist said:


> My sense is that you somehow still expect your marriage to improve. He is a narcissist and since you have studied this you should know what to expect and he will not change, be logical, think of anyone but himself.
> 
> Again, you have a lot on you--too much stress. Your four children sense the ever-present tension and deserve better.
> 
> There are sliding-fee scale resources, legal aide, safe houses, churches, other groups that can help you.


I love the diagnosis on an internet forum. Everyone seems to be married to a narcissist, because there are never two sides to a story.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Everyone seems to be married to a narcissist, because there are never two sides to a story.


You're right. There aren't two sides of the story when it comes to a narcissist; there is their side, which is always right and the rest of the world's side, which is always wrong.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> ANY time I upset him, he will just not work, period. He'll go lay down and take a nap, or some other things.


Wow. I can list off at least a dozen times I've asked my husband to help with something in the last 10 years where he looks at me, turns around without a word, and goes to lie down on the couch and go to sleep. The other times, I'll ask for some specific help and he'll go out into the woods behind our house and work on some imaginary project out there, like creating a creek. "some other things"


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> I yelled probably 4 sentences at him, and stopped immediately to leave to calm down when one of my kids came into the room.


Oh no! Four whole sentences! He must have been terrified!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> It's when I told him I was calm, he claimed in order to "prove" I was calm by agreeing that he did nothing, and that his opinions were right, in order to be let back in, did I feel it crossed into an abusive situation on his part. I don't think trying to control ones thoughts and opinions is ever right. And the fact he was using the ability to re-enter my house and be with my kids, scared me quite a bit. He vehemently denies it's abuse to do that, or did it at all, despite the proof I showed him in text. So I just want to know if that in-particular crossed a line.


This is most definitely mental abuse. Read that book I linked. You can get it online.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Lost Wife said:


> Hello, apologies for the length. I'm trying to paint a thorough picture. Husband and I have been together for 14 years and have 4 children. We have a lot of big issues. I'm on the brink of divorce and trying to take the time to sort everything, and take a deep look at it all before making my final decision.
> 
> So I'm needing help discerning this one instance which occurred last week because it affected me greatly. I have difficulty figuring out my own boundaries, or labeling abusive behaviors in the past (as much of what I've experienced is that hard-to-pinpoint emotional abuse).
> 
> ...


Gaslighting ma'am and you are starting to believe it. When that happens to me I simply call a spade a spade. I say you are gaslighting and lying to try and have zero accountability for your bad behavior. People will get mad, kick and scream at times, but I call a spade a spade.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Lost Wife said:


> Funny you mention this, a year or so ago, I got him to take some online personality tests (I was taking some myself to try and figure what the hell was going on with my life) and asked him to take some too. He scored super high in narcissism, and so I asked him to take more, and surprisingly he did, and scored extremely high in all of them.
> 
> I mean, they were just online tests and not a real diagnosis, but the stuff I read online about narcissists fit a lot of what i'm experiencing. My father did as well, so it'd make sense I'm now with a man like that.
> 
> And yes, he would seem very believable to the cops. He's extremely charming and convincing when he lies (I have another thread on some of his lying issues).


Above referenced... @UpsideDownWorld11


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

aine said:


> This sounds abusive but you have not been clear on how this all started. You said he was saying things but you did not specify what and why it made you want to leave. i get the feeling we are only hearing one side of the story. What actually did he do to set you off to storm out of the house?


Sure, it's just complicated, as our lives are set up differently than most people. I didn't want to plop even more stuff in the thread, and no matter what he did, I escalated things to yelling in the first place. But I'll try to explain (remember....you asked for it!  )

Once upon a time...  I mean, to try to set up our lives, we work together in the same field (creative in nature), on the same projects, at home. I do the first half of the project with my particular talents, he finishes the project with his particular talents, then we get paid. Neither of us can do the others job. Under normal circumstances this means half the day one of us watches the kids/takes care of the house and errands while the other works, then we switch. This went well for many years and we had a great career together for a long time. However in the past few years he got slower and slower in finishing his work, and in the past several years went about 1/8 the speed he used to. We got to the point where we couldn't pay for rent, food, or even diapers, as no matter how much work I completed, to get paid, he had to finish his end.

After awhile we discovered he has ADHD, and that if most likely effected his work (He has been medication and getting therapy for awhile to help with it). I responded to this by getting faster and more efficient at my work, and undertake more of the domestic responsibilities in order to help give him more time in the day and learn to work around those issues. I thought I was being a good supportive wife. But his speed stayed the same. So over the years, this got worse and worse, with me giving more and taking on more in an attempt to get his work back on track. For the past year or two, it's been him having about 12 hours a day for work up in his office while I do everything else, and I have 1-2 hours later in the day where he'll come down and keep an eye on the kids, and some housework (which only occurred part of the time), so I can try to do roughly 6-8 hours of work in that time. 

So I've been struggling a lot, undertaking 95% of the domestic chores, all the bill paying and finances (he didn't pay the bills when he has any he was responsible for so I undertook those too) as well as keep up with my own work. I kept this up through 2 difficult pregnancies, and in this past year, through some major health issues (Pulmonary Embolism after birth). My own career is suffering, because I don't have time to do my best anymore, or go for those bigger projects like I used to. 

I got so overwhelmed last year I had my first panic attack and went to the ER thinking I was dying. It was a crazy experience. I had no idea it felt like that. Anyway, the doctor suggested I delegate some of my responsibilities to my husband, and I just told her I couldn't, because if I did, he would get almost no work done, and we wouldn't be able to afford basic living expenses. It was rough admitting to myself I had gotten myself into such a corner.

Finally I had enough, and said "Look, I'm doing way too much. I need more help, can we please set up some kind of guideline so I can give you some of my responsibilities, and a schedule so I KNOW I have dedicated time I can expect your support, and time for my work. And to please make it non negotiable (as he often took the little time I had to catch on on work too) so I know I can depend on it?" He seemed wholeheartedly fine with this, promised he's give me that time, and was eager to help. But that time we agreed upon for helping me out was only an hour in the mornings, and two at night, which was still a lot for me to handle. But I was excited to have it be a CERTAINTY I'd have that time for help and work, so I agreed.

But then, over the last 6 months, despite his promise, he started taking that little support and time I had seemingly whenever he felt like it...Which usually followed us having an argument and he was upset with me. I started realizing he was punishing me by withholding support, and time for work. Sometimes I'd find out he'd just be sleeping instead of working, all while I'm killing myself doing everything else. If I complained, it became how I'm controlling him by telling him what to do. I told Him I'm trying to get him to keep his word.

Three weeks ago i took a major stand. I told him I felt like he was disrespecting how hard I was working for him and the family when he withdrew support whenever he had his own reasons to, and that it utterly devastated me he didn't consider how much that would hurt me. I told him I felt punished for upsetting him in an argument (which was usually just me disagreeing with him) and how that wasn't okay to fear withdrawal/refusal of support just because his feelings were hurt. And that no matter how upset with him I was, I would uphold my side of the agreement because we had kids to take care of, and taking care of them mattered most.

He agreed again...wholeheartedly. It seemed anyway. Since then I uncovered that he had been lying to me for several years about his porn use (which is in another thread). I was devastated at his level of deception. We had had a really rough time. I had to withhold my own deep pain because whenever i tried to talk to him about it, he would start arguing, or withdrawing support again which was all hurtful. And I just didn't want to deal with that. So I kept trying to keep things normal as possible.

FINALLY we come the other day. We had not been fighting recently. "Normal" day. We wake up, first thing he does is tell me (this is all over text, we have a 3 floor house, his office at the top so it's easier to communicate that way) he didn't get his work done the day before, therefore he won't help with the kids/house that morning so he could catch up. That really hurt and upset me very deeply. I asked him to not refuse helping because I really needed it that day and to please keep his word. He just kept arguing with me, saying he could do whatever he wanted so I told him "fine, stay up there (in your office) then". Then he tells me he's going to lie down for a little bit too. I told him I had a LOT of work to finish, and that if napping was what I was killing myself for, I'd rather he take the kids so I could get my own work done. He kept arguing and saying the usual hurtful remarks. I'm controlling, I'm one-sided. And the beloved "Get off your high-horse" comment. 

That's when I went up and yelled at him. I guess the hurt I had been keeping in from it all boiled over. I told him that he could NOT treat me that way, that the agreement was I'd take on way more than my fair share in exchange for him getting his work done, and that he was going to take the over with the kids and house now so I could work or do whatever the hell I wanted for once. I don't remember, but I may have thrown in bad name here or there. So again, that's all on me. My 2nd eldest came into the room, and thats when I snapped to and left. I told him to take over with the kids and that I was leaving. 

Well... there you go!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I love the diagnosis on an internet forum. Everyone seems to be married to a narcissist, because there are never two sides to a story.


Actually, if you've ever lived with a narcissist, it becomes quite easy to spot the signs. It's a mental condition and, therefore, quite predictable.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

OP, you owe no one here any more explanation. One would need to be so steeped in redpillery that they are intentionally blind not to see what is going on here.

Your husband is selfish, lazy, manipulative, cruel, gas-lighting, and emotionally abusive. He has escalated with this latest little episode, and he WILL try it again.

Document, document, document.

No healthy person would spin this in his favor.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

God, I feel like you're writing my story.


Lost Wife said:


> Under normal circumstances this means half the day one of us watches the kids/takes care of the house and errands while the other works, then we switch.


The first 20 years of marriage, I did my full-time job, went to college at night, raised a kid, and was his 'assistant' to his work, supporting him in every spare minute - traveling, creating marketing material, etc.



> in the past several years went about 1/8 the speed he used to. We got to the point where we couldn't pay for rent, food, or even diapers, as no matter how much work I completed, to get paid, he had to finish his end.


The worse my H's career went, the less he contributed, so I picked up the slack, giving up my dream job to earn more money cos he wasn't, moving to new jobs 3 more times to earn more money. Til I found his $100,000 debt. 



> I responded to this by getting faster and more efficient at my work, and undertake more of the domestic responsibilities in order to help give him more time in the day and learn to work around those issues. I thought I was being a good supportive wife. But his speed stayed the same. So over the years, this got worse and worse, with me giving more and taking on more in an attempt to get his work back on track. For the past year or two, it's been him having about 12 hours a day for work up in his office while I do everything else, and I have 1-2 hours later in the day where he'll come down and keep an eye on the kids, and some housework (which only occurred part of the time), so I can try to do roughly 6-8 hours of work in that time.


I'm working side jobs, doing 95% of all housework, still helping him with his job, while he does whatever he wants (like your H's 12 hours in the office). 



> So I've been struggling a lot, undertaking 95% of the domestic chores, all the bill paying and finances (he didn't pay the bills when he has any he was responsible for so I undertook those too) as well as keep up with my own work. I kept this up through 2 difficult pregnancies. My own career is suffering, because I don't have time to do my best anymore, or go for those bigger projects like I used to.


Between having to work 60-70 hours at my real job, helping with his work, doing all the side jobs to pay bills, doing all the housework, and the house falling apart because he's 'depressed' and can't be bothered, I'm currently 'written up' at work for not doing a good enough job. I took over the bills when I found his $100,000 debt, and was getting somewhere in working it down, when he changed work again and now I'm lucky to get money from him - and it's always someone else's fault, never his. I had to ask my brother for a bail-out of all the high-interest credit cards last year but I still have to pay him back each month. Having panic attacks for the first time in my life. So overwhelmed that I can't concentrate at work. And H just feels sorry for himself.



> the doctor suggested I delegate some of my responsibilities to my husband, and I just told her I couldn't, because if I did, he would get almost no work done, and we wouldn't be able to afford basic living expenses. It was rough admitting to myself I had gotten myself into such a corner.


My second IC told me to ask my H to take just ONE chore off my shoulders; or else I'd have a nervous breakdown. I did. He refused. And like an idiot, I just carried on. 



> I told him I felt punished for upsetting him in an argument (which was usually just me disagreeing with him)


I'm not allowed to disagree with my H or he blows up (just like my dad did). I can't even argue about which screwdriver he asked for. 



> He agreed again...wholeheartedly. It seemed anyway.


When I finally took a stand and said I was leaving, he agreed immediately to go to therapy; I'd been asking for it for 20 years. He went. Three times. Nodded yes at the MC, came home, and pretended like it never happened. And then just stopped showing up.

What's the common denominator in my whole scenario - and yours? It's that the woman just keeps heaping more and more and more on her own shoulders to keep the man from 'getting upset.' 

And what's the solution? For the woman to STOP. 

I don't know what you guys do, but SURELY you can find some other work out there in the world doing what you do. You can't be worse off than you are now. You say creative, I'm a writer/editor - so all my side work is done remotely, online. If I wanted to, I could do that full time and make a living. Start finding a way to release his grasp on you. Make your living without depending on him. That's what is killing you.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@Lostwife, 

May I refer you to one of my favorite websites? it is Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse site and I love the site because the mascot is a kitty and it doesn't feel scary there. 

However, if you read around on the site, you can learn a LOT about what is and is not abuse. For example, here is a page on Signs of Verbal and Emotional Abuse. Here is a page on Boundaries. Good stuff! And although none of the pages on the site will be able to definitively answer all your questions, what you will see is that as you read along, you'll be able to see it and identify it a little better when it comes up. 

I was a lot like you, in that "boundaries" never made much sense to me, and my exH never balled up his fist and hit me so it didn't even cross my mind that he might be abusive. Imagine my surprise to discover that you could abuse someone in ways OTHER than physical! Imagine my surprise to discover that pushing, punching the wall by my head, and kicking the dog were also physical abuse--just not of ME! 

In a nutshell, I think something is abuse if it is a threat to make you do something you don't want to do, and if it happens like a pattern, not as a one-time or very, VERY occasional thing. Here's why: we all get angry. We all say things we regret. But someone who is healthy a) recognizes their anger when it's still in the "this is not okay with me" stage and there are a ton of options, b) vocalizes what's not okay and then respectfully requests what would make it okay, c) might rarely just be so tired or so overwhelmed that they get mad and deal with it poorly, d) reacts in anger with the intent to defend themselves, not necessarily with the intent to threaten, e) takes personal responsibility for their poor skills and works to change and do better! No one is perfect. 

However, an abuser doesn't do that. They hold anger in until it is an explosion. They DEMAND and there is no right for the other person to say no. The anger is a pattern or a habit...maybe the way they relieve their stress...and it's predictable almost. They abuse with the intent of threatening in order to get their way. And they blame others for their feelings and their actions. 

Anyway, in your specific example, we aren't there, behind closed doors, and you are. We don't know his side, and we have been here long enough to know that people often leave out salient points in order to make their side seem more reasonable. And note to self, I'm not blaming you here--I'm just saying we really can't tell because we aren't you. However, what I can say is that what you have presented sounds concerning and sounds like abuse. I would strongly recommend that you look around on Dr. Irene's site and learn. 

Oh and by the way, I don't work there and I'm not Dr. Irene  I just learned from that site myself and I like to pass it along when I can. My first marriage was to an abusive, bipolar, borderline, narcissist, and it was ROUGH...so I can empathize with how you feel...and it ended in divorce. If you need further resources, like books or websites, just let me know and I'd be happy to help. If you want to look for an abuse support group in your area, PM me and I'll see what I can find.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Why in the world would you NOT have a house key on your car keyring?? Is this a normal thing for you? 

Your husband is abusive. What he did was abusive. The sooner you get out the better.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

OK here's what you do. I've already told you to document everything make recordings if you can and save any and all text messages. Talk to a lawyer and ask what you would need to do to prepare yourself and to keep your business. Find someone who can do your husbands side the work for the business, fire you husband. Your husband will try to convince you you will not survive without him and he is responsible for the business and you can't do it alone. He'll be very sure of this and his arrogance will be his downfall. 

Once you are on your own I don't think you'll feel as crappy and overwhelmed by all the house work etc. I have a suspicion that a big part of what is stressing you out and causing panic attacks is knowing your husband is just napping when he could be helping or doing his job. I think your situation will turn out to be one where having no one to help will be less stressful than having someone who refuses to help.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

3Xnocharm said:


> Why in the world would you NOT have a house key on your car keyring?? Is this a normal thing for you?
> 
> Your husband is abusive. What he did was abusive. The sooner you get out the better.


I accidentally grabbed the stupid spare car key instead of the main one with the house keys on it. I'm getting a spare house key and putting it somewhere I can always have one now.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

turnera said:


> God, I feel like you're writing my story.
> The first 20 years of marriage, I did my full-time job, went to college at night, raised a kid, and was his 'assistant' to his work, supporting him in every spare minute - traveling, creating marketing material, etc.
> 
> The worse my H's career went, the less he contributed, so I picked up the slack, giving up my dream job to earn more money cos he wasn't, moving to new jobs 3 more times to earn more money. Til I found his $100,000 debt.
> ...


Holy crap, that does sound familiar. I'm so sorry you've gone through all that. 100k debt you didn't know about?!  Man.

I'm a writer/artist. I spent my entire life developing my talent, and it's a career I wanted my entire life. Together he and I create a product that's highly desireable. But since he's not pulling his weight, I am being faced with if it wouldn't be better working separately without him, or learning the skills he has and do it myself (I just need to learn the technical computer skills involved). But I can't offer just my skills alone if all I have is 1.5 hours a day to work. To learn his skills I'd need maybe a year of a couple hours a day to get a good grip on it, which I don't have. And I can't take more time from my husband because he's barely getting just enough done. We have rent. We have food. And I don't want to mess with that.

So for me, even if I want to divorce, I'll most likely need to stay for the time being, and save up what I can, and prepare to get projects where only I'm involved. Currently we have about 5 more months of projects lined up to finish together. After that, maybe I could line up for just myself. 

Would break my heart though. Because despite how awful it's been, we fell in love because of our mutual passion for our work. Together we made a great team for a long time, and built a name for ourselves, and created some beautiful work. I've only ever worked with him. To work without him as my partner...I know it'd be necessary but it would be heartbreaking.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

turnera said:


> Oh no! Four whole sentences! He must have been terrified!


Exactly. This guy is an A ~ Grade ~ A!!hole


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

You run the risk of him destroying your reputation in your field if you don't do something about it. I know it hurts to think of but you'd best be thinking of a regular job WITHOUT him involved.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Lost Wife said:


> Holy crap, that does sound familiar. I'm so sorry you've gone through all that. 100k debt you didn't know about?!  Man.
> 
> I'm a writer/artist. I spent my entire life developing my talent, and it's a career I wanted my entire life. Together he and I create a product that's highly desireable. But since he's not pulling his weight, I am being faced with if it wouldn't be better working separately without him, or learning the skills he has and do it myself (I just need to learn the technical computer skills involved). But I can't offer just my skills alone if all I have is 1.5 hours a day to work. To learn his skills I'd need maybe a year of a couple hours a day to get a good grip on it, which I don't have. And I can't take more time from my husband because he's barely getting just enough done. We have rent. We have food. And I don't want to mess with that.
> 
> ...


You have to think about the business side of things in purely business terms. Your story is not uncommon. 2 people go into business together, eventually one person emerges as the harder worker and the lack of equality in production causes the partnership to dissolve and they go their separate ways. Happens all the time. 

The good news for you is usually the technical side is much easier to replace than the creative side. If you move forward on your own don't try to do the technical on your own, I have no doubt you would be able to learn it, but hiring a person who can be a technical production guru will allow you to focus on what you do best and also enjoy and the work will be better for it.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

When I read that you changed your mind about driving off, calmed, and decided to go back in the house, I thought that showed a good switch in perspective. 

Reading more about what the blow-up was about, and as it didn’t seem to demonstrate anything threatening, a loving spouse in a healthier dynamic would welcome you back in to sort it out. 

My personality would likely have demonstrated how calm (and defiant) I can be, by stepping back from his demands and arranging a locksmith.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

guru.com

I've gotten a lot of writing work there. You kind of have to start at the bottom, but if you do it right, take their tests, bid a lot, you'll start building up a portfolio, completely from home and on your own time.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> You should have called the cops.


I wanted to murder her husband halfway through her story.

OP, this is really the only answer.

You are married to an unstable ***** (dog, female) that needs locked up.

Get counseling but your husband needs to go. He isn't healthy for you or your children to be around.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I think you misread. She said she took her keys to leave, went to her car and then she came back because she had left the kids and didn't want to leave them there. So no....she didn't threaten to take the kids.


For accuracy's sake, she did say this:



> At the back door I was very upset and said that if he didn't stop being abusive like this, I'd take the kids. I own that too was abusive in that I was trying to control him to let me in by threat.


 Her husband is a controlling ass. She seems to have a plan, so she knows the solution. speeding that plan up would be beneficial but probably not likely.
@Lost Wife ,
Just keep trying to complete your escape plan the best you can. If anything of this nature goes down again just walk away and diffuse the situation, and if he ever pulls the locking you out or any other bull**** like that call the cops.


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

It’s absolutely not abusive to tell someone that the consequence of their abusive behaviour they will lose access to their kids. It is a logical and reasonable consequence.

OP please make real plans to divorce. Your husband is manipulative, abusive to you, callous to your children and has lied to you your whole marriage about porn use. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

Lost Wife said:


> Sure, it's just complicated, as our lives are set up differently than most people. I didn't want to plop even more stuff in the thread, and no matter what he did, I escalated things to yelling in the first place. But I'll try to explain (remember....you asked for it!  )
> 
> Once upon a time...  I mean, to try to set up our lives, we work together in the same field (creative in nature), on the same projects, at home. I do the first half of the project with my particular talents, he finishes the project with his particular talents, then we get paid. Neither of us can do the others job. Under normal circumstances this means half the day one of us watches the kids/takes care of the house and errands while the other works, then we switch. This went well for many years and we had a great career together for a long time. However in the past few years he got slower and slower in finishing his work, and in the past several years went about 1/8 the speed he used to. We got to the point where we couldn't pay for rent, food, or even diapers, as no matter how much work I completed, to get paid, he had to finish his end.
> 
> ...




I feel so furious on your behalf. If my husband acted like that EVEN ONCE I would yell and yell and yell until his ears bled. It’s not controlling! It’s standing up for yourself and demanding respect! 

Do not go to counselling with this abusive man. He will use anything you share against you. 


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

turnera said:


> Wow. I can list off at least a dozen times I've asked my husband to help with something in the last 10 years where he looks at me, turns around without a word, and goes to lie down on the couch and go to sleep. The other times, I'll ask for some specific help and he'll go out into the woods behind our house and work on some imaginary project out there, like creating a creek. "some other things"




Why have you not left this hideous person 


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's complicated, lol. I'm working on it.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

Ugh, I just tried to speak with him...again. My brain feels like an an overcooked fried egg every single time.

So please help me decipher what this means now, in terms of what I should feel about this.

He agrees that I felt it was an abusive situation. He agrees I felt abused. He agrees that wasn't okay. He agrees to avoid that type of thing ever again. However, he draws the line at saying HE was abusive, of what HE did was actual abuse. His reasoning is because he didn't intend to make the situation about me agreeing, not blame him, etc. He just wanted to know I was calmed down, and was sorry he misspoke and it came across as something he didn't intend. So thank you guys for that 

Sounds all nice and logical so far. That's where I told him I agree he didn't intend it, and I understand and could forgive and move past it (he started tensing up in anger at that) But to feel safer I wanted to know he understood what he literally said and put me through was abusive, and so therefore he acted abusively, although unintentional. I told him if he still denied he acted abusively, I would feel like he would justify similar behaviors in the future.



> Him: "I didn't abuse you."
> 
> Me: "I understand you feel that way. Please look at these texts wher you did literally tell me I couldn't come in if I didn't agree, etc."
> 
> ...



So then he goes back to work upstairs, and we have this conversation over chat (pasted directly).



> Him: I've been trying really hard not to focus on how upsetting it is that you're focusing so much on this thing, when I don't feel like worse stuff was focused on much at all. I've been trying just to focus on your experience, but I'm reall/y starting to have a hard time wiht each time we get into this huge discussion about it.
> 
> Me: I understand how hard that must be for you
> 
> ...


So I'm left feeling confused on what to do or think here. He sounds logical, validating and caring half the time. Then it's like I hit this wall and his behavior changes.

He won't agree he was abusive, but promised to not do those behaviors in the future. Should I just accept that and move on (albeit wiser than before)? I feel uneasy that he could do what he did, see the literal proof, and still deny. It makes me feel similar behaviors will always be justified. But even if he doesn't admit it, I believe me not accepting that what he did was okay means he won't lock me out like that anymore at least. So thanks you guys 

I appreciate the input, and helping me see things more clearly. Very helpful, whether I end up divorced or not.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

That whole conversation is gaslighting and him twisting into a pretzel to avoid being accountable or "wrong." Om sure there are men who think like him who could justify his stonewalling and cyclical reasoning......but yeah, he was full of it.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abusive_power_and_control


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> That whole conversation is gaslighting and him twisting into a pretzel to avoid being accountable or "wrong." Om sure there are men who think like him who could justify his stonewalling and cyclical reasoning......but yeah, he was full of it.



Thank you. I left the conversation torn between feeling like I was wrong for holding him to what he literally did, and feeling like he was gas-lighting and I shouldn't believe that.

Part of the reason I think I'm easily persuaded, is that I have been awful to him too in the past, and I feel so horrible for it. I used to justify it to myself and never be accountable because of how horribly he was acting towards me. A year ago was a major shift for me in that, and I feel I've grown a lot in terms of managing my feelings better and being accountable for my mistakes. He always compliments me on doing a good job and how much he notices the difference. But whenever we have a discussion like this, I suddenly am not any better. It's so confusing.


I also get confused, because he says I've done way worse things to him. I know this to not be true, when I factually think about everything. But him just saying that is enough to get me to doubt my recollection of everything. I hate this.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

If this is a matter of "you did worse" scenario... why don't you all just write every single "offense" down on large pieces of paper and lay them all out onto a perverbial table?

Pick up one issue every single day and discuss a SOLUTION to that issue after explaining how you each feel about that particular problem.

Continue until every paper is dealt with.

Then consider moving forward... whatever that may be.


You will see a pattern - your H will either own how heparticipated or he will show a pattern of denying all the time.

Your decisions can be made for you - by his reactions to what needs to be dealt with.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

OP, I think you may be getting hung up on labeling and trying to get him to admit that he's abusive. Abusive people are generally very unwilling to admit to being abusive. Another question to consider is what do you hope to accomplish by getting to admit he was abusive? Do you imagine him agreeing to own that label will somehow cause him to stop behaving that way? It won't. So, why does it matter if he agrees that he's been abusive? It would change nothing about how you feel. And pushing and pushing for him to own that label seem to be doing nothing but creating added tension and confusion for you. At this point, arguing over his abusiveness, or lack of same, is doing nothing but giving him more opportunities to gas light and blame shift. 

The truth is, it doesn't really matter if he admits he was abusive. What really matters is that he's behaving in ways that you aren't okay with. Him agreeing that it's abuse, or not, is pretty irrelevant. You need to do some serious work on improving your own self esteem. Because you need to be self-assured enough to really understand that no matter what it's labeled, his behavior isn't okay with you. _And that that fact alone is enough._ You don't need this agreement or his validation for it to "really" be abuse. All you need to know is that his behavior is not acceptable to you. And you need the strength to do something about that fact.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rowan makes a good point. People who cant admit they are wrong are not going to admit they are wrong. They'll just stonewall, parse your words, hit below the belt, or try to censor your speech.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

Beach123 said:


> If this is a matter of "you did worse" scenario... why don't you all just write every single "offense" down on large pieces of paper and lay them all out onto a perverbial table?
> 
> Pick up one issue every single day and discuss a SOLUTION to that issue after explaining how you each feel about that particular problem.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much for your advice. I've never tried actually writing it all down. I know for a fact he will deny most of the things on my list as completely his fault, because after those occurrences he would eventually take responsibility for hurting me, but rarely admits that HE was actually wrong for what he did. He dances around full accountability, apologizing for all kinds of nice sounding things, but rarely has he said "You're right, what I did was not okay and completely unjustified". If he does actually say what he did was not okay, he'll wiggle in some kind of justification for it that attached me along with him as to who is at fault for his behavior.

Speaking of lists, he's tried many times verbally listing the things I've done to him before (this always in a conversation that began as me sharing my feelings about something he did), and a couple times I responded by spewing my own list back at him. That _always_ makes him pause and switch tactics, or respond by reiterating that I am/was way worse before running off, haha.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

Rowan said:


> OP, I think you may be getting hung up on labeling and trying to get him to admit that he's abusive. Abusive people are generally very unwilling to admit to being abusive. Another question to consider is what do you hope to accomplish by getting to admit he was abusive? Do you imagine him agreeing to own that label will somehow cause him to stop behaving that way? It won't. So, why does it matter if he agrees that he's been abusive? It would change nothing about how you feel. And pushing and pushing for him to own that label seem to be doing nothing but creating added tension and confusion for you. At this point, arguing over his abusiveness, or lack of same, is doing nothing but giving him more opportunities to gas light and blame shift.
> 
> The truth is, it doesn't really matter if he admits he was abusive. What really matters is that he's behaving in ways that you aren't okay with. Him agreeing that it's abuse, or not, is pretty irrelevant. You need to do some serious work on improving your own self esteem. Because you need to be self-assured enough to really understand that no matter what it's labeled, his behavior isn't okay with you. _And that that fact alone is enough._ You don't need this agreement or his validation for it to "really" be abuse. All you need to know is that his behavior is not acceptable to you. And you need the strength to do something about that fact.


Yes I do agree I'm hung up on the label. It's part me not wanting to let him skew factual things again so I don't follow him down the rabbit hole to his reality again where he's always innocent and I'm a monster. I do that very easily, and it's kept me from actually taking a final stand against it all, going for divorce, or making any major steps towards change. Like I know it wasn't okay for me, but that easily gets washed away, and before I know it I believe everything he says.

I am letting it go after this final attempt though. It is hopeless  This thread has been so useful in that I can go back and re-read that what he did wasn't okay, and remind myself.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

You don't talk a rabid dog out of rabies, you put it down.

Quit trying to rationalize with the puke burp you mistakenly married and get your legal ducks in a row to protect yourself and children in the divorce.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Lost Wife said:


> Thank you very much for your advice. I've never tried actually writing it all down. I know for a fact he will deny most of the things on my list as completely his fault, because after those occurrences he would eventually take responsibility for hurting me, but rarely admits that HE was actually wrong for what he did. He dances around full accountability, apologizing for all kinds of nice sounding things, but rarely has he said "You're right, what I did was not okay and completely unjustified". If he does actually say what he did was not okay, he'll wiggle in some kind of justification for it that attached me along with him as to who is at fault for his behavior.
> 
> Speaking of lists, he's tried many times verbally listing the things I've done to him before (this always in a conversation that began as me sharing my feelings about something he did), and a couple times I responded by spewing my own list back at him. That _always_ makes him pause and switch tactics, or respond by reiterating that I am/was way worse before running off, haha.


If he feels he is never wrong or at fault, so be it. If you feel differently, it's obvious to me that your morals and values are incompatible with his. You are just incompatible. It's time to change tactics. Don't blame him or ask him to accept responsibility. Just acknowledge that you understand his actions are justified and ok to him and those actions are incompatible with your morals and values and that you should go your separate ways and stop wasting each other's time. He would be happier with someone else who shares his morals/values and so would you. It's a win/win. State this as a reasoned conclusion, as if it's the obvious solution. Don't yell, attack or cry....just state the obvious. The results might surprise you. This is my opinion on your situation.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

OP, you cannot make headway with someone who is not willing to acknowledge wrong. Who tap dances around every declaration of fault. It is crazy-making.

I too often find myself engaged in cycles like thst....where the better you make your case, the more obtuse, passive aggressive, or downright cruel they become.

When someone knowingly hurts you....they are wrong.

Dont let him make you doubt truth.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> You don't talk a rabid dog out of rabies, you put it down.
> 
> Quit trying to rationalize with the puke burp you mistakenly married and get your legal ducks in a row to protect yourself and children in the divorce.


Thanks. Its hard not to try and rationalize with him. He was SOOOOO DIFFERENT for the first years before we were married, and I keep believing that guy's still in there. 

I ashamed that I even got into this situation. Before him, I was with an abusive man (all the types of abuses). I took a major stand and straight up left that guy. Worked hard to support myself (and my first son, who I had with that ex), started my career on my own, and thought I was so much wiser and stronger, and would NEVER fall into a situation like that again. When my current husband came along, he seemed the opposite of everything my ex was. Caring, Considerate, Responsible, Romantic, the whole kaboodle. Would _*never*_ do anything to hurt me. I finally had someone to lean and depend on to be my partner. I felt in a way, finding my husband was a reward for having been so strong to leave my abusive ex and work so hard to make my life away from him.

But I guess it was all just fake  And I can't believe I never saw through it until recently.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Lost Wife said:


> Thanks. Its hard not to try and rationalize with him. He was SOOOOO DIFFERENT for the first years before we were married, and I keep believing that guy's still in there.
> 
> I ashamed that I even got into this situation. Before him, I was with an abusive man (all the types of abuses). I took a major stand and straight up left that guy. Worked hard to support myself (and my first son, who I had with that ex), started my career on my own, and thought I was so much wiser and stronger, and would NEVER fall into a situation like that again. When my current husband came along, he seemed the opposite of everything my ex was. Caring, Considerate, Responsible, Romantic, the whole kaboodle. Would _*never*_ do anything to hurt me. I finally had someone to lean and depend on to be my partner. I felt in a way, finding my husband was a reward for having been so strong to leave my abusive ex and work so hard to make my life away from him.
> 
> But I guess it was all just fake  And I can't believe I never saw through it until recently.


You just described my second marriage to a T. Bait and switch, I swear. The man he turned out to be was NOTHING like the man I fell in love with and spent those first few years with. I left. Not one single second of regret doing so, either.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

He's basically saying "I'm sorry you feel that way." A non apology wrapped as an apology.

He's a stone wall. He will not change.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

Thanks PigglyWiggly and PersonOfInterest. And everyone else who has responded. You are right, I can't keep trying to rationalize with him, hoping he'll suddenly be different. I have noticed I tend to chase him around trying to have mutually considerate discussions and they do nothing.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Lost Wife said:


> Thank you very much for your advice. I've never tried actually writing it all down. I know for a fact he will deny most of the things on my list as completely his fault, because after those occurrences he would eventually take responsibility for hurting me, but rarely admits that HE was actually wrong for what he did. He dances around full accountability, apologizing for all kinds of nice sounding things, but rarely has he said "You're right, what I did was not okay and completely unjustified". If he does actually say what he did was not okay, he'll wiggle in some kind of justification for it that attached me along with him as to who is at fault for his behavior.
> 
> Speaking of lists, he's tried many times verbally listing the things I've done to him before (this always in a conversation that began as me sharing my feelings about something he did), and a couple times I responded by spewing my own list back at him. That _always_ makes him pause and switch tactics, or respond by reiterating that I am/was way worse before running off, haha.


Then why not try writing them all down?

Both of you need to be heard to resolve things,

You're both playing the blame game and trying to sure you're "right".

Consider letting that notion go for the idea that possibly some issues can openly be addressed.

If not, maybe you two are just not a good match.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

The way things stand you need to divorce and the only way things will change is if he changes himself and that seems highly unlikely. Filing could possibly rattle him enough to make those changes, for a while possibly for good, but why would you want to stay anyway? The way you are putting off the inevitable is hardening you towards him, so when you do finally file, even if he changes you will be all used up and done. It's all about timing.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Lost Wife said:


> Thanks PigglyWiggly and PersonOfInterest. And everyone else who has responded. You are right, I can't keep trying to rationalize with him, hoping he'll suddenly be different. I have noticed I tend to chase him around trying to have mutually considerate discussions and they do nothing.


You're making a mistake that a lot of people make. You're twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to make him hear and agree with your position. Because, you imagine, if you can say it just right, in just the perfect way, with just the right tone and just the right words, the clouds will part, the angels will sing, and he'll suddenly, finally, "get it". And, of course, once he finally understands and gets it, he'll change and stop doing things he has come to suddenly understand are hurtful to you. 

What you need to realize is that he can already hear you. He does understand. _He does get it._ What he _doesn't_ do is care enough to make the changes you want. 

You don't have a communication issue. So more or better communication won't fix it.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rowan said:


> You're making a mistake that a lot of people make. You're twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to make him hear and agree with your position. Because, you imagine, if you can say it just right, in just the perfect way, with just the right tone and just the right words, the clouds will part, the angels will sing, and he'll suddenly, finally, "get it". And, of course, once he finally understands and gets it, he'll change and stop doing things he has come to suddenly understand are hurtful to you.
> 
> What you need to realize is that he can already hear you. He does understand. _He does get it._ What he _doesn't_ do is care enough to make the changes you want.
> 
> You don't have a communication issue. So more or better communication won't fix it.


THANK YOU

This is absolutely correct. I made this same mistake for YEARS. In fact, it became such an unhealthy part of me I still do it from time to time....and it is very unhealthy (and the ass on the other end never gets it or admits it anyway).

Learn from my futility. Do not engage in circular arguments with someone who is an expert. You'll just end up more hurt....and they will NEVER apologize.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

He's not going to "get it" because he doesn't want to deal with it.

IF he gets it - that means he would be required to change things...and he's been clear - he's not doing that.


So you either accept this the way it is or you don't and leave.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> THANK YOU
> 
> This is absolutely correct. I made this same mistake for YEARS. In fact, it became such an unhealthy part of me I still do it from time to time....and it is very unhealthy (and the ass on the other end never gets it or admits it anyway).
> 
> Learn from my futility. Do not engage in circular arguments with someone who is an expert. You'll just end up more hurt....and they will NEVER apologize.



I did it too, for several years, with my then-husband. Until I finally realized that the problem wasn't that he didn't know or didn't understand, but that he didn't care to behave differently. And that I was being controlling by trying to change him, when he clearly didn't want to change. I finally had to let go of that controlling impulse and learn to set and enforce boundaries for _myself_. It became, then, not a case of what he should do, but of what I was willing to tolerate or not. 

The only person you can control is yourself, and trying to figure out ways to make/convince a partner to change is both unhealthy and ineffective.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Rowan said:


> I did it too, for several years, with my then-husband. Until I finally realized that the problem wasn't that he didn't know or didn't understand, but that he didn't care to behave differently. And that I was being controlling by trying to change him, when he clearly didn't want to change. I finally had to let go of that controlling impulse and learn to set and enforce boundaries for _myself_. It became, then, not a case of what he should do, but of what I was willing to tolerate or not.
> 
> *The only person you can control is yourself*, and trying to figure out ways to make/convince a partner to change is both unhealthy and ineffective.


Ramen to that! 

I won't give an inch if I think someone is trying to control or manipulate me. My wife is the same way which is something I admire about her.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

..


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

personofinterest said:


> That whole conversation is gaslighting and him twisting into a pretzel to avoid being accountable or "wrong." Om sure there are men who think like him who could justify his stonewalling and cyclical reasoning......but yeah, he was full of it.


My H, who as you know is a lot like yours, cannot STAND to be seen as doing anything wrong. He goes absolutely bonkers. If a person at a community event tells people that he was acting crazy or was rude or was at fault...oh my god. He will spend TEN hours dissecting the event. Over and over and over and over. He will go back to those people and 'work' them until they see it his way, through charm or kissing up or logic or wearing them down. 

Think of Trump. The ultimate narcissist. His whole term has been hell for him because he expected adulation, like all the people who worked for him all those years pretended to have, so they could get the good paycheck. But now he's in public and he can't force people to 'like' him and it's eating him alive. It's odd watching him because he does the same things my husband does when he's called out or questioned.

So understand that a key tenet of your H's life is to be 'seen' - in all ways - as good or right or valuable. He simply cannot bear to be seen as less than perfect. So by you pressing on a 'label' for him, if he's a true narcissist, he's clinically unable to give you that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> Part of the reason I think I'm easily persuaded, is that I have been awful to him too in the past, and I feel so horrible for it. I used to justify it to myself and never be accountable because of how horribly he was acting towards me. A year ago was a major shift for me in that, and I feel I've grown a lot in terms of managing my feelings better and being accountable for my mistakes. *He always compliments me on doing a good job and how much he notices the difference. But whenever we have a discussion like this, I suddenly am not any better. It's so confusing.
> *
> 
> I also get confused, because *he says I've done way worse things to him*. I know this to *not be true, when I factually think about everything*. But him just saying that is enough to get me to doubt my recollection of everything. I hate this.


Tell me exactly what you did that was horrible. Then I have some things to say about the bolded stuff.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

PigglyWiggly said:


> If he feels he is never wrong or at fault, so be it. If you feel differently, it's obvious to me that your morals and values are incompatible with his. You are just incompatible. It's time to change tactics. Don't blame him or ask him to accept responsibility. Just acknowledge that you understand his actions are justified and ok to him and those actions are incompatible with your morals and values and that you should go your separate ways and stop wasting each other's time. He would be happier with someone else who shares his morals/values and so would you. It's a win/win. State this as a reasoned conclusion, as if it's the obvious solution. Don't yell, attack or cry....just state the obvious. The results might surprise you. This is my opinion on your situation.


This is also basically what my IC said to do, since you can't change another person, is to 'let go' of what he does and focus only on what YOU do. 

Have you gotten that book I suggested yet?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> Thanks. Its hard not to try and rationalize with him. He was SOOOOO DIFFERENT for the first years before we were married, and I keep believing that guy's still in there.


Do you know what the abuser's #1 skill is? Charm. They somehow know exactly how to hone in on what a woman needs to hear to feel wanted, needed, important. It happened to me, it happened to my daughter. It happens to millions of women. And they can keep it up as long as they need to, until the woman puts the ring on her finger. And then the real man emerges.


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

It’s a complete cliche. It’s like they’ve all read the same handbook. I’ve read story after story of men being the perfect boyfriend/husband until something happened to make the relationship more permanent. Moving in together, engagement, marriage, having a baby. And for you, OP, your husband can now be really comfortable ratcheting up the abuse because you are completely isolated and and dependent on him not only financially but also to do your own job. You don’t even have any independence from him professionally. 

I am worried for your physical safety now. He’s escalating and he knows you’re at the end of your rope and considering divorce. This is when women get hurt and killed by their partners and narcissists are more likely to kill their children also. They don’t see them as separate humans with rights. They see them as possessions and tools to use to hurt their partner.

Please be careful. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Lost Wife said:


> So thoughts please. And yes...this is toxic. Yes this is unhealthy. Yes, it's bad to have this negativity around the kids. And yes, it's all just plain stupid. That is why I'm on the brink of divorce. But it would help me a lot to know what this particular instance was. It was the first time he had me in a situation where I felt forced to listen/agree/not blame him. Was that actual abuse? Or did I just FEEL like it was?


You don't _*REALLY*_ need us to tell you what a weapons grade *ass-hole* your husband is, do you?

So what's your plan? Are you going to stay with your abuser or be a smart cookie?


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> THANK YOU
> 
> This is absolutely correct. I made this same mistake for YEARS. In fact, it became such an unhealthy part of me I still do it from time to time....and it is very unhealthy (and the ass on the other end never gets it or admits it anyway).
> 
> Learn from my futility. Do not engage in circular arguments with someone who is an expert. You'll just end up more hurt....and they will NEVER apologize.


There's another thing to consider in situations like this which make it impossible to reach a common ground. And I think @Lost Wife is in this scenario. Sometimes two people can be 100% sure their view of a situation is correct. So It's not that he knows he's been being abusive and just doesn't want to change or admit he was wrong. He is really, truly clear in his head that he was not being abusive and really believes she was out of control. He'll never be remorseful not because he doesn't want to admit to his actions, he won't be remorseful because he doesn't believe he has anything to apologize for. 

Also OP understand this, saying things like "I understand that it must be frustrating for you" probably only makes it worse. What he is hearing with that is Yah I get your not getting any resolution of what is making you upset but what about me. He thinks you're being the selfish one. You two are on completely different wave lengths here. You need someone who can let go of the smaller momentary slights they might get from you and focus on the bigger issues that are causing you stress and hurt. Right now you with a guy who solely focuses on your reaction and ignores what caused it. 

Unless there is a major change in how you both approach dealing with issues so your both focused on the same thing at the same time you're never going to resolve anything. He hates apples and you hate oranges, your both arguing about how much you hate a different fruit and not focusing on the fruit the other person is talking about. If that makes any sense at all.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Dusk said:


> It’s a complete cliche. It’s like they’ve all read the same handbook. I’ve read story after story of men being the perfect boyfriend/husband until something happened to make the relationship more permanent. Moving in together, engagement, marriage, having a baby. And for you, OP, your husband can now be really comfortable ratcheting up the abuse because you are completely isolated and and dependent on him not only financially but also to do your own job. You don’t even have any independence from him professionally.


The book I recommended, _Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men_, talks about how 'getting' a girl is part of the game. It's what thrills them, the accomplishment, how they feel good about themselves. Once they have you, you instantly lose allure. 

It also says that a reason for this is that they don't see you as a human, but as a possession. A TOOL that makes them feel good about themselves, nothing more. They are mentally incapable of real love or compassion, only as a method for self-soothing.

It also says they have an uncanny knack for gaslighting, making you think there's something wrong with YOU; they can usually run circles around your logic, beat you down, until you concede just to get out of the fugue.

It also says they 100% believe they are right. They simply cannot see your way because they're incapable of understanding that what they do is wrong.

It also says that the more you give in, the worse the treatment gets, the more they escalate. 

Basically, it says there IS no getting back what you once had because it was all a lie to begin with.


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

In the end I see that OP and hubby are NOT COMPATIBLE in the least. Are we all in agreement here? Ultimately, its the kids who are suffering and the family unit as a whole. 

In all the posts, I cannot see how you two ended up together?! What are the good things in your relationship? What was the draw into having kids with the two of you? Did any discussion on lifestyle and expectations ever happen when you were younger?


Probably that ship has sailed. It would be really good for the kids to see the two of you atleast, work on settling things and separating amicably. Learn how to co-parent and make the kids the priority. Not two self absorbed individuals that claim to be adults. Sorry, but it needs to be said. 

If you want to end the negative cycle, YOU need to be the one to implement it. No one else will do it for you.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Rowan said:


> OP, I think you may be getting hung up on labeling and trying to get him to admit that he's abusive. Abusive people are generally very unwilling to admit to being abusive. Another question to consider is what do you hope to accomplish by getting to admit he was abusive? Do you imagine him agreeing to own that label will somehow cause him to stop behaving that way? It won't. So, why does it matter if he agrees that he's been abusive?



OK, late in the game, but I want to chime in here. I think you are missing a key point. The main contention isn't just what he did was abusive (which is often a matter of opinion) - he denies even doing it. After all, not only is he denying the things he said, he's actually denying his own text messages! That's not really something you can agree to disagree over. If he can justify that in his mind, he can justify anything. 

But I am also really uncomfortable with the "divorce is the only answer" and "nothing can be salvaged" people in these threads. People, please try to keep in mind you are hearing about this couple on their worst day. I think the guy was being a total ass but I'm going to assume he isn't that way 24/7. And I think the OP already knows divorce is an option. Asking for advice on TAM is an escalation short of that. Divorce may be the solution, but this guy isn't an ax murderer. I believe there are several less drastic steps she can try first. 

OP, if this happens again, I wouldn't call the police unless it's a true emergency or there's been physical violence. The police have better things to do, and as one person already pointed out, as soon as they show up the husband would start acting normal and so they will leave, with both sides looking like kooks. Instead, I would have told the husband that I* would break the window if he didn't open up*, then follow through if he didn't. Oh starting today, hide a key somewhere outside (generally good advice anyway).


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

BarbedFenceRider said:


> In the end I see that OP and hubby are NOT COMPATIBLE in the least. Are we all in agreement here? Ultimately, its the kids who are suffering and the family unit as a whole.
> 
> In all the posts, I cannot see how you two ended up together?! What are the good things in your relationship? What was the draw into having kids with the two of you? Did any discussion on lifestyle and expectations ever happen when you were younger?
> 
> ...



Hi there! And thank you for your input.

I mentioned in another post, but he was seemed like a completely different person for the first half of our 14 years together. Things changed bit by bit, until they are what they are today, with a person I don't really feel like I know anymore (if I ever knew him). For example:

Beginning of relationship: Responsible with money, completed work on time, emotionally sensitive and aware, big emphasis on honesty and integrity, considerate and romantic, easily rid himself of porn in his life (something I told him at the beginning was not something I could have in a relationship).

Present Day: Wrecked finances, extremely late on all work, callous and unaware of feelings, a compulsive liar (he admitted he had been since childhood. I just found out recently), inconsiderate and selfish a lot of the time, and watched porn the entire relationship in secret despite my feelings (I also found out recently).


Some of the stuff like the aggression and argumentativeness I can see in hindsight were there from the very beginning, but were more rare. And I see now how I was only a year out of a previously abusive situation, his aggression at the time might have seemed so much lesser, and thereby more acceptable. I also never grew up knowing what "normal" aggression would be from a man. My father was very callous and overruling, and aggressive in conversation.


Some of the things that drew us together are still the same. Which is why it's so difficult for me to figure out if I'm in a bad relationship, or just one that's going through some bad times, but can be fixed.


- He is very passionate and affectionate in his love towards me. This has never wavered. 

- Mutual passion for our work and career together. This is actually a big deal to both of us. It's how we met, and what we've worked on together every day. 

- VERY supportive of me and my work. He's a big reason I put my talent out there in a big way to get big jobs and gain notoriety. Totally built up my confidence in myself. He's totally fine if I found jobs that didn't include him, has often wanted me to learn his talents so I could do it all if I wanted, and not always have to work with him (because he says he understands how badly his issues are affecting work and my career) Also supportive of me going out now and then on my own if I want to (meaning, he's never tried to keep me from having my own life away from home, I just have never had the time)

- Our interests, our views on sex, and love for certain things, and our children are almost completely in sync. Our ONLY major issues in this area, are on porn (which is a new development to me) and that he tends to have a way stricter, more aggressive approach with the kids that I'm not comfortable with. Nothing abusive or crazy. Just waaaay too much like my own upbringing to feel comfortable.

- Finally, he is extremely intent on fixing our relationship (or at least very convincing of it). He is a liar, but I honestly feel 100% certain he loves me and truly wants to be a better man, and means every thing he says about changing, and intends on it. The problem is when the time comes, he has extreme difficulty not choosing his own wants/needs in the moment. I believe part of this is ADHD related (he has a diagnosis as SEVERE) and impulsivity and lack of empathy are hallmarks for that.

I would say, if I could describe my experience of him, it's a man who is letting himself be controlled by his ADHD, and severe hurts from childhood (his childhood was absolutely horrifying), and thrashes out like someone who's scared and angry to control the situation if it feels threatening emotionally in some way (even if it's just me disagreeing with him). He doesn't have the tools or awareness of self to change these things yet. He won't go out and do the work himself, find the information, etc, to work on his ADHD or issues. This is a tremendous sore spot for me. But I also feel compassion in that he feels lost and afraid of losing everything, and I don't want to leave him in it. But since I'm being so hurt so often now, I just don't think I can hang in there anymore 

Anyway, all that to say what it is that drew me in and what it is that's keeping me from just leaving.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

happyhusband0005 said:


> There's another thing to consider in situations like this which make it impossible to reach a common ground. And I think @Lost Wife is in this scenario. Sometimes two people can be 100% sure their view of a situation is correct. So It's not that he knows he's been being abusive and just doesn't want to change or admit he was wrong. He is really, truly clear in his head that he was not being abusive and really believes she was out of control. He'll never be remorseful not because he doesn't want to admit to his actions, he won't be remorseful because he doesn't believe he has anything to apologize for.
> 
> Also OP understand this, saying things like "I understand that it must be frustrating for you" probably only makes it worse. What he is hearing with that is Yah I get your not getting any resolution of what is making you upset but what about me. He thinks you're being the selfish one. You two are on completely different wave lengths here. You need someone who can let go of the smaller momentary slights they might get from you and focus on the bigger issues that are causing you stress and hurt. Right now you with a guy who solely focuses on your reaction and ignores what caused it.
> 
> Unless there is a major change in how you both approach dealing with issues so your both focused on the same thing at the same time you're never going to resolve anything. He hates apples and you hate oranges, your both arguing about how much you hate a different fruit and not focusing on the fruit the other person is talking about. If that makes any sense at all.


I completely agree that our arguments are usually me talking about fruit A and him fruit B. I usually want to talk about the original hurts, or long standing issue causing issues, to be understood. He usually focuses on the MOMENT. Which is an ADHD thing also.

I've tried so many things to try and get us in sync, but there's a very clear wall that triggers severe defenses, and once that's up, that's the end of the conversation. He's right, I'm wrong. There's no open listening to the others opinion if his opinion is different, and I have yet to find a way around that. I believe this is our biggest hurdle in communication. I can listen to him and validate all day long, but whenever its my turn, the conversation is over.

I've tried telling him I'm not asking for him to agree when I share my feelings, I can only ask he listens openly and then take that to consider it. That my feelings don't mean he has to change his, that we're just exploring the issue together. But he still feels threatened, and the wall slams down and Mr. Hyde comes out to play. 

At one point years ago, we jokingly named his defensive self "Prison Mike" (for those familiar with The Office ) because that person is just SO different from the man i see the rest of the time. He and I agree he built up a huge defensive mechanism as a kid because of all the horrible stuff he faced.

So yeah... if anyone has any ideas for how to get him to just slow the hell down and hear me out when in the moment, that would be insanely helpful.

I also hear you on the "It must be very frustrating.." remark. I've gotten to the point where I'm so afraid of triggering an aggressive rant towards me, that I try to keep my responses as short, simple, and validating as I can. Sometimes I don't know what to say anymore.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> Hi there! And thank you for your input.
> 
> I mentioned in another post, but he was seemed like a completely different person for the first half of our 14 years together. Things changed bit by bit, until they are what they are today, with a person I don't really feel like I know anymore (if I ever knew him). For example:
> 
> ...


I could have written this post myself. "But he's so earnest! He's never stopped loving me! He means well!"

And yet he never changes.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The only hope I see for your marriage would be if HE (not you) started going to regular, consistent therapy and honestly tried to learn from it and change. Perhaps you moving out will do it; that was the ONLY time my H ever made ANY attempt at improving. Unfortunately, I didn't move out, so he quickly lost all reason to try.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> OK, late in the game, but I want to chime in here. I think you are missing a key point. The main contention isn't just what he did was abusive (which is often a matter of opinion) - he denies even doing it. After all, not only is he denying the things he said, he's actually denying his own text messages! That's not really something you can agree to disagree over. If he can justify that in his mind, he can justify anything.


This

And I'm sorry, there is no fruit B when you lock your spouse out of the house and then run around the house making sure all the other doors are locked. Nope. Sorry.

Like I said OP, men who are like your husband will pretzel twist him into the victim. That doesn't make it so.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

turnera said:


> The only hope I see for your marriage would be if HE (not you) started going to regular, consistent therapy and honestly tried to learn from it and change. Perhaps you moving out will do it; that was the ONLY time my H ever made ANY attempt at improving. Unfortunately, I didn't move out, so he quickly lost all reason to try.


Wow, its crazy how similar our stories are!

I agree with you. And I do think if I really did pack and leave, or file for divorce, it would probably scare him enough to do something on his own. BUT, I also think, knowing him, he would always harbor a deep resentment towards me as well, for actually leaving him and breaking apart the family, and that would cause problems. Even if he did understand fully why I did so, and what he contributed to it.

His parents had an incredibly abusive marriage, but stayed married until the end. So he feels there's basically no reason to ever leave a marriage. I guess that's another area he and I differ. I told him I'd want him to be happy, even if that meant without me. And that I would never want him to tolerate abuse in his marriage, or infidelity, and hope he'd leave if ever faced with that, not just stay unhappily until the end (He, in turn, cannot tell me he'd want me to be happy if it meant leaving him).

He says that he probably wouldn't leave no matter what I did. Even if I cheated on him. I think that makes him feel like I have some kind of power over him, which he resents me for too. Like, I'd have the willingness to leave our marriage, so therefore I'm the bad guy. That baffles me. If you love someone, you wouldn't want them to be unhappy, right?


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> This
> 
> And I'm sorry, there is no fruit B when you lock your spouse out of the house and then run around the house making sure all the other doors are locked. Nope. Sorry.
> 
> Like I said OP, men who are like your husband will pretzel twist him into the victim. That doesn't make it so.


The pretzel analogy is so danged accurate. "If I just respond this way, loop around and validate here, twist that way to understand there, then stay back and bake on things awhile, things will finally be okay!".

I'm one big, mutant, over-twisted, overcooked, pretzel. It's how it feels anyway, haha.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> Wow, its crazy how similar our stories are!
> 
> I agree with you. And I do think if I really did pack and leave, or file for divorce, it would probably scare him enough to do something on his own. BUT, I also think, knowing him, he would always harbor a deep resentment towards me as well, for actually leaving him and breaking apart the family, and that would cause problems.


So?

I mean, seriously, SO? 

As my IC tells me, you are NOT the caretaker of his feelings. It's because you THINK you are responsible for how he feels that you are unable to have a healthy relationship.

And you're missing the point of the therapy. Him going would (hopefully) result in him finally understanding the effects of his actions, help him grow empathy, and allow him to finally see what the marriage feels like from YOUR perspective. If that happens, he WON'T harbor a deep resentment because the therapy will have helped him escape from the dysfunctional prison from his FOO that he's stuck in. He would then be able to have a REAL relationship with you, free from his fears and feelings of inadequacy that drive the controlling, gas-lighting and narcissism.

But it will never happen while you are there because he'll have no reason to work on it. Basically, you leaving will help HIM.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

turnera said:


> So?
> 
> I mean, seriously, SO?
> 
> ...


I have been trying to change my line of thought there. How maybe I'm not helping him by staying, and am in fact, enabling it all. It's so hard to see it that way sometimes. 

He did just start going to a therapist, for his ADHD, but is there for everything else too. About 4 sessions in. My husband says he doesn't know what to do in therapy, or what to talk about. Or what to ask of the therapist. I don't really have any advice for him, because I've only had one therapy session ever (where I told her most of what I've put in these threads, and at the end all I got was a blank look and "Wow...that's a lot"  )


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Lost Wife said:


> I have been trying to change my line of thought there. How maybe I'm not helping him by staying, and am in fact, enabling it all. It's so hard to see it that way sometimes.
> 
> He did just start going to a therapist, for his ADHD, but is there for everything else too. About 4 sessions in. My husband says he doesn't know what to do in therapy, or what to talk about. Or what to ask of the therapist. I don't really have any advice for him, because I've only had one therapy session ever (where I told her most of what I've put in these threads, and at the end all I got was a blank look and "Wow...that's a lot"  )


So he goes to therapy and doesn't even have a clue what he needs to work on... really? 

And then he tosses it your way like he expects you to decide what he works on? Really?


Does he always act like he's this clueless?

He does this because then he can blame you when he doesn't do well with therapy.

He has some deep issues that you can't (and shouldn't) fix.


His issues are like a hot potatoe for him - don't allow him to make them YOUR responsibility!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> The pretzel analogy is so danged accurate. "If I just respond this way, loop around and validate here, twist that way to understand there, then stay back and bake on things awhile, things will finally be okay!".
> 
> I'm one big, mutant, over-twisted, overcooked, pretzel. It's how it feels anyway, haha.


That's the gaslighting. 

As the book says, you will NEVER reach that perfect moment where you meet all his needs and do everything he says he needs to be happy because then he would lose control over you. Narcissists are constantly afraid you'll 'realize' they are worthless and they therefore have to keep moving the goal post. I need you to be more affectionate. You become more affectionate. I need you to be more logical. You become more logical. I need you to ...

It will never end.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

And yes, it's abuse.

HE is responsible for his actions and feelings!

YOU are NOT responsible for him!


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

And just tell him he will figure out what to work on in therapy when he gets honest with himself...

And if he isn't capable of that then you have decisions to make for your future.

Seriously tell him that so he knows you're not playing his mind games anymore.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> I have been trying to change my line of thought there. How maybe I'm not helping him by staying, and am in fact, enabling it all. It's so hard to see it that way sometimes.
> 
> He did just start going to a therapist, for his ADHD, but is there for everything else too. About 4 sessions in. My husband says he doesn't know what to do in therapy, or what to talk about. Or what to ask of the therapist. I don't really have any advice for him, because I've only had one therapy session ever (where I told her most of what I've put in these threads, and at the end all I got was a blank look and "Wow...that's a lot"  )


Tell him you want to go to therapy with him, that that is a requirement for you staying. I don't know how frequently he goes, but I'd say that you should go at least once out of every 4 times. First, to explain to her/him what's really going on in the marriage and with him, and later, to ensure that he is actually tackling the topics that affect both of you. 

He's most likely depressed, just like my husband, which is part and parcel of the FOO stuff and narcissism and ED. So what he needs is to see a way out. And for that, his IC needs to hear from you about what is really going on.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Lost Wife said:


> I completely agree that our arguments are usually me talking about fruit A and him fruit B. I usually want to talk about the original hurts, or long standing issue causing issues, to be understood. He usually focuses on the MOMENT. Which is an ADHD thing also.
> 
> I've tried so many things to try and get us in sync, but there's a very clear wall that triggers severe defenses, and once that's up, that's the end of the conversation. He's right, I'm wrong. There's no open listening to the others opinion if his opinion is different, and I have yet to find a way around that. I believe this is our biggest hurdle in communication. I can listen to him and validate all day long, but whenever its my turn, the conversation is over.
> 
> ...


The problem is you seem to be compulsive about needing to talk about the past. He is saying he feels like he is constantly defending himself against something he did wrong in the past and that is starting an argument now. It appears from what you have said he is sick and tired of any argument turning around to the past and you're not dealing with whats in front of you. 

I think you need to agree to let the past go, just forget about the past hurts and worry about getting on the same page moving forward. If you start arguing about something, thats what your arguing about, there's none of this well there was that time 3 years ago you called me x and you never really apologized for that so lets talk about that now. That would drive anyone nuts eventually.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Lost Wife said:


> Part of the reason I think I'm easily persuaded, is that *I have been awful to him too in the past*, and I feel so horrible for it. I used to justify it to myself and never be accountable because of how horribly he was acting towards me.


 @turnera asked about this as well. Can you expound on how you treated him awful?
That would give a much more complete idea of the situation and may change the advice.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

Rubix Cubed said:


> @turnera asked about this as well. Can you expound on how you treated him awful?
> That would give a much more complete idea of the situation and may change the advice.


Most surrounds becoming hyper critical, demanding, controlling, finally arriving at verbally abusive when things started unravelling about 7 or so years ago. It's my natural tendency to see a problem, take control of it, and correct it. This is helpful with career, and household issues, but I unfortunately applied it to our marriage and to an actual person. At first my attempts were based in calm "kindness" trying to communicate with him what i thought should be different. As time went on and he ignored all I said and got worse, I got colder, more direct, and just didn't treat him with the respect I should have. I became verbally abusive in fights whenever they escalated. Things got to the point where I would be yelling some pretty vile, horrible, hurting things. And I mostly felt justified in all of it because of everything he was doing (to me, our work, our family)

But around that time I looked at who I had become, and realized all my justifications were a bunch of crap. First of which was that even if what I was doing was in reaction to some vile things he was doing/saying, what I was doing was wrong, period. I was contributing to abusive and toxic situations and that was unacceptable. I realized that I was so angry because I expected him to be a better person, the person he used to be and said he was, and was trying to control and abuse him into being one. I also realized it was because I myself felt controlled by his actions, and had responded by doing the same. I was horrified with myself. I used to be a person who would never yell or control anyone, much less my husband. Who the hell did I become? What would this teach the kids?

I have done a lot of work since, and have changed significantly in terms of my reactions to him (I don't try to tell him what to do anymore, I try to just leave instead of reacting if he gets aggressive, etc). I feel like I'm finding my old peaceful self again. He confirmed he too could see the major difference in how I handled things. But in the end, yes, he had valid reason to be concerned if I might yell or not, given the past. I did go up and yell at him in the first place, Which is why I'm understanding of him locking me out at least at first, if he REALLY was fearful of me coming back to yell for some reason. 

However, I've been having this sinking feeling he's been using my newfound backing down and owning of wrongdoings as a way to double down on his own poor behaviors, which is a big reason I posted this thread. Because I recognize and take responsibility for how I act every time now, he'll quickly use my past behaviors as justification to do any number of things, mostly including shutting down any feelings that he did anything wrong, ever. Including the past. (IE: "I was really hurt when you didn't keep to our agreement" ---> "Well you've done way worse things, so..."). But I have a really hard time seeing if that's happening or not, and because I feel so guilty, i quickly tend to believe whatever he says I am, and stopped standing up for my own feelings.

So the "you've done worse" is regarding the horrible things I've said to him and the yelling primarily, which is is very sensitive to, as his mother was that way (which actually is another thing I would like to mention later). However, he's done and said things that were just as awful ("Why don't you go kill yourself like your mother did" "When are you going to kill yourself already and do us all a favor?" etc) and every name in the book. So I get confused when he says that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> Most surrounds becoming hyper critical, demanding, controlling, finally arriving at verbally abusive when things started unravelling about 7 or so years ago. It's my natural tendency to see a problem, take control of it, and correct it. This is helpful with career, and household issues, but I unfortunately applied it to our marriage and to an actual person. At first my attempts were based in calm "kindness" trying to communicate with him what i thought should be different. As time went on and *he ignored all* I said and got worse, I got colder, more direct, and just didn't treat him with the respect I should have. I became verbally abusive in fights whenever they escalated. Things got to the point where I would be yelling some pretty vile, horrible, hurting things.


So you yelled at him in arguments. AFTER he refused to participate in a logical discussion nor face or correct issues. Is that it? 



> even if what I was doing *was in reaction to some vile things he was doing/saying*, what I was doing was wrong, period.
> 
> However, I've been having this sinking feeling he's been using my newfound backing down and owning of wrongdoings as a way to double down on his own poor behaviors


That is EXACTLY what controllers/abusers do. That's what you'll read in WDHDT?ITMOAACM. Have you ordered the book yet?

That's also why Dr. Harley says never to take an abuser into counseling because they'll learn your weaknesses and use them against you.

Wait, what? He told you to go kill yourself?

Hon, PLEASE, get your kids out of that house before they turn into a replica of him. Protect your children until he gets help.

And I'll ask you: What is confusing about staying married to a person who tells you to kill yourself?


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

turnera said:


> So you yelled at him in arguments. AFTER he refused to participate in a logical discussion nor face or correct issues. Is that it?



Mostly yes, but sometimes I would be the first to yell after he kept doing things that he knew were very hurtful. I would completely lose my crap at him. That's kind of what I wanted to say about his mom, who was a complete drunk and true maniac. It sometimes feels he wakes up and does stuff he knows hurts my feelings until I snap. Like he WANTS me to. But of course that doesn't make my choice to react okay at all. Just sometimes I wonder if he's trying to repeat what he grew up with?

I do have that book (The why does he act like that one) I got it years ago when I started realizing that maybe his aggression wasn't ok. I haven't read it since, I'll give it a go again.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

turnera said:


> Do you know what the abuser's #1 skill is? Charm. They somehow know exactly how to hone in on what a woman needs to hear to feel wanted, needed, important. It happened to me, it happened to my daughter. It happens to millions of women. And they can keep it up as long as they need to, until the woman puts the ring on her finger. And then the real man emerges.


My dad was very charming and had his "secret" mean side. Total j/a

So When I met my 1st hubby he wasn't smooth at all, nor charming, always tryed to stay way from guys like that. Didn't help. My ex was a j/a too.


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

He has really done a number on you. You know it’s actually ok to get angry with someone when they are being deliberately hurtful and horrible to you? That’s not ‘toxic’ or ‘abusive’. That’s a normal reaction.

He’s got you so beaten down you don’t trust your own feelings or reactions. Did you grow up in an abusive or dismissive home? 

It is NOT NORMAL that he saves up things you’ve done 7 years ago. It’s NOT NORMAL that he lies to you and refuses to admit he’s wrong and takes advantage of your reasonableness. He has no empathy for you. He literally doesn’t care if he makes you feel bad. 

The more willing you have become to admit your part in your conflicts, the more convinced he has become of his own rightness. He will not change, why should he? He’s completely comfortable with the situation. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Lost Wife said:


> Mostly yes, but sometimes I would be the first to yell after he kept doing things that he knew were very hurtful. I would completely lose my crap at him.


 That's pretty much what happened this time as well, right?
I'm not justifying any of his **** behavior, but if you can "not react" to his button pushing you'd go a long way toward not having to deal with his escalation. I'm pretty hypocritical giving that advice because I suck at ignoring stuff like that, so at the least, I can completely relate to you on this.



> However, he's done and said things that were just as awful ("Why don't you go kill yourself like your mother did" "When are you going to kill yourself already and do us all a favor?" etc) and every name in the book. So I get confused when he says that.


 This is 100% inexcusable. What an absolute wretch. How do you forgive statements like that? I couldn't. As others have advised you really need to get away from this narcissistic peckerhead. Please leave him ASAP.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> Mostly yes, but sometimes I would be the first to yell after he kept doing things that he knew were very hurtful. I would completely lose my crap at him.


Do you know why? 

Because he set you up.

Why? 

Because when he gets you to blow your cool, HE is the instant victim.

Why does he want that?

Because then he controls the narrative. Because then it is YOUR job to make it up to him. Abuse 101. 

As long as you are having to 'pay for your sins' you don't have time to question his. As long as you're the 'problem' - or at least the BIGGER problem (notice how what you do is always worse than what he does?), he gets to 'decide' if you are worth keeping around, and you get to have a feeling of gratitude. Abuse 102.

See how this works? Read the book again.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

Rubix Cubed said:


> That's pretty much what happened this time as well, right?
> I'm not justifying any of his **** behavior, but if you can "not react" to his button pushing you'd go a long way toward not having to deal with his escalation. I'm pretty hypocritical giving that advice because I suck at ignoring stuff like that, so at the least, I can completely relate to you on this.
> 
> 
> ...



I completely agree, to not react. There's no good that has ever come from it anyway. Sometimes I have difficulty, like the other day, but my reactions have at least become much more toned down than they used to be, and much rarer. I was honestly shocked at his recollection of when I went up there that morning. I basically told him what I felt wasn't okay, albeit angrily and loud. He says I called him a name or two in there somewhere, which I honestly don't remember doing, but that wouldn't be okay. 

But it wasn't remotely close to how things used to be, where I'd be screaming whatever hurtful insult I could possibly think of. So it's hard to understand how he could feel SO afraid of my anger that he wouldn't let me in the house when he knew I was crying in the rain. 

And yeah, I'd say those things he's said to me were amongst the worst (hes said it about 4 times total), but then I remember that's I've said some pretty terrible crap too trying to hurt him right back. So I feel like I shouldn't hold onto that anymore.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Lost Wife said:


> I mentioned in another post, but he was seemed like a completely different person for the first half of our 14 years together.


Since your H has a major issue with lying, it very well may be that what you saw the first seven years was him b.s.'ing you because it suited his purposes … at the time 



Lost Wife said:


> Beginning of relationship: Responsible with money, completed work on time, emotionally sensitive and aware, big emphasis on honesty and integrity, considerate and romantic, *easily rid himself of porn in his life * …


Ah, but he didn't lose the porn "thing." Sure, to appease you and get you out of his face and off his back, he went along with appearing to respect your request. He lied about this. I get the feeling at the beginning of your relationship, your husband would go along with whatever you requested. Basically, I see this man as manipulating you all along.



Lost Wife said:


> Present Day: Wrecked finances, extremely late on all work, callous and unaware of feelings, a compulsive liar (he admitted he had been since childhood. I just found out recently), inconsiderate and selfish a lot of the time, and watched porn the entire relationship in secret despite my feelings (I also found out recently).


Maybe I should start singing "Liar, Liar, Pants On Fire." This is my take on what's going on - and I think I have some insight, having married a carbon copy of your husband - and it's that you've been manipulated to the point that you've lost some sight of who you are. At present time, you are playing the "I'm guilty" card. Your husband has really messed with your head. And, by the way, this isn't "love." Heck, you and your husband don't even LIKE each other right now.



Lost Wife said:


> … he is extremely intent on fixing our relationship (or at least very convincing of it). *He is a liar, but I honestly feel 100% certain he loves me* and truly wants to be a better man, and means every thing he says about changing, and intends on it.


The thing is, someone who loves you doesn't lie to you. You made a request for no porn. He just b.s.'d you into believing he wasn't watching. I was married to a man just like this: said whatever he needed to say to pacify me, then go right ahead and do what he damn well chose to do. Sorry. I truly am. But this ain't love. Not by a long shot.



Lost Wife said:


> … it's a man who is letting himself be controlled by ... severe hurts from childhood (his childhood was absolutely horrifying), and thrashes out like someone who's scared and angry to control the situation if it feels threatening emotionally in some way (even if it's just me disagreeing with him).


Sorry, but I was raised by a mentally ill mother and an indifferent father who was too busy whoring around and hanging with his buddies to care what happened to me. I understand having a nightmare childhood. I also know, that as an adult, I cannot let it be an excuse for my present-day bad behavior(s). If your H is being controlled by childhood hurts, then chances are, he's still stuck way back then.

So, the bottom line here is you feel overly guilty any time you so much as dare to stand up for yourself. And hubs is taking advantage of that. Stay if you want. Your life. Your choice. I tried to hang in there myself, but in the end I realized I loved myself enough to leave. Something you should consider. Seriously.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

Dusk said:


> He’s got you so beaten down you don’t trust your own feelings or reactions. Did you grow up in an abusive or dismissive home?


Not abusive, but I would say dismissed, emotionally ignored. Father was overbearing in any conversation, and I never mattered. Mother was wonderful and loving, but absent quite often.

I keep going back and forth between feeling like what you say is true, or that maybe I am just as terrible as he says,

The thread has helped me tremendously. This is the only place I've verbalized any if this.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

Prodigal said:


> Since your H has a major issue with lying, it very well may be that what you saw the first seven years was him b.s.'ing you because it suited his purposes … at the time
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks very much for taking the time to help me out. I'm so sorry you went through something like this. How long did it take you to realize it was happening, and how long before you left?

Part of the difficulty is I just can't understand how I'd let this happen, and so its hard to believe it could be real, if what you say is true. I think I'm a adequately intelligent person, and was so damned careful choosing who to marry. How the heck did I let this happen?

I'm also scared I'd never find anyone else who could love me. I have two big hurdles, in that I don't accept porn (and porn use is normalized for most men), and I have Misophonia, which can be difficult for a partner of mine to live with (a sound sensitivity disorder). Oh, not to mention 4 kids! My husband at least accepts my Misophonia, so I guess I might be putting up with more hurtful behavior because of that.


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

I’m going to go back to your initial question. It doesn’t matter if you label what he did as abusive. He locked you out of your house in the rain while at least one of your very young children was in distress.

He did it to punish you and force you to agree with him. This is not someone who has your best interest at heart. This is not someone who loves you. And this is someone who is comfortable causing your children pain in order to teach you a lesson.

The only way locking someone out would not be a terrible thing to do is if you were in fear of physical harm. And he showed he wasn’t at all. He never said that, he just wanted you to agree with him. And unless you have been physically abusive to him or the kids in the past, he has no reason to fear that.

Yelling is not a reason to lock someone out. I bet he yells at your kids. I bet he yells at you. And I also bet that when he does it it’s justified and even if it’s not, you better forgive him as soon as he pretends to apologise. 

You keep saying he was great for the first half of your relationship. I’ll repeat what @Prodigal said. HE WAS LYING TO YOU ABOUT PORN ALL ALONG. And I bet he was lying about other stuff too. So that relationship you remember never existed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Lost Wife said:


> I'm so sorry you went through something like this. How long did it take you to realize it was happening, and how long before you left?


I realized it was happening in 2004. I left for good in 2009. So, yeah, it took me awhile to say enough is enough. Look, I left with $56K to my name (not bad), no job (and that was a really bad time for finding ANY job), and I had cancer (no health insurance either). Sometimes you just need to have blind faith that anything is better than putting up with an abuser and/or addict. 



Lost Wife said:


> I think I'm a adequately intelligent person, and was so damned careful choosing who to marry. How the heck did I let this happen?


Maybe it happened to you because your emotions aren't necessarily ruled by your intellect. Mine weren't at the time I married my husband. Also, you are still playing the guilty card. How did you let it happen? Well, it sounds to me like your husband was quite effective in showing you what he wanted you to see. It's called selfish and it's also called manipulation. For every manipulator, there is a trusting victim. I was one. Sounds like you are too.



Lost Wife said:


> I'm also scared I'd never find anyone else who could love me.


So many women remain stuck in crummy relationships because of this mindset. Why are you so scared some other guy wouldn't love you? So what if it didn't happen? Do you equate not having a man/husband in your life with a cancer diagnosis? You have to learn to love and value yourself first. I never so much as went on a single date after I left my husband. We never divorced either. Sadly, he was found dead in Omaha in January '15.

I live alone today. My senior cat, Bear, was euthanized on 10/10. But I'll own another cat soon. I also love being the boss of my own home. No compromising. No cleaning up a hair-laden bathroom. No sharing a remote. I like myself. I like my life. If I want to go out with friends, fine. If I want to turn off my phone, that's fine too. I enjoy solitude. Not having a man in my life is no tragedy. I get along just fine without one. Again, something to consider ...


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

Your husband sounds like my ex h. I didn't read all of the comments but no loving husband leaves their wife outside. You want someone to talk to pm me. I had the same type of thing happen to me. I slept in my car one night how pathetic is that


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> Not abusive, but I would say dismissed, emotionally ignored. Father was overbearing in any conversation, and I never mattered. Mother was wonderful and loving, but absent quite often.
> 
> I keep going back and forth between feeling like what you say is true, or that maybe I am just as terrible as he says,
> 
> The thread has helped me tremendously. This is the only place I've verbalized any if this.


My first IC had me describe my childhood and then she said 'so you grew up having to make everyone happy, never being able to make a fuss, and never having a voice.'


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> Not abusive, but I would say dismissed, emotionally ignored. Father was overbearing in any conversation, and I never mattered. Mother was wonderful and loving, but absent quite often.
> 
> I keep going back and forth between feeling like what you say is true, or that maybe I am just as terrible as he says,
> 
> The thread has helped me tremendously. This is the only place I've verbalized any if this.


If you're as terrible as he says, why would he have married you?

Let me ask you this: would you date a second date with a person who, on your first date, said to you "why don't you just kill yourself"? Of course not. So why are you still with a person who says that?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> Thanks very much for taking the time to help me out. I'm so sorry you went through something like this. How long did it take you to realize it was happening, and how long before you left?
> 
> Part of the difficulty is I just can't understand how I'd let this happen, and so its hard to believe it could be real, if what you say is true. I think I'm a adequately intelligent person, and was so damned careful choosing who to marry. How the heck did I let this happen?
> 
> I'm also scared I'd never find anyone else who could love me. I have two big hurdles, in that I don't accept porn (and porn use is normalized for most men), and I have Misophonia, which can be difficult for a partner of mine to live with (a sound sensitivity disorder). Oh, not to mention 4 kids! My husband at least accepts my Misophonia, so I guess I might be putting up with more hurtful behavior because of that.


'how I let this happen' - is what EVERY abuse victim says. 

Why? Because like I said, you never would have dated him, let alone married him, if he was so horrible at first. That's how abuse works. They see what works and keep adding to it. If you let him tell you you can't go to your niece's birthday party, and you accept that, the next time you can't go to your sister's birthday party, and you accept that; the next time, you can't go to your mom's birthday party and you accept that. After that, you can't go to Thanksgiving dinner. If you accept that, you can't go to Christmas. If you accept that, you can't see your family anymore. 

That happened to me. It was so gradual I didn't realize for 10 years that I no longer had relations with my family OR my friends. I had given them all up just to keep him from b*tching. But it was so gradual I never realized it was happening, until all my relatives had died and I'd had an excuse every single time for not going to visit them. 

Finally, most men DON'T use porn. And when you find a good, decent man who REALLY loves you he won't care a bit about misophonia or anything else. There's a guy on America Ninja Warrior, a farmer, whose wife developed MS. She can barely walk now. He carries her everywhere. That's what real love looks like. You'll find that, ok? You just need to get out of this mess and learn to love yourself again.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Prodigal said:


> So many women remain stuck in crummy relationships because of this mindset. Why are you so scared some other guy wouldn't love you? So what if it didn't happen? Do you equate not having a man/husband in your life with a cancer diagnosis? You have to learn to love and value yourself first. I never so much as went on a single date after I left my husband. We never divorced either. Sadly, he was found dead in Omaha in January '15.
> 
> I live alone today. My senior cat, Bear, was euthanized on 10/10. But I'll own another cat soon. I also love being the boss of my own home. No compromising. No cleaning up a hair-laden bathroom. No sharing a remote. I like myself. I like my life. If I want to go out with friends, fine. If I want to turn off my phone, that's fine too. I enjoy solitude. Not having a man in my life is no tragedy. I get along just fine without one. Again, something to consider ...


My mean, strict, yelling dad cheated and, when caught, moved out to become a stud he thought he was. When he realized he couldn't get the hot young 18 year olds, he came crawling back. My mom told him to pound sand. And she - on purpose - stayed single for the rest of her life. Never again would she let some man tell her what to do, who to be friends with, where to go. She loved it.

I'm just saying, ONE area that will help you (through therapy) is to realize you don't NEED a man to be a worthwhile, valuable person. If you're staying with an abusive guy just because you think nobody else will want you, maybe the real problem is your mindset that you have to have a partner.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

turnera said:


> My first IC had me describe my childhood and then she said 'so you grew up having to make everyone happy, never being able to make a fuss, and never having a voice.'


Yeah, pretty much sounds like my childhood. Pretty eye opening. 

And I see my poor mother act way worse in terms of never standing up for herself (at ALL). Never had her own opinion or voice. Towards the end she finally did divorce my dad, but it took her meeting someone online to give her the courage to do it. She asked for divorce, got her own job (a homemaker up till that point), saved up, and moved to the other side of the state to be with this person. Unfortunately, she left her 2 daughters behind in doing so (I was 18, my sister was 14). She said it was because she didn't think we needed her to be there all the time anymore (which was completely wrong). Once down there, the man she went to be with, dumped her pretty quickly ( apparently he was still married, not divorced as he said). Then she dated a man who was a complete A-hole and treated her like crap. Then she killed herself. 

When I look back on that, I see a woman who stayed way past when she should have until she was completely broken inside. Tried to stand on her own, but still relied on men to keep her standing. So when no one was there, she fell down completely and gave up. It still makes me cry how alone and unloved she felt in the end, and how she was never really treated as worthy her entire life. I suppose I'm terrified of possibly feeling that way in the end too.

All that to say, I am taking a deep look at all of you are saying. And looking at my role model was, and that I want to not repeat what she did. And to do that, I need to fix what's inside first. Easier said than done, of course, but at least its a starting point.

Edited to add: My dad also never went to her funeral, because he was afraid people would blame him and he'd look bad. Way to show respect to the mother of your children. Just another point to show the type of male role model I had.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Do you have a therapist? You should be going. Like at least every 2 weeks. You have a lot of rebuilding to do.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

turnera said:


> Do you have a therapist? You should be going. Like at least every 2 weeks. You have a lot of rebuilding to do.


No, but I'll aim for it. I went that one time and it wasn't a very encouraging experience. More like proof that even a therapist thought my emotions were "too much". I've spent a lot of time researching online instead, to understand it all.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

Also is there a way to archive threads? I'm feeling like I should erase this one in case he goes snooping around, but I'd still like to refer to it. It's been insanely helpful. If he sees people calling out his behavior like this, he'd blame me for however that makes him feel. I just don't want to deal with another temper tantrum.


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## Lost Wife (Nov 3, 2018)

K, got it figured out. Thank all of you for your input on this!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> No, but I'll aim for it. I went that one time and it wasn't a very encouraging experience. More like proof that even a therapist thought my emotions were "too much". I've spent a lot of time researching online instead, to understand it all.


Too much? I took what you said to mean that she thought you were having to deal with too much. But yes, all therapists are different. I would call around and search for one who holds your feet to the fire to make changes.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lost Wife said:


> I just don't want to deal with another temper tantrum.


The first thing you need to change is how you work with boundaries and consequences. This doesn't require therapy, just a little bravery. 

A good first *boundary *(what you won't accept) is raising his voice. Or whatever it is he does when he throws these 'temper tantrums' (mine gets snarky). So say your boundary is 'you won't yell at me.' Stick that away in your mind. It's like a little set of armor your wear around, that keeps you empowered. 

Next time he decides to yell, you stop him and say "I don't deserve to be yelled at and I won't stay when you do it." No matter what HE does, you turn around, no more talking, and leave the room. Go in another room and shut the door, lock it if you can. Wait 15 minutes. Then come back out; if he starts yelling again, leave the house (grab the kids) and go for a walk. Stay gone for 30 minutes. When you come home, if he is just waiting to 'regain control' (you leaving has taken the control away from him and he probably won't like it) and he starts yelling again, grab your keys and purse and the kids and go for a drive. Stay gone for an hour. When you come home, if he still hasn't calmed down, grab that bag of clothes you will go right now and pack for you and the kids, stick it in the car, and go stay at a hotel for the night. 

You don't have to say anything. HE WILL KNOW why you're doing it. And he will have a choice to make - either respect you enough to stop yelling at you, or suffer your *consequence *(what you do to protect yourself when he crosses your boundary). If he's still yelling a DAY later, after you have gone somewhere else for the night, then you need to make a decision: stay and continue to be abused and beaten down, or find other living arrangements. Get an extended-stay hotel room for a week for you and the kids and then see if he is willing to talk without yelling. 

You can do this, ok? This is a proven, smart, way to teach your husband to show you respect and it doesn't require you getting him to 'do' anything. It's all in your power.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Lost Wife said:


> Also is there a way to archive threads? I'm feeling like I should erase this one in case he goes snooping around, but I'd still like to refer to it. It's been insanely helpful. If he sees people calling out his behavior like this, he'd blame me for however that makes him feel. I just don't want to deal with another temper tantrum.


 Ask a moderator to move it to the private member's forum. He wouldn't be able to get to it without 30(?) posts or a paid membership.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Lost Wife said:


> Most surrounds becoming hyper critical, demanding, controlling, finally arriving at verbally abusive when things started unravelling about 7 or so years ago. It's my natural tendency to see a problem, take control of it, and correct it. This is helpful with career, and household issues, but I unfortunately applied it to our marriage and to an actual person. At first my attempts were based in calm "kindness" trying to communicate with him what i thought should be different. As time went on and he ignored all I said and got worse, I got colder, more direct, and just didn't treat him with the respect I should have. I became verbally abusive in fights whenever they escalated. Things got to the point where I would be yelling some pretty vile, horrible, hurting things. And I mostly felt justified in all of it because of everything he was doing (to me, our work, our family)
> 
> But around that time I looked at who I had become, and realized all my justifications were a bunch of crap. First of which was that even if what I was doing was in reaction to some vile things he was doing/saying, what I was doing was wrong, period. I was contributing to abusive and toxic situations and that was unacceptable. I realized that I was so angry because I expected him to be a better person, the person he used to be and said he was, and was trying to control and abuse him into being one. I also realized it was because I myself felt controlled by his actions, and had responded by doing the same. I was horrified with myself. I used to be a person who would never yell or control anyone, much less my husband. Who the hell did I become? What would this teach the kids?


This is a textbook example of crazymaking by a narcissist. Had you ever responded to anyone else in your life this way? I'm betting NO. It doesn't make your actions ok or acceptable, but most certainly understandable. I am glad that you realized what you were doing and have taken steps to change it. You going off the deep end was exactly what he wanted, you gave him the fuel he was looking for. They feed off of these kinds of responses. 



Lost Wife said:


> I have done a lot of work since, and have changed significantly in terms of my reactions to him (I don't try to tell him what to do anymore, I try to just leave instead of reacting if he gets aggressive, etc). I feel like I'm finding my old peaceful self again. He confirmed he too could see the major difference in how I handled things. But in the end, yes, he had valid reason to be concerned if I might yell or not, given the past. I did go up and yell at him in the first place, Which is why I'm understanding of him locking me out at least at first, if he REALLY was fearful of me coming back to yell for some reason.
> 
> However, I've been having this sinking feeling he's been using my newfound backing down and owning of wrongdoings as a way to double down on his own poor behaviors, which is a big reason I posted this thread. Because I recognize and take responsibility for how I act every time now, he'll quickly use my past behaviors as justification to do any number of things, mostly including shutting down any feelings that he did anything wrong, ever. Including the past. (IE: "I was really hurt when you didn't keep to our agreement" ---> "Well you've done way worse things, so..."). But I have a really hard time seeing if that's happening or not, and because I feel so guilty, i quickly tend to believe whatever he says I am, and stopped standing up for my own feelings.
> 
> So the "you've done worse" is regarding the horrible things I've said to him and the yelling primarily, which is is very sensitive to, as his mother was that way (which actually is another thing I would like to mention later). However, he's done and said things that were just as awful ("Why don't you go kill yourself like your mother did" "When are you going to kill yourself already and do us all a favor?" etc) and every name in the book. So I get confused when he says that.



Ok now wait just a goddam minute here. Can you say HYPOCRITE???? This man harps at you all the time, insisting that you stop bringing up and living in the past, yet he constantly throws your OWN past behavior in your face?? Have you even noticed this?? The crazymaking very well may have blinded you to this truth. Mr narcissistic hypocrite needs to take a step back and practice that which he preaches! 

He isn't going to change. Ever. You might as well face this fact. He is so much like my first husband... I am glad he is at least attempting therapy. My ex had all kinds of FOO issues that he refused to go get help with, and eventually took his own life two years ago. Even if your H makes progress with his therapy, the base of who he is isn't going to change. So until you manage to get yourself in a position where you can leave him, you need to learn to GRAY ROCK him. He FEEDS on your desperation and your anger and your guilt. 

Toxic Relationship Recovery: Using the Gray Rock Method (Safely) | QueenBeeing


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

turnera said:


> Do you have a therapist? You should be going. Like at least every 2 weeks. You have a lot of rebuilding to do.


 @turnera in the other thread regarding the husband's porn use, it sounds as if the OP has is an ultimatum on the table for the husband to choose between having porn in his life or her in his life as in imminent divorce. I would imagine the husband already feels very threatened over his vulnerability and struggles with porn. That thread at the moment reached a point were it was mentioned that behaviors such as porn are often a form of self-medication for something that is causing pain and that the husband should go to therapy to try and help work out what that might be. This thread sheds a lot of light on issues and demonstrates a great deal of struggles. 

Obviously the OP here is open to therapy based on a recent post in this thread. I think that would be best.

Lost Wife if you are listening and still reading... consider therapy!

I would also encourage you and your husband to start a journal for yourselves. Jot down each day your feelings and make notes of anything that helped them change for the better. Try to observe patterns over time. Share and discuss your journals together with your husband. You may be really struggling certain days and your husband could be completely unaware. Likewise he may be struggling certain days as well. Once you are both better of aware of those things, you can work out ways to stop hurting each other and try to talk about ways to help each other. 

Such journals can also be invaluable to a therapist. Certain patterns of mood changes and how well those moods respond to things over time gives a therapist the needed framework to begin assessing what is going on and how it needs to be addressed. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

badsanta said:


> @turnera in the other thread regarding the husband's porn use, it sounds as if the OP has is an ultimatum on the table for the husband to choose between having porn in his life or her in his life as in imminent divorce. I would imagine the husband already feels very threatened over his vulnerability and struggles with porn. That thread at the moment reached a point were it was mentioned that behaviors such as porn are often a form of self-medication for something that is causing pain and that the husband should go to therapy to try and help work out what that might be. This thread sheds a lot of light on issues and demonstrates a great deal of struggles.


I agree. He should be in therapy. But she cannot make him go. Even if she forces him to go - as I did, if he doesn't want to fix things, he won't.

The only way for OP to succeed - with or without her spouse - is for her to learn her own voice and worth.


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