# The margin for error?



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I don't come to TAM as regularly as I used to, and in particular when I haven't been around for a week or so, a number of things really jump out at me and it really makes me wonder. Maybe I'm just in an odd mood, so I hope no one feels offended by my comments.

In a number of threads, whether they were made by people who are in solid marriages or troubled ones, it seems like the margin for error is always so small. Since I'm a guy, I'll lay out a scenario from that POV. Man and woman get married, there is that animal attraction and spark. Relationship matures and attraction wanes. Some of that is natural. However, much of it from what I read on here is IMHO NOT NATURAL. Let's continue. Wife feels less attraction for her H. Sometimes W will say something about it, and H blows it off. Sometimes W will not say anything and H will not know any better and will live obliviously. Either way, one or both become complacent (content? conflict avoidance?). Attraction wanes and more likely than not it's the W who loses it first or at a higher level. She's either: 1) just a cold fish to her H, 2) oogles hot guys in books/mags/TV/etc, 3) actively talks to friends about how if she were single - she'd go after another guy they know, 4) hangs with friends going out and flirting with guys, 5) reconnecting to past loves and flirting, 6) flirting with male coworkers and/or 7) flat out cheats on H. H wakes up and finds W not attracted to him and somewhere on a scale of detaching from him. 

Ultimately, the guy reacts in a number of ways. He may get panicky and get extra clingy and do the exact things that bothered his W -but now more of it. He may simply detach as well and a myriad of other options then branches off. But let's assume the H wants to fix things - which brings me to my whole point. Why is it assumed that the most likely and assured way to inject more passion into the marriage is to play games? Why gamesmanship? MMSLP seems incorporate gaming (PUA techniques) to win that wife back with ideas about a 2/3rd rule of compliments between the wife and husband, ensuring that the H's sex ranks is always higher, etc. etc. Or maybe people don't come from the MMSLP background but it seems much of the thought is based on walking a tightrope to ensure the "ideal marriage". Watch out, because if you're too alpha you'll chase her away but if you're too beta you're going to turn into a doormat for her to walk all over you.

Is this the marriage dynamic that most people see? DATING/COURTING - MARRIAGE - HONEYMOON PHASE - WANING ATTRACTION - DETACHMENT - GAMING - RECONNECT - HONEYMOON PHASE II?

IMHO, when I take a step or 2 back and think about this more, I think what happens is there are a lot of marriage that start between couples that are incompatible. Because of the incompatibility, a certain amount of gaming needs to take place in order to keep a marriage like this going. If you sense on the deeper level that you are not compatible with your spouse, you tend to not share as much as you normally would with a spouse. That lack of sharing goes hand in hand with reduced communication because you don't want to bare your soul to someone that is not compatible with you. From there, the margin for error gets much tougher. The less you know someone, the more formal the relationship. The more formal the relationship, the less margin for error. That's how I see it. 

Sorry for such a long OP. Been thinking about this for a little while and just wanted to throw it out there. This could just as easily go into General, but thought it best to go here since it's ultimately about attraction and intimacy.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Plan,
I tend to agree with your assessment and would add that most marriages begin with a sizable difference in maturity and intellect. This difference causes expectations in goals, roles, intimacy, finances and so forth, to be vastly different. As these differences surface and become problems people, instead of communicating, just begin to detach and fall into the situation you described above becoming more akin to strangers than spouses.

I too feel that "games" are for children and that by the time one reaches the age of marriage games should be replaced with open, honest communication between two rational cognizant adults. Sadly, chronological age seldom reflects one's mental state regarding maturity. I know people in their 50s who behave more like teenagers, their lives replete with problems that one would expect to affect only the very young.

The underlying cause of our social immaturity is this easy lifestyle we have made for ourselves. There is a formula for maturing and we are missing key ingredients. Sadly, very few even see this and even fewer believe it to be the case. So on we march.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

That whole alpha /beta thing is a load of crap to me, personally. I find the behaviors labeled as "alpha" to be more like "domineering d*******g." But I'm likely wired far too dominant to think otherwise. So MMSLP from what I've read would not only not win me back or over, but send me running. 

I've detached in relationships because the attention and caring feelings waned. Less "I love you" said first by him, less romance, less conversation, less interest in what I have going on. All those things send subtle signals that I'm no longer important. And if i feel that way, I'll detach. It's self preservation. 

My husband recently told me that he married me because I "made him do it." All those loving feelings I use to have for him? Yeah, really hard to feel those now, as 1) he is blaming me for HIS CHOICES which shows a huge maturity issue on his part, and 2) why the hell would I feel happy and loving towards someone who didn't want me? "But I still married you" doesn't undue the truth I now have to live with of knowing he didn't want to. 

I don't see how him being more alpha or playing games is going to patch up the hole in my heart. And I think advice here far too often ignores the feelings and small actions that led to a marriage eroding in the first place.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I want to point out that even though a fair portion of my thinking is that incompatible people are getting married as causing a number of issues in the marriage later, it doesn't mean that this cannot be overcome. As stated earlier if people would lay their cards on the table and let each other in, people would have much happier marriages IMHO. 

I'll use my wife and myself as an example. Anytime we get an empty house with just the 2 of us, my wife knows that my expectation is that we will have intimacy. When this happens frequently enough, you will BOTH want to have intimacy as soon as the time alone becomes available. My wife just finished her workout this morning and right before jumping in the shower, she told me "I expect you to get off this computer once I'm done so that we can spend time together. I do not want to see you shut away from the rest of the family on the computer when we can be together". Soon, I will not be on TAM for the rest of the day until most likely tomorrow. 

I think a lot of people assume that laying your expectations out clearly and directly means you are trying to control your spouse. I think that is the wrong way to think about it. Also, I know that people also tend to drift off and not realize that they may be being neglectful at times. Just because my wife said what she said to me now doesn't mean she's "bossing me around" and that I have to take it. Because deep down I don't want to intentionally be a douche to my wife. Instinctively, I WANT to be a good husband. Telling me clearly what she wants and when she wants it up front is her telling me how I CAN be a good husband. Because I do this regularly with my wife too. 

In our case, a book like MMSLP and the PUA type manuals are not what we need. We really need to listen, to communicate and to have the desire to want to be a good spouse (meaning - action). Really, I think it's that simple. But...just because it's simple doesn't mean it's not hard work at times. We have our alone time from each other, sure. But when it's time to spend time together, it's time. 

Enjoy the new year if I don't post for the rest of the day.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I think a lot of people assume that laying your expectations out clearly and directly means you are trying to control your spouse. I think that is the wrong way to think about it.


That's exactly what DH tells me when I try to tell him what I need. It gets us nowhere. Or at least it leaves me feeling worthless. I am very HD but I can tell you that his attitude doesn't lend to me caring one but about being intimate.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I'll try not to get into the alpha/beta debate.... I simply think that those who are already healthily assertive, don't need the type of guidance that many of us seek. Those lessons have been learned somehow already. They are already equipped enough with healthy communication and boundaries.

From your post Plan 9, I'd hazard a guess that your wife sees you on the computer a fair bit. She is telling you her expectation. Whether that's bossy and acceptable or not is up to you - but the end result, her intention, is that she wants to spend time with you and that's wonderful. She digs you. And you agree to the request because you want to share in that time with her too. You dig her.

I just learned that a friend and her husband have separated after about 15 years. She told me they just aren't compatible. They likely never have been. Their goals are miles apart and she's done. They haven't had sex in over 3 years and intimacy of the simplest kind became a rarity. She admitted that she checked out some time ago. She respects her husband as a father and as a person in his own right, but as her spouse, they're just incompatible on so many levels and that won't change. They've been in cruise mode for years. 

Thing is, it's likely the happiest I've ever heard her sound. She was light and confident and taking charge of her life rather than staying in the rut they had developed. I relayed this to my husband with enthusiasm - not because of them splitting up - but rather that my friend had sounded the happiest I've heard in years. 

My husband readily admitted that hearing me share the news in that way, had him feeling concerned that I may want that for myself. That may be an old thought-pattern that had crept its way back in. It gave me the opportunity to reassure him that he can feel safe with us and that my reaction to my friend's situation was partly shock of the news and partly happy to hear her sounding so content. I did jokingly tell him _and besides, I need you to stick around and take care of the spiders_ then gave him a kiss. As much as he's made changes for himself over the last few years, as have I, and both for the better of us, my feeling is that without sharing vulnerability and letting one another in, how will we truly understand each other and how is that trust developed that is part of the foundation of a relationship? From there, we can also begin to understand one anothers needs.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

vms said:


> That's exactly what DH tells me when I try to tell him what I need. It gets us nowhere. Or at least it leaves me feeling worthless. I am very HD but I can tell you that his attitude doesn't lend to me caring one but about being intimate.


He's telling you that he feels you are controlling. Is there any truth in it though? As much as I'm all for laying something out there, there are ways of communicating needs/expectation so that the other person isn't left feeling defensive, cornered, criticized or controlled. 

I can't say I've worked this part out yet. Sometimes I do come across as bossy or controlling. It's not my intention and he knows this. I just don't know how else to communicate it. He's not perfect himself. However we will extract the intention and figure a different way of communicating it... sometimes it could be more about the tone than the words themselves. Sometimes the tone was meant and I'll own that for what it is. There are also many times that we can laugh it off together and still get the message across. I feel that I'm able to listen to my husband because I trust his intention. Maybe it's also the way he communicates back to me. It doesn't make me defensive and I know I'll still be heard; I know that we both want to meet each others needs. 

Shutting down or backing one another into a corner doesn't really leave room for open discussion/open feelings/open hearts, open minds and/or bodies together.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I agree with you that some couples are just not the best match for each other, Plan. They make it work, mainly because they have kids (in the examples I am thinking of). But I really think it would be a lot easier for them if they were with more suitable mates.

I wish people would be more honest with themselves and potential mates from the get go. It is sad to see people "make it work" for 10 or 20 or even more years when a better fit would have been so much easier and truly delightful to be with.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

jld said:


> I agree with you that some couples are just not the best match for each other, Plan. They make it work, mainly because they have kids (in the examples I am thinking of). But I really think it would be a lot easier for them if they were with more suitable mates.
> 
> I wish people would be more honest with themselves and potential mates from the get go. It is sad to see people "make it work" for 10 or 20 or even more years when a better fit would have been so much easier and truly delightful to be with.


I've seen you write this sentiment before and not sure if I partially disagree or if I've misunderstood your perspective. Maybe both. Maybe neither!

I'm of the opinion that growing together, being open to learning about ourselves (and each other), can at times feel challenging and uncomfortable - but so long as it's from a healthy place of growth, it can still be delightful. It's rare that anything worthwhile is easy. Relationships included. And a large part of that is because relationships can be a mirror reflecting back to ourselves. It's not always easy to truly see ourselves for who we are. A lot of the time, relationships and connections with others, provide that opportunity. Do you see it that way or do you feel 'easiness' in relationships doesn't require that (sometimes) awkwardness that's connected with growth and discovering self-awareness?

Compatibility is one thing. Growth is another.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

In any relationship we are going to have to grow at least somewhat, I think. My marriage is pretty easy, but we still have challenges that stretch us.

But for some couples, just keeping the marriage going seems to take lots of energy. If a crisis comes along, they may not make it. Even without a crisis, they may not make it. 

I have ten older siblings (big Catholic family), most of whom married young. Several have had difficult marriages. 

One fought nearly daily with her first husband for 20 years. They divorced and she remarried a year or two later. The second marriage is in its fifteenth year, and they seem quite pleased with one another. I think the difference is compatibility.

Does it mean they are not growing? I don't know, really. I don't think my sister is the most openminded person. But she finally seems to feel safe, and loved. So if growth were going to happen, the conditions are favorable for it.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> He's telling you that he feels you are controlling. Is there any truth in it though? As much as I'm all for laying something out there, there are ways of communicating needs/expectation so that the other person isn't left feeling defensive, cornered, criticized or controlled.
> 
> I can't say I've worked this part out yet. Sometimes I do come across as bossy or controlling. It's not my intention and he knows this. I just don't know how else to communicate it. He's not perfect himself. However we will extract the intention and figure a different way of communicating it... sometimes it could be more about the tone than the words themselves. Sometimes the tone was meant and I'll own that for what it is. There are also many times that we can laugh it off together and still get the message across. I feel that I'm able to listen to my husband because I trust his intention. Maybe it's also the way he communicates back to me. It doesn't make me defensive and I know I'll still be heard; I know that we both want to meet each others needs.
> 
> Shutting down or backing one another into a corner doesn't really leave room for open discussion/open feelings/open hearts, open minds and/or bodies together.


It depends on what he uses as a definition for controlling, I suppose. 

I'll give an example. In the beginning, like the first 1.5 years of our relationship, he'd take 1-2 week long trips to see his parents (keep in mind we were still long distance then). I'd get maybe a few texts a day, a 10 minute phone call once if I was lucky. Even on Christmas Eve, all I got was a 15 minute rushed call. 

I was upfront in saying that I need more contact than that from someone I'm in a committed relationship with and I found it hurtful and disrespectful that he would not do that. He found that selfish of me. He said his parents would have found a longer call with me to be rude. I said they needed to get over that, as I was his long term committed girlfriend, and he should be focusing on building our relationship, not catering to his parents. 

The thing is, he was not joined at his parents hips 24/7 while he was there. They took day long bike rides (as in leave at 5 am get home at 9 pm, even some overnight trips), several hour long bike rides on other weekends, and other activities without him while he was there. He could have made time for a 30 minute phone call to let me know I still mattered and wasn't on the back burner. He'd play Xbox or watch Netflix instead. He was not busy. His parents would not have been put out in the least. 

Is that controlling? Putting forth a need such as, "I need X amount of quality time with you each week"? If that is controlling to someone, then the options are to find a middle ground, or move on. That's what every conflict in marriage comes down to, isn't it?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

's Heartsbeating !!



heartsbeating said:


> *I can't say I've worked this part out yet. Sometimes I do come across as bossy or controlling. *
> .


I always know when I am pushing too far, H will say >>







... he knows how to get his point across ...(and ya know it's almost laced with a little humor )... yet I know it' my warning...sometimes I'll go pound on him (I mean lightly ) and say “No.. don’t say that”... I *don’t* want to come off that way.. he knows this. .. I must admit I have gotten better in the last 6 yrs to catering to HIM....

But really I always had to have his thoughts. ... Didn’t matter how much I wanted something.. I needed him on board too... and likewise, he always sought how I felt ... this has worked well.. I haven’t gotten a “*YES DEAR*” in probably a year.. so I’m doing well !

Really....I would get zero satisfaction if I was being overbearing & he was stuffing to please me... too much is lost in this.. it would sour the enjoyment..there is detachment there.. it’s not a happy place.. it’s like why take anyone for a ride If they don’t want to be there.. it matters a great deal to me that we’re BOTH “enjoying the ride”.. whatever it is.. 



Plan 9 from OS said:


> Is this the marriage dynamic that most people see? DATING/COURTING - MARRIAGE - HONEYMOON PHASE - WANING ATTRACTION - DETACHMENT - GAMING - RECONNECT - HONEYMOON PHASE II?
> 
> IMHO, when I take a step or 2 back and think about this more, *I think what happens is there are a lot of marriage that start between couples that are incompatible*. Because of the incompatibility, a certain amount of gaming needs to take place in order to keep a marriage like this going. * If you sense on the deeper level that you are not compatible with your spouse, you tend to not share as much as you normally would with a spouse. That lack of sharing goes hand in hand with reduced communication because you don't want to bare your soul to someone that is not compatible with you. From there, the margin for error gets much tougher. The less you know someone, the more formal the relationship. The more formal the relationship, the less margin for error. That's how I see it. *


 I always take the time to read your posts Plan 9 from OS...I so often resonate with near everything you write.. this too... We are so NOT the game playing type...I would be more apt to confront if things started to go south.. I wouldn't like it, and I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve.. this can have it's good and bad I suppose.....

It would affect so much of my being.... like a candle was blown out.... 

My H has never tried to shut me out.. I have never tried to shut him out...we both care a great deal to be back in sync... I've only experienced this sort of thing back in the day with high school girl friends, that was irritating enough.. don't need that crap with my lover....I just wouldn't have the patience for it..... if we can't work something out...and hold each other at the end of the night.. something in us will slowly wither and die... 

I’ve done so many posts on compatibility.... it’s just THAT important so I feel.. it just makes for a smoother ride.. I have often said.. at the end of the day.. we all WANT WHAT WE WANT.. we are WIRED a certain way in so many areas, our deal breakers are different -from person to person!.... so to find another geared as us ..it's like this saying.......






> Some threads here :
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-term-success-marriage/237418-how-compatible-you.html
> 
> ...


.... And sometimes we have it....but stress and our attitudes get in the way... (being stubborn, back biting, passive aggressive behaviors, etc)...we may loose site of how good things really are..or could be....

Take that show







for instance... haven't watched that in years.. I got a charge out of seeing these MAJOR opposites thrown together..... by the end of the week, these couples are running towards each other, sometimes tears...about ready to kiss each others feet....appreciation has grown leaps & bounds..

When a couple looks at life/ a lifestyle...sharing a vision, Love and intimacy in a very similar light... there is great acceptance in this.. it's like "coming home"...I would even say ...it takes "the work" out of marriage ...


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

jld said:


> Does it mean they are not growing? I don't know, really. I don't think my sister is the most openminded person. But she finally seems to feel safe, and loved. So if growth were going to happen, the conditions are favorable for it.


I wonder if sometimes the dynamic gets so twisted that it's hard or both are unwilling due to individual issues, resentment, too much hurt and time etc. to untwist it together. Maybe it's deemed not worthwhile of untwisting. Perhaps she's taking what she learned in her first marriage and applying it to her second marriage. 

Wow, 10 siblings! That's a big family!


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

vms said:


> I was upfront in saying that I need more contact than that from someone I'm in a committed relationship with and I found it hurtful and disrespectful that he would not do that. He found that selfish of me. He said his parents would have found a longer call with me to be rude. I said they needed to get over that, as I was his long term committed girlfriend, and he should be focusing on building our relationship, not catering to his parents.


Fair enough, that's how you felt. It could also be put forward from the positive reference - of how much you love talking with him and value and need that time.

However from this example, I hope you don't mind me saying that personally I likely would have concluded that he wasn't that into me. I don't think that's controlling - I do think he was demonstrating through actions where his priorities were, and they weren't with you. It sounds like even that conversation had both of you armed with defenses up.



vms said:


> Is that controlling? Putting forth a need such as, "I need X amount of quality time with you each week"? If that is controlling to someone, then the options are to find a middle ground, or move on. That's what every conflict in marriage comes down to, isn't it?


Tone really can make a difference with these discussions. Imagine reading 'I need X amount of quality time with you each week' in first a gentle, loving tone. And then again with a frustrated, annoyed tone. Sometimes we can work through the tone and get to a defenses down mode... mutual outcome in mind. Other times, especially if tensions are already high, tone can spark a defensive response and might push someone away further as a result despite what our words are actually saying. 

I will say this though, my husband and I dig our own time but for the most part we enjoy being around one another. Actions above all are very telling.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Anything I say, in may manner, is seen as an attack on him. He's too insecure to not see one if what someone has to say is not 100% sunshine and roses. He does that with everyone. I remember him complaining to me that his mom asked him to finish cleaning out his old bedroom, he felt like she was getting on to him. He was 30 when she asked that. He hadn't lived there in over 5 years and even that was just summers home from college. Totally reasonable request but he saw it as an attack on him. I mean, how dare they want his stuff from high school gone from their house so they could have an actual guest room vs "middle son circa 2001"?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

vms said:


> I was upfront in saying that I need more contact than that from someone I'm in a committed relationship with and I found it hurtful and disrespectful that he would not do that. He found that selfish of me. He said his parents would have found a longer call with me to be rude. I said they needed to get over that, as I was his long term committed girlfriend, and he should be focusing on building our relationship, not catering to his parents.


 As a parent I would be telling my son he better be spending more time with his GF/ wife ... or his relationship will be going belly up... (and I wouldn't blame his GF if she moved on )...Seriously.. You was NOT asking too much .. he wasn't making you a priority. ..I'd feel as Hearts spoke, that he just wasn't that into me.. and it would be tough but you deserved better , more personalized hands on treatment from someone.... 



> The thing is, he was not joined at his parents hips 24/7 while he was there. They took day long bike rides (as in leave at 5 am get home at 9 pm, even some overnight trips), several hour long bike rides on other weekends, and other activities without him while he was there. He could have made time for a 30 minute phone call to let me know I still mattered and wasn't on the back burner. He'd play Xbox or watch Netflix instead. He was not busy. His parents would not have been put out in the least.
> 
> *Is that controlling? Putting forth a need such as, "I need X amount of quality time with you each week"? If that is controlling to someone, then the options are to find a middle ground, or move on. That's what every conflict in marriage comes down to, isn't it?*


 Love languages are deeply rooted in us...we can't separate them from who we are...we primary crave love in the same way we want to express it.... so they say... . when a couple finds themselves on opposite ends...it can create a lot of hurt feelings... if his calling you, spending time with you is what you need.. and he is quite content just hanging by himself ..or tells you ..."you're too needy" ... he's as much shown he *doesn't care to understand you*.. 

Better to leave someone like this if you can't find happiness with his "middle ground"... IF he can even hold it...with the test of Time... even during arguments, and fights.. that's another aspect. as it'd be the 1st thing to go when troubles arise down the road..

Dating should give us enough TIME and experiences to give many snapshots to our future with this person.. heed the





















.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

I told him all that. He just has such a low emotional IQ that he has a very hard time getting it. He's in counseling now do we'll see if anything changes.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I haven’t gotten a “*YES DEAR*” in probably a year.. so I’m doing well !


haha.... well, I said something the other night, a knee-jerk reaction about something. I didn't even think, let alone think if it was controlling. He straight-up told me, in a gentle way, that I was being controlling and said that he was trying to include me - he was suggesting I travel with him when he next goes away for work. He brought it back to him including me in that. I couldn't help but just take a quick pause to take it in... I almost missed the main idea of traveling with him because my mind side-stepped with this other thought and I blurted it out. When he saw it process in a flash, we both looked at one another and ended up having a chuckle. I said I'd love to go with him if we could make it work with dates and such. And, that's all that was needed really.



SimplyAmorous said:


> My H has never tried to shut me out.. I have never tried to shut him out...we both care a great deal to be back in sync...


Well, the actions of my husband and I did demonstrate where our relationship was heading... we just couldn't see it for what it was at the time when going through it. It's very different now. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> Take that show
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They'd put me in place of the wife who cooks all the meals and has lots of children. I'd introduce that house-hold to the beauty of takeaway Indian food. She'd go to our house and she'd find it odd to find my husband cooking much of the time. But then she wouldn't like Butter Chicken and he'd miss me hahah. Or maybe he'd realize how great it is to have 3-course meals cooked for him!


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

vms said:


> I told him all that. He just has such a low emotional IQ that he has a very hard time getting it. He's in counseling now do we'll see if anything changes.


How long have you been together?

What was his childhood like?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

heartsbeating said:


> *They'd put me in place of the wife who cooks all the meals and has lots of children*. I'd introduce that house-hold to the beauty of takeaway Indian food. She'd go to our house and she'd find it odd to find my husband cooking much of the time. But then she wouldn't like Butter Chicken and he'd miss me hahah. Or maybe he'd realize how great it is to have 3-course meals cooked for him!


You'd be swapping with ME !! Oh I'm sure he'd LOVE the takeaway Indian .... we LOVE to go out & eat..it's always a special treat... we just wouldn't care for the cost to enjoy it too much...we are very wired to watch our savings.. so we're prepared to cover what may come with the expenses of a larger family... 

We managed to eat at the Olive Garden last month .. 9 of us for $69 -- I was expecting more like over $80... so I was pretty pleased , smiling walking out the door. It would be like a vacation for me to have the man cook...but then mine would come home and it'd be all lop sided if that took hold since he works 40 hrs a week...against my 6 hrs outside the home... I'd get lazy !... we can't have that.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> How long have you been together?
> 
> What was his childhood like?


4ish years. 

He's the middle kid. Brother is just a year and a half younger but sister is a few years older and mentally disabled. She's basically been a toddler in terms of development, and took up almost every bit of his parents time until she was moved into a group home when hubby was 16.

The two boys were expected to be seen and not heard from what I can tell. I've seen the interaction between everyone and the sister and frankly, I was a little disgusted by it. It felt like she was also expected to sit quietly and not bother anyone. Constantly being told to go sit down, like an unruly dog vs their child. Wasn't allowed to really participate in anything. I understand she had limitations, but she could have been allowed to help in the ways she was trying to, but they would just snap at her to sit down. I felt bad for her. She clearly was trying to be a part of the family. 

I think hubby has resentment from his childhood and lack of attention and now as an adult wants everything focused on him but doesn't think he owes anyone the same. His parents have always been controlling and rather self centered to me. Like going on weekend long bike rides when hubby would visit. Who does that? His brother is the same. He'd go camping when he knew weeks in advance that his brother would be in town.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

His parents also more or less lead their own lives. They do bike rides together, but at home they are in separate rooms or in the same room but not talking. So that's what he saw as how relationships work.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

They did a lot for the sister. Don't get me wrong, she was never neglected. They fought hard to get her the best help, best schools, etc.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I don't think this dynamic is very surprising.

First, I think 50-60 yrs of monogamy is not humans' natural state. So you are already going against the grain from the start. 

Second, men and women change over time and not in the same ways. What was a good match at age 25 might be a very poor match at age 40 without either person doing anything wrong.

Third, relationships are based on emotion. They are not logical. A person cannot make himself feel something. When a mismatch in emotion develops it is like expanding ice that over time can break open a rock.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

vms said:


> 4ish years.
> 
> He's the middle kid. Brother is just a year and a half younger but sister is a few years older and mentally disabled. She's basically been a toddler in terms of development, and took up almost every bit of his parents time until she was moved into a group home when hubby was 16.
> 
> ...


It may be that his parents were screwed up and did not treat their kids well.

I think it is very difficult to understand what it is like raising a special needs kid if you have not been in that position though.

I know that there are many special needs kids whose parents neglect them and it is truly heartbreaking when that happens.

There are a lot of other parents who do the best they can with a very hard situation that they did not choose.


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## toonaive (Dec 13, 2012)

"Is this the marriage dynamic that most people see? DATING/COURTING - MARRIAGE - HONEYMOON PHASE - WANING ATTRACTION - DETACHMENT - GAMING - RECONNECT - HONEYMOON PHASE II?"

From my experience, this cycle gets really old, and after a while, Infidelity creeps in around the gaming section which sends the marriage off on a different track.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> I don't think this dynamic is very surprising.
> 
> First, I think 50-60 yrs of monogamy is not humans' natural state. So you are already going against the grain from the start.
> 
> ...


I disagree with what is in bold. Granted I can only go off my personal experience and the experiences others have told me about, but I would say the longer the two of you are together the more likely it is that your goals and interests better align. I am more interested in things that I wouldn't have been if it wasn't for my wife and vice versa. 

When I was younger, I never had an interest in musicals. Plays and symphonies yes - musicals NO. My wife always enjoyed musicals. Well, this will be our 3rd year of going to see a couple shows at a "Light Opera" in our area. When we were first married, my wife did not care for football at all and it's my favorite sport. Now, my wife has a team that she roots for and we make a trek to see one home game a year to see her team plus have a fun weekend out. Communication and spending time quality time together seems to be the trick to becoming more aligned with values, goals and ideas.

To me, it's analogous to how you approach your job. You can either roll up your sleeves and do what you are supposed to, or you spend as much energy (or more) doing your best to get out of doing as much work as possible. It's more rewarding when you simply do what you were supposed to do from the get go as opposed to playing games to avoid intimacy, communicating and spending quality time together. IDK about most, but to me it seems like it takes actual work to cut your spouse out of your life since he/she is there already.

That's why the gaming phase can even be divided up and put into a subset of the waning attraction phase. Aside from playing the games to try to build attraction, people just as likely play games to tear the marriage apart. His money/her money, his chores/her chores, trying to control the views and actions of a spouse, putting in efforts to avoid spending time with a spouse and putting time and games with friends ahead of your spouse. While there is a place and time for friends and alone time, the spouse should come first. Avoiding this is game playing IMHO.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

the gaming begins during dating. ever watch the romantic movies Hollywood puts out? Its 90% gaming. They're cute and funny but shockingly superficial. Not real life? watch couples early in their dating life and its often very similar. iv'e observed this a lot over the years. While it serves a purpose (feeds infatuation), it is not conducive to LTR and in fact sows a destructive seed for later on after the honeymoon phase of things and we lose our 'game' or become unmotivated to keep on that game.

This is a cultural phenomena that has partially contributed to I think what Plan 9 is talking about.

The very notion of playing a game (or whatever you want to call it, flirting, one liners) is in itself superficial. It is not a fault of individuals. It is that our culture has taught us this is what we're suppose to do. It works for getting us laid. Maybe even married, but then the games get old, we get bored and then............

Perhaps it's time to take stock and seek some wisdom from previous generations. Not revert to the bad old days, but in revolutionizing our culture, we often throw out the good things along with the bad.

One of those things is perhaps the idea that we need to learn to love rather than 'falling in love'.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

I also don't believe the alpha approach is anything remotely like a fix for most passionless marriages. By way of fair disclosure I should note that I feel a substantial portion of sexless marriages are fundementally about biology and circumstance but these feelings and the responses to these feelings become loaded with lots of baggage that often kills a marraige. 

The flush of hormones both parties feel at the begining of a sexual relationship with decline. Preganancy, nursing, extreme stress, exercise, body size, caloric intake and age cause variations in a sex drive. I also suspect that there are good evolutionary reasons why many (but definetly not all) women's sex drive may sharply decline once she has kids and stabilty. Once interest in sex wanes, then it is easy to find things about your partner or sex itself that are a turn-off and that becomes the conscious "reason" you no longer want to have sex.

The only real way to deal with it is direct and openly. Easily said but rarely done. 

For long term LD, it may simply come down to an unfixable problem. The LD person is simply that. Some people are normal and healthy and just aren't interested in sex. Unless BOTH are truly able to find genuine joy in giving and receiving regular one-sided sex (and that is probably not the case in most marriages), I don't see any solution other than acceptance, divorce or I suppose in a few cases, an an "understanding" regarding extra-marital sex(I often wonder if the Clintons have the latter kind ) 

.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Lionelhutz said:


> I also don't believe the alpha approach is anything remotely like a fix for most passionless marriages. By way of fair disclosure I should note that I feel a substantial portion of sexless marriages are fundementally about biology and circumstance but these feelings and the responses to these feelings become loaded with lots of baggage that often kills a marraige.
> 
> The flush of hormones both parties feel at the begining of a sexual relationship with decline. Preganancy, nursing, extreme stress, exercise, body size, caloric intake and age cause variations in a sex drive. I also suspect that there are good evolutionary reasons why many (but definetly not all) women's sex drive may sharply decline once she has kids and stabilty. Once interest in sex wanes, then it is easy to find things about your partner or sex itself that are a turn-off and that becomes the conscious "reason" you no longer want to have sex.
> 
> ...



Hard to argue against the evidence that people are ill suited to long term monogamy.

I would bet you that almost all LDs will find their libido once their current relationship ends, however.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> Hard to argue against the evidence that people are ill suited to long term monogamy.
> 
> I would bet you that almost all LDs will find their libido once their current relationship ends, however.


I agree. I know it is easy to overstate evolutionary psychology but new relationships will cause a new flush of hormones. That means lots of bonding sex which will again decline with time. 

By most measures when compared with other mamals Humans fall somewhere in between the monogamy and polygamy scale. And humans are far more sexual than most. 

So ultimately I think we each are going to have to find our own way. I just think there should be no societal presumption that marriage is required for full maturity or adulthood. There is a substantial portion of the population of both men and women that are not by nature "marriage material"


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Anon1111n said*:
> *Second, men and women change over time and not in the same ways. What was a good match at age 25 might be a very poor match at age 40 without either person doing anything wrong*.





Plan 9 from OS said:


> *I disagree with what is in bold. Granted I can only go off my personal experience and the experiences others have told me about, but I would say the longer the two of you are together the more likely it is that your goals and interests better align.*


 I can't speak for anyone else either, only our own journey in this.. I've always said... .if we were to go back in time...the very same things we wanted THEN, craved for, dreamed of to complete our lives.. is the same TODAY... 

It seems from much reading on TAM.. people DO change though..being curious of this.. I asked what seemed to be the basis for these big changes doing a thread on it...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ng-vows-now-who-what-why-could-weathered.html

trying to pin it down.. I gave these options...



> *1.* Missed the
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


> *jorgegene said*: *Perhaps it's time to take stock and seek some wisdom from previous generations. Not revert to the bad old days, but in revolutionizing our culture, we often throw out the good things along with the bad.*


 I feel the same..... a little bit ago, I was reading a debate about the hooking up culture ... the pros and cons..what we have lost along the way.. .I feel plenty has been lost... I want to do a thread on comparing this in the near future... 

 The House Regrets The Rise Of A 'Hookup Culture' | Debate.org

I so agree with this...



> This last decade has seen the potent rise of a hook-up culture; one which "accepts and encourages casual sexual encounters". Friday night activities of partying and clubbing have "taken over" the old-fashioned activity of "dating". These activities more often then not lead to casual sexual encounters, which can include any form of sexual activity (oral sex, sexual intercourse). This culture of casual "hook-ups" is leading to an unhappy, unfulfilled, and confused generation. These casual sexual encounters effect students emotionally, and physically, and is thus detrimental to there wellbeing.





> *Anon1111 said *: *Hard to argue against the evidence that people are ill suited to long term monogamy.
> 
> I would bet you that almost all LDs will find their libido once their current relationship ends, however*.


That's just the excitement of a Honeymoon stage that lasts generally up to 18 months...our hormones are on a high, we may not even see clearly, everything is electric & exciting....we're all on our best behaviors at 1st...only time & shared experiences can reveal WHO WE REALLY ARE...if we realistically FIT together....what baggage we bring....the dysfunctions we struggle with.. these differences that can divide and conquer...quirks , or worse...lack of empathy... narcissistic tendencies we just can't live with or we tried to ignore, feeling it might get better.....

Maybe it's on the rarer side ..maybe less than 20% I'd venture to say... but there are couples where they treasure each other & wouldn't want anyone else...they feel as "ONE"... life would just not be the same if one was taken from the other... Monogamy can be a beautiful experience ...when you've met up with another who compliments who you are... when there is love and respect...and passion...ongoing....

Haven't we all seen marriages like this.. I have seen many in my lifetime ..I'm not going to say it is the majority, my own parents divorced ! one set of Grandparents had a Beautiful marriage, the other had it's common struggles/ they weren't as close -irritated each other on a regular basis...

A while back I sought articles to explain Passion/ Romance that sustains 20 + years.. 

Brain Study Reveals Secrets of Staying Madly in Love
What brain scans teach us about intense long-term passionate love 

Pieces of the article here...



> This article speaks about...
> 
> *Sexual Frequency
> *Closeness & Union
> ...


..................









..................









If you google "monogamy Gene".. you will find a slew of articles ...and what science is revealing in relation to our genes...our hormones...some find it relatively EASY to commit for life, remaining faithful -if again, our needs are met , this will be far a smoother ride.. over others who seem to be wired for SPICE, variety, settling down is like going against their very nature.. read about the Prairie vole studies.. it's very telling... they call vasopressin the monogamy gene...

Genetics, fidelity, and marriage | Understanding Genetics


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I feel the same..... a little bit ago, I was reading a debate about the hooking up culture ... the pros and cons..what we have lost along the way.. .I feel plenty has been lost... I want to do a thread on comparing this in the near future...
> 
> The House Regrets The Rise Of A 'Hookup Culture' | Debate.org
> 
> I so agree with this...


This is what I mean. Why should we decry the alleged rise in "hook-up culture" ? It is clearly not for everyone, but it could quite possibly for good for some for a period in their life or for most of their life. 

Why do we need to have an opinion about it? 

That is what I was refering to about the cultural presumption regarding marriage. Why should there be any presumption either way?

I have two single friends who are perhaps either end of the cultural sterotype regarding single males. One has leading the idealized single life with many women and sexual relationships in this life. He tried marriage but it failed within two years and he says he should have never married in the first place. I can't say that "deep down" he is missing something or sad when compared with married people.

The other is literally living in the basement of his aging parent's house. He rarely leaves the house and spends most waking hours on the internet. Although he may look and actually be sad and lonely, he is clearly incapable of maintaining a long term relationship so he would simply end up making some poor woman miserable. 

I don't see why either should feel they are immature or otherwise incomplete without marriage.


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