# Hi. Second wife here.



## cauliflowerwings

Didn't think I'd be back in a forum but here we are. I have a partner who was married before and I'm having trouble with the concept of being the second wife.


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## Diana7

I am also a second wife but for me it's not an issue. Why do you think it's troubling you?


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## cauliflowerwings

Diana7 said:


> I am also a second wife but for me it's not an issue. Why do you think it's troubling you?


Oh I wrote a long post about it on After Divorce. Sorry, I wasn't following this thread and didn't see your reply until now. I hope that you can give some insight on my situation.


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## Diana7

cauliflowerwings said:


> Oh I wrote a long post about it on After Divorce. Sorry, I wasn't following this thread and didn't see your reply until now. I hope that you can give some insight on my situation.


OK I will read it later, am just off out.


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## cauliflowerwings

My post was deleted but idk why..

There's outright hostility and there's a clean break, and then there's my partner and their ex-spouse. I get that each marriage and divorce relationship is unique, but can you please shed some light on whether I am just overreacting or if this situation _is_ weird?

I don't know if it's just me or if this is what an actually healthy divorced relationship looks like. Please share your outsider insight.


partner used to sleep over their house on the couch if it was too late to go home (pre-Covid)
partner's ex still nonchalantly asking them to fix things around the house (toilet is plugged, bike tires need pumping)


partner's ex calls them late at night to discuss kid-related things (they work shift work and don't get home until late but 11pm calls that wake us up at night feels symptomatic of not having boundaries)
partner's parents paid for the ex to join a family vacation trip a few years ago
partner had the ex on their work insurance benefits plan up until my partner got a new job a couple weeks ago
the ex tends to control even our time with the kids. She was trying to get us to take the kids to a certain activity, when only one of the children wants to go and the other was staunchly against the activity, and we had spoken directly to the kids about this. My partner won't get the kids for Father's Day either (not even just for an hour or lunch) because it happens to be the only day off the ex has
my partner wanted to invite the ex to our wedding not because they're friends but because she's the kids' mom and she might like seeing them dressed up (?) and/or it may make it more comfortable for the kids. When I said I didn't want their ex there, they were surprised and made a light attempt to change my mind

I've always accepted that I'd be the second wife to my partner. But sometimes I kind of feel like a second wife in the sense that it's a polyamorous relationship rather than because I came second chronologically because of the examples above. As individuals, my partner's ex and my partner are awesome. The kids' mom will do anything for them. My partner does his best. But I feel like my partner is committed to pleasing their ex-wife in a way that I'll never contend or be okay with. If I'm overthinking this, please tell me so. I appreciate all your wisdom and insight. Thank you!

Background Info:
My present partner has kids from their first marriage. Their kids are preteens already, having spent the last 8 years living with their mom as their sole custodian. Partner and their ex did not have a legal custody agreement because they were both too deep in debt to hire lawyers, just a verbal agreement that the mom will give access to my partner any time. My partner left the marriage because of irreconcilable spending differences that got them in the hole. They say that they were just so miserable and eager to leave, while their ex tried to get them to stay for the family. Because my partner was the one who left, the breakup of the marriage was pinned on them and so their ex demanded the following (in retribution?):

no custody battle for the kids; as the bio mom, my partner's ex would get the kids but would let my ex access them whenever
my partner would pay $$$$ to the ex for the kids; to date, my partner pays $2k for both kids. Where we live, the typical child support is $400 each....you can see how much they overpay, but because a lawyer was never consulted they took this as acceptable
because all my partner's money went to the kids, they were not able to rebuild their credit or even afford housing suitable for their kids to visit. The arrangement became that my partner would go to their ex/kids' mom's house which the ex was "gracious enough to ask for their family to let my partner come to". The ex lived with her parents/kids' grandparents.
Pre-Covid/pre-me partner saw the kids multiple times a week at their house and their sports games. During the pandemic, at most, my partner saw the kids 2 times in a month. When I questioned if this is okay, my partner tells me that they accepted that this is the arrangement because now the kids have grown to know nothing else beyond living at their mom's and my partner just visiting and they have an almost strained relationship with my partner. They're not very eager to sleep over at our place or go with us on local trips, for examples. My partner doesn't want to rock the boat either because they don't want to upset the kids' mom.

It really bothers me that they don't have a legal custody arrangement in place. When my partner has broached the subject, their ex would accuse them of not trusting her, of keeping the kids from my partner. My partner is reminded of their guilt, and the subject is dropped. Aside from the issues that bother me about their arrangement, I realized it was all to appease their ex. The examples above stood out to me, which I now speculate stem from my partner's continued guilt/shame-induced commitment to their ex.



cauliflowerwings said:


> Update: Thank you all for taking the time to read and share your thoughts and answer my questions. I wrote down my feelings around this as well as the examples I have that prompted those feelings. We spoke after work and he started by stating plainly what he always has - that he wants to be with me and he'll always meet me where I need him to (metaphorically speaking). I half-read to him what I wrote, he listened. I told him the examples I have in the post, and he was a little blindsided. To him, those things were done just so he could be in his children's lives, make sure they're protected and provided for, and just his innate sense of helping when someone asks. I pointed out why each scenario was unacceptable to me and how they were not "normal". He listened, said he will work on my non-negotiables, and processed the conversation through the evening. By night, he conceded how wrong it was to conduct themselves the way they have and how thoughtless it was of him to not think about the optics of it, and how his attitude has hurt his progress with himself, his kids, and me.
> 
> 
> 
> What he's shown me time and time again is his willingness to rectify his missteps when he becomes aware of them. Tbh, their dynamic always bothered me but I couldn't put into words why until the collective here helped me to do just that. Of course it hurts him to be told that he screwed up - that's never fun - but he turns awareness into action, so now I just have to wait and see.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you all again.


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## Torninhalf

How long have you been with your partner?


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## cauliflowerwings

Torninhalf said:


> How long have you been with your partner?


A year and a half


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## Torninhalf

cauliflowerwings said:


> A year and a half


In total?


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## cauliflowerwings

Torninhalf said:


> In total?


We never broke up so yes in total


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## Torninhalf

cauliflowerwings said:


> We never broke up so yes in total


So from the time you met till now it’s only been a year and a half? Why did you get married so quickly?


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## cauliflowerwings

Torninhalf said:


> So from the time you met till now it’s only been a year and a half? Why did you get married so quickly?


Oh okay I see, sorry no we're not married yet. Technically we're common law partners right now and he's spoken to my family about proposing to me.

The answer to the "why" is just that we're in love? And everything else about our relationship has been great. This is something that has been pricking at me but I couldn't put it into words until now.


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## Torninhalf

cauliflowerwings said:


> Oh okay I see, sorry no we're not married yet. Technically we're common law partners right now and he's spoken to my family about proposing to me.


Common law? After a year and a half? How is that possible?


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## Blondilocks

If you are not actually married, save yourself from this ****show. Move on.


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## cauliflowerwings

Torninhalf said:


> Common law? After a year and a half? How is that possible?


Our country recognizes anyone living together under the same roof who are in a relationship to be common law.


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## Diana7

He clearly has few boundaries with her. If he wants to see the children then he needs to either take them out or bring them to your house. No hanging around at her house or doing jobs for her. He isn't her husband. Definitely no staying there over night. 
If he will not agree with you on some sensible boundaries then please don't get married.


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## Benbutton

A few things -

1. Your partner and exw have poor boundaries that require addressing. Some of the things you listed are normal while others are not.

2. Your partner is absolutely crazy not having a divorce decree with custody and child support agreements in place. This is just insanity.

3. Your partner seems to lack the intestinal fortitude required to deal with 1 & 2 above.


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## GC1234

Benbutton said:


> A few things -
> 
> 1. Your partner and exw have poor boundaries that require addressing. Some of the things you listed are normal while others are not.
> 
> 2. Your partner is absolutely crazy not having a divorce decree with custody and child support agreements in place. This is just insanity.
> 
> 3. Your partner seems to lack the intestinal fortitude required to deal with 1 & 2 above.


I agree with all of this. OP, I think you need to think about what you're willing to accept, and what you're not. Then, you need to have a nice discussion with your common law partner and let him know what you are willing to put up with, and what you simply won't tolerate. He may agree (whether genuinely or just to keep you at bay) but wait for his actions to speak, not his words, and then you'll know for sure if he means it or not. If you don't see improvement or change/boundary setting on his part, then I think it's time to re-evaluate, meaning, to leave the relationship. I don't see the need to continue if he does choose to not implement boundaries in the future. 

Do not..I repeat, DO NOT accept any marriage proposals or even consider marriage until he has PROVED change.


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## cauliflowerwings

Deleting this because I quoted you all below instead


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## cauliflowerwings

Diana7 said:


> He clearly has few boundaries with her. If he wants to see the children then he needs to either take them out or bring them to your house. No hanging around at her house or doing jobs for her. He isn't her husband. Definitely no staying there over night.
> If he will not agree with you on some sensible boundaries then please don't get married.





Benbutton said:


> A few things -
> 
> 1. Your partner and exw have poor boundaries that require addressing. Some of the things you listed are normal while others are not.
> 
> 2. Your partner is absolutely crazy not having a divorce decree with custody and child support agreements in place. This is just insanity.
> 
> 3. Your partner seems to lack the intestinal fortitude required to deal with 1 & 2 above.





GC1234 said:


> I agree with all of this. OP, I think you need to think about what you're willing to accept, and what you're not. Then, you need to have a nice discussion with your common law partner and let him know what you are willing to put up with, and what you simply won't tolerate. He may agree (whether genuinely or just to keep you at bay) but wait for his actions to speak, not his words, and then you'll know for sure if he means it or not. If you don't see improvement or change/boundary setting on his part, then I think it's time to re-evaluate, meaning, to leave the relationship. I don't see the need to continue if he does choose to not implement boundaries in the future.
> 
> Do not..I repeat, DO NOT accept any marriage proposals or even consider marriage until he has PROVED change.


Thank you all. It sounds like there's a consensus that boundaries are lacking between them. Any advice on how I start this conversation without being accusational?

Also can someone tell me what the "normal" things are vs "not normal"?


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## GC1234

cauliflowerwings said:


> Thank you all. It sounds like there's a consensus that boundaries are lacking between them. Any advice on how I start this conversation without being accusational?
> 
> Also can someone tell me what the "normal" things are vs "not normal"?


Yes. I would sit him down (and try to remain calm the whole time) and say hun, I have a concern, and just tell him what it is. I think there are boundaries lacking between you and your ex, and it makes me uncomfortable. I wanted to discuss with you my thoughts on the situation, I think you need to implement boundaries"....and then be clear with some examples. Then add, "if this is something that you can't consider doing, I understand, but I will have to re-evaluate our relationship". End and drop mic.


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## BigDaddyNY

cauliflowerwings said:


> Oh okay I see, sorry no we're not married yet. Technically we're common law partners right now and he's spoken to my family about proposing to me.
> 
> The answer to the "why" is just that we're in love? And everything else about our relationship has been great. This is something that has been pricking at me but I couldn't put it into words until now.


You're not married, and haven't been proposed to, but you mentioned that your partner wanted to invite the Ex to your wedding? That doesn't really make sense.

And since no lawyers were involved for custody, etc., are they actually divorced? I think this situation is going to be very difficult to resolve. I'm afraid that if your partner takes to harsh of a stance in setting up new boundaries after the lack of any boundaries since they "divorced" the Ex could retaliate by not letting him see the kids. Honestly your description of the situation sounds like they really haven't come to terms that they are actually divorced.


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## cauliflowerwings

BigDaddyNY said:


> You're not married, and haven't been proposed to, but you mentioned that your partner wanted to invite the Ex to your wedding? That doesn't really make sense.
> 
> And since no lawyers were involved for custody, etc., are they actually divorced? I think this situation is going to be very difficult to resolve. I'm afraid that if your partner takes to harsh of a stance in setting up new boundaries after the lack of any boundaries since they "divorced" the Ex could retaliate by not letting him see the kids. Honestly your description of the situation sounds like they really haven't come to terms that they are actually divorced.


One of the reasons this cut me so deep is because I found out months into dating that they weren't legally divorced yet but he started the process as soon as he started dating me. He didn't have the money and she demanded he pay for the whole thing since he left. To confirm, the divorce did happen.

To answer how it's possible - we're in love and everything else has been really good, and we knew we wanted to be together forever so while the proposal hasn't happened, we already know our menu. That sort of thing.


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## cauliflowerwings

GC1234 said:


> Yes. I would sit him down (and try to remain calm the whole time) and say hun, I have a concern, and just tell him what it is. I think there are boundaries lacking between you and your ex, and it makes me uncomfortable. I wanted to discuss with you my thoughts on the situation, I think you need to implement boundaries"....and then be clear with some examples. Then add, "if this is something that you can't consider doing, I understand, but I will have to re-evaluate our relationship". End and drop mic.


Thanks. I hope I can make it through that conversation calmly and without accusing him.


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## GC1234

cauliflowerwings said:


> Thanks. I hope I can make it through that conversation calmly and without accusing him.


Haha, I can empathize. I would start off well, and then somehow screw it up. I hope you find the courage to remain calm.


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## Gabriel

My advice would be to say that if you are ever to get married, you need X, Y and Z to change with the ex wife. And you might accept his proposal conditionally and reserve the right to postpone or cancel any wedding plans if X Y and Z don't change.

He's not even engaged to you yet, so it's not a huge surprise that the ex is still using him this way. But once he is committed to you, that dynamic needs to be shut down. I'd give him the chance to demonstrate that to you before making permanent decisions.


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## cauliflowerwings

Gabriel said:


> My advice would be to say that if you are ever to get married, you need X, Y and Z to change with the ex wife. And you might accept his proposal conditionally and reserve the right to postpone or cancel any wedding plans if X Y and Z don't change.
> 
> He's not even engaged to you yet, so it's not a huge surprise that the ex is still using him this way. But once he is committed to you, that dynamic needs to be shut down. I'd give him the chance to demonstrate that to you before making permanent decisions.


Of the examples I listed, which ones do you think are crossing the line? I don't want to demand anything unreasonable. She is the mother of his kids and neither of them are too financially well off, so they support each other. Makes me feel like the other woman lol but please help me understand what's crossing the line and isn't.


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## cauliflowerwings

GC1234 said:


> Haha, I can empathize. I would start off well, and then somehow screw it up. I hope you find the courage to remain calm.


Thanks. When I encounter situations like this, I tend to feel numb rather than hyperactive, but once we start talking, it's like I turn back on.


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## GC1234

cauliflowerwings said:


> Thanks. When I encounter situations like this, I tend to feel numb rather than hyperactive, but once we start talking, it's like I turn back on.


No matter what, just articulate it. If you don't, you'll hold a lot of resentment, when you could have taken care of it from the beginning.


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## Rob_1

As a man I can tell you that from what you describe your partner is lacking in the "balls and brain" departments. Why do you want to be with a man that does not have the balls to stand up for himself, legally, boundaries wise, and from what you say any other ..wise. If you need a man go find one that at least has the brains if not the balls. there's around 3 billion men in this planet to choose from.


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## NTA

I think you're trying to be idealistic and it's not going to do you any favors. The first thing i would do is get proof as to whether he has actually divorced. I don't know what databse you need but that is for public record. Also, check as to what assets are in his and/or her name. Don't buy anything jointly until they are legally divorced.


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## cauliflowerwings

NTA said:


> I think you're trying to be idealistic and it's not going to do you any favors. The first thing i would do is get proof as to whether he has actually divorced. I don't know what databse you need but that is for public record. Also, check as to what assets are in his and/or her name. Don't buy anything jointly until they are legally divorced.


They are divorced. He handed me the original document stating their divorce when it arrived. He's also started the process of a religious annulment so we can marry in church. Neither of them have assets.


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## jlg07

cauliflowerwings said:


> Thanks. I hope I can make it through that conversation calmly and without accusing him.


write DOWN what you want to say -- those bullet points you put in your initial post about this may be a good place to start with him.
IF you have these written down, make sure you FOLLOW these points and don't let the whole thing go off track -- if you see that happening, bring it back to topic.


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## jlg07

cauliflowerwings said:


> They are divorced. He handed me the original document stating their divorce when it arrived. He's also started the process of a religious annulment so we can marry in church. Neither of them have assets.


How did they get divorced without and official child custody/support arrangement?


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## 3Xnocharm

Speaking here as someone who lost her husband to the ex wife. Your partner is spineless and hasn’t detached from his ex. He jumped immediately into a relationship with you before he was even legally divorced. He may not actually be over that relationship yet. (It doesn’t matter how much he tells you that he is, his actions are saying different) he needs to have boundaries in place with her as well as getting legal arrangements squared away. Do you really want to be with a man who is too poor to even make these kinds of necessary arrangements? Who is still enmeshed with his ex? If he balks at anything that you ask of him regarding boundaries with his ex, you seriously need to cut him loose. Personally, I feel like you need to cut him loose anyway. You can do better than this I’m sure. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jlg07

My comments are in-line....



cauliflowerwings said:


> My post was deleted but idk why..
> 
> 
> There's outright hostility and there's a clean break, and then there's my partner and their ex-spouse. I get that each marriage and divorce relationship is unique, but can you please shed some light on whether I am just overreacting or if this situation _is_ weird?
> 
> I don't know if it's just me or if this is what an actually healthy divorced relationship looks like. Please share your outsider insight.
> 
> 
> partner used to sleep over their house on the couch if it was too late to go home (pre-Covid)
> NOPE -- they are divorced, NO sleeping in the same house. BS. He shouldn't BE THERE too late EVER. Why does he even go there unless it's to pickup/drop off the kids?
> 
> 
> partner's ex still nonchalantly asking them to fix things around the house (toilet is plugged, bike tires need pumping)
> NOPE -- divorced, SHE needs to deal with life now without relying on him -- he is NOT her husband anymore.
> 
> 
> partner's ex calls them late at night to discuss kid-related things (they work shift work and don't get home until late but 11pm calls that wake us up at night feels symptomatic of not having boundaries)
> So discussing the kids is fine and required. Doing it so late at night and disrupting YOUR time with him -- NO. He should have defined times where they talk about the kids unless there is some sort of urgency to what they need to discuss. Everyday things, talk on the weekend during the day. Kid has a fight at school, ok that requires immediate discussion.
> partner's parents paid for the ex to join a family vacation trip a few years ago
> Nope -- YOU go on vacation with HIM and family. His parents WAY overstepped their bounds -- they should have discussed anything like this with the both of you before doing it. If SHE wants to go on vacation with the kids, SHE can do that (without your H) They are no longer a family, so no family vacations together.
> partner had the ex on their work insurance benefits plan up until my partner got a new job a couple weeks ago
> That may have been part of the divorce agreement, no particular issues with this. NOW he's changed it, so all good.
> the ex tends to control even our time with the kids. She was trying to get us to take the kids to a certain activity, when only one of the children wants to go and the other was staunchly against the activity, and we had spoken directly to the kids about this. My partner won't get the kids for Father's Day either (not even just for an hour or lunch) because it happens to be the only day off the ex has
> This needs a firm, legal, custody agreement where holidays, days, frequency, etc. is all spelled out.
> my partner wanted to invite the ex to our wedding not because they're friends but because she's the kids' mom and she might like seeing them dressed up (?) and/or it may make it more comfortable for the kids. When I said I didn't want their ex there, they were surprised and made a light attempt to change my mind
> Nope. This is YOUR wedding, not the kids, not hers, etc.. YOU get to decide that. If she wants to see them dressed up, she can see the pictures after the fact. It sounds like your partner MAY be divorced legally, but certainly NOT emotionally. I see this as a HUGE red flag.
> 
> I've always accepted that I'd be the second wife to my partner. But sometimes I kind of feel like a second wife in the sense that it's a polyamorous relationship rather than because I came second chronologically because of the examples above. As individuals, my partner's ex and my partner are awesome. The kids' mom will do anything for them. My partner does his best. But I feel like my partner is committed to pleasing their ex-wife in a way that I'll never contend or be okay with. If I'm overthinking this, please tell me so. I appreciate all your wisdom and insight. Thank you!
> 
> Background Info:
> My present partner has kids from their first marriage. Their kids are preteens already, having spent the last 8 years living with their mom as their sole custodian. Partner and their ex did not have a legal custody agreement because they were both too deep in debt to hire lawyers, just a verbal agreement that the mom will give access to my partner any time. My partner left the marriage because of irreconcilable spending differences that got them in the hole. They say that they were just so miserable and eager to leave, while their ex tried to get them to stay for the family. Because my partner was the one who left, the breakup of the marriage was pinned on them and so their ex demanded the following (in retribution?):
> 
> no custody battle for the kids; as the bio mom, my partner's ex would get the kids but would let my ex access them whenever Needs a true LEGAL custody agreement.
> my partner would pay $$$$ to the ex for the kids; to date, my partner pays $2k for both kids. Where we live, the typical child support is $400 each....you can see how much they overpay, but because a lawyer was never consulted they took this as acceptable Again, this needs to be redressed -- if he overpays THAT MUCH, that just feeds the exW financial irresponsibility. This needs to be done legally. If they don't argue, it shouldn't be that much $$ for a lawyer to draw that up.
> because all my partner's money went to the kids, they were not able to rebuild their credit or even afford housing suitable for their kids to visit. The arrangement became that my partner would go to their ex/kids' mom's house which the ex was "gracious enough to ask for their family to let my partner come to". The ex lived with her parents/kids' grandparents. So if SHE/they live with her parents, WHY IS YOUR PARTNER FIXING ANYTHING THERE?? The ONLY time he should be there is to PICK UP the kids and take them for HIS time with them, NOT spending time THERE with them. This is the exW trying to control your partner.
> Pre-Covid/pre-me partner saw the kids multiple times a week at their house and their sports games. During the pandemic, at most, my partner saw the kids 2 times in a month. When I questioned if this is okay, my partner tells me that they accepted that this is the arrangement because now the kids have grown to know nothing else beyond living at their mom's and my partner just visiting and they have an almost strained relationship with my partner. They're not very eager to sleep over at our place or go with us on local trips, for examples. My partner doesn't want to rock the boat either because they don't want to upset the kids' mom. So this is a surefire way to have his kids alienated from the partner. HE is going to lose them -- they won't want to be around him, talk to him, etc. I bet the exW is working on them and blaming HIM for breaking up that family -- basically poisoning them against their father. HE needs to wake up on this and take action. Screw upsetting "mom". They are his kids just as much as hers.
> 
> It really bothers me that they don't have a legal custody arrangement in place. When my partner has broached the subject, their ex would accuse them of not trusting her, of keeping the kids from my partner. My partner is reminded of their guilt, and the subject is dropped.
> He needs to man up and turn it back on HER -- SHE is the one that caused the divorce not him. The custody agreement has NOTHING to do with trusting her or not -- it's to make sure a clear, defined plan (including support) is defined. If the kids know this, it will be MUCH better for them instead of constantly changing when they can see Dad.
> Your partner REALLY needs to man up here.
> Aside from the issues that bother me about their arrangement, I realized it was all to appease their ex. The examples above stood out to me, which I now speculate stem from my partner's continued guilt/shame-induced commitment to their ex.


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## Rob_1

3Xnocharm said:


> *you can do better than this I’m sure.*


And.... that's the crux of the whole equation. Will she do it? realistically, probably not, until she gets pushed aside.


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## Openminded

You aren’t wrong about how you feel. I think you will have a very difficult time of it.


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## Diana7

cauliflowerwings said:


> Thank you all. It sounds like there's a consensus that boundaries are lacking between them. Any advice on how I start this conversation without being accusational?
> 
> Also can someone tell me what the "normal" things are vs "not normal"?


So he told you he was divorced but was still married? Does that concern you?


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## Diana7

Will you get an annulment when t


cauliflowerwings said:


> They are divorced. He handed me the original document stating their divorce when it arrived. He's also started the process of a religious annulment so we can marry in church. Neither of them have assets.


Will you get an annulment when there is no reason for it? Isn't that saying that the children weren't born in a marriage?


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## cauliflowerwings

Diana7 said:


> So he told you he was divorced but was still married? Does that concern you?


Of course. I was furious. I forgave him.


Diana7 said:


> Will you get an annulment when t
> Will you get an annulment when there is no reason for it? Isn't that saying that the children weren't born in a marriage?


No, the annulment does not mean that the children are illegitimate. I'm not sure what you mean by "there is no reason for it"? Can you please explain?


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## cauliflowerwings

Openminded said:


> You aren’t wrong about how you feel. I think you will have a very difficult time of it.


Thank you.


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## Torninhalf

cauliflowerwings said:


> Of course. I was furious. I forgave him.
> 
> No, the annulment does not mean that the children are illegitimate. I'm not sure what you mean by "there is no reason for it"? Can you please explain?


What is the reason for the annulment?


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## cauliflowerwings

3Xnocharm said:


> Speaking here as someone who lost her husband to the ex wife. Your partner is spineless and hasn’t detached from his ex. He jumped immediately into a relationship with you before he was even legally divorced. He may not actually be over that relationship yet. (It doesn’t matter how much he tells you that he is, his actions are saying different) he needs to have boundaries in place with her as well as getting legal arrangements squared away. Do you really want to be with a man who is too poor to even make these kinds of necessary arrangements? Who is still enmeshed with his ex? If he balks at anything that you ask of him regarding boundaries with his ex, you seriously need to cut him loose. Personally, I feel like you need to cut him loose anyway. You can do better than this I’m sure.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I really don't believe they'll get back together. I do feel you're right that he hasn't detached from his ex and they're too enmeshed - but not because of love or affection, but guilt and practical needs. Poverty is not a reason for me to not be with someone, although it does make practical things harder to navigate. He doesn't have family in this country, only had her family, and had no one to guide or support him through the divorce. So that piece of him not having done things right in the past, I can forgive. My concern is the lack of boundaries now.


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## cauliflowerwings

Torninhalf said:


> What is the reason for the annulment?


I want to get married in church. My religion recognizes all (heterosexual) unions - even the ones done outside of the church - as valid, and needs to be annulled if you want to remarry in church. It's different from a legal annulment, which is only granted here in extreme cases (e.g. you were held at gunpoint when you got married or coerced in any other way). This one is for the church to let you remarry in church only.


----------



## cauliflowerwings

jlg07 said:


> My comments are in-line....


Thank you so much for commenting on each bullet point!! It's very validating.



jlg07 said:


> How did they get divorced without and official child custody/support arrangement?


On the divorce application, you can say that a separate agreement had been reached re: custody. As for support, there's no official spousal support, which is why I was surprised about the ex being on the benefits plan.


----------



## Torninhalf

cauliflowerwings said:


> I want to get married in church. My religion recognizes all (heterosexual) unions - even the ones done outside of the church - as valid, and needs to be annulled if you want to remarry in church. It's different from a legal annulment, which is only granted here in extreme cases (e.g. you were held at gunpoint when you got married or coerced in any other way). This one is for the church to let you remarry in church only.


I would worry less about where you get married than what an actually marriage looks like.


----------



## cauliflowerwings

Gabriel said:


> My advice would be to say that if you are ever to get married, you need X, Y and Z to change with the ex wife. And you might accept his proposal conditionally and reserve the right to postpone or cancel any wedding plans if X Y and Z don't change.
> 
> He's not even engaged to you yet, so it's not a huge surprise that the ex is still using him this way. But once he is committed to you, that dynamic needs to be shut down. I'd give him the chance to demonstrate that to you before making permanent decisions.


Thank you. I'm going to jot down what are non-negotiables for me. We'll talk about it tonight after work.


----------



## Diana7

cauliflowerwings said:


> Of course. I was furious. I forgave him.
> 
> No, the annulment does not mean that the children are illegitimate. I'm not sure what you mean by "there is no reason for it"? Can you please explain?


As in it wasn't a sexless marriage. No one was under age or forced into it. What grounds are there for an annulment?


----------



## cauliflowerwings

Diana7 said:


> As in it wasn't a sexless marriage. No one was under age or forced into it. What grounds are there for an annulment?


I answered this earlier so I'm just copying and pasting: My religion recognizes all (heterosexual) unions - even the ones done outside of the church - as valid, and needs to be annulled if you want to remarry in church. It's different from a legal annulment, which is only granted here in extreme cases (e.g. you were held at gunpoint when you got married or coerced in any other way). This one is for the church to let you remarry in church only.


----------



## Diana7

cauliflowerwings said:


> I answered this earlier so I'm just copying and pasting: My religion recognizes all (heterosexual) unions - even the ones done outside of the church - as valid, and needs to be annulled if you want to remarry in church. It's different from a legal annulment, which is only granted here in extreme cases (e.g. you were held at gunpoint when you got married or coerced in any other way). This one is for the church to let you remarry in church only.


What are their grounds? They may not marry you unless his divorce is for specific reasons. 

I think you would be very unwise to think of marriage to a man who hasn't cut the emotional ties with his ex. Nor has she with him. They never have after 8 years!!
For me the non negotiable boundaries would be, 
No staying overnight. No 
meeting the children at her house. You can take them out or they come to your house. No more doing jobs around the house. There is no need for him to enter her house. 
No more late night calls. She can text if she needs to contact him but no calls unless it's a real emergency.
Def no ex at wedding. 
Renegotiate child support unless he earns a lot. What he pays is too much if he hasn't much money. 

If he refuses to cut those ties or set healthy boundaries then don't get married is my advise.


----------



## cauliflowerwings

Diana7 said:


> What are their grounds? They may not marry you unless his divorce is for specific reasons.
> 
> I think you would be very unwise to think of marriage to a man who hasn't cut the emotional ties with his ex. Nor has she with him. They never have after 8 years!!
> For me the non negotiable boundaries would be,
> No staying overnight. No
> meeting the children at her house. You can take them out or they come to your house. No more doing jobs around the house. There is no need for him to enter her house.
> No more late night calls. She can text if she needs to contact him but no calls unless it's a real emergency.
> Def no ex at wedding.
> Renegotiate child support unless he earns a lot. What he pays is too much if he hasn't much money.
> 
> If he refuses to cut those ties or set healthy boundaries then don't get married is my advise.


He had stayed overnight way before he and I met, and it was more out of necessity because there was an early morning for the kids the next day or something. Also, he had to visit them at their place because his place was usually not suitable for kids (multiple roommates packed in a house, etc). Neither of things have happened since we got together. But I agree, and it's something I'm including in my non-negotiables.


----------



## Gabriel

cauliflowerwings said:


> Of the examples I listed, which ones do you think are crossing the line? I don't want to demand anything unreasonable. She is the mother of his kids and neither of them are too financially well off, so they support each other. Makes me feel like the other woman lol but please help me understand what's crossing the line and isn't.


Which ones? Probably the ones that make you the most uncomfortable. 

He should definitely not be her handyman, unless it's one of their kids' things that needs fixing. I'd shut that down.
I also wouldn't invite her to anything that didn't involve their children.


----------



## Gabriel

partner used to sleep over their house on the couch if it was too late to go home (pre-Covid) *(I'd definitely kill this one)*
partner's ex still nonchalantly asking them to fix things around the house (toilet is plugged, bike tires need pumping) - *if it's for fixings the kids things, sure, but that's it*
partner's ex calls them late at night to discuss kid-related things (they work shift work and don't get home until late but 11pm calls that wake us up at night feels symptomatic of not having boundaries) -* that seems okay to me*
partner's parents paid for the ex to join a family vacation trip a few years ago -* well, that was in the past, shouldn't be done once committed to you*
partner had the ex on their work insurance benefits plan up until my partner got a new job a couple weeks ago - *again, that's in the past now*
the ex tends to control even our time with the kids. She was trying to get us to take the kids to a certain activity, when only one of the children wants to go and the other was staunchly against the activity, and we had spoken directly to the kids about this. My partner won't get the kids for Father's Day either (not even just for an hour or lunch) because it happens to be the only day off the ex has - *she will have some control over their kids, but shouldn't control YOUR/HIS time with them.*
my partner wanted to invite the ex to our wedding not because they're friends but because she's the kids' mom and she might like seeing them dressed up (?) and/or it may make it more comfortable for the kids. When I said I didn't want their ex there, they were surprised and made a light attempt to change my mind. *If you don't want the ex at your wedding, you shouldn't be forced to have her there. *


----------



## coquille

OP, I'll share my experience in hope it will help you see the future of your relationship with this guy. I was in an 18-month relationship with a great guy: nice, highly educated, a great father, and hard working and wealthy. He is ridden with guilt about his divorce, though, and his ex reminds him constantly of this. The result is a lack of boundaries. She imposed on him her own boundaries, but she punishes him for his actions as though they were still married. She retaliates for anything that doesn't please her by forbidding him to pick up his children at her house (she remarried recently); she doesn't allow him to bring me or his family to the kids' school events if they happen during her week of custody, etc. Even though she is a married woman now, he is still haunted by her as an authority figure. He stopped paying her alimony (he was paying loads of money for alimony until she remarried), but her daughter took over. She does the same manipulations that her mother used to do to him. She is so capricious and she faces no consequences to whatever she does to her father. He has no boundaries with his children, so the oldest daughter is reproducing her mother's actions, extorting money from the father and giving him no respect or gratitude for whatever he does for her. Instead, she reminds him of his guilt for the divorce, although it was the mother who wanted the divorce. He wanted to stay until the last minute. I was not bothered by this initially because I was not much involved in his relationship with his children and ex, but I could clearly see that he hasn't detached and he was facing the consequences every second of his life. He is free to lead the life he wants, but I don't want to be part of this circus. When he asked me to marry him and move in with him, I knew that his kids would be running my life. I broke up with him. You mentioned that your boyfriend's children have resentment against him. I can tell you that this resentment will aggravate with time, and you will bear the consequences along with him for life. For me it was not worth it.


----------



## MJJEAN

I question the judgement of any man that accepts a verbal only custody agreement. These are his children. Even if he THINKS she wouldn't take them from him or limit his contact he was willing to take that chance with something so important rather than get it in writing and make it legally enforceable just in case. She wouldn't be able to control visitation AT ALL and upsetting her would be irrelevant if he'd sacked up and got custody arranged in black and white, signed by a judge.

I seriously question the judgement of a man who will pay ANYTHING without knowing, for sure, what his actual obligation is. The extra money he's paying is literally taking assets from your shared household and distributing them to his ex for...reasons. Is she too poor? Perhaps she needs to learn to live within her means. As long as he's willing to buy anything extra they may need there is no reason to pay their mother more than legally required. He tanked his credit, which will effect you when it comes to mortgages and loans, and couldn't even provide a place for his kids to come in order to give to her rather than insist she stand on her own like an adult.

He stayed over at her house? Are you kidding me? That would be a firm "Hell no!" They aren't a couple and unless it's literally a medical emergency there is no reason for him to be at her house late at night, much less staying over.

He is no longer her domestic partner. It's her house, not his. It's her responsibility to maintain her house for herself and the kids, not his. Why is she not fixing what needs fixing? YouTube has many videos. I hear it's possible to call neighbors, family, and even professionals.

Late at night calls knowing damn well most people are already asleep? Yeah, no. Send a text or email unless it's an actual emergency involving the kids.

There is no need for him to see the kids at her house. He can take them out and he can bring them to relatives homes or your joint home, but there is no reason for him to go to hers unless they're playing happy family. And at this point, I would wonder. It sounds like the legal divorce was finalized, but the personal divorce hasn't happened yet.

As for the wedding, invite her if you like her, think she would add to the joy of the day, and want her to attend as a friend. Otherwise, no. Absolutely not.


----------



## NTA

cauliflowerwings said:


> They are divorced. He handed me the original document stating their divorce when it arrived. He's also started the process of a religious annulment so we can marry in church. Neither of them have assets.


He or they never owned the house they lived in?


----------



## cauliflowerwings

NTA said:


> He or they never owned the house they lived in?


No they did not. They rented, and then moved into her parents'.


----------



## cauliflowerwings

Gabriel said:


> partner used to sleep over their house on the couch if it was too late to go home (pre-Covid) *(I'd definitely kill this one)*
> partner's ex still nonchalantly asking them to fix things around the house (toilet is plugged, bike tires need pumping) - *if it's for fixings the kids things, sure, but that's it*
> partner's ex calls them late at night to discuss kid-related things (they work shift work and don't get home until late but 11pm calls that wake us up at night feels symptomatic of not having boundaries) -* that seems okay to me*
> partner's parents paid for the ex to join a family vacation trip a few years ago -* well, that was in the past, shouldn't be done once committed to you*
> partner had the ex on their work insurance benefits plan up until my partner got a new job a couple weeks ago - *again, that's in the past now*
> the ex tends to control even our time with the kids. She was trying to get us to take the kids to a certain activity, when only one of the children wants to go and the other was staunchly against the activity, and we had spoken directly to the kids about this. My partner won't get the kids for Father's Day either (not even just for an hour or lunch) because it happens to be the only day off the ex has - *she will have some control over their kids, but shouldn't control YOUR/HIS time with them.*
> my partner wanted to invite the ex to our wedding not because they're friends but because she's the kids' mom and she might like seeing them dressed up (?) and/or it may make it more comfortable for the kids. When I said I didn't want their ex there, they were surprised and made a light attempt to change my mind. *If you don't want the ex at your wedding, you shouldn't be forced to have her there. *


Thank you!! All of these make me uncomfortable, but I wasn't sure which ones to let go and which ones are reasonable to feel upset over.


coquille said:


> OP, I'll share my experience in hope it will help you see the future of your relationship with this guy. I was in an 18-month relationship with a great guy: nice, highly educated, a great father, and hard working and wealthy. He is ridden with guilt about his divorce, though, and his ex reminds him constantly of this. The result is a lack of boundaries. She imposed on him her own boundaries, but she punishes him for his actions as though they were still married. She retaliates for anything that doesn't please her by forbidding him to pick up his children at her house (she remarried recently); she doesn't allow him to bring me or his family to the kids' school events if they happen during her week of custody, etc. Even though she is a married woman now, he is still haunted by her as an authority figure. He stopped paying her alimony (he was paying loads of money for alimony until she remarried), but her daughter took over. She does the same manipulations that her mother used to do to him. She is so capricious and she faces no consequences to whatever she does to her father. He has no boundaries with his children, so the oldest daughter is reproducing her mother's actions, extorting money from the father and giving him no respect or gratitude for whatever he does for her. Instead, she reminds him of his guilt for the divorce, although it was the mother who wanted the divorce. He wanted to stay until the last minute. I was not bothered by this initially because I was not much involved in his relationship with his children and ex, but I could clearly see that he hasn't detached and he was facing the consequences every second of his life. He is free to lead the life he wants, but I don't want to be part of this circus. When he asked me to marry him and move in with him, I knew that his kids would be running my life. I broke up with him. You mentioned that your boyfriend's children have resentment against him. I can tell you that this resentment will aggravate with time, and you will bear the consequences along with him for life. For me it was not worth it.


Thankfully she's never explicitly done anything to keep the kids from him, but I do think she does it inadvertently because she feels entitled to it. Also, she's done it enough that years later and the kids have an awkward relationship with their dad. It's a very good point that he acts like she is an authority figure to him as much as she is to their kids. 


MJJEAN said:


> I question the judgement of any man that accepts a verbal only custody agreement. These are his children. Even if he THINKS she wouldn't take them from him or limit his contact he was willing to take that chance with something so important rather than get it in writing and make it legally enforceable just in case. She wouldn't be able to control visitation AT ALL and upsetting her would be irrelevant if he'd sacked up and got custody arranged in black and white, signed by a judge.
> 
> I seriously question the judgement of a man who will pay ANYTHING without knowing, for sure, what his actual obligation is. The extra money he's paying is literally taking assets from your shared household and distributing them to his ex for...reasons. Is she too poor? Perhaps she needs to learn to live within her means. As long as he's willing to buy anything extra they may need there is no reason to pay their mother more than legally required. He tanked his credit, which will effect you when it comes to mortgages and loans, and couldn't even provide a place for his kids to come in order to give to her rather than insist she stand on her own like an adult.
> 
> He stayed over at her house? Are you kidding me? That would be a firm "Hell no!" They aren't a couple and unless it's literally a medical emergency there is no reason for him to be at her house late at night, much less staying over.
> 
> He is no longer her domestic partner. It's her house, not his. It's her responsibility to maintain her house for herself and the kids, not his. Why is she not fixing what needs fixing? YouTube has many videos. I hear it's possible to call neighbors, family, and even professionals.
> 
> Late at night calls knowing damn well most people are already asleep? Yeah, no. Send a text or email unless it's an actual emergency involving the kids.
> 
> There is no need for him to see the kids at her house. He can take them out and he can bring them to relatives homes or your joint home, but there is no reason for him to go to hers unless they're playing happy family. And at this point, I would wonder. It sounds like the legal divorce was finalized, but the personal divorce hasn't happened yet.
> 
> As for the wedding, invite her if you like her, think she would add to the joy of the day, and want her to attend as a friend. Otherwise, no. Absolutely not.


Of course it's easy for us to say those things about someone who didn't do the right things when they separated. I think he made incredibly poor choices. But he made the choices based on the situation he found himself in, and as much as I disagree with it, I've learned I can't penalize him for that. He does that to himself enough for both of us. Hence the situation we're in now where guilt is driving his decisions. I'm interested in how I can do my part to protect myself and be the support he didn't have before. Having said that, "a personal divorce hasn't happened" - I think that sums it up.


----------



## Blondilocks

How old are you and your partner and how old are the kids?

Have you been married before? Any kids of your own?

It sounds like living with you has been an upgrade over his previous living arrangements. How are you going to feel knowing that legally he could be on the hook for $800/mo child support and is willingly paying $1200/mo spousal support? Are you willing to foot the bill for his improved living conditions? What happens if you want a child?


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## cauliflowerwings

Blondilocks said:


> How old are you and your partner and how old are the kids?
> 
> Have you been married before? Any kids of your own?
> 
> It sounds like living with you has been an upgrade over his previous living arrangements. How are you going to feel knowing that legally he could be on the hook for $800/mo child support and is willingly paying $1200/mo spousal support? Are you willing to foot the bill for his improved living conditions? What happens if you want a child?


I'm sorry but I'm not really sure what your point is with any of your questions. But overall, yes being with me is an upgrade.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

cauliflowerwings said:


> I'm sorry but I'm not really sure what your point is with any of your questions. But overall, yes being with me is an upgrade.


What she is getting out with these questions is that you are essentially going to be carrying him. That makes him not much of a partner. Is that really what you want in a relationship?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cauliflowerwings

3Xnocharm said:


> What she is getting out with these questions is that you are essentially going to be carrying him. That makes him not much of a partner. Is that really what you want in a relationship?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ah. That isn't the case, no. I.e. I'm not carrying him/this relationship. He's contributing his fair share financially, in household management, gifting, etc. The questions were weird to me because they seemed to operate with the premise that his interactions with the ex equals negligence on other areas of our relationship.


----------



## frusdil

cauliflowerwings said:


> I answered this earlier so I'm just copying and pasting: My religion recognizes all (heterosexual) unions - even the ones done outside of the church - as valid, and needs to be annulled if you want to remarry in church. It's different from a legal annulment, which is only granted here in extreme cases (e.g. you were held at gunpoint when you got married or coerced in any other way). This one is for the church to let you remarry in church only.


I'm a second wife too, so I get the issues you're having. I'll come back to that later, but just wanted to touch on the above. You can't reasonably ask him to annul his first marriage, it produced children. I would be absolutely devastated if my parents had been divorced, and one of them asked the other to have the marriage annulled so they could remarry. I would never forgive them or my step parent. What an absolute insult to both my other parent and my siblings.


----------



## cauliflowerwings

Update: Thank you all for taking the time to read and share your thoughts and answer my questions. I wrote down my feelings around this as well as the examples I have that prompted those feelings. We spoke after work and he started by stating plainly what he always has - that he wants to be with me and he'll always meet me where I need him to (metaphorically speaking). I half-read to him what I wrote, he listened. I told him the examples I have in the post, and he was a little blindsided. To him, those things were done just so he could be in his children's lives, make sure they're protected and provided for, and just his innate sense of helping when someone asks. I pointed out why each scenario was unacceptable to me and how they were not "normal". He listened, said he will work on my non-negotiables, and processed the conversation through the evening. By night, he conceded how wrong it was to conduct themselves the way they have and how thoughtless it was of him to not think about the optics of it, and how his attitude has hurt his progress with himself, his kids, and me. 

What he's shown me time and time again is his willingness to rectify his missteps when he becomes aware of them. Tbh, their dynamic always bothered me but I couldn't put into words why until the collective here helped me to do just that. Of course it hurts him to be told that he screwed up - that's never fun - but he turns awareness into action, so now I just have to wait and see. 

Thank you all again.


----------



## cauliflowerwings

frusdil said:


> I'm a second wife too, so I get the issues you're having. I'll come back to that later, but just wanted to touch on the above. You can't reasonably ask him to annul his first marriage, it produced children. I would be absolutely devastated if my parents had been divorced, and one of them asked the other to have the marriage annulled so they could remarry. I would never forgive them or my step parent. What an absolute insult to both my other parent and my siblings.


A couple of things: I didn't ask him to do anything; he knew that I was the marrying-in-church type. That's a personal decision on my part, and on his to pursue it. Whether or not you produced children is not the only grounds for an annulment. When I read about it the first time, I was surprised to learn some of the grounds for it tbh.
The ex _was _hurt when he requested it. She didn't want to have anything to do with it, just like she didn't want to have anything to do with the divorce.
In my home country, divorce is not a thing. You can only get annulments, so my take on this is different from yours.


----------



## frusdil

cauliflowerwings said:


> A couple of things: I didn't ask him to do anything; he knew that I was the marrying-in-church type. That's a personal decision on my part, and on his to pursue it. Whether or not you produced children is not the only grounds for an annulment. When I read about it the first time, I was surprised to learn some of the grounds for it tbh.
> The ex _was _hurt when he requested it. She didn't want to have anything to do with it, just like she didn't want to have anything to do with the divorce.
> In my home country, divorce is not a thing. You can only get annulments, so my take on this is different from yours.


The fact that the marriage produced children isn't the reason an anullment shouldn't be considered, it's the effect that a request like that would have on both the ex spouse and the children. It essentially invalidates their entire life together as a family. In this situation you should be telling him not to even consider it. It's incredibly cruel.

As for your other issues re boundaries, or lack thereof with the ex wife, I absolutely agree with you. 100%. He needs to change those things now.


----------



## Diana7

frusdil said:


> I'm a second wife too, so I get the issues you're having. I'll come back to that later, but just wanted to touch on the above. You can't reasonably ask him to annul his first marriage, it produced children. I would be absolutely devastated if my parents had been divorced, and one of them asked the other to have the marriage annulled so they could remarry. I would never forgive them or my step parent. What an absolute insult to both my other parent and my siblings.


I agree on this. Annulments are completely unbiblical anyway and should only be for extreme cases such as where there has been no sex or one was underage or forced into marriage.
The fact is he was married and had children and is now divorced.


----------



## cauliflowerwings

frusdil said:


> The fact that the marriage produced children isn't the reason an anullment shouldn't be considered, it's the effect that a request like that would have on both the ex spouse and the children. It essentially invalidates their entire life together as a family. In this situation you should be telling him not to even consider it. It's incredibly cruel.
> 
> As for your other issues re boundaries, or lack thereof with the ex wife, I absolutely agree with you. 100%. He needs to change those things now.





Diana7 said:


> I agree on this. Annulments are completely unbiblical anyway and should only be for extreme cases such as where there has been no sex or one was underage or forced into marriage.
> The fact is he was married and had children and is now divorced.


I don't really feel like there's much more I can say about the annulment, without turning this thread into a discussion on people's personal choices and beliefs about the church - and that's not what I came here for.


----------



## Diana7

cauliflowerwings said:


> I don't really feel like there's much more I can say about the annulment, without turning this thread into a discussion on people's personal choices and beliefs about the church - and that's not what I came here for.


If either of you care about the children don't try for an annulment. 
We are Christians and didn't get married in a church. The marriage is valid wherever you get married after all God is everywhere.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

cauliflowerwings said:


> Of course. I was furious. I forgave him.
> 
> No, the annulment does not mean that the children are illegitimate. I'm not sure what you mean by "there is no reason for it"? Can you please explain?


You could stll get married without thw annilment


cauliflowerwings said:


> Update: Thank you all for taking the time to read and share your thoughts and answer my questions. I wrote down my feelings around this as well as the examples I have that prompted those feelings. We spoke after work and he started by stating plainly what he always has - that he wants to be with me and he'll always meet me where I need him to (metaphorically speaking). I half-read to him what I wrote, he listened. I told him the examples I have in the post, and he was a little blindsided. To him, those things were done just so he could be in his children's lives, make sure they're protected and provided for, and just his innate sense of helping when someone asks. I pointed out why each scenario was unacceptable to me and how they were not "normal". He listened, said he will work on my non-negotiables, and processed the conversation through the evening. By night, he conceded how wrong it was to conduct themselves the way they have and how thoughtless it was of him to not think about the optics of it, and how his attitude has hurt his progress with himself, his kids, and me.
> 
> What he's shown me time and time again is his willingness to rectify his missteps when he becomes aware of them. Tbh, their dynamic always bothered me but I couldn't put into words why until the collective here helped me to do just that. Of course it hurts him to be told that he screwed up - that's never fun - but he turns awareness into action, so now I just have to wait and see.
> 
> Thank you all again.


Sounds like this went really well. Good for you that you were able to speak your mind and let him know how you feel. And good for him for apparently listening and really being considerate and accepting of your feelings. I think it is a good sign for the future of your relationship.


----------



## cauliflowerwings

Diana7 said:


> If either of you care about the children don't try for an annulment.
> We are Christians and didn't get married in a church. The marriage is valid wherever you get married after all God is everywhere.


We deeply care about the children. You can't presume to make that judgement or choice for us.



BigDaddyNY said:


> You could stll get married without thw annilment
> 
> Sounds like this went really well. Good for you that you were able to speak your mind and let him know how you feel. And good for him for apparently listening and really being considerate and accepting of your feelings. I think it is a good sign for the future of your relationship.


Thanks. It usually is the way with us - we both speak our minds, we listen and we acclimate. I just didn't know how to word my concerns without it being laced with accusation and anger.


----------



## MJJEAN

frusdil said:


> I'm a second wife too, so I get the issues you're having. I'll come back to that later, but just wanted to touch on the above. You can't reasonably ask him to annul his first marriage, it produced children. I would be absolutely devastated if my parents had been divorced, and one of them asked the other to have the marriage annulled so they could remarry. I would never forgive them or my step parent. What an absolute insult to both my other parent and my siblings.


I don't want to go into the whole thing because who has that kind of time? No, Annulment does not make the children illegitimate or take away from the previous marriage. 

All marriages between a man and a woman are considered valid unless/until proven otherwise through a requested investigation, ie: the Annulment process. An Annulment acknowledges that a legal and putative marriage existed. The marriage was believed to be valid at the time therefore children born from that marriage are legitimate. The question is whether there was some defect in, say, form or consent that would render the marriage invalid religiously. 

Also, please understand that if OP is a Batpized Catholic she and all Baptized Catholics are _required_ to marry within the Church. Marriage outside the Church would place her in a state of perpetual Mortal Sin and she would be barred from the Sacraments until she rectified the situation. If she wants to marry this man she cannot do so in the Church unless he applies for a Decree of Nullity and it is granted by the Tribunal. She doesn't have any other options from a religious point of view. 



cauliflowerwings said:


> What he's shown me time and time again is his willingness to rectify his missteps when he becomes aware of them.


So, after he became aware he needed to have child support set by the court and get visitation and custody in writing he contacted a lawyer and did so?



cauliflowerwings said:


> In my home country, divorce is not a thing. You can only get annulments, so my take on this is different from yours.


Let me guess...Filipina? My Aunt is from the Philippines and deliberately did NOT marry her child's father because she knew divorce wasn't an option. Good thing as she later met my Uncle and was free to marry in the Church when the time came.


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## cauliflowerwings

MJJEAN said:


> I don't want to go into the whole thing because who has that kind of time? No, Annulment does not make the children illegitimate or take away from the previous marriage.
> 
> All marriages between a man and a woman are considered valid unless/until proven otherwise through a requested investigation, ie: the Annulment process. An Annulment acknowledges that a legal and putative marriage existed. The marriage was believed to be valid at the time therefore children born from that marriage are legitimate. The question is whether there was some defect in, say, form or consent that would render the marriage invalid religiously.
> 
> Also, please understand that if OP is a Batpized Catholic she and all Baptized Catholics are _required_ to marry within the Church. Marriage outside the Church would place her in a state of perpetual Mortal Sin and she would be barred from the Sacraments until she rectified the situation. If she wants to marry this man she cannot do so in the Church unless he applies for a Decree of Nullity and it is granted by the Tribunal. She doesn't have any other options from a religious point of view.
> 
> 
> 
> So, after he became aware he needed to have child support set by the court and get visitation and custody in writing he contacted a lawyer and did so?
> 
> 
> Let me guess...Filipina? My Aunt is from the Philippines and deliberately did NOT marry her child's father because she knew divorce wasn't an option. Good thing as she later met my Uncle and was free to marry in the Church when the time came.


On the note of the child custody - he has seen a lawyer since I pointed out how poor of a decision that was, and it was how he found out how much he was overpaying. I had a feeling from the get-go but children are always a sensitive topic for all parents, I'd think, and I wasn't going to say "hey stop giving that much to your ex" when all the money he's giving is supposed to be for the kids (i.e. that'd be like saying "stop giving that much money to your kids"). We will consult the lawyer again before getting married.

Aside from that - it's been so long of this type of arrangement and the kids are teens, it's not like a custody agreement can be easily reached and even enforceable. The kids have always been living with their mom; telling a teenager they now _have to_ also live with dad part-time? That's not going to foster good feelings. So the grave error had been made, and now rectifying it means breaking from that pattern of letting her influence so much of his own life and his relationship with the kids. It is sad because their arrangement seems to have inadvertently somewhat alienated the kids from him. I say inadvertently because I don't think his ex did this deliberately; I think she was thinking of what's best for the kids too, but was deeply misguided herself.


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## MJJEAN

cauliflowerwings said:


> On the note of the child custody - he has seen a lawyer since I pointed out how poor of a decision that was, and it was how he found out how much he was overpaying. I had a feeling from the get-go but children are always a sensitive topic for all parents, I'd think, and I wasn't going to say "hey stop giving that much to your ex" when all the money he's giving is supposed to be for the kids (i.e. that'd be like saying "stop giving that much money to your kids"). We will consult the lawyer again before getting married.
> 
> Aside from that - it's been so long of this type of arrangement and the kids are teens, it's not like a custody agreement can be easily reached and even enforceable. The kids have always been living with their mom; telling a teenager they now _have to_ also live with dad part-time? That's not going to foster good feelings. So the grave error had been made, and now rectifying it means breaking from that pattern of letting her influence so much of his own life and his relationship with the kids. It is sad because their arrangement seems to have inadvertently somewhat alienated the kids from him. I say inadvertently because I don't think his ex did this deliberately; I think she was thinking of what's best for the kids too, but was deeply misguided herself.


Yes, actually, you can say "Stop giving so much to your ex!". My closest friend just went through this with her husband. The idea is that the father meet his legally required support obligation and then, at HIS discretion, when he can reasonably afford to, he can purchase extras the kids need directly. It's not saying "Don't give to your kids!". It's saying "Don't give free money to the ex and just buy what the kids need as your ex also has an obligation to support the kids".

So, basically, the damage has been done and now he's just going to ride it out until the kids are adults?


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## cauliflowerwings

MJJEAN said:


> Yes, actually, you can say "Stop giving so much to your ex!". My closest friend just went through this with her husband. The idea is that the father meet his legally required support obligation and then, at HIS discretion, when he can reasonably afford to, he can purchase extras the kids need directly. It's not saying "Don't give to your kids!". It's saying "Don't give free money to the ex and just buy what the kids need as they need it only if the ex has also been meeting their obligation to also support the kids.
> 
> So, basically, the damage has been done and now he's just going to ride it out until the kids are adults?


Instead I said "go see a lawyer". And as I said, we will consult the lawyer again. It doesn't mean he's going to ride it out, it means it's not as simple as if his kids are still very young who wouldn't know any different. Because the kids are older, the courts will take their personal choices and feelings into account, and if their feelings are already set a certain way, it does not bode too positively for him anyway. So when we see the lawyer, it will be to figure out the best course of action because neither of us are experts in the matter or know possible long-term repercussions.


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## Beach123

He divorced her. He should be capable of making plans with the kids directly - as in contacting them to see if they want to get together.

Have him deal with his kids directly... eliminating contact with their Mother.

I did it this way with my kids (teens) and it minimized my contact with their Dad.

I explained it as “I divorced him - my contact is with you - not him”.

The only contact we have is if the kids have an extreme emergency (hospital visit). It can be done - but it should be soon so it’s habit to NOT deal with her.

If he divorced her - he should act as if he created that divide between them. He should be able to spend time with them without her watching over them.

And if he won’t - don’t stay.


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## cauliflowerwings

Beach123 said:


> He divorced her. He should be capable of making plans with the kids directly - as in contacting them to see if they want to get together.
> 
> Have him deal with his kids directly... eliminating contact with their Mother.
> 
> I did it this way with my kids (teens) and it minimized my contact with their Dad.
> 
> I explained it as “I divorced him - my contact is with you - not him”.
> 
> The only contact we have is if the kids have an extreme emergency (hospital visit). It can be done - but it should be soon so it’s habit to NOT deal with her.
> 
> If he divorced her - he should act as if he created that divide between them. He should be able to spend time with them without her watching over them.
> 
> And if he won’t - don’t stay.


They're teens now but they weren't when the separation happened, so he couldn't do it that way before. Now he is starting to make plans with the kids directly (the older one namely in the example I shared) but the child asked their mom if he could go. She then contacted my partner to half ask/half insist that the younger one go too. The reasoning behind that one is irksome to me and I won't even share it here because I already commented to my partner how 😕 it was, and he agreed. Undoing years of a certain dynamic will take time but he's doing it.


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## QuietRiot

cauliflowerwings said:


> On the note of the child custody - he has seen a lawyer since I pointed out how poor of a decision that was, and it was how he found out how much he was overpaying. I had a feeling from the get-go but children are always a sensitive topic for all parents, I'd think, and I wasn't going to say "hey stop giving that much to your ex" when all the money he's giving is supposed to be for the kids (i.e. that'd be like saying "stop giving that much money to your kids"). We will consult the lawyer again before getting married.
> 
> Aside from that - it's been so long of this type of arrangement and the kids are teens, it's not like a custody agreement can be easily reached and even enforceable. The kids have always been living with their mom; telling a teenager they now _have to_ also live with dad part-time? That's not going to foster good feelings. So the grave error had been made, and now rectifying it means breaking from that pattern of letting her influence so much of his own life and his relationship with the kids. It is sad because their arrangement seems to have inadvertently somewhat alienated the kids from him. I say inadvertently because I don't think his ex did this deliberately; I think she was thinking of what's best for the kids too, but was deeply misguided herself.


I have a good deal of experience in this blended family dynamic, but I want to pose a couple questions out of curiosity.

It seems this woman has a great deal of influence over her kids, and this whole situation, which is really on your boyfriend for allowing it but that’s beside the point. Here are my questions, a little food for thought:

How will she react to having this whole situation that they’ve all been used to for years... flipped upside down? (i.e. child support cut in half and then some, asking for boundaries that were never there before, etc.) What person do you think will be blamed for these changes when they all find out you’re going to be married? Whose side do you think the kids will take?

Are you willing to be the gal that he “picks” over his kids? That will be you regardless if he wanted that eventuality, regardless if you think it’s true or not, that’s what everyone including his kids will believe. Probably even his own parents if they are paying for the ex to vacation with them and saw nothing wrong with their situation all these years. 

My advice to anyone who asks how to deal with this stuff is NEVER go into a blended dynamic trying to change it. Either accept it as is and proceed, or wait until the last child support payment is made before proceeding.


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## cauliflowerwings

QuietRiot said:


> I have a good deal of experience in this blended family dynamic, but I want to pose a couple questions out of curiosity.
> 
> It seems this woman has a great deal of influence over her kids, and this whole situation, which is really on your boyfriend for allowing it but that’s beside the point. Here are my questions, a little food for thought:
> 
> How will she react to having this whole situation that they’ve all been used to for years... flipped upside down? (i.e. child support cut in half and then some, asking for boundaries that were never there before, etc.) What person do you think will be blamed for these changes when they all find out you’re going to be married? Whose side do you think the kids will take?
> 
> Are you willing to be the gal that he “picks” over his kids? That will be you regardless if he wanted that eventuality, regardless if you think it’s true or not, that’s what everyone including his kids will believe. Probably even his own parents if they are paying for the ex to vacation with them and saw nothing wrong with their situation all these years.
> 
> My advice to anyone who asks how to deal with this stuff is NEVER go into a blended dynamic trying to change it. Either accept it as is and proceed, or wait until the last child support payment is made before proceeding.


Thanks for these prompts. He told his ex as soon as we started seeing each other that he could see where this was headed and that it's what he wanted: marriage and a child with me. Within months, he told the same to his parents. He had already started "flipping" things upside down starting last year on his own. Did I encourage it? Yes, in the sense that I remind him his feelings, ideas and position in their lives are just as valid as hers. One matter that I have in mind is surrounding a financial matter - he's always said no to a certain expense that he feels is living beyond their means, since way before I came along. She's always done as she wanted and then asked for the cash after anyway. He's since put his foot down about not giving her the money that neither of them had for an expense that tbh was wasted anyway because of the pandemic. When it comes to spending time with us, the kids went from seeing their dad in the evenings at their place pre-Covid and pre-me to them coming to our home on a set schedule and lounging on the couch and rummaging through the pantry. My goal is to get them comfortable enough that one day they'll 💩 or shower here.

I didn't come into this relationship envisioning he'll change his life for me, but in our relationship we recognize and actively work toward meeting each other's needs and encouraging each other grow. We recognize this means change and we're okay with that as long as the change is in line with what we value. He and his ex have had conversations about necessary changes and while she's not necessarily excited about them (naturally), she expresses that she needs time to adjust and she does adjust. Things were always going to change as each of them moves on with their lives. I give him pep talks and point out where he may have blind spots so he can go where he wants to.

When it comes to the children - that's trickier since they're children. My partner is much more careful and gradual in introducing change to them, and talks to them (especially the older one) before a big anticipated change. Their mom has said that the kids do like me. I have playful, friendly relationships with them. There is a strained relationship between the kids and their dad because of the arrangement they've had and the fact that he's the one who left the mom, but he has been consistently present in their lives. The transition will be tough, I'm sure, but he's not going to stop living his life and we're not going to not get married and build a life together because the future looks challenging. We can only prepare and integrate them into our lives as much as they're open to it.


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## frusdil

MJJEAN said:


> I don't want to go into the whole thing because who has that kind of time? No, Annulment does not make the children illegitimate or take away from the previous marriage.
> 
> All marriages between a man and a woman are considered valid unless/until proven otherwise through a requested investigation, ie: the Annulment process. An Annulment acknowledges that a legal and putative marriage existed. The marriage was believed to be valid at the time therefore children born from that marriage are legitimate. The question is whether there was some defect in, say, form or consent that would render the marriage invalid religiously.
> 
> Also, please understand that if OP is a Batpized Catholic she and all Baptized Catholics are _required_ to marry within the Church. Marriage outside the Church would place her in a state of perpetual Mortal Sin and she would be barred from the Sacraments until she rectified the situation. If she wants to marry this man she cannot do so in the Church unless he applies for a Decree of Nullity and it is granted by the Tribunal. She doesn't have any other options from a religious point of view.
> 
> 
> 
> So, after he became aware he needed to have child support set by the court and get visitation and custody in writing he contacted a lawyer and did so?
> 
> 
> Let me guess...Filipina? My Aunt is from the Philippines and deliberately did NOT marry her child's father because she knew divorce wasn't an option. Good thing as she later met my Uncle and was free to marry in the Church when the time came.


I know that. I am a baptised catholic myself. It's not for religious reasons the annulment shouldn't happen, its to basically void, nullify, wipe out a reality that happened. There's no changing it.

I would never forgive my parent, I'd likely cut them out of my life.


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## Beach123

If you want to formally marry him that’s one thing (and reasonable) but to expect him to annul his prior marriage when he has kids from that marriage is completely unreasonable.

If you are set on a church wedding - date someone who has never been married.

If you plan to marry him - adjust the type of wedding you expect.

The adjustment should come from you. You knew he was married before - why did you keep dating him if you’re set on a church wedding?

And if you’re so set on a certain church wedding - why would you live with him before marriage? 

Your guidelines/qualifications aren’t aligned properly.


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## MJJEAN

frusdil said:


> I know that. I am a baptised catholic myself. It's not for religious reasons the annulment shouldn't happen, *its to basically void, nullify, wipe out a reality that happened.* There's no changing it.
> 
> I would never forgive my parent, I'd likely cut them out of my life.


Except, again, that is not what Annulment does. The Church acknowledges that a legal marriage existed. The marriage was not, however, Sacramentally valid. That's all.


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## Diana7

cauliflowerwings said:


> We deeply care about the children. You can't presume to make that judgement or choice for us.
> 
> 
> Thanks. It usually is the way with us - we both speak our minds, we listen and we acclimate. I just didn't know how to word my concerns without it being laced with accusation and anger.


If you care you won't try and anull their parents marriage. A poster has explained how very hurtful that is.


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## DownByTheRiver

I don't think you're unreasonable. I mean, it sounds like the partner probably still wants him back and for sure wants him to behave like a husband in a lot of ways. So that likely means she's there ready and willing first time you two get into an argument. You can be civilized to exes for the kids' sake and appreciate them as a person you simply can't live with, but sounds to me like her making excuses to sleep over, she's basically still staking her claim. And he's letting her, probably because men always seem to find it flattering if there's two women wanting them. 

I dated (decades ago) a couple of separated and divorcing guys, and both of them told me they couldn't imagine never sleeping with their soon-to-be ex-wife ever again. I mean, guys would always tell me anything, things they never told anyone. They both had the same kind of panicked look talking about it. One of these women had leap-frogged to another relationship while still married. They remained cordial, but she had moved on so she wasn't pushy about things and was cordial to me. 

The other apparently either slept with or tried to sleep with a couple of his closer friends, probably trying to make him jealous. She never stopped going to his gigs and dancing nasty down front either. She likely wanted him back. I broke up with him because he was still letting her basically have him on the weekends to do this or that, sorting belongings, and then he told me they went to dinner because she got so upset sorting belongings, and I dumped him right then and there. 

If for no other reason, lots of people want to bang their exes just for the ego boost or even for revenge or to show they can. 

You're going to have to lay down some boundaries and get him to agree to them, but I bet he just sneaks around instead. Kids are no excuse. Plenty of judges will advise to limit communications to being about the kids only just to avoid conflict and try to encourage stability.

He's got her right where he wants her and she's gone along with it for a reason. He basically has no real obligation to the kids at this point and probably because she is still pining for him, she will let him do whatever. But at least he's paying a couple of grand voluntarily. They sound older, but if there's any young ones, if he couldn't dump them on the ex anytime he wanted to, he'd be having to pay someone to watch them, a nanny or daycare. He'd have to be leaving work to go to the school or pick them up and take them to the doc -- and I just bet he doesn't want those responsibilities.


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## MJJEAN

Diana7 said:


> If you care you won't try and anull their parents marriage. A poster has explained how very hurtful that is.


Then her only options are to leave her faith and endanger her immortal soul or not marry this man.

I just don't get it. Why would children be hurt by an Annulment? It has no legal standing and only matters within the Church. Annulment does NOT make them illegitimate nor does Annulment deny a legal marriage existed. So what in there is hurtful?


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