# Playing Games vs. Behavior Modification



## Deejo

Talk to friends, dates, so on, quite a bit.

Consistently come up against the "I don't like playing games ..." mantra. Used to use it myself ... until I realized that I did indeed play games. On a personal level you rarely frame them that way, but I'm convinced almost everyone does. Some more subtly than others.

*edited out cornball pyromaniac child story ... wasn't working for me*

Suppose I'm trying to frame my own behavioral changes as I see them, certainly not that I'm 'teaching' anyone other than myself ... and weighing the value of what I learn, particularly based upon the responses of my partner, or those I interact with.

I guess this is a roundabout way of trying to understand why some have a crisis of conscience about making changes to influence the outcome of, or response to, any given interpersonal exchange. Has been on my mind. Figured I'd throw it out there.


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## RandomDude

The missus and I are going through this... personally I don't know... either way once she's in a better mood tomorrow she will have to answer, either way I'm happy, if she wants to continue our game-playing dynamic then I'm happy, but if she is indeed hurt and wants me to modify my behaviour (which she already has on her part), then so be it, and I'm happy if she is happy.


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## Deejo

Fits as part of my overall pondering.

I don't feel any less 'genuine' in my behavior. But if being genuine, leads to poor outcomes, then being genuine may not be the best way to go.


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## RandomDude

Can't always be too genuine mate, but it doesn't mean we should be machines. A little heart at times can go a long way. Never deal with absolutes, balance is always the key yes?


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## that_girl

To me, playing games is trying to manipulate someone into doing what you want.

However, controlling yourself and fixing yourself is not a game. If you get a good reaction from people, then fine. If not, then they don't appreciate your progress as a human. But it's not a game, it's personal growth. Which in turn can cause other people to behave differently towards you because in most cases, you have created stronger personal boundaries.


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## RandomDude

> However, controlling yourself and fixing yourself is not a game.


The previous night she thought it was a game... when I was genuine. Meh... let's say what happens in the morning.


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## that_girl

RandomDude said:


> The previous night she thought it was a game... when I was genuine. Meh... let's say what happens in the morning.


But you have created an atmosphere of emotional chaos with her. It doesn't go away in one day. You just have to keep constant with your change and she'll learn to trust it.

And change doesn't happen in one day, especially when it's a deep pattern such as this. I commend you for wanting to change, but your wife has to SEE it before believing it. And that means keeping at it EVEN WHEN she lashes out at you...she is doing that to test you. So she can say, "See! You haven't changed one bit."


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## RandomDude

True... she can't trust it.

Hell looks like tomorrow I may have to be more disturbingly genuine then I thought then if it is to get it into her head, bah! All this soapy stuff sh-ts me


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## that_girl

RandomDude said:


> True... she can't trust it.
> 
> Hell looks like tomorrow I may have to be more disturbingly genuine then I thought then if it is to get it into her head, bah! All this soapy stuff sh-ts me


Just be calm. Stable and calm. Don't talk with an excited voice. Just talk to your wife about the atmosphere of the home. No sarcasm (that was my BIGGEST thing--- I had to cut it out of my vocabulary). It took time, but well worth it.


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## RandomDude

Cool, calm, collected, no excited voice, that's the plan... in a way I'm dreading it. Meh, I'd better go to bed lest I make any more foolish lovey dovey decisions to make up to her.


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## Deejo

that_girl said:


> To me, playing games is trying to manipulate someone into doing what you want.


This is the heart of the matter to me.

If your husband wears the cologne he knows you like, buys your favorite flowers, and plays the song that makes you melt ... and as a result, YOU desperately want to sleep with him, did he manipulate you? Is that game playing? Or is he being attentive and loving?


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## Enchantment

Deejo said:


> I don't feel any less 'genuine' in my behavior. But if being genuine, leads to poor outcomes, then being genuine may not be the best way to go.


Depends. If you are talking about poor outcomes in emotional relationships with others, then you also need to contemplate that perhaps you could just be around the wrong kind of people.

Honestly, I think if you are essentially an emotionally healthy individual, you quickly realize that you should be able to be genuine with another, and if you can't, it's usually a clue to move on.


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## Enchantment

Deejo said:


> This is the heart of the matter to me.
> 
> If your husband wears the cologne he knows you like, buys your favorite flowers, and plays the song that makes you melt ... and as a result, YOU desperately want to sleep with him, did he manipulate you? Is that game playing? Or is he being attentive and loving?


I think there's a matter of intent involved. The definition of manipulation says to skillfully influence or manage, in an unfair manner.

So, let's say if your husband essentially ignores you for the most part, but when he wants 'something', he buys the flowers and wears his cologne his intent could be construed as manipulation because his heart really isn't in to caring about YOU, but it's all into caring about himself and what he wants.

Now, if your husband does pay attention to you and genuinely cares about you and knows that you like the flowers and cologne, his intent is to show you that he cares about YOU without caring what he gets out of it.

Manipulation or game-playing to me is simply about selfish intent, with not much care for the other individual that is involved. It's all about YOU, it's NOT about them or us.


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## Deejo

Enchantment said:


> Depends. If you are talking about poor outcomes with others, then you also need to contemplate that perhaps you could just be around the wrong kind of people, and honestly, I think if you are essentially an emotionally healthy individual, you quickly realize that you should be able to be genuine with another, and if you can't, it's usually a clue to move on.


Poor outcomes = not getting the desired response, or outcome that you would like to get.

True Story:
Girl I dated for over six months told me that she had been on 2 dates prior to meeting me. One guy although very pleasant, was visibly awkward and uncomfortable, on the date. He was being genuine.

Guy number 2 talked a mile a minute, and apparently (I'm totally serious here) went on in depth about his fascination with the B.B.C science fiction series, Dr. Who for the better part of an hour. He was being genuine.

Neither of them got second dates. 

That's the kind of dynamic I'm referring to. Behavior makes an impression.

If date #1 came across as confident and fun, and #2 shut his mouth to listen to his date, and NOT talk about his favorite sci-fi series on a first date ... both may have had different outcomes. So had they chosen to modify their behavior, for a more desirable outcome, does that mean they were playing games? 

Make sense?

Don't think I'm doing a very good job of explaining what I'm trying to convey. Probably didn't help myself with the kid and playing with matches story. 

I don't have any question about my choices or my behavior. Not anymore.

Suppose I wanted to open the floor for those who might.


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## Tall Average Guy

Deejo said:


> Poor outcomes = not getting the desired response, or outcome that you would like to get.
> 
> True Story:
> Girl I dated for over six months told me that she had been on 2 dates prior to meeting me. One guy although very pleasant, was visibly awkward and uncomfortable, on the date. He was being genuine.
> 
> Guy number 2 talked a mile a minute, and apparently (I'm totally serious here) went on in depth about his fascination with the B.B.C science fiction series, Dr. Who for the better part of an hour. He was being genuine.
> 
> Neither of them got second dates.
> 
> That's the kind of dynamic I'm referring to. Behavior makes an impression.
> 
> If date #1 came across as confident and fun, and #2 shut his mouth to listen to his date, and NOT talk about his favorite sci-fi series on a first date ... both may have had different outcomes. So had they chosen to modify their behavior, for a more desirable outcome, does that mean they were playing games?
> 
> Make sense?
> Suppose I wanted to open the floor for those who might.


I think there may be a distinction between modifying behaviors to be false vs. modifing behaviors to interact with others. 

In your second example, game playing would be lieing about his interest in Dr. Who or feigning interest in a different subject in an attempt to impress the girl. Behaviour modification, p the other hand, might be to only touch on the subjects that interest you (as opposing to droning on for two hours) so that you can find out what she is interested in. The second approach is genuine, but also modifies his behavior to acknowledge that in the context of a first date, getting to know the other person and having them talk is beneficial to both.


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## Trenton

Deejo said:


> This is the heart of the matter to me.
> 
> If your husband wears the cologne he knows you like, buys your favorite flowers, and plays the song that makes you melt ... and as a result, YOU desperately want to sleep with him, did he manipulate you? Is that game playing? Or is he being attentive and loving?


It's not playing a game if he sincerely enjoys doing what he's doing. If he's doing it because he read on a forum that if he does it he'll get sex, then you're dealing with playing a game or being fake. The later doesn't work, the first is ideal.


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> It's not playing a game if he sincerely enjoys doing what he's doing. If he's doing it because he read on a forum that if he does it he'll get sex, then you're dealing with playing a game or being fake. The later doesn't work, the first is ideal.


So ... even if wifey enjoys the game he played, and both benefited, it's still fake, selfish, manipulation? 

And even moreso, evil if he got the tip from a book or forum ... check. 

If a woman who never gets attention because she's demure, wears potato sacks, doesn't do her hair and never wears makeup ... but wants to date men, gets a makeover and has guys crawling all over her, which makes her happy, is she being fake?

I'm trying to find the line where you (not you Trenton) I mean the collective you, decides that game playing is evil.

I guess I just don't see the line the way I used to any more. Or to be clear, what I constitute as evil manipulation would be as Enchantment indicated, completely selfish action with the outcome of malicious harm to the other party.

Such as, a guy sweet-talking a girl the first time he meets her, with promises of a beautiful future together to get her into bed and then kicks her to the curb the following morning.


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## Sawney Beane

Deejo said:


> I'm trying to find the line where you (not you Trenton) I mean the collective you, decides that game playing is evil.


I don't think you'll find a simple short "this far is OK, that far is too far". It varies from person to person.

On the one hand, the person who stands up and says "Who's with me?" and gets a gang of people to do something ludicrously brave that needs doing is, on one level, playing games: manipulating people to achieve an outcome. No-one knocks that sort of "game", it's considered to be a good thing. 

I'm pretty sure most people would say that on the other hand that someone who uses small gifts, guilt tripping, playing on weaknesses or exploiting another person's lack of judgement or low self-esteem to get them to do something they don't really want to or shouldn't is a bad thing. 

Depending how much advantage is being taken, how hard the "sell" is, will govern what different people tell you is OK.


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## that_girl

Deejo said:


> This is the heart of the matter to me.
> 
> If your husband wears the cologne he knows you like, buys your favorite flowers, and plays the song that makes you melt ... and as a result, YOU desperately want to sleep with him, did he manipulate you? Is that game playing? Or is he being attentive and loving?


Attractive and loving.



He didn't manipulate me...I'd sleep with him anyway 

However, if I was a woman who had issues with sex and wouldn't sleep with him, and he knew this and tried to "woo" me and when I still refused, he blew up at me and we fought, then he wasn't sincere in his actions...thus making it solely manipulation to get me to go to bed with him, NOT about making me feel special, etc.


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## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> Poor outcomes = not getting the desired response, or outcome that you would like to get.
> 
> True Story:
> Girl I dated for over six months told me that she had been on 2 dates prior to meeting me. One guy although very pleasant, was visibly awkward and uncomfortable, on the date. He was being genuine.
> 
> Guy number 2 talked a mile a minute, and apparently (I'm totally serious here) went on in depth about his fascination with the B.B.C science fiction series, Dr. Who for the better part of an hour. He was being genuine.
> 
> Neither of them got second dates.
> 
> That's the kind of dynamic I'm referring to. Behavior makes an impression.
> 
> If date #1 came across as confident and fun, and #2 shut his mouth to listen to his date, and NOT talk about his favorite sci-fi series on a first date ... both may have had different outcomes. So had they chosen to modify their behavior, for a more desirable outcome, does that mean they were playing games?
> 
> Make sense?
> 
> Don't think I'm doing a very good job of explaining what I'm trying to convey. Probably didn't help myself with the kid and playing with matches story.
> 
> I don't have any question about my choices or my behavior. Not anymore.
> 
> Suppose I wanted to open the floor for those who might.


If guy number two puts on his best Tyler Durden impersonation while dating - she'll still end up marrying a guy who just wants to watch Doctor Who. So - no one is happy.


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## Deejo

Sawney Beane said:


> I don't think you'll find a simple short "this far is OK, that far is too far". It varies from person to person.
> 
> On the one hand, the person who stands up and says "Who's with me?" and gets a gang of people to do something ludicrously brave that needs doing is, on one level, playing games: manipulating people to achieve an outcome. No-one knocks that sort of "game", it's considered to be a good thing.
> 
> *I'm pretty sure most people would say that on the other hand that someone who uses small gifts, guilt tripping, playing on weaknesses or exploiting another person's lack of judgement or low self-esteem to get them to do something they don't really want to or shouldn't is a bad thing.*
> 
> Depending how much advantage is being taken, how hard the "sell" is, will govern what different people tell you is OK.


Agreed.

My own personal circumstances, I suppose I have come to see that not all 'manipulation' is bad. It's downright common and at times, extraordinarily subtle. It's easy to point out and decry when someone gets hurt.


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## that_girl

The word "game" is silly. Of course we play "games" all the time with people. Good or bad, depending on who you are. However, I do things for my husband all the time without expecting anything in return  I just like doing it. It's not a game.

But if I was doing something just so he'd do something in return, the it's a game.

I think of games more in dating. That was fun  lollll No harm, no foul. In marriage, we haven't needed games to make the other do something. We use our words and simply ask  Imagine that.


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## Deejo

that_girl said:


> Attractive and loving.
> 
> 
> 
> He didn't manipulate me...I'd sleep with him anyway


Hell, I already knew that ...



that_girl said:


> However, if I was a woman who had issues with sex and wouldn't sleep with him, and he knew this and tried to "woo" me and when I still refused, he blew up at me and we fought, then he wasn't sincere in his actions...thus making it solely manipulation to get me to go to bed with him, NOT about making me feel special, etc.


So, similar to Trenton's position; it's intent and how it is perceived rests with whether or not other party in the interpersonal transaction is willingly buying what you're selling ... correct?


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## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> If guy number two puts on his best Tyler Durden impersonation while dating - she'll still end up marrying a guy who just wants to watch Doctor Who. So - no one is happy.


Sometimes your ability to synthesize and coalesce the truth of a matter is truly frightening ...


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## Trenton

Deejo said:


> So ... even if wifey enjoys the game he played, and both benefited, it's still fake, selfish, manipulation?
> 
> And even moreso, evil if he got the tip from a book or forum ... check.
> 
> If a woman who never gets attention because she's demure, wears potato sacks, doesn't do her hair and never wears makeup ... but wants to date men, gets a makeover and has guys crawling all over her, which makes her happy, is she being fake?
> 
> I'm trying to find the line where you (not you Trenton) I mean the collective you, decides that game playing is evil.
> 
> I guess I just don't see the line the way I used to any more. Or to be clear, what I constitute as evil manipulation would be as Enchantment indicated, completely selfish action with the outcome of malicious harm to the other party.
> 
> Such as, a guy sweet-talking a girl the first time he meets her, with promises of a beautiful future together to get her into bed and then kicks her to the curb the following morning.


Hmmm I think you took my words and manipulated them Deejo. Stick to what you're good at? 

First, we're talking about offering advice in regards to long-term, committed relationships not guys and girls when they first meet.

Second, some people enjoy being fake together and really get something from it together, so maybe fake squared is what keeps them happy. If that's the case then I think they should go be fake and happy forever after. Whatever works for them. 

The problem with this advice on TAM is that we're talking about two people in a relationship and giving advice that manipulates the one partner without their knowledge. Are you really saying: hey, well the lady/dude likes it and they're both happy so what's the problem?

I would say, the problem is that what the woman or man is enjoying is what they believe to be real.

The same can be said in regards to a woman being a tiger in the bedroom until she marries the man and then slowly stops having sex all the time. Is it wrong that she did what she had to in order to get the man into the relationship since the man enjoyed it? Noooooz, it's not? Yes, yes, it is!

If I cheated on my husband with an EA and got hornier all the time because I couldn't have the PA with the other man so I started sexing up my husband, would my husband think it was OK that I was having the EA because he enjoys the sex? 

Yeah, I could keep going on and on. In all these hypothetical being honest with yourself and your partner would have been a better alternative and one that would lead to a healthier, stronger, happier commitment.


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## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> If I cheated on my husband with an EA and got hornier all the time because I couldn't have the PA with the other man so I started sexing up my husband, would my husband think it was OK that I was having the EA because he enjoys the sex?


Some might.


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## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> Sometimes your ability to synthesize and coalesce the truth of a matter is truly frightening ...


Thank you - I think. I have my moments.

My first thought on your original example was that there is enough opportunity in life to treat people about adversity without having to CREATE even more of it. Seems manipulative to me.


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## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> Some might.


True but then maybe that's why the woman is having the EA? A better question might be, does it make the cheating equal less cheating?


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## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> True but then maybe that's why the woman is having the EA? A better question might be, does it make the cheating equal less cheating?


Is that some kind of trick question?

Cheating is cheating - right?

Although there could be consent.

And yeah - its tempting to joke that having a woman around for only the physical while some other guy gets all the "emotional stuff" sounds like a marriage made in heaven. But I know better.

My thoughts oddly go to the GUY she's having the EA with. He's the only one not getting laid! She's got sex and emotional needs met - although she probably feels incomplete in some way - or perhaps feels rejected by her Husband somehow.

And using a macho / neanderthal man in the example - maybe his "emotional" needs are met through his career, or through softball and beer with the guys.

But the EA guy - he's probably a "Nice Guy" - hoping that one day his INCREDIBLE patience and "friendship" will be rewarded with some really hot sex!

Three's a crowd...


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## Deejo

I'm all over the map. You (you Trenton) know why.
Very introspective lately.

I think I'm a better, smarter, more emotionally honest with myself, and others, and simply more in tune partner than I was 3 years ago.

And I now tend to see relationships through a very different lens. I don't think there is all that much difference between how the couple in a LTR interacts vs. a couple that just met. Generally, you still want the same things, love, security, and good communication.




Trenton said:


> Hmmm I think you took my words and manipulated them Deejo. Stick to what you're good at?
> 
> First, we're talking about offering advice in regards to long-term, committed relationships not guys and girls when they first meet.
> 
> Second, some people enjoy being fake together and really get something from it together, so maybe fake squared is what keeps them happy. If that's the case then I think they should go be fake and happy forever after. Whatever works for them.
> 
> The problem with this advice on TAM is that we're talking about two people in a relationship and giving advice that manipulates the one partner without their knowledge. Are you really saying: hey, well the lady/dude likes it and they're both happy so what's the problem?
> 
> I would say, the problem is that what the woman or man is enjoying is what they believe to be real.
> 
> The same can be said in regards to a woman being a tiger in the bedroom until she marries the man and then slowly stops having sex all the time. Is it wrong that she did what she had to in order to get the man into the relationship since the man enjoyed it? Noooooz, it's not? Yes, yes, it is!
> 
> If I cheated on my husband with an EA and got hornier all the time because I couldn't have the PA with the other man so I started sexing up my husband, would my husband think it was OK that I was having the EA because he enjoys the sex?
> 
> Yeah, I could keep going on and on. In all these hypothetical being honest with yourself and your partner would have been a better alternative and one that would lead to a healthier, stronger, happier commitment.


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## heartsbeating

Deejo said:


> Guy number 2 talked a mile a minute, and apparently (I'm totally serious here) went on in depth about his fascination with the B.B.C science fiction series, Dr. Who for the better part of an hour. He was being genuine.


hahah that sounds like my DREAM DATE!!! Dr Who is awesome 

And yes, I'm serious.


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## nice777guy

heartsbeating said:


> hahah that sounds like my DREAM DATE!!! Dr Who is awesome
> 
> And yes, I'm serious.


:smthumbup:

I'm not a Dr. Who fan - but that post is just too cool!!! There really is someone for everyone!


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## Deejo

heartsbeating said:


> hahah that sounds like my DREAM DATE!!! Dr Who is awesome
> 
> And yes, I'm serious.


Which is kind of the kicker. I am also very familiar with Dr. Who ... Tom Baker, Dr. Who. But I cannot imagine thinking that a date would be interested in what I have to say about the good doctor. So, whereas this guy might have thought it's a great idea to share his personal passion ... I did not, and do not. Dahleks look stupid anyway ...


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## Tall Average Guy

Deejo said:


> So, similar to Trenton's position; it's intent and how it is perceived rests with whether or not other party in the interpersonal transaction is willingly buying what you're selling ... correct?


:iagree: This. Almost no one minds "manipulation" when it gets us to do something we wanted to do anyway.


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## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> Which is kind of the kicker. I am also very familiar with Dr. Who ... Tom Baker, Dr. Who. But I cannot imagine thinking that a date would be interested in what I have to say about the good doctor. So, whereas this guy might have thought it's a great idea to share his personal passion ... I did not, and do not. Dahleks look stupid anyway ...


But if he could have added a "dash or two" of Tyler Durden (don't wear your favorite Dr. Who coat out on the date), while also letting his Geek Flag Fly (just the umbrella) - then who knows...???


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## heartsbeating

Deejo said:


> Which is kind of the kicker. I am also very familiar with Dr. Who ... Tom Baker, Dr. Who. But I cannot imagine thinking that a date would be interested in what I have to say about the good doctor. So, whereas this guy might have thought it's a great idea to share his personal passion ... I did not, and do not. Dahleks look stupid anyway ...


Dahleks still scare the crap out of me. Not sure about those newer models though, where they were white, red etc. Tom Baker, hands-down. Although, I'll admit an absolute weakness for the 10th Doctor, David Tennant. 

Okay, so maybe that date got caught up in the excitement of talking about Dr Who (haha I've been there!) but maybe also, she was giving him signals/body language whereby he thought she was actually interested in hearing about it? Speculation. 

If that had been me though, that Dr Who conversation would have lasted hours and his chances of a second date would have been very high lol.


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## heartsbeating

Deejo said:


> So, whereas this guy might have thought it's a great idea to share his personal passion ... I did not, and do not. Dahleks look stupid anyway ...


And I don't know if I'm getting off topic here (apologies if I am), but I love to know what people are passionate about. Even if it's not something I'm into. Sure, it might play a part as to whether we're compatible in our interests but at least I'd have a clearer picture of what they're about. 

I'd much rather hear someone talk about their passion than make small, polite chit chat. Of course there are social skills that need to be considered, but if I asked someone a question that had them sitting there passionately talking about an interest for a while, I'd dig that.


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## that_girl

Tall Average Guy said:


> :iagree: This. Almost no one minds "manipulation" when it gets us to do something we wanted to do anyway.


Then it's not manipulation....:scratchhead: If i want to do something, you don't need to talk me into it.


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## heartsbeating

As for your opening story, Deejo. My take on that: I don't think you need to demonstrate consequences, to be able to understand what they are.

The story (to me) represents a more Buddhist way of learning about detachment.


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## Deejo

heartsbeating said:


> The story (to me) represents a more Buddhist way of learning about detachment.


Whoa ... didn't see that coming.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Do I have to be a penis wielder to understand the Dr. Who references?

I think the difference between playing games is that in that case you are manipulating somebody else to benefit yourself. With behavior modification, you are adjusting your reactions to benefit yourself.


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## kekel1123

that_girl said:


> To me, playing games is trying to manipulate someone into doing what you want.
> 
> However, controlling yourself and fixing yourself is not a game. If you get a good reaction from people, then fine. If not, then they don't appreciate your progress as a human. But it's not a game, it's personal growth. Which in turn can cause other people to behave differently towards you because in most cases, you have created stronger personal boundaries.


:iagree:Thats what Im doing right now! For myself! I hate mind games! IN Games, there will be a loser/winner. If you do that in a relationship,specially in a MARRIAGE, the outcome should be a WIN-WIN always!


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## Trenton

Deejo said:


> I'm all over the map. You (you Trenton) know why.
> Very introspective lately.
> 
> I think I'm a better, smarter, more emotionally honest with myself, and others, and simply more in tune partner than I was 3 years ago.
> 
> And I now tend to see relationships through a very different lens. I don't think there is all that much difference between how the couple in a LTR interacts vs. a couple that just met. Generally, you still want the same things, love, security, and good communication.


I like you very much as a person if who you are here is who you actually are. How different do you think you would have come across if I met you 3 years ago? I'm not saying I don't think there is room to grow as an individual or that we should stay stagnate. I'm saying that we should be honest about ourselves and what we want and then the person you will attract will actually have similar interests, values and is your best shot at a wonderful, long-term relationship.

So the guy who loves Dr. Who may not find the woman who loves Dr. Who right away but if he keeps being himself he will find her and then they both will be happier.

Compromising yourself to elicit certain responses from another when who you are appearing to be is not who you are, is playing a game and being manipulative.

I also disagree that initial relationships are the same as long-term and for many, many reasons.


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## Deejo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Do I have to be a penis wielder to understand the Dr. Who references?


You're kind of an honorary penis wielder ... but no ... it's a cheesy sci-fi series that has been on for oh ... I don't know, nearly 30 years or more.



Therealbrighteyes said:


> I think the difference between playing games is that in that case you are manipulating somebody else to benefit yourself. With behavior modification, you are adjusting your reactions to benefit yourself.


If you're a guy or girl, that consistently gets dumped, disrespected, and cheated on, and you DON'T think some personal changes are in order to better navigate relationships ... then you're a fool in my book. And I see those changes as being for personal gain, but I do not frame them in a negative context.


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> I like you very much as a person if who you are here is who you actually are. How different do you think you would have come across if I met you 3 years ago?


I would come across no different at all. You wouldn't be aware of what's different, because it's nothing overt.



Trenton said:


> So the guy who loves Dr. Who may not find the woman who loves Dr. Who right away but if he keeps being himself he will find her and then they both will be happier.


But in the meantime he should continue getting consistently rejected while being himself until Mrs. Dr. Who magically appears? That's a hell of a road to 'happier'.



Trenton said:


> Compromising yourself to elicit certain responses from another when who you are appearing to be is not who you are, is playing a game and being manipulative.


Alas, once again we disagree. No surprise there. You are framing 'compromise', 'game playing' and 'manipulative' as fundamentally disingenuous, dishonest, and negative. All of which they can be ... but they needn't be if you use the same sub-context but different words.

I think my beef with your way of thinking when it comes to either finding love or troubleshooting broken love is that I see your methods as having too many 'ifs'. And I suppose the reason I feel that way is because it also represents how I used to think. 

Not saying that to be disrespectful. It's actually kind of a light-bulb moment for me.


----------



## RandomDude

Speaking of games, think the missus has had her ego bruised, now she's showing her attitude. Is silent treatment game-playing? Manipulation? Meh, it's just so... normal =/


----------



## Deejo

Apparently it depends upon your interpretation ...

If you believe that she wants something from you, and by not interacting with you at all, you will pursue her to figure it out ... then it's a game.

If on the other hand, she is unsure about how she feels about the circumstances but can't bring herself to tell you that, and she's afraid of either saying the wrong thing or how you may respond, it's not a game ...

Make perfect sense?


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> I would come across no different at all. You wouldn't be aware of what's different, because it's nothing overt.
> 
> 
> 
> But in the meantime he should continue getting consistently rejected while being himself until Mrs. Dr. Who magically appears? That's a hell of a road to 'happier'.
> 
> 
> 
> Alas, once again we disagree. No surprise there. You are framing 'compromise', 'game playing' and 'manipulative' as fundamentally disingenuous, dishonest, and negative. All of which they can be ... but they needn't be if you use the same sub-context but different words.
> 
> I think my beef with your way of thinking when it comes to either finding love or troubleshooting broken love is that I see your methods as having too many 'ifs'. And I suppose the reason I feel that way is because it also represents how I used to think.
> 
> Not saying that to be disrespectful. It's actually kind of a light-bulb moment for me.


Come to think of it, I don't even think saying Man Up is being honest with the man you're saying it to. What you're really saying is if you got to the point where we have to tell you to Man Up things are really bad and you are being disrespected, your needs are not being counted and your relationship sucks so be ready to say you're going to walk and mean it. In the meantime, work on yourself...become more individualized and less dependent on what's left of your pathetic relationship.

We don't say that though. Instead we give them hope and tell them to work on themselves and try techniques that might shock the woman into behavior changes. It's happened to so many men, you're not alone, join the club, etc.

It totally lacks room for coupledom, assumes the guy really is where he says he is and not where he thinks he is, and discounts the other side and possibilities entirely.

Yeah, I don't like it. Can you tell...again?

We may never agree. I think that's alright. Your reasoning doesn't make sense to me but I understand that it does to you.


----------



## Trenton

RandomDude said:


> Speaking of games, think the missus has had her ego bruised, now she's showing her attitude. Is silent treatment game-playing? Manipulation? Meh, it's just so... normal =/


It is manipulation and game playing but your relationship might be an example where both of you signed up for it and it is what your relationship is based on. I wonder where you'd both be without it. Bored possibly? Disinterested?


----------



## RandomDude

Hmm... I have no idea... my gut tells me it's the first, also mixed with a bit of the second... =/


----------



## RandomDude

> It is manipulation and game playing but your relationship might be an example where both of you signed up for it and it is what your relationship is based on. I wonder where you'd both be without it. Bored possibly? Disinterested


The game-playing started off rather harmless and I guess over the years it's started to become a tad harsh. I can't pinpoint exactly where it all went wrong. In the end I AM tired of hurting her.


----------



## Trenton

RandomDude said:


> The game-playing started off rather harmless and I guess over the years it's started to become a tad harsh. I can't pinpoint exactly where it all went wrong. In the end I AM tired of hurting her.


So then why do you continue to hurt her?


----------



## RandomDude

Because I wear this shirt:









And the missus wears this one:


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> What you're really saying is if you got to the point where we have to tell you to Man Up things are really bad and you are being disrespected, your needs are not being counted and your relationship sucks so be ready to say you're going to walk and mean it. In the meantime, work on yourself...become more individualized and less dependent on what's left of your pathetic relationship.


Now see, that just won't fit on a bumper sticker or t-shirt.

I like your honesty, despite not always agreeing with it.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> You're kind of an honorary penis wielder ... but no ... it's a cheesy sci-fi series that has been on for oh ... I don't know, nearly 30 years or more.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're a guy or girl, that consistently gets dumped, disrespected, and cheated on, and you DON'T think some personal changes are in order to better navigate relationships ... then you're a fool in my book. And I see those changes as being for personal gain, but I do not frame them in a negative context.


Not sure what honorary penis wielder means. Weird.

Yes, if you are a person that gets dumped and crapped on then instead of trying to change the partner, change your self. That is what I think Trenton was pointing out. Instead of playing head games with others, change your outlook on life. If you are constantly getting dumped, you are the common denominator, right? Well, change yourself and stop trying to "game" others.
The whole manipulation thing smacks of desperation to me.


----------



## RandomDude

Manipulation in our marriage is routine :rofl:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

RandomDude said:


> Manipulation in our marriage is routine :rofl:


Of course it does. Your relationship started as an affair. A house built on sand is unstable and yes, you love that despite your drunken rants that you don't. 
I often wonder in your posts if you ever think about the woman you cheated on. Do you wonder what life would have been like with her? How is she doing?


----------



## RandomDude

I only married once, and I've always been a loyal husband, though I've never really been a loyal boyfriend.

Only thing I regret is cheating on my wife before we got married, not my ex. My ex simply can't hold a candle to my wife. I have wondered though yes, what it would have been like if I stayed with my ex and not my wife... it's not pretty.


----------



## Halien

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Yes, if you are a person that gets dumped and crapped on then instead of trying to change the partner, change your self. That is what I think Trenton was pointing out. Instead of playing head games with others, change your outlook on life. If you are constantly getting dumped, you are the common denominator, right? Well, change yourself and stop trying to "game" others.
> The whole manipulation thing smacks of desperation to me.


Honestly though, ever think about how hard it would be to frame the words to help a guy in this situation, other than the lingo used in manning up? Some of the manning up is talking about the actions a man would take to be more true to himself, but while I agree with what Trenton is saying, it is really hard to frame it in a way that would help a guy.

I'll offer my own definition: "Know what you stand for. Decide what's right and what's wrong to you. Decide who is really important to you, and ask yourself if you treat them like they are. Now, be passionate about doing it in every situation with your relationship, as if this were the most important time in your marriage. Accept nothing less."

Is it close?


----------



## that_girl

Whew. I'm tired now.


----------



## Deejo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Not sure what honorary penis wielder means. Weird.


You're a regular in the clubhouse. Nothing weird or sinister.



Therealbrighteyes said:


> Yes, if you are a person that gets dumped and crapped on then instead of trying to change the partner, change your self. That is what I think Trenton was pointing out. Instead of playing head games with others, change your outlook on life. If you are constantly getting dumped, you are the common denominator, right? Well, change yourself and stop trying to "game" others.
> The whole manipulation thing smacks of desperation to me.


And you don't think part of 'changing yourself' encompasses modifying how you interact with or respond to others?

Still can't shake the notion that there is an ocean between what I'm talking about ... and what you think I'm talking about. But ... I can live with that. 

Gave it a shot ... again.


----------



## heartsbeating

Deejo said:


> You're kind of an honorary penis wielder ... but no ... i*t's a cheesy sci-fi series* that has been on for oh ... I don't know, nearly 30 years or more.


Oye! Careful with how you refer to Dr Who there bub  

When we meet someone, whether we mean to or not, it's often the case that we sum them up to an extent of who/what they represent based on the information they give us and based around our own experiences. If I went on a date with the Dr Who guy, well I'd be making some assumptions on that preference alone. I'd start seeking more information, does he read comic books, is he into art, maybe he'd extend out from Dr Who to have an interest in Quantum Physics? In summary, I'd probably think he could be quite interesting. I'd also be thinking that he's not only cool enough to score a date with a hot woman such as myself (heh) but to also admit that he watches Dr Who, I'd view him as being self-assured. Like I said before though, obviously social skills and other factors do need to be considered. As for whether this guy shouldn't have talked about Dr Who on that date with her so that he could increase his chance of another date, why would he want to? 

This actually reminded me of when my single girlfriend and I went for a meal. She'd arranged for her single guy-friend to join us a bit later. It was the first time I'd met him, it wasn't a date for me as I'm married but somehow he and I were talking geek and we ended up quizzing each other "Name the best Batman movie" etc and debating/making fun of each others responses. We were all having fun with it. Even though she'd known him a while, she told me afterwards that she had no idea that he was into all of these different things. This increased her attraction towards him. And I gave him the thumbs-up. 


I'm not Buddhist but I like to consider this way of thinking and I feel it relates to aspects of this thread.

_Life is comparable to a river. It is a progressive moment, a successive series of different moments, joining together to give the impression of one continuous flow. It moves from cause to cause, effect to effect, one point to another, one state of existence to another, giving an outward impression that it is one continuous and unified movement, where as in reality it is not. The river of yesterday is not the same as the river of today. The river of this moment is not going to be the same as the river of the next moment. So does life. It changes continuously, becomes something or the other from moment to moment.

Take for example the life of an individual. It is a fallacy to believe that a person would remain the same person during his entire life time. He changes every moment. He actually lives and dies but for a moment, or lives and dies moment by moment, as each moment leads to the next. A person is what he is in the context of the time in which he exists. It is an illusion to believe that the person you have seen just now is the same as the person you are just now seeing or the person whom you are seeing now will be the same as the person you will see after a few moments. Impermanence and change are thus the undeniable truths of our existence. - from urbandharma.org_


----------



## Halien

Deej,

Originally, I stayed away from posting my real feelings on this thread because my feelings are pretty strong and reflect some painful memories of the past. But I would like to add a little if it might help.

There are some areas of my life where, frankly, I really suck at social coercion. Wierdly, because of my dad's obsession with what he called 'controlling the outcomes', I've also been accused of making people want to do something that they didn't want to do before. Because my dad wrecked so many marriages with his games, I guess I really became staunchly opposed to these 'games', but tried to focus on avoiding nervous deflection and timid avoidances in conversations. But I can spot games a mile off, although I think there is nothing wrong with leveraging the positives of your personality in social situations, if the intent involves mutual respect.

For me, the key is to be true to yourself. Be upfront with yourself what your intent is with another woman in a date, or even our day to day interractions. To me, it crosses over into manipulation if it is something that you would be ashamed of if she suddenly had access to a summarized, concise version of your intent. How about making the goal of the date to get to know her, draw her out and engage her into a great experience? Because people are almost always nervous on a first date, I think it takes some honing of our own social skills to accomplish this.

Its been demonstrated that almost all women use a pretty well defined set of language qualifiers in communication. There are plenty of links out there to the work of people like Robin Lakoff in gender language studies. I studied this mostly because I'm a writer. It comes down to using the verbal and body language cues to respect a woman's boundaries, but also tell if she is engaged.

Really, that is all background stuff. You either get it or you don't, and its not something to spend time thinking about in soical situations. I always figured that if I could share one or two things that I was really passionate about, or introduce a little of who I am, and learn something of her, and then it didn't go any further, then I was saving both of us a world of hurtin' down the road.

I still have a hat on my shelf above my desk at work that looks like Bear Bryant's hat. When I was a supervisor, trying to get the team motivated to work a new stretch of overtime, I put on my 'used car salesman' hat. By being blatantly obvious about what was going on, I was able to sleep at night, despite the fact that over half the team worked seven days a week for nearly a year. Funny, fifteen years later, they still email me every week or so, even though they always told me that they were being manipulated.


----------



## AFEH

There’s a book called Games People Play Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships: Amazon.co.uk: Eric Berne: Books. I read it a few years back.

Games are simply a means to an end, ways of getting what we want. And as there is healthy and unhealthy selfishness, there are also healthy and unhealthy games. Some of the latter would be the “You Don’t Know It’s Me Hurting You” game played by the passive aggressive, the 'See What You Made Me Do' played by the disloyal spouse (and many others) and 'I'm Only Trying To Help You' game played by the Codependent. There was talk earlier in a thread of the “I’m Demonising You” game (again played by the DS and others) and then there’s the “I’m an Alcoholic” game.

Most unhealthy games are studied because the people playing them are somewhat mentally challenged and are in the hands of psychologists who study the games they are playing. To study and learn from healthy game players we generally need to read biographies.

We can observe quite a few different “games” on TAM. There’s the “I’m a Nice Guy” game, the “I’m a Feminist”, “I’m a Bad Guy” games. There are all sorts of games being played out on TAM.

Examples of healthy games are the “I’m Feeding and Sheltering my Family” game, “I’m Building a Sustainable Business” game. I think the biggest game we should know about is our Life Game. What is it we want to do with our Life? Sometimes in our life, that’s glaringly obvious and a no brainer, at other times when we don’t have a “calling” we really have to think about it or else we just wonder aimlessly through life.


----------



## AFEH

I think if we want to modify our behaviour then we’re best to first look to see and understand what it is that’s driving it.

Our psyche contains our deepest thoughts, feelings, values, beliefs and rules. It’s our rules that constitute our behaviour and our rules are there to protect our values. Our rules are like our habits and as such can be subconscious behaviour.

So if we change a value, our rules change and changed behaviour follows.

For example from the age of 18 to 60 I valued my wife being in my life and I made the rule “Till death us do part” when I saw her for the very first time. Some 4 years later I made a vow in Church “Till death us Do Part”. That value and it’s rule enhanced by a Vow in Church was held deep in my psyche for over 40 years. Then something happened that made me question that value and I discovered it was no longer doing me good, in fact it was harming me. So I did away with the value and the rules protecting it changed followed by a massive change in my behaviour towards my stbxw.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> And you don't think part of 'changing yourself' encompasses modifying how you interact with or respond to others?


Changing yourself is great! What is often tossed around these here parts is to lower this, up that, pull away, come on strong and all of it is designed to manipulate the woman in some way. It IS a game and many here are playing it. I don't see alot of internal reflection. Isn't the best solution to look within and make the changes instead of trying to change your partner?


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> There’s a book called Games People Play Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships: Amazon.co.uk: Eric Berne: Books. I read it a few years back.
> 
> Games are simply a means to an end, ways of getting what we want. And as there is healthy and unhealthy selfishness, there are also healthy and unhealthy games. Some of the latter would be the “You Don’t Know It’s Me Hurting You” game played by the passive aggressive, the 'See What You Made Me Do' played by the disloyal spouse (and many others) and 'I'm Only Trying To Help You' game played by the Codependent. There was talk earlier in a thread of the “I’m Demonising You” game (again played by the DS and others) and then there’s the “I’m an Alcoholic” game.
> 
> Most unhealthy games are studied because the people playing them are somewhat mentally challenged and are in the hands of psychologists who study the games they are playing. To study and learn from healthy game players we generally need to read biographies.
> 
> We can observe quite a few different “games” on TAM. There’s the “I’m a Nice Guy” game, the “I’m a Feminist”, “I’m a Bad Guy” games. There are all sorts of games being played out on TAM.
> 
> Examples of healthy games are the “I’m Feeding and Sheltering my Family” game, “I’m Building a Sustainable Business” game. I think the biggest game we should know about is our Life Game. What is it we want to do with our Life? Sometimes in our life, that’s glaringly obvious and a no brainer, at other times when we don’t have a “calling” we really have to think about it or else we just wonder aimlessly through life.


*Just to clarify* - not all Nice Guys and Bad Boys and Feminists are simply playing games - *correct?*

If *I* befriend someone at work that I find attractive, who is going through a divorce, then I'm likely playing a "Nice Guy" game. 

If *I* go buy a motorcycle and a big jacket and pull up to the local bar with the muffler all messed up and loud as can be - I personally would be just playing the "Bad Boy" game.

If someone I work with and know well - attractive or not - is going through a divorce, and I lend a sympathetic ear - that's not a game.

And someone who really loves the sound of a loud chopper and the feel of a leather jacket isn't simply trying to impress the chicks. They may appear "bad" - but that's just a byproduct of who they are.

*Agree???*


----------



## Trenton

Yes, NG, I agree. The difference between the man buying flowers who is doing so because he likes to see his wife happy and the husband buying flowers because he hopes it will get him laid is that one's action is based upon his feelings for the wife and the other is based upon his feelings for himself.

Now if we say to ourselves, but the wife wins too because what she wants is flowers, then we're misunderstanding what the wife wants. The wife actually wants the husband to care about her and the flowers represent this.

If you want a relationship built on mutual love and admiration then both have to be honest, first with themselves, and then with the person they're with. When the relationship is off kilter that's when boundaries come into play.


----------



## Halien

nice777guy said:


> *Just to clarify* - not all Nice Guys and Bad Boys and Feminists are simply playing games - *correct?*
> 
> If *I* befriend someone at work that I find attractive, who is going through a divorce, then I'm likely playing a "Nice Guy" game.
> 
> If *I* go buy a motorcycle and a big jacket and pull up to the local bar with the muffler all messed up and loud as can be - I personally would be just playing the "Bad Boy" game.
> 
> If someone I work with and know well - attractive or not - is going through a divorce, and I lend a sympathetic ear - that's not a game.
> 
> And someone who really loves the sound of a loud chopper and the feel of a leather jacket isn't simply trying to impress the chicks. They may appear "bad" - but that's just a byproduct of who they are.
> 
> *Agree???*


AFEH might disagree, but since I think he brought up a very good point, I'll chime in too.

We all project, and we all have a reason for every single interaction with others. So, at some level, we are aligning our behavior to support that end. Some people think that any presence of behavioral alignment is gaming, in the strictest sense. Some say it is only gaming if it involves manipulation. But what is manipulation? If your son or daughter needs to go to school tomorrow, but they don't want to go to school tomorrow, you can't very well put a leash on them and drag them. You build a story. A reason. Something to compel them to go to school. And if you want them to really get something out of it, you build a great story to instill motivation for being there. Since you are compelling them to do something that they didn't want to do, whose to say its not manipulation?

So, I say that we all participate in gaming to some degree. To varying degrees, being a Nice Guy can be gaming even to a Nice guy if it's goal is preventing headaches in the day-to-day relationship by conceding your own sense of self-worth. You are projecting the peacemaker front, and choosing not to show the wounded pride within (but not you personally, NiceGuy). That's why you have to decide your boundaries.


----------



## that_girl

Just be the best "you" you can be. If you try to be someone you're not, it shows.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Yes, NG, I agree. The difference between the man buying flowers who is doing so because he likes to see his wife happy and the husband buying flowers because he hopes it will get him laid is that one's action is based upon his feelings for the wife and the other is based upon his feelings for himself.
> 
> Now if we say to ourselves, but the wife wins too because what she wants is flowers, then we're misunderstanding what the wife wants. The wife actually wants the husband to care about her and the flowers represent this.
> 
> If you want a relationship built on mutual love and admiration then both have to be honest, first with themselves, and then with the person they're with. When the relationship is off kilter that's when boundaries come into play.


Word.


----------



## nice777guy

Halien said:


> *AFEH might disagree*


Yeah - he might!


----------



## Halien

Trenton said:


> Yes, NG, I agree. The difference between the man buying flowers who is doing so because he likes to see his wife happy and the husband buying flowers because he hopes it will get him laid is that one's action is based upon his feelings for the wife and the other is based upon his feelings for himself.


Yes, but don't assume that the guy who buys flowers because of no other reason than wanting to see her smile, will automatically be granted a mutually fulfilling relationship. I'd give everything I have if it did. It would be great if it happened in some way that would fit into a correlation, but the sad truth is that it often doesn't. Maybe that guy is married to someone who views expressions of love as expected for baseline happiness. Maybe he doesn't have the romantic imagination that the woman craves, and his attempts come off as pathetic when compared to the fantasies she had as a child. All of these 'maybes' add up to either (1) her pulling away, or (2) realizing that she needs to shape up and help with the problem. I don't think we'd hear about the latter ones here, because their problem is fixed, and they don't need this site.

If it doesn't appear to be received with the same intention as given, that guy will usually try harder. Some will remember who she said that he 'never vacuumed', so he starts vacuuming. All the while, the nice guy is grieving inside. Since he's a guy, he assumes that showing his love somehow rotates around a formula for success, and it isn't working. So, the game begins. Not the one he learns here - I'm talking about the one before. Project happiness. Hide hurt. Beg and bargaining. Be what he thinks she wants. Its wierd, but society teaches men that marriages are always screwed up by men, so to the nice guy, it never occurs that she also has fundamental problems.

Again, I'll say that for me, manning up is all about deciding who I am, and what I expect. No formulas. Trying to be real.


----------



## nice777guy

Another way that I've been thinking about this is in terms of personality types and careers...

I'm an introvert by nature. I like math. I would have been a great actuary - but that sounded too boring. So - I became an Accountant (which probably still sounds boring to most of you!). Contrary to old stereotypes, there is a lot of interaction with other people on this job. Plenty of times when I'm in a meeting I will need to be loud, firm and assertive in order to make an important point.

So - even though I lean towards working alone, or sitting quietly and listening to others - I've had to learn to adapt my personality to a career that I truly enjoy.

Me v. an extrovert - if I am going to a meeting where I know I will need to speak up about something important, I do a lot of imaging and "rehearsing" in my head. Moreso than the average "people person" would do. Gets me comfortable.

So - going back to Dr. Who boy. If he is looking for his soulmate - he should be who he is - knowing that he may have to wait a long damn time before ever getting laid. My career suits me most of the time - I still have plenty of time to process things and analyze - the things I really enjoy doing.

If he wants to get laid - well - he needs to learn to adapt his behavior to get what he needs. Like me in a meeting - he can't sit there - quietly - hoping someone else will say what needs to be said and everything works out on its own. He has to be prepared to step out of his comfort zone - just enough - to get what he wants.

I don't know if its a game - or manipulation - but we all modify our behaviors to things we want or need.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> *Just to clarify* - not all Nice Guys and Bad Boys and Feminists are simply playing games - *correct?*
> 
> If *I* befriend someone at work that I find attractive, who is going through a divorce, then I'm likely playing a "Nice Guy" game.
> 
> If *I* go buy a motorcycle and a big jacket and pull up to the local bar with the muffler all messed up and loud as can be - I personally would be just playing the "Bad Boy" game.
> 
> If someone I work with and know well - attractive or not - is going through a divorce, and I lend a sympathetic ear - that's not a game.
> 
> And someone who really loves the sound of a loud chopper and the feel of a leather jacket isn't simply trying to impress the chicks. They may appear "bad" - but that's just a byproduct of who they are.
> 
> *Agree???*


You are just assuming all games are bad. When that simply is not the case at all. Think on Bill Gates donating $27 billion to good causes. Now that’s a very fine, grand Game of Philanthropy.

You are also assuming all games are played consciously. Well they’re not. Many of the games people play are played totally subconsciously, habitually without even thinking about them.

I think you are prejudiced against the word “Game”. So much so that you are blind to any beneficial concepts represented by the word. But you just can’t get past your prejudice. Now is that you are consciously playing the “Prejudice Game” against the word “Game” or are you playing the “Prejudice Game” subconsciously?


----------



## AFEH

Halien said:


> AFEH might disagree, but since I think he brought up a very good point, I'll chime in too.
> 
> We all project, and we all have a reason for every single interaction with others. So, at some level, we are aligning our behavior to support that end. Some people think that any presence of behavioral alignment is gaming, in the strictest sense. Some say it is only gaming if it involves manipulation. But what is manipulation? If your son or daughter needs to go to school tomorrow, but they don't want to go to school tomorrow, you can't very well put a leash on them and drag them. You build a story. A reason. Something to compel them to go to school. And if you want them to really get something out of it, you build a great story to instill motivation for being there. Since you are compelling them to do something that they didn't want to do, whose to say its not manipulation?
> 
> So, I say that we all participate in gaming to some degree. To varying degrees, being a Nice Guy can be gaming even to a Nice guy if it's goal is preventing headaches in the day-to-day relationship by conceding your own sense of self-worth. You are projecting the peacemaker front, and choosing not to show the wounded pride within (but not you personally, NiceGuy). That's why you have to decide your boundaries.


Again the word “manipulation” has a bad rep. and there are people who are strongly prejudiced against it. But just like selfishness and games there is healthy and unhealthy manipulation.

To discover what is healthy and unhealthy in these things we need to look to a) the person’s motivations and b) the results of their behaviour (their overall game). Just “decrying” these things is for me at least an unhealthy prejudice which just results in a narrow-mindedness.


----------



## Deejo

Halien said:


> Deej,
> 
> Originally, I stayed away from posting my real feelings on this thread because my feelings are pretty strong and reflect some painful memories of the past.


You have alluded to issues with your dad in this regard previously.

I appreciate you taking the time to frame your feelings, because it appears that you also succeeded in framing mine, without any of the volatility attached.

The 'words' still strike me as the issue in how the actions are interpreted. I don't think anyone that knows me would describe me as a 'player', selfish, or dishonest.

I do have a personal code. Part of that code, particularly regarding women and dating is 'Do no harm.'


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> You are just assuming all games are bad. When that simply is not the case at all. Think on Bill Gates donating $27 billion to good causes. Now that’s a very fine, grand Game of Philanthropy.
> 
> You are also assuming all games are played consciously. Well they’re not. Many of the games people play are played totally subconsciously, habitually without even thinking about them.
> 
> I think you are prejudiced against the word “Game”. So much so that you are blind to any beneficial concepts represented by the word. But you just can’t get past your prejudice. Now is that you are consciously playing the “Prejudice Game” against the word “Game” or are you playing the “Prejudice Game” subconsciously?


Bob - you had me at "hello."

Not assuming all games are "bad."

I think I may be "understimating" the subconscious.

And yes - the word "Game" - as someone pointed out ealier - denotes there will be winners and losers. So there is some negative association there.

Was thinking earlier of the "Philanthropy Game" myself. The old question of when we do good for others, is it really for them or for us? I don't have a firm opinion on that one - but I "get" the question.

Just thinking out loud really...


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> I don't know if its a game - or manipulation - but we all modify our behaviors to things we want or need.


A lovely, brief summary of what I have internalized. And I don't tie ANY of the negativity posited by others as part of what I practice.

Bob, I really need to pick up that book you mentioned. I think we have discussed it previously and it sounds fascinating.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> Bob - you had me at "hello."
> 
> Not assuming all games are "bad."
> 
> I think I may be "understimating" the subconscious.
> 
> And yes - the word "Game" - as someone pointed out ealier - denotes there will be winners and losers. So there is some negative association there.
> 
> Was thinking earlier of the "Philanthropy Game" myself. The old question of when we do good for others, is it really for them or for us? I don't have a firm opinion on that one - but I "get" the question.
> 
> Just thinking out loud really...


I think you hit the nail on the head with why I don't like the term game used in relationships and that is the winning/losing aspect. I don't think in a healthy relationship there are winners and losers....or players for that matter.


----------



## nice777guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head with why I don't like the term game used in relationships and that is the winning/losing aspect. I don't think in a healthy relationship there are winners and losers....or players for that matter.


In a healthy relationship - both partners benefit. 

2 + 2 = 5

Too bad there aren't more healthy relationships...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> In a healthy relationship - both partners benefit.
> 
> 2 + 2 = 5


I thought 2 + 2 = Jello.


----------



## nice777guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I thought 2 + 2 = Jello.


?

I guess if you get married - hoping for Jello - sure - why not?

Wishing you all the Jello in the world!!!

:scratchhead:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> ?
> 
> I guess if you get married - hoping for Jello - sure - why not?
> 
> Wishing you all the Jello in the world!!!
> 
> :scratchhead:


It's a Chris Rock reference. Nevermind young grasshopper.


----------



## Halien

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head with why I don't like the term game used in relationships and that is the winning/losing aspect. I don't think in a healthy relationship there are winners and losers....or players for that matter.


:iagree::iagree:

I wonder sometimes if this mentality comes more natural to men, or not. Early in the marriage, it suddenly hit me one day that if an argument didn't accomplish anything (if it was trivial), then why did it matter if I won or not? the problem was that 'we' as a couple were losing. You can't imagine what a relief it was to let that go, and only try to focus on the differences of opinions that mattered.


----------



## AFEH

Deejo said:


> A lovely, brief summary of what I have internalized. And I don't tie ANY of the negativity posited by others as part of what I practice.
> 
> Bob, I really need to pick up that book you mentioned. I think we have discussed it previously and it sounds fascinating.


It’s basically transactional analysis, being aware of the dynamics in the relationship. I do A, I get B in return. We all do it, just that some are aware of their “games” and some are not. And some even stay unaware until the end of their days. Of course in a relationship the only outcome to strive for in any game is Win/Win but we can see on TAM that many play games where that is most definitely not the case, the game of the Adulterer for example. And of course in games like golf and tennis there will be a winner and so there will be losers. But that is far and away from what is being spoken about here, I thought that so obvious it didn’t need stating, obviously it does for some.

If people in relationships didn’t need to change their game at some point or another in order to improve the relationship or maybe even save it, then there wouldn’t be any need for MCs, ICs, life coaches and all the rest.


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> It’s basically transactional analysis, being aware of the dynamics in the relationship. I do A, I get B in return. We all do it, just that some are aware of their “games” and some are not. And some even stay unaware until the end of their days. Of course in a relationship the only outcome to strive for in any game is Win/Win but we can see on TAM that many play games where that is most definitely not the case, the game of the Adulterer for example. And of course in games like golf and tennis there will be a winner and so there will be losers. But that is far and away from what is being spoken about here, I thought that so obvious it didn’t need stating, obviously it does for some.
> 
> If people in relationships didn’t need to change their game at some point or another in order to improve the relationship or maybe even save it, then there wouldn’t be any need for MCs, ICs, life coaches and all the rest.


Bob - even though I'm sure to get scolded - I'd like to ask - is EVERYTHING then a game? Being sincere here...


----------



## Halien

nice777guy said:


> Bob - even though I'm sure to get scolded - I'd like to ask - is EVERYTHING then a game? Being sincere here...


"Life is but a stage, and we are merely actors" You know, we attribute this to Shakespeare, but I think he heard a sociopath saying it just before he mugged him and stole his manuscript.

I still remember the headslap I got from my grandmother when a shaman was telling the boys and girls that this spiritual plane where we live was often little more than games being played out by the spirits - I was like, "hey, shakespeare said that too!"

But my own answer to the question is: it depends. If you consider any kind of projecting to be gaming, then virtually every encounter is gaming. Only stark raving lunatics say everything that comes to their mind. But if you look at motives as your definition, then manipulation is where you draw the line.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Halien said:


> "Life is but a stage, and we are merely actors" You know, we attribute this to Shakespeare, but I think he heard a sociopath saying it just before he mugged him and stole his manuscript.
> 
> I still remember the headslap I got from my grandmother when a shaman was telling the boys and girls that this spiritual plane where we live was often little more than games being played out by the spirits - I was like, "hey, shakespeare said that too!"
> 
> But my own answer to the question is: it depends. If you consider any kind of projecting to be gaming, then virtually every encounter is gaming. Only stark raving lunatics say everything that comes to their mind. But if you look at motives as your definition, then manipulation is where you draw the line.


So we are all just chess pieces?


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Bob - even though I'm sure to get scolded - I'd like to ask - is EVERYTHING then a game? Being sincere here...


In that it's one way of looking at our life and how we interact with others, yes. We all have a mixture of good and bad games in us. Some games we excel at, have a great deal of competence in, others we’re maybe really crap at. Guess where the most rewards come from when working on ourselves? What about if we want to change our career? Then things become a whole new ball game. As it does when going from married to not married.


----------



## nice777guy

This may have just gotten too deep for me. The thought in my head right now is that everything everyone does is completely self-serving...even helping others...

Halien - love the story about the Shaman!!!


----------



## Halien

Therealbrighteyes said:


> So we are all just chess pieces?


No, that's too hard. Too boring. I like something more insidious, yet entertaining. Familiar with "Horton Hears a Who"? Even at six, that story gave me nightmares. Holy cow? Don't ever, ever let an eight year old check out 'Horton Hears a Who' and a paraphrased version of 'Immanual Kant's Copernican Revolution, Mind Making Nature' at the same time. He will never be the same again.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Halien said:


> No, that's too hard. Too boring. I like something more insidious, yet entertaining. Familiar with "Horton Hears a Who"? Even at six, that story gave me nightmares. Holy cow? Don't ever, ever let an eight year old check out 'Horton Hears a Who' and a paraphrased version of 'Immanual Kant's Copernican Revolution, Mind Making Nature' at the same time. He will never be the same again.


So Twister then? We all bend and contort to achieve a goal all while attempting to manipulate the other?


----------



## Deejo

Think of it more like tag, or tic-tac-toe.


----------



## Halien

Therealbrighteyes said:


> So Twister then? We all bend and contort to achieve a goal all while attempting to manipulate the other?


Oh boy!! can't give away that man secret. 90% of adult males who buy Twister do so because they want to check some woman out, right? Or at least 90% of the men in the He Man, Women's Caboose Watchers Club

... not that I'm a member, though... At least since they raised the annual dues.


----------



## nice777guy

Halien said:


> Oh boy!! can't give away that man secret. 90% of adult males who buy Twister do so because they want to check some woman out, right? Or at least 90% of the men in the He Man, Women's Caboose Watchers Club
> 
> ... not that I'm a member, though... At least since they raised the annual dues.


There's a conference next week. I only joined for the life insurance discounts!


----------



## Trenton

Halien said:


> "Life is but a stage, and we are merely actors" You know, we attribute this to Shakespeare, but I think he heard a sociopath saying it just before he mugged him and stole his manuscript.
> 
> I still remember the headslap I got from my grandmother when a shaman was telling the boys and girls that this spiritual plane where we live was often little more than games being played out by the spirits - I was like, "hey, shakespeare said that too!"
> 
> But my own answer to the question is: it depends. If you consider any kind of projecting to be gaming, then virtually every encounter is gaming. Only stark raving lunatics say everything that comes to their mind. But if you look at motives as your definition, then manipulation is where you draw the line.


I bite my tongue if I think what I'm thinking will directly hurt someone else. I will find a way to say it still but it won't be exactly what I'm thinking.

Everything is not a game. Everything is exactly what we collectively make of it.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Think of it more like tag, or tic-tac-toe.


Ring around the Rosy?


----------



## that_girl

I never feel manipulated unless I don't want to do something that someone deliberately tries to coerce me even though I have voiced my stance on the subject. That doesn't happen often. I am pretty stubborn about what I want and don't want to do (mostly at work). In my marriage, we just do what we do...I don't think I've ever felt manipulated.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Everything is not a game. Everything is exactly what we collectively make of it.


This. It isn't chess or tic-tack-toe or Twister. If we chose to make everything a game then our lives are just a role of dice, the turn of a dial or the flipping of an hour glass.


----------



## Halien

Trenton said:


> I bite my tongue if I think what I'm thinking will directly hurt someone else. I will find a way to say it still but it won't be exactly what I'm thinking.
> 
> Everything is not a game. Everything is exactly what we collectively make of it.


Well, Trenton, I was really not trying to suggest that life is this artificial suite of ploys used to influence others. Only that certain supportive methods exist, that can help grow a relationship, or hurt it. That's why I usually avoid these kinds of topics, because I don't explain them well. But I was really trying to get across is that if you look at broken relationships, selfish people, and the ways we can unintentionally make our partners feel guilty, or especially if we hurt our partner emotionally, you can usually find a selective use of words and actions that coerce or manipulate. Even in little ways.

The sad part is that many people are conditioned early to react a certain way, and they hurt the partner repeatedly without even knowing it. 

So much of the Love Language approach seriously comes from the heart. But, it usually does not come naturally if it is not your love language. In effect, it is changing your communication approach to better love your partner.

I study this because I'm interested, and a writer. But my marriage would never survive without understanding how I could adjust to my wife's bipolar phases and direct her to healthier thinking at times. I'd give anything if we had the type of marriage where we could both just trust that our good intentions will get us by. We love each other incredibly much, but you only have to look at the normal stats on suicide with people with spectrum bipolar disorder, and even how their behaviors raise the risk of suicide in their children, to know that one or two well placed words can make an incredible difference.


----------



## Halien

Therealbrighteyes said:


> This. It isn't chess or tic-tack-toe or Twister.


I agree. Live for a while with a wife, and later a son after they get out of the hospital on suicide watch, and it becomes an expression of love. It becomes a struggle to learn ways to put a smile on a face that never smiles.

C'mon, I was only tryng to look at it from both sides, not just the negative. Too many people allow marriages to crumble because of this whole negative gaming/manipulation thing, but I was only pointing out that we use some of the same tactics in a healthy way to adjust to a different Love Language.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Halien said:


> I agree. Live for a while with a wife, and later a son after they get out of the hospital on suicide watch, and it becomes an expression of love. It becomes a struggle to learn ways to put a smile on a face that never smiles.


Perhaps games work with some people. Either they enjoy drama or the uncertainty of it all but I think you are correct, "gaming" could have terrible consequences if done on the wrong person. That is why being your true self is the best way. In your situation, I can only imagine what head games would have done to your wife and son. 
I've said it before and I'll say it again, they broke the mold when they made you. You are just a gem and the rarest of them.


----------



## that_girl

The idea of drama in my life at this point makes me ill. Seriously.

I had enough drama for the 3 months my husband moved out. I'm good. That was just awful.


----------



## Trenton

Halien said:


> Well, Trenton, I was really not trying to suggest that life is this artificial suite of ploys used to influence others. Only that certain supportive methods exist, that can help grow a relationship, or hurt it. That's why I usually avoid these kinds of topics, because I don't explain them well. But I was really trying to get across is that if you look at broken relationships, selfish people, and the ways we can unintentionally make our partners feel guilty, or especially if we hurt our partner emotionally, you can usually find a selective use of words and actions that coerce or manipulate. Even in little ways.
> 
> The sad part is that many people are conditioned early to react a certain way, and they hurt the partner repeatedly without even knowing it.
> 
> So much of the Love Language approach seriously comes from the heart. But, it usually does not come naturally if it is not your love language. In effect, it is changing your communication approach to better love your partner.
> 
> I study this because I'm interested, and a writer. But my marriage would never survive without understanding how I could adjust to my wife's bipolar phases and direct her to healthier thinking at times. I'd give anything if we had the type of marriage where we could both just trust that our good intentions will get us by. We love each other incredibly much, but you only have to look at the normal stats on suicide with people with spectrum bipolar disorder, and even how their behaviors raise the risk of suicide in their children, to know that one or two well placed words can make an incredible difference.


Very complex thinking. I'm not attacking your belief system or study of human behavior or even your personal experience. We all have to make tough choices and have personal preferences.

I need honesty in my relationship. If you're honest you're not playing a game, you're being honest. 

I think we lie and play games because we're afraid of rejection. When I was younger that was all I knew. I hated myself.

I, personally (and I get this is a personal preference), would greatly prefer I be honest and be rejected to being dishonest and held on to. This doesn't mean what I think or feel doesn't change because it absolutely does but I'll be honest about that too.


----------



## Halien

Trenton said:


> Very complex thinking. I'm not attacking your belief system or study of human behavior or even your personal experience. We all have to make tough choices and have personal preferences.
> 
> I need honesty in my relationship. If you're honest you're not playing a game, you're being honest.
> 
> I think we lie and play games because we're afraid of rejection. When I was younger that was all I knew. I hated myself.
> 
> I, personally (and I get this is a personal preference), would greatly prefer I be honest and be rejected to being dishonest and held on to. This doesn't mean what I think or feel doesn't change because it absolutely does but I'll be honest about that too.


I really like the way you look at it, and I agree. Be honest with yourself. And honestly, I appreciate the feedback from you and Brighteyes. In my case, I realized that I really felt certain things, and my wife and son really needed to hear them, but I was hit or miss about doing it. So, its more like looking for opportunities to build a person up, and saying genuine things that practically transfer motivation to them. But you know, when you have to spend so much time thinking about the communication strategy for the day for another person, it gets hard. 

My dad was the consummate player. He thought the pursuit of a woman was like a trophy, yet the games destroyed our life and the lives of a few married women. I happened to be with him two times when he was confronted by the broken husbands, and I still find myself feeling responsible for paying back the hurt he caused, which lends itself to the way I forgot to ever ask myself what I wanted in my own marriage.


----------



## Deejo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Perhaps games work with some people. Either they enjoy drama or the uncertainty of it all but I think you are correct, "gaming" could have terrible consequences if done on the wrong person. That is why being your true self is the best way. In your situation, I can only imagine what head games would have done to your wife and son.
> I've said it before and I'll say it again, they broke the mold when they made you. You are just a gem and the rarest of them.


Ah ... so you do agree that regardless of what we call it, that modifying a behavior or a response can be a positive thing, to yield a net positive result. I knew we'd get there.


----------



## AFEH

I think just about the biggest game I ever changed wrt my marriage was my “Codependent’s Game”. I didn’t play it very often but I finally recognised it as an Unhealthy Game that wasn’t getting us anywhere. I replaced that Game with my new found “Personal Boundaries Game” which I’ve experienced as a Healthy Game, but essentially I’m still learning it as once or twice I’ve been too quick to put up a boundary. With practice I should get more proficient at this particular Game as I learn the Rules.

In it all though I’m essentially the same person inside, (same values, same beliefs) but it made the most dramatic change ever to my external behaviour, to my marriage and therefore to my life.


----------



## AFEH

Another game I changed was my Career Game. I moved into high tech. sales at the age of 35 after being in electronics/software engineering since the age of sixteen. I was obviously concerned about this new Business Game of mine as I had a lot of responsibility re family, mortgage etc. and I just couldn’t afford to fail. The two Core Rules I adopted for this new Game of mine were “Never blame another for failure”. This included my managers, peers, reports, clients, suppliers etc. The second rule was “Always Win/Win”. Those rules, good help and luck along the way helped me play a very successful Game.


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> Ah ... so you do agree that regardless of what we call it, that modifying a behavior or a response can be a positive thing, to yield a net positive result. I knew we'd get there.


So do dentists.


----------



## Deejo

Conrad said:


> So do dentists.


"This doesn't look too bad .... I don't think we need novacaine. Shouldn't hurt a bit."


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Trenton said:


> Very complex thinking. I'm not attacking your belief system or study of human behavior or even your personal experience. We all have to make tough choices and have personal preferences.
> 
> I need honesty in my relationship. If you're honest you're not playing a game, you're being honest.
> 
> I think we lie and play games because we're afraid of rejection. When I was younger that was all I knew. I hated myself.
> 
> I, personally (and I get this is a personal preference), would greatly prefer I be honest and be rejected to being dishonest and held on to. This doesn't mean what I think or feel doesn't change because it absolutely does but I'll be honest about that too.



And yet what does it mean to be honest? What if my way to show love is through service, but my wife's number one preference is through words? If I work to provide words of love, am I being dishonest? Am I playing a game? Or do I love my wife and want to show her in the way that works best for her to receive it? Or perhaps some of all three.


----------



## AFEH

Learning to express love in one of the love languages sure is a whole new ball game. There are new rules and maybe new values to apply. For example if the wife’s love language is Quality Time but the husband is a workaholic who’s hardly ever home then what is he to do? First off he has to go inside himself and change a few of his values and rules about his career and his marriage and for a workaholic that’s a seriously big challenge. It’s about getting his work/marriage balance correct. Once that’s done then he actually has to spend quality time with his wife and enjoy that quality time. Another big thing to do.

All the while it’s a massive change in his game of life and at first it will look put on and maybe even insincere, fake but at the very least the guy’s trying and his wife should help and encourage him along the way. And it will take time and it will take patience for him to become practiced at it and for his new game to look and to actually be authentic.


----------



## Trenton

Tall Average Guy said:


> And yet what does it mean to be honest? What if my way to show love is through service, but my wife's number one preference is through words? If I work to provide words of love, am I being dishonest? Am I playing a game? Or do I love my wife and want to show her in the way that works best for her to receive it? Or perhaps some of all three.


Do you feel that the words you are saying are an honest expression of your feelings or are you making them up to make your wife feel a certain way?

How is learning a new way to communicate how you feel so that your wife understands the depths of your feelings in any way a game or dishonest?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Trenton said:


> Do you feel that the words you are saying are an honest expression of your feelings or are you making them up to make your wife feel a certain way?
> 
> How is learning a new way to communicate how you feel so that your wife understands the depths of your feelings in any way a game or dishonest?


But it is not an honest expression of my personality. I prefer to show my love in a manner that she does not optimally receive. 

So I change my approach why? Certainly because I love my wife - that has not changed. Also because she will appreciate it more - I want her to understand my feelings for her. But also because of how it effects her and strengthens our marriage - makes her happier, more loving to me, and more intimate. So while it is an honest expression of my feelings, it is unclear to me that there is not a game component here as well.


----------



## deejov

Great post! 
Coming from a business background, then I guess I play "games" all the time, because I will re-word or re-strategize a concept to fit the audience. I adapt. The result is the same, (desired) but to one group I may teach software hands-on one at a time, the other may just get a detailed handout to follow along when they want. 

If my intent is the same, and the result is the same, I don't see it as a game. I see it as adapting. We do this children all the time. take it to their level so they can understand what is desired.

I think it shows a great sense of maturity that a person is willng and able to modify their love language to allow someone to better understand them. Hopefully it works both ways. There is great growth in being able to do so for both parties. 

As long as you are sticking to your morals and beliefs. If you are hiding those.. you are playing games.


----------



## that_girl

I play games with my kids....The "Clean your room now or I take your phone" game is always a crowd pleaser.


----------



## Deejo

Perhaps if I had framed the entire context as developing your 'Emotional Intelligence' rather than calling it game playing or behavior modification, I would have more successfully conveyed the concept of managing rather than _manipulating_.

This stuff is very straightforward for people with high EI or EQ.

And yes, I would argue that being aware of it can make all of the difference in the emotional transactions of business.

You can meet two sales people selling the exact same thing, one you can't get away from quick enough, and the other has you talking about everything but the product, and the next thing you know you are convinced that you NEED this, and you've signed a purchase order.





deejov said:


> Great post!
> Coming from a business background, then I guess I play "games" all the time, because I will re-word or re-strategize a concept to fit the audience. I adapt. The result is the same, (desired) but to one group I may teach software hands-on one at a time, the other may just get a detailed handout to follow along when they want.
> 
> If my intent is the same, and the result is the same, I don't see it as a game. I see it as adapting. We do this children all the time. take it to their level so they can understand what is desired.
> 
> I think it shows a great sense of maturity that a person is willng and able to modify their love language to allow someone to better understand them. Hopefully it works both ways. There is great growth in being able to do so for both parties.
> 
> As long as you are sticking to your morals and beliefs. If you are hiding those.. you are playing games.


----------



## Trenton

Tall Average Guy said:


> But it is not an honest expression of my personality. I prefer to show my love in a manner that she does not optimally receive.
> 
> So I change my approach why? Certainly because I love my wife - that has not changed. Also because she will appreciate it more - I want her to understand my feelings for her. But also because of how it effects her and strengthens our marriage - makes her happier, more loving to me, and more intimate. So while it is an honest expression of my feelings, it is unclear to me that there is not a game component here as well.


This is all good. What if that is what the nice guy does though and he doesn't get results? He "modifies" his behavior into what he thinks she wants. He still loves his wife but she's not engaged in the relationship so he starts trying to engage her by doing what he thinks she'll appreciate. 

Then he's back at square one in a relationship lacking passion and with a wife who takes him for granted.

Are the three D's really the answer? Distance, Dishonesty & Destabilization?

Nah.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Perhaps if I had framed the entire context as developing your 'Emotional Intelligence' rather than calling it game playing or behavior modification, I would have more successfully conveyed the concept of managing rather than _manipulating_.
> 
> This stuff is very straightforward for people with high EI or EQ.
> 
> And yes, I would argue that being aware of it can make all of the difference in the emotional transactions of business.
> 
> You can meet two sales people selling the exact same thing, one you can't get away from quick enough, and the other has you talking about everything but the product, and the next thing you know you are convinced that you NEED this, and you've signed a purchase order.


Sales people are the quintessential example of manipulation. They use their high EI and EQ to manipulate people to get them to do what they want. What a horrible use of their strengths in my opinion. Unless, of course, they truly believe in what it is they're selling.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Sales people are the quintessential example of manipulation. They use their high EI and EQ to manipulate people to get them to do what they want. What a horrible use of their strengths in my opinion. Unless, of course, they truly believe in what it is they're selling.


You were just manipulated ... again. Did you feel it?


----------



## deejov

Deejo said:


> You were just manipulated ... again. Did you feel it?


and dont we all do this in a relationship anyways? 
To a point, anyways. When it's someone you love, your intentions are probably more along the lines of getting them to grow or mature. Not selling them something they dont want. Your motivation isn't money, but happiness. And we all want our loved ones to be happy.


----------



## Deejo

deejov said:


> and dont we all do this in a relationship anyways?
> To a point, anyways. When it's someone you love, your intentions are probably more along the lines of getting them to grow or mature. Not selling them something they dont want. Your motivation isn't money, but happiness. And we all want our loved ones to be happy.


Careful ... people will think I'm double posting with a female persona.


----------



## deejov

I happen to have some deep beliefs in life... simply put that my purpose here on this planet as a human being is to learn, grow, mature, be a good person. The learning never ends. But my purpose here is NOT to acquire material things or step on people on my way up a corporate ladder. It's what I do to people that matters, not what I buy. 

So there is a struggle that goes on. I feel obligated sometimes to "help" people see that being a good person or growing should be a goal. When really... it's none of my business. If someone feels that material things complete their self esteem... that should be okay. 

But no matter how hard I try to surpress it... it comes out. It's like sitting there with a child doing a puzzle, and you are holding the last 3 pieces in your pockets. Watch them struggle, and keep your secret that you have the pieces they need to be successful. They cry and whine about being unhappy. 

Some line about leading a horse to water and you cannot make them drink comes to mind. 

And so does the thought that some people just get plain jealous that I can be happy with simple things, succeed immensely at any job that I do, and they are shocked to hear that I spend my vacation time in the mountains with nature instead of expensive world trips. 

It's like the whole world is in a fog, and those that found their way out to happiness are "selling" something that no one trusts. 

I mean no harm. I'm selling something you might like. Just try it. 
Free trial. Don't pay for 30 days.


----------



## AFEH

deejov said:


> I happen to have some deep beliefs in life... simply put that my purpose here on this planet as a human being is to learn, grow, mature, be a good person. The learning never ends. But my purpose here is NOT to acquire material things or step on people on my way up a corporate ladder. It's what I do to people that matters, not what I buy.
> 
> So there is a struggle that goes on. I feel obligated sometimes to "help" people see that being a good person or growing should be a goal. When really... it's none of my business. If someone feels that material things complete their self esteem... that should be okay.
> 
> But no matter how hard I try to surpress it... it comes out. It's like sitting there with a child doing a puzzle, and you are holding the last 3 pieces in your pockets. Watch them struggle, and keep your secret that you have the pieces they need to be successful. They cry and whine about being unhappy.
> 
> Some line about leading a horse to water and you cannot make them drink comes to mind.
> 
> And so does the thought that some people just get plain jealous that I can be happy with simple things, succeed immensely at any job that I do, and they are shocked to hear that I spend my vacation time in the mountains with nature instead of expensive world trips.
> 
> It's like the whole world is in a fog, and those that found their way out to happiness are "selling" something that no one trusts.
> 
> I mean no harm. I'm selling something you might like. Just try it.
> Free trial. Don't pay for 30 days.


You sound like an ENFP, the Inspirer Careers for ENFP Personality Types and Portrait of an ENFP. Need to watch that you don’t become a codependent and to hedge against that you need some pretty firm boundaries and know how to assert them in a kindly way.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> You were just manipulated ... again. Did you feel it?


There was nothing to feel. It's not really a game if only one person is playing. That's called playing with yourself, Deejo.


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> Careful ... people will think I'm double posting with a female persona.


A Hermaphrodite in our midst.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> There was nothing to feel. It's not really a game if only one person is playing. That's called playing with yourself, Deejo.


Not if I have spectators it isn't ... then it's something much weirder.

I just think you are misconstruing what I'm getting at into something far more sinister or disingenuous than it actually is.

You say you need emotional honesty in your relationship. I believe that we all do. BUT ... if we were emotionally honest and unfiltered all of the time, we wouldn't be in relationships for long. It simply doesn't work that way.

Halien just illustrated as much.


----------



## Halien

Trenton said:


> There was nothing to feel. It's not really a game if only one person is playing. That's called playing with yourself, Deejo.


Just keep telling yourself that, my friend, while my evil plan of world domination continues to progress [Insert fiendish laugh]

- The Halien Lance


----------



## Deejo

And Trenton, I truly do enjoy our discussions. I'm not trying to 'Win' and make you 'Lose'.


But ...

I am part of Halien's evil plan. I am a Minion


----------



## Halien

Deejo said:


> And Trenton, I truly do enjoy our discussions. I'm not trying to 'Win' and make you 'Lose'.
> 
> 
> But ...
> 
> I am part of Halien's evil plan. I am a Minion


Its a really devious plan. Grocery store checkout lines that feature DMV (department of motor vehicles) employees, commercial toilet paper, uncomfortable chairs... I told my mom, "Just because I live in your basement doesn't give you the right to disrespect my plan!"

I'm sorry, Trenton, but I can't hide the mental images that come with some posts. And when I hear of the web sites promising a winning formula for getting lucky, I especially agree.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Not if I have spectators it isn't ... then it's something much weirder.
> 
> I just think you are misconstruing what I'm getting at into something far more sinister or disingenuous than it actually is.
> 
> You say you need emotional honesty in your relationship. I believe that we all do. BUT ... if we were emotionally honest and unfiltered all of the time, we wouldn't be in relationships for long. It simply doesn't work that way.
> 
> Halien just illustrated as much.


Agreed on the weirder thing...

At this point I'm not even sure what we're talking about so no worries. 

I am genuine with my husband. It doesn't make me easy to live with. Will our relationship last forever and ever? I hope so although there have been points this past year where I thought maybe not (as you know) but (if he's being honest) he's never thought about it being over or wanted it to be over. I can't be so committed to someone and be dishonest. They'd be like anyone else to me then.

Is he honest with me all the time? NO! AHHHHHHHH. He's gotten much more so over time but I get that he's not all the time and it drives me insane. He's gotten better. Instead of it taking me two hours to get him to share, it might only take me a half hour. 

I actually asked him flat out tonight if he would agree that I was always telling him exactly how I feel honestly and he said...Seriously? Then he laughed. When I was asking him what he meant by that he said I was too honest, too emotional and easy to take advantage of by others.

Should I change? I don't think I can and maintain the closeness we have and I'm being honest there too. For me, having two people in my life (my bff and him) that I can share everything with, even when it might hurt them or me, makes them an extension of myself and very valuable to me.

I think I might be the opposite of a non feeling person which might be one of the reasons I've been told I'm BPD. Don't know. I feel everything. It's overwhelming. I have to have people around me who care enough to allow me to be me. Thankfully, I do.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> And Trenton, I truly do enjoy our discussions. I'm not trying to 'Win' and make you 'Lose'.
> 
> 
> But ...
> 
> I am part of Halien's evil plan. I am a Minion


Who can blame you with a copier that outputs such life like color?


----------



## MEM2020

TG,
I tend to think of manipulation as an underhanded way of getting the results you want. If your motives are clear and you desire a mutually positive outcome there is nothing wrong with doing stuff to provoke a specific reaction. Most people with good interpersonal skills can tell you what they want, why they want it and then they behave in a way consistent with that. 
As long as I don't trick someone or try to harm them, I am fine with my goal oriented behavior.

=that_girl;471148]I never feel manipulated unless I don't want to do something that someone deliberately tries to coerce me even though I have voiced my stance on the subject. That doesn't happen often. I am pretty stubborn about what I want and don't want to do (mostly at work). In my marriage, we just do what we do...I don't think I've ever felt manipulated.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## that_girl

MEM11363 said:


> TG,
> I tend to think of manipulation as an underhanded way of getting the results you want. If your motives are clear and you desire a mutually positive outcome there is nothing wrong with doing stuff to provoke a specific reaction. Most people with good interpersonal skills can tell you what they want, why they want it and then they behave in a way consistent with that.
> As long as I don't trick someone or try to harm them, I am fine with my goal oriented behavior.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. If I want something, I'll just say it. I won't play a game to get it. I am not that clever and the older I get, I simply don't have the energy. lol.


----------



## nice777guy

Halien said:


> I told my mom, "Just because I live in your basement doesn't give you the right to disrespect my plan!"


:lol:

:rofl:

This thread still makes me think we are all just terribly self-serving and always looking out for our own personal gain. Wish that I was actually kidding.

I think people are still stuck on the negative connotations that go along with the words "manipulation" and "games."

We're all just trying to get what we want out of life. Doesn't have to be a bad thing.


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> :lol:
> 
> 
> This thread still makes me think we are all just terribly self-serving and always looking out for our own personal gain.


Once again ... you sum it up succinctly. Been waiting a long time to use the word, 'succinctly'.

It needn't always be 'gain'. Even people who are considered Salt of the Earth types, volunteers, Peace Corp, or give of their money and time are doing so because THEY get something out of doing those things.

Selfish needn't be a four-letter-word. I simply chose to get good at it. And doing so has not made me a lesser person.


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> Even people who are considered Salt of the Earth types, volunteers, Peace Corp, or give of their money and time are doing so because THEY get something out of doing those things.


Yeah - was kind of thinking along these lines when I wrote that.

Still - not the most cheerful thought!

So what keeps up considerate of others?

My wife took her selfishness to a point that it began to hurt the people who had supported her. I still think that losing that support - or most of it - will hurt her in the long run.

So - do most of us who are married simply remain faithful because the personal benefits of a committed relationship outweigh the personal benefits of having an affair?


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Yeah - was kind of thinking along these lines when I wrote that.
> 
> Still - not the most cheerful thought!


Why is that?



nice777guy said:


> So what keeps up considerate of others?


Personal code of conduct. AKA, 'The Golden Rule'.
I treat people no differently. But ...
I absolutely interact with them differently. 



nice777guy said:


> My wife took her selfishness to a point that it began to hurt the people who had supported her. I still think that losing that support - or most of it - will hurt her in the long run.


It likely will. But people are resilient, she will likely just form a new circle of support, whether that's a good or a bad thing will depend upon who is looking at it.



nice777guy said:


> So - do most of us who are married simply remain faithful because the personal benefits of a committed relationship outweigh the personal benefits of having an affair?


Breaking the parts down to their essence? The answer is, Yes.
It's about opportunity cost and pain vs. pleasure. When the pain of a bad relationship overrides the perceived consequences and pain of an affair, that person is far more likely to choose to have an affair. This is also why the 'fog' or rationalization and history rewriting (interpreting the past as having been far worse than it was) is employed to increase the benefit ratio of the affair over the pain of the marriage or LTR.

I'm not making this stuff up. You don't need to look deep to find plenty of evidence of these principles as a foundation of what 'drives' us as people. 

Athol addresses your question in his book as well.

I don't think people are any less beautiful or complex ... but they are not as complex and more easily influenced than many would wish to believe.


----------



## I'mAllIn

nice777guy said:


> So - do most of us who are married simply remain faithful because the personal benefits of a committed relationship outweigh the personal benefits of having an affair?


I really don't think the answer to that question is the same for everyone who remains faithful, and I don't think the answer remains the same for a person throughout their entire marriage. Maybe at times the benefits of the marriage do outweigh the short-term benefits of an affair. At other times watched a friend or loved one go through infidelity might keep you thankful for what you have for a while. 
Then again maybe we just had enough bad sex before marriage to know that the fantasy in our head about an affair probably wouldn't be anything near reality and we'd screw up a pretty good thing for mediocre sex and an awkward exit :slap:


----------



## nice777guy

I'mAllIn said:


> Then again maybe we just had enough bad sex before marriage to know that the fantasy in our head about an affair probably wouldn't be anything near reality and we'd screw up a pretty good thing for mediocre sex and an awkward exit :slap:


Sorry - but I've never really had bad sex (with anyone other than my wife)!!! Lets just say my experiences outside of my 20+ year relationship have been SEVERLY limited!

New item to add to my bucket list - "Have bad unmarried sex."

:rofl:


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> Why is that?


I guess seeing everyone as completely self-serving doesn't have to be a bad thing. Just not a real happy thought.




> Personal code of conduct. AKA, 'The Golden Rule'.
> I treat people no differently. But ...
> I absolutely interact with them differently.


Will have to give that some thought. Care to expand? Give an example?



> she will likely just form a new circle of support, whether that's a good or a bad thing will depend upon who is looking at it.


She is doing that. But from what I can - from a distance - the circle isn't very stable - regardless of the quality of the company she's keeping. But hey - that's her problem.



> Breaking the parts down to their essence? The answer is, Yes.
> It's about opportunity cost and pain vs. pleasure. When the pain of a bad relationship overrides the perceived consequences and pain of an affair, that person is far more likely to choose to have an affair. This is also why the 'fog' or rationalization and history rewriting (interpreting the past as having been far worse than it was) is employed to increase the benefit ratio of the affair over the pain of the marriage or LTR.
> 
> I'm not making this stuff up. You don't need to look deep to find plenty of evidence of these principles as a foundation of what 'drives' us as people.
> 
> Athol addresses your question in his book as well.
> 
> I don't think people are any less beautiful or complex ... but they are not as complex and more easily influenced than many would wish to believe.


So - am I the ONLY person who hasn't read At's book? Another add to the bucket list I guess.

What you're saying makes total sense to me right now. Not questioning if you've made it up or done your research. Seems totally reasonable.


----------



## I'mAllIn

nice777guy said:


> Sorry - but I've never really had bad sex (with anyone other than my wife)!!! Lets just say my experiences outside of my 20+ year relationship have been SEVERLY limited!
> 
> New item to add to my bucket list - "Have bad unmarried sex."
> 
> :rofl:


 Consider yourself lucky! I usually avoid generalizing the sexes, but I do think that bad unmarried sex is more of a thing for women than men. 
This is terrible, but I sometimes think the best thing that ever happened for my marriage happened a year before I even met my H. I joined the Air Force right out of high school, and was stationed in CA for tech school. There was this super hot guy, we were friends, but he had a girlfriend back home so like idiot 19 year olds we pretend we weren't cheating just giving each other back rubs and massages and crap like that. Basically 8 months of building sexual tension and imagining how great he would be in bed. The night of his going away party he makes him move, we end up in his bed, and just as I'm getting into things he rolls off and says "wow, that was great!". Aaaaaaaaaaaaack! So now on the rare occasion I get it into my head that a man other than my husband is hot or think to myself that exciting new d!ck might be fun my sexually frustrated 19 year old self whispers in my ear that it's all hot in my head but that most likely new d!ck would be disappointing and I'd throw away pretty much guaranteed multiple Os with H. Doesn't take a genius to do that math.


----------



## nice777guy

I'mAllIn said:


> Consider yourself lucky! I usually avoid generalizing the sexes, but I do think that bad unmarried sex is more of a thing for women than men.
> This is terrible, but I sometimes think the best thing that ever happened for my marriage happened a year before I even met my H. I joined the Air Force right out of high school, and was stationed in CA for tech school. There was this super hot guy, we were friends, but he had a girlfriend back home so like idiot 19 year olds we pretend we weren't cheating just giving each other back rubs and massages and crap like that. Basically 8 months of building sexual tension and imagining how great he would be in bed. The night of his going away party he makes him move, we end up in his bed, and just as I'm getting into things he rolls off and says "wow, that was great!". Aaaaaaaaaaaaack! So now on the rare occasion I get it into my head that a man other than my husband is hot or think to myself that exciting new d!ck might be fun my sexually frustrated 19 year old self whispers in my ear that it's all hot in my head but that most likely new d!ck would be disappointing and I'd throw away pretty much guaranteed multiple Os with H. Doesn't take a genius to do that math.


See - so I HAVE to do this! Its for the benefit of all possible future relationships!!!

Yeah - "we'll just give each other back rubs"!!!

:lol:


----------



## Halien

nice777guy said:


> Sorry - but I've never really had bad sex (with anyone other than my wife)!!! Lets just say my experiences outside of my 20+ year relationship have been SEVERLY limited!
> 
> New item to add to my bucket list - "Have bad unmarried sex."
> 
> :rofl:


As long as you know going into it that for a man, bad sex usually involves the working end of a loaded gun, heartdropping admissions just a moment too late, finding unexpected sex organs when her ... or now his clothes come off, or the realization that the shiny blue packet in your wallet is really Alka Seltzer, then you're good to go.


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> Yeah - was kind of thinking along these lines when I wrote that.
> 
> Still - not the most cheerful thought!
> 
> So what keeps up considerate of others?
> 
> My wife took her selfishness to a point that it began to hurt the people who had supported her. I still think that losing that support - or most of it - will hurt her in the long run.
> 
> So - do most of us who are married simply remain faithful because the personal benefits of a committed relationship outweigh the personal benefits of having an affair?


I often thought this too and will hear myself say it as a way to excuse myself, but deep down, if I be 100% honest, I don't.

I think there are unselfish people who will do without expecting anything or getting anything in return. We can reason that they get the joy of doing it or are doing it because circumstances led them there--there is always a way to reason away unselfishness.

The truth (for me) is many don't strive for it and many make excuses for others who do. Disbelief often comes from an inability to understand rather than a basis for a fact.


----------



## Halien

nice777guy said:


> So - do most of us who are married simply remain faithful because the personal benefits of a committed relationship outweigh the personal benefits of having an affair?


I think that lots of men have a moral code. I want to believe this, because I want to believe that most of us just want to be able to look at ourselves in the mirror.

Sometimes, its really hard to admit certain things about ourselves, because it shows a side of us that we don't want people to know about. I've seen things in my younger years that most people never witness. I can't even tell my wife or kids, because they would never understand, and I don't want them to hate the people in my life. This doesn't make me different than most men, I don't think. It just puncuates the reasons for my beliefs, and makes them easier to describe. We all make decisions on what kind of person we will be. I just know exactly why I chose this path.

When my wife and I almost divorced, it was as if some cosmic series of events aligned to make it easy for me to have an affair. Most of her family is still convinced that I wanted a divorce because of another woman. My wife isn't completely convinced, despite my words and actions. A couple of our 'acquaintences' made it incredibly easy, if I had chosen to. Even my 'first love' from youth heard and inquired. It was just life, and not something that I somehow brought about.

I just know myself well enough to know that I would see it in my face every time I looked into the mirror. It would hurt my wife in a way that she might never recover, too, and I will never stop loving her, despite what happens to the marriage.

Maybe I'm naive, but it seems that if a single woman was looking for a husband, and one who would never hurt her like a past husband did, she could just listen to a guy speak and see if he ever incorporates words like integrity, respect, and 'doing the right thing' in his working vocabulary.


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> I often thought this too and will hear myself say it as a way to excuse myself, but deep down, if I be 100% honest, I don't.
> 
> I think there are unselfish people who will do without expecting anything or getting anything in return. We can reason that they get the joy of doing it or are doing it because circumstances led them there--there is always a way to reason away unselfishness.
> 
> The truth (for me) is many don't strive for it and many make excuses for others who do. Disbelief often comes from an inability to understand rather than a basis for a fact.


So - just to clarify - those that DON'T do good for others are making excuses for their inactivity by saying that people are only unselfish for their own personal reasons?

Good grief...confusing...

So - if I don't give to the United Way at work, I'll justify it by saying that others who DO give are only doing it to make themselves feel better - right?


----------



## Deejo

What's the first thing that comes to mind when I say the name, Al Capone?

Probably a gangster.

He opened a soup kitchen, and performed a series of other philanthropic gestures. Doesn't mean he was enlightened and had a gentle soul.


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> So - just to clarify - those that DON'T do good for others are making excuses for their inactivity by saying that people are only unselfish for their own personal reasons?
> 
> Good grief...confusing...
> 
> So - if I don't give to the United Way at work, I'll justify it by saying that others who DO give are only doing it to make themselves feel better - right?


Yes.

Although I'd say if the person was giving to the United Way unselfishly...you wouldn't know about it.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> What's the first thing that comes to mind when I say the name, Al Capone?
> 
> Probably a gangster.
> 
> He opened a soup kitchen, and performed a series of other philanthropic gestures. Doesn't mean he was enlightened and had a gentle soul.


You can't order the killing of someone from afar or upfront and have an enlightened and gentle soul.


----------



## nice777guy

Halien said:


> I think that lots of men have a moral code. I want to believe this, because I want to believe that most of us just want to be able to look at ourselves in the mirror.


I still remember as a young kid - about 13 or so - struggling a bit as a friend and his family started becoming very avid church-goers. My family did the Easter and Christmas thing - so when invited by my friend (and his Mom) I felt compelled to go along.

Even at that age, I had reasoned that not going to church was OK because I had a conscience. And truly - I was a very good kid with mediocre parents. I could have gotten away with murder - but never wanted to.

One of the first sermons, the preacher spoke about how people (Me!) reason away the words in the Bible and choose to follow their Conscience instead. Seemed like he was talking to me almost.

Sorry - but a long winded way of saying that to this day, I'm not really sure that my conscience or my internal moral compass are enough to keep me on the straight and narrow. Not so sure it works for a lot of other people either.

Just look around here...


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> I still remember as a young kid - about 13 or so - struggling a bit as a friend and his family started becoming very avid church-goers. My family did the Easter and Christmas thing - so when invited by my friend (and his Mom) I felt compelled to go along.
> 
> Even at that age, I have reasoned that not going to church was OK because I had a conscience. And truly - I was a very good kid with mediocre parents. I could have gotten away with murder - but never wanted to.
> 
> One of the first sermons, the preacher spoke about how people (Me!) reason away the words in the Bible and choose to follow their Conscience instead. Seemed like he was talking to me almost.
> 
> Sorry - but a long winded way of saying that to this day, I'm not really sure that my conscience or my internal moral compass are enough to keep me on the straight and narrow. Not so sure it works for a lot of other people either.
> 
> Just look around here...


Doing good or bad is a choice as is doing nothing. To me, doing nothing is as bad as doing bad. All choices have consequences. Forget taking a look around here...take a look around the world.


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> You can't order the killing of someone from afar or upfront and have an enlightened and gentle soul.


Is this a confession? Kinda thought Deejo was comparing you to Al Capone earlier.

Do we think Al Capone lived a fairly happy life? I'd say he did a lot more straightforward "Behavior Modification" than "Playing Games."

And I'm sure he was incredibly self-serving.

But was he happy?

Isn't that the ultimate prize? Not getting married, going on dates, saving your marriage - but just - being happy - right?


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> Is this a confession? Kinda thought Deejo was comparing you to Al Capone earlier.
> 
> Do we think Al Capone lived a fairly happy life? I'd say he did a lot more straightforward "Behavior Modification" than "Playing Games."
> 
> And I'm sure he was incredibly self-serving.
> 
> But was he happy?
> 
> Isn't that the ultimate prize? Not getting married, going on dates, saving your marriage - but just - being happy - right?


Deejo was comparing me to Al Capone? :rofl:

OK that is really funny!

I've not yet ordered the killing of anyone. Although if Deejo doesn't watch it, I just might.

Is being happy your ultimate goal? It's not mine.


----------



## Deejo

Halien said:


> Maybe I'm naive, but it seems that if a single woman was looking for a husband, and one who would never hurt her like a past husband did, she could just listen to a guy speak and see if he ever incorporates words like integrity, respect, and 'doing the right thing' in his working vocabulary.


I think that's the tough bit though ...

The men that do have and practice those qualities, seldom incorporate the actual words to describe themselves.

It does show through though. I have had 3 women say the words, 
"You are a good man." to me, 4 if I include my ex. Most notably, my ex said it to me AFTER our marriage was over.

I sincerely don't remember anyone saying that to me, prior to 3 years ago. And I do believe most of it has to do with my code of conduct, and the experiences of the other women.


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> Deejo was comparing me to Al Capone? :rofl:
> 
> OK that is really funny!
> 
> I've not yet ordered the killing of anyone. Although if Deejo doesn't watch it, I just might.
> 
> Is being happy your ultimate goal? It's not mine.


When my marriage was falling apart - it became a reasonable goal. Instead of "fix the marriage" - I finally concluded I really just wanted to be happy - hoping that happiness somehow included my wife. I guess she's still included - but she won't be my wife much longer. And - I'm happier now than I was 6 months ago.

I suppose my utlimate goal probably changes quite often. But right now - "Be Happy" - still sounds pretty reasonable. But it also encompasses a lot of other things. Hard to be happy if my kids are miserable. Hard to be happy if I'm having a terrible day at work. etc., etc.,

What's your ultimate goal T? And why do I feel like I just failed some kind of test...


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Deejo was comparing me to Al Capone? :rofl:
> 
> OK that is really funny!
> 
> I've not yet ordered the killing of anyone. Although if Deejo doesn't watch it, I just might.
> 
> Is being happy your ultimate goal? It's not mine.


Cripes ... no. 

I think quite highly of you.
Honestly? I think I would be enormously disappointed if you lost your emotional enthusiasm and optimism. It no doubt puts you at emotional risk at times ... yet you do it anyway. That's hard not to admire. 

It also means you have your own code of conduct ... or you're very dumb. I like to think it's the former.


----------



## Deejo

My goal is to fall in love again. Hopefully one more time. Would be nice. Crazy love. With the monkey sex kind of crazy love.

I'll be fine if it doesn't pan out that way. But I do remember what that kind of love looks and feels like. And I know it isn't something you can force ... play games to bring about ... or manipulate to make happen.

But then again ... they can't hurt either.

:FIREdevil:


----------



## Halien

nice777guy said:


> I still remember as a young kid - about 13 or so - struggling a bit as a friend and his family started becoming very avid church-goers. My family did the Easter and Christmas thing - so when invited by my friend (and his Mom) I felt compelled to go along.
> 
> Even at that age, I have reasoned that not going to church was OK because I had a conscience. And truly - I was a very good kid with mediocre parents. I could have gotten away with murder - but never wanted to.
> 
> One of the first sermons, the preacher spoke about how people (Me!) reason away the words in the Bible and choose to follow their Conscience instead. Seemed like he was talking to me almost.
> 
> Sorry - but a long winded way of saying that to this day, I'm not really sure that my conscience or my internal moral compass are enough to keep me on the straight and narrow. Not so sure it works for a lot of other people either.
> 
> Just look around here...


I didn't want to suggest that I'm naive, though. Living on the streets teaches you to see that people can do horrible things, but I think most of us have a moral compass. Some just get the little plastic thingy out of the Cracker Jack box, though. Ironically, some of the worst criminals I've known are much clearer about what they stand for than normal, everyday people (my wife has a big problem with the ones with former manslaughter convictions, though, but blood is blood). Usually, you can only trust this moral compass up to the point that hunger sets in, alcohol is consumed, or sex come into play. I try to just deal with people in this safety zone. My motto has always been: In God we trust, all else bring evidence.


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> When my marriage was falling apart - it became a reasonable goal. Instead of "fix the marriage" - I finally concluded I really just wanted to be happy - hoping that happiness somehow included my wife. I guess she's still included - but she won't be my wife much longer. And - I'm happier now than I was 6 months ago.
> 
> I suppose my utlimate goal probably changes quite often. But right now - "Be Happy" - still sounds pretty reasonable. But it also encompasses a lot of other things. Hard to be happy if my kids are miserable. Hard to be happy if I'm having a terrible day at work. etc., etc.,
> 
> What's your ultimate goal T? And why do I feel like I just failed some kind of test...


I think happiness is like the weather. It changes quickly and if it's always your goal you may be chasing after something that's pretty elusive and fleeting even if found.

My goal is to change the world but I'd be content with the foster care system for starters. I know how this sounds...like I'm 12 or daft or completely unrealistic. And I'm human. I think all the time about how I should get a job that pays a lot of money and grant my kids the materialistic things they think will make them happy, that I should work towards owning a big house or a new car or something. That I should let my husband make a fortune and let go of the fact that family is so important to me. I should balance things better and accept things rather than try to change them if I think they are not right. I think about it all the time and when I see how jaded the people trying to fix the system are and how important all their crap is to them I feel even more so like I should give up. Then I think I have no right do to this. To think that I am somehow good enough to make a difference and that I should shut myself up because people are sick of listening to me.

Then I think about the kid that I know about that was in seven homes in one year because he's been abused and now misbehaves and can't function normally or the billion other people I introduced myself to that have done nothing but struggle and I move on and can't think of doing anything differently.

Then I realize we all struggle. We all feel pain and love and hope and sorrow and happiness. I find this connection petrifyingly, mind bogglingly beautiful. So I guess it's my goal to never lose that too.

You didn't fail a test, I know I must come off as an ******* but I am really frustrated...just so very frustrated at the fact that the world absolutely could change for the better for everyone if we stopped believing that our own happiness is most important. It stinks when your own beliefs and ideals are unpopular and mine are obviously so. I don't know...I really, really, really want more from people.

I think I just ranted.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> My goal is to fall in love again. Hopefully one more time. Would be nice. Crazy love. With the monkey sex kind of crazy love.
> 
> I'll be fine if it doesn't pan out that way. But I do remember what that kind of love looks and feels like. And I know it isn't something you can force ... play games to bring about ... or manipulate to make happen.
> 
> But then again ... they can't hurt either.
> 
> :FIREdevil:


Oh my GODS! I think you just admitted that playing games and manipulation doesn't an in love couple make!

I'm debating quoting you and using it in my signature.


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> Then I realize we all struggle. We all feel pain and love and hope and sorrow and happiness. I find this connection petrifyingly, mind bogglingly *beautiful.* So I guess it's my goal to never lose that too.


Petrifying? Yes. Mind Boggling? Totally.

Beautiful? Interesting choice of words. 

But yes - we all struggle.



Trenton said:


> I think I just ranted.


And - we all rant. Just a reminder that yes - you are human.

And I don't think anyone around here is sick of hearing you talk about these things. Not sure you talk enough about it.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Oh my GODS! I think you just admitted that playing games and manipulation doesn't an in love couple make!
> 
> I'm debating quoting you and using it in my signature.



Checkmate.


----------



## Deejo

Nah ... Manipulated you again.

Just makes me look sensitive, vulnerable and appealing.


Game is like a spice. It enhances the dish (love). By itself it can't BE the dish.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Nah ... Manipulated you again.
> 
> Just makes me look sensitive, vulnerable and appealing.
> 
> 
> .


I prefer someone who is upfront and honest and no those aren't words they say but actions that support it. Games and manipulations are for those who cannot be genuine but I guess we disagree as to what that constitutes.


----------



## Halien

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I prefer someone who is upfront and honest and no those aren't words they say but actions that support it. Games and manipulations are for those who cannot be genuine but I guess we disagree as to what that constitutes.


Well, as long as you know what you are really asking for, and can take it, then I think it is admirable. I've been at the receiving end of upfront and honest for a couple of decades, and I'll pass in the next life. After a few hundred times, upfront and honest sounds an awful lot like insults. Feels like it too. Now, if I could hear one or two of those things that she assumed that I always knew, instead of waiting until I asked for a divorce, I wouldn't be on this forum.

Oh wait, are you just talking about upfront and honest on the things that don't make you squirm? Or if a therapist says to the spouse that he/she is being entirely too critical, do you just want what the therapist teaches them that its okay to say? Aren't we slipping into the game zone?

Please understand, I'm really not picking on you, but I don't think we can always assume that upfront and honest is always accurate and fair. In a healthy relationship, we have to pick our battles.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Nah ... Manipulated you again.
> 
> Just makes me look sensitive, vulnerable and appealing.
> 
> 
> Game is like a spice. It enhances the dish (love). By itself it can't BE the dish.


 You made a grown woman cry.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Halien said:


> Well, as long as you know what you are really asking for, and can take it, then I think it is admirable. I've been at the receiving end of upfront and honest for a couple of decades, and I'll pass in the next life. After a few hundred times, upfront and honest sounds an awful lot like insults. Feels like it too. Now, if I could hear one or two of those things that she assumed that I always knew, instead of waiting until I asked for a divorce, I wouldn't be on this forum.
> 
> Oh wait, are you just talking about upfront and honest on the things that don't make you squirm? Or if a therapist says to the spouse that he/she is being entirely too critical, do you just want what the therapist teaches them that its okay to say? Aren't we slipping into the game zone?
> 
> Please understand, I'm really not picking on you, but I don't think we can always assume that upfront and honest is always accurate and fair. In a healthy relationship, we have to pick our battles.


I've already been accused of t/j'ing once too many times. I'll PM you.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> You made a grown woman cry.


Now see, that is not a mutually desirable outcome. Are you manipulating me? Did you really cry?

I did mean the words. But not as a denouncement of game theory.

Game helps with attraction. Attraction is the gateway to love.

But just because someone is attracted to you, does not mean they get that tingly feeling from the tips of their toes to the top of their head kind of love, or light up when you walk in the room.

We're playing with one another. 

I tried 'surrendering' myself to love. Backfired. Twice.

Adding 'spice' thus far has proven far more successful in terms of getting outside my own set of expectations and having a better understanding of how people work.


----------



## Halien

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I've already been accused of t/j'ing once too many times. I'll PM you.


Please understand that I was only touting an extreme view to try to make the case that some people really speak their mind, thinking it sincere, but they have an incredible ability to forget to keep things in context. You see, there are a few of you on this site who really stand for integrity in everything you say, but some of us play this game of picking and choosing what we say because we don't want to hurt people, or get hurt again. 

I've heard it said that at the root level, our thoughts are a full array of unfiltered thoughts. We filter these before communication, all of us, because we want the words to be received in a very particular context. Then there is a higher level of contextual additions and deletions to these thought that center around reinforcing support or changing a person's mind. This third level is the dangerous level.

I was jokingly making the point that I really don't want to hear the unfiltered thoughts of anyone. Marry someone with a bipolar expression of these often unfiltered thoughts, and the third level becomes a question of survival. To some degree, we all live on a sliding spectrum of dysfunctional thinking. I'm getting in over my head here, but I think all of us have to do a degree of contextual thought filtering.


----------



## Deejo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I've already been accused of t/j'ing once too many times. I'll PM you.


It is my thread, dear lady. You may jack my thread. Wait ... that sounded scandalous.

I have been in a funky place with 'feelings' since my dad's passing, just about 3 weeks ago.

When it comes down to it, I was able to make choices, have conversations and conduct myself in a manner ... that I'm not sure I could have pulled off prior to deciding to man-up. 

Chief amongst them, holding my emotional sh!t together to deliver my father's eulogy. It was important to me. Someone had to say something that mattered. Something that encapsulated the dignity, grace, humor and irreverence of my father. That task could not be left to some stranger.

The changes I have made to my own behavior, what I hold myself responsible for, and beholding to, in terms of conduct has enabled me to do, and embrace tasks that I would have previously avoided. Some of them have been enormously beneficial and pleasurable. Others have been difficult and painful.

I feel better about them all.

My biggest changes have nothing to do with how I interact with women.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> It is my thread, dear lady. You may jack my thread. Wait ... that sounded scandalous.
> 
> I have been in a funky place with 'feelings' since my dad's passing, just about 3 weeks ago.
> 
> When it comes down to it, I was able to make choices, have conversations and conduct myself in a manner ... that I'm not sure I could have pulled off prior to deciding to man-up.
> 
> Chief amongst them, holding my emotional sh!t together to deliver my father's eulogy. It was important to me. Someone had to say something that mattered. Something that encapsulated the dignity, grace, humor and irreverence of my father. That task could not be left to some stranger.
> 
> The changes I have made to my own behavior, what I hold myself responsible for, and beholding to, in terms of conduct has enabled me to do, and embrace tasks that I would have previously avoided. Some of them have been enormously beneficial and pleasurable. Others have been difficult and painful.
> 
> I feel better about them all.
> 
> My biggest changes have nothing to do with how I interact with women.


I am so sorry for your lose. As you know, my mother passed away a month ago, albeit we were not close at all. I do find myself reflecting more. Truth be told, I struggle not to become her. She was the least truthful and most manipulative person I have ever known. I guess that is why I fight so hard not to give in to that. Perhaps total honesty and not playing games is a pipe dream but it's a dream I chose to believe in.
As for t/j'ing, I wish my husband would have been truthful from the get go. I still would have married him and would have had a heck of a lot more respect for him now if he acted with integrity rather than just talk about it.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Now see, that is not a mutually desirable outcome. Are you manipulating me? Did you really cry?
> 
> I did mean the words. But not as a denouncement of game theory.
> 
> Game helps with attraction. Attraction is the gateway to love.
> 
> But just because someone is attracted to you, does not mean they get that tingly feeling from the tips of their toes to the top of their head kind of love, or light up when you walk in the room.
> 
> We're playing with one another.
> 
> I tried 'surrendering' myself to love. Backfired. Twice.
> 
> Adding 'spice' thus far has proven far more successful in terms of getting outside my own set of expectations and having a better understanding of how people work.


Nah, not crying over here, just kidding with you. I know where you're coming from.

You need to surrender yourself to someone your equal maybe?


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> It is my thread, dear lady. You may jack my thread. Wait ... that sounded scandalous.
> 
> I have been in a funky place with 'feelings' since my dad's passing, just about 3 weeks ago.
> 
> When it comes down to it, I was able to make choices, have conversations and conduct myself in a manner ... that I'm not sure I could have pulled off prior to deciding to man-up.
> 
> Chief amongst them, holding my emotional sh!t together to deliver my father's eulogy. It was important to me. Someone had to say something that mattered. Something that encapsulated the dignity, grace, humor and irreverence of my father. That task could not be left to some stranger.
> 
> The changes I have made to my own behavior, what I hold myself responsible for, and beholding to, in terms of conduct has enabled me to do, and embrace tasks that I would have previously avoided. Some of them have been enormously beneficial and pleasurable. Others have been difficult and painful.
> 
> I feel better about them all.
> 
> My biggest changes have nothing to do with how I interact with women.


I know I already said it, but I am also sorry for your loss. 

I think you're discrediting the amount of honest, raw emotion it took to stand up there and deliver such a sincere tribute to the man you loved. Maybe you're misleading yourself to believe that what you've done is master a game or some type of manipulation/behavior modification when in reality what you've done is master yourself. In doing that you have more to give others, of course.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Nah, not crying over here, just kidding with you. I know where you're coming from.
> 
> You need to surrender yourself to someone your equal maybe?


Well great, now I have the Heart song "Surrender to Me" stuck in my brain. 

Need to focus on my hometown and their big upcoming game. A whales vagina!


----------



## that_girl

Deejo said:


> It is my thread, dear lady. You may jack my thread. Wait ... that sounded scandalous.
> 
> I have been in a funky place with 'feelings' since my dad's passing, just about 3 weeks ago.
> 
> When it comes down to it, I was able to make choices, have conversations and conduct myself in a manner ... that I'm not sure I could have pulled off prior to deciding to man-up.
> 
> Chief amongst them, holding my emotional sh!t together to deliver my father's eulogy. It was important to me. Someone had to say something that mattered. Something that encapsulated the dignity, grace, humor and irreverence of my father. That task could not be left to some stranger.
> 
> The changes I have made to my own behavior, what I hold myself responsible for, and beholding to, in terms of conduct has enabled me to do, and embrace tasks that I would have previously avoided. Some of them have been enormously beneficial and pleasurable. Others have been difficult and painful.
> 
> I feel better about them all.
> 
> My biggest changes have nothing to do with how I interact with women.


Sorry about your dad  I had to give my dad's eulogy too, but couldn't, so the minister (a family friend) read it. Hardest day.

But a lesson, no? Planning my dad's funeral was simply surreal. But, like you, allowed me to push myself just far enough to see that I was more than I thought.


----------



## Trenton

Halien said:


> Please understand that I was only touting an extreme view to try to make the case that some people really speak their mind, thinking it sincere, but they have an incredible ability to forget to keep things in context. You see, there are a few of you on this site who really stand for integrity in everything you say, but some of us play this game of picking and choosing what we say because we don't want to hurt people, or get hurt again.
> 
> I've heard it said that at the root level, our thoughts are a full array of unfiltered thoughts. We filter these before communication, all of us, because we want the words to be received in a very particular context. Then there is a higher level of contextual additions and deletions to these thought that center around reinforcing support or changing a person's mind. This third level is the dangerous level.
> 
> I was jokingly making the point that I really don't want to hear the unfiltered thoughts of anyone. Marry someone with a bipolar expression of these often unfiltered thoughts, and the third level becomes a question of survival. To some degree, we all live on a sliding spectrum of dysfunctional thinking. I'm getting in over my head here, but I think all of us have to do a degree of contextual thought filtering.


If I think to myself when reading a thread...he/she's really a complete *** **** ****** **** ******** *** ***! What I'll do is stay away from how I emotionally feel and try to address what I think instead. So it's not that I say everything that comes to mind, it's that I'm honest while trying to not be emotional.


----------



## alphaomega

I'll pipe up.

Playing the game is fun. Seriously. I'm not talking about manipulative PUA techniques in the bar, but gaming my own life and interactions within it. 

When I game, I'm not being disingenine. I'm not "playing". And I used to think it wasn't genuine. Only because it was soo far removed from my normal operating mode that it just felt strange. That's the key. It felt strange. 

For instance. At work, it was all business for me. Go to work. Do my job. No time for talking of any kind if it wasn't related to business. Dead pan serious all day.

Now...
Come to work. Compliment the old lady giving me my coffee. Walk the floor. Make a joke or two to get people engaged. mild flirting compliments to all the secretaries, because they are the one that really gets the job done. Do some work. Go visit during coffee to meet the other colleagues. More jokes. More teasing. Make some people laugh a bit. On and on throughout the day.......

You know what? People actually stop me in the hallways to chat now. I've become more approachable. I even have been invited out for Friday after work drinks now....something that has never happened before ever. Do I go? Not always. 
Other colleagues flirt with me now....not that I would go there....shatting where you eat and all that. But those colleagues also bring thier single girlfriends out with them too. 

And I game them too. Do I talk about MY fascination with Battlestar Galactica to them? Lol! Fk no! I just listen to them and comment on their own interests. They seem to stick around talking to me a lot longer that way.

And, of course...this one for Trenton....showing up to a lounge surrounded by pretty women helps the Preselection event work it's wonderful magic. 

Am I the same person? Of course I am. I'm still kind. Caring. And would never do anything to lead someone on for my own benefit, ever.

Play the game.


----------



## Trenton

alphaomega said:


> I'll pipe up.
> 
> Playing the game is fun. Seriously. I'm not talking about manipulative PUA techniques in the bar, but gaming my own life and interactions within it.
> 
> When I game, I'm not being disingenine. I'm not "playing". And I used to think it wasn't genuine. Only because it was soo far removed from my normal operating mode that it just felt strange. That's the key. It felt strange.
> 
> For instance. At work, it was all business for me. Go to work. Do my job. No time for talking of any kind if it wasn't related to business. Dead pan serious all day.
> 
> Now...
> Come to work. Compliment the old lady giving me my coffee. Walk the floor. Make a joke or two to get people engaged. mild flirting compliments to all the secretaries, because they are the one that really gets the job done. Do some work. Go visit during coffee to meet the other colleagues. More jokes. More teasing. Make some people laugh a bit. On and on throughout the day.......
> 
> You know what? People actually stop me in the hallways to chat now. I've become more approachable. I even have been invited out for Friday after work drinks now....something that has never happened before ever. Do I go? Not always.
> Other colleagues flirt with me now....not that I would go there....shatting where you eat and all that. But those colleagues also bring thier single girlfriends out with them too.
> 
> And I game them too. Do I talk about MY fascination with Battlestar Galactica to them? Lol! Fk no! I just listen to them and comment on their own interests. They seem to stick around talking to me a lot longer that way.
> 
> And, of course...this one for Trenton....showing up to a lounge surrounded by pretty women helps the Preselection event work it's wonderful magic.
> 
> Am I the same person? Of course I am. I'm still kind. Caring. And would never do anything to lead someone on for my own benefit, ever.
> 
> Play the game.


I think that's called having a personality and I can't find anything wrong with it if it's genuine. When you meet a woman after several preselection events do yourself a favor and do not lose that personality of yours because it seems like that's the mistake. Be sure to preselect a woman who celebrates your personality instead of squashing it until it's to the point where it feels strange to you to have one at all.

When telling men to man up, why not just say...it's time you allow yourself to be who you genuinely are and if after finding who you are now, your wife turns out to not like him, don't be afraid to walk away. I'm not going to argue that we shouldn't be ourselves for the sake of staying married...ever.


----------



## Halien

Trenton said:


> If I think to myself when reading a thread...he/she's really a complete *** **** ****** **** ******** *** ***! What I'll do is stay away from how I emotionally feel and try to address what I think instead. So it's not that I say everything that comes to mind, it's that I'm honest while trying to not be emotional.


Its easier for some than others. So much of my college studies were in software engineering, which teaches a person to break down their thoughts into very precise intentions. Also, after publishing a minor flop, a novel, in a partnership quite a few years ago, I've spent many years building some of the themes that won an editor's choice award into a series of novels that I'll probably publish in a decade or so (maybe?). The Brit fans said that the character captured the essence of a true man. I still get emails asking what he is up to. The American women thought he was just plain stupid. The man character was my part, while my partner handled some military themes. It was critical that this character doubt his own capacity to do well in social settings, and would get hung up on the smallest things (eye contact first, then smile?, or smile then eye contact?). 

Seems like everything gets filtered into some strange edited version before we speak, based on our situation, and you only have to meet with a person for a few minutes face to face to get them to see that they are doing it. Even examining our motives for continuing some threads, like this one, while abandoning others tells alot about the selective agendas we all follow. Or like our choice of avatars? What does it convey? Why? I could think of 8 years worth.

My point was that we do this with honesty as a goal, in most situations. I have a friend who is one of the few women I know who rarely wears makeup to work. She feels that it is more honest to avoid it, unless she is doing it for her husband on a night out, or other personal reasons. But when she had an interview for a job that would be a promotion, she wore makeup. I asked her, and she said that studies show that makeup can be preceived as more confident, qualified, and self-assured, so why wouldn't she? Was she gaming her potential new boss?


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> I think you're discrediting the amount of honest, raw emotion it took to stand up there and deliver such a sincere tribute to the man you loved. Maybe you're misleading yourself to believe that what you've done is master a game or some type of manipulation/behavior modification when in reality what you've done is master yourself. In doing that you have more to give others, of course.


:iagree:


----------



## Halien

Trenton said:


> I know I already said it, but I am also sorry for your loss.
> 
> I think you're discrediting the amount of honest, raw emotion it took to stand up there and deliver such a sincere tribute to the man you loved. Maybe you're misleading yourself to believe that what you've done is master a game or some type of manipulation/behavior modification when in reality what you've done is master yourself. In doing that you have more to give others, of course.


I also agree, and am sorry for your loss.

An older friend of mine in my company passed a few years ago. His wife was expecting a thousand or so at the memorial service, because he had been with the company for 38 years. He was one of my mentors. When he first learned that his cancer was terminal, he asked me to speak at his funeral. He was going through a very tough time with his job, and the two of us talked every day.

To speak for a mentor, or a pillar in your life, takes incredible courage. I know you went through alot of self-examining also. And you want to make sure that your words reflect the positives of his legacy, which was tough in my case, because my friend had burnt bridges.

Again, sorry for the loss.


----------



## Deejo

Well it is actually a good contrast between the two items in my post title.

Met a woman shortly before my dad's health declined. We had a very brief, and very passionate relationship. I used what I have learned from 'game' to make the best of, accept the relationship for what it was, then be honest about what I would need to do as a result of my dad's illness - and let the relationship go. She got it. She didn't feel used, manipulated or maligned. It was brief, honest, passionate, and fun.

Whereas, how I handled myself during my father's decline and death had everything to do with how I made the choice to change how I behave as an individual.

Best way I can sum up how I made my choices?

I decided to, 'be the kind of person I would admire.'


----------



## I'mAllIn

Trenton said:


> When telling men to man up, why not just say...it's time you allow yourself to be who you genuinely are and if after finding who you are now, your wife turns out to not like him, don't be afraid to walk away. I'm not going to argue that we shouldn't be ourselves for the sake of staying married...ever.


I'm just catching up on this thread, and this comment is absolutely dead on right! During one of our first conversations after finding out my H had considered cheating on me he asked what I needed from him in order to stay. I told him I needed him to be the man he genuinely is at heart. To say what he means, not what he thinks will be well received or get him promoted or avoid a confrontation. To do what he knows in his heart is right for himself, not just what a good dad/husband/employee/boss/provider would do. To be honest about what makes him happy, and what pisses him off, and what he needs from me. If he did that he could be confident that he'd done everything he possibly could, and I could make the decision to accept who he is and meet his needs or leave without wondering if there was more we could have done. 
I just don't feel like anyone can "Game" forever, so if a spouse stays because of something done only as part of game they'll most likely split when gradually game behaviour fades and real spouse slowly returns. Behavior modification on the other hand can be very positive if it's changing a behavior that we've felt personally could use adjusting. If on the other hand it's done only to keep spouse or get something we want I don't think the new behavior will stick either.


----------



## Halien

I'mAllIn said:


> I'm just catching up on this thread, and this comment is absolutely dead on right! During one of our first conversations after finding out my H had considered cheating on me he asked what I needed from him in order to stay. I told him I needed him to be the man he genuinely is at heart. To say what he means, not what he thinks will be well received or get him promoted or avoid a confrontation. To do what he knows in his heart is right for himself, not just what a good dad/husband/employee/boss/provider would do. To be honest about what makes him happy, and what pisses him off, and what he needs from me. If he did that he could be confident that he'd done everything he possibly could, and I could make the decision to accept who he is and meet his needs or leave without wondering if there was more we could have done.
> I just don't feel like anyone can "Game" forever, so if a spouse stays because of something done only as part of game they'll most likely split when gradually game behaviour fades and real spouse slowly returns. Behavior modification on the other hand can be very positive if it's changing a behavior that we've felt personally could use adjusting. If on the other hand it's done only to keep spouse or get something we want I don't think the new behavior will stick either.


One thing that I think women might have difficulty in understanding is that some of the neutral or positives of this whole concept are almost hardwired into male communication. Deborah Tannen pointed out in her articles and works that men and women have completely different goals in communicating, and that these can actually be the root of many common marital problems.

Many men really desire to speak with honesty and integrity. Some research shows that women have a goal of connecting when they communicate, to reach a place of intimacy. To share issues and problems with their spouse can be freeing, and make them feel like the time is quality time. To a man, goals can be more solutions oriented, or purpose oriented in reaching a place where they describe the time as intimate. Ironically, if you are an author, and you create a good male character, and a good female character, and describe their communication styles as just speaking their minds on issues, unfiltered, with no goal, readers will subconsciouly reject one of them as fake characters.

It doesn't make the whole subject of gaming inherently right, but only shows (maybe) that the idea of filtering our words based on our goal seems natural to a man who has ever spared a moment to think about it, while appearing offensive to a woman.


----------



## alphaomega

It's still all a game. To participate in an activity in order to achieve a desire outcome.

Which one of these statements would be better recieved by my mate next time I get fitness tested?

"god! Stop being such a fkn massive bit(h already!"

Or

"yes. Yes I am annoying you. But it's only because I love you so much I feel Safe enough to piss you off so greatly! Now come over here so I can grope your a$$"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega

Well, whatever. That last example didn't make any sense but the idea is still there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

alphaomega said:


> It's still all a game. To participate in an activity in order to achieve a desire outcome.
> 
> Which one of these statements would be better recieved by my mate next time I get fitness tested?
> 
> "god! Stop being such a fkn massive bit(h already!"
> 
> Or
> 
> "yes. Yes I am annoying you. But it's only because I love you so much I feel Safe enough to piss you off so greatly! Now come over here so I can grope your a$$"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Neither. Both show obnoxiousness (not YOU personally). One through swear words and the other through acknowledging that "you" are annoying and that "you" weren't smart enough to change that. 

I'd walk out on both statements. Try again Canada.


----------



## alphaomega

Lol. Maybe I is annoying?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

alphaomega said:


> Lol. Maybe I is annoying?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nope, just your grammar.


----------



## alphaomega

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Neither. Both show obnoxiousness (not YOU personally). One through swear words and the other through acknowledging that "you" are annoying and that "you" weren't smart enough to change that.
> 
> I'd walk out on both statements. Try again Canada.


God! Stop being such a massive bit(h already! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

alphaomega said:


> God! Stop being such a massive bit(h already!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stop with the compliments.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

This is an interesting subject -since it is about being REAL - Authentic in who we are. Being mindful of how far the "game" is taking us - calling our motives & intentions to the plate. Interesting responses by AFEH about Healthy selfishness, "healthy manipulation"- never heard that one before. 

I suppose we all engage in some subtle game playing , if it would be classified as this. I am not so sure. Never thought about any of this -that deeply. 

I mean we all want to come off as SANE, RATIONAL & not a bore when we meet someone new- and of coarse attractiveness is a plus as well...are we selfish for desiring these things, for caring how others see us? I wouldn't really call that "gaming" or fishing for anything -but showing we care for ourselves, we are worthy of respect. Balance in all things. 

Noticed the one post about the wife who never wears makeup except for her husband, but did for a recent job interview. I suppose that is honorable, makes me think of an Amish dutch woman or something. Well, I will be the 1st to admit - I am more VAIN than that, I still want to look attractive to others ...men & women... when I go out, not just for my husband..... It makes *ME *feel better about myself, how I carry myself. Makes me feel younger somehow, that is a lifting of spirits-for ME, how I see myself. 

We all have a spirit of IMPRESSING -I see nothing inherently wrong with this - if balanced. Let's say we are having a BIG Party with many guests - who doesn't clean thier house like mad, present a layout of delicious food, weed wack carefully around every tree - so others feel you take pride in the upkeep of your yard, you are a Good Hostess- you want to throw a Happening party so all will have a blast & come back again. Really the guests themselves is more important than anything-they bring the FUN , but atmosphere is important too !! 

What is the reward ....we get some compliments. I can admit I enjoy that -makes me feel good. But my ultimate motivation....and I can say this with honesty, as I do throw big parties a couple times a year -- it is for MY kids, their memories, I want them to look back, have SWEET bonding memories with their GOOD friends at our house. I am not going to get a truckload of compliments from those kids but I see the happiness written on thier faces, I hear the laughter, that Motivates me to go to all of this trouble. 




Deejo said:


> True Story:
> Girl I dated for over six months told me that she had been on 2 dates prior to meeting me. One guy although very pleasant, was visibly awkward and uncomfortable, on the date. He was being genuine.
> 
> Guy number 2 talked a mile a minute, and apparently (I'm totally serious here) went on in depth about his fascination with the B.B.C science fiction series, Dr. Who for the better part of an hour. He was being genuine.
> 
> Neither of them got second dates.
> 
> That's the kind of dynamic I'm referring to. Behavior makes an impression.
> 
> If date #1 came across as confident and fun, and #2 shut his mouth to listen to his date, and NOT talk about his favorite sci-fi series on a first date ... both may have had different outcomes. So had they chosen to modify their behavior, for a more desirable outcome, does that mean they were playing games?


Now as for ME, I would NOT throw out date #1 that quickly. Many good hearted people are nervous on a 1st date, not Mr. walking confidence, maybe she was a hottie & that made him all the more nervous (it happens). If he was cute, I would be having him back till he warmed up to me and opened up a bit, got him talking. She did NOT see the REAL MAN that night, she didn't give him enough time. 


Date #2 would have annoyed me much more so, but I would have has some FUN with that, probing into how he became so obsessed -Might even throw my hands up in the air and ask if he eats sleeps and pisses Dr Who. (I wouldn't swear on a 1st date, very unlady like), but really... I enjoy talking as much as anyone else, but give & take is *essential*, anyone with some sense would not keep yakking when the other is obviously not interested & enthusiatic to hear more. 



MEM11363 said:


> I tend to think of manipulation as an underhanded way of getting the results you want. If your motives are clear and you desire a mutually positive outcome there is nothing wrong with doing stuff to provoke a specific reaction. Most people with good interpersonal skills can tell you what they want, why they want it and then they behave in a way consistent with that.
> As long as I don't trick someone or try to harm them, I am fine with my goal oriented behavior.


 
I agree with this. I consider myself like this. I have no problem admitting what I am after, even IF I have a selfish motive in mind, I might even blurt that out too -if I know the person well enough. I think alot of humor comes along when we can accually be authentic in what we are after. A selfishness and humility at the same time. Maybe this sounds crazy, maybe I am not even making sense ! 



Deejo said:


> You can meet two sales people selling the exact same thing, one you can't get away from quick enough, and the other has you talking about everything but the product, and the next thing you know you are convinced that you NEED this, and you've signed a purchase order.


This would never happen to me -if I REALLY didn't want the product , I would be so honest about my intentions, the guy would probably find me "strange". I would tell him outright -that I did not want to waste his time, that I would not be buying BUt the conversation has been fun- so he could "end" his game with me. 



Here is my motto... when I do something for someone, friends, family, I do it cause I want to bless them -If my motives is to EXPECT something in return, I have to re-evulate what I am doing -cause likely I might be setting myself up for a fall. When I know I want something --If dealing with my husband, well I just let him know exactly what is on my mind -every blasted detail -but he likes that, so all is good). 

BUt others, I am not *THAT *forward -but still I TRY to 
not put myself in the role of "expectation" too much. Cause that in itself can lead to resentment if we are secretly "expecting" -while our UN-authentic actions did not bring about the correct response in the person we are trying to manipulate. Did that make any sense at all !!? It was too deep for my husband to comprehend -haha 

It is Best when we DO cause our hearts are INTO it, not cause we are priming for a specific reaction. If I give to a charity, it is cause I care to help that cause, not cause someone will see me giving and think I am a good person. 




alphaomega said:


> Playing the game is fun. Seriously. I'm not talking about manipulative PUA techniques in the bar, but gaming my own life and interactions within it.
> 
> When I game, I'm not being disingenine. I'm not "playing". And I used to think it wasn't genuine. Only because it was soo far removed from my normal operating mode that it just felt strange. That's the key. It felt strange.
> 
> For instance. At work, it was all business for me. Go to work. Do my job. No time for talking of any kind if it wasn't related to business. Dead pan serious all day.
> 
> Now...
> Come to work. Compliment the old lady giving me my coffee. Walk the floor. Make a joke or two to get people engaged. mild flirting compliments to all the secretaries, because they are the one that really gets the job done. Do some work. Go visit during coffee to meet the other colleagues. More jokes. More teasing. Make some people laugh a bit. On and on throughout the day.......
> 
> You know what? People actually stop me in the hallways to chat now. I've become more approachable. I even have been invited out for Friday after work drinks now....something that has never happened before ever. Do I go? Not always.
> Other colleagues flirt with me now....not that I would go there....shatting where you eat and all that. But those colleagues also bring thier single girlfriends out with them too.
> 
> And I game them too. Do I talk about MY fascination with Battlestar Galactica to them? Lol! Fk no! I just listen to them and comment on their own interests. They seem to stick around talking to me a lot longer that way.
> 
> And, of course...this one for Trenton....showing up to a lounge surrounded by pretty women helps the Preselection event work it's wonderful magic.
> 
> Am I the same person? Of course I am. I'm still kind. Caring. And would never do anything to lead someone on for my own benefit, ever.
> 
> Play the game.


 I liked the ...."'I've become more approachable" part. Yeah, sounded like a stick in the mudd before. Really, this post just sounds like a light hearted guy NOW taking advantage of re-discovering what he was originally missing on his job-people interaction - and others are now enjoying His company, all a win -win.

Is this gaming though ??? Sounds like it is just being authenitcally friendly to me ! I am still confusseeedddddd.


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## nice777guy

I'm still thinking of job interviews. Be a better version of yourself for a short time. But not so much that - if you get the job - you'll have to spend the rest of your life pretending to be someone that you're not.

And wear LOTS of Axe Body Spray!

(working on an endorsement deal here...)


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## SimplyAmorous

nice777guy said:


> I'm still thinking of job interviews. Be a better version of yourself for a short time. But not so much that - if you get the job - you'll have to spend the rest of your life pretending to be someone that you're not.



You know what I find funny is this... most of the best BSers out there can land most any interview they get & their work ethic generally is lagging -cause they are too busy Bsing on the Job after that. We have a friend like that, love him but he has been fired, hired, let go, hired again, and again, some realy good jobs, can charm those Bosses at the interview, but can you depend on him !?? uuhh not so much. 

Then we have someone like my husband, rather quiet on such interviews , doesn't offer much, unless asked, no aires given out -he is not someone who is going to sit there & talk himself up -but he IS an exemplary employee, loyal, faithful, thorough, the whole bit -but very little BS. Just comes in with a pleasant demeanour and honesty - cut and dried, what you see is what you get. His references is where he would shine more so.


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## Halien

SimplyAmorous said:


> You know what I find funny is this... most of the best BSers out there can land most any interview they get & their work ethic generally is lagging -cause they are too busy Bsing on the Job after that. We have a friend like that, love him but he has been fired, hired, let go, hired again, and again, some realy good jobs, can charm those Bosses at the interview, but can you depend on him !?? uuhh not so much.
> 
> Then we have someone like my husband, rather quiet on such interviews , doesn't offer much, unless asked, no aires given out -he is not someone who is going to sit there & talk himself up -but he IS an exemplary employee, loyal, faithful, thorough, the whole bit -but very little BS. Just comes in with a pleasant demeanour and honesty - cut and dried, what you see is what you get. His references is where he would shine more so.


Not to go too far off topic, but this is one of the most frustrating parts of the way some places interview. Where I work, we have to go through a structured class before being allowed to interview. It it focused on drilling below the BS, searching for integrity and past performance. A candidate gets a score for each section, like teamwork, mutual respect, execution, etc if they can pass the guidelines for that element through proven results. If it helps, your husband sounds like he would do well in this process. It cuts out the bull. It cuts out the gameplayers.


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## Deejo

I posted this over a year ago in another thread:



Deejo said:


> ... But 'Gaming' believes it's own marketing material. The thrust is meeting women, talking to women, winning over women, sexing women. I used to think this was fundamentally disrespectful. I do not hold that view any longer.
> 
> However, for all of the really good stuff PUA technology has to offer, as various authors or 'gamers' will discuss their numerous conquests ... is that 'gaming' is also like a pyramid scheme. It is geared towards the next score and not a 'one and done' mentality. This is because if you are a 'gamer' trying to conduct a LTR, at some point with your partner, the game face has to come off. You have to just ... be. And the reality is, when you do that, you're just another schmuck.


My point is ... there is a difference between making changes to get the girl, and making changes to get comfortable with yourself. If 'being myself' means that I eventually enable and allow others to take advantage of me ... then I want to make positive changes to 'being myself'.

'Game' is often used to describe learning skills to be more successful in interacting with women. Behavior modification, whether it is being more assertive, strengthening boundaries, overcoming fears, de-personalizing, being a better listener ... or communicator, whatever. I think of it as emotional fitness. 

To me, it isn't about trying to be someone I'm not. It's about being a better version of who I'm supposed to be.


----------



## Deejo

SimplyAmorous said:


> You know what I find funny is this... most of the best BSers out there can land most any interview they get & their work ethic generally is lagging -cause they are too busy Bsing on the Job after that. We have a friend like that, love him but he has been fired, hired, let go, hired again, and again, some realy good jobs, can charm those Bosses at the interview, but can you depend on him !?? uuhh not so much.
> 
> Then we have someone like my husband, rather quiet on such interviews , doesn't offer much, unless asked, no aires given out -he is not someone who is going to sit there & talk himself up -but he IS an exemplary employee, loyal, faithful, thorough, the whole bit -but very little BS. Just comes in with a pleasant demeanour and honesty - cut and dried, what you see is what you get. His references is where he would shine more so.



This is a gem. It's true. Doesn't matter if it's a job interview or a date ... there are personal behaviors and traits ..._that people find attractive._ And plenty of very desirable and admirable traits that you simply cannot convey, see or experience until you have gotten the job, or are in the LTR.


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## SimplyAmorous

Halien said:


> Not to go too far off topic, but this is one of the most frustrating parts of the way some places interview. Where I work, we have to go through a structured class before being allowed to interview. It it focused on drilling below the BS, searching for integrity and past performance. A candidate gets a score for each section, like teamwork, mutual respect, execution, etc if they can pass the guidelines for that element through proven results. If it helps, your husband sounds like he would do well in this process. It cuts out the bull. It cuts out the gameplayers.


So you are an Interviewer - the man who hires. 

He did land a really good blue collar job that we are SO very thankful for - maybe because they did do those type tests, or something similar. Many candidates were eliminated, not an easy job to land either, on the RR. I know he talked about the Psychological type questions -he answered honestly - but given his answers -I would think it would make him look worse. Stuff like ....if you ever wanted to steal something -he answered YES! If he ever wanted to run away from home. He paused on that one -- and fibbed - he put YES but in reality, he never did want to run away from home. 

I guess those tests expect you to make yourself look a litlte bad to prove you are honest. I don't know! But he got in !


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## SimplyAmorous

Deejo said:


> This is a gem. It's true. Doesn't matter if it's a job interview or a date ... there are personal behaviors and traits ..._that people find attractive._ And plenty of very desirable and admirable traits that you simply cannot convey, see or experience until you have gotten the job, or are in the LTR.


I see what you mean about what I said.... the BSers are attractive -it gets them in the DOOR anyway! Using that charm to entice. So there you go -play the Game - to get in the door, get the Job... get the woman. But half the time, those are the duds . ha ha Gotta separate the sheep from the goats once the "on the Job training " starts.


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## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> I'm still thinking of job interviews. Be a better version of yourself for a short time. But not so much that - if you get the job - you'll have to spend the rest of your life pretending to be someone that you're not.
> 
> And wear LOTS of Axe Body Spray!
> 
> (working on an endorsement deal here...)


I've spent a lot of time lately kissing old, rich men's butts. I've found that smiling and throwing some subtle, flirty behavior in the mix works wonders for getting what I want from them...donations, grants, sponsorship's. 

I'm doing marketing now. I'd be completely fooling myself if I thought I was being honest with my behavior and words when I'm building relationships.

I'm dirty.


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## Therealbrighteyes

SimplyAmorous said:


> So you are an Interviewer - the man who hires.
> 
> He did land a really good blue collar job that we are SO very thankful for - maybe because they did do those type tests, or something similar. Many candidates were eliminated, not an easy job to land either, on the RR. I know he talked about the Psychological type questions -he answered honestly - but given his answers -I would think it would make him look worse. Stuff like ....if you ever wanted to steal something -he answered YES! If he ever wanted to run away from home. He paused on that one -- and fibbed - he put YES but in reality, he never did want to run away from home.
> 
> I guess those tests expect you to make yourself look a litlte bad to prove you are honest. I don't know! But he got in !


Those tests are designed to get a window in to your personality. I took a similar test. The final question was "If you had to murder some random person, would you use a gun or a knife?". Letting them live wasn't an option. I chose a gun because it was less contact and quicker as far as pain to the victim. I got the job and months later I asked HR what the "right" answer was. Neither was. Using a gun showed that you had compassion for the victim yet wanted to keep yourself more removed from it although you exposed yourself to others who heard the gun shot, having to retrieve the bullet and disposing of the gun. Using a knife meant you cared less about the victim's suffering but was up close and personal with them, didn't have anybody who heard what you did, yet got lots of blood on your hands/body.


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## Deejo

I interviewed a candidate for our team yesterday. Candidates usually run a gauntlet of three team members. We directly interact with clients and other contractors frequently. Grace under fire and very strong communication skills are a must. So ... I would ask him a question and then purposely interrupt him while he was answering with a redirecting question to see how he handled himself.

He never broke eye contact, looked frustrated, or stuttered. If he was being inauthentic ... he did a hell of a job.

That's a bit of gaming ... tells you something about who you are interacting with. 

SA, I like the story about your husband.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> I interviewed a candidate for our team yesterday. Candidates usually run a gauntlet of three team members. We directly interact with clients and other contractors frequently. Grace under fire and very strong communication skills are a must. So ... I would ask him a question and then purposely interrupt him while he was answering with a redirecting question to see how he handled himself.
> 
> He never broke eye contact, looked frustrated, or stuttered. If he was being inauthentic ... he did a hell of a job.
> 
> That's a bit of gaming ... tells you something about who you are interacting with.
> 
> SA, I like the story about your husband.


Take him out to lunch and you will see his true character.


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## Deejo

I'm aware of the 'lunch method' as well. You pay attention to how they interact with the wait staff, not you.


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## Halien

SimplyAmorous said:


> So you are an Interviewer - the man who hires.
> 
> He did land a really good blue collar job that we are SO very thankful for - maybe because they did do those type tests, or something similar. Many candidates were eliminated, not an easy job to land either, on the RR. I know he talked about the Psychological type questions -he answered honestly - but given his answers -I would think it would make him look worse. Stuff like ....if you ever wanted to steal something -he answered YES! If he ever wanted to run away from home. He paused on that one -- and fibbed - he put YES but in reality, he never did want to run away from home.
> 
> I guess those tests expect you to make yourself look a litlte bad to prove you are honest. I don't know! But he got in !


I just work for a company that lets HR do the candidate selection, but actual operations people do the interviewing and decisions to hire. I'd say that about 1% of salaried people receive the training, plus any manager that needs it. As Brighteyes said, we're just trying to understand character traits. If they can make Ice tea out of a situation, they will probably get the job - ICE-T - Integrity, committment, Excellence and Teamwork.


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## SimplyAmorous

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Those tests are designed to get a window in to your personality. I took a similar test. The final question was "If you had to murder some random person, would you use a gun or a knife?". Letting them live wasn't an option. I chose a gun because it was less contact and quicker as far as pain to the victim. I got the job and months later I asked HR what the "right" answer was. Neither was. Using a gun showed that you had compassion for the victim yet wanted to keep yourself more removed from it although you exposed yourself to others who heard the gun shot, having to retrieve the bullet and disposing of the gun. Using a knife meant you cared less about the victim's suffering but was up close and personal with them, didn't have anybody who heard what you did, yet got lots of blood on your hands/body.


I would surely use a gun too - these things make an awful lot of sense though....if you are a thinker- that question was not on his test. 

One thing they did at the opening interview where the place was packed with potential candidates -is described the job as though you would be working round the clock in adverse weather conditions with no shelter, they must have really talked it up -sounded like the men would be standing there freezing their balls off with a little fire going or something. He told me a bunch of men walked out after that ! None of that was even true, they were just "weeding them out" in the 1st phase. He works in the yards & they have very comfortable buildings to hang in- in between the welding & changing brake shoes, whatever work those individual cars need. 

I can't even imagine anyone saying a knife - surely it would register that is a very brutal & inhumane way to go - and putting a knife to your chances for that job as well !


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## Therealbrighteyes

SimplyAmorous said:


> I would surely use a gun too - these things make an awful lot of sense though....if you are a thinker- that question was not on his test.
> 
> I can't even imagine anyone saying a knife - surely it would register that is a very brutal & inhumane way to go - and putting a knife to your chances for that job as well !


Oddly enough, the knife method while more brutal, showed that the person doing the killing was more likely to look in to the eyes of the victim and "see" them as human beings rather than what a shooter would. That closeness to the victim and willingness to get blood on their hands rather than shooting from further away, detaching them from the entire thing, showed that often times those who kill with a knife are more connected than those who use a gun. Scary. Like I said, neither was the "right" answer. It just delves in to our personality.


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## Halien

Trenton said:


> I've spent a lot of time lately kissing old, rich men's butts. I've found that smiling and throwing some subtle, flirty behavior in the mix works wonders for getting what I want from them...donations, grants, sponsorship's.
> 
> I'm doing marketing now. I'd be completely fooling myself if I thought I was being honest with my behavior and words when I'm building relationships.
> 
> I'm dirty.


I'm with you there. Several of my friends have moved into Marketing. I can't stand the thought of smoozing potential clients - its just dishonest feeling to me.

Now, BEING the client, on the other hand, is a subtle temptation. I actually had a supplier park his yacht in the same warehouse that she was showing a new machine we were buying. My friends hate travelling with me, though. I'm by the book. If they offer more than a hat, I return it. Well ... except for the christmas coupon to my wife's favorite restaraunt for $100. It was already paid, and in my name. Or the pocket knife that had the built in USB drive. And did you know it actually offends Japanese business owners if you refuse the gift of an engraved leather briefcase? Wouldn't want to hurt any feelings... But the BMW deal was crossing the line!


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## Trenton

Halien said:


> I'm with you there. Several of my friends have moved into Marketing. I can't stand the thought of smoozing potential clients - its just dishonest feeling to me.
> 
> Now, BEING the client, on the other hand, is a subtle temptation. I actually had a supplier park his yacht in the same warehouse that she was showing a new machine we were buying. My friends hate travelling with me, though. I'm by the book. If they offer more than a hat, I return it. Well ... except for the christmas coupon to my wife's favorite restaraunt for $100. It was already paid, and in my name. Or the pocket knife that had the built in USB drive. And did you know it actually offends Japanese business owners if you refuse the gift of an engraved leather briefcase? Wouldn't want to hurt any feelings... But the BMW deal was crossing the line!


Hmmm...yeah, well, when you're in the non-profit world all you're getting is a sweet smile from a woman who really believes what she's saying to you but gets that it's not something you want to think about. We don't have any funding for marketing. My job is to beg people for opportunities to market our organization or to sell them this idea that every child deserves a safe home. Considering there's nothing in it for the other person besides doing the right thing, it's not an easy sell which is why I think I feel sometimes that I'm the one who is for sale.

Since starting I've been given several business cards with pictures of the people's treasures on the front and promises of taking me for a ride on them. So, for example, the guy's favorite car in full color with his info on back or a yacht or even the one guy's plane. It feels wrong. Almost like if I go for a ride on the boat I'll be more likely to get the funding. I don't go on the boat, have absolutely no desire to go on the boat. I'm pretty sure most of these men really just want some time to talk about themselves, to feel important and if they feel important enough they will drop some of their money on your org. Sad, because what I really want is for them to hear me and agree with me and feel motivated to get involved. I'm not sure you can manipulate someone into that though.


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## Halien

Trenton said:


> Since starting I've been given several business cards with pictures of the people's treasures on the front and promises of taking me for a ride on them. So, for example, the guy's favorite car in full color with his info on back or a yacht or even the one guy's plane. It feels wrong. Almost like if I go for a ride on the boat I'll be more likely to get the funding. I don't go on the boat, have absolutely no desire to go on the boat. I'm pretty sure most of these men really just want some time to talk about themselves, to feel important and if they feel important enough they will drop some of their money on your org. Sad, because what I really want is for them to hear me and agree with me and feel motivated to get involved. I'm not sure you can manipulate someone into that though.


I hate to keep hijacking Deejo's thread, but believe it or not, one of my major factors for choosing my company over other offers was the approach to social responsibility. For most of our personal donations that are on a recognized list, the organization gets company matching. And my annual performance summary includes social responsibility. The best way to move up in the company is to have a resume that includes leading efforts for social initiatives - mine was a mentoring/hiring program from a college in an underdeveloped area. You likely know that such programs exist, so I hope these help your organization. Thanks for what you do for others.


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## Deejo

Don't see it as hijacking.

I know very few people that are successful at building business relationships that do not have high EIQ's, know the 'game' of transactional relationships, or are able to clearly convey boundaries.

In other words, playing games and behavior modification in business may be even more appropriate than in interpersonal relationships, as 'Dirty' Trenton has discovered.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Don't see it as hijacking.
> 
> I know very few people that are successful at building business relationships that do not have high EIQ's, know the 'game' of transactional relationships, or are able to clearly convey boundaries.
> 
> In other words, playing games and behavior modification in business may be even more appropriate than in interpersonal relationships, as 'Dirty' Trenton has discovered.


The key word there is "business" relationships. What Trenton is doing to raise funds would hardly work in a personal relationship without tremendous resentment on the part of the fund raiser. The "game" of what she is doing would be her undoing.


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## Trenton

Halien, my experience has been that most businesses use social responsibility as a front or image enhancer and tapping into that type of resource is about who you know or lining up your mission succinctly with a business' social responsibility choice. When we do an Ad Journal it's also about who you know...honor someone at the gala with a lot of connections so that they bring their advertisers to the mix.

In fact, everything from getting published in the press, booking the right venue to receiving competitive funding is based upon relationship building and maintenance of these relationships.


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## Trenton

Therealbrighteyes said:


> The key word there is "business" relationships. What Trenton is doing to raise funds would hardly work in a personal relationship without tremendous resentment on the part of the fund raiser. The "game" of what she is doing would be her undoing.


I would rather be alone (maybe even dead) than be in a personal relationship with these types of games or rules.


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Considering there's nothing in it for the other person besides doing the right thing, it's not an easy sell which is why I think I feel sometimes that I'm the one who is for sale.


Which was my point in the earlier comment I made about salespeople. You are selling YOU. People buy stuff from people they like. Look at it from the perspective that any organization you talk to, is likely already making some form of charitable contribution. You walk in and are asking them to make another.

If they are already resistant, you aren't going to sway them with your passionate belief and facts ... if you get them to contribute it is going to be because YOU connected with them, somehow, in some way.




Trenton said:


> Since starting I've been given several business cards with pictures of the people's treasures on the front and promises of taking me for a ride on them. So, for example, the guy's favorite car in full color with his info on back or a yacht or even the one guy's plane. It feels wrong. Almost like if I go for a ride on the boat I'll be more likely to get the funding. I don't go on the boat, have absolutely no desire to go on the boat. I'm pretty sure most of these men really just want some time to talk about themselves, to feel important and if they feel important enough they will drop some of their money on your org. Sad, because what I really want is for them to hear me and agree with me and feel motivated to get involved. I'm not sure you can manipulate someone into that though.



I actually find you sharing this fascinating. Because we could easily turn this on it's head and make you a sex starved husband, and you're potential contributor into a disinterested wife.



Trenton said:


> Sad, because what I really want is for them to hear me and agree with me and feel motivated to get involved. I'm not sure you can manipulate someone into that though.


You're right. Not if your expectation is that they should be passionate about it because you are passionate about it. But, let's face it, SOMEBODY gets these people to open their wallets. There are steps to take and skills that one can learn to make that more likely. Keeping with the reframing ... you essentially need to decide if you want to 'Man Up'.

Question for you is, finding the boundary where you are successful supporting the cause that you are passionate about, and maintaining 'who you are'.

Hope that makes sense. Really appreciate you sharing that.


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> In fact, everything from getting published in the press, booking the right venue to receiving competitive funding is based upon relationship building and maintenance of these relationships.


Are you saying that you didn't believe this was, or should be the case?


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## Trenton

Deejo, it's why I say it always comes down to marketing and advertising. I think it's true. I understand and play the game.

I can't and don't want it to be true in my private and personal relationship with my husband. That's why the truth is that much more so important in my relationship with my husband. To think that my relationship is similar to that of what I've seen and experienced in the rest of the world is really scary for me. Like I said, I honestly would rather be alone.


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## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Are you saying that you didn't believe this was, or should be the case?


When I first started working in non-profits years ago I didn't think it would be the case. I thought things along the lines of a worthy cause will flourish on passion alone, all we have to do is do the right thing, people are genuinely good and will give if you prove to them the cause is necessary and you have the best possible solution for the social problem you're trying to fix, etc.

It was a sad wake up call. If I get the same wake up call in my marriage I will feel very alone.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Deejo, it's why I say it always comes down to marketing and advertising. I think it's true. I understand and play the game.
> 
> I can't and don't want it to be true in my private and personal relationship with my husband. That's why the truth is that much more so important in my relationship with my husband. To think that my relationship is similar to that of what I've seen and experienced in the rest of the world is really scary for me. Like I said, I honestly would rather be alone.


I think what it really comes down to is you want others to share your passion/enthusiasm without having to "sell/game" anyone, business or personal. Yes?


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## Trenton

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I think what it really comes down to is you want others to share your passion/enthusiasm without having to "sell/game" anyone, business or personal. Yes?


Ideally, of course, but I understand that this is unrealistic because how can I expect others to be passionate/enthusiastic about something just because I am?

So I don't have a problem selling myself but the person I have available to sell has to be good enough "As Is". I don't believe you can learn ways to sell and maintain a semblance to self because you are obviously making changes. I think if you do think so that you are deluding yourself.


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## Trenton

Deejo, another funny thing I've learned is that persistence can win over most other things. No doubt, there have been times my persistence has resulted in positive results. In fact, maybe more so than any other method I have tried.


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> I can't and don't want it to be true in my private and personal relationship with my husband. That's why the truth is that much more so important in my relationship with my husband. To think that my relationship is similar to that of what I've seen and experienced in the rest of the world is really scary for me. Like I said, I honestly would rather be alone.


I'm not trying to get you to come over to the dark side. If anything, I suppose my hope is that you can acknowledge that the dark side isn't always about being dark.

If you suck at your job and you want to be better at it ... then you learn new skills to improve.

If your relationship sucks and you want it to be better, the same thing holds true.

I don't regret a thing. Primarily, because there is nothing to regret. But ... I used to believe there would be.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Ideally, of course, but I understand that this is unrealistic because how can I expect others to be passionate/enthusiastic about something just because I am?
> 
> So I don't have a problem selling myself but the person I have available to sell has to be good enough "As Is". I don't believe you can learn ways to sell and maintain a semblance to self because you are obviously making changes. I think if you do think so that you are deluding yourself.


Any chance my twin isn't really my twin but actually a lady who resides in NJ?


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## Trenton

I understand the dark side mentality but it doesn't work for me. I don't think anything is purely dark anyway. If I feel dirty, there's a reason.

I do think men and women think differently. I really do. This Man Up thing is f'd up because you're selling a split from your wife package as a fix your unhappy marriage package. 

When a man is bluntly honest I'm always shocked at the stark difference between what I thought their actions meant and what they felt or the motivators for the actions. Men don't want to believe that women know what they want and are honest because they lack the ability to understand from a lack of experience and vice versa. It's interesting. We're basically both incredulous with one another and yet attracted to one another.


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## Trenton

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Any chance my twin isn't really my twin but actually a lady who resides in NJ?


I've always said I believe in possibilities! :rofl:


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Deejo, another funny thing I've learned is that persistence can win over most other things. No doubt, there have been times my persistence has resulted in positive results. In fact, maybe more so than any other method I have tried.


Persistence with rapport and relationship building? Absolutely.

Persistence without changing your approach and just keep doing the same thing that results in "No." means you aren't paying attention, whether you're a business person or in a personal relationship.


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## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Persistence with rapport and relationship building? Absolutely.
> 
> Persistence without changing your approach and just keep doing the same thing that results in "No." means you aren't paying attention, whether you're a business person or in a personal relationship.


I genuinely care about other people which makes relationship building easier for me than it is for most. I think others can sense when you honestly care about them.

I think you'd be surprised how often persistence is all it takes.


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## Halien

Trenton said:


> Halien, my experience has been that most businesses use social responsibility as a front or image enhancer and tapping into that type of resource is about who you know or lining up your mission succinctly with a business' social responsibility choice. When we do an Ad Journal it's also about who you know...honor someone at the gala with a lot of connections so that they bring their advertisers to the mix.
> 
> In fact, everything from getting published in the press, booking the right venue to receiving competitive funding is based upon relationship building and maintenance of these relationships.


I'm referring to really big businesses. Sure, they get tax breaks for what they do, but the advantage of using it as character indicator is attracting and keeping people who will basically do the right thing in given situations. Honestly, for lots of them, networking doesn't do much for some of the people unless they are VP or CEO, and most in my experience, just buy new buildings for schools and have their name put on it. Every day, when I open my internal home page at work, there are stories of catastrophies in other countries and here. Beneath each is a link to donate. I've had some involvement with strategy development across the globe, as a global platform leader, so I'm pretty sure there is no real hidden agendas.


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## Trenton

Halien said:


> I'm referring to really big businesses. Sure, they get tax breaks for what they do, but the advantage of using it as character indicator is attracting and keeping people who will basically do the right thing in given situations. Honestly, for lots of them, networking doesn't do much for some of the people unless they are VP or CEO, and most in my experience, just buy new buildings for schools and have their name put on it. Every day, when I open my internal home page at work, there are stories of catastrophies in other countries and here. Beneath each is a link to donate. I've had some involvement with strategy development across the globe, as a global platform leader, so I'm pretty sure there is no real hidden agendas.


Yeah, I think we're talking different levels. Hopefully, one day, I'll get up to the corporate level but we're talking small grants/donations/sponsors on the level of 1k - 25k to sustain a small, local non-profit with gross receipts under 400k per year.

Although I have a really interesting story about a time when I clearly saw hidden agenda at the corporate level with interactions with the VP of the foundation for the corporation (in the million dollar per yr range for three years). The investment the corp went with turned out to have dismal results all of which could have been avoided and they could have chosen to invest differently with a far better outcome, although in fairness, I don't blame them because it would have come with a greater risk. Now, four years later, they're left with an initiative that had very little impact and is unsustainable.

If the business you work for allows non-solicited grants for children's organizations pm me. Although the local non-profit I work for doesn't require large funding, the national office absolutely does. They're launching a new campaign shortly and I believe in it, would love to sell it.


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