# different expectations and standards for gender



## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

Just thought I would bring this up for discussion and see what people think....

I was just thinking about how different the standards can be for men and women when it comes to dating and attracting a partner. 

It just seems that men have to have this long string of attributes and factors from confidence to sense of humour to leadership qualities to being driven and ambitious and yet for women.... it's not quite the same. Women far more than men are obviously initially judged on looks more than anything else. Sure, no man wants a psycho or a manipulative ***** but those other requirements simply don't apply to women. When's the last time you heard a man being turned off a woman because she didn't have a great job or wasn't ambitious enough or had low confidence? If you're a decent looking guy it's often not enough, you need to also have a decent job, social status, good friends etc. If you're a beautiful woman, then it is often enough to attract a multitude of men! It might not be the men that they all want but the fact remains is that they have this power. 
Women are attracted by the ability of a man to provide for them and her potential children. Men do not look for a provider, if a woman happens to earn good money and has wealth then it's a bonus. 

End of the day, women pick and choose and men have to work harder to stand out from the rest. Biology itself naturally dictates that men are the pursuers and women the choosers. Doesn't seem fair but it's just how it is I guess.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I do agree that life isn't fair but it can be good.

It is what we make it to a large degree.

The mating game can have whatever standards and rules you like.

Bucking the "norm", whatever normal is, often plays out like walking against the current but can produce satisfaction.

I could have chosen a women mostly based on looks but that would not have appealed to me at all.

I ended up, very happily, with a short, older woman who isn't a model but is cute, has integrity and fidelity as well as a compassionate heart and great sense of humor.

I wasn't even going to get married or be in a committed relationship until I met her.

No one else was measuring up. 

In general, life isn't fair but you don't have to play it by everyone else's rules either.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Well, men and women are different, so it stands to reason that they may have (on a general basis) different expectations 

Most men I know don't place as much emphasis on a woman's career, whereas I have seen more women place a greater emphasis on a man's career. Now, maybe this is a carryover from when Men were consistently the breadwinner or viewed as the provider. This may be changing some as more women work and actually have better careers than their male counterpart, IDK.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

worriedwithfear said:


> Just thought I would bring this up for discussion and see what people think....
> 
> I was just thinking about how different the standards can be for men and women when it comes to dating and attracting a partner.
> 
> ...


It also doesn't seem fair that men in their 40,s 50's and 60's can attract much younger women and even get married to them. In some of those cases they leave the aging wife who has been with them when they had nothing. It usually does not work the other way.

Bottom line, life is not fair.


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

Life isn't fair, that's right. As I said in my OP, it is just how it is. 

"Most men I know don't place as much emphasis on a woman's career, whereas I have seen more women place a greater emphasis on a man's career. Now, maybe this is a carryover from when Men were consistently the breadwinner or viewed as the provider."

Yeah that's it you see.


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## growing_weary (Jul 23, 2017)

Initially both are judged on looks. Women need to be attractive, the right body type for the person they are with, a source of ego boost. Some men want a good cook, some want a woman who can clean. 

Women are still expected to do a lot around the home whether they work or not. They risk losing their earning potential during maternity leave if they value time spent with their children in formative years over ladder climbing. If they value the latter then they either play fertility roulette, or spend less time with the children, or decide to not have them at all. Having a partner with equal or greater earning potential takes one worry away barring unforeseen circumstances. 

There's a book His Needs Her Needs that list what some cis-gendered couples require in relationships. They're different for each, but I think that's ok. Guys are visual. Girls are visual. Then what lies beneath matters to both. I would never date someone long term, let alone marry, if they were just eye candy, because I know I'd have to get my intellectual stimulation elsewhere. 

Like sometimes goes to like. The qualities you list men should have are qualities which a man may appreciate though not initially seek out in a woman.

Also I think you're skewing the power dynamic. Men have more power than you're giving the credit for. It just seems like you're upset or resentful that it appears that some women have it easier. Those same women end up having a shelf life if that's all their relationship was based on. The minute they age out of the target demographic of a looks focused mate it's much harder to find someone their own age. It's not all peachy to be beautiful.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

My son is 28, working on a PHD in Physics & Nano science. He and his friends talk about what they want in a woman. Sure they want a good looking woman. But they want a well educated woman. A woman who can earn equally to them. And they want all sorts of attributes that have more to do with character, strength, caring, wanting a family, and so forth. 

The point is that every person has their own criteria for picking a mate. It's seldom as simple as the guy has to have a good career or the woman has to be very good looking. A lot more goes into it than that. People are seldom that one dementional.

When I was young I was very good looking (I'm 68 now). I can tell you that as a woman being a 10 is not enough to get any guy unless it's just for a one night stand. Men are individuals and have individual criteria. 

For example, one of my BILs told me that I would have a hard time finding a guy because despite my good looks I was too good looking, too smart, too well educated, had a big dog (apparently big dogs scare men, LOL), owned my own home and was too self-reliant. And according to him all that's not what most men want in a woman... 

You are implying things, as though all a woman needs is to be good looking. And all women want exactly the same thing. And all men want the same thing.

One thing to keep in mind is that things have changed a lot. Today 70% of married women work. 50% earn as much or more than their husbands.

IN the past the only way a woman had to gain any kind of financial security was to find a man who can provide it. Today women can provide that for themselves. So today women can pick men more based on things like character, looks, and love. 

I know a lot of younger people in their 20's and 30's. Both the males and females are picking based on career/income (financial stability), character, looks, and lots of other qualities... not some outdated stereo type.

I really wish that you would get into counseling and deal with your insecurities and lack of self esteem because it's hurting your ability to really live your life to it's fullest. The low esteem/fear seems like a mantel that you wear. Your posts are truly painful to read because of it. I fell badly for you.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

worriedwithfear said:


> Biology itself naturally dictates that men are the pursuers and women the choosers. Doesn't seem fair but it's just how it is I guess.


Well, it ain't fair that women have to undergo a painful and bothersome monthly cycle and carry around a developing human inside of us with all the sacrifices you have to make, the aches, pain and sickness that comes with it - all to go through the incredible pain of what amounts to passing a watermelon through a garden hose.

We all have our gender 'crosses' to bear.

But I'll let you in on a secret - being a 'pursuer' in the mating game is a hell of a lot easier than what I just described. And yes, you can quote me on that.


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> My son is 28, working on a PHD in Physics & Nano science. He and his friends talk about what they want in a woman. Sure they want a good looking woman. But they want a well educated woman. A woman who can earn equally to them. And they want all sorts of attributes that have more to do with character, strength, caring, wanting a family, and so forth.
> 
> The point is that every person has their own criteria for picking a mate. It's seldom as simple as the guy has to have a good career or the woman has to be very good looking. A lot more goes into it than that. People are seldom that one dementional.
> 
> ...



Sure I think what I've said in my OP is subjective to some extent but these generalisations (or outdated stereotypes as you called it) exist for a reason. That's because it's biology, there is truth to it. I'm not saying every woman needs to be beautiful or that every man needs to be a CEO in order to be attractive to the opposite sex. 

You say things have changed alot now but as a general principle, women are still attracted by the ability of a man to provide for them and her children. Is this not true? Do women not want security? This is why you do see very average looking guys but have a great job and security with beautiful women. Most men are raised and conditioned to be a provider. They do not seek out a woman based on her income. Would you be happy if your daughter brought home a man (of a certain age) who had great qualities but didn't have a great job and didn't know what he was doing with his life and was unsettled? Most men won't place as much emphasis on a woman's career, whereas women place a greater emphasis on a man's career. 

I think that's what I'm getting at; this idea that modern society preaches this message of equality but at the same time, it's not what I see in reality.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

worriedwithfear said:


> Sure I think what I've said in my OP is subjective to some extent but these generalisations (or outdated stereotypes as you called it) exist for a reason. That's because it's biology, there is truth to it. I'm not saying every woman needs to be beautiful or that every man needs to be a CEO in order to be attractive to the opposite sex.
> 
> You say things have changed alot now but as a general principle, women are still attracted by the ability of a man to provide for them and her children. Is this not true? Do women not want security? This is why you do see very average looking guys but have a great job and security with beautiful women. Most men are raised and conditioned to be a provider. They do not seek out a woman based on her income. Would you be happy if your daughter brought home a man (of a certain age) who had great qualities but didn't have a great job and didn't know what he was doing with his life and was unsettled? Most men won't place as much emphasis on a woman's career, whereas women place a greater emphasis on a man's career.
> 
> I think that's what I'm getting at; this idea that modern society preaches this message of equality but at the same time, it's not what I see in reality.


I walk in the local woods or else the park with my baby daughter every day.Sometimes my girlfriend walks with us but usually she runs a few laps while I am strolling along with bump.
I am hit on by women every week,they see the baby but it doesn't stop them.I probably appear to be either unemployed or else a single parent but it doesn't stop women from hitting on me.I think you are barking up the wrong tree with your hypothesis.Other than my car,these women have no way of knowing whether I have money,a career,or a house but it doesn't stop them from approaching me.
When men realise that women enjoy sex as much as men they will be better off.


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

Andy1001 said:


> I walk in the local woods or else the park with my baby daughter every day.Sometimes my girlfriend walks with us but usually she runs a few laps while I am strolling along with bump.
> I am hit on by women every week,they see the baby but it doesn't stop them.I probably appear to be either unemployed or else a single parent but it doesn't stop women from hitting on me.I think you are barking up the wrong tree with your hypothesis.Other than my car,these women have no way of knowing whether I have money,a career,or a house but it doesn't stop them from approaching me.
> When men realise that women enjoy sex as much as men they will be better off.


Hmm that's interesting but maybe they see the fact that you have a baby as evidence that you are a provider, perhaps? 
As obviously you would not be starting a family if you could not provide?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

worriedwithfear said:


> Hmm that's interesting but maybe they see the fact that you have a baby as evidence that you are a provider, perhaps?
> As obviously you would not be starting a family if you could not provide?


My point was I walk during the day when most men would be expected to be at work so as far as these women know I could be unemployed.
You seem to be looking for reasons that you are not doing so well on the dating front and as @EleGirl has suggested it may be a self esteem issue.
If you find women are not interested in you then it is time to act.You don't say what age you are but are you fit,are you clean,do you wear decent clothes (that fit properly).Where are you trying to meet women,is it in singles bars or nightclubs or do you use online dating or tinder.
Some men set the bar too high,they try to get the nines or tens when they may be fives themselves.It doesn't work like that at least initially.Try and get to know some women at least on a friendship level,maybe join meetup.com or take up a hobby.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Worried,
How many threads are you going to start just about your own personal insecurities? 

I get the impression you need help beyond what you can find on and internet thread.

Even as you structure it (which is overly simplistic and not altogether true) "men are pursuers and women are choosers. You are broken and fearful because you don't get to choose and that crushes you. But if we accept these traditional roles, consider the following: Women only get to choose from those that actually pursue them. So if a woman is not attractive enough to get pursued, she's got no chance at all. 

Sure, a less attractive man may get shot down. But even if he gets shot down, even a lot, he's still got hope because he can always keep pursuing, and there will always be some woman just dying to be pursued, even if by someone of less than average attractiveness. 

The bottom line is that, even under your traditional scenario, men have the most control, because connection has to start somewhere and men are the ones who initiate contact, and thus have a HUGE advantage here. Personally, I'd rather be the one hunting, than the one hoping I might one day attract a suitable mate. To lament this natural arrangement as "unfair" is week and a rejection of your very manhood.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

We get judged all the time. We're expected to be pretty and slim with big boobs and butts and take all the hair off our bodies and wear dresses and heels and make-up. 
My bf can go out in a hat and be presentable. 

Life isn't fair and both genders are working against standards and expectations. 

Women also need to be confident, funny. Have something special about them.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

It's not really financial security that women are drawn to, but instead it's guys that have their lives together (this isn't gender specific BTW). The reason that works is that people that are really engaged in life are successful, get what they want and radiate confidence, which is attractive to either genders. When people say go to the gym, be social, wear nice clothes, get involved in hobbies that are meaningful to you, etc. it is just part of the pathway to getting your life in order, which will make you attractive.


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

> We get judged all the time. We're expected to be pretty and slim with big boobs and butts and take all the hair off our bodies and wear dresses and heels and make-up.
> My bf can go out in a hat and be presentable.


That's what I've been saying, women are judged more so on looks, initially than anything else. Men not so much, we have to have other qualities and attributes that makes us stand out. 



> Women also need to be confident, funny. Have something special about them


Definitely not in the same way it's expected for a man though. A sense of humour and confidence are the two most seeked after attributes for a woman seeking a man. It's further down the list the other way round.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Fear the Worried, love the Wary.

Fear the Worried, the Crippled, the cloth draped, sinking Hulks.

Fear the Worried, love the Sure. Love the Dashers.

Fear the Worried, love the Smilers. Those with Twinkles in their eyes. And Sight that rarely looks down. Oft looks over the Horizon.

Fear the Worried, love those with large bumps on their heads. Bumps that testify. As One that dives headfirst into life.


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

Bananapeel said:


> It's not really financial security that women are drawn to, but instead it's guys that have their lives together (this isn't gender specific BTW). The reason that works is that people that are really engaged in life are successful, get what they want and radiate confidence, which is attractive to either genders. When people say go to the gym, be social, wear nice clothes, get involved in hobbies that are meaningful to you, etc. it is just part of the pathway to getting your life in order, which will make you attractive.



Yes I see your point and agree with this. I think it is being on a path where you are radiating that self assurance and confidence.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Yep, I want a passionate and confident man who is secure in himself. That means he has financial independence, a job he enjoys and a life that makes people want to be in it. 

He's also not the kind to just go for whatever is attractive despite any other qualities. 

Men with confidence will look for a high quality partner who is compatible with them. A woman needs to be a high quality partner to get a high quality partner. 

Money means very little. Some guys think they can attract a woman with flashy cars, money and high paid jobs. They aren't the women you want anyway. You want someone into you. There's a few guys even on here who used money and status to get a "hot girl" and are now miserable. Cause she wasn't into him. She wanted the lifestyle. 

Go for quality. Be someone of quality.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Depends a lot on the hat.
Maybe just to me.
Personally I'm quite happy that the genders differ. I'm happy that there is diversity in the population. How boring would it be if we were all the same. 
But, I did deliberately grow short to unburden the women around me from the expectation to wear heels.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

worriedwithfear said:


> That's what I've been saying, women are judged more so on looks, initially than anything else. Men not so much, we have to have other qualities and attributes that makes us stand out.
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely not in the same way it's expected for a man though. A sense of humour and confidence are the two most seeked after attributes for a woman seeking a man. It's further down the list the other way round.


Do you think I want to be picked by my looks? Looks fade, my personality is what I want them to be attracted to. 

Catching a man isn't my priority. Getting a quality partner who is compatible is.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> Depends a lot on the hat.
> Maybe just to me.
> Personally I'm quite happy that the genders differ. I'm happy that there is diversity in the population. How boring would it be if we were all the same.
> But, I did deliberately grow short to unburden the women around me from the expectation to wear heels.


That was considerate of you. 
Unless a guy has a "walking like penguin" fetish I don't look good in heels. I refuse to wear them. Or dresses. I dress work casual. Cause of work really. At home I'm braless and comfy pants.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> My son is 28, working on a PHD in Physics & Nano science. He and his friends talk about what they want in a woman. Sure they want a good looking woman. But they want a well educated woman. A woman who can earn equally to them. And they want all sorts of attributes that have more to do with character, strength, caring, wanting a family, and so forth.
> 
> The point is that every person has their own criteria for picking a mate. It's seldom as simple as the guy has to have a good career or the woman has to be very good looking. A lot more goes into it than that. People are seldom that one dementional.
> 
> ...


So you are hot, smart, educated and have your own home?

If I wasnt happily married and lived near you I'd let you be my sugar momma Elegirl. :grin2:


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

I do think it really depends on the type of woman we're talking about. For example check out this dialogue I noticed on another thread on this forum - 

"I'm tall, decent looking and personality, rarely drink, well travelled, culturally aware etc. and I believe I genuinely feel I have things to offer a good woman."

RESPONSE - This part here doesn't really matter.

"However the problem is at my age I feel quite lost and uncertain about my future. I haven't really had a career and finding work at the moment is not easy due to the lack of jobs in my field. becoming the man I could have been by now."

RESPONSE - Yes, most women will not date you because of this problem. A man that can't provide for himself is like a woman who is unattractive. 

"Maybe there are women out there who just want to be treated well and are looking for a trust worthy and kind man and aren't too bothered about his income or potential to provide."

RESPONSE - Yes there are. They are usually in there 50s or higher and are very lonely. Find yourself a cougar, they prefer younger men and they don't care so much about his financial situation. 
However if you want a woman around your age or younger to take care of you, it's not going to happen.


What do you think about this? In a way she proves my point though in affirming that women clearly need security and for the man to be the provider regardless of any other positive attributes, even though society will tell us otherwise.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Most women want a man who is at least independent and self sufficient and has a job. Most men want that in a woman as well. No one is looking to support someone else, we typically want an equal partner in life


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Dude... you have some serious issues. This is your THIRD thread about basically the same thing. You clearly have ZERO confidence and it radiates from you to the women you are trying to connect with. You were whining about being bald, now you are whining because women have EXPECTATIONS. Um, dont YOU have expectations of women?? Looks seem to be first on your list of requirements. I think you need to remove yourself from the dating world for a while, you are not going to find your Ms Right with your current state of mind. 

Oh and by the way, BALD is very much IN right now, and many many women LOVE bald men.


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

3Xnocharm said:


> Dude... you have some serious issues. This is your THIRD thread about basically the same thing. You clearly have ZERO confidence and it radiates from you to the women you are trying to connect with. You were whining about being bald, now you are whining because women have EXPECTATIONS.


There definitely seems to be a misunderstanding so far on these threads. I am not complaining or whining but rather simply stating things how I see it. Earlier I stated I was bald and felt that it impacted on my dating prospects as this can be a worry for plenty of bald guys. I'm simply asking what other people think about this. Now, I am doing the same here. Just initiating discussion on a topic I'm interested in.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

You think women just have to be "decent looking" to get picked. Would you pick a woman just because she was decent looking?


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

I must be an abnormal man then, I don't care how good looking a woman is, if she isn't bringing something to the table I have little interest. Honestly that goes for about everyone in my life, I have no use for superficial people.


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> You think women just have to be "decent looking" to get picked. Would you pick a woman just because she was decent looking?


I'm just saying here that it's about the initial attraction. If you don't find someone physically attractive, you're not going to be interested regardless of all the other traits that person may have. There needs to be a physical attraction at least to start with.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

worriedwithfear said:


> I'm just saying here that it's about the initial attraction. If you don't find someone physically attractive, you're not going to be interested regardless of all the other traits that person may have. There needs to be a physical attraction at least to start with.


OK but both genders need to have that.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I agree with @3Xnocharm.

Your username says it all about you. No matter how gorgeous or rich you were I would never find you attractive because of your massive lack of confidence. And I hate c0cky men...but zero self confidence is SO much worse. You need to work on yourself.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

worriedwithfear said:


> What do you think about this? In a way she proves my point though in affirming that women clearly need security and for the man to be the provider regardless of any other positive attributes, even though society will tell us otherwise.


I think you're grasping at straws, looking for any excuse you can to give yourself an out on changing what actually matters. You're trying to fight your insecurity by developing a series of demeaning views about an entire gender to provide an explanation you like more than you just not having your **** together. You're mistaking cultural/socio-economic remnants with how a gender is wired. Women like eye candy. Women like sex. Women like to feel fulfilled by their lives, through career, family, friendships, and hobbies. 

If I found myself on the dating scene again, you can bet that while looks will be important (as I imagine it would be to any future partner), they're not even close to being enough. Compatibility would be number one with a bullet. Not compatibility with some imagined ideal of what I could be, but compatibility with *who I am*. Their career would matter. Their financial status would matter. Their ability to be happy single. I would want someone who didn't ever find themselves needing me to be happy, but instead just find that I add to their happiness. Because while I still hold to a very high standard of what romantic love should be, I've also learned a great deal about how all of these other things affect a couple's ability to maintain that romantic love.

If you have lower standards than the women you are pursuing, hunting on looks while ignoring the rest and hoping they'll do the reverse for you, finding some secret qualities you have hidden under all that insecurity and anger, then up your standards and learn to be a version of you that you can like.


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Most women want a man who is at least independent and self sufficient and has a job. Most men want that in a woman as well. No one is looking to support someone else, we typically want an equal partner in life


This is where I slightly disagree though. I think there is still more expected from a man. I'm not necessarily saying that a woman is looking for a man to support her for everything, financially and otherwise but a man is expected far more to have his **** together than a woman.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

worriedwithfear said:


> There definitely seems to be a misunderstanding so far on these threads. I am not complaining or whining but rather simply stating things how I see it. Earlier I stated I was bald and felt that it impacted on my dating prospects as this can be a worry for plenty of bald guys. I'm simply asking what other people think about this. Now, I am doing the same here. Just initiating discussion on a topic I'm interested in.


If you get your life in order, all of this will change and consequently so will your perspective on dating. You'll have tons of prospects that will let you know they are interested in you, and you'll get to pick which of them you want to date. Likewise, if you don't get your life in order you are going to have a hard time. It's really not rocket science. 

When I got divorced I had some natural insecurities and figured it was going to be hard to find a good woman. However, I found the complete opposite to be true. Single women I meet want to date me and my female friends want to set me up with their single girl friends. The only thing that made that change happen was me getting my life in order, regaining my focus, and radiating success and confidence. FYI, I'm not perfect but it really doesn't bother me. I'm happy with myself and little things don't diminish me. Don't let your insecurities diminish you.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

worriedwithfear said:


> This is where I slightly disagree though. I think there is still more expected from a man. I'm not necessarily saying that a woman is looking for a man to support her for everything, financially and otherwise but a man is expected far more to have his **** together than a woman.


BS! If a woman doesn't have her **** together then she's just a FWB and not a relationship.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

worriedwithfear said:


> This is where I slightly disagree though. I think there is still more expected from a man. I'm not necessarily saying that a woman is looking for a man to support her for everything, financially and otherwise but a man is expected far more to have his **** together than a woman.


People get to expect whatever they want. If you want a woman with her sh*t together then don't date ones who don't. 

Some men having lower standards doesn't mean it's easier for women. 
Some women have terrible low standards too. 

Many women are expected to not just work and support themselves but also be good homemakers, cooks and cleaners. A lot of women feel like we have to be superwomen and do it all.


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

Bananapeel said:


> BS! If a woman doesn't have her **** together then she's just a FWB and not a relationship.


As I said though most men won't place as much emphasis on a woman's career or whether they have a good income, a boat, a house etc. whereas women do this alot of the time, hence why they can be super picky, so often. They are more interested in men who are more established and secure. All I'm saying is that the flip side the same rules don't apply AS MUCH. If a woman is beautiful, graceful, great personality, great cook/cleaner etc. then it ain't going to matter too much that she doesn't have a great job or isn't that established in life.

http://globalnews.ca/news/3550896/t...e-reason-they-have-much-higher-suicide-rates/


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> People get to expect whatever they want. If you want a woman with her sh*t together then don't date ones who don't.


That's just it, I couldn't care less if a woman who doesn't have her sh*t together. It's not one of the things I'm looking for. Of course it varies for each person, I get that.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

worriedwithfear said:


> As I said though most men won't place as much emphasis on a woman's career or whether they have a good income, a boat, a house etc. whereas women do this alot of the time, hence why they can be super picky, so often. They are more interested in men who are more established and secure. All I'm saying is that the flip side the same rules don't apply AS MUCH. If a woman is beautiful, graceful, great personality, great cook/cleaner etc. then it ain't going to matter too much that she doesn't have a great job or isn't that established in life.
> 
> The pressure on men to be providers is one reason they have much higher suicide rates - National | Globalnews.ca


These are just different standards, different rules. No better or worse. A woman having to look good, be graceful, have a good personality, great cook and cleaner... I'd rather have a good job TBH. Why is "job" so much of a higher expectation than those are?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

worriedwithfear said:


> This is where I slightly disagree though. I think there is still more expected from a man. I'm not necessarily saying that a woman is looking for a man to support her for everything, financially and otherwise but a man is expected far more to have his **** together than a woman.


If you're finding this to be true, then perhaps there's a problem with your standards for the women you date? I mean, if you care about women having their stuff together, then find and date women who do. If you're solely choosing women for their looks, then it seems odd to feel victimized to discover that those women - who you are choosing for looks alone - don't have their stuff together. If your _only_ criteria is appearance, then you can't be too choosy about other qualities. But be warned that women with their stuff together will mostly want to have relationships with men who have their stuff together as well.

Also, both sexes really should find people they're attracted to, sexually, to form romantic relationships with. For most people, however, looks are not going to be the only - or even, perhaps, the most important - factor in choosing a long-term partner. The hottest person in the world can make themselves unattractive by being stupid, mean, condescending, rude, slovenly, unfaithful, etc.. And it's entirely possible to share great sexual chemistry/attraction with someone who isn't, objectively, the hottest person in the room. It's also possible to be sexually attracted to someone with whom you are otherwise incompatible. The trick, at least if you're looking for a long-term relationship, is to find someone with the right _combination_ of sexual attractiveness (which may or may not be looks-based) and compatibility.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

worriedwithfear said:


> That's just it, I couldn't care less if a woman who doesn't have her sh*t together. It's not one of the things I'm looking for. Of course it varies for each person, I get that.


Um... WHY? Why would you want a partner who doesnt have their sh!t together?? Someone going through a rough patch and working through it is one thing, but someone who doesnt have it together is NOT going to be a valuable partner. 

Unless of course she's hot, right?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Women are judged far more on looks, so unless you are slim, pretty, have big boobs and long hair, you are more or less rejected immediately. 

Also when I was on Christian dating sites in my late 40's there were about 3 women for every man, that is a massive disadvantage for women. Especially if you are not slim, pretty etc etc


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Women are judged far more on looks, so unless you are slim, pretty, have big boobs and long hair, you are more or less rejected immediately.


Finally someone gets it!! This is one of the key things I've been trying to say. Initially this what happens, certainly when it comes to online dating.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

worriedwithfear said:


> Finally someone gets it!! This is one of the key things I've been trying to say. Initially this what happens, certainly when it comes to online dating.


And this is unfair to men.... how exactly?


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

3Xnocharm said:


> Um... WHY? Why would you want a partner who doesnt have their sh!t together?? Someone going through a rough patch and working through it is one thing, but someone who doesnt have it together is NOT going to be a valuable partner.
> 
> Unless of course she's hot, right?


It depends on what "having their sh!t together" constitutes and maybe I didn't elaborate enough. I'm talking about former; someone is still trying to work things out. I'm not going to reject someone just because they may be struggling to work out what they are doing and where they are going in life. No-one has life worked out as such. It's a journey, right? So I just want to share my life with that person as we make that journey together. Wow, that sounded a bit cringe lol but you know what I mean. What if that person has circumstances beyond their control where they've ended up in a rubbish situation? People lose jobs, careers, businesses and have to change direction which can lead to not knowing where they're going in life. However, I guess you're implying the kind of person who is just a bum and not bothered about changing his or her dire situation. 

It's funny how you're still making assumptions on what I look for in a woman when I haven't made a single comment on what I look for in a woman but that's for another thread which I'm sure you'll all look forward to!


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

worriedwithfear said:


> It's funny how you're still making assumptions on what I look for in a woman when I haven't made a single comment on what I look for in a woman but that's for another thread which I'm sure you'll all look forward to!


Not really.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Would you date a woman like you? Who thinks dating is unfair, low confidence, low self esteem? 

Be the kind of person you'd want to date and you attract that kind of person more often


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> Not really.


I was being sarcastic...


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

worriedwithfear said:


> That's just it, I couldn't care less if a woman who doesn't have her sh*t together. It's not one of the things I'm looking for. Of course it varies for each person, I get that.


You are in for a life time of suck then. There is not much worse than having a spouse who you have to treat as a child because they can't get their **** together!


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

Cooper said:


> You are in for a life time of suck then. There is not much worse than having a spouse who you have to treat as a child because they can't get their **** together!


Don't think you read my full response so I'll copy and paste it for you....

It depends on what "having their sh!t together" constitutes and maybe I didn't elaborate enough. I'm talking about former; someone is still trying to work things out. I'm not going to reject someone just because they may be struggling to work out what they are doing and where they are going in life. No-one has life worked out as such. It's a journey, right? So I just want to share my life with that person as we make that journey together. Wow, that sounded a bit cringe lol but you know what I mean. What if that person has circumstances beyond their control where they've ended up in a rubbish situation? People lose jobs, careers, businesses and have to change direction which can lead to not knowing where they're going in life. 
However, I guess you're implying the kind of person who is just a bum and not bothered about changing his or her dire situation and refuses to do anything themselves and expects to be taken care of like a child...then yes, of course no-one wants that!


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

You seem upset that men need a job to attract a woman and women only need to be "pretty" to attract a man... ? This is your complaint?


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Do you have a good relationship with your mother, sisters (if you have them) etc?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Okay, this has got to be said....

I wouldn't want to be with any woman who would gladly accept an unemployed man lacking in self sufficiency. I can't possibly imagine about complaining about women expecting a mate to be productive! Holy crap, if women all had low standards, that would be fantastically depressing... and not at all good for the human race!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

worriedwithfear said:


> Finally someone gets it!! This is one of the key things I've been trying to say. Initially this what happens, certainly when it comes to online dating.


Actually, when I contacted my now husband on line, he had no photo at all on his profile. He had tried to put one on but it didn't let him. So we sent each other quite a few messages before I had a clue what he looked like. Neither of us was specifically each others usual physical 'type', but we both felt that very strong connection, fell in love, and were married 9 months later.


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Actually, when I contacted my now husband on line, he had no photo at all on his profile. He had tried to put one on but it didn't let him. So we sent each other quite a few messages before I had a clue what he looked like. Neither of us was specifically each others usual physical 'type', but we both felt that very strong connection, fell in love, and were married 9 months later.


That's great. It's always nice when it happens like that. How long was it until you met each other in person?


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

It's almost as if people have deeper psychological and biological drives that lead them to want what they want, that society can't reprogram them to be happy with things they don't want, and fairness has absolutely nothing to do with any of it.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Actually, when I contacted my now husband on line, he had no photo at all on his profile. He had tried to put one on but it didn't let him. So we sent each other quite a few messages before I had a clue what he looked like. Neither of us was specifically each others usual physical 'type', but we both felt that very strong connection, fell in love, and were married 9 months later.


The whole "type" thing is overrated. 

In my dating days, I had a thing for redheads. Failing that, a nice dark brunette was a close second. I also had a thing for green eyes, which are almost as rare as unicorns, so I was also enamored by deep, dark brown eyes. High wide cheekbones and full lips were the approved facial features. I appreciated a woman with a little meat on her bones. I really appreciated adventurous and aggressive and wanted someone who was equally likely to strap on a pair of skis and jump off a 10 ft cornice onto a forty degree, rock strewn ski piste. 

My wife? Very nondescript light brown hair. Bluest of eyes. Slender from top to bottom and modestly endowed. Narrow face and thin lips. Totally risk averse and uncomfortable with intense experiences. We're together 31 years now and my heart still skips a beat almost every time I look at her. 

My wife fancied Richard Gere. While I'm generally considered handsome, it's in a totally different way from Richard Gere (I have been likened to Robert Urich and Brendan Frasier). I know my wife digs me even if I look nothing like Richard Gere.

So I don't have a whole lot of empathy for people who obsess about whether or not they're going to be somebody's type. There is as yet a scientifically unexplainable element of sexual chemistry that defies preconceived preferences.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

worriedwithfear said:


> I was being sarcastic...


Dude I think by now anyone can guess your "type".It is any woman who is prepared to put up with your crap.
You need to get laid.


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

Andy1001 said:


> Dude I think by now anyone can guess your "type".It is any woman who is prepared to put up with your crap.
> You need to get laid.



Well I'm not perfect but I'm trying. We all have crap and take that baggage into each relationship. So yes I would expect someone I'm with to accept me as I am, flaws and everything and vice versa.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Anytime in my life that I was attracted to a woman, it was just a vibe that she gave off that can't necessarily be explained or helped. I suppose what I find attractive is all related to personality. 

As someone stated before, nobody wants a psycho or a bum. I've always found women who seem happy, bubbly, sweet, and fiminin to be very attractive. 

If I'm attracted to the personality, I don't really care about her job or whether she reads Shakespeare. Some people make choosing a mate seem like a job interview, but it never has been for me. 

As I stated in another thread, it may not count for much because I'm divorced, but when I met my x wife, she and her family were poor as church mice, and it showed. 
I was in college planning a career. She was not in college and had no plans to be. I had dated a few college girls, but I loved how she was so down to earth and sweet. Career plans and how much stuff a woman had holds no attraction for me. 

Although it ended in divorce, it really had nothing to do with that, and we did have several good years together.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

worriedwithfear said:


> Well I'm not perfect but I'm trying. We all have crap and take that baggage into each relationship. So yes I would expect someone I'm with to accept me as I am, flaws and everything and vice versa.


But a woman or relationship really isn't going to 'fix' your insecurities. No matter who she is, you'll likely still have these issues. We all have issues, to different degrees, but you can't expect women to fix your issues. Good sex with hot women won't fix your issues. We need to work on accepting ourselves, flaws and all, before expecting someone else to accept them. It seems like you don't really like who you are, wish you were someone else, because then...you'd be getting all the different kinds of women you want. Seeking women to validate you will never make you happy. Sure we all want affirmation, but if we really don't like who we are, no amount of good sex, love and affection from someone else will change that. 

I think you have to learn to like who you are, and a lot of things will change for you. You don't need to settle, you have only convinced yourself of this because you don't feel good about yourself.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

worriedwithfear said:


> If you don't find someone physically attractive, you're not going to be interested regardless of all the other traits that person may have. There needs to be a physical attraction at least to start with.


The thing is, "physically attractive" is such a subjective term. What one person finds "attractive" another one won't. 

I sometimes wonder when someone bombards the forum with multiple threads in such a short time ... just what is the impetus here? 

Are you an inquiring mind who wants to know? 

P.S. - Ever considered a wig/toupee or a hair transplant (if that's a viable option)?


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

*Deidre* said:


> But a woman or relationship really isn't going to 'fix' your insecurities. No matter who she is, you'll likely still have these issues. We all have issues, to different degrees, but you can't expect women to fix your issues. Good sex with hot women won't fix your issues. We need to work on accepting ourselves, flaws and all, before expecting someone else to accept them. It seems like you don't really like who you are, wish you were someone else, because then...you'd be getting all the different kinds of women you want. Seeking women to validate you will never make you happy. Sure we all want affirmation, but if we really don't like who we are, no amount of good sex, love and affection from someone else will change that.
> 
> I think you have to learn to like who you are, and a lot of things will change for you. You don't need to settle, you have only convinced yourself of this because you don't feel good about yourself.


I know a woman isn't going to "fix" my insecurities. I never said that or implied that, as I said I'm not perfect but I'm trying, the trying referring to improving myself and my outlook. This is a life long journey however and I have already started.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

worriedwithfear said:


> I know a woman isn't going to "fix" my insecurities. I never said that or implied that, as I said I'm not perfect but I'm trying, the trying referring to improving myself and my outlook. This is a life long journey however and I have already started.


You have implied it, because you're focused on why women don't like you. Or certain women don't like you. But, it's good if you're trying to improve your outlook. Because your attitude change will show in how you see yourself and then, how others see you. True, not all women like bald guys, but a lot do. You're in luck, that's a hot look right now, with a beard, especially. lol


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

worriedwithfear said:


> That's great. It's always nice when it happens like that. How long was it until you met each other in person?


Only 4 days. We emailed loads, spoke on the phone after 2 days, and met after 4. He only lived 40 mins drive away from me. It also turned out that he knew the estate I lived on as his ex in laws lived there so he had been there many times! I dont see the point in waiting ages till you meet, if you sense a good connection. 
Having said that, I had been on Christian dating sites for 2 years before we met. He, however, had only just come on. There are far more women than men on Christian dating sites, especially when you get to your 40's and above. We were both in our late 40's by then.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

worriedwithfear said:


> Just thought I would bring this up for discussion and see what people think....
> 
> I was just thinking about how different the standards can be for men and women when it comes to dating and attracting a partner.
> 
> ...


It does not matter though.

I am at an age now, where I am still attractive to many women including young and old, but I do not have to be in a relationship.

What you describe can harm individual men, if they feel the need to measure up and get a woman at a level. It also hurts women, as the average man becomes far below average in their eyes. 

Or, be happy without and none of that matters. 

No what you want, if you get it, great. If you do not, fine and no settling for anything else.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

worriedwithfear said:


> Life isn't fair, that's right. As I said in my OP, it is just how it is.
> 
> "Most men I know don't place as much emphasis on a woman's career, whereas I have seen more women place a greater emphasis on a man's career. Now, maybe this is a carryover from when Men were consistently the breadwinner or viewed as the provider."
> 
> Yeah that's it you see.


Well you also have to consider that women are the ones who have to get pregnant and bear children. If men could do that, great! As a result, they take career breaks, end up with most of the childcare and house hold responsibilities. Therefore it is essential that their partner can hold down a solid job and provide an income during those stages of family life. What would a woman need a man for if she does everything herself, as a sperm donor? Better just go to the sperm bank. You make it sound like men get a raw deal, what a load of codswallop, the amount of responsibility most working women carry is phenomenal, compared to their partners who go to work, play golf and come home. Many women go to work, get kids ready for school, cook, taxi, do bills, clean house, etc etc with no time for themselves. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about something without actually saying it.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

I actually see what op is saying in his original post; I've heard men discuss it before. It's not like he's the first guy to ever mention it. 

I don't know too many men who care what kind of a job a woman has, how big her house is, or whether she has a college degree. It's just a click with men. I think men do like a woman they can label as a "normal" personality; they don't want a psycho. 

Hasn't there been male royalty in the world who fell in love with and married an "average" woman, and it didn't sit well with the family, but the guy didn't care?

If a guy is attracted to a woman and they click, there's usually not a long list of other stuff for most guys I know.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I haven't read through the responses but I just wanted to say this... I would much rather have a guy judge me on my personality, career etc then my looks. You can't help your looks, your born a certain way that can't be changed and plus it's superficial and not THAT important. Your job, career, personality, friends etc are things that you do and reflect a whole lot more about a person than what they look like. 

What we DO reflect who we are and that's obviously more important than what we look like.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Being attracted to someone has to be a given. No one is romantically involved with someone they aren't attracted too usually. So of course the person has to bring more to the table other than looks.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

From my experience, people who are happy on the inside, and confident and full of life, and moral live in a certain way that they have careers, good personalities, good friends, and they are nice to people. 
People who feel bad inside, depressed, self conscious, unhappy, no drive, full of self
Pity typically don't "thrive" in the real world. They don't have jobs, friends, watch tv or play video games 15 hours a day. These type of people are usually very self centered, all wrapped up in the negative of how they feel, they are like Eeyore from whatever bear show that is. They are always about them, and how they feel, and how they aren't good enough and how they live reflects that. 
So to me, a man without a career, friends, etc. is a red flag that there are huge inner issues.


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## musicftw07 (Jun 23, 2016)

I broke up with a woman because she was a loser and wasn't going anywhere in life.

We had lots of fun together, and good sex. She had her share of issues, but was a very nice lady. However, when she graduated from RN school but didn't take any steps to actually get a job and then a couple months later tell me she needs to move in with me because her utilities got shut off...

Yeah. I dumped her and said it's not my job to rescue her.

My girlfriend now of 1.5 years makes more money than I do (and I make a good middle class wage), has a house, a car, takes care of her little ones, is great at her career, college educated, AND sexy as hell.

You'll notice that sexy was last on that list.

I absolutely hold women to the same standards to which women hold men. Because of it, I found the woman I'm going marry someday.

In a nutshell, men in the aggregate need to up their standards and not just go for looks, fun, and sex. They can be part of the list, but they can't be the only items on the list.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

worriedwithfear said:


> Sure I think what I've said in my OP is subjective to some extent but these generalisations (or outdated stereotypes as you called it) exist for a reason. That's because it's biology, there is truth to it. I'm not saying every woman needs to be beautiful or that every man needs to be a CEO in order to be attractive to the opposite sex.
> 
> You say things have changed alot now but as a general principle, women are still attracted by the ability of a man to provide for them and her children. Is this not true? Do women not want security? This is why you do see very average looking guys but have a great job and security with beautiful women. Most men are raised and conditioned to be a provider. They do not seek out a woman based on her income. Would you be happy if your daughter brought home a man (of a certain age) who had great qualities but didn't have a great job and didn't know what he was doing with his life and was unsettled? Most men won't place as much emphasis on a woman's career, whereas women place a greater emphasis on a man's career.
> 
> I think that's what I'm getting at; this idea that modern society preaches this message of equality but at the same time, it's not what I see in reality.


I would not be happy if my daughter brought home a man who had no direction in life. I would also not be happy if my son brought home a woman who as similar. 

However, if either of them brought home someone who did not earn a lot, but who had a purpose in life, a drive, and was engaged in life.... what they earned would not be so important. They can figure that out together. 

For example if my daughter married a guy who was the best SAH dad, and she wanted to be the breadwinner, more power to them. Because a very engaged SAH parent is very engaged in life and brings a lot to the family.

You are apparently here to spread red pill nonsense. It stuff made up by bitter, little minded men who need an excuse for their own failures.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

aine said:


> It also doesn't seem fair that men in their 40,s 50's and 60's can attract much younger women and even get married to them. In some of those cases they leave the aging wife who has been with them when they had nothing. It usually does not work the other way.
> 
> Bottom line, life is not fair.


How about women who marry for safety but get knoced up by the bad boy and and let the safe husband raise it?

Life is not fair


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> I would not be happy if my daughter brought home a man who had no direction in life. I would also not be happy if my son brought home a woman who as similar.
> 
> However, if either of them brought home someone who did not earn a lot, but who had a purpose in life, a drive, and was engaged in life.... what they earned would not be so important. They can figure that out together.
> 
> ...


Sounds like double talk to me.

Please define a purpose in life. What if his porpose was saving whales and he spent all his free time working on his purpose ....because lets face it thats his purpose. 


Purpose in life is a fallacy unless its earning enough money to raise a family

You need a balance in life not just a purpose.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I don't give a crap how much he makes. I want passion in his job. Yes I have dated men who made min.wage incomes because they loved what they did and were thrifty enough to not need expensive things. 

I make enough money for me. I don't need his.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I don't give a crap how much he makes. I want passion in his job. Yes I have dated men who made min.wage incomes because they loved what they did and were thrifty enough to not need expensive things.
> 
> I make enough money for me. I don't need his.


I must say that this is something that is different with me. I have been on this forum for several years, and I have often read that women are attracted to men who are "passionate" about something, such as their job. 

I can honestly say that whether or not a woman is passionate about her job is not a turn on to me. Perhaps I am defining passionate differently than what others have in mind, but it does nothing for me. 

Often times, if someone is passionate about something, that is where the person wants to spend a lot of their time and energy, which often works to get in the way of a relationship. They probably live and breath it, and they probably talk about it until it drives others crazy. 

I always considered passionate a strong word. In today's world, Is it really just one of those overused words like "amazing?" Is passionate just another way of saying someone likes something as opposed to disliking it?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

My bf is passionate about his job. He tells me about it, likes what he does, gets excited for jobs coming up, and work is a good place for him to be. He still likes being home too 

I find some men who don't enjoy their job are more stressed, tired and have negative feelings brought home with them from work. 

Maybe passion is too strong but he must enjoy and like his job.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I would not be happy if my daughter brought home a man who had no direction in life. I would also not be happy if my son brought home a woman who as similar.
> 
> However, if either of them brought home someone who did not earn a lot, but who had a purpose in life, a drive, and was engaged in life.... what they earned would not be so important. They can figure that out together.
> 
> ...


The red pill nonsense is nonsense to me too. (sort of http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...pillers-have-not-actually-taken-red-pill.html) .

One thing that give Red Pillers credibility is that their experiences are denied rather than discussed or explained. My personal impression is that a man's income is hugely important to a large number of women in terms of their suitability as a partner. But, there are reasons for that, not least a society in which a woman's worth is still judged by the credibility of her man. The red pillers ignore this social pressure on women focus solely on their own experience leading them to conclude women are mean and just care about money.


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