# I cheated



## Tess of the Dauberville

As the title says I am a cheater, I never thought I would say those words, let alone on a forum like this. Two and a half years ago the affair was found out and my husband decided he would give us a chance but to do that would need to divorce me and did so. We continued to live together and remarried six months ago. I was given a lot of chances to put things right between us. I am only now beginning to look objectively at what happened as I have felt so guilty but this has been very selfish and not helped my husband. It has taken a lot of time and probing to admit to myself what a bad person I was and still have the capacity to be. However I feel like I am now the biggest advocate of not cheating. I have read Professor Glass's Not Just Friends and taken a lot from it. The affair lasted two and a half years and I was convinced I loved the other man, I was totally blind to his character despite knowing he was a womaniser and think I convinced myself he was a good guy to make it seem better in my mind. I have now lost my husband as he has not been helped enough by me to get over it due to how I have handled it. I have felt enormous guilt and remorse and am totally devastated by the hurt I have caused him and my family. It has been the biggest mistake if you can call it that of my life. At first I lied to avoid the truth coming out because I didn't want to admit everything I'd done. The affair was discovered because I told my husband I'd been in love with somebody
I know now I started the affair as a stepping stone out of the marriage which was struggling but then became stuck in it because it was an escape. It was not exciting or glamorous and I demeaned myself for sex doing things with this man I did not do for my husband to try to steal him away from the girlfriend he had, I found this a challenge. It was when I knew it was going nowhere that I admitted I had been 'in love' with someone to my husband. I was amazed he gave me a chance and had expected him to throw me out. I think I did that so I would never need to admit the full extent of the affair. At this stage after my husband gave me a chance the OM rang me and I began seeing him again. It was found out and eventually the full extent was discovered and my husband went into shock and was devastated. He confronted the other man and I never contacted the guy again. Needless to say the OM was a complete tosser and I would not even acknowledge him if I passed him in the street, I have no feelings either way for him and will not get angry about him because that's what he does as a hobby. I am however angry at myself for ruining my life with my husband. When the affair finished i realised what I should always have known about my husband that he was a wonderful man and that I wanted to put things right. I found out that the arguments I had blamed on my husband and was so sick of were caused by my arrogance and not him, I had picked on him for years and not been a nice person to live with for him and my children and he had been a saint. I can say I started behaving better as I did not want to be that person any more but I have been unable to do some of the things my husband said were vital to save the marriage. We attended marriage therapy and thought we could manage ourselves, everything that had happened in the affair was discussed as my husband wanted to know. All the sordid details about sex were found out.
Our arguments were horrible but I felt totally able to take what he said to me because of what I did. I felt very dirty and unclean about what I did and found it hard to feel sexy for him as much as he wanted me to. I just wanted to hide from the questions and lie to get out of admitting what I'd done. This hurt him even more.
Now I am about to be seperated as he has found his anger too much to allow him to get on with his life with me. He says he is getting therapy for this and if he can get to terms with it or control it he will return. I want him back and am waiting for him. We have a good relationship and will remain friends. 
I am now going to sleep in the same bed as my husband for the last night, we shall hug and in the morning he will leave. What a waste for two people that still love each other very much.


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## ConanHub

You should write a book. Could help people. Most of what you wrote is pretty standard from cheater script to the reactions of a BS.

Do you think if you had studied infidelity before becoming someone you hate, you might have avoided it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

How old are the two of you? How long have you been married? Do you have any children?


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## Roselyn

You cheated on your husband twice with the same man. Two and a half years of extramarital relationship with another man is a very long time. I am indeed amazed that your husband gave you a second chance. You violated his trust again. 

Let him go and let him heal. He is deserving of his peace of mind, no matter what his decision will be for his future.


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## thummper

White Rose;love I can say I started behaving better as [B said:


> I did not want to be that person any more but I have been unable to do some of the things my husband said were vital to save the marriage.[/B] We attended marriage therapy and thought we could manage ourselves, everything that had happened in the affair was discussed as my husband wanted to know. All the sordid details about sex were found out.
> Our arguments were horrible but I felt totally able to take what he said to me because of what I did. I felt very dirty and unclean about what I did and found it hard to feel sexy for him as much as he wanted me to. I just wanted to hide from the questions and lie to get out of admitting what I'd done. This hurt him even more.
> Now I am about to be seperated as he has found his anger too much to allow him to get on with his life with me. He says he is getting therapy for this and if he can get to terms with it or control it he will return. I want him back and am waiting for him. We have a good relationship and will remain friends.
> I am now going to sleep in the same bed as my husband for the last night, we shall hug and in the morning he will leave. What a waste for two people that still love each other very much.


What were some of the things that you were unable to do for him and why couldn't you do them?


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## 3putt

ConanHub said:


> You should write a book. Could help people. Most of what you wrote is pretty standard from cheater script to the reactions of a BS.
> 
> *Do you think if you had studied infidelity before becoming someone you hate, you might have avoided it?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wonder where that question came from?


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## ConanHub

I sometimes wonder how many would avoid cheating if they were well studied in infidelity. Most would say they hated cheaters before becoming one. Truly remorseful Ws also usually look back at who they were when cheating and hate what they see.

OP sounds remorseful and filled with self hate for what she did. Not an unhealthy reaction, BTW.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3putt

ConanHub said:


> I sometimes wonder how many would avoid cheating if they were well studied in infidelity. Most would say they hated cheaters before becoming one. Truly remorseful Ws also usually look back at who they were when cheating and hate what they see.
> 
> OP sounds remorseful and filled with self hate for what she did. Not an unhealthy reaction, BTW.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was thinking in terms of the "Anyone can have an affair" thread. Seemed like that question could've have been asked to make a 'minor' point there. A point I happen to agree with, BTW.


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## ConanHub

I am trying to forget that thread. Gave me a headache.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

The problem is that this is how it might work: "Whilst you are an evil, wicked cheater, I have met my soulmate. Of course my spouse will be hurt but can't he/she be happy, happy, happy for me? Whee! Oh, look! Rainbow cakes and Unicorn milk milkshakes for dinner!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain

thummper said:


> What were some of the things that you were unable to do for him and why couldn't you do them?


that would be my question. 

what couldnt you do? i mean, if it would allow him to shelve his anger and actually come back to you and reconcile, why wont you do it?


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## MattMatt

As'laDain said:


> that would be my question.
> 
> what couldnt you do? i mean, if it would allow him to shelve his anger and actually come back to you and reconcile, why wont you do it?


If I was in the position of having a wife who did sexual things for a lover thst she wouldn't do for me... would I want her to do them for me, afterwards?

I am not sure I would.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3putt

MattMatt said:


> If I was in the position of having a wife who did sexual things for a lover thst she wouldn't do for me... would I want her to do them for me, afterwards?
> 
> I am not sure I would.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No way I would, especially if had tried to introduce these things to her- to no avail, of course -and then she just freely gives it up to a marriage/home wrecking POS??

What man could ever get over something like that?


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## thatbpguy

ConanHub said:


> I am trying to forget that thread. Gave me a headache.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As is this one.


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## SevenYears

The thing is that I think cheaters will twist things in their mind so that they can believe they are a good person (I'm not saying you are evil though). You re-wrote the marriage to make it seem like your BS was a bad husband so that you could pretend that you were the victim. And now that you've found out that you can't run off to the sunset with OM you've went back to your BS. Because who wants to be alone with no one giving them all the things you get from a relationship. This will be why you are upset. But again you need to twist things in your mind to make it seem like you are a good person so you'll make yourself believe that you feel bad for hurting them. But like I said this isn't why you are upset. You are upset because you think you may end up all alone.

I know some people may disagree with me but everyone knows that the WS will trick themselves in to thinking the marriage is bad so that they don't have to see what kind of person they are. So why wouldn't they do the same thing when things don't work out with the OM/OW and they decide to go back to the betrayed spouse. It's better to think that than to admit they are again being selfish and only thinking of themselves. They don't want to be alone.


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## SevenYears

I know this looks like an attack at you. There is no other way I can think of wording it. I just think its best for you to really try to understand why you are upset. Is it really because you upset your husband. Remember it didn't affect you when you thought you could end up with the OM. Or is it because you are afraid of being alone.


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## As'laDain

MattMatt said:


> If I was in the position of having a wife who did sexual things for a lover thst she wouldn't do for me... would I want her to do them for me, afterwards?
> 
> I am not sure I would.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i thought about that too, but i ask because we have no idea if thats what it is. it could have been something as simple as complete transparency. 

OP needs to clarify that.


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## MattMatt

As'laDain said:


> i thought about that too, but i ask because we have no idea if thats what it is. it could have been something as simple as complete transparency.
> 
> OP needs to clarify that.


My wife's affair made me question who I was why I wasn't enough for her, what I had done wrong to drive her into the arms of another man.

My wife did her best to assure me that it wasn't my fault. But even so, doubts in my own self remained.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZombieOnViagra

Unfortunately your remorse may have come a bit too late to salvage your marriage. Nevertheless, you should consider personal recovery therapy, like your husband did, to address and resolve the issues inside yourself that made you vulnerable to have an affair in the first place. You owe it not only to yourself, your husband but also to your children as well.

Good luck.


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## thatbpguy

MattMatt said:


> If I was in the position of having a wife who did sexual things for a lover thst she wouldn't do for me... would I want her to do them for me, afterwards?
> 
> I am not sure I would.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


While it may be an unfair double standard, there's a saying- "when you have sex with a woman you have sex with ever man she has been with". 

So it can be difficult for a man who has been so betrayed for so long that he sees sex with his wife differently.


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## IIJokerII

SevenYears said:


> Remember it didn't affect you when you thought you could end up with the OM. Or is it because you are afraid of being alone.


 Her honesty about it ending naturally vs her ending it is an at testament to what she wanted at the time. Had things worked out with her and the OM this thread would not be here and her self awareness of the hurt she caused would either have been rationalized to justify her end means or suppressed by whatever emotional effort it took to keep these truthful feelings dormant and at bay.

I will say this on the behalf of nearly every man who has been betrayed, there is nothing more emasculating than being replaced either emotionally or physically. And you did it twice for your own satisfaction. It is painfully obvious that you feel unfulfilled in your relationship with your husband and may only feel "Bad" due to the source of his pain is caused by your actions. If you really feel like you could or should be with your husband it is time to put your big girl pants on and either make the commitment or end the relationship.


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## IIJokerII

MattMatt said:


> My wife's affair made me question who I was why I wasn't enough for her, what I had done wrong to drive her into the arms of another man.
> 
> My wife did her best to assure me that it wasn't my fault. But even so, doubts in my own self remained.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Dude, she told you she was going to do it without flinching and even made sure to let you know it wasn't your fault........

I...... I am not sure how to............

Do you have a story about this somewhere cause I am curios as to what the hell happened.

End of thread jack.


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## ConanHub

IIJokerII said:


> Dude, she told you she was going to do it without flinching and even made sure to let you know it wasn't your fault........
> 
> I...... I am not sure how to............
> 
> Do you have a story about this somewhere cause I am curios as to what the hell happened.
> 
> End of thread jack.


Don't open the door. For inside dwells madness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SevenYears

IIJokerII said:


> Her honesty about it ending naturally vs her ending it is an at testament to what she wanted at the time. Had things worked out with her and the OM this thread would not be here and her self awareness of the hurt she caused would either have been rationalized to justify her end means or suppressed by whatever emotional effort it took to keep these truthful feelings dormant and at bay.


But what would happen if the OM suddenly ended the relationship with his girlfriend and decided he wanted to be with the OP. And the OP believed that it would work out. I've seen it quite a few times where this has happened and the WS will change their thinking again so that the BS is a bad partner. We can rationalise our actions to suit ourselves so that we are seen in the best light. Not just by other people but also by ourselves. I obviously can't know what the OP is thinking or how badly they feel about what they've done.

I think in most cases the WS will feel some guilt over their actions whether they stay with the BS or leave them for the OM/OW. But how much will this make a difference to their actions in the future. A WS when staying with the BS can make themselves believe that all the pain they are feeling is because of hurting them. I just think that most of it is the fear of having no one and the feelings for hurting someone are very small in comparison.

I apologise for thread jacking here.


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## SevenYears

.


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## IIJokerII

SevenYears said:


> I obviously can't know what the OP is thinking or how badly they feel about what they've done..


 She is feeling lost and regret, but the catalyst for these feelings are due to being dumped, not from inner soul searching. If she is honest with herself about what happened then she will have a better understanding about what she wants and who she is, not can be, but is, going forward. If she finds that her marriage must end due to her not feeling fulfilled or unhappy rather than trying to force it than so be it. But she is here now, so it seems she must have some love or other reason to stay with her husband. If she puts forth an effort akin to building a pyramid than the end result will be wondrous. If not, well, we've seen the outcome all too often. Lets hope for the best.


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## IIJokerII

ConanHub said:


> Don't open the door. For inside dwells madness.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Knock knock, I brought a gift basket!!!!
HAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!


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## As'laDain

i think the fear of being alone is probably the ONLY thing that will cause true introspection. think about it... when have any of us looked at ourselves, even the painful parts, and NOT because we were worried if we were wrong?

and why would we care if we were wrong if there was nobody else in the world?


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## jld

As'laDain said:


> i think the fear of being alone is probably the ONLY thing that will cause true introspection. think about it... when have any of us looked at ourselves, even the painful parts, and NOT because we were worried if we were wrong?
> 
> and why would we care if we were wrong if there was nobody else in the world?


Because we want a clear conscience, just for our own peace of mind?


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## As'laDain

jld said:


> Because we want a clear conscience, just for our own peace of mind?


a clear conscious from what? kicking a cactus? if there were no other people, why seek to be a good person? 

people are all capable of feeling pain and love like we are. the minute we stop believing that, we become psychopaths.


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## jld

As'laDain said:


> a clear conscious from what? kicking a cactus? * if there were no other people, why seek to be a good person? *
> 
> people are all capable of feeling pain and love like we are. the minute we stop believing that, we become psychopaths.


Because it feels good to have a clear conscience. It gives us peace of mind. We don't need other people to know what we are doing to want to feel good in ourselves.

Actually, I think if we did not strive to be good, we would quickly feel crummy about ourselves.


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## As'laDain

jld said:


> Because it feels good to have a clear conscience. It gives us peace of mind. We don't need other people to know what we are doing to want to feel good in ourselves.
> 
> Actually, I think if we did not strive to be good, we would quickly feel crummy about ourselves.


my point is, there is no good or bad without other people. if you lived alone and lived your days doing whatever you needed to survive, you would be no different than any other animal on earth. without other people, we have no connection. our life has no meaning. we are no more than a dog in the wilderness. and we would have no concept of what any of that meant. 

without our own, we are just living for us. and those who only live for themselves already have a clean conscious.


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## ThePheonix

White Rose said:


> I can say I started behaving better as I did not want to be that person any more but I have been unable to do some of the things my husband said were vital to save the marriage. I felt very dirty and unclean about what I did and found it hard to feel sexy for him as much as he wanted me to. I just wanted to hide from the questions and lie to get out of admitting what I'd done. This hurt him even more.
> Now I am about to be seperated as he has found his anger too much to allow him to get on with his life with me.


Truthfully WR, I ain't buying what you're selling. I know women too well. Let's see, you give the other man the full monty for 2 1/2 year and came back for more when he called, but now you can't do some of the things your husband wants, all because you feel dirty and unclean about what you done. Give me a break. Your husband may be a good old boy, but you've had little desire for him for a long time and he knows it.
Here's the thing WR, and you know it, the reason you feel "dirty and unclean" with your old man whereas you didn't feel "dirty and unclean" with your boyfriend is because you wanted to do the the deeds with him; simple as that. Sort of reminds me of Margaret White in the movie Carrie:

" _And then, that night, I saw him looking down at me that way. We got down on our knees to pray for strength. I smelled the whiskey on his breath. Then he took me. He took me, with the stink of filthy roadhouse whiskey on his breath, and I liked it. I liked it! With all that dirty touching of his hands all over me._" 

I'd bet money when your husband is out of the picture, you'll get a call from the boyfriend and it'll be business as usual.


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## verpin zal

Let us be honest sweetheart, you weren't gonna end the "thrill" had you not been caught... Twice.

Oh don't worry, we all know "I don't love him, in fact he disgusts me NOW" speech. That "NOW" there is the key to the life, universe, and everything.


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## ThePheonix

IIJokerII said:


> Dude, she told you she was going to do it without flinching and even made sure to let you know it wasn't your fault........


I would have considered her doing it to me twice, the first time and the last time.


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## Chris989

Guys this is my wife.

I'm leaving today. I hit a brick wall a week ago despite my last post.

Not got much time at the moment but will return later.


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## MattMatt

Chris989 said:


> Guys this is my wife.
> 
> I'm leaving today. I hit a brick wall a week ago despite my last post.
> 
> Not got much time at the moment but will return later.


Oh s**t. I will pm you. So very sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf9

Chris989 said:


> Guys this is my wife.
> 
> I'm leaving today. I hit a brick wall a week ago despite my last post.
> 
> Not got much time at the moment but will return later.


I have immediately recognided it was your story to the tee. I hope you are doing OK.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SevenYears

Chris989 said:


> Guys this is my wife.
> 
> I'm leaving today. I hit a brick wall a week ago despite my last post.
> 
> Not got much time at the moment but will return later.


I'm sorry you've had to go through this Chris. Just read your thread. I think this is the right thing for you.


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## MattMatt

I think White Rose is fully aware of what she did. Beating her up will not help at this stage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Chris989 said:


> Guys this is my wife.
> 
> I'm leaving today. I hit a brick wall a week ago despite my last post.
> 
> Not got much time at the moment but will return later.


Chris, I wish you nothing but health, happiness, and success. You've been through so much, for so long. No one could ever suggest that you have not gone over and above for your family. My heart truly goes out to you. Whenever the final chapter of your story is written, I pray that it has a happy ending for you and your daughters. I'm not sure that I know of any other poster on TAM who deserves it more. Please take care of you now. You need to fully heal.

White Rose, I noticed your join date of September, 2012, yet this was your first post. So, have you been following your husband's thread all along? If so, was he aware of that? Were you reading his gut wrenching struggles as he was trying, in vain, to find a way to save his relationship with you? A relationship that you so callously and foolishly destroyed; first with that POS loser you took up with, then, with your unwillingness, or inability, to give your husband even the bare minimum of support, comfort, and encouragement that he needed to heal?

I was a cheater, too. I, also, put my husband through two D-Days with the same AP, 13 months apart. Still, my husband loved me. And, he even became a better man, one that I no longer even deserved, at that point. 

I don't think you're grieving over the heartbreak that you have caused your husband, I think you're grieving over what you're losing, which is everything, now. You never really thought you'd lose him, did you? I rooted for your marriage, your relationship, your family. I saw so much of my own precious husband in Chris. If he was so willing to reconcile with you, I was sure there must be something worth reconciling. I'm sorry, but when I read your post, I didn't see it, at all. And, that was before I had put it all together and realized who your husband was. 

If you have any compassion for your husband, at all, then let him go, make it as easy for him as possible, and wish him well. For once, think about him.


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## bigtone128

Funny I thought it was mine - lol. The story is eerily familiar. My ex pursued this other guy. And as you stated Wild (actually quite a handle) you withheld sexual favors from your husband and did them with the other guy. Then for 2.5 years. 

Now here are some questions for you..
1) Why did you withhold from your husband what you did with your affair partner? My sense of my ex is that she wanted power and control over me and she got that by withholding from me. She wanted power and control over the affair partner and you did so by offering yourself sexually to him. SO you are really all about power and control NOT about love - which is why your husband is divorcing you. As a person on the other side, I thought I married a good loving person who would be there for me through thick and thin - but I did not and that realization became clear as her affair continued. Why did it take you 2.5 years to "figure it out"? People with a strong moral compass would have figured it out within a few days, been remorseful, and did what it took to make things better. But 2.5 years - nope too long. The MERE fact that your husband hung in as long as he did means to me 1) He really loved you (or who he thought was you) and 2) He was/is a really good guy.
My ex went around with her affair partner and I waited and waited for her to get her head out of her behind. But the longer it took, I had to eventually see that she really did not give a crap for me. It was about her. Furthermore, I realized it was always about her. Then I saw our relationship in its true light. It was about her. She convinced others it was about me but it was about her. So how do you think your husband feels knowing you did sexual stuff with your affair partner that you would not do with him? To him it speaks loudly you loved your affair partner MORE than you loved him. I think now about my ex and think "if 28 years was not enough to show I cared, well no amount will be enough for her?" 
Two incidents come to mind with my ex that seem appropriate here.
1) When I saw her one year into the affair and she started crying and I said "It would help me if you apolgized." to which she snapped "I am NOT sorry!". Spoke volumes about her sense of entitlement and lack of consideration of me.
2) After 2 years she finally said to one of our sons - "My affair had nothing to do with ANYTHING your father did or did not do." I thought WOW she finally came to the conclusion it was her. BUT here's the deal - it took her 2 YEARS! How does it take someone 2 years to come to the conclusion that EVERYONE around her knows is wrong? It spoke volumes again about the type of person she is.
3) After 2.5 years I finally realized that I would be okay without her and realized ALL the time I wasted on trying to make a relationship with a broken person. 
In my mind my ex could not see or stand anything beautiful in her life. She had to always put a "taint" on it because I believe deep down inside she felt unworthy. There is a scene in "An Officer and a Gentlemen" where Lou Gossett Jr. keeps saying to Richard Gere "Why do you do these things? It is because DEEP down inside you know you do know you do not belong. DEEP down inside you know you do not deserve good things." Kinda true of my former spouse. Sadly, I still care about her as a person but could never go back given the reasons I told you. I wish the best for you. I am sorry for the choices you made.

One final thing - to avoid the sense of victimization - you really need to examine your own behavior in all of this. For example, a memory when the whole thing was going on came to me. I called my ex up on the way home one night and she was so loving and then while on the way I got a call from her and she said "If you are coming home, march right upstairs, do not talk to me and get out as soon as possible in the AM." I realize now it was because she talked to her AP and he was upset I was coming to my own house. Memories like this are too painful to deal with. How many other ways did she give herself to him? So I am sure if you examine your own behavior over the last 2 years you can pretty much figure out why your husband wants to divorce.


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## EI

MattMatt said:


> I think White Rose is fully aware of what she did. Beating her up will not help at this stage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


MattMatt, no one has. But, this is TAM, surely you don't expect........ eh, nevermind..... :scratchhead:


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## Chaparral

MattMatt said:


> I think White Rose is fully aware of what she did. Beating her up will not help at this stage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But, but, she's in total denial of who she is. She will.move on quickly unless she has let herself go. She may not find love like she didn't find love with the other man she destroyed her family for. She will find men to jump her bones though. She can go be nasty again now.


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## azteca1986

White Rose said:


> I can say I started behaving better as I did not want to be that person any more but *I have been unable* to do some of the things my husband said were *vital* to save the marriage.


You made your choice and have to live with the consequences as we all do.

Your husband said these 'things' were vital to save your marriage. You called his bluff. And here you are.


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## LongWalk

Sorry that your reconciliation did not succeed.

White Rose,

Did Chris know that you had an account on TAM?

The question of sexual passion that troubles many BS. Couldn't having sex with Chris progressively erase the importance of OM for you? If you made love with Christ didn't the OM cease to exist for the two of you?

Do you regret admitting to aspects of what you did with OM? Did these facts become obstacles that your marriage crashed into over and over?

Chris says that your relationship is over. Is hope dead for you?

Do you believe the remarriage was in some way less than a true commitment?

Do you wish that you had remained an unmarried couple?

Did the marriage create new pressure on your relationship?


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## RV9

It's sad that the love shown by Chris was never reciprocated. I'd call it love coz what his xw did is closer to wilful emotional torture rather than simply an affair. New sex acts with OM, TT, gaslighting - full house. There are very few men who would have tried to R after all that went down. 

Love has no meaning. Thanks WR for making it obvious.


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## GusPolinski

Chris989 said:


> Guys this is my wife.
> 
> I'm leaving today. I hit a brick wall a week ago despite my last post.
> 
> Not got much time at the moment but will return later.


Damn. Sorry man. Can't say that I don't understand, though... 2 1/2 years is a long damn time.

And OP, you should PM a mod to have your name changed; sorry, but you're not a "rose" at all.

Of _*any*_ color.


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## LongWalk

Well, Gus, you are wrong. OM was a black dude and Rose was a white wife. So the BBC fetish idea was an obstacle to reconciliation. Chris has explicitly mentioned this in the past.


----------



## G.J.

Chris989 said:


> Guys this is my wife.
> 
> I'm leaving today. I hit a brick wall a week ago despite my last post.
> 
> Not got much time at the moment but will return later.


Chris really sorry to hear the latest.

IF she hasn't given 110% then there's no hope for her

If she has then all she can hope for is that you make the best decisions for *your self*

Note:
Can you imagine some one who did some thing like this being in their 60s thinking of a life partner they could have been with who truly loved them....
Instead finding them self's alone or with what a lot of people have, a partner they have picked up so they aren't lonely


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Chris989 said:


> Guys this is my wife.
> 
> I'm leaving today. I hit a brick wall a week ago despite my last post.
> 
> Not got much time at the moment but will return later.


When read her post I thought to myself that this woman is either truly desperate and panicking, or it was a "troll".

Sorry to hear of your your troubles, though I can relate to hitting the a brick wall.

I don't know if she's still reading this thread, but I really do question her choice of a user name. I mean "White Rose"...

In light of what she did, to me her choice of this name is like grinding salt into a festering wound.


----------



## GusPolinski

LongWalk said:


> Well, Gus, you are wrong. OM was a black dude and Rose was a white wife. So the BBC fetish idea was an obstacle to reconciliation. Chris has explicitly mentioned this in the past.


No, I get that. Don't see what I'm "wrong" about, though...

:scratchhead:


----------



## azteca1986

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> I don't know if she's still reading this thread, but I really do question her choice of a user name. I mean "White Rose"...
> 
> In light of what she did, to me her choice of this name is like grinding salt into a festering wound.


Maybe she's from Yorkshire?


----------



## LongWalk

GusPolinski said:


> No, I get that. Don't see what I'm "wrong" about, though...
> 
> :scratchhead:


I guess we agree that the virginal name was ironic.

Anyway this thread belongs to an apparent long time lurker. She must know quite a bit about TAM. What does she want from us? Are we supposed to convince Chris to change his mind? Offer ideas for another reconciliation?

What do you want WhiteRose?

What haven't you tried to fix things?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MattMatt said:


> I think White Rose is fully aware of what she did. Beating her up will not help at this stage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Being aware is not the same as understanding. I think she understands NOW that he has decided to move on.


----------



## GusPolinski

LongWalk said:


> I guess we agree that the virginal name was ironic.
> 
> Anyway this thread belongs to an apparent long time lurker. She must know quite a bit about TAM. What does she want from us? Are we supposed to convince Chris to change his mind? Offer ideas for another reconciliation?
> 
> What do you want WhiteRose?
> 
> What haven't you tried to fix things?


I don't see her getting much support here.


----------



## Roselyn

Chris989 said:


> Guys this is my wife.
> 
> I'm leaving today. I hit a brick wall a week ago despite my last post.
> 
> Not got much time at the moment but will return later.


I'm very sorry for your situation Chris989. This must be devastating to a forgiving husband to be betrayed twice. I'm hoping for your peace of mind.


----------



## jim123

Chris989 said:


> Guys this is my wife.
> 
> I'm leaving today. I hit a brick wall a week ago despite my last post.
> 
> Not got much time at the moment but will return later.


Chris,

Best of luck to you. This is your best post because for the first time it is about you and your future. You deserve to be happy, you deserved to be loved.

You are a very strong man to have gone through all of this. Few could have done what you have. One day you will realize how special you are.


----------



## MattMatt

IIJokerII said:


> Dude, she told you she was going to do it without flinching and even made sure to let you know it wasn't your fault........
> 
> I...... I am not sure how to............
> 
> Do you have a story about this somewhere cause I am curios as to what the hell happened.
> 
> End of thread jack.


My story is on TAM. 

We are still together after 25 years.


----------



## EI

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> I don't know if she's still reading this thread, but I really do question her choice of a user name. I mean "White Rose"...
> 
> In light of what she did, to me her choice of this name is like grinding salt into a festering wound.


I agree, and I think it's particularly bothersome because her join date of September, 2012, was just two months after Chris's join date of July, 2012. His wounds could not have been any more fresh, at that time. Yet, she selected the username "White Rose," and she must have known that it could very well be a painful trigger to Chris every time he saw it. You have to wonder what her intentions were in choosing a name like that. 

I shudder to think that White Rose might have been the OM's pet name for her. It makes me feel sick even thinking this way. Having been the WS, (which seems so incredibly foreign and distant to me, now) it seems apparent to me, that it was an obvious "inside jab" at her husband. Or, simply a way to feel close to OM. But, why now, after over 2 years, a divorce, a reconciliation, a remarriage, and an impending separation, without ever even having written a single post under that name, would she post under it now? If White Rose actually wanted Chris back, is waiting for him, and loves him, as she stated in her OP, then why in Hell's name didn't she create a new account with a username that wasn't just one more way to stick it to him, yet again? 

Before I ever began my A, I no longer respected my husband, nor was I in love with him. On D-Day # 2, I was still not "in love" with my husband. I was honest with him about that. Neither of us knew whether we could or should attempt to reconcile our marriage, at that point. But, we both knew that we had to reconcile "the situation," as we had a family together, and we knew that we had to live together for at least another year or two before a divorce would even be possible. 

Not even with years of built up bitterness and resentment towards him, did any part of me ever enjoy one second of seeing him suffer the way he did. Like Chris, my husband managed to truly love me the most when I was the least deserving of his love. With a tremendous amount of effort, compassion, understanding, forgiveness, and finally renewed love, on both of our parts, we have very happily reconciled. There is simply nothing that I would not do to help him heal. And, not because I have to, but because I genuinely want to. We are one flesh and if he cannot heal, than I cannot heal. 

White Rose, I don't believe your reasons for not being able to give Chris what he needed to heal. They don't ring true to me. And, having been on the WS side of infidelity, I think I can get inside of your head better than someone who has not been a WS.

Only now, as Chris is walking out the door, have you "apparently" seen the light??? I'm sorry, but I don't think you've seen the light, at all. I think you're looking into your own future and it looks very dark. I feel so sorry for all of you. I don't think it had to end this way, but I do think it's too late now. 

I'll never forget something I read that was written by a BH on TAM a couple of years ago. He and his wife have reconciled, but he said that he'd never go through all of that effort again because "You can only kill me once."


----------



## MattMatt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Being aware is not the same as understanding. I think she understands NOW that he has decided to move on.


Yeah. I also read the POSOM's evil posts on another site, where he boasted about his abilities to 'break' white women.

Aughhhh. Just so much bad stuff.


----------



## MattMatt

GusPolinski said:


> I don't see her getting much support here.


If she is genuinely remorseful, she'll have my support. Though maybe support is too strong a word?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MattMatt said:


> Yeah. I also read the POSOM's evil posts on another site, where he boasted about his abilities to 'break' white women.
> 
> Aughhhh. Just so much bad stuff.


 Terrible.


----------



## LongWalk

MattMatt said:


> Yeah. I also read the POSOM's evil posts on another site, where he boasted about his abilities to 'break' white women.
> 
> Aughhhh. Just so much bad stuff.


What sort of site?

If humiliating your husband is an aphrodisiac, how come giving him "dirty" sex is not a cure to aid in R?


----------



## MattMatt

LongWalk said:


> What sort of site?
> 
> If humiliating your husband is an aphrodisiac, how come giving him "dirty" sex is not a cure to aid in R?


It's buried in a thread on TAM. 

If you want O.E.'s Cheateville profile, please pm me.


----------



## GusPolinski

MattMatt said:


> If she is genuinely remorseful, she'll have my support. Though maybe support is too strong a word?


Sorry, but no. OP has pretty much earned whatever she has coming to her. Harsh? Maybe.

Support Chris. He's the one that truly needs us.


----------



## ThePheonix

Roselyn said:


> I'm very sorry for your situation Chris989. This must be devastating to a forgiving husband to be betrayed twice. I'm hoping for your peace of mind.


I've got news for you Roz, she betrayed him more than twice. She betrayed him during her 18 month ménage à trois, she betrayed him when her FB called and she summarily went running into his arms and his bed and she betrayed him hundreds of more times when she wished she could be in damp, tangled sheets with her FB, before, during, and after the phony reconciliation.
Here's the thing that many cats seem to forget, but you know it Roz. When a woman tells her old man who she's been sharing bed and board with for several years, who hopefully was the man impregnated her and is the father of her children, that she is in love with another man, notwithstanding the other man causes her behave like a harlot in a den of inequity, it's probably a little beyond where the husband can say, "hey baby, this marriage is important to me so lets reconcile. Forget about him, don't contact him again, be remorseful, and we can live in bliss".


----------



## ricky15100

Username is a bit of a joke, implies purity and beauty, or is it more like it looks beautiful but when touched causes injury?


----------



## ThePheonix

ricky15100 said:


> Username is a bit of a joke, implies purity and beauty, or is it more like it looks beautiful but when touched causes injury?


After reading some recent post, in a bizarre sort of way, it makes sense.


----------



## alte Dame

Too many lies for too long can wear out even the most loyal of hearts.

We love Chris here. For me, he is a shining example of an intelligent, strong, honorable man who has absolutely nothing to reproach himself for. His strength of character speaks for itself.

This is the kind of man you lied to over and over again. This is selfishness on your part from start to finish. It is long past time for you to take a good, hard look at the man you have been betraying with your lies. It's long past time to take that cleansing breath and respect him enough to see past your own self-interest, to see how he is feeling, to understand what you have put him through.

Even if you two can never be together again, you owe him the respect of understanding and empathy.


----------



## MattMatt

GusPolinski said:


> Sorry, but no. OP has pretty much earned whatever she has coming to her. Harsh? Maybe.
> 
> Support Chris. He's the one that truly needs us.


I am supporting Chris. I even helped him when POSOM tried to have his Cheaterville links removed from Google.


----------



## LongWalk

@Matt
I saw the Cheaterville post long ago.

@Gus
TAM needs to engage waywards. There is a lot to be learned from White Rose. This is her thread. Chris has a lot of support and he has chosen to post here. If someone goes to Chris's thread and copies something to raise here with White Rose, that would be good.


----------



## Roselyn

White Rose, you have not responded to the posts. What do you have to say so that Wayward Spouses can learn from you? What is in your head so that we can understand you?


----------



## ConanHub

OP. I am out. I remember talking to Chris on a thread a while back and I thought he was making a mistake with you.

I could feel his anguish through every word he used to defend his R with you.

I am sorry I was right. For his sake, I am sorry. For your children I am sorry.

My advice to you, become someone else. I would have a hard time spitting on you if you were on fire right now.

You should give Chris anything he wants and maybe get yourself some mental help.

The only word that comes to mind about you, unfortunately, is scum.

People can change into better people. Hope you do for your own sake.

I am too close to throwing up to continue with this thread. Hope you get help. I will encourage Chris from now on.


----------



## MattMatt

ricky15100 said:


> Username is a bit of a joke, implies purity and beauty, or is it more like it looks beautiful but when touched causes injury?


It's probably a Northern England reference. War of the Roses, White Rose was worn by Yorkists.


----------



## GusPolinski

LongWalk said:


> @Gus
> TAM needs to engage *some* waywards.


There... I fixed that for you.



LongWalk said:


> There is a lot to be learned from White Rose. This is her thread.


Oh I agree... let the initial post serve as a cautionary tale to other potentially wayward spouses. It's not good for much else.

Think about it... she registered over TWO YEARS AGO and is just now posting? Sorry, but the whole thing smacks of nothing more than a bunch of manipulative bullsh*t to me. Where was this outpouring of remorse when POSOM was seeding her birth canal, on D-Day #1, on D-Day #2, or in all the days, weeks, months, and years between then and now?!?

Oh, and Chris had a vasectomy because she wouldn't go onto the pill for him...?!? No. F*ck that. F*ck ALL of that.



LongWalk said:


> Chris has a lot of support and he has chosen to post here. If someone goes to Chris's thread and copies something to raise here with White Rose, that would be good.


Have at it. Be prepared for a bunch of bullsh*t, though... and that's assuming that OP even comes back to post.


----------



## GusPolinski

ConanHub said:


> OP. I am out. *I remember talking to Chris on a thread a while back and I thought he was making a mistake with you.*
> 
> I could feel his anguish through every word he used to defend his R with you.
> 
> I am sorry I was right. For his sake, I am sorry. For your children I am sorry.
> 
> My advice to you, become someone else. I would have a hard time spitting on you if you were on fire right now.
> 
> You should give Chris anything he wants and maybe get yourself some mental help.
> 
> The only word that comes to mind about you, unfortunately, is scum.
> 
> People can change into better people. Hope you do for your own sake.
> 
> I am too close to throwing up to continue with this thread. Hope you get help. I will encourage Chris from now on.


Yep. Some were more polite than others about it, but it looks like all of us turned out to be correct after all.


----------



## G.J.

If you have the nerve to come back could you fully elaborate please on your comment



White Rose said:


> I have been unable to do some of the things my husband said were vital to save the marriage.


----------



## jim123

EI said:


> I agree, and I think it's particularly bothersome because her join date of September, 2012, was just two months after Chris's join date of July, 2012. His wounds could not have been any more fresh, at that time. Yet, she selected the username "White Rose," and she must have known that it could very well be a painful trigger to Chris every time he saw it. You have to wonder what her intentions were in choosing a name like that.
> 
> I shudder to think that White Rose might have been the OM's pet name for her. It makes me feel sick even thinking this way. Having been the WS, (which seems so incredibly foreign and distant to me, now) it seems apparent to me, that it was an obvious "inside jab" at her husband. Or, simply a way to feel close to OM. But, why now, after over 2 years, a divorce, a reconciliation, a remarriage, and an impending separation, without ever even having written a single post under that name, would she post under it now? If White Rose actually wanted Chris back, is waiting for him, and loves him, as she stated in her OP, then why in Hell's name didn't she create a new account with a username that wasn't just one more way to stick it to him, yet again?
> 
> Before I ever began my A, I no longer respected my husband, nor was I in love with him. On D-Day # 2, I was still not "in love" with my husband. I was honest with him about that. Neither of us knew whether we could or should attempt to reconcile our marriage, at that point. But, we both knew that we had to reconcile "the situation," as we had a family together, and we knew that we had to live together for at least another year or two before a divorce would even be possible.
> 
> Not even with years of built up bitterness and resentment towards him, did any part of me ever enjoy one second of seeing him suffer the way he did. Like Chris, my husband managed to truly love me the most when I was the least deserving of his love. With a tremendous amount of effort, compassion, understanding, forgiveness, and finally renewed love, on both of our parts, we have very happily reconciled. There is simply nothing that I would not do to help him heal. And, not because I have to, but because I genuinely want to. We are one flesh and if he cannot heal, than I cannot heal.
> 
> White Rose, I don't believe your reasons for not being able to give Chris what he needed to heal. They don't ring true to me. And, having been on the WS side of infidelity, I think I can get inside of your head better than someone who has not be a WS.
> 
> Only now, as Chris is walking out the door, have you "apparently" seen the light??? I'm sorry, but I don't think you've seen the light, at all. I think you're looking into your own future and it looks very dark. I feel so sorry for all of you. I don't think it had to end this way, but I do think it's too late now.
> 
> I'll never forget something I read that was written by a BH on TAM a couple of years ago. He and his wife have reconciled, but he said that he'd never go through all of that effort again because "You can only kill me once."


This is why we need FWS like EI on TAM.

I like EI do not think White Rose gets it. Chris had been and will always be plan B. The OP will always have her time with OM as special. Chris is not special to OP.

Chris should not be the second best man in his marriage. The OP does not respect Chris. OP does not love him, OP needs him. 

There is a big difference.

I too have seen OM's post on the other site and think the White Rose was her pet name from him. She came on she was still in love with OM. She has only later found out that OM had zero respect for her.

She would have left Chris for OM in a heartbeat and maybe still would if OM says she is who he truly loves.

My heart goes out to Chris and I know his future will be bright and filled with the love he gives once he finds the lucky person that loves him


----------



## chaos

White Rose,

I can understand a female mid-life crisis and the intoxication that a 47 year old married woman may experience of being sexually pursued by another man. But the POSOM (Piece Of S-it Other Man) has 6 children with 6 different women and a GF on the side that you knew about while he was b-nging you. For a woman, who supposedly had a fear of God of contracting STD's and HIV, you ended up with a f=ck buddy that should be on the Center for Disease Control's alert list, right next to the Ebola virus (which BTW can be contracted via sexual intercourse).

You put not only your life at risk but that of your husband's as well of your children becoming orphans. Lady, you don't need marriage counseling, you need a shrink, BIG TIME.


----------



## MattMatt

chaos said:


> White Rose,
> 
> I can understand a female mid-life crisis and the intoxication that a 47 year old married woman may experience of being sexually pursued by another man. But the POSOM (Piece Of S-it Other Man) has 6 children with 6 different women and a GF on the side that you knew about while he was b-nging you. For a woman, who supposedly had a fear of God of contracting STD's and HIV, you ended up with a f=ck buddy that should be on the Center for Disease Control's alert list, right next to the Ebola virus (which BTW can be contracted via sexual intercourse).
> 
> You put not only your life at risk but that of your husband's as well of your children becoming orphans. Lady, you don't need marriage counseling, you need a shrink, BIG TIME.


POSOM made a habit of wrecking marriages and relationships, including his own.

However, before Chris put him on Cheaterville, POSOM was considered to be a real hero in his community. Probably still is.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Honestly, I hope you deleted all of your old posts and this isn't the first one. If it is, you betrayed him again by lurking in his threads and learning how to manipulate his needs to reconcile.


----------



## chaos

MattMatt said:


> POSOM made a habit of wrecking marriages and relationships, including his own.
> 
> However, before Chris put him on Cheaterville, POSOM was considered to be a real hero in his community. Probably still is.


If by hero you mean that the POSOM was once in the military, then he is a disgrace to his fellow soldiers and to the country that he once served.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Our children are 13 and 17, both girls and I am 49 and he is 45.


----------



## thummper

I guess I don't quite understand this situation. If you love your husband, as you profess to do, why in the world are you messing around with this other guy?


----------



## the guy

What the phuck were thinking? your old man gave you a second chanced and yet you screwed it up big time.....why?

Seriously WTF!!


----------



## chaos

White Rose,

The demons that drove you to destroy your marriage, and the lives of those closest to you, need to be exorcised before you are ready to be in a committed relationship. Whatever happens to your marriage, you still have a chance to rebuild your life and to help repair the damage you caused your children, your husband and to yourself as well.

Good luck.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

thummper said:


> What were some of the things that you were unable to do for him and why couldn't you do them?


He wanted me to be very sexual and have regular me and him time ie early nights where I gave him attention. I was sexual with him, not as much as he wanted but I wasn't much good at putting the early nights aside. I work until 21.00hours 4 nights a week but have started to do this recently which was too little too late. I felt very dirty and unsexy as a result of what I did, it took a long time to be able to feel better about this. I also had some female issues going on which made it difficult to be intimate. Chris thought this was to do with the contraception I had taken for the OM but I had a history of these problems since my second child and I am at the age women often come up against these problems. We argued a lot and looking back it was not nice. I took the view anything he called me was out of character and because he was hurt so took it on the chin. This was not good though when you're trying to be intimate. I now concede that I should have made more effort but it was hard to with the rows we had and the way I was starting to not like myself.


----------



## the guy

I mean I can understand how sh1tty a marriage can turn out after awhile but when sh1t hit the fan you could have turned it around with a huge degree of submission....but now your kicking your self......why?


Why not say screw it and the cheater police bull crap and tell your old man to pound sand?


You got busted and could have bailed...why still hang on to a marriage and the OM.....common sense should have told you that after being found out you had to make a choice?


I just can't get passed that you phucked over or old man not once but twice and yet regret it?

Call me an @ss whole but I can't see were the regret comes into play.


----------



## the guy

chaos said:


> White Rose,
> 
> The demons that drove you to destroy your marriage, and the lives of those closest to you, need to be exorcised before you are ready to be in a committed relationship. Whatever happens to your marriage, you still have a chance to rebuild your life and to help repair the damage you caused your children, your husband and to yourself as well.
> 
> Good luck.


:iagree:
Like they say when in a air plan crash" put the O2 mask on first then help others!"

OP I think you have a lot of work to do on your self before ever having a healthy relationship again.....I just hopes it's with the father of your kids.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

thummper said:


> I guess I don't quite understand this situation. If you love your husband, as you profess to do, why in the world *are* you messing around with this other guy?


"Were" not "are." The very basic story is she cheated, falsely reconciled, she cheated again, they divorced, they remarried and he is leaving due to his anger. It's sad, but his thread is one, of many stories, reasons I will always be leery of counselors.


----------



## the guy

White Rose said:


> I felt very dirty and unsexy as a result of what I did, it took a long time to be able to feel better about this..


 A little more submission in this department would have done Chris a world of good. God knows he needed the ego boost.

But then again maybe that kind of submission was meant for the OM.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

jim123 said:


> This is why we need FWS like EI on TAM.
> 
> I like EI do not think White Rose gets it. Chris had been and will always be plan B. The OP will always have her time with OM as special. Chris is not special to OP.
> 
> Chris should not be the second best man in his marriage. The OP does not respect Chris. OP does not love him, OP needs him.
> 
> There is a big difference.
> 
> I too have seen OM's post on the other site and think the White Rose was her pet name from him. She came on she was still in love with OM. She has only later found out that OM had zero respect for her.
> 
> She would have left Chris for OM in a heartbeat and maybe still would if OM says she is who he truly loves.
> 
> My heart goes out to Chris and I know his future will be bright and filled with the love he gives once he finds the lucky person that loves him


White rose as a name has nothing to do with anything and certainly not a dig of any kind, feel as sick as you like about that but you are wrong. I do not need Chris for what he has but I do need him because we have a lot of history, see life the same way, still have a great bond and are friends, I also love him very much indeed. I messed up in the biggest way because I wanted to at the time. I genuinely regret this and will for the rest of my days.


----------



## MattMatt

chaos said:


> If by hero you mean that the POSOM was once in the military, then he is a disgrace to his fellow soldiers and to the country that he once served.


No, he is not ex-military but has won awards for community work and is a hero to local people. Though his star is starting to fade as more people search his name and find out what he is really like.


----------



## mr.bunbury

I read both threads and it is beyond me why people are wasting their breath on White Rose. She is pretty set on her course and all the bashing you can do isn't going to change a thing, her game obviously is to to stab Chris in the back for a third time.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> that would be my question.
> 
> what couldnt you do? i mean, if it would allow him to shelve his anger and actually come back to you and reconcile, why wont you do it?


There is nothing I wouldn't do now but my husband is hurt that it has took so long. I am not in denial about my role in the affair anymore and am able to function better. I did not think he would leave and thought we could fix this. I have become better in many ways as a wife and mother from looking at myself and my behaviour. I know many cheats re offend but I will not do. I am too ashamed at what I have done. I am going to counseling to look at what happened and why and about certain traits in my character. I have posted here at a late date because Chris wants me to. I did not do it before as I was too scared to and didn't think it would do any good.


----------



## ThePheonix

White Rose said:


> but I do need him because we have a lot of history, see life the same way, still have a great bond and are friends, I also love him very much indeed. I messed up in the biggest way because I wanted to at the time. I genuinely regret this and will for the rest of my days.


Kind of a stretch and an outrageous understatement in the same paragraph.


----------



## the guy

Ya I'm wired different then most, but isn't it half the fun to feel dirty when it comes to sex???? To bad OP wasted it on someone that didn't appreciate it.

And thats the thing....OP went back to OM and yet feeling dirty was ok with OM but not with BH?

I think OP needs to answer some ugly questions about her self to heal and have a healthier relationship in the future.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

White Rose said:


> He wanted me to be very sexual and have regular me and him time ie early nights where I gave him attention. I was sexual with him, not as much as he wanted but I wasn't much good at putting the early nights aside. I work until 21.00hours 4 nights a week but have started to do this recently which was too little too late. I felt very dirty and unsexy as a result of what I did, it took a long time to be able to feel better about this.


This reminds me of a story about a WW that was too tired to have much sex, but when in an affair she managed to get out of bed as soon as H was asleep, went out to OM, slept with him and was back in time to catch an hour or so of sleep.

The book 'Sperm Wars' is really giving the only possible explanation for such behavior: Your genes wanted to procreate with OM's DNA.

It breaks my hart to see this kind of drama. Like some other story, where WW 'in her before and afterwards despised role as the bad woman', provide OM with all the kinds of sexual acts her H would only have dreamed from, while before *AND after*, she did not do these things, because she wanted to be not a bad woman anymore....

Go figure how heartwrenching this must be for all those poor bastards with wives like these....


----------



## MattMatt

mr.bunbury said:


> I read both threads and it is beyond me why people are wasting their breath on White Rose. She is pretty set on her course and all the bashing you can do isn't going to change a thing, her game obviously is to to stab Chris in the back for a third time.


Because that's what people do. They reach out for those who need help.

Even people who made a mess of everything.


----------



## the guy

Ya OP screwed up by stopping being a "bad girl".....she should have stayed bad with the good guy....her husband!

And ya I'm posting with experience.....

I am sure I wouldn't have kept Mrs. the-guy around if it wasn't for her huge degree of submission.


----------



## the guy

MattMatt said:


> Because that's what people do. They reach out for those who need help.
> 
> Even people who made a mess of everything.


:iagree:


----------



## chaos

White Rose said:


> I am going to counseling to look at what happened and why and about certain traits in my character.


Another take away from this is that there are predators (I refuse to call them men for they are not worthy of the mantle) that exploit any weakness in married women, and who, like their counterparts in the wild, go in for the kill.

Granted that they have always existed, but with today's technology, many of them have perfected the art of seduction down to a science. A Google search on "how to seduce a married woman" yielded over 1.4 million results.

While it is true that no one put a gun to your head to begin an affair with the OM, it would seem that you were targeted by one who knew very well what buttons to push in order to betray your husband, your marriage and yourself. Acknowledging their existence, and their purpose in life, can be a huge way of avoiding them and an affair.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

White Rose said:


> Chris thought this was to do with the contraception I had taken for the OM but I had a history of these problems since my second child and I am at the age women often come up against these problems.


Hmmm....

As a man, this reasoning would be intolerable for me.
1)You had these problems since your second child, which means they didn't stop you from cheating. Yet, they are now stopping you from being intimate the way he expects.

2)A few years after the fact and all of these age issues appear to affect intimacy? I'd be hard pressed to believe it is "woman issues" because of number one.

2) You lied about sex issues. 

Yes, women deal with issues men do not. I am not arguing this isn't the truth on your part at all. Yes, the age factor can be 100% coincidental and all timing. All I am saying is you do not grasp your double betrayal if you are blaming work, his anger, woman issues and feeling dirty for your own actions.


----------



## GusPolinski

White Rose said:


> There is nothing I wouldn't do now...


Now? Why not then? Oh wait... I think I know...



White Rose said:


> ...but my husband is hurt that it has took so long. I am not in denial about my role in the affair anymore and am able to function better. *I did not think he would leave* and thought we could fix this.


And there it is. You didn't think he would leave, so you put forth a very mediocre effort at reconciliation... at best.



White Rose said:


> I have become better in many ways as a wife and mother from looking at myself and my behaviour.


It would seem that Chris -- the one person whose opinion *truly* matters in this instance -- disagrees.



White Rose said:


> I know many cheats re offend but I will not do.


Uhhh... you already did.



White Rose said:


> I am too ashamed at what I have done. I am going to counseling to look at what happened and why and about certain traits in my character. I have posted here at a late date because Chris wants me to. *I did not do it before as I was too scared to and didn't think it would do any good.*


It probably won't now, but it may very well have saved your marriage had you done so following D-Day #1.


----------



## GusPolinski

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Hmmm....
> 
> As a man, this reasoning would be intolerable for me.
> 1)You had these problems since your second child, which means they didn't stop you from cheating. Yet, they are now stopping you from being intimate the way he expects.
> 
> 2)A few years after the fact and all of these age issues appear to affect intimacy? I'd be hard pressed to believe it is "woman issues" because of number one.
> 
> 2) You lied about sex issues.
> 
> *Yes, women deal with issues men do not.* I am not arguing this isn't the truth on your part at all. Yes, the age factor can be 100% coincidental and all timing. All I am saying is you do not grasp your double betrayal if you are blaming work, his anger, woman issues and feeling dirty for your own actions.


And vice versa.


----------



## the guy

chaos said:


> Another take away from this is that there are predators (I refuse to call them men for they are not worthy of the mantle) that exploit any weakness in married women, and who, like their counterparts in the wild, go in for the kill.
> 
> Granted that they have always existed, but with today's technology, many of them have perfected the art of seduction down to a science. A Google search on "how to seduce a married woman" yielded over 1.4 million results.
> 
> While it is true that no one put a gun to your head to begin an affair with the OM, it would seem that you were targeted by one who knew very well what buttons to push in order to betray your husband, your marriage and yourself. Acknowledging their existence, and their purpose in life, can be a huge way of avoiding them and an affair.


OP can gain some strength from this but she also needs to understand why she went down that rabbit hole and why her moral compass stopped working.

If OP has a scratch she needs to know how to scratch that need in a healthy way.


----------



## Chris989

I'm not sure if this should be on my thread but I should give a little context to this:

- I asked White Rose (she chose that name because of where she was born, it has nothing to do with any other connotations) to come to bed early a few nights a week
- I asked her to be more intimate (not about sex necessarily, it could be giving a back rub or similar)
- I asked her to sext me sometimes - as she did many times for the OM
- I asked her to stop getting at me about everything
- I asked her to be truthful and to let me know where she was and why as I refused to check up on her
- I asked her to let me "call her names" in bed and talk dirty to me. It sounds weird but it would have helped me cope with all the mind movies somehow. I don't understand it now. Many couples do this as a matter of course.
- I asked her to attend counselling and post on here. Until a week ago she would not do this either.

Unfortunately, she only did a couple of these things occasionally.

I repeatedly warned her that I would leave if this wasn't done. The re-marriage was something that did help but not enough.

I have told her many times over the last 2 years that I will leave but she simply didn't believe me. She would not confront the issues which led to her cheating or her behaviour prior to this.

A few months ago I got drunk, went back to a girl's house from the office after a day of drinking and we kissed. We agreed it wouldn't happen again.

2 weeks ago we were away on holiday with the office I work with (I am now self employed, that was a snap decision and it's going exceptionally well) and we clicked.

Not related to this, when away on this break someone asked me why I had recently remarried. I hadn't told the people there anything and I started to explain.

I was shocked at how angry I became and realised I hadn't healed at all. I have rebuilt myself from the inside to the outside, but the hurt has stayed inside like a tree growing around an obstacle.

I realised I could not continue, came home and told White Rose.

Since then I have slept with the other girl, who is quite a bit younger that White Rose and has, I admit, "turned my head".

I have now left but I did technically cheat on White Rose at the end.

That's it from me. I'll leave it to the thread now but felt I should include the above.

Thanks again to all of you for your immensely kind comments and please don't be too hard on White Rose.

In my mind, the whole thing is "too little too late" but at least she is trying and I would ask that you help her even if only to understand how she might help herself.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

SevenYears said:


> The thing is that I think cheaters will twist things in their mind so that they can believe they are a good person (I'm not saying you are evil though). You re-wrote the marriage to make it seem like your BS was a bad husband so that you could pretend that you were the victim. And now that you've found out that you can't run off to the sunset with OM you've went back to your BS. Because who wants to be alone with no one giving them all the things you get from a relationship. This will be why you are upset. But again you need to twist things in your mind to make it seem like you are a good person so you'll make yourself believe that you feel bad for hurting them. But like I said this isn't why you are upset. You are upset because you think you may end up all alone.
> 
> I know some people may disagree with me but everyone knows that the WS will trick themselves in to thinking the marriage is bad so that they don't have to see what kind of person they are. So why wouldn't they do the same thing when things don't work out with the OM/OW and they decide to go back to the betrayed spouse. It's better to think that than to admit they are again being selfish and only thinking of themselves. They don't want to be alone.


Yes I did twist things to let myself think I was a victim, that is correct. I justified the affair in my mind to allow myself to do it because I wanted to. I realise this now but it has taken a long time because I was not prepared to see I was a bad person. I have seen many other things that were my fault that I blamed on my husband and victimised myself. It was for this reason that I wanted to be back with my husband. I am scared of being alone because I have been with this man exclusively for 22 years and can't think of anyone I would rather be with and have no interest in making any more bad choices where he is concerned.


----------



## GusPolinski

White Rose said:


> Yes I did twist things to let myself think I was a victim, that is correct. I justified the affair in my mind to allow myself to do it because I wanted to. I realise this now but it has taken a long time because I was not prepared to see I was a bad person. I have seen many other things that were my fault that I blamed on my husband and victimised myself. It was for this reason that I wanted to be back with my husband. *I am scared of being alone because I have been with this man exclusively for 22 years* and can't think of anyone I would rather be with and have no interest in making any more bad choices where he is concerned.


*WHAT?!?*

:lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl:


----------



## jim123

White Rose said:


> White rose as a name has nothing to do with anything and certainly not a dig of any kind, feel as sick as you like about that but you are wrong. I do not need Chris for what he has but I do need him because we have a lot of history, see life the same way, still have a great bond and are friends, I also love him very much indeed. I messed up in the biggest way because I wanted to at the time. I genuinely regret this and will for the rest of my days.


It does not make me sick.

Having an affair just because you wanted to at the time is an interesting one. Kind of a oh well, just had to do it and you expected Chris to be honored to have you back.

I am sorry but I do not think you have a lot of respect for Chris. I am glad he is finally standing up for himself.

We can help you but first you need to be honest with yourself and then Chris. You need some empathy that you do not seem to have.


----------



## the guy

Bad behavior has consequences...learn from them and these kinds of consequences will help you live a emotionally healthier life...... your kids deserve that much.

It looks like your old man is history, but you do need to live a good life for the kids.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

You have blamed his anger, your body, your age, his actions, his choice not to believe you and feeling dirty as a reason for low intimacy. You need to learn how too take blame, if you expect any help from this website.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> i thought about that too, but i ask because we have no idea if thats what it is. it could have been something as simple as complete transparency.
> 
> OP needs to clarify that.


I am upset of course because of the pain I have caused him but I am upset at the things I did and why I did them. I am upset that I got things so wrong and did not know what an awful person I was before the affair. I am upset because I want this man so badly not because I am afraid of being alone but because I want to rebuild something I should never have broken. I am upset because I betrayed this man and I should never have given up on him for my own selfishness. I am upset because I am completely in the wrong and did something terrible to a good man. I regret it very much, not for getting caught but for doing it.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

GusPolinski said:


> And vice versa.


I'll let you handle that side. I'm specifically addressing her reasons and excuses.


----------



## ThePheonix

White Rose said:


> I have become better in many ways as a wife and mother from looking at myself and my behaviour.


A bit of corn pone wisdom my girl and a little to the point. Man or woman, when your married for decades and your nearly a half century old before that happens, becoming a first-rate spouse and mother is a little like becoming a first-rate concert pianist when you start playing a fifty. It usually a little too late to make much of an impact.


----------



## alte Dame

White Rose said:


> I have posted here at a late date because Chris wants me to. I did not do it before as I was too scared to and didn't think it would do any good.


This, to me, illustrates well how you simply don't get it. You decide if something will benefit you & if you think it won't, you simply don't do it. Even if Chris explicitly tells you what he needs, you will override that with your own calculus based on your own self-regard. In acting this way, you seem incapable of coming out of yourself to honor and respect the very human being who has committed his life to you. As the worn-out expression goes, it's all about you all of the time.

From what Chris says, it is finally too late. You've been so intent on your misguided calculations re self-preservation, that you have failed to do the very things that would save you. You needed all along to step out of your self-absorption and honor your husband. Honor and respect. Seeing him as a person worthy of that. Instead it has been all about you. Even your hand-wringing now about how you have hurt him is rooted in your fears about what you will do without the emotional and family security that he provides.

Many of us have had difficult times with pregnancy and childbirth. I coped with two dangerously premature births and worried hourly at the time that my kids wouldn't make it. I didn't respond by fading my husband to the background and having a long-term torrid affair with a hound dog loser bad boy. I didn't disrespect my husband day after day. 

So, yes, you need to work on yourself, but for me, the start of that is to work on actually SEEING your husband as the man he is, a man who has deserved your love and unselfish support. You need to start to honor and respect other people. Only then can you start your soul-searching about yourself. If you don't work to learn to respect others, it will just be more of the same - all about you all of the time.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Run Forest Ruuuuunnnnn!!!!!! Don't look back. She thinks of you as a "nice guy". She manipulated you for YEARS. She Lied, Cheated, Hated you, Found you Revolting, all the while, using you for her steady. Yes, it's likely her hormones due to peri played a part. It was her Decision. Those other things just influenced her. She was attracted to a man who was popular, had a little money, was charismatic and was her naughty fantasy. That's dating stuff. She is a user and it's likely this guy doesn't want her for a wife or a steady. Why would he respect her? He used her like an old towel for gym class. Rose, I hope you learn how to take care of yourself. Chris is better off without you. 

You are a good man Chris. You Do NOT deserve this! Make a good life for yourself with someone else. Love your children and have fun with some woman who will respect you for who you are. Find someone who deserves you.


----------



## Chris989

White Rose said:


> I am upset of course because of the pain I have caused him but I am upset at the things I did and why I did them. I am upset that I got things so wrong and did not know what an awful person I was before the affair. I am upset because I want this man so badly not because I am afraid of being alone but because I want to rebuild something I should never have broken. I am upset because I betrayed this man and I should never have given up on him for my own selfishness. I am upset because I am completely in the wrong and did something terrible to a good man. I regret it very much, not for getting caught but for doing it.


Sorry I hate it when couples do this but yet again today you said you regretted telling me you'd been in love, which is the thread which was your undoing in the end.


----------



## GusPolinski

White Rose said:


> I am upset of course because of the pain I have caused him but I am upset at the things I did and why I did them. I am upset that I got things so wrong and did not know what an awful person I was before the affair. I am upset because I want this man so badly not because I am afraid of being alone but because I want to rebuild something I should never have broken. I am upset because I betrayed this man and I should never have given up on him for my own selfishness. I am upset because I am completely in the wrong and did something terrible to a good man. I regret it very much, not for getting caught but for doing it.


Well, that's a start. It's a shame that it took so long.

And Chris...



Chris989 said:


> I'm not sure if this should be on my thread but I should give a little context to this:
> 
> - I asked White Rose (she chose that name because of where she was born, it has nothing to do with any other connotations) to come to bed early a few nights a week
> - I asked her to be more intimate (not about sex necessarily, it could be giving a back rub or similar)
> - I asked her to sext me sometimes - as she did many times for the OM
> - I asked her to stop getting at me about everything
> - I asked her to be truthful and to let me know where she was and why as I refused to check up on her
> - I asked her to let me "call her names" in bed and talk dirty to me. It sounds weird but it would have helped me cope with all the mind movies somehow. I don't understand it now. Many couples do this as a matter of course.
> - I asked her to attend counselling and post on here. Until a week ago she would not do this either.
> 
> Unfortunately, she only did a couple of these things occasionally.
> 
> I repeatedly warned her that I would leave if this wasn't done. The re-marriage was something that did help but not enough.
> 
> I have told her many times over the last 2 years that I will leave but she simply didn't believe me. She would not confront the issues which led to her cheating or her behaviour prior to this.
> 
> *A few months ago I got drunk, went back to a girl's house from the office after a day of drinking and we kissed.* We agreed it wouldn't happen again.
> 
> *2 weeks ago we were away on holiday with the office I work with (I am now self employed, that was a snap decision and it's going exceptionally well) and we clicked.*
> 
> Not related to this, when away on this break someone asked me why I had recently remarried. I hadn't told the people there anything and I started to explain.
> 
> I was shocked at how angry I became and realised I hadn't healed at all. I have rebuilt myself from the inside to the outside, but the hurt has stayed inside like a tree growing around an obstacle.
> 
> I realised I could not continue, came home and told White Rose.
> 
> *Since then I have slept with the other girl, who is quite a bit younger that White Rose and has, I admit, "turned my head".*
> 
> *I have now left but I did technically cheat on White Rose at the end.*
> 
> That's it from me. I'll leave it to the thread now but felt I should include the above.
> 
> Thanks again to all of you for your immensely kind comments and please don't be too hard on White Rose.
> 
> In my mind, the whole thing is "too little too late" but at least she is trying and I would ask that you help her even if only to understand how she might help herself.


...you're not off the hook just yet, pal.


----------



## the guy

Sure, but lets address the False R and the fact that you had a chance to be that kinky dirty girl to your husband and couldn't.

I can't get over why you wanted "it" from OM but not your husband and yet after the confrontation you went back for more from OM.

In short you had some degree of submission for OM but couldn't show this kind of submission to your husband?


----------



## 2ntnuf

What a train wreck....


----------



## the guy

You saw a challange with taking the OM away from his GF. You didn't have any challenges with Chris....until now?


----------



## GusPolinski

the guy said:


> You saw a challange with taking the OM away from his GF. You didn't have any challenges with Chris....until now?


^Keen^ ^insight^


----------



## dental

Your story reminds me of a colleague of my SO. Her affair was a bit longer, I think 5 years or so. A nasty situation. He knew what was going on. She brought his daughters home to play with her sons. The affair was the elephant in the room. Until he reached his limit. Marriage over. Sad thing though, her boys were teenagers during this mess, and were subsequently f*çked in the head by this. The eldest started acting out on his mother, 'the root of all evil' and started being violent with her. The youngest resorted to cannabis. A very sad situation indeed. I hope, OP, that you are capable of repairing some of hurt that you are responsible for. For this I wish you strength and wisdom.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

IIJokerII said:


> She is feeling lost and regret, but the catalyst for these feelings are due to being dumped, not from inner soul searching. If she is honest with herself about what happened then she will have a better understanding about what she wants and who she is, not can be, but is, going forward. If she finds that her marriage must end due to her not feeling fulfilled or unhappy rather than trying to force it than so be it. But she is here now, so it seems she must have some love or other reason to stay with her husband. If she puts forth an effort akin to building a pyramid than the end result will be wondrous. If not, well, we've seen the outcome all too often. Lets hope for the best.


I am feeling lost and regret and have looked at myself very closely, I am taking on all the blame for what happened and I see that I was not good. I am taking this further and seeing a councilor to help this. I am not just sorry I got dumped but because I could have saved this marriage.


----------



## the guy

Its time to just let him go. Maybe when your husband breaks up with his new GF he might come back.

For now focus on being a good co parent and start understanding your self so you can have a healthier relationship the next time around.


----------



## the guy

White Rose said:


> I could have saved this marriage.


There are a lot of things you could have done differently.....so lets stay focused on what you can do right from here on out.


----------



## SevenYears

White Rose said:


> I am upset of course because of the pain I have caused him but I am upset at the things I did and why I did them. I am upset that I got things so wrong and did not know what an awful person I was before the affair. I am upset because I want this man so badly not because I am afraid of being alone but because I want to rebuild something I should never have broken. I am upset because I betrayed this man and I should never have given up on him for my own selfishness. I am upset because I am completely in the wrong and did something terrible to a good man. I regret it very much, not for getting caught but for doing it.


The thing is I know people can do really terrible things and can feel a lot of guilt over it. Things a lot worse than what you have done. I'm pretty sure its over now with you and Chris. As he said its too little too late. All I can advise it to work on yourself with the IC to see how you can change your behaviours and become a better person. It will be a long road ahead. 

And if you end up in a relationship again with someone new to never let this happen again. You should know now the danger of becoming emotionally attached to another man. And that there are men out there who will feign compassion and pretend to care about your problems but in the end they are only after one thing.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

White Rose said:


> I am upset of course because of the pain I have caused him but I am upset at the things I did and why I did them. I am upset that I got things so wrong and did not know what an awful person I was before the affair. I am upset because I want this man so badly not because I am afraid of being alone but because I want to rebuild something I should never have broken. I am upset because I betrayed this man and I should never have given up on him for my own selfishness. I am upset because I am completely in the wrong and did something terrible to a good man. I regret it very much, not for getting caught but for doing it.


Here's the thing for me, I rarely believe remorse when something is taken away. Chris repressed this for his marriage, you and the children. Also, he did it for you twice. I actually left his thread because I was watching a man willing to emasculate himself for a remorseless sounding wife. After a few posts, you sound like you miss what you had, but don't really regret your actions.

I don't always agree with EI, but I do believe she actually understands what she did to her husband. You'd do well too listen to her advice if it is given.

You need to work on moving on. Don't use this board as a way to messages Chris, it won't work. You need to fix you.


----------



## Roselyn

White Rose, let go of Chris. Stop the drama. Accept 110% responsibility for this fiasco. You are not a good wife for any man. You have forged this nightmare for many years. You have done enough damage to Chris and his children. Let the man get some peace of mind. He is deserving of a better life; definitely one without heartaches.

I am 56 years old and a career woman. I have passed menopause and so have my friends. Age is not an excuse to cheat. I've never cheated nor do my friends. If anything else, women who are going through a bad menopause stage would not be able to engage in sex in an affair. They are feeling so lousy physically. This is not you as you were sexually active with your lover and having sex with Chris at the same time. Stop being the victim. Apologize to Chris wholeheartedly by giving him the truth and peace of mind.


----------



## chaos

the guy said:


> OP can gain some strength from this but she also needs to understand why she went down that rabbit hole and why her moral compass stopped working.
> 
> If OP has a scratch she needs to know how to scratch that need in a healthy way.


I agree 100%.

My point is that many women live under the assumption that they would never cheat on their husbands because they believe they are not that kind of person and that they can spot a predator a mile away. What the fail to realize is that the truly adept in the art of seduction use "the frog inside a pot" method in which little by little the temperature of the water inside the pot, is being heated and when then frog finally becomes aware that it is being cooked alive, by then it is already too late. Seldom, do predators try to bed a married woman after they meet her for the first time because they know that their chances of success are slim to none.

The OP mentioned reading Dr Shirley Glass' book "Not Just Friends" which is an excellent book on how it can become too easy for anybody, especially broken people, to fall into an affair. It is just sad she never read it before she started her affair for she just may have avoided opening up a Pandora's box.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I don't think it would have changed a thing chaos. Simply because there were other factors she had little control over. Namely, hormones, opportunities and fantasies. I just don't think she ever thought Chris would have guts enough to leave for good. Even after he read all the men's books, she saw right through him.


----------



## chaos

2ntnuf said:


> I don't think it would have changed a thing chaos. Simply because there were other factors she had little control over. Namely, hormones, opportunities and fantasies. I just don't think she ever thought Chris would have guts enough to leave for good. Even after he read all the men's books, she saw right through him.


Perhaps not, but anything that reduces the chances of the bloody train wreck that infidelity is, IMNSHO, is worth pursuing.


----------



## ConanHub

My nausea left.

WR, are you willing to just work on yourself for yourself, to become a better person?

I believe that would be the best route. Don't try to get Chris back or improve yourself for him. That ship has sailed and I am glad.

Chris deserves good things and happiness and that has not been found in you.

You need to get alone with yourself and your counseling.

Become a better person for the right reasons. Yourself and your children.

I hope you keep posting and make progress for your own sake.

As disgusting as I believe you are, I really hope for you to destroy the evil and tarnish while working to strengthen and develop good and desirable traits.

A first step is to realize that you are good for no one right now. Do not pursue any relationship outside of repairing what you destroyed with your children.


----------



## MattMatt

White Rose said:


> I am feeling lost and regret and have looked at myself very closely, I am taking on all the blame for what happened and I see that I was not good. I am taking this further and seeing a councilor to help this. I am not just sorry I got dumped but because I could have saved this marriage.


If you need another councillor, BACP - British Association for Counselling & Psychotherapy can help you find a local one.

This website can also be of possible assistance CBT Register UK | The online register of CBT therapists for the UK and Ireland


----------



## As'laDain

White Rose, you cheated because you are the kind of person who betrays her husband repeatedly while blaming him for all the terrible things you did to him. your also the kind of person who would do anything to avoid admitting that THAT is who you are. 

the only thing that motivates you to take a look at yourself is the fear of being alone, because you know who you are, and you are afraid of the thought that you are not worthy of love. so when your husband left, you were left with nobody to love you. the fear you have been running from and avoiding isnt just a fear anymore. its reality. you are now willing to do anything to hear someone tell you that you are worth loving.


if you can accept this, that this is who you are, you can change it.


----------



## LongWalk

> - I asked White Rose (she chose that name because of where she was born, it has nothing to do with any other connotations) to come to bed early a few nights a week
> - I asked her to be more intimate (not about sex necessarily, it could be giving a back rub or similar)
> *This desire for more intimacy should have been naturally addressed long ago if she had been trying to bond with you.*
> - I asked her to sext me sometimes - as she did many times for the OM
> *She desired the OM. Her desire for you is much lower.*
> - I asked her to stop getting at me about everything
> *You should have been more alpha. If she had won POSOM, she would have tested the boundaries with shyte tests and done the same to him if he had allowed it, unless he was able to dominate her. Power in relationships is not consistent over the life time of a marriage.
> 
> As men get older and weaker – in part due to the decline of testosterone – women gain power in many relationships.*
> - I asked her to be truthful and to let me know where she was and why as I refused to check up on her
> *She believes, perhaps rightly, that she is no longer going to cheat. But you don't know this for certain.*
> - I asked her to let me "call her names" in bed and talk dirty to me. It sounds weird but it would have helped me cope with all the mind movies somehow. I don't understand it now. Many couples do this as a matter of course.
> *You shouldn't have asked for permission. You should have just done it. Let's be perfectly honest, it's exciting women a woman says "just fvck me" in an animal way. It's completely normal and is a sign of chemistry. You don't have great sexual chemistry.*
> - I asked her to attend counselling and post on here. Until a week ago she would not do this either.
> *We'll she willing to do both now but why? *
> 
> Unfortunately, she only did a couple of these things occasionally.
> 
> I repeatedly warned her that I would leave if this wasn't done. The re-marriage was something that did help but not enough.
> 
> I have told her many times over the last 2 years that I will leave but she simply didn't believe me. She would not confront the issues which led to her cheating or her behaviour prior to this.


Wild monkey sex can be important, exactly replicating the OM's path to her liminal being may not be the right way to go. After all, you don't want to be an imitator. That said, you have a right to an exciting sex life. If she had one with the OM, why not with you, too. Ironically, you may now reach the point that you can have more exciting sex.

Now that you are a cheater (sorry to bring this up Chris) and your former WW wants to sin you back, you may actually be able to say nasty things to her and bang her like a ***** because she'll be trying.

Since you are posting here on her thread I presume you still wish for R at some level.

1) Stop cheating on your W and move home
2) At the very least drop the OW
3) See if you can create the chemistry that you desire
4) Don't be mad or sulk, be happy be yourself

If you don't want to R, file for divorce. Stop unnecessary interaction with White Rose so that the two of you can detach and more on.

Remarriage, who was that for?

What did you think of Road Scholar's thread?

Mrs Mathias?

The vasectomy is was a nasty trick. Castration, really. Do you want to be whole again through a reversal operation? Make White Rose pony up without any conditions.


----------



## MattMatt

2ntnuf said:


> I don't think it would have changed a thing chaos. Simply because there were other factors she had little control over. Namely, hormones, opportunities and fantasies. I just don't think she ever thought Chris would have guts enough to leave for good. Even after he read all the men's books, she saw right through him.


Why did she presume that Chris would not leave her?

Because he was a nice guy? Beta? A doormat?

No to all of those.

She presumed he would not leave her because he loved her.

She assumed that his love for her would be enough.

Ultimately, it wasn't enough and she did lose him.


----------



## ConanHub

LongWalk said:


> Wild monkey sex can be important, exactly replicating the OM's path to her liminal being may not be the right way to go. After all, you don't want to be an imitator. That said, you have a right to an exciting sex life. If she had one with the OM, why not with you, too. Ironically, you may now reach the point that you can have more exciting sex.
> 
> Now that you are a cheater (sorry to bring this up Chris) and your former WW wants to sin you back, you may actually be able to say nasty things to her and bang her like a ***** because she'll be trying.
> 
> Since you are posting here on her thread I presume you still wish for R at some level.
> 
> 1) Stop cheating on your W and move home
> 2) At the very least drop the OW
> 3) See if you can create the chemistry that you desire
> 4) Don't be mad or sulk, be happy be yourself
> 
> If you don't want to R, file for divorce. Stop unnecessary interaction with White Rose so that the two of you can detach and more on.
> 
> Remarriage, who was that for?
> 
> What did you think of Road Scholar's thread?
> 
> Mrs Mathias?
> 
> The vasectomy is was a nasty trick. Castration, really. Do you want to be whole again through a reversal operation? Make White Rose pony up without any conditions.


Could not disagree more. Chris has undergone far too much damage at WR hands.

He should have left before becoming too involved with his GF but I am really finding it hard to be harsh with him.

I wish him as much happiness as possible with someone who will respect him.

WR does NOT need to be in a relationship with anyone, much less Chris.

She absolutely needs to fix herself without a relationship.


----------



## 2ntnuf

MattMatt said:


> Why did she presume that Chris would not leave her?
> 
> Because he was a nice guy? Beta? A doormat?
> 
> No to all of those.
> 
> She presumed he would not leave her because he loved her.
> 
> She assumed that his love for her would be enough.
> 
> Ultimately, it wasn't enough and she did lose him.


Thanks Matt. I think you are right. I don't think love was what she wanted. Methinks she wanted him to ravage her like the badboy did. I just don't think she saw him that way. Now, she's found him a little more interesting, since likely her hormones have settled a bit.


----------



## As'laDain

i think it would be suicide to try to R right now. 

WR needs some serious work. she needs to admit fully to who she is. she has a dirty soul and needs to air it in order to clean it... if that makes any sense. 

right now, she is remorseful and hurting, but has only taken the first step in becoming someone she can be proud of.


----------



## Forest

Brother, this is a little complicated, eh?

Thru memory and what I can glean from this thread, it seems that this is the scenario:

Woman craves attention so much that she ruins her marriage, and cheats with another man to satisfy her ego. then-
proceeds to ruin her husband and other people's lives; then-
realizes that it was stupid; so
wants it all to go away and have things to go back to the way they used to be, with no consequences for her.
She gets to screw around, do what she wants, hurt others, say she's sorry, and be made whole again?

Do I have it right?

I think that cheaters have this unfounded belief that saying "I cheated. I'm sorry" is somehow roughly equivalent to the crushing and soul destroying reality of betrayal. Its not.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I think Chris would be selling himself short if he R'd at all. I think, and it's evident by the affair he's having, which I don't think is right either, that he is still attractive to women. Why not find someone better? Is it that difficult? WR is only the biological mother of his children. They're pretty much grown. Why bother?


----------



## pidge70

I never followed Chris's thread, but Holy Hell! He most definitely has my sympathies. He is obviously one Hell of a man to try as long as he did.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

LongWalk said:


> Sorry that your reconciliation did not succeed.
> 
> White Rose,
> 
> Did Chris know that you had an account on TAM?
> 
> The question of sexual passion that troubles many BS. Couldn't having sex with Chris progressively erase the importance of OM for you? If you made love with Christ didn't the OM cease to exist for the two of you?
> 
> Do you regret admitting to aspects of what you did with OM? Did these facts become obstacles that your marriage crashed into over and over?
> 
> Chris says that your relationship is over. Is hope dead for you?
> 
> Do you believe the remarriage was in some way less than a true commitment?
> 
> Do you wish that you had remained an unmarried couple?
> 
> Did the marriage create new pressure on your relationship?


He knew I could see his account, I didn't do it to snoop. I did intend to post but lost my nerve.
Yes having sex with Chris did erase the memories of the other man and they went quickly. Chris said there were three people in bed with us and he found that difficult. I forgot about the other man quickly and certainly didn't think about him during sex. I thought about what I did ie the betrayal of my husband which made me feel bad about it all.
I lied about aspects of the affair to avoid telling the sordid details but always got found out. I wish I had not told things he didn't ask but he wanted everything out in the open so I should not have lied. Yes some things became issues for example the birth control as it was so hurtful to him. I regret starting the affair most of all.
I have discussed the remarriage with chris and he didn't have the same commitment the second time but did say it was a new start for us at the time. He always believed in the vows but I think did it the second time for the children. I thought it was a new start and he had calmed down a lot by this time and did not mention the affair frequently as before so I felt better about everything.
I was glad to be married again because I thought he was beginning to get over things by doing this, I wanted to be his wife again so much. I don't think it added pressure and just seemed the right thing to do. 
Chris has left, despite what I did we still have a great friendship, share our children and are having space so he can decide if he should stay on his own. As far as he told me he does not intend to divorce me and is trying to sort out his anger and emotions around this. He is very stressed. I am waiting to see how he gets on, I have no intention of looking for anyone else and am happy at home with my girls. I have no desire to get another man and have not lost hope as he has told me he would come back if he could learn to put the anger in a box. I suppose being on his own will let him see if he misses me. I have changed a lot and did have sex regularly with him. I love my husband and have not lost hope but I think it is unlikely. For what I've done I am just grateful that he is my friend but I will be overjoyed if he returns


----------



## As'laDain

you are trying to win him back. 

stop that. you need to win yourself back. you need to become someone you can look at in the mirror.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

azteca1986 said:


> Maybe she's from Yorkshire?


Yes I am from Yorkshire, hence the name. No other reason so stop looking at everything in a bad minded and bitter way.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

White Rose said:


> Yes I am from Yorkshire, hence the name. No other reason so stop looking at everything in a bad minded and bitter way.


County of York actually


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> you are trying to win him back.
> 
> stop that. you need to win yourself back. you need to become someone you can look at in the mirror.


I know, I'm addressing that. I am a better person already but I will take this to the grave. There is no good reason why I did it and I have acknowledged that I was a bad person. I shall never do this again, I feel very uncomfortable thinking about what I did but am truly sorry for doing it to chris.


----------



## the guy

As'laDain said:


> you are trying to win him back.
> 
> stop that. you need to win yourself back. you need to become someone you can look at in the mirror.


Worth repeating!


----------



## harrybrown

If he had an A for as long what would you do?

What does he do with the pain, the loss of self esteem and the rage? 

You can't love someone and put them thru this much pain and the lies are additional pain.

You chose someone else over him for a long time. 

How does he deal with that pain and the limbo from not knowing what is going on?


----------



## bryanp

Do you think that the fact that you had sex with another man of another race for so long was something that Chris down deep could never get over? I assume the both of you did get tested for STD's.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You have blamed his anger, your body, your age, his actions, his choice not to believe you and feeling dirty as a reason for low intimacy. You need to learn how too take blame, if you expect any help from this website.


I totally blame myself, I did not try hard enough when I should. I am looking at why I did this to be a better person.


----------



## As'laDain

ok, so now that we can all agree that WR is/was a terrible person, why not get down to business in putting her back together?

honestly, i dont for a second believe that chris doesnt love her anymore.  his anger is too much right now, but despite that, he STILL wants to see his wife to be taken care of/get better. he sent her here after all. thats a hell of a big broken heart...

so, WR, are you willing to go into detail about how and why you did what you did in order to uncover the things about yourself that you cant stand? once you expose the core flaws in your personality, you can start to grow. you need to identify the very thought patterns that you think. those thougths are what empowered you to do this... so you HAVE to change how you actively think if you are going to change who you are. 


should you decide to do this, you will need to have someone to keep you honest. you already know that you run from the truth. if you want to change who you are, put yourself in a place where you literally cannot hide anymore. personally, i believe in open community settings. it keeps everyone a lot more honest and civil. i dislike one on one counseling because you can hide in counseling. i dislike the closed atmosphere because i have never seen it work. someone always finds a way to hide...

so, church, group therapy, or even here on TAM. but you need someone to be willing to step in and tell the group when your lying about what you have done and said. you need this because you WONT do it otherwise. you wont do it because it WILL FVCKING HURT! we already know you want to lie hide and blameshift when it comes to looking at your own self. we get that. you admit it, so you have taken the first step in growth. but admitting who you are does nothing if you do not want to change it... so account for who you are, what your tendencies will be, and set yourself up for success. 


this is why i love church accountability groups so much... they are effective for a reason. scary, but effective. 

what do you think? are you up to it?


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Roselyn said:


> White Rose, let go of Chris. Stop the drama. Accept 110% responsibility for this fiasco. You are not a good wife for any man. You have forged this nightmare for many years. You have done enough damage to Chris and his children. Let the man get some peace of mind. He is deserving of a better life; definitely one without heartaches.
> 
> I am 56 years old and a career woman. I have passed menopause and so have my friends. Age is not an excuse to cheat. I've never cheated nor do my friends. If anything else, women who are going through a bad menopause stage would not be able to engage in sex in an affair. They are feeling so lousy physically. This is not you as you were sexually active with your lover and having sex with Chris at the same time. Stop being the victim. Apologize to Chris wholeheartedly by giving him the truth and peace of mind.


I only said that was a contributing factor and didnt mean menopause. I was having extremely heavy non stop periods which affected how I could be towards him. I couldnt motivate myself because I felt so guilty not because I didnt love him. ultimately I was lazy and I've lost him.


----------



## Openminded

I remember when Chris updated that he had remarried you, White Rose. I was surprised. Recovering from a major betrayal and creating a new and better marriage is something many try to do but few succeed in any real way. The reason few truly succeed is the difficulty of getting beyond the anger and bitterness and despair and pain and hopelessness that the one person you thought would be forever loyal was not. 

I hope that Chris does what's best for him. And that you both can rebuild your life.


----------



## always_hopefull

White Rose said:


> I only said that was a contributing factor and didnt mean menopause. I was having extremely heavy non stop periods which affected how I could be towards him. *I couldnt motivate myself because I felt so guilty not because I didnt love him*. ultimately I was lazy and I've lost him.


First let me say I'm so sorry that you didn't come to realize how much Chris meant to you until you lost him. Unfortunately I'd like to point out the above in bold, I completely disagree, If you truly loved him you would have been motivated, you would have moved heaven and earth to make things up to him. Unfortunately you realized too late that Chris actually has a limit. 

Please just let him go, he had done far too much, in my humble opinion, and deserves to finally find peace and closure. Learn from your mistakes, be a better you, starting with letting Chris move on.


----------



## As'laDain

WR, all of the terrible things you did to him were not done out of love. love is wanting the best for someone even when you dont feel like loving them. you felt as though you needed him, but you did not love him. 

i say this because love is a verb.


----------



## School bus

Sounds to me that Chris has yet to change, the same "nice guy", and will be back to make the same mistake. She may not cheat again but I don't see this as real "love", like a real version of ILYBNIL where the losers get a life of mediocrity. Shame. The great people of TAM should spend their energy fixing him.


----------



## jim123

As'laDain said:


> ok, so now that we can all agree that WR is/was a terrible person, why not get down to business in putting her back together?
> 
> honestly, i dont for a second believe that chris doesnt love her anymore. his anger is too much right now, but despite that, he STILL wants to see his wife to be taken care of/get better. he sent her here after all. thats a hell of a big broken heart...
> 
> so, WR, are you willing to go into detail about how and why you did what you did in order to uncover the things about yourself that you cant stand? once you expose the core flaws in your personality, you can start to grow. you need to identify the very thought patterns that you think. those thougths are what empowered you to do this... so you HAVE to change how you actively think if you are going to change who you are.
> 
> 
> should you decide to do this, you will need to have someone to keep you honest. you already know that you run from the truth. if you want to change who you are, put yourself in a place where you literally cannot hide anymore. personally, i believe in open community settings. it keeps everyone a lot more honest and civil. i dislike one on one counseling because you can hide in counseling. i dislike the closed atmosphere because i have never seen it work. someone always finds a way to hide...
> 
> so, church, group therapy, or even here on TAM. but you need someone to be willing to step in and tell the group when your lying about what you have done and said. you need this because you WONT do it otherwise. you wont do it because it WILL FVCKING HURT! we already know you want to lie hide and blameshift when it comes to looking at your own self. we get that. you admit it, so you have taken the first step in growth. but admitting who you are does nothing if you do not want to change it... so account for who you are, what your tendencies will be, and set yourself up for success.
> 
> 
> this is why i love church accountability groups so much... they are effective for a reason. scary, but effective.
> 
> what do you think? are you up to it?


She is not terrible nor evil. Just not in love with Chris nor respects him. Now that he had moved out, it has changed.

The only question is should the M continue.


----------



## bfree

WR, I don't think Chris remarried you for the right reasons. I think he did it for everyone but himself. I'm willing to bet that he had to talk himself into it. That's never a good basis for marriage at any time or in any circumstances. The truth is that for him to still feel this angry this late in the process does not bode well for a mutual future. I'm getting the distinct impression that he's detached and I seriously doubt that will change. I echo the sentiments of others that you need to put this chapter of your life behind you and move on. Continue with your counseling. Start making healthy friendships with positive people. Get involved with fulfilling activities.


----------



## As'laDain

jim123 said:


> She is not terrible nor evil. Just not in love with Chris nor respects him. Now that he had moved out, it has changed.
> 
> The only question is should the M continue.


i dont think she is. she is a human being who doesnt love herself. i would really like to see her learn to love herself. 

but im not going to sugar coat it. when you suck at life, you have to admit it before you can actually get better.


----------



## Roselyn

White Rose said:


> I only said that was a contributing factor and didnt mean menopause. I was having extremely heavy non stop periods which affected how I could be towards him. I couldnt motivate myself because I felt so guilty not because I didnt love him. ultimately I was lazy and I've lost him.


Once again, White Rose, be honest. You were on birth control pills and also had shots. Birth control pills are given to women with heavy period flows. You are talking to a woman here who has been married ongoing for 35 years.

You found the time and effort to run to the other man for the second time. The other man only wanted you for sex. You don't love Chris as much as the other man. You don't want to lose Chris because of his financial support. Let Chris have a decent life. You still believe that he will return to you. I hope that he can see the light that he is deserving of a peaceful and happy life. I don't believe that you can deliver what he needs.


----------



## 2ntnuf

As'laDain said:


> i dont think she is. she is a human being who doesnt love herself. i would really like to see her learn to love herself.
> 
> but im not going to sugar coat it. when you suck at life, you have to admit it before you can actually get better.


I think she does love herself. At least, she did love herself and her AP. Love is a verb. There was a lot of lovin' between her and the AP.

Do you think some of the things she did were vicious? Do you think some of the things she did were dishonorable or malicious? 

I don't think she sucks at life, just commitment to Chris. I think she is likely a good mother to her children and a good daughter. She stinks at marriage, too. Life? I think she did pretty well for herself. She married a guy who loved her. She had two children who are healthy and probably happy. She married a guy who accomplished some things in life and makes a decent living and has a decent house that she lives in. She married a guy who was devoted to her and dedicated to giving his all, at least to a point. She married a strong man who, after being torn apart inside, still offered himself and his mental, emotional an financial well-being as a sacrifice to try one more time, up to a point. She, while carrying on a life at home, found a way to make time for another man who showed her the things that she could not tell Chris she needed. He gave her the things she dreamt of in life, and kept is secret for a long time. 

Suck at life? Not sure.


----------



## LongWalk

Birth control was for OM's pleasure in all likelihood, but even if there was a medical reason, you knew it meant you could sex without a condom.

With a condom OM probably was not interested.

You were not too lazy to do the things Chris wanted. You did not want to meet his needs.

Now that he has decided to leave you, you are willing to work at it.

Your remaining married while he has other women has what purpose? Economic protection for him?

Does he want to get you back?

The length of the affair was over two years.


----------



## jim123

2ntnuf said:


> I think she does love herself. At least, she did love herself and her AP. Love is a verb. There was a lot of lovin' between her and the AP.
> 
> Do you think some of the things she did were vicious? Do you think some of the things she did were dishonorable or malicious?
> 
> I don't think she sucks at life, just commitment to Chris. I think she is likely a good mother to her children and a good daughter. She stinks at marriage, too. Life? I think she did pretty well for herself. She married a guy who loved her. She had two children who are healthy and probably happy. She married a guy who accomplished some things in life and makes a decent living and has a decent house that she lives in. She married a guy who was devoted to her and dedicated to giving his all, at least to a point. She married a strong man who, after being torn apart inside, still offered himself and his mental, emotional an financial well-being as a sacrifice to try one more time, up to a point. She, while carrying on a life at home, found a way to make time for another man who showed her the things that she could not tell Chris she needed. He gave her the things she dreamt of in life, and kept is secret for a long time.
> 
> Suck at life? Not sure.



the only of life that did not work out or sucked is that OM was not the guy she thought otherwise she would be with him and not Chris.

OP had no plan past being with OM and when that did not work out, Chris became her lifeboat.

She did not work hard in R. This is what happens.


----------



## warlock07

Chris989 said:


> I'm not sure if this should be on my thread but I should give a little context to this:
> 
> - I asked White Rose (she chose that name because of where she was born, it has nothing to do with any other connotations) to come to bed early a few nights a week
> - I asked her to be more intimate (not about sex necessarily, it could be giving a back rub or similar)
> - I asked her to sext me sometimes - as she did many times for the OM
> - I asked her to stop getting at me about everything
> - I asked her to be truthful and to let me know where she was and why as I refused to check up on her
> - I asked her to let me "call her names" in bed and talk dirty to me. It sounds weird but it would have helped me cope with all the mind movies somehow. I don't understand it now. Many couples do this as a matter of course.
> - I asked her to attend counselling and post on here. Until a week ago she would not do this either.
> 
> Unfortunately, she only did a couple of these things occasionally.
> 
> I repeatedly warned her that I would leave if this wasn't done. The re-marriage was something that did help but not enough.
> 
> I have told her many times over the last 2 years that I will leave but she simply didn't believe me. She would not confront the issues which led to her cheating or her behaviour prior to this.
> 
> A few months ago I got drunk, went back to a girl's house from the office after a day of drinking and we kissed. We agreed it wouldn't happen again.
> 
> 2 weeks ago we were away on holiday with the office I work with (I am now self employed, that was a snap decision and it's going exceptionally well) and we clicked.
> 
> Not related to this, when away on this break someone asked me why I had recently remarried. I hadn't told the people there anything and I started to explain.
> 
> I was shocked at how angry I became and realised I hadn't healed at all. I have rebuilt myself from the inside to the outside, but the hurt has stayed inside like a tree growing around an obstacle.
> 
> I realised I could not continue, came home and told White Rose.
> 
> Since then I have slept with the other girl, who is quite a bit younger that White Rose and has, I admit, "turned my head".
> 
> I have now left but I did technically cheat on White Rose at the end.
> 
> That's it from me. I'll leave it to the thread now but felt I should include the above.
> 
> Thanks again to all of you for your immensely kind comments and please don't be too hard on White Rose.
> 
> In my mind, the whole thing is "too little too late" but at least she is trying and I would ask that you help her even if only to understand how she might help herself.


----------



## As'laDain

2ntnuf said:


> I think she does love herself. At least, she did love herself and her AP. Love is a verb. There was a lot of lovin' between her and the AP.
> 
> i disagree. what she did with the AP was not love. and she certainly didnt love herself. you dont love yourself by destroying the good things in your life. she may have loved her flesh, but she did not love who she was. she did not love her soul.
> 
> Do you think some of the things she did were vicious? Do you think some of the things she did were dishonorable or malicious?
> dont you? would you do them? what would you think of someone who felt and showed no remorse for doing such things? and im sure she felt remorse and guilt as well. she just actively avoided accepting it and tried to deny it to herself so that she could do those things. then later on, she let her feelings stop her from being able to do what he needed to reconcile. she had the ability to do any of them...
> 
> I don't think she sucks at life, just commitment to Chris. I think she is likely a good mother to her children and a good daughter. She stinks at marriage, too. Life? I think she did pretty well for herself. She married a guy who loved her. She had two children who are healthy and probably happy. She married a guy who accomplished some things in life and makes a decent living and has a decent house that she lives in. She married a guy who was devoted to her and dedicated to giving his all, at least to a point. She married a strong man who, after being torn apart inside, still offered himself and his mental, emotional an financial well-being as a sacrifice to try one more time, up to a point. She, while carrying on a life at home, found a way to make time for another man who showed her the things that she could not tell Chris she needed. He gave her the things she dreamt of in life, and kept is secret for a long time.
> 
> Suck at life? Not sure.
> 
> well im sure. you forgot to mention that she had all those things and destroyed it. she literally could have had her fantasy man in her husband if she could just tell him what she needed. the guy obviously loved her very deeply, im sure he would have been willing to meet her needs. she had that and destroyed it. yes, i would say she sucks at life.


all that said, it doesnt do her any good to sugar coat things. she let her feelings decide her actions. maybe thats her only real problem... but whatever it is, it obviously doesnt work. she needs to learn how to keep herself from ever doing such things again. she needs to learn effective coping strategies and practice them until she has faith in them, and ultimately, herself. 

whats funny is that i bet she would be willing to die for chris. and if you ask what would be worth killing him for, she would say nothing. but the feelings she was chasing were worth destroying him for, in the end. and im sure she never thought of it that way. im sure she thought that she would never destroy him. the alternative thought would have stopped her in her tracks because it would have been extremely painful. thats where the lack of empathy comes from. 

so why does she feel so ****ty that she needed the affair in order to have that feeling? if she knew how to find those feelings in a productive way dont you think she would have? 


if she is going to truly heal, she HAS to be willing to face the ugly truth of her own actions, choices, and her own thinking. she may not deserve better, but hey, she is kinda fvcked up. she is still _worth_ better.


----------



## warlock07

Never thought I would sympathize with Chris's wife.

Regardless of what happened, I think how Chris ended it was hurtful to his wife and was of poor taste.


----------



## warlock07

White Rose said:


> He wanted me to be very sexual and have regular me and him time ie early nights where I gave him attention. I was sexual with him, not as much as he wanted but I wasn't much good at putting the early nights aside. I work until 21.00hours 4 nights a week but have started to do this recently which was too little too late. I felt very dirty and unsexy as a result of what I did, it took a long time to be able to feel better about this. I also had some female issues going on which made it difficult to be intimate. Chris thought this was to do with the contraception I had taken for the OM but I had a history of these problems since my second child and I am at the age women often come up against these problems. We argued a lot and looking back it was not nice. I took the view anything he called me was out of character and because he was hurt so took it on the chin. This was not good though when you're trying to be intimate. I now concede that I should have made more effort but it was hard to with the rows we had and the way I was starting to not like myself.




What kind of arguments were they ?


----------



## happy as a clam

:wtf:

I, for one, feel nauseous reading this thread.

Poor Chris... started *eighteen* different threads about YOU and YOUR affair. From reading through all of them, your affair nearly killed him. In life, what goes around comes around. I surely hope that old adage is true in this case.

Despite my poor opinion of you White Rose, I wish you and Chris the very best. But I know what I REALLY hope he will do.

Good luck. It must be a lonely place where you are right now.


----------



## Jasel

Maybe you should do the right thing and pull the plug on the marriage yourself. Honestly I thought Chris was ****ing insane when he remarried you, let alone not moving out after the divorce which I thought was also a huge mistake, but at the end of the day it's his marriage and his life so I kept that opinion to myself.

For some reason, and TBH I don't even care why at this point, he still can't seem to completely pull the plug. Or who knows maybe he really is done and didn't want to hurt you too bad by pretending you actually still have a chance. The kindest thing you could do is put him out of his misery and end things on your own. Let him be with someone who will actually make him happy.


----------



## 2ntnuf

As'laDain said:


> all that said, it doesnt do her any good to sugar coat things. she let her feelings decide her actions. maybe thats her only real problem... but whatever it is, it obviously doesnt work. she needs to learn how to keep herself from ever doing such things again. she needs to learn effective coping strategies and practice them until she has faith in them, and ultimately, herself.
> 
> whats funny is that i bet she would be willing to die for chris. and if you ask what would be worth killing him for, she would say nothing. but the feelings she was chasing were worth destroying him for, in the end. and im sure she never thought of it that way. im sure she thought that she would never destroy him. the alternative thought would have stopped her in her tracks because it would have been extremely painful. thats where the lack of empathy comes from.
> 
> *so why does she feel so ****ty that she needed the affair in order to have that feeling? if she knew how to find those feelings in a productive way dont you think she would have? *
> 
> 
> if she is going to truly heal, she HAS to be willing to face the ugly truth of her own actions, choices, and her own thinking. she may not deserve better, but hey, she is kinda fvcked up. she is still _worth_ better.


Good questions. I would guess Chris wasn't meeting her needs, but she will have to answer. What those were, she will have to say. Why he wasn't meeting them? That's for him to explain.

I think she will have to answer if she thought it was more productive to find another man or stick with Chris. Seems obvious, but only she knows the answer. 

Not sure what you mean by that last paragraph. She chose what she wanted. Not sure what you are implying with the deserved and worth comments? We choose what we want to do and live with the consequences. Sometimes they work out and sometimes they don't. 

It's obvious she is attractive, or she wouldn't have been able to have an affair. She has things to offer someone.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Seems to me that you need to start the 180. Start exercising, eating well, and all of the other things in the instructions for that 180. Those will help you detach and move forward with as little pain as possible.

Here you go: http://www.network54.com/Forum/233195/thread/1302875291/last-1302891381/The+180

Also: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/faq_bs.asp#FAQ11


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

2ntnuf said:


> It's obvious she is attractive, or she wouldn't have been able to have an affair.


We did need some comedy in this thread. As evidenced by many a thread, news or entrainment rags ugliness, weight, height, social status or any other descriptor does not prevent an affair.


----------



## warlock07

I am not even sure what Chris is thinking now ? Is this his revenge affair / Is he leaving her for real this time? he is now with a woman who is having an affair with a married guy, regardless of his situation. 

He never should have married if he was going to start an affair, that too in a few months.


----------



## warlock07

And posters giving her harsh advice,(I have been guilty of the same previously), please refrain from posting something that might push her over the edge. She is not in the best mental frame right now(as evidenced by her posts).

Please exercise discretion before making your posts. There is a real person behind the screen name.


----------



## As'laDain

2ntnuf said:


> Not sure what you mean by that last paragraph. She chose what she wanted. Not sure what you are implying with the deserved and worth comments? We choose what we want to do and live with the consequences. Sometimes they work out and sometimes they don't.


i dont care how messed up you are, everyone is still worth being loved. and i dont mean the kind of romantic fantasy euphoria that happens between a man and a woman. i mean worth fighting for, even worth fighting them for. parents discipline their children because they want them to be successful in life. sergeants discipline their soldiers because they want them to survive combat. sometimes, love hurts. but its honest. 

every last one of us are worth that.


----------



## As'laDain

warlock07 said:


> I am not even sure what Chris is thinking now ? Is this his revenge affair / Is he leaving her for real this time? he is now with a woman who is having an affair with a married guy, regardless of his situation.
> 
> He never should have married if he was going to start an affair, that too in a few months.


he gave up. i could be wrong, but i think he just lost hope. like, after all this time, he is still angry... so he will never be able to get past this. so why stay? and why try? no amount of effort was enough to erase his anger...


----------



## jim123

As'laDain said:


> i dont care how messed up you are, everyone is still worth being loved. and i dont mean the kind of romantic fantasy euphoria that happens between a man and a woman. i mean worth fighting for, even s worth fighting them for. parents discipline their children because they want them to be successful in life. sergeants discipline their soldiers because they want them to survive combat. sometimes, love hurts. but its honest.
> 
> every last one of us are worth that.


You are correct. However, it does not mean it has to be Chris.

She had two years and says I just got lazy. She did not fight for anything. Chris flat out put in 100% and she got lazy.

Chris needs someone to love him.


----------



## manticore

I was wondering for who my first post would be directed. for Chris for his wife?, but no my first post would be for other regulars, specially those who folllowed chris.

People (and you know who you are (and I said this even if I like most of you and your posts)) you can not say *"hoo chris you remarried congrats is the best for you I am so happy for you, I am sure everything will be flowers from now on, and is good you forgave your wife and decided to move on with her under you circumstances"*. you either agree with his reconcilation all the way or disagree with it, if you are just going to let The op hear whatever he wants to hear at the moment then this forum lose his porpuse, so bashing his wife now seems like hipocrecy to me.

Chris, you are doing now what you should have done before, just like Betrayeddad did, he made his XW move he had time to reflect on his feelings and objetively see his circumstances and he took te best decission for his and his future without his XW direct influence, unfotunately you are now doing it under horrible circumstances, you remarried, now you have slept with another woman after pleading loyalty and vows again, and now your kids form their perspective saw both their parents lost their moral ground and in their mind at least both have cheated. (tell me about kids seeing cheating parents), you are still one of my favorite guys here, and I hope the best outcome for your situation.

WR, I honestly wonder why are you here?, honestly i don't feel that you can't get any useful advice here, if anything you are going to get insults, demeaning comments and anyone who had read all chris threads will try to make you feel like less than a human, my advice move on with your life respect chris decission, don't build hope for reconcilation and don't think that comming here for punishment will give you points with chris, I think that almost any human had room to improve him/herself and to be a better human being, in your case i think you should focus in the relationship with your daughters and teach them how not make the same mistakes you did, how the folish thrill you seek was not worth all the pain you are having and seeing in your love ones so they don't repeat the same pattern.

there are many reasons of why i think you honestly did not loved chris, and you were triying to save your plan B for not staying alone as:

- many times you warned chris of how you were gonna kill yourself and make horrible drama scenes for him trying to give him guilt trips but that was abusing of his feelings for you and as mother of his daughters, not once you did it for the OM who was supposed to be you love at the moment(because you knew it would not have effect on him), which means that those acts were plain clear manipulation and not real bahaviour cause of your feelings.

- you bad mouthed chris to friends and family making, to the point of humiliating here leaving the perfect scenary to leave hi as fast as the OM told you he wanted and then would be a background of ho bad your realtionship with chris was.

- You had no problems in letting certain persons know about your a affair even to a public level, because in your mind you were already a couple so you had no problems with it.

- You did not considered reconcilation or any kind of emotional approach to chris until the OM after 2 1/2 of using you left clear that wanted nothing to do with you, which means you regreted nothing with him until you knew you could not have him.

- and you did things for him (not just in the bedroom) that you would not have done for chris never in your life if he had not know of them, and is sad that he have to had seconds in that regard.

I I have to bee honest with you I was and am one of the biggest anemies of your reconcilation, in my oppinion even if you have honestly now fall in love wiht chris again, your reasons were far from honest to seek reconcilation and you were trying just damage control trying to save at least your status quo given that you could not had the man you wanted. 

Honest advice, as for you being the OP and having you wellfare in mind, forget chris, I don't think he will be able to fogive you at heart even if he wants, and now that another woman has appered she will apply the techniqe that many new partner do when they know the Xpatner has cheted (specially women apelling to the man ego) "I don't know how could she betray you , you are worth soo much I would never do that to you........", the best for you is rebuilding your life just consiredering him a friend and partner as the father of your daughters, improve yourself but not to make him come to you, but to make yourself a better person who will not commit the same mistakes, and if he in the end can reconcile with the whole idea leaving all the anger behind the you will be in a better place to form a new relatanshi with him


----------



## As'laDain

jim123 said:


> You are correct. However, it does not mean it has to be Chris.
> 
> She had two years and says I just got lazy. She did not fight for anything. Chris flat out put in 100% and she got lazy.
> 
> Chris needs someone to love him.


your right. i wouldnt put chris up to it anyway, unless he wanted to do it. he has to deal with his own pain.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

As'laDain said:


> no amount of effort was enough to erase his anger...


I don't think they ever dealt with his anger. She mentioned he said he needs to put it in a box for them to have a chance. Compartmentalization of anger is never healthy.


----------



## As'laDain

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I don't think they ever dealt with his anger. She mentioned he said he needs to put it in a box for them to have a chance. Compartmentalization of anger is never healthy.


yeah... when you deny how you feel, it comes back to bite you in the ass. all it does is make you feel like you cant help how you feel. thats a good example of the opposite of what works. 

what works is accepting that you feel such and such way and being honest with yourself. he probably felt like he had no choice but to try and box it up and ignore it because his wife wouldnt give him what he needed in order to let go of the anger.


----------



## NoChoice

WR,
I have read this entire thread and one thing stands out to me more than all the rest. A few pages back you mentioned being "uncomfortable". Uncomfortable is how you feel when your shoes are too tight. Uncomfortable is how you feel when you have a slight case of indigestion. What you should be feeling is devastation like what is felt during a massive coronary event because that is what this was to your H.

Look, words come easy and they have little meaning without actions. Your words are flowing now as your H is leaving but actions may have prevented his departure. If you are ever to have a healthy relationship you must overcome your selfishness. YOU felt dirty, YOU felt ashamed, YOU felt lazy, YOU felt...... How did Chris feel? You seem to be living in some sort of fantasy wherein you are the sun and all life revolves around you.

"I will be thrilled if he comes back"....will he? Will you see to it that he is thrilled? There is a saying that I find great truth in and that is "if a person wants to do something badly enough they will find a way, if not, they will find an excuse".

I sincerely believe that you still do not feel the depth of pain and anguish that you have caused. I am not sure you are capable of doing so. I do know however, that unless you are able to put others ahead of yourself then a real relationship is not in your future with Chris or anyone else for that matter.

No one knows you better than you. You know if your words are sincere but others do also by your actions. Your actions have not coincided with your words. "Too little too late" is just another way of saying I didn't care enough to do anything until I absolutely had to for MY own benefit.

If the OM called you up right now and said he was ready to commit to you and only you from now on what would you do? Do not answer me...answer yourself, truthfully. If Chris decides he can give your marriage yet another chance then you had better know the answer for this OM and every other OM from now on, forever. You should also ask yourself what you will do if Chris comes back, not what you say you will do but what you actually will do.

You have been given more chances than most WSs and if Chris gives you another it would be just short of a miracle. How will you treat it? You must honestly ask yourself because if you mess it up again, to be given yet another chance would be a full-feldged, walk on water miracle.

I sincerely hope your words are true but they do not ring true to me. I feel they are the desperate words of a person about to lose the family they have known. No one can make you a better person except you, no counselor, therapist, drug, minister or deity. They can offer support, encouragement and even something to believe in but none of that will change you without your direct participation and desire to change. I really hope you can put forth that effort and be what Chris and your family need you to be. I wish you every good fortune but it is up to you to decide what you want to be, once and for all and then live the remainder of your life accordingly.


----------



## Chris989

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I don't think they ever dealt with his anger. She mentioned he said he needs to put it in a box for them to have a chance. Compartmentalization of anger is never healthy.


I said I need to be able to deal with it all. To take it out of this box and deal with the feelings, or at least understand that I can't for now and must return to it when I can.

This feelings will fester inside me until they are dealt with and it was my realisation of this that led me to leaving more or less immediately.

Warlock makes a good point by the way: getting involved with another woman was wrong. It is also seemingly complicated and something I think I must end pretty quickly. Ultimately though it was shockingly bad behaviour on my part.

Now this last bit will sound awful but despite this I simply cannot bring myself to care about how bad that was but I am guessing it's my personal rationalisation hamster working away there.


----------



## ConanHub

Chris989 said:


> I said I need to be able to deal with it all. To take it out of this box and deal with the feelings, or at least understand that I can't for now and must return to it when I can.
> 
> This feelings will fester inside me until they are dealt with and it was my realisation of this that led me to leaving more or less immediately.
> 
> Warlock makes a good point by the way: getting involved with another woman was wrong. It is also seemingly complicated and something I think I must end pretty quickly. Ultimately though it was shockingly bad behaviour on my part.
> 
> Now this last bit will sound awful but despite this I simply cannot bring myself to care about how bad that was but I am guessing it's my personal rationalisation hamster working away there.


Take your time Chris. You have been through hell more than once. For some reason, I am having trouble being angry at you for your GF. I just hope you don't hurt her.


----------



## EI

ConanHub said:


> Take your time Chris. You have been through hell more than once. For some reason, I am having trouble being angry at you for your GF. I just hope you don't hurt her.


Sorry to disagree with you Conan, but GF is NO prize. She's having an affair with a married man. So, if SHE gets hurt, she has ONLY herself to blame. You know this.


----------



## GusPolinski

EI said:


> Sorry to disagree with you Conan, but GF is NO prize. She's having an affair with a married man. So, if SHE gets hurt, she has ONLY herself to blame. You know this.


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## ConanHub

EI said:


> Sorry to disagree with you Conan, but GF is NO prize. She's having an affair with a married man. So, if SHE gets hurt, she has ONLY herself to blame. You know this.


Did not say I agree and have said he should have waited until separating to proceed with her. I cannot bring myself to be mad at him however. I fully believe his current marriage to be a very bad joke at best.


----------



## Mr Blunt

White Rose

*What has transpired with you and Chris has caused permanent damage*. I am sure you already know this but maybe your hope that Chris will come back may happen. However, if Chris comes back then you will have to settle for less than a deep loving relationship because of the damage already done. You probably already know that also but at this point you are desperate and wanting Chris back at almost any cost. If Chris does come back then you will be very elated for a time but eventually the damage that has been done will affect your relationship so that you will probably not be real happy with what the relationship finally settles down to.


There is some similarity in you and Chris’s situation and mine and my wife, however there are some differences also. In our case I divorced her and then we came back together. I made her prove her sincerity for over 4 years then remarried her. It has been over 20 years since D-day and we have improved our relationship in some areas. However, there are permanent damages that will never go away and therefore we will never have the deep all around love that was possible before the affair. I still have a degree of love for my wife but there is permanent damage that will never heal and that keeps us from having the deep all-encompassing love that we all dream of. 

My wife is a good person that has many good qualities it is just that my admiration for her in certain areas is dead. We have built on other areas in our relationship and have a marriage that is average and above average at times. We will never have a great marriage.


One of my main points in writing you this posts is so that you do not get an expectation that is not possible. Also, I hope that you take actions in your life so that you can be satisfied if you and Chris wind up just being friends or having an average marriage but not a great marriage. I know you may be satisfied with any positive relationship you get from Chris from what it is right now. However, you probably will not be satisfied with that that level of relationship in 10-20 years from now unless you know what level can be achieved and train yourself to be content with that level.


As for you personally, aside from your relationship with Chris, you can improve in your self-acceptance and not be so negative about what your have done. You are a valuable person to your children and you should know that you can be a valuable person to yourself and maybe you already are. 

As for your relationship with Chris you have made a series of horrible choices and you will pay for as you already have been paying for that. Being married to Chris or having a much better relationship with Chris is not your whole life. *You can still have a decent life but it will not include a deep loving relationship with Chris. You will do yourself a favor by starting to accept this truth.*

We have all made serious mistakes in life but we just have to accept the natural consequences and keep improving our lives. *You can still be a very valuable person to yourself, your children, and your grandchildren.* Just do not expect to have a deep loving relationship with Chris. You probably will not have a deep loving relationship with any man but then again you maybe an exception to the rule.

These are just my opinions and may not apply to you but having lived your scenario somewhat for over 20 years that is what I see. White Rose I hope that you improve yourself because you still have something to give but it is just that none of us wind up with 100% of our potential. 
*
Life can be good at 80%-90%*

Blunt


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

manticore said:


> I was wondering for who my first post would be directed. for Chris for his wife?, but no my first post would be for other regulars, specially those who folllowed chris.
> 
> People (and you know who you are (and I said this even if I like most of you and your posts)) you can not say *"hoo chris you remarried congrats is the best for you I am so happy for you, I am sure everything will be flowers from now on, and is good you forgave your wife and decided to move on with her under you circumstances"*. you either agree with his reconcilation all the way or disagree with it, if you are just going to let The op hear whatever he wants to hear at the moment then this forum lose his porpuse, so bashing his wife now seems like hipocrecy to me.
> 
> Chris, you are doing now what you should have done before, just like Betrayeddad did, he made his XW move he had time to reflect on his feelings and objetively see his circumstances and he took te best decission for his and his future without his XW direct influence, unfotunately you are now doing it under horrible circumstances, you remarried, now you have slept with another woman after pleading loyalty and vows again, and now your kids form their perspective saw both their parents lost their moral ground and in their mind at least both have cheated. (tell me about kids seeing cheating parents), you are still one of my favorite guys here, and I hope the best outcome for your situation.
> 
> WR, I honestly wonder why are you here?, honestly i don't feel that you can't get any useful advice here, if anything you are going to get insults, demeaning comments and anyone who had read all chris threads will try to make you feel like less than a human, my advice move on with your life respect chris decission, don't build hope for reconcilation and don't think that comming here for punishment will give you points with chris, I think that almost any human had room to improve him/herself and to be a better human being, in your case i think you should focus in the relationship with your daughters and teach them how not make the same mistakes you did, how the folish thrill you seek was not worth all the pain you are having and seeing in your love ones so they don't repeat the same pattern.
> 
> there are many reasons of why i think you honestly did not loved chris, and you were triying to save your plan B for not staying alone as:
> 
> - many times you warned chris of how you were gonna kill yourself and make horrible drama scenes for him trying to give him guilt trips but that was abusing of his feelings for you and as mother of his daughters, not once you did it for the OM who was supposed to be you love at the moment(because you knew it would not have effect on him), which means that those acts were plain clear manipulation and not real bahaviour cause of your feelings.
> 
> - you bad mouthed chris to friends and family making, to the point of humiliating here leaving the perfect scenary to leave hi as fast as the OM told you he wanted and then would be a background of ho bad your realtionship with chris was.
> 
> - You had no problems in letting certain persons know about your a affair even to a public level, because in your mind you were already a couple so you had no problems with it.
> 
> - You did not considered reconcilation or any kind of emotional approach to chris until the OM after 2 1/2 of using you left clear that wanted nothing to do with you, which means you regreted nothing with him until you knew you could not have him.
> 
> - and you did things for him (not just in the bedroom) that you would not have done for chris never in your life if he had not know of them, and is sad that he have to had seconds in that regard.
> 
> I I have to bee honest with you I was and am one of the biggest anemies of your reconcilation, in my oppinion even if you have honestly now fall in love wiht chris again, your reasons were far from honest to seek reconcilation and you were trying just damage control trying to save at least your status quo given that you could not had the man you wanted.
> 
> Honest advice, as for you being the OP and having you wellfare in mind, forget chris, I don't think he will be able to fogive you at heart even if he wants, and now that another woman has appered she will apply the techniqe that many new partner do when they know the Xpatner has cheted (specially women apelling to the man ego) "I don't know how could she betray you , you are worth soo much I would never do that to you........", the best for you is rebuilding your life just consiredering him a friend and partner as the father of your daughters, improve yourself but not to make him come to you, but to make yourself a better person who will not commit the same mistakes, and if he in the end can reconcile with the whole idea leaving all the anger behind the you will be in a better place to form a new relatanshi with him


Thank you, reading all this has been sickening and turned my stomach at what it has done. I NEED to look at these issues. I am going to take many of the points to my therapy because I don't want to be told what I want to hear but how I can become a better person and I know that involves some real changes. I do now understand myself a lot better and feel I have put in some changes but not enough. 
I am concentrating on my girls and they do not think cheating is good, I have told them the destruction it causes, they are intelligent girls, nobody needs to worry about them doing this. 
I do need to get to the bottom of why I did all this and treated another human being so badly. My door is open to Chris, we are friends and if he ever wanted me back I'd be honored, that's up to him. He also needs to find what he feels about all this because he thought he was in a place where he could deal with it and clearly isn't. 
I have no doubt now that if I'd responded differently this would be a good R


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Mr Blunt said:


> White Rose
> 
> *What has transpired with you and Chris has caused permanent damage*. I am sure you already know this but maybe your hope that Chris will come back may happen. However, if Chris comes back then you will have to settle for less than a deep loving relationship because of the damage already done. You probably already know that also but at this point you are desperate and wanting Chris back at almost any cost. If Chris does come back then you will be very elated for a time but eventually the damage that has been done will affect your relationship so that you will probably not be real happy with what the relationship finally settles down to.
> 
> 
> There is some similarity in you and Chris’s situation and mine and my wife, however there are some differences also. In our case I divorced her and then we came back together. I made her prove her sincerity for over 4 years then remarried her. It has been over 20 years since D-day and we have improved our relationship in some areas. However, there are permanent damages that will never go away and therefore we will never have the deep all around love that was possible before the affair. I still have a degree of love for my wife but there is permanent damage that will never heal and that keeps us from having the deep all-encompassing love that we all dream of.
> 
> My wife is a good person that has many good qualities it is just that my admiration for her in certain areas is dead. We have built on other areas in our relationship and have a marriage that is average and above average at times. We will never have a great marriage.
> 
> 
> One of my main points in writing you this posts is so that you do not get an expectation that is not possible. Also, I hope that you take actions in your life so that you can be satisfied if you and Chris wind up just being friends or having an average marriage but not a great marriage. I know you may be satisfied with any positive relationship you get from Chris from what it is right now. However, you probably will not be satisfied with that that level of relationship in 10-20 years from now unless you know what level can be achieved and train yourself to be content with that level.
> 
> 
> As for you personally, aside from your relationship with Chris, you can improve in your self-acceptance and not be so negative about what your have done. You are a valuable person to your children and you should know that you can be a valuable person to yourself and maybe you already are.
> 
> As for your relationship with Chris you have made a series of horrible choices and you will pay for as you already have been paying for that. Being married to Chris or having a much better relationship with Chris is not your whole life. *You can still have a decent life but it will not include a deep loving relationship with Chris. You will do yourself a favor by starting to accept this truth.*
> 
> We have all made serious mistakes in life but we just have to accept the natural consequences and keep improving our lives. *You can still be a very valuable person to yourself, your children, and your grandchildren.* Just do not expect to have a deep loving relationship with Chris. You probably will not have a deep loving relationship with any man but then again you maybe an exception to the rule.
> 
> These are just my opinions and may not apply to you but having lived your scenario somewhat for over 20 years that is what I see. White Rose I hope that you improve yourself because you still have something to give but it is just that none of us wind up with 100% of our potential.
> *
> Life can be good at 80%-90%*
> 
> Blunt


That sounds like good advice. Thanks


----------



## G.J.

White Rose said:


> I have no doubt now that if I'd responded differently this would be a good R


What would you really do if at a later date Chriss is able to work through his animosity of what you did.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE WAY YOU SHOULD RESPOND ?


----------



## G.J.

Chris989 said:


> I said I need to be able to deal with it all. To take it out of this box and deal with the feelings, or at least understand that I can't for now and must return to it when I can.
> 
> This feelings will fester inside me until they are dealt with and it was my realisation of this that led me to leaving more or less immediately.
> 
> Warlock makes a good point by the way: *getting involved with another woman was wrong. It is also seemingly complicated and something I think I must end pretty quickly *Ultimately though it was shockingly bad behaviour on my part.
> 
> Now this last bit will sound awful but despite this I simply cannot bring myself to care about how bad that was but I am guessing it's my personal rationalisation hamster working away there.


It would certainly mess you up more that's for sure

Time alone is the best way to work through your issues, not all the time isolated though

Don't get hooked up on _shockingly bad behaviour_ as what you have gone through its no surprise you have done some thing out of character


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Hi!

I sent you a PM, please let me know you've received it!


----------



## imjustwatching

chriiiiiis you need to run .... run as fastest as you can
staying with this woman will be your worst mistake ever,the datails of what she did will haunt you forever if you stayed together
and you will regret staying later in life when you're to old to start over 
-my advice move on with your life,don't be no one plan B , find a decent woman and start a new family based on trust and love because you really deserve better than this


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## MattMatt

I made the mistake of having a revenge affair in response to my wife's affair.

Had I actually gone all the way and had sex with her, I feel I would probably be in a similar situation to Chris and WR.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix

Chris989 said:


> Warlock makes a good point by the way: getting involved with another woman was wrong. It is also seemingly complicated and something I think I must end pretty quickly. Ultimately though it was shockingly bad behaviour on my part.


Cut yourself a break my man. Sometimes the actions of others and the lack of support will make you become something you never wanted to be. When your wife snatches the rug out from under you multiple times, you naturally went into protection mode and would have been a fool not to. Face it, you haven't been in a situation where you felt the person who's suppose to stand by you, be your rock, respect you, be trustworthy, bring you no harm all the days of your life, ever existed to begin with. (and certainly not loving another man while married to you, making you little more than a support mechanism. If things with loverboy would have worked out, she'd cast you aside like a used rubber and you've known it for the last few years) You've been about as alone as you can get my man. You were vulnerable for someone to fill that void, and not because of anything you've done. This girl threw you a lifeline and was there when you needed her. You ain't Superman dawg. Trash the suit.
In the meantime, you may want to consider a few things before cashiering the other chick. She may be everything that you need. You've been a starvation diet for someone who really wanted to be with you for a long, long time.


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## Plan 9 from OS

happy as a clam said:


> :wtf:
> 
> Such a shame that you didn't clue us in that you were Chris989's wife at the *beginning* of your thread... before we all got sucked in with sympathy and advice. We all assumed you were a sage, wise "cheater" with great advice to offer potential cheaters.
> 
> I, for one, feel nauseous reading this thread.
> 
> Poor Chris... started *eighteen* different threads about YOU and YOUR affair. From reading through all of them, your affair nearly killed him. In life, what goes around comes around. I surely hope that old adage is true in this case.
> 
> Despite my poor opinion of you White Rose, I wish you and Chris the very best. But I know what I REALLY hope he will do.
> 
> Good luck. It must be a lonely place where you are right now.


HOLD IT! TIME OUT!

I'm not going to opine on Chris and WR's situation, but I have to comment on this post. In general, those who get the sympathy tend to be those who post first. I will bet that up to half of the people posting on TAM who come across as sympathetic characters would not be viewed as such if we knew the whole story. The truth is, we STILL don't know the whole story between Chris and WR to this day. Everything is being retold thru their perceptions of what happened, and to confound it even further, WR is taking her self loathing to such an extreme that you have to question whether she is the embodiment of pure evil in this marriage. That can't be 100% accurate, and everyone knows it. 

We have no idea if Chris is nearly as sympathetic as he makes himself out to be. Not picking on Chris, but we don't know what is true and what isn't for ANY thread on TAM. This is why the fire and pitchfork crowd needs to get a grip. All we can do is assess what is said in a thread and give advice and suggestions - with qualifiers. 

I'm going to take WR at face value, i.e. she IS a repentant WS. Did she come to her repentance now that she knows that she lost everything? Sure, looks like that is what it took for her to finally wake up. It doesn't mean that she isn't any less remorseful just because she finally got it too late. She can learn from this and make herself a better person for the next person that may come into her life. I am not excusing WR for what she did. I don't condone it, and what she did to Chris was rotten. However, NOW she may finally get it and may feel REAL shame and REAL remorse for what she did - even if it is too late for this marriage.


----------



## GusPolinski

White Rose said:


> Thank you, reading all this has been sickening and turned my stomach at what it has done. I NEED to look at these issues. I am going to take many of the points to my therapy because *I don't want to be told what I want to hear but how I can become a better person and I know that involves some real changes.* I do now understand myself a lot better and feel I have put in some changes but not enough.
> I am concentrating on my girls and they do not think cheating is good, I have told them the destruction it causes, they are intelligent girls, nobody needs to worry about them doing this.
> I do need to get to the bottom of why I did all this and treated another human being so badly. My door is open to Chris, we are friends and if he ever wanted me back I'd be honored, that's up to him. He also needs to find what he feels about all this because he thought he was in a place where he could deal with it and clearly isn't.
> I have no doubt now that if I'd responded differently this would be a good R


Well that's good. But just out of curiosity...

What is it that you'd *want* to hear...?


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

ThePheonix said:


> *Cut yourself a break my man. * Sometimes the actions of others and the lack of support will make you become something you never wanted to be. When your wife snatches the rug out from under you multiple times, you naturally went into protection mode and would have been a fool not to. Face it, you haven't been in a situation where you felt the person who's suppose to stand by you, be your rock, respect you, be trustworthy, bring you no harm all the days of your life, ever existed to begin with. (and certainly not loving another man while married to you, making you little more than a support mechanism. If things with loverboy would have worked out, she'd cast you aside like a used rubber and you've known it for the last few years) *You've been about as alone as you can get my man. You were vulnerable for someone to fill that void, and not because of anything you've done. This girl threw you a lifeline and was there when you needed her. You ain't Superman dawg. Trash the suit.*
> In the meantime, you may want to consider a few things before cashiering the other chick. She may be everything that you need. *You've been a starvation diet for someone who really wanted to be with you for a long, long time.*


Sorry Phoenix, but I'm calling another time out. When you strip away the supporting details of a script and keep the main ideas in bold, it's the exact same rationalizations that any friend - or WS - regularly make. If we're to be consistent, if this doesn't fly for the person who cheats in their marriage due to the lack of affection, attention and care, then why should Chris use this as excuses today? Not saying Chris is doing this, but you cannot justify what Chris did because he chose to stick it out with a woman that hurt him so badly. Shame on WR for what she did, but after awhile if it's not working out but Chris chose to remain, then at some point he has to start taking more responsibility for his own happiness. Why remain with someone if they have repeatedly demonstrated that he/she cannot give you what you need? He could have divorced her first or better yet not remarry and then pursue someone else. Not before.


----------



## GusPolinski

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Sorry Phoenix, but I'm calling another time out. When you strip away the supporting details of a script and keep the main ideas in bold, it's the exact same rationalizations that any friend - or WS - regularly make. If we're to be consistent, if this doesn't fly for the person who cheats in their marriage due to the lack of affection, attention and care, then why should Chris use this as excuses today? Not saying Chris is doing this, but you cannot justify what Chris did because he chose to stick it out with a woman that hurt him so badly. Shame on WR for what she did, but after awhile if it's not working out but Chris chose to remain, then at some point he has to start taking more responsibility for his own happiness. Why remain with someone if they have repeatedly demonstrated that he/she cannot give you what you need? He could have divorced her first or better yet not remarry and then pursue someone else. Not before.


Agreed. Multiple issues here, and both of them should fully own the bullsh*t that is his or hers to own.


----------



## As'laDain

So, how do you feel the way you want to feel? If WR knew how to produce the feelings she wanted, I'm sure she would have. What she did was react to her feelings instead. There is a difference... when you react based on your feelings, you are basically leaving yourself open to your environment. When you are creating feelings, you are modifying your environment and yourself in order to produce a safe place that will produce those feelings. 

The first is passive, the second takes effort. But you see why it's so important to learn how to modify your environment and yourself in order to produce the feelings we need. We are not capable of controlling what our emotional responses are. It's like an involuntary reflex. If you don't believe me, think about the difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals. The only difference is what they emotionally react to. When they try to deny how they respond, it just leads to shame and despair. The response is the same emotion in both of them, but the stimulus is different. The NEED is the same. And they can't help that, but if they want to be healthy individuals they have to admit how they feel and learn to accept it, and not be ashamed for feeling the way they do. It would be like feeling ashamed because you flinch when the dentist drills a tooth. You can train your self not to flinch in a temporary trance, but flinching is normal. So is the way we feel. 

This is why it is so vital to accept how you feel. It's true, it's there. 

What you CAN help is what your going to do about it. I flinch at the dentists drill and that makes me too afraid to get my teeth fixed? Well, i better go ahead and ask for anesthetics. That way, I won't flinch because I won't feel it. 

We are all willing to do this because we all know that it works. We have faith in it, we already know it will work so we don't even think about it. This is the same kind of thing we SHOULD be doing in our relationships. But it's not easy and we lack the faith that we will be able to feel what we are wanting to feel. That feeling is pretty simple... to know that we are loved for us, just because we are. We don't want to have to work for it because that means we are loved for the things we do, not for just being us. Being loved for no reason means we ARE good enough. Being loved because we put in a lot of effort is good to, but we logically know that we had to do something to get it. 


When we fall in love with someone, we are responding based on how we feel. We want to be loved, someone shows us they love us, and we feel it. We feel it because we don't question it. There was no reason for this person to love us, they just did, and it feels real because of it. 

But here is the problem... they are responding based on how they feel too. When their feelings change, and they will, what then? You see, this kind of love isn't really safe. It's not impervious. It's based on something that is always going to be changing. 
Those who fall in love and never fall out were either so well matched to each other that they don't even notice the effort they put into making their spouses feel or they had to learn to do things to make their spouses feel loved even when they didn't feel like it.

Unfortunately, we often choose not to do what our spouses need in order to feel loved because we don't believe it works or we think that our emotional reaction is truth for our partners. After all, we believe that they love us for no reason because they fill all our needs and seem to love us, so if they fail to meet our needs, it must be because they don't love us. But that's the fallacy... love says that you are worth love for no other reason than because I choose to love you. Not because you do all the right things, but because I will choose to love you anyway. This love is not based on feelings, it's based on a choice. And therefore it is not subject to the behavior of others. 

But that also means something... that kind of love is not done for the person being loved. It's for the person doing the loving. They do it because they want to experience the product of that kind of love, joy.

Have you ever heard parents say that their children are their greatest joy? That there is no greater joy than raising a child? Think about that. Why would they say that? What could be so great about it that people would say that? I mean, raising kids is a lot of work. They throw fits, fight, argue, cost money, take up time... so why do they cause so much joy? Where does the joy come from in changing a thousand diapers? 

It comes from knowing that THEY were the ones who taught this child about life. THEY are the ones who taught them to be effective in the world, to find their OWN joy. 

That's where joy comes from. Knowing that you made a positive influence in someone's life. 

Now imagine if we loved ourselves like that. Imagine what a marriage would look like if both people loved each other like that. 

WR, this is the kind of love you need to learn. This is the kind of love you need to DO. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

I think _both _of them need to learn to do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do, AslaDain. Neither of them has been a shining example of that.


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## ConanHub

Mr Blunt said:


> White Rose
> 
> *What has transpired with you and Chris has caused permanent damage*. I am sure you already know this but maybe your hope that Chris will come back may happen. However, if Chris comes back then you will have to settle for less than a deep loving relationship because of the damage already done. You probably already know that also but at this point you are desperate and wanting Chris back at almost any cost. If Chris does come back then you will be very elated for a time but eventually the damage that has been done will affect your relationship so that you will probably not be real happy with what the relationship finally settles down to.
> 
> 
> There is some similarity in you and Chris’s situation and mine and my wife, however there are some differences also. In our case I divorced her and then we came back together. I made her prove her sincerity for over 4 years then remarried her. It has been over 20 years since D-day and we have improved our relationship in some areas. However, there are permanent damages that will never go away and therefore we will never have the deep all around love that was possible before the affair. I still have a degree of love for my wife but there is permanent damage that will never heal and that keeps us from having the deep all-encompassing love that we all dream of.
> 
> My wife is a good person that has many good qualities it is just that my admiration for her in certain areas is dead. We have built on other areas in our relationship and have a marriage that is average and above average at times. We will never have a great marriage.
> 
> 
> One of my main points in writing you this posts is so that you do not get an expectation that is not possible. Also, I hope that you take actions in your life so that you can be satisfied if you and Chris wind up just being friends or having an average marriage but not a great marriage. I know you may be satisfied with any positive relationship you get from Chris from what it is right now. However, you probably will not be satisfied with that that level of relationship in 10-20 years from now unless you know what level can be achieved and train yourself to be content with that level.
> 
> 
> As for you personally, aside from your relationship with Chris, you can improve in your self-acceptance and not be so negative about what your have done. You are a valuable person to your children and you should know that you can be a valuable person to yourself and maybe you already are.
> 
> As for your relationship with Chris you have made a series of horrible choices and you will pay for as you already have been paying for that. Being married to Chris or having a much better relationship with Chris is not your whole life. *You can still have a decent life but it will not include a deep loving relationship with Chris. You will do yourself a favor by starting to accept this truth.*
> 
> We have all made serious mistakes in life but we just have to accept the natural consequences and keep improving our lives. *You can still be a very valuable person to yourself, your children, and your grandchildren.* Just do not expect to have a deep loving relationship with Chris. You probably will not have a deep loving relationship with any man but then again you maybe an exception to the rule.
> 
> These are just my opinions and may not apply to you but having lived your scenario somewhat for over 20 years that is what I see. White Rose I hope that you improve yourself because you still have something to give but it is just that none of us wind up with 100% of our potential.
> *
> Life can be good at 80%-90%*
> 
> Blunt


That would never be enough for me Mr. Blunt and seems like settling. No one has to put up with or settle for a situation like that.

It would feel empty and cheap. Less than 100% is not enough.

It is like living crippled when you do not have too.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: I cheated*



iwontliedown said:


> Wonderful! You have successfully made an already broken man feel bad about himself for standing upto his manipulative wife.


How long would you allow Chris to sit in the victim chair? 

At some point, he has to grab his nuts and act like a man. Seeking solace in another woman's bed was certainly not that. It further illustrates that he sees himself as a victim, which is what he is saying he is rationalizing.

Chris, it is time for you to stop feeling sorry for yourself. Until that happens, you will never break free from the drama and grow. Character is not about what happens to us; it is about how we react to what happens to us. And you lying with another woman puts your character into question.

WR, all I can say to you is to work on yourself. That you would do any of this to someone you love is beyond comprehension.


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## MattMatt

Gosh. It appears that some posters replying to Chris and WR are justifying revenge affairs.

That's not something I would be willing to do even though I had one myself.

However, this might be a useful reset button?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> How long would you allow Chris to sit in the victim chair?
> 
> At some point, he has to grab his nuts and act like a man. Seeking solace in another woman's bed was certainly not that. It further illustrates that he's sees himself as a victim, which is what he is saying he is rationalizing.
> 
> Chris, it is time for you to stop feeling sorry for yourself. Until that happens, you will never break free from the drama and grow. *Character is not about what happens to us; it is about how we react to what happens to us. * And you lying with another woman puts your character into queation.
> 
> WR, all I can say to you is to work on yourself. That you would do any of this to someone you love is beyond comprehension.


QFT. 

Far, you really care about Chris. His real friends don't let him justify himself. They want the best for him: an excellent character.


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## ThePheonix

Plan 9 from OS said:


> He could have divorced her first or better yet not remarry and then pursue someone else. Not before.


Ideally that's right. But people, given the circumstance that puts them in pain, often don't do what's ideal. Enough pain will make the best and the strongest cave. 
True enough, we don't know these two. But following the story that's been laid before us, old Chris took more of a beating before bolting than most anybody I've seen. 
I know it chagrins many here, but from my way of thinking, its a little easier to understand why Chis would be looking for comfort elsewhere than it would be if he was married to a loyal, loving wife.


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## As'laDain

jld said:


> I think _both _of them need to learn to do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do, AslaDain. Neither of them has been a shining example of that.


I agree. I believe Chris lost hope. He even said as much, that he checked out when he real is ed that he still had all the anger. I honestly believe that he stopped caring because he thought he would never be able to feel right again. He lost faith in himself. But your right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain

ThePheonix said:


> Ideally that's right. But people, given the circumstance that puts them in pain, often don't do what's ideal. Enough pain will make the best and the strongest cave.
> True enough, we don't know these two. But following the story that's been laid before us, old Chris took more of a beating before bolting than most anybody I've seen.
> I know it chagrins many here, but from my way of thinking, its a little easier to understand why Chis would be looking for comfort elsewhere than it would be if he was married to a loyal, loving wife.


I'm sure we can all understand it, but it's not doing him any good. He is chipping away at his character, Which will degrade his ability to love himself for who he chooses to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

MattMatt said:


> Gosh. It appears that some posters replying to Chris and WR are justify revenge affairs.
> 
> That's not something I would be willing to do even though I had one myself.
> 
> However, this might be a useful reset button?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This situation bares little resemblance to yours.

Chris should have waited and I am not justifying his actions. I am not putting him in the same class as his WW however.

I believe his initial mistake was to continue in the ridiculous R for as long as he did.

He simply harmed himself. I am not justifying his actions but I am not going to beat the hell out of him and compare him to a run of the mill cheater.


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## drifting on

White rose

First let me say I normally don't come on here to beat people up. I came here at a time I was lost, confused and hurting. I can only imagine you are here for the same reasons, but from the other side of the fence. My WW had a six month affair while yours was considerably longer. I know in my heart if my WW's affair had lasted more than a year I wouldn't be in R. What I fail to understand is why did the affair last so long? Why continue after caught? Why didn't you put effort into your R? You state you love Chris, but if this is love I'd hate to see what you do to an enemy. I'm not beating you up here as I asked my WW almost the exact same questions. 

I figure I'm most likely the most stupid poster on TAM as I don't comprehend how one has an affair to begin with. So in my mind you say you love Chris but I can only see that you hate him. Wanted him to suffer pain in the most excruciating way. I told this to my WW and she said she never stopped loving me. I say bulls--t. Just like I told my WW, every time you got with OM you knew it was wrong, did it anyway, which is beyond selfish. As with my WW you inflicted pain intentionally, willfully, and with complete disregard to the man who loved you unconditionally. I have never cheated, never had the desire, and I never will. I'm not stronger than the next person, but I know morals, respect my vows, and respect myself to never cheat. 

White rose I'm not trying to be hard on you, in fact that would be too easy to kick you when you're down, but you need to search within yourself to find what's broken. My WW is and she is getting better, understanding more about herself. She still has a ways to go but so do I. I respect that you have come on here as I'm sure you knew you would receive quite a thrashing. So in my opinion you are now trying to better yourself. I wish you and Chris the best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Plan 9 from OS

ThePheonix said:


> Ideally that's right. But people, given the circumstance that puts them in pain, often don't do what's ideal. Enough pain will make the best and the strongest cave.
> True enough, we don't know these two. But following the story that's been laid before us, old Chris took more of a beating before bolting than most anybody I've seen.
> I know it chagrins many here, but from my way of thinking, its a little easier to understand why Chis would be looking for comfort elsewhere than it would be if he was married to a loyal, loving wife.


Your line of thinking has gotten me in trouble a number of times, with Chris among many who have lambasted me over the mere mention that you can understand why someone may cheat given their life's circumstances. While I don't condone nor justify cheating, I can understand why a person may feel driven to cheat (note, I get that it's still a choice, but perceptions at the moment are hard to process rationally). All I'm saying is that there needs to be consistency - either it's wrong at all times regardless of circumstances, or people can understand that given the right circumstances anyone can succumb to temptation. I think the latter is more realistic of how real life plays out but the former is the sacrosanct view of TAM. I thought you were a strict believer that all cheating needs to be dealt with harshly no matter what the circumstances are.

Again, Chris should have still left his wife before the other girl came into the picture. Better yet, he should have never remarried in the first place given what transpired. However, he made his choice to stick it out regardless of any progress he needed. Because of that, it's on him that he cheated in the end. No one forced him to take her back or forced him to put up with an unrepentant cheater.


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## Flying_Dutchman

W.Rose. - I wasn't here for Chris's original thread. Since yours appeared, I've read a bit of back story but most of it's pretty clear from recent comments.

There's nothing I can say about your affair that hasn't been said already,,, except that it fits a pattern with more recent events.

When the affair was over, you said all the right things, made all the right noises and he took you back.

He presented you with a 'list of requirements'. In solid relationships those can be a red flag,, but when taking back a cheater they're perfectly reasonable. Had you found the list, or anything on it, unreasonable you could've objected,, but you didn't.

With that in mind, moving on, you register at TAM but are too afraid to post. Back then, those with a mind to 'bash' you only had your affair to beat you with. Now they have the list too. You should be more afraid to post, yet here you are.

ALL of the above reveals a pattern. That being, when you don't have Chris you pull out all the stops to get him. When you do have him, you quickly become complacent.

- 1st marriage. Affair. Selfish. Complacent.

- Dumped by OM. Re-dedicated. Selfless (or appearence of).

- 2nd marriage. Complacency returns. Half-hearted efforts to comply with Chris's list.

- Chris leaves. Re-dedication returns. Prepared to endure TAM 'shaming'. Back to saying the right things and making the right noises.


It may be, Rose, that you can't entirely help who you are,, but the pattern reveals you. Until you address why you only fight for Chris when he's gone,, but become complacent and selfish when you have him,, you'll struggle to hang on to him or anybody else. You need to work on yourself before getting involved with others because it'll hurt them and continue to hurt you.

Random fact - My mum was from Leeds. Worked for Jimmy Savile in her early 20's. I guess she was to old for him. Glad I don't have THAT geneology.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vellocet

Chris989 said:


> Guys this is my wife.
> 
> I'm leaving today. I hit a brick wall a week ago despite my last post.
> 
> Not got much time at the moment but will return later.


Well you are among those of us that have been where you have been. Trust me, I understand the anger and never being able to move past being cheated on.

The only way, IMO and for myself, and seems like you too, to get past it and not let it consume you is to leave the situation.


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## Observer

White Rose has taken a beating, and rightfully so I guess. I was like Chris, cheated on after 20 years in a marriage, so I understand the anger all too well. 

I do believe she has remorse, and the good news Chris, she is highly unlikely to ever do it to you again. 

Chris now has fooled around (gotten back) and until she is out of the picture, I don't see how he can make an objective decision.

Personally, I think once that damage is done it's very difficult to ever regain the trust. Having said that, Chris has shown exceptional capability to be a bigger man than most of us and maybe he can forgive. 

If you stay together, clearly some things need to change. You have to build trust, thus no locks or passcodes on phones, no going out seperate and living seperate lives. If you enjoy each others company, spend it with each other. Reconnect. Chris, you can't expect to get your way with all the demands you want now either, as that would only lead to resentment. It would be like punishing her and eventually, you are right back to where you are now. If she wants to do the things that you like, appreciate it and show her gratitude. If she does not, respect that. If we really love the person, we want to do things that make them happy. That goes both ways. 

Identify what made you stray WR, that is crucial. Boredom? Resentment? Selfishness? You have to deal with that or your marriage is doomed. Once identified, how do you fix it? This whole situation is not business as usual, it needs major repair. BUT, in the end I hope you two can reconcile and find happiness together. My advice, move and start fresh where you don't know anyone.


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## vellocet

GusPolinski said:


> It would seem that Chris -- the one person whose opinion *truly* matters in this instance -- disagrees.


Exactly. She doesn't get to make that determination. That is Chris' call to make.


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## manfromlamancha

Chris is very clearly a good but tormented man. White Rose, I cannot fully figure out though.

White Rose, let your Yorkshire good sense guide you in this! As others have said, you need to figure out why you did this.

Was it really that your marriage was bad ? Or did you lust after some strange here (and you know what I mean) ? I know that often Northern men (especially from Yorkshire) are seen as set in their ways (especially the male ego thing) and a tad boring, but you must know that their core values are solid - much more solid than anything else you may find.

If it was a question of lust, then you need to come clean and put it behind you. This may give Chris some closure.

I also think that the constant deceit and disrespect over the years is what has really worn him down, not to forget about the mind movies and emasculation!

Have you really addressed all these point by point with him ? What have you done to reassure him about this ?

His emasculation for example, what do you think you could do to help him with this ? I am sure you can guess what is going through his mind.

Then there is the mind movies - how graphic have you been in describing what went on ? The truth here can be a double-edged sword - he needs the truth but the detail could kill the relationship. What have you done to counter this ?

And then the simply not being able to trust you anymore since you have lied very efficiently and may I say, cold-bloodedly, over the years. What could you possibly do to restore his trust in you ?

And finally an explanation for the disrespect shown - I really don't know how you could make up for this.

But it starts with you acknowledging, understanding and having empathy with him for all of these actions of yours. Then tell him that you really are trying to understand what to do about it over and above what he has asked you for. And there is the challenge - proactive action over and above what he is expecting.

I know that you have been beaten down and even EI, a former WW, who normally shows compassion for most, found it hard to understand your actions.

I really wish you all the luck and strength in the world in winning back Chris, who has been through a hell of a lot for one man to cope with. Sit down with him one last time. But only after you have answered the questions about what you can and should do, by yourself first.


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## ThePheonix

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I thought you were a strict believer that all cheating needs to be dealt with harshly no matter what the circumstances are.


Perhaps my engaging style of being the "devil's advocate" made it unclear on my beliefs. To clarify I believe the following:

- People have different thresholds of emotional pain. If enough emotional pain is inflicted, most anybody will do what it takes to relieve that pain. Like drugs and alcohol, romance relieves that pain. When in a relationship, cheating is sometime the only way to get that "drug". (don't misconstrue that I'm in any way implying that a cheater always cheats to overcome emotional pain)

- Any tort can have extenuating circumstances. A woman injuring her spouse for no apparent reason is viewed different than a woman injuring her spouse when there is evidence he was abusing her. I don't think you can exempt cheating from this type logic. 

- If a spouse is not meeting your needs, you tend to blame your spouse. People argue that, "you should communicate your needs". True, but that often doesn't work. What goes along with it is you tend to gradually lose romantic interest in a spouse who you perceive them as not meeting,or worse ignoring, your needs.

- when a woman loses respect for you, she no longer can have the requisite romantic interest. 

- Hence the most important from my experience with women, and I welcome the lady members to straighten me out, 99 women out of a 100, with a reasonably high romantic interest in her mate will not cheat. The majority of the time, a loss of romantic interest never returns. And this is why I advise men to hit the trail (and why many see me as hard line) 
Although I see some reconciliations successful at least at that point in time, her romantic interest seldom returns to full vigor and you'll see subsequent post amounting to, "no/poor sex after R," "wife broke no contact rule, wife up to same shenanigans 2 years out, etc.

Ya'll forgive me limiting the above to my point of view on WW. Much of the same will and does apply to men. Its just women have been my life, my lovers, and my ladies. Like it or not, they make you the best or the worst you can be. They can give you exquisite pleasure and cause you almost unendurable pain. And there in almost no middle ground.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: I cheated*



iwontliedown said:


> I seriously can't believe this cheating, lying woman has changed everyone's opinion and has successfully made Chris into a bad person in their eyes.!
> 
> HE IS THE VICTIM HERE!
> 
> As they say in my country, two of the most dangerous weapons in the world are - a woman's smile and a woman's tears. Can make do anything. And guess what, the latter weapon is working perfectly here.
> 
> he has given his wife more than enough respect than she deserves or offered herself during her affair. he told her of his anger, moved out and then started the relationship. have anyone forgotten that she continued to f*** the OM even after discovery?


Wrong. 

Chris was rightfully the victim when it initially happened. 

That he chooses to continue to be the victim is tragic. 

That there are those who continue to convince him it is okay to remain the victim is even more tragic.

Stop enabling it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Affairs of any kind cannot be justified. 

If a marriage is destructive, that affair choice is adding destruction to destruction.

If a marriage is constructive, that affair choice adds destruction to the construction.

There is no middle ground. 

Can duress push people's limits, absolutely, but the nature of the choice never changes no matter WHO makes it.


----------



## vellocet

farsidejunky said:


> Wrong.
> 
> Chris was rightfully the victim when it initially happened.
> 
> That he chooses to continue to be the victim is tragic.
> 
> That there are those who continue to convince him it is okay to remain the victim is even more tragic.
> 
> Stop enabling it.


He will cease to be a victim on his own timeframe. It will happen once he and WR are finally no longer together. He'll be able to "man up" later, as you would like him to do.


----------



## ConanHub

Chris actually has a thread that his issues could be discussed on. WR definitely needs her own thread here to discuss what is going on with her.


----------



## SevenYears

ConanHub said:


> Chris actually has a thread that his issues could be discussed on. WR definitely needs her own thread here to discuss what is going on with her.


Exactly. I think that if you're wanting to give Chris advice then you need to go to his thread. This is WR thread. 

WR, I agree that you shouldn't be thinking of what you need to do to get Chris back. He needs space to heal and decide what he wants to do. I think you need to work on yourself for yourself. If some time in the future he brings up reconciliation then you can go for it, but only if you believe you are in a position to fully commit. Otherwise it will just fail again.


----------



## wmn1

I know I am late to this thread but have some observations 

1) I know it was asked earlier in this thread about if a SO cheated and did things with the OM, would I want her to do it with me ? Well, OMO, they would not be a SO of mine if there was another man but if I reconciled, the answer is hell yes. Why go through a R being limited in what you can do sexually after you were already crippled by the affair. In fact I would expect them to not only do it for me, but to do it better and then more.

2) I credit both Chris and White Rose for coming on here and giving their story. What WR did is *****d up big time. The Om was a complete slimeball and a career homewrecker. To sacrifice this marriage for anyone is wrong in and of itself but to do it with a slimeball and then lie and then re-cheat, this marriage would be over no questions asked and there would be no enduring friendships. However, it's not my marriage and somehow Chris still seems hellbent to hang on at least in some capacity. 
3) I am also stunned by the fact that, after the details came out, they still had that hysterical bonding stuff going on. 
4) Chris did wrong by his short term affair too but that is nothing compared to WR's. 

In the end, I think this marriage is broken and should not be saved. Both people need to work on themselves, Chris and his shattered psyche and WR and her ability to be a quality SO to someone. Both people need to look inwards but is have no question Chris would make a good forgiving spouse to someone again. WR, I am not so sure but it would take a major re-making. 

This is just my opinion but ..... a view that is shared by many here as I have read


----------



## cool12

a truly remorseful WS will do practicality everything asked in order to prove they are worthy of forgiveness and a second chance. you did not and this is what you get. 
you were given a gift and you wasted it.


----------



## As'laDain

honestly, i would love to see them reconcile. but, i dont believe it is currently within their capabilities. WR needs to make new habits to become a new person and Chris would have to find peace, within himself and without her, before he could just be himself again. he would never be able to find that with her until he could find it without her. 

so, right now, reconciling would be a fools errand. i still think it would be great if they did, but thats only because of what i view a real reconciliation to be. BOTH parties have to become better people. more joyous. more stable. more effective. basically, become the people that they should have been all along. 

when i decided to R, thats pretty much what i figured it had to be. im glad my wife was on board. i dont think i would have stuck it out as long as chris did without her support.


----------



## ThePheonix

As'laDain said:


> honestly, i would love to see them reconcile.


Other than for the sole purpose of reconciliation, why? From what I've gleaned, I don't get impression these two have any kind of special and irreplaceable romantic relationship. I ain't one to recommend staying in a marriage when you're always looking over your shoulder, filled with doubt, and waiting for the other shoe to drop.


----------



## MattMatt

ThePheonix said:


> Other than for the sole purpose of reconciliation, why? From what I've gleaned, I don't get impression these two have any kind of special and irreplaceable romantic relationship. I ain't one to recommend staying in a marriage when you're always looking over your shoulder, filled with doubt, and waiting for the other shoe to drop.


I think the other shoes have dropped. In the whole bloomin' shoe shop.


----------



## As'laDain

ThePheonix said:


> Other than for the sole purpose of reconciliation, why? From what I've gleaned, I don't get impression these two have any kind of special and irreplaceable romantic relationship. I ain't one to recommend staying in a marriage when you're always looking over your shoulder, filled with doubt, and waiting for the other shoe to drop.


your post assumes that you cannot build that kind of special and irreplaceable romantic relationship with someone that your not naturally compatible with and dont trust. i know from experience that this is not the case. 

but ill say it again, for them to reconcile, they would have to become the people they always should have been to begin with. effective, stable, and joyous.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> ok, so now that we can all agree that WR is/was a terrible person, why not get down to business in putting her back together?
> 
> honestly, i dont for a second believe that chris doesnt love her anymore. his anger is too much right now, but despite that, he STILL wants to see his wife to be taken care of/get better. he sent her here after all. thats a hell of a big broken heart...
> 
> so, WR, are you willing to go into detail about how and why you did what you did in order to uncover the things about yourself that you cant stand? once you expose the core flaws in your personality, you can start to grow. you need to identify the very thought patterns that you think. those thougths are what empowered you to do this... so you HAVE to change how you actively think if you are going to change who you are.
> 
> 
> should you decide to do this, you will need to have someone to keep you honest. you already know that you run from the truth. if you want to change who you are, put yourself in a place where you literally cannot hide anymore. personally, i believe in open community settings. it keeps everyone a lot more honest and civil. i dislike one on one counseling because you can hide in counseling. i dislike the closed atmosphere because i have never seen it work. someone always finds a way to hide...
> 
> so, church, group therapy, or even here on TAM. but you need someone to be willing to step in and tell the group when your lying about what you have done and said. you need this because you WONT do it otherwise. you wont do it because it WILL FVCKING HURT! we already know you want to lie hide and blameshift when it comes to looking at your own self. we get that. you admit it, so you have taken the first step in growth. but admitting who you are does nothing if you do not want to change it... so account for who you are, what your tendencies will be, and set yourself up for success.
> 
> 
> this is why i love church accountability groups so much... they are effective for a reason. scary, but effective.
> 
> what do you think? are you up to it?


I am going to therapy sessions and shall be looking at some of the issues identified by this forum. I don't know of any church groups who have sessions like you mentioned but would consider this. I want to find some answers for myself and shall be probing to find them. I am not afraid of it hurting as I have already discovered a lot of stuff that hurts.


----------



## As'laDain

White Rose said:


> I am going to therapy sessions and shall be looking at some of the issues identified by this forum. I don't know of any church groups who have sessions like you mentioned but would consider this. I want to find some answers for myself and shall be probing to find them.* I am not afraid of it hurting as I have already discovered a lot of stuff that hurts.*


GOOD! there is hope for you yet!

just remember, when it hurts, its supposed to.


----------



## MattMatt

White Rose said:


> I am going to therapy sessions and shall be looking at some of the issues identified by this forum. I don't know of any church groups who have sessions like you mentioned but would consider this. I want to find some answers for myself and shall be probing to find them. I am not afraid of it hurting as I have already discovered a lot of stuff that hurts.


It depends on the church. Though I suspect there's more of that type of thing in the States, rather than Britain.

Though your vicar/parson/etc would be able to help with that kind of information.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

SevenYears said:


> Exactly. I think that if you're wanting to give Chris advice then you need to go to his thread. This is WR thread.
> 
> WR, I agree that you shouldn't be thinking of what you need to do to get Chris back. He needs space to heal and decide what he wants to do. I think you need to work on yourself for yourself. If some time in the future he brings up reconciliation then you can go for it, but only if you believe you are in a position to fully commit. Otherwise it will just fail again.


Chris has gone his own way, we are involved in making sure our children are looked after together. He is getting his space to think and so am I. My door is open to him if he wants to R, he knows this. I am his friend and he mine despite everything.


----------



## As'laDain

MattMatt said:


> It depends on the church. Though I suspect there's more of that type of thing in the States, rather than Britain.
> 
> Though your vicar/parson/etc would be able to help with that kind of information.


that actually brings up a good question... i have heard that churches in Britain are more traditional, and that religion plays a more traditional role over there than it does in America. that may be so... in America, there are a lot of churches that are big on community and "taking care of their own". kinda like an AA group, a lot of them function like a second family. 

what would be the equivalent for that on the other side of the pond?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

White Rose said:


> I am going to therapy sessions and shall be looking at some of the issues identified by this forum. I don't know of any church groups who have sessions like you mentioned but would consider this. I want to find some answers for myself and shall be probing to find them. I am not afraid of it hurting as I have already discovered a lot of stuff that hurts.


www.affairrecovery.com

Also churches that run Journey groups. This is a three year commitment that dives deep into theology/doctrine with close knit accountability. Not sure where you live, but I've never met a group of transparent Christians as the church we are in right now. Makes a huge difference. Lots of grace coupled with sound accountability.

You also may find help with Celebrate Recovery or Adult Children of Alcoholics.


----------



## ThePheonix

As'laDain said:


> your post assumes that you cannot build that kind of special and irreplaceable romantic relationship with someone that your not naturally compatible with and dont trust. i know from experience that this is not the case.


I'm not knocking the work you must have put it to make that happen. I'm just too damn lazy and don't want to work that hard tweaking something that didn't work to begin with. When it comes to relationship, am the archetype, "if it don't come easy, let it go" and kind of guy.


----------



## MattMatt

As'laDain said:


> that actually brings up a good question... i have heard that churches in Britain are more traditional, and that religion plays a more traditional role over there than it does in America. that may be so... in America, there are a lot of churches that are big on community and "taking care of their own". kinda like an AA group, a lot of them function like a second family.
> 
> what would be the equivalent for that on the other side of the pond?


Some Church of England parishes work like that, Methodists, too, some of the smaller churches. Also, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, but adultery amongst them can cause major problems.


----------



## As'laDain

ThePheonix said:


> I'm not knocking the work you must have put it to make that happen. I'm just too damn lazy and don't want to work that hard tweaking something that didn't work to begin with. When it comes to relationship, am the archetype, "if it don't come easy, let it go" and kind of guy.


at least you can admit it! lol


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

GusPolinski said:


> Well that's good. But just out of curiosity...
> 
> What is it that you'd *want* to hear...?


I mean I don't want the therapist telling me I'm not to blame or stuff like that. I want to be told it how it is and learn from it warts an all.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

As'laDain said:


> that actually brings up a good question... i have heard that churches in Britain are more traditional, and that religion plays a more traditional role over there than it does in America. that may be so... in America, there are a lot of churches that are big on community and "taking care of their own". kinda like an AA group, a lot of them function like a second family.
> 
> what would be the equivalent for that on the other side of the pond?


Our church is very much like a second family. I hope thats what you find OP.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> that actually brings up a good question... i have heard that churches in Britain are more traditional, and that religion plays a more traditional role over there than it does in America. that may be so... in America, there are a lot of churches that are big on community and "taking care of their own". kinda like an AA group, a lot of them function like a second family.
> 
> what would be the equivalent for that on the other side of the pond?


Actually I went to a conference for work at a church recently where they do lots of community work. They have AA meetings in church and are doing some really good health initiatives and multi faith work. It could be something to think about.


----------



## 3putt

White Rose said:


> I mean I don't want the therapist telling me I'm not to blame or stuff like that. I want to be told it how it is and learn from it warts an all.


Well, hell, you're getting that here, and it's free. Most MCs have no damned clue about infidelity anyway, so your safest bet is to grow a *very* thick skin and keep posting here.

It'll do you better than anything you're likely to pay for.


----------



## As'laDain

3putt said:


> Well, hell, you're getting that here, and it's free. Most MCs have no damned clue about infidelity anyway, so your safest bet is to grow a *very* thick skin and keep posting here.
> 
> It'll do you better than anything you're likely to pay for.



i agree.


----------



## warlock07

Can you offer him an open marriage ? Chris wouldn't have a wife now if your OM would leave his gf for you, right ?


----------



## wmn1

White Rose said:


> I mean I don't want the therapist telling me I'm not to blame or stuff like that. I want to be told it how it is and learn from it warts an all.


'''

very good, because a counselor who would say that is only looking for non-resistance rather than telling the truth. I do applaud you for starting the effort and taking accountability though it may be too late but you never know


----------



## wmn1

warlock07 said:


> Can you offer him an open marriage ? Chris wouldn't have a wife now if your OM would leave his gf for you, right ?




ouch !!


----------



## Jellybeans

This is such a sad story. Chris said he told her repeatedly he'd leave if she didn't step up to the plate and she didn't believe him; OP told him she would be done with OM and he believed her.

I guess it comes down to that actions speak louder than words. A two and a half year affair (and in one thread, Chris said it was a 3 year EA) is a huge hurdle to overcome. By then a relationship has been established. That is such a long time. Add to that a remarriage, more betrayal, Chris hooking up with colleague... sometimes it's just done and there is nothing left to salvage anymore. 

I felt so sad reading this story.


----------



## Stillasamountain

White Rose said:


> I mean I don't want the therapist telling me I'm not to blame or stuff like that. I want to be told it how it is and learn from it warts an all.



If true... That's refreshingly straightforward.


----------



## Broken at 20

Out of curiosity, what are you two telling the kids? 

And how does this get explained? 
Assuming I remember correctly, they are old enough to understand what is going on. 
And how are you handling the kids?

Because so far, all they have seen is:
Mommy can cheat and be selfish and egotistical, as long as when she is caught she half-asses a reconciliation. Because she can't be bothered to put in more effort. 
And now, after daddy has been worn down to nothing, he goes out, cheats, and their parents just decide to finally end it all. 

If these kids are old enough to understand what is going on, they are also old enough to probably come to the conclusion you two only stayed together in this unhappy, unloving, miserable marriage because of them. 

So what's the plan here?


----------



## jim123

You came back and that says a lot about you.

My grandmother was born in Yorkshire but that was over 100 years ago.

Why did you wait so long to get help? 

Chris is well liked and we can be protective.

Get the help you need for you. Things will work out.


----------



## ThePheonix

As'laDain said:


> at least you can admit it! lol


If I didn't, I doubt I could fool anybody.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> 
> White Rose
> 
> What has transpired with you and Chris has caused permanent damage. I am sure you already know this but maybe your hope that Chris will come back may happen. However, if Chris comes back then you will have to settle for less than a deep loving relationship because of the damage already done. You probably already know that also but at this point you are desperate and wanting Chris back at almost any cost. If Chris does come back then you will be very elated for a time but eventually the damage that has been done will affect your relationship so that you will probably not be real happy with what the relationship finally settles down to.
> 
> 
> There is some similarity in you and Chris’s situation and mine and my wife, however there are some differences also. In our case I divorced her and then we came back together. I made her prove her sincerity for over 4 years then remarried her. It has been over 20 years since D-day and we have improved our relationship in some areas. However, there are permanent damages that will never go away and therefore we will never have the deep all around love that was possible before the affair. I still have a degree of love for my wife but there is permanent damage that will never heal and that keeps us from having the deep all-encompassing love that we all dream of.
> 
> My wife is a good person that has many good qualities it is just that my admiration for her in certain areas is dead. We have built on other areas in our relationship and have a marriage that is average and above average at times. We will never have a great marriage.
> 
> 
> One of my main points in writing you this posts is so that you do not get an expectation that is not possible. Also, I hope that you take actions in your life so that you can be satisfied if you and Chris wind up just being friends or having an average marriage but not a great marriage. I know you may be satisfied with any positive relationship you get from Chris from what it is right now. However, you probably will not be satisfied with that that level of relationship in 10-20 years from now unless you know what level can be achieved and train yourself to be content with that level.
> 
> 
> As for you personally, aside from your relationship with Chris, you can improve in your self-acceptance and not be so negative about what your have done. You are a valuable person to your children and you should know that you can be a valuable person to yourself and maybe you already are.
> 
> As for your relationship with Chris you have made a series of horrible choices and you will pay for as you already have been paying for that. Being married to Chris or having a much better relationship with Chris is not your whole life. You can still have a decent life but it will not include a deep loving relationship with Chris. You will do yourself a favor by starting to accept this truth.
> 
> We have all made serious mistakes in life but we just have to accept the natural consequences and keep improving our lives. You can still be a very valuable person to yourself, your children, and your grandchildren. Just do not expect to have a deep loving relationship with Chris. You probably will not have a deep loving relationship with any man but then again you maybe an exception to the rule.
> 
> These are just my opinions and may not apply to you but having lived your scenario somewhat for over 20 years that is what I see. White Rose I hope that you improve yourself because you still have something to give but it is just that none of us wind up with 100% of our potential.
> 
> Life can be good at 80%-90%
> 
> Blunt
> 
> 
> *By ConanHub*
> That would never be enough for me Mr. Blunt and seems like settling.* No one has to put up with or settle for a situation like that. It would feel empty and cheap. Less than 100% is not enough.*
> 
> It is like living crippled when you do not have too.


Conan, first I will say that I was relating my experience and opinions to Chris and WR based on my 20 years of R and having a somewhat similar situation as Chris and White Rose. I was not presenting anything for you. However your response is welcomed.

Since you made the statement of “No one has to put up with or settle for a situation like that. Less than 100% is not enough"
I will ask you a few questions:

*1	Do you have children and have you been cheated on?

2	If you have been cheated on how many years of experience do you have with trying to make your marriage 100%?

3	If you have made your marriage 100% after infidelity then tell us in detail how you did it*


Giving Chris and WR the hope of having a 100% marriage or life is giving unrealistic expectation that will eventually harm them IMO.

Chris and WF can get 80-90% of their potential in their relationship with each other and life can be good at that level.* I think that Chris still has some feelings for his wife but the 80-90% can occur no matter if they D or R. That will be good for them and the children.*


----------



## ConanHub

Mr Blunt said:


> Conan, first I will say that I was relating my experience and opinions to Chris and WR based on my 20 years of R and having a somewhat similar situation as Chris and White Rose. I was not presenting anything for you. However your response is welcomed.
> 
> Since you made the statement of “No one has to put up with or settle for a situation like that. Less than 100% is not enough"
> I will ask you a few questions:
> 
> *1	Do you have children and have you been cheated on?
> 
> 2	If you have been cheated on how many years of experience do you have with trying to make your marriage 100%?
> 
> 3	If you have made your marriage 100% after infidelity then tell us in detail how you did it*
> 
> 
> Giving Chris and WR the hope of having a 100% marriage or life is giving unrealistic expectation that will eventually harm them IMO.
> 
> Chris and WF can get 80-90% of their potential in their relationship with each other and life can be good at that level.* I think that Chris still has some feelings for his wife but the 80-90% can occur no matter if they D or R. That will be good for them and the children.*


Had a great reply and then the stupid phone glitches! 

I appreciate you giving advice you have followed. I just find it ill conceived. I would never take part in a relationship where I could not give and receive 100%.

I am a parent. I am a very hard man and have passed by many women that did not measure up to taking infidelity seriously. My wife knows who she married and that I will not tolerate unfaithfulness.

I have made it no mystery that I don't think R is good for Chris. Just because you were able to swallow a disgusting load of bullsh!t does not mean others should.

I do not call your R successful after 20 years if you are not at 100%.

What you settled for is something I will never advocate. 

You and I have a different view on what should be accepted in a successful marriage. Our definitions of success are not even the same.

I strongly disagree with you here. I don't believe you or anyone should settle. There is no valid reason to live even a partial farce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr Blunt

> B*y ConanHub*
> I have made it no mystery that I don't think R is good for Chris. Just because you were able to swallow a disgusting load of bullsh!t does not mean others should.
> 
> I do not call your R successful after 20 years if you are not at 100%.
> There is no valid reason to live even a partial farce.



I see you avoided answering the questions reprinted below that are pertinent to the issues you yourself brought up. *I now see why you did not answer; that is because you have absolutely no experience with what you are talking about. *

You seem to have very strong words for those that you do agree with you but your words have no experience or action behind them. You have a philosophy about infidelity but no real life experience.

What you call my R after 20 years is meaningless to me so why don’t you address Chris and WR in your posts as they are the ones that are the main posters in this thread. *I wrote my post for WR and Chris and they both liked my post and WR said it was good advice so what you think is irrelevant.*


*You are entitled to your opinion but you have not walked in my shoes or Chris’s shoes.*





> Since you made the statement of “No one has to put up with or settle for a situation like that. Less than 100% is not enough"
> 
> I will ask you a few questions:
> 
> *1 Do you have children and have you been cheated on?
> 
> 2 If you have been cheated on how many years of experience do you have with trying to make your marriage 100%?
> 
> 3 If you have made your marriage 100% after infidelity then tell us in detail how *


----------



## ConanHub

Just wanted to apologize for my harsh tone with Mr. Blunt. I disagree strongly with him but need to work on my edge.

Please accept. End jack.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IIJokerII

Conan & Blunt,

In a sense your perceptions of this divide are both accurate. Usually the prime reason, if not only reason to reconcile with a spouse who has betrayed their SO if for the sake of the children. With a lot of effort and a little luck a new sense of normalcy can and does set in and in time a new relationship can and often does forge from the pain and trials of infidelity.

However Conan cites that anything less than 100% or all of ones effort to family commitment is indeed unacceptable. This is not so say that the former wayward shall remain at the house for all eternity or other exaggerated notion. But any effort that is made for themselves should be only for themselves which indirectly will benefit them all. If the FWS wants to get fit, or have a better job, improve their health, find a religious group, etc, it should be for themselves, free from influence from outside forces. 

Percentages aside, relationships are founded on basic principals of trust, respect, love and reciprocity with various other aspects as well. Over time a foundation is made to anchor any and all of life's problems to this very baseline establishment creating a sense of calmness, warmth and a deeper love. Now when this foundation is destroyed by infidelity and R is the goal for both parties, for whatever reasons, then the foundation is rebuilt with most of the same pieces used to create the original one. Yet, there are gaps, cracks, imperfections and voids that will all need time and effort to cure to solidify this new foundation. Although I agree that the BS needs to aid in this repair as well the WS needs to lead the charge, own the damage and make sure to address any and all issues prior to them causing a problem, no matter how large and/or small. As much as a small seed of resentment can and does lead to infidelity this small seed among the betrayed can lead to resentment towards the FWS as well, which leads to separation and divorce. 

But Blunt makes some very good points that cannot be dismissed as well which brings us back to the children part. When couples split they invariably have to share a part of themselves they will never admit to liking, co-parenting. Everything is split, rules, boundries, etc. And during the times when the kids are not present or with the OTHER parent the one without will mask it with the guise of getting a break or good for them to spend time with their mother/father for the X amount of time. But in reality, for most, it is like having a part of you torn away and placed under the influence of the "Enemy". I know we are not supposed to think like this but really how many couples high fives at the destruction of their marriage, especially by infidelity. They are adversaries. 

This stigma alone of have your children taken vs sending or allowing them to go to wherever for however long is very unnerving. I can send my kids to school, summer camp, grandma's, etc. But when they HAVE to go it takes away that control feeling, the very one a parent is supposed to have as a leader and mentor for his/her children. Losing this can be frightening. 

Blunt, I'd also like to say that calling Conan out on his comments as irrelevant is not exactly a truthful statement. This is a public discussion forum and even if Chris and WR agree or disagree with his opinions they should be exposed to the possibility and general exposure of this opinion as it may be a spectrum of thought that their next, or current, relationship(s) may be standardized at. Whose to say that 10% variance/absence is what led to WR's infidelity. The both of them liking your response is not a reason to call out someone's opinion as irrelevant, disagreeable maybe, but not irrelevant. 

Conan, it also goes that a successful R is not stamped by a length of time. 20 years of R is still 20 years. Until one of them dies the R will continue until then end. Now most people of a strong nature will opine that they will never tolerate anything less than X,Y,Z. However what most, not all mind you, come to find out is that they do have it in themselves to offer up forgiveness to a person they have bonded with. How many times have we been at either end of the parent/child conflict where one was wronged by the other yet was willing to forgive them in lieu of losing the relationship. Of course a level of trust and tolerance is established right from the get go and is usually low to non existent, But in time it does return, after extreme efforts are made by the offending party to repair the damage they have done. I betrayed my mothers trust several times, hurt her, was hurt by her for hurting her and each time I had to make extreme efforts to regain her trust and friendship. At times she loved me but did not like me at all. It was up to me to change this and in time I was able to and made sure to stop doing the things I did to piss her off. I will go thru this with my own children, and have in some cases already. 

The unpredictable nature of life though will usually show us what we will and will not tolerate. And before we experience certain things we will formulate an opinion about what we would or would not do in these events. It is only when we encounter them, especially when we least expect it, do we find ourselves unprepared to follow the same standards we have preached all our lives. Ask most people here how many of them said they'd never get married and you'll see a lot of hands, mainly from the guys. But when that moment arrived these same men took the leap for something they wanted, never once thinking that a consequence such as infidelity could be incurred. Given this, it seems that the same unplanned decisions of post D-day are just as sporadic and unpredictable, just as the they were when the relationship was founded.


----------



## ConanHub

I have counseled couples trying to R. I am for it if it is a healthy choice. This situation is unhealthy in the extreme. WR does not need to be in a relationship. She needs a lot of work. Chris has shown himself capable of being in a committed relationship but if he is with WR, he is becoming damaged.

I would never counsel a couple to R if they could not build a new 100% strong marriage. Anything less is miserable on some level for both parties.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## As'laDain

So, WR, would you like to start examining your feelings on the open forums?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## As'laDain

ConanHub said:


> I have counseled couples trying to R. I am for it if it is a healthy choice. This situation is unhealthy in the extreme. WR does not need to be in a relationship. She needs a lot of work. Chris has shown himself capable of being in a committed relationship but if he is with WR, he is becoming damaged.
> 
> I would never counsel a couple to R if they could not build a new 100% strong marriage. Anything less is miserable on some level for both parties.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Conan, would you be willing to help her understand how to avoid ever falling into that trap again? Not for reconciling, for something better. So that she can stop crying alone with the full weight of her demons swallowing her up, and instead learn to become someone she loves? 

For some reason, I get the impression that you could give some very sharp insight.


Actually, I think everyone's input is good. We all come from different perspectives, and we really need all of them. Even the ones that seem inflammatory can be learned from. 

So what do you say TAM? can we set aside our desires to punish WR in order to help her kill her demons?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf

WR,

I want to apologize for being so harsh. It took me a while to come to the conclusion that you must have a darn good reason in your mind for what you did. Having children and building a family is a lot of work and generally doesn't come without thought. 

I am sorry that you had to come here where your husband has gotten support. It's true thet it will be tough for many of us to see the other side. Chris' story, while I don't remember every detail, hit me hard. I could only read it off and on because his feelings mirrored mine so closely, they triggered me. While you may think my posts in this thread were from triggers, I assure you they were not. 

They came from a place of knowledge that you understood you would lose your marriage and then used Chris once again, when you realized you could not hold onto the AP. It was a further insult added to injury. In my mind, it showed a total lack of respect for anything other than what you want. You might say that you wanted to give Chris what he wanted and tried one more time. I just don't believe it. 

Worse yet, it not only hurt him more, but it hurt you, too. You seem to be able to find a way to feel bad for what you have done and make poor decisions based on some ideal, rather than what actually might help you to heal. I don't think you have related enough information to believe otherwise. 

I think it would be incorrect to think anything you could do right now would bring you two back together permanently and produce the results you seem to want. I think the only way you might find that is to change your thinking some. I think you possibly could spark attraction and interest from Chris, but it would take a heck of a lot for him to even think about true commitment. I don't know if it is even possible.

I think you need to, if you want, do as As is recommending. I do think he is trying to help you see reality. I didn't get that at first. Sorry, As. 

You will have to figure out what is going on inside you and work on that, before you can even think about a long-term relationship. Can you do it? I think so. You may find you don't want him any more. You may find yourself to be attractive to men who are more suited to you than the ones you've been around to date. You may find your true happiness and then want to share that with a man. It certainly seems like what you have written and done to date have not made you happy, just satisfied an undeniable curiosity. I hope you will take this in the spirit it is meant. I didn't write it to hurt your feelings. I wrote in the hope that it would get you to see that you have to work on yourself, before you could ever hope to have a good relationship with Chris or anyone else. Yes, I believe you can do it, as others have.


----------



## vellocet

2ntnuf said:


> It took me a while to come to the conclusion that you must have a darn good reason in your mind for what you did.


Boy I hope this is sarcasm.


----------



## ConanHub

As'laDain said:


> Conan, would you be willing to help her understand how to avoid ever falling into that trap again? Not for reconciling, for something better. So that she can stop crying alone with the full weight of her demons swallowing her up, and instead learn to become someone she loves?
> 
> For some reason, I get the impression that you could give some very sharp insight.
> 
> 
> Actually, I think everyone's input is good. We all come from different perspectives, and we really need all of them. Even the ones that seem inflammatory can be learned from.
> 
> So what do you say TAM? can we set aside our desires to punish WR in order to help her kill her demons?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is starting to head in the right direction. Therapy will help her to talk and explore herself. Reading a lot of books on strong marriages, self control /boundaries and infidelity would help. She needs to take a very long and painfully truthful look at herself and what she has done. She needs to do some dissection of every selfish or questionable trait she finds. She can help herself by giving, her time and energy to others. To her children first and volunteer work as well. Sometimes actions really do lead the heart. It can transform you when you help others in need. She does not need to beat herself up but she does need to acknowledge her ugliness, face it, learn to dislike and hate the darkness.

During all this, she needs to take care of herself. Becoming the emotional equivalent of a holocaust victim does no one any good. Despite what she has done she needs good things to become a healthy individual. She also could really use some support, same sex, to cheer her on and keep her accountable.

She needs to hate what she has done, every bit of it and who she allowed herself to become but she has to find things within herself to love and latch onto. Areas where she has been strong and good. She can't continue to hate herself or she will not become a healthy individual. Self hate is only good to affect an immediate change, it can help resolve to change but if she stays there, it will destroy her.

It is hard work to become a better, healthier person but very worth it and I have seen it done numerous times. The very attainable goal is to become someone beautiful and strong. Someone that likes who they see in the mirror and reflected in other peoples eyes.

Someone who is worth every ounce of love and devotion that a spouse can give and able to give all of herself as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf

vellocet said:


> Boy I hope this is sarcasm.


Unfortunately, it is not sarcasm. What is a good reason to one is not to another.


----------



## ConanHub

P.S. WR, you can do this. I have seen women who have fallen farther than you come back and be the most loving, beautiful people imaginable. My mother is just such a woman. Take heart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVSqjLK0mAE

"From The Ashes" Martina Mcbride

My right hand holds matches
My left holds my past
I hope the wind catches
And burns it down fast
I'm gonna step into the fire
With my failures and my shame
And wave goodbye to yesterday
As I dance among the flames

So don't try to save me now
Let the walls of my world all burn down
Just stand back and wait 'til the smoke finally passes
And I will rise
From the ashes
From the ashes
From the ashes

For all that I'm losing much more will I gain
The hard part is choosing
To change what needs changed
My step will be much lighter
With these demons off my chest
I'm born a better spirit
And lay the old to rest

So don't try to save me now
Let the walls of my world all burn down
Just stand back and wait 'til the smoke finally passes
And I will rise
From the ashes
From the ashes
From the ashes

And I'll walk away stronger
I will be flyin'
Higher and truer
Than I've flown before

My right hand holds matches
My left holds my past
I hope the wind catches
And burns it down fast


----------



## ConanHub

Very nice Blossom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Observer

Blossom, indeed very nice. And WR, yes we all are capable of redemption and change. Learn from your mistakes, that is all you can do. You cannot control anyone but yourself. Hopefully things work out for you and you make your next relationship one to be admired. I wish the same for Chris.


----------



## vellocet

2ntnuf said:


> Unfortunately, it is not sarcasm. What is a good reason to one is not to another.


So she had good reason to cheat on her husband? Or am I misunderstanding your comment?


----------



## carmen ohio

It is interesting to compare TAM posters' reactions to White Rose -- who ended her affair, is at least in some measure remorseful and, however badly, attempted to R with her BH -- to their reaction to Zanne (http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/89193-unraveling-24-years.html) -- who began an affair with another TAM member while posting about her marital emotional infidelities, admitted to deceiving and even lying to her H about her affair, ignored virtually every bit of advice she received, and remains a cheater to this very day).

White Rose is insulted and even vilified my many, whereas Zanne is generally spoken to respectfully and even shown sympathy by some.

I'm not sure what the lesson is but it does cause me to wonder about people's motivations here and if some of you ever stop to think about what you write, or if you just react viscerally to what you read.

Kind of sad, IMO.


----------



## 2ntnuf

vellocet said:


> So she had good reason to cheat on her husband? Or am I misunderstanding your comment?


Do you want to meet me in your thread and continue this discussion? It's not productive here. WR needs support, not arguing.


----------



## vellocet

2ntnuf said:


> Do you want to meet me in your thread and continue this discussion? It's not productive here. WR needs support, not arguing.


Then PM me.

But if she feels the same as you, and that she had good reason, then not sure what kind of support is going to help.


----------



## S&W500

carmen ohio said:


> It is interesting to compare TAM posters' reactions to White Rose -- who ended her affair, is at least in some measure remorseful and, however badly, attempted to R with her BH -- to their reaction to Zanne (http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/89193-unraveling-24-years.html) -- who began an affair with another TAM member while posting about her marital emotional infidelities, admitted to deceiving and even lying to her H about her affair, ignored virtually every bit of advice she received, and remains a cheater to this very day).
> 
> White Rose is insulted and even vilified my many, whereas Zanne is generally spoken to respectfully and even shown sympathy by some.
> 
> I'm not sure what the lesson is but it does cause me to wonder about people's motivations here and if some of you ever stop to think about what you write, or if you just react viscerally to what you read.
> 
> Kind of sad, IMO.


Absolutely 100%, spot-on.


----------



## MattMatt

vellocet said:


> Then PM me.
> 
> But if she feels the same as you, and that she had good reason, then not sure what kind of support is going to help.


The support to help her grow spiritually? To grow so that she would never even consider cheating ever again?

_That_ kind of support.


----------



## vellocet

MattMatt said:


> The support to help her grow spiritually? To grow so that she would never even consider cheating ever again?
> 
> _That_ kind of support.


But IF she feels the same way, and thinks she had a good reason to cheat, then the place to start would be to tell her she did NOT have a good reason and that there aren't any good reasons. And when you do that, it is seen as bashing.

Now not saying she feels this way, I was wondering about 2's comment on it.

But if she does feel she has good reason to cheat, then spiritual growth isn't going to be in the cards. Never considering cheating again would not be in the cards either if there was perception that she had good reason, cause she can always have good reason again in the future.

But like I said, not saying she feels this way. Just a thought after 2's comment.

TJ over.


----------



## MattMatt

vellocet said:


> But IF she feels the same way, and thinks she had a good reason to cheat, then the place to start would be to tell her she did NOT have a good reason and that there aren't any good reasons. And when you do that, it is seen as bashing.
> 
> Now not saying she feels this way, I was wondering about 2's comment on it.
> 
> But if she does feel she has good reason to cheat, then spiritual growth isn't going to be in the cards. Never considering cheating again would not be in the cards either if there was perception that she had good reason, cause she can always have good reason again in the future.
> 
> But like I said, not saying she feels this way. Just a thought after 2's comment.
> 
> TJ over.


She knows that she didn't have a good reason to cheat.

Nobody ever does have a good reason to cheat. My wife didn't, I didn't, White Rose didn't, Chris didn't.


----------



## vellocet

MattMatt said:


> She knows that she didn't have a good reason to cheat.
> 
> Nobody ever does have a good reason to cheat. My wife didn't, I didn't, White Rose didn't, Chris didn't.


I know, hence why I said: "Now not saying she feels this way, I was wondering about 2's comment on it."


----------



## 2ntnuf

vellocet said:


> So she had good reason to cheat on her husband? Or am I misunderstanding your comment?


Apparently she thought she did. WR, do you care to comment on whether or not you thought you had good reason to cheat?

vellocet, you are obviously misunderstanding my comment. I tried to make that clear in pm's. You wanted to take it here. You got it. 

I think any WS has reasons they believe justify infidelity. Here's the thing you want answered. Pay close attention.

I do not think infidelity is justified by anything. I believe as I posted in your other thread. EAs and PAs, are a decision. They are a choice made by the WS. 

I posted something very similar in your thread. It was the place to do so. If you want to continue this publicly, I encourage you to post in your thread, as I asked prior to this post. All my comments regarding this are there.


----------



## vellocet

2ntnuf said:


> Apparently she thought she did. WR, do you care to comment on whether or not you thought you had good reason to cheat?
> 
> vellocet, you are obviously misunderstanding my comment. I tried to make that clear in pm's. You wanted to take it here. You got it.
> 
> I think any WS has reasons they believe justify infidelity. Here's the thing you want answered. Pay close attention.
> 
> I do not think infidelity is justified by anything. I believe as I posted in your other thread. EAs and PAs, are a decision. They are a choice made by the WS.


Well after re-reading, I see the qualifier "in your mind" when addressing WR.

All I was asking, not sure about the federal production over it.




> I posted something very similar in your thread. It was the place to do so. If you want to continue this publicly, I encourage you to post in your thread, as I asked prior to this post.


Why would I post it in my thread? It has nothing to do with whether a WS feels they have a good excuse or not.

Now we can stop the T/J


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

vellocet said:


> Then PM me.
> 
> But if she feels the same as you, and that she had good reason, then not sure what kind of support is going to help.


There were many contributing factors to why I cheated but no reason other than I gave up and decided i would do. It was my decision and it was wrong. I now have skills learned from S.Glass to shut down potential feelings, actions etc and just not get involved in any extra marital affairs.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> So, WR, would you like to start examining your feelings on the open forums?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think I may be able but am a bit apprehensive. I'd rather do it through PM as I'm just seperated and not managing too well at the moment. Going to therapy tmoz and in knots about the new woman however hypocritical that sounds it is true.


----------



## chaos

Healing yourselves as individuals should be priority number one.


----------



## MattMatt

WR, it might be better to wait until you can get into the Private Section.


----------



## Augusto

OK....so Chris is banging another chick. My question to this is would this be considered more of a revenge affair? Seems a bit odd to me that he didn't wait. After what White Rose did to him, you would think that he would slow it down to make sure he would get to know her and be really careful. Is Chris paying attention to the fact that this current woman is willing to assist with him having a relationship with her even though he is married? To be honest if this was me, I would call it a revenge affair and nothing more. And even after I would be not ready to engage in any relationship. I just don't think I would date for a long long while. Especially after being gambled away so many times behind the back. But I am not so sure Chris would have actually lived up to his end and stayed even after his demands were met. My gut feeling on this is he probably could never recover as some cannot and it was all over the minute she checked out to screw with another man. Remember that she chose to not give the marriage a chance by leaving it. But saying the relationship he is in right now is not a revenge affair is far from the truth. And Should White Rose even want him back after him having his escapades currently? Damaged goods on both ends in my opinion and they both probably deserve better as White Rose will never be loved the same by him again and Chris will never see through the care and love from his wife because he will forever see it as tainted. It was over the minute she checked out. She may have thought of him as a plan B but the result is there never was as Chris is now gone.


----------



## As'laDain

White Rose said:


> I think I may be able but am a bit apprehensive. I'd rather do it through PM as I'm just seperated and not managing too well at the moment. Going to therapy tmoz and in knots about the new woman however hypocritical that sounds it is true.


cant do it through PMs... i dont do regular PMs with women. 
plus, it kinda negates the open atmosphere.

so why are you tied in knots? is it jealousy? what do you do to keep your mind off of it? do you have any hobbies?


----------



## MattMatt

Augusto said:


> OK....so Chris is banging another chick. My question to this is would this be considered more of a revenge affair? Seems a bit odd to me that he didn't wait. After what White Rose did to him, you would think that he would slow it down to make sure he would get to know her and be really careful. Is Chris paying attention to the fact that this current woman is willing to assist with him having a relationship with her even though he is married? To be honest if this was me, I would call it a revenge affair and nothing more. And even after I would be not ready to engage in any relationship. I just don't think I would date for a long long while. Especially after being gambled away so many times behind the back. But I am not so sure Chris would have actually lived up to his end and stayed even after his demands were met. My gut feeling on this is he probably could never recover as some cannot and it was all over the minute she checked out to screw with another man. Remember that she chose to not give the marriage a chance by leaving it. But saying the relationship he is in right now is not a revenge affair is far from the truth. And Should White Rose even want him back after him having his escapades currently? Damaged goods on both ends in my opinion and they both probably deserve better as White Rose will never be loved the same by him again and Chris will never see through the care and love from his wife because he will forever see it as tainted. It was over the minute she checked out. She may have thought of him as a plan B but the result is there never was as Chris is now gone.


When my wife cheated on me it was a couple of years before I had my revenge affair. It was a long, gradual slope greased by copious amounts of alcohol.

So, yes, I can see a revenge affair taking a while to happen.

And I think that White Rose and Chris do love each other, very much. Which is why this whole situation is so bloody tragic.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: I cheated*



As'laDain said:


> cant do it through PMs... i dont do regular PMs with women.
> plus, it kinda negates the open atmosphere.
> 
> so why are you tied in knots? is it jealousy? what do you do to keep your mind off of it? do you have any hobbies?


I think WS still needs some work on boundaries. White Rose, you read Shirley Glass right? What did you learn about transparency? Privately PM'ing men on TAM is not transparent not to mention the potential boundary issues it presents. I can already anticipate your response but I will provide a counter in advance by saying that you need to practice transparency in small ways and in all aspects of your life if you intend to live honestly. You also need to start anticipating potential boundary problems by avoiding issues before they become issues. In other words don't put yourself unnecessarily in situations where your boundaries might be tested.


----------



## MattMatt

bfree said:


> I think WS still needs some work on boundaries. White Rose, you read Shirley Glass right? What did you learn about transparency? Privately PM'ing men on TAM is not transparent not to mention the potential boundary issues it presents. I can already anticipate your response but I will provide a counter in advance by saying that you need to practice transparency in small ways and in all aspects of your life if you intend to live honestly. You also need to start anticipating potential boundary problems by avoiding issues before they become issues. In other words don't put yourself unnecessarily in situations where your boundaries might be tested.


Hopefully she can share any such PMs with Chris.


----------



## As'laDain

MattMatt said:


> Hopefully she can share any such PMs with Chris.


i forward all PMs i get from any women on tam to Akinaura, and my responses. keeps us aware and honest. 

its a good practice.


----------



## GusPolinski

As'laDain said:


> i forward all PMs i get from any women on tam to Akinaura, and my responses. keeps us aware and honest.
> 
> its a good practice.


I forward all of my PMs to Bandit.

Hmm... maybe that's why he bailed...?!?

:lol:


----------



## RV9

GusPolinski said:


> I forward all of my PMs to Bandit.
> 
> Hmm... maybe that's why he bailed...?!?
> 
> :lol:


??


----------



## GusPolinski

RV9 said:


> ??


It was a joke. And, clearly, a bad one.


----------



## MattMatt

GusPolinski said:


> I forward all of my PMs to Bandit.
> 
> Hmm... maybe that's why he bailed...?!?
> 
> :lol:




Good Lord!:rofl:


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Joker*
> Blunt, I'd also like to say that calling Conan out on his comments as irrelevant is not exactly a truthful statement. This is a public discussion forum and even if Chris and WR agree or disagree with his opinions they should be exposed to the possibility and general exposure of this opinion as it may be a spectrum of thought that their next, or current, relationship(s) may be standardized at. Whose to say that 10% variance/absence is what led to WR's infidelity. The both of them liking your response is not a reason to call out someone's opinion as irrelevant, disagreeable maybe, but not irrelevant


.


Joker, your post above seems to indicate that I deemed Conan’s comments regarding Chris and WR as irrelevant. I did not call Conan’s comment irrelevant regarding Chris and WR. *I was saying that Conan’s comments that my R was swallowing “ a disgusting load of bullsh!t” and “a partial farce” was irrelevant to my R. Conan’s opinion of my R does not change the truth about my R. * Joker I think you got the wrong intent of my post to Conan. 


Conan has already shown that he is a stand up man and is strong enough to apologize and I have fully accepted Conan’s apology. Conan and I just have a different view point on the R in Chris and WR’s case. My point is that you can try 100% to R but that sometimes there is damage that is permanent and the best you can get is 80-90%. I also said that "Life can be good at 80%-90%."

Conan has a different view and said



> By Conan
> It would feel empty and cheap. Less than 100% is not enough.
> It is like living crippled when you do not have too.


What I think that Conan and I agree on is that we both want to help Chris and WR. We also both know that Chris and WR have a very hard road ahead of them but they can get through this as many have. Regardless if WR and Chris R or D I hope that that not only do they get help on this forum but also with other helps such as books, professional help, friends, family, church, etc.


----------



## jim123

White Rose said:


> I think I may be able but am a bit apprehensive. I'd rather do it through PM as I'm just seperated and not managing too well at the moment. Going to therapy tmoz and in knots about the new woman however hypocritical that sounds it is true.


You do not deserve this, no one does. It is not hypocritical, you are human.


----------



## Wolfman1968

ConanHub said:


> Don't open the door. For inside dwells madness.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is that H.P. Lovecraft?


----------



## ricky15100

The prize ain't worth the fight, Chris why should you have to go through all this work with her when you've done nothing to deserve it. 

I'd cut her loose now.

I feel she's using this forum where you once came for support to hoover you back in.

If she'd done it once fair enough give her a shot but twice! She's asking you to put your hands back in the fire.


----------



## MattMatt

ricky15100 said:


> The prize ain't worth the fight, Chris why should you have to go through all this work with her when you've done nothing to deserve it.
> 
> I'd cut her loose now.
> 
> I feel she's using this forum where you once came for support to hoover you back in.
> 
> If she'd done it once fair enough give her a shot but twice! She's asking you to put your hands back in the fire.


Yeah, you'd cut her lose. 

Then you negate what you say by using words like "prize."

Good Lord, man! This is not a game! It's a real relationship, between two people.

It went wrong because one of the partners lost sight of their own authentic self and fell under the thrall of a man with a reputation (it transpired) as a marriage wrecker.

Now, you would not forgive her.

Well, bully for you, as we say in Britain.

But! You do not love her, you did not make babies with her.

*But Chris does and Chris did.*


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yep, no amount of cheating will ever change the fact that she is the mother of his children. As well as he is the father of her children. 

They will always have this connection and will have to learn to navigate it married or not.


----------



## 2ntnuf

WR,

Post anything till you can get into the private section. It is less trouble than the public forums.


----------



## Chris989

2ntnuf said:


> WR,
> 
> Post anything till you can get into the private section. It is less trouble than the public forums.


Although the replies are more focused, you do also by definition get fewer.

I always felt that, provided you can ignore the angry people then it is more useful using the public section.


----------



## DayOne

Chris989 said:


> Although the replies are more focused, you do also by definition get fewer.
> 
> I always felt that, provided you can ignore the angry people then it is more useful using the public section.



:iagree: You just have to tune out the 'pitchfork and torches' brigade. AKA the 'burn victims'. 

Personally, i still see a glimmer of hope for you two. Don't let the mob drag you down.


----------



## RV9

You both loved each other once and you may love again. Keep the faith.


----------



## wmn1

MattMatt said:


> Yeah, you'd cut her lose.
> 
> Then you negate what you say by using words like "prize."
> 
> Good Lord, man! This is not a game! It's a real relationship, between two people.
> 
> It went wrong because one of the partners lost sight of their own authentic self and fell under the thrall of a man with a reputation (it transpired) as a marriage wrecker.
> 
> Now, you would not forgive her.
> 
> Well, bully for you, as we say in Britain.
> 
> But! You do not love her, you did not make babies with her.
> 
> *But Chris does and Chris did.*


but most of the relationships I have seen personally broken up by infidelity went down in a smoldering wreck. Most of the new relationships I have seen, kids or not, have blossomed because a 'reset' button was hit and 4 of my best friends who dealt with severe trauma (not talking about my own case) are happy and living large with their new wives, no baggage, no bad memories and even the ex wives are doing ok, despite their transgressions. The kids, while they may not know the full extent of what happened yet, get along with the steps very well.

The answer is not always in R. The answer is sometimes in getting rid of the diseased relationship and moving on.

In this case, I don't know what Chris is up to, but there is light on the other side. 

This is a pretty flagrant case of spousal abuse in my opinion. If Chris is ok with that and wants to get back, fine. But if he chooses to leave, and I certainly would in these circumstances, good for him.

In the end, it's his choice. But living a pipe dream after a completely fake R doesn't bode well.

Staying together for the kids is not always the best


----------



## ricky15100

MattMatt said:


> Yeah, you'd cut her lose.
> 
> Then you negate what you say by using words like "prize."
> 
> Good Lord, man! This is not a game! It's a real relationship, between two people.
> 
> It went wrong because one of the partners lost sight of their own authentic self and fell under the thrall of a man with a reputation (it transpired) as a marriage wrecker.
> 
> Now, you would not forgive her.
> 
> Well, bully for you, as we say in Britain.
> 
> But! You do not love her, you did not make babies with her.
> 
> *But Chris does and Chris did.*


Matt I appreciate what you're saying, and admire your optimism, you always see the good, and it's an admirable quality.

What you've done though is let her off the hook and let the om take the full brunt of this without taking responsibility. 

She hurt him badly once, she saw the pain she put him through, he gave her the gift of R, and what did she do with that gift?

She must have seen the amount of pain he went through the first time, but then did it again!!!! And now because she's here crying about what she's lost because Chris has finally found his balls, and she's saying all the right things and had one therapy session that means she's obviously seen the light???

She's in deluxe hoover mode my friend, doing anything and everything to lure the fly back into the Web. 

Once there and things go back to how they were, normal service will resume.

You say it's not a game, and I agree, this is Chris ' life and you're asking him to put himself through hell while she does some soul searching!!!

Like I said, the first time she betrayed him give her a chance to make amends, she didn't, she flew to an even higher altitude and had a bigger dump on him and now you think he should go back for round 3.

She's now infiltrated his support group and now hasn't even got this privacy, talk about urinating on privacy and boundaries! !!


----------



## wmn1

carmen ohio said:


> It is interesting to compare TAM posters' reactions to White Rose -- who ended her affair, is at least in some measure remorseful and, however badly, attempted to R with her BH -- to their reaction to Zanne (http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/89193-unraveling-24-years.html) -- who began an affair with another TAM member while posting about her marital emotional infidelities, admitted to deceiving and even lying to her H about her affair, ignored virtually every bit of advice she received, and remains a cheater to this very day).
> 
> White Rose is insulted and even vilified my many, whereas Zanne is generally spoken to respectfully and even shown sympathy by some.
> 
> I'm not sure what the lesson is but it does cause me to wonder about people's motivations here and if some of you ever stop to think about what you write, or if you just react viscerally to what you read.
> 
> Kind of sad, IMO.


yet both cases are bad. Zanne worse of course, insanely worse. Yes, people (or some) here may be inconsistent with their criticisms. My only problem here are the people who equate WR's actions with Chris'. Both ended up doing wrong but one did wrong on steroids (even self admittedly) the other is struggling to figure himself out. It is not doing Chris any justice by equating his actions with hers. He even went so far as to remarry her and still get screwed.

I am not posting this to break her down, or even to push Chris up. But the facts are the facts and to some here, the # of times and the length of time you cheated and how flagrantly you did, does matter. 

Even stepping outside of this current thread, if someone cheated 200 times with 6 different men/women, and the BS stepped outside one night in retaliation, I have no comprehension how someone could equate the two. It's like comparing an armed robber with a petty thief. There are different levels of bad. 

This case isn't that bad but it's pretty lopsided but people here are equating. And then trashing fellow board members for calling it out.

To me, that's what is problematic.

BTW, if Chris and WR again work it out, good for them.


----------



## ConanHub

WR. I hope your therapy session went well today. What good thing are you going to do for someone else today and what good thing for yourself?

Another thing to consider about becoming healthier is toxic friends and family.

You need to cut toxic friends out of your life completely and cut toxic family out until you are healthier with better boundaries.

Finding strong and healthy people to befriend is very nearly vital. People with strong values, good boundaries and healthy relationships.

We are always influenced and learn from who we allow in our lives.

They don't have to be your age group but should have several years of successful LTR behind them and doing well at the present.

Again, make sure to get close to women. Knowing a couple is great but the goal is a close relationship with another woman with years of good experience.


----------



## wmn1

ConanHub said:


> WR. I hope your therapy session went well today. What good thing are you going to do for someone else today and what good thing for yourself?
> 
> Another thing to consider about becoming healthier is toxic friends and family.
> 
> You need to cut toxic friends out of your life completely and cut toxic family out until you are healthier with better boundaries.
> 
> Finding strong and healthy people to befriend is very nearly vital. People with strong values, good boundaries and healthy relationships.
> 
> We are always influenced and learn from who we allow in our lives.
> 
> They don't have to be your age group but should have several years of successful LTR behind them and doing well at the present.
> 
> Again, make sure to get close to women. Knowing a couple is great but the goal is a close relationship with another woman with years of good experience.


I agree Conan. And I am glad she is making progress. And you are right in that good influences can help, especially if there is any chance at a successful R


----------



## GusPolinski

jim123 said:


> You do not deserve this, no one does. It is not hypocritical, you are human.


You're right. She doesn't deserve this. Or does she...?

Let's say that I were to drive down to the local zoo, slather myself with bacon grease, douse myself w/ pig's blood, and then walk into one of the big cat enclosures. Should I -- or anyone, for that matter -- be surprised when I get mauled or possibly killed? Additionally, would I have deserved it? Maybe not, _but not only would I have failed to take steps to prevent it from happening, *I would have actively chosen a course of action that any marginally intelligent and non-mentally handicapped 12-year-old could predict would lead to that exact outcome.*_

So, while WR may not deserve the pain and anguish that she's currently experiencing, given the pain and anguish that she's inflicted upon Chris, coupled w/ her relative inaction over the course of the past couple of years, does she deserve to keep him? Only Chris can truly answer that question, but the answer that would seem to be obvious to many is a resounding "No!"


----------



## happy as a clam

MattMatt said:


> _Now, you would not forgive her.
> 
> Well, bully for you, as we say in Britain.
> 
> But! You do not love her, you did not make babies with her. *But Chris does and Chris did.*_


C'mon Matt. Easy on the drama.

Yes, Chris forgave her... _but she screwed him over AGAIN!!_
Your perceptions are jaded by your own "revenge affair", copious amounts of alcohol (by your own admission) and your own associated guilt.

Chris did the right thing by leaving again. I hope he finds happiness on the other side, without having to live and relive his long-time wife's betrayal and deceitfulness.

*More power to him and his current or future girlfriends!!*


----------



## wmn1

GusPolinski said:


> You're right. She doesn't deserve this. Or does she...?
> 
> Let's say that I were to drive down to the local zoo, slather myself with bacon grease, douse myself w/ pig's blood, and then walk into one of the big cat enclosures. Should I -- or anyone, for that matter -- be surprised when I get mauled or possibly killed? Additionally, would I have deserved it? Maybe not, _but not only would I have failed to take steps to prevent it from happening, *I would have actively chosen a course of action that any marginally intelligent and non-mentally handicapped 12-year-old could predict would lead to that exact outcome.*_
> 
> So, while WR may not deserve the pain and anguish that she's currently experiencing, given the pain and anguish that she's inflicted upon Chris, coupled w/ her relative inaction over the course of the past couple of years, does she deserve to keep him? Only Chris can truly answer that question, but the answer that would seem to be obvious to many is a resounding "No!"


I agree Gus


----------



## Suspecting2014

WR,

Just let him go, Cris already has been through more than most of us could bear. Now he deserves to be happy with or without you.

Be glad and grateful that you are still friends and move on.

Keep venting if you feel like, and keep imporving your self for your kids.

Good luck.


----------



## MattMatt

ricky15100 said:


> Matt I appreciate what you're saying, and admire your optimism, you always see the good, and it's an admirable quality.
> 
> What you've done though is let her off the hook and let the om take the full brunt of this without taking responsibility.
> 
> She hurt him badly once, she saw the pain she put him through, he gave her the gift of R, and what did she do with that gift?
> 
> She must have seen the amount of pain he went through the first time, but then did it again!!!! And now because she's here crying about what she's lost because Chris has finally found his balls, and she's saying all the right things and had one therapy session that means she's obviously seen the light???
> 
> She's in deluxe hoover mode my friend, doing anything and everything to lure the fly back into the Web.
> 
> Once there and things go back to how they were, normal service will resume.
> 
> You say it's not a game, and I agree, this is Chris ' life and you're asking him to put himself through hell while she does some soul searching!!!
> 
> Like I said, the first time she betrayed him give her a chance to make amends, she didn't, she flew to an even higher altitude and had a bigger dump on him and now you think he should go back for round 3.
> 
> She's now infiltrated his support group and now hasn't even got this privacy, talk about urinating on privacy and boundaries! !!


She didn't infiltrate his support group.  *He invited her here!*


----------



## happy as a clam

MattMatt said:


> She didn't infiltrate his support group.  *He invited her here!*


Sorry Matt... I usually agree with you... but IMHO you're WAY OFF on this one. Who cares WHO invited WHO to this marriage website, or any other for that matter? They have a dysfunctional, codependent, symbiotic relationship at best. Chris needs to stand on his own two feet, apart from HER, and find out WHO HE REALLY IS. Deep searching, introspection, personal investigation, counseling.

White Rose had a chance... she blew it. Multiple times. Let her lick her wounds and learn from her mistakes. Sometimes in life it doesn't all work out like you "planned" and you have to accept the destruction you (and others) caused.

Chris needs to *move on* with a shot at a life and happiness!!


----------



## GusPolinski

MattMatt said:


> Yeah, you'd cut her lose.
> 
> Then you negate what you say by using words like "prize."
> 
> Good Lord, man! This is not a game! It's a real relationship, between two people.
> 
> It went wrong because one of the partners lost sight of their own authentic self and fell under the thrall of a man with a reputation (it transpired) as a marriage wrecker.
> 
> Now, you would not forgive her.
> 
> Well, bully for you, as we say in Britain.
> 
> But! You do not love her, you did not make babies with her.
> 
> *But Chris does and Chris did.*


I'll say it yet again...

Forgiveness and divorce aren't mutually exclusive.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Easy y'all... lets kick it down a notch.


----------



## GusPolinski

Blossom Leigh said:


> Easy y'all... lets kick it down a notch.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

GusPolinski said:


>



:rofl:


----------



## MattMatt

happy as a clam said:


> Sorry Matt... I usually agree with you... but IMHO you're WAY OFF on this one. Who cares WHO invited WHO to this marriage website, or any other for that matter? They have a dysfunctional, codependent, symbiotic relationship at best. Chris needs to stand on his own two feet, apart from HER, and find out WHO HE REALLY IS. Deep searching, introspection, personal investigation, counseling.
> 
> White Rose had a chance... she blew it. Multiple times. Let her lick her wounds and learn from her mistakes. Sometimes in life it doesn't all work out like you "planned" and you have to accept the destruction you (and others) caused.
> 
> Chris needs to *move on* with a shot at a life and happiness!!


So, you believe she actually infiltrated TAM? Really? You don't believe that. And nor do I.

Some posts are getting a little over the top and even paranoid.

They need to dial it back or a moderator will eventually have to come down here a tidy things up.

And we don't want that.


----------



## wmn1

MattMatt said:


> So, you believe she actually infiltrated TAM? Really? You don't believe that. And nor do I.
> 
> Some posts are getting a little over the top and even paranoid.
> 
> They need to dial it back or a moderator will eventually have to come down here a tidy things up.
> 
> And we don't want that.


Woohoo Go Liverpool

I love the "red"


----------



## happy as a clam

MattMatt said:


> So, you believe she actually infiltrated TAM? Really? You don't believe that. And nor do I.
> 
> Some posts are getting a little over the top and even paranoid.
> 
> They need to dial it back or a moderator will eventually have to come down here a tidy things up.
> 
> And we don't want that.


I don't believe I've stated anything that needs "tidying up" by the mods. Perhaps you think you have?


----------



## BjornFree

WhiteRose, your primary motivation(as I see it) for "change" is based on fear. Fear of losing the security you had. While that in itself is not a bad thing, it won't take you far. 

This also explains why you didn't go out of your way to set this situation right over the past two years. You just did not have the right motivation to do a damn thing.

I think you need to take a good hard look at yourself, its called introspection and people don't do it that often because they're content with the car wreck that is their life.

Take this as an opportunity to be a better person and not necessarily a better wife. The more you pull, the farther you'll push him - that's the dynamic of any relationship which isn't balanced. You need to work on the inside to get the outside result you're desperately(???) hoping for.

Having said that, I think Chris is a great guy who's finally waking up to the fact that he's worth much more than being "leftovers" in your relationship.


----------



## MattMatt

happy as a clam said:


> I don't believe I've stated anything that needs "tidying up" by the mods. Perhaps you think you have?


You have said nothing that needs tidying up by the mods. And neither have I.

However, when there's a "I am a cheater thread" some people on TAM get a bit over excited, say things they might wish they hadn't and get banned for their troubles.


----------



## MattMatt

BjornFree said:


> WhiteRose, your primary motivation(as I see it) for "change" is based on fear. Fear of losing the security you had. While that in itself is not a bad thing, it won't take you far.
> 
> This also explains why you didn't go out of your way to set this situation right over the past two years. You just did not have the right motivation to do a damn thing.
> 
> I think you need to take a good hard look at yourself, its called introspection and people don't do it that often because they're content with the car wreck that is their life.
> 
> Take this as an opportunity to be a better person and not necessarily a better wife. The more you pull, the farther you'll push him - that's the dynamic of any relationship which isn't balanced. You need to work on the inside to get the outside result you're desperately(???) hoping for.
> 
> Having said that, I think Chris is a great guy who's finally waking up to the fact that he's worth much more than being "leftovers" in your relationship.


I think White Rose was fearful, fearful of how to handle the utter hash she made of her life.

I mean, you have an affair with the type of man she had her affair with, how can you fix that?


----------



## GusPolinski

BjornFree said:


> WhiteRose, your primary motivation(as I see it) for "change" is based on fear. Fear of losing the security you had. While that in itself is not a bad thing, it won't take you far.
> 
> This also explains why you didn't go out of your way to set this situation right over the past two years. You just did not have the right motivation to do a damn thing.
> 
> I think you need to take a good hard look at yourself, its called introspection and people don't do it that often because they're content with the car wreck that is their life.
> 
> Take this as an opportunity to be a better person and not necessarily a better wife. The more you pull, the farther you'll push him - that's the dynamic of any relationship which isn't balanced. You need to work on the inside to get the outside result you're desperately(???) hoping for.
> 
> Having said that, I think Chris is a great guy who's finally waking up to the fact that he's worth much more than being "leftovers" in your relationship.


"It's only at the precipice that we change."


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> cant do it through PMs... i dont do regular PMs with women.
> plus, it kinda negates the open atmosphere.
> 
> so why are you tied in knots? is it jealousy? what do you do to keep your mind off of it? do you have any hobbies?


I am struggling like mad, me and chris have been a very close family orientated couple. I have few friends as he was everything, sounds funny but he was. I am not very motivated at the moment. I have been off work and surrounding myself with the children 100 percent. I am missing him like crazy and pissing him off by not giving him space. He seems to really like this girl and fell for me within 6 months and seems totally smitten by her despite saying they have nothing in common really. I don't know, he was so confused, I think he thinks he wants to come back but this new relationship will smother that. What do I do? I only have one night a week off work and weekends which I need find something to do for when the girls go see him. I'm totally lost without him.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

MattMatt said:


> When my wife cheated on me it was a couple of years before I had my revenge affair. It was a long, gradual slope greased by copious amounts of alcohol.
> 
> So, yes, I can see a revenge affair taking a while to happen.
> 
> And I think that White Rose and Chris do love each other, very much. Which is why this whole situation is so bloody tragic.


We do love each other so much, you can feel it. He is giving it a shot with the OW now so I have to let that go and wish him well.


----------



## ConanHub

How was therapy? You probably need to talk about co dependency. You need to become a healthy individual.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

bfree said:


> I think WS still needs some work on boundaries. White Rose, you read Shirley Glass right? What did you learn about transparency? Privately PM'ing men on TAM is not transparent not to mention the potential boundary issues it presents. I can already anticipate your response but I will provide a counter in advance by saying that you need to practice transparency in small ways and in all aspects of your life if you intend to live honestly. You also need to start anticipating potential boundary problems by avoiding issues before they become issues. In other words don't put yourself unnecessarily in situations where your boundaries might be tested.


So sorry, a bit naive there, how do you forward PM's to someone else then, I don't get it. I could send to chris I suppose. He can get rid if he wants but at least he knows they are legit.


----------



## GusPolinski

bfree said:


> I think WS still needs some work on boundaries. White Rose, you read Shirley Glass right? What did you learn about transparency? Privately PM'ing men on TAM is not transparent not to mention the potential boundary issues it presents. I can already anticipate your response but I will provide a counter in advance by saying that you need to practice transparency in small ways and in all aspects of your life if you intend to live honestly. You also need to start anticipating potential boundary problems by avoiding issues before they become issues. In other words don't put yourself unnecessarily in situations where your boundaries might be tested.


Word.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

RV9 said:


> You both loved each other once and you may love again. Keep the faith.


Keep the faith, now that's a fantastic song if ever there was one, Chris will know what I mean by that.


----------



## jim123

GusPolinski said:


> You're right. She doesn't deserve this. Or does she...?
> 
> Let's say that I were to drive down to the local zoo, slather myself with bacon grease, douse myself w/ pig's blood, and then walk into one of the big cat enclosures. Should I -- or anyone, for that matter -- be surprised when I get mauled or possibly killed? Additionally, would I have deserved it? Maybe not, _but not only would I have failed to take steps to prevent it from happening, *I would have actively chosen a course of action that any marginally intelligent and non-mentally handicapped 12-year-old could predict would lead to that exact outcome.*_
> 
> So, while WR may not deserve the pain and anguish that she's currently experiencing, given the pain and anguish that she's inflicted upon Chris, coupled w/ her relative inaction over the course of the past couple of years, does she deserve to keep him? Only Chris can truly answer that question, but the answer that would seem to be obvious to many is a resounding "No!"


Nope, WR did pay a price. Chris asked for and got a D. Chris was single for over a year and could have left. He did not.

Chris said that the time he did not leave because WR was doing every thing he asked and more. 

6 months ago, much a surprise, Chris again married WR.

Now Chris has become a WS just a few months later


----------



## jim123

White Rose said:


> I am struggling like mad, me and chris have been a very close family orientated couple. I have few friends as he was everything, sounds funny but he was. I am not very motivated at the moment. I have been off work and surrounding myself with the children 100 percent. I am missing him like crazy and pissing him off by not giving him space. He seems to really like this girl and fell for me within 6 months and seems totally smitten by her despite saying they have nothing in common really. I don't know, he was so confused, I think he thinks he wants to come back but this new relationship will smother that. What do I do? I only have one night a week off work and weekends which I need find something to do for when the girls go see him. I'm totally lost without him.


You should not just allow this. He is your H. Stand up for yourself and your M


----------



## GusPolinski

jim123 said:


> Nope, WR did pay a price. Chris asked for and got a D. Chris was single for over a year and could have left. He did not.
> 
> Chris said that the time he did not leave because WR was doing every thing he asked and more.
> 
> 6 months ago, much a surprise, Chris again married WR.


Semantics.



jim123 said:


> Now Chris has become a WS just a few months later


Indeed.


----------



## GusPolinski

jim123 said:


> You should not just allow this. He is your H. Stand up for yourself and your M


What would you advise? What could she do at this point that _wouldn't_ push him further away?

We say it to BS's all the time... 

"The only way that you're going to get him/her back is to muster up some self-respect, suck it up, go NC to the degree possible, pull a solid 180, and work on improving YOU."

Why? _Because it's true._


----------



## tom67

Sadly everything came to a head.
You made him get the big v.
You took bc for the other man.
Total emasculation for 21/2 years.
This is not complicated.

Surprised it took him this long.


----------



## jim123

GusPolinski said:


> What would you advise? What could she do at this point that _wouldn't_ push him further away?
> 
> We say it to BS's all the time...
> 
> "The only way that you're going to get him/her back is to muster up some self-respect, suck it up, go NC to the degree possible, pull a solid 180, and work on improving YOU."
> 
> Why? _Because it's true._


Nope, it is either R or D. Never limbo.


----------



## ThePheonix

White Rose said:


> now that's a fantastic song if ever there was one, Chris will know what I mean by that.


I hope it ain't R & B.


----------



## Suspecting2014

WR

You know what you did, Chris knows as well, so it is time to learn how to live with it. Yu really need to let the pain and the fear go. At this moment there is not point on holding it.

IMO the best chance you have ti win Chris back is put the past in the past and bury it. This is very important for you to be the woman, mother and (maybe again) the wife you could be.

Think of this, Chris was in te same marriage and maybe he felt that it wasn't that good as you did(I am referring the things that lead you to the affair).. Maybe he didn't realize it at the moment as you did. For the last 2 years he was analizing, among other things, everything about the marriage before the affair.

At this very moment Chris is experiencing a brand new relation, a healty one. So besides the exitment of a new relation (Dopamine), he is realizing all the thing that were missing before the affair, and that were missing the last 2 years...

Find the way to forgive your self ASAP and become the best version on you! 

Realize that maybe Chris is gone for good and you must forgive you for your self.


----------



## Chris989

Just rushing out but want to make it clear I asked WR to come here.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Sometimes things are just damage beyond repair. Only thing for each person to do is work on each of their own issues, learn, and move on. If things can be amicable, then it is wise to do so. After the personal growth and both are free, then perhaps a new relationship can start with two healthy people at the helm. Chris is in self protective mode, and will not be vulnerable to white rose anytime soon. Mentally, she is his trigger for his source of pain. Being with her is probably causing him distress, and he probably does not want to deal with it anymore. He can't picture her without the pain and suffering involved.


----------



## Augusto

White Rose said:


> I am struggling like mad, me and chris have been a very close family orientated couple. I have few friends as he was everything, sounds funny but he was. I am not very motivated at the moment. I have been off work and surrounding myself with the children 100 percent. I am missing him like crazy and pissing him off by not giving him space. He seems to really like this girl and fell for me within 6 months and seems totally smitten by her despite saying they have nothing in common really. I don't know, he was so confused, I think he thinks he wants to come back but this new relationship will smother that. What do I do? I only have one night a week off work and weekends which I need find something to do for when the girls go see him. I'm totally lost without him.


OK...we know you are hurting......however did you ever think of the consequences of your actions during the affair? You are being torn apart inside with him getting his winky wet with another woman but what he went through is pure hell on earth. If he truly loved you, he would be able to see through some of this with his revenge affair. I am wondering if this "deep love" you speak of for each other is only one-sided and you are giving yourself a false sense that he feels the same. Sort of like when you thought the other man loved you. These true feelings might have to be sorted out by a therapist.


----------



## MattMatt

White Rose said:


> So sorry, a bit naive there, how do you forward PM's to someone else then, I don't get it. I could send to chris I suppose. He can get rid if he wants but at least he knows they are legit.


You can copy it, click on the other person's PM thingy (see how baffled I am by all this technology?) then paste the PM into the new PM field and press send.


----------



## MattMatt

jim123 said:


> Nope, it is either R or D. Never limbo.


Yeah, except that's how I handled my situation.

And it worked, up to a point.


----------



## MattMatt

ThePheonix said:


> I hope it ain't R & B.


It's probably Northern Soul.

And Chris and White Rose will know all about that!:smthumbup:


----------



## As'laDain

White Rose said:


> So sorry, a bit naive there, how do you forward PM's to someone else then, I don't get it. I could send to chris I suppose. He can get rid if he wants but at least he knows they are legit.


Whenever a woman on TAM PMs me, i copy the message and my response and I send it to my wife before I respond. She does the same for me. We have not had an issue of starting private relationships with TAMmers because of this. If someone starts starts trying to relate to the other and fulfill emotional needs, such as showing sympathy, the other of us is aware of it and can call it out, BEFORE it gets to the point where we feel a connection. This is how we avoid falling into a situation where we are getting our emotional needs met by someone else. 

It also makes us pay attention to what we are saying, to make sure we are not unconsciously trying to make a third party feel good. Alone, we may not even notice that we are doing it. We may just think we are being nice, but if I write something and my wife Feels jealous, it's because she sees it as me fulfilling emotional needs in someone else. It would be me giving things that should go to my wife to someone else. It could be something as simple as attention, but if it is a need for my wife, it could just as easily be a need for someone else. 

So, that's why we do it. We keep each other aware of when we are starting down that slippery slope, because it almost ALWAYS starts out innocently.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

jim123 said:


> Nope, it is either R or D. Never limbo.


To be clear, I don't disagree w/ this.


----------



## harrybrown

Sorry for your pain and your H's pain.

I guess you can relate to the flooding of emotions that Chris felt for so long. 

If you can find the right counselor, that may help to find a way to decrease the pain, the anger, the rage.

The cheating, the lies, the betrayal eat at you. I could not think of anything else. Self-esteem in the toilet. 

I can not control anyone or anything other than try to point myself in a good direction. Chris may not have fallen into temptation if his self-esteem was not damaged by your A. That is a long time to think about you with choosing someone else. 

So now I try to work on me. I hope you find a way to find some peace. I would not wish cheating on anyone. Now I hope the OM will be cheated on in every relationship for the rest of his life. 

Got to go and be busy to not think about this anymore right now.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: I cheated*



As'laDain said:


> Whenever a woman on TAM PMs me, i copy the message and my response and I send it to my wife before I respond. She does the same for me. We have not had an issue of starting private relationships with TAMmers because of this. If someone starts starts trying to relate to the other and fulfill emotional needs, such as showing sympathy, the other of us is aware of it and can call it out, BEFORE it gets to the point where we feel a connection. This is how we avoid falling into a situation where we are getting our emotional needs met by someone else.
> 
> It also makes us pay attention to what we are saying, to make sure we are not unconsciously trying to make a third party feel good. Alone, we may not even notice that we are doing it. We may just think we are being nice, but if I write something and my wife Feels jealous, it's because she sees it as me fulfilling emotional needs in someone else. It would be me giving things that should go to my wife to someone else. It could be something as simple as attention, but if it is a need for my wife, it could just as easily be a need for someone else.
> 
> So, that's why we do it. We keep each other aware of when we are starting down that slippery slope, because it almost ALWAYS starts out innocently.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wish I could like this 1000X. This is how you keep a marriage strong and safe! WS, note this for the future. This is what healthy boundaries look like.


----------



## carmen ohio

If I'm reading their posts correctly, some people here are saying that it's OK for Chris989 to cheat on White Rose because she first cheated on him. I find this disturbing.

One of most commonly expressed views on TAM/CWI is that there is no excuse for cheating. There are a number of justifications for this position, including that it is required in order to preserve the sanctity (or, for the non-religious, the integrity) of marriage and because, however bad a marriage may be, the would-be cheater always has the chance to leave it honorably before entering into an emotionally and/or physically intimate relationship with someone else.

Another justification for the position, and the one that I find the most compelling, is that, once one accepts any excuse for cheating, one opens the door to any number of excuses (he ignored me, she didn't understand me, we had no sex life, etc.) such that it becomes difficult if not impossible to condemn any example of cheating, as the wayward can always offer an excuse that the betrayed cannot refute.

I understand that people sympathize with Chris989 as a betrayed spouse, but that does not require them to excuse his cheating. We can still support people while we call them out for their bad behavior. In fact, truly supporting people requires us to point out their faults in order that they have an opportunity and the incentive to fix themselves and thereby improve theirs and their families' lives.

Given that Chris989 is married to White Rose, he should end his adulterous relationship. Until he does so, he is every bit as much a cheater as she was. Based on his comments, I believe he understands and accepts this. I wish everybody here did too.

My apologies for making two _'preachy'_ posts in one thread but I feel strongly about both issues.


----------



## Observer

carmen ohio said:


> If I'm reading their posts correctly, some people here are saying that it's OK for Chris989 to cheat on White Rose because she first cheated on him. I find this disturbing.
> 
> One of most commonly expressed views on TAM/CWI is that there is no excuse for cheating. There are a number of justifications for this position, including that it is required in order to preserve the sanctity (or, for the non-religious, the integrity) of marriage and because, however bad a marriage may be, the would-be cheater always has the chance to leave it honorably before entering into an emotionally and/or physically intimate relationship with someone else.
> 
> Another justification for the position, and the one that I find the most compelling, is that, once one accepts any excuse for cheating, one opens the door to any number of excuses (he ignored me, she didn't understand me, we had no sex life, etc.) such that it becomes difficult if not impossible to condemn any example of cheating, as the wayward can always offer an excuse that the betrayed cannot refute.
> 
> I understand that people sympathize with Chris989 as a betrayed spouse, but that does not require them to excuse his cheating. We can still support people while we call them out for their bad behavior. In fact, truly supporting people requires us to point out their faults in order that they have an opportunity and the incentive to fix themselves and thereby improve theirs and their families' lives.
> 
> Given that Chris989 is married to White Rose, he should end his adulterous relationship. Until he does so, he is every bit as much a cheater as she was. Based on his comments, I believe he understands and accepts this. I wish everybody here did too.
> 
> My apologies for making two _'preachy'_ posts in one thread but I feel strongly about both issues.


Good post! I agree, he needs to either D or R, having a girl in the situation is not helping himself or the situation.


----------



## As'laDain

The funny thing, and I do mean funny as anything but, is that unless WR had been cheated on, I don't think she could really empathize with him. I don't think she really understood the pain he went through, until now. 

Chris, on the other hand, knows exactly what he is doing to her. And now she knows what he went through.

The whole thing is very sad. Either one of them is worthy of forgiveness, or neither of them. Personally, I feel that forgiveness does nothing for the offender unless they are remorseful for their offense and have decided to stop.

And only one of them is choosing to put the other through this kind of pain right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Destruction layered on destruction.


----------



## vellocet

carmen ohio said:


> If I'm reading their posts correctly, some people here are saying that it's OK for Chris989 to cheat on White Rose because she first cheated on him. I find this disturbing.


I don't know to which posts you are referring, and you may be right that they are condoning revenge affair for Chris, but I'll just state it the way I see it.

No, I absolutely do NOT condone revenge affairs. IMO, that would make the BS no better. 




> Given that Chris989 is married to White Rose, he should end his adulterous relationship.


If they are to R, I absolutely agree. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought I read where Chris is on his way out of this marriage. In that case I'd still agree that he should wait until the marriage is officially over. That's just me though, but the latter situation is a little different. If he is on his way out of the marriage, he probably doesn't see any reason to leave it.




> Until he does so, he is every bit as much a cheater as she was.


I agree.


----------



## Graywolf2

White Rose said:


> He seems to really like this girl and fell for me within 6 months and seems totally smitten by her despite saying they have nothing in common really. I don't know, he was so confused.


It’s very simple. Chris found a woman who prefers him as her #1 sex partner. Why wouldn’t he like that? How many years was he #2? He should at least get the same amount of time enjoying being #1.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Graywolf2 said:


> It’s very simple. Chris found a woman who prefers him as her #1 sex partner. Why wouldn’t he like that? How many years was he #2? He should at least get the same amount of time enjoying being #1.


Not at the expense of his integrity.


----------



## MattMatt

carmen ohio said:


> If I'm reading their posts correctly, some people here are saying that it's OK for Chris989 to cheat on White Rose because she first cheated on him. I find this disturbing.
> 
> One of most commonly expressed views on TAM/CWI is that there is no excuse for cheating. There are a number of justifications for this position, including that it is required in order to preserve the sanctity (or, for the non-religious, the integrity) of marriage and because, however bad a marriage may be, the would-be cheater always has the chance to leave it honorably before entering into an emotionally and/or physically intimate relationship with someone else.
> 
> Another justification for the position, and the one that I find the most compelling, is that, once one accepts any excuse for cheating, one opens the door to any number of excuses (he ignored me, she didn't understand me, we had no sex life, etc.) such that it becomes difficult if not impossible to condemn any example of cheating, as the wayward can always offer an excuse that the betrayed cannot refute.
> 
> I understand that people sympathize with Chris989 as a betrayed spouse, but that does not require them to excuse his cheating. We can still support people while we call them out for their bad behavior. In fact, truly supporting people requires us to point out their faults in order that they have an opportunity and the incentive to fix themselves and thereby improve theirs and their families' lives.
> 
> Given that Chris989 is married to White Rose, he should end his adulterous relationship. Until he does so, he is every bit as much a cheater as she was. Based on his comments, I believe he understands and accepts this. I wish everybody here did too.
> 
> My apologies for making two _'preachy'_ posts in one thread but I feel strongly about both issues.


Odd though it might seem, I did have a RA and I am one of those who, though I can understand where Chris' RA came from, I am not saying it was/is the right thing to do.

Because I understand how wrong my RA was.


----------



## G.J.

Blossom Leigh said:


> Not at the expense of his integrity.


Didn't Chris tell WS and not indulge in subterfuge ?


----------



## Graywolf2

Blossom Leigh said:


> Not at the expense of his integrity.


Why is the BS held to a higher standard than the WS? Is the faithful spouse a superior form of human? Why would someone with so much integrity want to be with someone that has so littile. 

We are encouraged to forgive the WS. Why can’t the BS make “mistakes” and be forgiven? If the WS is "only human" then so is the BS.

Marriage is a moral commitment. The only thing that is clearly black and white in the marriage ceremony is not having sex with other people. 

It makes a huge difference who breaks the contract first. The WS redefines the agreement unilaterally. They have made it an open marriage and didn’t tell their spouse. Once a contract has been broken it doesn’t automatically remain in force. It has to be re-negotiated.



G.J. said:


> Didn't Chris tell WS and not indulge in subterfuge ?


:iagree:

Many times it not the affair that ends a marriage, it’s the lying.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Each persons choices and the integrity attached to those choices is mutually exclusive of the other persons choices. I am responsible for my choices and my H is responsible for his choices. There is no overlap.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> B*y Greywolf*
> Why is the BS held to a higher standard than the WS? Is the faithful spouse a superior form of human? Why would someone with so much integrity want to be with someone that has so littile.
> 
> We are encouraged to forgive the WS. Why can’t the BS make “mistakes” and be forgiven? If the WS is "only human" then so is the BS



If Chris and WR want to have a chance at R then they need to take the high road in integrity and morality. In fact if they want to get better with their own self-esteem then taking the high road will help and taking the revenge or the feel good road will harm.


----------



## Graywolf2

Mr Blunt said:


> If Chris and WR want to have a chance at R then they need to take the high road in integrity and morality. In fact if they want to get better with their own self-esteem then taking the high road will help and taking the revenge or the feel good road will harm.


:iagree:

I agree, but does Chris want to R? People were calling Chris a bad guy. I don’t think he’s that bad.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

The choices were bad, not the person.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: I cheated*



Blossom Leigh said:


> The choices were bad, not the person.


At least he was open and honest about it. In my mind it's the deception, gaslighting and lying that make any infidelity much much worse.


----------



## Graywolf2

Blossom Leigh said:


> The choices were bad.


The choices were bad if Chris wanted to R. If he wants to move on with his life they may be the best thing for* him*.


----------



## G.J.

Blossom Leigh said:


> The choices were bad, not the person.


neglect of the children was a bad choice and not done by a bad person?

I may not be remembering Chris's thread right but didn't WS neglect the children at some point...correct me if I'm wrong


----------



## convert

bfree said:


> At least he was open and honest about it. In my mind it's the deception, gaslighting and lying that make any infidelity much much worse.


agreed

and don't forget Trickle Truthing, Denying, having to snoop/spy to find the truth [email protected]


----------



## MattMatt

Graywolf2 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I agree, but does Chris want to R? People were calling Chris a bad guy. I don’t think he’s that bad.


Neither of them are bad. 

Even good people can do bad things, sometimes.


----------



## vellocet

Graywolf2 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I agree, but does Chris want to R? People were calling Chris a bad guy. I don’t think he’s that bad.


Or someone coming to the defense of WR, but being appalled when someone came to the defense of Chris


----------



## Blossom Leigh

My personal philosophy is I separate behavioral choices from care of the person and respond accordingly. Works for me. 

Unless the person is pathologically disordered,I remain engaged up to the point they demonstrate lack of willingness. Otherwise I separate myself from pathologically irrational persons.

I do two tests...

Capacity

Willingness


----------



## G.J.

MattMatt said:


> Neither of them are bad.
> 
> Even good people can do bad things, sometimes.


yep that's why we have courts

In some countries adultery is a stoneable offence, not for a minute going along with that, just that the populace decides in a lot of cases what is and isn't acceptable


----------



## vellocet

MattMatt said:


> Neither of them are bad.
> 
> Even good people can do bad things, sometimes.


Key word, "sometimes". Like Martha Stewart and the insider trading.


----------



## convert

Blossom Leigh said:


> My personal philosophy is I separate behavioral choices from care of the person and respond accordingly. Works for me.
> 
> Unless the person is pathologically disordered,I remain engaged up to the point they demonstrate lack of willingness. Otherwise I separate myself from pathologically irrational persons.
> 
> I do two tests...
> 
> Capacity
> 
> Willingness


Well that makes sense

and separating myself from pathologically irrational persons would be great but i don't think i would have any family left


----------



## Suspecting2014

Mr Blunt said:


> B*y Greywolf*
> Why is the BS held to a higher standard than the WS? Is the faithful spouse a superior form of human? Why would someone with so much integrity want to be with someone that has so littile.
> 
> We are encouraged to forgive the WS. Why canât the BS make âmistakesâ and be forgiven? If the WS is "only human" then so is the BS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If Chris and WR want to have a chance at R then they need to take the high road in integrity and morality. In fact if they want to get better with their own self-esteem then taking the high road will help and taking the revenge or the feel good road will harm.
Click to expand...

At this moment Chris is trying to decide if keep R or leave.

They R has been with Chris effort and WR paralized by guilt. From this scenario IMO was very unsatisfactory for Chris so he walk away.


----------



## G.J.

convert said:


> Well that makes sense
> 
> and separating myself from pathologically irrational persons would be great but i don't think i would have any family left


Now that s funny :rofl:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

convert said:


> Well that makes sense
> 
> and separating myself from pathologically irrational persons would be great but i don't think i would have any family left


I know what you mean!!! :rofl:


----------



## Suspecting2014

I don't think is a RA bc Chris came clean after the first contact and them walk away.

IMO cheateing lives un dark, hidden from the other S. In this case begun as and unplaned A and evolve to a WAH.

He as other WAS is trying to figure out what he wants at this moment. OW is not the motive to walk away, she is the catalizaer that open Chis eyes to a whole new reality of possibles healthy relations, maybe not with current OW but a fresh start with a new GF.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Chris as been sincere from the begining, even after the first contact he came clean


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Any affair born out of resentment and anger is a revenge affair regardless of a previous affair by the other partner imo

The resentment and anger can be real or imagined.

Once the leverage is built.. the affair is revenge.


----------



## Graywolf2

Blossom Leigh said:


> Any affair born out of resentment and anger is a revenge affair regardless of a previous affair by the other partner imo
> 
> The resentment and anger can be real or imagined.
> 
> Once the leverage is built.. the affair is revenge.


How about this situation: You were in an unhappy marriage and were tempted to see other people. You never did because of the sacred bonds of marriage. 

Then your spouse breaks the bonds. Isn’t it possible to finally date the person you always wanted to without resentment or anger just because the consecrated bonds are now gone?

Maybe when the bonds were broken you felt relief and liberation.

*EDIT: My question in context is would you consider this scenario a revenge affair?*


----------



## ThePheonix

Graywolf2 said:


> Then your spouse breaks the bonds. Isn’t it possible to finally date the person you always wanted to without resentment or anger just because the consecrated bonds are now gone?


Depends on one's point of view. My point of view is similar to yours and consistent with contract law. (viz., when a contract is breached, the aggrieved party is generally relieved from all obligations not yet performed.) 
Some will argue that a marriage contract has far greater standards than a typical contract between two parties and the aggrieved party have the same obligations until the contract is legally terminated (divorce).


----------



## wmn1

I agree with Vellocet in #359 and disagree with Carmen in #355.

Noone or at least the vast majority aren't condoning Chris' affair. And it is that, an affair.

Where my objections are is in the equating of what WR did compared to Chris.

To some, it isn't just the affair, it's the number of times, with who and what circumstances and how. 

Further, and I may be one of the few here, but if someone is going to cheat, of course in many circumstances, they are going to lie about it. I almsot expect that as bad as the lying is.

To me, it's the affair that is worse than the lying. The affair is the hot dog. The lying is the bun.


----------



## ThePheonix

wmn1 said:


> The affair is the hot dog. The lying is the bun.


I'm not going to ask how you came up with that metaphor.


----------



## Graywolf2

ThePheonix said:


> I'm not going to ask how you came up with that metaphor.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Graywolf2 said:


> How about this situation: You were in an unhappy marriage and were tempted to see other people. You never did because of the sacred bonds of marriage.
> 
> Then your spouse breaks the bonds. Isn’t it possible to finally date the person you always wanted to without resentment or anger just because the consecrated bonds are now gone?
> 
> Maybe when the bonds were broken you felt relief and liberation.


I keep my standards regardless of what my spouse does. That's what I work towards. Do I always hit that mark, no, but I also focus on not using my spouse as an excuse to drop below my personal standard for myself. That's just me.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Blossom Leigh said:


> Any affair born out of resentment and anger is a revenge affair regardless of a previous affair by the other partner imo
> 
> The resentment and anger can be real or imagined.
> 
> Once the leverage is built.. the affair is revenge.


Maybe his affair was a RA, but now is over as he came clean and walk away.
I believe an A ends when comes out, no matter the afthermath
Am I wrong?


----------



## carmen ohio

vellocet said:


> Key word, "sometimes". Like Martha Stewart and the insider trading.


Just to set the record straight, Martha Stewart was not convicted of insider trading or any other violation of federal or state securities laws. Rather, after throwing out the securities fraud charges against her, the federal judge allowed the case to proceed on the basis of what even the judge acknowledged to be a _'novel'_ obstruction of justice theory (in law, a novel theory is one that has no basis in established law -- i.e., involving conduct that has never before been held to be illegal).

Many in the U.S. legal community at the time considered that Ms. Stewart was the victim of an unscrupulous and over-zealous federal prosecutor, who concocted the obstruction charge because he realized he had no securities violation case against her and who took advantage of the fact that Ms. Stewart was widely resented for her prim and proper image (sometimes, it's the rich and powerful who get railroaded).

What Ms. Stewart was _'guilty'_ of was the mistake of cooperating with the prosecutors office when the investigation began. Had she asserted her 5th Amendment rights from the beginning and refused to answer any of their questions about the stock sale that precipitated the investigation, it is highly doubtful that she could have been convicted of anything.

To all my friends on TAM, the larger lesson here is that, if you are ever accused of a crime, you are better off saying nothing than trying to exculpate yourself, even if you are perfectly innocent. Like they say on _"Cops,"_ anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. So, better to say nothing.


P.S.: Sorry for the T/J but the Martha Stewart case is one of my favorites.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Suspecting2014 said:


> Maybe his affair was a RA, but now is over as he came clean and walk away.
> I believe an A ends when comes out, no matter the afthermath
> Am I wrong?


By definition, yes you are wrong

An affair is having relations outside of marriage.

Exposure no longer ends the fact that it was an affair. It was relations outside of marriage, therefore an affair.


----------



## Squeakr

Blossom Leigh said:


> By definition, yes you are wrong
> 
> An affair is having relations outside of marriage.
> 
> Exposure no longer ends the fact that it was an affair. It was relations outside of marriage, therefore an affair.


:iagree::iagree::iagree: It just means the parties all know the truth that you have been lying, sneaking, covering up, and cheating. If you still are doing the actions and carrying on then you are cheating and having an A, unless you and you spouse agree that your actions are acceptable and you agree to an open marriage, but that rarely happens (and then when it does, rarely does it turn out well).


----------



## As'laDain

in the end, the points of view dont change anything. White Rose is still sitting at home wishing they were together while her husband is going out and having sex with another woman. 

does she deserve it? maybe, she did do the same thing to him after all. but it still doesnt negate the cruelty of it. he knows exactly how much he is hurting her through this. if you take away her infidelity, you would be wildly incensed at what he is doing. basically flaunting an affair in her face while asking her to sit by and take it. 

maybe he is done. but, dont a lot of wayward spouses say that when they start an affair? does it make it ok when they straight up say, "im going to go have sex with my affair partner, whether you like it or not"? i mean, there is no deception right?

it wouldnt be ok unless you have a reason to want to punish someone. well, WR is feeling that punishment. right now, she is going through the same kind of pain that chris went through. 

isn't that what we often wish on all unrepentant wayward spouses?

i find it incredibly odd that we hear that so often. that we would wish that kind of pain on someone. 

the difference between empathy and sympathy is understanding. empathy is feeling what someone else is going through. its easy to have empathy for someone who has a cold. we have all been there. sympathy, on the other hand, is knowing that someone is going through something painful, but not really knowing what it feels like because we have never experienced it ourselves. 

i have to think that the only reason why chris would stoop to having an affair is because he lost hope that he will ever be able to BE who he wants. after being through so much, the anger was still there. why try when you know its not going to work?
i also believe that he didnt know how to get rid of it and be happy. otherwise, he would have. does that make his actions forgivable?

if not, then her actions are not forgivable either and they are both condemned. but if they are, that makes me wonder why WR cheated to begin with. 

did she have some deep seated insecurity that allowed her to cheat? or a belief that she could never be good enough to be worthy of love, so she sought out whoever would tell her that she was worth loving, even if it wasnt her husband? if so, would it be forgivable? 

i believe anyone could cheat unless they are actively employing efforts to NOT cheat. i could cheat. so i do things to make sure i dont. my wife, akinaura, could cheat. so she does things to make sure she doesn't. 

in the end, looking at it this way is the only reason we dont cheat on each other. and because my wife was remorseful and willing to focus on learning how to avoid cheating through mutually fulfilling each others needs, mine and her own, and accepting that she could cheat in order to stay vigilant against it, i could forgive her. 

neither of them were in the right when they decided to do something destructive in the marriage, but forgiveness is useless to someone who doesnt care about it. i dont know if chris cares. if he is done, he is done. but if i am to forgive his actions, i would have to forgive WR's too.

because i forgave my wife.


----------



## toolforgrowth

To me, a marriage is a contract. Once a spouse steps outside the marriage and commits adultery, the contract is null and void. WR committed adultery first in both of their marriages, thereby nullifying them. Chris is free to do as he pleases. 

Of course, anyone is free to disagree with me. I don't take it personally if you do. Different strokes for different folks, and all that. 

I read this entire thread. WR, I don't think there's anything you can do to stop him. If you really want him back, let him go and be the best WR that you can be. Words are empty air and have no value; it's actions that people pay attention to. Show him through your actions how much you really love him and that you can commit to him. That may involve waiting while he does his thing.

And I personally don't think you have a leg to stand on to cry foul at his behavior... You certainly don't have to like it, and I completely understand why it's painful for you. But giving him his space and working on you is the only shot you have...and after everything he's been through, it's a slim one. 

I'm very happy that you're going to IC and coming here, though. Don't stop.  You may not get the outcome you want (Chris back), but a better, healthier you is always going to be a good thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

toolforgrowth said:


> To me, a marriage is a contract. Once a spouse steps outside the marriage and commits adultery, the contract is null and void. WR committed adultery first in both of their marriages, thereby nullifying them. Chris is free to do as he pleases.
> 
> Of course, anyone is free to disagree with me. I don't take it personally if you do. Different strokes for different folks, and all that.
> 
> I read this entire thread. WR, I don't think there's anything you can do to stop him. If you really want him back, let him go and be the best WR that you can be. Words are empty air and have no value; it's actions that people pay attention to. Show him through your actions how much you really love him and that you can commit to him. That may involve waiting while he does his thing.
> 
> And I personally don't think you have a leg to stand on to cry foul at his behavior... You certainly don't have to like it, and I completely understand why it's painful for you. But giving him his space and working on you is the only shot you have...and after everything he's been through, it's a slim one.
> 
> I'm very happy that you're going to IC and coming here, though. Don't stop.  You may not get the outcome you want (Chris back), but a better, healthier you is always going to be a good thing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


However, how about the fact that Chris filed for and was granted a divorce? Then decided to remarry his wife and thus created a new marital contract?


----------



## toolforgrowth

MattMatt said:


> However, how about the fact that Chris filed for and was granted a divorce? Then decided to remarry his wife and thus created a new marital contract?


I believe WR also committed adultery first in the new marriage as well? That's how I read it, although I could be wrong.. ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wmn1

i believe anyone could cheat unless they are actively employing efforts to NOT cheat. i could cheat. so i do things to make sure i dont. my wife, akinaura, could cheat. so she does things to make sure she doesn't.



I agree with As'ladain's statement above


----------



## Squeakr

toolforgrowth said:


> I believe WR also committed adultery first in the new marriage as well? That's how I read it, although I could be wrong.. ?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This was unclear to me as well, as it sounded like it could be this, and then another read it sounded like it was an A, R occurred, then another A with the same guy, then D, then remarriage, and then Chris's A. They would need to clarify this. As I believe MM is under this same impression as I read it (he may be more in tune with Chris's story as I am not).


----------



## Suspecting2014

toolforgrowth said:


> To me, a marriage is a contract. Once a spouse steps outside the marriage and commits adultery, the contract is null and void. WR committed adultery first in both of their marriages, thereby nullifying them. Chris is free to do as he pleases.
> 
> Of course, anyone is free to disagree with me. I don't take it personally if you do. Different strokes for different folks, and all that.
> 
> I read this entire thread. WR, I don't think there's anything you can do to stop him. If you really want him back, let him go and be the best WR that you can be. Words are empty air and have no value; it's actions that people pay attention to. Show him through your actions how much you really love him and that you can commit to him. That may involve waiting while he does his thing.
> 
> And I personally don't think you have a leg to stand on to cry foul at his behavior... You certainly don't have to like it, and I completely understand why it's painful for you. But giving him his space and working on you is the only shot you have...and after everything he's been through, it's a slim one.
> 
> I'm very happy that you're going to IC and coming here, though. Don't stop.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You may not get the outcome you want (Chris back), but a better, healthier you is always going to be a good thing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Totally agree, the contract vÃƒÂ*a broken when a missbehave take place, not when a paper says so.

When someone is seeing other person out the marriage but is honest about it, IMO is not any more an affair, as it is not hiden, but it is adulteryadultery.

Main factor of an affair is lying.


----------



## 2ntnuf

As'laDain said:


> in the end, the points of view dont change anything. White Rose is still sitting at home wishing they were together while her husband is going out and having sex with another woman.
> 
> does she deserve it? maybe, she did do the same thing to him after all. but it still doesnt negate the cruelty of it. he knows exactly how much he is hurting her through this. if you take away her infidelity, you would be wildly incensed at what he is doing. basically flaunting an affair in her face while asking her to sit by and take it.
> 
> maybe he is done. but, dont a lot of wayward spouses say that when they start an affair? does it make it ok when they straight up say, "im going to go have sex with my affair partner, whether you like it or not"? i mean, there is no deception right?
> 
> it wouldnt be ok unless you have a reason to want to punish someone. well, WR is feeling that punishment. right now, she is going through the same kind of pain that chris went through.
> 
> isn't that what we often wish on all unrepentant wayward spouses?
> 
> i find it incredibly odd that we hear that so often. that we would wish that kind of pain on someone.
> 
> the difference between empathy and sympathy is understanding. empathy is feeling what someone else is going through. its easy to have empathy for someone who has a cold. we have all been there. sympathy, on the other hand, is knowing that someone is going through something painful, but not really knowing what it feels like because we have never experienced it ourselves.
> 
> i have to think that the only reason why chris would stoop to having an affair is because he lost hope that he will ever be able to BE who he wants. after being through so much, the anger was still there. why try when you know its not going to work?
> i also believe that he didnt know how to get rid of it and be happy. otherwise, he would have. does that make his actions forgivable?
> 
> if not, then her actions are not forgivable either and they are both condemned. but if they are, that makes me wonder why WR cheated to begin with.
> 
> did she have some deep seated insecurity that allowed her to cheat? or a belief that she could never be good enough to be worthy of love, so she sought out whoever would tell her that she was worth loving, even if it wasnt her husband? if so, would it be forgivable?
> 
> i believe anyone could cheat unless they are actively employing efforts to NOT cheat. i could cheat. so i do things to make sure i dont. my wife, akinaura, could cheat. so she does things to make sure she doesn't.
> 
> in the end, looking at it this way is the only reason we dont cheat on each other. and because my wife was remorseful and willing to focus on learning how to avoid cheating through mutually fulfilling each others needs, mine and her own, and accepting that she could cheat in order to stay vigilant against it, i could forgive her.
> 
> neither of them were in the right when they decided to do something destructive in the marriage, but forgiveness is useless to someone who doesnt care about it. i dont know if chris cares. if he is done, he is done. but if i am to forgive his actions, i would have to forgive WR's too.
> 
> because i forgave my wife.


No spouse deserves to be cheated on. Cheating is a decision. It's not forced on another. Were there reasons she felt crappy about herself? I bet. That doesn't excuse the cheating.

Were there reasons Chris felt crappy enough to cheat? Sure. Cheating is a decision. It's not forced on another. And all the rest I wrote above.

Do she and he both deserve forgiveness? From who? Do you mean some higher power? Do you mean from the public? Do you mean from each other? 

We are not a higher power. Condemn? What do you mean by that? Do you mean send them to hell? We can't. Do you mean sentence them to capital punishment or long term incarceration? We don't have that authority nor did they commit a crime. I don't understand this line of thinking and I read it all the time. I think there is a disconnect in the understanding of what is expected when someone forgives.

Forgiveness doesn't mean someone takes their spouse back. It just means they no longer feel angry or resentful. They don't have to like or respect the person they forgive. It doesn't mean they are friends after they have forgiven. 

Oh, and I'm not picking on you. I just think this is really important for many here, including WR and Chris. 

Infidelity is wrong no matter the WS reasons. The reasons, in reality, are only reasons they feel crappy and want to make some changes in their lives. What those changes are will be up to each. There are changes that end the crap they are going through and help them grow and improve their lives, then there is infidelity. 

Sorry for the long post. Such odd stuff I read. So you will blame your spouse if you ever fail to stop yourself from avoiding the temptation to cheat? See what I mean? It isn't your wife's fault, even if she would be a crappy wife. No offense to you or your wife, As. It's just using your example to explain my points.

In the end, WR needs to forgive herself for whatever she feels crappy about doing and accept that she convinced herself to do it. Then, she needs to take steps to avoid the temptation in the future and heal herself of whatever those issues were. If the issues were something she could not control, as in, Chris did this or that, or didn't do this or that and won't, then she has to count herself lucky and build a better life by changing anything that is messed up with her. What a run-on sentence. I hope that makes some sense. 

ETA: Yes, they both deserve forgiveness. That doesn't mean they get back together or don't. That's a separate matter.


----------



## toolforgrowth

wmn1 said:


> i believe anyone could cheat unless they are actively employing efforts to NOT cheat. i could cheat. so i do things to make sure i dont. my wife, akinaura, could cheat. so she does things to make sure she doesn't.
> 
> I agree with As'ladain's statement above


As do I. It's taking the steps that matter. I took steps with my xWW to ensure there would be no cheating. She didn't. So I divorced her. When I met my rebound, papers had been filed, xWW was actively banging OM, and R was forever off the table for me, yet I was still technically married. Does that count as creating? Or an RA? The marriage was dead, she stepped out first, so I said why not have some fun? God knows my xWW hasn't given me good sex in years at that point, and I had nothing else to lose. 

Bottom line, I took those steps. She didn't. She lost any privilege of my fidelity to her the moment she spread her legs for OM. Again, that's just me...I'm not coming down on anyone who disagrees with me. I just have an alternative perspective...not better or worse, just different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Squeakr

toolforgrowth said:


> As do I. It's taking the steps that matter. I took steps with my xWW to ensure there would be no cheating. She didn't. So I divorced her. When I met my rebound, papers had been filed, xWW was actively banging OM, and R was forever off the table for me, yet I was still technically married. Does that count as creating? Or an RA? The marriage was dead, she stepped out first, so I said why not have some fun? God knows my xWW hasn't given me good sex in years at that point, and I had nothing else to lose.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Since papers were filed and your were officially separated it wasn't technically cheating or an RA, but it definitely could be considered Adultery. This depends on the laws of your state (as technically dating is supposed to be allowed during separation, but sex is not, although very few states enforce or prosecute this). Of course your situation is different in that you went through the correct legal channels prior to acting on your urges, so most would consider your actions honorable in that respect.


----------



## toolforgrowth

Squeakr said:


> Since papers were filed and your were officially separated it wasn't technically cheating or an RA, but it definitely could be considered Adultery. This depends on the laws of your state (as technically dating is supposed to be allowed during separation, but sex is not, although very few states enforce or prosecute this). Of course your situation is different in that you went through the correct legal channels prior to acting on your urges, so most would consider your actions honorable in that respect.


No fault state. Her A was completely irrelevant. 

That's kinda how I felt about it, too. The M was dead, R was not an option for me, and we were separated. Even though it's still technically adultery, I felt no guilt or regret about it, though. And I found it funny how she suddenly wanted to play nice once the tables were turned. 

I hope WR really wants Chris for Chris, not just because someone else wants him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Squeakr

toolforgrowth said:


> No fault state. Her A was completely irrelevant.
> 
> That's kinda how I felt about it, too. The M was dead, R was not an option for me, and we were separated. Even though it's still technically adultery, I felt no guilt or regret about it, though. And I found it funny how she suddenly wanted to play nice once the tables were turned.
> 
> I hope WR really wants Chris for Chris, not just because someone else wants him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Even in a no fault state the A is only irrelevant for D cases. As far as it being Adultery (if the state decides to prosecute it), then that is something different and unrelated to the D, so it is somewhat relevant. I am not saying I agree on the Adultery, but I don't see it as cheating what you did, as you were separated and in the midst of D.


----------



## As'laDain

2ntnuf said:


> No spouse deserves to be cheated on. Cheating is a decision. It's not forced on another. Were there reasons she felt crappy about herself? I bet. That doesn't excuse the cheating.
> 
> Were there reasons Chris felt crappy enough to cheat? Sure. Cheating is a decision. It's not forced on another. And all the rest I wrote above.
> 
> Do she and he both deserve forgiveness? From who? Do you mean some higher power? Do you mean from the public? Do you mean from each other?
> 
> We are not a higher power. Condemn? What do you mean by that? Do you mean send them to hell? We can't. Do you mean sentence them to capital punishment or long term incarceration? We don't have that authority nor did they commit a crime. I don't understand this line of thinking and I read it all the time. I think there is a disconnect in the understanding of what is expected when someone forgives.
> 
> Forgiveness doesn't mean someone takes their spouse back. It just means they no longer feel angry or resentful. They don't have to like or respect the person they forgive. It doesn't mean they are friends after they have forgiven.
> 
> Oh, and I'm not picking on you. I just think this is really important for many here, including WR and Chris.
> 
> Infidelity is wrong no matter the WS reasons. The reasons, in reality, are only reasons they feel crappy and want to make some changes in their lives. What those changes are will be up to each. There are changes that end the crap they are going through and help them grow and improve their lives, then there is infidelity.
> 
> Sorry for the long post. Such odd stuff I read. So you will blame your spouse if you ever fail to stop yourself from avoiding the temptation to cheat? See what I mean? It isn't your wife's fault, even if she would be a crappy wife. No offense to you or your wife, As. It's just using your example to explain my points.
> 
> In the end, WR needs to forgive herself for whatever she feels crappy about doing and accept that she convinced herself to do it. Then, she needs to take steps to avoid the temptation in the future and heal herself of whatever those issues were. If the issues were something she could not control, as in, Chris did this or that, or didn't do this or that and won't, then she has to count herself lucky and build a better life by changing anything that is messed up with her. What a run-on sentence. I hope that makes some sense.
> 
> ETA: Yes, they both deserve forgiveness. That doesn't mean they get back together or don't. That's a separate matter.


i often say things and ask questions because the answer is clear if you really think about it... 

you prove my point. 

i dont actually think they need to reconcile. but they do need to forgive each other. but of course, if chris feels justified, WR forgiveness of him makes no difference...
at least for him. it would make a difference to her.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Blossom Leigh said:


> I keep my standards regardless of why my spouse does. That's what I work towards. Do I always hit that mark, no, but I also focus on not using my spouse as an excuse to drop below my personal standard for myself. That's just me.


Me too. Personal accountibility. Right, wrong, or indifferent, justified or rationalized, he is accountable for his actions. As are we all.


----------



## 2ntnuf

As'laDain said:


> i often say things and ask questions because the answer is clear if you really think about it...
> 
> you prove my point.
> 
> i dont actually think they need to reconcile. but they do need to forgive each other. but of course, if chris feels justified, WR forgiveness of him makes no difference...
> at least for him. it would make a difference to her.


I just don't want her to rely on his forgiveness for her to move forward and heal. She only needs to forgive herself. She may or may not get it from him. In the end, it doesn't matter. She has to get stronger. She doesn't need to rely on him for that to happen. That's not fair to her. It might hold her back and there's no need for it.


----------



## MattMatt

toolforgrowth said:


> I believe WR also committed adultery first in the new marriage as well? That's how I read it, although I could be wrong.. ?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you have read that wrong.

No adultery by White Rose in here new marriage.


----------



## toolforgrowth

MattMatt said:


> I think you have read that wrong.
> 
> No adultery by White Rose in here new marriage.


If that's the case, then that does indeed change things. I can't fault Chris for wanting out if he feels WR didn't do enough in R, but now this has the stench of an exit affair...if she indeed didn't cheat during their remarriage. 

What confused me is the statement that she cheated on him twice in 2.5 years. I assumed the second time was during the remarriage, which was the catalyst for Chris leaving now. Clarification from WR would be helpful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

toolforgrowth said:


> If that's the case, then that does indeed change things. I can't fault Chris for wanting out if he feels WR didn't do enough in R, but now this has the stench of an exit affair...if she indeed didn't cheat during their remarriage.
> 
> What confused me is the statement that she cheated on him twice in 2.5 years. I assumed the second time was during the remarriage, which was the catalyst for Chris leaving now. Clarification from WR would be helpful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I did not cheat after we got remarried, it was supposed to be a new start. What happened was that the affair ended and I told Chris that I had been in love with someone. the next day it was back on again and that is how it happens to be twice. Chris' affair was an exit affair, he got close to another woman also a couple of months before this one but nothing happened there. I was only talking with him about it today. He started to let himself get into situations with women he would never have done. I think he was looking for reassurance he was attractive. He has always been a bit thick in that department and has had at least 2 colleagues in the past tell him they love him but he has always told me about it.


----------



## ConanHub

I would like to point out WR that him being "thick" about believing himself to be unattractive was absolutely verified by you cheating on him.

You very much helped him to believe he was undesirable by doing the worst possible thing you could with who you did it with. How would you feel if Chris destroyed his marriage by cheating on you with an absolute slvt that had six kids with six men?

Good for your self esteem?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> in the end, the points of view dont change anything. White Rose is still sitting at home wishing they were together while her husband is going out and having sex with another woman.
> 
> does she deserve it? maybe, she did do the same thing to him after all. but it still doesnt negate the cruelty of it. he knows exactly how much he is hurting her through this. if you take away her infidelity, you would be wildly incensed at what he is doing. basically flaunting an affair in her face while asking her to sit by and take it.
> 
> maybe he is done. but, dont a lot of wayward spouses say that when they start an affair? does it make it ok when they straight up say, "im going to go have sex with my affair partner, whether you like it or not"? i mean, there is no deception right?
> 
> it wouldnt be ok unless you have a reason to want to punish someone. well, WR is feeling that punishment. right now, she is going through the same kind of pain that chris went through.
> 
> isn't that what we often wish on all unrepentant wayward spouses?
> 
> i find it incredibly odd that we hear that so often. that we would wish that kind of pain on someone.
> 
> the difference between empathy and sympathy is understanding. empathy is feeling what someone else is going through. its easy to have empathy for someone who has a cold. we have all been there. sympathy, on the other hand, is knowing that someone is going through something painful, but not really knowing what it feels like because we have never experienced it ourselves.
> 
> i have to think that the only reason why chris would stoop to having an affair is because he lost hope that he will ever be able to BE who he wants. after being through so much, the anger was still there. why try when you know its not going to work?
> i also believe that he didnt know how to get rid of it and be happy. otherwise, he would have. does that make his actions forgivable?
> 
> if not, then her actions are not forgivable either and they are both condemned. but if they are, that makes me wonder why WR cheated to begin with.
> 
> did she have some deep seated insecurity that allowed her to cheat? or a belief that she could never be good enough to be worthy of love, so she sought out whoever would tell her that she was worth loving, even if it wasnt her husband? if so, would it be forgivable?
> 
> i believe anyone could cheat unless they are actively employing efforts to NOT cheat. i could cheat. so i do things to make sure i dont. my wife, akinaura, could cheat. so she does things to make sure she doesn't.
> 
> in the end, looking at it this way is the only reason we dont cheat on each other. and because my wife was remorseful and willing to focus on learning how to avoid cheating through mutually fulfilling each others needs, mine and her own, and accepting that she could cheat in order to stay vigilant against it, i could forgive her.
> 
> neither of them were in the right when they decided to do something destructive in the marriage, but forgiveness is useless to someone who doesnt care about it. i dont know if chris cares. if he is done, he is done. but if i am to forgive his actions, i would have to forgive WR's too.
> 
> because i forgave my wife.


I really want to find out why I cheated, I want to look at why I treated him badly before that as well, I think I uncovered some really deep stuff after counseling and a sleepless night last night. I want to look at why I chose the OM despite him being a loser and at whether I loved Chris at all.


----------



## ThePheonix

MattMatt said:


> However, how about the fact that Chris filed for and was granted a divorce? Then decided to remarry his wife and thus created a new marital contract?


Good point counselor. I agree that "buyer's remorse" is not a defense for breaking a contract.


----------



## G.J.

White Rose said:


> I really want to find out why I cheated, I want to look at why I treated him badly before that as well, I think I uncovered some really deep stuff after counseling and a sleepless night last night. I want to look at why I chose the OM despite him being a loser and at whether I loved Chris at all.


I always understood the reason was fairly basic as Chris stated you had a curiosity for men of colour I think was the way he phrased it ?

Which to me meant initially just 'lust with a black guy?'
But later became a full blown love interest
Some times the simple answers are correct


----------



## ThePheonix

White Rose said:


> I want to look at why I chose the OM despite him being a loser and at whether I loved Chris at all.


I don't know what about him makes him a loser. He very well may be but you're like a lot of women my girl, you went for the bad boy who was a challenge. Of course you didn't love Chris. At least not in a romantic way. If you did you wouldn't have been taking a bite of the apple with Mr. Wonderful.


----------



## Wolfman1968

ConanHub said:


> I would like to point out WR that him being "thick" about believing himself to be unattractive was absolutely verified by you cheating on him.
> 
> You very much helped him to believe he was undesirable by doing the worst possible thing you could with who you did it with. How would you feel if Chris destroyed his marriage by cheating on you with an absolute slvt that had six kids with six men?
> 
> Good for your self esteem?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think this says it all. 

Chris has no reason to feel he has any sexual/attractive value based on White Rose's treatment of him. Even after the false reconciliation/remarriage, she admits she was "lazy" and wouldn't do things he asked to make him feel valued. (I say false reconciliation because her admitted half-hearted effort leads me to believe she wasn't as remorseful as she believes herself to be and also that she really doesn't have a passionate complete sexual desire for Chris--else she would make the effort without being asked.)

His exit affiar may well be a way of trying to feel that he has some value.


----------



## Wolfman1968

White Rose said:


> I really want to find out why I cheated, I want to look at why I treated him badly before that as well, I think I uncovered some really deep stuff after counseling and a sleepless night last night. I want to look at why I chose the OM despite him being a loser and at whether I loved Chris at all.


From the postings, I think it is clear. You apparently have a fetish for black guys, and Chris just doesn't stir your passions like the OM did. That would explain why, as you and Chris admit, you only made a half-hearted effort at the remarriage ("lazy" is the word I think you used to describe it yourself). Chris isn't the one that fires your passionate desires. You may love his reliability or kindness, but apparently not sexually, or else he wouldn't have to ask you to do things for him (which both of you admit you didn't do consistently or spontaneously). I don't think it's a mystery at all.

Do you really think that Chris would be able to continue in such a situation? To know that he would always be #2 in your desires?


----------



## ThePheonix

Wolfman1968 said:


> Chris has no reason to feel he has any sexual/attractive value based on White Rose's treatment of him.


One thing you learn in life. One woman's reject is several other women's treasure. Same with men. A lot of folks seem ignorant of this fact, keep pursuing a lost cause, and keep having their azzes handed to um.


----------



## G.J.

Arh be still my lonesome heart


----------



## As'laDain

2ntnuf said:


> I just don't want her to rely on his forgiveness for her to move forward and heal. She only needs to forgive herself. She may or may not get it from him. In the end, it doesn't matter. She has to get stronger. She doesn't need to rely on him for that to happen. That's not fair to her. It might hold her back and there's no need for it.


she shouldnt have to rely on his forgiveness, i agree. 

but if she can find it in herself to forgive him, because he obviously had his reasons, than she can find it in herself to forgive herself. she just needs to find out why she did it first. then forgive herself and move on.


----------



## As'laDain

White Rose said:


> I really want to find out why I cheated, I want to look at why I treated him badly before that as well, I think I uncovered some really deep stuff after counseling and a sleepless night last night. I want to look at why I chose the OM despite him being a loser and at whether I loved Chris at all.


what did you uncover after counseling?


----------



## seasalt

It's just my opinion but I think the current situation could have been avoided or at least have a happier possibility if Chris989 would have parted company with his wife when their divorce was finalized. I know that I and others questioned him about remaining in the home with her.

If he had been apart from her he could have better evaluated his feelings for and about her without her physical presence complicating or confusing or dulling them.

Just sayin',

Seasalt


----------



## As'laDain

seasalt said:


> It's just my opinion but I think the current situation could have been avoided or at least have a happier possibility if Chris989 would have parted company with his wife when their divorce was finalized. I know that I and others questioned him about remaining in the home with her.
> 
> If he had been apart from her he could have better evaluated his feelings for and about her without her physical presence complicating or confusing or dulling them.
> 
> Just sayin',
> 
> Seasalt


i chalk it up to the difference between being a spectator and being the quarterback. 

but i gotta say, how he handled it in the new marriage was pretty weak... like walking off the field in the middle of a play.


----------



## MattMatt

White Rose said:


> I did not cheat after we got remarried, it was supposed to be a new start. What happened was that the affair ended and I told Chris that I had been in love with someone. the next day it was back on again and that is how it happens to be twice. Chris' affair was an exit affair, he got close to another woman also a couple of months before this one but nothing happened there. I was only talking with him about it today. He started to let himself get into situations with women he would never have done. I think he was looking for reassurance he was attractive. He has always been a bit thick in that department and has had at least 2 colleagues in the past tell him they love him but he has always told me about it.


Bingo! That was *exactly* my problem. Women would hit on me and I only knew it when my wife told me they were hitting on me!


----------



## As'laDain

i used to have the same problem. nowadays, i pay attention to their eyes. they tell a lot. 

but, go figure, paying attention to a womans eyes makes me more approachable and seem more confident. which, makes me more attractive to women...

hence why i make sure there are practices in place to ensure that i dont slip into an affair... i know i could fall into one. it DOES feel good to get the attention. 

fortunately for my wife, it also makes me feel a bit awkward...


----------



## 2ntnuf

As'laDain said:


> she shouldnt have to rely on his forgiveness, i agree.
> 
> but if she can find it in herself to forgive him, *because he obviously had his reasons*, than she can find it in herself to forgive herself. she just needs to find out why she did it first. then forgive herself and move on.


I disagree with the part in bold. Again, you are blaming the BS for the infidelity and not accepting that it is a choice.

I believe this to be a grievous error in the process of growth to prevent recurrences. It's awful tough to build on a foundation of justification.


----------



## As'laDain

2ntnuf said:


> I disagree with the part in bold. Again, you are blaming the BS for the infidelity and not accepting that it is a choice.
> 
> I believe this to be a grievous error in the process of growth to prevent recurrences. It's awful tough to build on a foundation of justification.


im not sure why you have such an issue with it, im not blaming anyone. i never said SHE was the reason he chose to cheat. he may blame her, but it was still his choice. and we have to accept that. he chose to cheat for a reason... it may not be a good reason, but he chose to do it, so their must be a reason. 

i need to start explaining what i mean better... she cheated for some reason. he cheated for some reason. she seems to be willing to forgive him, i guess because she would feel hypocritical if she didnt. and partially because she has some understanding of why he chose to cheat. it doesnt make it right, but hey, it is what it is. 

but, if she can forgive him even though he chose to do this to her, she can forgive herself. thats the point im really getting at.


----------



## 2ntnuf

As'laDain said:


> im not sure why you have such an issue with it, im not blaming anyone. i never said SHE was the reason he chose to cheat. he may blame her, but it was still his choice. and we have to accept that. he chose to cheat for a reason... it may not be a good reason, but he chose to do it, so their must be a reason.
> 
> i need to start explaining what i mean better... she cheated for some reason. he cheated for some reason. she seems to be willing to forgive him, i guess because she would feel hypocritical if she didnt. and partially because she has some understanding of why he chose to cheat. it doesnt make it right, but hey, it is what it is.
> 
> but, if she can forgive him even though he chose to do this to her, she can forgive herself. thats the point im really getting at.


I really don't think I am misunderstanding you. My belief is folks cheat for reasons that are within themselves, not because of any reason they can come up with that they were unhappy with their partner. Those reasons may be valid for any of the following actions:

-Divorce
-IC
-MC
-Separation (although I personally don't believe separation helps except in certain cases)

Infidelity is not one of the consequences I listed. 

I don't believe she needs to forgive him, although I understand why you say that. If she believes she caused him to cheat, which is incorrect, then she can accept that she was wrong for forcing him and correct those issues. She didn't force him. 

Neither did he force her to cheat by anything he did prior to her affair. Do you see the difference between justification and responsibility?


----------



## bfree

The information being imparted in this thread is absolutely fantastic. WS (and Chris) I hope you are following along. This is pure gold and will be of immense value regardless of how your mutual relationship ends up.


----------



## jim123

White Rose said:


> I really want to find out why I cheated, I want to look at why I treated him badly before that as well, I think I uncovered some really deep stuff after counseling and a sleepless night last night. I want to look at why I chose the OM despite him being a loser and at whether I loved Chris at all.


This is key and you need to be honest with yourself then Chris.


----------



## As'laDain

2ntnuf said:


> I really don't think I am misunderstanding you. My belief is folks cheat for reasons that are within themselves, not because of any reason they can come up with that they were unhappy with their partner. Those reasons may be valid for any of the following actions:
> 
> -Divorce
> -IC
> -MC
> -Separation (although I personally don't believe separation helps except in certain cases)
> 
> Infidelity is not one of the consequences I listed.
> 
> I don't believe she needs to forgive him, although I understand why you say that. If she believes she caused him to cheat, which is incorrect, then she can accept that she was wrong for forcing him and correct those issues. She didn't force him.
> 
> Neither did he force her to cheat by anything he did prior to her affair. Do you see the difference between justification and responsibility?



im not sure where the disconnect lies. personally, i dont see a difference between blaming another spouse and wanting revenge and being so insecure that the thought of someone of the opposite sex giving them attention being enough to fall into the trap of infidelity. 

it makes no difference what the reason is, what the justification is, it all has the same result. it hurts someone. the act of forgiving it is so that you can move on, or provide resolution. but, just the same as you have to have a reason to cheat, you have to have a reason to forgive. strange enough, you might find yourself struggling to justify forgiveness too. either way, as long as it lets you get rid of the anger, its worth it. 

in the end, the reason doesnt matter. the result does.


----------



## 2ntnuf

As'laDain said:


> im not sure where the disconnect lies. personally, i dont see a difference between blaming another spouse and wanting revenge and being so insecure that the thought of someone of the opposite sex giving them attention being enough to fall into the trap of infidelity.
> 
> it makes no difference what the reason is, what the justification is, it all has the same result. it hurts someone. the act of forgiving it is so that you can move on, or provide resolution. but, just the same as you have to have a reason to cheat, you have to have a reason to forgive. strange enough, you might find yourself struggling to justify forgiveness too. either way, as long as it lets you get rid of the anger, its worth it.
> 
> in the end, the reason doesnt matter. the result does.


Both the examples you gave in the first paragraph are excuses for bad behavior. There is no difference. 

When someone looks inward and finds why they added infidelity to the list of acceptable actions to choose when a spouse hurts their feelings and works on those, they have accepted responsibility for their infidelity. 

I think when they do this and work on those reasons, which are personal to them and not a result of the influence of others, they can heal more fully and will likely not be so quick to be unfaithful again. 

The WS who becomes a BS(WR in this thread) will then be able to honestly forgive and empathize with the spouse who hurt them with infidelity. I think they will much more easily forgive themselves, and that has to come first before they can understand why they are forgiving anyone else.

This does not address the issues which caused needs not to be met. That comes partly from this, but also from the two spouses working together, toward compromise and acceptance. I think it's, "putting the cart before the horse", if these needs are worked on before the issues within the spouse who was unfaithful. In this case both spouses, unfortunately. 

There will be a more complete forgiveness as the couple works on the needs not being met. If that ever occurs due to the couple attempting reconciliation.


----------



## As'laDain

2ntnuf said:


> Both the examples you gave in the first paragraph are excuses for bad behavior. There is no difference.
> 
> When someone looks inward and finds why they added infidelity to the list of acceptable actions to choose when a spouse hurts their feelings and works on those, they have accepted responsibility for their infidelity.
> 
> I think when they do this and work on those reasons, which are personal to them and not a result of the influence of others, they can heal more fully and will likely not be so quick to be unfaithful again.
> 
> The WS who becomes a BS(WR in this thread) will then be able to honestly forgive and empathize with the spouse who hurt them with infidelity. I think they will much more easily forgive themselves, and that has to come first before they can understand why they are forgiving anyone else.
> 
> This does not address the issues which caused needs not to be met. That comes partly from this, but also from the two spouses working together, toward compromise and acceptance. I think it's, "putting the cart before the horse", if these needs are worked on before the issues within the spouse who was unfaithful. In this case both spouses, unfortunately.
> 
> There will be a more complete forgiveness as the couple works on the needs not being met. If that ever occurs due to the couple attempting reconciliation.


and this, sir, is why i am not a philosopher. 

i agree with what you are saying. i probably couldnt articulate it myself though.


----------



## imjustwatching

WR let's be honnest Chris989 was your backup plan...
he was the safe beta husband that gonna take you back after having all the "excitement" and the wild sex(which you never showed to your husband by the way and it's just one more reason why he's a beta and a cuckold if you ask me ) 
but the only thing that you didn't think about that he may leave you one day for another woman ....
And i don't think you guys should R why? because he shouldn't take you back in the first place BUT he said here long time ago that he's gonna take you back because he believe that you gonna show him true remorse and maybe love him like you loved your loser OM (which i found really pathetic that a husband wish his wife gave him the same love and affection like her OM that she cheated with....)


----------



## Suspecting2014

imjustwatching said:


> WR let's be honnest Chris989 was your backup plan...
> he was the safe beta husband that gonna take you back after having all the "excitement" and the wild sex(which you never showed to your husband by the way and it's just one more reason why he's a beta and a cuckold if you ask me )
> but the only thing that you didn't think about that he may leave you one day for another woman ....
> And i don't think you guys should R why? because he shouldn't take you back in the first place BUT he said here long time ago that he's gonna take you back because he believe that you gonna show him true remorse and maybe love him like you loved your loser OM (which i found really pathetic that a husband wish his wife gave him the same love and affection like her OM that she cheated with....)


TAM is not a place to judge but to heal, all people here are looking to cope pain.

As hard as your words may sound, there is a truth beneath them but not only for WR, it is the need to be sincere to each other and to their own.

WR and Chris;

Stop acting on pain from the past, stop hurting your self about the things you cant change. Look into your own heart and wonder if you love each other, think it just in love matters, left out the time you have been together, kids, house, humiliation, consequences, etc.

WR, do you love Chris?
Chris, do you love WR?

Move from here.


----------



## Observer

ThePheonix said:


> One thing you learn in life. One woman's reject is several other women's treasure. Same with men. A lot of folks seem ignorant of this fact, keep pursuing a lost cause, and keep having their azzes handed to um.


So so so true!!! I wish people would understand this, I wish I did when I was at the end. Everything my ex hated about me my stbw loves. She loves me for me, everyone should be with someone like that! No less.


----------



## Observer

I would think all of us would be on the same sheet in regard to chris, since most of us have been cheated on or stuck in limbo. Apparently not :/

If he has filed for D, by all means go and do what you want. Keeping WR in limbo though, while having an affair...well it's just wrong. And how can he make up his mind what he wants while distracted by a POA? This is payback, pure and simple. That's not healthy for either of them or their relationship.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

White rose, seek help and learn to move on. Sure what you did was wrong, and you should just let him go. Work to become a better person for your own sake. Learn to be a healthy individual, and learn that you can learn and grow. So when, or if you enter another relationship, you will not put another partner through this. Hard as it is, life simply does not go on hold, and you still have a lot of life left. You have to forgive yourself by learning and changing that which you can. Make yourself self aware so that type of behavior stops. Remember, people are responsible for their own choices.

Chris may never come back to you, and you simply can't wait to see if he does. The relationship he is in could last from several months to five years, and if they work through their issues, then your out of luck. Show your kids that people can change, and change for the better. Show them that some bad choices does not define them forever, and people are in constant flux. Show them personal growth, and that life is not condemned to misery for the rest of your life.

Acknowledge your bad choices, and find a way to accept those bad choices. Accept the consequences for those choices, and move on.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ThePheonix said:


> One thing you learn in life. One woman's reject is several other women's treasure. Same with men. A lot of folks seem ignorant of this fact, keep pursuing a lost cause, and keep having their azzes handed to um.


THIS is what helped me stop competing with another woman in my own home. The realization that I am a treasure regardless of what my H thinks and that SOMEONE would pick me up in a heartbeat allowed me to do two things... relax AND stop looking from validation from him.  And it also gave me the courage to require heavy lifting from him now that I think about it.. :smthumbup: I stopped being afraid to lose him.

ETA: would pick me up in a heartbeat IF I let them


----------



## vellocet

White Rose said:


> I really want to find out why I cheated


You know why you did it, you just don't want to say it.




> I want to look at why I chose the OM despite him being a loser


Do you really think that you get to make that call about OM? If you cheated on your husband, you really have no business assigning that label to OM, no matter how true it might be.




> and at whether I loved Chris at all.


If you did, you wouldn't have cheated on him. And I don't care what anyone says about that.


----------



## MattMatt

imjustwatching said:


> WR let's be honnest Chris989 was your backup plan...
> he was the safe beta husband that gonna take you back after having all the "excitement" and the wild sex(which you never showed to your husband by the way and it's just one more reason why he's a beta and a cuckold if you ask me )
> but the only thing that you didn't think about that he may leave you one day for another woman ....
> And i don't think you guys should R why? because he shouldn't take you back in the first place BUT he said here long time ago that he's gonna take you back because he believe that you gonna show him true remorse and maybe love him like you loved your loser OM (which i found really pathetic that a husband wish his wife gave him the same love and affection like her OM that she cheated with....)


In many cases a WS has NO backup plan!

What happens is that the WS starts an affair and puts the AP in one box and their spouse in another. Compartmentalism.

And talk of cuckolds is unhelpful as that wasn't the case here and is not the case in the vast majority of cases of infidelity that we see here at TAM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

MattMatt said:


> In many cases a WS has NO backup plan!
> 
> What happens is that the WS starts an affair and puts the AP in one box and their spouse in another. Compartmentalism.
> 
> And talk of cuckolds is unhelpful as that wasn't the case here and is not the case in the vast majority of cases of infidelity that we see here at TAM.


You're wrong. Plan A is spouse and lover; Plan B is "just" spouse.


----------



## sammy3

White Rose, 

It's impossible to sleep with someone outside of the marriage and not spoil the things we care about inside of it. 

Reading your thread you sound so much like my h did. He was long time in coming around to finally really "getting it."

We were married 28 yrs when he cheated on me. He was as remorseful as you are. ((This was almost 4 yrs ago)) He really believed that our love would get us through it as he loved me unconditionally. 
We had a strong healthy marriage before the cheating. 

I too understand why you could not give back to Chris. One reason, was, he wanted you back. He was to easy and that wasn't attractive to you. 

Two, you no longer loved him the same way, nor he you, being with another changes so much inside of each...

First, you have to learn a whole new marriage, learn to re love each other, to reconnect, & that might never happen again...

...but you had been a couple for so long, the thoughts of being without him is scary, even thou it may be what you don't want to do. 

Now that hubby has move in to the world out side of wanting you back and only willing to work on it with you, the ball is out of your court to say, you're not so keen on that anymore, but at the same time, not to upset either, because you're ok with it at the same time. 

But the reality is, affairs are messy, ruin peoples lives, set people in such different directions than they ever expected to be on. 

I know for myself for almost 30 years I lived a blissful life, a secure life, a predictable safe life. I knew pretty much what my day, and my next week, and my next few months were going to be like and who were going to be in it. It was a happy safe cocoon. My h affair blew that cocoon completely apart, and since that day, I have lived everyday in the present, I don't think of of the past anymore, nor the future.

It's the gift the ww gives the bs. Welcome to the club. 

~sammy


----------



## G.J.

Being fairly new here ref the plan A and Plan B scenario

Are we saying and is it understood that at some time in the Affair a WS consciously or subconsciously understands these options and using them in there endeavour to continue the A ?


----------



## 2ntnuf

G.J. said:


> Being fairly new here ref the plan A and Plan B scenario
> 
> Are we saying and is it understood that at some time in the Affair a WS consciously or subconsciously understands these options and using them in there endeavour to continue the A ?


I would guess it's more common for men and women to look for someone while they have someone than to leave and look for another. It's really tough to be alone, usually tougher than living with a husband/wife you've decided not to stay with long-term. I know it was that way when I was dating. I can't imagine that habit would be dropped because of marriage. It's much less hurtful than being alone. There is also, or at least used to be in my area, the thought that someone alone is not a good catch. If that person is dating continuously, even if they are married and looking, they must be a catch of some sort. This is a huge guess, but somewhat educated from what I've experienced and what I've been told by other men I knew as a teen/young adult.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> she shouldnt have to rely on his forgiveness, i agree.
> 
> but if she can find it in herself to forgive him, because he obviously had his reasons, than she can find it in herself to forgive herself. she just needs to find out why she did it first. then forgive herself and move on.


I totally forgive him because I know he would never have done this if I had not done it in the first place and had got my act together quickly to save the marriage.


----------



## Suspecting2014

White Rose said:


> As'laDain said:
> 
> 
> 
> she shouldnt have to rely on his forgiveness, i agree.
> 
> but if she can find it in herself to forgive him, because he obviously had his reasons, than she can find it in herself to forgive herself. she just needs to find out why she did it first. then forgive herself and move on.
> 
> 
> 
> I totally forgive him because I know he would never have done this if I had not done it in the first place and had got my act together quickly to save the marriage.
Click to expand...

Did you forgive your self? Bacause it is time


----------



## Clay2013

Sadly I just can not see how your marriage can return from this. You gave the most special part of you to someone else. You did this for over two years. Chris knows this every day. He knows you not only freely did this you were happy to give that part of you to someone else. He knows he never experienced that part of you and it will always haunt him that you did not love him the same. 

I personally hope you both just work on the friendship and co parenting. Its really clear that you do not share that same spark with Chris and he now knows that. There is nothing wrong with that you just have to deal with it. Some people just don't have it and still try to make a marriage work. Its best you let him go now and let him find that woman he will find that connection with. In the end you can move on to someone you have that with and you will both be happy. 

Clay


----------



## ConanHub

GusPolinski said:


> You're wrong. Plan A is spouse and lover; Plan B is "just" spouse.


Love this! Gonna steal it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

ConanHub said:


> Love this! Gonna steal it!


Make sure that go w/ the amended version...

"You're wrong. Plan A is spouse _and_ lover; Plan B is _just_ the spouse... or (sometimes) _just the lover_."


----------



## ConanHub

GusPolinski said:


> Make sure that go w/ the amended version...
> 
> "You're wrong. Plan A is spouse _and_ lover; Plan B is _just_ the spouse... or (sometimes) _just the lover_."


I need a "Gus" saying phone app. I could get automatic updates!&#55357;&#56842;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

ConanHub said:


> I need a "Gus" saying phone app. I could get automatic updates!��


Ha! I'll see what I can do. Android or iOS?

Here are a couple of gems...

"'Should' ain't 'is'." (My response to "Well, it _should_ be doing this...")

"_Everything_ always works... until it doesn't." (My response to "...but it was JUST working!!!")

If you can't tell, I work in IT.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

imjustwatching said:


> WR let's be honnest Chris989 was your backup plan...
> he was the safe beta husband that gonna take you back after having all the "excitement" and the wild sex(which you never showed to your husband by the way and it's just one more reason why he's a beta and a cuckold if you ask me )
> but the only thing that you didn't think about that he may leave you one day for another woman ....
> And i don't think you guys should R why? because he shouldn't take you back in the first place BUT he said here long time ago that he's gonna take you back because he believe that you gonna show him true remorse and maybe love him like you loved your loser OM (which i found really pathetic that a husband wish his wife gave him the same love and affection like her OM that she cheated with....)


I need to point out here that me and Chris have always had good sex that is fulfilling. The wild sex he thought me and the OM had was very much something I could not talk him down from. There is one thing I did that I didnt usually want to do and I'm not going into that but there are many more things I did with my husband than with the OM. There is an assumption from Chris that it was better because of penis size mattering, which I totally disagree with. Sorry but this is all ridiculous. I have always maintained that the sex was heartless and not very fulfilling and I never once orgasmed, he does not believe me on this but what can I say. It did not feel loving which is what most women want. I just liked being there, it was an escape at the time. I did like the sex but it was not fulfilling like it is within a proper relationship. I did sleep with Chris during the affair and as messed up as this sounds he comforted me. 

I do give Chris more than the other man got and have kept this up doing what I didn't used to. There is only me knows what went on in that bedroom for sure and I can say Chris gets better attention which is not desperate and is a two way process, (got to be better.) and still really hot sex. there is also an assumption that people have affairs to get better sex. This was not true, I didn't care what it was like I just liked being with him as I said before it was an escape. I did not need an affair to get good sex, I had it at home already. 
Sorry it annoys me when people think we had bad sex or I didn't give it up for him, sure before the affair there were times sex dropped off like in most relationships.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Suspecting2014 said:


> TAM is not a place to judge but to heal, all people here are looking to cope pain.
> 
> As hard as your words may sound, there is a truth beneath them but not only for WR, it is the need to be sincere to each other and to their own.
> 
> WR and Chris;
> 
> Stop acting on pain from the past, stop hurting your self about the things you cant change. Look into your own heart and wonder if you love each other, think it just in love matters, left out the time you have been together, kids, house, humiliation, consequences, etc.
> 
> WR, do you love Chris?
> Chris, do you love WR?
> 
> Move from here.


Well, I do I know that but the other one needs his time out. He will always love me I know that.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Observer said:


> I would think all of us would be on the same sheet in regard to chris, since most of us have been cheated on or stuck in limbo. Apparently not :/
> 
> If he has filed for D, by all means go and do what you want. Keeping WR in limbo though, while having an affair...well it's just wrong. And how can he make up his mind what he wants while distracted by a POA? This is payback, pure and simple. That's not healthy for either of them or their relationship.


Chris has made it quite clear he does not want to divorce or remarry but time will tell but at the moment he says he does not want to divorce. Ask him those of you who chat to him.


----------



## Squeakr

White Rose said:


> There is one thing I did that I didnt usually want to do and I'm not going into that but there are many more things I did with my husband than with the OM.


The problem is that you don't understand how important sex is to a man (just being there may be good enough for a woman but men require more generally). When you did the part of giving something to the OM that you never gave (or rarely gave) to the H and denied him that request, it is a kick to the groin. The second part of this statement shouldn't even need to be said as that is the way it is supposed to be. Since you have to bring this point to the front, it says lots about the dynamic that is and was at play. No man wants to feel like it is a comparison war, him against someone else. That game is supposed to stop once the vows are exchange and commitments made. That's what you need to realize to move on from this.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

I agree, I stopped loving him for a duration, I was dead inside and just wanted to escape. I did it, I wanted to and didn't really stop to think about anything other than not getting caught. I was attracted to the OM because he was black and I was intrigued (and not about willy's).


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

White Rose said:


> I agree, I stopped loving him for a duration, I was dead inside and just wanted to escape. I did it, I wanted to and didn't really stop to think about anything other than not getting caught. I was attracted to the OM because he was black and I was intrigued (and not about willy's).


The above should have been attached to Houses 3 part question.


----------



## imjustwatching

MattMatt said:


> In many cases a WS has NO backup plan!
> 
> What happens is that the WS starts an affair and puts the AP in one box and their spouse in another. Compartmentalism.
> 
> And talk of cuckolds is unhelpful as that wasn't the case here and is not the case in the vast majority of cases of infidelity that we see here at TAM.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Really ? because he spend months here crying about the fact that his wife did things for the OM sexually that she would never allowed him to do .

and this is from WR latest posts today : There is an assumption from Chris that it was better because of penis size mattering,


I hope your convinced now just imagine there conversation when she told him OM has a bigger penis .... He was a cuckold plain and simple

EDIT:
And and and her last post : I was attracted to the OM because he was black 

come on man he was a cuckold and i'm not even trying to be funny here


----------



## ConanHub

GusPolinski said:


> Ha! I'll see what I can do. Android or iOS?
> 
> Here are a couple of gems...
> 
> "'Should' ain't 'is'." (My response to "Well, it _should_ be doing this...")
> 
> "_Everything_ always works... until it doesn't." (My response to "...but it was JUST working!!!")
> 
> If you can't tell, I work in IT.


It's a Nokia Lumia Windows Phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Suspecting2014 said:


> Did you forgive your self? Bacause it is time


No I do not, my children are going through a hard time with their dad elsewhere and it's my fault. They forgive me but their faces just want their dad back. How can I forgive myself, it was purely selfish.


----------



## imjustwatching

White Rose said:


> . Sorry but this is all ridiculous. I have always maintained that the sex was heartless and not very fulfilling and I never once orgasmed, he does not believe me on this but what can I say. I.


The sex was not good yet you come back for sex every time ? and you are surprised because he doesn't believe this facts ? really ??
I'm really sorry if i sound harsh but you did make a cuckold of your husband and you can't even deny the hard facts..
- he was black 
-has a bigger penis than your husband 
-did things in bed for him that you wouldn't accept to do with your husband


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

imjustwatching said:


> Really ? because he spend months here crying about the fact that his wife did things for the OM sexually that she would never allowed him to do .
> 
> and this is from WR latest posts today : There is an assumption from Chris that it was better because of penis size mattering,
> 
> 
> I hope your convinced now just imagine there conversation when she told him OM has a bigger penis .... He was a cuckold plain and simple
> 
> EDIT:
> And and and her last post : I was attracted to the OM because he was black
> 
> come on man he was a cuckold and i'm not even trying to be funny here


I discussed everything Chris asked about in regard to the sex side of the affair. He wanted to know. I had not acknowledged that I was interested in him because of his colour but have looked hard at this and it is a primary factor in why I was attracted to him. I had other wise thought it was because he told me I was clever but that just contributed to it. Loads of other work colleagues say I am clever, and i don't start something up with them. I was impressed by parts of his culture.


----------



## G.J.

White Rose said:


> No I do not, my children are going through a hard time with their dad elsewhere and it's my fault. They forgive me but their faces just want their dad back. How can I forgive myself, it was purely selfish.


Yes


----------



## Squeakr

White Rose said:


> I discussed everything Chris asked about in regard to the sex side of the affair. He wanted to know. I had not acknowledged that I was interested in him because of his colour but have looked hard at this and it is a primary factor in why I was attracted to him. I had other wise thought it was because he told me I was clever but that just contributed to it. Loads of other work colleagues say I am clever, and i don't start something up with them. I was impressed by parts of his culture.


Did he ever see any correspondence between you two where you remarked about how great it was. I ask as I had the same response with my STBXW where she said that it wasn't that good and she did it because she felt connected to them and owed them that (great what does that say about me as she NEVER felt that she owed it to me???). However in her email exchanges she talks about the "greatest orgasms she has ever had" and that "no one has ever done that for her like he has"! How does one read this and see otherwise no matter what they are telling. The truth is in there somewhere and since I wasn't getting it, which do you think is more true?? I know my thoughts on this.


----------



## As'laDain

wait a second... how long after the new marriage did chris start something up with the OW? and then how long before he left to be with her?


----------



## GusPolinski

ConanHub said:


> It's a Nokia Lumia Windows Phone.


Well damn. No app for you!


----------



## Suspecting2014

White Rose said:


> No I do not, my children are going through a hard time with their dad elsewhere and it's my fault. They forgive me but their faces just want their dad back. How can I forgive myself, it was purely selfish.


IMO you need to forget your self to become a better person, better mother and maybe a better wife. You own it to Chris and your kids.


----------



## As'laDain

White Rose said:


> No I do not, my children are going through a hard time with their dad elsewhere and it's my fault. They forgive me but their faces just want their dad back.* How can I forgive myself, it was purely selfish.*


thats actually pretty simple. become someone new. then you can forgive the new person for what the old one did.


----------



## MattMatt

As'laDain said:


> thats actually pretty simple. become someone new. then you can forgive the new person for what the old one did.


Work on becoming that new person. Then that new person can, from their position, forgive the old person, who no longer exists.:smthumbup:


----------



## NoChoice

WR,
I am not so sure that totally forgiving yourself is such a good thing. Allow me to elaborate. If there is the propensity in you to succumb to the temptation of another, for whatever reason, be it culture, color, penis size, or whatever, perhaps the ever present gnawing bit of guilt may be a constant reminder of what it truly feels like in the end. I am a believer in moving on and R whenever possible but I also believe that our life experiences shape and mold us into the people we are.

Just as Chris will carry this with him forever perhaps you doing the same will give you two a common thread to help stitch back your tattered tapestry of marriage. At the very least it may serve to bring strong negative emotions to the forefront if you are ever faced with this temptation again. And if what you say is true I am not sure you will ever have the ability to really forgive yourself completely. Perhaps that's part of the whole package deal with infidelity in a truly remorseful person or it could even be what makes them truly remorseful.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> wait a second... how long after the new marriage did chris start something up with the OW? and then how long before he left to be with her?


I was talking to him about this the other day, I'd say it started with a kiss only weeks after the remarriage and about 3 1/2 months later he slept with her and that was one week before he left.


----------



## As'laDain

NoChoice said:


> WR,
> I am not so sure that totally forgiving yourself is such a good thing. Allow me to elaborate. If there is the propensity in you to succumb to the temptation of another, for whatever reason, be it culture, color, penis size, or whatever, perhaps the ever present gnawing bit of guilt may be a constant reminder of what it truly feels like in the end. I am a believer in moving on and R whenever possible but I also believe that our life experiences shape and mold us into the people we are.
> 
> Just as Chris will carry this with him forever perhaps you doing the same will give you two a common thread to help stitch back your tattered tapestry of marriage. At the very least it may serve to bring strong negative emotions to the forefront if you are ever faced with this temptation again. And if what you say is true I am not sure you will ever have the ability to really forgive yourself completely. Perhaps that's part of the whole package deal with infidelity in a truly remorseful person or it could even be what makes them truly remorseful.


i disagree with this. 

have you ever carried around something for so long that you feel you will always be defined, and define yourself, by it? have you ever looked at the good things you COULD do and experience and remembered that you dont deserve it, so decide not to?

what you are describing is what i like to call the difference between forgiveness and forgetting. she will never be able to forget, but she can forgive.


----------



## As'laDain

White Rose said:


> I was talking to him about this the other day, I'd say it started with a kiss only weeks after the remarriage and about 3 1/2 months later he slept with her and that was one week before he left.


so, basically, nearly the entire time you were trying to reconcile and make this new marriage work, he had a love interest on the side?


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> what did you uncover after counseling?


Well, I've changed Councillors, I don't think he was ever going to tell me something was crap. He kept saying everything was alright and I just wanted to say, actually it's not. I didn't feel comfortable. It sort of jump started my thought patterns though and after a few sleepless nights I began to look at how I lied to myself about why I did it. I thought it was because I was unhappy but there is no reason other than because I wanted to. I gave myself permission by thinking I was unhappy when I just wanted an affair with a black guy and had access to one. The fact that he flattered me and said I was clever was rubbish cos other people did this and I didn't start one with them. I was attracted to him because he was well built and was impressed by some aspects of his culture. If I'm honest I didn't think it would work but didn't care really. I think it may have been like a stepping stone out of the marriage. I fooled myself into thinking I loved him so it didn't seem wrong and so I could excuse myself and settle my conscience. I think I liked the power of it, i'm not sure, of trying to get other man away from his GF. I didn't waste any time crying after it finished. The major one was seeing how I caused arguments with Chris before anything went on and thought he was the cause. My mum and dad argued a lot and to me that was normal. My dad needled people in a horrible way sometimes and belittled people so this didn't seem bad because it was my dad and I loved him. It was my needling him and finding fault that caused arguments not Chris' retaliation,


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> so, basically, nearly the entire time you were trying to reconcile and make this new marriage work, he had a love interest on the side?


Yes, he said it was the only way he could get out of the marriage once he cheated. I thought it was a fresh start but he just didn't like not being married to someone he lived with.


----------



## NoChoice

As'laDain said:


> i disagree with this.
> 
> have you ever carried around something for so long that you feel you will always be defined, and define yourself, by it? have you ever looked at the good things you COULD do and experience and remembered that you dont deserve it, so decide not to?
> 
> what you are describing is what i like to call the difference between forgiveness and forgetting. she will never be able to forget, but she can forgive.


I understand your position of disagreement. I also understand the impingement that the guilt can cause on one's future experiences and that is what I meant by it being part and parcel of the results of having an affair. I know mine may not be a popular opinion to hold but I cannot help but feel that the person that cheats is forever changed and that no matter how much they want to go back, it is simply not possible. I feel that many people stress forgiveness too quickly and that allowing people to feel the pain of their actions is beneficial and necessary to experiencing growth. It is less likely that a person learns a lesson from an easy outcome than it is from a difficult one.

That is not to say that at some point the WS will not feel that they now have the ability to forgive themselves but I believe that it should be allowed to run its course and help establish strong engrams against that type of behavior. Actually remaking their thought process. I feel it is an integral part of the method of self correction

I hope I have explained my thoughts clearly enough and I do not ask that you agree, merely that you understand my intent. I say what I say to try and help people and intend no malice or harm. I just believe that guilt has a place in the process of being truly, deeply remorseful and that it should not be dismissed too easily or prematurely.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> so, basically, nearly the entire time you were trying to reconcile and make this new marriage work, he had a love interest on the side?


I think he is very confused at the moment, he says he is feeling better as soon as he left the home.


----------



## As'laDain

NoChoice said:


> I understand your position of disagreement. I also understand the impingement that the guilt can cause on one's future experiences and that is what I meant by it being part and parcel of the results of having an affair. I know mine may not be a popular opinion to hold but I cannot help but feel that the person that cheats is forever changed and that no matter how much they want to go back, it is simply not possible. I feel that many people stress forgiveness too quickly and that allowing people to feel the pain of their actions is beneficial and necessary to experiencing growth. It is less likely that a person learns a lesson from an easy outcome than it is from a difficult one.
> 
> That is not to say that at some point the WS will not feel that they now have the ability to forgive themselves but I believe that it should be allowed to run its course and help establish strong engrams against that type of behavior. Actually remaking their thought process. I feel it is an integral part of the method of self correction
> 
> I hope I have explained my thoughts clearly enough and I do not ask that you agree, merely that you understand my intent. I say what I say to try and help people and intend no malice or harm. I just believe that guilt has a place in the process of being truly, deeply remorseful and that it should not be dismissed too easily or prematurely.


so basically, your saying that they should experience the full guilt of their actions, and forgive themselves later. 

did i get that right? if so, i agree.


----------



## As'laDain

White Rose said:


> *Yes, he said it was the only way he could get out of the marriage once he cheated*. I thought it was a fresh start but he just didn't like not being married to someone he lived with.


this isnt making sense to me... the sentences i mean.

he could only get out of a marriage, after having cheated, by having a love interest/ affair? he expected to get out of the marriage but he had to cheat first in order to do it?



and it WAS supposed to be a fresh start. if this is what he told you it was, then thats what it was supposed to be. he decided to try to reconcile. he also decided to cheat on you. so dont think that you are the reason your remarriage failed. he had a big part in that.


----------



## jim123

Is your overall expectation that Chris says, "Oh she just wanted a black man." and just be fine with it.

Since Chris is not black, do you really want him?

Other than friendship, does Chris have any value?

What happens when a black man becomes available to you again>

If that is what you want, just let Chris go as that is not something he will ever be.

Be happy and that does not appear to be Chris.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Yeah WR, I know what you mean. Women always have sex with an OM for 2.5 years, even though they didn't like it as much as having sex with their Husbands...

Happens all the time.


----------



## Chris989

I don't want to post too much on this thread as it's for WR.

A couple of points I would like to make clear:

- I have told WR from _*day one*_ that she needs to heal herself before we could heal; I asked that she posted here and sought counselling within weeks of Dday 2

- I remarried her because I thought we could make a go of it again and I couldn't do that without being married. Looking back I was still in a mess emotionally. I still am.

- WR is correct to say I started letting women into my life in ways I would have shut down in the past.

- I had zero conscious intention of leaving WR for another woman and I would still contend that I have not left her for another woman. I have left her and there is another woman involved. These statements are neither mutually dependant, nor mutually exclusive. They are what they are.

- I had no intention of sleeping with this other woman until perhaps an hour before I did. I have found since Dday 2 that I, quite unlike the old me, make snap decisions with enormous consequences. At this time I had already told WR I was leaving.

- For example, just 5 months ago I quit my job, going self employed more or less on a whim. My "plan" was a half sheet of A4 paper and confidence in my abilities. I can honestly say that the night before this I had no intention of doing it. It was the same when I divorced WR and maybe the same when I remarried her. I have no idea why I am now like this but it is a bit scary - if not a little fun.

- The morning after I did sleep with this woman I told WR and within a day had arranged to move out of our home. I could not lie about it to her.

IMO this thread should not be about my actions. WR has not even begun to understand why she is as she is.

Just last night there was an astounding example of her, yet again, lying to me when _we both knew she was lying_.

Her brother is exactly the same; he will look you in the eye and lie to you and he knows you know he is lying but he cannot stop himself.

That, in my opinion, is at the core of all of this. I understand the reasons for this behaviour and we have discussed it many times, but ultimately WR has to figure this out for herself. The fact that she is still lying is an enormously bad sign to me, but she needs help. Hence why she is here and why she needs that counselling.

Had she undertook these things 2 1/2 years ago we could have been happily into a successful R but, as with many of the things I asked for she would not and did not until it was too late.

Sorry for the long post but I thought it was relevant to WR. Please, guys, help WR if you can. I don't believe examining my motivations helps her and just complicates her thread. I have handled this badly in many ways. My thread is in my sig if you want to come sling mud 

edit/ one last thing - the sex thing is a bit of a red herring. The OM's penis size doesn't bother me in the slightest - never has. There are other aspects which do which I will happily deal with in my thread but it's in the past now. I've moved on. WR and I have (had, I suppose) awesome sex even if the frequency was not right.


----------



## tom67

Chris989 said:


> I don't want to post too much on this thread as it's for WR.
> 
> A couple of points I would like to make clear:
> 
> - I have told WR from _*day one*_ that she needs to heal herself before we could heal; I asked that she posted here and sought counselling within weeks of Dday 2
> 
> - I remarried her because I thought we could make a go of it again and I couldn't do that without being married. Looking back I was still in a mess emotionally. I still am.
> 
> - WR is correct to say I started letting women into my life in ways I would have shut down in the past.
> 
> - I had zero conscious intention of leaving WR for another woman and I would still contend that I have not left her for another woman. I have left her and there is another woman involved. These statements are neither mutually dependant, nor mutually exclusive. They are what they are.
> 
> - I had no intention of sleeping with this other woman until perhaps an hour before I did. I have found since Dday 2 that I, quite unlike the old me, make snap decisions with enormous consequences. At this time I had already told WR I was leaving.
> 
> - For example, just 5 months ago I quit my job, going self employed more or less on a whim. My "plan" was a half sheet of A4 paper and confidence in my abilities. I can honestly say that the night before this I had no intention of doing it. It was the same when I divorced WR and maybe the same when I remarried her. I have no idea why I am now like this but it is a bit scary - if not a little fun.
> 
> - The morning after I did sleep with this woman I told WR and within a day had arranged to move out of our home. I could not lie about it to her.
> 
> IMO this thread should not be about my actions. WR has not even begun to understand why she is as she is.
> 
> Just last night there was an astounding example of her, yet again, lying to me when _we both knew she was lying_.
> 
> Her brother is exactly the same; he will look you in the eye and lie to you and he knows you know he is lying but he cannot stop himself.
> 
> That, in my opinion, is at the core of all of this. I understand the reasons for this behaviour and we have discussed it many times, but ultimately WR has to figure this out for herself. The fact that she is still lying is an enormously bad sign to me, but she needs help. Hence why she is here and why she needs that counselling.
> 
> Had she undertook these things 2 1/2 years ago we could have been happily into a successful R but, as with many of the things I asked for she would not and did not until it was too late.
> 
> Sorry for the long post but I thought it was relevant to WR. Please, guys, help WR if you can. I don't believe examining my motivations helps her and just complicates her thread. I have handled this badly in many ways. My thread is in my sig if you want to come sling mud
> 
> edit/ one last thing - the sex thing is a bit of a red herring. The OM's penis size doesn't bother me in the slightest - never has. There are other aspects which do which I will happily deal with in my thread but it's in the past now. I've moved on. WR and I have (had, I suppose) awesome sex even if the frequency was not right.


Chris we understand
His "size" was a factor or you wouldn't have mentioned it but you got your "mojo" back and that is all good.
Onward and upwards my man.
You do deserve to be happy


----------



## Suspecting2014

jim123 said:


> *Is your overall expectation that Chris says, "Oh she just wanted a black man." and just be fine with it.*
> 
> Since Chris is not black, do you really want him?
> 
> Other than friendship, does Chris have any value?
> 
> What happens when a black man becomes available to you again>
> 
> If that is what you want, just let Chris go as that is not something he will ever be.
> 
> Be happy and that does not appear to be Chris.


She never said it was alright, this is very honest answer.

She admitting it was all because she wanted to

I understand that we all here want to find a good reason to why a spouse cheats, because the only explanation that remains when a BS was doing everything right is that the BS is just not good enough. Thats why an Affair in a happy marriage is harder to outcome into a successful R than in a bad marriage.

I think this answer will be same to the extent of the affair,

Anyhow there are no simple answers to this matters.

WR, what made you came clean?


----------



## jim123

Suspecting2014 said:


> She never said it was alright, this is very honest answer.
> 
> She admitting it was all because she wanted to
> 
> I understand that we all here want to find a good reason to why a spouse cheats, because the only explanation that remains when a BS was doing everything right is that the BS is just not good enough. Thats why an Affair in a happy marriage is harder to outcome into a successful R than in a bad marriage.
> 
> I think this answer will be same to the extent of the affair,
> 
> Anyhow there are no simple answers to this matters.
> 
> WR, what made you came clean?


You are correct in that it is harder in a good marriage. Also R is harder if there is nothing the BH can do to help prevent in the future.

This becomes something that can not be controlled which is why Chris can not get over the anger.


----------



## jim123

tom67 said:


> Chris we understand
> His "size" was a factor or you wouldn't have mentioned it but you got your "mojo" back and that is all good.
> Onward and upwards my man.
> You do deserve to be happy


I agree in that if none of it was an issue, it would not be brought up. One big problem in why this R did not work is the inability to be honest with themselves and each other.

Issues must be dealt with no matter how difficult.


----------



## Suspecting2014

jim123 said:


> Suspecting2014 said:
> 
> 
> 
> She never said it was alright, this is very honest answer.
> 
> She admitting it was all because she wanted to
> 
> I understand that we all here want to find a good reason to why a spouse cheats, because the only explanation that remains when a BS was doing everything right is that the BS is just not good enough. Thats why an Affair in a happy marriage is harder to outcome into a successful R than in a bad marriage.
> 
> I think this answer will be same to the extent of the affair,
> 
> Anyhow there are no simple answers to this matters.
> 
> WR, what made you came clean?
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct in that it is harder in a good marriage. Also R is harder if there is nothing the BH can do to help prevent in the future.
> 
> This becomes something that can not be controlled which is why Chris can not get over the anger.
Click to expand...

When is nothing to correct inBS side, the problem is the BS, and there is nothing to do. I believe this is not always truth, but alway what BS feels about.

A someone said before, it happend bc Chis is not a black man.But as true as it is, and more facts must be considered, is really hard to accept.


----------



## farsidejunky

WR:

What did you lie about last night?


----------



## MattMatt

Sometimes one persons lie can be another persons rubbish memory, or recalling things in a different way. Perhaps as a defence mechanism, or perhaps because they don't have full recall of something.


----------



## NoChoice

As'laDain said:


> so basically, your saying that they should experience the full guilt of their actions, and forgive themselves later.
> 
> did i get that right? if so, i agree.


Absolutely, fell the pain and anguish for however long it helps in their growth. Then, when/if it is no longer necessary to maintain their character, move on as a better person.


----------



## bfree

Chris, just read your last post here. I understand you would like to see WS get help, either here or in counseling. But have you noticed the infrequent nature of her posting pattern? Now there may be good reasons for this. She may be busy with the kids. She may be busy with work. Or she could not really want to post here because unlike a counselor people here do not pull punches. People here will call you out when they see bullsh!t. There are many former wayward spouses that find TAM a very valuable resource, especially when used in conjunction with counseling. But there are just as many if not more that just couldn't handle the brutal truth that they often find here. If your wife has a chronic problem with dishonesty she may be in the latter camp.


----------



## NoChoice

Chris989 said:


> I don't want to post too much on this thread as it's for WR.
> 
> A couple of points I would like to make clear:
> 
> - I have told WR from _*day one*_ that she needs to heal herself before we could heal; I asked that she posted here and sought counselling within weeks of Dday 2
> 
> - I remarried her because I thought we could make a go of it again and I couldn't do that without being married. Looking back I was still in a mess emotionally. I still am.
> 
> - WR is correct to say I started letting women into my life in ways I would have shut down in the past.
> 
> - I had zero conscious intention of leaving WR for another woman and I would still contend that I have not left her for another woman. I have left her and there is another woman involved. These statements are neither mutually dependant, nor mutually exclusive. They are what they are.
> 
> - I had no intention of sleeping with this other woman until perhaps an hour before I did. I have found since Dday 2 that I, quite unlike the old me, make snap decisions with enormous consequences. At this time I had already told WR I was leaving.
> 
> - For example, just 5 months ago I quit my job, going self employed more or less on a whim. My "plan" was a half sheet of A4 paper and confidence in my abilities. I can honestly say that the night before this I had no intention of doing it. It was the same when I divorced WR and maybe the same when I remarried her. I have no idea why I am now like this but it is a bit scary - if not a little fun.
> 
> - The morning after I did sleep with this woman I told WR and within a day had arranged to move out of our home. I could not lie about it to her.
> 
> IMO this thread should not be about my actions. WR has not even begun to understand why she is as she is.
> 
> *Just last night there was an astounding example of her, yet again, lying to me when we both knew she was lying.*
> 
> Her brother is exactly the same; he will look you in the eye and lie to you and he knows you know he is lying but he cannot stop himself.
> 
> That, in my opinion, is at the core of all of this. I understand the reasons for this behaviour and we have discussed it many times, but ultimately WR has to figure this out for herself. The fact that she is still lying is an enormously bad sign to me, but she needs help. Hence why she is here and why she needs that counselling.
> 
> Had she undertook these things 2 1/2 years ago we could have been happily into a successful R but, as with many of the things I asked for she would not and did not until it was too late.
> 
> Sorry for the long post but I thought it was relevant to WR. Please, guys, help WR if you can. I don't believe examining my motivations helps her and just complicates her thread. I have handled this badly in many ways. My thread is in my sig if you want to come sling mud
> 
> edit/ one last thing - the sex thing is a bit of a red herring. The OM's penis size doesn't bother me in the slightest - never has. There are other aspects which do which I will happily deal with in my thread but it's in the past now. I've moved on. WR and I have (had, I suppose) awesome sex even if the frequency was not right.


This is very troubling in that if this is still an ingrained behavior then how can any of us here know what is true and what is not? Our advice may be based on fiction. WR, you must first and foremost overcome this propensity to lie. Lies create fiction, truth creates reality. Fiction and reality are like matter and antimatter in that the do not mix well. However, unlike matter and antimatter, when truth and lies mix whats left is only truth because lies are not real.

Please consider this carefully because everything you do in your R, and your life in general for that matter, is contingent upon a solid foundation. Lies CANNOT build that foundation and therefore everything built on lies WILL crumble when exposed to truth. All of your efforts, even good efforts, when predicated on lies, will be of no value when it all crashes down. You must realize that one lie, even a tiny "white lie", can destroy a mountain of good work. I cannot make you see this but until you do your relationship with Chris, or anyone for that matter, will be tenuous at best. If your desire to R is sincere then you will have to speak the truth, always.


----------



## Suspecting2014

I belive She is only posting because Chris asked her to do it, I dont think she likes it or even think it is helpful.

Chis, If she doesnt change what r u going to do??


----------



## As'laDain

this is why we need chris to pop in here from time to time... 

WR, what was the lie?


----------



## Chris989

As'laDain said:


> this is why we need chris to pop in here from time to time...
> 
> WR, what was the lie?


I explained it in my thread - linked in my sig.


----------



## As'laDain

Chris989 said:


> I explained it in my thread - linked in my sig.


thank you. i just read it. 

so, WR, why do you lie about such things?


----------



## G.J.

As'laDain said:


> thank you. i just read it.
> 
> so, WR, why do you lie about such things?


:slap:


----------



## As'laDain

G.J. said:


> :slap:


may seem like a dumb question to you, but your not the one who needs to answer it... 

it needs to be stated and acknowledged by the person lying.


----------



## ThePheonix

tom67 said:


> Chris we understand
> His "size" was a factor or you wouldn't have mentioned it but you got your "mojo" back and that is all good.


Despite his old lady's desire for a diamond from the "Le Vian Collection", he right about not worrying about size (assuming he has average equipment). During my time, I had a couple of "regular" clients whose husband packed a larger caliber weapon, but couldn't seem to hit the target.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Chris*
> Please, guys, help WR if you can
> 
> I have told WR from day one that she needs to heal herself before we could heal;
> 
> Just last night there was an astounding example of her, yet again, lying to me when we both knew she was lying.
> 
> The fact that she is still lying is an *enormously bad sign to me*, but she needs help. Hence why she is here and why she needs that counselling.




White Rose

Needless to say that you and Chris both need to get a lot better in several areas if you are going to make a better relationship. Chris has told you in plain English (In GB English and American English) that your continued lying is an ENORMOUS BAD SIGN!!

*What have you done to get better in this area and what is your plan for the future in you improving in your lying?*


----------



## oneMOreguy

WR.......I actually think that an initial step might be to figure out why you are still lying about an affair that is already discovered?

-do you think you are protecting your husband from more pain in some odd sense?

-are you protecting yourself, meaning your ego or self-view?

-or are you lying in some attempt to convince your husband that you are not really worse than he already believes?

Please note that he seems very bright and has things pretty much figured out, and what he doesn't know he fills in with the worst possible options......... and your lies only make things worse............

you hurt him badly, and continue to do so by continuing your dishonesty. Makes no sense for him not to move on from someone, even someone he loves, who continues to hurt him.


----------



## seasalt

White Rose,

I asked Chris this on his thread last year about whether he was proud to be seen with you after he explained why you did what you did in much the same way you did in your recent posts.

Your now 49 years old and 46 when you took a trip down sleezy street. You say you wanted a black man and appreciated him for his culture. You chose a guy who was shady and had six children with six different women. If I were Chris I would be most concerned about what this says about the way you choose to live your life. Black culture indeed. Why not a Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandella?

You still seem to have no shame much less remorse and Chris is well rid of you.

Just sayin',

Seasalt


----------



## 2ntnuf

What is it about that age group? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

49 now? Hmm... Wants to reconcile... 46 crazy sex with a fantasy dream...


----------



## ThePheonix

" You say you wanted a black man and appreciated him for his culture."

WR must be a politician to spin it like that. If not she ought to be. That's almost like saying, "I went with a hooker because I appreciate women in business."


----------



## MattMatt

ThePheonix said:


> " You say you wanted a black man and appreciated him for his culture."
> 
> WR must be a politician to spin it like that. If not she ought to be. That's almost like saying, "I went with a hooker because I appreciate women in business."


A long time ago, Chris already told us that the interest in OMs culture was at least a component in the affair.

Doubtless OM played on this to get her to cheat with him. Well, he is a player and has form for wrecking marriages, including his own.


----------



## GusPolinski

ThePheonix said:


> " You say you wanted a black man and appreciated him for his culture."
> 
> WR must be a politician to spin it like that. If not she ought to be. That's almost like saying, "I went with a hooker because I appreciate women in business."


Ha!


----------



## 3putt

ThePheonix said:


> " You say you wanted a black man and appreciated him for his culture."
> 
> WR must be a politician to spin it like that. If not she ought to be. That's almost like saying, "I went with a hooker because I appreciate women in business."


Oh snap!


----------



## jim123

MattMatt said:


> A long time ago, Chris already told us that the interest in OMs culture was at least a component in the affair.
> 
> Doubtless OM played on this to get her to cheat with him. Well, he is a player and has form for wrecking marriages, including his own.


Per Chris the relationship was her going to him, watching TV and having sex. There are other cultures that watch TV too.

She is lying because it is what Chris wants.


----------



## ConanHub

WR cheated with OM because of garbage in her soul. No other reason.

She has shown little interest, to date, of getting rid of her garbage, addressing it or maybe even acknowledging it is there.

Just because she stopped f'ing the OM does nothing to remove the reasons she was doing it in the first place.

She is no good to anyone, including herself, until she does a lot of work on herself.

Anyone hoping for R in the "current" situation is not looking at what is best for Chris or WR.


----------



## jim123

ConanHub said:


> WR cheated with OM because of garbage in her soul. No other reason.
> 
> She has shown little interest, to date, of getting rid of her garbage, addressing it or maybe even acknowledging it is there.
> 
> Just because she stopped f'ing the OM does nothing to remove the reasons she was doing it in the first place.
> 
> She is no good to anyone, including herself, until she does a lot of work on herself.
> 
> Anyone hoping for R in the "current" situation is not looking at what is best for Chris or WR.


She does not have the passion for Chris, that is the problem. She is offering a FWB type relationship.

Actions always speak. She does not do what Chris needs because she does not have the passion she had for OM.


----------



## MattMatt

jim123 said:


> Per Chris the relationship was her going to him, watching TV and having sex. There are other cultures that watch TV too.
> 
> She is lying because it is what Chris wants.


How a player works:

"I am interested in the culture of Ireland."
"Why, isn't dat odd! Moi family is from Oirland! Did I never tell ya that? Oh, look! Jamesons is my favourite drink, now!"

"I am really interested in knitting."
"Well, that's an extraordinary coincidence. My dear late mother used to knit. I say! If I got you some wool could you knit me a jumper?"

And so forth. A player (male or female) will hone in on something that they can use as a lever with their mark.

WR's OM was a professional with an advanced degree from a very prestigious university. He played up his purported Afro-Caribbean heritage in order to snare women. And has managed this a number of times. 

Of course once they have snared their mark guess what? No more Jamesons, they buy a jumper from the shops and all of a sudden, the Afro-Caribbean patois vanishes and they get down to their intended business, getting a spouse to cheat.


----------



## jim123

MattMatt said:


> How a player works:
> 
> "I am interested in the culture of Ireland."
> "Why, isn't dat odd! Moi family is from Oirland! Did I never tell ya that? Oh, look! Jamesons is my favourite drink, now!"
> 
> "I am really interested in knitting."
> "Well, that's an extraordinary coincidence. My dear late mother used to knit. I say! If I got you some wool could you knit me a jumper?"
> 
> And so forth. A player (male or female) will hone in on something that they can use as a lever with their mark.
> 
> WR's OM was a professional with an advanced degree from a very prestigious university. He played up his purported Afro-Caribbean heritage in order to snare women. And has managed this a number of times.
> 
> Of course once they have snared their mark guess what? No more Jamesons, they buy a jumper from the shops and all of a sudden, the Afro-Caribbean patois vanishes and they get down to their intended business, getting a spouse to cheat.


Are you sure who snared who? White Rose would have found another man like him. She wanted this and did not want it to end.


----------



## Mr Blunt

*



By Chris
Please, guys, help WR if you can.

Click to expand...

*


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: I cheated*

The problem is I don't think WS really wants our help. And if she's still trickle truthing Chris (and us) will any advice she receives here matter?


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By bfree
> The problem is I don't think WS really wants our help. And if she's still trickle truthing Chris (and us) will any advice she receives here matter?


You may b right bfree. However we cannot b sure. Many people believe that she wants help or else how do we explain the over 500 posts on her thread?


----------



## GusPolinski

Mr Blunt said:


> You may b right bfree. However we cannot b sure. Many people believe that she wants help or else how do we explain the over 500 posts on her thread?


Dogpiling onto the trainwreck.


----------



## ConanHub

Mr Blunt said:


> You may b right bfree. However we cannot b sure. Many people believe that she wants help or else how do we explain the over 500 posts on her thread?


You can lead a horse to water......


----------



## manticore

White Rose said:


> i'm not sure, of trying to get other man away from his GF. I didn't waste any time crying after it finished.


Maybe the best for you is contact for this medium menbers that are FWS in a sucessfully reconcilation and follow the advices that will include 100% honesty and transparency no matters what, it seems for what chris is sharing that you keep trying to hide the ugly true minimizing it and covering, what happened back them, and i am sure that is not just to him but even to us right now.

I have noticed that in many of your posts you try to minimize now your realtionship with the OM as if you had no real feelings towards him, it didn't matter that much once it ended to you, you don't hold grudge against him or dedicated any thought even in retaliation against him because that is what the OM does fo hoby, obviously for chris all of these does not match with what he remembers, if he is saying you had a 40 minutes conversation with him, you keep trying to coantact him for 6 weeks while he did not answer you, and all of these just proves him that he can not trust you.

maybe you think that, telling him this is better than telling him that "yes you were pinning for him until you realized the OM was just for the fun there" but as long as he detects there is lies in your story even if you think the ugly truth will harm more any chance you have, then he will never be comfortable with you.

and I must say is the same for many users here, is worth to note that even some of the users pro reconcilation have expresed that they don't feel you are being sincere and are not supporting your R, you have to understand that many of us have years here and others have gone throught the bitter experience themselves and they can dicern between sincere remorse and damage control.



White Rose said:


> Yes, he said it was the only way he could get out of the marriage once he cheated. I thought it was a fresh start but he just didn't like not being married to someone he lived with.



you want a fresh start, but there can not be a real fresh start until the ugly past have a its clousure which means the BS have everything he needs from the WS to make peace with what happened, we have user whose wife affair of more than 20 years ago is still affecting him because she refuse to give him all the datails, and he will never have the peace under those circumstances


----------



## imjustwatching

you said I was attracted to him because he was well built , then i was attracted to him because of his culture , So which one was it make up your mind ...


----------



## imjustwatching

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Yeah WR, I know what you mean. Women always have sex with an OM for 2.5 years, even though they didn't like it as much as having sex with their Husbands...
> 
> Happens all the time.


Exaaactly  and she said her husband doesn't believe the sex wasn't good. No sh*t ?


----------



## NoChoice

WR,
Until you can be honest with yourself you will never find help here or anywhere. Lies are fiction and any of us here can weave a tale of action and intrigue but it bears no resemblance to reality. We can give you all sorts of advice but it will be of no useful purpose since it is not based on your real life feelings, motivations and actions. The truth must first come from you before anything of real merit can come from us.


----------



## MattMatt

jim123 said:


> Are you sure who snared who? White Rose would have found another man like him. She wanted this and did not want it to end.


In fairness, that is conjecture.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

I agree Mr Blunt. Too many people reaching for their 'Practical Witch Burning' handbooks at the moment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## G.J.

Originally Posted by As'laDain View Post 
thank you. i just read it. 

*so, WR, why do you lie about such things?*



As'laDain said:


> may seem like a dumb question to you, but your not the one who needs to answer it...
> 
> it needs to be stated and acknowledged by the person lying.


wasn't intended to say *you* asked a dumb question but to show that WR was the dumb person for lying at this stage

Sorry if you misunderstood where icon was aimed at


----------



## Suspecting2014

IMO, the only explanation to why WR keeps lying is that there are so much about the affair and/or something going on...

Maybe previous o posteriors Affairs, more that OM, other sexual activities involving more people, ect.

WR, Do you realize that keeping lying leads Chris to unleash his imagination about what happened and it keeps him away.

Do yourealize that every lie is one more step away you push Chris?

You should come clean about everyhitng, just let it out, this is your last chance. Understand that even if you confess something new or disturbing you get a better chance than in this moment.


----------



## G.J.

WR Just be honest and no lies with Chriss *its that's easy* if you want to have any chance for R


----------



## MattMatt

It is possible that for reasons that are clearly obvious to anyone here, Chris may well have gone into a state of hyper-vigilance in which the victim starts from the base line that the other person, based on previous experience, must be lying.

What might be automatically considered to be a lie could be a lie or it might be a failure of memory, a difference caused by the same effect that means people who witness an accident each see a different accident.

Or shame. People sometimes can't recall something because to do so shames them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

ConanHub said:


> You can lead a horse to water......


...but you can't make it _think_.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: I cheated*



MattMatt said:


> It is possible that for reasons that are clearly obvious to anyone here, Chris may well have gone into a state of hyper-vigilance in which the victim starts from the base line that the other person, based on previous experience, must be lying.
> 
> What might be automatically considered to be a lie could be a lie or it might be a failure of memory, a difference caused by the same effect that means people who witness an accident each see a different accident.
> 
> Or shame. People sometimes can't recall something because to do so shames them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Shame is a selfish emotion. Using it as an excuse to abdicate responsibility is not conducive to a successful reconciliation.


----------



## MattMatt

bfree said:


> Shame is a selfish emotion. Using it as an excuse to abdicate responsibility is not conducive to a successful reconciliation.


Or it can help us to not wander of the path, again?

Shame, in this context, needs to be addressed in counselling sessions and worked with and through.


----------



## jim123

We can help and support positive steps.

We can help through brutal honesty.

We can not help two years of inaction and lies.

White Rose needs to be honest with herself first then Chris. Time for all the truth.


----------



## jim123

Interesting that Chris posted to help White Rose.

Many of the WW who have come here came to help the BH not themselves.

By looking to help Chris, WR will find empathy. Once WR finds empathy, we can help her.


----------



## sammy3

Shame may be holding her back. She has hurt Chris so much already, it probably sicken her that with holding by omission makes it easier. 

~sammy


----------



## jim123

MattMatt said:


> Or it can help us to not wander of the path, again?
> 
> Shame, in this context, needs to be addressed in counselling sessions and worked with and through.


We have to be careful not to reinforce bad behavior either. If White Rose wants to R she need to put Chris before her. 

She has a choice of her "shame" or healing Chris. I do not think it is shame. Chris is just second.

Most WS are very good at excuses and they do not need help from others. This is proving to be a deal breaker for Chris so it needs to be fixed.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Mr. Blunt
> You may b right bfree. However we cannot b sure. Many people believe that she wants help or else how do we explain the over 500 posts on her thread?
> 
> By Conan
> You can lead a horse to water.....



You are so right Conan! Only ACTIONS will tell if she really wants help or not. For me I am waiting to see what ACTIONS she has taken on getting her lying under control. If she does nothing or very little on this very important issue with Chris then I will be convinced that you are right. I wonder if she is going to at least answer my previous post reprinted below.



> What have you done to get better in this area and what is your plan for the future in you improving in your lying?



If WR does take strong ACTIONS to help herself and Chris then maybe we here at TAM can help her some more. We have already hit her with the bold truth about what she has done and that is a starting point. However, I do not know if we keep blasting away at her character if that is going to help her. A good many of the 500+ posts have done a good job of presenting the disgusting great ugly of what she did for the last 2-3 years. 

*SHE NOW NEEDS TO TAKE POSITIVE ACTIONS or she is just playing games and/or is a weakling that is going to have a very dissatisfied life.*


----------



## As'laDain

i kinda wish she would post more often... not much we can do for her if she is going to close herself off. thats the kind of behavior that...

well, you all know.


----------



## MattMatt

As'laDain said:


> i kinda wish she would post more often... not much we can do for her if she is going to close herself off. thats the kind of behavior that...
> 
> well, you all know.


But we need to discourage snide attacks on White Rose and also snide attacks on Chris, both of which have been seen.

That kind of stuff helps no one.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: I cheated*



MattMatt said:


> But we need to discourage snide attacks on White Rose and also snide attacks on Chris, both of which have been seen.
> 
> That kind of stuff helps no one.


I'm sorry Matt but I don't agree. No, I do not condone attacks against anyone here on TAM whether they be the BS or the WS. But sometimes in order to reach the summit you need to crawl through the mud first. Other WS's have weathered the storm and found redemption, or at least they increased their knowledge and strength. Any anguish they endure here pales in comparison to the destruction they've reeked on their spouse and children. The truth is that Rose has not been subjected to any undue harassment on this thread. There have been some wholly appropriate comments that needed to be said. Just think about how the military hardens and strengthens it's soldiers in order to prepare for battle. The world is a hard place and one needs strength and resolve in order to combat all the threats to our fidelity we are presented with on a daily basis. I think TAM serves a useful purpose in helping to break down and rebuild those that have already shown a propensity to stray.


----------



## jim123

bfree said:


> I'm sorry Matt but I don't agree. No, I do not condone attacks against anyone here on TAM whether they be the BS or the WS. But sometimes in order to reach the summit you need to crawl through the mud first. Other WS's have weathered the storm and found redemption, or at least they increased their knowledge and strength. Any anguish they endure here pales in comparison to the destruction they've reeked on their spouse and children. The truth is that Rose has not been subjected to any undue harassment on this thread. There have been some wholly appropriate comments that needed to be said. Just think about how the military hardens and strengthens it's soldiers in order to prepare for battle. The world is a hard place and one needs strength and resolve in order to combat all the threats to our fidelity we are presented with on a daily basis. I think TAM serves a useful purpose in helping to break down and rebuild those that have already shown a propensity to stray.


I go back and forth on this. EI said not one of the 2 x 4's helped.

The problem is I am not sure of WR's commitment to the M and whether she is on the same page. 

There appears to be so much missing.


----------



## MattMatt

bfree said:


> I'm sorry Matt but I don't agree. No, I do not condone attacks against anyone here on TAM whether they be the BS or the WS. But sometimes in order to reach the summit you need to crawl through the mud first. Other WS's have weathered the storm and found redemption, or at least they increased their knowledge and strength. Any anguish they endure here pales in comparison to the destruction they've reeked on their spouse and children. The truth is that Rose has not been subjected to any undue harassment on this thread. There have been some wholly appropriate comments that needed to be said. Just think about how the military hardens and strengthens it's soldiers in order to prepare for battle. The world is a hard place and one needs strength and resolve in order to combat all the threats to our fidelity we are presented with on a daily basis. I think TAM serves a useful purpose in helping to break down and rebuild those that have already shown a propensity to stray.


Piling in. Doesn't help. Both White Rose and Chris have been vilified of late.

Two examples of ther kind of helpful piling in:-

"Hey! White Rose you cheated!" (Actually, there's no special prize for stating the bleedin' obvious.)

"Hey! Chris! If you don't divorce White Rose, you are her cuckold, yeah?" (Talk about wrong, inappropriate and kicking a man when he is down.)


----------



## bfree

Admittedly I haven't read every post in this thread but I really don't recall those two comments being made. As for piling on, eh. That's bound to happen on a forum such as this. As long as the comments are respectful and the posters are offering their unbiased opinions I don't see the problem. From what I've seen while although the posts have been similar in nature there are slight differences that make each comment unique and valuable in its own way.


----------



## ConanHub

jim123 said:


> I go back and forth on this. EI said not one of the 2 x 4's helped.
> 
> The problem is I am not sure of WR's commitment to the M and whether she is on the same page.
> 
> There appears to be so much missing.


Not everyone is EI and the majority of entitled or fog ridden need some very hard and cold reality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

ConanHub said:


> Not everyone is EI and the majority of entitled or fog ridden need some very hard and cold reality.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is no longer fog. OM dumped her when Chris confronted.

My guess the phone call Chris is talking about was her last attempt to have OM commit to her. After that Plan B kicked in which is Chris.

White Rose knows reality, she is the only one.


----------



## ThePheonix

G.J. said:


> WR Just be honest and no lies with Chriss *its that's easy* if you want to have any chance for R


I think before anything WR does to foster a reconciliation, Chris needs to really, really decide if he can live with a woman that not only F'd around for a long time but rubbed salt in his wounds along the journey. 
At any rate, I can surmise why WR in interested in reconciling. She pushing fifty and starting over is usually tougher on women. She has good reason to now bite the bullet and settle down. 
Most guys Chris's age can land a girl in mid thirties, (which I highly recommend). So the question I ask is what's in it for Chris that he can't replace and be better off with a newer and undamaged relationship?


----------



## ConanHub

jim123 said:


> There is no longer fog. OM dumped her when Chris confronted.
> 
> My guess the phone call Chris is talking about was her last attempt to have OM commit to her. After that Plan B kicked in which is Chris.
> 
> White Rose knows reality, she is the only one.


Just some examples. WR is most certainly not ok or ready for any relationship right now. She does need to figure it out. From her posts, she still does not seem to grasp the reality of the situation. 

She has certainly not put out the effort of heavy lifting that shows true remorse. Which is why she is here now.

If she does not figure out that she needs to dynamically transform herself she is doomed to continue wallowing in one form of destructive behavior or another.


----------



## jim123

ConanHub said:


> Just some examples. WR is most certainly not ok or ready for any relationship right now. She does need to figure it out. From her posts, she still does not seem to grasp the reality of the situation.
> 
> She has certainly not put out the effort of heavy lifting that shows true remorse. Which is why she is here now.
> 
> If she does not figure out that she needs to dynamically transform herself she is doomed to continue wallowing in one form of destructive behavior or another.



She never thought he would leave. She has until now been in control.


----------



## ConanHub

jim123 said:


> She never thought he would leave. She has until now been in control.


Definitely agree with you there!


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Jim
> I go back and forth on this. EI said not one of the 2 x 4's helped.
> The problem is I am not sure of WR's commitment to the M and whether she is on the same page.
> There appears to be so much missing.


I do not think that anyone is sure of WR or Chris’s commitment to R.
As far as WR is concerned I think that the only way anyone is going to know about her commitment is by seeing what ACTIONS she takes for the next few years.



> By Chris
> I have told WR from day one that she needs to heal herself before we could heal


For Chris, well he is not sure of his ability to go back to WR. How much he can get past the anger and other emotional issues will be the determining factor. Also, the fact that he is involved with another woman adds more complication to the R.

Both WR and Chris are not real optimistic about the R occurring or working.

One thing that I see is that Chris does still care for WR. The reason that I say that is that Chris has on more than one occasion asked us to help WR and has even taken up for her a little. See Chris’s quotes below. That reminds me of B1 when EI was first on TAM B1 would take up for her and even ask TAM to help EI. 



> By Chris
> Please, guys, help WR if you can.
> 
> Thanks again to all of you for your immensely kind comments and please don't be too hard on White Rose.
> 
> In my mind, the whole thing is "too little too late" but at least she is trying and I would ask that you help her even if only to understand how she might help hersel


f

I Hope that WR realizes how important it is for her to prove her words by her actions. She can start by showing Chris what actions she has taken on one of the most important issues with Chris; WR lying.




> By Chris
> 
> Just last night there was an astounding example of her, yet again, lying to me when we both knew she was lying.
> 
> The fact that she is still *lying is an enormously bad sign to me*, but she needs help. Hence why she is here and why she needs that counselling.



*ACTIONS, ACTIONS, ACTIONS, for a long time tell a lot of truth; words and emotions can wind up being empt*y!


----------



## ThePheonix

ConanHub said:


> She has certainly not put out the effort of heavy lifting that shows true remorse.


I have said many times that a woman's actions don't lie while men typically don't "listen" to her actions. She not doing heavy lifting and showing true remorse because its not what she feels (albeit she may say it).


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Admittedly I haven't read every post in this thread but I really don't recall those two comments being made. As for piling on, eh. That's bound to happen on a forum such as this. As long as the comments are respectful and the posters are offering their unbiased opinions I don't see the problem. From what I've seen while although the posts have been similar in nature there are slight differences that make each comment unique and valuable in its own way.


The problem is, Bfree, that a lot of posters make snide and sh*tty comments, then when they are called on it, they play the "tough love" card, to excuse their comments. Just like saying that the cheating is the WS's fault, excuses the BS from contributing to a crappy marriage. How many times does a WS deserve to be verbally whipped?


----------



## Augusto

I would hate to think that this is over but Chris sounds angry. I can only imagine how he unloaded on his wife.


----------



## Chris989

iwontliedown said:


> I seriously don't know why you are so hell bent on acting as cupid on behalf of this disgusting woman


Because Mattmatt is a decent man and *no one* is beyond redemption.

If any one of us is, then we all are.


----------



## stevend1961

I do not mean to be disrespectful towards you , but this is what you shouldve done, if you were not happy in the union, and didnt want to be with the current husband , then get the divorce first. The hurt , the pain you the mistrust you have bestowed upon this man is not fair, and not appropriate in anyway. And personaly it makes you look bad for doing so. 
This husband you have cheated on will now and forever have trust issues with all women whom ever he might be with. 
One of the most painful things another human being can do to another, Been on the recieving end of that pain. 
So maybe next time think aliitle about whom gets hurt and how much they get hurt by what you say and or what you do.


----------



## stevend1961

I agree with you, all of the people i had had serious relationships with , every stinking one had been unfaithful. Two i didnt find out until they were gone, and the last one well she got busted. 
To quote her" everything i did with him i wanted to do with you , everything i said to him I wanted to say to you" and my response was this, " I was here , in the same room, the same bed, for all the time we have been married. You defiled our relationship , our love, and didnt give me half of the chances you gave this complete stranger. 
So I dont agree that you wanted to say these things to me, I was not unapproachable, nor was I unaffectionate, and I did my best for you , gave you the best, wrote love poems, songs for you, and your going to play that card. More importantly I remained faithful to our vows, and to you, not looking to any others for my needs except to you. but you decieved me, you decieved the other man, i dont hold him responsible, but i hold you in his stead. 
I tried to reconcile with her , and for two whole years I hated her, it was always there , the affair like an elephant in the living room. and I couldn't get past it. The day that elephant left the house was the day she left.


----------



## Suspecting2014

WR, 

I am trying to undertand why you keep lying while your whole word in tearing down.

Are you in love with OM?

You already answer that you love Crhis, but are you in love with him?


----------



## MattMatt

iwontliedown said:


> I seriously don't know why you are so hell bent on acting as cupid on behalf of this disgusting woman


I am not. I want to help two people on TAM to move forward in the best possible way to make sure they can be in a position to get back together or divorce but to be able to be the best co-parents that they can be, no matter what decision they come to about their marriage.

Not meaning to be rude, but TAM is real life, not a fantasy site. If we can't respect other posters then maybe some of us need to consider if TAM is really where we should be?

Yes, 90%+ of us here have been hurt by the one person in the world who we should have been able to rely on. What we should try to guard against is taking our angst and heartbreak out on the WS or formerly WS of some other person on TAM. They aren't the one who hurt us. Not to say we shouldn't support their BS, because we should.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## seasalt

Chris,

I try always to respond to the original poster to avoid protracted thread jacks but since you choose to particapte in your wife's thread here's a post for you.

I'm not a black man but your wife's continued attachment to the attraction of "the black culture" is still galling to me. She was involved with the thug she chose for 2 1/2 years. Did she ever celebrate Kwanzaa? Did she listen to arias by Marion Anderson or Catherine Battles? Did she watch presentatins of "Roots", "Porgy and Bess" or "The Lion King"? Somehow I think not. Her mind was in a sewer for the years before she took her body there for a swim and the stink won't leave her while she refuses to acknowledge her shameful behavior as her own.

I could't believe or understand how you divorced her and remained in her presence after what transpired. It is also tough to figure how you remarried without resolving your difficulties with her actions and lies and questionable character. At 49 years old it may be easy to point to a history with her but harder to call it, when the accounts are tallied, a worthwhile one.

If your saga, now three years running, continues it can only be ascribed to it being what you want for your life.

Seasalt


----------



## Chris989

seasalt said:


> Chris,
> 
> I try always to respond to the original poster to avoid protracted thread jacks but since you choose to particapte in your wife's thread here's a post for you.
> 
> I'm not a black man but your wife's continued attachment to the attraction of "the black culture" is still galling to me. She was involved with the thug she chose for 2 1/2 years. Did she ever celebrate Kwanzaa? Did she listen to arias by Marion Anderson or Catherine Battles? Did she watch presentatins of "Roots", "Porgy and Bess" or "The Lion King"? Somehow I think not. Her mind was in a sewer for the years before she took her body there for a swim and the stink won't leave her while she refuses to acknowledge her shameful behavior as her own.
> 
> I could't believe or understand how you divorced her and remained in her presence after what transpired. It is also tough to figure how you remarried without resolving your difficulties with her actions and lies and questionable character. At 49 years old it may be easy to point to a history with her but harder to call it, when the accounts are tallied, a worthwhile one.
> 
> If your saga, now three years running, continues it can only be ascribed to it being what you want for your life.
> 
> Seasalt


I already stated several times that their view of black culture was watching Bob Marley on MTV then screwing on the sofa.

I'm infinitely better educated about "black issues" from a cultural and political standpoint because I've taken the time to read many books on the subject and take an active interest in social issues generally. I've been to Africa, I am active in supporting charities there. This has nothing to do with WR and she doesn't know half of the stuff I do take part in, but I'm interested in people generally, not an idea propogated by a deeply cynical media.

Her obsession with "black culture" was the modern media gangsta boy version. The supposed "hard men" (who hide from white guys at their door) who like shooting each other and call each other the N word - mixed in with some dreadlocks, a far away look and talking about "home" and "roots" meaning the slums of Barbados, which their own families abandoned for a better life in a different culture a generation ago.

Meh. this should be on my thread, not hers but there it is.


----------



## MattMatt

Roots of the OM is probably more Cheadle Hulme, Cheshire, rather than Kingston, Jamaica.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

I think all this talk about the OM's culture is just horse hockey. The fact is that she was attracted to this "bad boy" and found him interesting. If he were Chinese she would have been studying the sayings of Confucius and reading up on Mao Zedong. If someone wants to cheat they'll find excuses to do so.


----------



## MattMatt

bfree said:


> I think all this talk about the OM's culture is just horse hockey. The fact is that she was attracted to this "bad boy" and found him interesting. If he were Chinese she would have been studying the sayings of Confucius and reading up on Mao Zedong. If someone wants to cheat they'll find excuses to do so.


And yes, the player will tune into some flaw some desire that someone has to get into bed.

Jeez!  I just realised that this happened to me! OW used our mutual love of Startrek: Voyager as a snare. Sadly it worked. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: I cheated*



MattMatt said:


> And yes, the player will tune into some flaw some desire that someone has to get into bed.
> 
> Jeez!  I just realised that this happened to me! OW used our mutual love of Startrek: Voyager as a snare. Sadly it worked.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


7 of 9 was pretty hot.


----------



## MattMatt

bfree said:


> 7 of 9 was pretty hot.


True. But Captain Janeway did it for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: I cheated*



MattMatt said:


> True. But Captain Janeway did it for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, that gravely smoker's voice does every time. 

I always wondered where else 7 of 9 had Borg implants? Yowzah!


----------



## vellocet

imjustwatching said:


> The sex was not good yet you come back for sex every time ? and you are surprised because he doesn't believe this facts ? really ??


That's what I was thinking.




> I'm really sorry if i sound harsh but you did make a cuckold of your husband and you can't even deny the hard facts..
> 
> -has a bigger penis than your husband


And Chris is probably thinking this was the driving factor in her choice of her affair partner, which is why he doesn't believe her.



> -did things in bed for him that you wouldn't accept to do with your husband


And this is another. This tells Chris that she wasn't as excited about sex with him as she was with her affair partner. Giving something up to an OM that she wouldn't do with her H? That's a big problem.

And being a big thread, I didn't read what she did with OM that she didn't do with Chris, so I'm just going by what you are saying here.


----------



## MattMatt

Sex with an AP is always hotter than with your spouse.

Why? Because it is different and you always know that deep down, it is WRONG.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf

Which is why it's so difficult to trust again. The WS knows this first hand. It's no longer a fantasy that seems better than reality. It became reality. If the WS had a "good" experience and was never caught and there were no mind changing life altering experiences, it's really tough to believe they can change and it will never happen again. All it would take is getting pissed off and not getting your way to make a person figure, "I'll fix his/her ass". Makes sense to me when I consider what my ex complained about after she left. she didn't complain as much because she didn't want to seem like a complainer. Sure, to some extent. But, mainly, she was hurting me behind my back and getting even and satisfaction out of it. She finally left when she figured she might as well be single, as often as it was happening. Plus, she figured with the options opening up in her "single" life, she could easily find someone better. It doesn't work that way for some. They end up putting all their eggs in one basket and coming back to find they are found out and no longer desired.


----------



## vellocet

Chris989 said:


> Her obsession with "black culture" was the modern media gangsta boy version.


Well if she is attracted to thugs, let them have her.

Move on to greener pastures.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted *by iwontliedow*n
> I seriously don't know why you are so hell bent on acting as cupid on behalf of this disgusting woman
> 
> *By Chris*
> Because Mattmatt is a decent man and no one is beyond redemption.
> 
> If any one of us is, then we all are.


Chris, WR, and all of us want a chance redemption. Chris and WR have decided to do some things that have caused permanent damage to each other’s future relationship with each other. *They and Matt and others want to look at the possible positive sides of this situation and concentrate on that more than how “DISGUSTING” WR is.*


*What good does it do to keep hammering away that what WR did or what Chris did is disgusting?* Would some of you be satisfied if Chris hated WR and inflicted as much pain as you would like on this “disgusting woman”? Chris and WR are not beyond redemption and that is more positive than focusing on and rehashing the disgust that we have already talked about for many posts.

*The actions or lack of actions that Chris and WR take from now on will affect their life either positive or negative.* I might also add that their actions will also affect their children to some degree. I would hope that we would also include some positive posts to go along with some helpful but hurtful truths.

It has been made clear that Chris and WR want us to help them and rehashing the disgust that we have for either of them is only going to tear them down. I know that the hard helpful truths must be presented to them but haven’t we done that enough with these hundreds and hundreds of posts?


I have been trying to get WR to take actions to get better at telling the truth. *Her continuing lies are really upsetting to Chris and if she gets better then they both get better and probably the children also!!*


----------



## imjustwatching

vellocet said:


> And being a big thread, I didn't read what she did with OM that she didn't do with Chris, so I'm just going by what you are saying here.


if i remember correctly i think she swallowed the OM SEMEN . .. personally i would never get over this ...
- and chris wrote here months ago how he was hurt by his wife doing things in bed for the OM that she would never do with him and been very sexual with the OM ....


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Hmm, I bet if she had it her way, Chris would be the loyal spouse at home, spending his resources on her. She would not want any other woman taking Chris away, because he is the stability. 

She wants excitement from her affair, and the sex was probably better with the OM. She was distant because she did not have enough time and energy to maintain both. So when Chris drew away, she redirected her energy towards him again, and when things were stable, she seeked out the OM again, to get the best of both worlds. Her actions only consider herself, and it is selfish. She thought she could probably keep Chris hook, while she looked for a mate. 

her lying is just a way to deflect and avoid. It is how she copes. This was probably taught behavior.

Chris is not someone she is sexually attracted too, but he does have his qualities she likes. So instead of being honest, she seeked something she was attracted too, and voila.

In terms of biology, she seek genetic genes she felt that were superior, and she wants to pass on those genes to her children. Chris would make a great surrogate father type, and is more suited for the father role of her children. Chris is probably more successful, more stable, and has great qualities that make him a great father type. The Om is probably more shallow, narcissistic, and physically is superior.

This is my best guess from the info I have inferred.


----------



## ThePheonix

MattMatt said:


> And yes, the player will tune into some flaw some desire that someone has to get into bed.


Matt I hate to say it Dawg, but you're giving too much credence to the abilities of the player to talk their way into and enter places that's normally off limits. Are you sure your position doesn't explain and mollify your past "situation". I wasn't exactly a player because for all intents and purposes, I worked through an "agent". But I'm familiar with a lot of the techniques. Players, my man, are like they say about vampires; they don't go where they are not invited. Make no mistake about it.



MattMatt said:


> Jeez!  I just realised that this happened to me! OW used our mutual love of Startrek: Voyager as a snare. Sadly it worked.


I've got to add this:

Give us a break about how bad you feel for nailing a little strange poon my man. We're guys. We know better. And "Voyager as a snare". I've heard it called a lot of "pet" names but I've never heard it called that before.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Now add in any erroneous beliefs she has about relationships and ses. Then add in that she was most likely in a period of her life where her chemicals in her body were increasing her desire for sex to a point that she never felt before and helped create those desires in her. The final decision is still her's to make and she did as she saw fit. Now, those biological changes have run their course, and she is less interested in the OM, although she cannot deny her attraction. She can't help that. We all have to settle and the issue is, she may not find someone as easily, now that she doesn't have that animal drive she had before. So, she's willing to wait for Chris to change his mind, using her experiences with the other man to attract his sexual desires and her years of "loyalty" to entice his desires of needing to be taken care of as he gets older. 

Hell, she's a different woman now. That's true to some extent. It really is just a fact of life and age. Just a guess.


----------



## vellocet

imjustwatching said:


> if i remember correctly i think she swallowed the OM SEMEN . .. personally i would never get over this ....


Neither would I. Not that I need any woman to do that, but why the OM and not Chris?


----------



## Clay2013

Its amazing how well this thread has grown without her being here  

At least we know Chris is doing much better. Good for him

Clay


----------



## As'laDain

WR, if you can find the courage to post here, you can find the courage to do anything. 

Do you feel that you have to protect chris' feelings? Or are you afraid to admit fault? I have to believe it's not the latter, since you posted here to begin with and accepted fault for your actions. Do you now try to avoid hurting him, even if you have to lie in order to do it?

What are your thoughts on this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## imjustwatching

vellocet said:


> Neither would I. Not that I need any woman to do that, but why the OM and not Chris?


Well just to show who is plan B in the situation...


----------



## RV9

MattMatt said:


> Sex with an AP is always hotter than with your spouse.
> 
> Why? Because it is different and you always know that deep down, it is WRONG.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Spouse is always the plan B.


----------



## Squeakr

RV9 said:


> Spouse is always the plan B.


Not always. Sometimes the spouse is out of the picture completely, as far as the WS is concerned, and it is an exit A. They are just too afraid to do the right thing, so they force the issue to make the BS decide the correct course of action.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Squeakr said:


> RV9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Spouse is always the plan B.
> 
> 
> 
> Not always. Sometimes the spouse is out of the picture completely, as far as the WS is concerned, and it is an exit A. They are just too afraid to do the right thing, so they force the issue to make the BS decide the correct course of action.
Click to expand...

To keep OM interested, also to make him likes her morethan his GF


----------



## Healer

3putt said:


> I was thinking in terms of the "Anyone can have an affair" thread. Seemed like that question could've have been asked to make a 'minor' point there. A point I happen to agree with, BTW.


"Anyone can have an affair".

That line always makes me LOL.


----------



## Healer

To the OP - your husband is at the point I was right before I finally decided I could never forgive my now ex-wife for what she did. I divorced her. I too tried my hardest to reconcile and get past it - but simply could not.

The length of your affair, your lack of ability to do what he needed you to for him to heal, and the fact you went BACK to this POS, make me think your marriage is over. That is, if your husband has even a modicum of self respect and integrity.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

imjustwatching said:


> The sex was not good yet you come back for sex every time ? and you are surprised because he doesn't believe this facts ? really ??
> I'm really sorry if i sound harsh but you did make a cuckold of your husband and you can't even deny the hard facts..
> - he was black
> -has a bigger penis than your husband
> -did things in bed for him that you wouldn't accept to do with your husband


Having an orgasm for a woman is not about great sex, it's about how you feel, about the intimacy and emotion, great sex helps but is not essential and I never said sex was bad just soul less. I enjoyed being with the OM because it was an escape.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Squeakr said:


> Did he ever see any correspondence between you two where you remarked about how great it was. I ask as I had the same response with my STBXW where she said that it wasn't that good and she did it because she felt connected to them and owed them that (great what does that say about me as she NEVER felt that she owed it to me???). However in her email exchanges she talks about the "greatest orgasms she has ever had" and that "no one has ever done that for her like he has"! How does one read this and see otherwise no matter what they are telling. The truth is in there somewhere and since I wasn't getting it, which do you think is more true?? I know my thoughts on this.


No I don't think so.


----------



## S&W500

White Rose said:


> Having an orgasm for a woman is not about great sex, it's about how you feel, about the intimacy and emotion, great sex helps but is not essential and I never said sex was bad just soul less. I enjoyed being with the OM because it was an escape.


Yep, that's what my wife said...almost word-for-word.


----------



## NoChoice

White Rose said:


> Having an orgasm for a woman is not about great sex, it's about how you feel, about the intimacy and emotion, great sex helps but is not essential and I never said sex was bad just soul less. I enjoyed being with the OM because it was an escape.


Are you happy with where your "escape" tunnel has deposited you? The shackles are gone, you are now free.


----------



## Squeakr

White Rose said:


> No I don't think so.


Might be something you'd want to find out. There are things that you might need to fix that you are not even aware of because of this.


----------



## Clay2013

I do agree you are free now. I would focus on healing you. Spending lots of time with your kids. They are going to need both parents during this transition. Chris stated you were still lieing to him. I hope you can work that out but I know it does not always work that way. My xW cheated on me over the course of our ten year marriage and she still lies to this day. I think some people are just broke and no matter how much you want to help them and fix them you just can not. Well I hope you and Chris just focus on the kids now. 


Clay


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

farsidejunky said:


> WR:
> 
> What did you lie about last night?


Chris asked me about the last telephone conversation I had with the OM, he asked what I said to him. I couldn't remember but I was worried about saying so as if I can't remember he always says it is convenient for me. Instead I said I talked about work because I always talked about work and I knew that was correct, he then said just work and I panicked because I couldn't remember and said yes, he asked again and I said yes and he then said I was lying. He said so was it a lie last time or this time. I couldn't remember until he said what I'd said and that jogged my mind. He asked me why I said work and I said well I did talk about work, I could only remember because we had some special work on at the time. I had forgotten that conversation until he told me what I said the last time. Chris then said why did you lie when you know this is so important to me, he said why didn't you say just give me a minute, I need to think carefully about this. I should just have said I can't remember because I couldn't. I knew there was some work but I couldn't remember the rest. Chris said I hadn't changed and it was a big problem for him. He asked me why I would lie about something so unimportant. He said my brother will look him in the face and lie, believing it himself. He said he thought I was the same and I needed help. I didn't want to get it wrong and that's why I said work, because I knew that was correct but couldn't remember the rest and didn't want it to look like I had lied last time.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

White Rose said:


> Chris asked me about the last telephone conversation I had with the OM, he asked what I said to him. I couldn't remember but I was worried about saying so as if I can't remember he always says it is convenient for me. Instead I said I talked about work because I always talked about work and I knew that was correct, he then said just work and I panicked because I couldn't remember and said yes, he asked again and I said yes and he then said I was lying. He said so was it a lie last time or this time. I couldn't remember until he said what I'd said and that jogged my mind. He asked me why I said work and I said well I did talk about work, I could only remember because we had some special work on at the time. I had forgotten that conversation until he told me what I said the last time. Chris then said why did you lie when you know this is so important to me, he said why didn't you say just give me a minute, I need to think carefully about this. I should just have said I can't remember because I couldn't. I knew there was some work but I couldn't remember the rest. Chris said I hadn't changed and it was a big problem for him. He asked me why I would lie about something so unimportant. He said my brother will look him in the face and lie, believing it himself. He said he thought I was the same and I needed help. I didn't want to get it wrong and that's why I said work, because I knew that was correct but couldn't remember the rest and didn't want it to look like I had lied last time.


Fear drove these answers... everyone of them.

Why were you scared...


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

bfree said:


> Chris, just read your last post here. I understand you would like to see WS get help, either here or in counseling. But have you noticed the infrequent nature of her posting pattern? Now there may be good reasons for this. She may be busy with the kids. She may be busy with work. Or she could not really want to post here because unlike a counselor people here do not pull punches. People here will call you out when they see bullsh!t. There are many former wayward spouses that find TAM a very valuable resource, especially when used in conjunction with counseling. But there are just as many if not more that just couldn't handle the brutal truth that they often find here. If your wife has a chronic problem with dishonesty she may be in the latter camp.


I admit this is difficult and the last time I was on I found it very tiring, I am also one week into seperation with upset children and not knowing what to do with myself. I really do want to use this site as a resource to uncover truth about myself as I feel very lost. There is an element of me doing this for Chris but it is for me also. I work 4 days until 9.00pm and get home at about 9.15 ish, then I catch up with the kids and other stuff like food and jobs. I'm not generally in the frame of mind to post until 10.30 ish and then it is not quality writing time so forgive the script.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

WR, you have kids to care for, protect your energy and take care of yourself. They need you.

How old are they?


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

NoChoice said:


> This is very troubling in that if this is still an ingrained behavior then how can any of us here know what is true and what is not? Our advice may be based on fiction. WR, you must first and foremost overcome this propensity to lie. Lies create fiction, truth creates reality. Fiction and reality are like matter and antimatter in that the do not mix well. However, unlike matter and antimatter, when truth and lies mix whats left is only truth because lies are not real.
> 
> Please consider this carefully because everything you do in your R, and your life in general for that matter, is contingent upon a solid foundation. Lies CANNOT build that foundation and therefore everything built on lies WILL crumble when exposed to truth. All of your efforts, even good efforts, when predicated on lies, will be of no value when it all crashes down. You must realize that one lie, even a tiny "white lie", can destroy a mountain of good work. I cannot make you see this but until you do your relationship with Chris, or anyone for that matter, will be tenuous at best. If your desire to R is sincere then you will have to speak the truth, always.


I agree, please look at the lie in question. I am going to continue anyway. Chris will be looking at this so if I lie to any of you I'm sure he will pull me about it so there is no mileage in it for me. I didn't really consider what I did a lie but I can see that I should have just said I couldn't remember which would have been truthful.


----------



## vellocet

When was the last time you had a conversation with the OM?


----------



## As'laDain

i agree with blossom. the responses were fear driven. 
but what is the fear?


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> thank you. i just read it.
> 
> so, WR, why do you lie about such things?


I didn't want to say i couldn't remember as it would look dodgy so I said work, which was not lying, however saying only work was because I knew there was other stuff but couldn't on the spot remember.


----------



## S&W500

Thing is, why would White Rose lie...on this, her thread, when pretty much it's a clear-cut case of her and Chris989's marriage being over? What's to be salvaged?

If she came out with _"Yep. I'm bang to rights: I'm well into black men, I thought the OM was a fit, well-built 'Bad-Boy' with a big hard c0ck so was great in bed and that's all that got me hooked on him"_....would the Forum be happy?
:scratchhead:

I think she's doing well given the severe cross-examinations here...


Disclaimer: I asked the above because WR/Chris' situation is almost identical to my own and yeah, I asked those questions and got those answers.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

oneMOreguy said:


> WR.......I actually think that an initial step might be to figure out why you are still lying about an affair that is already discovered?
> 
> -do you think you are protecting your husband from more pain in some odd sense?
> 
> -are you protecting yourself, meaning your ego or self-view?
> 
> -or are you lying in some attempt to convince your husband that you are not really worse than he already believes?
> 
> Please note that he seems very bright and has things pretty much figured out, and what he doesn't know he fills in with the worst possible options......... and your lies only make things worse............
> 
> you hurt him badly, and continue to do so by continuing your dishonesty. Makes no sense for him not to move on from someone, even someone he loves, who continues to hurt him.


I think all those reasons you gave.


----------



## NoChoice

White Rose said:


> Chris asked me about the last telephone conversation I had with the OM, he asked what I said to him. I couldn't remember but I was worried about saying so as if I can't remember he always says it is convenient for me. Instead I said I talked about work because I always talked about work and I knew that was correct, he then said just work and I panicked because I couldn't remember and said yes, he asked again and I said yes and he then said I was lying. He said so was it a lie last time or this time. I couldn't remember until he said what I'd said and that jogged my mind. He asked me why I said work and I said well I did talk about work, I could only remember because we had some special work on at the time. I had forgotten that conversation until he told me what I said the last time. Chris then said why did you lie when you know this is so important to me, he said why didn't you say just give me a minute, I need to think carefully about this. I should just have said I can't remember because I couldn't. I knew there was some work but I couldn't remember the rest. Chris said I hadn't changed and it was a big problem for him. He asked me why I would lie about something so unimportant. He said my brother will look him in the face and lie, believing it himself. He said he thought I was the same and I needed help. I didn't want to get it wrong and that's why I said work, because I knew that was correct but couldn't remember the rest and didn't want it to look like I had lied last time.


WR,
I will offer this advice for your consideration and I speak from first hand experience. Hearing "I don't know" is the same as hearing "I don't want you to know" to a BS. However, and this is huge to recognize, if and only if, "I don't know" is the ABSOLUTE truth then it should be spoken, if not, then another, more appropriate answer should be given. "I can only recall part of the conversation" or "allow me some time to see if I can recall what we talked about" or "I remember saying this or that but nothing else" but keep in mind that it must be ABSOLUTELY true. ANY lie can be found out, even if it wasn't malicious so it is critical to speak only the truth, no matter the consequences.

Speaking the truth EVERY TIME is the only way to establish your honesty and credibility.


----------



## Squeakr

White Rose said:


> I didn't want to say i couldn't remember as it would look dodgy so I said work, which was not lying, however saying only work was because I knew there was other stuff but couldn't on the spot remember.


How about telling the truth, along the lines of "I know I talked about work some and not sure the extent of that. I am also not sure about what else we discussed at this time as I am truly having trouble remembering the entire conversation." It might not sound the best but say it with meaning and directly and it is your answer, instead of lying and appearing to be hiding things yet again.

For some reason the WS just doesn't seem to grasp the concept of how the lies are sometimes worse than the actions.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Mr Blunt said:


> You may b right bfree. However we cannot b sure. Many people believe that she wants help or else how do we explain the over 500 posts on her thread?


I am interested in getting help here.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

hmmm getting totally ignored here... wonder why.


I'll just leave you with this for now...

Anytime you are learning new language skills it takes time, but during that time you can say "I am committed to learning to do better." That at least gives something to build on.


----------



## warlock07

Get help for what ? Your marriage ?


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Mr Blunt said:


> You are so right Conan! Only ACTIONS will tell if she really wants help or not. For me I am waiting to see what ACTIONS she has taken on getting her lying under control. If she does nothing or very little on this very important issue with Chris then I will be convinced that you are right. I wonder if she is going to at least answer my previous post reprinted below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If WR does take strong ACTIONS to help herself and Chris then maybe we here at TAM can help her some more. We have already hit her with the bold truth about what she has done and that is a starting point. However, I do not know if we keep blasting away at her character if that is going to help her. A good many of the 500+ posts have done a good job of presenting the disgusting great ugly of what she did for the last 2-3 years.
> 
> *SHE NOW NEEDS TO TAKE POSITIVE ACTIONS or she is just playing games and/or is a weakling that is going to have a very dissatisfied life.*


I don't really know how to start with all this. I don't think I believe my own lies. I lied within this area because of shame, which I feel acutely, selfish or not. I lied to make it not as bad for myself and I lied to try and spare his feelings but I think I now have to acknowledge that was to save my own skin. Can somebody read later about what I lied about the other night. In this instance I lied by omission because I couldn't remember and didn't want it to look like I was hiding something. I intend to talk about this in therapy. Contrary to what somebody said earlier I have not done this before or since and had never thought about until I met OM. Everyone sees people they find attractive but I was always committed to my marriage and family. I never got into positions that could lead to problems as I am very aware of this. I am not a flirt and not chatty around other men and do not encourage attention from men. Sorry went off the point a little there.


----------



## Jung_admirer

Mr Blunt said:


> White Rose
> 
> *What has transpired with you and Chris has caused permanent damage*. I am sure you already know this but maybe your hope that Chris will come back may happen. However, if Chris comes back then you will have to settle for less than a deep loving relationship because of the damage already done. You probably already know that also but at this point you are desperate and wanting Chris back at almost any cost. If Chris does come back then you will be very elated for a time but eventually the damage that has been done will affect your relationship so that you will probably not be real happy with what the relationship finally settles down to.
> 
> 
> There is some similarity in you and Chris’s situation and mine and my wife, however there are some differences also. In our case I divorced her and then we came back together. I made her prove her sincerity for over 4 years then remarried her. It has been over 20 years since D-day and we have improved our relationship in some areas. However, there are permanent damages that will never go away and therefore we will never have the deep all around love that was possible before the affair. I still have a degree of love for my wife but there is permanent damage that will never heal and that keeps us from having the deep all-encompassing love that we all dream of.
> 
> My wife is a good person that has many good qualities it is just that my admiration for her in certain areas is dead. We have built on other areas in our relationship and have a marriage that is average and above average at times. We will never have a great marriage.
> 
> 
> One of my main points in writing you this posts is so that you do not get an expectation that is not possible. Also, I hope that you take actions in your life so that you can be satisfied if you and Chris wind up just being friends or having an average marriage but not a great marriage. I know you may be satisfied with any positive relationship you get from Chris from what it is right now. However, you probably will not be satisfied with that that level of relationship in 10-20 years from now unless you know what level can be achieved and train yourself to be content with that level.
> 
> 
> As for you personally, aside from your relationship with Chris, you can improve in your self-acceptance and not be so negative about what your have done. You are a valuable person to your children and you should know that you can be a valuable person to yourself and maybe you already are.
> 
> As for your relationship with Chris you have made a series of horrible choices and you will pay for as you already have been paying for that. Being married to Chris or having a much better relationship with Chris is not your whole life. *You can still have a decent life but it will not include a deep loving relationship with Chris. You will do yourself a favor by starting to accept this truth.*
> 
> We have all made serious mistakes in life but we just have to accept the natural consequences and keep improving our lives. *You can still be a very valuable person to yourself, your children, and your grandchildren.* Just do not expect to have a deep loving relationship with Chris. You probably will not have a deep loving relationship with any man but then again you maybe an exception to the rule.
> 
> These are just my opinions and may not apply to you but having lived your scenario somewhat for over 20 years that is what I see. White Rose I hope that you improve yourself because you still have something to give but it is just that none of us wind up with 100% of our potential.
> *
> Life can be good at 80%-90%*
> 
> Blunt


Interesting post .. I wonder if someone from the fWS side (ex. EI or Mrs John Adams) would agree with your comments.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

jim123 said:


> She never thought he would leave. She has until now been in control.


I agree with that, I have been very arrogant thinking he wouldn't go and leave the kids. I do have control issues also. I have been a pretty bad person to live with for a long time. I have only begun to see this since the affair. I had always thought Chris was arrogant but it turns out I am. I have always tried to control situations to get my own way and not thought about others. I do believe though that I have started to put these things right. Acknowledging this has made it possible to try to put it right.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Suspecting2014 said:


> WR,
> 
> I am trying to undertand why you keep lying while your whole word in tearing down.
> 
> Are you in love with OM?
> 
> You already answer that you love Crhis, but are you in love with him?


No OM not in my thoughts at all. Yes Chris is in my thoughts.


----------



## sammy3

NoChoice said:


> WR,
> I will offer this advice for your consideration and I speak from first hand experience. Hearing "I don't know" is the same as hearing "I don't want you to know" to a BS. However, and this is huge to recognize, if and only if, "I don't know" is the ABSOLUTE truth then it should be spoken, if not, then another, more appropriate answer should be given. "I can only recall part of the conversation" or "allow me some time to see if I can recall what we talked about" or "I remember saying this or that but nothing else" but keep in mind that it must be ABSOLUTELY true. ANY lie can be found out, even if it wasn't malicious so it is critical to speak only the truth, no matter the consequences.
> 
> Speaking the truth EVERY TIME is the only way to establish your honesty and credibility.



I find this is true with any bs, in any kind of a relationship, being a friend, or new people that a bs may try to date in the future. A bs is and will always be on high alert, always sensitive, always triggered for misunderstanding, and always ready to read into things, even when there no reason to. 

I think WR is just too long down the road to turn around now, and it's seems easier for her to just keep walking,while letting Chris walk too. This is going to be a long road back, ...if. 

~sammy


----------



## Blossom Leigh

WR, do you have me on ignore?


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> WR, if you can find the courage to post here, you can find the courage to do anything.
> 
> Do you feel that you have to protect chris' feelings? Or are you afraid to admit fault? I have to believe it's not the latter, since you posted here to begin with and accepted fault for your actions. Do you now try to avoid hurting him, even if you have to lie in order to do it?
> 
> What are your thoughts on this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just want to get some help, I am afraid of admit fault but nor do I want to hurt Chris but a bit late for that. What do I need to find out that will help.


----------



## chaos

WR you may want to PM Regret214. She also had a long term affair. Though the outcome of her marriage is different than yours, I believe she may give you some good information on what you need for your personal recovery.

If you are interested, here is her story http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/51347-my-story-destruction-recovery-part-1-a.html


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Blossom Leigh said:


> Fear drove these answers... everyone of them.
> 
> Why were you scared...


Believe it or not I didn't want to get it wrong. I couldn't remember except I spoke about a large event at work that was of interest to us both, I didn't want him to think I was hiding anything. The last conversation I had forgotten. It was a long one, we talked work, he was fishing for things that we had done at our authority so he could duplicate it and look good . I also asked him why he led me on so much making out like his GF was not important to which he said I acted like a 16 year old, that is all I can remember but couldn't until Chris jogged my mind.


----------



## MattMatt

Blossom Leigh said:


> WR, do you have me on ignore?


If she did, how the heck do you think she would be able to respond to you? :scratchhead:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

White Rose said:


> Believe it or not I didn't want to get it wrong. I couldn't remember except I spoke about a large event at work that was of interest to us both, I didn't want him to think I was hiding anything. The last conversation I had forgotten. It was a long one, we talked work, he was fishing for things that we had done at our authority so he could duplicate it and look good . I also asked him why he led me on so much making out like his GF was not important to which he said I acted like a 16 year old, that is all I can remember but couldn't until Chris jogged my mind.


what did you fear if you got it wrong


----------



## Blossom Leigh

MattMatt said:


> If she did, how the heck do you think she would be able to respond to you? :scratchhead:


I figured someone would end up asking her for me or quoting me like you did and she would see it


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

vellocet said:


> When was the last time you had a conversation with the OM?


2 1/2 years ago.


----------



## MattMatt

Blossom Leigh said:


> I figured someone would end up asking her for me or quoting me like you did and she would see it


You could have pmed her?


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

NoChoice said:


> WR,
> I will offer this advice for your consideration and I speak from first hand experience. Hearing "I don't know" is the same as hearing "I don't want you to know" to a BS. However, and this is huge to recognize, if and only if, "I don't know" is the ABSOLUTE truth then it should be spoken, if not, then another, more appropriate answer should be given. "I can only recall part of the conversation" or "allow me some time to see if I can recall what we talked about" or "I remember saying this or that but nothing else" but keep in mind that it must be ABSOLUTELY true. ANY lie can be found out, even if it wasn't malicious so it is critical to speak only the truth, no matter the consequences.
> 
> Speaking the truth EVERY TIME is the only way to establish your honesty and credibility.


Yes, Chris said to say it like that, it's not how I think to answer things but does sound better and more caring as long as it's the truth,


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Squeakr said:


> How about telling the truth, along the lines of "I know I talked about work some and not sure the extent of that. I am also not sure about what else we discussed at this time as I am truly having trouble remembering the entire conversation." It might not sound the best but say it with meaning and directly and it is your answer, instead of lying and appearing to be hiding things yet again.
> 
> For some reason the WS just doesn't seem to grasp the concept of how the lies are sometimes worse than the actions.


\yes I think i've got that now


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Blossom Leigh said:


> hmmm getting totally ignored here... wonder why.
> 
> 
> I'll just leave you with this for now...
> 
> Anytime you are learning new language skills it takes time, but during that time you can say "I am committed to learning to do better." That at least gives something to build on.


Not ignoring this but very tired and working my way through and trying to read everything and pick out useful bits.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Blossom Leigh said:


> WR, do you have me on ignore?


NO but I am going to bed very soon


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Blossom Leigh said:


> what did you fear if you got it wrong


If I can't remember something he always says its convenient and I didn't want him to think I was making anything up.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

MattMatt said:


> You could have pmed her?


Sure, no biggie


----------



## Blossom Leigh

White Rose said:


> If I can't remember something he always says its convenient and I didn't want him to think I was making anything up.


Something I want you to remember

If I dont know or I dont remember is the truth

Stand on it

If you have abused that in the past apologize, and stop so that new reality is built going forward

You have to stop fearing man when you are speaking the truth.

You cant control his reactions, those are on him

My husband terrified our child one morning because he would not accept I dont know for an answer when come to find out it was the truth. I noticed our child shift to lying in an attempt to get his father to stop the unnecessary pressure. So I intervened. Excessive pressure and non acceptance of the truth needs a boundary. You cant change the past but you can change this going forward.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

White Rose said:


> Not ignoring this but very tired and working my way through and trying to read everything and pick out useful bits.


Ok, no worries, just wanted to make sure I could reach out to you. I know you are overwhelmed and tired and I will help any way I can.


----------



## MattMatt

vellocet said:


> Well if she is attracted to thugs, let them have her.
> 
> Move on to greener pastures.


Chap wasn't actually a thug. He has an MA, he's a good professional type, in some way. But a bit of a rum cove, by all accounts.

Has problems keeping his python within its cage.


----------



## Squeakr

MattMatt said:


> Chap wasn't actually a thug. He has an MA, he's a good professional type, in some way. But a bit of a rum cove, by all accounts.
> 
> Has problems keeping his python within its cage.


MA and professional type doesn't mean he can't also be a thug. They are not mutually inclusive. Like my daughter said to the STBXW's lawyer, "so you're the butthole! " I told her that wasn't a good thing to say when I found out but I also told her she was allowed her impression. He argued with her and told her he had 4 years of law school. Sorry but education is not a replacement for personality and character. You can be both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

WR

Despite all of this, he is still not totally gone. You have a chance but not a lot of time.

Get some IC. 

It is not too late


----------



## oneMOreguy

White Rose said:


> I think all those reasons you gave.


WR....thank you for taking the time to consider this....I mean that most sincerely.

Overall........choosing all of the possible answers means not choosing an answer........but that's ok............its a small step toward self analysis in its own way. 

I am guessing that right now you are mentally bouncing off of each and every wall, and that you feel pretty directionless and out of control. You are getting an enormous amount of questions and comments here, and that is certainly complicating things a lot.

WR.....sit down and breath......things will get better....but how you figure things out will direct what that means.

first.......look at the advice here, and throw out the extremes on either side of how to do things. then start looking for consistency. And folks that are (multiple times) posting here in a way intended to be useful and not an attack, are really doing their best to get your attention and help you. 

got a couple of suggestions for you to consider

1. first off, look in the mirror each day and remind yourself that you are a good person who strung together some real cruddy behavior in the past, but who is committed to doing better. Of course you are a good person inside. Go back to thinking of the way you were when your husband first married you. That person is still there, clouded by the mental process that allowed you to have your affair. I am a WS with a very inappropriate friendship. One that easily could have gone very wrong under different circumstances. I do understand how the brain can be manipulated by its owner to compartmentalize, and make behavior like this seem ok........luckily I have surfaced, more or less, and now understand what is going on. The whole WS thing is hard for anyone to understand if they have not struggled with it. Although I have been humbled by the past few years, I still consider myself a good person, and so should you........don't let anyone here convince you otherwise. 

but now for #2

you somehow have to come to grips with the fact that you made some major screw ups and did some major hurt........and do this in a productive way that can lead to change.....just beating yourself up does not do any good at all to anyone. Most people cannot do this on their own, and this is why individual counseling is so often advised. An IC can keep the process on track, without you straying off into non productive areas. Right now you are just feeling sorry and guilty (I am assuming you are honest with us) and your behavior is just reactionary to these strong emotions. This is NOT GOOD!! You have to regain control (in a healthy sense) and act from stability in your head. When you are able to be fully honest with yourself, then you will be ok with being fully honest and open with others, even about your most terrible actions. 

No one can predict how things will end up with you and your husband. But truly getting a grip on yourself and what you do, and believing in your own self worth is a good start to opening a honest communication with him.........at the very least you are co parents who should work together on child issues.

Last bit of advice.......don't use this website as your therapist. This is a good site for getting some starting points, and for followup support. But use a real therapist for the tough stuff. It will be very tough for you to go beyond just feeling bad and guilty, and directly and logically confront the things you did and the impacts it had on you and everyone around you. Best wishes.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> 
> White Rose
> 
> What has transpired with you and Chris has caused permanent damage. I am sure you already know this but maybe your hope that Chris will come back may happen. However, if Chris comes back then you will have to settle for less than a deep loving relationship because of the damage already done. You probably already know that also but at this point you are desperate and wanting Chris back at almost any cost. If Chris does come back then you will be very elated for a time but eventually the damage that has been done will affect your relationship so that you will probably not be real happy with what the relationship finally settles down to.
> 
> 
> There is some similarity in you and Chris’s situation and mine and my wife, however there are some differences also. In our case I divorced her and then we came back together. I made her prove her sincerity for over 4 years then remarried her. It has been over 20 years since D-day and we have improved our relationship in some areas. However, there are permanent damages that will never go away and therefore we will never have the deep all around love that was possible before the affair. I still have a degree of love for my wife but there is permanent damage that will never heal and that keeps us from having the deep all-encompassing love that we all dream of.
> 
> My wife is a good person that has many good qualities it is just that my admiration for her in certain areas is dead. We have built on other areas in our relationship and have a marriage that is average and above average at times. We will never have a great marriage.
> 
> 
> One of my main points in writing you this posts is so that you do not get an expectation that is not possible. Also, I hope that you take actions in your life so that you can be satisfied if you and Chris wind up just being friends or having an average marriage but not a great marriage. I know you may be satisfied with any positive relationship you get from Chris from what it is right now. However, you probably will not be satisfied with that that level of relationship in 10-20 years from now unless you know what level can be achieved and train yourself to be content with that level.
> 
> 
> As for you personally, aside from your relationship with Chris, you can improve in your self-acceptance and not be so negative about what your have done. You are a valuable person to your children and you should know that you can be a valuable person to yourself and maybe you already are.
> 
> As for your relationship with Chris you have made a series of horrible choices and you will pay for as you already have been paying for that. Being married to Chris or having a much better relationship with Chris is not your whole life. You can still have a decent life but it will not include a deep loving relationship with Chris. You will do yourself a favor by starting to accept this truth.
> 
> We have all made serious mistakes in life but we just have to accept the natural consequences and keep improving our lives. You can still be a very valuable person to yourself, your children, and your grandchildren. Just do not expect to have a deep loving relationship with Chris. You probably will not have a deep loving relationship with any man but then again you maybe an exception to the rule.
> 
> These are just my opinions and may not apply to you but having lived your scenario somewhat for over 20 years that is what I see. White Rose I hope that you improve yourself because you still have something to give but it is just that none of us wind up with 100% of our potential.
> 
> Life can be good at 80%-90%
> 
> Blunt
> 
> 
> 
> *By Jung Admirer*
> Interesting post .. I wonder if someone from the fWS side (ex. EI or Mrs John Adams) would agree with your comments.



*EI and Mrs. John Adams were nowhere even close to where Chris and WR are right now after 2.5 years of R. Comparing EI and Mrs. John Adams to WR is a real HUGE stretch!*

EI and her husband are miles ahead of WR and Chris in their relationship. In addition, EI, after 2.5 years was doing EVERYTHING possible for BI for at least 2 years of the 2.5 years of R. WR did not and that has affected Chris a lot. B1 never had an affair and Chris has.

Mrs. John Adams was a one night stand; WR was having an affair for YEARS! That makes a LOT of difference in some areas. Mrs. John Adams never went back to the OM; WR did.


My post is one that is attempting to help WR and Chris. IMO, they have done damage that makes it impossible to have the 100% deep all around love that was possible before the affair. That is the reality as my experience has proven. It may be possible for them to get to a relationship that has 80-90% of what a deep fulfilling all around love has; that can produce a relationship that is good. I think that accepting this is much more of a reality than thinking that they can have a great 100% relationship that includes deep all around love. Having expectations that never get realized can be very damaging. Conversely, having realistic goals and being able to meet them can be very positive.

*Chris and WR can make their relationship more positive and that depends on the actions that they take and the realistic goals that they accept and set!*

Jung Admirer, how many years in dealing with infidelity and R do you have?


----------



## Wolfman1968

Hmmm....I notice that with White Rose having more posts the past few pages, there is more of a discussion and less of a "piling on" by participants.

I am tempted to believe when the OP is not around to respond, then posters get more and more speculative leading to an appearnace of "piling on" in the comments.


----------



## oneMOreguy

Wolfman1968 said:


> Hmmm....I notice that with White Rose having more posts the past few pages, there is more of a discussion and less of a "piling on" by participants.
> 
> I am tempted to believe when the OP is not around to respond, then posters get more and more speculative leading to an appearnace of "piling on" in the comments.


...quite possibly, either that or the ones piling on get weary and move on........either way, hopefully she is getting some useful information from all of this....


----------



## Wolfman1968

Originally Posted by Mr Blunt 

White Rose

What has transpired with you and Chris has caused permanent damage. I am sure you already know this but maybe your hope that Chris will come back may happen. However, if Chris comes back then you will have to settle for less than a deep loving relationship because of the damage already done. You probably already know that also but at this point you are desperate and wanting Chris back at almost any cost. If Chris does come back then you will be very elated for a time but eventually the damage that has been done will affect your relationship so that you will probably not be real happy with what the relationship finally settles down to.


There is some similarity in you and Chris’s situation and mine and my wife, however there are some differences also. In our case I divorced her and then we came back together. I made her prove her sincerity for over 4 years then remarried her. It has been over 20 years since D-day and we have improved our relationship in some areas. However, there are permanent damages that will never go away and therefore we will never have the deep all around love that was possible before the affair. I still have a degree of love for my wife but there is permanent damage that will never heal and that keeps us from having the deep all-encompassing love that we all dream of. 

My wife is a good person that has many good qualities it is just that my admiration for her in certain areas is dead. We have built on other areas in our relationship and have a marriage that is average and above average at times. We will never have a great marriage.


One of my main points in writing you this posts is so that you do not get an expectation that is not possible. Also, I hope that you take actions in your life so that you can be satisfied if you and Chris wind up just being friends or having an average marriage but not a great marriage. I know you may be satisfied with any positive relationship you get from Chris from what it is right now. However, you probably will not be satisfied with that that level of relationship in 10-20 years from now unless you know what level can be achieved and train yourself to be content with that level.


As for you personally, aside from your relationship with Chris, you can improve in your self-acceptance and not be so negative about what your have done. You are a valuable person to your children and you should know that you can be a valuable person to yourself and maybe you already are. 

As for your relationship with Chris you have made a series of horrible choices and you will pay for as you already have been paying for that. Being married to Chris or having a much better relationship with Chris is not your whole life. You can still have a decent life but it will not include a deep loving relationship with Chris. You will do yourself a favor by starting to accept this truth.

We have all made serious mistakes in life but we just have to accept the natural consequences and keep improving our lives. You can still be a very valuable person to yourself, your children, and your grandchildren. Just do not expect to have a deep loving relationship with Chris. You probably will not have a deep loving relationship with any man but then again you maybe an exception to the rule.

These are just my opinions and may not apply to you but having lived your scenario somewhat for over 20 years that is what I see. White Rose I hope that you improve yourself because you still have something to give but it is just that none of us wind up with 100% of our potential. 

Life can be good at 80%-90%

Blunt
*******************************************

From what I see here, I have to agree with Mr. Blunt.

I don't think their relationship, in my opinion, is likely to ever be as good as it was.

And, although it is always the decision of the parties involved, in my personal opinion, I think this may well be one of the situations in which it would be better that Reconciliation not happen. They can be respectful of each other and should be cooperative co-parents, but in this case I think that Reconciliation would be a mistake.

I say that because in my opinion there are fundamental issues which would prevent a successful marriage that go beyond just the incident of the affair.


----------



## manticore

Sorry but i dont believe this 



White Rose said:


> I didn't want to say i couldn't remember as it would look dodgy so I said work, which was not lying, however saying only work was because I knew there was other stuff but couldn't on the spot remember.


Nor this



White Rose said:


> I never said sex was bad just soul less. I enjoyed being with the OM because it was an escape.


see we actually have a user that had an affair as a fix, to break to boring routine, as an escape, and it was not just 2.5 years, it was almost 5 years her user name is "regret", but see even if they belong to the same group of friends, they didn'r spend time alone sharing things or watching tv (as affair partners), they had sex and period, neither wanted to left their spouses, so when her husband found out and she realized how bad se screw up, she begged for forgiveness and she was given one chance and she was requested total honesty and all the truth to expose the OM, and she burned the OM as if her life depended on it.

there was not wanting a last call, there was not wnating furter contact, there was not protecting him, from her perspective both did wrong and both used each other and now was a about saving her marriage a having one chance for redemption, with all the infromation she gave to her husband he made the OM to lost his marriage, his JOB as a firm partner and his house.

in the other hand we have your bahaviour where you, left a scenary for friends and family to believe chris was a ****ty husband, were you shared your relationship with the om with your closest friends/family, you have admitted to try to be more attractive to the OM than his GF, you obviously wanted her partner place, so your statements of he being just and scape does not match your own words and bahaviour, and that is why chris can't trust you, if it is obvious to me that you are contrdicting yourself then is obvious to him also.

if you ask me what i think what happened in your case I will describe it as following:

YYou had certain inclination to balck men, maybe because you never had the chance to be with one or beause you found them interesting "whatever cultural or physical", you wanted to get frisky and tought you were gonna be able to control the affair, but as many have experienced before (specially women) you got infautuated with the OM, then you visulized a a tried a "the real realtionship option" when he left clear his stance and you realized how things were after he dumped you, you came to your senses and realized everything was just a fantasy and then you wanted to save your marriage and this is how we ended here.

the thing is as many said, even if chris knows that you really had the intetion to leave him for the OM, you keep trying to modify the truth to have what at your point of view is the best standing for a try of reconcilation, so of course you can not accept he was plan B, even if it was for a infautuation.


----------



## Rookie4

Whew!! I finally got caught up with this thread. 
First off, WR, if posters ask you intimate personal questions or make insulting comments, you are under NO obligation to answer them, or can ignore them as you choose. This is YOUR thread.
Secondly, some posters, like MattMatt amd Blunt are good people and are here to help, others only want to cause drama. ( I believe that more than a few are young people who are getting their jollies on the web). As you become acquainted with TAM, you will get to know which ones are which.


----------



## wmn1

Squeakr said:


> MA and professional type doesn't mean he can't also be a thug. They are not mutually inclusive. Like my daughter said to the STBXW's lawyer, "so you're the butthole! " I told her that wasn't a good thing to say when I found out but I also told her she was allowed her impression. He argued with her and told her he had 4 years of law school. Sorry but education is not a replacement for personality and character. You can be both.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I like your daughter's spunk though and her defending of Dad


----------



## wmn1

Rookie4 said:


> Whew!! I finally got caught up with this thread.
> First off, WR, if posters ask you intimate personal questions or make insulting comments, you are under NO obligation to answer them, or can ignore them as you choose. This is YOUR thread.
> Secondly, some posters, like MattMatt amd Blunt are good people and are here to help, others only want to cause drama. ( I believe that more than a few are young people who are getting their jollies on the web). As you become acquainted with TAM, you will get to know which ones are which.


Far from the truth. Further, I highly doubt too many young people are spending time here instead of working, partying or hanging out with boyfriends/girlfriends. 

Some here are brutally honest, some here avoids criticism at any cost , a few flame , some apologize for cheaters and a few have their own agendas (like building up feminism threads or what have you) but I would say that the vast majority of people on these threads are good people trying to help.

While you said that she's under no obligation to answer some of the questions, it is not any of us who went to her to intrude into her life. It is her and Chris who came here. Whether she answers or not is up to her but she should expect a slew of questions when putting up her personal story here. That's part of it. 

Finally, people do disagree here. For example, the two you mentioned, I agree with Matt the majority of the time, Blunt not so much. It doesn't make any of us bad. It is the way it is.

So yes, Rookie, I think your comments only serve to stir the pot more, whether intended or not


----------



## wmn1

Wolfman1968 said:


> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> 
> White Rose
> 
> What has transpired with you and Chris has caused permanent damage. I am sure you already know this but maybe your hope that Chris will come back may happen. However, if Chris comes back then you will have to settle for less than a deep loving relationship because of the damage already done. You probably already know that also but at this point you are desperate and wanting Chris back at almost any cost. If Chris does come back then you will be very elated for a time but eventually the damage that has been done will affect your relationship so that you will probably not be real happy with what the relationship finally settles down to.
> 
> 
> There is some similarity in you and Chris’s situation and mine and my wife, however there are some differences also. In our case I divorced her and then we came back together. I made her prove her sincerity for over 4 years then remarried her. It has been over 20 years since D-day and we have improved our relationship in some areas. However, there are permanent damages that will never go away and therefore we will never have the deep all around love that was possible before the affair. I still have a degree of love for my wife but there is permanent damage that will never heal and that keeps us from having the deep all-encompassing love that we all dream of.
> 
> My wife is a good person that has many good qualities it is just that my admiration for her in certain areas is dead. We have built on other areas in our relationship and have a marriage that is average and above average at times. We will never have a great marriage.
> 
> 
> One of my main points in writing you this posts is so that you do not get an expectation that is not possible. Also, I hope that you take actions in your life so that you can be satisfied if you and Chris wind up just being friends or having an average marriage but not a great marriage. I know you may be satisfied with any positive relationship you get from Chris from what it is right now. However, you probably will not be satisfied with that that level of relationship in 10-20 years from now unless you know what level can be achieved and train yourself to be content with that level.
> 
> 
> As for you personally, aside from your relationship with Chris, you can improve in your self-acceptance and not be so negative about what your have done. You are a valuable person to your children and you should know that you can be a valuable person to yourself and maybe you already are.
> 
> As for your relationship with Chris you have made a series of horrible choices and you will pay for as you already have been paying for that. Being married to Chris or having a much better relationship with Chris is not your whole life. You can still have a decent life but it will not include a deep loving relationship with Chris. You will do yourself a favor by starting to accept this truth.
> 
> We have all made serious mistakes in life but we just have to accept the natural consequences and keep improving our lives. You can still be a very valuable person to yourself, your children, and your grandchildren. Just do not expect to have a deep loving relationship with Chris. You probably will not have a deep loving relationship with any man but then again you maybe an exception to the rule.
> 
> These are just my opinions and may not apply to you but having lived your scenario somewhat for over 20 years that is what I see. White Rose I hope that you improve yourself because you still have something to give but it is just that none of us wind up with 100% of our potential.
> 
> Life can be good at 80%-90%
> 
> Blunt
> *******************************************
> 
> From what I see here, I have to agree with Mr. Blunt.
> 
> I don't think their relationship, in my opinion, is likely to ever be as good as it was.
> 
> And, although it is always the decision of the parties involved, in my personal opinion, I think this may well be one of the situations in which it would be better that Reconciliation not happen. They can be respectful of each other and should be cooperative co-parents, but in this case I think that Reconciliation would be a mistake.
> 
> I say that because in my opinion there are fundamental issues which would prevent a successful marriage that go beyond just the incident of the affair.



I agree with Mr Blunt and you. The above statements carry a lot of merit and makes a lot of sense.


----------



## As'laDain

Personally, I don't feel that viewing it as restoring the relationship is nearly as productive as thinking of it as establishing a new relationship with new and reforged people. If you are the same person, then you can fall into the same traps. So it's safer to be a new person. And if the people are new, so is the relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

As'laDain said:


> Personally, I don't feel that viewing it as restoring the relationship is nearly as productive as thinking of it as establishing a new relationship with new and reforged people. If you are the same person, then you can fall into the same traps. So it's safer to be a new person. And if the people are new, so is the relationship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Totally concur.

This is exactly what my H and I have done. And even though we are in the middle of righting a wrong from that affair past right now as described in my Well, I just did it thread... we are clearly relating to each other totally different than in the past. We intentionally set out to deconstruct the old relationship and construct a new one. It was the ONLY way we were going to survive. And our son got to see first hand his adult parents screw up, learn from it and intentionally choose better for the sake of family staying together. Great lesson.


----------



## Jung_admirer

Mr Blunt said:


> Jung Admirer, how many years in dealing with infidelity and R do you have? 2.5 years


TAM is rough sometimes, my comments were not facetious. You have 20 yrs invested in R and I have no doubt that you accurately describe your perspective. Mrs John Adams has 20 years on the fWS side. My question is: Would she agree that 80-90% is the very best outcome? I agree with you that creating a mindset based on reasonable expectations is crucial (something I struggle with). I'll apologize now to the OP for the brief TJ.


----------



## ThePheonix

Mr Blunt said:


> *
> EI and her husband are miles ahead of WR and Chris in their relationship. In addition, EI, after 2.5 years was doing EVERYTHING possible for BI for at least 2 years of the 2.5 years of R. WR did not and that has affected Chris a lot. B1 never had an affair and Chris has.
> *


*

EI didn't give anybody, husband included, any horse sh-t about why she went down Infidelity Boulevard . As best as I recall, there was not a lot of crap about, "I don't know why I did it", "something strange came over me",etc. She made her role in it and her reasons very easy to understand, put her cards right out on the table, and spend more than adequate time on the dunking stool.*


----------



## vellocet

MattMatt said:


> Chap wasn't actually a thug. He has an MA, he's a good professional type, in some way. But a bit of a rum cove, by all accounts.


I am going by what Chris said with regards to her having an obsession with gangster type boys.

And maybe I missed it. Who is Chap? Someone here at TAM that she had the affair with?


----------



## Squeakr

wmn1 said:


> I like your daughter's spunk though and her defending of Dad


Wish I could say that she was defending Dad (she might be, I am not really sure, as that is just one of many things I am not allowed to talk to her about, per her lawyers demands). I do know that she is tired of the underhandedness that he is doing in this process, and she sees him as trying to split the family, although it was already divided, but his actions are just causing more animosity and backing everything wrong that the STBXW is doing in this whole ordeal and that is how she sees it (according to what she tells me).


----------



## Squeakr

vellocet said:


> I am going by what Chris said with regards to her having an obsession with gangster type boys.
> 
> And maybe I missed it. Who is Chap?


MM is british so I assume he is using it as nothing more than the male term here (such as americans would use, bud, dude, etc). Such as "Good Day, Chap."


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Squeakr said:


> Wish I could say that she was defending Dad (she might be, I am not really sure, as that is just one of many things I am not allowed to talk to her about, per her lawyers demands). I do know that she is tired of the underhandedness that he is doing in this process, and she sees him as trying to split the family, although it was already divided, but his actions are just causing more animosity and backing everything wrong that the STBXW is doing in this whole ordeal and that is how she sees it (according to what she tells me).


This was one reason I fought so hard to keep my family together. Not implying anyone here didn't at all. But this "scene" is what propelled the energy I put behind it for sure.


----------



## vellocet

Squeakr said:


> MM is british so I assume he is using it as nothing more than the male term here (such as americans would use, bud, dude, etc). Such as "Good Day, Chap."


Ah, got it.


----------



## Squeakr

Blossom Leigh said:


> This was one reason I fought so hard to keep my family together. Not implying anyone here didn't at all. But this "scene" is what propelled the energy I put behind it for sure.


I tried myself to keep the family together, but she wanted out and tis the one that initiated it and is stoking the fire, while I am trying to gracefully fade away.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Squeakr said:


> I tried myself to keep the family together, but she wanted out and tis the one that initiated it and is stoking the fire, while I am trying to gracefully fade away.



Totally understood.. I always say most people are capable it's the willingness that is the problem. I am so sorry Squeaker.


----------



## NoChoice

Relationships are intangible objects but objects none the less and as such they can be damaged. After a car collision, the body shop makes the necessary repairs to restore the vehicle to as close to "as new" as they can. Many factors determine the final outcome. Quality of materials used, skill and expertise of the technician, amount of time invested and so forth.

I feel that the same is true of a relationship that has crashed. Many factors will determine the final outcome and there are many variables. I do however believe that complete restoration is not possible and perhaps not desirable. After a crash, things can never be exactly as they were before and I am relatively certain that that is a positive. Is it such a bad thing that the areas of the relationship that were showing signs of wear and that may have contributed to the affair are not brought back to their original condition? That is not to say that the vehicle will not be fully functional and aesthetically appealing, maybe even so near perfect that you cannot tell the difference until you look really close. It just will never be new again, which can be okay and in some ways, it could even be better.

I feel R is possible and even recommended under the right conditions because, IF both parties are FULLY committed, I feel the probability of success is high and that the relationship can offer a level of satisfaction that could be well within acceptable limits and may even exceed the pre-affair level.

Obviously, it would be better to work out all problems with communication and negotiation rather than resorting to infidelity but once the crash has occurred, then we must use what we can to restore the relationship if that is the goal. Aside from the act itself and the resulting fallout, which is significant, the marriage may actually be improved post affair.

I really do not feel that it is possible to put a percentage on it since there are so many possible variables. As I stated above, I feel that most, if not all, marriages that experience affairs are not in the greatest of shape to begin with and that, after much work by both parties, the relationship can actually be better, in some areas, than it was prior to the affair.

I therefore feel that percentages are misleading but I understand their use in giving example.


----------



## MattMatt

vellocet said:


> I am going by what Chris said with regards to her having an obsession with gangster type boys.
> 
> And maybe I missed it. Who is Chap? Someone here at TAM that she had the affair with?


Chap means a man. Used in British and Irish English to refer to a male. In much the same way as American English uses dude.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

MattMatt said:


> Chap means a man. Used in British and Irish English to refer to a male. In much the same way as American English uses dude.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, got it now. Initially I thought you were referring to one of our resident TAM posters whose handle starts with "Chap".

Glad that isn't the case.


----------



## Squeakr

MattMatt said:


> Chap means a man. Used in British and Irish English to refer to a male. In much the same way as American English uses dude.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL, that is almost exactly what I speculated you meant. Even used the same comparison. LOL


----------



## Rookie4

MattMatt said:


> Chap means a man. Used in British and Irish English to refer to a male. In much the same way as American English uses dude.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmmm, I thought it was "Mate". When we used to work with the Royal Marines, they always called each other ," Mate".


----------



## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> Hmmm, I thought it was "Mate". When we used to work with the Royal Marines, they always called each other ," Mate".


Mate is generally either Aussie decent or when used within the military of nautical background (such as short for shipmate), and the Royal Marines, just like the US Marines have a deeply rooted nautical history, but is also used as a term of endearment, kind of like bro or brother in the us. More "intimate" than chap.


----------



## MattMatt

Rookie4 said:


> Hmmm, I thought it was "Mate". When we used to work with the Royal Marines, they always called each other ," Mate".


Yes, but mate refers to a friend. A chap is someone you do not know, necessarily.

Crikey. Royal Marines? When was that? If it was 30 years ago, you might have worked with my FIL!


----------



## convert

MattMatt said:


> Yes, but mate refers to a friend. A chap is someone you do not know, necessarily.
> 
> Crikey. Royal Marines? When was that? If it was 30 years ago, you might have worked with my FIL!


What about when they call their female boss "Mum"

that wouldn't fly here in the U.S. (I might try it though)

for crying out loud I just wish the British would speak English

and another one a "Torch" is a flash light in England and in the U.S. it is oxygen and acetylene to cut steel with.

what does the British use to cut steel? ( I think they use their resolve to cut steel ---they do have tremendous resolve) just ask the Germans


----------



## Divinely Favored

Had HS English teacher go to London on vacation. Cab driver at airport there asked her what she did. She said English teacher and he said no you teach American.


----------



## Squeakr

MattMatt said:


> Yes, but mate refers to a friend. A chap is someone you do not know, necessarily.
> 
> Crikey. Royal Marines? When was that? If it was 30 years ago, you might have worked with my FIL!


Wow I now am feeling old as I dealt with the Royal Marines and the Rock Marines of Korea 20+ years ago during support missions. I AM old.


----------



## wmn1

NoChoice said:


> Relationships are intangible objects but objects none the less and as such they can be damaged. After a car collision, the body shop makes the necessary repairs to restore the vehicle to as close to "as new" as they can. Many factors determine the final outcome. Quality of materials used, skill and expertise of the technician, amount of time invested and so forth.
> 
> I feel that the same is true of a relationship that has crashed. Many factors will determine the final outcome and there are many variables. I do however believe that complete restoration is not possible and perhaps not desirable. After a crash, things can never be exactly as they were before and I am relatively certain that that is a positive. Is it such a bad thing that the areas of the relationship that were showing signs of wear and that may have contributed to the affair are not brought back to their original condition? That is not to say that the vehicle will not be fully functional and aesthetically appealing, maybe even so near perfect that you cannot tell the difference until you look really close. It just will never be new again, which can be okay and in some ways, it could even be better.
> 
> I feel R is possible and even recommended under the right conditions because, IF both parties are FULLY committed, I feel the probability of success is high and that the relationship can offer a level of satisfaction that could be well within acceptable limits and may even exceed the pre-affair level.
> 
> Obviously, it would be better to work out all problems with communication and negotiation rather than resorting to infidelity but once the crash has occurred, then we must use what we can to restore the relationship if that is the goal. Aside from the act itself and the resulting fallout, which is significant, the marriage may actually be improved post affair.
> 
> I really do not feel that it is possible to put a percentage on it since there are so many possible variables. As I stated above, I feel that most, if not all, marriages that experience affairs are not in the greatest of shape to begin with and that, after much work by both parties, the relationship can actually be better, in some areas, than it was prior to the affair.
> 
> I therefore feel that percentages are misleading but I understand their use in giving example.


Maybe, maybe not but I view it as a relationship that has a scar which will always be there as well as trust issues, etc.

I believe that people who work things out and persevere without an affair do better than those who resorted to affairs for whatever reason.

I also believe that people in relationships that don't involve affairs end up better in the long run
As you said, hard to point out percentages but I have never seen a couple who endured an affair be better off in the long run. And while it may happen for some, they lack a wholesome marriage that many I know who never had affairs have.

In other words, cheating is never the answer


----------



## NoChoice

wmn1 said:


> Maybe, maybe not but I view it as a relationship that has a scar which will always be there as well as trust issues, etc.
> 
> I believe that people who work things out and persevere without an affair do better than those who resorted to affairs for whatever reason.
> 
> I also believe that people in relationships that don't involve affairs end up better in the long run
> As you said, hard to point out percentages but I have never seen a couple who endured an affair be better off in the long run. And while it may happen for some, they lack a wholesome marriage that many I know who never had affairs have.
> 
> In other words, cheating is never the answer


Agreed never the answer. My point was that sometimes, when R truly works, the marriage can be better off than pre-affair but not better off than it could have been without the affair had another path been chosen.


----------



## wmn1

NoChoice said:


> Agreed never the answer. My point was that sometimes, when R truly works, the marriage can be better off than pre-affair but not better off than it could have been without the affair had another path been chosen.



agreed completely


----------



## As'laDain

wmn1 said:


> Maybe, maybe not but I view it as a relationship that has a scar which will always be there as well as trust issues, etc.
> 
> I believe that people who work things out and persevere without an affair do better than those who resorted to affairs for whatever reason.
> 
> I also believe that people in relationships that don't involve affairs end up better in the long run
> *As you said, hard to point out percentages but I have never seen a couple who endured an affair be better off in the long run. And while it may happen for some, they lack a wholesome marriage that many I know who never had affairs have.*
> 
> In other words, cheating is never the answer



well, now you know one. 

my wife and i are better off now than we ever were before. it was a wake up call... that we needed to change. and we did. 

and now we are better off. 

you know whats funny though? i cant think of my wife as i did before her affair. the person i know now is someone far more honest, forgiving, trustworthy, faithful, courageous... 

she is a totally different person. she made her mistakes, owned it, and changed who she was on the inside. i cant even begin to feel any resentment for how she acted back then... because who she i now is nothing like who she was. i married a unicorn... a shape-shifting unicorn who transforms into something more beautiful every time she makes a mistake. 


but your right. the infidelity didnt make us stronger or better off. WE did.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Now you know two...

My H and I are also on track to be better after than before. :smthumbup:


----------



## Rookie4

MattMatt said:


> Yes, but mate refers to a friend. A chap is someone you do not know, necessarily.
> 
> Crikey. Royal Marines? When was that? If it was 30 years ago, you might have worked with my FIL!


Well, I'm not that old, but I have a lot of friends that were RM's and Paras. Matter of fact, when I retire this month, my GF and I are meeting a former Marine and his wife in the Caymans. Peel the bark off a few. 
Leased a "flat" in London, a few years ago, and will probably divide my time between the US and UK.


----------



## NoChoice

As'laDain said:


> well, now you know one.
> 
> my wife and i are better off now than we ever were before. it was a wake up call... that we needed to change. and we did.
> 
> and now we are better off.
> 
> you know whats funny though? i cant think of my wife as i did before her affair. the person i know now is someone far more honest, forgiving, trustworthy, faithful, courageous...
> 
> she is a totally different person. she made her mistakes, owned it, and changed who she was on the inside. i cant even begin to feel any resentment for how she acted back then... because who she i now is nothing like who she was. i married a unicorn... a shape-shifting unicorn who transforms into something more beautiful every time she makes a mistake.
> 
> 
> but your right. the infidelity didnt make us stronger or better off. WE did.





Blossom Leigh said:


> Now you know two...
> 
> My H and I are also on track to be better after than before. :smthumbup:


Inspiring. You two are examples of why we are here doing this. Hopefully, WR can take your advice and make the same deep rooted changes that you were able to. I am hoping so.


----------



## MattMatt

convert said:


> What about when they call their female boss "Mum"
> 
> that wouldn't fly here in the U.S. (I might try it though)
> 
> for crying out loud I just wish the British would speak English
> 
> and another one a "Torch" is a flash light in England and in the U.S. it is oxygen and acetylene to cut steel with.
> 
> what does the British use to cut steel? ( I think they use their resolve to cut steel ---they do have tremendous resolve) just ask the Germans


It't not actually mum it's ma'am, slightly different, though with the same root.

And in the UK a torch is both a light _and_ an oxy-acetylene burner.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

jim123 said:


> WR
> 
> Despite all of this, he is still not totally gone. You have a chance but not a lot of time.
> 
> Get some IC.
> 
> It is not too late


I am getting some tomorrow.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

manticore said:


> Sorry but i dont believe this
> 
> 
> 
> Nor this
> 
> 
> 
> see we actually have a user that had an affair as a fix, to break to boring routine, as an escape, and it was not just 2.5 years, it was almost 5 years her user name is "regret", but see even if they belong to the same group of friends, they didn'r spend time alone sharing things or watching tv (as affair partners), they had sex and period, neither wanted to left their spouses, so when her husband found out and she realized how bad se screw up, she begged for forgiveness and she was given one chance and she was requested total honesty and all the truth to expose the OM, and she burned the OM as if her life depended on it.
> 
> there was not wanting a last call, there was not wnating furter contact, there was not protecting him, from her perspective both did wrong and both used each other and now was a about saving her marriage a having one chance for redemption, with all the infromation she gave to her husband he made the OM to lost his marriage, his JOB as a firm partner and his house.
> 
> in the other hand we have your bahaviour where you, left a scenary for friends and family to believe chris was a ****ty husband, were you shared your relationship with the om with your closest friends/family, you have admitted to try to be more attractive to the OM than his GF, you obviously wanted her partner place, so your statements of he being just and scape does not match your own words and bahaviour, and that is why chris can't trust you, if it is obvious to me that you are contrdicting yourself then is obvious to him also.
> 
> if you ask me what i think what happened in your case I will describe it as following:
> 
> YYou had certain inclination to balck men, maybe because you never had the chance to be with one or beause you found them interesting "whatever cultural or physical", you wanted to get frisky and tought you were gonna be able to control the affair, but as many have experienced before (specially women) you got infautuated with the OM, then you visulized a a tried a "the real realtionship option" when he left clear his stance and you realized how things were after he dumped you, you came to your senses and realized everything was just a fantasy and then you wanted to save your marriage and this is how we ended here.
> 
> the thing is as many said, even if chris knows that you really had the intetion to leave him for the OM, you keep trying to modify the truth to have what at your point of view is the best standing for a try of reconcilation, so of course you can not accept he was plan B, even if it was for a infautuation.


That's really interesting, I shall read this again.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

oneMOreguy said:


> WR....thank you for taking the time to consider this....I mean that most sincerely.
> 
> Overall........choosing all of the possible answers means not choosing an answer........but that's ok............its a small step toward self analysis in its own way.
> 
> I am guessing that right now you are mentally bouncing off of each and every wall, and that you feel pretty directionless and out of control. You are getting an enormous amount of questions and comments here, and that is certainly complicating things a lot.
> 
> WR.....sit down and breath......things will get better....but how you figure things out will direct what that means.
> 
> first.......look at the advice here, and throw out the extremes on either side of how to do things. then start looking for consistency. And folks that are (multiple times) posting here in a way intended to be useful and not an attack, are really doing their best to get your attention and help you.
> 
> got a couple of suggestions for you to consider
> 
> 1. first off, look in the mirror each day and remind yourself that you are a good person who strung together some real cruddy behavior in the past, but who is committed to doing better. Of course you are a good person inside. Go back to thinking of the way you were when your husband first married you. That person is still there, clouded by the mental process that allowed you to have your affair. I am a WS with a very inappropriate friendship. One that easily could have gone very wrong under different circumstances. I do understand how the brain can be manipulated by its owner to compartmentalize, and make behavior like this seem ok........luckily I have surfaced, more or less, and now understand what is going on. The whole WS thing is hard for anyone to understand if they have not struggled with it. Although I have been humbled by the past few years, I still consider myself a good person, and so should you........don't let anyone here convince you otherwise.
> 
> but now for #2
> 
> you somehow have to come to grips with the fact that you made some major screw ups and did some major hurt........and do this in a productive way that can lead to change.....just beating yourself up does not do any good at all to anyone. Most people cannot do this on their own, and this is why individual counseling is so often advised. An IC can keep the process on track, without you straying off into non productive areas. Right now you are just feeling sorry and guilty (I am assuming you are honest with us) and your behavior is just reactionary to these strong emotions. This is NOT GOOD!! You have to regain control (in a healthy sense) and act from stability in your head. When you are able to be fully honest with yourself, then you will be ok with being fully honest and open with others, even about your most terrible actions.
> 
> No one can predict how things will end up with you and your husband. But truly getting a grip on yourself and what you do, and believing in your own self worth is a good start to opening a honest communication with him.........at the very least you are co parents who should work together on child issues.
> 
> Last bit of advice.......don't use this website as your therapist. This is a good site for getting some starting points, and for followup support. But use a real therapist for the tough stuff. It will be very tough for you to go beyond just feeling bad and guilty, and directly and logically confront the things you did and the impacts it had on you and everyone around you. Best wishes.


Thank you so much, that made me feel very hopeful for myself, thanks.


----------



## oneMOreguy

Where there is life there is hope. I will keep you guys in my prayers.


----------



## S&W500

*White Rose*,

You and *Chris989* have been married 20+ years, which is pretty good for today's standards!
Was there anytime during your marriage where you almost had your 'head turned' by another man....or by anyone who eventually turned out to be like your Other Man?

Also, I apologize if this has been addressed before, but was the fact that this guy had gone after numerous married women before and been successful....a prime-reason in you falling for him? i.e. _"Many women have succumbed to him....he must have 'something' about him...I can change him where all the others couldn't"?_


----------



## Suspecting2014

WR

Did your come cleant to Chris because OM dumped you?


----------



## MattMatt

Suspecting2014 said:


> WR
> 
> Did your come cleant to Chris because OM dumped you?


Chris faced up to OM and OM hid from him.

Chris' action was a wonderful wake up call for WR.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Suspecting2014

MattMatt said:


> Suspecting2014 said:
> 
> 
> 
> WR
> 
> Did your come cleant to Chris because OM dumped you?
> 
> 
> 
> Chris faced up to OM and OM hid from him.
> 
> Chris' action was a wonderful wake up call for WR.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

I believe on DDay WR came clean to a non suspecting Chis.

I am wondering if Chris was/is plan B


----------



## MattMatt

Suspecting2014 said:


> I believe on DDay WR came clean to a non suspecting Chis.
> 
> I am wondering if Chris was/is plan B


People in affairs often compartmentalise. Wife/husband box 1, AP in box 2.

There's no plan a or b, just two separate lives.

At some point when the wall between the two boxes is breached they are hit by the dreadful realisation of what they have done, what they are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Squeakr

MattMatt said:


> People in affairs often compartmentalise. Wife/husband box 1, AP in box 2.
> 
> There's no plan a or b, just two separate lives.
> 
> At some point when the wall between the two boxes is breached theyare hit by the dreadful realisation of what they have done, what they are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't agree or believe this. I was most definitely plan B. She wanted all the other guys and wanted out of the marriage (exit As all the way), but she was unable to let go and leave, as she wanted and need the security, both environmental and financial, that I provided. Therefor she was willing to fall back on me (plan B) if she couldn't make her first choice (plan A) work out fully and wouldn't cut the strings until she knew (of course I found out prior to her getting the chance to fully enact her plan).

I have seen this in several other situations on here. I am not saying it exists in all cases, but there are definitely plan B cases and they do exist. I agree that in these cases compartmentalization occurs though.


----------



## Suspecting2014

MattMatt said:


> Suspecting2014 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe on DDay WR came clean to a non suspecting Chis.
> 
> I am wondering if Chris was/is plan B
> 
> 
> 
> People in affairs often compartmentalise. Wife/husband box 1, AP in box 2.
> 
> There's no plan a or b, just two separate lives.
> 
> At some point when the wall between the two boxes is breached theyare hit by the dreadful realisation of what they have done, what they are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

Agree, but I am refering to other thing.

I wonder if OM didnt want to be with her in a formal relation ( OM dump his GF and WR dumpe Chris, so they could be togueter).

In a few words, if WR came clean because OM didnt want to turn their rlation in a full relation.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Squeakr said:


> MattMatt said:
> 
> 
> 
> People in affairs often compartmentalise. Wife/husband box 1, AP in box 2.
> 
> There's no plan a or b, just two separate lives.
> 
> At some point when the wall between the two boxes is breached theyare hit by the dreadful realisation of what they have done, what they are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> I don't agree or believe this. I was most definitely plan B. She wanted all the other guys and wanted out of the marriage (exit As all the way), but she was unable to let go and leave, as she wanted and need the security, both environmental and financial, that I provided. Therefor she was willing to fall back on me (plan B) if she couldn't make her first choice (plan A) work out fully and wouldn't cut the strings until she knew (of course I found out prior to her getting the chance to fully enact her plan).
> 
> I have seen this in several other situations on here. I am not saying it exists in all cases, but there are definitely plan B cases and they do exist. I agree that in these cases compartmentalization occurs though.
Click to expand...

Exactly


----------



## oneMOreguy

MattMatt said:


> People in affairs often compartmentalise. Wife/husband box 1, AP in box 2.
> 
> There's no plan a or b, just two separate lives.
> 
> At some point when the wall between the two boxes is breached they are hit by the dreadful realisation of what they have done, what they are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


...good insight


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Suspecting2014 said:


> WR
> 
> Did your come cleant to Chris because OM dumped you?


Yes, we had an argument and I believed he had finished it. I was really upset and almost confided in Chris that I'd been in love with someone. The next day OM rang me up and asked to see me. I couldn't believe it and didn't say anything to OM and started to see him again. I knew this was dodgy and I risked getting caught but continued. Chris was getting more suspicious and kept at me to see if anything else had happened which I denied until he broke me down and I admitted I kissed him and then the rest.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

MattMatt said:


> Chris faced up to OM and OM hid from him.
> 
> Chris' action was a wonderful wake up call for WR.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When Chris stood up to the other man I got a real kick out of it. It wasn't that I didn't think he was tough because I'd seen him lose it with a bloke on holiday because his dog nearly bit our daughter and he was a real tough bloke. I did like him standing up to the other bloke and felt like he was protecting me. Yes, I liked that.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Who is EI?


----------



## MattMatt

White Rose said:


> Who is EI?


EI AKA Empty Inside.


----------



## wmn1

oneMOreguy said:


> ...good insight


However, in my opinion, people who compartmentalize like that have significant judgement issues which affects what type of spouse they are or can become. 

If they do it once, they can do it again.

Once you get married, there should be no compartmentalizing. Period.

I think WR realizes that now. However, what is she willing to do to address these issues and fix it for the future whether it's Chris (doubtful) or another guy ????

Fortunately, my wife doesn't 'compartmentalize'.


----------



## MattMatt

wmn1 said:


> However, in my opinion, people who compartmentalize like that have significant judgement issues which affects what type of spouse they are or can become.
> 
> If they do it once, they can do it again.
> 
> Once you get married, there should be no compartmentalizing. Period.
> 
> I think WR realizes that now. However, what is she willing to do to address these issues and fix it for the future whether it's Chris (doubtful) or another guy ????
> 
> Fortunately, my wife doesn't 'compartmentalize'.


I compartmentalised. But when it all came crashing down and I realised what I'd done, somehow compartmentalisation was no longer possible.

It's like one of those trick drawings, "can you see the horse in this picture of a frog?" Once you see the picture of the horse, you can never unsee it again.


----------



## BashfulB

One of the meth dealers my ex wife was banging for her fix was a black guy, and I have to admit to you all that when she told me I was extremely angry about this. 

Since then I have examined myself to see if I may have racist tendencies. I never thought I did, but finding that that she had sex with a black man somehow bothered me much more than the fact she was screwing him for drugs.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by White Rose
> Who is EI?
> 
> BY Matt
> EI AKA Empty Inside.


EI’s husband B1 started a thread a few years ago and it is still being posted to in 2014. If you want some real helpful posts that pertain to some of your issues you should read this thread titled RECONCILLIATION. It is the longest thread on CWI and the best thread IMO. EI had a long term affair and she and B1 are doing REAL WELL and gaining every year. It is an amazing recovery that is still in progress but you can learn a lot from that thread if you really want to learn. *In addition you will gain if you take ACTIONS (Not just talk) but take actions as as EI has done.*
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html


----------



## chaos

To paraphrase Forrest Gump "Racist is as racist does".


----------



## ThePheonix

BashfulBull said:


> One of the meth dealers my ex wife was banging for her fix was a black guy, and I have to admit to you all that when she told me I was extremely angry about this.


Dawg, you're being too hard on yourself. It kinda human nature to get extremely angry when a guy is banging your old lady. If he's black and you get extremely angry, that doesn't make you racist.


----------



## S&W500

BashfulBull said:


> One of the meth dealers my ex wife was banging for her fix was a black guy, and I have to admit to you all that when she told me I was extremely angry about this.
> Since then I have examined myself to see if I may have racist tendencies. I never thought I did, but finding that that she had sex with a black man somehow bothered me much more than the fact she was screwing him for drugs.





ThePheonix said:


> Dawg, you're being too hard on yourself. It kinda human nature to get extremely angry when a guy is banging your old lady. If he's black and you get extremely angry, that doesn't make you racist.


Same situation here - I've not posted my experience of infidelity in a thread, but in 2013, a black guy turned my wife's head after we'd been married just 4 years.
Don't know the full extent of White Rose's attraction, but for my wife, it was _definately _more the physical-aspects rather than the cultural side. She did very little trickle-truthing and when we talked and I asked all the usual stuff, she's a woman who doesn't hold back.

Because I'm very good (or is it bad?) at compartmentalizing things, her OM being black didn't make it any worse for me...

I guess the first thing that did enter my thoughts were what a typically stereotypical thing for a white guy to think would be....and I'm sure everyone knows what I mean.


----------



## MattMatt

S&W500 said:


> Same situation here - I've not posted my experience of infidelity in a thread, but in 2013, a black guy turned my wife's head after we'd been married just 4 years.
> Don't know the full extent of White Rose's attraction, but for my wife, it was _definately _more the physical-aspects rather than the cultural side. She did very little trickle-truthing and when we talked and I asked all the usual stuff, she's a woman who doesn't hold back.
> 
> Because I'm very good (or is it bad?) at compartmentalizing things, her OM being black didn't make it any worse for me...
> 
> I guess the first thing that did enter my thoughts were what a typically stereotypical thing for a white guy to think would be....and I'm sure everyone knows what I mean.


What? Oh, yes. Does he like Reggae music. Yep. Killer question, that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wmn1

I agree with the Phoenix, Bashful. Completely. 

Our society has been built on stereotypes, whether right or wrong and this one happens to be one.

I will give you another story. One of my friend's wives (now ex of course) cheated on him with a black guy afetr years and years of telling him she wasn't attracted to anybody but him and wasn't attracted to minorities (to me this isn't racist, it's a personal preference. Some people are simply not attracted to a certain type of look like for example I have never been attracted to toothpick thin women). However, when she cheated on him, it shook his world.

First it was the infidelity. Then it was that she betrayed her standards and it vastly expanded the field of people that she would consider cheating on him with. Of course it didn't help when he faced the OM and the OM called him racist for getting angry that his wife was cheating on him with this scumball. He proceeded to kick OM's ass immediately.

So as Phoenix said, stop being hard on yourself


----------



## ConanHub

wmn1 said:


> I agree with the Phoenix, Bashful. Completely.
> 
> Our society has been built on stereotypes, whether right or wrong and this one happens to be one.
> 
> I will give you another story. One of my friend's wives (now ex of course) cheated on him with a black guy afetr years and years of telling him she wasn't attracted to anybody but him and wasn't attracted to minorities (to me this isn't racist, it's a personal preference. Some people are simply not attracted to a certain type of look like for example I have never been attracted to toothpick thin women). However, when she cheated on him, it shook his world.
> 
> First it was the infidelity. Then it was that she betrayed her standards and it vastly expanded the field of people that she would consider cheating on him with. Of course it didn't help when he faced the OM and the OM called him racist for getting angry that his wife was cheating on him with this scumball. He proceeded to kick OM's ass immediately.
> 
> So as Phoenix said, stop being hard on yourself


LOL! What a dumbass!! Cheating knows no color.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acoa

BashfulBull said:


> One of the meth dealers my ex wife was banging for her fix was a black guy, and I have to admit to you all that when she told me I was extremely angry about this.
> 
> Since then I have examined myself to see if I may have racist tendencies. I never thought I did, but finding that that she had sex with a black man somehow bothered me much more than the fact she was screwing him for drugs.


I think that is racial prejudice, not racist. prejudice can lead to racisism, or make a group tolerant or ignorant of it. 

It's good you noticed it, and are not defending it. If you defended the fact it bothered you more, then that's where it moves into racism / bigotry.


----------



## ThePheonix

S&W500 said:


> I guess the first thing that did enter my thoughts were what a typically stereotypical thing for a white guy to think would be....and I'm sure everyone knows what I mean.


On average, that's basically a myth. In any case, she'd be my ex-wife. That's about the size of it.


----------



## ThePheonix

Acoa said:


> I think that is racial prejudice, not racist. prejudice can lead to racisism, or make a group tolerant or ignorant of it.
> 
> It's good you noticed it, and are not defending it. If you defended the fact it bothered you more, then that's where it moves into racism / bigotry.


I've got news for you my man. Every time someone mentions they are pissed off cuz their spouse banged a black person, doesn't make them a racist. (unless of course its ok if the bangee is white)


----------



## ConanHub

ThePheonix said:


> On average, that's basically a myth. In any case, she'd be my ex-wife. That's about the size of it.


Amen to that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Divinely Favored

ConanHub said:


> wmn1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with the Phoenix, Bashful. Completely.
> 
> Our society has been built on stereotypes, whether right or wrong and this one happens to be one.
> 
> I will give you another story. One of my friend's wives (now ex of course) cheated on him with a black guy afetr years and years of telling him she wasn't attracted to anybody but him and wasn't attracted to minorities (to me this isn't racist, it's a personal preference. Some people are simply not attracted to a certain type of look like for example I have never been attracted to toothpick thin women). However, when she cheated on him, it shook his world.
> 
> First it was the infidelity. Then it was that she betrayed her standards and it vastly expanded the field of people that she would consider cheating on him with. Of course it didn't help when he faced the OM and the OM called him racist for getting angry that his wife was cheating on him with this scumball. He proceeded to kick OM's ass immediately.
> 
> So as Phoenix said, stop being hard on yourself
> 
> 
> 
> LOL! What a dumbass!! Cheating knows no color.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

Just blood red......


----------



## Suspecting2014

WR, 

Do you have any plan to get Chris back so far?

At this point I belive you have to accep what you did, full extent, and it consecuencesm, so you could give Chris what he needs begore it is too late.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Suspecting2014 said:


> WR,
> 
> Do you have any plan to get Chris back so far?
> 
> At this point I belive you have to accep what you did, full extent, and it consecuencesm, so you could give Chris what he needs begore it is too late.


I have no plan to get Chris back at this stage, after he slept with me and CHEATING on his new GF who started sleeping with him before he was out of my house and still married he told me he slept with another woman 4 times when we first got divorced (but were still trying to work things out. He told me this via text after he slept with me which according to him he did not see as cheating and is still with that girl. So no I have no desire to get Chris back. I am working on myself and how to move forward, I am going to look at why I couldn't do what Chris wanted, tell me is it normal to call yourself a ***** and **** because you've had an affair or would that perhaps make someone not very keen on being intimate. I have found a wonderful therapist and have had a lot of useful advice here and will as above be working on me for me. Chris has made it clear he does not want to be with me anymore and for the first time in ages I am ok with this. I have a plan and have stopped beating myself up because I had an affair, it was a long time ago, I have forgiven myself and so have my two girls. I regret what I did and losing Chris and am truly remorseful. I am continuing with therapy and the forum as it has been really great and thanks to all who wrote constructive comments and critisism and hence got a reply, to the rest, enough said!


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

BashfulBull said:


> One of the meth dealers my ex wife was banging for her fix was a black guy, and I have to admit to you all that when she told me I was extremely angry about this.
> 
> Since then I have examined myself to see if I may have racist tendencies. I never thought I did, but finding that that she had sex with a black man somehow bothered me much more than the fact she was screwing him for drugs.


Then as you identified you have racist tendancies, perhaps there is a forum where racists can get help.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Mr Blunt said:


> EI’s husband B1 started a thread a few years ago and it is still being posted to in 2014. If you want some real helpful posts that pertain to some of your issues you should read this thread titled RECONCILLIATION. It is the longest thread on CWI and the best thread IMO. EI had a long term affair and she and B1 are doing REAL WELL and gaining every year. It is an amazing recovery that is still in progress but you can learn a lot from that thread if you really want to learn. *In addition you will gain if you take ACTIONS (Not just talk) but take actions as as EI has done.*
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html


Hi, R is now out of the question but I am going to read this, thanks so much.


----------



## NoChoice

WR,
Just remember going forward that honesty, truth and communication are absolutely critical. Without them you are destined to relive this scenario over and over. Carry that with you into your next relationship and you will have a chance at true happiness. Good luck to you.


----------



## MattMatt

It seems clear that Chris has been badly hurt to the extent that he is indulging in behaviour that might not be normal for Chris.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## manticore

MattMatt said:


> It seems clear that Chris has been badly hurt to the extent that he is indulging in behaviour that might not be normal for Chris.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed, but then to begin with his personality was not the kind that can forgive cheating behaviour, he was just supressing himslef for the greater good and now of course he have come to the point where the resentment and discomfort grew so much that it was impossible to had it supressed.

true to be told i have always think that men that reconcile have to suppress many of their basic male insticts one way or another, which change their bahaviour and personality in the long run or build in them until it explodes, that is why we heard about revenge affairs in previously loyal men that never though about cheating or men that become man *****s after they have been cheated


----------



## manticore

White Rose said:


> Then as you identified you have racist tendancies, perhaps there is a forum where racists can get help.


I always wonder why people have so much problem in understanding why this bothers them so much, maybe becuase people dont want to be marked as racist and can not accept differences in races (please note that I am nor white nor black)

black race was in the past categorized as inferior, for many centuries that was a mentality that existed we like it or not is a fact, so now many black man enjoy the let's say "revenge" of stealing from white men their women (in my opinnion probably a trauma inherited form their parents) (of course it has not to be necessary in the field of sex, it can be professional or money related too), you may disagree with me, but the fact that there are many OMs that brag about seducing white women says that it focus and causes a effects in both sides (the black men that brags of seducing white wives from their white husbands as Chris and Missthelove2013 OM's) and the white men that feel it as a plus in the humilaton departament (because they know these men feel and extra rush for seducing their suburban white wives, and of course there also exist the estereotypes as black men having bigger tools adding insult to the offense in the shallow mentalilty of how their wives give up their family and husband for a bigger d*ck)

you may think that I am wrong but if that is the case then why Black OMs tend to brag of breaking white wives as chris OM did instead of just saying married women


----------



## Suspecting2014

White Rose said:


> I have no plan to get Chris back at this stage, after he slept with me and CHEATING on his new GF who started sleeping with him before he was out of my house and still married he told me he slept with another woman 4 times when we first got divorced (but were still trying to work things out. He told me this via text after he slept with me which according to him he did not see as cheating and is still with that girl. *So no I have no desire to get Chris back. I am working on myself and how to move forward*, I am going to look at why I couldn't do what Chris wanted, tell me is it normal to call yourself a ***** and **** because you've had an affair or would that perhaps make someone not very keen on being intimate. *I have found a wonderful therapist and have had a lot of useful advice here and will as above be working on me for me*. *Chris has made it clear he does not want to be with me anymore and for the first time in ages I am ok with this*. *I have a plan and have stopped beating myself up because I had an affair, it was a long time ago, I have forgiven myself and so have my two girls*. I regret what I did and losing Chris and am truly remorseful. I am continuing with therapy and the forum as it has been really great and thanks to all who wrote constructive comments and critisism and hence got a reply, to the rest, enough said!



WR

I ma glad that you have started to move on, it is time for you to heal!

I wish you find what you are looking for in terapy.

Keep posting if you feel like.


Good luck


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Good for you White rose for moving on. The damage was done long ago, and now you have to learn and grow. Chris is now not the type of guy you should want. His choices, his actions, and how he responds, is for him to own. You can only beat yourself for so long. You are not responsible for how Chris behaves, he is the one who let go of his integrity, and I am sure you saw yourself responsible for his actions. I think your starting to see otherwise. 

I hope you the best, and I hope you find some happiness again. Chris is not your only choice for happiness. It should come from within first, and you will find others to share it with. Learn to be independent, and more self-aware. You will see that there is happiness without him, and you should detach from Chris. keep it platonic and amicable as possible.


----------



## MattMatt

In fairness to Chris after my wife cheated on me I began behaving in ways that were not normal for me. Way too much drinking and an affair of my own.

My wife realised how 'broken' what had happened had left me and she used her skills as a psychologist and counsellor to help me.

I believe that Chris as well as White Rose and their daughters need counselling IC,couples and family.

I think that on some level my wife realised her affair would hurt me, but she hadn't realised just how badly it would affect me.

I think maybe White Rose also made that same mistake with Chris. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

I'm glad to hear that you have a great therapist with whom you're satisfied.

May I ask if your daughters have also been to therapy? If not, I'd strongly recommend it, it might help them greatly!

Best wishes to all of you


----------



## seasalt

White Rose,

After reading your posts about why you cheated and with whom you did it looks like you're the true racist. How does that feel?

Seasalt


----------



## MattMatt

seasalt said:


> White Rose,
> 
> After reading your posts about why you cheated and with whom you did it looks like you're the true racist. How does that feel?
> 
> Seasalt


Probably it makes her feel as confused as your comment makes me feel.:scratchhead:

:wtf:


----------



## NoChoice

I have considered what manticore said about getting revenge on white men by stealing their women. It sounds plausible if not misdirected. If they are trying to prove their superiority over white men how is that accomplished by being a scumbag?

ETA: Anyone who takes the wife of another man is a scumbag, regardless of the color of their skin.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

MattMatt said:


> In fairness to Chris after my wife cheated on me I began behaving in ways that were not normal for me. Way too much drinking and an affair of my own.
> 
> My wife realised how 'broken' what had happened had left me and she used her skills as a psychologist and counsellor to help me.
> 
> I believe that Chris as well as White Rose and their daughters need counselling IC,couples and family.
> 
> I think that on some level my wife realised her affair would hurt me, but she hadn't realised just how badly it would affect me.
> 
> I think maybe White Rose also made that same mistake with Chris.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



True, but he should of seek help on his own. He cheated on his current gf, with his wife, sounds weird I know. He may be keeping White rose hooked if the relationship with his gf fails. It is biological, minimizing your risk, looking after your own interests first. It is useful for survival.

I am happy that White rose is changing for the better, having self-awareness, and can put her time and energy into repairing herself. I am happy to that she is taking herself out of the game. More time to be introspective, more time to bond with her daughters, and more time to work on herself. She is learning she has to be healthy in order to be in a relationship. Her and Chris's chapter might be over, but she still has another chapter in her book.


----------



## S&W500

manticore said:


> I always wonder why people have so much problem in understanding why this bothers them so much, maybe becuase people dont want to be marked as racist and can not accept differences in races (please note that I am nor white nor black)
> 
> black race was in the past categorized as inferior, for many centuries that was a mentality that existed we like it or not is a fact, so now many black man enjoy the let's say "revenge" of stealing from white men their women (in my opinnion probably a trauma inherited form their parents) (of course it has not to be necessary in the field of sex, it can be professional or money related too), you may disagree with me, but the fact that there are many OMs that brag about seducing white women says that it focus and causes an effects in both sides (the black men that brags of seducing white wives from their white husbands as Chris and Missthelove2013 OM's) and the white men that feel it as a plus in the humilaton departament (because they know these men feel and extra rush for seducing their suburban white wives, and of course there also exist the estereotypes as black men having bigger tools adding insult to the offense in the shallow mentalilty of how their wives give up their family and husband for a bigger d*ck)
> 
> You may think that I am wrong but if that is the case then why Black OMs tend to brag of breaking white wives as Chris OM did instead of just saying married women


Interesting post Manticore, but slightly bordering on 'myth'?
It clearly happens but I can say from personal experience, that my wife having the affair with her OM (black), didn't cause me anymore or less pain or humiliation than if it had been an OM (white) - regardless of c0ck-size.
(_actually, I'd be more hurt/humiliated if she'd cheated on me with a guy who was less-endowed_)

In fact, I had a moment a few weeks back when a friend of mine, introduced me to her daughter - a totally stunning redhead and was 7 months pregnant with her black Bf's child.
But because the guy was actually a straight-up, nice dude....it didn't trigger me whatsoever. :scratchhead:

The black-man/white-woman scenario is rife within Internet pornaography sites....and I wonder whether this has driven those particular feelings upwards within black OMs and white husbands that you mentioned above in your paragraph 'causes and effects'.


----------



## manticore

NoChoice said:


> I have considered what manticore said about getting revenge on white men by stealing their women. It sounds plausible if not misdirected. If they are trying to prove their *superiority over white men how is that accomplished by being a scumbag?
> 
> ETA: Anyone who takes the wife of another man is a scumbag, regardless of the color of their skin.*


But that is the point isn't it, I mean scum bags come in all colors and forms whites, blacks, latins, asiatics, obviously I am not talking of all black men, I am talking a specific scumbag portion in their population, is not like all black men have as hoby going in their life destroying other people's marrriages. 

my point is that the fact that their objetive is also directed to certain race seems to have a principle, I mean lets be honest, all of us know here that there is even certain fetish that is directed preicisely to that special mix, Black men cuckolding white men and they even record with hidden cameras their conquest to later put it on the net, but why is that there is not black men with asians or latin wives, or white OMs with with any other race, it seems that the particular obssesion comes to that specific mixture, even as I write this, I took my time to googling all the other mixes with very little to none results in my search, while *"black other man with white wife"* throw me many thousands results


----------



## ThePheonix

If you guys don't think white guys don't go around bragging about doing other mens wives you're sadly mistaken. If you don't thinks there are a number of white guys who have done some black wives or black girls don't hit on white guys, I've got news for you about that to. If your a white guy and want to get your azz beat to a fare the well, go to a predominately black bar and start hitting on the black girls. Same with a black guy at a ******* bar. 
Like it or not, interracial sex is thought to be taboo, taboo is often strangely exciting and intriguing and some people are particularly attracted to it. Simple as that. You can do internet searches on "neighbors wives", "sister-in-sex", "watching my wife with other men" and the like and get thousands of results. 
Despite the glamor associated with inter-racial sex, the typical 40 year old black guy, is like the typical white guy, Hispanic, or Asian; an overweight, out of shape lard azz.


----------



## manticore

ThePheonix said:


> If you guys don't think white guys don't go around bragging about doing other mens wives you're sadly mistaken.


Nobody said that, obviously as a previously said, scumbags comes in all shapes and colors, but we are talking that normally other races dont brag about bedding married women form a specific race, they just brag about bedding married women, taht is the main difference


----------



## oneMOreguy

boy...we have gotten way off track.......try to remember that this is a thread (per Chris' request) to help WR with improving herself....

WR........none of my advice was geared toward getting you and chris back together. And I think anyone who post in that light is doing an injustice to the situation. That is why I am glad that you responded that you are also not improving your approach to life to try to get chris back.

WR......you deserve a good healthy life filled with love. All of your efforts should be toward that........and so should Chris' (for himself) for that matter. Together, apart??? who knows and who cares at this point. 

Keep digging into yourself and why you make decisions.....and you will find good answers if you are honest with yourself.....but I warn you it will be painful.........analyzing our own behavior is not an easy task.


----------



## jim123

White Rose said:


> Then as you identified you have racist tendancies, perhaps there is a forum where racists can get help.


Racism is defined as judging someone based on skin color and not based on the person or character of that person.

You relationship was only skin deep too. It was not based on him as a person. 

You should also look at yourself too.


----------



## wmn1

jim123 said:


> Racism is defined as judging someone based on skin color and not based on the person or character of that person.
> 
> You relationship was only skin deep too. It was not based on him as a person.
> 
> You should also look at yourself too.



I like wikipedia's definition on this;

Racism consists of both prejudice and discrimination based in social perceptions of biological differences between peoples. It often takes the form of social actions, practices or beliefs, or political systems that consider different races to be ranked as inherently superior or inferior to each other, based on presumed shared inheritable traits, abilities, or qualities. It may also hold that members of different races should be treated differently.[1][2][3]

Among the questions about how to define racism are the question of whether to include forms of discrimination that are unintentional, such as making assumptions about preferences or abilities of others based on racial stereotypes, whether to include symbolic or institutionalized forms of discrimination such as the circulation of ethnic stereotypes through the media, and whether to include the socio-political dynamics of social stratification that sometimes have a racial component.



The desire to either pursue or repel somebody based on their race is not necessarily 'racism' by this definition. I know many people of most races who refuse to date outside of their own race because they are mostly attracted to people of their own race and these people are not racists. They are exercising their right to have a preference of who they go out with. Now if they are saying "I won't go out with a white or black person because their race is the scum of the earth or will do this or that because they are that race" then racism may play into it. 

WR may be a cheat and a gaslighter, but her desire to bang a black guy, as morally reprehensible her cheating was, doesn't qualify her to be a racist since she was married to and banging a white guy. It said more to her lack of morals rather than anything racist in nature.

Now the stereotypes that Manticore speaks of do exist big time. I hear it all the time and it's unfortunate but it does drive some people to do immoral things or get racially more sensitive. It is reality

By the way, I am in no way defending Chris' recent actions and am glad that WR is getting help for her issues. IMO, this marriage should have been dead a long time ago.


----------



## wmn1

NoChoice said:


> I have considered what manticore said about getting revenge on white men by stealing their women. It sounds plausible if not misdirected. If they are trying to prove their superiority over white men how is that accomplished by being a scumbag?
> 
> ETA: Anyone who takes the wife of another man is a scumbag, regardless of the color of their skin.


I agree with you. The one thing though is that some people's effort to show superiority doesn't reflect on what type of person they are, in other words, I work with a number of people who are always trying to show they are superior and they are scum too. 

I gues sin the end, trying to be superior doesn't always mean that one is a class or moral guy to begin with. They aren't mutually exclusive.

However, your point is a good one. By doing a sexual conquest, they are morally decrepit and are actually showing inferiority.


----------



## MattMatt

iwontliedown said:


> White Rose: "after he slept with me and CHEATING on his new GF who started sleeping with him before he was out of my house and still married....."
> 
> You think he was cheating on his GF? No! He was cheating on you!


That would be cheating on the both of them.

This can't end well.


----------



## NoChoice

ThePheonix said:


> If you guys don't think white guys don't go around bragging about doing other mens wives you're sadly mistaken. If you don't thinks there are a number of white guys who have done some black wives or black girls don't hit on white guys, I've got news for you about that to. If your a white guy and want to get your azz beat to a fare the well, go to a predominately black bar and start hitting on the black girls. Same with a black guy at a ******* bar.
> Like it or not, interracial sex is thought to be taboo, taboo is often strangely exciting and intriguing and some people are particularly attracted to it. Simple as that. You can do internet searches on "neighbors wives", "sister-in-sex", "watching my wife with other men" and the like and get thousands of results.
> Despite the glamor associated with inter-racial sex, the typical 40 year old black guy, is like the typical white guy, Hispanic, or Asian; an overweight, out of shape lard azz.


uh-humm... I prefer Mr. Lard azz thank you.:rofl:


----------



## ThePheonix

jim123 said:


> Racism is defined as judging someone based on skin color and not based on the person or character of that person.


If someone took a survey in respect to WR's comments about who's a racist and who ain't, they'd be saying:


----------



## Chris989

MattMatt said:


> That would be cheating on the both of them.
> 
> This can't end well.


Some of this isn't correct, some is, but it's complicated and WR is not telling anywhere like the full story.

I'll leave it to her to correct these things if she wishes, but I would ask that the racism argument is left for another thread. It really doesn't help anyone.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

MattMatt said:


> It seems clear that Chris has been badly hurt to the extent that he is indulging in behaviour that might not be normal for Chris.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It isnt at all, he is conflicted


----------



## MattMatt

White Rose said:


> It isnt at all, he is conflicted


Well, that's hardly surprising, after all that he has been put through.

How about couple's therapy, family therapy for you all, including the girls?


----------



## ThePheonix

White Rose said:


> It isnt at all, he is conflicted





MattMatt said:


> Well, that's hardly surprising, after all that he has been put through.


Ya'll making it way too complicated. It's like the "snowbirds" in Michigan and Wisconsin going to Florida for the winter. They do because the climate is better.


----------



## manticore

MattMatt said:


> How about couple's therapy, family therapy for you all, including the girls?


Don't think this is a good idea for now (and maybe never), they have both expressed that for now they don't want to be in a relationship with each other, and they have what can be considered and amicable realtionship with no problems realted to custody, so put them to face circumstances which may lead to conflict for now is probably not good idea.

I think for now IC is enough and if they decide t give it a shot when many of their internal conficts are resolved or answered then they may try couple's thrapy


----------



## jim123

manticore said:


> Don't think this is a good idea for now (and maybe never), they have both expressed that for now they don't want to be in a relationship with each other, and they have what can be considered and amicable realtionship with no problems realted to custody, so put them to face circumstances which may lead to conflict for now is probably not good idea.
> 
> I think for now IC is enough and if they decide t give it a shot when many of their internal conficts are resolved or answered then they may try couple's thrapy


They can use help to co parent.


----------



## jim123

wmn1 said:


> I like wikipedia's definition on this;
> 
> Racism consists of both prejudice and discrimination based in social perceptions of biological differences between peoples. It often takes the form of social actions, practices or beliefs, or political systems that consider different races to be ranked as inherently superior or inferior to each other, based on presumed shared inheritable traits, abilities, or qualities. It may also hold that members of different races should be treated differently.[1][2][3]
> 
> Among the questions about how to define racism are the question of whether to include forms of discrimination that are unintentional, such as making assumptions about preferences or abilities of others based on racial stereotypes, whether to include symbolic or institutionalized forms of discrimination such as the circulation of ethnic stereotypes through the media, and whether to include the socio-political dynamics of social stratification that sometimes have a racial component.
> 
> 
> 
> The desire to either pursue or repel somebody based on their race is not necessarily 'racism' by this definition. I know many people of most races who refuse to date outside of their own race because they are mostly attracted to people of their own race and these people are not racists. They are exercising their right to have a preference of who they go out with. Now if they are saying "I won't go out with a white or black person because their race is the scum of the earth or will do this or that because they are that race" then racism may play into it.
> 
> WR may be a cheat and a gaslighter, but her desire to bang a black guy, as morally reprehensible her cheating was, doesn't qualify her to be a racist since she was married to and banging a white guy. It said more to her lack of morals rather than anything racist in nature.
> 
> Now the stereotypes that Manticore speaks of do exist big time. I hear it all the time and it's unfortunate but it does drive some people to do immoral things or get racially more sensitive. It is reality
> 
> By the way, I am in no way defending Chris' recent actions and am glad that WR is getting help for her issues. IMO, this marriage should have been dead a long time ago.


Racist is a tough word but it does not qualify her as a good person either.

Yesterday was my son's 18th birthday and that as much led to the post. My kids are adopted and my son is bi racial.

We talked about a lot of things yesterday, some for the first time.

I can only hope that is he judged by the type person he and finds someone who truly loves him for who is he.

He was not put on this planet for some middle age white woman to fill nothing more than a sexual fantasy. My son is an actual person and I do see so much as this behavior as being an extension of all this.


----------



## ThePheonix

jim123 said:


> He was not put on this planet for some middle age white woman to fill nothing more than a sexual fantasy.


I don't know how old your son is, but if he's much passed his mid teens, I'd bet he hopes it does happen.  At any rate, I don't think you have to worry that there's a major conspiracy and plan among middle aged white women to seduce your son.


----------



## MattMatt

manticore said:


> Don't think this is a good idea for now (and maybe never), they have both expressed that for now they don't want to be in a relationship with each other, and they have what can be considered and amicable realtionship with no problems realted to custody, so put them to face circumstances which may lead to conflict for now is probably not good idea.
> 
> I think for now IC is enough and if they decide t give it a shot when many of their internal conficts are resolved or answered then they may try couple's thrapy


Talking Therapy can be used for reconciliation or for a controlled disengagement. And to sort out co-parenting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

ThePheonix said:


> I don't know how old your son is, but if he's much passed his mid teens, I'd bet he hopes it does happen.  At any rate, I don't think you have to worry that there's a major conspiracy and plan among middle aged white women to seduce your son.


On his 18th birthday, he was 18.

He has a pretty good head on his shoulders and enough girls where I do think he would have much use for someone like that.

I do not want either of my kids to be a WS or a BS.

Anytime a WW picks a man with such a lack a character you should be concern. 

This is a man who has six different kids with six different women.
The OP has two teenage D's. She thought he was a bad boy.

The issues with White Rose run very deep and can impact her children.


----------



## oneMOreguy

White Rose said:


> It isnt at all, he is conflicted


...no, he is in extreme pain.......that is some of the truth you need to be seeing. He is in enough pain that he is no longer the person that you married. Your actions murdered the marriage, the person you used to be, and the person that your husband used to be.

This is part of why I suggested you get beyond just the emotional feelings of guilt etc, and really come to be able to face the cold hard facts of what happened from your actions over a long period of time. I warned you it would be painful.....but it really is needed for making yourself feel good about yourself again without doing a bunch of lying to yourself....which you know never really works out well long term.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Mr.Fisty said:


> Good for you White rose for moving on. The damage was done long ago, and now you have to learn and grow. Chris is now not the type of guy you should want. His choices, his actions, and how he responds, is for him to own. You can only beat yourself for so long. You are not responsible for how Chris behaves, he is the one who let go of his integrity, and I am sure you saw yourself responsible for his actions. I think your starting to see otherwise.
> 
> I hope you the best, and I hope you find some happiness again. Chris is not your only choice for happiness. It should come from within first, and you will find others to share it with. Learn to be independent, and more self-aware. You will see that there is happiness without him, and you should detach from Chris. keep it platonic and amicable as possible.


I miss him so much, he is here a lot for the kids so I'm seeing him a lot. He should be living nearer soon so probably I won't see him so much then. I'm struggling getting things done at the moment. It will ease I'm sure.


----------



## warlock07

MattMatt said:


> In fairness to Chris after my wife cheated on me I began behaving in ways that were not normal for me. Way too much drinking and an affair of my own.
> 
> My wife realised how 'broken' what had happened had left me and she used her skills as a psychologist and counsellor to help me.
> 
> I believe that Chris as well as White Rose and their daughters need counselling IC,couples and family.
> 
> I think that on some level my wife realised her affair would hurt me, but she hadn't realised just how badly it would affect me.
> 
> I think maybe White Rose also made that same mistake with Chris.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



:banghead::banghead::banghead:


----------



## 2ntnuf

Something for you WR. I don't know if this is you. I just thought it couldn't hurt to read it and find out for yourself. 

The Critical Inner Voice Explained


----------



## 2ntnuf

Helen Fisher: Why we love, why we cheat | Talk Video | TED.com

Interesting.


----------



## GusPolinski

MattMatt said:


> In fairness to Chris after my wife cheated on me I began behaving in ways that were not normal for me. Way too much drinking and an affair of my own.
> 
> My wife realised how 'broken' what had happened had left me and she used her skills as a psychologist and counsellor to help me.
> 
> I believe that Chris as well as White Rose and their daughters need counselling IC,couples and family.
> 
> I think that on some level my wife realised her affair would hurt me, but she hadn't realised just how badly it would affect me.
> 
> I think maybe White Rose also made that same mistake with Chris.


Are there no divorce lawyers where you live?


----------



## GusPolinski

White Rose said:


> Then as you identified you have racist tendancies, perhaps there is a forum where racists can get help.


Not sure why anyone would want help w/ being "OK" w/ such a thing, but OK...


----------



## As'laDain

GusPolinski said:


> Not sure why anyone would want help w/ being "OK" w/ such a thing, but OK...


its not wanting to be ok with it that would help. its acknowledging it so that you can get passed it. if you dont acknowledge it, you wont think about why you are racist, etc. 


kinda like my anxiety. i couldnt get better until i acknowledged it and accepted it. after i did, i was able to incorporate that part of me into my life in a productive way. i actively took steps to deal with my anxiety. 

for someone who is racist, they have to accept that they are, and find out why. then actively take steps that will correct it. 

this is why they would want to accept it. not to be "ok" with it, but to accept it and acknowledge it so that they can realistically fix it.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By White Rose
> I am working on myself and how to move forward
> I have found a wonderful therapist and have had a lot of useful advice here and will as above be working on me for me
> I have a plan and have stopped beating myself up because I had an affair, it was a long time ago,* I have forgiven myself and so have my two girls*. I regret what I did and losing Chris and am truly remorseful. I am continuing with therapy and the forum as it has been really great…


WR
You are on the right track to getting better! I think that what you said (I have forgiven myself and so have my two girls) is HUGE! That is a ginormous positive because you have to get relief from that guilt or you will not progress much if any. Your daughters forgiving you mean that they will not have to fight the bitterness that comes with resentments.

You getting you and your children better is your number one priority. Hopefully you will keep us updated as you can be a very positive help to others after you keep improving for several years.


----------



## As'laDain

i agree with blunt. 

WR, your on the right track. 


so, what can we help you with? is there anything that is still confusing to you? it could even be your own emotional reactions to things. you have to understand where you come from if you are to really accept yourself. changing behavior in of itself is not enough without understanding.


----------



## Chris989

I'm sorry but WR still doesn't understand what she's done. She doesn't understand the cruelty aspect of it all and why she was so deliberately, intensely, cruel.

I've just remembered a horrible aspect of what she did this morning and asked her why and she simply didn't get it.

How can someone forgive themselves when they don't know what they've done - or, crucially, why?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Chris989 said:


> I'm sorry but WR still doesn't understand what she's done. She doesn't understand the cruelty aspect of it all and why she was so deliberately, intensely, cruel.
> 
> I've just remembered a horrible aspect of what she did this morning and asked her why and she simply didn't get it.
> 
> How can someone forgive themselves when they don't know what they've done - or, crucially, why?


This is exactly my issue with Zanne on Unraveling 24 years thread. She flat out refuses to even face that part of her choices and her arrogance and flippant attitude about it infuriates me so I have not gone soft on her at all, but I for White Rose she has seemed more remorseful and seems to be trying to wrap her head around the damage she has caused. For what it is worth I see a difference between them.


----------



## Chris989

Blossom Leigh said:


> This is exactly my issue with Zanne on Unraveling 24 years thread. She flat out refuses to even face that part of her choices and her arrogance and flippant attitude about it infuriates me so I have not gone soft on her at all, but I for White Rose she has seemed more remorseful and seems to be trying to wrap her head around the damage she has caused. For what it is worth I see a difference between them.


I totally agree and believe she really wants to fix this now.

I need to let this thing play out with my new girlfriend, but WR also needs to fix herself for her own good.

I care deeply about her still and want to help her with that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I'm not happy about the girlfriend Chris.

I think for your own sake you need to clear out the rif raft.

But I am glad you see WR and Zanne as different.

And I understand the pain first hand that led to your choice.

Though today I would have chosen different.


----------



## warlock07

Chris989 said:


> I'm sorry but WR still doesn't understand what she's done. She doesn't understand the cruelty aspect of it all and why she was so deliberately, intensely, cruel.
> 
> I've just remembered a horrible aspect of what she did this morning and asked her why and she simply didn't get it.
> 
> How can someone forgive themselves when they don't know what they've done - or, crucially, why?


I think she is incapable to do that emotionally. She never developed that part or had to all these years. Emotional intelligence or whatever it is called regarding how this affects you, she lacks it. She won't know what she won't know. 

She know that it hurts you and she wants to make it better but she cannot actually understand how it is affecting you. She doesn't "get it". If she did at any level, she wouldn't have done it , probably


----------



## Augusto

Chris989 said:


> I totally agree and believe she really wants to fix this now.
> 
> I need to let this thing play out with my new girlfriend, but WR also needs to fix herself for her own good.
> 
> I care deeply about her still and want to help her with that.




Chis,

have you considered that she may not be able to fix herself as long as you are "playing it out"? What would be her incentive here? You need to end this now. You are making her into plan B and it screams revenge. I know that I was plan b but I chose to be the better person through all of this and not make her feel what I felt. You either end it now with divorce or fix your marriage. Because to me, you seem just as screwed up as your wife and are probably not in the right frame of mind to make a decision on your waiting game with your girlfriend.


----------



## Augusto

Blossom Leigh said:


> I'm not happy about the girlfriend Chris.
> 
> I think for your own sake you need to clear out the rif raft.
> 
> But I am glad you see WR and Zanne as different.
> 
> And I understand the pain first hand that led to your choice.
> 
> Though today I would have chosen different.


that is my problem.......if he is aware that she really wants to fix this, what is he still doing being with this other lady other than making WR into plan b?


----------



## Chris989

Augusto said:


> Chis,
> 
> have you considered that she may not be able to fix herself as long as you are "playing it out"? What would be her incentive here? You need to end this now. You are making her into plan B and it screams revenge. I know that I was plan b but I chose to be the better person through all of this and not make her feel what I felt. You either end it now with divorce or fix your marriage. Because to me, you seem just as screwed up as your wife and are probably not in the right frame of mind to make a decision on your waiting game with your girlfriend.


I understand your comments; I am not asking WR to fix herself for "us" as that is over. I am asking her to fix herself for her.

Whatever the future holds, I don't know - but WR has done me irreparable damage and I will no longer amend my plans to help her beyond talking things through and supporting her where possible.

Our paths may cross again in the future from a relationship perspective but this is not my aim and it shouldn't be hers.


----------



## RV9

I was in jail for few days. I met rapists who said that they have forgiven themselves. Do the victims forgive them?


----------



## bfree

Blossom Leigh said:


> I'm not happy about the girlfriend Chris.
> 
> I think for your own sake you need to clear out the rif raft.
> 
> But I am glad you see WR and Zanne as different.
> 
> And I understand the pain first hand that led to your choice.
> 
> Though today I would have chosen different.


The only difference I see between WR and Zanne is that WR is no longer involved with her affair partner. It has given her a little perspective, at least from her vantage point. I'm not sure she'll ever have enough empathy to truly understand the impact this has had on Chris. It takes a special person willing to put forth a huge effort to really "get it." I don't see that willingness from WR...yet.


----------



## MattMatt

GusPolinski said:


> Are there no divorce lawyers where you live?


Lots. But I decided I didn't want one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Chris989 said:


> I'm sorry but WR still doesn't understand what she's done. She doesn't understand the cruelty aspect of it all and why she was so deliberately, intensely, cruel.
> 
> I've just remembered a horrible aspect of what she did this morning and asked her why and she simply didn't get it.
> 
> How can someone forgive themselves when they don't know what they've done - or, crucially, why?


You know what's really bad, Chris? 

WR did not deliberately hurt you. She did things that hurt you without any thought ato the consequences. And to my mind that might even be worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf

Chris989 said:


> I understand your comments; I am not asking WR to fix herself for "us" as that is over. I am asking her to fix herself for her.
> 
> Whatever the future holds, I don't know - but WR has done me irreparable damage and I will no longer amend my plans to help her beyond talking things through and supporting her where possible.
> 
> *Our paths may cross again in the future from a relationship perspective but this is not my aim and it shouldn't be hers.*


WR, are you here to reconcile, add to healing or just to beat yourself up? I don't see how this place is helping you. Maybe you are learning something from reading other's stories? I just find it near impossible to see any way that you will be able to reconcile at this time. 

I really believe the healthiest choice is for you to go to a counselor, preferably a doctor of psychology/psychiatry and have them help. I believe somewhere in this thread, you related that you are seeing someone? I hope you are. I don't think you are going to get what you need here. 

My last two posts were not meant to hurt, but to help. ETA: Not that any of the others were meant to hurt you. That was never my intention. end ETA I have no clue if you understood that. I guess I was trying to help you get to the bottom of what the issue is, so you can start to rebuild. Maybe you don't want that? Maybe you haven't reconciled yourself to the fact that this is going pretty much nowhere and you need to get healthy and live? 

I'm hoping you get healthy and find love and happiness. I don't know what you hope happens.


----------



## GusPolinski

MattMatt said:


> You know what's really bad, Chris?
> 
> *WR did not deliberately hurt you.* She did things that hurt you without any thought ato the consequences. And to my mind that might even be worse.


Even when she went back to OM...?


----------



## 2ntnuf

It seems from Chris' own words that WR did not intentionally hurt him. According to him, she has no understanding of pain, hurt, empathy, sympathy, or love. Some of that is extrapolated from his words. Do you think she feels pain from him leaving her and spending time with his girlfriend? I thought so.


----------



## GusPolinski

2ntnuf said:


> It seems from Chris' own words that WR did not intentionally hurt him. According to him, she has no understanding of pain, hurt, empathy, sympathy, or love. Some of that is extrapolated from his words. *Do you think she feels pain from him leaving her and spending time with his girlfriend? I thought so.*


I'd think so, yes.


----------



## GusPolinski

As'laDain said:


> its not wanting to be ok with it that would help. its acknowledging it so that you can get passed it. if you dont acknowledge it, you wont think about why you are racist, etc.
> 
> 
> kinda like my anxiety. i couldnt get better until i acknowledged it and accepted it. after i did, i was able to incorporate that part of me into my life in a productive way. i actively took steps to deal with my anxiety.
> 
> for someone who is racist, they have to accept that they are, and find out why. then actively take steps that will correct it.
> 
> this is why they would want to accept it. not to be "ok" with it, but to accept it and acknowledge it so that they can realistically fix it.


Sorry, but I won't begrudge a BS for not being OK w/ any aspect of his or her spouse sleeping w/ someone else, and that's whether that someone else is white, black, red, yellow, green, blue, or orange. Or purple, even.

Now... if BB had shown up in the guy's yard in a ghost costume, a large, wooden "lowercase t" (South Park... LOL), and some gasoline, then yeah... I'd be the first guy to admit that he has a problem.


----------



## ThePheonix

Chris989 said:


> I'm sorry but WR still doesn't understand what she's done. She doesn't understand the cruelty aspect of it all and why she was so deliberately, intensely, cruel.
> 
> I've just remembered a horrible aspect of what she did this morning and asked her why and she simply didn't get it.
> 
> How can someone forgive themselves when they don't know what they've done - or, crucially, why?


I don't understand how you or anybody else could possibly see any value in keeping around someone that willfully grinds you to powder. I think you may be confusing, "she doesn't understand" with "she just doesn't give a sh-t" why she was so deliberately, intensely, cruel. 
She's not forgiving herself Dawg. She's never felt any real guilt to begin with. Disappointment that the plan backfired maybe, but not guilt. 
Remember, some people do not, ipso facto, behave oblivious to the damage they cause, but only according to their true nature.


----------



## 2ntnuf

ThePheonix said:


> I don't understand how you or anybody else could possibly see any value in keeping around someone that willfully grinds you to powder. I think you may be confusing, "she doesn't understand" with "she just doesn't give a sh-t" why she was so deliberately, intensely, cruel.
> She's not forgiving herself Dawg. She's never felt any real guilt to begin with. Disappointment that the plan backfired maybe, but not guilt.
> Remember, some people do not, ipso facto, behave oblivious to the damage they cause, but only according to their true nature.


Maybe he figures he can work some angle and do likewise? A sort of harem type thing, only a little less controlling. The thing that bothered me about his post was that part where he leaves the door open just a crack. His girlfriend must not know or something else. Doesn't seem healthy for a guy who was so devoted to reconciliation. We do change over a lifetime. Some of these things seem so core to each of us, I don't know how they can change.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Any reason why Chris doesn't just walk away for good and let WR fend for herself? 

Chris is apparently suffering from a major case of KISA plus deep down he cannot let WR go. Until he figures out how to move on himself and stop being in love with WR, he'll never have peace. 

I feel bad for his poor GF. I remember Chris's comments from about a year ago indicating he was the uber alpha with all the power, holding all the cards while trying to get WR to jump thru hoops to win him back. I think we all know that his plan was nothing like he thought it was, and that in reality he was the one who was held prisoner by his own inability to walk away.

This is NOT a slam against Chris. I'm hoping that he comes to the realization that he has never let go and still hasn't as of today. Until he can be honest with himself and see what is really going on, he'll never be able to have a real relationship.

Remember how Chris was made that "one post" to clarify a point or 2 and then was going to bow out? Obviously that didn't happen. Chris may be saying one thing, but by his actions he's telling everyone else something totally different. He cannot let go - yet.


----------



## 2ntnuf

:iagree: You put it into words better than I did.

ETA: And this is what is holding WR back from growing and moving forward with her life, IMO. They are harmful to each other at this point in their lives.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

2ntnuf said:


> WR, are you here to reconcile, add to healing or just to beat yourself up? I don't see how this place is helping you. Maybe you are learning something from reading other's stories? I just find it near impossible to see any way that you will be able to reconcile at this time.
> 
> I really believe the healthiest choice is for you to go to a counselor, preferably a doctor of psychology/psychiatry and have them help. I believe somewhere in this thread, you related that you are seeing someone? I hope you are. I don't think you are going to get what you need here.
> 
> My last two posts were not meant to hurt, but to help. ETA: Not that any of the others were meant to hurt you. That was never my intention. end ETA I have no clue if you understood that. I guess I was trying to help you get to the bottom of what the issue is, so you can start to rebuild. Maybe you don't want that? Maybe you haven't reconciled yourself to the fact that this is going pretty much nowhere and you need to get healthy and live?
> 
> I'm hoping you get healthy and find love and happiness. I don't know what you hope happens.


IMHO, while the "ghost of Chris" continues to linger around her, she'll never make any progress to fix herself. These 2 need to not only move on, but if possible never, ever see each other ever again. 

Even in Chris's last post, he said he has no interest in being with WR but...he says someday their paths may cross again and they may start dating again. Does that look like someone who is ready to walk away? NO.


----------



## 2ntnuf

:iagree: I believe they should do their best to move on. I don't think they should see each other. They have children who live with their mother, correct? Chris has to see them, correct? I can't remember their ages. I apologise. I don't know how they would handle that. This idea that someday something might just work is what is killing them. The only way that might ever happen is if they move on and don't see each other, heal deeply and change themselves, and then.....Wow, do you see how implausible that really is?


----------



## BetrayedDad

ThePheonix said:


> I think you may be confusing, "she doesn't understand" with "she just doesn't give a sh-t".


Took me a LONG time to come to this conclusion so I can understand Chris's confusion. Many sociopath's have a perceived niaveness too them. Most normal people brains aren't wired to think in such a deranged fashion. So your natural inclination is to think, "How can she not get how horrible what she did was? How could someone who loves me, do this to me? She MUST not understand!"

Sorry dude, she gets it. She's just INCAPIBLE of feeling guilt about it. She doesn't care if she hurts you Chris because the CHEATING doesn't bother her AT ALL. It feels great and she's addicted to it. She does however not want to upset you so as long as YOU don't find out, in her mind it's a victimless crime. She WILL NEVER be sorry she cheated on you, she's just sorry you found out about it. 

That's the remorse you think you're seeing. She may be "nice person" but she is completely and utterly morally bankrupt... Many a fake reconcilation is based on this common misunderstanding by BS's.


----------



## MattMatt

GusPolinski said:


> Even when she went back to OM...?


People in affairs seen to turn their minds off. It is bizarre bit often happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

2ntnuf said:


> :iagree: I believe they should do their best to move on. I don't think they should see each other. They have children who live with their mother, correct? Chris has to see them, correct? I can't remember their ages. I apologise. I don't know how they would handle that. This idea that someday something might just work is what is killing them. The only way that might ever happen is if they move on and don't see each other, heal deeply and change themselves, and then.....Wow, do you see how implausible that really is?


Of course it's implausible. For some reason, both seam to be holding out hope for this. How or why should either date anyone else for that matter? Neither would be worth a pint of piss to anyone else as long as there is this connection that they refuse to sever. IMHO, Chris is the one who really can't let go. I think WR would if Chris would.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

BetrayedDad said:


> Took me a LONG time to come to this conclusion so I can understand Chris's confusion. Many *sociopath*'s have a perceived niaveness too them. Most normal people brains aren't wired to think in such a deranged fashion. So your natural inclination is to think, "How can she not get how horrible what she did was? How could someone who loves me, do this to me? She MUST not understand!"
> 
> Sorry dude, she gets it. She's just INCAPIBLE of feeling guilt about it. She doesn't care if she hurts you Chris because the CHEATING doesn't bother her AT ALL. It feels great and she's addicted to it. She does however not want to upset you so as long as YOU don't find out, in her mind it's a victimless crime. She WILL NEVER be sorry she cheated on you, she's just sorry you found out about it.
> 
> That's the remorse you think you're seeing. She may be "nice person" but she is completely and utterly morally bankrupt... Many a fake reconcilation is based on this common misunderstanding by BS's.


This word is greatly overused on this forum. I think people take comfort in assigning a mental disorder to their WS in order help themselves feel better. IMHO, it's easier to deal with "he/she is a _________, so it's no surprise that he/she would do this to me". In most cases, the WS chose to cheat using a sound mind to make that decision. We can debate the whys, but more so than not a cheater is a sane person who is doing it for whatever reason.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Of course it's implausible. For some reason, both seam to be holding out hope for this. How or why should either date anyone else for that matter? Neither would be worth a pint of piss to anyone else as long as there is this connection that they refuse to sever. IMHO, Chris is the one who really can't let go. I think WR would if Chris would.


I think you have something there. Why would WR be holding on just because Chris is? Most don't do that. Maybe Chris needs to read that link I posted? Maybe he sees some fantasy marriage he created in his mind that was never real? Maybe he believes she is the best choice or was the best choice until this man came along and had sex with her, cementing the questions WR had about her own normal musings of greener grass on the other side of the fence? How does one disconnect themselves from this unrealistic view?


----------



## BetrayedDad

Plan 9 from OS said:


> This word is greatly overused on this forum. I think people take comfort in assigning a mental disorder to their WS in order help themselves feel better.


A sociopath is someone who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience. Sociopaths are interested only in their personal needs and desires, without concern for the effects of their behavior on others. You really don't think that applies in this situation? I know some people don't like "labels" but if you have a more accurate one, enlighten me.

I think a person who spends YEARS lying, cheating and knowlingly stabbing their spouse (ie the person they promised to love the most) in the back has to have a mental disorder. It doesn't mean you're not sane. It's just the inability to give a sh!t. I couldn't be so cruel and heartless. Most of them were broken years ago from bad childhoods, past abusive relationships, etc.

Nor do I take comfort in that. It's not an excuse to take someone back. In fact, it's all the more reason to dump them. People who lack any type of moral compass are broken at best and dangerous at worst. These toxic people will ruin their lives and the people around them for their own selfish reasons.


----------



## As'laDain

If WR is a sociopath, what does that make chris? He is not showing remorse either. He is cheating on his wife. Oh wait, the standards don't apply to him because, you know, he has a reason for it. She hurt him, he is broken, it's not as bad because he says the marriage is over, blah blah blah...

She isn't psycho. Neither is he.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Plan 9 from OS said:


> This word is greatly overused on this forum. I think people take comfort in assigning a mental disorder to their WS in order help themselves feel better. IMHO, it's easier to deal with "he/she is a _________, so it's no surprise that he/she would do this to me". In most cases, the WS chose to cheat using a sound mind to make that decision. We can debate the whys, but more so than not a cheater is a sane person who is doing it for whatever reason.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


----------



## carmen ohio

White Rose said:


> I have no plan to get Chris back at this stage, after he slept with me and CHEATING on his new GF who started sleeping with him before he was out of my house and still married he told me he slept with another woman 4 times when we first got divorced (but were still trying to work things out. He told me this via text after he slept with me which according to him he did not see as cheating and is still with that girl. So no I have no desire to get Chris back. I am working on myself and how to move forward, I am going to look at why I couldn't do what Chris wanted, tell me is it normal to call yourself a ***** and **** because you've had an affair or would that perhaps make someone not very keen on being intimate. I have found a wonderful therapist and have had a lot of useful advice here and will as above be working on me for me. Chris has made it clear he does not want to be with me anymore and for the first time in ages I am ok with this. I have a plan and have stopped beating myself up because I had an affair, it was a long time ago, *I have forgiven myself* and so have my two girls. I regret what I did and losing Chris and am truly remorseful. I am continuing with therapy and the forum as it has been really great and thanks to all who wrote constructive comments and critisism and hence got a reply, to the rest, enough said!





RV9 said:


> I was in jail for few days. *I met rapists who said that they have forgiven themselves. Do the victims forgive them?*


I was going to make this point, RV9, but you beat me to it.

The notion of _'forgiving'_ oneself has a New Age vibe to it -- like being one's own best friend (Being Your Own Best Friend - Guru Habits) or marrying oneself (Marry Yourself: Creating Sacred Vows for Self-Love).

It sounds clever but it's an oxymoron. Worse, some people use it as an excuse to not do right by the persons they've wronged. I hope White Rose isn't one of those people.


----------



## BetrayedDad

A sociopath is not a psychopath or insane. I think some people here don't understand what a sociopath is. Not every cheater is a sociopath but a good chunk of them almost certainly are. They aren't sorry at all and they continue to cheat for years and/or with multiple people without remorse. Normal people with a conscious don't act like that so call it whatever you want if you don't like the term sociopath. It is, what it is...


----------



## wmn1

As it seems that Chris stated that WR did not intentionally hurt him. because she has no no understanding of pain, hurt, empathy, sympathy, or love, then I have a few questions here;

1) Does Chris really believe this ? or is it a justification in order to paint his WW in a better life or save his self-esteem ?
2) If so and if true, then how the hel& does anybody here expect him to stick it out with her ?? To get hurt again ?? If she has a disorder where she is like Spock and can't empathize, then what do we expect him to do ? Stick with her the rest of his life getting abused while she gets to play out this disorder with other guys ? Or is he now a therapist who can help her through this stuff ?
3) Chris has clearly said it's over, so why not take him at his word and let him move on ?? and let her move on ? And if she does have this disorder, God help the next guy. I hope she gets the help she needs ...
4) I still stand by Chris in that, while I feel he should have waited until divorced to start seeing other people and he actually makes himself look worse as it could appear as a revenge affair, it is clear to me that Chris said "I am done" and moved on and not coming back. WR's affairs happened while she was trying to keep Chris as a husband and have her cake and eat it too. To me, this is worse. She was cheating while trying to keep the marriage. He was cheating just to get the heck out. Still wrong but not the same. 

It is amazing that there are people defending her as there is no defense. He doesn't deserve a free pass anymore either. I would be calling him St. Chris if he had exited the right way but he didn't. 



From me: Maybe Chris believes this and maybe it's true or not. I don't know. What I do know is if Chris is right and she has no understanding of pain


----------



## wmn1

sorry about the chopped up first sentence and accidentally using the word life instead of light. Typos


----------



## MattMatt

A cheater often doesn't understand the hurt they cause because they never intended to become a cheater in the first place. But they did and when they look at the smoking ruin of their marriage and family then they see and realise what they did. Sometimes too late for anything to be done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

BetrayedDad said:


> A sociopath is not a psychopath or insane. I think some people here don't understand what a sociopath is. Not every cheater is a sociopath but a good chunk of them almost certainly are. They aren't sorry at all and they continue to cheat for years and/or with multiple people without remorse. Normal people with a conscious don't act like that so call it whatever you want if you don't like the term sociopath. It is, what it is...


Have all these WS's at TAM been diagnosed professionally as being sociopaths, psychopaths, narcissists, or other disorders? Or are we talking about diagnoses via web MD or some other test you can find on the web or in Cosmo? Let's use Occam's razor and assume that in most cases these people to exhibit bad behavior towards their BS's and those who support the BS primarily. Apologies for the thread jack. 

Bad or questionable behavior does not mean someone has a disorder. People do bad things just because. No disorder needed.


----------



## vellocet

As'laDain said:


> If WR is a sociopath, what does that make chris? He is not showing remorse either. He is cheating on his wife. Oh wait, the standards don't apply to him because, you know, he has a reason for it. She hurt him, he is broken, it's not as bad because he says the marriage is over, blah blah blah...



I don't think most here think the standards don't apply to him. IMO, they certainly do.

But yes, he was the one that was devastated and he isn't thinking clearly. Yes, he is hurt, broken, and in case I missed something since reading Chris' posts, it looks like he is checking out. I'd have advised him to wait and not stoop to the lower level, but he did it. But yes, him saying the marriage is over does kind of make it not as bad(as long as he follows through and isn't fibbing), but I wouldn't separate what he did from what she did from a very far distance.


----------



## As'laDain

vellocet said:


> I don't think most here think the standards don't apply to him. IMO, they certainly do.
> 
> But yes, he was the one that was devastated and he isn't thinking clearly. Yes, he is hurt, broken, and in case I missed something since reading Chris' posts, it looks like he is checking out. I'd have advised him to wait and not stoop to the lower level, but he did it. But yes, him saying the marriage is over does kind of make it not as bad, but I wouldn't separate what he did from what she did from a very far distance.


he cheated for his own reasons. 
and there is a reason that he does not care what pain he is causing. he may say he cares, but only so much as any cheater. it does not stop him from doing it. 

the only difference is that people here understand where he is coming from, why he is doing it without regard to her feelings, etc. i dont think even WR really knows where she was coming from in her end of the deal, but she came from somewhere. she had some reason... 

none if it is justified, but its not much different either.


----------



## vellocet

And if Chris wasn't cheating, would you even be involved in this thread?

Reason I ask is, you seem to come to the defense of a lot of cheaters. So why not now defend him as well?


----------



## As'laDain

vellocet said:


> And if Chris wasn't cheating, would you even be involved in this thread?
> 
> Reason I ask is, you seem to come to the defense of a lot of cheaters. So why not now defend him as well?


defend her? defend him?

im just pointing out that they are *both* human.

ETA: i started posting here before i even knew who WR was... so, yeah, id still be involved in this thread.


----------



## vellocet

Ok, I see your earlier posts now. So for this thread, I withdraw that statement. My apologies.


----------



## oneMOreguy

MattMatt said:


> People in affairs seen to turn their minds off. It is bizarre bit often happens.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


....no....we just refuse to think of consequences.............maybe ws are just so arrogant that we think we could never be caught and held accountable.........I just don't know anymore.......ugghhhhh


----------



## As'laDain

oneMOreguy said:


> ....no....*we just refuse to think of consequences*.............maybe ws are just so arrogant that we think we could never be caught and held accountable.........I just don't know anymore.......ugghhhhh


bingo.


----------



## GusPolinski

MattMatt said:


> A cheater often doesn't understand the hurt they cause because they never intended to become a cheater in the first place.


I'd think that, once it does indeed _"happen"_, and the realization kicks in ("OMG... I'm a cheater!!!"), the next logical step would be to become determined to not get caught.

But once you're caught, and you're able to see -- with your own two eyes -- the pain and devastation that your selfish behavior has wrought... AND YOU GO BACK TO THE AP...?!?



MattMatt said:


> But they did and when they look at the smoking ruin of their marriage and family then they see and realise what they did. Sometimes too late for anything to be done.


All too true. It's sad, really. Chris stuck it out far, far longer than a great many of us would've. But, in the end, it was just too much for him.

Or, rather, *he didn't get enough from WR*.


----------



## oneMOreguy

and for those who think WR and Chris can be compared as equals with regards to cheating.........take the time to actual read thru Chris' posts in the past. There is really no comparison except for the use of the word "cheating" There are truly many different forms and degrees of cheating.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

There are many different forms and degrees of sin, but sin is sin.


----------



## GusPolinski

Plan 9 from OS said:


> This word is greatly overused on this forum. I think people take comfort in assigning a mental disorder to their WS in order help themselves feel better. IMHO, it's easier to deal with "he/she is a _________, so it's no surprise that he/she would do this to me". In most cases, the WS chose to cheat using a sound mind to make that decision. We can debate the whys, but more so than not a cheater is a sane person who is doing it for whatever reason.





GusPolinski said:


> :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


I said this (or something like it) before in another thread...

"It shouldn't matter if she's BPD, NPD, BD, or a member of the LAPD... all that matters is that she was down w/ the OPP."

90's hip hop reference FTW!!!

Aaaaanyway...

The terminology associated w/ each of these disorders is nothing more than a label used to describe a set of personality characteristics that make it all too easy for someone to indulge in entitled, selfish, short-sighted, and (sometimes) abusive behavior... and then justify the behavior.

In other words, because there *IS* a legitimate, clinically-recognized, "diagnosable", and semi-quantifiable condition associated w/ the terminology, it's all good.

RIGHT?!?

:scratchhead:


----------



## As'laDain

oneMOreguy said:


> and for those who think WR and Chris can be compared as equals with regards to cheating.........take the time to actual read thru Chris' posts in the past. There is really no comparison except for the use of the word "cheating" There are truly many different forms and degrees of cheating.


dangerous thinking there. we can relate to how he feels, so we can understand it and more easily justify it. 

but we would still be justifying infidelity.


----------



## As'laDain

GusPolinski said:


> I said this (or something like it) before in another thread...
> 
> "It shouldn't matter if she's BPD, NPD, BD, or a member of the LAPD... all that matters is that she was down w/ the OPP."
> 
> 90's hip hop reference FTW!!!
> 
> Aaaaanyway...
> 
> The terminology associated w/ each of these disorders is nothing more than a label used to describe a set of personality characteristics that make it all to easy for someone to indulge in entitled, selfish, short-sighted, and (sometimes) abusive behavior... and then justify the behavior.
> 
> In other words, because there *IS* a legitimate, clinically-recognized, "diagnosable", and semi-quantifiable condition associated w/ the terminology, it's all good.
> 
> RIGHT?!?
> 
> :scratchhead:


those labels can also be used for just the opposite. we often see them used to dehumanize someone so that we feel justified in dropping them like a bad habit or ignoring our own behaviors. 

"hey, its not my fault my marriage is terrible, my wife is BPD. who cares if i treat her like crap. she is by definition a terrible person."

i hate labels. they do nothing to solve issues.


----------



## vellocet

As'laDain said:


> dangerous thinking there. we can relate to how he feels, so we can understand it and more easily justify it.
> 
> but we would still be justifying infidelity.


I can definitely relate to how he feels, but I cannot justify it. If for no other reason, he should wait until the marriage is over so he doesn't stoop to a level he despises.

I could have started seeing other women when it was clear we were headed for divorce, but I waited. I would have advised him the same. Too late, ship has already sailed.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

GusPolinski said:


> I said this (or something like it) before in another thread...
> 
> "It shouldn't matter if she's BPD, NPD, BD, or a member of the LAPD... all that matters is that she was down w/ the OPP."
> 
> 90's hip hop reference FTW!!!
> 
> Aaaaanyway...
> 
> The terminology associated w/ each of these disorders is nothing more than a label used to describe a set of personality characteristics that make it all to easy for someone to indulge in entitled, selfish, short-sighted, and (sometimes) abusive behavior... and then justify the behavior.
> 
> In other words, because there *IS* a legitimate, clinically-recognized, "diagnosable", and semi-quantifiable condition associated w/ the terminology, it's all good.
> 
> RIGHT?!?
> 
> :scratchhead:


:allhail:

Post of the day... 

Thank you! and Asla is right too... they are used to justify, blame, shame, enable. and all kinds of CRAP ... also abandoning spouses... drives me nuts.


----------



## vellocet

As'laDain said:


> those labels can also be used for just the opposite. we often see them used to dehumanize someone so that we feel justified in dropping them like a bad habit or ignoring our own behaviors.


Hey, it is what it is. A cheater is a cheater, and they ARE a "bad habit" that needs to be dropped, just my opinion.

Labels or no labels, it doesn't change one's desire to leave the situation. And I can't believe anyone would judge them for not wanting to stay with someone that cheated.


----------



## As'laDain

vellocet said:


> Hey, it is what it is. A cheater is a cheater, and they ARE a "bad habit" that needs to be dropped.
> 
> Labels or no labels, it doesn't change one's desire to leave the situation. And I can't believe anyone would judge them for not wanting to stay with someone that cheated.


whos judging them? i think they should be divorced yesterday.


----------



## GusPolinski

As'laDain said:


> those labels can also be used for just the opposite. we often see them used to dehumanize someone so that we feel justified in dropping them like a bad habit or ignoring our own behaviors.
> 
> "hey, its not my fault my marriage is terrible, my wife is BPD. who cares if i treat her like crap. she is by definition a terrible person."
> 
> i hate labels. they do nothing to solve issues.


Eh... labels aren't so bad. If nothing else, they're just an easy way to readily identify or "tag" something. It's all about what you do w/ that knowledge.

For example, in the scenario described above, the husband is a d**chebag. Acceptable ways to handle a wife (or husband, for that matter) w/ BPD tendencies would be (a) divorce (assuming, of course, that the BPD spouse is doing nothing to keep his or her behavior in check), or (b) stick it out and work sh*t out.

At least until you can't. *Then* you divorce. :smthumbup:


----------



## vellocet

As'laDain said:


> whos judging them? i think they should be divorced yesterday.



Was referring to your "justify dropping them like a bad habit" comment.
I didn't need a label to justify it. 

But we are getting of the trail here.


----------



## GusPolinski

As'laDain said:


> whos judging them? i think they should be divorced yesterday.


Eh... more like 5ish years ago.

But for good.


----------



## oneMOreguy

As'laDain said:


> dangerous thinking there. we can relate to how he feels, so we can understand it and more easily justify it.
> 
> but we would still be justifying infidelity.


.....it is dishonest for you to claim that is what I was saying or implying. And it is certainly not dangerous to state that there are different forms and degrees of cheating. 

You are in effect trying to claim that there is no difference in forms of evil. I will accept my personal forms of evil as opposed to those, say of a Hitler, etc without that being a claim that my evil is ok. The point you should walk away with on this is to go back and read all of Chris' threads before you compare him to WR. Unless you do that, you do an injustice to Chris.


----------



## ThePheonix

GusPolinski said:


> The terminology associated w/ each of these disorders is nothing more than a label used to describe a set of personality characteristics that make it all too easy for someone to indulge in entitled, selfish, short-sighted, and (sometimes) abusive behavior... and then justify the behavior.


My take is there is nothing wrong with WR that needs fixing, therapy, counseling, healing or anything else. Maybe she just quit digging her old man. Like thousands of other women who lose interest in their spouse, she found interest in other men. Her behavior ain't justified, but it happens many times every day. The fact that she gave more to the other man should give Chris an idea of where he sits on the totem pole. Its unlikely she somehow "learned her lesson", "comes out of a fog" and realizes Chis is the sexiest, most desirable man she's ever met.


----------



## MattMatt

As'laDain said:


> whos judging them? i think they should be divorced yesterday.


They were. But then remarried.


----------



## As'laDain

oneMOreguy said:


> .....it is dishonest for you to claim that is what I was saying or implying. And it is certainly not dangerous to state that there are different forms and degrees of cheating.
> 
> You are in effect trying to claim that there is no difference in forms of evil. I will accept my personal forms of evil as opposed to those, say of a Hitler, etc without that being a claim that my evil is ok. The point you should walk away with on this is to go back and read all of Chris' threads before you compare him to WR. Unless you do that, you do an injustice to Chris.


you seem a bit sensitive on this issue. 
i apologize if i triggered you. 
i stand by my previous statement.


----------



## oneMOreguy

ThePheonix said:


> My take is there is nothing wrong with WR that needs fixing, therapy, counseling, healing or anything else. Maybe she just quit digging her old man. Like thousands of other women who lose interest in their spouse, she found interest in other men. Her behavior ain't justified, but it happens many times every day. The fact that she gave more to the other man should give Chris an idea of where he sits on the totem pole. Its unlikely she somehow "learned her lesson", "comes out of a fog" and realizes Chis is the sexiest, most desirable man she's ever met.


I think most of us are not trying to find a way to reconnect the two of them. But she would benefit is she could honestly confront her actions, in a detailed sense, and understand the damage she did. Maybe WR just lacks a healthy sense of empathy, but we are not in a position to figure that out. That is why I keep suggesting a strong dose of IC.


----------



## As'laDain

MattMatt said:


> They were. But then remarried.


yeah, they remarried without fixing anything... and it failed. 

i dont think they should have remarried.


----------



## oneMOreguy

As'laDain said:


> you seem a bit sensitive on this issue.
> i apologize if i triggered you.
> i stand by my previous statement.


don't apologize....I don't trigger on such matters.....

I am way too old to battle on the internet btw......

I am fine with us having differing beliefs, but I do not accept you posting that my words are in essence excusing infidelity......

but I continue to suggest you go back and read Chris' posts from the start of his confusion and pain, to get an understanding of why I say there is no equivalence.

when I was younger, I probably would have easily stated that cheating is cheating, all the same......and then I experienced life.


----------



## As'laDain

oneMOreguy said:


> don't apologize....I don't trigger on such matters.....
> 
> I am way too old to battle on the internet btw......
> 
> I am fine with us having differing beliefs, but I do not accept you posting that my words are in essence excusing infidelity......
> 
> but I continue to suggest you go back and read Chris' posts from the start of his confusion and pain, to get an understanding of why I say there is no equivalence.
> 
> when I was younger, I probably would have easily stated that cheating is cheating, all the same......and then I experienced life.


i have already read his threads. and i have also "experienced life". 

and i didnt say you were excusing infidelity. i was trying to say that qualifying infidelity is what can allow it to become tolerable, and i reject the notion that it can ever be tolerable. so, i dont see one form being worse than the other. i dont qualify my own experiences with infidelity with anyone elses. wrong is just wrong. 

maybe im just simple.


----------



## G.J.

mean while back on the thread


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Mr Blunt said:


> WR
> You are on the right track to getting better! I think that what you said (I have forgiven myself and so have my two girls) is HUGE! That is a ginormous positive because you have to get relief from that guilt or you will not progress much if any. Your daughters forgiving you mean that they will not have to fight the bitterness that comes with resentments.
> 
> You getting you and your children better is your number one priority. Hopefully you will keep us updated as you can be a very positive help to others after you keep improving for several years.


Thank you, although there are a lot of things I have uncovered and need serious help with still. Someone today said 'how can you forgive yourself if you don't realise still what you've done'. I said I meant I hate what I did but I don't hate myself anymore so perhaps forgiven was a bit premature, but working on it.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

White Rose said:


> Thank you, although there are a lot of things I have uncovered and need serious help with still. Someone today said 'how can you forgive yourself if you don't realise still what you've done'. I said I meant I hate what I did but I don't hate myself anymore so perhaps forgiven was a bit premature, but working on it.


Actually i said i don't hate myself any more but meant to add I hate what I did.


----------



## wmn1

Blossom Leigh said:


> There are many different forms and degrees of sin, but sin is sin.


agreed, sin is sin but degrees and forms do matter IMO


----------



## wmn1

As'laDain said:


> dangerous thinking there. we can relate to how he feels, so we can understand it and more easily justify it.
> 
> but we would still be justifying infidelity.



There are different degrees and forms of infidelity.

Some are worse than others. None are justifiable but some people's actions cause more harm. That's what we have here


----------



## wmn1

As'laDain said:


> those labels can also be used for just the opposite. we often see them used to dehumanize someone so that we feel justified in dropping them like a bad habit or ignoring our own behaviors.
> 
> "hey, its not my fault my marriage is terrible, my wife is BPD. who cares if i treat her like crap. she is by definition a terrible person."
> 
> i hate labels. they do nothing to solve issues.


noone classified anyone as PSD. The point is that one can't break down 90% of the pillars of a house, then the other says "this house is going to collapse, I am out of here" and then blame the guy who moves.

There is one issue here. She brought this guy to a point of no return. He left, plain and simple. There is no issue to solve but who gets what in the divorce settlement. 

We can all revisit this if he gets back together with her and consider his a revenge affair. Until then we are equating an armed robber to a thief. Both are wrong, one is worse than the other


----------



## wmn1

vellocet said:


> I can definitely relate to how he feels, but I cannot justify it. If for no other reason, he should wait until the marriage is over so he doesn't stoop to a level he despises.
> 
> I could have started seeing other women when it was clear we were headed for divorce, but I waited. I would have advised him the same. Too late, ship has already sailed.


I agree with you Vel.


----------



## wmn1

oneMOreguy said:


> .....it is dishonest for you to claim that is what I was saying or implying. And it is certainly not dangerous to state that there are different forms and degrees of cheating.
> 
> You are in effect trying to claim that there is no difference in forms of evil. I will accept my personal forms of evil as opposed to those, say of a Hitler, etc without that being a claim that my evil is ok. The point you should walk away with on this is to go back and read all of Chris' threads before you compare him to WR. Unless you do that, you do an injustice to Chris.


I agree that there are different levels of evil. If I cheated on my wife with 10 different women and she stpped out once while despondent, would we be on the same playing field ? I think not. So I agree here.

Both are wrong but one is moreso.

My only involvement in this thread is saying that equating the two is dishonest IMO. 

I too wish Chris would stop but on the other hand, he said it's over and he has moved on. More ethics than she ever did. Me personally, I would have waited the year to get divorced. However, she disrupted the marriage, not him. He is just moving on. In one year, if they are back together, I would tar and feather them both but he says it won't be the case. I believe him

So I agree with you onemoreguy


----------



## MattMatt

wmn1 said:


> I agree that there are different levels of evil. If I cheated on my wife with 10 different women and she stpped out once while despondent, would we be on the same playing field ? I think not. So I agree here.
> 
> Both are wrong but one is moreso.
> 
> My only involvement in this thread is saying that equating the two is dishonest IMO.
> 
> I too wish Chris would stop but on the other hand, he said it's over and he has moved on. More ethics than she ever did. Me personally, I would have waited the year to get divorced. However, she disrupted the marriage, not him. He is just moving on. In one year, if they are back together,* I would tar and feather them both *but he says it won't be the case. I believe him
> 
> So I agree with you onemoreguy


Why? Why would you set yourself up in judgement over them?

By the way, the divorce laws in the UK are different than in the USA.


----------



## wmn1

MattMatt said:


> Why? Why would you set yourself up in judgement over them?
> 
> By the way, the divorce laws in the UK are different than in the USA.


I know the divorce laws are different. 

She is the primary aggressor and I am not going to buy that his actions equals hers. I know a number of you have defended her full scale and I don't agree with this. I agree that she needs help and is making at least some effort in that regard. Chris lifted all the heavy weight after she determined that she was going to do what she wanted and he got slapped again. I am just seeking recognition of this from some here when it's obvious. 

At the end of the day, I hope she gets her help but I am glad for Chris that he has moved on. You can only beat someone down only so much. Not how he left but that he did it. 

Let me ask this (and I know your story) but who would stay with WR after she did what she did ?? And who would refer her here afterwards to help her ? This guy dealt with nasty affairs, a remarriage and gaslighting, then even referred her here and he's getting biotched slapped by some as though he blew this up. It's not right.


----------



## wmn1

MattMatt said:


> Why? Why would you set yourself up in judgement over them?
> 
> By the way, the divorce laws in the UK are different than in the USA.


and there is no judgement. He left. Good for him. This thread was supposed to be about her getting help, not slamming Chris for being a punching bag for 2 years while his wife got banged by some man who5e

I am happy they are split up. I hope it stays that way. Their marriage doesn't deserve a second chance.

Just saying ......


----------



## The Middleman

wmn1 said:


> and there is no judgement. He left. Good for him. This thread was supposed to be about her getting help, not slamming Chris for being a punching bag for 2 years while his wife got banged by some man who5e
> 
> 
> 
> I am happy they are split up. I hope it stays that way. Their marriage doesn't deserve a second chance.
> 
> 
> 
> Just saying ......



Bravo! Couldn't have said it better.


----------



## jim123

White Rose said:


> Thank you, although there are a lot of things I have uncovered and need serious help with still. Someone today said 'how can you forgive yourself if you don't realise still what you've done'. I said I meant I hate what I did but I don't hate myself anymore so perhaps forgiven was a bit premature, but working on it.


[/I]

This is not about good versus evil. This is about whether you should be in this M or not. It is whether you should be with Chris or not.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted *by White Rose*
> Thank you, although there are a lot of things I have uncovered and need serious help with still. Someone today said 'how can you forgive yourself if you don't realise still what you've done'. I said I meant I hate what I did but I don't hate myself anymore so perhaps forgiven was a bit premature, but working on it.
> 
> *By Jim123*
> This is not about good versus evil. This is about whether you should be in this M or not. It is whether you should be with Chris or not.



I think that question of whether WR should be with Chris or not is not the main issue and has been settled by Chris and WR by their words below



> *By Chris*
> I am not asking WR to fix herself for "us" as *that is over*. I am asking her to fix herself for her.
> 
> *By WR*
> I regret what I did and *losing Chris* and am truly remorseful. I am continuing with therapy and the forum as it has been really great…


WR forgiving herself and her children forgiving her is HUGE!

WR will always live with some of the consequences of her actions but hating herself is not necessary nor need be permanent. The forgiveness issue is more important than whether WR should be with Chris or not; that seems to be settled as divorce or separated and not striving to have a deep 100% relationship such as they had hoped for.

*WR’s priority should be her improving and her children and forgiveness is an important issue in her getting better and her children’s relationship with their mother*.


----------



## needrelief

Just found this thread. I'm on page 24 of 84 from my iPhone, as I lay in bed next to my sleeping WW. I can't stop reading?
I haven't read Chris' threads (yet), but already I'm struck by some of the similarities between this and my story.
WR, you have no idea how angry it makes me to read of your inability to meet your husband's sexual needs after you gave it all up to your home wrecking f-buddy!
This may not have healed your marriage, but I know from expierence, this is (was) something your husband desperately needed.
The pain and torture your husband felt (probably still feels) is f-ing UN-BEAR-ABLE!!!
I'm gonna be graphic here?
You needed to do every sexual thing you did with the OP, and more. Any excuse given just sounds like "you're not good enough", "I don't feel that way with you", "you don't excite me in that way", "Your [email protected] is too small!"
Chris' ego has been torn to shreds. He has been completely emasculate. He might as well have been raped by your OP, 'cause that's exactly how he feels?
My WW and I phuck just about every night. The need to dominate her and spread my seed in her and all over her is overpowering. If there's not a big mess on our bed afterwards, I feel like a failure. I never felt this compulsion before the affair. But my wife's affair has wrecked havok on my mind!
My wife's affair had made it so clear to me of just how absurd it is that we humans think we're so far removed from the rest of the animal kingdom?
The animal instinct to harm the OP is overpowering. The animal instinct to constantly replace the seed left inside my WW (who of course did not use a condom- not that it would have calmed my animal instinct), with my own seed is overpowering. The animal instinct to dominate her is OVERPOWERING!!!
Understand, to a certain extent, you took away your husband's humanity. All he had left was his animal instinct. To feel like a male of his spiecies, he needed to dominate you. To feel like a human, he needed to have his ego stroked, by being able to take any sexual liberty he phucking wanted with you?
Unfortunately, I don't know if this would have saved your marriage. My wife allows me to dominate her sexually (for the most part), but it hasn't stoped the torturous mind movies and thoughts of my WW accepting another man emotionally and physically. As a man attempts to R with his WW, this is the most all-consuming, and horrendously soul-killing aspect of the affair?
I could go on forever about this ( as I said- "all consuming").
Unfortunately, a woman capable of having an affair would probably be unswayed by the thought that she could hurt her husband so completely. But after the fog lifts? if she has the capacity for compassion and empathy, she has to take into consideration the damage done to her husband's humanity and sexual sense of self-worth.


----------



## bfree

wmn1 said:


> agreed, sin is sin but degrees and forms do matter IMO


To us, not to God.


----------



## ThePheonix

Needrelif, I've got some advice for you Dawg. See a psychiatrist.


----------



## needrelief

Sorry for the thread jack...
For the record, I continue to seek professional help.
I recognize that my words read like the thoughts of a mad man...
But the thoughts ring so true (in my mind) and seem to be echoed throughout so many threads on TAM.
Maybe others don't express their feelings as explicit or bluntly but I have to believe that I am not an annomily.
I never would have understood my current thinking, before the affair. And I don't expect someone who hasn't been through it to understand.
But I have to believe I'm not alone in my thinking/processing. Am I? Am I reading too much into other BS threads? Do others not feel this way?


----------



## Mr.Fisty

needrelief said:


> Sorry for the thread jack...
> For the record, I continue to seek professional help.
> I recognize that my words read like the thoughts of a mad man...
> But the thoughts ring so true (in my mind) and seem to be echoed throughout so many threads on TAM.
> Maybe others don't express their feelings as explicit or bluntly but I have to believe that I am not an annomily.
> I never would have understood my current thinking, before the affair. And I don't expect someone who hasn't been through it to understand.
> But I have to believe I'm not alone in my thinking/processing. Am I? Am I reading too much into other BS threads? Do others not feel this way?



It is okay, you feel the outrage because for the most part, you are reliving the experience, and you pretty much triggered. Your actually projecting your emotions onto the character of Chris, and I am not saying you may be wrong, but you were describing yourself and what you went through, and your own turmoil. A part of you sees White rose in your wife, and she is her own separate entity. Have you talked to your wife about the emotions you are feeling? If not, perhaps during a mc session, where you have a neutral party involved, you can state your grievances. Your wife will probably never fully comprehend what she put you through, and that is something you may have to live with. If she is remorseful, she can only feel sympathy and guilt, but never fully understand.


----------



## jld

I bet other men do. But as you said, they do not describe it as graphically.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I had a reaction to your post too NR of "whoa dude... you are going to have to check that aggression, not good."


----------



## needrelief

On a lighter note... An hour on the elliptical goes by pretty fast when reading and responding on TAM!


----------



## MattMatt

What WR and Chris decide to do, to reconcile or to divorce is their business.

I would not dream of being abusive to them for taking a decision that I did not concur with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wmn1

I am not sure how God prioritizes things, Bfree. You could be right you could be wrong. I don't think God is a 'yes' or 'no' button but sees everyone based on what they do and what type of person they were. So I feel God may see things in degrees. Regardless, neither you or I know.

I do know it matters to many of us


----------



## ThePheonix

jld said:


> I bet other men do. But as you said, they do not describe it as graphically.


Chis wised up to some extent. He's doing it with other women.


----------



## BetrayedDad

needrelief said:


> But I have to believe I'm not alone in my thinking/processing. Am I? Am I reading too much into other BS threads? Do others not feel this way?


You're not alone, just a little graphic lol. What you're describing is hysterical bonding which is a common phenomena (and traumatic side-effect) which occurs after a BS finds out he was betrayed. It is a very primal instinct I agree. Same thing happened to me for a while. I wanted it ALL the time and every which way but I could never forget what my FWW did either and soon after I divorced her. Loyalty is just too important to me in a relationship and she sold out.

As a side note, this is a great indicator of the potential salvation of a relationship. If the WW is as into the hysterical bonding as you are then there is hope she is coming out of the fog. If she's going through the motions, or worse refusing you, then she is still lusting for her OM and you might as well throw in the towel.


----------



## jld

ThePheonix said:


> Chis wised up to some extent. He's doing it with other women.


I disagree that there is anything wise about it. Divorce first.


----------



## bfree

wmn1 said:


> I am not sure how God prioritizes things, Bfree. You could be right you could be wrong. I don't think God is a 'yes' or 'no' button but sees everyone based on what they do and what type of person they were. So I feel God may see things in degrees. Regardless, neither you or I know.
> 
> I do know it matters to many of us


The fact that God put adultery in the Ten Commandments right alongside murder, theft and idolatry is all I really need to know.


----------



## wmn1

God put adultery in the 10 commandments , yes, he did not say anywhere that doing the act 100 times is the same as doing it once. I firmly believe that god will punish serial cheaters who manipulate, twist and turn and hurt their spouses 100 times more than someone who gets too drunk, screws up one time while drunk or mentally off ( which is abd enough as it is). Your description, bfree, is acting as though God is like a machine or the Wizard of Oz.

And Matt, if what WR and Chris do is their business, fine. However, they put it up here and people have a right to opine. I don't think any one person on this board will be going to Chris or WR's house to intervene. I don't see anyone here abusing them or having the ability to do so


----------



## jld

I think we receive the consequences of our actions right here in this lifetime.


----------



## bfree

wmn1 said:


> God put adultery in the 10 commandments , yes, he did not say anywhere that doing the act 100 times is the same as doing it once. I firmly believe that god will punish serial cheaters who manipulate, twist and turn and hurt their spouses 100 times more than someone who gets too drunk, screws up one time while drunk or mentally off ( which is abd enough as it is). Your description, bfree, is acting as though God is like a machine or the Wizard of Oz.
> 
> And Matt, if what WR and Chris do is their business, fine. However, they put it up here and people have a right to opine. I don't think any one person on this board will be going to Chris or WR's house to intervene. I don't see anyone here abusing them or having the ability to do so


Sin is sin. Unless you repent and atone for the sin your soul is stained. It doesn't matter how stained it is.

James 4:17 So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

The ground is flat at the foot of the cross....

I agree Bfree, everyone has equal need and our behavior shows we all have that need.

Yet there is scripture about rewards according to what is done.

So it is actually both... not either or


----------



## NoChoice

The issue as I see it is the WR cheated in her marriage. Chris still cheated but he and she knew it was over except for the filing. I see a big difference in the two instances. It's like having two gardners working a garden when suddenly one starts killing the plants and the other tries to salvage them. Then the one realizes that there simply isn't anything left to save and stops trying. Again a big difference to me.


----------



## MattMatt

NoChoice said:


> The issue as I see it is the WR cheated in her marriage. Chris still cheated but he and she knew it was over except for the filing. I see a big difference in the two instances. It's like having two gardners working a garden when suddenly one starts killing the plants and the other tries to salvage them. Then the one realizes that there simply isn't anything left to save and stops trying. Again a big difference to me.


Except that Chris got the divorce that WR's behaviour warranted and then he decided to reconcile with WR and then cheated after they remarried.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wmn1

jld said:


> I think we receive the consequences of our actions right here in this lifetime.



In many times, yes. But not always


----------



## 2ntnuf

Hope you are doing okay WR.


----------



## As'laDain

i hope she is doing ok too... 
at this point, most of this thread is just senseless bickering. 
hmm.. thinking back to what conanhub said, 

WR, have you done anything to help someone out recently?


----------



## Ceegee

wmn1 said:


> disagree



That's your right.


----------



## 2ntnuf

wmn1 said:


> Personally, I don't like bringing religion into these boards. So I will end my involvement in this talk (I don't think I started it either) but will again re-emphasize that while I feel all cheating is horrible and should suffer severe consequences, serial cheaters who destroy lives and do so intentionally is on a different playing field than someone who slips up once. Though I do believe both are worthy of being divorced.


Nothing wrong with starting a thread and venting, getting alternative opinions and hashing out what you believe, think, interpret and so forth. I bet you'd have a firestorm of comments. Probably best in the Politics and Religions section, I'd imagine. Been there and done that. Takes some guts and you can take a heck of a beating. I've had many beat downs here. Character builders. 

This thread is weird. Really weird.


----------



## GusPolinski

As'laDain said:


> wmn1, if someone spends their whole life cheating on their husband, are they less deserving of forgiveness than someone who only cheated once?
> 
> is the person who cheated once done a disservice if they are both forgiven the debt?


If a person were to assault/stab/shoot you, do you think that you could (eventually) forgive him or her for it? Probably so, but what if he or she had done it to you _repeatedly_? Even still, maybe so... right?

But what if he or she had denied ever attacking you?

What if he/she brushed it off as no big deal, and put no effort into helping you to heal from the emotional trauma involved in such an attack?

Even better... do you think that you could forgive someone for attacking you WHILE he or she is attacking you?


----------



## As'laDain

i actually think it applies directly to this thread. 

the difference between an apology and repentance is this:

an apology says "im sorry" and nothing more. 

repentance says "im sorry, i will make sure that i never do that again"

see the difference? a repentant soul will find out why they did it to begin with and do whatever it takes to make sure they dont do it again. 

WR is still here, despite the viciousness against her. she is going to therapy to try and figure out why she did what she did so that she will never do it again.

so my point is...

lets _help_ her with that.


----------



## GusPolinski

As'laDain said:


> i actually think it applies directly to this thread.
> 
> the difference between an apology and repentance is this:
> 
> an apology says "im sorry" and nothing more.
> 
> repentance says "im sorry, i will make sure that i never do that again"
> 
> see the difference? a repentant soul will find out why they did it to begin with and do whatever it takes to make sure they dont do it again.
> 
> WR is still here, despite the viciousness against her. she is going to therapy to try and figure out why she did what she did so that she will never do it again.
> 
> so my point is...
> 
> lets _help_ her with that.


How much value is there in a rain that comes only AFTER the ground beneath your feet has become a desert?


----------



## As'laDain

GusPolinski said:


> How much value is there in a rain that comes only AFTER the ground beneath your feet has become a desert?


none to the farmer who left it. everything to the desert itself. or the next farmer down the line, for that matter.


----------



## GusPolinski

As'laDain said:


> none to the farmer who left it. everything to the desert itself. or the next farmer down the line, for that matter.


A single rain wouldn't be worth a damn (NPI) to either the farmer (assuming, of course, that he hadn't left) or the desert. But if regular rains were to resume... well then that might turn things around.


----------



## As'laDain

are you still talking about reconciliation? im confused, who is the desert, who is the farmer?


----------



## oneMOreguy

I eagerly await the return of WR so we can resume the discussion of her really understanding what she did and its impact, so she can resume a healthy existence based on being honest with one's self........

...and what did Tunera do t get banned??? I enjoyed our little back and forth when we saw life differently.......


----------



## jim123

Mr Blunt said:


> I think that question of whether WR should be with Chris or not is not the main issue and has been settled by Chris and WR by their words below
> 
> 
> 
> WR forgiving herself and her children forgiving her is HUGE!
> 
> WR will always live with some of the consequences of her actions but hating herself is not necessary nor need be permanent. The forgiveness issue is more important than whether WR should be with Chris or not; that seems to be settled as divorce or separated and not striving to have a deep 100% relationship such as they had hoped for.
> 
> *WR’s priority should be her improving and her children and forgiveness is an important issue in her getting better and her children’s relationship with their mother*.


Forgiveness is an ending point. Not a starting point. She needs a lot of work before she does this.

It is still all just about the M. Understanding that leads to focus and the ability to forgive, Who knows if it is over.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Jim
> Forgiveness is an ending point. Not a starting point. She needs a lot of work before she does this.
> 
> It is still all just about the M. Understanding that leads to focus and the ability to forgive, Who knows if it is over.


You have it backwards. Forgiveness is one of the events that have to happen in the beginning. In WR's case she has to forgive herself so that she stops the self-hatred. With self-hatred you are not going to progress very far or not at all. In fact with self-hatred you can go backwards and get worse.

As for the question of if it is over, I can only go by what Chris and WR said below



> By Chris
> I am not asking WR to fix herself for "us" as *that is ove*r. I am asking her to fix herself for her.
> 
> By WR
> I regret what I did and *losing Chris* and am truly remorseful. I am continuing with therapy and the forum as it has been really great…


----------



## As'laDain

i agree with Mr Blunt.


----------



## wmn1

2ntnuf said:


> Nothing wrong with starting a thread and venting, getting alternative opinions and hashing out what you believe, think, interpret and so forth. I bet you'd have a firestorm of comments. Probably best in the Politics and Religions section, I'd imagine. Been there and done that. Takes some guts and you can take a heck of a beating. I've had many beat downs here. Character builders.
> 
> This thread is weird. Really weird.


I agree that this thread is weird. Also, you are right, I hold my religious beliefs close to the vest so I feel that it is best for the Politics and Religion Section though I won't follow the thread over to there. My beliefs is politics are extreme and I would probably be banned within 2 days. beat downs I am not afraid of. All it means is that we aren't afraid to speak our minds


----------



## wmn1

oneMOreguy said:


> I eagerly await the return of WR so we can resume the discussion of her really understanding what she did and its impact, so she can resume a healthy existence based on being honest with one's self........
> 
> ...and what did Tunera do t get banned??? I enjoyed our little back and forth when we saw life differently.......


wow she got banned ? She'll be back


----------



## NoChoice

I do agree that cheating is wrong and is always the wrong answer no matter the problem but there are instances where I would be less surprised that it happened. It's never good when an animal attacks but it should not come as a huge surprise when it is taunted while wearing a bacon jacket.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Some folks just seem more likely to cheat than others. I think it's something they are born with. Maybe we are all born with that and some of us also have the ability to understand how hurtful it can be to the one we love. It's likely those folks have more empathy than others, maybe too much.


----------



## As'laDain

i think your giving infidelity too much credit. 

empathy can grow like a muscle. just gotta use it.


----------



## 2ntnuf

As'laDain said:


> i think your giving infidelity too much credit.
> 
> empathy can grow like a muscle. just gotta use it.


You think it's more like sneaking that cookie mum said not to eat before dinner? The fact that you can't have that cookie makes it all the more desired?


----------



## vellocet

As'laDain said:


> wmn1, if someone spends their whole life cheating on their husband, are they less deserving of forgiveness than someone who only cheated once?



IMO, yes.

If my x-wife had cheated once, I'd still have left her, but I could possibly forgive her.

Either way I'd be humiliated. But I would not forgive the humiliation of someone that cheated throughout the marriage or multiple times.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

We all have equal need of forgiveness from God

As well as equal responsibility to forgive each other


----------



## Rookie4

Hard rules do not apply, in frail human relationships. You must do the best you can, and hope for the best. Morality changes with time and tide.


----------



## Jellybeans

And whether to forgive or not or stay married or divorce is also up to the individuals in the relationship.

Two relationships are the same.


----------



## wmn1

vellocet said:


> IMO, yes.
> 
> If my x-wife had cheated once, I'd still have left her, but I could possibly forgive her.
> 
> Either way I'd be humiliated. But I would not forgive the humiliation of someone that cheated throughout the marriage or multiple times.


I agree with you, Vellocet, completely


----------



## Squeakr

As'laDain said:


> wmn1, if someone spends their whole life cheating on their husband, are they less deserving of forgiveness than someone who only cheated once?
> 
> is the person who cheated once done a disservice if they are both forgiven the debt?


This is not as black and white as proposed, as the ideal of intent is also at play here. The sin is not only in the action but the desire of the action. So I would think that the intent of the one time cheater needs to come into play. Is it just that one action that caused them to stop due to their morals or is it that they were caught that stopped it, yet they would have continued to do so had they not been caught (in which case they are a serial cheater at heart) or their other attempts just didn't work out to complete the deed. Isn't the planning and attempt just as heinous and despicable as actually carrying out the action? I would say yes!


----------



## 2ntnuf

Morality changes as we learn more. It can loosen when we believe we have been treated unjustly. It can be bolstered when we believe we justified. Some aspects of morality might never change. In the end, we must choose to allow and support those changes or our steadfast beliefs.


----------



## As'laDain

Squeakr said:


> This is not as black and white as proposed, as the ideal of intent is also at play here. The sin is not only in the action but the desire of the action. So I would think that the intent of the one time cheater needs to come into play. Is it just that one action that caused them to stop due to their morals or is it that they were caught that stopped it, yet they would have continued to do so had they not been caught (in which case they are a serial cheater at heart) or their other attempts just didn't work out to complete the deed. Isn't the planning and attempt just as heinous and despicable as actually carrying out the action? I would say yes!


its still black and white. 

repentant, or non-repentant?

only one will do what is right from that day forward.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

If WR doesn't return, I'm probably out y'all.


----------



## Jellybeans

Blossom Leigh said:


> If WR doesn't return, I'm probably out y'all.


So you're only staying around for WR?


----------



## Squeakr

As'laDain said:


> i was making a point. it doesnt matter what the one did or the other, or how bad the offense is. what matters is whether they are repentant.


SoI take it that you believe in the 12th hour death bed confessional then? As with this ideal, you can live a life of depravity but as long as you accept and repent in the final hour you should be forgiven and saved? 

I am not judging either way, as this is a hard concept for me to truly grasp based upon that fact. It just seems, why not live your life as you want without concern for rules, morals, or others, and then in the last moments repent and be saved, seems like the best of both worlds there.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Jellybeans said:


> So you're only staying around for WR?


Yea, on this thread. Just gettin' bored with it. I prefer helping OP's progress, not holding philosophical debates  Conflict averse.. what can I say.


----------



## MattMatt

I think the theological debates need to be taken to the appropriate section on TAM. 

Although sincere and very worthy they are, in my opinion, running the risk of derailing this thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

MattMatt said:


> I think the theological debates need to be taken to the appropriate section on TAM.
> 
> Although sincere and very worthy they are, in my opinion, running the risk of derailing this thread.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yup.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## As'laDain

WR, you still here?


----------



## wmn1

I agree


----------



## Jellybeans

MattMatt said:


> I think the theological debates need to be taken to the appropriate section on TAM.
> 
> Although sincere and very worthy they are, in my opinion, running the risk of derailing this thread.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This thread was derailed long ago and OP hasn't been back.

Maybe the Mods can lock it.


----------



## MattMatt

Jellybeans said:


> This thread was derailed long ago and OP hasn't been back.
> 
> Maybe the Mods can lock it.


WR is still about. She was active 2 days ago.

Maybe she was driven away by the noise of the tambourines being beaten?


----------



## Chris989

WR has been genuinely busy in real life with Christmas etc.


----------



## MattMatt

Chris989 said:


> WR has been genuinely busy in real life with Christmas etc.


Real life? 

I got me some of that stuff!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wmn1

Chris989 said:


> WR has been genuinely busy in real life with Christmas etc.



Chris, al throughout that thread, I never said to you but meant to, that it took a lot of courage for you to post your story in detail.

Others can learn from it and for that, I feel you are being a great service. Thanks


----------



## Chris989

wmn1 said:


> Chris, al throughout that thread, I never said to you but meant to, that it took a lot of courage for you to post your story in detail.
> 
> Others can learn from it and for that, I feel you are being a great service. Thanks


Hey thanks!

You know we both feel that others might learn from this whole mess. Everything from the way it was handled by WR, to the disaster that was our counselling with those idiots at Relate.

Ultimately, I am not sure if any of it could have panned out differently as it has been about the way me and WR interact and also the way she saw her relationships with other people generally.

For what it's worth this isn't over yet though.


----------



## MattMatt

Chris989 said:


> Hey thanks!
> 
> You know we both feel that others might learn from this whole mess. Everything from the way it was handled by WR, to the disaster that was our counselling with those idiots at Relate.
> 
> Ultimately, I am not sure if any of it could have panned out differently as it has been about the way me and WR interact and also the way she saw her relationships with other people generally.
> 
> For what it's worth this isn't over yet though.


Relate = idiots.

Sadly this is true.

Some Relate counsellors are good but unfortunately there are too many who are idiots.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

needrelief said:


> Just found this thread. I'm on page 24 of 84 from my iPhone, as I lay in bed next to my sleeping WW. I can't stop reading?
> I haven't read Chris' threads (yet), but already I'm struck by some of the similarities between this and my story.
> WR, you have no idea how angry it makes me to read of your inability to meet your husband's sexual needs after you gave it all up to your home wrecking f-buddy!
> This may not have healed your marriage, but I know from expierence, this is (was) something your husband desperately needed.
> The pain and torture your husband felt (probably still feels) is f-ing UN-BEAR-ABLE!!!
> I'm gonna be graphic here?
> You needed to do every sexual thing you did with the OP, and more. Any excuse given just sounds like "you're not good enough", "I don't feel that way with you", "you don't excite me in that way", "Your [email protected] is too small!"
> Chris' ego has been torn to shreds. He has been completely emasculate. He might as well have been raped by your OP, 'cause that's exactly how he feels?
> My WW and I phuck just about every night. The need to dominate her and spread my seed in her and all over her is overpowering. If there's not a big mess on our bed afterwards, I feel like a failure. I never felt this compulsion before the affair. But my wife's affair has wrecked havok on my mind!
> My wife's affair had made it so clear to me of just how absurd it is that we humans think we're so far removed from the rest of the animal kingdom?
> The animal instinct to harm the OP is overpowering. The animal instinct to constantly replace the seed left inside my WW (who of course did not use a condom- not that it would have calmed my animal instinct), with my own seed is overpowering. The animal instinct to dominate her is OVERPOWERING!!!
> Understand, to a certain extent, you took away your husband's humanity. All he had left was his animal instinct. To feel like a male of his spiecies, he needed to dominate you. To feel like a human, he needed to have his ego stroked, by being able to take any sexual liberty he phucking wanted with you?
> Unfortunately, I don't know if this would have saved your marriage. My wife allows me to dominate her sexually (for the most part), but it hasn't stoped the torturous mind movies and thoughts of my WW accepting another man emotionally and physically. As a man attempts to R with his WW, this is the most all-consuming, and horrendously soul-killing aspect of the affair?
> I could go on forever about this ( as I said- "all consuming").
> Unfortunately, a woman capable of having an affair would probably be unswayed by the thought that she could hurt her husband so completely. But after the fog lifts? if she has the capacity for compassion and empathy, she has to take into consideration the damage done to her husband's humanity and sexual sense of self-worth.


I didn't finish that last post, sorry, don't know what happened there but what I was saying was that I was being so selfish about doing the things he wanted. I was more worried about how I felt than his feelings and that was wrong. I didn't as it turns out want to own up to a lot of the things I did and didn't think he'd get someone else. I didn't see why I should do some of the things he asked as I didn't understand how it would help even though he said how it would help. I have this 'knowing better' trait that I am addressing because I've found out eventually that I don't and the word arrogant 'smart arse' comes to mind. Some of the things I should have done were so easy and when it comes down to it I showed a lack of respect for him by not doing them and again put my own feelings first. I'm glad he made me wake up to this a s Id have never begun to look at myself in depth without this jolt.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Mr Blunt said:


> I think that question of whether WR should be with Chris or not is not the main issue and has been settled by Chris and WR by their words below
> 
> 
> 
> WR forgiving herself and her children forgiving her is HUGE!
> 
> WR will always live with some of the consequences of her actions but hating herself is not necessary nor need be permanent. The forgiveness issue is more important than whether WR should be with Chris or not; that seems to be settled as divorce or separated and not striving to have a deep 100% relationship such as they had hoped for.
> 
> *WR’s priority should be her improving and her children and forgiveness is an important issue in her getting better and her children’s relationship with their mother*.


Mr Blunt, i'm being lazy here but who was it that you recommended I look up who'd had an affair and reconciled?


----------



## the guy

Chris989 said:


> WR has been genuinely busy in real life with Christmas etc.


Are you sure?????

Generally busy or not generally busy?

Ok WR how busy were you really

I'm just teasing:lol:


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

oneMOreguy said:


> I think most of us are not trying to find a way to reconnect the two of them. But she would benefit is she could honestly confront her actions, in a detailed sense, and understand the damage she did. Maybe WR just lacks a healthy sense of empathy, but we are not in a position to figure that out. That is why I keep suggesting a strong dose of IC.


I am confronting my actions. I am looking closely at what it is in my personality that made me act in the way I did before the affair. I have found I was a horrible person and belittled him without realising this and caused most of the arguments I got so fed up about and blamed chris for. Having found this out I have been able for the first time to accept this and stop doing it. I have found out I have a lot of learned behaviour and that what I consider normal because of my own family is not actually normal to others. I am taking myself apart and trying to make a better model of myself. This is huge and I have a lot to do but am making that start. I think its all connected to how I have treated chris and by understanding it I can accept it and move forward.
I understand the damage i did, better now than before, I think before I was kind of saying, yes, yes, he's hurt, I hurt him but he's still here and he'll get over it because I'm here and i'm so wonderful, I must be cos he's still here. But now I'm saying ****, I'm a bloody weirdo who abused her husband for years, had an affair and I've been a pretty appalling person to live with. I'm ashamed of this and want to find the rest out to make myself better.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

the guy said:


> Are you sure?????
> 
> Generally busy or not generally busy?
> 
> Ok WR how busy were you really
> 
> I'm just teasing:lol:


----------



## chaos

White Rose said:


> I am confronting my actions. I am looking closely at what it is in my personality that made me act in the way I did before the affair. I have found I was a horrible person and belittled him without realising this and caused most of the arguments I got so fed up about and blamed chris for. Having found this out I have been able for the first time to accept this and stop doing it. I have found out I have a lot of learned behaviour and that what I consider normal because of my own family is not actually normal to others. I am taking myself apart and trying to make a better model of myself. This is huge and I have a lot to do but am making that start. I think its all connected to how I have treated chris and by understanding it I can accept it and move forward.
> I understand the damage i did, better now than before, I think before I was kind of saying, yes, yes, he's hurt, I hurt him but he's still here and he'll get over it because I'm here and i'm so wonderful, I must be cos he's still here. But now I'm saying ****, I'm a bloody weirdo who abused her husband for years, had an affair and I've been a pretty appalling person to live with. I'm ashamed of this and want to find the rest out to make myself better.


It takes guts to own your $h!t. It is also the first step to become a better human being. I wish you well WR.


----------



## jim123

White Rose said:


> Mr Blunt, i'm being lazy here but who was it that you recommended I look up who'd had an affair and reconciled?


It is the reconciliation thread in this section started by B1 and EI.


----------



## jim123

White Rose said:


> I am confronting my actions. I am looking closely at what it is in my personality that made me act in the way I did before the affair. I have found I was a horrible person and belittled him without realising this and caused most of the arguments I got so fed up about and blamed chris for. Having found this out I have been able for the first time to accept this and stop doing it. I have found out I have a lot of learned behaviour and that what I consider normal because of my own family is not actually normal to others. I am taking myself apart and trying to make a better model of myself. This is huge and I have a lot to do but am making that start. I think its all connected to how I have treated chris and by understanding it I can accept it and move forward.
> I understand the damage i did, better now than before, I think before I was kind of saying, yes, yes, he's hurt, I hurt him but he's still here and he'll get over it because I'm here and i'm so wonderful, I must be cos he's still here. But now I'm saying ****, I'm a bloody weirdo who abused her husband for years, had an affair and I've been a pretty appalling person to live with. I'm ashamed of this and want to find the rest out to make myself better.


Chris did not help and actually helped you along with not standing up for himself for two years.


----------



## Chris989

jim123 said:


> Chris did not help and actually helped you along with not standing up for himself for two years.


That is both untrue and a gross simplification.

I said I was leaving literally every week, plus lots more but I did everything other than physically leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

Chris989 said:


> That is both untrue and a gross simplification.
> 
> I said I was leaving literally every week, plus lots more but I did everything other than physically leave.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



It is always actions Chris. If you tell someone every week you are going to leave then do not, at some point they do not think it will happen. This caused White Rose not to change.

Had you actually left two years ago, things would have been much different. Your leaving now, forced her to change.


----------



## the guy

jim123 said:


> Chris did not help and actually helped you along with not standing up for himself for two years.


That's kind a phucked up!


----------



## Chris989

jim123 said:


> It is always actions Chris. If you tell someone every week you are going to leave then do not, at some point they do not think it will happen. This caused White Rose not to change.
> 
> Had you actually left two years ago, things would have been much different. Your leaving now, forced her to change.


I couldn't leave for around 12 months - maybe more.

After that I didn't want to walk out on my children and my life. It was also not viable financially until now.

This is complicated and you are just plain wrong in your assumptions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

the guy said:


> That's kind a phucked up!


Very common. Men tend to be extremes. A slight majority D right away. Another large group of men R at any cost. They rush to R but never heal. This group later ends in D too.

The smallest group of men look for answers within themselves and make changes. They may end up in R but do so out of strength. This group survives.


----------



## jim123

Chris989 said:


> I couldn't leave for around 12 months - maybe more.
> 
> After that I didn't want to walk out on my children and my life. It was also not viable financially until now.
> 
> This is complicated and you are just plain wrong in your assumptions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok then there was another 12. Then you remarry. Then after 6 moths you leave.

There are always ways to make things happen, if you want.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> I think that question of whether WR should be with Chris or not is not the main issue and has been settled by Chris and WR by their words below
> 
> 
> 
> WR forgiving herself and her children forgiving her is HUGE!
> 
> WR will always live with some of the consequences of her actions but hating herself is not necessary nor need be permanent. The forgiveness issue is more important than whether WR should be with Chris or not; that seems to be settled as divorce or separated and not striving to have a deep 100% relationship such as they had hoped for.
> 
> WR’s priority should be her improving and her children and forgiveness is an important issue in her getting better and her children’s relationship with their mother.
> 
> 
> BY WR
> Mr Blunt, i'm being lazy here but who was it that you recommended I look up who'd had an affair and reconciled?


That must be B1 and EI. You can read a LOT of posts on those two in the “Reconciliation” thread by B1 on CWI. There is over two years of posts by B1 and EI and they are doing great and coming up on 3 years of R.

There are a ton of resources on the internet on forgiveness and I would highly recommend that you also include those resources. The one that I used was forgiveness by Dr. Charles Stanley. Do not get discouraged and quit but keep utilizing resources until you find one that works then you will get a lot better. It is never too late for you to accept forgiveness even if you have to suffer some consequences for your past actions.

You have children and are a mom so you are very important to them and I assume you will do anything to help them. *Be diligent, never give up, and get better; you will be much happier and so will your children. God is a God of second, third, fourth, etc. chances!*


----------



## Mr Blunt

Chris
Do not beat yourself up over the past. You cannot change the past but you can change the future. You are a resourseful man so I know that you can find the right plan for your future. You following the right plan for years will bring you a lot of relief and satisfaction


----------



## Chris989

jim123 said:


> Ok then there was another 12. Then you remarry. Then after 6 moths you leave.
> 
> There are always ways to make things happen, if you want.


I'm not sure what your point is but this is WR's thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## As'laDain

WR, Post!


----------



## MattMatt

Reconciliation is a long, on going process.

I still believe that WR and Chris could have a future together so long as they avoid Relate counsellors.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

jim123 said:


> It is always actions Chris. If you tell someone every week you are going to leave then do not, at some point they do not think it will happen. This caused White Rose not to change.
> 
> Had you actually left two years ago, things would have been much different. Your leaving now, forced her to change.


It's simple really, if I'd done some of the simple things he wanted he'd still be here and not with or thinking about another woman. I chose not to do this because I didn't ever think he'd leave the kids or have an affair himself even if the marriage was in bad shape. It's my fault and I have to work out why I didn't.


----------



## jim123

White Rose said:


> It's simple really, if I'd done some of the simple things he wanted he'd still be here and not with or thinking about another woman. I chose not to do this because I didn't ever think he'd leave the kids or have an affair himself even if the marriage was in bad shape. It's my fault and I have to work out why I didn't.


There is nothing to work on. If you really loved Chris would have done anything. Time to let go and move on. Time to be honest with yourself.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

jim123 said:


> There is nothing to work on. If you really loved Chris would have done anything. Time to let go and move on. Time to be honest with yourself.


I do love him, I didn't do enough. I was selfish and I did do sensitive stuff but not as often as I should, yes I slacked because I thought he'd stay but I would do this stuff now. Some stuff I've done I felt uncomfortable doing before and yes when he left i was on it in a flash. Not because I didn't love him. I couldn't feel like this about someone i didn't love. It's not a lifestyle I'm bothered about losing, money has never interested me and we've been in a lot of debt the last few years nearly losing our home and for those who think I may be after Chris because his fortunes have changed recently I'd like to point out my father left me a house and land and I am able to manage with my job if I sold it all. I want to be with this man because I love him. It's not looking like we will get back and in that case I'll move on in time, just not yet. If he's still prepared to talk to me then it's our dilemma to sort. R is not on the table now so I just have to become a better person for me, girls and to show him I can.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> WR, Post!


I am, had a crap time last few days thinking R was on the cards and then not and one big downer which has been so painful. Anyhow back on the horse now and looking for help and answers. Only today when we were talking when he came to see the girls he told me a txt I sent was BS. I'd sent this to try and help him with an issue he had but he pulled it apart and said I was telling half truths or justifying my actions after the fact, it had really annoyed him. I shall post further about this tomorrow as I'd like advice as to what you guys think. It was about how I felt when the affair ended.


----------



## Chris989

White Rose said:


> I do love him, I didn't do enough. I was selfish and I did do sensitive stuff but not as often as I should, yes I slacked because I thought he'd stay but I would do this stuff now. Some stuff I've done I felt uncomfortable doing before and yes when he left i was on it in a flash. Not because I didn't love him. I couldn't feel like this about someone i didn't love. It's not a lifestyle I'm bothered about losing, money has never interested me and we've been in a lot of debt the last few years nearly losing our home and for those who think I may be after Chris because his fortunes have changed recently I'd like to point out my father left me a house and land and I am able to manage with my job if I sold it all. I want to be with this man because I love him. It's not looking like we will get back and in that case I'll move on in time, just not yet. If he's still prepared to talk to me then it's our dilemma to sort. R is not on the table now so I just have to become a better person for me, girls and to show him I can.


Your father left you nothing although my deep knowledge, persistence, patience and legal threats put you in the fortunate position you are.

I agree you aren't interested in money but at least get the facts right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Edit; and within 6 months of us running into trouble you were in another man's bed.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Chris989 said:


> Your father left you nothing although my deep knowledge, persistence, patience and legal threats put you in the fortunate position you are.
> 
> I agree you aren't interested in money but at least get the facts right.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Edit; and within 6 months of us running into trouble you were in another man's bed.


I was just making the point that I am not wanting to R because of financial reasons. I did not do what I did because we were in debt. We have been for a long time now and since it all finished was no exception. Granted your new job should be financially better for you but that is not why I am interested in this relationship. I didn't go into you sorting my fathers affairs out to enable me to be financially secure as it was not relevant but I am greatfull for that and thank you. 
I was merely saying I am not in this for financial gain. I know you don't believe that for one minute.


----------



## MattMatt

Is it possible that at a time of great emotional turmoil that was severely impacting upon WR, that a work colleague of WR was able to identify this and, perhaps using a combination of his skills as a sexual player and the skills that he had learned for his work role managed to convince WR that he was a knight in shining armour rather than a marriage wrecker?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

White Rose said:


> Mr Blunt, i'm being lazy here but who was it that you recommended I look up who'd had an affair and reconciled?


My relationship with my children is much improved. They miss their dad enormously .I can see a change in the youngest with school already and she seems withdrawn and angry She does not want to talk to anyone else about this, i've asked her. Obviously with him out of the house and in another relationship I'm the one they talk to about missing him. My twelve year old tells me she just misses his skin which makes me find it hard to forgive myself as I caused all this for them.


----------



## MattMatt

White Rose said:


> My relationship with my children is much improved. They miss their dad enormously .I can see a change in the youngest with school already and she seems withdrawn and angry She does not want to talk to anyone else about this, i've asked her. Obviously with him out of the house and in another relationship I'm the one they talk to about missing him. My twelve year old tells me she just misses his skin which makes me find it hard to forgive myself as I caused all this for them.


Then do not forgive yourself!

Sometimes we need to tell the "learn to forgive yourself" merchants to take a running jump!

Rather than forgiving ourselves we need to accept the wrong we did and to learn to live with this and, if they will, allow those we wronged to forgive us.

In this case, Chris, your children and the OM's woman and perhaps his children, too?

I am not telling you to seek them out to apologise to them, just be aware of how widespread the impact of what you got involved with was, how many lives it impacted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

MattMatt said:


> Then do not forgive yourself!
> 
> Sometimes we need to tell the "learn to forgive yourself" merchants to take a running jump!
> 
> Rather than forgiving ourselves we need to accept the wrong we did and to learn to live with this and, if they will, allow those we wronged to forgive us.
> 
> In this case, Chris, your children and the OM's woman and perhaps his children, too?
> 
> I am not telling you to seek them out to apologise to them, just be aware of how widespread the impact of what you got involved with was, how many lives it impacted.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yup, forgiving oneself should only come (if ever) after you have atoned for the injuries you have caused. I don't believe that is the case here. In fact I would have to say that the pain from your betrayal has just begun.


----------



## Mr Blunt

WR

*You need to seek forgiveness for yourself so that you do not feel that your life is completely ruined, that you are a permanent POS, and that you have no value and cannot do some good.* You definitely need to do all that you can to make up as much as possible to those that you have injured. However, you will not be able to do that if you think have no value and think that you are a permanent POS. 

* I know that there are some that think that you should not seek forgiveness but without at least some measure of forgiveness you will not be able to do the things that they are suggesting*.

WR, you are very damaged but you can still get better and help your children. Get the right help, get the right plan, and follow it for years and you will become a better person. That will be better for you, your children, and everybody else that you have a relationship with.

Chris has made it clear that it is over with you and him so now ONLY concentrate on you and your children getting better.* If you are still holding on to Chris then you are just harming you getting better.*


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

White Rose said:


> I was just making the point that I am not wanting to R because of financial reasons. I did not do what I did because we were in debt. We have been for a long time now and since it all finished was no exception. Granted your new job should be financially better for you but that is not why I am interested in this relationship. I didn't go into you sorting my fathers affairs out to enable me to be financially secure as it was not relevant but I am greatfull for that and thank you.
> I was merely saying I am not in this for financial gain. I know you don't believe that for one minute.


I was talking to chris about this today, and I should have pointed out that Chris got the issue of my dad's estate sorted out and I am grateful he did this despite being in the pain he was and the anger he felt towards my brothers who knew what was going on and didn't tell him, it was a hard time for him. He wondered if I had left because I had respect issues of him and his losing his job made me think less of him and decide to do what I did. I wouldn't say this was the case. I'd always been very proud of how he did his job. I always thought it was good that he didn't rip people off to earn more money and that he was better at his job than the others. I thought it was just bad luck that he lost his job and didn't feel any differently towards him because of this. I do see that debt puts more strain on marriages and I was angry that we had debt I didn't know about which made things very difficult when our income was reduced to a point that it was hard to see a way out of it without writing it off, which was out of the question. It could have influenced what I did at the time because I was very low but it would have been subconscious if it was.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

White Rose said:


> I do love him, I didn't do enough. I was selfish and I did do sensitive stuff but not as often as I should, yes I slacked because I thought he'd stay but I would do this stuff now. Some stuff I've done I felt uncomfortable doing before and yes when he left i was on it in a flash. Not because I didn't love him. I couldn't feel like this about someone i didn't love. It's not a lifestyle I'm bothered about losing, money has never interested me and we've been in a lot of debt the last few years nearly losing our home and for those who think I may be after Chris because his fortunes have changed recently I'd like to point out my father left me a house and land and I am able to manage with my job if I sold it all. I want to be with this man because I love him. It's not looking like we will get back and in that case I'll move on in time, just not yet. If he's still prepared to talk to me then it's our dilemma to sort. R is not on the table now so I just have to become a better person for me, girls and to show him I can.


If Chris sees me doing a good job of sorting myself out and growing as an honest person he may see I'm serious about being a better person for him. I know he is seeing someone else but i'm not sure of his reasons for this and if he can sort his own issues out with his counselor then there could be a time in the future that could be right for us to be together again. At the moment this is not the time, I know that. He told me he thinks I am sorry for what I did and that he had not thought that before, this has made me feel good about what I'm doing. It has made me a bit proud of myself for the first time in ages and I'm getting emotional thinking about this now. Someone is going to put a finger down throat sign onto their thread, I feel it in my bones but go on those who feel the urge.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

MattMatt said:


> Reconciliation is a long, on going process.
> 
> I still believe that WR and Chris could have a future together so long as they avoid Relate counsellors.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey I hope you're right, unfortunately mine used to do relate stuff. I'm just enjoying getting stuff out. I am praying for thunderbolts if you get what I mean. If you don't I'm not saying. Chris989 you will know what I mean.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Mr Blunt said:


> WR
> 
> *You need to seek forgiveness for yourself so that you do not feel that your life is completely ruined, that you are a permanent POS, and that you have no value and cannot do some good.* You definitely need to do all that you can to make up as much as possible to those that you have injured. However, you will not be able to do that if you think have no value and think that you are a permanent POS.
> 
> * I know that there are some that think that you should not seek forgiveness but without at least some measure of forgiveness you will not be able to do the things that they are suggesting*.
> 
> WR, you are very damaged but you can still get better and help your children. Get the right help, get the right plan, and follow it for years and you will become a better person. That will be better for you, your children, and everybody else that you have a relationship with.
> 
> Chris has made it clear that it is over with you and him so now ONLY concentrate on you and your children getting better.* If you are still holding on to Chris then you are just harming you getting better.*


Hey Blunt, I may be damaged but I'm getting there I hope. Even said a prayer or two recently. Chris said he feels I regret and am sorry for what I did so that's me showing progress to others. He used to say I only regret getting caught. I'm glad i got caught, I'd be more glad, married and husband not sleeping with OW if I hadn't done what I did though. I'm can't forgive myself for what I did but I'm learning to live with it. Of course if I don't R with Chris I will have to tell prospective partners what I've done early in the day and I'm sure it will affect what they think of me. I am quite aware of this. I am however quite sure I could never do this again. I know I never set off in my life thinking I'd do that but after the pain I've caused I'm sure I'll not put anyone through that again. I can't imagine starting a new relationship up anyway which is odd considering what I did. I may find I can't be doing with it because Chris will be hard to match and i'm aware of how many knobs there are out there. i'm also aware of all the nice people out there too.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

I just noticed people like some of what I'm saying. I'm not the best with sites like this so don't know my way around it but just found the likes page. thank you all who do, it makes me feel better.


----------



## MattMatt

White Rose said:


> I just noticed people like some of what I'm saying. I'm not the best with sites like this so don't know my way around it but just found the likes page. thank you all who do, it makes me feel better.


It took me a while to find the "Likes" page on my Control Panel, too!


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By WR
> Chris said he feels I regret and am sorry for what I did so that's me showing progress to others. He used to say I only regret getting caught. I'm glad i got caught, I'd be more glad, married and husband not sleeping with OW if I hadn't done what I did though. I'm can't forgive myself for what I did but I'm learning to live with it.



By your post above it seems you are gaining. Chris feels you are sorry and regret what you did. That says a lot because Chris knows you better than any of us. You are now feeling the pain of what being rejected and replaced means. That pain will be a good monitor for you in the future. You are going to have to endure some more pain for some time but; “NO PAIN, NO GAIN”

I still think you should look into forgiveness. I understand that you cannot forgive yourself right now for what you have done, and that maybe good for now, but if you are to get a LOT better you will have to accept some degree of forgiveness in the future, IMO

Congralations WR you seem to be gaining and going in the right direction!!!


----------



## MattMatt

Have you two tried the counselling and therapy sub-forum on TAM, yet?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DayDream

ConanHub said:


> You should write a book. Could help people. Most of what you wrote is pretty standard from cheater script to the reactions of a BS.
> 
> Do you think if you had studied infidelity before becoming someone you hate, you might have avoided it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wish I had studied it.


----------



## As'laDain

WR, i am really glad you are posting again. 


you seem to have gotten past the fear of being seen in a bad light. that is a good thing. 

now, R is off the table right now, right? so lets hear the things that might piss chris off. 


just ask yourself three questions before you say whatever it is you think might upset him... first, "how do i feel?"
answer that question and then ask yourself... "what made me feel that way?"

after you figure that out and type it out, ask yourself one more question... 

"why did that make me feel that way?" 

you are going to have to understand your own feelings if you are to develop effective strategies for dealing with them.


----------



## TheFlood117

I like Chris, decisive, strong, obviously attractive man. 

I guess you made a mistake huh? 

And now you live with the consequences. 

My wife and you probably could discuss many things. But I'm going to approach this from Christopher's perspective. 

You really, really, hurt him. I mean, it's bad. Not gonna lie. It might be irreversible damage. But..... Guess what.... There is hope. 

I really don't know what made me want to try again with my ex, maybe it was her complete remorsefulness and acceptance for what she did. Maybe it was the gifts or dinners, or conversations about us, or the way she handled herself. But honestly.... I have to say, it was the submission. 

In everything. She submitted to me. Physically, emotionally and spiritually, she just became mine. I have officially claimed her, yet again. 

I know how that sounds, especially in today's liberal feminist dogmatic society we live in. 

But.... .It's true. Read my threads, maybe get an insight on the betrayed male. I played the field.. Big time after my wifes affair, big time. But..... We have been seeing each other for the past 4 months, and only each other. And... It's gone well. 

But she has fully given herself over to me. She is mine. 

And I think that's what it takes. It is what it is. I think that's how men are just built. Their female must be their's and their's alone and she must show this. 

Again tho, I could be wrong. But that's what made me give my ex a second chance. I had to see and feel a 100 percent buy in. Not in the marriage, or even the family unit, but a 100 percent buy in to me and me alone. 

I think that's what it takes. 

Good luck.


----------



## convert

TheFlood117 said:


> I like Chris, decisive, strong, obviously attractive man.
> 
> I guess you made a mistake huh?
> 
> And now you live with the consequences.
> 
> My wife and you probably could discuss many things. But I'm going to approach this from Christopher's perspective.
> 
> You really, really, hurt him. I mean, it's bad. Not gonna lie. It might be irreversible damage. But..... Guess what.... There is hope.
> 
> I really don't know what made me want to try again with my ex, maybe it was her complete remorsefulness and acceptance for what she did. Maybe it was the gifts or dinners, or conversations about us, or the way she handled herself. But honestly.... I have to say, it was the submission.
> 
> In everything. She submitted to me. Physically, emotionally and spiritually, she just became mine. I have officially claimed her, yet again.
> 
> I know how that sounds, especially in today's liberal feminist dogmatic society we live in.
> 
> But.... .It's true. Read my threads, maybe get an insight on the betrayed male. I played the field.. Big time after my wifes affair, big time. But..... We have been seeing each other for the past 4 months, and only each other. And... It's gone well.
> 
> But she has fully given herself over to me. She is mine.
> 
> And I think that's what it takes. It is what it is. I think that's how men are just built. Their female must be their's and their's alone and she must show this.
> 
> Again tho, I could be wrong. But that's what made me give my ex a second chance. I had to see and feel a 100 percent buy in. Not in the marriage, or even the family unit, but a 100 percent buy in to me and me alone.
> 
> I think that's what it takes.
> 
> Good luck.


Oh man if Flood can do it anything is possible.Flood didn't you have pics and/or video of you wife and OM? Didn't you go through with D?


----------



## jim123

TheFlood117 said:


> I like Chris, decisive, strong, obviously attractive man.
> 
> I guess you made a mistake huh?
> 
> And now you live with the consequences.
> 
> My wife and you probably could discuss many things. But I'm going to approach this from Christopher's perspective.
> 
> You really, really, hurt him. I mean, it's bad. Not gonna lie. It might be irreversible damage. But..... Guess what.... There is hope.
> 
> I really don't know what made me want to try again with my ex, maybe it was her complete remorsefulness and acceptance for what she did. Maybe it was the gifts or dinners, or conversations about us, or the way she handled herself. But honestly.... I have to say, it was the submission.
> 
> In everything. She submitted to me. Physically, emotionally and spiritually, she just became mine. I have officially claimed her, yet again.
> 
> I know how that sounds, especially in today's liberal feminist dogmatic society we live in.
> 
> But.... .It's true. Read my threads, maybe get an insight on the betrayed male. I played the field.. Big time after my wifes affair, big time. But..... We have been seeing each other for the past 4 months, and only each other. And... It's gone well.
> 
> But she has fully given herself over to me. She is mine.
> 
> And I think that's what it takes. It is what it is. I think that's how men are just built. Their female must be their's and their's alone and she must show this.
> 
> Again tho, I could be wrong. But that's what made me give my ex a second chance. I had to see and feel a 100 percent buy in. Not in the marriage, or even the family unit, but a 100 percent buy in to me and me alone.
> 
> I think that's what it takes.
> 
> Good luck.


Congrats Flood. Most importantly you have her respect. She knows you can and will move on. She knows you have options. She knows you have value. Because of this you have value to her.

In the long run you need to respect her too. It has to be a partnership.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

convert said:


> Oh man if Flood can do it anything is possible.Flood didn't you have pics and/or video of you wife and OM? Didn't you go through with D?


I like that. I know what you mean now about the buy in, that's what Chris wanted and what I didn't do. I have recently though and have to make him believe I can do that. I think he knows some departments are covered but just wonders if I can maintain it if he comes back. He has asked for space at the moment, has left and has a girlfriend. I'm only just getting my head around the space bit after 26 years of being there so I'm pissing him off to the extent any good progress I made is lost for now. But I'm willing to be very different. I've uncovered a lot of stuff about myself and it isn't pretty and the last thing I wanted to be was owned. I feel as though the power thing I had is gone. Something has made me let go of what it was that made me want to control things and it feels so less stressful. I didn't want to give myself and now I'm like here have me, its up to you, what do you want to do and I'm not struggling with it. He has to believe I can do that long term and that's one of the problems because my form is bad in that department. Hey time will tell if he can heal his heart and head, leave that woman and come home. He told me the other day he was actually having to make himself stay away and missing me but knew he wasn't in a place yet to come back. After him finishing and going back to OW I had a bad time and bombarded him with the same why, when, come home texts and pushed him away. So where now I don't know.


----------



## As'laDain

if chris ever does come back to you, he will have to explain exactly what it is that will cause him to leave again. 

he will have to communicate those things to you and you will have to accept his word as true. either do it or lose him. 


its the only way to be sure of your relationship. you will need to learn to get and give that kind of honesty out of any relationship, no matter where you go from here on out.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

MattMatt said:


> Have you two tried the counselling and therapy sub-forum on TAM, yet?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No what is it? Chris is going his own way with counselling and what he wants from it. I'm trying not to txt him at all at the moment and leave him to talk when he sees the kids from now on as I've been overdoing it and missing my friend (he isn't though now and I'm only just getting that) I don't get what he's going on about any more and he changes his mind with the wind about how he feels about me and her. I'm worried though because he's having panic attacks when he comes to the house when I'm around, I go out of the way most of the time so he I'm out of the way. He thinks it could be guilt and from what I could gather about not coming back. One for the counsellor that but he thinks he has PTSD from the affair and I'm worried. He isn't eating properly either and missing meals when not hungry but he's looking tired and a funny colour. My daughter told me he got a Greggs pasty today and I just burst out in tears and said 'it's all my fault, he's eating Greggs pasties'.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> WR, i am really glad you are posting again.
> 
> 
> you seem to have gotten past the fear of being seen in a bad light. that is a good thing.
> 
> now, R is off the table right now, right? so lets hear the things that might piss chris off.
> 
> 
> just ask yourself three questions before you say whatever it is you think might upset him... first, "how do i feel?"
> answer that question and then ask yourself... "what made me feel that way?"
> 
> after you figure that out and type it out, ask yourself one more question...
> 
> "why did that make me feel that way?"
> 
> you are going to have to understand your own feelings if you are to develop effective strategies for dealing with them.


Ok, that's as clear as mud at the moment but I'm going to have to look at that tomorrow and suss it out. Sounds useful though, thanks.


----------



## As'laDain

White Rose said:


> Ok, that's as clear as mud at the moment but I'm going to have to look at that tomorrow and suss it out. Sounds useful though, thanks.


let me make it clearer... 


you are still worried about how chris feels. this is causing you to cherry pick the things you are willing to communicate because you are afraid of upsetting him. upsetting him causes you to feel guilty. 


so, stop worrying about upsetting him and speak the truth when it comes to how you feel. otherwise, you wont be communicating properly. you will be holding things back. 
im saying you should be willing to suffer the guilt of upsetting him in order to let him fully understand where your coming from and how you feel. 

but of course, in order to do that, you must know what the truth is. hence the three things i think you should do in regards to communicating your feelings.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> if chris ever does come back to you, he will have to explain exactly what it is that will cause him to leave again.
> 
> he will have to communicate those things to you and you will have to accept his word as true. either do it or lose him.
> 
> 
> its the only way to be sure of your relationship. you will need to learn to get and give that kind of honesty out of any relationship, no matter where you go from here on out.


I know that, I'm prepared. He has to be able to trust me and that's the sticking point. And it has to be said he's told me a few lies as well but I still think if he did come back because he ended it that I'd trust him.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> let me make it clearer...
> 
> 
> you are still worried about how chris feels. this is causing you to cherry pick the things you are willing to communicate because you are afraid of upsetting him. upsetting him causes you to feel guilty.
> 
> 
> so, stop worrying about upsetting him and speak the truth when it comes to how you feel. otherwise, you wont be communicating properly. you will be holding things back.
> im saying you should be willing to suffer the guilt of upsetting him in order to let him fully understand where your coming from and how you feel.
> 
> but of course, in order to do that, you must know what the truth is. hence the three things i think you should do in regards to communicating your feelings.


Thanks, I will look at that, I will but I need to sleep now so thank you.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

convert said:


> Oh man if Flood can do it anything is possible.Flood didn't you have pics and/or video of you wife and OM? Didn't you go through with D?


My problem is and he told me this earlier that he can't trust I will be different this time if he comes back. He has been seeing someone for about 6 weeks now but says his head is wanting to come back but in his heart he can't trust me. He said he needs more time and perhaps it will feel different. I want to be like your wife, I just cant make him see I can do this. He said I was ready to give up on him and it had only been 6 months but I feel hurt about the other woman. He said it is nothing to do with her he just can't come back yet. I can't see how if he can't trust me now how any longer will make him trust me more in that department. I am happy to wait around a while and perhaps him seeing me on my own and not with anyone may do it, I just cant see what can change that. Is it possible for that to come back with time.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> if chris ever does come back to you, he will have to explain exactly what it is that will cause him to leave again.
> 
> he will have to communicate those things to you and you will have to accept his word as true. either do it or lose him.
> 
> 
> its the only way to be sure of your relationship. you will need to learn to get and give that kind of honesty out of any relationship, no matter where you go from here on out.


Was just saying to Jim that Chris is making sounds about coming back. He told me and his mum at Xmas that he had to sort this mess out, finish with the other woman and give me another chance. He did this but then couldn't come back because he wasn't ready. He went back with the other woman as he put it because she kept saying if he's not seeing anyone they may as well take it day by day. He then said to me he was having to actively stop himself from coming back because he knew he wasn't ready but wanted to. He said he would love to lie at the side of me but would be wondering when I was going to stop doing the things he wants. He keeps getting very stressed at the house when I'm there but was better today. He thought the stress could be because he feels guilt for not coming home. I don't think I can show him can I in any way that he can trust me, he doesn't mean about cheating again but keeping him happy emotionally and physically. I don't know how to be with him at all. We are still close and as mushy as it sounds when we look at each other there is so much love you can feel it and he is still passionate towards me which is on and off but always hugs me and takes my hand etc. I know he needs space and I'm finally getting my head around this. I'm not stopping looking for self improvement and want to show him I'm serious.


----------



## G.J.

White Rose said:


> No what is it? Chris is going his own way with counselling and what he wants from it. I'm trying not to txt him at all at the moment and leave him to talk when he sees the kids from now on as I've been overdoing it and missing my friend (he isn't though now and I'm only just getting that) I don't get what he's going on about any more and he changes his mind with the wind about how he feels about me and her. I'm worried though because he's having panic attacks when he comes to the house when I'm around, I go out of the way most of the time so he I'm out of the way. He thinks it could be guilt and from what I could gather about not coming back. One for the counsellor that but he thinks he has PTSD from the affair and I'm worried. He isn't eating properly either and missing meals when not hungry but he's looking tired and a funny colour. My daughter told me he got a Greggs pasty today and I just burst out in tears and said 'it's all my fault, he's eating Greggs pasties'.


Gregg,s pasties....Osbournes got a lot to answer for


----------



## MattMatt

White Rose said:


> No what is it? Chris is going his own way with counselling and what he wants from it. I'm trying not to txt him at all at the moment and leave him to talk when he sees the kids from now on as I've been overdoing it and missing my friend (he isn't though now and I'm only just getting that) I don't get what he's going on about any more and he changes his mind with the wind about how he feels about me and her. I'm worried though because he's having panic attacks when he comes to the house when I'm around, I go out of the way most of the time so he I'm out of the way. He thinks it could be guilt and from what I could gather about not coming back. One for the counsellor that but he thinks he has PTSD from the affair and I'm worried. He isn't eating properly either and missing meals when not hungry but he's looking tired and a funny colour. My daughter told me he got a Greggs pasty today and I just burst out in tears and said 'it's all my fault, he's eating Greggs pasties'.


The link is here Counseling and Professional Help

Greggs pasties? What? No Morrisons selling their homemade Tin Miner's pasties in your town? 

Come on Chris, mate! Get a grip! Get a grip on a Morison's Tin Miner's Pasty! The Cornish Pasty presents: The Morrisons Tin Miner Pasty


----------



## MattMatt

G.J. said:


> Gregg,s pasties....Osbournes got a lot to answer for


I sometimes have their corned beef pasty. I get terrible indigestion but it's worth it.


----------



## Pinche Culero

MattMatt said:


> I sometimes have their corned beef pasty. I get terrible indigestion but it's worth it.


Hopefully belching from the top and not from the bottom.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Ok, so I knew that would cause pasty mayhem!! But on a serious note had a good session today with the counselor and looked at my relationship with my dad whom I'm thinking and she agreed I got learned behaviour from that affected how I negatively interacted with Chris for years before the affair. It was something I was totally unaware of until i started writing and talking to my brother about it. I don't think its a coincidence and I'm looking for excuses here and I feel a bit of a weight lifted because I've found some possible answers through thinking and writing that explain some of my past behaviour that affected the marriage. I decided that the only way I could show Chris that I could be trusted in a small way was to show him I was no longer considering my own feelings above his by giving him that space he wanted and not being selfish and keeping txtn him. I think that will let him see I respect his wishes and let him focus on what he wants. On a lighter note I may make some pasties tomorrow.


----------



## MattMatt

White Rose said:


> Ok, so I knew that would cause pasty mayhem!! But on a serious note had a good session today with the counselor and looked at my relationship with my dad whom I'm thinking and she agreed I got learned behaviour from that affected how I negatively interacted with Chris for years before the affair. It was something I was totally unaware of until i started writing and talking to my brother about it. I don't think its a coincidence and I'm looking for excuses here and I feel a bit of a weight lifted because I've found some possible answers through thinking and writing that explain some of my past behaviour that affected the marriage. I decided that the only way I could show Chris that I could be trusted in a small way was to show him I was no longer considering my own feelings above his by giving him that space he wanted and not being selfish and keeping txtn him. I think that will let him see I respect his wishes and let him focus on what he wants. On a lighter note I may make some pasties tomorrow.


Your counsellor seems to be helping you on the way to become the person you should be.

By the way... Are you going to make the pasties with the meat at one end and the jam or apple sauce at the other?


----------



## G.J.

Having never been in a counselling session the problem I foresee with finding out why some one does some thing that a lot of people would do, case in point (yes a lot if you look at stats)

Other than being down to ones own moral compass how can you not end up having an answer that isn't an excuse ?
Don't know if I've worded it correctly


----------



## MattMatt

G.J. said:


> Having never been in a counselling session the problem I foresee with finding out why some one does some thing that a lot of people would do, case in point (yes a lot if you look at stats)
> 
> Other than being down to ones own moral compass how can you not end up having an answer that isn't an excuse ?
> Don't know if I've worded it correctly


It's a bit like showing a person by using a map where they are, pointing out where they should be, then showing them the wrong route they took to get to where they really are.

And then helping them to work out a route to assist them to get where they actually *should* be.


----------



## GusPolinski

convert said:


> Oh man if Flood can do it anything is possible.Flood didn't you have pics and/or video of you wife and OM? Didn't you go through with D?


Honestly, given much of what TheFlood had posted about his pre-affair relationship w/ his wife, I think that quite a few of us probably saw a reconciliation in the cards.

And perhaps he came to the conclusion that, due to his own past transgressions as an OM (and more than once), his wife's affair was a bit of karma directed his way...?

Either way, it's good to hear that he and his ex are doing well these days.


----------



## G.J.

I Asked


> Other than being down to ones own moral compass how can you not end up having an answer that isn't an excuse ?


Because White Rose said



White Rose said:


> I don't think its a coincidence and I'm looking for excuses here and I feel a bit of a weight lifted because I've found some possible answers through thinking and writing that explain some of my past behaviour that affected the marriage..


So I was thinking 
OK.....weight lifted I did it perhaps because of.....so I feel better BUT as she already realized she shouldn't be doing it before during and after and even more now because of the fallout I don't see how some one telling you it was 'learned behaviour from her father' that affected her as she already knows the outcome of the thought process having the affair 
Like a child learns not to put his/her hand on a nail because it hurts


----------



## MattMatt

G.J. said:


> I Asked
> 
> 
> Because White Rose said
> 
> 
> 
> So I was thinking
> OK.....weight lifted I did it perhaps because of.....so I feel better BUT as she already realized she shouldn't be doing it before during and after and even more now because of the fallout I don't see how some one telling you it was 'learned behaviour from her father' that affected her as she already knows the outcome of the thought process having the affair
> Like a child learns not to put his/her hand on a nail because it hurts


Because by identifying why someone does something can help them use a variety of methods to ensure they do not do it in the future.


----------



## G.J.

MattMatt said:


> Because by identifying why someone does something can help them use a variety of methods to ensure they do not do it in the future.


BUT ...she knows not to do it as per putting your hand on the nail....she has learnt the hard way except this time she has an excuse why she did it


----------



## GusPolinski

GusPolinski said:


> Honestly, given much of what TheFlood had posted about his pre-affair relationship w/ his wife, I think that quite a few of us probably saw a reconciliation in the cards.
> 
> And perhaps he came to the conclusion that, due to his own past transgressions as an OM (and more than once), his wife's affair was a bit of karma directed his way...?
> 
> Either way, it's good to hear that he and his ex are doing well these days.


It's probably also worth noting that, _per TheFlood's post earlier in this thread_, his ex appears to have demonstrated remorse -- along w/ a genuine desire to reconcile (and everything that could reasonably be expected to come along w/ _both_) -- *FROM THE START*.


----------



## Squeakr

G.J. said:


> BUT ...she knows not to do it as per putting your hand on the nail....she has learnt the hard way except this time she has an excuse why she did it


I too sometimes have a hard time with counseling as I think the same way in that it just gives another excuse or reason for the bad behavior. Now if it is with a psychiatrist and they find that something is wrong that only medicine will help (due to some medical deficincy) then I give it a little more weight and merit as maybe the person just can't make the correct decisions in their current u medicated state. I feel that with counseling if they really want to make a change they can do so on their own and no deeper insight will change that desire to change but just give them another excuse to pin it on when it fails cause they really didn't want to. IE "I couldn't change no matter how I tried as I have inherent daddy issues brought on by my early abandonment." It gives them a reason/ excuse/ justification when their half hearted efforts fail. You can't change the past so knowing that you felt rejected 30 years ago because of your dad helps how? People change so not everything you do today is because of something that happened eons ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## G.J.

Squeakr said:


> I too sometimes have a hard time with counseling as I think the same way in that it just gives another excuse or reason for the bad behavior. Now if it is with a psychiatrist and they find that something is wrong that only medicine will help (due to some medical deficincy) then I give it a little more weight and merit as maybe the person just can't make the correct decisions in their current u medicated state. I feel that with counseling if they really want to make a change they can do so on their own and no deeper insight will change that desire to change but just give them another excuse to pin it on when it fails cause they really didn't want to. IE "I couldn't change no matter how I tried as I have inherent daddy issues brought on by my early abandonment." It gives them a reason/ excuse/ justification when their half hearted efforts fail. You can't change the past so knowing that you felt rejected 30 years ago because of your dad helps how? People change so not everything you do today is because of something that happened eons ago.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmm yes I would agree especially the medical deficiency as our brain is a electric/chemical organ
so behaviour is defined by prior experience generally and the person has free will in all cases and
knows what the accepted norm is therefore unless the aforementioned comes into play an excuse
can only be found for the root but never for the decision


----------



## bfree

I think people are confused as to what counseling actually is and does. As adults we are made up of all the experiences we had in childhood, both good and bad. Many times things happen in childhood that we consciously know are immoral but when the concentration is lacking or when we are just living and not analyzing as we do most of the time we do things that we might realize are wrong but they are still done in the spur of the moment. Case in point, I am a recovering drug abuser and always will be even though I haven't touched non prescribed drug in over 20 years. I knew drugs were bad. Never tried them in high school or college. Yet when my ex W cheated on me and I fell down the rabbit hole I used drugs more and more to cope until I was hooked. Why? There is probably no way to know for sure. I had an aunt growing up who I was very close to. She coped with life by taking a little white "mommy's helper" several times a day. Did her drug use cause my own? No. But maybe that first time when I was faced with the choice to take drugs or not that experience in my childhood influenced my decision just enough to push me off the fence to the wrong side. Counseling helps you to identify these often seemingly innocuous memories and counteract them by developing healthier coping skills when your brain goes into auto pilot.


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## G.J.

bfree said:


> I think people are confused as to what counseling actually is and does. As adults we are made up of all the experiences we had in childhood, both good and bad. Many times things happen in childhood that we consciously know are immoral but when the concentration is lacking or when we are just living and not analyzing as we do most of the time we do things that we might realize are wrong but they are still done in the spur of the moment. Case in point, I am a recovering drug abuser and always will be even though I haven't touched non prescribed drug in over 20 years. I knew drugs were bad. Never tried them in high school or college. Yet when my ex W cheated on me and I fell down the rabbit hole I used drugs more and more to cope until I was hooked. Why? There is probably no way to know for sure. I had an aunt growing up who I was very close to. She coped with life by taking a little white "mommy's helper" several times a day. Did her drug use cause my own? No. But maybe that first time when I was faced with the choice to take drugs or not that experience in my childhood influenced my decision just enough to push me off the fence to the wrong side. Counseling helps you to identify these often seemingly innocuous memories and counteract them by developing healthier coping skills when your brain goes into auto pilot.


You have used drugs = you know the problems related to them and to others around you
to do so again is a fully conscious choice and no matter what's pointed out in your history
will have no bearing on the correct choice next time round as you choose it knowing the
full implications, albeit drug use is chemical hence my agreement with Squeakr ref
medical deficiency as how drug use would alter the brain centre possibly for life the way smoking
does e.g. the craving never fully goes away but it does diminish.
So if no medical deficiency then the only input is having knowledge of what's expected of some one
to act decently when older is choice related with a tenancy to excuse the action with a child hood memory

hope that's clear ?
hope this isn't hijacking thread as I would think thought process is at heart of the thread?


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## Squeakr

I think the only thing good that comes from analyzing the past in counseling is that we may somehow realize that the problem has been there longer than we realized. I don't honestly see how knowing that we were wrong'd somehow in our youth will change how we address issue and make our choices differently in real time. We are still going to make our choices based upon data available at the time due to our environment. I don't know anyone that has learned something from their past that when faced with the situation will say.."Wow, I remember when I was 12 I did x, now what should I do as that was wrong?" 

Does your Aunt's usage of that drug, somehow change or influence your choices today when faced with them? If so, how are they changed by such memories/ understandings of the past? I only think our experiences and consequences from the past are the one's that make us take notice, such as the hot stove syndrome if one has ever been burned, not knowing that someone in our past was burned.


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## MattMatt

G.J. said:


> BUT ...she knows not to do it as per putting your hand on the nail....she has learnt the hard way except this time she has an excuse why she did it


That might be confusing reason for excuse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## G.J.

MattMatt said:


> That might be confusing reason for excuse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


don't follow please explain ?


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## vellocet

MattMatt said:


> That might be confusing reason for excuse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


reason / excuse

Whats the difference?


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## Squeakr

vellocet said:


> reason / excuse
> 
> Whats the difference?


I would say reason is a verifiable and prudent explanation of something happening and why, whereas an excuse is covering for reactions due to unacceptable behavior and placing blame onto something else (usually considered to be outside of ones control). They are not always interchangeable, although neither corrects the issue.

You could reason that the engine blew up because the oil level was low and you didn't put a sufficient amount of oil in. An excuse would be that even though the light was on, your good for nothing spouse didn't listen to you and add oil so the engine blew due to them not doing their job.


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## vellocet

Squeakr said:


> I would say reason is a verifiable and prudent explanation of something happening and why, whereas an excuse is covering for reactions due to unacceptable behavior and placing blame onto something else (usually considered to be outside of ones control). They are not always interchangeable, although neither corrects the issue.


Ok, then by what you just said, anything a WS says to explain the circumstances that lead to an affair are an excuse, and there is no prudent "reason".

IOW, they are all just excuses.


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## Squeakr

vellocet said:


> Ok, then by what you just said, anything a WS says to explain the circumstances that lead to an affair are an excuse, and there is no prudent "reason".
> 
> IOW, they are all just excuses.


Yes and no. Like I said they are not entirely interchangeable as it depends on the situation. What you are discribing could be used as a reason (or proof) for why the marriage was bad and failing. However there are no acceptable reasons for cheating as an alternative and better choice/route always exists, so if used in that defense, then it becomes an excuse (as does anything trying to defend cheating).


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## NoChoice

All of the excuses for cheating are just that, excuses. The reason for cheating is the WS's inability to make the right decision.


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## G.J.

Squeakr said:


> Yes and no. Like I said they are not entirely interchangeable as it depends on the situation. What you are discribing could be used as a reason (or proof) for why the marriage was bad and failing. * However there are no acceptable reasons for cheating as an alternative and better choice/route always exists, so if used in that defense, then it becomes an excuse* (as does anything trying to defend cheating).



<in the voice of Julie Andrews> 
'Which brings me back to Doe.. a deer, a female deer... ray a drop of golden sun'


That brings it back to my thoughts


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## bfree

G.J. said:


> You have used drugs = you know the problems related to them and to others around you
> to do so again is a fully conscious choice and no matter what's pointed out in your history
> will have no bearing on the correct choice next time round as you choose it knowing the
> full implications, albeit drug use is chemical hence my agreement with Squeakr ref
> medical deficiency as how drug use would alter the brain centre possibly for life the way smoking
> does e.g. the craving never fully goes away but it does diminish.
> So if no medical deficiency then the only input is having knowledge of what's expected of some one
> to act decently when older is choice related with a tenancy to excuse the action with a child hood memory
> 
> hope that's clear ?
> hope this isn't hijacking thread as I would think thought process is at heart of the thread?


Yes, now I do know first hand the damage drugs cause. This New experience somewhat counterbalances my childhood experiences. But I still needed to learn effective and healthy coping skills because I also learned that drugs do in fact temporary lessen pain. So in my case counseling helped me to unwind the damaged parts of my mind and integrate new learned behaviors so that history will not be repeated.


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## 2ntnuf

*excuse* - the dog ate my homework, that's why I can't turn it in on time. Seemingly, one believes they are excused from *accountability* because of the actions of someone or something else.


*reason* - I left my homework on the coffee table. When I walked away to get a cup of tea, the dog grabbed it and ate it. Accepts *accountability* for their actions in the situation.


I think accountability is the key to understanding the difference between excuses and reasons.


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## vellocet

2ntnuf said:


> *excuse* - the dog ate my homework, that's why I can't turn it in on time. Seemingly, one believes they are excused from *accountability* because of the actions of someone or something else.
> 
> 
> *reason* - I left my homework on the coffee table. When I walked away to get a cup of tea, the dog grabbed it and ate it. Accepts *accountability* for their actions in the situation.
> 
> 
> I think accountability is the key to understanding the difference between excuses and reasons.


Only thing about your example here is this:



> *reason* - I left my homework on the coffee table. When I walked away to get a cup of tea, the dog grabbed it and ate it. Accepts *accountability* for their actions in the situation.


If we apply this to the WS's "reason", then the above is saying that the BSs traits/behaviors, etc is a result of what the WS did.

When a WS "explains" what led up to the affair, I have NEVER heard them say that their BS was the way they were because of something the WS did.

Its always, I cheated because my BS was this way.

What you are saying in your example is "yes my BSs behavior is the 'reason' I ended up doing what I did, but my BS behaved that way because of something I did or didn't do" And that's just not what we hear here. (hopefully that makes sense the way I described it)

Accountability for cheating would take the form of: "my BS did nothing to cause me to cheat, I cheated because I":

"wanted someone else"
"liked the excitement"
"got bored with married life"
etc.

Accountability wouldn't be highlighting all the things you didn't like about one's BS.


----------



## G.J.

2ntnuf said:


> *excuse* - the dog ate my homework, that's why I can't turn it in on time. Seemingly, one believes they are excused from *accountability* because of the actions of someone or something else.
> 
> 
> *reason* - I left my homework on the coffee table. When I walked away to get a cup of tea, the dog grabbed it and ate it. Accepts *accountability* for their actions in the situation.
> 
> 
> I think accountability is the key to understanding the difference between excuses and reasons.


*accountability* That's the word :smthumbup:


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## 2ntnuf

vellocet said:


> Only thing about your example here is this:
> 
> 
> 
> If we apply this to the WS's "reason", then the above is saying that the BSs traits/behaviors, etc is a result of what the WS did.
> 
> When a WS "explains" what led up to the affair, I have NEVER heard them say that their BS was the way they were because of something the WS did.
> 
> Its always, I cheated because my BS was this way.
> 
> What you are saying in your example is "yes my BSs behavior is the 'reason' I ended up doing what I did, but my BS behaved that way because of something I did or didn't do" And that's just not what we hear here. (hopefully that makes sense the way I described it)
> 
> Accountability for cheating would take the form of: "my BS did nothing to cause me to cheat, I cheated because I":
> 
> "wanted someone else"
> "liked the excitement"
> "got bored with married life"
> etc.
> 
> Accountability wouldn't be highlighting all the things you didn't like about one's BS.


I'm not sure I understand your example. Let me put it a different way. And, maybe reason and excuse are the wrong words to use altogether?

A reason in my mind the WS might use is this:

I was feeling like I was not worth much because my husband was not having sex with me. It made me feel inadequate as a woman and a wife. I went out with some female friends to forget my troubles for a while and maybe laugh a little. I met some man at the bar and he spoke to me in ways that made me feel like a desirable woman again. I wanted that so badly and it felt so good, I succumbed to his affection and wanted more. He was attractive and I let my emotions and need for validation and affection take over and slept with him. It was what I needed at the time, even though I vowed commitment to only my husband. Once it happened, I no longer desired my husband as I once did. He became someone I used to love, in my mind. 

Not sure if that explains it well enough? I think it includes the accountability of the husband and the wife, not blaming one for the other's actions, only stating facts and admitting to the decision to cheat.


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## Squeakr

2ntnuf said:


> I was feeling like *I was not worth much because my husband was not having sex with me*.


How can this not be seen as blaming???


----------



## 2ntnuf

Squeakr said:


> How can this not be seen as blaming???


Well, first of all, I think you have to add the words that you did not put in bold font. Then, you can say that it is blaming, but only for the bad feelings in the marriage, not the decision to cheat. 

Reading further in my example, you will see a clear break in where the WS let her emotions make the decision to cheat for her. She admitted to knowing she made vows and intentionally broke them to feel better, rather than pushing the interloper away and leaving the bar for a less potentially problematic location or activity.


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## bfree

Squeakr said:


> I think the only thing good that comes from analyzing the past in counseling is that we may somehow realize that the problem has been there longer than we realized. I don't honestly see how knowing that we were wrong'd somehow in our youth will change how we address issue and make our choices differently in real time. We are still going to make our choices based upon data available at the time due to our environment. I don't know anyone that has learned something from their past that when faced with the situation will say.."Wow, I remember when I was 12 I did x, now what should I do as that was wrong?"
> 
> Does your Aunt's usage of that drug, somehow change or influence your choices today when faced with them? If so, how are they changed by such memories/ understandings of the past? I only think our experiences and consequences from the past are the one's that make us take notice, such as the hot stove syndrome if one has ever been burned, not knowing that someone in our past was burned.


Does being burned by a hot stove in the past prevent you from being careless and being burned again? Unless you put conscious boundaries in place chances are you're apt to do it again when you aren't thinking.


----------



## Squeakr

2ntnuf said:


> Well, first of all, I think you have to add the words that you did not put in bold font. Then, you can say that it is blaming, but only for the bad feelings in the marriage, not the decision to cheat.
> 
> Reading further in my example, you will see a clear break in where the WS let her emotions make the decision to cheat for her. She admitted to knowing she made vows and intentionally broke them to feel better, rather than pushing the interloper away and leaving the bar for a less potentially problematic location or activity.


Yes, but you have to get through the first part (the bolded part) to get to the others. It is flat out blaming the other for their feelings, which then allows them to "excuse" what happened later as they show that the chain was started by the first feelings created. It is like saying "I know I did something wrong, BUT..." you just start immediately hearing an excuse for the bad behavior coming through after the BUT. It is just the way that things happen.

Tell me it was not blaming... as it was.


----------



## vellocet

2ntnuf said:


> I'm not sure I understand your example. Let me put it a different way. And, maybe reason and excuse are the wrong words to use altogether?
> 
> A reason in my mind the WS might use is this:
> 
> I was feeling like I was not worth much because my husband was not having sex with me. It made me feel inadequate as a woman and a wife. I went out with some female friends to forget my troubles for a while and maybe laugh a little. I met some man at the bar and he spoke to me in ways that made me feel like a desirable woman again. I wanted that so badly and it felt so good, I succumbed to his affection and wanted more. He was attractive and I let my emotions and need for validation and affection take over and slept with him. It was what I needed at the time, even though I vowed commitment to only my husband. Once it happened, I no longer desired my husband as I once did. He became someone I used to love, in my mind.
> 
> Not sure if that explains it well enough? I think it includes the accountability of the husband and the wife, not blaming one for the other's actions, only stating facts and admitting to the decision to cheat.


To me, that's still an excuse because it all points back to what her husband did or didn't do.


----------



## vellocet

2ntnuf said:


> Well, first of all, I think you have to add the words that you did not put in bold font. Then, you can say that it is blaming, but only for the bad feelings in the marriage, not the decision to cheat.


Its still blaming. Its pointing back to that which happened in the marriage that formed her decision to cheat.

By saying what her H did or didn't do, she is laying the groundwork for doing what she did, and if her husband had sex with her to her satisfaction, cheating wouldn't have happened, according to her "reason".

Still excuses, still blaming.


----------



## Squeakr

bfree said:


> Does being burned by a hot stove in the past prevent you from being careless and being burned again? Unless you put conscious boundaries in place chances are you're apt to do it again when you aren't thinking.


Not fair, as you are talking about being careless and making a "true" mistake in being burned the second time against something that requires a decision or choice. Accidents happen, which is why they are called accidents. Cheating is not a mistake or accident, so it is not a fair comparison.

You won't "purposely" do something like the burning again (unless you are a masochist, but that is someone with mental issues and an exception), whether the first time was a mistake or not. I saw it in my 2 year old years ago. Turned the head for a second and she placed her hands on the fireplace screen. Immediately had 2nd degree burns and a waffle pattern on her hands that lasted for weeks. Did she ever accidentally come in contact with the screen again? Yes. Did she "purposely" do it? No. In fact one time a month later she walked towards the screen and we said "Get away, remember waffle hands?" She immediately hid her hands behind her back, made a foul face, and ran in the opposite direction. She would even tell my other girl, "No, waffle hands!" and point to the screen (whether the fire was present or not).


----------



## 2ntnuf

Squeakr said:


> Yes, but you have to get through the first part (the bolded part) to get to the others. It is flat out blaming the other for their feelings, which then allows them to "excuse" what happened later as they show that the chain was started by the first feelings created. It is like saying "I know I did something wrong, BUT..." you just start immediately hearing an excuse for the bad behavior coming through after the BUT. It is just the way that things happen.
> 
> Tell me it was not blaming... as it was.


I admitted it was blaming and you have to leave the unbolded part in to see that it is blame for her emotions. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong here. 

I don't think that a human can, when in such an emotional turmoil, whether the husband or the wife, be as objective and logical as many would like, including me. It takes time to separate what you claim I am not, ie.: who is accountable for what? 

Do I believe the decision to cheat is solely on the one having sex with someone other than their spouse? Yes, I do. 

In most cases, both are accountable for the crappy marriage, but only one is accountable for the actions, whether that is cheating, abuse, or picking their nose. Had to throw that last ridiculous one in there. It made me smile when I thought it.


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## MattMatt

vellocet said:


> reason / excuse
> 
> Whats the difference?


A reason is why you do something. 

An excuse is when you continue to do something, even though you know it is harmful to yourself or to others. Perhaps even after the reason has been pointed out to you.


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## vellocet

MattMatt said:


> A reason is why you do something.
> 
> An excuse is when you continue to do something, even though you know it is harmful to yourself or to others. Perhaps even after the reason has been pointed out to you.


Nah, WSs give their "reason" here all the time. And that "reason", more times than not, is what their spouse did or didn't do to cause them to cheat. 

Still an excuse.....and blameshifting.


----------



## bfree

Squeakr said:


> Not fair, as you are talking about being careless and making a "true" mistake in being burned the second time against something that requires a decision or choice. Accidents happen, which is why they are called accidents. Cheating is not a mistake or accident, so it is not a fair comparison.
> 
> You won't "purposely" do something like the burning again (unless you are a masochist, but that is someone with mental issues and an exception), whether the first time was a mistake or not. I saw it in my 2 year old years ago. Turned the head for a second and she placed her hands on the fireplace screen. Immediately had 2nd degree burns and a waffle pattern on her hands that lasted for weeks. Did she ever accidentally come in contact with the screen again? Yes. Did she "purposely" do it? No. In fact one time a month later she walked towards the screen and we said "Get away, remember waffle hands?" She immediately hid her hands behind her back, made a foul face, and ran in the opposite direction. She would even tell my other girl, "No, waffle hands!" and point to the screen (whether the fire was present or not).


But you put yourself in the position to get burned again don't you? You made a choice putting haste before caution. The point is that one does not say "I think I'll cheat today" any more than one says "I think I'll stick a needle in my arm today." It's a series of careless choices and thoughtless decisions that bring you from point a to point z. I believe those small steps can and are influenced by past experience and it is that influence that must be counteracted if one is to avoid repeating the same harmful behavior.


----------



## 2ntnuf

vellocet said:


> To me, that's still an excuse because it all points back to what her husband did or didn't do.





vellocet said:


> Its still blaming. Its pointing back to that which happened in the marriage that formed her decision to cheat.
> 
> By saying what her H did or didn't do, she is laying the groundwork for doing what she did, and if her husband had sex with her to her satisfaction, cheating wouldn't have happened, according to her "reason".
> 
> Still excuses, still blaming.


So, tell me how you figure the husband, in my example, would have any blame for marital discord as many so often claim, but not the decision to cheat, as you both are claiming there is no reason for the WS(woman in my example) to feel unwanted?

I understand you logic when wanting to break a WS free from the mental bonds formed by sexual relations with the AP. It is important and I do believe a very good and quick way to make an attempt at breaking those bonds. Once that is broken and the WS admits to deception, no or miscommunication, and sex with someone other than their spouse, how do they address any issues in their marriage? This is assuming the tactics worked and the couple wants to try reconciliation. All of the stuff done previously leads to breaking up the affair and works well.


----------



## vellocet

2ntnuf said:


> So, tell me how you figure the husband, in my example, would have any blame for marital discord as many so often claim, but not the decision to cheat, as you both are claiming there is no reason for the WS(woman in my example) to feel unwanted?


I'm not saying that. I'm saying that someone who cheats and points to what their spouse did or didn't do is blaming their spouse for them getting f***d by someone else.

I felt unwanted in my marriage. My x-wife rejected me constantly, my affections were not reciprocated.

Yet I didn't cheat. Why? Because I control me. My character is different.

I could point to my x-wife's behavior as PART of the problem in our marriage. But if I would have went out and boned another woman, that is on me and my lousy character if I had done that.




> I understand you logic when wanting to break a WS free from the mental bonds formed by sexual relations with the AP. It is important and I do believe a very good and quick way to make an attempt at breaking those bonds. Once that is broken and the WS admits to deception, no or miscommunication, and sex with someone other than their spouse, how do they address any issues in their marriage? This is assuming the tactics worked and the couple wants to try reconciliation. All of the stuff done previously leads to breaking up the affair and works well.


Now all of that, I completely agree. If someone wants to work on a marriage/relationship with me, great, let me know what I can do.

She wants to blame me for her decision to cheat. Nope, ain't happening. I'm not responsible for her character.


----------



## Squeakr

bfree said:


> But you put yourself in the position to get burned again don't you? You made a choice putting haste before caution. *The point is that one does not say "I think I'll cheat today"* any more than one says "I think I'll stick a needle in my arm today." It's a series of careless choices and thoughtless decisions that bring you from point a to point z. I believe those small steps can and are influenced by past experience and it is that influence that must be counteracted if one is to avoid repeating the same harmful behavior.


Have you ever dealt with a cheater? If so how can you make these statements and claims?

I have proof as do others on here (and there are lots of active threads to prove this as well), where the cheater planned out the day, time, place where they were to hook up well in advance and set it up through text, email, phone call and scheduled it on their calendar. Then the day comes. They get up, take a shower, put on their special underwear, makeup, do their hair special, put on special perfume/cologne, get in the car and drive to the rendezvous point, sometimes texting and calling the AP during that time. Then they meet and seal the deed.

You mean to tell me that these were just a group of random and happenstance occurrences and decisions that all happened to culminate in the cheating and they didn't have any plan for it in advance? BS!!


----------



## vellocet

We have gone off on a tangent about definitions of reasons and excuses, I'm partly to blame.

So we probably need to get back on track with the thread, especially since WR is still participating.


----------



## MattMatt

vellocet said:


> Nah, WSs give their "reason" here all the time. And that "reason", more times than not, is what their spouse did or didn't do to cause them to cheat.
> 
> Still an excuse.....and blameshifting.


The problem of people who were sexually abused as children (for example) cheating on their faithful spouse in later life has been discussed on TAM a number of times. (Not saying this is the case with WR, just using an example that I am aware of.)

The problem is that a WS may only know that they want to cheat and do not blame their spouse in any way at all for the cheating.

so under those circumstances there is no blameshifting. And not even a conscious reason/excuse in all cases.


----------



## 2ntnuf

vellocet said:


> I'm not saying that. I'm saying that someone who cheats and points to what their spouse did or didn't do is blaming their spouse for them getting f***d by someone else.
> 
> I felt unwanted in my marriage. My x-wife rejected me constantly, my affections were not reciprocated.
> 
> Yet I didn't cheat. Why? Because I control me. My character is different.
> 
> I could point to my x-wife's behavior as PART of the problem in our marriage. But if I would have went out and boned another woman, that is on me and my lousy character if I had done that.


Actually, I think we are in agreement more than you think. My example was more real world and what could be expected to be heard. It still only blames the husband for the feelings of being unwanted. The WS went to the bar, in my example, with her friends. First off, a decision which leaves much to be desired, since that's where many men and women go to find a date or hookup. It used to be anyway. I'm old. Forgive my lack of understanding of dating sites. 

Secondly, in my example, she admits that she chose to sleep with him because of her feelings. Logic doesn't play a whole lot of role in many affairs. If it did, the WS would likely leave the marriage before cheating, since even they know that it will only make things worse, otherwise, they would not keep it secret. 




vellocet said:


> Now all of that, I completely agree. If someone wants to work on a marriage/relationship with me, great, let me know what I can do.
> 
> She wants to blame me for her decision to cheat. Nope, ain't happening. I'm not responsible for her character.


You agree, but did not answer my question. How do you work on the issues in the marriage, if only the WS is to blame for the problems therein?

I still don't see how my example blamed the BS for the decision to cheat. I don't think it does. It only blames the BS for the marital discord. What came after was laid squarely on the shoulders of the cheater. Sometimes it's difficult to be objective.


----------



## bfree

Squeakr said:


> Not fair, as you are talking about being careless and making a "true" mistake in being burned the second time against something that requires a decision or choice. Accidents happen, which is why they are called accidents. Cheating is not a mistake or accident, so it is not a fair comparison.
> 
> You won't "purposely" do something like the burning again (unless you are a masochist, but that is someone with mental issues and an exception), whether the first time was a mistake or not. I saw it in my 2 year old years ago. Turned the head for a second and she placed her hands on the fireplace screen. Immediately had 2nd degree burns and a waffle pattern on her hands that lasted for weeks. Did she ever accidentally come in contact with the screen again? Yes. Did she "purposely" do it? No. In fact one time a month later she walked towards the screen and we said "Get away, remember waffle hands?" She immediately hid her hands behind her back, made a foul face, and ran in the opposite direction. She would even tell my other girl, "No, waffle hands!" and point to the screen (whether the fire was present or not).


So you jogged your daughter's memory recalling a prior experience she had and helped her to create safeguards do the harmful behavior wouldn't be repeated. Isn't that pretty much what a counselor does?


----------



## Squeakr

bfree said:


> So you jogged your daughter's memory recalling a prior experience she had and helped her to create safeguards do the harmful behavior wouldn't be repeated. Isn't that pretty much what a counselor does?


Don't agree. You are making an assumption that the person remembers or even had some effect/ consequence from the prior event this counselor is dredging up. What did you learn or were affected from your Aunts drug use? Nothing, so bringing that up did what?? What does one learn from remembering that their childhood was horrible? Nothing. In these cases all it does is serve to bring up bad memories. It doesn't facilitate any change. The person has to want to change in order for anything to happen and no amount of memory dredging will influence or help that.


How did jogging her memory stop it from accidentally happening in the future, as your prior claims is that it wouldn't stop the future behavior from accidentally occurring. Do you even have a clue what point you arguing anymore, as from what I can see it is just trying to pick apart the posts of others without really proving your original ideal/ point?


----------



## user_zero

bfree said:


> But you put yourself in the position to get burned again don't you? You made a choice putting haste before caution. The point is that one does not say "I think I'll cheat today" any more than one says "I think I'll stick a needle in my arm today." It's a *series of careless choices and thoughtless decisions* that bring you from point a to point z. I believe those small steps can and are influenced by past experience and it is that influence that must be counteracted if one is to avoid repeating the same harmful behavior.


maybe there is no thought or plan pre the first encounter. but after that there is plan and thought. for example if you are at work and you wanna go to your AP. you would tell your wife that you have to work longer hours on some emergency project. OR if you are a stay at home wife. you would go to your affair partner in your husband work hours. especially when you know he has very busy day. so you know it's very unlikely he checks up on you. see there is your though and planning.

don't you see it?


----------



## bfree

Squeakr said:


> Have you ever dealt with a cheater? If so how can you make these statements and claims?
> 
> I have proof as do others on here (and there are lots of active threads to prove this as well), where the cheater planned out the day, time, place where they were to hook up well in advance and set it up through text, email, phone call and scheduled it on their calendar. Then the day comes. They get up, take a shower, put on their special underwear, makeup, do their hair special, put on special perfume/cologne, get in the car and drive to the rendezvous point, sometimes texting and calling the AP during that time. Then they meet and seal the deed.
> 
> You mean to tell me that these were just a group of random and happenstance occurrences and decisions that all happened to culminate in the cheating and they didn't have any plan for it in advance? BS!!


Yes I have dealt with many disloyal spouses as part of the group I ran with others. As for proof, I don't believe there is any such thing when it comes to human behavior. While there are similarities each situation is unique.


----------



## bfree

user_zero said:


> maybe there is no thought or plan pre the first encounter. but after that there is plan and thought. for example if you are at work and you wanna go to your AP. you would tell your wife that you have to work longer hours on some emergency project. OR if you are a stay at home wife. you would go to your affair partner in your husband work hours. especially when you know he has very busy day. so you know it's very unlikely he checks up on you. see there is your though and planning.
> 
> don't you see it?


That's exactly my point. There was no thought or plan insofar as the initial incident goes. After that it's a slippery slope that is often very difficult to stop. Counseling can help put boundaries in place do that the initial incident ends differently.


----------



## Squeakr

bfree said:


> Yes I have dealt with many disloyal spouses as part of the group I ran with others. As for proof, I don't believe there is any such thing when it comes to human behavior. While there are similarities each situation is unique.


There might be no proof for human nature (which is not what we were discussing), but you can't deny that when one plans to the 9s in advance about their meetings with their AP, that this is not proof of their intentions. At that point the "chance" of cheating happening is thrown out the window and it becomes a given. When they plan it fully in advance, you can't say that no one wakes up in the morning and says "today I am going to cheat", because if they have planned it out and get up in the morning expecting it to happen as planned, then that is exactly what they have done and are doing. My STBXW and others are living proof. They exchanged emails, set up rendezvous points, and scheduled it on their calendars, their was no happenchance here.


----------



## Squeakr

bfree said:


> That's exactly my point. There was no thought or plan insofar as the initial incident goes. After that it's a slippery slope that is often very difficult to stop. Counseling can help put boundaries in place do that the initial incident ends differently.


Even that is not a sure as some do know that when they meet the person they are going to cheat. My wife did. She had talked to him enough that the first time they were in the room together she threw herself at him. 

Also I don't see how counseling can put boundaries into place that the spouse hasn't already. It is all in the person wanting to change. It is not in the counseling. It is like saying going to the doctor will make me healthier, get in shape, and lose the excess weight I have. They may have things to assist you, but it is only if you want and are ready to hear it and do it that it makes a difference. Lots of the same things were available to you through books, the internet, and friends and family, you just didn't choose to hear or use them. Counselors are not some "magic pill" in fact lots of them can and do cause more damage than good.


----------



## vellocet

2ntnuf said:


> You agree, but did not answer my question. How do you work on the issues in the marriage, if only the WS is to blame for the problems therein?



The WS is to blame for their cheating and his/her choice to gratify themselves with other people. 


The problems in the marriage are another matter. Most of the time its a shared responsibility, more on one spouse than another, sometimes almost even, and sometimes very one sided. Depends on the circumstance.

But when someone is asked why they cheated, almost the first things out of their mouth are all the shortcomings of the BS. And yes, that is the WS trying to push blame to the BS or justify what they did. If not, then they'd have indicated "why" with other words.




> I still don't see how my example blamed the BS for the decision to cheat.


Your kidding right? Its all over. When asked why someone cheated, they give the usual, "my husband did this...." "my wife didn't do that..." etc.

I'd give you specific examples, but then it comes off as attacking that particular WS. So you'll just have to take my word for it or read some more.

"I didn't feel loved" while explaining their decision to cheat. Its there, you have to read it and see it for what it is.


----------



## 2ntnuf

vellocet said:


> The WS is to blame for their cheating and his/her choice to gratify themselves with other people.
> 
> 
> The problems in the marriage are another matter. Most of the time its a shared responsibility, more on one spouse than another, sometimes almost even, and sometimes very one sided. Depends on the circumstance.
> 
> But when someone is asked why they cheated, almost the first things out of their mouth are all the shortcomings of the BS. And yes, that is the WS trying to push blame to the BS or justify what they did. If not, then they'd have indicated "why" with other words.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your kidding right? Its all over. When asked why someone cheated, they give the usual, "my husband did this...." "my wife didn't do that..." etc.
> 
> I'd give you specific examples, but then it comes off as attacking that particular WS. So you'll just have to take my word for it or read some more.
> 
> "I didn't feel loved" while explaining their decision to cheat. Its there, you have to read it and see it for what it is.


No, unfortunately I'm not kidding. I have seen what you mean all over this site. I don't disagree with that, I just think my example is ever so slightly(actually alot) different to those posts. And, I don't know why you can't see that. We'll have to just let it go. I'm with you up to that point.


----------



## EI

vellocet said:


> The WS is to blame for their cheating and his/her choice to gratify themselves with other people.
> 
> 
> The problems in the marriage are another matter. Most of the time its a shared responsibility, more on one spouse than another, sometimes almost even, and sometimes very one sided. Depends on the circumstance.
> 
> But when someone is asked why they cheated, almost the first things out of their mouth are all the shortcomings of the BS. And yes, that is the WS trying to push blame to the BS or justify what they did. If not, then they'd have indicated "why" with other words.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your kidding right? Its all over. When asked why someone cheated, they give the usual, "my husband did this...." "my wife didn't do that..." etc.
> 
> I'd give you specific examples, but then it comes off as attacking that particular WS. So you'll just have to take my word for it or read some more. *Oh, go ahead, you know you want to! *
> 
> "I didn't feel loved" while explaining their decision to cheat. Its there, you have to read it and see it for what it is.


----------



## jim123

vellocet said:


> The WS is to blame for their cheating and his/her choice to gratify themselves with other people.
> 
> 
> The problems in the marriage are another matter. Most of the time its a shared responsibility, more on one spouse than another, sometimes almost even, and sometimes very one sided. Depends on the circumstance.
> 
> But when someone is asked why they cheated, almost the first things out of their mouth are all the shortcomings of the BS. And yes, that is the WS trying to push blame to the BS or justify what they did. If not, then they'd have indicated "why" with other words.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your kidding right? Its all over. When asked why someone cheated, they give the usual, "my husband did this...." "my wife didn't do that..." etc.
> 
> I'd give you specific examples, but then it comes off as attacking that particular WS. So you'll just have to take my word for it or read some more.
> 
> "I didn't feel loved" while explaining their decision to cheat. Its there, you have to read it and see it for what it is.


If you know the answer why do you ask?

If the only answer is they are evil then there is no discussion is there?

Men cheat for simple gratification while women cheat for more deeper reasons.


----------



## 2ntnuf

jim123 said:


> If you know the answer why do you ask?
> 
> If the only answer is they are evil then there is no discussion is there?
> 
> Men cheat for simple gratification while women cheat for more deeper reasons.


I disagree. Maybe when I was younger I might have thought that way, but I can't remember back that far. Dirt was white back then. It hadn't actually gotten dirty yet. 

Some of what stopped a couple of affairs(read women) I reeeeally wanted to pursue was that I thought of my then wife, I could not give up a commitment and what I believed was a monogamous marriage with connection and history for a just a piece with little to no chance of a future.


----------



## jim123

2ntnuf said:


> I disagree. Maybe when I was younger I might have thought that way, but I can't remember back that far. Dirt was white back then. It hadn't actually gotten dirty yet.
> 
> Some of what stopped a couple of affairs(read women) I reeeeally wanted to pursue was that I thought of my then wife, I could not give up a commitment and what I believed was a monogamous marriage with connection and history for a just a piece with little to no chance of a future.


Most men do not cheat and are like you. Men who cheat tend to do it for ego. Most are happy in the M. Women have more internal issues that make the A possible.

We men are more simple creatures.


----------



## Squeakr

jim123 said:


> Most men do not cheat and are like you. Men who cheat tend to do it for ego. Most are happy in the M. Women have more internal issues that make the A possible.
> 
> We men are more simple creatures.


Not buying it. We men are not amoeba. We do things for other reasons than just sexual gratification. Don't feed this line to all like it is the gospel as it is not the case nor the truth. It might be yours but is not for most men. No wonder we get a bad rep when people like you trivialize the entire gender.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Suspecting2014

IMO biology is a great explanation as psychology is as well, the thing is that an explanation is not a justification...

Cheating is a choice not a consequence.

When you are hungry you dont take food from a weaker person, as a dog, or anyother animal, dominated by its nature would do. The same way you can control your other instincts. 

Even a drunken ONS because the cheater must have know better not to drink with some persons, not get waisted, flirt, etc. This is still a choise the same as the beginning of a long term affair, then only difference is that after first time wanting more makes the choice to continue easier.

From other angle, of course the cheater always knew what was doing, thats why they hide it and lie.
Thats why a BS never will get the answer needed to heal to "Why you did it". The real answer all the cases is the same "because I wanted". No magic forces that make someone cheat, no instructions given by E.T., no heavenly commands...But there are extenuating circumstances like, and hunhappy marriage because spouse is an abuser, bipolarity disorder, death of a son, drug addiction, etc. But as long as the cheting spouse is not clinically exempt from his/her behavior this remains being just a explanation. Thats why, for example, cheating in good marriages is harder to fix as there are no extenuating circumstances.

I belive in the case of WR and Chris that what is done is done, now each one of them must accept consecuneces and move on fixing their selfs, WS in therapy and Chirs trying to find his strength in OW bed. Are these the optimum way to deal with their problems, of course not! but for them I belive are the only ones at this moment.

IMO WR and Chris last chance, if there is any, is improve and keep the comunication about thoughts, needs, feeling, etc. The only way to achieve this is humility to accept their own faults and vulnerability to meet each other's emotional needs .


----------



## As'laDain

" what is this feeling? I feel absolutely amazing! On top of the world... I don't remember the last time I felt this good. I feel strong, important, loved. It feels amazing to know that i can make someone smile like that..."

"Why do I feel this way? Because this girl just smiled at me and thanked me so warmly, she was so grateful for the time I spent talking to her. She gave me a really warm hug before she left and told me how she looks forward to seeing me again. She told me that she really enjoys my company and said that I am a really nice person."

"Why did that make me feel that way? Well, i have been missing it. My wife for the last several years won't even let me touch her... she tells me about how lazy I am and how I am not doing enough for her. Whenever I see her, she always finds a reason why she cannot spend any time with me. Sex doesn't happen, it's obvious that she does not want me. And nobody has ever told me that I am a good person... not even my wife. In fact, she usually makes it a point to tell me how much she can't stand being around me. She says I just want sex. I was always labeled the **** up, always the lazy selfish a$$ hole. Nobody ever really told me I was worth anything."

The above is a hypothetical situation. But, it highlights a process that we can use to identify and fully understand our feelings. Each and every one of us has the potential to fall in love with SOMEONE. But after we realize how we are emotionally responding to someone and why, we have a choice to make:

Either tell our spouses how to do the things that make us feel loved and thereby enable them to fix fill the void, or we can pursue the feelings of infatuation with the other person. If it's the latter, an upstanding fellow will at least divorce first, but many dont. 

But let's be honest, very few people spend time thinking about how they feel, what makes them feel, and why the triggers for those feelings are triggers in the first place. If we did, we would realize that we are always going to have needs that are different than others. We would realize that when we our spouses upset us, it may not even be their fault. We would realize that we can get the feeling go that we crave so badly from the one we are with, if they are willing to work with us. 

We could fulfill deep seated and forgotten needs that go all the way back to early childhood, if only we understood ourselves and our spouses. Knowing how we respond emotionally gives us the information we need to develop strategies to effectively and safely fill those needs in ourselves. It may not allow us to affair proof our marriages, but it CAN teach us how to affair proof ourselves.

This is why we need the why. But we need more than just "Why did you do it. We need to know what they were feeling, which is quite painful to hear sometimes. We need to know what made them feel that way, and why it made them feel that way. 


And we need it for reconciliation too. How can we learn to trust unless we can identify the things that make us insecure in our spouses honesty? How can we fall in love with them if we don't know what makes us feel loved and what kills that love? 

Knowing the reasons can be far more than an excuse. It depends on the intentions of the person asking and answering the questions, and since they cannot be determined by others, we have to be able to honestly explain what the truth looks like to us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

As'laDain said:


> " what is this feeling? I feel absolutely amazing! On top of the world... I don't remember the last time I felt this good. I feel strong, important, loved. It feels amazing to know that i can make someone smile like that..."
> 
> "Why do I feel this way? Because this girl just smiled at me and thanked me so warmly, she was so grateful for the time I spent talking to her. She gave me a really warm hug before she left and told me how she looks forward to seeing me again. She told me that she really enjoys my company and said that I am a really nice person."
> 
> "Why did that make me feel that way? Well, i have been missing it. My wife for the last several years won't even let me touch her... she tells me about how lazy I am and how I am not doing enough for her. Whenever I see her, she always finds a reason why she cannot spend any time with me. Sex doesn't happen, it's obvious that she does not want me. And nobody has ever told me that I am a good person... not even my wife. In fact, she usually makes it a point to tell me how much she can't stand being around me. She says I just want sex. I was always labeled the **** up, always the lazy selfish a$$ hole. Nobody ever really told me I was worth anything."
> 
> The above is a hypothetical situation. But, it highlights a process that we can use to identify and fully understand our feelings. Each and every one of us has the potential to fall in love with SOMEONE. But after we realize how we are emotionally responding to someone and why, we have a choice to make:
> 
> Either tell our spouses how to do the things that make us feel loved and thereby enable them to fix fill the void, or we can pursue the feelings of infatuation with the other person. If it's the latter, an upstanding fellow will at least divorce first, but many dont.
> 
> But let's be honest, very few people spend time thinking about how they feel, what makes them feel, and why the triggers for those feelings are triggers in the first place. If we did, we would realize that we are always going to have needs that are different than others. We would realize that when we our spouses upset us, it may not even be their fault. We would realize that we can get the feeling go that we crave so badly from the one we are with, if they are willing to work with us.
> 
> We could fulfill deep seated and forgotten needs that go all the way back to early childhood, if only we understood ourselves and our spouses. Knowing how we respond emotionally gives us the information we need to develop strategies to effectively and safely fill those needs in ourselves. It may not allow us to affair proof our marriages, but it CAN teach us how to affair proof ourselves.
> 
> This is why we need the why. But we need more than just "Why did you do it. We need to know what they were feeling, which is quite painful to hear sometimes. We need to know what made them feel that way, and why it made them feel that way.
> 
> 
> And we need it for reconciliation too. How can we learn to trust unless we can identify the things that make us insecure in our spouses honesty? How can we fall in love with them if we don't know what makes us feel loved and what kills that love?
> 
> Knowing the reasons can be far more than an excuse. It depends on the intentions of the person 3asking and answering the questions, and since they cannot be determined by others, we have to be able to honestly explain what the truth looks like to us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That scenario was so close to my then situation that it actually triggered me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## As'laDain

MattMatt said:


> That scenario was so close to my then situation that it actually triggered me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry man, didn't mean to trigger you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

MattMatt said:


> Your counsellor seems to be helping you on the way to become the person you should be.
> 
> By the way... Are you going to make the pasties with the meat at one end and the jam or apple sauce at the other?


What!!! Now I know pasty talk is fighting talk in Cornwall but jam or apple sauce. I have never heard of such an unholy amalgamation in my life and certainly not in this neck of the woods. No I was seduced by the thought of corned beef hash type filling and it was good, they all enjoyed them and asked for them again. I don't really like those meat and swede things. I can see this may start a pasty war and I apologise to anyone in advance that likes to put all manner of fruit or what have you in a pasty but I'm sure there is a site out there for everyone who loves pasties to compare fillings and pastry etc.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

MattMatt said:


> Because by identifying why someone does something can help them use a variety of methods to ensure they do not do it in the future.


That's what I feel. I didn't realise I was like my dad and I never admitted just how bad my dad was because I loved him. Through talking to my brother who is 62 and seeing him cry about how my dad was with him and my mum I just realised I'd picked it up from him. Then I started to remember how when I'd done really well with things my dad never once said well done and even pulled it apart and said how I could do better. He used to say how everyone else did it better and how useless I was. I'd not ever thought about this and just put it down to being a perfectionist and wanting the best but when I look at it and the other stuff that was constantly not right I can trace my behaviour with Chris and the girls to some extent right back to that. It has shocked me and I'm having to rethink my relationship with my dad as well. This is why I haven't been on the forum as much because I feel burnt out. I'm not blaming all this on my dad and obviously I'm an adult and have to take responsibility for my own actions but I didn't think I was like my dad until it hit me talking to my brother. What I can do is use this knowledge to change. I can stop myself doing things I used to and catch myself doing things I don't like now and steadily I can stop this myself. It does feel like a weight lifted and as long as I want to eradicate it and I do then it's done me a lot of good as that's where it starts.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

NoChoice said:


> All of the excuses for cheating are just that, excuses. The reason for cheating is the WS's inability to make the right decision.


I agree, what I have said about my relationship with dad has just helped me understand some behaviour I had and have to try to not repeat. It is nothing to do with my affair but I was a horrible person because of this behaviour before the affair. I can't change what happened but I can not repeat it.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Suspecting2014 said:


> IMO biology is a great explanation as psychology is as well, the thing is that an explanation is not a justification...
> 
> Cheating is a choice not a consequence.
> 
> When you are hungry you dont take food from a weaker person, as a dog, or anyother animal, dominated by its nature would do. The same way you can control your other instincts.
> 
> Even a drunken ONS because the cheater must have know better not to drink with some persons, not get waisted, flirt, etc. This is still a choise the same as the beginning of a long term affair, then only difference is that after first time wanting more makes the choice to continue easier.
> 
> From other angle, of course the cheater always knew what was doing, thats why they hide it and lie.
> Thats why a BS never will get the answer needed to heal to "Why you did it". The real answer all the cases is the same "because I wanted". No magic forces that make someone cheat, no instructions given by E.T., no heavenly commands...But there are extenuating circumstances like, and hunhappy marriage because spouse is an abuser, bipolarity disorder, death of a son, drug addiction, etc. But as long as the cheting spouse is not clinically exempt from his/her behavior this remains being just a explanation. Thats why, for example, cheating in good marriages is harder to fix as there are no extenuating circumstances.
> 
> I belive in the case of WR and Chris that what is done is done, now each one of them must accept consecuneces and move on fixing their selfs, WS in therapy and Chirs trying to find his strength in OW bed. Are these the optimum way to deal with their problems, of course not! but for them I belive are the only ones at this moment.
> 
> IMO WR and Chris last chance, if there is any, is improve and keep the comunication about thoughts, needs, feeling, etc. The only way to achieve this is humility to accept their own faults and vulnerability to meet each other's emotional needs .


We are communicating lots to each other, he is downstairs now with the kids. I am doing everything I can to be better. He loves me still I know that and obviously I still want him back so much. He keeps saying he wants to come back but would lie next to me thinking when is this going to stop, me doing what he wants I mean. He says he doesn't think I'd cheat again and that I'm showing remorse and am sorry so I've made some progress there but he seems to think he needs longer away but although he has now told OW four times they should just be friends remains with her because he says he may as well. I can hardly judge for this given what I did and can't blame him but I just get the idea he is drifting away. You all know how life standing still seems but it's an awful time waiting for him to see if he can come back. His therapy seems to help him but I'm at a loss now as to what I should do. It's probably just a case of being civil, looking after the kids and that space he needs. He hasn't completely gone and said never coming back but how is he feeling, any suggestions.


----------



## G.J.

White Rose said:


> looking after the kids and that space he needs. .


As long as he's not sleeping with the other women since coming to this conclusion let him carry on and get the assurance you have changed *permanently*
You have to invest in hope and faith now


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Cheating is usually a symptom of an underlying issue. You need to understand yourself, so you can make the necessary modifications to your behavior so the probability of it diminishes. We all have flaws that causes us to make irrational decisions. Like if an alcoholic attacks their spouse, the issues would be the alcohol making them do irrational things. It would not be an excuse, but the alcoholic can seek help to find ways of modifying that behavior. We all have done something we feel guilty about, and it is due to our flaws.

Just like you can say, Chris's underlying issues are his hurt, pain, and need for validation. So he seek another woman for those things. If he worked on those issues before he started a relationship,he likely would not have a gf at this time. He also may have divorce White rose and moved on.

White rose needs to gain understanding, and the self-awareness to help her lower the probability of her destructive behavior. She needs to move on with her life, and learn to be happy as herself. I would say to detach from Chris, and just focus on White rose, because White rose needs to put herself as a priority to be a more healthy individual.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By White Rose
> His therapy seems to help him but I'm at a loss now as to what I should do


*You should prove your change of life, mind, and remorse by living a life of integrity for the rest of your life.* You should be spending all your time finding ways to live a life of integrity and stop trying to get Chris to come back to you. A needy and desperate woman is not that attractive but one that has proven herself to have integrity for many years is very attractive.




> He hasn't completely gone and said never coming back but how is he feeling, any suggestions.


You ask us how Chris is feeling. That tells me that Chris does not want to communicate with you very much; at least not about that issue. As a man I will tell you how I would feel. I would not open up my life and emotions to you because you have bloodied my emotions and self-esteem so badly that I would not chance you destroying me. . I would only consider maybe having a committed relationship with you AFTER you have proved yourself as a woman of integrity for SEVERAL YEARS! If I found a woman that has integrity and has not been a cheater then I would not take a chance with you even if you did change. I would want to protect myself as much as possible.


I do not know how Chris feels but I think that you both have done some very serious damage to your relationship and your chances of putting the relationship back together so that it is deep, solid, and with strong trust are slim to none. IMO

You can put the relationship back together but it will have cracks and be vulnerable to lots of trouble.

I am not trying to kill your hope I am trying to be honest and tell you the reality that I see. White Rose, you can get a lot better and maybe have a good relationship with a man in the future it is just that with Chris here is a lot of baggage that runs very deep and the chances of success are very low.

*White Rose needs only to consentrate on building herself up and healing and her children.*


----------



## As'laDain

WR, have you done something good for someone lately? If not, find a way to help someone. Not chris, preferably someone you don't know all that well. Find a way to get out into the community and help people. It will do you a lot of good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## carmen ohio

White Rose said:


> Suspecting2014 said:
> 
> 
> 
> IMO biology is a great explanation as psychology is as well, the thing is that an explanation is not a justification...
> 
> *Cheating is a choice not a consequence.*
> 
> When you are hungry you dont take food from a weaker person, as a dog, or anyother animal, dominated by its nature would do. The same way you can control your other instincts.
> 
> Even a drunken ONS because the cheater must have know better not to drink with some persons, not get waisted, flirt, etc. This is still a choise the same as the beginning of a long term affair, then only difference is that after first time wanting more makes the choice to continue easier.
> 
> From other angle, of course the cheater always knew what was doing, thats why they hide it and lie.
> *Thats why a BS never will get the answer needed to heal to "Why you did it". The real answer all the cases is the same "because I wanted".* No magic forces that make someone cheat, no instructions given by E.T., no heavenly commands...But there are extenuating circumstances like, and hunhappy marriage because spouse is an abuser, bipolarity disorder, death of a son, drug addiction, etc. But as long as the cheting spouse is not clinically exempt from his/her behavior this remains being just a explanation. Thats why, for example, cheating in good marriages is harder to fix as there are no extenuating circumstances.
> 
> I belive in the case of WR and Chris that what is done is done, now each one of them must accept consecuneces and move on fixing their selfs, WS in therapy and Chirs trying to find his strength in OW bed. Are these the optimum way to deal with their problems, of course not! but for them I belive are the only ones at this moment.
> 
> IMO WR and Chris last chance, if there is any, is improve and keep the comunication about thoughts, needs, feeling, etc. The only way to achieve this is humility to accept their own faults and vulnerability to meet each other's emotional needs .
> 
> 
> 
> We are communicating lots to each other, he is downstairs now with the kids. I am doing everything I can to be better. He loves me still I know that and obviously *I still want him back so much.* He keeps saying he wants to come back but would lie next to me thinking when is this going to stop, me doing what he wants I mean. He says he doesn't think I'd cheat again and that I'm showing remorse and am sorry so I've made some progress there but he seems to think he needs longer away but although *he has now told OW four times they should just be friends remains with her because he says he may as well. I can hardly judge for this given what I did and can't blame him* but I just get the idea he is drifting away. You all know how life standing still seems but it's an awful time waiting for him to see if he can come back. His therapy seems to help him but *I'm at a loss now as to what I should do.* It's probably just a case of being civil, looking after the kids and that space he needs. He hasn't completely gone and said never coming back but how is he feeling, any suggestions.
Click to expand...

White Rose,

The point Suspecting2014 makes is critical for you (and everybody affected by adultery, either as the wayward or the betrayed) to understand: people cheat because they want to. Is it as simple as that? Well, not quite because, since cheating is almost universally condemned as immoral and usually has serious consequences, we also have to account for how cheaters deal with the risk of being found out. Thus, a more complete explanation would be:

_People cheat because they want to and because, even though they know it is wrong, they either (1) don't expect to be caught, (2) don't care if they are caught or, in some cases, (3) even want to be caught._

I believe you have admitted to situations (1) and (2) above as applying to you -- you thought you would get away with it or, if not, that Chris would forgive you. In Chris's case, (2) or (3) is likely applicable (and perhaps both). All the other _'reasons'_ that you or Chris or anyone else might offer are, as Suspecting2014 indicates, nothing more than excuses.

Now, since you cheated on Chris but want him back, you suppose that there is nothing you can do about his adultery. Well, in that you are wrong. Under the time-proven adage, _'two wrongs don't make a right,'_ you have just as much reason to hold Chris to account for his cheating as he does for yours. More importantly, the solution to on-going adultery -- to sever ties with the adulterer unless and until he or she stops cheating-- is just as necessary to end a revenge affair as it is to end the first cheater's affair. And don't kid yourself, although he may be loathe to admit it, what Chris is doing is an act of revenge for what you did to him.

Until you give Chris a reason to stop cheating, although you can rightly condemn him, you can hardly expect him to stop. If you really want to know whether you and Chris have a future together, you need to force him to choose between you and the OW. You say you feel Chris is slipping away. Well, what do you expect? By putting up with his cheating and enabling him to avoid acknowledging his share of the responsibility for destroying his family, you are facilitating his double life/cake-eating and giving him no reason to seriously consider coming back to you.

Remind him that you are prepared to do whatever he reasonably asks of you to help him deal with your unfaithfulness, but tell him that, despite what you did, you are a human being worthy of respect and what he is doing is disrespectful of you as wells as of his family. Start detaching from him (the so-called, 180) and insist that, if he wants to see his children, he see them somewhere other than in your house. In other words, treat him like the cheater that he is and then wait and see if, after a period of time, he ends his affair. If not, file for divorce and, if that doesn't cause him to stop cheating, accept the fact that your marriage is over and then do what is best for your children.

Only by forcing Chris to make a choice will you learn if the two of you have a future together. The sooner you start, the sooner will you have your answer. The longer you wait, the less the chance that the answer will be the one you want.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Carmen in Ohio
> Only by forcing Chris to make a choice will you learn *if the two of you have a future together*. The sooner you start, the sooner will you have your answer? The longer you wait, the less the chance that the answer will be the one you wants.



Carmen you make a lot of sense in most of your posts and maybe your recent is no exception.* However, do you really think that WR and Chris have a chance at a marriage that is deep, solid, and with strong trust?* In this case it seems that too much damaged has occurred to have a rich relationship. I know that some terrible relationships have been patched up but do you think that because both have torn up each other’s trust and integrity so badly that they can still have a good relationship?

I would think that WR would be wasting her time trying to resurrect the dead that is why I said in my previous post “White Rose needs only to concentrate on building herself up and healing and her children.”



> *BY WR*
> Then I started to remember how when I'd done really well with things my dad never once said well done and even pulled it apart and said how I could do better. He used to say how everyone else did it better and *how useless I was*


.

On top of the whole story about WR and Chris, WR has stated that she has some real baggage that goes back to her childhood when her dad use to tell her how useless she is. Now that is really sad and not WR’s fault but that is another real detriment to making a successful marriage.* With that kind of baggage and with both of them being cheaters would you want to try and make a good marriage out of that wreckage?*

I suppose there is always hope that a relationship can be put back together but what are the chances for WR and Chris? About the same as winning the lottery? I just think that WR will get false hope by thinking she can get back and have a successful marriage with Chris. In addition, *don’t you think that WR will be wasting years trying to make it work when she desperately needs to send her time and energy on herself and her children?*

I know that my opinion comes from being a BS but a WS (EI) has said that WR should let him go and let him build another life. I also think she said that this marriage is over. A LOT of posters agreed with EI and so do I.

I think that if WR chases this desire for her and Chris for years she will wind up in worse shape than she is now. Wouldn’t she be much better off building herself up and her children? That has about a 90% chance of success whereas she and Chris are have about a 1-10% chance IMO.


----------



## Chris989

My current situation is not a revenge affair. It is also.quite different from WR's "affair" because I am not lying to her and I have left home.

I won't comment on the rest except to say WR is, of course, free to act as she sees fit but I would not end a relationship if WR ceased contact. In fact, this would be a darn good reason *not* to end it!


----------



## MattMatt

White Rose said:


> That's what I feel. I didn't realise I was like my dad and I never admitted just how bad my dad was because I loved him. Through talking to my brother who is 62 and seeing him cry about how my dad was with him and my mum I just realised I'd picked it up from him. Then I started to remember how when I'd done really well with things my dad never once said well done and even pulled it apart and said how I could do better. He used to say how everyone else did it better and how useless I was. I'd not ever thought about this and just put it down to being a perfectionist and wanting the best but when I look at it and the other stuff that was constantly not right I can trace my behaviour with Chris and the girls to some extent right back to that. It has shocked me and I'm having to rethink my relationship with my dad as well. This is why I haven't been on the forum as much because I feel burnt out. I'm not blaming all this on my dad and obviously I'm an adult and have to take responsibility for my own actions but I didn't think I was like my dad until it hit me talking to my brother. What I can do is use this knowledge to change. I can stop myself doing things I used to and catch myself doing things I don't like now and steadily I can stop this myself. It does feel like a weight lifted and as long as I want to eradicate it and I do then it's done me a lot of good as that's where it starts.


This is why God invented counsellors. 

And Yorkshire Tea.


----------



## MattMatt

Chris989 said:


> My current situation is not a revenge affair. It is also.quite different from WR's "affair" because I am not lying to her and I have left home.
> 
> I won't comment on the rest except to say WR is, of course, free to act as she sees fit but I would not end a relationship if WR ceased contact. In fact, this would be a darn good reason *not* to end it!


I wasn't having a revenge affair. Until I came to TAM and realised that was actually what I really *had* done.

Though I appreciate our situations are vastly different. 

I just wish the best outcome for everyone involved.

Mind you, my ancestors *are* from Bolton, so that might explain a great deal!:rofl:


----------



## 2ntnuf

MattMatt said:


> This is why God invented counsellors.
> 
> And Yorkshire Tea.


http://youtu.be/Xe1a1wHxTyo

 

Thought this thread could use a bit of comedy.


----------



## MattMatt

2ntnuf said:


> http://youtu.be/Xe1a1wHxTyo
> 
> 
> 
> Thought this thread could use a bit of comedy.


That's not comedy! It's a documentary about life in England!

Though one of the team, Michael Palin, is a real Yorkshire man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 343612534

White Rose said:


> What a waste for two people that still love each other very much.


I doubt he still loves you, maybe who he thought you were but not you.


----------



## carmen ohio

Mr Blunt said:


> Carmen . . . *do you really think that WR and Chris have a chance at a marriage that is deep, solid, and with strong trust?* . . .
> 
> *With that kind of baggage and with both of them being cheaters would you want to try and make a good marriage out of that wreckage?*
> 
> . . . *don’t you think that WR will be wasting years trying to make it work when she desperately needs to send her time and energy on herself and her children?*
> 
> . . . Wouldn’t she be much better off building herself up and her children? . . .


Why ask me these things? It is up to White Rose to decide what she wants to do and it is up to the two of them to decide whether they have a future or not. All I know is that, as long as Chris continues to cheat on White Rose, they have none.


----------



## carmen ohio

Chris989 said:


> *My current situation is not a revenge affair.* It is also.quite different from WR's "affair" because I am not lying to her and I have left home.
> 
> I won't comment on the rest except to say WR is, of course, free to act as she sees fit but *I would not end a relationship if WR ceased contact. In fact, this would be a darn good reason *not* to end it!*


Well, whether it's a revenge affair or not, you certainly can't claim the moral high ground after threatening White Rose like that.

Get a grip, Chris. It's not only your wife that your cheating on.


----------



## jim123

Mr Blunt said:


> Carmen you make a lot of sense in most of your posts and maybe your recent is no exception.* However, do you really think that WR and Chris have a chance at a marriage that is deep, solid, and with strong trust?* In this case it seems that too much damaged has occurred to have a rich relationship. I know that some terrible relationships have been patched up but do you think that because both have torn up each other’s trust and integrity so badly that they can still have a good relationship?
> 
> I would think that WR would be wasting her time trying to resurrect the dead that is why I said in my previous post “White Rose needs only to concentrate on building herself up and healing and her children.”
> 
> .
> 
> On top of the whole story about WR and Chris, WR has stated that she has some real baggage that goes back to her childhood when her dad use to tell her how useless she is. Now that is really sad and not WR’s fault but that is another real detriment to making a successful marriage.* With that kind of baggage and with both of them being cheaters would you want to try and make a good marriage out of that wreckage?*
> 
> I suppose there is always hope that a relationship can be put back together but what are the chances for WR and Chris? About the same as winning the lottery? I just think that WR will get false hope by thinking she can get back and have a successful marriage with Chris. In addition, *don’t you think that WR will be wasting years trying to make it work when she desperately needs to send her time and energy on herself and her children?*
> 
> I know that my opinion comes from being a BS but a WS (EI) has said that WR should let him go and let him build another life. I also think she said that this marriage is over. A LOT of posters agreed with EI and so do I.
> 
> I think that if WR chases this desire for her and Chris for years she will wind up in worse shape than she is now. Wouldn’t she be much better off building herself up and her children? That has about a 90% chance of success whereas she and Chris are have about a 1-10% chance IMO.


I agree. They each need to work on themselves before they even think of an R


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> Carmen . . . do you really think that WR and Chris have a chance at a marriage that is deep, solid, and with strong trust? . . .
> 
> With that kind of baggage and with both of them being cheaters would you want to try and make a good marriage out of that wreckage?
> 
> . . . don’t you think that WR will be wasting years trying to make it work when she desperately needs to send her time and energy on herself and her children?
> 
> . . . Wouldn’t she be much better off building herself up and her children? . . .



*By Carmen*
Why ask me these things?[/QUOTE]



Because you are the one that may have indicated that they may have a future together (see your quote below). WR is looking for advice and I think that you are usually very good at your advice and I was surprised at your post below. Did I read it wrong?



> By Carmen in Ohio
> Only by forcing Chris to make a choice will* you learn if the two of you have a future together.*


----------



## Chris989

carmen ohio said:


> Well, whether it's a revenge affair or not, you certainly can't claim the moral high ground after threatening White Rose like that.
> 
> Get a grip, Chris. It's not only your wife that your cheating on.


What I said isn't a threat. Somebody has given what I think is poor advice to WR. 

If I stand by and allow that advice to remain without my input (how many people in WR's situation have the advantage of their partner actively posting with advice on their own thread?) then that would be wrong of me.

Morals are nothing to do with what is going on here, either; this isn't a battle of who did what to whom first, or which partner is "best" - it's a real life, very painful, confusing, distressing, situation where both people are very, very hurt. 

To talk about morals here is to miss the point. It suggests that somebody can "win" this situation and, so far, everybody involved has lost.


----------



## seasalt

Chris,

You talk about winning in a situation that has been a scene of devastation much like that of a nuclear war. You chose to hang in after your wife's rejection of you as a person by staying with her after divorce. You chose to re-marry her despite her lack of remorse and demonstrable affection. You now want to divorce her again and have found someone else to be with. It's like you keep snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Living a rewarding, satisfying life is the best definition of winning after an infidelity in my opinion and you are not giving that life a chance. Your children will be better off if you do, you and whomever you choose to be with will be better off and in the long run the White Rose will be better for it too.

Just sayin',

Seasalt


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mutual self and other destruction 

Its why I believe the ten commandments were God telling us to not be destructive through selfish acts because... its destructive. Each individual can choose to stop being destructive. 

You both individually can wake up in the mornings and say to yourself what can I do today that is constructive for my family instead of destructive to it. How can I serve my wife/husband/children. 

I love it that you guys are talking a lot. That's intimacy. It's how things get done. Accept, understand, forgive, love well and forsake others. I know its a long shot, ONLY if you choose to make it one.


----------



## carmen ohio

Mr Blunt said:


> *By Carmen*
> Why ask me these things?




Because you are the one that may have indicated that they may have a future together (see your quote below). WR is looking for advice and I think that you are usually very good at your advice and I was surprised at your post below. Did I read it wrong?

[/B][/QUOTE]

I think I already answered your question, Mr. Blunt, but let me try it again in a different way.

In affairs of the human heart, one never knows what is or is not possible. Enemies become friends, people who hate each other become lovers, even cold warrior Ronald Reagan and commie Mikhail Gorbachev became best buddies. So who is to say that WR and Chris can't make it. All I know for certain is that they have no future together as long as they continue to cheat on one another. Hence my advice to WR to do what she can to end Chris's affair.

Now, if you ask me what I think is the chance of it happening, I would guess rather low. But WR didn't ask for odds, she asked for help in getting her husband back. That's what I tried to give her.

Hope that explains it.


----------



## carmen ohio

Chris989 said:


> What I said isn't a threat. Somebody has given what I think is poor advice to WR.
> 
> If I stand by and allow that advice to remain without my input (how many people in WR's situation have the advantage of their partner actively posting with advice on their own thread?) then that would be wrong of me.
> 
> Morals are nothing to do with what is going on here, either; this isn't a battle of who did what to whom first, or which partner is "best" - it's a real life, very painful, confusing, distressing, situation where both people are very, very hurt.
> 
> To talk about morals here is to miss the point. It suggests that somebody can "win" this situation and, so far, everybody involved has lost.


Maybe my advice was poor but . . .

What you said was clearly a threat and what you are doing is certainly immoral.

Despite your adulterous behavior, Chris, I have nothing against you. Nor am I a fan of White Rose, your formerly adulterous wife. I'm just trying to interject some truth into what I agree is _"very painful, confusing, distressing, situation."_

You can claim that you're doing nothing wrong and, by the looks of it, you've got a lot of sympathizers here. But, based on what I've read in your other posts, I think you're a decent guy and therefore that you know what you are doing is wrong and is hurting your family.

I hope you find happiness, be it with White Rose or not. But I don't think you will until you start being honest with yourself again and return to the straight and narrow.


----------



## ButtPunch

I fear Chris maybe eating a little cake. I think WR needs to divorce and move on with her life. 

I understand the sympathy he gets as he is a BS but it is what it is. Now WR is the BS and needs to be following the 180.

WR made the first marriage a sham but Chris made the second one so. WR you can't stay in limbo forever. 

Best of Luck 
BP


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

As'laDain said:


> WR, have you done something good for someone lately? If not, find a way to help someone. Not chris, preferably someone you don't know all that well. Find a way to get out into the community and help people. It will do you a lot of good.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I help young people all the time in my job, I often help others in the community access services they may need. But I'm paid to do this so I don't suppose it counts.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

ButtPunch said:


> I fear Chris maybe eating a little cake. I think WR needs to divorce and move on with her life.
> 
> I understand the sympathy he gets as he is a BS but it is what it is. Now WR is the BS and needs to be following the 180.
> 
> WR made the first marriage a sham but Chris made the second one so. WR you can't stay in limbo forever.
> 
> Best of Luck
> BP


I'm not going anywhere, I don't want a relationship with anyone else and me and my husband are seperated but talking an awful lot and getting on well. Chris believes I am remorseful for what I did and that I will never cheat again. I have no desire to divorce as I will never want to remarry anyone. I can't be doing with this he's as bad as you stuff. It is what it is, i'd like to be back with him and I know Chris is trying to understand if he can come back. I think the OW is comfort as we are seperated and I know Chris regrets how he did it but had to at the time. I'm not going into this and am grateful for any advise. However I am not giving ultimatums to him and he will know what he wants soon enough.


----------



## MattMatt

White Rose said:


> I help young people all the time in my job, I often help others in the community access services they may need. But I'm paid to do this so I don't suppose it counts.


A Saturday morning in a charity shop, maybe even just two or three times a month?


----------



## Augusto

White Rose said:


> I have no plan to get Chris back at this stage, after he slept with me and CHEATING on his new GF who started sleeping with him before he was out of my house and still married he told me he slept with another woman 4 times when we first got divorced (but were still trying to work things out. He told me this via text after he slept with me which according to him he did not see as cheating and is still with that girl. So no I have no desire to get Chris back. I am working on myself and how to move forward, I am going to look at why I couldn't do what Chris wanted, tell me is it normal to call yourself a ***** and **** because you've had an affair or would that perhaps make someone not very keen on being intimate. I have found a wonderful therapist and have had a lot of useful advice here and will as above be working on me for me. Chris has made it clear he does not want to be with me anymore and for the first time in ages I am ok with this. I have a plan and have stopped beating myself up because I had an affair, it was a long time ago, I have forgiven myself and so have my two girls. I regret what I did and losing Chris and am truly remorseful. I am continuing with therapy and the forum as it has been really great and thanks to all who wrote constructive comments and critisism and hence got a reply, to the rest, enough said!



So I am just curious what has changed in the last month from not wanting him back to wanting to work on the marriage?


----------



## MattMatt

White Rose said:


> I'm not going anywhere, I don't want a relationship with anyone else and me and my husband are seperated but talking an awful lot and getting on well. Chris believes I am remorseful for what I did and that I will never cheat again. I have no desire to divorce as I will never want to remarry anyone. I can't be doing with this he's as bad as you stuff. It is what it is, i'd like to be back with him and I know Chris is trying to understand if he can come back. I think the OW is comfort as we are seperated and I know Chris regrets how he did it but had to at the time. I'm not going into this and am grateful for any advise. However I am not giving ultimatums to him and he will know what he wants soon enough.


Several of things you could try:-

1) Wait. Just wait.
2) Charity work in a shop. Oxfam, PDSA, etc.
3) Change your job, if that would be of help to you or Chris? (txt him and ask him about that.)


----------



## ButtPunch

White Rose said:


> I'm not going anywhere, I don't want a relationship with anyone else and me and my husband are seperated but talking an awful lot and getting on well. Chris believes I am remorseful for what I did and that I will never cheat again. I have no desire to divorce as I will never want to remarry anyone. I can't be doing with this he's as bad as you stuff. It is what it is, i'd like to be back with him and I know Chris is trying to understand if he can come back. I think the OW is comfort as we are seperated and I know Chris regrets how he did it but had to at the time. I'm not going into this and am grateful for any advise. However I am not giving ultimatums to him and he will know what he wants soon enough.


 I didn't say give him an ultimatum, I said move on with your life. If he comes back....great! But right now, he is acting like any other WS who is cake eating.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Augusto said:


> So I am just curious what has changed in the last month from not wanting him back to wanting to work on the marriage?


Time and thinking there is a chance. It's a rollercoaster of emotions isn't it. I sound off sometimes before I think. I know I've done this in texts to Chris recently. I got more angry at first about it all and hurt. I didn't at that time understand what I do, I have made rapid progress in finding out about myself and to my credit I think I've worked hard which I should have done before this all happened. From that thread I think we'd probably had an argument as he is more hopeful now but not certain of a good outcome. Each week that goes by we get closer. I will be heartbroken but I'm sure we shall still be friends. Sometimes you can't be friends to move on I know but we have children. I don't think it will be long. I have some stuff still to get to the bottom of which will help him but I think it's all positive at the moment. The OW is a red herring, I'm jealous of the relationship and hurt but I just can't get angry about it after what I did. Everyone is telling me it is worse because we remarried but I don't see that and they don't know the extent of what I did. I will not feel the need to go on about it if we get back together as I think it's rebound. Time has changed things I suppose so in another month who knows, I don't. I think things are at a crucial stage with a few things happening that may change how we both feel so its time, time and time.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

MattMatt said:


> Several of things you could try:-
> 
> 1) Wait. Just wait.
> 2) Charity work in a shop. Oxfam, PDSA, etc.
> 3) Change your job, if that would be of help to you or Chris? (txt him and ask him about that.)


I've offered to change my job to be around in the evening more because he said he has felt like a single dad for years.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

ButtPunch said:


> I didn't say give him an ultimatum, I said move on with your life. If he comes back....great! But right now, he is acting like any other WS who is cake eating.


I am moving on, I am sorting myself out on my own, joining clubs and starting in my greenhouse which a month ago didn't think I would. I've changed my hours at work and will probably change them back again soon as the children are doing ok I think now. Chris will be getting his own place very soon and I think that may change things.


----------



## ButtPunch

White Rose said:


> I am moving on, I am sorting myself out on my own, joining clubs and starting in my greenhouse which a month ago didn't think I would. I've changed my hours at work and will probably change them back again soon as the children are doing ok I think now. Chris will be getting his own place very soon and I think that may change things.


Best of Luck

This is a train wreck of a story that has gone on for far too long. Your kids must be suffering. I am sorry that BOTH of you have gone thru so much pain in the last couple of years. This thread should be a manual on the destruction of infidelity.


----------



## Chris989

ButtPunch said:


> Best of Luck
> 
> This is a train wreck of a story that has gone on for far too long. Your kids must be suffering. I am sorry that BOTH of you have gone thru so much pain in the last couple of years. This thread should be a manual on the destruction of infidelity.


This story is depressingly ordinary. The difference is that I've made sure it's posted on here with everything included.

Firstly because it is the best way to get honest advice and secondly because, as you say, it shows what *really* happens.

One of the reasons I caught so much flack when I first posted is because I posted everything - including things that I knew WR had been up to, thoughts and feelings I knew she had, the reasons behind my thinking and things I figured out she'd done.

In many cases - and I've read hundreds of threads on here now - these things are implied or assumed, but not posted. The BS looks the other way, believes the nonsense they are fed by the WS or simply looks the other way.

It's the difference between *knowing* 2 people had sex and *seeing* them do it. The net effect is the same, but your reaction to the 2 things is very, very different (just to be clear I did not see them having sex, I am illustrating a point).

It's a train wreck, it's a mess. People are hurting and being hurt, but it goes on all the time. Everywhere.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I hope you choose to stop adding to the pain by cutting out the other woman 100%. You are still married to white rose regardless of how much damage has been done. The longer you stay with OW, the more damage you are adding to a vast scene of destruction. You were originally gracious to WR, now she is being gracious to you. You did not "have" to make that choice. There were alternatives to your pain and still are. And I say this coming from someone who understands pain great enough to entertain cheating who wishes she had chosen different in the past. I encourage you to seek a different way to handle your pain regardless of a future with WR.


----------



## Observer

Blossom Leigh said:


> I hope you choose to stop adding to the pain by cutting out the other woman 100%. You are still married to white rose regardless of how much damage has been done. The longer you stay with OW, the more damage you are adding to a vast scene of destruction. You were originally gracious to WR, now she is being gracious to you. You did not "have" to make that choice. There were alternatives to your pain and still are. And I say this coming from someone who understands pain great enough to entertain cheating who wishes she had chosen different in the past. I encourage you to seek a different way to handle your pain regardless of a future with WR.


Great post Blossom. At least Chris, time to make a choice don't ya think? You are to good a person to leave this situation in limbo and be with another woman.


----------



## Chris989

Observer said:


> Great post Blossom. At least Chris, time to make a choice don't ya think? You are to good a person to leave this situation in limbo and be with another woman.


I agree in principle with both of you - perhaps for slightly different reasons, but I do agree. I am looking for the strength to do the right thing and my own counselling is helping with this.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

And Chris... I understand it... all sides and I weep for y'all. So broken and trying to find healing. My H and I have been there.. we can be so destructive and we just about killed each other fighting, layering destruction on top of destruction over and over. We have finally found our way. I pray you & White Rose do too regardless of the structure of the relationship. You guys will always be coparenting even if the marriage doesn't survive. Start building that constructive foundation of exhange now by just making the decision to stop the destruction. Support each other just because it's the right thing to do.


----------



## happy as a clam

Observer said:


> Great post Blossom. At least Chris, time to make a choice don't ya think? You are to good a person to leave this situation in limbo and be with another woman.


:iagree:

Limbo is h*ll for everyone.

Either divorce White Rose or recommit to the marriage. And I don't see how you can possibly make a rational decision either way as long as OW is clouding up the picture.


----------



## Chris989

happy as a clam said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Limbo is h*ll for everyone.
> 
> Either divorce White Rose or recommit to the marriage. And I don't see how you can possibly make a rational decision either way as long as OW is clouding up the picture.


Ok thanks for the input; this is WR's thread, however, so please concentrate on her issues (granted, that seems to be me!). I have my own thread linked in my sig but am not actively posting there.


----------



## happy as a clam

Chris989 said:


> Ok thanks for the input; this is WR's thread, however, so please concentrate on her issues (granted, that seems to be me!).


Ok, but I thought you WERE her issue .

Let me rephrase. WR, limbo is h*ll for everyone. Remaining married to Chris while he is involved with another woman is very damaging to you, not to mention damaging and confusing for your kids.

I know you want to give Chris time to heal and make his decision, but I personally believe he is going to have a very hard time doing that with OW in the picture.

I would reconsider all this waiting around.


----------



## GusPolinski

Chris989 said:


> Ok thanks for the input; this is WR's thread, however, so please concentrate on her issues (granted, that seems to be me!). I have my own thread linked in my sig but am not actively posting there.


Fair enough.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

happy as a clam said:


> Ok, but I thought you WERE her issue .
> 
> Let me rephrase. WR, limbo is h*ll for everyone. Remaining married to Chris while he is involved with another woman is very damaging to you, not to mention damaging and confusing for your kids.
> 
> I know you want to give Chris time to heal and make his decision, but I personally believe he is going to have a very hard time doing that with OW in the picture.
> 
> I would reconsider all this waiting around.


I think time is doing good things for us, this morning we had a very frank discussion, we have talked a lot and I am ok with what I am doing. OW is starting to hurt more but less, I can't explain that and I do see an end to this one way or another soon. The issue really isn't her because I really do think she's just comfort to a man that isn't with me anymore but will be if he can sort out some issues about his feelings around what I did and didn't do. The point of his counseling is to sort his own issues out if he can. I may lose him for good but he is trying hard to sort out what he can and would love nothing more than being home with his children, his chickens, his pond and a woman he can get on with and love. (I may even rise up that order of preference in time if he does .) I think we are trying hard, both of us, I think he is taking on board what is said here on the forum but is really mixed up and just needs time. He has moved his thinking in my direction on a couple of issues in a short space of time and is looking more comfortable too. This is good news, doesn't mean he's packing his bag as we speak but is positive. I'm here to help him how I can, give space, look after the children and see what happens. I don't see a need to rush to the D court. I am moving on in a lot of ways and there will come a time when if this doesn't resolve then we both move on. We are not daft enough to think this can go on forever but that is not yet. Counseling is helping. I suppose I am waiting around for something to happen. I know my limit and so does Chris and this will sort out.


----------



## GusPolinski

White Rose said:


> I think time is doing good things for us, this morning we had a very frank discussion, we have talked a lot and I am ok with what I am doing. OW is starting to hurt more but less, I can't explain that and I do see an end to this one way or another soon. The issue really isn't her because I really do think she's just comfort to a man that isn't with me anymore but will be if he can sort out some issues about his feelings around what I did and didn't do. The point of his counseling is to sort his own issues out if he can. I may lose him for good but *he is trying hard to sort out what he can and would love nothing more than being home with his children, his chickens, his pond and a woman he can get on with and love. (I may even rise up that order of preference in time if he does .)* I think we are trying hard, both of us, I think he is taking on board what is said here on the forum but is really mixed up and just needs time. He has moved his thinking in my direction on a couple of issues in a short space of time and is looking more comfortable too. This is good news, doesn't mean he's packing his bag as we speak but is positive. I'm here to help him how I can, give space, look after the children and see what happens. I don't see a need to rush to the D court. I am moving on in a lot of ways and there will come a time when if this doesn't resolve then we both move on. We are not daft enough to think this can go on forever but that is not yet. Counseling is helping. I suppose I am waiting around for something to happen. I know my limit and so does Chris and this will sort out.


I don't say this to be cruel, but you should start preparing yourself for the notion that -- at some point -- Chris will no longer see _you_ as that woman.

Hell, he may be there already.


----------



## Jellybeans

Is there a way to hide threads?


----------



## happy as a clam

Jellybeans said:


> Is there a way to hide threads?


JB... I ALREADY answered this question in your other thread...










:rofl: :lol: :rofl:


----------



## G.J.

White Rose said:


> I'm here to help him how I can, give space, look after the children and see what happens.
> 
> *I should jolly well hope that's the case*
> 
> I don't see a need to rush to the D court.
> 
> *Hopefully you mean Chris doing that and you not wanting it*
> 
> I am moving on in a lot of ways and there will come a time when if this doesn't resolve then we both move on. We are not daft enough to think this can go on forever but that is not yet.
> 
> *As long as it takes as Chris was abused in his marriage for years and the mental scars will never fully go only diminish*
> 
> Counseling is helping. I suppose I am waiting around for something to happen.
> 
> *Your waiting for as long as it takes Chris to get back on an even keel and can make a decision on his marriage*
> 
> I know my limit
> 
> *What is your limit ???????????????*
> 
> and so does Chris and this will sort out.


----------



## MattMatt

Chris989 said:


> This story is depressingly ordinary. The difference is that I've made sure it's posted on here with everything included.
> 
> Firstly because it is the best way to get honest advice and secondly because, as you say, it shows what *really* happens.
> 
> One of the reasons I caught so much flack when I first posted is because I posted everything - including things that I knew WR had been up to, thoughts and feelings I knew she had, the reasons behind my thinking and things I figured out she'd done.
> 
> In many cases - and I've read hundreds of threads on here now - these things are implied or assumed, but not posted. The BS looks the other way, believes the nonsense they are fed by the WS or simply looks the other way.
> 
> It's the difference between *knowing* 2 people had sex and *seeing* them do it. The net effect is the same, but your reaction to the 2 things is very, very different (just to be clear I did not see them having sex, I am illustrating a point).
> 
> It's a train wreck, it's a mess. People are hurting and being hurt, but it goes on all the time. Everywhere.


Now, here's an off the wall idea. Help WR in the greenhouse. Plant some seeds, nurture them together, see how that works out.


----------



## Augusto

Chris989 said:


> This story is depressingly ordinary. The difference is that I've made sure it's posted on here with everything included.
> 
> Firstly because it is the best way to get honest advice and secondly because, as you say, it shows what *really* happens.
> 
> One of the reasons I caught so much flack when I first posted is because I posted everything - including things that I knew WR had been up to, thoughts and feelings I knew she had, the reasons behind my thinking and things I figured out she'd done.
> 
> In many cases - and I've read hundreds of threads on here now - these things are implied or assumed, but not posted. The BS looks the other way, believes the nonsense they are fed by the WS or simply looks the other way.
> 
> It's the difference between *knowing* 2 people had sex and *seeing* them do it. The net effect is the same, but your reaction to the 2 things is very, very different (just to be clear I did not see them having sex, I am illustrating a point).
> 
> It's a train wreck, it's a mess. People are hurting and being hurt, but it goes on all the time. Everywhere.


Chris,

If I can make it so can you. My wife wanted me fvcking dead. D.....E.....A.....D!!!!! Just so she can be free from me to be with him without any consequences. But what I had to consider was not only my children, but my actual growing older with my wife. Could it still be possible is what I was thinking. Is it over?? If she could show true remorse and a desire to have a future with me, then the reconciling of our marriage was clear. Two things....I loved her and didn't want to love another. I realized that hurt and anger could point me to someone else but it would be from false emotions and would be nothing more than an affair. So I didn't even think about another woman. The other thing was as long as I could still see myself growing old with her is all I needed. But that was only after she told me how she truly felt. Because I told her that we should not waste any of the others time if there was even a smidg of lying involved somewhere. I believe you are gambling away something you could very well regret later on. You could be unhappy at age 70 and regret everyday if you split from WR. Now I am not saying you can be 70 and regret everyday that you did not split from her but if she shows remorse, it wipes away the hurt along the way and knowing that really creates doubt in that kind of outcome. Not to mention she will remember it all through the rest of your lives and you will take comfort knowing it won't happen again because of that fact. The sad part is you won't know any of this until WR has moved on with someone else to regain her happiness and by then its too late. I believe she is really finding a lot about herself and if you are prepared to lose the "better and new her", then you must prepare to lose her later to someone else. Do not lose her to teach her a lesson. She already has learned her own lesson and it will be for the better for someone else if not you. NOW....if your affair with your partner right now is not working or has stalled because you are not sure on what to do, its time to cut it off as you are doing the same thing as your wife did but are justifying yourself with the affair she had for a free pass. Just call it what it is as an affair and forget it. Plus any woman who is involved with any still married man no matter the current status whether separated or not yet divorced is something to be considered as she could rationalize her own thinking to cheat on you later on. You are not yet divorced and she's OK with that?!?! To me that says a lot about her and what is accepted married or not. That's not the kind of woman any man wants. As for WR....she will move on. Not to mention have you even considered the thought of another man raising your kids with your wife? You are opening that door as long as this goes on. For me just the thought of that makes me vomit with my kids. She's sounds as if she is willing to do some heavy lifting. Let her heal your heart if you are willing humble yourself to let her try. Hold her....look into her eyes and ask yourself these questions.


----------



## Augusto

MattMatt said:


> Now, here's an off the wall idea. Help WR in the greenhouse. Plant some seeds, nurture them together, see how that works out.



Is there a hidden message here? My mind can easily be in the gutter with your wording on the suggestion.


----------



## happy as a clam

Augusto said:


> Is there a hidden message here? My mind can easily be *in the gutter* with your wording on the suggestion.


Huh? :scratchhead: 

I must be slooooooow....


----------



## Observer

None of this is fair. It's not fair to WR, it's not fair to Chris, and honestly, it's not fair to the OW Chris is with. At some point, the cycle has to stop as other people are now being affected outside the marriage. I will not condem the OW for being involved with Chris because I have no idea what is being told to her.


----------



## happy as a clam

Observer said:


> None of this is fair. It's not fair to WR, it's not fair to Chris, and honestly, it's not fair to the OW Chris is with. At some point, the cycle has to stop as other people are now being affected outside the marriage. *I will not condem the OW for being involved with Chris because I have no idea what is being told to her.*


:iagree:

I don't condemn OW at all! Who knows what line of BS is being spewed to her? To me, SHE is the INNOCENT victim in their dysfunctional *Hatfields & McCoy* dispute.

But regardless of that fact, neither Chris nor White Rose can make any meaningful, rational decisions while OW is involved.

To me, *the biggest loser in this whole sorry mess is the OW.* Chris and White Rose can jerk themselves around for years and years (as they already have in the past)... sad, pathetic really. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that OW knows NOTHING about the extent of White Rose's betrayal (and Chris's near-mental breakdown) as a result... and how he is just *using *her (OW) to "fill in the gap." While he thinks about White Rose.

What an effing mess.


----------



## 2ntnuf

happy as a clam said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I don't condemn OW at all! Who knows what line of BS is being spewed to her? To me, SHE is the INNOCENT victim in their dysfunctional *Hatfields & McCoy* dispute.
> 
> But regardless of that fact, neither Chris nor White Rose can make any meaningful, rational decisions while OW is involved.
> 
> To me, *the biggest loser in this whole sorry mess is the OW.* Chris and White Rose can jerk themselves around for years and years (as they already have in the past)... sad, pathetic really. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that OW knows NOTHING about the extent of White Rose's betrayal (and Chris's near-mental breakdown) as a result... and how he is just *using *her (OW) to "fill in the gap." While he thinks about White Rose.
> 
> What an effing mess.


Oh, good grief....lowers head and shakes slowly side to side....

The world just got a little more sad and dark.


----------



## NoChoice

happy as a clam said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I don't condemn OW at all! Who knows what line of BS is being spewed to her? To me, SHE is the INNOCENT victim in their dysfunctional *Hatfields & McCoy* dispute.
> 
> But regardless of that fact, neither Chris nor White Rose can make any meaningful, rational decisions while OW is involved.
> 
> To me, *the biggest loser in this whole sorry mess is the OW.* Chris and White Rose can jerk themselves around for years and years (as they already have in the past)... sad, pathetic really. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that OW knows NOTHING about the extent of White Rose's betrayal (and Chris's near-mental breakdown) as a result... and how he is just *using *her (OW) to "fill in the gap." While he thinks about White Rose.
> 
> What an effing mess.


I fear the breakdown is more than near. I have followed this thread on and off and have seen Chris change fundamentally as someone does who experiences hurt and betrayal beyond that which they can bear.

WR,
For the sake of all things holy, do not pretend to be in this only to later revert back to your wayward ways. It is almost certain that Chris cannot take any more of this. If you are not sure in your heart of hearts that you are ready to commit to Chris wholly, completely, exclusively and permanently then do not continue with this charade. If you are however convinced and certain, beyond ANY doubt, that you are willing and able to commit to this family then you need to show that in everything you say and do and even think. The stakes are very high here now.

Chris,
You are acting like a man bereft of conscience and moral integrity. The woman you're with, is she fully aware of your feelings and situation? Does she understand that a family hangs in the balance? Does she want to "cloud" your judgement by offering you something she may not be fully prepared to follow through on?

Look, there have been grave lapses in judgement and errors made on both sides and we could certainly debate whose were worse and why but to what end? This situation has been replete with pain and anguish and is still causing more of the same. You took a vow, twice if I recall correctly, for better or worse and you have certainly experienced the worse. Are you up to see if there is any better?

You two have a family together and the events of late, as horrific as they were, may be the only catalyst that could have made your family bulletproof. You see, when two people wed it is assumed that each knows the gravity and seriousness of the vows they are taking. Sadly however, this is very often not the case. One or perhaps both of the promisors does not understand the life altering commitment they are making. Usually this is due to immaturity and lack of sufficient thought. In your case this proved to be true.

So, what is the best way to learn? I have found experience to be the best teacher. Her lessons are poignant and are rarely ever forgotten because they are most often quite painful and hard to endure. That lesson however, can be invaluable and is one of the rare conditions under which people can actually undergo real change. I believe that WR has experienced such a lesson.

The truth is that infidelity is horrible and horrible situations offer little in the way of comfort and security BUT the resultant product can. We can let tragic situations destroy us or we can choose to stand in the face of the onslaught and fight for what we want. If we weather the storm, usually what emerges on the other side is stronger, purer and more able to withstand adversity than that which existed originally.

Your family has experienced the perfect storm and the last real question is, have you endured it? Can you take the hard learned lessons and make the new family stronger and more inseparable than it could have been before, turning this tragedy into a triumph? I believe that each of you need to step back and search your soul for the answer to this question. Do it for yourself, your children and the sake of your family together.

With absolute dedication by both of you this can be overcome, not easily but diligently. It is up to you now as to whether it will or not. I wish every good thing for your family.


----------



## terrence4159

just read this thread, wanted to stay away, not going to beat WR up for her actions or chris for his but i have one question for WR. if you guys to get back together and he forgives you for what you did (well not forgive but not hold against you he will never forgive and shouldnt...same goes for you to him)

are you prepared to cut your family out of your life??? the ones that knew you were cheating and never told him?? he is never ever going to want to be around them again! and he may never say it but will never want you around them again either, and can you blame him?!


----------



## Augusto

Observer said:


> None of this is fair. It's not fair to WR, it's not fair to Chris, and honestly, it's not fair to the OW Chris is with. At some point, the cycle has to stop as other people are now being affected outside the marriage. I will not condem the OW for being involved with Chris because I have no idea what is being told to her.



It doesn't matter what is told to her. Chris is STILL married. As long as he does not divorce and tells another on the outside he is "separating", he strings along two people.


----------



## Augusto

terrence4159 said:


> just read this thread, wanted to stay away, not going to beat WR up for her actions or chris for his but i have one question for WR. if you guys to get back together and he forgives you for what you did (well not forgive but not hold against you he will never forgive and shouldnt...same goes for you to him)
> 
> are you prepared to cut your family out of your life??? the ones that knew you were cheating and never told him?? he is never ever going to want to be around them again! and he may never say it but will never want you around them again either, and can you blame him?!


Families are part of the forgiveness. Both must be open with everyone.


----------



## KingwoodKev

At least you 

1. Admitted everything (sucks that it had to be proven before you did)

2. Admitted what kind of person you are (zero integrity as a human being).

3. Humbled yourself completely to the one you betrayed.

You actually have a chance to regain a shred of integrity. Another big step is you admit you no longer have a right to any type of privacy where your husband is concerned. 100% transparency. Same cell phone account, no email accounts he doesn't have access to. Nothing. Zero privacy for you until you're fulling redeemed.

You have to realize the pain of being betrayed by the person you're closest to on this earth is the worst pain of all. The absolute worst.

We all have layers of trust around our hearts. We keep everyone at a certain layer depending on how hurt you'll be if they let you down. In the most inner circle of trust is your spouse. That level where betrayal can actually kill the heart completely. Now you're no longer in that level. He can't afford to let you be that close again because nobody could survive that twice. Nobody. You'll have to work very hard and long to regain that. I'm rooting for both of you.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

terrence4159 said:


> just read this thread, wanted to stay away, not going to beat WR up for her actions or chris for his but i have one question for WR. if you guys to get back together and he forgives you for what you did (well not forgive but not hold against you he will never forgive and shouldnt...same goes for you to him)
> 
> are you prepared to cut your family out of your life??? the ones that knew you were cheating and never told him?? he is never ever going to want to be around them again! and he may never say it but will never want you around them again either, and can you blame him?!


I have offered to move house, problem is we have a unique situation but I offered. I am not that close to them. I don't think Chris would want me to cut them out but I haven't asked him. I don't think he wants to come back now. I would if he wanted me to. I could go and tell them why easily enough. It is all very complicated though. I have said we will get rid of my brother if he comes back and knock the two houses into one so he gets a bit of space to himself when he needs it.


----------



## GusPolinski

White Rose said:


> I have offered to move house, problem is we have a unique situation but I offered. I am not that close to them. I don't think Chris would want me to cut them out but I haven't asked him. I don't think he wants to come back now. I would if he wanted me to. I could go and tell them why easily enough. It is all very complicated though. I have said we will get rid of my brother if he comes back and knock the two houses into one so he gets a bit of space to himself when he needs it.


Ah. Yet another test. Where do your loyalties truly lie? And why should they rest w/ a brother whose freeloading presence creates nothing but strife and discord in your marriage?

It sounds like your brother is little more than MORE dead weight that you don't need in either your life or your marriage...



Chris989 said:


> A quick update: last night I finished things (again) with the OW.
> 
> Long story short, I thought I would want to go back to WR and my home and my children but I just didn't.
> 
> I had pretty much planned it all out. Finish with OW, text WR, return home to happy children. Get back to "normal", but with the mark III, new and improved WR and back in my nice loving, familiar, home.
> 
> But I just didn't want to go back. I couldn't face the risk that WR is, yet again, pulling the wool over my eyes and the risk that she is, yet again, making promises she won't keep and will fill in with half truths and excuses after.
> 
> When I see her, I only have to touch her to become very, very aroused. I love looking into her eyes still and the sound of her voice kind of lifts me but for some reason none of this is enough and it is causing me very real distress that it isn't.
> 
> I simply don't understand my own feelings on this and it has quite taken me aback. I think my counsellor seems to have a better handle on this when she keeps telling me I need a *lot* more time.
> 
> In the meantime, WR can't help texting, asking how it's going etc. but then she starts accusing me of still messaging the OW.
> 
> *At this point I have to take my counsellor's advice and choose to do nothing. In the meantime, I'll have to start paying for my own place; I've been lucky enough not to have to do that so far, but this will cost around £8k when you factor in rent, bills, expenses and new furniture etc. but I have to have my own place.
> 
> At the same time, her deadbeat brother is living in a fully furnished property of ours next door to my "real" home (that I secured against the wishes of her brothers) effectively rent free - with 3 dogs that keep my children up at night.*


Once you start divesting yourself of the bullsh*t in your life, all the things that are _truly_ important to you will ring true all the clearer.

Kick your brother out on his ass... and whether or not Chris comes back to you.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

I am very prepared to do heavy lifting, I don't want to grow old with somebody else despite what I did. If I made a tick list of everything I want Chris would be it. I've done too little too late and this hurts more than I can say and I know you all know hurt. I can't stand the thought of moving on with another man, I know I could, hard telling someone what I did but I'm not that bad and a much better person now than the last two years but. No Choice thank you, this thread has made me cry uncontrollably but it is good what you say and has made me realise I have to ride this out and wait. Regarding OW, she actually sent a txt to me from C's phone when she kissed him just after we got remarried saying he wasn't coming home. I was on the way to pick him up and ended up getting him from her house. Problem was my daughter was with me and had my phone as I was driving and saw the txt, we waited outside her house until my daughter texted him. It was awful and he then invited her to a BBQ at our home with her little son and I fed them all. My daughter told my other daughter and they both came down to look at her, I believed nothing was going on at that time and told the girls this to put their minds at rest as they were worried. My youngest cried to my eldest when she found out. Needless to say now they know what she did when we got remarried they do not like her and getting them all in a room together will take some doing.


----------



## GusPolinski

White Rose said:


> I am very prepared to do heavy lifting, I don't want to grow old with somebody else despite what I did. If I made a tick list of everything I want Chris would be it. I've done too little too late and this hurts more than I can say and I know you all know hurt. I can't stand the thought of moving on with another man, I know I could, hard telling someone what I did but I'm not that bad and a much better person now than the last two years but. No Choice thank you, this thread has made me cry uncontrollably but it is good what you say and has made me realise I have to ride this out and wait. *Regarding OW, she actually sent a txt to me from C's phone when she kissed him just after we got remarried saying he wasn't coming home. I was on the way to pick him up and ended up getting him from her house. Problem was my daughter was with me and had my phone as I was driving and saw the txt, we waited outside her house until my daughter texted him. It was awful and he then invited her to a BBQ at our home with her little son and I fed them all. My daughter told my other daughter and they both came down to look at her, I believed nothing was going on at that time and told the girls this to put their minds at rest as they were worried. My youngest cried to my eldest when she found out. Needless to say now they know what she did when we got remarried they do not like her and getting them all in a room together will take some doing.*


Chris... 

Dude.


----------



## Chris989

Sorry, it's another half story. Turns out she has also been telling her own friends her special version of 'the truth' and receiving advice based on that.

Some things, it seems, never change.


----------



## Dogbert

Chris989 said:


> Sorry, it's another half story. Turns out she has also been telling her own friends her special version of 'the truth' and receiving advice based on that.
> 
> Some things, it seems, never change.


Care to share the other half of the story?


----------



## 2ntnuf

So, we can believe half of what WR wrote? Still doesn't look good. Most members who've been here a while almost automatically know to take things with a big grain of salt, since we only get 1/3 of the real truth. The other parts are the spouse's opinion and then the friends, relatives and acquaintances who've been witnesses. Combine all of those. Shake them. Don't stir, and you have the most truth you can find somewhere near where they all seem to overlap.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Right, I am not lying but was typing quickly and it may be misleading but when I stated that OW kissed C in her garden at her house instead of the one I was supposed to be picking C up from it was the first kiss, I believe that she instigated when they were both drunk and she had a boyfriend she was trying to finish with but still a boyfriend.

I did not mean to make out as though the affair started then but it was certainly an emotional affair as she started to txt Chris after that and quite late at night. I actually saw some of them because they came through to my phone, I don't know why and I monitored them and then challenged C about them. It was obvious to me that she was coming onto him and I said he shouldn't be replying late at night to a woman he just met and it would lead her on and that i could tell she was coming onto him. I told him it was like the other woman that came onto him and funnily enough her txts came to my phone as well but I managed to get him to tell her to stop because he had told me she was after going to a hotel with him. I told him I didn't like what is now OW texting him and I asked for her not to be invited to the BBQ but he said she was just a good time girl and he'd had to invite her as everyone invited themselves. This did put my mind at rest, I trusted him and when I saw her at the BBQ I saw what he meant. There was a very strange situation where her boss, his partner and her were all snuggled up on the settee together and i thought it looked too friendly and felt sorry for the guys partner. I even pointed it out to C and said it was wrong and again he said oh she's just a good time girl but even said it was odd himself. I mean it was odd in a very weird kind of a way and put my mind at rest when C said what he said. 
OW was divorced by her first husband because he believed she had an affair but it turned out to be an emotional affair with her boss. She likes her bosses this one does, Chris could be seen as her boss too. Her next boyfriend also turned up at her house when C was there and C said he got a funny feeling about it but apparently he was just stalking her. She apparently referred to the kiss with C the next day as just a drunken snog. She apparently got with C just before he left when they were on a night out and she told him she'd leave her door open if he wanted to come round. She knew he wanted to leave me by now but also must have known I was picking him up as it was a good way from our house. Today C told me she is completely innocent in this but I beg to differ and it is very upsetting for me. I know what I did was horrendous and I am truly sorry. I don't have form on this and will never do it again. I really think C is blinkered to this woman. This is highly hypocritical coming from me I know but not a good basis for a new relationship.

The other situation where C says I'm lying to my friend was a text I sent earlier which he saw. I said he had been texting OW all night as I texted him last night as I was upset because he told me he had finished it again but he couldn't come home as he was not ready. This morning when we talked I thought he said he'd been talking to her for an hour and a half after me. I told my friend that he had been texting her all night which was an exaggeration but not a lie and makes no difference to the context of our conversation. I texted when C saw it and I said I thought that's what he said but he wasn't texting all night. I'm typing this because I want you all to know I'm not lying about these issues. I do not want my friend to think worse of C and would not do that, I have nothing to gain it was an honest mistake.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Chris989 said:


> Sorry, it's another half story. Turns out she has also been telling her own friends her special version of 'the truth' and receiving advice based on that.
> 
> Some things, it seems, never change.


I've explained it was not a lie. Earlier today I thought you said you'd been talking to her for an hour and a half after me. I misheard, not a crime but a mistake and told my friend that. The other thing you refer to as a half truth was what I wrote about the first kiss with OW, I did not mean to mislead anyone into thinking you started your affair then.


----------



## MattMatt

*This bus seems to be having brake problems!*

*The driver and the conductor had better start to work together to save the poor bloody passengers from certain disaster.* 

By passengers I mean the children who certainly never asked for any of this.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Observer said:


> None of this is fair. It's not fair to WR, it's not fair to Chris, and honestly, it's not fair to the OW Chris is with. At some point, the cycle has to stop as other people are now being affected outside the marriage. I will not condem the OW for being involved with Chris because I have no idea what is being told to her.


OW knows what has happened to some degree, she knew we were remarried as Chris told her we'd divorced but it was not his fault, I think thats what was said but it was obvious that I'd had an affair the way he said he told her to me. That was, I think when she kissed him as she would have seen a crack in our marriage and he was at her house when I was supposed to pick him up elsewhere.

OW knows nothing about me and Chris trying to sort things out as a long term plan and I don't think about his therapy but that is to make him better firstly but they do talk about him coming back etc at therapy sessions.
She doesn't know the half of it but some.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

MattMatt said:


> *This bus seems to be having brake problems!*
> 
> *The driver and the conductor had better start to work together to save the poor bloody passengers from certain disaster.*
> 
> By passengers I mean the children who certainly never asked for any of this.


You're right. The kids are not too bad, obviously upset and love dad coming round but hate him going. My youngest has told him she wants him to come back but he can't.


----------



## BashfulB

> If I made a tick list of everything I want Chris would be it.


Except That Chris doesn't seem to be as tanned as you would prefer.

I'm not buying it. You had lost your physical attraction to Chris and went out and found you a bad boy thug, had your fun and now you want your old comfortable life back. If Chris does come back, what happens five years down the road, after all the drama dies down and you are once again stuck with your pasty white comfortable husband and you get bored again? 

Where are you when it comes to physical attraction to Chris? I don't read where you describe him as handsome or sexy or desirable. Yeah, you go on about what a great husband and dad he is, but not much about the physical attractiveness. Whereas he gushes about how you turn him on when you touch him. I don't see that feeling reciprocated much, or maybe I have misread.


----------



## MattMatt

BashfulBull said:


> Except That Chris doesn't seem to be as tanned as you would prefer.
> 
> I'm not buying it. You had lost your physical attraction to Chris and went out and found you a bad boy thug, had your fun and now you want your old comfortable life back. If Chris does come back, what happens five years down the road, after all the drama dies down and you are once again stuck with your pasty white comfortable husband and you get bored again?
> 
> Where are you when it comes to physical attraction to Chris? I don't read where you describe him as handsome or sexy or desirable. Yeah, you go on about what a great husband and dad he is, but not much about the physical attractiveness. Whereas he gushes about how you turn him on when you touch him. I don't see that feeling reciprocated much, or maybe I have misread.


OM wasn't a bad boy thug. He actually holds a MA from a prestigious university. So maybe not a "bad boy thug" thing?

I am not sure if your post is really helpful at this point in their process.


----------



## 2ntnuf

BashfulBull said:


> Except That Chris doesn't seem to be as tanned as you would prefer.
> 
> I'm not buying it. You had lost your physical attraction to Chris and went out and found you a bad boy thug, had your fun and now you want your old comfortable life back. If Chris does come back, what happens five years down the road, after all the drama dies down and you are once again stuck with your pasty white comfortable husband and you get bored again?
> 
> Where are you when it comes to physical attraction to Chris? I don't read where you describe him as handsome or sexy or desirable. Yeah, you go on about what a great husband and dad he is, but not much about the physical attractiveness. Whereas he gushes about how you turn him on when you touch him. I don't see that feeling reciprocated much, or maybe I have misread.


Edit: No matter what his profession, thug or not. That part meant little to what I was thinking.

I have a crazy theory about this. It has to do with biology and the change of life. It may well be sexist. I do think it has some validity. I think it deals with the seemingly inhereted weakness of individuals to become alcoholics or drug addicts and the ability to keep themselves from doing things they know is wrong, but feels really good and sates a deep desire to run away to a fantasy which sometimes works. Those stories where it works, combined with those two weaknesses and opportunity, create a situation that some cannot avoid. Once those biological changes come to pass, things are not completely back to the way they were, but close. I think that is a big factor in why some can say they will never do it again. They don't have the desire. The only trouble with that is, the damage has been done. What was good is a memory and cannot come back. It has to be all new or not at all. Since trust was already established and was shredded, it's even tougher to get back.


----------



## BashfulB

2ntnuf said:


> Edit: No matter what his profession, thug or not. That part meant little to what I was thinking.


Problem is, whether the OM was a thug or an educated gentleman with a Masters degree, Chris's perception of what he was is what matters.

I think the racial issue is very important in this case. If WR is attracted to black men, then how the hell is Chris going to compete with that? How can WR sit there and tell us she is willing to try to have desire for a man who she is not physically attracted to? 

I don't think it is racist to ask this question. It just is what it is. If WR prefers black men, then she needs to D Chris and date black men. 

I love redheads. I am not attracted to Asian women, no matter how pretty they are. Does that make me a racist? No. I'm just attracted more to Caucasian women with red hair than I am Asian women. It is my preference.


----------



## BashfulB

MattMatt said:


> I am not sure if your post is really helpful at this point in their process.


I think my questions are very relevant. And if Chris is going to be able to move past it, this question has to be dealt with. I don't support people who skirt important issues just because they are uncomfortable to deal with. 

Like I said, whether the OM was a thug or gentleman, what matters is what Chris thinks of him.


----------



## bfree

2ntnuf said:


> Edit: No matter what his profession, thug or not. That part meant little to what I was thinking.
> 
> I have a crazy theory about this. It has to do with biology and the change of life. It may well be sexist. I do think it has some validity. I think it deals with the seemingly inhereted weakness of individuals to become alcoholics or drug addicts and the ability to keep themselves from doing things they know is wrong, but feels really good and sates a deep desire to run away to a fantasy which sometimes works. Those stories where it works, combined with those two weaknesses and opportunity, create a situation that some cannot avoid. Once those biological changes come to pass, things are not completely back to the way they were, but close. I think that is a big factor in why some can say they will never do it again. They don't have the desire. The only trouble with that is, the damage has been done. What was good is a memory and cannot come back. It has to be all new or not at all. Since trust was already established and was shredded, it's even tougher to get back.


I'm an alcoholic and drug addict. Yet I was able to have some standards when it came to the women I bedded. I made sure not to ever get involved with a married woman. Was it some shred of decency in an otherwise morally bankrupt person? Maybe.

That said I'm beginning to agree with those that say a leopard doesn't change it's spots. Now I don't mean that I agree with once a cheater always a cheater. But I do think that the part that allowed the WS to cheat is still in there just like the part of me that once abused alcohol and drugs is still part of me. I went through years of tearing myself down and building myself back up to try to put in place safeguards that will help me to resist the temptation to find refuge in fantasy when things get tough. WR has to do the same if she wants to truly control that part of herself. It's a long journey that she needs to travel by herself, for herself.


----------



## 2ntnuf

BashfulBull said:


> Problem is, whether the OM was a thug or an educated gentleman with a Masters degree, Chris's perception of what he was is what matters.
> 
> I think the racial issue is very important in this case. If WR is attracted to black men, then how the hell is Chris going to compete with that? How can WR sit there and tell us she is willing to try to have desire for a man who she is not physically attracted to?
> 
> I don't think it is racist to ask this question. It just is what it is. If WR prefers black men, then she needs to D Chris and date black men.
> 
> I love redheads. I am not attracted to Asian women, no matter how pretty they are. Does that make me a racist? No. I'm just attracted more to Caucasian women with red hair than I am Asian women. It is my preference.


I don't think it's racist either. I guess I missed your point. But, I hadn't thought much about it being a racist post, to start with. I thought it was more about his earning potential and status in society than the color of his skin. Since you've explained, I get it. 

The physical attraction thing is a big one, but I don't think she has that much attraction for _anyone_ now. Reference my previous post. Edit: Also, reference the fact that there is apparently no boyfriend or mention of a desire for one. There is only mention of desiring closeness, comfort and companionship, not necessarily stated in those words. 

And that's really another issue in my mind. I was just thinking about it. I mean, when she needed a man most, she didn't go to the man who was dedicated to her and promised to do all he could for her. That's a really big deal to me and I am almost afraid to post this because I don't know how true it is for WR. I may be projecting and therefore only post this for consideration and thought. I also post it as another issue that may need to be addressed before or during a reconciliation. 

Man, infidelity messes up so much.


----------



## BashfulB

> And that's really another issue in my mind. *I was just thinking about it. I mean, when she needed a man most, she didn't go to the man who was dedicated to her and promised to do all he could for her.* That's a really big deal to me and I am almost afraid to post this because I don't know how true it is for WR. I may be projecting and therefore only post this for consideration and thought. I also post it as another issue that may need to be addressed before or during a reconciliation.


But this is where the attraction aspect comes into play. Its not enough for a man to be good at this and good at that. The woman has to be physically attracted to him or all else is trumped.



> The physical attraction thing is a big one, but I don't think she has that much attraction for anyone now. Reference my previous post. Edit: Also, reference the fact that there is apparently no boyfriend or mention of a desire for one. There is only mention of desiring closeness, comfort and companionship, not necessarily stated in those words.


Yeah, because right at this moment her future is in jeopardy. She has humiliated herself before family and friends and shaken the trust of the one man who would have stood by her to the death. It's easy to lose frivolous behaviors when your head is on the stump. 

What happens to all this good intent when Chris takes her back, and down the road all is safe and comfortable again?


----------



## 2ntnuf

bfree said:


> I'm an alcoholic and drug addict. Yet I was able to have some standards when it came to the women I bedded. I made sure not to ever get involved with a married woman. Was it some shred of decency in an otherwise morally bankrupt person? Maybe.
> 
> That said I'm beginning to agree with those that say a leopard doesn't change it's spots. Now I don't mean that I agree with once a cheater always a cheater. But I do think that the part that allowed the WS to cheat is still in there just like the part of me that once abused alcohol and drugs is still part of me. I went through years of tearing myself down and building myself back up to try to put in place safeguards that will help me to resist the temptation to find refuge in fantasy when things get tough. WR has to do the same if she wants to truly control that part of herself. It's a long journey that she needs to travel by herself, for herself.


Thank you. Point taken and I appreciate the honesty and openness. It means a great deal and I did not mean to say that any addict or alcoholic would cheat, just that there may be something like whatever is inside the alcoholic or drug addict that will make them weaker to temptation than others. Just as you state in your second paragraph. 

It mainly deals with that in combination with perimenopause, which sometimes creates a very high drive in some women and ignites fantasies which were before, too scary to pursue. Once menopause hits and hormones level out, there seems to be a drop in libido in those same women. 

Still, there are many who go through the same and don't cheat. Which is why I added that there must be some sort of odd connection. Hey. What the hell do I know? It's an educated guess. Education from the school of hard knocks and what I've read since getting here. YMMV


----------



## Wolfman1968

BashfulBull said:


> But this is where the attraction aspect comes into play. Its not enough for a man to be good at this and good at that. The woman has to be physically attracted to him or all else is trumped.


I would agree with this.


----------



## As'laDain

im not an alcoholic, i just drink to take the edge off and i can still get my work done.
_*i am an alcoholic, i need to go to AA and avoid alcohol because i will always be tempted to drink, and i need to learn better coping strategies*_

im not addicted to drugs, i only this stuff after the work is done, and i only use this stuff at work because i do better work on it. 
_*i am addicted to drugs, i need to go to therapy and NA to learn better coping strategies.*_

im not a child abuser, im just firm on discipline because the kid needs to learn to be a man. 
_*i am abusive, i need to go to therapy to learn to manage my anger.*_

im not a cheater, this situation is different.
_*i am a cheater, so i need to accept that i can stray so that i will be willing to do things to prevent myself from doing it again.*_



the second you acknowledge your faults, you can form strategies to effectively cope with them. denying them is what ties them to you.


----------



## MattMatt

I think we are seeing another example of what happens when someone comes to a long thread and starts rehashing old arguments and starts up with unhelpful name calling.

It happened with the thread of EI and B1 and with Tears and again with the thread/s of Chris and WR.

It's not helpful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## As'laDain

the old argument of "what happens when you get bored, your head is turned, someone else turns you on, etc?"

i think we as a collective on TAM are too quick to forget that its like an addiction, and if the WS has already decided to own that they are capable of cheating, they have already taken the first step to avoiding it in the future. 


hell, even i am capable of cheating. i have never cheated in my life, but thats because i am afraid of it. i have found myself attracted to others and i know how it feels to have a miserable relationship with my wife. i acknowledge that i could fail, so i actively seek out ways to prevent myself from failing. some times, it takes a lot of work. 

isnt that what WR is here for? 

what say you WR?


----------



## MattMatt

BashfulBull said:


> I think my questions are very relevant. And if Chris is going to be able to move past it, this question has to be dealt with. I don't support people who skirt important issues just because they are uncomfortable to deal with.
> 
> Like I said, whether the OM was a thug or gentleman, what matters is what Chris thinks of him.


But this has already been covered in great detail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

BashfulBull said:


> Problem is, whether the OM was a thug or an educated gentleman with a Masters degree, *Chris's perception of what he was is what matters.*





BashfulBull said:


> I think my questions are very relevant. And if Chris is going to be able to move past it, this question has to be dealt with. I don't support people who skirt important issues just because they are uncomfortable to deal with.
> 
> *Like I said, whether the OM was a thug or gentleman, what matters is what Chris thinks of him.*


Not really. After all, it wasn't how Chris felt about OM that landed WR in OM's bed.



BashfulBull said:


> I think the racial issue is very important in this case. If WR is attracted to black men, then how the hell is Chris going to compete with that? How can WR sit there and tell us she is willing to try to have desire for a man who she is not physically attracted to?
> 
> I don't think it is racist to ask this question. It just is what it is. If WR prefers black men, then she needs to D Chris and date black men.
> 
> I love redheads. I am not attracted to Asian women, no matter how pretty they are. Does that make me a racist? No. I'm just attracted more to Caucasian women with red hair than I am Asian women. It is my preference.


It's one thing to have a simple preference; it's quite another to have an _absolute *requirement*_. Having said that, neither _necessarily_ makes someone a racist.


----------



## 2ntnuf

MattMatt said:


> I think we are seeing another example of what happens when someone comes to a long thread and starts rehashing old arguments and starts up with unhelpful name calling.
> 
> It happened with the thread of EI and B1 and with Tears and again with the thread/s of Chris and WR.
> 
> It's not helpful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wasn't my intention to rehash, name call or anything else. I thought it was right along the lines of finding a good reason to reconcile and being as sure as you can that someone is genuine. Seems as though that is the sticking point. 

Why is it the sticking point? I think that is because of being plan B. Get past that with confidence that you are plan A, and I think you open the door to a full recovery. 

Of course, some things can't be changed or explained. Therefore, they must be accepted or rug-swept, whichever suits.

Edit: I was seeing a lot of, the children miss you and so forth. Using the children as pawns bothers me. One day they will have to move out. Then what?


----------



## Augusto

White Rose said:


> OW knows what has happened to some degree, she knew we were remarried as Chris told her we'd divorced but it was not his fault, I think thats what was said but it was obvious that I'd had an affair the way he said he told her to me. That was, I think when she kissed him as she would have seen a crack in our marriage and he was at her house when I was supposed to pick him up elsewhere.
> 
> OW knows nothing about me and Chris trying to sort things out as a long term plan and I don't think about his therapy but that is to make him better firstly but they do talk about him coming back etc at therapy sessions.
> She doesn't know the half of it but some.


WR.......I now realize the severity of your situation. She has a child. That is a game changer in itself. I think you are in trouble. With my situation, I did not know this until rumor spread at my work that my wife and I might be spitting up. The one consistent theme was "kind and gentle father" and that my wife was a total b!tch being floated in the office. The single moms are after the good fathers. If they can steal one, they will. I told them all to hit the road but your hubs clung to one. This woman will do anything sexually. Feed him anything he wants, buy him the things he wants etc.... If she did not have a child, I promise you she would not be going after your husband. There were 3 with kids and 2 without that were interested in me at work. I do not know where they got their into from that I was available and wanted a new wife. First if I was available, I would not look for work for a companion. The next one would be no women that are breeders or still want to breed as I have the kids that I want and that is that. The other is I doubt I'd remarry. But some of the emails and texts were quite graphic. I never asked for them and I never ever flirted with any of them. I was tempted to go to HR but let it go. But it was an eye opening experience on how much value a good father is to a women. Especially when they want one for their current children.


----------



## BashfulB

MattMatt said:


> I think we are seeing another example of what happens when someone comes to a long thread and starts rehashing old arguments and starts up with unhelpful name calling.
> 
> It happened with the thread of EI and B1 and with Tears and again with the thread/s of Chris and WR.
> 
> It's not helpful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm just asking Chris not to rugsweep it.


----------



## MattMatt

BashfulBull said:


> I'm just asking Chris not to rugsweep it.


:wtf: rugsweep? 

If you can worry that Chris is in danger of rugsweeping you really have missed Chris' several threads, his use of Cheaterville and so on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## convert

MattMatt said:


> :wtf: rugsweep?
> 
> If you can worry that Chris is in danger of rugsweeping you really have missed Chris' several threads, his use of Cheaterville and so on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


he could be also be talking about his current Girl friend he can't rug sweep that either.

Is OM still on cheaterville?


----------



## happy as a clam

I'm with Jellybeans... Time to hide this train wreck of a thread (if I can figure out how). Sleeping goggles, anyone?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

convert said:


> he could be also be talking about his current Girl friend he can't rug sweep that either.
> 
> Is OM still on cheaterville?


Oh, yes. He now has 2,052,483 views on his Cheaterville entry.

And some helpful soul, who seems to be a co-worker, has added a bit of other detail to the POSOM's story.


----------



## BashfulB

I'm not talking about rugsweeping the affair. 

I'm talking about them rugsweeping the attraction issue.

Why would Chris, a logical human being, wish to risk his future on a woman who claims to be physically attracted to him but whose actions have repeatedly proved otherwise?


----------



## vellocet

BashfulBull said:


> Why would Chris, a logical human being, wish to risk his future on a woman who claims to be physically attracted to him but whose actions have repeatedly proved otherwise?


Or risk a future with a woman that has a high attraction or obsession for a type of man that Chris is clearly not?


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

BashfulBull said:


> I'm not talking about rugsweeping the affair.
> 
> I'm talking about them rugsweeping the attraction issue.
> 
> Why would Chris, a logical human being, wish to risk his future on a woman who claims to be physically attracted to him but whose actions have repeatedly proved otherwise?


I am physically attracted to Chris, that is not in doubt. He has no issues with that. You may as well drop that as it will get no further replies.


----------



## ConanHub

MattMatt said:


> Oh, yes. He now has 2,052,483 views on his Cheaterville entry.
> 
> And some helpful soul, who seems to be a co-worker, has added a bit of other detail to the POSOM's story.


I adore helpful people.&#55357;&#56842;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

White Rose said:


> I am physically attracted to Chris, that is not in doubt. He has no issues with that. You may as well drop that as it will get no further replies.


Fair enough but it was a line worth exploring. If you have delved into your core and found that your physical attraction to OM as opposed to C was not a factor in your infidelity then so be it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

White Rose said:


> I am physically attracted to Chris, that is not in doubt. He has no issues with that. You may as well drop that as it will get no further replies.


But it has been stated that you have an obsession with a particular type of man. That being of a certain race. Attracted to Chris you may be, but unless he can change to fit the type of man you seemed to have been infatuated with, then Chris isn't the one for you, IMO


----------



## As'laDain

vellocet said:


> But it has been stated that you have an obsession with a particular type of man. That being of a certain race. Attracted to Chris you may be, but unless he can change to fit the type of man you seemed to have been infatuated with, then Chris isn't the one for you, IMO


That actually brings up a really good question... was it the OMs skin color that WR was attracted to, or the feeling of new life from something exotic and unknown. Something new? 

This is something that might need to be figured out in a therapy session. Because if it's the latter, then chris certainly could provide that. Hell, ANYONE could. A different skin color would simply be a visual stimulus that is already present to trigger the feelings. But, they can be triggered through anything new...

remember the thread about adventures with your spouse? Well, i remember reading somewhere that couples who do exciting and new things together report being far happier in their marriages and have lower divorce rates...

something to think about...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

vellocet said:


> But it has been stated that you have an obsession with a particular type of man. That being of a certain race. Attracted to Chris you may be, but unless he can change to fit the type of man you seemed to have been infatuated with, then Chris isn't the one for you, IMO


There can be one sure fire way of curing such an obsession. Acting on it. As I know to my personal regret.

Would I do it again? No bloody chance!


----------



## vellocet

MattMatt said:


> There can be one sure fire way of curing such an obsession. Acting on it.


I think she already did....at the expense of her marriage and husband.


----------



## harrybrown

White Rose said:


> You're right. The kids are not too bad, obviously upset and love dad coming round but hate him going. My youngest has told him she wants him to come back but he can't.


Have you read this article? 

https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/kids-are-resilient-and-7-other-lies-divorcing-107330654983.html

Kids can really be hurt by the breakup of families. I wish more parents would be less selfish. Some parents do not think about what happens to the kids.


----------



## MattMatt

vellocet said:


> I think she already did....at the expense of her marriage and husband.


For my idiotic revenge affair I went after someone who had something, some physical attributes that I wanted. Or thought I wanted.

Do I still admire that certain physical attribute?

In all honesty, yes.

Would I cheat on my wife again to go after that? No. Because it would not be worth the heartache.

I think WR would agree with me on that point.

We ain't going there again !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chris989

harrybrown said:


> Have you read this article?
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/kids-are-resilient-and-7-other-lies-divorcing-107330654983.html
> 
> Kids can really be hurt by the breakup of families. I wish more parents would be less selfish. Some parents do not think about what happens to the kids.


That "article" is just a rant; a polemic on divorce.


----------



## happy as a clam

Chris989 said:


> That "article" is just a rant; a polemic on divorce.


I agree. An equally compelling argument could be made pointing out the complete opposite viewpoint.

As for the "study" that revealed that ALL kids are worse off and parents should just live in misery together, well, studies can be manipulated to get exactly the results you are looking for. Another cleverly constructed "study" would yield the complete opposite results from this one.

Look, divorce s*cks. For everyone. And yes, it s*cks for the kids. But so does living in a household where the parents are frosty, display no affection for each other, fight constantly, tension so thick you can cut it with a knife.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

MattMatt said:


> For my idiotic revenge affair I went after someone who had something, some physical attributes that I wanted. Or thought I wanted.
> 
> Do I still admire that certain physical attribute?
> 
> In all honesty, yes.
> 
> Would I cheat on my wife again to go after that? No. Because it would not be worth the heartache.
> 
> I think WR would agree with me on that point.
> 
> We ain't going there again !
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely, no way, like sticking my hand in a fire.


----------



## Q tip

happy as a clam said:


> I agree. An equally compelling argument could be made pointing out the complete opposite viewpoint.
> 
> As for the "study" that revealed that ALL kids are worse off and parents should just live in misery together, well, studies can be manipulated to get exactly the results you are looking for. Another cleverly constructed "study" would yield the complete opposite results from this one.
> 
> Look, divorce s*cks. For everyone. And yes, it s*cks for the kids. But so does living in a household where the parents are frosty, display no affection for each other, fight constantly, tension so thick you can cut it with a knife.


So, the study convinces me a happy well adjusted marriage, leadership and mentoring kids, tough love and discipline is good.  

Faithful partners, well aware of strong boundaries and the evil that easily awaits weak boundaries is the way to go.

Communication, personal alone time with each other and constantly reinvest emotionally with each other reaps dividends. Never ever take each other for granted. Invest in your marriage every day

Set high expectations of yourself, your spouse and children. Challenge them but never let them fail. Guys, balance their alpha and beta. Don't let your wife make up for your weakness, build it up yourself and lead the family.... 

...and the women really run the whole darn shooting-match. They have a huge vote and should be listened to.

Or am I wrong here...


----------



## Augusto

Chris989 said:


> That "article" is just a rant; a polemic on divorce.


Or denial and and ignorance for those that do not want to believe it.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Thank's everyone for the help on these pages. I'm feeling sort of numb at the moment not knowing what will happen next. I feel like I've run out of steam a bit but by that I don't mean I'm giving up. Things are looking up. I know this is a slow process for him to feel safe again, he may feel safe and just feel too much has happened to be able to come back. I need to be a very different person from now on in which I feel I can do. I'm feeling very hurt by ow and as hypocritical as that may sound it is slowly sapping my reserves of everything. I know even if she was not there I still have a mountain to climb but not a mountain with a wall round the bottom with a gate that is locked.
I am still looking at my past issues and feel it is that behaviour before the affair that is to be addressed. I have got some more counselling sorted for that and am continuing and I think doing well to dig into what made me resentful. I'm afraid it's nutty stuff but can only sort it if I identify it and get rid of it through understanding it. For those who have been telling C I could cheat again I'd say I just couldn't because I have no desire to. My children know about this as well as Chris, I am happy for everything to be transparent. I realise what I did was wrong and I realise the pain everyone has gone through. I have talked to a lot of people about this and I could not look them in the eyes and say I did it again. I have sort of made myself accountable to these people who trust I am remorseful. And most of all Chris, I do not want to let him down or hurt him again and want him to be proud of me for being at his side. I have offered to quit my job to be home in the evenings as he has been like a lone parent for years.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Take good care of yourself WR. Fill your cup.... You will need it to continue this work. Just like driving a car... you only get so far if you skip the gas stations. Fuel your soul, rest, recover. It IS hard work, which means you too need to rest, eat well, take breaks. While you are practicing kindness with Chris, practice it towards yourself as well.


----------



## Augusto

White Rose said:


> Thank's everyone for the help on these pages. I'm feeling sort of numb at the moment not knowing what will happen next. I feel like I've run out of steam a bit but by that I don't mean I'm giving up. Things are looking up. I know this is a slow process for him to feel safe again, he may feel safe and just feel too much has happened to be able to come back. I need to be a very different person from now on in which I feel I can do. I'm feeling very hurt by ow and as hypocritical as that may sound it is slowly sapping my reserves of everything. I know even if she was not there I still have a mountain to climb but not a mountain with a wall round the bottom with a gate that is locked.
> I am still looking at my past issues and feel it is that behaviour before the affair that is to be addressed. I have got some more counselling sorted for that and am continuing and I think doing well to dig into what made me resentful. I'm afraid it's nutty stuff but can only sort it if I identify it and get rid of it through understanding it. For those who have been telling C I could cheat again I'd say I just couldn't because I have no desire to. My children know about this as well as Chris, I am happy for everything to be transparent. I realise what I did was wrong and I realise the pain everyone has gone through. I have talked to a lot of people about this and I could not look them in the eyes and say I did it again. I have sort of made myself accountable to these people who trust I am remorseful. And most of all Chris, I do not want to let him down or hurt him again and want him to be proud of me for being at his side. I have offered to quit my job to be home in the evenings as he has been like a lone parent for years.


Alright this is getting old. You need to tell Chris to either knock it off and get serious or end the marriage. He needs to support you to help you grow through this if he wants a real future with you and your children. If he is not sure about that, give him a deadline or you file for divorce. You can love him now but you can love another later on in life as well. And you probably will not cheat on that guy considering you realize what this has caused. I promise you he will regret it if he wants to divorce. All he really did is trade a former cheater for an accomplice to a cheater(Chris). He must not hold her in very high regard if its OK with him to still be married. Yes you made a mistake. But he is making a bigger one. And who's to say that this isn't just an excuse to do something with the OW? What if he was waiting for you to screw up the way you did and was fake fronting everyone? To me he's proving that right.


----------



## Chris989

Augusto said:


> Alright this is getting old. You need to tell Chris to either knock it off and get serious or end the marriage. He needs to support you to help you grow through this if he wants a real future with you and your children. If he is not sure about that, give him a deadline or you file for divorce. You can love him now but you can love another later on in life as well. And you probably will not cheat on that guy considering you realize what this has caused. I promise you he will regret it if he wants to divorce. All he really did is trade a former cheater for an accomplice to a cheater(Chris). He must not hold her in very high regard if its OK with him to still be married. Yes you made a mistake. But he is making a bigger one. And who's to say that this isn't just an excuse to do something with the OW? What if he was waiting for you to screw up the way you did and was fake fronting everyone? To me he's proving that right.


You got me there Augusto.

Sound advice too!


----------



## Decorum

You are looking in the right place WR, figure out what the toxic dynamic was and work on it. When Chris can see the growth in you as a person this will go a long way to helping him visualize himself with you. He will not want to lose you.

I wish you well, take care!


----------



## Decorum

Augusto said:


> Alright this is getting old. You need to tell Chris to either knock it off and get serious or end the marriage. He needs to support you to help you grow through this if he wants a real future with you and your children. If he is not sure about that, give him a deadline or you file for divorce. You can love him now but you can love another later on in life as well. And you probably will not cheat on that guy considering you realize what this has caused. I promise you he will regret it if he wants to divorce. All he really did is trade a former cheater for an accomplice to a cheater(Chris). He must not hold her in very high regard if its OK with him to still be married. Yes you made a mistake. But he is making a bigger one. And who's to say that this isn't just an excuse to do something with the OW? What if he was waiting for you to screw up the way you did and was fake fronting everyone? To me he's proving that right.


Wow interesting, I have to admit I am having a hard time feeling like Chris is marriage material.


----------



## vellocet

Chris989 said:


> You got me there Augusto.
> 
> Sound advice too!


Yes, I move to divorce too. 1) because she cheated on you and 2) you are now becoming no better and maybe are better suited, now after what happened, for the single life.


----------



## Chris989

Decorum said:


> Wow interesting, I have to admit I am having a hard time feeling like Chris is marriage material.


Don't marry me.

Simples.


----------



## G.J.

Chris989 said:


> Don't marry me.
> 
> Simples.


Your already married and I think WR would have some thing to say at the minute if you guys tried that


----------



## Augusto

vellocet said:


> Yes, I move to divorce too. 1) because she cheated on you and 2) you are now becoming no better and maybe are better suited, now after what happened, for the single life.


Irony about this is she might end up normal and Chris could be screwed up for years. Chris clouded himself by going outside on the "what if" and/or "why not". WR may have lit a match but Chris did not need to throw gasoline on it. WR is running out of water in the fire-hose. Soon she'll let it burn and trade UP for a shiny new engine unit.


----------



## Augusto

Chris989 said:


> You got me there Augusto.
> 
> Sound advice too!


Chris-

Can you stomach the idea of your children being raised along with another man? You are paving that road for WR. You can be replaced sir.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

This is certainly the risk Chris is running if he doesn't remove the OW.

There is no reason to have her around by now.


----------



## MattMatt

Blossom Leigh said:


> This is certainly the risk Chris is running if he doesn't remove the OW.
> 
> There is no reason to have her around by now.


Chris is a gentleman. He doesn't want to break OW's heart, or WR's heart.

But someone's heart gotta be if not broken, certainly pinged a little bit.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

MattMatt said:


> Chris is a gentleman. He doesn't want to break OW's heart, or WR's heart.
> 
> But someone's heart gotta be if not broken, certainly pinged a little bit.


Then it is time to elevate the kids over the OW. Lets do R proper. If WR is the one who rocks your world and she has unearthed the woman you felt she could be, then clear the decks of competition even IF you still maintain separation for now. 

That is my official challenge...


----------



## ConanHub

Augusto said:


> Chris-
> 
> Can you stomach the idea of your children being raised along with another man? You are paving that road for WR. You can be replaced sir.


Really?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

ConanHub said:


> Really?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think WR will more likely not remarry if Chris can't re-reconcile.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happy as a clam

Augusto said:


> Chris-
> 
> Can you stomach the idea of your children being raised along with another man? You are paving that road for WR. *You can be replaced sir.*


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

^ ^ ^

THIS!!

In a heartbeat Sir, you can (and probably will) be replaced if you don't get your stuff together here. You don't have an infinite time line to clean up your mess...


----------



## ConanHub

happy as a clam said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> ^ ^ ^
> 
> THIS!!
> 
> In a heartbeat Sir, you can (and probably will) be replaced if you don't get your stuff together here. You don't have an infinite time line to clean up your mess...


Chris will never be replaced. Ridiculous concept.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

happy as a clam said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> ^ ^ ^
> 
> THIS!!
> 
> In a heartbeat Sir, you can (and probably will) be replaced if you don't get your stuff together here. You don't have an infinite time line to clean up your mess...


The reason we are here is that WR did try to replace Chris. OM who has 6 kids with 6 different women said no.

There is not a big market for 50 year old women who cheat on their H.


----------



## Decorum

Chris989 said:


> Don't marry me.
> 
> Simples.


Look in the mirror.

Not so simple.


----------



## happy as a clam

ConanHub said:


> Chris will never be replaced. Ridiculous concept.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


On principle -- as in Chris is _irreplaceable_ in WR's life? I agree.

But WR will not remain alone. I don't think it's in her nature.

Chris needs to make a decision. Before it's too late to salvage this marriage and family.


----------



## bfree

I thought Chris said in his thread that he ended it with the OW.


----------



## happy as a clam

bfree said:


> I thought Chris said in his thread that he ended it with the OW.


I guess I missed it. Sometimes it's hard to follow multiple threads that address many of the same issues.

Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## bfree

happy as a clam said:


> I guess I missed it. Sometimes it's hard to follow multiple threads that address many of the same issues.
> 
> Thanks for the heads up.


I just searched his thread and I believe it's post #382. But don't hold me to it if I'm wrong.


----------



## BashfulB

Decorum said:


> Wow interesting, I have to admit I am having a hard time feeling like Chris is marriage material.


Yeah, well when a woman annihilates your self esteem, drags your manhood through the shredder, tears apart your sense of self, destroys your faith in love and life, and humiliates you in the worst way in front of everyone you hold dear, it tends to make one a bit bitter towards marriage and monogamy. Tends to make you want to say "f-ck it...I'm going to live for myself for a while." 

I'm not saying it's right, but I understand the feelings involved and how those feeling could turn Chris away from reconciliation and make them more disposed towards a life of bachelorhood. It doesn't make him a bad guy. 

And I'm still not convinced he's cheating in the moral sense. I think this marriage was murdered a long time ago. Yeah, legally they are still married, but the spirit of that marriage has long since departed the bonds of earth.


----------



## BashfulB

MattMatt said:


> I think WR will more likely not remarry if Chris can't re-reconcile.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bull.


----------



## As'laDain

BashfulBull said:


> And I'm still not convinced he's cheating in the moral sense. I think this marriage was murdered a long time ago. Yeah, legally they are still married, but the spirit of that marriage has long since departed the bonds of earth.


even after he divorced her and then remarried her? they are not STILL married, they are REmarried. 

and then he decided to cheat on her.


----------



## jld

BashfulBull said:


> Yeah, well when a woman annihilates your self esteem, drags your manhood through the shredder, tears apart your sense of self, destroys your faith in love and life, and humiliates you in the worst way in front of everyone you hold dear, it tends to make one a bit bitter towards marriage and monogamy.


If _anyone_ can do that to you, you have handed way too much control over to them.


----------



## Chris989

Augusto said:


> Chris-
> 
> Can you stomach the idea of your children being raised along with another man? You are paving that road for WR. You can be replaced sir.


Perhaps you could save this for my thread. It is not useful to WR - she has come here for advice about her, not me.

I came here several years ago and have received some good advice along the way and some, not so good. WR is going through Hell right now and needs help. I am in turmoil but really don't need that much help.

If you think I haven't thought through every scenario possible over the last nearly 3 years then you are sadly mistaken.

You really are not being helpful to WR and your comments are, I am afraid, quite wide of the mark and more or less meaningless to me.


----------



## Chris989

bfree said:


> I just searched his thread and I believe it's post #382. But don't hold me to it if I'm wrong.


I did finish with her (twice!) but found that, against my expectations, I did not want to return to WR when I had done so. The OW has promised all sorts to "win" me back.

It is back on for now and the situation has been very much complicated by OW's situation which really is her business and I don't want to share that on here.

Ultimately, things will come to a head; I cannot hurry about this and if WR decides to move on then so be it.

She has caused me more pain than many could cope with and treated me appallingly throughout the 26 years we have been together.

If we can see our way through this mess then so be it and I want to be here for WR always, whatever happens. I cannot, unlike many in this situation, bring myself to hate WR for what she has done. 

I want her to be happy; I want both of us to be happy.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Chris989 said:


> I did finish with her (twice!) but found that, against my expectations, I did not want to return to WR when I had done so. The OW has promised all sorts to "win" me back.
> 
> It is back on for now and the situation has been very much complicated by OW's situation which really is her business and I don't want to share that on here.
> 
> Ultimately, things will come to a head; I cannot hurry about this and if WR decides to move on then so be it.
> 
> *She has caused me more pain than many could cope with and treated me appallingly throughout the 26 years we have been together.*
> If we can see our way through this mess then so be it and I want to be here for WR always, whatever happens. I cannot, unlike many in this situation, bring myself to hate WR for what she has done.
> 
> I want her to be happy; I want both of us to be happy.


Totally agree! the thing is, as you pointed out, 26 years and you are still stuck.

You must realize that by your actions you are hurting WR, OW, your self and most important your kids!

IMO you should try to be by your own for a while, not to be back with WR or OW butb to find your self and what you want to do.

Find your self and let everything else come tumpling down! but do it!

Good luck


----------



## vellocet

Augusto said:


> Chris-
> 
> Can you stomach the idea of your children being raised along with another man? You are paving that road for WR. You can be replaced sir.


No, she paved that way.

His handling of the situation isn't good, and he should have more self respect than to do what he is doing.

But even if he had not engaged in revenge cheating, I don't like the bunk of asking a man if he is ok with another man raising his children. This insinuates that a man should stay with a cheating wife simply out of that fear alone.

So WR cheats, and lets say that Chris didn't cheat, would you still be asking him about his kids and another man?


----------



## vellocet

jim123 said:


> The reason we are here is that WR did try to replace Chris. OM who has 6 kids with 6 different women said no.


Eggs-zactly!


----------



## BashfulB

As'laDain said:


> even after he divorced her and then remarried her? they are not STILL married, they are REmarried.
> 
> and then he decided to cheat on her.


Yeah, and If I recall we all tried to warn him off like that guy on the aircraft carrier warns off planes trying to land on a carrier with a burning plane on deck. 

He was foolish to re-marry his xWW before he had a chance to heal. Chris does deserve the Gomer Award for that. But this story between the two of them is so damn messed up and convoluted as to be unbelievable and is one more reason why I think they should part ways and leave each other alone.


----------



## BashfulB

jld said:


> If _anyone_ can do that to you, you have handed way too much control over to them.


Bull.

Not just anyone. If it were a strange woman off the street cutting Chris down and insulting his manhood, he would have ignored her and moved on. This was his wife who he loved and adored. She was the one person he should have been able to trust with his heart. 

I hope WR can see this and take steps to get the counseling she needs to stop this abusive behavior pattern. 

There.. that was my helpful comment.


----------



## ConanHub

happy as a clam said:


> On principle -- as in Chris is _irreplaceable_ in WR's life? I agree.
> 
> But WR will not remain alone. I don't think it's in her nature.
> 
> Chris needs to make a decision. Before it's too late to salvage this marriage and family.


I don't think this is on Chris at all. WR is the one under pressure now. Chris has had enough pressure for two lifetimes. Chris left. He didn't hide a fvck buddy and treat his wife like shyt. He is done. WR needs to get better for her own sake.

I personally think she needs to stay the hell away from men for quite some time. Her I.Q. In relationships has been demonstrably lower than a carrot. She needs to grow and change without the motivation of Chris as some prize.

She needs to get healthier for the sake of not being a miserable human being any longer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

BashfulBull said:


> Bull.
> 
> Not just anyone. If it were a strange woman off the street cutting Chris down and insulting his manhood, he would have ignored her and moved on. This was his wife who he loved and adored. She was the one person he should have been able to trust with his heart.
> 
> I hope WR can see this and take steps to get the counseling she needs to stop this abusive behavior pattern.
> 
> There.. that was my helpful comment.


Exactly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

If you give anyone that kind of control over you, BB, you will be her slave. Unwise.


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> If you give anyone that kind of control over you, BB, you will be her slave. Unwise.


You are not understanding the closeness people allow. Barriers and defenses come down for the one you love. They get access to the most vulnerable aspects of your being. When you allow another person to be that intimate with you, the rewards are heavenly but if they gain that access and betray you, the damage they inflict is greater than anyone else could do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> If you give anyone that kind of control over you, BB, you will be her slave. Unwise.


The control of which you are speaking is that of someone's ability to piss them off to a point where they go out and do something equally, if not more, damaging.

At that point that person isn't going to be their slave. That person isn't going to give a crap what she does. A person in that situation is going to be looking to build an underground tunnel.


----------



## jld

ConanHub said:


> You are not understanding the closeness people allow. Barriers and defenses come down for the one you love. They get access to the most vulnerable aspects of your being. When you allow another person to be that intimate with you, the rewards are heavenly but if they gain that access and betray you, the damage they inflict is greater than anyone else could do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A man has to be able to love a woman without allowing her control she does not want. He has to still be his own independent self.

Maybe my husband can explain it better. He certainly lives it.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> The control of which you are speaking is that of someone's ability to piss them off to a point where they go out and do something equally, if not more, damaging.
> 
> At that point that person isn't going to be their slave. That person isn't going to give a crap what she does. A person in that situation is going to be looking to build an underground tunnel.


That is self-destructive behavior. This revenge affair is certainly self-destructive behavior. But it is not just hurting one person, but many, for whom he should feel responsibility.

I am sorry, Chris, if that seems too direct. I do think it is true.


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> A man has to be able to love a woman without allowing her control she does not want. He has to still be his own independent self.
> 
> Maybe my husband can explain it better. He certainly lives it.


I am probably as hard as a man can be and still be successfully married. I personally wouldn't feel emasculated but I would be devastated in my heart. Your husband could not explain it any better to me.

Allowing someone in is not making you a slave but someone you trust can hurt you greater than someone you don't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> That is self-destructive behavior. This revenge affair is certainly self-destructive behavior. But it is not just hurting one person, but many, for whom he should feel responsibility.
> 
> I am sorry, Chris, if that seems too direct. I do think it is true.


I like your posts on most topics but on infidelity..... You seem so disconnected and unfocused as to make me wonder what planet you are from?&#55357;&#56842;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> That is self-destructive behavior. This revenge affair is certainly self-destructive behavior. But it is not just hurting one person, but many, for whom he should feel responsibility.


No, I agree with what you just said above. Although I wouldn't call it self-destructive.

But WR doesn't have "that kind of control" over him to make him her slave. How can he be her slave if he has one foot out the door?


----------



## jld

ConanHub said:


> I am probably as hard as a man can be and still be successfully married. I personally wouldn't feel emasculated but I would be devastated in my heart. Your husband could not explain it any better to me.
> 
> Allowing someone in is not making you a slave but someone you trust can hurt you greater than someone you don't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course a man would be incredibly hurt if his wife cheated. Of course.

But the way BB described it is giving her too much power. No woman should ever have that kind of power over a man. An independent man, anyway.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> No, I agree with what you just said above. Although I wouldn't call it self-destructive.
> 
> But WR doesn't have "that kind of control" over him to make him her slave. How can he be her slave if he has one foot out the door?


I was referring to BB's description.

I think Chris is a slave to any woman who will give him some affirmation. He desperately needs to develop some emotional independence.


----------



## BashfulB

jld said:


> I was referring to BB's description.
> 
> I think Chris is a slave to any woman who will give him some affirmation. He desperately needs to develop some emotional independence.


You are teetering on blaming the victim here JLD. Careful or I will start up a rape survivors thread.....

Chris was a family man who put up with WR's bullcrap because he loved her, loved his kids and wanted to keep the family together. Men and women suck it up all the time from abusive spouses in order to preserve the family unit. It's called living. Yeah it is unfortunate and yes we can go on saying he should have left her long ago, but he did what he thought was right at the time and in the end it just wore him out. When I look at Chris I see a man who is just flat worn out. 

He is dog-tired and trying desperately to pick up the pieces of his shattered life.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> I was referring to BB's description.


yes, his description of "it tends to make one a bit bitter towards marriage and monogamy."

That's not making anyone your slave and it certainly isn't controlling anyone. Unless WR's goal is to piss Chris off and want to leave...then you'd be correct.




> I think Chris is a slave to any woman who will give him some affirmation. He desperately needs to develop some emotional independence.


He needs to be single.


----------



## jld

We decide if we want to consider ourselves victims or not. We have more power than we think. We need to use that power going forward.

Chris will benefit from developing emotional independence. If it takes being single and away from women to do it, so be it. 

But emotional independence has to be the goal. Even before emotional interdependence.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Hi all,

Just a recap on what is happening, bad news I'm afraid. Chris decided on several occasions that he needed to get rid of OW and admitted for the first time to me she was getting in the way of us getting back together. He has said this and tried to finish it a few times now. Her mum is dying and he was saying he couldn't do it for this reason but was looking for an opportunity. We have spent a lot of time together whilst she has been with her mum and he said he'd missed me a lot and had got closer to the extent that it was urgent he got rid of OW and got his own place and thought about coming back with out her to cloud things. Brilliant I thought but he couldn't end it with her when she agreed to put right the things he wanted from her. The problem is he was saying I want to come back but it was only because he wasn't happy with her. 
Anyway he can't give her up, but he misses her when she's been with her mum so I think he only wanted me because she wasn't around and I'm what he's used to and a damn site nicer too these days. 
I know everyone I've mucked this up and it's my own fault. We did remarry and I did want that with all my heart as low key as it was and the shame I felt because of what I did could not stop me being privileged to be by his side again.
I don't even know why I'm writing this, i don't know what to ask you all even but I've had to say to him he needs to be with her properly and have his space to think or grow his relationship. We have said this in the past but not stuck to it. He doesn't seem able to see that he may like her more than he realises. I am waiting but it's hurting more than I can say, I fear to think the pain he had with me. I hear a tone to his voice that he's gone and she's took my place and I'm so jealous. I said things I didn't mean because I was hurt. We have talked and he said he didn't like what he'd become and should not be intimate with me whilst he's with her and that if I want to call it quits he's ok with that but that he waited 2 1/2 years for me after the affair to sort myself out and that I can't expect to rush him. 
I am rushing him but he has someone else and has been saying he would like to come back to me even down to saying to my daughter that he wasn't buying much furniture because he didn't plan on being in his rental for long. 
I want to wait for him, what is right and proper for us. I feel leaving him alone will push him to OW, I'm scared to let go. I have been told by therapist to not have him at the house unless it is essential and girls can go to his house to see him and not in ours. I have not got to contact him except about the children and he has only to contact me if he wants us to try again and OW is gone. This sounds awful to me and I just want to hold him and hear what he's done today. I'm in a mess but in some ways in a corner with nowhere to go. OW has something but I don't know if it's just that I don't but when she's out of the picture I do, however what killed me was he said he'd missed her when he went round and had said he was going to find a moment and finish it. I don't know about you guys but if you were finishing something that was about 10 weeks in would you go to their house to do it or phone or text, he does work with her so it has to be amicable and she is in pain about her mum.


----------



## BashfulB

jld said:


> We decide if we want to consider ourselves victims or not. We have more power than we think. We need to use that power going forward.
> 
> *Chris will benefit from developing emotional independence. If it takes being single and away from women to do it, so be it.
> 
> But emotional independence has to be the goal. Even before emotional interdependence*.


I agree with you there.

As for the victim part, well, most women don't decide to be thrown on the ground and raped. There are a lot of ways to abuse a person, sometimes those ways are violent and hard, sometimes they take decades.


----------



## jld

Please let him go, WR. It is a way of respecting him.


----------



## Augusto

This will end bad!!!!!


----------



## jld

BashfulBull said:


> I agree with you there.
> 
> As for the victim part, well, most women don't decide to be thrown on the ground and raped. There are a lot of ways to abuse a person, sometimes those ways are violent and hard, sometimes they take decades.


Of course those raped and beaten women are victims. 

I do not put Chris in the same category. YMMV.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

BashfulBull said:


> I agree with you there.
> 
> As for the victim part, well, most women don't decide to be thrown on the ground and raped. There are a lot of ways to abuse a person, sometimes those ways are violent and hard, sometimes they take decades.


No one chooses victimhood when they are actually a victim. An injury was inflicted upon them. They can choose to not let it define their future or choose to make something beautiful out of the broken pieces, but the quip about people choose victim hood is very flawed. If it were so, we would not need our judicial system, so I agree with Bashful that it doesn't always fit the situation.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

Augusto said:


> Irony about this is she might end up normal and Chris could be screwed up for years. Chris clouded himself by going outside on the "what if" and/or "why not". WR may have lit a match but Chris did not need to throw gasoline on it. WR is running out of water in the fire-hose. Soon she'll let it burn and trade UP for a shiny new engine unit.


I don't want a shiny new thing.


----------



## Augusto

jld said:


> Please let him go, WR. It is a way of respecting him.


 I agree......end this BS now. Let WR take what she has learned and apply it to another man. I don't think she needs to be promising her hubs anymore. She has done enough with remorse and transparency. If Chris wants to "care" and be "friends" with his probable x-wife, he needs to prepare to be friends with the x-wife's new husband.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

WR... I see some lostness in Chris. He keeps asking for the women around him to change for him to stick around. He is even doing it with the new girl. There is something that needs fixing there and your greatest gift to him is to allow him the space to fix it. I cannot stress it enough how open handedness with him will enrich your relationship. There is a song that needs to be a mantra for you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJtf7R_oVaw


----------



## BashfulB

jld said:


> Of course those raped and beaten women are victims.
> 
> I do not put Chris in the same category. YMMV.


Well he may not be a victim, but he certainly has all the hallmarks of an abused spouse. 

Be that as it may, I, like you, think he needs to get away from all this drama and mess, much of which he contributed to himself. 

Lose the drama Chris. Leave it behind.


----------



## BashfulB

Augusto said:


> I agree......end this BS now. Let WR take what she has learned and apply it to another man. I don't think she needs to be promising her hubs anymore. She has done enough with remorse and transparency. If Chris wants to "care" and be "friends" with his probable x-wife, he needs to prepare to be friends with the x-wife's new husband.


:iagree:

Except for the "friends" part. Friend-zoning cheapens both ex partners. They need to make a clean break for good. They can be cordial for the times when they have to be around each other for the kids' sakes, but friends? No.


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

He remarried me little over 6 months ago and remained in the house with me after the D. He had a relationship with someone else during that time as well. So that's twice I'm willing to over look, I want him back if it's possible.


----------



## G.J.

The OW is new to him and you know what that's like

When she wasn't there so much it was easier, now shes back it becomes harder again

All you can do is wait and just tell him when HE PHONES/COMES ROUND your feelings and don't be too needy

He went through anguish for 2 1/2 years and subconsciously I think it makes it easier to take his time as 
everything he is doing, *you did other than being honest*

The newness with the OW will fade and Chris is old school so he wants to do the right thing in his mind but 
is enjoying the new OW at the minute even though he knows what he really wants

YOU HAVE TO RIDE IT OUT IM AFRAID
Though unlike Chris I don't think it subconsciously that you reaped what you sowed


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Both... 

During the divorce while still living with WR

And during the 2nd marriage.


----------



## Augusto

BashfulBull said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Except for the "friends" part. Friend-zoning cheapens both ex partners. They need to make a clean break for good. They can be cordial for the times when they have to be around each other for the kids' sakes, but friends? No.


You tell that to him....he just said he wants to always be there for her and not hate her. Sounds like friends to me but perhaps he is being careful.


----------



## imjustwatching

The problem here is not the OW it's you
even if he dump the OW everyone will advice him to work on himself and find an honest faithful woman who will respect him as he deserve .And As the poster above me said this will end bad...


----------



## Suspecting2014

White Rose said:


> He remarried me little over 6 months ago and remained in the house with me after the D. He had a relationship with someone else during that time as well. So that's twice I'm willing to over look, I want him back if it's possible.


Why?

As C said, for 26 years you took advantege over him, 2.5 years you were on an "exit affair" as you was willing to leave C for good.

You didnt care abput other persons knowing about your A (this is very humiliating for any person).

Then you didnt rise a finger heal him.

What has chage?

I belive that you two are so affaid to let go that have convince your selfs that you are in love after all that happened.

I am not writting this to hurt you, I beleive that C is already causing alot of damage as you did. I just can belive that tehre os still something to save deep indie the both of you.


----------



## Wolfman1968

jld said:


> A man has to be able to love a woman without allowing her control she does not want. He has to still be his own independent self.
> 
> Maybe my husband can explain it better. He certainly lives it.


To be honest, didn't this turn out badly in another thread when you pursued this?

Maybe it is not a good idea to pursue this line of thought again.


----------



## MattMatt

There was a cruel joke which mocked a whole nation by saying the shortest book in the world was that nation's book of war heroes.

It seems that an equally cruel joke could be made about some of the advice given on the CWI section of TAM, if it were a book.

Because the CWI book on Marital Advice would contain the following chapters: "How to deal with a cheating spouse: Divorce."

Yes, we get it. You couldn't forgive your WS, so no other BS should have the luxury of forgiving their WS.

It doesn't help. Really. It doesn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

jld said:


> That is self-destructive behavior. This revenge affair is certainly self-destructive behavior. But it is not just hurting one person, but many, for whom he should feel responsibility.
> 
> I am sorry, Chris, if that seems too direct. I do think it is true.


This is the heart of the matter, responsibility, period!

Chris survived by being a co-dependent passive aggressive, avoid-er. He is comfortable manipulating his way through conflict. He did not just become this way, its who he is, and he has yet to face it. How do we put it? Oh yes, he needs to "work on himself".

He has his freedom because of WR's affair and he is "working" the middle.

Ow is meeting Chris more than half way, which in his current state is the only way he can connect.

He is who he is, and he will either take the next step and take responsibility for himself or not. He will never truly be able to love a woman until he does, that is job # 1.

He does not need a fawning controlling mother.

The most healthy relationship he could have right now is with someone who recognizes this and kindly but firmly steps back and lets him own his own shizt. That would be good for him.

Can WR do that, I think she may have what it takes, but her treatment of Chris and her affair seriously complicate it.

Can OW do it, not in a million years, Chris is a prize to her, not a person. Chris is blinded to that because he needs to be needed.

WR keep working on yourself, Chris is drowning in his own slime, when he comes to his senses and says to himself "what have I done" then his recovery and journey to "decent person-hood" begins, but not until then.

Everybody who comes here is in pain, some are good people and through all the devestation and misery it shows through.

Some not so much, but if they will face the truth they can grow through the pain.

What will Chris do? IDK.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BashfulB

Seems the battle lines have been drawn. I'm sticking with Chris.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

There are no battle lines behind people... 

My loyalties are to good constructive behaviors no matter who chooses them.


----------



## MattMatt

BashfulBull said:


> Seems the battle lines have been drawn. I'm sticking with Chris.


This is no competition. There is no battle. It's not a game.

I am sticking with Chris AND White Rose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BashfulB

MattMatt said:


> This is no competition. There is no battle. It's not a game.
> 
> I am sticking with Chris AND White Rose.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah we get you want to help save their marriage. 

I say their marriage is a farce and isn't worth saving. The only positive product of that union was their kids. 

I don't think Chris should gamble the rest of his future on a maybe.


----------



## MattMatt

BashfulBull said:


> Yeah we get you want to help save their marriage.
> 
> I say their marriage is a farce and isn't worth saving. The only positive product of that union was their kids.
> 
> I don't think Chris should gamble the rest of his future on a maybe.


You are wrong. I do not want to save their marriage.

Their marriage was killed, quite rightly, by Chris.

But he remarried WR.

Which meant that they are in a different situation.

If they decide to divorce again, that will be their decision as mature adults.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Augusto

White Rose said:


> I don't want a shiny new thing.


Maybe not now.


----------



## Locke.Stratos

White Rose said:


> So that's twice I'm willing to over look


Twice that you're willing to overlook. My how generous and magnanimous of you (he said to the woman who had a two year affair).

I think that Chris and White are codependent, even when divorced neither can leave the other and that is unhealthy, like two leeches stuck to each other. Chris for the most part has assumed the role and displayed behaviour of a battered-spouse.


----------



## MattMatt

Locke.Stratos said:


> Twice that you're willing to overlook. My how generous and magnanimous of you (he said to the woman who had a two year affair).
> 
> I think that Chris and White are codependent, even when divorced neither can leave the other and that is unhealthy, like two leeches stuck to each other. Chris for the most part has assumed the role and displayed behaviour of a battered-spouse.


Nah. I think you are misreading Chris.

As I have said before, if the POSOM had done research of Chris before he started his affair with WR, he'd have run a mile in the opposite direction.


----------



## Locke.Stratos

MattMatt said:


> Nah. I think you are misreading Chris.
> 
> As I have said before, if the POSOM had done research of Chris before he started his affair with WR, he'd have run a mile in the opposite direction.


Not at all. I'm sure that Chris is more than able to handle White's former lover but that doesn't relate to codependency and battered-spouse syndrome. Even the most physically intimidating and capable can be subject to psychological and emotion abuse.

Chris himself has described his relationship and White's treatment of him during and prior to her affair and its revelation as abusive several times.



Chris989 said:


> She treated me fairly badly and I remember describing the relationship as abusive on several occasions





Chris989 said:


> it's only now I am fully realising the extent of her emotional manipulation of me throughout the years; of how much she put me down, of how cruel she was and how little respect she really showed to me





Chris989 said:


> the renewed pain I am going through in discovering things I hadn't really even considered in the past that were, in hindsight, cruel or downright abusive.





Chris989 said:


> her affair was the culmination of her pattern of abusive behaviour





Chris989 said:


> I haven't shared half of the abuse - both emotional and physical - I have been subjected to over many years. As it happens, I'm not worried by the physical but the emotional has torn me apart over many years. Some of this was exceptionally cruel





Chris989 said:


> There have been times she has tried to use sex to keep me and, had I been a woman, it would have been very abusive and sexually violent behaviour





Chris989 said:


> So I'm stuck in this painful, semi abusive, marriage





Chris989 said:


> For her, this was a green light to abuse me


I know that it is not the norm to think that a man can be a victim of abuse at the hands of a woman, it's hard for some to comprehend and even harder for the victim to admit it to himself but it does happen.

The most common symptom of battered-person syndrome and codependency is the inability and unwillingness to severe the relationship and move on. Theirs has been an unhealthy and toxic relationship.


----------



## MattMatt

Codependency or not? codependency - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Stockholm Syndrome


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Stockholm Syndrome 

Love and Stockholm Syndrome


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Outside of the abusive affair, I would like to hear examples of WR's emotional, psychological and physical abuse and what work she is doing to ensure she is becoming a nonabusive person.


----------



## wmn1

MattMatt said:


> There was a cruel joke which mocked a whole nation by saying the shortest book in the world was that nation's book of war heroes.
> 
> It seems that an equally cruel joke could be made about some of the advice given on the CWI section of TAM, if it were a book.
> 
> Because the CWI book on Marital Advice would contain the following chapters: "How to deal with a cheating spouse: Divorce."
> 
> Yes, we get it. You couldn't forgive your WS, so no other BS should have the luxury of forgiving their WS.
> 
> It doesn't help. Really. It doesn't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


strongly disagree Matt. People here give their own opinions based on their own experiences and sometimes divorce is the answer hands down and sometimes it isn't. What doesn't help in my opinion is allowing a BS to continue to live in their own fog and get abused over and over again while encouraging R (and some people here always encourage R too) in situations that are depraved.

In the end, the OP needs to hear both sides of the argument and choose for themselves. Only hearing 'R, R, R' doesn't help OP all the time.

Now am I in favor of divorce all the time ? NO. Much of the time ? yes. Each case is it's own individual scenario and everyone here gets that.


----------



## wmn1

BashfulBull said:


> Yeah we get you want to help save their marriage.
> 
> I say their marriage is a farce and isn't worth saving. The only positive product of that union was their kids.
> 
> I don't think Chris should gamble the rest of his future on a maybe.



I agree that it's a miserable and unrecoverable situation and I feel D is the only way to go in this case.

There is too much damage and this has to be one of the worst and most convoluted cases I have seen yet on this board. 

Chris is in the wrong now but I feel that the burden remains with WR for her abuses, as Suspecting said, was a whole lot harsher, a whole lot longer and took a good guy and turned him into a misery.

I have always contended that there are scales to these things and I feel that the fault lines aren't equitable.

IMO, if they reconcile, it will be a disaster.


----------



## wmn1

Locke.Stratos said:


> Not at all. I'm sure that Chris is more than able to handle White's former lover but that doesn't relate to codependency and battered-spouse syndrome. Even the most physically intimidating and capable can be subject to psychological and emotion abuse.
> 
> Chris himself has described his relationship and White's treatment of him during and prior to her affair and its revelation as abusive several times.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know that it is not the norm to think that a man can be a victim of abuse at the hands of a woman, it's hard for some to comprehend and even harder for the victim to admit it to himself but it does happen.
> 
> The most common symptom of battered-person syndrome and codependency is the inability and unwillingness to severe the relationship and move on. Theirs has been an unhealthy and toxic relationship.



:iagree:

and yes you are right, guys can get abused as well.

Good job bringing up Chris' past statements. It is something some here overlook


----------



## Blossom Leigh

The status on the abuse situation must be established. I don't condone reconciling to a chronically abusive person unless active effective work is done producing visable consistent safe, loving behavior. If not, no deal. Even I glossed over it on this thread, but believe adequate attention is needed to assess the wisdom of reconciliation moving forward. Chronic abuse conditions necessitates "staying different or leaving" meaning the abuser is getting professional counsel and work on abusive attitudes, behaviors and abusee is using strong boundaries until that work is far enough down the road to ensure safety in the relationship and especially for the kids. If that work is not being done, divorce and seek custody of the kids.


----------



## MattMatt

wmn1 said:


> strongly disagree Matt. People here give their own opinions based on their own experiences and sometimes divorce is the answer hands down and sometimes it isn't. What doesn't help in my opinion is allowing a BS to continue to live in their own fog and get abused over and over again while encouraging R (and some people here always encourage R too) in situations that are depraved.
> 
> In the end, the OP needs to hear both sides of the argument and choose for themselves. Only hearing 'R, R, R' doesn't help OP all the time.
> 
> Now am I in favor of divorce all the time ? NO. Much of the time ? yes. Each case is it's own individual scenario and everyone here gets that.


The problem is that some people have this written in their tool box:-

Nail = Hammer
Screw = Hammer
Anything else = Hammer.

And that's all they have.


----------



## Decorum

MattMatt said:


> Codependency or not? codependency - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com



Interesting MattMatt and worth the read.

I will be more specific with what I had in mind and avoid a label.

If we are not being true to ourselves because we are afraid that a key person will react negatively we are in an unhealthy state of mind. Tension and walking on egg shells is no way to live.

It is fear based and that realization alone can change a persons life. No more need to manipulate, gaslight, embrace duplicity, etc. We will be a better person for that realization.

Many men who are considered "nice guys" and not really so nice, they are fundamentally dishonest because they respond to things based on their anticipation of someones reaction, not out of their character.

I will hasten to add that we can show deference out of love without being "co-dependent", and I am forced to do that with Mrs Decorum all the time, or is that she with me..hummm???

And any LTR will have some dependency, of course.


----------



## Decorum

BashfulBull said:


> Seems the battle lines have been drawn. I'm sticking with Chris.


I'm speechless.


----------



## Decorum

Blossom Leigh said:


> Stockholm Syndrome
> 
> Love and Stockholm Syndrome


Another good read.

I will admit to a childhood plighted by (parental) addictions and verbal/emotional abuse, likely contributing to my own drug use many years ago (about 35 yrs now), it hits close to home but recovery and enlightenment is completely possible to someone who seeks the truth.

I would like to see both Chris and WR move to a better place personally, I believe I am being honest when I say I have no side in the reconciliation issue in this marriage, but I would be pro reconciliation for a healthy relationship.

I do believe that a desire for reconciliation can help to motivate personal improvement so I will go with that when possible.

Take care all!


----------



## bfree

Blossom Leigh said:


> The status on the abuse situation must be established. I don't condone reconciling to a chronically abusive person unless active effective work is done producing visable consistent safe, loving behavior. If not, no deal. Even I glossed over it on this thread, but believe adequate attention is needed to assess the wisdom of reconciliation moving forward. Chronic abuse conditions necessitates "staying different or leaving" meaning the abuser is getting professional counsel and work on abusive attitudes, behaviors and abusee is using strong boundaries until that work is far enough down the road to ensure safety in the relationship and especially for the kids. If that work is not being done, divorce and seek custody of the kids.


I agree Blossom. I mentioned it in Chris's thread. I'd be more concerned about the abuse Chris was subjected to pre affair more than the actual infidelity. I think that's why he's so (understandably) afraid of recommitting to WR and their relationship.


----------



## jim123

bfree said:


> I agree Blossom. I mentioned it in Chris's thread. I'd be more concerned about the abuse Chris was subjected to pre affair more than the actual infidelity. I think that's why he's so (understandably) afraid of recommitting to WR and their relationship.


This is why Chris's IC is telling him to heal away from WR. Once Chris heals, he will finally be able to move on.


----------



## MattMatt

Chris, White Rose, how's it going?


----------



## Tess of the Dauberville

MattMatt said:


> Chris, White Rose, how's it going?


Oh, still waiting! We are in touch regularly. He is still with OW, he likes her but still says he can't see a future in it. I needed a break from the forum and have been concentrating on getting strong and am starting to function a bit normally now. Chris is in his own house not far away and we meet up quite a bit. I am reflecting on what I found in counselling and my writing. I hope I am a much better person now and am hoping still that we will get back together. I really don't know if Chris will stop seeing OW but he is starting to tell me he has little in common with her, she likes chocolate covered strippers apparently amongst other things. It's a waiting game at the moment but we talk and are friends which is good.


----------



## turnera

Chris, if you're still reading, may I suggest that OW is masking your movement forward? I have no idea if you'll end up with WR, but your OW is a rebound and honestly, not someone you would have picked if you'd had your head on straight. OW knew when she met you that you two had no future. Let her go.


----------



## MattMatt

White Rose said:


> Oh, still waiting! We are in touch regularly. He is still with OW, he likes her but still says he can't see a future in it. I needed a break from the forum and have been concentrating on getting strong and am starting to function a bit normally now. Chris is in his own house not far away and we meet up quite a bit. I am reflecting on what I found in counselling and my writing. I hope I am a much better person now and am hoping still that we will get back together. I really don't know if Chris will stop seeing OW but he is starting to tell me he has little in common with her, she likes chocolate covered strippers apparently amongst other things. It's a waiting game at the moment but we talk and are friends which is good.


People often affair down. God knows, I did.

If my revenge affair partner appeared on an episode of Jeremy Kyle I would not be suprised. Would Chris' OW be a candidate for Jeremy Kyle?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Augusto

i thought this thread was closed


----------



## G.J.

MattMatt said:


> People often affair down. God knows, I did.
> 
> If my revenge affair partner appeared on an episode of Jeremy Kyle I would not be suprised. Would Chris' OW be a candidate for Jeremy Kyle?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please noooooooooooo...not one with the tattoos around her arms and in her best trainers who comes on shouting at everyone


----------



## MattMatt

G.J. said:


> Please noooooooooooo...not one with the tattoos around her arms and in her best trainers who comes on shouting at everyone


That was pretty much my AP. Though she had no tattoos.


----------



## MattMatt

Augusto said:


> i thought this thread was closed


Nope. Not this one.

Still open.

Though I think I know the one you might have got in confused with.


----------



## happy as a clam

White Rose said:


> ...she likes chocolate covered strippers apparently amongst other things. It's a waiting game at the moment but we talk and are friends which is good.


Could someone please tell me what a chocolate covered stripper is? Is it exactly as it sounds?


----------



## bfree

happy as a clam said:


> Could someone please tell me what a chocolate covered stripper is? Is it exactly as it sounds?


Hmmmm, I have to admit I'm weirdly curious about that myself.


----------



## GTdad

happy as a clam said:


> Could someone please tell me what a chocolate covered stripper is? Is it exactly as it sounds?


Something you'd have to pay extra for, I imagine.


----------



## happy as a clam

GTdad said:


> Something you'd have to pay extra for, I imagine.


Agreed. But I'm thinking it's like the "Chocolate Dip" cone at Dairy Queen. Who's gonna dip their schnog in hot, molten chocolate?!

:rofl:


----------



## RV9

happy as a clam said:


> Could someone please tell me what a chocolate covered stripper is? Is it exactly as it sounds?


Why waste chocolate on a stripper?? :scratchhead:


----------



## MattMatt

RV9 said:


> Why waste chocolate on a stripper?? :scratchhead:


Is that the same as chocolate dipped strips of bacon?:scratchhead:


----------



## Chris989

Augusto said:


> i thought this thread was closed


Why would it be closed? You are of course welcome not to read it or even post in it?

This thread is about a real life situation and gives a real picture of what happens from discovery of an affair (my post almost 3 years ago now) through the ups and downs of an attempted reconciliation to a break down.

There is still mileage left here. I'm afraid it isn't tidy but nor does it involved mud slinging and abuse.

I wish I had had the opportunity to read something along these lines when I first came here as it would have shown me what might have been in store.

One of the main reasons I have continued posting is honestly as much to help others as to help me and WR. I've been as honest as I can be and often shared details I simply didn't need to.

I'm sorry you don't seem to like this thread Augusto, but I cannot help but wonder if the problem lies with something in your outlook rather than what is happening here?


----------



## Chris989

MattMatt said:


> People often affair down. God knows, I did.
> 
> If my revenge affair partner appeared on an episode of Jeremy Kyle I would not be suprised. Would Chris' OW be a candidate for Jeremy Kyle?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm afraid she wouldn't make good fodder for Jeremy Kyle. She has lived an unremarkable life and had 1 marriage, 1 serious other relationship before that and 1 weirdo stalker of a boyfriend since the marriage (no, not me).

My problem in this is that I am still discovering the damage WR did to me over our 26 years together; some of it really hurts now I have the distance to be able to see what she was doing in terms of mistreatment etc.

WR says she has changed. I believe her on one level - but she has said that before now and each time she has lied.

I owe it to her and me and the kids to try one more time now I've had the benefit of some space but, right now, I don't feel ready.

When and if that time comes I will go back but the time must be right. I'm just coming out of what was an absolutely horrible, horrible time after I left at the end of November. 

My emotional life is a train wreck right now; I haven't told WR (which will be corrected here) but a woman I had a brief fling with whilst we were divorced has been professing her undying love despite me firmly telling her "no more" no way am I getting involved in that by the way, but it's just all so messed up...

If it ain't a mess it'll do 'til one gets here as they say.


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## Locke.Stratos

Chris989 said:


> I owe it to her and me and the kids to try one more time now I've had the benefit of some space but, right now, I don't feel ready


*Chris*, just curious to know why you feel you owe it to her or that you feel she deserves another chance with you? I know it's often said that 'everyone deserves a second chance' but to me that's just something people say, it really has no basis.

I've followed your thread since before I thought to join TaM and I'd seriously hoped that you would have moved on to an enjoyable life without all of this hurt, confusion and drama.

If you want to forgive someone and feel that it is in you to forgive them or if said person has proven and earned forgiveness in your heart for their past misdeeds towards you then that's fine.

I'm not sure how you feel that White is owed another try. Twenty-six years, that's almost ninety percent of my life Chris.

You can be friends, co-parents, civil and caring towards one another or just two people who know each other without you being with her. Forgiveness doesn't mean that you have to get back into a relationship with White.

I quoted a few of your comments of the abuse who've experienced throughout the years like on page 80 of this thread and there was also mention of Stockholm syndrome in your inability to move on.

You say she's changed but people tend to change throughout the years as some of their options, vitality and their attraction diminishes over time.

Their priorities and compromises also change. Where a good, caring spouse may have not sufficed before, he or she may become an attractive prospect now because that person wants security and to be taken care of. The reason for the change is not always noble or a proactive choice, it's a product of circumstance. Is the change noticeable and significant enough that you'd be willing to go through it again?


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## MattMatt

Chris989 said:


> I'm afraid she wouldn't make good fodder for Jeremy Kyle. She has lived an unremarkable life and had 1 marriage, 1 serious other relationship before that and 1 weirdo stalker of a boyfriend since the marriage (no, not me).
> 
> My problem in this is that I am still discovering the damage WR did to me over our 26 years together; some of it really hurts now I have the distance to be able to see what she was doing in terms of mistreatment etc.
> 
> WR says she has changed. I believe her on one level - but she has said that before now and each time she has lied.
> 
> I owe it to her and me and the kids to try one more time now I've had the benefit of some space but, right now, I don't feel ready.
> 
> When and if that time comes I will go back but the time must be right. I'm just coming out of what was an absolutely horrible, horrible time after I left at the end of November.
> 
> My emotional life is a train wreck right now; I haven't told WR (which will be corrected here) but a woman I had a brief fling with whilst we were divorced has been professing her undying love despite me firmly telling her "no more" no way am I getting involved in that by the way, but it's just all so messed up...
> 
> If it ain't a mess it'll do 'til one gets here as they say.


You know, Chris, I doubt very much if WR did actually lie to you all those times.

She told the truth, each and every time. Just like a smoker tells the truth each time they swear that they have just had their last puff on a ***. (Oh. That probably will look a bit weird to any of our American friends. Oh, well!)

My late dad was the same, until he finally gave up when he actually stumbled across some help that worked for him.

Hopefully the counselling WR is receiving will help her make the changes she has longed to make for years, but couldn't quite put into effect.


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## Tess of the Dauberville

My therapy did help but most of all writing and just deep thought helped me realise what I'd been doing for years, infact all my adult life. 
Me and chris had a family day out the other week which ended in disaster. It was very hard to say the least and one which he did now enjoy. It was supposed to be dipping his toe in the water to see if he could think about coming back. He had finished the OW thing but I have the feeling it was not executed cleanly and you all know that feeling that something isn't finished properly. The outcome was that he said he just saw what I'd done when he looked at me. He went back to OW that night. However a week later he is feeling better as I have completely backed off. It has really hurt me that he went back, reason being, I'm seeing someone I don't know any more who went back to a relationship that he says he sees no future in. We have met since at his and it went well this time. He thinks the space I've given him is letting him have time to miss home. He says he feels exhausted and hasnt the strength to finish the relationship because of the 'hassle' he will go through with her txtn and crying etc. He is in a huge mess with ow, I know he cannot be serious about her as he would have nothing to do with me if he was but seems unable to be on his own. I don't think it could work between us at the moment as he is too hurt, he says when we went out I was perfect company and could see a change and thinks there must be a way round. I have stopped caring about OW as I know it's not going to last and if it does he will be unhappy with her as he has begun to see they have little in common except liking a drink.
I am actually only just getting my head around the last 4 months and able to sit back and leave it alone. He did tell me about the other OW which I am annoyed about as although we were divorced we were living together and trying to reconcile at the time. I think he is starting to not like what is happening to him. I am continuing to give that space, I feel a change in myself for the better and I'm not looking for any kind of relationship despite work colleagues encouraging me to date. I am happy at home with the girls and not in any rush. If he can come back great but to be honest I think it's a long time off if ever. It seems to be about him making his own decisions without any pressure from me because of the power I've always had. I think he needs to see I'm not controlling anything and don't want to for him to feel comfortable and see me making changes. I suppose I'm only just starting to change in that respect but I want to help him any way i can.


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## MattMatt

Keep on keepin' on. I thinks that was a slogan back in the day that covers the best way forward for you.

It's a Bob Dylan quote! :smthumbup:


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## turnera

There are people who want to look at life and see how to make it better and there are people who just want life to be ok and easy. The latter group are usually the ones who end up the most miserable.


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## Mr.Fisty

He could care for the both of you. If he really wants to break it off with her, he can tell her he has been using her if he has not done so already. You, yourself will need to deal with the pain as well. Perhaps, you both need to detach from each other to learn to be single before trying. The baggage is still in the way.

During the detachment phase, go through therapy. Make small positive changes. Keep building on those small changes and one day, those small changes will have major impact into changing you into a better person.

In about a years time, see if the both of you could love the new people you have become.

If he stays with you, keeps triggering and running off, it could be detrimental to help in solving your issues. New pain will just arise. You may grow numb to it given enough times, but that is not healthy.

He still needs time to see if he can live with the triggers. You, yourself may suffer from triggers as well.


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## bandit.45

One of the worst tragedies I see, is when an abused and betrayed spouse goes on to start behaving and acting out in the same manner as their abuser. Adultery can do more than just hurt a person, it can change them...on a fundamental level.


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## bfree

bandit.45 said:


> One of the worst tragedies I see, is when an abused and betrayed spouse goes on to start behaving and acting out in the same manner as their abuser. Adultery can do more than just hurt a person, it can change them...on a fundamental level.


Only someone who has been in our position can even fathom 1/1000% of the truth of that statement.


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## MattMatt

bandit.45 said:


> One of the worst tragedies I see, is when an abused and betrayed spouse goes on to start behaving and acting out in the same manner as their abuser. Adultery can do more than just hurt a person, it can change them...on a fundamental level.


Yes. Yes it can.


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## Tess of the Dauberville

Mr.Fisty said:


> He could care for the both of you. If he really wants to break it off with her, he can tell her he has been using her if he has not done so already. You, yourself will need to deal with the pain as well. Perhaps, you both need to detach from each other to learn to be single before trying. The baggage is still in the way.
> 
> During the detachment phase, go through therapy. Make small positive changes. Keep building on those small changes and one day, those small changes will have major impact into changing you into a better person.
> 
> In about a years time, see if the both of you could love the new people you have become.
> 
> If he stays with you, keeps triggering and running off, it could be detrimental to help in solving your issues. New pain will just arise. You may grow numb to it given enough times, but that is not healthy.
> 
> He still needs time to see if he can live with the triggers. You, yourself may suffer from triggers as well.


That's really good advice, thank's. I've been away from TAM a while. I am being a better person. I'm only just getting used to him not being here really.


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## happyman64

How goes it Gizbug?


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## ConanHub

happyman64 said:


> How goes it Gizbug?


Double poster! LOL! Whoops! &#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happy as a clam

happyman64 said:


> How goes it Gizbug?


Ummm... I think Gizbug lives in another thread.

:lol:


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## Tess of the Dauberville

Hi all

Still struggling on with this. If you see Chris' last post you will see there is a failed reconciliation. what I'd like to know is if anyone identifies with how he feels. 
He says he wanted to come back but felt scared about my behaviour not that I'd cheat. He knows I've changed a lot but is just scared of coming home but still hopes for a future. He says it's like he thinks he can climb a high ladder but when it comes to it he's scared but didn't expect to be. He says I need to stop fixating on GF whom he says he can't see a future with because of differences and doesn't want to take on her son. He has however become his own boss with a friend but let her be his admin. He told me the other week the other guy's wife was going to do the admin if his GF had to leave. 
He went immediately back to her after the reconciliation failed and says he is going back to the counsellor but just feels numb in side both about me and her and can only take a day at a time on. He says he still wants to work towards coming home but is further off than he thought. I ask if he feels more for her than he realises and he says no they just have a good time. She is though trying to get him to take on her son and make a commitment when he didn't come back. I suppose she will be worried sick he wanted to come back.
I know what he has with GF has to run it's course and him get sick of that but it feels like 10 months has been forever. He keeps saying he wants to come back and it's just time he needs. Obviously he can't promise. I am so guilt ridden about my affair that I will wait and am getting on with taking care of the kids. I have the feeling that he will not be able to start to let go until he has been with someone the length of time mine lasted as he has said he is worried he may just want his pound of flesh. Before he came home he said it was all starting to feel false being in his house away from the family and he was desperate to come back. He was shocked by how scared he felt when it came to coming back. How can that fade? Surely if he want's to come home he needs to get to the route of how to fix that fear and how does bumping along with a GF he's not that keen on help.
I know I need to not ask him about her as he needs to feel I trust him to make his own decisions and I am going to do that. 
We took our daughter to uni the other day and when we got back we talked, argued, kissed, cuddled and he went home. I know he must not feel much for GF or he wouldn't give me the time of day. 
My gut feeling is someone completely different will walk into his life and be good for him. I could move on if that happened and wish him luck.
But I am not giving up, I need to back off and give him some space to see I'm not interfering. Give me your ideas please. I have no energy for nasty posts as I'm trying to be constructive.


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## bfree

My own personal thoughts here. Cheating is so much more than having sex outside marriage. And rebuilding that broken trust is so much more than promising never to cheat again. This is one thing that I truly wish WS's would try more to understand. As bad as the infidelity itself is the lying, the gaslighting, the blame shifting, the general rotten treatment that the BS receives can be and oftentimes is much worse. See here's what you need to understand. Chris may very well believe you would not have sex outside marriage again (although if truth be told I don't really think he does.) But you damaged him in so many other ways that trust might never be rebuilt. WR, you're dead. The person that Chris fell in love with. The person that he married is gone forever. The things you've done prove that. And now Chris is wondering if the person he fell in love with ever existed. He's questioning whether he was really ever in love in the first place. After all how can you love someone who never existed. You say you've changed and that is undoubtedly true. But changed from what into what? That's what Chris is trying to work out. In his mind's eye he sees a vision of what his life was when he loved you, when he thought you loved him. Then he remembers that it was never real. So when he says he wants to come home what exactly is he thinking of by "home?" You can change all you like but you can never be what Chris sees in his mind when he thinks of the woman he loved and married. And that is what he is struggling to accept. You died and Chris is grieving for your loss. He may one day come to a place of acceptance but he may never fall in love with the person you truly are now.


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## jld

I think giving him and yourself space is a really good idea. Just focus on your job, the kids, some hobbies, friends, etc. Rebuild your life the way you might if he were suddenly killed in a car accident. Acceptance. Independence. Takes the pressure off both of you.

And if he wants, let him be the one to pursue you.


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## turnera

The best way to get him to want the marriage back is for him to see he might lose it. You say you basically 'have to wait for him' because of what you did. Well, no, you don't. You're both adults. You both screwed up. Accept that and walk away from it and set up your life as if he's not coming back. Let him see what YOUR life looks like without him. Then, he MIGHT want it back. But as long as he knows you're just sitting there in your tower waiting for him, out of guilt and whatever else, well, he frankly doesn't have to GIVE you much thought. Let him know you have a timeline, that it's not healthy for anyone. That you are not pressuring him, you'll never tell him what to do. You just need to let him know that, while you'll regret your affair til the day you die, you need him to know you will have to move on. Maybe at the end of the year? 

Then just go back to going about your own business. Telling him this will help him see that he has to respect you at least on some level, as a person who respects herself and won't - can't - just sit there and wait for 5 years for him to pick her again.


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## Openminded

Not every BS who wants to R is actually able to. Sometimes the damage is just too great. He may eventually come home but you need to stop waiting and get on with your life in case he doesn't.


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## alte Dame

I also think he didn't see you feeling remorse or wanting to truly change until it looked to you like he was moving on. Does he think that you have seen the light because someone else appears to want him? If he does, this will certainly color his feelings about trying again to reconcile.

And, in general, things run their course. He may be outgrowing your relationship. Only time will tell.


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## Forest

White Rose said:


> As the title says I am a cheater, I never thought I would say those words...
> 
> I have felt enormous guilt and remorse and am totally devastated by the hurt I have caused him and my family.
> 
> When the affair finished i realised what I should always have known about my husband that he was a wonderful man and that I wanted to put things right. I found out that the arguments I had blamed on my husband and was so sick of were caused by my arrogance...
> 
> 
> Now I am about to be seperated as he has found his anger too much to allow him to get on with his life with me.
> 
> What a waste for two people that still love each other very much.





White Rose said:


> But I am not giving up, I need to back off and give him some space to see I'm not interfering. Give me your ideas please. I have no energy for nasty posts as I'm trying to be constructive.


 I'll just say that I wish your experiences could somehow be broadcast somewhere the audience has not already been blindsided and ruined by such preventable acts of selfishness.

As for constructive ideas, ask your BH if he'd rather you retreated further.


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## MattMatt

Forest said:


> I'll just say that I wish your experiences could somehow be broadcast somewhere the audience has not already been blindsided and ruined by such preventable acts of selfishness.
> 
> As for constructive ideas, ask your BH if he'd rather you retreated further.


I am not entirely sure your post is all that helpful? :scratchhead:

White Rose knows she messed up.

Chris knows he messed up, subsequently.

All a sad, sad mess. 

I feel for all concerned, but perhaps mostly for the children involved.


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## ConanHub

You could try Dr. Harley's plan A.

You have shown good endurance so far, possibly because of trying to make up for your affair, and it takes endurance for plan A.

Everything is out in the open as far as exposure I guess but you could read up on Love Busters and Surviving an Affair.

You might find an inroad using some of his principles.

You can only work on yourself at this point and he does need to work on himself. Using another woman the way he is shows an unhealthy behavior.

If he had found a compatible mate I could understand but if he wants you he needs to quit hurting himself, the other woman and you the way he is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss

MattMatt said:


> I am not entirely sure your post is all that helpful? :scratchhead:


It is and it is honest. People try to be helpful here, but the reality is cheating colors the comments and advice from the betrayed. I'm almost certain he is saying a more neutral venue. 

No, I am not saying all of the advice is horrible or wrong at all. Still, sometimes you need a different perspective from not involved, infidelity wise, parties.


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## Forest

MattMatt said:


> I am not entirely sure your post is all that helpful? :scratchhead:
> 
> White Rose knows she messed up.
> 
> Chris knows he messed up, subsequently.
> 
> All a sad, sad mess.
> 
> I feel for all concerned, but perhaps mostly for the children involved.


It may not be subtle, but I think my suggestion is clear. 

Yes. She screwed up. Now everything and everyone is screwed up. All God's childrens are screwed up and they know it.

None of that has bearing on the possibility that her BH might desire, or benefit from a greater degree of "backoffedness" from her in the wake of all this screwedupedness.


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## aine

You need to have a clear break from one another, you are still dangling your feet in the water. You did an awful thing but should not have to hang on indefinitely, move on. If your BH wants you back you will both have to start from ground zero. In the meantime, go no contact, do other things with friends, family, work, etc.

He is still angry but cannot keep cake eating for ever, that is unfair to you, though understandable for him.

Just let it go.


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## Mr Blunt

> Give me your ideas please. I have no energy for nasty posts as I'm trying to be constructive.


I know that you have been hurt deeply by your own actions and by Chris’s actions so I am going to try and be delicate but I am not real good at that. I hope that you do not see my post as a nasty one but a blunt one that may help.

As others have pointed out, you and Chris have done some pretty deep damage to yourselves. That being the case, then my idea about your situation is that both of you, at this time, are too hurt, damaged and weak to get back together and make a good marriage.



> He keeps saying he wants to come back and it's just time he needs.


No that is not all that is needed. *What Chris and you both need is to do everything you can to build yourself back up so that you are strong enough to not let your betrayals of each other be in control of your emotions that bring about a negativity towards yourself and your partner.*



> I am so guilt ridden about my affair


*In addition, you both need to get strong enough so that you can take what comes with a normal marriage.* Even without the damage that you have both done to each other there is tough times in a marriage. So even if you can improve your selves enough to handle your past you will have to face normal conflicts in a marriage. Those normal conflicts will trigger your emotions regarding your past betrayals and that is a double load to carry.





> My gut feeling is someone completely different will walk into his life and be good for him. I could move on if that happened and wish him luck


.
This is faulty thinking and probably emotionally controlled. Why are you strapping yourself with depending on some woman to walk into his life and also be good for him before you move on?

*Your job right now is to concentrate on you and your children*; you cannot take on an additional criterion that includes a possible woman that will walk into his life and make his life good.* Are you going to put your life on hold and make your advancing in life dependent on Chris and this possible other woman?* Even if this possible woman shows up, how long will it take for you to be convinced that she will be good for him? Just about any woman can be good for him in the first several years; it is the long haul that counts. *Are you going to wait decades?*


You are guilt ridden and Chris is full of fear and you both have damaged your integrity and self-respect. How are you two weaklings going to come together and face not only your past but all the conflicts that come from a normal marriage?

My constructive ideas for you and Chris is for you both to work only on yourselves and stop trying to jump the gun and make it together right now. It is possible that when you both get a LOT stronger in the years to come that you both can come back together and make a good enough marriage that you will both have some good times and be more help for your children.

*Getting stronger will include you both DOING THE RIGHT THING Long enough that you a can both be a lot more of a giver*. Right now you are both hampered by guilt and fear and they dominate you both. You are limited in being a giver when you are so controlled by your negative emotions and reduced self-respect.

*You both can still have a good life with or without each other is you get stronger.*


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## Bibi1031

WR,

Be forgiving of your past transgressions and give yourself the gift of freedom. Ironically, you have now become Chris's PLAN B.

You are the only one that holds the key to get out of the self inflicted prison your guilt is putting you in. Take the key (I will wait for you Chris) and set yourself free to seek healing and happiness with someone else. His anger will not subside, you have a right to find your new path since you are indeed FREE.

He is the father of your girls. Nothing more, nothing less. You cannot be friends as you two will eventually have partners and your partners will see it wrong to be friends with your X. Your new partners deserve that kind of respect from you two. 

He is with someone else and you deserve to get your needs met as well. Run, don't walk towards your freedom and healing.

(((Hugs))))

Bibi


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## jld

Bibi1031 said:


> WR,
> 
> Be forgiving of your past transgressions and give yourself the gift of freedom. Ironically, you have now become Chris's PLAN B.
> 
> You are the only one that holds the key to get out of the self inflicted prison your guilt is putting you in. Take the key (I will wait for you Chris) and set yourself free to seek healing and happiness with someone else. His anger will not subside, you have a right to find your new path since you are indeed FREE.
> 
> He is the father of your girls. Nothing more, nothing less. You cannot be friends as you two will eventually have partners and your partners will see it wrong to be friends with your X. Your new partners deserve that kind of respect from you two.
> 
> He is with someone else and you deserve to get your needs met as well. Run, don't walk towards your freedom and healing.
> 
> (((Hugs))))
> 
> Bibi


I agree with this. I would urge you to detach. Move on with your life. Let him move on with his. 

If he wants to come for you, he will. But let him do it on his own.


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## carmen ohio

turnera said:


> The best way to get him to want the marriage back is for him to see he might lose it. You say you basically 'have to wait for him' because of what you did. Well, no, you don't. You're both adults. You both screwed up. Accept that and walk away from it and set up your life as if he's not coming back. Let him see what YOUR life looks like without him. Then, he MIGHT want it back. But as long as he knows you're just sitting there in your tower waiting for him, out of guilt and whatever else, well, he frankly doesn't have to GIVE you much thought. Let him know you have a timeline, that it's not healthy for anyone. That you are not pressuring him, you'll never tell him what to do. You just need to let him know that, while you'll regret your affair til the day you die, you need him to know you will have to move on. Maybe at the end of the year?
> 
> Then just go back to going about your own business. Telling him this will help him see that he has to respect you at least on some level, as a person who respects herself and won't - can't - just sit there and wait for 5 years for him to pick her again.


I couldn't agree more with this. In fact, I advised something very much like this back in January:



> Now, since you cheated on Chris but want him back, you suppose that there is nothing you can do about his adultery. Well, in that you are wrong. Under the time-proven adage, _'two wrongs don't make a right,'_ you have just as much  reason to hold Chris to account for his cheating as he does for yours. More importantly, the solution to on-going adultery -- to sever ties with the adulterer unless and until he or she stops cheating-- is just as necessary to end a revenge affair as it is to end the first cheater's affair. And don't kid yourself, although he may be loathe to admit it, what Chris is doing is an act of revenge for what you did to him.
> 
> Until you give Chris a reason to stop cheating, although you can rightly condemn him, you can hardly expect him to stop. If you really want to know whether you and Chris have a future together, you need to force him to choose between you and the OW. You say you feel Chris is slipping away. Well, what do you expect? By putting up with his cheating and enabling him to avoid acknowledging his share of the responsibility for destroying his family, you are facilitating his double life/cake-eating and giving him no reason to seriously consider coming back to you.
> 
> Remind him that you are prepared to do whatever he reasonably asks of you to help him deal with your unfaithfulness, but tell him that, despite what you did, you are a human being worthy of respect and what he is doing is disrespectful of you as wells as of his family. Start detaching from him (the so-called, 180) and insist that, if he wants to see his children, he see them somewhere other than in your house. In other words, treat him like the cheater that he is and then wait and see if, after a period of time, he ends his affair. If not, file for divorce and, if that doesn't cause him to stop cheating, accept the fact that your marriage is over and then do what is best for your children.
> 
> Only by forcing Chris to make a choice will you learn if the two of you have a future together. The sooner you start, the sooner will you have your answer. The longer you wait, the less the chance that the answer will be the one you want.


White Rose has demonstrated remorse for what she did and gotten her act together. She has a right to expect the same from her now-the-wayward husband. If he's not mature and/or decent enough to do that, then she has every right to move on and, by showing him that she is prepared to move on, she will finally learn whether she and Chris might have a future together.


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## MattMatt

How is it going, both?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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