# Ironic Trend or something else?



## McDean

Just finished reading another post from a wife 'in love' with her husband but who lost the sexual attraction to him, yet believes she would have it for other men. Having read several posts over the past 3+ months in the same vein of thought, what is the scoop? Moving hormonal/medical issues aside, don't we all think about sex with others practically all the time? It's only ironic to me because I've been told my whole life as a male that this would be the 'temptation' I should fight against to keep a healthy marriage and then I come here and find a surprising number of women who feel this way, in some cases act on it....in some cases the wives even say their husbands are good in bed so what gives?


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## samyeagar

McDean said:


> Just finished reading another post from a wife 'in love' with her husband but who lost the sexual attraction to him, yet believes she would have it for other men. Having read several posts over the past 3+ months in the same vein of thought, what is the scoop? Moving hormonal/medical issues aside, don't we all think about sex with others practically all the time? It's only ironic to me because I've been told my whole life as a male that this would be the 'temptation' I should fight against to keep a healthy marriage and then I come here and find a surprising number of women who feel this way, in some cases act on it....in some cases the wives even say their husbands are good in bed *so what gives*?


The fact that women and men really aren't all that different when it comes to sex, and never have been, is finally being openly talked about.


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## TJW

It's like John D. Rockefeller said, this man who was a billionaire in the 1900s, when asked "How much money does it take to satisfy a man?" -
answered "Just a little more...."


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## happy as a clam

McDean said:


> Moving hormonal/medical issues aside, don't we all think about sex with others practically all the time?


Honestly? (50 year old female here)...

No! We don't always think about sex with others "practically all the time."

Being sooooooo into my hot sexy guy, I don't give other guys (hot or not) the time of day. There is simply NO ONE who can compare, in my mind. I don't even think about it. (But I DO think about him all day )

Maybe it's different for guys, but I can honestly say it isn't true for me.


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## UMP

I was thinking about this the other day. I've been married 24 years and want to bang everything that walks (just about ) I have no problem saying this because my wife knows. I have told her. I assume she feels exactly the same way, give or take.

The whole challenge in marriage, especially a long term marriage is to try and keep it interesting. To keep the fire burning. People get bored with each other. Even the Ferrari I have owned for over 20 years only gets driven maybe twice a year. When I first got that car, I think I pissed my pants during the first drive, now it's a forced drive once or twice a year to get the cars juices flowing.

However, IMO you can have great sex late into a marriage. We are going twice a week and it's the best it's ever been. It's something you both have to invest in and work on. Just last night we were both tired, but were going to have sex. She started BJ as I was trying to get something on the TV to muffle our sounds because of the kids. I could not get the Direct TV to work and started laughing, she did too. We were both not really "in the mood", BOTH in reactive desire mode. Low and behold, we both got going and it turned out fanfriggentastic.


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## happy as a clam

UMP said:


> I was thinking about this the other day. I've been married 24 years and want to bang everything that walks (just about ) I have no problem saying this because my wife knows. I have told her. I assume she feels exactly the same way, give or take.


Sorry UMP, but can't relate to this.

I have NO DESIRE to even look at other men (my guy is the hottest ), let alone b*ng them.


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## UMP

happy as a clam said:


> Sorry UMP, but can't relate to this.
> 
> I have NO DESIRE to even look at other men (my guy is the hottest ), let alone b*ng them.


That's OK. I think most women (IMO) are more like you and most men are like me. However, I still think my wife thinks other men are hot and "strange" is always tempting, even for my wife. That is why I always have to be at the top of my game:grin2:

I do try, HARD !


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## always_alone

UMP said:


> That's OK. I think most women (IMO) are more like you and most men are like me.



Some women genuinely feel this way. Others just tell their partners that so that he won't get all jealous and possessive, and start making scenes.

There isn't anything at all ironic or unusual, to my mind at any rate, that women have wandering eyes and thoughts. What's more astounding is that we manage to have monogamous relationships at all.


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## UMP

always_alone said:


> Some women genuinely feel this way. Others just tell their partners that so that he won't get all jealous and possessive, and start making scenes.
> 
> There isn't anything at all ironic or unusual, to my mind at any rate, that women have wandering eyes and thoughts. What's more astounding is that we manage to have monogamous relationships at all.


I agree. Even when my wife tells me she's not interested in others, I figure she's just trying to be nice and not cause trouble. Regardless, I assume she is just as nasty as I am, well almost as nasty:grin2:


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## Runs like Dog

Every married couple I've known well in the past 20 years, who broke up, broke up because the wife cheated, whether she got caught or not. More often she did not get caught. That is simply by observation.


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## always_alone

Runs like Dog said:


> Every married couple I've known well in the past 20 years, who broke up, broke up because the wife cheated, whether she got caught or not. More often she did not get caught. That is simply by observation.


Huh. That's interesting. From the couples I know, almost all of them involved the man cheating, whether he got caught or not (mostly not). I'm betting the anecdotes even out in the wash, probably often within the very same couples.


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## McDean

Interesting responses so far, appreciate the insights. Do notice a trend starting however that the 'work to keep it interesting' seems to fall more on the man's side of responsibility, which is a little unfair but basically it seems men and women are more alike that previously thought, but men have been told for decades to bury those urges where I think women have been told for decades to seek something better if their 'needs' aren't being met....forgetting it would seem that, a good father/worker/husband in every other way doesn't necessarily grow on trees.....


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## EVG39

Believe it or not, considerable research is being done around this very issue. Go watch the TED talk given by Esther Perel called "Mating in Captivity". It will begin to answer some of your questions. We as men may not like what researchers are discovering about women on this topic but we are fools to ignore it.


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## UMP

McDean said:


> Interesting responses so far, appreciate the insights. Do notice a trend starting however that the 'work to keep it interesting' seems to fall more on the man's side of responsibility, which is a little unfair but basically it seems men and women are more alike that previously thought, but men have been told for decades to bury those urges where I think women have been told for decades to seek something better if their 'needs' aren't being met....forgetting it would seem that, a good father/worker/husband in every other way doesn't necessarily grow on trees.....


I can tell my wife works pretty hard at it too. I try to space out the sex every 3 or 4 days because she is just not interested. However, if I REALLY want to have sex, she can see this and obliges. In the past she would go starfish, but now she really tries to get into it and 99% of the time it's a success.

I think the major problem for me and most men is that you expect your wife to have the same sort of spontaneous desire that you have. Early on, this was the case. However, 24 years in, even for myself, it takes a bit of work to get us both going.....or a mutually agreed time to not have sex. 

I may still have spontaneous desire for someone who walks by me on the street but need a little help with someone you've seen every day for the last 24 years. I am certain my wife has a similar issue with seeing me every day too.


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## always_alone

McDean said:


> Interesting responses so far, appreciate the insights. Do notice a trend starting however that the 'work to keep it interesting' seems to fall more on the man's side of responsibility, which is a little unfair but basically it seems men and women are more alike that previously thought, but men have been told for decades to bury those urges where I think women have been told for decades to seek something better if their 'needs' aren't being met....forgetting it would seem that, a good father/worker/husband in every other way doesn't necessarily grow on trees.....


I think the trend is only indicative of who has answered your question so far. Women have been told from the beginning of time all of the things we must do in order to keep their men interested in them, and not off wandering somewhere else, and it was made clear to us that even doing all of these things might not work because, you know, women don't actually have anything that keep men interested for the long term. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT2FFfzpzY0

Indeed, the whole idea that men need to do anything at all other than marry her is a pretty new concept in the marriage-advice world.


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## Faithful Wife

McDean said:


> Interesting responses so far, appreciate the insights. Do notice a trend starting however that the 'work to keep it interesting' seems to fall more on the man's side of responsibility, which is a little unfair but basically it seems men and women are more alike that previously thought, *but men have been told for decades to bury those urges* where I think women have been told for decades to seek something better if their 'needs' aren't being met....forgetting it would seem that, a good father/worker/husband in every other way doesn't necessarily grow on trees.....


Women have been told to bury the urges, too.

They were told to bury them before they even really took hold, shaming and blaming women for any sexual arousal they experienced, long before they even were old enough to be sexual or be married.

But then suddenly, she gets married and is expected to shed all that shame and negative conditioning and be a sex freak.

Not only that, she is expected to go against her biological nature and be 100% monogamous to that one man.

Meanwhile, men are told to bury their urges, but their urges are very much acknowledged and catered to, in the form of porn, other highly sexual images, the availability of strippers and hookers, and just by "common knowledge" that such urges EXIST and that they are strong.

If a woman has strong sexual urges, she is considered a freak.

This is all changing now as women are like "f*ck this, I'm a sexual being, which is natural and is my birth right".


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## Cletus

UMP said:


> That's OK. I think most women (IMO) are more like you and most men are like me. However, I still think my wife thinks other men are hot and "strange" is always tempting, even for my wife. That is why I always have to be at the top of my game:grin2:


Look at the recent release of A.M. information if you want a little insight into the proclivity of the genders to seek a little something on the side, at least online. 35 million accounts, almost certainly no more than 100,000 were actual breathing women, and their membership was free.


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## Faithful Wife

McDean said:


> Just finished reading another post from a wife 'in love' with her husband but who lost the sexual attraction to him, yet believes she would have it for other men. Having read several posts over the past 3+ months in the same vein of thought, what is the scoop? Moving hormonal/medical issues aside, don't we all think about sex with others practically all the time? It's only ironic to me because I've been told my whole life as a male that this would be the 'temptation' I should fight against to keep a healthy marriage and then I come here and find a surprising number of women who feel this way, in some cases act on it....in some cases the wives even say their husbands are good in bed so what gives?


For centuries, men were able to be married yet also pursue relationships on the side, and basically be as sexual as their social position would allow.

Women were stoned to death for the same behavior.

Men wanted to believe that their behavior was natural, but that women were "naturally monogamous".

This is bullsh*t and it always has been.

Since men can't control women anymore (in this country anyway), women are just acting in their natural, human ways, just like men always have.


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## Faithful Wife

Cletus said:


> Look at the recent release of A.M. information if you want a little insight into the proclivity of the genders to seek a little something on the side, at least online. 35 million accounts, almost certainly no more than 100,000 were actual breathing women, and their membership was free.


I don't think this actually says anything about women cheating or not cheating.

It just says something about men and the idea of free, instant gratification.

Women don't seek it out in the same ways and may not be looking for free or instant....they are more likely to be banging their co-worker, someone they actually know first. Not that this makes it ok or nice, but it is the truth.

Having known many women who have cheated (and one who even had an account at AM), I know that usually, they are not going to shop online for this. The one who did have an AM account ended up feeling totally squicked out by it and went a different direction.


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## Faithful Wife

UMP said:


> I was thinking about this the other day. I've been married 24 years and want to bang everything that walks (just about ) I have no problem saying this because my wife knows. I have told her. I assume she feels exactly the same way, give or take.


Is "wants to bang" the same thing as "feels sexual attraction for"?


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## depressedandexhausted

EVG39 said:


> Believe it or not, considerable research is being done around this very issue. Go watch the TED talk given by Esther Perel called "Mating in Captivity". It will begin to answer some of your questions. We as men may not like what researchers are discovering about women on this topic but we are fools to ignore it.


I watched this, very enlightening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2AUat93a8Q


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## McDean

Some good points Faithful Wife, so then is the basic premise that we're all (men and women) more into sex with new mates as opposed to the same mate - thus killing the long-term marriage institution? The point I was trying to convey is that the men purposely chose to stay monogamous despite their urges (whether or not supported by society) and more and more women are not, like it's just their choice and the world should live with it.....last I had heard/read it is just as devastating to wives to be cheated on as well so why are so many doing it to their husbands now too....I'm not disagreeing that a double standard has existed but to my knowledge in the last 30-40 years no one has said it was ok for Men to cheat either.....


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## Cletus

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't think this actually says anything about women cheating or not cheating.
> 
> It just says something about men and the idea of free, instant gratification.
> 
> Women don't seek it out in the same ways and may not be looking for free or instant....they are more likely to be banging their co-worker, someone they actually know first. Not that this makes it ok or nice, but it is the truth.
> 
> Having known many women who have cheated (and one who even had an account at AM), I know that usually, they are not going to shop online for this. The one who did have an AM account ended up feeling totally squicked out by it and went a different direction.


And that says plenty about women and cheating.


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## UMP

Faithful Wife said:


> Is "wants to bang" the same thing as "feels sexual attraction for"?


Yes, "male speak" for sexually attracted to.
At least that's what the guys used to say in high school and college back in the 80's.
Perhaps a bit outdated.


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## Faithful Wife

Cletus said:


> And that says plenty about women and cheating.


I'm pretty sure that in self-reported surveys, men and women admit to it at pretty close to the same percentage. I can find some if you like.

One free website that was a scam doesn't say more than that.

I don't know how reliable this is but....

http://www.infidelityfacts.com/infidelity-statistics.html

Percentage of men who admit to committing infidelity in any relationship they've had: 57%

Percentage of women who admit to committing infidelity in any relationship they've had: 54%


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## Faithful Wife

McDean said:


> Some good points Faithful Wife, so then is the basic premise that we're all (men and women) more into sex with new mates as opposed to the same mate


Yes, the evidence seems to point to this. 

Yet we also know we can choose monogamy and choose to be faithful, as millions of people do this.

The part we got wrong was in assuming women's biology is different than men's (ie: women were monogamous but men were not). That was just what men wanted to make be true so that they could screw around, but they didn't want their women to be able to do so.

But these days, plenty of men do not want to screw around, so it is not something "all men" do, by any means.

I think it was in the past, though.


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## Faithful Wife

UMP said:


> Yes, "male speak" for sexually attracted to.
> At least that's what the guys used to say in high school and college back in the 80's.
> Perhaps a bit outdated.


So when you say this, to a woman it sounds like, literally wants to bang. Yet if you really just meant "saw a hottie, got a partial chubby, but wouldn't actually run her down and try to have sex with her"...it gets confusing.

This happens a lot. Men state they "want to bang anything that moves" but I think they are really just stating that they felt sexual attraction.

I think women feel sexual attraction a lot, but since we don't also say "want to bang that", men might not realize we're saying the same thing.


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## UMP

Faithful Wife said:


> So when you say this, to a woman it sounds like, literally wants to bang. Yet if you really just meant "saw a hottie, got a partial chubby, but wouldn't actually run her down and try to have sex with her"...it gets confusing.
> 
> This happens a lot. Men state they "want to bang anything that moves" but I think they are really just stating that they felt sexual attraction.
> 
> I think women feel sexual attraction a lot, but since we don't also say "want to bang that", men might not realize we're saying the same thing.


In my mind, "want to bang" means I have sexual attraction and given the opportunity and moral ability and freedom, I would actually want to have sex, yes.


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## Cletus

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm pretty sure that in self-reported surveys, men and women admit to it at pretty close to the same percentage. I can find some if you like.


You don't have to convince me. I know the numbers.

Those numbers indicate how many of each gender have been unfaithful. Every person who is unfaithful to his spouse has to find a willing partner. There are two possible reasons the numbers are similar - men and women seek out extramarital affairs with the same frequency, or one of the genders is the rate limiting factor in determining how many people are successful at having affairs, and one gender would do more but for a lack of willing partners. 

It's not intuitively clear what mixture of both possible causes is at work here. All we can glean from this data is 1) the number of successful cheaters and 2)the floor for the number of people who wish to cheat for each gender. We don't know the ceiling. The A.M. data shows that, for that specific variety of extra-marital affair, the ceiling for the two genders is very, very different. Why would I then automatically presume that in every other situation it is completely the same? 

The other flaw in the question of how many of each sex have been unfaithful in *any* relationship *ever* is that it lumps the serial cheater and one-time indiscretion into the same bin, but they are not the same thing.

Psychologists study the reasons spouses cheat. In broad strokes, men cheat for sex, women for emotional connection.


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## always_alone

Cletus said:


> You don't have to convince me. I know the numbers.
> 
> Those numbers indicate how many of each gender have been unfaithful. Every person who is unfaithful to his spouse has to find a willing partner. There are two possible reasons the numbers are similar - men and women seek out extramarital affairs with the same frequency, or one of the genders is the rate limiting factor in determining how many people are successful at having affairs, and one gender would do more but for a lack of willing partners.
> 
> It's not intuitively clear what mixture of both possible causes is at work here. All we can glean from this data is 1) the number of successful cheaters and 2)the floor for the number of people who wish to cheat for each gender. We don't know the ceiling. The A.M. data shows that, for that specific variety of extra-marital affair, the ceiling for the two genders is very, very different. Why would I then automatically presume that in every other situation it is completely the same?
> 
> The other flaw in the question of how many of each sex have been unfaithful in *any* relationship *ever* is that it lumps the serial cheater and one-time indiscretion into the same bin, but they are not the same thing.
> 
> Psychologists study the reasons spouses cheat. In broad strokes, men cheat for sex, women for emotional connection.


Not sure why you assume that one gender is restricted in their cheating ability because of lack of willing partners? :scratchhead: For those who want to cheat, there is no shortage of potential avenues. One need not even find someone who is attracted to them, as said services can always be purchased. There is no shortage of sex to be had anywhere, as far as I can tell. 

According to recent research, men and women are about as likely to cheat as each other, and for remarkably similar reasons. The old trope about how men "just" do it for sex and women do it for love has been turned on its head. Men too cite lack of love and affection as a primary reason, just as women do. And I would think the rather astounding rates of, uh, misattributed paternity would make it pretty clear that plenty of women are just looking for nookie on the side. 

http://www.toddkshackelford.com/downloads/Buss-Shackelford-JRP-1997.pdf

Oh, and a huge number of men's accounts on *that* website were also dummy accounts. Just sayin'


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## Faithful Wife

Cletus said:


> Psychologists study the reasons spouses cheat. In broad strokes, men cheat for sex, women for emotional connection.


Resource?


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## Faithful Wife

The one thing I think the PUA crap manuals actually have correct, is that women want to f*ck like dirty animals, just like men do.

They have figured out that women are not delicate flowers which require mountains of flowers and books full of written love letters before we want to have some raw, gritty sex. 

As far as the older generations go, yes, women had to keep this secret locked down very tightly, and hide behind the need for emotional connection. Similarly, men who needed and wanted an emotional connection were not really "allowed" to be free and open about this, either. They knew they had nowhere to turn and no one to talk to if they "needed more emotionally" from their wives. They were really only allowed to show or feel emotion during sex. So to the outside, it looks like "all they want is sex". 

But we now know there is a lot more emotions and a lot more sexuality in men and women than what the world tried to force upon us in previous generations.

As I said, the PUA culture does understand this fact. They capitalize on it in a skeezy way, but at least they do understand something very relevant about women's sexuality.

We want to get laid.

This doesn't mean we don't also need and want emotional connections. Some women will always require this before they will become sexual. So do some men, however. We are hearing more and more about this from men.


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## Cletus

Faithful Wife said:


> Resource?


Why Women Cheat: Emotional & Physical Reasons

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/love-and-sex-in-the-digital-age/201310/women-who-cheat-relationships

"For instance, a study by Rutgers University biological anthropologist Helen Fisher (link is external) found that of men and women actively cheating on their spouse, 34 percent of the women said they were “happily married” whereas 56 percent of males felt that way. Thus, we see that women are more likely than men to have an affair when they’re not bonded in their primary relationship (and therefore are seeking that bond elsewhere), while men are more likely than women to have an affair despite feeling close to their wife."

http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/publications/PDF/Infidelity%20in%20hetero%20couples.pdf

Previous research has indicated that relationship variables
are particularly important to women’s sexual functioning and
satisfaction (Basson,2005;Byers,2001; Dennerstein, Lehert,Burger, & Guthrie,2005; Ellison,2001; Nicholls,2008;Prinset al.,1993
). The pattern of results from the current study, indicating that women were more likely to engage in infidelity when they were dissatisfied in their relationship or felt incompatible with their partner in terms of sexual values, suggests that the interconnected nature of sexual and relationship factors may be one of the reasons women engage in infidelity. Evidence from a number of studies suggests that women are more likely than men to link sexual and relationship satisfaction (Basson,2005; Ellison,2001;McCabe,1999; McCabe & Cobain,1998;Nicholls,2008). For example, McCabe and Cobain (
1998) found that women who experienced sexual problems allowed these problems to impact their relationship satisfaction but sexual problems and relationship satisfaction were relatively independent
for men. Thus, it may be that if a woman is not satisfied in her cur-
rent relationship, she may be more inclined to seek feelings of con-
nection and closeness elsewhere by engaging in infidelity. Rel-
evant in this context is the finding that, for women, sexual excitation did not predict sexual infidelity. *This seems to further suggest that in women, at least in this sample, sexual infidelity was less strongly sexually motivated or impacted by high levels of sexual
arousability or sexual desire, as compared to men, for whom sexual
excitation was a more important predictor than relationship variables.*

http://psy.baskent.edu.tr/research/infidel.pdf

Six components emerged in the analysis regarding causal attributions to infidelity. Participants found items, “being in a romantic relationship in which partner does not show any involvement”, “being in a romantic relationship in which partner is insensitive”, “thinking that the current relationship is a mistake”, 
and “seeing no future for the relationship” as the major causes of the legitimacy component of infidelity. These items were perceived as more reasonable causes for infidelity if the betrayer was a woman, not a man. It is consistent with evolutionary perspective that the female partner’s infidelity may result from a 
desire for seeking greater commitment (Cann, Magnum, & Wells, 2001). 
...
The second component consists of the items, “being seduced by another person”, “the other person is handsome/beautiful”, “getting an opportunity for cheating”, and “feeling a desire to have a sexual relationship with another person”. These were related to being seduced. It is apparent that men tended to give greater importance to this component as a cause of infidelity than did women. "

http://www.chrisjackson.biz/publications/411.pdf

Gender has been found to relate significantly to measures of infidelity. It has been found that male college students report a significantly greater incidence of prior extradyadic sexual activities than females (Hansen, 1987; Wiederman & Hurd, 1999). The gender difference detected in Hansen’s (1987) study held for all measured
extradyadic activities; that is, erotic kissing, petting, and vaginal intercourse, whereas Wiederman and Hurd (1999) found that the incidence of ‘extradyadic romantic kissing’ was exempt from gender effects. Despite this slight inconsistency, the findings suggest
that, among dating individuals, gender influences engagement in a variety of extradyadic sexual activities.

http://lifespanlearn.org/documents/FisherInfidelity.pdf

In past decades gender has shown a relationship with infidelity. A large body of research with American samples indicated that men have a stronger desire to engage in sexual infidelity (Prins et al., 1993), are more likely to engage in sexual infidelity (Allen & Baucom, 2004; Atkins, Baucom, & Jacobson, 2001), have more extra-dyadic sexual partners (Blumstein & Schwartz, 1983; Wiggins & Lederer, 1984), have more episodes of infidelity, including short or long term affairs and one-night stands (Brand, Markey, Mills, & Hodges, 2007), 
have more physical contact with an extra-dyadic partner (including intercourse) (Wiederman & Hurd, 1999), cite more sexual motivations for infidelity (e.g., Barta & Kiene, 2005), and are less likely to fall in love with an extra-dyadic partner (Glass & Wright, 1985). Husbands are also more suspicious of a wife’s potential sexual infidelity, as well as more likely to discover a wife’s affair 
(Brand et al., 2007) (Blumstein & Schwartz, 1983; 

Women, on the other hand, tend to have a greater emotional connection with the extra-dyadic partner (Spanier & Margolis, 1983), report more intimacy and self-esteem motivations for infidelity, are more likely to feel this behavior is unlike them, and are more concerned about the negative judgments of others when they are unfaithful (Brand et al., 2007). Moreover, among women, the 
strength and frequency of affairs are related to the degree of dissatisfaction with the primary relationship, whereas among men the desire to engage in infidelity is less dependent on the state of the primary partnership (Prins et al., 1993). 

Although women are more distressed about their own infidelity (Van den Eijnden, Buunk, & Bosveld, 2000), Allen and Baucom (2006) report that American women are less concerned about hurting their spouse. Perhaps the lower level of marital satisfaction experienced by women leads them to feel more justified about their infidelity.


Several of these publications note that the respective rates of infidelity gap between the genders is closing, but that statistically significant differences between the sexes for why they cheat still remain. 

Again, as I am forced to mention every time statistics comes up, this does not imply that all women or all men are clearly divisible into to completely non-overlapping populations - only that there _are_ differences.


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## Faithful Wife

The NEWEST date in any of the research above is 2007, and the oldest is 1983, with the most references being between 1999 - 2001. In the rapidly changing world we live in, that's a loooooong time ago. A whole generation of younger people have entered the scene since those studies, and a whole generation has moved into their golden years since then, too.

When I get home, I'll find some more current research for you.

As I said previously, there were reasons why it appeared that women needed the emotional connection in the past. And that older research is reflecting older ideas and the shame shield that was placed on all of us.

I'm not sure if you just don't understand that women do have raw, sexual desire, or what? You argue me on this topic every time. You want men to be the only ones who have a corner on that market?

I don't get it.

But you're wrong anyway. I'm sorry if you've never seen evidence of what I'm saying, and maybe that is why you can't bring yourself to believe it.

Again...I want to say (before any women come bash me) that some women absolutely DO need an emotional connection to be sexual with another person.

But so do some men, I'm sure in roughly the same numbers. That group finds each other.

The group of men and women who can just f*ck with no emotional ties, they find each other, too.

In the past, those men bragged about what they were up to, and those women kept it close to their hearts. But they always shared it with their naughty girlfriends, like me.


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## Faithful Wife

Cletus said:


> The pattern of results from the current study, indicating that *women were more likely to engage in infidelity when they were dissatisfied in their relationship or felt incompatible with their partner in terms of sexual values*, suggests that the interconnected nature of sexual and relationship factors may be one of the reasons women engage in infidelity. *Evidence from a number of studies suggests that women are more likely than men to link sexual and relationship satisfaction* (Basson,2005; Ellison,2001;McCabe,1999; McCabe & Cobain,1998;Nicholls,2008). For example, McCabe and Cobain (
> 1998) *found that women who experienced sexual problems allowed these problems to impact their relationship satisfaction* but sexual problems and relationship satisfaction were relatively independent for men. Thus, it may be that if a woman is not satisfied in her current relationship, she may be more inclined to seek feelings of connection and closeness elsewhere by engaging in infidelity. Relevant in this context is the finding that, for women, sexual excitation did not predict sexual infidelity. This seems to further suggest that in women, at least in this sample, sexual infidelity was less strongly sexually motivated or impacted by high levels of sexual arousability or sexual desire, as compared to men, for whom sexual excitation was a more important predictor than relationship variables.


Considering the bolded parts, I don't get why they came to this conclusion anyway.

Here's the deal: If her husband sucks in bed, a woman is going to be sexually dissatisfied. That's the raw way of saying "felt imcompatible with their partner in terms of sexual values".

There's really nothing proving that women boff other dudes just because they are lacking an EMOTIONAL need or connection, and in fact, it says exactly that above. It says she is dissatisfied SEXUALLY and this is what causes her to feel disconnected. 

Just because a lot of men like sex and like to get off, doesn't mean the sex they have with a woman is good for her.

Women want to have sex they enjoy and get off on. If her husband isn't that guy, she's going to quickly start disliking him and disconnecting from him.


----------



## always_alone

Yup, so it's clear that men cheat more than women! And it doesn't matter if they are happy in their relationships. Good to know!

Also that 100% of them wish to, but oh so sadly aren't able to find partners to do it with.


----------



## Cletus

Faithful Wife said:


> The NEWEST date in any of the research above is 2007, and the oldest is 1983, with the most references being between 1999 - 2001. In the rapidly changing world we live in, that's a loooooong time ago. A whole generation of younger people have entered the scene since those studies, and a whole generation has moved into their golden years since then, too.


And there goes the dismissal. 



> I'm not sure if you just don't understand that women do have raw, sexual desire, or what? You argue me on this topic every time. You want men to be the only ones who have a corner on that market?
> 
> I don't get it.
> 
> But you're wrong anyway. I'm sorry if you've never seen evidence of what I'm saying, and maybe that is why you can't bring yourself to believe it.


With all respect due, you can kiss my ass.

That's about the half-dozenth time you've made that insinuation, and I've let it slide each and every time. Just because I married a sexually repressed woman doesn't mean that I haven't had plenty of exposure to those who are not so rigid. Disagreeing with you is not a de facto mark of being a Neanderthal, or of a lack of experience, or one of a million other pejoratives you'd like to imply. I don't agree with your thesis. End of story. The person who consistently makes this out to be a personal matter is typing at YOUR keyboard.

There is a world where people disagree with you because they think you're overstating your case. There's no requirement here that I STFU when FW has spoken From On High. Since you continue to confound the notion that there are real, measurable differences between the sexes with the idea that women are not sexual, a position I have not taken and will never take, I guess I'm left to the conclusion that either I can't explain it properly or you aren't intellectually capable of grasping it. 

On the chance that it's the former, I don't now, I never have in the past, and I never will in the future argue that there are not plenty of highly sexual women who are motivated by exactly the same things as are the highly sexual men. In have been in a relationship with two of them in my life. What I have consistently argued is that there are measurable POPULATION differences between the genders. POPULATION statistics deal not with individuals, but with things like averages, ranges, distributions, and outliers. They say nothing about any specific individual, who may lie anywhere on the continuum for either gender. But what they emphatically show is that we are not, POPULATION-wise, identical. 

Men ON AVERAGE think about sex more, masturbate more, take more risks to obtain sex, cheat on their spouses to obtain sex more than any other reason, and as gay couples have the most satisfying sex lives of all stable partnerings. And I am NOT wrong about those facts. The only worthwhile argument about those facts is why they are and how they came to be. But they are real, and they are measurable, and you don't get to just special-plead them away nor have your opinion of why they exist to be taken as gospel truth.

Don't like it? I find myself less concerned with that problem all the time. You might want to go back on this thread and see who responded first to whom when throwing around complaints about my dogging your opinion here.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Cletus said:


> What I have consistently argued is that there are measurable POPULATION differences between the genders. POPULATION statistics deal not with individuals, but with things like averages, ranges, distributions, and outliers. They say nothing about any specific individual, who may lie anywhere on the continuum for either gender. But what they emphatically show is that we are not, POPULATION-wise, identical.
> 
> Men ON AVERAGE think about sex more, masturbate more, take more risks to obtain sex, cheat on their spouses to obtain sex more than any other reason, and as gay couples have the most satisfying sex lives of all stable partnerings. And I am NOT wrong about those facts. The only worthwhile argument about those facts is why they are and how they came to be. *But they are real, and they are measurable, and you don't get to just special-plead them away nor have your opinion of why they exist to be taken as gospel truth*.
> 
> Don't like it? I find myself less concerned with that problem all the time.


But in everything you've ever shown as "facts", there are reasons to think that society pressure could be altering said "facts". The "facts" are just lists of research studies...and the most recent, biggest one did actually say "_we don't know if society pressure or the way we conducted these studies or compared them may have impacted the results_".

Is there no room in your world view for the idea that this topic cannot be shown to be "factual" by said studies?

If a few years from now, studies show the old "facts" were wrong and the new "facts" tell us that men and women are equal in their MB habits, their O's, their desire to get laid, the amount they cheat...will you then believe it? 

Even the "facts" you offer right now keep closing in on this type of future, and the more openness and the less shame surrounding sex (especially for women) the more these "facts" shift and are slippery.

Doesn't that slippery-ness insert itself into your world view anywhere? As in, wow, maybe the studies are only reflecting to us what women have been TOLD by society and family to say, instead of what is truly going on. Again...the slipperyness is very telling. If we can see it is in fact changing constantly toward men and women being equal in these issues, then why would we trust those "facts" to just stop and stay stagnant right here the way they are reported right now?

These issues are being "studied" with a heavy eyeful of confirmation bias. As in "Sally is dissatisfied sexually, so we will assume she cheats for emotional reasons", as in the last post of mine where I bolded exactly that point.

But you don't care what I think anyway, and that's ok, too.

Though I gotta say, there's nothing wrong with me questioning the use of VERY OLD "facts" to support your theories. They really are old and new changes occur in this topic every day. If someone else presented old data to back up their argument, would you not question it? I'm pretty sure you would.


----------



## always_alone

Faithful Wife said:


> Considering the bolded parts, I don't get why they came to this conclusion anyway.
> 
> Here's the deal: If her husband sucks in bed, a woman is going to be sexually dissatisfied. That's the raw way of saying "felt imcompatible with their partner in terms of sexual values".


The way I understand it is that men are more likely than women, generally speaking, to report being happy in a relationship. If they have a crappy sex life, they don't let that detract from their relationship or their happiness, they just grab a little nookie on the side to make up for it.

Women, on the other hand, are more likely to report being dissatisfied with the relationship if ther sex life is crappy. And when they are dissatisfied, they look for a little nookie on the side to make themselves happier.

Net result? Pretty much same same. 

In the report I posted earlier, it was personality type, not gender that was more predictive of cheating. Unsurprisingly, narcissism figured quite prominently.


----------



## Faithful Wife

always_alone said:


> Women, on the other hand, are more likely to report being dissatisfied with the relationship if their sex life is crappy. And when they are dissatisfied, they look for a little nookie on the side to make themselves happier.


Right, and wouldn't this tend to indicate that she wants GOOD SEX, and can't get it at home, so she strays? In what way does this show that she needs any emotional connection? Oh I know....It doesn't.


----------



## Cletus

Faithful Wife said:


> Doesn't that slippery-ness insert itself into your world view anywhere?


Of course. I don't care what the answer is, only that it not be prescribed before hand. I'm glad women are finding their inner **** without shame. 

Is there any room in your world view for that fact that men and women being undeniably different at the chromosomal and hormonal level might have an impact on their sexuality?

If the nature vs. nuture debate were easy, it would have been settled long ago. Actually, it is settled - everyone studying it pretty much understands that it's a little bit of both.


----------



## Cletus

Faithful Wife said:


> Right, and wouldn't this tend to indicate that she wants GOOD SEX, and can't get it at home, so she strays? In what way does this show that she needs any emotional connection? Oh I know....It doesn't.


It depends on why she's looking outside the marriage, oh snide one. 

People look outside the marriage for what they aren't getting in the marriage. Perhaps, and I don't forward this as a thesis, but perhaps a woman emotionally detached from her husband goes seeking emotional attachment outside the marriage, finds it, and the sex is a welcome benefit from the emotional entanglement. She didn't go overtly looking for sex, but found it anyway when her other preconditions were met.

The net result is just a many extra-marital sexual unions, but initiated for different reasons. 

And since I will absolutely be mischaracterized for not overtly saying so, plenty of women are looking for action on the side for the sake of the sex too, as I'm sure plenty of men are cheating to find a sympathetic ear.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Cletus said:


> Is there any room in your world view for that fact that men and women being undeniably different at the chromosomal and hormonal level might have an impact on their sexuality?


No.

Male and female animals in the rest of nature have chromosome and hormonal differences as well, yet we never look at them and declare "males want sex more than females". We just note that there are differences due to ovulation times, how it plays out, etc.

So no. I do not think there is any fundamental difference in sexuality between males and females. There are different hormones and different behaviors, just like in the rest of the animal kingdom.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Cletus said:


> It depends on why she's looking outside the marriage, oh snide one.
> 
> People look outside the marriage for what they aren't getting in the marriage. *Perhaps, and I don't forward this as a thesis, but perhaps a woman emotionally detached from her husband goes seeking emotional attachment outside the marriage, finds it, and the sex is a welcome benefit from the emotional entanglement.* She didn't go overtly looking for sex, but found it anyway when her other preconditions were met.
> 
> The net result is just a many extra-marital sexual unions, but initiated for different reasons.


Except the bolded part is NOT what the studies you posted actually said that they found. So .... I don't see why we'd conjecture on that point?

And you know you love me and my snide ass. :x


----------



## Cletus

Faithful Wife said:


> No.


Well then, we're done. 

And I'm the one who is closed-minded.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Here's something we do know about nurture versus nature: Humans, both men and women, can become sexually dysfunctional (sometimes irreversably so) by being shamed or traumatized surrounding their own sexual awakenings.

Until we raise a generation of kids without doing this sh*t to them, then we have no idea how humans behave naturally.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Cletus said:


> Well then, we're done.
> 
> And I'm the one who is closed-minded.


Yeah it makes so much sense that we would be "naturally" completely different than any other mammal. 

Yes I am closed minded to things that make no sense and that there is really no proof for.

Whereas, we DO have proof that we have shamed the natural sexuality out of most women in our society.

And for this reason, as I said above, until we can see what we do without a shame blanket thrown on us, we really have no idea what is natural to us sexually.


----------



## McDean

Some good dialogue and a lot of studies and $hit shared. Here is a thought, why did they get married to him if the sex was so ' dissatisfying'? Could it have been the other things women no longer 'need' so much help with like survival and lifestyle (which by the way is actually quite nice because taking care of an adult child is not that great of a proposition) that lead them to look past the sexual dissatisfaction to get married, perhaps another social pressure scenario? 

How likely is it that the office Romeo actually 'loves you'? Is willing to raise your kids with you, clean toilets with you, carry out all the mundane aspects of life with you? If those things don't matter then stop getting married and stop having kids, stay single and play the field,mnothing wrong with it but asking someone to invest in you and a marriage and they sleeping with copier guy is a waste of everyone's time. And the reverse advice for men too IMOP!


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## ConanHub

McDean said:


> Some good dialogue and a lot of studies and $hit shared. Here is a thought, why did they get married to him if the sex was so ' dissatisfying'? Could it have been the other things women no longer 'need' so much help with like survival and lifestyle (which by the way is actually quite nice because taking care of an adult child is not that great of a proposition) that lead them to look past the sexual dissatisfaction to get married, perhaps another social pressure scenario?
> 
> How likely is it that the office Romeo actually 'loves you'? Is willing to raise your kids with you, clean toilets with you, carry out all the mundane aspects of life with you? If those things don't matter then stop getting married and stop having kids, stay single and play the field,mnothing wrong with it but asking someone to invest in you and a marriage and they sleeping with copier guy is a waste of everyone's time. And the reverse advice for men too IMOP!


I believe the majority of women are satisfied sexually in the beginning of their relationships.

I honestly don't think most women even understand their own inner workings or why things go haywire with them.

I think social pressures combined with a lack of education about this issue has helped fuel many of the problems you are describing.

Women are entering into relationships ignorant, not malevolent, I believe anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## McDean

Could be ConanHub, could be. I am sure most don't marry with negative intent but cheating in every sense of the act is malicious and you could ask your significant other to join you in counseling etc. so many things can happen first to try and fix whatever issue maybe before thinking the mailman is answer....


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## EleGirl

McDean said:


> Some good points Faithful Wife, so then is the basic premise that we're all (men and women) more into sex with new mates as opposed to the same mate - thus killing the long-term marriage institution? The point I was trying to convey is that the men purposely chose to stay monogamous despite their urges (whether or not supported by society) and more and more women are not, like it's just their choice and the world should live with it.....last I had heard/read it is just as devastating to wives to be cheated on as well so why are so many doing it to their husbands now too....I'm not disagreeing that a double standard has existed but to my knowledge in the last 30-40 years no one has said it was ok for Men to cheat either.....


I'm not sure why you think that men chose to be monogamous and more and more women chose not to be.

Today, men cheat at a few percentage points more than women do. So, I just do not see why you are trying to make it sound like men are saintly and women are out cheating and destroying marriage. It seems that both some men and some women are do it at close to the same rates.


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## Faithful Wife

McDean said:


> Some good dialogue and a lot of studies and $hit shared. Here is a thought, why did they get married to him if the sex was so ' dissatisfying'? Could it have been the other things women no longer 'need' so much help with like survival and lifestyle (which by the way is actually quite nice because taking care of an adult child is not that great of a proposition) that lead them to look past the sexual dissatisfaction to get married, perhaps another social pressure scenario?


Maybe it is more a matter of women needing and wanting variety, which is completely understood and accepted about men...but for some reason women are expected to "only" want this one man.



McDean said:


> How likely is it that the office Romeo actually 'loves you'? Is willing to raise your kids with you, clean toilets with you, carry out all the mundane aspects of life with you? If those things don't matter then stop getting married and stop having kids, stay single and play the field,mnothing wrong with it but asking someone to invest in you and a marriage and they sleeping with copier guy is a waste of everyone's time. And the reverse advice for men too IMOP!


I'm glad you put that last sentence on there.

However as to boffing the office Romeo even though it is unlikely that he "loves you" and will not raise your kids....yet she f*cks him anyway. Doesn't this in itself show that women are horn dogs who want SEX, not emotional or financial support?

I am in no way saying that cheating is good or fair. I'm just pointing out that the old way of thinking about the differences between genders when it comes to sex are off base. If you look at it through a lens where the genders are far more similar than different, things like this make sense.


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## EleGirl

McDean said:


> Some good dialogue and a lot of studies and $hit shared. Here is a thought, why did they get married to him if the sex was so ' dissatisfying'? Could it have been the other things women no longer 'need' so much help with like survival and lifestyle (which by the way is actually quite nice because taking care of an adult child is not that great of a proposition) that lead them to look past the sexual dissatisfaction to get married, perhaps another social pressure scenario?


In the past women (decent women) did not have sex before marriage. So the women had no idea what sex would be like. Plus, for a few hundred years (if not a few thousand) women were told that women do not like sex. They were told that women do not have orgasms, or enjoy it. Instead sex was something that wives did to service their husbands. The medical books in the Victorian era went into great detail on this topic. If a woman did have orgasms she was considered to have a mental illness called Hysteria. That is how far men went to ensure that women did not know that they could/should enjoy sex. Women were taught this to keep them under control sexually. Of course men were not kept under control sexually.. it was only women who needed to be controlled.

Another way that society has controlled women’s ability to enjoy sex is FGM. For thousands of years, in some, parts of the word, the societies cut off the outer sexual organs of women and sew them up so that there is only a small hole. The purpose is to make sure that the women cannot enjoy sex. To make sure that it actually hurts. That way a woman would not dare to enjoy sex and/or cheat.

Today in Western countries woman can finally once again start to know that we are sexual beings who really do like sex. What a concept, huh?

I’m not sure why you think that women today are looking past bad sex and marrying guys they have bad sex with. Often times the bad sex comes after marriage… sometimes months later, other times years later.

For example when my ex and I dated we had a great sex life. A few years into marriage he was the one who did not want sex often, or who developed all kinds of hang ups. Eventually he did not want sex at all. Now I could have had an affair. I did contemplate it. But decided to just end the marriage. I’m not staying is a sexless marriage. 

There are a fair number of women who come on TAM married to men who want little to no sex. Often times they had a good sex life before marriage, but after marriage that guy turned away and either prefers porn to a live woman or just does not want any kind of sex. These women very often end up divorcing. Some have affairs on their way out.


McDean said:


> How likely is it that the office Romeo actually 'loves you'? Is willing to raise your kids with you, clean toilets with you, carry out all the mundane aspects of life with you? If those things don't matter then stop getting married and stop having kids, stay single and play the field,mnothing wrong with it but asking someone to invest in you and a marriage and they sleeping with copier guy is a waste of everyone's time. And the reverse advice for men too IMOP!


Yes the same goes for men as men cheat a bit more than women do. 

I get the impression that you are far more disturbed by the fact that some women cheat. Why is that?


----------



## EleGirl

McDean said:


> It's only ironic to me because I've been told my whole life as a male that this would be the 'temptation' I should fight against to keep a healthy marriage and *then I come here and find a surprising number of women who feel this way, in some cases act on it*....in some cases the wives even say their husbands are good in bed so what gives?


One thing to keep in mind is that TAM is not representative of society at large. 

Many more betrayed husbands hang out on TAM. Women tend to not post for long on TAM.... they leave. We can find many more sites on the internet that have much larger populations of women who have been cheated on.

TAM is a self selected site that seems to cater more to men who wives have cheated. So of course there are more such stories here.


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## EleGirl

ConanHub said:


> I believe the majority of women are satisfied sexually in the beginning of their relationships.
> 
> I honestly don't think most women even understand their own inner workings or why things go haywire with them.
> 
> I think social pressures combined with a lack of education about this issue has helped fuel many of the problems you are describing.
> 
> Women are entering into relationships ignorant, not malevolent, I believe anyway.


Men cheat a few percentage points more than women do. 

Would you say the same thing about men?


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## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> Men cheat a few percentage points more than women do.
> 
> Would you say the same thing about men?


I wasn't referring to cheating in particular though it is often a result with women who lack understanding and education about their own sexuality.

I've seen, in general, more women sucker punched by a lack of understanding their own sexuality than men.

Could be anecdotal but I don't believe so. Faithful Wife and I are in lockstep agreement about social pressures and a lack of education concerning female sexuality. I think you and I actually agree on the subject as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

Personal said:


> Who cares if the office romeo loves you, women like men don't actually require love to have sex with someone.
> 
> Of all of the women I have had sex with, not one of them including my wife was in love with me when they first had sex with me.
> 
> How could any of them have loved me when almost all them had sex with me within minutes of meeting me, all the way through to the third date if they were taking it slow?
> 
> One doesn't need to share cleaning toilets in order to enjoy very lustful sex.


Yup. I think women might be more pressured to lie about their motives for having sex.
Women are just horny sometimes. Nothing more complex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife

I know (and have experienced it) that sex can get "in love" feelings flowing, even if they aren't real. People can get confused by those chemicals. The strong desire to have sex with a specific person can feel like you are in love with them.

But not always. I haven't myself, but have had female friends who basically hate f*cked someone. As in, had great sex with a guy they hated as a person, but just used his body for sex for the moment.

I think these "in love" versus "just sex" confusions are true for both men and women.

I have heard a few guys say they know from experience that great sex tends to make a woman fall in love with them. Again, I'd say that love wasn't necessarily real, but it felt real at the time. And I've also heard guys saying that they felt madly in love with a girl just because they wanted sex with her so bad...only to find that after sex, meh, not so much in love feelings. 

However, being in love for real and having great sex with the object of your love is THE BOMB...from experience, and from what I've read or heard most people say.


----------



## ConanHub

Faithful Wife said:


> I know (and have experienced it) that sex can get "in love" feelings flowing, even if they aren't real. People can get confused by those chemicals. The strong desire to have sex with a specific person can feel like you are in love with them.
> 
> But not always. I haven't myself, but have had female friends who basically hate f*cked someone. As in, had great sex with a guy they hated as a person, but just used his body for sex for the moment.
> 
> I think these "in love" versus "just sex" confusions are true for both men and women.
> 
> I have heard a few guys say they know from experience that great sex tends to make a woman fall in love with them. Again, I'd say that love wasn't necessarily real, but it felt real at the time.
> 
> However, being in love for real and having great sex with the object of your love is THE BOMB...from experience, and from what I've read or heard most people say.


The most explosive, killer sex I ever had, before years of practice with my wife, was with one of the stupidest, most wretched excuses for humanity that I have ever come across.

We only had sex twice and both times were epic.

She is the only woman I have climaxed twice in without interruption of PIV.

I certainly didn't love her and she didn't love anybody but the sex was off the charts!

I definitely understand when women say that so and so was a real stud in the sack but they want nothing more to do with him and truly love and desire the man they are with. Even if he isn't as epic at sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

ConanHub said:


> I wasn't referring to cheating in particular though it is often a result with women who lack understanding and education about their own sexuality.
> 
> I've seen, in general, more women sucker punched by a lack of understanding their own sexuality than men.
> 
> Could be anecdotal but I don't believe so. Faithful Wife and I are in lockstep agreement about social pressures and a lack of education concerning female sexuality. I think you and I actually agree on the subject as well.


I agree that a lot of women are still taught so much that is not true that they are just confused. But I also think that men are taught a lot of nonsense as well.

The difference is that men are taught that their sexuality is all good. Women are taught that their sexuality is bad, something to deny.


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## EleGirl

I believe that there is a very strong indicator that women have sex drives and desire just that is the same as what men experience.

What is that indicator? The very huge effort put forth by societies to control women's sexual expression and even ability to enjoy sex.

Teaching women that they do not orgasm. That women do not like sex. That for women sex is dirty. Good girls do not .............[fill in the long list]............... That any woman who enjoys sex is a slvt, [email protected], .... [fill in this long list too]..........

FGM for the express purpose of killing any ability to enjoy sex.

Women requiring male relative escorts anytime they out not in their home.

Etc, etc, etc,

From that video posted earlier.. there are still 9 countries that execute women for fornication and/or adultery and being victims of rape. But in those same societies there are all kinds of built in accommodations for men to have all the sex partners they want.... polygamy, easy divorce (to replace a wife), short term marriage (as little as 1 hour), marriage to girls as young as 9 years old, sexual rights to slaves (yes many of these countries still have slavery).

If women did not have equally strong sex drives, there would be no need for such strong social pressure and customs to keep women in line.


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## Faithful Wife

Also Ele, there is little said about men who are LD due to CSA, shaming, or other sexual trauma. Men can be shamed or traumatized out of having a sex drive. To me, having heard lots of stories about men like this, it seems obvious that any time you disrupt the natural drive maturation process in either gender, a person can become sexually dysfunctional. Also, I think women (moms) do a lot of the shaming that causes men to have problems in their future sex lives.

Just as with women, shaming and trauma do not always steal a man's sex drive or make him dysfunctional. But many times it does, or at least permanently alters his natural drive to the point of some kind of dysfunction. The whole madonna/***** thing causes dysfunction in men in a mirror-like way to the **** shaming causing dysfunction in women.

I think men have been harmed by the stereo types about "men want sex more" just as much as women have.

I always told both of my kids (one boy, one girl) that sex is something almost everyone wants in their lives, it is natural, normal and a happy thing, and very pleasurable. I never said that men want it more, so instead of that stereo type they grew up knowing that "everyone" wants it a lot!

Just that simple message...that everyone wants it and that neither gender wants it more...grew into them being very balanced and sexually secure adults.


----------



## McDean

EleGirl said:


> In the past women (decent women) did not have sex before marriage. So the women had no idea what sex would be like. Plus, for a few hundred years (if not a few thousand) women were told that women do not like sex. They were told that women do not have orgasms, or enjoy it. Instead sex was something that wives did to service their husbands. The medical books in the Victorian era went into great detail on this topic. If a woman did have orgasms she was considered to have a mental illness called Hysteria. That is how far men went to ensure that women did not know that they could/should enjoy sex. Women were taught this to keep them under control sexually. Of course men were not kept under control sexually.. it was only women who needed to be controlled.
> 
> Another way that society has controlled women’s ability to enjoy sex is FGM. For thousands of years, in some, parts of the word, the societies cut off the outer sexual organs of women and sew them up so that there is only a small hole. The purpose is to make sure that the women cannot enjoy sex. To make sure that it actually hurts. That way a woman would not dare to enjoy sex and/or cheat.
> 
> Today in Western countries woman can finally once again start to know that we are sexual beings who really do like sex. What a concept, huh?
> 
> I’m not sure why you think that women today are looking past bad sex and marrying guys they have bad sex with. Often times the bad sex comes after marriage… sometimes months later, other times years later.
> 
> For example when my ex and I dated we had a great sex life. A few years into marriage he was the one who did not want sex often, or who developed all kinds of hang ups. Eventually he did not want sex at all. Now I could have had an affair. I did contemplate it. But decided to just end the marriage. I’m not staying is a sexless marriage.
> 
> There are a fair number of women who come on TAM married to men who want little to no sex. Often times they had a good sex life before marriage, but after marriage that guy turned away and either prefers porn to a live woman or just does not want any kind of sex. These women very often end up divorcing. Some have affairs on their way out.
> 
> 
> Yes the same goes for men as men cheat a bit more than women do.
> 
> I get the impression that you are far more disturbed by the fact that some women cheat. Why is that?


Really have enjoyed the reading, it wasn't at all my intent to flip the coin on women but instead create an on-going thread discussion and figured the 'female' angle would drive more discussion on this particular topic and it has.

First: never had any doubt women were horn dogs like men, too many one night stands in my younger years to not believe that to be true.

Second: Men do all the things I've put on women in my comments, sadly in either case male or female someone 'nice, loyal and caring' often pays the price though in many cases they contributed to the problem...

Third: In most of the posts no one felt a poor sex life in marriage justified cheating but can be offered as a possible explanation.

Fourth: agree that women like men prefer variety and honestly this makes a greater case for long long term marriages going the way of the dinosaurs...but that is another thread...

Fifth: Perhaps the only angst in the discussion for me is that I did give women more credit for control in this area but clearly that is already extinct.

Sixth: in the push to be seen as equals is this what women really want? To be seen as just as sexual as men, while it may have been more accepted in men in our societies they still refer to us as bastards, dogs, thinking with the wrong head...last I checked those are not flattering, especially to any male who doesn't behave this way and has an above average IQ....being seen as equal in this space is like hoping you win the tallest midget contest....

Seventh: Much of what has been shared in this threads and others comes down to the following:
A) Men and women are darn near equal in their pursuit of lust
B) Men and women are darn near equal in the rates at which they cheat
C) Most rational adult men and women think cheating is harmful and the act exercises poor control and judgement
D) A+B+C = stay single, bring in the era of co-parenting without wedding rings, short term stints with several partners instead of one, full disclosure that I may love jumping in the sack with you now but 2years from now probably not so much.....

Maybe these will kick off more discussion lol.....


----------



## AliceA

I was pondering marriage today and the meaning behind it with all the discussion about same-sex marriage lately and seeing some bumper sticker that marriage was "God's creation, not Man's" or something like that. I don't actually know when the idea of a life long union between two people started, but I imagine it was long before it was termed "marriage". Now it's an idea we're all raised with, the idea that we find a mate we will spend our lives with, have children, and hopefully die content. Whether it's called a marriage or not, many will continue to search for that one person they can spend their lives with. I think that many people yearn for stability and consistency. They want to get out of the rat race at some point because it's exhausting and lonely. Many feel the urge to procreate and provide a stable home for children.

I think that a healthy sexual appetite is normal, but if this dictates our desires in life (where we all just end up like your example in 7D), we're less evolved than many animals, and considering the size of our brains, that seems ridiculous. I don't think that most people are out searching for the next orgasm. If that was all it was about they wouldn't need another person; especially women as we have all we need in the local sex shop. They are searching for a connection.


----------



## McDean

Good points Breeze, like your avatar too by the way! I would like to believe we are more evolved than animals as well though a 50% cheat rate and 50% divorce rate have me doubting it's completely true. Or, perhaps in our own evolution Marriage served a purpose when our life spans were 40-50 years and now we need to evolve to a new model? In the end, pursuing the next orgasm is a basal instinct only.....


----------



## AliceA

Thanks 

Humans are very complex. There are so many ways to screw up a child's brain before they even hit adulthood that sometimes I think it's amazing that anyone manages to work through their issues in order to stay together, yet a lot of people do. I was at a conference the other day where the speaker said a person today is hit with more news in one day than their grandparent heard in their entire lifetime. We're bombarded on a daily basis by external factors, dealing with various childhood issues, and living with the knowledge that at any point when it all gets too hard we can give up. Add into that a huge and probably unprecedented exposure to other people through workplaces and social media and I see it as no surprise that those statistics are the result.


----------



## naiveonedave

So if we are so wired to be cheaters, why is the outcome of finding out about unfaithfulness so earth shattering and traumatic?


----------



## always_alone

McDean said:


> Sixth: in the push to be seen as equals is this what women really want? To be seen as just as sexual as men, while it may have been more accepted in men in our societies they still refer to us as bastards, dogs, thinking with the wrong head...last I checked those are not flattering, especially to any male who doesn't behave this way and has an above average IQ....being seen as equal in this space is like hoping you win the tallest midget contest....


There's a pretty big difference between saying one is sexual and one is stupid. I don't think too may people aspire to thinking with their little head, it just happens some time. With some people more than others.

Thinking with your big head doesn"t make you less sexual, it makes you smarter in your actions and choices. And likely a whole lot better in bed, IMHO, because that's where imagination and knowledge come together.


----------



## McDean

naiveonedave said:


> So if we are so wired to be cheaters, why is the outcome of finding out about unfaithfulness so earth shattering and traumatic?


Been pondering this one as well. Could be that we're socialized (both men and women) growing up that the commitment is an ultimate expression of 'true love' or could be that we're trusting and feel we had an agreement on fidelity with someone else so are shocked when it's broken - same reaction I believe you would find if we were friends and you signed a contract with me and then i up and broke it when you never thought that would happen. Perhaps in a chaotic world people naturally gravitate towards something to ground their lives, might religion or it might be a relationship - how would you feel if your favorite priest got caught with young boys, after you had know and worked communed with him for 20 years? Similar I imagine, shocked for sure.....

How would you feel if you were not committed to a friend with benefits and found out he/she hooked up with another? Maybe disappointed, but if truly not connected then probably no biggy...it's the breach of trust/commitment I think, if you don't have that to begin with you care less then about the outcome...


----------



## always_alone

naiveonedave said:


> So if we are so wired to be cheaters, why is the outcome of finding out about unfaithfulness so earth shattering and traumatic?


They say that of all the mammals, humans are the most varied in terms of mating strategies. We aren't wired to be cheaters, we fall on a spectrum ranging from simple promiscuity to lifetime monogamy.

And different cultures have different attitudes towards cheating, not everyone finds it earth-shattering. I just watched a documentary about this desert tribe where, when there was actual water, people would gather together and have a big celebration, part of which was a ritualized competition as to which couples could sleep with someone different. They interviewed a man who was competing (through dance and costume to be the sexiest) and his wife. Both were hoping he would win because they both had their eye on someone. He did not, and they went home together, but I don't think either would've been upset if they hadn't.

What I think makes cheating earth-shattering is that it is often one-sided betrayal. That destroys relationships because it erodes trust and connection.


----------



## always_alone

McDean said:


> D) A+B+C = stay single, bring in the era of co-parenting without wedding rings, short term stints with several partners instead of one, full disclosure that I may love jumping in the sack with you now but 2years from now probably not so much.....


Not sure I agree with your math here. In some ways, I can see how it adds up. Truth is that I never said any vows for lifetime commitment, and that my SO and I could pretty easily part ways should we so choose. But we've been together for 17 years. Just because there are risks involved in being with someone, just because the numbers are scary for long-term commitment, doesn't mean there aren't some serious rewards for forging deep and long term connections.

We live in a disposable society, where narcissism reigns, and even our nearest and dearest are easily replaced. I'm not convinced, though, that this is actually to our benefit and well-being. Maybe in some ways, but certainly not in others.

Also, children complicate matters greatly. It used to take a village to raise them, now just two parents shoulder all of it --or just one, when the other parent turns out to be a deadbeat. That's an awful lot of work to sign up for.


----------



## McDean

I like the cut of your jib Always! Life for us in the industrial countries has become too "disposable", disposable diapers, disposable electronics, disposable spouse...why work at anything when you can get a trophy for showing up!?!


----------



## naiveonedave

McDean said:


> Been pondering this one as well. Could be that we're socialized (both men and women) growing up that the commitment is an ultimate expression of 'true love' or could be that we're trusting and feel we had an agreement on fidelity with someone else so are shocked when it's broken - same reaction I believe you would find if we were friends and you signed a contract with me and then i up and broke it when you never thought that would happen. Perhaps in a chaotic world people naturally gravitate towards something to ground their lives, might religion or it might be a relationship - how would you feel if your favorite priest got caught with young boys, after you had know and worked communed with him for 20 years? Similar I imagine, shocked for sure.....
> 
> How would you feel if you were not committed to a friend with benefits and found out he/she hooked up with another? Maybe disappointed, but if truly not connected then probably no biggy...it's the breach of trust/commitment I think, if you don't have that to begin with you care less then about the outcome...


I just don't see this as totally learned behavior. Maybe partially, but the utter destruction it causes in most societies is so huge.

The issue I see is that often FWB eventually becomes more emotional, at least on one side.


----------



## naiveonedave

always_alone said:


> They say that of all the mammals, humans are the most varied in terms of mating strategies. We aren't wired to be cheaters, we fall on a spectrum ranging from simple promiscuity to lifetime monogamy.
> 
> And different cultures have different attitudes towards cheating, not everyone finds it earth-shattering. I just watched a documentary about this desert tribe where, when there was actual water, people would gather together and have a big celebration, part of which was a ritualized competition as to which couples could sleep with someone different. They interviewed a man who was competing (through dance and costume to be the sexiest) and his wife. Both were hoping he would win because they both had their eye on someone. He did not, and they went home together, but I don't think either would've been upset if they hadn't.
> 
> What I think makes cheating earth-shattering is that it is often one-sided betrayal. That destroys relationships because it erodes trust and connection.


while I agree w/what you have written, it seems 'most' of the human population is much closer to monogamy. It also seems, to me at least, like the destruction infidelity causes is totally learned behavior, more like we are partially wired that way. 

Interesting topic, to be sure.


----------



## EleGirl

McDean said:


> First: never had any doubt women were horn dogs like men, too many one night stands in my younger years to not believe that to be true.


So you were promiscuous in your younger years? So what’s your opinion of the women you were with? From what you wrote in the rest of your points, it sounds like you look down on them and think badly of them. Is that true? After all they were being as sexual as men.



McDean said:


> Fifth: Perhaps the only angst in the discussion for me is that I did give women more credit for control in this area but clearly that is already extinct.


Women are, of course no better and now worse than men. In the past, part of the myth of women not being very sexual was that women held the moral torch for a society. As long as women, on the whole, were the moral pillars, men could be immoral and still feel good about themselves and their society. Thus their cheating was not so bad, after all men were supposedly driven to have sex with anything that moved.. how could they possibly control that urge. But keep in mind that when a heterosexual man cheats, there’s a woman involve with in. In past generations, married men cheated more with single women and women those horrible ‘lose women’ like prostitutes, bar maids, etc.


McDean said:


> Sixth: in the push to be seen as equals is this what women really want? To be seen as just as sexual as men, while it may have been more accepted in men in our societies they still refer to us as bastards, dogs, thinking with the wrong head...last I checked those are not flattering, especially to any male who doesn't behave this way and has an above average IQ....being seen as equal in this space is like hoping you win the tallest midget contest....


Let’s break this down.


McDean said:


> Sixth: in the push to be seen as equals is this what women really want?


 Let’s not assume that there is one voice for all women? Ok? Can we start with the fact that women are individuals. I’m a woman. Do I want equality with men. You bet I do. But I have never cheated nor would I ever. Why have I never cheated? Because I’m not a person who would lie and sneak around. If I’m going to do something, I’m not going to sneak around. I’ll divorce, and I did. Then I can do what I want in the light of day. The vast majority of men and women do not cheat. So please do not paint all women as cheaters.


McDean said:


> Sixth: in the push to be seen as equals is this what women really want? To be seen as just as sexual as men, while it may have been more accepted in men in our societies they still refer to us as bastards, dogs, thinking with the wrong head...last I checked those are not flattering, especially to any male who doesn't behave this way and has an above average IQ....being seen as equal in this space is like hoping you win the tallest midget contest....


Yes, equality means being equal in sexuality too. Why wouldn’t a woman want to be just as sexual as men? It’s the nature of women to just as sexual if we are not repressed, shames, and turned into sexually fringed creatures as most women were for many centuries.

Why do you assume that being sexually equal means being a female version of “bastards, dogs, etc.?” Men have the societal free will to act sexually any way they want. Some are promiscuous, some are not. It’s the same for women. Some women will be promiscuous, some will not. You do know that there have always been promiscuous women, right? Again, who do you think all those men were and are cheating with?

Yes sometimes promiscuous men are called names like ‘dogs’, etc. More often they are applauded… they are ‘real men’. They are cheered on. Look at how many male roles there are in movies where the man has sex with one woman after another. James Bond comes to mind. I’ve never heard anyone call James Bond a ‘dog’, ‘bastard’, or anything but a man’s man. What every man wants to be.

Turn James Bond into Jane Bond and what would be the discussion? She’s a pig, a slvt, a [email protected], and on and on.

Each person gets to decide how they want to live their life. It harms women and men to pretend that women are somehow devoid of sexual desire. Look at all the men on here who have wives with such repressed sexuality that they cannot even have a decent sex life. So many men what to marry a virgin (or near virgin) bride.. a woman who is not sexual at all. Then they marry her and think that somehow she will be able to just drop decades of sexual shaming and repression and give them porn star sex. It seldom happens when a person’s sexuality has been damaged to that point.


McDean said:


> Seventh: Much of what has been shared in this threads and others comes down to the following:
> A) Men and women are darn near equal in their pursuit of lust
> B) Men and women are darn near equal in the rates at which they cheat
> C) Most rational adult men and women think cheating is harmful and the act exercises poor control and judgement


 D) A+B+C = stay single, bring in the era of co-parenting without wedding rings, short term stints with several partners instead of one, full disclosure that I may love jumping in the sack with you now but 2years from now probably not so much.....

Maybe these will kick off more discussion lol.....[/QUOTE]
I think that your conclusion is wrong.

Most women are not out scr3wing everything that they can find. Most settle down and marry. The divorce rate is not the reported 50%. It’s lower. The highest divorce rate is in young couples where the women is under 25, the man under 30, with little education and living in poverty.
When a woman is 25 with a college degree the divorce rate drops to about 25%. The older the couple is and the more educated they care the more the divorce rate drops.
All through history there has been a class of very poor people who live chaotic lives. In those groups, promiscuity, adultery, etc. has always been very common. Why should it be any different now? Life is very hard for people who do not have the resources to maintain a life style that gives them and their children stability.

Marriage is still a good, solid ‘institution’. Sure many are choosing to live together and not marry. But to some that’s just a formality.

What is hurting marriage are people who have a misconception that the vast majority of marriages end in divorce and so the first thing people should do is jump to divorce or never marry at all. The anti-marriage hype in our society is so loud people cannot even see that there are a lot of good, stable marriages and that most marriages never end in divorce.


----------



## Buddy400

always_alone said:


> Not sure why you assume that one gender is restricted in their cheating ability because of lack of willing partners? :scratchhead: For those who want to cheat, there is no shortage of potential avenues. One need not even find someone who is attracted to them, as said services can always be purchased. There is no shortage of sex to be had anywhere, as far as I can tell.
> 
> According to recent research, men and women are about as likely to cheat as each other, and for remarkably similar reasons. The old trope about how men "just" do it for sex and women do it for love has been turned on its head. Men too cite lack of love and affection as a primary reason, just as women do. And I would think the rather astounding rates of, uh, misattributed paternity would make it pretty clear that plenty of women are just looking for nookie on the side.
> 
> http://www.toddkshackelford.com/downloads/Buss-Shackelford-JRP-1997.pdf
> 
> Oh, and a huge number of men's accounts on *that* website were also dummy accounts. Just sayin'


It's always fascinating to see a select group of women who steadfastly insist that women share every bad attribute previously attributed to men only. And, they're not equally bad for different, better reasons (emotional connection vs. raw sexual desire); they are equally bad for exactly the same bad reasons. 

Next we'll be hearing AA insist that women really want to commit violence to exactly the same degree that men do. They're just not there yet due to the historical societal pressures against women revealing their "inner Hulk".


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> However as to boffing the office Romeo even though it is unlikely that he "loves you" and will not raise your kids....yet she f*cks him anyway. *Doesn't this in itself show that women are horn dogs who want SEX, not emotional or financial support?
> *


This seems to be your primary thesis.

Is being a Horn Dog better than wanting emotional support?


----------



## Buddy400

ConanHub said:


> I definitely understand when women say that so and so was a real stud in the sack but they want nothing more to do with him and truly love and desire the man they are with. Even if he isn't as epic at sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How would a woman feel if her husband told her that he'd had epic sex with other women who were better in bed but he truly loved and desired her?


----------



## Buddy400

EleGirl said:


> Women are taught that their sexuality is bad, something to deny.


Can you show me a time recently where this was taught anywhere in mainstream society?


----------



## ConanHub

Buddy400 said:


> It's always fascinating to see a select group of women who steadfastly insist that women share every bad attribute previously attributed to men only. And, they're not equally bad for different, better reasons (emotional connection vs. raw sexual desire); they are equally bad for exactly the same bad reasons.
> 
> Next we'll be hearing AA insist that women really want to commit violence to exactly the same degree that men do. They're just not there yet due to the historical societal pressures against women revealing their "inner Hulk".


People tend to attack those weaker than themselves.

A very high number of children are harmed by women. I have actually been assaulted more often by a greater number of females than males.

The attacks were all mostly negligible except for one that left scars on my genitals that I have to this day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Buddy400 said:


> How would a woman feel if her husband told her that he'd had epic sex with other women who were better in bed but he truly loved and desired her?


My wife knows my sexual history.

She knows about the belly dancer, a cancer on the face of humanity, and through effort has eclipsed her many times over in the bedroom.

I do believe work and effort pay off in this arena.

The belly dancer was a very naturally sexual volcano.

Mrs. Conan was far cooler in the bedroom at the beginning of our relationship.

She has made very good improvements over the years.

Me too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Buddy400

EleGirl said:


> Marriage is still a good, solid ‘institution’. Sure many are choosing to live together and not marry. But to some that’s just a formality.
> 
> What is hurting marriage are people who have a misconception that the vast majority of marriages end in divorce and so the first thing people should do is jump to divorce or never marry at all. The anti-marriage hype in our society is so loud people cannot even see that there are a lot of good, stable marriages and that most marriages never end in divorce.


If one takes a long view of happiness, I'm certain that marriage is the way to go. Sure, at any particular moment you could be having epic sex with the copier boy or girl, but that's the short term view. You restrain yourself from brief pleasure because you know that it would hurt your long term happiness. You don't eat the marsh mellow now because you know that if you do the right thing, you'll have a whole bag of marsh mellows in the future.

It's not that unusual to see an older couple truly in love. At least one of them probably had an opportunity with the copy person, but they didn't take advantage of it because they were doing something more important.

If you enter into a marriage thoughtfully and with both spouses dedicated to putting in the effort to make it work, there's and excellent chance of being happy and fulfilled.

If you enter a marriage thinking that neither of you should have to do anything you'd rather not, then it's probably not going to work.

I don't see how having a string of short relationships or FWB (and the bouts of loneliness that are sure to exist) and coordinating the 50/50 custody of the kids you've had with various partners is a state of affairs anyone really wants in the end. 

And, from what I've heard, sex is even better when it's with someone you love.

EDIT: Curious. I knew, KNEW, something was wrong with "marsh mellow" (especially when the text editor didn't like it as one word). Only now, an hour later, while rereading it is it clear that it's "marshmallow".


----------



## Buddy400

ConanHub said:


> My wife knows my sexual history.
> 
> She knows about the belly dancer, a cancer on the face of humanity, and through effort has eclipsed her many times over in the bedroom.
> 
> I do believe work and effort pay off in this arena.
> 
> The belly dancer was a very naturally sexual volcano.
> 
> Mrs. Conan was far cooler in the bedroom at the beginning of our relationship.
> 
> She has made very good improvements over the years.
> 
> Me too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Although you're the one that quoted, it really wasn't directed at you. Doesn't seem like you've got any problems!

It's just that I've heard women not understanding why such a statement might hurt a husband and wanted to point out that probably wouldn't feel too good for a wife either.


----------



## UMP

ConanHub said:


> People tend to attack those weaker than themselves.
> 
> A very high number of children are harmed by women. I have actually been assaulted more often by a greater number of females than males.
> 
> The attacks were all mostly negligible except for one that left scars on my genitals that I have to this day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm just trying to imagine the first conversation about that "scar" with your wife.

"Yeah honey, she was really upset that I broke up with her, that's why I always wear a cup in public."

"Oh, that's my battle scar from all the porn I shot in college."

"Gay bars can sometimes be problematic."

"They say "no teeth" for a reason."

"She said "not on the face" and she apparently meant what she said."

"I was planning on covering that up with a Lorena Bobbitt tattoo."


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> This seems to be your primary thesis.
> 
> Is being a Horn Dog better than wanting emotional support?


Personally, I can enjoy both, concurrently or separately. 

In my current marriage, I am madly in love with a sex god who rocks my world and also emotionally supports me more deeply than anyone else ever has.


----------



## ConanHub

Buddy400 said:


> Although you're the one that quoted, it really wasn't directed at you. Doesn't seem like you've got any problems!
> 
> It's just that I've heard women not understanding why such a statement might hurt a husband and wanted to point out that probably wouldn't feel too good for a wife either.


I think it might be tied to a true statement you have already made. For most, sex is really better with someone you love.

I think that loving connection is far more important to the women who have had their brains fvcked out by an a-hole as compared with less epic sex but with a man they deeply cherish and feel loved by.

I think they don't view the sexual performance as even close to as important as love.

I feel the same but I understand the ego blow that can come from this understanding.

Sexual prowess is a very big ego issue with most men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

McDean said:


> Sixth: in the push to be seen as equals is this what women really want? *To be seen as just as sexual as men*, while it may have been more accepted in men in our societies they still refer to us as bastards, dogs, thinking with the wrong head...last I checked those are not flattering, especially to any male who doesn't behave this way and has an above average IQ....being seen as equal in this space is like hoping you win the tallest midget contest....


Not to be "seen" as just as sexual as men, but for it to be accepted that we ARE just as sexual as men.

As for men being "pigs", "dogs", "bastards"....personally I have never looked at mens sexuality as being the "reason" they may be a pig, dog, or bastard. Personality and character decide those things, which is also true for women. I admire and respect anyone of any gender who has a high level of self-awareness and respect for others when using their sexuality. 

Sexuality in and of itself is an innocent and lovely part of our mammalian lives. People are what make it perverse.


----------



## WandaJ

It sounds again, that some men are still scared of women and their sexuality. They should be enjoying it, instead of fearing it...


----------



## Buddy400

ConanHub said:


> I think they don't view the sexual performance as even close to as important as love._Posted via Mobile Device_


Keep that thought to yourself. FW might hear.


----------



## Buddy400

WandaJ said:


> It sounds again, that some men are still scared of women and their sexuality. They should be enjoying it, instead of fearing it...


Which men exactly do you think are "still scared of women and their sexuality"

Not me. I'm enjoying it (I'd be enjoying it more if I were young and single).

I've seen several women hear claim this. Why is it so important to some women to think men are "scared of women and their sexuality".


----------



## WandaJ

Buddy400 said:


> Which men exactly do you think are "still scared of women and their sexuality"
> 
> Not me. I'm enjoying it (I'd be enjoying it more if I were young and single).
> 
> I've seen several women hear claim this. Why is it so important to some women to think men are "scared of women and their sexuality".


It is not important to me to think of men as scared. But some of them are, and blame women's sexuality for the moral collapse of the modern society.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> Keep that thought to yourself. FW might hear.


Do you just selectively read my posts, or what?

I don't know why you are so offended by anything I've said on this thread, or why you are implying that I don't think love is important.

My original comments were about *cheaters* and why they might cheat, and in the course of that I was discussing how women's sexuality is not different than men's in this respect.

Your dismissive comments toward me are exactly the type of comments that make a man sound like he is afraid of women's sexuality. For when I merely talk about the truth of it, you try to shame me and imply I've said things that I haven't or mean things that I don't. Apparently because I dared to say women like to have sex as much as men do.


----------



## always_alone

Buddy400 said:


> It's always fascinating to see a select group of women who steadfastly insist that women share every bad attribute previously attributed to men only. And, they're not equally bad for different, better reasons (emotional connection vs. raw sexual desire); they are equally bad for exactly the same bad reasons.
> 
> Next we'll be hearing AA insist that women really want to commit violence to exactly the same degree that men do. They're just not there yet due to the historical societal pressures against women revealing their "inner Hulk".


Did you even look at the article I posted? Not only was it a peer-reviewed study, not just my "insistence", it was written by two men.

It's always fascinating to see a select group of people who absolutely refuse to even consider evidence, and remain totally wedded to their biases and preconceptions, and then point fingers at everyone who disagrees with them as just "insisting" on their opinions because they want to be equally bad.


----------



## always_alone

ConanHub said:


> I think they don't view the sexual performance as even close to as important as love.



I think it depends on what they are looking for at the time.


----------



## always_alone

WandaJ said:


> It is not important to me to think of men as scared. But some of them are, and blame women's sexuality for the moral collapse of the modern society.


I don't think it's important to any woman to think of men as scared.

In fact, I'm betting that most of wished men weren't scared. But sadly, even though men love to brag about how much they love sex, how great they are at sex, how into sex they are, there are still a whole lot of them bent on shaming women for having or liking sex, or outright dismissing women's sexual nature.

It's almost as if they have to believe that the sex is just for them, just because of them and their wondrous prowess. Anything outside of that is a threat.

And yet they will still complain of lack of partners. :scratchhead:


----------



## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> I think it depends on what they are looking for at the time.


I'm talking about women who are with a man they truly love and want to spend the rest of their lives together.

Many women, and men I'm sure, have some jack ass in their past that was just a dynamo in the sack.

The subject seems to come up more often when men feel insecure about it and their women don't put so much importance on the issue because having sex with the man of their heart is overall far more satisfying to them than their experience with a stud who was an a-hole.

I have never climaxed for any woman, Mrs. Conan included, like I did with the belly dancer.

It simply isn't nearly as important to me as climaxing with Mrs. Conan and our overall sexual performance has outdone everything else I have ever experienced.

I know, because I have heard it a lot, that many men are disturbed if their wives had an outrageous sexual encounter in their past that was with someone that just sucked and they didn't want to be with.

I just understand that what was more important to many of these women was having sex with someone they loved and loved them in return.

Besides. Most sex goals can be reached with effort and enthusiasm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

ConanHub said:


> I know, because I have heard it a lot, that many men are disturbed if their wives had an outrageous sexual encounter in their past that was with someone that just sucked and they didn't want to be with.


Meanwhile, the same man probably had hotties in his past who blew his mind. But somehow his wife is a wh*re and he is not, and he can't get over that she did this....even though it was before they met and even though he had previous hotties, too.

This is part of the sexual shaming of women that happens.

But not all men are like that. Like your example, you did have hotties in the past but none of that means anything compared to your love for your wife. And many women don't think twice about their previous lovers (regardless of good sex or not) and are totally in love with their husbands.

Some women do have a hard time accepting that their man had great lovers in the past, too. Others don't.


----------



## always_alone

ConanHub said:


> Besides. Most sex goals can be reached with effort and enthusiasm.


Exactly. Sexual prowess does matter. And if a person has a bit of humility and a willingness to learn, they can become all that much more skilled at it.

Then you get both good sex and love, and that is a fantastic combo.

But each on their own can be good too, depending on what you are most interested in.


----------



## always_alone

Faithful Wife said:


> And many women don't think twice about their previous lovers (regardless of good sex or not) and are totally in love with their husbands.


And some had some pretty great sex with men that they also loved (or liked a whole lot) in the past, and they will spend time on the internet talking about how great that past lover was.


----------



## Faithful Wife

They do? Where's that juicy thread, I want to read the drama.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> Do you just selectively read my posts, or what?
> 
> I don't know why you are so offended by anything I've said on this thread, or why you are implying that I don't think love is important.
> 
> My original comments were about *cheaters* and why they might cheat, and in the course of that I was discussing how women's sexuality is not different than men's in this respect.
> 
> Your dismissive comments toward me are exactly the type of comments that make a man sound like he is afraid of women's sexuality. For when I merely talk about the truth of it, you try to shame me and imply I've said things that I haven't or mean things that I don't. Apparently because I dared to say women like to have sex as much as men do.


I assumed you'd be upset with anyone claiming that any sexual differences exist between the genders.


----------



## Buddy400

always_alone said:


> I don't think it's important to any woman to think of men as scared.
> 
> In fact, I'm betting that most of wished men weren't scared. But sadly, even though men love to brag about how much they love sex, how great they are at sex, how into sex they are, there are still a whole lot of them bent on shaming women for having or liking sex, or outright dismissing women's sexual nature.
> 
> It's almost as if they have to believe that the sex is just for them, just because of them and their wondrous prowess. Anything outside of that is a threat.
> 
> And yet they will still complain of lack of partners. :scratchhead:


I think you're talking about men posting on other sites. 

Why assume men here are like them?


----------



## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> And some had some pretty great sex with men that they also loved (or liked a whole lot) in the past, and they will spend time on the internet talking about how great that past lover was.


That sounds a little risky depending on the situation. On a forum like this, not too dangerous.

Could you elaborate. Gotta admit, I am curious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Buddy400

WandaJ said:


> It is not important to me to think of men as scared. But some of them are, and blame women's sexuality for the moral collapse of the modern society.


Which ones? Anyone posting here?


----------



## always_alone

Faithful Wife said:


> They do? Where's that juicy thread, I want to read the drama.


I haven't seen it on TAM. I think only the men here are allowed to admit that they have had past partners who were super sexy and they thought the world of.


----------



## Buddy400

always_alone said:


> And some had some pretty great sex with men that they also loved (or liked a whole lot) in the past, and they will spend time on the internet talking about how great that past lover was.


I used to tell a story, often in my wife's presence, about my ex-wife and my wife:

The only good thing about my ex-wife was that she was a blast to go to Las Vegas with. My wife (who is better at everything else than my ex) was not fun to go to Las Vegas with (she wanted to go to bed at 10). I meant no harm and thought it was understood that being fun to go to Las Vegas with was pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

It made my wife feel bad to know that I had such a great time doing something with my ex that I didn't enjoy doing with her. She didn't complain, it just made her feel bad; knowing that she couldn't do that for me

I stopped telling that story.

I felt like an ass.


----------



## Buddy400

always_alone said:


> I haven't seen it on TAM. I think only the men here are allowed to admit that they have had past partners who were super sexy and they thought the world of.


Which men here have told their wives that they had previous partners that they thought were super sexy and that they thought the world of? Which men here agreed that that was an okay thing to do?


----------



## always_alone

ConanHub said:


> That sounds a little risky depending on the situation. On a forum like this, not too dangerous.
> 
> Could you elaborate. Gotta admit, I am curious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Risky? Why? (I have my own take on why, but am curious to hear your view)

Does it surprise you to think women may have had good sexual experiences with men who are not a-holes? 

I see men here wax eloquent on past lovers all the time.


----------



## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> Risky? Why? (I have my own take on why, but am curious to hear your view)
> 
> Does it surprise you to think women may have had good sexual experiences with men who are not a-holes?
> 
> I see men here wax eloquent on past lovers all the time.


On an anonymous marriage forum, probably not a big deal.

It is , or should be, pretty safe to share experiences here.

On other internet outlets with less anonymity, it could be damaging to their current relationship if they have told there current partner less than they are disclosing.

Mrs. Conan knows everything about me and I have nothing to hide.

Sharing on this forum for me is fairly safe.

Even though I have full disclosure with my wife if I posted some of what I have on TAM on some other forum and was recognized, Mrs. Conan might become quite angry that I had allowed private information to leak to people we know.

If you were referring to TAM then I think that is pretty safe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

ConanHub said:


> On an anonymous marriage forum, probably not a big deal.
> 
> It is , or should be, pretty safe to share experiences here.


Should be, perhaps. But TAM is not what I would call a safe zone. 

What I have learned from being here is that I have no value whatsoever for any man, and that all that I am is pretty much all that is despised. So, obviously, despite my general mouthiness, there's a whole host of things I would never share here, and I am not at all surprised by the fact that lots of women are intimidated to post here and often disappear before they are ever known.

If the only thing you (one) is worried about is being caught, then yes, anonymity will solve that problem. But (many) people also do not want to be judged, and they hope that maybe they can find at least some who will have a sense of understanding of what they might be feeling.

In those places is where you (one) would stand to gain the most insight.


----------



## always_alone

Buddy400 said:


> Which men here have told their wives that they had previous partners that they thought were super sexy and that they thought the world of? Which men here agreed that that was an okay thing to do?


I didn't say they told their wives. I said they posted and talked about it. Of course you (one) never says what they really think to their spouse, right? Because then they would actually know the truth of how their partner really feels.

(*Not* endorsing this POV, just observing it)


----------



## PieceOfSky

always_alone said:


> There is no shortage of sex to be had anywhere, as far as I can tell.




Taken out of context, and placed near my marital bed, this amuses me 






> Men too cite lack of love and affection as a primary reason, just as women do.




It seems unlikely to me I would ever make that mistake (it is possible of course), but lack of love and affection is the only reason I could imagine falling for.


----------



## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> Should be, perhaps. But TAM is not what I would call a safe zone.
> 
> What I have learned from being here is that I have no value whatsoever for any man, and that all that I am is pretty much all that is despised. So, obviously, despite my general mouthiness, there's a whole host of things I would never share here, and I am not at all surprised by the fact that lots of women are intimidated to post here and often disappear before they are ever known.
> 
> If the only thing you (one) is worried about is being caught, then yes, anonymity will solve that problem. But (many) people also do not want to be judged, and they hope that maybe they can find at least some who will have a sense of understanding of what they might be feeling.
> 
> In those places is where you (one) would stand to gain the most insight.


Yeah. LOL! That is why I added "should" be safe.

I do appreciate the insight I have gained from posters on this site. Some POVs are disturbing and I have commented but I think that is fair. I have pissed a fair amount of people off as well with candor.

I have been pissed at the candor of others. I'm kind of thick skinned for the most part though. If I got pasted about a topic I was sensitive about it would be pretty rough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## McDean

Great thoughtful response Elle! I have little to refute your points. Good discussion and of course men and women are different but not necessarily as much as we were taught growing up. I don't mind promiscuity in anyone unless they use it harm others. 

In the imbalance of societal expectations on sexuality I would offer this: women are told they should be ashamed of their sexuality but men are told we're responsible for women's ability to orgasm. Neither is fair or right and in the end neither is a good excuse to cheat ( there is no good excuse frankly to cheat IMOP). It's the common problem with groups, they speak to group think instead of each individual. 

The basics premise is that promiscuity has no place in marriage as an institution. Women and/or men making excuses to stray are doing just that, making excuses. 

And yes several of you have asked why men wouldn't love women being more free in this aspect and I can tell you with 100 % assurance I love it....sadly I am married still and shall watch from the sidelines.


----------



## Buddy400

always_alone said:


> I didn't say they told their wives. I said they posted and talked about it. Of course* you (one)* never says what they really think to their spouse, right? Because then they would actually know the truth of how their partner really feels.
> 
> (*Not* endorsing this POV, just observing it)


I encourage you to join my team. 

I've decided to run the risk of seeming pretentious for the sake of clarity. It's the best choice one can make.


----------



## Buddy400

always_alone said:


> I didn't say they told their wives. I said they posted and talked about it. Of course you (one) never says what they really think to their spouse, right? Because then they would actually know the truth of how their partner really feels.
> 
> (*Not* endorsing this POV, just observing it)


I don't doubt that many members of both genders have had better lovers (at least in a technical sense) than their current SO. 

It's only a problem if they tell their SO about it (or tell it to others that might let their SO know about it).

I think it would hurt a SO of either gender to specifically hear this.

So most guys don't want to hear about a wife's former lover being better at sex than he is. So what? I don't think any man or woman particularly likes hearing that their spouse had a former partner that was better at something (that they value) than they are.


----------



## EleGirl

Buddy400 said:


> I don't doubt that many members of both genders have had better lovers (at least in a technical sense) than their current SO.
> 
> It's only a problem if they tell their SO about it (or tell it to others that might let their SO know about it).
> 
> I think it would hurt a SO of either gender to specifically hear this.
> 
> So most guys don't want to hear about a wife's former lover being better at sex than he is. So what? I don't think any man or woman particularly likes hearing that their spouse had a former partner that was better at something (that they value) than they are.


Women are told pretty clearly that they are not enough for a man, not even their husband. We are taught that men are biologically driven to spread their seed.

This is why we have porn... because it's a man's right to at least use other women in a visual sense, sexually.. because their wife is never enough.

If we bring up the fact that a lot of women feel that porn is a form of men expressing that their wife is not enough, that there are plenty of other women who are better looking and more sexually arousing than they... .women are told to shut up. After all it's a man's right. 

The point I'm making is not that I'm anti porn.. but I'm equating porn usage by men to women looking at men who are not their husbands in a sexual way... It's not ok to tell her husband that she had hot sex with some guy. But it's ok for her husband to spend hours drooling over beautiful, painted, fake women having fake hot sex? I see a distorted (perhaps double) standard in this.

A point to ponder....


----------



## EleGirl

This brings something else to mind that shows the difference in how male and female sexuality is seen, by men.

When I was in the Army:

---------------------------
The men had playboy pinups in the barracks. They were allowed to have them. Some of the women in our unit had playgirl magazines. So we put up the pinups of naked men.. yes with everything showing.. just like the pinups of women in the men's barracks.

So we had an inspection.. by the same cadre who inspected the men's barracks. When they saw the male pinups they became furious. They called us pigs, slvts, and a lot of other filthy names. They made some of the women take them down. Then the entire barracks was put on detention. We lost our weekend R&R. 

The men? It was apparently ok for them to have pinups all over the barracks of women with their legs spread wide open playing with themselves. 

(This is slvt shaming and shaming women for being sexual beings.)
---------------------------
I’ve been around military bases my entire life. Starting at about age 12 or so, any time a formation of male soldiers passes by a female, they would sing cadence songs that very often contained strong sexual innuendos, and made comments about any woman or girl they passed. 
So when I was in the Army, the other women noticed this. When information we all started doing exactly the same thing back to the men. Once again we were met with being called filthy names by the drill sergeants, officers, etc. But they not only never complained about the men doing the same, they usually joined in and even encouraged it. They said that it built moral when men did it. But if women did it.. we were pigs, etc etc.
------------------------------------ 
The last year of my enlistment I was stationed at the Pentagon. There was a Staff Sargent in our command. He had a private office decorated with pinups from the Army magazine.

Every month the magazine had a pin-up on the back cover. It was most often of a good looking woman, in a sexy pose with some skimpy nightly. In the 4 years that I was in the Army, there were two months with a ‘male pinup’. The first time this happened it was of a young guy, dressed like the was college student at Yale.. with the college outfit, the sweater, the sports jacket thrown over his shoulder. The only flesh showing were his hands and his face. Then in the last year there was the 2nd ever male pinup. This time it was some male football player in sweat pants and a t-shirt. But his t-shirt was torn so that the bottom part was missing. His mid drift was exposed. 

So back to this Staff Sargent. He must have had 20 or so of those pinups under the glass on his desk and on the wall… the ones with women who were all but naked. So I put the pin-up of the football player with his belly button showing. OMG… apparently it was scandalous of me to up of a picture of a guy with his belly button showing. The more flack to caught for it, the longer is stayed up. Many of the guy came up to my desk to complain about the picture on my wall. So I took each one to the Staff Sargent’s office and told them to take a look. They all already knew that the staff Sargent had those pinups in his office. But apparently men’s belly buttons are far more scandalous then almost completely naked women. LOL


Someone challenged me to show that women are shamed about their sexuality. Well, my last 2 posts have just a few examples that I can come up with. If I have time to find more, I'll post them .


----------



## AliceA

Buddy400 said:


> Can you show me a time recently where this was taught anywhere in mainstream society?


From my point of view growing up, the young men who were promiscuous were raised on a pedestal by their peers, but if a girl was promiscuous she was labelled the town bicycle and called a slvt behind her back by the same guys who had slept with her.

Now regardless of their reasons for having sex with multiple partners on a regular basis, the fact is that every young woman I knew grew up seeing females hated and loathed by males for having sex, and males congratulated and adored. Tell me that's not fcked up.

Oh, and where would they learn this attitude if not in the society they were brought up in?


----------



## Cletus

EleGirl said:


> Women are told pretty clearly that they are not enough for a man, not even their husband.
> We are taught that men are biologically driven to spread their seed.


And what if they are? Are women better served by being taught the truth, which is always a prerequisite to understanding and mitigation, or should we teach women a fantasy of the idealized man that they never seem to be able to find in sufficient number, largely because hardly any of them can meet the definition?

We should be teaching both men AND women that the species is not very good at monogamy. That if you want a reasonable but never guaranteed shot at a happy and stable relationship, you'd better understand that your partner will find others sexually attractive during the course of your union, and that there are things you can do to frustrate or reduce that problem. 

Every man I know - each and every last one of them - thinks about sex multiple times a day with a strange attractive woman. It doesn't matter how hot our spouse is. It doesn't matter how happy we are. There's not much we can do about that, it's just wired in to the machinery. If you think your spouse is different, I've got bad news for you. So yes, it that's how you want to define it, our mates are not good enough for us in the sense that we lose all interest in every other woman on the planet. 

But our mates can be good enough for us to _forego _every other woman on the planet. Knowledge is power, and women need to know this about the men they choose if they are to be fully informed. As, of course, the men should understand about their mates.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Cletus said:


> And what if they are? Are women better served by being taught the truth, which is always a prerequisite to understanding and mitigation, or should we teach women a fantasy of the idealized man that they never seem to be able to find in sufficient number, largely because hardly any of them can meet the definition?
> 
> We should be teaching both men AND women that the species is not very good at monogamy. That if you want a reasonable but never guaranteed shot at a happy and stable relationship, you'd better understand that your partner will find others sexually attractive during the course of your union, and that there are things you can do to frustrate or reduce that problem.


Understand this is true. And ACCEPT it as ok. My two cents.



> Every man I know - each and every last one of them - thinks about sex multiple times a day with a strange attractive woman. It doesn't matter how hot our spouse is. It doesn't matter how happy we are. There's not much we can do about that, it's just wired in to the machinery. If you think your spouse is different, I've got bad news for you. So yes, it that's how you want to define it, our mates are not good enough for us in the sense that we lose all interest in every other woman on the planet.
> 
> But our mates can be good enough for us to _forego _every other woman on the planet. Knowledge is power, and women need to know this about the men they choose if they are to be fully informed. As, of course, the men should understand about their mates.


----------



## always_alone

Cletus said:


> Every man I know - each and every last one of them - thinks about sex multiple times a day with a strange attractive woman. It doesn't matter how hot our spouse is. It doesn't matter how happy we are. There's not much we can do about that, it's just wired in to the machinery. If you think your spouse is different, I've got bad news for you. So yes, it that's how you want to define it, our mates are not good enough for us in the sense that we lose all interest in every other woman on the planet.


Indeed. And it would be helpful for all of those who keep insisting that their female spouses are different ...because [insert gender stereotype here] ... well, I got some bad news ...


----------



## Buddy400

EleGirl said:


> When I was in the Army:
> 
> ---------------------------
> *The men had playboy pinups in the barracks.* They were allowed to have them. Some of the women in our unit had playgirl magazines. So we put up the pinups of naked men.. yes with everything showing.. just like the pinups of women in the men's barracks.
> 
> So we had an inspection.. by the same cadre who inspected the men's barracks. When they saw the male pinups they became furious. They called us pigs, slvts, and a lot of other filthy names. They made some of the women take them down. Then the entire barracks was put on detention. We lost our weekend R&R.
> 
> The men? It was apparently ok for them to have pinups all over the barracks of women with their legs spread wide open playing with themselves.
> 
> (This is slvt shaming and shaming women for being sexual beings.)


How long ago was this?

Things are no longer as they were in the 1970's.

Do you think it's allowed for men to have Playboy Pinups n the walls in today's army? If not, how long as it been since this was allowed?


----------



## Cletus

always_alone said:


> Indeed. And it would be helpful for all of those who keep insisting that their female spouses are different ...because [insert gender stereotype here] ... well, I got some bad news ...


You're too smart to make this reductionist argument, and you also know that I have never said this.

What I have said is that if you were to measure by whatever means appropriate the frequency and strength of this innate sexual urging, there would be a real, perhaps small, but real difference between the male and female populations as a whole. We would see a bimodal distribution partially attributable to gender. Typical Male Spouse A might feel this way 15 times a day, his Typical Female Spouse B a dozen. 

I don't really want to resurrect that argument, as it seems to go nowhere, but I will correct every mischaracterization of it.


----------



## Buddy400

EleGirl said:


> It's not ok to tell her husband that she had hot sex with some guy. But it's ok for her husband to spend hours drooling over beautiful, painted, fake women having fake hot sex? I see a distorted (perhaps double) standard in this.
> 
> A point to ponder....


This comparison is so wrong.

So let's say the husband watches the cooking channel a lot; watching superb chefs preparing excellent meals, better than his wife can make.

He often cooks gourmet dinners for his wife. She goes on and on about how the meals an old boyfriend made for her were the best ever.

Really? You're saying that these are the same thing? 

A man watching porn is the same as a woman telling the man she loves that the best sex she ever had was with another man?

It's not that we insist that women be sexless. It's not because we are fearful of women's sexuality. It's not because we want to keep women in their place.

It's just that we'd rather someone that we care about not be needlessly cruel in saying things only to make us feel bad.


----------



## Buddy400

breeze said:


> From my point of view growing up, the young men who were promiscuous were raised on a pedestal by their peers, but if a girl was promiscuous she was labelled the town bicycle and called a slvt behind her back by the same guys who had slept with her.
> 
> Now regardless of their reasons for having sex with multiple partners on a regular basis, the fact is that every young woman I knew grew up seeing females hated and loathed by males for having sex, and males congratulated and adored. Tell me that's not fcked up.
> 
> Oh, and where would they learn this attitude if not in the society they were brought up in?


Have you "grown up" recently?


----------



## always_alone

Cletus said:


> You're too smart to make this reductionist argument, and you also know that I have never said this.


Wasn't it you who said, right here on this very thread, that women aren't really after sex, it is just a "byproduct" of wanting an emotional connection?

The OP of this thread is all about expressing surprise that women might be thinking about sex with people other than their spouses, spouses that they've lost attraction to, or are not so terribly interested in. The source of this surprise is, IMHO, a set of assumptions about what women are like, what we think about, what motivates us, about "bimodal distributions."

We are told time and time again to just get used to the fact that our men are always thinking about sex with others. Get over it, they say. Of course he wants every other woman ... he's a man! All I'm saying is not to be so surprised that women are also thinking these same things. Sex isn't just a "byproduct" of something else we're looking for. 

I don't really want to hash out the same arguments again and again either. I just think it's sad that you keep insisting on the "bimodal distribution" no matter how many studies I post showing the very real, very peer-reviewed, and very thorough challenges to this.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Cletus said:


> Typical Male Spouse A might feel this way 15 times a day, his Typical Female Spouse B a dozen.


A problem occurs in society when men are told that female spouse B thinks about sex zero times during a day. Then when they meet a woman who refuses to follow that made up story, they consider her a sl*t. I'm not talking about you here, I'm sure you are fine with reality. But many men have been sold a picture that is so skewed about women's sexuality, what they think about, what they want, and how sexual they are, that they are shocked and disillusioned to find out the truth. That's the very tone of the first post on this thread. "WHAT??? WOMEN are cheating as much as MEN are, even though they have a loving spouse?!??!" Even though the same poster likely never found it odd to know that men cheat in high numbers.

Thankfully this is changing. But the cost of the old way to some men is feeling disillusioned, angry, threatened, and bitter....and the cost to some women is being sl*t shamed.

Again, I'm not speaking of you...but many men really do want to believe they have the market cornered on being highly sexual, even in their minds.

I'm also not implying you would disagree here, I just quoted your post to make the point.


----------



## Buddy400

Cletus said:


> And what if they are? Are women better served by being taught the truth, which is always a prerequisite to understanding and mitigation, or should we teach women a fantasy of the idealized man that they never seem to be able to find in sufficient number, largely because hardly any of them can meet the definition?
> 
> We should be teaching both men AND women that the species is not very good at monogamy. That if you want a reasonable but never guaranteed shot at a happy and stable relationship, you'd better understand that your partner will find others sexually attractive during the course of your union, and that there are things you can do to frustrate or reduce that problem.
> 
> Every man I know - each and every last one of them - thinks about sex multiple times a day with a strange attractive woman. It doesn't matter how hot our spouse is. It doesn't matter how happy we are. There's not much we can do about that, it's just wired in to the machinery. If you think your spouse is different, I've got bad news for you. So yes, it that's how you want to define it, our mates are not good enough for us in the sense that we lose all interest in every other woman on the planet.
> 
> But our mates can be good enough for us to _forego _every other woman on the planet. Knowledge is power, and women need to know this about the men they choose if they are to be fully informed. As, of course, the men should understand about their mates.


And the best part is that there is another group of women here that will go to any lengths necessary to assure us that women's sexuality is exactly the same as men's. You'd think they'd end up arguing with each other, but that never seems to happen.


----------



## Cletus

always_alone said:


> Wasn't it you who said, right here on this very thread, that women aren't really after sex, it is just a "byproduct" of wanting an emotional connection?


I said that studies have shown, and I linked several, that this is more of a driver for women than it is for men in having extramarital affairs. As self-reported by the men and women having the affairs. For f*cks sake, what better evidence do you need than the direct statements of the participants? 

Why is no one on this forum capable of having anything more nuanced than a black-and-white completely reductionist argument? If one population places more value on one aspect of an affair than does the other, in the aggregate, it doesn't imply that every individual in the population is so motivated. I know that. You know I know that. Yet you keep painting my position using that brush. 

Getting a little tired of being your personal straw-man.


----------



## always_alone

Faithful Wife said:


> Again, I'm not speaking of you...but many men really do want to believe they have the market cornered on being highly sexual, even in their minds.


IMO, this is about jealousy and possessiveness. They exact same sort of jealousy and possessiveness that women are just supposed to "get over" because "men are like that".

So, really, the only response is "get over it" because "women are like that". 

Because the double standard is just too hypocritical and annoying.


----------



## always_alone

Cletus said:


> I said that studies have shown, and I linked several, that this is more of a driver for women than it is for men in having extramarital affairs. As self-reported by the men and women having the affairs. For f*cks sake, what better evidence do you need than the direct statements of the participants?
> 
> Why is no one on this forum capable of having anything more nuanced than a black-and-white completely reductionist argument? If one population places more value on one aspect of an affair than does the other, in the aggregate, it doesn't imply that every individual in the population is so motivated. I know that. You know I know that. Yet you keep painting my position using that brush.
> 
> Getting a little tired of being your personal straw-man.


err, but Cletus, we did discuss the nuances of what you posted, and it would seem that the studies you posted didn't claim what you said they did. And as I recall, you had no response to that. 

So, you know, you can point fingers at me for being the reductionist one, but IME, you are no more willing to engage on the finer details. 

ETA: Indeed, in response to the link I posted, you gave us a little story about how women just want emotional connection and sex is a by-product, whereas men "really" want sex -- when what I posted was a peer-reviewed study showing how that wasn't true at all.


----------



## Cletus

always_alone said:


> err, but Cletus, we did discuss the nuances of what you posted, and it would seem that the studies you posted didn't claim what you said they did. And as I recall, you had no response to that.


I stopped following the argument as soon as the statement was made (albeit not by you) that there was no possibility of evidence ever being presented that showed any measure of sexual differences between men and women.

I'm not going to continue to debate with someone who is that intellectually dishonest. I'm as tired of the topic as are you. I'm sorry I jumped in to try to correct your mischaracterization of my position.

You may put any words into my mouth that you wish going forward. I am a little curious how women's self-reporting was argued away out of existence, but not so curious as to continue in a pointless endeavor.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Cletus said:


> I stopped following the argument as soon as the statement was made (albeit not by you) *that there was no possibility of evidence ever being presented that showed any measure of sexual differences between men and women*.


Actually your question was this:

"Is there any room in your world view for that fact that men and women being undeniably different at the chromosomal and hormonal level might have an impact on their sexuality?"

For which my answer was this:

"No. Male and female animals in the rest of nature have chromosome and hormonal differences as well, yet we never look at them and declare "males want sex more than females". We just note that there are differences due to ovulation times, how it plays out, etc."


It's kinda funny how you feel you're so misrepresented, presented with straw men, etc...but you don't see yourself doing it.

You may put any words into my mouth that you wish going forward as well. But that doesn't mean you understand me or what my actual position is, which is obvious based on your misrepresentation of me, all the while you are claiming some kind of innocent victim stance because of others misrepresenting you.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> Actually your question was this:
> 
> "Is there any room in your world view for that fact that men and women being undeniably different at the chromosomal and hormonal level might have an impact on their sexuality?"
> 
> For which my answer was this:
> 
> "No. Male and female animals in the rest of nature have chromosome and hormonal differences as well, yet we never look at them and declare "males want sex more than females". We just note that there are differences due to ovulation times, how it plays out, etc."
> 
> 
> It's kinda funny how you feel you're so misrepresented, presented with straw men, etc...but you don't see yourself doing it.
> 
> You may put any words into my mouth that you wish going forward as well. But that doesn't mean you understand me or what my actual position is, which is obvious based on your misrepresentation of me, all the while you are claiming some kind of innocent victim stance because of others misrepresenting you.


That looks to me like what Cletus said.

Weird how communication between some people just seems to be impossible.


----------



## AliceA

Buddy400 said:


> Have you "grown up" recently?


I'm still very much a part of this planet, as are the men and women my age, so our experiences definitely still play a part in our society.


----------



## always_alone

Cletus said:


> I stopped following the argument as soon as the statement was made (albeit not by you) that there was no possibility of evidence ever being presented that showed any measure of sexual differences between men and women.
> 
> I'm not going to continue to debate with someone who is that intellectually dishonest. I'm as tired of the topic as are you. I'm sorry I jumped in to try to correct your mischaracterization of my position.
> 
> You may put any words into my mouth that you wish going forward. I am a little curious how women's self-reporting was argued away out of existence, but not so curious as to continue in a pointless endeavor.


Oh, my mistake. I thought that you were interested in the topic and still following it. I didn't realize that you had already completely disengaged, no longer caring about what the evidence actually shows.

Me, I find the subject quite interesting, and am more than happy to engage on unpacking the similarities and differences between the genders. Unfortunately, though, the evidence I post that supports what I'm trying to say is always ignored and I'm summarily dismissed as some sort of reductionist, straw-manning crank who just wants to "insist" that women are equal. Because gender stereotype. 

Oh well.


----------



## always_alone

Cletus said:


> I am a little curious how women's self-reporting was argued away out of existence, but not so curious as to continue in a pointless endeavor.


Let me explain this for you. Even if you don't care, I do, enough at any rate, and possibly someone else might too.

1) Of the studies you posted, women's self reports didn't actually claim what you said they did. Only that they were more likely to cheat due to "marital dissatisfaction" that was admittedly (also self reports) due to a poor sex life. And so, of course, the question then becomes "what on earth is the difference between a man who cheats because he wants sex and a woman who cheats because she isn't happy with her marital sex life.

2) One of the studies you posted about why women cheat had a related article about why men cheat. Interestingly, the lists were remarkably similar, showing that men have very many reasons for cheating beyond "like sex", and they were a lot like women's reasons. Again raising the question: where exactly is this bimodal difference we're all supposed to believe in?

3) One of the studies you posted was quite similar to the one I posted and showed pretty clearly that it is personality traits, not gender, that indicates propensity to cheat. So again: where's this bimodal difference?

4) A well-known fact in the social sciences is that people will respond to surveys in a way where they will tend to give the answers they are expected to. And how a question is phrased can skew this even more. This issue was pointed out directly in one of the studies you posted, and that there are huge methodological weaknesses in those studies reporting significant gender differences. This study also clearly indicated that more recent research was showing the picture to be quite different.

So again: where is this bimodal male-female distribution that you are advocating for? We see it ever so clearly in strength distributions and height distributions. But it just doesn't seem to exist when it comes to a whole host of sexual issues.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> Weird how communication between some people just seems to be impossible.


Actually I think Cletus and I understand each other's position, even though we both accuse the other of misrepresenting us.

He thinks men are more sexual than women on average, and I disagree. I don't think either of us are confused on each other's main point there. The communication issues lie in what we each consider the misrepresentation of the other's specific points.


----------



## McDean

It's still somewhat funny to me that we somewhat agree that men and women mimic each other sexually, that cheating is crummy regardless of this possibility, that marriage is hard due to this possibility and requires work and effort to stay 'true'.....so then, are we all fighting our natures by trying to stay with one sex partner for 40years? When at our base we want many? Funny question - is there any number of partners for men and women that is just too many lol?


----------



## Faithful Wife

McDean said:


> ...so then, are we all fighting our natures by trying to stay with one sex partner for 40years?


Some people would say, yes.

But most people don't just have one partner in a lifetime anyway. Most people have between 4 - 10 partners in a lifetime (depending on the study) and the younger generation will likely have a higher average than this.

As far as wanting to bone everything you see...I honestly don't believe people would even if they could. I think we have our ability to make discerned decisions, and even while they would probably bone more than they do, I don't think they would bone "everyone they see" if it was actually possible to do this without shame, fear, etc.

Still, it would likely be quite a few partners.


----------



## McDean

Faithful Wife said:


> Some people would say, yes.
> 
> But most people don't just have one partner in a lifetime anyway. Most people have between 4 - 10 partners in a lifetime (depending on the study) and the younger generation will likely have a higher average than this.
> 
> As far as wanting to bone everything you see...I honestly don't believe people would even if they could. I think we have our ability to make discerned decisions, and even while they would probably bone more than they do, I don't think they would bone "everyone they see" if it was actually possible to do this without shame, fear, etc.
> 
> Still, it would likely be quite a few partners.


Makes sense, so then could a plausible reason for infidelity be that one or both spouses didn't have the optimum number of partners prior to the marriage? Of course that by itself may be a weak argument....


----------



## Faithful Wife

McDean said:


> Makes sense, so then could a plausible reason for infidelity be that one or both spouses didn't have the optimum number of partners prior to the marriage? Of course that by itself may be a weak argument....


There are many people who can be faithful for a whole marriage or their whole lifetime, even those who have only had the one partner. I think it is still a choice they make, to be faithful, and any urges they feel for some strange are just something they deal with in their own way but never act on it.

For myself personally, I wanted more than one partner in my lifetime, and was happy to have a fun single life, and again for me, I know that having that experience actually helps me stay faithful to my husband. I will never wonder what else could be out there for me, or be curious about having sex with others. Though I still may feel sexual attraction to others, it does not ever fascinate me or cause me to dwell upon actually acting on it...and this is precisely because I have a pretty good idea of what it would be like, and it won't be as good as what I've got.


----------



## McDean

Faithful Wife said:


> There are many people who can be faithful for a whole marriage or their whole lifetime, even those who have only had the one partner. I think it is still a choice they make, to be faithful, and any urges they feel for some strange are just something they deal with in their own way but never act on it.
> 
> For myself personally, I wanted more than one partner in my lifetime, and was happy to have a fun single life, and again for me, I know that having that experience actually helps me stay faithful to my husband. I will never wonder what else could be out there for me, or be curious about having sex with others. Though I still may feel sexual attraction to others, it does not ever fascinate me or cause me to dwell upon actually acting on it...and this is precisely because I have a pretty good idea of what it would be like, and it won't be as good as what I've got.



Yep, same here. It honestly makes it much easier to have had those experiences and of course while I'll look I don't much think beyond that.....but pretty sure I would feel different if I'd only had 1 lover before marriage or something....


----------



## EleGirl

Cletus said:


> I stopped following the argument as soon as the statement was made (albeit not by you) that there was no possibility of evidence ever being presented that showed any measure of sexual differences between men and women.
> 
> I'm not going to continue to debate with someone who is that intellectually dishonest. I'm as tired of the topic as are you. I'm sorry I jumped in to try to correct your mischaracterization of my position.
> 
> You may put any words into my mouth that you wish going forward. I am a little curious how women's self-reporting was argued away out of existence, but not so curious as to continue in a pointless endeavor.


There is a problem with studies having to do who psychological topics such as sexual desire. The problem when talking to men and women about their sexual desire, why they cheat, etc. is that men and women are taught different languages in regards to these topics.

One example that shows is that the studies of human sexuality from the Victorian era all proved that women do not have organisms and did not enjoy sex. These studies PROVED that women only have sex because they wanted children and because it was required by marriage for them to service their husbands sexually.

"Like the early sexologists, Freud believed that women were sexually passive, engaging in sex only because they want children. Because they do not have a penis, girls come to believe they have lost theirs, and eventually, seek to have male children in an attempt to “gain” a penis. Penis envy in women is a problem that Freud believed could never be completely resolved, thus condemning all women to underdeveloped superegos, implying that women will always be morally inferior to men, who are capable of having fully developed superegos."

Read more here... it would be laughable were it not so sad and had it not hurt so many people (both men and women).
Freud | Psychological History of Women

This is what women were taught for a very long time. Freud did not make this stuff up, he only 'studied' and recorded what had been taught for centuries. My grandmother was taught this (she talked to me about it and how sad she was that my grand father died before she realized that she had been fed a line of bull). My mother was taught it. I was taught it was I was younger. However I rejected it.. having lived through the 1960's. 

But even todays, girls are taught remnants of this language. The language that says that sex is not important to women, that women really mostly want affection/love and sex is secondary. That a woman must not ever just experience lust, it must be a by product of affection and love.

There are many areas in life were women speak a different language from men for the exact same thing. So it comes out sounding different. Men and women are taught to communicate differently.


----------



## EleGirl

McDean said:


> Makes sense, so then could a plausible reason for infidelity be that one or both spouses didn't have the optimum number of partners prior to the marriage? Of course that by itself may be a weak argument....


I don't think that's is.

For both men and women, the higher the number of sexual partners before marriage, the likely a person will cheat.


Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Infidelity But Were Afraid to Ask * Hooking Up Smart : Hooking Up Smart

I think that it can go either way.

Some people who have higher numbers of sexual partners prior to marriage might learn that there is no magic fix out there scr3wing around. My bet that this is true when they have a good, strong marriage, love their spouse and have a good, strong sexual and non-sexual intimacy in their marriage.

But, if the marriage has serious issues, they know that there are many fish in the sea. They have the confidence that they can find someone else, so are more likely to cheat.

Just MHO


----------



## EleGirl

EleGirl said:


> *The men had playboy pinups in the barracks.*





Buddy400 said:


> How long ago was this?
> 
> Things are no longer as they were in the 1970's.
> 
> Do you think it's allowed for men to have Playboy Pinups n the walls in today's army? If not, how long as it been since this was allowed?


If you think that Playboy Pinups are not allowed in the military barracks today, you are mistaken.

Up until 2013, military members could have Playboy pinups where ever they wanted them… it was up to the commander.

In 2013, Obama changed this. Now ‘racy’ material and pinups are not allowed in barracks common areas and work areas: “Degrading or offensive material includes, but is not limited to, documents, logs, books, pictures, photographs, calendars, posters, magazines, videos, props, displays, or other media, including electronic media, that contain inappropriate depictions and are detrimental to a professional working environment.”

But they are, of course, still allowed in the private rooms of each military member. 

When we hung the pinups of men in our barracks, it was in our private areas. It is the same thing that the men did in their barracks except they put up pinups of women, of course.


----------



## EleGirl

EleGirl said:


> Women are told pretty clearly that they are not enough for a man, not even their husband.
> We are taught that men are biologically driven to spread their seed.





Cletus said:


> And what if they are? Are women better served by being taught the truth, which is always a prerequisite to understanding and mitigation, or should we teach women a fantasy of the idealized man that they never seem to be able to find in sufficient number, largely because hardly any of them can meet the definition?


Men have been taught a fantasy of the idealized woman and to believe that women are this fantasy. Of course women have also been taught that regarless of what they really feel, they must behave accounting to this fantasy. So why is it good to teach men a fantasy about what women are? 

I think you missed my point… that very often one man is also clearly not enough for a woman, not even the her husband is enough. Someone on this thread mentioned a study that shows that after a few years of being together a lot of women lose sexual interest in their husband and it’s because one guy is not enough… she also craves variety. It may, or may not, be for different reasons but it is what it is.

One thing that shows this pretty strongly is that men and women are equally as likely to choose to make their marriage sexless. About 10%-20% of all men and women lose complete sexual interest in their spouse. And even in marriages that continue to have a sex life in the long run, both the man and the woman is as likely to be the one who limits the amount of sex.

So just as women have been taught that they, are not enough for any man.. .not even their husband. No man is really enough for any woman… not even their wife. Just as women need to realize that most likely their husbands lust after other women… men need to realize that their wives are lusting after other men. The difference is that men talk about this lust they have a lot because men were taught that they are supposed to have this lust. Women do not talk about it because were taught that we don’t have that kind of lust. But most of us do… we just talk about it differently than men do to preserve the veneer that society has taught us to keep.




Cletus said:


> We should be teaching both men AND women that the species is not very good at monogamy. That if you want a reasonable but never guaranteed shot at a happy and stable relationship, you'd better understand that your partner will find others sexually attractive during the course of your union, and that there are things you can do to frustrate or reduce that problem.


I agree. That goes for both men and women.



Cletus said:


> Every man I know - each and every last one of them - thinks about sex multiple times a day with a strange attractive woman. It doesn't matter how hot our spouse is. It doesn't matter how happy we are. There's not much we can do about that, it's just wired in to the machinery. If you think your spouse is different, I've got bad news for you. So yes, it that's how you want to define it, our mates are not good enough for us in the sense that we lose all interest in every other woman on the planet.


The point I was addressing was one that it’s wrong for a woman to acknowledge to her husband if she thinks about sex with other men. But it’s ok for a man to tell his wife and everyone else that he’s having lustful thoughts of other women all the time. Someone said something about it being an insult to the husband. Why is this an insult to the husband, but no one seems to think it’s an insult to the wife to tell the wife that her husband lusts after other women?

A lot of women do have lustful thoughts about men… a lot. I did when I was younger, and yes it was a few times a day. I have no idea if they are exactly like the thoughts that men have about women … but I know that they were very sexual, very lustful and often.



Cletus said:


> But our mates can be good enough for us to _forego _every other woman on the planet. Knowledge is power, and women need to know this about the men they choose if they are to be fully informed. As, of course, the men should understand about their mates.


I agree. Monogamy is a choice. But.. there is more that people need to understand about their mates… both men and women have sexual thoughts about other people. Of course it’s to different degrees for each person. But it’s real.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

McDean said:


> Yep, same here. It honestly makes it much easier to have had those experiences and of course while I'll look I don't much think beyond that.....but pretty sure I would feel different if I'd only had 1 lover before marriage or something....


Myself & husband are one of those couple's who's only had 1 partner - each other. In my youth, that's what I wanted, even prayed to find...we felt it very special to experience all our 1sts together.. Neither of us have regrets here... though I realize reading many posts ....that many come to feel this way.. like they missed out... (we've been together over 33 yrs )... 

I DO feel a fulfilling sex life can Make or Break a couple though.. there needs to be erotic happiness, passion..and orgasms!!







I would add lying in his arms in the "afterglow" also..

Since I can not speak of other experiences to compare ...what I can speak on is surely the same.. an inner satisfaction...as those who've had more experience... when we find that lover who not only Rocks our world physically but also brings the emotional element ...when we feel deeply loved, wanted, his desire to please (and ours)...getting lost in each other...these are like a HIGH.. sex never gets old when all of this comes together... 

When you find all of this in a partner...whether it be #1 or # 13...you've found something to hold on to tightly...these greatly reduce any temptations for some strange...so I feel...

Now... my husband could be more Kinky & adventurous, more verbally flirtatious in bed ......some things I have introduced...but he's been game.. so I can't complain. 



UMP said:


> I agree. Even when my wife tells me she's not interested in others, I figure she's just trying to be nice and not cause trouble. Regardless, I assume she is just as nasty as I am, well almost as nasty:grin2:


I've always been very OPEN about what turns me on - with my husband.. he knows I ENJOY setting the eyes on a hot man....but he also knows a HOT PLAYER I would never touch -even in my youth.. let alone being married.. 

My husband is like the male version of me.. . greatly enjoys the beauty of female body -he likes some EYE CANDY.. to not look he would say is "no fun".. neither of us gawk.. but of course we LOOK.. there is no offense.. we gaze at each other too.. can I say .. this part makes all the difference...

Do some women downplay these things.. I believe so.. it's easy to admit on a anonymous forum.. but among friends.. ha ha .. I would though! I've done it , and he'd be sitting beside me with a grin saying I am a dirty old woman.. ...I find it human nature... Sex therapists, read this in one of my books.. maybe this one...

Passionista: The Empowered Woman's Guide to Pleasuring a Man (Kerner):.. that it's healthy , beneficial, its a part of our erotic nature to have sexual fantasies... it betters our sex lives even...

I've always had ravishing fantasies.. sometimes called "Rape fantasies" -these are often the theme of Romantic novels.. its all good!


----------



## McDean

In my experience and whom I have known, most of the time the more partners they've had in their youth the less they care about having more later on. That being said, it makes sense that it could also lead them to believe it would be easy to pursue again and so if things in the marriage aren't right the result might be infidelity.

Impressed and maybe blown away by couples like you and your husband Simply. As a young man the idea of one lover for life wasn't in the drop down menu. Upon reflection I can honestly say that I bought into the line of BS that men have been fed for who knows how long - that the more notches on my bedpost the more 'awesome' I am. Goal achieved (notches wise) but really in the end it didn't do much in the way of 'enhancing' my life. I would add in many ways it may have contributed to my view of women - 1) no doubt in my mind they are as sexual as men and 2) I really started to believe they maybe be worse at fidelity with new found 'freedoms' than men are: {my supporting logic for #2 before you ask - women can get sex much more easily than men in most cases, if men and women are similar sexually, and we believe if men could get sex as easily as women then far less would go for monogamy (not saying all but in general) then, if women can get sex more easily would less go for monogamy? and twice I was 'picked up' by married women who hid they were married until after the fact (true this is a direct experience that may or may not be mainstream)}....I still hold fast to #1 but less so now to #2 because I was one of the lucky few men who found sex easy to come by and I still chose monogamy....


----------



## Buddy400

EleGirl said:


> But it’s ok for a man to tell his wife and everyone else that he’s having lustful thoughts of other women all the time. Someone said something about it being an insult to the husband. Why is this an insult to the husband,* but no one seems to think it’s an insult to the wife to tell the wife that her husband lusts after other women*?


Well, I think it's insulting to the wife if her husband tells her he lusts after other women.

Any other men here think it's okay to tell their wife that they lust after other women?


----------



## Faithful Wife

McDean said:


> I still hold fast to #1 but less so now to #2 because I was one of the lucky few men who found sex easy to come by and I still chose monogamy....


I think there is also a false stereo type about men who do find sex partners easily...the stereo type is that they are jerks, creeps, cheaters, and don't want monogamy. But we've got a few guys here at TAM who always found happily willing sex partners (even though they turned them down sometimes for their own reasons) who tell us that no, they weren't out to hump and dump all of these willing women. That they were decent human beings and treated women like decent human beings. And that they are perfectly happy to be monogamous at this time.

My husband is one of these guys, too. And he is incredibly emotional and intimate about sex, which is the main reason I call him a sex god. He has always drawn in lots of lovely willing women, but when I talk about this, I think it sounds to some people that he was "hunting" them somehow or that this happened purely because of his looks. 

Instead what happens is that women can tell instantly upon meeting him that his vibe is very sexual but also very deep and real, and they respond to this. He is also good looking but not everyone's type, for sure...I was not pulled in by his looks at all, I was pulled in by this lovely feeling I had from his presence. I was not mistaken about that either, and once we became intimate it was obvious that what he offers sexually is more than most guys (that I had been with) offer. It is difficult to explain what I mean here, but it is very easy to feel it when you meet someone you have this kind of chemistry with.

Anyway my point here being that lovely men who are highly sexual are sometimes negatively stereo typed, as well as lovely women who are highly sexual. Being highly sexual doesn't make a person have poor character but many people think it does.


----------



## samyeagar

Buddy400 said:


> Well, I think it's insulting to the wife if her husband tells her he lusts after other women.
> 
> Any other men here think it's okay to tell their wife that they lust after other women?


For me, nope. And generally, not OK unless the partner is truly OK with it. Everybody is different. 

It is quite disrespectful and cruel to say or do something one knows hurts their partner. This goes for non verbal things as well such as liking and sharing pictures on social media. Just because one thinks something does not mean it needs to be expressed.


----------



## Cletus

Buddy400 said:


> Well, I think it's insulting to the wife if her husband tells her he lusts after other women.
> 
> Any other men here think it's okay to tell their wife that they lust after other women?


Nope. Been sorta wondering who are these men we keep hearing about. I'm sure they're around, but they seem to be in pretty short supply here.


----------



## always_alone

Cletus said:


> Nope. Been sorta wondering who are these men we keep hearing about. I'm sure they're around, but they seem to be in pretty short supply here.


Ummm. Really?

Oh wait, I get it: men, never tell their own wives that they lust after other women (except when they do, of course). They get *other* men to do it for them. 

Got it.


----------



## always_alone

samyeagar said:


> It is quite disrespectful and cruel to say or do something one knows hurts their partner. This goes for non verbal things as well such as liking and sharing pictures on social media. Just because one thinks something does not mean it needs to be expressed.


Doesn't this pretty much spell the death of intimacy?

Only the good news should be shared? I dunno, I'm inclined to see the good news as a lie when the bad news is hidden. Maybe that's just me?


----------



## norajane

Buddy400 said:


> Well, I think it's insulting to the wife if her husband tells her he lusts after other women.
> 
> Any other men here think it's okay to tell their wife that they lust after other women?


That's certainly an inference that is easy to make when guys watch porn regularly - they are lusting to the point of masturbating to those women.


----------



## always_alone

norajane said:


> That's certainly an inference that is easy to make when guys watch porn regularly - they are lusting to the point of masturbating to those women.


Not to mention the comments about women on the street and/or celebrities.


----------



## UMP

Buddy400 said:


> Well, I think it's insulting to the wife if her husband tells her he lusts after other women.
> 
> Any other men here think it's okay to tell their wife that they lust after other women?


My wife knows I lust after other women. Why, because I have told her exactly this: "I pretty much want to have sex with every woman I see."
Did it bother her? Not really. I simply told her the truth of who I am.

Jimmy Carter was once asked if he had committed adultery. He replied with "I have committed adultery in my heart many times."
Same here. No illusions. I am who I am.


----------



## Cletus

norajane said:


> That's certainly an inference that is easy to make when guys watch porn regularly - they are lusting to the point of masturbating to those women.


Which is why hiding your porn use is simultaneously devious and respectful.


----------



## Cletus

UMP said:


> My wife knows I lust after other women. Why, because I have told her exactly this: "I pretty much want to have sex with every woman I see."
> Did it bother her? Not really. I simply told her the truth of who I am.
> 
> Jimmy Carter was once asked if he had committed adultery. He replied with "I have committed adultery in my heart many times."
> Same here. No illusions. I am who I am.


Knowing in the general sense that your spouse finds members of the opposite sex attractive to the point of lust is one thing. Turning to your spouse, pointing to a woman on the street, and saying "Damn, I'd like to bang the bejeezus outta her" is another. 

When my wife bought Magic Mike, I know what she was thinking. But even when I watched it with her, she never did anything disrespectful, and I return the favor.


----------



## samyeagar

always_alone said:


> Doesn't this pretty much spell the death of intimacy?
> 
> Only the good news should be shared? I dunno, I'm inclined to see the good news as a lie when the bad news is hidden. Maybe that's just me?


Filtering ones speech, and monitoring ones behavior out of respect to one's partner is not the death of intimacy. What kills the intimacy is when one feels that their need to express certain things comes in direct conflict with their respect of their partner. When that happens, it becomes an issue of compatibility.

As I said, different people feel differently about these types of things. Some people would not be bothered in the least at hearing about who their partner is sexually drawn to, and would have no problems with them outwardly expressing that attraction. Myself and many others do have a problem with it and don't feel as if our intimacy if stifled by having certain filters in place.


----------



## always_alone

samyeagar said:


> Filtering ones speech, and monitoring ones behavior out of respect to one's partner is not the death of intimacy. What kills the intimacy is when one feels that their need to express certain things comes in direct conflict with their respect of their partner. When that happens, it becomes an issue of compatibility.
> 
> As I said, different people feel differently about these types of things. Some people would not be bothered in the least at hearing about who their partner is sexually drawn to, and would have no problems with them outwardly expressing that attraction. Myself and many others do have a problem with it and don't feel as if our intimacy if stifled by having certain filters in place.


Agreed. People do feel very differently about these things. Personally, (as you may have surmised), I'm quite conflicted. I like truth, and when it is hidden from me, I feel disconnected. On some levels, for example, I have no idea who my SO even is. And will likely never find out because he has "filters" where he shares what he thinks appropriate.

So on on hand, I wish I could get more at this truth, and have access to some of the inner thoughts. 

At the same time, the truth could very likely end the relationship altogether, rather than add intimacy. Because if the truth really is what some of the voices of TAM say it is, I'm out.

I just wish I could make an authentic choice, that's *my* choice. KWIM?


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## Faithful Wife

always_alone said:


> I just wish I could make an authentic choice, that's *my* choice. KWIM?


Yes, I get this. It is one thing to know our SO feels lust or attraction for others, and another thing to know that they actually find us lacking and they are always only imagining others while having sex with us, for instance. Maybe some people wouldn't mind this, like "whatever gets the job done" type of mind set. But I don't want to be with someone who is unable to feel the desire for me that I feel for them. I also wouldn't want to be with someone who can't sexually engage beyond the visual. I have to know this person is truly "with me" when we're together. Which doesn't mean other people never flit through our minds while we're together...but typically, when you are focused with eyes open on your partner and talking about the lovely feelings you are having, you are engaged with that person directly. Without this, meh, sex would be awful and I'd never know where they actually were, but I'd know they weren't here with me, right now. The ghosts of others who may flit through our minds are not what we are engaged with, they are just residuals of the massive amount of sexual data we have in there.


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## always_alone

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, I get this. It is one thing to know our SO feels lust or attraction for others, and another thing to know that they actually find us lacking and they are always only imagining others while having sex with us, for instance. Maybe some people wouldn't mind this, like "whatever gets the job done" type of mind set. But I don't want to be with someone who is unable to feel the desire for me that I feel for them. I also wouldn't want to be with someone who can't sexually engage beyond the visual. I have to know this person is truly "with me" when we're together. Which doesn't mean other people never flit through our minds while we're together...but typically, when you are focused with eyes open on your partner and talking about the lovely feelings you are having, you are engaged with that person directly. Without this, meh, sex would be awful and I'd never know where they actually were, but I'd know they weren't here with me, right now. The ghosts of others who may flit through our minds are not what we are engaged with, they are just residuals of the massive amount of sexual data we have in there.



Oh, thank you for saying this better than I could. I understand that we are all sexual, we all have our thoughts and ghosts, our experiences that make us unique. But I really don't want to be with someone who, say, is always thinking of other women and how hot they all are. If he wants those women, he shouldn't be wasting his time with me. He should be out there trying to bang them all.


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## McDean

always_alone said:


> Oh, thank you for saying this better than I could. I understand that we are all sexual, we all have our thoughts and ghosts, our experiences that make us unique. But I really don't want to be with someone who, say, is always thinking of other women and how hot they all are. If he wants those women, he shouldn't be wasting his time with me. He should be out there trying to bang them all.


Agree with you Faithful and Always, an additional irony in this is the fact that SO's who would look at others with such heavy lust all the time are only imagining what those others would be like when in fact they may not be near as good a lover or mate than you or I or any others on this site etc. The childlike need to pursue greener grass purely based on the cover of the book is what leads to other postings we read where someone realizes what a huge mistake they made but now it is too late....look but don't touch, speak about others in a way that keeps your current SO feeling good and respected (whatever that looks like for them) and leave it at that....


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## always_alone

McDean said:


> Agree with you Faithful and Always, an additional irony in this is the fact that SO's who would look at others with such heavy lust all the time are only imagining what those others would be like when in fact they may not be near as good a lover or mate than you or I or any others on this site etc.


I agree! And for that reason also think it is disrespectful to the person you are lusting after, as it shows that you are more interested in the fantasy in your head than the reality of that person.


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## SimplyAmorous

McDean said:


> In my experience and whom I have known, most of the time the more partners they've had in their youth the less they care about having more later on. That being said, it makes sense that it could also lead them to believe it would be easy to pursue again and so if things in the marriage aren't right the result might be infidelity.


 I believe so much of this has to do with HOW someone is wired, and how they are brought up.. I watched my mother , after the divorce, screw umteen user men and it destroyed her life... she lost all her self esteem..and sex meant NOTHING to her... the story is more traumatic than the average by far.. it put such a sour foreboding taste in my mouth I vowed to never allow a man to use me and walk away.. when I met my husband... I knew early on he was just not that sort of guy... even in the smallest way.. he was very sincere, just different than the average Joe...

Had I not met him. I'd likely have a very different life path ...I was always a romantic, high on the scales ...Lasting Love is something I wanted more than anything else in life... just an old fashioned sort of woman here.. its one thing that worked out for me.. 



> Impressed and maybe blown away by couples like you and your husband Simply. *As a young man the idea of one lover for life wasn't in the drop down menu.*


 You are much more COMMON among men than guys like my husband.. though I do know a handful of others very similar to us.. I guess it's the circles we run in ... He wanted the same things I did, it's very special to him.. he is the type who could not have sex unless he had the emotional connection. he doesn't feel it's right ....that doesn't mean he doesn't get a thrill by looking.. but he needs the whole package.. (like me)... he respected me more for how strongly I felt.. he wanted to marry me, have kids, all of that.. 

How could I walk away from someone like him... just for FUN...more excitement...I could have had hotter guys.. but I knew I wouldn't have the stable life that I dreamed of...those type of men generally rip your heart out when a hotter specimen comes along.. I wanted no part of that..I'd want to take his balls off ! 

I don't trust men easily at all.. given what I seen growing up. My Father was a faithful man, a "devoted to one woman" type all his life though. 



> Upon reflection I can honestly say that I bought into the line of BS that men have been fed for who knows how long - that the more notches on my bedpost the more 'awesome' I am. Goal achieved (notches wise) but really in the end it didn't do much in the way of 'enhancing' my life. I would add in many ways it may have contributed to my view of women.


 thank you for sharing this.. I have asked my husband this a # of times.. if he felt like *a loser* cause he didn't bed more women.. does he regret it.... all of that. he knows he can say anything to me.. honestly he never cared what anyone thought of him.. how he felt about himself was more important.. he can be very stubborn... he was never a guy who tried to impress at all.. just an honest, more on the humble side - type...there was always a quiet confidence there.. he always felt men like that were nothing more than A-holes anyway.. (the trying to impress part) in his world.. if the chick wanted that .. he wouldn't want her anyway!



> - 1) no doubt in my mind they are as sexual as men and 2) I really started to believe they maybe be worse at fidelity with new found 'freedoms' than men are: {my supporting logic for #2 before you ask - women can get sex much more easily than men in most cases, if men and women are similar sexually, and we believe if men could get sex as easily as women then far less would go for monogamy (not saying all but in general) then, if women can get sex more easily would less go for monogamy?


 I guess it depends on what a woman wants.. I wanted MONOGAMY.. I wanted someone I could trust for life.. I LOVE & crave intimacy.. the deeper the better... I could never be with an emotionally distant man.. but also...I will be the 1st to admit.... if our sex life sucked.... our marriage would have never lasted.. if he was low drive.. didn't have desire.. I would never have the patience.. I'd raise the roof off the house ... in my world.. you only need one C*** to play with.. ya know. But yeah. it's got to be willing and wanting ... it's good to keep the spice!! 



> and twice I was 'picked up' by married women who hid they were married until after the fact (true this is a direct experience that may or may not be mainstream)}....I still hold fast to #1 but less so now to #2 because I was one of the lucky few men who found sex easy to come by and I still chose monogamy....


 Less and less are choosy monogamy today.. so good for you !! ... I tend to think the hotter a person is.. obviously the more opportunities/ temptation they will have -given a lifestyle.. if they don't hold their boundaries, convictions well in being faithful.. add to that mounting resentment, not communicating in the home.... it's all such a slippery slope for people today.. 

Watering our own garden, dealing with our conflicts head on, finding that middle ground , for harmony .....as to not be reaching out to another emotionally -because it's a void we're needing to fill...or falling into the physical temptation in a weak lonely moment is just so paramount.. (if this was a part of one's regular lifestyle in the hookup scene.. I would THINK it would be easier to again fall into later in life -when things are falling apart in a marriage.) 

It's a sex saturated world today... I don't mind it so much.. so long as it's just looking .. no touching.. no going over the fence emotionally with another.. we all KNOW when we are heading there.. if we are honest with ourselves..


----------



## AliceA

always_alone said:


> I agree! And for that reason also think it is disrespectful to the person you are lusting after, as it shows that you are more interested in the fantasy in your head than the reality of that person.


That's exactly what the porn industry is all about, and many people see nothing wrong with that. Nobody gives a crap about the person in front of the camera, they aren't interested in reality.


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## SimplyAmorous

always_alone said:


> Doesn't this pretty much spell the death of intimacy?
> 
> *Only the good news should be shared? I dunno, I'm inclined to see the good news as a lie when the bad news is hidden. Maybe that's just me?*


I agree 100% .. it's not just you.. I abhor when people lie to my face or paint something better than they are feeling.. I'd rather be slapped.









At least you know what you are dealing with.. can have a reaction... and have choices how to deal.. instead of living in limbo... there is tact and not pushing the knife in further than one has to.. of course.. but being REAL..with some sensitivity.... this is what I want from those in my life.. 

Having been dealing with the aftermath of a pretty devastating break up our 2nd son just endured...after almost 4 yrs with this girl... what did SHE DO WRONG....* she didn't speak up when she was loosing feelings for him*.. she held it all inside.. she kept saying all these lovely things.. like 9 days before she breaks his heart.. what does she have on her FB page.. a pic I took of him holding her in the water.. beaming smiles.. she writes "I'm with this guy... he's my world"..

:wtf: we learn she was loosing feelings for him since the ending of last YEAR.. yet she wrote all this bull**** in these letters like the sun, moon & stars lay on him.. he's her everything, she signed every letter with his Last name.. she fed into his ignorance on a grand scale...

Now this is not to say my son was innocent... he WAS taking her for granted in some ways...I even warned him she was the passive type, that will not speak up, grow resentment then be "DONE" ...that he's screwing up, so there is blame on both ends here.. but ya know... who who wants hassled by their mother.. it needed to come from HER... 

Yep.. son was Stupid.. HARD lesson here..give your woman time & attention.... I think to myself.. if only they had more HONEST FIGHTS...got it out there... they could have ended it sooner or got through it - intimacy intact.. 

I realize this is getting off the subject .. this is more about being honest with what turns our heads..

THIS has to be one of the most *sensitive* subjects ever.. for both parties involved..


----------



## samyeagar

SimplyAmorous said:


> I agree 100% .. it's not just you.. I abhor when people lie to my face or paint something better than they are feeling.. I'd rather be slapped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At least you know what you are dealing with.. can have a reaction... and have choices how to deal.. instead of living in limbo... there is tact and not pushing the knife in further than one has to.. of course.. but being REAL..with some sensitivity.... this is what I want from those in my life..
> 
> Having been dealing with the aftermath of a pretty devastating break up our 2nd son just endured...after almost 4 yrs with this girl... what did SHE DO WRONG....* she didn't speak up when she was loosing feelings for him*.. she held it all inside.. she kept saying all these lovely things.. like 9 days before she breaks his heart.. what does she have on her FB page.. a pic I took of him holding her in the water.. beaming smiles.. she writes "I'm with this guy... he's my world"..
> 
> :wtf: we learn she was loosing feelings for him since the ending of last YEAR.. yet she wrote all this bull**** in these letters like the sun, moon & stars lay on him.. he's her everything, she signed every letter with his Last name.. she fed into his ignorance on a grand scale...
> 
> Now this is not to say my son was innocent... he WAS taking her for granted in some ways...I even warned him she was the passive type, that will not speak up, grow resentment then be "DONE" ...that he's screwing up, so there is blame on both ends here.. but ya know... who who wants hassled by their mother.. it needed to come from HER...
> 
> Yep.. son was Stupid.. HARD lesson here..give your woman time & attention.... I think to myself.. if only they had more HONEST FIGHTS...got it out there... they could have ended it sooner or got through it - intimacy intact..
> 
> *I realize this is getting off the subject .. this is more about being honest with what turns our heads..*
> 
> THIS has to be one of the most *sensitive* subjects ever.. for both parties involved..


I get what you are saying here, and agree with the example you gave. Open and honest even if it is bad with something that is affecting the relationship...issues can't be worked on without communication.

I think you know what I was getting at too, and one place where we differ...I don't really care to hear about every guy my wife finds hot, and lord knows, there are plenty of them. How does it benefit me, or our relationship for her to express it? How does it affect her to just keep it to herself? If it does have a negative affect on her, then the issue is no longer her need to outwardly express, but a broader one of compatibility, and THAT is what needs addressed...the expression would just be the symptom.


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## SimplyAmorous

samyeagar said:


> I get what you are saying here, and agree with the example you gave. Open and honest even if it is bad with something that is affecting the relationship...issues can't be worked on without communication.
> 
> I think you know what I was getting at too, and one place where we differ...I don't really care to hear about every guy my wife finds hot, and lord knows, there are plenty of them. How does it benefit me, or our relationship for her to express it? How does it affect her to just keep it to herself? If it does have a negative affect on her, then the issue is no longer her need to outwardly express, but a broader one of compatibility, and THAT is what needs addressed...the expression would just be the symptom.


We do disagree slightly here Sam.. BUT .. and this is a BIG BUT.. I do *not* go on the way some women may - -that can leave a man feeling "what am I.. chopped liver"... I've seen a friend do this.. her husband is a bit overweight. but so is she... she will post these HOT pics on FACEBOOK of men...(can't imagine what her husband may think of that -disrespectful.. I think so).... with comments underneath ...like she is lusting after them...I shake my head..... I remember her saying "I might be married.. but I'm not dead" at a tupperwear party years ago....and when he's around.. she DOESN'T seem to give back to her husband, you don't see the affection so much between them.. 

Sure I've had phases where I wanted to see every movie a favorite actor was in , things like that...I've had favorite porn stars too!... (dirty me!)....I might want to see all their movies.. or a particular Rock stars.. even without saying a word.... he already knows what does it for me.. he'll watch with me...and enjoy... 

But I go on FAR MORE on how much HE does it for me.. how much I feel for him.. I can be a little over kill here.. and yeah. he does suck it up.. if he didn't like that even.. we wouldn't be compatible.. because I DO so enjoy gushing over my man, another reason I prefer humble men.. if he thought he was all God's gift.. this wouldn't be so much fun for me. 

I gave this story once here.. had an girlfriend in my youth. who was literally NUTS about David Cassidy.. she had every stitch of her room decorated with his photos, memorabilia.. in my young mind, I thought to myself.. what an AWFUL waste of enthusiasm.. David Cassidy will never know she exits... what a colossal waste of her money, her thoughts, it's like spitting in the wind.. how does that DO anything FOR HER??

That's kinda where my mind goes when admiring something on a screen....I've never bought a poster of someone I thought was hot my entire life... never will... but I sure love hanging memorable Pictures of me & him in our home -to celebrate our years.. I go out of my way to celebrate US....this is what fills my heart...it's REAL, tangible.. and full of everything I need. 

This makes all the difference.. if I didn't do these things.. it would have more of a hurtful effect.. the balance is so far on my admiring HIM above all.. what he brings to my life, that it's just never been an issue for us...

On his end.. he's more quiet.. not as forthcoming as me.. but I ASK HIM , I dig to know what turns him on.. I enjoy those conversations..sometimes we make fun of each other.. Joke about this or that.. if I felt a tinge of jealousy. I'd probably enjoy trying to outdo the chick or something... though getting older.. that's not gonna happen.. I just can't judge him.. we are all attracted to youth and hotness.


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## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> I get what you are saying here, and agree with the example you gave. Open and honest even if it is bad with something that is affecting the relationship...issues can't be worked on without communication.
> 
> I think you know what I was getting at too, and one place where we differ...I don't really care to hear about every guy my wife finds hot, and lord knows, there are plenty of them. How does it benefit me, or our relationship for her to express it? How does it affect her to just keep it to herself? If it does have a negative affect on her, then the issue is no longer her need to outwardly express, but a broader one of compatibility, and THAT is what needs addressed...the expression would just be the symptom.


Does she still do this, sam? After you've expressed many times you would like her to stop? And has she learned to verbally appreciate you more instead?


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## McDean

When it comes to matters of 'between you and your SO' - open and honest to Simply's point is so critical. My wife like her son's ex just finds it darn near impossible to speak up and had been emotionally separating from me for a year before I knew it was happening...OUCH! On the flip side, pointing out sexy other people (at least when you do it all the time) is indicative of someone who has not grown up. Sorry Sam but your brief description has me wondering if your wife has posters of boy bands up on her walls (truly joking with you).....what can anyone gain (other than fun banter between two people on occasion) by constantly pointing out others you find potentially more attractive, once in awhile perhaps but in the end if I think they are all so much hotter I should have the cajones to move on or grow up and realize the grass is seldom greener.....take it from one who before my wife, dated a former NFL cheerleader - beautiful yes, crazy as crazy comes (not me throwing stones because we didn't last either, we barely got started before I started wondering about which of her personalities was going to kill me in my sleep)....


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## SimplyAmorous

McDean said:


> *When it comes to matters of 'between you and your SO' - open and honest to Simply's point is so critical. My wife like her son's ex just finds it darn near impossible to speak up and had been emotionally separating from me for a year before I knew it was happening...OUCH! *


 I never seen anything LIKE THIS so up close & personal.. a story of OVERcompensating on FB for one.. (we can't trust anything we read obviously)... I guess she explains it as.. she WANTED to FEEL THAT way.. but was loosing it.. I don't know.. I am a straight shooter..can't relate to women like this in any way.. I'd blow a stack just trying to keep it all in.. 

He did tell me .. there were times she was "screaming inside".. I did see moments where he was blowing her off and I wanted to kick him.... thinking "SON....you are screwing up!"... all in all... I think they just weren't compatible enough, so it was for the best..... they loved the IDEA of who they were with.. they looked great together, in many of the same activities... she was a beauty too ! but something was missing.. not enough chemistry.. oh he's on the rebound already.. 1 month later.. 2 weeks into his college experience.. he's in a relationship, haven't met this one yet. 



> On the flip side, pointing out sexy other people (at least when you do it all the time) is indicative of someone who has not grown up. Sorry Sam but your brief description has me wondering if your wife has posters of boy bands up on her walls (truly joking with you).....what can anyone gain (other than fun banter between two people on occasion) by constantly pointing out others you find potentially more attractive, once in awhile perhaps but in the end if I think they are all so much hotter I should have the cajones to move on or grow up and realize the grass is seldom greener


 this part is so true.. pick up any Hollywood rag & fill the next few minutes with the latest & greatest heartbreak, infidelity, jumping from this bed to that bed to another's bed.. some of these people may be juicy to look at, they seem to have it all.. fast cars, mansions & partying every night...but equally as many addictions, divorce, they can't find anyone trusted & true, not even themselves.... so yeah... the allure easily ends..seeing the reality behind the scenes.... 

Give me a simpler lifestyle any day... just not inspired by the rich & famous ....but they sure do make some phenomenal movies & music to sooth our souls.. I can see admiring THE awesome talent, but it ends there. 



> take it from one who before my wife, dated a former NFL cheerleader - beautiful yes, crazy as crazy comes (not me throwing stones because we didn't last either, we barely got started before I started wondering about which of her personalities was going to kill me in my sleep)....


 Sounds pretty bad McDean... how did you miss these things while dating.. it seems many are in a fog, on their best behavior or something.. or just that stessors after the vows bring out the worst in people..


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## McDean

On "the missing signs" Simply, and your son may suffer from this a little as well, I am terrible about reading real feelings vs the ones people portray. I too prefer direct, it's how I conduct my business dealings and what hope for in return. I think many women and men are like me and others are not. For sure it may come down to a compatibility question. Plus, I was a lot younger then and in general less observant overall lol.


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## Catherine602

What Ele said. 

I feel very attracted to men who fit my "type" and staring at them is hard to stop. For a long time, I felt bad about it and thought that something was wrong with me. But, humans are naturally attracted to beauty and can't help gazing and wondering. Women are not as obvious about looking, it's not ladylike or culturally acceptable. 

The male stripper movie Magic Mike is an excellent revelation of what many women are really like Vs. what they should be like. Who would have thought that movies about hot guys taking their clothes off would make millions worldwide from audiences >90% of which were women. More interesting that that was the reaction of the media and many men. I read one movie reviewer comment that the only women gong to see the movies were middle-aged, or fat or lonely. That seems to have summed up the general attitude.


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## SimplyAmorous

Catherine602 said:


> I feel very attracted to men who fit my "type" and staring at them is hard to stop. For a long time, I felt bad about it and thought that something was wrong with me. But, humans are naturally attracted to beauty and can't help gazing and wondering. Women are not as obvious about looking, it's not ladylike or culturally acceptable.
> 
> *The male stripper movie Magic Mike is an excellent revelation of what many women are really like Vs. what they should be like*. Who would have thought that movies about hot guys taking their clothes off would make millions worldwide from audiences >90% of which were women. More interesting that that was the reaction of the media and many men. I read one movie reviewer comment that the only women gong to see the movies were middle-aged, or fat or lonely. That seems to have summed up the general attitude.


Mentioning what women are REALLY LIKE.. ha ha.. I went to see a knock off of the Chippendales..







...plus we've been in a strip club.. WOW.. the difference.. women are down right screaming CRAZY ...reaching for these men in their underwear , touching their bodies, they were picking up these women rocking them...the loss of control , it was like when women seen the Beatles for the 1st time in America or something.. just add Sex to it - that mania.... All I while I'm thinking....hmmm wonder who gets to go back stage & get it on. 

.. Now really..I think I was one of the TAMEST in the room..I went with 2 girlfriends , one literally grabbed my hand making me touch this guy's chest.... I wanted to crawl under a rock.. I am just not comfortable doing something like this to a complete stranger!

The experience was purely eye opening for me...







...seeing how WILD women can be in a room full of hot guys...

Husband asked me what I thought when I got home ...oh I enjoyed it.... it was an EXPERIENCE... loved the dancing.. my friends were as crazy as those other women, the other went on stage, she had the time of her life !....

But I told him those guys were TOO BUFF.. that's just not what I go for ....he thought that's what I'd say --ha ha... he knows me all too well.. 

I took my husband to see Magic Mike.. he didn't mind... There were other men there with their wives.. He thought the plot was pretty good.. I found Mikes side kick hotter than he was .. but I'm weird like that...


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## McDean

The irony of your experience Simply is that the male strippers allow themselves to be touched, can't do that to female strippers or you might get yourself thrown out or worse.....double standard perhaps? I've been to a club in vegas that had both male and female at the same time and the women were by far more aggressive and loud....pent up perhaps lol.....


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## always_alone

There is definitely a double standard in rules for touching in strip clubs. I think it mostly has to do with safety of the dancers. As for why women are more wild as audiences, my best guess is that they have fewer opportunities. Naked or scantily clad women are absolutely everywhere, all the time. Guys who frequent strip clubs will go all the time, and there's one on practically every corner. Opportunities for women are much fewer and far between. 

But most of the chippendale dancers are actually gay, and not even the slightest bit interested in their female audiences. Much more likely to get it on with each other.


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## Catherine602

SA I am always impressed by your natural positive female sexuality. Wish I had it. 

I've never been to a strip show. I wanted to go when my girl friends went but I felt bad about wanting to go. Went to see Magic Mike XXL with GFs. It was a revelation, never saw so many hot half-naked men in my life and I liked it. I don't feel ashamed or weird because many other .women had the same reaction It must be normal. 

Now I know what men feel. They see naked idealized women all the time and feel no shame. They develop a taste for visual sexual stimulation. Women are usually not exposed to a variety of hot naked men. They don't know what they don't know. In fact, looking at hot naked men is discouraged by shamming. 

There was something about the shape of the bodies, their facial features, the way they moved and the way they were confident and positive towards women. I had an almost involuntary feeling of something I can't describe. Now I notice hot men who have the shape that was so attractive (not when I am with my husband). They are not in abundance but seeing them satisfies a need I didn't know I had. If this keeps up, I may develop a grading system based on hotness.


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## McDean

Catherine602 said:


> SA I am always impressed by your natural positive female sexuality. Wish I had it.
> 
> I've never been to a strip show. I wanted to go when my girl friends went but I felt bad about wanting to go. Went to see Magic Mike XXL with GFs. It was a revelation, never saw so many hot half-naked men in my life and I liked it. I don't feel ashamed or weird because many other .women had the same reaction It must be normal.
> 
> Now I know what men feel. They see naked idealized women all the time and feel no shame. They develop a taste for visual sexual stimulation. Women are usually not exposed to a variety of hot naked men. They don't know what they don't know. In fact, looking at hot naked men is discouraged by shamming.
> 
> There was something about the shape of the bodies, their facial features, the way they moved and the way they were confident and positive towards women. I had an almost involuntary feeling of something I can't describe. Now I notice hot men who have the shape that was so attractive (not when I am with my husband). They are not in abundance but seeing them satisfies a need I didn't know I had. If this keeps up, I may develop a grading system based on hotness.


I think it's so true that the availability of half-naked men for women to oogle it minimal compared to the reverse for men. Definitely can see how in many cases women would not 'know' what they are missing or even like due to the lack of visual 'opportunities'.....

That being said, hope the increasing availability of said visuals doesn't lead women down the same trap as men have fallen for, what % of the population looks like the men in Magic Mike? Men's eating disorders have been on the rise the past 10 years....last thing we need in our society is more body shaming and once again, beauty doesn't always come with the rest of the 'complete package'.....but, looking sure can be fun eh!


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## always_alone

McDean said:


> That being said, hope the increasing availability of said visuals doesn't lead women down the same trap as men have fallen for, what % of the population looks like the men in Magic Mike? Men's eating disorders have been on the rise the past 10 years....last thing we need in our society is more body shaming and once again, beauty doesn't always come with the rest of the 'complete package'.....but, looking sure can be fun eh!


Unfortunately, I think this may be he next ironic trend. As more and more men are judged and ranked and valued for their looks, they are turning more and more to things like cosmetic surgery, and developing many of the self esteem and body image problems facing women --eating disorders being a very good example.


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## naiveonedave

always_alone said:


> Unfortunately, I think this may be he next ironic trend. As more and more men are judged and ranked and valued for their looks, they are turning more and more to things like cosmetic surgery, and developing many of the self esteem and body image problems facing women --eating disorders being a very good example.


I agree, enter manscaping.


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