# Why do women put up with this?



## kekkek (Apr 5, 2018)

I am just reading the latest #Metoo accusations against the Metoo advocate Schneiderman, who abused women himself.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news...-new-yorks-attorney-general-of-physical-abuse

The article is just shocking, although there have been a series of these shocks over the past months. But in this case, several highly educated, professional women remained in a relationship with this slimeball despite repeated slaps, chokes, and degrading comments (called one his "brown slave").

Do people really not know to get out after the first slap or choke in a short term dating relationship? I understand better some of the stories here about women with no resources who struggle to leave, or who have years of marriage and kids, but these people from the "elite"? Is it that bad out there that women would not run screaming from this kind of behavior immediately? Are women that clueless? Are there so many awful men? 

I am baffled and sad from all of this.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Before replying, I would like to know if you really want to know the psychological dynamic or if you just want a black and white determination that really the victim is to blame for staying. I have some insight as to the why having working in a battered women's shelter for some time.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

It used to ask myself the same question. Why would a woman stay with an abusive monster? Why does she keep taking him back? 

It took me many years to realize that there are women who actually _like_ this, in some twisted way. They don't stay _in spite_ of the abuse, but rather _because_ of it. The relationship dynamic is sick and twisted. But basically, he is a very "powerful" man and demonstrates this through physical dominance. This strength is attractive to her somehow. He is the kind of man who could defend a family. Powerful enough to hunt for food and fight off predators. He'll make children that are equally tough. 

There is just an unfortunate dark side to human nature. Look at how many teen girls develop an attraction to "bad boys". Why would you want that bookish nerd when there's that mysterious stranger who rides in on his motorcycle with his criminal record?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Tatsuhiko said:


> It used to ask myself the same question. Why would a woman stay with an abusive monster? Why does she keep taking him back?
> 
> It took me many years to realize that there are women who actually _like_ this, in some twisted way. They don't stay _in spite_ of the abuse, but rather _because_ of it. The relationship dynamic is sick and twisted. But basically, he is a very "powerful" man and demonstrates this through physical dominance. This strength is attractive to her somehow. He is the kind of man who could defend a family. Powerful enough to hunt for food and fight off predators. He'll make children that are equally tough.
> 
> There is just an unfortunate dark side to human nature. Look at how many teen girls develop an attraction to "bad boys". Why would you want that bookish nerd when there's that mysterious stranger who rides in on his motorcycle with his criminal record?


I wonder what you base this on.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder what you base this on.


Life experience and observation. No, it's not a pretty thing for a woman to acknowledge about her personality. Nor would men be inclined to admit that they have this latent violent, abusive side to them that might present itself under certain conditions. And for the record, I find the man's behavior more reprehensible in these situations. I've never been in any kind of dom/sub relationship, but I believe these kinds of relationships are a fantasy manifestation of this dark side we all have. Some people take the fantasy further and make it a reality, e.g. Schneiderman.


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## kekkek (Apr 5, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> Before replying, I would like to know if you really want to know the psychological dynamic or if you just want a black and white determination that really the victim is to blame for staying. I have some insight as to the why having working in a battered women's shelter for some time.


No, I'm not trying to be judgmental. I understand that there can be a lot of reasons. I would be interested in hearing your opinions. But I guess I am wondering why this is so *common*. This guy seemed to have no problem finding a series of girlfriends who accepted his slaps for a while. And were wondering if things would get better rather than telling everyone he was a drunken ***.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

NobodySpecial. I would like to know as well.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

People have free will and its on them if they accept this. I just feel sorry for the children that have no choice but to be put in this situation because they have f**ked up parents.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

There are commonalities to the stories that are only recently being more openly talked about, though not universal very common. The relationship starts with no red flags. The victim (it remains unclear if the similarities in patterns for male victims is the same since conversation around that is still very taboo and the victim shaming can be very, very bad) is nurturing and, as with what we think of a good relationship is loving and caring to the not-yet abuser. The victim can be happy that they have found a deep emotional connection. The abuser starts very appreciative, happy and reciprocal over the loving and caring. Over time, usually quite a bit of time, the reciprocity and appreciation fades and the caring becomes a need that is escalated. At the same time, connection that the victim would be getting elsewhere is slowly and systematically removed. Jealousy, imagined slights, practical matters and more are used as reasons to break the victims connections as part of putting the relationship first. None of these seem egregious at the time. They seem reasonable. The small attacks on the victim's self esteem and feeling of value have begun or are beginning. The disconnection from supportive people who could remind the victim of their value are removed along with practical supports that allow them to make their own decisions. You often see money control as part of it.

When the first physical attack happens, usually at a near by object, the seeds have been planted. The violent outburst is followed by wicked remorse. It will never happen again. It is often combined with how much the abuser needs the victim, s/he loves the victim so much. The sunshine and light period follows. The cycle of violence and remorse and sunshine escalates at a rate that makes it difficult for the victim to see a pattern.

By the time the victim can see a pattern, the victim is isolated, may have kids for whom she or he is responsible, has no financial resources and fears retaliation up to and including death of him or herself and kids for leaving.

This is the short version...


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## kekkek (Apr 5, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> There are commonalities to the stories that are only recently being more openly talked about, though not universal very common. The relationship starts with no red flags...
> This is the short version...


Thank you for the description Ms. Special. Kids, financial dependence, emotional connection, and a gradual escalation of conflict are quite understandable. 

But my reading of the Schneiderman case is quite different. Independent, professional women were attracted to him because he was powerful and showered them with attention (not love) initially. But his "mean streak" of physical and verbal abuse, and heavy drinking, seems to have manifested itself very early. At least as described in the article, he showed no remorse about his physical attacks, but rather denied or deflected attention from them. And yet these highly educated, society women, who were independent and had not been in very long relationships with him, did not run screaming. They waited for something to change, rationalizing things to themselves and internalizing the abuse. It seems that they too could not believe that a very powerful, successful man could really be like that.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> There are commonalities to the stories that are only recently being more openly talked about, though not universal very common. The relationship starts with no red flags. The victim (it remains unclear if the similarities in patterns for male victims is the same since conversation around that is still very taboo and the victim shaming can be very, very bad) is nurturing and, as with what we think of a good relationship is loving and caring to the not-yet abuser. The victim can be happy that they have found a deep emotional connection. The abuser starts very appreciative, happy and reciprocal over the loving and caring. Over time, usually quite a bit of time, the reciprocity and appreciation fades and the caring becomes a need that is escalated. At the same time, connection that the victim would be getting elsewhere is slowly and systematically removed. Jealousy, imagined slights, practical matters and more are used as reasons to break the victims connections as part of putting the relationship first. None of these seem egregious at the time. They seem reasonable. The small attacks on the victim's self esteem and feeling of value have begun or are beginning. The disconnection from supportive people who could remind the victim of their value are removed along with practical supports that allow them to make their own decisions. You often see money control as part of it.
> 
> When the first physical attack happens, usually at a near by object, the seeds have been planted. The violent outburst is followed by wicked remorse. It will never happen again. It is often combined with how much the abuser needs the victim, s/he loves the victim so much. The sunshine and light period follows. The cycle of violence and remorse and sunshine escalates at a rate that makes it difficult for the victim to see a pattern.
> 
> ...


So, the trend is to break their self-esteem/isolate them and then start to physically abuse them? I think you have to be a certain type to fall into this, like someone that was raised in this environment and has accepted it as a norm. I also do tend to think there is a trend that co-dependent people are sought out by Narcs and Abusers since they are easier to dominate.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

kekkek said:


> Thank you for the description Ms. Special. Kids, financial dependence, emotional connection, and a gradual escalation of conflict are quite understandable.
> 
> But my reading of the Schneiderman case is quite different. Independent, professional women were attracted to him because he was powerful and showered them with attention (not love) initially. But his "mean streak" of physical and verbal abuse, and heavy drinking, seems to have manifested itself very early. At least as described in the article, he showed no remorse about his physical attacks, but rather denied or deflected attention from them. And yet these highly educated, society women, who were independent and had not been in very long relationships with him, did not run screaming. They waited for something to change, rationalizing things to themselves and internalizing the abuse. It seems that they too could not believe that a very powerful, successful man could really be like that.


Sometimes people will put up with awful crap because they see it as a way to achieve a goal. In this case, which admittedly I'm not that well read on, it seems this guy was in a position to boost their careers. Now that his usefulness is used up they can take him down in revenge.

There you go @NobodySpecial, there's your victim blaming. >


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

Tatsuhiko said:


> It used to ask myself the same question. Why would a woman stay with an abusive monster? Why does she keep taking him back?
> 
> It took me many years to realize that there are women who actually _like_ this, in some twisted way. They don't stay _in spite_ of the abuse, but rather _because_ of it. The relationship dynamic is sick and twisted. But basically, he is a very "powerful" man and demonstrates this through physical dominance. This strength is attractive to her somehow. He is the kind of man who could defend a family. Powerful enough to hunt for food and fight off predators. He'll make children that are equally tough.
> 
> There is just an unfortunate dark side to human nature. Look at how many teen girls develop an attraction to "bad boys". Why would you want that bookish nerd when there's that mysterious stranger who rides in on his motorcycle with his criminal record?



I think you are way-oversimplifying a much more complex power dynamic. Yes, I'm sure there is a very, very small minority of women who are attracted to this type of bully (just as there are men who fall for abusive women), however, the vast majority of people who find themselves in these positions are usually metaphorically cornered between a multitude of factors that tend to argue against one another. 

Many women, for example, are raised for the most part with the concept that a "lady" or a "good girl" does not raise her voice, her hand, make waves, or does anything that might make another party uncomfortable. It's extremely deep conditioning that goes back generations, especially if there are other pressing facets like cultural or religious expectations that limit a woman's confidence in speaking up for herself. 

There is also C-PTSD, and I feel like in a large number of the cases where people find themselves repeatedly in bad situations this is a driving force. I don't know whether you've ever done any genuine research into the psychological reasons why someone ends up with repetitive abusers, but a basic search on this disorder would clear up a lot. 

C-PTSD (or Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) isn't like normal PTSD where there was one incident that shook up your "normal" life. It comes from either a multitude of traumatic events outside of your control, various forms of abuse that you were exposed to during your developmental years, and/or long-term exposure to a trauma where your independence was not an available factor. C-PTSD actually changes the physical structure of the fight-or-flight part of the brain, usually enlarging it and making it a large contributing part with how to respond in a situation where your safety is in danger. Some people who are developed within that context (i.e. abuse at home, abusive partners in the past, etc), sometimes find themselves repeatedly in those situations because they quite literally don't know anything else. Think of it as blood-in-the-water, predators and abusers typically can spot someone they believe they can manipulate and if the person being manipulated is quite literally physically predisposed to functioning in chaos, they'll find themselves caught in a net time and again. They _don't_ want it, they _don't_ like it, but they don't know how to escape it, and oftentimes "normal" people don't have the time, patience, or compassion to handle a relationship with a person broken from abuse. 

Aside from that fact, it is also incredibly easy to freeze in the face of danger, especially since many, many women are told early in life that if someone is hurting you, for the sake of surviving the encounter try to be compliant and helpful and they might let you go. Have you ever been in a position where your survival or well-being hung in the balance? You don't exactly have the ability to just go karate kid on an assailant, there are too many factors to take into consideration from the potential physical harm to societal abandonment (victims of abuse continue to face potential backlash in speaking up), to the legal ramifications for defending yourself. 

You can fight back as hard as you want, but you might also be looking at facing charges yourself, or losing your hard-earned job because a person of power is abusing you and can destroy your livelihood. Did you know that in several states in the U.S. a woman cannot hope for a rape conviction unless she "leaves enough physical evidence of defense" on the body of her assailant, but at the same time will also have to face assault charges herself? That's telling women that not only do they have to risk their safety in the moment of assault, but that in protecting themselves they have to be willing to possibly go to prison as well. It's absolutely backwards and many laws need to be reviewed and rewritten if not totally thrown out. Spousal rape was only recently removed from the books, so how much longer do you think it's going to take to fully protect and prosecute domestic abuse on any level if people, like yourself, believe they


> like


 it. It perpetuates a false narrative that allows for the public to turn their backs on abuse cases because who wants to help someone out of a situation if they "like" it.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> People have free will and its on them if they accept this. I just feel sorry for the children that have no choice but to be put in this situation because they have f**ked up parents.


But will you still feel sorry for the children when they grow up stuck in the same mentality their abused parents likely had? Or is there an age cutoff for sympathy? Parents who continue cycles of abuse are doing just that, continuing _cycles_ that they themselves were exposed to. 

You say people have free will, but do you understand how easy it is to break free will? I suggest you learn how elephants are broken, it's actually quite similar to how easy it is to condition a developing mind to believe their free will is lesser than that of another.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> You can fight back as hard as you want, but you might also be looking at facing charges yourself, or losing your hard-earned job because a person of power is abusing you and can destroy your livelihood. Did you know that in several states in the U.S. a woman cannot hope for a rape conviction unless she "leaves enough physical evidence of defense" on the body of her assailant, but at the same time will also have to face assault charges herself? That's telling women that not only do they have to risk their safety in the moment of assault, but that in protecting themselves they have to be willing to possibly go to prison as well. It's absolutely backwards and many laws need to be reviewed and rewritten if not totally thrown out. Spousal rape was only recently removed from the books, so how much longer do you think it's going to take to fully protect and prosecute domestic abuse on any level if people, like yourself, believe they it. It perpetuates a false narrative that allows for the public to turn their backs on abuse cases because who wants to help someone out of a situation if they "like" it.


I don't know of any state that would prosecute anyone for self-defense. Rape is just very hard to prove and nobody want to do it unless there is a boatload of evidence. And unfortunately that is very rarely the instance. And there have been far too many cases of vindictive women filing false claims or Rape or DV and sending innocent men to jail or ruining their careers.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> But will you still feel sorry for the children when they grow up stuck in the same mentality their abused parents likely had? Or is there an age cutoff for sympathy? Parents who continue cycles of abuse are doing just that, continuing _cycles_ that they themselves were exposed to.
> 
> You say people have free will, but do you understand how easy it is to break free will? I suggest you learn how elephants are broken, it's actually quite similar to how easy it is to condition a developing mind to believe their free will is lesser than that of another.


Well, thats the point someone has break that cycle. Its not going to be the child that is powerless. Its going to be them as adults evaluating their bad choices once they are an adult and making changes in their life. The ones that keep repeating such cycles of abuse and bringing children into that warped life, I have no sympathy for. They keep thinking with their hindquarters instead of their brains. It's like saying this kid was sexually abused as a child, so when he starts becoming a child molester, we must have compassion because it was pre-destined.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I don't know of any state that would prosecute anyone for self-defense. Rape is just very hard to prove and nobody want to do it unless there is a boatload of evidence. And unfortunately that is very rarely the instance. And there have been far too many cases of vindictive women filing false claims or Rape or DV and sending innocent men to jail or ruining their careers.


Many people believe that part of the evidence of a rape are signs of a physical struggle. Unfortunately not everyone can fight back during sexual assault, and so the situation can become easily dismissed as a "misunderstanding." You are also legally limited in what you can use to defend yourself depending on your age and region. For example, when I was a teen, I wanted to purchase pepper spray since I was getting tired of men pulling over their cars and trying to get me to get in them. I didn't want to be without an option. But when I went to purchase it, I was denied it. A cop then explained to me that it is illegal for an underage girl to carry a weapon (which pepper spray is categorized as), and that even if I were to use it in a moment of self defense, the person I hit it with would have full legal rights to press assault charges against me, particularly if they came away from the situation with more physical signs of assault than I did. When I asked the cop what I should do then if someone were to attack me, the cop told me flat out to be calm, let it happen, and hope that enough evidence was left on me to pursue a case. It's the same thing with those crap laws that allow a burglar the right to sue the owner of a home they invade if they happen to get hurt on the premises. 

What is particularly frustrating about prosecuting sexual assault, is that for the small number of women who actually report it, an even smaller number get taken seriously and move forward with evidence collection. Did you know that currently there are tens of thousands of untested rape kits going back to the 1970s? If people were really as worried about wrongful convictions as they claim to be, wouldn't they also, then, pursue the means to make sure that those mistakes don't happen again? But they don't, instead they claim that there are more false claims than true ones, and use those false statistics to close the door to justice for thousands upon thousands of victims.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Well, thats the point someone has break that cycle. Its not going to be the child that is powerless. Its going to be them as adults evaluating their bad choices once they are an adult and making changes in their life. The ones that keep repeating such cycles of abuse and bringing children into that warped life, I have no sympathy for. They keep thinking with their hindquarters instead of their brains. It's like saying this kid was sexually abused as a child, so when he starts becoming a child molester, we must have compassion because it was pre-destined.


Not predestined. But the truth of the matter is that shame is a poor motivator. The stories we have indicate that the abused become the abusers. Healing is only done with facing truths. It is almost impossible to change without facing truth and almost impossible to face truth without compassion. Change comes from compassion. Compassion should not be confused with excusing.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> Many people believe that part of the evidence of a rape are signs of a physical struggle. Unfortunately not everyone can fight back during sexual assault, and so the situation can become easily dismissed as a "misunderstanding." You are also legally limited in what you can use to defend yourself depending on your age and region. For example, when I was a teen, I wanted to purchase pepper spray since I was getting tired of men pulling over their cars and trying to get me to get in them. I didn't want to be without an option. But when I went to purchase it, I was denied it. A cop then explained to me that it is illegal for an underage girl to carry a weapon (which pepper spray is categorized as), and that even if I were to use it in a moment of self defense, the person I hit it with would have full legal rights to press assault charges against me, particularly if they came away from the situation with more physical signs of assault than I did. When I asked the cop what I should do then if someone were to attack me, the cop told me flat out to be calm, let it happen, and hope that enough evidence was left on me to pursue a case. It's the same thing with those crap laws that allow a burglar the right to sue the owner of a home they invade if they happen to get hurt on the premises.
> 
> What is particularly frustrating about prosecuting sexual assault, is that for the small number of women who actually report it, an even smaller number get taken seriously and move forward with evidence collection. Did you know that currently there are tens of thousands of untested rape kits going back to the 1970s? If people were really as worried about wrongful convictions as they claim to be, wouldn't they also, then, pursue the means to make sure that those mistakes don't happen again? But they don't, instead they claim that there are more false claims than true ones, and use those false statistics to close the door to justice for thousands upon thousands of victims.


I don't care what the laws say. I would never tell my daughter to just stay calm and let it happen. I would tell her to scratch his eyeballs out if she had to or smash his head open with any object near by. Nobody in a courtroom is gonna convict someone that was being raped. Especially a woman against a much larger male.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Well, thats the point someone has break that cycle. Its not going to be the child that is powerless. Its going to be them as adults evaluating their bad choices once they are an adult and making changes in their life. The ones that keep repeating such cycles of abuse and bringing children into that warped life, I have no sympathy for. They keep thinking with their hindquarters instead of their brains. *It's like saying this kid was sexually abused as a child, so when he starts becoming a child molester, we must have compassion because it was pre-destined*.


That's a pretty poor argument and isn't remotely the same thing. What would be a more mature and adult response as a society would be to reform and develop rehabilitation, therapy and abuse-recognition options. I'm a survivor of child abuse, and do you know how many adults recognized it? None, because they didn't know what to look for. So many children slip under the radar because no one is looking for them let alone directly at them. I was only able to recognize it through exposure to higher education (a privilege not afforded to many). There are currently extremely limited resources dedicated to identifying and helping those who are victims of abuse, and even still, if you role the dice and get lucky, it's still a life-long weight that you carry until death. Like I said, it physically redevelops your brain, that is not something that will ever change. It is an inherent part of how you view the world, much like someone who grows up in a war-zone and then is expected to be a functioning adult in a new peace environment. People return to what they know, even if it is detrimental to their well-being, simply because they have mentally and physically conditioned to survive in those environments. And given the mass population of "normal" people who not only refuse to help, let alone acknowledge, the extreme depths these conditions are rooted in, it's not surprising how often people who genuinely need help fall under the rim of society. 

If the children of abuse situations grow up seeing that the world did not care about them at their most vulnerable, how do you expect them to suddenly know how to break that cycle let alone readily trust someone to help? Conditioning is a strong force, especially when it begins at an early age and when it becomes a full-blown psychological disorder, treatment options become more nuanced and difficult to find. It is not remotely an easy or simple process. 

And it's not an issue of "thinking with their hindquarters." Accidental pregnancies happen to everyone, and depending on someone's religious or cultural ideology, it is expected, even in cases of rape. And what about those who don't procreate, do they have your sympathy as adults then? What do you expect people to do when they know that people like you could not care less about what happened to them. If their own self-worth was destroyed before it was given a chance to develop, how can you believe that they would just suddenly turn 18 and magically have the clarity and esteem to address the darkest parts of themselves? "Normal" people have a hard enough time addressing minor issues, think about the difficulty it would be to try to find some semblance of value within yourself to consider worth saving when all you've ever been conditioned to believe is that people would rather brush you aside as a nuisance than bother asking what happened to you? 

You say you have no sympathy for people who continue cycles, then I guess that means you also have no sympathy for the masses of society who contribute equally to those cycles as well either through ignorance or basic complacency. Are you willing to hold them accountable the way you so readily do to those already under the thumb of an abuser?


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I don't care what the laws say. I would never tell my daughter to just stay calm and let it happen. I would tell her to scratch his eyeballs out if she had to or smash his head open with any object near by. Nobody in a courtroom is gonna convict someone that was being raped. *Especially a woman against a much larger male*.


That's an extremely idealistic (and unfortunately not entirely realistic) viewpoint. Those are also interesting qualifiers, considering the dynamic of rape is usually between friends or family members. What about the women who are charged with raping men, or what if a large woman is raped by a smaller man? There are a wide range of dynamics that play out with sexual assault, including the range of means to incapacitate a person (including using personal status or role as a family member to subdue a victim). Have you ever witnessed the process of conviction? Or are you basing your beliefs of how a courtroom or judge would respond on your own personal wishes? Because it isn't that simple, and more often than not a jury isn't even involved. Just recently a judge allowed a father to walk despite there being a massive amount of evidence that he was regularly raping his 10 year old daughter. It was never brought to a jury. Do you know what his reason was for letting him go? The judge feared for how the conviction would affect the man's livelihood. These types of judges are everywhere, and you never know when you might get one. It is far from a perfect system and not remotely like how it is presented on television.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I don't care what the laws say. I would never tell my daughter to just stay calm and let it happen. I would tell her to scratch his eyeballs out if she had to or smash his head open with any object near by.


Do you have said daughter? This is not great advice. Forget that the freeze part of the fight, flight or flee instinct for survival might kick in, it can be the RIGHT survival instinct.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

_Fifty Shades of Grey_ depicted graphic sexual violence on the part of a powerful man towards his mistress. The book was a bestseller among women. Go figure.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> That's a pretty poor argument and isn't remotely the same thing. What would be a more mature and adult response as a society would be to reform and develop rehabilitation, therapy and abuse-recognition options. I'm a survivor of child abuse, and do you know how many adults recognized it? None, because they didn't know what to look for. So many children slip under the radar because no one is looking for them let alone directly at them. I was only able to recognize it through exposure to higher education (a privilege not afforded to many). There are currently extremely limited resources dedicated to identifying and helping those who are victims of abuse, and even still, if you role the dice and get lucky, it's still a life-long weight that you carry until death. Like I said, it physically redevelops your brain, that is not something that will ever change. It is an inherent part of how you view the world, much like someone who grows up in a war-zone and then is expected to be a functioning adult in a new peace environment. People return to what they know, even if it is detrimental to their well-being, simply because they have mentally and physically conditioned to survive in those environments. And given the mass population of "normal" people who not only refuse to help, let alone acknowledge, the extreme depths these conditions are rooted in, it's not surprising how often people who genuinely need help fall under the rim of society.
> 
> If the children of abuse situations grow up seeing that the world did not care about them at their most vulnerable, how do you expect them to suddenly know how to break that cycle let alone readily trust someone to help? Conditioning is a strong force, especially when it begins at an early age and when it becomes a full-blown psychological disorder, treatment options become more nuanced and difficult to find. It is not remotely an easy or simple process.
> 
> ...


I have sympathy for them until they procreate and create a whole new generation of victims. You can't count on strangers to help you if they don't know any better. The people, teachers or anyone in authority, that turn a blind eye when someone comes in with bruises all over them should be held accountable. Any mother that lets her husband beat on her kids has to know that's not right, I just can't understand or have sympathy for her. Of course, I haven't been in their shoes, but I've found instances where I've been in bad situations and learned to not repeat it or address it in a positive way. That is all I can draw from.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Many wives are taught that they must submit to their husbands. It is part of their culture to do so. Fighting against this will often have them outcast by their peers and support group to later be ostracized by the very group who should have been most supportive.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Many wives are taught that they must submit to their husbands. It is part of their culture to do so. Fighting against this will often have them outcast by their peers and support group to later be ostracized by the very group who should have been most supportive.


Peers, family of origin...


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## TheBohannons (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> Do you have said daughter? This is not great advice. Forget that the freeze part of the fight, flight or flee instinct for survival might kick in, it can be the RIGHT survival instinct.


I have a daughter, and she has been taught to resist assault by any means necessary. I feel it is very important that our daughters be taught WHEN AND HOW to resist. Bullies often attack the weak, and if they knowthere will be a fight, then they will withdraw. Hesitation can cost you.

I am not saying this is right for every one, but I would much rather she be taught to defend herself than not. Women in my family tree were not taught to be passive.

Worse case scenario, she will call her dad, who carries 2 guns.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Fantasy and reality are very different things. 

Separately from that, many people (men and women) enjoy *consensual* BDSM play. The key is "consensual". It doesn't sound like there was consent in this case. 






Tatsuhiko said:


> _Fifty Shades of Grey_ depicted graphic sexual violence on the part of a powerful man towards his mistress. The book was a bestseller among women. Go figure.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> That's an extremely idealistic (and unfortunately not entirely realistic) viewpoint. Those are also interesting qualifiers, considering the dynamic of rape is usually between friends or family members. What about the women who are charged with raping men, or what if a large woman is raped by a smaller man? There are a wide range of dynamics that play out with sexual assault, including the range of means to incapacitate a person (including using personal status or role as a family member to subdue a victim). Have you ever witnessed the process of conviction? Or are you basing your beliefs of how a courtroom or judge would respond on your own personal wishes? Because it isn't that simple, and more often than not a jury isn't even involved. Just recently a judge allowed a father to walk despite there being a massive amount of evidence that he was regularly raping his 10 year old daughter. It was never brought to a jury. Do you know what his reason was for letting him go? The judge feared for how the conviction would affect the man's livelihood. These types of judges are everywhere, and you never know when you might get one. It is far from a perfect system and not remotely like how it is presented on television.


Then that judge needs to be brought on charges and removed from the bench if he is ignoring compelling evidence. I never really understood grown men being phsyically abused by women or even raped. I mean if a woman hits me, I'd restrain her or just push her ass down.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There are many reasons people don't leave abusive relationships - I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all answer. Sometimes people feel too invested in a relationship, so they will put up with a little abuse. Then having accepted that, they accept a little more. They may not realize how bad it has gotten.

Sometimes is for practical reasons. Sometimes is real fear of retaliation. Sometimes the abuser isolates the victim and they have little choice on escaping. 

Sometimes people don't realize that their relationship is abnormal. They just assume that all men beat their girlfriends.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> There are commonalities to the stories that are only recently being more openly talked about, though not universal very common. The relationship starts with no red flags. The victim (it remains unclear if the similarities in patterns for male victims is the same since conversation around that is still very taboo and the victim shaming can be very, very bad) is nurturing and, as with what we think of a good relationship is loving and caring to the not-yet abuser. The victim can be happy that they have found a deep emotional connection. The abuser starts very appreciative, happy and reciprocal over the loving and caring. Over time, usually quite a bit of time, the reciprocity and appreciation fades and the caring becomes a need that is escalated. At the same time, connection that the victim would be getting elsewhere is slowly and systematically removed. Jealousy, imagined slights, practical matters and more are used as reasons to break the victims connections as part of putting the relationship first. None of these seem egregious at the time. They seem reasonable. The small attacks on the victim's self esteem and feeling of value have begun or are beginning. The disconnection from supportive people who could remind the victim of their value are removed along with practical supports that allow them to make their own decisions. You often see money control as part of it.
> 
> When the first physical attack happens, usually at a near by object, the seeds have been planted. The violent outburst is followed by wicked remorse. It will never happen again. It is often combined with how much the abuser needs the victim, s/he loves the victim so much. The sunshine and light period follows. The cycle of violence and remorse and sunshine escalates at a rate that makes it difficult for the victim to see a pattern.
> 
> ...





UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> So, the trend is to break their self-esteem/isolate them and then start to physically abuse them? I think you have to be a certain type to fall into this, like someone that was raised in this environment and has accepted it as a norm. I also do tend to think there is a trend that co-dependent people are sought out by Narcs and Abusers since they are easier to dominate.


While this is the short version, I think this type of thing also plays out for men and women with just plain old abuse in general. Emotional abuse and sometimes it is like relationship abuse if that is even a word. 

This happens with alcoholics and drug addicts. At first you think it is not a big deal, you get attached and you are kind of stuck. 

With my Ex W, she kept her drug abuse hidden as she was a pain management patient. But behind the scenes, she was augmenting the approved drugs to get wasted. 

To me it looked like she was "Sick". Then they move you through one crisis or another for years and you never have time to think about what is going on, then of course you already have kids. 

For me it took a stroke and three days alone in the hospital for me to get any clarity, but once I finally realized what was actually going on, I WAS OUT. 

The way that these people operate is insidious. They are masters of manipulation. 

Do you guys think that is just the way that they are or do they learn that behavior some how?


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

TheBohannons said:


> I have a daughter, and she has been taught to resist assault by any means necessary. I feel it is very important that our daughters be taught WHEN AND HOW to resist. Bullies often attack the weak, and if they knowthere will be a fight, then they will withdraw. Hesitation can cost you.
> 
> I am not saying this is right for every one, but I would much rather she be taught to defend herself than not. Women in my family tree were not taught to be passive.
> 
> Worse case scenario, she will call her dad, who carries 2 guns.


How is that not good advice, but bend over and take it is? Of course, I'd tell her to fight like hell. And after the cops better find him or I'd probably hunt him down, cuz I'm a little crazy like that.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> That's an extremely idealistic (and unfortunately not entirely realistic) viewpoint. Those are also interesting qualifiers, considering the dynamic of rape is usually between friends or family members. What about the women who are charged with raping men, or what if a large woman is raped by a smaller man? There are a wide range of dynamics that play out with sexual assault, including the range of means to incapacitate a person (including using personal status or role as a family member to subdue a victim). Have you ever witnessed the process of conviction? Or are you basing your beliefs of how a courtroom or judge would respond on your own personal wishes? Because it isn't that simple, and more often than not a jury isn't even involved. Just recently a judge allowed a father to walk despite there being a massive amount of evidence that he was regularly raping his 10 year old daughter. It was never brought to a jury. Do you know what his reason was for letting him go? The judge feared for how the conviction would affect the man's livelihood. These types of judges are everywhere, and you never know when you might get one. It is far from a perfect system and not remotely like how it is presented on television.


Tell us the name of this judge so we can protest him until he is disbarred.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

TheBohannons said:


> I have a daughter, and she has been taught to resist assault by any means necessary. I feel it is very important that our daughters be taught WHEN AND HOW to resist. Bullies often attack the weak, and if they knowthere will be a fight, then they will withdraw. Hesitation can cost you.
> 
> I am not saying this is right for every one, but I would much rather she be taught to defend herself than not. Women in my family tree were not taught to be passive.
> 
> Worse case scenario, she will call her dad, who carries 2 guns.


It is not the people that vary but the situation. Fighting an active rape can get you killed. And I am just trying to fathom getting to a phone while being forcibly raped. For me, I'd have called 911, not my Dad. But since I could not move, the point was moot.


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## TheBohannons (Apr 6, 2018)

I don't want to come off as some macho dad preaching what is right. I have heard the silent screams of rape.

Teach your daughters how to defend themselves. By any means necessary.


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## TheBohannons (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> It is not the people that vary but the situation. Fighting an active rape can get you killed. And I am just trying to fathom getting to a phone while being forcibly raped. For me, I'd have called 911, not my Dad. But since I could not move, the point was moot.


I agree with this. But outside of the "stranger" rape with a weapon, most rapist are known to the victim. In the case of the scenario presented in this article, If a punch to the eye had followed the slap, chances are that would be the end of it.

And as to calling the dad, it is how things get handled where we are from. Of course you call the authorities, however If you strike a woman, be prepared to meet her brothers, cousins, dad and her mom.
Once again, I am not saying this is the right approach in ALL circumstances, but I believe it is the correct approach in most.

I stand by the approach that all young women be taught to defend themselves. On a date, in the workplace or walking down the street.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

If you're talking about this specific case, I think a lot has to do with how he was powerful and influential. If someone is attracted to power and wants to run in those circles, they may figure they have to make some sacrifices for the relationship. It seems to be somewhat common in those kinds of circles that people often marry and stay in bad marriages because they want the power and luxury it offers.

If it's just normal, middle-class people, it's probably different. It's probably more of the effect of being with an abusive partner when the victim feels they are worthless and deserves all the bad things that are being done. Those victims may also have fewer resources to change their situation. Leaving the house may mean a huge drop in lifestyle--even becoming homeless.

And it's not just women. We have a lot of threads here from men who are in sexless marriages or they are a doormat to their cheating wife. And in a lot of these cases, these men would have the resources to leave and start over, yet they stay and suffer.

Or what about being in a terrible job? How many people stick it out with a boss who berates and denigrates them? 

Maybe it comes down to a fear of loss and the unknown. It's more comfortable to stay in your current situation than let go and not know what comes next.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

TheBohannons said:


> I agree with this. But outside of the "stranger" rape with a weapon, most rapist are known to the victim. In the case of the scenario presented in this article, If a punch to the eye had followed the slap, chances are that would be the end of it.


I remember one woman's story from the shelter. She failed to see herself as a victim because she always gave as good as she got... until she didn't. From the several experiences I had with threat of violence, meeting violence with violence always escalated to more violence. This is why any self defense educator worth his salt will not advocating fighting back unless you can get the assaulter disabled enough to flee. Otherwise you just fuel the anger and hate. Justice for the perpetrator by family and friends after the fact is all well and good. But in the moment, that is not the priority.


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## TheBohannons (Apr 6, 2018)

Once again, Somebodyspecial, I am not in disagreement, since I said "when" is part of the equation. Most predators will feel out their prey for weakness. In this case the verbal "you are a *****" was a test of how she would react. This is a test that you can not fail. At this point, I prefer not to push my point of view. It is a distasteful subject and I have no need to visualise danger for my child. I can not be there to protect her 24/7, however I can rest a little better knowing that in MOST cases, she is aware and can handle herself.

Off to work, blessings to all.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I have sympathy for them until they procreate and create a whole new generation of victims. You can't count on strangers to help you if they don't know any better. The people, teachers or anyone in authority, that turn a blind eye when *someone comes in with bruises all over them* should be held accountable. Any mother that lets her husband beat on her kids has to know that's not right, I just can't understand or have sympathy for her. Of course, I haven't been in their shoes, but I've found instances where I've been in bad situations and learned to not repeat it or address it in a positive way. That is all I can draw from.


You do understand that abuse is not always physical, right? Most abuse goes under the radar because it doesn't leave a visible mark on the body. Signs of sexual and mental abuse tend to show in the form of behavior, but unfortunately that behavior plays out in ways that authority figures (or even peers) tend to assign poor-character to. Instead of viewing a child as unruly, or misbehaving, or even being incredibly shy and closed off, they should take the time to talk to the child and see if anything else is going on. For example, how many people would easily write off a "promiscuous" girl because she's exhibiting signs of a lack of self-value? Does it ever occur to them that she was likely conditioned that way based on how she was being raised? 

And again, you used procreation as the qualifier. Why are you so fixated on that being the only means of perpetuating a cycle? Do you believe that victims of child abuse should be rendered sterile just in case? It's a very odd way to approach the notion of compassion and sympathy which you continue to seem to equate with permitting and excusing poor choices. 

Yes, you draw your conclusions based on your experiences, that's all these victims are doing as well. They just happen to have a deeper and more scarred set of experiences that make the choice of how to respond much more complex than yours. While you should be glad not to have to jump through the same hoops others have to, you shouldn't allow that to discriminate who is and is not worthy of compassion. It isn't logical.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Then that judge needs to be brought on charges and removed from the bench if he is ignoring compelling evidence. I never really understood grown men being phsyically abused by women or even raped. I mean if a woman hits me, I'd restrain her or just push her ass down.


Well unfortunately judges like that hold power in their communities and not everyone is aware of their track records. People in power know how to use it to suppress others and protect their status. That's the reality of the world whether or not it's a pretty picture. 

It's a shame that you can't understand why men might be victims. Again, a large part of it comes from conditioning, for example if a boy or young man is sexually abused by a woman growing up (which happens a lot more than people realize), then they can be conditioned to freeze. Men are no different than women in potential for being broken, and oftentimes are afraid of coming forward because of people like you stating that you can't understand it since it seems so simple. 

Physical response to rape never, ever denotes consent, and men respond to physical stimulation just as women do. It isn't something anyone can fully control, and if a man finds himself cornered, subdued, or a woman is using her position of power (i.e. a boss, a teacher, a cop, etc) against the man, he may feel like he has no choice in the matter. It often comes down to weighing your options and what might be the safest, most effective means of getting away from a situation. You say that you would just restrain her or push her down. What if she's already had you physical restrained and you have nothing you can do about it (i.e. drugs, or ties). What then? Predators know what they are, and behave in calculated actions to achieve their goals.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

TheBohannons said:


> Once again, Somebodyspecial, I am not in disagreement, since I said "when" is part of the equation. Most predators will feel out their prey for weakness.


I wonder what you base this on. We are not talking about school yard bullies here. 





> In this case the verbal "you are a *****" was a test of how she would react. This is a test that you can not fail.


Good luck with that. It sure as **** did not work for me.



> At this point, I prefer not to push my point of view. It is a distasteful subject and I have no need to visualise danger for my child. I can not be there to protect her 24/7, however I can rest a little better knowing that in MOST cases, she is aware and can handle herself.
> 
> Off to work, blessings to all.


No wonder you find your point of view distasteful! For the record, I do too.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> Tell us the name of this judge so we can protest him until he is disbarred.


I believe it was in Montana around 2016, I don't remember his name, but there have been plenty like him and they are all over the place. 

When I was little, I was in a preschool (from age 3-6) that was held in the basement of a pedophile. He was let go and allowed to host to preschool because we weren't his "demographic of choice" (it was an all girl school). My parents didn't learn about this until later because it was kept from the public pretty well. He continued to molest boys, but also brought over friends of similar interests who would try to lure me and the other girls. I never fell for any of it, but it taught me early on that adult men want something of me and I felt compelled to know what it was so that I could keep myself from danger (you just get gut instincts about danger sometimes even if you don't understand the context). Judges kept allowing him to get away with this, and finally it took him moving to another state where he continued and was eventually taken down by a judge in a different region. That's how wide-spread and toxic this problem is in our court system. And like with any abuser, you typically don't know it until it's too late.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Tell us the name of this judge so we can protest him until he is disbarred.


The whole post is simplistic in the extreme where it is not straight up wrong. The judge is responsible for the rules of evidence. Until very recently, defense was legally allowed to cast the victim in all sorts of ways based on his or her past, clothing... This is not a simple issue.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> You do understand that abuse is not always physical, right?


Even forcible rape does not need to show marks. I was completely and totally disabled yet had no marks on my body.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Tatsuhiko said:


> It used to ask myself the same question. Why would a woman stay with an abusive monster? Why does she keep taking him back?
> 
> It took me many years to realize that there are women who actually _like_ this, in some twisted way. They don't stay _in spite_ of the abuse, but rather _because_ of it. The relationship dynamic is sick and twisted. But basically, he is a very "powerful" man and demonstrates this through physical dominance. This strength is attractive to her somehow. He is the kind of man who could defend a family. Powerful enough to hunt for food and fight off predators. He'll make children that are equally tough.
> 
> There is just an unfortunate dark side to human nature. Look at how many teen girls develop an attraction to "bad boys". Why would you want that bookish nerd when there's that mysterious stranger who rides in on his motorcycle with his criminal record?


I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not sure that they actually like it. I've never been physically abused, but have had my share of mental and emotional abuse in all of my relationships except the one I'm currently in. I can say that I stayed because that's what I thought I was worth. I grew up and continue to be a part of an immediate family with a strange dynamic, and I've heard that when people get into relationships, they tend to go for mates who emulate behaviours of those in their immediate family. I've been told that my opinions, thoughts and feelings aren't important and not worth hearing out, and that's the kind of men I chose, including my STBXH. I'm not blaming anything on anyone; those were my own choices, but that is what I thought I was worth, and that's why I stayed with that type of man for so long; I thought that if I was good enough, pretty enough, in-shape enough, funny enough, if I gave in to their needs/wants enough and pleased them enough, then I would finally be enough for someone. That's not accurate, and since my separation and impending divorce, I've done loads of growing as a person, and finally, at 40, realize that I am enough for some people, and will never be enough for others.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Some of the opinions here seem very lacking considering the data we have. There is plenty of research that shows the paralysis that many women experience during rape. It seems to be an evolutionary survival trait as in the way some animals play dead to survive an attack. Teaching them to fight at all costs is somewhat of an ignorant position to take. Unless you are a rapist or a victim of rape, I do not know how you could think your imagined experience would trump that of those who have been involved with rape.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Ursula said:


> I'm not blaming anything on anyone; those were my own choices, but that is what I thought I was worth, and that's why I stayed with that type of man for so long; I thought that if I was good enough, pretty enough, in-shape enough, funny enough, if I gave in to their needs/wants enough and pleased them enough, then I would finally be enough for someone. That's not accurate, and since my separation and impending divorce, I've done loads of growing as a person, and finally, at 40, realize that I am enough for some people, and will never be enough for others.


I am glad you are here, at this place. At some point we all have to understand that we are all worth being treated properly. 

You have a lot of life left, just never forget your value. 

Another thing that I learned is..."I deserve to be happy". I think that one helped me the most...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Some of the opinions here seem very lacking considering the data we have. There is plenty of research that shows the paralysis that many women experience during rape. It seems to be an evolutionary survival trait as in the way some animals play dead to survive an attack. Teaching them to fight *at all costs is somewhat of an ignorant position to take*. Unless you are a rapist or a victim of rape, I do not know how you could think your imagined experience would trump that of those who have been involved with rape.


"At all costs" is easy hyperbole for those who do not understand the potential cost. What is weird, for me, is that while the rape was pretty horrifying, the responses of the well meaning people in my life were much more devastating to me.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> Even forcible rape does not need to show marks. I was completely and totally disabled yet had no marks on my body.



Very, very true. Especially if the assailant is well-practiced or is intentionally trying to avoid leaving evidence. Just being mentally incapacitated is as good as being held down, whether by fear or drugs, or threats. When my husband's friend raped me, being isolated with a trained Marine who had weapons and means of making it worse for me made my mind shut off. He never even need to threaten anything, the situation alone was enough to paralyze me. I totally froze, and I did everything I could to get home in one piece.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> Very, very true. Especially if the assailant is well-practiced or is intentionally trying to avoid leaving evidence. Just being mentally incapacitated is as good as being held down, whether by fear or drugs, or threats. When my husband's friend raped me, being isolated with a trained Marine who had weapons and means of making it worse for me made my mind shut off. He never even need to threaten anything, the situation alone was enough to paralyze me. I totally froze, and I did everything I could to get home in one piece.


That is horrifying? Would you mind if I asked how long ago this happened? You seem more comfortable typing what happened than I do reading it. Tough gal!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> The whole post is simplistic in the extreme where it is not straight up wrong. The judge is responsible for the rules of evidence. Until very recently, defense was legally allowed to cast the victim in all sorts of ways based on his or her past, clothing... This is not a simple issue.


Yes, totally not a simple issue. But is this case the other poster referred to a real, current case? Is it a judge that is currently sitting? Where? 

There have been some judges who were forced to resign after doing stuff like this...but in the case posted here, I don't know if it is real or happened long ago. Do you? 

I know a bunch of us with pitchforks isn't going to solve the problem, but there are judges who make bad calls and they should be dealt with.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> Very, very true. Especially if the assailant is well-practiced or is intentionally trying to avoid leaving evidence. Just being mentally incapacitated is as good as being held down, whether by fear or drugs, or threats. When my husband's friend raped me, being isolated with a trained Marine who had weapons and means of making it worse for me made my mind shut off. He never even need to threaten anything, the situation alone was enough to paralyze me. I totally froze, and I did everything I could to get home in one piece.


The fight, flight or freeze of the hind brain is a very old instinct which has been honed for millennia. One has to guess your hind brain knew. I am sorry this happened to you.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

PigglyWiggly said:


> That is horrifying? Would you mind if I asked how long ago this happened? You seem more comfortable typing what happened than I do reading it. Tough gal!


It was over five years ago and honestly it's only recently that I have been able to fully process what happened to me. Because of my history with abuse as a child, the rape shut me down completely and I sort of went into a compartmentalized state that I used to dissociate and move on from it. Dissociation is like a switch that goes off with or without my control, and I credit it with a lot of my ability to face things that otherwise would be re-traumatizing. I pretty much wanted to metaphorically run as far as I could from it, even going so far as to convince myself that he must not have realized what he had done. In the last year, though, it's come to the surface finally and been a horror show to deal with. I found out that he did know what he had done, and that he was fully aware of why I had frozen. My guess is that he had known enough about my past to figure that my conditioned response could be used to his advantage. 

I wish I had pressed charges at the time, but to be honest I was terrified of the outcome. I'd been through the legal process before, and know firsthand how easy it is to dismiss a victim. I could hear the questions going off in my head and realized that my responses wouldn't have been satisfying enough. Pretty much the exchange would have been: 
"Why did you go to his house?" 
"Because we've been friends for years, and were just meeting up there before going out for the evening with other friends."
"Oh, so you're close friends? Did you ever give him any indication of wanting to be more than friends?"
"No, I have been in a long term relationship for years."
"But you went over there alone."
"I didn't know we were going to be alone."
"Why didn't you leave when you realized you were alone?"
"Because I didn't think I was in any danger from a friend."
"He must have given you some indication of his intentions."
"No, I genuinely did not know he was even capable of this."
"Clearly there was some simple misunderstanding here, a he said/she said situation."

My mind pretty much went hyperactive with how there was no way I could look like a genuine victim, and knowing how painful, invasive and humiliating the process is firsthand, I didn't want to be put through that again. Especially since he was only on leave and was about to be deployed again. That was a process I honestly couldn't comprehend trying to pursue. So I decided to cut that part of myself off, move on with life, and hope to never have to think about it again. 

One of the most difficult aspects of navigating it, though, is because we have so many mutual friends, it's been practically impossible to disclose to anyone. I finally disclosed fully to my husband and my family this past fall which was extremely difficult. One of my sisters is currently dating him and that entire mess is another nightmare entirely (and the reason why I've now had to face it). But it was brutal, and dehumanizing, and the things he did to me were meant to strip me of my value as a woman and human. I'll always have to live with those memories, and the fact that it was a betrayal on so many levels. My husband is still having trouble processing it, but knows enough about this "friend" to have believed me when I told him about it.


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## TheBohannons (Apr 6, 2018)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Teaching them to fight at all costs is somewhat of an ignorant position to take. Unless you are a rapist or a victim of rape, I do not know how you could think your imagined experience would trump that of those who have been involved with rape.


What is ignorant is to assumed that my experienced are imagined because I am male. There are those here who know who I am, IRL, and know how it was handled. 

If you read that we wrote that defense should be used in ALL occasions, then you are innacurate. And if you don't feel our approach is correct for your children then don't use it.

We are comfortable with how we raise our children. If one parent reads this and decides to teach their daughter a different approach and it prevents 1 rape or assault, then the attacks on our position will have been worth it.

We don't understand the need to attack a different point of view, but OK. Go on ahead. However it would be better not to call a position ignorant, when you yourself are ignorant of all situations.

The curtain is yours. Good day.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, totally not a simple issue. But is this case the other poster referred to a real, current case? Is it a judge that is currently sitting? Where?
> 
> There have been some judges who were forced to resign after doing stuff like this...but in the case posted here, I don't know if it is real or happened long ago. Do you?
> 
> I know a bunch of us with pitchforks isn't going to solve the problem, but there are judges who make bad calls and they should be dealt with.


I believe it was either this case or one similar, but this was what I was able to find on it:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-sentence-fury-erupts/?utm_term=.8be46d2e6ec2


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

TheBohannons said:


> What is ignorant is to assumed that my experienced are imagined because I am male. There are those here who know who I am, IRL, and know how it was handled.
> 
> If you read that we wrote that defense should be used in ALL occasions, then you are innacurate. And if you don't feel our approach is correct for your children then don't use it.
> 
> ...


you said (paraphrasing) "if they know there will be a fight, they will withdraw"....that is somewhat ignorant as we know that to not always be the case. I am sorry you don't like the word ignorant but it fits this time. If you feel "attacked", that's on you and a victim complex. I am suggesting you not advise women to fight with the belief that they WILL withdraw in every situation because we have enough data to know that this is not sound advice, despite your anecdotal evidence.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Nucking Futs said:


> Sometimes people will put up with awful crap because they see it as a way to achieve a goal. In this case, which admittedly I'm not that well read on, it seems this guy was in a position to boost their careers. Now that his usefulness is used up they can take him down in revenge.
> 
> There you go @NobodySpecial, there's your victim blaming. >


I had read that that was the reason why Anita Hill had followed Clarence Thomas when he moved from gov't office to another.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> It was over five years ago and honestly it's only recently that I have been able to fully process what happened to me. Because of my history with abuse as a child, the rape shut me down completely and I sort of went into a compartmentalized state that I used to dissociate and move on from it. Dissociation is like a switch that goes off with or without my control, and I credit it with a lot of my ability to face things that otherwise would be re-traumatizing. I pretty much wanted to metaphorically run as far as I could from it, even going so far as to convince myself that he must not have realized what he had done. In the last year, though, it's come to the surface finally and been a horror show to deal with. I found out that he did know what he had done, and that he was fully aware of why I had frozen. My guess is that he had known enough about my past to figure that my conditioned response could be used to his advantage.
> 
> I wish I had pressed charges at the time, but to be honest I was terrified of the outcome. I'd been through the legal process before, and know firsthand how easy it is to dismiss a victim. I could hear the questions going off in my head and realized that my responses wouldn't have been satisfying enough. Pretty much the exchange would have been:
> "Why did you go to his house?"
> ...


WOW....that is just....tough to read. Your husband must be in a place emotionally that I can't even imagine. Has HE needed counseling? I commend you for your strength and fortitude. You really seem to have dealt with this in the best way one could without coming out the other side feeling destroyed. If hubby ever wants to vent. PM me...I have big ears


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> You do understand that abuse is not always physical, right? Most abuse goes under the radar because it doesn't leave a visible mark on the body. Signs of sexual and mental abuse tend to show in the form of behavior, but unfortunately that behavior plays out in ways that authority figures (or even peers) tend to assign poor-character to. Instead of viewing a child as unruly, or misbehaving, or even being incredibly shy and closed off, they should take the time to talk to the child and see if anything else is going on. For example, how many people would easily write off a "promiscuous" girl because she's exhibiting signs of a lack of self-value? Does it ever occur to them that she was likely conditioned that way based on how she was being raised?
> 
> And again, you used procreation as the qualifier. Why are you so fixated on that being the only means of perpetuating a cycle? Do you believe that victims of child abuse should be rendered sterile just in case? It's a very odd way to approach the notion of compassion and sympathy which you continue to seem to equate with permitting and excusing poor choices.
> 
> Yes, you draw your conclusions based on your experiences, that's all these victims are doing as well. They just happen to have a deeper and more scarred set of experiences that make the choice of how to respond much more complex than yours. While you should be glad not to have to jump through the same hoops others have to, you shouldn't allow that to discriminate who is and is not worthy of compassion. It isn't logical.


I don't have any problem with anyone procreating, but if you do it with a man that beats and berates you and decide he is good fathering material. Well, I just have to shake my head...


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## TheBohannons (Apr 6, 2018)

Sometimes it is best to talk to the readers and not the writers. We dont understand the insinuation that teaching a child self defense wrong, and we do not care to continue the debate. So if you have young children and especially a preteen daughter, please give this some thought. While you cant prevent all rapes and assaults, you may be able to prevent the one that happens to YOUR child.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> It was over five years ago and honestly it's only recently that I have been able to fully process what happened to me. Because of my history with abuse as a child, the rape shut me down completely and I sort of went into a compartmentalized state that I used to dissociate and move on from it. Dissociation is like a switch that goes off with or without my control, and I credit it with a lot of my ability to face things that otherwise would be re-traumatizing. I pretty much wanted to metaphorically run as far as I could from it, even going so far as to convince myself that he must not have realized what he had done. In the last year, though, it's come to the surface finally and been a horror show to deal with. I found out that he did know what he had done, and that he was fully aware of why I had frozen. My guess is that he had known enough about my past to figure that my conditioned response could be used to his advantage.
> 
> I wish I had pressed charges at the time, but to be honest I was terrified of the outcome. I'd been through the legal process before, and know firsthand how easy it is to dismiss a victim. I could hear the questions going off in my head and realized that my responses wouldn't have been satisfying enough. Pretty much the exchange would have been:
> "Why did you go to his house?"
> ...


I sincerely hope that you are not further attacked for not reporting as responsible for any further rapes of his for which you are not responsible. Unfortunately that is quite common as well. Take care of yourself.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

TheBohannons said:


> Sometimes it is best to talk to the readers and not the writers. We dont understand the insinuation that teaching a child self defense wrong,


I have not seen anyone insinuate or imply that at all! My daughter and son (women are not the sole victims of rape) are both educated. WELL educated, not the knee jerk, kick 'em in the nuts nonsense. Cheers.




> and we do not care to continue the debate. So if you have young children and especially a preteen daughter, please give this some thought. While you cant prevent all rapes and assaults, you may be able to prevent the one that happens to YOUR child.


So we hope. But assuming that is even possible is terribly naive.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I don't have any problem with anyone procreating, but if you do it with a man that beats and berates you and decide he is good fathering material. Well, I just have to shake my head...


I watched my mother go through this with my father who was very emotionally abusive and controlling. People are capable of mental gymnastics that you wouldn't believe. Look at flat earthers, anti-vaccers or creationists.....facts vs feels....feels often wins


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PigglyWiggly said:


> you said (paraphrasing) "if they know there will be a fight, they will withdraw"....that is somewhat ignorant as we know that to not always be the case.


Evidence seems to suggest that is the vast minority of cases. 



> I am sorry you don't like the word ignorant but it fits this time. If you feel "attacked", that's on you and a victim complex. I am suggesting you not advise women to fight with the belief that they WILL withdraw in every situation because we have enough data to know that this is not sound advice, despite your anecdotal evidence.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

TheBohannons said:


> Sometimes it is best to talk to the readers and not the writers. We dont understand the insinuation that teaching a child self defense wrong, and we do not care to continue the debate. So if you have young children and especially a preteen daughter, please give this some thought. While you cant prevent all rapes and assaults, you may be able to prevent the one that happens to YOUR child.


I raised my daughter and taught my wife to always be aware of their environment as best they can and to make hard eye contact with anyone who looks up to no good. Once abducted or in the middle of rape, they were taught to use there best judgement as to how to SURVIVE. Sometimes that is fighting, sometimes it's not but they are the only ones who can determine what might be best for there survival at that time. I am always open to new data that may show a better approach. I am going with the data that I am aware of, ignorant as that may make me. Your input is certainly considered as I may be wrong,


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Some of the opinions here seem very lacking considering the data we have. *There is plenty of research that shows the paralysis that many women experience during rape*. It seems to be an evolutionary survival trait as in the way some animals play dead to survive an attack. Teaching them to fight at all costs is somewhat of an ignorant position to take. Unless you are a rapist or a victim of rape, I do not know how you could think your imagined experience would trump that of those who have been involved with rape.


If the bolded refers to what I think it does, then this link has a different interpretation of the science.

https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...ind-campus-response-to-sexual-assault/539211/


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> Physical response to rape never, ever denotes consent, and men respond to physical stimulation just as women do. It isn't something anyone can fully control, and if a man finds himself cornered, subdued, or a woman is using her position of power (i.e. a boss, a teacher, a cop, etc) against the man, he may feel like he has no choice in the matter. It often comes down to weighing your options and what might be the safest, most effective means of getting away from a situation. You say that you would just restrain her or push her down. *What if she's already had you physical restrained and you have nothing you can do about it (i.e. drugs, or ties). What then? Predators know what they are, and behave in calculated actions to achieve their goals.*


People who are on the ofeensive are already several steps ahead of their victims. It's unfair to call victims unprepared. Especially, in our society when any element of preparation renders the accusation of paranoia.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

PigglyWiggly said:


> WOW....that is just....tough to read. Your husband must be in a place emotionally that I can't even imagine. Has HE needed counseling? I commend you for your strength and fortitude. You really seem to have dealt with this in the best way one could without coming out the other side feeling destroyed. If hubby ever wants to vent. PM me...I have big ears



Thank you, I really appreciate it! He and I are both in individual counseling, it's been a massive relief to have on hand when things rise up to the surface. I'm extremely grateful to have him as my partner in everything, I couldn't ask for a more kind or patient husband.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> The whole post is simplistic in the extreme where it is not straight up wrong. The judge is responsible for the rules of evidence. *Until very recently, defense was legally allowed to cast the victim in all sorts of ways based on his or her past, clothing..*. This is not a simple issue.


There was a time in which the belief was "well, she's not a virgin, so what's the problem?" That applied to single and married women alike.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> If the bolded refers to what I think it does, then this link has a different interpretation of the science.
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...ind-campus-response-to-sexual-assault/539211/


What part of that article refutes my claim that research has shown that some women become paralyzed in a sexual assault situation?


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I don't have any problem with anyone procreating, but if you do it with a man that beats and berates you and decide he is good fathering material. Well, I just have to shake my head...


Again, a strange fixation on physical abuse being the main factor. You make it sound like abusers have neon signs over their heads and people just fawn over them until they regret it. Plenty of people marry someone who turns out to be someone completely different (just look at any number of posts on TAM), and usually major life changes (i.e. marriage, procreation, even job losses) can trigger the worst in someone. People don't always have signs of danger before it's too late, and in cases of some child abuse, the abuser is so well in control of the situation that they can actively hide it from the other parent. It's much more complicated than the concept you seem to be under the impression of being the norm. And again, there are usually multiple factors acting as restraints for the abused keeping them from leaving (i.e. finances, religious beliefs, social pressures, cultural boundaries, etc). I wish it was as simple as you make it out to be.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

NextTimeAround said:


> There was a time in which the belief was "well, she's not a virgin, so what's the problem?" That applied to single and married women alike.


those were the "good old days" dontcha know? Part of our society wants to go back to that time. The youth of today won't let that happen.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PigglyWiggly said:


> those were the "good old days" dontcha know? Part of our society wants to go back to that time. The youth of today won't let that happen.


This old bag is going to do her best to resist as well.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Oddly enough, choking women during sex seems like it's a "thing" now and that happening because women like it (or feel compelled to say they do), not men.

Google 'Do women like to be choked during sex' and you'll get way too many hits, mostly saying "Yes, they do" (and they're usually women).

Here's reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/sex/comments/1xtssl/choking_how_many_girls_are_into_it_and_why/ 

I know reddit is hardly scientific but I think it goes to show that this isn't quite as weird and strange as might be thought (and as weird and strange as I thought).

I'm not saying that in the OP's original story, the women wanted it. But it seems possible that the guy could have thought they did (he's still wrong, because that's not the type of thing one should just assume!).

It would seem as if the correct action for a woman (who doesn't want it) being choked within a month of dating a guy would be to stop dating the guy who did it. Yet, in the OPs story, she resumed dating him for another year or two.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> I sincerely hope that you are not further attacked for not reporting as responsible for any further rapes of his for which you are not responsible. Unfortunately that is quite common as well. Take care of yourself.


Thank you, I hope not as well. It is one of the many nasty strings that can leave a victim feeling permanently attached to their attacker. That was another reason why I finally spoke out, realizing that I likely wasn't the only one, nor will I likely be the last. I just don't know what to do with it from here on out except not fear telling people who might listen. I feel like I've recovered some power from the assault in being able to speak without feeling suppressed by judgment.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

NextTimeAround said:


> People who are on the ofeensive are already several steps ahead of their victims. It's unfair to call victims unprepared. Especially, in our society when any element of preparation renders the accusation of paranoia.


Absolutely. The paranoia accusation is a tactic that, to me at least, is related to gaslighting. It's meant to discredit a threat without actually understanding the context or reality of its presence in another person's life. It silences the individual and can make them question their own choices to protect and prepare which in turn can leave them vulnerable in a number of ways.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

PigglyWiggly said:


> What part of that article refutes my claim that research has shown that some women become paralyzed in a sexual assault situation?


If you were referring to what's called, in the article, "tonic immobility" (as in "The fear of imminent death may further elicit an extended catatonic state known as “tonic immobility,” rendering them powerless to speak or move—they feel “frozen.”).

This has become accepted science in most places but the author casts some doubts on the theory. Another part of the presumed trauma experience is memory loss, but that isn't relevant to your claim. 

I don't have an opinion on it.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> Oddly enough, choking women during sex seems like it's a "thing" now and that happening because women like it (or feel compelled to say they do), not men.
> 
> Google 'Do women like to be choked during sex' and you'll get way too many hits, mostly saying "Yes, they do" (and they're usually women).
> 
> ...



Another reason why open communication is essential in any sexual interaction. Unfortunately that level of communication is rarely ever taught and usually develops through trial and error. That's why I hate questions like "Are women into this..." "Are men into that...," because no one person can accurately represent the sexual variety of a single gender. Men and women can be extremely similar and extremely different in terms of interests, and this sort of gender divide within the world of sexual expression seems counterintuitive to healthy relationships. It should always be about the individual, and if questions or polls wish to see a range of a particular kink or interest, then it should be worded in a generalized sense, like "How many people like choking in the bedroom." Otherwise the differentiation can lead to some uneducated people believing that certain types of sexual interaction are only meant for one gender and not the other.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

One irony I find with this Schneiderin case is that in Billions (forget which cable channel), the main character, the head of SDNY prosecutors is based on him. And in his leisure time or to relieve stress, he and his wife engage in S&M. Who'da' thunk?


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> If you were referring to what's called, in the article, "tonic immobility" (as in "The fear of imminent death may further elicit an extended catatonic state known as “tonic immobility,” rendering them powerless to speak or move—they feel “frozen.”).
> 
> This has become accepted science in most places but the author casts some doubts on the theory. Another part of the presumed trauma experience is memory loss, but that isn't relevant to your claim.
> 
> I don't have an opinion on it.


"Campbell acknowledged to me that her talk incorrectly conflated freeze and tonic immobility. “That is something in later presentations I’ve learned to correct,” she said."


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

Ursula said:


> I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not sure that they actually like it. I've never been physically abused, but have had my share of mental and emotional abuse in all of my relationships except the one I'm currently in. I can say that I stayed because that's what I thought I was worth. I grew up and continue to be a part of an immediate family with a strange dynamic, and I've heard that when people get into relationships, they tend to go for mates who emulate behaviours of those in their immediate family. I've been told that my opinions, thoughts and feelings aren't important and not worth hearing out, and that's the kind of men I chose, including my STBXH. I'm not blaming anything on anyone; those were my own choices, but that is what I thought I was worth, and that's why I stayed with that type of man for so long; I thought that if I was good enough, pretty enough, in-shape enough, funny enough, if I gave in to their needs/wants enough and pleased them enough, then I would finally be enough for someone. That's not accurate, and since my separation and impending divorce, I've done loads of growing as a person, and finally, at 40, realize that I am enough for some people, and will never be enough for others.


Having grown up in an abusive environment and dealing with the shock of my mother's decision to stay in spite of her children's continued pleas to leave, I think @Ursula hit the nail on the head. 

My mother grew up with parents that were heavily into the church and according to her siblings, there was never any physical or verbal abuse. They could count the number of times they heard their parents arguing. However my grandad was as good as a piece of furniture when it came to showing love. The definition of stoicism. Despite my aunts' praise of their positive upbringing, my therapy thus far suggests my mother's issues stem from the cold, detached, rejecting feelings she perceived from my grandad. The combination of a mindset ingrained in the belief that she is not worthy/deserving of love and affection and my father's expert convincing that she is to blame for his outbursts has relegated her to a lifetime of pain and suffering.

It is a difficult cycle to break. Despite my exposure to the abuse and my awareness of the damage it causes, it was only a year or so ago that I was able to recognize my own abusive tendencies. Realizing the overt and subtle abusive behaviors displayed by my own siblings is a tough pill to swallow. Who's to blame? The abused child who grew up to be an adult clueless to the impact their childhood has on their way of thinking/view of the world? It is difficult to lay blame solely on my siblings. It is also difficult to have compassion for my mother who has chosen a life of beatings and verbal abuse.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

kekkek said:


> I am just reading the latest #Metoo accusations against the Metoo advocate Schneiderman, who abused women himself.
> 
> https://www.newyorker.com/news/news...-new-yorks-attorney-general-of-physical-abuse
> 
> ...


From the article: "Selvaratnam says that Schneiderman warned her he could have her followed and her phones tapped, and both say that he threatened to kill them if they broke up with him."

Not all that baffling ... these types of threats coming from a state attorney general (and violent drunk) are not to be dismissed lightly.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Some people are into all sorts of things - choking, beating, humiliation, electric shocks, whatever. 

The key of course is consent. There are hundreds of millions of men who are into anal sex with other men - but that doesn't mean that you or I want that. 


I'm usually slow to blame porn, but in this particular type of situation it may play a role. Porn sometimes shows all sorts of rough sex - which by itself is fine, but it generally doesn't spend time showing the clear negotiation / consent that happens first (and people would just fast-forward anyway).

This may have led some idiots to think that this sort of rough behavior is automatically consented to when someone consents to sex.


There are cases where things get tricky. What can and can't be assumed during sex can be tricky. What is reasonable or not to do? If you are having energetic doggy style sex, is it OK to slap your partners butt without asking first? When is it unreasonable? When is it rape?

That said, the things described here are clearly way over the line. No reasonably person will think that choking is OK without asking first. Following that with clear threats, and repeating this this multiple women pushes this into serial-rapist territory (as always assuming reports are accurate etc etc). 









Buddy400 said:


> Oddly enough, choking women during sex seems like it's a "thing" now and that happening because women like it (or feel compelled to say they do), not men.
> 
> Google 'Do women like to be choked during sex' and you'll get way too many hits, mostly saying "Yes, they do" (and they're usually women).
> 
> ...


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