# Unhappily Married Nine Years



## DoesItGetBetter?

*Facts: * 
•	My wife and I have been married for almost 10 years now – physically in good shape and attractive people in our thirties. 
•	We have three, young children. 
•	I have always worked and provided for all needs of our family, while my wife takes care of kids and home. 
•	We are very busy with our kids, so we rarely spend time just the two of us – dates are only once every few months. 
•	We have a healthy sex life together. 
•	Neither of us have been involved in intimate relationships with other partners during our marriage. There is no evidence or even a gut feeling of infidelity. 
•	I used to profess a certain theology during dating and early marriage that my wife still currently professes, but I no longer claim to follow that religion anymore. 
•	I view porn occasionally (~20min/week). 
•	I don’t really have any friends with whom I stay in contact. I am very close with my family, living close to them. My wife has a couple of religious and homeschool friends. 
*
Problems: *
•	Because I no longer hold to my old religious beliefs that my wife still believes, my wife holds this against me, blames me, accuses me of lying, falsely representing myself while dating. 
•	My wife almost left me when she found about the porn use early in our marriage, which I admitted to her openly, not knowing it would be so problematic with her. I went to a group for years about it. These people all had physical affairs in their past, so I was a lightweight in the group. I still do not talk to my wife about this subject. 
•	She often choses to close her eyes during sex. She says it is because she can’t look at me. She says it is because I have looked at porn, and so she feels like she can’t compare herself to the women in the videos. 
•	We both admitted last year that if we could do it over again, we would not have married each other, given our differing theology and value system and that we argue so much. However, we are still trying to make it work, especially because of the kids. 
•	My wife has said some mean things to me along the lines of how she hates her life, how she hates me, how she wishes she could divorce me, and how she wishes she was dead. Later, she will apologize. She admits to struggling with an anger problem. 
•	Usually I act or fail to act in a way that she expects me to act, and then she confronts me about my failings. I can’t think of the last time I have confronted her – probably a long time ago about her anger issue. She often confronts me for many minutes about how badly I screwed up and explains all the ramifications of my poor choice. Oftentimes, voices become raised, and we get angry with each other. She thinks I don’t take it seriously enough, and I think she is making a mountain out of a molehill. We then sometimes go hours or days not talking to each other nor having sex. I’m tired of constantly “walking on eggshells,” trying not to say or do the wrong thing and be scolded by her. From memory, the below examples of how I have failed her in her eyes, which escalated into fights:
o	I bought the wrong pizza toppings and toilet paper.
o	I am not being a spiritual leader in our house.
o	I am not taking our kids to a weekly spiritual event and teaching there.
o	I am not alerting her after the fact if I look at porn.
o	I use the TV too much when watching our kids.
o	I might skip a religious service once every few months (normally I go every week).
o	I might play on our gaming system for an hour during any given week.
o	I set the thermostat too hot or too cold. 
o	I don’t take her out to restaurants enough. 
o	I don’t buy her the clothes or shoes that she wants (she has what she needs).
o	She didn’t like my choice of older vehicles at one point. We since bought a newer one. 
o	She doesn’t feel like she can spend money as she wants to on various things.
o	I looked at attractive girls a few times at the pool and beach.
o	I bought an alcoholic beverage one time at the store and drank it.
o	I am not leading the charge to get our kid involved with baseball. 
o	I initiate sex too frequently.
o	I don’t think that holidays are special, sacred days and decorate and get into the holiday spirit. 
o	I don’t always 100% stop for stop signs or drive the exact speed limit. 
o	I have walked around some rooms in our house in my boxers. 
o	I sometimes have a brief bad attitude about visiting her parents for one week each year. 
o	I think sending the kids to public school is fine, but she insists on homeschooling to teach them morality. 
o	Sometimes I joke, but she uses it against me.
o	I have walked away from disagreements when we seemed to run out of things to say. 
o	I do not show enough empathy to her about how I have wronged her. 
o	I do not buy her the right gifts for celebrations, or I give out of obligation. ​*Questions:*
•	What are your thoughts on my situation?
•	What suggestions do you have for how we can improve the health of our marriage? 
•	Do you think that we can ever be happy with each other? 
•	Do you think that my wife can ever love, accept, and forgive me? 
•	For those of you with critical spouses, what are some tips for living with them?


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## EleGirl

I think that your marriage is completely fixable. Before it get into some ideas of how to fix things, I am going to comment on items in your long post above. Give me a few to write it up.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Sorry you're here, but welcome. 

With the information presented, and it does cut through a lot if questions. 

It sounds like there's no hope there and the quicker a separation the quicker each of you can begin a healing process.

I'm sure neither party is 100% to blame but at some point there is a tipping of scales. If she's just plain mean and abrasive ad nauseam that eliminates improving communications.

Make plans to exit the relationship. Ask her to move out. See a divorce lawyer quick. 

Time does not heal all relationships. 

Bear in mind I'm taking you at your word on the circumstances.


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## badsanta

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I don’t always 100% stop for stop signs or drive the exact speed limit.


Have you ever been tested for autism? A lot of things in your post jump out at me, particularly for some of the analytical comments and the way you structure things with bullets points. If by chance you are on the spectrum, that would explain a great deal of the communication, emotional and spiritual issues you are having in your marriage. 

If you do have ASD, you probably lack the empathy she would expect from you in certain situations. Meanwhile you react analytically perhaps trying to solve a problem or avoid further conflict as opposed to demonstrating that you understand and feel her emotions.


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## Marduk

Sorry, man. A few things jump to mind.

The first is that to her you abandoned your post when you abandoned your faith. I don't believe that, but I'm not a religious guy. I think you need to deal with that directly and need to force the issue.

If she is unhappy with your current beliefs, she can leave. If she doesn't want to leave, she needs to respect them. There is no middle ground. This is a fork in the road that I think you need to directly address. Likely with help. I do not know or understand her faith; would there be support and openness for you here? But I do think you need to stop accepting these kinds of slights.

I also think you two need to agree on how you can disagree. No name calling, how to call a time out, how not to cycle, etc. She does not treat you as an equal, likely because she is religious and you now are not. Until she can accept that you are still her equal deserving of respect, anything else will be a fool's errand to try to fix.

Lastly, stop having sex with your wife. She plainly does not want to have sex with you, and it's likely leading to further resentment.


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## personofinterest

Why did you choose to abandon your faith? Was it something you ever really believed?


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## StillSearching

Change the only thing you can.....YOU.
bait and switch anyone?


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## StarFires

badsanta said:


> Have you ever been tested for autism? A lot of things in your post jump out at me, particularly for some of the analytical comments and the way you structure things with bullets points. If by chance you are on the spectrum, that would explain a great deal of the communication, emotional and spiritual issues you are having in your marriage.
> 
> If you do have ASD, you probably lack the empathy she would expect from you in certain situations. Meanwhile you react analytically perhaps trying to solve a problem or avoid further conflict as opposed to demonstrating that you understand and feel her emotions.


Soooo funny I was thinking the same thing. I thought it might be ADD but autism applies much better.

DoesItGetBetter, it can get better if you want it to get better. There are an awful, and I mean an awful, lot of complaints your wife has there, but the greater number of them are legitimate complaints. 

Yet, it doesn't appear you try to do anything about any of them. Frankly, it doesn't appear you do anything at all.

So yeah, you're both unhappy. It doesn't seem like you want to be a husband or father, and she doesn't like being married to a man who clearly doesn't like being her husband. But you don't have to be unhappy. You can do something to please her. You can do something she asks you to do. You can do SOMETHING.

Men are often known to ignore their wife and dismiss her complaints and call her a nag even though they are the one who make her a nag by ignoring and dismissing. But most men do make some kind of effort. In the very least, when wifey becomes the Walk Away Wife and leaves because she finally got fed up with his neglect and inability to listen to her, then those husbands suddenly start wanting to straighten up and become a husband finally. 

Where do you want this to end up? Do you want a divorce? Do you just not want to be a husband? If you don't want to be married or participate in raising your children, then you have that to decide for yourself. But if you do want to be married and participate in raising your children, then it is way past time that you start participating in raising your children and acting like a married man. You don't get to do whatever you want when you're married. You don't get to do absolutely nothing except want sex when you're married. It looks like you sure do expect that often enough, and it doesn't look like anything else matters to you.

So what's it going to be? Do you want to be married or not? If you do want to be married, then what are you going to start doing about your unhappy marriage. Would you like some pointers? Would you like for us to bullet list the things for you to do?

If you don't want to be married, then get a divorce and stop complaining about your wife's complaints because just like she does a whole lot of complaining, she has just as many reasons for those complaints.


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## Casual Observer

Marduk said:


> Lastly, stop having sex with your wife. She plainly does not want to have sex with you, and it's likely leading to further resentment.


What, exactly, do you expect to come from that? It's my experience from reading thousands upon thousands of posts here on TAM that it's a very rare thing to see a marriage head into the sexless category and recover from it. Sex is a part of God's plan for men & women. The issue here is what sex has become, and perhaps not just for her, but for him as well. Intimacy in this relationship has gone out the window, and not just intimacy in bed but the ability or perhaps willingness to openly communicate with each other out of love and not anger. Heck, even anger would be an improvement here. 

Everything so far is a done thing. There's no talk between them about how to make things better, how to compromise and respect each other. No talk about making sensible boundaries. Little things like a willingness to walk around in boxers, knowing that it annoys her, and keep doing it. Instead of seeing it as a pretty easy thing to talk with her about and try to understand where she's coming from and geez, if there's something simple to change, would it be the end of the world to not walk around in boxers?

Making lists might be OK if it leads to some sort of epiphany and something is actually done about the issues. But making lists just to prove you're right and she's wrong (or vice versa) isn't going to get anywhere.


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## StarFires

StillSearching said:


> Change the only thing you can.....YOU.
> bait and switch anyone?


Yep, he baited and switched up on her.


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## Marduk

Casual Observer said:


> What, exactly, do you expect to come from that? It's my experience from reading thousands upon thousands of posts here on TAM that it's a very rare thing to see a marriage head into the sexless category and recover from it.





> She often choses to close her eyes during sex. She says it is because she can’t look at me. She says it is because I have looked at porn, and so she feels like she can’t compare herself to the women in the videos.
> 
> ... she hates me, how she wishes she could divorce me, and how she wishes she was dead.
> 
> I initiate sex too frequently.


That is why I say she doesn't want to have sex with him.

It's also plain she no longer respects him.

It may be the case that she's having sex with him only to fulfill some kind of religious obligation. Which will (in my opinion) only fuel her resentment and make things worse.

On top of that, I've had consensual sex with someone that plainly did not want to be having sex with me. It sucks. It's soul-killing. It's empty.

So it helps neither of them. It harms both of them unless structural changes are made. It can also force a marriage reset - because it will be an obvious and very real change.


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## StarFires

I began my earlier response by acknowledging the possibility you might be autistic, and then I went into my response as if that weren't a factor. I didn't mean to neglect that possibility.

So if you are autistic, please inform us and advise us if you have received any therapies. If you don't know if you are autistic, you can always get evaluated, so ask your doctor about it. You can't get help or therapy unless you're diagnosed, and you can't be of an asset or of much value in your marriage unless you get help and therapy. So please look into it.


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## Tilted 1

Anger,resentment, fear,resentment, frustration,resentment, void,resentment 

DIGB, You need to help yourself first. Do some IC for your self and do it with enthusiasm for yourself. Explain to your wife of your regret having failed in doing your part of meeting her expectations in your marriage. As she thought a 
were a sure thing!

And ask her for patience, and Grant you time to see if you have an epiphany. And if you do what a greater act of love, for the both of you.(never stay for the children) And then see if some of your perspective changes, as a couple joined together and sanction by God! (At the time of your marriage). Normally would give you different advice but l see something worth salvaging here.

Spare yourself and her and your children, the pain and misery should this turn south.


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## EleGirl

If the following sounds like I’m being hard on you, keep in mind that I would be saying exactly the same thing to your wife if she came here. You are both responsible for the state of your marriage. But you are the only one who is here, so I can only address you.



DoesItGetBetter? said:


> *Facts: *
> •	We are very busy with our kids, so we rarely spend time just the two of us – dates are only once every few months.


This right here is one of the biggest issues in your marriage and it’s what leads to the complete breakdown that your relationship is suffering.

If the two of you don’t prioritize your relationship, then the relationship will die over time. That’s what’s going on.

Humans have a hormone that is responsible for a strong emotional bond and for passion in a relationship… oxytocin.

To explain how profound this hormone is to human relationships I’m going to talk about childbirth. When a woman gives birth, the level of oxytocin in her brain skyrockets. Therefore, she is immediately bonded to her new baby. Oxytocin is often referred to as the amnesty hormone because due to this hormone, women do not remember the full extent of the pain the experience in childbirth. Some say if oxytocin did not exist, there would be no second child… no woman would go through childbirth a second time due to the pain of birth.

Oxytocin does two basic things; it creates a strong bond between humans, and it makes it so that they see things through rose colored lenses.

In a relationship, when a couple first falls in love, feel good brain chemistry skyrockets. The brain creates and uptakes hormones like dopamine and oxytocin. With that the couple falls madly in love. The brain’s high-level production/uptake of these hormones lasts for about 18 – 24 months. And then the level of these hormones winds down. If the couple makes it through this time period, they settle down into what we call mature love. In the stage of mature love that can last a lifetime, the couple has to nurture the relationship to keep the level of Oxytocin, dopamine and other feel good hormones high enough to remain “in-love”.

What happens if a couple does not nurture their relationship? Your relationship is a case sample. That’s what happens.

Why does you wife pick on you? Because with now level of oxytocin, she sees you through lenses that exaggerate every little annoying thing you do and/or do not do. If her oxytocin levels were high enough to remain ‘in-love’ with you, she would see you through those rose-colored glasses and none of that would bother her.

Another thing that happens when oxytocin levels drop, especially in a woman, is a lack of desire for sex with their spouse.

Women are far more sensitive to low levels of oxytocin then men are. When a woman’s oxytocin drops too low, she does not want to be touched, she’s very critical, she’s easy to annoy, and so forth.

From all that you have written, you too are very critical and nit pick on your wife. You definitely sound like you are not in-love with her. She under your skin and it’s getting to you.

So, what to do? The good news is that this is completely fixable. How, one of the most important things is to start spending a lot of quality time together, just the two of you with out the children or anyone else. Go out together and do romantic things. (Movies do not count because you are not concentrating on each other.) Spend time talking, going for walks and holding hands, go on picnics. A couple needs to spend a minimum of 15 hours a week in quality time. Do that and the two of you will fall in love again. And she will no longer see you as an annoying household member. The way you feel about her will improve greatly too.

Now about the religious thing and the porn.

Religion is important for those who believe. In some ways she is right in that you married her as a religious person and then changed your mind about all this. My bet is that one of the reasons that she decided to marry you is that you two shared religious beliefs. Now the two of you don’t have this very important outlook on beliefs in common. Can you at least recognize how profound this change in you is and how it changes your relationship with your wife?

Porn is an issue for many women. Why? Because women cannot compete with the women who pretend in porn. The acts these women put on are not real, but many men now expect their wife to act during sex like a porn star. Plus, the appearance of porn actresses is completely unrealistic. They have a lot of cosmetic surgery and wear tons of makeup. 99% of women in real life cannot look like they do. Shoot, the porn stars don’t even look like their on-screen image. Take a look….

https://izismile.com/2013/03/08/porn_stars_before_and_after_their_makeup_makeover_93_pics.html

It takes hundreds, I not thousands a month to maintain the porn-star look. A real woman cannot possibly life up to this. Their husband viewing porn makes them seem every insecure.

There is an interesting thread here on TAM written by a man who used to think that his wife was insecure for objecting to his porn usage. Then his wife started looking porn and masturbating to it. He found out. Apparently, he was absolutely devastated and insecure once he found out about her new hobby of using porn. His point on the thread was that sadly, he now understood the object that women have to men watching porn.




DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I don’t really have any friends with whom I stay in contact. I am very close with my family, living close to them.


This is easy to fix. Go get some friends. Look at http://www.meetup.com You will find all kinds of things you could do. Go, meet people, make friends. You can even find things for both you and your wife to do.



DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Because I no longer hold to my old religious beliefs that my wife still believes, my wife holds this against me, blames me, accuses me of lying, falsely representing myself while dating.


I can see why she feels like this. I’m not a super religious person. But I understand how important this is to some very religious people. I also get that some people lose their faith. I’m not sure how you resolve this.



DoesItGetBetter? said:


> She often choses to close her eyes during sex. She says it is because she can’t look at me. She says it is because I have looked at porn, and so she feels like she can’t compare herself to the women in the videos.


A lot of people close their eyes during sex. I have a very high sex drive, at least once a day is good for me. But I always close my eyes during sex most of the time. Why? Because it helps me focus on the feelings. If you are bugging her about this, you need to stop it. The last thing you should be doing is to pick on something like this related to sex. It will only make her want sex with you less.

She is right. She cannot live up to the female porn stars. They are faking everything from their appearance, their actions and even keeping they eyes open all through sex.



DoesItGetBetter? said:


> My wife has said some mean things to me along the lines of how she hates her life, how she hates me, how she wishes she could divorce me, and how she wishes she was dead. Later, she will apologize. She admits to struggling with an anger problem.


Have you ever said anything mean to your wife in anger?

Your wife sounds very depressed. It’s one of the side effects of having low oxytocin, dopamine, etc.


DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Usually I act or fail to act in a way that she expects me to act, and then she confronts me about my failings.


You would benefit from reading the book “No More Mr. Nice Guy”. I highly suggest you get it and read it.


DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I am not being a spiritual leader in our house.


She’s right on this. She chose to marry a man who would take this role. You sort of promised this when you married her. It means a lot to her. Not sure what you can do about it, but she’s right.



DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I don’t take her out to restaurants enough.


She’s right, you two don’t really spend any quality time. This is on both of you.


DoesItGetBetter? said:


> o	I don’t buy her the clothes or shoes that she wants (she has what she needs).
> o	She doesn’t feel like she can spend money as she wants to on various things.


Does your wife have access to money? Or do you control all spending?
Your wording, “I don’t buy her” makes it sounds like you control all spending and she has to beg you for even small, personal things. 

Who decides what she needs in clothing and shoes? Is this something you dictate? 

Does she get any money that she can spend on herself any way she wants?



DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I am not leading the charge to get our kid involved with baseball.


Why don’t you? How much time a week do you spend with you children?



DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I don’t think that holidays are special, sacred days and decorate and get into the holiday spirit.


Kill joy! For someone who really likes holidays. I hope that she encourages your children to enjoy and celebrate holidays with her. 


DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I don’t always 100% stop for stop signs or drive the exact speed limit.


By 100% stop, does that mean that you just drive through them not reducing your speed? Or does it mean that you just drive slowly and continue through the intersection if you see no approaching vehicles? 

Sounds like following the rules is important to her. 


DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I think sending the kids to public school is fine, but she insists on homeschooling to teach them morality.


Is she homeschooling your children? 


DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I do not buy her the right gifts for celebrations, or I give out of obligation.


Does she give you gifts for holidays, birthdays and celebrations?

So how to you fix your relationship? It’s going to take some work to do this but it can be done…. You two can restructure your relationship into a loving, passionate one.

Here’s what I suggest. Get the books “Love Busters” and “His Needs, Her Needs”. Read them in that order and do the work that they say to do. After you have read them, get her to read them with you and the two of you do the work together.

You have to stop the love busters before you can start meeting each other’s needs and rebuild the passion between you.

What are love busters? They are the things that people do that kill their spouse’s love for them. 

For example, you walk around the house in boxer shorts. You need to stop that because it’s causing problems. Go get some of those baggy pj bottoms sold at places like Walmart. Wear those instead. Surely you can do that little bit. 

Put more effort into gifts for her. Apparently, that means something to her. It’s your job as her husband to do the things that are important to her. Find out what she likes/wants by talking to her about it.

She does a lot of love busters too. I don’t have to list them because you listed a bucket load of them here.

If you want to fix your marriage you can if you do what those books say to do. Give it 6 months, if things are not significantly better, then you will know that you did all you can, and a divorce is probably your best bet. Your current situation it not good for your children. They see your miserable relationship and are learning that this is all they can expect in a marriage when they are adults. It’s better for them to have parents who are living healthy lives even though they are divorced.
Divorce is hard on kids. But so is an unhappy home.


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## SunCMars

DIGB and his wife are not compatible.
For whatever reasons....

It is simple as that.

Why try to reinvent the wheel? 

Each should go their own way. 
Problem solved.



KB-


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## Diana7

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> *Facts: *
> •	My wife and I have been married for almost 10 years now – physically in good shape and attractive people in our thirties.
> •	We have three, young children.
> •	I have always worked and provided for all needs of our family, while my wife takes care of kids and home.
> •	We are very busy with our kids, so we rarely spend time just the two of us – dates are only once every few months.
> •	We have a healthy sex life together.
> •	Neither of us have been involved in intimate relationships with other partners during our marriage. There is no evidence or even a gut feeling of infidelity.
> •	I used to profess a certain theology during dating and early marriage that my wife still currently professes, but I no longer claim to follow that religion anymore.
> •	I view porn occasionally (~20min/week).
> •	I don’t really have any friends with whom I stay in contact. I am very close with my family, living close to them. My wife has a couple of religious and homeschool friends.
> *
> Problems: *
> •	Because I no longer hold to my old religious beliefs that my wife still believes, my wife holds this against me, blames me, accuses me of lying, falsely representing myself while dating.
> •	My wife almost left me when she found about the porn use early in our marriage, which I admitted to her openly, not knowing it would be so problematic with her. I went to a group for years about it. These people all had physical affairs in their past, so I was a lightweight in the group. I still do not talk to my wife about this subject.
> •	She often choses to close her eyes during sex. She says it is because she can’t look at me. She says it is because I have looked at porn, and so she feels like she can’t compare herself to the women in the videos.
> •	We both admitted last year that if we could do it over again, we would not have married each other, given our differing theology and value system and that we argue so much. However, we are still trying to make it work, especially because of the kids.
> •	My wife has said some mean things to me along the lines of how she hates her life, how she hates me, how she wishes she could divorce me, and how she wishes she was dead. Later, she will apologize. She admits to struggling with an anger problem.
> •	Usually I act or fail to act in a way that she expects me to act, and then she confronts me about my failings. I can’t think of the last time I have confronted her – probably a long time ago about her anger issue. She often confronts me for many minutes about how badly I screwed up and explains all the ramifications of my poor choice. Oftentimes, voices become raised, and we get angry with each other. She thinks I don’t take it seriously enough, and I think she is making a mountain out of a molehill. We then sometimes go hours or days not talking to each other nor having sex. I’m tired of constantly “walking on eggshells,” trying not to say or do the wrong thing and be scolded by her. From memory, the below examples of how I have failed her in her eyes, which escalated into fights:
> o	I bought the wrong pizza toppings and toilet paper.
> o	I am not being a spiritual leader in our house.
> o	I am not taking our kids to a weekly spiritual event and teaching there.
> o	I am not alerting her after the fact if I look at porn.
> o	I use the TV too much when watching our kids.
> o	I might skip a religious service once every few months (normally I go every week).
> o	I might play on our gaming system for an hour during any given week.
> o	I set the thermostat too hot or too cold.
> o	I don’t take her out to restaurants enough.
> o	I don’t buy her the clothes or shoes that she wants (she has what she needs).
> o	She didn’t like my choice of older vehicles at one point. We since bought a newer one.
> o	She doesn’t feel like she can spend money as she wants to on various things.
> o	I looked at attractive girls a few times at the pool and beach.
> o	I bought an alcoholic beverage one time at the store and drank it.
> o	I am not leading the charge to get our kid involved with baseball.
> o	I initiate sex too frequently.
> o	I don’t think that holidays are special, sacred days and decorate and get into the holiday spirit.
> o	I don’t always 100% stop for stop signs or drive the exact speed limit.
> o	I have walked around some rooms in our house in my boxers.
> o	I sometimes have a brief bad attitude about visiting her parents for one week each year.
> o	I think sending the kids to public school is fine, but she insists on homeschooling to teach them morality.
> o	Sometimes I joke, but she uses it against me.
> o	I have walked away from disagreements when we seemed to run out of things to say.
> o	I do not show enough empathy to her about how I have wronged her.
> o	I do not buy her the right gifts for celebrations, or I give out of obligation. ​*Questions:*
> •	What are your thoughts on my situation?
> •	What suggestions do you have for how we can improve the health of our marriage?
> •	Do you think that we can ever be happy with each other?
> •	Do you think that my wife can ever love, accept, and forgive me?
> •	For those of you with critical spouses, what are some tips for living with them?


Yes your marriage is 100% fixable and with some good marriage counselling and work and effort on both sides it could be good. You have three small children who depend on you and need you to be a full time dad, divorce isn't an option.
I do understand her feeling that you married her under false pretences. I am a Christian and I wouldn't marry a man unless he was too. She married you thinking that you were and now you deny the faith. You also watch porn and I can fully understand that she is hurt by this. The first thing you can do is to stop the porn.


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## Marduk

Holy crap, @EleGirl. Wow.


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## Betrayedone

Get the HELL out of there.......She will suck the life out of you(and not in a good way.....). You seem quite reasonable to me. You will always be on egg shells around her and that's no way to live. She feels the need to hold the power in the relationship and she DOES NOT RESPECT YOU. What more do you need to know? There are MANY red flags here. I'm not buying the autism bit at all..........


----------



## Livvie

SunCMars said:


> DIGB and his wife are not compatible.
> For whatever reasons....
> 
> It is simple as that.
> 
> Why try to reinvent the wheel?
> 
> Each should go their own way.
> Problem solved.
> 
> 
> 
> KB-


I 100% agree with this.

You two seem really different.

I don't foresee the issue around religion every being resolved-- her truly accepting that you no longer wish to practice it


----------



## Spicy

It sounds like you both are very miserable. I’m sorry to read this. Also very worried about the three kids involved. 

I’m confused, you are no longer part of her faith but you attend all but once a month? I’m assuming this is giving very mixed messages to her, your kids, and those who know you. Please explain. This seems like a VERY important piece, and one she thought you were in full agreement on before marriage, but then you changed your mind. 

All I can think of is that you guys need lots more time to enjoy and renew your marriage. You will both need to make a lot of changes. Marriage counseling seems imperative. You have worked yourself into a BIG pickle.


----------



## StarFires

SunCMars said:


> DIGB and his wife are not compatible.
> For whatever reasons....
> 
> It is simple as that.
> 
> Why try to reinvent the wheel?
> 
> Each should go their own way.
> Problem solved.
> 
> KB-


Yep, it appears that way but also appears to be what happened after he decided to become someone other than he initially presented himself to be. It almost seems like he secured himself regular and convenient coochie and then checked out after getting what he wanted.

So that begs the question of whether they are incompatible or whether he will decide to make some kind of effort toward being the husband and father she thought he would be. I can't say it's a lost cause unless he continues to not bother to try. He's unhappy and came here to complain about her nagging, but dangee look at all her complaints. And for her to want to die?? She's miserable as can be. She feels like she was cheated and she was.


----------



## Casual Observer

Marduk said:


> That is why I say she doesn't want to have sex with him.
> 
> It's also plain she no longer respects him.
> 
> It may be the case that she's having sex with him only to fulfill some kind of religious obligation. Which will (in my opinion) only fuel her resentment and make things worse.
> 
> On top of that, I've had consensual sex with someone that plainly did not want to be having sex with me. It sucks. It's soul-killing. It's empty.
> 
> So it helps neither of them. It harms both of them unless structural changes are made. It can also force a marriage reset - because it will be an obvious and very real change.


So you're not suggesting that a sexless marriage is OK, but rather that it would force the issue up front and a decision would need to be made about reconciliation or divorce. Because it's not a marriage if it's sexless, not in God's eyes (which relates to her) or his (the husband's) view of things. In other words, secular or otherwise. Am I getting this right?


----------



## Marduk

Casual Observer said:


> So you're not suggesting that a sexless marriage is OK, but rather that it would force the issue up front and a decision would need to be made about reconciliation or divorce. Because it's not a marriage if it's sexless, not in God's eyes (which relates to her) or his (the husband's) view of things. In other words, secular or otherwise. Am I getting this right?




I don’t quite understand the whole “In Gods eyes” thing, but yes. 

I want to stop adding to her resentment and his lack of fulfillment. Basic triage. If you can’t make them better right away, at least stop making them worse. 

And force the issue. She cannot stay and leave at the same time. Which will it be?


----------



## Casual Observer

StarFires said:


> Yep, it appears that way but also appears to be what happened after he decided to become someone other than he initially presented himself to be. It almost seems like he secured himself regular and convenient coochie and then checked out after getting what he wanted.
> 
> So that begs the question of whether they are incompatible or whether he will decide to make some kind of effort toward being the husband and father she thought he would be. I can't say it's a lost cause unless he continues to not bother to try. He's unhappy and came here to complain about her nagging, but dangee look at all her complaints. And for her to want to die?? She's miserable as can be. She feels like she was cheated and she was.


And the bit about closing her eyes during sex because she couldn't stop thinking about what he viewed her as, comparisons to the porn, whatever... why doesn't that greatly sadden him? Why doesn't he realize he is not the man she likely courted and married and what that means to her? He goes to church weekly out of duty but he doesn't believe. Think about the two of them, hearing the same message, with her knowing that he no longer thinks what she is hearing is relevant. It would be better, I think, if he weren't even there. Plenty of families manage where one is devout and the other not. They do it by not trying to pretend. They do it with some manner of respect.

But we don't know anything about their earlier days. We don't know if he was an alpha-male leader guy who made promises of being a biblically-inspired husband and father. We're kind of making assumptions of that, but what if she saw him as a work-in-progress and accepted him thinking he would grow into the role? That's not what he says though; he says during dating and early marriage he shared the same theology as her.

Hmm. Also taken aback by his claim "We have a healthy sex life" and then the later reveal that she has to close her eyes. I don't think he can say anything beyond "we have sex" as being something in common about their sex life. It's certainly not healthy.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

I see one glaring thing standing out, and it boils down to communication in IMHO. Communication is typically the issue that dooms most marriages. @EleGirl provide you some stellar advice, and I think you need to chew on it.

Is your wife Catholic? From my experience Catholic women have many sexual issues and hang ups.
Some religions indoctrinate young people to the theory sex is dirty, sex should be only to procreate,etc.
I am a survivor of catholic schools. Parris Island was a vacation paradise compared to the grade school I attended. I am still Catholic, but I don’t agree with a lot of the teachings. 

The key to a successful relationship is to be in tune with each other. You guys are not, but there is hope.
I would strongly encourage you and your wife to get into IC for each of you as well as MC. A good MC can work wonders with couples like you.

You loved each other enough to get married, so I think you at least need to make a solid attempt to right the ship. In the Corps one of the first things we were taught is the following: Improvise, Adapt, Overcome. Think about that. We are taught in boot camp there are no Unwinnable situations. Apply what I just said to applies the current state of your marriage. 

Good luck.


----------



## StarFires

Casual Observer said:


> And the bit about closing her eyes during sex because she couldn't stop thinking about what he viewed her as, comparisons to the porn, whatever... why doesn't that greatly sadden him? Why doesn't he realize he is not the man she likely courted and married and what that means to her?


Very good point. Instead, he views it as just another complaint from her nagging mouth.



Casual Observer said:


> He goes to church weekly out of duty but he doesn't believe. Think about the two of them, hearing the same message, with her knowing that he no longer thinks what she is hearing is relevant. It would be better, I think, if he weren't even there. Plenty of families manage where one is devout and the other not. They do it by not trying to pretend. They do it with some manner of respect.


Including the ones of different faiths. They work it out, like you say. I remember my grandfather and (step) grandmother always attended different churches of different religions. They were a great couple and set a great example.

Great perspective on you.



Casual Observer said:


> But we don't know anything about their earlier days. We don't know if he was an alpha-male leader guy who made promises of being a biblically-inspired husband and father. We're kind of making assumptions of that, but what if she saw him as a work-in-progress and accepted him thinking he would grow into the role? That's not what he says though; he says during dating and early marriage he shared the same theology as her.


You might have read my many mentions of "the man in our heads." We women have a tendency to conjure the perfect husband and then get disappointed when we realize the man in our heads and the man we married are two different people. One is real imagination and the other is just real, meaning imperfect as we all are.

So I know you're probably right, but I don't think I jumped the gun in feeling she has reasons beyond that to be disappointed. It seems like, whatever her expectations were, she ended up with very little and what she might consider to be little of nothing.



Casual Observer said:


> Hmm. Also taken aback by his claim "We have a healthy sex life" and then the later reveal that she has to close her eyes. I don't think he can say anything beyond "we have sex" as being something in common about their sex life. It's certainly not healthy.


LOL That's where I get the clear and present notion that his objective was to secure himself regular and convenient coochie. He has that so it's the all-important aspect of his marriage - so important to him that regular and convenient = healthy and nothing else matters since he's getting it. I'm actually surprised this guy is not abusive. He has so many hallmarks of the typical narcissist or borderline. But again, if he is autistic, it could 'splain some of this. Not all but some, and I bet she could find some comfort in that explanation, as opposed to feeling duped and neglected.


----------



## Cynthia

A lot of good responses. 

It sounds to me like you have deeply hurt your wife and think she should just suck it up. She feels judged and inadequate when you view porn, but instead of comforting and encouraging your wife, you're angry that she can't open her eyes due to her pain at feeling judged and inadequate. No wonder your wife is critical towards you. You're mean to her and don't seem to consider her feelings.

I'm not saying it's okay for your wife to be critical, but I doubt that is going to change unless you start to treat your wife like she matters to you.

Elegirl's post was excellent. The only thing I disagree with is No More Mr. Nice Guy. The first half, explanation part, of the book is excellent, but his prescription is extremely self-serving and would only damage your relationship more.

I have one more book recommendation that I think may be helpful to your wife, The God Shaped Brain, by Timothy R. Jennings ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JGOFNMA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 ). She seems very rules oriented. This book sheds a different light on scripture that might help her to lighten up and feel better. It would work best if the two of you read all of these books together and encourage each other to make the most of your marriage.

I homeschooled my three children and found that it can offer a lot to children if studies are taken seriously, whether they are religious or not. In my community, there are a lot of people who homeschool for a variety of reasons. Are you satisfied with the level of education your children are receiving? Are they doing well?

I am one who believes that the two of you can work through all of this, but you have to be willing to recognize that you broke your wife's heart in a couple of extremely serious ways. When she tells you she feels like dying, that should alarm you and you should be concerned for her well-being, but instead you are annoyed with her. That's cold.


----------



## CraigBesuden

I agree that Ele’s post is great.

It seems that many women are insecure about being compared to the women in porn, and many men are insecure about being compared to a wife’s past lovers, especially with regard to penis size. It doesn’t matter whether they are “right” to feel that way; that's how they feel.

I was a believer until 19 when I no longer believed. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn’t bait and switch her. Thank goodness I didn’t marry at 18!

You need to treat your wife right. Not giving her money besides necessities is controlling. It reminds me of a pimp I saw on Taxi Cab Confessions, speaking of keeping the girls’ money: “Give ‘em what they need, not what they want.”


----------



## CraigBesuden

> o	I am not being a spiritual leader in our house.
> 
> o	I am not taking our kids to a weekly spiritual event and teaching there.
> 
> o	I might skip a religious service once every few months (normally I go every week).


You need to do better at being the man she thought she was marrying.



> o	I don’t take her out to restaurants enough.
> 
> o	I don’t buy her the clothes or shoes that she wants (she has what she needs).
> 
> o	She doesn’t feel like she can spend money as she wants to on various things. o	I looked at attractive girls a few times at the pool and beach.


She’s 100% right. A homemaker is not a slave or servant. Treat her like a human being. Treat her right.



> o	I bought an alcoholic beverage one time at the store and drank it.


Obviously she’s a teetotaler. You knew what you were marrying.



> o	I am not leading the charge to get our kid involved with baseball.





> o	I initiate sex too frequently.


Nah, she’s wrong there 🙂



> o	I don’t think that holidays are special, sacred days and decorate and get into the holiday spirit.


Surely you can do this for your wife and kids? 



> o	I don’t always 100% stop for stop signs or drive the exact speed limit.


My wife does Hollywood stops. Annoys me to death.



> o	I am not alerting her after the fact if I look at porn.


Can you find another way to arouse yourself without porn videos?



> o	I use the TV too much when watching our kids.


My wife and I have this argument, too. It’s an easy babysitter but there are other choices.


----------



## Cynthia

Freewill is a good given right. Without freewill, people could not truly love and could not have free exercise of belief. What use is a so-called believer who has no other choice! Therefore, as a devout Christian, I believe you have a right to change your mind about whether or not you believe in God.

In the spirit of this concept, you and your wife need to come to an understanding and respect for each other’s point of view. Your wife also needs to know that you purposefully do a bait and switch, unless of course you did do a bait and switch. People change their minds about all sorts of things. This is a huge one, but the fact remains that you must be able to exercise your freewill.

That doesn’t take away the fact that you should exercise self-control in your exercise of freewill and in the process to develop a sense of concern for your wife and her opinions. You have continued to attend church with her, but you have done other things that are causing needless pain in your marriage. 

The reason I suggested you read the books together is because telling your wife to read a book is not a good course of action unless you are willing to read it too. If you read it with her, you are participating with her and not asking her to do something you are not willing to do yourself.

I have a close friend who married outside of her faith. She and her husband had a good marriage. She homeschooled the children. She instilled Christian faith in them without hinderance from her husband. That is what they agreed upon before marriage and he kept up his end of the agreement. Sadly, he passed away before the children were grown up, but the children never saw their parents arguing or in disagreement about faith. He was respectful of his wife in her beliefs and she was respectful of his. I believe this is possible for your marriage as well.


----------



## sokillme

personofinterest said:


> Why did you choose to abandon your faith? Was it something you ever really believed?


This is a big question that needs to be answered. If you just lied to her that is pretty brutal. 

Besides that why exactly are you staying together? I mean when your wife says she hates you and wishes she was dead that is a pretty strong sign that the marriage is dead don't you think?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

EleGirl said:


> I think that your marriage is completely fixable. Before it get into some ideas of how to fix things, I am going to comment on items in your long post above. Give me a few to write it up.


I doubt things will change well.
He will either become subservient to the social demands or eventually explode.
After all only the asker can change, and they must do so because they have true change of heart, otherwise they are just trying to act different for someone else which takes a cultural paradigm not in this mans inventory.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

CynthiaDe said:


> I have a close friend who married outside of her faith. She and her husband had a good marriage. She homeschooled the children. She instilled Christian faith in them without hinderance from her husband. That is what they agreed upon before marriage and he kept up his end of the agreement. Sadly, he passed away before the children were grown up, but the children never saw their parents arguing or in disagreement about faith. He was respectful of his wife in her beliefs and she was respectful of his. I believe this is possible for your marriage as well.


Part of the difficulty is the wife has a mental picture of what she sees as correct husband model, and he's not fitting that. As long as the belief is rigid he can either fake it, break it, or walk away. Breaking it is general not the nice thing to do, and takes effort, skill, and a solid disregard for other peoples' values - not for the faint of heart...

Important factor to remember is he is up against a preconceived _idea_. Many religious people are not good at giving up faulty ideas.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

StarFires said:


> Men are often known to ignore their wife and dismiss her complaints and call her a nag even though they are the one who make her a nag by ignoring and dismissing. But most men do make some kind of effort. In the very least, when wifey becomes the Walk Away Wife and leaves because she finally got fed up with his neglect and inability to listen to her, then those husbands suddenly start wanting to straighten up and become a husband finally.


Not neglect - i signed on as lover, not free: atm, accountant, mechanic, driver, builder, painter, groundskeeper, complaint therapist, on demand entertainment provider, babysitter - and i dont mind bit of cooking, cleaning etc - but if you take over the whole house (and relegate me to a single room or shed) don't expect me to clean it to your preferences (vs mine). Not wanting to be your slave doesnt make me neglectful.


----------



## azimuth

spotthedeaddog said:


> Part of the difficulty is the *wife has a mental picture of what she sees as correct husband model*, and he's not fitting that. As long as the belief is rigid he can either fake it, break it, or walk away. Breaking it is general not the nice thing to do, and takes effort, skill, and a solid disregard for other peoples' values - not for the faint of heart...
> 
> Important factor to remember is he is up against a preconceived _idea_. Many religious people are not good at giving up faulty ideas.



He presented himself as that model while they were dating.


----------



## Edmund

Good grief he is NOT autistic. I raised my son who is now 30 years old and is autistic. I know dozens of folks on the spectrum and have either used or know about the various therapies.
One thing they all have in common is inability to navigate nuances in social relationships - he could not have written the original post if he was on the spectrum.
Sorry for the T/J.


----------



## Edmund

spotthedeaddog said:


> Part of the difficulty is the wife has a mental picture of what she sees as correct husband model, and he's not fitting that. As long as the belief is rigid he can either fake it, break it, or walk away. Breaking it is general not the nice thing to do, and takes effort, skill, and a solid disregard for other peoples' values - not for the faint of heart...
> 
> Important factor to remember is he is up against a preconceived _idea_. Many religious people are not good at giving up faulty ideas.


There was an old TV show called "The Waltons"...


----------



## Marduk

spotthedeaddog said:


> Not neglect - i signed on as lover, not free: atm, accountant, mechanic, driver, builder, painter, groundskeeper, complaint therapist, on demand entertainment provider, babysitter - and i dont mind bit of cooking, cleaning etc - but if you take over the whole house (and relegate me to a single room or shed) don't expect me to clean it to your preferences (vs mine). Not wanting to be your slave doesnt make me neglectful.



Here’s where I’m at. 

We have zones that are hers and zones that are mine. She has more zones than I do, but my desires to have my own space is limited. 

We share the spaces but I call the ball in the rec room in the basement, and in my den/library. She basically calls the ball in the rest of the house. And I’m good with that because we take each other’s tastes into consideration, and don’t shut each other out of our zones. So good. Goodwill all round. 

When it comes to household maintenance stuff, we have pink jobs and blue jobs. I do my ****, and she does her ****. She can ask for my help, or vice versa, and then we help, but it’s clear who’s job it is. We don’t work well together unless one of us is in charge. 

Additionally, we can ask someone to our job, but we cannot tell them how to do it. For example, she likes to vacuum because she doesn’t like the way that I do it. If she asks me to vacuum, I will happily do it. But she doesn’t get to criticize the result. And vice versa. 

We’re both type A so it’s like having two CEOs run a company. It’s possible, but it requires clear lines of authority. 

But what stuck out was babysitting. If they’re your kids, you’re not babysitting. You’re just parenting. I know, because I’ve called it babysitting, and it’s quite belittling.


----------



## Cynthia

spotthedeaddog said:


> Part of the difficulty is the wife has a mental picture of what she sees as correct husband model, and he's not fitting that. As long as the belief is rigid he can either fake it, break it, or walk away. Breaking it is general not the nice thing to do, and takes effort, skill, and a solid disregard for other peoples' values - not for the faint of heart...
> 
> Important factor to remember is he is up against a preconceived _idea_. Many religious people are not good at giving up faulty ideas.


This implies that she cannot learn or grow, especially because she is religious. It's not only religious people who have trouble giving up their faulty ideas. This is a human condition that I see in people of all belief systems, whether religious or not. We all have a world view. When that world view is challenged, it can be difficult to readjust.

If this couple wants the marriage to work, they are going to both have to make changes and move into a different paradigm. What they really need is to love each other and have each other's backs, but that isn't at all what's going on now. They are in survival mode. The problems here have to do with character, not with religion.


----------



## StarFires

Marduk said:


> But what stuck out was babysitting. If they’re your kids, you’re not babysitting. You’re just parenting. I know, because I’ve called it babysitting, and it’s quite belittling.


A person reveals his true self when he states he married for the sex, utterly refusing to do anything else that is expected of a husband. And to actually say the word "babysitter" and he won't help transport his children or maintain the household negates his entire way of thinking, whatever that may be. It appears he and the OP are of the same mind.

You noted that a parent has no business thinking of or referring to himself as a babysitter. Having kids requires both parents knowing they are responsible for watching over their children, getting the kids where they need to be, cleaning the home behind the kids and teaching them to clean up after themselves. He doesn't have to do anything to her exacting standards, but he does have to do them.

He made reference to child(ren), but it doesn't sound like you have children, so, since the circumstances aren't the same, it seems like the rest of your post validated his post that he, himself, had already negated.


----------



## Tilted 1

DIGB, it has been layed out for you both pros and cons. Now just how much would it cost you, say 6 months to do the changes. Maybe then as your wife has seen changes in you her could compromise also. 

And if not you are not losing, nothing but 6 months. Some may say that just could be a turning point. For you and your wife. Give yourself a shot at returning to promises kept, but if not you go on your way of life. So when you're children question you as they grow.

You can tell them with an honest answer, l attempted to do changes but.... It just did not work.


----------



## EleGirl

Yo... guys and gals.... DoesItGetBetter? started this thread to discuss and get input into his issues. While all this talk about your lives is fascinating, at some point that seems to have become the topic of the thread and poor DoesItGetBetter? has been left behind. It might very well be why he's not replied in a while. 

Please limit your posts to directly posting to DoesItGetBetter?.


----------



## EleGirl

@DoesItGetBetter?

I'm checking in on you. How are you doing?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

azimuth said:


> He presented himself as that model while they were dating.


As a man you have to present a false face to the world. The world has less than zero interest in the real guy.
He has to be an idealised impossible version of himself or his mate will simply ignore him or 'think she has better options" - to get with a girl you like you have to stand out in a noticeable way for her, and tidy away the edges she would disapprove of. Women are extremely judgmental about who they are willing to be with.

On the concept of religion though, it is even more tricky as often a persons beliefs will change. Those who have the luxury of being safe and coddled by the culture often fall more deeply into it thinking it has objective value, those on the edges or raped by it tend to lose commitment. (hence the need for cults to actively encourage members to work on fringe members or those feeling disenchanted). This goes for religious worship of law and modern culture as well.
Often some want to belief so hard they'll ignore signs of failure until it becomes impossible - we saw this in the old medical field, until a famous oncologist ended up in his own faility and couldnt ignore it any more.

Such a wide spread effect is generally a sign of a universal principle in action.


----------



## MattMatt

@DoesItGetBetter? I would suggest couple's counselling at a minimum. And individual counselling as well.

I am sorry but your wife seems to be digging into Mrs Brown's Inexhaustible False Reasons bag and takes out a false reason to beat you with.

Is the religion she practices Christian? If so, it'd be really neat if she actually started to practice it?


----------



## personofinterest

Divorce your wife. If an unbeliever abandons their spouse, she is free to marry again.

And so can you.


----------



## personofinterest

azimuth said:


> spotthedeaddog said:
> 
> 
> 
> Part of the difficulty is the *wife has a mental picture of what she sees as correct husband model*, and he's not fitting that. As long as the belief is rigid he can either fake it, break it, or walk away. Breaking it is general not the nice thing to do, and takes effort, skill, and a solid disregard for other peoples' values - not for the faint of heart...
> 
> Important factor to remember is he is up against a preconceived _idea_. Many religious people are not good at giving up faulty ideas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He presented himself as that model while they were dating.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Apparently the red pill interferes with logical synapses


----------



## personofinterest

spotthedeaddog said:


> azimuth said:
> 
> 
> 
> He presented himself as that model while they were dating.
> 
> 
> 
> As a man you have to present a false face to the world. The world has less than zero interest in the real guy.
> He has to be an idealised impossible version of himself or his mate will simply ignore him or 'think she has better options" - to get with a girl you like you have to stand out in a noticeable way for her, and tidy away the edges she would disapprove of. Women are extremely judgmental about who they are willing to be with.
> 
> On the concept of religion though, it is even more tricky as often a persons beliefs will change. Those who have the luxury of being safe and coddled by the culture often fall more deeply into it thinking it has objective value, those on the edges or raped by it tend to lose commitment. (hence the need for cults to actively encourage members to work on fringe members or those feeling disenchanted). This goes for religious worship of law and modern culture as well.
> Often some want to belief so hard they'll ignore signs of failure until it becomes impossible - we saw this in the old medical field, until a famous oncologist ended up in his own faility and couldnt ignore it any more.
> 
> Such a wide spread effect is generally a sign of a universal principle in action.
Click to expand...

What a crock of crap


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

StarFires said:


> You noted that a parent has no business thinking of or referring to himself as a babysitter. Having kids requires both parents knowing they are responsible for watching over their children, getting the kids where they need to be, cleaning the home behind the kids and teaching them to clean up after themselves. He doesn't have to do anything to her exacting standards, but he does have to do them.


Used to say the same until I got made the babysitter for my children.

I had no actual weight in the discussion about their lives, I got told off in front of them if I tried to discipline one, the school and schedule was entirely taken out of my hands, things like which sports or clubs did not even include me in the discussion, discussions with teachers would happen when I wasnt present and often scheduled for when I had other commitments, and my "time with the children" was determined by her and whenever she didnt want to be with them. The main difference between me and official babysitters, I got frozen out etc if I said "no", was expected to be "on demand", and had to pay not get paid.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

personofinterest said:


> What a crock of crap


incorrect. go do your research. The comment about the oncologist is easiest to track, as Robin Williams (the suicide guy) did a movie playing him. It was based on true story, and is used as medical train example about bedside manner when my brother did his medical degree.


----------



## personofinterest

spotthedeaddog said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a crock of crap
> 
> 
> 
> incorrect. go do your research. The comment about the oncologist is easiest to track, as Robin Williams (the suicide guy) did a movie playing him. It was based on true story, and is used as medical train example about bedside manner when my brother did his medical degree.
Click to expand...

I dont research RedPill bitter spew, sorry.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

badsanta said:


> Have you ever been tested for autism? A lot of things in your post jump out at me, particularly for some of the analytical comments and the way you structure things with bullets points. If by chance you are on the spectrum, that would explain a great deal of the communication, emotional and spiritual issues you are having in your marriage.
> 
> If you do have ASD, you probably lack the empathy she would expect from you in certain situations. Meanwhile you react analytically perhaps trying to solve a problem or avoid further conflict as opposed to demonstrating that you understand and feel her emotions.


I have *never *been diagnosed with autism. I was diagnosed with ADD and depression when I was a teenager, but I only took medication for a year or so back then. The drugs messed with my mind powerfully, so I stopped taking them.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

I grew up in a Christian household, and I believed it. I went to schools that taught it. I sought a wife that believed it. However, in my 30s, after trying and failing to live in a way in accordance with the commands in the Bible all my life, I just stopped believing. I have always had doubts, but I finally thought that the religious claims of the book were too much, supernatural, unsubstantiated. I had so many problems with the faith that I wrote them all down, and then made up my mind that I will no longer just accept it all as true. I still attend church because I view it as a family event, and I want to be a good husband and father to my kids. I try not to talk about my faith, or lack of it, whenever possible, as my family would be crushed to find out that I am no longer fully on board with it. Right now really only my wife knows. I still think if I had to pick a religion, it would be Christianity, but I just can't accept the water to wine, the virgin birth, the Trinity, heaven and hell, who made the devil, the horrible things that happen on earth, the constant guilt of never being good enough, the good god who set all of this up, etc... I am sorry for my wife that I no longer believe. I tried for years to lead the religious charge in my family, but I just can't reconcile reality with the Bible anymore.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

StarFires said:


> Soooo funny I was thinking the same thing. I thought it might be ADD but autism applies much better.
> 
> DoesItGetBetter, it can get better if you want it to get better. There are an awful, and I mean an awful, lot of complaints your wife has there, but the greater number of them are legitimate complaints.
> 
> Yet, it doesn't appear you try to do anything about any of them. Frankly, it doesn't appear you do anything at all.
> 
> So yeah, you're both unhappy. It doesn't seem like you want to be a husband or father, and she doesn't like being married to a man who clearly doesn't like being her husband. But you don't have to be unhappy. You can do something to please her. You can do something she asks you to do. You can do SOMETHING.
> 
> Men are often known to ignore their wife and dismiss her complaints and call her a nag even though they are the one who make her a nag by ignoring and dismissing. But most men do make some kind of effort. In the very least, when wifey becomes the Walk Away Wife and leaves because she finally got fed up with his neglect and inability to listen to her, then those husbands suddenly start wanting to straighten up and become a husband finally.
> 
> Where do you want this to end up? Do you want a divorce? Do you just not want to be a husband? If you don't want to be married or participate in raising your children, then you have that to decide for yourself. But if you do want to be married and participate in raising your children, then it is way past time that you start participating in raising your children and acting like a married man. You don't get to do whatever you want when you're married. You don't get to do absolutely nothing except want sex when you're married. It looks like you sure do expect that often enough, and it doesn't look like anything else matters to you.
> 
> So what's it going to be? Do you want to be married or not? If you do want to be married, then what are you going to start doing about your unhappy marriage. Would you like some pointers? Would you like for us to bullet list the things for you to do?
> 
> If you don't want to be married, then get a divorce and stop complaining about your wife's complaints because just like she does a whole lot of complaining, she has just as many reasons for those complaints.


I listed her complaints against me to paint a picture of my reality and to ask if this is normal. I put much effort into my marriage, so please do not accuse me of doing nothing. I want to stay married, but I want our relationship to improve. I never touched alcohol after she got mad at me. I stopped wearing boxers after she got mad at me. I now ask her what toppings she wants on the pizza every time, after she got mad at me. I still go to church to please her. I am simply wondering about what needs to happen in order for her to turn down the arguments. I attend our children's sporting events. Please do not accuse me of only wanting sex, for I want many other things including good relationships with my wife and children.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

StarFires said:


> Yep, he baited and switched up on her.


Perhaps my lack of details in my original post lead you to this wrong conclusion. Please see my religious summary in my post earlier this morning. I was on board with the religion my whole life, including the first 5 years of marriage or so. Only a few years ago did I start doubting heavily, weighing the evidence against its many claims, and found it wanting.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

Tilted 1 said:


> Anger,resentment, fear,resentment, frustration,resentment, void,resentment
> 
> DIGB, You need to help yourself first. Do some IC for your self and do it with enthusiasm for yourself. Explain to your wife of your regret having failed in doing your part of meeting her expectations in your marriage. As she thought a
> were a sure thing!
> 
> And ask her for patience, and Grant you time to see if you have an epiphany. And if you do what a greater act of love, for the both of you.(never stay for the children) And then see if some of your perspective changes, as a couple joined together and sanction by God! (At the time of your marriage). Normally would give you different advice but l see something worth salvaging here.
> 
> Spare yourself and her and your children, the pain and misery should this turn south.


I have apologized to her numerous time about my change in theology, and I realize this has a huge impact on her life. Having said that, I can't just fake being a good Christian, if I don't believe it. I agree, we have something worth salvaging, especially with the kids involved.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

duplicate post - trying to delete...


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## personofinterest

So to translate, it was too hard to live according to The Bible, which means you probably found some of its commands and restrictions to be cramping your style, so your answer was to just Chuck it all together. Surely you can understand why that might be troubling to the wife who thought she married a godly Christian husband.

As for the rest, the sheer length and structure of your opening post leads me to believe that you tend to be somewhat obsessive and controlling, that what your wife does is never good enough, and that there are a myriad of issues in your marriage besides just the religious aspect. I am also suspicious that you probably have trouble taking responsibility for any of those issues, preferring to think that it's all your wife just like you preferred to think God was wrong when Christianity got to hard.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

Thank you for all the responses. EleGirl, I agree that my wife and I need to spend some more time together just the two of us. I am going to try to prioritize that. 
I shared a bit more on my theology over time in my earlier post this morning, so I hope that helps answer questions there. 
As to the porn usage, I tried to quit, but I could not quite cut it out. I feel bad about it, because I do not tell my wife about it. She becomes very upset whenever it has been brought up in the past. I have never mentioned anything to my wife about her closing her eyes during sex. She was the one to mention it to me, how she feels like she can’t even look at me because I have viewed other women. 
I have an inner tightwad who I keep in check. However, I have been doing much better over the years, as it negatively impacted our marriage. For example, she spent hundreds of dollars over this weekend on things, and I encouraged it. I try not to look at purchases anymore, as that seems to be the path of least problems. When the credit card bill arrives, I will just ask about large purchases as to whether they are legit, and then pay it. 
I work during the week for most of the day. When I arrived at home, we eat, we play (pool, walk, hike, bike, shop, TV), and then go to bed. I am an active part of my family’s life, as it is basically all that I do. 
As to my automobile driving, I typically slowly roll through stop signs if no one is around. 
Yes, rules are extremely important to my wife. 
Yes, my wife is homeschooling our children. 
Yes, my wife and I typically give gifts to each other during birthdays, anniversaries, and Christmas. 
I stopped wearing boxer shorts around the house.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

Spicy said:


> It sounds like you both are very miserable. I’m sorry to read this. Also very worried about the three kids involved.
> 
> I’m confused, you are no longer part of her faith but you attend all but once a month? I’m assuming this is giving very mixed messages to her, your kids, and those who know you. Please explain. This seems like a VERY important piece, and one she thought you were in full agreement on before marriage, but then you changed your mind.
> 
> All I can think of is that you guys need lots more time to enjoy and renew your marriage. You will both need to make a lot of changes. Marriage counseling seems imperative. You have worked yourself into a BIG pickle.


I still attend church every Sunday, viewing it as a family event of sorts that I should participate in. I want my kids to make moral choices in their lives, so the moral teachings are good for them.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

Casual Observer said:


> And the bit about closing her eyes during sex because she couldn't stop thinking about what he viewed her as, comparisons to the porn, whatever... why doesn't that greatly sadden him? Why doesn't he realize he is not the man she likely courted and married and what that means to her? He goes to church weekly out of duty but he doesn't believe. Think about the two of them, hearing the same message, with her knowing that he no longer thinks what she is hearing is relevant. It would be better, I think, if he weren't even there. Plenty of families manage where one is devout and the other not. They do it by not trying to pretend. They do it with some manner of respect.
> 
> But we don't know anything about their earlier days. We don't know if he was an alpha-male leader guy who made promises of being a biblically-inspired husband and father. We're kind of making assumptions of that, but what if she saw him as a work-in-progress and accepted him thinking he would grow into the role? That's not what he says though; he says during dating and early marriage he shared the same theology as her.
> 
> Hmm. Also taken aback by his claim "We have a healthy sex life" and then the later reveal that she has to close her eyes. I don't think he can say anything beyond "we have sex" as being something in common about their sex life. It's certainly not healthy.


Yes, it saddens me that she closes her eyes during sex. I have not mentioned it to her since she brought it up, other than noticing it. She explained to me that she can't look at me because I have looked at porn. 

I still go to church because it seems like the right thing to do - to participate in our family's outings, to teach morality to our kids, to be there. 

I never claimed to be a super Christian leader who was going to save our family from damnation and save the world too. I am not an alpha personality type. I elaborated more about my faith in my post earlier this morning, so that should help clear things up. 

We have sex 2-3 times per week, and we both climax, so there is some "health" to to this sex life.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

StarFires said:


> Very good point. Instead, he views it as just another complaint from her nagging mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> Including the ones of different faiths. They work it out, like you say. I remember my grandfather and (step) grandmother always attended different churches of different religions. They were a great couple and set a great example.
> 
> Great perspective on you.
> 
> 
> 
> You might have read my many mentions of "the man in our heads." We women have a tendency to conjure the perfect husband and then get disappointed when we realize the man in our heads and the man we married are two different people. One is real imagination and the other is just real, meaning imperfect as we all are.
> 
> So I know you're probably right, but I don't think I jumped the gun in feeling she has reasons beyond that to be disappointed. It seems like, whatever her expectations were, she ended up with very little and what she might consider to be little of nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL That's where I get the clear and present notion that his objective was to secure himself regular and convenient coochie. He has that so it's the all-important aspect of his marriage - so important to him that regular and convenient = healthy and nothing else matters since he's getting it. I'm actually surprised this guy is not abusive. He has so many hallmarks of the typical narcissist or borderline. But again, if he is autistic, it could 'splain some of this. Not all but some, and I bet she could find some comfort in that explanation, as opposed to feeling duped and neglected.


Wow - no, I have never abused my wife. No, I'm not autistic either. My idea with marriage was to have a deep bond with my soulmate. You are making me out to be a monster when I am not. I am also not "very little." I earn good money, provide a nice life for her and the kids, am tall, dark, and handsome, always meeting her sexual needs. I did not come here to be belittled, but to see if this is a normal relationship, if others experience this same thing, or how to cope or improve myself. 

As for the religious claims against me, please see my earlier posts from this morning.


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## 3Xnocharm

Religious beliefs, or non beliefs are, very personal. I feel like while its ok for her to express her disappointment that your views changed, she should at least respect your right to it, just as you respect her right to continue HER beliefs. You still attend services, so that to me does show effort on your part to respect how she feels. She isnt returning that respect. She feels duped, which is making her angry and resentful. You two probably need counseling to learn to come to an understanding with each other about this matter. 

It does sound like you two need to spend child free time together, date nights every week, at least. While I dont personally think normal porn use is a big deal, your wife obviously does, so I think you really need to just give it up. It doesnt sound like you use it heavily, so would it really be such an issue for you to stop? I was glad to read that you have been easing up over controlling the money, it sounds like she should be able to treat herself sometimes. You both seem to be fighting for control over everything. So there is something else you can work on in counseling, compromise.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

3Xnocharm said:


> Religious beliefs, or non beliefs are, very personal. I feel like while its ok for her to express her disappointment that your views changed, she should at least respect your right to it, just as you respect her right to continue HER beliefs. You still attend services, so that to me does show effort on your part to respect how she feels. She isnt returning that respect. She feels duped, which is making her angry and resentful. You two probably need counseling to learn to come to an understanding with each other about this matter.
> 
> It does sound like you two need to spend child free time together, date nights every week, at least. While I dont personally think normal porn use is a big deal, your wife obviously does, so I think you really need to just give it up. It doesnt sound like you use it heavily, so would it really be such an issue for you to stop? I was glad to read that you have been easing up over controlling the money, it sounds like she should be able to treat herself sometimes. You both seem to be fighting for control over everything. So there is something else you can work on in counseling, compromise.


I agree. My changing theology is likely the root cause of her making little annoyances huge problems between us. I respect her faith and even attend services, but I think that she condemns my lack of faith (agnosticism). I am going to try to spend more one-on-one time with her and quit the porn.


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## sokillme

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I listed her complaints against me to paint a picture of my reality and to ask if this is normal. I put much effort into my marriage, so please do not accuse me of doing nothing. I want to stay married, but I want our relationship to improve. I never touched alcohol after she got mad at me. I stopped wearing boxers after she got mad at me. I now ask her what toppings she wants on the pizza every time, after she got mad at me. I still go to church to please her. I am simply wondering about what needs to happen in order for her to turn down the arguments. I attend our children's sporting events. Please do not accuse me of only wanting sex, for I want many other things including good relationships with my wife and children.


Maybe your problem is you are inauthentic. You probably are not going to have a good life if that is your MO marriage or not. Even the bible says not to be luke warm.


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## sokillme

personofinterest said:


> So to translate, it was too hard to live according to The Bible, which means you probably found some of its commands and restrictions to be cramping your style, so your answer was to just Chuck it all together. Surely you can understand why that might be troubling to the wife who thought she married a godly Christian husband.
> 
> As for the rest, the sheer length and structure of your opening post leads me to believe that you tend to be somewhat obsessive and controlling, that what your wife does is never good enough, and that there are a myriad of issues in your marriage besides just the religious aspect. I am also suspicious that you probably have trouble taking responsibility for any of those issues, preferring to think that it's all your wife just like you preferred to think God was wrong when Christianity got to hard.


I don't think he is the only one who is obsessive and controlling in that relationship. I don't know about you but my love and good treatment of my wife is not dependent upon if she lives up to my definition of if she is a good christian or not. And last time I looked it's a sin for it to be. I think his wife should stop casting the first stone.


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## Cynthia

It sounds like you both view Christianity as a set of rules to be followed rather than building a relationship with your creator and savior.

You also seem to feel that you don't measure up in general. You put on a facade for the world rather than living and authentic life. You go to porn rather than working through the issues with your flesh and blood wife. Porn objectifies people and is a form of escape from reality.

If you are having trouble staying away from porn, you have probably developed a dependence on it to fill a void. It's important to find out what that void is and find healthier ways to resolve whatever you feel you are missing.


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## StarFires

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Wow - no, I have never abused my wife. No, I'm not autistic either. My idea with marriage was to have a deep bond with my soulmate. You are making me out to be a monster when I am not. I am also not "very little." I earn good money, provide a nice life for her and the kids, am tall, dark, and handsome, always meeting her sexual needs. I did not come here to be belittled, but to see if this is a normal relationship, if others experience this same thing, or how to cope or improve myself.
> 
> As for the religious claims against me, please see my earlier posts from this morning.


I don't know where "I have never abused my wife" came from because I neither stated nor suggested any such thing, so I didn't make you out to be a monster. That's actually you falsely accusing me. I submitted you are neglectful, which is clear to me from your wife's many complaints but is also far from monstrous. If you wanted a deep bond with your soulmate, your actions or inactions don't support that and are not conducive to forming and nurturing a close relationship. Providing for your family isn't all that is required of a husband and father. If you told us your wife is a nag and then gave 3 or 4 of her complaints, I would have only those to consider and form my opinion about. But her complaints are numerous, which makes it appear you do very little as a husband coming from someone who says they want a deep bond. It doesn't occur just because you said "I do." It requires effort and your daily input. But reading all that made me feel awful for your wife's sake because it doesn't seem like you respect her, don't want her to make any requests or requirements of you at all because you would rather not do anything except what you want to do, like initiate sex and walk around in your boxers. Just the things that you want to do and very few of the things she needs you to do. Yet, you said you are unhappy, but it seems like you're unhappy that you are expected to act like a husband and would prefer to be defiant.

So no, it really isn't normal for a wife to have so many complaints about her husband, but the abnormality is not that she complains. It's that her husband gave her all that to complain and be unhappy about, so unhappy, in fact, that she wants to die. You should be concerned about that. It should give you pause to learn your "soulmate" is that miserable in her marriage.

And I just remembered your ADD diagnosis. I initially thought you may be ADD because I recognize the symptoms. But then I thought the autism suggestion was probably more likely since you miss the emotional cues, whereas people with ADD are usually more capable of sympathy and empathy. Nevertheless, you might try a different ADD medication since you didn't like the previous one, and there are therapies you can also look into. It explains a lot to know you had that diagnosis, so you might need to get your wife educated on the topic. A lot of people might read some things about the disorder and think they understand, but it's hard to obtain a full understanding without talking with a health professional about it. There are some things she expects without realizing you aren't capable in the way that she makes the requests. She will probably have to learn how to communicate differently, and that can help your relationship a lot in terms of her expectations and your input. Once she fully understands your tendencies, it will likely come as quite a relief to her to know she's not a neglected wife intentionally but that you are misunderstood.

Look into this for both your sakes. You need to know you didn't marry a nag, and she needs to know to recognize your inclinations. It could make a world of difference in your marriage. And if you haven't told her lately that you love her, tell her now. If you're at work right now, then call her. You and she need to talk. Remind her that she's your soulmate. She's had a hard time of it.


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## badsanta

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I have *never *been diagnosed with autism. I was diagnosed with ADD and depression when I was a teenager, but I only took medication for a year or so back then. The drugs messed with my mind powerfully, so I stopped taking them.


Your ways of writing seem that you are someone that is extremely analytical and at the same time struggling to communicate your emotions. Even if you don't have autism, I would encourage you to read about it, particularly the various forms of high functioning autism. It will give you a model of people that feel completely misunderstood and struggle to communicate and what it takes to overcome that (people with autism do not take medication for it, they deal with it by helping others better understand them).

An example of someone with autsim would be Albert Einstein.


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## StarFires

sokillme said:


> I don't think he is the only one who is obsessive and controlling in that relationship. I don't know about you but my love and good treatment of my wife is not dependent upon if she lives up to my definition of if she is a good christian or not. And last time I looked it's a sin for it to be. I think his wife should stop casting the first stone.


I don't think he said her love is contingent. I'm not sure why you said that. Maybe I missed it.

She's legitimately disappointed with a lot of things and miserable from a culmination of them all. But to separate the religion issue between them, she thought she was marrying a spiritual leader for her family. Her husband changed his mind about that very important aspect of her selection process, but she can't very well change her mind and send her children back to where they came from so she can start over in the selection process to find a believer for her children. I think I understand how she feels. She might also feel she could overlook some things (her discretion) but she's weighted and worn out by there being so many.

I have always had some questions about various things in the Bible (where did Cain find a wife for starters), but not being able to explain everything didn't make my faith waver one bit. I could never say I no longer believe in God just because I don't have all the answers to my questions surrounding the Bible. That seems capricious to me. If it were rules of the religion or particular doctrine I disagreed with, then I would find another church to attend.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

Starfires - you said, "I'm actually surprised this guy is not abusive. He has so many hallmarks of the typical narcissist or borderline." That is why I shared that I have never abused her. I was answering your implication that I was violent. I do quite a bit for my wife and family, so please don't say that all I do is "initiate sex and walk around in your boxers." I am very concerned for my wife, and that is why I am seeking advice. I will tell her that I love her as soon as I see her tonight.


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## StarFires

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Starfires - you said, "I'm actually surprised this guy is not abusive. He has so many hallmarks of the typical narcissist or borderline." That is why I shared that I have never abused her. I was answering your implication that I was violent. I do quite a bit for my wife and family, so please don't say that all I do is "initiate sex and walk around in your boxers." I am very concerned for my wife, and that is why I am seeking advice. I will tell her that I love her as soon as I see her tonight.



We have another communication gap here. I made no implication whatsoever. To say "I'm surprised he's not abusive" is acknowledging that you're not abusive. Really now. It's possible you came here and expected everyone to tell you what a nag or witch or crazy or your wife is. Has learning that the problems mainly stem from you made you defensive? Would you calm down and get a grip? I'm actually really happy, for the sake of your marriage, that you told us about your diagnosis because it explains so much and can be treated, but you've already proven yourself more intelligent than twice misconstruing my statement, so I can't help thinking you're just being defensive because I don't recognize that as an ADD symptom or tendency. Or is it? You tell me.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

Starfires - I came here to share what is going on in my world and try to make sense of it, to try to improve my lot in life, to hear the perspectives of others, to change if needed. I agree with another poster who said that my wife and I struggle with control issues. I think we both share some of the blame for the current, poor state of the marriage, but I feel like you are putting the blame 100% on me. Please stop suggesting that I am mentally or emotionally damaged goods, who needs to be "treated." By the way, your suggestion to tell my wife that I love her was a good one, and she appreciated it.


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## Cynthia

From what you've stated, the marriage problems are certainly not all your fault, but the only person you have control over is yourself. You can't control what your wife does or doesn't do, but you can control your attitude and how you treat her.

I think it's important that you begin to discover who you are as a person and walk in integrity as that person. It's also important that you and your wife form an identity as a couple who loves each other and has each other's backs. You can't control this, but your wife needs to forgive you. You might start that process by apologizing for changing your mind about your faith and specifically asking your wife to forgive you, even though you cannot in good conscience go back to how you believed before. That is part of walking in integrity. You own up to what you have done to hurt people and apologize, but that doesn't mean going back to what you were before. It means staying true to who you are as a person. You don't have to apologize for who you are. You apologize for changing your mind on something that is of great value to your wife and not in good conscience being able to pretend. That may be a good place to start in resolving the marriage problems.

She also needs to know that she is all you want and that you think she is beautiful and wonderful and that you're sorry for using porn. She needs you to rebuild the intimate trust that you destroyed.


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## Marduk

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I have apologized to her numerous time about my change in theology, and I realize this has a huge impact on her life. Having said that, I can't just fake being a good Christian, if I don't believe it. I agree, we have something worth salvaging, especially with the kids involved.




Can you be a good Christian without believing in the literal translation of the bible?

Or what others tell you the bible means? Is there no middle ground here whatsoever?


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## StarFires

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Please stop suggesting that I am mentally or emotionally damaged goods, who needs to be "treated."


There you go again. Now I know you're being defensive.

You and another member really made my day, as she posted with some very delightful news, and you posted about your diagnosis. I'm happy and hopeful for you and for her. But you're too busy accusing me of incredibly stupid amd erroneous crap to recognize that I think your diagnosis is good news for the sake of your marriage. It's your diagnosis and "mentally or emotionally damaged goods" must be what you think of it because I never implied any such thing. There are people I know with the same diagnosis, and that's why I recognized it in your post right away, but I love them too much to think so little of them as you seem to think of yourself. And yes, it's a diagnosis. And yes, it can and should be treated. There isn't one thing offensive about me saying it because I'm simply stating a fact, a positive and optimistic fact, but you insist on being offended. As you wish since you must insist. But sure hope you don't act so defensively like this with your wife or she'd probably want to dump her own head down the toilet to have to live with this kind of defensive silliness. ADD and ADHD are nothing to be ashamed of.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

Marduk said:


> Can you be a good Christian without believing in the literal translation of the bible?
> 
> Or what others tell you the bible means? Is there no middle ground here whatsoever?


It depends on what denomination of Christianity. Our denomination believes in a literal translation of the Bible as the perfect Word of God. Accordingly, God created the earth in 7 periods of 24 hours, the flood covered the earth for 40 days and killed everyone not on the ark, and Jesus was God in person, etc. No, there is no middle ground there; you either believe it all perfectly or you are wrong and probably an apostate. I had so many questions building over the years that it simply reached a point that I could not longer accept as truth. I'm basically an agnostic now, so it might be true or it might be bogus.


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## Marduk

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> It depends on what denomination of Christianity. Our denomination believes in a literal translation of the Bible as the perfect Word of God. Accordingly, God created the earth in 7 periods of 24 hours, the flood covered the earth for 40 days and killed everyone not on the ark, and Jesus was God in person, etc. No, there is no middle ground there; you either believe it all perfectly or you are wrong and probably an apostate. I had so many questions building over the years that it simply reached a point that I could not longer accept as truth. I'm basically an agnostic now, so it might be true or it might be bogus.


And is there no fluidity at all to this for your wife?

It's literally believe it all or you're an apostate? If she's 100% bought in and that was a condition of marriage, then that's the elephant in the room. If there's some space to move there, perhaps you can work within or around it.

She must have doubts herself, and perhaps you acting on your doubts is making her double down on overcompensating for hers.


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## Cynthia

The Biblical definition of Christian is a follower of Christ. Denominations are about different perspectives on scripture.

Most Christians believe in a literal interpretation of scripture, as do I, but the Bible isn't a simple document. For example, many people believe that the earth was created in six 24 hour periods, but they don't take into account other factors that may call this into question. I believe in the literal creation story. I just don't believe that a day means an actual 24 period, when compared to other parts of scripture and observation of the earth. There is also the issue of the Bible not being written in English, which can lead to misunderstanding as well. I think a lot of Christians are too rigid in their perceptions, which leads to much misunderstanding. Most Christians view scripture through a cultural lens that is not accurate to what the scripture means. For example, there are a lot of Christians who still believe that the husband is the head of the home, because they have no idea what the scriptures they refer to actually mean.

One of the main reasons for this is that Christians do not read the Bible for themselves. They rely on pastors and teaches to preach and that's all they rely on rather than reading the Bible for themselves and studying what it actually teaches. Going to church doesn't make a person a Christian. Surrendering oneself to Jesus Christ and recognizing him as God and savior does.


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## Cynthia

Marduk said:


> She must have doubts herself, and perhaps you acting on your doubts is making her double down on overcompensating for hers.


I wouldn't count on it. This is how she lives her life. She considers herself to be one flesh with her husband who has turned from their faith. That could create a lot of anxiety and pain for her.

Don't assume someone has doubts about their faith. I don't. When I have questions, I dig deeper. This only strengthens my faith.


----------



## Marduk

CynthiaDe said:


> I wouldn't count on it. This is how she lives her life. She considers herself to be one flesh with her husband who has turned from their faith. That could create a lot of anxiety and pain for her.
> 
> Don't assume someone has doubts about their faith. I don't. When I have questions, I dig deeper. This only strengthens my faith.


What I'm trying to say is if she has doubts (and honestly I think everybody has doubts at some time in their life, but perhaps I'm wrong) - but if she has doubts, and feels bad for them, and he has doubts and is acting on them, that could amplify her strict adherence to the literal word of her faith?

There are many examples of gay closeted men being very anti-gay in politics for example. Them having doubts about their own sexuality actually fuelled their anti gay rhetoric and position to compensate.

Imagine if she's actually having doubts. Imagine what that could mean if they find common ground here. 

I'm not saying it's necessarily happening, I'm saying it might be a facet to explore.


----------



## badsanta

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Starfires - I came here to share what is going on in my world and try to make sense of it, to try to improve my lot in life, to hear the perspectives of others, to change if needed. I agree with another poster who said that my wife and I struggle with control issues. I think we both share some of the blame for the current, poor state of the marriage, but I feel like you are putting the blame 100% on me. Please stop suggesting that I am mentally or emotionally damaged goods, who needs to be "treated." By the way, your suggestion to tell my wife that I love her was a good one, and she appreciated it.


The notion that you may have a mental condition that requires treatment (regardless of being correct) seems to be a trigger for you @DoesItGetBetter? As exciting as it can be to argue with @StarFires about this, you would have no need to defend yourself on this topic if you felt very confident about yourself and that this is not a problem. You could just say, "nah, that is not the problem and move on."

You mentioned having a horrible reaction to some previous medications related to ADD and depression. In your defense, medications for treating depression and regulating mental chemistry are often a long trial and error process that sometimes conclude with a psychiatrist advising that no medication is needed. Whatever happened during that time, it is generally believed that holistic treatments combined with coping skills is way more powerful than anything that a prescription drug can take. That being said, everyone struggles with problems and often needs help. Obviously you have been is a situation that you asked for help and understand enough to recognize that what you are going through now is not related. 

I am generally not very much of a religious person myself. But one of the most powerful coping mechanisms known to society is what would be described as our faith. Often for me this is the notion of accepting there is so much about life that is beyond our ability to understand or control. You kind of have to give yourself over to that and try to appreciate that everyone around you loves you even if they seem to be attacking you. If your wife has issues with you that she complains about. Hey, it is because she cares about you and wants to see you take better care of your family together. Imagine if she didn't care to complain about things? Then you would have a serious problem. The fact that she does complain means she really cares about you. So if you don't 100% stop at stop signs, her way to love you is to get upset about that because she wants you to always be around. My point being is that love is often extremely difficult to recognize as it comes in all shapes and forms, including tough love. Faith is the same way, you just have to learn to recognize that it is there and caring for you unconditionally without asking anything of you in return. Otherwise not stopping at stop signs could have won yourself a Darwin award. 

Meanwhile @StarFires often has some very good advice on this forum. She is just trying to help and offer a different perspective. Even if you feel her perspective is not true, it very well could be portions of reality that your wife somehow perceives from you at times. You might find it helpful to wrap your head around her point of view and ask yourself how could someone misinterpret you so wrong. We are all human and all imperfect. If someone is trying to help, patience and reflection are your best friends. 

In the meantime I would encourage you to try some different churches in your area. The experience between two can be like night and day. You may find one that suits you much better and is meaningful as opposed to just being a body present in the pew just so you can say you were there. A friend of mine told me that church is sometimes like a hospital for the emotionally wounded that just need a little pep talk to get back up on their feet and be the best that they can be. If you find a different church you like better, your wife and family will follow! 

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## StarFires

CynthiaDe said:


> The Biblical definition of Christian is a follower of Christ. Denominations are about different perspectives on scripture.
> 
> Most Christians believe in a literal interpretation of scripture, as do I, but the Bible isn't a simple document. For example, many people believe that the earth was created in six 24 hour periods, but they don't take into account other factors that may call this into question. I believe in the literal creation story. I just don't believe that a day means an actual 24 period, when compared to other parts of scripture and observation of the earth. There is also the issue of the Bible not being written in English, which can lead to misunderstanding as well. I think a lot of Christians are too rigid in their perceptions, which leads to much misunderstanding. Most Christians view scripture through a cultural lens that is not accurate to what the scripture means. For example, there are a lot of Christians who still believe that the husband is the head of the home, because they have no idea what the scriptures they refer to actually mean.
> 
> One of the main reasons for this is that Christians do not read the Bible for themselves. They rely on pastors and teaches to preach and that's all they rely on rather than reading the Bible for themselves and studying what it actually teaches. Going to church doesn't make a person a Christian. Surrendering oneself to Jesus Christ and recognizing him as God and savior does.


Quoting for truth.

Just to add one point is that people aren't taught to read the Bible. They're mostly taught to open at any given page and read there and turn to any other page and read there. But there is no book that you would open the middle of, read two paragraphs, and expect to know what the whole book means and is about. The same with the Bible. Begin with the first book, first chapter, and first verse and don't stop until the last word of the last page of the last book. It's a captivating, engrossing, and REALLY great story to read. You'll probably need other materials, like a Bible dictionary, concordance, and maybe a commentary to help you along, but you will enjoy reading it.



DoesItGetBetter? said:


> It depends on what denomination of Christianity. Our denomination believes in a literal translation of the Bible as the perfect Word of God. Accordingly, God created the earth in 7 periods of 24 hours, the flood covered the earth for 40 days and killed everyone not on the ark, and Jesus was God in person, etc. No, there is no middle ground there; you either believe it all perfectly or you are wrong and probably an apostate. I had so many questions building over the years that it simply reached a point that I could not longer accept as truth. I'm basically an agnostic now, so it might be true or it might be bogus.


So consider if you will that you stated two events incorrectly. 

_7 periods of 24 hours_
Was actually 6 days and He rested on the 7th.
But like CynthiaDe indicated, they weren't 24 hour periods. 

2 Peter 3:8 
_*"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."*_

_the flood covered the earth for 40 days_
It rained 40 days and 40 nights (and many more days of lighter rain) and I don't remember how long water covered the earth but it was well over 100 days. Maybe 150 days?

So, I'm wondering if you judge some things too quickly without full knowledge. Were you ever committed to learning the Bible and being a Christian? I know even people who know the Bible REALLY well (I sure don't) might still have questions, but they don't base their entire faith on the lack of answers.

A lot of Christians don't believe all that much in the Old Testament because it has nothing to do with Christianity. They identify with the New Testament and use the Old Testament as maybe a teaching tool of how the story began and continued.


----------



## StarFires

Marduk said:


> What I'm trying to say is if she has doubts (and honestly I think everybody has doubts at some time in their life, but perhaps I'm wrong) - but if she has doubts, and feels bad for them, and he has doubts and is acting on them, that could amplify her strict adherence to the literal word of her faith?
> 
> There are many examples of gay closeted men being very anti-gay in politics for example. Them having doubts about their own sexuality actually fuelled their anti gay rhetoric and position to compensate.
> 
> Imagine if she's actually having doubts. Imagine what that could mean if they find common ground here.
> 
> I'm not saying it's necessarily happening, I'm saying it might be a facet to explore.


I believe, and is also what BadSanta is saying, that if he perhaps tried a different church/denomination, that could be catalyst for the common ground you're referring to. Even if she isn't having any doubts, it could still lead them to a minister and congregation they can both be comfortable with. He gets away from the rigidity of the denomination he doesn't care for, and she get's her spiritual head of household back. 

She feels, and knows according to Bible teaching, that they are unevenly yoked as long as he remains out of the faith. Finding another spiritual home can set the standard for a happy marital home since it's a requirement for her. He could at least try. He doesn't have to believe every word in the Bible to be a Christian, like CynthiaDe said.


----------



## In Absentia

Why don't you give the OP a little break? He's lost his faith, which happens, and it's not an easy thing to deal with. I have been there. It's unfortunate that his wife sees this as betrayal and that she is very unflexible. The OP has done nothing wrong and he is trying to accommodate everything... he is still going to church. If this is a deal breaker for the wife, then she should divorce him... hold on... that might be against her religion... :laugh:


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## Diana7

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> It depends on what denomination of Christianity. Our denomination believes in a literal translation of the Bible as the perfect Word of God. Accordingly, God created the earth in 7 periods of 24 hours, the flood covered the earth for 40 days and killed everyone not on the ark, and Jesus was God in person, etc. No, there is no middle ground there; you either believe it all perfectly or you are wrong and probably an apostate. I had so many questions building over the years that it simply reached a point that I could not longer accept as truth. I'm basically an agnostic now, so it might be true or it might be bogus.


Its about believing that the Bible is Gods word but mainly its about a relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ his son. Jesus is so awesome and amazing, I just cant understand why anyone would reject Him 'IF' they truly knew him in the first place. Many are religious but don't even have that relationship and that's why they may turn away.


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## Diana7

Marduk said:


> And is there no fluidity at all to this for your wife?
> 
> It's literally believe it all or you're an apostate? If she's 100% bought in and that was a condition of marriage, then that's the elephant in the room. If there's some space to move there, perhaps you can work within or around it.
> 
> She must have doubts herself, and perhaps you acting on your doubts is making her double down on overcompensating for hers.


Why must she have doubts?


----------



## Diana7

CynthiaDe said:


> I wouldn't count on it. This is how she lives her life. She considers herself to be one flesh with her husband who has turned from their faith. That could create a lot of anxiety and pain for her.
> 
> Don't assume someone has doubts about their faith. I don't. When I have questions, I dig deeper. This only strengthens my faith.


I am the same, the more of life I have lived, the more I go though, the stronger my faith gets. Not saying I understand everything, no where near it, no one does, but my core faith is very strong. 
I have friends whose husband aren't Christians and its very hard for them. Its like they are on a different path in life. That's why God tells us not to marry anyone who doesn't share our faith. My first husband wasn't a believer and my present one is. After my divorce I was determined that I would only marry a guy who was a strong Christian, and what a difference it makes having God in the marriage and having a strong Christian for a husband. 

I totally understand the ops wife being upset about this.


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## Openminded

I completely understand your feelings about religion because I once lived a similar life. Fortunately my husband shared my feelings so there was no conflict. Finding a more liberal denomination (which worked for me) would likely be at odds with your wife's conservative beliefs, if they are strongly held, but you could certainly suggest it as a compromise. It's good that you continue to go to her church as a family but that's not a real solution in your wife's eyes. She wants the man back who shared her faith and that's understandable. The problem is that you are unlikely to return to that faith and she'll likely never be happy otherwise. Some marriages survive religious differences long-term but unfortunately many don't.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

Marduk said:


> And is there no fluidity at all to this for your wife?
> 
> It's literally believe it all or you're an apostate? If she's 100% bought in and that was a condition of marriage, then that's the elephant in the room. If there's some space to move there, perhaps you can work within or around it.
> 
> She must have doubts herself, and perhaps you acting on your doubts is making her double down on overcompensating for hers.


Thank you everyone for the feedback. Marduk, my wife has a literal, fundamentalist view of the Bible. She likes our current church and will not consider changing churches, as most of them are wrong in her eyes. I don't think she has doubts. She is of the following mindset: "If the Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it for me." 

I will keep trying to make the best of our marriage. I told her she is wonderful and that I love her. I planned a date for this weekend. It is like my wife has an "on/off switch" when it comes to her treatment of me. When she is happy with me, all feels right with the world. When she can't stand me, I question what am I doing with my life.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Starfires - I came here to share what is going on in my world and try to make sense of it, to try to improve my lot in life, to hear the perspectives of others, to change if needed. I agree with another poster who said that my wife and I struggle with control issues. I think we both share some of the blame for the current, poor state of the marriage, but I feel like you are putting the blame 100% on me. Please stop suggesting that I am mentally or emotionally damaged goods, who needs to be "treated." By the way, your suggestion to t*ell my wife that I love her was a good one, and she appreciated it.*


When is the last time she said she loved you?


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## Girl_power

I think it’s also a fundamental difference between men and women. Women talk so much, and sometimes we “pick” on our men too much and we don’t really mean any malice but it. But see typically very sensitive to criticism. I have caught many men in my life say... she yelled at (when I never raised my voice) or she’s mad at (when I am not even mad). What men think is yelling and angry and mad and critical is not what women think it is.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> When is the last time she said she loved you?


We told each other that we loved each other yesterday. Even though yesterday was stressful with the kids being terrible (fighting, annoying, screaming, etc), my wife and I were amicable with each other, which was nice.


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## Girl_power

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> We told each other that we loved each other yesterday. Even though yesterday was stressful with the kids being terrible (fighting, annoying, screaming, etc), my wife and I were amicable with each other, which was nice.




My exH thought I was overly critical. But from my point of view I wasn’t, and I just loved him so much. I would do anything to go back in time and change the way I talked to him because I had no idea what a negative impact it had on him. 

I think that your wife loves you so much and she has no idea how much her words are affecting you. I had no idea either. There’s a bad saying that goes... if she stops being critical/complaining that’s when you need to worry. She cares about you and loves you that’s why she’s “mean” to you. I know it sounds counterintuitive but men and women really are from different planets.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

Girl_power said:


> My exH thought I was overly critical. But from my point of view I wasn’t, and I just loved him so much. I would do anything to go back in time and change the way I talked to him because I had no idea what a negative impact it had on him.
> 
> I think that your wife loves you so much and she has no idea how much her words are affecting you. I had no idea either. There’s a bad saying that goes... if she stops being critical/complaining that’s when you need to worry. She cares about you and loves you that’s why she’s “mean” to you. I know it sounds counterintuitive but men and women really are from different planets.


I appreciate it, Girl_power. It seems that my wife and I view criticism differently. I always thought that me withholding criticism from my wife was a way of showing love, showing that I am willing to sacrifice my own desires for hers, to not cause friction, to overlook a perceived wrong. I agree that she loves me, and maybe her trying to fix everything about me is a way that she shows love to me in her mind.


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## badsanta

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> We told each other that we loved each other yesterday. Even though yesterday was stressful with the kids being terrible (fighting, annoying, screaming, etc), my wife and I were amicable with each other, which was nice.


I'll share this....

When my wife and I were having issues, I thought it would be a good idea to stop and give each other a hug. Probably one of the worst ideas I have ever had. My wife would hug me in anger just to say, "there, I gave you your stupid hug!"

I asked a therapist about this idea and she said that you should not hug someone or try to make someone hug you if they do not want to. All you can do is let someone know that you want to give them a hug whenever they are ready for one. 

Why am I sharing this? ...well the notion of saying "I love you" can become somewhat automated and out of context. Think of saying that to someone as if giving them a hug. Make sure they are actually ready to hear it from you. If the moment was stressful and you were both amicable, you might want to first say, "thanks for all your help with the kids." Once she acknowledges that in a positive way, then the idea of saying "I love you" might be more sincere. 

When marriages have problems the notion of "I love you" can also come across as insincere. My wife would often tell me that she simply didn't believe it when I told her that I loved her. What I would later understand is that I was not communicating those words to her in enough context to let her know why I was telling her that I love her. 

So @DoesItGetBetter? don't just tell your wife you love her. Get her attention by sharing one of the reason's why you love her. For example tell her you think she is a great mom for the family. Then tell her you love her, then elaborate on what makes her a good mom. If you find something about her attractive, tell her that her hair looks nice. Then tell her you love her. Then elaborate on what it is about her hair that looks nice (how it is cut, styled, or how it just is naturally without her tending to it). 

Feel free to playfully request the same back. Of course don't expect your wife to explain to you why she loves you or give you a compliment if she does not seem in the mood. When my wife tells me she loves me, I'll look at her with a smile and say, "I know because I am freaking awesome aren't I!" That usually makes her ROFL because I am obviously full of flaws if you knew me in real life, but I always manage to try and stay positive. Another thing I do is that when my wife calls me on the phone, I answer by identifying myself with the exaggerated reasons she should tell me that she loves me. For example I'll answer the phone, "guinness record holder of the world's most adorable husband speaking..." ...and I change this greeting each time she call me. Give it a try if you think you can get away with that kind of banter! 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## DoesItGetBetter?

Thanks, Badsanta - complementing her is an area that I could work improve. Sometimes I just take her and for granted. I tried it yesterday, and it helped improve things.


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## Marduk

Diana7 said:


> Why must she have doubts?


I believe it's a human condition to have doubts. I could be wrong. Wasn't Jesus supposed to have doubts?


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## Marduk

Girl_power said:


> I think it’s also a fundamental difference between men and women. Women talk so much, and sometimes we “pick” on our men too much and we don’t really mean any malice but it. But see typically very sensitive to criticism. I have caught many men in my life say... she yelled at (when I never raised my voice) or she’s mad at (when I am not even mad). What men think is yelling and angry and mad and critical is not what women think it is.


My wife is very fond of yelling. 

She once yelled at me in the therapist's office. I asked her to stop yelling. She said she wasn't. Therapist said she was. Her response? 

"Oh."

After some digging, she realized that she came from a family that yelled all the time, and because she was a woman and I was 'a big strong man,' she felt free to yell at me.

It wasn't that yelling bothered me especially, it was that she gave herself freedom to yell at me. Of course, I could not yell at her, and she didn't yell at anyone else in her life except for me in general.

So it was literally that she let the rules be different for me because she knew I could take it and probably wouldn't leave. That's not such a great approach to relationships.

She still yells occasionally. The difference is that she now acknowledges she's doing it instead of claiming she didn't. And it doesn't happen so often any more. I'm good with that.


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## Marduk

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Thank you everyone for the feedback. Marduk, my wife has a literal, fundamentalist view of the Bible. She likes our current church and will not consider changing churches, as most of them are wrong in her eyes. I don't think she has doubts. She is of the following mindset: "If the Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it for me."
> 
> I will keep trying to make the best of our marriage. I told her she is wonderful and that I love her. I planned a date for this weekend. It is like my wife has an "on/off switch" when it comes to her treatment of me. When she is happy with me, all feels right with the world. When she can't stand me, I question what am I doing with my life.


This is good, but let's take it one step further. Is there any other church that appeals to you and your newfound spiritual position.

I wonder what it would be like for her if you still went to a church even if it wasn't your old one. Would that make a difference to her?

I'm trying to get the situation to be a little less binary here.


----------



## Girl_power

Marduk said:


> My wife is very fond of yelling.
> 
> 
> 
> She once yelled at me in the therapist's office. I asked her to stop yelling. She said she wasn't. Therapist said she was. Her response?
> 
> 
> 
> "Oh."
> 
> 
> 
> After some digging, she realized that she came from a family that yelled all the time, and because she was a woman and I was 'a big strong man,' she felt free to yell at me.
> 
> 
> 
> It wasn't that yelling bothered me especially, it was that she gave herself freedom to yell at me. Of course, I could not yell at her, and she didn't yell at anyone else in her life except for me in general.
> 
> 
> 
> So it was literally that she let the rules be different for me because she knew I could take it and probably wouldn't leave. That's not such a great approach to relationships.
> 
> 
> 
> She still yells occasionally. The difference is that she now acknowledges she's doing it instead of claiming she didn't. And it doesn't happen so often any more. I'm good with that.




It sounds like your wife and I are very similar. I am Christian as well and like my man to be a certain way. It’s like reverse sexism, I think he should be the man of the house and therefore “better” or a certain way of that makes sense.


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## MarriedTex

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Thank you everyone for the feedback. Marduk, my wife has a literal, fundamentalist view of the Bible. She likes our current church and will not consider changing churches, as most of them are wrong in her eyes. I don't think she has doubts. She is of the following mindset: "If the Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it for me."
> 
> I will keep trying to make the best of our marriage. I told her she is wonderful and that I love her. I planned a date for this weekend. It is like my wife has an "on/off switch" when it comes to her treatment of me. When she is happy with me, all feels right with the world. When she can't stand me, I question what am I doing with my life.


DIGB, the "on/off switch" is not a good thing for the long-term health of the relationship. I may be projecting my own situation onto yours, but take this concept for a spin and see if it fits:

The "on/off switch" actually is consequence of conditional love. Your wife loves you when you do the things she wants: go to church, take care of the kids, etc. But when you step out of her view of what is acceptable, she turns the switch off and your are unloved, made the feel diminished and perhaps even given the silent treatment. Does this sound familiar at all?

If so, you have a long road ahead for yourself. The only path ahead for your marriage rests in a relationship where equillibrium is only established when you give 95% and she gives 5%. You will know what it takes to keep the marriage going and generally maintain peace in the family. But the cost will be a loss of a sense of self. You will gradually lose touch with understanding the things that make you happy and will instead find yourself gravitating to selecting life activities / options most likely to "make her happy." 

I am now in the empty nest stage but am still feeling the after-effects of almost two decades of peace-making in order to maintain a "happy" home. I did not really develop my own interests well during the heavy engagement kid years. Rather, I poured myself into "wife approved" activities (i.e. coaching little league, active in Boy Scouts etc.) that got me out of the house in ways deemed "acceptable" by wife. Much good came of this, of course. Plenty of engagement with my kids, most importantly. So I don't regret the time spend in that regard. 

But, in many ways, I lost my own sense of self. What do I like to do? What is fulfilling to me? In a way, I outsourced the job to answering that question to my wife. When we would go out on dates, it would always be to the opera or symphony or something of that ilk that she liked. I thought she deserved to do what she liked most because she was in a stay-at-home role and had few outlets for "adult" activities. I didn't even really recognize how much I was just slogging through most of these "dates" until one unusual time when we went to see Seinfeld doing a stand-up routine. It was a revelation to go out on a date where I actually enjoyed what we were doing. It was fun, but it also made me realize how much I was sacrificing day-by-day, week-by-week just in order to keep the peace.

I could go on with more detail. But I'd be interested to hear if you see any parallels in your own situation. When presented with choices on what to do or how to act, how loudly does the question "How will my wife react" reverberate in your head? Is it a faint consideration in the background, or is it the first thing that pops into your mind? Of course, we always must keep the needs and feelings of our partners in mind when making our choices. But when paired with partners who must have it "their way" in order to be happy, you can wind up making choices to satisfy them while snuffing out your own shot at fulfillment. I hope this is not happening to you, but - if it is - it is important to recognize and deal with this situation sooner rather than later.


----------



## MarriedTex

Marduk said:


> This is good, but let's take it one step further. Is there any other church that appeals to you and your newfound spiritual position.
> 
> I wonder what it would be like for her if you still went to a church even if it wasn't your old one. Would that make a difference to her?
> 
> I'm trying to get the situation to be a little less binary here.


Marduk, your suggestion makes sense in a world where you are partnered with someone who is willing to compromise. If my reading of DIGB's situation is correct, he doesn't have that option. He must fit himself into his wife's worldview in order to earn her love. Normal people will compromise. DIGB must toe the line or feel the sting of retribution for countering her preferred approach / outcome. He is not in a relationship where he is loved unconditionally by his partner. He must "earn" the love in the relationship everyday by adhering as closely as possible to delivering on the behavior that wife finds to be '"acceptable."


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## pastasauce79

I separated myself from Catholicism after high school. I grew up in a very Catholic environment (schools, college, boyfriends.) But my change was before meeting my husband.

I understand what you said about religion because that's how I felt at that time.

My husband grew up with no religion, I call him my white canvas guy because he doesn't know anything about any religion and that's one of the reasons why I fell in love with him.

If my husband changed his views about religion, it would be a very difficult thing for me to deal with. But I understand that people change, and marriage is about compromising, as long as it doesn't make both partners unhappy.

Maybe you can find a faith based counselor. One that can be flexible with your beliefs and your wife's beliefs. Maybe this person can help you both finding a middle ground (compromise) in terms of religious views. A counselor can help you both with other issues as well; communication, intimacy, boundaries, etc. 

I'm recommending a faith based counselor because I'm guessing that's what your wife would prefer.

There's no perfect marriage. And marriage is between two different people. Sometimes it is between two different cultures, languages, races, etc. But what makes a marriage successful is the way both communicate and the way both spouses learn to accept their differences. It's hard and sometimes it doesn't work. 

You have to decide what to do. 

I wish you the best. Good luck!


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## azimuth

She might be scared. She was all-in for the marriage with someone she thought held the same goals and beliefs, has three kids, homeschooling them, and I assume she's a stay at home mom. If DIGB decides to leave, he can be with someone more like-minded fairly quickly and easily, while DIGB's wife will be with three kids, no job and no more husband. She might just be clinging to the old way of life to assuage her fear.

As a Christian, you can't control anyone else's walk. When you die, it's just you up there not anyone else. She can't force to you have faith or go to church. It seems like she thinks that she can control that, but it's not right, and it's not healthy. I hope she learns to give you space and let you go on your own walk. But she might be too afraid to let you go in case you don't come back.


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## 3Xnocharm

MarriedTex said:


> DIGB, the "on/off switch" is not a good thing for the long-term health of the relationship. I may be projecting my own situation onto yours, but take this concept for a spin and see if it fits:
> 
> The "on/off switch" actually is consequence of conditional love. Your wife loves you when you do the things she wants: go to church, take care of the kids, etc. But when you step out of her view of what is acceptable, she turns the switch off and your are unloved, made the feel diminished and perhaps even given the silent treatment. Does this sound familiar at all?
> 
> If so, you have a long road ahead for yourself. The only path ahead for your marriage rests in a relationship where equillibrium is only established when you give 95% and she gives 5%. You will know what it takes to keep the marriage going and generally maintain peace in the family. But the cost will be a loss of a sense of self. You will gradually lose touch with understanding the things that make you happy and will instead find yourself gravitating to selecting life activities / options most likely to "make her happy."


I wanted to quote this part because I think its brilliant insight. I feel based on reading OP's posts that this is EXACTLY their marriage dynamic.


----------



## Marduk

MarriedTex said:


> Marduk, your suggestion makes sense in a world where you are partnered with someone who is willing to compromise. If my reading of DIGB's situation is correct, he doesn't have that option. He must fit himself into his wife's worldview in order to earn her love. Normal people will compromise. DIGB must toe the line or feel the sting of retribution for countering her preferred approach / outcome. He is not in a relationship where he is loved unconditionally by his partner. He must "earn" the love in the relationship everyday by adhering as closely as possible to delivering on the behavior that wife finds to be '"acceptable."


That is not a path that I believe anyone can succeed on - the husband or the wife.

Life is change. It seems as if she still loves him, so change may yet be possible, within certain limited constraints.

Conditional love is reasonable when the boundaries are reasonable. For example, if my wife were to embrace polyamory, I would stop loving her. I think this is reasonable.

If my wife must conform to some rigid ideal in order for me to love her, then I wouldn't call it love. People have to grow. Who she was in her mid 20's is not who I expect (or want) her to be now.

You can't police someone into being who you want them to be.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

Marduk said:


> This is good, but let's take it one step further. Is there any other church that appeals to you and your newfound spiritual position.
> 
> I wonder what it would be like for her if you still went to a church even if it wasn't your old one. Would that make a difference to her?
> 
> I'm trying to get the situation to be a little less binary here.


I guess I'm agnostic - so I don't really think you can know about the afterlife (if any) for sure. As such, church does not appeal to me. To be with and support my family, to teach them good morals, I join them on Sunday mornings. Since my wife would not attend a different church, I do not push for a change there.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

MarriedTex said:


> DIGB, the "on/off switch" is not a good thing for the long-term health of the relationship. I may be projecting my own situation onto yours, but take this concept for a spin and see if it fits:
> 
> The "on/off switch" actually is consequence of conditional love. Your wife loves you when you do the things she wants: go to church, take care of the kids, etc. But when you step out of her view of what is acceptable, she turns the switch off and your are unloved, made the feel diminished and perhaps even given the silent treatment. Does this sound familiar at all?
> 
> If so, you have a long road ahead for yourself. The only path ahead for your marriage rests in a relationship where equillibrium is only established when you give 95% and she gives 5%. You will know what it takes to keep the marriage going and generally maintain peace in the family. But the cost will be a loss of a sense of self. You will gradually lose touch with understanding the things that make you happy and will instead find yourself gravitating to selecting life activities / options most likely to "make her happy."
> 
> I am now in the empty nest stage but am still feeling the after-effects of almost two decades of peace-making in order to maintain a "happy" home. I did not really develop my own interests well during the heavy engagement kid years. Rather, I poured myself into "wife approved" activities (i.e. coaching little league, active in Boy Scouts etc.) that got me out of the house in ways deemed "acceptable" by wife. Much good came of this, of course. Plenty of engagement with my kids, most importantly. So I don't regret the time spend in that regard.
> 
> But, in many ways, I lost my own sense of self. What do I like to do? What is fulfilling to me? In a way, I outsourced the job to answering that question to my wife. When we would go out on dates, it would always be to the opera or symphony or something of that ilk that she liked. I thought she deserved to do what she liked most because she was in a stay-at-home role and had few outlets for "adult" activities. I didn't even really recognize how much I was just slogging through most of these "dates" until one unusual time when we went to see Seinfeld doing a stand-up routine. It was a revelation to go out on a date where I actually enjoyed what we were doing. It was fun, but it also made me realize how much I was sacrificing day-by-day, week-by-week just in order to keep the peace.
> 
> I could go on with more detail. But I'd be interested to hear if you see any parallels in your own situation. When presented with choices on what to do or how to act, how loudly does the question "How will my wife react" reverberate in your head? Is it a faint consideration in the background, or is it the first thing that pops into your mind? Of course, we always must keep the needs and feelings of our partners in mind when making our choices. But when paired with partners who must have it "their way" in order to be happy, you can wind up making choices to satisfy them while snuffing out your own shot at fulfillment. I hope this is not happening to you, but - if it is - it is important to recognize and deal with this situation sooner rather than later.


Oh my gosh - you are saying things that I have been experiencing but unable to see or articulate. I too feel that I have been compromising much more than her. I absolutely ask myself all the time, "well, what would my wife want in this situation." Then I decide based on whatever she wants. You are right - I am just trying to keep her happy so I don't face any negativity from her. I haven't thought of my own wants in... I can't even think of one. I bought an xbox last year, so maybe that was it. And now she plays it, and I don't! LOL


----------



## Marduk

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I guess I'm agnostic - so I don't really think you can know about the afterlife (if any) for sure. As such, church does not appeal to me. To be with and support my family, to teach them good morals, I join them on Sunday mornings. Since my wife would not attend a different church, I do not push for a change there.


OK, I'm out of ideas. You two appear to be on two totally different ends of the spectrum here.

Someone's gotta break the stalemate somehow.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

MarriedTex said:


> Marduk, your suggestion makes sense in a world where you are partnered with someone who is willing to compromise. If my reading of DIGB's situation is correct, he doesn't have that option. He must fit himself into his wife's worldview in order to earn her love. Normal people will compromise. DIGB must toe the line or feel the sting of retribution for countering her preferred approach / outcome. He is not in a relationship where he is loved unconditionally by his partner. He must "earn" the love in the relationship everyday by adhering as closely as possible to delivering on the behavior that wife finds to be '"acceptable."


I think you nailed it - conditional love. I feel loved by her if I act and think in ways that please her and despised/rejected by her if I fail to meet her expectations. MarriedTex, did you ever get your wife to love you unconditionally? What did it take to do so? Did you ever find happiness in marriage? How do you cope?


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## 3Xnocharm

Personally I think unconditional love is overrated. All that does is set you up to be abused and taken advantage of. EVERYONE should have limits and boundaries.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

MarriedTex - More thoughts are coming to me to your point of conditional love and how I have been trying to earn her acceptance and love (or at least escape her blame/shame/angst/displeasure)... 
1) I bought her a newer vehicle to keep her happy, as I normally drive older ones. 
2) I go to church to keep her happy, as I normally would not go. 
3) I went to a men's group weekly for years to keep her happy, as I normally would not go. 
4) I told her family of my moral failings (lust) to keep her happy per her instruction, that I would never have done, which has tainted the relationship. 
5) I backed off looking into her credit card spending to help keep her happy. 
6) I watch only shows on TV or movies that she will not shame me for watching. 
7) I only spend my limited free time doing things that she approves of - yard care, care car, fix house, watch/play with kids. 
8) I'm not sure here but I might have given my friends up or not made new ones because I knew she would not approve of them or approve of me spending time away from the family (selfish).


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## Marduk

3Xnocharm said:


> Personally I think unconditional love is overrated. All that does is set you up to be abused and taken advantage of. EVERYONE should have limits and boundaries.


I actually don't think it exists at all in romantic relationships. Maybe a parent for their children. But in romantic relationships, it's a total fantasy at best or at worst a terrible form of codependency.


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## Marduk

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> MarriedTex - More thoughts are coming to me to your point of conditional love and how I have been trying to earn her acceptance and love (or at least escape her blame/shame/angst/displeasure)...
> 1) I bought her a newer vehicle to keep her happy, as I normally drive older ones.
> 2) I go to church to keep her happy, as I normally would not go.
> 3) I went to a men's group weekly for years to keep her happy, as I normally would not go.
> 4) *I told her family of my moral failings (lust) to keep her happy per her instruction*, that I would never have done, which has tainted the relationship.
> 5) I backed off looking into her credit card spending to help keep her happy.
> 6) *I watch only shows on TV or movies that she will not shame me for watching. *
> 7) *I only spend my limited free time doing things that she approves of - yard care, care car, fix house, watch/play with kids.*
> 8) I'm not sure here but I might have given my friends up or not made new ones because I knew she would not approve of them or approve of me spending time away from the family (selfish).


Uh, that's emotional abuse, my dude.

Someone that's being abused doesn't find ways to make to make their abuser happy so they stop abusing them.

They stand up, demand that it stops, and leave if it doesn't. Or in your case now, I'm saying just leave. Run like the freaking wind.

This is no longer a religious issue. This is straight up abuse.

And I hope the irony is not lost on you regarding someone abusing you while proclaiming to be a good Christian.


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## Girl_power

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> MarriedTex - More thoughts are coming to me to your point of conditional love and how I have been trying to earn her acceptance and love (or at least escape her blame/shame/angst/displeasure)...
> 
> 1) I bought her a newer vehicle to keep her happy, as I normally drive older ones.
> 
> 2) I go to church to keep her happy, as I normally would not go.
> 
> 3) I went to a men's group weekly for years to keep her happy, as I normally would not go.
> 
> 4) I told her family of my moral failings (lust) to keep her happy per her instruction, that I would never have done, which has tainted the relationship.
> 
> 5) I backed off looking into her credit card spending to help keep her happy.
> 
> 6) I watch only shows on TV or movies that she will not shame me for watching.
> 
> 7) I only spend my limited free time doing things that she approves of - yard care, care car, fix house, watch/play with kids.
> 
> 8) I'm not sure here but I might have given my friends up or not made new ones because I knew she would not approve of them or approve of me spending time away from the family (selfish).




Why?


----------



## StarFires

MarriedTex said:


> DIGB, the "on/off switch" is not a good thing for the long-term health of the relationship. I may be projecting my own situation onto yours, but take this concept for a spin and see if it fits:


Yep, I really think actually are projecting. I didn't read your whole post, so I don't know if you said anything that applies to his situation after I stopped reading. I stopped because I didn't think it did to that point. (Please see below)



azimuth said:


> She might be scared. She was all-in for the marriage with someone she thought held the same goals and beliefs, has three kids, homeschooling them, and I assume she's a stay at home mom. If DIGB decides to leave, he can be with someone more like-minded fairly quickly and easily, while DIGB's wife will be with three kids, no job and no more husband. She might just be clinging to the old way of life to assuage her fear.
> 
> As a Christian, you can't control anyone else's walk. When you die, it's just you up there not anyone else. She can't force to you have faith or go to church. It seems like she thinks that she can control that, but it's not right, and it's not healthy. I hope she learns to give you space and let you go on your own walk. But she might be too afraid to let you go in case you don't come back.


I'm not sure where he said or indicated any of those things.

He stated:
•	I used to profess a certain theology during dating and early marriage that my wife still currently professes, but I no longer claim to follow that religion anymore. 

•	Because I no longer hold to my old religious beliefs that my wife still believes, my wife holds this against me, blames me, accuses me of lying, falsely representing myself while dating. 

•	We both admitted last year that if we could do it over again, we would not have married each other, given our differing theology and value system and that we argue so much. However, we are still trying to make it work, especially because of the kids. 

o	I am not being a spiritual leader in our house.
o	I am not taking our kids to a weekly spiritual event and teaching there.

o	I don’t think that holidays are special, sacred days and decorate and get into the holiday spirit.[/QUOTE]

And the part about _"my wife holds this against me, blames me, accuses me of lying, falsely representing myself while dating"_ is crucial. She has every right to feel he baited and switched on her because she chose him based on those qualities. She wanted her marriage to be evenly yoked as indicated in the Bible that she believes in. She wanted a man who would father her children and assist her in raising them in their SHARED religion and convictions. So, she chose a man who shared those religious convictions. Of course she became disappointed, if not angry, when he turned into someone other than the person she selected. It has nothing to do with her trying to dictate his beliefs or force him to be religious like her or control him and his religious beliefs or switching on/off.

And who the heck wants a grinch around at Christmas time?

Most of her other complaints I could tell were rooted in and result of his condition. Not many people know or understand the full extent and spectrum of the indications of ADD. Not everyone who has an idea or knows someone with ADD has to live with that person, much less be married to them. And even if they do, they still cannot know what it's like for everyone else because the symptoms and indications can range from mild to severe. When the characteristics of the condition express themselves (which may or may not be often, it just depends), they can make a person feel mildly annoyed to utterly infuriated and any level of irritation in between. It's ongoing and unrelenting when you live with that person.

It also doesn't appear that she, herself, understands the indications, which is the reason I let him know she needs to be educated. She needs to know what and when to attribute the things he does and says to the condition, and she needs to know how and when to adjust her communication, her reactions, and her expectations. But also, he has confessed to not taking any medication, so he also has to take care of himself in order for their marriage to have a chance to work out better. Otherwise, his condition will keep on expressing itself exactly the way it's supposed to do, and she will continue to respond with disappointment and criticism.

The bottom line, guys, if someone complains that their knee hurts and then tells you they need knee replacement due to loss of cartilage and such, you don't keep on trying to tell them your opinion of why their knee hurts and projecting your experience as if they didn't already say. If they don't say, then that's invitation to offer your perspective and your experience. This woman who just might wish she could pull her hair out at almost any given moment of the day - not to mention has told him she hated her life and wishes she could die - didn't deserve to be vilified like a controlling bipolar witch.


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## 3Xnocharm

Holy crap, that isnt even conditional love, this is more like indentured servitude.


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## StarFires

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> MarriedTex - More thoughts are coming to me to your point of conditional love and how I have been trying to earn her acceptance and love (or at least escape her blame/shame/angst/displeasure)...
> 1) I bought her a newer vehicle to keep her happy, as I normally drive older ones.
> 2) I go to church to keep her happy, as I normally would not go.
> 3) I went to a men's group weekly for years to keep her happy, as I normally would not go.
> 4) I told her family of my moral failings (lust) to keep her happy per her instruction, that I would never have done, which has tainted the relationship.
> 5) I backed off looking into her credit card spending to help keep her happy.
> 6) I watch only shows on TV or movies that she will not shame me for watching.
> 7) I only spend my limited free time doing things that she approves of - yard care, care car, fix house, watch/play with kids.
> 8) I'm not sure here but I might have given my friends up or not made new ones because I knew she would not approve of them or approve of me spending time away from the family (selfish).


You don't have to bend over backward like this, you know.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

Girl_power said:


> Why?


I want her to love me, to keep being my wife, to somehow be happy if at all in my power, for when she is happy then I am happy. Something sounds wrong with this picture when I spell it out like this...


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## Girl_power

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I want her to love me, to keep being my wife, to somehow be happy if at all in my power, for when she is happy then I am happy. Something sounds wrong with this picture when I spell it out like this...




She is never going to change on her own. Try doing a 180 and see if her respect for you improves, because right now neither of you respect you.


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## Girl_power

And I really really hope your wife has a long list of things she does to make you happy as well. If not... what the heck are you doing.


----------



## Holdingontoit

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I want her to love me, to keep being my wife, to somehow be happy if at all in my power, for when she is happy then I am happy. Something sounds wrong with this picture when I spell it out like this...


If you don't share her religious beliefs, and you say you don't, then there probably is no way for her to be happy while she is married to you.
If you have no capacity to rekindle your religious beliefs, then you probably have no capacity to rekindle her feelings of love for you.
If you really want her to be happy, and you do not intend to rejoin her religion, then set her free.

And I agree with the others that you need to read and implement "No More Mr Nice Guy". Your lack of self-respect is frighteningly similar to mine. That is a very very bad place to be.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

Girl_power said:


> And I really really hope your wife has a long list of things she does to make you happy as well. If not... what the heck are you doing.


Yes, my wife has many good attributes: smart, attractive, abides by rules, cares for and teaches our kids, keeps the house nice, cooks, engages in sex a couple times per week, to name a few.


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## Girl_power

Does she know your unhappy?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I want her to love me, to keep being my wife, to somehow be happy if at all in my power, for when she is happy then I am happy. S*omething sounds wrong with this picture when I spell it out like this.*..


YEP


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

Girl_power said:


> Does she know your unhappy?


Yes, my wife and I have both shared in the past that we are unhappy in our marriage, and we have even admitted at one point that we would have married other people if we could, knowing what we know now. However, the fact that we have three children is a powerful force to keep trying to patch things up in an effort for them to turn out well. I feel that we both try hard to make our marriage work. For example, yesterday went well because I told her that I love her and how wonderful she is, giving her a massage. At those times, I enjoy being married to her because I feel good too when she feels good. Does this make me codependent?


----------



## Marduk

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I want her to love me, to keep being my wife, to somehow be happy if at all in my power, for when she is happy then I am happy. Something sounds wrong with this picture when I spell it out like this...




She doesn’t love you. 

She doesn’t want it to get better. 

Your happiness is at best irrelevant to her, and at worst something to undermine, because she feels you don’t deserve it. 

“If mamma ain’t happy, then ain’t nobody happy” is emotional terrorism. 

You don’t negotiate with terrorists.


----------



## Marduk

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Yes, my wife has many good attributes: smart, attractive, abides by rules, cares for and teaches our kids, keeps the house nice, cooks, engages in sex a couple times per week, to name a few.




Teaches your kids what?

That leading her husband around on a leash is ok?


----------



## Girl_power

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Yes, my wife and I have both shared in the past that we are unhappy in our marriage, and we have even admitted at one point that we would have married other people if we could, knowing what we know now. However, the fact that we have three children is a powerful force to keep trying to patch things up in an effort for them to turn out well. I feel that we both try hard to make our marriage work. For example, yesterday went well because I told her that I love her and how wonderful she is, giving her a massage. At those times, I enjoy being married to her because I feel good too when she feels good. Does this make me codependent?




No it doesn’t make you codependent. When your around unhappy people it makes you unhappy, when your around happy people it makes you happy... that’s the way it is sometimes. 

It seems like just by showing her a little bit of extra love things got a little better for both of you. I think being lovie to each other is so important.


----------



## Tron

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I think you nailed it - conditional love. I feel loved by her if I act and think in ways that please her and despised/rejected by her if I fail to meet her expectations. MarriedTex, did you ever get your wife to love you unconditionally? What did it take to do so? Did you ever find happiness in marriage? How do you cope?


If you are expecting "unconditional love" from your wife, you need to reassess. 

There is no such thing as unconditional love, except maybe with God or your children. 

Because if that is what you feel you have for your W, then you are just asking to get steamrolled in your relationship. Setting reasonable boundaries in a relationship is healthy.


----------



## Cynthia

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Oh my gosh - you are saying things that I have been experiencing but unable to see or articulate. I too feel that I have been compromising much more than her. I absolutely ask myself all the time, "well, what would my wife want in this situation." Then I decide based on whatever she wants. You are right - I am just trying to keep her happy so I don't face any negativity from her. I haven't thought of my own wants in... I can't even think of one. I bought an xbox last year, so maybe that was it. And now she plays it, and I don't! LOL


The question should not be, "What does my wife want?" or "What would make my wife happy?" The question should be, "What is the best course of action?" or "What is best for the family?" When you don't have your own autonomy, it leads to all sorts of problems. That actually may be part of the problem you are having in your marriage. Your wife wants you to lead, but rather than leading you are trying to constantly guess what she "really" wants. That is no way to live.

Some marriages work fine when one spouse leads. Your wife may like things that way. But I think most marriages work best when husband and wife are in unity and work together on their path, as they are joined and should both have input. I also don't believe in the idea that a woman can give input and should be considered, but "the man is the head of the home." A husband and wife are one unit and should operate together in each other's best interests through loving and respectful attitudes and behaviors.

When you don't do what you believe is best, but are always trying to figure out what's going to make someone else happy, it makes you look weak. I'm not saying that we shouldn't seek to please our spouse, but that should not be our main focus. That can actually turn one's spouse into a god. We are each responsible for our own input, but your approach lacks integrity. She can't count on you if you don't have an opinion. Both of you should be strong and supportive of each other.



DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Yes, my wife and I have both shared in the past that we are unhappy in our marriage, and we have even admitted at one point that we would have married other people if we could, knowing what we know now. However, the fact that we have three children is a powerful force to keep trying to patch things up in an effort for them to turn out well. I feel that we both try hard to make our marriage work. For example, yesterday went well because I told her that I love her and how wonderful she is, giving her a massage. At those times, I enjoy being married to her because I feel good too when she feels good. Does this make me codependent?


It's not codependent to want others to be happy. It's when we give up who we are to make others happy and when we try to do what they are themselves responsible for that we become codependent. You have to be true to who you are as a person and she should too. Both parts of the couple should be bringing unique gifts and talents and sharing them freely. This will bring joy into the relationship. Each partner has the other's back and behaves lovingly and kindly.

Hallmark Christian attributes are described in the Bible as: Love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control

These things should be present in healthy relationships.

I think what's happening with your wife is that she is trying to help you by pointing out where you need to change, however, the Bible says we are to, 1 Thessalonians 5:11 "Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing."

Rather than encouraging you, she is trying to discourage you from doing what is wrong. She needs to change that to encouraging you in what you are doing that is right. Build and encourage, that should be a mantra around a Christian home. You might want to talk to her about that.

I think this would be a good scripture to teach to your wife and children. If she wants you to be the spiritual leader and you step into that roll, even though you don't see yourself as a Christian, she really cannot complain when you do it. I recommend you start right here with this scripture and work on it with your family. See how you can encourage one another and build on another up. This is a powerful concept.

I know I mentioned this before, but I really think you two would benefit from reading, "The God Shaped Brain," by Timothy R. Jennings. If you read it with your wife, it could have a profound impact on how she views her faith and may help her to be more accepting of your point of view. It couldn't hurt.



Marduk said:


> She doesn’t love you.
> 
> She doesn’t want it to get better.
> 
> Your happiness is at best irrelevant to her, and at worst something to undermine, because she feels you don’t deserve it.
> 
> “If mamma ain’t happy, then ain’t nobody happy” is emotional terrorism.
> 
> You don’t negotiate with terrorists.


Good grief. I seriously doubt this is true. I think she is desperately trying to get him to return to what she believes is truth and is worried for him. 

You have power in your marriage and in your home. Power to make things better rather than allowing this negative attitude and atmosphere to permeate. Look what happened yesterday when you took a positive approach. Keep doing that.


----------



## MarriedTex

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Oh my gosh - you are saying things that I have been experiencing but unable to see or articulate. I too feel that I have been compromising much more than her. I absolutely ask myself all the time, "well, what would my wife want in this situation." Then I decide based on whatever she wants. You are right - I am just trying to keep her happy so I don't face any negativity from her. I haven't thought of my own wants in... I can't even think of one. I bought an xbox last year, so maybe that was it. And now she plays it, and I don't! LOL


DIGB, first it's heartening to know that somebody else is facing a marriage dilemma similar to my own. I have literally been lurking on this board for seven or eight years and I have never encountered a situation from a poster that so nearly mirrors my own. I'm just about 15 years ahead of you on the timeline.

The frustrating thing with our situation is that it never gets bad enough to warrant pulling the plug on the entire relationship. There have been times I catch myself thinking that I wish my wife would have an affair so that I would have a "justified reason" for exiting completely. That, of course, never happens. If we as husbands put in the work and don't rock the boat, we get a steady diet of sex, decent family time and appear as a normal, well-adjusted couple/family to the outside world. All the while, you die inside from a thousand different cuts that you shoulder and internalize just because "I can take it." 

In my case, I would pack my weekends with an endless list of house / family tasks simply as a defensive measure. If she had a honey-do on the list, I could cheerfully say that I'll get to it once I finished chores A, B and C. If I would let my guard down and sit and watch football for an hour, invariably I would take it in the shorts for being lazy, inconsiderate, whatever. It got to the point where it was just easier to keep myself busy with tasks as a means to hold criticism at bay. 

Essentially, you become the pack mule, just trudging along. People around you - as illustrated by posters here - just don't recognize the burden you are carrying to keep the ship moving forward another day, another week, another year. 

The religion issue here really is a red herring. You're not really doing anything to undercut the teaching of the faith. You're just not on the path to becoming a leader/elder of the church. No sin in that (pun intended.) Yes, she will use this as an emotional cudgel over you to significant effect. But, you know what, if it wasn't the religion, it would be something else. You could be making $1 million a year and she would complain that your spending too much time on work and not paying attention to her. You could be father of the year and around all the time and then you would get grief about not making enough money for the family. There is literally not a thing that you can do that will get you to the place you want.

So, now that I have described your situation, I now suggest what you can do to get her to change her ways: "Absolutely nothing." You will not change how she perceives things or anything of the fundamental precepts of her worldview. Never. Never. Never. The only thing you can change is how you respond to her behaviors. You have to get your mind to the place where you give yourself permission to value the love you show yourself over the conditional love she shows when you are a "good boy." Ultimately, that type of conditional love isn't worth much in the grand scheme of things. You know that it's bought and paid for by your blood, sweat and sacrifice. And it goes away in an instant once you stop playing the martyr. 

But I know it's easy and safe to continue playing the quiet relationship martyr. After years, we get out of practice of knowing what we want for ourselves anyway. Why rent a sailboat and spend the weekend on the lake when you don't even know if you like sailing or not. It's a risk to lobby for something that takes you away from the unfulfilling succor of conditional love for something that may - or may not - wind up satisfying you after all. That uncertainty of not knowing what you want for yourself encourages you to stay in the rut of getting the reliable - yet somehow unsatisfactory - feeling that you get from focusing on fulfilling her needs.

Would be interested in hearing whether / how your wife reciprocates your efforts. Is your payoff the simple peace of stability? Can you point to "nice" things she does for you that she doesn't do for anyone else (not talking sex here) just small day-to-day stuff. In one argument mid-marriage, I made the point that I get her stuff from the fridge when we're watching TV. But the tables never turned the other way. I said it would nice if - every once in awhile - you would bring me a beer from the fridge. (let me tell you, that did not go over well) Do you get the sense that she has little interest in doing small things for you "just because."

Bottom line: you are not going to be able to change her. You have to change how you respond and the weight/importance you place on making her happy. You have to get comfortable with the notion that your needs are equally important to hers and that it really doesn't matter to you if she approves of you or not. Before I suggest how to do this, I'd like to hear about your process of conflict resolution. Does she yell? Do you get the silent treatment? Does one of you tend to apologize before the other to break a stalemate? Understanding how you fight and the impact it has on you will be the first step in suggesting techniques that could apply to your situation.

In the meantime, please mull on the following phrase and its implications on your relationship:"Who died and made her queen anyways? "


----------



## Marduk

CynthiaDe said:


> Good grief. I seriously doubt this is true. I think she is desperately trying to get him to return to what she believes is truth and is worried for him.
> 
> You have power in your marriage and in your home. Power to make things better rather than allowing this negative attitude and atmosphere to permeate. Look what happened yesterday when you took a positive approach. Keep doing that.





> 4) I told her family of my moral failings (lust) to keep her happy per her instruction, that I would never have done, which has tainted the relationship.
> 5) I backed off looking into her credit card spending to help keep her happy.
> 6) I watch only shows on TV or movies that she will not shame me for watching.
> 7) I only spend my limited free time doing things that she approves of - yard care, care car, fix house, watch/play with kids.


Uh, what? That's BS. That's abuse. He has no power here. Positive attitude isn't going to stop it or change anything, unless it leads to a swift termination of this behaviour - which likely requires a swift termination of the marriage.

Let's check that list off, shall we?

Yelling or swearing **
Name calling or insults; mocking **
Threats and intimidation
Ignoring or excluding **
Isolating **
Humiliating **
Denial of the abuse and blaming of the victim **

He's only missing one checkmark, and I suspect that one has either happened or is about to: Threats and intimidation.

FFS she made him “confess” to her dad that he was horny. That’s downright toxic, belittling, manipulation, shaming, and divorce worthy on its own.


----------



## MarriedTex

Marduk said:


> Uh, what? That's BS. That's abuse. He has no power here. Positive attitude isn't going to stop it or change anything, unless it leads to a swift termination of this behaviour - which likely requires a swift termination of the marriage.
> 
> Let's check that list off, shall we?
> 
> Yelling or swearing *✔*
> Name calling or insults; mocking *✔*
> Threats and intimidation
> Ignoring or excluding *✔*
> Isolating *✔*
> Humiliating *✔*
> Denial of the abuse and blaming of the victim *✔*
> 
> He's only missing one checkmark, and I suspect that one has either happened or is about to: Threats and intimidation.


Agree with Marduk. I believe he is a victim of emotional abuse. That's why I asked about conflict resolution in prior post. Answers there will get us to a better understanding of the level of intensity of the abuse. It certainly is abuse. The question is whether it is a "mild" form that can be dealt with or "extensive" abuse that would require more drastic action.


----------



## Cynthia

Yes, her behavior is abusive, but, as I explained, I think what she is doing is trying to help him by explaining what is wrong and trying to get him to fix the problems. That is a common approach that people use. It's dysfunctional, but it doesn't mean she doesn't love him. That is exactly how I used to approach everything. Point out what's wrong and how to fix it. Unfortunately that approach can be critical and demanding, even when that is not the thinking behind the behavior. I really think this is how she sees things and she needs a wake-up call, but that should not be done in an angry or accusatory manner.

@DoesItGetBetter?, just because you have relinquished your personal power doesn't mean you don't have any. It is time that you take back your personal power. That doesn't mean trying to control others, but by having self-control.


----------



## Marduk

CynthiaDe said:


> Yes, her behavior is abusive, but, as I explained, I think what she is doing is trying to help him by explaining what is wrong and trying to get him to fix the problems. That is a common approach that people use. It's dysfunctional, but it doesn't mean she doesn't love him. That is exactly how I used to approach everything. Point out what's wrong and how to fix it. Unfortunately that approach can be critical and demanding, even when that is not the thinking behind the behavior. I really think this is how she sees things and she needs a wake-up call, but that doesn't have to do done in an angry of accusatory manner.
> 
> 
> 
> #DoesItGetBetter?, just because you have relinquished your personal power doesn't mean you don't have any. It is time that you take back your personal power. That doesn't mean trying to control others, but by having self-control.




She shamed his sexuality to her father! She made him do that to himself. 

But I suspect him being a man and her being a religious wife “correcting” her husband may make some think it’s ok. 

It’s not ****ing ok.

You don’t negotiate with your abuser. You wouldn’t ask an abused wife to learn how to stand up for herself while not making her husband angry any more. 

Not cool.


----------



## StarFires

Marduk said:


> She doesn’t love you.


That was just wrong. You went too far, Marduk. Way too far. tisk tisk



Marduk said:


> Teaches your kids what?
> 
> That leading her husband around on a leash is ok?


You have no idea how this guy is. Some of you are making problems where there are none. Some of what you think is "leading her husband around on a leash" is nothing like what you think it is, isn't nearly as bad as you seem to think it is, and the rest is absolutely necessary.

It's like the harder some of you work to tear people's marriages apart, the more you get off on it. So you work even harder and keep posting disparaging and divisive nonsense.


----------



## Marduk

StarFires said:


> That was just wrong. You went too far, Marduk. Way too far. tisk tisk
> 
> 
> 
> You have no idea how this guy is. Some of you are making problems where there are none. Some of what you think is "leading her husband around on a leash" is nothing like what you think it is, isn't nearly as bad as you seem to think it is, and the rest is absolutely necessary.
> 
> It's like the harder some of you work to tear people's marriages apart, the more you get off on it. So you work even harder and keep posting disparaging and divisive nonsense.




Hey I was the guy trying to find a middle ground. And then he shared more. Heavy stuff. 

But I guess abuse isn’t so bad to many people here. I guess he should try to be a nice guy, go back to church and beg her forgiveness because this kind of abuse is ok to you. Abuse doesn’t get better when you stop pissing the abuser off. It escalates. 

I’m out. This is disgusting.


----------



## Cynthia

Marduk said:


> Hey I was the guy trying to find a middle ground. And then he shared more. Heavy stuff.
> 
> But I guess abuse isn’t so bad to many people here. I guess he should try to be a nice guy, go back to church and beg her forgiveness because this kind of abuse is ok to you. Abuse doesn’t get better when you stop pissing the abuser off. It escalates.
> 
> I’m out. This is disgusting.


No one said that. You are literally making things up.


----------



## StarFires

CynthiaDe said:


> The question should not be, "What does my wife want?" or "What would make my wife happy?" The question should be, "What is the best course of action?" or "What is best for the family?" When you don't have your own autonomy, it leads to all sorts of problems.


His own autonomy is what led to all sorts of problems. 

I'm so very sure the rest of your post made just as much sense as what I quoted because you ALWAYS make so much sense, but this is for other couples, not this couple, not this member. I wish you knew what adult ADD is like because if you did, you wouldn't have posted this. I couldn't possibly have any idea if his is mild or severe or somewhere in between, but there are levels/degrees of the characteristics that would require this man to have as little autonomy as possible. For example, he said something about her complaining about the pizza he bought. 

Example #1
Say the family ordinarily orders a particular pizza with specific toppings from one parlor and he bought the opposite from a different parlor.

Example #2
Say they don't like anchovies or onions but he ordered anchovies and onions. 

Example #3
Say where they normally buy from adds a fair amount of cheese but where he went barely puts cheese on it. 

I can't guess at what exactly went awry with the pizza purchase, but she said he got the wrong pizza because she knows he didn't notice the family's preferences. So of course she complained because they don't like that pizza, and the kids are only going to eat half of each slice, throwing the rest away. But he would naturally post it here as something else she derided him about. 

The problem is he didn't notice. He forgot where they normally go. He wasn't able to make a correlation between needing to stop for pizza and what pizza to get. He simply got pizza as if there is no relationship between the two. One indication about his ADD is he doesn't make associations. 

If you only wear one Chanel #5 perfume and very often over the past 5 years, you asked your husband to stop for some "Chanel #5" for you and then one day, you ask him simply "Pick me up some perfume while you're there in the mall, please" and then he brings something other than Chanel #5. How would you feel about that? What would you think if over the years you learned he couldn't be trusted to make that kind of association? You would conclude it's best not to trust him to be autonomous and would make sure you were very specific every time in the future. That's what his wife has learned on practically every level in every aspect of their marriage. She has to assert control to maintain order. She's gotten frustrated at times (more like very often) because to her, it just doesn't make sense to have to be so careful and specific in what she says every single time. It's hard for her because she doesn't understand his condition, and we don't know if he ever told her, for that matter. But it would seem like she's controlling or abusive. It's not really likely that things are done and said quite the way he expressed them here, such as in the case of her pizza complaint. It seems he enumerated and compiled all her complaints and has made them seem unfortunate and unnecessary and just her griping because that's the way he sees them - nothing but complaints and gripes. I know it's hard for him too and that's why he needs to find a medication that he can tolerate. Yet people here are telling him to ignore her and be autonomous and she doesn't respect him and she doesn't love him and she's being abusive.

I spent about an hour with my 30 year old nephew helping me do yard work 9 or 10 years ago. I wanted to rip my hair out (or his) after 20 minutes, but then I remembered his diagnosis from when he was a little boy. I kind of had a little bit of notion that it was something people grow out of but he showed me I that's not the way it goes. So I adjusted and figured out another way to communicate my instructions and some cases I had to oversee him to completion. Try to imagine his wife's daily life. I also have a friend who calls me ever so often crying because of her husband's condition. She's very familiar but it's still frustrating and sometimes very hurtful because he is unable to meet her needs (not referring to sexual needs) and she doesn't want to have to be in control all the time (the average woman doesn't), so she doesn't expect him to, but it's still hard. And she's a nurse.


----------



## Cynthia

I have years of experience with ADHD. 

I think if he wants to buy a certain kind of pizza, he should buy it. He should also take into account what other people want. By autonomy, I don't mean off on his own. I mean him having his own mind. Having ADHD doesn't mean a person is unaware of what other people like or want. If she doesn't like what he purchased, she should tell him without making personal attacks. If she makes a personal attack, he should tell her not to speak to him like that.

She seems to be lacking in grace. Which makes me wonder what her religion is and why she thinks that way. She should be gracious and kind, not having a fit because she doesn't like the pizza. So what if the kids don't like it. They aren't paying for it. What a bunch of picky people!


----------



## StarFires

CynthiaDe said:


> I have years of experience with ADHD.
> 
> I think if he wants to buy a certain kind of pizza, he should buy it. He should also take into account what other people want. By autonomy, I don't mean off on his own. I mean him having his own mind. Having ADHD doesn't mean a person is unaware of what other people like or want. If she doesn't like what he purchased, she should tell him without making personal attacks. If she makes a personal attack, he should tell her not to speak to him like that.
> 
> She seems to be lacking in grace. Which makes me wonder what her religion is and why she thinks that way. She should be gracious and kind, not having a fit because she doesn't like the pizza. So what if the kids don't like it. They aren't paying for it. What a bunch of picky people!


That sounds nothing like years of experience with ADD because, depending on the level of severity of course, they can't make associations. That translates to being unaware of what other people want or like. What could the difference possibly be when the results are the same? And he said nothing about her having a fit. You sound like Marduk with that.

You didn't respond to my scenario. Would it not be frustrating for your husband to bring a perfume other than what you normally ask for? One that you really don't like? And after him doing that type of thing many times, would you not finally get the clue that you can't trust him to be autonomous?

I agree she lacks grace, but what does that have to do with religion. The most devout are seldom meek and mild. But I doubt the average parent would say "if the kids don't like it. They aren't paying for it" at many mealtimes. People don't capriciously allow their children to throw dinner in the trash just because they didn't pay for it. That made no sense either.

But whatever.


----------



## Cynthia

StarFires said:


> That sounds nothing like years of experience with ADD because, depending on the level of severity of course, they can't make associations. That translates to being unaware of what other people want or like. What could the difference possibly be when the results are the same? And he said nothing about her having a fit. You sound like Marduk with that.


I assume you're not a mental health professional. This is not true of ADD or ADHD. Some people may have that problem, but not all people with ADD or ADHD. Whether or not it sounds like I have years of experience with this issue or not, I do. I'm not going to explain myself further.

lol Are you trying to insult me by saying I sound like Marduk?


----------



## StarFires

CynthiaDe said:


> I assume you're not a mental health professional. This is not true of ADD or ADHD. Some people may have that problem, but not all people with ADD or ADHD. Whether or not it sounds like I have years of experience with this issue or not, I do. I'm not going to explain myself further.
> 
> lol Are you trying to insult me by saying I sound like Marduk?


Yes, I stated depending on the severity, so there's no point in disputing what I said just to repeat what I said? 

Marduk stated something rather unnecessary, if not nonsensical. You took exception as well did I. Were you trying to insult him? I wasn't trying to insult him by disagreeing with what he said, so what could there be insulting to you to make a comparison? If you were trying to insult him, then I understand your question. But that doesn't make it apply to me.


----------



## Cynthia

Nothing against Marduk. I just thought it was funny. I'm not insulted.


----------



## Casual Observer

StarFires said:


> It's like the harder some of you work to tear people's marriages apart, the more you get off on it. So you work even harder and keep posting disparaging and divisive nonsense.


100% in agreement on this.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

MarriedTex said:


> DIGB, first it's heartening to know that somebody else is facing a marriage dilemma similar to my own. I have literally been lurking on this board for seven or eight years and I have never encountered a situation from a poster that so nearly mirrors my own. I'm just about 15 years ahead of you on the timeline.
> 
> The frustrating thing with our situation is that it never gets bad enough to warrant pulling the plug on the entire relationship. There have been times I catch myself thinking that I wish my wife would have an affair so that I would have a "justified reason" for exiting completely. That, of course, never happens. If we as husbands put in the work and don't rock the boat, we get a steady diet of sex, decent family time and appear as a normal, well-adjusted couple/family to the outside world. All the while, you die inside from a thousand different cuts that you shoulder and internalize just because "I can take it."
> 
> In my case, I would pack my weekends with an endless list of house / family tasks simply as a defensive measure. If she had a honey-do on the list, I could cheerfully say that I'll get to it once I finished chores A, B and C. If I would let my guard down and sit and watch football for an hour, invariably I would take it in the shorts for being lazy, inconsiderate, whatever. It got to the point where it was just easier to keep myself busy with tasks as a means to hold criticism at bay.
> 
> Essentially, you become the pack mule, just trudging along. People around you - as illustrated by posters here - just don't recognize the burden you are carrying to keep the ship moving forward another day, another week, another year.
> 
> The religion issue here really is a red herring. You're not really doing anything to undercut the teaching of the faith. You're just not on the path to becoming a leader/elder of the church. No sin in that (pun intended.) Yes, she will use this as an emotional cudgel over you to significant effect. But, you know what, if it wasn't the religion, it would be something else. You could be making $1 million a year and she would complain that your spending too much time on work and not paying attention to her. You could be father of the year and around all the time and then you would get grief about not making enough money for the family. There is literally not a thing that you can do that will get you to the place you want.
> 
> So, now that I have described your situation, I now suggest what you can do to get her to change her ways: "Absolutely nothing." You will not change how she perceives things or anything of the fundamental precepts of her worldview. Never. Never. Never. The only thing you can change is how you respond to her behaviors. You have to get your mind to the place where you give yourself permission to value the love you show yourself over the conditional love she shows when you are a "good boy." Ultimately, that type of conditional love isn't worth much in the grand scheme of things. You know that it's bought and paid for by your blood, sweat and sacrifice. And it goes away in an instant once you stop playing the martyr.
> 
> But I know it's easy and safe to continue playing the quiet relationship martyr. After years, we get out of practice of knowing what we want for ourselves anyway. Why rent a sailboat and spend the weekend on the lake when you don't even know if you like sailing or not. It's a risk to lobby for something that takes you away from the unfulfilling succor of conditional love for something that may - or may not - wind up satisfying you after all. That uncertainty of not knowing what you want for yourself encourages you to stay in the rut of getting the reliable - yet somehow unsatisfactory - feeling that you get from focusing on fulfilling her needs.
> 
> Would be interested in hearing whether / how your wife reciprocates your efforts. Is your payoff the simple peace of stability? Can you point to "nice" things she does for you that she doesn't do for anyone else (not talking sex here) just small day-to-day stuff. In one argument mid-marriage, I made the point that I get her stuff from the fridge when we're watching TV. But the tables never turned the other way. I said it would nice if - every once in awhile - you would bring me a beer from the fridge. (let me tell you, that did not go over well) Do you get the sense that she has little interest in doing small things for you "just because."
> 
> Bottom line: you are not going to be able to change her. You have to change how you respond and the weight/importance you place on making her happy. You have to get comfortable with the notion that your needs are equally important to hers and that it really doesn't matter to you if she approves of you or not. Before I suggest how to do this, I'd like to hear about your process of conflict resolution. Does she yell? Do you get the silent treatment? Does one of you tend to apologize before the other to break a stalemate? Understanding how you fight and the impact it has on you will be the first step in suggesting techniques that could apply to your situation.
> 
> In the meantime, please mull on the following phrase and its implications on your relationship:"Who died and made her queen anyways? "


I'm like you - our marriage is not so bad that we can end them, like if there was an affair. My wife has not thrown anything in a while, slammed doors, or screamed at me in weeks/months, so surely I can handle it when it occasionally happens. Yes, when she is mad at me, she will give me the silent treatment, and I reciprocate. We normally try to reconcile quickly, because it is poisonous, but sometimes we don't talk to each other for days. Sometimes she will apologize for saying harsh things to me. Sometimes I will apologize for ordering the wrong pizza toppings. Sometimes, we will just agree to move forward like things are fine. But inwardly, we know things are not fine. Things are headed for another meltdown. 

I'm like you - when I am not at my office working, I am with the kids, shopping, working on cars, caring for yard, paying bills, cleaning house, cooking food, working out, hanging with family, all of which are "wife approved" activities. I think I've changed everything about my life to keep her from criticizing me, for I am sensitive to it. 

Well, when I gave her a massage the other day, she gave me one in return. She pours me a cup of coffee sometimes on the weekends, which is nice. Other than that, I really can't think of kind things that she has done over and above her usual tasks with kids and the house. 

I'm sad to hear that your wife never changed her criticism of anything that you wanted to do just for yourself - like have a hobby for instance. I'm afraid I might be in the same boat. After I told someone about my situation, he told me how I shouldn't allow my wife's feelings control my feelings. For example, I ordered too many toppings one time, and my wife got mad because she had to pick off the mushrooms. She might have given me silent treatment for hours after that - I don't remember perfectly, but it was big problem apparently. My friend said what you are saying - let her get mad because I can't control that, but try not take get mad myself, let it drag me down into depression.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

Marduk said:


> Uh, what? That's BS. That's abuse. He has no power here. Positive attitude isn't going to stop it or change anything, unless it leads to a swift termination of this behaviour - which likely requires a swift termination of the marriage.
> 
> Let's check that list off, shall we?
> 
> Yelling or swearing **
> Name calling or insults; mocking **
> Threats and intimidation
> Ignoring or excluding **
> Isolating **
> Humiliating **
> Denial of the abuse and blaming of the victim **
> 
> He's only missing one checkmark, and I suspect that one has either happened or is about to: Threats and intimidation.
> 
> FFS she made him “confess” to her dad that he was horny. That’s downright toxic, belittling, manipulation, shaming, and divorce worthy on its own.


Yes, my wife has showed many of these traits (not swearing though). She threatened to leave me when she found out about porn years ago, so we might as well check that one off too.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

CynthiaDe said:


> Yes, her behavior is abusive, but, as I explained, I think what she is doing is trying to help him by explaining what is wrong and trying to get him to fix the problems. That is a common approach that people use. It's dysfunctional, but it doesn't mean she doesn't love him. That is exactly how I used to approach everything. Point out what's wrong and how to fix it. Unfortunately that approach can be critical and demanding, even when that is not the thinking behind the behavior. I really think this is how she sees things and she needs a wake-up call, but that should not be done in an angry or accusatory manner.
> 
> @DoesItGetBetter?, just because you have relinquished your personal power doesn't mean you don't have any. It is time that you take back your personal power. That doesn't mean trying to control others, but by having self-control.


I agree that she loves me and is trying to point out my problems to fix me. I told her the other month that her getting mad for no good reason (maybe I wore the wrong clothing to church, maybe I wasn't moving quickly enough through the house, or maybe there was nothing that I did) was not helping anything between us and actually making the relationship worse. This seemed to hit her, and she mentioned later that it was actually correct. Can you please elaborate more about personal power, what it is, and what I can do to take it back?


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

StarFires said:


> His own autonomy is what led to all sorts of problems.
> 
> I'm so very sure the rest of your post made just as much sense as what I quoted because you ALWAYS make so much sense, but this is for other couples, not this couple, not this member. I wish you knew what adult ADD is like because if you did, you wouldn't have posted this. I couldn't possibly have any idea if his is mild or severe or somewhere in between, but there are levels/degrees of the characteristics that would require this man to have as little autonomy as possible. For example, he said something about her complaining about the pizza he bought.
> 
> Example #1
> Say the family ordinarily orders a particular pizza with specific toppings from one parlor and he bought the opposite from a different parlor.
> 
> Example #2
> Say they don't like anchovies or onions but he ordered anchovies and onions.
> 
> Example #3
> Say where they normally buy from adds a fair amount of cheese but where he went barely puts cheese on it.
> 
> I can't guess at what exactly went awry with the pizza purchase, but she said he got the wrong pizza because she knows he didn't notice the family's preferences. So of course she complained because they don't like that pizza, and the kids are only going to eat half of each slice, throwing the rest away. But he would naturally post it here as something else she derided him about.
> 
> The problem is he didn't notice. He forgot where they normally go. He wasn't able to make a correlation between needing to stop for pizza and what pizza to get. He simply got pizza as if there is no relationship between the two. One indication about his ADD is he doesn't make associations.
> 
> If you only wear one Chanel #5 perfume and very often over the past 5 years, you asked your husband to stop for some "Chanel #5" for you and then one day, you ask him simply "Pick me up some perfume while you're there in the mall, please" and then he brings something other than Chanel #5. How would you feel about that? What would you think if over the years you learned he couldn't be trusted to make that kind of association? You would conclude it's best not to trust him to be autonomous and would make sure you were very specific every time in the future. That's what his wife has learned on practically every level in every aspect of their marriage. She has to assert control to maintain order. She's gotten frustrated at times (more like very often) because to her, it just doesn't make sense to have to be so careful and specific in what she says every single time. It's hard for her because she doesn't understand his condition, and we don't know if he ever told her, for that matter. But it would seem like she's controlling or abusive. It's not really likely that things are done and said quite the way he expressed them here, such as in the case of her pizza complaint. It seems he enumerated and compiled all her complaints and has made them seem unfortunate and unnecessary and just her griping because that's the way he sees them - nothing but complaints and gripes. I know it's hard for him too and that's why he needs to find a medication that he can tolerate. Yet people here are telling him to ignore her and be autonomous and she doesn't respect him and she doesn't love him and she's being abusive.
> 
> I spent about an hour with my 30 year old nephew helping me do yard work 9 or 10 years ago. I wanted to rip my hair out (or his) after 20 minutes, but then I remembered his diagnosis from when he was a little boy. I kind of had a little bit of notion that it was something people grow out of but he showed me I that's not the way it goes. So I adjusted and figured out another way to communicate my instructions and some cases I had to oversee him to completion. Try to imagine his wife's daily life. I also have a friend who calls me ever so often crying because of her husband's condition. She's very familiar but it's still frustrating and sometimes very hurtful because he is unable to meet her needs (not referring to sexual needs) and she doesn't want to have to be in control all the time (the average woman doesn't), so she doesn't expect him to, but it's still hard. And she's a nurse.


I shared more about the pizza incident earlier today, but basically I bought mushrooms when she didn't want to have to pick them off. I think she got mad and didn't talk to me for hours, maybe a day or so - I don't remember exactly. I'm wondering if this is normal. Are other spouses going through this? It seems like my wife is making mountains out of molehills. Having said that, my changing theology really is a mountain, and part of me wishes I could just go back to the good religious guy to keep the peace.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

CynthiaDe said:


> I have years of experience with ADHD.
> 
> I think if he wants to buy a certain kind of pizza, he should buy it. He should also take into account what other people want. By autonomy, I don't mean off on his own. I mean him having his own mind. Having ADHD doesn't mean a person is unaware of what other people like or want. If she doesn't like what he purchased, she should tell him without making personal attacks. If she makes a personal attack, he should tell her not to speak to him like that.
> 
> She seems to be lacking in grace. Which makes me wonder what her religion is and why she thinks that way. She should be gracious and kind, not having a fit because she doesn't like the pizza. So what if the kids don't like it. They aren't paying for it. What a bunch of picky people!


My wife's religion is the Baptist form of Christianity. Yes, I try to now buy a pepperoni pizza in the order to please the family.


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## 3Xnocharm

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I shared more about the pizza incident earlier today, but basically I bought mushrooms when she didn't want to have to pick them off. I think she got mad and didn't talk to me for hours, maybe a day or so - I don't remember exactly. I'm wondering if this is normal. Are other spouses going through this? It seems like my wife is making mountains out of molehills. Having said that, my changing theology really is a mountain, and part of me wishes I could just go back to the good religious guy to keep the peace.


This reaction was completely childish. 

It confounds me that she claims to expect you to "lead" the family, yet is so controlling that she goes over the top over stupid things like pizza toppings, and expects everything in the house (and relationship) to be done HER way.


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## In Absentia

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I want her to love me, to keep being my wife, to somehow be happy if at all in my power, for when she is happy then I am happy. Something sounds wrong with this picture when I spell it out like this...


I did that too... guess what? She lost her respect for me at the end...


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## DoesItGetBetter?

In Absentia said:


> I did that too... guess what? She lost her respect for me at the end...


In Absentia, like me, you worked hard to please your wife, to try to show love to her and keep the peace, but she did not respect you for it. What did her lack of respect towards you look like, and how did your relationship end up? Did anything help improve your situation? I'm trying to see how similar we are and where we might end up down the road.


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## In Absentia

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> In Absentia, like me, you worked hard to please your wife, to try to show love to her and keep the peace, but she did not respect you for it. What did her lack of respect towards you look like, and how did your relationship end up? Did anything help improve your situation? I'm trying to see how similar we are and where we might end up down the road.


well, it's a long story. I was part of the "it's never enough" club... I could never do anything right. If I was doing something, it was because I wanted sex. If I wasn't doing it - maybe relaxing for 1 hour in front of the TV, watching the Grand Prix - we couldn't go out because i was always watching the Grand Prix. Football? Too noisy. Taking the kids out so she could rest? Got back too early. If I replied or tried to stand up for myself, I would get the silent treatment. She never did anything for me. I remember her cooking for me once in 33 years. Never made me a coffee. Never really hugged me or said she loved me. Always walking on eggshells not to upset her. And if I complained, it was me me me... what about her? I was eating too much, I was drinking too much, I was driving too fast, my family was sh!t, she hated my father, she hated my brother... I bought her a car, she dented it several times, but I could not say anything... 

Nothing helped improve the situation... we did marriage counselling, she hated the counsellor... at the end, we drifted apart and now, empty nested, we are finally separating... not after she told me that the last 10 years have been a lie... sorry, not a happy ending here...


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## Washashore

Baptist Minister here. I was raised fundamentalist, with 7 literal days and the scriptures “inerrant in the original manuscripts”. Very few Christians are literalists. None actually. We understand metaphor and nuance and that the psalms are to be read and understood differently than the epistles. 

What fundamentalists disregard is context. Everything that Paul wrote ( whose words encompass 99% of fundamentalist rules) is a contextual application of Jesus words. Paul was teaching us how to apply Jesus words to our lives. Instead we do a cut and paste with Paul’s solutions and wonder why they make a mess in our lives and context. 

Jesus promised us his Spirit, which would lead us into all truth, not the Scriptures as that final arbiter of truth. The Spirit interprets the Word. Interesting that your wife has disregarded that fundamental theological point. 

Fundamentalists focus on do’s and fonts and forget that Jesus came that to remove our burdens, not to add to them. But you know this. You are still firmly in the Christian faith, but a faith of nuance, and joy, and possibility. A theology of the Spirit. Don’t live under a spirit of condemnation. You’ve done nothing wrong.

You’ve looked at porn. You and every other fundamentalist guy, and almost every other guy, ever. If it bothers you, confess it to God, not your wife. Intimacy is a two way street. She has made the systemic and sweeping decision to judge you and to diminish your valid beliefs, and to think less of you, and expects this judgment with encourage transparency? Her theological arrogance is that of every fundamentalist. 

What if she is wrong and all that she has been taught is nothing but a security blanket with millions of theological holes? That is what it is. You have not lost your faith, you are simply growing up into Gods future for you. Welcome to your new future.

Come on in. The water is fine!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DoesItGetBetter?

In Absentia said:


> well, it's a long story. I was part of the "it's never enough" club... I could never do anything right. If I was doing something, it was because I wanted sex. If I wasn't doing it - maybe relaxing for 1 hour in front of the TV, watching the Grand Prix - we couldn't go out because i was always watching the Grand Prix. Football? Too noisy. Taking the kids out so she could rest? Got back too early. If I replied or tried to stand up for myself, I would get the silent treatment. She never did anything for me. I remember her cooking for me once in 33 years. Never made me a coffee. Never really hugged me or said she loved me. Always walking on eggshells not to upset her. And if I complained, it was me me me... what about her? I was eating too much, I was drinking too much, I was driving too fast, my family was sh!t, she hated my father, she hated my brother... I bought her a car, she dented it several times, but I could not say anything...
> 
> Nothing helped improve the situation... we did marriage counselling, she hated the counsellor... at the end, we drifted apart and now, empty nested, we are finally separating... not after she told me that the last 10 years have been a lie... sorry, not a happy ending here...


Oh, I am sorry to hear that. Some differences appear be that my wife cooks and contributes to the family more than yours did. We have some similarities, though, like silent treatment, criticality, us walking on eggshells.


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## In Absentia

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Oh, I am sorry to hear that. Some differences appear be that my wife cooks and contributes to the family more than yours did. We have some similarities, though, like silent treatment, criticality, us walking on eggshells.


She worked part time, and she did stuff in the house and with the kids... we shared everything, but I was in charge of the cooking... I don't know. I guess she was unhappy in general, or maybe I disappointed her somehow. Maybe I didn't turn up the way she expected me to be once married and had children... I will never know!


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## DoesItGetBetter?

Washashore said:


> Baptist Minister here. I was raised fundamentalist, with 7 literal days and the scriptures “inerrant in the original manuscripts”. Very few Christians are literalists. None actually. We understand metaphor and nuance and that the psalms are to be read and understood differently than the epistles.
> 
> What fundamentalists disregard is context. Everything that Paul wrote ( whose words encompass 99% of fundamentalist rules) is a contextual application of Jesus words. Paul was teaching us how to apply Jesus words to our lives. Instead we do a cut and paste with Paul’s solutions and wonder why they make a mess in our lives and context.
> 
> Jesus promised us his Spirit, which would lead us into all truth, not the Scriptures as that final arbiter of truth. The Spirit interprets the Word. Interesting that your wife has disregarded that fundamental theological point.
> 
> Fundamentalists focus on do’s and fonts and forget that Jesus came that to remove our burdens, not to add to them. But you know this. You are still firmly in the Christian faith, but a faith of nuance, and joy, and possibility. A theology of the Spirit. Don’t live under a spirit of condemnation. You’ve done nothing wrong.
> 
> You’ve looked at porn. You and every other fundamentalist guy, and almost every other guy, ever. If it bothers you, confess it to God, not your wife. Intimacy is a two way street. She has made the systemic and sweeping decision to judge you and to diminish your valid beliefs, and to think less of you, and expects this judgment with encourage transparency? Her theological arrogance is that of every fundamentalist.
> 
> What if she is wrong and all that she has been taught is nothing but a security blanket with millions of theological holes? That is what it is. You have not lost your faith, you are simply growing up into Gods future for you. Welcome to your new future.
> 
> Come on in. The water is fine!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wow - thank you for your insights. It is funny that you mention it. My wife comes from a very strict, Fundamentalist background. We are talking women in dresses to the floor (sometimes a few head-coverings), men in suits only, men only leaders, appearance of perfection at all times, keep away from the damned, don't send your kids to public school, go to church, Sunday school, Sunday night service, Wednesday night service, church activities in addition to this, heavy on showing good works, etc...


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## MarriedTex

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> My wife has not thrown anything in a while, slammed doors, or screamed at me in weeks/months, so surely I can handle it when it occasionally happens. Yes, when she is mad at me, she will give me the silent treatment, and I reciprocate. We normally try to reconcile quickly, because it is poisonous, but sometimes we don't talk to each other for days. Sometimes she will apologize for saying harsh things to me. Sometimes I will apologize for ordering the wrong pizza toppings. Sometimes, we will just agree to move forward like things are fine. But inwardly, we know things are not fine. Things are headed for another meltdown.
> 
> I'm like you - when I am not at my office working, I am with the kids, shopping, working on cars, caring for yard, paying bills, cleaning house, cooking food, working out, hanging with family, all of which are "wife approved" activities. I think I've changed everything about my life to keep her from criticizing me, for I am sensitive to it.
> 
> Well, when I gave her a massage the other day, she gave me one in return. She pours me a cup of coffee sometimes on the weekends, which is nice. Other than that, I really can't think of kind things that she has done over and above her usual tasks with kids and the house.
> 
> I'm sad to hear that your wife never changed her criticism of anything that you wanted to do just for yourself - like have a hobby for instance. I'm afraid I might be in the same boat. After I told someone about my situation, he told me how I shouldn't allow my wife's feelings control my feelings. For example, I ordered too many toppings one time, and my wife got mad because she had to pick off the mushrooms. She might have given me silent treatment for hours after that - I don't remember perfectly, but it was big problem apparently. My friend said what you are saying - let her get mad because I can't control that, but try not take get mad myself, let it drag me down into depression.


Sorry to hear about the dearth of "kindness." From your brief description, it sounds like most of her gestures are "reciprocal" in nature. You do for her, so she does for you. I get that this is the way that it works most of the time. But that doesn't make it right or fair. In my case, it would be nice to have had my wife think about me and provide thoughtful gestures upon her own initiation once in awhile. Typically, the rationale for her lack of kindness were typically tied to selfish motivations.

When our kids were little, for instance, she would have a couple of "lunch playdates" every week with other Moms/kids at some fast-food joint. I work from home. It would have been nice for just one of those 100+ times for her to call and ask me if I wanted her to bring anything back for me from the restaurant. Never happened. As she explains to me when I eventually raised the topic, "You don't need the calories." (Delivered as she's finishing her own milkshake, and possessing a BMI tally higher than mine.) In short, she could go out, but she really did not like the idea of having a fat husband. Her need to control my diet superseded the concept of "I want to do something nice for my husband."

Your friend's advise is wise. But it's easy to deliver and incredibly difficult to follow after years of ingrained behavior patterns. But you need more tools at your disposal to make it happen. An option that I didn't do, but wish I had done, was to engage in marriage counseling that would provide a safe environment for me to get issues on the table with a neutral third party refereeing the discussion. I needed to convey to my wife that her behavior was unacceptable and not within the norms of a realistic relationship. (In my case, my father died a few months before I was born, leaving me no real good model of what a healthy marital relationship looked like on a day-to-day basis. It took me a good decade of experience - and watching other relationships of my peers - for me to finally recognize that they dynamic in my marriage was not healthy and that I needed a change.) Your wife will not like hearing that's she's not acting in an appropriate manner. But hearing it from an outside voice at least offers a better chance of being heard/accepted and acted upon than if you try to make a similar case.

If you are like me, you likely will recoil at the notion of counseling. To suggest counseling is to suggest that there are problems, which undermines the whole premise of the facade of happiness that you try to create when appeasing her every whim out of self-preservation. If you are unwilling to go the counseling route at this point, you can at least try to read (and put into practice) the themes addressed in "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert Glover - a book mentioned by other posters earlier in the thread. 

The basic lesson of NMMNG is that "nice guys" will use their kindness as a tool to manipulate others to get the love/attention we don't believe we can get otherwise. We don't have enough confidence to think that our partners will love us for our own qualities. So, we engage in so-called "covert contracts" where we defer our own needs/wants to satisfy the needs and wants of others. The idea is that if we provide for their needs, they will reciprocate and provide us the kindness/thoughtfulness we desire in return. This is called a "covert contract" in which we make this deal in our own minds about this exchange of kindness without ever telling our partners the terms of the agreement. Eventually, we wind up disappointed when our partners do not fulfill their end of the bargain of these "covert contracts" that they have no knowledge of.

These covert contracts make us especially dependent on monitoring the mood/status of our partner. If the partner is mad/unhappy, then we become sad / unhappy because we recognize that we will not be getting what we want from the relationship because our partner is dissatisfied. Breaking free of this cycle is a process called "detaching the emotional hose" in which you stop basing your happiness on the mood of your wife and gradually become more aware of the specific things/activities that make you the most happy. It's a process that leads you to a more authentic life for yourself, but it does not necessarily guarantee the health of the marriage. As Glover says, becoming more authentic in your own life will either strengthen your marriage or send it to its long overdue grave. I highly recommend that you become more familiar with the concepts of "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and engage in some of the "Breaking Free Exercises" prescribed in the book. (Oh, and one more thing, do not tell your wife about the book or your efforts to change yourself. That would be another element of "approval seeking" that keeps the emotional hose attached and retards your own personal development. If she notices changes in your behavior, just say that that you are working on ways to improve yourself in a way that will make you a better husband, father and friend.)

A last note: it is 100% unacceptable for her to throw things at you or slam doors in your face. As you will learn from NMMNG, you need to set boundaries (with associated consequences) on certain behaviors. When things are calm, you have to bring up the issue that you did not appreciate the times that your wife has thrown X, Y or Z at you and then state a consequence for what will happen if she does it again. For instance, if she throws anything at you again, you are taking the kids and staying at your parent's place until the issue is resolved. Or you can say that next time she throws something, that you're calling the police. Or that you're going to film the episode and embarrass her on Facebook. Whatever the consequence is, you have to be willing to protect your boundary and enforce the consequence when the boundary is violated. 

Until you start re-writing the rules of the relationship - either via the help of a counselor or via a steady diet of hard-work on self-improvement - your reality will never change. If you are unwilling to take either of the steps above, your only other option is to stick it out for as long as possible for your kids before the inevitable divorce takes place. If you're still have steady sex at this point, you can probably keep up the charade for another decade or so. There's enough to work with here to keep things moving along. But, the odds are high that you will become increasingly miserable as the years pass.


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## StarFires

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Wow - thank you for your insights. It is funny that you mention it. My wife comes from a very strict, Fundamentalist background. We are talking women in dresses to the floor (sometimes a few head-coverings), men in suits only, men only leaders, appearance of perfection at all times, keep away from the damned, don't send your kids to public school, go to church, Sunday school, Sunday night service, Wednesday night service, church activities in addition to this, heavy on showing good works, etc...


I think Washashore might have taken some liberties there although I'm sure his post must have been quite liberating for you, and I can understand that. But I don't recall you saying your faith is intact. Is it? Because I got the feeling you were done with religion altogether, notably the Bible. You weren't interested in people's suggestion that you find another church home, and you also stated you simply stopped believing in the Bible. So tell us where you are with regard to religion and/or your faith.

Something I disagree with Washashore about is knocking someone else's religion. Whatever it is and however misguided your wife's religion may seem to us, it is her/their religion and they are as entitled to their beliefs and standards of practice as everyone else. And honestly, it is those religions that are the strictest that I find to be the best in terms of teaching and holding their members accountable. So many religions, it seems to me, have little and usually zero, control of their flock because people run wild doing all manner of sin and wrongdoing with no regard for their religion or their faith until they get into trouble and need to call on God or Jesus to deliver them. So, if there are those that are able to convince their membership to walk in faith, do good deeds, behave themselves, raise their children well, be modest, and not take pleasure in the wrongdoing of others, then I'm all for it. Their ways of enforcing accountability might not be pleasant (and I'm sure that's why she had you confess your moral failings [notably porn] but definitely was NOT to shame your sexuality as Marduk claimed), but it certainly is better than facing the penal system, leaving victims in your wake, and corrupting your soul. 

It might be acceptable for men to rally for other men and give a pass and understanding to each other for watching porn the way Washashore did, but it's still wrongdoing according to any and every faith-based (since people could just as well form a group for porn watching and call it a religion) religion on the planet, and many of them have their various ways of having people confess their sins (and ask for forgiveness). Catholics have confessionals. Jehovah's Witnesses must confess to the elders with full details over several days time and then confess to the whole congregation. That, among other things, is what Christian religions are supposed to do - guide people on the path of righteousness and away from doing wrong. To do that, they hold people accountable as part of their system of deterrents. So if you want to say you still have faith, then that's a different signal than you gave us previously, and you aren't going to find a Christian religion that understands and allows it the way Washashore just did. You can easily find some that won't hold you accountable so you can do whatever you want as most so-called Christians do, but even those churches teach and admonish against it.


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## Cynthia

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Yes, my wife has showed many of these traits (not swearing though). She threatened to leave me when she found out about porn years ago, so we might as well check that one off too.


It is not abusive for your wife to set boundaries with you. If she wants to leave you over your porn use, that is her prerogative and is not abusive. What is abusive is her shaming you. That doesn't mean if you feel shame it's because she caused it. It means that if she using shaming language and is critical of you as a person.

It is also not abusive for a person to talk about what someone has done to hurt them. The manner in which your wife did that isn’t great, but she may have been trying to get you to own it rather than her telling for you. It’s not wrong that you told her family about your lust problem, but it shouldn’t have been done to shame you. It’s called exposure and it can be done appropriately.



DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I agree that she loves me and is trying to point out my problems to fix me. I told her the other month that her getting mad for no good reason (maybe I wore the wrong clothing to church, maybe I wasn't moving quickly enough through the house, or maybe there was nothing that I did) was not helping anything between us and actually making the relationship worse. This seemed to hit her, and she mentioned later that it was actually correct. Can you please elaborate more about personal power, what it is, and what I can do to take it back?


We each have power over our thoughts, feelings, attitudes, choices, responses, behaviors, etc. With that, we are personally responsible for our all of that. Conversely, we are not responsible for those things in other people, except to a certain extent our young children. Even with children, the goal is for them to have self-control rather than being under the control of their parents. Yes, they should be under control, but that control should be balance between what they are capable of and where their parents have to fill in the areas they aren’t. For babies, they have no responsibility, but as children grow, their level of self-control should be growing as well.

In this, you are responsible for having your own needs and desires met. When these needs or desires involved other people, it is with their agreement and participation, not in a manipulative or controlling manner. This is why it is so important that husband and wife have each other’s backs, but are not relying on each other to meet personal responsibilities.

Does that make sense or do you need more information?


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## DoesItGetBetter?

MarriedTex said:


> The basic lesson of NMMNG is that "nice guys" will use their kindness as a tool to manipulate others to get the love/attention we don't believe we can get otherwise. We don't have enough confidence to think that our partners will love us for our own qualities. So, we engage in so-called "covert contracts" where we defer our own needs/wants to satisfy the needs and wants of others. The idea is that if we provide for their needs, they will reciprocate and provide us the kindness/thoughtfulness we desire in return. This is called a "covert contract" in which we make this deal in our own minds about this exchange of kindness without ever telling our partners the terms of the agreement. Eventually, we wind up disappointed when our partners do not fulfill their end of the bargain of these "covert contracts" that they have no knowledge of.


Thank you, MarriedTex. I think I have had a "covert contract" with my wife without ever realizing it or explaining it to her: If I work hard earning money, helping with children, go shopping, go where you want me to go, take care of the house and yard... then she will be pleased and enjoy, accept, and love me. However, after I do those things, she is sometimes mad at me for how I did something or didn't do something. I feel like she breached the "covert contract," but it never existed anyway, only in my mind. I was reading some reviews on NMMNG, and it has quite the following! I will look into it some more. My wife might be mad if she sees it in house, though.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

StarFires said:


> I think Washashore might have taken some liberties there although I'm sure his post must have been quite liberating for you, and I can understand that. But I don't recall you saying your faith is intact. Is it? Because I got the feeling you were done with religion altogether, notably the Bible. You weren't interested in people's suggestion that you find another church home, and you also stated you simply stopped believing in the Bible. So tell us where you are with regard to religion and/or your faith.
> 
> Something I disagree with Washashore about is knocking someone else's religion. Whatever it is and however misguided your wife's religion may seem to us, it is her/their religion and they are as entitled to their beliefs and standards of practice as everyone else. And honestly, it is those religions that are the strictest that I find to be the best in terms of teaching and holding their members accountable. So many religions, it seems to me, have little and usually zero, control of their flock because people run wild doing all manner of sin and wrongdoing with no regard for their religion or their faith until they get into trouble and need to call on God or Jesus to deliver them. So, if there are those that are able to convince their membership to walk in faith, do good deeds, behave themselves, raise their children well, be modest, and not take pleasure in the wrongdoing of others, then I'm all for it. Their ways of enforcing accountability might not be pleasant (and I'm sure that's why she had you confess your moral failings [notably porn] but definitely was NOT to shame your sexuality as Marduk claimed), but it certainly is better than facing the penal system, leaving victims in your wake, and corrupting your soul.
> 
> It might be acceptable for men to rally for other men and give a pass and understanding to each other for watching porn the way Washashore did, but it's still wrongdoing according to any and every faith-based (since people could just as well form a group for porn watching and call it a religion) religion on the planet, and many of them have their various ways of having people confess their sins (and ask for forgiveness). Catholics have confessionals. Jehovah's Witnesses must confess to the elders with full details over several days time and then confess to the whole congregation. That, among other things, is what Christian religions are supposed to do - guide people on the path of righteousness and away from doing wrong. To do that, they hold people accountable as part of their system of deterrents. So if you want to say you still have faith, then that's a different signal than you gave us previously, and you aren't going to find a Christian religion that understands and allows it the way Washashore just did. You can easily find some that won't hold you accountable so you can do whatever you want as most so-called Christians do, but even those churches teach and admonish against it.


I consider myself agnostic right now, so I don't really think there is anyway to know for sure what happens after death. I like a lot about Christianity, though - morality, God's love, etc. If I had to pick a religion it would be that one.


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## MarriedTex

StarFires said:


> Something I disagree with Washashore about is knocking someone else's religion. Whatever it is and however misguided your wife's religion may seem to us, it is her/their religion and they are as entitled to their beliefs and standards of practice as everyone else. And honestly, it is those religions that are the strictest that I find to be the best in terms of teaching and holding their members accountable. So many religions, it seems to me, have little and usually zero, control of their flock because people run wild doing all manner of sin and wrongdoing with no regard for their religion or their faith until they get into trouble and need to call on God or Jesus to deliver them. So, if there are those that are able to convince their membership to walk in faith, do good deeds, behave themselves, raise their children well, be modest, and not take pleasure in the wrongdoing of others, then I'm all for it. Their ways of enforcing accountability might not be pleasant (and I'm sure that's why she had you confess your moral failings [notably porn] but definitely was NOT to shame your sexuality as Marduk claimed), but it certainly is better than facing the penal system, leaving victims in your wake, and corrupting your soul.


StarFires, DIGB is not doing anything to undermine or "knock" wife's religious beliefs. If anything, he's stretching beyond his level of faith to support her view of the world and promote family participation consistent with her beliefs.

Where is the wife's compassion / empathy for her husband's position? Doesn't his worldview deserve some respect in this discussion? As a lapsed Catholic, I recognize the inherent dangers associated with putting your trust in rules developed by a group of men purporting to represent the moral, righteous path of the Lord. In terms of adhering to the Lord's will, I'll put my money on embracing the meaning behind Christ's teachings as opposed to using rules developed by men "enforcing accountability." Smells a lot like some people twisting God's authority to serve their own perverted need for control over others.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

CynthiaDe said:


> Does that make sense or do you need more information?


Yes, I think it makes sense - thanks.


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## Cynthia

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> My wife's religion is the Baptist form of Christianity. Yes, I try to now buy a pepperoni pizza in the order to please the family.


I may have gone a little overboard by accusing your family of being picky. I do think that they should be taken into account, but so should you. Getting what you want and something they want sounds like a good compromise that should be normal.

As long as you are not constantly bowing to the desires of others without being considered. There is a difference between a need and a desire. Finding out what you like is important. I think you said earlier that you don’t even know what you desire. Pizza isn’t a bad place to start. You have to start somewhere if you’re going to learn that your needs and desires matter as well. You are also part of the family and if you aren’t happy, that is not doing the family dynamic any good.

I don’t think that any family member is more important than another. I don’t put people in order. For example, I don’t think the relationship between my husband and I takes precedence over the rest of the family, but if our relationship isn’t healthy, it will negatively impact the rest of the family, so it must be nurtured. When our kids were young, we took time to be alone and to meet our needs as a couple. Sometimes the kids had to wait, just like we sometimes had to wait for our couple time if the kids needed us.



DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Wow - thank you for your insights. It is funny that you mention it. My wife comes from a very strict, Fundamentalist background. We are talking women in dresses to the floor (sometimes a few head-coverings), men in suits only, men only leaders, appearance of perfection at all times, keep away from the damned, don't send your kids to public school, go to church, Sunday school, Sunday night service, Wednesday night service, church activities in addition to this, heavy on showing good works, etc...


Another reason why I think your wife needs to read The God Shaped Brain. Your wife’s behavior is linked to how she views God. I would venture to guess that she sees God as a ruler who is looking for her sin, rather than as a Father and Savior who has resolved her sin. I seriously doubt that your wife actually reads the Bible at all, but if she does, it’s likely in small out of context parts, rather than as a whole document that is meant to be read through and compared to other parts to get a full picture.

If you sit down with her and spend time reading together every evening, it should bring you two closer. There are lots of books you could start with, but she really needs an overhaul of how she views God and I think The God Shaped Brain book would help her to relax and be less demanding and more open and loving. Again, I don’t think you will get anywhere if you ask your wife to read the book without you, but if you buy it and tell her that the two of you need to read this book together, then make a plan for what time and where you will be reading together, it will happen. Don’t try to convince her or argue. Tell her it’s important and this starts now. It doesn’t have to be every day, but at least three nights a week, the two of you should be reading things that will improve your relationship and then acting on the parts that make sense to you both.

I’m not talking about forcing it on her. I’m talking about expecting your wife to be interested in what matters to you and working with you to improve your lives and marriage. Telling her this is what you want and making a plan for it to happen. You aren’t going to make progress if you can’t express your personal desires and needs and have an expectation that your wife cares about that.

You and your wife seem to be living in fear. That is extremely dysfunctional and can lead to all sorts of problems, many of which you are experiencing right now. Unfortunately, it can get worse and even create physical problems. This can create all sorts of issues for your children as well. No wonder you rejected Christianity if that’s what you think it’s about. It’s not.


----------



## MarriedTex

StarFires said:


> I thought I posted this but I guess I didn't.
> 
> @StarFires
> 
> *Moderator warning:-*
> 
> You did post it. But it was deleted by a moderator following reports of an inappropriate post.
> 
> Please don't *ever* repost a post after it has been deleted by a moderator or an administrator.


Not sure what you are referencing, MattMatt. But please delete any posts of mine that may have quoted materials previously deleted by moderator. My apologies.


----------



## MattMatt

MarriedTex said:


> Not sure what you are referencing, MattMatt. But please delete any posts of mine that may have quoted materials previously deleted by moderator. My apologies.


Don't worry. It wasn't your fault.


----------



## SongoftheSouth

Im southern Baptist and I don't believe I could even come close to tolerating your wifes demands. You are a human being and we all have faults. Not saying she is bad but you and her are incompatible. Good luck in any event. Our pastor is from Liberty and we follow Franklin G ministries but many of us have unflattering pasts and we are all imperfect. Do the best you can I guess.


----------



## In Absentia

MarriedTex said:


> It's a process that leads you to a more authentic life for yourself, but it does not necessarily guarantee the health of the marriage. As Glover says, becoming more authentic in your own life will either strengthen your marriage or send it to its long overdue grave.


I did have one of this "covert contracts" in my head. You have described my exact situation. I also did the process, but, unfortunately, it sent the marriage to its grave on the long term... you see, my wife is very smart. She pretended everything was fine, but it wasn't. When the opportunity arose, she broke free...


----------



## farsidejunky

DIGB:

Your wife does not respect you because you acquiesce and because of your fundamental differences in religious belief.

You acquiesce because you have some mild codependency traits.

Now...even if you suddenly found your way back to Christ, I suspect she would still struggle to respect you. This is mostly because you allow her to run roughshod over you.

I would also bet she comes from a home with a domineering father. Not necessarily abusive (but possible), but I would be willing to bet that all decisions are carefully run through him, that he controls the money, etc.

This could be projecting, but I see a ton of parallels between your wife and mine. 

The poster that told you to own your power was speaking truth. While this sounds rather fascinating and elusive to one who does not know how...it really is very simple. It starts with making decisions (big, small, in-between) based on principle, and then enforcing said decisions in a calm manner.

Her making you go to her dad over *cough* a sex drive?

"No. What's for dinner?"

The credit cards?

"No. My family will spend within it's means." (Unless it is something necessary)

The church and your faith?

"We all wrestle with faith in life. This is my personal journey, not yours. Keep your eyes on your own paper."

If she screams or yells?

"I'm not okay with yelling." (In a calm CALM manner)

If she continues?

"Are you done?"

Do you see how that works? The key to owning your power is to calmly and politely tell her to piss up a rope when she wants something that is not good for your family.

That said...you had better make sure you know what your family needs, and be open to what it may be. In other words, don't do this over everything...but rather the things you KNOW are unhealthy.

Also, always...always...ALWAYS apologize when you are wrong...but only apologize once. ONCE. Any more than that is acquiescing to her wanting her pound of flesh. 

Lastly, the key to the frame of owning your own power lies in your emotional steadfastness. When she was upset over the mushrooms, did you stress? Did you let the fear to her reaction alter your routines? I bet you did. It has to stop.

Does this make sense?



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## DoesItGetBetter?

In Absentia said:


> I did have one of this "covert contracts" in my head. You have described my exact situation. I also did the process, but, unfortunately, it sent the marriage to its grave on the long term... you see, my wife is very smart. She pretended everything was fine, but it wasn't. When the opportunity arose, she broke free...


Thank you, In Absentia - if our situations are so similar, I'm a bit worried that they could end similarly. What specifically was the opportunity, another available man? How did she break free - file for divorce?


----------



## In Absentia

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Thank you, In Absentia - if our situations are so similar, I'm a bit worried that they could end similarly. What specifically was the opportunity, another available man? How did she break free - file for divorce?


Empty nest... we finished our job as parents, so I wasn't needed anymore. She took the sexual side off the table without consulting me. I turned down the sexless marriage, so we are now separating. Sometimes, I wish there was another man... :smile2:


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## DoesItGetBetter?

farsidejunky said:


> DIGB:
> 
> Your wife does not respect you because you acquiesce and because of your fundamental differences in religious belief.
> 
> You acquiesce because you have some mild codependency traits.
> 
> Now...even if you suddenly found your way back to Christ, I suspect she would still struggle to respect you. This is mostly because you allow her to run roughshod over you.
> 
> I would also bet she comes from a home with a domineering father. Not necessarily abusive (but possible), but I would be willing to bet that all decisions are carefully run through him, that he controls the money, etc.
> 
> This could be projecting, but I see a ton of parallels between your wife and mine.
> 
> The poster that told you to own your power was speaking truth. While this sounds rather fascinating and elusive to one who does not know how...it really is very simple. It starts with making decisions (big, small, in-between) based on principle, and then enforcing said decisions in a calm manner.
> 
> Her making you go to her dad over *cough* a sex drive?
> 
> "No. What's for dinner?"
> 
> The credit cards?
> 
> "No. My family will spend within it's means." (Unless it is something necessary)
> 
> The church and your faith?
> 
> "We all wrestle with faith in life. This is my personal journey, not yours. Keep your eyes on your own paper."
> 
> If she screams or yells?
> 
> "I'm not okay with yelling." (In a calm CALM manner)
> 
> If she continues?
> 
> "Are you done?"
> 
> Do you see how that works? The key to owning your power is to calmly and politely tell her to piss up a rope when she wants something that is not good for your family.
> 
> That said...you had better make sure you know what your family needs, and be open to what it may be. In other words, don't do this over everything...but rather the things you KNOW are unhealthy.
> 
> Also, always...always...ALWAYS apologize when you are wrong...but only apologize once. ONCE. Any more than that is acquiescing to her wanting her pound of flesh.
> 
> Lastly, the key to the frame of owning your own power lies in your emotional steadfastness. When she was upset over the mushrooms, did you stress? Did you let the fear to her reaction alter your routines? I bet you did. It has to stop.
> 
> Does this make sense?


Wow - good stuff. You are totally correct that my wife comes from a family with a domineering father. He runs that family like navy ship. Basically you don't want to cross him because he will win, and he will discipline you harshly. He jokes about violence frequently. I know he is a huge fan of spanking for kids and possibly more. There is no question that he makes all of the decisions in that household. 

I'm cracking up out loud reading your dialogue. Making firm decisions for the best interest of our family, being matter of fact about it, and leaving out the emotions all makes sense to me. I see room for me to improve here. Recently, I have been leaning towards, "whatever you want, wifey," thinking that it will buy me some happiness from her. 

Yes, when my wife gets irritated/upset, then I do as well. I can't seem to help myself here. We both change dramatically - we stop looking at each, we stop talking to each other, we don't have sex, etc.


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## farsidejunky

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Wow - good stuff. You are totally correct that my wife comes from a family with a domineering father. He runs that family like navy ship. Basically you don't want to cross him because he will win, and he will discipline you harshly. He jokes about violence frequently. I know he is a huge fan of spanking for kids and possibly more. There is no question that he makes all of the decisions in that household.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm cracking up out loud reading your dialogue. Making firm decisions for the best interest of our family, being matter of fact about it, and leaving out the emotions all makes sense to me. I see room for me to improve here. Recently, I have been leaning towards, "whatever you want, wifey," thinking that it will buy me some happiness from her.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, when my wife gets irritated/upset, then I do as well. I can't seem to help myself here. We both change dramatically - we stop looking at each, we stop talking to each other, we don't have sex, etc.


Our wives are similar creatures.

One thing I want you to keep in mind as you make a decision whether or not you want to acquiesce:

If your decision will lead to her liking you but not respecting you, the answer should be unequivocally no. 

Part of why your wife resents you it's because she has grown up with a firm leader. How well do you fit into that mold? 

I'm not suggesting you need to be an *******, although periodically you will need to be. You also don't have to run your family like your father-in-law.

However, daughters often idealize their fathers. She is evaluating you based on how well you match up with him...and she doesn't like what she sees.

I want to make a book suggestion for you. Get the book "Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s" by Wayne Levine. I initially avoided reading this book simply based on the title, because it sounds like something that would fall into the cave man, fire-cook-meat silliness. Turns out the book is actually about understanding your role as a man, going through the process of selecting your non-negotiable unalterable terms (N.U.T.'s), and then living your life by them.

Once you figure out what your fundamentals and principles are, and live your life rigidly by them, you have to be willing to let the outcome be defined by that process. In other words, once you actually decide what type of man you want to be rather than someone who simply acquiesces to his wife, it may turn out that you are in fact not compatible with your wife.

It is like any other system of production. Quality inputs, fef into a sound process, produce quality results. If you fix your process, your results will follow suit.

Lastly, when you do this it will likely get worse before it gets better. It literally took six months of being worse before it got better in my particular situation. 

Growing up the way your wife did, she will be highly resistant to change. She will rail against you, escalate, likely threaten divorce, and any number of other things to try and get you to fall back into where she is currently comfortable...even though she doesn't really like it.

The question is if you're ready to embark on this journey or not.




Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

farsidejunky said:


> Our wives are similar creatures.
> 
> One thing I want you to keep in mind as you make a decision whether or not you want to acquiesce:
> 
> If your decision will lead to her liking you but not respecting you, the answer should be unequivocally no.
> 
> Part of why your wife resents you it's because she has grown up with a firm leader. How well do you fit into that mold?
> 
> I'm not suggesting you need to be an *******, although periodically you will need to be. You also don't have to run your family like your father-in-law.
> 
> However, daughters often idealize their fathers. She is evaluating you based on how well you match up with him...and she doesn't like what she sees.
> 
> I want to make a book suggestion for you. Get the book "Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s" by Wayne Levine. I initially avoided reading this book simply based on the title, because it sounds like something that would fall into the cave man, fire-cook-meat silliness. Turns out the book is actually about understanding your role as a man, going through the process of selecting your non-negotiable unalterable terms (N.U.T.'s), and then living your life by them.
> 
> Once you figure out what your fundamentals and principles are, and live your life rigidly by them, you have to be willing to let the outcome be defined by that process. In other words, once you actually decide what type of man you want to be rather than someone who simply acquiesces to his wife, it may turn out that you are in fact not compatible with your wife.
> 
> It is like any other system of production. Quality inputs, fef into a sound process, produce quality results. If you fix your process, your results will follow suit.
> 
> Lastly, when you do this it will likely get worse before it gets better. It literally took six months of being worse before it got better in my particular situation.
> 
> Growing up the way your wife did, she will be highly resistant to change. She will rail against you, escalate, likely threaten divorce, and any number of other things to try and get you to fall back into where she is currently comfortable...even though she doesn't really like it.
> 
> The question is if you're ready to embark on this journey or not.
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Thanks, farsidejunky - I'm not a firm leader. I always ask what my wife wants, and we usually do what she wants. I think that my wife has conditioned me to this because I strive to avoid her displeasure. She plans every moment of every day. I just wake up every day and basically ask her what it is that I will be doing that day. You are right that this often makes her happy with me, but she does not respect me for this. You are absolutely correct that she compares me to her father, and "she doesn't like what she sees." 

I really don't have any Non-negotiable Unalterable Terms (NUTs). I have not demanded anything really from her. She does great with the kids, she cooks meals, she keeps the house up, we have sex - so things are good. I think one are that I could set NUTs is on her occasional outbursts. Maybe I could say, "I will walk away from you when you raise your voice or say hurtful things towards me." What NUTs did you implement in your life? Did you wife stay with you and abide by them?


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## farsidejunky

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Thanks, farsidejunky - I'm not a firm leader. I always ask what my wife wants, and we usually do what she wants. I think that my wife has conditioned me to this because I strive to avoid her displeasure. She plans every moment of every day. I just wake up every day and basically ask her what it is that I will be doing that day. You are right that this often makes her happy with me, but she does not respect me for this. You are absolutely correct that she compares me to her father, and "she doesn't like what she sees."
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't have any Non-negotiable Unalterable Terms (NUTs). I have not demanded anything really from her. She does great with the kids, she cooks meals, she keeps the house up, we have sex - so things are good. I think one are that I could set NUTs is on her occasional outbursts. Maybe I could say, "I will walk away from you when you raise your voice or say hurtful things towards me." What NUTs did you implement in your life? Did you wife stay with you and abide by them?


Get the book. You're already mixing up what a non-negotiable, unalterable term actually is. Hint, it has nothing to do with demanding something from her, and everything to do with what you are willing to accept.

If one of your NUT's is to be financially sound, then she does not get to spend on credit cards unless you actually have the money socked away to pay for it. if she still insist on doing it, you don't "force" her to give up the credit cards, as she ultimately does not have to do so. Rather, you begin the proceedings for divorce because what she wants is not compatible with what you want.

A less extreme example could be over plans for the weekend. So you decide to take charge of your life again, and you really want to do something on Saturday night. Don't ask her what she wants to do, tell her you are going to do it and invite her to join you. She may have alternate plans. That is totally okay. However, if she gets angry because you're choosing to do what you want to do and not joining her, shrug your shoulders and tell her to have fun. Then go do what you want to do on Saturday night. 

Right now, you are effectively another kid, competing for a nipple. Why would she want to have sex with, or respect, or see as equals...or *cough* a head of household, someone who defers to her in everything. 

Furthermore, if one is unwilling to stand for the little things...there sure as hell is a legitimate question as to whether or not they will stand for the big things.

This causes your wife to be insecure. This insecurity manifests itself into her nitpicking you, treating you like crap, etc.

Keep in mind that this is likely not deliberate. With my wife, it is subconscious. Even when I point it out to her, she doesn't see the correlation. But then again, my wife has always been led. Even when she was "on her own", her father was still pulling the strings.

Let's start with something simple. Do you have plans for this weekend?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

My NUT's:

*I will be in a loving, respectful marriage.

This includes not only how she addresses me, but how I address her as well. It includes regular sexual activity 'with' my partner rather than 'to' my partner, and stopping (no matter what point we may be at to include PIV) if she seems checked out. This means I apologize when I am wrong, and not just simply ignoring it and hoping it will get better should she choose not to do the same.

*I will be financially secure.

My family will spend within its means. if you take the time to peruse my old threads, you will see that we had significant issues with that. Those have been solved due to some financial management practices as well as the sale of a business that we started from scratch in 2013.

*I will always make time for my own growth.

I train in MMA three times per week, and teach kickboxing classes two of those three nights. It is my outlet when I need to get rid of my frustration, whether it's career or family related. It makes me a better person. It makes me a better husband. She often does not like it. I don't really care. She does not get a say in how I choose to grow.

*I will always make time for my son.

The modern man-child is not something I want to see my son grow into. He needs to understand that being assertive is not toxic, no matter what modern society may say. He must be equipped to be a person who can take care of himself. We must have fun together.

Do I always do the right thing? Nope.

I sometimes become too selfish, or sometimes acquiesce too much. Ultimately, comfort creates problems in that you have a tendency to revert to old habits. It is perfectly normal. It just requires an effort to refocus.

Does my wife always respect these? Nope.

When this happens, I begin to ratchet down my level of service to her. She has very high expectations of me, many of which involve assisting her with things that are not anywhere in my purview of responsibility. I do so out of generosity. When she loses respect for my boundaries, I lose my generosity. 

She doesn't like it, but frankly, if she can't respect my boundaries, the last thing I'm concerned about is whether or not she is happy.

But...

She damn sure respects them, because she knows I won't tolerate her crossing them.

This is why I said it's so important that you can't allow her emotional state to dictate your own. Enforcing boundaries (or NUT's) requires taking a stand, and you can't stand for something without somebody being upset about it. This is the same approach you will likely have to take with your wife.

There are two sayings that really resonate with all of my boundaries. One is from Maya Angelou, while the second is from me.

1. Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option.

2. Love yourself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable.



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Cynthia

farsidejunky said:


> Her making you go to her dad over *cough* a sex drive?


 FSJ, You are very good at explaining these concepts. 
It doesn't sound like she has a problem with his sex drive and is happy to participate. The problem is porn. He hasn't complained that his needs aren't being met, only that he has a lust problem.


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## 3Xnocharm

Personally I dont think he has a "lust problem"... he looks at porn like pretty much every other man who breathes air. She just doesnt APPROVE, like everything else.


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## Cynthia

3Xnocharm said:


> Personally I dont think he has a "lust problem"... he looks at porn like pretty much every other man who breathes air. She just doesnt APPROVE, like everything else.


This is a huge problem in our nation. We can agree to disagree, but this couple can't. He doesn't need porn. He has a wife who meets his sexual needs. She's not going to bend on this.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

farsidejunky said:


> Let's start with something simple. Do you have plans for this weekend?


Yes - dinner with parents, child's sports, taking my wife out to eat, church, hanging with extended family for the majority of one day. In between, I will likely be working out, some TV, banking, lawn?, nap?... that's all I can think of right now.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

CynthiaDe said:


> This is a huge problem in our nation. We can agree to disagree, but this couple can't. He doesn't need porn. He has a wife who meets his sexual needs. She's not going to bend on this.


CynthiaDe, you are correct. My wife will not bend on this issue. I really should stop. I have been off for days, and really should just quit altogether.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

farsidejunky said:


> My NUT's:
> 
> *I will be in a loving, respectful marriage.
> 
> This includes not only how she addresses me, but how I address her as well. It includes regular sexual activity 'with' my partner rather than 'to' my partner, and stopping (no matter what point we may be at to include PIV) if she seems checked out. This means I apologize when I am wrong, and not just simply ignoring it and hoping it will get better should she choose not to do the same.
> 
> *I will be financially secure.
> 
> My family will spend within its means. if you take the time to peruse my old threads, you will see that we had significant issues with that. Those have been solved due to some financial management practices as well as the sale of a business that we started from scratch in 2013.
> 
> *I will always make time for my own growth.
> 
> I train in MMA three times per week, and teach kickboxing classes two of those three nights. It is my outlet when I need to get rid of my frustration, whether it's career or family related. It makes me a better person. It makes me a better husband. She often does not like it. I don't really care. She does not get a say in how I choose to grow.
> 
> *I will always make time for my son.
> 
> The modern man-child is not something I want to see my son grow into. He needs to understand that being assertive is not toxic, no matter what modern society may say. He must be equipped to be a person who can take care of himself. We must have fun together.


I like your terms and the idea of implementing them into my life. 

1. Loving Respectful Marriage - My wife and I need to work on this. I will say that the last few days have been great. I have been communicating with her more, touching her more (not always leading to sex), and complimenting her more. She is probably suspicious that something is up. 

2. Financially Secure - I think this is going well. I earn enough and she doesn't spend enough to make this a real problem. I used to be really tight on spending, but I have loosened majorly compared to where I was. She spends 80% of the lines on our credit card bill at various local stores, and I don't really know what half of it is, but the total amount is bearable. 

3. My Own Growth (Hobbies?) - I need to spend more time/effort here. I work out almost every day, so that falls under this category. I watch a half hour of TV by myself during the day, so that falls here too. My wife has locked me out of our laptop at home, so I am limited on internet things. Do you think that is a problem, and should I insist to be given access again? I did buy the laptop and internet service after all... Maybe I should find a hobby. 

4. Time with Kids - I do tons of this, so I'm good here!


----------



## 3Xnocharm

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> .
> 
> 3. My Own Growth (Hobbies?) - I need to spend more time/effort here. I work out almost every day, so that falls* under this category. I watch a half hour of TV by myself during the day, so that falls here too. My wife has locked me out of our laptop at home, so I am limited on internet things. Do you think that is a problem, and should I insist to be given access again? I did buy the laptop and internet service after all...* Maybe I should find a hobby.


What?? Omg. YES this is a problem, this is unreasonably controlling! I cant believe you tolerated this. 

Ridiculous.


----------



## MarriedTex

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I like your terms and the idea of implementing them into my life.
> 
> 
> 
> 3. My Own Growth (Hobbies?) - I need to spend more time/effort here. I work out almost every day, so that falls under this category. I watch a half hour of TV by myself during the day, so that falls here too. My wife has locked me out of our laptop at home, so I am limited on internet things. Do you think that is a problem, and should I insist to be given access again? I did buy the laptop and internet service after all... Maybe I should find a hobby.


This is ridiculous. You're letting her treat you like a child.

I would be down to Best Buy to buy a laptop so fast her head would spin. If you just need Internet access, you could get a low-end refurbished Chromebook for $100. Though I would spend tons more just to make a point.

Boundary: You will not restrict my access to computers under any circumstances.

Consequence: You get yourself a new computer with your own password or you cut the Internet service for everybody in the house.

I guess you don't want to be that "mean guy." I get that. But those type of fears don't stop her from stating and enforcing her own boundaries. You have to begin practicing standing up for yourself in the right time and place. You have a decade of learned behaviors to unlearn. The sooner you start taking small steps to stand up for yourself, the sooner you will make it through the long path that will be needed to instigate change.


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## MarriedTex

3Xnocharm said:


> What?? Omg. YES this is a problem, this is unreasonably controlling! I cant believe you tolerated this.
> 
> Ridiculous.


3X, Great minds think alike I guess. I used the exact same terminology before even seeing your post! 

Just the fact that DIGB has to ask whether this is a problem speaks volumes about where he is at in terms of achieving balance in the relationship. This suggests he's far more hen-pecked than we might have guessed from the initial rounds of posting.


----------



## Cynthia

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> My wife has locked me out of our laptop at home, so I am limited on internet things. Do you think that is a problem, and should I insist to be given access again? I did buy the laptop and internet service after all...


You betrayed your wife using the internet. What do you think should be done so that your wife can trust you in this area?

Many people say that computers should be off limits or anti-porn software installed in order to deal with this kind of thing. If your wife doesn't trust you to stay away from porn, what can be done to rebuild trust? Obviously locking you out of the laptop hasn't worked, since you stated that you've continued with the porn since then.

If you say you are (or are not) doing something that is upsetting to your spouse, it is on you to rebuild trust. How can you do that? She should not be the one trying to keep you away from porn. You are an adult and should be able to control yourself and remain true to your vows of forsaking all others.


----------



## Cynthia

MarriedTex said:


> This is ridiculous. You're letting her treat you like a child.
> 
> I would be down to Best Buy to buy a laptop so fast her head would spin. If you just need Internet access, you could get a low-end refurbished Chromebook for $100. Though I would spend tons more just to make a point.
> 
> Boundary: You will not restrict my access to computers under any circumstances.
> 
> Consequence: You get yourself a new computer with your own password or you cut the Internet service for everybody in the house.
> 
> I guess you don't want to be that "mean guy." I get that. But those type of fears don't stop her from stating and enforcing her own boundaries. You have to begin practicing standing up for yourself in the right time and place. You have a decade of learned behaviors to unlearn. The sooner you start taking small steps to stand up for yourself, the sooner you will make it through the long path that will be needed to instigate change.


Seriously? Wow. He has broken his vows by lusting after other women, comparing her to them, not being satisfied only with her, and lying about it and you think he needs to make a point that he won't be controlled? Furthermore, rubbing it in her face and making a point. The point she would get from such a foolish response is that he doesn't give a rat's ass about her or her feelings. The woman can barely look at him during sex now. If he wants a happy marriage, tormenting his wife by treating her with such unkindness is only going to further damage a struggling relationship.

Yes, boundaries need to be set, but this is a marriage, not a friend's with benefits relationship. She needs to feel safe and right now she doesn't. Trying to make points in areas were she feels unsafe and threatened is not going to help this situation. It will make things worse.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

CynthiaDe said:


> You betrayed your wife using the internet. What do you think should be done so that your wife can trust you in this area?
> 
> Many people say that computers should be off limits or anti-porn software installed in order to deal with this kind of thing. If your wife doesn't trust you to stay away from porn, what can be done to rebuild trust? Obviously locking you out of the laptop hasn't worked, since you stated that you've continued with the porn since then.
> 
> If you say you are (or are not) doing something that is upsetting to your spouse, it is on you to rebuild trust. How can you do that? She should not be the one trying to keep you away from porn. You are an adult and should be able to control yourself and remain true to your vows of forsaking all others.


She is NOT his mother and this is overstepping boundaries soooo far. This is something that should have been discussed and and agreement reached between them, not HER taking upon herself to lock him out like a child.


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## Cynthia

3Xnocharm said:


> She is NOT his mother and this is overstepping boundaries soooo far. This is something that should have been discussed and and agreement reached between them, not HER taking upon herself to lock him out like a child.


I agree. However, he allowed this and hasn't done anything to try to resolve the problem. This has to be handled in a manner that works for both of them and builds their marriage rather than attacks it. There has to be a way for him to build trust. He has been deceitful. That needs to stop and he needs to work towards building trust. They need to learn how to work together for the benefit of their marriage and family, but right now she seems to be in full co-dependent mode and he is enabling her in that.


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## farsidejunky

3Xnocharm said:


> Personally I dont think he has a "lust problem"... he looks at porn like pretty much every other man who breathes air. She just doesnt APPROVE, like everything else.


It doesn't matter what you, I, he, or the peanut gallery thinks about his use of pornography.

His wife does not tolerate it. This leaves him in a position to either accept or not accept her boundary.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I like your terms and the idea of implementing them into my life.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Loving Respectful Marriage - My wife and I need to work on this. I will say that the last few days have been great. I have been communicating with her more, touching her more (not always leading to sex), and complimenting her more. She is probably suspicious that something is up.
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Financially Secure - I think this is going well. I earn enough and she doesn't spend enough to make this a real problem. I used to be really tight on spending, but I have loosened majorly compared to where I was. She spends 80% of the lines on our credit card bill at various local stores, and I don't really know what half of it is, but the total amount is bearable.
> 
> 
> 
> 3. My Own Growth (Hobbies?) - I need to spend more time/effort here. I work out almost every day, so that falls under this category. I watch a half hour of TV by myself during the day, so that falls here too. My wife has locked me out of our laptop at home, so I am limited on internet things. Do you think that is a problem, and should I insist to be given access again? I did buy the laptop and internet service after all... Maybe I should find a hobby.
> 
> 
> 
> 4. Time with Kids - I do tons of this, so I'm good here!


You are still not getting it. Or at least, you're not communicating that you get it.

A loving, respectful relationship involves communication. That said, help me reconcile number one with number 3. Because number 3 sure as **** does not sound like a loving, respectful relationship. It sounds like a parent-child relationship.

Also, complimenting her more really just sounds like you're trying to suck up. No wonder your wife is suspicious. I am too. 

Furthermore, why would you shower someone with compliments who is okay with treating you like a child? In so doing, your actions are showing her that you are okay with your current marital dynamic. Are you?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

CynthiaDe said:


> I agree. However, he allowed this and hasn't done anything to try to resolve the problem. This has to be handled in a manner that works for both of them and builds their marriage rather than attacks it. There has to be a way for him to build trust. He has been deceitful. That needs to stop and he needs to work towards building trust. They need to learn how to work together for the benefit of their marriage and family, but right now she seems to be in full co-dependent mode and he is enabling her in that.


QFT.

Does any self-sufficient man who knows his worth allow someone to do this to him? Nope.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## MarriedTex

CynthiaDe said:


> I agree. However, he allowed this and hasn't done anything to try to resolve the problem. This has to be handled in a manner that works for both of them and builds their marriage rather than attacks it. There has to be a way for him to build trust. He has been deceitful. That needs to stop and he needs to work towards building trust. They need to learn how to work together for the benefit of their marriage and family, but right now she seems to be in full co-dependent mode and he is enabling her in that.


I agree that if porn is a dealbreaker for her, he should not use porn. That's a reasonable boundary for her to set and one that he should abide to as part of the relationship.

If he were to get a new computer, it would be under the express understanding that it not be used for porn. (At least, in my opinion) And he should clearly state that he's not getting the computer to get access to porn, he's getting it to demonstrate that he's an adult that can handle having access to the tools that adults need to live everyday. 

The problem here is that he is allowing her to "punish" him for being a bad boy by taking away access to his computer. That's really not a mature way to handle this on either side. If he agrees to terms of the relationship that involves no porn, he should be mature enough to stay away from the stuff. Having him abide by the "no porn" rules by barring him from using the Internet really proves absolutely nothing. This is another example of the core problem DIGB faces: He's not on equal footing in the relationship, deferring all decision-making to her and basing his moods / happiness entirely on whether she is happy / satisfied with what he does for her.


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## MarriedTex

Also, I don't really understand the purpose of the computer lock-out. I'm assuming he has a smart phone. He could access anything he would want from there anyway. 

Really, it comes down to living an authentic life. If you want to be an authentic dude in a relationship with a woman who has a low opinion of porn, well then, you don't do porn. Perhaps this is the type of weakness that leaves wife feeling insecure and worried that husband does not have the skills to "take charge." If he can't handle something so basic as cutting out the porn, she really can't trust him in bigger matters. That lack of her trust in him is emblemetic of the larger problems in the relationship. 

DIGB, if you want the benefits that come from being a trusted partner, you have to be trustworthy. She should not have to be policing you on the porn. To get respect, you have to earn that respect.


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## Cynthia

I think we are getting to the roots of the problem. Couples should be in unity as two equal adults, but this man's only values seem to revolve around not making his wife angry. He has no set of values or integrity that either he or she can rely on.

Actions based on trying to keep someone happy will not produce a good result. You don't seem to even know yourself. No wonder you live in fear. You don't seem to have much self control. How can you stop a compulsion if stopping is done to please someone else rather than to resolve a personal problem!

It's time to focus on growing up. You are behaving like a wayward child rather than a sekf aware and self controlled adult. I'm sorry, but there's really no way to say that better. I'm not trying to offend you. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## MarriedTex

CynthiaDe said:


> I think we are getting to the roots of the problem. Couples should be in unity as two equal adults, but this man's only values seem to revolve around not making his wife angry. He has no set of values or integrity that either he or she can rely on.
> 
> Actions based on trying to keep someone happy will not produce a good result. You don't seem to even know yourself. No wonder you live in fear. You don't seem to have much self control. How can you stop a compulsion if stopping is done to please someone else rather than to resolve a personal problem!
> 
> It's time to focus on growing up. You are behaving like a wayward child rather than a sekf aware and self controlled adult. I'm sorry, but there's really no way to say that better. I'm not trying to offend you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


My hunch is that we're seeing the product of a mess that has been almost a decade in the making. Both sides likely played a role in getting them to this point.

DIGB embraced the "happy wife, happy life" mantra with too much zeal. Early on, when the relationship was balanced, such behavior was fine - even commendable. But it's like eating cotton candy all day. Eventually you need to ingest something of substance or you'll get really sick. The relationship has gotten sick because DIGB keeps feeding cotton candy into it, going the easy "go along, get along" route. Instead, he needs to focus on the meat and potatoes of his own life. He needs to determine what is important and real and authentic to him and then live (and communicate) in ways that adhere to those principles.

It's a downward spiral. DIGB goes over board in trying to be a "wife-pleaser", wife invokes more control over what they do everyday and how DIGB should be punished for misbehaving. DIGB "allows" all this and does not push back on anything, deepening the cycle. DIGB needs to begin stepping up and acting more like an adult who has an equal say in the relationship. Ultimately, that will hopefully get wife to step back and act more like a partner than a parent. 

Edited to Add: Of course, we don't know the true nature of the wife. If she likes being in control, she will not like the changes she sees from DIGB as he adopts a new, more authentic, approach to living. She may see change as a threat and may even seek divorce, as a result. I know - in my own case - that fear kept me from pushing as hard, as far, as early as I really needed to do in order to instigate change. Even now, I'm probably only 60% to 70% where I should be, but I've moved along far enough to make things far more tolerable than they were in the past. DIGB, this is not a change that will happen overnight. It will take literally years of consistent behavior and authentic leadership to build the type of trust needed for a fulfilling relationship for both sides. Be persistent in your efforts at improvement, but also be patient.


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## She'sStillGotIt

After skimming through like 14 pages of pure hell, the one thought that kept going through my mind is, "why the hell is the OP trying SO damned *hard* to cling like grim death to such a dismal, unhappy, tyrannical, joyless, depressing, puritanical woman?

I don't get it.

Love (or co-dependency which would explain this train-wreck) is blind, I guess.


ETA: Not for nuthin' OP, but in a lot of states, once you're married for 10 years, that entitles your wife to part of your retirement. Just sayin'.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

farsidejunky said:


> why would you shower someone with compliments who is okay with treating you like a child? In so doing, your actions are showing her that you are okay with your current marital dynamic. Are you?


Good point - Last week was good week for us, in the sense that my wife did not get mad at me. I specifically increased my communication, told her I loved her more than normal, more hugs, etc. All of this shows that I am okay with my current marital dynamic, but I am not. I need her to stop getting mad at me. I need us to live in peace with each other. 

I do want unrestricted access to a computer, so I would like to see that change. However, what if I lust after other women at some point with it (almost a guarantee)? I don't want to hurt or upset my wife. This is the only reason I did not run down to Best Buy and pick one up over the weekend.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

She'sStillGotIt said:


> After skimming through like 14 pages of pure hell, the one thought that kept going through my mind is, "why the hell is the OP trying SO damned *hard* to cling like grim death to such a dismal, unhappy, tyrannical, joyless, depressing, puritanical woman?
> 
> I don't get it.
> 
> Love (or co-dependency which would explain this train-wreck) is blind, I guess.
> 
> 
> ETA: Not for nuthin' OP, but in a lot of states, once you're married for 10 years, that entitles your wife to part of your retirement. Just sayin'.


Ha! I am stuck in a rut, but it is a familiar rut. I have three kids with her. I swore an oath to her. How do I know that my life without her will be better that my life with her? I'm scared of the unknown. Also, we had a good week, which is a breath of fresh air.


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## 3Xnocharm

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Good point - Last week was good week for us, in the sense that my wife did not get mad at me. I specifically increased my communication, told her I loved her more than normal, more hugs, etc. All of this shows that I am okay with my current marital dynamic, but I am not. I need her to stop getting mad at me. I need us to live in peace with each other.
> 
> I do want unrestricted access to a computer, so I would like to see that change. However, what if I lust after other women at some point with it (almost a guarantee)? I don't want to hurt or upset my wife. This is the only reason I did not run down to Best Buy and pick one up over the weekend.


Number one, neither of you is going to die if the woman gets upset. You have GOT to stop being afraid to upset her! That is why you are here in the first place! You have every right to access a computer whenever you want, and making it happen is one way to finally assert yourself. (Just stay off the porn sites, it really isnt difficult, and doing so proves her wrong  ) And as long as you dont act upon any "lust for other women" you will be fine! All of us have some kind of attraction or lust for others at some point, whether someone we know or a picture out in cyberspace or a celebrity on tv. We are living humans, it happens. It is all about what you DO with/about it that counts, and most of us just carry on with our lives and dont put any importance on those fleeting thoughts. You arent dead, man.


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## Livvie

I guess I don't understand the computer thing ( her taking away the access). You are here posting. I assume you have a phone? You and your wife know you can access porn from your phone, right? So why do you have access to a phone but not the computer? Help me understand, then I have more comments...


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## Cynthia

Put anti-porn software on the computer. Have your wife install it. Speak to your wife about the computer and let her know what's happening. If you either hide it from her or drop it on her without letting her know what's going on, she will think you don't care about her. 

Stop worrying about making your wife upset and start learning to communicate with each other in a loving healthy manner. 

Have you purchased any of the recommended books? You need to understand the why behind recommendations if you are going to implement them effectively and you need to have your wife on the same page if you want to work things out with her.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia

Livvie said:


> I guess I don't understand the computer thing ( her taking away the access). You are here posting. I assume you have a phone? You and your wife know you can access porn from your phone, right? So why do you have access to a phone but not the computer? Help me understand, then I have more comments...


Of course he is posting on his phone or his other computer... :wink2:


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## Livvie

Well then her taking away his computer access like he's a child makes NO SENSE, right?


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## MarriedTex

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Good point - Last week was good week for us, in the sense that my wife did not get mad at me. I specifically increased my communication, told her I loved her more than normal, more hugs, etc. All of this shows that I am okay with my current marital dynamic, but I am not. I need her to stop getting mad at me. I need us to live in peace with each other.
> 
> I do want unrestricted access to a computer, so I would like to see that change. However, what if I lust after other women at some point with it (almost a guarantee)? I don't want to hurt or upset my wife. This is the only reason I did not run down to Best Buy and pick one up over the weekend.


OK, so in the past week you have proven that you can still be "perfect" enough that she won't get mad at you for a given period of time. I understand how these weeks of calm can be appreciated amidst a steady stream of marital rancor.

I might point out, however, that - in No More Mr. Nice Guy terms - that your emotional hose is still firmly attached. Specifically, you defined the week as "good" because the wife did not get mad at you. That is the very definition of basing your happiness on your wife's happiness.

What have you done in the past week to clean up your side of the street, to make yourself a better partner for your wife? (And, no, I'm not talking about "wife-pleasing" actions like hugging her more. That's good in a typical relationship, but your main problem is that you use your actions to manipulate outcomes. You hug more so that she won't get mad at you. The outcome that you seek is just as important as the action itself. 

I recognize that you have "lost yourself" while attempting to be the wife-pleasing husband that bases his happiness solely on her happiness. It's easy to let yourself fall back in that rut, and you might even have a good month. But you know - and I know - that it's not going to last. Ultimately, you're going to rock the boat in a way that makes her unhappy and that will - in turn - make you unhappy.

So, you have two choices, either you can begin taking small steps to work on yourself (it's a long, multi-year journey with lots of backward steps along the way) or you can keep on doing what you're doing. If you maintain the status quo, you trade long-term authenticity for short-term peace. The only guarantee in carrying on in current mode is that you will grow increasingly miserable as you placate and manipulate to stay in the good graces of your wife - who becomes the only arbiter of your happiness. 

You don't have to revolutionize your life overnight. But you have to start taking small steps. Have you explored buying "No More Mr. Nice Guy" yet. If not inclined to buy it, you might make yourself familiar with the No More Mr. Nice Guy forum (which can be found if you google it.) Until / unless you start taking steps to addressing the roots of your own problems will you be able to address the problems in the relationship. You can go on surviving meekly week-to-week, or you put yourself on the path to authenticity. Your call.


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## In Absentia

Livvie said:


> Well then her taking away his computer access like he's a child makes NO SENSE, right?


yes, I don't get it either... unless he goes to some café with wi-fi... :smile2:


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## DoesItGetBetter?

3Xnocharm said:


> Number one, neither of you is going to die if the woman gets upset. You have GOT to stop being afraid to upset her! That is why you are here in the first place! You have every right to access a computer whenever you want, and making it happen is one way to finally assert yourself. (Just stay off the porn sites, it really isnt difficult, and doing so proves her wrong  ) And as long as you dont act upon any "lust for other women" you will be fine! All of us have some kind of attraction or lust for others at some point, whether someone we know or a picture out in cyberspace or a celebrity on tv. We are living humans, it happens. It is all about what you DO with/about it that counts, and most of us just carry on with our lives and dont put any importance on those fleeting thoughts. You arent dead, man.


I agree - I have been "sober" for over one week now, so I may ask for access to the computer again soon. What if she says no? Someone said that I should just buy a personal computer for myself if it comes down to it! I will just have to train myself to keep away from anything tempting online.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

Livvie said:


> I guess I don't understand the computer thing ( her taking away the access). You are here posting. I assume you have a phone? You and your wife know you can access porn from your phone, right? So why do you have access to a phone but not the computer? Help me understand, then I have more comments...


Yes, I have a phone with internet connection, but it is work-related, restricted to only safe sites.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

CynthiaDe said:


> Put anti-porn software on the computer. Have your wife install it. Speak to your wife about the computer and let her know what's happening. If you either hide it from her or drop it on her without letting her know what's going on, she will think you don't care about her.
> 
> Stop worrying about making your wife upset and start learning to communicate with each other in a loving healthy manner.
> 
> Have you purchased any of the recommended books? You need to understand the why behind recommendations if you are going to implement them effectively and you need to have your wife on the same page if you want to work things out with her.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Thanks - the software might work. I read a few previews of the books online, along with reviews. I plan on going to the library soon to see if I can check them out.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

MarriedTex said:


> OK, so in the past week you have proven that you can still be "perfect" enough that she won't get mad at you for a given period of time. I understand how these weeks of calm can be appreciated amidst a steady stream of marital rancor.
> 
> I might point out, however, that - in No More Mr. Nice Guy terms - that your emotional hose is still firmly attached. Specifically, you defined the week as "good" because the wife did not get mad at you. That is the very definition of basing your happiness on your wife's happiness.
> 
> What have you done in the past week to clean up your side of the street, to make yourself a better partner for your wife? (And, no, I'm not talking about "wife-pleasing" actions like hugging her more. That's good in a typical relationship, but your main problem is that you use your actions to manipulate outcomes. You hug more so that she won't get mad at you. The outcome that you seek is just as important as the action itself.
> 
> I recognize that you have "lost yourself" while attempting to be the wife-pleasing husband that bases his happiness solely on her happiness. It's easy to let yourself fall back in that rut, and you might even have a good month. But you know - and I know - that it's not going to last. Ultimately, you're going to rock the boat in a way that makes her unhappy and that will - in turn - make you unhappy.
> 
> So, you have two choices, either you can begin taking small steps to work on yourself (it's a long, multi-year journey with lots of backward steps along the way) or you can keep on doing what you're doing. If you maintain the status quo, you trade long-term authenticity for short-term peace. The only guarantee in carrying on in current mode is that you will grow increasingly miserable as you placate and manipulate to stay in the good graces of your wife - who becomes the only arbiter of your happiness.
> 
> You don't have to revolutionize your life overnight. But you have to start taking small steps. Have you explored buying "No More Mr. Nice Guy" yet. If not inclined to buy it, you might make yourself familiar with the No More Mr. Nice Guy forum (which can be found if you google it.) Until / unless you start taking steps to addressing the roots of your own problems will you be able to address the problems in the relationship. You can go on surviving meekly week-to-week, or you put yourself on the path to authenticity. Your call.


The preview that I read from NMMNG described me almost perfectly. I'm scared of the idea of authenticity, especially if my wife doesn't like who I am, the coming confrontation with her, how it will all play out. I'm going to look for some of the books at the library soon. 

Over the past week, I increased communications, touching, and kissing. You are right - I am doing this so that she will be happier, and therefore I will be happier because we will not be fighting. I talked with her about Non-negotiable Unalterable Terms (NUT), and I shared that having a marriage with respect, talking, sex, no-name calling, no yelling, is my NUT for right now. She seemed to respect that.


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## 3Xnocharm

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I agree - I have been "sober" for over one week now, so I may ask for access to the computer again soon. What if she says no? Someone said that I should just buy a personal computer for myself if it comes down to it! I will just have to train myself to keep away from anything tempting online.


You dont ASK! She is NOT YOUR MOTHER! What if she says no... REALLY??


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## MarriedTex

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> The preview that I read from NMMNG described me almost perfectly. I'm scared of the idea of authenticity, especially if my wife doesn't like who I am, the coming confrontation with her, how it will all play out. I'm going to look for some of the books at the library soon.
> 
> Over the past week, I increased communications, touching, and kissing. You are right - I am doing this so that she will be happier, and therefore I will be happier because we will not be fighting. I talked with her about Non-negotiable Unalterable Terms (NUT), and I shared that having a marriage with respect, talking, sex, no-name calling, no yelling, is my NUT for right now. She seemed to respect that.


Free downloads to NMMNG are relatively widely available online. 

One thing to remember, this is your journey. You really have to let your actions do the talking. You clearly state what you are willing and unwilling to accept. You also set consequences for what will happen if your boundaries are violated. You become a predictable vending machine. She does "X" and "Y" will happen. 

I get the fear about upending life's apple cart. But the path to authenticity requires an iterative process over time, not an overnight flash cut. You could always abandon ship mid-course and go back to being a wife-pleasing push-over. (Though I don't know why you would want that.) Remember,the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, hoping for a different result. Time to start your journey to self-improvement and let the chips fall where they may.


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## Diana7

Marduk said:


> I believe it's a human condition to have doubts. I could be wrong. Wasn't Jesus supposed to have doubts?


Pretty sure He didn't no.


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## Cynthia

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I agree - I have been "sober" for over one week now, so I may ask for access to the computer again soon. What if she says no? Someone said that I should just buy a personal computer for myself if it comes down to it! I will just have to train myself to keep away from anything tempting online.


I’m glad to hear that you have stopped the porn. I think you will need to have porn blocking software on your computer. 

Since this is an area of contention in your marriage, it is something that you should speak to your wife about and come to a resolution together. She cannot dictate to you how you are to live your life, but you two are married and should always consider each other and seek to be loving in your interactions. You are not your wife’s boss and she isn’t your boss. The two of you should work together to come to conclusions and resolve issues. 

Your wife has been hurt by your porn usage and doesn’t want you on the internet. She is trying to control her life, but in the process is being controlling of you. This is not healthy for either of you and should be discussed. How are you going to earn her trust and what can you do to freely use the internet without making her worried sick that you are lusting after other women rather than forsaking all others for her alone? That is something that the two of you should work on together. Maybe seek marriage counseling to work through that together? You don’t want to feel like you are married to your mother and I’m pretty sure she doesn’t want you to feel that way either. She does, however, want you to have eyes only for her and to be trustworthy. But you have to prove that on your own by being trustworthy rather than by her trying to control the situation to keep you in line so she feels safe.

The No More Mr. Nice Guy book will clearly lay out a lot of what your issues are, but I think his prescription is highly self-serving and not geared towards relationship building. I think the first part of the book is very good, but the second half is mostly trash. NMMNG is not about working with a partner to resolve relationship issues, but to learn how to become more self-centered, which I believe is an unhealthy way to live. Read to seek understanding of the issues, but if you implement his recommendation, your marriage will likely fail. For example, Glover recommends stopping partnered sex to focus on masturbation in order to learn about yourself. If my husband were to do something like that, I would assume that my husband wasn’t truly concerned with me or my needs and it would have profoundly negative consequences in our marriage.



DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Yes, I have a phone with internet connection, but it is work-related, restricted to only safe sites.


 How were viewing porn if you don’t use your phone and don’t have a home computer to use?


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## AliceA

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I agree - I have been "sober" for over one week now, so I may ask for access to the computer again soon. What if she says no? Someone said that I should just buy a personal computer for myself if it comes down to it! I will just have to train myself to keep away from anything tempting online.


I'm sorry to jump in here, but I have gathered from your posts that your wife has a rather traditional view of marriage where she expects you to be the leader in the household. In regards to asking her for access to the computer, I do not think your wife would respect this approach.

Personally, I prefer to see a marriage as an equal partnership, and even with this view, I would not be asking for access to my computer, I would be stating that this is what was going to happen. While I will accept and consider reasonable requests, I will not accept being treated like a child.

She has made a reasonable request that you stop using porn. From that point it was up to you to stop, not up to her to force it. 

You seem cowed because of her temper. There is a point where you will need to start asserting yourself more, as other people have already said.

I have to wonder if part of your loss of faith in your religion is because you do not feel like you fit the mould of the traditional patriarch. Your wife seems to have become the head of the household despite her religion that says she should be subservient. How does she reconcile this? Maybe feeling like she has to be the boss (I'm not saying this is fair, if that's what she feels) and take control is what is really getting under her skin. I might be totally off base since I'm not religious myself.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

MarriedTex said:


> Free downloads to NMMNG are relatively widely available online.
> 
> One thing to remember, this is your journey. You really have to let your actions do the talking. You clearly state what you are willing and unwilling to accept. You also set consequences for what will happen if your boundaries are violated. You become a predictable vending machine. She does "X" and "Y" will happen.
> 
> I get the fear about upending life's apple cart. But the path to authenticity requires an iterative process over time, not an overnight flash cut. You could always abandon ship mid-course and go back to being a wife-pleasing push-over. (Though I don't know why you would want that.) Remember,the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, hoping for a different result. Time to start your journey to self-improvement and let the chips fall where they may.


I got a CD of NMMNG from the library and am listening to it. The author seems to be writing about my exact situation! I get why you recommended it - bravo. I'm going to ease my way into any changes. My wife already suspects something is up with me. I need to hear what the author proposes be done about the Nice Guy Syndrome.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

CynthiaDe said:


> I’m glad to hear that you have stopped the porn. I think you will need to have porn blocking software on your computer.
> 
> Since this is an area of contention in your marriage, it is something that you should speak to your wife about and come to a resolution together. She cannot dictate to you how you are to live your life, but you two are married and should always consider each other and seek to be loving in your interactions. You are not your wife’s boss and she isn’t your boss. The two of you should work together to come to conclusions and resolve issues.
> 
> Your wife has been hurt by your porn usage and doesn’t want you on the internet. She is trying to control her life, but in the process is being controlling of you. This is not healthy for either of you and should be discussed. How are you going to earn her trust and what can you do to freely use the internet without making her worried sick that you are lusting after other women rather than forsaking all others for her alone? That is something that the two of you should work on together. Maybe seek marriage counseling to work through that together? You don’t want to feel like you are married to your mother and I’m pretty sure she doesn’t want you to feel that way either. She does, however, want you to have eyes only for her and to be trustworthy. But you have to prove that on your own by being trustworthy rather than by her trying to control the situation to keep you in line so she feels safe.
> 
> The No More Mr. Nice Guy book will clearly lay out a lot of what your issues are, but I think his prescription is highly self-serving and not geared towards relationship building. I think the first part of the book is very good, but the second half is mostly trash. NMMNG is not about working with a partner to resolve relationship issues, but to learn how to become more self-centered, which I believe is an unhealthy way to live. Read to seek understanding of the issues, but if you implement his recommendation, your marriage will likely fail. For example, Glover recommends stopping partnered sex to focus on masturbation in order to learn about yourself. If my husband were to do something like that, I would assume that my husband wasn’t truly concerned with me or my needs and it would have profoundly negative consequences in our marriage.
> 
> How were viewing porn if you don’t use your phone and don’t have a home computer to use?


Thank you - many good points. I mainly use my phone to browse a social media website that has a little of it, buried. On rare occasion, I use a computer in the home that she does not know can access any website. Honestly, I would like to just be done with it and have full transparency with my wife. However, sometimes we fight and withhold sex, and then especially I want/need an outlet... thus my predicament.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

AliceA said:


> I'm sorry to jump in here, but I have gathered from your posts that your wife has a rather traditional view of marriage where she expects you to be the leader in the household. In regards to asking her for access to the computer, I do not think your wife would respect this approach.
> 
> Personally, I prefer to see a marriage as an equal partnership, and even with this view, I would not be asking for access to my computer, I would be stating that this is what was going to happen. While I will accept and consider reasonable requests, I will not accept being treated like a child.
> 
> She has made a reasonable request that you stop using porn. From that point it was up to you to stop, not up to her to force it.
> 
> You seem cowed because of her temper. There is a point where you will need to start asserting yourself more, as other people have already said.
> 
> I have to wonder if part of your loss of faith in your religion is because you do not feel like you fit the mould of the traditional patriarch. Your wife seems to have become the head of the household despite her religion that says she should be subservient. How does she reconcile this? Maybe feeling like she has to be the boss (I'm not saying this is fair, if that's what she feels) and take control is what is really getting under her skin. I might be totally off base since I'm not religious myself.


Yes, my wife has a very traditional view of marriage and expects me to be the leader. I agree with you that she is irked that I don't lead how she wants me to. 

I will most likely be demanding unrestricted use of the computer soon, which will inevitably lead to an epic fight and how terrible of a man I am for having looked at other women in the past. I will likely swear off it, only to glance there again in weakness, hiding my shame from her. Maybe if my wife and I had a good relationship, I would not be so tempted by videos, but when we fight and withhold sex they are very alluring to me. I'm listening to No More Mr. Nice Guy, which I hope will help me realize that I have been trying to please her and hide anything that she does not approve of, only to leave me unfulfilled, unhappy, and still in a difficult marriage.


----------



## farsidejunky

Your relationship status is not the reason for porn use.

Your wife's disappointment with you is not the reason for porn use.

Your choices are the reason for porn use...your need to escape and run from confrontation rather than accepting it as a natural, necessary part of life.

When you embrace and confront reality, your need to escape it will diminish.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

farsidejunky said:


> Your relationship status is not the reason for porn use.
> 
> Your wife's disappointment with you is not the reason for porn use.
> 
> Your choices are the reason for porn use...your need to escape and run from confrontation rather than accepting it as a natural, necessary part of life.
> 
> When you embrace and confront reality, your need to escape it will diminish.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


True - I viewed it before and after marriage, during good times and bad. Could you please expound on what exactly I need to confront?


----------



## aine

I am a bit late to this party and I like @elles comments in particular.

You are both young and at this stage is marriage it is sometimes tough even when you are on the same page. The 'seven year itch' was not coined for nothing!

You do not spend/invest enough time in each other in terms of dates, one on one, etc.
You pulled a bait and switch, she married a devout Christian and is now lumbered with a porn watching, alcohol drinking, part time church goer, so yes she has lots to complain about.
In addition you have three kids who need a leader, she cannot do it alone.
The thing you have to remember is that your wife is frustrated, filled with resentment hence leading to the disrespectful belittling of you which is a vicious cycle.

I think this is fixable if you both do the work. You should both listen to Dr Eggerrich Love and Respect Podcasts. Your wife needs to know she cannot control you, and can only take care of her side of the road. Ask her to talk to a women's group about this and perhaps read the Respect Dare.
As for you, you need to shape up, you could lose your family. if you are having a crisis of faith go join a man's accountability group of similar group. You should read the Love Dare


----------



## aine

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Starfires - I came here to share what is going on in my world and try to make sense of it, to try to improve my lot in life, to hear the perspectives of others, to change if needed. I agree with another poster who said that my wife and I struggle with control issues. I think we both share some of the blame for the current, poor state of the marriage, but I feel like you are putting the blame 100% on me. Please stop suggesting that I am mentally or emotionally damaged goods, who needs to be "treated." By the way, your suggestion to tell my wife that I love her was a good one, and she appreciated it.


Why can't you sit her down, hold her hands look lovingly into her eyes and tell her what you are telling us, how you struggle with your faith (we all struggle here and there), how you find it difficult to follow the precepts and crucify the flesh, how you wish you could be everything she wants you to be but you are a sinner, ask her to pray for you. Tell her the positive things, you are still in love with her, you still love your family, you still want to be together, still want to go to church, still want to bring up the children to be the best human beings they can be. Promise you will work on one thing she asks of you, and she must promise she works on something. I doubt your wife expects you to be perfect, she just needs reassurance that all else will not fall by the wayside. 
I suspect if you do not follow Christian living, she thinks you may end up drinking too much, having an affair, as there is no boundary now, this is all playing on her mind. Men lose the religious conventions when they want to do whatever they want (which will usually be negative stuff). Her fear is realistic.
You both have to work on love and respect (I posted earlier about this). Your wife is hurting causing her to be resentful, ensure that resentment does not become bitterness as it will close down communication.


----------



## aine

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I agree that she loves me and is trying to point out my problems to fix me. I told her the other month that her getting mad for no good reason (maybe I wore the wrong clothing to church, maybe I wasn't moving quickly enough through the house, or maybe there was nothing that I did) was not helping anything between us and actually making the relationship worse. This seemed to hit her, and she mentioned later that it was actually correct. Can you please elaborate more about personal power, what it is, and what I can do to take it back?


I think your wife needs to learn about the power of respect. It is more important to you than love.

Explain to her that when she shouts at you (regardless of whether she has a reason) it is disrespectful and undermines your love for her.

https://www.loveandrespectpodcast.com/


----------



## Tasorundo

Does, I haven't posted in your thread before, but as a guy that has struggled with a sexless marriage, porn use, infidelity, Christianity, and so forth, I want to say a couple things to you.

First, your sin is yours. Stop blaming your wife for why you want to look at porn. It isn't her fault, no matter what the dynamic in the relationship is. Just like it is never a spouses fault if the other cheats, it is a choice made by the cheater. Until you own it, it will own you.

Second, what are you afraid of with your wife? Why can you not be the person she wants you to be, because I think you want to be that person as well. You want to be strong, you want to lead your family, you want to have passionate sex with your wife and you want her to be receptive to it. She wants those things as well I would guess, and she is frustrated that she has to take on roles that she thinks you should do.

Lastly, and this goes sort of back to the first, you are the only one that can make you happy. Life comes at you, and you cannot control it. Even if your wife was everything you wished her to be, she will still get sick, be tired, go out of town. How you respond to those circumstances determine if you will be happy and the kind of man you are. If your first move is to use every obstacle as an excuse to indulge in your sin, then what kind of person are you?

These are all things that I struggle with as well. Why is it hard to be the person I want to be and should be! Everyday is a chance to be that person and to mold yourself into a better person. Don't waste it hiding in the bathroom jerking off.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

aine said:


> I am a bit late to this party and I like @elles comments in particular.
> 
> You are both young and at this stage is marriage it is sometimes tough even when you are on the same page. The 'seven year itch' was not coined for nothing!
> 
> You do not spend/invest enough time in each other in terms of dates, one on one, etc.
> You pulled a bait and switch, she married a devout Christian and is now lumbered with a porn watching, alcohol drinking, part time church goer, so yes she has lots to complain about.
> In addition you have three kids who need a leader, she cannot do it alone.
> The thing you have to remember is that your wife is frustrated, filled with resentment hence leading to the disrespectful belittling of you which is a vicious cycle.
> 
> I think this is fixable if you both do the work. You should both listen to Dr Eggerrich Love and Respect Podcasts. Your wife needs to know she cannot control you, and can only take care of her side of the road. Ask her to talk to a women's group about this and perhaps read the Respect Dare.
> As for you, you need to shape up, you could lose your family. if you are having a crisis of faith go join a man's accountability group of similar group. You should read the Love Dare


Thank you for your comments. We can't spend much time together on dates due to our kids. At most, we can try to for one or two dates per month. I did not pull a bait and switch, as I honestly believed it when we married and for years into our marriage. Only recently am I realizing that I can't honestly believe the faith that I have been taught my whole life. The "P" issue is limited to a few minutes per week, but I can try to give that up again. As for alcohol, I bought a six pack *ONE TIME*, so I am not an alcoholic. I still go to church every sunday, although I skipped one time when we were fighting. 

I asked her to go to a women's group years ago, and she went one time. She demanded that I attend a men's group, and I attended for years.


----------



## Mr. Nail

Is this a blessing? Or is it a curse?
*Does it get any better*? Can it get any worse?
Will it go on forever? Is it over tonight?
Does it come with the darkness? Does it bring out the light?
Is it richer than diamonds?
Or just a little cheaper than spit?


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

aine said:


> Why can't you sit her down, hold her hands look lovingly into her eyes and tell her what you are telling us, how you struggle with your faith (we all struggle here and there), how you find it difficult to follow the precepts and crucify the flesh, how you wish you could be everything she wants you to be but you are a sinner, ask her to pray for you. Tell her the positive things, you are still in love with her, you still love your family, you still want to be together, still want to go to church, still want to bring up the children to be the best human beings they can be. Promise you will work on one thing she asks of you, and she must promise she works on something. I doubt your wife expects you to be perfect, she just needs reassurance that all else will not fall by the wayside.
> I suspect if you do not follow Christian living, she thinks you may end up drinking too much, having an affair, as there is no boundary now, this is all playing on her mind. Men lose the religious conventions when they want to do whatever they want (which will usually be negative stuff). Her fear is realistic.
> You both have to work on love and respect (I posted earlier about this). Your wife is hurting causing her to be resentful, ensure that resentment does not become bitterness as it will close down communication.


Good advice - I think that I have said these types of things many times, but I can do it again soon. I can't do too much all of a sudden, as she is already seeing some changes in me, and I don't want her to get suspicious.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

Tasorundo said:


> Does, I haven't posted in your thread before, but as a guy that has struggled with a sexless marriage, porn use, infidelity, Christianity, and so forth, I want to say a couple things to you.
> 
> First, your sin is yours. Stop blaming your wife for why you want to look at porn. It isn't her fault, no matter what the dynamic in the relationship is. Just like it is never a spouses fault if the other cheats, it is a choice made by the cheater. Until you own it, it will own you.
> 
> Second, what are you afraid of with your wife? Why can you not be the person she wants you to be, because I think you want to be that person as well. You want to be strong, you want to lead your family, you want to have passionate sex with your wife and you want her to be receptive to it. She wants those things as well I would guess, and she is frustrated that she has to take on roles that she thinks you should do.
> 
> Lastly, and this goes sort of back to the first, you are the only one that can make you happy. Life comes at you, and you cannot control it. Even if your wife was everything you wished her to be, she will still get sick, be tired, go out of town. How you respond to those circumstances determine if you will be happy and the kind of man you are. If your first move is to use every obstacle as an excuse to indulge in your sin, then what kind of person are you?
> 
> These are all things that I struggle with as well. Why is it hard to be the person I want to be and should be! Everyday is a chance to be that person and to mold yourself into a better person. Don't waste it hiding in the bathroom jerking off.


I agree - the "P" usage is my fault. 

I am afraid of her displeasure. I no longer believe the Bible, and that has upset her greatly, so I am a dissapointment to her here. My wife wants me to lead the family in spiritual matters, but I no longer hold to my old theology, making my futile in this area. 

I agree that I have a happiness problem, and I am trying to figure out what I want out of life in general. I'm going through No More Mr. Nice Guy right now to learn how I ended up here.


----------



## Tasorundo

So what is your theology now? Was there a moment when it changed? Do you feel you never really believed any of it, but went a long with it because other people wanted you to?

When you say you are afraid of her displeasure, it sounds so much like me. I became obsessed with making my wife happy and insulating her from everything I could. I created high levels of anxiety in myself trying to control situations, to optimize our chances of having sex, because she was in a better mood. Overtime, I developed obsessive/compulsive behaviors and fears that were irrational.

By trying to make her as happy as I could, I was making her unhappy as well. She could sense the tension in me, she could never live up to what I was trying to create in her and she couldn't be happy just because I wanted her to be. Just like you cannot be happy because your wife wants you to be, only you can make yourself happy.

The marriage was miserable a lot of the time, with thick tension, inaction on my part, quick temper with our son, all under the guise of protecting her. Ultimately it was my selfishness that was causing it all, it had little to do with her at all.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

Tasorundo said:


> So what is your theology now? Was there a moment when it changed? Do you feel you never really believed any of it, but went a long with it because other people wanted you to?
> 
> When you say you are afraid of her displeasure, it sounds so much like me. I became obsessed with making my wife happy and insulating her from everything I could. I created high levels of anxiety in myself trying to control situations, to optimize our chances of having sex, because she was in a better mood. Overtime, I developed obsessive/compulsive behaviors and fears that were irrational.
> 
> By trying to make her as happy as I could, I was making her unhappy as well. She could sense the tension in me, she could never live up to what I was trying to create in her and she couldn't be happy just because I wanted her to be. Just like you cannot be happy because your wife wants you to be, only you can make yourself happy.
> 
> The marriage was miserable a lot of the time, with thick tension, inaction on my part, quick temper with our son, all under the guise of protecting her. Ultimately it was my selfishness that was causing it all, it had little to do with her at all.


Thank you for sharing - we have some commonalities. I'm agnostic - one cannot really know what happens or doesn't happen after death until one is there. I was brought up with a specific theology, so I believed it. I started having doubts years ago, but only last year or so decided it was too much to take. I'm finding relief from the constant refrain of guilt in my mind, "oh no, how am I sinning now?"


----------



## Tasorundo

That sounds like a pretty rough theology if it was just a constant guilt streak. I would caution you that if you feel you are doing things you should not and are just looking to remove the guilt, it won't go away. Unto thine own self be true.


----------



## In Absentia

so, the OP has lost his faith, drinks a bit occasionally and watches a bit of porn occasionally... wow, he really is a bad man...


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

In Absentia said:


> so, the OP has lost his faith, drinks a bit occasionally and watches a bit of porn occasionally... wow, he really is a bad man...


LOL - I bought one six pack and drank it over the course of one week :grin2:

I am trying to accept myself for who I am and not be so hard on myself. However, I can try to cut the "P" again, as my wife has a BIG problem with it.


----------



## MarriedTex

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Good advice - I think that I have said these types of things many times, but I can do it again soon. I can't do too much all of a sudden, as she is already seeing some changes in me, and I don't want her to get suspicious.


Remember, don't reveal to your wife that you're reading / adopting NMMNG. To do so would be just another form of approval seeking and counter-productive. If she quizzes you on changes of behavior, just say that you're focusing more effort on long overdue self-improvement efforts.


----------



## In Absentia

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I am trying to accept myself for who I am and not be so hard on myself. However, I can try to cut the "P" again, as my wife has a BIG problem with it.


I think this is all you can do. But remember, the flesh is weak. If you fail, try again. There's nothing wrong in that.


----------



## AliceA

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Thank you for your comments. We can't spend much time together on dates due to our kids. At most, we can try to for one or two dates per month. I did not pull a bait and switch, as I honestly believed it when we married and for years into our marriage. Only recently am I realizing that I can't honestly believe the faith that I have been taught my whole life. The "P" issue is limited to a few minutes per week, but I can try to give that up again. As for alcohol, I bought a six pack *ONE TIME*, so I am not an alcoholic. I still go to church every sunday, although I skipped one time when we were fighting.
> 
> I asked her to go to a women's group years ago, and she went one time. She demanded that I attend a men's group, and I attended for years.


Just for the record, I don't think you pulled a bait n switch. I think people change over time and we don't all necessarily stick with the same beliefs and opinions we have handed to us in our childhood. I also think that it can take years, decades even, before people sift through what fits them and what doesn't. Nobody knows the future. We should be told at the start of a relationship I think, because we're mostly too naive/stupid the first time around to realise it for ourselves, that the person you are marrying will change, that nothing is set in stone. Personally I'd rather be with someone who grows and adapts, than someone who stagnates.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

MarriedTex said:


> Remember, don't reveal to your wife that you're reading / adopting NMMNG. To do so would be just another form of approval seeking and counter-productive. If she quizzes you on changes of behavior, just say that you're focusing more effort on long overdue self-improvement efforts.


Well... she asked me for specifics of why I wanted to go to the library yesterday, and I told her about two books. I know she hates any book that is not Bible-based, so I am going against her wishes here. Although she did not verbalize this yesterday, I know it from previous discussions. For example, she would only ever agree to attend a marriage counselor who has the same doctrine as her.


----------



## In Absentia

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I know she hates any book that is not Bible-based


She hates most books, then? :surprise:


----------



## Livvie

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> MarriedTex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Remember, don't reveal to your wife that you're reading / adopting NMMNG. To do so would be just another form of approval seeking and counter-productive. If she quizzes you on changes of behavior, just say that you're focusing more effort on long overdue self-improvement efforts.
> 
> 
> 
> Well... she asked me for specifics of why I wanted to go to the library yesterday, and I told her about two books. I know she hates any book that is not Bible-based, so I am going against her wishes here. Although she did not verbalize this yesterday, I know it from previous discussions. For example, she would only ever agree to attend a marriage counselor who has the same doctrine as her.
Click to expand...


Going against her wishes-- when you read any book that isn't bible based?

She doesn't own you. She is trying to own you. You let her own you.

Don't you truly believe that you two are just fundamentally incompatible?


----------



## In Absentia

Livvie said:


> Going against her wishes-- when you read any book that isn't bible based?
> 
> She doesn't own you. She is trying to own you. You let her own you.
> 
> Don't you truly believe that you two are just fundamentally incompatible?



To be honest, she sounds like a nightmare to me... :laugh:


----------



## 3Xnocharm

In Absentia said:


> To be honest, she sounds like a nightmare to me... :laugh:


I agree, sir!


----------



## Livvie

3Xnocharm said:


> In Absentia said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest, she sounds like a nightmare to me... <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_smile_big.png" border="0" alt="" title="Laugh" ></a>
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, sir!
Click to expand...

I'll third that.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

Livvie said:


> Going against her wishes-- when you read any book that isn't bible based?
> 
> She doesn't own you. She is trying to own you. You let her own you.
> 
> Don't you truly believe that you two are just fundamentally incompatible?


True - she does not own me, but I have been letting her control me. I started going through one book now, so I am starting to assert myself at least in a tiny way. 

Yes, we are very different people. Part of me thinks that we can go along and get along, but that has been going poorly. Part of me thinks if we both try really hard we can succeed. So, I am going to try a bit more and see if anything improves. Actually, since I have been on Talk About Marriage, things have gone pretty well between my wife and I.


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## Livvie

But not because she has made any changes, correct?


----------



## farsidejunky

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Good advice - I think that I have said these types of things many times, but I can do it again soon. I can't do too much all of a sudden, as she is already seeing some changes in me, and I don't want her to get suspicious.


Eh, what???

Hide?

Hide changes?

WTF are you actually doing?

Clearly what is being transmitted is something entirely different than what is being received.

Do you need your wife's permission to change?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Well... she asked me for specifics of why I wanted to go to the library yesterday, and I told her about two books. I know she hates any book that is not Bible-based, so I am going against her wishes here. Although she did not verbalize this yesterday, I know it from previous discussions. For example, she would only ever agree to attend a marriage counselor who has the same doctrine as her.


"Thank you for your input. I will take it into consideration."

Then go get the damn books. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Casual Observer

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Well... she asked me for specifics of why I wanted to go to the library yesterday, and I told her about two books. I know she hates any book that is not Bible-based, so I am going against her wishes here. Although she did not verbalize this yesterday, I know it from previous discussions. For example, she would only ever agree to attend a marriage counselor who has the same doctrine as her.


There is an entire industry devoted to helping spiritual, church-going bible-thumping people enjoy a wonderful sex life. I would suggest starting with Awaken Love. If you think a Christian relationship/sex book would be too tame, her latest blog chapter is about prostate massage. https://www.awaken-love.net/blog/


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

Livvie said:


> But not because she has made any changes, correct?


I don't know if she has made any specific change during this past week that made it so much more pleasant than usual. I know that my setting up a date and outing, me increased communication, my more cuddling, has helped yield a more amicable week between my wife and I. I'm torn as to whether my changes are manipulative (a covert contract, if I show you love, then you will show me love) or me just trying to do my part to improve the marriage.


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## sokillme

I think your wife has a deep problem with control. I think her faith (as she practices it) helps her with this in a very destructive fashion, but I don't think it's the correct way to practice it. Lot's of legalistic Christians do though. @CynthiaDe touched on this before.

I would also say though if you promised not to look at porn and broke that promise then she has a right to be hurt and upset.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

farsidejunky said:


> Eh, what???
> 
> Hide?
> 
> Hide changes?
> 
> WTF are you actually doing?
> 
> Clearly what is being transmitted is something entirely different than what is being received.
> 
> Do you need your wife's permission to change?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Well, to be honest, I don't want her to know that I have been communicating with others about our marital problems. I don't think she would like this, or I don't want her to know my details (online activity). I am just trying to get help. I wanted some anonymous feedback on my situation, to see if others are experiencing similar situations or if I am in a uniquely in trouble here. I will discuss with my wife again soon how much I love her and how I am trying to do my part to make things work out, and I can blame it on the book if she gets suspicious. No, I do not need my wife's permission to change some things in my life. But as to big things, wouldn't you want your wife to consult with you before she went through a any major life change? I guess this is what you all were talking about "finding your inner power," power to change yourself for the better. What if she considers it changing for the worse?


----------



## MarriedTex

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I don't know if she has made any specific change during this past week that made it so much more pleasant than usual. I know that my setting up a date and outing, me increased communication, my more cuddling, has helped yield a more amicable week between my wife and I. I'm torn as to whether my changes are manipulative (a covert contract, if I show you love, then you will show me love) or me just trying to do my part to improve the marriage.


Never a bad thing to put more effort into a relationship. That will help smooth the waters. Some leadership displayed in setting up the date and outing (curious as to whether it's something she likes more or that you like more). Other things are really not changing the fundamental dynamic at all, in terms of setting boundaries/personal priorities and enforcing consequences. At the end of the day, you are reaping the benefits from putting more effort into wife-pleasing. Ultimately, you will measure progress by how you handle disagreements. Will your voice have equal weight in deciding the outcome or will you appease in a way that places a greater priority on her wants and needs than your own?

For now, it's fine to look for small ways to change the narrative. At the nadir of my NMMNG ways, I remember I always used to "announce" that I was going to go take a shower - as if almost asking for her permission to do so. One of my first small successful steps was just recognizing that I was doing that and cutting out that behavior. Look into your own daily ritual to see if you can identify small ways that you ask your wife for "permission" to do things - and then modify your behavior to stop asking for that permission. Nothing will likely change day to day. You will notice, but she likely won't It just gives you "practice reps" in getting accustomed to taking on more of a leadership role within the relationship. 

One step at a time.


----------



## MarriedTex

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Well, to be honest, I don't want her to know that I have been communicating with others about our marital problems. I don't think she would like this, or I don't want her to know my details (online activity). I am just trying to get help. I wanted some anonymous feedback on my situation, to see if others are experiencing similar situations or if I am in a uniquely in trouble here. I will discuss with my wife again soon how much I love her and how I am trying to do my part to make things work out, and I can blame it on the book if she gets suspicious. No, I do not need my wife's permission to change some things in my life. But as to big things, wouldn't you want your wife to consult with you before she went through a any major life change? I guess this is what you all were talking about "finding your inner power," power to change yourself for the better. What if she considers it changing for the worse?


Recall the phrase from Glover: the changes you make will make you a better partner and improve your marriage or it could send your marriage to a long overdue grave. Your assignment now is to practice how to stop being that manipulative Nice Guy living on covert contracts and work towards becoming an "integrated" authentic man who sets his priorities and enforces consequences when his boundaries are crossed. You become a person who says what he means and means what he says. Keep your mind focused on the process of learning - and becoming a better man. Everything else is out of your control. 

You have two paths: Maintain the status quo and live as a junior partner in your marital relationship for the next 40 years. OR Begin to take steps to fix yourself and your inability to state your needs / wants and develop the strength to enforce meaningful consequences that you can live with. That man will be better positioned for a healthy fulfilling relationship. It will be up to your wife to determine whether you have that relationship with her or her eventual replacement.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

MarriedTex said:


> Never a bad thing to put more effort into a relationship. That will help smooth the waters. Some leadership displayed in setting up the date and outing (curious as to whether it's something she likes more or that you like more). Other things are really not changing the fundamental dynamic at all, in terms of setting boundaries/personal priorities and enforcing consequences. At the end of the day, you are reaping the benefits from putting more effort into wife-pleasing. Ultimately, you will measure progress by how you handle disagreements. Will your voice have equal weight in deciding the outcome or will you appease in a way that places a greater priority on her wants and needs than your own?
> 
> For now, it's fine to look for small ways to change the narrative. At the nadir of my NMMNG ways, I remember I always used to "announce" that I was going to go take a shower - as if almost asking for her permission to do so. One of my first small successful steps was just recognizing that I was doing that and cutting out that behavior. Look into your own daily ritual to see if you can identify small ways that you ask your wife for "permission" to do things - and then modify your behavior to stop asking for that permission. Nothing will likely change day to day. You will notice, but she likely won't It just gives you "practice reps" in getting accustomed to taking on more of a leadership role within the relationship.
> 
> One step at a time.


How did you guess? My wife and I went to a place where she has been wanting to go. No surprise there! :grin2: 

Good - yesterday I announced that I was going to the library. Normally I would have asked. When questioned, I announced that I was going to check out some books. I think she was surprised, and then I did what I said I would do. Maybe this weekend, I could plan to do something as a test, like the neighborhood pool or a mall, and then announce that I will do it, inviting her to come with me if she wants.


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## 3Xnocharm

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Well, to be honest, I don't want her to know that I have been communicating with others about our marital problems. I don't think she would like this, or I don't want her to know my details (online activity). I am just trying to get help. I wanted some anonymous feedback on my situation, to see if others are experiencing similar situations or if I am in a uniquely in trouble here. *I will discuss with my wife again soon how much I love her and how I am trying to do my part to make things work out, and I can blame it on the book if she gets suspicious. *No, I do not need my wife's permission to change some things in my life. But as to big things, wouldn't you want your wife to consult with you before she went through a any major life change? I guess this is what you all were talking about "finding your inner power," power to change yourself for the better. What if she considers it changing for the worse?


How about instead you OWN your actions and let her know you are not ok with how your marriage is, and are looking to make changes to help it?

Has the thought ever occurred to you that the two of you may just well be completely incompatible now? With your change in/loss of your religious beliefs and her determination to live her life to the letter of hers, that there may be no way for the two of you to accomplish a loving, accepting marriage going forward? Pandering to her whims and demands for the rest of your life will never be a fulfilling life for you. And her trying to be in control of another person's thoughts and actions for the rest of hers surely couldnt be for her either. 

Just sayin.


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## Cynthia

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Thank you for your comments. We can't spend much time together on dates due to our kids. At most, we can try to for one or two dates per month. I did not pull a bait and switch, as I honestly believed it when we married and for years into our marriage. Only recently am I realizing that I can't honestly believe the faith that I have been taught my whole life. The "P" issue is limited to a few minutes per week, but I can try to give that up again. As for alcohol, I bought a six pack *ONE TIME*, so I am not an alcoholic. I still go to church every sunday, although I skipped one time when we were fighting.
> 
> I asked her to go to a women's group years ago, and she went one time. She demanded that I attend a men's group, and I attended for years.


My goodness. I guess your wife would be unhappy with Jesus, because he produced more wine for a group of guests at a wedding when they drank up all the wine. Not only that, but it was apparently very good wine at that. I suppose your wife probably says that it wasn’t really wine, it was grape juice. That doesn’t jibe with what the Bible says. Again, does your wife even read the Bible in context or does she pull out bits and pieces or does she only listen to the pastor? You and your wife seem to have a negatively skewed view of the Christian faith and what the Bible actually teaches.

If you want to drink, within reason, I think you need to tell your wife that you see nothing wrong with it and if it was good enough for Jesus it’s good enough for you. You might also discuss changing denominations, because the denomination your family is involved in doesn’t sound healthy at all.

What was the women’s group about and did your wife say why she didn’t continue? Did they teach you anything helpful at the men’s group?



DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Good advice - I think that I have said these types of things many times, but I can do it again soon. I can't do too much all of a sudden, as she is already seeing some changes in me, and I don't want her to get suspicious.


Suspicious of what! Goodness. You really are afraid of your wife, aren’t you? This is not healthy at all. If she asks, tell her you are working to become a man of integrity and to improve your life. Ask her to go on this journey with you. Afterall, you are “one flesh.” One flesh means that you have joined your life into one life. This is not only a Catholic idea, it is the general idea behind marriage. Two become one in the form of a couple with two distinct persons who have brought their lives together to live in unity and love.



DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I agree that I have a happiness problem, and I am trying to figure out what I want out of life in general. I'm going through No More Mr. Nice Guy right now to learn how I ended up here.


NMMNG will help you see where you are at. The basic premise of a nice guy is, is correctly explained in the book, but Glover’s answer doesn’t take into account that it’s not all about the “me.” It’s about integrating your needs and desires into your life so that your needs are being met, and many of your desires as well, but it’s balanced by the Golden Rule of doing until others as you would have others do unto you. That is not part of the formula in No More Mr. Nice Guy. Glover makes promises that this will revolutionize a person’s life, but if he’s not teaching men to take into account the needs and desires of others he is in relationship with. Glover is completely self-focused, so his formula is not going to work in resolving relationship problems and improving oneself.



DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I don't know if she has made any specific change during this past week that made it so much more pleasant than usual. I know that my setting up a date and outing, me increased communication, my more cuddling, has helped yield a more amicable week between my wife and I. I'm torn as to whether my changes are manipulative (a covert contract, if I show you love, then you will show me love) or me just trying to do my part to improve the marriage.


How would you like your wife to treat you? Treat her in the manner that you would like to be treated without worrying about whether it will change her behavior. If you are doing your part and she is having a bad attitude, then speak to her about her attitude and tell her that it’s not okay. If she continues, let her know that you need to withdraw in order to be away from mistreatment.



DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Well, to be honest, I don't want her to know that I have been communicating with others about our marital problems. I don't think she would like this, or I don't want her to know my details (online activity). I am just trying to get help. I wanted some anonymous feedback on my situation, to see if others are experiencing similar situations or if I am in a uniquely in trouble here. I will discuss with my wife again soon how much I love her and how I am trying to do my part to make things work out, and I can blame it on the book if she gets suspicious. No, I do not need my wife's permission to change some things in my life. But as to big things, wouldn't you want your wife to consult with you before she went through a any major life change? I guess this is what you all were talking about "finding your inner power," power to change yourself for the better. What if she considers it changing for the worse?


This is where communication is important. You are not demanding anything from her or seeking her permission. You are simply letting her into your life and finding common ground and supporting each other. If she balks, you can tell her that you expect her to respect your point of view. She doesn't have to agree with it, but she is not going to dictate to you how you are going to live or think. That's not healthy.

I don’t recommend hiding this from your wife, but I also don’t think it would be a good idea to share TAM with her. Likely it would create more issues for you. I would remain quiet about it at this time. Don’t lie to her, but you also don’t need to disclose every little thing in order to be truthful.

I don’t think the two of you are incompatible. Even though you don’t currently share the same faith doesn’t mean that the two you can’t have a healthy, happy marriage. If you leave your wife, you will still have the same problems that you have now. It’s time to clean up your act and get a set of beliefs that you live your life by.


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## MarriedTex

3Xnocharm said:


> How about instead you OWN your actions and let her know you are not ok with how your marriage is, and are looking to make changes to help it?
> 
> Has the thought ever occurred to you that the two of you may just well be completely incompatible now? With your change in/loss of your religious beliefs and her determination to live her life to the letter of hers, that there may be no way for the two of you to accomplish a loving, accepting marriage going forward? Pandering to her whims and demands for the rest of your life will never be a fulfilling life for you. And her trying to be in control of another person's thoughts and actions for the rest of hers surely couldnt be for her either.
> 
> Just sayin.


3X, you are absolutely right. But you are asking DIGB to run before he learns how to walk. In making a change like this, it doesn't go from 0 to 60 overnight. You have to have some small successes along the way and gradually build your confidence in advocating for yourself. 

Doing a full frontal attack on religious beliefs is a suicide mission that would end up in disaster right now. DIGB has not yet developed the personal tools or overall skills to direct that level of conversation in a confident manner. Indeed, DIGB for the next six months will be finding that-for every two steps forward - there will be one step back. You are right that he needs to stop pandering to her in order to establish a more viable long-term marriage environment. After 9 years of acting in one manner, it will take a little more than a week of coaching from an Internet board to transform him. This needs to be an evolution for DIGB, not a revolution.


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## Mr. Nail

Isolation is a tool of abuse.

Try this theology on for size:
"And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith."


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## 3Xnocharm

Well, I wasn’t meaning to suggest an attack on her religious beliefs. Just him taking an honest approach if she were to confront him instead of blaming his actions and thoughts on a book. I feel like honesty is desperately missing in this relationship. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DoesItGetBetter?

3Xnocharm said:


> How about instead you OWN your actions and let her know you are not ok with how your marriage is, and are looking to make changes to help it?
> 
> Has the thought ever occurred to you that the two of you may just well be completely incompatible now? With your change in/loss of your religious beliefs and her determination to live her life to the letter of hers, that there may be no way for the two of you to accomplish a loving, accepting marriage going forward? Pandering to her whims and demands for the rest of your life will never be a fulfilling life for you. And her trying to be in control of another person's thoughts and actions for the rest of hers surely couldnt be for her either.
> 
> Just sayin.


I appreciate your insights. I am struggling to come up with specifics of what I want changed. I could demand full computer access, but then I would need to be able to always refuse looking at videos of other women, a struggle for me. 

Yes, we are different people with different values, so compatibility is a problem now. We still highly value our marriage vows, though. I will say that we have been having a good past 1.5 weeks without her being mad at me about anything. We both do our marital responsibilities well - me at my job and her with the kids/house - so that is a positive thing that we have.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

CynthiaDe said:


> My goodness. I guess your wife would be unhappy with Jesus, because he produced more wine for a group of guests at a wedding when they drank up all the wine. Not only that, but it was apparently very good wine at that. I suppose your wife probably says that it wasn’t really wine, it was grape juice. That doesn’t jibe with what the Bible says. Again, does your wife even read the Bible in context or does she pull out bits and pieces or does she only listen to the pastor? You and your wife seem to have a negatively skewed view of the Christian faith and what the Bible actually teaches.
> 
> If you want to drink, within reason, I think you need to tell your wife that you see nothing wrong with it and if it was good enough for Jesus it’s good enough for you. You might also discuss changing denominations, because the denomination your family is involved in doesn’t sound healthy at all.
> 
> What was the women’s group about and did your wife say why she didn’t continue? Did they teach you anything helpful at the men’s group?
> 
> 
> Suspicious of what! Goodness. You really are afraid of your wife, aren’t you? This is not healthy at all. If she asks, tell her you are working to become a man of integrity and to improve your life. Ask her to go on this journey with you. Afterall, you are “one flesh.” One flesh means that you have joined your life into one life. This is not only a Catholic idea, it is the general idea behind marriage. Two become one in the form of a couple with two distinct persons who have brought their lives together to live in unity and love.
> 
> 
> NMMNG will help you see where you are at. The basic premise of a nice guy is, is correctly explained in the book, but Glover’s answer doesn’t take into account that it’s not all about the “me.” It’s about integrating your needs and desires into your life so that your needs are being met, and many of your desires as well, but it’s balanced by the Golden Rule of doing until others as you would have others do unto you. That is not part of the formula in No More Mr. Nice Guy. Glover makes promises that this will revolutionize a person’s life, but if he’s not teaching men to take into account the needs and desires of others he is in relationship with. Glover is completely self-focused, so his formula is not going to work in resolving relationship problems and improving oneself.
> 
> 
> How would you like your wife to treat you? Treat her in the manner that you would like to be treated without worrying about whether it will change her behavior. If you are doing your part and she is having a bad attitude, then speak to her about her attitude and tell her that it’s not okay. If she continues, let her know that you need to withdraw in order to be away from mistreatment.
> 
> 
> This is where communication is important. You are not demanding anything from her or seeking her permission. You are simply letting her into your life and finding common ground and supporting each other. If she balks, you can tell her that you expect her to respect your point of view. She doesn't have to agree with it, but she is not going to dictate to you how you are going to live or think. That's not healthy.
> 
> I don’t recommend hiding this from your wife, but I also don’t think it would be a good idea to share TAM with her. Likely it would create more issues for you. I would remain quiet about it at this time. Don’t lie to her, but you also don’t need to disclose every little thing in order to be truthful.
> 
> I don’t think the two of you are incompatible. Even though you don’t currently share the same faith doesn’t mean that the two you can’t have a healthy, happy marriage. If you leave your wife, you will still have the same problems that you have now. It’s time to clean up your act and get a set of beliefs that you live your life by.


Cythia, thank you for taking the time to write me. The women's group was about wives of women whose husbands have sexual issues - porn, affairs, homosexuality, and worse. My wife attended one session, but she did not like having to bring up past feelings and memories about my failings, so she never went again. At the men's group that I attended for years, they mentioned how living in honesty and openness is needed in order to overcome sexual issues. However, I cannot be open or honest with my wife, as the subject is too painful for her, and any flaws with my actions cause anger, fights, and threats of her leaving. 

Treating others as I would like them to treat me has been a cornerstone of my upbringing and my decision making. I agree with your plan that when my wife has another bad attitude for no fault of my own, then I will tell her that it is not helping our relationship and that I will withdraw until she is ready to treat me with respect.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

I talked with my wife for a few minutes yesterday about our relationship. I told her that I love her and that I am trying to become a better person, to figure out my theology, to be happy and share more happiness with them, to try to stop lusting. I asked for her patience and understanding. She said that she noticed my improvements over the past few weeks and she was pleased with what she saw. She said that she appreciated my increased communication. 

By the way, I just found NMMNG online, so I can read it AND listen to it in car.


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## farsidejunky

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I talked with my wife for a few minutes yesterday about our relationship. I told her that I love her and that I am trying to become a better person, to figure out my theology, to be happy and share more happiness with them, to try to stop lusting. I asked for her patience and understanding. She said that she noticed my improvements over the past few weeks and she was pleased with what she saw. She said that she appreciated my increased communication.
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, I just found NMMNG online, so I can read it AND listen to it in car.


That you seek her approval only digs the hole deeper.

When you find yourself in a hole, the first step is to put the shovel down. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## MarriedTex

farsidejunky said:


> That you seek her approval only digs the hole deeper.
> 
> When you find yourself in a hole, the first step is to put the shovel down.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Agree with FarSide on this. You haven't even begun to make meaningful change yet. Really, all you've done is put more effort into wife-pleasing. Why wouldn't she be happy? It's a short-term high of marital attentiveness that will be difficult to sustain and - over time - lead to even deeper levels of relationship resentment for you. You haven't even begun the process yet, and you're already looking for praise from Mommy. You have a long, long way to go, my friend.

You still have the hard work of identifying what you truly want for yourself (other than your wife's approval.) I know it's very difficult to do the process of getting to your own core and deciding what's important to you. Until you do that you can't lead, you can't set boundaries and you can't enforce consequences when your boundaries are crossed.

Stop looking for the quick solution, the quick praise. Dig in and start doing the work needed for a meaningful change.


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## MarriedTex

Also wondering about this "support group for porn" stuff. Something doesn't smell right here. Either you're way, way more into porn - and it's a bigger fundamental problem - than you're sharing with us on here. Or, your wife really is a really a judgmental religious zealot who needs every moral "I" dotted and "T" crossed.

Given your previous statements about her perception of you buying a six-pack, my hunch is the latter is closer to the truth. If this is indeed the case, you have a long, uphill road. I would refer you to a couple of threads on here by a poster named "CopperTop." His is an object lesson on what happens when a man gets trapped in a relationship with a woman who judges her husband's value based on measuring sticks set by others (i.e. religion, family). If your spouse uses external validation to support her extreme interpretations of "appropriate" behavior, I suspect that even a well-implemented version of NMMNG principles will meet with failure. 

The initial part of the NMMNG process is still valid to pursue, however. It helps you to improve yourself and make yourself a better partner for a "normal" person. The more glimpses we get into your wife's behaviors, the more it seems she does not match that description.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

MarriedTex said:


> Also wondering about this "support group for porn" stuff. Something doesn't smell right here. Either you're way, way more into porn - and it's a bigger fundamental problem - than you're sharing with us on here. Or, your wife really is a really a judgmental religious zealot who needs every moral "I" dotted and "T" crossed.
> 
> Given your previous statements about her perception of you buying a six-pack, my hunch is the latter is closer to the truth. If this is indeed the case, you have a long, uphill road. I would refer you to a couple of threads on here by a poster named "CopperTop." His is an object lesson on what happens when a man gets trapped in a relationship with a woman who judges her husband's value based on measuring sticks set by others (i.e. religion, family). If your spouse uses external validation to support her extreme interpretations of "appropriate" behavior, I suspect that even a well-implemented version of NMMNG principles will meet with failure.
> 
> The initial part of the NMMNG process is still valid to pursue, however. It helps you to improve yourself and make yourself a better partner for a "normal" person. The more glimpses we get into your wife's behaviors, the more it seems she does not match that description.


After discovering that I looked at porn sometimes (rarely... ~15min/week?), my wife told me that I would attend this church group for men with sexual issues or she would leave me. So, I attend the group for years. I was a relatively "light" offender in the group, as almost all of the other men were there for adultery, homosexuality, or criminal acts beyond that.


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## Cynthia

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I talked with my wife for a few minutes yesterday about our relationship. I told her that I love her and that I am trying to become a better person, to figure out my theology, to be happy and share more happiness with them, to try to stop lusting. I asked for her patience and understanding. She said that she noticed my improvements over the past few weeks and she was pleased with what she saw. She said that she appreciated my increased communication.


It's good that your wife is supportive of your need to make changes. These changes should be due to you wanting to become a man of honor and integrity, not in order to please your wife. A product of being a good man will probably be a happier wife and healthier marriage. The fact that your wife is listening to you and wants better communication is a very good sign.



DoesItGetBetter? said:


> After discovering that I looked at porn sometimes (rarely... ~15min/week?), my wife told me that I would attend this church group for men with sexual issues or she would leave me.


This is a deal breaker for your wife. I disagree that she is over the top or judgmental. Many people, myself included, do not tolerate porn usage. If you can’t stop, then you have a problem and I see nothing wrong with attending a group for people who are unable to control their sexual urges. The fact that your problem was much less serious than the others in the group doesn’t negate the fact that it is having a negative impact on your life. 15 minutes per week isn’t rare. It’s a regular occurrence. You are minimizing it, which is part of your problem. If you can’t stop, seek help.

I know I’m harping on the NMMNG, since I hate his prescription, but his comment that if you do what he says and your marriage fails that it wasn’t a good marriage to begin with it stupid and self-serving on Glover’s part. If my husband followed Glover’s advice, I wouldn’t put up with his self-centered and cold behavior, which is what I consider Glover’s recommendations to be.

However, his insight into what the problems are and about covert contracts, etc. is very good. Stop doing those things, but don’t use his methods to stop or you’ll have a whole other set of problems, including divorce. When a married person embarks on a self-improvement journey, it should include making sure that his relationships and responsibilities are taken into account, which Glover doesn’t do. You have a wife and a family. They matter. Going off on your own isn’t what marriage or parenting is about. However, you have to know yourself and be responsible for your own well-being in order to be a healthy person. That doesn’t mean going off on a track of self-centered narcissism, which I think is where NMMNG goes.


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## MarriedTex

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> After discovering that I looked at porn sometimes (rarely... ~15min/week?), my wife told me that I would attend this church group for men with sexual issues or she would leave me. So, I attend the group for years. I was a relatively "light" offender in the group, as almost all of the other men were there for adultery, homosexuality, or criminal acts beyond that.


Of course, every individual has to set their own boundaries and consequences. (See how your wife did that effectively with the porn issue? Just note that you can set boundaries with consequences, too) And every individual has the right to determine whether they are willing to live within the boundaries of the relationship they have chosen. If the boundary of your relationship is no porn use, then you have to respect it and live by it. 

Now, with that said. the read on the situation from this uninformed corner of the world wide web is that it looks like your wife has a giant stick up her butt. It would be difficult for me to live in a relationship that incorporated her boundaries. Now, that's not a license from me saying go watch all the porn you want. What I am saying is that you are in a relationship where your partner may have relatively high - and some might say arbitrary - expectations regarding your behavior along with an apparent need for a high level of control. If you can't always live up to those expectations, it may be more a reflection on her than you.

Again, this is no blank check for violating boundaries that you feel are unfair. You gotta keep the promises that you make. The challenge comes in setting rules of the road in which you both can abide. To do that, you have to identify what is important to you and what would be reasonable within the confines of your relationship. It's not cool to break the rules of the relationship that you have already agreed upon. But it is more than fair to discuss the boundaries and what you are willing to accept in order for the relationship to work for YOU, as well. (Your voice counts just as much as hers in this future discussion.) 

The question to ask is whether this is the hill that I want to die on - in terms of maintaining the relationship. I would not think that 15 minutes of porn a week would be worth sacrificing your relationship and family unit. If this is the case for you as well, then you just have to man up and stop doing it. Or - as an alternative - renegotiate the boundary and tell her that you will stop doing it if intimacy frequency increases to X times per week, if frequency is an issue for you. 

Give us a sense on your wife's past willingness to compromise on issues. Is she reasonable and will listen to-and consider- outside viewpoints. Or are things pretty much black-and-white based on her worldview. If she leans to the dogmatic side, your efforts are re-structuring your relationship will be that much more challenging.


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## MarriedTex

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> After discovering that I looked at porn sometimes (rarely... ~15min/week?), my wife told me that I would attend this church group for men with sexual issues or she would leave me. So, I attend the group for years. I was a relatively "light" offender in the group, as almost all of the other men were there for adultery, homosexuality, or criminal acts beyond that.


As a lapsed Catcholic, I can tell you that church groups may not be the most productive places to sort through issues of this sort. The hypocrisy of church leadership on this issue is beyond breathtaking. But that's a topic for another day......


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## Cynthia

MarriedTex said:


> As a lapsed Catcholic, I can tell you that church groups may not be the most productive places to sort through issues of this sort. The hypocrisy of church leadership on this issue is beyond breathtaking. But that's a topic for another day......


I think this is true of anyone trying to help with overcoming porn addiction, because it is more prevalent than opioid addiction. It's hard to find someone who has been successful. My church has a group. I've personally watched all the videos and looked through the materials. It's a good program with a lot of brain science included. According to one of the group leaders, participation in these groups is minimal and most men don't last to the end. They give up or their relationships fail and they get deeper into porn rather than dealing with whatever is causing them to rely on it.

#DoesItGetBetter? , Do you think you may be having trouble giving up porn because the porn never rejects or criticizes you? Are you are trying to take control over one little tiny area of your life? If that's what's going on, you have to deal with the critical environment you are living in by setting boundaries and by behaving appropriately yourself. I'm not say that she determines what is or is not appropriate, but of course their are common courtesies and behaviors that are cultural acceptable and not. You are in control of your life, whether you feel like it or not, and are therefore responsible for your behavior and your life. Also some of the books that have been recommended to you talk about what is reasonable in marriage and how to get along with your spouse without losing yourself in the process.


----------



## Marduk

Diana7 said:


> Pretty sure He didn't no.




Fascinating.



> When it was noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. At three o’clock Jesus cried out with a loud voice,“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”


Mk 15:33–34


----------



## Marduk

StarFires said:


> Yes, I stated depending on the severity, so there's no point in disputing what I said just to repeat what I said?
> 
> 
> 
> Marduk stated something rather unnecessary, if not nonsensical. You took exception as well did I. Were you trying to insult him? I wasn't trying to insult him by disagreeing with what he said, so what could there be insulting to you to make a comparison? If you were trying to insult him, then I understand your question. But that doesn't make it apply to me.




Listen. I’m a guy that has been abused by his wife. 

I understand abuse. All too well. And what it takes to deal with an abuser. 

Turning the other cheek accelerates the abuse. Acquiescing emboldens the abuser because it fires an operant conditioning loop that teaches the abuser that abuse works to control. 

You don’t negotiate with abusers. You don’t acquiesce. You don’t make nice. 

In the same way that you can’t negotiate a peace treaty with terrorists, you can’t negotiate ‘grace’ with an abuser. 

You stand up. Demand that it stops or you leave. Or you just leave. Period. 

I’ve listed the traits for emotional abuse. He’s agreed to them all. Therefore he is being abused by his wife. QED. 

Abuse is not love. Love is also a verb. Therefore his wife does not love him. QED. 

His wife clearly does not respect him, and his wife clearly feels he must do as she wishes - that she holds all the power. Therefore standing up for himself is likely to fail, because she appears to feel righteous. 

Therefore, there is one option left. Leave. He can leave the door open to further conversations once he’s no longer being actively traumatized, and it’s clear she no longer has the ability to control him through abuse. 

These are my reasons. I am not making stuff up. I speak from experience. 

OP can take it or leave it.


----------



## Marduk

Washashore said:


> Baptist Minister here. I was raised fundamentalist, with 7 literal days and the scriptures “inerrant in the original manuscripts”. Very few Christians are literalists. None actually. We understand metaphor and nuance and that the psalms are to be read and understood differently than the epistles.
> 
> What fundamentalists disregard is context. Everything that Paul wrote ( whose words encompass 99% of fundamentalist rules) is a contextual application of Jesus words. Paul was teaching us how to apply Jesus words to our lives. Instead we do a cut and paste with Paul’s solutions and wonder why they make a mess in our lives and context.
> 
> Jesus promised us his Spirit, which would lead us into all truth, not the Scriptures as that final arbiter of truth. The Spirit interprets the Word. Interesting that your wife has disregarded that fundamental theological point.
> 
> Fundamentalists focus on do’s and fonts and forget that Jesus came that to remove our burdens, not to add to them. But you know this. You are still firmly in the Christian faith, but a faith of nuance, and joy, and possibility. A theology of the Spirit. Don’t live under a spirit of condemnation. You’ve done nothing wrong.
> 
> You’ve looked at porn. You and every other fundamentalist guy, and almost every other guy, ever. If it bothers you, confess it to God, not your wife. Intimacy is a two way street. She has made the systemic and sweeping decision to judge you and to diminish your valid beliefs, and to think less of you, and expects this judgment with encourage transparency? Her theological arrogance is that of every fundamentalist.
> 
> What if she is wrong and all that she has been taught is nothing but a security blanket with millions of theological holes? That is what it is. You have not lost your faith, you are simply growing up into Gods future for you. Welcome to your new future.
> 
> Come on in. The water is fine!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Insightful. Thank you.


----------



## Cynthia

Marduk said:


> Mk 15:33–34


That's not doubting. That's crying out in pain and surprise at how difficult the whole crucifixion experience was. Like asking, "Father, where are you,?" when he knows full well where God is. If he doubted, he wouldn't be crying out to the Father.


----------



## Marduk

CynthiaDe said:


> That's not doubting. That's crying out in pain and surprise at how difficult the whole crucifixion experience was. Like asking, "Father, where are you,?" when he knows full well where God is. If he doubted, he wouldn't be crying out to the Father.



He doubted that God was still with him. And when he realized that he was, his doubt went away forever. 

Is this not the lesson in this parable?

It was my understanding that doubt was part of the path to faith, but that the doubt itself was necessary. And painful. The “long dark night of the soul” so to speak. 

The only reason why I’m posting about this here is because her own doubts might be triggering her overreaction with him. 

In a similar way that high profile anti-gay politicians have turned out to be gay themselves. The reason that they were so aggressive about it was because they doubted their own sexuality. 

I personally do not find her assertions of faith convincing given her overreaction to his doubts. 

You likely know more about such things than I do.


----------



## Cynthia

Marduk said:


> He doubted that God was still with him. And when he realized that he was, his doubt went away forever.
> 
> Is this not the lesson in this parable?
> 
> It was my understanding that doubt was part of the path to faith, but that the doubt itself was necessary. And painful. The “long dark night of the soul” so to speak.
> 
> The only reason why I’m posting about this here is because her own doubts might be triggering her overreaction with him.
> 
> In a similar way that high profile anti-gay politicians have turned out to be gay themselves. The reason that they were so aggressive about it was because they doubted their own sexuality.
> 
> I personally do not find her assertions of faith convincing given her overreaction to his doubts.
> 
> You likely know more about such things than I do.


I don't agree with your interpretation of the scripture, but don't want to take this thread on a rabbit trail and get smacked with the ruler.

It could be that she has her doubts, but I doubt it. (sorry couldn't resist) I think it is more likely that she has a legalistic view of scripture and is afraid, much like what DoesItGetBetter? was describing in that he felt guilty all the time when he was trying to follow religion. Her view of God is unhealthy. (And untrue according to my extensive reading of the Bible.)

Also, @Marduk, have you repented of your abusive ways?


----------



## Marduk

CynthiaDe said:


> I don't agree with your interpretation of the scripture, but don't want to take this thread on a rabbit trail and get smacked with the ruler.
> 
> 
> 
> It could be that she has her doubts, but I doubt it. (sorry couldn't resist) I think it is more likely that she has a legalistic view of scripture and is afraid, much like what DoesItGetBetter? was describing in that he felt guilty all the time when he was trying to follow religion. Her view of God is unhealthy. (And untrue according to my extensive reading of the Bible.)
> 
> 
> 
> Also, @Marduk, have you repented of your abusive ways?



When was I abusive?

I don’t believe in repentance any way. I believe in acting. If you regret something, you say so, apologize, and then change. Repentance to me achieves nothing. But I’m not religious so I cannot say what it would do for others.

Actually now that I think about it, that’s a secular view of repentance. Maybe?


----------



## Cynthia

Marduk said:


> When was I abusive?
> 
> I don’t believe in repentance any way. I believe in acting. If you regret something, you say so, apologize, and then change. Repentance to me achieves nothing. But I’m not religious so I cannot say what it would do for others.


I'm sorry, I misread your post and thought you said you were abusive. My bad.

Repentance is not an exclusively religious term. It is about changing one's ways. It is about changing behavior.


----------



## Marduk

CynthiaDe said:


> I'm sorry, I misread your post and thought you said you were abusive. My bad.
> 
> Repentance is not an exclusively religious term. It is about changing one's ways. It is about changing behavior.



Hang on, I think you’re onto something I missed. 

Her beliefs are unhealthy. I agree. If OP agrees with this interpretation, would this be helpful to him?

He seems very willing to be judged. Part of the reason I’m advocating for him to leave is that he cannot take farside’s advice without first viewing himself independently from his wife’s judgement of himself - how he exists independently. 

Her unhealthy beliefs are projecting into his worldview. It’s distorted. It’s hard to see reality when you’re living with someone that’s abusive.


----------



## Cynthia

Marduk said:


> Hang on, I think you’re onto something I missed.
> 
> Her beliefs are unhealthy. I agree. If OP agrees with this interpretation, would this be helpful to him?
> 
> He seems very willing to be judged. Part of the reason I’m advocating for him to leave is that he cannot take farside’s advice without first viewing himself independently from his wife’s judgement of himself - how he exists independently.
> 
> Her unhealthy beliefs are projecting into his worldview. It’s distorted. It’s hard to see reality when you’re living with someone that’s abusive.


I think both of their distorted beliefs are creating the problems here. Nothing is going to change if beliefs don't change. I don't think her beliefs are projecting into his worldview. Remember those were also his beliefs until fairly recently.

I don't think that all abusers are incorrigible and I don't think she is purposefully trying to manipulate or control him. She is afraid and is trying to get things back to where they were.

DoesItGetBetter?, how was your marriage before your declaration of your change of heart about the Bible?


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

MarriedTex said:


> Give us a sense on your wife's past willingness to compromise on issues. Is she reasonable and will listen to-and consider- outside viewpoints. Or are things pretty much black-and-white based on her worldview. If she leans to the dogmatic side, your efforts are re-structuring your relationship will be that much more challenging.


My wife is very black and white, very dogmatic. In a nutshell, her paradigm is that all people are horrible, need Jesus to save them, and then need to live according to every moral imperative taught by her by her fundamentalist church growing up.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

CynthiaDe said:


> #DoesItGetBetter? , Do you think you may be having trouble giving up porn because the porn never rejects or criticizes you? Are you are trying to take control over one little tiny area of your life? If that's what's going on, you have to deal with the critical environment you are living in by setting boundaries and by behaving appropriately yourself. I'm not say that she determines what is or is not appropriate, but of course their are common courtesies and behaviors that are cultural acceptable and not. You are in control of your life, whether you feel like it or not, and are therefore responsible for your behavior and your life. Also some of the books that have been recommended to you talk about what is reasonable in marriage and how to get along with your spouse without losing yourself in the process.


Yes, I like that women in videos never reject me are always available. I'm addicted to the dopamine hit of seeking and finding fantasy, release, pseudo-desire. I feel like doing it often, especially "triggered" when things with my wife are rough. It is a tiny area of my life that I feel that I can control. And yet I am ashamed by it. I am reading NMMNG, so I should get to the boundary part soon. My wife requires that I give it up. I have tried in the past to do so, but I eventually return to it. I am trying again, being "sober" for 1.5 weeks now.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

CynthiaDe said:


> DoesItGetBetter?, how was your marriage before your declaration of your change of heart about the Bible?


My wife and I have struggled to have a healthy marriage. We typically have some good days, maybe even good weeks, talking to each other, being intimate, doing our jobs. We look like the perfect couple. We put up a front that all is well with us. However, inside there is much strife. My wife has always compared me to the great men in her life (her dad and her brother in law), to which I fail due to differing theology. The pattern is basically I screw up somehow (porn, advocating public school, financial restraint, etc.), and then she criticizes me and my opinions greatly. I usually protest or defend or explain why I did what I did, but that often results in a fight - raised voices, silent treatment, no intimacy. I then change my ways trying to appease her (tried to get rid of the porn [redoing it now], given up the idea of public schools, stopped scrutinizing her spending, going wherever she wants to go, etc.) Honestly, the only thing that I can remember asking her to stop was her anger/outbursts. I am low maintenance, and I have capitulated to almost anything that she wants in an effort to garner her approval and peace in the house. I am realizing now that this has built frustration within me and resentment towards her (thank you Dr. Glover).

As a new piece of information to add, my wife confessed in the past that she has been "having feelings" towards my brother, who is going through a divorce. Basically, his wife stopped sleeping with him, talking to him, and controlled who he was allowed to see or not. My brother has theology that is more in line with my wife's theology. My brother almost always sides with my wife on any matter that he is privy to. Last night, I had a dream that my brother was naked in a bedroom with my clothed wife, and I just happened to see them. Back in reality, we are going to his house to spend the weekend with him, so I am going to be on high alert for any of the signs that my wife might be interested in him.


----------



## turnera

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Wow - thank you for your insights. It is funny that you mention it. My wife comes from a very strict, Fundamentalist background. We are talking women in dresses to the floor (sometimes a few head-coverings), men in suits only, men only leaders, appearance of perfection at all times, keep away from the damned, don't send your kids to public school, go to church, Sunday school, Sunday night service, Wednesday night service, church activities in addition to this, heavy on showing good works, etc...


If that's what she thought you were, too, I can see how she'd be upset that you didn't 'live up' to that sort of dedication. Being THAT committed to what your church tells you to do is very hard to pull off, let alone if your spouse isn't also doing it.

That said, I think she's in the wrong. More later. Need to finish reading.


----------



## jlg07

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> As a new piece of information to add, my wife confessed in the past that *she has been "having feelings" towards my brother, *who is going through a divorce. Basically, his wife stopped sleeping with him, talking to him, and controlled who he was allowed to see or not. My brother has theology that is more in line with my wife's theology. My brother almost always sides with my wife on any matter that he is privy to. Last night, I had a dream that my brother was naked in a bedroom with my clothed wife, and I just happened to see them. Back in reality, we are going to his house to spend the weekend with him, so I am going to be on high alert for any of the signs that my wife might be interested in him.


And how does your wife say THAT fits in with her theology? Did she ever hear about the 10 commandments? What is her view on this. Does she also not see the irony that she feels bad about your BROTHER and HIS wife trying to control HIM, and what she is doing to YOU?

You better be VERY aware of this -- do you have access to her phone? Have you had any suspicions of them being together alone? How do you get along with your brother -- do you think he would do that to you?


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

jlg07 said:


> And how does your wife say THAT fits in with her theology? Did she ever hear about the 10 commandments? What is her view on this. Does she also not see the irony that she feels bad about your BROTHER and HIS wife trying to control HIM, and what she is doing to YOU?
> 
> You better be VERY aware of this -- do you have access to her phone? Have you had any suspicions of them being together alone? How do you get along with your brother -- do you think he would do that to you?


I am very aware of my wife and her relationship with my divorcing brother. I have access to her phone, and have never seen anything suspicious. When she texts him, she includes me, which is very open of her. My wife and my brother are both VERY religious, so an affair would be WAY out of character for them. My brother and I get along wonderfully. I don't think he would do that to me. Having said all of this, I will be on them like a hawk this weekend.


----------



## jlg07

What about the "shalt not covet thy neighbors wife" -- how does she square her "feelings" for him with that?


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

jlg07 said:


> What about the "shalt not covet thy neighbors wife" -- how does she square her "feelings" for him with that?


You're right - Biblical teaching and my wife "having feelings" for my brother do not reconcile. I've noticed how she acts around him, frequent smiling, attentive to his needs and conversation, often advocating his side in conversations. What annoys me is that while I do so much for her, she seems to treat my brother, who does nothing for her, how I want her to treat me.


----------



## MarriedTex

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> You're right - Biblical teaching and my wife "having feelings" for my brother do not reconcile. I've noticed how she acts around him, frequent smiling, attentive to his needs and conversation, often advocating his side in conversations. What annoys me is that while I do so much for her, she seems to treat my brother, who does nothing for her, how I want her to treat me.


Have you told her this?


----------



## MarriedTex

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> My wife is very black and white, very dogmatic. In a nutshell, her paradigm is that all people are horrible, need Jesus to save them, and then need to live according to every moral imperative taught by her by her fundamentalist church growing up.


I could never, ever be with someone like that. 

I guess we have never heard the story of how you met, how long you dated and the qualities that caught your attention in the first place. Does she still hold some of those characteristics, or is she still the same woman you married - and it's only you that has changed?

Second question: What is causing the brother's divorce? Does it happen to be discord on theology there, as well?


----------



## turnera

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> My wife has locked me out of our laptop at home, so I am limited on internet things. Do you think that is a problem, and should I insist to be given access again? I did buy the laptop and internet service after all... Maybe I should find a hobby.


Excuse me? What are you, 3 years old? You don't insist on anything. You TELL her to unlock the internet and when she refuses, you go call AT&T or somebody and have them come out and set up a new one just for you.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> You're right - Biblical teaching and my wife "having feelings" for my brother do not reconcile. I've noticed how she acts around him, frequent smiling, attentive to his needs and conversation, often advocating his side in conversations. What annoys me is that while I do so much for her, she seems to treat my brother, who does nothing for her, how I want her to treat me.


Psssht, let them have each other. Then you can go live like a normal person with free will.


----------



## turnera

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Last week was good week for us, in the sense that my wife did not get mad at me. I specifically increased my communication, told her I loved her more than normal, more hugs, etc. All of this shows that I am okay with my current marital dynamic, but I am not. I need her to stop getting mad at me. I need us to live in peace with each other.
> 
> I do want unrestricted access to a computer, so I would like to see that change. However, what if I lust after other women at some point with it (almost a guarantee)? I don't want to hurt or upset my wife. This is the only reason I did not run down to Best Buy and pick one up over the weekend.


Lots of stuff in two paragraphs. You count a week good just because your wife doesn't get mad? Would you have kept dating her had you known that your only joy in life was from not getting yelled at?

She was only nice because you complimented her more. Were you not complimenting her at all before? If so, how would YOU feel if she never showed admiration for YOU? That said, if the only way to get her to be nice to you is to flatter her, you have a problem.

Are you going to a therapist to figure out why you're driven to porn? I suggest it has something to do with you being treated like a 3rd child, thus you are reverting to a 12 year old boy's way of relieving stress and gaining pleasure. Grown men don't need that crap. Grown men don't let their wives walk all over them; they simply don't tolerate it. 

Did you buy Hold On To Your N.U.T.s yet?


----------



## turnera

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Thank you - many good points. I mainly use my phone to browse a social media website that has a little of it, buried. On rare occasion, I use a computer in the home that she does not know can access any website. Honestly, I would like to just be done with it and have full transparency with my wife. However, sometimes we fight and withhold sex, and then especially I want/need an outlet... thus my predicament.


fwiw, you can survive without (hand) sex for a week, a month, even a few months. What's it worth to you to be a man with integrity?


----------



## turnera

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I agree - the "P" usage is my fault.
> 
> I am afraid of her displeasure. I no longer believe the Bible, and that has upset her greatly, so I am a dissapointment to her here. My wife wants me to lead the family in spiritual matters, but I no longer hold to my old theology, making my futile in this area.
> 
> I agree that I have a happiness problem, and I am trying to figure out what I want out of life in general. I'm going through No More Mr. Nice Guy right now to learn how I ended up here.


Even if you don't believe in the Bible, you likely believe in its tenets - godliness, forgiveness, integrity, helping others, prayers, etc.? Teach that to your children. You don't have to read the Bible to them. Heck, even if you're Agnostic or Atheist, you should believe in those things. Just lead your kids by talking about how to be good people.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

MarriedTex said:


> Have you told her this?


No - do you think I should share this with her?


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

MarriedTex said:


> I could never, ever be with someone like that.
> 
> I guess we have never heard the story of how you met, how long you dated and the qualities that caught your attention in the first place. Does she still hold some of those characteristics, or is she still the same woman you married - and it's only you that has changed?
> 
> Second question: What is causing the brother's divorce? Does it happen to be discord on theology there, as well?


We met through a church outing in her home state. We dated for ~6 months long distance, with a handful of personal visits in there. We found each other attractive. We both claimed Christianity. I thought she would be a good, faithful wife and mother for my kids. I started changing my theology over the years of marriage. 

My brother married a woman who limited his access to family and friends, who had a spending problem, who could not accept anyone else's opinion than her own, who stopped sleeping with him, who stopped talking to him, who hired a private investigator on him (finding no affair), who refused to ever admit that she was wrong (maybe one or two apologies over the years of marriage).


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

turnera said:


> Excuse me? What are you, 3 years old? You don't insist on anything. You TELL her to unlock the internet and when she refuses, you go call AT&T or somebody and have them come out and set up a new one just for you.


You're right. I need unrestricted computer access. However, I also need to stop lusting after women. Maybe I could get a filter installed.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

3Xnocharm said:


> Psssht, let them have each other. Then you can go live like a normal person with free will.


It's funny that you said that. I hate to admit it, but I was actually thinking it at one point. Maybe they would be happy together, and I would be happy elsewhere.


----------



## Marduk

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Yes, I like that women in videos never reject me are always available. I'm addicted to the dopamine hit of seeking and finding fantasy, release, pseudo-desire. I feel like doing it often, especially "triggered" when things with my wife are rough. It is a tiny area of my life that I feel that I can control. And yet I am ashamed by it. I am reading NMMNG, so I should get to the boundary part soon. My wife requires that I give it up. I have tried in the past to do so, but I eventually return to it. I am trying again, being "sober" for 1.5 weeks now.



You are attempting to self-medicate. Which isn’t a problem in and of itself, there are far less healthy ways to do this, like drugs or alcohol.

However I wonder if this coping strategy has become a crutch to you, making the unbearable just bearable enough to keep going.


----------



## Marduk

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> My wife and I have struggled to have a healthy marriage. We typically have some good days, maybe even good weeks, talking to each other, being intimate, doing our jobs. We look like the perfect couple. We put up a front that all is well with us. However, inside there is much strife. My wife has always compared me to the great men in her life (her dad and her brother in law), to which I fail due to differing theology. The pattern is basically I screw up somehow (porn, advocating public school, financial restraint, etc.), and then she criticizes me and my opinions greatly. I usually protest or defend or explain why I did what I did, but that often results in a fight - raised voices, silent treatment, no intimacy. I then change my ways trying to appease her (tried to get rid of the porn [redoing it now], given up the idea of public schools, stopped scrutinizing her spending, going wherever she wants to go, etc.) Honestly, the only thing that I can remember asking her to stop was her anger/outbursts. I am low maintenance, and I have capitulated to almost anything that she wants in an effort to garner her approval and peace in the house. I am realizing now that this has built frustration within me and resentment towards her (thank you Dr. Glover).


All of this behaviour is designed on her part to control you.





> As a new piece of information to add, my wife confessed in the past that she has been "having feelings" towards my brother, who is going through a divorce. Basically, his wife stopped sleeping with him, talking to him, and controlled who he was allowed to see or not. My brother has theology that is more in line with my wife's theology. My brother almost always sides with my wife on any matter that he is privy to. Last night, I had a dream that my brother was naked in a bedroom with my clothed wife, and I just happened to see them. Back in reality, we are going to his house to spend the weekend with him, so I am going to be on high alert for any of the signs that my wife might be interested in him.



Listen man, this is likely another attempt to control you - through fear of her cheating on you, or even her idealization of another man.

I wouldn’t put it past her to actually act on it, though.

You need distance long enough to see her for what she really is.


----------



## Marduk

jlg07 said:


> And how does your wife say THAT fits in with her theology? Did she ever hear about the 10 commandments? What is her view on this. Does she also not see the irony that she feels bad about your BROTHER and HIS wife trying to control HIM, and what she is doing to YOU?
> 
> 
> 
> You better be VERY aware of this -- do you have access to her phone? Have you had any suspicions of them being together alone? How do you get along with your brother -- do you think he would do that to you?



I can’t be the only one that’s not surprised at her hypocrisy?

There’s a reason she’s on a pedestal and acting like judge, jury, and executioner: rules are clearly for other people to follow. She’s above them, and above reproach.

This is why negotiations in good faith are likely doomed to fail. They will be ignored at best and used to manipulate him further at worst.

I’ve been married to a woman like this. Very much like this, minus the religious stuff. I never shaped up to whatever random **** she came up with to judge me by. There were always more hoops to jump through. I could never win, because only she got to make the rules.

And I couldn’t see any of that until I wasn’t around her any more.


----------



## Marduk

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I am very aware of my wife and her relationship with my divorcing brother. I have access to her phone, and have never seen anything suspicious. When she texts him, she includes me, which is very open of her. My wife and my brother are both VERY religious, so an affair would be WAY out of character for them. My brother and I get along wonderfully. I don't think he would do that to me. Having said all of this, I will be on them like a hawk this weekend.



You have to know this is all perception management, right?


----------



## Marduk

turnera said:


> fwiw, you can survive without (hand) sex for a week, a month, even a few months. What's it worth to you to be a man with integrity?



I agree. He should have stopped having sex with her a long time ago.

Honesty, if she tried to seduce him, my advice to him would be to laugh at her.

He has to break the cycle, and has to level the playing ground.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

turnera said:


> Lots of stuff in two paragraphs. You count a week good just because your wife doesn't get mad? Would you have kept dating her had you known that your only joy in life was from not getting yelled at?
> 
> She was only nice because you complimented her more. Were you not complimenting her at all before? If so, how would YOU feel if she never showed admiration for YOU? That said, if the only way to get her to be nice to you is to flatter her, you have a problem.
> 
> Are you going to a therapist to figure out why you're driven to porn? I suggest it has something to do with you being treated like a 3rd child, thus you are reverting to a 12 year old boy's way of relieving stress and gaining pleasure. Grown men don't need that crap. Grown men don't let their wives walk all over them; they simply don't tolerate it.
> 
> Did you buy Hold On To Your N.U.T.s yet?


Oh, good stuff turnera. What drove me to TAM was how I could get my wife to stop being upset by me so frequently. Yes, I have been measuring the goodness of my days by whether or not my wife is upset with me, because I just hate feeling downcast, like I have failed her, like I can't measure up to her standards (unlovable, unacceptable, unworthy). I would have stopped dating her if I knew what I know now. 

I don't think that we were complimenting each other much at all over the past few years. I would do my job at the office, and she would do her job with the house and kids, without much said with admiration. I have started complimenting her more and touching more over this past 1.5 weeks in an effort to build up our relationship, given previous advice on this thread. My fear is that I am doing this as a "covert contract," that if I show her more attention, then she will be nicer to me and we will get along well.

No, I have not gone to a therapist at this point. I have been reading NMMNG right now, as the library did not have Hold On To Your N.U.T.s.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

Marduk said:


> You have to know this is all perception management, right?


Marduk, I don't know what you mean. What is perception management, and how is it applicable to this situation? Thanks.


----------



## MarriedTex

Marduk said:


> I can’t be the only one that’s not surprised at her hypocrisy?
> 
> There’s a reason she’s on a pedestal and acting like judge, jury, and executioner: rules are clearly for other people to follow. She’s above them, and above reproach.
> 
> This is why negotiations in good faith are likely doomed to fail. They will be ignored at best and used to manipulate him further at worst.
> 
> I’ve been married to a woman like this. Very much like this, minus the religious stuff. I never shaped up to whatever random **** she came up with to judge me by. There were always more hoops to jump through. I could never win, because only she got to make the rules.
> 
> And I couldn’t see any of that until I wasn’t around her any more.


Gold, Marduk. Pure gold. DIGB, Marduk sums up your predicament in four sentences.


----------



## MarriedTex

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Marduk, I don't know what you mean. What is perception management, and how is it applicable to this situation? Thanks.


I think he means that Wife is trying to keep you in line by illustrating interest in / support of somebody she views as "better" than you. i.e. Wife is subtly telling you that "if you want me to love you, act more like your brother and be a good little fundamentalist."

To which I would say: "F*ck that sh*t."


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

turnera said:


> fwiw, you can survive without (hand) sex for a week, a month, even a few months. What's it worth to you to be a man with integrity?


Yes, I would like to be a man of integrity. I'm trying to stop watching videos, and I have gone months in the past. What happens though if I fail at some point? Does that mean that I have no integrity? I'd like to be open with my wife about it, but when I admit that I failed she gets very upset and has threatened to leave.


----------



## turnera

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Maybe this weekend, I could plan to do something as a test, like the neighborhood pool or a mall, and then announce that I will do it, inviting her to come with me if she wants.


I became so enmeshed in keeping my spouse happy that I no longer had a life outside of him. At one point I went through 2 years of therapy where my only homework was to announce that I was going to go to the mall by myself (he always went everywhere with me). Two years, and I never got up the courage to do it, for fear of his reaction. 

I'm past that now, but the old ways are still strong. You have to literally fight YOURSELF to do the right thing until it becomes second nature.


----------



## Marduk

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Marduk, I don't know what you mean. What is perception management, and how is it applicable to this situation? Thanks.



She is actively managing your perception of her and the world.

She’s trying to make you think she’s an ideal wife. An ideal Christian. She’s trying to replace your worldview with the one that she wants, so that she can control you.

This has always been about control, and one of the easiest ways to control someone is to manipulate their worldview.

I know, because this happened to me. She got into my head, convinced me that I had all kinds of psychological problems requiring extensive therapy, that I was delusional about her abuse, that I was weak, and that I should be just like her father, who she idealized.

That when she emotionally abused me, it was my fault, and that I needed ‘correction.’ That when she physically abused me, it either didn’t happen, was exaggerated, or was my own fault. Or better yet, that I was the one abusing her!

Classic DARVO - which stands for Deny, Attack, Reverse the Victim and Offender roles. Which is a classic mechanism that emotionally abusive people use.

There’s also narcissism written all over her behaviour. This pattern may seem familiar to you:

A Narcissist's Prayer
That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did...
You deserved it.

I’m sure you’ll soon be hearing, or have already heard, that if it’s demonstrated that she’s not acting like a good Christian, it will be your fault. You’re holding her back, you’re not a good man like your brother, anything she does wrong is because you deserved it.

I know, because I heard that, too.

It actually took me almost a year of intense therapy with multiple therapists to get me to understand that I wasn’t insane. That I didn’t have all these kinds of conditions she had convinced me that I had - she was a psych major, and very smart. 

I don’t want that to be your path, brother. I think you need to get out. I think you need to protect yourself from this person. The faster, the better. The more you are around her, the more damage she will cause you. The more ego depletion, the more your worldview and personality will be replaced by hers.

I’m actually scared for you, brother.


----------



## turnera

farsidejunky said:


> That you seek her approval only digs the hole deeper.
> 
> When you find yourself in a hole, the first step is to put the shovel down.


It's good that you said those things to her - once, but now step back and work on yourself. I do think that the way you describe the 'talk' was more of asking permission and her sanctimoniously patting you on the head. So work on not talking to her that way. If you have talks coming up, tell us ahead of time and we can tell you what to say.

Next homework: Find a friend. Call up an old friend you gave up for the marriage. Make a new friend by joining a club in something you like to do. BUT GET A FRIEND. You'll understand it once you read Hold On To Your N.U.T.s.


----------



## Marduk

MarriedTex said:


> I think he means that Wife is trying to keep you in line by illustrating interest in / support of somebody she views as "better" than you. i.e. Wife is subtly telling you that "if you want me to love you, act more like your brother and be a good little fundamentalist."
> 
> 
> 
> To which I would say: "F*ck that sh*t."



Yes, and more: “don’t believe your lying eyes... only believe what I tell you.”

She’s getting him to mistrust his own sense of self, and trust her opinion more.

This is why she made him ‘confess’ to her father that he feels lust for other women: to shame him into rejecting his own personality and the reality that everyone lusts for other people occasionally, and replace it with only her own opinion (and by extension her idealized father figure).

This is why I freaked out so many posts ago, and insisted that he should leave, and why she doesn’t love him. This has never been about love, it has always been about control. Her need to control is likely rooted in her own insecurities, maybe about her own faith. But this doesn’t matter. He cannot change it. She will not ‘see the light of day.’ Words from ministers will not reach her. The more he slips away, the more she will tighten her grasp. She needs him much more than he needs her, and this is what she is likely terrified of. Because if he leaves, she will be a failure.


----------



## Marduk

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Yes, I would like to be a man of integrity. I'm trying to stop watching videos, and I have gone months in the past. What happens though if I fail at some point? Does that mean that I have no integrity? I'd like to be open with my wife about it, but when I admit that I failed she gets very upset and has threatened to leave.



You’re setting yourself up for failure by playing by her rules, and reporting into her either your success or your failure.

Integrity is that which no one can give you, and no one can take away from you. It’s yours and yours alone. 

You exist separate from her, you know.


----------



## turnera

Marduk said:


> Fascinating.
> 
> 
> 
> Mk 15:33–34


lol, I thought the exact same thing.


----------



## MarriedTex

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> We met through a church outing in her home state. We dated for ~6 months long distance, with a handful of personal visits in there. We found each other attractive. We both claimed Christianity. I thought she would be a good, faithful wife and mother for my kids. I started changing my theology over the years of marriage.
> 
> My brother married a woman who limited his access to family and friends, who had a spending problem, who could not accept anyone else's opinion than her own, who stopped sleeping with him, who stopped talking to him, who hired a private investigator on him (finding no affair), who refused to ever admit that she was wrong (maybe one or two apologies over the years of marriage).


Curious, what was you dating history prior to meeting wife?

Given the Christianity angle, I'm assuming you were not intimate in the "biblical" way prior to marriage. The long-distance nature of the relationship suggests you might not have recognized her controlling tendencies during courtship. At what point in the marriage would you say you started noticing your own dissatisfaction. Is this something recent or long brewing? 

Do you see the parallels with your brother? While his soon-to-be-ex is not religious, he also selected a wife who "could not accept anyone else's opinion other than her own." I would suggest you married two variants of the same wife type: only one holds and credit card and the other holds a bible. This particular angle could be particularly fruitful if/when you decide to pursue counseling. It may suggest something in your shared upbringing that both linked up with domineering spouses with inflexible outlooks. 

It's very "Maury Povich" in nature, but the idea of pawning your wife on your unsuspecting brother is looking better and better. While probably not practical in the real world, it would seem to solve a lot of problems.


----------



## Marduk

MarriedTex said:


> Curious, what was you dating history prior to meeting wife?
> 
> 
> 
> Given the Christianity angle, I'm assuming you were not intimate in the "biblical" way prior to marriage. The long-distance nature of the relationship suggests you might not have recognized her controlling tendencies during courtship. At what point in the marriage would you say you started noticing your own dissatisfaction. Is this something recent or long brewing?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you see the parallels with your brother? While his soon-to-be-ex is not religious, he also selected a wife who "could not accept anyone else's opinion other than her own." I would suggest you married two variants of the same wife type: only one holds and credit card and the other holds a bible. This particular angle could be particularly fruitful if/when you decide to pursue counseling. It may suggest something in your shared upbringing that both linked up with domineering spouses with inflexible outlooks.
> 
> 
> 
> It's very "Maury Povich" in nature, but the idea of pawning your wife on your unsuspecting brother is looking better and better. While probably not practical in the real world, it would seem to solve a lot of problems.



Insightful.

She may also see his brother as more easily manipulated, hence her attraction to him.

My ex wife cheated on me with a very low paying, unattractive security guard in her office building. One of her primary complaints of me is that I never made enough money. But it wasn’t about money, it was about control. He was likely easily manipulated now that I think about it.


----------



## MarriedTex

Marduk said:


> Yes, and more: “don’t believe your lying eyes... only believe what I tell you.”
> 
> She’s getting him to mistrust his own sense of self, and trust her opinion more.
> 
> This is why she made him ‘confess’ to her father that he feels lust for other women: to shame him into rejecting his own personality and the reality that everyone lusts for other people occasionally, and replace it with only her own opinion (and by extension her idealized father figure).
> 
> This is why I freaked out so many posts ago, and insisted that he should leave, and why she doesn’t love him. This has never been about love, it has always been about control. Her need to control is likely rooted in her own insecurities, maybe about her own faith. But this doesn’t matter. He cannot change it. She will not ‘see the light of day.’ Words from ministers will not reach her. The more he slips away, the more she will tighten her grasp. She needs him much more than he needs her, and this is what she is likely terrified of. Because if he leaves, she will be a failure.


QFT. Preach, Marduk, preach!

One quibble I have with Brother Marduk, however, is that there is no need for a rapid departure. Rather, this is the time for you to work on yourself and become more skilled at identifying - and asserting - your own needs. Your changes are likely to cause your wife great angst. But they are necessary for your own self-preservation. Become comfortable - even encourage - the chaos it's likely to create. It's becoming increasingly apparent that there's nothing that you can do that will bring your wife into the "normal spouse" range. But the work you do now will help you become a more authentic partner for someone else if / when the time comes when this marriage arrives at its likely final destination.


----------



## farsidejunky

MarriedTex said:


> QFT. Preach, Marduk, preach!
> 
> 
> 
> One quibble I have with Brother Marduk, however, is that there is no need for a rapid departure. Rather, this is the time for you to work on yourself and become more skilled at identifying - and asserting - your own needs. Your changes are likely to cause your wife great angst. But they are necessary for your own self-preservation. Become comfortable - even encourage - the chaos it's likely to create. It's becoming increasingly apparent that there's nothing that you can do that will bring your wife into the "normal spouse" range. But the work you do now will help you become a more authentic partner for someone else if / when the time comes when this marriage arrives at its likely final destination.


This.

Your wife asserts control when she cannot adequately manage her fears.

Why does she fear? Because she associates security and safety with heavy-handed, domineering, patriarchal leadership...the exact opposite of what you are providing for your family.

As I stated before, I'm not suggesting that you need to become your FIL. However, I would bet that you becoming secure in yourself and assertive will result in her not seeking out as much control.

And if I'm wrong, and it doesn't work, you will have become a better man while simultaneously exposing her for being a terrible partner, even when you're not.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> This.
> 
> Your wife asserts control when she cannot adequately manage her fears.
> 
> Why does she fear? Because she associates security and safety with heavy-handed, domineering, patriarchal leadership...the exact opposite of what you are providing for your family.
> 
> As I stated before, I'm not suggesting that you need to become your FIL. However, I would bet that you becoming secure in yourself and assertive will result in her not seeking out as much control.
> 
> And if I'm wrong, and it doesn't work, you will have become a better man while simultaneously exposing her for being a terrible partner, even when you're not.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk



Were he able to see reality while being in relationship with her, and if he didn’t have his ego depleted to the level it has been, I would agree. I’d say the standard stuff: hit the gym, eat right, be gone a lot, don’t give excuses or explanations for his behaviour, ignore the insults or attempts to control her, etc.

But this poor dude isn’t there. Just like I wasn’t there when I was married to my ex. I couldn’t see reality because the person I trusted most in the world had actively been distorting it for years, abusing me for a long time, and was using very basic manipulation and operant conditioning tactics the whole time.

He needs to get out long enough to get strong. If he chooses to re-engage when he’s ready, so be it. But likely by then she will have lost any interest in maintaining the illusion that she gives a damn about him.


----------



## turnera

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> My wife is very black and white, very dogmatic. In a nutshell, her paradigm is that all people are horrible, need Jesus to save them, and then need to live according to every moral imperative taught by her by her fundamentalist church growing up.


No, taught by her abusive father whom she worships and thus must never doubt or question.


----------



## farsidejunky

Marduk said:


> Were he able to see reality while being in relationship with her, and if he didn’t have his ego depleted to the level it has been, I would agree. I’d say the standard stuff: hit the gym, eat right, be gone a lot, don’t give excuses or explanations for his behaviour, ignore the insults or attempts to control her, etc.
> 
> But this poor dude isn’t there. Just like I wasn’t there when I was married to my ex. I couldn’t see reality because the person I trusted most in the world had actively been distorting it for years, abusing me for a long time, and was using very basic manipulation and operant conditioning tactics the whole time.
> 
> He needs to get out long enough to get strong. If he chooses to re-engage when he’s ready, so be it. But likely by then she will have lost any interest in maintaining the illusion that she gives a damn about him.


Maybe. 

DIGB, the single largest thing you are going to lose is comfort. More specifically, emotional comfort.

You are going to have to accept that your wife will not like this one bit.

If you can't come to grips with this fact, then Marduk is right and you will need some separation from her.

if you can, for lack of a better term, embrace the suck...then you have a shot at doing so without actually separating from her.

It all depends on your level of tolerance, dude.


Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Cynthia

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Yes, I like that women in videos never reject me are always available. I'm addicted to the dopamine hit of seeking and finding fantasy, release, pseudo-desire. I feel like doing it often, especially "triggered" when things with my wife are rough. It is a tiny area of my life that I feel that I can control. And yet I am ashamed by it. I am reading NMMNG, so I should get to the boundary part soon. My wife requires that I give it up. I have tried in the past to do so, but I eventually return to it. I am trying again, being "sober" for 1.5 weeks now.


Good that you’re making progress. The key is finding other, healthier, ways to deal with the negative feelings and being able to express your dissatisfaction to your wife without hostility.

When you got married, had you two agreed upon homeschooling any children that you brought into the family? If not, when did this come up?

Your wife seems like a very honest person to share with you her feelings for your brother. Did she say why she did that? I hope neither of you say anything about this to your brother.

It is hypocritical that your wife is entertaining feeling for your brother. She did not have to share this information with you and I wonder if she did it as a protective measure, because she has obviously not been controlling her thoughts or she wouldn’t be continuing to have these feelings. A fleeting feeling isn’t something that is controlled, but to dwell on it and fan it’s flames is quite another thing. She wouldn’t continue to have these feelings if she hadn’t been allowing her thoughts to go there. She is not exhibiting self-control. I’d be careful about how you talk to her about this, because you don’t want to discourage her from coming to you with her issues, but I think you should speak to her about self-control and taking her thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ.



MarriedTex said:


> I could never, ever be with someone like that.


 If she had changed into this person that would be one thing, but she is exactly who she presented herself as. I understand that the marriage is dysfunctional, but both of them are dysfunctional. If they get divorced, they are still both going to be dysfunctional. They may as well try to work through this together to resolve these problems rather than taking this unresolved baggage between them into their next relationship. This isn’t good for the children. It’s time that DoesItGetBetter? makes changes to turn this family around into a more loving, peaceful household. I don’t think that should be too difficult to do if she is lead in that direction through her belief in the Bible, because the Bible does not teach this kind of critical, rude behavior. If she would read it and seek for herself, she would see that. Motivation from her husband should help her to see that, which will not only help her, but DoesItGetBetter? and the children who are being raised in this dysfunction.




DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Yes, I would like to be a man of integrity. I'm trying to stop watching videos, and I have gone months in the past. What happens though if I fail at some point? Does that mean that I have no integrity? I'd like to be open with my wife about it, but when I admit that I failed she gets very upset and has threatened to leave.


Integrity is about being honest about who you are and living out what you believe. This means you also have to have a set of standards you live by. I think it would be good for you to get into counseling with your wife and talk to her about your struggle with pornography. If she wants to leave you, that is up to her. Let her go. But she may not want to lose the family structure, which might motivate her to be more gracious towards you and to work with you.

I think your wife needs to recognize that how she is living is not biblical at all. Again, I recommend you get and read with her "The God Shaped Brain," by Timothy R. Jennings. I believe that your wife is so desperately trying to get you to lead her that if you start telling her what you are going to read together to resolve some of the dysfunction in your marriage that she will agree to it. She needs a better perspective. She thinks she's doing this because she has been taught this is how to be a Christian. She needs to learn that she's wrong, but you can't just tell her that. She needs proof. If you read to her (or take turns reading and listening) this should help her form a healthier view and be a much better wife and mother.


----------



## turnera

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> My brother married a woman who limited his access to family and friends, who had a spending problem, who could not accept anyone else's opinion than her own, who stopped sleeping with him, who stopped talking to him, who hired a private investigator on him (finding no affair), who refused to ever admit that she was wrong (maybe one or two apologies over the years of marriage).


So he married your wife.


----------



## turnera

farsidejunky said:


> This.
> 
> Your wife asserts control when she cannot adequately manage her fears.
> 
> Why does she fear? Because she associates security and safety with heavy-handed, domineering, patriarchal leadership...the exact opposite of what you are providing for your family.
> 
> As I stated before, I'm not suggesting that you need to become your FIL. However, I would bet that you becoming secure in yourself and assertive will result in her not seeking out as much control.
> 
> And if I'm wrong, and it doesn't work, you will have become a better man while simultaneously exposing her for being a terrible partner, even when you're not.


This is exactly your problem. 100%. It's always the psychology, dude.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

Marduk said:


> A Narcissist's Prayer
> That didn't happen.
> And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
> And if it was, that's not a big deal.
> And if it is, that's not my fault.
> And if it was, I didn't mean it.
> And if I did...
> You deserved it.


This is so good that I printed it out and put it on my desk. My brother's soon-to-be ex-wife was a textbook narcissist.


----------



## turnera

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> No - do you think I should share this with her?


IDK. Are you capable of saying it without being a jerk but also without capitulating the instant she goes off on you for daring to besmirch her? And she will. 

fwiw, women WANT to know their men will get jealous. It makes us feel wanted. They just don't want their men to turn into a$$sholes about it.


----------



## Marduk

turnera said:


> So he married your wife.



The only difference is he submits.

Hence the attraction. This isn’t likely to be a ‘fire in the loins’ situation.

It’s target practice.


----------



## Marduk

CynthiaDe said:


> Your wife seems like a very honest person to share with you her feelings for your brother. Did she say why she did that? I hope neither of you say anything about this to your brother.



I doubt it’s simple honestly.

I find it more likely that it’s either an attempt to make him insecure and therefore more easily controlled, or her acknowledgement that she wants someone more easily dominated.

Or both - a carrot and a stick, all in one.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

MarriedTex said:


> QFT. Preach, Marduk, preach!
> 
> One quibble I have with Brother Marduk, however, is that there is no need for a rapid departure. Rather, this is the time for you to work on yourself and become more skilled at identifying - and asserting - your own needs. Your changes are likely to cause your wife great angst. But they are necessary for your own self-preservation. Become comfortable - even encourage - the chaos it's likely to create. It's becoming increasingly apparent that there's nothing that you can do that will bring your wife into the "normal spouse" range. But the work you do now will help you become a more authentic partner for someone else if / when the time comes when this marriage arrives at its likely final destination.


I agree and am going to try to find some happiness in life, to focus on some of my needs. I don't know what these are yet, but I am searching. I have a few NMMNG affirmations running through my mind: 

I am lovable just as I am.
I am perfectly imperfect.
My needs are important. 
It is okay to be human and make mistakes.


----------



## turnera

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> You're right. I need unrestricted computer access. However, I also need to stop lusting after women. Maybe I could get a filter installed.


You do the exact same thing I do as a result of lack of control over my own life - pick feel-good things or actions to say to yourself that you are your own person, dammit! Except mine is going out to eat Mexican food and drinking wine, lol. 

But I know, I can see it, that once I gain control over my self and my authenticity, I will no longer NEED those things. Why I push myself to change, to stand up for myself, to stop worrying about how HE feels (not my problem). 

I daresay you'll realize the same thing.

I will add, though, that if you're not even getting decent missionary sex, it's going to be hard to be satisfied. Without going into too much detail, do you do things for each other in the bedroom? Does she orgasm? Ever? I'm betting she said no to that years ago.


----------



## turnera

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Oh, good stuff turnera. What drove me to TAM was how I could get my wife to stop being upset by me so frequently. Yes, I have been measuring the goodness of my days by whether or not my wife is upset with me, because I just hate feeling downcast, like I have failed her, like I can't measure up to her standards (unlovable, unacceptable, unworthy). I would have stopped dating her if I knew what I know now.


You realize this is all low self esteem talking, right? IMO, none of this is going to get fixed without you going to a (non-Christian-based) therapist.

What was YOUR childhood like?


----------



## turnera

farsidejunky said:


> Maybe.
> 
> DIGB, the single largest thing you are going to lose is comfort. More specifically, emotional comfort.
> 
> You are going to have to accept that your wife will not like this one bit.
> 
> If you can't come to grips with this fact, then Marduk is right and you will need some separation from her.
> 
> if you can, for lack of a better term, embrace the suck...then you have a shot at doing so without actually separating from her.
> 
> It all depends on your level of tolerance, dude.


Every single time I go to therapy (this is my 3rd, cos I never stuck with it in the past to make any real change), every single time, it's about me telling my husband what I think and what I want. And every time I cry, say I can't, say he'll be mad, and so on. Now, she knows he'll never hit me, doesn't even yell anymore, won't hurt me. 

And every time, every single visit, my therapist says "What's the worst that can happen?"

Because really, dude, what's the worst that can happen?


----------



## Cynthia

I do think you need to speak to your wife about her crush on your brother before you go to his place and let her know that you no longer want her texting your brother since it seems to be making things worse. You aren't telling her she can't. You are telling her that you are no longer comfortable with her communicating with him by text. Her relationship with him has crossed the line. Furthermore, you want her to redirect all of her romantic feelings towards you as you are doing for her according to your marriage vows. Tell her what you want. If she doesn't comply, then tell her that you will not be held to a higher standard than she is and let her think about what that might mean.

The only way this is going to turn around is if you lay down some boundaries peacefully and with confidence.


----------



## turnera

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I agree and am going to try to find some happiness in life, to focus on some of my needs. I don't know what these are yet, but I am searching. I have a few NMMNG affirmations running through my mind:
> 
> I am lovable just as I am.
> I am perfectly imperfect.
> My needs are important.
> It is okay to be human and make mistakes.


There are three best ways to find that stuff out. One is exercising, which you're already doing. One is becoming productive - build something, volunteer somewhere, learn how to do something, join a club for something (I'm thinking of taking my dog to flyball). And one is HAVING FRIENDS. You simply MUST make some, or find some, friends and start having man-on-man time. Please trust me in this. Who are you going to call up today or tomorrow to hang out with?


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

MarriedTex said:


> Curious, what was you dating history prior to meeting wife?
> 
> Given the Christianity angle, I'm assuming you were not intimate in the "biblical" way prior to marriage. The long-distance nature of the relationship suggests you might not have recognized her controlling tendencies during courtship. At what point in the marriage would you say you started noticing your own dissatisfaction. Is this something recent or long brewing?
> 
> Do you see the parallels with your brother? While his soon-to-be-ex is not religious, he also selected a wife who "could not accept anyone else's opinion other than her own." I would suggest you married two variants of the same wife type: only one holds and credit card and the other holds a bible. This particular angle could be particularly fruitful if/when you decide to pursue counseling. It may suggest something in your shared upbringing that both linked up with domineering spouses with inflexible outlooks.
> 
> It's very "Maury Povich" in nature, but the idea of pawning your wife on your unsuspecting brother is looking better and better. While probably not practical in the real world, it would seem to solve a lot of problems.


My past dating relationships were sparse, as I am shy and did not pursue females much at all, feeling like I was not what they wanted, that I did not have much to offer, that I would fail, that it was vanity and probably wrong/selfish of me. During college, two or three girls became interested in me, but I was not interested in them due to weight and looks (superficial, I know!). I thought they were just being friendly towards me, and I wanted friends. But eventually it dawned on me that they wanted something more. I had to tell them that I was not interested. I never chased any females. I was strictly focused on school. After college, I wanted was lonely, and I wanted a girlfriend. I found one, a girl that went to the same college as me. We dated for a month or two, but she broke it off when I moved for my job by ceasing contact, which was painful for me. I never had sexual intercourse before marriage, which is the same for my wife. 

I noticed something was really wrong during our honeymoon. She cried for hours during it. She was incredibly sad. She was not really interested in sex, even though we tried a few times. After the honeymoon, when we moved away from her family to a different state, she was sad and cried many times. I felt guilty of taking her away from her family. During the first few months of marriage we fought about finances. I was more of a saver then, and she was more of a spender (not out of control). I have since loosened up, which was the right thing, so she feels more free, empowered, happy. 

My brother's soon-to-be-ex is religious, attending the same church as my brother. Yes, you are right - we both selected wives with dogmatic theology, inflexible opinions, hard to please, domineering/controlling. My brother and I have people pleasing personalities, avoiding conflict.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

CynthiaDe said:


> I do think you need to speak to your wife about her crush on your brother before you go to his place and let her know that you no longer want her texting your brother since it seems to be making things worse. You aren't telling her she can't. You are telling her that you are no longer comfortable with her communicating with him by text. Her relationship with him has crossed the line. Furthermore, you want her to redirect all of her romantic feelings towards you as you are doing for her according to your marriage vows. Tell her what you want. If she doesn't comply, then tell her that you will not be held to a higher standard than she is and let her think about what that might mean.
> 
> The only way this is going to turn around is if you lay down some boundaries peacefully and with confidence.


Yes, you are right. I made a note with the right words to say, so I will share this with her. There is so much that we need to fix. I'm feeling overwhelmed and am shedding a few tears. The brother thing is raising all sorts of feelings of inadequacy with me.


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## Marduk

Traits narcissists find attractive in others:



> 1. Above Average Intelligence.
> Emotional stalkers seek very intelligent, really bright, highly skilled, well-trained victims. They look for enthusiasm and passion about their career.
> 
> 2. Good Work Ethic and Personal Accountability.
> Stalkers look for their victims to be very responsible and hard workers, always complying with an excellent achievement of responsibilities assigned.
> 
> 3. Extreme Perfectionists.
> Victims tend to believe nothing they do is ever good enough, forever striving to receive acknowledgement, meanwhile doubting their true worth.
> 
> 4. Dependable and Always Ready to Help Others.
> Victims tend to keep a low profile and have no wish to overshadow friends or work colleagues.
> 
> 5. Underlying Low Self-Esteem and Low Self-Confidence.
> Victims of emotional stalkers crave acknowledgement from their partner, though forever doubting their worthiness of it. This is what makes them vulnerable.


Do you fit that bill? Does your brother?

https://psychcentral.com/blog/5-traits-narcissists-seek-in-victims/

Their advice?



> Stop cruelly criticizing and blaming yourself, and take a deep look at who it is you are in a relationship with. If the person you love fits the above described behavior and traits, *you need to move on with your life sooner than later.*


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## Cynthia

It is normal for young women to be homesick after marriage. I know of a particular woman who just wanted to go home, but she also loved her husband and was committed to him. She confided in a couple of women she was close to and it worked out in a few months. She has now been married almost five years and has a sweet little family whom she dotes on. She and her husband and doing well. All that to say that it's not abnormal for people who go straight from home to marriage to be terribly homesick for a while. That being said, my friend didn't act like a baby and her husband didn't even know she was homesick. Your wife's behavior sounds immature and inconsiderate of you. I'm not saying she should keep her feelings inside, but she should express them in a way that doesn't hurt others.


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## Marduk

> 1. You have something the narcissist wants (money, power, position, lifestyle).
> 
> In a relationship where a narcissist is involved, there's a unique dynamic that comes into play. It starts with a hook — a dream, often one you think is about you but that for the narcissist is all about control.
> 
> Sometimes the narcissist will come across as helpful, then when things don't work out, the table gets turned on you. Once you've caught on, or try to get him to take accountability, the tension only escalates.
> 
> 2. You have a caregiver's nature and a strong need to help others.
> 
> For a time, the relationship seems to be a match made in heaven but it's a fast ticket to hell. In the early stages of the relationship, the generousity and kindness of the caretaker is expressed.
> 
> The giver has someone to dote on, and being the center of the universe works out well for the selfish needs of an emotional vampire. Yet, as the relationship becomes more intimate, the narcissist absorbs the relationship's time, energy and resources while gaining control.
> 
> 3. You have a compassionate, empathetic disposition.
> 
> Narcissists have a reason for everything that happens in their life and nothing is ever their own fault. Of course, you listen and want to help, but if you catch yourself saying, "I was just trying to be nice..." more and more often, and if a part of you feels used, chances are there's an unhealthy dynamic at play.
> 
> In fact, empathetic personalities and caretaker types are prime candidates for emotional vampires.
> 
> 4. You grew up in a dysfunctional environment.
> 
> Your past can make it difficult to spotting boundary violations when they happen, which might lead you to ignore your gut instincts when someone violates your trust. Narcissists don't like boundaries. If a person has an inability to set them, keep them, or accept blame when one has been violated, a predator-type senses the weakness and uses it to their advantage.
> 
> Sometimes, narcissists will perform hero-like acts, but rather than encourage independence or empowerment in their partner, they use their help as a way to create dependency.
> 
> 5. You are lonely and feel a desperate need to find love.
> 
> "Find a need, fill a need" is the narcissist's mantra. A person who has low self-esteem is easier to control than someone with a high sense of self-confidence. At first, the intensity feels good because it can be confused with passion, but a narcissist is incapable of transparency.
> 
> Slowly the intensity wanes and a cold, calculated disposition leaves you wondering what went wrong and striving to find the loving person you thought you knew.
> 
> 6. You willingly accept blame — even for things you didn't do.
> 
> As the relationship deteriorates, narcissists use guilt and blame to "prove" that you are the problem. Empathetic and sensitive individuals are extremely vulnerable to the blame game because of their reflective nature. The narcissist will say, "If you hadn't done ____ or ____, I would have to get so angry."
> 
> By redirecting your attention to what you did "wrong," the narcissist diverts attention away from their own unhealthy behavior.
> 
> 7. You avoid conflict and confrontation.
> 
> Narcissists feed off of fear and use it to create smoke screens and mirrors. Non-confrontational people often are afraid of abandonment, guilt, or anything that may lead to the loss of an important relationship.
> 
> When narcissists react violently they trigger these fears in those who will bend over backward to keep things calm and peaceful. *Counter-intuitively, the more you avoid conflict, the more attractive you become to a narcissist. *



https://www.yourtango.com/2016298433/narcissists-target-people-these-7-character-traits


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## Cynthia

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Yes, you are right. I made a note with the right words to say, so I will share this with her. There is so much that we need to fix. I'm feeling overwhelmed and am shedding a few tears. The brother thing is raising all sorts of feelings of inadequacy with me.


It's okay and normal for you to be feeling upset with all of this sinking in. You have been feeling abused for quite some time, but haven't realized how serious it is, nor have you had anyone to talk to about it. Now you are seeing things more clearly, including your part in all this and want to make changes. But changes take time. Give yourself grace. Breathe. Don't dwell on the negative. Think about what is good, right, and lovely while also facing and dealing with one thing at a time. You are doing fine.


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## Marduk

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Yes, you are right. I made a note with the right words to say, so I will share this with her. There is so much that we need to fix. I'm feeling overwhelmed and am shedding a few tears. The brother thing is raising all sorts of feelings of inadequacy with me.



Here’s what I desperately needed someone to tell me when I was going through it:

You’re a good person that deserves to be loved. You’re not being abused because you deserve to be, you’re being abused because someone wants to control you. You didn’t earn this. And you will survive this. There is a whole world of joy out there waiting for you, and that’s the world that she doesn’t want you to see - because it’s a world without her in it. Just take that first step, right now, to do something to make yourself stronger and happier.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

turnera said:


> You do the exact same thing I do as a result of lack of control over my own life - pick feel-good things or actions to say to yourself that you are your own person, dammit! Except mine is going out to eat Mexican food and drinking wine, lol.
> 
> But I know, I can see it, that once I gain control over my self and my authenticity, I will no longer NEED those things. Why I push myself to change, to stand up for myself, to stop worrying about how HE feels (not my problem).
> 
> I daresay you'll realize the same thing.
> 
> I will add, though, that if you're not even getting decent missionary sex, it's going to be hard to be satisfied. Without going into too much detail, do you do things for each other in the bedroom? Does she orgasm? Ever? I'm betting she said no to that years ago.


I like that talk about controlling yourself and finding authenticity, even though I am apprehensive about what that looks like or means. It is becoming clear to me that I have made her feelings too important in my life, and I should start standing up for myself, remembering that I have normal needs too that are important as well. Yes, we have sexual intimacy a few times per week, and we both climax 95% of the time.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

turnera said:


> There are three best ways to find that stuff out. One is exercising, which you're already doing. One is becoming productive - build something, volunteer somewhere, learn how to do something, join a club for something (I'm thinking of taking my dog to flyball). And one is HAVING FRIENDS. You simply MUST make some, or find some, friends and start having man-on-man time. Please trust me in this. Who are you going to call up today or tomorrow to hang out with?


That was timely. I just read this, and then I saw a few guys that I knew. I joined them for a brief walk and chatted about life. It felt nice, as I got away from my problems for a bit. I have to get myself out there for the male friend thing. I'm rusty. I have a neighbor I might be able to spend some time with, as we have in the past briefly. This is a lead.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

turnera said:


> Every single time I go to therapy (this is my 3rd, cos I never stuck with it in the past to make any real change), every single time, it's about me telling my husband what I think and what I want. And every time I cry, say I can't, say he'll be mad, and so on. Now, she knows he'll never hit me, doesn't even yell anymore, won't hurt me.
> 
> And every time, every single visit, my therapist says "What's the worst that can happen?"
> 
> Because really, dude, what's the worst that can happen?


That's good - I need to say what I think and want. That is authenticity. The worst that can happen is we get into an argument, not talk much, not have sex, be filled with animosity for each other.


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## turnera

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Yes, we have sexual intimacy a few times per week, and we both climax 95% of the time.


Are you sure?


----------



## turnera

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> That's good - I need to say what I think and want. That is authenticity. The worst that can happen is we get into an argument, not talk much, not have sex, be filled with animosity for each other.


Right. It's not life threatening. It's not job ending. It's not health-defining. It's just two people not getting along. And meantime, you'll be learning who you are, not tiptoeing around, not lying to her and yourself, not sneaking off to jerk off to porn cos you can't be yourself.


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## Cynthia

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> That's good - I need to say what I think and want. That is authenticity. The worst that can happen is we get into an argument, not talk much, not have sex, be filled with animosity for each other.


You don't have to participate in arguments or allow yourself to be filled with animosity. These are personal choices. Learn how to state your position and let her know that she is free to share her point of view as well, but everything stops when love and respect stop. You can lead this change. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

CynthiaDe said:


> You don't have to participate in arguments or allow yourself to be filled with animosity. These are personal choices. Learn how to state your position and let her know that she is free to share her point of view as well, but everything stops when love and respect stop. You can lead this change.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I wish I could like this twice.

Your truth does not need her approval or permission.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

DIGB:

I posted this on my bathroom mirror in 2014. It is a mish-mash of quotes from NMMNG as well as posters from this site. When I put them up initially, my wife did not like them...at all.

I took this photo tonight...yes, tonight. Five years later...it is STILL on my mirror.

Why? 

So I don't return to the approval seeking, nice-guy behavior of my past.

So I remember to love myself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable.

So I remember to measure my personal success with MY measuring tools...not hers.

Funny, my wife's anger at the time...yet here we are...in a far better place... Had I listened to her, they would have been taken down already. Yet those fundamentals were the basis for our marriage to come back from the brink. 

Imagine that...









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## DoesItGetBetter?

Wow - I am blown away by the support and advice by you all. Some things are starting to sink in, and I am learning, becoming more aware. I thank you all greatly! 

I spoke with my wife last night, and I made two boundaries that she agreed to: 

1) She will stop emailing/texting/calling my brother, because she admitted to "having feelings" for him. If she wants to share something with him, then she agreed that the message would go through me. I have inadequacy issues, especially comparing myself to him. It has been bugging me subconsciously for years - his better grades, my parents possibly favoring him, his better earning job, his better SAT/College. I asked her to transfer the feelings that she has about him towards me. 

2) I will have access to our home computer. She gave me the password, so I can now login. I shared how much I love her, how I see that her boundary is that I will not use porn. I agreed to respect that boundary. I told her how my nature is to watch it and admire other women that I see in life. I see how this hurts her and makes her feel inadequate. I apologized for my contribution to her pain here. I told her my desire to be a person of integrity, honesty, transparency, which would help us be real with each, deepen our relationship. I am going to start sharing some insights into me. For example, I saw a show last night where the female turned me on, and I shared this with her, following with how it is fake/shallow, how I would rather be with my wife instead. 

We communicated so much more throughout the night:
1) How we need to start expressing clearly our wants to each other.
2) How we need to start expressing our feelings to each other, that feelings are fleeting and not bad/shameful things that we should use to fight each other. 
3) How we both desire our marriage to deepen in richness and happiness. 
4) How we both have needs, and that is normal, and we want each other to meet each other’s needs. 
5) How our marriage has been subpar for many years, and we need to improve it to help our own happiness. 
6) How we want to have respect for each other - no more raised voices, yelling, name-calling, hurtful comments, silent treatment, withholding sex. 
7) How I am trying to find happiness, to view myself as worthy of respect, to put my needs as important, not just the needs of others, that my pleasure is important as well, which will result in me feeling less resentful, less bottled-up rage, less angry inside.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

turnera said:


> Are you sure?


Haha, yes! I don't feel comfortable sharing the details. On the rare occasion when she does not climax, then she makes it clearly known to me that she just could not achieve it. No one is to blame when it happens, just natural body issues.


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## farsidejunky

Okay, so you put her on notice.

Now it is time to STOP talking and START doing.

Communicate things of importance one time, and one time only. After that, let your actions speak for you.

Here is an example of how that looks:

My wife gets overwhelmed periodically...sometimes for a couple of months. When she does, she stops meeting my needs. The first few times it happened, I brought it to her attention (mistake to do more than once). 

Nothing changed. Resentment built in me.

So then I began ceasing the meeting of her needs when she does this. I started by not helping her feed her dogs. I didn't say anything...I simply just stopped doing it. She was PISSED.

Her: Why didn't you feed the dogs?!?

Me: It's not really working for me any more. 

Her: But you do it most weekday mornings.

Me: (silence, I already stated my truth)

Her: Are you going to do it tomorrow?

Me: No.

Her, exasperated: Why not?!?

Me, calmly: If you want more from me, you can start by doing more for me.

Her, angry: So this is about sex. I don't agree with tit for tat.

Me: If you want me to see things from your perspective, you can start by seeing them from mine.

Now when she begins to get selfish again, I just simply stop. I say nothing to her except that one line:

If you want more from me, you can start by doing more for me. 

One time only, DIGB. Last night was your one time. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Diana7

AliceA said:


> I'm sorry to jump in here, but I have gathered from your posts that your wife has a rather traditional view of marriage where she expects you to be the leader in the household. In regards to asking her for access to the computer, I do not think your wife would respect this approach.
> 
> Personally, I prefer to see a marriage as an equal partnership, and even with this view, I would not be asking for access to my computer, I would be stating that this is what was going to happen. While I will accept and consider reasonable requests, I will not accept being treated like a child.
> 
> She has made a reasonable request that you stop using porn. From that point it was up to you to stop, not up to her to force it.
> 
> You seem cowed because of her temper. There is a point where you will need to start asserting yourself more, as other people have already said.
> 
> I have to wonder if part of your loss of faith in your religion is because you do not feel like you fit the mould of the traditional patriarch. Your wife seems to have become the head of the household despite her religion that says she should be subservient. How does she reconcile this? Maybe feeling like she has to be the boss (I'm not saying this is fair, if that's what she feels) and take control is what is really getting under her skin. I might be totally off base since I'm not religious myself.


I think that for a Christian lady married to a non Christian man this is hard as he can never be the head of the home spiritually and that's so important.


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## Diana7

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Wow - I am blown away by the support and advice by you all. Some things are starting to sink in, and I am learning, becoming more aware. I thank you all greatly!
> 
> I spoke with my wife last night, and I made two boundaries that she agreed to:
> 
> 1) She will stop emailing/texting/calling my brother, because she admitted to "having feelings" for him. If she wants to share something with him, then she agreed that the message would go through me. I have inadequacy issues, especially comparing myself to him. It has been bugging me subconsciously for years - his better grades, my parents possibly favoring him, his better earning job, his better SAT/College. I asked her to transfer the feelings that she has about him towards me.
> 
> 2) I will have access to our home computer. She gave me the password, so I can now login. I shared how much I love her, how I see that her boundary is that I will not use porn. I agreed to respect that boundary. I told her how my nature is to watch it and admire other women that I see in life. I see how this hurts her and makes her feel inadequate. I apologized for my contribution to her pain here. I told her my desire to be a person of integrity, honesty, transparency, which would help us be real with each, deepen our relationship. I am going to start sharing some insights into me. For example, I saw a show last night where the female turned me on, and I shared this with her, following with how it is fake/shallow, how I would rather be with my wife instead.
> 
> We communicated so much more throughout the night:
> 1) How we need to start expressing clearly our wants to each other.
> 2) How we need to start expressing our feelings to each other, that feelings are fleeting and not bad/shameful things that we should use to fight each other.
> 3) How we both desire our marriage to deepen in richness and happiness.
> 4) How we both have needs, and that is normal, and we want each other to meet each other’s needs.
> 5) How our marriage has been subpar for many years, and we need to improve it to help our own happiness.
> 6) How we want to have respect for each other - no more raised voices, yelling, name-calling, hurtful comments, silent treatment, withholding sex.
> 7) How I am trying to find happiness, to view myself as worthy of respect, to put my needs as important, not just the needs of others, that my pleasure is important as well, which will result in me feeling less resentful, less bottled-up rage, less angry inside.


Sound positive but just a thought, its really not your 'nature' to look at porn, its what you want to do. OH and do you really need to tell her every time you see a women you fancy?? Probably not wise. :|


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## turnera

Couple things. FSJ, I can't believe it's been 5 years! You're one of the wisest people on this forum now. 

You're walking a fine line telling your wife you enjoy looking at women but will no longer do so. Men look at women. It's how men are wired. To pretend to NOT be wired that way is disingenuous and a lie - and you WILL get caught if you set up some ridiculous statement that you'll never look at another woman again. So be very careful how you discuss this. 

If she doesn't like this, point this out to her: Ask any many to describe his wife and the first words will almost always be "she's beautiful." Ask any woman about her husband and she'll say something like he takes care of me, he's loving, he's a good man. Men are visual creatures; it's how we procreated the species in caveman days - they picked the best looking females to mate with, while women picked the strongest men to mate with (to stay alive). 

So while it's good that you're now aware and making an effort, don't set yourself up for failure. Don't go moaning 'oh, I'm weak and shallow.' No. You're a man. 

And FSJ is right. You said your piece. Now ACT. What plans have you made to hang out with some friend this weekend?


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## DoesItGetBetter?

turnera said:


> You're walking a fine line telling your wife you enjoy looking at women but will no longer do so. Men look at women. It's how men are wired. To pretend to NOT be wired that way is disingenuous and a lie - and you WILL get caught if you set up some ridiculous statement that you'll never look at another woman again. So be very careful how you discuss this.


You are spot on - this is exactly the problem that I have had rolling around in my mind for a long time without being able to articulate it. Ever since I set two boundaries with my wife last night, I have been sharing everything I can with her trying to be transparent, although not talking about my past failings with porn. My concern right now is that she might not like hearing what is going through my mind, my finding other women attractive. I'm caught between transparency with my wife and being a male with a high sex drive and awareness of other women. I told her a few times today already that I found a couple coworkers attractive and how I fled the scene! I have succeeded so far, but what happens if I stare at one with lust in my heart?

I took a walk with some guy friends yesterday. I will be at my brother's house this weekend, so he and I will get some guy time, which will be good.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

Update - my wife is pleased with my texts about finding some coworkers pretty but avoiding them like the plague. She assumed correctly that in the past I would have viewed attractive woman freely, but she knows now that I am actively fighting against this. I am still worried about what happens if I do stare, though. If I do, I probably should tell her, since I am striving for transparency, right?


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## farsidejunky

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Update - my wife is pleased with my texts about finding some coworkers pretty but avoiding them like the plague. She assumed correctly that in the past I would have viewed attractive woman freely, but she knows now that I am actively fighting against this. I am still worried about what happens if I do stare, though. If I do, I probably should tell her, since I am striving for transparency, right?


Don't stare.

Stop telling her every time. 

Look, man. Let's make this a workplace analogy. When you are in charge at work, do you take things to your subordinates for their opinion all of the time? Or only things when they clearly have expertise? 

How about as a subordinate? You submit things for approval...which is exactly what you are doing EVERY SINGLE TIME you go to her with something.

"Wife, Jesus understood the nature of man, and that sin begins in the heart. Just know I am doing my best to work against it." 

Then don't bring it up again. She has no need for a play-by-play.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

And FFS, stop worrying about if it pleases your wife.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Cynthia

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I am going to start sharing some insights into me. For example, I saw a show last night where the female turned me on, and I shared this with her, following with how it is fake/shallow, how I would rather be with my wife instead.


I really don’t think it’s a good idea to tell your wife about other women who “turn me on.” She doesn’t need to know every little detail of your thinking. Telling her that you would much rather be with her is fine, but how would you feel if she started telling you about men who “turn her on?” I know you didn’t like what she had to say about your brother and your response was to tell her to give you those feelings, which was good.

Your list was good. Did you two come up with that together or was that only your side of it? It sounds like she received it well. Like Farsidejunky said, you don’t need to keep reiterating these boundaries. Consider writing them down and putting them on your mirror like Farside did. This would be helpful for both you and your wife. Maybe even going over them once a month to see how you are both doing on the list. It’s good to check in with your spouse on things are going and how you can each do better for the marriage, of course, encouraging one another in what you are doing right as well, rather than being critical.



Diana7 said:


> I think that for a Christian lady married to a non Christian man this is hard as he can never be the head of the home spiritually and that's so important.


Not all Christians see it this way. Not to take this on a rabbit trail, I’ll quickly explain.
The idea that the husband is the head of the family is a distortion of the tribal system that was used to keep the nation of Israel together. The necessity for this ended when Jesus completed his mission. This is confused with Ephesians 5:23 which calls the man the head of the wife, which is illustrating and entirely different concept. 
This is another example of how this marriage can be improved by the wife better understanding the Bible and what it means to her marriage.


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## Cynthia

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Update - my wife is pleased with my texts about finding some coworkers pretty but avoiding them like the plague. She assumed correctly that in the past I would have viewed attractive woman freely, but she knows now that I am actively fighting against this. I am still worried about what happens if I do stare, though. If I do, I probably should tell her, since I am striving for transparency, right?


You stare at women? Your wife isn't the only one who doesn't appreciate this.

When you see a beautiful woman, rather than staring, turn your eyes elsewhere and think about something completely unrelated to the woman. Trying not to do it makes it more difficult to stop, because in thinking about not doing something, you are thinking about the thing you are trying not to think about. Change your perspective and things will be easier on you.


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## farsidejunky

And thanks, @turnera. There's a handful of folks that were instrumental in helping me from the very beginning. You are right at the top of that list.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Cynthia

farsidejunky said:


> .


If you have time, could you provide a full picture of this? I am interested in what the entire thing says and there are a few gaps. I am interested in understanding it better. For example, the first message in its entirety and what is the end of the last line?


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## farsidejunky

CynthiaDe said:


> If you have time, could you provide a full picture of this? I am interested in what the entire thing says and there are a few gaps. I am interested in understanding it better. For example, the first message in its entirety and what is the end of the last line?


I had no idea how hard it was to do this without taking a selfie at the same time! 

Here you go. I'm willing to bet @Deejo recognizes a few of these. At least two of them are his direct quotes.









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Cynthia

@farsidejunky, Thank you.

Do you mind if I type them out and post them in this thread to make it easier for people to read them?


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## farsidejunky

If you would like to, by all means.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Deejo

farsidejunky said:


> I had no idea how hard it was to do this without taking a selfie at the same time!
> 
> Here you go. I'm willing to bet @Deejo recognizes a few of these. At least two of them are his direct quotes.
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Damn man, your fingernails are impeccable! (I'm married to a salon owner. I always find myself looking at my claws now.)

Cripes, it took me a few reads, but yes I remember those. Thanks for posting that ... we can all use those kinds of reminders every once in a while.

You know, I gave my copy of "No More Mr. Nice Guy" to a work colleague about 3 years ago. He came up to me 2 days ago and handed it back. "Thanks for letting me hang onto this, I don't need it any more." He's getting married for the first time at age 37. He used to pick my brain about dating and relationships all of the time ... before they moved his team to another floor.

I need to revisit some of those books. NMMNG, Hold Onto Your NUTS, etc.


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## farsidejunky

Deejo said:


> Damn man, your fingernails are impeccable! (I'm married to a salon owner. I always find myself looking at my claws now.)
> 
> 
> 
> Cripes, it took me a few reads, but yes I remember those. Thanks for posting that ... we can all use those kinds of reminders every once in a while.
> 
> 
> 
> You know, I gave my copy of "No More Mr. Nice Guy" to a work colleague about 3 years ago. He came up to me 2 days ago and handed it back. "Thanks for letting me hang onto this, I don't need it any more." He's getting married for the first time at age 37. He used to pick my brain about dating and relationships all of the time ... before they moved his team to another floor.
> 
> 
> 
> I need to revisit some of those books. NMMNG, Hold Onto Your NUTS, etc.


Of all the things I expected you might say, an observation about my nails was not one of them.

Sorry for the thread jack, DIGB.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## anchorwatch

farsidejunky said:


> DIGB:
> 
> I posted this on my bathroom mirror in 2014. It is a mish-mash of quotes from NMMNG as well as posters from this site. When I put them up initially, my wife did not like them...at all.
> 
> I took this photo tonight...yes, tonight. Five years later...it is STILL on my mirror.
> 
> Why?
> 
> So I don't return to the approval seeking, nice-guy behavior of my past.
> 
> So I remember to love myself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable.
> 
> So I remember to measure my personal success with MY measuring tools...not hers.
> 
> Funny, my wife's anger at the time...yet here we are...in a far better place... Had I listened to her, they would have been taken down already. Yet those fundamentals were the basis for our marriage to come back from the brink.
> 
> Imagine that...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I love it! 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Betrayedone

Unhappily married for 9 years beats unhappily married for 24 years......So you've got that going' for you........Consider yourself lucky......


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## turnera

Deejo said:


> Damn man, your fingernails are impeccable! (I'm married to a salon owner. I always find myself looking at my claws now.)
> 
> Cripes, it took me a few reads, but yes I remember those. Thanks for posting that ... we can all use those kinds of reminders every once in a while.
> 
> You know, I gave my copy of "No More Mr. Nice Guy" to a work colleague about 3 years ago. He came up to me 2 days ago and handed it back. "Thanks for letting me hang onto this, I don't need it any more." He's getting married for the first time at age 37. He used to pick my brain about dating and relationships all of the time ... before they moved his team to another floor.
> 
> I need to revisit some of those books. NMMNG, Hold Onto Your NUTS, etc.


You know what else would be good for OP to read? His Needs Her Needs. It's my go-to book for 'balance.' You know, to make sure BOTH of you are getting your needs met. It's a great book for you both to read together.


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## turnera

farsidejunky said:


> Of all the things I expected you might say, an observation about my nails was not one of them.
> 
> Sorry for the thread jack, DIGB.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


It's funny, cos I noticed your fingers, too, lol. Thought how nice they looked.


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## Marduk

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Update - my wife is pleased with my texts about finding some coworkers pretty but avoiding them like the plague. She assumed correctly that in the past I would have viewed attractive woman freely, but she knows now that I am actively fighting against this. I am still worried about what happens if I do stare, though. If I do, I probably should tell her, since I am striving for transparency, right?



You need to looking for approval from her. For your thoughts, for your decisions, for your actions. For anything.

Integrity is what you do when nobody is looking. You want integrity? Start thinking like that.


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## Marduk

Deejo said:


> Damn man, your fingernails are impeccable! (I'm married to a salon owner. I always find myself looking at my claws now.)
> 
> 
> 
> Cripes, it took me a few reads, but yes I remember those. Thanks for posting that ... we can all use those kinds of reminders every once in a while.
> 
> 
> 
> You know, I gave my copy of "No More Mr. Nice Guy" to a work colleague about 3 years ago. He came up to me 2 days ago and handed it back. "Thanks for letting me hang onto this, I don't need it any more." He's getting married for the first time at age 37. He used to pick my brain about dating and relationships all of the time ... before they moved his team to another floor.
> 
> 
> 
> I need to revisit some of those books. NMMNG, Hold Onto Your NUTS, etc.



Hagakure has gotten a lot of mileage for me. Not everyone’s cup of tea, to be sure, but this one got me through many of my wife’s inevitable emotional storms:

“There is something to be learned from a rainstorm. When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run quickly along the road. But doing such things as passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you will still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to everything.” 
― Tsunetomo Yamamoto, The Hagakure: A code to the way of samurai

When I think of that when she’s undergoing fits of anger, sadness, or even just treating me as an emotional punching bag (PTSD sucks), I remember not to try to hide from it. Or placate her. Or do anything, really. Her emotions are like the weather, not in the sense that they’re random, just in the sense that they are sometimes inexplicable, and more often than not have nothing to do with me.

There is no need to hide from the weather. Once you’ve resolved yourself that getting wet is OK, you don’t run from it any more. You can see the storm for what it is, and not lose your wits trying to hide from it. And that takes away much of the power of the storm.

And it leaves you free to act with wisdom.


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## alte Dame

I skipped ahead a bit here, so please disregard my comment if it duplicates what has already been said.

I think, given your description of your wife's background, that she has very narrow experience and thus very narrow coping mechanisms.

When your spiritual beliefs evolved and began to run counter to hers, she reacted defensively. She felt a detachment, an estrangement. You became an opponent of sorts instead of the spiritual soulmate.

She then desperately tried to bring you back to her by making you 'follow her rules.' If you are like her in these other respects, she hoped, then perhaps the detachment wouldn't be permanent and total.

Right now, you are not compatible and she is dancing as fast as she can to try to make you a couple rather than roommates with benefits. I don't think she has the internal tools, though, to know what to do to feel emotionally intimate with a man who no longer shares her world view.

Counseling would help, but I sense that she would resist unless the aim was to get you back in the fold. Like the others, I think you two have grown into incompatibility, which is very hard, but I don't think you should sacrifice your life to it, so either counseling and a new approach or facing the fact that you two don't suit.


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## Cynthia

I think it's premature to determine that you are permanently incompatible when you have so much personal growth to accomplish and to learn how to set boundaries and have a healthy relationship. It seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I think you are doing a good job of telling her that the adversarial attitude, the yelling, etc., has got to stop immediately and are learning ways to put and end to it if it does happen. If she can't learn to control that, there are other questions, such as the mental and emotional health of children being brought up in those conditions. Do you really want to leave your children in her 100% custody so she can teach them her ways? Or do you want at least 50% custody so you can allow them to participate in your personal growth while they learn how to be people of integrity and to be kind to one another rather than being filled with anger and anxiety?


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## Cynthia

This is @farsidejunky 's list:

1.
I want to care for a woman. I want to love a woman and I want to support a woman. She can vent, she can cry, she can yell.
She doesn’t get to sidestep her poor choices or inability to regulate on me…because she thinks she can. Not ever.
You can say that this is my own ego, pride, or fear. I say it is teaching my partner the valuable lesson that my love is indeed a well, and if you consistently drink it dry without replenishing it, you’re eventually going to haul up an empty bucket. And if you can’t show any concern for that eventually, I’m not going to care about watching you go thirsty.

2.
Some exceptionally smart poster around here cautioned you about the journey of self improvement and which of the two mirrors you are judging your growth and improvement upon; hers, not yours. 
Using hers wills sink you…. every time. 
You are measuring the effectiveness of your change upon how responsive she is. 
And at least in my reading, she consciously or otherwise decides to shatter the mirror every once in a while…. And that is when she REALLY gets to see who you are.
The man who is enjoying his life for himself, in which he wants her to share and participate.
Or the little boy who is trying to ‘behave’ so the object of his affection will reward him.

3.
I want to be honorable. 
I want to be worthy.
For the benefit of my partner.
But not because of her.
Because of me.
And if I deem she isn’t worthy of my best, then she won’t remain my partner.
I see no need to ever invest myself in ‘winning’ the heart of a woman ever again.
It’s a fool’s errand.
That probably sounds like sour apples.
It isn’t.
I think of it as self-awareness.
For the woman that is worthy of my best, I would lay down my life.

4.
I am loveable just as I am.
I am perfectly imperfect.
It is okay to pursue my needs.
People love and accept me just as I am.
It is OK to be human and make mistakes.
I am the only person I have to please.
No matter what happens, I will handle it.
It is okay to communicate my feelings.
Choices should not be made out of fear.
Do not sugar coat the truth, nor fear the repercussions.


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## Betrayedone

Beats unhappily married 24 years...........Count your blessings.......


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