# How do I talk to my wife about seeking therapy for BPD?



## shutterbug78 (May 6, 2013)

I've looked at the symptoms of BPD and I'm sure my wife has it. I'm growing so tired of walking on eggshells. for a time I thought her behavior was my fault and I thought I was the worst husband in the world. I almost thought of divorcing her so I could make her happy since nothing I ever did seemed to keep her happy. It seemed like my very identity offended her and still does.

When I first realized I was not to be blamed for her behavior I thought that she was just naturally abusive. Then I started googling her behaviors and found many references to Borderline Personality Disorder. I've learned that if she's properly diagnosed and willingly submits to treatment she can improve.

However, I just don't know how to approach her. She does not take well to any perceived criticisms. the last time she thought I criticized her she was mad at me for a week.

Any Advice?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

There is a member named Uptown who has been in your shoes and generously offers help for spouses dealing with BPD.

You seem to have a positive attitude and lots of hope for mental to return. While it is a possibility, people with BPD present a therapeutic paradox. The very nature of BPD means that they are incapable of accepting blame. One cannot grow without accepting blame and learning from mistakes. So instead, the loved ones who deal with the BPD person, must ever walk on egg shells and ever cope with being painted black for being evil, white for being good, or red for their rage. It will never be their fault, their mistake, their responsibility, but always yours.

Uptown should be along shortly, he's generally very good at finding posts that require his expertise.

Good luck.


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## notperfectanymore (Mar 1, 2012)

Rule #1...don't tell her you think she has it...trust me . Force her to get help for her "issues" and let a professional diagnose her. Begin taking care of yourself. The above poster is correct, Uptown will have MUCH good info for you..meanwhile, for your own sanity (you cannot fix her, she must do this herself) head over to Borderline Personality Disorder - Support group for families and relationship partners Those people are a saving grace for those of us dealing with BPD peeps...please take care of YOURSELF! That is most important here, I promise


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

People with BPD can eventually learn to face themselves and take responsibility, but there's always going to be some sensitivity to blame or criticism, perceived or otherwise. A lot of things can improve with DBT therapy, though, and your BPD person can learn how to interact with you in a way more approaching "normal". Takes a lot of strength and endurance for someone with BPD to stop running from themselves and fight back (against the disorder). I have BPD and am in treatment right now. Those close to me have seen marked improvements in me. (I can actually now say things like, "I'm sorry, I was wrong," and, "You're right, that was definitely my fault.") Just know that while it's hard, it's not hopeless. But how much hope there might be really depends on your person with BPD. If she is completely unaware, there's a LONG road ahead of you. Seriously.

The other posters are right about Uptown. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## shutterbug78 (May 6, 2013)

Thanks Soulpotato. You have come along way. The only time my wife has apologized and admitted she was wrong it involved a week of sleeping on the couch and could shoulder treatment before that.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Sure thing, SB.  (Thank you!) If I can help, let me know. I know we BPDers can drive nons totally crazy in a hot minute (and like you've noticed, make you feel like it's all you). 

I wanted to ask you, can you give an example of an argument with your wife from start to finish?

I'm sorry to hear that she is so loath to apologize to you or admit that she has a part in any wrongdoing.  Unfortunately, it's familiar territory. You know by now how avoidant and creative a BPD person can be when it comes to dodging shame and guilt.

As someone else said, coming straight out and saying to her, "You have BPD, go get therapy," will likely result in a huge explosion and total lockdown on your wife's part. (Because that is in effect saying to your wife that she is defective/broken/unlovable, which would be one of her great fears. If she owns that, Bad Things Happen.) Throughout my life, several people have done just that to me, and they were each on the receiving end of some intense rage from me. 

The hardest part about getting your wife to therapy is that she has to really commit and be involved, and it has to be the right kind of therapy (DBT) with the right therapist for her (the personality and manner of the therapist do matter a lot). This is tough, because those of us with BPD try to avoid therapy like the plague, because if we go to therapy, that means we're admitting that there's something wrong with us. Which we try to avoid at all costs. It's tough getting to the point of saying, "There's something wrong with me that I can't fix myself."


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## shutterbug78 (May 6, 2013)

I really stopped arguing a while ago. I pick my battles more carefully now. mostvof the time when I openly disagree with her she gets emotional and accuses me of thinking she's stupid and that I'm so much smarter. or last . week it was warm before she went to bed. I wasn't sleepy yet so I stayed up. the air didn't turn off when she had hoped and she came back downstairs to turn the AC off. she chewed me out for five minutes all but calling me stupid for not guessing I would need to turn off the AC. she made me sleep on the couch that night. most of her fits of temper are usually at things that she has done but won't own up to it. I know many of her triggers but in order to not pull them I need to act like someone I'm not.


UOTE=soulpotato;1673018]Sure thing, SB.  (Thank you!) If I can help, let me know. I know we BPDers can drive nons totally crazy in a hot minute (and like you've noticed, make you feel like it's all you). 

I wanted to ask you, can you give an example of an argument with your wife from start to finish?

I'm sorry to hear that she is so loath to apologize to you or admit that she has a part in any wrongdoing.  Unfortunately, it's familiar territory. You know by now how avoidant and creative a BPD person can be when it comes to dodging shame and guilt.

As someone else said, coming straight out and saying to her, "You have BPD, go get therapy," will likely result in a huge explosion and total lockdown on your wife's part. (Because that is in effect saying to your wife that she is defective/broken/unlovable, which would be one of her great fears. If she owns that, Bad Things Happen.) Throughout my life, several people have done just that to me, and they were each on the receiving end of some intense rage from me. 

The hardest part about getting your wife to therapy is that she has to really commit and be involved, and it has to be the right kind of therapy (DBT) with the right therapist for her (the personality and manner of the therapist do matter a lot). This is tough, because those of us with BPD try to avoid therapy like the plague, because if we go to therapy, that means we're admitting that there's something wrong with us. Which we try to avoid at all costs. It's tough getting to the point of saying, "There's something wrong with me that I can't fix myself."[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

She's not in prison, so she can control her temper. She apparently doesn't scream at and dog cuss the police. If she works, she doesn't act insane at work. She chooses to not control her temper around you...because you tolerate it. Even if she's got BPD, establish the minimum level of disrespect you will tolerate and hold her to it.


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## shutterbug78 (May 6, 2013)

I'm not the only one she yells at. I'm just the most common recipient.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

shutterbug78 said:


> I'm not the only one she yells at. I'm just the most common recipient.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That makes sense. You're close to her, after all. I agree that boundaries can help you with her behavior (though she'll probably fight you on any "restrictions" that she's unused to).


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

shutterbug78 said:


> I really stopped arguing a while ago. I pick my battles more carefully now. mostvof the time when I openly disagree with her she gets emotional and accuses me of thinking she's stupid and that I'm so much smarter. or last . week it was warm before she went to bed. I wasn't sleepy yet so I stayed up. the air didn't turn off when she had hoped and she came back downstairs to turn the AC off. she chewed me out for five minutes all but calling me stupid for not guessing I would need to turn off the AC. she made me sleep on the couch that night. most of her fits of temper are usually at things that she has done but won't own up to it. I know many of her triggers but in order to not pull them I need to act like someone I'm not.


I'm sure she does get upset when you disagree with her. That means (in her mind) that you're telling her that she's wrong, and that's difficult for her to tolerate. (But then, a lot is difficult for her to tolerate, and that makes your life really unpleasant, too. After all, it's your fault when she's unhappy or uncomfortable, right?) Unfortunately, if you avoid conflict or stop resisting, she's just going to get worse. She'll run all over your boundaries. The accusations are usually dumping, deflection, or a way of voicing fears, depending on the situation. The fact that she blames and punishes you for even things like the A/C being on (because you couldn't psychically pick up on her desire for it to turn off) sounds like she's pretty on edge (anger close to the surface, not much control), and pretty high in irrationality (there are levels of irrationality, and one BPDer might be less irrational than the next). 

If you always avoid everything that triggers her, that's enabling, too. You don't want to end up having everything only on her terms. She has to start learning how to cope and regulate herself, but she's going to need a professional's help to do that.

At this point, I suppose you could try a combination of boundaries and validation, but both can be difficult to do "properly" or to even know when you are doing them properly. I've got at least one book that tells people to continue their validating speeches while the BPDer in question is screaming at them and not being responsive for the first what, 5 minutes. Who but a therapist would do that? I don't know.

I think she'll be a tough nut to crack, frankly. Are you sure you want to go along for the ride?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

You can't tell her to get help. Omigosh. Bad idea.

You CAN, however, make boundaries for yourself around her and KEEP them. Train her how to treat you. She'll blow up and all of that until she sees you mean business. When she starts up on shet, just tell her she can't talk to you that way and that you'll talk when she calms down. and WALK AWAY. If she gets crazy, call the cops. Seriously. I'm so sick of people allowing themselves to be abused.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> She's not in prison, so she can control her temper. She apparently doesn't scream at and dog cuss the police. If she works, she doesn't act insane at work. She chooses to not control her temper around you...because you tolerate it. Even if she's got BPD, establish the minimum level of disrespect you will tolerate and hold her to it.


People with BPD are going to do their worst acting out with the people they're close to or familiar with, especially those who are "high-functioning". She might be able to control her temper with the police because she's not threatened by them in the ways that count, likewise at work. Although there are those BPDers who don't even have that level of control and do end up incarcerated.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Shutter, I agree with the advice given to you by the other respondents. As an initial matter, I believe MC likely would be a total waste of time if your W is a BPDer (i.e., has most BPD traits at a strong level). If so, her issues are far more serious than a simple lack of communication skills. 

Until those underlying problems are addressed, marriage counseling likely will be useless. Moreover, MC can make matters worse. Teaching a BPDer better communication skills will make her better at manipulation but do nothing to address the thought distortions, lack of trust, emotional instability, anger, and immaturity.

As to IC, that likely will not work either. Granted, there are many excellent treatment programs available nationwide. And, granted, those programs hold out great promise for BPDers who -- like SoulPotato -- have sufficient self awareness to make their way to forums like this. But, sadly, it is rare for a BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength required to stay in such programs. 

Therapist Shari Schreiber says you have a better chance flying to the moon strapped to a banana than ever seeing a BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. Although Schreiber is exaggerating to make a point, her point is not far from the mark. I would be surprised if as many as 1 out of 100 BPDers ever manage to remain in therapy long enough to make a difference.

Even when a BPDer does agree to stay in weekly therapy -- as my exW did for 15 years with six different psychologists -- you likely will end up with an enormous bill while she spends the time playing mind games with the psychologists. My exW, for example, got worse instead of better. As the years went by, she became increasingly resentful of my inability to make her happy -- and increasingly fearful of abandonment as she saw her body aging.

Another problem you will face, if she does agree to staying in therapy, is trying to figure out if she is making any ACTUAL progress. _How would you know?_ After all, BPDers routinely show enormous improvement every two or three weeks -- right before splitting you black all over again. Unstable people typically are always "improving" dramatically, right before slipping back to the dark side of the cycle. They are always improving in the same way that many smokers are always quitting -- doing so with great fanfare every few weeks.

It therefore can be very difficult to see if any small, marginal improvements are occurring, given that it will take several years before IC will make a substantial difference -- assuming she is working hard in therapy. The temptation, then, is to fool yourself into believing -- as I did -- she is getting better.

On top of that, when BPD is involved, it is very unlikely your W's psychologist will tell you the name of her disorder, even if she has full-blown BPD. Psychologists and other therapists generally are loath to tell the BPDer -- much less her spouse -- that she has BPD. 

In my exW's case, for example, I spent a small fortune taking her to six different psychologists in weekly visits for 15 years. Significantly, NONE of them ever mentioned the word "BPD." Indeed, the last psychologist -- whom my exW saw weekly for five years -- told me that she "did not find labels useful" every time I asked for a diagnosis. At the end of the five years, when I was angry and insisting on a diagnosis, she grudgingly conceded that my exW has "a thought disorder" -- which, of course, is exactly what BPD is.

This practice of routinely withholding the BPD diagnosis from the client and her family is well known both inside and outside the psychiatric community -- as I explain in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-official-im-getting-divorced.html#post811909. I therefore suggest that, if you do persuade your W to see an IC, you obtain a second opinion from YOUR OWN psychologist whom you see all by yourself for a visit or two. 

Remember, your W's therapist is NOT YOUR FRIEND. Relying on her therapist for advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her attorney for advice during the divorce. It is important that you obtain candid advice from a professional who is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not hers. It therefore is important, when BPD is involved, to see a psychologist who has not seen or treated her.

As to resources, I agree with NotPerfect that the BPDfamily.com website likely will be of great benefit to you. It is the largest and most active forum I've found that is devoted to the abused partners and family members of BPDers. I therefore suggest that you start participating (or at least lurking) there. Of the 8 message boards, the ones that likely will help you the most are the "Staying" board and "Leaving" board. 

And, while you're there, I suggest you read their 15 papers at the "Articles" page. My favorite is article 9 at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. But the other articles are good too. Nearly all are written by professionals.

Finally, if you would like to read more about what it is like to live with a BPDer, I suggest you check out my post here on TAM at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. It also provides two book suggestions at the end.


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## shutterbug78 (May 6, 2013)

Wow uptown, Your "list from hell" sounds like my life. Also read half of those articles. The one about the evolution of a relationship with someone with BPD sounds exactly like my courtship/marriage with my wife. I can list very similar things like you:

1. She can't handle any opinion that is different than hers. Whenever I do openly disagree with her she either acts like I've hurt or offended her and she says I think she's stupid or that I think I'm superior.
2. She can't handle criticism from anybody. especially me. Usually when someone criticizes her she instantly vilifies that person. I've seen her break off more friendships because of this than anything else.
3. For some reason she can't handle it when other people have success or good fortune. She acts like it takes something from her personally. For example we don't have kids and we've had a miscarriage. All of her former friends have had kids and she accuses them of being insensitive to her. Also even one week last summer I decided to take a week off and she couldn't. I did stuff around the house went on some hikes and stuff like that. She was so mad at me by the end of the week because she couldn't take the week off. Another thing. With my job I can get a new smartphone every year. I've stopped taking advantage of it because last year she resented me having a better phone than her.
4. She dishes out sarcasm and teasing like it was her second language but when people do the same with her she gets offended.
5. She always has to be right. No matter what. Sometimes I'll verbally wonder something and she'll tell me her version of the answer. If I continue to look it up she gets offended.
6. She's extremely competitive. When she loses she thinks the winner purposely meant to hurt her feelings.
7. She says I'm not affectionate enough. but when I try to be more affectionate she says I'm crowding her.
8. She gets mad when I don't "pull my weight" around the house. I work three times more hours than she does but all she does when I'm at work is sit around playing phone games or go online. and my "half" of the housework is more involved than her "half." Whenever she does part of my "half" I hear about it for the next week.
9. Whenever she does anything that I want us to do that she's not too interested in she never really lets me live it down. For example its been more than two years since we watched the movie "Avatar." She hated it and I still hear about it. And then we went to a Ripley's museum and she still reminds me how she did that for me. 

10. WE RARELY SPEND TIME WITH MY FAMILY. AND WHEN WE DO WE DON'T SPEND MORE THAN TWO HOURS AT A TIME WITH THEM. When we spend time with her family we're there for hours. She also didn't like it when I would spend time with my friends. All of my friends I had when we got married have drifted from me and she doesn't like it when I make more.
11. I have ADHD and a bad short-term memory with it. Sometimes I can't remember what I've heard 2 minutes beforehand. I'll admit that it would be pretty annoying and I'm always improving in this area. But when I forget what she's told me she acts like I don't care about what she thinks. One of my ADHD coping mechanisms is to reiterate what someone just told me. When I did this with my wife she accuses me of thinking that she doesn't explain herself well.

The list could keep going and it feels good to get it out there.

Then a part of me feels like all men have wives like this and I'm being selfish in complaining about it. I think I'm going to need my own therapist. but what do I tell my wife? "I need help because I've been an emotional punching bag for you?" I just don't know how to go about it.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Shutter, the key feature of BPD -- and the one that distinguishes it from all of the other PDs -- is emotional instability. Typically, this will be evident in the way your W will sometimes create arguments to push you away (when she's feeling engulfed and suffocated) and then will act very loving and caring to pull you back (when she's feeling a threat of abandonment). BPDer relationships therefore have that push-you-away and pull-you-back cycle.

I mention this because you do not say anything about her trying to pull you back into the relationship with the loving and caring behavior. Nor do you mention her flipping rapidly between loving you and hating you. Nor do you mention her ever truly loving you. I therefore ask whether you have observed these behaviors and felt that, at least at some point, she genuinely did love you.

If not, you are describing NPD traits, not BPD traits. A person having full-blown narcissism is incapable of loving and does not exhibit emotional instability. Narcissists generally are very stable.


> I think I'm going to need my own therapist. but what do I tell my wife?


If she has strong BPD traits, as you suspect, it doesn't much matter what you tell her. No matter how she accepts it and reacts, her acceptance and reaction likely will change greatly in a week, if not sooner. Unstable people behave inconsistently. 

My suggestion, then, is to simply say that you're feeling a lot of anxiety (or depression) and you've already made an appointment with a psychologist to talk about it. If she is a BPDer, it is pointless to try to discuss it rationally with her because her fears will interfere. 

Hence, keep your explanation very short and don't discuss it. If she throws a temper tantrum or hissy fit, leave the house for a few hours -- or a few days if necessary. Let her know that you will be coming back but that you won't tolerate being treated with such disrespect.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> Sure thing, SB.  (Thank you!) If I can help, let me know. I know we BPDers can drive nons totally crazy in a hot minute (and like you've noticed, make you feel like it's all you).
> 
> I wanted to ask you, can you give an example of an argument with your wife from start to finish?
> 
> ...


Can you see me standing upland clapping for you? Bravo woman! Big learning, Big steps, Big heart aches to overcome. You are amazing!


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## latinaqueen (Feb 16, 2013)

hi everyone, @ uptown 
I cant afford therpy but my husband said I have bpd know a cheaper place to get help?


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## latinaqueen (Feb 16, 2013)

sorry about my post have a baby all over my lap 
@uptown

here is what i wrote upset earlier i wasnt gonna post it bc i saw how all over i was after but maybe seeing how iam will let u see what he see maybe then u can tell me what u think i know your not a doctor but you said you wife had it right so ...


let me start with im venting im very emotional right now bc i lost a baby yesterday and100 things are running though my mind,im healing so im sorry if i jump around too much its what i do when im upset. but i will never talk bout my husband in an ill manner bc i love him. i will go ahead a let it be said i take full and total blame for my ending of my marriage... i found this form only because while being kind to my face my husband whom i thought was my bestfriend was on here trashing me and allowing others to give advised based on his side of the story so he wont feel guilt ,he even admitted this to me when i went to his place and asked for my house key back. This upset me deeply! mostly bc people told him not to feel guilt which is what he wanted to hear.
He said he feels i have this bpd. Which he maybe right but i never blame him so i didnt get that,i take all the blame all the time i do overly explain why i make mistake mostly bc i want him to understand im not stupid or make mistakes to upset him he says that a sign??. i have lied about things around the house lately bc i dont feel like his daily judgement . My mistakes.. are I lied about a past that Iam very ashamed of but again it was before him and i knew he would use it as a reason to trash and look down on me. He says its only the lie bout it that bothers him but the way he talks bout it doesnt show the same. i wish i hadnt lied but i did. no good excuse for lies. Im not the best cook,but i do whatever he wants around the house and sexually or in any way i could i would do anything to make him happy bc i know all couples have issuse , its sad but he is the one i love and has treated me the best desite telling his mom ,his ex wife ,his friends and this form horrible half truths about me i feel like i cant trust him bc of this and bc he lies bout things that matter to me and our ideas of respect in marriage are not the same. ok im sure everyone will see that as an excuse so ill admit . I also have big time trust issues , he lies alot to me about things that dont really matter but it doesnt help me get though not trusting him but i get its no excuse for to not trust ,he says if i had trusted him he wouldnt lie bout little things bc he wouldnt have fear of my nagging,so i feel on my part i have lost my husband over it. He puts me and my kids down about everything my kids are good kids but they have lil issuse like i have to stand over them just to get them to bathe right dress right keep there room clean sometimes they lie exc but i feel some kids are far worst.However they love him, no im not a perfect mom but im a good mom i try really hard and sometimes i get lazy and send two oldest to my moms for a night or twowhich is bad bc they are spoiled there bc i work and staying on them is too much somedays with our new baby and he feels he shouldnt have to do all that bc hes a step dad not there real dad he wants to be a friend to them, i felt he was my partner so we clashed on this and his way of telling me things bout myself or them is alway like he could do it better. I feel warn out sometimes bc the things he says makes me feel im never enough . I cant talk directly to him bout hisown issues so i have showed him books i was reading to fix things bout myself he says is wrong with me and then i find thing he could work on and he blows me off bc he doesnt feel anythings wrong with him , i wish he would except his mistakes and stop talking bout mine i excpet all mine ,not just our marriage he never finishes anything he commits to but is so smart and could do anything he put his mind to if he could hand on though hard times but when times get hard he quits. i want to see him happy but instead of talking to someone bout that or his other issuesi dont feel i need to share, nothing in our marriage has been on him. :soapbox .maybe he has nothing wrong maybe it is all me but i listen when he talks except this last time bc i felt "you already left why do you need to keep telling me why and whats wrong with me and then i saw his form where he betray me i felt and made fun of and let others judge and give himadvise tonot feel guilt or walk on egg shells or be there for me which iwas mad bc noone shouldgive that kind of advise bc everyone that spoke to him failed at marriage themself and didnt know whole truths or both sides.Im not telling him but im taking to heart what he says bout me , I am going to see a real doctor about this possible bpd. I wish i could help him and want hiom to be happy. i know it wont be with me bc he has put it in his mind im trash no good he could do better but hes such a good man and i love him so and how he is with our baby i wish he showed more kindness to my kids but hes only bout his blood kids i feel.so i have given up on this, i even told him i wont ask for child support if he stayed in our town and saw our baby everyday instead of being a wkend dad i feel its best for our baby.i am going though alot besides this and with the lost of my job bc he called a guy i work with ,he told this guy (whom i turned down anyway) iam his woman and wife still and back off. which ill admitt felt good bc hes so cold i feel like im not human to him some times!! sorry i guess im venting bc talking to him he only really listens when i take all the blame. maybe im making excuses , he left the 1st time two weeks from the birth of our baby i weak so weak and begged for him to come back he did ,but i was stronger this time bc he treated me ill admit bc he treated me as his bestfriend to my face didnt put me down as usually. nly on here" but now hes cold. so i guess i used this form to vent ,if ANYONE can read though all that , I wanna be a good mom and let nothing that might be wrong with me pass on to my kids by the way i rasie them. i dont think i can afford therpy ,anyone know of a cheaper route? i need to find out if its what i have and work on it .i admit My marriage ending is my fault. I love him ,and ill always be there for him and im letting him go but i do want to learn from this and fix me. so if a man ever sees a woman w three kids alone as anything more thensex i dont mess that up as well.in the mean while that is last thing on my mind for now im looking to fix me for my kids sake,and finding a new jobs and trying to be a better mommy. thank you for letting me vent , i just feel im always taking blame and never hear anything good about me. i know i dont need it but when u hear something enough you start to think it. so thank you guys. 
ioutside of venting im asking for help.


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## latinaqueen (Feb 16, 2013)

i willbe working on me im not asking for helpto get him back , i gave up bc even if he comes back it last six months n he will say he wants out again this happend three times in two years n i honestly feel worthless enough he will say im a good woman for a while but then trash me again. i love him but im not what he wants. i just want to fix me.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Can you see me standing upland clapping for you? Bravo woman! Big learning, Big steps, Big heart aches to overcome. You are amazing!


Thank you!  (I've read your posts and I think you're amazing, too!) Your support and kind words are greatly appreciated. It has been terribly difficult and scary, but it's getting easier. It helps to have someone in my life who is worth fighting the BPD for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

LQ, lots of information! We only have the information we're given, so that's what we work with. Whenever BPD is mentioned, a lot of people will advocate abandonment, which obviously I can't agree with right out of the gate. But if someone DOES have BPD and has not yet reached self-awareness or therapy, it's a lot to ask of a partner/spouse to stay on through that. They may leave even if people tell them to stay, except maybe it will be later and at a worse time. Who knows. But it's a reality that most people cannot live with a BPDer unless treatment is at least on-going (and the BPDer is committed and open to it). I'm sorry that this is such a difficult and upsetting situation. Sounds like you could both stand to see a qualified therapist in order to sort things out and get that trained, 3rd party perspective on your situation and what the two of you may or may not be dealing with.

Oh, and starting a relationship out by lying about your past is never a good idea! The past DOES matter and influence us, and our partners/spouses have the right to know the truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

latinaqueen said:


> im very emotional right now bc i lost a baby yesterday


LQ, I am so sorry for your terrible loss. I cannot even imagine the pain you must be in today.


> i found this form only because while being kind to my face my husband whom i thought was my bestfriend was on here trashing me.


LQ, because your story does not seem to have anything to do with Shutterbug, I wonder why you have posted in his thread? I suggest you copy and paste your story into a new thread of your own. I would be glad to join you there and participate in your discussion. I suspect that SoulPotato and other TAM members will join you there too.


> @uptown...maybe seeing how iam will let u see what he see maybe then u can tell me what u think i know your not a doctor but you said you wife had it right so ...


LQ, I agree with the advice given above by SoulPotato. As to your concern about having BPD traits, I will say that you definitely do exhibit all nine BPD traits occasionally. We all do. That's why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means we all have the traits to some degree.

At issue, then, is not whether you have these traits. Of course you do. Every adult on the planet does. Rather, the issue is whether you have most of them at a strong and persistent level. Not having met you, I cannot answer that question. I therefore applaud your decision "to see a real doctor about this possible bpd." It is important to obtain a professional opinion -- ideally from a clinical psychologist or a psychiatrist -- on what it is you are dealing with.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

@latina
In order of cost:
Get me out of here: A guide to overcoming borderline personality disorder: 8 USD? - similar to the DBT manual, and much shorter and more readable. Perfectly doable if you're motivated.

Psychiatric medicines: anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, and anti-anxiety drugs are sometimes useful and covered by insurance. 20 USD/month.

DBT group: 100 USD/month - sometimes covered by insurance.
DBT/CBT therapist: 400 USD/month - sometimes covered by insurance

Low-income psychiatric care is often available - call your county - they tend to have information.

Also, talking to a psychologist is a good idea. The problem with being a BPD is that it is hard to be honest with yourself - and that people with personality disorders tend to project them onto other people. It really sounds like you both may have issues and would benefit from talking to a third-party. It can help, if you're broke, to just look at DSM. Bear in mind, everyone has these tendencies to some degree - clinical diagnosis is really meant for behaviors that persistently result in real issues.
Eg., ...yelling at someone - tendency.
...threatening or assaulting a police officer - real issue.

@shutter
BPD actually turns out to be fairly treatable - and, IIRC, even often decreases naturally over time. So, I wouldn't be without hope.

That said, optimistically, you're looking at 6+ years of -worse- behavior - as changes/therapy are stressful. So, divorce is probably the smart option. (See - Splitting).

Assuming you aren't smart, and have high pain tolerance...

Enforcing boundaries helps...so...if X happens, you respond with Y. I found it useful to work those out in advance.
(verbal abuse...leave...)
(physical abuse...jail...)
(suicide threats...institutionalized...)

So does acceptance. If she's a BPD, many of these behaviors are inevitable - and will even increase if you are doing the right thing. There are not choices that involve continual pleasantness and staying with a BPD. Children should be avoided. If you want kids, you may need to divorce and remarry - it is faster and more reliable. If you have kids, consult a lawyer and, depending on the severity, make arrangements for sole custody. BPDs are usually not good parents. And, well, if you make changes to live a healthy life, your R/S will probably not survive. The bright side is that, long-term, if you make changes you have better odds of having a healthy, positive R/S - possibly even with your current wife.

And self-care. The mentally ill are stressful - diet, exercise, diaries, and rest help.

And closeness. It is useful to schedule extra time together (which will suck) - to reassure. Boundaries involve a lot of abandonment, and she'll probably need something to help her survive.

YMMV, but I found MC somewhat helpful. Don't expect constructive discussion. Expect increased conflict. However, around the time MC 3 or 4 threw my wife out of the office, she noticed a consistent pattern - which was a step towards self-awareness. As was noticing that everyone basically recommended the opposite of my wife's communication style. The MC's comments can also be useful in terms of giving you insight into changes you can make in the R/S. Of course, spending 10kish for ...why do the MCs keep getting mad at me...may not appeal to you.

Now, in terms of telling your wife to seek therapy, that's probably not too productive. It is probably better to start with therapy for yourself - as marrying or choosing to stay with a BPD is a red flag for mental health issues. I'm not kidding or joking around - the easiest first step when with a BPD is to work on yourself to be less crazy - think of it as clearing out the underbrush. It is almost a given that there's something wrong with you...probably in away that enables her bad behavior.

OTOH, if you create an atmosphere where it is incredibly obvious that some problems are on her end. (eg...MC #4) And enforce boundaries - and the consequences impact your wife. It is possible that, at some point, she will become aware that some of her behavior is a bit off. In my wife's case, she'd been charged with a felony and her lawyer recommended DBT. I'd also told her that I was planning on moving out and taking the children.

Regarding walking on eggshells, my advice is to kick them instead. Okay, massively increased conflict - but the truth is that a BPD will find conflict if you're behaving perfectly - and I prefer a series of small explosions to isolated large ones. And this yields a ton of opportunities to practice boundaries.

Some people have a lot of luck with validation. I didn't. The problem is that most people don't conform to 'classic' BPD or NPD. 'Classic' BPD seems to involve cutting yourself. 'Classic' NPD often involves incredibly hurtful tirades and a lack of emotional vulnerability. Validating emotions for BPDs is generally said to be a good idea. Validating emotions for NPDs, from the limited number of actual references I've found, just gives them a chance to gaslight you - this mirrors my experience and the experience of a lot of people on BPDCentral. On that note, IMO, the advice on BPDCentral works pretty well for classic BPDs, not so much for NPDs. Try it, but if validation seems useless, consider the NPD option. (Where: I will not tolerate XYZ, and will respond by KLM - should probably be your mantra.) I have found public humiliation to be somewhat useful for NPDs.

Of course, living in hope is not smart. You'd be better advised to try making changes in your behavior and see how things end up and then figure out whether or not you're willing to stay. Truth is - one of the consequences of BPD behaviors is abandonment. And that consequence teaches as well as anything else.

--Argyle
*A last little note...in my wife's case...there appears to be some contribution from co-morbid autism. Autism is a risk factor for a range of personality disorders... So, if your wife has -really- odd communication difficulties, social issues, overload issues...that isn't out of the question. This is an optimistic possibility - as I believe my wife's inability to lie effectively made therapy more successful.
**So far, the violent behaviors have essentially stopped, as has most of the verbal abuse. And, there's considerable self-awareness. OTOH, our case is not typical. Uptown's is more usual. The other typical case is the one where someone spends a decade or two making changes and then, eventually, gives up.


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## Linguist (Nov 24, 2012)

I haven't read the whole thread but most of it, here is my experience


Do you have kids? If the answer is no I recommend the following:

Begin assessing your divorce. Do this by documenting everything. Recording may seem deceptive now but wait until your divorce starts, she will become your worse nightmare and sink to every low. This will protect you, document and come to terms with being nice no matter what, turn the other cheek, know that every day you're one step closer to a better life. Act as if a court judge is next to you every time conflict arises. DO NOT TRY TO REASON OR EXPLAIN, these character flaws can not be fixed by you or demonstrated. Begin organizing your life and what you can live without post divorce. 

If you have kids, here is my recommendation:

Make a decision if you can live with this, don't hope that it will change. BPD is difficult to address and if you get a good therapist/psychiatrist they are only privy to what she tells them. MC is a total disaster and will only inflame he situation. Consult an attorney and see what your financial exposure is. Get organized, document, document, document. 

My stbxw was recently diagnosed wi GAD, depression, add (which she doesn't have but she loves amphetamines) and now she is being treated for PTSD (from our marriage) which I'm told is what some psychiatrists use as a diagnoses when BPD is present as insurance doesn't like to pay for BPD treatment and being labelled Bpd is like being black listed. Most therapists don't like to have one or two people withy this issues as it is so difficult and can be tough to find someone to treat it.

Whatever secrets you have, be honest with your attorney. If your don't have kids, get out, run, but be tactful and nice. Disengage. You can be happy and not walk around being afraid. But remember if you get divorced, be prepared, have everything in order prior to leaving, no questions lingering. Get organized. 

BPD is horrible and if you don't have kids, even better. If I didn't have a child, I would have left years ago and felt lucky to have gotten away. Remember, be nice and don't try and reason. It's a highly irrational disorder in every way. Read up on emotional blackmail so you can identify it and understand it. She is sick, attribute her mean, irresponsible, and bizarre behavior to being sick. It will help you process it. 

Good lcuk


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Please remember that BPD is horrible for the person who actually HAS it, too. He/she can never cut and run to escape it. It's like a hell with no escape unless the person can make it through therapy, and even then, it's a long road out of hell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

One last little trick...
MC in combination with DBT seems more effective than DBT alone.

The advantage is that you can set up an information-sharing agreement - which results in the BPD's therapist being aware of any significant issues. (And, in my experience, the big problem with therapy involves the BPD black-painting a particular therapist. One advantage of BPD is having both a therapist and a DBT group leader - so one is usually white-painted. At one point, my wife hated both her therapist and DBT group leader - but our MC was in her good graces...which led to her continuing therapy.)

--Argyle


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## Singleton (May 30, 2013)

Uptown said:


> Shutter, I agree with the advice given to you by the other respondents. As an initial matter, I believe MC likely would be a total waste of time if your W is a BPDer (i.e., has most BPD traits at a strong level). If so, her issues are far more serious than a simple lack of communication skills.
> 
> Until those underlying problems are addressed, marriage counseling likely will be useless. Moreover, MC can make matters worse. Teaching a BPDer better communication skills will make her better at manipulation but do nothing to address the thought distortions, lack of trust, emotional instability, anger, and immaturity.
> 
> ...


Uptown,

I jumped on this post to thank you for thsi and your other great BPD posts. They are very helpful to all who are affected by BPD especially to partners of pwBPD. I just decided to register and become a member and this is my first post. 

BPD is so hard on everyone involved: pwBPD and those in relationship with them.

I love Shari. She is great although she may be very triggering for pwBPD. She is brutally honest and I do love her style of writing. Her writings made me aware of my ex-wife's BPD.

You are very correct about therapists' reluctance to diagnose BPD and especially tell it to the spouse of pwBPD. I would just add that many therapists are not trained well to recognize BPD and there are those who deny the existence of BPD saying that it is sort of a catch all diagnosis. I disagree with that. Until a year ago I was married to a Waif type of Borderline. BPD is for real and should be taken seriously. It is a very serious mental illness! Just released DSM V may be more realistic in diagnosing BPD and presenting it as shades of grey rather than black and white.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Singleton said:


> I just decided to register and become a member and this is my first post.


Singleton, welcome to the TAM forum. Thanks so much for reaching out with kind words and for deciding to share your valuable BPD experience with TAM members and lurkers. I am hopeful you will be an active member here for a long time because we sure can use your input.


> I love Shari. She is great although she may be very triggering for pwBPD. She is brutally honest and I do love her style of writing.


I love Schreiber too and I often cite some of her articles. My favorite is the one about codependency. As to her attitude about BPDers, I find it to be overly black and white. That is, I don't like the way she paints BPDers as spiders who lie in wait, setting their webs and traps for "Nons" like you and me to become ensnared. 

Of course, some BPDers behave exactly like that -- being very manipulative. And some of them speak French and have blond hair. But none of those traits are BPD symptoms. It simply means, then, that this subset of BPDers also exhibit strong traits of narcissism or AsPD -- where the spider's thread analogy is appropriate. Still, I am a Schreiber fan.


> Many therapists are not trained well to recognize BPD and there are those who deny the existence of BPD saying that it is sort of a catch all diagnosis.


I agree with you. As I've discussed in other threads, it is well known that BPD is grossly under-diagnosed, not over-diagnosed.


> Just released DSM V may be more realistic in diagnosing BPD and presenting it as shades of grey rather than black and white.


Sadly, no. Very little is changed for the PDs. Of course, the all-or-nothing method of diagnosing a PD was absurd when the APA adopted it in 1980. Unlike medical illnesses like chickenpox, BPD and other PDs are not something that one either "has" or "doesn't have." Rather, the PDs are spectrum disorders that everyone has to some degree. The issue, then, is not whether you have PD traits but, rather, how strong and persistent they are.

It therefore is senseless to say a person meeting only 95% of the diagnostic criteria "has no disorder" and a person meeting 100% "has the disorder." Doing so is as silly as diagnosing everyone under 6'4" as "short" and everyone under 250 pounds as "skinny." 

The psychiatric community adopted this silly approach only because the insurance companies -- who were long accustomed to "yes or no" diagnosis from the medical community -- insisted on a single, bright line being drawn between those clients they would cover and those they would not cover.

Over the past three decades, however, the psychiatric community (APA) realized the insurance companies had betrayed them because, despite this act of appeasement, these companies still refused to cover BPD treatments. In addition, the APA members realized that, if they are ever to be taken seriously by the rest of the scientific community, they would have to abandon this absurd approach to identifying mental illness.

Hence, the APA Task Force (for revising the diagnostic manual) recommended last May that this all-or-nothing (i.e., dichotomous) approach be fully replaced by a hybrid diagnostic approach that is both graduated and dimensional. Their May 2012 report, which gives a scathing critique of the existing all-or-nothing approach can be read at http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Perso...the Personality Disorders in DSM-5 5-1-12.pdf.

Last December, however, the APA members voted to reject the new DSM-5 proposed by the APA's task force. Although the members generally recognize that the current approach makes no sense, there was a general fear that insufficient research had been done to support the new approach. You can read about the new DSM-5 in the _Washington Post _article at https://johnib.wordpress.com/2013/0...book-for-mental-illness-disorders-depression/.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If one can control their behavior when the red dot of cop's Taser is shining on their chest or when their boss is watching them at work, they can control their behavior at home. I concede that it's easier to abuse those close to us because those are most likely to tolerate it and the least likely to punish us. I expect those who can control their behavior to do so and those who can't to be safely secured.


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## the vocalist (Jun 1, 2013)

I was in the same boat. Unfortunately, I still am. My husband, I believe, has BPD. Things are great one minute, then he doesn't speak to me for a week because he's upset with something - it doesn't even have to be anything I've done or said - I'm just there to soak in the frustrations, I suppose. 
A few years ago, it was so bad that I actually left. I packed up and went to a local motel for almost a week. I'm not telling you to do anything like this, but it helped then. He finally understood that things were bad... that all I ever did was walk on eggshells... He went to the doctor and was treated for mild depression. He took the meds for a little while - and now he's stopped. It is worse than it ever was. I don't want our marriage to end - I suppose that's why I've joined this forum. There has to be answers out there! 
I know it's hard to "talk" to someone with BPD about getting help. Even when everything is "OK" around here, he still won't hear me. He will get really aggravated when I suggest he take his meds or call the Dr. for a check up. I don't do it harshly, but sometimes in a loving, holding hand kind of way... he still turns it around that I'm the one that needs to go, not him. 
HANG IN THERE! YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!! -- just reading your post makes me realize this myself! GOOD LUCK TO YOU! I will say a prayer for you and your wife. This is when she needs you the most... for better or worse... God Bless!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

the vocalist said:


> My husband, I believe, has BPD.


Vocalist, welcome to the TAM forum. You wrote a nicely detailed and very articulate first post. When you are ready to discuss your own issues, I suggest you copy and paste that post into a new thread. If you have time, please add more detail as to why you believe your H exhibits strong BPD traits. I would be glad to discuss it with you. And I'm sure there are many other experienced TAM members who would be glad to do so too.
EDIT: Oops, just noticed you posted a new thread a few minutes ago. Smart decision!


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## MidwestDave (Jun 18, 2009)

notperfectanymore said:


> Rule #1...don't tell her you think she has it...trust me . Force her to get help for her "issues" and let a professional diagnose her. Begin taking care of yourself. The above poster is correct, Uptown will have MUCH good info for you..meanwhile, for your own sanity (you cannot fix her, she must do this herself) head over to Borderline Personality Disorder - Support group for families and relationship partners Those people are a saving grace for those of us dealing with BPD peeps...please take care of YOURSELF! That is most important here, I promise


I'm dealing with this too... and it is certainly the hardest thing I've ever had to cope with in my lifetime, bar none. Uptown is a wealth of information that is for sure. I've been to the forum posted here, "Borderline Personality Disorder - Support group" but I haven't seen very many men over there.


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## CreekWalker (May 31, 2013)

I haven't read this whole thread, but please be cautious in diagnosing people with BPD. Did you know that borderline personality disorder and thyroid disease are often mistaken for bi-polar?

They can have similar issues.

I was treated for both somatoform and bi-p before a doctor did an antibody test and determined my swings were from hypo/hyper thyroid. Regular t4 tests showed fairly close to normal, but antibodies were crazy. 

Just be aware. And let a good clinical psychologist do the dx, not a nurse practitioner or regular doctor.


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