# LD Proposed Definitions Type 1 Type 2 Type 3 Type 4?



## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

Whom wants to help? debate? contribute to an effort to push the understanding of this painful issue farther into a useful established understanding? 

Proposed specificity for discussion, learning, growth of LD HD knowledge base

Proposed LD definition - a spouse whose craving for sex is low enough as to be so unsatisfying to their HD spouse that their HD uncontrollably, continuously, intensively and bitterly considers every conceivable option including ending the marriage in an absurdly, all-consuming, level of frustration

Proposed HD definition - a spouse whose sexual cravings are high enough as to be unmet by spouse so completely as to be fully consumed by sexual frustration and resentment even if and when sexual activity is noticeably but moderately increased by their LD

Type 1 LD - Not attracted to spouse

Can it be turned into a sexually satisfying marriage? Yes

Possible solution available for HD spouse - Aggressive re attraction program including consistent 180 behaviors and remarkable level of romantic pursuit and providing spouses needs in their top three love languages being mindful of their rank of 1st 2nd and 3rd

Probability of resolution with highly skilled implementation of solution - 100%, Satisfaction level 100%

Probability of resolution with moderately skilled implementation of solution - 50%, satisfaction level 50%

Probability of resolution with poorly skilled implementation of solution - 10%, satisfaction level 30%

Common causes

1. Built up resentment from neglect aka being taken for granted
2. HD has ongoing issues - (your ideas here) 
3. LD has issues - (your ideas here) 

Type II LD - Always been LD (unknown during honeymoon phase) aka Bait and Switch

Description - Sexually satisfying until the bio-chemical reactions cease and frequent sexual activity taper off back to their natural state with0out the influence of new love biochemistry

Solution available for HD spouse - LD maturely increases sexual activity for love of HD. HD accepts LD natural level of cravings

Probability of fully satisfying resolution - 0% 
Probability of barely satisfying resolution - 100% 

Method of solution - communication and mutual give and take from each spouse

Type III - Lazy, selfish

Possible solution - Guilt and shame 
Duration of solution - On and off for days or weeks back to same ol rotten Shiite

Probability of ultimate resolution other than divorce -
ZERO

Type IV - Cheater getting it elsewhere 

Possible solution - 

Probability of resolution - 



OK What else you got people?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Type I - better off without them.
Type II Damned fraud who ought to be in prison and branded on the forehead to protect other potential victims.
Type III Useless as mammaries on a boar and has no business in any relationship.
Type IV Dishonest, possibly salvageable, probably not worth the risk.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Only 3 types needed.


*True LD*: Never desired sex to any significant level. May get a lust filled urge for sex once in a blue moon. No one inspires you to feel high levels of desire - ever.
*Situational LD*: You have a healthy sex drive, but it is dormant because of who you are dating or are married to.
*Hormonal LD*: Due to a hormonal issue, your sex drive plummeted. Getting your hormones in balance will address this issue (test, est, thyroid)

Based on my interactions with others - Situational is most common, then Hormonal and True LD is a distant last.


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Only 3 types needed.
> 
> 
> *True LD*: Never desired sex to any significant level. May get a lust filled urge for sex once in a blue moon. No one inspires you to feel high levels of desire - ever.
> ...


This is helpful and I believe accurate. However, my experience is there is a honeymoon period for all three of your types which has an initial be very or at least rather aggressive sexual cravings for about 18 to 36 months or so during new love. 

In all three cases, this causes confusion and accusations of bait and switch. 

Other questions

1. Are LDs aware of and understand which of the three LD types they are? 

2. Are LDs typically honest about disclosing their LD type and reasons for lack of motivation to their spouse so it can be fixed?

3. Which LD types are motivated to fix the LD/HD issue in the marriage and which are not and why? 

4. Are all three LD types known for practicing the LD strategy of avoidance? If not, which do and which do not and why?

5. Are all three LD types deceitful? 

6. Do you believe different LD types behave any differently from the others? 

7. Which LD types are motivated and able to address the issue for the purpose of their HD spouse having a more satisfying marriage?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

What Are My Options said:


> This is helpful and I believe accurate. *However, my experience is there is a honeymoon period for all three of your types* which has an initial be very or at least rather aggressive sexual cravings for about 18 to 36 months or so during new love.
> 
> In all three cases, this causes confusion and accusations of bait and switch.
> 
> ...


IMHO, you're over-thinking this. In bold, I would argue that you saw people that either lost attraction to their spouse but are otherwise healthy in libido or you saw people who had the hormones go out of whack and result in low libido. IMHO, a true LD will NOT have an extended honeymoon phase. They may have intense sexual experiences but those would be very few and far in between. Someone who is showing a healthy libido over an extended period of time like a honeymoon phase has a healthy libido that is lost in the future by emotional or biochemical means.

Also, there is another component that you didn't consider. Maybe a the "bait and switch" was real in a couple of your situations and the "LD" did in fact fake the high sexual energy until he/she felt secure enough in the relationship to drop the charade.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Only 3 types needed.
> 
> 
> *True LD*: Never desired sex to any significant level. May get a lust filled urge for sex once in a blue moon. No one inspires you to feel high levels of desire - ever.
> ...


A 4th type should be added - psychological LD. Causes: sexual abuse, rigid religious or cultural upbringing, etc. - all of which causes faulty thinking patterns and ideals about sex and their sexuality. Often causes them to deny or bury most sexual feelings and desires.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

It's all well and good to delineate as many LD types as we like, but the ultimate question remains--what type is your own LD spouse? And what do you do about it?

Microscoping LD as a whole gets an individual diddly-squat.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Fozzy said:


> It's all well and good to delineate as many LD types as we like, but the ultimate question remains--what type is your own LD spouse? And what do you do about it?
> 
> Microscoping LD as a whole gets an individual diddly-squat.


Possibly, for some that is true, but some cases there are remedies if you can correctly identify the whys. For example correcting hormonal balances can increase sexual desire in many LD spouses if that is why they are LD.


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

I have edited the types to make them easy to cut an paste for further discussion and I have added a 5th combination type for debate and discussion


[*]*True LD*: Never desired sex to any significant level. May get a lust filled urge for sex once in a blue moon. No one inspires you to feel high levels of desire - ever.


[*]*Situational LD*: You have a healthy sex drive, but it is dormant because of who you are dating or are married to.


[*]*Hormonal LD*: Due to a hormonal issue, your sex drive plummeted. Getting your hormones in balance will address this issue (test, est, thyroid)


[*]*Psychological LD*: Causes: sexual abuse, rigid religious or cultural upbringing, etc. - all of which causes faulty thinking patterns and ideals about sex and their sexuality. Often causes them to deny or bury most sexual feelings and desires


[*]*Combination LD* One issue above causing others. For example: Frequent HD complaints about Hormonal LD leading to compounding/complexity adding Situational LD component



Fozzy said:


> It's all well and good to delineate as many LD types as we like, but the ultimate question remains--what type is your own LD spouse? And what do you do about it? icroscoping LD as a whole gets an individual diddly-squat.


I don't approach things this way. I want to understand what the hell is going on so I can identify the proper solution. I also want to spread the understanding so others can assist each other with this very common and very ruinous, painful problem. 

I do strongly believe however that biochemistry is at work with new love, endorphins, oxytocin, etc and that causes an inability to diagnose or predict how a marriage will turn out until after the biochemical honeymoon is over during a 18 to 36 month period of amazing sex. 

Also, I do not understand which types of LD always play this denial/avoidance game and which types are legitimately unable to grasp how awful the HD experience is with an LD spouse and which types are eager to resolve the deep frustration the LD/HD issue causes for the HD. 

There is also an initiation component that is effected by reactionary desire. 

Building a framework of undersanding would help a lot of people identify the driving factor(s) and then the solution(s) 

In other words, it doesn't make sense to engage in hormone therapy if the issue is situational or psychological. 

It seems a process of elimination can be developed by those of us with experience and direct knowledge with all of these very common LD/HD issues.

BTW I read the "Sex Starved Marriage" for a second time and found it, not very helpful beyond identification of the LD issue. Much of my disappointment was with the suggestion of LD cooperation being an always available solution.

To be clear, I do have a dog in the hunt. My initial diagnosis of my LD spouse was situational from years of taking my spouse for granted not knowing ongoing effort was required. (Not too bright at the time). 

We fixed that by my not taking my spouse for granted any longer and my spouse being more direct about what was wanted and needed. It has been a partial fix only. I can not address all issues fast enough to restore the once very intense sexual desire which I find annoyingly disappointing. 

I have also had to destabilize my marriage by threatening to leave more than once to get cooperation and improvement to stick for more than a few days.


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

Do all relationships start out red hot like mine did? 

I have not heard of one that did not but I believe it is biochemistry at work that eventually wears off and the true LD/HD types sets in for the long haul but can be altered with skill, desire, adjustment and consistent follow through of known solutions.

Does anyone else here believe LD issues can be drastically improved or even resolved entirely with developed skills, intense desire to crack the code, even drastic adjustment of HDs libido killing behaviors and consistent follow through of known solutions by both LD and HD? 

Where the hell is the LD avoidance game coming from. Is it simply not wanting to give up all of the other trappings of the marriage? 

Is that why destabilizing the marriage is thought to be required to get the LD to take the issue seriously enough to work hard at resolving it?


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

WAMO... I think you pose some very interesting and thoughtful questions. Having been trapped (now divorced) in a 20 year low/no sex marriage, I tried to answer the questions but find in many cases there is actually more than one answer!

That's what make the whole LD conundrum so exasperating. If we could actually figure out the answers to your questions, most of us wouldn't get stuck in these soul-killing HD/LD marriages. I know for the majority of the time I was in it, it was like having blinders on. I simply could NOT figure out how to fix it, or even what the problem really was. In the case of my ex who was low-T, even after starting on testosterone and getting his levels up to normal/high range, it still didn't improve things very much. So it can't be as simple as hormone therapy in some cases.

I'm going to give this some more thought.


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## RS71 (Mar 20, 2014)

LD is but one of a number of issues we've identified in our marriage, but it one that we've brought out into the open. We've been together 13 years and married 9. Depending on definition, a sexless marriage at some points, but not others.

Is, putting in plainly, "ignorance" a potential cause to some LD. W's emotional need for sex is low, which is not uncommon. But until we started talking about it recently, she didn't understand that "sex" and "sexual fulfillment" is not the same. Nor is just allowing me access, all that emotionally satisfying. She states she wants to meet my needs (or at least work on it), but makes it clear she doesn't have the same need. What I'm discovering is that although she is 37 and had 5 partners before me, she understands very little about sex. She has no appreciation for seduction, expressing needs, variety, and especially communication. 

Our M is not a case of that it was great and then took a down turn. Its simply been something that has never been encouraged or refused by W, and certainly not talked about. No feedback has made it frustrating to satisfy and be satisfied, and boundaries are still a bit of a mystery. She's assumed that all forms of release are equal, and equally satisfying; which has been unfortunate. 

The suggestion that we see a therapist resulted in objects being thrown at me, but she will let me read things to her, and she identifies as needing to get better. This isn't perfect, but it is encouraging. That said, I've been given hope on other things that don't materialize... but that's for another post.

So is there a percentage of LD that is simply borne from ignorance about a partners needs, desires, and more importantly, the act of sex, and the components of sexual fulfillment. Just as many of us men are ignorant to a woman's need for affection and validation until we are forced to explore it, could the same be for LD.

I also believe that sex could be much more satisfying for W if we could work on it together. She meets this with some indifference, saying that it could be made better for her, but ultimately its just not important.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

We make promises and decent folks do their best to keep them. Our marriage vows didn't include the qualifier, "if you feel like it". I go to work every day and it doesn't matter if I'm feeling emotionally connected, angry, resentful, disappointed, etc. I fed my kids and dogs because they had legitimate needs and they depended on me. I am a faithful husband 24/7 even though I may naturally feel attraction for thousands of other women. In short, nobody is losing any sleep over how I feel. They expect me to behave in certain ways at all times and they have a right to expect that. I cannot imagine watching my wife go hungry, cold, lonely, or sexually deprived as long as I had the breath of life in me and I was physically able to relieve her suffering. If a woman refused to feed her baby, nobody on this forum would be brainstorming to try to figure out why. They'd say she was a neglectful mother and ought to be in prison and the child ought to be taken from her.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I think there is a lot of lying going on in most LD situations.

I think the LD spouse often has no attraction for the HD spouse but avoids coming out and saying it.

I think a lot of people settle when they marry. No one wants to admit this but it is common. I think women settle much more often than men. The average woman finds the average guy repulsive.

Some men basically want a replacement for their mother as a wife. They prioritize this over attraction. If they could get a super hot version of mom, this would be ideal but they can't so they just choose mom. And they're not really interested in her as a woman.

All of these people have made internal compromises but they put the blame on the person they married for not being good enough.


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## speeedbump (Mar 12, 2013)

What Are My Options said:


> Do all relationships start out red hot like mine did?
> 
> I have not heard of one that did not...


Well, here's one data point for you.

Mine was cold from the beginning. You might ask, "How this could happen?"

Good question. Fact is I was young and a good Christian boy. We waited until marriage. After the knot was tied I was finally ready to experience some red hot passion. But no. There was nothing. She was LD then and has always been.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

mary35 said:


> A 4th type should be added - psychological LD. Causes: sexual abuse, rigid religious or cultural upbringing, etc. - all of which causes faulty thinking patterns and ideals about sex and their sexuality. Often causes them to deny or bury most sexual feelings and desires.



That's the most common cause in my thinking - physiological etcetera LD's are rare. For the most part LD is a learned behavior. Not always a voluntary behavior but a learned one nonetheless.

I've said all that after reading NMMNG and MMSLP et al. They work well for a small subset of LD's but not well in more hardened cases.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

What Are My Options said:


> Do all relationships start out red hot like mine did?
> 
> I have not heard of one that did not but I believe it is biochemistry at work that eventually wears off and the true LD/HD types sets in for the long haul but can be altered with skill, desire, adjustment and consistent follow through of known solutions.


There are plenty of OP's in the sexless marriage threads that say the sex had started to dwindle before they got married. They married them anyway, but expected them to be different after marriage.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

norajane said:


> There are plenty of OP's in the sexless marriage threads that say the sex had started to dwindle before they got married. They married them anyway, but expected them to be different after marriage.


I'm sure lots of physically abused women knew their prospective partners had bad tempers before they got married but we still arrest the husbands who beat them. I really doubt many men or women honestly tell their partners before the marriage that they intend to withhold sex and require their unwilling partner to exist as sexless beings for the rest of their life. I expect they all have some plausible excuse for being tardy with sex before the nuptials. Mine told me she was tardy because she was Catholic and sex outside of marriage was sinful. I guess sex inside of marriage is, too.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

You write out these LD 'types' very carefully with so much analysis. You want to identify which type you are dealing with so you know how to attack the problem and fix it. To an HD person, it seems so abnormal to be LD that there must be something wrong with it. But to the LD person, it's also normal and they don't feel they need fixing.

When there is a HD-LD disconnect in a relationship, why must the onus be on the LD person to change? Maybe they should just admit that they are not sexually compatible and part ways. Maybe they should take counselling and learn to communicate and compromise better about their differences. Maybe the HD person should take medication that lessens libido.

The problem is not the LD person. It's not the HD person. It's the mismatch.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I wrote a couple of blog posts that are very similar to your posts in this thread, OP.

Let's Talk About Sex: Why Do Some Relationships Become Sexless?

Let's Talk About Sex: How Sexual Are You?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Where is this magical land where people only do what they wish to do, when they wish to do it? I've never been there.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

So, what score does the following LD behavior deserve?

We are planning a Christmas cruise to Central America. We are experienced cruisers, and the girls have always shared a cabin with us (3rd and 4th passenger steep discounts). This time thanks to my older girl's full ride to grad school and some serious paid overtime from me we will get two cabins. Price difference is fairly small actually, maybe an extra 200 to 300 dollars total.

Wife protested the idea big time, fearing that all kinds of evil things will happen to the girls in their own cabin. (Across for ours). Never mind they are both in college hours away, or that they have spent the summer in Europe without falling into any large bodies of water...

Upon gentle probing she also indicated she thinks I want a real honeymoon (we did have one at Cedar Point in Ohio :rofl: )

So, is that a 1, 2, 3, 4, or should I switch to exponential notation?


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

What Are My Options said:


> Do all relationships start out red hot like mine did?
> 
> I have not heard of one that did not but I believe it is biochemistry at work that eventually wears off and the true LD/HD types sets in for the long haul but can be altered with skill, desire, adjustment and consistent follow through of known solutions.
> 
> ...


Our relationship started out red hot on the first date - we sat in the car with my hands up her dress making out, then ended up naked back at her place (no actual sex that night, but did the deed a week later). Had rather frequent sex, had the best sex we ever had on our wedding night. Honeymoon only had sex once, and that should have been a clue. Increased some a few years in, but now it's nothing. 

Other clues - she mentioned that didn't like it that her ex wanted sex "all the time", and she gave in just to keep him happy, and that she likes it that I don't bug her for sex. Divorced friend mentioned that she could go the rest of her life without sex, and I caught W nodding in agreement. 

In our case, W is lazy. Sex is too much work in her mind, so why would she burden herself with work when it's easier to play games on her phone?


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

"Proposed LD definition - a spouse whose craving for sex is low enough as to be so unsatisfying to their HD spouse that their HD uncontrollably, continuously, intensively and bitterly considers every conceivable option including ending the marriage in an absurdly, all-consuming, level of frustration

Proposed HD definition - a spouse whose sexual cravings are high enough as to be unmet by spouse so completely as to be fully consumed by sexual frustration and resentment even if and when sexual activity is noticeably but moderately increased by their LD"


I can certainly see you are full of resentment and very focused on yourself. I see no real benefit of defining or typing individuals (other than for clinical/scientific reasons)

Spending your life with this level of bitterness is a waste. Who knows why she is like she is besides her? The why is unimportant if she does not want to put in the effort to change. 

Her changing herself would be about as likely as you changing yourself. If it is so easy than you should just become LD so that you two can be matched. 

Get some counselling or move on.


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