# 50 Shades--the template



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

So I went to see 50 Shades with the wife over the weekend. We were discussing how it's been so successful because of the mass appeal based on the template of Christian Grey. Basically he checks all the boxes to appeal to a wide enough segment of women to be a successful sell. Rich, young, good-looking, broken-but-salvageable, just a BIT of a d!ck, rich, pilot, rich...you get the idea. Something for everyone.

I asked my wife what she thought would make a good template for a similar character to appeal to men. She immediately shot back with the usual stereotypes--blonde, big boobs, available for sex at a moment's notice, rich. It struck me that NONE of the things she named off really appealed to me as something that would make "the complete package".

I think for men, there's such a wide range of things we find physically attractive that you can't really make that part of the template. My wife has an insecurity thing about big boobed blondes--not sure why because they don't really do anything special for me. Her other categories--similarly don't work. Rich doesn't work for a lot of men who prefer to be the provider. Available for sex just makes me think "starfish".

What I've come to as a template (at least for me) comes down mostly to personality qualities. I think men in general want someone to make them feel needed, desired, supported and respected. So Christina Grey would need to do that for her counterpart.

Needed emotionally and financially.

Desired physically (note the difference from my wife's response of "available for sex at the drop of a hat")

Respected. Looked up to. Admired.

Supported. No man is an island, and even the most macho dude needs some help.

Now take those qualities and drop them into a Hollywood starlet of your choosing, and you have Christina Grey.

What would be your template? Is my wife right? Are we both wrong? What would make a woman the total package for the largest cross-section of men?


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

I believe your wife missed "holding a 6 pack of beer" in the ideal woman.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

I hate 50 shades, both the characters have huge issues. The templates you describe are missing some of the major characteristics of both of them.


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## ChristianGrey (Nov 27, 2014)

Just big boobs is fine. You are getting way to choosy with irrelevant things like hair color.

Appetite for BJs would be worth millions.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I hate 50 shades, both the characters have huge issues. The templates you describe are missing some of the major characteristics of both of them.


No doubt. I haven't read the books, only seen the movie. I've also spent the last two years listening to every female coworker talking about it non-stop. Some days we need a mop.

Whatever our personal opinions are about it (I think he's pretty creepy, myself), it hit a nerve with a mass audience of women. Regardless of how poorly written, underdeveloped, etc--it's a hit.

I'm actually now a little more curious about how the ladies would create a similar character to appeal to men. What do you think LittleDeer?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think you may be missing a key component of the allure of Christian Grey. He's a _fantasy_. Which means that, by definition, female readers don't have to deal with him on the level of reality. Rich, hot, sexy, billionaire with deep psychological issues sounds sufficiently hot - as long as you don't have to actually deal with those deep psychological issues. Most women wouldn't enjoy the reality of the Grey character. They don't want to date him - in the real world - they just want to fantasize about him. And most women are aware of the difference between what's hot as fantasy and what would be hot in reality. 

I would think this is fairly similar to the way men relate to women in porn. She's hot, she's sexually into whatever you are, she's whatever your type is physically. But, less face it, you don't really want a real-life relationship with her. Not if you really think about introducing that girl to your mother, or having her parent your children. She's a fantasy. Part of what makes her hot is that you don't have to deal with whatever her brand of crazy is.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rowan said:


> I think you may be missing a key component of the allure of Christian Grey. He's a _fantasy_. Which means that, by definition, female readers don't have to deal with him on the level of reality. Rich, hot, sexy, billionaire with deep psychological issues sounds sufficiently hot - as long as you don't have to actually deal with those deep psychological issues. Most women wouldn't enjoy the reality of the Grey character. They don't want to date him - in the real world - they just want to fantasize about him. And most women are aware of the difference between what's hot as fantasy and what would be hot in reality.
> 
> I would think this is fairly similar to the way men relate to women in porn. She's hot, she's sexually into whatever you are, she's whatever your type is physically. But, less face it, you don't really want a real-life relationship with her. Not if you really think about introducing that girl to your mother, or having her parent your children. She's a fantasy. Part of what makes her hot is that you don't have to deal with whatever her brand of crazy is.


Great analogy. This is female porn. It's fantasy not reality. Every time they do a poll about women's fantasies.... rape fantasy is always at the top...generally top three. That doesn't mean they actually want to be raped. Probably more in line of a fantasy like 50 shades.

I saw the movie and thought it was ridiculous . And the acting was just terrible my opinion. My Gf thought the book was much better .


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> My Gf thought the book was much better .


Damn. The movie must _really_ suck, then. That the book could be better, than anything at all, is just.....appalling.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Right! I totally get it's a fantasy. What's interesting is that the character seemingly has such mass appeal across an entire gender.

If you distill it down to being the female equivalent of porn, you still couldn't find a particular "type" of porn star that would appeal across such a broad spectrum to men. Some guys are into the big-boobed blondes of my wife's nightmares. Some guys are into petite red-heads. Some guys are into latinas. There's not enough consistency in what men prefer in physical traits to pigeon-hole a "look" that's going to capture men's attention at the level that the Christian Grey character captured women. That's why I'm looking at other traits in addition to the physical.

Maybe those traits wouldn't translate well into a story--maybe they would. I'd point to both Lisey's Story and Bag of Bones by Stephen King as well done (in my opinion) romance stories that can appeal to men. I'd posit that men CAN be sold on a romance fantasy without it devolving to porn, but nailing down that mass appeal might be a little trickier.


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## Joe Cool (Feb 24, 2015)

I was happy to know my wife thought both the movie and books were pathetic. 

Answering your question my template would be fit loving respectful horny loyal fun intelligent feminine energetic women with similar values goals and priorities that I am very attracted to


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## Marriedwithdogs (Jan 29, 2015)

50 shades of grey is unrealistic as they get. A man spending money on expensive gifts, flying you around in his chopper, and the only thing he wants is you to be his dom. Doesn't he have a whole room set up just for that? If the characters were ugly, it would not be appealing at all to the gp!


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

If there were really only one porn star that had mainstream availability to most men, then most men would probably be in to her. I think Christian Grey's mass appeal depends a good bit on his mass availability. There's little in the way of other erotica stories/characters for most women to ogle that are as socially acceptable.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

This is probably a good point. I hadn't considered availability into the mix.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Rowan, this makes me think that the mass appeal of the character can be attributed as much to novelty as to anything else. Would you say that's correct?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Rowan, this makes me think that the mass appeal of the character can be attributed as much to novelty as to anything else. Would you say that's correct?


I think novelty is probably a big factor. 

And, hey, women are often just as attracted to shiny objects as men are.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Furthermore, would you say that building a template for "the perfect woman" character is doomed from the start because of the availability of niche characters that tailor to particular tastes?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rowan said:


> Damn. The movie must _really_ suck, then. That the book could be better, than anything at all, is just.....appalling.


The acting was about as bad as I have seen in a movie in a VERY long time and this coming from a guys who lives in the action /comic/sci fi movies....... It was just bad bad bad. If the dialog between characters was like that in the book it's hard to imagine that being any better

I think the mistake Was they went with two unknown actors who had several very difficult scenes to film and enormous Pressure because of how loved the series is. Perhaps more experienced actors could have made it look more real?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Furthermore, would you say that building a template for "the perfect woman" character is doomed from the start because of the availability of niche characters that tailor to particular tastes?


I would think the availability of niche characters for particular tastes would make it hard to create a template for a perfect woman for every man out there. 

That said, I think many men would be really drawn - at least on a superficial, fantasy, not-a-real-relationship level, as women are to Grey - to the basic model of: young, long hair, large breasts, petite frame, even features, smart, successful, highly sexual but only with him. If you throw in some low self-esteem or other mild emotional issue he can "fix", then you've probably got a winner for a fairly broad range of men. Sure, she won't trip the trigger of a guy who's really into Furries or BBW or some other niche, but she's going to be sufficiently hot for your average Joe.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)




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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
the women in James Bond films (at least the older ones) did a fair job of mapping out one part of fantasy women for men.

There will always be outliers like me who's tastes don't really match the mainstream.

I wonder if part of the appeal of 50 shades is just that women enjoy porn, but that many consider it socially unacceptable and a mainstream movie gives them an excuse.


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## Marriedwithdogs (Jan 29, 2015)

Richard, it's said that women like porn with a story line, so you may be on to something.


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> ...Some guys are into latinas.


Wait a minute...You mean to tell me that some guys aren't? *grin*


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

I think when it comes to fantasy templates that would make a scattershot appeal to men...a Christina Grey...would probably be someone like Nicole Kidman's character in Moulin Rouge, or Marilyn Monroe, some ideal highly sexualized female that triggers both a young-lad Oedipus complex and a "I want to own this women" reaction in men who we willing to sell off everything or risk his life in order to pursue her. 

The fantasy ideal is attaining the unattainable...the unicorn...the great white buffalo...but throw in some chances at freaky sex and a guy is pretty much sold.

For men, it is all about the tantalizing tease and the thrill of the pursuit...that men lose their minds. I'm not saying that is a healthy approach to a trusting relationship, but we're talking about a fantasy scenario.

The Art of Seduction shows that, yes, there are different modes of seduction that personalities particularly respond, but the overall truth is that people do often respond to seduction.










I think there is also a hero component to male fantasy as well. Men desire that these "out of my league" sensual princesses who may also disdain us at the outset, become awakened by epiphany of our greatness because of some heroic act....evidenced by the Leg Cling art on books and posters. While romance novels typically feature a man passionately devouring his objection of affection with burning desire...men's fantasy also had a trend (you don't see it so much anymore except maybe in parody form) of the sexy, fearful princess clutching at the leg of a stalwart hero.


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## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

For me brains is the #1 factor for the long haul. I have to be with someone I can have real conversations with. Someone quick witted. Someone who gets things without having to have everything explained to them at a "dumbed down" level. The physical is nice but for the long haul I have to have brains.


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

FormerSelf said:


> I think when it comes to fantasy templates that would make a scattershot appeal to men...a Christina Grey...would probably be someone like Nicole Kidman's character in Moulin Rouge, or *Marilyn Monroe,* some ideal highly sexualized female that triggers both a young-lad Oedipus complex and a "I want to own this women" reaction in men who we willing to sell off everything or risk his life in order to pursue her.


Marilyn Monroe may have been an HPD...
Famous People with Histrionic Personality Disorder | HRF


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

MountainRunner said:


> Marilyn Monroe may have been an HPD...
> Famous People with Histrionic Personality Disorder | HRF


But most dudes don't care. Because she was hot. And they weren't going to really date her anyway, so her brand of crazy was pretty much irrelevant.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I agree with your wife. Just look at advertising geared to drawn in men. The majority has a woman with blond hair and big boobs.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

FormerSelf said:


> I think when it comes to fantasy templates that would make a scattershot appeal to men...a Christina Grey...would probably be someone like Nicole Kidman's character in Moulin Rouge, or Marilyn Monroe, some ideal highly sexualized female that triggers both a young-lad Oedipus complex and a "I want to own this women" reaction in men who we willing to sell off everything or risk his life in order to pursue her.
> 
> The fantasy ideal is attaining the unattainable...the unicorn...the great white buffalo...but throw in some chances at freaky sex and a guy is pretty much sold.
> 
> ...


I don't know how you're supposed to stab a warlord when some woman is grabbing your leg.

Women always be trippin.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

MountainRunner said:


> Marilyn Monroe may have been an HPD...
> Famous People with Histrionic Personality Disorder | HRF


I think this shows that when people make the mistake of trying to bring fantasy to life, men find out their "sparkling diamond" is actually bat-s*** crazy and women discover that their "Christian Grey" is actually a narcissistic a-hole.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

FormerSelf said:


> I think this shows that when people make the mistake of trying to bring fantasy to life, men find out their "sparkling diamond" is actually bat-s*** crazy and women discover that their "Christian Grey" is actually a narcissistic a-hole.


Correct. 50 Shades of Grey is a science fiction novel.


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

My SO is already the template for my fantasy woman. 

I needn't look any further.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I agree with the OP in regards to my fantasy woman.

"I think men in general want someone to make them feel needed, desired, supported and respected."

Now if you add to the above .... attractive face, slim waist, nice butt, c or d sized breasts, horny

Then that is my fantasy woman. And I actually married her.

That was almost thirty years ago. What is left is attractive face, slim waist, nice butt, c sized breasts. She hasn't made me feel needed, desired, supported and respected for a number of years now. Sucks to be me!


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

She needs to be able to mind fk us.

I think to be on the same level as 50SOG a woman needs to be able to convince us that our penises are small and we have an anal fetish for a reason.

A Letter To My Children About Fifty Shades of Grey


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Decorum said:


> She needs to be able to mind fk us.
> 
> I think to be on the same level as 50SOG a woman needs to be able to convince us that our penises are small and we have an anal fetish for a reason.
> 
> A Letter To My Children About Fifty Shades of Grey


Who needs to be convinced? 

Seriously though--the manipulation shown by Christian Grey APPARENTLY is part of his charm. I'm not sure that would be a selling point for men if a woman was equally as manipulative. Maybe I'm off base.


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## micawber (Oct 8, 2014)

I still haven't decided between Betty or Veronica...or Ginger or MaryAnn. 

Throw some SUB/DOM into that mix and it could get really interesting.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Seriously though--the manipulation shown by Christian Grey APPARENTLY is part of his charm. I'm not sure that would be a selling point for men if a woman was equally as manipulative. Maybe I'm off base.


Seduction IS manipulation...and men are usually prone to subtle applications of flattery or other ego-boosting techniques that will lower his guard. Some are not prone, but I'd say most of us are.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

FormerSelf said:


> Seduction IS manipulation...and men are usually prone to subtle applications of flattery or other ego-boosting techniques that will lower his guard. Some are not prone, but I'd say most of us are.


Seduction CAN be manipulation. I don't think it's the same as the kind of machiavellian manipulation I'm thinking of. I think MOST of the time when you're being seduced you're aware of it on some level and are a willing participant. That wasn't the way Grey's character struck me. He struck me as more of a predator than anything. Again--that's probably part of his charm (shiver).


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Interesting thread topic. I have my own ideal template, and I don't really feel a need to tell it since I am far from the typical american male, however it does not include the characteristics your W listed at all (pretty is good, flashy is not).


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

It seems to me that there are romance novels for women about nice handymen and abusive billionaires, but there are no romance novels about abusive handymen.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I think there is a big difference between what someone might want in a "fantasy" mate and "real" mate.

50 shades is a fantasy. Nothing wrong with fantasy as long as no one believes it is real.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Like whenever there's a working class character, he's the kind, sensitive, strong-handed foil to the oppressive or absent rich husband. You never get a controlling-and-mysterious regular joe as a foil to the soft-hearted financier.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

John Lee said:


> Like whenever there's a working class character, he's the kind, sensitive, strong-handed foil to the oppressive or absent rich husband. You never get a controlling-and-mysterious regular joe as a foil to the soft-hearted financier.


You do in real life. Biker vs Banker.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

John Lee said:


> Like whenever there's a working class character, he's the kind, sensitive, strong-handed foil to the oppressive or absent rich husband. You never get a controlling-and-mysterious regular joe as a foil to the soft-hearted financier.


This "regular joe" would be considered a pervert and a stalker, resulting in a swift restraining order the second he led her to his "tool shed."
He: My tastes are very...singular...
She: Well, um okay...what is that? Model trains or something?"
He: *Opens tool shed door, revealing ropes, whips, and chains, and spanking benches.*
She: Oh my God, you are going to kill me, aren't you!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> So I went to see 50 Shades with the wife over the weekend. We were discussing how it's been so successful because of the mass appeal based on the template of Christian Grey. Basically he checks all the boxes to appeal to a wide enough segment of women to be a successful sell. Rich, young, good-looking, broken-but-salvageable, just a BIT of a d!ck, rich, pilot, rich...you get the idea. Something for everyone.


Yah but. Size? Just sayin'.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Yah but. Size? Just sayin'.


Couldn't say for sure. The movie only showed us about an inch.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

So, it's okay to be a huge **** if you have a huge ****, or if you have a huge wallet? Shallow. 

Not all bikers are ****s. The one's who are in a club can be bullies. They aren't usually bullies with women, from what I've seen in public. Generally, they are a slice of Americana and have the same characteristics as most other groups. The more psychological disorders they have, the more dysfunctional. It usually comes from their childhood, from what I've gathered. They likely feel the most like outcasts and push back the most. 

Loved that link. It's how I have felt about the movie and book.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

> Available for sex just makes me think "starfish"


Could you explain this? Hahaha.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> So, it's okay to be a huge **** if you have a huge ****, or if you have a huge wallet? Shallow.


Have you ever seen the Hot/Crazy Matrix? Apparently, it's okay to be batsh!t crazy if you're really hot. Ladies aren't cornering the market on shallow.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> Could you explain this? Hahaha.



Where she's just laying there, flat on her back, arms and legs spread sort of like...well... a starfish 


Mainly used to describe passionless, just get it over with, take one for the team, think of the queen, duty sex.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Starfishing refers to when a woman allows her husband to use her body while she's not really in to it. There's typically impatient sighing, eye-rolling, clock watching, etc. Movement is kept to an absolute minimum, and the wife resembles a human sized starfish laying on a bed.

Afterward, when the husband is unable to maintain an erection because he's not in to necrophilia, there may be snide comments thrown at the husband such as "happy now?" or "There, now you can leave me alone for another month".


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

If you catch a starfish, throw it back.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

Oh my god. Those descriptions made me laugh so much. Not because in real life its funny, but the name. Its such a bad experience that the only way to get past it is to have a ridiculous name attached to it.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> Mainly used to describe passionless, just get it over with, take one for the team, think of the queen, duty sex.


Which is not at all what Fozzy's wife had in mind when she chose "always available for sex" as part of the template.

What she was thinking of was porn star enthusiasm, always hungry for sex. Which, we've all been told time and time again *is* the template to be a desirable woman. That and "hot".


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

That's a template for a sex fantasy, sure. I'm looking more for a template in a larger scope. Remember--talking about fantasy character, not real life.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> What would be your template?


My wife. Norwegian. 6'-3" Shoots a pistol better than most men. I'm not ashamed to say that she's smarter then I am. 





Fozzy said:


> I think for men, there's such a wide range of things we find physically attractive that you can't really make that part of the template.


I agree, but I'm not convinced this isn't true for women too.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

My template is pretty Simple:

Appearance: Complete Bimbo Barbie (Big curves in the right places, Tattoos -all good, no piecing except tongue) -Not meant to be offensive but that phrase conjures up a certain mental image that is pretty accurate. 

Attitude: Cordial -with an underlying mean as all He** vibe. I just go for Bad girls. note: IME bad girls get a bad rap...they have tended to be fiercely loyal once your in their heart. 

IQ -Smart as a whip...quick witted..


Luckily -this is exactly what I married.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rowan said:


> Have you ever seen the Hot/Crazy Matrix? Apparently, it's okay to be batsh!t crazy if you're really hot. Ladies aren't cornering the market on shallow.


This one? http://youtu.be/SA2GbEdixL0 

I saw the chart. Ex2 fell into two of the danger zone categories. Red head and stylist. I thought she was a unicorn for a long time. Love red heads and stylist personalities. She dyed her hair, so that may have thrown me off a little.  Just teasing about there being a way to tell like that, but it's funny when I think about it in a light-hearted sense.


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