# Interpret this ladies....



## Undertheradar

My wife gave me her daily dose of rejection. She once again, reminded me that we're through, and how she's only here for the kids. This time she added the "I have nothing to give" comment.
So I tell my wife I had enough ... again. The ice cold reception, and the "I don't care about you" attitude has me fed up.
Anyway, we engage in another pleasant conversation, and she tells me that she evaluated our marriage, and she feels that she's done with our marriage,.... based on our past history of fighting, etc.... I reminded her that our last real fight was about 2 yrs ago. She told me the way I handled her EA, was the last straw.
Ok, I went along.
Then I tell her that I'm leaving. I remind her that I could do better than to stay with someone that has nothing to give me.
I told her I would look for a place to live tomorrow. She mentioned how it would hurt the kids. I told her I'll deal with them myself.
Then she suggested we stay together for the kid's sake, and she do whatever she can to keep me happy.
She said she doesn't love me "that way" anymore, and she has "nothing to give me" inside.
THEN...
She said she would like me to be her "booty call", and we could just live together otherwise.
She said she does not want other men, and I would fill that void.
Do you have a clue what might be going on in this woman's mind?
It almost sounds as if she's saying things to hurt as much as possible, but wants me to stay for more.


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## 827Aug

Nope, sorry. She makes about as much sense as my estranged husband does. I gave up trying to decipher that gibberish two years ago. It was futile! I really don't get the part where she isn't interested in other men, but she is interested in "booty call" with you and she has had an EA. That makes no sense.:scratchhead:

I'm not familiar with your situation, so I'm going to make a stab at a translation. Are your the primary bread winner?.....And perhaps she wants to "cake eat". She sounds like she wants to enjoy her current lifestyle without all the emotional strings attached and no commitments.


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## Trenton

Undertheradar said:


> My wife gave me her daily dose of rejection. She once again, reminded me that we're through, and how she's only here for the kids. This time she added the "I have nothing to give" comment.
> So I tell my wife I had enough ... again. The ice cold reception, and the "I don't care about you" attitude has me fed up.
> Anyway, we engage in another pleasant conversation, and she tells me that she evaluated our marriage, and she feels that she's done with our marriage,.... based on our past history of fighting, etc.... I reminded her that our last real fight was about 2 yrs ago. She told me the way I handled her EA, was the last straw.
> Ok, I went along.
> Then I tell her that I'm leaving. I remind her that I could do better than to stay with someone that has nothing to give me.
> I told her I would look for a place to live tomorrow. She mentioned how it would hurt the kids. I told her I'll deal with them myself.
> Then she suggested we stay together for the kid's sake, and she do whatever she can to keep me happy.
> She said she doesn't love me "that way" anymore, and she has "nothing to give me" inside.
> THEN...
> She said she would like me to be her "booty call", and we could just live together otherwise.
> She said she does not want other men, and I would fill that void.
> Do you have a clue what might be going on in this woman's mind?
> It almost sounds as if she's saying things to hurt as much as possible, but wants me to stay for more.


The "I have nothing to give" comment makes somewhat sense but then you lost me. I have a few questions...

Do you and her often make threats you cannot or will not keep?

Do you make her feel as if she is A W E S O M E and she still responds this way?

What I get from your tit for tat is that she wants you/needs you but that you refuse to see it and so she says things/does things in a desperate attempt to manipulate you to respond as she wants you to.

Is she the woman for you? Do you think she is the be all/end all?

What is your part in all this? History? A woman doesn't behave so irrationally without ration. So take that in. Ingest what she is saying and decide if it is as dramatic as it sounds.


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## Undertheradar

I gave it some more thought ......

Who gives a crap what she's trying to say.
Bottom line,... If you have the balls to sit here and tell a H of 15 yrs that you have nothing to give, then I should just leave.... Period.

I'm moving out.

Makes no sense replying. 
Thanks anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Undertheradar said:


> I gave it some more thought ......
> 
> Who gives a crap what she's trying to say.
> Bottom line,... If you have the balls to sit here and tell a H of 15 yrs that you have nothing to give, then I should just leave.... Period.
> 
> I'm moving out.
> 
> Makes no sense replying.
> Thanks anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I believe your wife is using and abusing you and she’s being very two faced.

You may want to consider, ponder on, your wife being the one who should leave and see what that looks like to you. That is if you’d rather be the one that leaves, or your wife is the one that leaves and you’re the one that stays. Just play about with those thoughts in your mind for a while. After all she's the one that had an affair and she’s the one who's called it quits, and then fecked with your heart and your mind.

Bob


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## Undertheradar

Bob,
We have three children. I would rather not uproot them at this time. I intend to look for a modest little place to call home for myself, and move on.
As far as the affair, she feels that I broke up a friendship of a lifetime. He was a gay dude (didn't know at the time), and she truly enjoyed texting him all day. In a three month period, they exchanged over 16,000 txts.
My wife fails to see the damage, that giving another person that amount of attention, can do to a marriage.... Gay or not gay.
After that EA ended, my marriage was over.

Now my wife is reflecting and harping on every argument we ever had, and using it as a springboard to end our marriage.
This has been going on for a couple months.

This is the end of the line for us. Marriage is a two way street. if she doesn't feel enough desire to be with her husband, then I should accept the obvious, and move on.
I've made my decision. It's best I go.


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## 827Aug

You may want to check with an attorney before you move out. This gets really tricky if your state has "abandonment" laws.


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## Jellybeans

Undertheradar said:


> Do you have a clue what might be going on in this woman's mind?


She's a wayward. Nothing she says will make sense logically.

My suggestion: DO NOT MOVE. If you guys divorce, thsi could effect the final agreement that a judge rules on. 

Call up a lawyer today and get a consultation.

Stop engaging her. If she brings up past fights and justifies her reason for wanting out (and SHE WILL) DO NOT react. Just tell her, "Look I know you want to keep discussing this but I don't. There is nothing to say anymore since our marriage is over. I will not talk about this anymore."

KAPICHE. 

DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT leave yoru home. SHE is the one who wants out, remember? SHE should be the one to leave. 

Oh and, it shouldn't have to be said but I will anyway:

NO SEX. NO cuddling, no being there for her. 

If she wanted to be with you, she would be and she is feeding you line after line after line that all = her wanting out.

Treat her like you treat a co-worker: cordial but all business. 

DO NOT engage!


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## WhiteRabbit

Jellybeans said:


> She's a wayward. Nothing she says will make sense logically.
> 
> My suggestion: DO NOT MOVE. If you guys divorce, thsi could effect the final agreement that a judge rules on.
> 
> Call up a lawyer today and get a consultation.
> 
> Stop engaging her. If she brings up past fights and justifies her reason for wanting out (and SHE WILL) DO NOT react. Just tell her, "Look I know you want to keep discussing this but I don't. There is nothing to say anymore since our marriage is over. I will not talk about this anymore."
> 
> KAPICHE.
> 
> DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT leave yoru home. SHE is the one who wants out, remember? SHE should be the one to leave.
> 
> Oh and, it shouldn't have to be said but I will anyway:
> 
> NO SEX. NO cuddling, no being there for her.
> 
> If she wanted to be with you, she would be and she is feeding you line after line after line that all = her wanting out.
> 
> Treat her like you treat a co-worker: cordial but all business.
> 
> DO NOT engage!


:iagree:


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## magnoliagal

I think she's hell bent still on punishing you for breaking up that friendship and raining on her psuedo single life. She wants her gay guy for the EA and you for sex. Sorry it doesn't work that way. Total cake eating. She sounds like just another typical wayward now.


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## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> I think she's hell bent still on punishing you for breaking up that friendship and raining on her psuedo single life. She wants her gay guy for the EA and you for sex. Sorry it doesn't work that way. Total cake eating. She sounds like just another typical wayward now.


This is something I've been saying all along. I want to believe this is the case, in the worst way.
That would give me the closure I'm looking for. I can accept this.

Last night, her eyes showed me the anger, as soon as I mentioned the EA. She denied anything more than a friendship, but clearly showed the resentment.

Over the years, "punishing" was a word I used quite often to describe her behavior when she's angry at me.
She would say and do things in a way that I've never seen or heard from anyone else in my entire life. Her behavior was viscious, and her words would always be as hurtful as possible.

Her BIG thing over the years, was her accusing me of taking away things she would enjoy. For example: If her gym schedule interfered with our kid's school schedule, I told her she should change her schedule... I was taking something away from her.
She would get so spiteful, it's scary.


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## unbelievable

This situation is easily interpreted: She's as crazy as an outhouse rat.


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## Jellybeans

Well it's cause she knows you're calling her out on her BS--you found her out...that is why she gets defensive.

But either way, who cares? Be done with her. Just like she is done.


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## WhiteRabbit

Undertheradar said:


> Her BIG thing over the years, was her accusing me of taking away things she would enjoy. For example: If her gym schedule interfered with our kid's school schedule, I told her she should change her schedule... I was taking something away from her.
> She would get so spiteful, it's scary.


ok first...boo-f**king-hoo that her poor widdle gym schedule was messed up. I freaking WISH i had the time and the energy to have a real gym schedule instead of just cramming minutes in here and there.

sarcasm aside...when you told her she should change her schedule,HOW did you tell her? Tone,attitude,facial expressions,etc... was it a light suggestion of 'well honey the kids schedule is definitely something that can't be changed so we have to change the things we have control over like going to the gym.' or was it more like, "You need to change your gym schedule and accomodate our children's school schedule. I think their school related things are more important than you going to the gym.Prioritize your time."


one makes for a different response than the other. The first way,she may not accuse you of taking away things she enjoys because it wouldnt feel that way to her. the second way makes you the dictator of her life and her schedule thus putting her on defense and giving her ammo to say you're taking away things she enjoys.


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## Undertheradar

WhiteRabbit said:


> ok first...boo-f**king-hoo that her poor widdle gym schedule was messed up. I freaking WISH i had the time and the energy to have a real gym schedule instead of just cramming minutes in here and there.
> 
> sarcasm aside...when you told her she should change her schedule,HOW did you tell her? Tone,attitude,facial expressions,etc... was it a light suggestion of 'well honey the kids schedule is definitely something that can't be changed so we have to change the things we have control over like going to the gym.' or was it more like, "You need to change your gym schedule and accomodate our children's school schedule. I think their school related things are more important than you going to the gym.Prioritize your time."
> 
> 
> one makes for a different response than the other. The first way,she may not accuse you of taking away things she enjoys because it wouldnt feel that way to her. the second way makes you the dictator of her life and her schedule thus putting her on defense and giving her ammo to say you're taking away things she enjoys.


 No, I made up that story. That was just an example.

One ACTUAL story was that I wouldn't ALLOW her to text with her EA.

Another, I'll take blame for this one...... She joined a local gym a couple years ago. It was a well known "hot spot", where men were having a field day picking up married women. A few friends of mine's wives actually quit the gym, because they couldn't take the blood hounds.
I told her I wasn't crazy about the place she chose, and I told her why. Of course, I was labeled a jealous maniac.
She eventually quit, but blamed me for it.
I'll take that one.... I just didn't feel comfortable with my wife there at the time. I let her know it, she didn't like it.
She quit, and she resented me for it.

Ok, crucify me.


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## WhiteRabbit

Undertheradar said:


> No, I made up that story. That was just an example.
> 
> One ACTUAL story was that I wouldn't ALLOW her to text with her EA.
> 
> Another, I'll take blame for this one...... She joined a local gym a couple years ago. It was a well known "hot spot", where men were having a field day picking up married women. A few friends of mine's wives actually quit the gym, because they couldn't take the blood hounds.
> I told her I wasn't crazy about the place she chose, and I told her why. Of course, I was labeled a jealous maniac.
> She eventually quit, but blamed me for it.
> I'll take that one.... I just didn't feel comfortable with my wife there at the time. I let her know it, she didn't like it.
> She quit, and she resented me for it.
> 
> Ok, crucify me.


I'm a bad one to say whether or not you were wrong on this one bc my husband NEVER had one single thread of jealousy in his whole body when it came to me. I could have gangbanged a football team and he would have been like, "Well honey...if that's what makes you happy then i'm happy as long as you've got some energy left over for me i'm cool with whatever you want baby."

UGH.
So had he said something like that to me about my gym of choice I would have felt desired and wanted...not resentful and controlled.


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## turnera

Is she a good mother overall? Does she put their needs behind hers? Do she stick them in front of a tv or video game so she can go do 'her' stuff? Is she changing herself after the EA to the point that the kids are going to suffer?


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## magnoliagal

Undertheradar said:


> Ok, crucify me.


Not from me. My husband would have done the same thing. He's isn't jealous per se but he is protective. I kinda like that about him.


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## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> Not from me. My husband would have done the same thing. He's isn't jealous per se but he is protective. I kinda like that about him.


Amazing how different people perceive things.

I was crucified for expressing my displeasure about that place.

HOWEVER, I will admit that I was terribly WRONG!
My wife DID enjoy the ladies' classes very much, and I did trust her. I just hated the "meat market" environment.
Honestly, if I had to do it again, I would have told her that I didn't care for the place, and would have dropped the issue.

Even though I was a little jealous, as soon as I saw it had a negative effect, I should have been smarter about it.

That gym is clumped into her conversation as being one of the reasons for feeling the way she feels about leaving.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Is she a good mother overall? Does she put their needs behind hers? Do she stick them in front of a tv or video game so she can go do 'her' stuff? Is she changing herself after the EA to the point that the kids are going to suffer?


She is a good mother. She does take care of the kids.
She just fell out of love with me 
Everything else is honky-dory in her life.


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## turnera

I just think it's weird that you're willing to give up day to day time with the kids so easily, unless you really are just ok with distancing yourself from them. If I were in your shoes, I would tell HER to start looking for a new place, since SHE is the one not wanting the family intact.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> I just think it's weird that you're willing to give up day to day time with the kids so easily, unless you really are just ok with distancing yourself from them. If I were in your shoes, I would tell HER to start looking for a new place, since SHE is the one not wanting the family intact.


I agree with you 100%. However, I'm not too concerned about the monetary gains or losses. I also feel very strongly about my daughters staying with their mother.

Also, the lifestyle come into play here.
My children have their friends and schools nearby. They have a good lifestyle, and I wouldn't want to take that away from them.
If her mother were to leave, a NY judge would not automatically give me custody, and therefore, my children would more than likely end up living in an apartment with their mother.
I'd prefer they stay in the house.
We live in a 4,000 square foot waterfront home. The home is valued into 7 figures. Part of any stipulation, would be the sale of the home anyway, and a division of equity.
If I were to leave, I would obviously get papers drawn first, and make sure I'm protected. Im sure she would do the same.

I say leave the kids there, until we work it out.


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## WhiteRabbit

Ny is notorious for being a "mom" state. Dads in ny get screwed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Then why don't you just slow down and not do anything for now? I just think you leaving right now, so fast, is going to be a mistake.

"Gee, I don't love you anymore."

"Ok, I'll move out. Have a great life with the kids and your new boyfriends."


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## turnera

Why do you feel strongly about them staying with their mother? What does that mean? That, in separation, you'll become a weekend dad? Or every-other weekend dad? Are you looking forward to that? You just seem to be embracing it a little too easily.

Is she a SAHM?


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## MarriedWifeInLove

My first thought - excuse my french - was beatch!

Booty call, I don't think so.

Either she wants the whole package or she gets none of it.

I agree - time to move on.

If my husband ever told me that he didn't want to try, didn't love me and only wanted me for a booty call - that would be the final straw that would kick me out the door.

The only reason I'm still there is that I know he loves me...that helps me to try and work things out and get through the issues.

But love gone - then I am.


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## Mrs.G

magnoliagal said:


> Not from me. My husband would have done the same thing. He's isn't jealous per se but he is protective. I kinda like that about him.


My husband is very protective of me. I think that this is because he is older and slightly insecure about a younger man taking me away.

Mr.G does not like me alone on the train late at night. He is uncomfortable with clothing that makes men gawk at me, such as skimpy cleavage tops and skirts under my ass. I once saw these pet peeves as controlling, but now I realize that my husband sees me as a precious gift. After all, I will tell him if he is wearing clothes that don't flatter his body or skin tone.


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## Undertheradar

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> My first thought - excuse my french - was beatch!
> 
> Booty call, I don't think so.
> 
> Either she wants the whole package or she gets none of it.
> 
> I agree - time to move on.
> 
> If my husband ever told me that he didn't want to try, didn't love me and only wanted me for a booty call - that would be the final straw that would kick me out the door.
> 
> The only reason I'm still there is that I know he loves me...that helps me to try and work things out and get through the issues.
> 
> But love gone - then I am.



Geez,... The woman told me right to my face, "I don't want to be married"
She told me she has "nothing to give"
She told me she "feels empty inside"
She told me she "only with me for the kids"
She told me "she doesn't want to see me hurt, but she knows how much it will hurt me"

Need I hear anymore?

What am I waiting for?
The epiphany?
The second coming of a deep love from my wife.

The woman doesn't love me anymore.... Period.
Why should I accept anything less for myself?

Granted, it's very difficult to walk out. I agree. And there's a good chance that I'll be here until after I speak to my attorney.

But even if I accept her arrangement to be here for the kids, how would that work?
Do we do family things together?
Do we hold hands?

FWIW..... I'm a 52 yr old very intimate, affectionate man. I am not afraid of intimacy with a woman. I love to make my woman happy.
If she isn't willing to accept the very quality trait that I pride myself on, then what is it that I have to look forward to?
Should I become a husband zombie?


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## Meerkat Hat

There are some reasons why you might want to stay for the kids...every other weekend is just not enough time and the less they see of their dad, the more troubled they become. There are studies that point to this. 

You don't need to be a zombie husband. Don't act like a husband at all. If I were you, I would be a cheerful, friendly roommate to your wife and a stellar dad. If she texts her EA, don't say anything. If she goes to the unsavory gym in red heels and lipstick, keep your lips buttoned. She's stopped being a wife, so it's not your concern what she does. Focus all of your affection on your kiddos and spend time with them together and individually. Listen to all their stories, take them fun places, teach them things. 

You don't need to hold hands. You don't need to act like anything but cordial friends. Don't let her do anything more. If she isn't going to give love. Go ahead and do family vacations while you are living at the house. The children are still your family and they deserve some sense of normalcy.

It's important to never say bad things about their mother in front of them. 

It's also important to have a conversation with your wife about your girls' best interests...that it's so important to have both their parents deeply involved in their lives. That you're going to be the best father in the world to her daughters and that should mean a lot.


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## Undertheradar

Meerkat Hat said:


> There are some reasons why you might want to stay for the kids...every other weekend is just not enough time and the less they see of their dad, the more troubled they become. There are studies that point to this.
> 
> You don't need to be a zombie husband. Don't act like a husband at all. If I were you, I would be a cheerful, friendly roommate to your wife and a stellar dad. If she texts her EA, don't say anything. If she goes to the unsavory gym in red heels and lipstick, keep your lips buttoned. She's stopped being a wife, so it's not your concern what she does. Focus all of your affection on your kiddos and spend time with them together and individually. Listen to all their stories, take them fun places, teach them things.
> 
> You don't need to hold hands. You don't need to act like anything but cordial friends. Don't let her do anything more. If she isn't going to give love. Go ahead and do family vacations while you are living at the house. The children are still your family and they deserve some sense of normalcy.
> 
> It's important to never say bad things about their mother in front of them.
> 
> It's also important to have a conversation with your wife about your girls' best interests...that it's so important to have both their parents deeply involved in their lives. That you're going to be the best father in the world to her daughters and that should mean a lot.



Your words are so right, but so difficult. The first thing i need to do, is turn myself off to my wife. Just because one partner feels a certain way, doesn't mean the other is ready.

I think I'll take your advice for now. I'll keep it cordial. I won't bring anything up anymore. As a matter of fact, I keep talking about the 180, if there was ever a time it's now.

Just a few minutes ago, she called to ask if I wanted to take a ride with her to the mall. I agreed.
By the time she got home, I realized that I shouldn't be so available. 
I'm in m y gym clothes, and guess where I'm going? 
Yep.. THAT gym.
Ef it all.
Today, I start MY life.

I'll be nice, but I don't have to babysit someone that doesn't want to be with me.


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## turnera

Become a roommate for now, unless you're trying to win her back. Let us know which way you want to go.


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## Crankshaw

Do not move out, offer to buy her a vibrator, do not engage in physical activity with her.


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## WhiteRabbit

No nookie for her.no matter how drunk and horny she gets. Tell her the c*ck is out of service for women who don't love you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Undertheradar

This is so strange.

I've decided that my home is where I belong. And if she's so unhappy, well then, the best punishment, is for her to have to live with me.

It amazes me how she makes it her business to remind me every day, how honest she's being when she tells me she has no feelings for me.
Tonight, I actually laughed at her, and told not to bother..... I got the message. We both agreed to stay for the kids. I told her I would play along... 

So crazy.... I siad to her: do you want me to leave? SHe looked at me with sad eyes, and shook her head no.
I asked her if she wanted to leave? I told her she could take all the financial security she needed. She looked at me the same way, and said no.
I said then WTF do you want... Answer, you know how I feel.
Okaaayyy.

It doesn't matter. I decided today, that it's best for me to begin the emotional break. It took a while, but I believe that my wife simply doesn't want me. Period. I'll deal with it.

I didn't believe her. I honestly thought that she was going through an identity crisis. I guess I was wrong.
She's gone. We're done.
I'll just continue to ride it out, until the pain of divorce won't be as severe.


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## turnera

Sounds like a spoiled brat to me. Is she a SAHM?


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## 4sure

You still need to see an attorney. And she needs to see a psychiatrist. It sounds to me that she doesn't know what she wants.

Playing the role of roommates gets old after awhile. Don't make a move until you consult a lawyer.


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## Undertheradar

Last night, I was playing with my kids. I was having a good time, the kids were laughing.

At one point, she looked at me, and said "I hate myself for what I'm doing" "I wish I didn't feel this way". ( another reminder)

I simply responded "sorry, I can't help you"

Tunera, 
Is SAHM a Stay at Home Mom?

If that's it, Yes.

Not sure if you recall much of the story....

My wife got her first job, since we're together, about 8 months ago. At that point, everything was fine.

As soon as she started making new friends, and new interests, she forgot she had a husband.
THEN, she became very close to some male co-worker, and started going shopping with him, lunch dates, and even asked if I would mind if they went to the movies together.
She had told me ( at the time, he was very "girlie"). I said I didn't mind her having a "best friend, even though it was a "he"). What I didn't know, is that they were texting and laughing together from 8am until midnight, ALL DAY, 7 days a week. They exchanged 16,000 texts in less than three months.

It was during THIS VERY PERIOD, that I can DIRECTLY relate to the loss of my wife's attention (obviously)
I ultimately put this text affair to an end.

However, I managed to get my hands on many texts exchanged (technology), and all they did was joke around all day about co-workers, called each other silly name like "knucklehead, and goof ball" it's almost as if my wife, became a 15 yr old again. There were NO exchanges of passion, nor did they even mention a PA, or anything related. They were acting like little kids.
So this EA, was not typical in a sense, where it could have led to a PA, it was more as if this EA, gave my wife a simple humorous fulfillment, that she wasn't getting from me.

SInce I stopped it, she's been saying and doing all the things that's been going on between us. 3 months of it, so far.

She fell in some kind of strong "feelings" her own words.

How can she love me? She HATES me for breaking them up.

I know in my heart, that's a big part of everything going on.


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## Undertheradar

4sure said:


> You still need to see an attorney. And she needs to see a psychiatrist. It sounds to me that she doesn't know what she wants.
> 
> Playing the role of roommates gets old after awhile. Don't make a move until you consult a lawyer.


I have an appointment for this monday.

I work with attorneys, getting legal advice isn't a problem.


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## magnoliagal

I'm a sahm. I'm glad you aren't moving out just yet. I've known your story but having it summed up like that makes me wonder if she isn't in mourning. She got a taste of an EA, got a taste of single life, new interests, got to forget she had a husband and kids. That's some heady stuff for a homemaker. I could see me falling into that trap easily if I wasn't careful. It's like a drug. And I've seen a few sahm's get addicted to that drug.

The reason she keeps reminding you that she has no feelings sounds almost robotic and depressed more so than as a dig towards you. You are just in the cross fire because you are the one who took her candy away.

She's in a fog just like in any other affair.


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## Meerkat Hat

_"At one point, she looked at me, and said "I hate myself for what I'm doing" "I wish I didn't feel this way". ( another reminder)

I simply responded "sorry, I can't help you"_

What you said was very good. Not engaging her emotionally is good. She's an adult and is making her choices. There is nothing you can do about her choices, so fighting her or pleading with her won't help. Keep your focus on the kids. Remind your wife how much you love the kids. This is your family and you are loving them to the best of your abilities. (the same goes for your wife, really. you wanted the best for the marriage when you objected to the emotional affair). I agree that playing the roommate gets old after a while, but playing the role of 'every other weekend dad' gets older much faster. 

It could be true that she is mourning that taste of the single life she got. Don't feel bad about objecting to the friendship. That much time and energy spent on someone outside the marriage (be it friend, sibling, child or parent) is destructive to the marriage. People need friends outside the marriage, but there is a limit as to how much time you can dedicate to those relationships and still keep your marriage healthy. 

Does she still have contact with the EA? Did you communicate that it was not the friendship you objected to but the amount of time/energy spent outside the marriage? (not that it would be a good idea now. I'm just asking).

It might be good for you to go to a counselor by yourself. You will need emotional support and advice and we're just not professionals on this forum. You may have to try a few counselors to find a good fit. If your wife ever wants to come along, be open to that, but don't invite her. 

Don't seek a random marriage counselor with your wife, either. My husband and I did premarital counseling and left our first counselor because he was downright hostile to my husband. Any issues we had were automatically my husband's fault because he was 'controlling' (Couldn't be farther from the truth). Find a good counselor on your own.


----------



## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> I'm a sahm. I'm glad you aren't moving out just yet. I've known your story but having it summed up like that makes me *wonder if she isn't in mourning*. She got a taste of an EA, got a taste of single life, new interests, got to forget she had a husband and kids. That's some heady stuff for a homemaker. I could see me falling into that trap easily if I wasn't careful. It's like a drug. And I've seen a few sahm's get addicted to that drug.
> 
> The reason she keeps reminding you that she has no feelings sounds almost robotic and depressed more so than as a dig towards you. You are just in the cross fire because you are the one who took her candy away.
> 
> *She's in a fog just like in any other affair*.



Yep, I think she is.

The timing of all this is more than coincidental.

This behavior started the day I broke the EA.


----------



## Undertheradar

Meerkat Hat said:


> _"At one point, she looked at me, and said "I hate myself for what I'm doing" "I wish I didn't feel this way". ( another reminder)
> 
> I simply responded "sorry, I can't help you"_
> 
> What you said was very good. Not engaging her emotionally is good. She's an adult and is making her choices. There is nothing you can do about her choices, so fighting her or pleading with her won't help. Keep your focus on the kids. Remind your wife how much you love the kids. This is your family and you are loving them to the best of your abilities. (the same goes for your wife, really. you wanted the best for the marriage when you objected to the emotional affair). I agree that playing the roommate gets old after a while, but playing the role of 'every other weekend dad' gets older much faster.
> 
> It could be true that she is mourning that taste of the single life she got. Don't feel bad about objecting to the friendship. That much time and energy spent on someone outside the marriage (be it friend, sibling, child or parent) is destructive to the marriage. People need friends outside the marriage, but there is a limit as to how much time you can dedicate to those relationships and still keep your marriage healthy.
> 
> *Does she still have contact with the EA? Did you communicate that it was not the friendship you objected to but the amount of time/energy spent outside the marriage? (not that it would be a good idea now. I'm just asking).*
> 
> It might be good for you to go to a counselor by yourself. You will need emotional support and advice and we're just not professionals on this forum. You may have to try a few counselors to find a good fit. If your wife ever wants to come along, be open to that, but don't invite her.
> 
> Don't seek a random marriage counselor with your wife, either. My husband and I did premarital counseling and left our first counselor because he was downright hostile to my husband. Any issues we had were automatically my husband's fault because he was 'controlling' (Couldn't be farther from the truth). Find a good counselor on your own.



That's the bad part.. They still work together. They are still friends, but do not text, nor do they pursue the friendship. They say hello to each other, they talk at work, but no more lovey dovey talk.
He's scared crap of me, and that's why she hates me for this. There is NO WAY, he's coming near her.
He met the worst, scariest side of me, alive and in person. He got the message.... whether he's girlie or not.

I walked into job, and saw them talking. I confronted both, and she explained that they made peace, because they have to work together. I gave them my blessing. I told them to be friends, It was OK with me.
I figured I'd give them rope to hang themselves.


She feels controlled, and she hates me for it.

I know what's going on here. If he wasn't there to remind her everyday, she'd be OK.
She took a week off, and she was the wife of old. She went back to work, and she remembered everything.


----------



## magnoliagal

I don't think it's that she feels controlled I still say it's because it's because you took away her "fun".

Why can't she get a new job?


----------



## Trenton

You type Period a lot.

I think if you can't answer the questions I asked you're hardly in it anymore than she is.

You ask for an interpretation but what you really want to do is rant about how horrible your wife is.

I get that you're confused and hurt but I don't feel your wife had an EA. I feel she had a LA (life assessment) and in doing so she recognized that she feels she was short changed. Whether or not she was actually short changed matters little at this point until she's willing to see what's going on for what it actually is.

In the meantime, she obviously feels you're directly responsible for short changing her life.

You can talk to attorneys, seek solace and support in strangers who call her crazy or work directly with her to rebuild your lives full of change...the kind of change that is positive and doesn't involve clinking around at the bottom of a purse.


----------



## Undertheradar

Trenton said:


> You type Period a lot.
> 
> I think if you can't answer the questions I asked you're hardly in it anymore than she is.
> 
> You ask for an interpretation but what you really want to do is rant about how horrible your wife is.
> 
> I get that you're confused and hurt but I don't feel your wife had an EA. I feel she had a LA (life assessment) and in doing so she recognized that she feels she was short changed. Whether or not she was actually short changed matters little at this point until she's willing to see what's going on for what it actually is.
> 
> In the meantime, she obviously feels you're directly responsible for short changing her life.
> 
> You can talk to attorneys, seek solace and support in strangers who call her crazy or work directly with her to rebuild your lives full of change...the kind of change that is positive and doesn't involve clinking around at the bottom of a purse.


You could be right about her. I don't think she had an EA, what she did do, is make a friend that consumed 20 hours a day of laughter away from her marriage.

As far as ranting about my bad wife. .. That's not true. I'm sick over this, and trying my hardest to analyze the situation. Something happened, and I honestly don't know what it is.
All I know is that my wife, wants something out of her life, but it does not include what she's had for 15 years.

As soon as she got this job, and as soon as she made her "friend", she was gone.

Could it be a LA? Sure can. How can I know this? 

She came home the day I ended her NON- EA, 16,000 text marathon over 2.5 months, and told me our marriage was over.
What would you think?

I type "period" a lot out of frustration.

I love my wife. I look at her, and desire her in ways, many women wish their men would. But it hurts, knowing that she's willing to stay with me, but it's an empty presence.
At this point, I've decided that it's best I give up. I honestly don't feel as if I have a chance, and for whatever reasons she has, it's time I simply accept it.
Whether or not I like the current situation is irrelevant. It will play itself out in the long run.

I never thought I'd have to force myself to fall out of love with my wife. It seems like the only solution.


----------



## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> I don't think it's that she feels controlled I still say it's because it's because you took away her "fun".
> 
> Why can't she get a new job?



She told a friend of hers exactly that.
She said she was only having fun, and I took it away from her.

She likes her job. If WE BOTH wanted to save our marriage, getting a new job would probably be an option. But since her heart is already gone, why bother. I have no say so in the matter anyway.

We spent all day together. It was like being on a date with a strange woman, and knowing that she doesn't like you.
Very odd.
I'm not too sure, I have the inner strength to give her what she wants. I'm having a very hard time, emotionally with looking at her, and knowing how she feels.


----------



## magnoliagal

Ok you've seriously got to quit taking this so personally. She's a bored housewife who got a taste of life and is now pouting because reality (you) came and reminded her she had a husband and kids. This isn't really about you it's about her. Trust me I've been where she is and while yes her resentment is aimed at you she's also stuck and she knows it.

If she truly wanted that life why is she still with you? Why hasn't she packed her bags and left? She knows she's being a brat but she can't stop it just yet. She's not done mourning. It's not about you. It's about reality/life. And yes sometimes it sucks. Time to put on the big girl panties and grow up. She's just fighting it that's all.


----------



## heartbroken1957

UnderRadar, don't give up on the marriage yet. You said when she took a week off you seen the old her. So that her is still buried there somewhere. Everything else as I see it, you are right on. Seems I'm just the opposite of your story. We are 17 mths in and I am weekly finding things to forgive myself and others for. Kind of a soul cleansing of myself, during this journey. 
I believe she is depressed quite a bit and was in that condition proir to getting the job. the job was the fix for it, but actually the wrong medication. A Job would have only fixed things for a short term. The friendship was the extra pill that kept the fix working. You both need to go together to your MD and talk about depression. The Dr. can recommend meds to see if it helps her and it usually takes a couple different ones till you find one that fits. It will take a month for her body to start showing the benifits and she may not really notice much for a few more months. Adjustments in the amount of meds and yearly checks will be needed. 
I fought long and hard avoiding the label of "Depression" but it's not just depression, stress, is the real culprit in the label. I have anxiety attacks which were outrageous. I once sat on the phone with my Dr.s partner for 40 mins in the middle of the night because the meds were not working yet. I felt horrible in the morning for that. The man missed sleep because I was freaked out. LOL I can laugh now but he was a blessing then. 

I wish I could convince my husband to get on meds for the stress and depression he is going through. He lost his job 4 mths after the affair. So having no income and with unemployment running out he has a lot on his plate. Of course so do I, but my pills help. 

Get her to see the Dr. with you. Explain things you see that pertain to depression. You don't have to tell about the affair. She can mention it if she finds it will help.


----------



## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> I'm a sahm. I'm glad you aren't moving out just yet. I've known your story but having it summed up like that makes me wonder if she isn't in mourning. She got a taste of an EA, got a taste of single life, new interests, got to forget she had a husband and kids. That's some heady stuff for a homemaker. I could see me falling into that trap easily if I wasn't careful. It's like a drug. And I've seen a few sahm's get addicted to that drug.
> 
> The reason she keeps reminding you that she has no feelings sounds almost robotic and depressed more so than as a dig towards you. You are just in the cross fire because you are the one who took her candy away.
> 
> She's in a fog just like in any other affair.





magnoliagal said:


> Ok you've seriously got to quit taking this so personally. She's a bored housewife who got a taste of life and is now pouting because reality (you) came and reminded her she had a husband and kids. This isn't really about you it's about her. Trust me I've been where she is and while yes her resentment is aimed at you she's also stuck and she knows it.
> 
> If she truly wanted that life why is she still with you? Why hasn't she packed her bags and left? She knows she's being a brat but she can't stop it just yet. She's not done mourning. It's not about you. It's about reality/life. And yes sometimes it sucks. Time to put on the big girl panties and grow up. She's just fighting it that's all.


You are absolutely 100% right!!
I am NOT taking it personal, I came here to get opinions, and suggestions, on what MIGHT BE the cause of her actions.
The story has taken a whole new shape, since I first mentioned the EA.... Which may not be an EA after all.

Magnolia, 
I've been suspecting everything you're saying. I truly believe that she's mourning her EA, too.
Of course, if I didn't come to this forum, I never would have known a damn thing about EA's and mourning, now would I?


----------



## Undertheradar

heartbroken1957 said:


> UnderRadar, don't give up on the marriage yet. You said when she took a week off you seen the old her. So that her is still buried there somewhere. Everything else as I see it, you are right on. Seems I'm just the opposite of your story. We are 17 mths in and I am weekly finding things to forgive myself and others for. Kind of a soul cleansing of myself, during this journey.
> I believe she is depressed quite a bit and was in that condition proir to getting the job. the job was the fix for it, but actually the wrong medication. A Job would have only fixed things for a short term. The friendship was the extra pill that kept the fix working. You both need to go together to your MD and talk about depression. The Dr. can recommend meds to see if it helps her and it usually takes a couple different ones till you find one that fits. It will take a month for her body to start showing the benifits and she may not really notice much for a few more months. Adjustments in the amount of meds and yearly checks will be needed.
> I fought long and hard avoiding the label of "Depression" but it's not just depression, stress, is the real culprit in the label. I have anxiety attacks which were outrageous. I once sat on the phone with my Dr.s partner for 40 mins in the middle of the night because the meds were not working yet. I felt horrible in the morning for that. The man missed sleep because I was freaked out. LOL I can laugh now but he was a blessing then.
> 
> I wish I could convince my husband to get on meds for the stress and depression he is going through. He lost his job 4 mths after the affair. So having no income and with unemployment running out he has a lot on his plate. Of course so do I, but my pills help.
> 
> Get her to see the Dr. with you. Explain things you see that pertain to depression. You don't have to tell about the affair. She can mention it if she finds it will help.


We did have this conversation, and she feels that her feelings are for real, and not influenced in any way by her depression.

I understand anxiety very well, I suffered from it many years ago, and learned to recognize the symptoms. I beat the attacks with diet, exercise, and an overall strong will.

What happened with my wife caught me by surprise, and that''s why I may have over reacted.

FWIW...... I'm approaching a state of inner peace. I've accepted whatever reasons she has, and have made a FIRM decision to back off. She said enough to hurt. I want it no more.

I'm staying here at my home. She's out with the girlfriends, having a card game. I'm going out tonight with the guys. The kids are accounted for. And I'm feeling happy.

Let her have her fun. I'm not angry.


----------



## Trenton

When you're in a feeling it feels real that's why it's called a feeling. It is real to her. If you want to remain married to her, if you love her then you've got to put in the work to understand her and try to help her understand her as well.

I'm not suggesting she's innocent or that your feelings aren't also valid, certainly they are. All I'm suggesting is that vilifying her and looking the other way may simplify things in the short-term but they won't solve them in the long-term or save your marriage.

You've got to get to her and you've got to do it in earnest with a willingness to see how she really feels without blame involved. You have to find a way to re-connect and build something newly beautiful, exciting and mutually satisfying.


----------



## Undertheradar

Trenton said:


> When you're in a feeling it feels real that's why it's called a feeling. It is real to her. If you want to remain married to her, if you love her then you've got to put in the work to understand her and try to help her understand her as well.
> 
> I'm not suggesting she's innocent or that your feelings aren't also valid, certainly they are. All I'm suggesting is that vilifying her and looking the other way may simplify things in the short-term but they won't solve them in the long-term or save your marriage.
> 
> You've got to get to her and you've got to do it in earnest with a willingness to see how she really feels without blame involved. You have to find a way to re-connect and build something newly beautiful, exciting and mutually satisfying.




Trent,
I've been trying to reconnect for three months. I've been on an emotional roller coaster ride as well. I know what she feels is real. She feels that she doesn't want to be married, and there's no turning back for her. 

Today is Monday morning, and I just finished spending an entire weekend together. I can't tell you how sad I feel today.
I can't describe how horrible it feels, to spend the weekend as a family, and yet feeling so isolated. She has turned off every emotion towards me, and only me.
She was online last nigh with a different male co worker. She was laughing, giggling, and having a great time. I sat there in the same room, just realizing that my relationship with my wife wont be repaired. She can't find the emotion to say two words to me.
I'm not taking anything personal either, but I have to be real, and accept that i may have done this.

As i said earlier, I'm not going anywhere. I'm not saying anything anymore.I'll just go through the motions, and do the best I can..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Cancel the internet. If she wants to contact affair partners online, SHE can pay for it. Or put a lock on it that she has to get opened by you to use. When she balks, just shrug and say 'I'm not paying for you to cheat on me. If you want to contact other men while you're married, you can fund it yourself.'

She NEEDS to see you standing up for the marriage.

And btw, you can have an EA with FOOD. A PET. A BOOK. An EA is anything that takes you away from your marriage and makes you feel your marriage is worthless compared to that item. It has nothing to do with sex.


----------



## WhiteRabbit

turnera said:


> Cancel the internet. If she wants to contact affair partners online, SHE can pay for it. Or put a lock on it that she has to get opened by you to use. When she balks, just shrug and say 'I'm not paying for you to cheat on me. If you want to contact other men while you're married, you can fund it yourself.'
> 
> She NEEDS to see you standing up for the marriage.
> 
> And btw, you can have an EA with FOOD. A PET. A BOOK. An EA is anything that takes you away from your marriage and makes you feel your marriage is worthless compared to that item. It has nothing to do with sex.


SO true Turnera.So freaking true. on ALL counts.


----------



## Trenton

Undertheradar said:


> Trent,
> I've been trying to reconnect for three months. I've been on an emotional roller coaster ride as well. I know what she feels is real. She feels that she doesn't want to be married, and there's no turning back for her.
> 
> Today is Monday morning, and I just finished spending an entire weekend together. I can't tell you how sad I feel today.
> I can't describe how horrible it feels, to spend the weekend as a family, and yet feeling so isolated. She has turned off every emotion towards me, and only me.
> She was online last nigh with a different male co worker. She was laughing, giggling, and having a great time. I sat there in the same room, just realizing that my relationship with my wife wont be repaired. She can't find the emotion to say two words to me.
> I'm not taking anything personal either, but I have to be real, and accept that i may have done this.
> 
> As i said earlier, I'm not going anywhere. I'm not saying anything anymore.I'll just go through the motions, and do the best I can..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I disagree with turning off the internet. It will only cause more resentment and you've stated that resentment is already there. She is a grown adult who has contributed to the household for fifteen years. Treating her like a child should not be an option.

I will also say that although I agree that you can have an emotional affair with anything, on these boards it is almost always associated with another person and in this post it was associated with another person.

Your wife is on the edge of doing something really stupid that will destroy the lives you've built together but right now it appears to me that she is only flirting with the idea of destruction and rawly voicing her feelings with you rather than pretending they're not there. Most likely she was having these feelings for a long time but was voicing them scantily and feeling unheard or wouldn't allow herself to feel them causing her joy at what she thinks she wants to be magnified.

I don't think you should do nothing. I don't see why you should have to suffer for her joy when her joy is your source of pain. It's not a partnership then and it's not right that you should feel that upset by someone who is supposed to be sharing their life with you.

All I'm suggesting is to face her and recognize how she feels. Recognize her feelings and the source of her feelings directly to her. Be clear about the good things and times you've had over fifteen years and be clear that she is jeopardizing all of that so that she can feel the way she does now. Explain to her that you feel unloved & short changed by the choices she making now. Then refuse to tolerate it. You cannot control her actions but you can control your own and you don't for one moment deserve to be in a loveless, painful relationship.

I don't recommend playing the games of 180 or man up that dictates you should find yourself while manipulating your wife to change her affections towards you through becoming distant and aloof, but I do think you deserve a chance to enjoy your life. She wants to be on the internet all day giggling and laughing then you do something you want to do all day and make it clear to her that this is exactly what you're doing.

Take your children and enjoy your time together. Create a family that excludes her as she's obviously down with excluding you for her own gain. Plan a road trip without her and enjoy every minute with your kids. Tell her that she will one day turn around and all that you know she truly loves will be gone because strong relationships and families take constant work and dedication.

Be honest with her. Tell her you seek solace in the internet too. That you talk to strangers with similar stories who are lonely and think about establishing intimacy because she has shut you out. That you long to be touched by a woman and return the touch and that you're miserable having to live this life with her right now because she can't accept the legitimacy of your fifteen years together. Tell her that you, too, think about ending the relationship and are unhappy with where things are. Then add that you have hope that if she returned to you that you could work through this together.

She is being a selfish person right now but I do not think this means she doesn't love you or can't change or should erase who and what she was for the past fifteen years. It means she needs a wake up call and clear reminder of what she truly loves and what is important. 

In the meantime you need to set clear boundaries and establish what you will tolerate and won't tolerate and stick with it. Set a time period and let her know about it. If she's still ignoring your needs and obliterating your connection to each other at the end of that time period, move further forward without her.


----------



## turnera

Trenton said:


> I disagree with turning off the internet. It will only cause more resentment and you've stated that resentment is already there. She is a grown adult who has contributed to the household for fifteen years. Treating her like a child should not be an option.


Another option would be for him to actually say something to her while she sits right NEXT to him and chats up another guy, but it doesn't look like he's going to do that, either.



> I will also say that although I agree that you can have an emotional affair with anything, on these boards it is almost always associated with another person and in this post it was associated with another person.


I posted that because he was arguing about whether she could be having an EA, given that the guy is gay.

I agree with the rest of your post.


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Cancel the internet. If she wants to contact affair partners online, SHE can pay for it. Or put a lock on it that she has to get opened by you to use. When she balks, just shrug and say 'I'm not paying for you to cheat on me. If you want to contact other men while you're married, you can fund it yourself.'
> 
> She NEEDS to see you standing up for the marriage.
> 
> And btw, you can have an EA with FOOD. A PET. A BOOK. An EA is anything that takes you away from your marriage and makes you feel your marriage is worthless compared to that item. It has nothing to do with sex.


I'll explain a bit more. This other co-worker is ok by me. He's married, partially handicapped, and has a daughter with cancer. I met him and his family through my wife a few months ago. I gave them clothes for their children, a new computer, and assisted them with food. I don't feel threatened by him at all.
My ONLY issue, is her ability to enjoy her life with someone else. I wouldn't feel as I do, if I wasn't the only one left out of the jokes. I feel like a little kid watching all my friends play, and I'm not allowed to join the fun.
'This also showed me what exactly took place with the other co worker a few months back.

I honestly feel as if it's time I drop this whole thing. 
Someone metioned earlier in the thread, that my wife may have had a life assessment. This may be true in a sense. It's starting to look as if she got her job, made some new friends, saw that she could laugh and enjoy life away from home, and realized that that life is more fun that what she has.
I'm willing to accept that, if that's what happened. And it's sure looking as if that's exactly what happened.
And that's also why she resents me so much for breaking up the other EA.

My wife does not REALIZE that she's in and was in a EA, and she's emotionally neglecting me.

Sooner or later, I will shut down. It's just that when you're the recipient, it's that much harder to do.

I love you guys.
You have all been my anchor, and have given me such an education.


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Cancel the internet. If she wants to contact affair partners online, SHE can pay for it. Or put a lock on it that she has to get opened by you to use. When she balks, just shrug and say 'I'm not paying for you to cheat on me. If you want to contact other men while you're married, you can fund it yourself.'
> 
> She NEEDS to see you standing up for the marriage.
> 
> And btw, you can have an EA with FOOD. A PET. A BOOK. An EA is anything that takes you away from your marriage and makes you feel your marriage is worthless compared to that item. It has nothing to do with sex.





Trenton said:


> I disagree with turning off the internet. It will only cause more resentment and you've stated that resentment is already there. She is a grown adult who has contributed to the household for fifteen years. Treating her like a child should not be an option.
> 
> I will also say that although I agree that you can have an emotional affair with anything, on these boards it is almost always associated with another person and in this post it was associated with another person.
> 
> Your wife is on the edge of doing something really stupid that will destroy the lives you've built together but right now it appears to me that she is only flirting with the idea of destruction and rawly voicing her feelings with you rather than pretending they're not there. Most likely she was having these feelings for a long time but was voicing them scantily and feeling unheard or wouldn't allow herself to feel them causing her joy at what she thinks she wants to be magnified.
> 
> I don't think you should do nothing. I don't see why you should have to suffer for her joy when her joy is your source of pain. It's not a partnership then and it's not right that you should feel that upset by someone who is supposed to be sharing their life with you.
> 
> All I'm suggesting is to face her and recognize how she feels. Recognize her feelings and the source of her feelings directly to her. Be clear about the good things and times you've had over fifteen years and be clear that she is jeopardizing all of that so that she can feel the way she does now. Explain to her that you feel unloved & short changed by the choices she making now. Then refuse to tolerate it. You cannot control her actions but you can control your own and you don't for one moment deserve to be in a loveless, painful relationship.
> 
> I don't recommend playing the games of 180 or man up that dictates you should find yourself while manipulating your wife to change her affections towards you through becoming distant and aloof, but I do think you deserve a chance to enjoy your life. She wants to be on the internet all day giggling and laughing then you do something you want to do all day and make it clear to her that this is exactly what you're doing.
> 
> Take your children and enjoy your time together. Create a family that excludes her as she's obviously down with excluding you for her own gain. Plan a road trip without her and enjoy every minute with your kids. Tell her that she will one day turn around and all that you know she truly loves will be gone because strong relationships and families take constant work and dedication.
> 
> Be honest with her. Tell her you seek solace in the internet too. That you talk to strangers with similar stories who are lonely and think about establishing intimacy because she has shut you out. That you long to be touched by a woman and return the touch and that you're miserable having to live this life with her right now because she can't accept the legitimacy of your fifteen years together. Tell her that you, too, think about ending the relationship and are unhappy with where things are. Then add that you have hope that if she returned to you that you could work through this together.
> 
> She is being a selfish person right now but I do not think this means she doesn't love you or can't change or should erase who and what she was for the past fifteen years. It means she needs a wake up call and clear reminder of what she truly loves and what is important.
> 
> In the meantime you need to set clear boundaries and establish what you will tolerate and won't tolerate and stick with it. Set a time period and let her know about it. If she's still ignoring your needs and obliterating your connection to each other at the end of that time period, move further forward without her.


Trenton,

I just want to say that you are LOCKED into what I'm feeling 100%

Anyway, my little girl is having field day at the park. I'm attending. So I'll be back in a few hours.

I'll address your response then.


----------



## turnera

Do some research and find the most succinct, accurate description of an EA that you can find. Print it out. Hand it to her. Say 'this is why I am upset at what's happening, and this is why I felt obligated to stop what you and X had going on, harmless or not. I hope you can recognize it for what it is. What can we do to let you have the new, exciting life you feel like you missed out on, while still being married? What can we do so that BOTH of us are getting a fulfilling life, together? If nothing else, then for the sake of our kids?'


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Do some research and find the most succinct, accurate description of an EA that you can find. Print it out. Hand it to her. Say 'this is why I am upset at what's happening, and this is why I felt obligated to stop what you and X had going on, harmless or not. I hope you can recognize it for what it is. What can we do to let you have the new, exciting life you feel like you missed out on, while still being married? What can we do so that BOTH of us are getting a fulfilling life, together? If nothing else, then for the sake of our kids?'


I did this, and it fueled her anger even more. 

I'm reading my own replies, and it's very easy to come across as some insecure, jealous nut. It's very difficult to clearly describe what's going on here. 
The way I see it, is my wife made these silly, goofy younger guy friends. They made her laugh all day, and she went back for more. The texts IMHO, were excessive and it pulled her EMOTIONALLY away from her partner. 
By stopping it, I believe that she feels I took fun away from her. 
Last nights round with this other guy was harmless fun. What got to me, is when I see a seemingly unhappy person, suddenly become very happy. 
I found that very disturbing and yes, I took it personal. 

This morning she asked me if I got mad last night. I told her that i now see what went on for three months Her answer was.... SEE, I told you it was harmless fun, and not anything more. I reminded her that having fun like that is ok. Doing for 20 hours a day, then asking to end your marriage over stopping it , was not ok. 
I'm really getting fed up with talking about it. 

I want to let go, in the worst way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jellybeans

Sorry but someone texting someone else 16,000 times a month is not a normal "friendship."


----------



## Undertheradar

Jellybeans said:


> Sorry but someone texting someone else 16,000 times a month is not a normal "friendship."


Agree, but she refuses to see it that way. 
Not much more I could do.

She cried when it ended. Then told me 10 minutes later, she wanted out. 
Not too hard to figure this one out, is it)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Let her out.


----------



## turnera

IMO, she needs to see what life on her own is like, because she has this fantasy about what she lost out on. Doesn't mean she'll come back, but you don't want her back at this stage in her state of mind anyway.


----------



## Undertheradar

WhiteRabbit said:


> what you need to know is,why couldn't she have that fun,jolly demeanor with you? why is it so much easier for her to be carefree and happy with coworkers than with her husband?
> if she were as happy and content during her time with you as she is with her male friends, you wouldn't have had a reason to cut her contact with them bc you wouldn't have had a reason to feel threatened.


My dear WR,
You have managed to reach into the depths of my mind, and say exactly what I feel. 
Bingo. 

She is acting like an asshle
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> IMO, she needs to see what life on her own is like, because she has this fantasy about what she lost out on. Doesn't mean she'll come back, but you don't want her back at this stage in her state of mind anyway.


It's coming. 
Just has to play out. 
She made up HER mind. I'm not quite there yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jellybeans

Undertheradar said:


> Agree, but she refuses to see it that way.


Oh she does, she just doesn't admit it to herself or to you. That is bad news. 

Move on.


----------



## Undertheradar

She did admit it to her best friend. ( got this via VAR) early on. She said that she realizes it was excessive, but it was just a friendship, and she was just having harmless fun. 
She also said that she wanted out, so she can enjoy that type of fun, without being told it was wrong. 

She also said that she doesn't want to hurt me, that's why she not leaving.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jellybeans

She is hurting you by stringing you along.


----------



## Undertheradar

Jellybeans said:


> She is hurting you by stringing you along.


Yep, but she's also getting a free ride. And she knows this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jellybeans

So stop the ride. Turn it off and tell her to get off. You are moving the ride elsewhere and she's not invited to the carnival.

Goodbye.


----------



## Undertheradar

WhiteRabbit said:


> ugh it's frustrating that she can't/wont' understand the ONLY reason she was "cut off" from her fun is bc she was and is excluding you from that fun and basically strapping bombs to the foundation of an otherwise solid marriage.
> 
> she wants to villainize you so she doesn't have to take any of the responsibility.
> 
> didn't someone on another thread point out that when a woman cheats or has an ea she always paints her husband to be controlling,abusive,mean,uncaring,and a whole slew of negative character traits?? SOOOO typical. they paint this picture of their husband's to take the spotlight off their actions.


So true. That's how I feel. 
And yes, I read the same thread as you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

Until you stand up for yourself and stop being her doormat, you expect to be in the same spot w/ her.


----------



## Undertheradar

Jellybeans said:


> Until you stand up for yourself and stop being her doormat, you expect to be in the same spot w/ her.


I honestly don't know how to do this, without uprooting everybody.

I want to leave, and get away from everything going on, but I also wonder if she'll wake up, and see the damage that's been done.

She didn't have a PA, so there's room for forgiveness. Whether or not I can forgive her for what she's putting me through, is another story.

I don't know how to be mean, I'm sorry.


----------



## Jellybeans

WhiteRabbit said:


> I don't know how to be mean, I'm sorry.


Letting someone know you respect yourself enough not to be a doormat "being mean." It's enforcing boundaries.

Remember, if you don't respect yourself, nobody else will.


----------



## Undertheradar

Jellybeans said:


> Letting someone know you respect yourself enough not to be a doormat "being mean." It's enforcing boundaries.
> 
> Remember, if you don't respect yourself, nobody else will.


Hey, I'm here, because I didn't know how to handle my situation. And that reason still stands 

Do you honestly think I ever heard of an EA or a PA before?
I have 15 years of good habits embedded in my soul. I do have respect for myself..... Just never expected her to have so little respect for me.


----------



## Runs like Dog

16000/month is 44/hr 12hrs a day 7 days a week.


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## Undertheradar

Runs like Dog said:


> 16000/month is 44/hr 12hrs a day 7 days a week.


16k over a three month period.
A little over 5K a month


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## turnera

Have you read the book Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud and Townsend? That's a good place to start learning how to enforce your boundaries _lovingly_.


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## Undertheradar

This woman will never accept boundaries. She wouldn't respect not talking to a co worker for 20 hours a day, and you think she'll respond to boundaries?
Never happen. We never had rules, and we were happy. 
She found a new world, and she's living it. That's all
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Undertheradar

WhiteRabbit said:


> You protest too much...I get the vibe that you are trying hard to fool yourself into believing you've done everything you can possibly do to fix your end of the marriage.I also feel you are pushing yourself to stop feeling things for her so you don't fall apart over this.
> 
> 
> Have you truly given up on her? OR are you trying to convince yourself you've given up so her rejection doesn't hurt as much?You don't have to answer that...just putting it out there for thought.


Oh, I 'll answer. I stepped into the lion's den, and I'll face the music.
I didn't come here to be pacified.

No, I have NOT given up on her. I think she may be going through something, and could wake up.
And before you jump all over that answer, YES, I do think I may be a bit naive to think that. So I'm just as confused.

Yes, I'm trying to convince myself that giving up is the only answer. There's always that little bit of hope that it'll end, but if after three months of hearing that "She's not sure what she wants", you'd think I'd get it.

I'm not sure I've done everything to fix my marriage. i'm still trying to figure what went wrong.

And finally, YES....my defense mechanism is kicking in to protect myself from the hurt of rejection.

I know in my heart that it's over. I'm hoping that in time, it'll become so played out, that it won't hurt as much.
That's why I'm sticking around...

1).. Hoping that maybe, just maybe she'll turn around. But I honestly don't see that happening.

2).. Hoping that I get so fed up with the pain she's putting me through, that I'll accept the inevitable much easier.

In case you're wondering what pain..... It's just the pain of hearing that a person simply doesn't want to be with you anymore.

I honestly wish she had a PA. I never wold have looked back. I couldn't live with that. But an EA with the dork she was talking too, was not enough to convince me.


----------



## Undertheradar

WhiteRabbit said:


> I'm sorry
> 
> There are no easy solutions or answers for what you're feeling. Nothing about this is cut n dry.


Ah yes... Now we get it 

It sucks.

Listen to this nonsense......

Just called me to thank me for helping her today. She had a busy work schedule, and I juggled to make sure my little girls was accounted for at her field trip today. At the end of the conversation, I get "I don't know what I'd do without you" BS.
I told her, she was about to find out real soon.
She says ILY,and hangs up.
WTF is this maniac doing?

FWIW..... Many may think I'm obsessed with this and her. I'm not, trust me. I come HERE to talk about it. I don't even call her anymore. She asked me before, why I don't call her anymore... I made like I didn't hear her.


----------



## turnera

Undertheradar said:


> This woman will never accept boundaries. She wouldn't respect not talking to a co worker for 20 hours a day, and you think she'll respond to boundaries?
> Never happen. We never had rules, and we were happy.
> She found a new world, and she's living it. That's all
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 You don't understand what a boundary is (pst: go read the book). 

A boundary is what YOU enforce around YOURSELF.

"If you raise your voice to me, I will leave the room."

What YOU will accept, and what YOU will do if the other person ignores the boundary.


----------



## turnera

Undertheradar said:


> She asked me before, why I don't call her anymore... I made like I didn't hear her.


You missed a good opportunity to explain your boundary to her. "You treat me like an employee rather than your husband, so I have removed myself from your presence until you can see me for what I am."


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> You missed a good opportunity to explain your boundary to her. "You treat me like an employee rather than your husband, so I have removed myself from your presence until you can see me for what I am."


OMG, I have to read the book. I feel that I need to learn to handle myself much better at the moment.


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> You don't understand what a boundary is (pst: go read the book).
> 
> A boundary is what YOU enforce around YOURSELF.
> 
> "If you raise your voice to me, I will leave the room."
> 
> What YOU will accept, and what YOU will do if the other person ignores the boundary.


I've already set this boundary


----------



## turnera

Boundary = teaching people how to treat us

Good for you for learning.


----------



## Jellybeans

turnera said:


> Have you read the book Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud and Townsend?





Undertheradar said:


> This woman will never accept boundaries


Focus on the chapter that is called "The Boundary-Resistant Spouse."


----------



## turnera

It's best to keep to one thread, so people can see your whole history and give better advice. Where is it?


----------



## magnoliagal

Undertheradar said:


> OMG, I have to read the book. I feel that I need to learn to handle myself much better at the moment.


I have their general boundary book and it's really good. So I second that recommendation.


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> It's best to keep to one thread, so people can see your whole history and give better advice. Where is it?



OK, here's what happened:
Well after hearing for three months how empty, and out of love my wife was, I exploded like a F*cking volcano!

I've been holding it in, and using this board to contain my emotions. I am typically not a soft guy. I am not afraid of anyone, never was, and nor am I the type to hold back my words.

Whatever it is happened in my marriage, has caused me to turn to mush. I realized that she had me by the corleones, and was playing me like a violin.

Here's what happened:

We take a ride to her job. She (of course) wanted me to wait in the truck, I chose to go get a cup of coffee in Starbucks (in the Walmart). She gave me attitude about going in there. When I got back to the truck, I went ape sh*t nuts. It was at that very moment, that I had heard enough.

I was like a rabid animal all the way home.

We got home, I told her she could take her empty heart, and lack of love and shove it. I told her I was through with her game, and will give her what she wants... And that is to be alone.

Tonight, I sat her down, and told her i was at the end of her rope. Three months of living with a person so adamant about breaking up her marriage, was enough for me.
Her attitude, was cold. She really doesn't care.
She told me to handle it any way I wanted to. She confirmed that she wants out, I confirmed that I waited long enough. 

I told her I would prefer to sell the house, and move on. And she agreed.

I know this isn't what I truly wanted ( I admit), but half hearted marriages don't work. This woman. plain and simple doesn't love me. It's time to move on.

I need to stay strong.
I need to stay strong.
I need to stay strong.
I need to stay strong.

And yes, that's me in my avatar.


----------



## Deejo

Ape sh*t nuts isn't going to help you. Not ever. I get it trust me, I know the feeling you are talking about, but it does not, and will not ever serve you well.

So ... now I'm going to suggest doing the thing that Trenton finds fault with. You need to detach from this woman. Both emotionally and physically. This is for you ... not her. You need to find your feet so that you DO NOT go ape sh*t every time YOU allow her to push your buttons.

Reaching out and trying to understand feelings that she is unable or chooses not to convey to you is a fool's errand.

And ... serious question; are you fully prepared to divorce her?

Because you are in gut check mode now. You have spouted off and told her what you plan on doing ... she doesn't need to do a blessed thing other than wait around and see if you will do it ... and if you don't? You further erode what little if any shred of respect she has for you. If your threat is hollow, you are sending her the message that you will tolerate just about any lunacy she can throw your way. Do not make threats that you do not intend to follow through on.


----------



## turnera

Do you have kids?


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Do you have kids?


Yes, two daughters 7, 12 together, and she has a 17 yr old from her first marriage with us.
Three girls all together.


----------



## Undertheradar

Deejo said:


> Ape sh*t nuts isn't going to help you. Not ever. I get it trust me, I know the feeling you are talking about, but it does not, and will not ever serve you well.
> 
> So ... now I'm going to suggest doing the thing that Trenton finds fault with. You need to detach from this woman. Both emotionally and physically. This is for you ... not her. You need to find your feet so that you DO NOT go ape sh*t every time YOU allow her to push your buttons.
> 
> Reaching out and trying to understand feelings that she is unable or chooses not to convey to you is a fool's errand.
> 
> And ... serious question; are you fully prepared to divorce her?
> 
> Because you are in gut check mode now. You have spouted off and told her what you plan on doing ... she doesn't need to do a blessed thing other than wait around and see if you will do it ... and if you don't? You further erode what little if any shred of respect she has for you. If your threat is hollow, you are sending her the message that you will tolerate just about any lunacy she can throw your way. Do not make threats that you do not intend to follow through on.


Yes, I understand. I normally don't get that way. It takes a lot to get me to that point. I couldn't take it anymore, the rejection, the insults, the cold hearted conversations, her threats to leave. They were driving me insane! It has been three months of this stuff. 

Afterwards, we sat down, and i told her we need to do this. I told her I didn't want to be in this one sided marriage anymore, and she agreed. We also agreed that we don't know how to go about this. Neither one of us has a place to go, and I refuse to walk out, and so does she.

Checkmate.


----------



## turnera

Separate bedrooms. It's better than taking a parent away from the kids.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Ape sh*t nuts isn't going to help you. Not ever. I get it trust me, I know the feeling you are talking about, but it does not, and will not ever serve you well.
> 
> So ... now I'm going to suggest doing the thing that Trenton finds fault with. You need to detach from this woman. Both emotionally and physically. This is for you ... not her. You need to find your feet so that you DO NOT go ape sh*t every time YOU allow her to push your buttons.
> 
> Reaching out and trying to understand feelings that she is unable or chooses not to convey to you is a fool's errand.
> 
> And ... serious question; are you fully prepared to divorce her?
> 
> Because you are in gut check mode now. You have spouted off and told her what you plan on doing ... she doesn't need to do a blessed thing other than wait around and see if you will do it ... and if you don't? You further erode what little if any shred of respect she has for you. If your threat is hollow, you are sending her the message that you will tolerate just about any lunacy she can throw your way. Do not make threats that you do not intend to follow through on.


Things that make me go hmmmm. 

He has not tried my advice in any way, shape or form so suggesting differently is just another (easier, self serving) avenue. Sure he can do it if he doesn't want to lead her out of it, doesn't want to remain married or keep his family (with children!) in tact.

What I am telling him to do takes selfless understanding joined with selfish desire. What you are telling him to do anyone with half a brain can do...reclaim yourself and walk away from your wife as she has begun to walk away from you--be swept away by your own needs and let her deal with the under current.

Keep this in mind Undertheradar...

Getting angry won't work. Dig deep within yourself to find the love that withstands and then dig deeper within her to bring her back to the surface. If you don't, you will live in limbo believing you did everything you could when in reality you did what you had to do for yourself alone.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Things that make me go hmmmm.
> 
> He has not tried my advice in any way, shape or form so suggesting differently is just another (easier, self serving) avenue. Sure he can do it if he doesn't want to lead her out of it, doesn't want to remain married or keep his family (with children!) in tact.
> 
> What I am telling him to do takes selfless understanding joined with selfish desire. What you are telling him to do anyone with half a brain can do...reclaim yourself and walk away from your wife as she has begun to walk away from you--be swept away by your own needs and let her deal with the under current.
> 
> Keep this in mind Undertheradar...
> 
> Getting angry won't work. Dig deep within yourself to find the love that withstands and then dig deeper within her to bring her back to the surface. If you don't, you will live in limbo believing you did everything you could when in reality you did what you had to do for yourself alone.


I do admire your optimism. Even if I have no clue what it is you're recommending.


----------



## Undertheradar

Trenton said:


> Things that make me go hmmmm.
> 
> He has not tried my advice in any way, shape or form so suggesting differently is just another (easier, self serving) avenue. Sure he can do it if he doesn't want to lead her out of it, doesn't want to remain married or keep his family (with children!) in tact.
> 
> What I am telling him to do takes selfless understanding joined with selfish desire. What you are telling him to do anyone with half a brain can do...reclaim yourself and walk away from your wife as she has begun to walk away from you--be swept away by your own needs and let her deal with the under current.
> 
> Keep this in mind Undertheradar...
> 
> Getting angry won't work. Dig deep within yourself to find the love that withstands and then dig deeper within her to bring her back to the surface. If you don't, you will live in limbo believing you did everything you could when in reality you did what you had to do for yourself alone.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say. But I have tried everything in my power to avoid this. 
I am no longer angry. I had to have that explosion, or I was gonna have a heart attack. No one should hold back all that emotion for so long.

Tunera:
Wasn't it you that kept saying i should leave? You must have said three times. 
Now it's separate bedrooms? Is that really the solution for being with someone that insists that they would rather not be here?


----------



## Deejo

The point is ... if you leave the home, you establish the precedent that will be used by the courts in determining who stays in the home and who the primary custodian of the children will be ... and that will be your wife.

She's the one that wants out. I'm all for equality. She should leave.

That's the point. Make the decision you need to make. All Turnera or anyone else is trying to suggest is that most folks here have already been to the rodeo, and know the ins and outs of how it rolls.

I wanted out. I moved out. Now I pay my ex 30K a year and see my kids every other weekend. Just setting your expectations.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> I do admire your optimism. Even if I have no clue what it is you're recommending.


I'm saying do the 180/man up without the manipulative aspect. As in, hey I'm heading out (not telling her where you are). Don't create a separation between the two but rather fight for the connection you have or had.


----------



## Undertheradar

Well the morning took a whole different turn......

I feel as if my emotions are in some form of transition. As a man, I never thought I could have so much emotion. I've always been pretty much a hard ass, but this sh*t shredded me up pretty good.

Anyway.
She gets up this morning, and tells me she'll try harder. I said try harder to what? Fake your marriage some more?
I told her not to bother. I told her that three months of waiting for my wife to decide whether or not she wants to be married is long enough for me.
I told her to take her sh*t and get the f*ck out. She looked at me bewildered. I said... yeh, that's right, get the f*ck out. Go hang out with your walmart, FB and txt friends. And make sure you wear the highest heels, so you can get the most attention!
I told her I had reached my boiling point. I honestly did, and I think many saw this coming.

Ok, so then she tries to hit me some more mental abuse.... She says, but I DO love you, and I'll try to see if I could give you more! LOL... I started laughing! Are you F*ckin serious, I said? 
Start making arrangements to leave. Maybe a few months aways would help us both.

I went take a shower, and she went to work.

Maybe she needs to have a miserable day once in a while.

I am so fed up with the BS.


----------



## turnera

Undertheradar said:


> I'm not sure what you're trying to say. But I have tried everything in my power to avoid this.
> I am no longer angry. I had to have that explosion, or I was gonna have a heart attack. No one should hold back all that emotion for so long.
> 
> Tunera:
> Wasn't it you that kept saying i should leave? You must have said three times.
> Now it's separate bedrooms? Is that really the solution for being with someone that insists that they would rather not be here?


 I must have been drunk, then. I NEVER tell the BS to leave. I tell the BS to get the WS to leave, but never the BS. Telling the WS - and having the WS experience life without the support system they supposedly now despise - is a great eye-opener. And I would never tell a BS to let the cheater take the kids.


----------



## turnera

Undertheradar said:


> Well the morning took a whole different turn......
> 
> I feel as if my emotions are in some form of transition. As a man, I never thought I could have so much emotion. I've always been pretty much a hard ass, but this sh*t shredded me up pretty good.
> 
> Anyway.
> She gets up this morning, and tells me she'll try harder. I said try harder to what? Fake your marriage some more?
> I told her not to bother. I told her that three months of waiting for my wife to decide whether or not she wants to be married is long enough for me.
> I told her to take her sh*t and get the f*ck out. She looked at me bewildered. I said... yeh, that's right, get the f*ck out. Go hang out with your walmart, FB and txt friends. And make sure you wear the highest heels, so you can get the most attention!
> I told her I had reached my boiling point. I honestly did, and I think many saw this coming.
> 
> Ok, so then she tries to hit me some more mental abuse.... She says, but I DO love you, and I'll try to see if I could give you more! LOL... I started laughing! Are you F*ckin serious, I said?
> Start making arrangements to leave. Maybe a few months aways would help us both.
> 
> I went take a shower, and she went to work.
> 
> Maybe she needs to have a miserable day once in a while.
> 
> I am so fed up with the BS.


 Now THIS is what I've wanted you to do. Stand up for your marriage and tell her to leave if she hates it so bad. IMO, this is almost the ONLY way to get a cheater to quit and recommit, short of exposing an active affair.

And I agree, she DOES need to have a miserable day. Spoiled SAHMs get a really skewed view of the world, and such a day can be a great thing.


----------



## turnera

Now step back and SHUT UP!

Be mysterious. Don't say a word to her. Stay mad. But be malleable - if she decides to try to 'win' you back, let her. Let her see that she'll lose you if she doesn't recommit.

I get that you're mad, but don't throw away your whole family at this point just because you finally boiled over. 

A marriage can survive anger; it can't survive a third person.


----------



## magnoliagal

Undertheradar said:


> I told her to take her sh*t and get the f*ck out. She looked at me bewildered. I said... yeh, that's right, get the f*ck out. Go hang out with your walmart, FB and txt friends. And make sure you wear the highest heels, so you can get the most attention!


YES YES YES!!! OMG I think I've been dying for you to say those words to her. Now if you only can mean it and not back down. Could be the best thing that ever happened to both of you.


----------



## turnera

WR, what has happened - if he sticks to his guns - is that he has now taken control of his marriage. If he wants her back, he can now set high standards for what he will accept. Such as insisting on marriage counseling, changing how they deal with each other, weekly relationship discussions, 20 hours a week of non-work/home related time together, filling out EN and LB questionnaires...he can request and demand a lot of WORK on her part, wherein she can come to learn exactly what she should be contributing and maybe even embrace it, and thank him for showing her the way to happiness together.


----------



## Undertheradar

Hello, my friends. 

Today, I feel like I was born again. 

I've been taking it on the chin for 3 months, and very much afraid to react, out of fear of causing more damage. 
As you can see, I didn't start this thread just to strike conversation. I came back morning noon and night for your wisdom, and knowledge, and absorbed as much as I could. 
And I thank you for keeping your input coming.

I've been holding in my true feelings, because I felt that she may have been bluffing, and I didn't want to be the catalyst in our inevitable separation.

This morning, I saw a desperate fool. The power spell that she had over me, was lifted. She lost her full control, and her goal was to hurt me as much as possible. She wanted REVENGE for breaking her EA, and knew that I had a bullseye on my back, and I couldn't do a damn thing about it.

I intend to keep you guys updated 100%. 
*** I feel like I have a little video camera on my life**  

I will take Magnolia, WR, and Turnera's advice to hold my own, and back off.

WR, my dear, you are 100% right. No matter what she says, I feel it's only for her security and convenience. I don't believe anything out of her mouth anymore.

magnolia;
I won't back down at this point.
LOL.... She's calling me as I write this, I won't even answer. If I had a dollar for every time I called her during the past few months, only to feel as if I invaded her space, I could retire.
Knowing her...She's calling me to see if "I'm OK". I'm fine. It's time she stew in her own pot!

Turnera,
I won't be bothered.

I have work to do. This nonsense ran its course with me for much longer than it should have.

I couldn't / wouldn't do anything because I honstly didn't know what to do. I guess that cup of coffee last night was fate.


----------



## magnoliagal

turnera said:


> it can't survive a third person.


or anything that takes excessive time away from the marriage. Could be a job, an addiction, a hobby, facebook, anything really.


----------



## magnoliagal

Undertheradar said:


> She wanted REVENGE for breaking her EA, and knew that I had a bullseye on my back, and I couldn't do a damn thing about it.


You know now this isn't true right? You absolutely CAN do something about it. Don't take it. 

Stay strong!


----------



## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> You know now this isn't true right? You absolutely CAN do something about it. Don't take it.
> 
> Stay strong!


I'm done with that scene. If she's mad that I took something away from her (as she put it), when then it's just too bad. I paid the price, I took my punsishment.


----------



## turnera

So....you're done with the marriage? No matter what happens?


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> So....you're done with the marriage? No matter what happens?



I'm done with HER. She has done her share of harm, and openly said that she doesn't love me, and has nothing to give into this marriage.

Should I want her? Of course not.

Regardless of her actions, I expect my partner to want to be with me. She doesn't wnat what I want.

If my marriage isn't over, well then SHE has a LONG road to prove to me otherwise. I feel real bitter right now. 

Not sure I can trust her anymore.


----------



## turnera

Undertheradar said:


> If my marriage isn't over, well then SHE has a LONG road to prove to me otherwise. I feel real bitter right now.
> 
> Not sure I can trust her anymore.


Ok, that's what I wanted to hear. Never ever make life decisions when you are in an emotional state. 

That's why I said step back and shut up and let things happen as they will. Don't throw away a marriage just because you're mad and fed up. If we did that every time we had an argument, no one would be married.

Let her prove herself to you. As you said, it will be a LONG road for her to do that. Let her. And if she chooses not to, you are no worse off than you are now.


----------



## Undertheradar

I know the pattern....
She'll come home later, and ask me if I'm OK. Then she'll put her arm on me, and stroke my back or my arm, in a loving manner.

Then she'd EXPECT me to loosen up and ask her if she's had a change of heart. Then of course, she would seize the moment to say that she cant help how she feels.

I want no part of that script anymore.

So help me out here....
When she comes home later, I keep my distance ( I want to). At some point, she WILL come over to me and initiate a friendly talk. She'll act as if nothing happened.

How do I respond to this?


----------



## magnoliagal

Turnera is right. I almost threw my marriage away at year 7 because I was fed up and bitter. We worked through it and became stronger because of those hard times. Growth comes from bad times not the good ones.


----------



## magnoliagal

My brain is muddled at the moment but I'm thinking direct is key. Say something like "oh no you can't just walk in here and expect me to just forget how you've treated me. I'm mad and I still want you to get the **** out. Go be with your friends. I'm done". 

Then calmly walk away.


----------



## turnera

Yep. Be direct.

Also have, written down, a list of what you require from her to be able to consider staying married. 

Until you have:
written OM (if appropriate) a No Contact letter that I approve and send myself
given me the passwords to your phone and computer
handed them over any time I ask for them without complaint, until I feel safe enough to quit triggering and asking
find and sign us up for the best marriage counseling you can find
attend said counseling for at least 6 months
actually done the homework given at said counseling such that we start to see mutual progress and a path to happiness
done enough soul searching that you come to realize that marriage takes work and I expect you to work at it just as much as me...

Until you have done these things, I think it's best we make plans to separate so I can find someone who DOES believe in these things.


----------



## Undertheradar

LOL... She just called my office...
In the sweetest, kindest, most endearing voice, she asked me how my day was going.
She tried to initiate some small talk about her job. I told her I had to go, I was busy.
This woman wants to dish it out, but ignores what she gets back.

If there ever was a time where actions will speak louder than words, I know it's now.


----------



## magnoliagal

That is funny. Who is running the show now? People can be so predictable sometimes. I know its easy for me to say this because I'm not in the middle of it like you are but still it's comical that she's trying to get back to her cake eating. Darn you for messing that up. You aren't supposed to kick her out you are supposed to just sulk and wallow for her while she plays at having her single life. Oh and take care of those pesky little things called "kids" while you are at it. Didn't you read the script she wrote?


----------



## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> That is funny. Who is running the show now? People can be so predictable sometimes. I know its easy for me to say this because I'm not in the middle of it like you are but still it's comical that she's trying to get back to her cake eating. Darn you for messing that up. You aren't supposed to kick her out you are supposed to just sulk and wallow for her while she plays at having her single life. Oh and take care of those pesky little things called "kids" while you are at it. Didn't you read the script she wrote?


I was just sitting here telling my business partner how I never realized how little I knew about dealing with my own wife.
You would think after 15 years, that I'd know how to handle everything thrown at me from her.

The scary part is the "scripts". It's even more amazing how many other people here are reading and writing the same script.


----------



## turnera

I'm surprised there's not more scientific research on it, since it is SO blatantly similar in nearly every cheater. I mean, it's fascinating how all these different people come up with the same lines and reactions and actions, without realizing it.


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> I'm surprised there's not more scientific research on it, since it is SO blatantly similar in nearly every cheater. I mean, it's fascinating how all these different people come up with the same lines and reactions and actions, without realizing it.


So true.

I've been reading some other posts, and I want to copy and paste my story in every one of them.

I want to write "yep, me too" on all of them.

I'm getting ready to leave my office, and I can honestly say that I'm afraid to go home. 

There's pain there.
I feel my anxiety level rising at the thought of it.


----------



## Deejo

Then don't engage her.

Tell her if she wants to talk, you will be willing to do so with the two of you and a therapist.

If she poo-poos that, then you can smile and indicate that she mustn't want to talk that bad then.

Don't walk around on egg-shells. Don't walk around giving her the stink-eye.

You said your piece. You can clarify that ... calmly ... should you choose to.

You are giving her what she wants. All she has to do is seize the opportunity ... on her own.

Seriously though, if you don't feel like you have your emotions under control, DO NOT engage her in any kind of discussion about what's going on. Particularly given that NOT engaging her appears to be working wonders.


----------



## Undertheradar

Ok, evening one....

Almost got sucked in. She's good. I didn't realize how manipulating and calculating she was, until now.

I come home, and she's luke warm. I went along, and just stayed away. She decided to make dinner (first in months). I chose not to eat it, but I suggested she do it for the kids. 
She comes over and gives me a sympathy hug. I back her off, and tell that the hugs are done. 
I told her.... I said look... OK, you know this isn't something I pushed for, but that doesn't mean I don't intend to give it to you.
This is what you begged for, for the past three months. 
I intend to figure how to make as painless as possible for my family..... regardless of how you planned on doing it.

Then I get the answer again..... She says: "give me some time to work through it", "Maybe I'll feel differently".

I told her that she was still on that old move, and it's played out.

I went to the park for a bike ride, came home and watched TV.
I noticed before I left, that she asked where I was going. That hasn't happened in quite a while.

She approached me with a funny look on her face a few hours later, then I made the mistake of engaging (I'll learn, I promise). I asked her if it was all worth it, in exchange for a little fun with a co worker. Then I caught myself, and said it didn't matter anyway....and walked away.

Just thought I'd share my evening.


----------



## turnera

Sounds like you're learning.


----------



## magnoliagal

You are learning and it will get better. Old habits die hard right?


----------



## Jellybeans

turnera said:


> Yep. Be direct.
> 
> Also have, written down, a list of what you require from her to be able to consider staying married.
> 
> Until you have:
> written OM (if appropriate) a No Contact letter that I approve and send myself
> given me the passwords to your phone and computer
> handed them over any time I ask for them without complaint, until I feel safe enough to quit triggering and asking
> find and sign us up for the best marriage counseling you can find
> attend said counseling for at least 6 months
> actually done the homework given at said counseling such that we start to see mutual progress and a path to happiness
> done enough soul searching that you come to realize that marriage takes work and I expect you to work at it just as much as me...
> 
> Until you have done these things, I think it's best we make plans to separate so I can find someone who DOES believe in these things.


Excellent advice! Heed it!


----------



## Undertheradar

Day two.....

Came home from the office with a bad headache. I was resting when.....

FWIW.... She is SO MAD right now!
I came home and took a nap. I'm laying down, and she comes over next to the bed, and starts giving me little pecks on the cheek.
I get up, and tell her to stop. She tells me that she hates to see me depressed.
I'm like... I'm not depressed, I'm disgusted with you, and your actions!
Also.... Since you decided that you no longer want to be married, I think it's time we stop ALL contact. I don't want your sympathy kisses or hugs. You've been fooling me with those for three months. I don't want you to call me anymore, nor will I call you. Don't text me, I won't text you.
She's leaving for work as I write this, and she's going all out with the makeup and hair... LOL

When I'm done, there's a good chance that I'll hate her guts.


----------



## turnera

That's why we recommend putting a time limit on waiting for changes before you just walk away. So you don't grow to hate them.


----------



## WhereAmI

She thinks if she pretties herself up you'll get jealous or won't be able to resist. Try your best not to look at her more than normal. If you can be unexpectedly gone when she arrives home, you will have successfully turned her plan around on her. If she asks where you were, just say "out".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> That's why we recommend putting a time limit on waiting for changes before you just walk away. So you don't grow to hate them.


Yes, It's starting to make sense now.
I will establish a timeframe...Just not ready yet.


As she was leaving for work, she asks why I won't kiss her goodbye. I reminded her that she wouldn't even consider it while she was planing her escape. 

At that point, I told her that I wanted her to understand that we should not have anymore contact in any form. I told her it took me three months to "get it", that she wanted out, and I intend to give it to her. I was very nice, and gentle, and I told her it's best this way. 
She's fuming, BTW...
I told her i'd wave from the window. LOL

On the way out, she mumbles.... How am I supposed to get through work tonight?

I hate doing this, but I feel like she deserves every bit of the bastard I intend to give her.

BTW.... I briefly engaged her this morning, and I basically searched for the "nerve". In a matter of minutes, she was defending her EA to the fullest.
I strongly believe that she developed very strong emotions for her EA, and she resents me for the breakup.
Having that knowledge, will give me some closure.


----------



## Undertheradar

WhereAmI said:


> She thinks if she pretties herself up you'll get jealous or won't be able to resist. Try your best not to look at her more than normal. If you can be unexpectedly gone when she arrives home, you will have successfully turned her plan around on her. If she asks where you were, just say "out".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OMG you read my game plan! I walked away, and retreated into my media room, for a quick video game.
Very hard to get my attention that way 

She's working until midnight, the kids will be sleeping, I have a babysitter coming over (she doesn't know this) and I have plans to disappear tonight.
Just going to shoot some midnight pool with the guys.


----------



## WhereAmI

I forgot you have kids. I think that you should text her that the babysitter is there so she doesn't freak out when she gets home. "I paid the babysitter to stay through midnight tonight so don't worry about paying her" and leave it at that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Undertheradar

WhereAmI said:


> I forgot you have kids. I think that you should text her that the babysitter is there so she doesn't freak out when she gets home. "I paid the babysitter to stay through midnight tonight so don't worry about paying her" and leave it at that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She actually returned home a few seconds ago. She said she forgot something. (yeah right)
On the way out..... She asks if I was sure I didn't want to kiss her goodbye.
I said sure I'm sure. We have to start somewhere, don't we?
Today's the day we start to finish what you started.

Then I said Oh, BTW... I have "so and so" coming over for about an hour before you get home.
I have to meet Joe. (my friend), so I won't be here when you're finished.
She slammed door on the way out!

Gotta love this place.

Never realized how much of a doormat I was.

Now have a nice evening


----------



## magnoliagal

Undertheradar said:


> On the way out, she mumbles.... How am I supposed to get through work tonight?


Best line ever. She sure can dish it out but she can't take it can she? What oh what did she expect when she told you she didn't want to be married? Oh wait I forgot...the script. You are supposed to pursue her, to be jealous, to pine for her, and you aren't. That's why she dressed up. All for show. All for you.

Good work btw.


----------



## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> Best line ever. She sure can dish it out but she can't take it can she? What oh what did she expect when she told you she didn't want to be married? Oh wait I forgot...the script. You are supposed to pursue her, to be jealous, to pine for her, and you aren't. That's why she dressed up. All for show. All for you.
> 
> Good work btw.


I'm trying.
Don't get me wrong, it hurts for me to act so "out of character", but I know i have to do this, I need to regain my respect, and self respect.

I can only write so much on this board, but the extent of damage done, is far beyond what I'm able to describe in a few words.
Dealing with her, is the first step for me. I know i need to make the break. I know I don't deserve to be a doormat.
I was always a well respected man, with integrity, and self worth.
Most people don't know what extreme rejection and manipulation can do to a person.

My Father's favorite words:

_*You have to walk in a man's shoes, to know what he's feeling.*_


----------



## 8yearscheating

I hope it works for you!


----------



## golfergirl

Undertheradar said:


> I'm trying.
> Don't get me wrong, it hurts for me to act so "out of character", but I know i have to do this, I need to regain my respect, and self respect.
> 
> I can only write so much on this board, but the extent of damage done, is far beyond what I'm able to describe in a few words.
> Dealing with her, is the first step for me. I know i need to make the break. I know I don't deserve to be a doormat.
> I was always a well respected man, with integrity, and self worth.
> Most people don't know what extreme rejection and manipulation can do to a person.
> 
> My Father's favorite words:
> 
> _*You have to walk in a man's shoes, to know what he's feeling.*_


I started this thread yesterday and actually cheered for you these past few days. Good work. As my toddler says, 'Yay you!' (Insert cute toddler happy dance)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trenton

I think the whole thing stinks. Vindictive, lacking compassion or authentic connection with selfish excuses as a means for ulterior motive, breeding insecurity as a means to re-ignite a long lost attraction and getting caught up in a game where there will only be winners if both give up the game...typical but depressing.


----------



## Undertheradar

Trenton said:


> I think the whole thing stinks. Vindictive, lacking compassion or authentic connection with selfish excuses as a means for ulterior motive, breeding insecurity as a means to re-ignite a long lost attraction and getting caught up in a game where there will only be winners if both give up the game...typical but depressing.


Trenton, I have to agree with you here. It does stink.

Today, I woke up feeling horrible. I feel as if I'm emotionally shut down. I feel as if I don't want to play this game,...I didn't invent it, she did. She's good at it, and she's been doing it to me over the years.
I feel as if I can't win, but instead, I'm breeding a playground for her wicked way of operating.

The past couple days did show me that my wife was receptive to certain antics, but no matter what games I play, the heart is what matters, and the the truth is, my wife's heart is not there. i could let her chase me, and ask for silly kisses to stroke our egos, but at the end of the day, it's still a one sided marriage.

I've decided not to put anymore effort into this marriage.
There won't be an epiphany. I need to move on. I'm tired, stressed out, and now my blood pressure is elevated. I don't want to do this anymore.


I would prefer to have the inner strength to be able to have a mutual understanding that it's time to part ways, as opposed to trying to win her. If she wanted me, she's had plenty of time to come to her senses.

I assume this emotional roller coaster ride is typical.

geez, for whatever reason, yes, today I feel depressed. I feel a total sense of defeat.

Wow... WTF??


----------



## turnera

It's because you saw yesterday that being unavailable is what she wants from you, not being a nice guy. She's not using her heart to lead her.


----------



## Jellybeans

Hi Under.

Is she still maintaining she wants out and is done? Please bring me up to speed.


----------



## golfergirl

Undertheradar said:


> Trenton, I have to agree with you here. It does stink.
> 
> Today, I woke up feeling horrible. I feel as if I'm emotionally shut down. I feel as if I don't want to play this game,...I didn't invent it, she did. She's good at it, and she's been doing it to me over the years.
> I feel as if I can't win, but instead, I'm breeding a playground for her wicked way of operating.
> 
> The past couple days did show me that my wife was receptive to certain antics, but no matter what games I play, the heart is what matters, and the the truth is, my wife's heart is not there. i could let her chase me, and ask for silly kisses to stroke our egos, but at the end of the day, it's still a one sided marriage.
> 
> I've decided not to put anymore effort into this marriage.
> There won't be an epiphany. I need to move on. I'm tired, stressed out, and now my blood pressure is elevated. I don't want to do this anymore.
> 
> 
> I would prefer to have the inner strength to be able to have a mutual understanding that it's time to part ways, as opposed to trying to win her. If she wanted me, she's had plenty of time to come to her senses.
> 
> I assume this emotional roller coaster ride is typical.
> 
> geez, for whatever reason, yes, today I feel depressed. I feel a total sense of defeat.
> 
> Wow... WTF??


It's because you can't be you. You can't come home, relax, greet wife with hug and kiss if you want, have nice meal together, go for walk together, hang with kids and snuggle in bed. You have to consciously be a d!ck to get her to try.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Undertheradar

Jellybeans said:


> Hi Under.
> 
> Is she still maintaining she wants out and is done? Please bring me up to speed.


YES 100%. I'm not feeling an ounce of desire to work this out from her.
What I don't understand, is that she keeps saying to give her time.... Maybe she's get through it.
She said she doesn't want to make the wrong decision, and regret it.

I have never in my life.


----------



## Undertheradar

golfergirl said:


> It's because you can't be you. You can't come home, relax, greet wife with hug and kiss if you want, have nice meal together, go for walk together, hang with kids and snuggle in bed. You have to consciously be a d!ck to get her to try.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


100% correct.

It's sickening that I have to reduce myself to that level, to get my wife to realize that she's married.


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> It's because you saw yesterday that being unavailable is what she wants from you, not being a nice guy. She's not using her heart to lead her.


She's using an excuse to withdraw.

It's the post EA syndrome.. She's punishing me. I can feel it.
I'm lost in all this today.

I'm shut down... which may not be a bad thing.


----------



## Jellybeans

Well honey it's up to you to decide if you want to wait around while she decides. I'm of the school that someone either knows if they want to be with you or not.

You don't have to be a d!ck to her, just don't hold her hand through this.


----------



## Trenton

Undertheradar said:


> Trenton, I have to agree with you here. It does stink.
> 
> Today, I woke up feeling horrible. I feel as if I'm emotionally shut down. I feel as if I don't want to play this game,...I didn't invent it, she did. She's good at it, and she's been doing it to me over the years.
> I feel as if I can't win, but instead, I'm breeding a playground for her wicked way of operating.
> 
> The past couple days did show me that my wife was receptive to certain antics, but no matter what games I play, the heart is what matters, and the the truth is, my wife's heart is not there. i could let her chase me, and ask for silly kisses to stroke our egos, but at the end of the day, it's still a one sided marriage.
> 
> I've decided not to put anymore effort into this marriage.
> There won't be an epiphany. I need to move on. I'm tired, stressed out, and now my blood pressure is elevated. I don't want to do this anymore.
> 
> 
> I would prefer to have the inner strength to be able to have a mutual understanding that it's time to part ways, as opposed to trying to win her. If she wanted me, she's had plenty of time to come to her senses.
> 
> I assume this emotional roller coaster ride is typical.
> geez, for whatever reason, yes, today I feel depressed. I feel a total sense of defeat.
> 
> Wow... WTF??


I'm sorry you're having to go through this. I know the emotional roller coaster is a natural part of a relationship when it gets confusing. You do seem like a nice guy, and let me be bluntly honest with you here, I love nice guys. I think authentic nice guys who truly love and adore their marriages and families are rare gems. I admire it and I think if a woman has it and is a typical ***** so she takes advantage of it rather than gives the man what he deserves/wants that it stinks. You can still be a nice guy, an adoring family man and everything else even if your wife doesn't appreciate you. Just don't let her take you through the ringer and suck all the nice guy out of you in the process. There are plenty of strong, beautiful women who admire and want to please a strong, nice family man.

You seem to flounder even here on this thread based upon what you're reading and you seem ambivalent. Is your wife also ambivalent or does she stay fixed on where she's at and how she's feeling?

You have to have a plan. If you are raw and honest with your wife and she still plays the same song over and over, ask her to leave and file for a separation. Only you can decide if you're willing to live like you are with the hope that maybe your wife will make up her mind in your favor. You have a mind to make up too.


----------



## turnera

Time to get her out then. Let HER pay for her new freedom. By herself. Go see your lawyer.


----------



## 8yearscheating

Under - I agree you are not being you and that is the hardest thing for someone who has always been straightforward and honest. You are also trying your damnedest to push her off the fence which eneds to happen. Unfortunately, you cannot control her behavior or force a change in her thinking, only she can. I agree completely that a hard lien needs drawn in the sand and a time limit put on it based on your limitations to continue which can't keep going forever. She knows what you need and want. She knows what she has to do. There has to be point where the work begins, the communications start to happen again and the door is reopened for that to start. Only you can tell if the two of you are at that tipping point. I guess my reason for saying this is that it critical to watch for that. It won't be 100% but there has be a quick reaction when it starts too look like it is hopeful. In my opinion, that is the time when you do have to give her safe haven and begin to support her in her efforts. Totally shutting her out and leading her believe you are done will result in her giving up and taking the easy way out which is just walking away. Backing off means reducing the pressure to agree 1000% RIGHT NOW. SHe's not ready to do that obviously. But it appears there is a crack in her armour and a desire to start moving away from separation and D. If the door remains slammed shut, she will walk away thinking there is no reason to put in any effort forward if there is no hope. I obviously am not in the put her out crowd and push this until you have everything NOW crowd. The best example I can give you is that no peace negotiations ever proceed when both sides are firmly entrenched and there is no room for movement or diplomacy. Yes maintain your boundaries and requirements - there is no reason to give those up. But it is a process that takes time.


----------



## Undertheradar

golfergirl said:


> It's because you can't be you. You can't come home, relax, greet wife with hug and kiss if you want, have nice meal together, go for walk together, hang with kids and snuggle in bed. You have to consciously be a d!ck to get her to try.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are SO right.

Like I said, shutting down, may have me feeling blue today, but my gut is telling me to go with it. This might be my own defense mechanism kicking in.

I can't play games, but I could stop myself from getting abused any further.
Shutting down may just be what I needed to do.


----------



## Undertheradar

Trenton said:


> I'm sorry you're having to go through this. I know the emotional roller coaster is a natural part of a relationship when it gets confusing. You do seem like a nice guy, and let me be bluntly honest with you here, I love nice guys. I think authentic nice guys who truly love and adore their marriages and families are rare gems. I admire it and I think if a woman has it and is a typical ***** so she takes advantage of it rather than gives the man what he deserves/wants that it stinks. You can still be a nice guy, an adoring family man and everything else even if your wife doesn't appreciate you. Just don't let her take you through the ringer and suck all the nice guy out of you in the process. There are plenty of strong, beautiful women who admire and want to please a strong, nice family man.
> 
> *You seem to flounder even here on this thread based upon what you're reading and you seem ambivalent. Is your wife also ambivalent or does she stay fixed on where she's at and how she's feeling?
> *
> You have to have a plan. If you are raw and honest with your wife and she still plays the same song over and over, ask her to leave and file for a separation. Only you can decide if you're willing to live like you are with the hope that maybe your wife will make up her mind in your favor. You have a mind to make up too.



Your assessment is true. I am all over the place. I've never had to deal with anything like this, and my course of action has yet to be defined in my mind.
With that, I'm reading and listening to the many posts from experience, and applying as much as I could. There have been times where I had to go against the grain, and that's when I seem to fall off track.
When I say I want her out, I feel as if I want WHAT SHE'S DOING OUT of my my life.
Im still in shock, that this woman, that we've always had a good relationship with, decided to turn on dime against me, because she made a friend at work.

In one of her VAR's, she said that he was just a friend, but developed feelings for him, and cared for him.

How in God's name, can someone develop strong feelings for a part time co-worker after working together for three months?
How can you turn your back on someone that's been your best friend for 16 years for that person?

Well THAT"S what's got me so ambivalent.
I can't get her actions to make sense.

Even though I may not be as assertive as I was the past couple days, I'm at a point where I feel that NOTHING is the best course of action. In it's own way, I'll be doing the same thing anyway.

She was going to the beach today.Of course, I was asked to join. I politely dismissed myself. 
I won't engage at all.


----------



## Undertheradar

8yearscheating said:


> Under - I agree you are not being you and that is the hardest thing for someone who has always been straightforward and honest. You are also trying your damnedest to push her off the fence which eneds to happen. Unfortunately, you cannot control her behavior or force a change in her thinking, only she can. I agree completely that a hard lien needs drawn in the sand and a time limit put on it based on your limitations to continue which can't keep going forever. She knows what you need and want. She knows what she has to do. There has to be point where the work begins, the communications start to happen again and the door is reopened for that to start. Only you can tell if the two of you are at that tipping point. I guess my reason for saying this is that it critical to watch for that. It won't be 100% but there has be a quick reaction when it starts too look like it is hopeful. In my opinion, that is the time when you do have to give her safe haven and begin to support her in her efforts. Totally shutting her out and leading her believe you are done will result in her giving up and taking the easy way out which is just walking away. Backing off means reducing the pressure to agree 1000% RIGHT NOW. SHe's not ready to do that obviously. But it appears there is a crack in her armour and a desire to start moving away from separation and D. If the door remains slammed shut, she will walk away thinking there is no reason to put in any effort forward if there is no hope. I obviously am not in the put her out crowd and push this until you have everything NOW crowd. The best example I can give you is that no peace negotiations ever proceed when both sides are firmly entrenched and there is no room for movement or diplomacy. Yes maintain your boundaries and requirements - there is no reason to give those up. But it is a process that takes time.


I can only agree 100%, and put this in my reserve


----------



## magnoliagal

I think "give her time" means she wants out but not really. Not because she loves you but because at the moment she's still in the fog and isn't ready for the loss of her life. She clinging to the notion of cake eating. Why oh why can't she have her friends and her single life and you just wait for her while she gets it out of her system. It's the reason you can't be a nice guy right now because the minute you do she gets the message that all is good. 

She must be exhausted right now balancing up there on that fence.


----------



## magnoliagal

Undertheradar said:


> How in God's name, can someone develop strong feelings for a part time co-worker after working together for three months?
> How can you turn your back on someone that's been your best friend for 16 years for that person?


This isn't about you. It's like a drug. You can get hooked on a drug in 3 months. It's the high for her. It isn't about turning away from you it's about turning towards that rush.

Husband/kids = mundane life vs friends/job = excitement. Lets face it real life is boring sometimes. That doesn't mean you step out and act rediculous but that's exactly what many people do. Sad really.


----------



## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> I think "give her time" means she wants out but not really. Not because she loves you but because at the moment she's still in the fog and isn't ready for the loss of her life. She clinging to the notion of cake eating. Why oh why can't she have her friends and her single life and you just wait for her while she gets it out of her system. It's the reason you can't be a nice guy right now because the minute you do she gets the message that all is good.
> 
> She must be exhausted right now balancing up there on that fence.





magnoliagal said:


> This isn't about you. It's like a drug. You can get hooked on a drug in 3 months. It's the high for her. It isn't about turning away from you it's about turning towards that rush.
> 
> Husband/kids = mundane life vs friends/job = excitement. Lets face it real life is boring sometimes. That doesn't mean you step out and act rediculous but that's exactly what many people do. Sad really.



You are so right on all accounts.

I get that very impression.


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## 8yearscheating

Be cautious of I think this means this. Ask her directly what she thinks it will take to stay together and what she would like to happen long term. Don't take guesswork and conjecture on here as fact.


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## Undertheradar

8yearscheating said:


> Be cautious of I think this means this. Ask her directly what she thinks it will take to stay together and what she would like to happen long term. Don't take guesswork and conjecture on here as fact.


She's not being honest with me. I've concluded that the ONLY honest thing out of her mouth, is the fact that she would prefer to be out of her marriage.
What I've concluded, is that the only reason she's not acting on it, because she would lose her "cake" and eat it lifestyle.


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## turnera

Print out the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires and ask her to fill them out with you. Share with each other. See what you learn. Use that info to create a plan. And let her know that if she's not willing to do this little bit of work then you will do it on your own without her. Show her that you WILL take this path with her, but you have to see work on her part. Respect yourself so she will, too.


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## turnera

Undertheradar said:


> What I've concluded, is that the only reason she's not acting on it, because she would lose her "cake" and eat it lifestyle.


My guess as well, though she may just feel like she's being pushed to it unfairly. That's why it doesn't pay to make your own assumptions.

All you CAN do is state YOUR beliefs and what you'll accept, tell her you want her with you, but if she can't accept those beliefs (no EAs, etc.), then you will have to go it alone. And let her know that you DO have a timeline before you take steps. Show her you will protect yourself. Then step back and let her decide.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Print out the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires and ask her to fill them out with you. Share with each other. See what you learn. Use that info to create a plan. And let her know that if she's not willing to do this little bit of work then you will do it on your own without her. Show her that you WILL take this path with her, but you have to see work on her part. Respect yourself so she will, too.



You're giving her too much credit. Right now, she's in a fog, and not receptive to ANYTHING positive about her marriage. She couldn't care less.


I asked her last week if she remembered "this good time, or that good time", and she acted as if it were a vague memory. If I ask her about an argument we had 5 years ago, it's as clear as day.

I don't want to work with her anymore. She's made a total fool out of me for three months.
If she realizes that I'm drifting away, and MAYBE comes to her senses, I'll listen.

I told her point blank a few days ago.... I told her the only way I'll believe her actions, is if she comes to me, and lets it be known that she wants t work it out 100% commited.
She laughed under her breath, and rolled her eyes.

OH VERY IMPORTANT!!! She comes home from work last night. And after not getting her goodbye kiss, she seemed pissed. SO I ask her, how was work? She says FINE (nasty tone). She seemed "dreamy" and in deep thought.
I asked if she worked with "John" (EA). She said yes.
This woman will never getpast this, as long as she gets reminded that they can no longe have the relationship they had. She told me, she would still be his friend, if I didn't tell him to stay away from her.

I told you.... It's all about the EA. She feels it was just a friendship, and I was a bully.

_Without elaborating... want you to know that I have a "spotter" thats working with me to report her activity with her EA in the store. I wa just told that he won't and hasn't done anything more than say hello in passing. If they are working together, she can't get a smile out of him. He refuses to be her friend at work. This is why she's so pissed at me.
The spotter is a paid employee, that happens to have known me for many years. I approached him after the incident, and he's been my eyes and ears for now._

yes... I'm treating her like a cheater.


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## magnoliagal

Ok you've seriously got to quit trying to read her mind. Deep thought and "dreamy" are not even close to the same emotion. I'll buy the deep thought but not the dreamy part. The nasty tone is my clue. It's a drug plain and simple. She came home high to you and it was a buzz kill. The deep thought is her trying to figure out still how to still cake eat or she's trying to figure out if the drug is worth losing her life over. And she's irritated because you won't give her "time" to choose.


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## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> Ok you've seriously got to quit trying to read her mind. Deep thought and "dreamy" are not even close to the same emotion. I'll buy the deep thought but not the dreamy part. The nasty tone is my clue. It's a drug plain and simple. She came home high to you and it was a buzz kill. The deep thought is her trying to figure out still how to still cake eat or she's trying to figure out if the drug is worth losing her life over. And she's irritated because you won't give her "time" to choose.


Absolutely correct.. LOL I wasn't trying to read her mind... LOL I was trying to convey her mood to you guys here TAM.

And yes, she's irritated about the time to choose, indeed.


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## magnoliagal

How long are you going to give her to decide? Before you kick her to the curb that is.


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## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> How long are you going to give her to decide? Before you kick her to the curb that is.


That's a good question. I'm not good at "curb kicking". I'm backing off as much as i could. 
I'm as confused as se is now. I don't know HOW to break this relationship. If leave, it's easy for me and the children. If SHE leaves, it's difficult for the children, and she won't be able to financially make it, without substantial support from me. I'm not sure, I can support two households in that capacity.


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## magnoliagal

Is she working pt or ft? The capacity isn't the issue if she has to live in a crappy apartment then so be it. Could you/her afford one of those long term hotels with furniture kinda places? Make her pay for most of it. Thats what my friend did when she kicked her husband out. Only took 6 weeks before he decided counseling wasn't such a bad idea after all. LOL!! That separation was the best thing that could have ever happened to him. He was being a jerk and needed a wake up call.


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## turnera

Why are you making your decision based on how comfy she will be?

SHE is throwing away the marriage, not you. Tell her you're going to help her pack her bags this weekend and help her line up a new place to stay. End of story.


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## magnoliagal

turnera said:


> Why are you making your decision based on how comfy she will be?
> 
> SHE is throwing away the marriage, not you. Tell her you're going to help her pack her bags this weekend and help her line up a new place to stay. End of story.


Yep I agree wholeheartedly. Time to go. Can she go live with her mom, a sister, a friend, someone other than you? She wants out let her out.


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## 8yearscheating

Push push push. It's his decision let him make it. Set the boundaries, tell her the consequences for not sticking to them and set a time limit your comfortable with. She isn't in contact. What the hell is the rush to kick her to the curb?


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## magnoliagal

8yearscheating said:


> Push push push. It's his decision let him make it. Set the boundaries, tell her the consequences for not sticking to them and set a time limit your comfortable with. She isn't in contact. What the hell is the rush to kick her to the curb?


Because she's behaving awful, *****y, and putting undertheradar through hell. She has no remorse for her EA and is hell bent on punishing UR for ending it. She also keeps stating she has no feelings for him AND that she doesn't want to be married. She is just staying for the kids.

How many more reasons does he need to kick her to curb?


----------



## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> Because she's behaving awful, *****y, and putting undertheradar through hell. She has no remorse for her EA and is hell bent on punishing UR for ending it. She also keeps stating she has no feelings for him AND that she doesn't want to be married. She is just staying for the kids.
> 
> How many more reasons does he need to kick her to curb?


Thanks Magnolia. I agree with you.

The end of a day today.....

I've been keeping everyone up to date. Today, I woke up feeling rather "empty", and it turned out to be a blessing for me. She did her thing, I did my thing, there was nothing in between. I didn't feel like talking to her, and she tried talking to me.

I don't have to kick her to the curb. I don't like doing things that way. I just have to go through the process of detachment. She doesn't want to be with me...I'm gradually accepting it. I do expect to have an occasional step back, but in the long run, I will adapt to NOT including her in my daily thought process. In time, she won't have to make a decision, nor will I. It will just happen.
I had one conversation this morning. She asked me how I feel about "things". I explained that she could stay here, with the understanding that it's over. I don't to stay for the kids, I want her to work WITH me on an exit plan. She didn't answer. I told her, she should be free in less than three months. 
I spent the day rather quiet, and to my self. I didn't post much today, so I can clear my head a bit.

Tunera... The hatred is settling in. I feel that I didn't deserve the way she's been treating me for three months, and I decided today, that I have no right to forgive her. Let her have her glory.
I'm sure there's a woman out there, that would appreciate a man like me, and I intend to take that attitude with me, later on down the road.
I have plenty of life in me.

I do need to stay strong, and pay much more attention to the facts, and not get blind-sided by memories.


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## Undertheradar

8yearscheating said:


> Push push push. It's his decision let him make it. Set the boundaries, tell her the consequences for not sticking to them and set a time limit your comfortable with. She isn't in contact. What the hell is the rush to kick her to the curb?


She wouldn't give a sh*t if I put a gun to her head. Her mind is made up that the grass is greener, and she's going for it.


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## Trenton

8yearscheating said:


> Push push push. It's his decision let him make it. Set the boundaries, tell her the consequences for not sticking to them and set a time limit your comfortable with. She isn't in contact. What the hell is the rush to kick her to the curb?


I couldn't agree more.


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## Trenton

Undertheradar said:


> She wouldn't give a sh*t if I put a gun to her head. Her mind is made up that the grass is greener, and she's going for it.


It sounds more as if she's struggling with feeling trapped by you and sees you as overbearing and uncaring of her feelings or what she wants out of life hence the feeling trapped by you.

Personally, my wife who is struggling in her own life and telling me she wants me out of our life asks me go to the beach and I'd go. I'd have the hope that it'd be a pleasant environment to get both sides out in a neutral ground and create positives in the "us" rather than the ongoing negatives. It's almost as if you're allowing your behavior to fuel her feelings of wanting to get out rather than halting them. Maybe this means you want out too but I think you should be honest with yourself.


----------



## Undertheradar

Trenton said:


> It sounds more as if she's struggling with feeling trapped by you and sees you as overbearing and uncaring of her feelings or what she wants out of life hence the feeling trapped by you.
> 
> Personally, my wife who is struggling in her own life and telling me she wants me out of our life asks me go to the beach and I'd go. I'd have the hope that it'd be a pleasant environment to get both sides out in a neutral ground and create positives in the "us" rather than the ongoing negatives. It's almost as if you're allowing your behavior to fuel her feelings of wanting to get out rather than halting them. Maybe this means you want out too but I think you should be honest with yourself.



You're wrong about the beach thing. We've been doing lots of things together, and she would always remind me that she wants out. I lost interest in entertaining her. 
She has been pounding my brain with her desires to be alone, and I've been taking it like a man. 
I want to be on a beach with someone that truly enjoys my company. 
Right now, she doesn't, and neither do I.

We need a "timeout". No question about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

She desires being alone... then leave her alone. Give her ALL the freedom she wants.


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## Undertheradar

Jellybeans said:


> She desires being alone... then leave her alone. Give her ALL the freedom she wants.


Yep....

Funny story from today....

She comes home from work, and tells me that she was offered a different position. It pays about 2.00 more per hour, and would give her stabilized hours too.
She felt like discussing it, and wanted my input. 
( Oh, I see... I need hubby time)

So she shows me her new paycheck, to which I comment: "that's good", "it'll make life a little easier for you later on"
To which she commented "I'm not going anywhere". 
I just walked out of the room, shaking my head.

To be honest.... I can't see how anyone can do what she's doing. This woman is either crazy or viscous, or both.
Just when you think you know someone..... You don't.


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## 8yearscheating

You are antagonizing her and making her feel your completely done. You will get your wish if you keep it up. Quit playing games and start to work on healing both of you.


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## 8yearscheating

Did you ever consider she is actually trying and it's not a conspiracy? You have become jaded. If your done, file.


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## Powerbane

8yearscheating said:


> Did you ever consider she is actually trying and it's not a conspiracy? You have become jaded. If your done, file.


8 beat me to it. 

Start listening and looking at body language she is showing. If you're presenting an accurate portrayal - I don't think she is done with the relationship with you at all. 

Stop a relationship talk. If she brings it up - just reinforce your boundaries that you will not put up with less than all of her and you will not allow an OM or being her backup plan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton

Never thought I'd so easily agree but I absolutely do, with both of the last two posts.


----------



## magnoliagal

Ok when she said she's not going anywhere why didn't you ask her why she keeps saying she doesn't want to be married? Does she really want to work on the marriage or is this just a game to her? Not understanding her last comment. Is she trying?


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## troy

I have to agree also. To me, she seems genuinely interested in working on the marriage. Sure she has caused you a great deal of pain, but I say, if you still want your marriage get busy trying to save it and put the mind games aside. If you still love this woman tell her so and get started on the long road to reconcilliation. 

I wish my wife gave me this chance. Thats all I am asking her for but she refuses.


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## 8yearscheating

What would you call her actions? Some of the posters on this thread have him convinced it's a conspiracy with all the negative side pushing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Undertheradar

8yearscheating said:


> Did you ever consider she is actually trying and it's not a conspiracy? You have become jaded. If your done, file.


Have you read most of this thread?

My wife has been telling me for three months, that she has noting to give, doesn't love me, wants to be alone, doesn't want to be married anymore, had an EA, etc....
Should I roll out the red carpet, as soon as she shines a little light on our relationship

FWIW.... she could say it all day long. What she really needs to do, is start acting like a woman that longs for her husband. In between her words, she's still cold as ice.
I would prefer, at this time to keep my distance.
I honestly don't trust her.

FWIW.... She didn't say much the rest of the evening. HOWEVER, at one point of the night, she blurts out of nowhere, how WRONG I am for thinking she had an EA. I asked her where this came from, and she said she wanted to make a point.
I didn't engage, other than to ask her the benefits of of texting a third party, developing feelings for him, and spending every spare moment with that person?
I asked how it could help a marriage.
She gave me a simple dirty look and walked away.


----------



## Undertheradar

8yearscheating said:


> What would you call her actions? Some of the posters on this thread have him convinced it's a conspiracy with all the negative side pushing
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Her actions are manipulating at best. Right now, her goal is to make me think all is honky - dorey, while she has her fun.

She hasn't shown me anything positive. Her words mean nothing right now.


----------



## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> Ok when she said she's not going anywhere why didn't you ask her why she keeps saying she doesn't want to be married? Does she really want to work on the marriage or is this just a game to her? Not understanding her last comment. Is she trying?


Yes, I did ask her

Her response, "I can't help the way I feel". "I need time to work through this. I'm not sure what I want."

Nothing's changed.

I'll stop throwing little digs at this point.
Not worth it.


----------



## Undertheradar

Powerbane said:


> 8 beat me to it.
> 
> Start listening and looking at body language she is showing. If you're presenting an accurate portrayal - I don't think she is done with the relationship with you at all.
> 
> Stop a relationship talk. If she brings it up - just reinforce your boundaries that you will not put up with less than all of her and you will not allow an OM or being her backup plan.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Makes a lot of sense to do this. I really don't want to talk about it either.
I gave her the "I want all of her speech a couple days ago.
She basically told me she couldn't do it.


----------



## magnoliagal

Undertheradar said:


> Yes, I did ask her
> 
> Her response, "I can't help the way I feel". "I need time to work through this. I'm not sure what I want."
> 
> Nothing's changed.
> 
> I'll stop throwing little digs at this point.
> Not worth it.


Ok just checking. That last post made it sound like she was sincere (I didn't buy it btw) but wanted to make sure you clarified yourself since several here felt the need to criticize. They have no idea what you are dealing with.


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## 8yearscheating

It's not criticizing, it's offering the perspective that many here have pushed on hard on her lying completely, it being a conspiracy or cake eating and not worth the effort. WS's come back slowly most of the time, and test the waters as they do. If they get burned, criticized, snarked at or bitten they withdraw and take the easy way out.
He needs to consider his reactions and whether or not he is slamming to door to any possibility of R. The 180 as written is bad IMHO because it does slam the door, cuts off communication and makes no mention of knocking it off immediately if a little light shines through from the WS. It does not allow for a safe haven for the WS when that shred of hope from them appears. In doing so, it garauntees and end.


----------



## 8yearscheating

I agree the decision is totally up to him. Her behaviors are atrocious and common. I don't know all his details nor do I know where he wants to draw the line. But I do sense he still holds hope for R. Allowing anger and resentment to cloud his thinking and negative posts about her reinforce that, he may be making a mistake he will regret down the road.


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## 8yearscheating

By the way, her responses are typical FOG. In a way, they indicate an uncertainty to be done with the relationship - a glimmer of hope.


----------



## magnoliagal

8years - you may be right. I will be the first to admit I'm a ball buster type personality so UR should take that into consideration. When someone tells me they want out I let them go. I don't cling as I find it unattractive. It would hurt like hell yes and I'd grieve but I'd let them go. Might not run out to an attorney right away on the hopes that they'd come to their senses but at the very least they'd have to find a new place to live while in that fog. They think the grass is greener my attitude would be then go find out. I wish you well. Can I help you pack?


----------



## Trenton

magnoliagal said:


> 8years - you may be right. I will be the first to admit I'm a ball buster type personality so UR should take that into consideration. When someone tells me they want out I let them go. I don't cling as I find it unattractive. It would hurt like hell yes and I'd grieve but I'd let them go. Might not run out to an attorney right away on the hopes that they'd come to their senses but at the very least they'd have to find a new place to live while in that fog. They think the grass is greener my attitude would be then go find out. I wish you well. Can I help you pack?


Believe it or not so am I (almost to an extreme) but I've found if you want a real connection and relationship with your spouse you have to make room for compassion and understanding as to where and why they are behaving the way they are.

I know the wife's behavior in this relationship is irresponsible, unfair and cruel but I don't see it as not repairable. She has flirted with being single and taken satisfaction in connections with others but she has not cheated in the classic way and I feel she really needs to feel a stronger connection and feeling of worth from the relationship. 

Any game playing or tit for tat and he is only backing up what she already believes...which is that he's not good enough for her and doesn't really want a longstanding, strong relationship with her in which she has room to be herself and be a wonderful wife to him as well.


----------



## Undertheradar

8yearscheating said:


> By the way, her responses are typical FOG. In a way, they indicate an uncertainty to be done with the relationship - a glimmer of hope.


Yes, I feel that she is weighing her options. However, as long as she resents me for breaking her EA, it's going to be difficult. The mistake I've been making up until now (thanks to TAM), is that I've been accepting her abusive behavior. She's been either very angry or legitimately done with the R. My history with her tells me that she has the ability to stay mad for a very long time. Breaking up an EA is dangerous with a person like this. What's making it worse, is that the EA wants to have nothing to do with her.
So everyday at work, she gets reminded about her breakup. Yes, they still work together 



magnoliagal said:


> 8years - you may be right. I will be the first to admit I'm a ball buster type personality so UR should take that into consideration. When someone tells me they want out I let them go. I don't cling as I find it unattractive. It would hurt like hell yes and I'd grieve but I'd let them go. Might not run out to an attorney right away on the hopes that they'd come to their senses but at the very least they'd have to find a new place to live while in that fog. They think the grass is greener my attitude would be then go find out. I wish you well. Can I help you pack?


Honestly, I wish I had the ability to do that, without feeling remorseful. I ask myself every day.... Why do I want to be with someone, that blatantly admits wanting out? The ONLY thing that's stopping me, is that I have the slightest suspicion that she's in the fog, and will get over it in time. I DO want to save my marriage, but I DON'T want to be abused for it either.



8yearscheating said:


> I agree the decision is totally up to him. Her behaviors are atrocious and common. I don't know all his details nor do I know where he wants to draw the line. But I do sense he still holds hope for R. Allowing anger and resentment to cloud his thinking and negative posts about her reinforce that, he may be making a mistake he will regret down the road.


I've been drawing lines little by little. Up until a week ago, I gave no indication that her selfish, cold actions were bothering me. I let her do this,because I felt I lacked the understanding about these EA's.
After learning quite a bit, I realize that I should let her know her behavior will result in her losing her marriage.
Just this morning, she did something again.
I put on my FB, that it would be nice to say hello to some friends I haven't spoken to. It was my way of generating a fun thread, and nothing more. She sees the thread, and asks me if I expect her to say hello too. I said she could do whatever she wants. Her response (in front of the kids)... Why should I.
I did nothing to deserve that. She's being a total b*tch.

A few minutes later, I engaged. I told her that I'm getting fed up (again) with her verbal and mental abuse, and I suggested that she take a day by herself, and rethink her strategy. I told her, that it's obvious that she's still pissed about her EA, and lashing out. I told her she needs to get over it, before our marriage gets flushed because of it. I told her that my daughter asked me why mommy is always being mean to me. That's enough for me to hear.
She rolled her eyes, and walked away.

You have no idea what I'm dealing with.


----------



## 8yearscheating

Your right we don't. But bickering begets more bickering.


----------



## Undertheradar

8yearscheating said:


> Your right we don't. But bickering begets more bickering.


Oh, believe me, I don't want to bicker.


----------



## 8yearscheating

Then when she starts in on you, politely say I will not be treated this way. When you can talk to me pleasantly and without attacking me or our marriage, we can talk. Talk only in terms of how you feel, not what I have or have not done. Then walk away.


----------



## Undertheradar

8yearscheating said:


> Then when she starts in on you, politely say I will not be treated this way. When you can talk to me pleasantly and without attacking me or our marriage, we can talk. Talk only in terms of how you feel, not what I have or have not done. Then walk away.


I agree.
I made my point. I needed her to know that I've had enough. I never let her on to that. I needed to dig into her a bit, and see what she was thinking.

I'm OK, she's OK.
It's time I back off, and let things cool off.

If she decides to come at me, I'll take your approach.
For now, I think it's best I stay away..
We don't like each other right now.


----------



## Undertheradar

*Today's update:
*
Wifey decides she'd like to talk. I proceeded with caution, because her talks are usually focussed on proving herself righteous.

I decided to be a better listener for today.

She decided to open up about her EA. She again enforced that he was just a friend (I also feel he was, and was NOT a threat for a PA), HOWEVER, she did acknowledge that from the outside looking in, it may have looked very wrong. I briefly reminded her that anyone that takes 20 hours a day, and 16,000 texts away in a three month period, from their marriage, is doing something they shouldn't be doing, regardless of how innocent she may have thought it was. She agreed, I agreed, and I continued to listen. She confessed that she got caught up in the "new job", new friend thing, and it was exciting for her to make new friends, outside of her normal life of mother and housewife. For the first time, I had gotten a hint of remorse from her.
At that point I agreed to drop the whole EA thing. I feel there are more important issues to contend with.
At that point, I simply reminded her that our issues had taken on a whole different perspective, beyond just the fact that she made a "new friend" at work, and got carried away. I highlighted just a few issues, such as wanting to leave, not being in love anymore, and her wanting time to "think about whether or not she wants to be married".
I told her that her words sunk deep, and would require a lot more than a 5 minute conversation over coffee.

I had a few things to do, and decided to peacefully end the conversation.

FWIW... I'm still "shut down" by her actions, and it probably prompted her to have this talk. I would have to guess that she's starting to see a different husband, one that's paying a lot less attention to her these days, and maybe reality is kicking in.

I asked if we could just leave our conversation where it is for today, let this conversation sink in for a couple days.


----------



## magnoliagal

Well done. Remorse. That is the key ingredient that has been missing all along. Great job actually getting that from her. That is the first step out of the fog to acknowledge how actions have consequences outside herself. Maybe she is starting to get it.

BTW you got it because you were able to listen without getting her defensive. Thats why I say well done. You've come a really long way. You should be proud.


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## sammy3

As I read and follow (most of your story), I wonder has there been any healing on either side healed ? or are the wounds just getting rawer by the day ?

My husband had an affair for 8 months, it started with txting, txting, and txting. Are you sure your wife's didn't go farther? She may still be hiding something.


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## Undertheradar

sammy3 said:


> As I read and follow (most of your story), I wonder has there been any healing on either side healed ? or are the wounds just getting rawer by the day ?
> 
> My husband had an affair for 8 months, it started with txting, txting, and txting. Are you sure your wife's didn't go farther? She may still be hiding something.


Of course we could never be sure. But in this case, I'd bet she didn't. The individual involved doesn't fit the mold. He's more on the feminine side, and if anything, just made my wife laugh about gay jokes.
Of course when this started, I had no idea who I was dealing with.

Since then, I've learned quite a bit through my own investigations, and have some concrete proof that nothing happened PA.

Of greater concern is the fact that my wife expressed a strong desire to leave her marriage, because she felt my actions were controlling, by ending her friendship at work.
At the time, her actions gave me every reason to believe she was cheating. And from what I now understand, texting with a third party, even though the conversation may not be romantic, could be enough to ruin a marriage. Especially if it excessive.

As far as healing... NO,no healing just yet. Too many unanswered questions. Lots of horrible things were said the past few months.
Trust has to be rebuilt, plus the words "I'm not in love anymore" would have to retracted. I'm not sure if that's possible, or if that was the "fog" talking.

I need to learn more, before drawing any conclusions.

Right now, my guard is up, and staying there.


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## 8yearscheating

Great job under!!! I will tell you my biggest mistake with my wife was my take charge, wilting voice and aggressive manner when something wasn't going right. Al it did was cause her shut down and run - usually into the arms of the OM. I have had to learn to keep my voice soft, listen and reflect what she says - like "so you feel upset at ....." and let her talk. As men, we have a bad habit of wanting to fix everything right now. Many times it's best to just listen and not comment or try to fix it in that conversation but to wait and actively listen. Later come back to it after you have had a chance to digest what her feelings are and state only your feelings about it - not try to fix it. That is something you discuss and come to an agreement on and it usually takes compromise on both sides. The key is not to jam a decision down her throat. If you don't both agree on the outcome whole heartedly, there will be resentment and the agreement is really useless. FOllowing this approach really took some getting used to for me. But I've found battles don't occur anymore and we stay much happier without the battle wounds to heal. Those wounds are what causes love to decay to the level your wife was voicing. It only takes one oh **** to destroy 20 atta boys!

Again great job!!!


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## sammy3

I have been telling my husband is that I cant even consider recovery until I am further along in the healing process. When will that be? I am guessing time will help tell when we see some of our healing taking place. I told him I can promise him nothing yet. Within healing (some what in a little better place) can we only start to make sound decisions where we will be. Hopefully entering into the R stage. Again, I told him I could not promise him anything then,even though I know I still love him. 

Your story scares me, because it seem to end (or close to) coming without much healing within yourself, or your wife. I am not confusing healing w forgiveness. I am only thinking of myself , when I say I need to heal first, and am I being foolish to think this way? I hope healing will give me a clearer mind. Maybe you should just call a big time out, back away and let the dust settle a bit before deciding what YOU want. 

Your wife hasn't crossed the line yet, do you know how I would give my eye tooth to have that as starting point. This is a big warning sign for you both, you both still can repair, but you have to be on the same page. I hope and pray you both get there.

~sammy


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## Undertheradar

sammy3 said:


> I have been telling my husband is that I cant even consider recovery until I am further along in the healing process. When will that be? I am guessing time will help tell when we see some of our healing taking place. I told him I can promise him nothing yet. Within healing (some what in a little better place) can we only start to make sound decisions where we will be. Hopefully entering into the R stage. Again, I told him I could not promise him anything then,even though I know I still love him.
> 
> Your story scares me, because it seem to end (or close to) coming without much healing within yourself, or your wife. I am not confusing healing w forgiveness. I am only thinking of myself , when I say I need to heal first, and am I being foolish to think this way? I hope healing will give me a clearer mind. Maybe you should just call a big time out, back away and let the dust settle a bit before deciding what YOU want.
> 
> Your wife hasn't crossed the line yet, do you know how I would give my eye tooth to have that as starting point. This is a big warning sign for you both, you both still can repair, but you have to be on the same page. I hope and pray you both get there.
> 
> ~sammy


I have to be honest.... If my wife had a PA, there wouldn't be a chance in hell, that we'd be together.

If the EA was nothing more than a childish mistake, I can live with that. I've been with my wife since she's 22. She never had anyone give her loving attention besides me, and she may have gotten carried away. Then there's always the comfort zone that two people fall into, after many years of togetherness. I'm also allowing for her to have questioned her heart, because of our age difference too. (I'm 52, she's 37). It's never been n issue before, but you never know.
The part that truly scares me, is the fact that she wanted out. She did say that she's considered it before, and my actions towards her co worker were the last straw. 
Now I wonder if this is the beginning of more episodes, or maybe this had to get out of her system. I honestly don't know.

Only time will tell. For now, I've decided to take an educated approach, and see what happens.

I will say this much... She's put me through hell for almost 4 months. I don't think a simple "I'm sorry" will cut it.


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## Deejo

My ex has a plaque in her room that I find down right ironic, but, I absolutely agree with:

"Well done is always better than well said."

In other words, actions speak louder than words.

So start paying more attention to what she is doing or what her body is saying, rather than what is coming out of her mouth.

And for you? Just remember, you have moved past letting her 'escapades' get under your skin. She will without a doubt continue to see if she can get a 'rise' out of you to test whether or not you are going to revert to hurt, anger, and emotional lashing out. Don't do it. Calm, cool, collected.


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## Undertheradar

Deejo said:


> My ex has a plaque in her room that I find down right ironic, but, I absolutely agree with:
> 
> "Well done is always better than well said."
> 
> In other words, actions speak louder than words.
> 
> So start paying more attention to what she is doing or what her body is saying, rather than what is coming out of her mouth.
> 
> And for you? Just remember, you have moved past letting her 'escapades' get under your skin. She will without a doubt continue to see if she can get a 'rise' out of you to test whether or not you are going to revert to hurt, anger, and emotional lashing out. Don't do it. Calm, cool, collected.


OMG, you read my mind!
I was just saying to myself, that she's been so calculated for the past three+ months, and I'm not expecting her to make a u turn.

Here's a list of things that have disappeared, and I expect to see from a physical standpoint.

1) I need to see more of a "I'll do for you" attitude. So far, nada, nothing. ... and I'm not expecting it under the circumstances.
2) I feel as if she has no sexual or or any desire whatsoever to come near me. If she does, I'll know if it's for real or not. Not even, holding an arm, or a touch in an affectionate way. I get pity touches. I now know the differences.
3) An interest in the household. This is a big one for me. She hasn't cooked a meal in 4 months. Her exact words were describing how she retired from doing family sundays, and dinner. That was another way of her saying "I don't want to be a wife"... Now I get it.
4) Daily contact, and an overall interest in my well being. That was there before, and i expect it now. Right now, we're on a "don't call me, unless you have to" terms, and I don't like it.
5) Social outdoor activity. Big one. We used to ride bikes. play handball, go for walks in the park or beach, and make it our business to do little things like that. So far..we haven't had that at all, and it seems to be forgotten. 

That's a partial list. I'm really not expecting any of it right now, nor do i want to mask our true feelings, by having so much fun.

I want to see some genuine sincerity from this woman, and I'd have to see it consistently to believe her.

Something good happened the past few day.... She was offered a different position at work, and it requires more responsibility, and concentration. Since this is her first job in 17 years, she's been leaning on my expertise to help her get it. I've been coaching her for her interviews, and giving her pointers to make her stand out amongst her competition.
What this has done, is made her realize that clowning around at work will cost her an opportunity. She also mentioned how being involved with the EA would have killed her chance at getting the position. So I get the feeling that she's maturing into her job, and the fun aspect may be a thing of the past.
I'm encouraging her to get the position, and I'm supporting her 100%. I want to do this for two reasons. If she is considering a breakup, (still is very possible), her additional pay is important. Also, having the additional responsibility would take her mind off what's happened, and allow us to focus on going forward. Not necessarily together.

Finally, even though I may appear optimistic, I strongly feel that my wife wants out for reasons I still haven't heard. I feel that the physical attraction is gone, and she just doesn't want to hurt me all together. Don't forget, she's 37 and very beautiful. I'm 52, and the stress of the past few years have taken its toll on my appearance. When she looks at me, I never get the impression that she wants to jump my bones anymore. I could hate her, and that feeling never goes away for me... But I guess that's how it goes.

I'll take the odds that she leaves me, as soon as she figures out how to pay for it.
That's why I'm supporting her. I'd rather her not stay with me, against her will and desire.

I'll position her to leave, open the door, give her enough money, and see if she walks. That's the only way to test her heart. At least, I think it is.


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## Undertheradar

Another Update:

Yep, she's turning the corner. If there was a fog, I see signs that it's lifting.... maybe.
You decide.

Last night, she walked over to me, and thanked me for my support at her job.
She also took the time to apologize for everything she put me through. She admitted being very upset with the way I handled her "alleged" EA, and felt that it was controlling. However, she also admitted that she would have acted the same way, if I brought some young chick's text with me, wherever I went.

Again, I chose to be cautious, and listen as much as I can. I didn't want to cave in 100%, but I let out some rope.

I strayed away from the subject a bit, and told her that I want her to excel at work. 
She knew why I said that (earlier reference to being self supportive).
She looked at me, and told me she misses me, and told me she loves me. She hugged me for quite some time, and I just went along. I said nothing, but I did reciprocate the hug.
At that point, I wasn't sure what to do. I still don't trust her, but I had gotten the feeling that she was "in touch" with me for the first time in months.

After a few moments, my daughter needed her, and she went her way with the little one.

This morning, she left for work, and for the first time in months, walked over to me, hugged me and kissed me goodbye.
I simply suggested she have a great day, and I'll cross paths with her later.

Where do I go from here?
I'm afraid of her. I don't 100% trust her actions, and I'm still upset with the 4 months of hell she put me through.
At the same time, I don't want to rehash over and over again.
We know what happened, and I want to forget it.


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## Deejo

Undertheradar said:


> Where do I go from here?
> *I'm afraid of her*. I don't 100% trust her actions, and I'm still upset with the 4 months of hell she put me through.
> At the same time, I don't want to rehash over and over again.
> We know what happened, and I want to forget it.


"I'm afraid of her." Eliminating THAT. That's where you go from here.
"Fear" has no place in a healthy relationship. You don't have a healthy relationship. Acknowledge that, and work from there.

Instead of waiting for her to become the partner you want her to be, discover the kind of partner she needs.

You should start to engage her. But don't throw yourself in the deep end.

Very simple way to get started? Ask her this question:

"What do you need?"

Not, 'what do you need from me?'. Relate the conversation outside of the scope of you. Get her talking about herself, and do what you have been doing which appears to be having damn good results ... listen.

If she doesn't know? That tells you something.

What I'm trying to emphasize is that you cannot, should not, approach addressing these things from a place of fear. Fear of rejection, fear of loss.

She hurt you. Let it go. Hanging onto it or waving it in her face when you don't like where things are going won't serve what you want ... which is obviously to recover your marriage if, recovery is possible. And that's a fine thing to want.

At this point, let her bring up discussions about the relationship. And if she does, engage her. 

As for you? Keep that phrase in mind. "Well done is always better than well said." Be a great partner instead of talking or thinking about being a great partner. Sometimes what will make you great ... is NOT trying to prove a blessed thing to her, and being the man you were before you ever laid eyes on your wife. After all, that's the guy she fell in love with.


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## Undertheradar

WhiteRabbit said:


> Go to counseling with her and fix your marriage.
> 
> She wouldn't have needed the alleged EA if she wasn't missing something from her relationship with you. You both need counseling. Obviously.One minute she hates you and she's leaving. One minute you feel like you're starting to hate her and you're leaving. You get upset when she shows affection toward you and seemed to get great enjoyment from watching her struggle through a mixed bag of emotions. She seemed to enjoy watching you struggle with her various words and actions as well.
> Both of you seem to get off from causing the other person pain.
> 
> Get to therapy.Asap.



Whoa!

No one got any enjoyment from anything that went on! Yes, my wife wanted to leave me. And yes, that could be difficult to handle for anyone.
And YES, it's easy to begin to hate someone for causing so much grief, especially when the reasons aren't justified.

No I don't get pleasure from watching her go through her mixed bag. I don't trust her emotions. In many instances, they were premeditated, and only used to negotiate something she wanted. 
Do you honestly think I like this cr*p?

And NO, we don't get off watching each other hurt. My marriage became an emotional tug o war, and i didn't know how to handle it. 

Up until now, what do you think I should have done?

That's why I came here.


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## Undertheradar

WhiteRabbit said:


> From what I've read, she got a high from torturing you and punishing you for ending her EA. You,in turn,got a high from getting back at her for torturing you.
> 
> Both of you play games. Rather than just saying exactly what you want,what you need...you both chose to dance around things.
> 
> But it sounds like she's coming around. So there's hope for you. Still think MC would be beneficial in helping you both sort through learning how to communicate effectively.


NO That's NOT true!
If she had her reasons for torturing me, that's her.
I initially reacted by chasing her. Then ( at the advice of many around here), I pulled back. It wasn't a game, and I didn't get off. I tried to let her know that her actions were no longer accepted, and engaging.


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## turnera

The main answer I always give people, no matter what the situation, is this:
Take the high road.

That way, no matter what happens - and a lot of shyte happens to a lot of people, there's no avoiding it - YOU know that YOU acted with dignity, kindness, and integrity.

She's having trouble; did you agree when you married to support each other through trouble? Of course you did. So support her (as long as there's no OM). Show her what dignity looks like. 

And by all means, find a good counselor and find out what went on with her so you can fill whatever void she was finding. This could be a time where you step up to the plate and LEAD your family.

In the meantime, print out the Love Buster questionnaire from MB and ask her if she'd be willing to fill it out. It will help you learn your LBs so you can focus on removing them from your marriage. KEY first step.


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## magnoliagal

Undertheradar said:


> Where do I go from here?
> *I'm afraid of her.* I don't 100% trust her actions, and I'm still upset with the 4 months of hell she put me through.
> At the same time, I don't want to rehash over and over again.
> We know what happened, and I want to forget it.


I'm with Deejo this has to be eliminated. No matter what has happened you cannot should not ever ever ever fear her. You need to work on yourself to get over this fear.

What exactly is it that you are afraid of? Not that it matters because you have to face it head on. I think you will find if you face it and walk through it it's not as bad as you think.


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## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> I'm with Deejo this has to be eliminated. No matter what has happened you cannot should not ever ever ever fear her. You need to work on yourself to get over this fear.
> 
> What exactly is it that you are afraid of? Not that it matters because you have to face it head on. I think you will find if you face it and walk through it it's not as bad as you think.


LOL... I'm not AFRAID of her, ...like in scared.
I guess I was trying to say that I "fear' her words and actions are not true.


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## 8yearscheating

Trust will take time to rebuild. ON the flip side, if you keep rejecting her by being a cold fish she will stop trying. Best way to rebuild trust is to try and give her an opportunityto show you she's serious. Slamming the door won't start that process.


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## 8yearscheating

Oh and don't forget to look at yourslef andhow you reacted. Yesshe was being a ***** and hammering you. You lashed back and pretty soon it was back forth bashing. There is never an end to peace negotiations unless BOTH compromise. Take a hard look at yourself through HER eyes my friend.


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## magnoliagal

You still have to face that fear. If she tries you have to at least throw her a bone otherwise yes she will stop. What do you have to lose?

When I started working on my own marriage I found I was scared of it all. But then I started asking myself the question what is the worst thing that could happen? I answered that question. The worst would be that I tried and either it didn't work or he rejected me. Then I thought but at least then I'd know. I'd be out of limbo and I could move on. I could get a job, move out, start a new life or I could decide to stay but either way I'd know. I gained peace from knowing that no matter what happened I could handle it. And so can you. 

The fears are unfounded. Let them go.


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## sammy3

UR is still the man he was before he ever laid his eyes on his wife, it just the years, experiences, and baggage that distorts our own vision of our partner's. 

These are two people who are hurting and trying their best to get through this crap and get their lives at least somewhat on course, with or without each other, as we all are here.... I don't think many honest people who want to do right by their marriage are "savvy enough' to play games at this point in time,... their mind frame is just trying to deal with it all that is happening


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## Undertheradar

Well.... FWIW, I got a mid morning call from her on her break.... She hasn't called me on her morning break in 3 months. 
Something apparently went off inside her head, for her to stop the games.
I'm OK, I'll deal with it.
I was as nice as always used to be, and I welcomed the call. She said she was thinking about me (??? SOMETHING turned her 180 ???), and she wanted me to have a nice day.
I thanked her, and told her to enjoy her day too.

Then came the "test" ..... ( I don't know why)..She said she was doing lunch with a few co workers. They were going to the diner. Given the situation, she probably expected me to back up a bit, and ask who was going. (expecting me to ask about the EA). I chose to simply say "have a great time", and I'll see you tonight. It was then, that she said, just a few girls are going. I just said, that's OK, it wouldn't matter who goes.
Her response: "wow, I like the new you"

I'm keeping you guys updated, so you can paint your own picture.

Do I think my wife changed her tune? .. YES, I do. However, there were issues, and reasons for what took place.
I'm gonna continue to keep peace, and stay off the topic. HOWEVER, I would like to get to MC to find out why so much has happened.
How do you get to MC, when her perception of her life suddenly changed.

If you were listening, you'd never know what's been going on.


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## magnoliagal

Why can't you go to IC? You don't need her to participate. I've done monumental changes just with me going. He hasn't stepped one foot in MC. It's been all me. He says he will go I'm just not ready for that yet.


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## turnera

I often suggest that you incorporate a once-a-week discussion, after kids are in bed, like on Sunday night. Discuss only then what's good and bad in the marriage, and what to do about it. Come back a week later to see what's changed. Keep it going. The rest of the week is for strengthening the marriage, not discussing it.


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## Jellybeans

Have you asked her to go to MC with you???


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## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> Why can't you go to IC? You don't need her to participate. I've done monumental changes just with me going. He hasn't stepped one foot in MC. It's been all me. He says he will go I'm just not ready for that yet.


Yes, I feel I would benefit from IC. I'll look into it.

If this situation is coming to pass, then I need to know how it got here.
I'll continue to work on "me".

I still don't know what changed her. I suspect some form of closure at work, and a timely advancement in her position. 
Maybe she woke up and realized that play time is over? I don't know.

I do need to get some IC, so I don't get caught off guard again.


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## magnoliagal

What changed was YOU! Had you not done what you have been doing you'd be right were you were.

IC is the bomb!! I go every other week. Best money spent ever. We already have a relationship as I've been seeing this woman off and on for 12 years. She's like a life coach more than a shrink. I trust her and tell her anything. She's fabulous. She has truly saved my life and my marriage.


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## mary35

While IC is good - I really think for this marriage MC would be better. This problem was caused by both of you - her actions and your re-actions (which are understandable and I think even justified). But the bottom line is there was a break down in your marriage and in your relationship, probably with long term consequences.

Can you have a frank conversation with her about what has happened these past months and let her know that you understand that you both have contributed to the problem? The fact is that this situation has changed the dynamics of your marriage and relationship and the natural consequence is that there is damage that needs to be repaired. In my opinion, it is important that you BOTH figure out together why this happened and figure out how you BOTH can help it not to happen again. 

Do IC on the side, if you feel the need.


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## Deejo

Marriage counseling is good.

Marriage counseling with a partner that feels coerced or dragged into counseling? Is a waste of time. They may work past their resistance ... and come around. Or worse, they pay it and you, lip-service.

If she WANTS her marriage to be more fulfilling, than counseling should be a no-brainer.

If she is still playing games ... she won't be interested, because she will feel like she's going to be called out or challenged.

Keep doing what you are doing. It may not look extraordinary from where you sit ... but don't sell short the fact that your dynamic HAS shifted. That doesn't just happen without one or both partners facilitating that shift.

And I don't mean to suggest that you are afraid of your wife. The fear is more about uncertainty. Which is exactly what you have. Don't worry about doing or saying the right thing. Once you have found your feet, and less focused on whether or not she is trying to hurt you ... or jeopardize the marriage, you will simply know what needs to be said, or needs to happen.


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## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> What changed was YOU! Had you not done what you have been doing you'd be right were you were.
> 
> IC is the bomb!! I go every other week. Best money spent ever. We already have a relationship as I've been seeing this woman off and on for 12 years. She's like a life coach more than a shrink. I trust her and tell her anything. She's fabulous. She has truly saved my life and my marriage.


Yes, acknowledged. However, the ONLY change I made, was showing her that I wasn't pursuing the issue anymore. I'm less receptive to her needs now, and apparently, this is what made her happy (or whatever she is). OTOH, she very well, could feel a moral victory here, because she got what she wanted..... That was to back me off, give her space, and not question anything, in any capacity.

Now, in her defense, this may not be a bad thing. I really don't want to bother her. I don't like to smother or chase her. I'm hoping that she developed a sense of boundaries within our marriage, and would use better judgement going forward.



mary35 said:


> While IC is good - I really think for this marriage MC would be better. This problem was caused by both of you - her actions and your re-actions (which are understandable and I think even justified). But the bottom line is there was a break down in your marriage and in your relationship, probably with long term consequences.
> 
> 
> Can you have a frank conversation with her about what has happened these past months and let her know that you understand that you both have contributed to the problem? The fact is that this situation has changed the dynamics of your marriage and relationship and the natural consequence is that there is damage that needs to be repaired. In my opinion, it is important that you BOTH figure out together why this happened and figure out how you BOTH can help it not to happen again.
> 
> Do IC on the side, if you feel the need.


I agree. But right now, if I were to introduce MC, she would see it as a way to corner her. I'll let a little time pass for now.

I can have a frank conversation with her, but I do see that a couple minutes into it, she starts to close up. She doesn't want to hear about her mistake.
FWIW..... I know from a past VAR, that she knows exactly what she did, and how wrong it was.
She said she was surprised I didn't kill her and him. 
(So am I)



Deejo said:


> Marriage counseling is good.
> 
> Marriage counseling with a partner that feels coerced or dragged into counseling? Is a waste of time. They may work past their resistance ... and come around. Or worse, they pay it and you, lip-service.
> 
> If she WANTS her marriage to be more fulfilling, than counseling should be a no-brainer.
> 
> If she is still playing games ... she won't be interested, because she will feel like she's going to be called out or challenged.
> 
> Keep doing what you are doing. It may not look extraordinary from where you sit ... but don't sell short the fact that your dynamic HAS shifted. That doesn't just happen without one or both partners facilitating that shift.
> 
> And I don't mean to suggest that you are afraid of your wife. The fear is more about uncertainty. Which is exactly what you have. Don't worry about doing or saying the right thing. Once you have found your feet, and less focused on whether or not she is trying to hurt you ... or jeopardize the marriage, you will simply know what needs to be said, or needs to happen.


I know my dynamic has shifted. I don't think she's out to hurt me anymore. Knowing her, I would guess that she's out to complete her transaction with me. 
What I mean, is to obtain a sense of total freedom (even though she's married), a sense of independence (she got married young, and was a SAHM her whole life).
My SMART course of action, is to let her go where she wants to go.
If she WANTS to go out to places that I don't approve of, I have no intention of stopping her. If she wants to have her freedom.... as long as my family doesn't suffer as a result, I'll deal with it.

At the end of the day, I want to see who my wife truly is, and then we could both get a better sense of whether or not we should be together.

At least, the bickering, and fighting seems to have stopped. Now I need to give her as much rope as possible.

It's the only way to get her to show me how she perceives her life.


----------



## Jellybeans

Just ask her if she's up for MC with you. If you don't ask, you'll never know. Especially if she's starting to act receptive to you.


----------



## Undertheradar

*UPDATE.....

The wifey decides to go into jealousy mode!!!*

OK, so tonight I decided it was a nice night to iron some shirts. (Yes, I like to iron my own shirts. It takes me back to my bachelor days)
Along the way, I find an old bottle of Cucci cologne in my closet, and I simply put it on my dresser.
About 10 minutes later, she comes into the BR, and asks me why I got new cologne. I'm like huh? You talkin to me?

She replies, yeh...iron the shirts, new cologne, and who's this FB chick that keeps replying to you? (my friend's wife,....she doesn't know her  ). 
I didn't answer. She kept coming.

Finally, I said WHOA!!! This is coming from YOU? The same person that's been daydreaming for the past 4 months!! I didn't want to attack. I really didn't know how to react.

At that point, I decided NOT to engage anymore, thinking that it could been some kind of manipulation. I remembered I had to take something to a friend's house, and told her I had to go before it got too late.

You guys have been following this from day one.....

WHAT THE HELL JUST HAPPENED? 
WHERE DOES JEALOUSY COME FROM A WOMAN, THAT WANTED OUT SO BADLY?

This took me by surprise.


Opinions are welcomed.


----------



## turnera

Actually goes along with what we've been telling you - detach, and they will pursue. It's human nature. That's why they call it cake eating - they want YOU to want them, but they want someone else, too.


----------



## Trenton

WhiteRabbit said:


> means she didn't mean it deep down when she said she wasn't in love with you anymore. she was just trying to convince herself that there was something else out there for her that she could love more...obviously there's nothing else out there she wants more than you.
> 
> if she didn't care about you...she wouldn't be territorial and afraid to lose you. she may be afraid of losing her lifestyle and home life but she's also afraid of losing the man she loves.


I agree with this. If she didn't have feelings for you the game playing wouldn't make her jealous. In fact, she most likely wouldn't notice it at all.


----------



## 8yearscheating

Your surprised because of all of the bickering and weird things she was saying before. It was a control issue with her regarding the EA. She DID begin to understand what she was doing wrong and was coming back to even if seemed like it was slow process. This is why I told you it was stronger return than you were reading and you needed to open the door and quit being remote. She is in fact ready to come back fully. Fast forward to this event. You haven't changed your detached mode of dealing with her. She sees something that she thinks is you straying. The OMG thoughts hit her along with jealousy and fear your going away.

DO NOT PLAY WITH THIS. As enticing as it may be to get her back, don't do it. Feel good about it. Revel in the love she's showing even if it's a twisted way. IMMEDIATELY let her know her fears are unfounded and that you want to and are going to reconcile with her and then let her know your boundaries and needs to make it work WITHOUT making it appear like blackmail. This is a golden opportunity to start the healing process and openess and honesty. Drop the detached fascade NOW! Start the movement to a better marriage!


----------



## Undertheradar

8yearscheating said:


> Your surprised because of all of the bickering and weird things she was saying before. It was a control issue with her regarding the EA. She DID begin to understand what she was doing wrong and was coming back to even if seemed like it was slow process. This is why I told you it was stronger return than you were reading and you needed to open the door and quit being remote. She is in fact ready to come back fully. Fast forward to this event. You haven't changed your detached mode of dealing with her. She sees something that she thinks is you straying. The OMG thoughts hit her along with jealousy and fear your going away.
> 
> DO NOT PLAY WITH THIS. As enticing as it may be to get her back, don't do it. Feel good about it. Revel in the love she's showing even if it's a twisted way. IMMEDIATELY let her know her fears are unfounded and that you want to and are going to reconcile with her and then let her know your boundaries and needs to make it work WITHOUT making it appear like blackmail. This is a golden opportunity to start the healing process and openess and honesty. Drop the detached fascade NOW! Start the movement to a better marriage!


This is interesting, and I'm very cautious with her. I can only relay so much of her personality here on TAM.

My past experiences with her, weren't always so cut and dry. If she showed any form of jealousy, it would usually result in her "paying me back" in some way.

So with that.... I bring you this morning's topic....

Last night, she commented about some woman replying to a lot of my FB status'. Knowing her, there was a good chance that she was preparing me to "see something" from her side. I got this impression from a comment she made that... " if I did that, you'd be upset", and "don't get mad, if it happens to me". 
As you can see, her jealousy turned a bit aggressive.

Sure enough, this morning some guy posted something with a heart on her FB page. It was a poll asking if she was a "date or dump" candidate. I do realize that these polls are usually FB generated, and not specific to that person. But anyone not knowing this, could easily assume he sent it to her.
I laughed it off, and told her it was "cute". I dismissed it totally.

Now.... to keep in line with what you're asking me to do...

When she went to work this morning, I thought she looked real nice. I was apprehensive about complimenting her, so I just told her to have a nice day.

HOWEVER, I too felt it was a good time to "open the door" a bit.
So I sent her a text a half hour later, telling her I thought she looked real nice today. I told her she looked sexy (she did)
She called me 10 minutes later, and asked... "do you think i looked sexy today"? 
I just told her (again) that I thought she looked sexy and beautiful today.

Then we both had to go.


----------



## magnoliagal

turnera said:


> Actually goes along with what we've been telling you - detach, and they will pursue. It's human nature. That's why they call it cake eating - they want YOU to want them, but they want someone else, too.


I'm leaning towards this. Here is another description. When people want something new they like to keep one hand on what is old. Less risky that way. They can test out the "new" while still having the "old" to go back to. Her attention is back on the old because she wasn't ready to give that up just yet and you forced her hand. Her attention is on you until that fear of losing you has passed.

Now what happens after that is still up for debate. Could go either way. She could get you back and decided yeah that's what she wants or she could get you back and decide that new is still better. Personally I think if you can keep your mojo she will ultimately choose you.


----------



## Jellybeans

magnoliagal said:


> I'm leaning towards this. Here is another description. When people want something new they like to keep one hand on what is old. Less risky that way. They can test out the "new" while still having the "old" to go back to.


This is exactly it. That's why most waywards waffle so much. The longer the person on the receiving end allows this, the worse off chances for reconciliation will be. Force them to get off the fence by saying you're not into being second best and if they can't get down with that & committ solely to you, then you're not waiting around for them. Kapiche.


----------



## Undertheradar

Jellybeans said:


> This is exactly it. That's why most waywards waffle so much. The longer the person on the receiving end allows this, the worse off chances for reconciliation will be. Force them to get off the fence by saying you're not into being second best and if they can't get down with that & committ solely to you, then you're not waiting around for them. Kapiche.


The problem here, is that there is NO WAY, I'm asking my wife to commit. I went down that road early on, and was greeted with "I don't know, I'm confused". 

The way I've been playing it...... (This conversation took place last week).....

I reminder her that I'm very much aware of how she feels about possibly leaving. I reminded her that I've ACCEPTED the inevitable breakup, and I support it 100%. I've offered her support to get more hours at work, and told her that as soon as I feel I've had enough of the "just here for the kids", we'll discuss going our own way.
I also told her that the ONLY way I would feel otherwise, is if she comes right out and says how she feels about working it out, and backs it up with actions.

I will NOT ask her for anything at this point.

If I have to guess, I think she's trying to put something back. Whether or not it's from the heart, we'll see.
I'll play nice. I'll show her that I can be a good husband and father. I won't play anymore 180 games, but my gut is telling me not to chase her. So I guess somewhere in between works.
I have a 10 day vacation booked for June 25th. I'll wait a few more days to let her know that I never cancelled it. If I feel that we're not on the same page before that, I would prefer to give it to someone that can enjoy it. I have a married 29 yr old daughter. I'm sure she'll be happy.

You have to ask yourself, and anyone else in my situation..... Not only do we want to wait for a WS to come around, but you have to consider that the husband has to look at his wife, knowing that she considered leaving... whether she did actually leave or not.
That's a horrible thing to live with.

And THAT is where I believe MC will come in.
My wife could have questioned her heart.
She also could have been in the fog over the EA.
She could have been angry that I put a gun to the guy's head.
Maybe she felt that the grass MIGHT be greener.

I will admit..... There were times, that my wife said or did things over the years, that made me wonder whether or not we should be together. So I guess if this plays out, she deserves a pass for acting on her feelings, as much as I got a pass for feeling it, but never acting on it.

Honesty goes both ways.


----------



## magnoliagal

Undertheradar said:


> You have to ask yourself, and anyone else in my situation..... Not only do we want to WS to come around, but you have to consider that the husband has to look at his wife, knowing that she considered leaving... whether she did actually leave or not.
> That's a horrible thing to live with.


Not necessarily. I've considered leaving on multiple occasions but it was really only because things were lacking in the marriage or I was messed up. It wasn't because I didn't love him because I did. This situation has the potential to bring you much closer together. 

On a side note your actions are speaking way louder than any words could ever say. You are doing just fine.


----------



## 8yearscheating

Can I suggest you go read my post on white rabbits thread about my history. Get honest with her. Tell her you are waiting for her to commit to R 1000%. Your playing games until you do and not being honest. Tit for tat.


----------



## Jellybeans

8yearscheating said:


> Can I suggest you go read my post on white rabbits thread about my history. Get honest with her. Tell her you are waiting for her to commit to R 1000%. Your playing games until you do and not being honest. Tit for tat.


I agree. If you can't have an honest conversation about her about where you both see this going, then you've got nothing. 

It sounds like she has realized she screwed up and wants to make it right with you.


----------



## turnera

Write out your list of your requirements in a spouse after said spouse has cheated. Give it to her. Walk away. 

When she's ready (if she gets to that point), she can prove to you that she is/will fulfill those requirements.


----------



## Undertheradar

Jellybeans said:


> I agree. If you can't have an honest conversation about her about where you both see this going, then you've got nothing.
> 
> It sounds like she has realized she screwed up and wants to make it right with you.


 I want to believe it, and I'll see where this goes. But you may be right.



turnera said:


> Write out your list of your requirements in a spouse after said spouse has cheated. Give it to her. Walk away.
> 
> When she's ready (if she gets to that point), she can prove to you that she is/will fulfill those requirements.


Potential problem here.... Spouse doesn't consider her actions cheating. Before I can present her with this, I would have to get her to a "happy place", where she's fully receptive to what I'm saying.
The last thing I want to do, is back her into a corner a again.
The best offense, could be a good defense.

I feel that if she realized her actions were in fact wrong, and she's commited to herself to come back home.... all I ask of her, is tp be the wife that I've grown to love, and look forward to seeing. I won't have to give her a list. That "list" was created in 15 years of marriage.
She knows the drill.
Maybe she fell off track.

As you can see, I'm trying to keep an open mind here.


----------



## magnoliagal

I think it's too soon for a list. You just got her to pursue you a little bit. I'd let it ride some before considering your next move. See how this plays out. I'm talking days maybe a week or so. No need to rush just yet. The ball is in her court so I'm curious what she does with it.

Now you under need to keep doing what you are doing. Detach but loving when the moment warrants it.


----------



## 8yearscheating

I disagree. Staying detached will cause her to feel like he's done and there's no point. List - not written - just boundaries and general expectations that are REQUIRED to R. THAT places the ball firmly in her court to make the next move a meaningful one for you. But do reassure her your ARE NOT STRAYING!!!!


----------



## 8yearscheating

Yet....


----------



## Undertheradar

8yearscheating said:


> I disagree. Staying detached will cause her to feel like he's done and there's no point. List - not written - just boundaries and general expectations that are REQUIRED to R. THAT places the ball firmly in her court to make the next move a meaningful one for you. But do reassure her your ARE NOT STRAYING!!!!


I have to disagree.... Listen to your message........

Wifey can have an EA, ask to leave marriage. Turn stone cold, and go into a fog for 4 months. Verbally and mentally abuse the spouse at any given moment. Threaten the spouse with divorce, and indicate that they've been thinking about this for a while.....
Husband finally gets it, and backs off....
Wife blows dog whistle, and hubby come running back.

Not good. 

As I said, I will show love. I will NOT show resentment, nor will I seek punsihment. But I CANNOT send the message that it would take me one day of niceness to dismiss 4 months of abuse, and hurt.

There are some members here, that are very much aware how hurt I was by my wife's actions. 
She said she was DONE, ... And convincing me to do the same.

Not enough time has passed. 

As far as I'm concerned, we're dating again..... And that's how I intend to treat it.

I'm getting theater tickets for a Broadway show next week, and dinner in Little italy Manhattan, and a babysitter.
I want to start from scratch, and see if she has it or not.


----------



## 8yearscheating

Your call - just hope she doesn't head the otherway while your waiting for her to get on her knees and beg forgiveness.


----------



## Undertheradar

8yearscheating said:


> Your call - just hope she doesn't head the otherway while your waiting for her to get on her knees and beg forgiveness.


She DID head the other way, and the begging never worked. 

I need to hold my ground as a man, like I always have been. I've never dealt with a cheating spouse in my entire life. This was a learning experience for me, and I had no idea how to handle it.

What I did learn.....

If they want out.... don't let the door hit them on the Ass on the way out!
OTOH, if I want to save my marriage and forgive my wife for attempting to destroy it, I don't have to chase her to do this.

If I were to meet a new woman tomorrow, I would treat her no different than I intend to treat my wife. I wouldn't chase her either. I would court her, and let her feelings flow naturally.
My wife was GONE, emotionally and she indicated that if she were able to financially support herself, she would have been gone sooner. It took me 4 months to get it, but I finally got it.

I intend to go slow.

It's either there, or it's not.


----------



## 8yearscheating

I agree begging doesn't work. Set your boundaries and stick to them.


----------



## Undertheradar

8yearscheating said:


> I agree begging doesn't work. Set your boundaries and stick to them.


My actions are my boundaries. I won't tell her what to do. If she doesn't have a natural desire to please her man, then I shouldn't have to make a list of needs for her to follow.

I've gotten to know many of the women here on TAM, and I'll tell you that there are some women here that love to please their man.
Man can earn that respect, but shouldn't have to make a list of demands for it.


----------



## Trenton

Undertheradar said:


> My actions are my boundaries. I won't tell her what to do. If she doesn't have a natural desire to please her man, then I shouldn't have to make a list of needs for her to follow.
> 
> I've gotten to know many of the women here on TAM, and I'll tell you that there are some women here that love to please their man.
> Man can earn that respect, but shouldn't have to make a list of demands for it.


Dude the women on here can say whatever the hell they want...don't fall into the same trap your wife did...


----------



## Undertheradar

Trenton said:


> Dude the women on here can say whatever the hell they want...don't fall into the same trap your wife did...


What does that mean? That women don't like to please their man?
Are you saying that they're lying?

My own sister treats her husband with respect, and doesn everthing she can to make his life easy. Her husband does the same in return.

As far as a trap goes.... My wife made the trap. She pursued the prey.


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## 8yearscheating

Yes she did, move on now.


----------



## Trenton

Undertheradar said:


> What does that mean? That women don't like to please their man?
> Are you saying that they're lying?
> 
> My own sister treats her husband with respect, and doesn everthing she can to make his life easy. Her husband does the same in return.
> 
> As far as a trap goes.... My wife made the trap. She pursued the prey.


What I intended to say was that you're comparing apples to oranges. If you love your wife, you should work it out with your wife. Not read stories on the internet of women who love to slurp cum and believe the grass is greener so you might be willing to walk over to that grass.

You make your wife out to be such a villain but I don't see it that way from what I've read.


----------



## Undertheradar

Trenton said:


> What I intended to say was that you're comparing apples to oranges. If you love your wife, you should work it out with your wife. Not read stories on the internet of women who love to slurp cum and believe the grass is greener so you might be willing to walk over to that grass.
> 
> You make your wife out to be such a villain but I don't see it that way from what I've read.


Whoa! Nobody wants slurp! LOL..

I don't want to make my wife out to be a villian, but at the same time, I don't want to paint a rosey picture for a person, that had an EA, and was willing to leave her husband, and at one piont offered to leave the children with me.

I'm not angry anymore. I'm actually quite happy that she's being nice. But "nice" is too easy to fake.

There are some folks here that believe actions speak louder than words, and they're right.

FWIW..... I'm not angry at my wife. I just ordered a bucket of nuclear hot wings, and a 6 pack of coronas. We have plans to eat like pigs, and have a few cold beers.... Just like when people date 

I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt, that perhaps our marriage got stale. Going back to basics, may not be the worst thing. After all, isn't it smart to go back to doing the things that made two people desire each other in the first place?

I guess everyone's missing my point....
I don't believe her WORDS. I want to see her show respect. That's all I want. I'll do the rest.


----------



## turnera

Undertheradar said:


> Potential problem here.... Spouse doesn't consider her actions cheating. Before I can present her with this, I would have to get her to a "happy place", where she's fully receptive to what I'm saying.
> The last thing I want to do, is back her into a corner a again.
> The best offense, could be a good defense.


I think this is the complete wrong attitude to take. You don't have to 'get' her anywhere. You have to know what YOU want, inform her of it, and wander off on your own and let her decide if she'll fight for you.


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> I think this is the complete wrong attitude to take. You don't have to 'get' her anywhere. You have to know what YOU want, inform her of it, and wander off on your own and let her decide if she'll fight for you.


I want to agree with you. However, she's not receptive to talking about anything.
She's playing this whole thing, as if nothing happened, so why discuss it.
She just wants to move on.

Very frustrating for me, but understand what you'r saying.


----------



## 8yearscheating

That is preciselythe problem. You know what you need. You THINK she should and your on opposite ends of the world. Sate what you need, she can't read your mind.


----------



## Undertheradar

8yearscheating said:


> That is preciselythe problem. You know what you need. You THINK she should and your on opposite ends of the world. Sate what you need, she can't read your mind.


Yes, I agree. HOWEVER ( you knew that was coming )... This is NOT the type of woman that's receptive to MY needs. She lives the "every person for themselves" rule.
If I told her "I need this, and I want that", it would fall on deaf ears.
I know I make her sound awful. She could be the kindest, most fun loving person I've ever known, but she's stubborn and selfish, when it comes to giving to my needs. She's developed this liberated attitude, and it stinks.

And since she got her job, she's even worse. Now her attitude is " I don't need anything from you, so don't expect anything from me"

Sorry.... I know it's not what you want to hear, but it does currently represent the state of the affairs.


----------



## magnoliagal

Oh how I know that liberated attitude all to well. It's I don't "need" a man so why should I do anything for him. You are in a tough spot for sure. At the moment though she does kinda need you because she doesn't make enough money to support herself. Right? And she needs you to watch the kids while she works.

So in a way she does need you but she's trying to convince you otherwise. Don't buy it.


----------



## Undertheradar

Just for the "fun" of it.....

Here's something from last night. 

I come home from work in a great mood. My kids are running around outside with their friends. I pull up to the house, and they drop what they're doing to ome say hello to me.
On the way home, I decide to pick up a bottle of Stoli Vodka, and I intended to make a few summer drinks with the neighbors, and enjoy the beautiful night.

My wife is sitting in front of our house ( by herself), and I approach her and say hello. She didn't come off as wanting to kiss me hello ( as we always have before), so I put a humorous spin on it. I filp a coin, and say "heads you have to kiss me hello, tails, I'll let you off the hook" . Sure enough, I get tails, and I said, Oh well.
The biatch, says "I didn't feel like kissing you anyway".
The night passed, and that was that.

Maybe I'm a hopeless romantic, but IMO, the proper thing to do in a case like that, would have to kiss your spouse hello, regardless.
If anything, it's just a small sample reminder of how my wife is acting.

Ask me if I'll try to kiss her hello again.


----------



## magnoliagal

Okay Under why didn't you say "heads you have to kiss me hello, tails I have to kiss YOU hello". Make it win/win.

You made it impossible for her to approach you. Women aren't programmed to do that unless they feel it's safe.


----------



## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> Okay Under why didn't you say "heads you have to kiss me hello, tails I have to kiss YOU hello". Make it win/win.
> 
> You made it impossible for her to approach you. Women aren't programmed to do that unless they feel it's safe.


Fair enough.....

I went to kiss her hello, and I almost got the impression that she pulled away, and was repulsed at the idea.
Rather than get defensive, or feel insulted, I chose to play a game, and give her an out.... She took it.

I was in a good mood, and just felt like goofing around. I didn't give it much thought.

FWIW..... my "Old wife" (pre EA) would have jumped my bones if I even attempted to not kiss her hello.
So there are definite issues here.


----------



## 8yearscheating

You missed the key point. "SAFE HAVEN" You doesn't think you want her so she's defensive. On your other post, if she's so stubborn she won't talk about your needs or respect what you need, how do ever expect this to be resolved? If you two can't talk and compromise and be honest, you may as well get divorced now.


----------



## magnoliagal

She thought YOU wanted the out. So she pretended she wanted it too by saying she didn't want to kiss you either. You could have come back and said 2 out of 3 with a smurk.


----------



## Undertheradar

8yearscheating said:


> You missed the key point. "SAFE HAVEN" You doesn't think you want her so she's defensive. On your other post, if she's so stubborn she won't talk about your needs or respect what you need, how do ever expect this to be resolved? * If you two can't talk and compromise and be honest, you may as well get divorced now.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Kinda been the problem, ya think? :scratchhead:
> 
> My wife is in and out of a very strange place. I've never seen her like this. It's a combination of being nice, like in friends, but not being a "spouse".
> 
> I honestly don't know how to act, and I don't want to act. I want to be myself, but I'm having a hard time doing it, because she throws "flies in the ointment.


----------



## Undertheradar

WhiteRabbit said:


> gosh it's so hard not to get discouraged reading about what you're doing wrong at every turn isn't it Under?
> 
> *As a WOMAN...I think if I were sitting there alone and my husband came walking up,noticed I wasn't in a receptive mood and decided to be flirty to cheer me up...did the sweet coin flip I would have kissed him regardless of heads or tails outcome. UNLESS i didn't want anything to do with him...then I just would have smiled and let it go if he got tails*.I can't understand the need for the hurtful comment, "i didn't feel like kissing you anyway." WTF is that?!
> 
> She has some real demons floating around in her head to say something hurtful like that. *I* liked your simple way of trying to break the ice off her arse...I'm just sorry it didn't work out.
> 
> I don't get where she viewed it as he didn't wnt to really kiss her...he has been chasing her crazy arse around for 4 months trying to get her to love him...WHY would she have the idea planted in her head that he didn't really want to kiss her?


I guess we're on the same page with this one. There was no need for the hurtful comments, or to take the heads or tails game serious.
It SHOULD have a win / win regardless.

Live and learn, just another day in paradise.

I must be missing something.


----------



## Deejo

Stop.

Seriously.

She isn't waffling on whether or not she WANTS you.

She is waffling over whether or not she is willing to TOLERATE you in order to avoid the bigger discomfort of actually moving her ass out.

Don't do this to yourself.


----------



## magnoliagal

Deejo said:


> Stop.
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> She isn't waffling on whether or not she WANTS you.
> 
> She is waffling over whether or not she is willing to TOLERATE you in order to avoid the bigger discomfort of actually moving her ass out.
> 
> Don't do this to yourself.


Reading this sent chills down my spine. It's dead on accurate.

The million dollar question now is he how does he handle it?


----------



## Undertheradar

Deejo said:


> Stop.
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> She isn't waffling on whether or not she WANTS you.
> 
> She is waffling over whether or not she is willing to TOLERATE you in order to avoid the bigger discomfort of actually moving her ass out.
> 
> Don't do this to yourself.


I hate to admit this, but I have to agree. I know this.
You can read my posts going back as long as you want, and you'll see that she kept her true feelings no secret.

That's why, as soon as I make it seem as if I'm letting go, she tugs back. Then I'm tolerable.

She needs a hard reality check. I know this. 
My patience will run thin, and I'll eventually just stop whatever I'm doing.
I feel it's just a matter of time, before I'm gone.
I'm honestly just trying to hold on to my family, and I'm hoping that it was just a "fog". I'm starting to see things differently.

There is no one else, but there isn't me either.

*** For the record.... Reading my posts, one could easily assume that I'm up her arse all day. This is not the case.

I wake up in the morning, and have a cup of coffee. I see her for all of a half hour.

She calls me on her afternoon break, and sounds as if everything is OK. I speak to her for no more than 2 minutes, to discuss the children's schedule.

I come home at night, our interaction is minimal at best.

I relay as much info here on TAM, but believe me, I talk to myself. more than I talk to her.


----------



## Deejo

My point is ... stop trying to connect with this woman. At all.

_It's what she expects YOU to do in order to 'fix' it._

She has no intention of actually doing a Goddamn thing. Though she will tell you otherwise.

She isn't going to meet you in the middle. She's waiting to see if you will come to her ... on her terms ... to satisfy her needs.

You don't count. Your needs don't matter. Not to her. Not now. Maybe not ever.

Believe me, I KNOW you want to keep your family together. There is a very good reason why my read is 'scarily accurate'.

This woman is never going to be the wife to you that you want. Recognize that, and make your decisions from there. She is operating the same way. She has no interest in trying to please you. What she wants to know is how far you are going to go in your efforts to please her. She doesn't truly believe that you are prepared to give her up ... or fight her on getting out.

If the 'game' you are playing isn't costing you anything emotionally, then play as long as you like. But I don't think that's the case.


----------



## Undertheradar

Deejo said:


> My point is ... stop trying to connect with this woman. At all.
> 
> _It's what she expects YOU to do in order to 'fix' it._
> 
> She has no intention of actually doing a Goddamn thing. Though she will tell you otherwise.
> 
> She isn't going to meet you in the middle. She's waiting to see if you will come to her ... on her terms ... to satisfy her needs.
> 
> You don't count. Your needs don't matter. Not to her. Not now. Maybe not ever.
> 
> Believe me, I KNOW you want to keep your family together. There is a very good reason why my read is 'scarily accurate'.
> 
> This woman is never going to be the wife to you that you want. Recognize that, and make your decisions from there. She is operating the same way. She has no interest in trying to please you. What she wants to know is how far you are going to go in your efforts to please her. She doesn't truly believe that you are prepared to give her up ... or fight her on getting out.
> 
> If the 'game' you are playing isn't costing you anything emotionally, then play as long as you like. But I don't think that's the case.


Yes, I hate to think you're right but you are. 

I get confused, when I think she's coming out of her fog. I tend to think she's coming around, and getting pasther issues.

I want to confront her. I want to somehow get into this woman's mind. I want to know if it is her intention to work through this, or is she playing me for a fool.

She's acting so sweet, but yet, non commital. I see it, I feel it.

You're right.

If I back off, she chases me. But not for the right reasons.

I truly wish I could get the courage to just walk away. I don't have the heart to walk out. At 52 years old, I never expected to go through this. My kids will be devastated, and I'm not sure how I'll react to starting over.
Honestly, I'm scared sh*t about this whole thing. I wish something good would happen.
I'm getting sick over this.


----------



## magnoliagal

Deejo wow just wow. You are so right though on all counts.


----------



## troy

Undertheradar said:


> I truly wish I could get the courage to just walk away. I don't have the heart to walk out. At 52 years old, I never expected to go through this. My kids will be devastated, and I'm not sure how I'll react to starting over.
> Honestly, I'm scared sh*t about this whole thing. I wish something good would happen.
> I'm getting sick over this.


That is exactly how I feel as I am writing this reply- except I'm 49.....

I've suffered a long time and I feel its time to end my suffering. It will be soon. I started a thread already so I wont hijack..

Take care my friend. Deejo has an amazing insight. I have been following your saga from your 1st post, and I never though your wife felt that way until Deejo's last post. Quite an eye opener....


----------



## Undertheradar

Taking Dejjo lead, I decided to lay the cards on the table tonight. I came home, and could just sense that she's being a two face. 
If I didn't know better, I'd swear this woman was cheating. She has all the looks of a person disengaged, and thinking about being elswhere. I can just feel it.

I was unusually quite, and she asked what was wrong. I told her I would speak to her after dinner.
Afterwards, we went in the living-room, and I told her I didn't like what was going on. I told her I felt she wasn't being sincere, and she was making an ass out of me. She didn't say two words. She just stared at me. I told her, if she wasn't ready to start treating her marriage as a marriage, then maybe she should take herself up on her own offer to be on her own.
I was honest in my words, when i told her that she was worried about hurting me, and the longer she plays this game, the more it's going to hurt. I told her i would rather put the cards on the table, and go from there.
She rolled her eyes, walked away, and said "I don't want to talk about it".
How do you respond to that? Please someone tell me how! 

I told her it's crap like that, that makes me sick to my stomach.
At that point, I was starting to boil over. I told her (again), that I'm not waiting anymore for her to decide when she can afford to be on her own. I told her I have no intentions on watching her stay here for the wrong reasons, i told her I was on to her phony niceness, and it's not fooling me.

her answer: "I don't like ultimatums' I reminded her that the "ultimatum" was made when we got married. She's either gonna honor it 100%, or we talk about ending it together. I told her this half married life was driving me crazy.
She had a cold attitude, didn't engage, and just walked away, without a blink.... Again saying :"I don't want to talk about it".

Why am I living in such denial?


----------



## turnera

Undertheradar said:


> I want to agree with you. However, she's not receptive to talking about anything.
> She's playing this whole thing, as if nothing happened, so why discuss it.
> She just wants to move on.
> 
> Very frustrating for me, but understand what you'r saying.


 You can show her through your actions. YOU don't accept a dishonest wife. Period. You have better things to do with your life.


----------



## turnera

Undertheradar said:


> If I back off, she chases me. But not for the right reasons.
> 
> I truly wish I could get the courage to just walk away. I don't have the heart to walk out. At 52 years old, I never expected to go through this. My kids will be devastated, and I'm not sure how I'll react to starting over.
> Honestly, I'm scared sh*t about this whole thing. I wish something good would happen.
> I'm getting sick over this.


Very understandable. Most BS's go through this. But your actions right now have the most affect on your future. KNOW what you'll accept in ANY wife and SHOW that to her. 

You WILL survive - over half of all married men end up in your shoes and DO survive. DO start over. DO learn from their misguided ex-spouses (if it comes to that) and choose better in the future. 

The one thing I've seen over and over with BS's is that, if they DO divorce and once the dust is settled and they do get out and date again...it's fun! They all say they can't believe how good it feels to actually spend time with someone who's actually interested in them, compliments them, and doesn't treat them like crap.


----------



## turnera

Start packing up her stuff this weekend. Get a bunch of boxes, tape them together, and start going through the rooms and boxing it up. When she blows up at you - and she will - tell her YOU are deciding to not be married any more. Move the boxes to the garage. Leave her a suitcase full of stuff. See what happens. See how she likes THAT ultimatum.


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Very understandable. Most BS's go through this. But your actions right now have the most affect on your future. KNOW what you'll accept in ANY wife and SHOW that to her.
> 
> You WILL survive - over half of all married men end up in your shoes and DO survive. DO start over. DO learn from their misguided ex-spouses (if it comes to that) and choose better in the future.
> 
> The one thing I've seen over and over with BS's is that, if they DO divorce and once the dust is settled and they do get out and date again...it's fun! They all say they can't believe how good it feels to actually spend time with someone who's actually interested in them, compliments them, and doesn't treat them like crap.


Turnera....
Allow me to tell you something about myself....

I hold third degree black belt in martial arts. Many years ago, I was a kick boxing champion, and martial arts exhibitionist. For the most part, I've always been a "rock"

Today, for the first time, I have to admit that I have a tear in my eye as I write this. I'm starting to break from all this. I can feel it. I feel so helpless, and lost. I really don't know which way to turn.
I'm here at TAM, because I need to be. I need to talk to others right now, and I appreciate all the support.
I know the truth about my wife's feelings, and I keep waiting for to retract her words about ending our marriage...but it's not happening.
I hate the lies, and lack of respect to me as a person. I don't want to be mean, I don't want to play games. All I want is normal, heart felt smile. Nothing else.


When I told she was faking her marriage, the answer I got was "I kissed you hello tonight, didn't I"?
gee, f*ckin' thanks. What a sport.


----------



## turnera

{{{UR}}}

You can still be the rock by showing her what a man with dignity does.


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> {{{UR}}}
> 
> You can still be the rock by showing her what a man with dignity does.


It's my dignity that's keeping me here. That's the problem. I can't hurt my kids. I know either way, they lose. If she leaves, my kids will follow. If I leave, .... I'll be lost.

I hate this. I want it to end. I really do.

BTW... What does {{{UR}}} mean?
Sorry. ;/


----------



## turnera

That's a virtual hug. 

Why do you know your kids follow her?


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> That's a virtual hug.
> 
> Why do you know your kids follow her?


It's just the way it is in NY. I don't stand a chance. My 17 year old step daughter told her she would go with her, and I don't want to separate the sisters either.
I don't stand a chance..


----------



## Deejo

Undertheradar ... read my post again.

That confrontation you just made? Again?

That's part of what you need to stop.

She knows this routine. And it's the routine you keep playing to. And you lose. Every. Single. Time.

You want her to engage ... and she doesn't, so you get angry. Then in response to your anger she already knows she has you because you have blown your cool. She's rope-a-doping you. And you're the blackbelt.

She isn't going to leave. Why the hell should she? She's the one in control. 

I'm telling you right now. Her plan is to wait you out ... knowing full well that you are going to snap long before she does.

You need to lose the anger. Quite frankly you need to lose the hope, and your desire and need to have your wife behave and respond in a manner that she simply isn't going to do.

People always talk about how much they hate playing games. It's all a game, whether you know the rules or not. It's simply easier for people to presume it isn't a game when both parties are playing for mutually beneficial outcomes. That is no longer the case in your circumstances. 

Your new set of rules? You don't have a wife. You don't. You have a recalcitrant room-mate. Meditate, work the bag, hit the weights, drink heavily ... do whatever it is you need to do to stop chasing the notion that she is going to 'see the light'. 

If she ever does 'see the light', it isn't going to be the result of what you do. It will be the result of what you don't do.

At this point, you have said everything that needs to said. Don't say it again. Find some calm and peace in your life that has nothing to do with your wife. Connect with your girls more ... without mom. Go see friends. Go camping. Do stuff ... for you.

Have you seen MEM's Emotional Thermostat thread? That is what you need to do. It is basically what I have been outlining. MEM does a great job of laying out EXACTLY the steps you should be taking. Give it a look.


----------



## Conrad

Undertheradar said:


> It's my dignity that's keeping me here. That's the problem. I can't hurt my kids. I know either way, they lose. If she leaves, my kids will follow. If I leave, .... I'll be lost.
> 
> I hate this. I want it to end. I really do.
> 
> BTW... What does {{{UR}}} mean?
> Sorry. ;/


No No No No No No

Your dignity is not keeping you there.

It's your doormat.


----------



## turnera

If you honestly have no hope of good custody of the kids, then you have one chance IMO of saving your marriage - either you leaving or her leaving.


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> If you honestly have no hope of good custody of the kids, then you have one chance IMO of saving your marriage - either you leaving or her leaving.



Yes, I known this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sammy3

UR, 
My heart breaks with each post I read. You are not alone, though I know that doesn't make your life any better. I could only imagine the hurt that an affair bring, but trying to get through it myself, I know it is crippling, to say the least . 

~ sammy


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> If you honestly have no hope of good custody of the kids, then you have one chance IMO of saving your marriage - either you leaving or her leaving.


Turnera,
My heart has been telling me this for quite some time. I know this. Unfortunately, I'm having a very hard time accepting it. Deejo is 100% right too. I also know that no matter how nice she may appear, it'll never be right.

Yesterday was a very difficult day for me. I feel as if something deep down has broken through, and a new emotion has taken over today.
I can't describe how I feel, but if I have to guess, I feel as if I've been defeated.

I need a timeout.


----------



## turnera

Timeouts can be great for a marriage. Show her what she's giving up. Do you have some place you can go for the weekend?


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Timeouts can be great for a marriage. Show her what she's giving up. Do you have some place you can go for the weekend?


I rented a summer house on the New Jersey Shore for the week of 6/25
She doesn't know about it. It was intended for a week getaway for the kids at the end of the school year.

I may just go spend the week there alone, and sit on the beach for 7 days.


----------



## troy

Great idea. I'm thinking about doing the same thing. I love to sit on the beach and watch the ocean and the waves. Its the one place where I feel at peace and all my worries seens to float away.


----------



## Undertheradar

UPDATE:

Thought I'd drop by for a quick update.

It's been about a week, and I basically went into "it is what it is" mode. For me, that's a good thing, because it'll allow me to deal with it much easier.

Well anyway... My last conversation with her was last week. She acted "biatchy" all day, and once again reminded me that she was there just for the kids. She went as far as telling me (again), that she no longer loved me. I said "OK that's fine, an I politely told her I wanted no part of it, and I would prefer that she just leave. I explained to her, that I deserve much more than that, and she's had enough time to either see that she wants her married life, or would prefer otherwise. I explained that I had no intention of staying in an "empty marriage".

I told her I would help her pack her bags. She refused to go, so I told her we should consider selling the house, and coming to an amicable arrangement. She rolled her eyes, and went to sleep.
I haven't spoken to her since.

Anyway, this morning I get a call from her, asking if I would lke to go before a counselor. She explained that it would allow us to have a better understanding of what's going on. I agreed, and told her that she would have to be proactive, and look for someone that she would be comfortable with. She agreed.
She also said she didn't mean what "she said". Of course, she wouldn't tell me what she was specifically talking about, but I guess she probably thought it hurt me, when she said she didn't love me.
I kinda "got the hint by now" anyway, so I was OK with it.

Honestly.... I'll roll with this, but I'm not sure how much effort I want to put into someone that no longer loves me. I'm seriously getting to a point where I feel as if I've given it my best, and I would prefer to separate and give our marriage a test. I work with a matrimonial attorney, and she agreed to draw a stipulation agreement, that would clearly indicate a mutual separation, without the implications of abandonment.

FWIW... The whole scene became tiring, and I simply lost interest. 

It is, what it is.

Also, FWIW...... I feel terrific. I'm no longer feeling sad or defeated. I feel that I've reached a point where I have to accept the things I cannot change, nor will I settle for the things I do not enjoy.
I convinced myself that's it's all not worth it, and I'll let the chips fall as they may.


----------



## sammy3

U-R, for you ... 

Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, 

Courage to change the things I can,

And wisdom to know the difference .

~sammy


----------



## Jellybeans

Ugh. SHe's acting like a child. 

"I dont love you and am only here for the kids yeah but let's go to counselling and I didn't mean what I said and let's draw up a mutual sep. agreement."

What in the f-ck? 

I would address all of this at MC if you go. She is yanking you around. And I don't like it.


----------



## Undertheradar

sammy3 said:


> U-R, for you ...
> 
> Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
> 
> Courage to change the things I can,
> 
> And wisdom to know the difference .
> 
> ~sammy


Yes, the serenity prayer.
It's on my desk 
I see it every day.


----------



## Undertheradar

Jellybeans said:


> Ugh. SHe's acting like a child.
> 
> "I dont love you and am only here for the kids yeah but let's go to counselling and I didn't mean what I said and let's draw up a mutual sep. agreement."
> 
> What in the f-ck?
> 
> I would address all of this at MC if you go. She is yanking you around. And I don't like it.


Hi Jellybeans.

Yep, she has been all along. I was taking it, and going with it for almost 4 months. It was hurting the crap out of me, and now I realize that I don't have to hurt anymore. I'm not getting myself nuts over this.

She's now grasping at straws. She wants the MC ONLY to justify herself to me. I know her like a book.
That's fine. 

Jellybeans...... I sense the frustration from you, and you can only imagine what I've been feeling.
She's acting lilke a spoiked brat, who's mad because "daddy" told her she can't go out to bars, and text her male co workers all day.

Oh well.


----------



## Jellybeans

I'm not frustrated but can totally understand how YOU would be. 

It's like someone tells you the sky is blue and you agree with them and then they tell you, No wait, it's red now. And no matter how much you agree or concede, they keep changing the answer.


----------



## Jellybeans

:rofl: WR


----------



## sammy3

Isn't amazing the very person we loved we also can hate so much?


----------



## Undertheradar

Last night's episode......

I come home from work, and do my evening disappearing act. About an hour later, I go relax in the den with my laptop, and do some reading.

Psycho comes into the room, and decides to sit on my lap and do a "laptop dance". She's laughing, and giggling, and hugging, and giving me little kisses all over my face. I decided to just sit there and not say a word. I decided not to play into what she was doing, nor did I want to give her an excuse for an argument, by rejecting her.
When she was done, I said "thanks for the "cheap thrill", smiled and then I "had something to do". .. and left.
Needless to say, I don't have an effin clue what just happened.

This morning, she asked if we could do a movie with the kids,and if I'd like to plan a day at the beach tomorrow. I told her I would check my schedule.
She called me twice from her job this morning, and wouldn't stop blabbing about nothing. 
This is not what's been going on the past three months or so. This is the way it used to be.

I do know this much...... All her text buddies, and co worker friends are pretty much gone. Her focus is more on her work, and not on her new friendships at work (as before).
I see a reduced amount of Facebook time, little to no texting basically at all.

Other than TELLING ME that she doesn't love me, and would like to get away, her actions are speaking otherwise. She seems quite normal at the moment.

This is crazy stuff.


----------



## sammy3

I think, she is scared as her reality may be setting in, or she isn't sure what she wants yet so she is playing it safe. Why the F***, do we have to play so many games with each other? The marriage cesspool just gets murky and murky. I wish you, fortitude, temperance,& paramita of equanimity. Be confident you will reach the shores of recovery, and peace...be willing to persevere.

Hang in there.

~sammy 


PS. I'm NEVER getting married again!


----------



## Undertheradar

sammy3 said:


> I think, she is scared as her reality may be setting in, or she isn't sure what she wants yet so she is playing it safe. Why the F***, do we have to play so many games with each other? The marriage cesspool just gets murky and murky. I wish you, fortitude, temperance,& paramita of equanimity. Be confident you will reach the shores of recovery, and peace...be willing to persevere.
> 
> Hang in there.
> 
> ~sammy
> 
> 
> *PS. I'm NEVER getting married again!*




LOL... Don't 

Yeah, she's playing games. 

The question is....... Which game is she playing?

Is she playing the "_I'll tell him I don't love him", even though I do game?_

Or is she playing the "_I'll make him think I'm happy" game, even though I'm not._

I believe that my wife truly questioned her heart. She got a taste of singlehood with her EA, and pictured herself with someone else. Even though she's here at the moment, I feel that it's just a matter of time before the bottom falls out. 

As far as I'm concerned, I'm at peace within myself. I've decided to accept my situation as just another statistic, and just go with it.
I'm prepared to end my marriage, if need be. She knows this.

My wife suggested we see a MC. I feel that 15 years warrants a few months of MC. I'll go along.
It may also be a good opportunity to reveal the motive behind her actions. I would cherish the chance to have both of us sit in front of a professional, and just ask the 60,000 dollar question : "what the heck is going on"? 
All I want is answers. If my wife wants out, then out is what I'll give her. If my wife resents me for something, then I'm entitled to know. If she had a affair, then put it on the table, and we go on from there.
So many unanswered questions.

LOL.... The hardest part is making it through a day with her.
If there was any truth to _*"she loves me, she loves me not", it's her.*_


----------



## turnera

Make sure the MC knows she had an EA.


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Make sure the MC knows she had an EA.


I actually just made the appointment with a local MC. She took the time to get an overview of my side of the story, and I told her about her "EA friend". I didn't want to draw conclusions, and I made it clear that I didn't contact her to take sides. Her first reaction to the 16,000 texts in three months, was that my wife needs to know that shouldn't have happened, regardless of the state of our marriage. I agreed, and made an appointment for Monday.
My wife doesn't know I made the appointment yet, I'm going regardless. I'm still in my office, but I'll tell her when I get home.
I need to understand what's going on here.
If she was serious about seeing a MC, now is her chance to prove it.


----------



## turnera

great move.


----------



## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> great move.


Not sure what's so great about it....
Just got back from the movies. In all fairness, I would have had a nicer time with a mannequin. 
She is just not into this relationship, and believe me, it shows. I suspect that she wants to go to MC, not to fix the problem, but to assist her in letting me down.
There is no way in hell, that this woman regenerates any sort of emotional connection to me. She is way out there.
If this were a first date, I'd never call her again.

I'll go along with the program, but I think you can put this marriage in the books as a fail.
I don't see how a marriage can survive without the connection.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I will only say in her defense that we all operate out of fear and insecurity, just about everything we do is of that. So, whatever it is that's going on in her head, SHE thinks she's right. It's always possible that, in the safety of therapy, she may break down and spill the beans.


----------



## Undertheradar

Update... 2 days later.

Since I've basically turned this thread into my personal diary, I thought I'd share the latest day of my "bizarro marriage".

Dear diary,

Yesterday, (as planned) , we spent family day at the beach. The weather was awesome, and the water and sand was picture perfect.

The day started with the same cold, distant feeling as the night before.
About two hours into the beach, my wife decided to sit next to me. As the day progressed, she became more and more affectionate, to the point where she was all over me by 9:00 last night. I went along, never bringing up anything.
THEN IT HAPPENED!!!!!!!!.......
She brought up her job, and HOW she acted like a total ASS!!!!!! She told me she no longer engages in any form of texting or clowning around, and decided to take her job more seriously, and not get caught up in the "scene". 
I asked what she meant, and she described getting caught up in the new friendships, and their interests, and how WRONG it was to hurt me as she has. I chose not to engage.
I took advantage of THAT moment to tell her that I made and appointment with a MC for Monday, and she should be prepared to discuss what she feels at that moment.
She agreed.

It's 7am Sunday morning, and she just woke up, and told me how much she enjoyed spending the weekend together.

***** Ill admit, it's very easy to get sucked right into this weekend, and forget anything that happened. But I'm choosing to keep my reservations, and my guard up.
The thing I keep hearing in my head, is how my wife told me she's been thinking about leaving me for quite some time. If that were the case, the EA happened long after she felt that she didn't want to be married.
Is this something to simply forgive and forget? I don't think so, but I'd like to hear how you feel I should approach this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

First, you already TOLD her this exact same thing, if I recall correctly. Yet you're still having problems. 

That said, your situation is not nearly as serious as some; I truly think she finally got out of the house, started being treated like an adult again, and FLEW with it. Since I assume you've been steadily working all along, you won't know what it's like to be cut off from adults for a period, and then suddenly be around 'your own kind' again. It's a very heady experience. Attention, encouragement, understanding, flirting even, admiration...all that stuff that you have been getting in teeny tiny pieces from all your work interactions, she suddenly felt it full force after a vacuum. So it felt GOOD. It's hard to resist that.

And then, when you push back, she has to ask herself, well, wait a minute. Is he going to make me go back to the doldrums? Is that all there is?

You can see how she might have started wondering what she really wanted. In a PEA-filled fantasy, it's very common to rewrite history to justify continuing to get fulfilled.

Your job, IMO, is to show her that she can continue to have that stuff and still be married. Your job is to keep your marriage fresh, so that YOU are the main person filling her Emotional Needs. So she doesn't have to go outside the marriage to get that high she was feeling with them. It seems like she's already on the way to realizing that.

Maybe today would be a good day to print out and fill out the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires.


----------



## Undertheradar

Tunera, I think you're right on the money about getting out of the house, etc....

What's changed the most, is the way that I'M HANDLING it. You guys have taught me something I never would have done on my own. I truly valued all the input, and have learned a lot about myself.
Please keep in mind, than much of her actions are falling on the heels of me pulling away. Is this a reaction to my actions? Could be. 

Here's what I've been doing....... I've been avoiding the "job talk" with her. This is apparently a sore spot of resentment, and usually opens old wounds. I've been going about my business more than usual, and paying special attention to avoiding hot topics. I'm living a normal life, and I sort of let her know that I'm OK with or without her. If I have to guess, I'd say that she MIGHT see that I'm done with whatever was going on. And to be honest, I am done. I don't want to talk about what happened. I was and am willing to walk away from my marriage, if my wife isn't into her marriage. 
As Sammy said, maybe she had a reality check.
Maybe her quiet evening at the movies the other night, was a way of her to gather her thoughts? Nobody really knows but her.

Today, I can honestly say that I feel very peaceful inside. I had a much needed stress-free weekend.

Right now, she's working. I would normally prepare dinner for the family, and wait until she gets home. Instead, I prepared our favorite tomato and basil sauce, and put it in the fridge for her. When she comes home, the meal will be a token of affection, but we won't be home. I'm taking the kids into the bike trails, then down to the shore for some more summer fun.
The extra time away could only help.

I feel that this experience has made me a better person too. I'm learning not to sweat anymore. A man losing his wife and family to divorce is one of the most frightening experiences for any man. I now feel that I an able to overcomenthe fear, and move on if need be. THAT has made me such a stronger person inside, and less prone to sweating the small stuff.

Please don't think that I'm in a euphoric state because my wife decided to be nice for a day. A lot was said, and the truth still has to be separated from fiction.
What about the " I don't love you anymore", or " being here just for the kids"? Do I just act as if that was never said?


This is very difficult...day to day. She can be as nice as she wants, but 4 months of convincing me that she's here fir the wrong reasons, holds more ground than two days of fun.
Girlfriends are so much easier.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3

U-R, print off all of the pages because you do have a journal here, it may be worth saving.

We've learned a lot from you too, your search for understanding, we all share the same questions, our details only different. 

Sadly,the soul searching, learning about yourself, your demons, and the things you do that don't serve your life are gifts from infidelity. We're all at crossroads within ourselves. 

~sammy


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## Undertheradar

sammy3 said:


> U-R, print off all of the pages because you do have a journal here, it may be worth saving.
> 
> We've learned a lot from you too, your search for understanding, we all share the same questions, our details only different.
> 
> Sadly,the soul searching, learning about yourself, your demons, and the things you do that don't serve your life are gifts from infidelity. We're all at crossroads within ourselves.
> 
> ~sammy


Sammy, I'm taking the time to create this journal for others, as much as myself. I've gone back and read my earlier posts, and yes, I've come a long way. However, I wish I knew then, what I know now. Things would not have gone this far.
As far as infidelity goes...... The best gift you can give yourself, is to be who you are, and hope that the person you're with sees and loves you for that person. The mistake that I made, and I see so many others make, is that we try to create a connection with someone that doesn't feel as we do. I will never do that again. 

Right now, my goal is to try to separate my wife's real world from her fantasy. When she gets back to real world, then we'll see if we have a marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3

Do you think you can fall in love with her again? Isn't that what we need to make it "work' all over again ? I mean the Epithumia, Eros,Storge, Phileo,and the Agape loves? How do we do we make it come back ? 

~sammy


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## Undertheradar

Sammy, I never stopped loving my wife. If I did stop, I wouldn't be searching for answers. OTOH, I don't LIKE my wife. Her actions have set me back, and hVe hurt me, and angered me. But isnt this part of a relaionship? No one said it would be perfect.

Now..... Does my wife love me? I think she "loves me", because I'm the father of our children, and we've been together a long time. I don't feel that she's in love with me. How many harsh words can be blamed on anger? 
Can she fall in love with me again? ..... Unfortunately, that question normally gets answered after people split up.
In my case, I feel that my wife has a narcissistic side of her. If that's the case, my wife is not capable of falling in love with me again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3

I realize you didn't fall out of love with your wife. That is a given. 

I think Ive stopped loving my husband, and am too searching for answers. That is what I am referring to, how can you call this love ? If this is the way we treat those we love, please let me be the enemy.

This is a miserable life for both of you. This whole cesspool is misery for each and everyone of us.... 

So my question again is, how, how do you start it all over again, because love needs these different style of love to endure. 

~sammy


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## Undertheradar

sammy3 said:


> I realize you didn't fall out of love with your wife. That is a given.
> 
> I think Ive stopped loving my husband, and am too searching for answers. That is what I am referring to, how can you call this love ? If this is the way we treat those we love, please let me be the enemy.
> 
> This is a miserable life for both of you. This whole cesspool is misery for each and everyone of us....
> 
> So my question again is, how, how do you start it all over again, because love needs these different style of love to endure.
> 
> ~sammy


Too many times, the love is masked by the selfishness. When people are on a "me" mission, there's nothing to stand in their way. I never went on a mission. I stayed home as a dedicated husband and father. I devoted my life to my wife and family. I had NO REASON to fall out of love with my wife. THEN she got a job. Her job turned her into a self centered, selfish monster. It was now HER world, instead of our world. Is that enough to fall out of love? Well.... I'm a lot more complex than that. I don't have a light switch to turn on and off. I came here to TAM, because I knew I needed to keep myself in one piece. I've heard everything from EA, PA, midlife crisis, and so on. So I guess, if I had a reason to fall out of love, I really didn't know which one. Your partner NOT LOVING you, is not a valid reason not to love someone. Of course, moving on, and eventually drifting away is the most sensible,a dn will result in losing the love.

I'll go on record saying that my wife does NOT love me in a way she should. I can see it in her eyes, and I can feel it in her actions. Could she be " going through something"? Maybe. 15 years is worth finding out.

I'm holding a firm stance that if she can't give 100%, we're done. Regardless of what niceness she throws at me. This has to be long term, and it will eventually play itself out.
We're scheduled for MC. Something will come out of this. What? I don't know..

I'll keep the journal going.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton

Undertheradar, we all have a narcissistic side to us. I think often we try to be as selfless as possible and then bust out with some selfishness because we lose our own wants/needs and are trying to reclaim them.

I'm wondering if you're falling for someone else or thinking that you, yourself, might be better off with someone else. I've read your writing to another nickname on this forum and thought to myself when reading it...that it was personal in an I Want To Know You More & You Excite Me Way. So I'm just bluntly asking. Even if you can't be honest with me, be honest with yourself.


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## Undertheradar

Trenton said:


> Undertheradar, we all have a narcissistic side to us. I think often we try to be as selfless as possible and then bust out with some selfishness because we lose our own wants/needs and are trying to reclaim them.
> 
> I'm wondering if you're falling for someone else or thinking that you, yourself, might be better off with someone else. I've read your writing to another nickname on this forum and thought to myself when reading it...*that it was personal in an I Want To Know You More & You Excite Me Way.* So I'm just bluntly asking. Even if you can't be honest with me, be honest with yourself.


LOL.... Absolutely not falling for someone else. I'm still trying to figure this one out.
What you may be sensing,is that I'm getting tired of the mind game, especially when it concerns matters of the heart.
I think I'm falling for myself again. I LIKE the new me. He's seeing things much clearer, and won't tolerate as much BS as previously.

I don't understand the "highlighted above"
Can you elaborate?


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## Undertheradar

UPDATE. MONDAY 6/27

Well.... After spending an absolutely wonderful weekend, she just had to throw the fly in the ointment.

Last night (after she gets home from work, of course) she has "That look" on her face. It's a look that I've seen whenever she has "something on her mind". Of course, it was time to kill the weekend, so I engaged.

I ask her if she had a nice weekend... she said she had a terrific weekend.
THEN she tells me she's trying REAL hard NOT to feel the way she feels. OK, writing back on the wall. Wife wants out, wife not happy.

Instead of questioniong her, I decided to play along.

I told her I understood she wasn't happy, and we're both trying to make the best of it.

THEN SHE FINALLY TELLS THE TRUTH!!!
She tells me that she hasn't been the same since the day I broke up her friendship with her co -worker. I knew this, but she would never admit it.
She said she lost her feelings for me THAT day, and she's trying to get them back. She then dragged every incident we may have had in the last 10 years, and used them as an excuse not to be happy.
I told her AGAIN, that maybe it's just time to move on. She again said she didn't want that.. She wants to get past what she feels.
I suggested that maybe she sim-ply didn't love me anymore, and was no longer attracted to me. I told her if she felt that way, I would accept it, and understand.
She said that wasn't the case.
She AGAIN said she didn't want to hurt me and the children. She said it's her obligation to stay togeher as a family, and she's willing to live together as "friends". She said she has NO DESIRE to be with, nor has she been with anyone else. She wants to live together, and she wants to function as a family.
If you ask me, everything would seem very normal, except her constant reminders that she lost her feelings for me.
If I have to read into last night, I got the strongest feeling that she's lashing out, and full of resentment.
I'm not upset, nor am I going to react to her comments.

I told her that her desire to be friends won't work, and we'll ultimately split up. Se said she didn't want that.

I asked her why she wanted to go to counseling....
She said she didn't know why.

I asked her why she comes over to me, sits on my lap and hugs and kisses me.
She said she just wanted me to feel better about things.

This isn't rocket science. She is obviously wanting to be out, but doesn't know how to do it. She's afraid that she'll regret her decision.
She told me that she loves me 10 times last night.

I ended the conversation by telling her it may be time to test her heart. I told her a mutual separation might me required to bring her feelings to the surface.

I told her she has very little time to "get over it", because I'm very close to packing it in.
IMO, I intend to go to the MC, and see if a separation is the right thing to do.


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## turnera

Good luck!

It makes me wonder, actually, what that really means, when she says the minute you 'made' her break up her friendship is when she stopped loving you. Seems pretty juvenile, actually. But there's probably more behind it, maybe things like shame, having to admit to her 'friends' that you rule the roost, or maybe even not getting to be on her own as a 20-something. I'd focus on that in MC, if I were you.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Good luck!
> 
> It makes me wonder, actually, what that really means, when she says the minute you 'made' her break up her friendship is when she stopped loving you. Seems pretty juvenile, actually. But there's probably more behind it, maybe things like shame, having to admit to her 'friends' that you rule the roost, or maybe even not getting to be on her own as a 20-something. I'd focus on that in MC, if I were you.


All of the above.
She is acting juvenile. She's acting like a pouty little brat, that couldn't get her way.


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## mayatatia

That sounds all to familiar. Sounds like my husband. He also said if he leaves, can he come over for "booty calls". I told him, he couldn't afford my price!.... lol Cause that's how he made me feel. I am not an object! He is the only man I have ever been intimate with, and to lower me with that comment, is not acceptable.


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## Undertheradar

UPDATE (for the heck of it) 

OK, just spent a nice 4 day weekend doing beach, BBQ, booze, and partying.

For the most part, everything seemed somewhat normal. We spent every minute together, and we were civil. 
There was ONE incident that warrants honorable mention:

Saturday afternoon, we ended up over a friend's backyard BBQ. There must have been about 10 of us sitting around a table, and the topic of insecurity came up, and my wife turned to me, and singled me out as insecure.
I decided to drag the issue right into the conversation, and struck back with " How many men here would tolerate an EA", and NOT be insecure?
Of course everyone was curious, so I opened fire!!!
I described the late night texts, and described the whole story. She told her part that he was just a "gay friend" (who never actually said he was gay).
Needless to say, it took THAT liitle round table to open her eyes. The WHOLE table (men and women) said she was nuts, and lucky that I didn't kill the guy. The men said I was too easy on my wife, and they would have thrown their wifes out, with their phones.
The wive's laughed it off, and said that they would have murdered their husbands.
My wife tried her best to justify, but it wasn't happening. The whole table told her she had no right doing what she did!!!

The subject never came up again, and we enjoyed the rest of the weekend.

Even though we had a nice weekend, I can't stop thinking that my wife wanted to leave me, and said she'd thought about it for quite some time. I still can't get past the "let's stay together for the kids" conversation we had a couple weeks ago.

This is extremely difficult, and every time I look at my wife, I wonder what she's thinking.

It's a horrible feeling inside. I don't wish this on anyone.
I'll go one day at a time.


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## Deejo

Well played, Sir.

*THAT* is defending a boundary.

She tried to call you out and belittle you ... and expected you to just suck it up.

You handled it really well. Odds are the way it played, and the subsequent response was not at all what she was expecting.


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## turnera

I am REALLY proud of you for doing that! And, WOW, I cannot imagine a better way for her to have it brought home, what she did.


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## Undertheradar

Well.... I really didn't think it would play out so well, but it did. Yesterday, she called fom work, and asked if I was up to spending a quiet afternoon on the beach. I left early, picked her and the kiddies up, and spent the afternoon on the beach. We had loads of snacks, and laughter was plentiful. It was the first day where I felt I had my wife back. 
Then this morning, I wake up to a nice breakfast. That was also something I haven't seen in a while.
Over breakfast, she mentioned the "saturday round table" LOL....
I played it real low, and didn't want her to think I reeled her into it. She said that she REALIZED that this situation could have been a lot worse, and she's very GRATEFUL that I didn't take it any further. I chose NOT to engage, and let her have her moment. She told me she wants to be my wife again!!! I've been waiting t hear those words for 4+ months. I asked her where she wanted to begin, and she mentioned a nice home cooked meal tonight, and some "quiet adult time" tonight.

FWIW.... She said that my perseverance impressed her.
I told her I put the axe away four times 

If she could stay on track, I think we could be on our way to recovery.


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## magnoliagal

Awesome news! I'm so happy for you!


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## jayde

Under . . . this is terrific. It's really good that she acknowledge your perserverance. You're a great man to have made this journey and not retaliate when she offered the olive branch. Sounds like you both have turned a corner on things in a positive way! All the best!


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## troy

You two can make it happen. And this experience will make your marriage even better than it has ever been. I'm jealous... Wish my wife would say those words to me too...
Good luck..


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## Undertheradar

troy said:


> You two can make it happen. And this experience will make your marriage even better than it has ever been. I'm jealous... Wish my wife would say those words to me too...
> Good luck..


I don't want to be the fly in the ointment, but I still feel as if I need to be cautious. My wife had some deep rooted feelings about us, and many of them were not good.
Now today may just be a good day, so I'm not taking it for granted. I will continue to "keep a little space", but always let her know that my best interest is her. However, as I stated earlier, it's too early to raise the victory flag.

I'm still going day by day.
But I do agree that she may have turned a corner.


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## Deejo

You DO need to be cautious. But you also need to be open.

She is currently operating under "Fake it, til you make it."

Simply keep your perspective. She is trying. You should try too.

Keep your emotions in check. You shouldn't go "all in" just yet, but you do need to demonstrate some acceptance and reciprocity. Your restrained behavior and NOT trying to talk it out to decide where it's headed is paying off in spades.

She needs to keep working until her investment in her marriage ... and YOU, isn't just for show.


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## Conrad

Deejo said:


> Well played, Sir.
> 
> *THAT* is defending a boundary.
> 
> She tried to call you out and belittle you ... and expected you to just suck it up.
> 
> You handled it really well. Odds are the way it played, and the subsequent response was not at all what she was expecting.


Gentlemen who happen to be reading this:

UndertheRadar has started passing fitness tests.

Watch out ABOVE!


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## Undertheradar

Deejo said:


> You DO need to be cautious. But you also need to be open.
> 
> She is currently operating under *"Fake it, til you make it."*
> 
> Simply keep your perspective. She is trying. You should try too.
> 
> Keep your emotions in check. You shouldn't go "all in" just yet, but you do need to demonstrate some acceptance and reciprocity. Your restrained behavior and NOT trying to talk it out to decide where it's headed is paying off in spades.
> 
> She needs to keep working until her investment in her marriage ... and YOU, isn't just for show.


Yes, I believe you're on the money here. This is something I've been sensing, but not knowing how to deal with. I chose to back off, and let the chips fall as they may. The EA thing is gone, the resentment over my intervention might be loosening up a bit.

She just called a short while ago, and suggested that she wants to leave her job. IMO, this is also part of her closure from what originally took place at her job. 
Since she's been a SAHM for 15 years, she asked if I would be OK if she quit, and learned something new. She wants to get into medical billing, I told her she could do whatever her heart desires. She wants to attend a local class.
Two ways to look at this....

1) During our crisis, If we split up, one of her concerns was her inability to support herself working at Walgreens. Leaving her job could be part of her exit plan, and making more money could be the motivator.

2) Working at Walgreens was her first job since having children. Maybe she simply feels that she could do better,and I'm reading too much into it.
She asked if I would go with her, and make sure the school seemed legitimate. I agreed.

FWIW.... She also mentioned picking up some "body lotion" for our "adult time" tonight. uh-oh. 
Hmmm.... She's got me wondering what I'm in for.


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## Undertheradar

Conrad said:


> Gentlemen who happen to be reading this:
> 
> UndertheRadar has started passing fitness tests.
> 
> Watch out ABOVE!




Conrad,
Where can I read more about this "fitness test"? 
I don't have a clue what I did, but would like to learn more about it.

Thanks


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## turnera

Awesome update!



Undertheradar said:


> She said that my perseverance impressed her.


I've heard it said many times, from former waywards, that they were glad their faithful spouse was hard on them, held their feet to the fire, and demanded respect. They were grateful their BSs protected them from themselves.


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## turnera

Re her new career: One, you can't just force her to stay home to remove temptation. That's no marriage anyway. Two, you WILL be attending marriage counseling, right? You can work on those issues with a professional. Three, if heaven forbid you two decide it won't work out, her working a real job means less required of you and better quality of life for your kids.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Re her new career: One, you can't just force her to stay home to remove temptation. That's no marriage anyway. Two, you WILL be attending marriage counseling, right? You can work on those issues with a professional. Three, if heaven forbid you two decide it won't work out, her working a real job means less required of you and better quality of life for your kids.


I agree 100%. I would never force her to stay home to remove temptation. If something's gonna happen, it really doesn't matter where she is.
I feel that her removal from her CURRENT job, is removing her from her EA ( he works there), and I suspect it might be a step in the right direction for HER. This was her suggestion, not mine.

And also regarding the REAL job, yes I agree 100%. I encourage her to do better for herself. Not so much to relieve the burden off me, but to offer herself a better life, and more independence for herself.

Yes, we do intend to attend counseling. We're going to interview someone next week. (we're both home from work).


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Awesome update!
> 
> 
> I've heard it said many times, from former waywards, that they were glad their faithful spouse was hard on them, held their feet to the fire, and demanded respect. They were grateful their BSs protected them from themselves.


I have a close friend. He's 44. His wife is 30. She was a SAHM, and got a job at Toys R Us. Make a long story short, she left him for this guy at work.

Brief history. They always seemed happy. He too, is a kick boxing champ, with a gold belt to prove it. He was highly ranked, and easily could have mangled the guy that stole his wife. Instead, he chose to let her go.
My friend is a very handsome guy, and he's built like most men wish they were, yet she strayed.

And YES, he was devastated by this.

Ahead one year later, she shows up at his door, crying. She wanted to know WHY he never pursued her. Wanted to know why he gave up so quick.
She said if he chased her, she would have come back.

He politely walked her back to her car, and dismissed her.


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## jayde

That's sad in a lot of ways. What we do to ourselves and those we 'love'!


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## turnera

Well, that's not exactly what I meant. I mean, if you're done, you're done. We each have our own limits. But if you DO decide you want to stay married, fight the affair, not your spouse. Help them get off the crack.


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## Undertheradar

Hi all, just thought I'd drop by for a quick update.

It's been a couple weeks since my wife decided that I'm still her main squeeze.

After spending lots of time together, I'll tell you that it's obvious that she has loads of resentment towards me.. Whatever it is that's holding her back, is quite obvious.
OTOH, after spending a couple weeks with her, I can tell you, that I do NOT like the person she's become.

A few classic moments from the past week:

1) When my wife was having her EA, she quietly obtained another cell phone, and different number. She did this so I obviously wouldn't be able to see her phone activity. Well, that phone died, and since she didn't want to spend 500.00 on a new phone, I suggested that maybe it's time to take her old phone back. She SNAPPED at me about how she STILL has a right to privacy!!!
I explained that it's quite normal for MARRIED people to have their phones on the same account. Her response..... WHat's next?.... A sign on my forehead that I'm married. (she's a piece of work)

2) Another one for ya:
She talks to anther co -worker on FB. He friended me and her ( I guess a courtesy). He's a real dorky guy, and in no way do I feel threatened by him. HOWEVER, I do believe that he feels HONORED to have a beautiful friend as my wife. He's ALL OVER HER FB every day. If she as much as says "hi", he goes into a FB marathon and text frenzy.
The other day, she was talking to him on FB ( out in the open, and the conversation revolved around nothing), when he started saying little flirty things like "what are you gonna do about it", and "why don't you call me more often", and I " I know that you think about me".... stuff like that. 
Not to cause an argument, i asked if she felt that he was flirting with her.... Well.. She SNAPPED again, and said that she's sorry he friend requested me, and how I should leave her and her friends alone. She told me they both talk that way to each other, and I should mind my own business!!

i'm allowing her to go through her withdrawal, and lash out at me. I'm not engaging, but am taking the time to study her actions, and read into her words.
After all was said and done, I quietly asked if she would feel better if we parted ways, so she can have her privacy. She backed off her aggressiveness, and we moved on for the day.

On another note..... She's leaving her job. She got a job working in a small office, with just her and another woman. Her job involves a certain level of phone customer service, and billing.
I'd like to see what happens after a few weeks of being removed from her old environment.

FWIW..... She's become such a nasty b*tch, it's not funny anymore.


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## Syrum

Wow UTR

It seems like she hasn't learned much at all. 

A sign might just be appropriate. 

MARRIED
poor impulse control and lacks empathy​


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## MakinOurWay

Those two examples you list above are discouraging and unhealthy. If you hadn't known she was having an affair previously, those are concrete evidence she is not invested in growing as a couple and is likely examining ways to get away with an affair.

You're showing incredible restraint in not fully engaging her to "make" her see things from your perspective. I'd bore her to death and create a further wedge with endless filibustering about how I'm right and she's wrong and can she not see it now?


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## turnera

Are you in MC?


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## Undertheradar

MakinOurWay said:


> Those two examples you list above are discouraging and unhealthy. If you hadn't known she was having an affair previously, those are concrete evidence she is not invested in growing as a couple and is likely examining ways to get away with an affair.
> 
> You're showing incredible restraint in not fully engaging her to "make" her see things from your perspective. I'd bore her to death and create a further wedge with endless filibustering about how I'm right and she's wrong and can she not see it now?





Syrum said:


> Wow UTR
> 
> It seems like she hasn't learned much at all.
> 
> A sign might just be appropriate.
> 
> MARRIED
> poor impulse control and lacks empathy​





turnera said:


> Are you in MC?


We're not in MC. I don't want to go there yet. It might be a waste of time for both of us. She's obviously sticking to her guns, and I'll go for the ride.


FWIW.... We've been doing great otherwise. The "hot spot" is anything pertaining to her cell phone, and co-workers. She wants 100% freedom when it comes to texting WHO she wants, WHEN she wants, and regardless of gender. She feels I should not say anything, and she's NOT doing anything wrong. If as much as mention texting, co-workers, or marital commitment, she goes nasty on me.

It's OK, I know her, and I've learned that that's her way of backing me off.
What I've also learned is absence makes her heart grow very fond.

A couple weeks ago, she passed a comment about how I need to "find another hobby", besides what she's doing.
I simply said "OK".
I've since joined the gym, spend more time alone with my children, and since it's summer, I'm spending some wonderful time bike riding along the shoreline. So, I'm happy.
However, when I'm gone, I get the "hi, what are you doing?" calls. I play along, and it always ends with "I Love you" from HER.

She's playing, I;m going along. I'm no longer "afraid" to lose her. I'll deal with her, and watch her calculated moves, and learn from them.
Perseverance is the key here. She no longer has me cornered, and she's attacking in any way possible. Sooner or later she's either give up, we go our own way.


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## turnera

I'm unsure what it is you're hoping/expecting to get out of this.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> I'm unsure what it is you're hoping/expecting to get out of this.


That's a good question. I'm also at a point where I don't know what I'm expecting either. It's become such old news.
I'm beginning to feel as if we're both just "here" to buy our time, and let our feeling fall by the wayside. 
As two people that have been together over 15 years, each day seems to pull us farther and farther apart. The issues are no longer issues for me, and whether or not she wants to be with me, is now irrelevant.
In my own honest assessment, I see us just floundering for a while, then walking away peacefully, and with a minimal amount of pain.

Turnera, If there was ANY way for us to save our marriage, I feel that it's going to be determined in the next few weeks. She's leaving her job this week. Her job has been the source of her EA, and her emotional ties away from me. She always seemed to come home from work with a sense of resentment, and anger. I sensed it, and saw it in her behavior.

Last night we had a sit down talk, and discussed her new job and she seemed to look forward to a fresh start. She seemed eager to get back into a routine, and was also looking forward to working with a couple women. 

What am I expecting?????

Well, for one, I'd like to see how she responds to time away from the initial source of our problem.
She's n longer working with single kids, 10 years her junior. She's working with married women her age, and they both have children in our schools. I'd like to see if she reverts back to her old self.
Something very strange happened to my wife with her job, and I'll never know the whole truth. All I know, is that she becomes a monster if we discuss it.

I'm not ready to move on, and neither is she. The situation is not critical. There is no fighting, and my kids are not being exposed to anything between us. This has come down to me and her, either desiring each other as a mate, or not.
If we continue on the same path we're on, we'll simply drift apart. ... Without any further problems. 
I'm OK with that, and I believe she is too.


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## turnera

She becomes a monster because she is ashamed of herself. She KNOWS how badly she screwed up. She doesn't trust you not to crucify her. Right now, YOU are the enemy who makes her feel bad. Every time she is around you, she expects you to shame her further. Prove her wrong. Leave it behind, BUT insist on a married lifestyle. If she starts being the kind of wife who goes out drinking once or twice a week, separate. Show her that you respect yourself too much to allow that in your marriage. But, if she's willing to put that 'fling' behind her, and return to her regular self, run with it. You got a reprieve. 

That said, I would strongly urge you to keep pushing for MC. You two have 2 decades of resentment, on both sides, to deal with, and you can't ever reclaim your love and happiness until it's resolved. And you two frankly aren't equipped to solve it on your own. 

The closest you two could come would be to initiate a 'meeting' once a week, say on Sunday night after kids are in bed, where you spend one hour a week being UTTERLY honest with each other and PROMISE to let the other speak and not rush in to defend yourself. This is about being HEARD, something most couples lose along the way, but is SO vital. Use a talking stick, if you have to. But start talking! The benefit of meeting night is that you promise to leave any relationship discussion alone for the rest of the week, because you know you'll have Sunday night to hash it out. It makes the rest of the week easier to enjoy each other and not be about 'winning.'


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## Deejo

turnera said:


> She becomes a monster because she is ashamed of herself. She KNOWS how badly she screwed up. She doesn't trust you not to crucify her. Right now, YOU are the enemy who makes her feel bad. Every time she is around you, she expects you to shame her further.


That paragraph right there, succinctly and explicitly outlines the primary reason why my marriage became unrecoverable.

And importantly, the emotions are hers. You aren't creating any of those negative feelings at this point, she is.

I had no interest in 'fixing' her. Something she needed to do for herself. But it became so dysfunctional that ANY disagreement or recommendation on my part was seen as a sleight. 

Be upbeat. Be confident. Be the man any woman would be attracted to ... be the guy your wife would be lucky to have. Not the guy that panders to his wife. I certainly don't think you are the latter.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> She becomes a monster because she is ashamed of herself. She KNOWS how badly she screwed up. She doesn't trust you not to crucify her. Right now, YOU are the enemy who makes her feel bad. Every time she is around you, she expects you to shame her further. Prove her wrong. Leave it behind, BUT insist on a married lifestyle. If she starts being the kind of wife who goes out drinking once or twice a week, separate. Show her that you respect yourself too much to allow that in your marriage. But, if she's willing to put that 'fling' behind her, and return to her regular self, run with it. You got a reprieve.
> 
> That said, I would strongly urge you to keep pushing for MC. You two have 2 decades of resentment, on both sides, to deal with, and you can't ever reclaim your love and happiness until it's resolved. And you two frankly aren't equipped to solve it on your own.
> 
> The closest you two could come would be to initiate a 'meeting' once a week, say on Sunday night after kids are in bed, where you spend one hour a week being UTTERLY honest with each other and PROMISE to let the other speak and not rush in to defend yourself. This is about being HEARD, something most couples lose along the way, but is SO vital. Use a talking stick, if you have to. But start talking! The benefit of meeting night is that you promise to leave any relationship discussion alone for the rest of the week, because you know you'll have Sunday night to hash it out. It makes the rest of the week easier to enjoy each other and not be about 'winning.'


Turnera, you're right. I never saw it that way, until now. This whole process is a learning process, not just how to deal with the issue itself, but now I see that there's residual behavior that needs to be dealt with.
I feel that I'm doing a good job, in learning her hot spots. I won't harp, nor will I bring up the job, EA, or anything pertaining to what happened anymore. I need to let her put it behind her, as much as I need to.
I want to see how she reacts to her new job away from the mess.

And YES, I will push for MC.... As soon as I feel that she's off the defensive. I'm sure she feels that a MC session will do nothing more than crucify her, and that's exactly what she's trying to avoid.

Also.....FWIW... My wife has NOT been out with her friends, co-workers, or any form of social drinking since this started. She hsn't even mentioned it.
The only entertainment with her girlfriends has been "card night" at her friend's house, and a couple shopping, and lunch dates. The whole co-worker scene is over and done with. The only thorn in MY side, is this one dorky guy from her job, that gets a big lift every time my wife talks to him. I'll let that play itself out.


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## Undertheradar

Deejo said:


> That paragraph right there, succinctly and explicitly outlines the primary reason why my marriage became unrecoverable.
> 
> And importantly, the emotions are hers. You aren't creating any of those negative feelings at this point, she is.
> 
> I had no interest in 'fixing' her. Something she needed to do for herself. But it became so dysfunctional that ANY disagreement or recommendation on my part was seen as a sleight.
> 
> Be upbeat. Be confident. Be the man any woman would be attracted to ... be the guy your wife would be lucky to have. Not the guy that panders to his wife. I certainly don't think you are the latter.


Yep, I can see why your marriage failed. Right now, it could be very easy for either one of us to walk away.
That's why I've decided to take my time, and be the stronger one here. My wife is 15 years younger, and there's always a chance that she's simply going through something. In my book, words, are always forgivable. The EA is forgivable, a PA would not have been. I'm allowing for that. She's obviously feeling emotionally uptight, and she may not be "fixable". I have no intention of attempting to fix her. However, I will give it ample time for the situation to correct itself. If after she starts her new job, things don't change, then it would be a time to evaluate our marriage for face value, and go from there.

And yes, I am upbeat, and confident. I feel good. I've gotten a nice summer tan. I'm working out at the gym, and I'm riding my bike. My children are having a great summer, and I honestly feel that the person I am NOW, could easily make a woman very happy. I've been reborn, and have recovered the lost soul, that was ripped away from me, when this EA thing started. 

Tell you something funny.... A couple days ago, we bumped into a female co-worker of HERS. My wife introduced me to her. I said hello, we all spoke for a few minutes, and we moved on. A few minutes later, my wife says to me: "she practically undressed you, right in front of me". I laughed, and said.... I guess it's part of the job requirement at that place LOL. I couldn't help myself. I just had to. LOL


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## turnera

Undertheradar said:


> And YES, I will push for MC.... As soon as I feel that she's off the defensive. I'm sure she feels that a MC session will do nothing more than crucify her, and that's exactly what she's trying to avoid.


 Why don't you just start practicing your communication skills and TELL her exactly this? 

I'll tell you why. You're afraid of her. Afraid of her leaving. You can't have a marriage based on that. If she would leave you over such a conversation, then she has more problems than you'll ever fix in your marriage.


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## turnera

And, btw, being 'sure she feels' is a great way to ruin your marriage, too. Stop deciding what or how she feels. FIND OUT by asking her.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Why don't you just start practicing your communication skills and TELL her exactly this?
> 
> I'll tell you why. You're afraid of her. Afraid of her leaving. You can't have a marriage based on that. If she would leave you over such a conversation, then she has more problems than you'll ever fix in your marriage.


No, not true. I'm not afraid of her. A MC won't be the deciding factor in her leaving or not. I've seen her response to MC already, and I don't want to deal with it.
I'm not forcing her to do anything. She gets defensive, and if I drag her reluctantly, we'll wind up fighting. I don't want to fight, I'm enjoying life right now.... just the way it is.
I refuse to engage!!!!

Did you read your own reply? YOU said that she's ashamed of herself. I agree.
What better way to shove something down her throat, than to throw her in front of an MC right now.
I'd rather leave it alone, and let the chips fall as they may.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> And, btw, being 'sure she feels' is a great way to ruin your marriage, too. Stop deciding what or how she feels. FIND OUT by asking her.


Duh, she's made it very clear how she feels.

Bringing up the EA, makes her a monster. Maybe I shouldn't have said "I'm sure she feels", maybe I should have said " she becomes a monster" when she discusses the EA.

Turnera, please understand something...... I've been dealing with this since February. It's gotten stale, and I've healed 100%. The least amount of confrontation, the better off I am.

I


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## turnera

I get it. I really do. You want your old life back. But this is a band aid. Over a scab. I know how these go. You're gonna wait 6 months for her to cool off, so you can approach her without her blowing up. But in 6 months, she will be able to make YOU into the monster because you.just.won't.give.it.up. 

And then you will HAVE to give up hope of any sort of MC because it will forever be the signal of YOU being an a$$hole. And you'll spend the rest of your life biting your tongue because she now gets to call you the bad guy; totally shifted onto you and NOTHING got resolved. 

I wish you luck.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> I get it. I really do. You want your old life back. But this is a band aid. Over a scab. I know how these go. You're gonna wait 6 months for her to cool off, so you can approach her without her blowing up. But in 6 months, she will be able to make YOU into the monster because you.just.won't.give.it.up.
> 
> And then you will HAVE to give up hope of any sort of MC because it will forever be the signal of YOU being an a$$hole. And you'll spend the rest of your life biting your tongue because she now gets to call you the bad guy; totally shifted onto you and NOTHING got resolved.
> 
> I wish you luck.



LOL.... Wrong!!!

I give 6 months for the sake of 15 years. Either the issue goes behind us, or it doesn't. If it goes behind us, we go day by day, as most married people do. If it's still an issue, no harm done. we move on.
I'm PAST the a$$hole stage, and ready to move on, if that's what has to happen. She can't make an A$$hole out of me, if I volunteer to give a few months of my life into a cooling off period.

And what makes you think that SHE'S the only one cooling off? Maybe I"M the one that has to accept having HER, after what SHE did???
Love is a two way street. Somewhere, we have to meet in the middle, or we keep going opposite directions.

I have the patience to ride this out. I stopped chasing her a while ago. 
Trust me on this one. She's no longer playing me. And if she does, I'm aware of it, and letting her blow her own smoke.

I closed my heart to her pain, and opened my mind. I've decided to be smarter than her at the game.

Not too hard.

FWIW..... I'm kinda surprised at your reply. You sounded more like a scorned, angry person, than a sensible, patient adult, that I would have expected to have learned from the experiences around here.
Not EVERYTHING is a script.


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## turnera

No. I'm not scorned, nor angry. My job, IMO, is to remind people that everyone benefits when people stand up for their rights. I see way too many people on here just give in to keep the peace, at the expense of a LOT of things. And I've been around long enough to know that people who say things are cool now, we've worked it out but we're not going to address it...show up months or years later, saying we should have listened.

Maybe you can get past that. Maybe you learned enough in your time here to avoid it, to get better responses from her and you, to not become adversaries. I hope so. 

I rarely tell people to separate or divorce. I don't believe in it, if kids are involved. People loved each other at one point, they can again. However, just deciding not to talk about something because the offender goes into protect/attack mode to shut the other one up rarely results in a happy marriage. 

But like you said, we have to trust you, that you've learned enough not to let it slide. That you're not being played. So, like I said, I wish you luck.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> No. I'm not scorned, nor angry. My job, IMO, is to remind people that everyone benefits when people stand up for their rights. I see way too many people on here just give in to keep the peace, at the expense of a LOT of things. And I've been around long enough to know that people who say things are cool now, we've worked it out but we're not going to address it...show up months or years later, saying we should have listened.
> 
> Maybe you can get past that. Maybe you learned enough in your time here to avoid it, to get better responses from her and you, to not become adversaries. I hope so.
> 
> I rarely tell people to separate or divorce. I don't believe in it, if kids are involved. People loved each other at one point, they can again. However, just deciding not to talk about something because the offender goes into protect/attack mode to shut the other one up rarely results in a happy marriage.
> 
> But like you said, we have to trust you, that you've learned enough not to let it slide. That you're not being played. So, like I said, I wish you luck.


Turnera,
I'm not sure I even want her anymore. The amount of grief that she's caused me over the past 6 months could very well be a preview of more to come.

As much as I'm letting her let it slide, I'm trying to recapture a passion I once felt for my wife. 
As of right now, I no longer have that passion. Gone are the days, where I feel like bringing home a bunch of flowers. Gone are the days, where I longed for my wife's passion, gone are the expectations that my wife will be happy to see me, after a day's work.
As you can see, this process doesn't have to be abrupt. As each day goes by, I realize that I don't really have a wife anymore. I have a shell of someone that used to love me with all her heart, and let it be known. I haven't seen her in a while, and she may not come back.
My wife has a shell of a husband, that is drifting further and further apart. I emotionally gave up the fight, and I'm only waiting for curtain to come down.

The ONLY glimmer of a chance to change, will come after she gets her new job going. If her actions had anything to do with where she was working, then I expect to see a change.
If no changes, then I can assure you, we will part ways.
I won't waste my time with her in MC. She knows how to say what needs to be said, to get what she wants.


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## turnera

I'm reading a really good book, new book, called The Hypnotist. The main character is watching his marriage fall apart over miscommunications and such. It's a fascinating view of a marriage. They'll probably reconcile in the end. 

Good luck. I hope it works out for you.


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## Undertheradar

*Weekly Update, for those tracking this thread:*

My wife hasn't been to her job at Walmart in 3 weeks. The total removal from that place seems to have had a positive impact on her (so far).
She's been working at her new job since, and comes home very happy at the end of day.

The past week, she's initiated her share of "small talk" about the issues that we've been going through. This is something I couldn't get out of her in the past. I found it both refreshing, and encouraging. I was listening to her, and she started talking about a "fresh start", and where we could go from here.

I'm going one day at a time.

Not sure if I should continue posting. No one knows how these things turn out, but for now, we have peace. That's all I want.

As some have mentioned, she could very well just be playing along, and if that's the case, time will tell.

I want to thank everyone for their input, and advice. I've learned so much here, and have listened to each and every one of you.

A special note to Turnera..... I agree with everything you say. I do know that I'm taking a chance here, and she could very well be making a total jerk out of me. I understand that I could be in the same position in six months, and could wind up splitting up anyway.

Splitting up is scary, and many of us would settle for a life of peace in a family that stays together, than to face the legal and emotional battles that come with a divorce with children involved.
If I have to guess, I'll say that my marriage will gradually disolve to the point where we both will walk away amicably.
I'm OK with that. If anything, it will give us both, the mental, and financial preparation required to move on.

I do understand the ramifications of my decision.


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## turnera

radar, the best you can do is move forward with your eyes open and with a new appreciation for your marriage and your family. That's what you're doing. Sounds hopeful, and I'm happy for you.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> radar, the best you can do is move forward with your eyes open and with a new appreciation for your marriage and your family. That's what you're doing. Sounds hopeful, and I'm happy for you.


Yes, that's true. I want to appreciate everything I have, but first I need to believe that it's really here.

I still don't trust her, and it will take work and consistancy to get to a trust level. However, I can only be who I am, and hope that I'm getting the woman I married.

This will work itself out in the end.

Thank you so much. I mean it.


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## Undertheradar

*Well, I thought I'd give another update:*

The past week has been spectacular. We spent plenty of time together, and had a well balanced week of family and our private time.

A few highlights:

At one point, she broke down into a fit of tears. I asked what was wrong, and she described how close she came to losing me as her husband. I didn't want to over engage, so I let her speak. She said she felt that she never did anything wrong, but the EA thing was very deceiving, and easily sucked her into it. She said she "went through something", and vowed never to look back. She said she questioned our marriage, when all this was happening, and was also very disturbed by the way I manhandled her EA. 

Finally, she said she looks back now, and it now feels good to be the "old shoes" that we were before all this began.
I asked her when she was leaving (sarcasm), and she said she intends to be with me as originally intended as married.

She asks me if I would be willing to forget what happened, and chaulk it off as a bad learning experience.
She assured me that she never had any physical contact with anyone, and her EA was a silly exchange of "feel good" immature nonsense. She regrets what she did to me, and wants us to go forward and rebuild our friendship.
I listened completely, hugged her, we exchanged ILY's, and laughed the night away. We had a great time together. 

At the end, she initiated intimacy, and at that point I knew my wife was back.

For all intended purposes, I still feel that this is a work in progress.

I think we both learned a lesson from this. I don't think my wife would ever venture down the path she went, unless she fully intends to end our marriage.
I also have a new found appreciation for my wife, and intend to make sure I don't give her any reasons to go down that path again.

I think back now, and I can understand why the "EA nonsense" attracted her. I'll assume some responsibility as well. There were things I could have done differently, and I've adjusted my lifestyle to better accommodate her needs as a woman, and as my wife.

A note to those that have followed this thread:

I want to give a whole hearted thank you to everyone that contributed, and offered their advice.
You're truly a great bunch of people here, and I know that God will watch over all of you.

FWIW... I intend to stick around in my spare time, and hopefully be there for some other pople going through what I've been through.


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## that_girl

Wow.

She's hurting and prideful and doesn't want you but doesn't want anyone else to have you either.

I say, leave. Do what YOU want to do...make a choice. She isn't going anywhere...

Just read your update  

Smiles


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## jayde

Radar . . . way to go! Wow - you've been through a lot and it sounds like it's been worth it for you. You stuck it out, protected yourself, gave your wife room to mess up (without 'screwing' up) and gave her a chance when she seemed contrite. You are the man! I trust she's on the up and up with you and things will continue to get better for you both. (Yes, I am an eternal optimist).

Good to hear you're sticking around ... people coming here could the sage, well-thought out advice you can offer. There's a time to lawyer-up and a time to husband-up.

All the best to you both!


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## Undertheradar

that_girl said:


> Wow.
> 
> She's hurting and prideful and doesn't want you but doesn't want anyone else to have you either.
> 
> I say, leave. Do what YOU want to do...make a choice. She isn't going anywhere...
> 
> Just read your update
> 
> Smiles


Not too sure how to take this :-/


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## Undertheradar

jayde said:


> Radar . . . way to go! Wow - you've been through a lot and it sounds like it's been worth it for you. You stuck it out, protected yourself, gave your wife room to mess up (without 'screwing' up) and gave her a chance when she seemed contrite. You are the man! I trust she's on the up and up with you and things will continue to get better for you both. (Yes, I am an eternal optimist).
> 
> Good to hear you're sticking around ... people coming here could the sage, well-thought out advice you can offer. There's a time to lawyer-up and a time to husband-up.
> 
> All the best to you both!


I know when she's up and up, and when I should be careful. I honestly feel that she's come out of her fog, and is ready to repair any damage done. 
I can only go one day at a time, and see where it takes us. I won't draw any conclusions, nor will I judge her. I'll see where we go from here, and keep an open mind.


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## that_girl

Undertheradar said:


> Not too sure how to take this :-/


Aww, I'm sorry! I had only read your first post....I didn't see sooo many posts were there!

Then I read your update and it sounds like it's going in the right direction so I gave you some smiles.


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## Undertheradar

that_girl said:


> Aww, I'm sorry! I had only read your first post....I didn't see sooo many posts were there!
> 
> Then I read your update and it sounds like it's going in the right direction so I gave you some smiles.


LOL... That's what you get for taking the short cut


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## that_girl

lolll Story of my life 

Which I'm working on 

But good for you.


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## turnera

Good update.

May I just make one suggestion: tell her that you want to find a good marriage therapist. Not to rehash what happened; you can promise to never bring that up. But to learn new, improved ways of communicating with each other. We all just use the tools we're raised with, but there is so much more out there, tools that professionals in the field come up with, to help you choose new, better ways of dealing with stress, each other, etc. Well worth the money to get you the new, improved marriage you want.


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## Undertheradar

turnera said:


> Good update.
> 
> May I just make one suggestion: tell her that you want to find a good marriage therapist. Not to rehash what happened; you can promise to never bring that up. But to learn new, improved ways of communicating with each other. We all just use the tools we're raised with, but there is so much more out there, tools that professionals in the field come up with, to help you choose new, better ways of dealing with stress, each other, etc. Well worth the money to get you the new, improved marriage you want.


Turnera, I didn't forget how much you've been wanting us to do that.
I mentioned us seeing "someone" (didn't use the word "Marriage counselor"), to help us deal with certain ( I called them "hot spots") in our marriage. She was receptive.
I told her there was so much about HER, that I felt the need to learn how to deal with, and the help of "someone" would assist me in doing so. I assured her, it could only lead to a better understanding of each other, and would help her get through to me. (Don't forget, we're talking about someone who's never wrong).

She's Ok with it. I honestly don't know where to start, but I guess the local yellow pages is one place.


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## turnera

Awesome!

I would go to Google, type in your city, type in counseling, and type in reviews. You should be able to find a few websites where people post reviews of their experiences with said counselors. Pick the one with the best reviews.


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## that_girl

turnera said:


> Awesome!
> 
> I would go to Google, type in your city, type in counseling, and type in reviews. You should be able to find a few websites where people post reviews of their experiences with said counselors. Pick the one with the best reviews.


HA! That's how I found my awesome head-shrinker  I love her!


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## WhiteRabbit

She sounds manic to me. Maybe she needs IC too...


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## brownmale

She's not getting her sexual high from you (happens in many marriages, specially after the kids come along, or 2-3 years of committed monogamy). She also wants to enjoy the security of having a man around, without needing to work for it. Probably she's saying she's also used to you over the years....

For a woman in mid-life (unless she's kept herself very well) can be a tough job to find a new mate. 

Is this what it amounts to? I've been through something similar... my partner talks of "divorce" but "after the kids grow up". I'm the sole breadwinner...


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