# Can people truly change?



## Limbo33 (Dec 3, 2014)

Hello,

I previously posted my story in another section, (http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/235906-new-here-struggling-decision.html) but I'm posting here today because it was the discovery of my wife's 6+ month sexting affair with a former coworker that put me over the edge and wanting to divorce.

I had multiple issues with my wife before I discovered her sexting. As far as I can tell they never had a PA but there were texts from both her and the OM on multiple occasions, both expressing the desire to meet up. 

She maintains that she is "really sorry" but she also tried denying anything happened until I started reading the texts to her. It was only then she admitted to anything and she also claims that sexting isn't really cheating. On top of that she "doesn't remember" so many of the details when I ask her. I don't know how thats possible. I feel like she is still keeping things from me.

On the other hand she is going to both individual counseling, marriage counseling since I uncovered the affair she cries to me literally every single day that she is sorry and loves me and will never do anything like that again and please give her another chance. 

My gut tells me to file for divorce but I have a 1 year old son who is my world and I hate the thought of missing a second of his life or the thought that a divorce could impact him negatively in any way. 

My wife swears she has a lot of work to do, but she knows she is already changing and still working to be a changed person. My problem is I don't believe her still about certain things, and I have serious doubts that she can truly change for good or ever be truly honest with me. 

Is someone that is capable of carrying on a long term affair like that and able to lie so easily to the person that is supposed to mean the most to them in their life capable of truly changing? Do I want to bank my future on someone who has already shown the capacity to lie and disregard my feelings without hesitation? 

I'd love to hear from anyone that has given a spouse a 2nd chance after they pleaded for it. How did it end up in the long run? What are my odds that she can actually make real changes?

Thanks to anyone who has read this far.....


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Yes, it is possible.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Yes, people can change. In my opinion, though, it's exceedingly rare.

But honestly, none of that sh*t even matters. Here is all that matters...

For as long as your WW remains unwilling to admit that sexting is cheating, you don't stand a snowball's chance in Hell of properly repairing your marriage w/ her.

Period.

Also, if I recall your other thread correctly, this is actually the second time that she's cheated on you, correct? So basically, we're not talking about a second chance -- we're talking about a third chance.


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## Limbo33 (Dec 3, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Yes, people can change. In my opinion, though, it's exceedingly rare.
> 
> But honestly, none of that sh*t even matters. Here is all that matters...
> 
> ...


No, that wasn't me you're thinking of. This is the first time my wife has done this to me. She has hurt me in other ways but this is the first time straying outside the marriage (that I know of).

And to clarify her thoughts about sexting. She says she knows its "really ****ed up and she would be devastated if I did it to her" but that its nowhere close as bad as having a physical affair. 

I told her they are both a major breach of trust and hers was long term and calculated.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You say that she is in marriage counseling. Are you there with her?

Yes people can change.

The vast majority of cheaters lie. They are typically ashamed of what they did and do not want to admit it. Most will only admit to whatever the BS discovered. You will most likely never know the whole truth. What I finally told my husband after a lot of trickle truth is that I was not going to play that game. Either he just told the entire truth or I was going to assume that my imagination was right. And believe me I have a good imagination. And we would go forward as though the had done everything I can imagine. He left it at that. At some point you have to do that because you will never know it all.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Limbo33 said:


> No, that wasn't me you're thinking of. This is the first time my wife has done this to me. She has hurt me in other ways but this is the first time straying outside the marriage (that I know of).
> 
> And to clarify her thoughts about sexting. She says she knows its "really ****ed up and she would be devastated if I did it to her" but that its nowhere close as bad as having a physical affair.
> 
> I told her they are both a major breach of trust and hers was long term and calculated.


While I'd agree that a PA would be worse, not everyone feels the same way. And the bottom line either way is that it's as bad as *YOU* feel it to be.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Limbo33 said:


> I'd love to hear from anyone that has given a spouse a 2nd chance after they pleaded for it. How did it end up in the long run? What are my odds that she can actually make real changes?


I gave my second husband a second chance. He had multiple cyber affairs and met some of the women in real life for sex when he traveled for his job. We did a lot of work together and it worked out well. However we did divorce 10 years later for different reasons. The affairs had nothing to do with why we divorced.

I know a lot of people, men and women, who gave their WS a second change and rebuilt good, strong marriages. 

It's completely possible. People usually need guidance on how to do that.

What your the two of you doing to rebuild your marriage?


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Here's the thing Limbo. Even if you divorce her and hook up with another chick, ain't no guarantee she won't just skip the sexting and go right for the fvcking. The way you describe it, she seems to have met the "remorseful" criteria. Since she was quick on the draw with her cell phone, she would have to decide whether she wanted me or the cell phone for the immediate future.
But look at it like this my man. At least you're not like some of the cats that have to finagle around trying to run the other man off and hemming the old lady up in an effort to force reconciliation.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Can people change? I believe that answer to that ultimately is no. Can they alter their ability to prioritize and place more importance on things they once considered less important and vice versa? Rarely. The amount of thought, self control and determination necessary to accomplish a priority shift is substantial and simple not doable for the vast majority of people.

It takes focus and an unwavering desire, to the point of obsession, to be able to rewrite one's persona. And it takes even more persistence to be able to convince others of this difference, especially someone who has been deeply hurt by their actions. It is simply to difficult and requires too much effort for most people to see through.

If you read on here you will find that it happens far less than not and that the much more likely outcome is for them to half hardheartedly attempt to fool their SO into thinking they have changed only to have their old self resurface.

One way to tell if someone "gets it" is how they respond/react to the exposure of their misdeeds. Your wife has already downplayed the seriousness of her sexting. The real issue here though is not the act itself but rather the lies, deceit and withholding that follows. She indicated to you that what she did was not as bad as a PA but in true reality a lie about an A is no better or worse than a lie about cheating on a diet. They both speak to character and integrity and the lack thereof in the prevaricator.

It is the level of importance that we who have been deceived put on the deception that determines its severity. We may get mildly upset over someone lying about their diet and yet become enraged when someone lies about an A, when in actuality they are both lies intended to deceive. I find no difference in them but many here do and it will be your own valuation of the deceit that ultimately either allows you to accept and move on or suffer forever unable to regain the trust. I wish you well.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Yes, people can learn from their experience, and can change both their thinking and behavior. It takes work, and time. If it feels like she's right there with you working through this, that's a good sign. If it feels like you're struggling against each other, it's less positive. 



> I had multiple issues with my wife before I discovered her sexting.


You'd have to deal with whatever that is about in order to truly reconcile and build a stronger relationship from there. This is the time to be open with each other and deal with these issues. Get everything out on the table.


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## Mr Right (Oct 5, 2013)

Sorry your here Limbo, IMO what you need to do is make a appointment for her to have a PolyGraph. Just tell her you have an appointment that you both need to attend. Leave so you will get there an hour to 45 minutes early and on the way to the Poly appointment tell her that you love her and want to work it out but you have a feeling there is more to her story and you need her to take a PolyGraph for your own peace of mind. Tell her you will also take onE where she can ask you ANYTHING she wants. If you starts on about you not trusting her, tell her it's her fault that the trust was broken between you. My guess is she will spill her guts in the parking lot and tell you most of what happened. Good Luck


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

People do change and they need a dam good reason to do that.

So ....with out consequence bad behavior continues. From were I'm sitting the vows you took are now invalid. so its time to start from scratch so lets see if the both of you can hook each other again

.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr Right said:


> Sorry your here Limbo, IMO what you need to do is make a appointment for her to have a PolyGraph. Just tell her you have an appointment that you both need to attend. Leave so you will get there an hour to 45 minutes early and on the way to the Poly appointment tell her that you love her and want to work it out but you have a feeling there is more to her story and you need her to take a PolyGraph for your own peace of mind. Tell her you will also take onE where she can ask you ANYTHING she wants. If you starts on about you not trusting her, tell her it's her fault that the trust was broken between you. My guess is she will spill her guts in the parking lot and tell you most of what happened. Good Luck


Polygraphs results are wrong about 25% of the time. So he would spend a nice hunk of money and still not know if it was the truth.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Limbo33

Yes, people can change. To what extent can they change, well I changed drastically. In my youth I will tell you I was the bad Apple. Brought home by police , school suspensions, and criminal activity. Basically a complete screw up. My football coach told his players that he would keep in touch with his former players. With that he looked at me and said, "I won't see you again as I refuse to visit players in prison. Sobering words. 

I changed, became a different person totally. I kept one friend from high school as he is a positive influence. My WW is changing after a six month affair with a co-worker. WW is doing everything correct for eleven months now. Only you know best if your WW is telling you the truth and showing true remorse. 

Is this OM married? If so tell his wife. If not, call him. Tell him you will report his conduct to the state licensing board unless he tell you everything. Tell him your WW confessed the entire affair to you and if there is any change in the story you will call the licensing board. In fact I would call him regardless but that's me. 

The I don't remember answer, not true remorse, you know she remembers. So in your case you can't reconcile, yet, not to say you can't if she changes. Sorry you are here and best of luck to you.


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

If you want to get into the physics of this, then yes. People change constantly. Even our recollection of things will change over time. Every 7 years almost any given cell in our body is a new replacement of an old one. Put simply if you were to meet your 20-years-ago-self, the most that could be said about you is that you both share identical genetics and a few memories.

Here's the real kicker though. Pre-affair I viewed my wife as pure, beautiful, loving, protective, and my soulmate. Post-affair I struggle just to see her as beautiful when I can stand looking at her long enough not to imagine some douche-canoe's c0ck inside of her. For me the real question is, "Can I change the way I see her?" Ultimately my answer is no. I feel as if I have to tell myself too many lies to swallow that pill. One good argument to solve this is to let the past be in the past. My problem with that is that the past should matter. It needs to hold weight. Else how could we learn from our failures? Infidelity, to many folks, isn't some simple mistake that can be left in the past for some rosy view of the future. I've even read arguments that the past (ex. "We've got XX years of history") is itself a reason to compartmentalize this betrayal as ancient history.

Now I'm not saying to hold onto bitterness and resentment at the expense of all else. That does need to be dealt with, and we all have different ways of doing that. 

I am saying that, assuming your wife is truly doing her part to repair the relationship, how much of this history are you willing to accept as part of your marriage? How much are you willing to change (your views of your wife, your trust level in her, your feelings of what betrayal is and how far is too far, etc.) in order to make your marriage work? My guess is that it is this personal struggle to answer these questions that makes this topic so hot and varied between us all.

Often limbo for a BS is caused by a conflict (research Cognitive Dissonance) between your internal feelings of the betrayal, and the metric tons of bad advice we all seem to be force fed from day one. Weed out the crap and you'll find your answers hiding there in the dark.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I have some bad news for you. Your wife's counselling is not working. 

How so? It is like someone with kleptomania receiving counselling and therapy to stop them being a kleptomaniac.

Until that person admits that stealing from the homes of people they visit is wrong, then they will never stop stealing.

Until your wife can be made to realise that she was unfaithful to you, that not only did she hurt you but that she understands exactly why she hurt you, then she does have the capacity to do it again.

You might need to change therapists.

Incidentally, have your child's DNA tested. In this instance this is NOT to be done to establish parenthood but to show your wife that she has destroyed your faith in her. Let her see the depth and breadth of her betrayal, that you can no longer have any faith in her.

She needs to do a lot more work on herself before she can genuinely change for the better.

Good luck to you and your family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

Limbo33 said:


> No, that wasn't me you're thinking of. This is the first time my wife has done this to me. She has hurt me in other ways but this is the first time straying outside the marriage (that I know of).
> 
> And to clarify her thoughts about sexting. She says she knows its "really ****ed up and she would be devastated if I did it to her" but that its nowhere close as bad as having a physical affair.
> 
> I told her they are both a major breach of trust and hers was long term and calculated.


******************************************************

The horrific thing for all BSs..R OR D...go or stay...THE DAMAGE will be with us always....


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Sometimes people do not need to change who they are, but they need to change what they do.

It is quite possible for a fundamentally good person to do something bad, such as have an affair, but to still be that same fundamentally good person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

*Sv: Re: Can people truly change?*



MattMatt said:


> Sometimes people do not need to change who they are, but they need to change what they do.
> 
> It is quite possible for a fundamentally good person to do something bad, such as have an affair, but to still be that same fundamentally good person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What's your definition of a fundamentally good person? Or is it because you consider all people good?


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

If there is a possibility that she could have hooked up with this guy then I would think about paternity testing for your 1 year old and STD testing as well.

She says sexting is not cheating. What planet is she on?


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

To maximize the impact of her deceipt, DNA the child. Make sure she knows about it. Stay firm and make NO appologies for this act. 

It's not normal to sext other men. It just isn't. Do you know how they met? Electronically? Face to face? Have you contacted OMs wife/GF? That would help get him off her back. Have you checked your phone records, computer browser history. Placed a VAR in the car she drives and at home where she spends most of her time. GPS the car, collect her phone and recover deleted texts. Checked her phone contacts. Many times they use a ladies name instead of a guys name. 

Cheaters are liars. Your wife is a liar. Deceipt is a lie.

As for D... Would you want a wife who gets caught and lies about sexting or worse? Well, you're Married to one.


Guys don't sext married women unless there's a chance of getting some. They'll only work the list of possibles. Decent ladies will nuke them immediately and inform their husbands. Her boundaries are what caused the trouble.

ETA: marriage is an arrangement where the wife hopes he'll change but doesn't -- and where the man hopes she'll never change but does.

She's changed for the worse. So, yes, people can change. She did.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Re: Sv: Re: Can people truly change?*



cpacan said:


> What's your definition of a fundamentally good person? Or is it because you consider all people good?


There are some people who are fundamentally good, some are fundamentally bad. 

The former outweigh the latter. in my experience.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

I think Retribution brings up a good point to consider, and that is not can she change, but can you?

From now on you are forever changed due to her actions, so that proves that yes people can change both for good snd bad. You now have little trust in her and will for a long time. You question her motives, thoughts, and ideals. Someone that you had complete trust in is now gone and you not only question her, you also question yourself.

you need to ask the question of yourself, can I change to be able to deal and get through this, or will it forever haunt me. If the latter, then you know it won't matter either way what she does. Be truthful to yourself and t=it will help you make the right decision.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

bryanp said:


> If there is a possibility that she could have hooked up with this guy then I would think about paternity testing for your 1 year old and STD testing as well.
> 
> She says sexting is not cheating. What planet is she on?


******************************************************

And" oral SEX is not sex or cheating" my favorite......Jesus CHRIST,the crap WSs come up with Still astounds me!


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## lovelyblue (Oct 25, 2013)

_she also claims that sexting isn't really cheating._

If the shoe was on the other foot would she be saying this?

Secondly.

I do think people can change. But the person has to want to do it for themselves and has to be willing to do the hard work in-order to change for the better.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Limbo33 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I previously posted my story in another section, (http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/235906-new-here-struggling-decision.html) but I'm posting here today because it was the discovery of my wife's 6+ month sexting affair with a former coworker that put me over the edge and wanting to divorce.
> 
> ...


your instincts are telling you what you don't want to admit. You know you can't trust her


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

by MattMatt
Incidentally, have your child's DNA tested. In this instance this is NOT to be done to establish parenthood but to show your wife that she has destroyed your faith in her. Let her see the depth and breadth of her betrayal, that you can no longer have any faith in her.

*******************************************************

Best advice yet...if you want Shift direction and give her pause...do this now!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

People can change but they have to acknowledge what they are first.

Your wife is a cheater. Are you sure you have the whole story? She sounds like a trickle truther.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

People do change. Just rarely when someone else is trying to make them change. It's the age old lesson that we can control ourselves but not others.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

P.S. Has she gone NC with OM and has OMs wife or GF been informed?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

No of course not. It's not what they do it's who they are.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

You found some things.

Has she written you a timeline of her A?

And exposed her actions to your family and esp the OM to the world?


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

People can change and do. For instance your WW changed from the person you married to who she is now.

Most people change because they have to. Think of all those New Years resolutions that have not been done.

Take control and start moving on. Make yourself stronger.

Then she will feel she needs to change or you move on.


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## pilotranger (Oct 7, 2013)

Limbo33 said:


> No, that wasn't me you're thinking of. This is the first time my wife has done this to me. She has hurt me in other ways but this is the first time straying outside the marriage (that I know of).
> 
> And to clarify her thoughts about sexting. She says she knows its "really ****ed up and she would be devastated if I did it to her" but that its nowhere close as bad as having a physical affair.
> 
> I told her they are both a major breach of trust and hers was long term and calculated.


Even though sexting is not a physical affair, it's an impure thought, so in my book it's an affair. An affair is an affair is an affair.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

pilotranger said:


> Even though sexting is not a physical affair, it's an impure thought, so in my book it's an affair. An affair is an affair is an affair.


We all have impure thoughts, so that's not the best criteria to use when making the determination w/ respect to what is and isn't an affair.

An affair -- even an emotional affair -- is the thought made manifest in a tangible, palpable way, and the end result is that considerable effort is expended in order to achieve emotional and/or sexual (and whether actual, physical contact has occurred or not) fulfillment outside the marriage.


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## Limbo33 (Dec 3, 2014)

bryanp said:


> If there is a possibility that she could have hooked up with this guy then I would think about paternity testing for your 1 year old and STD testing as well.
> 
> She says sexting is not cheating. What planet is she on?


To be honest, my son is a spitting image of me. I have zero doubts he is mine. The guy she cheated with looks nothing like me at all. 

And yes she maintains that what she did is "really messed up" but not cheating. She refuses to call it that. The most she'll say is that it's a betrayal. Seriously.


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## Limbo33 (Dec 3, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> I think Retribution brings up a good point to consider, and that is not can she change, but can you?
> 
> From now on you are forever changed due to her actions, so that proves that yes people can change both for good snd bad. You now have little trust in her and will for a long time. You question her motives, thoughts, and ideals. Someone that you had complete trust in is now gone and you not only question her, you also question yourself.
> 
> you need to ask the question of yourself, can I change to be able to deal and get through this, or will it forever haunt me. If the latter, then you know it won't matter either way what she does. Be truthful to yourself and t=it will help you make the right decision.


You're right. She has fundamentally changed me and how I view people. I am the type that trusts unconditionally, especially those close to me, and she took full advantage of that. That's why she was able to get away with it for so long. I trusted her fully. 

I really think I would have to force myself to not think about what she is capable and what she did to me and my family for the rest of my life to be able to stay with her and I don't know that I can do that. 

I just wish I knew if she could truly make a 180 and change for good, but I just don't know that its possible. And thats when I ask myself if I want to back my future and my happiness on someone who has hurt me so deeply already. She begs for that opportunity to show me that she can do it, but I feel like it's a leap of faith I'd have to take and I just don't want to/can't do it.


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## Limbo33 (Dec 3, 2014)

lovelyblue said:


> _she also claims that sexting isn't really cheating._
> 
> If the shoe was on the other foot would she be saying this?
> 
> ...


She once told me when we first started dating that cheating was an absolute deal breaker for her and she would dump someone instantly who cheated on her. 

When I point this irony out to her, thats when she says "this is different, this isn't really cheating like I was talking about"


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## Limbo33 (Dec 3, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> People can change but they have to acknowledge what they are first.
> 
> Your wife is a cheater. Are you sure you have the whole story? She sounds like a trickle truther.


No, I don't feel like I'm getting the full story and I've told her that. The ONLY things I know are the things I could figure out on my own. She has offered up nothing on her own that I didn't have concrete evidence of. She swears there is nothing left to tell, but I just don't believe it.


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## Limbo33 (Dec 3, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> P.S. Has she gone NC with OM and has OMs wife or GF been informed?


She has gone NC with him. I have not said anything to the OM's wife. I honestly haven't really thought about it. I'd have to really dig to figure out her name and contact info.


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## Limbo33 (Dec 3, 2014)

harrybrown said:


> You found some things.
> 
> Has she written you a timeline of her A?
> 
> And exposed her actions to your family and esp the OM to the world?


No, she gives me no details about her A outside of what I figure out on my own. The rest she "doesn't remember" and "she doesn't keep track of those things".


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## Limbo33 (Dec 3, 2014)

Thank you for all the responses. They mean a lot to be able to talk about this with people who have had similar experiences. 

My wife is in counseling now and is going through a lot of tough feelings she had suppressed for many years, from way before we were together. Some of it can explain her ****ty, negative attitude towards people in general. She seems to be truly working to get past her issues and is even going on some anti-depressants to help her further. I really want her to figure her issues out and better herself. I truly do want her to be happy. 

I am glad she is finally getting the help she needs, but that's what made me start this thread. I just don't know that I can believe she will truly change despite telling me she wants to be a better person. She has done so much damage I don't know that I can trust my happiness and life with someone capable of lies, dishonesty and selfishness. 

The forgiving side of me wants to believe she can do it, and god knows it would be so much easier to not divorce her and just continue on with our lives that we have already started. But if I'm honest with myself, I just don't know that I can do it anymore with her.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Can people "truly" change? Change? yes.

Truly? I don't believe so, and it they do, its rare, like they all of a sudden found Jesus or something.

The way I look at it, in the context of cheating, one does not desire someone else, love the sex, the feeling of being with someone different, or whatever thrill they got out of it .,........and then all of a sudden say to themselves, "I don't want that at all anymore".

Can they change and strive to lead a better life? Sure, but I don't believe for one second that the majority of people that do will not look back on what they did with a small amount of fondness or pining for that excitement they felt.


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Can they change and strive to lead a better life? *Sure, but I don't believe for one second that the majority of people that do will not look back on what they did with a small amount of fondness or pining for that excitement they felt.*


:iagree: All of the quote above and especially the bold. This is a big reason why I can't do R, regardless how great WW is about it.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Can people "truly" change? Change? yes.
> 
> Truly? I don't believe so, and it they do, its rare, like they all of a sudden found Jesus or something.
> 
> ...


I think people change, at least they change their behaviour first. Sometimes you desire something, but once you see the price tag, you'll refrain. 

I think that's what many waywards suddenly realize - their "a little bit on the side" had huge consequences they didn't initially consider, to their partners, maybe their kids and especially to them selves and the life they live. 

They may still desire the extra thrill, somewhere, sometimes, but it's not worth the damage. A simple cost/benefit analysis, I believe that's the case for my wife at least.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I changed from a young man to a middle aged one, for my next trick I'll be an old man


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> I changed from a young man to a middle aged one, for my next trick I'll be an old man


And with these great transformations comes change in beliefs... that middle age is better than young.... and that middle age is better than old :-D


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

My Grandfather, a 4 year vet of the trenches in the First, lifelong school teacher - principal and general terror-with-cane to any and all miscreants thereafter, always said that you could never tell how a kid was gonna turn out until they were at least 50 or 60.

Going by that take, I guess it`s a matter of how long you`re willing to wait until you`re sure you have your answer.


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