# Can any Wayward Spouses answer this?



## elph (Apr 2, 2011)

I dont know if they would hang out in this forum section, but ill give it a shot anyway.

My therapist has said, based off of all the info ive given her on my situation, and the fact shes seen about 2000 cases where infidelity is the theme or problem, that my wife and the OM will eventually end up hating each other.

her conjecture is that of the 2000 cases, none survived to form a real relationship. and based off the fact that my wife and OM are coworkers, there will be no clean break or lingering feelings that may resurface.

so my question for the Wayward Spouses who have gone back to the marriage, or even the ones who didnt,

*What do you feel for/about your affair partner now?*

im curious to see what the reactions are, and maybe help gauge how it may turn out if my wife gets to that point. 

thanks for your replies.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

My XBIL cheated (now divorced). He HATES his affair partner with a passion 2 years later. They are still together only because he has nowhere else to go (they live together). Sucks to be him but his life is miserable.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I was not married, but i lived with my daughter's father for 2.5 years.

I left him for a mutual friend (I do regret not being mature about it), and never looked back....but my ex was extremely emotionally/verbally abusive.

The man I left him for was and is amazing. Before I met my husband, he was the great love of my life. My feelings for my husband went beyond that and that was what I waited for as I didn't get serious with anyone in about 6 years after me and that man broke up.

He's a good guy now. Doing well for himself. I don't regret it.

Probably not what you want to hear...and not every situation is the same. The man I left for was a friend who turned best friend because of situational stuff for FOUR YEARS before anything happened or I even noticed it.

(This is why now i'm very suspicious of people, i think...lol...I haven't done this since and would never do it again. Yes, I can say "never". Lesson learned. It caused so much heartache all around.)


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I left my marriage in Feb of this year after my brief affair ended; about 3 months after, to be more precise. I continued to talk to my affair partner after our affair ended, and still consider her a friend. We're no longer in as regular of contact, as she's moved in with someone else, and I have no desire to disrupt that relationship.

I definitely have no "hate" for her, and wish her much happiness. And she definitely has no blame for my decision to have an affair; that is all on me.

I also know personally two couples who began their relationships as affairs, and both of them seem to be happy thriving couples years later. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Here goes. When my EA blew up I was an emotional wreck. I wanted my EA to end because I knew I loved my wife and wanted to be married to her, but extricating myself emotionally from the affair was probably the hardest thing I've ever done. I had no illusions that my AP loved me more than my wife, was my soul mate, understood me better or any of the other stuff you hear waywards say. She and I connected really well, and she filled a need I didn't even know I had. Despite that it took over seven months to really get her out of my mind. I've been asked a lot if I loved her (we told each other ILY). I really twisted my head trying to answer that and finally reached the conclusion that once I realized that I truly loved my wife and wanted to be married to her the answer didn't matter. In retrospect I now think the answer is no, I couldn't love someone who I hadn't spoken to in 22 years and had a 7 week EA with; but it damn sure felt like it at the time. Did I have feelings for my AP - yes. Do I still - no. I wish her well and I hope she has a great life - without me. I also feel sorry for her because her marriage is not good and I suspect will fail. I don't hate her - but my wife wishes I did. I do still think about her a lot but it's always in conjunction with thinking about the whole affair, I can't totally separate them. I still think about the affair itself every day and suspect I will for some time. I think of it this way. I traded a piece of my soul for that affair, when the affair ended I was left with a piece of my soul torn out and missing - that hurts and takes time to heal. As time heals it I think about the whole thing less and less - thankfully.

That's me. I know other waywards on TAM that despise their AP, but still think about them frequently - more than they want to.

Hope that helps answer your question


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

fwiw, a slightly different perspective: When I asked my WW about her feelings toward the OM now, her instant reaction was that she didn't care either way, had literally no feelings. Didn't hate him, didn't have any interest in what or how he was doing now -- just didn't care at all. Best answer there could have been, I think. If she hated him for what "he did", then she wouldn't be owning what she did, and 'hate' is too emotionally charged with caring one way or the other for my own taste...


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

2xloser said:


> fwiw, a slightly different perspective: When I asked my WW about her feelings toward the OM now, her instant reaction was that she didn't care either way, had literally no feelings. Didn't hate him, didn't have any interest in what or how he was doing now -- just didn't care at all. Best answer there could have been, I think. If she hated him for what "he did", then she wouldn't be owning what she did, and 'hate' is too emotionally charged with caring one way or the other for my own taste...


I agree. This is how I feel about 99% of my exes.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

2xloser said:


> fwiw, a slightly different perspective: When I asked my WW about her feelings toward the OM now, her instant reaction was that she didn't care either way, had literally no feelings. Didn't hate him, didn't have any interest in what or how he was doing now -- just didn't care at all. Best answer there could have been, I think. If she hated him for what "he did", then she wouldn't be owning what she did, and 'hate' is too emotionally charged with caring one way or the other for my own taste...


I agree with this to. I don't want to hate my AP - I don't want her to occupy that much of me emotionally.


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## elph (Apr 2, 2011)

well, these are some interesting and varied responses so far.

i guess it depends on how the affair ended as well as what kind of person the AP is.

thanks to the OMX, ive gathered a pretty good picture of him. as well my wife in her IC has been given some red flags by her therapist in concerns with him.

the 3 things that have been batted about by all parties involved have been controlling, manipulative, and passive aggressive.

and ive seen all three qualities in their text conversations. i see my wife using words shes never used before and being influenced by him. terms like "controlling". or "im my own person". or "being punished"

im also thinking like mommy22 said. if it gets to that level, my wife will not only look at the affair partner, but the whole affair with utter disdain. because its had an obvious affect on her mom and aunt and cousin. and her son. if/when she wakes up and realizes the damage its done, i dont think there could be nothing but disgust. just because of how everybody is affected...



as for those who came out a little more positive, were there kids involved? or other family memebers or influences?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I had a daughter but she didn't know what was going on and her dad was in her life 1/2 the week until this year (for 10 years) when he decided being a musician and doing drugs was more important.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Wife and I have two children 1 month and 7 years at the time, we're both very close to both our families. My AP had two kids 4 and 10 I think at the time.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

We've been on both sides of the coin, here.

When my W and I first started seeing one another, I was (unbeknownst to me) the OM. Although we'd known each other for a while through work, I was under the impression that she and her BF had split up. In fact, I didn't know about that aspect until a couple of years into our marriage. It just never came up because we were both under the mistaken impression that we were on the same page about our knowledge...I had no reason to believe they weren't split up, and she thought I knew they hadn't been. We've been together 11 years, married almost 10.

Now, I won't pretend that it's all been rosy during that time. She's had EA's and a PA, all of which has come to a head in roughly the past year, with her making a commitment to stay with me and put forth what is undoubtedly a major effort to change a lifetime of ingrained learned behavior on her part.

So, with one of her AP's - me - she has chosen to build a life.

The most recent - the PA partner - does elicit strong negative feelings from her. Not because she doesn't own what she did, but because all three of us work together. Seeing him every day is a reminder to her of what she did that almost destroyed us...it reminds her of the bad choices she made that have hurt me and left me hurt and emotionally scarred. And, as she works to change her behavior, his presence can also serve as a temptation to slide back into old behavior habits when having a rough day...so she let's herself feel the anger towards him as a means of countering that. (Some may ask why she doesn't find another job...frankly, we figured he'd be fired by now, thanks to the lousy job he does. As it is, he's apparently teetering on a razor's edge and working himself right out of the job. Meanwhile, management is quite fond of both me and W.)

So there's our story...probably not helpful at all, under the circumstances. ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cisco7931 (May 2, 2011)

Heres another perspective: from the other forums here, youll know that im separated from my W for a little over three months. The woman i had a EA and PA with on my first teo years of marriage and I are now strong companions. She has major issues with her H (yes she is married to and nk, i'm not proud posting this here). We had a good time whike our relationship lasted a few years ago. Now that i am separated, we see each other regularly. We laugh, we talk about our kids, our spouses, our families. Pretty much enjoying each others company. 

She was the one who called it quits years ago. Did i love her? Yes. Did i hate her when she left me? No. Did i think about her after our R was over? A lot. 

So i guess my point here is,which i am sure you know by reading the other responses here, it greatly depends on the "quality" of the affair. If it was more cpmplicated than the current marriage, then most likely it will turn into disgust (guilt may play a big role here). But if it was a extramarital affair that was more beautiful than he marriage, then you will look bqck with appreciation towards the OW/OM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph (Apr 2, 2011)

grayson,

actually quite helpful. because my wife works with the OM. he however does a good job at his work. and its my wifes poor boundaries that allowed this. so it could be a glimpse into what ever defensive measures she may put into place. that said, i heard he put in fro a transfer to a different store. but that could take 3-18 mos.

but heres the other kicker for us. 

on exposure day, i sent a letter to HR. so techincally they have a file on him. if she ever makes a letter of no contact. guess whos getting a copy of that letter. 


thanks for the reply


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## elph (Apr 2, 2011)

cisco7931 said:


> Heres another perspective: from the other forums here, youll know that im separated from my W for a little over three months. The woman i had a EA and PA with on my first teo years of marriage and I are now strong companions. She has major issues with her H (yes she is married to and nk, i'm not proud posting this here). We had a good time whike our relationship lasted a few years ago. Now that i am separated, we see each other regularly. We laugh, we talk about our kids, our spouses, our families. Pretty much enjoying each others company.
> 
> She was the one who called it quits years ago. Did i love her? Yes. Did i hate her when she left me? No. Did i think about her after our R was over? A lot.
> 
> ...




very interesting, and true enough. 

the comparison of H/W to the AP is always an interesting topic. 

looking at my wifes affair, i see then get into fights already. like ours, but the way he handles it is far worse. pity seems to be his big weapon.

i can honestly say that the OM cant compare to me or my marriage. esp now that ive woken up to the issues i mayve had. 


what say you Wayward spouses. not only about how youfeel about your ex AP. but how did the AP compare to your spouse?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Statistically speaking affairs have only a 1 in 10 chance of turning into a long term relationship. Only 1 in 10 of those turn into a long term marriage. That translates into 1 out of 100 affairs turn into a long term marriage. Some one else posted the statistic that 97% of the marriages of cheaters fail which is nearly the exact same figure. Another statistic I ran across the other day said that 80% of couples that divorced over infidelity regretted that decision and wished they had stuck it out.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Chapparal,

Where did you read the stasts about the couples wishing they had stuck it out ? Would love to see it. 

~sammy


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Sammy3

I'm pretty sure that was a quote from a marriage counselor on a tv series called Unfaithful ....Its a series about infidelity that the couples always reconcile. OWN network on Mon or Tues I believe.


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## upset/confused (Jul 26, 2011)

sammy3 said:


> Chapparal,
> 
> Where did you read the stasts about the couples wishing they had stuck it out ? Would love to see it.
> 
> ~sammy


It is in the book "The Divorce Remedy" by Michele Weiner Davis.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Cisco it reads like you have changed the word affair to companions , she is still married, does her husband approve of and support her "companionship" with you ? Does he know you were having sex with his wife albeit many years ago? Or is she still praticing deceit?

If he knows, supports and approves of all this then hey presto you are in a good place somehow I don't think many BS will support any form of ongoing contact between affair people. In your case the PA has simply moved to a form of EA.

The cynic in me says she has problems with her husband, sure she does , waywards tend to have problems with their spouses , if you were completely and permanently out of the picture and she works to solve the problems you will find she will no longer complain about him.

Btw. Thanks for posting it does help having a view from the OM's side
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

"According to CDC's National Center for Health Statistics, approximately:

3,000 couples in the U.S. get divorced each day - well over 1 million per year;
20-25% of these people are divorcing for the second or third time;
50% of all divorcing couples have children under the age of 18; 
12 million U.S. families were headed by a single parent during 2000; 
1 out of 3 U.S. children do not live with both parents;
17% of all children in the U.S. will suffer a divorce this year;
Second marriages will end 23% sooner than first marriages; and
Third marriages will end 43% sooner than first marriages.

As well, it is scientifically supported that children of divorced parents suffer a higher than average divorce rate as adults - divorce is a legacy that is passed down from one generation to the next.

These public divorce statistics are alarming, but most people don't have access to follow-up statistics concerning a divorce after the affair of one partner:

80% of couples who divorce as the result of an affair later regret their decision to divorce.*

And the statistics for affair-born relationships are even more extreme: 

Fewer than 10% of all extramarital affair relationships will actually result in a marriage between
the two affair partners;* and

If an affair-born relationship does result in a marriage, 3 out of 4 of those couples can expect their new

marriage to also end in divorce.* 

What does this mean?

It means that for every 100 extramarital relationships - less than 10 of the unfaithful spouses will actually marry his or her affair partner. If the affair partners do marry, 75% of those marriages will also end in divorce - which means that at best, less than 3 out of every 100 affair born relationships will result in a marriage that does not end in divorce! (And this doesn't take into account marital separation, only legal divorce, which brings the success rate down from the already generous but alarmingly low 2.5%!) 

*Staheli, Lana, Affair-Proof Your Marriage: Understanding, Preventing and Surviving An Affair. New York, NY: HarperCollins, 1995. & Vaughan, Peggy, The Monogamy Myth. New York, NY: Newmarket Press, 1989."





"To download "Infidelity Crisis: How to Gain Forgiveness and Respect
After Your Affair" by Katie Coston in an instant pdf format click here."

Also just google infidelity statistics, sobering isn't the word for it. Supposedly infidelity has tripled since 97 so a lot of stats are out dated.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

cisco7931 said:


> if it was a extramarital affair that was more beautiful than he marriage, then you will look bqck with appreciation towards the OW/OM.


I would think in the eyes of the WS, most affairs are "more beautiful than the marriage" since they're in the fog, and not comparing apples to apples?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

My feelings about OM are a lot of the ways Mommy describes the OM in her case. 

I don't wish him ill, at all, and we did have nice times together, but it's his representation that blurs everything for me. It's what he signifies, means, represents that makes me feel ill, upset, sad, hurt. Initially I didn't feel this way but over time, more and more, it's how I feel. He will always remind me of a time I wish never happened, a decision I wish I never made, and to date, is laced with my biggest regret in life . I lost some of my integrity with him and for that I will always feel sorry and sad. Sigma said it well when he said he traded a piece of his soul when he had his EA. I ended contact on my own and came clean with my now ex-husband and if only I could have reached out to myself two yeras ago... and shaken the hell out of myself and said, "HEY, STOP, this is going to haunt you forever!", oh man...what I wouldn't give to be able to go back and change the hands of time, to change everything really. 

My marriage may not have survived anyway. We had a lot of problems as-is, but it's the one thing I wish I could have a do-over on. And I can't. 

So yeah, two years now past now, and not a single day goes by where I don't regret it, him, what happened, etc. 
I've been doing IC for a long time to help with my guilt/awful feelings but I find that for me, that feeling has never gone away. I have never forgiven myself and I don't think I ever will. It's actually really f-cked up. Sometimes I wake up and I feel like, Why did I do that? I hate myself for it. 

It. Was. Not. Worth. It.


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

I quote these sometimes so I thought I'd add references.



chapparal said:


> Some one else posted the statistic that 97% of the marriages of cheaters fail which is nearly the exact same figure.


I think this is where the 97% comes from:
Infidelity Statistics, Cheating Spouse Statistics - WomanSavers

*A lesser known fact is that those who divorce rarely marry the person with whom they are having the affair. For example, Dr. Jan Halper’s study of successful men (executives, entrepreneurs, professionals) found that very few men who have affairs divorce their wife and marry their lovers. Only 3 percent of the 4,100 successful men surveyed eventually married their lovers.*

Also:
_*Frank Pittman has found that the divorce rate among those who married their lovers was 75 percent. The reasons for the high divorce rate include: intervention of reality, guilt, expectations, a general distrust of marriage, and a distrust of the affairee.*_



> Another statistic I ran across the other day said that 80% of couples that divorced over infidelity regretted that decision and wished they had stuck it out.


www.edivorcepapers.com/marriage-and-divorce/marriage-and-divorce-facts.html

_*Amongst those who get divorced during an affair, 80 percent regret their decision of divorce *_

I believe this came from a survey Cosmo did back in the 70's where they ask women 2 years after getting a divorce if they regretted it. 80% said they wished they had stayed which made Cosmo rethink it's "get out the minute you are unhappy" attitude towards marriage.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

chapparal said:


> Statistically speaking affairs have only a 1 in 10 chance of turning into a long term relationship. Only 1 in 10 of those turn into a long term marriage. That translates into 1 out of 100 affairs turn into a long term marriage. Some one else posted the statistic that 97% of the marriages of cheaters fail which is nearly the exact same figure. Another statistic I ran across the other day said that 80% of couples that divorced over infidelity regretted that decision and wished they had stuck it out.


I don't buy these stats. I had read many people talk about their divorces and how they are "happier" afterwards. Much more than just 20%. As far as 1 in 10 affairs turning LTR--not sure I believe that either. There are a lot of relationship sthat start from cheating that seem to survive. I don't know what that # is and it wouldn't seem they'd survive, but actually, some do. One wouldn't they they would but it happens.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Aw, Jellybeans  I remember after my EA/PA I had the worst guilt for years. It took about 5 years to begin to forgive myself.

It's been 10 years now and I can look back at him and that situation fondly. I don't know if you will ever do that, but just know that it can and most likely will get better with time.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Gosh, I sure hope so. It seems that day will never come for me.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Statistics should not be taken as gospel. What they do offer is a bigger picture (the forest) rather than the anecdotal evidence(trees) of reality.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

elph said:


> grayson,
> 
> actually quite helpful. because my wife works with the OM. he however does a good job at his work. and its my wifes poor boundaries that allowed this. so it could be a glimpse into what ever defensive measures she may put into place. that said, i heard he put in fro a transfer to a different store. but that could take 3-18 mos.
> 
> ...


Glad to help, elph.

While it may not apply in your situation, my wife has identified behaviors in herself that match the criteria for sex and love addiction. Whether she truly has such an addiction or not (she feels she does), she's chosen to approach modifying her behavior through a sex and love addicts anonymous program. It's been helping her recognize those behaviors more easily and train herself with different ways to respond to situations that would normally have triggered her previous inappropriate behavior, and provided her with a like-minded support system if she needs that extra help.

Might be something worth looking into, even if only as a general roadmap of how to proceed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph (Apr 2, 2011)

thanks for the idea grayson,

actually my therapist thinks she suffers from a low grade narcissistic personality disorder. and i could see that. since our first fight 17 years ago, i remember saying to her she was mad because she doesnt get what she wants how she wants when she wants it....i used to think she was just spoiled.

ive learned to work around this over the years to make it actually a gift not a curse...but somebody else comes n and mucks it up...funny thing is im pretty sure he has no idea what hes in for.


tho your posts brings up something her mom once said...its possible shes in love with being in love, though shes never acted on it..which means up until recently i guess i was doing a good job...but i think my wife is just a bit immature and has unrealistic expectations of love and marriage...something a little mature would go a long way to fixing...

but i appreciate the input.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

sorry Im late for the party

My wife actually uses the word "hate" when we talk about the OM. Sometimes I wonder if she hates him more than I do. She says she felt used and taken advantage of when she was in a bad spot emotionally, while that sounds like blame shifting she most certainly has hated herself for her actions and her part in the affair. But she is someone who decided that staying with me and working on our marriage was worth much more so I don't know if this is the answer you are looking for.

However- my father has been married to his former mistress for 16 years now this month, so there's that


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## elph (Apr 2, 2011)

never late for the party,

there always maybe somebody wondering the same thing...


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

you can actually see the look of disgust on her face when his name is mentioned (we're at the point now that we don't bring it up much since it has been 2 years now but it surfaces every now and again)

now my father somehow defied the odds I guess- his wife though still hasn't fit in with me and my brother and my Dad's sisters (Mom passed so she isnt around to see it) but Dad has always been a loner type anyways, doesn't have any real friends to speak of.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> now my father somehow defied the odds I guess- his wife though still hasn't fit in with me and my brother and my Dad's sisters


This doesn't surprise me at all.

I don't hate the OM in my situation but I just don't have good feelings when I remember him. It reminds me of all the bad that followed and how much I wish I could erase it all and make it go away. Ick. I bet your wife feels the same way, Almost. Or she could hate him too LOL.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

ArmyofJuan;39135
I believe this came from a survey Cosmo did back in the 70's where they ask women 2 years after getting a divorce if they regretted it. 80% said they wished they had stayed which made Cosmo rethink it's "get out the minute you are unhappy" attitude towards marriage.[/QUOTE said:


> Am I reading this correctly? This information is from the 1970 out of Cosmo magazine?
> 
> 
> ~sammy


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## Craggy456 (Feb 22, 2011)

My stbxh is starting up with the OW again. *evil grin* but I'm about to blow the lid off that one and lay it all out for her H


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

You should do that today, Craggy.


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## Craggy456 (Feb 22, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> You should do that today, Craggy.


H goes out of town again next week so I don't have to sneak around him to do it. Naturally, when it does go down, the H will burn my ass and get all PO'd "Why can't you leave her alone??" type sh*t but what do I care? I'm gonna f*ck 'em all up!


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

My OW (was an EA, broke up with my wife, then it turned physical) was one of the best friends I've ever had in my life. If she were still a part of my life, she would be my best friend. I miss her... a lot. But I love my wife (even though we'll be divorced in less than a week) and want to be with her more, so OW is no longer a part of my life and never will be again as long as there is any remote chance of reconciliation with my wife. 

It's one of those situations where I wish my wife could be inside my head for just a few minutes, to understand how much I'm sorry and how much I'm willingly giving up in order to work things out with her.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

jason,

Was the affair to much for your wife to overcome? How long ago did all this happen?

~sammy


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

No, it was the fact that it took me a couple months to figure out why I loved my wife and why I wanted to be with her and that that was the right thing for me. She felt during that time that she wasn't important to me, or that I didn't love her enough. That time drove her so far away from me that now she doesn't want to come back.

She agreed that had I had a traditional affair and hid it from her, then broke it off and told her, it would have been easier for us to work it out because then she'd have felt like we both wanted it. Because I did everything out in the open and broke things off with her, trying to do what I thought I needed to with some integrity, it actually turned out worse for me. Go figure.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Yeap, that is understandable . So you were the wayward? and so now you are living your consequences ?


~sammy


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Had EA, broke up with wife, went to counseling, ended it with OW, wife says too late.

I understand, but at the same time, I'm amazed. If the roles were reversed, I do not believe I would be saying what she is saying. It feels like a betrayal to ME, oddly enough, especially given that wife freely admits she did some things wrong that contributed to all the problems.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Might be because you made it a PA before you realized your error. Like I said before, I am not one to judge by any means. It seems though as you are trying to pawn off your actions on your W. She may have made mistakes but, YOU chose to cheat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

I'm sure that has something to do with it. It just kills me that NOT hiding it from her and lying about it seems like it was the WRONG thing to do. How the heck does that work? Other people do that and work things out. I try to at least be honest and "I'm" the one that ends up divorced. WTF?


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Maybe she felt like you were flaunting it in her face and that can be worse. She offered counseling, you refused and then had sex with OW.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

jason29927 said:


> Had EA, broke up with wife, went to counseling, ended it with OW, wife says too late.
> 
> I understand, but at the same time, I'm amazed. If the roles were reversed, I do not believe I would be saying what she is saying. It feels like a betrayal to ME, oddly enough, especially given that wife freely admits she did some things wrong that contributed to all the problems.


Say what? Unless she cheats on you someday the same way, you will never know what it feels like. 

To think she should forgive you and want you back is incredibly presumptous, IMO.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

jason29927 said:


> I'm sure that has something to do with it. It just kills me that NOT hiding it from her and lying about it seems like it was the WRONG thing to do. How the heck does that work? Other people do that and work things out. I try to at least be honest and "I'm" the one that ends up divorced. WTF?


Not everyone "works things out." Some people think cheating is a dealbreaker. It seems your wife falls in that category. And that is her choice to make.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Pidge, maybe that's the case.

Jelly, it just hurts that she won't even attempt counseling. I was "sure" about how I felt too... until 6 weeks of counseling went by.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Oh I have no doubt it hurts you. It's just that you need to realize not every betrayed spouse wants to reconcile. 

Sounds like it was a hard lesson you learned that came at the price of your marriage.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

The EA happened for a reason. We were not close for a reason. I was unable to talk to her for a reason. It doesn't make it right, but on the spectrum of EA's, mine was about as far towards excusable as it gets. I started counseling 2 weeks after I broke things off with her and as soon as I understood everything, I took absolutely every step possible to get back on a good path. 

It just hurts to see other people do things that are so much worse... and they get a chance. And I don't.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

jason29927 said:


> Pidge, maybe that's the case.
> 
> Jelly, it just hurts that she won't even attempt counseling. I was "sure" about how I felt too... until 6 weeks of counseling went by.


To be fair, you stated she did offer counseling and you refused. Now she is refusing your offer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

I know. I still hope that, in time, maybe she will change her mind about that. Maybe the divorce will help things settle for her. She is "sure" right now that there is no chance of us working things out. But I was also "sure" that we just didn't belong together and couldn't fix the problem.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Unfortunately she is not you and her thinking is way different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Exactly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mommy2 (Oct 27, 2009)

I don't know if I can use the word "hate" but I know that whenever anything is brought up about the OW my H has an utter look of disgust on his face. Seems absolutely disgusted by her. I wondered if it was for my benefit - to show disdain for her as to not hurt me anymore or because as Mommy22 said - it reminds him of a time he wishes to forget. When he let me down and regrets it horribly. 

Not sure if it's partly because she was a friend, and once he decided he wanted our marriage to work - he was appalled and disgusted by what SHE put me through also. (during A he was in the "fog") Also, w/out going into details, I am forced to see her somewhat regularly and he is very upset that she continues that. He has removed himself from all situations where he would see her H, but she didnt and continues to. Not sure if that is part jealousy on his part but it doesn't seem like way. He told me he thinks it's very disrespectful to me, etc. 

So, not sure if that helps or not. It will be 2 yrs this October since D-day. We have been at one function (last winter) where both my H and I & the OW/H were there. We stayed at one end of room & they at other. My H never even looked her direction.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Pidge, your point is taken but I'm still going to hope. I know she's still upset and hurt. I don't know what's going to happen months from now, though.


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## elph (Apr 2, 2011)

Jason, I hope it works out for you. If you are truly remorseful and really want to make it work. 

I also hope you realize that there are few things on earth as painful as the betrayal of an affair. I don't know about women but the only thing I can personally think of as worse would be the loss of my son. An affair destroys ones complete sense of reality in terms of live amd how they thought of themselves, their spouse and their relationship. 

And it was until this weekend I could finally put my finger on what really bothered me the most about that. From a non personnel stand point. 

It wasn't the vanquishing of my confidence or sense of self. It want how she viewed me. Or how I compared to the OM. 

It was the loss of innocence. The destruction of the fantasy/ fairytale world that I created on how life and marriage is. 
I think even guys have a mindset of marriage similar to women on how it's supposed to be a certain way. For me it's certainly true. ESP since we were high school sweethearts. And that can never be regained no matter what we do. It's the mental death of the relationship and all it means. That the world of love conquers all and having that belief that sonlong as you love enough that you can weather any storm 

All that is shattered. Marriage and the world is not perfect. The idea if the world would crumble around you and so long as you have each other your fine is gone

Now it's marriage 2.0. 

And I'll tell you this. 

Take the smallest baby steps. You have to redevelop trust and love in very small increments to get her to even think about it. It will take all the effort you can. And if it's worth it you may EARN your self another chance. And you can try to rebuild a new fairytale. But it'll be completely different. Gone will be the fantasy bull crap. But in it's place, reality. And a real mature relationship too. One that will last you your years. But it'll take supreme effort. 

Again I wish you the best. 


Anybody else for thoughts or comparisons of the AP?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> *My OW (was an EA, broke up with my wife, then it turned physical) was one of the best friends I've ever had in my life. If she were still a part of my life, she would be my best friend. I miss her... a lot.* But I love my wife (even though we'll be divorced in less than a week) and want to be with her more, so OW is no longer a part of my life and never will be again as long as there is any remote chance of reconciliation with my wife.
> 
> It's one of those situations where I wish my wife could be inside my head for just a few minutes, to understand how much I'm sorry and how much I'm willingly giving up in order to work things out with her.


What I bolded may be the reason why your wife won't reconcile with you. You had already allowed your EA to get to the point where you considered the OW your best friend. So much so, you broke up with your wife. You chose the OW over your wife. Plus, you still think of the OW as your best friend.

You picked the OW over your wife. On d-day, when an affair gets discovered, many cheaters must choose between their affair partner or their spouse. My H picked me. You were in an EA, told your wife (d-day), then picked the OW. How is that better?

My H never wanted a divorce or the OW over me. Yes he entertained the fantasy of "what life might be like with the OW" and enjoyed the escape. But, whenever he tried to imagine leaving me, it was too painful to consider. So, instead he became a cake eater. He compartmentalized the affair, enjoyed the fantasy, but kept me in the process. Sure it's the selfish way out, but at least he was selfish enough to want me too. Dumping me would've still been terribly selfish, but even more hurtful.

My H and I are in R, but if he had broken up with me, picked her over me.... I can't imagine going through all of that, then trying to R. I'd already be well on my way living a life without him, so taking him back wouldn't be an option I'd want to consider.

Even cheaters that go underground, wanting to keep their "drug" (the affair), still want to keep their spouse. Yes it's horribly selfish, but there's something to be said for still being wanted. You might say the cheater is picking the EA or PA over their spouse, but they're putting their own needs first. 

My H's OW wanted him to leave me, he wouldn't. She wasn't important enough to him. He didn't want to loose me. You were willing to risk loosing your wife by choosing to continue the affair openly. You were still married when you had sex with the OW. You still broke your vows. Seems like you're trying to make what you did sound better than what other cheaters do. In my opinion, it's not. My H had sex with the OW, but he never wanted me to know. Slimeball, yes. But he didn't want to hurt me and hoped I'd never know. You broke up with your wife, continued your affair, and even escalated it knowing your wife would know. Sorry, I don't see that as any better.

Your wife feels you tossed her aside. You didn't want her and even though you want her now, you still have strong feelings for the OW. That kind of stuff isn't going to be easy to get over. I'm not saying you should give up hope, but I think you should try harder to understand why your wife doesn't want you back. Once you understand what she went through was equally, if not more painful, than other betrayed spouses d-days.... maybe then she'll be more willing to consider R. Right now all she'll see is blameshifting, justification, and entitlement.

Good luck and keep your ears open, absorbing any information and advice can only help your cause.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

elph,

You are right about the fairy tale thing. I've described it in exactly those words to my therapist. I ruined her fairy tale and in many ways, my own. I AM truly remorseful and I would do anything at this point to work on things, but she's just not ready and maybe never will be. Because of how she's dealt with things in the past, I'm not optimistic. But how she reacts to it is her decision.

Saffron,

That is exactly how she felt, and I'm sure she's extremely skeptical of what I tell her now. I made that decision because in a month, I was able to feel closer with my friend than I ever had with my wife. I thought at that point that our marriage was hopeless because it was something we could never have or would struggle so much with forever.

I still miss the OW, but I would hope that me cutting off contact with her DESPITE that shows how serious I am about reconciling. At one point, before the break-up, my wife asked, "So is X like your new best friend?" and I said, "Yeah, that's a good way to describe it." I always wanted my wife to be that, but she never would, and never asked the question, "Why am I not your best friend?" Doesn't excuse the mistakes I made, but that's the reason it all happened that way. I had 7 years of evidence that my wife was not my best friend, didn't try to be, and didn't fight to be when she knew there was a problem. So I thought it was hopeless. 

I understand what you're saying. It is hard for me to understand. It seems that doing things out in the open was far worse than keeping it a secret. I handled it that way so that there was no deception. I knew it was hurtful, but at least it was honest. I guess it's one of those things that's different between men and women? I feel like if the roles were reversed and she kept it a secret, I could never trust her again to be honest. I was never dishonest.

I'm trying to do all I can now. I've been going to counseling consistently, cut off all contact with the OW, apologized for everything, etc. Is there anything else I can do?


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

One more point to clarify. Because I didn't understand my feelings for my wife, I didn't trust my desire to want to stay with her. I knew I loved her, but I didn't understand why, specifically, I loved HER. Meaning what I got from our relationship that I couldn't get from another relationship. It took counseling for me to get to the point where I understand it.

She felt like she wasn't worth it to me. But I stayed away because I knew I couldn't risk going back to her unless I was 100% sure, and it took time for me to figure that out. I couldn't risk hurting her again BECAUSE I love her that much. Now that I understand this so much more, I CAN tell her I want to work things out with 100% certainty and without the fear of hurting her that way again.

I know she doesn't see it that way, and maybe most women wouldn't understand that, but it's the truth.

*edit - I'll put it this way. My head said one thing, my heart said another, and I listened to my head. Now, after counseling, they both say the same thing.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

elph said:


> An affair destroys ones complete sense of reality in terms of live amd how they thought of themselves, their spouse and their relationship.
> 
> It wasn't the vanquishing of my confidence or sense of self. It want how she viewed me. Or how I compared to the OM.
> 
> ...


Excellent post, Elph. That is exactly what it is like. 

I was on both sides of the betrayal in my marriage (with both of us cheating) and yeah, it sucks. No matter how you slice it, infdelity is a motherf-cker that totally sends you on at tailspin and forever changes the relationship's dynamic forever.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I agree with Saffron about your wife, Jason. 

The reason she doesn't want you back is because you picked OW over her. That is a hard pill to swallow.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

I understand that. 

We have talked in the past about how a lot of our communications problems stem from the fact that I react logically about something, then the emotions hit later, while she reacts emotionally, and the logic hits later. That's just how our personalities work and this situation is a prime example. I reacted logically, then the emotions hit, and I sought help. She reacted emotionally (and still is) and it will be a while before the logic hits for her. 

Hopefully she will remember our conversations about that issue and realize that my picking the OW was because I listened to my head, not my heart, and that that was typical for me and is an issue I'm addressing through counseling.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> My OW (was an EA, broke up with my wife, then it turned physical) was one of the best friends I've ever had in my life. If she were still a part of my life, she would be my best friend. I miss her... a lot. But I love my wife (even though we'll be divorced in less than a week) and want to be with her more, so OW is no longer a part of my life and never will be again as long as there is any remote chance of reconciliation with my wife.
> 
> It's one of those situations where I wish my wife could be inside my head for just a few minutes, to understand how much I'm sorry and how much I'm willingly giving up in order to work things out with her.


How does someone "break up" with his wife? It's called a divorce not a break up. Also, do you really want your wife inside your head? Having to realize that this ow was your soul mate and how much you gave up to go back to plan b? Be careful what you wish for. 
It sounds like you are making quite a few excuses and blaming her for your choice to cheat. Her pain must be staggering and likely compounded by your saying that if she would have been your best friend, this wouldn't have happened. Cheating is a choice and you need to 100% own that.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

This thread got highjacked.

Back on thread topic: the affair partner may seem to provide a lot of fun and light feelings because that is what they are--a fantasy. The relationship is not based in reality.


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

But a BS will always see the affair and the affair partner as reality.....because we were not part of the fantasy.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

I understand what you're saying Jason, but your EA was still dishonest and a betrayal. If your wife was not listening to your needs, you should've separated before the OW became your best friend, before there was even an OW. That would've been being honest, showing that the marriage was in such a state you preferred to be single. Perhaps it would've woken her up and snapped her to attention. Instead you decided to choose someone else over your wife, you did not choose to be single over your wife.

You doubted if you wanted to be with your wife 100%, so you thought it was more logical to see where it would go with the OW first. Were you 100% sure of the OW? If you were, then why would you leave her now? If not, then you should've given your wife the benefit of the doubt and picked her first. Trying to make your marriage work, even with doubt, is being more compassionate. To say you were trying to spare your wife by being 100% sure of her, sounds like justiciation to have an affair and fog talk. Your honesty was in showing your wife that you wanted the OW more.

Given your argument, your wife shouldn't take you back or work on your marriage until she is 100% sure she wants you. But how can she be 100% she wants you without working on the marriage? If you had doubt in your marriage, you owed your wife the chance to ease that doubt. You did not give her that chance, so now she's not giving you one.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but I'm trying help you see why your wife is not considering R. You still sound like you're justifying and blameshifting the affair, trying to make your actions sound noble when in fact they were selfish. You wanted to pursue the OW and not feel guilty, so you told your wife. The lack of guilt and remorse, thinking what you did was right, is what probably makes an R difficult for her to consider. Until you see things in her POV, I doubt she'll take you back.

Is this thread hijacking? Hopefully it's still helpful and giving both DS and LS something to think about.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> How does someone "break up" with his wife? It's called a divorce not a break up. Also, do you really want your wife inside your head? Having to realize that this ow was your soul mate and how much you gave up to go back to plan b? Be careful what you wish for.
> It sounds like you are making quite a few excuses and blaming her for your choice to cheat. Her pain must be staggering and likely compounded by your saying that if she would have been your best friend, this wouldn't have happened. Cheating is a choice and you need to 100% own that.


Yes, I want my wife inside my head. Of course I do. I want her to understand. I want to be inside her head, too, to understand what she thinks and feels.

I've said multiple times that when I give the reasons for what happened, I'm not excusing it. I should have been strong enough to do things differently and I wasn't. Those mistakes are all mine.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> I understand what you're saying Jason, but your EA was still dishonest and a betrayal. If your wife was not listening to your needs, you should've separated before the OW became your best friend, before there was even an OW. That would've been being honest, showing that the marriage was in such a state you preferred to be single. Perhaps it would've woken her up and snapped her to attention. Instead you decided to choose someone else over your wife, you did not choose to be single over your wife.


That is one reason I decided to start counseling and one issue I am addressing in counseling. I have my own issues too.



> You doubted if you wanted to be with your wife 100%, so you thought it was more logical to see where it would go with the OW first.


It may sound that way, but that's not true. I wasn't "trying out" something else with the OW. Me changing my mind about things was not a result of having a fantasy about the OW that disappeared. It was a result of finally understanding my feelings for my wife. That's why even after we're divorced, I'm not going to re-establish contact with the OW.



> Given your argument, your wife shouldn't take you back or work on your marriage until she is 100% sure she wants you. But how can she be 100% she wants you without working on the marriage? If you had doubt in your marriage, you owed your wife the chance to ease that doubt. You did not give her that chance, so now she's not giving you one.


Me feeling that way was a mistake. If she felt that way, it would also be a mistake, though obviously understandable. When I left her, I did not have any doubt. I had conflict between what I thought and what I felt, but in my head there was no doubt. Obviously that changed and maybe it will for her too in time.



> The lack of guilt and remorse, thinking what you did was right, is what probably makes an R difficult for her to consider. Until you see things in her POV, I doubt she'll take you back.


I am guilty and remorseful, but not about telling her. Going behind her back and being deceitful is a different kind of cheating and I'm not that kind of person. I understand why it would hurt her more that things happened the way they did, but I can't feel guilty for being honest. I was WRONG, but I was honest.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> I am guilty and remorseful, but not about telling her. Going behind her back and being deceitful is a different kind of cheating and I'm not that kind of person. I understand why it would hurt her more that things happened the way they did, but I can't feel guilty for being honest. I was WRONG, but I was honest.


It's still cheating. You needed to figure it out and were honest that you needed to get your head on straight. What your wife is having a problem with is that you didn't need to have sex with the OW to figure it out. Why was that part necessary?

My H was deceitful, but if someone would've said, "Hey, your wife is going to find out and divorce you if you have sex with the OW" he would'nt have done it. He knew it was a possibility, but he really thought I'd never find out. The affair was only a viable option if it remained a fantasy and not based in reality. You wanted the affair even in the face of reality, many DS don't want it once it's no longer an illusion. In the harsh light of day, it becomes unattractive and unappealing.

Trying to tie this back to the thread..... does the perception of the affair as reality/fantasy change how the DS feels about the OW/OM? 

Right now my H has no hard feelings for the OW, but he's realizing more and more that they were both just enjoying a fantasy. If anything he's appalled at his own stupidity, because he believed every web she weaved of the illusion. She constantly told him how she fantazied about him during self gratification. She's a mother of two working full time and married. He sees now that she was most likely lying or embellishing the truth. He did the same, trying to make sure she got her ego stroked too, so he lied or embellished.

Perhaps it's the realization that the affair partner may have played you for a sucker that eventually erodes the DS's perception of them. I doubt my H will ever hate the OW, but now looking at the whole affair logically, his opinion of her has dropped considerably.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Jason, how were you honest? You were married and cheated. Fessing up after the fact isn't honesty, it's guilt. Honesty would have been "I have feelings for someone else" prior to anything happening. 
I sense that you minimise this and I can imagine your wife does as well. If I am misunderstanding you, then forgive me.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Jason, how were you honest? You were married and cheated. Fessing up after the fact isn't honesty, it's guilt. Honesty would have been "I have feelings for someone else" prior to anything happening.
> I sense that you minimise this and I can imagine your wife does as well. If I am misunderstanding you, then forgive me.


You are, and that's ok. There was an EA before me talking with my wife, but I wasn't really honestly aware that that's what it was. I thought we were just becoming great friends. Then we visited OW and her husband one weekend and OW and I thought there was more to it. After that weekend, I spoke to my wife and told her I needed OW in my life. Wife left, then relationship became physical. So yes, I left my wife before the relationship became physical. I thought that was at least being honest and not being a dirtbag liar. I now see why that hurt her even worse, though of course that was not my intention.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> It's still cheating. You needed to figure it out and were honest that you needed to get your head on straight. What your wife is having a problem with is that you didn't need to have sex with the OW to figure it out. Why was that part necessary?


I didn't think at the time there was anything to figure out. I thought wife and I could never be what we should be, so I ended it. Obviously I didn't take the time needed to make a good decision. My biggest mistake was not slowing down long enough to at least try counseling with my wife first to explore the problem.



> You wanted the affair even in the face of reality, many DS don't want it once it's no longer an illusion. In the harsh light of day, it becomes unattractive and unappealing.


In some ways, it still was a fantasy, even the way it happened. However, it was not just a fling and I know that makes it harder on my wife. I think she could have forgiven a purely physical one-night-stand kind of thing. I know it hurts her that I was so emotionally involved with someone else. Part of that hurt is the realization that she was not giving me what I needed in that regard. Not that it makes anything okay, but I think people have a hard time understanding just how far apart the wife and I were and how hard that was for me, especially combined with my own issues.

Neither of our individual problems is all that terrible, but the combination of them was. I'm the one that slipped, but something was going to happen one day if nothing changed. In a lot of ways, we needed a crisis. I just wish I hadn't slipped so far, or that instead of this OW it was something more of a fling that would not have hurt the wife so bad. Anything but this.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> You are, and that's ok. There was an EA before me talking with my wife, but I wasn't really honestly aware that that's what it was. I thought we were just becoming great friends. Then we visited OW and her husband one weekend and OW and I thought there was more to it. After that weekend, I spoke to my wife and told her I needed OW in my life. Wife left, then relationship became physical. So yes, I left my wife before the relationship became physical. I thought that was at least being honest and not being a dirtbag liar. I now see why that hurt her even worse, though of course that was not my intention.


Oh boy! You needed the OW in your life more so than your wife? And then when you wife felt that was unacceptable you took it to the physical level with the OW justifying that you were broken up?
The level of pain your wife feels must be soul crushing. You tossed her aside and let her know you did and now you want her back. Jason, I am sorry but I doubt many could get over that.  I think you need to plan on moving on with your life and leaving your soon to be ex alone. Do you have children?


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Yes, the relationship with the OW provided (I thought at the time) the kind of friendship and connection that I had been missing for YEARS. After 7 years with my wife (2 married), I saw no way we could ever get to that point and that's what I had always wanted so badly. So, in my head, I saw no other way. It would be wrong to continue the relationship with my wife knowing that we could never have that. That was my reasoning.

As time passed, my feelings for the wife were still there, and after going through counseling (which continues), I finally understood that I didn't just want that kind of connection, I wanted it specifically with my wife. I had never understood things that way before.

I realize she may never get over it. At this point I'm just trying to do everything I can to make it possible for us to work if she ever did. Counseling, no contact with OW, etc. 

Thankfully, we don't have children.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> I didn't think at the time there was anything to figure out.  I thought wife and I could never be what we should be, so I ended it. Obviously I didn't take the time needed to make a good decision. My biggest mistake was not slowing down long enough to at least try counseling with my wife first to explore the problem.


I would beg to differ, Jason. Unless you began divorce proceedings, you didn't "end it" with your wife. Let me see if I understand correctly. You were dissatisfied with you marriage. You were invited to counseling by your wife, but declined. You mentally checked out of the marriage, which you seem to classify as "ending it." You had an affair. You felt guilty and fessed up. You wish the OW was still in your life. But, you're nor sure why your wife has an issue with all this and seems to find your infidelity a dealbreaker.





> In some ways, it still was a fantasy, even the way it happened. However, it was not just a fling and I know that makes it harder on my wife. I think she could have forgiven a purely physical one-night-stand kind of thing. I know it hurts her that I was so emotionally involved with someone else. Part of that hurt is the realization that she was not giving me what I needed in that regard. Not that it makes anything okay, but I think people have a hard time understanding just how far apart the wife and I were and how hard that was for me, especially combined with my own issues.


Quite frankly, it doesn't matter "how far apart" you felt from your wife. You didn't feel so far apart from her to divorce and let her pursue her own happiness...you instead chose to pursue your own happiness, while telling her, by refusing her request for counseling, that you didn't care if that gulf between you was ever repaired. If the distance between you was truly so difficult for you, you would have either tried to bridge it, or determined it was hopeless and *truly* ended your marriage. Instead, you chose to let your relationship languish, while you placated yourself by getting some strange.



> Neither of our individual problems is all that terrible, but the combination of them was. I'm the one that slipped, but something was going to happen one day if nothing changed. In a lot of ways, we needed a crisis. I just wish I hadn't slipped so far, or that instead of this OW it was something more of a fling that would not have hurt the wife so bad. Anything but this.


I don't think you quite get it...any "fling" is a betrayal. You didn't need a "crisis"...you needed motivation to work on your marriage. You were unmotivated until you breached your wife's confidence, betrayed her, broke your vow to be faithful, and tried to salve your guilty conscience, only to find that she views such betrayals as unforgivable.

You had a choice...honor or dishonor. You chose the latter. That comes with consequences. To paraphrase the theme to "Barreta," if you couldn't do the time, you shouldn't have done the crime.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> Let me see if I understand correctly. You were dissatisfied with you marriage. You were invited to counseling by your wife, but declined. You mentally checked out of the marriage, which you seem to classify as "ending it." You had an affair. You felt guilty and fessed up. You wish the OW was still in your life. But, you're nor sure why your wife has an issue with all this and seems to find your infidelity a dealbreaker.


Wife and I already decided on divorce before it became physical. I don't wish OW was still in my life. OP asked what we thought of the "others", and that's how I think of her. She's a great person and we had a very strong connection. But what we did was wrong and my wife is more important to me than OW, so I have permanently cut off contact with her.



> If the distance between you was truly so difficult for you, you would have either tried to bridge it, or determined it was hopeless and truly ended your marriage. Instead, you chose to let your relationship languish, while you placated yourself by getting some strange.


I had, over the years, tried to bridge it. I pushed, she pushed back. My issues prevented me from pushing harder and hers prevented her from opening up. I didn't let my relationship vanquish. I told her it was over. OW wasn't "getting some strange". It was real.



> I don't think you quite get it...any "fling" is a betrayal. You didn't need a "crisis"...you needed motivation to work on your marriage. You were unmotivated until you breached your wife's confidence, betrayed her, broke your vow to be faithful, and tried to salve your guilty conscience, only to find that she views such betrayals as unforgivable.
> 
> You had a choice...honor or dishonor. You chose the latter. That comes with consequences. To paraphrase the theme to "Barreta," if you couldn't do the time, you shouldn't have done the crime.


This is just one of those things where, if you haven't been in my shoes, you aren't going to understand. I know what the consequences of all this might be, but I'm doing everything I can to put things on a path where reconciliation is possible. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen.

I can explain just how bad things were, but because I'm the one that slipped, what I say will be treated with no credibility. So there's no point in going into that much detail. 

It's like if I had gone 7 years without sex, despite trying to push for it. If I slipped up and had a PA, of course that would have been wrong. But going that long without sex, TRYING to fix it but getting nowhere, and not understanding things well enough to know how to approach the problem properly all set you up to the point where it's easy to make that mistake.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Does the OW's husband know she cheated? What's the status of their relationship?


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> Wife and I already decided on divorce before it became physical.


I see. So you "only" gave your heart to the OW before deciding to divorce. You "only" gave her the emotional intimacy that you'd promised to your wife.

Since you'd decided on divorce, let your wife go. Salvage what tiny shred of honor may be left.



> I don't wish OW was still in my life. OP asked what we thought of the "others", and that's how I think of her.


Right...you wish she was still in your life. Isn't that what you said?



> She's a great person and we had a very strong connection.


A "great person" who thinks nothing of betraying her own husband with a married man. Sounds like a real peach.



> But what we did was wrong and my wife is more important to me than OW, so I have permanently cut off contact with her.


Yes, your wife was so much more important to you that you were prepared to divorce her in favor of the OW. I have to ask...did the affair end because you bad this alleged epiphany...or did the OW's husband find out about it, and they are working to reconcile?





> OW wasn't "getting some strange". It was real.


My mistake. I didn't realize that you, your wife AND the OW took vows to be faithful to one another on your wedding day.



> I can explain just how bad things were, but because I'm the one that slipped, what I say will be treated with no credibility. So there's no point in going into that much detail.


No offense, but, at this point, those "reasons" are just rationalizations. And, pretty much every cheating spouse does it. Little or great detail, you're looking at events with n eye towards justifying your betrayal.



> It's like if I had gone 7 years without sex, despite trying to push for it. If I slipped up and had a PA, of course that would have been wrong. But going that long without sex, TRYING to fix it but getting nowhere, and not understanding things well enough to know how to approach the problem properly all set you up to the point where it's easy to make that mistake.


I was going to touch on this in the last portion of my reply, but it seems more appropriate here. Like so many cheating spouses, you chose/are choosing to perceive events with a binary solution: either continue to suffer through conditions you find unbearable or cheat. There's often a side of "...but I tried..." and, let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say your attempts were genuine. You still opted to enter into an EA so strong that, even after claiming to adopt NC, you still defend the OW's honor (and, from where I'm sitting, it appears that you do so more strongly than you do your wife's...OW's a "great person" who is your "best friend" that you would gladly have back in your life, meanwhile your wife is ostensibly the cause of your cheating and betraying her didn't warrant a secon thought before diving into that EA).

I'm not saying any of this to he insulting. I've found that blunt, brutal honesty tends to get through to cheating spouses the best, and ideally cuts through the proverbial "fog" quicker.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Does the OW's husband know she cheated? What's the status of their relationship?


Yes, he was told in the same way my wife was. Last I knew, she was moving out of their house. They had different problems than us.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> I'm not saying any of this to he insulting. I've found that blunt, brutal honesty tends to get through to cheating spouses the best, and ideally cuts through the proverbial "fog" quicker.


What you're doing is stereotyping the situation. And while there are certainly commonalities between my situation and others, there are differences as well. Regardless of what you're trying to do, you ARE being insulting and quite frankly, all I'm trying to do here explain how this comes to be... the mental state of the cheater, so to speak. I honestly don't give a crap what YOU think about me. All you know of the situation is what I say and about half of that seems lost on you, or you are unwilling to try to understand what I'm saying.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> Yes, your wife was so much more important to you that you were prepared to divorce her in favor of the OW.


Coincidentally, this is an important point. I left my wife because I thought that she and I could never have what OW and I had. I didn't leave specifically for OW. OW and I spoke about this and realized that we may not work out as a couple, but at least we knew the kind of thing we were looking for. I thought I needed that "connection" and that it was impossible with my wife. When I figured out how important it was that the connection be with my wife, specifically, I cut off contact with OW despite still having the connection with her. I made a mistake. I learned from it and I turned things around. I screwed up and am now doing all I can to get back on the right path. What else do you want me to say?



> I have to ask...did the affair end because you bad this alleged epiphany...or did the OW's husband find out about it, and they are working to reconcile?


Affair ended because of the epiphany. OW's husband knew everything my wife knew. As far as I know, they are not working to reconcile.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

I won't beat you up, just asking some questions. If you wanted this connection with your wife, why not go to counseling when she asked? I don't get this. Also, what was it that was lacking so much with your relationship with your wife? What I mean is what changed? You have only been married for 2 years so surely you had that connection two years ago or you wouldn't have married her so what changed?


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> What you're doing is stereotyping the situation. And while there are certainly commonalities between my situation and others, there are differences as well.


Every cheating spouse thinks their story is unique. Then, as they tell that story, far more often than not, it hits all the same "beats" as the other stories. (For that matter, the same holds true for the stories of the betrayed spouses, as well). I hate to say it, but, unless you've left something very big out, you're going by the proverbial "script" with very little variation. The biggest variation that I've seen you make so far is actually deciding to divorce before taking the EA to PA.



> All you know of the situation is what I say and about half of that seems lost on you, or you are unwilling to try to understand what I'm saying.


I'm perfectly willing to understand. When you get to the essence of it, there's not much TO understand. You had problems in your marriage. You made attempts to rectify them (although, unless I misunderstood, you opted to decline an invitation to counseling). So, instead of pulling the plug, you opted to break your marriage vows by entering into an EA with a married woman. You elected to divorce, escalated the EA to PA. Called the PA quits, and can't quite put your finger on why your wife isn't welcoming you back with open arms when other couples have opted to reconcile after infidelity. Is that about the size of it?

That said, I hope you're equally willing to understand that your story isn't necessarily the mold-breaking unique situation that everyone stuck at the heart of a story of infidelity thinks they're living. No one wants to think of themselves as the "bad guy," or that their relationship is just as susceptible to the same pitfalls as everyone else's. But if you sit back and take a look at what you've described to us, I think you'll find far fewer differences to most of the stories we see here than you think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I won't beat you up, just asking some questions. If you wanted this connection with your wife, why not go to counseling when she asked? I don't get this. Also, what was it that was lacking so much with your relationship with your wife? What I mean is what changed? You have only been married for 2 years so surely you had that connection two years ago or you wouldn't have married her so what changed?


I'll answer the second question first. We never had that connection. Even before being married. I married her despite it not being there because I love her and I knew that she loved me. The feelings were always there. The understanding of why I loved her and what it was I wanted from our relationship was not. It was just the feeling. We were together 7 years despite it being SO hard to truly open up to each other. It felt like she was always behind a wall and every now and then there would be a small crack. If I tried to push, she slammed it shut. I was afraid to push harder because it made her very angry/upset and that scared me. So I never made it a huge issue. I obviously should have.

I refused counseling because we had been together that long and there seemed to be no way of getting through that wall. It was so easy with the OW that I thought the situation with my wife was hopeless or at least would just be a lifetime of struggle to get anywhere. I decided that if it was so hard with her, but so easy with other people, I just belonged with someone else. OW and I had no concrete plans to be together long term. We just both needed that kind of connection.

Not agreeing to counseling is my biggest regret and was my biggest mistake in all of this. Looking back on the list of things I would have done differently, that is #1. Within a month of my refusal to go, I caved, asked her if we could go and she refused. She said a few days ago that it has been "too late" since then.


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## Craggy456 (Feb 22, 2011)

She's already mentally checked out. If that "spark" wasn't there even before you got married, did you think it would appear after your affair?


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> So, instead of pulling the plug, you opted to break your marriage vows by entering into an EA with a married woman.


It happens so gradually you don't even realize that's what you're doing.



> Called the PA quits, and can't quite put your finger on why your wife isn't welcoming you back with open arms when other couples have opted to reconcile after infidelity. Is that about the size of it?


I understand why she isn't. I hope that in the future, she will reconsider, given all the steps I've made to get back on a good path.



> That said, I hope you're equally willing to understand that your story isn't necessarily the mold-breaking unique situation that everyone stuck at the heart of a story of infidelity thinks they're living. No one wants to think of themselves as the "bad guy," or that their relationship is just as susceptible to the same pitfalls as everyone else's. But if you sit back and take a look at what you've described to us, I think you'll find far fewer differences to most of the stories we see here than you think.


The differences are more in the why's, or the severities of certain issues than the actual events. For instance, you aren't going to convince me that either I or the OW are bad people. We aren't. We were in bad situations that we didn't even fully understand, we found something with each other that felt like food to a starving person, and we screwed up. Neither of us is perfect, but we aren't bad people.

My wife is also not a bad person. You said I was focusing on her faults, and I was, but only to try to lay out the background for the reasons behind all this happening. She is an extremely reserved person for reasons that aren't her fault and she did not deserve to be hurt like this. She's one of the most genuinely good people I've ever met. I thought I understood the situation and refused counseling to save her a painful, drawn-out breakup. I'd been in a serious relationship in the past that took WAY too long to resolve itself and it was SO much more painful for everyone that way. I knew I was hurting my wife, but because I felt so sure, I thought I had to and tried to do it firmly and cleanly. That's why I refused counseling and when she asked, "are you sure?", I said yes.

Again, not saying any of those decisions were right or good, but giving my state of mind at the time.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Craggy456 said:


> She's already mentally checked out. If that "spark" wasn't there even before you got married, did you think it would appear after your affair?


The spark IS there, or at least was. There is true, deep love between us and always has been. We've just NEVER been able to talk down to that level. It's always under the surface and we couldn't get below the surface.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

If I had to take a stab at this, she is guarded and reserved due to prior hurt. The small amount she did open up got stomped on. Am I right to an extent? What I am saying is that I can understand why she wants a divorce in that she feels the utmost of betrayal by the person who was never supposed to betray her, the person who was supposed to be safe. 
I cannot understand marrying someone you don't have a connection with though. That seems doomed to failure. Why not just let the divorce happen and go your separate ways? Wouldn't that be best for both of you.....the ability to find someone you do truly connect with?


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Jason, first off let me say that I'm a wayward to, some of what you say I understand. The very first thing you've got to accept is that no one on this board is going to have any sympathy for a cheater, the other cheaters included. You're not going to get a "Oh it's ok" from this group. What I think people here are taking exception to is that you basically told your wife that she was not your first choice, took an EA to PA, changed your mind and told your wife she was plan B, and then gave yourself a pat on the back for honesty and got upset when she didn't say ok let's reconcile. I know that's a gross over simplification but are those not accurate bullet points? 

The bottom line is that there is never never any excuse for cheating. Regardless of your story or mine there is just no excuse. Some of your post sound like you don't accept that and don't take full ownership of what you've done, the betrayed spouses here sense that and are calling you out on it. Only you know who's right. I know you've been honest about it with your wife, but that's not the same as owning it. Until you stop pointing that finger anywhere but at yourself regarding fault and your affair you just haven't taken full ownership. 

You're honesty is good and regardless of the outcome it is better to have been honest than not. Now finish the task and wrap your head around the fact that you - and only you - cheated, regardless of what your marriage was or wasn't like. You beat your wife up pretty good emotionally, she may or may not recover and reconcile, but listening to and following the advice here will help you. I know it's tough here - been there done that - but mostly everyone here wants to help. The people here have seen it all before and ultimately, as Grayson was saying, all of these stories are really pretty much all the same. 

Best of Luck.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> If I had to take a stab at this, she is guarded and reserved due to prior hurt. The small amount she did open up got stomped on. Am I right to an extent? What I am saying is that I can understand why she wants a divorce in that she feels the utmost of betrayal by the person who was never supposed to betray her, the person who was supposed to be safe.
> I cannot understand marrying someone you don't have a connection with though. That seems doomed to failure. Why not just let the divorce happen and go your separate ways? Wouldn't that be best for both of you.....the ability to find someone you do truly connect with?


She is guarded and reserved because of the household she grew up in. She wasn't close with her Mom (who left them when Mom was 30 and wife was ~9), her Dad worked all the time, and her Stepmom and stepsisters are very dominant personalities. She got steamrolled a lot. She said recently that I was the only person she'd tried to open up to. But her efforts were small (very big to HER, of course), and I didn't know how to look for them or see what they meant. I always thought I listened to her very well. Now I'm learning all the ways I didn't. It's another thing I'm working on in counseling.

It's not that we don't have a connection at all, it's just that we could only barely address it... meaning I felt like she could never open up to me. After my experiences in counseling, I firmly believe that MC would do AMAZING things for us, if we could only ever get there. Again, my biggest regret is refusing that at first.

I truly connect with OW. From the first time we met each other, we both knew it. But it doesn't fulfill the same need for me as connecting with my wife would. There are reasons for that that I've learned in counseling, but it's a lot to go into here. Suffice it to say that I believe we were drawn to each other in an effort to mend wounds that we've each had since childhood. That's why what we wanted so much from each other (i wanted connection, she wanted listening) was, perversely, what was the hardest thing for the other to give.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> Jason, first off let me say that I'm a wayward to, some of what you say I understand. The very first thing you've got to accept is that no one on this board is going to have any sympathy for a cheater, the other cheaters included. You're not going to get a "Oh it's ok" from this group. What I think people here are taking exception to is that you basically told your wife that she was not your first choice, took an EA to PA, changed your mind and told your wife she was plan B, and then gave yourself a pat on the back for honesty and got upset when she didn't say ok let's reconcile. I know that's a gross over simplification but are those not accurate bullet points?
> 
> The bottom line is that there is never never any excuse for cheating. Regardless of your story or mine there is just no excuse. Some of your post sound like you don't accept that and don't take full ownership of what you've done, the betrayed spouses here sense that and are calling you out on it. Only you know who's right. I know you've been honest about it with your wife, but that's not the same as owning it. Until you stop pointing that finger anywhere but at yourself regarding fault and your affair you just haven't taken full ownership.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I fully admit that while the reasons for all the **** were not all my faults, the mistakes of leaving and hurting her are. Entirely mine. Trust me, I live with it every day and have for months.

I'm trying to give a lot of background on our relationship and what happened in an effort to explain the mentality of someone in my position and how it can be VERY easy to do what I did. Not right, but very easy.

OW and I had an amazing connection. Could talk, with ease, about anything... liked the same music (music is very important to me, not to my wife), were the same age so we had the same cultural references (wife is 4.5 yrs younger, so we don't), had similar experiences in childhood, think the same way about a lot of things, etc. Like I said, it was real, not the typical fantasy. SO easy to do what I did. In fact, I only realized I was wrong as a result of counseling and by figuring out WHAT it was that made me want to be with my wife so much DESPITE not sharing all of those things and having what I now see as extremely poor communication.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> She is guarded and reserved because of the household she grew up in. She wasn't close with her Mom (who left them when Mom was 30 and wife was ~9), her Dad worked all the time, and her Stepmom and stepsisters are very dominant personalities. She got steamrolled a lot. She said recently that I was the only person she'd tried to open up to. But her efforts were small (very big to HER, of course), and I didn't know how to look for them or see what they meant. I always thought I listened to her very well. Now I'm learning all the ways I didn't. It's another thing I'm working on in counseling.
> 
> .


I had a feeling. I grew up in a similar household where I was never listened to. I can relate to your wife in that she gave a small piece of herself (to you) but a HUGE piece of herself to you (for her) and now she feels like you betrayed that gift in every sense of the word. It's incredibly painful. It's actually worse because she choose you to be her husband, she didn't choose her parents. 
I think the best thing the two of you can do is move on. Some things hurt so badly that the wound will never heal.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> Thank you. I fully admit that while the reasons for all the **** were not all my faults, the mistakes of leaving and hurting her are. Entirely mine. Trust me, I live with it every day and have for months.
> 
> I'm trying to give a lot of background on our relationship and what happened in an effort to explain the mentality of someone in my position and how it can be VERY easy to do what I did. Not right, but very easy.
> 
> OW and I had an amazing connection. Could talk, with ease, about anything... liked the same music (music is very important to me, not to my wife), were the same age so we had the same cultural references (wife is 4.5 yrs younger, so we don't), had similar experiences in childhood, think the same way about a lot of things, etc. Like I said, it was real, not the typical fantasy. SO easy to do what I did. In fact, I only realized I was wrong as a result of counseling and by figuring out WHAT it was that made me want to be with my wife so much DESPITE not sharing all of those things and having what I now see as extremely poor communication.


Being gentle here. I think you are glorifying this relationship more than it should be. Liking the same music and having the same cultural references isn't what creates a lifelong bond. It IS the typical fantasy. An escape. She's so perfect, we get along so well, we laugh at the same things, listen to the same things, love the same things. That isn't reality Jason. Not sustained reality at least. Over time, you would have found that people change/evolve. 
Also, you need to see her for what she is, NOT your best friend. A best friend has your true best interests at heart. She helped you destroy your marriage and cause all this pain. Would you want your wife to have a best friend like that? :scratchhead:


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I had a feeling. I grew up in a similar household where I was never listened to. I can relate to your wife in that she gave a small piece of herself (to you) but a HUGE piece of herself to you (for her) and now she feels like you betrayed that gift in every sense of the word. It's incredibly painful. It's actually worse because she choose you to be her husband, she didn't choose her parents.
> I think the best thing the two of you can do is move on. Some things hurt so badly that the wound will never heal.


That's what I mean when I say our issues combined were what made it all so hard/bad.

I don't care what you think the best thing we can do is. I want to save my relationship with her. I'm a long way from being convinced it's impossible.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> That's what I mean when I say our issues combined were what made it all so hard/bad.
> 
> I don't care what you think the best thing we can do is. I want to save my relationship with her. I'm a long way from being convinced it's impossible.


The problem is that SHE is done with the relationship. The hurt is too deep. It doesn't matter what I think, only she matters and she is divorcing you in one week. Granted, a relationship can be rebuilt after divorce, I am not saying it cannot.
I do commend you for going to counseling. It does sound like you are working towards a better you and that is awesome.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Jason...you are still in the fog. Super deep still in it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> The problem is that SHE is done with the relationship. The hurt is too deep. It doesn't matter what I think, only she matters and she is divorcing you in one week. Granted, a relationship can be rebuilt after divorce, I am not saying it cannot.
> I do commend you for going to counseling. It does sound like you are working towards a better you and that is awesome.


Oh I know the divorce is going to happen. I'm just hoping that once it's done and she has some time for things to settle down, she may decide to talk again. 

Jelly, you're gonna have to explain in more detail than that. I've read about the fog and I'm not super deep in it.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Jason...you are still in the fog. Super deep still in it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



^^^ I agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> Oh I know the divorce is going to happen. I'm just hoping that once it's done and she has some time for things to settle down, she may decide to talk again.
> 
> Jelly, you're gonna have to explain in more detail than that. I've read about the fog and I'm not super deep in it.


You are still glorifying your relationship for what you thought it was and not seeing it for what it really was. 
I asked you a question, would you want your wife to have a best friend as you had?
How long ago did you end the relationship with OW?


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Well if you're gonna say that, you need to explain why. I REMEMBER being in the fog, looking back. Back when I could hardly wait 4 days to see OW, couldn't wait to introduce her to family, friends, etc. (didn't, but really wanted to). I remember the feeling like it was an addiction. I don't feel that way now, but I still don't look at her as a horrible person. *I'm* not a horrible person. I made a horrible mistake and there's a difference.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You are still glorifying your relationship for what you thought it was and not seeing it for what it really was.
> I asked you a question, would you want your wife to have a best friend as you had?
> How long ago did you end the relationship with OW?


Ended 3 weeks ago. And I always wanted my wife to be my best friend and would want her to think that as well. She asked me if OW was my best friend before all this happened and I said yeah. She never said, "Why am I not your best friend?" and I just assumed that after 7 years, where we were was where we were going to be and that OW could just be a friend to fill in what I didn't get from my relationship with my wife. I didn't know it was possible to fix that with my wife.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> Well if you're gonna say that, you need to explain why. I REMEMBER being in the fog, looking back. Back when I could hardly wait 4 days to see OW, couldn't wait to introduce her to family, friends, etc. (didn't, but really wanted to). I remember the feeling like it was an addiction. I don't feel that way now, but I still don't look at her as a horrible person. *I'm* not a horrible person. I made a horrible mistake and there's a difference.


I never said you or her are horrible people. I said that the two of you are NOT best friends. Best friends don't help each other destroy their marriages. It WAS/IS an addiction. You are addicted to the high of being "in love". All sorts of chemicals get released in to your body when you are in that beginning stage. That is why people are so fooled and cannot see the bad in their partner. Everything is sunshine, rainbows and unicorns at that stage. You wanted to introduce your OW to your family for goodness sakes. 
Right now, you are comparing that "in love" stage to the relationship you had with your wife.....after 7 years. The two literally cannot compare.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> Ended 3 weeks ago. And I always wanted my wife to be my best friend and would want her to think that as well. She asked me if OW was my best friend before all this happened and I said yeah. She never said, "Why am I not your best friend?" and I just assumed that after 7 years, where we were was where we were going to be and that OW could just be a friend to fill in what I didn't get from my relationship with my wife. I didn't know it was possible to fix that with my wife.


You didn't answer my question....would you consider or want your wife to have a best friend who was an active cheating partner in destroying your marriage? Would you see that person as having your wife's best interest at heart?


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You didn't answer my question....would you consider or want your wife to have a best friend who was an active cheating partner in destroying your marriage? Would you see that person as having your wife's best interest at heart?


Of course not. OW has issues and problems of her own. In normal circumstances, neither of us would have recommended that we do what we did. We were both desperate for the same thing, so we ended up in the "fog" together. 

What if I put it this way... If OW and I had met before either of us met our spouses, we would have been best friends or close to it. OW said many times she felt guilty that she ruined my marriage. But of course it wasn't her. It was my decision to leave. I wish we had done things differently, but I still hope she leaves her husband. He was both physically and emotionally abusive to her.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

jason29927 said:


> OW said many times she felt guilty that she ruined my marriage. But of course it wasn't her.


OW actively, willfully and intentionally participated in both betraying and destroying your marriage. I'm not surprised she feels guilty. And even moreso because she herself is married. That is a hard thing to come to terms with once the fog wears off. For both of you. You aren't there yet. You are only three weeks out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

(*sigh* This is what happens when composing fairly long posts in available moments from a phone.)




jason29927 said:


> Coincidentally, this is an important point. I left my wife because I thought that she and I could never have what OW and I had. I didn't leave specifically for OW.


I would say (to mix metaphors) that you may be splitting hairs with 20/20 hindsight. You were entangled in a powerful EA, enraptured by this mysterious "connection" with the OW, chose to leave your wife to escalate to a PA, yet you "didn't leave specifically for the OW"? I'm not sure I follow the logic there. Unless....



> OW and I spoke about this and realized that we may not work out as a couple, but at least we knew the kind of thing we were looking for.


Was this conversation before or after leaving your spouses to pursue the PA? If after, then my confusion above still stands. If before, I'd say that makes the PA even more unforgivable. "There's no way we'd work as a couple. But let's ditch the spouses and fool around, anyway." 



> I thought I needed that "connection" and that it was impossible with my wife. When I figured out how important it was that the connection be with my wife, specifically, I cut off contact with OW despite still having the connection with her.


You probably don't consciously realize what you're saying with statements like this. You're giving the impression that your wife is the runner up. Sure, you're claiming NC with the other woman, but when speaking of your wife, it's always about what's missing...what you're "sacrificing" to honor the vows you made (and broke), how you think she should forgive you because you don't think you did anything "that bad.". Meanwhile, the OW is STILL your "best friend," despite NC...we hear how wonderful she is...how deep and strong the "connection" between the two of you is. Even now, hours after I firs started this reply, we've got more and more posts about how wonderful and perfect OW is with a single post mentioning your wife's positive qualities, a few that basically say, "Her family screwed her up." and statements that read like the old saw of, "I love her, but I'm not IN love with her."

As with many cheating spouses once the affair has ostensibly ended, you seem to think that's enough to bring you out of the "fog," but you're still deep in it. You may be hoping for a lighthouse, but your wife would appear to have shut it down. 



> Affair ended because of the epiphany. OW's husband knew everything my wife knew. As far as I know, they are not working to reconcile.


Fair enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

First off, I hope you want to hear all the advice and opinions Jason. We really are trying to help by giving you insight into what your STBXW may be thinking at this point.

Few questions I may have missed. I understand you just ened it with the OW 3 weeks ago. How long had you been together? I assume since d-day, but when was that?

I confess, some of the things you're saying do sound like "fog" talk. Sure it's not full blown addiction fog, but it's enough to make all of us LSs cringe. So, if we think it, odds are your wife would to. Right now you are like a stranger to her, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility that she'll think the same way we do. I've been in R with my H for 7 mos and I still get the "do I really know him" thoughts. The more time we spend together, the less I have them. So if you've been separtated from your wife for several months or more, her new unfavorable perception of you has taken a strong hold in her head.

If you're looking for an example of why I think "fog"... the comment about admitting the OW was your new best friend, but then partially blaming your wife for not responding by her asking "Why aren't I your best friend?". That makes me cringe. 

Your wife could've been in denial, she could've trusted you so much she didn't worry, she could've been too scared to confront you on it for fear you'd leave her (which ultimately you did), she could've felt so hurt she hid behind her emotional wall, the options are endless. Your comment that the OW was your new best friend probably devastated your wife, but the way it came out sounded passive aggressive and not an olive branch to R. You could've said, "I wish you were my best friend instead." Which would've reassured your wife and perhaps opened the door to communication.

Anything you say that remotely sounds like justification or blameshifting will make a LS defensive. You can explain your state of mind all day and all night, but when it comes down to it, it's your actions (good & bad) that really count in the mind of the LS. Your window to prove to your wife through your actions may have passed. 

What your wife sees is that you were disloyal the month you allowed an emotional connection to the OW, this new connection with the OW made you realize your marriage lacked a connection it would never have, so you ended it to enjoy the connection you found in the OW. Months later, you still have a connection with the OW, but now realize you'd prefer to have the connection with your wife so you started NC with the OW. Your wife will not believe you had an epiphany, she'll think the bloom fell off the rose. If you try to convince her otherwise, you're admitting to have feelings for the OW still. It's a tough sell either way.

Fyi... allowing the emotional affair/connection to happen with the OW in the first place is _very _hard for a LS to get over. I understand it's easy to go down the slippery slope and not even realize you're in an EA before it's deep. I used to say this to my H all the time, never allow a connection to start and continue. If you feel one blooming, run the opposite way, then tell your spouse. Face it together. Life is too long to think you'll never feel that spark for someone else, no matter how happy or miserable you are in your marriage. Recognizing that if you feel a "zing" with someone else, you need to go to your spouse ASAP and discuss, thus showing devotion, honesty, and loyality to your partner.

My H failed and didn't end the connection right away or come to me and discuss. However, on d-day, he did want R with me. So, I've been willing to give him that chance to prove himself through action. Words don't mean as much anymore.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> You probably don't consciously realize what you're saying with statements like this. You're giving the impression that your wife is the runner up.


That's not what I'm trying to say, at least. What I realized is that the connection with my wife is what I actually need. That a connection with someone else isn't the same and doesn't mean as much. I only left my wife because I thought it was hopeless.



> Was this conversation before or after leaving your spouses to pursue the PA? If after, then my confusion above still stands. If before, I'd say that makes the PA even more unforgivable. "There's no way we'd work as a couple. But let's ditch the spouses and fool around, anyway."


After. But the way you write it is not the way it was (again, you're putting words in my mouth as you have the whole time). It was "we may not work out, but what we have is the kind of thing we absolutely need and we didn't have that with our spouses."



> how you think she should forgive you because you don't think you did anything "that bad.".


I don't think that way. I'm pretty much done discussing this with you because you're projecting so much that it's a waste of my time trying to make it clear to you.



> Even now, hours after I firs started this reply, we've got more and more posts about how wonderful and perfect OW is with a single post mentioning your wife's positive qualities, a few that basically say, "Her family screwed her up." and statements that read like the old saw of, "I love her, but I'm not IN love with her."


I'm trying to explain how and why the EA happened in the first place. How it was so easy to screw up. You already know I want to reconcile with my wife. That should tell you something. My relationship with my wife was all I could ever want, *except* for not really being close and that's a huge issue.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> Few questions I may have missed. I understand you just ened it with the OW 3 weeks ago. How long had you been together? I assume since d-day, but when was that?


D-day was Easter Sunday. Was with OW for about 2.5 months. I'm well aware that I was away from my wife much longer than I've been trying to reconcile and it is not going to be something that happens quickly, if ever.



> If you're looking for an example of why I think "fog"... the comment about admitting the OW was your new best friend, but then partially blaming your wife for not responding by her asking "Why aren't I your best friend?". That makes me cringe.


I didn't say that to blame her for what I did. Only to show that both of us had issues that contributed to the situation. I'm the one that slipped. I know that.



> Recognizing that if you feel a "zing" with someone else, you need to go to your spouse ASAP and discuss, thus showing devotion, honesty, and loyality to your partner.


Obviously that's what should have happened and what would have happened had the wife and I had a healthy relationship with good communication. Communication felt impossible. Some of that was because of her and some of that was because of me. 



> Your wife will not believe you had an epiphany, she'll think the bloom fell off the rose. If you try to convince her otherwise, you're admitting to have feelings for the OW still. It's a tough sell either way.


That's what I'm facing, I know. I just hope that, in time, she remembers what I said about that... my apologies, my remorse, that I showed her for 7 years how much I loved her and just lost my way, and how I tried to get back on the right path as soon as I could and stuck to it (not re-establishing contact with OW will hopefully show that), and decide to talk to me again.

Right now, my wife sees me as unstable. I broke things off with her with not much warning, then a few months later, I break things off with OW seemingly suddenly. So she doesn't trust that I wouldn't just "jump" away again. I get it. That's why I hope that when she sees, in a few months, that I'm still going to counseling and still not with anyone else or OW, she'll begin to see that this was just a one-time thing.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Jason, you wrote that you hope in a few months she will see that this was a one time thing. I caution you to not get your hopes up too much. I read somewhere that it takes 2-5 years to heal from an affair. It could take your wife that long to come to terms with it or she may never accept it. 
Keep working on yourself though. Kudos to you in that area!


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Thank you. It's a question of whether she decides to heal on her own and forget about us, or decide that our relationship is worth it to try to heal together. Both are possibilities. I'm hope the latter is what happens, but I'm not optimistic. There are a lot of forces at work against that outcome. Not only would it be hard, but she's young and never been on her own, has never dated anyone besides me seriously, etc. It has to be incredibly tempting to her to think about just moving on in life. I can't blame her for feeling that way.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> That's not what I'm trying to say, at least. What I realized is that the connection with my wife is what I actually need. That a connection with someone else isn't the same and doesn't mean as much. I only left my wife because I thought it was hopeless.


I've no doubt you're not intentionally trying to send that message. But, look at it from her perspective, and I think you'll understand how easily that message can be interpreted from your actions. You can even tell her that's not what you mean, but, as the saying goes, actions speak louder than words.



> After. But the way you write it is not the way it was (again, you're putting words in my mouth as you have the whole time). It was "we may not work out, but what we have is the kind of thing we absolutely need and we didn't have that with our spouses."


I think you misunderstood what I was getting at, there. That hypothetical statement was in the scenario of you having the "we wouldn't work as a couple" conversation *before* leaving your wife.



> I don't think that way. I'm pretty much done discussing this with you because you're projecting so much that it's a waste of my time trying to make it clear to you.


I'm sorry you think I'm projecting. I'm just going by your own words in this very thread:

_jason29927 02:06 PM 08-07-2011
I'm sure that has something to do with it. It just kills me that NOT hiding it from her and lying about it seems like it was the WRONG thing to do. How the heck does that work? Other people do that and work things out. I try to at least be honest and "I'm" the one that ends up divorced. WTF?_

or

_jason29927 02:30 PM 08-07-2011
The EA happened for a reason. We were not close for a reason. I was unable to talk to her for a reason. It doesn't make it right, but on the spectrum of EA's, mine was about as far towards excusable as it gets. I started counseling 2 weeks after I broke things off with her and as soon as I understood everything, I took absolutely every step possible to get back on a good path. 

*It just hurts to see other people do things that are so much worse... and they get a chance. And I don't.*_

So, as I said, you seem to feel that, relatively speaking, what you did wasn't "that bad"...that others have done worse and gotten another chance, so you feel you should, too.



> I'm trying to explain how and why the EA happened in the first place. How it was so easy to screw up. You already know I want to reconcile with my wife. That should tell you something. My relationship with my wife was all I could ever want, *except* for not really being close and that's a huge issue.


What you're replying to here has nothing to do with the how's and why's of your affair. It has everything to do with the fact that you're still speaking of the OW in glowing terms of perfection, while your comments about the wife you say you want to someday reconcile with sound indifferent at best. It's very telling that you say you still consider the OW to be your "best friend" and still feel that "connection" with her...that giving her up to try to reconcile with your wife is a tremendous sacrifice. This is what is leading so many of us to the conclusion that you're still in the "fog."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Wait a minute - Jason, you said that you broke it off with the OW three weeks ago, and above Grayson quotes you as saying you started counseling two weeks after you broke it off with the OW and that as soon as you understood everything (as a result of counseling??) you took every step to get back on a good path. So you've been in counseling for one week?? In one week you "understood everything?" If you're therapist is good enough for you to understand everything behind what you did in one week I need his number. My EA was no where near as convoluted as yours and I was never confused about who I wanted to be with in spite of a "connection" with my OW and there is no way I could have come to understand everything behind my EA in a week - couldn't happen. I'm still learning things about it and I'm a year out. I don't think you've even started to process this and I think that is what your wife senses. Sorry if I'm harsh, but this stuff takes a lot of very painful work to get through for both the loyal spouse and the wayward.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

sigma, I started counseling 2 weeks after leaving my wife. Been in counseling for ~2 months.



> actions speak louder than words


There are no other actions at this point that I can take. I broke off contact with the OW and have been in counseling. That's all I can do for now.



> That hypothetical statement was in the scenario of you having the "we wouldn't work as a couple" conversation before leaving your wife.


It's hard for me to remember exactly what was said when, but yes, we discussed the connection thing and that it was something we needed before leaving our spouses. There were a lot of long phone conversations, so like I said, hard to remember exactly what was said.



> I'm sorry you think I'm projecting. I'm just going by your own words in this very thread:


What I did was wrong, but not nearly as wrong as what other people have done. It does feel unfair that other people do much worse and still get a chance and I don't. How could it not? It doesn't mean that I don't recognize the wrongness of my actions.

IIRC, you were the one cheated on, so forgive me if I'm a bit suspicious of you taking out that anger on me, because that's what it seems like.



> It has everything to do with the fact that you're still speaking of the OW in glowing terms of perfection


I'm not doing that. Projecting again. 



> while your comments about the wife you say you want to someday reconcile with sound indifferent at best.


Again, I was giving background, not trying to explain to you all what things about my wife I love. In regards to why the EA happened, that's all really beside the point. 



> It's very telling that you say you still consider the OW to be your "best friend" and still feel that "connection" with her...that giving her up to try to reconcile with your wife is a tremendous sacrifice.


Not all OW are horrible people. I can understand why you might want to feel that way, but it's not true. She's not perfect, but she's a very good person who made the same mistakes I did. You don't know her, or her past, or what she's been through with past relationships or her husband. I do. I still want my wife more.


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

As long as you think of the OW in a positive light, there is no hope for your marriage. Your wife would need you to acknowledge the OW for who she is, an utterly selfish and careless woman. She entered into a competition with your wife without giving her notice. She didn't hold back from stealing your heart and crushing your marriage. She spent very little time with you and was able to paint herself in the best light possible. You're still seeing the pretty little picture she painted. Your wife has no way to compete with a fantasy. More importantly, she's a beautifully strong woman for refusing to do so.

This thread has been a really interesting read. Every WS and OP claim to be special. No one wants to believe that they're ripping apart another person's life. The fog is a *****.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Jason,
What do you love about your wife?
FWIW, I have not been cheated on in my marriage and yes, I agree with most of the people here. It comes off as harsh but we all have our own style of posting and tone often doesn't come through so well, so bear that in mind.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> the OW for who she is, an utterly selfish and careless woman. She entered into a competition with your wife without giving her notice. She didn't hold back from stealing your heart and crushing your marriage. She spent very little time with you and was able to paint herself in the best light possible. You're still seeing the pretty little picture she painted. Your wife has no way to compete with a fantasy. More importantly, she's a beautifully strong woman for refusing to do so.


There is no point in me arguing against any of this, so I won't.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> Jason,
> What do you love about your wife?


She's smart, hard-working, very caring, genuine, beautiful, considerate and generally one of the nicest people you would ever meet. She's very good with children. There has always just been "something" between us despite us being an odd couple in some ways.

Except for not being able to be close to her, she is exactly the kind of person I would want to spend the rest of my life with. That's why I married her. It just got to be where the lack of connection was a huge problem and never got better. I thought what was missing could be gotten from friends or something. Of course, we see how that turned out.

The obvious criticism is that I should have brought up these concerns to my wife. Obviously I should have. There were reasons I didn't/couldn't, though.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

I think I forgot to mention that I've known OW for around 4.5 years. She's a friend of other friends I met years ago. We saw each other around 10 times in 4.5 years at group gatherings and always connected very easily, before there were any romantic feelings involved at all. When I first met her, she had just had her son, so there were literally no romantic aspects to our relationship until recently.

You guys want me to say that because OW did some selfish, careless, *wrong* things that she's a selfish, careless and bad person. It's not the same thing.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

were you in therapy when you escalated your EA to a PA? 

You have stated numerous times how well you think of the OW. 
You chose her over your wife and your wife knows that. You talk about how you miss the OW. Your wife most likely feels second choice like other posters have stated. FWIW, I think Grayson has many valid points. He has stated many things that I've thought about your situation. Unlike Grayson though, I was the cheater.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

pidge70 said:


> were you in therapy when you escalated your EA to a PA?
> 
> You have stated numerous times how well you think of the OW.
> You chose her over your wife and your wife knows that. You talk about how you miss the OW. Your wife most likely feels second choice like other posters have stated. FWIW, I think Grayson has many valid points. He has stated many things that I've thought about your situation. Unlike Grayson though, I was the cheater.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, escalated to PA 2 weeks before counseling started.

Yes, I know my wife feels that I chose her over my wife. And I DID choose her over my wife, of course. But the reason was because I was convinced that I couldn't really *have* my wife, that what I wanted with/from her was impossible.

Please keep in mind, I'm not going on and on about missing the OW. The OP asked how we felt about them and that's how I feel. There are times that I miss her. That I'm not going back to her should say a lot, and when I don't go back to her after the divorce is final, that should say more IMO.


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## Njadh01 (Aug 9, 2011)

Depending on what poll a person reads, an affair has a 3% to 20% chance of turning into something more. It depends on the marital status of each at the time. It maybe amicable after the affair has ended if there was an element of friendship before the affair started, not just infatuation. Regardless...adultery is adultery no matter what lie, deny, and justify a person wants to put on it. End it...or mend it


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

There's a saying that goes, if they will cheat with you, they will cheat on you. Obviously noone can convince you that the OW is not a good person. I'm sure your wife thinks she isn't. She cheated on her husband, a man she took vows with. She had a hand in destroying your marriage. She could have refused your advances, she didn't. If she had been a real friend, she would have told you to work on your marriage. You two escaped into fantasy land and destroyed both of your marriages. Now you have to deal with the fallout. 


Some people can NEVER get past the hurt and betrayal. Who can blame them? Noone deserves a second chance, one is granted one only by the grace of God. 

I really do hope you find yourself in therapy and that the next relationship you have will be a long, happy one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

I believe that my wife continued to think fondly of her affair partner for quite some time. It has only been recently that she discovered some lies he told her initially that effected her emotional connection and helped lead her to the PA. Now she is starting to see his true colors.

Her affair partner....while a very nice guy...is a compulsive liar who will hurt anyone he wants just to get a little happiness for himself. And happiness for him means sexual gratification and nothing more. This has been blatantly evedent in his actions and relationships post affair.

It took her seeing this to realize what kind of man he is deep down inside. Give it time and you may see what lies underneath the pretty exterior of your OW.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> It took her seeing this to realize what kind of man he is deep down inside. Give it time and you may see what lies underneath the pretty exterior of your OW.


You can say that about basically anybody.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

So back to the topic of the OP. Does anyone think that unless the OM/OW just goes batsh!t crazy or does something else over the top that makes their character undeniable that it is difficult for some waywards to think badly about their AP because it's a condemnation of themselves as well? Said another way do you think it hard for a wayward to think badly of their OW/OM based solely on the fact that they were willing to participate in an affair - because they are guilty of the same? Looking in the mirror so to speak. Just wondering.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

jason29927 said:


> You can say that about basically anybody.


Fair enough but, not everyone cheats on their spouse with another married person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph (Apr 2, 2011)

ill go ahead and make the generalization that anybody whos married and cheats with another person generally ha something wrong with them. 

yeah its a generalization, but it takes a certain amount of moxie to pull that off, and i dont mean that as a complement. 

its one thing to cheat with a single person who has no qualms about it, but for two people to come together and justify it, well thats all kinds of messed up.

and i think, ususlly it comes from personal issues that the cheater may have.

my wifes OM, who is/was married, ive learned is both controlling and manipulative and has a tendancy to be VERY passive aggressive. as well his self esteem is pretty shot, but he masks it like a mr. cool guy

my wife has always had low self esteem and suffers from low grade narcissistic personality disorder...


like i said its a getneralization..


so!


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## elph (Apr 2, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> So back to the topic of the OP. Does anyone think that unless the OM/OW just goes batsh!t crazy or does something else over the top that makes their character undeniable that it is difficult for some waywards to think badly about their AP because it's a condemnation of themselves as well? Said another way do you think it hard for a wayward to think badly of their OW/OM based solely on the fact that they were willing to participate in an affair - because they are guilty of the same? Looking in the mirror so to speak. Just wondering.


from what i gather, some people end up not liking the AP because not only them, but everything they represent and choose to distance themselves from that period in their life.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

elph said:


> from what i gather, some people end up not liking the AP because not only them, but everything they represent and choose to distance themselves from that period in their life.


I'm getting here. I can't say that I think my AP is a bad person - crazy maybe but not bad. But I am getting to where thinking about my affair and/or her just reminds me of a really horrible thing I did and I don't like that. As time goes on it's becoming memories that just bring bad unhappy thoughts and feelings.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> and i think, ususlly it comes from personal issues that the cheater may have.


If I had been less insecure in the relationship, I would have had the confidence to talk to my wife about my feelings more directly and things never would have happened this way. So yes, I agree with you. There is probably always something "wrong" with the cheater.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> I'm getting here. I can't say that I think my AP is a bad person - crazy maybe but not bad. But I am getting to where thinking about my affair and/or her just reminds me of a really horrible thing I did and I don't like that. As time goes on it's becoming memories that just bring bad unhappy thoughts and feelings.


This is happening with me as well.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> There are no other actions at this point that I can take. I broke off contact with the OW and have been in counseling. That's all I can do for now.


But it's not just your current actions speaking to her. It's also the actions that led to the present.

--You fell deep into an EA with another woman.
--Upon realizing you were in an EA, instead of ending it, you continued it.
--You left her to progress that EA to a PA, informing her of the deep "connection" you felt with the OW.
--Now, with the final divorce imminent, you're professing a desire to reconcile...a desire that did not exist until the proverbial eleventh hour.

The actions speaking to her are telling her that you broke your commitment to her...broke her heart...and could quite easily do it again.



> What I did was wrong, but not nearly as wrong as what other people have done. It does feel unfair that other people do much worse and still get a chance and I don't. How could it not? It doesn't mean that I don't recognize the wrongness of my actions.


Most reconciliations have little to do with what, specifically, the cheating spouse did. It has to do with what the betrayed spouse decides they can work past.

In your case, you not only cheated, but left your wife, telling her with actions if not words that reconciliation was out of the question. Now, they tell her that, since the grass wasn't greener, you're willing to settle for your fallback option of her. (I know...not your intent.) Assuming your desire to reconcile is genuine and not born of the shock of the divorce becoming final, she's had a chance to make her peace with the idea of moving on without you. And, some people just have zero tolerance for being cheated on.



> IIRC, you were the one cheated on, so forgive me if I'm a bit suspicious of you taking out that anger on me, because that's what it seems like.


You do recall correctly, but I'm not taking any anger out on you. Sorry if you feel that way. I may be blunt or brutally honest as I mentioned earlier, but don't mistake that for misplaced aggression.



> I'm not doing that. Projecting again.


No. Merely working with the information you've provided. Which leads us to....



> Again, I was giving background, not trying to explain to you all what things about my wife I love. In regards to why the EA happened, that's all really beside the point.


Yet I'm not the only one - on either side or the proverbial aisle - who is seeing it this way. We read your comments about the OW, and your enamored longing for her fairly leaps off the screen. Meanwhile, you seeming indifference to your wife jus sort of...sits there. You keep saying it's just a snapshot of what led you to cheat, but don't provide much to disabuse us of the conclusions we're drawing. Similar to what I've said before, your choice of snapshot background information - paricularly in response to posts (not just mine) that draw the same perception seems very telling.



> Not all OW are horrible people.


And who said they are?



> . She's not perfect, but she's a very good person who made the same mistakes I did. You don't know her, or her past, or what she's been through with past relationships or her husband. I do. I still want my wife more.


While I wouldn't say I could determine that she's all bad, please tell me which of the following qualities describe a "very good person" and/or a "best friend":

--Allows a member of the opposite sex to usurp the intimacy that is promised to their spouse.
--Usurps that same intimacy from the other person.
--Does not end the relationship upon realizing it is inappropriate.
--Proceeds to actively engage in activity that stands a very good chance of ending two marriages.
--Leaves their spouse in favor of their affair partner.

That's not to say that people can't redeem themselves, but please...be honest...do those sound like the actions of a "very good person?" We're not talking about someone making a mistake here and there. We're talking about someone making the conscious decision to engage in behavior that hurts not just themselves but others, as well. Her choices (and, yes, yours too) destroyed two marriages, caused damage to yourselves (you'll never be the same again now that you know you have the capacity to cheat), your spouses (it will be difficult, if not impossible, for them to fully trust anyone in any future relationships), and, ultimately, anyone that any of the four of you enter into relationships with in the future (the partners of the betrayed spouses will always be met with a degree of suspicion, while your partners - if you choose to reveal the reason your marriages ended - will wonder if/when you'll cheat on them).

I'm not sure I could call someone who knowingly engaged in such behavior "a very good person." Yes, I'd include my wife in that, as well. She is certainly striving to remake herself into a much better person, but she'd be the first to tell you that, when she was cheating, she wasn't "a very good person."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

sigma1299 said:


> So back to the topic of the OP. Does anyone think that unless the OM/OW just goes batsh!t crazy or does something else over the top that makes their character undeniable that it is difficult for some waywards to think badly about their AP because it's a condemnation of themselves as well? Said another way do you think it hard for a wayward to think badly of their OW/OM based solely on the fact that they were willing to participate in an affair - because they are guilty of the same? Looking in the mirror so to speak. Just wondering.


I'm not so sure. My wife hardly speaks of her long-term EA partner. So I don't know if she thinks ill of him or not. Her much shorter-term PA partner, though, brings out those harsh feelings without going bat-s crazy. That's not to say that, given what she's learned about her addiction that she doran find his presence tempting when she's in a paricularly low mindset. Even when she had the PA and it was discovered, she couldn't ultimately answer the question o why it was someone she hated that got her to cross the line to PA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

elph said:


> my wifes OM, who is/was married, ive learned is both controlling and manipulative and has a tendancy to be VERY passive aggressive. as well his self esteem is pretty shot, but he masks it like a mr. cool guy


Sounds a lot like my wife's PA OM. Always has something to say about everything. Whatever you've done or experienced, he's done it even better. Until we exposed his PA with my wife, he liked to play the "My wife's crazy and our marriage is hanging by a thread." role to prey on women. Now that he's divorced, he has a new, "I'm dejected and lonely because the woman I'm so deeply in love with won't commit to me." schtick, with both routines coupled with a side gig as a photographer to try to pick up women. He's currently begging online for people to contribute funding to pay for models for a photography project. Nude modeling required, of course.

Couple that with his claims of PTSD if he's caught with his hand in the cookie jar, and you've got all the makings of a real charmer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> The actions speaking to her are telling her that you broke your commitment to her...broke her heart...and could quite easily do it again.


Um, duh?



> Most reconciliations have little to do with what, specifically, the cheating spouse did. It has to do with what the betrayed spouse decides they can work past.


Also duh?



> Yet I'm not the only one - on either side or the proverbial aisle - who is seeing it this way.


Your read it the way you want to read it. I also responded to the post about why I love my wife, but you ignored that.



> I may be blunt or brutally honest as I mentioned earlier, but don't mistake that for misplaced aggression.


Rationalize it any way you want, but it's there.



> We read your comments about the OW, and your enamored longing for her fairly leaps off the screen....Similar to what I've said before, your choice of snapshot background information - paricularly in response to posts (not just mine) that draw the same perception seems very telling.


Again, it seems that way because I was explaining what led to the affair. OBVIOUSLY it's going to sound very positive in regards to the OW.



> That's not to say that people can't redeem themselves, but please...be honest...do those sound like the actions of a "very good person?"


Exactly. Now we're getting down to your motivation. You won't be satisfied until I say *I'm* a horrible person. That's what your arguments are all about. I made horrible mistakes, but I'm not a horrible person.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> Your read it the way you want to read it. I also responded to the post about why I love my wife, but you ignored that.


No, I didn't. My point has been consistent that the bulk of your comments regarding the OW have been overwhelmingly positive, while the bulk of your comments regarding your wife are less so. That ratio remains true, despite a single post about the positives regarding your wife. In the interest of balance, may we expect a similar single post about the negatives of the OW?



> Rationalize it any way you want, but it's there.


There's no rationalization necessary. It's not there.

But, for someone who takes exception to what he feels is someone jumping to incorrect conclusions, you're doing that very thing.



> Again, it seems that way because I was explaining what led to the affair. OBVIOUSLY it's going to sound very positive in regards to the OW.


And, again, you've still done nothing to disabuse us of the notion that the OW is anything less than perfect beyond "she made the same mistake (you) did." Meanwhile, we've heard some positives about your wife and plenty of her flaws.



> Exactly. Now we're getting down to your motivation. You won't be satisfied until I say *I'm* a horrible person. That's what your arguments are all about. I made horrible mistakes, but I'm not a horrible person.


And, again, when did I say *anyone* was a horrible person? You appear to be back to binary, where one is other a "very good person" or a "horrible person" with none o the shades of gray in between that apply to most people. I've never said nor implied that either of you are "horrible people," nor have I requested that you label either of you as such. I would, however, ask you again if you find the OW's actions and choices to be the hallmarks of someone you would describe as "a very good person?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I find it funny that you seem to be doing the same thing you accuse Grayson of doing. Anyway, bottom line, your wife obviously decided she did not want to take a chance of you hurting her again. When you told her of the EA she wanted to try then, you refused, escalated to a PA. I'm sorry you came to your epiphany too late. Unfortunately, you reap what you sow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> My point has been consistent that the bulk of your comments regarding the OW have been overwhelmingly positive, while the bulk of your comments regarding your wife are less so.


This is why I figure you have an agenda. I've explained god knows how many times why that is the case and you either don't get it or refuse to acknowledge it. It's pointless. You're on a mission here.



> But, for someone who takes exception to what he feels is someone jumping to incorrect conclusions, you're doing that very thing.


Your actions speak much louder than your words.



> And, again, you've still done nothing to disabuse us of the notion that the OW is anything less than perfect beyond "she made the same mistake (you) did." Meanwhile, we've heard some positives about your wife and plenty of her flaws.


OW is a good person who's had a s***y life and some extremely bad experiences in relationships. She was extremely lonely. I was lonely too. We've always found it easy to be good friends despite not seeing each other much. We found that we are very similar people and we desperate for the same thing. We screwed up in our desperation. I believe my marriage could be saved. Perhaps hers could too, but her husband has been abusive. My wife and I did not have a problem like that. She was lonely and afraid and not very confident. My wife is an amazing person who has an incredibly hard time opening up. 

I really don't know what else you expect me to say. I've gone over all of it several times, but you keep pressing. That's why I say you just have an agenda. You're angry about your own betrayal and you're taking it out on me. 



> And, again, when did I say anyone was a horrible person?


That was quite clearly implied in your last post: 



> do those sound like the actions of a "very good person?" We're not talking about someone making a mistake here and there. We're talking about someone making the conscious decision to engage in behavior that hurts not just themselves but others, as well. Her choices (and, yes, yours too) destroyed two marriages, caused damage to yourselves (you'll never be the same again now that you know you have the capacity to cheat), your spouses (it will be difficult, if not impossible, for them to fully trust anyone in any future relationships), and, ultimately, anyone that any of the four of you enter into relationships with in the future (the partners of the betrayed spouses will always be met with a degree of suspicion, while your partners - if you choose to reveal the reason your marriages ended - will wonder if/when you'll cheat on them).


Very good people can have problems that lead them to make terrible mistakes. It doesn't mean they aren't good people.



> I'm sorry you came to your epiphany too late. Unfortunately, you reap what you sow.


If the only thing you have to add is kicking me while I'm down, I'd appreciate it if you just didn't say anything.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

You win Jason. I'm done hijacking Elph's thread. 

Grayson: FWIW I think you made excellent points. 

In answer to OP, I could care less about the OM. Plain and simple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Grayson,

How about you just make it clear? What point exactly are you trying to prove?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Jason,
Nobody here thinks you are a horrible person. We all have issues or we wouldn't be here. You chose to seek out another to comfort those issues instead of dealing with them head on. I get that, I don't excuse it though. 
What those here are trying to say and you view as an attack is that this person you put up on a pedestal was willing to help you break your vows and she was willing to break hers, yet you call her your best friend. It is tough for those of us to read what you wrote and all the wonderful things you said about your wife and not feel that you are in some way confusing the OW as being even in the same realm as your wife. If you will, would you consider a person to be your friend if they were willing to rip the rug out from under your feet? Would you see them as a friend if they were willing to help you break your code/vows/morals? Is that really a friend?
I am not beating you up, I can hear that you are suffering, I am pointing out that you aren't seeing this woman clearly for who she is.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> Grayson,
> 
> How about you just make it clear? What point exactly are you trying to prove?


That's certainly an honest question, jason. As our back-and-forth has continued, as you and I both have occasionally become fixated on a particular statement or other, everything does seem to have gotten jumbled in the mix. We've touched on several different points, but there seems to be one in particular that has become a sticking point. So, I'm game for trying to untangle that if you are.

Let's take a look at the whole perception of the OW.

You've made it abundantly clear that your initial statements were simply establishing your state of mind that led to the EA. Based on the tenor of those statements, several of us, based on experience on both sides of the equation, have concluded that you're still in the "fog." At less than a month out from ending your relationship with the OW, it's certainly not uncommon or unexpected to still be there.

What leads us to that conclusion is the apparent total lack of flaws in your descriptions of the OW, coupled with your choosing her not once, but twice over your wife...once with the EA, then with the decision to leave your marriage to a PA. Based on what you've said here, you may not be as deep in the "fog" as you once were, but I think it's safe to conclude that you're still there.

This goes hand-in-hand with your interpretation of the conclusion that several of us have drawn that, based upon her choices and behavior, we wouldn't agree with your assessment that the OW is "a very good person." You've chosen to interpret this as saying that she's "a horrible person." These two descriptors are extremes. One can be less than "a very good person" without automatically being a "horrible person." 

If we must go into further definition to clarify, I'd say that most of us would reach a consensus that a "very good person" would go out of his or her way to always do the right thing, for him/herself and for others...to, as a physician's Hypocratic Oath says, first do no harm. Someone who makes a conscious decision to cheat and/or participate in another's cheating, by that definition is not a "very good person." That doesn't make them a "horrible person" by any stretch. I'd say that a "horrible person" is one who is, consistently, selfish and unconcerned with the harmful consequences that their actions may have on others in pursuit of their own ends.

With those definitions in mind, you've said nothing to indicate to anyone here that either of you are "horrible people." But, you have demonstrated that the term "very good people" as I've defined it here does not apply. Since you've taken umbrage at the way I put it earlier, would it be safe to conclude that you agree the OW's actions and choices are not those of a "very good person?" Agreeing with that determination does not equate to you saying that either or both of you are "horrible people." I'm not sure what specific label might be applied...I've been working with just the two terms you've used, and how I would define those two terms.

Which is all a rather long-winded way of saying that, if I'm trying to "prove" anything about this particular point, its that...well...Therealbrighteyes got it absolutely right..


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

Jason, what I gather from Grayson's comments is that he's trying to show you what your STBXW is most likely thinking. 

He's also trying to get you to take a closer look at the OW and focus on her personal faults for pursing the affair, instead of her past history or abusive marriage. Because if your wife ever starts talking to you and considers R, she's going to want to hear negative things about the OW. She doesn't want to hear about the OW's $#!tty past and abusive marriage. Your wife's response would be, "You were abusive by having an EA and closing yourself off to me emotionally and leaving me for another woman." Most LSs will have zero sympathy for the OW and their reasons for engaging in an EA. Lonely won't cut it either. Right now, if your wife was to read this thread and how you percieve the OW, odds are she would write you off immediately.

So, in the interest of preparing you for the hopeful day your wife will open communication with you again, please take everything posted under consideration. You don't want to lie to your wife, but be sure that your perception of the OW is 100%acurate. Remember, at one point you were 100% sure your marriage could never have the connection you needed. You now say you were mistaken. It's possible you may be mistaken about the OW.

By the way, _never_ defend the OW to your wife. Never. Shortly after d-day my H started to defend the OW or at least try to project her in a postive light to me. I reamed him. If you think Grayson is harping on you, I became the Queen of Harpies. I very rarely get angry and am described as pretty jovial, but at that moment, my body shook with rage. So, if you get a second chance, be careful not to lie to your STBXW, but think very hard about what is the truth.

I know you feel what you did is not "as bad" as other cheaters, but I beg to differ. You felt a genuine, supposedly real, connection to the OW. She was/is truly your best friend. Oh my goodness, in my eyes, that is so much worse. To me, what you did to your wife is right up there as one of the most painful infidelity experiences possible. Someone once described infideltiy as having your heart raped.... you did that to your wife by confessing the EA, but her pain from it wasn't enough to stop you from pursuing a PA with the OW. So sadly, your infidelity ranks right up there with the rest of the cheaters.

It is possible your wife might consider R someday, so I'm not trying to discourage you from trying. Just giving you your STBXW's POV, so you don't say something that will make her regret talking to you.

Stay in therapy, self improvement is always good. Keeping away from the OW is also a plus. Regardless of whether or not you R with your wife, I'm sure it helps her thinking your affair is over.

By the way, I doubt any of us LS's are taking out our anger on you. Many of us spent our anger long ago on our DS, where it belonged. I've actually pm'd with an OW and tried to help her with R. I know cheaters are not bad people, they just made bad decisions. I do wish you well.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Thanks, Saffron. I think I managed to get a bit locked in to how I was putting things, so even in that last post, just ended up repeating myself.

You put it quite well.

Now, I'm gonna give you a gold star and head off to sleep. ;-) 'night, all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ember (Jul 17, 2011)

2xloser said:


> fwiw, a slightly different perspective: When I asked my WW about her feelings toward the OM now, her instant reaction was that she didn't care either way, had literally no feelings. Didn't hate him, didn't have any interest in what or how he was doing now -- just didn't care at all. Best answer there could have been, I think. If she hated him for what "he did", then she wouldn't be owning what she did, and 'hate' is too emotionally charged with caring one way or the other for my own taste...


Well said!


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Jason,
> Nobody here thinks you are a horrible person. We all have issues or we wouldn't be here. You chose to seek out another to comfort those issues instead of dealing with them head on. I get that, I don't excuse it though.
> What those here are trying to say and you view as an attack is that this person you put up on a pedestal was willing to help you break your vows and she was willing to break hers, yet you call her your best friend. It is tough for those of us to read what you wrote and all the wonderful things you said about your wife and not feel that you are in some way confusing the OW as being even in the same realm as your wife. If you will, would you consider a person to be your friend if they were willing to rip the rug out from under your feet? Would you see them as a friend if they were willing to help you break your code/vows/morals? Is that really a friend?
> I am not beating you up, I can hear that you are suffering, I am pointing out that you aren't seeing this woman clearly for who she is.


I understand what you're saying here. But what you have to realize is that she and I did the same thing. Only difference is that her marriage was far more broken than mine was. I can't say she's a bad person without saying I'm a bad person... and I'm not. Was she desperate? Yes. Was I suddenly a bright spot in a very dark life for her? Yes. Was she eager to believe that I was in a bad marriage too? Of course. 

I'm obviously more merciful in my view of her than you guys are, but that doesn't mean that I'm not seeing her for "who she is" and you are. I just understand how easy it was for us to make the mistakes we made... because I made them myself.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> What leads us to that conclusion is the apparent total lack of flaws in your descriptions of the OW


I have not said she was perfect and I've acknowledged her flaws. This is becoming a pattern with you.



> Someone who makes a conscious decision to cheat and/or participate in another's cheating, by that definition is not a "very good person." That doesn't make them a "horrible person" by any stretch. I'd say that a "horrible person" is one who is, consistently, selfish and unconcerned with the harmful consequences that their actions may have on others in pursuit of their own ends.


Ok fair enough. You're much easier to talk to when you aren't being hostile with the excuse of being "brutally honest". How about just being regular honest? 



> But, you have demonstrated that the term "very good people" as I've defined it here does not apply. Since you've taken umbrage at the way I put it earlier, would it be safe to conclude that you agree the OW's actions and choices are not those of a "very good person?" Agreeing with that determination does not equate to you saying that either or both of you are "horrible people." I'm not sure what specific label might be applied...I've been working with just the two terms you've used, and how I would define those two terms.


What if I said instead that she's a very good, but not very healthy person? Would that make more sense? Because that's how I feel about myself as well. The reasons things went as far as they did and why I did not have the strength to force the conversation with my wife were due in part to my own weaknesses or "issues", if you will. It's the same with OW. 



> You felt a genuine, supposedly real, connection to the OW. She was/is truly your best friend. Oh my goodness, in my eyes, that is so much worse. To me, what you did to your wife is right up there as one of the most painful infidelity experiences possible.


I can see why that would *hurt* her more, but I can't see why that makes my actions worse. I would be so much more hurt if my wife had cheated as a fling than if she had felt emotionally disconnected from me and had an affair with someone she truly considered a friend. I would understand that so much more. A "You needed something that I wasn't giving you." rather than a "You cheated on me just for the hell of it."

Please explain to me the difference. I really do want to understand that perspective.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

jason it is my opinion that you really are getting hung up on the good or bad person thing while mostly leaving out the condemnation of the act. Sure I've seen regret on your part but for the most part you seem centered on defending the motives of both you and your OW. Mind you, there are is some recognition that these excuses aren't a valid excuse, so you're getting there.

and I get that to a certain extent- it's only been a month since your affair ended and you are struggling to understand why a "good person" would do such bad things. I also contend that not exploring the underlying reasons would be a mistake. However, you really need to own up to the act itself. You really need to admit in some form- "wow, I really did do a really ****ty thing here" and by the same token say the same of the OW since she was in the same boat. By the defense of the OW's actions in the thread (and scream all you wish about it, but I see it too) you are trying to validate your actions of yourself. It's natural to get defensive about one's own ego and actions. It's truly hard to accept otherwise but it's a crucial step in recovery- with or without your wife on board. I think you'll get there, as it's obvious that you have taken many positive steps and show a desire to do more.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

elph said:


> from what i gather, some people end up not liking the AP because not only them, but everything they represent and choose to distance themselves from that period in their life.


This is true in my case. I hate what it represents. A time in my life I wish I could black out and that had never happened. It makes me feel awful thinking back on what I thoguht were good times being laced with all of the guilt and sadness I feel now over the decision I made to have this inappropriate relationship.

OM was not married in my case, not dating, nothing. If he had been married I am sure my guilt would be even worse.



Njadh01 said:


> Depending on what poll a person reads, an affair has a 3% to 20% chance of turning into something more. It depends on the marital status of each at the time.


It makes sense too. Most affairs do end. While there are some that turn into long-term relationships, most of them will die at some point. I think I read once where an affair-relationship is said to last up to 2-4 years at most.



sigma1299 said:


> So back to the topic of the OP. Does anyone think that unless the OM/OW just goes batsh!t crazy or does something else over the top that makes their character undeniable that it is difficult for some waywards to think badly about their AP because it's a condemnation of themselves as well? Said another way do you think it hard for a wayward to think badly of their OW/OM based solely on the fact that they were willing to participate in an affair - because they are guilty of the same? Looking in the mirror so to speak. Just wondering.


Maybe. I don't know though. I think a lot of times there is a hypocrisy over "Well they were willing to participate int he cheating so they can't be that good of a person." My ex husband spoke terribly about the OW and said things that were awful about her. She was in a relationship with someone at the time (and may still be). 

As for the AP doing something overwhelming/over the top to lash out, etc or throwing the other AP under the bus--yes, maybe there is an element of that that if the disloyal spouse sees the person did something awful--it may wake them out of the fog quicker. I guess it can go several ways.




pidge70 said:


> I find it funny that you seem to be doing the same thing you accuse Grayson of doing. Anyway, bottom line, your wife obviously decided she did not want to take a chance of you hurting her again. When you told her of the EA she wanted to try then, you refused, escalated to a PA. I'm sorry you came to your epiphany too late. Unfortunately, you reap what you sow.


:iagree:

Jason, you may want to start your own thread in Coping with Infidelity if you want to keep talking about your OW/situation.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> However, you really need to own up to the act itself. You really need to admit in some form- "wow, I really did do a really ****ty thing here" and by the same token say the same of the OW since she was in the same boat.


Sure, I admit that. I've said that to my wife several times, as well.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> I have not said she was perfect and I've acknowledged her flaws. This is becoming a pattern with you.


There is indeed a pattern: I read your posts.



> Ok fair enough. You're much easier to talk to when you aren't being hostile with the excuse of being "brutally honest". How about just being regular honest?


No hostility involved. If anything, a great degree of incredulity towards your current stance, but no hostility. Funny thing is, at least once in another recent post, I said much the same thing in much the same way: that not being "a very good person" does not automatically mean someone is "a horrible person." In response, you accused me of having an "agenda" of trying to get you to say that you're "a horrible person."

Frankly, sometimes honesty is brutal, no matter how it's phrased. And, not everyone is prepared to hear the hard truths at a given time.



> What if I said instead that she's a very good, but not very healthy person? Would that make more sense? Because that's how I feel about myself as well. The reasons things went as far as they did and why I did not have the strength to force the conversation with my wife were due in part to my own weaknesses or "issues", if you will. It's the same with OW.


If we must ascribe a label, I'd say (if we assume that your description of her is accurate, and not filtered through rose-colored glasses) she's a "fairly decent" person. But, in my own, personal opinion, I still maintain that the capacity to willingly and knowingly take part in damaging behavior and to set aside one's beliefs and morals is not a quality that would be found in a "very good person," and "health" (mental or otherwise) doesn't change that.

You touch on this a bit in your reply to Therealbrighteyes, and I think it's pertenent here:



> I understand what you're saying here. But what you have to realize is that she and I did the same thing. Only difference is that her marriage was far more broken than mine was. I can't say she's a bad person without saying I'm a bad person... and I'm not. Was she desperate? Yes. Was I suddenly a bright spot in a very dark life for her? Yes. Was she eager to believe that I was in a bad marriage too? Of course.
> 
> I'm obviously more merciful in my view of her than you guys are, but that doesn't mean that I'm not seeing her for "who she is" and you are. I just understand how easy it was for us to make the mistakes we made... because I made them myself.


And a lot of the pieces fall into place here. No one, faced with their flaws, wants to see themselves as not being the best person that they can be. As I've mentioned previously, people can redeem themselves...improve themselves...become better people. And, it's very rare for someone to be the same "type" of person their entire life. If nothing else, at the time of your affair, sorry, but neither you nor the OW were "very good people." You can certainly improve yourself. You can identify those parts of yourself that enabled your behavior, and work to correct them.

If we accept your desire to reconcile as genuine, you've demonstrated a desire to do just that...to improve yourself. I'd suggest, though, that you do so not in the hopes of reconciling, but for yourself. Believe it or not, I hurt for you, reading your hopes for reconciliation, because I see something of myself from many years ago in those words. It wasn't a marriage, but after a particularly bad breakup, I held up hopes that we'd get back together. She moved on...I still held out hope. She became her now-married ex-boyfriend's OW (with him married to the woman he cheated on her with)...I still held out hope. She moved in with another guy...I still held out hope. She got pregnant with that other guy...I still...held...out...hope. This went on for some 3-4 years. It took a tremendous shock to the system to snap me out of it. Don't let that be you.



> I can see why that would *hurt* her more, but I can't see why that makes my actions worse. I would be so much more hurt if my wife had cheated as a fling than if she had felt emotionally disconnected from me and had an affair with someone she truly considered a friend. I would understand that so much more. A "You needed something that I wasn't giving you." rather than a "You cheated on me just for the hell of it." Please explain to me the difference. I really do want to understand that perspective.


Let me take a stab at this, if I may. It's been frequently observed that a purely PA...a "fling"...tends to be easier to accept and recover from, specifically because there is no attachment between one's spouse and the OM/OW. With an EA, you've not only given your body to the OM/OW, but you've given your heart. The "connection" that has come up so frequently in your backstory is something that, on your wedding day, you promised to your wife. You gave that to someone else. You forged a bond with the OW that was stronger than the one you had with your wife. You turned to the OW rather than your wife to fulfill your emotional needs. Those long conversations about anything and everything, baring your soul to the OW? Those were rightfully conversations to have with your wife. Part of that stems from the frequent rationalization that those in an EA invoke: "I didn't have sex, so it isn't wrong. He/she is just a good friend."

In your case, not to harp on it, but you compounded that insult and injury in your wife's eyes. As has been noted, upon reaching the realization that you *were*in an EA, you did come clean to her...to leave and escalate the affair to a PA...metaphorically speaking, after slapping her in the face, you kicked her in the gut.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

jason29927 said:


> I can see why that would *hurt* her more, but I can't see why that makes my actions worse. I would be so much more hurt if my wife had cheated as a fling than if she had felt emotionally disconnected from me and had an affair with someone she truly considered a friend. I would understand that so much more. A "You needed something that I wasn't giving you." rather than a "You cheated on me just for the hell of it."
> 
> Please explain to me the difference. I really do want to understand that perspective.


In general, a cheaters actions are pretty much equally bad in my mind while they are in an affair, regardless of it being an EA or PA. While in an affair, many cheaters believe what they have is real and that the affair is meaningful and is fulfilling something their spouse is not supplying. My H believed it too, but once he was faced with losing me, he gave up the OW and the affair. The affair was not as meaningful or important as me.

As a loyal spouse, you can "understand" the reason behind the affair, but it doesn't make it hurt less. If my H had meaningless sex with someone, that would hurt far less. Even meaningless sex may be supplying a need the cheater feels their spouse isn't giving, like more sex. However, for an LS to be told that their lack of connection and emotional fullfillment is what drove the DS into the arms of another person, is very painful to hear and a hard pill to swallow. A lack of sex and physcial attention doesn't seem to blame an LSs ability to love or be giving emotionally, which reflects on their personality and core traits rather than their sex drive.

Truly understanding how painful infidelity is to your wife is important. Flipant comments saying that one form of cheating is not as bad as the other, is not getting it. If you've never been cheated on, I don't really expect you to get it. By saying your type of affair is "worse", I meant that it was worse for her to experience. Maybe they're are some people who would prefer your form of infidelity over another, maybe it's a guy thing, but you can't assume that's how your wife feels. For her the emotional connection you felt with the OW, something she was unable to give you, hits below the belt and probably at her greatest insecurity.

I agree with Jellybeans, if you really want to try and understand where we are all coming from, you should start your own thread. It may make a difference if your wife ever gives you another chance.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> Those long conversations about anything and everything, baring your soul to the OW? Those were rightfully conversations to have with your wife.


I tried. Didn't work. Wife was uncomfortable and would never have these kinds of conversations. Just as there are emotional affairs, there is emotional detachment. She knew how important that was to me, but she wasn't strong enough to push herself into having them. She was too afraid. I should have been strong enough to push harder or just end it without the involvement of another person, but I wasn't. I didn't push harder because I didn't want to upset my wife that much and I didn't just end it because I love my wife and didn't want to leave her. 

The affair was completely my fault and my decision. Getting to that point was not.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

> Truly understanding how painful infidelity is to your wife is important. Flipant comments saying that one form of cheating is not as bad as the other, is not getting it. If you've never been cheated on, I don't really expect you to get it. By saying your type of affair is "worse", I meant that it was worse for her to experience. Maybe they're are some people who would prefer your form of infidelity over another, maybe it's a guy thing, but you can't assume that's how your wife feels. For her the emotional connection you felt with the OW, something she was unable to give you, hits below the belt and probably at her greatest insecurity.


I completely agree with all of that. There is a difference between it hurting her less or more, and the actions being less or more morally wrong (and there are degrees, sorry).

I don't assume that's how my wife feels. She told me. She said it would have been better had I hid an affair behind her back, then came clean when I wanted to end it, because then she wouldn't have felt like I didn't want her. I understand that feeling completely. What she doesn't understand yet is that it wasn't that I wanted someone else more than her, or considered her less than my first choice... she was ALWAYS my first choice. It just felt like what I wanted was impossible. That she COULDN'T be a choice. When, as a result of counseling, I came to understand that I was wrong, I dropped the OW immediately just for the CHANCE to R with my wife, knowing that it was probably too late. I've never wanted anything more in my life than to feel truly close with my wife.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Jason--seriously... you should start your own thread in Coping. This thread has become The Jason Show. LOL.


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## jason29927 (Aug 1, 2011)

Done. See "The Jason29927" thread.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

Grayson said:


> In your case, not to harp on it, but you compounded that insult and injury in your wife's eyes. As has been noted, upon reaching the realization that you *were*in an EA, you did come clean to her...to leave and escalate the affair to a PA...metaphorically speaking, after slapping her in the face, you kicked her in the gut.


I can tell you that hurts like hell.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

Well.... looks like Jason has been banned and his thread locked. _*sigh*_ Was hoping we could still work with him on diving into the LS's mind, but being respectful to others is important and not taken lightly around here.

I guess my final thought, perhaps there are levels of infidelity, however only the LS can judge where in the shade of gray the betrayal that affects them lies. 

Someone who finds out their DS has BPD and is a chronic liar, may choose to forgive every shady and dishonest action committed by their spouse during a year long EA/PA. But someone who has a DS who is stable and never lied before, finds out their spouse had a 1 week EA with nothing physical, may never forgive the deception.

I don't think anyone can truly know their dealbreaker until they face infidelity. I used to think a PA would be mine, turns out it's not, but an EA came pretty darn close. Many of us who have lived through infidelity put thought out dealbreakers into our mind before choosing to R. So, it's possible J's wife had "being broken up with again" as her dealbreaker, since it happened years prior. With some time to heal, I suppose nothing is impossible...good luck to you Jason.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I can assure you, my having BPD played no factor on my SO deciding to R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

pidge70 said:


> I can assure you, my having BPD played no factor on my SO deciding to R.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hope I didn't offend, just meant it as an example that the decision to attempt R (if it's wanted by the DS too) is more dependent on the LS and what they can handle. All the different factors that contributed or played a part in the infidelity are taken into consideration by the LS, but only the LS can determine what is their dealbreaker.

The only reason I mentioned BPD was because it was the first disorder that popped into my head that might make R more difficult to consider for the LS. Some people are not strong enough to tackle something like that on top of infidelity. I take it your SO was up for it? Hope so, you've had great things to say regarding R and infidelity.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

My wife has told me, she now realizes they used each other. Both for commiserating about their spouses. The sex, she now realizes what hard pressed by him, but she knows she went along willingly. SHe has NO emotion for him now. She has cut him out her life and hates what they did. I'm smart enough not do it, but I still fantasize about taking him out. He was a supposed long time friend of mine and lied and deceived me as much as she did.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Saffron said:


> Hope I didn't offend, just meant it as an example that the decision to attempt R (if it's wanted by the DS too) is more dependent on the LS and what they can handle. All the different factors that contributed or played a part in the infidelity are taken into consideration by the LS, but only the LS can determine what is their dealbreaker.
> 
> The only reason I mentioned BPD was because it was the first disorder that popped into my head that might make R more difficult to consider for the LS. Some people are not strong enough to tackle something like that on top of infidelity. I take it your SO was up for it? Hope so, you've had great things to say regarding R and infidelity.



No offense taken. I feel for anyone with a H/W who has BPD. It is a horrible disorder for everyone to deal with especially if you are self aware. Unfortunately I had to have an abrupt wake up call before I dealt with it. 


Thank you for the compliment. I think your postings are awesome!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph (Apr 2, 2011)

8yearscheating said:


> My wife has told me, she now realizes they used each other. Both for commiserating about their spouses. The sex, she now realizes what hard pressed by him, but she knows she went along willingly. SHe has NO emotion for him now. She has cut him out her life and hates what they did. I'm smart enough not do it, but I still fantasize about taking him out. He was a supposed long time friend of mine and lied and deceived me as much as she did.


Without the long time friend part, I'm almost positive this is what happened and exactally how mine will play out. Except, unlike most people I got to, to a degree, confront the OM. From th cimiserating to the sex part. When my wife clears of the fog ( and she's had a few "moments of clarity") she will see it as exactally what it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lookingforsupport (May 13, 2013)

elph said:


> I dont know if they would hang out in this forum section, but ill give it a shot anyway.
> 
> My therapist has said, based off of all the info ive given her on my situation, and the fact shes seen about 2000 cases where infidelity is the theme or problem, that my wife and the OM will eventually end up hating each other.
> 
> ...


She grosses me out, frankly. I don't know what I ever saw in her, and I hate the person I was when I was with her. We would never be even casual friends.


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## Heaven2hell (Mar 31, 2016)

I'm not sure how helpful my response will be to anyone, but back when I was nose deep in my EA I remember scouring the Internet in hopes to find out just how long it would take for my pain to stop. So hopefully this helps someone. I'm seven months post affair and zero contact. It was brutal for the first three months. I mean brutal. No words to describe that pain. But now, I can honestly say that I'm thrilled to be out of the fog. Did I love him? Depends on how you define love. I was in love with him, yes, but I don't think I could have loved someone--unconditionally, really truly loved someone if conditions never really had time to evolve. I have nothing but respect for him and fond memories of him (not the affair itself). I believe he was a good guy who, like me, got swept up into something really bad. I know I'll never stray again, I'd rather face divorce than lose my integrity, and I believe he will remain faithful to his wife as well.


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## KatNap (Mar 30, 2016)

I don't hate him. I miss him. But as time goes by, he crosses my mind less and less. One day I'll probably forget his name. But I'll never hate him.


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## nursejackie (May 22, 2015)

Other than embarrassment for my behaviour and stupidity I feel nothing towards AP. H threatened to punch the guy out one day and I shrugged my shoulders. I am fine with that as long as H doesn't get himself in trouble. After I disclosed my A to H and saw the pain it caused him (25 years later) there could never be any romanticizing of the A. It just seemed embarrassingly immature selfish and sordid.

How did AP compare to H? H was infinitely more attractive, athletic, fit, and although I didn't have sex with AP I can't imagine that he (or anyone else for that matter) could trump H in that regard. H was a doer-always helping people. Knew everyone and everyone loved him. AP was a thinker I guess. He was an introvert with few friends. The attraction for AP came solely from his communication and attention. At the time- H was almost never home. When he was, he rarely looked me in the eye. He would literally shut the light off, shut the door and leave the room while I was telling him about my day. He once changed the TV channel while I was sharing a devastating event (sexual abuse by my mothers friend- which she blamed on me at 7 years old-UGH!) 

Its been a year and a half since I first started suspecting H of having an EA/PA with a coworker. I think he carried positive feelings for the first 6 months (probably was still in it ). As our marriage got stronger I think his loyalty and feelings shifted back to me. He went through a period where he kept saying he hated her. Now I'd say he is indifferent to her.

I spent a fair bit of time thinking about what OW had over me. Youth, energy,a positive attitude and admiration towards H were probably the contributing factors. I had become depressed , complacent, and boring. I rejected him sexually for ages and withheld admiration and appreciation from him. Now...I've tried to become the wife he would kill for. Hope I've nailed it. Golf? Check. Billiards? Check. Sex? Check. Smoke a little? Check. Up for anything fun? Check. Express admiration and appreciation? Check. Pride in myself? Check. Leave all my insecurities at the door? Improvement noted….


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