# Finally I came out of FOG and ran away of 14 years of marriage



## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Here is my Story:

I have been married for 14 years and now have a 8 years of son. What a bumpy road of my marriage when I look back. I just informed my lawyer to file the divorce for me.

My wife can be a lovely and caring friend. That was what let me fell into love with. 

But Just after marriage, my wife began to show her other side of personality. She dominated over me on every issues. Years ago, after quarreling, in a rage, she threatened to jump over the window from the 2nd floor. I was frightened and was forced to apology to her and literally kowtow to her in order to persuade her not to endanger herself. 

After my son was born, things turned to worse. She treated our son as hers only, blaming me not a good dad on trivial things. I have been working for 6-7 days a week. She was a housewife. Yet, she claims she is REALLY busier than me and I need to appreciate her all the time. 

I bought a good size house as she wanted 4 years ago. That did not satisfy her for long. I bough her a luxury car for her last month by trading in my oldest car. I am now driving her old car to work and she keeps the new luxury car at home. She even did not appreciate it. Just last night, when I got back home late at night and went to eat at kitchen, she was so mad at me for not answering her call that she threw out my food into trash. 

I had enough. I am filing for the divorce now. I do not see any chance for us to go back to a dream land of happy marriage. Am I correct?


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

In 14 years of marriage, I keep thinking of divorce in every year. The main reason I stayed for 14 years is that it was hard for me to break my marriage wow knowing that she wants to stay in the marriage anyway. I used to believe that she still love me and just has personality issues. 

But over the years, I learned everyday that she is just pretending to be weak and vulnerable and intentionally taking advantage of my good will. She is a master of controlling person. She is in fact very dominate, " I always right and you always wrong" kind of person. When she fights, it is frightening to normal person. She throws away thing, make hysterical loud sound, and pretends to be hurt like " I have a terrible headache", " My stomach hurt", " it is hurt so much that I am going to die". In the last few months, she has went to hospital emergency room 3 times for nothing. She claims discomfort so many times and her primary doctor had her checks so many times that she recently got fired as a patient.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

I believe in " Love is forever" and I would not abandon her if I feel any love she left for me and we could have a normal family. It is a extremely hard decision for me to seek divorce alone. I am really sad about it, but at the same time, I see no way out but part away with her. I do not feel her as wife. She is a just controlling person that need me to fill in her void: money, labor and fame. I am being used by her. I am sad to admit this and this let me feel a little depressed.


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## Orpheus (Jul 6, 2012)

Sounds like you have a lot to bite off. First, you've got to stop buying your way to affection. What is the dialogue like between you? Are either of you in therapy? CT?

If you truly believe divorce is the next step... is there any way you can return the new car you bought to the dealer. Otherwise it sounds like you'll be paying for a car that is parked in somebody else's driveway.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

I know I am weak now. But I also know I am doing the right thing. I have told her about divorce millions of times and have always gave her the second chance. She now believe she can HANDLE me and ignore my warnings. I used to hope she can change or the problems between us can go away with time. I am really stupid in this regard.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Orpheus said:


> Sounds like you have a lot to bite off. First, you've got to stop buying your way to affection. What is the dialogue like between you? Are either of you in therapy? CT?
> 
> If you truly believe divorce is the next step... is there any way you can return the new car you bought to the dealer. Otherwise it sounds like you'll be paying for a car that is parked in somebody else's driveway.


She like to feel like a queen in front of her friends. Big house, luxury car, a kid with good grade, a husband with a doctor title fit the bill. She said she was a queen when she was a child, and every kids was jealous about her. She really regard her old family ( dad, mom , brothers) is noble, while almost every other families around are inferior. I bought things she like to boost her self image. 

Communication between us do occur, but not always genuine. We are lack of trust toward each other, although I did place blind trust in her before. 

We are not in therapy. I really think this is her personality issue. I am a doctor myself and I read lots about things in related fields. I do not think therapy can be any good as both of us do not believe in it. 

Therapy may solve a communication problem, but it can not change a person's personality. 

I am willing to foot the burden of paying the car. I am not very concerns about the money. The failure of the marriage weights hard on me. I am willing to work over time to dearth to earn my family back. But sadly this is precisely I can not get.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

tell her she is being a bad girl and that she is grounded. Take her car away in a way that it seems like a big issue. like jack it up and take of the rims.


Next time she threatens to jump off anything and kill herself tell her to hang on because you have to go get the video camera. Im willing to bet she doesnt do it.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

From child to adult, lots of people around me, working or studying with me, said I am a smart person and an easy going person. Many are puzzled by how awkward I have been handing my marriage problems. Many friends just urge me to make up many mind and stop the painful cycle of "quarreling and fighting -thinking of divorce-improved-quarreling and fighting again". Very Painful indeed! I am smart at working and studying, but look how stupid I am in the middle of a dysfunctional marriage!


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

bribrius said:


> tell her she is being a bad girl and that she is grounded. Take her car away in a way that it seems like a big issue. like jack it up and take of the rims.
> 
> 
> Next time she threatens to jump off anything and kill herself tell her to hang on because you have to go get the video camera. Im willing to bet she doesnt do it.


You are right. She admitted that she would not jump off the window. Just to bring me down to my knees. I did kowtow to her to save her. 

I just could not understand how a loved one can do this to you! I would never, ever do this to her. Even as now I am planning my divorce, I want to leave her the house and alimony to have a comfort life without working, not luxury life as she hope for though.
I plan to have the leaking roof fixed this weekend as she will not fix for herself. She really has a low IQ in fixing things but a high IQ in controlling people

The things is, every time she fight loudly, it frighten my son. My heart also beat too fast. I would rather not to confront her. She always threaten to call police when I fight back. It is embarrassing for me even to fight with her. I feel I am sinking to the same low level as her. This is another reason I want to leave her as I see myself turning into someone I do not want to be.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

My wife was over due for a reality check. Her parents are over protecting her and always agreeable with her. Her dad even told me, " You do not realize that how lucky you are by marrying my daughter. She is the most beautiful, the most tender and kind girl in the world with a heart." I was stunned and speechless when listening. In the WORLD? I can not claim I see all the people in the world yet.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

sounds like she is just too much of a woman for you to handle.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

When my wife speaks, she seems so confident about herself that anything critical about her is wrong and intentional personal attack. She claims that I am in such a lower level that I do not have the credibility to criticize her. Of course, only her old family have the credibility.

She once claimed my gene was inferior to hers. Now she stop that absurd claim after being criticized by her friends. My angry did not stop her. It is the opinion of her friends that stop her. This says something about our relationship.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

bribrius said:


> sounds like she is just too much of a woman for you to handle.


Yes. I am over confident about my ability to make my marriage work. I used to think that as long as two people is in love, they should solve their marriage problems unless they are dummies. Man, I am wrong.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

It is interesting to observe how brilliant of her to handling me so many years. Yet, after divorce, how stupid she is to force a loving, hard working husband like me to leave. I am a dedicated husband as I never have any affairs in spite of my unsatisfactions of my marriage. I do try a lots to solve our problems. But she is not enthusiastic about this. She think it is ALL my faults and she wants to keep this way any way.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Someone suggest that I might ask too much in my marriage. After all, both of us have no affairs, already settle down with house and cars and a kid. What else you hope for? Why tear the family apart and expose everyone to pain? Are you sure you would get a better marriage the second time?

But I feel I need to be honest. This is a dysfunctional marriage and failed many attempts of repair. There are no true love between us. The real reason my wife stay in the marriage is that she NEEDS me, not love me. I can not live in such marriage. I would be a liar and coward if I stay. I need to let go of my heart. I need be ME. 

In the 14 years of marriage, I have been working hard and went through a lot to reach this stage now. My destination, my goal and my dream is a happy family, secure and loving. It is so sad that I get here only to seek a divorce. It is the biggest failure of my life. I am the LOSER, after all.

I pray to GOD to help me go through this. I pray to GOD to help my wife and my son to go through this, safe and sound. I hope my soon-to-be-ex wife has a happy life in front of her and turn into a better person than she is now.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Your wife has serious issues and you have allowed her to push you around for a long time. We teach people how to treat us. It's most likely that she married you because she recognized that she could push you around.

So now what are you going to do?

Please start by seeing an attorney. Find out your rights and set out a plan for the steps you need to follow through to get a divorce.

While I understand that right now you are feeling generous, I think you have no idea how nasty and greedy person in her position can be.

The issues of child support, spousal support, property division, etc are all dependent on where you life. California is one of the worst... there she could get spousal support for half the duration of the marrige... or 7 years. It's considered rehabilative. Thus giving her a chance to get a college degreed or some other job skill.

If you give her the car and the house you could get stuck paying for them in addition to spousal support.

With assets... you might have to give her 50% of everything you have accumulated.

You will be hit very hard by this divorce. So I think you really need to see an attorney before you start promising to support her in a life of luxury for the rest of her life. 

YOu do want a life after this divorce, right? You will need money to have that new life. Suppose you meet a new woman who will love you in the right way... how could you marry her if you are giving everything to your current wife?


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

My dad died last year. In his final days, I talked with him every week by phone. Yet. My wife disproved my talking and said it was too long. One time, she even argue loudly to stop me talking and embarrassed my dad. I still wonder why she had no respect and no sympathies toward my dad with a terminal lung cancer. After his death, my wife shed no tears, showed no sorrow. But when one of her friends dies, she cried several time and went her way to help his family. I can only draw a conclusion that she does not belong to me and my family. Sadly she stick with me most because of my money and easy-to-control, or fear of divorce.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Your wife has serious issues and you have allowed her to push you around for a long time. We teach people how to treat us. It's most likely that she married you because she recognized that she could push you around.
> 
> So now what are you going to do?
> 
> ...


Thank you for your advice. I did talked to several attorneys 3 months ago when I moved out. I know I will lost BIG after the divorce. I am living in Massachusetts. I will lost 50% of asset with possible 10 years of alimony and even longer child support. I am ready to take it according to the law. I can live. I have no plan for 2nd marriage now although I know I need to keep my heart open. I need to heal first from the divorce and I expect it to last at least 2 years. 

Ironically, my wife used to expect 70% of my asset and 70% of my salary. She was shocked to learn from lawyers that she had less. She think of this as unfair. In order to avoid divorce, she soften his attitude after this and we have a 3 months of peaceful time. But last night, her temper burst again and we are now in the square one. I need to go through this without her interruption.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

I just got a call from my wife. First she used my son to ask me to go back home. Then she blame me last night for going back late. She said she was not afraid of divorce. She threaten me many times as to: sell the house and disappear so I can not find my son, disrupt my work so I can not work any more, badmouth me at court and in front of friends so everybody knows I am bad (reputation is important for my work too), even claim I misuse her during past fight and send me to jail, etc. Anyway, she said to let me 'lost everything" in the divorce. Tough girl, is she?


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Although I try to be brave and stand on my own, I am sure my wife has some tricks to play to foul divorce. It will be interesting to see how a mastermind like her can play the game this time. She has won this game in 14 years and has a record she would be proud of herself. But next week I will bring my marriage certificate and sign a contract with a divorce attorney. 

It worth noting that I have no cash now after buying her a new car. I will use my line of credit to go through this. I prepare to be serious hurt in the process. But as a MAN, live free or die, I will not yield to a nasty marriage and hopefully I am smart enough to minimize the hurt felt by both of us. 

I think my wife can have two side: an evil side and a human side. In a nasty fight, with an evil spirit, it would hurt both of us and kid badly. I pray to GOD to rescue her and let her show the human side, which I think is her true color. 

For me, I tell myself I need to do this. I need the divorce to free my spirit, to restore my confidence and integrity, to live my way to be a dedicate dad, son, brother, ex-husband and hopefully a husband again. After all, I need a happy and loving family and a supportive and understanding wife if I can get.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

have you tried giving her a hug?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

loveisforever said:


> I just got a call from my wife. First she used my son to ask me to go back home. Then she blame me last night for going back late. She said she was not afraid of divorce.


Now that she knows she has access to more money staying married, you bet she is afraid of divorce. Her words are nonsense.


loveisforever said:


> She threaten me many times as to: sell the house and disappear so I can not find my son,


Well if she puts the house of for sale I guess that would be a giveaway that she has diabolical plans. She cannot sell the house with you going along with the sale or a court order to do so.

As for her running away with your son, that is called kidnapping. This is a good reason to file for divorce as soon as possible. Right now either of you has the right to take your son anywhere. Once you file for divorce, you can have your attorney put in language that states that she cannot take your son out of state without written permission and so forth. So if she kidnaps him and runs off… you could end up with automatic 100% custody.


loveisforever said:


> disrupt my work so I can not work any more,


This one is funny. She wants your money. If she disrupts your job, how is she going to get your money? If she brings this up again remind her of this. Remind her that if you lose your job she will have to go out and get a job to support herself and your son because you will not be paying spousal support or child support.


loveisforever said:


> badmouth me at court and in front of friends so everybody knows I am bad (reputation is important for my work too),


She will not get a chance to bad mouth you in court. The court does not want to hear adults act like 13 year olds. They will shut her up. I’ve seen spouses try this is court. For example In one case, when things were not going her way, the wife started to cry and said “But he had an affair”. (she forgot to mention that the affair was over 10 years ago and they had reconciled and he’s been a model husband since). The court mediator looked at her and said.. “I’m sure you feel better now that you got that off your chest. Can we get back to the matter at hand now?”

She will most likely tell her attorney all kinds of trash about you. So what. Some of it might even come up in court. Your attorney will know who to handle this kind of nonsense.

On the topic of her telling friends bad stuff… most people won’t care one way or the other. Most people view a spouse bad mouthing the over as bad form.. even while going through a divorce.

You can tell her that if she does seriously damage your reputation it will cause you to earn less money and thus you will have to go back to court to lower child support and spousal support. Plus you can take her to court for slander…. And get lots of money from her. 


loveisforever said:


> even claim I misuse her during past fight and send me to jail, etc.


Did she actually call the cops have you arrested? Or is she just threatening to do this? 


loveisforever said:


> Anyway, she said to let me 'lost everything" in the divorce. Tough girl, is she?


No, she is not a tough girl. She thinks that her alligator mouth will protect her canary ass.

She obviously does not know the law or much about divorce. She’s uses ‘tough girl’ talk to try to threaten you out of divorcing her because she knows that her life style will go down dramatically once you are divorced

And do not offer to give her the house, the car, yada yada. Only give her what is required by law. Save some for yourself so that you can help your son and have things to give to him. You are probably going to have to pay for his college education and maybe even private schools for k-12. So protect yourself and hence his legacy. She will just blow it.

Also keep in mind that a woman like her will most likely remarry pretty quickly or at least live with a man. Make sure your divorce papers say that she loses spousal support when she does this.

She is all words. You will not lose everything in a divorce. You will both lose a lot in the divorce. You might want to remind her of that. Both of your life styles will go down by about 50% because you will be splitting just about everything 50/50.

The family code generally states something about maintaining current life style. That means that the court is supposed to try to make it so that BOTH of out maintain your current lifestyle, not just her. Unless you are filthy rich, neither of you will have the same life style you have right now while you are together. But peace of mind is worth this.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Thank you for tking time for so many info, EleGirl. Thank you for your support. 

I do not think my wife is smart in many ways. Most of her threatening is baseless and empty. I think I can deal with her rough side. 

She does show her soft side every time we are in the brink of divorce. That kill me in the past and hopefully not this time. I know she would be difficult to stand psychologically, let alone financially. I know better now what she is for me is not love, but need. It is unfair for me to be used by her all my life, although she already gets most of it. 

I am very easy to feel her pain and get hooked many times. This is really my weakness. I long for a normal family life. It takes hundreds of cycle of remedy and pain for me to force myself to pull the plug. My heart is bleeding because of my poor son in the middle. I really want the marriage to work but I can not change her and I have failed so many time to repair. All the failures can be traced back to her does-not-care attitude and her canny side of dealing with me.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

loveisforever said:


> Thank you for tking time for so many info, EleGirl. Thank you for your support.
> 
> I do not think my wife is smart in many ways. Most of her threatening is baseless and empty. I think I can deal with her rough side.
> 
> ...


Of course she gets nice and sweet when you say you are going to divorce her. She knows that this will confuse you and keep you around longer. She’s a good manipulator. 

From what you have said about your wife, I know the kind of woman. She learned to use her looks and mind games a long time ago to manipulate people. That's her strength so she's good about it. You seem to be a more open, honest person. So I think it has taken you a long time to completely understand what you are up against. It’s hard for a person like you to comprehend what makes a person like her click and what goes on in her mind.

My suggestion is that you get an attorney and let the attorney handle the divorce. That is what they are paid for. Don’t you talk to her directly about the settlement. It would be a lot cheaper to use a mediator but it’s unlikely that the two of you can compromise. She will push you and push you until she gets what she wants.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bribrius said:


> have you tried giving her a hug?


Aw...

You know when I first read your posts I was very annoyed by you. I'm sure you remember the thread. But the more I read your stuff the more the good in you comes out. 

Unfortunately a hug does not solve a lot of marital problems. If only it would.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Just a quick update:
My wife persuaded me to go back home last night by telling me to talk about divorce. She said I use divorce to get what I want. This is a annoying judgement she passes on me. I have denied it several times and it never gets across her. 

Nevertheless, she asked what I could offer in the divorce, said better settle it on our own to save attorney fees for kid. I asked her to read the email again I sent her 3 months ago. In that email, I listed all our assets for dividing in half and my proposal of alimony and child support. She said she has not taken it serious and felt being pushed again by me for divorce, which she has no time to prepare for. It is amazing for her to say that as I spoke divorce to her hundreds of times, wrote to her several times, even called her parents last year about my intention for divorce. Yet, she claimed a big surprise. She wanted me to feel guilty about it. She said I should. 

What I offer is the house, the new car, the monthly payments that can make her live comfortably for 10 years without working, kid's future college tuition on me. She had a master degree and worked before. She can work but picky.

She was not impressed and asked for more. But never showed her bottom line. She criticized me for my preferring money over child, my cold heart, my betrayal. 

One thing that harden my feeling is that she always regard our son as hers only. She said I could not be trusted to keep any promises regarding my son. She used to say I do not love my son and was shut up by my angry response. But here is again. I can shut up her mouth to say that but I can not shut up her mind to think of me in that way. I see no way out for me but divorce.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

My wife made an interesting point last night by pionting out that the 50% splitt of our assett is not fair for her. This is because I have been giving away some money to my disabled and bed-ridden mom to support her every year. She consider 50% of that money belongs to her. I want to ask you guys: Is it fair that I consider it an obligation for me to support my mom and I have been working extra hours for it and it should not consider my wife's income? 

Her is another one reason for me to go divorce: She regards everything I earn belongs to her. So she is upset that my parents got some money from me that should be hers. She shows disdain to my parents and treats them like beggars. 

It seems an irony for me to realize that she actually is feeling I owe her money in our ongoing marriage because of my support to my parents, although I am the bread earner. That is why she looks down on me. It is because I have a sin of coming from a poor family. 

Sadly enough, I can not change where I came from. The only thing I can do is let the unhappy and victim-like wife go.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Lots of time I am thinking: Why I need the divorce? Is it truly unavoidable and right thing to do? If I am smart enough, kind and caring enough and paying enough attention to details, will the marriage change to better? What is my part of responsibility and my part of contribution to this failed marriage? Am I simply the wrong mate for her, so she just shows her nasty side to me only? Had I done differently, would she be a lovely wife? Is it an unavoidable fate for our marriage, considering my family background, her family background, my personality and her personality? Is GOD just sends her to punish me to be humble, or to learn from my miseries?


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

I feel your pain. I just recently moved out after 18 years! No suicide threats or luxury cars my past, but otherwise VERY similar stories.

Hang in there, man! You can't clap with one hand! If she's not willing to work with you to fix things, there's little hope of improvement!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

hurtnohio said:


> I feel your pain. I just recently moved out after 18 years! No suicide threats or luxury cars my past, but otherwise VERY similar stories.
> 
> Hang in there, man! You can't clap with one hand! If she's not willing to work with you to fix things, there's little hope of improvement!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you.the pain seems necessary for me to go through. I am torn by various feelings now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

loveisforever said:


> My wife persuaded me to go back home last night by telling me to talk about divorce. She said I use divorce to get what I want.


You have told us that when you get upset with your wife that you often say that you just want a divorce. To be honest with you, I think you do use the threat of divorce to end arguments. Why do you keep bringing up divorce over and over again and yet never get a divorce? She is right that you use divorce as a way to get an upper hand in an argument.


If my husband constantly threatened me with divorce I would leave him because it’s mean and abusive to make me constantly feel like he does not love me enough to help make me feel secure in our marriage.




loveisforever said:


> This is a annoying judgement she passes on me. I have denied it several times and it never gets across her.


I’m on your side here and I think you use it to get an upper hand from what you have said here.




loveisforever said:


> Nevertheless, she asked what I could offer in the divorce, said better settle it on our own to save attorney fees for kid. I asked her to read the email again I sent her 3 months ago. In that email, I listed all our assets for dividing in half and my proposal of alimony and child support. She said she has not taken it serious and felt being pushed again by me for divorce, which she has no time to prepare for. It is amazing for her to say that as I spoke divorce to her hundreds of times, wrote to her several times, even called her parents last year about my intention for divorce. Yet, she claimed a big surprise. She wanted me to feel guilty about it. She said I should.


She does not believe you when you say you want a divorce because you have spoken of it hundreds of time and never filed for divorce. Why should she take your threats of divorce seriously after you threaten hundreds of times and do nothing?




loveisforever said:


> What I offer is the house, the new car, the monthly payments that can make her live comfortably for 10 years without working, kid's future college tuition on me.


How did you come up with your offer? Did you talk to an attorney before making any offer?


My suggestion for college tuition is that each of you pays for his tuition, books and room/board in proportion to your income at the time he’s in college. This is more equitable. That’s the agreement my ex and I have in our divorce. My ex is a physician. I’m an engineer. He makes much more than I do. So now we have ignored our divorce decree and he pays our son’s the tuition and books. I pay for all of the room/board as my son lives with me still. He is attending a university in our city. We both give him gas and spending money. But I think I am a much more reasonable person than your wife is. So you need some good guidelines to protect yourself on this.


I found an online alimony calculator for Massachusetts. Collaborative Divorce & Mediation, Natick, Framingham, Boston & Worcester, Massachusetts


From what it says the maximum you would have to pay her support is 9.8 years. Since she has a Master’s degree you can probably push for “Rehabilitative Alimony” and only have to pay for 5 years.


It also mentions “Rehabilitative Alimony” is the periodic payment of support to a recipient spouse who is expected to become economically self-sufficient by a predicted time, such as, without limitation, reemployment; completion of job training; or receipt of a sum due from the payer spouse pursuant to a judgment.


Here are the parameters I used and the results for 2 different scenarios. Note how much less you pay once she is working. Keep in mind that child support is not tax deductible to you. But alimony is tax deductible to you and she has to pay income taxes on it.


Length of marriage = 14yrs
Your income = $2000 weekly
Her income = $0 weekly
Physical Custody = shared
Child support = 426 weekly = $1768 monthly 
Alimony = $478- $557 weekly = $2071- $2414 monthly	

Length of marriage = 14yrs
Your income = $2000 weekly
Her income = $1000 weekly
Physical Custody = shared
Child support = 183 weekly = $793 monthly 
Alimony = $245 - $286 weekly = $1,062 - $1,239 monthly


It’s very hard here to comment on what you are offering because we have no clue on the very important details.
•	For example you are offering the house. That really tells us nothing.
•	If the house has a lot of equity then you are being foolish to hand over your half of the equity to her. 
•	If the house has no equity to speak of then she will need to refinance the house in her name and it might cost her thousands to do this. Or she might not be able to get it refinanced since she does not have a job.
•	If the mortgage on the house is higher than value of the house (very common these days) then you are not really giving her anything but debt. Refinancing could be impossible unless she can get one of the new types of loans that forgive some of the debt.




loveisforever said:


> She had a master degree and worked before. She can work but picky.


Well she can be as picky as she wants, she will have to get a job and support herself if she wants to live anywhere near what she thinks she is entitled to. In this economy she might not be able to be so picky.



loveisforever said:


> She was not impressed and asked for more. But never showed her bottom line. She criticized me for my preferring money over child, my cold heart, my betrayal.
> 
> 
> One thing that harden my feeling is that she always regard our son as hers only. She said I could not be trusted to keep any promises regarding my son. She used to say I do not love my son and was shut up by my angry response. But here is again. I can shut up her mouth to say that but I can not shut up her mind to think of me in that way. I see no way out for me but divorce.


She is playing games with you as she knows that all she has to do is to push the “you do not love your son” button and you will get upset. Once you are upset she can control the conversation. When she does this in the future just ignore her. Or just ask her “does saying that make you feel better?” then ignore her.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

loveisforever said:


> My wife made an interesting point last night by pionting out that the 50% splitt of our assett is not fair for her. This is because I have been giving away some money to my disabled and bed-ridden mom to support her every year. She consider 50% of that money belongs to her. I want to ask you guys: Is it fair that I consider it an obligation for me to support my mom and I have been working extra hours for it and it should not consider my wife's income?


You will need to talk to an attorney on this one. She might have a claim here. It all depends on state law. 

The fact is that in many states they do consider all income to be community income. But that does not mean that you cannot give help to support your parents. Because your wife is talking this angle I think you need to rethink what you are offering her. Tell her that you will stick to what the law says each of you are entitled to.

For example 50% of all assets.. that means she gets only 50% of the equity in the home and only 50% of the equity in the fancy car she is driving. And only 50% of the home furnishings, etc. 50% of the value of your 401K & retirement (from the years you have been married to her only).

Alimony as “rehabilitative alimony” for 5 years only. 

Then if your attorney says she has a right to recoup 50% of what you gave to support your parents you can negotiate for part of your equity in the house. 


loveisforever said:


> Her is another one reason for me to go divorce: She regards everything I earn belongs to her. So she is upset that my parents got some money from me that should be hers. She shows disdain to my parents and treats them like beggars.


Well 50% of everything you earn does belong to her by law. That is what you agreed to when you married her. Just tell her that you gave them the $$ out of your 50% of your income. I’ll bet that your wife spends a lot more on herself than you do on yourself. Is this true?


loveisforever said:


> It seems an irony for me to realize that she actually is feeling I owe her money in our ongoing marriage because of my support to my parents, although I am the bread earner.


Well you are the bread winner and she has spent 14 years taking care of you and your son. So, yes she has a stake in the income and assets from our marriage. 


loveisforever said:


> That is why she looks down on me. It is because I have a sin of coming from a poor family.
> Sadly enough, I can not change where I came from. The only thing I can do is let the unhappy and victim-like wife go.


There is nothing sad about coming from a poor family. You are story of success. Look how far you have come. Your parents are heroes for raising a child in poverty who has done so well for himself. Ignore your wife’s nonsense. The biggest problem I can see that you have is that you pay attention to her nonsense and let it get to you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

By the way, do no forget that in divorce you split everything 50/50. that means that she gets to pay 50% of all the debts. Does she realize this?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

loveisforever said:


> Lots of time I am thinking: Why I need the divorce? Is it truly unavoidable and right thing to do? If I am smart enough, kind and caring enough and paying enough attention to details, will the marriage change to better? What is my part of responsibility and my part of contribution to this failed marriage? Am I simply the wrong mate for her, so she just shows her nasty side to me only? Had I done differently, would she be a lovely wife? Is it an unavoidable fate for our marriage, considering my family background, her family background, my personality and her personality? Is GOD just sends her to punish me to be humble, or to learn from my miseries?


can you get her to go to counseling with you?


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> By the way, do no forget that in divorce you split everything 50/50. that means that she gets to pay 50% of all the debts. Does she realize this?


Can I give you my exes phone number?? Are you able to tell her this?

Sure as fvck won't listen to me!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

UpnDown said:


> Can I give you my exes phone number?? Are you able to tell her this?
> 
> Sure as fvck won't listen to me!


What? She's not paying her half of the bills? That is the down fall isn't it.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Thank you, EleGirl. It is amazing to me that you knows so much. Lots of your opinions forced me to think hard. 

On why I told my wife divorce so many times without backing up. I think it is due to my weakness and my wife's skills. Every time I said it, I mean it. Then my wife would turn to a lovely caring spouse. Than it is hard for me to push her off. She does it in a persistent way. I just push her back tonight only after using harsh languages and rude behavior that I feels bad about. Lots of times when coping with her, I find myself turn to such kind of person that I am ashamed of. 

Now I realize that I am weak in dealing with such stress. I yielded to her when she was nasty enough to scare me. I yielded to her when she showed vulnerable side and willingness to compromise ( she never admit she has any faults though). I yielded to her when she keep making request hundred of times. She is good at brain washing me too. 

Of course, the most important reason is that divorce itself is painful. The most painful thing in it is to get over with the fact that my wife is not the spouse I used to think and I love to believe. Only pain after pain can bring me to reality gradually. The second thing related is the guilty feeling to my kid and my value system. So I feel I need to be generous in the divorce to help me get a little relief from it. 

I am a person that is easy to forget and forgive. It takes hundreds of painful cycles to build up enough memory for me to carry the divorce process through. 

So I must admit that I do care about her. I try to do my best to understand her. It really take a long long time for me to convince myself that she does not REALLY love me and there is REALLY no way out for our marriage.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> By the way, do no forget that in divorce you split everything 50/50. that means that she gets to pay 50% of all the debts. Does she realize this?


She is still in self denial about the divorce and has not given enough time for the details yet. But she knows the general principles as she has consulted a lawyer.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

My primarily offer is just what I think I want to do. My wife has not showed any interests in it. It looks like this will go to the hand of the attorney.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

It sounds like your wife does not want a divorce. That's why she is ignoring the divorce details she gave you. Keep in mind that if she can stall you for another 4-5 years you could end up having to pay her support for the rest of her life and she would never have to get a job if she felt she could live on the support you give her.

I've seen the dependent spouse (male and female) wait out like that so that they can get life long alimoney. 

If you are going to get a divorce now is the time to do it.

When negotiating a divorce remember that you are not offering to give your wife a gift. She has the legal right to half of everything and a certain amount of support.

Always start with a settlement offer that is ONLY what she would get according to the law. Why? Because she will push for more than you start with no matter what you offer.

Look at what is going on now. What you have suggested as a settlement is generous and yet your wife wants more. She not only wants more but is basicly threatening that if you do not give her more than she is entitled to she is going to run up legal fees.

And rest assured that she is is going to ask for the judge to force you to pay her legal fees. If she does make sure that instead of you paying the fees out of your half of community assets, that her legal fees are paid out of her half of the community assets. 

If she thinks she is wasting your money she will be likely to drive up the legal fees. If her legal fees come out of her half of the assets then she will be more frugal and protect her money.

As for trying to fix your marriage.. that's up to you. From what you say, it does not sound like your wife is the kind of person who would make the necessary changes.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

That is right. My wife has a dominate personality and actually thinks she can HANDLE me like a pet. I am a person a fiend labeled as "people pleaser', and I am happy to make others happy. I am still live in our home and it is a daily challenge for me to not to fall into her traps. I feel I grow every day this way and I can better understand her now. The more I know her, the more I am determined to leave her. 

Just give an example. She insisted on giving me a message on my backpain I told her weeks ago. Back then, she was very reluctant to even move a finger. Last night, to head off my divorce call, she did it enthusiastically even under my disprove. She seems happy to avoids intimacy with me. But last night, she sneaked into my bed even after I threw her pillow away (I am not proud of myself of this bad behavior, but even this was not enough to fend off her). 

So she knows how to please me. But she is not willing to do it voluntarily as she does not love me. But she can do it as a tool to draw me in once I am thinking of divorce.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Aw...
> 
> You know when I first read your posts I was very annoyed by you. I'm sure you remember the thread. But the more I read your stuff the more the good in you comes out.
> 
> Unfortunately a hug does not solve a lot of marital problems. If only it would.


Thanks.

i just try to keep it simple in terms of reconciliation and fixing marriage problems before they continue to escalate. Instead of divorce wars i promote remembering you are looking at your spouse not your enemy. Thinking perhaps in my being naive if one side is willing to bring the relationship back to center with some love and support the other may not keep it in the battle ground and give in also.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

loveisforever said:


> That is right. My wife has a dominate personality and actually thinks she can HANDLE me like a pet. I am a person a fiend labeled as "people pleaser', and I am happy to make others happy. I am still live in our home and it is a daily challenge for me to not to fall into her traps. I feel I grow every day this way and I can better understand her now. The more I know her, the more I am determined to leave her.
> 
> Just give an example. She insisted on giving me a message on my backpain I told her weeks ago. Back then, she was very reluctant to even move a finger. Last night, to head off my divorce call, she did it enthusiastically even under my disprove. She seems happy to avoids intimacy with me. But last night, she sneaked into my bed even after I threw her pillow away (I am not proud of myself of this bad behavior, but even this was not enough to fend off her).
> 
> So she knows how to please me. But she is not willing to do it voluntarily as she does not love me. But she can do it as a tool to draw me in once I am thinking of divorce.


so she volunteered to return to your marriage bed and please you?
Im not sure how this is a bad thing. 
Perhaps instead of paranoia you should have made love to her and gave her some positive reinforcement so she continues this type of giving. 
And yeah, women can use this as a tool. But they still are giving it it isnt JUST a tool.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Doing it as a tool to get what she wants. Just keep that thought in your mind.

I hate to advocate for divorce as I do believe that most marriages can be rebuilt. But this requires that both spouses be enthusiastically on board and willing to make the necessary changes. But from what you have said, I sounds like your wife is not willing to do this…. I mean willing to make real changes.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bribrius said:


> Thanks.
> 
> i just try to keep it simple in terms of reconciliation and fixing marriage problems before they continue to escalate. Instead of divorce wars i promote remembering you are looking at your spouse not your enemy. Thinking perhaps in my being naive if one side is willing to bring the relationship back to center with some love and support the other may not keep it in the battle ground and give in also.


This is of course a very wise approach. But there does come a time in some (thank God not all) marriages when it becomes clear that the other spouse will not participate in the repair of the marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bribrius said:


> so she volunteered to return to your marriage bed and please you?
> Im not sure how this is a bad thing.
> Perhaps instead of paranoia you should have made love to her and gave her some positive reinforcement so she continues this type of giving.
> And yeah, women can use this as a tool. But they still are giving it it isnt JUST a tool.


He has said that this is a pattern with her. She is cold and manipulative for long periods of time. The he blows up and tells her he's divorcing. At that point she does like she did last night and becomes all loving. Then in a day or two she's back to the cold/manipulative behavior... putting him down, refusing any contact, etc. And she will not work on a long-term solution to the marital problems.


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## Posse (Jan 30, 2012)

loveisforever said:


> From child to adult, lots of people around me, working or studying with me, said I am a smart person and an easy going person. Many are puzzled by how awkward I have been handing my marriage problems. Many friends just urge me to make up many mind and stop the painful cycle of "quarreling and fighting -thinking of divorce-improved-quarreling and fighting again". Very Painful indeed! I am smart at working and studying, but look how stupid I am in the middle of a dysfunctional marriage!


You are simply too close to the issue and are heavily emotionally invested in it-situations look so much clearer to others who can look at it with the benefit of distance.

As a physician you don't treat yourself or your family for serious issues, right? You don't treat them for the same reason you are having problems wrapping your hands around your marriage-emotional involvement.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

In our 14 years of marriage, not one year passed without I think of divorce. Every time I backed off because I am seriously about marriage. Imaging how many hours I have spent in this issue, I would have got several PHD's for my involvement. I call it a FOG for me. It is hard to understand the rationals behind my wife. 

I am not perfect, but I am proud of myself that: 
I always put family value the upfront,
I had no affairs and without my wife, I would still be a virgin,
I always try hard to think from her point of view,
I always give me a reasonable doubt about myself to be not over-confident

I am willing to accommodate my wife in many ways, but I can not stay in the marriage realizing that she is not loving me and only to dominate me to get what she actually cares about. Without the feeling of love, I know her appetite for material life was endless. I think it is because she dose not love me and does not feel the love from me that she is treating me like this. She probably would prefer lots of our friends over me. She came to tears when one of our friends died and show no sympathy toward my dad in his death of cancer. She talked many times that how wonderful other husbands are, and feels frustrated and down to stuck with me. It is like she is having an EA without a real OM. She has not got such an opportunity. But her mind is long for someone new, rich and more handle-able. She is scared when facing the divorce like many other WS. That she is against divorce does not mean that she loves me, does not mean that she is happy with current marriage. She simple is scared and not ready yet. She simple goes against a solution that does not make sense to her in her cold-heart gain-and-loss calculation.

This morning she criticized me to be a hypocrite because she saw me kind to our friend's son in front of the dad, but not so good after he left. This allegation shocked me. First, this is not true and has to be a gross misunderstanding. Second, this is come from my wife. It seems that she pays more attention and sympathized more with outside friends than with me. I told her many times, "If you do not love me, just let me go."


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

I have read lots of stories about marriage torn apart by EA and PA in this forum. For many of them , the divorce is the only good solution. It is worth noting that many of such marriages are mired in a miserable state for a long time before the affairs break in. These affairs are actually served as a wake-up call to end the unnecessary sufferings. My question is: why we wait for so long to divorce? If we stick to our value more closely, if we guide our integrity more conscientiously, can we pick up the divorce signals early enough with confident before any affairs and go ahead to severe the toxic bondage?

Although I am pretty sure of no-affair-yet from my wife, but I feel she is like one. She is just lack of such an opportunity. By divorcing her but still offer an economical buffer, I may actually do her a good service to end such unhappy marriage and set up a new chapter for her life. She will have new risks and new opportunities after divorce. It is fair, isn't it?


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Posse said:


> You are simply too close to the issue and are heavily emotionally invested in it-situations look so much clearer to others who can look at it with the benefit of distance.
> 
> As a physician you don't treat yourself or your family for serious issues, right? You don't treat them for the same reason you are having problems wrapping your hands around your marriage-emotional involvement.


Yes, lots of my friends are puzzle by how long I have stayed in my marriage within the shadow of divorce. They saw a side of me who is indecisive, weak, in-confident and frankly, not smart at all. Lots of them voiced their concern as: "Just make a decision, man."


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> He has said that this is a pattern with her. She is cold and manipulative for long periods of time. The he blows up and tells her he's divorcing. At that point she does like she did last night and becomes all loving. Then in a day or two she's back to the cold/manipulative behavior... putting him down, refusing any contact, etc. And she will not work on a long-term solution to the marital problems.


I was disheartened by my wife's attitude toward our current state of marriage as business-as-usual. She said to me she saw nothing wrong with our current marriage. She said I am the one who is not satisfied and should be changed. She said I must be brain washed by my parents and sister to want a divorce. She hates all my old family members-that is a long story.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I think that you are offering your wife more than she is entitled to legally because you are still afraid of her wrath and you think it's a way to buy her off. She will not be satisfied with anything you do. Look at the life she has right now based on your income, and she is still not satisfied. In divorce her life style will go down quite a bit.

She is perfectly capable of supporting herself with the 5 years of rehabilatiative support. Go for that. Remember that you can always give more as a gift. But do not agree to more in the divorce papers. 

If you want to do what is the best for her, give her as little as you can. This will force her to go to work. From work she will get a sense of self pride and she will learn the value of money. She will learn how hard you worked for her.

If you give her enough so that she does not have to work, all she will do is complain after the divorce that you are not giving her enough.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I think that you are offering your wife more than she is entitled to legally because you are still afraid of her wrath and you think it's a way to buy her off. She will not be satisfied with anything you do. Look at the life she has right now based on your income, and she is still not satisfied. In divorce her life style will go down quite a bit.
> 
> She is perfectly capable of supporting herself with the 5 years of rehabilatiative support. Go for that. Remember that you can always give more as a gift. But do not agree to more in the divorce papers.
> 
> ...


What you just said makes sense. I will remember it. But I am afraid of her loosing control if reality is too harsh. She accused me in tears tonight for using her all along and abandoning her now as worthless and useless. I am troubled by hearing that.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

It is so easy for me to fall back, and hard to maintain a "divorce spirit". I need to tell myself why I have to: My wife chooses to ignore my feeling, choose to treat my love to my extended family as negative, choose to resort to violence to dominate. She is too selfish and forget the role of wife. I used to choose to accommodate her against my will, which is a big mistake and reflects my own weakness. I choose to stop it now and I need to go through the divorce process to a bright tomorrow.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Another update. had an appointment with attorney today to give the check. Wife urged me emotionally to stop. She said her brother's family would visit her soon (it was a fact I just learned) and did not want me to ruin her mood now. Promised me to file joint petition after they leave. I want to be decent with her family and cancelled the meting. Attorney got upset because I cancelled him before to give my wife last chance two months ago. Attorney said she is manipulating me.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

STBX = soon to be ex. I will use STBX instead of my wife from now. STBX found this thread and was furious with me. She said I was so mean to write so many bad words about her. But these words are what I think as is, not to attack her. At least she admitted that she stayed in the marriage just for the kid. She feels like a victim and said she made so much sacrifice. Her living condition is for lots of average person to envy. So her sacrifice must come from her miserable marriage. So in her eyes, I must be so bad and so intolerable for her that she do feel like a rape victim. I felt so sorry about this and offer the divorce once again.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Yes, you are correct.

My ex h treated me horribly! I only put up with it for 2 years. Divorcing him was the best decision I ever made! 

I wasn't planning on remarrying, but I met the man of my dreams. I've been living in a very successful and HAPPY marriage for the last 12 years. It's truly a blessing. 

You know what the right thing to do is. My husband was also married before me. His ex w said he would be a terrible father if they had children. Luckily for me, they divorced. My husband is the best father and role model any child could ask for.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> Yes, you are correct.
> 
> My ex h treated me horribly! I only put up with it for 2 years. Divorcing him was the best decision I ever made!
> 
> ...


Thanks. I love to hear your story. People are different. With my STBX, I worried a lots but my thinking goes nowhere. I hope I could find my other part and the meaning of a happy life.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Your wife has serious issues and you have allowed her to push you around for a long time. We teach people how to treat us. It's most likely that she married you because she recognized that she could push you around.
> 
> So now what are you going to do?
> 
> ...


"We teach people how to treat us. It's most likely that she married you because she recognized that she could push you around." 

Brilliant! Brilliant! Brilliant!

I just realize my part of faults in this failed marriage. I am weak and not confident myself. I am thinking things from her angle too much and lost the whole picture. I was brain washed by her, gradually.

She is a master of brain washing. To push my sister apart, she repeatedly personal-attacks her to me. She is good at spaeking thousands of times to make a lie like a truth. She would be make you very uncomfortable to confront her with facts.

It is my fault that I did not stand by myself, stand by the right thing to do, stand by the red line. I have been teaching her how to handle me all along. She shows no respect of me. Deep down she knows I can be her slaves. It is easy for her to get her way by manipulating me instead of loving me. I have not behave like a MAN. So she has not respect me as a MAN. 

I used to think as lovers, I get her love and respect mutually. I was wrong. It was wrong for me to take her love and respect for granted. I did not EARN them, and I have not got them even now. She is actually a stranger to me but I did not realize it. She has opposite point of view from me for most of the issues.We have been living in a different world in spite of under the same roof. We are not mean to be together right from the start. 

When she met me, she was the oldest among my friends and has not got a serious boyfriend. She was nice more than enough for me to feel flattened and loved when we were dating. She showed a different face after mission accomplished. It's likely that she married me because she recognized that she could handle me easily and comfortably. She handled me so well that I thought it was kind of love.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

loveisforever said:


> I was disheartened by my wife's attitude toward our current state of marriage as business-as-usual. *She said to me she saw nothing wrong with our current marriage. She said I am the one who is not satisfied and should be changed. *


When she says this, the answer to her is that if she cared for you she would be willing to work with you to find out what you need from the marriage and her to be happy and to keep the love in your marriage.

Put this back on her. She is responsible for her own bad attitude.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

loveisforever said:


> What you just said makes sense. I will remember it. *But I am afraid of her loosing control if reality is too harsh. *She accused me in tears tonight for using her all along and abandoning her now as worthless and useless. I am troubled by hearing that.


Don't even start thinking that. This is the image that she has put in your head... she wants you to think of her as someon who cannot survive without you and your money.. 

This way you become her slave and work yourself to death taking care of her.

Let her face reality. That's life and the consequence of mistreating her husband.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

loveisforever said:


> It is so easy for me to fall back, and hard to maintain a "divorce spirit". I need to tell myself why I have to: My wife chooses to ignore my feeling, choose to treat my love to my extended family as negative, choose to resort to violence to dominate. She is too selfish and forget the role of wife. I used to choose to accommodate her against my will, which is a big mistake and reflects my own weakness. I choose to stop it now and I need to go through the divorce process to a bright tomorrow.


When does she use violence against you? What does she do?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

loveisforever said:


> Another update. had an appointment with attorney today to give the check. Wife urged me emotionally to stop. She said her brother's family would visit her soon (it was a fact I just learned) and did not want me to ruin her mood now. Promised me to file joint petition after they leave. I want to be decent with her family and cancelled the meting. Attorney got upset because I cancelled him before to give my wife last chance two months ago. Attorney said she is manipulating me.


When is her brother's family coming to visit? 

Just go see the attorney and have him world on the papers. She will always find a way to get you to put it off.

She mistreats your family but you have to nice to hers? 

Is her brother respectful to you and your family?


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> When she says this, the answer to her is that if she cared for you she would be willing to work with you to find out what you need from the marriage and her to be happy and to keep the love in your marriage.
> 
> Put this back on her. She is responsible for her own bad attitude.


I did challenged her to raise questions and search solutions for our troubled marriage. She just avoid talking about it, change the topic and showed an attitude of " you are wrong, again."

But at a time when she talked with her brother, her tears came down and recalled lots of details that I traumatized her. I am shocked by her outstanding long term memories and the malicious intention she claimed on me. Afterward, when I asked if her allegations against me was her real feeling, she just down played as one time burst of feelings. But I suspected she intentionally hide her true feelings from me. That really troubles me to date.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

loveisforever said:


> I did challenged her to raise questions and search solutions for our troubled marriage. She just avoid talking about it, change the topic and showed an attitude of " you are wrong, again."
> 
> But at a time when she talked with her brother, her tears came down and recalled lots of details that I traumatized her. I am shocked by her outstanding long term memories she demonstrated and the malicious intention she claimed on me. Afterward, when I asked if her allegations against me was her real feeling, she just down played as one time burst of feelings. But I suspect her intentionally hide her true feelings from me. That really trouble me.


In marriage there are 3 truths... her truth, his truth and the truth. Each person sees life through their own perspective. This is one reason that communication is so important.

Why not suggest to her that you want to undertand her point of view better? Tell her that you want to go to counseling with her so that YOU can be a better husband? Tell her that you feel that you need a nutural 3rd party who can help you learn to be a better husband.

Take all of the blame on yourself to start with. See if she will go with you if you put it that way.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> When does she use violence against you? What does she do?


She has certain ways to raise the bar to escalate fighting with me. She may start with bombing me with accusations and raise her voice. Then she try to get my attention by limiting my movement and face me straight. If she is angrier, she may damage things or doing things that humiliate me, like spitting on my face, grabbing and throwing away things on my hand, etc. Very creative sometimes. What she want is the end result: I need to be overwhelmed and discomfort enough for her to think she gets it even.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> When is her brother's family coming to visit?
> 
> Just go see the attorney and have him world on the papers. She will always find a way to get you to put it off.
> 
> ...


She hates my family and try to minimized my contact with my family all the time. She also blames ALL our marriage problems on my parents and sister. She saw nothing wrong with her and all wrong with my side. I do not think she can change this, not by a third party advice. 

Her elder brother will come next week. He is good to me so far. Her younger brother had conflicts with my sister. 

I was very nice to her family members before, but now I am disappointed with their responses. Her young brother and parents blames our marriage problems on me and my family. But I am always be decent with them. My wife was not totally satisfied with me though. She has a habit to put bad intention on me when observing.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

loveisforever said:


> She has certain ways to raise the bar to escalate fighting with me. She may start with bombing me with accusations and raise her voice. Then she try to get my attention by limiting my movement and face me straight. If she is angrier, she may damage things or doing things that humiliate me, like spitting on my face, grabbing and throwing away things on my hand, etc. Very creative sometimes. What she want is the end result: I need to be overwhelmed and discomfort enough for her to think she gets it even.


Do you realize that what she is doing is considered domestic violence?

Breaking things, spitting in your face, throwing things at you are all domestic violence.

You shoud not put up with this. Perhaps you should call the police the next time she does this.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

loveisforever said:


> She hates my family and try to minimized my contact with my family all the time. She also blames ALL our marriage problems on my parents and sister. She saw nothing wrong with her and all wrong with my side. I do not think she can change this, not a


You obviously do not want to be married to her.



Ask your attorney if it's legal for you to put a nanny cam in a place like your living room. Then have converstions with her in there. If she starts the violence you will have it on tape. Then call the police.

Do not tell her that you are filing for divorce. Just go do it. Have her served.

Have your attorney file an interim custody/visitation plan at the same time that he/she files the divorce. Set up 50/50 custody/visitation.

The the day you know that she will be served move out of the house. You do not want to be near this woman when it hits the fan.

Can you go stay with your family? That would give you a good place to have your son when you have him 50% of the time.

I would not be concerned about her brother visiting. Take care of yourself.

The benefit of a divorce for you son is that right now he is learning that marriage is like your current marriage. And your wife can control what he sees/hears. 

When you have him 50% of the time you will get a chance to teach him about a better way of life. You will get to show him that you love him. 

In cases like this, divorce can actually benefit a child.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

"In marriage there are 3 truths... her truth, his truth and the truth. Each person sees life through their own perspective. This is one reason that communication is so important." I love to quote these words. I said these words all the time. I try to understand "her truth" from her point of view. But I realize now I did this too much and I lost "my truth" and get brain washed by her. There are no true communication between us with a genuine intention. She has a pattern to play down my concern, brush off my questioning, change the topic, overwhelming me with her own questions, blaming me " "you first" , "because of you", etc. She is absolutely a master of these skills. It hurts me when she puts straight lies or plays me like a baby. I feel I am forced to divorce her because there are no way out for us .


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Do you realize that what she is doing is considered domestic violence?
> 
> Breaking things, spitting in your face, throwing things at you are all domestic violence.
> 
> You shoud not put up with this. Perhaps you should call the police the next time she does this.


To be honest, I share the blame with domestic violence, too. I was out of control with anger with her before. I know I reach my limit regarding the ability to stay with her. It is dangerous. 

I do not think my wife is bad. She is just selfish, stupid and stubborn , the three "S" I am thinking of frequently. The reason may lies that she was spoiled by her parents and by me too much. I am cutting the cord. I wish her the best and want an amicable divorce if possible. I tell my self," she WAS my wife anyway. She is also my son's mother. So I need to try my best to put a fair ending to our marriage". I will not call police to ruin her life. I take the comfort in believing that the coming divorce is good and fair to her too. It will at least gives her an reality check that she really has not been served before.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

loveisforever said:


> "In marriage there are 3 truths... her truth, his truth and the truth. Each person sees life through their own perspective. This is one reason that communication is so important." I love to quote these words. I said these words all the time. I try to understand "her truth" from her point of view. But I realize now I did this too much and I lost "my truth" and get brain washed by her. There are no true communication between us with a genuine intention. She has a pattern to play down my concern, brush off my questioning, change the topic, overwhelming me with her own questions, blaming me " "you first" , "because of you", etc. She is absolutely a master of these skills. It hurts me when she puts straight lies or plays me like a baby. I feel I am forced to divorce her because there are no way out for us .


Often divorce does feel like that... like the other person forced it through their mistreatment of you.

But at some point a person has to decide what they are willing to put up with in life. You need to set boundaries for yourself.

When I divorced my son's father I attended couseling at a place that helps people with domestic violence in their lives.

During my intake interview the counselor asked me what I wanted to get out of the counseling. I told her that I wanted to find out why I picked an abusive, serial cheater to marry so that I could avoid it in the future.

Her response was that she could give me that answer right then. She told me that good people do not pick abusive people. Instead it is the abuser who picks a good person who has little to no boundaries.

When an abusive person meets someone new they start trying to push the boundaries. And some of us just let it happen. We want to play 'nice'. We make excuses for their behavior, etc. The abuser tries this with different people... and the last one left is the one who will put up with their abuse.

Abusers also tend to be very charming. They can be mean one minute and then turn on the charm the next. They know exactly how much of their abuse their partner will take ... then they turn on the charm to keep the partner from leaving.

So why do they abuse? To keep their partner off balance and to control them. It sounds to me like this is what your wife is doing.

One minute she's crying and the next she really did not mean it, yada yada yada.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

loveisforever said:


> To be honest, I share the blame with domestic violence, too. I was out of control with anger with her before. I know I reach my limit regarding the ability to stay with her. It is dangerous.
> 
> I do not think my wife is bad. She is just selfish, stupid and stubborn , the three "S" I am thinking of frequently. The reason may lies that she was spoiled by her parents and by me too much. I am cutting the cord. I wish her the best and want an amicable divorce if possible. I tell my self," she WAS my wife anyway. She is also my son's mother. So I need to try my best to put a fair ending to our marriage". I will not call police to ruin her life. I take the comfort in believing that the coming divorce is good and fair to her too. It will at least gives her an reality check that she really has not been served before.


This is all good. Get a plan in place and live by your plan. 

If you go into the divorce knowing that you will be fair, then that is the best you can do. She will not be happy and it's likely she will get pretty nasty, but always remember what you wrote above. It's not about being vindictive. It's about getting your sanity back.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Often divorce does feel like that... like the other person forced it through their mistreatment of you.
> 
> But at some point a person has to decide what they are willing to put up with in life. You need to set boundaries for yourself.
> 
> ...


Have I said that I love to quote your message? I would like to said it again. "Abusers also tend to be very charming. They can be mean one minute and then turn on the charm the next. They know exactly how much of their abuse their partner will take ... then they turn on the charm to keep the partner from leaving." My wife has been exactly like this. 

I was puzzled by my STBX's actions, seemed too stupid and make no sense to me at all. I could not believe my eyes that she can turn to evil minutes after being an angel.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

I am keep thinking why STBX is such a person. She does not need to be dominate, negative, cunning and mean to me. If she just be a straightforward girl, our marriage will not have so many problems. She is just too "smart" for me to handle.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

I am reading lots of books these days. Now I know my STBX has NPD: Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Does anyone else in similar situation?


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Why she is a NPD:

1.(obvious) Has a grandiose sense of self-importance. Although she has nothing to boast of, she exaggerates her dad's achievements and talents. She claims all her family members are superior to others around.

2. (obvious) Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success. She counts on me to bring her a life style that stay top of her friends. 

3. (obvious) Believes that she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by her family.

4. (obvious) Requires excessive admiration from me and kid.

5. (obvious) Has a sense of entitlement. She has unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment by me even after divorce. Wants way much alimony money beyond the guide line. 

6. (obvious) Is interpersonally exploitative. She takes advantage of me and kid to achieve her own ends.

7. (obvious) Lacks empathy. She is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of mine.

8. (hidden) Is often envious of others, in the dark. She also believes others are envious of her beauty, talent, success, noble family. 

9. (hidden) Shows arrogant, haughty attitudes. When I complain about her, she just said I was in such a lower level that does not deserve her attention. 

10.(obvious) Reacting to criticism with anger and contempt.

11.(hidden) Being obsessed with oneself. She is so focus on her mini discomfort that she goes to see her doctors enough times for her to let her out of her patient list. 

12. (obvious)Becoming easily hurt and rejected. Many times I was stunted by her furious reaction to my minor-annoying questions. 

13. (hidden) Setting goals that are unrealistic. Here is she want: Not working or work in a favorable environment, tons of money, million dollar house, BMW, nanny at home to cook, lawn company hired to take care of her lawn, travel worldwide, .... Need to marry Bill Gate. 

14. (obvious) Wanting "the best" of everything.

Above all, she looks normal, charming in front of friends always, in front of me most of the time. You just can not be intimate with her and understand her thinking. You are just shocked by her times and again to the point that the world with her is not feeling real.

She is a pathological liar. She lied to herself and me so innocently that to trust her is to trust a ghost.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Whoa dude! 
I think yours was the first story I've read that actually made glad to be rid of my ex wife. Except she had all the signs of Borderline Personality Disorder, fear of abandonment causing either smothering clinginess or emotional abuse and abandonment. 

It's sd really. These types will never be happy in loving supportive relationships because they feel contempt for anyone willing to actually love and put up with their crap. The only way your ex will be happy is if she's being abused by someone who emotionally/physcally beats her like dear old mummy or daddy.

You're in luck! I found a great site that will help you. Shrink4men.com The lady who runs it provides tons of advice for dealing with or divorcing emotionally abusive and crazy exes (both for men and women).

Until we talk again.......

DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT everything she does just in case. Hide your money! And for GOD sakes do not let her hoover you back in by any means necessary.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

loveisforever said:


> Now I know my STBX has NPD: Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Does anyone else in similar situation?


LIF, perhaps your STBX does have strong NPD traits. Keep in mind, however, that most folks having strong traits of one PD also have strong traits of one or two other PDs as well. PDs are not separate diseases but, rather, simply patterns of dysfunctional behavior. Indeed, there is no known disease that causes any of them.

I mention this because many of the behaviors you describe -- e.g., the flipping in ten seconds from loving you to hating you, the fragile sense of self, the temper tantrums, her always being "The Victim," and the black-white thinking -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which Nsweet just mentioned. Like Nsweet, I was married to a BPDer (for 15 years in my case). 

If you would like to see what it is like to live with a BPDer, check out my post in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to excellent online resources. Incidentally, you are very fortunate to have attracted the attention of EleGirl, who has given you some amazingly insightful advice. Take care, LIF.


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## bluelaser (May 26, 2012)

loveisforever said:


> she is just pretending to be weak and vulnerable and intentionally taking advantage of my good will. She is a master of controlling person. She is in fact very dominate, " I always right and you always wrong" kind of person. When she fights, it is frightening to normal person. She throws away thing, make hysterical loud sound, and pretends to be hurt like " I have a terrible headache", " My stomach hurt", " it is hurt so much that I am going to die". In the last few months, she has went to hospital emergency room 3 times for nothing. She claims discomfort so many times and her primary doctor had her checks so many times that she recently got fired as a patient.


Your wife (or STBXW) is suffering from *Munchausen syndrome*. Check it out. All the symptoms seem to fit. It also explains why your wife threatens to kill herself. People with such mental disorders are known to do that. 

Since you are planning on separating this may be of little help but it may help you understand what to expect from her in the future.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

bluelaser said:


> Your wife (or STBXW) is suffering from *Munchausen syndrome*. Check it out. All the symptoms seem to fit. It also explains why your wife threatens to kill herself. People with such mental disorders are known to do that.
> 
> Since you are planning on separating this may be of little help but it may help you understand what to expect from her in the future.


I checked it.

"Munchausen (MOON-chow-zun) syndrome is a serious mental disorder in which someone with a deep need for attention pretends to be sick or gets sick or injured on purpose. People with Munchausen syndrome may make up symptoms, push for risky operations, or try to rig laboratory test results to try to win sympathy and concern."

I am not sure if my wife "pretends to be sick or gets sick". She seems like she does believe she is sick herself. She would be angry if I said "pretend" to her.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Uptown said:


> LIF, perhaps your STBX does have strong NPD traits. Keep in mind, however, that most folks having strong traits of one PD also have strong traits of one or two other PDs as well. PDs are not separate diseases but, rather, simply patterns of dysfunctional behavior. Indeed, there is no known disease that causes any of them.
> 
> I mention this because many of the behaviors you describe -- e.g., the flipping in ten seconds from loving you to hating you, the fragile sense of self, the temper tantrums, her always being "The Victim," and the black-white thinking -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which Nsweet just mentioned. Like Nsweet, I was married to a BPDer (for 15 years in my case).
> 
> If you would like to see what it is like to live with a BPDer, check out my post in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to excellent online resources. Incidentally, you are very fortunate to have attracted the attention of EleGirl, who has given you some amazingly insightful advice. Take care, LIF.


I read the list in "My list of hell". Some similar. Some different.

The most striking thing: 
"I have lost my self confidence"
Same here.

I am lost my self confidence to such degree that I can not make an decision in her objection without back and forth many times.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Are you proceeding with the divorce ?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

loveisforever said:


> I read the list in "My list of hell". Some similar. Some different.


LIF, the link I provided above (http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522) points to my post describing BPD traits. I was suggesting you read my post, not Maybe's "List of Hell" at the beginning of the thread. Did you read my post? If so, did most of the traits sound familiar?


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Uptown,

Thank you for the insightful input. I read it many times. 

"verbal abuse" : No. 

"temper tantrums, inappropriate anger, lack of impulse control": Obvious

"constant blaming, always being the victim": Not obvious. But do constant monitor others to follow her rules

"black-white thinking" : Yes 

"a cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back" : Not obvious. But her anger or mood do appears periodical 

"after the honeymoon period ended" : Yes, change to diferrent person

"has been unhappy since childhood" : Not sure. She said she was spoiled and everyone envied her

"shoehorns her perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations into a B-W dichotomy": Yes, yes, yes

"the feeling of entitlement to all the sacrifices you make and the inability to have a lasting appreciation." : Obsolutely

"99 good things in the week are overshadowed by the 1 mistake I have made" : So true

"This is what happens when you try to argue with a woman who, although very intelligent and knowledgeable, has the emotional development of a four year old. In effect, you are trying to argue with the very angry little girl that is control of her mind. The logical adult part of her mind is being "split off," placed out of reach of her conscious mind. You therefore cannot carry on a calm, rational discussion about any sensitive topic because you have only ten seconds to do so. In that short time, any attempt to discuss sensitive matters will trigger her anger, bringing her child back into the driver's seat. And, with a BPDer, nearly ever issue is considered a "sensitive" issue." : So insightful, thanks

I can't criticise her in any way no matter how I sugar coat it: same here

"For example, when you had a very intimate evening or great weekend together, you likely found her -- the next morning -- creating an argument out of nothing to push you away. For a BPDer, intimacy is experienced as suffocating and engulfing, making her feel as though she is losing her identity by merging into your strong personality. It is a frightening experience in which she feels she is vanishing into thin air. She therefore will feel that you are somehow "controlling" and dominating her (nevermind that she is the controlling one).": I will check if it is true

"Yet, as you back way to give her breathing room, you will eventually trigger her great fear of abandonment. It may take days or weeks for that to occur but, unless the BPDer has split you black permanently, it likely will occur. At that point, she will return behaving extra caring and sweet to pull you back into the R. This is why one hallmark of a BPDer relationship is cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back." : We do have cycles of good and worse relationship

"because she has no stable self image to guide her, she will be wildly interested in something one day and then quickly lose interest." : Can this explain why my wife keep changing the necklaces? She is proud to have half of a hundred of them and keep collecting it.

"Pushes other people away, she can't keep friends for more than 12 months": NO, she is active socially. I frequently feel she place friends before me. She is proud of herself having so many friends. 

"The lack of empathy is another BPD trait. IME, a high functioning BPDer can have great empathy at times, especially for total strangers and others posing no threat. She will not be able to maintain it consistently, however, and cannot be empathetic while splitting loved ones as "black." This is why it is common to see some high functioning BPDers in caregiving professions where they are nursing or doctoring folks with much care all day long -- and then they will go home that night and abuse the very people who love them." : So true. So so true. 

"When it is going good (it lasts for about 1 week normally) its fantastic and she is a really lovely person.": true. Hard to leave her because of this.

"As the years go by, a BPDer becomes increasingly resentful of your failure to make her happy -- an impossible task. This is why BPDers typically leave their spouses after 12 to 15 years (15 years in my case). Yet, until they reach that point, they usually keep coming back after they leave because they loath being alone. Being unstable, they have a strong desire to be around someone with a strong, stable personality who will ground them -- serving as an emotional anchor. This tendency of BPDers to keep pulling you back after pushing you away is why the #2 best selling BPD book is called I Hate You, Don't Leave Me.": Very insightful

"One of the most common defense mechanism they use is projection, where she will attribute her shortcomings and mistakes to you. " : True

Let me add one:
When we were at a playground or water park, my wife did not enjoy the activity. She is only keen to take pictures, which can be showed.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Here is my post in another thread:

"If you love a NPD, you will feel pain and confused to understand her.

If you treat NPD as object, which is the way she is treating you, you will have fun and confident, and you are in the right place to better understand her. 

MY wife has NPD and is obsessive-compulsive about cleanness. I used to spoil her and feed her superiority by obey her rules and pay excessive attention to cleanness. I was labeled disrespectfully by her the dirty one anyway. Now, this is how I teach her a lesson to lower her sense of superiority and control: I deliberately break the rule and walk to upstairs with my shoes on, which will trigger her rage. She will open the window, shouting and crying so loudly that a neighbor called 911 once. I will be very frightened but I can hold on. Calmly escape for 3 hours and go back without shoes. Then I will be conciliatory, and touch her gently. She will be raging and screaming to dearth again for the touch (how dare can you touch me after annoying me!) and finally break down( As long as I can be cool and win the game of chicken). After this episode, the next day, she will calm down like nothing happened (typical for NPD). I will discuss her on what did she feel and hopefully let she be aware what a ridiculous reaction she had. I hope I can teach her to low down her sense of superiority and control and help her to be normal person, at least in the raging part."


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> Are you proceeding with the divorce ?


I am in the back and forth to decide divorce, mostly the timing of divorce. 

I hope I can help her to get better, to reduce her NPD or BPD traits, before divorce. After divorce, I may lost the influence.

We have a son in fourth grade. I am guilty to leave him alone to face his mom after divorce.

We still have a vague hope to prove I am wrong: that she has only the traits that can be fixed to better...

I am reading lots of books on NPD and BPD. I need to improve myself as I am attracted to them...


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

loveisforever said:


> "verbal abuse" : No.
> "temper tantrums, inappropriate anger, lack of impulse control": Obvious.


LIF, how is it possible for her to be "raging and screaming" at you -- as occurred with the shoe incident -- without being verbally abusive?


> "constant blaming, always being the victim": Not obvious.


Really? When she blew up over your wearing shoes, did you not spot a put-upon woman, i.e., a victim, in the room? And did you not see another victim when, as soon as you touched her shoulder, she reacted like you had thrown scalding water on her? And did you not know who "The Perpetrator" was in the room? 

If your W has strong BPD traits, she has a powerful need to continually validate her false self image (of being "The Victim") by often finding fault with you. This might explain, then, why you agreed with the statement, "99 good things in the week are overshadowed by the 1 mistake I have made." 

The only other role that a BPDer will let the spouse play is that of "Savior." Like "Perpetrator," the role of "Savior" validates her status as "The Victim" -- otherwise, you wouldn't be trying to save her. Sadly, the savior role occurs for months during the infatuation period but rapidly diminishes over time.


> "Pushes other people away, she can't keep friends for more than 12 months": NO, she is active socially. ...She is proud of herself having so many friends.


That was Maybe's observation about his own W. Typically, however, BPDers can keep casual friends for years and years. Like total strangers and business associates, casual friends pose little or no threat to the BPDer's two great fears. There is no close relationship to be abandoned and no intimacy to cause engulfment. 

Heaven help those folks, however, if they make the mistake of trying to draw closer and establish a close LTR. This is why BPDers typically have no close long-term friendships unless they live a long distance away. My BPDer exW, for example, was very outgoing and had lots of casual friends. All of her close friends, however, were pushed away within a few years. One close friend lasted about 15 years but only because the two of them lived a 1,000 miles apart and rarely got together. But, even in that situation, my exW eventually sabotaged the friendship -- so hurting the other woman that a reconciliation will never occur.


> "When it is going good (it lasts for about 1 week normally) its fantastic and she is a really lovely person.": true. Hard to leave her because of this.


Yes, it can be very VERY hard to leave a BPDer. Such a relationship is highly addictive because, wheh a BPDer is splitting you white, she is very VERY good. BPDers have a warmth and purity of expression that is so intense it is otherwise seen only in children. This can be seen in the films of Marilyn Monroe, an actress that is widely believed to have had BPD and likely was the world's most beloved actress of all time.


> I hope I can help her to get better, to reduce her NPD or BPD traits.


It may not be a choice between one or the other. She may exhibit strong traits of both BPD and NPD. A recent study (pub. 2008) found that a third of the women having full blown BPD also have full blown NPD. It also found that about 75% of BPDers suffer from at least one other PD. See Tables 2 and 3 at Prevalence, Correlates, Disability, and Comorbidity of DSM-IV Borderline Personality Disorder: Results from the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions.


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## BookOfJob (Jul 6, 2012)

LIF, sorry to hear your story. What ethnicity is your wife?

There is another thread in the next sub-forum that sounds similar to this.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Mixed ethnicity.


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## dblkman (Jul 14, 2010)

dude you need to read more on NPD, I read on it as my wife's ex has NPD and it stated you should stay the heck away from these ppl as much as possible.....D her dude


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

loveisforever said:


> Mixed ethnicity.


So how's it going these days?


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

dblkman said:


> dude you need to read more on NPD, I read on it as my wife's ex has NPD and it stated you should stay the heck away from these ppl as much as possible.....D her dude


I second that!
But why limit yourself on just one injustice friend. Don't limit yourself to just NPD, get a basic understanding for all of them so you can be certain.

NPD is like a vampire, they seduce and feed off of others yet can't see themselves as anything less than perfect. She will only keep friends and lovers who kiss her ass and keep letting her feed. Same goes for BPD but not as extreme.

BPD is like a zombie freshly bitten that lures you in by acting helpless and then praises the hell out of you for saving her. Yet the same woman will take a bite out of your flesh and then blame you for exposing your brains, I mean head.

HPD is like a poltergeist that only seems to act up when no one is paying attention to her, then she wails and over acts to anyone who will listen. You'll often recognize this in the self proclaimed princesses and daddy's girls.

SPD is like a werewolf that has no regards for human beings and just sees everyone as a fresh kill to be taken advantage of. A lot of the above personalities have this trait at times but only a true SPD will hurt you for fun and smile at your misery.

...... at least this is how I see these personality disorders.:rofl:


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Nsweet said:


> Don't limit yourself to just NPD, get a basic understanding for all of them so you can be certain.


Nsweet, comparing a substantial portion of the world's population to vampires, zombies, poltergeists, and werewoves does not promote "a basic understanding." Rather, it promotes ignorance and intolerance. I recognize it is important for these folks to be held fully accountable for their actions, allowing them to suffer the logical consequences of their misdeeds. 

Yet, portraying them as _all black_ -- as you've done here (apparently in jest) -- can be just as damaging as the black-white view that our BPDer ex-wives have of us. The reality is that BPDers generally exhibit both good and bad behavior and, when they are good, they can be very VERY good. Indeed, two of the most beloved women in the world were Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both of whom are widely believed to have had full blown BPD. As a group, BPDers are NOT _bad people_. Nor are they like _zombies_. Rather, they are _emotionally unstable people_.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Here is my update:

I called off the divorce one month ago and wanted to give another try.

I read lots of books about relationships, especially "the married man sex primer 2011". I thought: Maybe my wife just have a NPD/BPD trait and not too bad, so I can try to force a change. Maybe it was my timid behavior and weak mindset that contribute her problems.

So here I went: man-up.

I was consciously assertive. For example, my wife occupied almost all the drawers in our furniture. It is too self-centered. So I told her to give half to me. She refused. After several useless warnings, I empty some drawers to the floor in the morning. She went nuclear. Open windows and deliberately shouting through the roof. Police came as someone must called 911. In the afternoon after work, I empty more. She shouted it again. I went outside to calm. 

At the end, I got what I want. 

I did several things like this. She seems a little afraid of me. Very stressful. 

I though I finally got it. I though I could make marriage work this way.

But last week, she showed me the limit. My sister planed to came over from overseas to visit me. She refused my sister to come to our house. This is nonsense and a repeat of her pattern to isolate me from my extended family. She is vicious and stubborn. She pushed my hot buttons. She said she resent me deeply for my rude man-up. She called the book I read and this web site a "porn" that taught me bad things. She knew I am learning through books and TAM website. 

So we are in square one. The man-up failed. She threatened me to call police and put me in jail if I dare to try these tricks.

I am going back to divorce mood.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Nsweet, comparing a substantial portion of the world's population to vampires, zombies, poltergeists, and werewoves does not promote "a basic understanding." Rather, it promotes ignorance and intolerance. I recognize it is important for these folks to be held fully accountable for their actions, allowing them to suffer the logical consequences of their misdeeds.
> 
> Yet, portraying them as _all black_ -- as you've done here (apparently in jest) -- can be just as damaging as the black-white view that our BPDer ex-wives have of us. The reality is that BPDers generally exhibit both good and bad behavior and, when they are good, they can be very VERY good. Indeed, two of the most beloved women in the world were Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both of whom are widely believed to have had full blown BPD. As a group, BPDers are NOT _bad people_. Nor are they like _zombies_. Rather, they are _emotionally unstable people_.


"The reality is that BPDers generally exhibit both good and bad behavior and, when they are good, they can be very VERY good."

Exactly what I observed my wife. It is why it was so hard for me to push a divorce myself alone: I feel guilty to abandon her. She ALWAYS claims that she loves me and yet her behavior pointed to the opposite direction. 

She seems very dedicated to our child. She is going above and beyond to take care of him. My son has been showing very strong affection and attachment to her. But I did see her dark side: She became furious when he refused to obey her order. She stay so close to him that everyone would feel suffocated. My son cried a lot like: you always make me do this, and make me do that. I am always not enough. 

I can not think how my son can manage her excessive attention after our divorce.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> I second that!
> But why limit yourself on just one injustice friend. Don't limit yourself to just NPD, get a basic understanding for all of them so you can be certain.
> 
> NPD is like a vampire, they seduce and feed off of others yet can't see themselves as anything less than perfect. She will only keep friends and lovers who kiss her ass and keep letting her feed. Same goes for BPD but not as extreme.
> ...


"NPD is like a vampire, they seduce and feed off of others yet can't see themselves as anything less than perfect. She will only keep friends and lovers who kiss her ass and keep letting her feed. Same goes for BPD but not as extreme."

My wife do like this...But a little bit harsh though.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Uptown said:


> LIF, perhaps your STBX does have strong NPD traits. Keep in mind, however, that most folks having strong traits of one PD also have strong traits of one or two other PDs as well. PDs are not separate diseases but, rather, simply patterns of dysfunctional behavior. Indeed, there is no known disease that causes any of them.
> 
> I mention this because many of the behaviors you describe -- e.g., the flipping in ten seconds from loving you to hating you, the fragile sense of self, the temper tantrums, her always being "The Victim," and the black-white thinking -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which Nsweet just mentioned. Like Nsweet, I was married to a BPDer (for 15 years in my case).
> 
> If you would like to see what it is like to live with a BPDer, check out my post in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to excellent online resources. Incidentally, you are very fortunate to have attracted the attention of EleGirl, who has given you some amazingly insightful advice. Take care, LIF.


Thank you uptown for your insight. They are really helpful.

I had to admit: My wife had both NPD and BPD, with the NPD the more obvious. 

I am confused about the distinction between "trait" and "syndrome". As "trait" can be changed and "syndrome'" doomed.

I do hope my wife only has "trait"...

I am trying very hard to understand her. Here is my observation:

My wife has a too-much and blind confidence and simple only believe herself. She reacts not by reasoning, but by emotion. She can instinctively know what is good or bad to her and she react accordingly without second thought. No points to argue with her. She just lies her way to get her goal, whatever. Otherwise, she will show negative emotion and give you pain. 

She is very effective to make friends right away and looks very sincere and loving. She hides her displeasure and disdain very well. She is actually constantly looking for the shortcoming of her friends and secretively sees her above others. Otherwise, she is secretly jealous and unhappy. She likes to think everybody is jealous of her. 

She never changes. Sometimes she pretend to change, sometimes just minimize it, sometimes refuse to talk about it. Anyway, it is amazing for me to observe how unyielding she always is.

Actually, she fits in the description of high alpha guy very well. Pure High Alpha without beta. She belittled me as a women-like and weak. To man-up, I really should look to her as role model. 

I realize that she has no been in love with me even once. She is incapable of loving others. She faked virgin to me and convinced me I should take care of her lifetime as she would not marry again. She brain washed me to distance me from all my extended family members. She is a lie professional and extremely good at making everyone believe that she is innocent, sincere, and lovable. 

My god, I can not believe how good she is to convince everyone how innocent and genuine she is. I was sold for 15 years and make to believe that she is only act out of childish and innocence. In fact, she is much more complicated than me. She has been manipulating me easily and with damn confidence.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Is it weird that my wife knows this website, read my post, and hates it? She belittles TAM as a "porn" site and tried to stop me from posting? She seems really hurt about my comments about her, but she refused my offer to discuss it?

If my wife is reading this: I dare you and invite you to share your point of view here, you damn liar and emotional-unstable NPD/BPD!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

LIF, thanks for giving us an update. I suggest that, when deciding whether to D her, you do whatever you believe is in the best interest of your boy. One important consideration is that, as long as you are living with an angry and emotionally unstable woman, you are at risk of being arrested on a bogus charge of domestic violence. Such charges are extremely common among NPDers and BPDers as a way to keep their spouses from getting shared custody of the children. Hence, by staying there to protect your boy, you could end up having very little contact with him if she wants to play hard ball. As you already know, NPDers and BPDers get very vindictive when splitting you black.

In my case, my BPDer exW had me arrested for "brutalizing her" and thrown into jail, giving her time to file a restraining order against me. When a husband has been arrested, ROs are handed out like candy -- free for the asking. Although there were no young children involved, she did it so as to be able to live rent-free in my home for 18 months (the time it takes to get a divorce in this State). In that way, I was kicked out of a home I had lived in for 16 years before she ever came to live with me.


> I am confused about the distinction between "trait" and "syndrome". As "trait" can be changed and "syndrome'" doomed. I do hope my wife only has "trait"...


A "trait," "syndrome," and "symptom" all mean essentially the same thing. They are simply behavioral characteristics. A "trait" or "symptom" is an individual behavioral characteristic such as temper tantrums or jealousy. A "syndrome" is simply a group of such symptoms that are often observed to occur together. Hence, NPD and BPD are only syndromes, not diseases -- because they constitute a group of behavioral symptoms (i.e., behavioral traits).

Because NPD and BPD are not diseases, there is no disease that can be cured. They therefore cannot be cured. Instead, these dysfunctional patterns of behavior are thought distortions that are very difficult to treat. Indeed, it is generally believed that NPD is untreatable. Hence, if your W has strong traits of NPD, there is little or no chance you will see an improvement. In contrast, excellent BPD treatments are available but it is rare for BPDers to have the self awareness and ego strength needed to stay in therapy long enough (several years at least) to make a difference. This, at least, is my understanding based on my experiences, LIF.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Yes. My wife has threatened me to threw me in jial, and got a restriction order against me. The reason she has not done so because she still need me finiancially. 

I am afraid as years goes by, as she gain more financial support from me, she will feel at one point she does not need me any more. Things will get really ugly from there.

She said," I have already saved you many times (by not reporting to police).I will not save you next time."

I know she will divorce me just as a matter of time, even if I stay. And I will run a real risk to be put in jail and has my career ruined any time. 

I should concentrate on my boy after the divorce. I am thinking of it these days.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

I am keep thinking what makes my wife so unique from girls I knew. My current thought is that she is too self-centered and self-absorb to the point that she lies her way into believing the lie herself, vindicate herself in a closed circle of thinking. There are little facts to be respected, little responsibility to be taken, little consequence to be considered. She just focus on herself. She is her own god. Her need to be admired is insatiable. That is why there are little hope for her to change. She is too sick to take any medication to cure.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

loveisforever said:


> She lies her way into believing the lie herself


If she is a BPDer, most of her outrageous statements likely are projections, not lies. As a BPDer, her emotional development is stuck at about the level of a four year old. This means her ego defenses are limited to those primitive defenses available to young children. These include lying, projection, magical thinking, temper tantrums, and black-white thinking. To avoid feeling shameful, a BPDer typically will lie if she is cornered. 

Yet, because lying triggers her painful feelings of intense shame, a BPDer usually relies far more heavily on projection instead. The reason projection works so beautifully well as an ego defense is that it occurs entirely at the _subconscious_ level -- thus allowing the _conscious_ mind to be firmly convinced that the projection is true. This means, then, that projection is entirely guilt-free, making it far superior to lies as an ego defense. 

The result is that you will often see a BPDer making outrageous allegations while, at the same time, being convinced this nonsense is true. And she will stay convinced until her feelings change a few days later, at which time she likely will be convinced of something entirely different. Like I said, projection is a wonderful ego defense. As such, it protects the BPDer from seeing too much of reality.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Thank you, uptown. Very insightful.

My wife always claim she is honest and decent. For me, the truth just can not get through her. She is wrapping around herself in her inner world. But at the same time, she does watch others carefully. Most her learning comes from her observation and conversation, very shallow. 

She is stubborn, but at the same time, many times she seems have not an idea of her own. 

Now, I am becoming assertive. This causes lots of stress in her as she can not push me around any longer. She now sees divorce as a way for relief. But she seems has a short memory span. One day she curses to be ran down by a truck. She will behave like nothing happened after 2-3 days. 

There is never a time in our marriage when we can sit down and have a deep talk. It just like dealing with a child. For her, it is most about emotions and feelings, and they change from time to time.

But she is pretty consistent in asking admiration and praise from me and our kid. She is pretty consistent in bad-mouthing my sisters and parents. She is pretty consistent in using sex as a weapon. If I make her for a small change, like to go to bed not too late (in 11:00PM instead of mid night), she will always comes back against this. 

Either projection or lie, I just can not believe her words any more.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Just my thinking about marriage with a NPD/BPD:

We got engaged very quick, in about 1 month. This was honeymoon period. She got a boost in her self image at that time. Even at that time, she showed care to me only when I was sick. She did not really care about my feelings. She actually deliberately isolate me from my family. When I told her I might have a serious heart disease. She cold-heartily withdraw completely and research extensively on how this would affect her. Never a comforting words to me. 

She has been actually attached to her family deeply even after our marriage. Her mom, dad and brothers all spoil her, treating her like a queen without any critical feedback. This outrageous spoil is impossible to get from outside world, even from me. Therefore, she always place me at an intimate level much less than her family. This is also a mechanism to not be vulnerable to me, avoiding the hurting truth from my mouth. 

She has an unlimited appetite to seek approval, praise and admiration from others. Over the years of marriage, she is disappointed in some feedback from me. Her heart slowly withdrew from me, and now concentrated on our kid. She think herself a great mom with self-sacrifice. 

Relationship with her feels like with a rock. No real intimacy, no real communication, no real meaning. She just does not has the ability and capacity to be a real meaningful wife. 

What she asks for me is not intimacy and deep connection. She want me to be submissive for her control, always sees her as Ms. Right and Wonderful, at least, provide her with money and security. If I fulfill the above requirements, she will be contend with her marriage. Her real satisfaction will come from her communication with her family and let them be proud of her, from her chatting with her friends and let they be jealous of her, from her interaction with our son and owe his success to all her sacrifice. 

When we travel to a beautiful spot, when we play at a crowded water park, when we join in a joyful party, my kid and I will enjoy and engage. But for my wife. she appears cool and remote, just not in the spirit. It was in these most joyful moments that I was surprised to see her lacking of something, which made me feel sad. She is always interested in taking pictures of herself, just to prove to herself or album-lookers that she has been there among something wonderful.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

loveisforever said:


> Now, I am becoming assertive. This causes lots of stress in her as she can not push me around any longer. She now sees divorce as a way for relief.


LIF, your marriage seems to be tracking mine pretty closely. Like you, I started establishing stronger personal boundaries in the last few years -- and enforcing them. My exW therefore started fearing abandonment so much that she decided to preemptively abandon me first. As you say, she saw "divorce as a way for relief." 

I've read that, for caregivers like us, a marriage with a BPDer/NPDer typically lasts about 15 years. The caregivers like us usually never let go. Instead, the BPDers leave us because, as the years go by, they become increasingly resentful of our inability to make them happy or fix them. Like your 14-year marriage, mine lasted 15 years.


> But she seems has a short memory span. One day she curses to be ran down by a truck. She will behave like nothing happened after 2-3 days.


If she has strong BPD or NPD traits, it is very unlikely that "forgetful" behavior is due to a "short memory span." If you doubt that, simply recall how -- at every heated fight you have with her -- she is able to quickly recall and describe -- in great detail -- every single (real or imagined) bad thing you ever did or said in the past 14 years. With BPDers, it is common for that lengthy, detailed list to be seared into memory and for the list to be pulled out at every fight.

What appears to be a "short memory span" is called "rewriting history" -- a behavior that BPDers are notorious for. It's not that they cannot recall events but, rather, that their feelings and fears are so intense that they are convinced they MUST be an accurate reflection of reality. BPDers never learned the skill of intellectually challenging their intense feelings (instead of accepting them as reality). 

The result is that, although their memories are intact, they decide that they completely misinterpreted things earlier. They therefore completely replace their old perception of events with a totally new perception. If this seems strange, keep in mind that all of us do the very same thing when we get intensely angry with someone. 

That is, like the BPDers, we all occasionally rewrite history in that manner. What we previously thought was an act of generosity, we now perceive (colored by our anger) as being a shrewd effort to control or manipulate us. This distortion of our perception has occurred so many hundreds of times that, by the time we are in high school, we already know we cannot trust our own judgment when we have intense feelings (e.g., anger or infatuation). That's why we try to keep our mouths shut until we have time to cool down -- and why we try to wait at least a year before buying the ring.

Although BPDers generally do not have a _"short memory"_ problem, they often do have a _short attention span_ due to their habit of escaping reality by daydreaming (a mild form of dissociation). It therefore is common for BPDers to seem to "not remember" things you said or did. Again, it is not that they cannot remember but, rather, that they simply do not pay attention to what you are saying. This is why, in therapy programs targeted to BPDers, one of the first skills taught is how to "stay in the moment" instead of escaping into daydreams.


> There is never a time in our marriage when we can sit down and have a deep talk.


If your W has strong BPD traits, she likely has been carrying enormous anger and shame deep inside since early childhood. Hence, you don't have to spend any time at all in CREATING the anger. Rather, you only have to say or do some trivial thing that TRIGGERS the anger that is already there. 

This is why, no matter how calm a mood you find her in, she is always just ten seconds away from a temper tantrum. The result is that -- except for those very rare "moments of clarity" which may happen once a year if you are lucky -- there will never be a time when you can sit down and have a calm, rational conversation with her on any sensitive subject. And catching her in a calm, relaxed mood doesn't help at all.


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## Dreald (Aug 30, 2012)

I married a woman who sounds almost IDENTICAL to the wife you married. Bought her a 2.25ct center diamond ring (total of over 3.5 cts) and she stated she wanted to upgrade the ring at our 5 year anniversary to at least a 3ct. 

Didn't help me hardly at all in selling the house I had prior to our marriage and yet demanded that we take the closing check and deposit it into our *joint* checking acct. immediately afterwards.

Did the majority of the housework, all the planning, all the cooking and still bi*ched about what I didn't do that was part of her responsibilities. 

Hit me during our honeymoon when she was drunk and later when I confronted her about it, she said "Oh, wahh...you're a man...you can take it".

She's only had one relationship last longer than a year (which she lied to me about) and that was a long-distance relationship that lasted 18 months. Her Dad keeps telling her that she doesn't have to be married to be happy.....

So many other tales to tell, but needless to say the final straw was when she called the cops in order to control me further. I left the next day and emptied out my pre-marital assets. She cost me about $50k for only 14 months marriage. 

I consider it the best $50k I've spent in moving on with my life without her. Given how your wife is acting towards you, I'd say you have to evaluate the cost of getting out of this one-sided marriage or paying to get out with the opportunity to meet someone who is more suitable as a potential wife.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

I know there is something wrong with myself. I just always dream to have my wife back as a normal or sub-normal person. I keep thinking there may be 1% chance that my wife can be "saved" by changing my behavior and with her aging. I actually feel guilty of "abandon" her too. She said in tears that she had no job (although she can look for but has not to), and her living standard will suffer after the divorce. Her father accused me of abandoning her after "using" her for so many years. All our friends sees nothing wrong with her and firmly against divorce. I used to have a very weak personality and was persuaded to give her chances one after another. It took lots of rounds of frustration for me to finally stand up against such group mentality.

Yesterday I wanted to give it another try and wished my wife would be at least show some signs of adjusting to our new relationship after I man-up. She has been unhappy recently and I worry about the possibility of her depression. I wanted to be close with her and see what is in her mind. She was a genius in figuring out my next move when I went home last night. Before I had a chance to suggest to her that we move to the same room and have a talk, she told me she had a severe headache, heart problem and migraine from our fighting 1 week ago and did not even have the strength to talk. She was still mad at me for her lost control apparently. I saw her lying or at least greatly exaggerating her discomfort. I kept pushing her for the symptoms and said I need to take care of her in my room in case of emergency as she claimed. I told her the previous fighting was due to her unreasonable insisting to isolate my sister and her dad was not good to spoil her, not as a saint as she claimed. She became furious as I dare to say something negative to her family. She jumped out of bed, raised voice as loud as thunder, and cured my family hysterically. She desperately prayed to God to punish me. It was at mid-night and of course my son was waked up by her voice. My son tried to calm us down. Not to encouraging such a had behavior, I tried 4 times to get her to move to my room to talk. Every time I was defeated by her voice and my son. She once threatened to call 911 and said I was abusing her. She looked like being tortured to death by my words just to challenge her lies and authority. She absurdly claim me a monster and only wanting 'sex' in front of my son and totally blamed me in waking our son up. I was stunned by her reaction and told my self this is not the wife in my memory. For her, there are no love for me and I am easily be painted as evil in her mind and she really believes it. 

I am just ashamed of myself keeping come back to her for a faint hope of reconciliation. I should get a slap in the face for my weakness.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

"at every heated fight you have with her -- she is able to quickly recall and describe -- in great detail -- every single (real or imagined) bad thing you ever did or said in the past 14 years. With BPDers, it is common for that lengthy, detailed list to be seared into memory and for the list to be pulled out at every fight."

Exactly. I was surprised by her extraordinary detailed memory of my "bad things". I was equally amazing at her entirely forgetting how many "good things" I have been providing to her and she can be grateful of. There is no place in her mind for a word "grateful" to others. She said I should always be grateful to her because she was a special person and could bring "good luck" to her husband. She said who knows how had I would be without her blessing.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Dreald said:


> I married a woman who sounds almost IDENTICAL to the wife you married. Bought her a 2.25ct center diamond ring (total of over 3.5 cts) and she stated she wanted to upgrade the ring at our 5 year anniversary to at least a 3ct.
> 
> Didn't help me hardly at all in selling the house I had prior to our marriage and yet demanded that we take the closing check and deposit it into our *joint* checking acct. immediately afterwards.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your story.

I am divorcing my wife. As we had a kid, and i do have an emotional attachment to her, I do not mind lost money to her. I hope she can have a happy life of her own. That will let me feel relief. If she is in depression, I will feel some kind of guilty. 

But now, money seems like the only language that can talk to her. It is the only leverage I have that can make her do something. 

After divorce, if I leave her lots of money and alimony, I will not have any influence in shaping her behavior regarding to my kid. For sure, I need to talk to her about our kid's education after divorce. I know she likes to disagree with me and love to say 'NO". 

Leaving too little money, she will see a big drop in living standard. I am afraid she will be crazy and do some crazy things.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Uptown said:


> LIF, your marriage seems to be tracking mine pretty closely. Like you, I started establishing stronger personal boundaries in the last few years -- and enforcing them. My exW therefore started fearing abandonment so much that she decided to preemptively abandon me first. As you say, she saw "divorce as a way for relief."
> 
> I've read that, for caregivers like us, a marriage with a BPDer/NPDer typically lasts about 15 years. The caregivers like us usually never let go. Instead, the BPDers leave us because, as the years go by, they become increasingly resentful of our inability to make them happy or fix them. Like your 14-year marriage, mine lasted 15 years.If she has strong BPD or NPD traits, it is very unlikely that "forgetful" behavior is due to a "short memory span." If you doubt that, simply recall how -- at every heated fight you have with her -- she is able to quickly recall and describe -- in great detail -- every single (real or imagined) bad thing you ever did or said in the past 14 years. With BPDers, it is common for that lengthy, detailed list to be seared into memory and for the list to be pulled out at every fight.
> 
> ...


"If your W has strong BPD traits, she likely has been carrying enormous anger and shame deep inside since early childhood. Hence, you don't have to spend any time at all in CREATING the anger. Rather, you only have to say or do some trivial thing that TRIGGERS the anger that is already there. "

It makes sense for my wife. So far, the triggers for her anger is as follows:

1: Any negative words against her family, especially her dad. They are all perfect. If I mention any shortcomings, she is in rage. In her childhood, her dad was wrongfully convicted and her family had suffered a lots. She believe her family is superior and unique comparing to filthy and dangerous outside world. She has a twin brother, who she is deeply attached to. She is the only girl in her family and the most spoiled and bossy one. 

2. Any positive words and closeness about my family. I wonder why she hates my family so much as they never live together. I am giving money to support my mom as she is disabled. She said it felt like my family was stealing money from her although I work and earn it. She said her family was rich in her childhood and the fortune was taken away by government and bad guys. 

3. She is obsessed with cleanness and can not control herself if anyone violate her rules of cleanness. She has an order of cleanness: Our son and her are cleanest, I am the less one. My working suite was supposed to be dirty. If I dare to bring them inside our home out of the designated dirty zone, she will be furious.

4. Disobey her and dismiss her authority will sink her into a depressed mood. Double this, you get a trigger. In one weekend, my son did not get up on time after she urged, that set up a bad mood for her. Later that day, she found faults in the way he grab the pen. As he refused to change the way she wanted, she was so mad that she threw the pen at my son and hit him in the ear. 

Her rage was expressed by these ways:
1: Shouting. As loud as thunder. 
2. Crying loudly with nasty words. 
3. Hitting, spitting in your face.
4. Terrible facial impressions and body language that shows her so sick and angry that she was near death and need ambulance to emergency room. 
5. Fetch a weapon such as knife and scissors
6. Threatened to call 911 and label you a abuser
7. Pretend to hurt herself
8. Go through many medical exams


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Consider this: After 14 years of marriage, there are still nothing left in the heart and soul of us. It is like to marry to a pig. What is linking us is money, like what links between a person and a pig is food. This is very hard for me to understand and accept.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

loveisforever said:


> She said I should always be grateful to her because she was a special person and could bring "good luck" to her husband. She said who knows how had I would be without her blessing.


LIF, the behavior you're describing -- i.e., that she somehow is bringing you good luck and blessings -- is called "magical thinking." It is one of the several ego defenses -- like projection and denial -- that we all use as young children. If your W has strong BPD traits, she relies heavily on these primitive ego defenses because her emotional development likely is stuck at the level of a four year old.


> She pretends to be hurt like... "it is hurt so much that I am going to die". In the last few months, she has went to hospital emergency room 3 times for nothing. She claims discomfort so many times and her primary doctor had her checks so many times that she recently got fired as a patient.


As BlueLaser told you last month, this behavior sounds like "Munchausen Syndrome." It is strongly associated with strong BPD traits (See, e.g., Munchausen Syndrome: Somatoform and Factitious Disorders: Merck Manual Professional). Because a BPDer is absolutely convinced she is "The Victim," she will frequently seek validation of this false self image. 

One way is to repeatedly seek professional validation for her imagined diseases and aches. Another way is to make you "The Savior" or "The Perpetrator." Either way, she becomes validated as "The Victim" -- i.e., the victim you are rescuing or the victim you are abusing. This is why I earlier cautioned that, if your W has strong BPD traits, you are at risk of being falsely arrested and thrown into jail -- as happened to me and tens of millions of other husbands.


> I am just ashamed of myself keeping come back to her for a faint hope of reconciliation. I should get a slap in the face for my weakness.


LIF, your problem -- like mine -- does not sound like weakness but, rather, _codependency_. Codependents constitute some of the strongest people I've ever seen. It is common, for example, to see them working a full-time job and going home at night to care for two kids and five dogs -- and still find time on the weekend to go out looking for a spouse to take care of too. I therefore offer several suggestions.

*As an initial matter,* I suggest you read _Codependent No More_, which is the best selling title on this issue. Online, you will find a good article on the subject written by therapist Shari Schreiber. It is at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?.

*Second,* I suggest you read _Splitting: Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist._ My concern is that your D process is going to get very nasty very quickly, especially with child custody involved.

*Third,* I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. This issue is such an enormous problem that that website is growing by 20 new members every day. The result is that it offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the "Leaving" board and the "Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD" board.

*Fourth,* while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My favorite is "Surviving a Breakup with Someone with BPD" at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York.

*Fifth,* I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your young son are dealing with -- and how likely it is she may pass it on to your son. As I've explained in other threads, your best chance of getting a candid opinion regarding a possible BPD diagnosis is to NOT have the BPDer along. Therapists are loath to tell high functioning BPDers the name of the disorder.

*Finally*, LIF, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Your son should not be subjected to this kind of behaviour any longer.
That poor boy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

daisygirl 41 said:


> Your son should not be subjected to this kind of behaviour any longer.
> That poor boy!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know my marriage is over. There are many times my wife is close to call police and ruin my life. But she did not pull the trigger. I think it mostly because she does depend on me financially and I have a little bit of leftover value being "narcissistic supply". As years go by, her needs of me financially will not be over-whelming, my wake-up behavior will get more intolerable for her. She will pull the trigger sometime down the road and give me a lecture why I should deserve it long time ago. 

At that time, I would better kill myself regretting that I have been too coward to act on my best judgement for so many years. 

I know I can survive and have a better life with my current wife. What is breaking my heart is how to minimize the damage to my 9-years-old son. I will act strongly for him, but now I am confused about what is the best way to go for him.

First, I need to exam my codependency problem. It is like a mental disorder. No matter how much I swear to distance from my wife, there is not one day goes by without me day dreaming to have a changed or misunderstood wife back. Every time she behaves nicer, I would be touched and hope it will last.

Second, I will take uptown's advice, try to find psychologist for myself. I did look it up online. I have not found one who is good at BPD/NPD in Boston area. I will keep looking and welcome any recommendation. My wife is high functional. I am afraid an ordinary psychologist without good BPD/NPD experience will be fooled by her. My wife is very likable, much more popular than I am. She is good at making people do things for her and believing her. She can make friends in 10 minutes. 

Third, I will focus on my son instead of my wife. There are lots of room for me to improve to be a good daddy. I will look for advice and buy books on this regards.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

*As an initial matter,* I suggest you read _Codependent No More_, which is the best selling title on this issue. Online, you will find a good article on the subject written by therapist Shari Schreiber. It is at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?.

Done!

*Second,* I suggest you read _Splitting: Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist._ My concern is that your D process is going to get very nasty very quickly, especially with child custody involved.

Done!

*Third,* I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. This issue is such an enormous problem that that website is growing by 20 new members every day. The result is that it offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the "Leaving" board and the "Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD" board.

I am doing this. 

*Fourth,* while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My favorite is "Surviving a Breakup with Someone with BPD" at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York.

Done!

*Fifth,* I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your young son are dealing with -- and how likely it is she may pass it on to your son. As I've explained in other threads, your best chance of getting a candid opinion regarding a possible BPD diagnosis is to NOT have the BPDer along. Therapists are loath to tell high functioning BPDers the name of the disorder.

Trying. Welcome a recommendation of a good clinical psychologist with BPD/NPD experience in Boston area. 

*Finally*, LIF, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers.[/QUOTE]

I will never forget. It is life changing experience for me to listen to your guys and read posts. I would like to share my experience and my opinion to anyone here who might find it remotely help.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

loveisforever said:


> There are many times my wife is close to call police and ruin my life. But she did not pull the trigger. I think it mostly because she does depend on me financially and I have a little bit of leftover value being "narcissistic supply."


Perhaps so but you cannot count on that luck to persist. For one thing, an unstable woman is unpredictable because she is so reactive to what she is feeling at the moment that she will act impulsively, doing things that are not in her financial interests. Moreover, unless being arrested for family violence would cause you to be fired, she will not perceive it as a threat to her financial well-being. And having such a charge on record against you will give her enormous leverage during any child custody dispute.


> What is breaking my heart is how to minimize the damage to my 9-years-old son. I will act strongly for him, but now I am confused about what is the best way to go for him.


Yes, that is the key question and you are best positioned to know what is best for your son.


> I need to exam my codependency problem. It is like a mental disorder.


Yes, there are similarities. But codependency is not considered a mental disorder by the psychiatric community. That is why it is not listed as such in the DSM-IV. And there are no plans to include it in the DSM-5 which will be released this May. I suspect it will never be included as long as most religions continue to preach self sacrifice as the only path to heaven and nations continue to rely on the self sacrifice of their youth as essential to national security.


> I have not found one who is good at BPD/NPD in Boston area. I will keep looking and welcome any recommendation.


LIF, because your W is not yet interested in treatment, it is not necessary to see a psychologist who specializes in treating BPD. Any good psychologist should be able to give you good guidance. But, granted, the skill sets among psychologists vary greatly, as is true for the members of any profession. It therefore is best to see someone who is highly recommended, if you can.

Yet, if you really want to see a psych who has seen many many BPDers, I found a list of therapists who claim to treat BPD at
Boston Borderline Personality Therapist - Borderline Personality Therapist Boston, Suffolk County, Massachusetts (MA) - Borderline Personality Counseling Boston. I am skeptical about that list because any therapist who casts his net widely (checking off every box on the specialties list) could easily end up on this list of Boston Therapists Treating Borderline. Hence, if you use it, I suggest you at least limit your consideration only to those having a PhD in psychology.

A much better approach, in my view, is to obtain a trustworthy recommendation. Because you are living in a city having some of the best universities and research hospitals in the country, you could easily take advantage of that by calling the psychology departments and asking for a reference. For example, Harvard's staff "Administrative Office" for its Department of Psychology is shown at Staff (Who Does What) § The Department of Psychology. That web page lists four administrative officers by name and gives their office phone numbers. One approach, then, is to simply call them, explain why you are seeking a reference, and ask them to please direct you to a faculty member who can refer you to a trusted colleague. 

I think you will be amazed to find out how helpful people like to be when someone is sincerely seeking help (especially when you are willing to pay good money for that help). If you get stuck with a dud or two, just go further down the list. There are over a dozen people listed on that page with their phone numbers. Because there is a good chance they will be calling back after you leave a message, you may want to do this at your office or some place outside your home.

Likewise, you can easily Google for the equivalent page at MIT or Boston University. Or you could Google for phone numbers at _McLean Hospital_, the largest psychiatric teaching hospital affiliated with Harvard Medical School. It, together with Massachusetts General Hospital, and Brigham and Women's Hospital, are considered to have the top three psychiatric departments in the Boston area (rankings are shown at Best Hospitals by Specialty in Boston, Massachusetts - US News Best Hospitals). Because you are living in a sea of excellent psychologists in that city, I suggest you do a little research to ensure you are not wasting time and money on the wrong professional.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Thank you, Uptown. I will do just what you suggested. 

I am now more aware of BPD. It occured to me that my father might suffer from BPD too. The symptoms were:

1. Frantic efforts to avoid imagined abandonment. Even when I was a kid, he express fears of us abandon him when we grow up. He stored excessive and cheap clothes, worrying that he would not get them one day. 

2. Impulsivity in potentially self-damaging behavior. He used to drink alcohol excessively to the point that make him sick. It was horrible for me to watch him use a stick to push his palate to throw up, trying to empty excessive alcohol from stomach just after drinking it. Later on, he indulged himself on excessive smoking, which may be a main reason for his lung cancer.

3. Emotion instability and excessive anxiety. Everyone wondered why he kept worrying so much. He would be suddenly in rage if some words get on his nerves. He worried just about anything in future. He had a tendency to guess other's motive as negative and insincere.

4. He was the center of my family and it seems not enough. He wanted the feeling of control all the time. He micro-managed mom and his 3 kids, only the youngest kid was his favorite. There were no room for respect of mom as a mom, and me as a big brother. He was the one who decided everything. He had a bad mood swing when I went to college and seemed out of his reach. He said bad words about girls around me to keep them from me, which is very similar to my wife. (Every time her brother got a new girlfriend, my wife would said bad words and tried to keep her away. She still holds grudge against her current sister-in-law although she is very nice to her. She handpicked a girlfriend from her classmates for her younger brother and they get along fine. This one is willing to take extra steps to accommodate her) . 

5. There are no emotional support from my dad to my mom and us kids. For us kids, we dreamed to fly out of home to start our own. It was like escaping from a collapsing house. 

The tragic fallout was unbearable for any family: It started with one of my sisters. She disobeyed my dad in trying to go to college instead of early employment my dad arranged. She became disabled because of mental disorder after repeatedly misuses. Then my mom was disabled from a terrible immune disease. She committed suicide years before that and quarreled and fought with my dad in her entire marriage. My dad was devastated, desperate and lost almost all his strength trying to take care of two persons in the family. 

When all these happened, I was in college and I was devastated but not surprised. I had to be in the savior role to keep the family from breaking apart. I did a lots to save my family. I rather die than witness them suffering. I think this may play a role in forming my personality of codependency. I just can not love myself without solve these terrible things first. Yes, I put myself last because my family was in emergency, but a long time emergency. 

When I met my current wife, who would be the only female I had ever had deep relationship with up to now, I was struggled to make sense that I was still lovable by any decent girl. We decided to marry each other just after 1 month. 

I held no secret from my wife. Now my father had passed away and I need to support my mom financially. My wife has been deliberately cutting off my contact with my family ever since our marriage. My weak personality and catering to her need played well for her in the past. But I have not lost conscience to abandon my poor family. I started to stand up to her and pop the bubbles of my relationship. That disillusioned me of my marriage and I started to look at my wife through a different angle using your help. Man, my perception of my world is now upside down.

I have been trying in YEARS to understand my dad and my wife. I could not get a clue after so many sleepless nights. It just not make senses at all for their behaviors. And although it caused so much pain to everyone involved, yet it continues unabated. For BPDers, it is always everyone's faults except theirs. Actually, they do not have a stable image of themselves and constant need others to praise them and to make them secure. They are constantly and desperately in need of support and love everyday, how can they give anyone support and love in return? They are constantly and desperately feel lost in control everyday, how can they control themselves, be responsible and make any long-term changes for others? They just can not. They just do not have such ability. You can not blame BPDers. You can not change BPDers. You can not understand BPDer fully. If you use your rational to think them, you are wrong. If you try to predict them, you run a high risk of being terribly wrong. 

I love my dad and my wife. It is just painful to come to terms with my observation. I used to be proud of my skills to wiggle-wiggle the best ways to satisfy them and keep all the frustration and suffering to myself. Yet, my codependency serves no good for the whole situation to turn around, and earn no respect and gratefulness from them. 

I come to realize that it is plain wrong to focus on BPDers, I need to focus on the ones who are suffering from them. I will move my mind gradually from my wife and pay most of my attention to my son.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

loveisforever said:


> Then my mom was disabled from a terrible immune disease. She committed suicide years before that and quarreled and fought with my dad in her entire marriage.


LIF, thanks for sharing your family background with us. It is heartbreaking to read. I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to live it as a child growing up.


> How can they control themselves, be responsible and make any long-term changes for others? They just can not. They just do not have such ability.


Actually, they do have such ability. They can do all those things. The high-functioning BPDers (i.e., the vast majority of them) are able to control themselves, be responsible, and make long-term changes. But, like a four year old throwing a temper tantrum, BPDers will choose NOT to control themselves, NOT to be responsible, and NOT to make long-term changes when they have no incentive to do so. This is why, for their own well being, it is important to allow them to suffer the logical consequences of their own bad choices. 

Otherwise, you are harming them by enabling them to act like a spoiled child and get away with it. As I noted earlier, BPDers have full control over their own actions even when they are in the middle of an "out-of-control" rage. If you doubt that, simply call the police the next time you are witnessing a temper tantrum. As soon as there is one knock on the front door, you will witness a sudden, ten-second transformation into the calmest, most rational woman you've ever seen. Like everyone else, a HF BPDer does what she has a strong incentive to do.


> You can not blame BPDers.


Actually, you can, LIF. Granted, you cannot blame them for having the childhood damage that they typically acquired before the age of five. They should be blamed, however, for their bad behavior. As I said, they must be held fully accountable for their bad choices in behavior and actions. Having strong BPD traits does not give one a free pass for treating others rudely and abusively.


> I will move my mind gradually from my wife and pay most of my attention to my son.


Sounds like a good goal to me. Meanwhile, I hope you and your family have a great Thanksgiving tomorrow!


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Thank you, Uptown, for correcting some of my wrong perceptions. 

My wife, son and I spent the Thanksgiving vacation on the cruise. After we got home last night, my son cried and said he missed the cruise. This should be the last vacation together for us three. I am heartbroken to think of this and leave my son to my wife, knowing her lack of the ability of being a good mom. I do wish I can make my marriage work, but in reality I know I cannot. 

Here I want to vent my dissatisfaction of US legal system's bias in marriage against men and for the women.Some women take advantage of this and really turn into monster. My wife takes her entitlement into this new level: She said she would easily call the police anytime, get me into prison if she wants, take full custody of our kid and change his last name, and at the same time, all my money belongs to her because of the law. She is proud of her ability to make people believe in her and like her. She assumes that she can charm the judge in the court, too. 

It is this potential dangerous and disastrous situation for me and my family that tilts me into divorcing her. otherwise, I would have tried more. It just becomes more and more dangerous like a mine waiting to be exploded. 

In the cruise, my wife ran a temper tantrum and threaten to call the police. She stood in the hallway cursing me loudly in a late night, with my son crying and begging her to stop. Yet next morning, she was nice to me, nicer than before. 

Yesterday afternoon, my wife angrily walked out in a restaurant and cursed me loudly, stunned the waitresses and all around. Yet at night, she acted as a nice housewife, cleaning house. We played poker together and had a nice family time.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

LIF, thanks again for giving us an update on your situation.


loveisforever said:


> My wife, son and I spent the Thanksgiving vacation on the cruise. After we got home last night, my son cried and said he missed the cruise.


I'm glad to hear that the three of you had a generally good time over the Thanksgiving holiday. It's good that you 9-year-old son had such a good time that he is missing it. 

On the other hand, it is sad that he returns to such a toxic situation that -- as recently happened -- he gets up in the middle of the night to try to calm down a mother who is throwing a temper tantrum like a four year old. No nine-year-old should be placed in such a situation (as you well know, given the turmoil you suffered with your own parents).


> Here I want to vent my dissatisfaction of US legal system's bias in marriage against men and for the women.


I agree wholeheartedly. As I said before, my BPDer exW easily persuaded the police to arrest me for "brutalizing her" and, once that happens, the courts will hand out restraining orders like candy.

One way to protect yourself, if you've not already started doing it, is to carry a VAR in your pocket AT ALL TIMES. It is important to be able to show recorded evidence of her outrageous temper tantrums and unstable behavior.


> She said she would easily call the police anytime, get me into prison if she wants, take full custody of our kid and change his last name, and at the same time, all my money belongs to her because of the law.


It is important you have a good lawyer who is very experienced with child custody cases.


> It is this potential dangerous and disastrous situation for me and my family that tilts me into divorcing her.


Yes, like you say, your precarious situation is "like a mine waiting to be exploded." As to your being "tilted" toward divorce by that enormous risk, I would have thought you were already "tilted" -- if not leaning heavily -- when your boy had to get up in the middle of the night to try to calm her down from a rage.


> In the cruise, my wife ran a temper tantrum and threaten to call the police. She stood in the hallway cursing me loudly in a late night, *with my son crying and begging her to stop*.


LIF, that is very painful for me to read. I cannot even imagine how painful it was you to watch it happening to your own son.


> Yet next morning, she was nice to me, nicer than before.


If she has strong BPD (and NPD) traits, as you suspect, that instant flipping from hating you to loving you is to be expected. And she can flip back just as quickly, as apparently occurred yesterday when she _"angrily walked out in a restaurant and cursed me loudly, stunned the waitresses and all around."_ Later that evening, she apparently threw the switch again when "_she acted as a nice housewife, cleaning house. We played poker together and had a nice family time."_


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

It is not easy to live with my wife. I need constantly remind myself the NPD/BPD nature of my wife. Otherwise, I would fall into the old rut again. Yesterday, she was nice to me. Cooked good food, put my clothes into washing machine. In this separation period without sex, she seemed behave better. Sex is a trap for me. If we ever had one sex, she would think she could have more control of me. Sex is a weapon to her, so is her "niceness" and "generosity".


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## t10eml (Nov 30, 2012)

LIS, my BPD wife finally conceded to a divorce. I am just hoping for the strength to see this through without displaying anymore weaknesses or falling for her "charms". There are times when I wonder if I'm making the right decision, but I must stay strong. I know I will be happier after our separation. I also know (pray) that she will also be happier as well. After all, she always complains about being unhappy with me.

What I am trying to say here is that you need a plan to get out of this relationship, and you need to stick by it regardless of her going into a "pull you back" mode. I believe you and your son will be happier for it.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

t10eml said:


> LIS, my BPD wife finally conceded to a divorce. I am just hoping for the strength to see this through without displaying anymore weaknesses or falling for her "charms". There are times when I wonder if I'm making the right decision, but I must stay strong. I know I will be happier after our separation. I also know (pray) that she will also be happier as well. After all, she always complains about being unhappy with me.
> 
> What I am trying to say here is that you need a plan to get out of this relationship, and you need to stick by it regardless of her going into a "pull you back" mode. I believe you and your son will be happier for it.


What you wrote is exactly I am speaking to myself these days. I know we both know I have such a weak point. My wife has been take full advantage of it. She is taking grant of me and is over confident in her "charms". Her another weapon is Weapon of Massive Destruction (WMD). She showed me one of her WMDs by threatening to kick me out of house, tell polish I am threatening her life, and sue me to give more money to her. Her face transformed to another shape when she spoke it. Just days ago, she was so nice and her face shows as an honest, sincere,caring and loving wife. I am stunned to learn how a person can change so dramatically just in front of my eyes in the matter of minutes. Her body language changed as well. This years, I have discovered lots of her new combinations of faces and body languages. Her drama is worth the price I am paying. A learning opportunity once in your life. 

As the separation and divorce underway, I am playing with fire.


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## t10eml (Nov 30, 2012)

LIS, can you do me a favour. Can you go to this page: Signs of Abuse and Abusive Relationships (scroll down a bit) and let me know how many of the 24 signs apply to you (I know one of them is repeated so it's actually 23 but anyway)?


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

In another post, I commented:

"If you love a NPD, you will feel pain and confused to understand her.

If you treat NPD as object, which is the way she is treating you, you will have fun and confident, and you are in the right place to better understand her. 

MY wife has NPD and is obsessive-compulsive about cleanness. I used to spoil her and feed her superiority by obey her rules and pay excessive attention to cleanness. I was labeled disrespectfully by her the dirty one anyway. Now, this is how I teach her a lesson to lower her sense of superiority and control: I deliberately break the rule and walk to upstairs with my shoes on, which will trigger her rage. She will open the window, shouting and crying so loudly that a neighbor called 911 once. I will be very frightened but I can hold on. Calmly escape for 3 hours and go back without shoes. Then I will be conciliatory, and touch her gently. She will be raging and screaming to dearth again for the touch (how dare can you touch me after annoying me!) and finally break down( As long as I can be cool and win the game of chicken). After this episode, the next day, she will calm down like nothing happened (typical for NPD). I will discuss her on what did she feel and hopefully let she be aware what a ridiculous reaction she had. I hope I can teach her to low down her sense of superiority and control and help her to be normal person, at least in the raging part.'

Just an update:

I did try this "Tough up and Stand up" technique in the past months. At one point, I though it was working and my marriage could be saved. But it soon back fired. It did cause lots of stress in my wife. At one point, she kowtowed to me just to fend off my persistent request to talk to her after her being upset. So I thought I had found a way to force her to face up her problem. But... She turned around and proved me wrong. She went to nuclear and was not afraid to scare our son as she used to. It was a game of chicken of us and the real victim was my son. So I was defeated. No more trying. I am now more determined than ever to go through the divorce. 


To my wife, the standing up of me was too painful to tolerate. She rather go to divorce, or die, or sacrifice my son than being "humiliated" by me. 


It reminded of my father. When my father abused my sister to bend her will to work early, I once stood by my sister and said he was so wrong. My father was so furious that he said the whole family was no good to him and deserved to be destroyed. He might say this only under extreme stress. But I was only a kid then. I was frightened by his rage and frightened to push him over the edge. So I retreat and gave up my voice. I regretted it to death today and felt I failed to rise to protect my sister then. This has been haunting me all the time and serves to remind me of my guilt.

I am now concerned that if I fail to do something, my son will develop NPD/BPD traits or codependency. My plan is to divorce my wife next year, quit one of my part-time job, spend more time with my son, and be happy with myself. I was very easy to be drwan to my wife and waste lots of energy and time there. I need them for my son and myself.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Here I am. My result in Signs of Abuse and Abusive Relationships:

1. feel afraid of your partner much of the time?

Yes in the mind, not physically though. I am a man. But I am afraid to cause her upset as she can go nuclear that hard to handle. 

2. 
Does your partner:humiliate or yell at you?

Yes. All the time. Even subconsciously. 

3. avoid certain topics out of fear of angering your partner?

Yes. The topic would be my family. 

4. criticize you and put you down?

Yes. If it is not the criticism, it is not from her. 

5.feel that you can’t do anything right for your partner?

Yes. Absolutely. Who can?

6.treat you so badly that you’re embarrassed for your friends or family to see?

Yes. 

7.believe that you deserve to be hurt or mistreated?

No. She do claim I have a bad gene and is lower in the ranks with her. Hi, but I do not believe it. Nobody would but her. 

8.ignore or put down your opinions or accomplishments?

Always.

9. wonder if you’re the one who is crazy?

Yes. She did cause me to wonder and I fought against it. I think I would be indeed crazy and commit suicide if I can not divorce her. 

10. blame you for their own abusive behavior?

Definitely.

11 feel emotionally numb or helpless? 

Kind of. 

12.see you as property or a sex object, rather than as a person?

Yes,. See me as money-making machine. 

13. Does your partner: have a bad and unpredictable temper?

Yes, you bet. 

14.Does your partner:act excessively jealous and possessive?

Yes. Occasionally. When I met a young girl. 

15.hurt you, or threaten to hurt or kill you?
Threaten to put me in jail, and get my son to hate me. 

16. control where you go or what you do?

Yes. 
17. threaten to take your children away or harm them?

Yes. Only take away as she claims she is a fantastic mother and our son will owe his success to her. 

19. keep you from seeing your friends or family?

Yes. In a sneak way. 
20. threaten to commit suicide if you leave?

Yes. Did threaten to jump off window, cut her wrist, ... Not suicide but destroy us together. 

21. limit your access to money, the phone, or the car?

Yes. 
22 force you to have sex?

Yes or No? As I enjoy sex, so force me to not have sex. 

23. limit your access to money, the phone, or the car?

Yes. 
24. destroy your belongings?

Yes. 
25.constantly check up on you?

You can say it again. 


So I got 23 "Yes". Not bad.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

LIF, thanks for giving us the updates. I'm glad you realize that you cannot fix her nor train her to behave properly. I'm also glad you realize that, if you completely stop walking on eggshells, you are essentially choosing to walk away -- because it is highly unlikely she will tolerate you living in the home if you are man enough to enforce your personal boundaries. This is why it is so important to use the VAR, and start keeping a journal of her outrageous actions, so as to build a record that your attorney can use in a custody hearing -- so you can take your son and leave.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Uptown said:


> LIF, thanks for giving us the updates. I'm glad you realize that you cannot fix her nor train her to behave properly. I'm also glad you realize that, if you completely stop walking on eggshells, you are essentially choosing to walk away -- because it is highly unlikely she will tolerate you living in the home if you are man enough to enforce your personal boundaries. This is why it is so important to use the VAR, and start keeping a journal of her outrageous actions, so as to build a record that your attorney can use in a custody hearing -- so you can take your son and leave.


The hard part of me is to recognize her as a stranger. The familiar and loving image of her in my mind was the production of mine and I need to let it go. This does not happen over night, no matter how hard I try. When she is nice to me, the old image will come to my mind and I need actively press it down. I do not want fall back to her tricky charms, and go back to the old circle of frustration again. I am now talking to myself what she really is, I want to establish a new nerve connection about her in my brain. It needs exercise. I regard this as a progress for me to grow up mentally. I would be proud of myself to be able to get over with her with a clean and positive new start. 

Even an idiot can tell we are going to divorce. I know my wife does not want it. But as stupid as she can be, she is now concentrate on getting money from me, not to use my weak point to lure me back, which give me a needed mind boost. She is taking every chances try to get as much money from me as possible to the point as shameless and blatant. I can not understand her at all. An idiot would do better than her if she wants to save her marriage. Every time I try to rationalize her action and words, I am proved I am dead wrong. Every time I take her words as is, I will later realize that I have been naive. Whenever her lips are moving, lies will come out. Whenever my mind is working to understand her, I am played. My conclusion is: A normal person just has no way to understand her!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Yes, LIF, walking away from a toxic marriage is so difficult that it often is a process, not an event. For excessive caregivers (fixers) like us, our best chance for breaking free occurs when we get very angry and then hold onto that anger, using it as a crutch to walk away. After we've been safely out of the relationship for a year or so, it is time to kick aside that crutch. It no longer is needed and we don't want it to harm us.


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## t10eml (Nov 30, 2012)

loveisforever said:


> So I got 23 "Yes". Not bad.


That's terrible LIF. Answering yes to 23 of those questions should tell you something.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Yes, LIF, walking away from a toxic marriage is so difficult that it often is a process, not an event. For excessive caregivers (fixers) like us, our best chance for breaking free occurs when we get very angry and then hold onto that anger, using it as a crutch to walk away. After we've been safely out of the relationship for a year or so, it is time to kick aside that crutch. It no longer is needed and we don't want it to harm us.


It is so hard to leave my wife, especially in this way: Slow and steady. With your help, I can understand more of her now. This has greatly reduced my pain. I am now focus on what is wrong with me: why I have been staying in this bad relationship for 15 years? I want to face my weakness head on. I feel I become stronger every day and I finally can do what is right for me instead of paying too much attention to how other people think. My mind seems clearer now. 

For my wife, in spite of how hateful she feels to me, I do wish her well. I have come to terms with what ever her future is, it is unrelated to me. She needs face consequences of her own behavior. If she has good luck by winning a lottery or getting a good husband after divorce, I will be happy for her too. 

Update on last night:

We went a friend's house to celebrate his son's birthday. Three families together. My wife started to dump her bad feelings about me to them. I am a monster, she is the victim. She said how good my friend is as a husband. I went off by saying: If you think he is better than me, then go with him as his mistress. I could not believe I said such hurtful words in front of friends. I just lost control as she always said these things and I had enough. 

So I have a long way to go to be a man I want to be.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

loveisforever said:


> It is so hard to leave my wife, especially in this way: Slow and steady.


I know what you mean, LIF. I had the feeling for years that I was standing on a boat dock, watching my exW slowly drowning in the water just five feet away. Although I repeatedly offered to pull her to safety, she always refused to grab my hand. Because she was incapable of trusting me, she was unable to believe that I truly wanted to help her. Leaving a BPDer, then, makes us caregivers feel like we somehow failed to save a loved one. And, with it being spread over many years and seeming to happen in slow motion, it is both sad and painful.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Uptown said:


> I know what you mean, LIF. I had the feeling for years that I was standing on a boat dock, watching my exW slowly drowning in the water just five feet away. Although I repeatedly offered to pull her to safety, she always refused to grab my hand. Because she was incapable of trusting me, she was unable to believe that I truly wanted to help her. Leaving a BPDer, then, makes us caregivers feel like we somehow failed to save a loved one. And, with it being spread over many years and seeming to happen in slow motion, it is both sad and painful.


For my wife, I am not in a position even to earn her trust/interest to change. Firstly, I am the demon, she is the victim. She sees her as perfect, me as the one who damages her marriage. Secondly, she has so much resentment build up in her deepest feelings that she would happily see I would be punished. Thirdly, she is after my money. I have not only never given her enough, but also steal her money by helping my mom ( She believe all my money is hers). How painful she is to watch me spend her money on strangers like my mom!

I come to terms with the fact that she cares not me, but only wanting me to stay in the marriage for money's sake. At the same time, she feel she has made so much sacrifice by staying marriage with me (as I am so terrible) for my son. Now, my son will owe her all his life.


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## Boundry (Dec 18, 2012)

LIF. I did not go through all your posts. However, it is a really painful story of your marriage. You and your wife are grownups...But for me, it seems both you and your wife have strange way of reviewing marriage. "The other part is the bad person and cause of the failed marriage. The other make me behave like a shameful person... Yelling in front of kid..." "The only way to make marriage work is to change the parner to be a person as I want." Did you ever thought no grownup could be changed even if oneself take great intention to do that, not mentioned some one has no intention to change?

You have focused too much on your wife... You always hold infeasible aspirations to change your wife.. I believe you just waste your time and energy... You might take more time and energy on yourself and your kid. I mean, you should cure yourself first. Make yourself strong and wise mentally. Your attitude to everything will impact your son. What kind of person you want your son to be? Try to be that person first. Do not complain what your wife tell your son and how she did to ruin your image to your son. Believe your son, he could distinguish right from wrong. Just do as a wise father does!

Believe me, it is hard to "choose to do the right thing"!


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Boundry said:


> LIF. I did not go through all your posts. However, it is a really painful story of your marriage. You and your wife are grownups...But for me, it seems both you and your wife have strange way of reviewing marriage. "The other part is the bad person and cause of the failed marriage. The other make me behave like a shameful person... Yelling in front of kid..." "The only way to make marriage work is to change the parner to be a person as I want." Did you ever thought no grownup could be changed even if oneself take great intention to do that, not mentioned some one has no intention to change?
> 
> You have focused too much on your wife... You always hold infeasible aspirations to change your wife.. I believe you just waste your time and energy... You might take more time and energy on yourself and your kid. I mean, you should cure yourself first. Make yourself strong and wise mentally. Your attitude to everything will impact your son. What kind of person you want your son to be? Try to be that person first. Do not complain what your wife tell your son and how she did to ruin your image to your son. Believe your son, he could distinguish right from wrong. Just do as a wise father does!
> 
> Believe me, it is hard to "choose to do the right thing"!


Your are so right. I am now realized that I have an issue myself: codependency. I just got it recently and I am working on it. 

I have been spending 15 years trying to make sense of what my wife did to me and I desperately want/hope she could change. In the process, I buried my head in the sands and lost sight of myself. I may secretly fear of abandonment, even the thought of abandon others will give me a strong feeling of guilty. My wife is a queen to take advantage of my feelings. 

Still, I feel an urge to understand her and see through her eyes everyday. I have to actively counter it by thinking of myself too. The marriage should be finished many many years ago. By acting cowardly and prolong a lifeless marriage, we both waste our lives and take the psychological damage. It just looks like my wife's NPD/BPD traits are much more obvious now and her morale really takes a big hit. For me, it is countless regret and a deep shame to see how low I have been succumbed to. 

I know my life is taking a new turn. I will emerge with a healthier mind.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Update on me:

I am making some progress in realizing my codependency issue. In dealing with big life events, I have been making bold decisions that later I was very proud of. It is so eye-popping for myself to realize how weak I have been in dealing with my wife. 

Dealing with relationship, I am a people pleaser and a loser in marriage. While in dealing with my education and career problems, I have always choose the tough roads and I have been successful... 

I just can not believe how low I have been allow myself to slip...no self respect, no long term things, no vision of my marriage, no control of my inner drive, ...

To the point that my son said he had 50% of my genes and they are bad... I allow my wife to brainwash him for so long...

I have been thinking of divorce for 15 years. But I cared about what my wife might think, my parents-in law and brother-in-law might think, what our friends might think.... I hoped they could help me to get my wife to be reasonable and serious... 

I am now exhausted all the resources. I feel better now. But I waste time.

Divorce is a wonderful thing for a sham marriage, like mine.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Quote:
Originally Posted by t10eml 
"So I spent last night religiously trawling through Uptown's posts on this forum. It was downright eerie seeing him list all (and I mean ALL) of my wife's dysfunctional behavioural traits as symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD).

Reading further I came to the realization that I've spent the last 10 years as a verbally, emotionally and at times (only a handful) physically abused husband. I looked through the list of Signs of Abuse and Abusive Relationships (middle of page) and said yes to 18 of the 24 questions posed. It was scary for me to realize what I've been through and that I've rationalized it over the years with thoughts like "Maybe all wives are like that too", "Just hormonal maybe, she'll get better", "It's not that bad, we do have good times together".

So we decided to have a talk and I told her my realization that I've been abused throughout our marriage. Within a matter of seconds, she expertly flips the topic back to her claiming that SHE'S the victim in our relationship, going through a whole list of things she's not happy with (mostly my fault) and filled with "You always ..." and "You never ...". Some things I agreed with and apologized (yes, I'm not perfect), some things completely illogical and unreasonable.

So once I thought she was done with her "Things I'm not happy about" rant, I decided once again to try to communicate to her my sadness at having been through what I believe was abuse from her for the last 10 years. She then immediately calls me selfish for only wanting to talk about myself. Errr, didn't we just spend the last 15-20 minutes going through your list of things you're not happy about. Why can't we focus on what I believe to be a huge issue in our marriage, i.e. the fact that her regular temper tantrums and verbal abuse is not something I want to put up with anymore?

So I decide to press on with my issue of having been abused. It's definitely an arduous process and she continues to try to switch the topic back to HER being the victim. When she does talk about her abuse of me, her reasoning is, "Well, you should know me by now. That's just how I react when I'm upset. You should know I say things I don't mean." I don't get it. Am I supposed to allow myself to be verbally abused for the rest of my marriage because my wife "doesn't mean it"? Is that the best she can do?

As I said prior, while she was going through her "I'm not happy" list, I admitted to being wrong if I felt that I was, in fact, wrong. What struck me was that during our conversation while I was putting across my point of view, she did not once acknowledge any wrongdoing on her part. I don't know if she honestly thinks her behaviour is acceptable.

I got the distinct impression that she's not even going to try to change anymore (not that I even think she's capable of change). Now, if she's not going to change what I believe will be a fundamental flaw in the happiness of our marriage moving forward, why the heck should I even continue being in this marriage. I cannot live the rest of my life like this. This marriage has just been an entirely emotionally draining experience for me. I look back on my marriage and there were happy/peaceful times but they never ever lasted more than a few weeks before another terrifying, vicious outburst. If not at me, then causing an embarrassing scene at someone else in a public place (in fact, this just happened a couple of days ago).

What I can't figure out is if she's so unhappy about me and it seems I can never make her happy, why does she still want to stay married? Is she happy being unhappy? I guess that's not such a crazy suggestion when it comes to people with BPD.

At this stage, my mind is made up about leaving. I just hope I find the strength to see this through. Because of this marriage, I have realized that I have been a person with extreme empathy, completely to my detriment. I seem to care about the happiness of my wife more than my own. Like I'm willing to drive myself completely insane just to continue to try to make her happy (apparently an impossible task with BPDers). As Uptown and other posters have pointed out, the average person would have left years ago, but I stayed.

Uptown, you have been a tremendous resource in this forum for spouses of BPDers. I'd be most appreciative if you could give me your thoughts on my post. Many thanks."


"You should know I say things I don't mean."

That is what my wife said of herself, what my parents-in-law said of their daughter, what my brother-in-law said about his sister:

"She did not mean it. It was just a burst of anger ( which, by the way, caused by you). She is the most beautiful, nice and decent wife in the world. So no matter what she has said and what she has done, that was not mean to hurt you anyway. (It was actually caused by you. You made her lost temper,right?)

"What struck me was that during our conversation while I was putting across my point of view, she did not once acknowledge any wrongdoing on her part."

So true for my wife. Even our friends were surprised to see how my wife always view her as perfect and no-faults.

"What I can't figure out is if she's so unhappy about me and it seems I can never make her happy, why does she still want to stay married? Is she happy being unhappy? "


I just asked the same questions for myself days ago and I was puzzled by it.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

My wife now sees more signs that divorce is coming and has become more emotional these days.

We visited a friend's house yesterday. Wife could not wait to blast me for how had I am. In a moment, she angrily slapped me on the head. Our friends were stunned. They were also surprised by my minimizing it and getting used to it.

Today our son and his friend opened a bottle of coco-cola and spilled it all over the floor. Wife got mad and eventually re-focused her anger toward me as I spoke for the kids. Her angry embarrassed the visiting friend. 

Tonight, wife read Bible in my room loud to me, claiming to help me making senses as I am the evil. I regard it as a sign forward for her: at least, she is realizing that she needs some time to do soul searching, although for me. 

I just need to be vigilant not to fall victim on her gas-lighting. Her so called truth is just distorted too much to be true.


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## caladan (Nov 2, 2012)

Dude, why the f**k are you still doing "we" things with her? Why are you still getting pulled into arguments and stuff? 

I don't get you - it seems to me that you actually get some pleasure from her beating you up and abusing you, seriously.

If you're done, draw a line underneath and create space between both of you. Stop going to dinner with her, stop talking to her. If she screams at you leave the house. You're leaving the house for her anyway, why are you still staying there. 

The only thing you should be doing with her right now is working on custody agreements with your kid, not social visits. C'mon brother, you're better than this.

I have no idea why you would remain with someone who has pretty much disrespected you racially "her genes are better than yours? I'd be out once that was uttered!"

When you say she's mixed-ethnicity, can you elaborate - which ethnicities are mixed (Black/white? Indian/chinese?? what?)


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

I am waiting to file before this May, as I informed my wife and as recommended by my attorney. 

I do not think ethnicity play a role here. I am against any racial profiling. 

Regarding my wife's "gene" theory, I just regard it too ridiculous to deal with seriously. Just show how desperate she is now to hang on such a fake thread. Just show how low her self-esteem sinks now. 

With the help of the NPD/BPD theory, I am gaining more insight into her and our marriage and starting to face my codependent issues. This will not happen over-night. It will take me several months to come around and de-link my previous false nerve connections. I am giving myself several months now to work on it. Being with her and witnessing her behaviors first hand in a brand-new angle help me for now. 

Before my divorce, I want to leave with a smile and new found confidence.


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## jnyu44 (Feb 13, 2012)

Sounds like everyone here has been giving you great advice. Your wife is similar to mine in that she can get terrifyingly angry - that can be very difficult to handle on its own. At least my wife is honest though (for the most part; she does justify a lot though)! 

Remember to tell yourself every day that you are going to get this divorce, that she is manipulative, and that everything she says is a lie. Stay strong even if she keeps telling you she will change. You've already given her enough chances and she doesn't deserve anymore. 

Congratulations on winning your life back.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Thank you for your kind words, jnyu44. I am staying strong and I am determined to leave my wife this year.She is now routinely threatens to call police just to gain an upper hands over me. I will not let her anger to destroy us all.


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## Struggling4ever (Jan 9, 2012)

loveisforever said:


> We are lack of trust toward each other, although I did place blind trust in her before.
> 
> Therapy may solve a communication problem, but it can not change a person's personality.


Without trust you can not have respect...And without trust and respect, sadly there is no real marriage. And your quote about Therapy...I believe that to be so true, that is my battle. I believe I see the good and see what my wife could be, but character and personality can't be taught..they're both part of who you are....


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## Struggling4ever (Jan 9, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Yes, LIF, walking away from a toxic marriage is so difficult that it often is a process, not an event. For excessive caregivers (fixers) like us, our best chance for breaking free occurs when we get very angry and then hold onto that anger, using it as a crutch to walk away. After we've been safely out of the relationship for a year or so, it is time to kick aside that crutch. It no longer is needed and we don't want it to harm us.


I hate admitting this but I can relate! My wife has such a loving and caring side. When my mother was alive my wife was better to her than anyone, always there for her... But she has a mean streak. When she gets angry, there is no rationalizing with her. She goes off the deep end and it's so scary that there have been times where I was afraid to go to sleep at night in my own house. 

In the few fights we've had (only because I try to keep peace) she will get mad and I apologize to her, but the times I get mad at her... No Apology! Instead she always turns it around and gets mad at me and I still end up apologizing back... Usually 1 or 2 days later she may somewhat apologize or even say I was upset because I knew you were right...but more often than not she just acts like everythings fine and I'm supposed to be ok with it? I did this for years but I finally drew the line a year ago or so and it hasn't gone too well. I could go home tonight though...have a serious talk and we would be fine tomorrow (in her mind)...but the next time it starts all over again. 

I'm just tired of the anger and negativity...If someone criticizes her driving (she's an excellent driver but rides peoples bumper) she will look at me and say I'm used to hearing about it..it's no big deal...but you can see in her mannerisms that it is... I'm so ready to leave myself, I just need to pull the plug too!


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Struggling4ever said:


> Without trust you can not have respect...And without trust and respect, sadly there is no real marriage. And your quote about Therapy...I believe that to be so true, that is my battle. I believe I see the good and see what my wife could be, but character and personality can't be taught..they're both part of who you are....


Sadly, if anyone say something nice of me, my wife will show her impression of contempt. If anyone say something my work is well done, my wife will eagerly show them how I owe my success to her. These have become her first reaction without even thinking. 

When she is nice to me, she will go extra miles to be nice, maybe too nice. It feel like she is pleasing a baby. It is hard for me to reject her nice gesture. But now I just regard it as a show.

It is heartbreaking for me to recognize the one-familiar-but-now-distant world I am in once I started to see it through a different lens. The once colorful world with my wife is gone as my old imagination. The things left just looks like ruins. 

It just reminds me how close I am near mental disorder. Somethimes I feel as lonely as crazy.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Just update on the mental progress I am making:

I realized the pychological toll I incured during the 15 years of marriage with her. Before marriage, I used to be a happy and confident man with lots of achievements that I can be proud of. My family is proud of me and lots of friends shows admiration and acceptance. I was feeling very good about myself. After marriage, my wife first pull out a show to force me to humiliately kowtow to her, then isolate me from my family and friends, then lead me to put her and her family on pedestal, brainwashing me to value her as a virgin and someone special, reject me firmly when I come up with an idea, offer her idea with strong feed back of praise and punishment, scare me to call the police, tell me I was miserable and unfortunate in my early life and lucky to have her now, point out my shortcomings all the time, force me to be as fvcking "clean" as her, prepare my bed using dirtier bed-sheets with clean ones reserved for her, always find faults in me as ridiculous as where to put my shoes in my own home, always implies that I am inferior to others in various ways, always say others are bigger and better, always want me to appreciate her and praise her, always outsmart me who doing small things, always stick to her own way instead of mine, say no to me most of the time, make sure I am punished after I caused her unhappy, always value her friends's opinions above mine, tried to hang on the wall lots of her pictures and her daddy's pictures without mine and my family's(defeated by me and turn into resentment), tried to throw away all the gifts from my side and cherish all the gifts from her side (revenged by me and turn into resentment), bad mouth my family members and idol her family members (revenged by me and turn into resentment). 

All these do change me in a direction of people-pleasing and codependency.


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## thisSux (Jan 8, 2013)

My wife and I are going through some similar stuff and if i look back i could easily say that i have been verbally, emotionally and mentally abused, recently after a really unpleasant episode we went to see our MC who not only suggested that my wife spends time working out what are the underlying issues that lead to this kind of dis-function in her life but also I need to understand what in my life has led me to want to be involved with this kind of woman.

I've realised over the last few months that despite some of my wifes behaviour being pretty bloody bad that I have enabled her to do behave that way, and the change has come since i've stopped enabling her, No i'm not going to sit down and have a drink with you tonight, Sorry i'm not going to fight with you or listen to you try to hurt me, that sort of thing has been really powerful for me


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

thisSux said:


> My wife and I are going through some similar stuff and if i look back i could easily say that i have been verbally, emotionally and mentally abused, recently after a really unpleasant episode we went to see our MC who not only suggested that my wife spends time working out what are the underlying issues that lead to this kind of dis-function in her life but also I need to understand what in my life has led me to want to be involved with this kind of woman.
> 
> I've realised over the last few months that despite some of my wifes behaviour being pretty bloody bad that I have enabled her to do behave that way, and the change has come since i've stopped enabling her, No i'm not going to sit down and have a drink with you tonight, Sorry i'm not going to fight with you or listen to you try to hurt me, that sort of thing has been really powerful for me


Our situation is so similar, thisSux. But my wife has special gift: she is very brave and dominant. If I let her down, she will make sure I suffer and suffer in a way that shows her dominance. She has plenty of tricks: spit on your face, throw things at your face, threaten to call police and make a scene. She wins because she fearless, take irresponsibility to a new height that I am afraid to match. She used to threaten to jump off the window, cut her waist...but I am grateful that these things she has not used twice. She is very creative in this. What a gifted girl!


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## thisSux (Jan 8, 2013)

she certainly sounds the creative type, but it is a power thing none the less. if you can take that power away you will stop hurting so much, listening to our MC tell us that I was a parent in our relationship and she was a manipulative child was a real step forward for me. I'd spent so much time thinking the way i felt was somehow unjust and then bang someone else sees it exactly the same way


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Now I am changing and see things differently. Here are my ordinary life:

In the morning, wife and son get up. I will hear my wife repeatedly order my son to do this and to do that. Lots of times they end up quarreling, with my wife out-loud and outlast the opponent. Then they go to school with a big bang of the door. I get up and make my breakfast. If I happen to go to work late, my wife will stay wherever to avoid going back home to meet me. Most times, she will spend the time chatting with her friends pleasantly or calling her family to show her love. Then I will go to work for a whole day.

The day usually passes without single phone call from each other. If she calls, most of the time it is about the money, the chores I forgot, or a nice remind of what I need to bring home. 

I work usually till evening. When I drive back home, I need to open the door in the dark. I remind my wife several times to keep the door open or turn on the light for me to use the key, my wife will get defensive, and later on will conveniently forget about it. 

After entering the door, I will find my wife and son have finished their dinner, with nice left overs for me. My son normally do not like to talk to me in order to show his mom which side he is taken. He sometimes manages to kick me in the legs, which will bring a smile on his mom's face. My wife will tell me how considerate of her to keep these left overs warm for me. I said I prefer the family eating together. She countered me to be selfish to have kid waited for me for dinner.

After hearing lots of such conversation, my son knows who is always on his side and take care of him, and who is not. He spares no chances to please his mom, while show a distance toward me. My wife usually picks up several things that I did wrong: I had place my shoes in wrong places, had been eating without manners, or I am just plain dirty so "please wash hands before touching our son". If I argue, my son will come to aid for mom to toe me in the line. 

To keep cool in such tense environment, I try to pop some jokes and put up some defiant smiles. That makes me look like a rebellion teenager, in my son's eyes, I guess. To gain some respect, I come up with a song called "everyone listen to daddy." That will make my son laugh and follow with " everyone listen to mommy.". My wife will emphasize how I am controlling, and call my mind a mess. She will gladly review the things I did wrong, which my son eagerly agrees and laughs. Anyway, my purpose was defeated again, but I am satisfied with bringing some entertaining moments in my family. 

After dinner, I am looking to my son, trying to be helpful in his study. My time with my son will mostly depends on my wife's mode: If she satisfied with my performance or if relationship is so bad that she want pull me closer, she will generously allow my son to be with me or even urge my son to be listen to me. Otherwise, she will instruct my son and occupy him with lots of activities that I should not disturb. When I complain I do not get enough time with kid, she will take this opportunity to remind me that I always come too late at home and I have not been an attentive father yet. 

When I discipline my son, my wife will become uncomfortable and come in for a rescue. Her tricks are many: time is up, be defensive of the kid, point out I am not perfect, already do well considering how bad our parenting (she tries to be polite by not explicitly blame me only)... 

If I am in a bad mode and shout at her to shut up, she will be extremely angry and pull all the stops to come out on top. Screaming, screaming and screaming...until policemen knock the door. 

But this kind of accident is fortunately not common. Small quarrels every other day, medium quarrels every week, big and scary quarrels every 1-2 months. So I used to cope, hope I can get something sweet at night.

Almost every day some phone calls will come in, most for my wife. My wife is popular among friends. She talks sweetly to them, being generous in offering help, being supportive and sympathy all the time, and being smart and confident in offering lots of tips on how to deal with lots of things... She is proud of herself to be so popular. As I have much fewer close friends, it just shows she is better in so many ways. 

The bedtimes comes. My wife usually start house chores at 11:00 PM. Most time she is still busy after midnight and remind me how much she has done for the family. Mind you: she is a stay home mom with one school age kid. She always reminds me how much hard work for her to do to be staying-at-home mom, at least much harder than my working 6-7 days a week. Because I do not earn enough, she has to do some yard work while a neighbor is using outside help. I told her he is a senior. She shot back by pointing out that she saw plenty of young ladies here doing nothing but playing with dogs. They have a much bigger house and parties. She remind me again that we are poor, which set a solid basis for her two everyday arguments: 1st I am not able to be a good bread earner, 2nd should not mail some money to help my disabled mom. 


Recently she is odd enough to play nice on me by reading Bible and some books on relationships before me. She says how nice she is and will go to heaven, while I am so bad that I even do not deserve to go to Hell, I need to be tortured to death and then go to Hell. This is because I am raising D word to her and she thinks how dare, how ungrateful I am to leave her. Hopefully she will soon find some closure in my such nasty behavior.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

I was defeated by my dear wife:

1. As a farther 
She pull my son out of me in term of intimacy and respect successfully
2. As a Husband
Sex-controlled and spirit-starved
3. As a worker
I work as a slave to her, she still sometimes threaten to call police to take work privileges out of me. She hangs her graduation photos on the wall as a esteem booster only and enjoy to be a master.

Although I am defeated, I was led to believe she is innocent: she is a good person with a nice and loving heart. If I have any doubt about her, that because I do not fully understand her anyway. Yes, it is impossible for me to jump my faith to see my dear wife as a nasty monster who intentionally do these things to me, although these things are real. I turn into myself and was bothered by these thoughts for 15 years of my entire marriage. 

My wife's secret yet powerful weapon to defeat me is very innocent. She just believe herself only, praise herself no matter what she do, only positive feedback was allowed, negative ones were 100% rejected. She just constantly validate herself no matter what, and constantly invalidate me no matter what. For me, if I agree with her, I feel good and get her praise. If not, I get rebuffed, sometimes several times, and ignored. If I fight back, she can either accepted temporarily and conveniently forget about it later on, or fight with me all the way to a family crisis. Most of the time, she select her options based on her emotions. So she is genuine, all the time. I was the one hiding my feelings to watch hers. So I am guilty and have something to hide. She is innocent and remains true to herself. 

What was wrong with me to allow all these happen to MYSELF?


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Every once a while, my wife plays nice on me and I get confused. I should not waste anytime to think of her anymore.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

loveisforever said:


> I should not waste anytime to think of her anymore.


Yes, that is a good objective. At 40, you have so much more to be looking forward to, LIF.


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## ChiGirl (Jan 20, 2013)

I'm sorry you are going through this.

I have been in something like this for the last 4 years, and it really wears you out, I can't imagine 14.

My only advice to my stbx has been.. get professional help, I can no longer handle it. I am not a counselor/psychiatrist nor am I a door mat.

Are you guys from different cultures?


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

ChiGirl said:


> I'm sorry you are going through this.
> 
> I have been in something like this for the last 4 years, and it really wears you out, I can't imagine 14.
> 
> ...


Different cultures? No. But her family is unique in many ways. Her families members are holding very tight and generally have a low opinion on other families around them, ie, they feel superior.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Last night, when she was away, I found my email account left open in her i-touch. She is secretly watching me, but giving no clues about it. I deleted it and changed my password. When she was back, she was mad and accused me of controlling. She raised her voice and talked to me like scolding a baby. I tried to force an boundary and told her to stop talking like this. She talked even louder. I threw one piece of paper to show my disapproval. She was in rage and tried to grab my laptop that I was working on. I ended with a fight with her. She threatened to call police. I threatened to kill her if her dared. She ran out of the door and keep screaming. My son was frightened and told me," Dad, although I like you to stay here, but you had better leave now to avoid things get worse." So I had to leave to my office to escape the scene. This was a typical game of chicken between us and I ended up being a loser, always. 

As I understand her better now, her rage normally lasts for 1 to 2 hours. So I drove back home in midnight. When I use the key to open the door, she had a childish behavior try to block me inside. Although she tried to look angry, she had a smile on her face. After I satisfying her by allowing her to kick me in the leg several times, I was allowed to go to sleep. 

In the next morning, she went to my room and asked me to ski together. I refused. She was upset, and repeated her tricks to make me uncomfortable: While I am sleeping in bed, she pulled the comforter away from me to get me cold, put away my pillows, open the windows in this winter... Of course, all the while, she dumped her unpleasure to me loudly by accusing me lots of things, some of it I will be embarrassed to let my son overhear it: like I am not a good father, it is my fault for last night's fight, I do not care about my son, my son will hate me and hit me (my son does hit me afterwards in playful ways to please his mom), I just want sex with her and she is happy to shut me down, I only care about sex, I am watching porns... 

I hate myself for not being able to divorce her sooner and can not stop caring about her.


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## Boundry (Dec 18, 2012)

LIF, so you are stilling living with your wife? Do you have a plan moving out?


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## Keepin-my-head-up (Jan 11, 2013)

Are you serious about the leg kicking?
I mean, when you go home you are greeted by your son and wife with kicks to the leg?

I am so confused man. Is this a cultural thing?
It sounds like a movie..


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

I second Boundry's request. How are you doing LIF??? Inquiring minds want to know.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Thank you guys for continued attention. My wife found this post and was mad at me. I do not know continued posting will do any good to me. 

Last night, she spit at me, kick me and threw shoes at me. She threatened to call police if I dare to resist. That was how mad she was at me now.

Besides record the facts, I can not say much. She is monitoring me closely. I need to keep her in mind to post.

We are heading to divorce. Roller coaster ahead.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

dude...enough is enough... you need to find your man parts and kick her to the curb...who cares if she reads this...what more is she going to do to you that you haven't already allowed? You do understand your son is going to grow up and be just like you and find a woman like her don't you? 


Man up and get out...and teach your son that what is going on IS NOT OK!!!!!!!


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

loveisforever said:


> *We are heading to divorce.* Roller coaster ahead.



Havent you been saying this for a while now?

Here's your first post:


loveisforever said:


> I had enough. *I am filing for the divorce now.* I do not see any chance for us to go back to a dream land of happy marriage. Am I correct?



Methinks you're not serious but just venting...


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

You're a doormat and your wife knows it. Just sayin.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Updated: In a process of divorce

Very stressful. slowly gaining confidence. I filed the Complaint for Divorce last year. Things move slowly.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

LIF, thanks for returning to give us an update. I was wondering how you've been doing. I'm glad to hear that you took action (filing last year) and, so far, have managed to avoid being thrown into jail on a bogus complaint from your W. I'm also glad to hear that she's still alive and not threatening suicide.


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## ShameLessLover (Nov 5, 2013)

LIF, I read almost whole thing here. It felt like my life fast forwarded 10 years. I am more like you and your ex resembles my wife.

Same, BPD-like swings, Her family is noble and I come from a family of devils, same control when it comes to connecting with my family; makes me feel like like $hit anytime she wants me to; _You have runied my life but there is no one in the whole world for me but you_,_ I hate you for screwing my life but I love you_. It's #ucking crazy. I am an engineer with a PhD, come from lower middle class, and She has this aura being wealthy (plus the most beautiful woman) who basically bought her Masters degree - my marriage does feel like the biggest failure of my life. Sorry for the ramble.

I wonder, how have you been doing now? 




loveisforever said:


> Updated: In a process of divorce
> 
> Very stressful. slowly gaining confidence. I filed the Complaint for Divorce last year. Things move slowly.


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## ShameLessLover (Nov 5, 2013)

YEs, and how is the equation with your son during the process.



loveisforever said:


> Updated: In a process of divorce
> 
> Very stressful. slowly gaining confidence. I filed the Complaint for Divorce last year. Things move slowly.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Hello Uptown and others,

Thank you for your continued attention. I am still in the process of divorce. She has already spent over $20,000 over lawyer fees, trying to paint me as a bad person who intentionally and deliberately hide income and minimize her alimony. I was charged $7500 lawyer fee. 

I tried not to upset her more and answered her needs as far as I could. It turned out not working. She use every chance with me to collect unfavorable materials against me. 

I am now heeding my lawyer's advice: I do not talk to her. We only communicate through email. 

She surprised me by trying hard to block my parenting time with my kid. My son was brain washed by her and is not happy with my insisting on divorce. But my relationship with him has slowly turning better than before: he respects me more now. Under the court order, I am now having parenting time with my son alone without her presence. I cold not get such chance inside marriage before! Overall, I am optimistic of my relationship with my son, and I believe it would be better over time. 

Recently she just fired her lawyer and her third lawyer had just contacted my lawyer to use her 401k account to pay her lawyer fee. 

It is an expensive and painful divorce. But I am glad I am heading to the right direction.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

LIF, welcome back and Happy New Year! It's hard to believe a year has gone by since we last communicated. Am glad to hear that you are still pursuing the divorce, that she hasn't managed to get you thrown into jail, and that she hasn't committed suicide. I am especially delighted to hear that your R/S with your son has improved and that you got the court to grant you parenting time without your STBXW being present. 

The fact that she's on her third lawyer really speaks volumes about how outrageous her demands are. Please don't make any large concessions to her. If she has strong NPD and BPD traits as you suspect, her "reality" is whatever intense feelings she is experiencing this very moment. It therefore is impossible to build up a store of appreciation that you can later draw on during the hard times. Any appreciation she has today will be quickly swept aside by the next tide of intense feelings flooding her mind. It therefore is good that you are sticking to emails and are enforcing strong personal boundaries.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

loveisforever said:


> Hello Uptown and others,
> 
> Thank you for your continued attention. I am still in the process of divorce. She has already spent over $20,000 over lawyer fees, trying to paint me as a bad person who intentionally and deliberately hide income and minimize her alimony. I was charged $7500 lawyer fee.
> 
> ...


My crazy ex spent close to 80k and I over 40k on the "divorce of the century". Neither of us could afford or had the assets for the bloodbath. Mine dragged out close to 3 years and we had no kids. It was all driven by her quest to keep me as the "monster", the focal point for everything wrong in her life. 

Been thru the hiding assets/income claims too. They simply will fight about anything and everything. I wouldn't even contact her via email unless absolutely necessary. No matter what you do or say your the demon right now, limit your exposure as much as possible 

It's an ordeal and right about the time you don't think it can get weirder it does. Hang in there, so sorry you are experiencing this.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

About her dad: I remember an old article in readers digest from the 60/70 era. Never marry a girl whose daddy calls her princess, she might believe him.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

honcho said:


> My crazy ex spent close to 80k and I over 40k on the "divorce of the century". Neither of us could afford or had the assets for the bloodbath. Mine dragged out close to 3 years and we had no kids. It was all driven by her quest to keep me as the "monster", the focal point for everything wrong in her life.
> 
> Been thru the hiding assets/income claims too. They simply will fight about anything and everything. I wouldn't even contact her via email unless absolutely necessary. No matter what you do or say your the demon right now, limit your exposure as much as possible
> 
> It's an ordeal and right about the time you don't think it can get weirder it does. Hang in there, so sorry you are experiencing this.


"I wouldn't even contact her via email unless absolutely necessary. " Same here. I was burned thousands of time by trying to achieve a better undersdading between her and me. My good attention can be used against me, that is what I learn from her.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

I owe you the greatest appreciation, uptown. It was you who pulled me out of the painful puzzling about my STBXW. I used to be lost in the endless thinking and asking the reason behinde her seeming unreasonable and unlogic behaviors. 

I will heed your advice and enforce strong personal boundaries. It was and still is a leartning process for me to enforce strong personal boundaries in real life.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Updated: Since my STBXW's lawyer argued in court that she should get more child support based on her parenting time, she has been looking for ways to reduce or forfeit my parenting time. My STBXW successfully manipulated our son to testify against me at court claiming physical and oral abuse. The judge believed in the kid and thew me a restraining order for one year. The social worker came in and concluded that the claim of abuse was not supported.


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## Lostme (Nov 14, 2014)

wow hang in there, hopefully it will be over soon.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

The pre-trial is scheduled in November. The court here is short of judges and is painfully slow.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

LIF, welcome back. Thanks for updating us again. You've come such a long ways since starting this thread four years ago. If your STBXW has strong BPD and NPD traits as you suspect, she likely has the emotional development of a four year old -- far behind that of your 12-year-old son. Because your son is able to grow and become more emotionally mature, it is good that you are willing to fight hard for as much custody of him as you can get. And it is good that the social worker supported your efforts when she recognized that your STBXW was fabricating the false claims about you not being a good father. November can't get here quickly enough! Am wishing you the best outcome at that pre-trial.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Uptown, thank you for your input. It helps me to think deeper. I am deeply hurt by my son's action. He took my words out of context to speak at the court to prove me a bad dad. His skills to misinterpret and badmouth me shocked both me and my lawyer. This is not only betrayal, it is also full of intentional false representation and accusation. Against your dad? This really shook me at the core. 

Our marriage was so bad that I contemplating the divorce millions of time before. It was the love of my son that kept me tolerate my STBXW inside the marriage until I could not. The nastiness of my STBXW was eye-poping for me. But I can take it. My son's turning against me has been hard for me. It hit me like tons of bricks. 

Whatever, I will continue to do my part as his dad, with the full awareness that the father-son relationship will be limited by his part. The protracted nasty divorce not only harms everyone financially, but also emotionally. It is a lose-lose situation for everyone, destroying minimum trust and any goodwill left, with the damage to be felt years to come.


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## caruso (Sep 23, 2016)

loveisforever said:


> Updated: Since my STBXW's lawyer argued in court that she should get more child support based on her parenting time, she has been looking for ways to reduce or forfeit my parenting time. My STBXW successfully manipulated our son to testify against me at court claiming physical and oral abuse. The judge believed in the kid and thew me a restraining order for one year. The social worker came in and concluded that the claim of abuse was not supported.


Doesn't get much worse than this.

She's actively alienating your son against you. 

Take precautions not to lose your connection with him because once he's gone it may be difficult or even impossible to get him back.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

loveisforever said:


> Uptown, thank you for your input. It helps me to think deeper. I am deeply hurt by my son's action. He took my words out of context to speak at the court to prove me a bad dad. His skills to misinterpret and badmouth me shocked both me and my lawyer. This is not only betrayal, it is also full of intentional false representation and accusation. Against your dad? This really shook me at the core.
> 
> Our marriage was so bad that I contemplating the divorce millions of time before. It was the love of my son that kept me tolerate my STBXW inside the marriage until I could not. The nastiness of my STBXW was eye-poping for me. But I can take it. My son's turning against me has been hard for me. It hit me like tons of bricks.
> 
> Whatever, I will continue to do my part as his dad, with the full awareness that the father-son relationship will be limited by his part. The protracted nasty divorce not only harms everyone financially, but also emotionally. It is a lose-lose situation for everyone, destroying minimum trust and any goodwill left, with the damage to be felt years to come.


You stbx is playing the win at all costs game, your hurt by his actions understandably but remember how much she is filling his head with "your the monster". She has pressured/brainwashed the boy, look how much she did it to you and your an adult. He will unfortunately learn the hard way about her because she will most likely turn on him at some point later in life.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Update: Pre-trial finished. The judge said it would be difficulty for us to do co-patenting under current circumstance. She is seeking full physical and full legal custody. Pressured by the court to get employed, she said she got a part-time job which paid her very little ( about one thousand a month, I remembered vaguely). She has a master degree. I wonder how many days she is working to get such meager salary. I know this is consistent with her intention to live a parasitic lifestyle and extract maximum child support from me. "Parasite" is a hot button for her =). 

The trial date is scheduled in the summer next year. She knows my posting at this site. So I am trying not to give too much details to leave clues for someone nearby to guess her identity.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

honcho said:


> You stbx is playing the win at all costs game, your hurt by his actions understandably but remember how much she is filling his head with "your the monster". She has pressured/brainwashed the boy, look how much she did it to you and your an adult. He will unfortunately learn the hard way about her because she will most likely turn on him at some point later in life.


Thank you, Honcho. I slowly come to term with my relationship with my son. I know how manipulative my STBX can be. I have been fooled and brainwashed by her for almost 20 years.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

loveisforever said:


> Uptown, thank you for your input. It helps me to think deeper. I am deeply hurt by my son's action. He took my words out of context to speak at the court to prove me a bad dad. His skills to misinterpret and badmouth me shocked both me and my lawyer. This is not only betrayal, it is also full of intentional false representation and accusation. Against your dad? This really shook me at the core.
> 
> Our marriage was so bad that I contemplating the divorce millions of time before. It was the love of my son that kept me tolerate my STBXW inside the marriage until I could not. The nastiness of my STBXW was eye-poping for me. But I can take it. My son's turning against me has been hard for me. It hit me like tons of bricks.
> 
> Whatever, I will continue to do my part as his dad, with the full awareness that the father-son relationship will be limited by his part. The protracted nasty divorce not only harms everyone financially, but also emotionally. It is a lose-lose situation for everyone, destroying minimum trust and any goodwill left, with the damage to be felt years to come.


Do not fall in the trap of blaming your son. You have no clue how or what she did to manipulate his actions. There are many men and women who can't see their kids because the offending parent manipulated a child against the other parent.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Final Update: Divorce finalized. Started a new life. Thank you for all the supports I got from you


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

How did the custody come out?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

LIF, thanks so much for coming by to give us another update -- as you did a year ago. Amazingly, you've been suffering through this a long time. It's been five years since you started this thread, at which time your young son was only 8. I'm so glad to hear that the divorce process was finally finalized. Here in my state that process took 18 months. Completing it felt like the clouds parted and the sun came out. So I'm happy to hear that you finally have it behind you. 

When you gave us an update a year ago, you reported that your relationship with your son -- who is now 13 -- had improved. I hope that is still the case. And, like Marc, I'm hopeful you still have partial custody at least.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

I got the shared legal custody. She got the full physical custody. She discouraged my son to live with me. My son is in a good relationship with me, but has not lived in my house since. He is in high school and very busy in studying. So I am letting him be and offering help whenever he needs me.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Uptown said:


> LIF, thanks so much for coming by to give us another update -- as you did a year ago. Amazingly, you've been suffering through this a long time. It's been five years since you started this thread, at which time your young son was only 8. I'm so glad to hear that the divorce process was finally finalized. Here in my state that process took 18 months. Completing it felt like the clouds parted and the sun came out. So I'm happy to hear that you finally have it behind you.
> 
> When you gave us an update a year ago, you reported that your relationship with your son -- who is now 13 -- had improved. I hope that is still the case. And, like Marc, I'm hopeful you still have partial custody at least.



Hi Uptown, I miss you and feel gratitude toward you. Thank you so much for your timely insight into my situation that helped me a great deal when I was lost and needed it most. Thank you so much, my brother!

Yes, my relationship with my son got improved soon after the vicious and stressful divorce. Now it remains steady. The good news is that he is still my son, he said I am important to him as a dad. The sad news is that he maintains a emotional distance toward me. Although he accepts the reality, he still can not get over with the divorce fully. I can see that deep in his heart, he is still feeling pain and shame, not whole any more. He has internalized what his mom feels. I heard friends told me my ex had spread various bad judgement against me. She feels bitterly that I had abandoned her and the family and told our son so. 

A great update from me is that I have found a girlfriend and we are working together toward a future marriage. She also left behind a bad marriage and an emotionally damaged son. There are plenty of woulds to heal for both of us. Frankly, although I want to marry her but I still have nightmares about marriage itself. She is very empathetic and accommodating to me. I am living a happy life now.

Another great update is from my mom. She is now happily living with my fiancee and me.We bought a new house in a nice neighborhood last year. We are pretty happy with it. 

My mom has been disabled for thirty years and had three emergency last year. She puts all these behind her and regains a fair good health right now. 

Thank you, Uptown. Thanks for all you guys here.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

LIF, what a wonderful surprise to find a two-year update from you! I am so glad to hear that your relationship with your son -- who must be 15 or just-turned-16 by now -- has improved. As to your son maintaining a distance from you, I agree that part of that may be due to the divorce (and the badmouthing your exW likely has done about you). 

A substantial part of that distancing, however, may simply be the normal, healthy distancing you see in nearly all 15 year olds. At that age, they are trying to become independent and it is common for them to be embarrassed to even be seen with their parents (certainly, that was my experience with my 15 year old step son).

I also am happy to hear about the great news with your fiancee, your house acquisition, and your now being in a position to help your mom by having her live with you two. With your mom having had 3 emergencies last year, I know you must be worried about her health. It is a good sign that, over recent months, her health has improved. I wish you and your family the very best, LIF! -- Uptown


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