# What's crossing the line for you?



## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Ok so yesterday I watched this tv show called "Taboo." of course they talk about some things others might not etc. 

One thing they showed which IMO was not all that Taboo, its not that uncommon at all. However, it was about a man who was married and had two kids, one boy and one girl. He was a game developer and they obviously were not hurting for money by the looks of his home. 

Anyway he went on to explain how he loved his wife and kids and would do anything for them. He spent a great deal of quality time with all of them. His wife described him as a wonderful, loving, caring, and helpful husband and father. She had only good things to say about him. 

At night time he retreats into his computer room by himself where he engages in a particular type of online fantasy game. They told the name of it. He creates his own characters etc. They virtually interact, by chat, or voice etc, he is interacting with other people from around the country who have characters online as well. Its a fantasy sex type of game. He has a virtual family. He has sex with these online fantasy characters. He showed what characters he engaged in, he even said his virtual family had daughters and he engaged in sex with them as well, because its just fantasy of course. 

He said how much he loved the game and his virtual family. His wife said she was ok with it. He spends a good deal of time on there at night, but it never seems to take away from their own real sex life. She said it was fine with her that he has sex with these characters even the ones who are his daughters, because he is not really having sex with them, even though they are chatting and telling each other what to do sexually. He even stated you can create emotional bonds with these virtual families etc. He said he loved them, not like his real family but he felt love for them anyway. 

So my question is, do you feel he has crossed that marital line? I know his wife is Ok with it since he is not having actual skin to skin contact, but if your spouse did this would you be ok with it? The virtual sex, the dirty chats, the emotional bond that can be created from the game. 

Maybe his wife truly is ok with it. Or maybe she feels she has no room for complaints, since he takes care of his family in all areas and she is able to live a life like she wants with the money he makes etc. 

So what would be considered crossing that marital line for you? Thoughts?


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## L.M.COYL (Nov 16, 2010)

I feel that the individual in your example has crossed, many, many lines already even though he has not having "skin to skin contact."

The emphasis is not on what he has, but what he could/fantasizes about. A wee bit of fantasy is ok, but making it a regular "goto" is an issue especially when it challenges your code of values that may pay lip service to superficially. That is the problem with these "games" in my opinion; they enable fantasy to become a reality.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

That is definitely crossing the line for me. My husband did something similar - developed a relationship with women strictly on line, although he was trying to take it another step and meet up physically. He never met up with anyone he met on line, but I still consider what he did to be cheating.

Because of that, he would be crossing the line now if he just chatted with women and it wasn't even sexual. Before, he would have been crossing the line if the chats became at all sexual. 

Feeling love for someone is fine, as long as it's platonic. But to feel romantic love for someone else, whether they're real or fantasy, is not OK in my books.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

I might be wrong, but I don't know to many women who would be ok with that, even though there was no actual real life sex going on. 

She must be used to the money and that lifestyle he provides, or she truly is not engaged in the marriage and she simply doesn't care what he does. The mere fact he stated you can form emotional bonds from that type of game should be a heads up right there. Even though there is no skin to skin real life contact, he is talking with these people sexually via chat so IMO thats crossing a line.

Also the fact he has a virtual family that has daughters he admits to having sex with with is just twisted IMO. Once again no real life contact BUT the fact that he has the thoughts of being able to do it virtually, there is something wrong with it.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

That would be crossing the line in my marriage, hands down. And it's creepy, sorry.

Hope - my H did something similar to yours, so any online communication is off limits now in my home. He can join a forum like this, that's it, so long as I have the username/PW


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## L.M.COYL (Nov 16, 2010)

Jamison wrote:
"Also the fact he has a virtual family that has daughters he admits to having sex with with is just twisted IMO. Once again no real life contact BUT the fact that he has the thoughts of being able to do it virtually, there is something wrong with it. "

Totally agree! This is actually quite disturbing imo. How can you find this to be acceptable and normal, especially since he has daughters. I think it's bizarre and troubling.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

It was weird for sure. When he stated he had virtual daughters he has sex with and that his wife was ok with it, I almost fell out of my seat.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

What kind of pea-soup fog is this guy living in? It's unbelievable what (some) people can talk themselves into...A saying I once heard: Just because it's all in your head, doesn't make it any less real.

Sex with his virtual daughters? I'd be packing his virtual bags and tossing his virtual a$$ out the door.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> What kind of pea-soup fog is this guy living in? It's unbelievable what (some) people can talk themselves into...A saying I once heard: Just because it's all in your head, doesn't make it any less real.
> 
> Sex with his virtual daughters? I'd be packing his virtual bags and tossing his virtual a$$ out the door.


:iagree:

Yeah the other thing that got me was how his wife said if he was really doing that in real life, then that would not be acceptable to her, but since he isn't its ok. Its amazing what some people find ok and not ok on their marriage.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

I think its TV. Fabricated to show you extreme closeups of odd things to make yoiu gasp, discuss how disturbing it is with your friends... and most importantly - to come back next time its on so that you can be just as shocked. I dont know anyone like that.. and I'd venture - neither do you.

Foget it. Its a TV show, and not some sort of philosophical test that you should take seriously. Its gussied up 'reality' TV, cloaked in pseudo 'education', (edutainment.. which means just that... garbage) designed for nothing else except titillation. My guess (and yes... simply a guess) is that there is far, far more manufactured content here than many would admit.

Other than that - I have no strong opinion on the topic.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Nah I don't have to forget it. Sure its tv show, but things like that do happen in real life. You're welcome to skip my thread thanks.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

Yes, its crossing the line. Maybe his wife is the one who lives in a fantasy world. 

Anyway, who knows maybe shes out banging someone else and living the lavish lifestyle, while he is all up in his little room, with his sex fantasy world banging his virtual daughter.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> Ok so yesterday I watched this tv show called "Taboo." of course they talk about some things others might not etc.
> 
> One thing they showed which IMO was not all that Taboo, its not that uncommon at all. However, it was about a man who was married and had two kids, one boy and one girl. He was a game developer and they obviously were not hurting for money by the looks of his home.
> 
> ...


Has all the earmarks of an emotional affair. He's escaping from his real family to engage with an ideal family instead. Very, very inappropriate!


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## Pandakiss (Oct 29, 2010)

that is a weird one...but, not enough to make me run for the hills. it would take a lot for me to be squeeked-out enough to leave.

maybe when i was younger i would have a different view on this.


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

Thinking ... I'll give my response later, but I would like to ask a parallel question if I can do so without hijacking your thread. I don't want to give my reaction first, because I'd like to get an answer from from someone who wants to answer without influencing it first.

What about other fantasy games like online war games or assassin games. Has someone crossed the line to becoming a killer if he spends a lot of time playing those games? Grand Theft auto, has the person crossed the line into becoming a thief and reckless maniac? (Sorry, don't know how to word that second question without leading the answer ... )

I'm wondering what parallels you might see.


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## dubbizle (Jan 15, 2012)

If his wife is OK with it and it works for them I don't care and have a good time,I think people take this stuff way to serious and are very insecure,it seems everybody wants to read something into something.


I would take out the part with the daughters that is not OK.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm a man and find it inappropriate. It always amazes me how some people have that go to response of how its about insecurity, No its not always about insecurity, its about morals and values one places on their marriage.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

dubbizle said:


> If his wife is OK with it and it works for them I don't care and have a good time,I think people take this stuff way to serious and are very insecure,it seems everybody wants to read something into something.
> 
> 
> I would take out the part with the daughters that is not OK.


It's not insecure to have reasonable expectations on your spouse, to expect them to respect you and actually stay true to their vows, foresaking all others. That doesn't mean just when it's convenient.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

This quote comes to mind:

Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.


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## twist.in.my.story (Jan 31, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> What kind of pea-soup fog is this guy living in? It's unbelievable what (some) people can talk themselves into...A saying I once heard: Just because it's all in your head, doesn't make it any less real.
> 
> Sex with his virtual daughters? I'd be packing his virtual bags and tossing his virtual a$$ out the door.


 yeah its gross and alarming.



trey69 said:


> Yes, its crossing the line. Maybe his wife is the one who lives in a fantasy world.
> 
> Anyway, who knows maybe shes out banging someone else and living the lavish lifestyle, while he is all up in his little room, with his sex fantasy world banging his virtual daughter.


 lol



lovesherman said:


> This quote comes to mind:
> 
> Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
> Watch your words, for they become actions.
> ...


 love that quote!!

This guy HAS crossed a line imo. The having virtual sex is cheating to me...because there is a REAL person interacting with him. The sex with the daughter is just...scary and disgusting and enough to make me question his relationship with his REAL daughters. Geez.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

It would be crossing the line in my book. Not only would he be crossing the line, he'd also be crossing the front yard and walk down the street with a suitcase in his hand! 

As for the comparison with other games with Grand Theft Auto, you don't actually steal the car, right? You don't actually kill a person, right? But if this guy is having sex with virtual characters is going to involve some sort of physical reaction in this guy.......right? That's where I see the difference.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

The "virtual incest" would be over the line regardless of anything else. But if his wife is aware of his on-line life, it's no different than a "regular" open marriage. A fair number of people live that life and are fine with it. So who am I to say that a virtual open marriage is not appropriate?

C


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

FourtyPlus said:


> As for the comparison with other games with Grand Theft Auto, you don't actually steal the car, right? You don't actually kill a person, right? But if this guy is having sex with virtual characters is going to involve some sort of physical reaction in this guy.......right? That's where I see the difference.


I'm glad somebody responded to this. I was afraid I wouldn't get anything before I came back to respond as promised. Your line is in a little different place than mine is - actually I see more than one line.

So acknowledging the poster who pointed out that "reality" shows are often over-hyped or dramatized, and pointing out the obvious that I have to draw on my personal experience because it's all I have:

First, as the father of two beautiful adult daughters, when I read the part about sex with his ____ daughters, I don't care if "virtual" is what goes in the blank ... I got such strong negative emotions on that! Had to struggle to put that down to think any more.

I see 3 or 4 lines actually. The first is a legal line. I don't think what he is doing is illegal, nor should be illegal despite how disgusting it is to me. 

Second, is his family. I find it very difficult to see how he can expect to be respected by his family. I'm actually a little puzzled by his wife. I would hope my wife would partner with me in keeping my mind where it should be - not nagging, but she can help with that, and set reasonable boundaries that help me, and I do the same for her. As a very minimum, I cannot see how he can think his actions are helping his wife feel secure and loved. Actually, I don't think he really thinks that. I think he probably thinks of it as some free expression, but he's not using his freedom as a chance to express love to his family, that's for sure. He may not have crossed his wife's line, but I think he crossed a line that is jeopardizing the long term happiness of his family. I would not fault his wife at all if she was not accepting of his activities - especially if it gave her concern for the welfare of her own daughters.

Third, WHO ARE THESE VIRTUAL DAUGHTERS? If these are the real daughters of his online virtual sex partner, then I'm going to be absolutely SICK! Surely they're not. Surely, they're either computerized, or someone completely unrelated who has entered into this fantasy game with them. And then, I'm not sure if the virtual wife/gf is computerized, but if not, then I'm not sure it would even be female ... so many problems here.

Then personally, how is he willing to accept this himself when he evaluates this situation? What is he practicing to be? Let me explain this one a bit:

I used to play Civ years ago. You could play that game either as a conquering empire builder, or you could try to build a perfectionist society. At first, I played as a conqueror since it was easier to get high scores. I learned that if I first made a pact with another emperor in that game, they would be caught offguard when I launched an attack, so I always made a treaty, then attacked immediately afterwards. But then, when I looked at Abe Lincoln of the Americans and did that, okay, even if I saw Ghengis Khan of the Mongols, when I did that, I actually felt guilty. I didn't actually hurt anybody, but I couldn't help but think what I was doing was still deceit. I then began to wonder what I was practicing to be - you know, the whole "Garbage in, garbage out" concept ... what was I putting into my mind and spending time practicing. When I thought about that, I stopped playing that way, and tried to build perfectionist societies, then soon lost interest and stopped playing.

So application for us now: Only our son is still at home. He wants to play first person shooter games all the time. I really want him to own the decision to forego playing those, and I have the discussion about "garbage in, garbage out" with some regularity. They have actually driven his interest to learn a lot of history, but I want him to think about what kind of person he is practicing to be when he spends all his time hunting and shooting other people. War may be inevitable sometimes, but do you really want to fill your mind with shooting other people, even if they are just nameless figures? It seems to me that there are better things to put into one's mind.

So I think the only line I could define that wasn't crossed was the legal line. Everything else about the situation I find disturbing ... but I will grant that it is their household and I don't run it.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

That would be crossing a huge line for me... That is just no OK to do something like that in my book.

It would be an emotional affair.


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## L.M.COYL (Nov 16, 2010)

anotherguy said:


> I think its TV. Fabricated to show you extreme closeups of odd things to make yoiu gasp, discuss how disturbing it is with your friends... and most importantly - to come back next time its on so that you can be just as shocked. I dont know anyone like that.. and I'd venture - neither do you.
> 
> Foget it. Its a TV show, and not some sort of philosophical test that you should take seriously. Its gussied up 'reality' TV, cloaked in pseudo 'education', (edutainment.. which means just that... garbage) designed for nothing else except titillation. My guess (and yes... simply a guess) is that there is far, far more manufactured content here than many would admit.
> 
> Other than that - I have no strong opinion on the topic.


Really? I'm shocked anyone on these forums would be so cavalier and dismissive about this. Words and images have an impact and what this 'game', a characterization I use loosely, is doing is facilitating abuse. 

What is not debatable are the well researched and documented effects of sexual abuse. What is unnerving in light of your dismissing this as disposable entertainment is the prevalence of domestic sexual abuse in families is, according to many specialists, VASTLY under reported. I think some perspective informed by contemporary studies into the prevalence and nature of sexual abuse in families and on victims is necessary.

I find it astonishing that such games exist, let alone that they have their apologists here.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Most of it I figured not my idea of a fun hobby but 'each to their own'...until you got to the bit about the daughters... that's a closet pedo in my eyes.
Makes my skin crawl.


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