# Differences in idea of what sex should be



## AverageGuy (Dec 18, 2008)

This is my first post so here goes. 

I am happily married to my wife of 5 years and we have two beautiful daughters 2 & 4.

Background: I'm 35 my wife is 32. When we first met our sex life was busy, lustful, passionate and new. We had a lot of sex and drank way too much. I could always get her a little drunk and she would be pretty frisky. This continued pretty much up to the birth of our first child. After she was born I even feel that my wife made an effort to keep things the same, like she didnt want our daughter to affect our sex life. 

We even began to get more experimental with backdoor play, that I brought up, between the both both of us and even some nude photography. Then our second child was born and things began to slow down a lot. 

My wife has also had some hormone issues, at least that what we think right now. Where she has had some thinning skin and cracking issuses around her parts, so things were very limited for the first 18 months after our second daughter.

We both work full time in sales and have busy schedules. The biggest change is that my wife seems to just want "plain old vanilla sex" and to have it over with as quickly as possible. She has no interest in foreplay, kissing, different positions, nor any toys that had so recently come into the picture. Don't get me wrong the sex is good, we always say we "fit together well", but I feel like its really lacking. Frankly I feel that my wife has become "selfish". It's her way or the highway. If she had it her way we would have sex at night only, after a shower, with no foreplay, no kissing before or during sex, in missionary or side position as quickly as possible, and she would be fine with sex once a week or less. The kissing part is also very bothersome. She has no desire to kiss during sex, in fact she doesn't even like it when I breath near her during sex, and its not my breath. We are also not allowed to talk or make noise during sex, which can really take the fun out of getting into it.

We do make time to be together in fact we regularly have bath nights 3-4 times a week, where we share a bottle of wine in our oversized jacuzzi tub. If I ask she is usually up for sex but it has to be the way I described above. I have asked her to mix it up a bit but she is never interested in it. I have proposed date nights or my choice nights, I have even created romance coupons for things I want that she could give me when she felt up to it. The coupons ended up in a drawer for 8 months before I threw them away after confronting her whether she was ever going to give me one of them.

Here are some of the things I asked for in the coupons.
-69
-oral sex, I haven't gotten a blow job in over a year and she has only finished once.
-different positions, different places
-Double penetration with a vibrator
-anal sex, which I do get on occasion and is great of her
-another lingerie photo shoot night
-video taping ourselves
-giving her oral sex with her sitting on my face

She tells me these things are way over the top and that no one does these things regularly, even though we have done a few of these things in the past. She says I should feel lucky that we have regular sex and that I get it more than any of her friends husbands do.

I keep bringing the subject up but it usually turns into an argument about who's fault it is, that I'm too demanding and that I have an over active sex drive. Which I admit I do, but what can I do about that, I already feel I masturbate too much. She doesn't like talking about sex, getting her drunk doesn't work any more, and if I bring anything extra up in bed she says she isin't interested so we usually just have the "plain old vanilla sex" i described earlier. Again I enjoy the sex and so does she but I want more, more variety, more spontaniety, more kissing, more foreplay, planned nights. I'm not asking for it every night just occasionally, even once a month would be great. Am I out of line? Am I asking too much?

What do I do?????? I even went and bought a massage table to give her full body massages as a way to introduce some foreplay, I offer them to her all of the time and she regularly turns them down. I'm tired of being the selfless one in our sex life.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

AverageGuy-

This happens a lot with women after children. You mentioned that she does not like foreplay. Does she still have orgasms?

What is happening is that she does not want the intimacy with you that adventurous sex includes.

There could be a number of reasons.
1)She is resentful about something, and you are the focus of her blame. This is the most common.

2)The closeness of marriage means that physical intimacy brings her even closer, and she just can't bear to meet herself in that way. So for people of this type "love" actually kills sex.

3)She could be having an affair.

There are several ways round it. My method is to try and find which category she falls into, and talk to her about it.

A method I have heard used successfully is called Takeaway-Sex. what you do is to stop initiating sex, and see if she tries. Once she does, the dynamic is changed because the ball is in your court. The problem is I could never pull this one off! I am told you have to act as if nothing is wrong, but you just forgot to initiate. But you have to act friendly all day, sweet as pie!

Then... (and this is where I am out for the count), when they finally do initiate, you say, oh, well I did not think you liked sex with me all that much so I stopped initiating and just decided to focus on the good things in our marriage. So you basically turn them down until they are really keen.

So you can see why I chose the talking method! In fact, we had huge rows. HUGE. But one day, the light bulb came on, and she went sex crazy.  Now we do it between 5-7 times a week, and get up to various things, not previously on the schedule 

By the way, the kissing and breathing stuff, are HUGE red flags. Something is up. I can't stop when there is an unsolved mystery.

Whichever way you go, you need to become your very own Sherlock Holmes.

some of the sex stuff is here:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-term-success-marriage/3010-20-years-august-married-18-years.html


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## AverageGuy (Dec 18, 2008)

MarkTwain thanks for your thoughts.

To answer a few of your questions and comments.

Yes, she does achieve orgasm every time we have sex. 
Reason (1) She could be resentful that I keep bringing the subject up and trying to guilt her into doing some of these things, which I openly admit to.
Reason (2) I don't qute understand this reason.
Reason (3) I know for a fact that my wife is very committed and is definately not having an affair.

I have tried sparingly to not initiate sex and she does initiate it. I know she still wants sex, its just boring sex. I don't have the typical issue where the relationship becomes somewhat sexless, its more of the fact that she wants the same exact boring simple sex, the same way everytime.

I agree on the kissing and breathing part. I have addressed it with her directly but I never get a strait answer. I sometime wonder if she has lost some attraction to me. I am 5'11" and weigh about 185 lbs. I do have a small belly, beer belly. It seems like I have 0% body fat everywhere but on my stomach where it jumps to 25%. This has been a change throughout our marriage.

To add some additional info on my wife. She is 5'5" 110 lbs. with a great body. She recently, 1 year ago, had breast implants which took her from a 34A to a 34C. She did this mainly for self-confidence issues. She also has skin complexion issues, well really mental issues, where she thinks she has skin complexion issues. She will find any rediculously small blemish on her skin and pick in into a bloddy mess like it was acne, and this is also a self-confidence issue. Outside of this she is probablly one of the most outgoing, likeable person I have ever met. She can instantly become friends with just about anyone.

She truely is my best friend, and I believe that I am hers. We are both Type A personalities, but when it comes to our sexual relationship I definatly am on the short end of the stick


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

> Reason (1) She could be resentful that I keep bringing the subject up and trying to guilt her into doing some of these things, which I openly admit to.


that is a circular argument, and does not wash, it would not explain her not wanting kissing. normally the resentment is of the form - you never do this, you never do that, you've ruined my life. I will be too old to have a decent career after the kids grow up. etc.



> Reason (2) I don't qute understand this reason.


There is a book written by Esther Perel, "Mating in Captivity" that explains this syndrome. The book is good, but it will make you angry! Basically, she says sex is an attraction caused be by distance. When some people get too close the loose the attraction. So you have to create space. 



> I agree on the kissing and breathing part. I have addressed it with her directly but I never get a strait answer.


And you won't. welcome to the "code". It is very hard to crack, and if you get close, they change it. there are 3 ways to get nearer the truth.

1) Get a mutual female friend to bring up the kissing subject and deviously ask your wife. This is wicked I know, but it could save years, as long as you don;t get found out. It would work by having you friend say, "You know, I don't know why, but I just don't seem to like kissing my hubby so much these days, and he is always after it, especially during sex". Do you know, you could sell that information, there are at least 5 guys on here with the same problem. My wife also goes on and off it - on the same day 

2) Similar, and just as devious but not quite so evil... speak about a third party, or a TV drama, and get her to talk about someone else. Just remember, that the male in the situation represents you, and the woman represents her. I have used this technique, but it's very hard to pull off. Also you must write down what ever you learn, or you will forget. the reason for this is that you actually enter an altered state of awareness when you do this, and it can be forgotten, just like a vivid dream.

3) Practise semen retention - this makes you super sensitive. This is my main method - it is the only way I can keep up with the female brain. Here is my story: Semen retention, the early days. - The sexuality support group forum


> > I sometime wonder if she has lost some attraction to me. I am 5'11" and weigh about 185 lbs. I do have a small belly, beer belly. It seems like I have 0% body fat everywhere but on my stomach where it jumps to 25%. This has been a change throughout our marriage.
> 
> 
> Yes, she has, but it's complicated. When you first got together, you pressed her hot button. Now you don't. but she still loves you, and she is attracted to you, but also repulsed by you at the same time. It is not your appearance, but because familiarity breeds contempt. Obviously, a flat stomach would help.
> ...


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## TNgirl232 (Oct 5, 2008)

I think your response to #1 might be on target - I know that my ex always pushed for sex every day and I got to the point I would say no all the time because I felt like that was the only thing he wanted from me - he criticized, how much I worked, my housekeeping abilities, and so on - but the sex he wanted. I said No because I wanted him to like me for me not because of the sex (that may sound confusing - if it is I apologize) - of course when I said No he would start accusing me of getting my fix somewhere else if I didn't want it from him.

I would say ease up a bit and not ask for a "list" of things you expect her to do. This may cause it to fill like one more of her "to do" things and as a mom she has plenty of those. I would try to suggest one of those things every now and then while your already engaged in sex - not before hand - it could just add to her stress.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

TNgirl232 said:


> We got married 3 years later and divorced 5 years after that. Fault on all sides - affairs on both sides - needless to say bad times


OK, but in your own thread, you admit to #3 

But I'm not judging - at all. It's just that you proved that #3 is valid. And again, can you explain the kissing thing? We men really need to understand that one...

Out of interest, do you think that knowing what you know now, you could have made it work with your Ex?


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## TNgirl232 (Oct 5, 2008)

Don't worry not feeling judged. I did what I did and it was a mistake and won't be repeated.

#3 happened after 6 or more years of the pushing for sex . And I found someone I thought "accepted me for me" before moving on to the sex parts. 

No we wouldn't of worked it out, I think I married him because we had a child and I was "suppose" to, but we were just to different. He was controlling and mentally/emotionally abusive which I didn't realize until I got out of our small town and got a job in a city where people had more open minds. Did a serious number on my self esteem which I still deal with feelings of "not being good enough". None of that is trying to excuse the affair I had by any means - just the answer to your question .


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## TNgirl232 (Oct 5, 2008)

Forgot the kissing stuff  - the only thing I can think of from personal experience is that if she is feeling pressure (or just wants an orgasm) then its all about the quick, and kissing and foreplay aren't needed for that - I know I use to be that way - I would just roll over and have sex just to get him to shut up and not complain - I didn't care about an orgasm or not, and he didn't care as long as he got his. Women need the emotional connection/feelings before sex - guys tend to need the physical connection to reach the emotional - at least that's what I've noticed.


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## AverageGuy (Dec 18, 2008)

TNgirl232 said:


> Forgot the kissing stuff  - the only thing I can think of from personal experience is that if she is feeling pressure (or just wants an orgasm) then its all about the quick, and kissing and foreplay aren't needed for that - I know I use to be that way - I would just roll over and have sex just to get him to shut up and not complain - I didn't care about an orgasm or not, and he didn't care as long as he got his. Women need the emotional connection/feelings before sex - guys tend to need the physical connection to reach the emotional - at least that's what I've noticed.


I think you have it, that she just wants to have an orgasm since its easier for her. Sometime I feel like the roles are reversed in our relationship, where I want kissing and foreplay (more typical of the woman) and she just wants and orgasm (more typical of the guy).

I'm sort of worried about the kissing, and the feeling that all of this combined has something to do with a loss of physical attraction that she denies. She has openly admitted that she doesn't like my belly, but insists shes still attracted to me. Is she just being nice not trying to hurt my feelings?

"Women need the emotional connection/feelings before sex - guys tend to need the physical connection to reach the emotional - at least that's what I've noticed." - I agree as well sometimes I'm told that "I didnt listen to her when she was telling me something earlier", and thats why she's not interested.

I haven't heard much about why my wife is so reluctant to even compromise even a little. Am I asking for too much? Is she really not being selfish?


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## AverageGuy (Dec 18, 2008)

MarkTwain
Quote:
I agree on the kissing and breathing part. I have addressed it with her directly but I never get a strait answer. 

And you won't. welcome to the "code". It is very hard to crack, and if you get close, they change it. there are 3 ways to get nearer the truth.

1) Get a mutual female friend to bring up the kissing subject and deviously ask your wife. This is wicked I know, but it could save years, as long as you don;t get found out. It would work by having you friend say, "You know, I don't know why, but I just don't seem to like kissing my hubby so much these days, and he is always after it, especially during sex". Do you know, you could sell that information, there are at least 5 guys on here with the same problem. My wife also goes on and off it - on the same day 

Probably impossible.

2) Similar, and just as devious but not quite so evil... speak about a third party, or a TV drama, and get her to talk about someone else. Just remember, that the male in the situation represents you, and the woman represents her. I have used this technique, but it's very hard to pull off. Also you must write down what ever you learn, or you will forget. the reason for this is that you actually enter an altered state of awareness when you do this, and it can be forgotten, just like a vivid dream.

Possible but based on my recent direct inquiries she would figure it out in a second.

3) Practise semen retention - this makes you super sensitive. This is my main method - it is the only way I can keep up with the female brain. Here is my story: Semen retention, the early days. - The sexuality support group forum


> I don't know if I could make it. As I mentioned I feel lilke I have a hyper active sex drive. Normally I'm masturbating daily just to take the edge off and to keep myself from putting too much pressure on my wife.
> 
> What I need is a pill that wacks my libido down to nothing!
> 
> I just want to get my way so bad! Even if its just once a week. The sex can be mind blowing with a little added passion and KISSING from her!


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## AverageGuy (Dec 18, 2008)

Would her self confidence issues come into play at all?


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

AverageGuy said:


> Would her self confidence issues come into play at all?


Absolutely.

But did you read the link to my website? if you read the whole site you will see that it was the semen retention that enabled me to finally get through to my wife.

She is on that site as well, so you can read it all from her point of view. Dude, you either want this or you don't. When someone tells you the secret of their sucsess, don't just kick them out of bed so easily.

In any case, sex gets so mind-blowing when you practise semen retention, every thrust is so mind blowing, you will feel like you are in heaven. And women get very intoxicated by seeing a man control himself. I now find ejaculation quite boring, compared to everything else. I just do it from time to time to stay healthy.


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## AverageGuy (Dec 18, 2008)

MarkTwain
I just read your thread on retention. Its an interesting philosophy. I may try it, but I will have a major obstacle - my wife. She normally orgasms on my ejaculation, she says it the best part of sex between us. As I have mentioned earlier I have been masturbating a lot over the past year, and I have just started reading about the hormone implications of this, so it plays into your idea. I would find it difficult to control, I have tried controlling it during sex to prolong the moment with some success but once you hit that edge its hard to keep from teetering over it.

I appreciate the insight, but at this point with all of the other ideas I'm trying to get my wife to accept I can't see her being any more into this idea than my others. This is my big problem I can't get her to entertain anything outside of the "plain vanilla sex" we have every time the say way. Everytime I get a new idea she brings up my overactive sex drive and says she not interested. This again brings me all the way back to the starting point of the thread.

How to I get my wife to be less selfish and give me more of what I want? 

I appreciate everyones input into what I can do, but how do I sway her? Maybe I haven't emphasized it enough, but I typically go way above and beyond your AverageGuy in the romance and domestic department hoping to persuade her. 

She would with out a doubt call me the romantic one, and I'm also much more domestic than you can imagine. So its not like I'm not helping out or pulling my weight.

She has even admitted that she is selfish.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

AverageGuy said:


> What do I do?????? I even went and bought a massage table to give her full body massages as a way to introduce some foreplay, I offer them to her all of the time and she regularly turns them down. I'm tired of being the selfless one in our sex life.


Is this really a selfless act, to give her a full body massage? If it's introducing foreplay as you say, your motive is really about having sex afterward.


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## Farfignewton (Aug 10, 2008)

I do not think that any of your requests are abnormal especially because she used to love this stuff.

I think she may have a self esteem issue from the problems caused by the second pregnancy.

I avoided kissing at one point to keep things non-sexual.


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## AverageGuy (Dec 18, 2008)

Swedish: I consider it selfless because she is again getting the benefit more than I am and again it normally ends up with the same old plain vanilla sex.

Farfignewton: Is there anything I can do to help her get past the self esteem issue? She in general avoids kissing away from sex, except for a peck to say goodbye. I think she has always avoided this knowing it would get me going, so yes she is sometimes trying to keep it non-sexual. But when it is time for sex, which she enjoys, she avoids kissing.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

AverageGuy-

My wife did not like me withholding my ejaculations at first, for exactly the same reasons yours, but then she got into it. As time went by, I became almost angry, because I realized that my semen belonged to ME! and she did not appreciate it anyway. As you can read on my site, she soon changed her tune  

Our situation was the same as yours, she basically called all the shots, and almost anything new was rejected. But she did not turn me down very often, so although I complained (a lot), I was pacified.

There is a lot I could tell you about how semen retention opens doors, but only 1 man in 1000 seems to be interested in the journey. On this site, one man has taken me up, and two women!


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## brad (Jul 31, 2008)

AverageGuy said:


> Swedish: I consider it selfless because she is again getting the benefit more than I am and again it normally ends up with the same old plain vanilla sex.
> 
> Farfignewton: Is there anything I can do to help her get past the self esteem issue? She in general avoids kissing away from sex, except for a peck to say goodbye. I think she has always avoided this knowing it would get me going, so yes she is sometimes trying to keep it non-sexual. But when it is time for sex, which she enjoys, she avoids kissing.


Your wife sounds a lot like mine. My wife is very hot but has low self esteem. 

By the way your massage table thing is not a selfless act at all. NOt considering your motives.


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## Farfignewton (Aug 10, 2008)

I don't know her personally, but for me, when my husband looks at me a certain way or just holds me tightly for a long time, it makes me feel good. We are currently separated and sex was one of the big problems that we had though our situations are reversed. He didn't want it for so long that I got turned off and then refused to give it to him when he wanted and refused to kiss him during the act when I wanted it. 

You say that you bring up the freaky stuff. Why not just do it? My husband woke me up from a nap by going down on me and that was awesome! I don't know why, but when a man asks or suggests something, if her personality is anything like mine at least, it is a turnoff. I like for my man to get me really hot and bothered and what really gets me going is him breathing hard or shaking while we kiss. Basically, just "feeling" his want of me and not him telling me about it. Once he gets me really going then he can introduce damn near whatever and I'm all for it.

What did she like out of that list? Try springing it on her again, but gently.

Sometimes, it's hard to rekindle your sexuality after you have children. Childbirth screws up your body so bad sometimes that you don't feel like you anymore and you don't feel like you have "it" anymore. Like your mojo up and left you.

Does she get her hair done or take care of herself so that she feels like a sexy woman? When was the last time that she got a manicure, etc.? Maybe she needs something along those lines so that she feels more like a vibrant female and less like the woman who sits next to you on the couch every night.

Buy her some really nice lotion and rub her down and then later on touch her skin and comment about how nice it feels or how pretty it looks. The point is to show her that you see her as a sexy woman without actually mentioning sex or pushing the sex on her. I seriously think that she is either too stressed out from you guys' busy life or she has low self esteem or a combination of both.

Maybe you could suggest mutual masturbation where you describe fantasies about each other to each other in order to get her talking to you about sex in a positive way. 

Be playful throughout the day and pat her on the hiney or kiss her on the back of the neck. Sexualized affection. 

I hope at least one of these suggestions helps. Good luck.


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## lostluv (May 12, 2008)

Does she only not kiss during sex? Is she ok with daily casual affection? If these answers are yes then I would say the kissing is directly related to the sexual experience. If the answers are no then it seems you have a bigger problem at hand.

If she no longer feels the emotional connection that the two ofyou once had then she may be avoiding kissing, etc. because she is opposed to how it feels. I have issues kissing my H because with our current situation it feels forced. I don't like being passionaly kissed when it does not feel that the passion is being produced from within as well. Kinda makes me feel like I'm being smothered or mauled. Bottom line its uncomfortable. 

In reguards to the actual sexual issues at hand there could be many reasons:
If it was painful before shemay fear pain again.

If she is exhausted from the day's schedule she may not have the energy to put forth more effort.

During the day she is focused on the day to day activities of life and the children, she doesn't see time in the schedule to "fool around". It has simply became a non priority.

After the shower is when she feels most relaxed.

Any number of these or any other reasoning could be your culprit.

This may not be the situation in your case at all but I think you need to analize the big picture more before you will be able to understand the details.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

listen to *lostluv*...

The kissing thing is so important. It is a huge red flag. A lot of men with problems in their marriages say it started with the kissing going downhill. You will find that in a lot of threads on this site. So you need to take action now. Investigate.

After 5 years of no kissing, the sex usually goes down the plughole as well.


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## humpty dumpty (Nov 26, 2008)

hey just cuddle her for a few weeks ...this make woman feel so much more in control a cuddle with out making love no presure .....then in time build up to a massarge. take her on a date again take things slow


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## AverageGuy (Dec 18, 2008)

Farfignewton and lostluv - Thanks for your thoughts its nice to get a womens perspective.



Farfignewton said:


> IYou say that you bring up the freaky stuff. Why not just do it? My husband woke me up from a nap by going down on me and that was awesome! I don't know why, but when a man asks or suggests something, if her personality is anything like mine at least, it is a turnoff. I like for my man to get me really hot and bothered and what really gets me going is him breathing hard or shaking while we kiss. Basically, just "feeling" his want of me and not him telling me about it. Once he gets me really going then he can introduce damn near whatever and I'm all for it.


I guess this is one of the best ideas, but I just can't seem to get her this hot before she is just telling me to mount up. She normally just wants to have sex instead. This is the point I need to get her to, but how do I get her worked up if shes not a big fan of foreplay or kissing? I think this might give me the window I'm looking for to prolong the experience and give me an opportunity to try a few different things. I definatley agree that I should stop talking about and and just do it.

lostluv: Does she only not kiss during sex? Is she ok with daily casual affection? If these answers are yes then I would say the kissing is directly related to the sexual experience. If the answers are no then it seems you have a bigger problem at hand.

She is definately Ok with the daily casual affection, so I don't feel like I have a bigger problem. It's definatley directly related to the sexual experience like you mentioned. How can I get her to overcome this?

I just want to say exeryones advice and opionions have been great. I was leary of posting but it seems when you can be anmyous its much easier to just put it all out on the table.


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## lostluv (May 12, 2008)

She is definately Ok with the daily casual affection, so I don't feel like I have a bigger problem. It's definatley directly related to the sexual experience like you mentioned. How can I get her to overcome this?



Pillow talk! Does she accept you just holding her and cuddling? If so that can be the perfect time. Make it part of a conversation without making it feel like you are trying to come on to her.

Maybe "Hey, I was wonderin...do you have any fantasies about...?". "If you could have any sexual experience you could think of what would it be?" "What do you enjoy most about our sexual relationship?" "What do you least enjoy?" 

These are all good questions to get a conversation going IMO. As an added bonus, if she is like me, getting her to open up and start talking about it will get her thinking about it and who knows where it could lead....:woohoo:


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## Farfignewton (Aug 10, 2008)

Have you asked her in a non-threatening way what the problem is? I acted that way because of resentment for him not doing what he needed to do as a husband among other things, and because of body issues from having my second child.

I'd approach it from all angles.

As for the kissing thing, I suggest kissing her from head to toe. Kiss her everywhere except for her mouth. Do it with passion. Whisper sweet/sexy nothings in her ear as you kiss her neck, like about how hot she is, etc.

Do you guys do date night?


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