# How to get the Truth out of Man...



## snix11

My husband says he's happy with us, but suddenly never wants sex any more. He swears there is nothing wrong, it's just him, etc.

I don't suspect any other women but he does look at porn on the internet. 

I am overweight, but have been since we met three years ago. He swears it's not the physical he's attracted to sexually but the mental (should I believe him?)

We fu**ed like minks for the first six months while we were dating. He moved in, immed stopped any kind of sexual desire. We now have sex maybe once every other month. 

He gets aroused easily, stays hard when we do have sex and has no problem coming so I don't suspect anything physical.

For a long time our sex life consisted of me giving him oral, then him rolling over and falling asleep. Seems like he's not 'into' me sexually, huh?

I got kind of tired of being the one giving all the time and stopped to see if he'd get the hint. No dice. 

Still he swears nothing is wrong, he loves me, etc.

How do i get the real reason out of him? 

Some hints I've gotten: (his quotes)

1. Before I moved in, we didn't really know the daily stuff about each other.
2. It's just the natural way of relationships
3. It's not you, it's me (won't elaborate)
4. No, there is nothing you are doing wrong
5. I love the way you give me bj's

Puts up Jessica Rabbit as his desktop background
has a huge thing for redheads - will tell women online that he thinks his heart just stopped if he finds out they are redheads. 
I'm a brunette, but dyed my hair red for him. He said he didn't like it and only liked natural redheads. 
The porn he watches is your typical stuff - hard core, skinny women, redheads and girl on girl. 

is it me? is it him? how do I find out?


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## Blanca

snix11 said:


> My husband says he's happy with us, but suddenly never wants sex any more. He swears there is nothing wrong, it's just him, etc.
> 
> is it me? is it him? how do I find out?


I never got the truth out of my H. I had to come to understand it on my own. he's a porn addict and was constantly checking out other girls. i was lucky to get a side glance from him. Even to this day I cant get a straight answer out of him. but then, i dont listen to what he says anymore. only what he does. so i guess in that aspect, he tells me everything i need to know.

Is it him? of course it is. he tells you he only likes red-heads, flirts with them, and then says he only likes 'natural' red heads. nice. and then goes and gets it from his porn girls. what does he do to show you he is attracted to you? there's your answer. he probably is happy with how things are. he's getting what he wants. 

Is it you? my H would always say it wasnt me, too. to this day i still think he's not attracted to me. but the hard reality of it is that your H could very well not be attracted to you. what you have to come to terms with is even if he's not, that doesnt mean you arent. if he's not attracted to you, does that mean that every man isnt?? that's the real question. dont let this one selfish, self-absorbed guy dictate how you feel about yourself. just because one guy isnt, that doesnt mean another man wont be. But if you are starting to feel that you are not attractive in general, then you have to work on that yourself. You may not be attractive to him, but that does not mean you are not attractive. You have to do things to build up your confidence. Go to the gym, the spa, eat better, and pick up a new hobby. Dont do it for him though. do it for you.

Part of your loss of confidence is how you allow him to approach you sexually. after i learned about boundaries and who should have access to what, i started putting up boundaries in accordance with my H's behavior. I actually didnt let my H even touch me for awhile. Some nights he slept on the couch. If he didnt want to sleep on the couch, i'd go to a hotel. After i felt comfortable letting him touch me and sleep in the same bed as me, he would only see me naked if he was already turned on, and then only if i actually felt good about being with him, which was few and far between for awhile. it was really hard for me to do. i have a high libido. and of course it took its emotional toll. i was very lonely. but my boundaries really caught his attention. things are much better between us now, so it was worth it. 

There was no way i was going to stay in a sexless marriage while my H went off and got his elsewhere. I gave him two ultimatums. one, he had to go see a counselor. two, he had to work on stopping porn all together. If he wouldnt then i would have left. i think you need to sit down and think about what you can do to help yourself and what he needs to do for you to have some hope for your marriage.


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## GAsoccerman

telll him to stay away from my wife! LOL (see my photo album)

How long have you lived together? 

I guess it is just hard for me to understand this menatlly, becuase I am always trying to bed my wife, even after 18 years.

But there are allot of women that are just like him, so it is just not a man thing, it is a person thing.

Sometimes people get "comfortable" and forget the relationship side of things.

Maybe you should get some porn video's and watch then with him, and do some commenting on things you like....maybe that will kick start the sex life.


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## brad

he has no respect for you. Openly watching porn, getting blow jobs from you and treating you like that. I think he needs a bit of an eye opener. YOu need to force the issue much more to wake him up. I like the post about setting some boundries. Stop the blowjobs. 

I know the opinions vary but my opinion is porn is real bad for a relationship. He is looking at all these good looking women and getting sexually aroused and satisfied online. It doesnt leave a lot of energy and focus for you. Mabe he needs to decide which one he wants: you or porn.


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## swedish

:iagree:

while porn use might work for some and not negatively impact their sex life, I think in many cases it does for several reasons


gives them an unrealistic view on sex (it's all about pleasing me)
doesn't require them to please anyone but themselves
if an addiction sets in typically they will need more & more explicit stuff as time goes on


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## snix11

I did and have watched porn with him before. It's not a 'talking' kind of time for him, and he HATES talking to me about sex, our personal relationship, anything like that at any time. So i'm left guessing what he wants/doesn't want etc from me or us.

He'll watch the porn with me, get aroused then we have sex. But it's like he's not really there - ya know?

Thanks for the replies tho - appreciate it. As for you soccerman, keep yer redheaded beautiful wife to yourself 

"Sometimes people get "comfortable" and forget the relationship side of things.

Maybe you should get some porn video's and watch then with him, and do some commenting on things you like....maybe that will kick start the sex life."

Yeah, he not only got comfortable, but decided it LIKED it that way. Me, i need and want more. He says he's fine with an open relationship, but it feels kind of strange to me to consider one. 

Good to see someone happy and horny!


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## swedish

snix11 said:


> He swears it's not the physical he's attracted to sexually but the mental (should I believe him?)


No. He watches porn to get aroused for sex...how is that not visual attraction?

I would think he's talking about being in love with someone for the person they are inside...but as far as sexual arousal I think the porn is taking over on that front.


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## snix11

swedish - you are probably right. And until he is willing to talk about that or admit it, I guess I'm stuck.

Funny thing is, i'm so frustrated these day's, i'm even watching Porn! I always fantasize about him tho when I'm watching it. I wonder if that is just a girl thing...


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## MarkTwain

I know a way you can change this round quick as a flash...

But first, let me say this. You are asking the wrong question: *How to get the Truth out of Man...* 

He is already telling you the absolute uncomplicated truth, but you are in denial. To quote:



snix11 said:


> For a long time our sex life consisted of me giving him oral, then him rolling over and falling asleep. Seems like he's not 'into' me sexually, huh?


He basically thinks of you as worthless. But let's go into the mechanics of this. Once a man ejaculates he feels satisfied. So a generous man -and plenty men are- does one of two things. He makes the woman cum first, so that when he rolls over, she is already satisfied or, if he is not so bright, or perhaps because he came unexpectedly during intercourse when he thought the woman would finish first, he makes sure she cums afterwards.

But he is doing neither. Now it may well be that he has some huge hangups, and that these are making it harder for him, but it would cost him nothing to use his fingers on you, to good affect.

So to go back to my suggestion of turning it round. Resume the BJ's, - make them real nice and slow, and then just when he is about to cum. Stop. If you are not good at judging his timing, you will have to stop early, but this technique works best on the edge. When he asks why you stopped, tell him you want him to experience the frustration you are feeling. Do not offer to finish him off. If he begs -and he might- say, sure honey, make me come, and I will give you the best finale you have ever had! But do not, repeat not make him cum if he does nothing but promises to do it next time. I told you at the beginning, once a man comes he is satisfied and lazy.

One thing I must say though is that he is a lazy lover, and it's partly your fault for training him to be that way. Most women would not put up with the roll-over BJ thing. Once maybe, but not twice. By letting him do that, you have made yourself into a very undervalued sexual partner.


If a few goes of my technique don't work, or at the very least get him to talk to you about it, tell him to sling his hook.


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## snix11

Thanks for the reply. A couple of things:
1.	I am VERY good at knowing when he's about to cum. I can time it just about any way I want, long – short – hurry up – intense but great. I've spent years studying exactly what turns him on and how to please him. But I can and have taken him to the edge over 12 times in one session and can keep him there. I always felt it was my responsibility as a good lover and good wife to learn every thing I could about what he likes and doesn't like, what turns him on etc. He won't talk to me about it, so I had to do the shot in the dark stuff. Once he's aroused, taking him where he (or I) want him to go is easy. What I've lost track of (or never really knew) is what causes him to be mentally aroused in the first place. What makes him go "hey, i'm feeling sexy today baby - c'mere" Before it just seemed that my mere presence was all that was required. Now, no matter how I act, what I wear, what I do, what I say - he's just not interested. 

2.	I’ve tried the take him to the edge then ask for my O approach, he just got angry, or promised he would right after, or some other way of getting out of it. It finally got to where I realized if he was in love with me, he’d WANT to please me and he wasn’t in love with me. I got upset, depressed and finally just stopped trying. He won't talk about it, so I feel stuck. He says he just wants to be 'friends' but still sleeps in the same bed with me. I just don't understand it.

3.	Yes, I agree I had a hand in training him that way. But it seems he’s now HAPPY with that training and only wants to be interested in girls that look like porn stars. Er, redheaded ones at that!

4.	What the heck does slinging his hook mean?


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## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> 1. I am VERY good at knowing when he's about to cum. I can time it just about any way I want, long – short – hurry up – intense but great. I've spent years studying exactly what turns him on and how to please him. But I can and have taken him to the edge over 12 times in one session and can keep him there.


Phew, you are making my heart race, what a waste of a good woman!



snix11 said:


> 4.	What the heck does slinging his hook mean?


It means tell him to get lost!

Actually, he is at least to be commended that he does not mind if you take a lover. Some people put there partners through sexlessness and expect them to enjoy celibacy. However, it does not exactly make you feel cherished. 

I do know techniques for finding out what turns people on, but why bother? Do you really want to stay with him?

How long has this been going on?


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## snix11

Do I really want to stay with him? Only if he can find his way back to wanting and desiring me and treating me like a woman and not a piece of furniture, and SOON. 

I've tried doing and being everything he says he wants. I've tried eliminating all the behaviors he says he doesn't like. I've tried ignoring him for weeks (he didn't seem to notice), I've tried writing him notes and letters explaining how i feel and what i would like for us. I've tried being super sweet, romantic and taking the lead. I've spent thousands on marriage counseling - t0 which he gives great lip service and does none of the 'homework' which consists of making time for each other, talking, having sex, writing down feelings or problems. 

I ask him, at least weekly how i'm doing. If there is anything I can do differently to make him happier or more pleased with me. He says 'you are doing great. no problems. i really appreciate how you are meeting my needs and eliminating the things that upset me. No, nothing I can see that you can change.' but he still treats me like furniture. On a good day, which is any day i do not bring up our personal relationship in any way what so ever, or complain about anything and act happy and perky like June Cleaver - he is Edwardian. He will say "good morning dear" and give me a peck on the cheek. He offers to get me things if he is going to the store. He is pleasant and polite throughout the day. I get an occasional 'aunt Sally' hug (you know the kind) and another peck on the cheek at night right before he rolls over and reads his book and ignores me. 

And thruout all this there is no dating, no romance, very little sex, hardly any cuddling, not enough attention, no desire, no flirting etc from him. He says that he just wants us to get along and that we now have to be friends before we get any closer to each other. He also says - and somebody PLEASE translate this one for me - he's scared to be close to me and let his real feelings for me show because we've argued in the past. When I mention that we have stopped arguing he says that yes, we have, but it's WORSE when we don't argue because he's even more concerned about being romantic to me when things are going well. HUH? And I thought women were hard to understand.

So let me get this straight - you stopped wanting me, I got upset. we started arguing. you said you were breaking up with me but refused to leave the house. You reminded me every day that you no longer wanted me but expected me to act 'perky' and 'happy' so that you could get along with me. when i did, you said you didn't like it and now won't show me affection or romance because we are getting along too well. I give UP!

If he knows I've scheduled a Marriage Counseling appointment, he makes a point to be super attentive the day before and I will occasionally be allowed to please him in bed. The day after the marriage appointment he appears to pay more attention to me, then go right back to his usual behavior of ignoring me. 

He spends 90% of his waking time either watching movies (more than 5 per day!!) or downloading more movies or reading or on his yahoo email lists, going to joke sites (like gorilla mask etc) and lately looking at W4M ads on craigslist or looking up old classmates on line. He says he's depressed which is why he watches movies so much, but that leaves me to do the bulk of the business and leaves me feeling pretty damn resentful.

If I have to earn 100% of the money for the family (we have six kids between us) can i at least get some SEX?? heh, sound like a guy don't I? *lol*

We met, dated for six wonderful, glorious months - had sex every time we saw each other (every weekend, all weekend and some Thursdays) almost every time for hours, and it wasn't unusual to have sex/cuddling/closeness/holding each other/more sex for 18 hours straight. He sent me love notes several times a day, emails, planned dates for us, and we talked on the phone for 3-4 hours a night, *EVERY NIGHT* for six months. Yes, i thought i had died and went to heaven. After six months of dating like this he insisted we move in together. After he moved in, things cooled almost immediately. Within another four months we were down to having sex only once a month and only if i almost raped him for that. 

This led to me asking "what's wrong?" and him saying nothing is wrong, me getting angry or depressed and him getting more and more distant. more and more arguing ensued till this January (almost two years later) when he informed me (after I had just had our baby) that things were just not 'working out' and he didn't want to have a personal relationship with me, that he had 'rushed into things' with me and wanted to move out. WHAT?? Two years AFTER you moved in, got me pregnant and all that? imagine my surprise. Finally got him to say that it was the arguing, that he just couldn't handle the arguing any more. 

We went to a marriage counselor and I learned to shut my big yap - not an easy thing for me to do - and just not cause any waves at all, let him do anything he wanted, or nothing. He became happy, we weren't fighting, but I became more and more resentful. We still weren't close, we still weren't having any sex and he was working and helping out less and less in the business. It wasn't and still isn't unusual for me to work 7 days a week, 14+ hours a day while he watches the baby and watches MOVIES. We have a babysitter, by the way.

But I still look at him and there is this rush of love and desire for him, even now. Granted, the more he ignores me and treats me like furniture, the less it becomes. But what a shame to let that kind of love go. And for what?


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## MarkTwain

Let's cut to the chase. If I were you, I would give him an ultimatum. Sex 4 times a week or you go.

However, if you don't want to go down that path, the harder path is to trick him into desiring you more. You simply have to stop him ejaculating to porn. How often does he cum per week?


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## snix11

MarkTwain said:


> Phew, you are making my heart race, what a waste of a good woman!


*curtsy* Thank you sir, for the kind compliment - you are too kind. And that isn't all of my talents either!

Now will you PLEASE inform my husband what he's missing out on?

Sheesh... men! (present company excepted of course)


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## snix11

MarkTwain said:


> Let's cut to the chase. If I were you, I would give him an ultimatum. Sex 4 times a week or you go.
> 
> However, if you don't want to go down that path, the harder path is to trick him into desiring you more. You simply have to stop him ejaculating to porn. How often does he cum per week?


Are you suggesting blackmailing him into having sex? He's already complaining that I am controlling and manipulative when I even suggest we have a nice talk about our personal relationship or talk to a marriage counselor! Oh yeah, sex blackmail would go over swell...

Um... I don't think he does cum when he watches porn. Seriously. If he does, it's maybe twice a week. 

Low testosterone? heck I don't know....

Anyway, he just suggested that I go work out and take the kids. Wonder what he's going to do while i'm gone? :rofl: 

Trick him into desiring me more? Could that actually work? Oh "oops! i didn't know it was you, wanna have sex honey?" Just how does that work?


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## MarkTwain

OK, here is your homework. Find out how many times he cums per week. You have a PhD, it should not be that hard.


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## snix11

All right Mr. Langhorne, Film at 11. Well, info anyways. 

Darnit, I love that guy... why can't i understand him? I would do anything for him, just wish I knew what that was.

I'm not all together certain that a PhD in oceanography qualifies me to do a field test on sperm count... but won't it be fun trying? *grin*


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## MarkTwain

So just one question at this point... you mentioned the arguing... what was he referring to?


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## Honey

Seems to me, hun, he is more into porn than you. A shame, really, because if the girl were in front of him, he mostly wouldn't get any anyway :rofl:, so why waste your time on the internet watching it, when he has the real deal at home. Men need to appreciate what they have, but most of the time, it is after she leaves him that they do. 

It probably is the weight thing, but does the jerk know most of those girls are fake anyway, and a lot of work done to look good. A "real" woman is always better than a fake blow-up trashy looking doll. 

Some people (men in your case) would rather climb a tree and tell a lie, than to stand on the ground and tell the truth. 

Go workout, but do it for you, not for him. Buy some new clothes after, and let him chase you around the house, but hold out and don't give him any. :rofl:


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## snix11

MarkTwain said:


> So just one question at this point... you mentioned the arguing... what was he referring to?


Well arguing used to mean just that - disrespectful (on both sides) blaming, name calling nonsense about small unrelated matters when we were really mad about other things. 

For example, one of the kids forgot a jacket for school. Kid is already gone, we argue about who's job it was to keep track of the jacket (the kids?!) and blame each other. 

It almost always masked the real issue (lack of sex on my part, and ?? on his) that we have yet to work out. 

Now days, arguing means my having an opinion differing from his that I have the nerve to bring up, even in a thoughtful request. 

"Honey, can we go to bed tonight early and snuggle, I need some down time with you and I'd love to spend time with you" can now be considered arguing because it's a subject he doesn't want to discuss, ie a personal relationship.

"Honey, remember yesterday when you said you would pick up the baby's medicine on the way back from the store? you forgot it and it made me kind of upset. Is there anything I can do to help you remember next time?" This is arguing because i'm essentially blaming him and being critical. 

So I can't bring up anything negative or it's considered arguing. 

I don't know how to have a decent relationship where we are not allowed to bring up anything even slightly negative.

As for the how many times a week he cums - normally none, some weeks twice, but only if everybody is out of the house.


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## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> As for the how many times a week he cums - normally none, some weeks twice, but only if everybody is out of the house.


How do you know this?


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## snix11

Honey said:


> Go workout, but do it for you, not for him. Buy some new clothes after, and let him chase you around the house, but hold out and don't give him any. :rofl:


 oh heck, i could buy new clothes till i was out of closet space and he would neither notice nor care. It's like he's convinced himself I am now just a friend and he doesn't see me in any other light.

He's NEVER interested in sex, he NEVER chases me around any more and I don't think he ever will. It's like he's killed that part of himself - the part that either wants or needs sex from us.

Last night, we went out to line dancing lessons (long story). we got there a little late so we just sat and watched and I got propositioned to dance and several appreciative looks. He didn't care that I was propositioned and encouraged me to go dance with the other guys. I didn't but I might if asked again. Yes, it's a nice shirt  

He also says that jealousy is a sick emotion and he would never feel jealous about me and never has. Well, that's partly true - when we were dating and had a good sex life, he was plenty jealous (in a good way - possesive but not paranoid) and didn't think anything of it. Now that he sees me as just ?? it's like he doesn't care what I do or with whom.

I'm constantly told by other men that I'm cute/funny/sexy/pretty but the one man I'd like to notice me can't see past our 'friendship'. And this from the man who couldn't keep off of me for six months. I just don't get it.


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## snix11

MarkTwain said:


> How do you know this?


Morning MT! I asked him.  And correlated it with the times he's been on porn or had time to himself. The stories match. He has no reason to lie to me, and doesn't mind telling me all the times he's cum in the last six months. 

I'm not and never have been critical of his porn watching, so he sees no reason to hide it from me.


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## snix11

You know how else I know he doesn't notice anything I do? I tried an experiment (call it the scientist in me) 

He mentioned a long time ago he likes a woman shaved. Linoleum floors I think he referrers to it as - 

Anyway - I used to shave for him constantly - and what a pain that is, but it made him happy, so what the heck. Finally, after four months of no sex, i thought "why am i doing this again?" so I stopped. He didn't mention it or seem to notice. 

Not only that, but a month ago, just to see if he would notice or react, I shaved exactly HALF of me. Looks rather like some strange harlequin porn thing. Face this way, furry girl.. that way, smooth. He hasn't noticed. Like at all. and I assure you, it's obvious!

I sleep naked every night, so does he. How could he not notice? 

Obviously he doesn't even look at me any more. Like I said, it's like he doesn't even 'see' me any more. I'm a six foot tall invisible girl in his life.


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## snix11

Something else that really bothered me this weekend. 

I was at my most playful - and he said i was acting 'weird'. Before he would have seen it as playful and joined in, now he's so removed he sees it as 'weird or alien'. 

If i'm affectionate, he pushes me away like i'm bothering him - this was as he was falling asleep Friday - I was just stroking his head, running my fingers thru his hair, little spiders on his back (he used to love that) now he sees it as an annoyance. 

His behavior tells me he's 'thru' with me. Or am I reading too much into it?


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## Sabine

snix11 said:


> My husband says he's happy with us, but suddenly never wants sex any more. He swears there is nothing wrong, it's just him, etc.
> 
> I don't suspect any other women but he does look at porn on the internet.
> 
> I am overweight, but have been since we met three years ago. He swears it's not the physical he's attracted to sexually but the mental (should I believe him?)
> 
> We fu**ed like minks for the first six months while we were dating. He moved in, immed stopped any kind of sexual desire. We now have sex maybe once every other month.
> 
> He gets aroused easily, stays hard when we do have sex and has no problem coming so I don't suspect anything physical.
> 
> For a long time our sex life consisted of me giving him oral, then him rolling over and falling asleep. Seems like he's not 'into' me sexually, huh?
> 
> I got kind of tired of being the one giving all the time and stopped to see if he'd get the hint. No dice.
> 
> Still he swears nothing is wrong, he loves me, etc.
> 
> How do i get the real reason out of him?
> 
> Some hints I've gotten: (his quotes)
> 
> 1. Before I moved in, we didn't really know the daily stuff about each other.
> 2. It's just the natural way of relationships
> 3. It's not you, it's me (won't elaborate)
> 4. No, there is nothing you are doing wrong
> 5. I love the way you give me bj's
> 
> Puts up Jessica Rabbit as his desktop background
> has a huge thing for redheads - will tell women online that he thinks his heart just stopped if he finds out they are redheads.
> I'm a brunette, but dyed my hair red for him. He said he didn't like it and only liked natural redheads.
> The porn he watches is your typical stuff - hard core, skinny women, redheads and girl on girl.
> 
> is it me? is it him? how do I find out?



First of all i dont see why you are or were givign him bj gettign nothign in return
2) youahve to say to him I DO actualy needasexlife even you dont! so give me one or leave!
3) drop him 
4) take a box, fill it with all his porn magasin and video or DVD, and his computer, 
5) set it in frotn of the door on the porch
6) get all the lock changed while he is gone
7) leave a note saying "its finish between us oyu can go "pron" yoruself away solo form now on"
8) never talk ot him again.

He ignore oyu, disrespect you , had absolutly no concern for how you feel at all, did not consider as compeltely discusting that he get a bj form you and do nothing for you but fall aslee
so he can go see a shrink and youc an be fre from trhat scum!
he think he lives in the porn world..
with him as the movie star..
the one with the red hair is NOT GOOD!
get rid of that disease call your "bf".. 
he moved in make him move out..
the hting he said that it was because he didnt knew oyu before he had moved him is another way to say that now that he learn to know oyu he do not like what he got at all..
ask him, and you? you think oyu are better?
ask him " whats yoru life interest and your lreason for living beside porn"?
"do youhave a life?"
no he doesnt.
stop waisting your time and humiliatign yourself, you done that for far too long already.
he cosnider woemn as objexct, he like object redhair in the computer and ihe dont like object B brunette in his home. you dont count for him and he is nt emotionaly attacjed to you at all so why do you keep listening to his "i love you"???
of course he dont liove you!
he dotn care for you and to lve someone is to care abotu someoen and show care-
you could not come home for a week he wont even notice!
Take his computer and trash it or hidde it together with al porn he has. Put him on low-porn diet. Nothign at all for 3 weeks.
if he go get it else where throw him out.
Tel him :" thats the porn or me"
if he chose porn, show him the door. instantaneously. Dont wait, give him one hour to pack and throw him out.


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## MarkTwain

snix11-

1)Have you told him that his lack of sex makes you fell unloved undesirable?

2)That you are so unhappy you feel like leaving him?


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## Chopblock

and if you do tell him that a lack of sex may cause you to leave, be absolutely prepared for him to say "ok fine, go". I'm just saying don't put that out there and then backpaddle.

You could also suggest an open relationship and see what he says. Obviously you still love him quite a bit, which is why you don't want to end it right out. A lack of sex is a big deal though, and it will just fester and get worse.

Is he in good physical shape? Maybe he needs to work on himself too.


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## MarkTwain

Chopblock said:


> You could also suggest an open relationship and see what he says.


He has already suggested she do that himself - which I see as worrying...


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## loveandmarriage

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, BUT... He may not be into you anymore.

Which is fine. Why be with someone that does not want to be with you? You have SOOO much to offer a guy that TRULY wants to be with you.

I say, let him go and start having fun again dating.

If you don't want to leave, then at least find some girlfriends to hang out with and show him you have your own life, and it does not include him anymore. Get all dolled up and go out and have fun. And by all means, do not give him anymore BJs.


----------



## Honey

snix11 said:


> oh heck, i could buy new clothes till i was out of closet space and he would neither notice nor care. It's like he's convinced himself I am now just a friend and he doesn't see me in any other light.
> 
> He's NEVER interested in sex, he NEVER chases me around any more and I don't think he ever will. It's like he's killed that part of himself - the part that either wants or needs sex from us.
> 
> Last night, we went out to line dancing lessons (long story). we got there a little late so we just sat and watched and I got propositioned to dance and several appreciative looks. He didn't care that I was propositioned and encouraged me to go dance with the other guys. I didn't but I might if asked again. Yes, it's a nice shirt
> 
> He also says that jealousy is a sick emotion and he would never feel jealous about me and never has. Well, that's partly true - when we were dating and had a good sex life, he was plenty jealous (in a good way - possesive but not paranoid) and didn't think anything of it. Now that he sees me as just ?? it's like he doesn't care what I do or with whom.
> 
> I'm constantly told by other men that I'm cute/funny/sexy/pretty but the one man I'd like to notice me can't see past our 'friendship'. And this from the man who couldn't keep off of me for six months. I just don't get it.


Get your husband some glases for Christmas. The better to see you with, my dear. 
Maybe he suffers from








Do you think he has a problem getting it up? I have a friend that her husband does, but doesn't want to talk to his wife about it, because he is too  to. He treats her good, but she doesn't get any.


----------



## snix11

MarkTwain said:


> snix11-
> 
> 1)Have you told him that his lack of sex makes you fell unloved undesirable?
> 
> 2)That you are so unhappy you feel like leaving him?


Yes many times. He says he is "sorry" that I feel that way and feels bad for me. He seems sincere and not sarcastic. He doesn't "do" anything about it tho and my words and feelings do not seem to change either his general attitude about sex or how he treats me. 

Other than that, he is very kind, loving, sweet, considerate.


----------



## snix11

Chopblock said:


> and if you do tell him that a lack of sex may cause you to leave, be absolutely prepared for him to say "ok fine, go". I'm just saying don't put that out there and then backpaddle.
> 
> You could also suggest an open relationship and see what he says. Obviously you still love him quite a bit, which is why you don't want to end it right out. A lack of sex is a big deal though, and it will just fester and get worse.
> 
> Is he in good physical shape? Maybe he needs to work on himself too.


Too late. I did give him an ultimatum, months ago. I said he needed to get off the 'fence'. Either you love me and want to stay and help us be the best we can be for each other and make each other happy, or you need to go.

He came back to me three days later and told me he wanted to go.

I was shocked. We had been in marriage counseling, he was telling the counselor and me he loved me and wanted to work on us, he just wasn't 'doing' the loving stuff he was supposed to. when he said we were 'over' and he would 'never love me again' i was really caught off guard.

I asked him why. he said he didn't know. Not much of an answer. We talked about the divorce, and the baby and stuff. He said he still wanted to work with me in the business and hadn't thought about what to do about a divorce.

I do NOT want to be a part time mom to my 10 month old, which has kept me here with him, despite the problems. 

I don't think I could work with him in the business if we were no longer together. Him calling in late to work because he had a hot date the night before probably wouldn't work for me...

I asked him again - about two months after he told me he wanted to leave and asked how he felt now. Now he says 'he doesn't know' what he wants, he's not sure how he feels about us and he doesn't know what he wants to do about it. 
ARGHHHH. 

Get OFF The damn fence already!!!

I have suggested an open relationship (again) he says he doesn't know. SIGH. 

He's in 'ok' physical shape. He doesn't work out and is pretty sedentary, but is in correct weight and still has a good looking body from doing gymnastics in high school. 

Like all of us, he has good qualities and bad qualities. I'm just trying to figure out how to live without a sex life and WHY he WANTS to live without one...


----------



## snix11

Glasses  Cute...

No, he has no problems getting it up, keeping it hard, no physical problems.


----------



## MarkTwain

snix11-

If you want help in tricking him into "doing it", I am happy to rack my brains, but it is not going to be easy! Also, the effects may not last, so you may just be delaying the "evil day".

In your own mind, do you have a time limit, where you will exit the marriage if he keeps on ignoring your needs?


----------



## Chopblock

Then really, recognize that what is keeping you here is that YOU want to stay. That is fine and all, but it puts you in a very bad, almost powerless position. Since you are choosing to stay, you are choosing to put up with treatment that you don't necessarily have the leverage to change.

Until he has some legitimate danger of losing something he values, he will continue to sit and do nothing, and let you moan about it. Its like a child who knows that mom or dad will yell, but not really "do" anything; or like a boss who will lecture you, but never actually punish you.

He's even said he wants to leave, and nothing came of it! What would happen if suddenly you weren't so "available" and "willing". What would happen if he actually had to wait to see you, he had a chance to miss you cuz you were always out with your friends, and such?

Until there is some consequence, there will be no action.


----------



## loveandmarriage

Chopblock said:


> Then really, recognize that what is keeping you here is that YOU want to stay. That is fine and all, but it puts you in a very bad, almost powerless position. Since you are choosing to stay, you are choosing to put up with treatment that you don't necessarily have the leverage to change.
> 
> Until he has some legitimate danger of losing something he values, he will continue to sit and do nothing, and let you moan about it. Its like a child who knows that mom or dad will yell, but not really "do" anything; or like a boss who will lecture you, but never actually punish you.
> 
> He's even said he wants to leave, and nothing came of it! What would happen if suddenly you weren't so "available" and "willing". What would happen if he actually had to wait to see you, he had a chance to miss you cuz you were always out with your friends, and such?
> 
> Until there is some consequence, there will be no action.


:iagree: That's is why I recommended previously, hanging with some girlfriends. If he sees that you are not readily available, he probably will wonder what you are doing. He will also see that you can fun without him. Try it and see what happens. It can't hurt.


----------



## snix11

Mark - If you mean "doing it" as in having sex, all i have to do is insist, politely and he will 'go thru the motions' of having sex. three minutes, no foreplay and ignore me after. that's NOT what i'm looking for. I have a better relationship with my toys.

Time limits - funny you should mention that. I woke up again this morning thinking... THAT'S IT... i was up most of the night unhappy about being ignored once again. Then this morning he's all "good morning HONEY" and "how are you" and such. He gave me a hug, which he rarely does. He wrote me a off line text with a heart and a smiley.

Yeah. I should be FRIGGING happy. I KNOW. But i SWEAR he only does this when i'm already so unhappy I've given up. I don't want to have to get to the "I QUIT" phase before he tosses me a bone of affection. 

Timeline? Probably by the end of the year. I know i can't handle this much longer.

Chopblock - Yes, it does put me in an almost powerless position. I hate it! If I weren't so avalible I feel he will do one of two things:

1. Go out and start an affair. If she can go out with friends, so can I. Part of me feels this is exactly the justification he's been waiting for. 
2. Ignore me and be happy i'm gone. I don't see him really 'missing' me. 

loveandmarriage - Um... where does one cultivate girlfriends? I work from home, I don't know anybody, I don't have any living family and the only friends i had from college live on the other side of the US. Not sure what kind of group/?? I can join or meet people.

I've been living in San Antonio now for 8 years. I've always worked from home, rarely go out (always working or caring for kids) and don't know anybody except "his" friends and i've only met them a few times.

Suggestions?


----------



## Honey

snix11 said:


> Glasses  Cute...
> 
> No, he has no problems getting it up, keeping it hard, no physical problems.


Then maybe he needs a B-12 shot and take vitamin L.


----------



## Honey

snix11 said:


> Mark - If you mean "doing it" as in having sex, all i have to do is insist, politely and he will 'go thru the motions' of having sex. three minutes, no foreplay and ignore me after. that's NOT what i'm looking for. I have a better relationship with my toys.
> 
> Time limits - funny you should mention that. I woke up again this morning thinking... THAT'S IT... i was up most of the night unhappy about being ignored once again. Then this morning he's all "good morning HONEY" and "how are you" and such. He gave me a hug, which he rarely does. He wrote me a off line text with a heart and a smiley.
> 
> Yeah. I should be FRIGGING happy. I KNOW. But i SWEAR he only does this when i'm already so unhappy I've given up. I don't want to have to get to the "I QUIT" phase before he tosses me a bone of affection.
> 
> Timeline? Probably by the end of the year. I know i can't handle this much longer.
> 
> Chopblock - Yes, it does put me in an almost powerless position. I hate it! If I weren't so avalible I feel he will do one of two things:
> 
> 1. Go out and start an affair. If she can go out with friends, so can I. Part of me feels this is exactly the justification he's been waiting for.
> 2. Ignore me and be happy i'm gone. I don't see him really 'missing' me.
> 
> loveandmarriage - Um... where does one cultivate girlfriends? I work from home, I don't know anybody, I don't have any living family and the only friends i had from college live on the other side of the US. Not sure what kind of group/?? I can join or meet people.
> 
> I've been living in San Antonio now for 8 years. I've always worked from home, rarely go out (always working or caring for kids) and don't know anybody except "his" friends and i've only met them a few times.
> 
> Suggestions?


 Party pooper ! Playing around before sex is just as fun as the ending part. Sorry , but it is.


----------



## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> Time limits - funny you should mention that. I woke up again this morning thinking... THAT'S IT... i was up most of the night unhappy about being ignored once again. Then this morning he's all "good morning HONEY" and "how are you" and such. He gave me a hug, which he rarely does. He wrote me a off line text with a heart and a smiley.
> 
> Yeah. I should be FRIGGING happy. I KNOW. But i SWEAR he only does this when i'm already so unhappy I've given up. I don't want to have to get to the "I QUIT" phase before he tosses me a bone of affection.


Can't you see what's going on? He was nice to you because he sensed that you were moving closer to making your mind up. You do not need to talk about things with him. You need to have a talk with yourself. He will know.



snix11 said:


> Timeline? Probably by the end of the year. I know i can't handle this much longer.


Good, it's inappropriate to desire someone more than they desire you. For short periods it's fine, but as a lifestyle it sucks.




snix11 said:


> Mark - If you mean "doing it" as in having sex, all i have to do is insist, politely and he will 'go thru the motions' of having sex. three minutes, no foreplay and ignore me after. that's NOT what i'm looking for. I have a better relationship with my toys.


I am almost loath to tell you anything to prolong the agony, but try this. "Insist politely" as you call it, twice a week. Get him used to it. If you have any chance of making this work, you need to stop all other nagging, and just focus on this one issue of sex. If you can, you need to stop him ejaculating to porn - get him to save that for you, but that may take an even more cunning plan, so don't sweat it if it don't come easy!



snix11 said:


> loveandmarriage - Um... where does one cultivate girlfriends? I work from home, I don't know anybody, I don't have any living family and the only friends i had from college live on the other side of the US. Not sure what kind of group/?? I can join or meet people.
> 
> I've been living in San Antonio now for 8 years. I've always worked from home, rarely go out (always working or caring for kids) and don't know anybody except "his" friends and i've only met them a few times.
> 
> Suggestions?


AhHa! Now the truth comes out. You are an intelligent desirable sexy woman who shuts herself away. You have "settled" because you feel you can't do better. I don't know what sort of looks you have, but your other assets make you a very desirable catch - not all men are visual. In fact I would say that women are more visual than men, but don't get me started.

One more question... You said sex used to be hot and frequent with him. Cast your mind back. Can you pinpoint the turning point?


----------



## snix11

Honey said:


> Party pooper ! Playing around before sex is just as fun as the ending part. Sorry , but it is.



I know!!! :smthumbup:


----------



## snix11

MarkTwain said:


> Can't you see what's going on? He was nice to you because he sensed that you were moving closer to making your mind up. You do not need to talk about things with him. You need to have a talk with yourself. He will know.


whoa... jedi mind trick. Thank goodness I only have to think things from now on for him to 'know' what i'm thinking. Although, come to think about it (he he - are you picking up on this honey?) he ALWAYS had an uncanny sense of what I was thinking and feeling. We both did. I think we both still do, but he doesn't want to admit it for some reason. :scratchhead:



MarkTwain said:


> Good, it's inappropriate to desire someone more than they desire you. For short periods it's fine, but as a lifestyle it sucks.


I know!! (insert self pity here) 



MarkTwain said:


> I am almost loath to tell you anything to prolong the agony, but try this. "Insist politely" as you call it, twice a week. Get him used to it. If you have any chance of making this work, you need to stop all other nagging, and just focus on this one issue of sex. If you can, you need to stop him ejaculating to porn - get him to save that for you, but that may take an even more cunning plan, so don't sweat it if it don't come easy!


Ok, i'll try the 'sex no matter what' method. not sure if it will work to get me to the place I want to be, but what the heck. i don't think he's ejaculating to porn, btw. I KNOW he hasn't in at least three weeks. How is bad sex better than no sex? And if I get him used to "just doing it" twice a week, how do I get him to start REALLY having sex again? You know, foreplay, fun, diff positions, toys, acting like he likes it...all the fun stuff?



MarkTwain said:


> AhHa! Now the truth comes out. You are an intelligent desirable sexy woman who shuts herself away. You have "settled" because you feel you can't do better. I don't know what sort of looks you have, but your other assets make you a very desirable catch - not all men are visual. In fact I would say that women are more visual than men, but don't get me started.
> 
> One more question... You said sex used to be hot and frequent with him. Cast your mind back. Can you pinpoint the turning point?


I'm a wha? lol. I never really thought of it as 'shutting myself away'. I was in a 10 yr really controlling abusive relationship in which i wasn't even allowed to go to the grocery store alone because of his jealousy. Thank goodness hubby isn't like that! 

It's not so much I don't think I can do better - but I have an ex with kids and that's a PAIN. I would rather avoid the whole ugly divorce and sharing the baby routine. But it's a very hard decision - live with a man i'm still in love with who only thinks of me as a 'roommate or friend' and never wants me as a 'personal relationship' (his words) or go thru a divorce, breakup, custody etc. Plus it doesn't help he's my business partner. 

As far as my looks are concerned, I think i'm an acquired taste - so to speak. I'll never be a barbie doll, i'm too tall and too big boned. I am overweight, but don't have strange appendages, open sores or anything like that. I got a HUGE scar from the C-section (vertical and 64 staples for a 4 lb baby- go figure) so that's on the 'ugly front'. And my stomach got all stretched out from having a 14lb child before that. When I lost weight, the skin sagged (blech!) When we were dating, I looked just like I look now. I don't like me, but at the time he said he did. I've been called beautiful, but that's with clothes on 

Posted my pic as an avatar... photoshop does wonders for a girl!


----------



## snix11

well hell. I'm an idiot. But ya'll were figuring that out already, right? 

Figured it couldn't hurt to take Mark's advice... So I went out, bought hubby a wonderful dinner, cooked it for him (and i don't cook!) even made him pecan/praline/apple pie and everything. He seemed a little distant, but liked the dinner. So I got myself all worked up to ask him if he'd like to have sex tomorrow night. 

But the kids were in the room. So I waited. and waited. and.... waited. He knew I wanted to talk to him (that jedi thing again) but didn't know about what. I mentioned I would tell him when the kids WENT TO BED (hint hint) but before that, we end up getting into a discussion then frustrated almost argument about one of the kids and their schoolwork. I figured by that time i was screwed, no way he's gonna want to talk about sex now... sigh.

So I left the room, completly dejected. yet again. I guess looking on the bright side i spared myself yet another rejection. 

So I sit down to work at 11pm. He messaged me on the pc with a youtube video. I ask him if it was about work, he said no, it was just cute. 

I said something like "sigh"
he said "why the sigh"
me: i was hoping to be able to talk to you tonight.. make you a wonderful dinner and ask you if you would like to have sex tomorrow night. I had imagined your surprise, but had hoped i would put you in a good enough mood to think it might be a cool idea. I of course screwed all that up by talking about elise and pissing you off. Figures. ANyway, it was a stupid idea.

and left the room so he wouldn't see me cry. 

A little while later I hear the door slam and one of the kids told me he had gone for a walk. 

I go back upstairs as it's now safe without him there and see this on the screen:
i'm not sure what you mean by me being pissed off,, i wasen't, it still sounds like a good idea :-* (kiss face)

but he's gone for a 'mad walk'. the last time he went for a mad walk he came back and told me we were thru. 

do i dare go after him? what would i say?

Geez we are one fu*ked up couple... sigh...

guys? help me out here!


----------



## MarkTwain

I did tell you, you would just have to focus on sex, and forget the other arguments. But you chose to do both - Won't work. It sounds like he got frustrated that you did not reply to his positive text. He also probably resents the fact that you put words in his mouth - he was actually in a good mood and you miss-read him and thought the worse.

The other thing is that he sounds sexually frustrated right now, so it is the perfect time to pounce! - This could also explain why he slammed the door.

Never mind that you flunked this one. Say "sorry, I don't know what got into me" - when you next see him. And just start again - like nothing happened.

The fact that you were in a 10 year abusive relationship before proves my point - you have low self esteem. You are a people pleaser most of the time, except when you "throw your toys out of the cot" (as we say here in the UK).

As for your question about how bad sex can be good... Get him having sex with you as often as possible, and then we can look at improving it.

However, the syndrome is starting to become clearer now. As draconis would say, you have communication issues. Re-read your last post as if someone else wrote it, and you will see it verges on high farce!

All this is fixable, so there is nothing to worry about. 

You did not comment on my question: You said sex used to be hot and frequent with him. Cast your mind back. Can you pinpoint the turning point?


----------



## snix11

Turning point was him moving in. He said that he thought 'all relationships should be that way' that they should cool after the couple moved in together. I think I said something intelligent like "huh?" and "says who" and "is that what you really WANT?" 

He also has hinted that there were other problems with moving in, but has never elaborated on them in two years other than to say he thought we 'rushed into things'. He was the one that insisted we move in together, against my better judgment and with my objections that we might want to take it more slowly, so I don't understand that.

After I wrote that stuff, I went in to talk to him, and we were up till 3am... uggggh (esp with me with a bad cold this week!) it was back and forth - mostly if I say 'i'd really like to understand X and try to make things better' he immediatly says "I get it. It's all my fault, i screwed everything up' he's SOOO down on himself! I didn't say he screwed anything up! I just said that I noticed that last night when I tried to be playful, he ignored me. I asked what I could do or change in myself to get him to want to be playful with me again. He takes that as me saying he is awful, horrible and messes everything up. 

We both have low esteem issues!

It ended with us being 'ok' and going to bed together. (at the same time) he said 'good night honey', rolled over and read his book like usual. So I guess no ground was lost. Not sure what is going to happen tonight with the sex issue. I'm not really used to being the initiator and he's always told me he'd rather take the lead. 

I may not even want to push the issue as he hurt his knee last night going for a walk. He dislocated it a few weeks ago and won't wear the brace, so it gets torqued quite a bit. 

He also mentioned last night that he felt he was 'falling apart' and 'getting old' that he was losing his hair, his knee wasn't healing fast enough, etc. I suggested that he come work out with me and do some light stuff in the pool to help his knee heal. He said he would think about it.


----------



## MarkTwain

Never mind his knee. Work on him tonight. Even if he can't get on top of you, you can still be intimate in some way. You need to start initiating. If after you get to bed, he says he isn't up to sex tonight, say "that's ok, but I want hugs NOW" - but don't exchange too many *words *- grab hold of him. It's not rape if he doesn't scream 

On the subject of words... they seem to be your collective downfall. He hears the worst in your sentences, and you do the same to him. Make a point of listening clearly to what he says, and ask for clarification - don't assume. If he jumps to wrong conclusions when you talk, lovingly put him right.

You obviously sabotaged your last attempt to be sweet yesterday, so you need to take notes, and learn from your experiments.

Unfortunately you need to treat him like men have to learn to treat women. Be warm with him all day, so that when it comes to bedtime, the atmosphere is good. I told you before no nagging. If you want to get sex out of him, you need to put everything else in the background.

One good thing about him in this regard is that he seems to respond to demands. Good! Demand. Don't nag. If you don't get sex out of him one night, ask him the next. But by *asking*, I mean *initiate*. Don't use words. Cuddle him in bed. Make him hug you back. There is no point sharing a bed just to sleep. I actually sleep better on my own. I share a bed because I am the friendly type. In fact at one time my wife and I had separate beds. I used to start off every evening in her bed, we'd have sex, and then I would slope of to my own bed to get sleep. In the end I realized this was not good for the marriage.


----------



## Chopblock

---I used to start off every evening in her bed, we'd have sex, and then I would slope of to my own bed to get sleep. In the end I realized this was not good for the marriage.---

I don't know... I think some couples would LOVE that! Have the sex and intimacy, but then get some good shut eye. I'd welcome separate beds if I was guaranteed sex before sleep every night.

I agree with the point about not nagging him. You guys already have enough to be negative about. I know what its like to only hear/assume the worst in someone's voice. Its frustrating for both parties, and right as it may be sometimes, the one time you are wrong will hurt you both a LOT!

I also agree with using actions instead of words. Seems you guys just don't talk well anyway.


----------



## husbandinthemking

Chopblock said:


> I used to start off every evening in her bed, we'd have sex, and then I would slope of to my own bed to get sleep. In the end I realized this was not good for the marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> This is so wrong.
> 
> After sex is what they call "reflection" time. It allows for cuddling and closeness that a relationship needs to thrive.
> 
> It is always best to share that time together after sex. If you don't, it takes away the much needed time to solidify the relatioship.
Click to expand...


----------



## snix11

ok... will be the silent strong type tonight :bounce:

and honestly - slippery friction aside, just a close, intimate, loving cuddle would be heavenly


----------



## MarkTwain

snix11-

When I read the link below about 5 years ago, I suddenly realized where I was going wrong with my wife. She is visual, I am audio-tactile. So I had to learn to speak her language.

"Ask Dr. Tracy" Love Library


----------



## dcrim

"It's not rape if he doesn't scream" - LOL, MT. Snix, go for it, girl! Take what you want! Do not ask, just take it. And the idea that all relationships cool (especially after moning in together)? Total BS. It kind of sounds like he's found a nice safe harbor and doesn't want to up anchor.


----------



## MarkTwain

dcrim said:


> "It's not rape if he doesn't scream" - LOL, MT.


I'm glad you like my humor, I sometimes hold back for fear of causing offense. Off topic, but some of the funniest stuff I have heard is so non PC, it makes even _me _cringe


----------



## MarkTwain

dcrim said:


> And the idea that all relationships cool (especially after moning in together)? Total BS.


We are absolutely in tune brother!

The only reason things cool is that each partner forgets to put a "sixpence in the meter" - the next thing you know your out of town gas!

There is a saying "familiarity breeds contempt", but it needn't be that way. Familiarity can be the basis for mind-blowing sex - when each partner knows intimately what will "do it" for the other.


----------



## Chopblock

---After sex is what they call "reflection" time. It allows for cuddling and closeness that a relationship needs to thrive.---

Well fine, then retire to separate beds after that... whatever, the point is now you can have guaranteed sex AND get a good nights sleep.

---The only reason things cool is that each partner forgets to put a "sixpence in the meter" - the next thing you know your out of town gas!----

That or one partner is tired of "feeding the meter" while the other one "doesn't have any change".

I agree also that after 10 years in an abusive relationship, and lord knows what else, this person is not going to feel she is in a position to demand anything. Odds are her gentle spirit has been crushed, and (this is all based on what SHE said about not being able to meet people or to get out) she has grown accustomed to accepting what someone else decrees, lest she find herself alone.

I say this because its evident in your writing, and in the fact that you are the one who wants to stay. You use excuses like your working at home, your location, and the logistics of divorcing with a kid. 

While those things have some merit, there is no barrier, anywhere, ever, that can't be overcome by someone who wants success badly enough.


----------



## MarkTwain

Chopblock said:


> While those things have some merit, there is no barrier, anywhere, ever, that can't be overcome by someone who wants success badly enough.



:iagree:​


----------



## snix11

Well, what a weekend. 

Still no sex, sigh. He did a really rude thing on Friday Night, which made it almost too hard to even try to initiate. Which didn't make a damn bit of difference because he made sure to stay up till 3am - just hanging out with the kids. I finally got too tired and went to bed. I had mentioned several times that I wanted to go to bed with him (hint hint) and he would say, sure honey. Then not do it.

Saturday started with an argument (by him) I stayed quiet and neutral and didn't 'argue back'. He did stop in the middle of his tirade and say "let me start again" and give me a hug and say he was sorry. Progress there. 

We spent Saturday looking at properties and Saturday evening he went to bed at 8pm. So no time there.

Sunday he basically ignored me and was back to being simply 'nice'. I was able to talk to him that night, and asked him what it would take for him to be in love with me again. He said "don't get anrgy, don't make assumptions and just be nice".

Well, if that's all it takes for him to be 'in love' doesn't that mean he would be in love with the postman, baglady, etc? I think he's specifically holding me at arms length to keep me from being close to him. He wants me as a friend only and treats me like an ex he feels 'sorry' for. 

One of the things we were tasked with doing by the marriage counselor was to plan UA (undivided Attention) time with each other for a minimum of 15 hours per week. 

So in choosing we both came up with things we would like to do together. I came up with: sex, snuggling, dancing, and games - with prompting he came up with movies, pool and kareoke. It was his idea to 'roll the dice and let fate decide' what we did this week. 
ok, that was cute.

So he starts rolling and the first number is a 4! That means sex! woo hoo! he asked what number 4 was, I said sex, and he said 'oh' in a very dissapointed way. ah geez. Then he rolls again, it's another 4! (my week is looking better already) he quickly rolls again saying that one didn't land right. oh please. So we get thru the 'list' and he makes sure that sex doesn't come up again.

I asked him if he would rather take sex off the list as he was acting like he didn't like it or want it. He looked guilty and said 'oh no, it just didn't come up as a 4 again!' uh huh. It took him 12 rolls over six days to come up with things that weren't sex. Surely he doesn't think i'm that stupid?

Anyway, tonight was 'sex' night and he's already making excuses. 

I'm getting rather sick of him treating me like i have cooties and them trying to reassure me 'nothing is wrong'. I can TELL when he's not interested in me.


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## MarkTwain

Basically, if he won't do sex tonight, I would call it a day! But stick to your guns. Just keep up the initiation, and make sure you get sex. Once you get it once, make sure to get it again 2 days later. When he sees that your demands are not going to go away, he may actually relax. He is testing you. Also, looking at your history, one of you, will try to provoke a fight so that sex becomes an impossibility. 

So remember, no arguments no nagging. No sabotaging things before they even get started. So I am suggesting you back down on everything else for now, and just focus on getting the sex back. You need to be firm in that one area. But once your actually in bed, be nice obviously. You used to give him a bj... why can't that be foreplay? A lot of couples do that because it makes lube unnecessary. DO NOT make him cum by BJs until he has earned that privilege.


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## snix11

Last night he basically said he didn't want to have sex, even tho it was on the "schedule". He said "oh honey, i'm so sorry. I know how much it means to YOU" How much it means to ME? Like it means NOTHING to him? 

Oh to hell with this. I'm not going to beg for sex. Even trying to do anything positive with him seems stupid any more. 

And yes, he's been trying to start fights all day today. I haven't been taking the bait, but it's getting harder. He says he feels "badgered" by me - but not about sex. I said i was sorry and asked him about what (I had said good morning and if our daughters teacher had contacted him yet) but he wouldn't answer me. The silent treatment is one of his favorites. I've put up with WEEKS of him fuming and not talking to me if we are alone, but overly sweet and playful and cuddly with the kids in front of me. He also will talk to me if anyone else is in the room (like nothing is wrong) but then goes back to treating me like dirt when we are alone. 

Now he's stomped off in the middle of the work day leaving me in the office alone for the oh so important task of buying a new doorknob. 

Grrrrrrr.


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## snix11

I think it's got to be time to talk to him about moving out.

Every time we start getting better - he goes out of his way to remind himself how much he doesn't want me or like me! If we get along that day or evening, the next day he reads over negative documents he wrote regarding how much we were arguing (a year ago!) and every bad thing I've ever said and how bad a person I am. Most of these are a eight months to a year old while we were at our worst. Then he cools off towards me the rest of the day instead of being close to me like he was before he read that stuff. Why would he want to do that?

I think he's deliberately sabotaging any efforts I'm working so hard on by reminding himself how much he doesn't like me. I'd fight the world for him, but how can I battle his will to not like me?

This seems really hopeless. :banghead:


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## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> I think it's got to be time to talk to him about moving out.


Once you make up your mind about this, you can issue an ultimatum if you want - because you will have nothing to loose. He will either do a deal with you, or call your bluff. Until you reach that point it's going to stay as it is. Good luck.


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## snix11

With him it can't be a bluff. He will go. He told me six months ago he wanted to go, and he's been making DAMN sure he doesn't fall back in love with me so he might just want to stay. 

It wouldn't matter what ultimatum I issued, he just wants to leave. He's like a little kid that's been pouting because he couldn't have the ice cream he wanted. Today, looking for some business paperwork I came across a 'secret' folder of about 8GB of redhead porn. Why Hide it? I don't give a hoot what he watches. But it shows me he's still not being honest with me. 

He's been 'trying' and cordial all week. but you can see it's a pain for him. he has to remind himself to hug me. twice today when he left he just 'left'. he never ever used to do that when he liked me.

I'm just trying to figure out if it's worth it to stay for the kids. That's a toughie. His kids adore me now, even the teenager. my kids love having a dad around and he's great with the baby. 

surely there is a compromise here somewhere?


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## Chopblock

Snix11... you need some tough love. This is RIDICULOUS!

You had a well constructed plan, and you allowed him to break it with no consequence. Do you think he is going to suddenly switch gears?

I think he has life pretty well figured out. He can do pretty much what he wants, with no significant penalties, and you'll just keep trying. He has even told you he wants out, and you are begging to keep him around... What a sweet deal for him!

---surely there is a compromise here somewhere?---

The only way you are REALLY going to get anything you want is from someone else. You are trying to force this man to do something he obviously doesn't want to do. Its not like this is an image thing, or a disability thing... he has no reason to reject you like this.

Have you tried to make new friends and expand YOUR circle? I feel so bad seeing you want something from someone who just doesn't want to give you what you deserve. It makes me feel like I'm back in elementary school where I'd have a huge crush on a girl and she wouldn't like me back, and I'd just have to deal.

Please, dump this guy. The kids would do better in a split home with happy parents than in a united home with tense parents. Do you want the girls to grow up thinking that its normal for a man to take and take but never give, and that they should just keep trying? Do you want your sons to learn to treat women well only when its convenient?


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## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> .
> 
> surely there is a compromise here somewhere?


Well, he did say, you could get some else where. It's one of his few redeeming features. Most men in this situation expect their wives to behave like nuns. I think you should consider taking him up on it. But you had better touch base with him first.

When he's in a good mood, say honey, I've been thinking about what you said... and see if he is still up for it. Be real nice when you say it, and make sure if you intend to do it, it's not to get back at him, it's merely to have fun.

If he is, then you should never try to get him to have sex with you again. But go out and find someone. Get on with it before you get any older.


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## snix11

Five days later...

Been an interesting week. We planned things again, and he actually stuck to some of them! what a surprise. 

Mon - planned sex. didn't happen. but I had a sore throat and he was being 'kind'. 

Tues - out to a piano bar. six hours went by awfully fast. He sat on the other side of the table, but held my hand occasionally. 

Wed - snuggle time. 20 minutes. was 'nice'

Thurs - went out to dinner and watched a movie at home. was... well, nice. nothing special.

Friday - I was feeling rather sick - have strep throat this week, yuck! we had planned to go out so we went to Dave and Busters. Too much money spent, but shuffleboard was fun. 

Saturday - Took the kids to a carnival and corn maize. was fun and family like.

Sunday - went to six flags with hubby. He actually played footsie with me in line a few times. Flirting?! After five hours wandering around the park, we finally left. I held his hand, he said "it's about time" I mentioned that street does run both ways and he just "hrumphed". men. go figure.

So we spent way too much money and he was nice most of the time, almost flirted with me a few times. 

It was an easier week, but sometimes I feel like i'm pulling teeth just to get the minimum amount of attention. 

never the less, seems like a good week all in all.


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## snix11

Then again....

Now this week he's back to barking at me, starting fights and trying to tell me i'm starting them (i'm not buying into it) and storming off when I don't take the bait and leaving me with the kids, dogs, house and business to deal with by myself while he goes and listens to audio books in the car somewhere for hours.

To make matters worse, he's been chatting with a girl he knows and keeps turning off the screen when i walk by. Um, honey, I'm not that stupid, k?

The chatting isn't even that big of a deal, just her flirting with him and him enjoying it. Nothing I would take offense at. It's his hiding it from me that bothers and worries me.

He's also back on the porn trail - of course trying to tell me he's not. 

Frankly the most frustrating thing in all this is his shutting me out. 

I'm a good person, a great mom, a damn good business head, a sexy beast in bed, willing to please and very VERY forgiving of just about anything. However, I do have my limits.

I find myself getting angry and cranky and having to count to 10 more and more often. I feel like my whole life is passing me by while I wait for this guy to decide if he wants me or not. And i'm getting a little sick of waiting!

Sometimes I feel like I should just be more positive and patient. Be nice, be sweet, never nag, never complain, never argue. Only say nice things. I've been trying that for SIX FRICKIN MONTHS. With a minimum amount of success. Other than his not bringing up that he's leaving every week, and us not really at each others throats every other day, I wouldn't say it's been a very positive change. I've been very nice. very sweet. very kind. But that's really not.. um... "me". I DO complain sometimes, or at least feel like i want to, especially when I don't get enough affection, love or sexual fulfillment. How on earth do I stick up for my 'rights' in this case? Do i have any rights?

I want sex, love, romance, affection, fun and closeness. I'm willing to work for it, and give at least as good as I get! we spent over 500.00 last week doing all these 'dates' and we got 'a little' closer. By the end of the week I got a mild footsie flirt. Doesn't seem fair! I found myself thinking how far 500 would go with an escort service 

Then again, maybe I'm just too demanding. 

Which is worse? The predicament or my insecurity? lol. :scratchhead:

Anyway, it's 3am and I'm still working because that *insert you know what word here* decided to take off again tonight when I wouldn't fight with him and now he's snoring peacefully while I do the reports he was supposed to do three weeks ago. So i'm doing my job AND his. And not getting any lovin for it!

Guys, how do you stand it? If he ever finally dumps me, I'm going for one of those guys that the ex-wives always complain about that "always" wanted sex. You know, He wants it ALL the time. heh. I'll make it my sworn duty to wear him out :bounce:

Once upon a time my husband nicknamed me WIW for wantonly insatiable wench. He at the time was WIW also - for Wantonly insatiable warrior. The warrior may have sheathed his sword, but I fully intend to live up to my titular duties


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## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> ! After five hours wandering around the park, we finally left. I held his hand, he said "it's about time" I mentioned that street does run both ways and he just "hrumphed". men. go figure.


I know he's a son of a b***, but why do you always shoot him down, when you could have built something sexy out of the above?

I have noticed at least twice that there is a strange dynamic you two have. Just when sex and affection is on the table, one of you or both of you do something to sabotage it.

My verdict: Could do better! (Personally, from the way you tell it, I would be gone, I were in your... ahem, shoes)

Keep up making the sex appointments, and try to see where you are sabotaging it. It might also be instructive to chart the downfall of your sex life. Pinpoint the exact time it fell of a cliff. What was going on. What were the pressures, how were YOU treating him at the time.?



snix11 said:


> If he ever finally dumps me, I'm going for one of those guys that the ex-wives always complain about that "always" wanted sex. You know, He wants it ALL the time. heh.


Considering that he is flirting with other women, AND keeping you on short rations, your sentence should start with "If I ever dump_ him_"

If your self esteem where higher, he would probably respect you more. He is just reflecting your own view that you're worthless. A good husband would not be able to reflect your worthlessness in that way, he would tell you to "get a life" instead, and try and bolster you. You are going to have to bolster yourself, but at least you've got us on this forum to love you up.


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## bzyshopinbee

Im not sure what your history with you SO is, but SOMETHING is obviously going on if he's treating you this way. Silent treatments?? Thats so immature! No sex? Why? Your his partner, your the one that he's suppost to LOVE. Why on earth is he making every excuse under the sun NOT to make love to you? Yes, there is definitely something going on. Red flags flying all over the place.

I agree with you that he is deliberately sabotaging any efforts to make your marriage work...and if he's not working with you, but against you...its a lossing battle that you'll never win.

Also, you mentioned house hunting? That would be the LAST thing I would be doing with someone that is not willing to put 100% effort into the marriage as you are.

Good luck!


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## snix11

Bee - The house hunting was his idea. I thought it was really strange that he would tell me he wanted to leave and then a few months later would want to go house hunting with me without ever telling me he had changed his mind. Unfortunately, we are not at a point where we can talk about that without him shutting down.

Mark -


> I know he's a son of a b***, but why do you always shoot him down, when you could have built something sexy out of the above?
> 
> I have noticed at least twice that there is a strange dynamic you two have. Just when sex and affection is on the table, one of you or both of you do something to sabotage it.


huh. I didn't realize i did that. I had waited allllllllll day for him to hold my hand, kiss me, touch me or do anything. He's told me several times that HE wants to be the one to be the aggressor physically and sexually. He tells me he feels uncomfortable when I initiate. So I was trying to let him initiate rather than 'throwing myself at him' and making him feel obligated to respond.

When we were dating and he was feeling normal and sexy, he always initiated and was all over me. Yeah, I loved it. I could occasionally initiate, but you could tell he liked the "hunt". So I've tried to back off and let him be the initiator. But he's not initiating. I think he still wants to be, but something is keeping him from it. I just don't know what.

When I finally got fed up and held his hand on the way out the park, I fully expected him to reject me like he usually does. He didn't, which surprised me. He didn't drop my hand or make a face. I smiled at him and kept holding his hand as we walked along. After about 15 seconds he said "it's about time" in a friendly way. I smiled back at him too. I didn't quite know what to say, but I wanted to let him know that it was ok for him to hold my hand sometimes too. So I just said "you know, that street does run both ways" in my most friendly and joking tone. Not hostile or anything. 

He hrumphed but kept holding my hand. How did I sabotoge it? what did i do wrong? what should i have done instead? I certianly didn't mean to make him feel 'shot down' and he didn't act like i did.


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## MarkTwain

snix11-

I am wondering at this point what your PhD is in?


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## MarkTwain

No, really...


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## snix11

Do I seem that stupid? Lol 

Oceanography.


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## MarkTwain

snix11-

Your husband is cheating on you in thought, word, and possibly deed. No wonder he offered you an open relationship. He's already having one - so at least he's fair.

Your predicament is typical of the genre. You meet some hot guy, he moves you 3000 miles from your social network, and then abuses you to the point of tragedy. All the time you are trying to get him to have sex with you.

He is blatantly cybering other chicks over the internet, yet you think so little of yourself that you still wonder ho you can "fix it up". The cybering would not be so bad if you did not mind and he was warm, affectionate and sexual with you, but he twists his words to suit his thinly veiled contempt of you.

What all this shows is that the value you place on yourself as a person and a wife is zero. Why?


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## snix11

Whoa. what did i miss? Last post you were telling me not to shoot him down now you are telling me i'm an idiot for staying. 

What gives?



> Your predicament is typical of the genre. You meet some hot guy, he moves you 3000 miles from your social network, and then abuses you to the point of tragedy. All the time you are trying to get him to have sex with you.


the genre? Pardon me?
he didn't move me anywhere. He moved in with me. 
I didn't have a social network. I don't see he abused me, although he swears I manipulated, controlled and abused HIM.
We had sex like lemmings for the first six months we were together. 

I don't see how your above reference fits my case. Esplain


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## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> loveandmarriage - Um... where does one cultivate girlfriends? I work from home, I don't know anybody, I don't have any living family and the only friends i had from college live on the other side of the US. Not sure what kind of group/?? I can join or meet people.
> 
> I've been living in San Antonio now for 8 years. I've always worked from home, rarely go out (always working or caring for kids) and don't know anybody except "his" friends and i've only met them a few times.
> 
> Suggestions?


I read a lot of threads here, and I may have mixed you up with someone else, but the above indicates, you live far from your friends. 3000 miles?



MarkTwain said:


> Basically, if he won't do sex tonight, I would call it a day! But stick to your guns. Just keep up the initiation, and make sure you get sex. Once you get it once, make sure to get it again 2 days later. When he sees that your demands are not going to go away, he may actually relax. He is testing you. Also, looking at your history, one of you, will try to provoke a fight so that sex becomes an impossibility.
> 
> So remember, no arguments no nagging. No sabotaging things before they even get started. So I am suggesting you back down on everything else for now, and just focus on getting the sex back. You need to be firm in that one area. But once your actually in bed, be nice obviously. You used to give him a bj... why can't that be foreplay? A lot of couples do that because it makes lube unnecessary. DO NOT make him cum by BJs until he has earned that privilege.


As you can see from the above, I have been consistent all along. I think you are married to a jerk but I have tried to rack my brains for strategies to get any normal man into bed. Personally, I think only an ultimatum will do it. And if he called your bluff, what would you loose?





snix11 said:


> I don't see he abused me, although he swears I manipulated, controlled and abused HIM.
> .
> .
> .
> 
> I don't see how your above reference fits my case. Esplain


If you can't see that refusing you sex, saying it's him, not you, and then having cyber sex with a redhead is not abuse, then you need to go back to university.


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## snix11

> I read a lot of threads here, and I may have mixed you up with someone else, but the above indicates, you live far from your friends. 3000 miles?


Si. I did indeed. However, these are friends I lost touch with over 20 years ago. It's not like he moved me anywhere. He's always encouraged me to have and make friends. 

Again - This thread was started to GET THE TRUTH OUT OF HIM.

Not to change him, not to make up my mind to leave, just to get the truth out of him. 

He just does things that defy rational explanation.

1. Why doesn't he want me sexually any more?
He says he doesn't know, that he just doesn't feel sexual at all (it's not you) or that he's just tired.
Gut instincts tell me that 
1. He's lost interest in me due to something he discovered along the way he found abhorrent in me. If this is the case I want to know. Either it's something I can fix and will, or it's something for me to learn from in my next relationship.
2. He really does want me and love me but he's angry, scared, or otherwise emotionally F'd up in some way.
If this is the case, tell me and lets work it out. I've already helped him with alot of his past problems. I am confident I can help him in a loving positive way again.
3. Other. In which case I want to know cause the curiosity along is driving me MAD! :banghead:

I've tried asking him. He swears that he loves me but is not in love with me and he cares about me but no longer wants to have a personal relationship with me.

I just don't get that.


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## MarkTwain

Well to some extent as far as it goes, he is telling you the truth. He does not want a sexual relationship with you any more. I doubt it is due to any gaping fault you may have.

But you:

a)Want it to not be true - you want to make some change to yourself so that he will desire you again.

b)Want to know why - As a very wise man once told me, "The why will hang you up every time"

What you need to be asking yourself is, do you want to continue an exclusive relationship with a man that does not desire you, and is openly flirting with others?

Have you got any idea what a few more years of this will do to you? I have, I have solid evidence. It is not good.

Also, you have NEVER NEVER, answered my question about his suggestion that you get some elsewhere. In my opinion, this puts you in a far better position than many other women in your situation. You could meet a toy boy - find you really like him, and then either keep your hubby on as a friend and a business partner or, or or - jump ship! - And at a pace of your choosing. 

People in sexless relationships always want the impossible. They want everything else to be equal, but for the sex to skyrocket. This would break all the known laws of the Universe (and a few unknown ones as well). It is possible to manipulate the situation slightly, but major changes can only come from the person themselves. Maybe he _will _have an epiphany one day... but not to order.


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## snix11

Well hmm. 

While finding someone to have a wonderful sexual relationship sounds great on the surface, especially with my husbands 'consent' I see some serious problems with it.

1. My guilt. I feel that I should only have sex with him. It's a social moral issue and one I could get over, but it just feels 'weird' to me.

2. The Kids. How on earth do we tell the kids that Mom's going on a date tonight because dad doesn't find her sexy? Another awkward weird situation. As a girl who was raised on fairy tales, I don't remember the prince and princess deciding to swing after they rode off into the sunset.

3. His ulterior motives. What if (and I think this is a distinct possibility) that he simply is waiting (and not too patiently himself) for me to 'jump ship' so that he can too. 

It's one thing for him to tell him something is "wrong" with himself and it's not "me" but he doesn't want sex with ANYBODY. It's entirely another for me to find out that after my first date, he's now finally having sex daily with some redhead he's got waiting in the wings.

We went out for his 'going away' party on Friday and he tipped our waitress 50.00 on an 80.00 tab. later he explained that it was acceptable because she was a redhead. Grrrrr.

I don't think I could keep him around at all should he come home all dancing and singing and happy because he finally got laid by a redhead whom he finds desirable. 

Not so much because he found someone to be happy with but because it would mean that he has LIED to me all this time about not being horny for anyone. If he's gonna do it, he'd damn well better be honest about it NOW. ie - honey, I find you gross, disgusting, unsexy, whatever. I still love you and care for you but you gross me out (or whatever) and I want to go out and have sex but I want you to go first so that I don't feel guilty about cheating on you.

I wouldn't like it, but I could handle it.

So, in part to save the business and family side of our relationship, and partly to keep myself from going ballistic, I have been hesitant to go forward with his 'suggestion'.


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## MarkTwain

Well he's definitely lying about not wanting sex with anybody. He may we be wanting to push you to make the first move. You should perhaps ask him how he wants the separation to go. Perhaps he simply hasn't got the guts to split from you, or perhaps he feels he will get a worse settlement in a divorce. 

Why not play a little game with him. You could email him - that way you get a record of everything. Make sure you save a copy of the emails away from the house.

Ask him if he was serious about you having a lover - say you don't really want that, but if that's what he wants. Etc. Make it look like you are coming round to his point of view - but tease all his views out of him and get it in writing.

One thing is for sure, he wants you to feel bad. He tipped that waitress to make you feel bad. Why I don't know, but you need to get smart, and realise he is a hostile witness.


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## snix11

He was waaaay too drunk the other night to be manipulative enough to tip the waitress to hurt me. 

What it showed me was not that he wanted to hurt me, but that he really does think that way. Redheads are all goddesses and should be treated that way. So why on earth get with a brunette?


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## snix11

And just in case you think he's always been an insensitive Arse, here's something he wrote from just a year ago. It made me cry reading it, because it showed me just how far we've fallen.
------

This is to go along with my comment to you. ( apparently I can’t shut-up and leave it alone.)

I apologized for making you feel like I did not want you, that was NEVER my intent, you have shown me how important it is that we keep our promises to the kids and that was what I was trying to do. 

One way that we cure our fears and solve our problems is to face them, I generally have a problem being intimate with kids in the room, the other night my entire focus was on you and not on the kids in the room, and it showed me that I don’t need to let my prudish ways interfere with how I show my affections to you. I am confident that even though E- was in the room we could have still had a wonderful time. 

Should this type of cusp ever arise again, before thinking that my love is lost to you, consider first that I may be an idiot who needs reminding.

My feelings for you have not changed, I am truly sorry for making you think that they have, I will, in the future, should we happen upon a similar problem, do my utmost to assure you that I love, want, and need you beside me for as long as you want to be there day and night, for eons or for hours.

Thank you for being straight and honest with me, and I am sorry if my comments afterwards upset you more instead of what I had hoped to do, witch was to relieve you of your fears of me not wanting you.

I leave you with the hopes that you will continue to share a bed with me despite my snoring and thrashing about in my sleep.

I leave you with all my love, all my heart, and my soul for you to do with as you will.
------
THIS is the man I fell in love with. Where has he gone?


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## MarkTwain

Even that email is an excuse not backed up by action. 

If you do put anything in writing to him, remember, it's a two-way street. Other people may read it, layers etc.

The red-head thing shows he is either trying to destroy your self esteem, or he is passive/aggressively trying to get you to leave him.

After a few more years of this, you will not be able to bring yourself to date anyone else as he will have convinced you that you are undesirable. That's what happened to everyone else who went through this for any length of time. What's really sad though is that in the final analysis, you are doing it to yourself.


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## Chopblock

A little story that might be relevant here...

I have a hot hot HOT friend whose boyfriend of several years just stopped having sex with her. He swore he didn't want to break up with her, and that they would get married, he was just anxious about marriage because both his parents and all his siblings marriages were just going so poorly. He knew he wouldn't mistreat my friend, but he still was nervous about it.

My hot hot friend put up with about a year and a half of no sex. She wrote him letters, she reassured him, she microanalyzed every little interaction. She cited little things he did or said as proof that they were perfect for each other. She had these deep profound descriptions for his motivation for the tiniest thing.

So imagine how stunned I was when this guy dumped my hot hot friend.

My hot hot friend (did I mention she is HOT) is now in a relationship with another guy, and there is LOTS of sex. Not only that, she said that in hindsight, she can see so many things that should have been warnings.

You keep asking how to get the truth out of him, but I think you are looking for something that doesn't exist or doesn't matter. He has told you flat out several times what he wants and doesn't want, and you pick and choose what to accept.

You have to choose whether to take action, or just keep talking.


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## Chopblock

Oh and one little addition here:

I'm sure you're going to reply (or at least think) that everyone here is "ignoring" the real issue, and focusing on things that don't matter. I'm sure you wish that you hadn't revealed some things because you think it tainted everyone's opinion.

There is a reason that people ARE focusing on THOSE details... and that is because they are IMPORTANT!

You may be tempted to say we aren't answering the question. I think many here will agree that we ARE answering... the answer just isn't what you wanted to hear.

I thought that might be relevant somehow.


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## MarkTwain

Chopblock said:


> You keep asking how to get the truth out of him, but I think you are looking for something that doesn't exist or doesn't matter. He has told you flat out several times what he wants and doesn't want, and you pick and choose what to accept.


Why can't I write like that?


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## snix11

I hear you all, truely I do. There are several times I wake up in the morning knowing this is IT, I QUIT. 

But then, like yesterday, he'll do something so sweet and unexpected it makes me wonder. 

After feeling like I'd finally had enough, I decided to tell him it was over. Before I could, he came up to me that afternoon, pulled me out of my desk where i was working, gave me this huge kiss and held me like he meant it. He looked deep into my eyes and gave me another kiss, this one better than the first.

He then looked at me searchingly (what was he searching for??) and asked me if it made me feel uncomfortable. I said not yet with a smile. 

A few months ago, I had told him it was making me uncomfortable that he would kiss me and hug me all day then not want to do anything sexual other than just the kissing and hugging. I think that's what made him stop. (stupid, yes I KNOW) 

So now i'm floored, confused and have no idea what to do from here. I wish I could just TALK to him or that he would talk to me!!

sigh.


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## snix11

MARK - you B******. You didn't TELL me you had been practicing semen retention! :2gunsfiring_v1:

I've been reading about this for years and wanted to try it. I wonder if that's what's wrong with hubby? He did say several times that he felt 'awful' and 'drained' and he got worried about his postate several times after having sex. 

I just know that if I can get him to try this, it will WORK. :smthumbup:

Now, how on earth do I go about it? When does he stop? orally I can make him come (or not) whenever I want to, but inside me it often sneaks up on him quite quickly. He used to get angry at himself :scratchhead: when he came so soon. It never bothered me, i saw it as kind of a compliment that i was doing something so wow he came. 

Now... how do I introduce this to him where he won't think i'm nuts and just trying to 'blue ball' him to death?

I may be on to something here and you have been holding out on me! So teach me how to teach him. I have a book called the Tao of Health sex and longevity (great book btw) but how do I introduce the idea to him? 

Now i'm excited, I just KNOW this will work. Teach us!
:allhail:


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## MarkTwain

snix11- I have mentioned semen retention in many threads, but people think I'm mad! Why don't you just show him my website, especially: Semen retention, the early days. - The sexuality support group forum Which is my story of how I got into it. 



sinx11 said:


> After feeling like I'd finally had enough, I decided to tell him it was over. Before I could, he came up to me that afternoon, pulled me out of my desk where i was working, gave me this huge kiss and held me like he meant it. He looked deep into my eyes and gave me another kiss, this one better than the first.


If you look back at your past history, or indeed at many of the threads on this site, you will see that whenever one partner is about to leave the other over lack of sex, the other partner picks it up ans behaves differently. I have tried to point this out to people until I am blue in the face. You have more power than you think.

Your hubby kissing you might have been him trying to see if he is still attracted to you, or if he can get an erection with you - he might be having guilt issues.

I tried to move you both towards semen retention right at the start of your thread by telling you to make sure your hubby does not ejaculate on his own. Married men should not do this. Masturbation is fine as long as it dopes not go to completion, but they should save their ejaculations for their wives.

One way that might work, is if hubby likes to be dominated! My fantasy is that my wife won't allow me to come! Sometimes she plays along - the trouble is she knows the longer she make me go without cumming, the more sex I want, and there is only so much time in the day. However, she pushed me into going for 6 weeks recently - that was a mind blower. And we were having sex 7 times a week.

Another thought: Any sexual activity that does not lead to release counts as semen retention, because it causes a build up of semen and lust. So for instance, if you keep on with the kissing you were doing, but don't let him come solo or any other way for a month, he will be desperately horny.


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## Chopblock

---But then, like yesterday, he'll do something so sweet and unexpected it makes me wonder.---

Or, he'll do something very easy and confusing like this, knowing it will buy him more time and keep you in your place. Maybe, it has no forethought whatsoever, but you choose to interpret it as some great sign of his undying affection.

This goes back to me saying you are picking and choosing what you want to hear. WHY does this "profound gesture" take precedence over something bad.... like say, the way he HASN'T HAD SEX WITH YOU?

I've pondered the same thing about myself. Gf will do something incredibly nice, and I appreciate it. But there are also things she has done that were ice cold. You have to give due consideration to both.

Now if you are saying that the good outweighs the bad, then I hope that is a calculated and informed decision. If, however, you are choosing to merely IGNORE the bad, or allow one small good gesture to erase several large bad gestures.... well then honey I WISH you'd teach my gf to do the same. I'd love to be able to atone for 10 sins with a simple hug, kiss, and deep look.


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## snix11

lol Chop... I've often been told that women will forgive men just about anything. If we didn't, the species would have died out long ago. 

Now... as if things weren't strange enough between us... :scratchhead:

Last evening, a few hours after the hug and kiss, hubby announces he is going to take a shower. nothing too surprising about that. 

however, when he got out, he was wearing just his towel around the bedroom. Not strange you say? Well, when we first got together, we were almost always naked around each other in the bedroom after showers and such. Over the last year, it's gotten so bad, that tho we sleep naked with each other, we rarely see and never 'notice' the other naked. it's like it's forbidden by him or something. Strange to me, who was often skyclad in the Colorado mountains. He even dresses in the closet! Again, seemed really strange to me. 

So here he is, wandering around the bedroom like a normal person  he turns to me and says, "Remember when you shaved half your kitty and thought I didn't notice?" "yes" (uh, yeah, like it was SIX WEEKS with me with only the left side shaved!) "well, i've decided to reciprocate!" (uh beg pardon?) :scratchhead:

he then whips off his towel with a flourish and presents me with a beautifully shaved **** and two smooth balls. :yay: I think i said something like "wow". He then says "for which you may do with as you please". Reeeeeallly? :bounce: :whip:

So, the baby finally asleep, he puts in a movie like everynight, but comes to lay down next to me. What I found really unusual is that he didn't drink or smoke at all, which he usually does prior to having sex with me. 

He lays next to me for a while, just being cuddly but not doing anything else. I decide to get the show on the road, so to speak. 

Well, after thinking about what MarkTwain said earlier, I figured I would try this retention thing. Now usually sex only lasts a few minutes for us, 9 minutes being a LONG time before he comes. Generally no foreplay, just wham bam, come roll over, snore. :sleeping:

So I figure, what the heck. I then proceed to use my mouth, hands, mouth again, ride him, more mouth... well you get the idea. Always bringing him close, but not letting him come... Thiry minutes later he's groaning a bit and wondering what's gotten into me. I didn't actually mention the semen retention, but treated it more as a practical excersize. 

I had one orgasm with him using his hands, then later got my little egg and suggested he use it on me. He actually did! Woohoo! Guaranteed O for me. Well halfway thru the egg experience, he decides he wants to enter me from behind and ends up coming right before I do. Oh!! and he really kissed me. It's been so long since an open mouth kiss, I thought he had forgotten how. 

Yes, he got tired and went to bed directly after (a bit of cuddling first) which is pretty normal for a guy who doesn't retain semen. Never the less, I can rule out any kind of physical problem as he got hard almost immed after I touched him and he did his usual staying hard after coming for a bit. 

Never the less, a great time was had by all. Is this a lasting change? what happened? who knows. Why did he do this? If I ask him will he get upset? should I just "go with it" and see if it happens again? Now, when and how do I start mentioning the retention stuff? Not sure. What I do know is that whatever changed, it seems good to me. I just haven't the foggiest idea what brought it on.


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## MarkTwain

I would not cross question him at all. Pretend it was a normal night. As for the retention, you should say - there is something I want to try on you... I have heard it drives a man wild to be denied an ejaculation. Or if you want to go the dominatrix route - "I want to try an experiment on you..."

The best way to start - but you need the time - is to have sex 3 times in a day, and let him come only on the last occasion.

Do not tell him this, but I suspect he likes to be sexually dominated. Tell him you like the way his balls look, and that you want to see them again. Be a bit bossy, but choose your moments carefully.


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## snix11

Whew... tall order. I'll see what I can do. Last night, just for an experiment, I played with him just enough to get him hard, then went back to cuddling. You could tell he didn't really want sex and was wondering what the heck I was doing (he didn't ask) and when I went to cuddling he said he was tired and rolled over to read. This morning he seemed happy and cuddly like normal. We'll see.


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## MarkTwain

If you can keep that up, and not let him ejaculate on his own, he will get very horny. Every time a man gets an erection from stimulation, but does not cum, semen builds up, and the pressure creates a background of horniness.


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## snix11

Same last night, but I told him what I was doing. He seemed skeptical and acted like "not come? are you crazy?" I asked him how he had felt today (after getting hard but not coming) and he said "oh" like he hadn't thought about it. Then last night, again, got him hard, then just cuddled with him. He didn't ask for anything more, didn't try to do anything with me. He didn't seem "horny" per se, but was affectionate back to me (not sexually, but holding me and rubbing my arm) but after he fell asleep, he was all over me, moving to my side of the bed, cuddling, throwing his arm and leg over me etc. NOT sexual in any way, but more of a subconcious "where is she" kind of move. It was very nice. 

This morning, he was much more affectionate, but you could tell it was more subconscious rather than planned. I don't think he even realizes what is happening. 

He's about to go oversees on a business trip for two weeks in a few days (not sure exactly when, we are waiting for the tickets) Should I suggest he keep up the "training" while he's there, or let him come before he leaves and just pick up where we left off or what? I would hate to loose him in Greece with all those women he loves and being too horny!


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## MarkTwain

No, don't let him cum. Keep it going, he will no doubt be jacking off in the hotel. But if you could get him to see if he can not cum until he comes back - promise him a BJ when he comes back or something. I don't know, use your feminine whiles. But if he cums while he is away, it's no big deal.

As you will see in GuiltyGirl's latest thread it is vital to be nice and welcoming when he comes in the door after his business trip. The first 5-10 minutes are vital on homecoming.

By the way, a man who practices semen retention should do kegels 3 times a week. This not only makes up for the lack of contractions of the PC & BC muscles, it also produces a firmer erection. You can start with a little as 25 contractions twice a week.

The best way a man can learn them is by making his flaccid twitch up and down. The larger the movement, the more focused the contraction is on the correct muscle group. 

I do 100 contractions 3 times a week. Doing too many cases fatigue, and the erection will be worse. However, stopping for 6 days, causes it to come back with a vengeance! It's best to get a moderate routine going.


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## snix11

Will try again tonight... been a nice day, he's been more affectionate than ever, if not sexual towards me. I seem to be taking the lead, but he's not complaining this time. Shrug.. who knows?

Granted I like him to take the lead too, i'm NOT a Dominatrix at all, more of a sub, but darnit, somebody has to do something!


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## snix11

Well, I'm back to the I QUIT phase.

I really thought things were going well - 
10-23 - Getting along better across the board. Little things that used to make us fight aren't as big of a deal. Affection keeps me very happy with him, sex initiated by him (sexual interest and admiration) gets us into the I think i could love you's. Fighting/arguing is a mild negative, his ignoring me and flirting with other girls gets a huge negative. Tried again to be sexual. Paul turned to me and asked in a very derisive tone "why ARE you doing this?" like he was disgusted by it, didn't like it. certianly didn't appreciate it. I got so hurt and angry by it. he REJECTED ME. 

While i was doing this thing for him, he turned to me and said: "Why ARE you doing this?" in the most nasty derisive tone i've ever heard. I tried to laugh it off, saying "any complaints?" with a smile. He just said "whatever". So I tried honesty: "because it is supposed to make you wild for me and honestly your needing me and desiring me is really important to me." Again he answered, "whatever". 

I backed off and rolled over. He didn't try to talk or touch me or anything. The next day he is cold and distant to me. 

10-25 - He and I go to a party at his friends house. While we are there, his teenage son calls and offered to lie to me so that dad could (potentially) get his nut off with a hot redhead. H heard and called him "stupid" but didn't ever say anything else to me or to the teen. Didn't even try anything sexual with H, too depressed. I was so hurt and rejected by him. On the way home I drove and he noticed I was crying. He asked me why, I said I couldn't talk about it. 

That night, he just rolled over and ignored me. 

10-26 - H acting weird. Started a fight in the am. Acting guilty and weird. Will come up to me, hug me later and say he's sorry, but when I try to engage with him - talk or whatever - he just walks away and shuts the door in my face. This happened three times. it's like he's trying to show what a great guy he is, see i'm apologizing.. but i hate her and i'm not going to talk to her or be close to her. Later he called this "kissing ass" and says he hates himself when he does it.

10-27 - Fights all day today. I'm angry, depressed and Fed up. He's rejecting me sexually, emotionally and socially. I can't put up with this any more. Found out he's been spending time on the net on redhead "shrine" porn sites. He writes to them and calls the girls "perfect". He's also been doing net searches for "women looking to **** in San Antonio". Hasn't mentioned anything to me about it. Did ask me why I was angry today. I was too angry to talk to him about it. He hurt his knee and when I asked if he needed help, he said no. then asked his daughter to help him. (more rejection) He derisively said later - CHRIST, are you STILL jealous over that?? I said, I offered to help you, why didn't you let me. He answered he wanted to bond with his daughter and wanted help from someone he loved. uh, ooook. 

Later I started a talk with him, trying to figure out why he was rejecting me and treating me like dirt. He told me when he WAS nice to me, it was only because he didn't want to start a fight, and if he was affectionate it was because "I needed it" not that he wanted to. He doesn't love me, doesn't want to, will NOT open up to me (his words) etc. I asked him why he doesn't hold me at night. He said he 'allows' me to hold him because he thinks i "need" it but that he doesn't hold me back because he's angry that i've been a '*****' sometime that day or maybe sometime that week. 

I asked him why not talk to me about it so I can change my behavior (he wouldn't say what I was this '*****' about and I didn't remember any arguments) and he said he wouldn't tell me because it didn't matter because he was NOT going to forgive me and didn't see any reason to. 

SO. When we did have sex and he was affectionate to me he was only doing it to 'kiss my ass' and doesn't love me, doesn't want me and is angry at me for being a '*****' all the time and is angry at himself for 'kissing my ass' by ever being nice. I see.

Then he tells me the other reason he won't hold me back is because it's not 'safe' for him to do so. He won't open up to me when we are getting along because he's afraid that sometime in the future (may be months or years - his words) anything he does that is good or bad will come back to bite him. (huh??) he refused to explain that.

He says that when we are getting along he is the most scared because he just KNOWS something will go wrong. That's the time he says he has to 'remind' himself how really awful I am and goes and looks up women to go out with in town. SIGH...

I feel like i'm damned if i do and damned if i don't.

And any time over the last few weeks he's been kind, nice, affectionate or sexual he tells me he's been FAKING it. WHAT???

So here I am, stunned, hurt beyond measure, realizing I can't even trust him being nice to me. I go thru the day in a haze.

10-28 - He comes up to me and gives me this big hug in the afternoon and says he's 'sorry we fought'. i reply with 'you don't have to kiss my ass.' he says he's not, he's really sorry. So I say ok and hug him back. He's very nice the rest of the day to me. (WHAT?)

That night, I go to bed first. He comes to bed after I'm asleep and cuddles me. I mean full body holding ME. He NEVER DOES THIS. And all this after telling me that other stuff? WTF??

I put up with the snuggling, trying to figure it out, but find it impossible to really enjoy it. THen he puts his HAND IN MY CROTCH.. After he just got done telling me the night before that he didn't want me, didn't desire me, didn't like me, would never be romantic with me etc. WTF?? My gut feeling was "I don't trust you" I put his hand away gently and rolled over to hold him.

He then rolls over and ignores me till now - 3am when i'm up because I'm so damn confused.

What's WITH this guy???

Does he love me? Hate me? Just trying to manipulate me? Feeling guilty for telling me the truth? Feeling guilty for telling me lies to hurt me? WHAT?????? :scratchhead:

He also knows we have a marriage counselor meeting Thursday. He often is 'nice' to me in the few days preceding the session.

I have NO idea what to think. But I DON'T trust him. I want to be able to accept his love, affection and attention but he keeps telling me that when he does that he doesn't MEAN it, and feels he is just 'kissing my ass' and only does it to 'appease' me. Grrrrr. I don't need his stinkin' pity thanks.


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## MarkTwain

Show him the journal you just showed us here. And make him explain it. Do it in your counselling session. Raise the stakes and stop being a pushover. This man is very screwed up. If he won't come clean you should leave - he will destroy you.


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## snix11

I did show him. His only response - well one day looked good, the others were bad. (oh fer gawds sake) He was of course nice to me again the day of the marriage counselor. I asked him why he was being so nice to me now, he told me not to worry about it and that i didn't "need to know". Um, yes i do.

The MC talked to us, and H gave him a "i don't know" kind of update. Then he talked to me and I explained everything. He told me i needed to be prepared for a plan B. Ie, a separation. He said H has some kind of entitlement complex and that his head is really screwed on wrong. He said that it didn't matter how much i did right, that unless he gets on board it didn't matter. Then he suggested talking to H for five minutes. He ended up talking to H for 45 minutes. Hopefully something got done.

H's 'homework' this week from the MC was to think of things to be affectionate about (huh?)

Mine is just to be myself. shrug. ok.


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## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> He told me i needed to be prepared for a plan B. Ie, a separation. He said H has some kind of entitlement complex and that his head is really screwed on wrong. He said that it didn't matter how much i did right, that unless he gets on board it didn't matter.


You need to wake up to this, before it is too late. But it takes two to tango. You have had all the signs in front of your face, and you have not caught on yet.


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## Chopblock

I go away for a week and this is what I come back to? Truly disheartening.

In a previous post I asked you whether "the truth" you seek would make a difference. Now I want to know whether it is even WORTH all this abuse to discover the truth.

I predict that if you do discover "the truth" (whatever it happens to be today) then you will consider it to be so magnanimous that you will overlook all his previous behavior. You've already shown that you can be "bought off" with some unconventional hugs/cuddling and some pleasantries. If he makes an "effort", you'll be pacified.

Do you see how you are being forced to call your own judgment into question? I see you saying "I'm done with this" then changing your mind. I see you questioning trusting him, and then forgiving immediately.

If you keep this up, you will not know WHAT to think anymore.

If that isn't scary enough, I am afraid to imagine what your NEXT relationship will be like. Odds are, so long as your next guy is bad to you in a different way, you'll be so happy he isn't putting you through what your current man is, that you'd consider it trading up.

I don't know about an entitlement complex, but the guys head sure isn't screwed on right.

Oh and should we even get into the fact that his son is on board with his ideals? Sure I'll lie to your wife so you can go get with someone else. Great example. Its men like this that make decent men like me have to work EXTRA HARD to atone for their sins.

Don't get me started on your counselor either... "his homework is to think of things to be affectionate about". How much are you paying this clown? I'm in the wrong business clearly!

I want to believe it is not too late for you, but with every day that goes by, that belief becomes less and less plausible.


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## snix11

Yeah, chopblock me too. I realized a few days ago that I AM way too forgiving. At one time I found my kind heart to be an asset, but not against someone who just wants to use me for it. 

Tonight is Halloween and I'm home alone working on HIS project. Sigh.

I've been working on the business from 3am straight from last night (this morning?) 

As he left with the last kid and the baby tonight, he asked me if I was sure I didn't want to go. ARGHHH. He knows that this export will not wait, it was his procrastination that caused me to have to work tonight! But if I just let him fall on his ass, the business loses, and I don't have money to pay the mortgage next month. 

Damned if I do, damned if I don't. 

He's been cordial, kind, sweet and distant. Basically business as usual. If he gets a coke from the fridge, he asks me if I want one too. That sort of thing. When he leaves the house, I may or may not get a peck on the cheek. At night, he goes to bed first, reads and falls asleep on his side of the bed. Sometimes while he sleeps, he'll let his foot touch mine. Don't worry, i'm NOT excusing all that as "gee see he's wonderful" I'm just showing that it's not like he's throwing dishes around and screaming. 

When he left tonight, he asked if he 'should' take the baby in a way that told me it was an imposition. GEEZ. I said in my nicest voice that since I was going to be up working that it would be nice if he took him. He relented. 

As I was walking back into the house, he said that he had forgotten something. I said what. he said come here. He then held me by my upper arms and gave me a slightly warmer than usual closed mouth kiss. he said 'that'. I tried to be nice. didn't say anything, kissed him back. 

He left, I went back to work. 

So it's like that. 

I can live my life like this - no romance, no love, no sex, no being 'in love' no 'I love you's' no christmas presents or birthday presents (he forgets) no fighting, no arguing, no talking, no sharing, no cuddling - and have my kids around me all the time. Or boot his using abusive ass to the curb and lose my kids half time, give up my house and my business, pay him 1/2 of everything i've worked 15 years to make for myself and not see my own baby two weekends of the month and on thursdays. 

Either way I feel i'm screwed. well, not literally. How do I make the best of this??? I'm really not one to give up (as you can tell) I don't generally have a 'doom and gloom' attitude and I really am willing to forgive anybody just about anything (i know, it's a fault) but I just don't see how my life can get any better right now. 

In two years when the baby is 3, I may be willing to give him up two weekends a month and not feel like my heart is breaking. Till then, I just count off the days like a prison sentence.

One day, old and used up, I'll come blinking back into the light with nothing but the clothes on my back to my name and my 'freedom'. whoopee. 

Oh and happy freaking halloween.


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## snix11

MarkTwain said:


> You need to wake up to this, before it is too late. But it takes two to tango. You have had all the signs in front of your face, and you have not caught on yet.


Ok, i give up. How did i screw up now? what didn't i catch on to?

Too late for what?

"it takes two to tango" assumes his behavior is at least half my fault. OK, which half, what did i do wrong and how do i fix it. and while we are at it, will my doing ANYTHING right make a damn bit of difference anyway?


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## snix11

Well, last night he held me in his arms for a bit. seemed like he meant it. NO, i do NOT forgive all his sins. I'm in wait and see mode.

Today he was nice and sweet and kind and all that rot. Just not romantic.


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## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> Ok, i give up. How did i screw up now? what didn't i catch on to?
> 
> Too late for what?
> 
> "it takes two to tango" assumes his behavior is at least half my fault. OK, which half, what did i do wrong and how do i fix it. and while we are at it, will my doing ANYTHING right make a damn bit of difference anyway?


Perhaps I was too cryptic. I meant you were not firm from the get-go - the day you moved in together. You have allowed him to abuse you.

I am beginning to think he might be schizophrenic, so you may never be able to elicit the behaviour you want. On the other hand, is there a possibility of coke or amphetamine abuse?


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## Chopblock

---it takes two to tango" assumes his behavior is at least half my fault. OK, which half, what did i do wrong and how do i fix it.---

No no no no NO! You still don't get it do you?

"It takes two to tango" in this case, is best described as referring to your REACTIONS to his behavior. Just as in a dance where he is leading, you can choose to follow, or you can choose to break away.

Most good advice givers will assert that if you want to "change" a person, the most effective way to do it is by changing your own reactions. A person has direct control over his/her own actions.

He tries to give you these loving pecks? You could back away instead of just eating them up. Why not make him sleep in another bed? Why allow him to talk to you with these sarcastic tones? Why continue to act as if you want him? It just strengthens his own position and allows him to continue dancing around safe in the knowledge that you'll wait it out.

You react to him in ways that do not lead you towards the end you want to achieve. This has been consistently pointed out to you in the course of this thread.

---I'm in wait and see mode.---

In my opinion, you need help with the SEEING part of this equation. You either ignore what doesn't support your desired outcome, or you file it away and continue to wait until what you want comes along.

Remember earlier when I told you that if this keeps up, you won't know WHAT to believe, as you won't even be able to trust yourself? Well ask yourself whether you really DO trust yourself, and then listen to what you are TELLING yourself.

This whole journey has been a log of him treating you poorly, then him doing some pleasantries, and everything continuing on. I've seen little to no evidence of you standing up for your rights, or you taking the lead.

Your little rant about how divorcing him would cost you is just an excuse. What is it costing you to STAY with him? Is your sanity and self-worth equivalent to the money you'd lose? I understand your concern about the children, but I've always felt that the children would adapt, and probably benefit from at least having separated parents in loving households vs united parents in a sour household.

Why not see/talk to some divorce attorneys, spell out your case, and see what they say. If you speak to them, then by law they cannot consider your husband as a client even if you don't hire them. Lock up the best attorneys this way. Get a 3rd party opinion.

In other words, do something OTHER than "waiting and seeing".


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## MarkTwain

Chopblock said:


> Remember earlier when I told you that if this keeps up, you won't know WHAT to believe, as you won't even be able to trust yourself? Well ask yourself whether you really DO trust yourself, and then listen to what you are TELLING yourself.


I think *snix11* is long past the point of knowing what to believe. But she can rescue her mind if she wants to. You can lead a horse...

All I can say is, most people don't get to experience spousal behavior of this quality, so it's understandable that snix11 is in uncharted waters. But get a compass already.


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## snix11

He's been trying to be nice to me again. Hugging me, kissing me, etc. I've been ignoring him for the most part. He asked me if i wanted to come to bed, and I answered 'only if you want me there' he countered with 'do you want to be there' i said i wasn't playing this game, walked away and ignored him. he went to bed like usual, read fell asleep. i came to bed after i knew he was asleep.

That's been the routine now. He tries to 'be nice' like hugging me, i tell him i don't trust his reactions. he then accuses me of starting a fight and not letting him be close to me, gets angry and walks away. 

I wrote him a huge seven page letter. I outlined that I felt i was being treated poorly by him. I did mention how much i loved him but that i was quickly losing that love because of him. I outlined what i needed from him and us. I was thoughtful and kind, but pretty firm. 

Basic message - stop treating me like dirt or i'm gone. 

he hasn't said one word about the letter, but keeps it on his desk. He cleaned up the whole room, top to bottom and left it right in the middle of his clean desk. Wonder why.

shrug. i'm in whatever mode these days. he's leaving at the end of the week for overseas and i find myself looking forward to having him gone. 

I don't know that i'm leaving, but i'm sure leaving emotionally. I don't particularly like ME when i'm like this, but i don't know how else to protect myself.

I think I gave him alot to think about, which is why he's keeping the letter around. Or he just is waiting for me to say "get the hell out". 

Don't know. We don't talk about those things of course.... sigh


----------



## snix11

The letter (long post) 

The whole letter came about when I explained to him i didn't want to be Just friends. He had asked me months ago to back off and just 'be friends' for a while. I tried it, tried to work with him on it. It's not where I want to live. He hurtfully accused me "but you said you could live with me just being friends!" 

Dearest P***,

I do love you and I do like you. I wanted to try to explain what I meant about “not being able to be friends” because I think I may have confused you before. Sometimes I’m more articulate in writing. If you have any questions at all after this, please feel free to ask me! I promise to be open and honest with you about it and to try and help you feel safe in asking anything you want to know.

Over the last few months, I’ve tried to ‘just be friends’ without much success. I can keep it up for a while, but my truest self wants and needs more. You have been very kind for the most part. But I have found there are several problems with the ‘just be friends’ way of living. 

First of all, I think I deserve to live my life (we both do!) with someone who loves me and is in love with me. As much as possible I feel I deserve kindness, love, romance, a healthy sex life, deep caring, fun and friendship. I deserve to be close to someone and have them be close to me. 

I found this on a marriage forum, written from a man who seems to be in a similar situation to mine:


_“So much of what I expected from married life has not come true. I pictured a woman whose face would glow with love and pride at the very thought of me. I imagined her wanting to be physically close on a frequent and regular basis. I pictured someone who would want to make love to me as much as I wanted to make love to her. I thought being with her would bring me joy. It hasn't.”_

That really struck a chord with me! I love it when you are playful and kind and funny and sweet and caring with the kids, but I do miss it when I don’t see the same kind of attention and love. I see how hard you work to keep yourself “in love” with the kids. I see how much time, attention and fun you put into them, even when you are upset, tired or hurting. At one time, you did the same for me, even more so! I miss that. 

I understand that I have done things in the past to make you angry or unsure. I have worked very hard to try and atone for those things. But your stubborn insistence on holding fast to your ‘only friends’ edict makes me feel punished and demoted. 

To be told that I haven’t done anything wrong, that I’ve eliminated the things that make your upset with me, that I am meeting your emotional needs and there is nothing you can think of that I could improve on should make me feel wonderful! Yes! Finally I’m doing something right! If I keep doing this he should feel safe enough to want me again! Well, then to be told later that when I’m being my best and we are getting along wonderfully that is the time you are MOST afraid to open up.. well. Makes me throw up my hands and say ‘well now what?’ 

This was some wonderful advice from a man who has been ‘in love’ with his wife for over 15 years. She isn’t perfect (who is?) but they find ways to keep their relationship going and work hard for it. 

_“Stop trying to be a “best friend" and lover all the time – We all want to fall in love with our best friend because it’s so romantic. It's just like in the movies. Unfortunately you can only be either her best friend who wants to be her lover or her lover who wants to be her best friend. I advice you to go for “her lover who wants to be her best friend.". Make it crystal clear to her that you're interested in her as a 'woman" and not as "just a friend"._

_Take the role of leader – Deep conversations and all that means that she is the one in the driver’s seat and driving the relationship and as long as you let her, nothing will change. Women are more attracted to a guy who takes charge and drives the relationship and not the other way round.

Openly flirt with her – compliment her, hold eye contact more and longer than usual, laugh more, smile more - do whatever flirting means to you._

_Touch – I don’t know if I can ever say this enough; touch, touch, touch. Please touch. Touching someone is a very boding thing to do. Find small ways to touch her - invite her to thumb wrestle, ask to read her palm, playfully pat her shoulder, brush an imaginary crumb from her lips then say “just kidding," give her a foot massage etc. Those small touches can be a very strong link between you two.”_

Well no wonder she’s in love with him! These are all the wonderful things you did for me when we were in love. For my part I’ve learned ‘never ever nag or criticize. Men can handle just about anything else from a woman but those.’ That from mama Maureen by the way. In the beginning, I was religiously adherent to that even tho it was VERY hard for me. I became complacent and didn’t protect your feelings as much as I should and became critical of you. I would like the chance to be forgiven for that and to try again, if that is ok with you. I don’t know if you can ever forgive me for being a nag or making you feel criticized, but I hope so.

Steve Harley keeps talking about your pornography habit. Frankly, I don’t really care that you look at girls on the internet or admire them. I would love to share that with you. Read – SHARE. I can appreciate the female form too, but would prefer this to be something we do together. Steve, and several other people, see it as detrimental to the desire level of the male tho. (shrug) here’s something I found from an ‘ex’ porn viewer: 

_This past December I admitted to occasionally having issues with pornography. She was very hurt as she already had self esteem issues. When I saw how much it hurt her, I vowed never to engage in any of that again without her. Since then our sex life has improved even more! I now see her body as my only release and she is more attractive to me than ever! I'm practically drooling if she is changing or getting out of the shower. Our communication opened up even more too. We tell each other EVERYTHING._

Would that actually help to have you see me as desirable again? I don’t know. But having you drool over me and having open communication would be heavenly, know what I mean?

This from a girl who wasn’t getting as much sex as she wanted from her husband:

_I wanted a compromise. We were driving in the car one day & I just said, " can we talk about our sex life without fighting?" We actually talk calmly & I expressed how important it was to me & how it made me feel when he didn't show interest(like having a roommate!). We've been having alot more fun together!_

Well, at least it’s just not me that feels something huge is missing without a sex life. Yeah, it’s a lot like having just a roommate. And I don’t like that feeling. Sure would be nice to have more fun together!

Here’s and excerpt from a journal entry I wrote:

_He jerks away from me when I try to touch him and rolls over away from me and ignores me. Then he strokes me lightly with his feet. Within minutes he’s snoring. Two hours later I’m still awake wondering what in the hell happened tonight. Then I wonder what is wrong with me that I keep trying to get back in love with someone who doesn’t want me. Which leads me to think, what exactly would I like? What do I want from him? What is so important to me that I am sad and depressed when I don’t get it? What do I need from P, love, life?_

Here is what I want from life:

1. My mate and I to make a pact to have sex every night for a year (with option to renew) any kind of sex is fine – him, me, both, hot oil sexy back rubs, toys, lubes, games, bondage, tantric, role playing, adventure, just making out, one whole night just lightly stroking each other - anything and everything mutually enjoyable, sexy and designed to bring us physically closer together.

2. For us to make a promise to each other and to ourselves that we will never let our love fall from being a romantic love and that we will do whatever it takes to keep us in love.

3. That we will make each other the most important thing in our lives.

4. That we both think that the greatest gift we can give our children is the model of a romantic, committed relationship.

5. That we will promise to be honest with our thoughts and feelings, especially those about each other and not hold back for fear of the others reaction.

6. That we will do our best to keep each other safe, both from the world and from each other’s anger. But not to hold back when we are upset – more to help the other make us happy. TO understand that we are NOT perfect and may get angry or be not perfect but to make up for those times and to go forward without grudges or closing off ourselves.

7. That we promise to be as affectionate, playful, loving, sexy, romantic and strong as we can be and never try to stifle that. That we promise to spend at least 20 hours a week of undivided attention with each other, having fun, being close and that we never give up being active.

8. We agree to do our best not be critical of the other person, but to allow change in each other and ourselves to complement each other and make each other happy and in love with us.

9. We solemnly promise not to hold grudges, to forgive each other completely as allow the other person to forgive us, to understand that there may be harsh words, angry fights and arguments, but that we love each other and agree to work together with love and understanding to never be unhappy with each other and change for and with each other. We agree never to sleep without making up.

10. That we promise to let each other know what our most important emotional needs are, to help the other person meet those for us in the way that makes us the most happy, and that as those needs change, we work with each other with love and understanding to keep each other safe and happy.

11. To promise to protect, desire, learn, change and grow closer with each other every day, forever.

12. To raise our children in these values so that when they grow up they can expect the same treatment from their mates.

I don’t think what I want is impossible at all. And I know this world would be a better place if only two people could find each other and treat each other this way. 

I deserve this, I want this and I am willing to work for this. I wish with all my heart that person who wants these things with me and for me as much as I do would be you. 

I have tried to be my very best person. I have been my most affectionate, my most loving, my most playful, my most sexy. I have tried my best to eliminate his LB’s while meeting his EN’s. I ask all the time if there is any way I can improve or make him happier. He says no, that I haven’t done anything wrong and that I’m making him perfectly happy. He has said and shows me that he is very happy with us just getting along as friends. I understand that he may be worried about opening up and being his best person, but as he tells us, fear is no excuse for not doing what you know is right! I’m afraid to open up to him too, but I do because I know it’s the right thing to do. For me, for him and for the kids.

I wrote this months ago, but I still believe it, with all my heart and soul.

There is so much world out there, so many souls to meet and touch. So many lives I could make a positive difference in. what will become of (him) and I? I’ve already seen I can’t change him without his consent. He wants us to be friends, nothing more. I don’t even know if he really wants to live together. I can do either. Live as friends or live apart. We can do that. But I want to explore, to meld, to become close to someone who desires me as much as I desire them. I want to learn the secrets of tantric sex, I want to be playful and played with. I want to know I’m desired and lusted after. I want to know I can please my partner and be what they desire. I would love these things to be with (him)

I want to be wild and impetuous. To have adventures and do crazy stupid daring things that make me realize I’m alive again. I want to be the best person I can possibly be. A good mom, a good wife, a fantastic lover and best friend. (he) wants the first two, where do I get the others?

Check this out – 
*People just fall out of love.*

_False First of all, people don't just fall out of love. If love dwindles, it's because the marriage wasn't a priority. Love is a living thing. If you nurture it, it grows. If you neglect it, it dies.

The number one cause for the breakdown in marriages in our country is that people don't spend enough time together. When this happens, the little time people do spend together, they end up fighting. Then they grow apart. This distance and alienation sometimes fool people into thinking they've fallen out of love._

_Second, love isn't just a feeling, it's a decision. Happily married people understand that if they engage in activities that bring love into the marriage, they will feel loving. What you decide to do on a daily basis will determine how much love you and your partner feel for each other. Of course, we're human, and our ability to be loving and kind to each other ebbs and flows, as do our feelings for our partners. However, wise people don't allow negative feelings or the absence of loving feelings to make them question their commitment to their spouses. They just understand that they're going through a rough time and that soon, they will decide to do what it takes to evoke feelings of love again.

If you have been considering divorce because you aren't feeling love for your partner, I know you will disagree with what you just read. You have undoubtedly tried to convince yourself that love is a romantic feeling that you either have for someone or you don't, as if the feeling has a life of its own. And since you aren't feeling close to your spouse right now, you've probably told yourself, "I love or care about him/her, I'm just not in love anymore." But consider this: When you got married, if someone had told you that in X number of years, you would fall out of love, you would not have believed that person. Your positive feelings for your partner at the time would have prevented you from even entertaining the possibility that love would die. Well, the same is true in reverse. Your current negative feelings are blinding you to the possibility that you will ever feel different again.

Perhaps you are the one who has heard those dreaded words, "I love you, I'm just not in love with you anymore," or even, "I never really loved you in the first place." I know how devastated you must feel. But rather than wallow in self-pity, be reassured by this. Your spouse isn't seeing things clearly now. When people are miserable, they view their lives through unhappy lenses and recall only unhappy events. In fact, miserable people will often swear the good times never even happened!

Although this might sound impossible, try to contain your anxieties if your partner has expressed doubt about loving you. Even if you do, don't argue, don't debate, and don't try to prove that your partner isn't thinking clearly. The more you try to convince your spouse that s/he is being biased, the more s/he will want to show you that you are wrong.

One more very important point: If your spouse has expressed doubt about loving you, you will feel tempted to do a status check fairly regularly. Do not ask whether your spouse loves you. Don't ask whether his/her feelings have changed. And 
--this is the hardest thing to do -- stop professing your love for your spouse. Your spouse knows your feelings. Each time you say, "I love you," and your spouse feels unable to reciprocate, you remind him/her that something is missing. You don't want to put your partner in that position. When you stop talking about your love, your spouse won't think you stopped loving him/her, you will simply be taking some pressure off your spouse._

Do you find truth in any of the above? If so what part? I agree with the “love ebbs and flows” part. I agree with the “love is a verb” thing to a certain extent. love isn't just a feeling, it's a decision… well hmm. I think it’s a feeling brought about by the conscious decision to let a person love you and to love them back. 

As far as the ‘stop telling the other person you love them’ I have tried that. I have for the most part stopped telling you that. Once in a while I screw up and tell you what I’m feeling. I hope it doesn’t make you feel too awful to hear that I love you. Has it helped you that I stopped telling you I love you and desire you? That I’ve stopped looking at your butt, stopped looking at you naked?

You wrote this to me a while ago:

_My feelings for you have not changed, I am truly sorry for making you think that they have, I will, in the future, should we happen upon a similar problem, do my utmost to assure you that I love, want, and need you beside me for as long as you want to be there day and night, for eons or for hours.

Thank you for being straight and honest with me, and I am sorry if my comments afterwards upset you more instead of what I had hoped to do, witch was to relieve you of your fears of me not wanting you.

I leave you with all my love, all my heart, and my soul for you to do with as you will._

Have all those feelings in you died? Sleeping? Under wraps? Still there but afraid to come out and play? What?

*Grace vs Courage.*

It has come to my attention that I am now at a crossroads in both my life and my relationship. I see my choices as either Grace or Courage. Both have merit. But which to choose?

I feel you treat me in a manner that is deeply hurting me. You openly admit that you are no longer in love with me and no longer want a personal relationship with me. You told me in May that you wanted (needed) to move out. you insisted that there was no one else and that after much soul searching came to the heartbreaking conclusion that you rushed into the relationship with me and we never should have gotten together (built a business, had children, bought cars, spent years together, went on vacations etc) Steve Harley calls this a ‘cop out’. I have to agree. 

By that I mean that your actions don’t match those words. Several times you seem to really want a personal relationship with me, despite your telling me you don’t. You hug me and we sleep in the same bed, but rarely have sex and you no longer act romantic towards me. but there are exceptions to that too. I’m understandably confused! You are almost always “kind” and “cordial” to me. As long as I don’t bring up our relationship, our sex life, or anything you consider ‘personal’ we get along like kind roommates. The kids seem happy with us both. 

But they have caught on. E*** asked me a little while ago “Does love only last for a year? Dad used to be sooo in love with you for that first year, now you don’t ever kiss or go on dates or spend time together at night (sex) or anything.” 

The nonsense that A****** did while we were at Z's is also indicative of how they perceive our relationship. He didn’t see it as anything wrong. It’s perfectly ‘ok’ to assume that dad and L--- don’t sleep together and dad would rather sleep with a redhead (or whomever – the redhead isn’t the point so much as the idea that dad would sleep with anyone else) and that it’s perfectly ok to say that.

Do I really want the boys (all of them) growing up thinking this is an ok way to treat your wife? H and T already have a horrible role model in my ex * Do I want E**** growing up thinking that all she can hope for in a marriage is one year of romance and love then just being roommates and having the man openly disrespect her and the relationship? 

Never mind what it’s doing to me and my self esteem, is this role modeling really good for the kids?

*So, back to grace vs courage. *

It takes grace (which I’ve been doing my damndest to emulate) to put up with the treatment of being disrespected and not loved or cherished and try to make the best of a bad situation. It takes grace to try and live as roommates so that the kids can have two parents in the house. It takes grace to keep trying and to keep hoping where there seems to be no hope for months on end. What would it do to E*** not to have me around any more? What would she grow up thinking to expect? What would she think as a mom? What would the boys think or feel? How would their values change?

It takes courage to stand up for your ‘rights’ and demand (in a nice way of course) to be treated as a wife and a mother should be. With love and caring and respect and romance. It takes courage to realize that if the man you love simply refuses to love you back that you may have to set boundaries and limits and make very large changes that may hurt people in order to do what’s right for yourself. 

It’s not an easy choice. But I feel I’m being forced to make one by you. Partly by your fear and partly by your stubbornness. 

Now, I appreciate you stubbornness in most situations. I kind of admire you for it. But now when it’s directed toward me or directed towards no loving me or being in love with me! 

I would encourage you to read this all over again at least a few times. If any of it hurts your feelings or makes you angry (not my intention, I love you and cherish you and still have hope) to please read it again and try to get the ‘information’ out of it like Steve Harley talks about without shutting down or tuning out.

On another note, I’ve been thinking about what I want for Christmas from you. Yeah, I know, how selfish of me (grin) 

After MUCH soul searching what I would love more than anything is for you to put on some of that role playing you talk about. I would love for you to act like you were ‘in love’ with me while we are at Disney World. I promise to act the same. To act twitterpated if you will. It’s only two weeks, and I wouldn’t expect you to continue it afterwards unless you found you liked it. But yeah, of all the gifts you could give me, that would be the most special and cherished. There is still so many bad feelings from our last Disney trip (for both of us I’m sure) that I would love this to both wash away the past and get a little of that Disney magic for both of us.

By the way, what would you like for Christmas?

In closing, please know that I love you and that I am doing my damndest to keep this hope in the impossible you kept telling me about, but that I am quickly running out of energy and the will to keep trying for something you don’t seem to want.

_WHEW. ok, anyone that has read this whole damn thing must be a masochist or just plain interested. what do you think he's thinking right now? She's crazy? I hope she leaves soon? all is lost? she wants too much? It's about time you stood up for yourself and to hell with what he thinks?_


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## MarkTwain

I have quickly read through most of that. One thing that I can tell you is that there is no way most men over 25 in a *stable relationship* would want sex every day unless they practice semen retention. And even then it is tricky to get just right. When I went for six weeks, I wanted it every 5 minutes, but nothing else got done! 

Most men feel a little drained after cuming - that is why they roll over and go to sleep. You must not what ever you do, put a man in a situation where he cums more than 4 times a week - he will get bored with you. It's different in the first six months of a new relationship. After that, the man should practice cuming only every other time or less if you want to keep the spark.

Semen retention is not for everybody however. Most men I share it with think I am mad. They can't imagine life without orgasms, and they don't realize that for me, sometimes the whole of sex is like a low-level continuous orgasm. Of course, I did not achieve that from day 1. It takes 2-3 weeks for the magic to start kicking in. Even then, I started off going only every other time without ejaculating - you can't expect to put hubby on the advanced course with no warning.

And he must practice kegels!

Still if you can MAKE him do this, he will become more sensitive to you, but he must not jack off to porn - he must never cum without your knowledge - or it's not semen retention.


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## Chopblock

I did not read that huge letter, and I bet he didn't either. If he is smart, he makes you THINK he is reading it and agonizing over it, and so on and so on. I bet he skims it every so often to keep you thinking he is reading it.

I like the part about making the relationship a priority. That really speaks volumes. He clearly has not done this, and you have clearly accepted that.

Who cares what he thinks at this point. He's leaving. So what are you doing when he's gone?


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## snix11

MarkTwain ... perhaps I didn't make my self clear on the 'sex every day thing' to me, sex can be as simple as a deep, two minute soul kiss. It doesn't mean da humping and grinding. Just lying together as man and wife, him holding me in a sexy way would be fine. I can see where it might have sounded like i expected a three hour sex a thon every night. 

Chopblock. Did he read it? might have. don't know. Not agonizing over it any more. what that letter did was give ME alot of closure. To be able to say, in the kindest most loving way possible that I love him but i'm not going to put up with this any more and if you want me, here's what you have to do - 

be loving, kind, romantic. If that's too hard, that's fine. I'll find someone that does want it. 

He was unexpectedly attentive for all of four minutes yesterday. I'm sure us having a MC session this morning doesn't have anything to do with it. Right? *lol*

Back to work...


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## MarkTwain

What does MC mean?


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## snix11

MC is marriage counselor. whom I met with today with Paul. Paul was being AWFULLY sweet up to that time (no big surprise there) but I told MC that I was pretty well fed up. MC suggested I find out where Paul's philosophy lies - ie, does he want to be in love with me or not before I do my 'homework' he gave me. 

When asked if it was his goal to be in love with the mother of his children (what was asked in the first MC session and he answered yes to) he responded "do I have to answer now?" I said that I needed his answer to do my homework. He said he would get back to me. More backing and filling Ptui on all this.


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## MarkTwain

You are ready for The Parable of the Broken Popcorn Machine.
"Ask Dr. Tracy" Love Library

Read her who web site. And that's an order.


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## Chopblock

Sometimes those parables are just stupid. I would go to management and demand my popcorn. If they didn't give it to me, they would discover a hole cut in the glass of the machine.

Well anyways, here is what I find funny. Snix summarized her huge epic letter in a few paragraphs. I wonder whether the husband would have changed even if he got the message.

---love him but i'm not going to put up with this any more---

yeah right... until he's nice to you again, and he buys himself another few weeks. Most people saying "I'm not going to put up with this anymore" are only trying to convince themselves.

---and if you want me, here's what you have to do---

I think he already knows what you want, and he hasn't done it. He's tried to do it with other women though.

What was your "homework", out of curiosity?


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## snix11

A little update - 

H is in Greece installing a machine we sold. I'm getting ALOT of work done with him gone and frankly enjoying the time with him not here. 

Three of the kids are sick, one with scarlett fever no less, I've got all sorts of other issues going on including my very own stalker but frankly I can deal with all of them without him here making me so depressed I can't think. I DO love him, but he drives me crazy!

My "homework" was just to be slightly guarded (whatever that means) and to be receptive to anything he did that was nice. (which i already do, despite your groans and protests)

H DID read the letter it seems. He didn't want to respond to it or wasn't ready to respond to it, but I asked him enough to realize he read it the same day I gave it to him.

When asked what was going on with us, he simply responded that he was on the verge of a cusp of changing to help us be closer. Yeah, right. whatever. 

Uh, what?? Sounds like he's still on the fence or is very carefully putting his toe in the water.

The rest of the time before he left he was very nice, snuggled me at night sometimes and sat with me to watch a movie once. His homework was to spend 15 hours a week with me of 'UA' time which means undivided attention. 

He still considers us watching a movie in the same room as UA. I don't. His A is on the TV not on me. Never the less, he was nice and got off to the airport just fine. He'll be there till the 20th or later, so I've got a week or so of time alone. 

Yea!!

Does my being happy to be without him mean I'm a bad person? Who knows. I just know everything is easier for me to handle without a constant reminder 24/7 that he no longer loves me, desires me or wants me around.

Update on the Redhead thing - he's still doing the porn redhead thing and his T-Shirt for our Disney trip is, who else? Jessica Rabbit, who is also his desktop wallpaper and screen saver. Except his wallpaper one is the, um... X rated one he found on the net somewhere. Men! lol.


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## Chopblock

---Does my being happy to be without him mean I'm a bad person?---

Not at all. When you live with someone, sometimes its nice to have a small break.

---He still considers us watching a movie in the same room as UA. I don't. His A is on the TV not on me. ---

I've heard this go both ways too. Does it count if its a movie that YOU want to watch? Otherwise, what activities can you do that will provide that much UA time? 15 hours per week is over 2 per day -- quite a luxury in a household with so many kids, and full time jobs.

No surprises here though -- he's still on the fence, still keeping you pacified by doing just enough.


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## snix11

well... UA is UA. Undivided Attention. 

I agree, kids, jobs, etc are all attention seekers. But while we were dating we spent over 30 hours a week on JUST each other while holding down the same kids and jobs as single parents. If he spent the amount of time per day he spends watching movies, reading books for pleasure and surfing the net for porn on me, it would be well over 30 hours per week. 

The time is there if we WANT it. As I tell my children, we have the same amount of hours in a day that Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and Tesla had in their days and look what they accomplished!

It doesn't bother me if he isn't spending time with me because he is working or doing something important. It bothers me that I fall below his 'want' list right after movies, comic books and such.

He's messaged me from overseas twice. I can tell he's trying to be friendly. Somehow I'm just not "into" it. I feel kind of like a heel for not responding more positively. It's just that I know if I get my hopes up again, he'll just pacify me till he thinks i'm happy again then go back to his usual ignoring me ways. 

I really hate that I have to show him i'm hurt, angry and depressed before he'll pay attention to me.


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## Chopblock

---As I tell my children, we have the same amount of hours in a day that Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and Tesla had in their days and look what they accomplished!---

That is specious reasoning, as all those historical figures did not have the same distractions and lifestyle that we have today.

By the exact same logic, I could say that not even a century ago, women knew their place as subservient to men, and everything worked pretty darn well.

---It's just that I know if I get my hopes up again, he'll just pacify me till he thinks i'm happy again then go back to his usual ignoring me ways.---

I'm glad that after 120 posts, you are repeating what we have been telling you from the beginning. The real key is what you say next:

---I really hate that I have to show him i'm hurt, angry and depressed before he'll pay attention to me.---

By your own admission, the only attention you DO get when you are hurt/angry/depressed is him pacifying you until he is off the hook. This has been the "norm" for quite some time now.

So what are you going to DO about it? Are you going to stay in the same old same old, or are you going to leave?


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## snix11

106 posts thank you very much. 

Today when he talked to me on the phone, he was back to his old irritated, why is she calling me and how long do i have to be nice to her on the phone ways. I thought about calling him back and asking him why he was angry, then thought, screw it, he won't tell me the truth anyway, so why bother? Yesterday he says 'I love you' on the phone before he got off, today it's an imposition that I call him at all. It's that kind of hot and cold that I can't stand.

I'm not sure what i'm going to do about it. I wanted to do everything in my power to make things better. I've tried changing myself, marriage counseling, learning to listen, learning to never get angry, ignoring him, trying to just be friends, trying to be 'nice' for months on end. 

I tried MarkTwain's really good advice and tried the sex thing on him. It worked for a while, till he rejected me. I've tried everything I can think of till I'm fed up. I'm not sorry I loved him completely, despite his telling me I was stupid to do so.

No matter what I do, he stays the same. Just friends, goes his own way and does his own thing while still living with me. 

He gets angry with me if I get depressed, so I'm learning not to show any emotions around him. He gets angry at me if He asks me what's wrong and I tell him, so I'm learning to lie to him about my feelings. He gets cold and distant no matter what, so I'm learning that I'm much happier when he's not here or we aren't around each other. 

I can't see myself physically moving out of my own house, leaving behind 40k in equity I've built by myself and leaving my kids behind to go running off into the sunset looking for either Mr. Right or 'what do I want to be when I grow up'. 

But I do know that I'm through trying to get him to like me, want me, love me. If I'm not good enough for him, so be it. Let him pursue his fantasies and his redheads. They are welcome to him. 

I thought about what I would think or feel if he had an affair while he's in Greece. I realized that I wouldn't really care. He's rejected me so many times over these last nine months, that I don't have anything in the way of possessiveness left for him. Fine, go have sex with some girl. Or guy, or goat. whatever. 

I guess we'll just live separate lives while living together. Which is what it seems a huge, sad, pathetic number of people do anymore. When the baby is 2 or 3, in a few years, I'll be able to handle seeing my kids only part time. Till then, I'll just spend as much time as possible with the kids and as little time as possible with Mr. "I don't want you anymore."

A waste of a life if you ask me. But it's my bed and I've made it by trusting him and now I have to sleep in it because he betrayed his word and my trust.

----------
JO DEE MESSINA

Boy you sure look good there standin' in the doorway in the sunset light
Maybe I read you wrong thinkin' you could be my Mr. Right
I was puttin' my heart and soul on the line
Said you needed some time, just a little more time to make up your mind
Well it's been long enough
Time is up

Bye bye love, I'll catch you later
Got a lead foot down on my accelerator and the rearview mirror torn off
I ain't never lookin' back. And that's a fact.
I've tried all I can imagine
I've begged and pleaded in true lover's fashion
I've got pride, I'm takin' it for a ride
Bye bye, bye bye my baby, bye bye
-----------

No, I'm not leaving physically. At least not for now. But emotionally I'm gone. Outta here


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## snix11

"Let's cut to the chase. If I were you, I would give him an ultimatum. Sex 4 times a week or you go."

I think that's exactly what I'm going to do. My new years resolution is to have sex 4 times a week. With him or without him


----------



## MarkTwain

yes Yes YES *YES*


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## snix11

Wow, MT, you are in a good mood 

Hey, at least i'm doing something right. 11 days 20 hours till the big two-week trip to Disney World. That should be fun. Taking DH's best friend and wife and their kids with us, that will be doubly fun! I love introducing newbies to the 'world' of Disney.

DH called today and was actually genuine and nice. That's a pleasant change. I was surprised, but not too sappy about it. Don't expect it to last. 

I tried a different MC who suggested I totally emotionally withdraw from him. That I let him lead any and all physical or emotional closeness. Basically I can respond if and when he pursues me, but not initiate even so much as a good morning on my own. She says that should get his attention. 

Shrug. We'll see. It doesn't go against my basic premise of "I'm all done trying" and I'm so busy with work, kids, the upcoming trip and such I really haven't got time to worry about it.

I decided to design a group shirt to help us keep track of the kids at Disney World. Then I decided to design another one... and so on. So I ended up with four shirts each for the 12 of us!! ack! One personal one with their name on it, and all their favorite characters, one for the Christmas party, one for Universal Studios (DH won fear factor there) and one pirate one since the whole group is wild about pirates. whew!

Back to work, hugs to everybody and have a great week!


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## MarkTwain

Your new counsellor sounds like a jerk! Fire him, and pay me instead.



snix11 said:


> I tried MarkTwain's really good advice and tried the sex thing on him. It worked for a while, till he rejected me. I've tried everything I can think of till I'm fed up. I'm not sorry I loved him completely, despite his telling me I was stupid to do so.


This is my thought, your hubby is clearly a low-down flake, but if you want to get somewhere with him (and I would not bother if it were me), this is what you need to do:

You said my ideas worked, I would like to know which ones, as I gave out quite a few. 

Anyway, use my methods, and keep using them. Sometimes he will reject you. Build the expectation of rejection into the system that into the "system", and keep using the methods. If you want to have fun with it, keep a diary and write in code letters for the results every day. Write 'R' for rejection. 'S' for getting sex... etc.

The key to all this is consistency. It may be that at one time you rejected him or really upset him, and he pushes it down to the back of his mind, but it keeps surfacing. Or maybe he is on coke or amphetamines.

If you keep on using the same techniques, you can gradually hone them so that you only retain the ones that really work.

As for your MC's advice... your hubby is a past master at emotional manipulation, and you won't enjoy the game. If you can't improve your marriage, then you should get out. Don't deliberately make it worse.


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## snix11

Good point. The advice of yours that worked was to initiate sex with him whether he showed an interest or not.

Every night for five nights, when we went to bed, I would initiate sex. rubbed his chest, then used my hands or mouth on him. He responded physically. I wouldn't say he was all that emotionally 'into' it but he didn't scream and run away. 

During this time, he never moved to do anything for me, but would allow me to make him feel good.

Once or twice he would say 'that feels good'. That was about the extent of his input into it. For the first several nights, he didn't come. I would stop what I was doing, then cuddle him. Then he may or may not cuddle with me for a minute, roll over and go to sleep. 

I noticed that the next morning, he was much nicer to me. more affectionate etc. It wasn't a conscious effort. It could be the hardwired reciprocal nature of humans - I did something for him, now he should do something (even if not sexual) for me. 

On night five, he seemed irritated when I began the usual nightly stuff. He said to me "why are you doing this?" in a way that clearly stated he wasn't happy. I asked him in a playful tone, "any objections?" He mumbled at that. I said that it was supposed to drive a man wild for sex. 

He said 'well, ok, whatever' in a dismissive tone. 
I stopped what I was doing, unsure of what to do in the fact of this rejection. he didn't say anything. Just looked at me in an angry way. I got up and went to the den to read, he fell asleep. 

That was the end of the 'try sex every night' thing. The next day he's back to being cold and distant. I avoid him.

With him overseas, we might have a one line email or a 20 minute phone call. 15 minutes about business, 5 minutes about the kids. Several awkward silences. The first day he was there, he was actually asking about ME, something he doesn't generally do. He seemed genuine, kind and 'into' me and what I was feeling and thinking. Just like old times. One time, I ventured and said "it sure will be nice to have my honey home". He ignored the comment. 

It's usually like that. I'll say something sweet and personal, he ignores it. He will go on with the conversation like it never happened. He won't get outwardly angry, but he won't respond in kind either. I'll say "I love you" he pretends to be deaf. I'll say "you are such a darling, thank you so much honey!" again, he can't hear me. If I just say "thanks" he'll say "you're welcome" in a warm and friendly tone.

If I ask if he heard me, he gets angry. Of course he heard me! what's wrong with me! 

But you didn't respond, I thought you might not have heard me. 

"So. that's the way it's going to be, huh? Here I am, fuc*ing up everything again! You just aren't happy with anything are you?" etc. 

On the phone tonight he asked to talk to his daughter. He was sweet and loving, asking if she missed him. she said yes. He countered with 'no you don't' she laughed and said she did. HE said he couldn't wait to get back home and hold her again. Then he talked with the boys and it was the same thing. All love and tenderness. He's soooo sweet and friendly and loving and warm with the kids. He extracts from them all this love and attention he craves. And he never has this 'hearing' problem with them. 

So yeah. I feel a little manipulated  - which oddly enough is what he complains so loudly about. He insists that I am controlling and manipulating him. I'll say that I'm sorry he feels that way. That i'm certianly not doing it on purpose. I ask him to share with me what he sees me doing so I can fix it - and he'll say only "you know what you are doing. don't deny it". 

So yeah.. how to handle this guy. Don't know.


----------



## MarkTwain

snix1 said:


> I noticed that the next morning, he was much nicer to me. more affectionate etc. It wasn't a conscious effort. It could be the hardwired reciprocal nature of humans - I did something for him, now he should do something (even if not sexual) for me.


When a man gets turned on for several nights in a row without cuming, a huge tension builds up for release. He starts being nice to the woman that did it, because his body is magnetised.



snix11 said:


> On night five, he seemed irritated when I began the usual nightly stuff.


He may well have jerked of on afternoon 5, and so did not have the craving. You have to stop him cuming, or keep it to a minimum.

Consistency is the key. Be nice to him when he comes back, and resume the nightly antics - but no cuming unless he makes you cum first, or unless he initiates intercourse.

If you can't get to where you want to be after six months, get rid of him, millions of men would sell their right arm to have you in their bed.


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## snix11

Their right arm, huh? lol.. it's not their arm i'm most interested in 

But yes, I'll try that. No real expectations, but what the heck.


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## Chopblock

---I wanted to do everything in my power to make things better. I've tried changing myself, marriage counseling, learning to listen, learning to never get angry, ignoring him, trying to just be friends, trying to be 'nice' for months on end.---

And yet you did NOT try the ONE thing that you've been told over and over and over and over and over -- STOP LETTING HIM GET AWAY WITH IT!

---No matter what I do, he stays the same.---

You will disprove this statement when you decide to do what you should have done from the beginning.

---He gets angry with me if I get depressed, so I'm learning not to show any emotions around him. He gets angry at me if He asks me what's wrong and I tell him, so I'm learning to lie to him about my feelings. He gets cold and distant no matter what, so I'm learning that I'm much happier when he's not here or we aren't around each other.---

Please forgive this poor joke, but I have to say it. I need a new doormat, you interested in the job?

---I don't have anything in the way of possessiveness left for him.---

Your actions make me doubt your words. You didn't convince me, but you did convince yourself.

---My new years resolution is to have sex 4 times a week. With him or without him---

If you were serious about this, you would not wait until new years.

---It doesn't go against my basic premise of "I'm all done trying"---

Your actions assert that the above is not, never was, and probably will never be your basic premise.

---Every night for five nights, when we went to bed, I would initiate sex. rubbed his chest, then used my hands or mouth on him.---

I think this is what disgusts me the most about your situation. He has achieved in disgrace that which continues to elude me despite hard work. There are men out there who go to bed empty every night just wishing that their women would initiate sex in such a playful manner. This man treats you like garbage and gets rewarded.

I can only conclude through correlation, that perhaps the only way to GET a woman do to the nice things you do IS by treating her like garbage. You are pouring your heart and soul into this despite rejection after rejection, and he gets to phone in the effort but still reap rewards!

What assurance do I, or any guy for that matter, have, that if he started treating you nicely, he would still get the same level of effort? What if he started doing all the chores, treating you like a princess, complimenting you, not undermining your self-confidence, and so on? Would the roles just reverse? Would HE be the one posting here saying "I'm trying like crazy and my wife is rejecting me".

I've been away from this forum for weeks, and I came back specifically to check this thread. I could have just re-read the original post and been up to speed.

I'm really hurting for you -- this is so painful


----------



## Chopblock

---When a man gets turned on for several nights in a row without cuming, a huge tension builds up for release. He starts being nice to the woman that did it, because his body is magnetised.---

Mt, does this include if the woman isn't trying? I mean, I find my gf incredibly attractive, and can;'t stop thinking about her even if she isn't really "doing" anything. So if night after night, she is wearing cute pajamas that drive me wild, but not even touching me, do you think sub-consciously, since I'm causing myself to be nice?

Although I seldom go more than 2 days without... "taking care of myself". I'm nice, and wild with desire enough that I don't think the retention will give either of us value.

---millions of men would sell their right arm to have you in their bed.---

I second this statement.

---If you can't get to where you want to be after six months...---

Why waste 6 more months on top of what you've already wasted?


----------



## MarkTwain

Chopblock said:


> Mt, does this include if the woman isn't trying? I mean, I find my gf incredibly attractive, and can;'t stop thinking about her even if she isn't really "doing" anything. So if night after night, she is wearing cute pajamas that drive me wild, but not even touching me, do you think sub-consciously, since I'm causing myself to be nice?


Chopblock -

I don't know if you had a typo or two in that paragraph, but I can't be sure exactly what you are asking. Please could you ask me again?

However, I will try to answer you. Yes, if you are turned on and have an erection, it will cause a hormone build up. This will cause you to be on a knife edge of either being even nicer to her to earn a release, or getting irritable, because there is no release.

However, if you want to obtain mastery over her, and her tactics, the solution is simple, but no one believes me when I tell them what it is, which I guess puts it in the realm of being one of life's secrets: Simply give up solo ejaculation. Stop jerking off to satisfy your perceived need for release. It's fine to play with it, but don't let it shoot.

If you do that, a strange thing will happen. Your cravings will become strong enough for the dimly sensed dynamics in your relationship to become more visible to you.

You will also get a lot more out of sex when you have it with your g/f. You will probably have to pace yourself, to keep from cuming too soon. The next stage is to try not ejaculating every time you have sex.

Once a man owns his own seed, he can actually start calling the shots. I am not going to say any more for now.


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## Chopblock

Yes I see why nobody believes you. Are you saying that if I don't take care of myself, and just let it build, I will purge myself of the craving, and won't want it as bad, which will therefore give me more power because I won't be motivated by wanting sex?

Or are you just saying that without realizing it, I will be so nice to her, that she won't be able to help but be nice in return?


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## MarkTwain

No, I'm not saying that, quite the opposite.

Your sex drive will become so strong, that it will become like a kind of drug that will enable you to see things you can't see at the moment. But you have to harness that power.

Celibacy alone does not produce this effect. It can only come about by being aroused, but not getting release in the form of ejaculation.

For ever 100 men I tell, only one gets it.


----------



## MarkTwain

Chopblock said:


> I can only conclude through correlation, that perhaps the only way to GET a woman do to the nice things you do IS by treating her like garbage. You are pouring your heart and soul into this despite rejection after rejection, and he gets to phone in the effort but still reap rewards!


Having read a lot of your posts, I would say, you are to much the "nice guy". But the solution is not to become nasty. You just need to wake up, so you can see clearly where you are going wrong. Very soon you will (I have a huge faith and respect for you), and it will be as if the light just came on.


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## Chopblock

and these "things I can't see at the moment"... you are talking like, I'll better understand what makes her tick. I'll see her real messages hidden between lines. I'll see whats important to her and what would make her very happy at any given moment.

and in taking care of these things, I will improve her mood so much, that she will want more sex?


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## MarkTwain

Yes, but more importantly, you will see what *you* are doing, which is the main problem.

But yes, when it first started kicking in for me, it was like the Woody Alan film Annie Hall: Amazon.com: Annie Hall: Woody Allen, Diane Keaton, Tony Roberts, Carol Kane, Janet Margolin, Martin Rosenblatt, Paul Simon, Donald Symington, Christopher Walken: Movies & TV - where "as they speak, subtitles flash their unspoken thoughts".

It was like having a voice in my head telling me what my wife was really meaning. See my thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-term-success-marriage/3010-20-years-august-married-18-years.html for what happened next...


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## Chopblock

Well I will try figuring out what inner language she is, and then go from there. I thought there would be more than just visual, audio, and feeling.


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## MarkTwain

Nothing major will happen until you limit your ejaculations!


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## snix11

Frankly, I'd believe in MarkTwain. He was right in theory. The problem is, Chop, that unless BOTH partners are on board (like yours and mine aren't) that the idea may not (probably won't) work. 

For whatever reason, they don't seem to want us. Looks like you have tried everything, so have I. It's frustrating as hell, isn't it? But we can only do so much. They have to meet us halfway.

I know it sounds strange, but I really AM getting over it. Right now i'm too embroiled in business and personal legal battles with my ex to worry too much about anything else. 

Most of the reason for waiting till Janurary, is I really don't have TIME to pursue anything or anyone else till this stuff gets settled. And it's quite possible that even then I may not be in a position to "do" anything about it for a while (like a year). This was advice from my attorneys. 

2009 is shaping up to be a celibate year for me, whether I like it or not. I may not be able to get any love (physical or otherwise) but I can stop being a 'doormat'. 

After two good weeks without him, he'll be home tonight. I'll send the kids to go pick him up at the airport. Normally, I would go myself, but he only sends the kids to pick up ME, so... tit for tat. I made a nice "welcome home daddy" banner to hang up. But i didn't put my name on it and I really did it for the kids. I'll be kind, but not warm. I'll be polite but not affectionate. If he wants anything more from me, he's going to have to prove himself. Even then, I'm not sure I will or can ever believe him again. After that stunt he pulled several months ago, I'm still reeling. 

In June, he tells me he wants to break up, and he's moving out. I'm depressed for two days. He is then ultra close, tells me he's sorry, holds me, makes love to me. Is wonderful and loving. Then after we have sex, informs me he's STILL leaving and was only nice to me because he 'knew he was being an *******' and wanted us to still be friends after he left. So even when he's nice, I can't trust him. Guys, never EVER do this to your girl if you want her to be able to love you and trust you again.

I think anytime any of us decide to try and be kind, loving and giving and forgiving to a spouse that is angry at us for something we are setting ourselves up for 'doormathood'. 

I don't know if he's angry at me, depressed, bored or what. But what I CAN say is I've tried my very best to fix things. If my best doesn't work, so be it. But I will sleep better knowing I gave it my all. 

And when I love again, I will again give it my all. I'm just that kind of girl.


----------



## MarkTwain

Chopblock's situation is different from yours. His g/f is a bit selfish, but she is not a complete head-case. Practacing semen retention will give him the edge to catch the tiny signals he is missing.

In your case, it is much harder. But I still advocate either 100% commitment for your part, or zero%. Any other percentage sucks, and not in a good way.

Try my methods consistently for a few months, or call it a day. You can't do both at the same time.


----------



## snix11

I'm not sure that:

1. I've got it in me to keep putting up with rejection for another few months

2. Initiating sex for a few months without letting him come will work. Especially if he's in 'i don't want you' mode. 

3. what else your 'methods' might entail. 

Just initiating sex? just playing sexually with him? Just ignore his porn use and try and have sex with him every night?


----------



## MarkTwain

Yes, that's basically it. And if it were me, I would not bother, I would get a different man.


----------



## snix11

So he comes home the evening of the 26th. 

Hands out presents for the kids. Gives me a present too. It's a plastic pirate necklace thing. I think. Not really sure what it is. I said thank you of course. I'm pretty sure he meant it for his daughter but ended up giving it to me. He told her how he put her toy right next to his bed and pillow every night so he could see it. Aw, how cute. No, he didn't do anything like that for me, never has since we were dating.

He's nice, but not overly so for the rest of the evening. He goes to bed early (like 7pm) due to jet lag. I got in bed with him, not really sure what to expect. Didn't say anything. He says "come here you" and starts to snuggle me. Says he missed me. I respond to him, but don't really do anything on my own. He eventually initiates sex. I'm floored. what??

In fact he seemed so 'into it' he seemed like a different man. Full open mouth kisses (which he never does) fully into the act (which he never is) Actually gave me a hicky. And the sex session lasted about 30 minutes - much more than the usual 2-4 minutes I'm used to. I have no idea why he did it. He seemed to really like it.

The next day, he's nice again, back to being kind and polite. 

It's now been four days. Hasn't so much as given me a kiss or hug since. No snuggling at night, no during the day affection.

He's still polite, and has the nerve to complain bitterly if I don't tell him "everything" which translates into "anything except personal stuff". I'm learning to lie convincingly in this area in order not to hear an hour of yelling from him and hear this huge fight. He keeps telling me how much he's 'trying to be open' to me. I smell bullsh**. 

After the first night, of course I'm all bouncy and happy the next day. He remarks on it (how stupid can he be?) and I tell him truthfully that when he makes love to me I feel alive and real and loved. And it makes me happy. He says "that's great!" whatever that is supposed to mean. 

Since that first night (and the day after) my mood has deterioriated a little more each day. I feel like a puppy that has just figured out he doesn't get to go with. You know that hopeful look that just looks eventually like 'oh' and is depressed?

I'm NOT showing him I'm angry and depressed about it. I'm keeping at least that much to myself. Time has proved that to be a disaster trying to tell him I'd like more affection and not to be treated like crap. 

What he sees is that i'm 'stressed' and that I'm no longer all bouncy and happy like i was when he came home. Er, hey stupid, I wasn't when you came HOME. it was when you actually paid attention to me. Rememer? I even said so? sigh.

We leave on the trip tomorrow. It won't be too hard except seeing my husbands best friend be all over his wife with love and affection and desire the whole time. They have been together now 15 years. She is overweight and five years older than me. My husband thinks it's perfectly normal for them to be in love, but thinks I'm just "stupid" for thinking it would be nice to be in that place too - with someone in love with me and treating me like a woman should be treated!

I'll be spending my time with the kids, thanks


----------



## MarkTwain

snix11-

There is something about me you don't know about. I'm super cool until I blow. It takes a lot, because I don't hold things in. But when I blow, everybody knows.

So if I were in your shoes, on the holiday. If he didn't go out of his way to compete with his friend in "battle of the most loving hubby", inside and out side of the bedroom, I would threaten to make a scene. And then I would make a scene. I would air our dirty laundry right in front of the other couple one evening, while the kids were else where - it's never fair to involve the kids.

One interesting thing about this tactic is that in defending himself, you might hear him speak the truth about his feelings toward you. As in the title of this thread: *How to get the Truth out of Man...*

A high risk strategy I know, but my mind only has two modes. I am either in "what can I try next", or "give up" mode. But with me, I never do half measures. By the way, this is not the sort of thing I do to my wife, but then she is a reasonable person.

On the other hand... I have detected with you and him an "out of sync" dynamic: One person feels remorse and wants to make up, the other person is not quite ready because there are wounds to be licked. Then when person 2 is ready, person 1 is thinking, "why bother". And on the cycle goes. The partners often swap the role of being the initiator of Mr. or Mrs. nice, but the other partner is always sure to pick up the opposite role - in order to assure failure.


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## Jenni

Sweetie, it sounds to me by all these messages that you are turning into a pretzel for this man. What kind of crap is this that you perform oral sex on him and then he goes to sleep? No guy, no matter how skinny or heavy you are should make you feel this way. Also, I totally understand what you said regarding internet porn.  That is the new relationship killer in our wired world and at the comfort of our homes. A relationship is a two way street and I feel for you. Start doing things that make you feel sexy and desirable, perhaps one of these days you will send out this message out and you will get looks from men. Then, he will start getting worried about losing his caring, devoted wife. In the meantime,if you don't want to cheat on him, get a "toy" until you figure out what to do with this man.


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## brad

MarkTwain said:


> No, I'm not saying that, quite the opposite.
> 
> Your sex drive will become so strong, that it will become like a kind of drug that will enable you to see things you can't see at the moment. But you have to harness that power.
> 
> Celibacy alone does not produce this effect. It can only come about by being aroused, but not getting release in the form of ejaculation.
> 
> For ever 100 men I tell, only one gets it.


Finally a good thread on here. MT has a special gift with giving his advice. 

I have in the past practised celibacy and have achieved great intuitive abilities from this. This is the only part I disagree with you Mark. If your celibate trust me your horny just not acting on it.

This lady's situation is tough. With the kids and all. but I think she knows the guy she is with is a total jerk.

YOu cant make chicken salad out of chicken shiit.Your efforts have been admirable. But at some point you need to move on.


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## MarkTwain

Well *brad*,

Since I started having sex at 18, I only had a few brief spells of enforced celibacy between G/Fs when I was 21 or so. After that I met my wife. So I have little direct knowledge of it, praise the Lord 

But what I am really saying is that the celibate man who has multiple solo ejaculations per week (which is the default bachelor mode) is not getting the build up of which I speak.

Were you an abstainer during your previous celibacies?


----------



## brad

MarkTwain said:


> Well *brad*,
> 
> Since I started having sex at 18, I only had a few brief spells of enforced celibacy between G/Fs when I was 21 or so. After that I met my wife. So I have little direct knowledge of it, praise the Lord
> 
> But what I am really saying is that the celibate man who has multiple solo ejaculations per week (which is the default bachelor mode) is not getting the build up of which I speak.
> 
> Were you an abstainer during your previous celibacies?


Yes it was a spiritual celibacy. I was doing a lot of chanting and meditation. I wasnt touching it at all. I felt like I was on a different plane of existance at the time. Women were very attracted to me and I had amazing intuitive abilities. There really is something to it. I lasted three months and just decided to end it. I think I met a real hot one.


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## cao428

Snix11,

I sense some emotional abuse going on here. He brings you in emotionally, makes love to you the way you desire, and then leaves you out. Does he then treat you like you are stupid? If so it is a pattern/ a cycle ..I know it all too well from my own past. 

Maybe I am off but one thing I do know is you are doing too much for him though and deserve to recieve the same from him. It sounds like you are on the right track in what you are doing and are a very intelligent woman. I think he will be a fool if he loses you!

I agree with Jenni! :iagree:


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## snix11

Jenni said:


> Start doing things that make you feel sexy and desirable, perhaps one of these days you will send out this message out and you will get looks from men. Then, he will start getting worried about losing his caring, devoted wife. In the meantime,if you don't want to cheat on him, get a "toy" until you figure out what to do with this man.


I already get looks and invitations from men! Hubby doesn't care. He's not only not worried, he seems happy and relieved when other men pay attention to me. I'm telling ya, there is NO desire in him for me or for any possessiveness of me. He likes the fact that i'm a good mom and great business person, but he also hates it. 

For 17 years with his previous wife, he got to be the breadwinner and the 'mom'. Now that the kids come to me with skinned knees and wanting hugs and snuggles, he feels left out and jealous of them. But he could care less about me.

I already have toys too, just no time to use them! With six kids running around, privacy is at a premium. The only time I have to play is at night after they go to bed, and that means 'he' is in the bed also. And I feel awful having sex next to him with my toys while he totally ignores me or makes fun of it.


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## snix11

MarkTwain said:


> snix11-
> 
> There is something about me you don't know about. I'm super cool until I blow. It takes a lot, because I don't hold things in. But when I blow, everybody knows.
> 
> So if I were in your shoes, on the holiday. If he didn't go out of his way to compete with his friend in "battle of the most loving hubby", inside and out side of the bedroom, I would threaten to make a scene. And then I would make a scene. I would air our dirty laundry right in front of the other couple one evening, while the kids were else where - it's never fair to involve the kids.
> 
> One interesting thing about this tactic is that in defending himself, you might hear him speak the truth about his feelings toward you. As in the title of this thread: *How to get the Truth out of Man...*
> 
> A high risk strategy I know, but my mind only has two modes. I am either in "what can I try next", or "give up" mode. But with me, I never do half measures. By the way, this is not the sort of thing I do to my wife, but then she is a reasonable person.
> 
> On the other hand... I have detected with you and him an "out of sync" dynamic: One person feels remorse and wants to make up, the other person is not quite ready because there are wounds to be licked. Then when person 2 is ready, person 1 is thinking, "why bother". And on the cycle goes. The partners often swap the role of being the initiator of Mr. or Mrs. nice, but the other partner is always sure to pick up the opposite role - in order to assure failure.


Honestly Mark, I HAVE blown up before. In private, in public (well sort of - I'm not really the air the dirty laundry in public type) Didn't do any good. He's so stubborn (see my note to him) that he will never tell me anything unless it's on 'his' terms. Even then he's usually unhappy and upset about it, blaming me for his behaviors and fears. 

His friend and wife were here for a day, then off to south florida to swim with the baracudas. They will be back today. His friend really was all over his wife, kisses at dinner, loving hugs, friendly teasing, winks, affection you name it. 

I took pictures (at their request) for them to remember this wonderful romantic vacation for them. Hubby spent his time being affectionate with his daughter and our 10 month old. I was allowed to pay for dinner (300.00!) while they went out and played with the kids etc. I'm really trying to have a good time on this vacation, but I find myself more and more alone. 

At Epcot (disney, happiest place on earth my left foot) he got mad at me for who knows what - I think I suggested we stop for a minute and enjoy the singing fountain, he stomped off and was angry and mad at me in public. I finally decided to ignore him. I got an electric wheelchair for my knee - day two it kept giving out and I know I have 10 more days to go. And he's been acting weird ever since. He says he doesn't care that I got the ECV (electric wheelchair) and I even offered him one (he's recovering from knee problems too) but he turned me down and is acting angry at me for using one. I started to get upset, then thought - well whatever. After that, I just went off with the kids and started to enjoy myself and my day. We stopped to enjoy stuff, christmas decorations, letting the kids stop to play in the fountians or whatever they wanted. Due to problems getting 'fast passes' I didn't get to ride other than two rides, but no big deal. I just tried to have fun with the kids. Hubby was all angry about it, but I was basically ignoring him. 

Now we are back to being polite to each other. One of us will go to bed early and the other will say 'good night dear'. By some unspoken arrangement, we are never even awake in the bed at the same time. 

Strange man. But if I ignore him, the vacation is better. Today I am taking the kids to Disney Quest while he stays home with the baby (his choice, there are things he wants to watch on TV) Fine. Should be a nice day without him. 

I know this can't go on forever, but till the first of the year, i'm not going to be in a position to do anything about it. Even then, with the lawsuits I'm dealing with, any more 'domestic disturbances' like a divorce would cause some problems too. Nothing I couldn't eventually get over, but I'm already facing press problems reporting things that never happened - the last thing I need is more half truth press out there. 

Ain't life fun?


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## snix11

As if my life were not complicated enough... Yesterday Morning he approaches me and says he wants to 'give me what I want" and says he is/will be trying to act like he's in love with me.

Well, the slight affection and etc I really don't consider 'in love' and told him i didn't think his heart was in it. He said "let me decide where my heart is" and didn't get mad. that's different. 

So now I would have seven more days of this 'in love' behaviour till he gets off the hook. This was so stupid of me to ask! I'll never know what's real, or what is a show for my benefit. Last night he even initiated sex. First time since we've gotten here. 

I'm understandably confused. I did ask for it. I feel compelled to go along with it. 

fun fun.


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## snix11

So he asks me to sit in the chair with him. Puts my hand in his lap. I try to 'be like water' which was what he told me he wanted. Whatever that means. 

We end up having 'sex' - ie, I give him head. This he thinks is HIM acting like he's in love with someone? oh come on. At least we aren't fighting, he's for the most part acting like he likes me, even if he doesn't love me. No, I don't have any 'hope' or anything like that. No, I don't trust that any of this is real or will last. I used to be in love with him, but he's just showed me too many times he's not 'into' me and doesn't really want me. That should be enough for anybody to figure out.

I'm having fun with his friends and the kids. That's the important part about a vacation, right? It really is wonderful seeing Hubbys' friend be so loving and wonderful and romantic to his wife. When Winnie the Pooh grabbed her around her considerable waist, he piped up, "Pooh, that's MY honey!" everyone laughed. He's wonderfully possessive, romantic and shows her at least 14 times a day he wants her, desires her and she is 'his'. 

If Hubby were 'in love' with his date he would act possessive of her. Am I the only one that feels that a certain level of possessiveness is mandatory for a healthy relationship?


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## MarkTwain

sinx11-

I can't write much - I'm running a bath!

Maybe he is really mixed up. Really mixed up. See if you can get something consistent going, and allow him to "phase in and out". Given his selfishness, I don't think you should ever give him a b/j unless you get something in return FIRST.

You can still be firm, and loving at the same time.


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## snix11

So stipulated. Hope you had a wonderful bath! Hubby bought me a 'present' yesterday! Well, so far he has bought me two on this trip.

1. a Pin that says "i love you" at the same time he bought himself a Jessica Rabbit pin (she's a redhead ya know) He later said he didn't care if I wore my pin because it meant much more to me than it did to him. I almost pinned it back on him where the sun doesn't shine.

2. A picture of himself - one of those amusement park caricatures. 
No background or anything romantic like him carrying chocolates or flowers, just a pic of himself. Gee, how romantic.

We have been spending our days doing different things. We go to an amusement park, he rides at the other end of the line with his daughter, ignoring his sons or me. We usually split up after lunch and I go off with the little kids and the baby while he rides the roller coasters with the big kids.

He's already offered our planned 'date night' to his best friend and wife. I get depressed enough at night to go to bed early. He stays up with his friends. I'm having fun with the kids, but I'd hardly call this 'romantic'.


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## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> He's already offered our planned 'date night' to his best friend and wife. I get depressed enough at night to go to bed early.


I would call him out on that one. If it were me, I would tell him to reverse it or it's separation time. I would also insist he tell you what's really going on in his head. Speak to the other couple and stop pretending all is well. If they are really his best friends they will have some advice. This might be your big chance. 

You need to be clear on what is a small infraction and what is a big one. Giving away your date night is huge. He's trying to destroy you.


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## Chopblock

I see very little has changed here.

---For whatever reason, they don't seem to want us.---

Actually snix, we've done it twice this past week -- both times her idea.

---And I feel awful having sex next to him with my toys while he totally ignores me or makes fun of it.---

This actually might make the point a bit stronger.

---We end up having 'sex' - ie, I give him head.---

You ended up rewarding his bad behavior by giving him exactly what he wanted and getting nothing in return.

---Giving away your date night is huge. He's trying to destroy you.---

This dude has it MADE! He can get away with anything scot free and you'll just lie down and take it. He might even get some head out of the situation.

Until you decide to follow through, nothing will change.


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## StrongEnough

Chopblock said:


> I see very little has changed here.
> 
> ---For whatever reason, they don't seem to want us.---
> 
> Actually snix, we've done it twice this past week -- both times her idea.
> 
> ---And I feel awful having sex next to him with my toys while he totally ignores me or makes fun of it.---
> 
> This actually might make the point a bit stronger.
> 
> ---We end up having 'sex' - ie, I give him head.---
> 
> You ended up rewarding his bad behavior by giving him exactly what he wanted and getting nothing in return.
> 
> ---Giving away your date night is huge. He's trying to destroy you.---
> 
> This dude has it MADE! He can get away with anything scot free and you'll just lie down and take it. He might even get some head out of the situation.
> 
> Until you decide to follow through, nothing will change.


:iagree:
Time to start thinking about your needs.


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## MarkTwain

Chopblock said:


> This dude has it MADE! He can get away with anything scot free and you'll just lie down and take it. He might even get some head out of the situation.


Dude! why can't I write like you?


Do you know what sinx11??? if my wife gave me head after I treated her like that, and then let me just roll over and fall asleep, I would not respect her. Perhaps I would start looking at redheads. You are pricing yourself so low, you don't even think of yourself as trailer trash.

So the question is, how low can you go?

PS: I have nothing against living in a caravan, I spent well over a year in total living in a caravan with my wife and 3 kids, but it was by choice. Thank God it had a partition.


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## snix11

How low can I go ? 

For my kids? Pretty far apparently. 
To try and keep the family together? pretty far apparently. 
To try and change myself so the man I fell madly in love with could love me again? Pretty far apparently.
To try and work thru the lies and the issues and the un-communication? Pretty far apparently.

He's really been TRYING, even since we got back. By that I mean, he makes himself be nice to me. 

He MAKES himself give me a peck on the cheek on the way out the door, everytime. 

But even then, he kind of sighs like it's some big hassle. Yesterday I was in a good happy mood, about to take the kids to the movies. I invited him along, got a sitter for the baby and all, he said he just wanted to take a nap. Found out later he didn't even take a nap. Before I left I gave him a huge hug and a kiss, throwing my arms around him and even told him I loved him. He hugged me back in a rather offhanded way, and looked really uncomfortable and didn't say anything. I had to try SO hard not to cry. I didn't mean to make him uncomfortable, it just happened. I was in a great bouncy happy mood, loved everybody! I have to be oh so careful not to say things like "I love you" or tell him how much he means to me or anything emotional like that. He just shuts down. 

He MADE himself tweak my nipple when we get into bed. Well, he did once. And yes, that was the extent of the entire sexual experience. 

But he turns away so he doesn't have to look at it (how weird is that??) and then he turns away and ignores me. He's obviously not 'self motivated' to be nice or loving or desiring me. Yes of course it's ruining my self concept, how could it not?

I just loved him enough to try and work thru whatever his problem was to try and fix it. I really thought he wanted to fix things between us. Whatever his problem is, I haven't been able to reach him, counseling hasn't been able to reach him, nothing has. After eight long months i'm left sad, tired, frustrated, lonely and disillusioned. 

Today his daughter had a temper tantrum (she's got her dad's temper!) and I was working thru it with her. Lucky for us and the house, she hardly has them anymore. He heard her screaming and came into her room. I overreacted by saying "oh great, your screaming brought your dad down." He had been taking a nap. She had been screaming that I was 'hurting' her and 'killing' her. Because she gets so violent, I have to hold her (in a bear hug from behind, the way the child psychologist said to do) to keep her from hurting herself or kicking holes in the walls till she calms down. She found out that if she screams that i'm hitting her etc that will bring dad running to her rescue. No, of course I don't hit her. But she was dad's favorite and her bio mom totally ignored her and neglected her which also made her under dad's wing for years. In the past he would come in when I was working with her and start yelling at me, then write in his journal later how I was secretly abusing her and how horrible I was to her etc. (oh please). She has really improved over the three years she's been here and she's turned from an angry spoiled brat into a much nicer and more typical 9 yr old girl, mostly sweet and loving. Today it came about from something that happened at school (not her fault) and she was busy taking it out on her little brother - I sent her to her room to chill out and she exploded. That's when I went in to hold her so I didn't have to patch anymore drywall or replace another door!

After, she wrote me this very nice note saying how much she loved me and loved being my daughter. He read it and was surprised. I'm not. I've found when you set firm but loving limits for the kids and don't let them get away with being a brat, they love you even more in the end. She and I get along really well, more and more lately. She doesn't understand why dad won't marry mom but loves me anyway. 

Anyway, I overreacted when he came in the door - he said "all i did was walk in" and left in a huff. He's right about that. Almost always before, this kind of thing would result in a huge fight between us or him pouting or sulking for hours, sometimes days. 

She calmed down quickly after he left (he didn't rescue her this time) and I made all the kids hot chocolate afterwards and we talked about decorating. I gave him some time to calm down - if only his temper was as easy to deal with as hers! - and then went upstairs. He had been listening from the loft and cleaning the bathroom. I didn't have anything to hide and didn't really care. I'm sure he overheard me saying to the kids that I wasn't sure if we were going to put up the decorations tonight because I didn't know what kind of mood he would be in. When I came upstairs I was on high alert, as I usually have to be under this kind of thing and tried to avoid him. He said 'hi honey'. I said 'hi' back. After a bit he came over to my desk and leaned over and kissed me on the cheek and said he was sorry he upset me. I said I was sorry I upset him too. He said I didn't. He often tries to get me into that back and forth game. I wasn't in the mood and just didn't say anything. 

But it was nice what he said and I could see that he was REALLY strained at 'having' to be nice to me when he was actually really angry at me. He left the room quickly after that to recover. A while later I gave him a hug and told him genuinely that I appreciated how hard he was trying and that I knew it was hard for him some times. 

He seemed really uncomfortable with that. He then said he was going to go get dinner and left. He left the room without saying anything else, then came back in a few minutes later and gave me a peck on the cheek (like he forgot)

So it's been like that. He's trying, but his heart doesn't seem to be in it. 

At night, when he falls asleep, he plays 'footsie' with me. I guess it's a subconcious thing. I have NO idea where his mind it, but yeah, I agree he seems REALLY messed up. 

I'm thinking of giving him the gift of 'freedom' for xmas. Basically telling him that I appreciate how hard he tries, but I don't want him to feel obligated to be here. I want someone who really wants me, not someone who forces himself to be nice to me. 

Any idea how to word a letter like that?

sigh. And to think this is the man who I could tell anything and everything to in my whole universe and he did the same with me. we could talk and share and communicate about everything. I really thought I had found the one. Then he changed and I don't know why.


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## snix11

Grrrrr. Now he tells me that he thinks we should put off putting up the decorations till tomorrow. After the kids got their hopes up too. 

Of course he'll get his way. I've learned NOT to argue with him or go against his wishes. and no, we don't get to discuss it. He'll approach me all meek and sweet and say 'honey, i think we should put off putting the stuff up till tomorrow' but if i say ANYTHING against it like 'gee dear, they really were looking forward to it and we have everything out' he just blows up or sulks. 

oh well. I realize how much i've changed and still changing. Most of the changes I don't even like and heck, they aren't working anyway.


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## snix11

back forth, back forth. It's a wonder i'm not totally off my rocker!

he makes a wonderful pasta dinner, even buys wine (he never does that) Ravenswood - his namesake. he even bought the kids sparkling cider. ok, the wine, purported to be 'enhanced' with the flavors of oak, leather and tobacco (sounds like something you would scrape off the bottom of a saddlebag) was awful, but it was fun and sweet of him. I even ventured a sexy joke or two - he mentioned something about making an Italian dinner on short notice - I said that I couldn't think of anything better for dinner than a short Italian (he's 5'9 and shorter than my 5'11) for dinner. He smiled.

After dinner, I'm clearing the table, he had mentioned at dinner he wanted to spend time with me alone after dinner. so he puts on his coat, i go to get mine. i find out he's taking his daughter to wal mart. and he's not taking the other little kids. so i get left at home with crying 5 and 8 yr old - wondering why they didn't get to go too, a wet baby and the dishes and why he bothered to mention he wanted to spend time with me.


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## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> I've found when you set firm but loving limits for the kids and don't let them get away with being a brat, they love you even more in the end.


Well, treat him the same, like a BIG KID.




snix11 said:


> I'm thinking of giving him the gift of 'freedom' for xmas. Basically telling him that I appreciate how hard he tries, but I don't want him to feel obligated to be here. I want someone who really wants me, not someone who forces himself to be nice to me.


The ultimate passive aggressive - you're trying to get him to leave *you*, because you haven't got the guts to leave him.



snix11 said:


> He MADE himself tweak my nipple when we get into bed. Well, he did once. And yes, that was the extent of the entire sexual experience.


A tweaked nipple deserves a slapped butt - it might have led to fun! edit: Perhaps that's the real meaning of tit for tat 




snix11 said:


> oh well. I realize how much i've changed and still changing. Most of the changes I don't even like and heck, they aren't working anyway.


Go back to who you were, and be firm. What you are doing is not working. Firmness might include an ultimatum - to yourself.


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## MarkTwain

Ultimately, I am against boundaries for myself because I feel so strong inside, but I occasionally resort to them. A Zen master once said, "he who can be punctured must be a balloon". However, to reach the realization of that sage advice it is necessary to reach the point where you are so fearless that emotional abuse just passes through you without doing any damage because there are no brittle or hard bits inside you to get broken. This is the state I aspire to. You can't fake it until you have it, so until then, boundaries are probably the way to go. But when you reach this state, people just do not attack you - you don't smell like a victim, so you don't get victimised.

*ljtseng* gave this link about setting boundaries. Please study it:

Setting Personal Boundaries - protecting self

Below is a relevant quote for you regarding when your hubby promises you some "US" time, and then abuses you by pretending it did not happen:

*If you break your plans with me by not showing up or by calling me at the last minute to tell me that you had something else come up, I will confront your behaviour and share my feelings.*

What you have consistently done, is trained your husband to behave like a fickle 5 year old. If he had more dignity he would not allow himself to sink to such depths. If you had more dignity, you would not join in the tango.


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## Chopblock

---He MAKES himself give me a peck on the cheek on the way out the door, everytime. But even then, he kind of sighs like it's some big hassle.---

I'm going to say this again, and maybe you'll listen:

As per the title of your thread, you ARE getting the truth out of him by way of his ACTIONS. 

- "Making" himself kiss you and sighing like its a big hassle is THE TRUTH.

- Promising to spend time with you, and then giving that time away without consulting you IS THE TRUTH.

- Jerking off constantly to redheads and trying to cheat, but being extremely begrudging about sex with you IS THE TRUTH.

---wondering why they didn't get to go too, a wet baby and the dishes and why he bothered to mention he wanted to spend time with me.---

Because he knows that all he has to do is SAY something to you, and you are pacified. If he tells you he wants to spend time with you, he buys himself more of what he wants without having to give in return.

Again: his WORDS (I want to spend time with you) are NOT the truth. His ACTIONS (taking the kid out and leaving you to clean up) ARE the truth!

---Any idea how to word a letter like that?---

I don't think you'll do it, but I know EXACTLY how to "word" that letter..... with ACTIONS NOT WORDS. Either pack your stuff and walk out the door never to return, or pack his stuff and have him removed.


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## lostluv

:iagree:

This guy is manipulating and using you, and you are enabling him to do so. This will continue to happen until you break this cycle.

You are better than this, you deserve better. That being said tie and time again it is words wasted until you decide you have had enough. Until then you will continue to subject yourself to his treatment and he will continue to provide it.

IMHO...he is playing you like a fiddle.


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## snix11

Pack my stuff and walk out the door? it's my house, my mortgage, my bills, my responsibility. His name isn't on the house or mortgage at all. So i pack up, walk out and try to figure out how to pay for what is now his house but still my bills? Try and figure out where to get an apartment big enough for the six of us, two dogs, two cats and two horses?

If I left, I'm sure he would too. go back to his home town. so that leaves what? an abandoned house, 50k in equity and me still left with the mortgage. 

Where is the sense in that?


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## snix11

Update. He's been consistently nice and affectionate to me now for three days. hugs, kisses, attention. footsie at night. sitting on the bean bag chair with me to watch movies. holding my hand in bed. granted, 99 percent of it platonic. Once in a while he does something vaguely sexual like running his finger down my cleavage if i'm wearing a low cut blouse. but if i mention it, or try to respond, he shuts down. 

Once he gave me a big hug and a kiss on the neck in front of the teenager. The teen said 'oh gross, don't do that' typical teen. I jokingly said 'hey honey, lets be gross' and went to kiss him. he pulled away and didn't say anything. more rejection.

I can only think that it's some kind of weird control issue. He has to be the one to initiate or chase? But come on. we are both adults, both in our 40's. I can't ever initiate or respond? that's just too weird for me. 

It didn't used to be like that. two years ago, he was all over me. two years ago, we constantly made the teens groan because we were kissing and smooching and loving all the time. We had sex consistently several times a week, up to three times a day. he never minded that i initiated, he said he liked it. he would flirt with me, show me 100 times a day how much he wanted me and desired me and loved me. we could talk about anything and everything. it was the most perfect relationship i had ever had, and to this day i can't even imagine one more special, perfect and wonderful. 

what i don't understand is what changed? 

I have noticed that lately he's been gaining weight. he was always in perfect shape, now he has a paunch. i'm curious what happened.

that's the point of 'getting the truth' out of him.

i know he's not into me. i know he no longer wants me. what i don't know is WHY and WHAT HAPPENED. 

Despite his insistence that he doesn't know what changed in him, i don't believe it for a minute. he's deliberately lying to me about his feelings and i don't know why. 

that's the truth i'm trying to get at. What changed, why don't you desire me anymore.


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## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> Pack my stuff and walk out the door? it's my house, my mortgage, my bills, my responsibility. His name isn't on the house or mortgage at all. So i pack up, walk out and try to figure out how to pay for what is now his house but still my bills? Try and figure out where to get an apartment big enough for the six of us, two dogs, two cats and two horses?
> 
> Where is the sense in that?


What about throwing him out? And are you so in love with material possessions that you would put that above your own peace of mind?

I suppose my previous post about boundaries was a waste of time?


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## lostluv

First off: Throw him out, you said he wants to leave...let him go. He is still just playing games with you.

Secondly, is your quest for "the truth" that urgent to you? What makes a person stay with someone they know doesn't want to be with them anymore while they try to find out why? Are you convinced that if you got the "real" reason you woud be able to find a fix and make him want you again?

He is giving you the answer you are getting for one of two reasons: 
1.) He really doesn't know and it's not something he wants to spend time figuring out.
2.) He has no desire to discuss it with you and doesn't see it as important.

Either way the message is clear: I no longer want to be with you. For me that would be truth enough to get me off my a** and doing something about my life.


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## Angry Andromeda

I agree with losluv. If you ask your husband to leave, and he insists on staying, then you'll have a reason and the means of finding out why he's been acting this way. Until then you are only allowing him to do to you what he pleases.

I know it's hard. You are worried you'll make it worse. It's ultimately up to you, but you pay a heavy price by living in limbo.


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## Len554

I've been reading almost all of this thread (maybe 8 of 12 pages) and I'm a newbie here. May I add something?

Snix11, it seems like you and your husband are trying to communicate your needs to one another through attraction/rejection techniques that I'm not so sure is working out. I'm getting a number of mixed messages through reading all these posts and its interesting in learning everyone's quirks and kinks through their posts.

Let me get to what I see going on between you and your husband... I get the impression that you both don't know your individual and joint responsibilities in your relationship and that's what you need to figure out. I'm reading a lot of posts that point at blame and finding faults --to then assign blame, but I'm not getting any sense as to _how_ either of you are finding and defining your responsibility in your relationship. Forgive me if this sounds abstract, I have a communication disabilty and am not always sure that what I say is heard with the intentions that I mean.

I'm reading a lot of advice that stems in propagating discoveries through an attraction/rejection dichotomy. And some of the advice seems too general and 'poppy', or 'Oprah-ish', like your husband not being "all that into you" that clouds the water. I don't know... that advice seems more divisive and opposing than it does in leading toward a solution.

I am impressed though, by a lot of the interesting sex advice. To me, the beginning of the relationship is grounded in sex as a strong bonding force between two people. It seems like you and your husband found that physical bond right away, and now that you're both established in that area, you're both needing to advance your relationship in areas you're not aware exist. It seems like you're both relying on your bonding moments to find the next step in your togetherness, but you can see it. You've graduated from a relationship to a partnership and you're using your initial 'relationship sex' to define what to do next.

Sex is an ingredient to the relationship. At the beginning, sex is a powerful force and it feels like having a big juicy steak when before you've only had hamburger (or pardon the pun, handburger) all the time. It seems like some people here are excellent and inventive cooks when it comes to using sex as an ingredient in their relationship. I'd like to know how they got there because I'm at the stage in my relationship where I can only make macaroni and cheese when it comes to the culinary bedroom. "Macaroni" is finding her own apartment in my case, but we're continuing to work things out...


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## snix11

well, yesterday we had a big fight. those are really rare these days. 

i finally said: if you don't want me, move out. if you don't need me, move out. if you don't love me, move out. if i'm not good enough for you, you need to find your own place and your own way. 

He stomps off, yelling. and what did he say? "i get it. you just want me to get the F**K out of your house!!"

sigh. he didn't hear the if's then? please. Of course he did. But he claims, nay swears all he heard is "get out of my house" So he goes out to the back yard with his cigarettes and his book. three hours later, i follow him, to apologize for losing my temper. While i don't regret what i said, i could have said it without yelling. 

that led to us talking. I tried to hear the messages under all the blame and yelling and nasty comments and such. 

he thinks I'm pre-meditatively controlling him and manipulating him. he thinks that i do it subconsciously. he thinks that i do it not for gain but for fun. 'it's an end to itself'. I would ask him for specific examples and he would say 'if I want to go to one store, you don't let it go at that. you tell me you want me to pick something up for you too'. what?? This is manipulation and control? I thought of it as a normal, healthy thoughtful request. While you are there, could you please pick up a gallon of milk for the kids is somehow proof of me trying to 'confuse and sabotage his brain'??? I don't get it.

I've looked carefully at what he said, looking for any possibility of truth in it. honestly, i don't find anything. neither does the marriage counselor. 

I think he's the one doing the manipulation and control. In fact in just the conversation we had yesterday, I counted all the controlling and manipulative statement he made at one point, while also counting my own. I was really paying attention to the words that were used by both of us, trying to see his point. In five minutes he made over 75! I didn't make any. He would say Things like "you don't want to change" "you never do anything right" "you hate me" "you are just answering my questions to confuse me" "from the beginning all you ever wanted was to hurt me and control me" "you don't love me" "anything I say doesn't make a difference, so why should I talk to you" etc. 

I was not allowed to have my own thoughts and feelings, he would dictate to me what i was feeling, thinking. why i did anything. I pointed this out to him, gently and he blew up saying i was just saying that to confuse him and piss him off. Oh please. 

He says he loves me, but not in the way I want him to. I asked him what that meant, and he blew up at me, claiming that knew full well what he was talking about (i don't) and that me even asking what he meant was just another example of me controlling him. Oh for Pete's sake.

Finally, I re-iterate that I'm sorry I lost my temper, that he did have some decisions to make and just walked away. 

He comes in later and gives me this big hug and says he's sorry we fought. I'm like WHAT????

Then he led me to the couch, took me in his arms and I'll be damned if i didn't see HIM there. The look of love and tenderness and just HIM. The him I knew before when he cared for me. That's two times in three weeks he's been "on" so to speak. 

I'm an emotional wreck from the argument - headache, high blood pressure, almost looks like i have two black eyes - and end up going to bed early that night. The next day, he's back to being polite but cold again. I asked him if I did anything wrong or if he was upset. He said no.

Over the last several days he's been coming up behind me and slapping me on the butt. Just kind of walks by and does this. He has made no other sexual overtures or anything. If I tell him to cut it out, he sulks. If I respond sexually, he turns off. If I respond socially "good morning to you too" with a smile he seems pleased. 

Obviously he's trying to control me. Just not sure what his game is. 

I'm still serious about my letter and what I said. By Jan 1, he needs to either get on the program or make other living arrangements. I love him and I will miss him, but this on / off thing is not fair.

I'm really trying to be fair - does anyone else see that I am being controlling, manipulative or otherwise acting in the manner he's talking about? And what's with the butt slapping? and what's with the dropping of the guard and look of love, followed by back to the old habits of ignoring me?


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## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> I'm really trying to be fair - does anyone else see that I am being controlling, manipulative or otherwise acting in the manner he's talking about? And what's with the butt slapping? and what's with the dropping of the guard and look of love, followed by back to the old habits of ignoring me?


Who can answer such a difficult question.

The one thing that does come out, is that when you shouted and demanded, and spoke the truth as you saw it, you got a delayed but positive response. You said you got HIM.

Perhaps directness is good?


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## snix11

I guess. I think it may be either that or the fact that I was mentally and physically devastated after our argument. That said, this morning he gave me lots of attention and affection when I got up. 

But then, he may have seen that I made an appointment with the MC.


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## smoochybryantchad

Well it sounds like he loves you. He just is comfortable with his life the way it is and ony needs sex one time every 8 weeks with you. If you want to have more sex with him, you have to turn him on. I suggest comunicate, and ask what he really likes besides red heads, and then listen and do what he likes. Also men like women to take care of them selves, so that might be a place to start for building more attraction. I mean the general femine and health routines by the expression taking care of your self, brushing your hair, eating right, bathing frequently, exercise, wearing purfume, and most of all beiing happy and positive around him. But listen to what he likes, and try to acomodatethat to him, im sure he wont mind if you do it casually and dont make a big deal that you did everything for him, something like that.


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## Chopblock

Arrrrgh Snix....

If you put just a measly quarter of the energy you currently expend on being a victim, and direct that towards accepting a solution, you'd have fixed this problem ages ago!

For starters, stop calling your news "updates" and just call it "reruns".

Good on you for telling him to get out. That is progress I guess. Now follow up on it. Like with this:

---By Jan 1, he needs to either get on the program or make other living arrangements. I love him and I will miss him, but this on / off thing is not fair.---

I'm going to make a prediction. I predict that he will "get on the program" temporarily, which will buy him an extension, as it has the last 20 times. Unless you specifically define what "on the program" means, he will continue to play you on/off again, and you will continue to see only what you want to see, now what is true.


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## snix11

smoochy - you may be right. I have, 100's of times asked him exactly what he wants. sexually, personally, emotionally. and i've really listened! he has said he likes role playing. but he feels uncomfortable doing that with me. he 'doesn't know' why. i have suggested trying it anyway. he said sure then refuses or forgets or just kindly as possible rejects me. 

He says he doesn't know where his libido went. doesn't want to talk about it, will get back to me when he feels like it. That was last February.

Tried doing the 'make me the best me' thing. dressed up every day even tho we work from home. He still wears sweats and pj's to work. was perky. was friendly. gave him space. did nice things for him. initiated affection. it was over 90% rejected. I could only keep that up for a few months till i felt too stupid to continue that. 

He says he likes a woman shaved. Pain that it is, I did this for him. Nothing. didn't even mention it. kept this routine up for months. no dice. 

so i've tried the 'rekindle' method. not getting very far.


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## snix11

Chop - Ohhhh! There's an actual solution to this. Well, that's good to know. Care to share with the class an actual solution that doesn't make me a part time mom to my 10 month old baby?

He's been very very very nice. Very affectionate. Very kind. very real even. Just not at all interested in me as a woman. I'm a mom, a friend, a business partner, a footsie warmer. Just not a 'sexual being and woman' to him. He likes me in all those other roles. 

He said he was happy and nice to me these days because he was giving himself permission to be happy. uh.... huh? yeah, it's one of those things i'm not allowed to ask wtf he's talking about.

he's been totally off the porn for at least a week now. still no interest in sex. oh well. I guess we just have different needs. He likes to have sex about twice a year, i'm more of a twice a day girl. he doesn't see what my problem is. 

If he's honestly gotten with the program in all other ways, I feel like a selfish bit*h demanding more sex than he wants to give.

But a horny selfish bit*h.


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## MarkTwain

snix11-

On top of everything else, I'm guessing he is reading this thread too!

Anyway, I have changed my viewpoint. I feel he is the perfect partner for you at the moment. He is sending you a message, and you have not quite gotten clarity on what that message is, so a subtler one would be lost on you. 

When you have received and understood the message loud and clear, then things will be different.


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## snix11

Mark, your sarcasm is a little too subtle for me 

and no, he's not reading this forum. I was on another forum that he WAS reading and it was all too obvious. For one, he would quote things I said in forum that I would never say in person. Two, he would pout and get angry if I said anything negative on the forum. Three, every single time (i started testing this) that I said I needed sex, he would buy me chocolate within 12 hours. 

I had fantasies of giving him all the candy back in a big basket with a note that said "thanks, but I was looking for something a bit more physical. wanna fu*k?" 

So, on the off chance (like hubby says i'm way to critical of people and too quick to see sarcasm when they actually mean me well) that you are serious, mind telling me what the message is?

Again today, sweet, kind, affectionate. Hugs during the day and a warmer than usual kiss tonight as he left. If I get upset, he soothes things over where he used to yell and get angry. It's perplexing.

He acts like he cares deeply for me, and he says he does. but he just doesn't seem to want sex.

We were planning on going out tonight - he got invited to another UFC party. I found out I have more legal homework (blech) he was very kind, offered to stay home etc. He asked if there was anything he could pick up on the way home for me, or if there was anything he could do to help. His freinds were expecting him, so I bid him go and have fun. When he asked if there was anything he could do, I just said - spend some time with me when you get back or tomorrow? He said sure, and gave me a very warm kiss and hug. 

Does this seem like a guy who's just using me? not to me either.


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## MarkTwain

snix11-

I was not being sarcastic. I had an epiphany about my behaviour the other day...

The message is in your face. It probably started off subtle, but you just did not hear it, so now it's gotten huge. So he is in the role of being whatever it takes to get through to you - and let's face it, he has not gotten through yet. Of course, he is not doing this deliberately, he is just living his life. But I am just analysing the dynamics in an abstract way - without emotion.

From my point of view - which is probably skewed, it is all to do with what he dishes out and how you enable and encourage that. And that in turn is perhaps based on how you view your self worth.

From your last post, it appears hubby has promised you some time together. I wonder what you will do if he breaks that promise?


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## Len554

Hmm. Kinda weird that you were posting to each other through a discussion board. Seems like you have some trouble both expressing your inner emotions to one another, AND in hearing one another's attempts at inner emotions being spoken. 



> He acts like he cares deeply for me, and he says he does. but he just doesn't seem to want sex.


Your husband is looking to give and receive comfort from you. Why? Because comforting you is the way he physically and mentally learns your identity. Comforting *you* means that you're not his sister, you're not his old girlfriend, you're not his mother, you're you. Once he learns who you are this way, he'll be able to begin a more deeply romantic, sexual relationship with you.

Regardless of what has happened in the past, a new language is emerging and being developed out of your relationship now. You're both probably speaking it in two different ways that are not synching up, or maybe one of you has started speaking it and the other hasn't caught up yet.


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## snix11

Len,

To the best of my knowledge, he has NEVER posted to any forum whatsoever. Do you have information to the contrary? I would LOVE to read what he posts, if he ever would/did/has just to know what the He** he's actually thinking and feeling.


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## snix11

"The message is in your face. It probably started off subtle, but you just did not hear it, so now it's gotten huge."

1. I'm not good enough for him and he wants to leave.
2. I'm too tall, too fat, too old, not the right color hair for him to feel sexual about.
3. He's now feeling guilty about using me for three years and wants to leave but feels torn because he will see himself as an a$$hole if he does. 
4. I'm ok as a roommate but he thinks i'm worthless as a woman.
5. I've done something horrible in the past that he feels I need to be treated like dirt for some period of time, say 10 years or so before he can allow himself to forgive me and move on. And I don't deserve to be told what that something is.
6. He's already met someone else and is just waiting/hoping for me to die so he can go be happy.

or WHAT??? ok, i know i'm stupid, but throw me a bone here Mark


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## snix11

he just now saw i was writing on a forum (here) and asked about the title "how to get the truth out of man" 

a few minutes later, he's hugging me and doing a slow dance in the room while the kids are wrassalin around us. 

I don't know if i'll ever find out what he's thinking!


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## Chopblock

---Chop - Ohhhh! There's an actual solution to this. Well, that's good to know. Care to share with the class an actual solution that doesn't make me a part time mom to my 10 month old baby?---

Despite my repeated and continued sharing of said solution with the class, you remain the only student who as of yet has not accepted the solution. Every other student here has arrived at the same solution -- you have hinted at it but not adopted it.

So perhaps this class is moving too quickly, and we should take a step back to kindergarten. I've composed this lovely limerick just for you.

There once was a woman named Snix
who succumbs to her husbands mean tricks.
She ignores his abuses
defends her excuses
and yet blowjobs are STILL in the mix?!?!!?!?!?!?

Now on to some other insights from other posters:

---From your last post, it appears hubby has promised you some time together. I wonder what you will do if he breaks that promise?---

She'll do the same thing she did ever other time... she will allow it without penalty. Perhaps some lip-service, a bit of pouting, but all he has to do is act "super nice" and "allow himself to be happy" and maybe even (reaching here) "promise not to do it again" and all will be well.

Perhaps we will play a little game. We will compose a snix timeline, with counts of how many times she has said things like "thats it" or "i'm giving him an ultimatum" and how many times he has redeemed himself, and so forth. As threads like this go on, sometimes its hard to remember where we started.


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## Chopblock

OK this will be in several parts:

Sept 25th, 2008: snix joins and posts original problem.

That same day, the first response advises getting the truth by what he DOES, not what he says. so what does he do...

Sept 27, post 9. Mark tells you to give him a Bj, but stop before he cums, and then just leave him be so he can feel the frustration. Really at this point, what have you got to lose?

sept 28, post 12: snix says she will stay if he treats her better and soon (does the months we've spent here, and however long this already went on count as soon?)

Snix also details how wonderful it was during dating (18 hours of on and off lovemaking, notes, dates, thoughtfulness).

Post 14: a great snix quote "Now will you PLEASE inform my husband what he's missing out on?". Hah! he isn't missing out on ANYTHING. He is getting everything he wants.

Post 20: snix explains their arguing, which details pretty much that she is treated as having no value.

Post 22: snix explains she is found attractive by other men, and details the futility of improving herself, as the husband doesn't care.

Post 25: snix describes the latest rejection and asks "His behavior tells me he's 'thru' with me. Or am I reading too much into it?" (a resounding yes)

Post 26: sabine tells it like it is.

Post 28: I join in.

Post 32: Snix says "he says he feels bad, but he doesn't DO anything about it".

Post 33: Snix admits to giving husband an ultimatum, and husband says "I want to go" Snix backpaddles. Dude... thats HUGE! Husband won't make up his mind, and snix puts up with it.

Post 36: I assert that the reason you are staying is cuz you want to, and re-assert that until he actually stands to lose something he values, that nothing will change.

Post 38: for some darn reason you say you are afraid that if you aren't available, he won't miss you at all. Yeah that may stink, but you will then be free to be loved by someone who actually WILL appreciate all these talents you say you have.

Ooooh oooh! Here is the the first appearance of "thats IT" and then the next day he is affectionate, and suddenly thats not it.


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## Chopblock

Part 2:

Post 43: Mark points out that the reason for your husband being nice is because he knows that you were getting close to kicking him out. Snix retorts with juvenile insults and sarcasm. (oh thank goodness I now only have to think things for him to realize them)

Post 46: snix cites the moving in, and excuses made by husband. Snix says both of them have esteem issues.

Post 55: I tell you that there is no barrier that can't be overcome by someone who wants success (as it relates to excuses like 'i work at home' or 'i'd lose custody of the baby')

Post 57: snix details the silly fights and rude things. Husband weasels out of their "us" time.

Post 60 (it is now october 7th). Snix says 'its time to maybe discuss him moving out'. We all know how that progressed...

Post 62: snix reiterates that husband DOES want to leave, and has wanted to leave for a while. Seriously... what gives here?

Post 65: hubby plays nice and snix is pacified.

Post 66: back to normal, husband treating snix like garbage. seriously... back to back posts on that one.

Post 76, Snix reiterates she wants the truth.

Post 81: snix defends husband, posting some warm words he wrote.

Post 83: I tell you about a friend of mine who was in the same position as you, who finally dumped the guy, and is happy as heck (with loads of sex).

Post 86: Snix reiterates her "I say 'thats IT' but then he does something sweet" situation. She asks again what to do, despite having been told several times.

Post 90, they actually have sex.

Thats all I can stand for tonight... maybe i'll continue later.


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## Chopblock

Part 3:

Posts 91-96 are about Mark's method, and snix saying the same "he was nice/he was mean" stuff.

Post 97: Husband may have tried to cheat with a redhead. Husband plays more hot/cold.

Post 99: Counselor tells you that you should try separation.

Post 100: re, the separation, Mark pretty much says "duh!"

Post 101: I return to the same old and am afraid that you will not even trust your own judgement.

Post 102: You "agree" with me that you are way too forgiving. You don't do anything about it, but let it be pointed out that you agree.

You also seem convinced for some darn reason that a separation will result in your losing a lot and/or not seeing your kids. In my opinion, the woman-friendly divorce laws and the EXTRA woman friendly child support laws, coupled with his incredibly ridiculous behavior (the marriage counselors can testify to this) would pretty much guarantee that you boot him out, he never sees the kids, and he has to pay YOU.

You also say maybe you'll wait until the baby is 3. That is years away.

Post 104: It is now November, and you are back to 'wait and see mode'.

Posts 105-106: Mark and I assert that you have allowed this to continue, and so it is indeed partly your fault. Allowing him to be nice and buy forgiveness rather than booting him out, and so forth.

109: snix's long long long long LONG letter.

111: I bet H doesn't read it -- just skims and quotes a few parts so snix thinks he's read it.

117: no change really.

120: I point out that you only get attention when you act hurt. That is not good.

121: back to old self. You say you'll wait til the baby is 3 again.

122: You say you'll give an ultimatum in January.

126: You say that you constantly initiate sex and get nothing in return. I have to point out that there are so many men out there who would love to have that kind of enthusiasm from their women. You are wasted on this guy.

129: I refute pretty much all of your "I'm done" statements. I reiterate how sad it is that so many men go to bed unfulfiled while a man like your husband gets rewarded for such horrible benavior.

140: Snix says she isn't sure she can do this for a few more months (yet earlier she said she'd wait a few more years).

143: Snix details yet another disappointment. It also seems like she has tried using a public scene to get her way, and husband is immune to that.

150: Snix brings up something that I now realize deserves WAYYYYYY more attention. In husbands previous 17 year marriage, husband go to be "the mom", and liked it. Now snix is "the mom" and husband feels displaced. Could that be a key we've overlooked?

152: now well into december. Husband is going to "give you what you want".

153: i am still floored that you use the phrase "we end up having sex, ie: I give him head" SERIOUSLY!!!!! WHYYYYYYYYYY

155: husband offers to give your date night away.

160: you say you are pretty much willing to go "very far".

165: I assert, AGAIN, that you ARE getting the truth via his actions.

168: Another "he's been nice on and off".

173: he screams "you just want me out of your house". He says he feels controlled. 

180s are a lot of snix lashing at us.

This is post 190, and it is now nearly the beginning of Jan 2009.

So there you are. Thats our journey. Where will it go next?


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## snix11

thanks for the synopsis 

While I don't disagree with most of what you have said - there are a few key points missing:

1. He's never been physically abusive. 
2. He's a good father and decent roommate
3. He says he cares for me, loves me (in his way, not mine) and that he wants me to be happy
4. Since Dec 2, he's really turned around and tried very hard to be more open, honest and affectionate. He still doesn't see me as a woman, and I doubt he ever will, but the honest affection is there now.
5. I'm still unhappy about the lack of sexual attention, but unsure how far I am willing to go to get it. Get a divorce just because of lack of sex? That seems rather selfish to me. 
6. Because I'm dealing with a rather strange legal case with my ex (not hubby) I cannot get divorced at the moment anyway. My ex is trying to get our Divorce of 2005 set aside and declare that we are still legally married (we never were in the first place) in order to get half of everything I have now (more than I had when we seperated in 2002) long story. 

So legally, i'm stuck here trying to make the best of things, like it or not till at least May. 

So my problem is not whether or not to kick him out (wouldn't that be easy?) but how to live with him till then and not go nuts. 

After the legal stuff with my ex is over, I've been informed I'm free to separate or whatever. My main goal in finding out why he decided to treat me like dirt is to keep it from happening in the future. If I am at fault for something, I would like to fix it in myself before I get into another relationship, know what I mean?

If I'm not at fault, at least knowing why he decided to suddenly treat me like a 'thing' and not a woman would be nice to know.

Would it be wonderful if we could find out why he no longer loves me, wants me or needs me - work thru that issue, fall in love again and live happily ever after? sure it would. But the last year has showed me there is no such thing as happy endings.


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## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> My main goal in finding out why he decided to treat me like dirt is to keep it from happening in the future. If I am at fault for something, I would like to fix it in myself before I get into another relationship, know what I mean?
> 
> If I'm not at fault, at least knowing why he decided to suddenly treat me like a 'thing' and not a woman would be nice to know.
> 
> Would it be wonderful if we could find out why he no longer loves me, wants me or needs me - work thru that issue, fall in love again and live happily ever after? sure it would. But the last year has showed me there is no such thing as happy endings.


Please read you own words above really slowly. The way I see it, your main problem is in thinking your desire to find out is your main problem.

That is not your main problem from my point of view. However, it is your main preoccupation. I feel that by constantly asking the impossible of life, you're being Prometheus chained to a rock while his liver is pecked out each night by an eagle, only to have it grow back again every day...

Why not just accept that he is rather difficult, and get on with the business of dealing with the utmost integrity towards yourself and all others in the situation.

You are desperate to have the answer to your question... but even if you had it, would it help? Even if you had done something terrible, no reasonable man would put you through this. He is as Dr. Tracy says, a broken popcorn machine:

"Ask Dr. Tracy" Love Library

I would hate to see you as an old lady, still trying to solve this riddle, when you could have spent your time in a more joyful way. Somewhere within you, there must be the wisdom to reach within and find the answer. Not the answer to the your question "How to get the Truth out of Man...", but th2at answer to a different question: "How to deal with such a man?"

As a wise man once told me, the "why" will hang you up every time.


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## snix11

ok fine. 

How do i deal with the next 5-6 months of living with a kind roommate while going thru this nonsense with my ex until such time as I have leave to worry about my wants and needs again?


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## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> ok fine.
> 
> How do i deal with the next 5-6 months of living with a kind roommate while going thru this nonsense with my ex until such time as I have leave to worry about my wants and needs again?


If you work on yourself, and improve your self-worth, your husband will start treating you differently anyway. The next 6 months are what you make them.

But one thing that comes across from what you have written so far, is that he always behaves better when you are firm.


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## snix11

Sigh. That puts me in the 'controlling, manipulative bit*h' role tho, doesn't it?

Besides, who wants a man they have to 'be firm' with all the time to get them to pay attention to them, or love them? blech. 

I did mean what I said, As of Jan 1, I will no longer be working on 'us'. No, I can't move out or get him to for now. Obviously i'm not going to have any sex (dangit) but I'll keep busy spending the time working on me and doing things without him. Basically growing apart.

The more I work on myself worth, the more I end up despising him for what he has done and continues to do to me. I think part of my not wanting to go there was to see if he could/would change so that we could be together again. I did NOT want to end up despising him.

I realize that might bring him 'back' to me again. but I also realize that after all this time, even if he does want me again, I won't want him. I've got so much resentment and anger built up around being rejected and treated like dirt for all this time, I no longer want him. 

I used to look at him and see a devastatingly handsome, gorgeous loving man who i was totally in love with and in lust with. Now I see a balding, short, toothless, mean spirited wimp who I could take or leave. I don't hate him. But then love and hate are more similar than most people believe. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference.

I realized last night, that I haven't even tried to give him a hug, rub his back (which i did for years every night) or even get him a cup of coffee in weeks, maybe months. and i have no desire to do so. 

we are plenty polite, but if he wants anything more than that, he has to do it. Even then, i'll accept, but I don't dare hope for more or return the kindness. I'm done being forward, or giving, or loving. I guess I gave up a while ago.


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## snix11

Grrrrr... 

Teen (his) just stole my credit card AGAIN and spend my money. He does nothing but ask the kid to pay back the money. Kid sauters in and drops a few bucks on my desk and walks away smiling. 

Grrrrrrrr


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## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> Sigh. That puts me in the 'controlling, manipulative bit*h' role tho, doesn't it?
> 
> Besides, who wants a man they have to 'be firm' with all the time to get them to pay attention to them, or love them? blech.


Are you deliberately misunderstanding me?

I mean firm as in setting boundaries and sticking to them. Like in the link I posted a few pages back. As in treating yourself with respect, and expecting the same from others. 



> Grrrrr...
> 
> Teen (his) just stole my credit card AGAIN and spend my money. He does nothing but ask the kid to pay back the money. Kid sauters in and drops a few bucks on my desk and walks away smiling.
> 
> Grrrrrrrr


So you leave out your credit card to be abused?

I'm sorry, but you have "victim" written all over you. Is it due to your upbringing? Please, doooooo something.

This is *how* your husband gets way with his treatment of you. You have post-it notes pinned all over your ass saying "hit me".


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## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> 6. Because I'm dealing with a rather strange legal case with my ex (not hubby) I cannot get divorced at the moment anyway. My ex is trying to get our Divorce of 2005 set aside and declare that we are still legally married (we never were in the first place) in order to get half of everything I have now (more than I had when we seperated in 2002) long story.


Out of interest, were there similarities in this relationship?


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## snix11

Mark, the credit card was in my PURSE in my DESK drawer. You call this leaving it out??

Similarities in the relationships:

1. Both male
2. Both had previous relationships - not many 40 yr old virgins out there
3. Both had dark hair (I prefer brunettes)
4. Both had a background in martial arts
5. Neither were in the military
6. Both were good with computers (I have a thing for geeks)
7. Both drove cars well
8. Both knew how to shoot
9. Both very 'male' men - no metrosexuals
10. Both impressed by my brain, background and education
11. Met them both on the web
12. Had an email / chat relationship before we met in person
13. Tried marriage counseling with both when things got rocky
14. Both 'fell in love' with me within a few days of us having sex for the first time. 

Differences 

EX

1. Taller than me
2. Green eyes
3. physically abusive
4. lied about his past
5. didn't have any kids before we met
6. was into things i wasn't sexually - watersports, pain, very young teen girls (didn't find this out till later)
7. sexually molested my retarded daughter (why we split up)
8. didn't work while we were together
9. explosive temper all the time
10. constantly abusive to the kids
11. Very protective at first, turned into completely controlling
12. no friends or family
13. Was from another state
14. Had a long distance relationship for months before we met in person
15. had sex on the first physical date


New Guy

1. Eagle scout
2. shorter than me
3. brown eyes
4. told the truth about his past
5. supported his two kids on his own before he met me
6. sexually compatible interests
7. great father I trust with the kids
8. sulks and shuts down rather than explodes when angry
9. spiritual rather than religious (compatible religious views with mine)
10. Good sense of humor
11. Liked to have fun
12. Large network of friends and family
13. Not possessive at all since w 'fell apart' but had a healthy sense of 'she's my girl' without being controlling before.
14. lived in same state as me
15. dated for a long time before we had sex
16. noticed the chemistry first time we met in person
17. talked on the phone for hours every night before we met in person for almost six months.

So some similarities, but also major differences.


----------



## snix11

I don't go into these relationships feeling like a victim. But yes, somehow, while bending over backwards trying to make it work, it gets to be that way. 

Now, hubby will tell you a completely different story i'm sure. That i'm the abusive one, i'm the controlling one. I always control him. (won't tell me how) etc. 

If I am, I sure don't see it and he won't share with me how, so screw it.

The good news - it's the end of the year!!!! one more evening of really trying to make things work, then i get parole 

Tomorrow - I get my freedom. What does this mean?

1. I quit trying to patch up this relationship
2. I quit being accommodating
3. I start going out on my own, having fun and doing my own thing
4. I stop saying I'm sorry and trying to be the one to patch it up every time we argue
5. No more sex - not that he has or will ever initiate it
6. No more backrubs, no more coffee, no more going out of my way for him
7. No more bailing him out of his financial problems
8. Take him off my credit cards, bank accounts etc
9. Figure out somewhere else for him to sleep
10. Refer him to my long letter if he has questions
11. Hide my emotions from him and find someone else to talk to when I'm upset, scared, happy, excited, bored

Live my own life. He may be parallel for a while, but that's his choice. 

Not sure what i'm going to tell the kids yet, but i'll figure it out. I tried, or at least i feel like i really did. But I can't make this work alone. I want to be loved, cherished, wanted, and told and shown that often!


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## StrongEnough

snix11 said:


> I don't go into these relationships feeling like a victim. But yes, somehow, while bending over backwards trying to make it work, it gets to be that way.
> 
> Now, hubby will tell you a completely different story i'm sure. That i'm the abusive one, i'm the controlling one. I always control him. (won't tell me how) etc.
> 
> If I am, I sure don't see it and he won't share with me how, so screw it.
> 
> The good news - it's the end of the year!!!! one more evening of really trying to make things work, then i get parole
> 
> Tomorrow - I get my freedom. What does this mean?
> 
> 1. I quit trying to patch up this relationship
> 2. I quit being accommodating
> 3. I start going out on my own, having fun and doing my own thing
> 4. I stop saying I'm sorry and trying to be the one to patch it up every time we argue
> 5. No more sex - not that he has or will ever initiate it
> 6. No more backrubs, no more coffee, no more going out of my way for him
> 7. No more bailing him out of his financial problems
> 8. Take him off my credit cards, bank accounts etc
> 9. Figure out somewhere else for him to sleep
> 10. Refer him to my long letter if he has questions
> 11. Hide my emotions from him and find someone else to talk to when I'm upset, scared, happy, excited, bored
> 
> Live my own life. He may be parallel for a while, but that's his choice.
> 
> Not sure what i'm going to tell the kids yet, but i'll figure it out. I tried, or at least i feel like i really did. But I can't make this work alone. I want to be loved, cherished, wanted, and told and shown that often!


Have you considered individual counseling for yourself? This might help you to begin to work through some issues and start to heal.


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## snix11

As an aside. 

Yesterday, he and I got into another argument. I found myself at one point, crying and begging him to please tell me how I could be better. 

Prequel - 5am. i'm up and worried about my future, these lawsuits, money and such. he groggily asks me why i'm up. "honey, why are you up so early?" 

i'm worried and scared. but i'm working out some solutions, ok?

why are you worried honey? (sounds nice and caring huh?)

because we are running out of money, if i don't have enough to fight these lawsuits i may lose by default, and a host of other problems. frankly i feel very scared and alone right now. I'm going over my options.

well what are your options? 

I start to tell him and he gets out of bed and wanders off in the middle of my sentence and leaves the room. just totally ignores me. I got PISSED off. why ask me if he's just going to leave and not listen?? I didn't say anything but i was fuming.

he comes back into the room and says 'so, figured out your silly little problems yet?' 

I don't say anything. I'm too mad to say anything nice.

he gets up and puts on his pants in a huff. Why do you always have to bring me this S*** right when I wake up? 

you asked what was wrong? why ignore me when i try to tell you?

a little while later he comes up and gives me a hug and a kiss on top of my head and says 'don't worry, everything will be ok' 

I say 'how do you figure that?'

He doesn't say anything to that, just stomps off in a huff and refuses to go to work, spending his time smoking and reading his novel. 

several hours later - i get done with my work and come in to try and make amends.

Honey, i'm sorry if i upset you today. i'll try and keep my problems to myself. I admitted my faults in the problem and said i was sorry. can we talk about it?

him - why should i? why bother? when you are in one of your black moods, i've learned just to stay away from you. why do you always have to attack me? 

me - "what? how did i attack you? I don't hear that what I said this morning was attacking you. i thought you asked me what was wrong and i was trying to tell you. but then you really hurt my feelings when you wandered off when i was telling you. what words did i say that you took as an attack?"

Him - "it wasn't what you said, it was how you said it and your body language. you were attacking me, just admit it"

me - "I was upset, this is true, but i wasn't thinking it was your fault or anything. I had a problem and when you asked what was wrong i was trying to tell you. what part of my tone or body language did you take that way? I am truly sorry if i hurt your feelings, but please understand it was unintentional. Can you see how this might be a misunderstanding? How can I make it up to you?"

Him - it doesn't matter what i say, you won't do it. 

me - can you try? please? I promise to try and change, but i don't know what you want from me.

Him - you know what you need to do, just do it. 

me - no, i don't or i wouldn't ask! How can you say i'm the controlling one when you tell me things like that? Please just tell me how i can talk to you so you don't feel attacked.

him - grabs paper and writes down the date and time. "look. it's 1035. you won't stop being a ***** for more than a minute. you'll see. here's what I want you to do and like always you won't do it"

me - ignoring the jabs - ok, what do you want me to do? I'd appreciate it if you would write it down so i don't misinterpret it. 

him - oh hell no. i'm not writing down a F-ing thing. you'd better just remember it right the first time. 

me - do you mind if i write it down then?

him - be my guest, you'll just twist it around again. throws the notebook and pen at me. 

"whenever you are emotional, say 'honey, i'm too emotional right now to talk like a reasonable person. i'll tell you what's wrong when i calm down and can be rational. i don't care if i ask you whats wrong, you better not tell me. and don't talk to me unless you are ready to be unemotional and rational. got that?"

me - I think so. it sounds like when i'm upset and you ask me what's wrong, i'm to tell you that i'm upset and will talk about it when i calm down, right? that even if you ask me what's wrong, i'm not supposed to tell you? 

him - GOD. there you go again! no wonder i don't talk to you. 

me - what part did i get wrong?

him - all of it. like always. 

me - i'm sorry you see it that way. can you please tell me in another way so i can get it? i tried to write down exactly what you said but...

him - interrupting - but you had to make it sound like i'm the a-hole again like usual. just don't even talk to me again. 

me - i'm sorry. i'm not sure what i did. 

him - just get away from me. 

me - ok. 

later, one of my friends called - an ex boy friend from six years ago. Hubby knew all about him from the start - he and his wife and kids come over sometimes and Hubby was buying a pistol from him and they shoot together when they come to visit. 

he noticed i sounded upset and asked what was wrong. i said i was having an awful day and told him about the legal stuff. he knew about most of it as hubby had told him a few days ago when he was here. we talked about it and he was a great sounding board and had some good ideas. he didn't say anything about me being irrational or anything like that. just a friend listening to another one talk. I told him i really appreciated having someone to talk to, and how nice it was to have a friend i could talk to. he got me laughing and happy again and feeling ok about things. 

when i got off the phone, hubby came in from the other room and hugged me and asked me if i hated him. (what??) i said no, i don't hate you. he said he was sorry we fought. I said, yeah me too. 

then he wandered off. jealous? worried? who knows. I tried to spend time with him last night, but he blew me off.


----------



## MarkTwain

snix11-

You are in serious trouble. Everything I have told you about self esteem has been wasted. If you don't get some help soon, I fear for your welfare and your children's welfare.

His accusing you of being irrational is destroying you. I don't know if he is doing deliberately, or if he is just psychotic.

I have asked you 3 times: is he taking amphetamines or coke?

You need a friend and also a professional. The only irrational thing you are doing is letting him call you irrational and allowing him to get away with it.


----------



## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> Mark, the credit card was in my PURSE in my DESK drawer. You call this leaving it out??


If you let it happen again, YES.

Your household is like a war zone on the inside. When someone is facing difficulties like you are - all that legal and financial stuff - you need everyone around you to pull together. If you are being undermined from the inside, you will fail eventually. 

Do you have and friend that live near you? Good sane friends, that will not automatically take his side?


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## StrongEnough

I wonder what makes you want to stay in this marriage.


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## snix11

So, now with the new year looming... what does putting my foot down look like?

some rules - 

1. I will not kick him out of the house (I promised him that)
2. I don't want to be *****y
3. I will not nag or complain
4. I want to make it clear that I don't want to be treated like dirt - 

What do I do when 

1. he says 'good morning dear'
2. when he tries to peck me on the cheek when he leaves
3. when he asks if i want something from the store

How do I make it clear I don't want his affection left overs and crumbs without sounding like i'm being a *****?

push him away if he tries to hug or kiss me? 
tell him i don't want his affection - even tho that's what i've been telling him for months?

how do i do this?

I want him to move out of our bed, but not sure how to bring it up so he hears me.


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## snix11

MarkTwain said:


> snix11-
> 
> I have asked you 3 times: is he taking amphetamines or coke?


I know i've told you at least once - NO



> Do you have and friend that live near you? Good sane friends, that will not automatically take his side?


As I've said before, no. no friends, no family. nobody but me and the kids. If I had somewhere to run to before this, don't you think i would have gone??



> I wonder what makes you want to stay in this marriage.


I really wanted to try and make it work. I really wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt and see if it was really me that was wrong. I wanted to not be a part time mom to our kids.

Right now, with my ex trying to get our 2005 divorce set aside, I cannot risk another 'divorce' of any kind. It may be months before that nonsense is over and I can do something legally about this nonsense. 

I'm almost afraid to make enough waves (put my foot down) in case he leaves or causes me even MORE legal trouble.

But darnit, I can't keep living like this!


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## snix11

The hardest part in all this is protecting myself. 

I love(d) him SO damn much, that I want to make it right. 

But he's let me know he doesn't love me. 
I even asked him " do you love me" he won't answer. 
If i say 'You don't love me" 
he says 'I didn't say that"
so I ask "do you?" he won't answer. 

screw that psycobabble bs


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## Chelhxi

snix11 said:


> several hours later - i get done with my work and come in to try and make amends.
> 
> Honey, i'm sorry if i upset you today. i'll try and keep my problems to myself. I admitted my faults in the problem and said i was sorry. can we talk about it?


I know this has been beaten to death, but why WHY would you apologize to him when he was the one doing hurtful things to you? Why are you apologizing to him when he walked away in the middle of a conversation?

I pretty much never apologize to my husband. If we have a misunderstanding or my feelings are hurt, I don't apologize for feeling how I feel. Unless I intentionally do something to hurt him there's nothing to apologize for.

I just don't get how you can't see this in your own posts. See how every action leads to the opposite action of what an emotionally normal person would do. If you read it over like a novel, happening to somebody else, what would you think?


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## MsStacy

:iagree:

I've been following your posts all along and I think you are just too close to your situation to see anything that is happening clearly. Many posters have tried to offer some clarity but you are stuck in a loop.

I understand your legal troubles mean that you need to continue living with H until that is resolved. He is not treating you as a wife. He is no longer a loving husband (or behaving like any type of *husband*). You are not being honored, cherished, loved, RESPECTED or treated with any compassion at all. Detach yourself. Stop begging him. Stop asking for ANYTHING! Live as though he is a roommate. BECOME HIS ROOMMATE! No asking for anything, no trying to fix anything and no sex! I know that is a biggie for you. Try it. See what happens (it certainly won't hurt anything). Either you will have some time to work on you and finally realize that you deserve so much better, or he will realize that he misses you and maybe he will start trying to work on things. What do you have to lose?

And during this time that you have to work on yourself... get out, make some friends, join a book club/gym/mothers group, whatever. Just get yourself out there and you will find some support. Find some hobbies or get back into some. Do not rely on him for anything that pertains to you. He can be your co-parent. He has already proven and told you time and time again he is not your friend/lover/companion. Exactly what you said before....no more coffee, backrubs, financial help, etc. He pays his bills, you pay yours, you both take care of your children. DISTANCE!

As for the teenager/money issues....if my H didn't stand up for me and the money to his teen...wow...I can't even imagine it. CUT HIM OFF! No more credit cards for H, no more joint accounts, no more "couple" stuff. He's now your roommate.

DISTANCE! ROOMMATE! DON'T ASK HIM FOR ANYTHING! AND ABSOLUTELY *DO NOT* APOLOGIZE! When was the last time he aplogized to you?


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## snix11

Last time he apologized to me was yesterday. 

He came up, gave me a big hug and kiss and told me he was sorry we had an argument. I said that it was ok, he didn't need to apologize as he didn't do anything wrong (his words during the fight) and he walked off. I basically rejected his apology. 

He came up three minutes later and tried it again. Again, I rejected his apology. You could tell he was frustrated and angry that I didn't accept his apology. 

Notice he didn't say he was sorry for anything HE did, just that we had an argument. That still leaves it in the realm of 'i'm sorry you are such a $*#(# that we had an argument. Not good enough for me, thanks.


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## snix11

No sex won't be a problem, as I'm the ONLY one that initiates sex any more. 

He'll notice when he asks to help me and I say no. He likes to feel 'useful'. 

I'm trying to figure out how to get him out of my bed right now.

If and when i take a man to my bed, I expect him to want me, love me, cherish me, play with me, flirt with me, and have sex with me. I expect him to tell me and show me these things often and well!

Right now, he feels that he's entitled to be in my bed because he's my roommate. I'm no longer comfortable with that. He will get pissed off if i kick him out of the bed, but oh well. 

I'm just trying to figure out how to do that in such a way as I get some healthy boundaries but not upset him so much he blows up and tries to ruin me. it's a pretty delicate situation right now.


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## snix11

> I know this has been beaten to death, but why WHY would you apologize to him when he was the one doing hurtful things to you? Why are you apologizing to him when he walked away in the middle of a conversation?
> 
> I pretty much never apologize to my husband. If we have a misunderstanding or my feelings are hurt, I don't apologize for feeling how I feel. Unless I intentionally do something to hurt him there's nothing to apologize for.
> 
> I just don't get how you can't see this in your own posts. See how every action leads to the opposite action of what an emotionally normal person would do. If you read it over like a novel, happening to somebody else, what would you think?


I apologized because I was told by the marriage counselor that it doesn't matter WHO initiates the apology, just that a loving dialog is opened. 

To an extent, I agree with that. I didn't apologize for him hurting me, just for my part in the problem. I was snippy and snide and very angry when he was rude to me. I had a choice of how to react. I could have done several other things to smooth things over, but I was hurt and reacted in a negative way. 

In a normal, healthy relationship - when one person gets hurt by another's actions, I see nothing wrong in going and saying - honey, you really hurt my feelings back there, can we talk about it?

Hopefully, with enough good communication, that kind of hurt wouldn't happen. But it's bound to happen some times. 

Would that I was loved enough and secure enough that I didn't HAVE to be the one to apologize. would that I could play the role of the typical female - chased and the quarry. Where the man is the hunter and I am the desired prey. 

In that instance, the female is revered for her gifts - usually revolving around giving him sex - and he gladly does all these things to get it. Loves her, showers her with gifts, praise, ardor etc. She remains haughty (I pretty much NEVER apologize to my husband) being a very good example. If you are the one who is desired, you don't need to apologize to get the reaction you want - love, desire, sex, etc. 

But in my situation, the dynamic is all screwed up. I'm not pursued by the male, he's not acting like a man 'should'. I'm rejected by him and seen as unworthy of the male 'attention'. 

Reversing the roles doesn't help. Me pursuing him just leaves him feeling emasculated and me feeling un-cherished and un-desired. Frankly, I deserve better.

When I read over my posts like a novel I see a woman who is bending over backwards, over and over to try and get thru to the man she fell in love with. I see her changing, over and over to meet what he says are his needs. I see him shutting her out. I see him neglecting her, being deliberately cruel to her mostly thru inaction then blaming her for it covertly. 

I see that she tries, over and over to give him chances to 'cut it out' but that he doesn't. 

I see her know she wants and needs change but unsure how to get it. I see her trying to rekindle the sex life and him rejecting her advances. 

Finally I see her say 'ok, i'm done' and trying to figure out the messy business of untangling herself from this mess without being afforded the usual and customary method of just 'cutting the ties that bind' by kicking him and his kids out and starting over.

Somehow, someway - I need to be able to set healthy limits without causing any MORE legal troubles. Not an easy task. 

I want him out of my bed. I don't sleep with my roommates. He feels the bed is half his as my roommate. Not sure how to deal with that. But I will NEVER get my worth back as a woman - male pursues woman for sex - if I have a lazy selfish ex lover taking up the real estate in my bed.

The rest of it is fairly easy. It will require alot of monetary changes, as right now we work in the same business from home - and share expenses that way rather than paying ourselves a salary.


----------



## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> I want him out of my bed. I don't sleep with my roommates. He feels the bed is half his as my roommate. Not sure how to deal with that. But I will NEVER get my worth back as a woman - male pursues woman for sex - if I have a lazy selfish ex lover taking up the real estate in my bed.


Finally, the light comes on  

Personally, I would never share a bed with someone who did not want sex with me.


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## snix11

yes, i'm sure tonights edict of 'get the hell out of my bed since you don't want sex' will go over so well (gads)


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## snix11

as he's already pissed off at me and not talking to me, the retort should be short and surly.


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## snix11

what an interesting night. More fights, more arguments, more bs. 

Finally, I told him - look, i'm sick of fighting you for YOU. Either we go upstairs, now, get undressed, lay in bed and hug each other and start really TALKING or I'm outta here. Those weren't my exact words, but that was the idea. 

Well, he did it. I said we need to do this for a week, at least, then re-evaluate. 

Found out alot of things. 

1. He's pissed because he thinks i've been snooping on his pc. I have and told him so. No, i'm not sorry I did it. I asked him about the redheaded thing. He said some men look at Ferrari's, he looks at redheads. Doesn't mean anything. Hmmmm. I'll take that under advisement.

2. He's depressed about his libido. He has no idea why he doesn't want sex any more. He doesn't even masturbate anymore. When we were dating, he did several times a week, and we still had sex 3x a day. Now he says even looking at the girls on the internet doesn't do it for him. It's not physical, but he doesn't know what it is.

3. He's depressed because he hurt his knee and thinks he'll never be able to play his sport again. his words "I can't fuc*, I can't fight... what's the use?"

sigh... long road ahead.


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## MarkTwain

Well...
Semen retention would fix his libido at least.


----------



## snix11

Mark, I'm still willing to try that. He's not so convinced. 

He initiated sex last night, and it was amazing. he was attentive, on, there was actual foreplay. He came too soon, but that's normal and I don't stress over it much. 

He worries about that much more than I do. But last night, I asked him to help me come after he did and he was willing to do so. 

We'll see.


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## MarkTwain

Although there are no hard and fast rules, men should generally make a woman come first before themselves, because once a man has come, there is no sexual charge there for him. Whereas by getting you to cum first, your orgasm is "out of the way" and he can come in his own time. This often has the perverse effect of making the man last longer, because there is no pressure to perform or last longer.

A lot of guys are happy to make their woman cum after coitus, so there is no problem. But there are many men who loose all interest after their own orgasm. These selfish men can be led by their dix simply by making them do their "duty" first - or it's no dice baby 

They may complain, but not for long.

Keep up the new firmness - it obviously seems to be working.


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## snix11

He is def on the 'lose interest after orgasm type.' we'll work on that.

On a better note, we actually managed to talk last night. I think we've turned a corner. and in a good way 

I had to 'get his attention' again with firmness - not my preferred method. but once i hit him over the head with the verbal frying pan, he's 'awake' and i can tell him what i need to. worked, so i'm not complaining.

He even said he loved me. Could have knocked me over with a feather!


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## Chopblock

I'm genuinely insulted! I spent over an hour summarizing this agonizing journey, and I even made up a cool limerick, and all I get is a "thats nice, but".

You will ALWAYS have a "but", won't you. There will always be a reason why you can't do this or can't do that.

Lets take your current list of excuses:

1. He's never been physically abusive. (He HAS, however been mentally and emotionally abusive).

2. He's a good father and decent roommate (for the level of sex you say you'll provide, as well as the other nice things you do, I bet 95% of men out there would be superb fathers and roommates)

3. He says he cares for me, loves me (in his way, not mine) and that he wants me to be happy (are you happy snix?)

4. Since Dec 2, he's really turned around and tried very hard to be more open, honest and affectionate. He still doesn't see me as a woman, and I doubt he ever will, but the honest affection is there now. (just like it happened the last 2 times)

5. I'm still unhappy about the lack of sexual attention, but unsure how far I am willing to go to get it. Get a divorce just because of lack of sex? That seems rather selfish to me. (on the contrary, Selfish is WITHHOLDING something you KNOW your partner craves. I have often said that it is unfair that a cheater gets told off, but the partner who withheld and starved her spouse for months/years gets off blameless)

6. Because I'm dealing with a rather strange legal case with my ex (not hubby) I cannot get divorced at the moment anyway. My ex is trying to get our Divorce of 2005 set aside and declare that we are still legally married (we never were in the first place) in order to get half of everything I have now (more than I had when we seperated in 2002) long story. (I find it EXTREMELY suspicious that this detail has only come up now).

I also want to know how that one ended, and why?

---How do i deal with the next 5-6 months of living with a kind roommate while going thru this nonsense with my ex until such time as I have leave to worry about my wants and needs again?---

You kick him out! You can be married and live separately. Don't bother giving us any "I can't afford it" excuses, because if you DO divorce him, you will need to be on your own a while anyway.

---Are you deliberately misunderstanding me?---

I submit the possibility that snix is perfectly happy exactly where she is. She gets to play the victim and troll up sympathies, all the while finding reasons why advice won't work for her.


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## Chopblock

---I will not kick him out of the house (I promised him that)---

Geez... you don't need him to undermine you, as you undermine yourself!

---I want to make it clear that I don't want to be treated like dirt ----

No you don't. You WANT to be treated like dirt. If you TRULY did not want to be treaed like dirt, you would not ALLOW him to treat you like dirt using one of the many suggestions made to you.

You constantly ask (or reword) questions that have already been answered, and you ignore the answers you know to be true because you hope that someone will offer some magic word that will fix everything instantly. You use insignificant details to mask the true problems. For example:

What do I do when

1. he says 'good morning dear' (it doesn't matter)
2. when he tries to peck me on the cheek when he leaves (it doesn't matter)
3. when he asks if i want something from the store (it doesn't matter)

Because all of the above are petty insignificant details compared to the full magnitue of what is really going on in your house.

Not only that, every single one of these problems can be solved by booting him OUT!

---I know i've told you at least once - NO---

Well gee snix... you ask US the same questions over and over when you don't believe the answer you receive. Surely you won't deny us the same privilege? Then again, you live with double-standards every day...

As far as the bed thing... bring another dude home tonight! That will kill 2 birds with one stone.

---I'm just trying to figure out how to do that in such a way as I get some healthy boundaries but not upset him so much he blows up and tries to ruin me. it's a pretty delicate situation right now.---

Its very kind (doormat kind) of you to consider HIS feelings in this matter, when he has done nothing to address the lack of sex that you have complained to him about for 3+ months. It is also proof that you are not "done" and you have already blown your Jan 1st resolution (and at 5:47 AM!!!!!)


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## Chopblock

OK, I'm happy that things (for now) seem to be going well (as they have in the past when he changes moods).

I have to point out that this may just be the latest in a string of manipulation.

---I had to 'get his attention' again with firmness - not my preferred method. but once i hit him over the head with the verbal frying pan, he's 'awake' and i can tell him what i need to. worked, so i'm not complaining.---

I also have to point out (as has been said) that you are getting results BECAUSE you are being firm. 

Think of it this way, just like YOU are expecting him to believe that him cumming a bit early is not a big deal (it seems unbelievable to him, but you know it to be true), is EXACTLY like US telling YOU to believe that being firm does NOT make you a negative B (which seems obvious to us, but YOU don't think so). 

There is nothing wrong with being firm, especially after what you have been through.


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## MarkTwain

snix11 said:


> I had to 'get his attention' again with firmness - not my preferred method. but once i hit him over the head with the verbal frying pan, he's 'awake' and i can tell him what i need to. worked, so i'm not complaining.


This is to be expected. Firmness always works. When you find something that works, keep doing it, get better at it, and do it some more. Then do it again just for *Chopbloc* & me 

I'm really glad it's going better. Press home your advantage and keep going.


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## snix11

Last night was good too, as was yesterday. Our UA time was going out 'adventuring' as we call it. We ended up repo'ing a truck that an acquaintance had agreed to buy and make payments on and was hiding it after not making payments for over 8 months.

No problems, no fights. And I still go over in my mind from the other night when we told each other what we liked about each other. I still hear him telling me he likes my hair 

Yeah, girls are weird that way, we like to be told we are liked in some way 

Hardships personally and in the family, but nothing we can't weather together if we love each other.


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## MarkTwain

Sounding much better. 

Just remember to be firm at the first sign of flagging.


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## snix11

Yeah. I realize that. 

What I'm trying for - or at least thinking about now is what I'm calling 

Stage 2...

Basically where I don't have to 'force' him to spend time with me, be nice to me, have sex with me. 

Where somehow he does these things because he is attracted to me on his own - that I am somehow enticing him, irrisestible to him. 

THat's what I miss most in our relationship - being pursued. Physically, sexually, mentally and spiritually. Having him WANT to know what I'm thinking, feeling and wanting.

How on earth do I get there? Some ideas I've been playing with:

1. Play hard to get.
2. Make him jealous
3. Other

I don't like the first two - number one will probably backfire considering our recent just now getting along status. Making him jealous just seems smarmy to me. 

Other? If your spouse didn't desire you - Either sexually or just to be around what would you do? How would you feel? They like you well enough, get along ok but there is no desire in them to discover you, or pursue you or be interested in you. Whaddaya do?


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## MarkTwain

snix11-

Most men complain their wives never chase them or initiate sex often enough even if they are happy to do it when asked. I think you are unlikely to get him chasing you at the moment, and to focus on the lack of it will just make you sad.

If you can get him practising semen retention, he will eventually chase you all round the house for sex. In order to achieve this state, he needs to become regularly sexually aroused without ejaculation. After two weeks, he will get very horny indeed. I have re-jigged my articles: Semen Retention


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## snix11

well... i'll start trying that again. Will keep you posted. The biggest problem I see is that he doesn't WANT sex. at all. so getting him hard and horny he'll see as 'controlling him' and 'manipulation' etc.

I'll bring it up as an experiment and see what he says.


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## digimix

Your husband needs to beaten with an iron pole! Watching porn in front of you simply says that he does not care for you. Having you give BJ and not giving you anything at all is just wicked and selfish. I have never recommended leaving a spouse before but this case comes pretty close to it. You need to hold him by the balls (with a knife in the other hand) when he is watching porn and give him the ultimatum.....it's you or the redhead!!!!


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## Chopblock

News flash.... you ARE trying to control/manipulate his actions. You are going to use a tactic on him with the intended result of changing his behavior. That is the definition of control/manipulation.

I'm not saying not to do it, and I'm not saying it won't work. I'm just saying that he probably will see it (to some degree) as what it really is, so don't bother telling him 'I'm not trying to control you' even if you don't intend to be as negative as he makes it seem.


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## snix11

Don't worry. I won't. 

Eleven times tonight I showed him love and tenderness. 
Eleven times tonight he showed me nothing but coldness and disdain.

After yelling and SCREAMING at me for months about how it's always "my way or the highway" despite anything I have said, tonight he DEMANDED I come home immediately or ELSE. 

He always complains loudest what he hates in himself. I wonder how old he will be and how many good women he will crush before he sees that? 

He had run off slamming doors and running out of the house at 1am (yet again) Long story there - I won't bore you with details unless someone is feeling morbid. It amounts to him not keeping his promises, me calling him on it and him blowing up.

I needed to get the baby some medicine and warm clothes. I asked my teen to watch him, but said teen refused. The baby was still awake and fussy at 1am (maybe because dad was screaming so much??) so I bundled him up and took him to walmart. The house doesn't have heat right now except for two little space heaters. Huge drafty house. It was thankfully WARM in wal-mart. I got the medicine, some warm socks for the baby, a new sleeper (he had grown out of the old one) and another warm hat for him. I hoped that driving him around in the car might settle him down. I've done this with all my kids when they were little and feeling poorly and it seemed to work. Plus the dang car was heated!

Right when i arrived at wal-mart he called my cell phone and demanded I come right back that INSTANT. He was hysterical. I couldn't believe what I was hearing from him. Still, I figured, stay calm. I said I was at wal-mart getting clothes and then I was going to try and drive around a little to get him to sleep. He EXPLODED on me - calling me the worst kinds of names, telling me how awful i was to take him out in the cold, etc etc. accusded me of kidnapping my own son - basically claiming i was killing the kid to wrap him warmly in blankets and take him out to get medicine because HE had run off and there was nobody else to watch him. 

I told him I had tried to get someone to watch him, but there wasn't anyone else and HE had run off. He didn't like hearing that one bit.

I tried to reason with him, to no avail. He was convinced there was NO excuse for buying the baby warm clothes, socks and medicine. I had no RIGHT to go do that. "taking a SICK child out in the COLD.... etc." well heck, the car and wal-mart were warmer than the house and he was bundled up in blankets to boot! I felt I had done everything I could under the circumstances. He became more and more irrational, almost begging me to bring him home, then in the next sentence demanding I bring him home or he'd call the cops. I mean it was weird, even for him. I've never seen him this hysterical. 

I asked him to calm down and call me back when he could talk rationally and hung up so I could finish shopping. When I got back to the car 15 mins later, I called him back and asked calmly if he was feeling better and wanted to talk about it. Surely he was over his fit by now? nope. Again, accusing me, yelling at me, calling me names, etc. He had totally lost it. I had better come home RIGHT THAT DAMN INSTANT OR ELSE... etc. That I had never SEEN nor could I IMAGINE the RAGE he would bring down on me... etc etc. I said that he sounded really irrational and I was thinking about getting a hotel room for the evening to give him a chance to calm down and get the baby to sleep where it was warm. I told him I would call him when I got there and he was welcome to come over. Still he screamed at me. You had BETTER.. RIGHT NOW... etc. 

I tried to tell him that the baby was finally settling down, that if I could drive him around for another 10 mins or so he might just fall asleep. I offered to come pick him up so he could go with us driving till he fell asleep. 

Still screaming and demanding and and and. What the hell did he think I was going to do? I've been with the man three years, we have six kids between us and I've never, ever seen him act like such a nutcase. 

I ask him 'if I come home will you calm down?' he doesn't answer. I say, if i come home, will you talk about this so i know you are safe? he says "that's up to you" 'honey, can you hear yourself? you don't sound rational right now' etc. He says "I'm NOT negotiating with you, bring him home NOW' etc. I'm speechless. WTF is his problem? Again with the kidnapping bs. 

Finally he became unintelligible and hung up. Worried about the other kids safety at this point, I decide to go home and try and figure out what to do. I get home about 2am, everybody is asleep. No sign of him downstairs. I don't hear him upstairs. I get the baby his meds, and start pacing the floor with him - option two if you can't let the car lull them to sleep. 

15 mins go by. Still nothing. Finally I call his cell again. He answers. I say, are you ok? do you want to talk about this? He says "are you coming HOME???" and starts to go into a rage again. I say, "I've been home for 15 mins" he hangs up. click. 

He comes down the stairs and says "give me my son" (oh how dramatic) I say 'are you safe?' He says "are you refusing to give me my son???!!" oh lord, here we go. 

I give him the baby, he clutches him to his chest like he just pulled him from a burning building and runs upstairs with him. I follow. He just glares at me. I say, honey, are you ok? he keeps glaring at me. I remind him that I only took him to wal mart. that we had talked about doing that earlier, remember? that i let him know wher I was when he called and I came home even tho he sounded really irrational. I told him that he seemed scared and i didn't understand why. Still glaring at me. I keep repeating the above in as many ways as I can. He finally says 'you can just shut the fu** up now. there is NOTHING you can do to JUSTIFY your ACTIONS' ooook. Great, now i'm in the room with crazy man. 

After a while he calms down. The baby obviously wants to come to me and he lets him. The baby goes back and forth like this for a while. I finally get him to bed around 330. 

He's sitting on the side of the bed, staring into space, glowering. I Had NO idea what to do at this point. 

Finally I figure, what the heck, try a little tenderness. soothe the savage beast? I say only "I'm sorry if I scared you" He looks at me like he doesn't believe me. 

I do something he used to do a long time ago when I was upset. I say "is it ok for me to give you a hug?" he grunts something affirmative. I hug him. He does not hug me back. 

I ask him for a ciggerette. I don't smoke. He is surprised, but says yes. I go smoke. BLECH. haven't smoked in 25 years. don't miss it. He came in while I was smoking. doesn't say anything but smokes a cigg himself. then announces "i'm going to bed"

He goes to bed. A few mins later, I follow him. I ask him "will you rub my back?" Which was one of the three promises he had broken before when he dumped me, sick with a chest infection with the baby and announced he was going to bed earlier. He says "why do you want me to?" I say "because it feels good and I love you" he says 'ok'. he rubs my back for less than three minutes and asks "there. do you feel better?" I say "Yes. thank you". He rolls over to read. I ask him if there is something I can do for him. He says "not really". I ask him if he would like me to rub his back. He says "if you want to" I counter with "do you want me to?" he glowers and says "if you want to" again, giving nothing of himself. I do it anyway. He falls asleep. 

I'm left a nervous wreck trying to figure out what the hell is wrong with him. 

I was sick too, did i mention that? I've been sick all week, he's done little to help. A friend mentioned he should rub my back, take care of me and put the kids to sleep. yeah right. Any real man would have insisted on taking care of his wife. 

Yeah yeah, I know. But ya know what? 

11 honest outpourings of love, understanding, empathy and affection from me. All met with disdain, hate, vileness and indifference. 

But i am not mad. I'm not crying. I realize that, well... it doesn't matter what I do. He's determined to have these deamons and think the worst of me. so. well. fu*k it 

I can only imagine that somebody kidnapped somebody when he was younger somehow. I've never ever seen a reaction like this. 

But what it has shown me, which i consider a very valuable lesson to take away from all this is - I can be one damn nice person. 

Before ya'll get to squawking... NO, i don't think he would ever hurt the kids. NO, i don't think he's a threat to them. YES, i think he's a threat to me and I'm taking precautions. YES, I know what he did was totally over the top. NO, he's not on drugs. It would be so much easier to explain if he was. 

Has anyone else had or ever even heard of someone reacting like this? I don't even know what to call it. Hysterical Paranoia?


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## MarkTwain

snix11-

You need to keep a journal of his outbursts. that way, if he ever calls the police, you can show them something to make them sit up and take notice.

He clearly has severe problems and needs outside help. 

You seem to be finally learning firmness - keep it up. Don't let his anger push you back down.


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## snix11

Thanks. don't intend to. i don't hate him. but i'm not going to try anymore either. not much point after last night. he's gone nuts.


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## MarkTwain

Do you think he wanted the baby back or you last night?

He sounds like he is in a real mess, you might have to pick up the pieces. People who throw tantrums need to be show boundaries though.

It's like liquid. If you pour out water onto a table, it does not form a nice column - it goes wherever it can. You need a container with boundaries if you want the water to form a nice column. It's called a glass.

His mind is flowing out all over the show. In the same way as the water example above, he needs people to show him boundaries. Consistently.


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## snix11

He wanted the baby back, not me. I could go out, anytime I wanted, for days and he would neither call nor ask where i was going. 

For him, all of his love and tenderness and etc, it all poured into the kids. one of the reasons he's so screwed up I suppose. i mean a healthy love for the kids is fine, but the way he acts.....it's both crazy and crazy-making.

When I asked if he wanted me to come back - he said 'i don't give a shi*t what you do, just bring me my son' doesn't sound like it was me he wanted. 

I have, for the time being, surrendered. His way or the highway indeed.

I've noticed today he doesn't seem to understand why I'm not responding like I usually do. He will bring me some trivial piece of crap, something he found on the internet. Usually i agree with whatever he's saying, confirming his choice or whatever. Today I just said "that's nice" and left it at that. 

I'm still sick with bronchitis that is trying it's best to become pneumonia. I'm sure he's convinced himself that my 'mood' has something to do with that. 

I purchased tickets to JC superstar at huge cost (966.00) with the best box seats while he was being nice to me (before this blow up) for this friday night at 8pm. It was going to a triple date for adults. Something sweet and romantic and very special. I love that show and he does too. I'm trying to figure out what to do about the tickets right now. Since we had one ticket left because of a blind date cancellation, i suggested he take his daugther. the seats are set up 4 and 2, with them not all being together. I was going to act as the good hostess and 'date' the extra male (freind of a friend) while he sat with his 9 yr old daughter. This would have worked for me. He doesn't want to take her, since he wants her 'first' broadway musical to be the same as 'his' which was Wicked in London. I took him to that one myself. So of course he would want to share a special event I took him to with his daughter. Told you he was messed up.

Anyway - I'm thinking of just begging off the show as I can't find a better way to get out of having to go with him. 

I cannot afford to make waves because I need his testimony in a court case. So telling him the truth, telling him off, being firm. all of that I would normally do simply won't work in this case.

I'm trying really hard to learn to hide everything. not an easy thing for a girl used to keeping her heart on her sleeve


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## Chopblock

Where is JC Superstar playing? I love that musical. I saw it 3 times about 10 years ago and wouldn't mind seeing it again.

---but i'm not going to try anymore either---

I'm gone for 2 weeks and I come back, and not much has changed.

Sorry to hear you are ill. I'm feeling under the weather too. I hope it gets better.


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## snix11

JC superstar was playing at the majestic in san antonio - looks like it's going to hit most towns in the US between now and this fall, plus over the pond this winter? 

Ted Neeley was great as usual, but some of the other singers were... well... wow.

Hubby pointed out that Neely has been playing Jesus now longer than Jesus did


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## Chopblock

Very clever. I'll check it out if it comes my way.

So are things still the same?


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## Amplexor

snix11 said:


> Ted Neeley was great as usual, but some of the other singers were... well... wow.
> 
> Hubby pointed out that Neely has been playing Jesus now longer than Jesus did


Snix

Glad you had a good show. I’m a big fan also. We saw JCSS with Neeley on the “supposed” final tour in 2008 and he was awful. Talked through most of it and saved his voice for the temple and Garden of Gethsemane scenes. He belted it out there but otherwise he was fat and flat. He didn’t perform in the show the next day and from the people we talked to, the understudy was much better. Still I’m glad you had a good show.


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## snix11

Yes, it was a fun night.

Can anyone think of a reason a husband would leave in the morning at 615am for a 20 minute commute when he didn't have to be to work till 9am? When i asked him, he said it was to avoid the traffic and he just sat in the car in the parkinglot when he got there for what is now 2hrs and 45minutes. 

Does this strike anybody else as odd?


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## snix11

Two weeks later and more insight. I have seen him wrestle several times this month with the idea that he just forgive me and let himself really love me again. he was on the verge of it about three times. 

But each time he would pull himself back and get himself 'under control' again. Now that I see it's actually a CONSCIOUS effort to stay emotionally distant from me and not some subconscious safety thing he's been insisting on, I don't really feel empathy for him anymore. 

Since he is CHOOSING not to love me, I think i'll just let him live with that choice.


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## Chopblock

Maybe we need to boil this down to its most simplest forms.

Your husband is insane. You can continue to wait it out or you can leave.


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## snix11

Do you say he is insane because he chooses to live a life of caring love with out sex or passion or romance? 

He would argue it as such, which is why i'm asking.


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## StillStanding

snix11 said:


> Do you say he is insane because he chooses to live a life of caring love with out sex or passion or romance?
> 
> He would argue it as such, which is why i'm asking.


Caring?:scratchhead:


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## Chopblock

Your husband is not worth the garbage he puts you through. Until you adopt that viewpoint, nothing will change for the better. You are either doomed, or perfect together.


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## snix11

March 1, we are arguing again. Morning was fine, then I went to open my New Marriage fitness stuff. He ignored it, which irked me. 

That led to a huge argument, of which all of it was my fault of course. He said he would do the laundry (didn't) then said he would watch the baby on the weekends - so he takes off because he's mad, then says he doesn't know when or IF he is going to be back or even if it will be tonight. The kids are all shocked and feeling abandoned.

I take them to the park. 

When i come back, he is still sullen and being an ass. I said i was available if he wanted to talk then left him alone. 

He said he wouldn't talk to me because it would be all head games and i would twist his words (pot/kettle anyone?) and that he wouldn't belive me even if i did tell him the truth.

I said his belif wasn't required, the truth was what it was. I said i was perfectly capable of being completly open and honest but didn't think he could handle it. That either way, I wasn't going to live with his hostility anymore - if he hated me that much he could leave. He said he wanted to leave. I said fine.

He said he didn't have anywhere to go, how sad was that? 

Oh for pete's sake. he has like 100 relatives nad friends that would take him in in a minute, the only one of us making any income right now etc. And HE's the poor bastard that would be stuck? PULEEEZE.

Even tho he's been calling me names, saying F** off, Get the F*** away (when i come in to put away laundry and such - his job no less) I've been not taking the bait. But I'm done making up. F** that 

But I was nice. I said, well if you want to go i'm happy to talk to you about that too. 

Then left.

GRF.


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## snix11

Hrumph. My threads got moved now i'm not sure where to post!! 

I started another thread to try and give this one a rest, but since it was moved to a section nobody reads, nobody is of course answering it. 

Start a new one in general discussion??


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## MarkTwain

What's wrong with this thread?


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## snix11

nothing much except that this one is about getting the truth, and the others are more, um... positive or specific?


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## snix11

I suppose the only way to get anything would be to start yet ANOTHER thread on the 'general' forum (the only one with a decent amount of traffic) and try again.. sheesh.


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## snix11

Still not sure if i have the truth or not. either his truth is totally mutable and changeable, or he's still lying to me or himself. 

i have no idea. on again, off again, compliments followed by closed off emotionless roommate behavior. 

the back and forth is giving me emotional whiplash!


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## Farfignewton

Is he really worth all of this headache? Are you just used to be toyed with? I understand what's going on with you and I ask myself these two questions often. My plan is to leave once I finish college because I am just not happy anymore. My husband has sucked the "pep" out of my soul with his actions. When you find the truth, let me know what it is because I have tried for over a year now and have not found anything that I like.


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## snix11

The truth is he is just not into me. He is choosing not to love me, not to be caring, not to be romantic. 

Why? who knows.


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## Oneday

Snix, hi im new here and like alot of peopl here I have problems in my relationship that I want advice on, but I read the first 11 pages of your thread and I really want to comment. My fiancee is not very affectionate or pays much attention to me but I do know he loves me and would not be downright mean or nasty to me (unless we have a HUGE blowout which has only happened once or twice in almost 6 years). I understand the loving someone and wanting so much to be loved back but do you feel like you deserve to always feel rejection, pain, and hated? I made the choice to be a single mom along time ago and while it is hard, you will find your happiness lies with your children and the satisfaction of knowing you can make yourself happy. A complete person needs noone to be happy. A mate should be a complement to who you are, not be a crutch to validate you. I would recommend getting a part time job (I know, its hard with small children) something small, like 5 hours a week working in the public - waitressing at a local pub, maybe at a local clothing store, just to get out and meet people to make friends that make you feel good. or maybe a book club at the library - something that will allow you to socially interact with other people so you can form a support network and take your mind off of the problems at home - this was you can see that there are people out there that are capable of treating others with love, respect, compassion and dignity. 
Just as a side note, has he ever seen a therapist or psychiatrist for a mental or psychological disorder/ medication?


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## snix11

Thank you for the info oneday. 

I already work from home on two businesses. I can't afford daycare, so I have to work from home. 

I agree with getting out and being more social, but during the day I work, in the evenings I raise six kids and at night I never know when he is going to be home so I can't plan for anything.

I was a single mom for 10 years, I know the drill. It's an ok, life, but lonely. I raised four boys on my own with no help or child support. 

I'm sure he saw plenty of therapists when he was growing up, he has mentioned seeing them for his anger problems. 

He's just choosing to be cold hearted.


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## Oneday

Im so sorry for how you feel, I know, its terrible to always be left hurt and wanting more. I don't know how anyone can treat someone like that and still chose to stay living with you. Its easy for other people to say just leave, or kick him out but its never that simple and alot of us don't have the courage or strength to do that (I know for myself its always easier to be left than to do the leaving myself) I know in my situation when i stop trying, he tries alot harder (as long as I accept what he's offering when he tries and don't give attitude...) but its bitter sweet because alot of times it is short lived. people are who they are and only change when THEY want to, not for anyone else. The open relationship - seeing someone else can lead to more confused feelings and increased hostility at home, but if you could get out for at least one night a month it might make you feel better... I don't know what type of business you have but could you trade services for babysitting services? (silly thought my a possibility?)


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## snix11

Hi oneday - I'm working on getting out more, having a more positive outlook. it's easy today as i'm not having any relationship problems. lol

i have been a single mom for over 10 years before - i know i can live alone. i can also live happily with a good man who loves me back. I can't live with a man who doesn't love me tho - it wrecks my self esteem! 

Last night we had 'the talk' and he's supposed to be getting back to me with an answer on where to go with our relationship this week. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...sion/5141-learning-settle-less.html#post51806


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