# Manning up should not be abuse!



## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I get tired of members telling new members to man up or put their big girl panties on. I want to start by saying that I totally agree with setting boundaries, doing a 180 and sticking to those points with the WS. None of these are "manning up", they are just good practices. In my own case, when my WS was still in contact, I told her it was either NC or a separation with her moving out. I also told her separation meant she still paid 1/2 of the mortgage, house expenses and child support and it did not mean I was paying for apartment - not even 1/2. ALl income and accounts like Credit cards and banks and online accounts would be separated. It also meant all extracirricular activities for our daughter had to cease because neither of us could afford to fix the house up for eventual sale and deal with all of the additional expenses of separation while maintain the same lifestyle and extracirricular costs. I put a time limit of 3-6 months dependent on her continued behavior before I would file for D. Once she saw the paper work for separation and we had hard discussions about D, she decided to try and work things out and started NC. This is not manning up, it's a practical approach to dragging the WS out of the fog. I have maintained those boundaries and we are working through the pain of the A very well.

Now to the part I dislike about the "manning up" crowd. Your wayward spouse did something terrible. They need to confront why they did it, understand it and help the BS work through his pain. They should not be thrown out, kicked to the curb, punished, made to feel inhuman or threatened. They should also not be made to feel in prison under security cmaeras and microphones. Full disclosure must be voluntary or the WS will withdraw to where they are comfortable - back to the A. All of those are abusive. While the WS may react to those behaviors by starting to change, it will most likely be out of fear which will eventually turn into resentment when they begin to do their version of manning up to regain their self esteem. In the case of my WS, those behaviors only served to galvanize her to leave to get away from me thinking I would NEVER heal or deal with the emotions I had. It also convinced her I would remain abusive and threatening forever.

Unless you are the sole owner of your house before marriage and your wife has contributed nothing in terms of support by caring for your kids and you or in the form of income, no police department or court is going to allow throwing her out or changing the locks to stand. The WS has every bit as much right to be in the house as you. Separation has to be mutually agreed upon and fair conditions laid down around it. By pushing the WS out, you are also reducing the chances of R and increasing the chances the A activity will increase. Still the boundaries and requirements for not separating must be firm and not deviated from.

Last but not least, if you yell, scream and get angry you are driving the WS away as well as setting yourself up for spousal abuse charges. Abuse can be verbal, it doesn't have to get physical. Assault is the threat, battery is the act.

So when a new member comes on the forum looking for guidance and support, I feel it completely opposite the goals of this forum to challenge their manhood or determination to get through it or reconciling by saying man up. If someone asks if reconcilliation is possible, they are looking for hope. Most are in shock and in no position to make major decisions. Yes set boundaries and requirements to stay together in the same house. If the new member is so bitter that they just want to end it and D, the longer term members need to suggest calming down and setting a strategy plan in place before they make that major jump. Is the WS wrong, hell yes. And well thought out responses and boundaries and action are needed. 

Once the A is stopped recovery for both the LS and WS should begin if R is to work. Both spouses need to work.

In terms of the LS recovering form the pain and dealing with a form of PTSD, yes the WS needs to help and answer questions. An inquisition it should not be. Down to the color of the underwear or the acts performed only creates additional triggers. The LS needs to begin to confront their triggers and start dealing with their anxiety and anger. The WS spouse should be there to help them reduce anxiety and fears by the right actions and loving contact like holding the LS or calling them as soon as the word fear or anger is used. Question are OK so long as they are not from and anger and attacking tone or behavior. Those cause the WS to shut down and avoid future questions.

SO, don't challenge their manhood or call them weak. Don't blow out what little self esteem they have left. DO listen to what they want to do and make suggestions and guidance. Do encourage a cooling down period before making long term decisions. Do encourage thinking of the WS feelings.

My rule is do no harm, even if I'm being harmed. DOn't stoop to their level. If they aren't coming back and you D, doing harm will make the D spiteful and not amicable and probably drain all of the money into a lawyers pocket. If I am faced with a police officer at my door to charge me with spousal abuse, which tact will be more likely to keep me out of jail and show my WS true colors.

OK have at me here - not hijacking others threads and I will try to do the same.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Wow


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

I find it ironic that everything you say that "should" be done in the treatment of a WS is EXACTLY the same guidance given for when we need to MAN up.

It's also ironic that your WS decided to work on the marriage AFTER you decided to MAN up and show your boundaries.

No where on this forum have I seen the definition of Manning Up to be synonymous with abuse. Keep in mind that a 180 and sticking to your boundaries is next to impossible or a Nice Guy, until they realize that in order for them to do this (which in my opinion is so counter intuitive for a nice guy to do) is that first they need o Man up and realize the power of boundaries and the 180.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

I am still wondering if his post is irony in and of itself or just an ironic situation. Does he know that everything he described is manning up in regards to how he is saving his relationship and is looking for stupid reactions or does he not realise it so is unaware of the irony in the post thereby making it an ironic situation and not true irony.

In closing its ironic that the most common use of the word irony is its misuse.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Lol. It would be situational irony in it's truest form, whereas the "actor" can not see the irony but the "spectators" can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Ahh a fan of true Irony I <3 you for that Alpha so many people lose what irony is about and think coincidences etc is irony. Thank you sir for restoring more of my faith in wit and humor. Now if we could only get people to realize comedies aren't all laughs and fart jokes... owell somethings will enver come back.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Yup! It's amazin' what I can remember from my edjumacation! I guess I is still smart! Lol! 

According to my 7 year old, fart jokes are AWESOME!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Ok...NG13. Now to make you remember something for the REST of your life...lol.

The first time I was texted this.... <3

I texted back...."I don't get it? [email protected] and Balls? "

Now, will it be ironic that every time you see that now you will think of that term, or just situational comedy? Lol

Ok. Not to hijack......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

If it's abuse it is NOT manning up. As for demanding transparency, that is a judgement call. My view is simply that the WS has betrayed their partner and the betrayed spouse has the right to insist on transparency/monitoring as a condition of moving forward. If the WS "resents" being monitored more than they feel "remorse" for cheating, that right there tells you where they really stand. Which is they feel bad they got "caught" more so than feeling bad for injuring their partner.




8yearscheating said:


> I get tired of members telling new members to man up or put their big girl panties on. I want to start by saying that I totally agree with setting boundaries, doing a 180 and sticking to those points with the WS. None of these are "manning up", they are just good practices. In my own case, when my WS was still in contact, I told her it was either NC or a separation with her moving out. I also told her separation meant she still paid 1/2 of the mortgage, house expenses and child support and it did not mean I was paying for apartment - not even 1/2. ALl income and accounts like Credit cards and banks and online accounts would be separated. It also meant all extracirricular activities for our daughter had to cease because neither of us could afford to fix the house up for eventual sale and deal with all of the additional expenses of separation while maintain the same lifestyle and extracirricular costs. I put a time limit of 3-6 months dependent on her continued behavior before I would file for D. Once she saw the paper work for separation and we had hard discussions about D, she decided to try and work things out and started NC. This is not manning up, it's a practical approach to dragging the WS out of the fog. I have maintained those boundaries and we are working through the pain of the A very well.
> 
> Now to the part I dislike about the "manning up" crowd. Your wayward spouse did something terrible. They need to confront why they did it, understand it and help the BS work through his pain. They should not be thrown out, kicked to the curb, punished, made to feel inhuman or threatened. They should also not be made to feel in prison under security cmaeras and microphones. Full disclosure must be voluntary or the WS will withdraw to where they are comfortable - back to the A. All of those are abusive. While the WS may react to those behaviors by starting to change, it will most likely be out of fear which will eventually turn into resentment when they begin to do their version of manning up to regain their self esteem. In the case of my WS, those behaviors only served to galvanize her to leave to get away from me thinking I would NEVER heal or deal with the emotions I had. It also convinced her I would remain abusive and threatening forever.
> 
> ...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

If I was that far out of step/synch with a group of men I’m somewhat involved with as you are here I’d take a very good, long hard look at myself.

8yearscheating, I put the 180 and Boundaries on TAM. I put them here because they greatly helped me and I hoped they’d help others. Now nobody but nobody would tell me I’m “not a man”. But still I consider those two things “manning up”. And if you think some of the men on here are being “tough” you have not seen anything at all.

Sometimes people need “TOUGH LOVE” as all the mothering, mollycoddling, pampering, cosseting, indulging in the world never gets a man to take a good look at himself and undertake the changes he needs to make to himself.

Bob


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Bob,

MEM has a(nother) good point.

Just as a partner will "steamroll" you if she finds you are unwilling to enforce personal boundaries, she will ALSO withdraw to see "how much you will do".

Many guys make the huge mistake (I've made it) of taking on this, that and the other thing as a way of showing how committed they are.

Subconsciously - this spells d-o-o-r-m-a-t.

Seriously - how much "time" does a stay at home spouse spend "working" during the day, between naps, phone calls, texting, computer time, and driving the kids around?

Doesn't such a spouse need to have an idea of the "other half" of what's being done to make their day possible?



AFEH said:


> If I was that far out of step/synch with a group of men I’m somewhat involved with as you are here I’d take a very good, long hard look at myself.
> 
> 8yearscheating, I put the 180 and Boundaries on TAM. I put them here because they greatly helped me and I hoped they’d help others. Now nobody but nobody would tell me I’m “not a man”. But still I consider those two things “manning up”. And if you think some of the men on here are being “tough” you have not seen anything at all.
> 
> ...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> MEM has a(nother) good point.
> 
> ...


I don’t think it’s possible in all cases for the non essential earner to know and understand the world of the partner who earns the essentials.

Take my wife. She went from her parent’s home to our marriage home. She was a young mother at age 20 and my goodness she had so much to learn and did so very well what with looking after two sons, taking care of the home and looking after me. She had mountains to climb and she got to the top. I on the other hand in the beginning had two jobs just to try and make ends meet and they never did for a long while.

My wife never had to earn to pay the rent or mortgage, any of the utility bills, holidays, cars etc. etc. When she did go to work what she earned was her money to do what she liked with and to be honest I liked it that way.

So not once until she was in her late 50s did she ever have to worry about “who” was going to pay the rent, utilities etc. But she’s in that world now and I knew until she was right in it she was never ever going to “get it”. I think she’s swimming and I’m quite proud of her.

Bob


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

You can call your approach to new members tough love if you want to. To someone who is already self destructing and who has less self esteem than is healthy, challenging their manhood could push them deeper in the hole. In my own case it made me ignore everything that crowd said to me which I'm sure is not the desired effect. In others it might inflame an already raging person and cause them to become abusive achieving exactly the wrong attitude to success. I guess I didn't need to be manned up, I was already man enough for the right actions and behavior. Bravado wasn't necessary. I was already confident and self assured without shouting I was a MAN. In fact, I needs to be careful not to be too strong and overpower and push my wife away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> You can call your approach to new members tough love if you want to. To someone who is already self destructing and who has less self esteem than is healthy, challenging their manhood could push them deeper in the hole. In my own case it made me ignore everything that crowd said to me which I'm sure is not the desired effect. In others it might inflame an already raging person and cause them to become abusive achieving exactly the wrong attitude to success. I guess I didn't need to be manned up, I was already man enough for the right actions and behavior. Bravado wasn't necessary. I was already confident and self assured without shouting I was a MAN. In fact, I needs to be careful not to be too strong and overpower and push my wife away.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Different people give different advice. Surely that is part of the beauty of TAM. It is entirely up to you how you respond to that advice. Your response is totally your responsibility. As is the way others respond totally their responsibility.

Bob


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Bob,

Who is Chris?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> Who is Chris?


Our host, founder of TAM!

Bob


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Then we "[email protected] and Balls" Chris for such an awesome site!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The 13th_Floor (Mar 7, 2011)

I never said "manning up" was to abuse a WS. That's complete BS to make that assumption just because you took a different approach that might have worked in your case. I post what's working in MINE. I think it's the term "MAN UP" itself that bothers you. To me, it means do the 180, stand your ground, enforce your boundaries, don't be a doormat, STICK to the 180 like glue. 

I never said anything about punching my wife in the throat for contacting the OM again or calling her any remotely abusive names. As a matter of fact, the ONLY abusive name that his been brought up between my wife and I was her telling me, "I'm not a cheating wh0re!" This was after I caught her, while he was in the room, knowing I was 6k miles away. She said it, not me.

Really, get over it. If I didn't care for other posters feelings, I wouldn't post on their threads.


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## The 13th_Floor (Mar 7, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Our host, founder of TAM!
> 
> Bob


Chris gets my mushroom stamp of approval : )


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Really I think we are all on the asme page about 180. What bothers me is kicking someone when they are down. I'venotice Lodmayhem has softened his aproach and I guess that is all I think is necessary. I've had people call my wife a ***** and skank and lot's of other fighting words. I thinks it's necessary to caution new members to be both - 180 and aware of the WS and their issues. My WS had serious problem with confronting me, she ran to the OM whenever I got too strong and refused to let her have her say in discussions. I'm sure we have all heard from WS you are too controlling. Using the right words and actions works. Dropping the hammer many times causes withdrawl by the WS. All is ask is to temper or think out of the box when making suggestions. Make sure they realize that me tarzan you jane generally won't work. ALso make the new members realize that while their past actions did not cause the divorce, it may ahve created fertile ground and they should consider what they do personally to make themselves the better person that their WS wants to come back to.

Oh and whoever made the crack about me buying a diamond necklace for my wife's birthday - so the hell what? Part of repairing the realtionship is showing love and respect in BOTH directions. Again, punishment only drives them away again.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Even though I did divorced my wife after I found out about her affair, I DO NOT question my fellow LH manhood for heroically choosing to fight to save their marriages. What I do look down is on their counterproductive behavior (crying, pleading, saying 'I love you', etc) on the part of them. Not only does it not work, but it actually makes matters worse by further repulsing their wives - it even repulses some of us guys when it is our cheating wives who are the ones doing it. 

I will repeat this - and keep on repeating it because it's true - *women are sexually repulsed by weak and weak acting men*. Show a woman that despite your devastation that you are strong enough to move on with or without her, and more often than not, she will respect you. Without respect - and self respect - there can be no sexual or emotional attraction.

Sometimes you seem to put more emphasis on marital recovery than on individual recovery. I believe that the latter is more important than the former no matter what the outcome of the marriage is. Without emotionally healthy individuals, a healthy marriage is not possible.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

8yearscheating said:


> Really I think we are all on the asme page about 180. What bothers me is kicking someone when they are down. I'venotice Lodmayhem has softened his aproach and I guess that is all I think is necessary. I've had people call my wife a ***** and skank and lot's of other fighting words. I thinks it's necessary to caution new members to be both - 180 and aware of the WS and their issues. My WS had serious problem with confronting me, she ran to the OM whenever I got too strong and refused to let her have her say in discussions. I'm sure we have all heard from WS you are too controlling. Using the right words and actions works. Dropping the hammer many times causes withdrawl by the WS. All is ask is to temper or think out of the box when making suggestions. Make sure they realize that me tarzan you jane generally won't work. ALso make the new members realize that while their past actions did not cause the divorce, it may ahve created fertile ground and they should consider what they do personally to make themselves the better person that their WS wants to come back to.
> 
> Oh and whoever made the crack about me buying a diamond necklace for my wife's birthday - so the hell what? Part of repairing the realtionship is showing love and respect in BOTH directions. Again, punishment only drives them away again.


I'm seeing two different issues here.

The message v. the way its delivered.

There is no abuse in the message itself.

But the delivery sometimes infers that the person who needs to "Man-up" is weak or deficient in some way.

My biggest problem with "Man-up" is that the advice is often given as if its an action - when its really a process.

I have self esteem issues. I'm also an enabler.

At one point I was getting a lot of advice from this forum - some good, some not so good, or at least not good for me.

I've quit posting about my own issues even though I continue to struggle.

I continue to work on "Manning-up". I understand the idea.

Most of the more respected members of the clubhouse will admit that they had to go through their own process of "Manning up." I think most of them would admit that it was not an overnight transformation. And I bet most of them did it without the support of this forum.

But to come here and be criticised for still being a "work-in-process" - I don't think it would help me.

I still think that patience and understanding are a big part of being a true man. Yet - the way some people here dish out advice - I'm not sure that I'm in line with the others on those two points.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

YEs bot both of you must become emotionally healthy, not one to the exclusion or hurt of the other.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Nicely put niceguy. Driving people like you away with unecessary criticism when there is so much that could benefit you is precisely my point.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

morituri said:


> Even though I did divorced my wife after I found out about her affair, I DO NOT question my fellow LH manhood for heroically choosing to fight to save their marriages. What I do look down is on their counterproductive behavior (crying, pleading, saying 'I love you', etc) on the part of them. Not only does it not work, but it actually makes matters worse by further repulsing their wives - it even repulses some of us guys when it is our cheating wives who are the ones doing it.
> 
> I will repeat this - and keep on repeating it because it's true - *women are sexually repulsed by weak and weak acting men*. Show a woman that despite your devastation that you are strong enough to move on with or without her, and more often than not, she will respect you. Without respect - and self respect - there can be no sexual or emotional attraction.


Part of my struggle.

Someone punches you in the gut - HARD - out of nowhere. You are likely to double over in pain - and that's about it. If you throw a punch, it's going to be a weak one. Good luck fighting back in that moment.

Does that make you a weak person? You must be weak if you can't breathe and are unable to fight back, right?




morituri said:


> Sometimes you seem to put more emphasis on marital recovery than on individual recovery. I believe that the latter is more important than the former no matter what the outcome of the marriage is. Without emotionally healthy individuals, a healthy marriage is not possible.


Its a natural instinct to chase after someone who is running from you - but I totally agree that you must work on yourself before you work on the marriage. 

If you do this part right, you run the risk of losing someone you thought was the love of your life. Working on yourself means letting them go. It means they have more time to "date" while you go to therapy, hit the gym and read books. Its totally counterintuitive. But its the only way to go.

Again - seeing through the delivery can be difficult.


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## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

8yearscheating said:


> My WS had serious problem with confronting me, she ran to the OM whenever I got too strong and refused to let her have her say in discussions. I'm sure we have all heard from WS you are too controlling. Using the right words and actions works. Dropping the hammer many times causes withdrawl by the WS.


It sounds like you were already way too alpha in your relationship, and so obviously advice to "man up" was counter to what you needed. A man who is too alpha will also get cheated on, and if he's a natural he may not realize what happened. In that case, diamond necklaces and such might even be appropriate. Clearly, strong boundaries are still needed regardless.



nice777guy said:


> Its a natural instinct to chase after someone who is running from you - but I totally agree that you must work on yourself before you work on the marriage.
> 
> If you do this part right, you run the risk of losing someone you thought was the love of your life. Working on yourself means letting them go. It means they have more time to "date" while you go to therapy, hit the gym and read books. Its totally counterintuitive. But its the only way to go.
> 
> Again - seeing through the delivery can be difficult.


You are right, it is a natural instinct. But it is this instinct against which we fight. To those of us on the other side of the wall, it's so clear and obvious how bad the chasing behavior is, we can hardly stand to see it happen (again). I reserve my strongest levels of frustration for when someone repeatedly does this, is advised against it, even sees for himself that it isn't working, but is afraid to try something new (and counterintuitive). 

You are also right that risk is part of the equation. Whoever told you that something as beautiful and desirable as love was not worth taking some risks for was flat wrong. Risk is inherent in it, and your willingness to take it is a display of high value. Counterintuitive, but not illogical.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

For me I needed three types of “help”. There’s what I think of as the mothering help from female friends who stepped into the breach and helped me out. I found women can listen and “take care” like no man can. On the other hand one or two women really laid it on the line for me much the same way a male friend would.

Then I had my male friends somewhat verbally beating me up. Some of it I thought fair, some I didn’t. Either way I was blessed they cared and grateful they were there. And they knew it, I made sure of that.

Then for me there’s the psychological help. I have a great need to “understand things” and it’s a psychologist I turn to for help.

Bob


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm a troubleshooter and firefighter in the sense that I deal with contractors and contractual issues that are on the verge of lawsuits. I am a professional negotiator as well. Top that off with a deep commanding voice that can make most people shrivel when i'm angry. Obviously all of that is over alpha for a woman who was taught in a huge family to avoid conflict and stay out of trouble. My nature became overbearing and controlling to her. Everytime I got angry, she ran to the other man. I take NO responsibility for her affair. I do however understand what I needed to do with myself in order for her to be comfortable with me and want only me again. This is why I feel it is imperative that manning up be used sparingly.

I've found the right combination is stating your needs and boundaries and sticking to them while not being aggressive or angry about it. Also mixing in a lot of compassion and understanding for what your WS is going through. And ALWAYS using a soft calm voice and rewarding honesty by saying thank you and rewarding help and compssion with your issues by praising appropriate behavior. My wife saw a marked change in me and my approach to her and that is what drew her back to me. 

Unfortunately, I think a lot of men take manning up to mean being extremely firm and not showing ANY weakness. That doesn't work either. Showing your pain and letting them know you still love them is not weakness. I agree begging and pleading is.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

nice777guy said:


> Part of my struggle.
> 
> Someone punches you in the gut - HARD - out of nowhere. You are likely to double over in pain - and that's about it. If you throw a punch, it's going to be a weak one. Good luck fighting back in that moment.
> 
> Does that make you a weak person? You must be weak if you can't breathe and are unable to fight back, right?


No but to consciously allow yourself to be repeatedly sucker punched is.



> Its a natural instinct to chase after someone who is running from you - but I totally agree that you must work on yourself before you work on the marriage.


We are also programmed to runaway from that which is chasing us. 



> If you do this part right, you run the risk of losing someone you thought was the love of your life. Working on yourself means letting them go. It means they have more time to "date" while you go to therapy, hit the gym and read books. Its totally counter intuitive. But its the only way to go.


You can't stop your wife from doing what she wants, no matter how self-destructive it is. This is called acceptance NOT condonation.

As trite and cliche as it sounds, it bears repeating again and again: *we are ultimately responsible for our own happiness*.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Amen to that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

8Y,
Being loud, talking over my W - two things she hated with a PASSION about my style. I didn't do it daily, or weekly - but a half dozen to a dozen times a year was really bad for our marriage.

The reason I emphasize staying in control of your emotions - "all dominance begins and ends internally" is because when I felt provoked I behaved aggressively. 

It took a LOT of effort to rewire my internal responses to conflict with her. Once I did that - our whole "style of conflict" changed a great deal and for the better. 

The really interesting thing is that she acknowledges my "cold detach" mode is highly effective because she does not like me being in that mode at all. And it is ALSO true that she has zero problems with it because she always knows why I am in that very controlled place and it is her choice as to whether or not to talk to me to resolve the current conflict. FWIW I don't stay "cold" if she elects to constructively address the issue and that may well include telling me why I am completely wrong 




8yearscheating said:


> I'm a troubleshooter and firefighter in the sense that I deal with contractors and contractual issues that are on the verge of lawsuits. I am a professional negotiator as well. Top that off with a deep commanding voice that can make most people shrivel when i'm angry. Obviously all of that is over alpha for a woman who was taught in a huge family to avoid conflict and stay out of trouble. My nature became overbearing and controlling to her. Everytime I got angry, she ran to the other man. I take NO responsibility for her affair. I do however understand what I needed to do with myself in order for her to be comfortable with me and want only me again. This is why I feel it is imperative that manning up be used sparingly.
> 
> I've found the right combination is stating your needs and boundaries and sticking to them while not being aggressive or angry about it. Also mixing in a lot of compassion and understanding for what your WS is going through. And ALWAYS using a soft calm voice and rewarding honesty by saying thank you and rewarding help and compssion with your issues by praising appropriate behavior. My wife saw a marked change in me and my approach to her and that is what drew her back to me.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think a lot of men take manning up to mean being extremely firm and not showing ANY weakness. That doesn't work either. Showing your pain and letting them know you still love them is not weakness. I agree begging and pleading is.


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## The 13th_Floor (Mar 7, 2011)

If you go back and look at my very first thread, you will see that I was an emotional wreck. A 30 year old man crying in the bathroom, crying on airfield on a military installation and pleading to God to wake me up from this nightmare.

Then, one day, I looked back upon the many years of yelling, saying hurtful things, I even threw an iron across the bedroom, I finally realized that I was half to blame for the problems my marriage is enduring now. How did I begin my recovery? Owning up to my mistakes and turning back into the man my wife first fell in love with. The 180. Either she'd follow me again down the path of a successful marriage or turn her back on me forever. 

One thing is for sure, the 180 helped me find my confidence, my self esteem started rising, and I began the process of self recovery and understanding of why my wife felt she needed to share herself with another man. I have bad days, but there's no more tears, no more anguish, just looking forward to becoming a better person in general.

My wife is giving in. She's coming out of her fog and in the process, we're both becoming better people.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

8yearscheating said:


> Really I think we are all on the asme page about 180. What bothers me is kicking someone when they are down. I'venotice Lodmayhem has softened his aproach and I guess that is all I think is necessary.


So you made up a thread just to call me out? I'm flattered. :scratchhead:

Sorry, but I don't soften my approach just because some anonymous internet poster gets upset. And FYI, I mentioned to another member that *TO HIS WIFE*, he looks weak and unattractive. And it is not for you to take offense for someone else. The poster is a big boy and can speak for himself if he feels my words may be too harsh. If the member feels like someone is kicking them when they are down, then they can say so. 

You get upset when someone says "man up"? Seems like you have a different definition of manning up than the vast majority of people here. All it means is standing firm for yourself and your requirements. You seem to have taken it to an extreme by saying it's abuse. 

"_Oh and give yourself ONE HUGE ATTABOY for sticking it out. You are a better man than the 75% who just throw in the towel_."

You also seem to look down on others who have decided to D instead of R. You need to accept the fact that R is not for everyone and that infidelity is a deal breaker for many people. They are not any weaker than those who decide to R. We ALL have different breaking points. Perhaps you can forgive that your wife has been cheating for 20 years and that your wife has given birth to another man's child, and that is commendable. Others may not decide to R if they were in your situation. That doesn't make you better than them.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

No it doesn't but those that try to R deserve kudos. If someone decides they can't get past the infidelity then the right thing to do is D because they will not have good marriage if they can't eventually forgive and move forward. To each his own. And by saying what I did to Disbelief, I was supporting him in what he wanted.

You still don't get that many people stop coming to this forum because they are put off by the personal attacks and piling on at a time when they are in shock. I have seen many who stop posting and many who who only come on here occasionally because they don't want to hear the negative messages. People come here for support, not to have their manhood or beliefs challenged in a severely negative way. You can challenge them on taking the wrong tact in dealing with their wayward spouse. I do that as well. No it's not my job to defend others. But I see the reactions which are often politically softenend to not offend you or others and see their posting frequency drop off. This is almost always at time when they need the sounding board and help the most.

All I ask is that everyone show some compassion to the new members and those struggling to make decisions. Calling their decisions stupid, telling them to open their eyes and their spouses aren't worth it or calling their spouses names serves absolutely no positive purpose even if they do decide to D. Telling them to consider all their options and make the choice themselves and not let others drive their decisions is IMHO the best way for them. Recognizing that they may be too ALPHA and having driven their spouses away, is in the long run better for them even if they do D. Saying man up will cause some to fail to look inside and believe being a man means taking control and forcing your position in a disrespective and hurting way to the WS is OK - after all they are being the man they have always been.

Don't get your balls all blown up and a woody, it was not directed solely at you.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Side note - have you noticed many of the posts in this thread are guys who realized they were too alpha - including myself? I found an immediate reaction for the better when I backed off and quit being aggressive while at the same time showing a real respect for her feelings and trying to understand her as opposed to getting cold and shutting down. My wife turned around in less than month seeing this behavior and she was insistent on separating and D at the start of that month. She told me it was BOTH my insistance on either R or D AND most importantly, my immediate change in my approach to her. Without the latter she was done with me. You can call that manning down or being too soft because I never stopped telling her I loved her and my goal was R while also telling her I couldn't hang in limbo or watch her continue to see the OM. So your very point that guys quit showing they want to R and still love their wives may very well be the exact opposite they need to do. My wife is extremely strong willed and stubborn. If I had shut down and stopped pursuing her, she would be gone now. Open your mind and remember that not everyone is in your situation and their wives are not necessarily the same as yours. Find peace in yourself and examine what you did that created a situation where your wife was so unhappy she didn't care if she cheated. Your not responsible for her actions and A, you are responsible for yours. If you don't resolve the underlying reason why she was unhappy it will happen again.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

How many new personal boundaries do you have 8years and what are they? You know, that behaviour you will absolutely not tolerate.

With respect my guess is zilch, nada. But I could be wrong.


Look in my book you can take all the blame you want for your wife's 20 year affair. That’s your choice and you’re doing it because of selfish reasons, because you are getting something out of behaving that way.

But while you are doing that you are still being a codependent. You are not being interdependent. In that you are accepting responsibility for another’s behaviour.

Your wife’s affair was for her reasons, nothing to do with you. You just happened to be there and fitted into her schema of her life and you did it for 20 years. It is another way of looking at it and putting responsibility for another person’s behaviour firmly where it belongs. And that’s with them, nobody else.

Bob


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

If you mean hers, many. I will not tolerate male "friends". I expect her to notify me immediately if she contacted or contacts the OM. In the case of the latter, she knows I will immediately D. If someone starts getting personal with her or flirting, she knows i expect her to tell me immediately and for her to shut down the individual immediately. She understand I need to ask questions and we have worked out a way for me to do it without her feeling badgered or punished. She knows I have triggers and that she must respond right away to prevent me from spinning out of control. She is totally transparent - tells me where she is going and calls if there is a change or delay. She knows I can see her location on find my IPhone. All phone records are completely open. While she doesn't know how I do it, she knows I can see everything she does on our computers. She doesn't chafe at these things anymore and I don't put it in her face. She agrees and understands all of my restrictions on her - whole heartedly and without reservations. In fact, when I hit triggers, she hands me her phone and tells me to read anything I want. She realizes our marriage comes first and asks me before making any plans to go out with the girls - this used to be a major issue for me. The same holds true for everything, we agree first before either one of us does anything.

There's more, I just don't feel like writing a book. Is there something more you think I should expect?


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Side note - all the surveillance in the world can be gotten around if they want to. She could go and do what she wants and I would never know. I think I understand her well enough and hind sight is 20/20 when it comes to the behaviors she exhibited while having the affair. I think I would sense the changes and I have not stopped being vigilant in drawing her out. I no longer ignore my gut feelings that something is not right. It's all I can do. My surviellance has decreased to a scan. If I sense something I check it out thoroughly. I don't let it control me though.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> I expect her to notify me immediately if she contacted or contacts the OM. In the case of the latter, she knows I will immediately D.


I’m going to push this a bit 8Years. Have conflict with me, block me or tell me to be off, I wont take offence.

Your wife did contact the OM after you told her your boundary, what you will not tolerate under any circumstances. That you would divorce her if she did contact OM.

You didn’t enforce your boundary, You didn’t divorce her. So your boundary is eroded, it means nothing, it is not a boundary. Why didn’t you divorce her or at the very least start the process off with the full intention of following it through to the end?

Bob


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

If you seen and heard the explosion when that happened, you'd know I was real hard on her about it. After I ahd a chance to clear my head which was a while, I considered what she was going through. Her father had died and she was completely beside herself. Add to that a lot of physical problems - she's going in for stents next week. I told her one last break was it. I had told her before allowing one more chance, I was contacting my lawyer and did. I also cancelled a trip to Dallas to see my son with her and my daughter. Everything was moving toward D. Yes I gave a pass. But I honestly don't think she has the belief I will do it again. She has been even more compliant and understanding since. For Christ's sake AFEH, if you can't ever bend, you will break. That includes your relationship. One for you - did you reconcile? If you did, have you been compassionate enough with your wife that she will never go elsewhere looking for something you won't give her?


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Side note - I don't mind the questions or differences of opinion.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I also shut down her unknown email account with her permission. That too was a never again or D. What else do think I should set as a boundary - you didn't answer my question?


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I read one of your threads AFEH and I'm sorry that you have been working so long to R and it hasn't happened for you. Consider what you can do to the better choice for her. What is it that you think opened her heart for an A? Forget my questions but think about my responses.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

So Lordmayhem, never started your own thread. What's your story?


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

8yearscheating said:


> So Lordmayhem, never started your own thread. What's your story?


The story that's becoming more and more common these days in the age of the internet and social networking sites: The spouse that reconnects with an old flame from years past, falls down the slippery slope and has an EA, which is hurtful in itself because this wife knew that my first wife cheated on me (PA). Only reason it didn't become a PA is because OM lives in Canada and couldn't come here because he's a third party national and couldn't cross into the US. Because of what my first wife did to me and this wife's prior knowledge of that, a PA is the deal breaker for me.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> I read one of your threads AFEH and I'm sorry that you have been working so long to R and it hasn't happened for you. Consider what you can do to the better choice for her. What is it that you think opened her heart for an A? Forget my questions but think about my responses.


You're have it wrong 8years. I've not taken one word or step toward reconcilliation. I've no intention of either. I may respond to my wife if she ever makes a move that way.

Bob


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

So did you sort through it with your second wife lordmayhem? I can understand why a PA would be a deal breaker for you. We all have our own ways and what we can tolerate. You know my story. I should have been gone. If wife hadn't turned completely around quickly I know I would have been because I was at that point when she did.

AFEH I'm sorry it didn't work out for you and hope it still does one way or the other.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

AFEH said:


> You're have it wrong 8years. I've not taken one word or step toward reconcilliation. I've no intention of either. I may respond to my wife if she ever makes a move that way.
> 
> Bob


IMO - a healthy place to be.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I agree Conrad, if she's not showing the will intent or remorse to R or if the A is a deal breaker for him. To each his own.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> I agree Conrad, if she's not showing the will intent or remorse to R or if the A is a deal breaker for him. To each his own.


There is truly a difference between someone re-thinking themselves and showing true remorse vs. someone kind of hoping things get better.

And, as counterproductive as it often is to "dig in" and force an apology from an unrepentant soul, it's just as important to enforce your non-negotiable boundaries without flexibility.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

AGree completely and you can't force an apology. If you do it doesn't mean anything.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I honestly think people view this thread but refuse to get involved. I've left the poll anonymous for that reason. Let's see what others have to say!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> I agree Conrad, if she's not showing the will intent or remorse to R or if the A is a deal breaker for him. To each his own.


Didn't split over an affair.


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Different people give different advice. Surely that is part of the beauty of TAM. It is entirely up to you how you respond to that advice. Your response is totally your responsibility. As is the way others respond totally their responsibility.
> 
> Bob




:iagree: If I perceive posts to be insulting, I simply block that member.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

8yearscheating said:


> I get tired of members telling new members to man up or put their big girl panties on.


Tired, even if the advice is needed?



> I want to start by saying that I totally agree with setting boundaries, doing a 180 and sticking to those points with the WS. None of these are "manning up", they are just good practices.


"Manning up" means what it means, no need to redefine it! 



> In my own case, when my WS was still in contact, I told her it was either NC or a separation with her moving out. I also told her separation meant she still paid 1/2 of the mortgage, house expenses and child support and it did not mean I was paying for apartment - not even 1/2. ALl income and accounts like Credit cards and banks and online accounts would be separated. It also meant all extracirricular activities for our daughter had to cease because neither of us could afford to fix the house up for eventual sale and deal with all of the additional expenses of separation while maintain the same lifestyle and extracirricular costs. I put a time limit of 3-6 months dependent on her continued behavior before I would file for D. Once she saw the paper work for separation and we had hard discussions about D, she decided to try and work things out and started NC. This is not manning up, it's a practical approach to dragging the WS out of the fog. I have maintained those boundaries and we are working through the pain of the A very well.


That is manning up, and very well done and I expect things to continue to go well as long as you are in control of yourself and your environment. Nothing more attractive in a man to a woman.



> Now to the part I dislike about the "manning up" crowd. Your wayward spouse did something terrible. They need to confront why they did it, understand it and help the BS work through his pain. They should not be thrown out, kicked to the curb, punished, made to feel inhuman or threatened. They should also not be made to feel in prison under security cmaeras and microphones. Full disclosure must be voluntary or the WS will withdraw to where they are comfortable - back to the A. All of those are abusive.


Many things in this life, to one person is abusive, to another is reasonable. Are whips, chains, and spankings also not abusive? Yet could I tell you stories of how such things are also very good and pleasurable to some people.

The fog of an affair, it is nothing to assume reason or logic or playing nice is going to be effective. An emotional bucket of cold water is what is effective. 

A woman, she will react most strongly to losing the security and desire of the man that she herself is attractive to and whom she respects. 

To put each of these pieces in place is the best chance to be able to reconcile, if reconciling is eventually desirable, which of course is not always. 



> While the WS may react to those behaviors by starting to change, it will most likely be out of fear which will eventually turn into resentment when they begin to do their version of manning up to regain their self esteem. In the case of my WS, those behaviors only served to galvanize her to leave to get away from me thinking I would NEVER heal or deal with the emotions I had. It also convinced her I would remain abusive and threatening forever.


Abusive and threatening is not manning up. 



> Unless you are the sole owner of your house before marriage and your wife has contributed nothing in terms of support by caring for your kids and you or in the form of income, no police department or court is going to allow throwing her out or changing the locks to stand. The WS has every bit as much right to be in the house as you. Separation has to be mutually agreed upon and fair conditions laid down around it. By pushing the WS out, you are also reducing the chances of R and increasing the chances the A activity will increase. Still the boundaries and requirements for not separating must be firm and not deviated from.


This is perfectly agreeable!



> Last but not least, if you yell, scream and get angry you are driving the WS away as well as setting yourself up for spousal abuse charges. Abuse can be verbal, it doesn't have to get physical. Assault is the threat, battery is the act.


Yelling, screaming, getting angry, and ANY other form of losing self control is the opposite of "manning up".



> So when a new member comes on the forum looking for guidance and support, I feel it completely opposite the goals of this forum to challenge their manhood or determination to get through it or reconciling by saying man up.


A valid opinion.

Others, like myself, hold the purpose of this forum should be to encourage behavior that is effective and discourage behavior that is not effective or especially destructive. 

This simple goal is not necessary to over complicate.



> If someone asks if reconcilliation is possible, they are looking for hope. Most are in shock and in no position to make major decisions. Yes set boundaries and requirements to stay together in the same house. If the new member is so bitter that they just want to end it and D, the longer term members need to suggest calming down and setting a strategy plan in place before they make that major jump. Is the WS wrong, hell yes. And well thought out responses and boundaries and action are needed.
> 
> Once the A is stopped recovery for both the LS and WS should begin if R is to work. Both spouses need to work.
> 
> ...


I invite anyone to look at my own post history from the begining, to get the sense of where this forum was centered on several years ago.

A man coming here looking for advice then, well, from my point of view it was better for him to not be here at all rather to see some of the destructive advice given often, to try to apologize more, to try to overlook more , to try to buy nicer gifts, to be more sensitive and forgiving, or to try to be better at expressing his feelings. It was heartbreaking to see the predictable and dismal results of such advice.

Now it is not uncommon to come to this forum and see excellent post after post of powerful and effective analysis and strategic advice, a cohesive group of men backed with experience to guide the newcomer man who is confused and hurting, to give such a hurting man the nuts, bolts, and tools to properly frame his predictament and give such a hurting man the roadmap to success.

So that is why you may be "tired" of seeing such advice, because it is given often because here we share what works and is effective.

Unnerstand this, preconceptions, caricatures, of cavemen or chest beating, this is not manning up. And this is saying nothing of any notion of hurting or abusing a woman in any way.

So I am appreciating your thread and others similar as it as an opportunity to discuss these things together, and learn and heal together, to help the many hurting men who will benefit from learning these tings!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Manning up should not be abuse!

8years I’m not at all certain exactly what you’re asking me to vote about. Can you cite four or five posts that represent what you mean and who posted them.

Many thanks

Bob


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

here's one directed at me that really pissed me off
"No two ways about it, you married a wh*re. She will never change, and there's nothing you can do about it at this point."

I'm not going to spend hours digging them up. Your what I call a sniper AFEH. You take shots on single sentences but refuse to consider everything that is being said.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Ok to clarify for people who see to want to ignore everything I said and hit on single sentences

Being abusive when talking to someone is:
Balling your fist
Puffing your chest
Getting in their face or inside their personal space
Yelling
Growling your words
Intimidation by threats to do something
Ignoring the other persons words or feelings
Not letting someone speak

All of these are abusive, intimidation, threatening, etc. especially when a man is doing it to a woman.

Telling someone they are being too soft and need to man up is questioning their manhood even if you didn't mean it that way. 

Ignoring what they say they want and telling them to give up and move on is not being supportive.

You can't take back the nasty statements by saying something nice in the next post.

You guys are hung up protecting the term man up and alpha. I agree with the common perception of these terms listed in Alpha+beta=BS in the mens clubhouse. I think both labels are worthless as is man up.

A real man shows compassion for others and his wife even if she had an affair. He has the balls to examine himself and his behavior and admit when he was wrong. He doesn't need intimidation to get his point across to his wife. He has the strength to share the power in a relationship to make it better. He doesn't need labels or brass balls to be a man.

Now, I'm sure one of you will try to pick this apart sentence by sentence. If you can't take what was said in total your not man enough.


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## AbsolutelyFree (Jan 28, 2011)

8yearscheating said:


> Ok to clarify for people who see to want to ignore everything I said and hit on single sentences
> 
> Being abusive when talking to someone is:
> Balling your fist
> ...


Has anyone actually suggested doing any of these things in any 'man up' thread, ever?


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

This just popped into my head. This is the thread/ conversation that some guy who just experienced D-Day is going to need to try to determine how he should behve. The more experienced TAM member are the elders around the fire or having coffee in the morning or beers at night saying "No, No, No, don't listen to him This yeah this here is what you need to do to make this work out for you"
So we all need to here it or we live in an insulated world, everyones perception is different. When I was brand new here I was so messed up I would not have grasped mnning up. We all see things through our own lens.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

disbelief said:


> This just popped into my head. This is the thread/ conversation that some guy who just experienced D-Day is going to need to try to determine how he should behve. The more experienced TAM member are the elders around the fire or having coffee in the morning or beers at night saying "No, No, No, don't listen to him This yeah this here is what you need to do to make this work out for you"
> So we all need to here it or we live in an insulated world, everyones perception is different. When I was brand new here I was so messed up I would not have grasped mnning up. We all see things through our own lens.


No matter that the 180 and boundaries were brought to your attention a few times you just didn’t carry them out. I knew it was falling or more or less deaf ears even though you were “trying” to listen. What you were being coached to do seemed so counterintuitive to so you just didn’t persevere with it for more than a day or two at a time.

I think when we all start on these “journeys” we do it with eyes almost closed and we just can’t see a thing. It’s only when we’ve got to a staging post on the journey, like you have now, that we can look back and “suddenly” become fully aware of what was happening.

For me Disbelief I really felt like shaking you, in the same way that two of my buddies physically shook me to wake me out of my stupor. But sometimes we feel the need to wear “kid gloves” because we know and can empathise with what other guys are going through.



There are others that actually in their own quite, nice but passive aggressive way knock the manning up thing. They join in the dialogue but they never ever actually implement any of the recommendations in their marriage. And guess what? Twelve months later they still have the exact same marriage problems.

Bob


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

AFEH said:


> No matter that the 180 and boundaries were brought to your attention a few times you just didn’t carry them out. I knew it was falling or more or less deaf ears even though you were “trying” to listen. What you were being coached to do seemed so counterintuitive to so you just didn’t persevere with it for more than a day or two at a time.
> 
> I think when we all start on these “journeys” we do it with eyes almost closed and we just can’t see a thing. It’s only when we’ve got to a staging post on the journey, like you have now, that we can look back and “suddenly” become fully aware of what was happening.
> 
> ...


I take that as an accurate assessment but I have been shaken. I think it was the simultaneous jolts from TAM, internally and my w being stupid. So nothing fell on deaf ears I am just thick headed.

In all reality if I were not on TAM, I would still prob have a W in an A and I would be stuck. I am rereading things from months ago that then did not make sense and now they do........darn psychology.
I appreciate all input, the dogpile can be hard but hey gotta learn somehow!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

disbelief said:


> I take that as an accurate assessment but I have been shaken. I think it was the simultaneous jolts from TAM, internally and my w being stupid. So nothing fell on deaf ears I am just thick headed.
> 
> In all reality if I were not on TAM, I would still prob have a W in an A and I would be stuck. I am rereading things from months ago that then did not make sense and now they do........darn psychology.
> I appreciate all input, the dogpile can be hard but hey gotta learn somehow!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you’ve still a way to go on this particular journey. For example if you do separate things will become even clearer to you while you are separated. “Separation” in and of itself is massive after a long term marriage. It’s an emotional and psychological as well as a physical separation. And it’s quite literally separation as in unwinding, untangling from one another.

But separation need not be the end of your marriage. It may though be something you need to do to get your marriage back on track sometime in the future.

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> here's one directed at me that really pissed me off. "No two ways about it, you married a wh*re. She will never change, and there's nothing you can do about it at this point."


Really pissed you off in like ANGER? Enough anger to come here and hit out INDISCRIMINATELY about manning up? What on earth has the post you quoted got to do about manning up anyway?



8yearscheating said:


> I'm not going to spend hours digging them up.


What after maligning you can’t even be bothered to post what you’re on about? Sure seems to answer the INDISCRIMINATE nature of your attack. So it’s not the manning up stuff that got you ANGRY enough to start this topic off. But it is about a person calling your wife a wh*re.



8yearscheating said:


> Your what I call a sniper AFEH. You take shots on single sentences but refuse to consider everything that is being said.


That’s it? That’s really it?



So no examples and nothing to do with manning up. Just a REALLY ANGRY 8years because another guy who doesn’t know either you or your wife calls her a wh*re. Think about it.

Bob


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Okay AFEH, I'm going to lay out why a strict adherence to one persons beliefs and direction will not work for everyone and use myself as the example. I'll start by saying I never read this while in the depths of the period after D day and had no idea what 180 was. I'm actually glad I didn't stick to this script 100% or I would not be where I am today. I've read numerous books as well and visited read a lot on the MB website. From ALL of those sources I developed my own plan that fit my situation and how I felt.

So, here goes my opinion on this plan - first the plan from your thread:



AFEH said:


> Q: What is 180 and how does it work? Submitted by Making It
> A: 180 is a list of behaviours from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. I would highly suggest that any new BS begin these behaviours as soon as possible. I am convinced that if I had implemented them, I would still be married. In retrospect, I did everything besides 180. I looked pathetic. No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive. (Making it)
> 
> So here's the list:
> ...



These three points are my mind completely wrong and I'll list why after I list the points:

Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future. 
Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS. 
Don't ask for reassurances.

Discussion about the future is what moving toward reconciliation is all about. Why the hell would you close off discussion on your goal?

Having my wife's eldest sister who she admired and respected greatly understand the whole situation and talk to my wife was one of the best things that happened. I agree you have to be very careful in this regard because involving the entire family can cause your spouse to be very angry at being exposed and embarassed. Also some family members may not support your position or desire to R and may actually sabotage your efforts. In my case, this really got my wife moving out the fog and thinking.

As far as asking for reassurances, how do you know if what you have been doing to change yourself or the things you have been discussing are having any impact if you don't ask where they are and whether or not they are leaning toward R. Again, shutting down communication is counterproductive in my mind.


More of her points and my responses:

Don't schedule dates together. 
Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable. 
Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life! 

Scheduling dates is suggested by many other therapists as a way to start to showing your changes and to start to build trust in you and start to rebuild the good side of the love you had before. I don't buy this one at all. If you can't keep the date totally off the A and avoid arguments and keep it just a relaxing loving time together then don't do it. Wait until you can have the date that way.

Not saying I love you is a form of intimidation and with holding your feelings. It's intimidation because you are trying to make your spouse feel that you are truly and finally gone with the sole purpose of trying to get her to come back. This is a mind game and dishonest.

Do more than ACT, I'm not going to ACT that again is mind games. Truly move on with on your life, sorry, that is not what I wanted and I wasn't going to pretend that I did. I did set my boundaries and requirements for R and what I would not continue to tolerate. That is honesty and if you can't walk the walk you are asking her to walk you are playing games.

Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent. 
Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy! 

These I agree with though being cheerful is again acting. I think the WS needs to know how hurt you are.

When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to! 
If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested. 
Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the WS)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? with out them! 

I agree you need to reduce pressure on your spouse to give them the room and time to think. Constantly badgering them won't help.
But doing this to seem uninterested is again acting and intimidating to the spouse - a game.

As far as asking whereabouts, that was part of my requirements to R! Seeming disinterested is again game playing and dishonest. She needed to understand my expectations for transparency and stop the affair. 

No I wasn't moving on and wasn't going to pretend I was. She kew I would separate and D if things didn't change and that I was serious about it because I discussed with her my plans and discussion with our lawyer. More game playing that is dishonest and intimidating. If I'd followed this method, my would would have simply said file because that was where she was and it was the simplest way out for her.

Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing. 
No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

Nasty - absolutely not, Angry - she already knows I am and it's something we need to work through together why play act differently, just don't be abusive in your anger - walk away and calm down then restart the conversation, cold - agreed - that's not in my heart either - i Still loved her and made sure she knew I did. Pull back and be unavailable - absolutely not. I wanted her to know I was there for her and willing to work through it. Again this is play acting. The last statement, yes but not to the play acting level. Her knowing I was determined to do whatever it took to work through it including changing the things in myself that made her fall out love with me and not throwing in the towel to R so long as she agreed to NC and transparency was the goal of the two options I presented to her. I was resolute in ending it if she continued in contact and in the A. I was also resolute in working with her to allow her feel comfortable with me and be the better choice - not giving up. It was what I wanted. It was not needy or pathetic. Moody, you bet I was and again hiding it was play acting. Showing contentment and happiness - why? That's not how I felt - play acting again and dishonest. Showing her I would work on myself and not be an interrogator, would walk away and calm down instead of attacking or getting disrespectful in an argument was what started moving her back to me. She saw I could change and stated to me that was what gave her the strength to try.

Don't be available - horse hockey - my wife needed to know she had safe haven with me discussing the way to move forward without me being abusive, angry or intimidating or game playing. I created that haven and she responded to it by opening up and trying. I didn't want her to think I was missing -counterproductive to my goals and again game playing and dishonest.


All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation! 

Total horse hockey. If I don't understand her issues, how do I work on being the better choice? How do either one of you start to understand the wedge that drove you apart. Back off and give her space to think and consider her options - absolutely. Not initiating a discussion is one way to relieve the pressure. I did try to do that as much as I could. Obviously my reason for doing that was not the intent of this author.


Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF! 
Don't be overly enthusiastic. 

Agreed from the perspective that these things will only cause your spouse to feel intimidated and scared and withdraw. Not what will make them feel safe and comfortable coming back to you - in fact it will drive them away and galvanize them that you cannot change and the right thing to do is end it. Taken in the context of putting on act.....
Not being overly enthusiastic - best you consider both the worst and best that can happen and plan for both. Hiding that you are committed to working out - again horse hockey.

Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all! 
Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more! 

Boy that first sentence is WAY off base. You are bing disrepectful arguing about how your spouse feels. They have their feelings and you need to understand them. Yes arguing causes them to withdraw because they feel you are ignoring how they feel and that only causes them to try and make you understand - if you want to call that making their feelings stronger - yes. In her overall context - horse hockey (I'm going to start using HH for horse hockey because BS also stands for betrayed spouse). This is what I call using the right words to draw you into her over all context. Touching a cord with you as it were. The last part of this statement is dead on - you must listen and understand your spouses feelings. While the use a very black brush to paint your past actions - it is the way they feel and you need to understand it to start addressing what actions or feelings they either misunderstood, hurt them, drove them away and ultimately left them open to an A. I am absolutely not responsible for the bad choices my wife made having an A. I am absolutely responsible for the things I did that caused her to fall out of love with me.


Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything. 

The first statement - dead on. Don't be provoked into angry disrespectful responses or respond to tirades by the WS. You too deserve the respect you are showing her if your doing the things I list. Tell the WS to come back to you when they show some respect. Don't cut them down. Do listen - there may some shred of the problems they see buried in their tirade. Do walk away before you blow you top and do what they are doing. 

The last part of the statement HH. This lack of communication, openness and honesty is precisely what got marriage to the point it was in and left my wife feeling unloved and receptive to an A. She would respond to my tirades by heading straight to the OM. We never truly resolved issues because she ran from conflict even when I didn't respond with an explosion. She shut down and I usually read it as she was OK when in fact she was far from it. So you are making a grave mistake by just walking away and not coming back later and working though the issue and you will end up in larger trouble in the long run.

Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil. 
Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly. 

Agree 100%. You need to stick to your goals, boundaries and requirements for R and not waffle. Most importantly, can the angry disrespectful loud responses and work hard on talking in a normal, respectful manner. These will show your WS you are truly trying to get to the root of the troubles in the marriage without driving them away and making them scared to discuss them. Be the safe haven they need, be the better choice. Again, taken in her overall context – she is advocating play acting and deceit and dishonesty.

Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write. 

Agree only in the context that consistency in your behavior shows you can change and truly will not give up on R. The 180 as she has written it and it’s overall context – HH.

Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy. 

Again suggesting play acting deceit and dishonesty in the overall context. I wanted my my wife to see the pain she had caused me, understand it and own it. Those feelings in her were the start of remorse and her own self examination – the start of not focusing on just her feelings but mine as well. Being needy or desperate solely and piling on the pressure to change, no. She needed the time to process her own feelings and mine.


Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care! 
The first statement yes. The last is presumptuous and falls into the trap that your spouse has their shields up, is refusing to face themselves and what they have done. Deep down they do care or they would be long gone and divorced from you. Another example of playing your feelings by drawing you in with a positive then hitting her agenda again.

Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behaviour. 
True to a point - your spouse has their shields up, is refusing to face themselves and what they have done. They will use that very negative black brush to paint your past actions and they are doing it as a justification for their actions – they can’t face themselves in the mirror. But buried in all the bravado – big girl panties or manning up they are doing (not in the context people on here espouse – but in the negative sense), are tidbits of how they feel and what drove them away. Look for those and try to understand them.

Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!" 
Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message. 
When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behaviour that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW." (Poodlepapa)

Agree completely in the context I have put forward – not in this woman’s context. She reverses herself by saying “explain” – if I’ve cut off all communication how can I explain? Mysterious – HH – I want my wife to know exactly where I am and where I’m coming from.

In total this plan is deceitful, dishonest, intimidating to your spouse with the underlying result of being abusive, play acting, prevents open communication, prevents the process of R from starting. It espouses exactly what I want my WS to get away from and how can expect her to do that when I’m setting exactly the wrong example?

As far as pushing as this as a gospel to success – HH. Like everything I read, there are good points and bad points. No plan fits every relationship or R or D. This one is especially off track and presumes your spouse cannot be convinced you are the better choice without resorting to the same things she has done with the A. If your spouse can’t find her way back, I’m my instance I had laid out where I was going to go clearly and without tricks or intimidation and she knew that was where it would end up. If it did end up in D, it would, but not without me knowing I had done everything I could to save it. Some people can’t get past the A – it’s a deal breaker and I respect their decision. Get it done and move on – don’t play games or get revenge. Hopefully those people will still do the self examination to understand what truly happened to their marriage and be the wiser to prevent it from happening again. Not to take the blame for the affair, but to learn what went wrong in the relationship and change themselves for the future.

I read a ton. I picked what made sense for me and my situation and thankfully I made the right choices. My wife is back DEEPLY in love with me. We have specific boundaries regarding the OM and all other men AND women. I still have a huge cross to bear with 20 years and 3 men. I am still processing what happened and working through most of it on my own as it should be. She is there to support me in every way when I hit a trigger or get stuck. She too is processing, owning her actions, trying to understand why and discussing all of it with me. From those discussions we are BOTH learning, making the marriage safe for both of us and building up a staunch wall we can both rely on to prevent a future affair. I will never trust to same blind level I did before and that’s good because it makes me stay vigilant to her feelings and happiness – the best defense against another A. This will be a forever effort on both our parts. I wish I would have known what I know now, I could have prevented this A.
So AFEH – I did NOT follow the 180 and hadn’t even read it. I’m glad you put it up so it can be discussed openly – I thank you for that. I will continue to state my views to all members and NOT stand behind this as written.

In this statement you passively try to discredit me without fully understanding or explaining my position.
“There are others that actually in their own quite, nice but passive aggressive way knock the manning up thing. They join in the dialogue but they never ever actually implement any of the recommendations in their marriage. And guess what? Twelve months later they still have the exact same marriage problems.”

You also misstate by saying never implement ANY because I have implemented the right things for me and some of them are in the 180 though NOT in the full context of it. This is precisely the sniping I was referring to. People tell me I call them out personally and I need to respect opposing viewpoints. I do respect opposing viewpoints but I will tell you DIRECTLY what I think and not hide it. If you take it personally and don’t consider my viewpoint, you are guilty of exactly what people charge me with. Oh and I’m glad you have a crystal ball and can predict will happen in my very successful efforts to date and wan to inject fear, worry and mayhem into my future – thanks for that.

These are precisely the things I voice my opinion about to new members. Some will grab any straw thrown at them and try to implement it to save their marriage. NONE of us has the right to force an opinion as the only way to safety and success which I why I always propose to them they make up their own mind and follow BOTH their heart and their gut and not some scripted plan. I also try to lend credence to both points of view so they can decide for themselves and specifically list what I did and it’s results so they understand the viewpoint I’m coming from. Many only say do this, follow the 180 and don’t deviate, man up without explaining what it does NOT mean.

Question my opinion and offer yours. Don't challenge how I feel and tell me my feelings are wrong because I'll just tell you to piss off like your spouse would.


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## LuvMyH (Nov 11, 2009)

Let me just preface this by saying I did not read all of this thread and do not wish to engage in the debate. However, I read the 180 plan for the first time after the op posted the invitation in the Ladies Lounge. It describes almost exactly my behavior during my husband's affair and during his withdrawal from the affair. The strange part is that I was unaware of the infidelity at the time. 

He was being dismissive of me and just being a jerk, in general. I didn't know why. I kept my cool when he blew up over little things. I stayed busy with my sisters and their families. When I tried to start a conversation and he looked at me like I was intruding in his life, I calmly walked away and found something else to do. Etc. Etc.

Eventually, he started talking to me and telling me he loved me again. The funny thing is it was the improvements in his attitude that made me curious and it didn't take much snooping for me to find out what had happened. He was already back in the marriage when I found out. For that, I'm grateful. I don't know how I would have dealt with it if I'd known at the time why he was acting that way.

So, I can tell you that the 180 worked in my marriage. What I can't tell you is whether I would have gone that route, knowingly. I imagine it would be hard to stick to when you know what's happening. 

Don't know if that helps at all, I was just a little stunned when I read about The 180 and saw that I had done that exact thing and didn't even know it. Just wanted to share.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

8yearscheating, you tout that your wife has turned around and is deeply in love with you despite you not doing the 180, and that's fine that you think that way. In your thread you stated that she finally gets it, yet this is merely a month ago. You are taking your wife's word for it that she's remorseful and that the A is over because you despise any attempts at verifying this, even though she has lied to you since the beginning of your marriage. 

You said she cheated in year 0, and you have been married 27 years. AND she has had multiple affairs, culminating in giving birth to an OC and continuing to have a relationship with the real father (not you). Logically, this means that your whole marriage was a lie from the get go. Be offended if you want to, but technically your wife is a serial cheater.

Now the part that doesn't make sense to me, you say you have your boundaries in place about not accepting if she resumes her affair, correct? Yet you will not monitor her activities because you feel its abusive and she gets offended by it. So how do you know that the A is ended? How do you know if they just haven't taken it underground? Are you just simply taking a leap of faith? That seems foolhardy considering the fact that she has lied and cheated on you for 27 years. She certainly isn't going to tell you if she is still in contact with the OM. 

I find it arrogant that you are dismissing the 180 and pimping your thread and telling others advice considering as of only last month, your wife "didn't get it". Okay fine if you've been in TRUE R for at least a year or more, but spouting off that your way works after only a month at best? 

You say you've done a lot of reading, and I believe you. So have you tried reading forums that cater to OW/OM to get a feel for the mindset of a cheater? I know I've read and lurk on one. You know, where OW high five each other over their As, and they post Happy Endings threads when their MM leaves their spouse? I suggest you try. EVERYTHING I have read in those types of forums tells me WW in As, care nothing for their BH while they are in their affair. They post how after DDay, their husbands break down and try to win them back. They merely say it's too little, too late when their betrayed husband tries to WOO them back, because their focus in on the OM/MM, not their BH. MOST of them post that they will just tone down the A until the dust settles, and when it settles, they will resume the A until the HAPPY ENDING, when they leave their husband and or they leave their betrayed husband. Some post how their As are ending, and HOW DIFFICULT it is for them to break it off because they love their MM. They usually contact their MM or the MM contacts them, then the A is back on.

I mean no offense, but it's my opinion that you are setting yourself up for FALSE R. And your going on about being successful reminds me of an old story: The Emperor's New Clothes. You need to see if your wife is consistent with her actions over a period of time. Only then will you know if you are in True R and not False R (where your wife and the OM have only been waiting for the dust to settle and your guard is down before resuming their A).


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Check your PM


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

8Y,
Bob is a highly intelligent, consistently rational and constructive contributor.

Unfortunately someone else said some ugly stuff about your W and that is just wrong. Generally the mods are good about banning folks who are not civilized.

As to your particular implementation of a 180 - seems like it worked for you and for your marriage which is certainly a good thing. 

As for "individual" line items in the 180 - I tend not to debate them since each person has a unique situation. For instance there is no question that in some cases the WS's family members can be a huge asset. In others a huge liability. The BS is the only person with insight into that and they should decide how to address that piece of the puzzle based on their local knowledge.

The bit about this whole conversation that I find the oddest is simply this. The "post" that hurt you the worst is the type of thing Bob wouldn't post in a million years. He is first and foremost a true gentleman. Dragging a post written by a rude and angry third party into a discussion about manning up makes no sense at all. 

If you feel a need (which you may) to address THAT post, then deal with the person who called your W a bad name directly. 



8yearscheating said:


> Okay AFEH, I'm going to lay out why a strict adherence to one persons beliefs and direction will not work for everyone and use myself as the example. I'll start by saying I never read this while in the depths of the period after D day and had no idea what 180 was. I'm actually glad I didn't stick to this script 100% or I would not be where I am today. I've read numerous books as well and visited read a lot on the MB website. From ALL of those sources I developed my own plan that fit my situation and how I felt.
> 
> So, here goes my opinion on this plan - first the plan from your thread:
> 
> ...


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Mem - I agree Bob has heart in the right place. He is pissed at me and has thrown tantrums at other people when he was in bad mood and really beat on them them for not following his advise or the 180 exactly to his liking. His posts are generally to negative side not very often encouraging. Sometimes they are and sometimes they offer great advice. I know he's not a bad person, he is just too negative for me lot of the time. Want so see some of the way off base comments recently by others - Look at Elphs thread. Someone by the name of Torchwood goes way out of line and I do call him on it. SOmeone else on the same hread tells him to not worry about his WS suicide threats and tell her to go jump off a bridge! Others call this poster on it,but it's still there for others to read. Unfortuantely, I think Affaircare and her husband have been absent a lot lately and pray they are not having serious problem either personally or otherwise. There are also so many posts, the monitors can't keep up. Unfortuantely this drives new users away when they get piled on with negative or way off base posts. Yes they are big boys and girls and can take care of themselves. Most do it by never coming back. Other may be taking these off base message and acting on them,!

All I'm asking people is to be more sensitive and specific and not pile on and be negative. New members are seeking help and many are grasping at straws and will take comments verbatim. We have to be careful. We are dealing with peoples lives, marriages and some cases people who far too close to the edge of suicide. I'll admit I came far too close.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Seek first to understand, and then to be understood. 

This is something that I personally am not consistent on. Generally the best response to someone else'e first post is a set of questions. Instead, our knee jerk reaction is to make "suggestions". 

It is also true that some subset of the population here is angry enough so that their advice includes a certain amount of "and you can "punish" your spouse this way/that way". And that is quite sad since the real goal here is to help people grow, and where needed protect themselves but never to hurt their partner. 




8yearscheating said:


> Mem - I agree Bob has heart in the right place. He is pissed at me and has thrown tantrums at other people when he was in bad mood and really beat on them them for not following his advise or the 180 exactly to his liking. His posts are generally to negative side not very often encouraging. Sometimes they are and sometimes they offer great advice. I know he's not a bad person, he is just too negative for me lot of the time. Want so see some of the way off base comments recently by others - Look at Elphs thread. Someone by the name of Torchwood goes way out of line and I do call him on it. SOmeone else on the same hread tells him to not worry about his WS suicide threats and tell her to go jump off a bridge! Others call this poster on it,but it's still there for others to read. Unfortuantely, I think Affaircare and her husband have been absent a lot lately and pray they are not having serious problem either personally or otherwise. There are also so many posts, the monitors can't keep up. Unfortuantely this drives new users away when they get piled on with negative or way off base posts. Yes they are big boys and girls and can take care of themselves. Most do it by never coming back. Other may be taking these off base message and acting on them,!
> 
> All I'm asking people is to be more sensitive and specific and not pile on and be negative. New members are seeking help and many are grasping at straws and will take comments verbatim. We have to be careful.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

ANd I did ask the specific poster that called my wife some real bad names to leave my thread and told him I didn't appreciate his words about the woman I still loved. They were fighting words to me. ALso in Bob's case I do understand where he speaks from.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

On elast thing MEM - the following wason a thread where I WAS THE ONLY ONE questioning pushing a 180 too far. and this was bobs post to him in quotes:

In this statement you passively try to discredit me without fully understanding or explaining my position.

“There are others that actually in their own quite, nice but passive aggressive way knock the manning up thing. They join in the dialogue but they never ever actually implement any of the recommendations in their marriage. And guess what? Twelve months later they still have the exact same marriage problems.”

You also misstate by saying never implement ANY because I have implemented the right things for me and some of them are in the 180 though NOT in the full context of it. This is precisely the sniping I was referring to. People tell me I call them out personally and I need to respect opposing viewpoints. I do respect opposing viewpoints but I will tell you DIRECTLY what I think and not hide it. If you take it personally and don’t consider my viewpoint, you are guilty of exactly what people charge me with. Oh and I’m glad you have a crystal ball and can predict will happen in my very successful efforts to date and wan to inject fear, worry and mayhem into my future – thanks for that.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> We are dealing with peoples lives, marriages and some cases people who far too close to the edge of suicide. I'll admit I came far too close.


That’s why I haven’t retaliated too much to your personal attacks. It would take some grace on your behalf to recognise that.

Bob


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Let's shake and put it behind us AFEH. I know you mean well in your posts. But please understand why I take offense. It is not just you, it's the sum total of the crap that gets posted that fires me up. I do value your opinion. Unfortunately I cna't forward the message I sent Lord Mayhem about what I'm still doing becasue I didn't save it and it this board doesn't seem to do this automatically or I can can't seem find how to set it so it does. Please ask him to forward a copy of my message. 

Lord Mayhem - if you see this please forward my last PM to AFEH and MEM.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Went searching and found the default to save sent


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> Let's shake and put it behind us AFEH. I know you mean well in your posts. But please understand why I take offense. It is not just you, it's the sum total of the crap that gets posted that fires me up. I do value your opinion. Unfortunately I cna't forward the message I sent Lord Mayhem about what I'm still doing becasue I didn't save it and it this board doesn't seem to do this automatically or I can can't seem find how to set it so it does. Please ask him to forward a copy of my message.
> 
> Lord Mayhem - if you see this please forward my last PM to AFEH and MEM.


Maybe you want to look into that “getting fired up”. Why you do it.

Rage is indiscriminate and things said in a rage cannot be taken back. All that people will remember is your anger. You mentioned you’ve raged (or some such term) for twenty years or more. Maybe instead of expending your energy here by hitting out at others, who after all are here to help, look into why you rage and hit out. It’s not “manly” to rage even though many men think it is. It is manly though to catch, control and manage your negative emotions when you feel a rage coming on.

How many times have you had to go into a recovery situation after one of your rages? I’ve been there. If you’re interested in learning about these things let me know and I’ll post some book recommendations.

Bob


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I am interested. I am able to control in public settings and at work. I've learned to control with my wife through this reconcilitation. I will try very hard to control it in my posts. I guess the reason the negativity makes me rage at posters is it angered me deeply when it was done to me. People just don't get the impact it has on the victim or the WS. I apologize for the negative commments I made to you. I also understand an apology doesn't fix it.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> I am interested. I am able to control in public settings and at work. I've learned to control with my wife through this reconcilitation. I will try very hard to control it in my posts. I guess the reason the negativity makes me rage at posters is it angered me deeply when it was done to me. People just don't get the impact it has on the victim or the WS. I apologize for the negative commments I made to you. I also understand an apology doesn't fix it.


It’s a strange old life sometimes, a life in which we learn little from the joyful and blissful times as we’re just happy to experience them, it’s when we’re really in the zone.

It’s the dark times we learn most from if we have the will to take a good long look at ourselves and learn and make changes to ourselves. Some changes can happen over night but most of the really big ones take weeks, months or even years, just depends on our starting situation.

I think a lot of men haven’t much of a clue about their emotions but they’re what actually drive every part of our lives. Have a read of Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman. Also have a read of Awareness by Anthony de Mello. Both were life changing books for me.

Thanks for your apology.

Bob


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I wrote them down AFEH and will find them and read them.

Sorry to say this, but mywife discussed with me last night her feelings about my use of this forum. SHe doesn't like the fact that I'm discussing her affair, my reaction to it and the amount of what she considers private information even if I never use her name or mine and it's completely anonymous. I told her I frequent it to help me past roadblocks and to try to pay back some the support others gave me. She told me I didn't have to stop if I didn't want to, she was just letting me know how she felt and she didn't want me to feel resentful that she was asking me to stop - the decision was mine. Knowing that it bothered her, I told her that I would say my goodbyes but still would remain available to certain people. So if you ever need anything like someone to talk to or a sounding board, please don't hesitate to leave me a message. I'm sure I'll drift through once in a while just to see how everyones doing. 

I greatly appreciate all the support people have given me and posting on others forums has helped to gain perspective in my own situation. Thanks for your support, the laughs and fun comments.

8


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Personally I think you are getting a lot of release here and it’s “doing you good”. That we all need an outlet where we can help and be helped in times of trouble. That marriage can lead to isolation if we are not very careful.

That by talking to others we are able to put ourselves into perspective and better understand who it is we are. That out of reading a book or browsing through TAM we need only pick up two or three things and those things can be life changing for ourselves.

And to be perfectly honest with you I would have said to my wife “Aren’t you HAPPY for me that I’ve found somewhere of value that is helping me out? And doesn’t that in and of itself take some of the pressure off of you?”.

But that’s me and my opinions.

Bob


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Actually while I would have "said" what Bob suggests I would have been "thinking": Every controlling spouse tries to "isolate" their partner from any external influence that might cause the "controlled" spouse to question the status quo. 

And so - if she still pressed the point after round one, I would simply come back with "Why aren't you HAPPY for me that I have found a constructive, helpful resource like this"?

This reverses the polarity of the conversation from "me" having to justify what I am doing, to "you" having to justify your attempts to pressure me to stop. 




AFEH said:


> Personally I think you are getting a lot of release here and it’s “doing you good”. That we all need an outlet where we can help and be helped in times of trouble. That marriage can lead to isolation if we are not very careful.
> 
> That by talking to others we are able to put ourselves into perspective and better understand who it is we are. That out of reading a book or browsing through TAM we need only pick up two or three things and those things can be life changing for ourselves.
> 
> ...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Actually while I would have "said" what Bob suggests I would have been "thinking": Every controlling spouse tries to "isolate" their partner from any external influence that might cause the "controlled" spouse to question the status quo.
> 
> And so - if she still pressed the point after round one, I would simply come back with "Why aren't you HAPPY for me that I have found a constructive, helpful resource like this"?
> 
> This reverses the polarity of the conversation from "me" having to justify what I am doing, to "you" having to justify your attempts to pressure me to stop.


There’s far more empathy and compassion for 8years and his situation here than perhaps the guy is able to recognise at the moment. Maybe that’s in part what his wife fears in some way and why she's putting a stop to it.

Bob


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Stopping coming to this forum because a WS says so, not a good sign. 

8yearscheating, I hope you are able to find what it is you are needing to help, including a healthy means to put yourself and your own desires foremost from your own leadership and not your woman's or anyone else's. 

I do wish you well.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I understand her discomfort and want to eliminate it. I'm not having that many issues that I need the forum as help. I was enjoying helping others but it doesn't need to come at the discomfort of my wife. A small thing I can give her. She has given up some really large things for my comfort of late. Things that have been issues for me in the marriage unrelated to the A.

Her other concern was that my involvemnt here was preventing me from moving forward and reminding me of the A. She left it up to me. SHe was not happy with the maount of time had been spending on here. I have ben pressing her to focus more on us and spend mroe time with me. It would have contradictory for me to keep up the amount of time I was consuming on here. Like many things, I will do what I want in times she's not around. SHe knows I am not leaving the forum all together and will continue to drop in from time to time.


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