# Passive aggressive or am I crazy??



## Katiebird

I've posted and deleted and now am posting again. I want to see if I am crazy. Married 20 years - second marriage. I think my husband is passive aggressive and I really don't know what to do about it. Some things he has done . . . forgotten birthdays (multiple) forgotten anniversaries (multiple), started and never finished multiple househould projects . . . one - a major renovation - is going on unfinished for 10 + years . . . "forgets" to tell me when his kids are coming over for dinner, visits, if I am sick (which thankfully is rare) - he pretty much ignores me - etc. Tends to be at his worst when we are either traveling or have company . . . usually my adult kids and their families. Sometimes he is ok but sometimes, when I ask for a small favor - retreive an item or something, it turns into a major issue - he makes it a grand point of doing exactly what he wants to do . . . or pretending he doesn't hear and then HE gets mad at me saying he is blamed for everything. Then he turns around and acts as if everything is fine. Because it is usually when we are around other people I am not able to call him on it without creating a huge scene - which I won't do - and I think he knows it. But I am finding I am resenting it and then I am refusing to talk with him . . . which I think just feeds into it . . . making him feel like the poor victim. I am at my wits end. This ruined the last few days of a visit with kids and grandkids, since he tends to sulk and avoid everyone when he is like this. The other thing I need to point out is that he is *extremely *critical of everyone. The neighbors are all idiots. His boss is a jerk and an idiot as are all the people he works with. Neither of us are young chickens and I know that much about his childhood has made him like this. At one point, several years ago, I told him I thought he was passive aggressive and gave him an article to read and he said, "yup, you are probably right . . ." and that was the end of that. If anything gets done, plans made, research on anything like refinance, etc., I have to be the one to do it. I am just plain tired of this. I have tried counseling before and did not find it terribly useful and now money is even tighter. So I am feeling a bit stuck.[/SIZE][/FONT]


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## EleGirl

Please remove the size from your font size. It's too small to read easily. the default size is much better.


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## EleGirl

You cannot change him. You can only change the way you interact with him.


Have you done any online searches for books and material on passive agressive behavior? You need tools for how to change the way you interact with him.


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## JuliaP

oh god, I was just exhausted reading your post. He sounds like an ass! And yes, classic passive aggressive.


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## Katiebird

Yes I have done some research. What, specifically, would you suggest that I change in my reaction to his behavior? Call him on it immediately in front of everyone? Ignore it completely?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chelle D

I wouldn't really say passive-aggressive (at least my understanding of it).. but more like a complaining soul. Never happy. Just sounds like you have finally gotten the last straw of his unpleasant attitude toward everything lumped onto your camel back & now you are ready to shrug the whole load.

I don't blame you one bit. But, in fairness to your mean spirited hubby... You've put up with him all this time. you've let him talk negatively, plan negatively & been foolish with the money. It's going to take a bit for him to see the light & to see that you are done putting up with it all.


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## EleGirl

Katiebird said:


> Yes I have done some research. What, specifically, would you suggest that I change in my reaction to his behavior? Call him on it immediately in front of everyone? Ignore it completely?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would do whatever is 180 degrees diffent from what he would expect you to do. 

There is a book that talks about this.. "Divorce Busting: A Step-by-Step Approach to Making Your Marriage Loving Again" by Michele Weiner-Davis.


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## Katiebird

EleGirl said:


> I would do whatever is 180 degrees diffent from what he would expect you to do.
> 
> There is a book that talks about this.. "Divorce Busting: A Step-by-Step Approach to Making Your Marriage Loving Again" by Michele Weiner-Davis.


In all honesty, I have tried just about everything, bringing things to his attention as they happen, ignoring things entirely, writing him love letters, writing him angry letters, using "I" phrases rather than "you" , trying to simply sit down & talk w/him when I am not angry/frustrated and the results are the same. He sits and says nothing. No reaction, comment, etc. or says that I am treating him like a child and then walks away. I have bought several books and did do some counseling. He will not go to counseling. Perhaps I need to just laugh it off and forget about it. BTW, he no longer sleeps w/me - says the cat bothers him - this after 10 years of not mentioning it. Instead he is sleeping on a bed he had when he was married the first time and refuses to get rid of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Katiebird

Chelle D said:


> I wouldn't really say passive-aggressive (at least my understanding of it).. but more like a complaining soul. Never happy. Just sounds like you have finally gotten the last straw of his unpleasant attitude toward everything lumped onto your camel back & now you are ready to shrug the whole load.
> 
> I don't blame you one bit. But, in fairness to your mean spirited hubby... You've put up with him all this time. you've let him talk negatively, plan negatively & been foolish with the money. It's going to take a bit for him to see the light & to see that you are done putting up with it all.


_Posted via Mobile Device_

Really? You don't see P/A in this? I can't remember how many birthdays and anniversaries he has forgotten. If you talk w/ anyone they would tell you what a nice, easy going guy he is. But at home, if I ask him to do something it is "are you trying to start something w/me?" or just ignore my request. On trips he can be fine with everyone and stop talking to me & I haven't a clue why. Then he does things like hurry way ahead if me on sightseeing trips. As for putting up w/ this - yes I have but not without trying to talk w/ him about it. It seems like I am just going to have to completely ignore his behavior and let him do what he will.


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## AFEH

Katiebird said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Really? You don't see P/A in this? I can't remember how many birthdays and anniversaries he has forgotten. If you talk w/ anyone they would tell you what a nice, easy going guy he is. But at home, if I ask him to do something it is "are you trying to start something w/me?" or just ignore my request. On trips he can be fine with everyone and stop talking to me & I haven't a clue why. Then he does things like hurry way ahead if me on sightseeing trips. As for putting up w/ this - yes I have but not without trying to talk w/ him about it. It seems like I am just going to have to completely ignore his behavior and let him do what he will.


PA is very deeply rooted behaviour. It’s right down there in the foundations and cornerstones of the PA’s psyche, their mind, consciousness and it’s right up there in their highest levels of awareness and behaviour.

PA’s know what they do, they know why they do what they do and they know what the consequential affects of their behaviour on their “target” will be. A lot of that consequential behaviour is that their target feels like they’re going crazy.


PA’s want to hurt and cause pain and they’re exceptionally good at doing it while at the same time covering up their tracks with deceits, lies, blame shifting and denials such that they’re never “caught”. PA’s are absolute experts at what they do because they started out at a very young age and with experience honed their skills.

Will he change? NO. At least he wont change while he’s with you because he’s marked your card many times over the years you’ve been together and has all his grudges stacked up and ready to be used against you. It’s doubtful but possible he’ll change if you leave him and he goes with someone new. But that will only be in the honeymoon phase, if she upsets him at all his PA behaviour will raise it’s ugly head again. Although there are exceptions with those who finally “see the light” and work on changing themselves.

You know what the future holds for you if you stay with him. That particular future is guaranteed. Just depends how much self-esteem, self-respect and of how much of a risk taker you are to start off out by yourself. One things for sure that you cannot guarantee and that’s that you’ll get a second chance at “life”.


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## Katiebird

AFEH said:


> PA is very deeply rooted behaviour. It’s right down there in the foundations and cornerstones of the PA’s psyche, their mind, consciousness and it’s right up there in their highest levels of awareness and behaviour.
> 
> PA’s want to hurt and cause pain and they’re exceptionally good at doing it while at the same time covering up their tracks with deceits, lies, blame shifting and denials such that they’re never “caught”. PA’s are absolute experts at what they do because they started out at a very young age and with experience honed their skills.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you know a P/A quite well. So you agree that these appear to be P/A tendencies? Sometimes I wonder whether he REALLY realizes things. Some of the things that happen would be funny if they weren't so sad . . . or so annoying . . . it is like being married to a shape shifter.
> 
> I know that part of the issue is due to intimidation and physical abuse as a child - so I am trying to keep that in mind. He is also aware of that & has tried to overcome that in raising his child.
> 
> What is compounding my frustration is that he picks the times that should be fun, time with family, vacations etc to be at his worst - and I don't feel I can call him on it at that moment. I don't want to make him feel worse/embarrased, but at the same time I want him to see what he is doing WHEN he is doing it. One time before a family vacation I told him that I expected him to be civil and not pull anything funny. If he was angry at me about something, he should come out and tell me privately and we could work it out but he was not to sabatoge my vacation and that of everyone else. That actually worked. He was ok through the whole thing. :smthumbup: The first time this happened was about 8 months after we were married and on our first family holiday. I swore to myself that I was filing for divorce when I got home. Alas, here I am 20 years later . . .
Click to expand...


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## diwali123

He sounds like my ex husband so much. Yes he sounds PA, abusive, miserable and unloving. 
I got to the point where I saw through his facade 100% and wouldn't tolerate it. He couldn't handle that his Jedi mind tricks no longer worked on me. And yes he had a list of grudges, he was abused as a child, he decided whether we were going to enjoy something or not. If it served him we would. If not he did everything he could to make me miserable by starting fights, giving me the silent treatment, huffing, eye rolling. 
He hated visiting my family do he would stay up until 3 the night before and then go sleep in a bedroom half the time we were there. 
He didn't do anything for my first mother's day then told everyone that it was because we had agreed to wait a week because my mom was there that morning. When we had our first night out after our baby was born he ignored me, wouldn't talk, then started a fight so we didn't have sex. 
Prior to the baby being born he was able to manage his behavior when he wanted something from me, for days or years at a time. But the lady thing he wanted from me was a child and when he got that there was no reason to fake it anymore. 
I don't know what to tell you but people like this rarely change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## abandonedcompletely

Katiebird,

Your husband sounds like my STBXH. He's passive aggressive, and like the others have said, they rarely change. 

I've dealt with it for 20 years and it's been horrible, lonely, and if you let it, the PA behavior can leave you feeling worthless.


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## Chelle D

I don't know... I guess I've never really had to deal with someone like that.. (other than a few in workplace.. .I just ignore them.)

He just really sounds like an a$$ to me.


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## Katiebird

Funny how many of us have stuck with this behavior for so long! Is it that the good times are pretty good or are we as stuck in our patterns as they are?? Sadly, when we were on vacation one time I was feeling particularly loving and talked to him about being my soul-mate. He simply stared at me and said he had no idea what a soul-mate was. I picked up my pride (and my heart) off the floor and went on to try to enjoy the rest of the trip. Is it that they simply have no idea of what a relationship is?? As I mentioned before, this is a second marriage for both and his ex has been labeled psycho. But I think I would like to have a frank conversation with her. Apparently she had an affair (or affairs) but I am wondering . . . I have no desire for an affair. I would only like to have a great relationship with my husband for the rest of my life. Not looking so good right now.


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## AFEH

Katiebird, my good times with my wife were many and fabulous. You don’t stay with a woman for over 40 years unless she has an abundance of seriously good qualities and you’re deeply in love with her. I’ve literally thousands of magical memories that go way back to the late 60s.

But there are two sides to every coin. As people we have our good side and our bad side. Carl Jung refers to the latter as our shadow. Others can see, hear and feel our shadow while we can go through life somewhat oblivious to it. Or at least oblivious to the affect of our shadow on those around us.


My wife was totally non confrontational which meant our home was for 95% of the time a very peaceful and pleasant place to be. But the other side of that aspect to her character, her shadow, was that instead of confronting she shoved things under the carpet and let them build up into very long term and deep resentment. She never ever forgives and she rarely accepts any form of apology. At the end of the day I recognised I was in a no win situation.


These things are very deep and her expression of her resentment was her passive aggression. It slowly but surely led to her withdrawing her love which began as conscious behaviour but later became an unconscious habit. And her habit became her way of life and so love slowly but surely left our marriage even though we loved one another.


I got to the point where I literally could not take even the risk of one more passive aggressive act from her because the last one was so very painful and I was in fear of her. So in essence I ended my marriage and never got it going again out of fear of the pain caused me by my wife’s acts of passive aggression.


You’re still with your H. Reflecting that back to my situation that will be because you still love him and the pleasure you get from him is greater than the pain. He just hasn’t hurt you enough for you to eject him from your life, for you to pull your hand out of the fire such that you never ever put it back in.

I’ve never regretted splitting up with my wife, not one time in over two years. And although at times I miss her terribly after the first 12 months I settled in to a very nice way of life. I would never take her back unless she woke up to and worked on her shadow (her passive aggressive ways) such that it’s no longer capable of hurting me. But in the decades we were together she refused to do that and I can’t see it happening now.


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## AFEH

Katiebird said:


> Funny how many of us have stuck with this behavior for so long! Is it that the good times are pretty good or are we as stuck in our patterns as they are??


Interdependency is the thing to have in marriage. Two independent people somewhat reliant on one another to function as a couple within a family. This is most needed when raising children and is easy to see.

But within that interdependent relationship there may well be some codependency. For example the wife who needs her husband’s pay check yet he’s a drunk. She tries to get him off the drink and in walks codependency trying to change someone else.

The term codependent came as a way to described the partner of an alcoholic. But the term is used for the partners of people with personality disorders. Passive aggression when seriously bad (we all have some pa) is being considered as a personality disorder by way of embitterment.

So research the term codependent and read some books about it. Codependents typically have poor boundaries and put up with forms of abuse that others wouldn’t tolerate for just one second.

In my mind PA’s are basically cowards, bullies even. The only reason they can hurt us so very much is because we love them deeply and let them right inside of us. They can hurt us because we are vulnerable and because we have let them into our lives.


If that is true in your case and if you ever acknowledge and accept that your H when he hurts you it is at times very deliberate and premeditated and planned (In the way you’d plan and prepare a meal) then like me with my wife you may well eject him from your life.


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## diwali123

In my case there were good times on his terms. He would get into really goofy silly moods and I used to think it was funny. After years of his abuse I got sick of the roller coaster and refused to let his moods dictate mine. He would say in a boyish voice on a Friday "let's just have a good weekend this weekend". Which meant he has decided not to be an ass for three days and I'm supposed to be grateful for that. 
I just got sick of him needing me to reflect his emotions. If he was mad he had to make me mad. If he was happy I had to be happy too or he would get upset.
It took years for me to see the patterns, to see the cycles, to see how abusive he was. I grew up with an abusive father so I wasn't familiar with covert rage and I didn't get how manipulation was abusive. 
The worst thing was how hard he tried to keep me from being successful or feeling good about myself in every aspect of my life. If there was something just for me that would cost him time, money, energy or make him feel like I was better than him
he would put up obstacles to it and come with "rational" reasons for why I couldn't do/have whatever it was. 
If I somehow got it past him then when it was happening or after it was happening he would start in with his tantrums and moods and try to bring me down. 
Sound familiar?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nomoretogive

AFEH said:


> PA is very deeply rooted behaviour. It’s right down there in the foundations and cornerstones of the PA’s psyche, their mind, consciousness and it’s right up there in their highest levels of awareness and behaviour.
> 
> PA’s know what they do, they know why they do what they do and they know what the consequential affects of their behaviour on their “target” will be. A lot of that consequential behaviour is that their target feels like they’re going crazy.
> 
> 
> PA’s want to hurt and cause pain and they’re exceptionally good at doing it while at the same time covering up their tracks with deceits, lies, blame shifting and denials such that they’re never “caught”. PA’s are absolute experts at what they do because they started out at a very young age and with experience honed their skills.
> 
> Will he change? NO. At least he wont change while he’s with you because he’s marked your card many times over the years you’ve been together and has all his grudges stacked up and ready to be used against you. It’s doubtful but possible he’ll change if you leave him and he goes with someone new. But that will only be in the honeymoon phase, if she upsets him at all his PA behaviour will raise it’s ugly head again. Although there are exceptions with those who finally “see the light” and work on changing themselves.
> 
> You know what the future holds for you if you stay with him. That particular future is guaranteed. Just depends how much self-esteem, self-respect and of how much of a risk taker you are to start off out by yourself. One things for sure that you cannot guarantee and that’s that you’ll get a second chance at “life”.


As someone who also has a PA spouse -- and thought I had a good handle on understanding it -- I can't thank you enough for writing this. I have read it probably 20 times since you originally posted it, letting the message that "he won't change" sink in. I think that's one of the reasons I've held on longer than anybody else would have -- thinking that there's no way he *knows* what he's doing. To read here and other places that he does in fact know, and does it purposely, makes my stomach turn...and quite frankly, that's what I need to get to the point of letting go. 

Living with these people is nothing short of maddening, and like the OP, sometimes I wonder why I've stayed so long. Admittedly, for a lot of years, I didn't recognize it; only knew that something was off, wrong, and honestly thought it must be me. For the last year and a half, though, after my therapist pointed out that the problem is his PA, I started reading about it, and watching it happen before my eyes, I've tried everything to "beat" him at his game. I've tried calling him out, I've tried leaving him behind on family gatherings because that is when he would always pull something, I've tried the 180 -- which doesn't work on these people; they are that good that they adjust quickly and go right back to their games. 

It's like this post says, they won't change with US because the dynamic has been set; and as my therapist says, you can stay around and try to win every battle, but his skills are so honed that he WILL win the war. 

I just can't imagine what it must be like to be so effing miserable and so willing to repeatedly hurt someone who loves you. My "normal" mind can't make sense of it.


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## diwali123

Yes they know. They just assume everyone else is like them do that makes it ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## abandonedcompletely

I was like you Nomoretogive,

I didn't recognize what was going on, though I knew something was off. I also grew up in an abusive home. I recognized that kind of outward, full of rage abuse and stayed clear from anything resembling it. I was not prepared for dealing with hidden rage. I had no idea such a thing existed!

But with my spouse, it was so well hidden!!! Even when I left for 2 years, I thought I knew it, but I didn't. 

I had to return due to finances and it was then that it became super clear what he has been doing!! I feel like such a fool!!

Nothing is ever their fault! And in order for them to feel good about themselves is usually at the expense of their partner. From what I've seen in my own marriage, what I have come to see, is that in order for my husband to feel good about himself, he must be in a "higher up" position than myself. He made it seem like he didn't want me to work outside the home, when my kids were older, because it would be difficult for me (I have MS), but in reality, It was because he wants me dependent on him. (This just came out recently.) Everything is about his ego and nothing is really about me, my dreams, hopes, or feelings in any way whatsoever. I will not, anymore, sacrifice my life for someone who cares so little about me. There has to be more to life than this.


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## abandonedcompletely

diwali123 said:


> Yes they know. They just assume everyone else is like them do that makes it ok.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh my goodness yes!!! They have one perspective and one perspective only and it's their own perspective!

They can't imagine that others might see things differently!


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## vi_bride04

Passive agressiveness is the worse. My husband has always been this way and I knew from the begining. I thought PA was more of a behind the scenes type thing...where they didn't realize they were doing it until they were called out on it.

I was so wrong. His passive ways have led to so may actions of purposeful hurt towards me I am done. And it does come out in all of his ways of living. I also thought just informing him of his pa would snap him out of it. Nope.

I am filing for divorce. After him cheating on me 5 years ago ON PURPOSE TO HURT ME and now discovering he is going to lunch with a female co-worker ON PURPOSE TO HURT ME I decided I'm not going to live with this passive agressive b.s. anymore. I told him thats why we are divorcing but he still wants to say it's b/c we can't work through our communication issues...I guess thats a good way to spin it so he still looks good to other people.


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## AFEH

nomoretogive said:


> As someone who also has a PA spouse -- and thought I had a good handle on understanding it -- I can't thank you enough for writing this. I have read it probably 20 times since you originally posted it, letting the message that "he won't change" sink in. I think that's one of the reasons I've held on longer than anybody else would have -- thinking that there's no way he *knows* what he's doing. To read here and other places that he does in fact know, and does it purposely, makes my stomach turn...and quite frankly, that's what I need to get to the point of letting go.
> 
> Living with these people is nothing short of maddening, and like the OP, sometimes I wonder why I've stayed so long. Admittedly, for a lot of years, I didn't recognize it; only knew that something was off, wrong, and honestly thought it must be me. For the last year and a half, though, after my therapist pointed out that the problem is his PA, I started reading about it, and watching it happen before my eyes, I've tried everything to "beat" him at his game. I've tried calling him out, I've tried leaving him behind on family gatherings because that is when he would always pull something, I've tried the 180 -- which doesn't work on these people; they are that good that they adjust quickly and go right back to their games.
> 
> It's like this post says, they won't change with US because the dynamic has been set; and as my therapist says, you can stay around and try to win every battle, but his skills are so honed that he WILL win the war.
> 
> I just can't imagine what it must be like to be so effing miserable and so willing to repeatedly hurt someone who loves you. My "normal" mind can't make sense of it.


Unfortunately it goes further and deeper.

Because they hurt you in deliberate and premeditated ways, they believe that when you hurt them it is in turn deliberate and premeditated. It took me a while to get that.

And so they become paranoid. And because they’re paranoid, they become deluded.

And because of their paranoid delusions they accuse you of all sorts of things you didn’t do. Which is to say the least exceedingly hurtful, very confusing and somewhat mind f-ing. It’s also exceedingly confusing when they tell you they love and share your bed.


They never own up to it because what they do is exceedingly deliberate. To own up to it would show beyond any misunderstanding what it is that lurks within them. They know their insides very well.


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## turnera

Katiebird said:


> In all honesty, I have tried just about everything, bringing things to his attention as they happen, ignoring things entirely, writing him love letters, writing him angry letters, using "I" phrases rather than "you" , trying to simply sit down & talk w/him when I am not angry/frustrated and the results are the same. He sits and says nothing. No reaction, comment, etc. or says that I am treating him like a child and then walks away. I have bought several books and did do some counseling. He will not go to counseling. Perhaps I need to just laugh it off and forget about it. BTW, he no longer sleeps w/me - says the cat bothers him - this after 10 years of not mentioning it. Instead he is sleeping on a bed he had when he was married the first time and refuses to get rid of.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Everything you mention is you trying to make him change. Why should he? Instead, start changing what YOU do. Read Boundaries in Marriage and learn how to protect yourself from his crap.


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## Katiebird

Wow!! Thanks to everyone who has posted!! This is something I have not been able to talk to ANYONE about for a few reasons . . . one is that if you didn't live with him you would never believe it . . . he is always so nice to _most _everyone else. The second I guess is pride. This is a second marriage and I *really *want it to work . . . As AFEH has said, the good times are really good . . . but it seems the weirdness is becoming more frequent and a little more blatent. And three - I don't tend to want to burden family or friends with this bs. I made my bed . . . so to speak. 

Over the last three years I have decided to do some things that I have wanted to do and branched out a bit into a few realms where he is not at all - taking classes, doing some civic related stuff. I never hear anything positive about these things - no surprises. I have also gone to see my family elsewhere on my own, which frankly is more relaxing since I am not walking on eggshells. Much of the time I simply choose to ignore the little stuff - the jabs at my cooking, the doing exactly what he wants no matter what "our" plans may have been, telling me he is going to do some project and never "finding time", etc. - yet napping for hours. But I guess I am really not "ignoring" it, just not reacting yet I must still be feeling resentment because when he does something P/A when I really *need* him to help I do react. Yet if I talk to him about it - alone - he will say something like, "Yup, I am _always _(said sarcastically) to blame for everything." or "I just never do any thing right." 

@turnera - yes, boundaries are a good idea and I need to define them and stick with them.

@nomoretogive & AFEH - I am also sick with the thought that he may actually know/realize what he is doing and still do it!! I guess I was always willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he just doesn't realize how much what he does hurts! It is like he picks the times I could be most vulnerable and then - wham - out of the blue does something - and it is so subtle that I am left with my mouth open thinking . . . did that just happen?? 

So AFEH - was it one thing that tipped the scales after 40 years or was it just the cumulative realization that this is all there is?


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## diwali123

Yes when they get backed into the corner they revert to the sarcastic "I do this because I'm not a good person." line. Or "everything us always my fault." if my ex got upset about something any normal person would see as being absolutely ridiculous and I called him on it he would accuse me of not accepting his feelings. "you want me to communicate but them I get mad about something you don't see as important and I'm wrong."
They really see themselves as victims.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nomoretogive

Katiebird said:


> Wow!! Thanks to everyone who has posted!! This is something I have not been able to talk to ANYONE about for a few reasons . . . *one is that if you didn't live with him you would never believe it *. . . he is always so nice to _most _everyone else. The second I guess is *pride*. This is a second marriage and I *really *want it to work . . . As AFEH has said, the good times are really good . . . but it seems the weirdness is becoming more frequent and a little more blatent. And three - I don't tend to want to burden family or friends with this bs. *I made my bed* . . . so to speak.
> 
> Over the last three years I have decided to do some things that I have wanted to do and branched out a bit into a few realms where he is not at all - taking classes, doing some civic related stuff. I never hear anything positive about these things - no surprises. I have also gone to see my family elsewhere on my own, which frankly is more relaxing since I am not walking on eggshells. Much of the time I simply choose to ignore the little stuff - the jabs at my cooking, the doing exactly what he wants no matter what "our" plans may have been, telling me he is going to do some project and never "finding time", etc. - yet napping for hours. But I guess I am really not "ignoring" it, just not reacting yet I must still be feeling resentment because when he does something P/A when I really *need* him to help I do react. Yet if I talk to him about it - alone - he will say something like, "*Yup, I am always (said sarcastically) to blame for everything." or "I just never do any thing right." *


I've highlighted a couple of things that stick out to me. YES, YES, YES, it is so flipping hard to explain to other people what is going on, and have them believe me, because like yours, mine is a freaking angel around everyone else. He has them snowed, like he is some kind of catch that I am crazy to complain about. NOBODY understands what I go through on a daily basis. It sounds so stupid when you're trying to explain to somebody:

I couldn't find my keys (and he "found" them behind the bed eventually, underneath a piece of leftover carpet, where I never, ever, ever take my purse or my keys or would ever put anything)

My car door was left open (even though I had never gone to the garage or left that night but knew I had an early morning appointment) and my battery was dead so I couldn't leave and missed my appointment.

I will set both alarm clocks (not a morning person) and the alarm on my phone, but oversleep because the alarms had been unplugged and my phone turned off (which I NEVER EVER do). 

It all sounds so petty when you're trying to explain how you're going crazy over these little things. Everyone acts like you're making a big deal out of nothing and you come off as the crazy one. I have felt so lonely, so crazy, and so....flawed, something, as I navigate every day, never knowing what is coming next. I feel like my life is a minefield, and I never know when I'm going to step on one and how serious the damage is going to be. 

But I keep going because my pride won't let me admit what my head and heart already know...that I made a huge mistake marrying him and staying and I would be the only person in my family to ever divorce (we're Catholic). For some reason, that alone keeps me chained to this relationship. It's like *I* would be the failure when I didn't do anything wrong. My family was/is very abusive, and I've always been the scapegoat, and I don't want to provide any more fodder for the dinner table, I guess. Like you, I can recognize overt abuse 50 miles away because I grew up getting beat pretty severely; I had no clue this sort of crazy-ass thinking existed, and it's the mind-fvcking that I can't wrap my mind around. I keep trying to make sense of something that makes no sense. 

Like yours, mine refuses to accept blame, and every time I try to talk to him about anything, he immediately interrupts me, gets this sh!tty tone of voice and says, "I know, NMTG, I'm a worthless effing bas**rd." Doesn't matter what it is, that's his go-to line and we can't ever get anywhere from there. 

When I started on this journey of self-discovery, I thought I had married someone like my father -- who was always emotionally unavailable and elusive. I just recently came to the conclusion though that I'm fighting the same childhood battle of trying to get attention and "fix" my narcissistic, passive-aggressive mother. Once I made the connection in my mind, I can see it happening and playing out. In fact, I didn't realize how passive-aggressive my mom was until the last few months. No wonder I feel like I've been going crazy half my life! 

My problem is, I've read everything I can about PA behavior, especially these threads here that have resonated with me, and I think I get it. These folks cannot be fixed. For some reason, I keep thinking I'm the exception to the rule, as though I can fix it if I just keep trying harder. I also understand codependency and how I'm a poster child, and I'm getting better....

I know what I have to do. Why is it doing it so frigging hard?


----------



## AFEH

Katiebird said:


> So AFEH - was it one thing that tipped the scales after 40 years or was it just the cumulative realization that this is all there is?


Pain so strong and deep the last time round that I literally lived in fear of her and I’m by no means a small man. I’ve now got boundaries the equivalent of a nuclear bunker around me. It’s the only thing that works. She still has the capability of hurting me because of the deep love I have for her plus so many wonderful memories. Because of that I can’t see that I’ll ever see or even speak to her again as long as I live. One things for sure and that’s that she’d never tell me her truth, she’s deceived so long and told so many lies she couldn’t find her truth even if she wanted to.


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## AFEH

nomoretogive said:


> As someone who also has a PA spouse -- and thought I had a good handle on understanding it -- I can't thank you enough for writing this. I have read it probably 20 times since you originally posted it, letting the message that "he won't change" sink in. I think that's one of the reasons I've held on longer than anybody else would have -- thinking that there's no way he *knows* what he's doing. To read here and other places that he does in fact know, and does it purposely, makes my stomach turn...and quite frankly, that's what I need to get to the point of letting go.
> 
> Living with these people is nothing short of maddening, and like the OP, sometimes I wonder why I've stayed so long. Admittedly, for a lot of years, I didn't recognize it; only knew that something was off, wrong, and honestly thought it must be me. For the last year and a half, though, after my therapist pointed out that the problem is his PA, I started reading about it, and watching it happen before my eyes, I've tried everything to "beat" him at his game. I've tried calling him out, I've tried leaving him behind on family gatherings because that is when he would always pull something, I've tried the 180 -- which doesn't work on these people; they are that good that they adjust quickly and go right back to their games.
> 
> It's like this post says, they won't change with US because the dynamic has been set; and as my therapist says, you can stay around and try to win every battle, but his skills are so honed that he WILL win the war.
> 
> I just can't imagine what it must be like to be so effing miserable and so willing to repeatedly hurt someone who loves you. My "normal" mind can't make sense of it.


You have a very good therapist!

I never saw my wife as an unhappy or miserable person, in fact quite the opposite. But she did have a malevolent, vicious, nasty and wicked streak inside of her. The brighter the star the darker the shadow!


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## AFEH

You may like to read http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/14963-boundaries-men.html.

Alphaomega helped me out greatly with understanding these things.


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## turnera

nomoretogive, you may be Catholic and not able to divorce/remarry, but consider this: Would you rather remain married in a house with a man who is slowly driving you crazy and you are miserable? Or would you rather remain married but live alone and be free to live your life without drama and be able to find happiness in other things?

It sounds like what you're saying is that it's more important to have a man in your home than to be happy.

My dad cheated and left my mom, found out the grass wasn't greener, and asked to come home. My mom refused; he hadn't been that great of a husband to begin with. She lived another 40 years, single and loving it. She told me before she died she was SO grateful she never took him back because she got to live the life SHE wanted, do whatever she wanted, go whereever she wanted, and no longer have to spend all her time worrying about keeping him happy.


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## diwali123

I thought you could get a divorce or get annulment in the C church due to cruelty, abuse, mental illness?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ten_year_hubby

AFEH said:


> You may like to read http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/14963-boundaries-men.html.
> 
> Alphaomega helped me out greatly with understanding these things.


In case there is anyone left here who hasn't already judged their mate to be "unfixable", passive aggressive behavior is a dysfunctional expression of anger. A motivated spouse can certainly find their way to begin to understand the origin of the anger their partner is displacing. Just being able to talk about it with a caring partner can be a big help for the sufferer


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## thunderstruck

(puts on a helmet and flak vest) 

I disagree about not being able to fix this. I say that b/c I lived most of my life doing PA garbage. I guess it was how I learned to deal with my shytty childhood. That's not an excuse, it's the possible reason. My wife told me for years that I did PA stuff, and I always thought, "Who me?"

I had a bit of a wake-up call in my marriage several years ago. I started reading marriage/relationship books, and then stumbled on the Nice Guy book. Read it with my jaw on the ground, and accepted that I had issues...including PA behavior. I read more on it, read some more, got thoroughly disgusted with myself, apologized to my wife for my PA past, and kept working on me. I think I've mostly beat it. Sometimes I slip, but now I catch myself quickly. So, yes, I believe that if someone accepts it (the hard part), and does the work, they can change.


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## AFEH

Ten_year_hubby said:


> In case there is anyone left here who hasn't already judged their mate to be "unfixable", passive aggressive behavior is a dysfunctional expression of anger. A motivated spouse can certainly find their way to begin to understand the origin of the anger their partner is displacing. Just being able to talk about it with a caring partner can be a big help for the sufferer


You know not what you talk of. Your position is one of massive naivety. Believe me your naivety and ignorance in these matters is a blessing.


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## AFEH

thunderstruck said:


> (puts on a helmet and flak vest)
> 
> I disagree about not being able to fix this. I say that b/c I lived most of my life doing PA garbage. I guess it was how I learned to deal with my shytty childhood. That's not an excuse, it's the possible reason. My wife told me for years that I did PA stuff, and I always thought, "Who me?"
> 
> I had a bit of a wake-up call in my marriage several years ago. I started reading marriage/relationship books, and then stumbled on the Nice Guy book. Read it with my jaw on the ground, and accepted that I had issues...including PA behavior. I read more on it, read some more, got thoroughly disgusted with myself, apologized to my wife for my PA past, and kept working on me. I think I've mostly beat it. Sometimes I slip, but now I catch myself quickly. So, yes, I believe that if someone accepts it (the hard part), and does the work, they can change.


As far as I’m concerned you’ve no reason to duck. Your experience sounds similar to Alphaomega. He also recognised his own PA and how he’d hurt his wife and turned himself around. Not only that he also stepped up to the line to be open and honest about it to help others out.

I think like most things PA is on a spectrum. There’s the mild PA that we all perform at some time or another right up to the massive PA acts of mass murder by truly embittered people. My wife’s brother was one of the latter. These things run in families. My wife and her brothers had an excellent teacher in their mother and father.

These things run very deep. Some PA’s are so focused on their hatred and anger that they simply cannot be introspective and at least look into their own behaviour let alone do something about it.


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## thunderstruck

AFEH said:


> Some PA’s are so focused on their hatred and anger that they simply cannot be introspective and at least look into their own behaviour let alone do something about it.


Yes, true, and maybe they need a serious shock to the system in order to take a good look at themselves. My wife could have told me a million times, and it would not have even come close to penetrating my thick skull.


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## Jellybeans

Katiebird said:


> Sadly, when we were on vacation one time I was feeling particularly loving and talked to him about being my soul-mate. He simply stared at me and said he had no idea what a soul-mate was.
> 
> As I mentioned before, this is a second marriage for both and his ex has been labeled psycho. But I think I would like to have a frank conversation with her.


Wow, to the first part (the soulmate thing). That must have urt.

Secondly, I am not surprised someone like your husband labeled his ex a psycho. It goes right in line with his personality/character.

Sadly, he probably will never change.

Sounds just like my exH. The behavior only got worse over time. And yep--all of his exes were "psycho"s too, according to him. 

BaSically the bottom line is tat you are unhappy in your marriage and w/ the way he treats you. Tell him. Either he will work together with you or he won't. If he won't, then you must decide whether you are willing to stay in a marriage where you feel unhappy and like he doesn't care about you.


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## AFEH

It’s a boundary thing with these people. You have to protect yourself from their aggression with boundaries. If they abuse your boundaries then you only have yourself to blame if you stay with them.

If they do respect your boundaries that means they are changed and changing. If they don’t it means they will never change for you. So you will get what you always got if you stay with them.


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## AFEH

thunderstruck said:


> Yes, true, and maybe they need a serious shock to the system in order to take a good look at themselves. My wife could have told me a million times, and it would not have even come close to penetrating my thick skull.


You may have been in denial. It must be very difficult to acknowledge and accept the deliberate, premeditated planning to hurt the person who loves you and the one your are supposed to take care of and look after.

Well done with changing yourself. I truly wish my wife would have at least shown a small sign of change, something to work with and encourage.


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## Katiebird

AFEH said:


> It’s a boundary thing with these people. You have to protect yourself from their aggression with boundaries. If they abuse your boundaries then you only have yourself to blame if you stay with them.
> 
> If they do respect your boundaries that means they are changed and changing. If they don’t it means they will never change for you. So you will get what you always got if you stay with them.


Ok, I understand boundaries. Lord knows I set enough of them with my kids! But what kind of boundaries CAN you set with a PA spouse? For example - and sadly I bring this up *EVERY *time we (I) argue - we have a remodel project for which the demolition was done 10+ years ago and there it sits - currently being used as a storeroom for all his [email protected] I have told him before that if it was not completed w/i a year I was going to hire someone to finish it. He said that was a threat and an ultimatum and I had no right to give him deadlines and I was treating him like a child. Are those the kinds of things I need to follow through on? Should I have asked him to sign something? 

How about the little things? The suddenly quit talking and I can't figure out what I have done? Or the quick verbal jabs. or the kazillion other things that I tend to shrug my shoulders and pass on. Can you be more specific? And thanks!


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## Katiebird

nomoretogive said:


> I've highlighted a couple of things that stick out to me. YES, YES, YES, it is so flipping hard to explain to other people what is going on, and have them believe me, because like yours, mine is a freaking angel around everyone else. He has them snowed, like he is some kind of catch that I am crazy to complain about. NOBODY understands what I go through on a daily basis. It sounds so stupid when you're trying to explain to somebody:
> 
> It all sounds so petty when you're trying to explain how you're going crazy over these little things. Everyone acts like you're making a big deal out of nothing and you come off as the crazy one. I have felt so lonely, so crazy, and so....flawed, something, as I navigate every day, never knowing what is coming next. I feel like my life is a minefield, and I never know when I'm going to step on one and how serious the damage is going to be.


Boy I hear you. Even sometimes when I am thinking about all the stupid little things - like now - I think to myself "You sound crazy! This is all little stuff . . ." But it accumulates and accumulates. When we have our "talks" nothing ever gets resolved. Either he sits there and says "what do you want me to say" or he leaves or stares at the tv. Sometimes he will say "does this make you feel better?" And I have to say NO! Its just the same ol' same ol'!


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## Katiebird

AFEH said:


> I think like most things PA is on a spectrum. There’s the mild PA that we all perform at some time or another right up to the massive PA acts of mass murder by truly embittered people.


Interesting the spectrum thing. Yes, we have all done PA things at one time or another. My concern is that after being surrounded by this for so long, am I going to start exhibiting more PA tendencies rather than him doing them less???


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## AFEH

Katiebird said:


> Ok, I understand boundaries. Lord knows I set enough of them with my kids! But what kind of boundaries CAN you set with a PA spouse? For example - and sadly I bring this up *EVERY *time we (I) argue - we have a remodel project for which the demolition was done 10+ years ago and there it sits - currently being used as a storeroom for all his [email protected] I have told him before that if it was not completed w/i a year I was going to hire someone to finish it. He said that was a threat and an ultimatum and I had no right to give him deadlines and I was treating him like a child. Are those the kinds of things I need to follow through on? Should I have asked him to sign something?
> 
> How about the little things? The suddenly quit talking and I can't figure out what I have done? Or the quick verbal jabs. or the kazillion other things that I tend to shrug my shoulders and pass on. Can you be more specific? And thanks!


I don’t think you’re at the point where “It’s my way or the highway”. I got to that point because I couldn’t take any more of her aggression. It just hurt too much. Unless you are at that point, boundaries will not do you any good because he wont respond to them and when that happens you wont enforce them.

Before you set and declare your boundaries you HAVE to be prepared to walk and if he doesn’t respect whatever boundaries you set then actually do the walking.

Even when you walk he may still not see the light and change. He may even not try and get you back. But at the very least then you will know that he doesn’t actually love you like a husband should and he’s not at all bothered about keeping you because he just doesn’t value you. That he’s been deeply two faced with you and using and abusing you.

These things can be very hard to accept. But as I say I’ve not once regretted it.


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## AFEH

Katiebird said:


> Interesting the spectrum thing. Yes, we have all done PA things at one time or another. My concern is that after being surrounded by this for so long, am I going to start exhibiting more PA tendencies rather than him doing them less???


Wow. You are one very self-aware lady. There is a great danger you could become a PA. The possibility is within all of us. The antidote is forgiveness. It really is that simple.

But forgiveness without boundaries is very wrong and damaging. And forgiving and forgetting is wrong as well. Forgive but never forget.

Take a look at The Five Levels of Passive Aggressive Behavior | Psychology Today for a spectrum. My wife’s family were PAs. Her brother at Level 5, he killed himself and others to get his revenge. My wife was at Level 4.

When I really understood what my wife was doing to me I came to absolutely hate and despise her. My anger could have moved mountains. I was saturated with these feelings for over six months. Initially I thought I was grieving but I came to understand they arose out of feeling massively betrayed by the woman I was in love with and the woman who told me she loved me, the woman who shared my bed and took all that I had to offer from me.

It would be so easy for me to jump to Level 4. To have used the rage I felt to get my revenge. I still could if I had a mind to and in a truly passive aggressive way she’d never know it was me.

But I’m not that sort of guy. I’m a forgiving guy. That’s me. That’s a massive part of who I am. But this time I don’t forgive without boundaries and I will never forget like I have in the past. It is those things that are keeping me safe from my wife’s aggressive acts.

So no. I for one will not become a PA. I will hold the values and principles that have served me well in the past. I still find I cannot forgive my wife for what she did. But I will never see her again or take from her like she took from me.


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## Katiebird

AFEH said:


> You may like to read http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/14963-boundaries-men.html.
> 
> Alphaomega helped me out greatly with understanding these things.


Wow. I have not read all the way through it but this is really an eye opener!! Thanks for sharing.


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## Ten_year_hubby

AFEH said:


> You know not what you talk of. Your position is one of massive naivety. Believe me your naivety and ignorance in these matters is a blessing.


Thanks AFEH. I actually felt good for a short while believing this until my wife came over and talked me out of it.


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## turnera

Katiebird said:


> we have a remodel project for which the demolition was done 10+ years ago and there it sits - currently being used as a storeroom for all his [email protected] I have told him before that if it was not completed w/i a year I was going to hire someone to finish it.


And did you? Hire someone?

Of course you didn't. Because he got in your face about it and you backed down. You tried to establish a boundary - a logical one - and he used his PA bull**** and it worked. You didn't follow through on your boundary.



> He said that was a threat and an ultimatum and I had no right to give him deadlines


Too bad so sad. See, you aren't understanding boundaries yet. YOUR boundaries have nothing to do with what he wants or likes or feels. They are YOUR legitimate beliefs and needs. YOURS. They DO NOT CARE what he feels about them. They are YOURS. Therefore, they are only what YOU will do if he does X, Y, or Z. You TOLD him what you would do if he did X (not finish it); but then you didn't do it. So you proved to him that your 'boundaries' are just threats. 

Do you see the difference?


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## Katiebird

turnera said:


> And did you? Hire someone?
> 
> Of course you didn't. Because he got in your face about it and you backed down. You tried to establish a boundary - a logical one - and he used his PA bull**** and it worked. You didn't follow through on your boundary.
> 
> Too bad so sad. See, you aren't understanding boundaries yet. YOUR boundaries have nothing to do with what he wants or likes or feels. They are YOUR legitimate beliefs and needs. YOURS. They DO NOT CARE what he feels about them. They are YOURS. Therefore, they are only what YOU will do if he does X, Y, or Z. You TOLD him what you would do if he did X (not finish it); but then you didn't do it. So you proved to him that your 'boundaries' are just threats.
> 
> Do you see the difference?


I do see the difference . . . but it is so much easier said than done.


----------



## vi_bride04

AFEH said:


> I don’t think you’re at the point where “It’s my way or the highway”. I got to that point because I couldn’t take any more of her aggression. It just hurt too much. Unless you are at that point, boundaries will not do you any good because he wont respond to them and when that happens you wont enforce them.
> 
> Before you set and declare your boundaries you HAVE to be prepared to walk and if he doesn’t respect whatever boundaries you set then actually do the walking.
> 
> Even when you walk he may still not see the light and change. He may even not try and get you back. But at the very least then you will know that he doesn’t actually love you like a husband should and he’s not at all bothered about keeping you because he just doesn’t value you. That he’s been deeply two faced with you and using and abusing you.
> 
> These things can be very hard to accept. But as I say I’ve not once regretted it.


:thumbup:

This!!!!!! I am walking. Can't take the total lack of consideration and all the disrespect anymore. Its just so blatant!!! And he doesn't see it at all...


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## Katiebird

Two questions: 
1) Does your PA try to restart conversation (after silence or sulking) with absolutely ridiculous things?? Asking me if I knew who had been released from a local baseball team . . . I don't follow baseball . . . I think he is ready to try to get "back to normal" but I am not there yet. (Yes - I will admit to a bit of PA myself - when he doesn't talk . . . neither do I - until I can get my thoughts together - then I am usually the one to re-initiate) 
2)have any of your PA spouses ever used a pet as a PA tool? We have several pets and he has always *insisted *on taking care of them - feeding, water, etc. even though I have offered to do at least part of it. I should mention that they all get more attention than I do - ) Well he has been taking care of several of the animals, but I realized today, not my special needs, beloved, old cat! WTF?? You can mess with me but not my kids or my animals! (Maybe that is boundary #1) I realized that he has not been feeding her at all! I am a little pyzzed!


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## abandonedcompletely

Katiebird said:


> Two questions:
> 1) Does your PA try to restart conversation (after silence or sulking) with absolutely ridiculous things?? Asking me if I knew who had been released from a local baseball team . . . I don't follow baseball . . . I think he is ready to try to get "back to normal" but I am not there yet. (Yes - I will admit to a bit of PA myself - when he doesn't talk . . . neither do I - until I can get my thoughts together - then I am usually the one to re-initiate)
> 2)have any of your PA spouses ever used a pet as a PA tool? We have several pets and he has always *insisted *on taking care of them - feeding, water, etc. even though I have offered to do at least part of it. I should mention that they all get more attention than I do - ) Well he has been taking care of several of the animals, but I realized today, not my special needs, beloved, old cat! WTF?? You can mess with me but not my kids or my animals! (Maybe that is boundary #1) I realized that he has not been feeding her at all! I am a little pyzzed!


To answer your first question, YES! 

I would have a very serious discussion with him. All the while he would say nothing, absolutely not one word. The whole time I was speaking, I would use "I" statements and how a behavior made me feel. I never used any naming calling or derogatory statements. 

After minutes of complete silence from him, he would finally speak and it would be about some mundane thing that had absolutely nothing to do with what I just said.

He would act as if I said not one word, never acknowledged my feelings or anything. It was as if I never spoke to him! 

How in the heck can any problem be worked on if it goes ignored by the other partner?

It's infuriating as hell and it made me feel like I didn't matter.

As for question 2, yes, my stbxh has done it with the kids. It's awful. To neglect an innocent being just to get back at someone else is inexcusable.


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## nomoretogive

turnera said:


> nomoretogive, you may be Catholic and not able to divorce/remarry, but consider this: Would you rather remain married in a house with a man who is slowly driving you crazy and you are miserable? Or would you rather remain married but live alone and be free to live your life without drama and be able to find happiness in other things?
> 
> *It sounds like what you're saying is that it's more important to have a man in your home than to be happy.*
> 
> My dad cheated and left my mom, found out the grass wasn't greener, and asked to come home. My mom refused; he hadn't been that great of a husband to begin with. She lived another 40 years, single and loving it. She told me before she died she was SO grateful she never took him back because she got to live the life SHE wanted, do whatever she wanted, go whereever she wanted, and no longer have to spend all her time worrying about keeping him happy.


You raise a good point, and one I have considered myself. But in my case, I don't think that's it. I don't think it's about having a man in my house with me or a fear of being alone; it's being worried about the backlash from my family if I do divorce. They aren't exactly the supportive, forgiving type. While I've made great strides in putting distance between myself and my family -- especially my mom -- we are still tied together in some pretty important ways -- namely, they own the house I live in, for another 24 months, until I pay the remainder of the loan. 

My mom is totally the type of person (she has very strong PA narcissistic tendencies) that if I were to "embarrass" her by getting a divorce -- since I would be the only one in the family ever to do so -- she would concoct some scenario where I would have to move before the house is paid for, and I'd lose all my mortgage payments and have to start over. Sure, it could be done, but I'd rather not. Add in all the drama it would cause between my dad and I when he would step in and try to stop her silliness, and that's worse than what I have to deal with now.

I want to know that in two years, I have no house payment and the deed is transferred, and then I won't be "stuck" any longer. My mom just does some really underhanded things sometimes -- as in one time I owned a boat, and she went so far as to get a fake ID, went to the BMV to try to transfer the title into my brother's name, only didn't realize the boat title was still in my maiden name and got called on it by the clerk; my uncle told me -- that I'm just biding my time until the house is paid for and the filing of the deed is done; then I can escape all of the craziness. 

As much as it sucks, right now it's easier to just live through it and b!tch about it when it gets too maddening...probably because I know it's time-limited. 

I love the story about your mom, and honestly hope that one day that can be my story. I'm not really worried so much about being able to remarry, because I seriously don't have any desire to do it again. I was single before and remember those days fondly. 

Even in this day and age, though, there's still such a stigma about divorce in the church, that I find myself questioning things a lot. I do have a meeting with my priest next week, so hopefully he'll be able to counsel me through that aspect of it.


----------



## nomoretogive

Katiebird said:


> Two questions:
> 1) Does your PA try to restart conversation (after silence or sulking) with absolutely ridiculous things?? Asking me if I knew who had been released from a local baseball team . . . I don't follow baseball . . . I think he is ready to try to get "back to normal" but I am not there yet. (Yes - I will admit to a bit of PA myself - when he doesn't talk . . . neither do I - until I can get my thoughts together - then I am usually the one to re-initiate)
> 2)have any of your PA spouses ever used a pet as a PA tool? We have several pets and he has always *insisted *on taking care of them - feeding, water, etc. even though I have offered to do at least part of it. I should mention that they all get more attention than I do - ) Well he has been taking care of several of the animals, but I realized today, not my special needs, beloved, old cat! WTF?? You can mess with me but not my kids or my animals! (Maybe that is boundary #1) I realized that he has not been feeding her at all! I am a little pyzzed!


KatieBird:

Yes to both of these, so maybe it's some universal PA "thing." 

Mine loves the silent treatment. God, how he loves it. He can go days, weeks even, without speaking to me. And then, eventually, he will make some asinine remark like, "Did you see the neighbor got a new roof the other day?" and think that just the fact that he decided to speak to me should mean everything is okay. If I say, "That's nice, but until you decide to speak to me maturely about whatever you are upset about, I don't want to talk to you about random things that the neighbors are doing just to have a conversation," he will either start yelling or he restarts the silent treatment....until the next time he brings up something stupid. It's ridiculous. It used to cut right through me; now, I just go about my life, remain cordial as I tell him the kids and I are off to have fun while he sulks, and let him know that when he decides to grow up and talk about things to let me know. Since I've done that, the S/T episodes have become much less frequent.

I feel terrible that you have the "pet" situation, too, but I'm so glad someone else goes through this, because it's the one thing that always made me feel so petty, whining about the dogs. But seriously the dogs get more attention than I do, too, and he's so blatant about it, like, "Look at all the attention you *could have* if only you..." And heaven forbid if the littlest one is hanging out on the couch with me, he will get up off the couch -- which is a miracle in itself -- and go get her a dog treat just to get her away from me. It's so flipping pathetic!!! 

As for him not feeding your cat, that is so freaking wrong that I want to slap him for you. I mean, it's one thing to have issues with you, but what the hell did the cat do?!! Just another example of how crazy-making these people are.


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## thunderstruck

For the ladies with a PA hubby...hand him the No More Mr. Nice Guy book and tell him to read at least the first chapter. He'll likely think it's BS, and you'll have wasted your time and $15. Or, like me, it just may resonate with him, and put him on a path of positive growth.


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## turnera

nomore, you now have a plan. 

You have 24 months to pay off your loan, save up as much in a savings account as you can, pay off all your bills, ensure that your job is secure or you work toward getting a better one and, in the last 3 of those 24 months, you start looking for your own place that takes you out from under your family and husband.

Get started!


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## nomoretogive

turnera said:


> nomore, you now have a plan.
> 
> You have 24 months to pay off your loan, save up as much in a savings account as you can, pay off all your bills, ensure that your job is secure or you work toward getting a better one and, in the last 3 of those 24 months, you start looking for your own place that takes you out from under your family and husband.
> 
> Get started!


Plan in effect, right now 

Except, once I own the house, I'm going to sell the damn thing for all the heartache it has caused, take the equity and buy a condo and I'm going on vacation  Brochures already here!!


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## nomoretogive

thunderstruck said:


> For the ladies with a PA hubby...hand him the No More Mr. Nice Guy book and tell him to read at least the first chapter. He'll likely think it's BS, and you'll have wasted your time and $15. Or, like me, it just may resonate with him, and put him on a path of positive growth.


Already tried that....and the NUTS book. All I ended up with were more problems. Now he feels entitled to do whatever he wants, using it as an excuse to walk away when he gets called out on something (Hey, I'm just doing what the book said, I'm going out with the guys.) He throws it in my face because I bought him the books, "This is what YOU wanted, remember?" even when his actions aren't in the spirit the books intended. In other words, he only uses the things laid out in the books when it benefits him in some situation, and he throws the books in my face because I bought them for him. It's like he fixated on a few key parts of the books, and uses them as a weapon. It was like handing a psychopath a book on new ways to kill people. 

I commend you for making the changes. I really do, because I know how hard it had to have been and how much better of a person you are because of it. I just think a lot of our spouses aren't like you....they don't want to change. This madness works for them.


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## turnera

It doesn't do any good to give abusive men reading material. In fact, it gives them more ways to torment you. "See? I'm meeting your Emotional Needs, now you owe it to me to give me a BJ."

Stop trying to educate an abusive man. Instead, focus on building up your own boundaries and create the life you want and need for YOU; if he grows up and comes along without hurting you, fine; if he doesn't, then you're better off without him.


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## diwali123

"I would have a very serious discussion with him. All the while he would say nothing, absolutely not one word. The whole time I was speaking, I would use "I" statements and how a behavior made me feel. I never used any naming calling or derogatory statements."
I had that experience many times. I could be crying my eyes out, pouring my heart out and get nothing. I'd ask him to say something and he would say "I don't know what you want me to say." I'd say I want him to tell me his thoughts and opinions and he would say he didn't know.

As for becoming PA, I felt like I had times when I started down that road. There's only so much you can take before you start lashing out. It's also true that partners of PAs who have never been violent will become violent. The PA can't express their anger directly so they push you until you express it for them and then they say "why are you do angry and violent? You need mental help, not me."
I threw a glass coffee pot on the floor and threw an ironing board at a window and broke it. I had never done those things before but he was driving me crazy. 

My ex insisted that he loved me deeply but wouldn't work on anything. Then two months after our separation he was in a new relationship with his roommate and they've been together for four years. Obviously he had a hard time getting over our 14 years together. It just made me realize he never loved me, he was just using me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thunderstruck

nomoretogive said:


> Already tried that....and the NUTS book. All I ended up with were more problems. Now he feels entitled to do whatever he wants, using it as an excuse to walk away when he gets called out on something (Hey, I'm just doing what the book said, I'm going out with the guys.) He throws it in my face because I bought him the books, "This is what YOU wanted, remember?" even when his actions aren't in the spirit the books intended.


Those books were a golden opportunity for him to pull his head out of his azz. What you say he took or "learned" from those books...he sounds like a hurt little boy who refuses to grow up and face his problems. I've read both of those books more than once, and I don't recall a chapter that tells you to be an a-hole to your loved ones.

You may have to decide at some point to stop doing the dance with him.


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## abandonedcompletely

diwali123 said:


> "I would have a very serious discussion with him. All the while he would say nothing, absolutely not one word. The whole time I was speaking, I would use "I" statements and how a behavior made me feel. I never used any naming calling or derogatory statements."
> *I had that experience many times. I could be crying my eyes out, pouring my heart out and get nothing. I'd ask him to say something and he would say "I don't know what you want me to say." I'd say I want him to tell me his thoughts and opinions and he would say he didn't know.*
> 
> As for becoming PA, I felt like I had times when I started down that road. There's only so much you can take before you start lashing out. It's also true that partners of PAs who have never been violent will become violent. The PA can't express their anger directly so they push you until you express it for them and then they say "why are you do angry and violent? You need mental help, not me."
> I threw a glass coffee pot on the floor and threw an ironing board at a window and broke it. I had never done those things before but he was driving me crazy.
> 
> My ex insisted that he loved me deeply but wouldn't work on anything. Then two months after our separation he was in a new relationship with his roommate and they've been together for four years. Obviously he had a hard time getting over our 14 years together. It just made me realize he never loved me, he was just using me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My husband would do the same thing! I would be crying, pouring my heart out to him at times..and he would sit there with a cold stare, not saying one word. 

I use to feel humiliated, but not anymore. His issues are his own and I'm not making them mine anymore. All I'm focusing on now is getting out. 

All the talking in the world doesn't do a bit of good. Boundaries, heck they don't matter. They just keep behaving the same way. Nothing, absolutely nothing touches them!

I've never gotten violent myself or acted in a PA manner, but I can understand why you did. It's maddening. You want to do almost anything to get some kind of reaction, emotion out of them. I once told my husband that I'd be happy if he at least yelled, at least it would be something, some kind of emotion! Ugh.. it's awful.


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## abandonedcompletely

nomoretogive said:


> Already tried that....and the NUTS book. All I ended up with were more problems. Now he feels entitled to do whatever he wants, using it as an excuse to walk away when he gets called out on something (Hey, I'm just doing what the book said, I'm going out with the guys.) He throws it in my face because I bought him the books, "This is what YOU wanted, remember?" even when his actions aren't in the spirit the books intended. In other words, he only uses the things laid out in the books when it benefits him in some situation, and he throws the books in my face because I bought them for him. It's like he fixated on a few key parts of the books, and uses them as a weapon. It was like handing a psychopath a book on new ways to kill people.
> 
> I commend you for making the changes. I really do, because I know how hard it had to have been and how much better of a person you are because of it. I just think a lot of our spouses aren't like you....they don't want to change. This madness works for them.


You're right...some will use it as an excuse to keep up their behavior.

My husband is great at trying to say he can't help it. I replied, "I don't want to hear that. You have control over what you say and do. No one else does. You are completely accountable for your own actions. I'm not dealing with it anymore".


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## abandonedcompletely

thunderstruck said:


> Those books were a golden opportunity for him to pull his head out of his azz. What you say he took or "learned" from those books...he sounds like a hurt little boy who refuses to grow up and face his problems. *I've read both of those books more than once, and I don't recall a chapter that tells you to be an a-hole to your loved ones.*
> 
> You may have to decide at some point to stop doing the dance with him.


You're right...If you love someone, you don't treat them like crap. Sadly, many who are like this rarely change.

I commend you for the work you put in changing yourself. It takes a lot of courage to face yourself and your problems. Most aren't willing to put in the hard work...and they really don't want to face what they are doing, or the painful emotions behind it.

Many like to keep their head in the sand.


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## Katiebird

Just a brief update. Ended up "talking" a few days ago - it was amazing after talking with folks here that I was able to recognize patterns that I had not seen before. He tried to turn things around, "you make me do this" - I told him that he was in control of his reactions and responses and I was not responsible. He said he "tried to apologize" - i told him i did not ever hear the word "sorry" for over a week. He said I need to just forgive and forget - let it go. We didn't continue the conversation long - it ended pretty much how conversations normally do - no where. We are at least talking a bit now. BTW - he is somewhat of a hoarder - so i decided to go thru some stuff this weekend. I was a bit surprised to find some "soft porn" stuff among things. It looks like stuff that had been around for awhile. This kind of took me by surprise - as he has always claimed to be religious. I know that this may be somewhat normal for guys - but it still hurts a bit since most of the girls look nothing like me (different haircolor, eye color etc.) - even when I was young - which I am not any more. So - I find myself waking up at night wondering. We have not had sex for over six months & he is still sleeping in the other room. Tonight he commented on the fact that a lady at work was so much fun to be around - always joking and stuff. Just another little jab. I still wonder if I am the one that is crazy - and this is just little stuff that should just overlook. So I am still confused . . .


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## turnera

Him telling you about the lady was a threat - either stop this BS and become the meek doormat you were, or I'll cheat on you. The next time he tries to do that, just do what I do: Laugh at him and say "Go ahead and try, honey. If she'll take you, you two deserve each other." I do that, and my husband just laughs; his trick didn't work and I taught him to respect me.

You are NOT CRAZY. You are a victim of manipulation. Ever heard of the Stockholm Syndrome? Look it up. And go get this book TODAY - it just may save your life: Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men, by Bancroft. You can get it at most libraries.


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## diwali123

You are not crazy, he is trying to make you think you are. Mine always insisted that everything was my fault or we both were wrong. I agree with the suggestion to just tell him to go for it and call
his bluff when he talks about other women. 
I will always remember at the height of his PA craziness before he started taking meds, we went on a trip to go to his grandmas funeral. He was getting huffy about the AC controls, the radio, whose turn it was to drive. 
I was driving and trying to ignore him but I could see the escalation happening. 
I didn't know what exit to get off on and he started full blown scowling, eye rolling, evil stare like he hated me.
I got off the highway and went to McDonald's, got out of the car and he took off. 
He was gone for 20 minutes. You don't know how much I wanted to drive home. 
To most people that would seem like a small thing but when
you live with someone punishing you with their moods and stonewalling every day you can't take it anymore. 
He came back and we talked and he said out of the blue incredulously "do you really think our problems are because of me???"
I said "yes!"
I think for a while he was on board and he took antidepressants, realized he wanted a baby and was on his best behavior until she was born. Then he turned into Satan. 
It's not you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## abandonedcompletely

I agree with the others...call his bluff!

I did with my husband and he backed down real quick.


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## CallaLily

Bottom line you will need to decide what you will and will not live with. Passive aggression is learned behavior and usually deep rooted. He will probably need some serious counseling to help him learn new communication/coping skills. If he will not get the help, you could go talk with a counselor and they could help you with some things for you to try for yourself, then you will probably need to decide what you need to do at some point. Good luck.


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## trey69

Katiebird said:


> Just a brief update. Ended up "talking" a few days ago - it was amazing after talking with folks here that I was able to recognize patterns that I had not seen before. He tried to turn things around, "you make me do this" - I told him that he was in control of his reactions and responses and I was not responsible. He said he "tried to apologize" - i told him i did not ever hear the word "sorry" for over a week. He said I need to just forgive and forget - let it go. We didn't continue the conversation long - it ended pretty much how conversations normally do - no where. We are at least talking a bit now. BTW - he is somewhat of a hoarder - so i decided to go thru some stuff this weekend. I was a bit surprised to find some "soft porn" stuff among things. It looks like stuff that had been around for awhile. This kind of took me by surprise - as he has always claimed to be religious. I know that this may be somewhat normal for guys - but it still hurts a bit since most of the girls look nothing like me (different haircolor, eye color etc.) - even when I was young - which I am not any more. So - I find myself waking up at night wondering. We have not had sex for over six months & he is still sleeping in the other room. Tonight he commented on the fact that a lady at work was so much fun to be around - always joking and stuff. Just another little jab. I still wonder if I am the one that is crazy - and this is just little stuff that should just overlook. So I am still confused . . .


It could just be passive aggression or something more. Has he been to a doctor before? Have you talked to a doctor or counselor and told them what you told us here?


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## DiZ

Katiebird said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Really? You don't see P/A in this? I can't remember how many birthdays and anniversaries he has forgotten. If you talk w/ anyone they would tell you what a nice, easy going guy he is. But at home, if I ask him to do something it is "are you trying to start something w/me?" or just ignore my request. On trips he can be fine with everyone and stop talking to me & I haven't a clue why. Then he does things like hurry way ahead if me on sightseeing trips. As for putting up w/ this - yes I have but not without trying to talk w/ him about it. It seems like I am just going to have to completely ignore his behavior and let him do what he will.


WOW the way your husband acts on trips sounds exactly what mine does. It has gotten to the point where I do not want to go on trips with him anymore. He has ruined every vacation we have ever been on. He completely ignores me, talks to everyone else but me. When I pointed this out once he said oh I see you all the time and never see them. I told him that was not a reason to ignore the supposed most important person in your life! When he does talk to me on trips it's to either give me an order in a very crabby tone of voice or say something very rude to me. His family has even noticed this. His whole personality changes when we are on vacation. When we are at home alone he is as sweet as pie. I do not understand this at all. Also he walks way ahead of me on trips while all the other couples are next to each other having a good time. I hate it.


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## DiZ

Katiebird said:


> I've posted and deleted and now am posting again. I want to see if I am crazy. Married 20 years - second marriage. I think my husband is passive aggressive and I really don't know what to do about it. Some things he has done . . . forgotten birthdays (multiple) forgotten anniversaries (multiple), started and never finished multiple househould projects . . . one - a major renovation - is going on unfinished for 10 + years . . . "forgets" to tell me when his kids are coming over for dinner, visits, if I am sick (which thankfully is rare) - he pretty much ignores me - etc. Tends to be at his worst when we are either traveling or have company . . . usually my adult kids and their families. Sometimes he is ok but sometimes, when I ask for a small favor - retreive an item or something, it turns into a major issue - he makes it a grand point of doing exactly what he wants to do . . . or pretending he doesn't hear and then HE gets mad at me saying he is blamed for everything. Then he turns around and acts as if everything is fine. Because it is usually when we are around other people I am not able to call him on it without creating a huge scene - which I won't do - and I think he knows it. But I am finding I am resenting it and then I am refusing to talk with him . . . which I think just feeds into it . . . making him feel like the poor victim. I am at my wits end. This ruined the last few days of a visit with kids and grandkids, since he tends to sulk and avoid everyone when he is like this. The other thing I need to point out is that he is *extremely *critical of everyone. The neighbors are all idiots. His boss is a jerk and an idiot as are all the people he works with. Neither of us are young chickens and I know that much about his childhood has made him like this. At one point, several years ago, I told him I thought he was passive aggressive and gave him an article to read and he said, "yup, you are probably right . . ." and that was the end of that. If anything gets done, plans made, research on anything like refinance, etc., I have to be the one to do it. I am just plain tired of this. I have tried counseling before and did not find it terribly useful and now money is even tighter. So I am feeling a bit stuck.[/SIZE][/FONT]


WOW again he sounds a bit like my hubby. Everyone who is not like him is an idiot. My hubby is outgoing. I am not. We have a neighbor who is very nice but quiet. Just because this person is not talkative he is useless according to my husband. I tell him not everyone is like you. Not everyone goes up and down the street making friends. 

When we went to visit his son he made friends with the neighbors in two seconds and cooked for them, etc. His son barely had met these people and they live next to them. His daughter in law got upset and I don't blame her. Now these neighbors are calling them day and night to borrow things, etc. My husband opened that door. 

We have neighbors that always call us for favors and I get sick of it because my husband has gone out of his way to be friendly and now they are taking advantage.


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## turnera

DiZ, read Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men, by Bancroft. It will tell you everything you need to know about what to do about your husband.


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## turnera

Sounds like you AND your DIL need to learn how to say no.


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## DiZ

turnera said:


> DiZ, read Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men, by Bancroft. It will tell you everything you need to know about what to do about your husband.


thank you so much I will be sure and try and get that book. It helps so much to understand the WHY. Why they act this way and then turn it around to make you feel like it's your fault.


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## DiZ

DiZ said:


> thank you so much I will be sure and try and get that book. It helps so much to understand the WHY. Why they act this way and then turn it around to make you feel like it's your fault.


I ended up already finding the book at the library and on my way to get it out. He is out of town till Sat. so it's the perfect time. I hesitated as I think ABUSE??? is that really happening to me? But it is abuse, mental abuse. I never even thought of it that way. Thank you again.


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## MmHo

Katiebird said:


> Just a brief update. Ended up "talking" a few days ago - it was amazing after talking with folks here that I was able to recognize patterns that I had not seen before. He tried to turn things around, "you make me do this" - I told him that he was in control of his reactions and responses and I was not responsible. He said he "tried to apologize" - i told him i did not ever hear the word "sorry" for over a week. He said I need to just forgive and forget - let it go. We didn't continue the conversation long - it ended pretty much how conversations normally do - no where. We are at least talking a bit now. BTW - he is somewhat of a hoarder - so i decided to go thru some stuff this weekend. I was a bit surprised to find some "soft porn" stuff among things. It looks like stuff that had been around for awhile. This kind of took me by surprise - as he has always claimed to be religious. I know that this may be somewhat normal for guys - but it still hurts a bit since most of the girls look nothing like me (different haircolor, eye color etc.) - even when I was young - which I am not any more. So - I find myself waking up at night wondering. We have not had sex for over six months & he is still sleeping in the other room. Tonight he commented on the fact that a lady at work was so much fun to be around - always joking and stuff. Just another little jab. I still wonder if I am the one that is crazy - and this is just little stuff that should just overlook. So I am still confused . . .


Katiebird, I feel for you as I know exactly what you are going through...you could be talking about my STBXH... exactly the same. The PA side of him was always present... I gave up asking him for anything as he would not do it.
Eventually after only 18months of marriage I was told by his adult daughter that he was BPD/PA. She told me to read the books!

Then I began standing up to him(trying to understand him never worked as it was all my fault anyway!:scratchhead. Thats when his behaviour really escalated to a whole new level... well within a few months I left. Went back... behaviour was still as bad...left again a few months later and will never go back.

It took 2years of persistent gaslighting from him, verbal, emotional and physical abuse to find the courage to get out.
I have been a total emotional and physical wreck since leaving as I have nightmares every night and could not stop going over the nasty evil things that he did to me.

Even when we have been separated he has carried on with the PA behaviour and emotional abuse so I had to cut off all contact.
I have changed my phone numbers, blocked emails, changed my name by deed poll back to my previous name as the thought of being associated with him in anyway makes me feel sick to my stomach.
Just waiting for the divorce to go through and hopefully I will never set eyes on him again.:smthumbup:


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## DiZ

MmHo said:


> Katiebird, I feel for you as I know exactly what you are going through...you could be talking about my STBXH... exactly the same. The PA side of him was always present... I gave up asking him for anything as he would not do it.
> Eventually after only 18months of marriage I was told by his adult daughter that he was BPD/PA. She told me to read the books!
> 
> Then I began standing up to him(trying to understand him never worked as it was all my fault anyway!:scratchhead. Thats when his behaviour really escalated to a whole new level... well within a few months I left. Went back... behaviour was still as bad...left again a few months later and will never go back.
> 
> It took 2years of persistent gaslighting from him, verbal, emotional and physical abuse to find the courage to get out.
> I have been a total emotional and physical wreck since leaving as I have nightmares every night and could not stop going over the nasty evil things that he did to me.
> 
> Even when we have been separated he has carried on with the PA behaviour and emotional abuse so I had to cut off all contact.
> I have changed my phone numbers, blocked emails, changed my name by deed poll back to my previous name as the thought of being associated with him in anyway makes me feel sick to my stomach.
> Just waiting for the divorce to go through and hopefully I will never set eyes on him again.:smthumbup:



My hubby always does what I ask and then some. So that isn't an issue with me. 

Mostly for me it is the way he acts when we go someplace. His whole personality changing and his focus on everyone but me for the whole time. It really hurts.


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## turnera

People who bend over backwards for everyone else usually have a severe self esteem problem. They think they are unworthy, not as good as the rest of the people, just waiting for everyone to figure that out, so they are continuously trying to prove to them how good they are.

You, on the other hand, are the only person in the world who he believes will not harm him, so he is 'safe' to treat you like crap; YOU won't leave. So he can focus on pleasing everyone else. Plus, being rude to you makes him feel better than at least ONE person.


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## DiZ

turnera said:


> People who bend over backwards for everyone else usually have a severe self esteem problem. They think they are unworthy, not as good as the rest of the people, just waiting for everyone to figure that out, so they are continuously trying to prove to them how good they are.
> 
> You, on the other hand, are the only person in the world who he believes will not harm him, so he is 'safe' to treat you like crap; YOU won't leave. So he can focus on pleasing everyone else. Plus, being rude to you makes him feel better than at least ONE person.


You have really made me think. After reading that book I have so much to think about.

I do think he is very insecure even though he acts like he is not. He puts on a good act. He has almost a pathological want for everyone to like him.

The funny thing is he admits to me that he is rude. That is how he justifies it, he just says yes I am rude, I am hard to work with. He was a boss at work and his boss even had to pull him aside many times to tell him he was too hard on people.

He has said he has learned a lot from me, how to have better manners and not be rude but when we fought once he put that down. He said you always want me to be nice and say please and thank you, he said that to me in a horrible tone of voice. So I think that is how he really feels. It's like his whole personality is a fake act.


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## trey69

Its time to set boundaries for respect in your relationship, if he can't show respect, then you need to rethink why you are staying, period. Life it to short to continue to put up with people are who are unwilling to change, selfish and shows lack of respect for those they claim to love.


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## turnera

DiZ said:


> You have really made me think. After reading that book I have so much to think about.
> 
> I do think he is very insecure even though he acts like he is not. He puts on a good act. He has almost a pathological want for everyone to like him.
> 
> The funny thing is he admits to me that he is rude. That is how he justifies it, he just says yes I am rude, I am hard to work with. He was a boss at work and his boss even had to pull him aside many times to tell him he was too hard on people.
> 
> He has said he has learned a lot from me, how to have better manners and not be rude but when we fought once he put that down. He said you always want me to be nice and say please and thank you, he said that to me in a horrible tone of voice. So I think that is how he really feels. It's like his whole personality is a fake act.


Yep. I'm married to the same guy. Except he's a great boss - he's a salesman/people person who brings people around him. 

But your H saying you always want him to show manners, you should respond "Of course I do - I deserve and expect the same level of courtesy that you show to everyone else. If you don't think I do deserve it, then I guess I'm married to the wrong person."


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## sculley

diwali123 said:


> You are not crazy, he is trying to make you think you are. Mine always insisted that everything was my fault or we both were wrong. I agree with the suggestion to just tell him to go for it and call
> his bluff when he talks about other women.
> I will always remember at the height of his PA craziness before he started taking meds, we went on a trip to go to his grandmas funeral. He was getting huffy about the AC controls, the radio, whose turn it was to drive.
> I was driving and trying to ignore him but I could see the escalation happening.
> I didn't know what exit to get off on and he started full blown scowling, eye rolling, evil stare like he hated me.
> I got off the highway and went to McDonald's, got out of the car and he took off.
> He was gone for 20 minutes. You don't know how much I wanted to drive home.
> To most people that would seem like a small thing but when
> you live with someone punishing you with their moods and stonewalling every day you can't take it anymore.
> He came back and we talked and he said out of the blue incredulously "do you really think our problems are because of me???"
> I said "yes!"
> I think for a while he was on board and he took antidepressants, realized he wanted a baby and was on his best behavior until she was born. Then he turned into Satan.
> It's not you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Yeah I have seen this on every darn vacation I have taken with my husband it can get annoying after awhile. I made him go up north last week by himself for an appt that I usually accompany him with (usually always fighting) he kept texting how he was bored and missed me etc....I just gaffed it off because it was just better that way.


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## DiZ

turnera said:


> Yep. I'm married to the same guy. Except he's a great boss - he's a salesman/people person who brings people around him.
> 
> But your H saying you always want him to show manners, you should respond "Of course I do - I deserve and expect the same level of courtesy that you show to everyone else. If you don't think I do deserve it, then I guess I'm married to the wrong person."


You are right on! That is what I told him. He now says I have taught him so much. Well that is good. I always am aware of how I talk to him. Of course no one is perfect and will be snarky once in awhile. I am going thru the change...enough said. BUT to be consistently rude to the one person who should mean the most to you is just wrong.


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## turnera

Talk is good...but you have to back it up with REAL CONSEQUENCES. These are what are called boundaries and consequences; what YOU do if HE crosses your boundary.

You are not telling him what to do (very important) - you are telling him that YOU will not accept ABC behavior in your life, from him or anyone, and if it happens to you, you will do XYZ. And then you DO it.

Easy example: 
You: Husband, when people yell at me, it hurts my feelings AND my self esteem, so to protect myself, I will have to remove myself from any situation in which I'm being yelled at.

H: Great, good idea.

(later) H: Why the hell did you DO that? How stupid ARE you?

You: H, I told you I can't be around someone who raises their voice; I'm going to go iron in the bedroom.

(following you to bedroom) H: I'm not DONE yet! You can't leave when I'm not DONE!

(going to car) You: H, I told you I won't accept yelling any more. (less explanation, escalating consequences by leaving house for 2 hours)

(get home; H has been waiting to finish yelling) H: Who do you think you ARE?! NO one walks away from me.

You: (crickets chirping as you turn right around, get in the car, drive to a hotel and stay there overnight, WITHOUT answering the phone)

(next day, you drive home; he's waiting) H: I'm sorry, I know you didn't want to get yelled at, I just couldn't help myself.

You: Thank you for apologizing. But you CAN help yourself, you choose not to. And if it happens again, I will leave again. And if it keeps on happening, I'll know that you value yourself more than me, so I'll have no choice but to get a divorce. That's totally up to you and what you do. (give him a hug)


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## Katiebird

Turnera - you have some great ideas that work really well when it is just the two of you. However, as many PA's will do, they tend to do these things when there is company in the house and he knows he has you because you won't say anything, or leave - you just take it. OR he will do it when you are on vacation and already staying in a hotel or with family - possibly with family members nearby . . . these are just no-win situations. If you do make a stink - you run the risk of ruining a family gathering for EVERYONE. If you bite your tongue and suck it up, usually you are the only one that feels shafted - which is still a s^#$$& feeling, but at least he didn't manage to ruin it for everyone.


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## turnera

You know how to stop it? You TELL the other people what you are going to do. 

Trust me, they KNOW. They KNOW what an ass he is. They have been waiting for you to stand up for yourself. Get in on the joke.


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## abandonedcompletely

turnera said:


> You know how to stop it? You TELL the other people what you are going to do.
> 
> Trust me, they KNOW. They KNOW what an ass he is. They have been waiting for you to stand up for yourself. Get in on the joke.


I agree with Turnera. The others, they do know and do see it.

My husband would try that. I would tell him right in front of everyone "that was very disrespectful. Knock it off". That stopped it.

PA people remind me of children. Just as a child will act up when out in public, thinking they will get away with it. I just do what I've done with my own children, which is deal with them regardless if we're in public or not. Otherwise, it will keep happening.

Now, that didn't stop all my husband's PA behavior and I'm still working on leaving, but it did stop it in front of others.

Funny thing with some PA people is that many think the rest of us think the same way they do :scratchhead:


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## turnera

Oh, yes, they do! They are usually flummoxed when we actually try to put a stop to it! That's why negotiating with a PA won't work; they just think YOU are trying to PA THEM. Either that, or you're kissing up, which is what they want.

The only thing that works is boundaries - what YOU will accept - and consequences - what happens to them if they do what you won't accept.

It's not easy. One time, long before I learned better, DH called me from our church where he was working. Wanted me to come pick him up. I had to finish something I was in the middle of, so I didn't get in the car for another 5 minutes or so. By the time I got close to the church, I saw him walking down the street. Now, the unaware would say, so what? He was trying to meet me halfway. But we spouses of PAs know better. He was teaching me a lesson. He was putting himself in the position of power by becoming the 'victim' of my 'selfishness' by not zipping right up to church to get him. And I fell for it. I pulled over, tried to talk to him, talk him down, and that just fed his ego even more; kept walking. So I had to go make a uturn, drive back around and catch up with him again and BEG him to get in the car! Which he finally did, which officially made me in the doghouse. 

What would I do today? If I saw him walking, I'd pull over and say 'oh, did you decide to walk home? Ok, see you back home.' And drive off.


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## Jamison

PA need to be called out on their behavior. Then the boundary you have set for yourself you put into action and go about your business. If it something you feel you can not live with,and yes it will likely come to that point, then you go from there.


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## Katiebird

Ok. So I agree that others are probably aware of what is going on. So, if you set a boundary that is something like "If you snipe me or stonewall me I am going to call you on it, no matter where we are or with who" do you set that boundry ahead of time? do you let him know that is your intention?


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## turnera

Yes, you tell him ahead of time. But not in terms of 'I'm gonna make you look bad.' He'll twist that around on you. You find a good tiime when nothing's going on and you say "I've been thinking a lot about my life and I realized I have to make some changes on how I deal with things, to save my sanity. For instance, it really embarrasses me when you yell at cashiers, and it happens a lot. So to stop feeling bad when it happens, I'm going to start carrying the keys in my purse and, if it happens, I'm going to leave the store and wait for you in the car. I just wanted to let you know."


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## turnera

Or, 'H, I've noticed that our friends get uncomfortable when you ridicule me in front of them. Now, I need to stop accepting it just for myself, for my own well-being, which I'm doing, but I'm also doing it because our friends don't need to be seeing it. So if you make fun of me in front of our friends, I'm going to say something to you about it, in front of them, to ask you to stop. I just wanted you to know.'


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## AFEH

Katiebird said:


> Ok. So I agree that others are probably aware of what is going on. So, if you set a boundary that is something like "If you snipe me or stonewall me I am going to call you on it, no matter where we are or with who" do you set that boundry ahead of time? do you let him know that is your intention?


There’s something really significant about boundaries that might not be so obvious. And that is if you have made a boundary very clear but your partner ignores it, it tells you a great deal about what they actually think of you.

The most significant thing it tells you is that because they haven’t respected your boundary, they don’t respect who you are as a person. If they don’t respect you that can have pretty dire consequences as it opens you up for all sorts of abuse from them. Even but not limited to actual bullying either emotional or physical.


So if you set a boundary and your partner ignores it, trashes it try not to get upset or respond at all. Just let it go, pass you by.


Later sit down and contemplate what your future will be with a partner who does not respect you for who you are as a person.

And keep in mind that their lack of respect may well not have anything at all to do with the person you are. In that it may well not matter who your partner is with they will never respect their boundaries.


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## diwali123

I just have to put this out there and I'm not trying to be negative but be prepared just in case. In my situation with my ex if I went in a room without him he would start moving stuff around, sometimes ripping things up like our wedding picture. If I wanted to leave the house he would take my keys, stand in my way. I told him if he did it again I would call the police so next time he threatened to slash his wrists and locked himself in the bathroom. Police took him to the ER and he BS'd the doctor and they let him go. 
I truly hope and pray that no one here has to go through the hell of dealing with such a sociopathic PA. But sometimes the more you up the ante the more they do too. 
Good luck, my heart goes out to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DiZ

turnera said:


> DiZ, read Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men, by Bancroft. It will tell you everything you need to know about what to do about your husband.



I got the book out of the library and spent all weekend reading it. What an eye opener.


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## turnera

diwali123 said:


> I just have to put this out there and I'm not trying to be negative but be prepared just in case. In my situation with my ex if I went in a room without him he would start moving stuff around, sometimes ripping things up like our wedding picture. If I wanted to leave the house he would take my keys, stand in my way. I told him if he did it again I would call the police so next time he threatened to slash his wrists and locked himself in the bathroom. Police took him to the ER and he BS'd the doctor and they let him go.
> I truly hope and pray that no one here has to go through the hell of dealing with such a sociopathic PA. But sometimes the more you up the ante the more they do too.
> Good luck, my heart goes out to you.


I'm sorry you had to endure that. But, for others who are reading this trying to figure out what to do, I want to say that - if you just LEAVE the SOB, he no longer has any power over you. He can wail away all he wants, he can rip up his OWN pictures, and it will never affect you. He can threaten to slit his wrists all he wants, but you won't be there to hear it.

Removing yourself from the situation takes away his ability to manipulate.


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## turnera

DiZ said:


> I got the book out of the library and spent all weekend reading it. What an eye opener.


I know, right? 

I learned about it when my DD21 did a high school project on dating abuse (after dating an abuser), and she turned it into a school-wide presentation (to the girls). I wish ALL schools taught this stuff.


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## diwali123

Not if you have kids together it doesn't. They just use the kids to get to you. Yes it is 100 times better not living with him but I still have to deal with his manipulations with our child. 
I might read that book just so I can get some insight into it, in terms of my daughter. 
I hope that like I said no one else has to deal with someone who is so cruel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lamaga

Oh, Diwali, my H's ex does that with the kids. It's crazy-making, they are HER CHILDREN! But if he makes her mad, she takes it out on the kids. He knows he is being manipulated, but he doesn't want his kids to suffer.

Oh yeah, she's got his number...fortunately the youngest are 17, so not much longer.


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## turnera

diwali, I've seen many cases like yours over the years. The best they can do is just use the boundaries/consequences and teach it to their children...until the kids are old enough to leave.


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## sec33

All of these letter sound like me. However, I have been married for 55 years and I am just finding out what is wrong. I feel that I have wasted my life trying to deal with this man and from what I read there is no hope for change. I have no idea what it feels like to be loved and cared about by my husband. For years I begged for him to love me. I finally quit that. 
For you ladies that are younger than I am, leave him now. At 70+ I have no where to go. 

A life wasted because of PA


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## turnera

Where do you live, sec?

My H did something today, I was in tears, and he left and I was talking to DD21 about it. She said that she told him once that if he would just come up to me after doing one of these things, apologize, hug me, and let me know he cared, it would make a big difference to me. I then burst into tears again, and DD21 thought she upset me and I said no, it's just that in over 33 years, he has never once done that. When he does something wrong, his dysfunction causes him to just retreat somewhere (like he did this morning) - instead of coming to me to get me to feel better.


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## Katiebird

turnera said:


> She said that she told him once that if he would just come up to me after doing one of these things, apologize, hug me, and let me know he cared, it would make a big difference to me.


Whoa boy . . . this hit a chord with me. When we having our little talk last week he said he did apologize but I rejected his apology. What he did was come up to me about an hour after the blowup and offer to do what I had asked several hours earlier. He said that was his apology. I told him that the word "sorry" never crossed his lips and that the actions have to match the words. He said he was busy and he had things to do. I told him I was trying to get a meal done for a group of people that were coming over. He said he had to water plants or they would have died. Truly, a heartfelt "I am sorry" and an effort to give me a hug would make a HUGE difference . . . even now. But it will never come.


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## turnera

Plants would have died in the 30 minutes it took him to help you. Right.

I've had that exact same discussion: the 'never crossed your lips' one.


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## sec33

Question. Since I have just discovered that my husband is a PA. Do I tell him what I have learned. I am thankful that he is not physically aggressive so I am not afraid of him. What do you think?


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## turnera

NO! You never tell such a person what they are. Abusers HURT YOU with your own knowledge. Do NOT do anything with or about him until YOU have gone into intense, months-long therapy BY YOURSELF. Please don't talk to him about this. Get to a therapist and start fixing yourself. You will NEVER 'fix' him. And start reading every book and article you can get your hands on about mental abuse. Start with Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men, by Bancroft. It is the bible of abuse books.


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## Katiebird

turnera said:


> NO! You never tell such a person what they are. Abusers HURT YOU with your own knowledge. Do NOT do anything with or about him until YOU have gone into intense, months-long therapy BY YOURSELF. Please don't talk to him about this. Get to a therapist and start fixing yourself. You will NEVER 'fix' him. And start reading every book and article you can get your hands on about mental abuse. Start with Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men, by Bancroft. It is the bible of abuse books.


I am not sure I completely agree with you. I agree about reading and getting as much information as possible and about changing the way you react to him, but very few of us can afford months and months of therapy. That might be the ideal way, but for most, it is just not possible - particularly those on fixed incomes. I am still searching and researching and I _obviously _don't have the answers, but it seems that if you are going for months and months seeing a therapist, there is still resentment building on your part - even with the help of a therapist. Don't get me wrong. I have done the therapy route before and while somewhat helpful, it didn't resolve the issue. At some point there has to be some communication - I would hope it would be two way - and yes, I know that it can be manipulative - but gosh - you have to start somewhere. If it is impossible or unresolved, then you know what you have to do - either live with it or get out.


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## turnera

Here is the real truth of living with an abuser: You either love yourself enough to set VERY HIGH BOUNDARIES AND CONSEQUENCES that you adhere to...or you get out. 

Anything else WILL NOT WORK.

If you can't afford therapy, you can be spending every week at the library getting every free book on abuse you can find; libraries loan books to each other so if yours doesn't have it, they will find it for you.

You can be looking online for abuse forums so you can read story after story after story, to finally realize that YOUR spouse is not the magical exception to the rule, and he ISN'T going to change just because you are nicer to him or because you learned about abuse and think you can discuss it with him.

You can find a local abuse victims' group and join it and start attending regular sessions. In fact, many therapists have group sessions like this that are far cheaper than private sessions. Plus you get a support group to hold you accountable to real change.

You can being making yourself financially independent so that you NEVER have to stay with someone when you're unhappy just because you can't afford to leave.

You can be reaching out to your family and making new friends and getting a lot of support - because taking away your support system is an abuser's typical #1 tool; getting it back will empower you.

Yes, you have to start somewhere.

But it doesn't start with HIM. The ONLY time you should be bringing communication into a marriage with an abuser is AFTER you have gotten all the knowledge that will help you, built up a support system for when he balks or tries to pressure you into changing back into the doormat, gotten your financial ducks in a row so you can go stay at a hotel that night if he rages, and have a plan in place in case he (again) refuses to listen to you and tells you it's all in your head.

To communicate BEFORE that will only get you what you've BEEN getting - nothing or worse.


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> NO! You never tell such a person what they are. Abusers HURT YOU with your own knowledge. Do NOT do anything with or about him until YOU have gone into intense, months-long therapy BY YOURSELF. Please don't talk to him about this. Get to a therapist and start fixing yourself. You will NEVER 'fix' him. And start reading every book and article you can get your hands on about mental abuse. Start with Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men, by Bancroft. It is the bible of abuse books.


Surely with your way Turnera you stay with the guy for a couple of decades and still the issues are unresolved. Why on earth you recommend that to anyone else is way beyond me. You sound like a codependent who never changed.


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## diwali123

I would never use the phrase "passive aggressive" to a PA. It will just make them PA about being PA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

diwali123 said:


> I would never use the phrase "passive aggressive" to a PA. It will just make them PA about being PA.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That makes you a passive aggressive. People who aren’t passive aggressive meet things head on. One is the Hedgehog. The other the Rhino. Guess which is which.

That is the absolute and total essence of the difference. The black and the white. Of course there’s all shades in between.


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## turnera

Of course I am codependent, AFEH. It has taken me 35 years of adulthood to even understand that marriages HAVE problems, and then to study them, and then to study psychology and sociology, and to go through therapy, and to try to overcome my less-than-stellar childhood and all the issues it wrought in me, not to mention the lunatic brother who raised me, the abusive ex-fiance, and the PA husband who's at the mental age of about 12....all in all about 35 years of learning how and what to do...to finally start doing it.

Which is why I finally told my husband less than 30 days ago that if he didn't get mental help that I was moving out.

And which is why I spend SO much effort on forums like this, trying to keep people from spending HALF as many years in hell as I did, hoping they will learn from my experience and learn how to save themselves before they suffer like I did.

I'm not sure what you're saying, though. What exactly is it that you think I'm recommending?


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## turnera

AFEH said:


> That makes you a passive aggressive. People who aren’t passive aggressive meet things head on.


There is a difference between telling a PA that he has a problem and needs to change, and telling a PA that YOU are no longer going to allow yourself to be hurt.


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## sec33

Thanks so much for all of the advice. I had already started doing some of the things you suggested just from reading Codependent No More and Courage to Change. I'm also better off then some because he is more passive then aggressive. For example, when I want something from him he withdraws, i.e. affection, conversation, compliments, etc. So I just ignore him now. I'm also not asking him to go places with me. I say, I'm going do you want to go? Most times he says no and I say ok "friend" will go with me and I leave him setting there. At this age, I'm not going anywhere, but I'm learning not to put up with his crap anymore. Thanks Y'all.


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## Katiebird

Sec33. I think you have a great attitude. I don't want to live a separate life from my H. I would so much rather share things with him, BUT I have, over the last few year, learned to be comfortable with doing things on my own - and have found that I enjoy it! I am doing some civic things and traveling to see my family whether he wants to go or not. I am ok with it and quite honestly - it can be really nice not wondering how he is feeling or if I - or someone else have done something to annoy him. So anyway - I absolutely have no answers but I know I am going to try to set boundaries with him -thanks to some advice from AEFH and others. I have some thinking and some research to do before then but gonna give it at least one more try!


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## AFEH

Passive aggressives are the wounded child. A parent hurt them deeply when they were a child and the PA may well have responded with active anger but just got even more hurt. So they learnt to suppress both their pain and their anger.

But the wounded child did want justice. So they learnt to punish their parent in indirect, untraceable and/or deniable ways.

But there was never any confrontation and there was no “trial” and so justice was never “Seen to be done”, so the child would forever persecute and punish their parent for wounding them even decades in the past. And each time the parent wounded the child, the PA would again get their justice in passive aggressive ways.

The now PA child was in a very difficult situation. They were wounded and persecuting and punishing their parent but at the same time they needed their parent for food and shelter and maybe they had a healthy relationship with their other parent.

And so the child brought what they’d learnt into their teenage years and adult life. They don’t confront when they feel hurt and wounded by their partner. Instead they work on suppressing their feelings but those feelings cannot be suppressed, they wont go away. In fact the more the PA tries to suppress their feelings the more their feelings are kept alive in the present time.

And so their wounds are never healed and they always feel hurt and angry inside even though it may not show on the outside. Slowly but surely their wounds build up and their negative feelings must be expressed in some way or another. But as with their parent the PA believes that if they express their feelings their partner would abandon them or think them not a nice person. Little do they know about true love and commitment in these things.

So the PA’s outing of their feelings is done in such ways that their partner knows not what’s going on. If they do suspect an “attack” and question their PA partner then they find their PA partner well versed in how to deny, how to lie and deceive and how to scapegoat and stonewall because of course that’s what they learned to do as a child and they became experts at it.

The really big problem for the partner of the PA is that the better a partner they are, the less likely their PA partner is to leave them. Because just like their parent, the PA needs their partner to get the way of life they want.

At the end of the day, the partner of a PA becomes, turns into an exceptionally abused person. Because their PA partner persecutes and punishes them for things that sometimes go back decades. But it is very much worse than that. It is as though every single thing, every “loving action” the partner did for their PA partner was worth absolutely nothing, zero, zilch to them. Like whatever they did was a total and complete waste of time, energy and money.

That’s the really saddest part of being married to a PA.


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## sec33

AFEH, wow! That could very well be what happen to my H. His father was very domineering, angry man. So sorry for the little boy that he was and the man he has become. But, I'm still not taking his crap anymore. I can practice tough love.


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## diwali123

I'm not saying don't tell them there's a problem, just don't use the term passive aggressive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Katiebird

AFEH said:


> Passive aggressives are the wounded child. A parent hurt them deeply when they were a child and the PA may well have responded with active anger but just got even more hurt. So they learnt to suppress both their pain and their anger.
> 
> But the wounded child did want justice. So they learnt to punish their parent in indirect, untraceable and/or deniable ways.


You are so right. I know that there was abuse with H growing up and when we were first together he told me how much he resented it and never wanted to do the same to his child. He talked in admirable terms about a sibling that stood up to the abuse. He did not - he simply escaped as soon as he could as far away as he could. He succeeded in not continuing the abuse with his child but sadly I can see some PA tendencies there as well. What I didn't realize is that all that pent up resentment is/was still there - but yet he could never express it to the people that hurt him. I reread some letters I had written to him when we first started dating and I wish I had seen the signs and knew what I was dealing with then. I was talking about the same things that we are still hashing out 20+ years later.


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## turnera

Try 35 years later. I am just this year demanding that DH attend IC or lose me, 35 years after the problems started.


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## AFEH

Katiebird said:


> You are so right. I know that there was abuse with H growing up and when we were first together he told me how much he resented it and never wanted to do the same to his child. He talked in admirable terms about a sibling that stood up to the abuse. He did not - he simply escaped as soon as he could as far away as he could. He succeeded in not continuing the abuse with his child but sadly I can see some PA tendencies there as well. What I didn't realize is that all that pent up resentment is/was still there - but yet he could never express it to the people that hurt him. I reread some letters I had written to him when we first started dating and I wish I had seen the signs and knew what I was dealing with then. I was talking about the same things that we are still hashing out 20+ years later.


I don’t really know how to advise you and anyway I think I would probably be wrong to do so. I just hope my story helps you form some understanding about these things.

I will tell you nothing I ever did worked with my wife. I found the more I tried to teach her about forgiveness, the more concrete she became in her passive aggressive ways. I think this happened because my saying forgive just confirmed that I was some kind of bad guy. It really is crazy stuff. And of course while I was trying to teach my wife healthier ways of handling things, the fact that I’d forgiven her many things was totally over looked. The focus was always on my bad behaviour, never hers. PAs are exceedingly good at those types of things. They never accept any form of responsibility hurting anyone.

But as we know PAs are by no means all bad through and through. My wife had some phenomenal qualities and it’s these that kept me with her for so very long. And their PA beliefs and behaviour do need things to work off and over the course of a marriage those things build up as they are never confronted and resolved.

And so the woman I fell so deeply in love with just got more and more passive aggressive as time went by. Her final act that was just too much for me was that I found out that she’d bare faced lied to me. She sat right by my side and told a story about what had happened the night before in my home and bare faced lied to me. What she’d lied about was not a big deal for me, nothing I couldn’t handle, it just wasn’t a problem. But she’d lied to me and when I found out and confronted her about it she just continued lying and then blame shifting and denying.

It was really crazy making stuff. But this time I persevered with her, I was absolutely determined to get to the bottom of it. Finally she owned up to her deceit and with a surprised look on her face said “Oh! I must have been in denial!”. Yeh, righto. By the time we’d got to this stage I just couldn’t believe a word that came out of her mouth. This after 42 years of being with her.

I knew then that no form of helping her in better ways would ever work. And I discovered boundaries and quickly put some up to protect me from her passive aggression. She actually trashed my boundaries. It was then I truly knew she could not live without her passive aggressive ways and I couldn’t live with them. And so I ended my marriage and I’ve kept it that way. I would dearly love the woman I loved for decades back but she is no longer there, she more or less been consumed by her passive aggression as far as I am concerned.


I will say Katiebird that I am convinced that PAs get worse as time goes by. And that means that living with them gets worse as time goes by. The only way to prevent that from happening is that they get treatment and end their passive aggressive ways.

Maybe just like my wife your husband will hurt you so deeply that you fear him and it ever happening again. And that’s the time you too will end your marriage no matter what other qualities he has.


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## diwali123

I do think they get worse over time and they get worse when you confront them and put boundaries up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Katiebird

I talked with H a few days ago. I started out really positive . . . telling about all the things I appreciated and working into trying to find out what his triggers are particularly when other people are around. Some things he could tell me -money - no surprise but it is funny that what I spend money on is a waste but what he spends money on is ok. Anyway, I agreed to work on the things he mentioned. We touched on a couple things that are really issues for me and he agreed to start working to resolve them . . . well, so far nothing - but I didn't really expect a miracle. When I mentioned one thing a couple days later, he said that I should not nag or get carried away. ok. Then last night I was hit with a couple of zingers about my weight. I had a dr appointment and I mentioned that I told the doctor that I thought i needed to loose weight. The doc told me he thought I was ok as I was. H made a comment that the dr didn't know what he was talking about and then a couple of other comments about how his waist and behind was decreasing and my cabose was expanding. I was kind of dumbfounded and basicly just ignored him and moved on. But as I was thinking about it later, it really hurt . . . and so I couldn't sleep . . . I am not obese. My BMI is slightly over 25 and I would prefer it to be 21-22. I really want to ask him tonight what his perfect female would look like. I think i know and I could be opening a can of worms but it has been so long since I have heard a compliment from him I think I'd like an honest discussion about it. Should I just let it go?


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## sculley

Katiebird said:


> I talked with H a few days ago. I started out really positive . . . telling about all the things I appreciated and working into trying to find out what his triggers are particularly when other people are around. Some things he could tell me -money - no surprise but it is funny that what I spend money on is a waste but what he spends money on is ok. Anyway, I agreed to work on the things he mentioned. We touched on a couple things that are really issues for me and he agreed to start working to resolve them . . . well, so far nothing - but I didn't really expect a miracle. When I mentioned one thing a couple days later, he said that I should not nag or get carried away. ok. Then last night I was hit with a couple of zingers about my weight. I had a dr appointment and I mentioned that I told the doctor that I thought i needed to loose weight. The doc told me he thought I was ok as I was. H made a comment that the dr didn't know what he was talking about and then a couple of other comments about how his waist and behind was decreasing and my cabose was expanding. I was kind of dumbfounded and basicly just ignored him and moved on. But as I was thinking about it later, it really hurt . . . and so I couldn't sleep . . . I am not obese. My BMI is slightly over 25 and I would prefer it to be 21-22. I really want to ask him tonight what his perfect female would look like. I think i know and I could be opening a can of worms but it has been so long since I have heard a compliment from him I think I'd like an honest discussion about it. Should I just let it go?



I think that was completely uncalled for!?!? No you shouldn't ask him what his perfect female would be. No one deserves to be talked to like that. It really sounds like he is either an A($*)#( or he really has problems communicating properly. And to me you wouldn't be nagging if you were holding each other accountable to what ya'll agreed on.


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## turnera

Katie, this whole post is painful to read. You are SO under his thumb that you can't even see it any more. DD21 (psych major) calls it learned helplessness. I want to point out a few things.


Katiebird said:


> Some things he could tell me -money - no surprise but it is funny that what I spend money on is a waste but what he spends money on is ok.


Can I ask you why you didn't say this to HIM? My guess is cos you know it would _set him off_. That's victimspeak for walk on eggshells so as not to get picked on.



Katiebird said:


> Anyway, I agreed to work on the things he mentioned. We touched on a couple things that are really issues for me and he agreed to start working to resolve them


You agree to fix yours, but he agreed to START working on his? Do you see how you even give him slack in your way of speaking? I guarantee it carries through in how you deal with him.



Katiebird said:


> . . . well, so far nothing - but I didn't really expect a miracle. When I mentioned one thing a couple days later, he said that I should not nag or get carried away. ok.


And...then what? Did you ask him why he feels you're not allowed to discuss it? Did you tell him that him saying that makes you feel 'less than' him? Or did you drop it because he says so? More victim movements.



Katiebird said:


> The doc told me he thought I was ok as I was. H made a comment that the dr didn't know what he was talking about and then a couple of other comments about how his waist and behind was decreasing and my cabose was expanding. I was kind of dumbfounded and basicly just ignored him and moved on. But as I was thinking about it later, it really hurt . . . and so I couldn't sleep . . .


Why do you think you couldn't sleep? It wasn't because he SAID those things - that's how he controls you, shuts you up. You couldn't sleep because you were mad at YOURSELF for demanding respect and telling him what you thought about him acting like an *******. YOU cannot speak up to him; you know it, he knows it, I'm sure your whole family knows it (mine did). So you are mad at yourself. Are you ready to start changing that?



Katiebird said:


> I really want to ask him tonight what his perfect female would look like. I think i know and I could be opening a can of worms but it has been so long since I have heard a compliment from him I think I'd like an honest discussion about it. Should I just let it go?


Of course you shouldn't let it go. You've been doing that since the very first abusive thing he did to you. And it's working great so far - for HIM. You...well, you're on a forum asking for help because you are too scared to bring it up to him.

My take: Until you become ready to leave him if he doesn't treat you with as much respect as he gives himself, you will NEVER be happy, feel good, or get what you need. He will never change. Why should he? He is giving you lip service to shut you up and he has no intention of changing what works for him.

If you want to do any work with him, work on the passive aggressiveness and emotional abuse. Stop talking about YOU. Tell him that at this point you don't CARE what he thinks about you because you know you're doing the best you can with an abusive husband. Tell him that the only way you'll stay married is if he finds a way to cut out the PA crap.


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## cloudwithleggs

diwali123 said:


> "I would have a very serious discussion with him. All the while he would say nothing, absolutely not one word. The whole time I was speaking, I would use "I" statements and how a behavior made me feel. I never used any naming calling or derogatory statements."
> I had that experience many times. I could be crying my eyes out, pouring my heart out and get nothing. I'd ask him to say something and he would say "I don't know what you want me to say." I'd say I want him to tell me his thoughts and opinions and he would say he didn't know.
> 
> As for becoming PA, I felt like I had times when I started down that road. There's only so much you can take before you start lashing out. It's also true that partners of PAs who have never been violent will become violent. The PA can't express their anger directly so they push you until you express it for them and then they say "why are you do angry and violent? You need mental help, not me."
> I threw a glass coffee pot on the floor and threw an ironing board at a window and broke it. I had never done those things before but he was driving me crazy.
> 
> My ex insisted that he loved me deeply but wouldn't work on anything. Then two months after our separation he was in a new relationship with his roommate and they've been together for four years. Obviously he had a hard time getting over our 14 years together. It just made me realize he never loved me, he was just using me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


After 11 years of being called every name under the sun including psycho, i do call him every name possible and to be honest i couldn't give a **** what he thinks any more.

I found out he was a PA because he would actually say i was that, funny no one else ever had said that to me, so i went and looked it up and low and behold his behaviour was screaming at me from the page, very insightful.

they go to great lengths to punish and they will push the most even tempered person to the limits, because they are masters of manipulation, it is infuriating because everything is your fault.

just recently twice now he has ruined a day out, the first time we didn't go and the next time he made it so difficult as in not getting up in time even though i said i wanted to leave before 9am, we left at 12 midday, had a blazing row, well i did on my own, hahaha 

i can't wait till i am free, i have never hated or despised a person so much in my life, i have told him i hope he clutches his bible real tight when he dies, as he has cancer again. I think food will kill him first as he is back up to 400lbs and 5' 7" yes he is a food addicted and addicted to pain meds, now your us government is going to pay this loser to stay on state disability, mind he was always taking time off for one reason or another.

the emotional abuse i have suffered from this man has been horrendous, that i have no compassion left in me for him, he has put me in danger, of course to punish me for something that i have no clue, belittled me, insulted me, made me feel ashamed, laughed at me as i cried, all sorts of emotional torture that you'd have to be a mind reader to understand. 

my issue is i have young children with him so i still have to see him, but i wish i didn't.


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## abandonedcompletely

Cloudwithleggs,

I am so sorry for what you are going through. Many of us know how hard it is.

I'm in counseling now, and today my counselor told me that the next time my husband ignores me when I'm in a flare, I could go to a shelter for abused women. I thought "oh my God, I really am in an abusive relationship". It was only last year I realized he was pa... He kept it so well hidden, and made his real actions so obscure, that I had a hard time putting my finger on it or calling him on his behavior. (His pa behavior is very covert and very passive.)

But, not anymore. I found my voice and am calling him on it every time he does it, even with his "I don't know" all the time, or "I can't help it". I don't stand for his helpless attitude anymore when he's called out on his behavior.

I'm just biding my time till I can leave.

In the meantime Cloudwithleggs, realize that it's not you...it's him. This is his problem. You didn't cause it and you can't fix it. Just don't let his issues become yours. You're worth more than that.


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## sec33

I am to the point now that I just laugh. We are in the "he is punishing me mode" and I am just ignoring him and going on with me life with out him. At my age I'm not going anywhere but going off and leaving his butt at home. I would leave him if I had know about this PA at an earlier age.


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