# I don't understand her behavior.



## elscotto

Any other perspectives are always appreciated so thank you in advance.

About a week ago I approached my wife and sat down at the table to discuss what was going on in our lives. The opening line went something like this "I know we both have been under a lot of stress lately and I feel like we are fighting over trivial things that are a symptom of greater issues. I want to get this under control before things are said or done that will make it that much harder or impossible to repair. We have lived half our lives with each other and have too much invested in the blood sweat and tears to have what we have today to watch it gradually slip away"

she said she wasn't sure that she loved me anymore and that she wasn't sure that she wanted to be married to me. Of course, it came out of the blue for me but had a lot of women been a fly on the wall they would have seen it all coming. So I asked her if there was someone else and she said "No, of course as with anyone human there are always going to be people that are interesting that we come in contact with in daily life." Red flag but I let it drop for now.

the next night we had a chance to talk again alone and I told her in no uncertain terms I wanted to be married to her and make things right and that I loved her and did not blame her for not knowing that as I know I have taken her for granted over the years. She says she thinks we might have both changed too much and she is not sure that I could change or if I did change it might not be the real me and she doesn't want to be married to someone that's not genuine.

She is not a good liar so I asked her again at this point if there is someone else and she responded that there is someone she is interested in. I asked her who and she said its not about them but about me and her. (I disagree when someone is threatening the well being of my kids--whether its my wife or a 3rd party) So she refused to tell me who it was.

That night I was unable to get to sleep, unable to stay asleep and got up at 3:00am and put a keylogger on her laptop. The virus software found it and alerted her so she found that and is PO'd at me. 

We are planning on seeing a counselor in a couple of days after the labor day weekend. 

The questions come in here. We were so much more amicable BEFORE I sat down and wanted to fix things although the last 6-8 weeks she has been VERY defensive. My guess is the defensiveness corresponds to her emotional affair with the guy she i interested in. Even before the keylogger incident she was hostile toward me after I sat down and said I wanted to work on things. I thought my going to her would be viewed as a positive and a sign I valued our relationship and saw it was off the tracks.

when we are in public or with friends she is like her old self being very friendly and genuinely laughing at my jokes and engaged in conversations. The second we walk away from them and just the two of us she will only answer or acknowledge my comments with one word answers such as "Hmmm" or if I ask her something she will say "Doesn't matter to me." Again, loads and loads of hostility even to start the day. When she is that openly hostile I don't respond in kind but just calmly rephrase my question or repeat it to get a logical response instead of being baited into a confrontation. 

I know she is PO'd about the keylogger and I know it was wrong to violate her privacy. That signifies to her a loss of trust from me but I have to say I think she candidly surrendered the privilege of trust with her internet emotional affair.

What are your thoughts all and I am sorry for the long note. I tried to break it up for easier reading.

Thanks


----------



## Corpuswife

She's PO'd about the logger because she is defensive. 

You have every reason to be suspicious.

She interested in this guy or already involved..you bet.

You can tell how interested she is if she wants to save the relationship and do what it takes. If not, you can't do it alone.

I've learned alot in the past 11 months or so. You can't beg, plead, or convince anyone to work on the marriage. If they are involved in an affair or want out because of the grass is greener.

Stepping back and working on yourself is the best. I've been separated for 2 months after 24 years of marriage. It hasn't been easy but I am getting stronger every day. It's all how you approach adversity. Build yourself up...you will be more attractive that way to her.


----------



## elscotto

Hmmmm Thanks Corpus-- you validated a lot of what I have been feeling. In her words she is interested and based on my knowledge of her schedule it hasn't evolved into anything else yet. She has said twice emphatically that she has NOT done anything wrong and I pointed out that if she was uncomfortable with me knowing about it then it was inappropriate and therefore wrong.

As I think about this I am starting to think this has less to do with me being and a$$hole and a bad husband and more to do with her thinking about another person.

I think that's why she is now being so mean to me because if she can bait me into being a mean person with her then it justifies the inappropriate behavior on her side. As a matter of fact she has been really bad to be around for the last 2 months and many times i would fall for the bait.

I made up my mind that I was going to be a strong and confident person around her and otherwise so if she is looking for me to be the bad guy to justify her behavior it isn't happening.


----------



## elscotto

Oh one more thing as we were sitting talking I point blank asked her if she was being unfaithful and she said no she couldn't do that. Then she went on to ask me if I had and I said no although there were times I had felt like I was entitled to it for various reasons (notably lack of sex) but I could never bring myself to do it.

I asked her why she asked and she said almost matter of factly "I just figured you had with all the travel and places you had been over the years that it probably had happened" and I was floored--both at the fact that she could have said that matter of factly and and the fact that she said it.


----------



## Blanca

elscotto said:


> I think that's why she is now being so mean to me because if she can bait me into being a mean person with her then it justifies the inappropriate behavior on her side. As a matter of fact she has been really bad to be around for the last 2 months and many times i would fall for the bait.


ya, i think you are dead on. and the fact that she said she figured you cheated on her. can you get a copy of the phone record? im sure you can find out who she's talking to.


----------



## elscotto

Yep since we are on the same family plan i can log in and note every day and time of the calls, texts, etc...That's the weird thing is there is NOTHING there. I work in the tech industry so am pretty savvy about how to do some of this stuff including add'l things that quite frankly would scare the pants off people to know can be done. I can track almost everything with the exception of facebook type postings that go via sms subscriptions to a cell phone. In that case the person sending the message is shrouded behind a facebook cloud and the other thing i can't grab is the content of the text messages. The only thing I can assume is that when I sent the kids and her to a trip to Thailand and Korea (I didn't have the vacation and couldn't go because we own a couple of small businesses and I use vacay time for the businesses) this summer when she got back things deteriorated FAST so something must have happened there with someone on the trip but not sexually because there were 21people around and shared rooms all the time. i think she has a pipe dream in her head of something that "could be" with someone from the trip because she seems a little defensive about it.

Now, as an update to all of you:

Stardate Captains log 90709: She wakes me up at 6 this morning and says she doesn't want to go to the counseling appointment we have set up tomorrow because she has made up her mind that she doesn't want to fix things. I asked her why and she says she doesn't love me and its not important to fix things for her and she isn't sure that we were ever right for each other to begin with. I was incredulous and asked her so 21 years of being together "might" have been a mistake for you? 3 beautiful kids, a beautiful home etc.... was something that coincidentally you accrued. 

I told her the purpose of the counseling was not to "save" our marriage but was to effectuate change. 1. We figure out a way to be more civil and nice to each other which would bode well either during a split or a reconciliation. 2. We make our our mind that the change of separation is right for one or both of us. 3. We decide that we can and do want to stay together and be a loving couple again.

I think she is scared of what will come out. I know it actually and i think her concern is that it will force her to deal with the real issue. She acquiesced finally and said she'd go which is I think huge. Her other "interest" will come out--not by me but I think any skilled therapist will get to that in short order. That should be interesting.

The other thing is i asked her after this opening salvo on her part this morning was if she had thought through the implications of this all. She responded yes in terms of family, friends etc...I said no I was really thinking about the complexities of our lives and how intertwined they were. I asked her if she thought about what the divorce would cost us in terms of dollars from our assets? More on the next post on this subject.


----------



## jsniceguy

wow that sounds very similar to my situation but it hasn't gotten to that point yet. Do you feel that every time you try to discuss it with her it is an inconvenience and seems to make things worse? In your situation - make sure that you keep your cool and continue to focus on yourself and the person you are. If she does not choose to do counseling it is not a bad idea to look into it for yourself for no other reason than to be able to talk with someone completely free.


----------



## knortoh

I have been going through really similar experiences with my H for over 10 months. I think it is tricky for us to accept that someone we love so much could be dishonest or at least short on honesty. I have learnt the hard way to pretty much ignore what he says now - because I have heard it all - "I don't think I have ever really loved you and I have always loved you" ....and now I just look at his actions - the telling ones - 
1. took off his wedding band, 
2. stopped going to relationship counselling, 
3. found himself somewhere to live, 
4. moved out - all the while saying "i don't know doesn't mean No" and "I can't stand the idea of you with another man"...." I don't see it as we are separated - just married but living apart"....
It ain't exactly what I call a marriage!


----------



## elscotto

jsniceguy said:


> wow that sounds very similar to my situation but it hasn't gotten to that point yet. Do you feel that every time you try to discuss it with her it is an inconvenience and seems to make things worse? In your situation - make sure that you keep your cool and continue to focus on yourself and the person you are. If she does not choose to do counseling it is not a bad idea to look into it for yourself for no other reason than to be able to talk with someone completely free.


JS--you are right on wrt keeping cool. You are also dead on in that nothing is ever convenient for her. I'll cover that in the follow up below.

Thanks for the reply.


----------



## elscotto

Update:

So after I laid out the reasons for the counseling she reluctantly agreed to go to counseling for today. I told her that I wanted her going forward to be nice to me in private like she is to me in public and that it bothered me that we could function around other people and laugh at each other and engage each other in conversation. I catch her looking at me at times when I am not talking when we are with other people but she is just patently mean to me when we are alone. One word hmmmm's when I say something and as I pointed out if someone were a fly on the wall they would conclude that she genuinely hates me--period. So I told her no more of that and we HAD to be nice to each other. We are joined at the hip for the next year at least to which she was surprised.

I then laid out that I thought the divorce would cost us a half million dollars in terms of selling assets under market value and attorney and professional fees. She said I was hoping we could just do this amicably and I said as much as I would like to commit to that I saw no way it could be. I grew up poor and worked 80 hour weeks to get where we are and I will not and can not be poor again. I dangled out the possibility of not selling one of the businesses (the one she manages and works in) and she thought that was a great idea. I am not sure-if I wanted to be a hardcase I could force sale of both the businesses and house because she won't have enough liquid cash or credit facilities to buy me out. She is petrified I will do that because it would mean she'd have to go start a new business or go on the job hunt trial. Oh yeah, when I was working 80 hours a week in my last corp job I put her through an MBA program because she wanted to go to school so her brain wouldn't turn to mush.

I know she didn't sleep well last night at all and woke up in a bad mood this morning. She has been very terse with me today and I know she is DREADING this counseling meeting. I am not sure why--but my guess is she has made up her mind its over between us and doesn't want the can of worms or any doubt re introduced. The second thing is she might be forced to address the internet/old bf budding romance and what she can tell me is none of my business she can't tell the counselor.

Thanks or all of the support and insight folks.


----------



## knortoh

I am not sure why--but my guess is she has made up her mind its over between us and doesn't want the can of worms or any doubt re introduced. The second thing is she might be forced to address the internet/old bf budding romance and what she can tell me is none of my business she can't tell the counselor


----------



## knortoh

hmmm 
don't want to be the voice of doom and I sincerely hope it takes you somewhere better but -

at first my H. agreed to go to counselling fairly happily and then as we were going through it I realised that he wasn't 'sharing'. 
I had envisioned this wonderful process where we woudl learn how to communicte with one another and that a full and staisfying 'conversation' would ensue - however I found he would talk in the session but not when we got out and what's worse he would say all sorts of weird stuff outside of the sessions that he didn't in the session. In the end I wrote the counsellor a letter and he ended up pressing my H. on whether he was actually committed to sorting things out or not - it turned out he wasn't and he came home from that meeting saying that "counselling was just something he couldn't do" ...of course he is still happy to see his own counsellor !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## elscotto

We went to the counseling--the first and what appears to be the last session of marriage counseling. The short of it is she told the counselor she didn't want to save it and during discovery the counselor--with me in the room couldn't seem to fina anything tangible so asked me to leave the room.

40 agonizing minutes later I was asked back in to which the counselor asked me to work on the 2-3 things that aggravated my wife that we had put on the board before I left the room.

Then went on to say that the prospects for saving the marriage didn't look good so I guess my wife did a pretty good job of holding her position or providing additional information to substantiate her position while I was out of the room. I'll never know because of patient confidentiality and my wife's lack of willingness to communicate with me on it.

So the counselor told my wife also she recommended seeing an attorney and a separation. To me separation is a step away from a married and a step toward divorce--nothing more or less. The more I think about this I am conflicted as to why I should be the one who gets up and moves out of the house. How is it that my wife will understand the gravity of her decision to turn 5 people's lives upside down if HER life remains the same. She wakes up in the 6k foot house I built and paid for?

I am of the opinion at this point that if she wants to run away from the marriage she should go apartment hunting.

Thoughts?


----------



## knortoh

I agree I think that the person who wants to leave the relationship should leave the house. Facing up to unpleasnat practical consequences is a big part of this - also it is a symbolic thing for the kids....


----------



## elscotto

Thanks Knortoh--I think making this as difficult for her as possible will bring to the cold light of day the reality that is divorce and why its important to make EVERY effort to validate that its the right decision.

If it turns out that it is the right decision it won't be without hurt and heartbreak on all sides including the children but it will be a fact and situation in life that has to embraced, addressed, managed, and closed.

That said the more I think of it the more I am starting to think it might not be half bad to date a woman that appears passionate for me as I am for her and makes me feel like I am important. I haven't felt that for years and I resent it.


----------



## jsniceguy

Completely agree with you on who should be moving out of the house - change should be experienced by the one forcing it. I'm sure you've had plenty of time over your ordeal to reflect on what you liked and disliked about the marriage and your wife...Sometimes it is truly difficult to realize that your needs aren't being met either. From your posts I consider myself to be very similar to yourself both in situation and in attitude - so all the best to you in this process.


----------



## elscotto

jsniceguy said:


> Completely agree with you on who should be moving out of the house - change should be experienced by the one forcing it. I'm sure you've had plenty of time over your ordeal to reflect on what you liked and disliked about the marriage and your wife...Sometimes it is truly difficult to realize that your needs aren't being met either. From your posts I consider myself to be very similar to yourself both in situation and in attitude - so all the best to you in this process.



JS--you sound like a pretty decent person.

the funny thing is now that I am starting to think this thing through less from the "she wants out" and more from the she isn't perfect and if I were to start dating again what would I look forward to and I have to say that there are some things I am looking forward to including a woman that is happy to have me around, who wants to have sex with me etc...I am sick of blonds and thinking of focusing on dark headed darker complected women for a while. I have been tied in with a blond for 20 years.

I went to the dentist today for a routine checkup and decided that I was going to have some cosmetic dentistry done to have the brilliant perfect smile I want. I am going back tomorrow for impressions, am having fillings replaced with porcelin inlays. Cost--5-6k--oh wait this is a half priced sale because every dollar I spend is only half mine potentially anyway. I also hired a personal trainer today to help me sculpt my newly stress cased emaciated fat free body. Funny what eating 3 energy bars and a banana over a 4 day period does for that waistline. I think I am getting a new mountain bike too, a gas grill, and trying to decide what else I might like. Folks its a half price sale for everything right now--half price to me. 

I had to throw some levity in here because it makes me feel good. I hope you all can find some joy while you navigate your issues--


Take Care all!


----------



## knortoh

If it turns out that it is the right decision it won't be without hurt and heartbreak on all sides including the children but it will be a fact and situation in life that has to embraced, addressed, managed, and closed.

That said the more I think of it the more I am starting to think it might not be half bad to date a woman that appears passionate for me as I am for her and makes me feel like I am important. I haven't felt that for years and I resent it.[/QUOTE]


Elscotto I am not convinced that the words 'right' and 'wrong' are the best - by this I mean what is 'right' for her may be all 'wrong' for you and the kids. I was struck by the fact that when it was happening to me I was actully left out of the 'decision making process. So it was a decision for him and I just had to face up to the consequences....


Passion is an interesting one - maybe it's the ability to be really present and to show the other person the capacity that you have to love? 

Do you know that my husband actually told me that he was 'jealous' of the love that I was able to show him and that 'he wanted to feel that'. Needless to say with 'someone else'. I was so shocked that he thought it appropraite to use my love as the measure of what he was looking for in life - it is such a nutty way of looking at things I can hardly bear to think about it.....


----------



## jsniceguy

Thanks for the levity your post made me smile, funny part is that it is true. Go forward strong and stop back anytime you need to get out those emotions that you find difficult to talk to others about. Positive part from my perspective is that I am signed up for my first therapy session Monday.


----------



## elscotto

Well as an update 5:00am pillow talk yielded the answers. Before I get to that I find a certain sense of irony in the fact that she has never been a communicator to me so even opening communications on a subject that is very painful for me and against my wishes must be done by me.

I knew she was awake because of her breathing depth so I asked her about October's event schedule meaning all the weekends and stuff that are already planned with family and friends in addition to a trip to Napa that we had scheduled. She wants to cancel them all except Halloween of course. I understand that. I guess its too late for me to find a date for Napa or I think I might still go--shame to waste some fine wine and two plane tickets....Anyway I ask her about her desire to separate--yeah I HAVE to be the ONE to bring it up--her wish and me to bring it onto the table. How f'ed up is that? So she says she thinks she wants to separate. Great--the topic is now open so I pointed out that we probably had put a great deal of thought into the logistics of that and what did she think? I didn't want to be the bad guy and suggest first that she was out so she mumbled something about an apartment. I had her repeat it and she said "I guess maybe I might look for an apartment because I don't think you want to move out." I said no I didn't and I thought if this is what she wanted I would respect and support her decision but my position on the marriage remains the same.

I think I might actually put some of those October events back on the calendar such as the camping weekend, the party we had schedule for family and friends and just take responsibility for getting things done. My social life shouldn't have to grind to a halt because she wants hers to.

What does everyone think?

BTW--we have an 18th Anniversary on Monday this coming week. I was thinking of no card--either that or inventing a new Hallmark Category entitled "Even though stuff is all f'ed up between us" and just finding something at some boutique off the beaten path that's not too expensive--$100-$200 and tell her I saw it and it made me think of her.

What does everyone think on the Anniversary present thing? 

I already researched it and found out all the jewelry I gave her over the years is hers and not a part of the marital estate--doesn't matter I wanted to give it to her at the time and I don't regret it.


----------



## dobo

Ask her what she wants to do about the anniversary. Saev yourself the hassle. She'll probably say she doesn't want to celebrate or any gift-giving. 

I agree about the events -- put them back on. Her choice for her isn't your choice for you.


----------



## randarama

Look, there are a number of issues here. The first is that you have to take responsibility for your actions without blaming your wife. If you have not taken good care of her, tell her and ask for forgiveness. If she is asking or wanting space, give it to her. If you try to pull her back in, she'll probably rebel and go out even farther. If you a person who believes in God, pray that God will first change your heart, then hers. It sounds at this point, only God will be able to mend everything back together. Try as best you can to be understanding and forgiving. Don't be critical of her, she's going through a very hard time also. 
You're wife may be going through a mid-life crisis. 
Either way, you cannot "make" her come back to you. Stay patient, keeping praying and asking God for Grace and Mercy. Be hopeful, as I am also walking out of this same thing. 
Hang in there, don't allow another woman to creep into your emotions.


----------



## Blanca

i have not been married very long, but i dont think you should get her anything for your anniversary. it'll just add to your resentment later. when i was pissed at my H i didnt get him anything...of course it wasnt our 18th anniversary...it was just our 1st. lol. but still...


----------



## elscotto

Randaram, thanks for the input. I think you are right. In fact since the beginning of this I bore most if not all of the blame but the problem I have is not bearing the blame--its that when someone says they aren't happy or don't love me anymore I think after 18 years of marriage and 21 years of being together and the potential for turning 5 people's lives upside down I deserve more than that simple answer. She has been well taken care of over the years and as I had time to think about it last night more and more I keep thinking back to the early days until now about the fact that she hasn't been very open with me. Never has allowed me really close to her whereas I have been a pretty open book with her and I am not sure we can repair things without a truly two way openess and communication. She knows me inside and out including my fears, my perversions, etc... and I don't know that much about her and its not because I haven't asked her so many times over the years.

That said--she may not truly know why she isn't happy. I don't think in that situation it is unreasonable for her to go to counseling to get to the bottom of it. Is the LEAST she can do to either validate her decision and underlying motive or call it into question. She owes that to the kids if not to me.

I told her that I would be responsive only to things that needed a response and that according to the counselor's direction would limit time and interaction with her to allow her space. I have been living my words.

Regarding the anniversary gift thank you for the words on that all. I am glad I posted the question. I went to an art fair last night with some friends (without her although I told her of my intentions and offered her the opportunity to go) and say a very cool carved Raven. Ravens are one of the smartest creatures alive and picked one out that represented family peace, respect, and ongoing wisdom and harmony. I bought it for her but think per the board's direction I will not give it to her because I don't want her to resent me on the issue--that will make her feel bad and I am not in that game just because.

I want her to move out but am not going to force the issue. She moves hen she wants to move.


----------



## elscotto

On the openess issue also I went to my CPA and asked him for recommendations of attorneys who will not see me and my wife as a huge paycheck and dollar sign. He came back with 6 topnotch attorneys so I made up my mind I would talk with two and hand the other two to my wife so she could evaluate the which she liked and could work with if it came to that. We then have 2 in reserve if needed that we can use for mediation if it comes to that. I had to be careful to not talk 2 of them because I did I would conflict them.

So I called her to let her know what I was doing and why and that I thought it was important to protect our assets regardless of what has happened or might happen and she stammers out that she placed a call to an attorney on Thursday. I asked who and coincidentally it was one of the 4 on my list and one of the 2 I had planned on handing to her. So all is good so far EXCEPT I have to ask:

Why did I--the person who doesn't want this divorce--have to reach out to her and be open to her and be communicative to her in this situation. She is sneaking around behind my back calling an attorney and doesn't tell me until I ask the direct question and this is so representative of our relationship. Nothing is an open book. So I text her the remaining attorney along with her contact information and as I do I am thinking how f'ed up is my life that I am texting my wife with contact information for a divorce attorney?

Either way, it bothered me the more I thought about it last night that once again I was open to her and not vice versa. I don't scream and yell at her, I am not verbally abusive to her, she has nothing to fear from me and she knows it and admitted it in the few minutes we were sitting with the counselor together.


----------



## knortoh

Elscotto,
I think it is really hard for us to stop being 'us' and acting out of character so to speak - if have been open, honest, sensible, and faced up to reality in your realtionship then that is proabably how you are going to do the D. But it is not surprising that you now feel resentful that you are in effect cleaning up the mess - a mess that you didn't want. 

Is there some way - (I know it is tricky) that you can distinguish between doing what you need to do to get through this with the best possible result without looking out for your w's best interests at the same time. If it is a situation where by looking out for her interests also means looking our for yours then try and be clear about that. It is now about negotiation strategies.

If she is feeling guilty you can bet that she won't be open and honest with you - she can't even be this with herself. 

You have a right to angry - but try and not do anything that you don't need to do that only results in resentment.


----------



## elscotto

knortoh said:


> Elscotto,
> I think it is really hard for us to stop being 'us' and acting out of character so to speak - if have been open, honest, sensible, and faced up to reality in your realtionship then that is proabably how you are going to do the D. But it is not surprising that you now feel resentful that you are in effect cleaning up the mess - a mess that you didn't want.
> 
> Is there some way - (I know it is tricky) that you can distinguish between doing what you need to do to get through this with the best possible result without looking out for your w's best interests at the same time. If it is a situation where by looking out for her interests also means looking our for yours then try and be clear about that. It is now about negotiation strategies.
> 
> If she is feeling guilty you can bet that she won't be open and honest with you - she can't even be this with herself.
> 
> 
> Interesting feedback. We just talked a little and I think it's over. I pointed out that it's been a long time since I have experienced true affection as a recipient. She sId she knows this and is and has been incapable for a while-- years actually.
> 
> I asked her what her timetable is or if she had one and she doesn't in terms of moving out. I am cool with her staying for the forseebale future except that it's really screwing up our sleep. Ther is a big part of me that says maybe we need to put this thing to bed and move on with our lives. Tomorrow is our 18th anniversary. On the other hand she says she is 75/25 in favor of divorce. I hate to pushed her the last 25 percent today of there is a legit chance of not screwing up my kids life.
> 
> Should I encourage her to move out now or just bide time and let her sit the fence? Thoughts?
> 
> You have a right to angry - but try and not do anything that you don't need to do that only results in resentment.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## knortoh

Elscotto,
I can hear your confusion - and maybe it is wise to allow yourself a little breathing time -if it is what you want. Is anyone ever 100% sure that they want out of a marriage? I don't know about you but when I heard my H. describe his feelinsg in terms of percentages I was really shocked - I had just never thought you could quantify this stuff.

Having said that my experince of the fence sitting or treading water time was really unpleasant and I ended up having to make my husband leave.


----------



## dobo

Do you really think it is sneaking around to talk to an attorney? She's already told you a bunch of things you don't want to hear so it shouldn't be a shock for you to hear that she went to a lawyer. Further, you're the one who brought up issues about finances and how much this would cost. That she wanted to know if you're just scaring her and what her real options are, is completely understandable. 

You seem to care a lot about money and about having taken care of her over the years. What about loving her? Also, you may be an open book and she might not be, but don't you think that you could have made more an effort to get close to her? If the majority of the early years you were not all you could have been as a husband, does it surprise you at all that she swallowed her needs to avoid arguments but that at this point in her life she doesn't want to do it anymore?

You come off as very analytical and then you mention passion. Doesn't that strike you as odd? Where has your passion for her been all these years?


----------



## elscotto

dobo said:


> Do you really think it is sneaking around to talk to an attorney? She's already told you a bunch of things you don't want to hear so it shouldn't be a shock for you to hear that she went to a lawyer. Further, you're the one who brought up issues about finances and how much this would cost. That she wanted to know if you're just scaring her and what her real options are, is completely understandable.
> 
> You seem to care a lot about money and about having taken care of her over the years. What about loving her? Also, you may be an open book and she might not be, but don't you think that you could have made more an effort to get close to her? If the majority of the early years you were not all you could have been as a husband, does it surprise you at all that she swallowed her needs to avoid arguments but that at this point in her life she doesn't want to do it anymore?
> 
> You come off as very analytical and then you mention passion. Doesn't that strike you as odd? Where has your passion for her been all these years?


Dobo, thanks for the critical analysis. There are some kicks in the shins within your reply, some things I think you astutely point out that have truth, and some things I think you might not be close enough to see accurately.

I do think you are right in on the money issues. I grew up poor and never ever ever wanted to be poor again. To some--great/minor or other extent this has screwed up my relationships. She readily admits that we have never been close to each other as we should have been but the question we both have is why she keeps people at arms reach--hell maybe I do too.

I am also pretty bitter that she has enjoyed a fantastic life with great vacations and never a money issue in the world. I have never tried to limit her spending and she freely admits that.

I don't know really. I know you are beating me up on this whole thing a little which is okay but I think I have been a whole lot harder on me than you could be.

If I didn't have kids I am not sure what i would do but I do and I have to be strong and there for them now.


----------



## jsniceguy

elscotto

Like I have said before but our situations seem to be extremely similar. I think your following of the advice to limit interactions is a wise one. I have found through my situation that you cannot force someone to love you or to interact - Seriously sounds like your wife need to do some individual counseling to understand what is going on in her head before there is any chance to save what you have/had. I may have missed it but are you attending counseling on your own? As always coming to grips with yourself and your strengths will only help you in the future regardless of what happens within your marriage. I do wish you the best and will continue to follow your posts so that I may gain some additional insight for my situation.


----------



## dobo

Resenting giving her creature comforts is missing a lot of the point of marriage. You wonder if you also keep people at arm's length. And that maybe you both do. Isn't that the point of marriage though? For two to become one (you know, within reason, it is darned impossible to actually become one.) It is an ideal to shoot for.

Money isn't everything. It is great to have it and sucks when you don't. But poor people and rich people alike starve for affection and connection and acceptance. 

I'm sorry if I beat you up too much. I know you're hurting. But try to focus on what truly matters, especially if you're doing it for the kids. At the moment mom and dad split up, if they're normal, loving kids and not spoiled brats, they would be willing to give up summer vacations and $200 sneakers for their parents to stay together.


----------



## elscotto

Dobo, you are making a lot of sense. Thanks for the input really.

Where I have mentally gotten to over the last 24 hours is kinda a rude awakening and view of myself. I am not beating myself up only trying to be honest and the fact is if I look up the term "abusive relationship" and "verbal abuser" its me. Period. End of story. I am meeting with a counselor again today at noon and will continue going until I get my head straightened out. My wife says she always feels like I am always angry with her and I have always thought that was preposterous but I am pretty sure she is right and I don't know the cause.

Sometimes the blame begins with the person looking back at you from the mirror and I am starting to really understand and get my mind around her behavior.

I just hope its not too late for me to demonstrate through understanding and change how much she and the kids mean to me.

Thanks again all. I don't know you but you sound like good people with good hearts.


----------



## dobo

Look, it is never too late to change. Your kids will benefit so much from this even if your marriage doesn't survive (which I hope it does). When a parent demonstrates the ability to take stock and make difficult changes, it shows that you practice what you preach. 

Maybe you were angry because despite doing what you thought was right in terms of taking care of and providing for your family, in the bottom of your heart you still felt unfulfilled and unappreciated and unknown to the most important people in your life. I don't know. Maybe there are other sides to you that you haven't exposed or explored that are crying for attention. And maybe you're tired of all of the hard work and none of the alleged rewards. I wish you a lot of luck discovering yourself. This should be pretty empowering stuff even though a lot of it will be difficult.

Also, remember that it takes a long time for someone to believe a change has been made and to get over the hurt and resentment. So do what you do for yourself more than your wife/marriage. Be better because it makes you feel better. She might not come around for a while so you need to do it for yourself first and foremost. That she'll benefit is a bonus.


----------



## elscotto

Dobo wrote "Look, it is never too late to change. Your kids will benefit so much from this even if your marriage doesn't survive (which I hope it does). When a parent demonstrates the ability to take stock and make difficult changes, it shows that you practice what you preach.

Maybe you were angry because despite doing what you thought was right in terms of taking care of and providing for your family, in the bottom of your heart you still felt unfulfilled and unappreciated and unknown to the most important people in your life. I don't know. Maybe there are other sides to you that you haven't exposed or explored that are crying for attention. And maybe you're tired of all of the hard work and none of the alleged rewards. I wish you a lot of luck discovering yourself. This should be pretty empowering stuff even though a lot of it will be difficult.

Also, remember that it takes a long time for someone to believe a change has been made and to get over the hurt and resentment. So do what you do for yourself more than your wife/marriage. Be better because it makes you feel better. She might not come around for a while so you need to do it for yourself first and foremost. That she'll benefit is a bonus."


I went to the counselor and you might as well have been sitting there Dobo either that or you are some training in therapy. My counselor's opinion after 3-4 hours of meeting with me so far was eye opening.

The net of it was this (as though she were talking to me) "You are in a super high intensity highly motivated person who from what I can tell does everything at 120 mph. You tend to own a room when you walk into it --not in a bad way-- but because you are charismatic, outgoing, and make friends easily. (I am in sales btw) You work very very hard and are a good parent and have worked very hard for 20 years of being together to put in place what you thought was best for the family but what happens is people like you are so intense most times that when you pursue goals and focus you fail to nurture yourself along the way--effectively you abuse your emotional, mental, and spiritual health. The only way you can do that is to have someone else "prop" you up and be there for you at a surrogate level but no matter how capable those people are--and it sounds like your wife is among the best--BUT no matter how good someone is they are never perfect. So you are working 3 jobs/starting businesses/ etc... and you feel like she should be there for you at all times and anytime she isn't you feel like you were let down. 

Sometimes this causes anger and resentment sometimes it doesn't but over time the sheer cumulative effect of when she has been unable to meet your needs emotionally, sexually, etc... during times of high stress and when you need it most makes you think you are unloved so you lash out to punish her in different ways. You have a huge conflict because you love her a lot but you want to punish her to get her attention. Supporting Type B relaxed people in emotionally all the time is tough enough but its impossible for anyone to have walked her shoes forever.

That said what next. Counselor says you need to start taking care of yourself mentally and spiritually. Feel free to gift yourself the tings you have denied yourself over the years because you have felt guilty--maybe thats time away from work made you feel guilty because you felt like the familiy could use the money for college etc..Maybe that's just going out and buying a gas grill that you said you were going to buy for 10 years but never have because there was always something less frivolous or productive.

To Dobo's point I am marching forward being me and a good me. A good Dad and maybe a good husband if this works out or a future good husband if it doesn't. I am a lot better mental place at the moment not having to be as angry with her over this situation.

My $.02

Thanks all


----------



## dobo

I like that she mentions spirituality in addition to emotionally/mentally. I like her already!


----------



## knortoh

wow you sound like you've made a lot of progress quickly - or maybe a moment of 'awakening' 
GOOD LUCK!


----------



## elscotto

Oh just another thing the counselor said that resonated with me and helped me deal with things in a positive manner. She said I want you to think about your situation and put one of your sons in this situation as an adult and think about what you would tell your son in terms of advice. Then you need to follow your advice and just as you would tell your own son that the last thing he should do is beat himself up and that he should just focus on being the best person possible you need to do the same.

Not bad advice in my opinion.

thanks again all and if anyone wants to please PM me if there is any way I can help you all or just post to my thread.

S


----------



## elscotto

I caught her chaeting last night. Not totally having sex but in an embrace with another guy. He is a family friend, has 2 small kids and his life is very intertwined with ours. This is going to suck. 

They have no remorese and want out and me and the other lady are like WTF. They cheated on us while on vacation on a trip we both paid for while working. Nice. Morally bankrupt yep--my fault nope and there is a more than even chanc eI will be divorced within 2 weeks. Who knew.

Later all. It sucks but at least I know. I tailed her with a borrowed car and then busted her.

Thanks
Scott


----------



## dobo

So you and the other wife sent them on vacation alone? What were the two of you thinking????

In any case, did they admit that they've cheated? Damn.

I'm really sorry. You must be in complete shock. OTOH, at least you know what you're doing now.


----------



## jsniceguy

Really sorry to hear the news - rough to get originally I am sure but finally gives you an understanding as to what was and is going on. The portion where he is intertwined in your lives - makes it difficult - with it close to the family ensure to think all of your actions through before going ahead. Best of luck....


----------



## knortoh

I am so sorry - that must hurt lots - it's one thing to suspect it and another to know it -
remember in a crisis 'do nothing'...
try and take a deep breath


----------



## elscotto

ummm yeah it hurts but there are rays of sunshine that are peeking through the clouds at times. I am ready to move my brain on. I just helped her pack up--actually did most of the work carry the bed and everything. I am ready for her to go and make a clean break. 

I would prefer to know it because at this point it stopped the ongoing deception, cheating, lying, sneaking around. That was worse.

The affair started this summer on the vacation--his wife confirmed that he has been a real bastard to her since he got back much like my wife has been nasty to me. 

At the end of it all doesn't really matter. The thing that matters is are we going to reconcile and the answer is no and if she wanted to would I and the answer is probably no and so now it comes to dissolution of assets and moving forward.

We just spent a couple of hours going over what she wanted and what I wanted to take away and I think came to an amicable solution. I am going to document what we agreed to and write it all down and get her sign off and hand it to an attorney tomorrow. He'll write it all up and we will file for divorce on Wednesday next week.

There are times to cut your losses and move along and I can't think of a better time than this. I have lived the last 5 weeks in hell and sleep is frequently 3 hours a night and I need to pay attention to what's important especially the kids, my health, my mental happiness and live life to the fullest.

That's all for now and thanks once again for all the support.

Scott


----------



## knortoh

I know that you are hurting.

I admire your clarity.

It is cold comfort perhaps - but for you things ARE clear -

For your W. she will never know.

She lied and was horrible to you.

You have been honest with and about yourself.

This means that ultimately you WILL move on and you are taking the best parts of yourself wherever you may go.

all the best.


----------



## dobo

I think you're going to be fine. You're a strong guy and she has a lot to answer for... especially because this relationship with the other guy probably won't last. They've had all of the "fun" and "excitement" and that will get stale. Then they'll have to look at what they've done to their families and it isn't pretty.

You're doing good things with yourself and I'm very impressed. Keep up the good work!!


----------



## elscotto

Okay so we are telling the kids we are getting a divorce. My wife has leased a house and moved out earlier this week. 

I told my wife she has to craft and deliver the message but I am not sure the message she wants to deliver is the best. She wants to tell the kids that we loved each other a long time ago and for a long while but that we have grown older and grown into different people and that she no longer loves their father (me).

Now I am not sure but I think that might put her in a bad place in terms of taking on future resentment and blame from my children.?? Thoughts on this. The first part is okay but telling kids you don't love their father anymore seems to be an indirect attack on them assuming they love their father which I think they do.

My kids are 9, 12, and 14 and all boys. She has been a really god mom to them and has a pretty close relationship with them.

She told me today that we could figure out the custodial arrangements of how and when they spent time at my house (their familial home since I am staying) and "based on hose they react to us telling them of the divorce tomorrow." BTW they are CLUELESS just as I was about this.

You all are pretty smart do you have any thoughts or should I put down my crackpipe already?

Thanks
Scott


----------



## sisters359

I just got to this and I want to go back to something you said before: You work(ed?) 80 hour weeks. You feel you "took care of" your wife. It's as though she made no contribution to your marriage in terms of $$$, although apparently you were able to work 80 hours/week despite having 3 kids--births, infants, toddlers, pre-schoolers, etc. 

Please think about the message this type of approach might have sent to your wife, and how the simple fact that YOU WEREN'T THERE might have contributed to the breakdown of your marriage. 

I'm not trying to slam you, so please try to take my suggestions seriously. Again and again I see people (usually, but not always, men) who give $$$$ but not their time, not themselves, to the marriage. It may be too late--or maybe not. But happiness in relationships comes from valuing one another and valuing the time you have together, not from "taking care of" another. Wives and husbands are adults and they do not need to be "taken care of," and they know it! 

If I could give any advice to young people starting out, it would be, put time ahead of money. Be financially responsible--keep out of debt, save for emergencies, college, and retirement, then live simply so you don't get caught up always chasing after the next big purchase. 

OP, you sound like you are capable of great personal growth, so maybe you can either accept that you LOVE what you do as much or more than your wife (that's ok) and she's just responding to that implied message, or, you can accept that you got caught up in something that hasn't worked out like you expected. If you truly loved your work, and don't really regret the time invested there, then accept that the "hidden cost" may be losing your wife. Just don't make the same mistake with your kids. Nothing--and I mean nothing--replaces time spent with the kids. If you are too busy to be at their games, school conferences, plays, etc., etc., too busy to just hang out for most of EVERY Sat. and Sunday, then you are too busy. Redirect yourself now--you can go back to 80 hour weeks and the work you love when they head off to college. Believe me, then you'll need and want to be so busy b/c you'll miss 'em like crazy if you have made them an integral part of every single day. Best of luck.


----------



## elscotto

Sisters, thanks for the note back. We are already well beyond that and yes i worked a lot of hours in the past but don't quite these days. I had a very high paying job that I quit in 2005 to start and open a business with my wife. It did okay but it was clear in order for us to grow that company to where we wanted the business would require another better location a couple of hours from where we lived. I rented an apartment in that (nasty college apartment  town so I didn't have to drive a 4-5 hour commute daily but made all kids sports always.

When it looked like the economy was headed to the toilet in late 2007 I started looking for a job again to work for family security, insurance, etc... so we could see if and when the second store would take off and grow or we would be wrong. I have been in that corporate job since 2-08 on top of the two businesses but I have always made all my kids sports and most times quit work early to take them to batting cages etc... before their games to warm them up. With three you both have to be available.

There is plenty of blame to go around and I am weary. Pointing fingers yields almost immediate but fleeting satisfaction at this point for me. I have mentally moved on. We sat down between the two of us and crafted a pretty thorough agreement on the dissolution of assets and I handed it to the attorney 2 days ago and met with him yesterday to answer follow up questions.

He thinks he can have it completed by Monday or so. In Illinois that means we can be divorced on Wednesday--formally/technically/legally etc...

I am ready to move along and am tired of pushing water up a hill with a rake.

Thanks tho for the comments sister and I apologize if the tone was to imply she is at fault because while she is she is not the sole person at fault.

Anger and resentment within me will be like an acid that burns and will eat me alive from the inside out and life's too short.

Take Care,
Scott


----------



## dobo

I thought you needed to be separated for a certain amount of time in IL.


----------



## elscotto

Dobo, not according to the attorney. He said if we can agree to the disposition of assets then he can draw up an agreement and get us on the divorce court docket with the divorce papers signed and file them so that in 5 days we will be divorced--said there is no waiting period. Nothing.

If there are kids involved you have to go through Children First for parenting classes I presume to enlighten everyone or try to so we don't all act like idiots.


----------



## dobo

Really? OK. Maybe it was because my friend has kids that it took them so long... 

Anyway, I hope this goes smoothly for you. 

Wow. Talk about night and day, huh? One second you're married and the next week, you're not. 

What are you going to do next? Disneyworld? ;-)


----------



## elscotto

Yep. You have to go to a parenting class called Child First if you have kids but thats it.

All out mutual friends are pushing for a cooling off period. I don't know if that's a good idea. She is already furnishing the house she leased. She has a 3000 foot house that she is trying in a hurry to bring up to standards :-( and she isn't cheap. I told her I didn't care how far we are down the path at this point I don't care. I figure its been a $20k exercise over the last month between attorneys and lease obligations etc....Whatever life is short.

Dobo, do you have professional training or are you just kinda a smart person on this stuff?

I am going to Vegas for Halloween for a friends birthday instead on Disneyworld.

Thanks
Scott


----------



## dobo

I'm a computer geek, ex-chemist so all of this stuff is just a hobby? Something like that. I think I missed my calling. My younger daughter (8) is the most emotionally astute person I ever met so I will encourage her into a field in which she can use it. 

Your wife seems pretty well set. At some point, why bother turning back? How would you forgive her for this "whim" if it is one, anyway? That's not a very mature, kind or loving thing to do so if this is her path, let her go down it alone. 

Enjoy Vegas. Behave yourself! I don't want to get a call in the middle of the night having to bail you out! ;-)


----------



## elscotto

Dobo, I spoke with my attorney yesterday and wanted to update you wrt the separation requirement in Illinois. you are correct that IL requires a "separation" but that is easily skirted in that it is not a requirement to be "physically or literally" separated only to be separated in "spirit." I am hoping nothing gets ugly with this whole thing but my attorney is the best in the area. He said he is 95% sure we can keep it from going to court because even though IL is a community property no fault state the attorney says he will subpoena my wife and the boyfriend and put them on the stand in proceedings if she doesn't sign the agreement we've arrived at between us--I have a feeling she will take it but once she talks to an attorney it will be uglier and more issues raised. I cannot believe a woman with an IQ I would estimate to be 140+ has not talked to one yet, that she got up and moved out of the house, and that she leased a home and has started furnishing it. My attorney says she really really made a bad decision there. 

I am a computer geek as well and went to work in the telecom/IT space selling the equipment that is the internet in terms of routing traffic. It is something I am kinda proud of when my sons say something about doing Internet research in their computer labs and stuff and I tell them I built the state education network to the schools and connected them to the internet.

Take care all.


----------



## elscotto

Okey dokey all. So as a quick update on this I got a divorce degree entered on Friday at 1:00 pm central and became a new divorcee throwing my hat in the ring with the other 48% of marriages out there right now.

I guess time will tell whether it was the right move, too soon, etc... but this I do know. She does not want to be married to me at this point in her life and I am not willing to take a daily twisting of the knife as she continued texting her romantic interest so I needed to make a decision on that note and once I did it became a surgical execution of a business decision.

She walked with no maintenance, no child support, primary residence with me for the purposes of determining school districts, half of the liquid assets and 33% of the business assets, 20% of the furnishings in the house, and a cut in household income of 70% in that she will have 25%-30% of the normal amount she is used to.

As my attorney said get it done because if you don't she will wake up some day and take you to the cleaners for a lot and fritter it away on the boyfriend or whatever.... so protect at least your boys from a crazy mom at the moment.

Anyone in IL needs some non legal divorce help pm me. That was the best 5k I have ever spent to retain my guy. She chose not to retain an attorney but did have a consultation.


----------



## dobo

I kind of felt the way you do about the surgical execution of a business decision. I said, "gotta stop the bleeding first, deal with everything else, second." 

I also agree about the lawyer. Lawyers and doctors are two places I will never get "cheap" on. Lawyer jokes may be funny, but when you need one, always get the best one you can afford. You won't regret it.


----------



## sirch

Hey Elscotto, read my signature and grin!


----------



## knortoh

dobo said:


> I kind of felt the way you do about the surgical execution of a business decision. I said, "gotta stop the bleeding first, deal with everything else, second."
> 
> I also agree about the lawyer. Lawyers and doctors are two places I will never get "cheap" on. Lawyer jokes may be funny, but when you need one, always get the best one you can afford. You won't regret it.


I need to heed this advice it is excellent - the medical analogy REALLY works for me - it is taking me so long to get tough - but it is business isn't it?


----------



## sirch

You have treat your divorce like a busines decision! Put it this way, in effect you are suing your stbx. You have to check the emotions at the door and fight for what you want. Shoot for the moon and ask for everything, then hopefully you will end up with half!


----------



## elscotto

okay kids here we are 31 days after the divorce was entered. In IL if a side was not represented by an attorney AND the settlement favored the other side you can easily get waht's called a motion to vacate. What that means is you can go to the judge and tell them you want a "do-over" within 30 calendar days. I didn't want or need that.

Now reality hits because I have been forced to be mr. nice guy so that she wouldn't get all wigged out and run to an attorney wanting more from me after the fact. Most of the town I am in seems to know about what's happened. There have been several that have reached out to me on the side and said they fully support me and I have asked them to please do not make anything public or to confront her or anythiing--at least until 31 days so after that its their deal if they want to.

I have a feeling its going to be a very ugly holiday season but I do know this--i did not go around and disparage her and whats she has done and her coices to become involved with a married man and cause their divorce too with 5 kids involved is just that--their own choice.

BTW I went to Key West for Fantasy Fest with a woman friend of mine to help me heal and did it ever help me heal!


Thanks
Scott


----------



## knortoh

Wow what a story you have had ! Complete with healing fantasy fest (whatever that is) ???? (I can kind of imagine!) So glad there has been something pleasant along with all the crap you've dealt with ..............thanks for updating


----------



## elscotto

hey Knortoh--how have YOU been? Are you doing okay? I have read your story and they are all the same textbook type layout.

private message me if you ever want to vent or talk. Hope you are well.

Thanks
Scott


----------

