# Commentary for women here from a guy regarding infidelity



## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

I am in a 7 year marriage with one kid and another soon and we have dealt with some infidelity issues (me) and I was reading threads here for insight. 

BUT it seems to me on this American site that a LOT of women are a little impractical and idealistic on these matters. Seems the advice is heavily divorce, don't trust, punish, etc even if the husband is mostly good. First off, keep in mind all affairs are not the same. Everyone is different, but generally speaking, men suffer more from lack of sex. Also, most men can separate sex from emotional matters very easily. If they are being otherwise attentive, not having an emotional affair, and not looking to devote effort to others outside of physical needs being met it is NOT necessarily the end of the world. 

I will use myself as an example. I support my family fully (wife is stay at home mom with our one kid and expected kid). I work long hours, rebuild our home, do all our repair work (never hire anyone), do all our paperwork and bill paying, do much of the house cleaning (bathrooms, dishes, .... wife cooks mostly by pref), play hours every day with my son, stay up late to do more work .... Plus I care about my wife and son. BUT I do not do well with lack of sex. Since marriage, my wife rapidly lost interest in me in spite of the best of my efforts. She equates sex with precursors like an hour long massage, the right setting, and things like that which become hard to do with a young kid etc. I swear I do my best to please her (oral sex as much as she wants and the last reciprocal session focused on me was when married ... I kid you not blowjobs ended coincident with the ceremony and were frequent before) and she seems to enjoy things (I do not like faking) when they very infrequently happen. But she needs everything setup right. Yes, I told her several times I find all this problematic and asked for counseling. That got ignored but my first requests were not so forcefully stated since I want a willing partner and was trying to be very sensitive to whatever issue there is/was. Later, I was more emphatic and said I could not live like this and said we needed to change or divorce. She said that she did not want to split over it but was just not interested often physically. She has no health issues. By not interested, I mean for example, no sex for all pregnancy, plus more than one full year after. Then another interval (god knows why) of about one year before becoming pregnant after about 2 years of marriage. Now I am now on a 3rd 7 month streak of no sex due to her 2nd pregnancy which will continue a year or two given past patterns. Add to that numerous multi-month breaks of sex with no reason given and no attention paid to me (even in a non-physical sense). To make this all the more odd, I more or less met her on a sexual pick-up (can say this since it is anonymous here! ... but I NEVER remind her of this) while traveling and things were fine sexually right up to formal marriage. She never would say anything is wrong, wants no counseling, and has only given a slight clue to say one time she could become easily bored and never had a long boyfriend (never heard one word about other relationships though). 

Obviously, we have communications issues. But as you might imagine, I could no longer take this and found another outlet for sanity sake while being careful with health (realize this is not fully possible). I am shocked we have a another kid due with this rate of sex but I guess we are obviously not infertile. She is a great mother to our son, and I think I do well taking care of things in our family (she does not multi-task well so I take care of much to free her up). I do not get much attention by any measure beyond sex though. 

So, I eventually got caught with an affair which was purely sexual and I am now in big trouble for more or less damaging her security and sense of calm. I am labeled as being self-centered, a sex addict, etc now. I see similar thread here with guys getting in trouble for diversions. My advice to women here. Realize that men and women are not the same in sex. If you want to torture your man by lack of sex, realize it will eventually break most guys and they are wired by nature to look around. But if he strays in such a situation it does NOT necessarily mean he is looking to replace you, but rather could be trying to survive more or less. As an extensive traveler, my sense is women in many other parts of the world are more realistic on these matters. We in America seem to regard the genders as the same. That is likely not reality in most cases. Life is not a fairy tale from a to z. You have to balance the good with the bad and take proportional blame if you contribute to an untenable situation for your spouse. 

Now I am sure I will be blasted endlessly for my transgression ...

---------------------------------
Appended in partial response to the large number of replies. Part of this is below in the commentary. But given the number, maybe it is useful to put here for those interested at the expense of making the original post longer. 

First off, I did not mean this to become a commentary on my *own* predicament ... I think I am doomed regardless and I do not think my situation is so typical. My motivation for posting was I was browsing the site for insight on how various women think on infidelity due to my problem. I realize everyone has their own unique situation. BUT I saw more than a few comments which would read roughly, "my marriage was great and meeting all my needs, we have family, etc but I was not so into sex for a while and the bastard cheated (confessed or caught) and now I want to divorce and all is doom." The point I was wanting to make is that many men do not interpret straying the same and you should not necessarily blow things up if things are not otherwise that bad and it was a limited physical diversion. Every situation is, of course, also different. 

It also seems many of the replies are much as I expected/feared though some seem surprisingly (thanks) balanced.

Many seem to put outlandish extrapolations on what I wrote based on what they (want?) to believe or simply ignore what I wrote or have a very low reading comprehension. Again, I don't think my situation is so typical, but I will describe a little more here in reply to some of the posts. This part below is edited/extended from a response I included in the thread:

Yes, I am sure the kid is mine due to attributes, timing of rare sex (trust me ... you can remember when sex occurs when it happens very rarely). 

OF COURSE I TRIED TALKING TO HER early in this cycle. Long before she was pregnant with our first son. The issue escalated rapidly after marriage (she had to go on a trip after the ceremony and sex went from a few times a week to every other week then ramped down rapidly from there). I did not change or do things any differently. I do not stink, I pay attention to her, and try to provide for her needs in bed and outside. I asked what I was doing wrong, what she wanted, etc. I got essentially zero response. She did not want to talk to a counselor. When I got more frustrated and said I could not live like this she did not have much reply but would not say much or budge. She did not want a divorce and said clearly she wanted no other guys AND that she was content and happy. I made clear I was horribly stressed by it all to the extent of becoming physically sick. But no budge. You cannot imagine sleepless nights being attracted to your spouse next to you knowing nothing can happen. I do not sleep much normally (and she needs a lot ... this is part of the reason I help so much at home -- I have much more hours to do so. Again, I do not blame her for this ... I am a high energy guy. Our son is also very high energy and this may drain her more). 

Her aversion to sex was exactly coincident with becoming married. I did not change, gain weight and/or get out of shape, shirk helping at home, or act differently and the rapidity of change on her part was dramatic (with no health issues). We were living together before, so it was really just a documentation change. I did not want to get married but she did, and when I finally agreed and she seemed overjoyed by it. I was more scared but I did not make any of that obvious (I think). 

If we had a low sex rate when we were dating, I could understand opinions more on the infidelity aspect etc. But, frankly, I feel like I was manipulated. One should act similarly before and after being hitched not rapidly transition with no explanation. I am not property but a spouse and she did not want to divorce and would not show any continuity of physical interest in me. 

I made clear that if we divorced that I would leave all assets and continue to support her. I don't feel this was malicious on her part, so I do not mind continuing support. Plus now that we have a kid and another coming I am fine with meeting obligations and want to. I am an academic type anyway, so I do not need a lot of money for myself and I always saved well etc. She is not a gold digger type. 

I was raised, as perhaps some men are, to look for solutions rather than whine and complain and I hit my gripe limit. Granted, I should have complained more -- especially early. But she did not want to discuss it and I am not the nagging type. We get along well and do not otherwise argue. So there is a communication issue.

I said I was speaking in terms of general attributes of men and women and sex with men being wired for the need more so. Of course, I understand some women want lots of sex and some guys do not. But generally, it is more the other way and it is easy to see why in nature. When I was dating, my girlfriends always seemed much much more sex centric than I was. I only saw this other side after marriage. In fact, I often wondered why the extreme complaints by some guys. I was in for a very rude awakening. Though I figured things would calm down after marriage, I never thought marriage would mark a priest-like transition ... or I guess from the news media a lot of priests get more action than I do from my wife most years.

On my affair. After she did not want a divorce and would not budge I looked for a solution via an affair since I cannot live long term this way (the stress was getting to me and starting to cause my physical problems). I chose carefully and found a woman not seeking a stable of guys and met only minimally to keep from going nuts from lack of sex. The woman only wanted sex and was a case in point of a woman who was not getting enough. It was not easy to find this either since many guys look and more women looking appear to be looking for a more full (not just physical) replacement. We became friends, but not the least bit romantic. She was even giving me some useful advice on how to try and figure out what was bothering my wife and infant issues. So that was the closest to an emotional transgression in the thing was getting some woman's perspective advice on how to improve things and kid matters at home. 

My wife is pregnant now and will not be interested in me for well over a year from present, more likely two years given trends. She does not appear to want to dump me in spite of catching the affair, though she is mad about it. Quite frankly, I did not try to hide it much since I figured if she wanted to find out she should. That she found out and how indicates she was worried about it ... which does surprise me somewhat. 

To the woman who assert that I must put my wife in a bad light. I did not do so. All I said is the reality that she has next to no interest in me physically coincident with marriage. She is a good mother, we get along fine in other ways, and I pull my share at home as stated. Our son, by the way, is a VERY active kid so she is far from lazy just from keeping up with him most of the hours of the day. It dumbfounds me why some women must always think a guy is doing awful things at home to deserve being sex deprived. There is a spectrum of people/men. If you know a bad one, it does not mean all men share such attributes. Open your eyes and mind. I tend to think most people are not all good or all bad also ... one should not expect fairy tale bliss in life (which is part of my original point). I don't think my wife is purposefully trying to torture me either. She just changed and perhaps is not so good at seeing the impact on me of her lack of physical interest in me.

I have thought of asking for an open marriage, but I doubt that will go over well with my wife since she made clear she was not be interested in other guys. Frankly, I might feel a little odd with it also if she acted on it, since I am the physically rejected one and it would signal at least some sex interest on her part. Though in some respects, I would be curious to find out if something could work since then I could at least have hope of getting her interested in me because I DO try to cater to her desires and I do not press anything on her. (For example, when she stopped giving blowjobs immediately on marriage I never said a word and figured it was just something she did not like and continued long precursor massages and oral sex since she clearly likes both). I am not psychic and I need a clue if something is lacking. I try the best I can. But realistically, as a hard up guy, it is not easy when sex deprived to essentially do long massages on a wife you are attracted to, long foreplay, long oral sex, and then be an intercourse stud when starved by desire. 

I get it fully that a woman will typically be devoted more to her kid(s) when young. I don't have issues with that. In fact, it became a little easier for me to deal with my wife's lack of physical interest in me after she became pregnant with our first son. What flipped me out more was the abrupt transition after marriage a few years before our first son.

Why is it so so common to be trigger happy on divorce over infidelity here? I presume people realize when you have a kid the kid does better with two parents working together and there is a larger obligation to your kid. Sure, I violated part of that with the affair. But it is also an attempt to survive on my part. I am not asexual and I did not in any way put myself in a situation where I would expect such to evolve. I also told her we should get divorced and she should find what she wants and she rejected that and said she wanted to remain married. Probably I should have said do your end or leave. But I also do not want a wife having sex just to appease me ... I want it to be mutual desire. If there is no desire, is it really that awful to find an outlet?


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Is your wife on this board?

Is it possible the baby is not yours?


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Incoming...tick, tick, tick


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Oddly I agree with the Blowjob comment.

I understand what your saying, but I think you need counseling with the wife to clear the air. 

I agree you sometimes can't set up 2 hours of pre sex events. 

But Adultery is just never a answer or excuse. plain and simple. 

You can try to make points until the cows come home. 

But Adultery is never, never, never the answer. 

I would rather jerk off and have my wife catch me and say what am I doing and then me tell her you weren't talking care of it so I might as well. 

Or just tell her, honey I am going to call this girl and go fvck her because you won't. Is that cool with you. 

When she gets upset, you need to be straight faced. What ??? I've asked you for sex and you blew me off. Its okay if you don't like it. But I want some and I really, really want to do it with you. But it seems your not into it with me, so this girl is.


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

not_bubba said:


> Realize that men and women are not the same in sex. If you want to torture your man by lack of sex, realize it will eventually break most guys and they are wired by nature to look around.


You assume women can't have a desire equal to a man? 

Sounds like you have given yourself a ticket to be a married bachelor.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I've known for a very long time that there is a difference between men and women.

So, you need the diversion as you call it. Fair enough from your perspective.

From a woman's perspective, which you rightly point out is different, this is intolerable.

So, end of story for me. You want to do it. Many women won't tolerate it, not just in America. (I've traveled, too. Infidelity hurts in lots and lots of cultures.)

You have your male thing, we have our women thing.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I've known for a very long time that there is a difference between men and women.


Really? Do tell. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

old timer said:


> Really? Do tell.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pandora's Box, OT, Pandora's Box.


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I've known for a very long time that there is a difference between men and women.
> 
> So, you need the diversion as you call it. Fair enough from your perspective.
> 
> ...


But what do you suggest he do if she is in fact simply not interested in sex...BUT they both want to stay together for other reasons.....

In my opinion he should absolutely have talked it out with her to the max.....then they should have either...
(1) compromised on the sex frequency
(2) agreed to divorce
(3) agreed to an open marriage

Its not right for her to be able to control his sex life 100%...Im sure most agree....

But the answer is not going to be lying and cheating....its got to be in honestly and care for each other.

To me though, if SHE was in fact the actual reason for this sexless marriage that he describes..and she refuses to talk about it..then SHE is also cheating.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> BUT I do not do well with lack of sex.


Oh my God! You poor soul!  Don't they have auto-eroticism where you come from?:scratchhead:

Sometimes we can't get as much sex as we'd like, or any at all. Gentlemen cope. Not cheat.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Some of us rationalize cheating as coping. 

Just sayin...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

Well cheating is a form of coping to him according to his post.

Its his opinion that its ok and its a reality of life.

Clearly it IS a reality of life....

Personally I think she is to blame as much as he is to blame.

A partner should know that depriving the other of intimacy is going to have consequences one way or another.

I think its not best FOR HIM though....as it does not resolve anything.

If she is really the way he describes though, she should agree to an open marriage or expect him to leave her (or cheat if he cant deal with the honesty).

Ugh


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

fetishwife said:


> Well cheating is a form of coping to him according to his post.
> 
> Its his opinion that its ok and its a reality of life.
> 
> ...


I think she is definitely to blame for her part. Cheating and lying isn't the answer, though. They either talk and try to work it out or they split up so he can find a woman who won't deprive him of sex.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

> men suffer more from lack of sex.


Do tell, oh wise one!



> BUT I do not do well with lack of sex.


Funny, neither do I! How many married people do you know of who ARE able to do well without sex? Especially so early on? :scratchhead:



> Realize that men and women are not the same in sex.


Oh, I DO realize this! I want much more sex than my husband does!

What I got from your OP? A man who is trying as hard as he can to RATIONALIZE his affair. Like all WS, I suspect you have painted her in the worst possible light to gain sympathy for your plight. Yes, I agree, NO ONE should withhold sex from her, OR HIS, spouse. But no matter how much it is withheld, it doesn't give you license to cheat. If this was THAT bad for you, you owed it to her to tell her how you were feeling, what you had been contemplating, and see if you could figure things out between you. Instead, you chose to stick your d!ck in some other woman, potentially exposing our wife to STDs, and even potentially exposing YOUR UNBORN CHILD to STDs! So, yes, I do find your actions selfish. And yes, I absolutely believe that you are trying to rationalize your affair, to make yourself feel better. Sorry, you're not going to get sympathy from this WOMAN who is not getting as much sex (read that as I WANT MORE) as SHE wants from HER HUSBAND.


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## NatashaYurino (Jan 2, 2012)

I sort of understand what you are saying, however I still believe that this male double standart is just wrong. Firts, infidelity hurts period. We women don't choose to be hurt, it happens. Don't you men think if we could just choose not be hurt by cheating, we would? It'd be much easier.

Second women can separate sex from love too and you men know it, for several reasons, no matter how much you guys deny it. I'll list a few things that proof women can separate sex from love just like men:

1.In human history which gender used sex as a weapon and currency more than the other? Females, and men always talk about this, that we use sex to get what we want. So you men know that we women can see the HUGE difference between going to bed with someone for love or for any other reason.

2.When you men cheat you know that many times the mistress also is there just for the lust and sex, so you guys can realise that if these mistresses can separate sex from love so can your wives and gfs.

3.Women in open relationships are the living proof that they can have sex with other men and NOT give their hearts away to them. Just like their partners they have sex and then go home.

4. Sex workers such as prostitutes and porn actresses are also living proof that women can have sex and leave their hearts out of the equation.

Then I ask you guys, why is it that many men believe it's only their infidelities that don't have to mean the end of the world?

By what you described I can see why you became tempted but to say that male infidelity is not as bad as female infidelity is just something I will never really accept.

Only the person who feels tha pain can have enough authority to say whether it's real or not. If my heart is shattered for being cheating on there's not amount of male rationatilization that will change that.

In my opinion it would be the same thing if a woman turned to her partner and said: 

"Honey you know I love you right? You know you're the love of my life, but...you are stinking poor..." 

"So here's my plan, I'll marry this rich man I met at work so I can have the money and life style I want, but don't worry I'll keep you on the side as my lover." 

"Win, win for everybody right?!" 

"I mean you get the woman you want and I get the man I want plus the money I desire. And deep down you know I am only with the other man for money, so you know for a fact that when I sleep with him is only to keep him around and when I sleep with you is for love."

My point is, would you men accept that in order for the woman you love to have it all that your heart would have to be forever shattered in the process???

That's how I feel about the idea of a man trying to convience me that as long as he does not run away with any of the other women he sleeps with all is fine and well. My heart is the one feeling the pain and if I say it hurts like he**, then it hurts like he**, nothing that he says, and that makes sense in his head, will change that, ever.

Understanding that men can sleep with a thousand women but only give their hearts to one, is not the same as accepting it. You men say you want us women to understand that men can separate sex from love when in reality what you really want is for us to accept. 

Just as deep down you all know that women can separate sex from love too, but you still reserve yourselves the right not to accept it.

You guys who think like that need to understand that we women feel the same way as you do and also reserve oursleves the same right.

BTW I am not saying this in anger or anything like that, I am only giving my two cents.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

Original poster here again. 

Seems many of the replies are much as I expected/feared though some seem surprisingly (thanks) balanced. 

But some additional info:

1/ Yes, I am sure the kid is mine due to obvious attributes, timing of rare sex (trust me ... you can remember when sex occurs better if it happens very rarely). She stated clearly that she was not interested in other guys when I tried to discuss my abandonment. 

2/ The avoidance of sex was exactly coincident with becoming married. I did not change, gain weight and/or get out of shape, shirk helping at home, or act differently and the rapidity of change on her part was dramatic (with no health issues). We were living together before, so it was really just a documentation change. If it was this way when we were dating, I could understand opinions more on the infidelity aspect etc. But, frankly, I feel like I was manipulated in this aspect at least. One should act similarly before and after being hitched. 

3/ I said I talked to her about it a few times, got nowhere. I asked if she wanted to divorce and she did not. I made clear that I would leave all assets and continue to support her (I want to support my kids, and since I don't feel this was malicious on her part I do not mind continuing to support her too). I am more an academic type, so I do not need a lot of money for myself and I always saved well etc. She is not the type to do things she does not want, and I am not so pushy in spite of being painfully frustrated. Realize also men (at least how I was raised) tend to be trained to look for solutions rather than whine and complain and I hit my gripe limit. We get along well and do not otherwise argue. I am not the type that will bring things up over and over. She will not discuss things and would not go to counselor (afraid it would end up just me griping anyway and her getting embarrassed over it) ... so there is a communication issue. 

4/ I said I was speaking in terms of general attributes of men and women and sex with men being wired for the need more so. Of course, I understand some women want lots of sex and some guys do not. But generally, it is more the other way and it is easy to see why in nature. When I was dating, my girlfriends always seemed much much more sex centric than I was. I only saw this other side after marriage. In fact, I often wondered why the extreme complaints by some guys. I was in for a very rude awakening. Though I figured things would calm down after marriage, I never thought marriage would be a priest-like transition ... or I guess from the news media a lot of priests get more action than I do from my wife most years. 

5/ On finding an outlet. I am not an idiot. Of course I chose carefully and found someone not seeking a stable of guys and met only minimally to keep from going nuts from lack of sex. The woman only wanted sex and was a case in point of a woman who was not getting enough. We became friends, but not the least bit romantic. It was physical only ... at least from my perspective. My wife is pregnant now and will not be interested in me for well over a year from present (assuming she does not dump me ... which I suspect will be the case) so the exposure of the unborn child to all sorts of things is not relevant. 

6/ To the woman who assumes I put my wife in a bad light. I did not do so. All I said is the reality that she has next to no interest in me physically coincident with marriage. She is a good mother, we get along fine in other ways, and I pull my share as stated. Our son, by the way, is a VERY active kid so she is far from lazy just from keeping up with him most of the hours of the day. It dumbfounds me why some women must always think a guy is doing awful things at home to deserve being sex deprived. There is a spectrum of people/men. If you know a bad one, it does not mean all men share such attributes. Open your eyes and mind. I tend to think most people are not all good or all bad also ... one should not expect fairy tale bliss in life. I don't think my wife is purposefully trying to torture me either. She just changed and perhaps is not so good at seeing the impact on me of her lack of physical interest in me. 

7/ I have thought of asking for an open marriage, but I doubt that will go over well since she made clear she was not be interested in other guys. Frankly, I might feel a little odd with it also if she acted on it, since I am the physically rejected one and it would signal at least some sex interest on her part. But I think I could live with it from a fairness perspective. I just do not want to live like a monk.

8/ I get it fully that a woman will typically be devoted more to her kid(s) when young. I don't have issues with that. In fact, it became a little easier for me to deal with my wife's lack of physical interest in me after being pregnant with our first son. What flipped me out more was the abrupt transition after marriage a few years before our first son. 

9/ Of course, I asked why she was not interested, what she wanted me to do, etc. It did not work. She did not want to discuss it other than the one obtuse comment on variety and never being in a long relationship before. She also said that she feels no need for sex and is happy. As I stated, I try the best I can whenever it happens and she appears to be having fun without faking. I focus on what she likes also and there is not much reciprocal attention on me. I would be mostly ok with that though if the frequency of sex were not so so low. 

I did not mean this to become a commentary on my own predicament ... I think I am doomed regardless. My motivation for posting was the extreme comments from so many women I was seeing when interpreting male infidelity broadly. You in fact see a significant amount of that in the replies to my post. My advice is simply to realize that many men do not interpret straying the same and you should not necessarily blow things up if things are not otherwise that bad and it was a limited physical diversion. Every situation is, of course, also different.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

It seems that you have done very little in trying to find out why your wife changed and you're focused on your LACK of sex instead of her LACK of interest in sex with you. In fact, your post is all about _your_ "needs". Did it occur to you that YOU might not be meeting HER needs? And if not, hence the lack of interst in meeting YOURS...

Did it ever occur to you that she may not be interested in having sex with someone who comes across as arrogant? Or who puts SO MUCH WEIGHT on it that it seems that there is little room for much else? I get the impression from you that you would be quite content if she just gave you blowjobs, kneeling in front of you while you were brushing your teeth! 

You're putting so much blame on HER, yet you don't want to see what YOU might be doing to contribute to HER lack of interest. You've even written that SHE doesn't want a divorce as if because she doesn't want one, YOU can't get one. And that is so unfair. 

If you blame her for this much, I can only imagine what else you blame her for. 

You've mentioned that you have 'problems' communicating. Once again, do ya think that just MIGHT be part of _your_ problem? Could it be that she may have lost interest because of HOW you communicate to her, or that you DON'T communicate to her? 

Before you start attacking your wife, fix your own issues FIRST. That means setting your ego aside. Instead of thinking of yourself as a "great lover", ask yourself "AM I a great lover? Would my WIFE think I was a great lover?" And be prepared to hear the TRUTH. 

I'm willling to bet that you'd be quite surprised...

Vega


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

not_bubba,
Your OP is condescending in that is assumes that all, or most, women are like your wife and withhold sex from their husband. You also seem to make the assumption that the reason men cheat is because their wives withhold sex.
Your wife alone is responsible for her cold treatment of you. Personally I consider what she has done to be a form of very serious emotional abuse. I also consider adultery a form of serious emotional abuse.

Many men get as much sex at home but still cheat. Many women have libidos that match that of their husbands. 

Women, who are not your wife, do not need you to come here and talk down to us. You have no idea what are lives are like, our husbands are like, our sex life, etc. And yet you have some ill need to teach us some lesson that in your mind excuses your infidelity.

Keep in mind that women cheat almost as often as men do. And once a betrayed spouse finds out about their spouses’ adultery, they are twice as likely to have a revenge affair. So while you are thumping your chest about how men need to cheat because all woman are like your wife, you better keep a close eye on her because she is very likely to have an affair of her own… if she is not already having one.

The fact that your wife does not like to have sex with you does not mean that she does not like sex. It means that she is not very into you. Something happened right after you married her that turned her off to you and she had not gotten over it.

We are not your wife. You are the one who picked her. You are the one who decided to stay with her even after she turned unisexual right after you married her. You stayed with her despite knowing that she was not a very sexual person. So you have yourself to blame. None of us here are responsible for this.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Ask for an open marriage!
Maybe shes just not that into you!!
Maybe she's got a lover and is just with you for the stability.
However you dress it up, you're cheating, and it's wrong and you know it is because you wouldn't be here looking for validation otherwise!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

OP, maybe she has a problem -that is nothing to do with you- which, if you heard her tell you about it, would make you say: "Oh, my god! No wonder she doesn't want sex!"

You two need to talk. Seriously talk, perhaps with a counsellor.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I've known for a very long time that there is a difference between men and women.
> 
> So, you need the diversion as you call it. Fair enough from your perspective.
> 
> ...


Here is the thing: I've seen many threads where women bemoan the lack of intimacy in the bedroom. Occasionally, they admit that prior to that, they weren't exactly...enthusiastic in the sack.

But I have read many MANY threads about men saying the same things. For years! So kudos to you for getting it. Your sisters do not seem to, or they don't care.

Why should they? They got their husband. They got the paycheck. And if he gets physically desperate enough to fail morally, or he finally decides that he can't take it anymore, she gets the kids, the house, child support and half his bank.

All this is a unilateral decision. I'm sure she can point to X, Y, and Z on how HE failed...but the point remains she is making a unilateral decision to sabatoge a marriage.

So do you wonder why men get worked up about this?

Edited to add: I see you see she has a share of the blame.

I am troubled that when this happens, there is a sudden flurry of fingerpointing at the man, blaming him for HIS failures of...whatever.

I would like women to occasionally woman up and say to the girls who try this crap (and I know they aren't ALL women) to get the stick out of their butt and fulfill the contract.

The contract reads monogamy, not monastacism. And if she insists on a monopoly, she certainly better be willing to provide services...for both spouses.

Otherwise it strikes me as horribly unfair.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

You dont get laid being the maid.

You should have sought out help, such as this website, before you selfishly indulged in your cake eating.
Confess if you havent done so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> You dont get laid being the maid.
> 
> You should have sought out help, such as this website, before you selfishly indulged in your cake eating.
> Confess if you havent done so.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's been caught.

Now he gets the divorce he should have gotten before, but now he's labelled himself as a cheater. So he's in a worse position.

I am reminded of this quote I heard, which I can never get attribution:

"When I want to know what is right or wrong, I go to poor people. Poor people don't have the education to muster the arguments to rationalize doing the wrong things."


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

JCD said:


> Here is the thing: I've seen many threads where women bemoan the lack of intimacy in the bedroom. Occasionally, they admit that prior to that, they weren't exactly...enthusiastic in the sack.
> 
> But I have read many MANY threads about men saying the same things. For years! So kudos to you for getting it. Your sisters do not seem to, or they don't care.
> 
> ...


I was obviously not clear in what I wrote.

Here is my reaction:

A woman who marries and then denies her H sex should not have married. A man who responds by cheating is compounding the hurt and problems. They should get good professional help or split and find more suitable partners.

I also read many threads and am amazed at the sexless marriage issue. I wouldn't ever consider staying in that sort of marriage. To me, there is no point. Life is way too short.

Both genders want things both ways but in different ways. Men are always making it clear to women that for them sex can easily just be sex, i.e., it doesn't mean anything. But...with the one woman they care about they tell them it's the perfect expression of their love and commitment. Women hear this and then when their spouses cheat and say 'Sorry, honey, it was just sex,' how is the woman supposed to believe it wasn't the 'perfect expression of their love and commitment.'?

Are women less tolerant of cheating? From these boards you wouldn't think so, so I doubt it.

If OP has such a miserable sex life with his W, the answer, imo, is not to insist that men are different and need much more sex, therefore he needs to get it somewhere else, stay in the marriage and keep having children. The answer is to understand that a woman will react to his 'solution' by getting upset about the cheating, no matter the cause, and find a different solution, like serious therapy or divorce.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

OP,

Your wife withholding sex was wrong and cruel.

Your cheating was wrong and cruel.

You two have a big mess to sort out.

So what now? 

Does she want a divorce? Do you?

Do either of you want to be married to the other?

Honestly, I can't see why you would. And don't use the lame excuse of having children together.

Divorce, and go find someone who is more compatible. The long-term consequences of staying together look pretty bleak for both of you.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Ahhh...the orgasm.

So f'ng powerful.

OP, it's sometimes easy for us (mostly betrayed spouses) to cast the stone at someone who has cheated for any reason. Mostly because it is never the solution to an issue no matter how much someone rationalizes it.

Your last post, #3 is the big ringer for me. "I asked if she wanted to divorce and she did not". As with sex, it seems you gave her the control. I comment on this because in the middle of my flying career, I could tell it was taking a toll on my family life. I asked my wife if she wanted me to quit. She said no. Why? Because it was a terrific income and comfortable.

It took me 10 years of flying before I quit on the spot after a flight. I was tired. I was over it. I missed my family. My wife, however, was pissed!! I made the decision without her. That lasted a few months until she realized it was the right decision.

You could have simply had her served and taken care of yourself instead of asking her permission to leave. Irreconcilable differences. I might get blasted for saying this, but sex is part of the marriage deal. If you are being denied sexual relations with your spouse, you have every right in the world to leave - after trying to work it out of course.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Ahhh...the orgasm.
> 
> So f'ng powerful.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with you, Dig. It IS a good reason to leave... it is NOT a good reason to cheat. There is NO good reason to cheat. What I cannot fathom is why someone would continue in a marriage when sex drops so significantly RIGHT AFTER that piece of paper is signed. By continuing in the marriage, and NOT changing it (yea, talking did nothing, you take the next step toward resolving it), you set the precedent that it is ok. Why SHOULD she change when you don't MAKE her change. YOU (meaning OP) allowed it to happen. And no matter how you try to paint it, cheating is wrong. Yes, withholding sex is wrong...and really, I am not all convinced that this is what is actually going on because you, OP, are rationalizing your affair. And while still in an affair, or after just ending and wanting the spouse to "get over it", the spouse gets painted in a bad light. All the "bad" things get blown up. And yes, I would be saying the EXACT same thing to a woman if she had made the OP. I feel that way about MYSELF, though mine never left the EA stage.

not_bubba, your wife's behavior was wrong. You actions only added to the problem. Cheating is never the answer.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I was obviously not clear in what I wrote.
> 
> Here is my reaction:
> 
> ...


We seem to be talking a bit past one another, so let me clarify as well.

I think very few women think that slamming their legs shut after the 'I dos' is very smart or even desirable. However, it seems that a certain significant segment of the female population (with a smaller cross section of men as well) think they can unilaterally make the decision that the martital deal they freely took on should be changed to remove whatever they find distasteful after some time.

And looking at that last sentence, one can just as easily make the case that this not only includes sexual 'duties' but also fidelity.

I think we both agree that this stupid selfish woman put a hell of a lot of stress on her marriage and was to blame for doing so. It broke her marriage.

Does she care? THAT is a significant question. She does as far as it impinges upon her lifestyle: that she might lose the social bump of being desireable enough to marry and to half her income. But care as far as sparing her marriage unnecessary and entirely avoidable stress? No.

Now, I think that we can also all agree that this man didn't help matters, thinking that he could keep this a secret. Add any typical cheater rationalizations. He wanted his current circumstances and decided that when the monopoly isn't providing promised service, he can go to a competitor.

Now, where I think you get it wrong is that once again, you conflate the sex and emotion thing, calling the man on it unfairly.

I can use my hand, a pillow, a fleshlight or any anonymous woman to scratch my itch. That is not relevenat.


But a man does not commit the rest of his life to his pillow or a prostitute. He made that committement to his wife...and finds that wife sex CAN be Sex*+*. He gets his release...AND he has this nice emotional fulfillment as well.

Now, you question whether he's getting Sex*+* from this other woman. That's a fair question. But in the OPs case, we know that isn't a factor at all, because his wife isn't even giving him sex.

She's upset. She's correct to be upset. She's correct to wonder if she is going to be replaced. She can do what she has to do.

But frankly, the 'it's never alright to cheat' gets a little strained here. The pious are saying to this guy 'destroy your life over sex. Halve you finances. Alienate your kids and rarely see them, move to a crappy apartment, lose half your treasured possesstions in the asset split, lose sleep and weight, label yourself as a marital failure simply because...your wife won't have sex with you.'

*DIVORCE* is a very HIGH price to pay just so he can get laid. Particularly since he didn't start this problem.

While I will not defend his actions morally, I am sympathetic to how...fuzzy one's moral calculus can get on this issue.

What I really wish is for ladies to start to get on these selfish women and start to excoriate them for their frankly crappy attitude. I know their husbands are all horrible men. Now they are horrible sexually unsatisfied men. Is that making anything better?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

JCD said:


> I am troubled that when this happens, there is a sudden flurry of fingerpointing at the man, blaming him for HIS failures of...whatever.
> 
> I would like women to occasionally woman up and say to the girls who try this crap (and I know they aren't ALL women) to get the stick out of their butt and fulfill the contract.
> 
> ...


It may be that I am not a member of the sisterhood, but I would never reflexively fingerpoint at a man who is suffering through a sexless marriage. Women talk about these things to one another, and I don't have many friends who think it's reasonable to treat their H's this way (not sure I have any friends who believe it's OK).

So, yes, it is unfair. Very much agreed. OP's point, though, goes to the appropriate response to such unacceptable behavior. I think it should not be news to any breathing grown female that men can think very differently from them about sex. By the same token, it shouldn't be news that women (in any culture) are hurt by cheating. These strike me as biological reflexes, like so much else.

So why the indignation on OP's part? He doesn't want to leave a marriage that is not fulfilling some of his basic needs, so he finds other ways to satisfy them. He shouldn't be surprised that this blows up on him. And that's my point. Men have certain well-known male characteristics, women have certain well-known female characteristics - this is a baseline that OP shouldn't be surprised at. How he handles those things is the variable & he's assigned that variable a value that he should have known would not be OK with his W.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

If he leaves his spouse over sex, his life is blown up. I challenge a single non abuse divorcee to tell me that it was a happy and easy thing to do.

If he cheats, his life MIGHT be blown up. Lots of cheating never gets caught.

That doesn't make it right. But it makes it understandable why he tried this route.

I never got the idea that he thought that his wife was not justified in being angry. He seems to have this smug idea that women don't get that sex is huge for men.

And frankly, since that author earned a bazillion dollars from 'His Needs/ Her Needs', I'm guessing he is probably more than a little correct in that assumption...however smug it was.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

JCD said:


> *DIVORCE* is a very HIGH price to pay just so he can get laid.


yup


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Your situation really stinks.
I hope your wife can find her mojo soon.
You mentioned that she needs the hour long thing prior to...perhaps that hour a few times a week will be easier than a divorce or another woman or two or whatever on the side.
I would be more dogged about pursuing her like she is a virgin who needs to be seduced, doing whatever it takes to get her into it, before I would go investing any time or resources in something that's out of the box on hand, so to speak.

Play into her fantasy, even if you do think it is immature and fairy tale like. Everyone has some kind of fantasy life they want to be living. Why not try to give it to her, and see what you get in return? It might seem unrealistic, but if you can identify it as a fantasy, maybe playing into it won't seem like you are having to cow down to being a bit player in real life...


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Jkw4338 said:


> JCD and AD, I think you are both at opposite ends of the spectrum and there is a middle ground that neither of you think is acceptable so are ignoring the option. I am leaving this thread its turning into finger pointing.


Oh no. I have the highest respect for alte Dame. I am actually trying to find some common ground here.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Your situation really stinks.
> I hope your wife can find her mojo soon.
> You mentioned that she needs the hour long thing prior to...perhaps that hour a few times a week will be easier than a divorce or another woman or two or whatever on the side.
> I would be more dogged about pursuing her like she is a virgin who needs to be seduced, doing whatever it takes to get her into it, before I would go investing any time or resources in something that's out of the box on hand, so to speak.
> ...


This is a mugs game.

She puts out a hoop for him to leap through. He does so. Next she puts another hoop. Then another...then another.

Everyone wants to have some seducing and total pampering during sex.

But let's turn it around. How about if he demanded that every single time they had sex, she needs to have her hair done, she needs to be perfectly made up, she needs to wedge herself into some rather uncomfortable lingerie...and she needs to cook him a steak.

Want to guess how many girls would go that far for their man EVERY SINGLE TIME! Few and fewer.

This isn't about romancing. It's about raising the cost of sex high enough that he doesn't want it very often.


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## green7 (Feb 4, 2013)

You sir are a freakin jerk!!! LIES!!! I really don't care what the circumstances... Cheating is NEVER, NEVER, EVER ok. No matter how you try to rationalize it to yourself. It is a very basic principle. "keep you ONLY unto her, do you so promise?" I do... END of story!! YOU are wrong. At the very least you should have told her how you were feeling or let her know how very serious the situation was for you and if she didn't listen you should have demanded counseling and if that didn't work then split but, cheating is NEVER an option! What the heck is wrong with men!!


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

green7 said:


> What the heck is wrong with *men*!!


Cough...cough...women, too...


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

green7 said:


> You sir are a freakin jerk!!! LIES!!! I really don't care what the circumstances... Cheating is NEVER, NEVER, EVER ok. No matter how you try to rationalize it to yourself. It is a very basic principle. "keep you ONLY unto her, do you so promise?" I do... END of story!! YOU are wrong. At the very least you should have told her how you were feeling or let her know how very serious the situation was for you and if she didn't listen you should have demanded counseling and if that didn't work then split but, cheating is NEVER an option! *What the heck is wrong with men!!*


How about changing it to "What the heck is wrong with *people*"....


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

green7 said:


> You sir are a freakin jerk!!! LIES!!! I really don't care what the circumstances... Cheating is NEVER, NEVER, EVER ok. No matter how you try to rationalize it to yourself. It is a very basic principle. "keep you ONLY unto her, do you so promise?" I do... END of story!! YOU are wrong. At the very least you should have told her how you were feeling or let her know how very serious the situation was for you and if she didn't listen you should have demanded counseling and if that didn't work then split but, cheating is NEVER an option! What the heck is wrong with men!!


Yeah, going batsh!t on an online forum is going to solve that problem.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

JCD said:


> If he leaves his spouse over sex, his life is blown up. I challenge a single non abuse divorcee to tell me that it was a happy and easy thing to do.
> 
> If he cheats, his life MIGHT be blown up. Lots of cheating never gets caught.
> 
> ...


I'm not at all saying that divorce is an easy solution. He and his W are apparently in a marriage that has serious and sad problems. I understand why he took this route and I actually sympathize with his plight and disapprove of his W's behavior re sex.

My only point is that he shouldn't be gobsmacked that his W reacts the way she does. Nor should he think that women don't know the value that men put on sex. Nor should he believe that women in other parts of the world are OK with infidelity. They aren't; it's biologically understandable, too, because it's in their interest to keep the man tied to the nest to support the children. So, if you look at surveys internationally, you find that women have like views about cheating, but the men are allowed greater or lesser degrees of passes based on the cultural dynamics.

He does seem to be smug & think that women don't understand the import of sex for men, when they do. What women don't get is how it is really materially different from their own sex drives. Women think it's the same as themselves, only more somehow.

(FWIW, as a woman, I long ago stopped trying to understand my H's inner motivations for sex. I don't think I can ever really understand them, but I can respect them. I always saw it as a matter of the golden rule and of personal dignity, i.e., if my H put himself out there to show me that he wanted sex, I would respect that and respond, not just because I enjoyed the sex, but because I thought it would be a gratuitous swipe at his dignity to turn him down. Just as I would feel hurt and humiliated if I put myself out there to ask him and he rejected me, I assumed he would feel the same. Maybe a man wouldn't feel that way and maybe I have projected all these years, but the result is that we don't have anything like the dynamics described by OP.)


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

JCD said:


> Oh no. I have the highest respect for alte Dame. I am actually trying to find some common ground here.


Likewise JCD. When men and women start to talk about fundamental issues like this, the task of seeking the common ground can be difficult but can be handled with respect, which I hope I am doing. (I tend to argue too cerebrally, if anything - my bad).


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

JCD said:


> Now, where I think you get it wrong is that once again, you conflate the sex and emotion thing, calling the man on it unfairly.


I think I'm having a bad morning expressing myself .

I'm not trying to call him on it. I think it's one of those difficult contradictory things that we all negotiate in relationships and helps a bit to explain why women react the way they do.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

JCD said:


> If he cheats, his life MIGHT be blown up. Lots of cheating never gets caught.
> 
> That doesn't make it right. But it makes it understandable why he tried this route.


Ok I can't help it, if his wife were a quadriplegic from a car accident and was not able to meet his sexual needs, would you feel he is justified in cheating or divorcing? The consensus here seems to think it is, at least the divorcing action.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Jkw4338 said:


> Ok I can't help it, if his wife were a quadriplegic from a car accident and was not able to meet his sexual needs, would you feel he is justified in cheating or divorcing? The consensus here seems to think it is, at least the divorcing action.


Well, if she can't have sex with him and can't change that fact and he needs sex (as most people do), then he should inform her that he's going to get his needs met elsewhere and then go do do. Divorce seems nasty when she needs his care, but he could technically divorce her and still be her caretaker if she doesn't accept that he needs to get his sex somewhere.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

moxy said:


> Well, if she can't have sex with him and can't change that fact and he needs sex (as most people do), then he should inform her that he's going to get his needs met elsewhere and then go do do. Divorce seems nasty when she needs his care, but he could technically divorce her and still be her caretaker if she doesn't accept that he needs to get his sex somewhere.


That is so shallow. You marry for better or for worse. Sex is not a biological need.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Jkw4338 said:


> That is so shallow. You marry for better or for worse. Sex is not a biological need.


Wrong.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Wrong.


How so?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Procreation is necessary for the human race to continue. Just because it is also pleasurable does not mean it is not a biological need.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Jkw4338 said:


> Sex is not a biological need.


I soooo _agree_!


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Procreation is necessary for the human race to continue. Just because it is also pleasurable does not mean it is not a biological need.


Procreation is not a biological need. Air, water, food, sleep, those are but f'ng is not. So tell me Dig, if your wife were a quadriplegic, you would feel you have to leave her because she would not be able to have sex with you?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

So...if no one procreated and the human race entered extinction that would be okay?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

JCD said:


> Here is the thing: I've seen many threads where women bemoan the lack of intimacy in the bedroom. Occasionally, they admit that prior to that, they weren't exactly...enthusiastic in the sack.
> 
> But I have read many MANY threads about men saying the same things. For years! So kudos to you for getting it. Your sisters do not seem to, or they don't care.


The people who come here do so because their marriages are in trouble for one reason or another. More men seem to come here for support than women. On several threads here about why more men post there than women, it’s pretty much the consensus that this is because women then to have stronger support systems in real life than men. So more men are seeking support online.
Since there are more men here, we would definitely expect to find more posts from men about lack of sex in marriage than from women. 
My experience, from my own life, in by marriages, is that it’s the man despite my being a wife with a high sex drive (daily works for me), my husband’s chose to cheat and eventually it was they who decided to end our sex life. 


JCD said:


> Why should they? They got their husband. They got the paycheck. And if he gets physically desperate enough to fail morally, or he finally decides that he can't take it anymore, she gets the kids, the house, child support and half his bank.


This is another very skewed assumption. More than 70% of all married women work outside the home. More and more women are getting careers that pay the same, or very close to what men earn. 

In addition, generally SAHMs work very hard to take care of the children, the household and to support her husband’s career. This is a decision that usually the couple makes together. She gives up the chance to earn an income to give a very important type of support to her husband and children. The agreement they make is that what he earns is also hers. If a husband does not agree to this then the wife would be downright stupid to give up her ability to support herself and her children. Marriage is a legal contract. They both signed the legal contract and thus it governs who income and assets are split.

When a couple gets divorce she does not get the paycheck. Most of the time, in most states women get no alimony unless it’s a long term marriage. If it’s a long term marriage the most she can get from a paycheck is about 30%. If it’s a short term marriage the norm is rehabilitative alimony for half the length of the marriage. More and more however the courts, even in California, are requiring the woman (or lower income spouse because this can be the man as well) to become sell supporting.

It is true that in community property states the assets (bank) are split 50/50. So are the debts by the way.. you forgot about the debt. In equitable distribution stats (that’s most states) the higher earning spouse tends to get 2/3’s of the assets.
In a marriage in which a woman has had a job she has contributed to the income and the assets. They are not HIS they are THEIRS. In my marriages I have always ended up to be the bread winner. I know quite a few women who earn a lot more than their husbands. And guess what, if we get a divorce we could end up paying support as well. It’s not about gender, it’s about how a couple decides to structure their family.

In divorce the wife does not get the children. Both parents usually get joint custody with a split in time sharing. More and more that split is 50/50. If the woman gets more time with the children it’s usually because she has been the primary care taker of the children. It’s in the children’s best interest that they spend more time at firs with the parent who has been their primary care giver.



JCD said:


> All this is a unilateral decision. I'm sure she can point to X, Y, and Z on how HE failed...but the point remains she is making a unilateral decision to sabatoge a marriage.
> 
> So do you wonder why men get worked up about this?


Your assumption seems to be that when a woman does not have sex often (or never) with her husband that she is doing it out of some malic or selfish reason. I am sure that there are women and men who do things like unilaterally decide to keep their marriage sexless, or near sexless. But more often I think it’s because the spouse who does not want sex is not getting their needs met in the marriage to the extent that is needed to keep their passion alive.

For most of the people who come here we do not get both sides of the story. Like in this case we only know his side of the story. For all we know she has been telling him what her issues are for years and he just blows her off. 

There was a thread here a while back in which a man was talking about his sexless (or near sexless) marriage. Everyone was siding with him and telling him to dump her etc. Then she joined and posted on his thread with “the rest of the story”. Apparently this guy only bathed every week or two. He never brushed his teeth. He spent his time lying in bed watching TV. When he wanted sex he’d just strip down, lay down in bed, and tell her to come get on him. 

My point is that there is often a reason why a woman’s sex drive decreases. Sure some women are just selfish, self-serving, etc. (as are some men). But in most marriages there are issues that need to be addressed. It takes two to make a marriage work. To assume that most women who do not want sex with their spouse are doing it maliciously or out of selfishness wrong. It takes two to make a marriage work. When both are not engaged in making it work, a woman’s sex drive is often one of the first things to go. Add to this the things women have to deal with in having children, PPD, hormonal swings, etc. 



JCD said:


> Edited to add: I see you see she has a share of the blame.


Yes, they both share blame for the state of their marriage and their sex life. But we do not know how much blame each of them shoulders. We do not have her side of the story. Until we have that we cannot even start to speculate why she was pulled away from him sexually.
All we can really tell the OP is that his choice to cheat is 100% on him. We can sympathize/empathize with him being in a sexless marriage. And we can give him ideas of things he can do to fix the marriage and tell him that if he really tries and she does not join him in fixing the marriage then he should probably leave the marriage.
I am not going to just jump on her (or if it’s a man who does not want sex) and automatically assume that her actions are based on some malicious agenda, selfishness, etc. Not when I don’t have both sides to the story.


JCD said:


> I am troubled that when this happens, there is a sudden flurry of fingerpointing at the man, blaming him for HIS failures of...whatever.
> 
> I would like women to occasionally woman up and say to the girls who try this crap (and I know they aren't ALL women) to get the stick out of their butt and fulfill the contract.
> 
> ...


Apparently you have not read the few threads we get here from women who talk about them not wanting sex with their husband/partner. Because the ones I’ve been on the women here tell them that they have to work to fix this. We tell them that their attitude is just downright wrong and abusive to their husband/partner.
The reason that, when a man comes here and complains about a sexless marriage that he is often given ideas of things he can do to get the sex life back on track is because he is the one who is here complaining. We cannot tell her anything because she is not here. A person can change a marriage via unilateral changes. When a woman comes here and complains that their sex life has decreased she is given similar advice. 

And no I’m not going to tell a woman that because she is married she has to have sex with her husband no matter what is going on in the marriage. Women are no longer possessions. 
What I do tell women (and men) who do not want sex with their spouse is that they are obligated to work with their spouse to fix their personal problems, health problems, marital problems. They are obligated to work with their spouse to rebuild the passion in the marriage so that they are the love and passion returns to their marriage. This is why I have links in my signature block below for how to build a passionate marriage.
If they and/or their spouse are not willing to do this work, then they should most likely get a divorce. No one should unwillingly live in a sexless, passionless marriage.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> So...if no one procreated and the human race entered extinction that would be okay?


Were talking about one marriage not the whole human race.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jkw4338 said:


> That is so shallow. You marry for better or for worse. Sex is not a biological need.


Sex is a biological need. It is the major mechanism through which a man and woman form that bond that keeps them together as a couple. Without the sex the bond is broken and the desire to stay together, to work together, to even see each other in a good light and not be irritated by the close relationship is gone.

People do not die if they do not have sex. But they miss out on the health and emotional benefits from sex and the very close relationship it produces.

Look up oxytocin. Learn about it's function in humans and other animals.

Sure if one spouse can not have sex for health reasons then the couple might decided that they choose to continue on in a sexless marriage out of love. But even when one person cannot have sex in 'normal' ways there are other sexual things that they can do. So there is seldom a health reason for a sexless marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jkw4338 said:


> Procreation is not a biological need. Air, water, food, sleep, those are but f'ng is not. So tell me Dig, if your wife were a quadriplegic, you would feel you have to leave her because she would not be able to have sex with you?


Hm... I know a quadripeligc man who has sex with his wife. 

I also know a man who has been paralized from the waste down down high school do to a car accident. He and his wife of 30 years have a sex life as well.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Jkw4338 said:


> Procreation is not a biological need. Air, water, food, sleep, those are but f'ng is not. So tell me Dig, if your wife were a quadriplegic, you would feel you have to leave her because she would not be able to have sex with you?


:scratchhead:
I would expect that MY husband would come to me and tell me how he feels about the lack of sex and, at that point would choose to allow him to have an extramarital relationship, or divorce. Correct me if I am wrong... but I thought that even quadriplegics are capable of having sex. So that scenario, IMO, is flawed.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

SomedayDig said:


> So...if no one procreated and the human race entered extinction that would be okay?


No. But if even 10 MILLION people didn't have sex the human race would still go on.

But I can guarantee you that the problems in the marriage that this thread is about has LITTLE to do with sex...or lack thereof.

My ex-husband and I went to marriage counseling after being married for several years. He was very controlling. He put me down quite a bit, controlled the money, called me names, etc. 

At the first counseling session, I opened up and told the counselor my view. When it was my ex's turn, all he talked about was SEX, and how he wasn't "getting any". 

When he was finished talking, the counselor looked at me, then looked at him...looked at me and shook her head. She turned to my ex and said, "Sir, you have a LONG way to go before you even start THINKING about having sex with this woman, and I can guarantee you, that unless you make some SERIOUS changes in your attitude and your thinking, you will never have sex with her again!" 

My ex never changed. 

...and the counselor was right.

Vega


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

No, we're talking about the fact that sex IS a biological need. Whether any of us want to admit it, we do need sex. You said procreation is not a biological need, which is also totally wrong. Just accept that part.

Now, if you want to debate the hypothetical situation of a wheelchair bound quad, then fine. But don't make a blanket statement about the biology of the human race...that's all.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Sex is a biological need. It is the major mechanism through which a man and woman form that bond that keeps them together as a couple. Without the sex the bond is broken and the desire to stay together, to work together, to even see each other in a good light and not be irritated by the close relationship is gone.
> 
> People do not die if they do not have sex. But they miss out on the health and emotional benefits from sex and the very close relationship it produces.
> 
> ...


I totally disagree ("Sex is a biological need","People do not die if they do not have sex", contradiction).


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Vega said:


> No. But if 10 MILLION people didn't have sex the human race would still go on.


But that's not the point. The blanket statement that sex is NOT a biological need is wrong. That procreation is NOT a biological need is wrong.

It's kind of like getting those right wing radical emails that snopes proves wrong year after year, yet people continue to propogate the lie.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> No, we're talking about the fact that sex IS a biological need. Whether any of us want to admit it, we do need sex. You said procreation is not a biological need, which is also totally wrong. Just accept that part.
> 
> Now, if you want to debate the hypothetical situation of a wheelchair bound quad, then fine. But don't make a blanket statement about the biology of the human race...that's all.


Procreation is not a biological need, accept that. Were talking about whether marriage vows are truly for better or worse. Cheating and divorcing are not following those vows. You advocated divorcing.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Wow. I guess being a biology and chemistry major in college means nothing when dealing with people on an internet forum cuz THEY know everything. Accept that.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Wow. I guess being a biology and chemistry major in college means nothing when dealing with people on an internet forum cuz THEY know everything. Accept that.


Trying to change the subject are you? What about your opinion that divorce is ok, breaking your vows is ok. You surely are not ok with cheating breaking your vows.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

I'm NOT trying to change the subject. I'm trying to prove the point of biological needs in the human organism.

As for my views on divorce and breaking vows...well, you obviously don't know my story. I'm a BS who's WS had a 5 year long physical affair.

However, I am unwilling to let what happened to me influence the way I interact with people here. Look at my first posts in this thread. I told the guy that his wife withholding sex is wrong. I also stated that his having an affair is absolutely wrong and not the way to go.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> I'm NOT trying to change the subject. I'm trying to prove the point of biological needs in the human organism.
> 
> As for my views on divorce and breaking vows...well, you obviously don't know my story. I'm a BS who's WS had a 5 year long physical affair.
> 
> However, I am unwilling to let what happened to me influence the way I interact with people here. Look at my first posts in this thread. I told the guy that his wife withholding sex is wrong. I also stated that his having an affair is absolutely wrong and not the way to go.


I read your story from the beginning but that does not eliminate the fact that you have a double standard on your vows as stated in an earlier post. You said its ok to divorce when your wife does not have sex with you, you and others.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Sex is a biological need. It is the major mechanism through which a man and woman form that bond that keeps them together as a couple. Without the sex the bond is broken and the desire to stay together, to work together, to even see each other in a good light and not be irritated by the close relationship is gone.


So when a man goes to a prostitute for sex, is he looking for that "bond" that "keeps them together" with her? Is he seeing her in a "good light"?

Maybe women just get tired of being treated like prostitutes without the _pay_...

BTW...in THIS day and age with the advances of science and test tube babies, NO ONE needs to have sex in order for the human race to continue. We have the technology to remove a woman's eggs and fertilize them outside of her body. No act of sex is necessary.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

Ok my point is that people think Marriage is only about sex, at least men do and that is very shallow in my opinion. This dude has no right to cheat for sure, but divorcing his wife for sex is not right either, it is not the only thing that a marriage is based on. When there are children involved there is a whole lot more involved. I think that a lot of people on TAM place too much emphasis on sex and sex alone. Sorry Dig, didn't mean to pick on you, just make people think.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

AFTER you try to talk it out. THEN it's okay to move ahead with an irreconcilable differences divorce. What's wrong with that? I have no double standard with my wedding vows.

"For better or worse doesn't mean you have to take a bunch of sh-t." True quote from my priest in Richmond, VA when talking about my ex-wife's continuing her affair after Dday.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> AFTER you try to talk it out. THEN it's okay to move ahead with an irreconcilable differences divorce. What's wrong with that? I have no double standard with my wedding vows.
> 
> "For better or worse doesn't mean you have to take a bunch of sh-t." True quote from my priest in Richmond, VA when talking about my ex-wife's continuing her affair after Dday.


I agree with Vega, there is a lot more to this story that does not get revealed on here because it is one sided. His wife is not having sex with him for probably a multitude of other reasons, maybe not right maybe they are. But its too easy for TAM'ers to say divorce, kick her to the curb, etc despite that.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> AFTER you try to talk it out. THEN it's okay to move ahead with an irreconcilable differences divorce. What's wrong with that? I have no double standard with my wedding vows.
> 
> "For better or worse doesn't mean you have to take a bunch of sh-t." True quote from my priest in Richmond, VA when talking about my ex-wife's continuing her affair after Dday.


You know what Dig, you are a decent human being, for all you put up with and still remain with your wife, you would not leave her if she was a quadriplegic. IMO


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Jkw4338 said:


> Ok my point is that people think Marriage is only about sex, at least men do and that is very shallow in my opinion. This dude has no right to cheat for sure, but divorcing his wife for sex is not right either, it is not the only thing that a marriage is based on. When there are children involved there is a whole lot more involved. I think that a lot of people on TAM place too much emphasis on sex and sex alone. Sorry Dig, didn't mean to pick on you.


Ugh! If you had read the responses, rather than skim through them, you would have seen where those who say "divorce her because you're not having sex" said to do it AFTER other options to resolve the issue WITH HIS WIFE were exhausted. Meaning, try to work it out with her FIRST. If you can't come to an AGREEMENT, then divorce. And the OP CLAIMS it began way before she even became pregnant. He put up with it. He set the precedent that it was perfectly fine. It's not fine. And he should have stressed that fact in the very beginning. But he allowed it to continue.

Now, not ONE person have I seen in this thread state that marriage is "sex only". As a matter of fact, I'd be hard pressed to find any views on here of "sex only". Do they (or WE, because some of us women feel this way too!) say sex is important in marriage? DAMN STRAIGHT we do! It IS important in a HEALTHY marriage, unless it was AGREED upon before those papers were signed, it is REASONABLE to expect that sex will be part of the marriage. HOWEVER, even if sex is cut off, it doesn't give anyone license to cheat, no matter how much they try to rationalize it.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Ugh! If you had read the responses, rather than skim through them, you would have seen where those who say "divorce her because you're not having sex" said to do it AFTER other options to resolve the issue WITH HIS WIFE were exhausted. Meaning, try to work it out with her FIRST. If you can't come to an AGREEMENT, then divorce. And the OP CLAIMS it began way before she even became pregnant. He put up with it. He set the precedent that it was perfectly fine. It's not fine. And he should have stressed that fact in the very beginning. But he allowed it to continue.
> 
> Now, not ONE person have I seen in this thread state that marriage is "sex only". As a matter of fact, I'd be hard pressed to find any views on here of "sex only". Do they (or WE, because some of us women feel this way too!) say sex is important in marriage? DAMN STRAIGHT we do! It IS important in a HEALTHY marriage, unless it was AGREED upon before those papers were signed, it is REASONABLE to expect that sex will be part of the marriage. HOWEVER, even if sex is cut off, it doesn't give anyone license to cheat, no matter how much they try to rationalize it.


I read the whole thing just like you. Nowhere in my comments did I say that sex was not important in a marriage. I said it is not a biological need. Sex is important but lack there of does not mean divorce or cheating.

There is a propensity for male TAMers to jump to the conclusion that if they don't get sex that their wives are monsters. That is not always the case.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Jkw4338 said:


> You know what Dig, you are a decent human being, for all you put up with and still remain with your wife, you would not leave her if she was a quadriplegic. IMO


No. I would never leave her. Truth is, even though she thoroughly trashed the ever living sh-t out of our wedding vows, I wouldn't. I've had quite a chance over my career as a pilot. I never did it. I'm not saying I wasn't flattered by the come ons, however...you can't stop a bird from flying over your head - you can stop it from making a nest in your hair.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> It IS important in a HEALTHY marriage... it is REASONABLE to expect that sex will be part of the marriage.


How MUCH sex? What KIND of sex? If a male partner came here and compained about "not getting enough" I don't think that we get to say "kick her azz to the curb!" without knowing what "...ENOUGH..." means to HIM. Maybe he expects to be "deep-throated" 6 times a day. 

If that was the truth, would we still be saying to "kick her to the curb"?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Reading through all of this, I come full circle to my first reaction, which was that women generally well understand that men think sex is very important & that men generally understand that women think that fidelity is very important. (This is, of course, not to imply that sex isn't important for women, or fidelity not important for men. It's just that that is not the focus of OP's discourse.)

For OP to say that in general women need to be instructed on the male need for sex is, for me, not reasonable. It's also not reasonable to think that women don't know that men can view sex with another W as 'not meaningful' and thus not threatening to a relationship. As far as the fidelity question, OP apparently assumed that going outside the marriage for sex would be problematical for his W or he wouldn't have hidden it.

So, I don't believe it is making people aware of these values that is the issue. I believe it is how OP and his W negotiate their own path regarding these things in their own marriage.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Vega said:


> How MUCH sex? What KIND of sex? If a male partner came here and compained about "not getting enough" I don't think that we get to say "kick her azz to the curb!" without knowing what "...ENOUGH..." means to HIM. Maybe he expects to be "deep-throated" 6 times a day.
> 
> If that was the truth, would we still be saying to "kick her to the curb"?


How about sticking to just "normal" sex. What's wrong with having sex as often as before they married, after the papers are signed? He claims it stopped right after. He claims they have gone months without sex, even years with pregnancy and birth of one child. In this case, I absolutely agree that THAT frequency is unacceptable. I wouldn't allow that to continue in my marriage. SOMETHING would be done to resolve it. The "extras" are just that...extra. Why this is so hard for some to grasp, I really don't know. And what I was saying is that it isn't unreasonable to expect PIV sex will be regular... not necessarily the "extras"... Not_bubba stated that it ALL ended/decreased significantly, to the point of at most, once every few months. Unacceptable...yet still does not excuse an affair. I still would not have sex with someone else if I wasn't having sex with my husband. And he wouldn't have sex with someone else either. But we BOTH expect that there is a sex life... a reasonably acceptable to BOTH of us, sex life...where we have sex at MINIMUM once a week (would be more if not for his medications). Anyway, PIV is reasonably acceptable. Everything else is extra.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Sex is a biological need for me. 

My mind is made up...don't confuse me w facts. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

old timer said:


> Sex is a biological need for me.
> 
> My mind is made up...don't confuse me w facts.
> 
> ...


It's ok, I need it too. 
Fortunately, my husband knows and complies... because he needs it too.


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## ChknNoodleSoup (Oct 20, 2012)

My stbx was getting sex when he wanted it. And he was always LD. I am high drive and after initiating and being shot down, just gave up. He cheated and I didn't. I don't think men cheat for (more) sex. They cheat for new or other sex. If you want sex, you want it with a specific person usually. Not just from anyone who offers it. Or at least that is how I am. I can't speak for everyone.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jkw4338 said:


> I totally disagree ("Sex is a biological need","People do not die if they do not have sex", contradiction).


Now we are down to what the definition of a biological need is.

You are using the difinition that a biological need is what is required to stay alive.

I am using a definition that includes things that we are biologically driven to do. Humans (except for the very small percent who are asexual) are driven by the biology of their bodies to seek out sex and to procreate.

Further, children are much more likely to thrive and grow into healthy, successful adults, if they are raised by their biological parents who have a strong bond with each other and how together love their child(ren). 

When we look at the entire biology of humans, sex is a need because it satisfies both the bonding and the procreation that our biology drives us to.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Vega said:


> So when a man goes to a prostitute for sex, is he looking for that "bond" that "keeps them together" with her? Is he seeing her in a "good light"?


There is a difference between sex with a prostitute and sex with a wife who is supposed to be a life-long partner.

Very often a man will use a prostitute to just have some kind of human touch. There are many men, single and married, who never get any touch at all. There are wives ( not all my any means) who will not even touch their husband or allow him to touch her. So these guys get starved for sex. I also have known single guys who went to a prostitute just for the human touch and someone to talk to. Many times men who go to prostitutes do not even have sex with them. 

It takes more than one sex act with a person to produce enough oxytocin to bond to that person. So not one visit with a prostitute will not do that.

Also keep in mind that when a man wants casual sex, it’s hard for him to find. It’s not like he can walk into a bar and have a lot of women there buy him drinks and try to seduce him into a one night stand. So they often will use a prostitute when they have no other outlet for the biological need.

Now most women can walk into a bar anywhere in the world and end up going in bed with a man that night for a one night stand. So most women do to pay for sex. Though there are male prostitutes who do service women.



Vega said:


> Maybe women just get tired of being treated like prostitutes without the _pay_...


Oh good Lord you sound like my mother now. Equating sex in marriage to prostitution is, well disgusting.


Vega said:


> BTW...in THIS day and age with the advances of science and test tube babies, NO ONE needs to have sex in order for the human race to continue. We have the technology to remove a woman's eggs and fertilize them outside of her body. No act of sex is necessary.


Generally to get the sperm for ‘test tube babies’ a man still needs to perform an act of sex, masturbation. 

If you want to live in a world where you equate marital sex to prostitution and babies are grown in test tubes you go for it. 

That’s not the world I live in. The world I live in people seek to love each other. Sex is a wonderful part of the world. We want to have babies the way nature intended it to happen. Of course there are couples who do want to use invetro fertilization because of infertility issues, but it’s extremely expensive. Those who do not have fertility issues have a much better, more enjoyable and loving way to make babies. It’s called sex…. And we LOVE it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Vega said:


> How MUCH sex? What KIND of sex? If a male partner came here and compained about "not getting enough" I don't think that we get to say "kick her azz to the curb!" without knowing what "...ENOUGH..." means to HIM. Maybe he expects to be "deep-throated" 6 times a day.
> 
> If that was the truth, would we still be saying to "kick her to the curb"?


Who on here is telling him to "kick her to the curb" no matter how rediculous his sexual demands of her might be.

He says that they go months without sex. There is a huge gap between getting deep-throated 6 times a day and not having sex for months. He is in a sexless marriage. (Sexless is defined as sex 10 or fewer times a year.)

What people are telling the OP is that his cheating is wrong. His attitude is wrong. His wife is not sexually attracted to him for some reason. He should first try to find out what she needs and fix their marriage. Then if that does not work then he might want to consider divorcing her if she still refuses him a more normal sex life (2-3 times a week) after significant effort is put into improving the marriage.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

Geez my biological comment was just that you can live without sex, not that Someone would necessarily want too. It's turned into a thread jack and missed my point.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm not hatin' just confused as to why people get caught up in marital sex from the male point of view. The assumptions about his wife's interest in sex and why she might not want sex is biased. 

The whole thread seems bent on characterizing sex as something a woman gives not has, their satisfaction not as important as the mans and craving variety is absent. Every single one of these assumptions is not only incorrect but not supported by reality. 

Op, You seem analytical enough so, I am surprised you are completely missing this. Your wife said she gets bored easily and made an obtuse comment about variety. 

You also said that your relationship started as a sex only one. She is clearly able to have sex with no emotional commitment just like you. 

Under the above circumstances, tell me again why you are so sure that she is not cheating now or has never cheated or will not cheat in the future when the kids are in preschool? 

You may be in an open marriage now and totally ignorant of the fact because of your own fantasy. Or you may be in the future. 

You only have yourself to blame. Given your wife's profile, you ought to be tending the home fires not running after random women. If you want your marriage to survive, work on putting some variety and fire in your sex life for both you and your wife. 

You don't seem to know her as much as you should after all these years together. Work on that. There is enough in this relationship to offer a chance for tremendous growth for both of you. 

You will not realize that potential if you are busy looking for easy pleasure. This is going to take more work than you have invested so far. With two kids, dont you think it will be worth it?

Just an aside. If she is interested in other men, do you really think she would tell your and bruise your ego? :scratchhead: Moreover, just because she is sexually bored with you does not mean she is off sex with a new man. Dah

I find it hilarious that you wrote this for women and their unrealistic expectations while holding on to your's. :rofl: Look at your situation and tell us who is being blind to reality.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

So OP, basically, you aren't man enough to stand up and get to the bottom of this no sex business. You are willing to let your wife think it's OK, while you have sex with someone else. Not only are you masking the problem, unable to stand up for what you need, but you are risking your wifes health, crushing her trust in you, risking pregnancy by another person, risking falling in love with someone else, or they falling in love with you and so on and on.

Also if your wife is pregnant or has a very young baby that could drastically effect her sex drive. I think cutting your wife some slack, having some empathy and understanding could go a long way.

I think if a woman doesn't show some interest within a year of having a baby then there is a big problem.

I personaly find it hard to be attracted to weak men who lack values and who don't priortise the relationship, moreso when they are doormats at home. 

Your cheating is on you. Keep deflecting and blaming your wife and nothing will get better.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Bubba where are you? I feel like the warm up band is giving the concert. The star of ths show should be frontin'.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I'm not at all saying that divorce is an easy solution. He and his W are apparently in a marriage that has serious and sad problems. I understand why he took this route and I actually sympathize with his plight and disapprove of his W's behavior re sex.
> 
> My only point is that he shouldn't be gobsmacked that his W reacts the way she does. Nor should he think that women don't know the value that men put on sex. Nor should he believe that women in other parts of the world are OK with infidelity. They aren't; it's biologically understandable, too, because it's in their interest to keep the man tied to the nest to support the children. So, if you look at surveys internationally, you find that women have like views about cheating, but the men are allowed greater or lesser degrees of passes based on the cultural dynamics.
> 
> ...


Then we are on the same page.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> The people who come here do so because their marriages are in trouble for one reason or another. More men seem to come here for support than women. On several threads here about why more men post there than women, it’s pretty much the consensus that this is because women then to have stronger support systems in real life than men. So more men are seeking support online.


Snipped for brevity.

I realize more men are here than women. I forgot that fact, but I am also aware that women seem to use sex more as a weapon and women just don't get how high a need sex is to men. Period. The occasional HD woman such as yourself notwithstanding. I have heard the wives of my friends, family and mine own, wondering why the hell the man is always chasing them...until they don't anymore....

Karma.

Women tend to suffer more in divorces, at least according to a few studies, though I would be interested in reading their methodology. That said, the way American divorce law is set up, it is flagrantely anti-man. My friend married a woman who cheated on him, does drugs (occasionally) and moved a man in directly...and his 'joint custody' is his occasional weekend with the kids. Nice...very nice.

There are tons of men who bemoan what happens to them, and they aren't all skinflints or horrible men. Very few men make spurious DV accusations to get the house. Likewise sex abuse of the kids. This isn't the average woman, but it isn't exactly rare.

I recall that thread you spoke of. I've always tried to be a bit...cautious about excoriating the non posting spouse but we have to deal with the information we are given. 

If some guy says he does the housework, earns the living, and takes care of the kids...well...it' probably isn't a LOT of housework, but how do we know?

The man can be a bad lover. The woman might not find it particularly fulfilling. (I am totally on board with hygiene issues, though as a man, I'll criticize her pits AFTER sex, not before)

SO WHAT?

He might not like her laugh. He might not like her cooking. He might be 'unfulfilled' by her sense of cleaning. Life is full of disappointments. Eventually, you accept who the person is...and I'm sure that however much the man isn't a prize, the wife probably isn't June Cleaver.

Sex is important.

I also recall several recent threads where the LD women were essentially saying to the men 'get over it. This is what you get. Accept it'.

Now in two of those cases, LB was putting out more than she should and the other woman seemed in a semi abusive situation. Others...not so much.

But I will try to dial down the hyperbole.  I don't have that type of marriage, but I can understand the frustration of the men involved in that kind of thing.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> So OP, basically, you aren't man enough to stand up and get to the bottom of this no sex business. You are willing to let your wife think it's OK, while you have sex with someone else. Not only are you masking the problem, unable to stand up for what you need, but you are risking your wifes health, crushing her trust in you, risking pregnancy by another person, risking falling in love with someone else, or they falling in love with you and so on and on.
> 
> Also if your wife is pregnant or has a very young baby that could drastically effect her sex drive. I think cutting your wife some slack, having some empathy and understanding could go a long way.
> 
> ...


Yes, but...

She isn't interested for a reason. We don't know that reason. And the reasons could run the gamut from his lack of hygeine or consideration to pure selfishness.

Let me also go to a slightly thorny subject: cultural conditioning. Yes, supposedly, we are in the age of free love, where everyone wants to shag everyone else.

But we aren't that far from the 50's 60's where home ec classes taught that wives needed to put up with their spousal duties (and it was considered DUTIES...with all it's implications)

And I've been with a number of friends who were girls who bemoaned about how men just HAD to get their dingles wet constantly and that they had no self control etc. Essentially, there is a subtext in culture that the male sex drive is somehow abnormal.

And with that subtext, women, for valid and invalid reasons, feel justified in cutting it off. It isn't a blatant cultural meme, but it exists.


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

Jkw4338 said:


> That is so shallow. You marry for better or for worse. Sex is not a biological need.


This ISSUE is not shallow. I do not agree with the cheating....I dont really care about her at the moment...but since he is telling his story...?asking for help...in his way....I DO care about him.

The cheating is bad for HIM. He knows its a dishonorable thing to do and he is hurting himself in this. If for no other reason than self respect...it needs to stop.

As far as the quote above....well I dont agree with that.....we dont have NO DIVORCE like in the Philippines...(where people then just DO go ahead and have affairs)...

Marriage is for better for worse as long as everyone puts in the best effort they can.....

There is a HUGE difference between...

(1)"I just dont like sex with you and I DONT want to talk about it..I dont CARE that its important to you...I dont want to.....and I dont want to go to therapy...and that is that....dear...."

vs.

(2) She got into an accident and is unable to do certain sex acts but still wants intimacy...or it causes her pain due to fibroids...but she still wants other types of sexual intimacy...or she has Alzhiemers disease and cant understand it anymore...in other words...REAL health problems.....or maybe he still cares for her but cant handle sex due to a physical deformity...despite trying everything he has ED...(but could still do other things for her)...

For me personally....in case number (1) she is abandoning him unless he already knew about this and was ok with it....and then perhaps just changed HIS mind...I bet that is rare....

Basically sex in that case is a normal human need, like love....certainly love is not a need for LIFE...but most of us think its a need for a life of ANY quality...people have lived without it....but should you do so voluntarily if it destroys your life and you have options?

I think her type of abandonment ....while still expecting fidelity...??? is foolhardy..come on...

Im not saying it should have gone down this way.....there has to be a better way....but she was absolutely asking for it...maybe she did it on purpose to try to get HIM to end the relationship as she cant bring herself to do it..who knows.....

Now....

In case (2), well that is different....it becomes an even bigger moral issue and a love issue. Absolutely I can see myself giving up on specific acts of sex as they are not a need...I could live without it and I would rather do so and get whatever intimacy I could get with my wife if she were ill or injured and therefore unable to engage in full sex or even do much of anything....that is totally different...100%. 

In my self....sex and love and absolutely tied together when it has to do with the wife......and I DO feel its a need for me to survive.cause I need to be loved and that is my love language really....Ive tested this out...and its just the way I am.....and if she took it away from me with no explanation I would certainly be sure she no longer was in love with me. In that way sex is a need for me....

But if she could not do it for real and insoluble reasons.....I love her so very much I would stay with her forever, take care of her to the absolute best of my ability...always be faithful...and be intimate in whatever ways were possible.

Sex is not a need....that is a relative concept to me.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

alte Dame,

It's funny you should mention culture. My wife and I had a conversation. I am away from home for very long stretches. VERY long. My wife...subtly green lit me getting one rubbed out without emotion once in a while.

Now, I know a sh*t test when I hear one, but she is not from a Western culture. While it isn't her OPTIMUM solution, she understands that meaningless (protected) sex with a pro is a far better option for her than falling into a relationship with another woman...even without sex.

Obviously I did not take her up on this. She never considered that me getting a hummer was infidelty...but as soon as she discovered _*I*_ did, it came RIGHT off the table. (No, I never got one)

I need to second the idea about men and human touch. Strip clubs make incredible profit just from casual human pseudo sexual contact (I am not even talking lap dances). I've experienced it. A work group went to a Bangkok bar. After months of almost no human contact, some bar girls went for the full court press.

MY GOD! 

There was no sexual contact, but just suddenly having someone ANYONE touch you...

That was very dangerous! I get why men fall into that. I don't care a whit for them, but it was so...comforting even KNOWING it was all a lie.

Needless to say, I won't be doing THAT again.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

JCD said:


> Yes, but...
> 
> She isn't interested for a reason. We don't know that reason. And the reasons could run the gamut from his lack of hygeine or consideration to pure selfishness.
> 
> ...


I agree cultural conditioning is a huge problem for men and women.

No we don't know the reasons, but he needs to find out, rather then cheat. If they are incompatible and she simply will not work with him on this then she needs to know what is at stake and they both can make an informed decisions.

Most women when given the choice to find out why they don't desire their husbands and losing the marriage will find out. I firmly believe that, and then it can be addressed. They both could be playing a part in sabotaging their relationship.

However him thinking he has a right to cheat, tells me a lot about his character, and it's not one that brings with it trust or anything that might lead to a long term solution that makes their marriage stronger and love life better.


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## jmb123 (Nov 9, 2012)

not_bubba said:


> I am in a 7 year marriage with one kid and another soon and we have dealt with some infidelity issues (me) and I was reading threads here for insight.
> 
> BUT it seems to me on this American site that a LOT of women are a little impractical and idealistic on these matters. Seems the advice is heavily divorce, don't trust, punish, etc even if the husband is mostly good. First off, keep in mind all affairs are not the same. Everyone is different, but generally speaking, men suffer more from lack of sex. Also, most men can separate sex from emotional matters very easily. If they are being otherwise attentive, not having an emotional affair, and not looking to devote effort to others outside of physical needs being met it is NOT necessarily the end of the world.
> 
> ...


Before reading further comments on your post,I just wanted to say that this is pure b*** s***. I do not belong to Amrica but to a highlly conservative culture.And here infidelity is not-acceptible.So your saying that women should take crap form POS's who cheat on their wives and blame it on lack of enough sex have no right to remain married.

WHY DID YOU NOT GET DIVORCED.DO YOU HAVE THE GUTS TO TELL THE SOCIETY OPENLY THIS PHILOSOPHY OF YOURS.THAT MEANS YOU ARE NOT DOING SOMETHING RIGHT.AND IF IN YOUR HOUSE SLEEPING WITH OM OR OW IS ALLOWED,DO NOT GENERALIZE IT FOR THE WHOLE WORLD.

Your wife not being physical intimate to you is a grave problem and the solution you sought for this is to have sex with somebody else.THIS IS NOT A MARRIAGE. I wonder for what kind of SUPPORT you came to this FORUM.

If human beings are actually just animals and there are just sexual instincts which cannot be controlled(by men or women like you) ,why fake under the 'civilization' and why taint the concept of 'marraige' because these are just mere words for you all.

Reading your post ,I just felt all there is in a relationship is sex and sexual demand and if that cannot be fulfiled,there is cheating for sure.I am sure animals also do not cheat for they never act at the first place of being commited.

IMO,absurd thinking.Nothing to do even with basic instincts.Because there is no dishonesty or cheating nvolved with basic instincts


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

JCD said:


> Snipped for brevity.
> 
> I realize more men are here than women. I forgot that fact, but I am also aware that women seem to use sex more as a weapon and women just don't get how high a need sex is to men. Period. The occasional HD woman such as yourself notwithstanding. I have heard the wives of my friends, family and mine own, wondering why the hell the man is always chasing them...until they don't anymore....


You make a lot of assumptions about all women based on some women you have spoken to. Because you know some women who do not like sex, it does not mean that the majority of women are like this.


Who do you think men are cheating with? WOMEN!!!! Women who love sex. Who would have guessed???


Here is a pole that’s been around this forum for a while. Almost 90% of the women who responded say they love sex. My sex drive is hardly rare.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...en-do-you-like-love-sex-dislike-hate-sex.html


You trying to tell women what we believe/feel about sex is as much nonsense as a women coming on her pontificating about what men believe/feel about sex.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

As a woman who has experienced marriage to men who withhold sex and who play games with it... I'm so glad to see that finally a study has been done about sexless marriages. The results are what I've suspected for a long time. 

15%-20% of American couples have a sexless marriage. (Couples have sex 10 times per year or less.)

“Most professionals believe that low desire is experienced by men and women equally. So what is his side of the story?”

So men (YES MEN) are the ones withhold sex about half the time.

Read more: FOXSexpert: Five Reasons Men Stop Having Sex | Fox News


Can we stop this nonsense now of blaming all women for sexless marriages?


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Op, You seem analytical enough so, I am surprised you are completely missing this. Your wife said she gets bored easily and made an obtuse comment about variety.
> 
> You also said that your relationship started as a sex only one. She is clearly able to have sex with no emotional commitment just like you.


Yes, although it evolved into a commitment since we became married. She was also the one wanting to get married. I was reluctant. But she was quite happy it happened. So I was all the more befuddled with the changes. I wish I knew why, but I am not psychic. All I can do is ask and I am not going to ask on and on because it is pointless if she will not discuss it. 



Catherine602 said:


> Under the above circumstances, tell me again why you are so sure that she is not cheating now or has never cheated or will not cheat in the future when the kids are in preschool?
> 
> You may be in an open marriage now and totally ignorant of the fact because of your own fantasy. Or you may be in the future.


I cannot be 100% sure other than what she says and she is honest. I would not care that much if she did have an affair since I did. BUT if she did I would be very curious to know why it worked for her since I do my best to meet her needs and it seemed adequate up to being married. 



Catherine602 said:


> You only have yourself to blame. Given your wife's profile, you ought to be tending the home fires not running after random women. If you want your marriage to survive, work on putting some variety and fire in your sex life for both you and your wife.


I said quite clearly that I do my best to provide what she wants. Read the reply (or the extension I put on the original post). Quite frankly, people seem to write whatever extrapolation they want based on their own situations. 



Catherine602 said:


> You don't seem to know her as much as you should after all these years together. Work on that. There is enough in this relationship to offer a chance for tremendous growth for both of you.
> 
> You will not realize that potential if you are busy looking for easy pleasure. This is going to take more work than you have invested so far. With two kids, dont you think it will be worth it?
> 
> ...


All I can do is ask what I can do to meet her needs and I did do that. She appears to enjoy sex too ... so she might be good at faking (I am not an ego maniac and I pay attention so I think I could pick up if that were not the case). I don't ask her to do anything either. If she wants a guy way different, I was not that way before and it was ok with her. I would be happy to change but I need a clue since I am not psychic.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

not_bubba said:


> Yes, although it evolved into a commitment since we became married. She was also the one wanting to get married. I was reluctant. But she was quite happy it happened. So I was all the more befuddled with the changes. I wish I knew why, but I am not psychic. All I can do is ask and I am not going to ask on and on because it is pointless if she will not discuss it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are right that you are not psychic. But it seems that you did not press the issue in a way that would make her understand that her withholding sex for long periods of time was not acceptable. This is the problem.

I lived in a sexless marriage for years. Not sex once every few months. I mean no sex for 7 years. None at all. He would not discuss it. I later found out that he was cheating with many women. I would have left a lot sooner had it not been for custody issues with our son. But eventually I did leave. The sexless marriage, abuse and infidelity were the reasons for leaving.

You need to draw a line and let her know that you will not live this way. She can fix her libido, or whatever her issues are.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

Vega said:


> It seems that you have done very little in trying to find out why your wife changed and you're focused on your LACK of sex instead of her LACK of interest in sex with you. In fact, your post is all about _your_ "needs". Did it occur to you that YOU might not be meeting HER needs? And if not, hence the lack of interst in meeting YOURS...


Umm ... I stated quite clearly that I asked early (see my extension on the original post and the comment I put in the thread) and forcefully when the changes were occurring. I said I would be happy to do what she wanted, suggested divorce if we could not fix it (she did not want and said she was happy), and made it clear that I was stressed over it to the extent of becoming physically sick over it. Nothing changed. 

I try very hard to cater to her needs. There is not attention in reverse. I could live with that if the actual events were more frequent though since she does appear to enjoy sex when it happens (which makes the problem all the more befuddling to me). 



Vega said:


> Did it ever occur to you that she may not be interested in having sex with someone who comes across as arrogant? Or who puts SO MUCH WEIGHT on it that it seems that there is little room for much else? I get the impression from you that you would be quite content if she just gave you blowjobs, kneeling in front of you while you were brushing your teeth!


Do you read what I wrote or what you want to believe? I never complained when she stopped giving blowjobs coincident on marriage. I tend to complain about very little. Plus I do try to pay attention to her and cater to how she wants things done both in sex and outside. I do not malign her also other than wish she were more attracted to me. I am also not psychic so when I ask and get no reply what the hell am I supposed to do? 



Vega said:


> You're putting so much blame on HER, yet you don't want to see what YOU might be doing to contribute to HER lack of interest. You've even written that SHE doesn't want a divorce as if because she doesn't want one, YOU can't get one. And that is so unfair.
> 
> If you blame her for this much, I can only imagine what else you blame her for.


Again, why make up what you want? I know it is the net and you can choose to disbelieve me but what you are writing has little correlation to what I wrote. 



Vega said:


> You've mentioned that you have 'problems' communicating. Once again, do ya think that just MIGHT be part of _your_ problem? Could it be that she may have lost interest because of HOW you communicate to her, or that you DON'T communicate to her?


Sure, but I need some comments from her on what she does not like. I am not psychic and she does appear happy at home. I think she does not feel much need for sex and is happy with it so likely thinks it is ok for me in spite of what I said. Maybe I do not stress things enough which is contrary to your arrogant pushy perception of me based on what you write. 



Vega said:


> Before you start attacking your wife, fix your own issues FIRST. That means setting your ego aside. Instead of thinking of yourself as a "great lover", ask yourself "AM I a great lover? Would my WIFE think I was a great lover?" And be prepared to hear the TRUTH.
> 
> I'm willling to bet that you'd be quite surprised...
> Vega


Umm ... I AM NOT ATTACKING my wife. I just stated lack of sex is a problem and can drive men to look for solutions. I appreciate my wife and her contributions to our family also. I try to pay attention to her needs in sex, at home, and with our kid(s). I asked what the problems were and heard nothing other than one very obtuse comment on not having had a long-term relationship before and she also said she does not feel the urge for sex (plus she is not the type to start things she is not into due to any reason).


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

JCD said:


> The man can be a bad lover. The woman might not find it particularly fulfilling. (I am totally on board with hygiene issues, though as a man, I'll criticize her pits AFTER sex, not before)
> 
> SO WHAT?
> 
> ...


Do you really think that stinky armpits is what a woman is concerned about with a man who does not bath for one or two weeks?

Hygiene is an issue for women in sex because, you see a guy sticks in dvck inside of us. If he has not bathed for a week or two… he’s got p!ss and microscopic germs growing on his dvck. Intercourse can cause small tears which can get infected. No way in hell does a women who cares about her own health allow a filthy dvck inside of her.

And what about if he then wants a blow job? As much as I enjoy giving blow jobs, I’m not giving a stinky, filthy man a blow job. You want to talk about coming down with a stomach problem the next day… yikes!


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> You are right that you are not psychic. But it seems that you did not press the issue in a way that would make her understand that her withholding sex for long periods of time was not acceptable. This is the problem.


I can agree that I was wrong not to press the issue more forcefully early. But she is not the discussing type and I am not a nagger. After I got nowhere bringing it up about 4x forcefully making it clear I was having issues with stress from it etc. That got nowhere, so it just seemed a lost cause. So I decided to find an alternative. Obviously the consensus here is that is the worst transgression by far. But she did not want to divorce or fix it so I was looking for something to function more or less. 



EleGirl said:


> I lived in a sexless marriage for years. Not sex once every few months. I mean no sex for 7 years. None at all. He would not discuss it. I later found out that he was cheating with many women. I would have left a lot sooner had it not been for custody issues with our son. But eventually I did leave. The sexless marriage, abuse and infidelity were the reasons for leaving.
> 
> You need to draw a line and let her know that you will not live this way. She can fix her libido, or whatever her issues are.


Sorry for your problem. I gather such things do happen and by that measure my particular peculiar case is not as horrific and the twist with my wife is probably quite abnormal in the general frequency of issues. 

But in my case my wife is in an advanced state of pregnancy and will (hopefully) soon have an infant to deal with. I do not want to cause her stress by digging into this during this period. So I am screwed so to speak for a year or two from now. I do care about her. I also am quite puzzled on the rampant divorce sentiment here for couples with kids. It would be naive to think such has no negative ramifications on younger kids if the parents are mostly working and getting along fine. 

Generally speaking though, my original post was merely to say some of the women posters here should lighten up on their nuke response to male infidelity if things are mostly working. THAT did not go over well as I expected. Perhaps predictably, I also see quite of stream of odd speculation on all my supposed oddities to deserve this issue with my wife not being very interested in me physically. I find all of that befuddling since I was not trashing on my wife only pointing out some male straying can be induced by stress from lack of sex. But there is certainly a broad spectrum of issues. Most seem to want to hammer things into their own familiar zone (whether male or female) though.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

JustPuzzled said:


> I suspect I am covering old ground here but did you ever ask your wife what's up? Did you ever point out that a lack of sex was something to be deeply concerned about? Did you ever sit her down, look her in the eye and say, "This is not normal and I am deeply concerned that our marriage is very much at risk."?


Sure, I said all of this (not in exact words but equivalent) early and even more and got nowhere (see commentary I added at the original post at the end to clarify my own situation and respond in part to what many were writing). I was actually having health problems from stress due to stewing over it till I found an outlet. So I am now quite concerned with that cropping up again now that I am behaving. I pretty much wanted to split over the rapid change to being relatively sexless with no explanation and she did not want to. I probably had some wishful thinking that it would eventually just change back also. I am under no such delusions now and I expect just worse in the sex department. My cheating likely (since caught) exacerbates that too. 

Oh well, life is not all bliss. I do not expect it to be but problems that crop up can seem out of the blue relative to what would reasonably expect from the initial state!


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

JustPuzzled said:


> OK. I see that you addressed this with your OP edit and other posts.
> 
> I will ask a question that has already been answered: is there anything that you can think of that you might be doing "wrong" (hygiene, attitude, etc.)?
> 
> What are the rest of the women in her family like?


Nah, I have not changed much and the transition was started and pretty abrupt on marriage. I presume I did not smell different over a month! Plus we are old enough where our personalities did not evolve. But over the fully cycle we are both 7 years older. Neither of us have gained weight or have done any significant morphing other than being a bit older now. She is still attractive to me. 

On her family. She is foreign born and a world traveler. I do not speak her native language well so I do not have much communication with other women in her family for insight. But her native culture does put up with a lot in marriage (all directions not just male centric) at least historically. But I don't think the divorce rate is that diff than the usa now. I am a native born American but have done a lot of traveling and speak a few languages decently. I probably should have learned her language better but she does not seem to care that I did not and I no longer have time for serious study it would take.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

not_bubba said:


> I can agree that I was wrong not to press the issue more forcefully early. But she is not the discussing type and I am not a nagger. After I got nowhere bringing it up about 4x forcefully making it clear I was having issues with stress from it etc. That got nowhere, so it just seemed a lost cause. So I decided to find an alternative. Obviously the consensus here is that is the worst transgression by far. But she did not want to divorce or fix it so I was looking for something to function more or less.
> 
> Sorry for your problem. I gather such things do happen and by that measure my particular peculiar case is not as horrific and the twist with my wife is probably quite abnormal in the general frequency of issues.
> 
> But in my case my wife is in an advanced state of pregnancy and will (hopefully) soon have an infant to deal with. I do not want to cause her stress by digging into this during this period. So I am screwed so to speak for a year or two from now. I do care about her. I also am quite puzzled on the rampant divorce sentiment here for couples with kids. It would be naive to think such has no negative ramifications on younger kids if the parents are mostly working and getting along fine.


One thing you will find here is that each person gives their own perspective. Some will tell you to stay not matter what and others will tell you to divorce if your wife withholds sex no matter what her reasons are. It’s up to you to choose what advise/input here is relevant for you.

Yes divorce does affect children in negative ways very often. So does children living in a home like yours in which there is little to no affection and passion. This hurts children terribly. For one thing you daughters will learn to behave sexually as your wife does. And your sons will learn that a sexless marriage is normal. But the bigger damage is that they will never know that passion in marriage is a goal that they should strive for and that it can actually exist.



not_bubba said:


> Generally speaking though, my original post was merely to say some of the women posters here should lighten up on their nuke response to male infidelity if things are mostly working.


You apparently do not realize that over half of the people telling you that you were wrong to choose infidelity are men. Somehow you have missed that point.

In about half of the sexless marriages, it’s the HUSBAND who chooses to make the marriage sexless. Yet you seem to think that it’s only women who do this. Do you think that women in sexless marriages, when it’s the husband who chooses to be sexless, should also be able to cheat as you think men should be able to? 

Or is this a privilege you think that only men should have?

By the way, I believe that your wife’s withhold sex the for long periods of time is as much a form of infidelity and abuse as your cheating was. Somehow she needs to come to realize that she has harmed the marriage and been abusive to you. Her refusal to even discuss why she will not have sex with you most of the time is a terrible, mean thing. There is something very wrong but she does not want to give up the power it gives her to hold this over your head.


not_bubba said:


> THAT did not go over well as I expected. Perhaps predictably, I also see quite of stream of odd speculation on all my supposed oddities to deserve this issue with my wife not being very interested in me physically. I find all of that befuddling since I was not trashing on my wife only pointing out some male straying can be induced by stress from lack of sex. But there is certainly a broad spectrum of issues. Most seem to want to hammer things into their own familiar zone (whether male or female) though.


I’m sorry but it’s true. If your wife is not having sex with you, she is not interested in sex with you. Thus she is not all that interested in you physically. Now that does not mean that you are a toad and unattractive. It means either that your wife is one cold fish or that something is very missing in your relationship. If she is a cold fish there is not a lot you can do about it. But if it’s the other case there is a lot you can do. 

As much as it hurt me, I know that when my husband stopped having sex with me it was because he had lost attraction and because he was angry with me for whatever long list of infractions he could come up with on any particular day.

Start by getting the book “His Needs, Her Needs” and read it. Also get “Surviving an Affair” by Dr. Harley. I think that you, like most of us, have a lot to learn about is needed to keep passion in a marriage. Your marriage needs passion to have a good sex life.

By the way, both of those books explain things that your wife needs to hear about sex in marriage.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> You apparently do not realize that over half of the people telling you that you were wrong to choose infidelity are men. Somehow you have missed that point.
> 
> In about half of the sexless marriages, it’s the HUSBAND who chooses to make the marriage sexless. Yet you seem to think that it’s only women who do this. Do you think that women in sexless marriages, when it’s the husband who chooses to be sexless, should also be able to cheat as you think men should be able to?
> 
> Or is this a privilege you think that only men should have?


No, not at all. Again, as I stated in the post (more clearly in the mod) I was surfing by looking for insight on various womens feeling on predicaments similar to mine. SO I WAS ONLY READING POSTS OF WOMEN. I was replying in the context of the extreme sentiments of a considerable number of women to blow things up over their husbands infidelity in response to sex stress in cases where they did not consider their husbands so bad outside of looking for a sex outlet. 

I nowhere stated that men are not guilty of causing problems in sex in many forms. Hell, my affair partner was looking for a sex supplement due to a husband not into it also. I was more stating that some subgroups of women might be better served to think broadly on pluses and minuses and not expect all to be bliss. 

I think we all extrapolate too much. I am sure I do it too but blogs seem rampant with this odd trait. Perhaps it is because we all have our own issues/history and the postings tend to be all over the place and only read quickly.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

OP
I am a BS but I am trying to see things from your point of view. It seems that you have a relatively good
Marriage apart from the sexual issues. It appears that you have tried to discuss the issues with your wife without much success. 
I am not saying its ok to cheat in a sexless marriage, but I do understand the need for sexual intimacy that you are not getting at home.
What happens though if one of your Affairs turns into something more emotional than physical though and you find yourself falling in love or wanting to leave your wife for the OW?
I'm not sure if you stated if you were having sex with a regular AP or not. That is where the danger lies and once that A fog hits you then you can guarantee that your wife's needs and your children's needs will be neglected for the AP and that's a slippery slope into the unknown.

Do I think you're being selfish? Yes, but your wife is also. She obviously doesn't understand the importance of sexual intimacy in marriage, but that still doesn't make it ok to cheat.
How would you honestly feel if your wife found out tomorrow that you were cheating on her? How do you think that would affect her? Is it truly worth it? Do
You think she would just look the other way? Or do you think she would divorce you?

I understand that lack of sex in a marriage can lead to serious problems, but please accept that cheating on her is NOT the answer. It will just bring with it a whole new set of
Much bigger problems.

Please stop cheating on your pregnant wife. The emotional damage this would cause her, if she were to find out, will take years (if ever) to recover from.
Wait until she has had the baby then talk to her AGAIN. Be honest with her, tell her that if the sexual part of the marriage doesn't improve then you are going to get your needs met elsewhere. She might be ok with it, if not, insist on MC and make her know you are serious. 

Please take this with the sincerity it was written with. I'm not bashing you but just urging you to put your sexual needs aside for a fee months more until the baby is born, then address it in the correct way, not by cheating.

I have a good friend who was cheated on while she was pregnant. That was 15 years ago. They are still together but the hurt, resentment anger remain to this day. This is not what you want for your marriage!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Do you really think that stinky armpits is what a woman is concerned about with a man who does not bath for one or two weeks?
> 
> Hygiene is an issue for women in sex because, you see a guy sticks in dvck inside of us. If he has not bathed for a week or two… he’s got p!ss and microscopic germs growing on his dvck. Intercourse can cause small tears which can get infected. No way in hell does a women who cares about her own health allow a filthy dvck inside of her.
> 
> And what about if he then wants a blow job? As much as I enjoy giving blow jobs, I’m not giving a stinky, filthy man a blow job. You want to talk about coming down with a stomach problem the next day… yikes!


First, thank you for the insight. I forget some of the health issues for women.

That being said, you are also evading the issue that using 'not being fulfilled' or 'issues with my husband' as a catchall for denying sex is, in fact, bogus. I would also point out that using a FAR outlier as a husband (phyically and emotionally abusive, incredibly unsafe hygenically, lying manipulator) does NOT correleate to the vast majority of trivia that women (and men) use to justify their rather sh*tty behavior re sex.

Most men clean. Most men are sometimes supportive and sometimes not. Most men do NOT beat their wives. So...exactly how rotten is the OP acting that justifies this woman's behavior?

Cause I'm not seeing it.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Ah.

So...she's not from America...she pressed for a marriage, she squirted out a couple of anchor babies...and she suddenly doesn't want sex with you.

Do I need to paint a picture?

Unless she already had a green card, I'd be suspicious.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

I went back and re-read your first post and noticed the addendum you added.

I only have ONE question: At what point in your relationshp did you tell your wife that you found her desire for "hour long massages" et al to be "problematic" for you?

Vega


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

JCD said:


> Ah.
> 
> So...she's not from America...she pressed for a marriage, she squirted out a couple of anchor babies...and she suddenly doesn't want sex with you.
> 
> ...


"She squirted?"...
that's worth an hour-long massage, IMO.

SMV +1
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

not_bubba said:


> I was more stating that some subgroups of women might be better served to think broadly on pluses and minuses and not expect all to be bliss.


The problem is that biological wiring doesn't allow the vast majority of women to put infidelity in the basket with everything else to just weigh equally. It's not a pro or con that can be offset by, say, doing the dishes or making some money. It's the element that completely tips the scale.

So, there are lots of men just like you who want women to 'lighten up' when it comes to getting something on the side. The idea that men can do this without having any emotional connection is almost literally as old as the hills & women hear it from the time they are old enough to know about sex. (When I was a teenager, the boys were happy to let us know that we were interchangeable - 'Just put a paper bag over her head, ha ha ha.' So this info is definitely not new.)

The point is that you may wish that a woman thought the way you did, but you can't make it happen, especially if biological drives are seriously against you. And you should already know this.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

not_bubba said:


> BUT I saw more than a few comments which would read roughly, "my marriage was great and meeting all my needs, we have family, etc but I was not so into sex for a while and the bastard cheated (confessed or caught) and now I want to divorce and all is doom." The point I was wanting to make is that many men do not interpret straying the same and you should not necessarily blow things up if things are not otherwise that bad and it was a limited physical diversion.


So I just read your addendum and for me this is the money quote in terms of your original point.

Women see 'straying' as a dealbreaker. It is an excruciatingly painful betrayal that voids all other things. It is simply not possible to 'lighten up' on this for most women. It is what it is, OP. Even if things are 'otherwise not bad,' the cheating made them literally unbearable.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> So I just read your addendum and for me this is the money quote in terms of your original point.
> 
> Women see 'straying' as a dealbreaker. It is an excruciatingly painful betrayal that voids all other things. It is simply not possible to 'lighten up' on this for most women. It is what it is, OP. Even if things are 'otherwise not bad,' the cheating made them literally unbearable.


Yeesss...

There are a lot more polygamous cultures than there are polyandrous cultures (almost none). Why do you think that is?

Looking at your very latest post, I also have to wonder. I don't know the stats, but 'everyone knows' that women seem to forgive infidelity more than men.

So...why? Kids? Lack of income? Cultural conditioning?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

JCD said:


> Yeesss...
> 
> There are a lot more polygamous cultures than there are polyandrous cultures (almost none). Why do you think that is?
> 
> ...


Polygamy, in my opinion, just reflects a power dynamic. I don't believe that polygamy is a woman's choice. It simply is what it is in a particular world in which the women don't have much say or choice. Historically, as soon as women gain some power in a polygamous society, the polygamy fades.

And yes, I think women want to forgive for many reasons, including children, lack of income, etc., but most especially because they still love their H's and their hearts make it hard for them to let go even when the pain of infidelity has them curled into fetal positions and vomiting regularly.

I've read many of the heartbreaking threads posted by women here whose H's have just embarked on EA's when they were 'caught.' (Note: I've noticed on TAM that the male posters stay away on balance from the threads posted by women who are suffering from the effects of cheating.) The women are devastated beyond their description and are surprised themselves to discover that they can't forgive or forget. They say the betrayal takes up all their brain space and all their heart space and that their M's will never be the same.

I don't think these women are outside the norm. It's my experience that they are well in the norm. They will do what they can to keep their M's because they still love their H's, but their worlds have changed. They may try hard to recover the marriage, but they remain devastated.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Polygamy, in my opinion, just reflects a power dynamic. I don't believe that polygamy is a woman's choice. It simply is what it is in a particular world in which the women don't have much say or choice. Historically, as soon as women gain some power in a polygamous society, the polygamy fades.
> 
> And yes, I think women want to forgive for many reasons, including children, lack of income, etc., but most especially because they still love their H's and their hearts make it hard for them to let go even when the pain of infidelity has them curled into fetal positions and vomiting regularly.
> 
> ...


I agree with the cultural assessment.

I noted to myself that I consciously avoided most threads of women being cheated on. I'm not sure why, but one of the reasons I thought of was that I doubted I had anything to contribute to them, particularly considering my background.

Not that I've TOTALLY avoided such threads, but mostly I don't. I find it interesting that I'm not the only one.

However, considering how much 'ego' of a man is tied to his penis, I would not support the claim that women suffer more from infidelity. Just from a cultural perspective, a woman whose man cheats is a 'stud' but a man whose wife cheats....well...

What I mean by that prior comment is that a woman's choice of man is bolstered status wise, but a man's sense of status is seriously diminished.

At least that's what I'd argue over a beverage.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

JCD said:


> However, considering how much 'ego' of a man is tied to his penis, I would not support the claim that women suffer more from infidelity. Just from a cultural perspective, a woman whose man cheats is a 'stud' but a man whose wife cheats....well...
> 
> What I mean by that prior comment is that a woman's choice of man is bolstered status wise, but a man's sense of status is seriously diminished.


I wouldn't support the claim that a woman suffers more from infidelity either. I think we are so used to the 'war of the sexes,' a phrase which itself is both natural and an indicator of the timelessness of discussions like this )), that attempts to be more dispassionate are alien in all but professional circles.

One of the things that TAM has given me is much greater compassion for men and much less of an 'us vs. them' sense of righteousness. The anonymity here allows men to just talk in ways that women rarely experience, so it can be eye-opening. That being said, though, I still have 2 X chromosomes, so my experience is all gained through the female lens. I feel that I can try to understand the male perspective, but I will never empathize in the literal sense.

So, I don't believe that women suffer more. We have to remember that OP is talking about women's reactions to male infidelity. He thinks that, given certain circumstances, women should simply be more accepting. I believe that that is generally a pipe dream because that is not how females are wired. This says nothing per se about how men respond to female infidelity (an inherently related but also separate issue ).

I will say that I also often stay out of the threads of BH's, but for reasons that I can articulate: I feel like an unwanted interloper in a desperately needed man hug for the OP. So why intrude where you're not needed? Just my sense of it.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

"(Note: I've noticed on TAM that the male posters stay away on balance from the threads posted by women who are suffering from the effects of cheating.)" 

I think they are avoided because the Male TAMers gravitate toward the situations that are close to what they experienced.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Jkw4338 said:


> "(Note: I've noticed on TAM that the male posters stay away on balance from the threads posted by women who are suffering from the effects of cheating.)"
> 
> I think they are avoided because the Male TAMers gravitate toward the situations that are close to what they experienced.


I agree with you, but I also think the female threads are just not interesting to many of them. It's ironic to me because they spend a lot of time trying to mindread with their W's, but could gain A LOT of insight if they paid attention to some of these threads.

(I know that you are one of the exceptions on the board and contribute on many threads started by women.)


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I agree with you, but I also think the female threads are just not interesting to many of them. It's ironic to me because they spend a lot of time trying to mindread with their W's, but could gain A LOT of insight if they paid attention to some of these threads.
> 
> (I know that you are one of the exceptions on the board and contribute on many threads started by women.)


I agree there is a lot to be learned from them.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

JCD said:


> First, thank you for the insight. I forget some of the health issues for women.
> 
> That being said, you are also evading the issue that using 'not being fulfilled' or 'issues with my husband' as a catchall for denying sex is, in fact, bogus. I would also point out that using a FAR outlier as a husband (phyically and emotionally abusive, incredibly unsafe hygenically, lying manipulator) does NOT correleate to the vast majority of trivia that women (and men) use to justify their rather sh*tty behavior re sex.
> 
> ...


We have no clue about his wife's side of the story. That is why instead of just telling him to kick her to the curb, I and others are trying to give him some insight that might give him some help in evaluating his situation and his wife. And some tools to start fixing his marriage.

I, nor anyone on here, is saying that we know he's doing anything to contribute to her attitude towards sex. We have no way of telling. 

But I can tell you that if my son's father, my ex, were here and told only his side of the story he would completely leave out that he cheated repeatedly, that he was physically and emotionally abusive, that I supported him financially through most of the marriage and that he transferred thousands of $$'s to accounts in his mother's name to hide them from me.

I've heard him go on about our marriage and he ignores all of that when he explains that he has no idea why I left him. Now the OP might be 100% truthful here....or he might not.

So, IMHO, it's best to give him advice that does not vilify his wife and that gives him tools to fix his marriage. Or tools at least to evaluate it better.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I agree with you, but I also think the female threads are just not interesting to many of them. It's ironic to me because they spend a lot of time trying to mindread with their W's, but could gain A LOT of insight if they paid attention to some of these threads.


Something to consider.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> So I just read your addendum and for me this is the money quote in terms of your original point.
> 
> Women see 'straying' as a dealbreaker. It is an excruciatingly painful betrayal that voids all other things. It is simply not possible to 'lighten up' on this for most women. It is what it is, OP. Even if things are 'otherwise not bad,' the cheating made them literally unbearable.



Yes, ... you hit the nail on the head and phrased it much better in summary than I could have. I see I did not do so well with my original post intent on just saying in such cases that women should take a more nuanced perspective and try to see their husbands motivations and threat in a more balanced context. 

I guess I can part understand this from a woman's perspective since their bond/security has been threatened. But the scorched earth reactions I was seeing are sometimes not rational and we can all do a little better trying to see things from the others perspective. 

I think my personal situation is more odd and not of much value to most other than to see the range of problems one can encounter.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

not_bubba said:


> Yes, ... you hit the nail on the head and phrased it much better in summary than I could have. I see I did not do so well with my original post intent on just saying in such cases that women should take a more nuanced perspective and try to see their husbands motivations and threat in a more balanced context.
> 
> I guess I can part understand this from a woman's perspective since their bond/security has been threatened. But the scorched earth reactions I was seeing are sometimes not rational and we can all do a little better trying to see things from the others perspective.
> 
> I think my personal situation is more odd and not of much value to most other than to see the range of problems one can encounter.


Everyone, when they first come here, thinks their situation is unique. Sadly they are not. If you read a handful of threads on the same subject you would see a resounding similarity.
So I'm sorry, OP, your situation is not special, you are not a special case.
Simply put, you are cheating on your pregnant wife and its wrong!
Sort your **** out 
I'm outta here!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

Vega said:


> I went back and re-read your first post and noticed the addendum you added.
> 
> I only have ONE question: At what point in your relationshp did you tell your wife that you found her desire for "hour long massages" et al to be "problematic" for you?
> 
> Vega


I never told her that I would not do such and I NEVER once complained about it. I am, happy to do so if that is what she needs. The issue is more that she would rather sleep and needs *everything* timed right (right time of month, kid cooperating, right precursors, ....). This is nutso to me. I like sex and like pleasing her so I have no problem doing it in a manner that she wants. If I am way off the map, she should have made that clear early on when we were dating and things were fine. I am not the most demonstrative guy (nor is she that way) but I am reasonably passionate. But again, I have not changed much since marriage so if it was a problem before with her tastes it should have been a problem while dating. 

My sense is many women are much more variable in terms of what they like and the range. But I would not expect such huge changes coincident on marriage for a healthy early 30s (at the time) woman. 

I don't think most women are like this at all by the way. I have an oddball problem but I am sure I am not the only one with such. 

My main point is based on reading threads by women with extreme responses to infidelity by men (which sound from lack of sex) to try and see the others perspective a little and not necessarily take an extreme reaction. I suspect that is not psychologically possible for most. In my odd case, I think my wife with put up with what I did though she is not happy about it and the timing was *awful* to get caught. I am starting to appreciate she is atypical in more than one way.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

JCD said:


> Ah.
> 
> So...she's not from America...she pressed for a marriage, she squirted out a couple of anchor babies...and she suddenly doesn't want sex with you.
> 
> ...


Nah, nothing so dramatic. All women coming here are not 3rd world refugees. We met in her country when I was traveling on an extended business trip and she was having no issues at home. 

Though as most men will tell you, you become more popular with women when traveling due to the exotic factor and I suspect this played a role since she likes to travel. She was not seeking a green card but made efforts to continue to see me (which I liked since I had never had any woman go to any lengths for me before). We also were not specifically planning on kids and it happened (part to my surprise give the low frequency and us not being very young). 

In retrospect, it was clear she did want to be a mother though so there likely was a biological clock issue but she never talked to me about that either. 

Obviously, we do not communicate well. But she does not have an ounce of the American, "we need to talk" issue. That can be somewhat nice, but obviously, the converse brings problems too ...


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> I agree with you, but I also think the female threads are just not interesting to many of them. It's ironic to me because they spend a lot of time trying to mindread with their W's, but could gain A LOT of insight if they paid attention to some of these threads.
> 
> (I know that you are one of the exceptions on the board and contribute on many threads started by women.)


If I may intrude ... this is exactly what I was doing which motivated me in the original post. I was reading threads posted by women on husband infidelity to get some insight into typical mindsets due to my own issue. The extreme reactions of some to what, I would have interpreted as relatively minor in some cases motivated me to post. 

But I think you are right in your other comment that many women, by nature, will be extreme in their reactions to infidelity and there is not much you can do about it. My wife, by the way, is not such a case ... so she is atypical in more ways than one. However, she is royally po'd with me and the timing could not have been much worse. So I feel pretty bad about it though I think she should be more cognizant of her behavior as a factor too. I am not going to argue about any of it for a long time with her though since I do not want to give her any more stress. And yes, I am now behaving. But no, I am sure she will not change as a result.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

not_bubba said:


> BUT I do not do well with lack of sex. Since marriage, my wife rapidly lost interest in me in spite of the best of my efforts. She equates sex with precursors like an hour long massage, the right setting, and things like that which become hard to do with a young kid etc. I swear I do my best to please her (oral sex as much as she wants and the last reciprocal session focused on me was when married ... I kid you not blowjobs ended coincident with the ceremony and were frequent before) and she seems to enjoy things (I do not like faking) when they very infrequently happen. But she needs everything setup right. Yes, *I told her several times I find all this problematic*. It got ignored.


And when I questioned WHEN you told her this, you replied:



> I NEVER once complained about it.


Umm...am I missing something? From your first post, it seems that you DID tell her that this is "problematic" for you. Several times.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

not_bubba said:


> Yes, ... you hit the nail on the head and phrased it much better in summary than I could have. I see I did not do so well with my original post intent on just saying in such cases that women should take a more nuanced perspective and try to see their husbands motivations and threat in a more balanced context.
> 
> I guess I can part understand this from a woman's perspective since their bond/security has been threatened. But the scorched earth reactions I was seeing are sometimes not rational and we can all do a little better trying to see things from the others perspective.
> 
> I think my personal situation is more odd and not of much value to most other than to see the range of problems one can encounter.


The men here have the same scorched earth reaction when a man comes here and says that his wife cheated. Perhaps you think that they too should see things from the wife's perspective as well?


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

Vega said:


> And when I questioned WHEN you told her this, you replied:
> 
> 
> 
> Umm...am I missing something? From your first post, it seems that you DID tell her that this is "problematic" for you. Several times.



Yes, you are misinterpreting and/or my writing is less then clear. I never once complained about long precursors being necessary (massage, etc). I really do not care about that so much ... though it likely does make it more difficult to ever find time with our very active son in our small house who does not sleep so much, etc. 

I complained about her not wanting sex with me several times, and I made clear that it was a big problem for me that I could not live with and we should divorce if I could not interest her or she lost her attraction to me.

Added in edit:

I am perplexed about the attitude many seem to have that much has to be fabricated. Granted, it is the internet and there are a lot of odd people. But I surfed here for insight on the range of women's reactions to infidelity. It has been useful/instructive in that regard. But I would not want to waste my time with contriving things which serve no purpose. I like and respect women just fine -- including my wife in spite of what I did. Of course, things are told from my perspective. But again, I am not trashing on my wife and am just pointing out a lack of sex being part of the issue driving a non-romantic infidelity on my part and advising women that guys who do such in contexts similar to my own may not be interpreting it as such an awful thing to do.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> The men here have the same scorched earth reaction when a man comes here and says that his wife cheated. Perhaps you think that they too should see things from the wife's perspective as well?


Certainly. I was only tying a response/suggestion to what I saw with women dealing with there husbands. I am sure men can benefit from studying how women react also. Again, that was my motivation to browse around here in the first place.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

daisygirl 41 said:


> OP
> I am a BS but I am trying to see things from your point of view. It seems that you have a relatively good
> Marriage apart from the sexual issues. It appears that you have tried to discuss the issues with your wife without much success.
> I am not saying its ok to cheat in a sexless marriage, but I do understand the need for sexual intimacy that you are not getting at home.
> What happens though if one of your Affairs turns into something more emotional than physical though and you find yourself falling in love or wanting to leave your wife for the OW?


I am not that emotional guy to begin with and I was trying to keep it purely sex. I did become friends with the woman though who was in a sexless marriage largely driven by her husband (according to her) ... though I think she fit the more classic case at being very angry at him for a range of other things. Ironically she gave me some advice on my wife (getting her interested) which may have helped a little and with my kid. That was probably the closest I came to any close non-sexual contact ... though that would have been at the level of a lunch discussion with a friend. 



daisygirl 41 said:


> O
> I'm not sure if you stated if you were having sex with a regular AP or not. That is where the danger lies and once that A fog hits you then you can guarantee that your wife's needs and your children's needs will be neglected for the AP and that's a slippery slope into the unknown.


Sure, in general. I was pretty lucky (looked a long time ... which is bad too but I was desperate) and found a partner relatively local and did not meet much. Just long lunches now and then and I have a flex schedule. I really did not do anything differently at home and purposefully tried to keep it that way. 

I would have told my wife too if she ever asked. I am not big on outright lies ... Though I was not trying to get caught. 



daisygirl 41 said:


> Do I think you're being selfish? Yes, but your wife is also. She obviously doesn't understand the importance of sexual intimacy in marriage, but that still doesn't make it ok to cheat.
> How would you honestly feel if your wife found out tomorrow that you were cheating on her? How do you think that would affect her? Is it truly worth it? Do
> You think she would just look the other way? Or do you think she would divorce you?


She DID catch me eventually (that was in the post). I am in trouble over it, but I think she will not divorce me. I was surfing here to get more insight on how women react to these things and that motivated my original post ... more from a perspective on what I hoped might help some women sort our issues. My crisis had largely passed. 





daisygirl 41 said:


> I understand that lack of sex in a marriage can lead to serious problems, but please accept that cheating on her is NOT the answer. It will just bring with it a whole new set of
> Much bigger problems.
> 
> Please stop cheating on your pregnant wife. The emotional damage this would cause her, if she were to find out, will take years (if ever) to recover from.
> Wait until she has had the baby then talk to her AGAIN. Be honest with her, tell her that if the sexual part of the marriage doesn't improve then you are going to get your needs met elsewhere. She might be ok with it, if not, insist on MC and make her know you are serious.


I stopped of course. I do feel very bad about giving her stress also. I did zero to defend myself and told her I would do whatever she wanted and did not complain about the sex thing at all and said it was my moral failing. I will live with it as is until a year or so after she gives birth. If things don't change by that time I will bring up the sex thing again and say this time we need to reach an understanding and not take avoidance and lack of discussion as a solution. 




daisygirl 41 said:


> Please take this with the sincerity it was written with. I'm not bashing you but just urging you to put your sexual needs aside for a fee months more until the baby is born, then address it in the correct way, not by cheating.
> 
> I have a good friend who was cheated on while she was pregnant. That was 15 years ago. They are still together but the hurt, resentment anger remain to this day. This is not what you want for your marriage!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Everyone is different. I suspect your friends reaction is rather typical. I am starting to appreciate from looking around here that my wife is atypical in putting up with what I did moreso than most would -- not to say that I am not in trouble or did not create more stress. Perhaps she does realize from what was said long ago (me asking for a divorce if she cannot be attracted to me and her not wanting one but not changing) that she was not being so great to me either. 

Thanks for your comments.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Bubba - What I'm trying to say is that the female reaction to infidelity that you are reading about here and experiencing with your wife is not at all extreme. It is completely normal. It is not over the top or irrational. It is what we are biologically primed to do. It is normal.

You may experience it as extreme, but you are a man with a man's perspective. And again, many posters have pointed out that the BH's here are not a particularly sanguine bunch, so perhaps you should consider that you are dealing not only with the typical, normal female response to infidelity, but also, more generally a human response.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

not_bubba said:


> I never
> 
> My main point is based on reading threads by women with extreme responses to infidelity by men (which sound from lack of sex) to try and see the others perspective a little and not necessarily take an extreme reaction.


ROFLMAO!! 

DIVORCING a cheating spouse is NOT an "extreme" reaction. 

Now _*KILLING*_ someone for cheating on them would be an "extreme" reaction. Burning the cheater's house down with the cheater still inside would be an "extreme reaction". Destroying ALL of the cheater's property would also be "extreme" and hurting ourselves physically would be "extreme". 

But most (I hope, lol) people don't resort to such "extreme" acts. 

When you cheat on someone you cut your partner to the very CORE of something that's necessary for EVERY SINGLE RELATIONSHIP to survive: *TRUST*!!! Trust is not an "option" in relationships, especially marriage; it's MANDATORY. It's a necessity. It's a REQUIREMENT. Without trust, there IS no relationship. How can you "relate" to someone who thinks it's o.k. to cheat? How can you "relate" to someone who acts so selfishly? How can you "related" to someone if you cannot TRUST them? 

You can't. 

The reactions I've seen that MOST people on TAM (and elsewhere) seem to having been cheated on is pretty 'normal' in comparison to what they COULD do. Maybe that's because the non-cheaters are actually exercising self-control, which is something that the cheater seems to _lack_. 

Most of the time, cheating involves lying of some sort. Either outright lies, or subtle acts of omission. Lying affects our abilit to "know", which is necessary for EVERY DECISION we make. Had I known that my own exb/f believed that it was o.k. for him to have an EA, I never would have been with him. I wouldn't have wasted my time with some who has such little integrity and self-control.

Vega

Edited to add: I think it's ironic that you think that divorce is an "extreme" reaction to being cheated on. But have you ever thought that maybe YOUR reaction to not getting laid enough may have been..."extreme"?


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Bubba - What I'm trying to say is that the female reaction to infidelity that you are reading about here and experiencing with your wife is not at all extreme. It is completely normal. It is not over the top or irrational. It is what we are biologically primed to do. It is normal.
> 
> You may experience it as extreme, but you are a man with a man's perspective. And again, many posters have pointed out that the BH's here are not a particularly sanguine bunch, so perhaps you should consider that you are dealing not only with the typical, normal female response to infidelity, but also, more generally a human response.


You are likely right in your comments. I have also come to appreciate that my wife is very forgiving/tolerant relative to the norm. So I can at least be thankful for that in spite of the bad luck with her rapid change of desire for me on marriage. 

But it is ...Not Bubba on the name. The not part is, I hope, relevant


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

not_bubba said:


> But it is ...Not Bubba on the name. The not part is, I hope, relevant


Sorry about that. Correction noted .


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

not_bubba said:


> I have also come to appreciate that my wife is very forgiving/tolerant relative to the norm. So I can at least be thankful for that in spite of the bad luck with her rapid change of desire for me on marriage.


I suspect, as you suggest, that your W's reaction has been tempered by a realization that her treatment of the marital sex issue has been instrumental in your behavior. BS's who have a lot of their own sh!t to answer for can definitely be more forgiving.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

not_bubba said:


> Certainly. I was only tying a response/suggestion to what I saw with women dealing with there husbands. I am sure men can benefit from studying how women react also. Again, that was my motivation to browse around here in the first place.



The thing is that based on your OP, you believe that women should be more understanding and accepting of their husbands cheating because of men's nature towards sex.

So how does that also meant that you think that men should be understanding and accepting of their wives cheating? So do women now have the same nature towards sex as men? Why should men accept this the way you want women to?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

What culture is she from ? What happened to your affair partner ?


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## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

you say men cheat who are not getting enough sex, well sometimes men cheat because they are asses !!!

my hubby had it 2 to 3 times a week and it was fun and we did lots of fun stuff, but he wanted more !!!!!!!!!!

so he got it from someone else !!!!!!!!!!!!!

it doesnt matter why but any person who cheats is scum !

thats all


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

goodwife4 said:


> you say men cheat who are not getting enough sex, well sometimes men cheat because they are asses !!!
> 
> my hubby had it 2 to 3 times a week and it was fun and we did lots of fun stuff, but he wanted more !!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


Gee thanks. And I speak so highly of you.


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## jmb123 (Nov 9, 2012)

Cheating is not acceptable in any culture anywhere in the world !This I know for sure and out my own experience!
And let no fool with lack of any integrity and seeking support for his character less deeds,come here and waste our time.

After the act of cheating, the cheater is like a dead person with just the look of a person who was once alive.

Yes,it is that extreme! Cheating cuts through the heart of the one cheated upon.

There cannot be any excuse for it.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> The thing is that based on your OP, you believe that women should be more understanding and accepting of their husbands cheating because of men's nature towards sex.
> 
> So how does that also meant that you think that men should be understanding and accepting of their wives cheating? So do women now have the same nature towards sex as men? Why should men accept this the way you want women to?


I think you extrapolate way too much. I thought I said judge the situation in balance and I was bothered by how extreme the reaction to infidelity was even on one-time transgressions that were fessed up and things of that nature. Mine is worse than what I was reading, and the reaction of my wife was far less than typical (maybe due to her being somewhat cognizant that I am being driven crazy by her ignoring me). And I was only commenting on women since that was what I was reading by choice for insight into my situation. But the general gist could apply in either case. 

I don't advocate anything for either gender other than to keep an open mind and don't let overly emotional rage rule. If men or women are more problematic by that measure generally speaking -- I will not bother to touch.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> I suspect, as you suggest, that your W's reaction has been tempered by a realization that her treatment of the marital sex issue has been instrumental in your behavior. BS's who have a lot of their own sh!t to answer for can definitely be more forgiving.


Yes, at least if rational about things that makes sense to recognize ones own role in things and mitigate response as a result. My wife is pretty level headed also. 

I am not so sure if level-headed applies to a lot of the people posting on this site though from what I have been reading !! But like many things, it is hard to judge average tendencies from net blogs since you have a selection effect on who posts. It does seem that society has lost a lot of tolerance though in recent years (say opinions in politics for example) and rational discourse is suffering. Even when I do not agree with people I am usually curious for their motivation and will discuss things civilly without name calling etc. Maybe anonymous postings do not foster good behavior.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> What culture is she from ? What happened to your affair partner ?


I prefer not to say where my wife is from since it could get me tagged for someone reading who knows us if I am unlucky. But it is not that exotic. 

On the affair partner. I just emailed and said I got caught and needed to quit given the situation. That was not good news for her since it worked well from her perspective, but she understood and it was no problem. She expressed some concern on the trouble I was in and asked if I wanted her to discuss anything with my wife (perhaps to stress she was not trying to steal me away). I said no since that would make it worse, my wife is not the discussing type and would not want details. But I don't think my wife thought I was emotionally involved and should realize I am desperate ... but probably feels that I am over sexed and should control myself. My opinion is that she is off base if she thinks many guys will happily function without sex for years.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

Vega said:


> ROFLMAO!!
> 
> DIVORCING a cheating spouse is NOT an "extreme" reaction.
> 
> ...


You really have a propensity to read and take whatever interpretation you want and connect it loosely to what was written. I stated there were gradations of issues and the response should be thought through and balanced not just a knee-jerk reaction to divorce. Divorce may be fully appropriate depending on personalities, situations, etc. 

If you read what I wrote, I asked my wife for a divorce if things could not change, said I could not live without sex/intimacy, and made clear it was causing me big problems health wise (from stress). It got pretty much no response other than clear statements she did not want other guys or a divorce, but nothing changed. So I found a physical outlet for what was not functioning. I suspect I am only in relatively minimal trouble since it was clear I was only after sex and not getting any. But to each their own. I am sure we are both glad we are not spouses


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

not_bubba said:


> You really have a propensity to read and take whatever interpretation you want and connect it loosely to what was written. I stated there were gradations of issues and the response should be thought through and balanced not just a knee-jerk reaction to divorce. Divorce may be fully appropriate depending on personalities, situations, etc.
> 
> If you read what I wrote, I asked my wife for a divorce if things could not change, said I could not live without sex/intimacy, and made clear it was causing me big problems health wise (from stress). It got pretty much no response other than clear statements she did not want other guys or a divorce, but nothing changed. So I found a physical outlet for what was not functioning. I suspect I am only in relatively minimal trouble since it was clear I was only after sex and not getting any. But to each their own. I am sure we are both glad we are not spouses


You asked for a divorce but instead cheated?

You don't need for her to give you a divorce. Anyone can get a divorce without their spouse's permission. What you do is just file.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> You asked for a divorce but instead cheated?
> 
> You don't need for her to give you a divorce. Anyone can get a divorce without their spouse's permission. What you do is just file.


She genuinely did not want to divorce, so I respected her wishes in spite of my frustration. I do care about her and want her to be happy also. Sex is only one aspect of life, though it is important. I also thought perhaps, that something might change too since it did the opposite direction when we were married. 

Many of you here appear too all or nothing to me. Everything, realistically, involves compromises and what one can put up with and not.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

not_bubba said:


> She genuinely did not want to divorce, so I respected her wishes in spite of my frustration. I do care about her and want her to be happy also. Sex is only one aspect of life, though it is important. I also thought perhaps, that something might change too since it did the opposite direction when we were married.
> 
> Many of you here appear too all or nothing to me. Everything, realistically, involves compromises and what one can put up with and not.


I'm hardly an all or nothing thinker.

My post was in response to your comment that you told her that you needed sex more regularly or you wanted a divorce. She told you no divorce. So then you cheated.

One rule in life is that if you tell a person that you need x or you will do y, you had better do y if they do not give you x. If not they will never believe anything you say.

It's also interesting that you say that you care so much about her but then you cheat. You could have told her that you needed either sex from her more often or an open marriage. That would have made a lot more sense.


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

"Some of us rationalize cheating as coping." and then type like crazy!

Man that was a mini manafesto! haha

Ok, Now what was the question? Men and women are different. Yes.
TAM doesn't see all the problems in a marriage and one size answers fits all does not fit all cases. Yes

OK, hope to hear more from you, Thank you David


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

DavidWYoung said:


> "Some of us rationalize cheating as coping." and then type like crazy!


Agree. Though in my defense, the original post was reasonable length then I added more after the flurry of questions more specific to my situation. 

It also seem that many people extrapolate and twist whatever you write to fit what they want (either pro/con). I suspect not much on blogs is read with (or written and I am guilty of that too ... and I type fast  ) much care to further exacerbate the problem. Such is probably natural for this kind of thing. But what is really scary (if you are German I think your news has not deteriorated as much as in the usa) is that newspapers etc now substitutes blogging for much reporting to save money at the expense of quality.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> It's also interesting that you say that you care so much about her but then you cheat. You could have told her that you needed either sex from her more often or an open marriage. That would have made a lot more sense.


Agree. It would have been ethical at least.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

not_bubba said:


> (if you are German I think your news has not deteriorated as much as in the usa)


We'll agree to disagree on this point.

That being said, NB, I'm definitely not your standard black and white thinker, in my opinion. I do believe that you will often not be successful if you project male expectations or perspectives onto women and vice versa. Yes, we're all human and have much of the same basic stuff, but sometimes you just have to accept that there are different strokes for different folks and that this can show itself along gender lines.

After this entire discussion, my sense is that in your particular case your W had a less typical female reaction because she felt that her own behavior mitigated your guilt. I think that your belief that you could give women some help by offering the male perspective is well-intentioned, but your projection of your feelings means that you miss the boat. Psychologists and infidelity researchers will confirm that what you perceive to be the extreme reaction is actually the norm (and not just the norm in the US).


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> We'll agree to disagree on this point.
> 
> That being said, NB, I'm definitely not your standard black and white thinker, in my opinion. I do believe that you will often not be successful if you project male expectations or perspectives onto women and vice versa. Yes, we're all human and have much of the same basic stuff, but sometimes you just have to accept that there are different strokes for different folks and that this can show itself along gender lines.


Likely true as a general statement. But there are always a spectrum of people. 

However, my original intent was to suggest to women with an extreme knee-jerk reaction to a limited range offense to evaluate things more broadly before deciding and think from the husband's possible perspective on how much of a threat it was. However, for such women with an extreme reaction, most are likely not in a state of mind to think about much outside the injustice done to them. 



alte Dame said:


> After this entire discussion, my sense is that in your particular case your W had a less typical female reaction because she felt that her own behavior mitigated your guilt. I think that your belief that you could give women some help by offering the male perspective is well-intentioned, but your projection of your feelings means that you miss the boat. Psychologists and infidelity researchers will confirm that what you perceive to be the extreme reaction is actually the norm (and not just the norm in the US).


Probably right. 

When I first looked here, I was wanting some insight on how my wife might be upset and what to do about it even though I got caught months ago. My posting was motivated to provide some (I hoped helpful) commentary for some after reading extreme reactions on some minimal cases. I now appreciate much much more my wife's response after reading things here. But I also worry that she is more bothered than I think since she tends to say little (obviously) along such lines. I will probably try to address the issue differently well after she (hopefully) delivers in the likely event that things do not fix themselves by then.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

From what I have observed on TAM, when wives cheat, the male posters are vicious. More so than they are to male cheaters. 

Perhaps you need to make your admonition broader in scope. Men seem to need to be more undstanding about their wives infidelity. I'd like to see the responses you get. 

Instead of black and white thinking, you'll get pure ultraviolet. You'll be lucky if their jerking knees don't reach your hind parts!

BTW, the chances are 50:50 that your wife will cheat. Hope you stay in the grey zone if she does. 

You are hardly out of the woods so, don't bring out the balloons yet . There are stages that the BS traverses over time. The first is denial, they seem to forgive quickly. 

Then there is anger and rage, then questions. It may take 6 months to a year before they reach the decision that the marriage is not worth tge pain and leave.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> From what I have observed on TAM, when wives cheat, the male posters are vicious. More so than they are to male cheaters.
> 
> Perhaps you need to make your admonition broader in scope. Men seem to need to be more undstanding about their wives infidelity. I'd like to see the responses you get.


The commentary could apply to either ... was just using it in my own context/situation. It would be a curious experiment to see what response it would get under gender reversal. 

But the many of the comment in this thread by men on me are pretty harsh too. 



Catherine602 said:


> BTW, the chances are 50:50 that your wife will cheat. Hope you stay in the grey zone if she does.


I suspect you do not believe me, but I don't think I would go off the deep end over such if it was not an emotional thing. But maybe I am different (we all are to some degree). I *would* however, be quite curious what worked for her since she will not tell me and has no complaints but is, obviously, not so interested in me. Perhaps a little, "why the hell couldn't you say to me" type of reaction. 




Catherine602 said:


> You are hardly out of the woods so, don't bring out the balloons yet . There are stages that the BS traverses over time. The first is denial, they seem to forgive quickly.
> 
> Then there is anger and rage, then questions. It may take 6 months to a year before they reach the decision that the marriage is not worth tge pain and leave.


This may be common and may be your tendencies, but I don't think my wife shares that. I am not celebrating anyway. I feel totally doomed since I have no outlet and I would be shocked if my wife changes back to having much, if any, interest in me physically. So the real question for me is what to do long term while supporting her and my family. 

One thing clear to me from these posts is just how different we all are. It is probably why it is difficult to find a spouse where things work well over a broad range over many years.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I know we've said this ad nauseum, NB, but if you and your W stay together, you need real therapy for the sex issue. Marriage shouldn't be a prison sentence. Most people have options and rights. I realize it's a balance of many things that you are considering, but we just got through an entire thread discussing not just why women react the way they do to infidelity, but also the importance for a man of sex in a marriage.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

NB I see some hope here. First, you have not pulled out all of the stops to get to the bottom of the problem. 

I'd like to read you posts again carefully so I can comment about your description of your sexual problems. 

I glossed it when you talked about the cheating toleration sh!t. So we don't agree on that. But I may have some ideas to offer on the other front. 

I don't think that your marriage is sustainable if you are not intimate with your wife. With your wife's reaction to cheating and your beliefs, I think that when the feelings about this incident subsides and you are starved it may happen again. 

You need to let your wife know that this is not what you want so you must work hard on the issue of sex. 

Sometimes not mentioning sex in the conversation helps. She may stop listening if the conversation is about sex because she thinks she has heard it before. 

Start out by talking about the relationship and her feeling about her life with you. Tell her your feelings. You can say you feel cut off from her. 

You have to thoroughly get through R the infidelity first. Then you must work hard on getting her to go to therapy. Be honest about your fear of being pulled into another affair. She deserves to know so she can decide if she wants to act or not.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> I know we've said this ad nauseum, NB, but if you and your W stay together, you need real therapy for the sex issue. Marriage shouldn't be a prison sentence. Most people have options and rights. I realize it's a balance of many things that you are considering, but we just got through an entire thread discussing not just why women react the way they do to infidelity, but also the importance for a man of sex in a marriage.


More or less agree. BUT she is not going to want to go and I do not want to stress her out now since she is 2/3 through pregnancy and then there will be a (hopefully healthy) newborn to deal with. So realistically, I will be waiting a year or so from now to bring it up. But I don't want to live more or less without sex or intimacy for years again (surfed around here and even saw one guy complaining about 20 years of such ... yikes) so we are going to have to get it addressed or agree to some sort of open marriage. 

Thanks for your comments.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> I don't think that your marriage is sustainable if you are not intimate with your wife. With your wife's reaction to cheating and your beliefs, I think that when the feelings about this incident subsides and you are starved it may happen again.


Probably accurate. I don't think I can take cascades of multiple year hiatuses and all the stress (for me) that induces. 



Catherine602 said:


> You need to let your wife know that this is not what you want so you must work hard on the issue of sex.
> 
> Sometimes not mentioning sex in the conversation helps. She may stop listening if the conversation is about sex because she thinks she has heard it before.


Believe me, I tried and I did not even mention sex at first and tried to just ask if anything was troubling her (no), if she wanted anything different (no), wanted changes (no). That escalated after a few rounds of long breaks and frustration on my part with me suggesting therapy (no) and then even divorce if things could not change (she did not want to). But I never demanded change or else. This is largely because I don't want a hostage partner. No real interest or enthusiasm would make me feel even worse from my perspective. 



Catherine602 said:


> Start out by talking about the relationship and her feeling about her life with you. Tell her your feelings. You can say you feel cut off from her.


Generally, your advice is probably good. But my wife is not so touchy-feely and neither have I ever been (was raised like a machine in a somewhat odd family). So it is somewhat unreasonable to want a dramatic change from when we were dating etc. I also have no evidence/clue that she would even want such a change. 

Probably, her sex drive is naturally low and perhaps I was never that desirable to her even when dating, but she may have ramped things up at that time to match mine (normal to high range) to get married and then transitioned abruptly to what she wanted on achieving that goal. Our son then likely enhanced that. I don't think she did this maliciously by the way ... but realistically, many people do transition to more what they really want (both male and female) after being married. We were in our 30s (her early, me late) when married and though we agreed that kids were not likely, in retrospect, I think she wanted to be a mother very much (quite a good one too relative to my upbringing ... sorry mom) and she is also the type to focus on specific things very much. 



Catherine602 said:


> You have to thoroughly get through R the infidelity first. Then you must work hard on getting her to go to therapy. Be honest about your fear of being pulled into another affair. She deserves to know so she can decide if she wants to act or not.


My guess is if I give an option of therapy, open-marriage, or divorce she will pick either therapy or an open marriage. Either could give some hope for something livable long term. But I need to wait a long time (year + ?) to do this since she is 2/3 through pregnancy and I do not want to stress her out with a (hopefully healthy with no complications) newborn for a good while too ... Ah, life can be painful ... 

Thanks for the comments.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I too use to think this issue was black and white. Clear cut. Cheating = bad.

Not so clear cut anymore. After enduring my own personal hell of not being wanted physically (since the birth of the first child) I too feel like you OP. Of course leaving is the best solution. Of course it is. But it's not as clear cut as that. I will personally never leave my children. Never. I know what it's like and I will never do that to them. So I'm dying of thirst in the desert while my wife is driving a water truck saying "I feel so bad for you".

The cruelty of it all is disgusting. So I understand OP. I am truly coming around on this. When faced with the same situation I couldnt do it, but if it happened again I'm not so sure.

I'm convinced that in my own particular case it's a case of my needs just not mattering anymore. So why the F should I feel any loyalty what-so ever? 6.5 years of hell is enough.

Did you feel the same? Were your needs completely ignored despite YEARS of begging and pleading? If so I know what you're saying.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

sinnister said:


> I too use to think this issue was black and white. Clear cut. Cheating = bad.
> 
> Not so clear cut anymore. After enduring my own personal hell of not being wanted physically (since the birth of the first child) I too feel like you OP. Of course leaving is the best solution. Of course it is. But it's not as clear cut as that. I will personally never leave my children. Never. I know what it's like and I will never do that to them. So I'm dying of thirst in the desert while my wife is driving a water truck saying "I feel so bad for you".
> 
> The cruelty of it all is disgusting. So I understand OP. I am truly coming around on this. When faced with the same situation I couldnt do it, but if it happened again I'm not so sure.


For whatever it is worth, after looking around I think this is a fairly common problem. You can find exceptions and men with low drive. But generally speaking, women perhaps more frequently seem to have many more requirements for sex and have more hormonal variation etc over life. So perhaps it is not surprising that their changes can be extremely abrupt even with no health issues. But the attitude when the wife's needs are being met and they are holding the husband hostage more or less seems very awful. 

I also realized from surfing around that women react to cheating very strongly EVEN if they are depriving their spouse and the spouse is otherwise behaving and just looking for sex to survive etc. So keep that in mind if you do indeed stray. My wife had a very mild reaction ... perhaps because of what she was doing (ignoring me and requests to change which were not nagging etc). But that is clearly atypical. I also did not try hard not to get caught figuring in some contorted logic that she should find out if she wants to. THAT was not a good idea with regards to timing for me (wife pregnant) and to my surprise she did look. So at least her knowing her husband was very very frustrated made the right extrapolation. 

One other thing. It appears to me from reading online that a lot of people change strongly after marriage (both men and women). Even if it is not malicious, I think with the contract they feel (perhaps not even with a plan as such) they achieved what they want and they now drift to their real desired tendencies. The sex aspect of this with some women is likely particularly problematic to a lot of men. 

Another issue also was clear to me from my reading postings. A lot of women that do this to their husbands are consciously trying to punish them for something they are angry about (not meeting their needs, not valuing them, not helping with kids, not helping at home, ...). I don't think any of that was true in my case. But this aspect seems common. 



sinnister said:


> I'm convinced that in my own particular case it's a case of my needs just not mattering anymore. So why the F should I feel any loyalty what-so ever? 6.5 years of hell is enough.
> 
> Did you feel the same? Were your needs completely ignored despite YEARS of begging and pleading? If so I know what you're saying.


In part, I agree. But I do not feel animosity to my wife since I don't think this is malicious on her part. She is comfortable and she is the type to think all is ok in that situation in spite of what I said. Such is a defect of sorts ... but we all have our warts and this is hers. 

I also did not nag a lot. Maybe that was a mistake, but it is contrary to my raising/personality. I just stated things mildly and understanding trying to get a change first (I want a willing partner so I did not want to poison that prospect), then more forcefully saying we needed counseling/change or divorce when that got nowhere. She made clear she was happy and wanted nobody else or divorce and that was the end of it to her even with my more emphatic complaint. What shocked me is I was suffering health wise from it (started getting bad cardiac irregularities due to stewing about it continuously ... and I am in very good shape/health otherwise). I mentioned this to her in one of my last complaints and said I did not feel I could keep going on (seriously thought I could die of a heart attack) and again this was met with no response. THAT one surprised me and cemented my sentiments to find a solution which I did (which also fixed my issue confirming my stress induced suspicion ... yes, I also have the male trait of avoiding MD doctors till a post-mortem is necessary and going and fessing up that you are stressed from lack of sex when married is not a thrilling prospect). 

In retrospect, I wish I gave her a choice of (preference order) 1) counseling and serious efforts to fix, 2) open marriage with a clear understanding it is just for sex and she could look also since it was clear she did not want me, or 3) divorce. I think without backing down she would have then at least tried 1), and if she chose 2), then I could at least survive without doing anything wrong (though keep in mind attached men looking for sex are not generally popular and your wife would be if she looked). If she chose 3) I would not be happy about it (care about her and my kids) but would be necessary to force any prospects for 1) or 2) and I guess I would need to be prepared to really go through with it. 

But everyone is different. You know your wife and her traits. Good luck and I hope this helps. It is not an easy problem and there is a lot of emphatic dogma on this board. Realize also when you ask for advice, most women are going to automatically think the worst of you and that you are not doing things well (sex, helping at home, that you are abusive, ...). Most also appear to assume you lie or strongly embellish no matter what you say too. So don't expect a lot of sympathy and you will be flamed (both male and female) with any posting even remotely defending the cheating aspect no matter how you get ignored etc.


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