# Realizations I've made after soul-searching



## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

For those of you who have read my last few threads, many of you have commented that I seem to have what you consider an unhealthy predilection for sex in relationships. So, I've decided to take some time to figure out why that is, and this is what I've come up with.

I got started late in life as far as sex goes, not losing my virginity at 19. I also became a father with the first woman I've ever slept with, and then later got married. Therefore I don't have a very long sexual history, and as anyone who's married knows after the first year or so, or my case six months, sex starts to wane pretty heavily. Therefore I hadn't had the opportunity to sow my Wild Oats, as many a
Of my friends, and partners after my ex wife and I divorced, have had. And since I'm not able to experience what a lot of them have experienced, I think part of my issue is that in order for me to have a complete relationship, without any outstanding, unfulfilled desires, I think I need to experience as much sexual variety I can before I can put myself in a committed loving relationship, where sex is no longer a priority, but something we both enjoy because we love each other. I go back to my ex-girlfriend, the one who's thread I started contained info about why she won't let me touch her butt. Early on, she would wake me up for sex, and tell me that she used to do wild and crazy things. I wanted to be part of this, but she did not want to continue doing them. And, I can't, for the life of me, wrap my head around why someone who has past experience, and if you're not forced, pressured, or threatened, to do these acts, why they wouldn't do that for someone they love. To help you relate, for you women out there, it would be as if a man had tons of money and took his ex on vacations, bought her things Etc. But he didn't want to do those things with you, because he'd already done them before. Or for the men it would be as if she had season tickets to your favorite sports team, but won't take you because she had already done it, and it no longer has appeal. Even though these things will make you happy they won't do them for you. And that's why I can't wrap my head around why a partner wouldn't want me to partake in all these sexual experiences that they've had. 

So, this is what I've come up with, and where I stand currently. I don't expect anyone to weigh in, but if you do have input, it will be appreciated and considered.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Jayg14 said:


> For those of you who have read my last few threads, many of you have commented that I seem to have what you consider an unhealthy predilection for sex in relationships. So, I've decided to take some time to figure out why that is, and this is what I've come up with.
> 
> I got started late in life as far as sex goes, not losing my virginity at 19. I also became a father with the first woman I've ever slept with, and then later got married. Therefore I don't have a very long sexual history,


That's too easy. 19? You were a fast starter compared to me at 21! My wife is the only person I've slept with. Look deeper. I think your you may have had the same issues even if you had had more experience. 



Jayg14 said:


> I think I need to experience as much sexual variety I can before I can put myself in a committed loving relationship, where sex is no longer a priority, but something we both enjoy because we love each other.


Sex will _always _be a priority, even (or especially) in a loving, committed relationship. When it stops being a priority for both partners, that's when the trouble begins.

"And, I can't, for the life of me, wrap my head around why someone who has past experience, and if you're not forced, pressured, or threatened, to do these acts, why they wouldn't do that for someone they love."
I have pondered this much since it is such a common theme. There are a few reasonable explanations. Sometimes they did wild and crazy things as they were in the sexually experimental phase. It wasn't about love as much as it was about exploration. After doing some things enough times, they realize that's not their preference. Some times, they just get it out of their system. 
Other times, they did those things only by being coerced and they (fortunately) aren't coerced by someone who truly loves them. Some women go overboard doing things because of low self-esteem; once they become comfortable with who they are, they don't need this type of validation. It is so easy, and seems so logical, to take it personally, but it rarely ever is. It just is what it is. 

You're now at an age where most partners you find will be beyond that experimental stage, so chances are if you find someone "wild and crazy," they likely will be for some time. But finding that will be harder as most have settled down into their true, long-term sexual selves. Your glass is half full (or half empty, depending on how you look at it).


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

I think I need to clarify. What I mean by priority is if we're not having regular sex then I don't want to be in relationship, or I think she's cheating, or something else negative. I will be okay with the ups and downs of a regular sexual relationship with someone I'm committed to. If I get everything sexually out of my system that I want to now, that is. This is one of the big reasons why I'm worried about being 40, and not having found someone share my life with you. I'm afraid I won't find anyone who will one experiments actually with me, do all the things that I want to do that I haven't had an opportunity to, the others have.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

"I have pondered this much since it is such a common theme. There are a few reasonable explanations. Sometimes they did wild and crazy things as they were in the sexually experimental phase. It wasn't about love as much as it was about exploration. After doing some things enough times, they realize that's not their preference. Some times, they just get it out of their system. 
Other times, they did those things only by being coerced and they (fortunately) aren't coerced by someone who truly loves them. Some women go overboard doing things because of low self-esteem; once they become comfortable with who they are, they don't need this type of validation. It is so easy, and seems so logical, to take it personally, but it rarely ever is. It just is what it is. "

But see, I do take it personally. And if a partner gave me that answer, I'd call b.s. here's how I look at that answer: "When I was younger, I found a man who is more studly than you ever will be, and I just had to f*** him in all these different and crazy, experimental ways. Now that I'm older, I realize you will not be like that and you're not worth having that kind of sex. Even though you care for me, love me with all that you are, make me feel safe and secure (my ex-girlfriends words by the way), I don't feel the need to have that kind of sex with you. You're just not worth it."

How can yoy not be insulted by that?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

A couple general observations:
1. The item in bold below is completely untrue for folks who marry well and then treat their partner well. If your friends are consistently finding their sex lives are crashing after marriage - it's because the marriages aren't good. 
2. It is normal and healthy to have some minimal expectation with regard to sex, however that is your minimum for you. It is really dangerous to get into the competitive posture of - if you did it for anyone else - you better do it for me. 

If you treat sex like a competition - that you're trying to win - instead of a way to connect - you will get a bad long term outcome....

*Therefore I don't have a very long sexual history, and as anyone who's married knows after the first year or so, or my case six months, sex starts to wane pretty heavily*. 








Jayg14 said:


> "I have pondered this much since it is such a common theme. There are a few reasonable explanations. Sometimes they did wild and crazy things as they were in the sexually experimental phase. It wasn't about love as much as it was about exploration. After doing some things enough times, they realize that's not their preference. Some times, they just get it out of their system.
> Other times, they did those things only by being coerced and they (fortunately) aren't coerced by someone who truly loves them. Some women go overboard doing things because of low self-esteem; once they become comfortable with who they are, they don't need this type of validation. It is so easy, and seems so logical, to take it personally, but it rarely ever is. It just is what it is. "
> 
> But see, I do take it personally. And if a partner gave me that answer, I'd call b.s. here's how I look at that answer: "When I was younger, I found a man who is more studly than you ever will be, and I just had to f*** him in all these different and crazy, experimental ways. Now that I'm older, I realize you will not be like that and you're not worth having that kind of sex. Even though you care for me, love me with all that you are, make me feel safe and secure (my ex-girlfriends words by the way), I don't feel the need to have that kind of sex with you. You're just not worth it."
> ...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Jayg14 said:


> "I have pondered this much since it is such a common theme. There are a few reasonable explanations. Sometimes they did wild and crazy things as they were in the sexually experimental phase. It wasn't about love as much as it was about exploration. After doing some things enough times, they realize that's not their preference. Some times, they just get it out of their system.
> Other times, they did those things only by being coerced and they (fortunately) aren't coerced by someone who truly loves them. Some women go overboard doing things because of low self-esteem; once they become comfortable with who they are, they don't need this type of validation. It is so easy, and seems so logical, to take it personally, but it rarely ever is. It just is what it is. "
> 
> But see, I do take it personally. And if a partner gave me that answer, I'd call b.s. here's how I look at that answer: "When I was younger, I found a man who is more studly than you ever will be, and I just had to f*** him in all these different and crazy, experimental ways. Now that I'm older, I realize you will not be like that and you're not worth having that kind of sex. Even though you care for me, love me with all that you are, make me feel safe and secure (my ex-girlfriends words by the way), I don't feel the need to have that kind of sex with you. You're just not worth it."
> ...


Because I might hear something different. Rarely is it really "Now that I'm older, I realize you will not be like that and you're not worth having that kind of sex." More likely it's "Now that I'm older, I know what works for me in a sexual relationship. I want someone who is compatible with _who I am_, not who they _think _I was."

I understand the disappointment, and the instinct to take it personally. But we're humans with the ability to rise above our instinctive jealousy and see the difference between then and now. If you want someone who was like they were then, then that's who you have to find. But someone who is different now from who they were then is not necessarily some duplicitous, deceitful former slVt. They are just someone who has evolved and is honest enough to say so. 

It sounds like you are determined to create your own private hell--which is not uncommon--many people take things personally that really don't have anything to do with them. If you want wild and crazy, by all means, hold out until you get it, but you only create unnecessary grief for yourself when you choose to take things personally. There have been many such threads on these boards and most of the women have had reasons for changing their behavior which had _nothing _to do with thinking the earlier dude was studlier than the current dude. To insist on that being the case is only playing the victim, which itself is not attractive and will get you nowhere. If it doesn't meet your standards, move on, but do so without animosity, and don't assign nefarious motives where none exist. 

Once upon a time, I found this book to be immensely helpful. It's a pretty quick read and easy to understand. The second of the four agreements, with all its supporting rationale, is tailor made for you at this point.

https://www.amazon.com/Four-Agreements-Practical-Personal-Freedom/dp/1878424319


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

Appreciate the recommendation. I'll look into that. 

Part of this is fear, as well. I fear that because of my sheltered upbringing and becoming a young father, that I've missed out on some good stuff. And that as I hit 40, doors are closing for me. Part of me feels like I have to try extra hard, and when I had someone who had been there, and was more open than most about it, I got excited. 

I read horror stories of dudes who marry a woman who had a colorful past, tempered it with their husband, then divorce and go back to a colorful sex life. I don't want to be one of those men. And if I can get it out of my system, I feel I can be a great partner for a woman.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I didn't read all of your posts so I am not totally familiar with your story. But from what I have read here, you want to experience things before you decide. I am here to tell you that, that is perfectly normal.
In fact, it is healthy. If you want wild and crazy sex - go for it! Because regardless of what anyone else thinks - it is your life. You need to find out what you want, what you like. It is totally 100% your life.
You may discover that you like sex more than you like relationships. That is OK - as long as you are honest with the other person.
You may discover that sex with out a relationship leaves you feeling empty and shallow and you would prefer to have sex within a relationship.
You may discover that sex within a relationship is more meaningful to you.
You may discover that you prefer a relationship more than you prefer sex.
My point is - you won't know until you know and the only way you will know is to find out and the only way to find out is to just do it.
Some people find what they are looking for right away, others (myself included) need to keep looking until they find it.
In the end it is your life, only you can make the most of it. Only you can make yourself happy. If you need to search for happiness - then get started and enjoy the journey.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Jayg14 said:


> Appreciate the recommendation. I'll look into that.
> 
> Part of this is fear, as well. I fear that because of my sheltered upbringing and becoming a young father, that I've missed out on some good stuff. And that as I hit 40, doors are closing for me. Part of me feels like I have to try extra hard, and when I had someone who had been there, and was more open than most about it, I got excited.
> 
> I read horror stories of dudes who marry a woman who had a colorful past, temper it with their husband, then divorce and go back to a colorful sex life. I don't want to be one of those men. And if I can get it out of my system, I feel I can be a great partner for a woman.


All very understandable. Don't panic though. At 40, many doors are just opening. Many find a richer, more fulfilling life at this point.

You've identified the one thing holding you back: fear. As long as you have an image of women going crazy with someone else, then toning it down for you, then ramping up again for someone else, you run the risk of a sel fulfilling prophecy. I can assure you the scenario you fear is not the norm, and giving it any credence will be counterproductive.

As always, there are no guarantees, but you increase your odds by being the best you can be without worrying about how others will respond to you. Easier said than done I know, but it's best to separate your desires from a specific outcome and relish in your new journey, wherever it might take you.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> As always, there are no guarantees, but you increase your odds by being the best you can be without worrying about how others will respond to you. Easier said than done I know, but it's best to separate your desires from a specific outcome and relish in your new journey, wherever it might take you.


Thank you. Any hints/suggestions on how I can do this would be MOST welcome.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Jayg14 said:


> Thank you. Any hints/suggestions on how I can do this would be MOST welcome.


I'm afraid I'm probably not the best one to continue here. 

Ever know one of those math wizards who can do complex calculations in their heads, but couldn't teach someone else how to do it if their life depended on it? They just do it so naturally that they can't explain the steps. 

That's me when it comes to living a fearless life. As a youngster, I had some serious health issues due to self induced anxiety. After learning of the connection between my mental state and my symptoms, I simply chose to not worry any more. No therapy, no unburdening of my soul, no exercises...I just did it.

What I can say with some certainty is that the book I recommended should help. If you might be so inclined, I might also recommend some entry level exposure to Buddhism. I'm not at all religious, but basic Buddhism more a psychological construct than a faith, and can do wonders for calming the mind. 

One other book recommendation: The Power of Now by Elkhart Tolle. It is not Buddhist, nor does anything in it address your specific situation head on, but the general gist should be useful to someone in your position. Try The Four Agreements first and if you find that helpful, give Tolle a go. Most public libraries have a copy, so all you need invest is time and thought.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This post - is pure gold.




Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm afraid I'm probably not the best one to continue here.
> 
> Ever know one of those math wizards who can do complex calculations in their heads, by couldn't teach someone else how to do it if their life depended on it? They just do it so naturally that they can't explain the steps.
> 
> ...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Jayg14 said:


> To help you relate, for you women out there, it would be as if a man had tons of money and took his ex on vacations, bought her things Etc. But he didn't want to do those things with you, because he'd already done them before.


There are plenty of legitimate reasons a man or woman may have bought things for and spent lots of money on a past partner and then decided never to do that again. Life and relationships smash us around and divorced people tend to have the most smashed up lives.

This isn't really a direct comparison anyway, between sex and spending money. I just replied to that part of your post to show that what you presented as something that might insult a woman, I as a woman don't necessarily feel insulted by that idea at all.

You should try very hard to stop looking at this as an issue you will keep facing, and just assign it to the bad aspects of your marriage...that you intend to avoid in future relationships. Leave this in the past with your past sex life, and be hopeful and determined to find the sex life you desire.

There are many women of good virtue who are also extremely sexual and who have not gotten to fulfill all those types of fantasies yet. Plenty of them in their late 30's and early 40's (which I assume is your age appropriate dating range). Stay hopeful and just know that women who have a similar story to yours (only she is the one who wanted to fulfill fantasies and he wasn't) are out there and they want a guy just like you to learn and grow with. And also fall in love, as tends to happen once great sex is going on.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

There is a phrase I use with my wife as to why I don't care for a particular food I ate for years, wear a particular style of shirt I would wear to rags that I give the rest to Goodwill, a type of car I would always buy and now drive a sedan and recently she has begun to use it with me if I were to say "that was a different kiss" or why don't you buy this brand of "X" anymore... "that was then, this is now".

In essence, I am needing to accept the change that changes both of us.

Like RMY shared, fear in many forms that do not immediately threaten your life is mostly a choice... I cannot say I choose to not have it, fear comes when it needs to, but what I do have choice in is how long I keep it. 

No parking allowed, and at times it doesn't even get a chance to hit the brakes, but it's presence as it passes through is undeniable.

And accepted without a fight, it knows it's place... "temporary".

Another big part of stress you shared is "past" and "future", an anxiety that takes away today's peace and reduces the time to focus on what is happening here and now.

Apply that with sex and love and you get a smorgasbord of potential insecurity... 

*The way my wife loves me today will not be the same as tomorrow.

*The way my wife made love to me yesterday may not be the same as today.

If I want to make a non-issue into an issue, I'll begin comparisons of effort, action, emotions, and outcomes of the three (yesterday, today, and tomorrow)... and end up shot down from expectations when it is the present that matters.

If I just enjoy it and without pressure see to it that she enjoys it to the best of my attention and ability (all I can control)... an acceptance wraps us both with neither worried about controls for what happened when the coldness of mechanics are no longer considered.

Too many minds will keep you from seeing what you need to clearly.

Buddhism is about removing suffering in our lives and understanding how it gets there. I won't go too deep, but desire has a big role in it, and if we understand how it impacts us, we can make changes when desire becomes detrimental.

When I feel things begin to feel detrimental, I spend a few moments and clear my mind with meditation, especially when worry breaks my stride, something you might also consider.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jayg14 said:


> "I have pondered this much since it is such a common theme. There are a few reasonable explanations. Sometimes they did wild and crazy things as they were in the sexually experimental phase. It wasn't about love as much as it was about exploration. After doing some things enough times, they realize that's not their preference. Some times, they just get it out of their system.
> Other times, they did those things only by being coerced and they (fortunately) aren't coerced by someone who truly loves them. Some women go overboard doing things because of low self-esteem; once they become comfortable with who they are, they don't need this type of validation. It is so easy, and seems so logical, to take it personally, but it rarely ever is. It just is what it is. "
> 
> But see, I do take it personally. And if a partner gave me that answer, I'd call b.s. here's how I look at that answer: "When I was younger, I found a man who is more studly than you ever will be, and I just had to f*** him in all these different and crazy, experimental ways. Now that I'm older, I realize you will not be like that and you're not worth having that kind of sex. Even though you care for me, love me with all that you are, make me feel safe and secure (my ex-girlfriends words by the way), I don't feel the need to have that kind of sex with you. You're just not worth it."
> ...


What sort of things did she do in the past that she would not do with you?


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> What sort of things did she do in the past that she would not do with you?


I don't know everything, because she only offered some and I didn't want to dig too deep (at the time it wasn't important and I figured I'd find out, which, of course, I didn't),, but certain acts, places and capturing these events were some of the things she did that I looked forward to.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> There are plenty of legitimate reasons a man or woman may have bought things for and spent lots of money on a past partner and then decided never to do that again. Life and relationships smash us around and divorced people tend to have the most smashed up lives.
> 
> This isn't really a direct comparison anyway, between sex and spending money. I just replied to that part of your post to show that what you presented as something that might insult a woman, I as a woman don't necessarily feel insulted by that idea at all.


Thank you for taking the time to post! You're right about that analogy, because that feeling (insulted) is what I felt.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Jay you are getting some great advice.

Only thing I can offer is to just be open and honest with women early on in your new relationships. Tell them sex is important to you. Tell them you believe yourself to be sexually adventurous. Try your best to explain HOW adventurous. Think you are a full on swinger/orgy guy? Try to explain that. Less so? Explain that. I've always said Im willing to mostly try anything with my wife at least once that doesnt involve pee, poop, or other people. If thats your thing too, tell them.
Now dont tell them this in a creepy way. But when sex and intimacy do come up, be honest. If sex and intimacy dont come up, well I think you have your answer as to whether she is the woman for you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The advice below is solid and the wording choices are clever. 

There is a slightly less - awkward way to address this which is: One of the reasons my long term girlfriend and I didn't marry was that we weren't physically compatible. She wasn't comfortable being adventurous, and that is important to me. 

This opens the door for a conversation - without forcing it. 




Middle of Everything said:


> Jay you are getting some great advice.
> 
> Only thing I can offer is to just be open and honest with women early on in your new relationships. Tell them sex is important to you. Tell them you believe yourself to be sexually adventurous. Try your best to explain HOW adventurous. Think you are a full on swinger/orgy guy? Try to explain that. Less so? Explain that. I've always said Im willing to mostly try anything with my wife at least once that doesnt involve pee, poop, or other people. If thats your thing too, tell them.
> Now dont tell them this in a creepy way. But when sex and intimacy do come up, be honest. If sex and intimacy dont come up, well I think you have your answer as to whether she is the woman for you.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I read the OPs butt thread and made these same comments there:

I think an important key issue that needs to be contemplated is that sometimes the kind and frequency of sex OP desires often only happens in a certain type of relationship. Most specifically, he wants the kind of sex that usually occurs in a great, bonded, intimate relationship, but doesn't PROVIDE that kind of relationship to his partner. He wants the sex, but isn't offering the situation that leads to that kind of sexual dynamic he wants. I'm the butt thread.... he only saw his girlfriend once a week and every other weekend (if I'm remembering correctly). Maybe she would have been intensely sexual with OP if that had been in an intense, intertwined relationship. But they weren't, not when he was only available on such a limited basis.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Jayg14 said:


> I think I need to clarify. What I mean by priority is if we're not having regular sex then I don't want to be in relationship, or I think she's cheating, or something else negative. I will be okay with the ups and downs of a regular sexual relationship with someone I'm committed to. If I get everything sexually out of my system that I want to now, that is. This is one of the big reasons why I'm worried about being 40, and not having found someone share my life with you. I'm afraid I won't find anyone who will one experiments actually with me, do all the things that I want to do that I haven't had an opportunity to, the others have.


You are not entitled to ANYTHING sexually from anyone. No one owes you a damn thing, you have no rights to make demands. If a partner does not want to do a certain thing, then you need to respect their feelings on it, regardless of whether you deem their reasoning valid or not. You wont get to do every single thing you want to with one partner, and guess what.. it isnt supposed to be ALL ABOUT YOU. If you cannot respect your partners feelings, boundaries, and preferences, then you should not be involved with them, or anyone else. Stay single and play the field.. between several partners, maybe you will be able to do all those things that will finally satisfy you.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

3Xnocharm said:


> You are not entitled to ANYTHING sexually from anyone.


To which if I encounter what I did with my ex, I will simply move on to someone who wants to do these things with me, of their own volition.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jayg14 said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> > What sort of things did she do in the past that she would not do with you?
> ...


I asked the question so that we could know what sexual things she no longer wants to do. That way we might be able to shed some light on why she does not want to do them now. 

But it sounds like you have no idea what her past sexual activities really were, so this is all your imagination. At least that's what I get from your response.

There are some good reasons why a person would not want to do something sexual that they did in the past... and it has nothing to do with this idea that you have that it's because some guys in the past were more studly than you.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

@elegirl, I know what some of them are, but I am omitting details as we are no longer together.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jay,
The less information you share the less help you will get. 

Ele is trying to help you, and you are choosing not to share info about an ex gf on an anonymous board. 






Jayg14 said:


> @elegirl, I know what some of them are, but I am omitting details as we are no longer together.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

Fair enough. Public sex in front of people, certain acts with us and with others, and filming it for ourselves and the internet.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Jayg14 said:


> So, this is what I've come up with, and where I stand currently. I don't expect anyone to weigh in, but if you do have input, it will be appreciated and considered.


If you girlfriend won't sleep with you AT LEAST twice a week, you should DUMP her.

End of story. Clearly you had a high drive and she has a low drive. There is no point to this setup.

But you tolerate the lack of sex because you think you lack options because your lack of confidence.

I'm guessing because of your lack of sexual experience? In any event, she's not for you.

Low drive and you're still looking to sow some oats. You are better off not wasting your time.



Jayg14 said:


> Fair enough. Public sex in front of people, certain acts with us and with others, and filming it for ourselves and the internet.


If she was willing to do ALL of that with other dude(s) but not you then to be blunt, she's wasn't THAT into you anyway. 



Jayg14 said:


> You're right about that analogy, because that feeling (insulted) is what I felt.


She'd do it for a Chad in a heartbeat. Don't buy into this, "I'm a changed person" smoke and mirrors cause that's all it is.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> Jayg14 said:
> 
> 
> > So, this is what I've come up with, and where I stand currently. I don't expect anyone to weigh in, but if you do have input, it will be appreciated and considered.
> ...


I disagree with most of these points.

First off, it MATTERS how often you see your partner and what kind of relationship you offer her. If you don't have time to offer a full on relationship, you should NOT expect full on sex. I'm high drive, but if I were in a relationship with a guy who was only available to see me 8 days out of the month like I recall OP was (every other weekend and one day a week) we would not be having sex very often. On the other hand, with a guy who could offer a more involved relationship, I'd want to be having sex with him multiple times a week. 

Secondly, that's bull**** that just because you did something sexual at one point in your life, you need to keep doing that same thing with every subsequent partner you have for the rest of your life. Seriously.... What you want to explore at 20 isn't necessarily something you may want to keep doing when you are 80. Be reasonable.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

@Livvie, I appreciate your insight and see where your coming from. I'm going to try and have an FWB situation for a while, but should something arise where I want to be in relationship, I'm not going to wait 5 years until my daughter is old enough you know what to date so I have more time for a relationship. I have a hard time going a week without sex, I'm not going 5 years without it. I do the best I can, and if that's not good enough, I will look for someone who can. They are out there, I did it before, I can do it again.

For what it's worth, my 50 year old, divorced Uncle with two teenage daughters who live in another state, has started dating. He only sees his girlfriend twice a week, and from what my mother says, he will be marrying this woman within the next year or so. You don't always have to spend every waking moment with someone in order to have a good relationship. I've seen it, therefore I know it can be done. Your mileage may vary, obviously.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Jayg14 said:


> Fair enough. Public sex in front of people, certain acts with us and with others, and filming it for ourselves and the internet.


Thanks for sharing. It seems to me that she has evolved beyond being merely a sexual being and is looking for something more deeply intimate and emotional. Call me conservative but I think much of what you have listed above would be deal breakers for most women.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Jayg14 said:


> For those of you who have read my last few threads, many of you have commented that I seem to have what you consider an unhealthy predilection for sex in relationships. So, I've decided to take some time to figure out why that is, and this is what I've come up with.
> 
> I got started late in life as far as sex goes, not losing my virginity at 19. I also became a father with the first woman I've ever slept with, and then later got married. Therefore I don't have a very long sexual history, and as anyone who's married knows after the first year or so, or my case six months, sex starts to wane pretty heavily. Therefore I hadn't had the opportunity to sow my Wild Oats, as many a
> Of my friends, and partners after my ex wife and I divorced, have had. And since I'm not able to experience what a lot of them have experienced, I think part of my issue is that in order for me to have a complete relationship, without any outstanding, unfulfilled desires, I think I need to experience as much sexual variety I can before I can put myself in a committed loving relationship, where sex is no longer a priority, but something we both enjoy because we love each other. I go back to my ex-girlfriend, the one who's thread I started contained info about why she won't let me touch her butt. Early on, she would wake me up for sex, and tell me that she used to do wild and crazy things. I wanted to be part of this, but she did not want to continue doing them. And, I can't, for the life of me, wrap my head around why someone who has past experience, and if you're not forced, pressured, or threatened, to do these acts, why they wouldn't do that for someone they love. To help you relate, for you women out there, it would be as if a man had tons of money and took his ex on vacations, bought her things Etc. But he didn't want to do those things with you, because he'd already done them before. Or for the men it would be as if she had season tickets to your favorite sports team, but won't take you because she had already done it, and it no longer has appeal. Even though these things will make you happy they won't do them for you. And that's why I can't wrap my head around why a partner wouldn't want me to partake in all these sexual experiences that they've had.
> ...



19 is NOT late, I think getting the woman pregnant accidentally created this anxiety towards sex.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

Aine, thanks for sharing. This woman in question is not my kid's mom. And you're right, 19's not that late, but when I'm 3-4 years behind everyone else and a dad 18 months later, it severely hampered my ability to get this out of my system.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

RClawson said:


> Jayg14 said:
> 
> 
> > Fair enough. Public sex in front of people, certain acts with us and with others, and filming it for ourselves and the internet.
> ...


Makes sense, but frustrating on many levels. 1) I don't get to partake 2) our "honeymoon phase" lasted less than 4 months, which started all of this [most of my previous lasted at least 12-15 months] 3) not many women my age are going to be as adventurous as I am. If they are, I'm not attracted to them or they want something serious. Doesn't give me much hope as I near 40.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Jayg14 said:


> @Livvie, I appreciate your insight and see where your coming from. I'm going to try and have an FWB situation for a while, but should something arise where I want to be in relationship, I'm not going to wait 5 years until my daughter is old enough you know what to date so I have more time for a relationship. I have a hard time going a week without sex, I'm not going 5 years without it. I do the best I can, and if that's not good enough, I will look for someone who can. They are out there, I did it before, I can do it again.
> 
> For what it's worth, my 50 year old, divorced Uncle with two teenage daughters who live in another state, has started dating. He only sees his girlfriend twice a week, and from what my mother says, he will be marrying this woman within the next year or so. You don't always have to spend every waking moment with someone in order to have a good relationship. I've seen it, therefore I know it can be done. Your mileage may vary, obviously.


Of course you can develop a relationship not spending every waking moment together. I'm betting your uncle doesn't have the same fixation about sex that you do, though. It's one thing to desire a high drive partner who is into you (that's what I want, too) but another to be fixated on sex in a more unhealthy way. It's almost like your fixation is causing problems, due to your thought processes, assignments of motivations and attitudes to your partner that they might not have. It's like you are looking for problems.... which drives your behavior, and then you actually get the bad outcome you were trying to avoid.

If your uncle sees his girlfriend only twice a week and is planning on getting married, you can bet your ass that during the two days they see each other they make time for a lot more together than just sex. Sex probably isn't their only priority. How else would they have time to do other things together and really build a relationship otherwise? 

If you OP have limited time to offer a woman, if it's NOT just a FWB situation, keep in mind that the kind of sexual connection you are EXPECTING usually doesn't happen unless you spend more time together. Your expectations *without offering your partner the relational basis for them* are sure to cause you to fail. Be reasonable. You could pass up someone perfect for you because your expectations are out of line with what you are offering her. Relax. Find a balance that is realistic.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

Livvie said:


> Of course you can develop a relationship not spending every waking moment together. I'm betting your uncle doesn't have the same fixation about sex that you do, though. It's one thing to desire a high drive partner who is into you (that's what I want, too) but another to be fixated on sex in a more unhealthy way. It's almost like your fixation is causing problems, due to your thought processes, assignments of motivations and attitudes to your partner that they might not have. It's like you are looking for problems.... which drives your behavior, and then you actually get the bad outcome you were trying to avoid.
> 
> If your uncle sees his girlfriend only twice a week and is planning on getting married, you can bet your ass that during the two days they see each other they make time for a lot more together than just sex. Sex probably isn't their only priority. How else would they have time to do other things together and really build a relationship otherwise?
> 
> If you OP have limited time to offer a woman, if it's NOT just a FWB situation, keep in mind that the kind of sexual connection you are EXPECTING usually doesn't happen unless you spend more time together. Your expectations *without offering your partner the relational basis for them* are sure to cause you to fail. Be reasonable. You could pass up someone perfect for you because your expectations are out of line with what you are offering her. Relax. Find a balance that is realistic.


Once again, your thoughtful post is appreciated. Just to clear the air: that gal and I did more than just sex. Had a good amount of fun. Similar sense of humor. I don't expect to just go, have sex and leave if I'm in a relationship. But there were a lot of factors that changed things, and had she not volunteered the info about her past, then the outcome may have been different. But if you got the impression I just spent time with her (and others) to try and have sex, to the exclusion of all else, then that's on me.



> You could pass up someone perfect for you


That person would be have the same drive and desires that I do, I would think.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

RClawson said:


> uote:
> Originally Posted by Jayg14 View Post
> *Fair enough. Public sex in front of people, certain acts with us and with others, and filming it for ourselves and the internet*.
> 
> Thanks for sharing. It seems to me that she has evolved beyond being merely a sexual being and is looking for something more deeply intimate and emotional. Call me conservative but I think much of what you have listed above would be deal breakers for most women.


Oh HELL NO. If any man I was with wanted to bring in other people in any way, thats it, we would be done. I dont blame her at all for not wanting to go here, even if she did in the past.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Jayg14 said:


> Aine, thanks for sharing. This woman in question is not my kid's mom. And you're right, 19's not that late, but when I'm 3-4 years behind everyone else and a dad 18 months later, it severely hampered my ability to get this out of my system.


Jay, you might well be overestimating the value of no holds barred juvenile sex


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

aine said:


> Jay, you might well be overestimating the value of no holds barred juvenile sex


I could very well be. *But until I try it for myself,* I can't say for sure.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Jayg14 said:


> aine said:
> 
> 
> > Jay, you might well be overestimating the value of no holds barred juvenile sex
> ...


The thing is, at your age, it's going to be hard to find someone who wants to participate in "no holds barred juvenile sex", because.... your partner (unless you hook up with someone a couple of decades younger than you) isn't going to be a juvenile. 

People's brains and bodies change between the teen years and age 25ish. Yes, it can really take until that age for the brain and it's decision making processes to fully mature (there is research on this, it's why teens make so many stupid and foolhardy decisions, their brains aren't fully mature yet). 

It's a package deal, too. If you are able to find someone your own age to participate in no holds barred juvenile sex and the group and public sex, etc. you want to experience....odds are there are going to be other traits coming along for the ride you may not want.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Jayg14 said:


> For those of you who have read my last few threads, many of you have commented that I seem to have what you consider an unhealthy predilection for sex in relationships. So, I've decided to take some time to figure out why that is, and this is what I've come up with.
> 
> I got started late in life as far as sex goes, not losing my virginity at 19.
> 
> ...





Jayg14 said:


> I think I need to clarify. What I mean by priority is if we're not having regular sex then I don't want to be in relationship, or I think she's cheating, or something else negative. I will be okay with the ups and downs of a regular sexual relationship with someone I'm committed to. If I get everything sexually out of my system that I want to now, that is. This is one of the big reasons why I'm worried about being 40, and not having found someone share my life with you. I'm afraid I won't find anyone who will one experiments actually with me, do all the things that I want to do that I haven't had an opportunity to, the others have.
> 
> This thinking is totally irrational. You don't want to get the experiences out of your system. What you want is to share those experiences with the woman you love and have a meaningful and satisfying sex life with her.





Jayg14 said:


> I don't know everything, because she only offered some and I didn't want to dig too deep (at the time it wasn't important and I figured I'd find out, which, of course, I didn't),, but certain acts, places and capturing these events were some of the things she did that I looked forward to.
> 
> Even talking about this is a sign of insecurity. I never ask a women what her experiences are then try to get her to do the same with me. Instead I figure she has the right to having whatever sexual past she has (as do I) and I only focus on whether I am getting what I want out of the relationship. Stop being needy and comparing yourself to her other lovers -- it will only hurt you and make you look needy in her eyes.





Jayg14 said:


> Makes sense, but frustrating on many levels. 1) I don't get to partake 2) our "honeymoon phase" lasted less than 4 months, which started all of this [most of my previous lasted at least 12-15 months] 3) not many women my age are going to be as adventurous as I am. If they are, I'm not attracted to them or they want something serious. Doesn't give me much hope as I near 40.
> 
> More BS. At 40 women are super adventurous and will do whatever you want, if you excite them.


Hey Jayg, I'm going to be quite blunt with you because I think you can take it. Your problems are of your own doing, have nothing to do with what you think they're about, and can all be fixed. Let me start by telling you about women. The decrease in sex frequency and the lack of interest in experimenting is because they aren't attracted to you and you don't really turn them on. Many women will date whatever guy is their best option at the time, even if he doesn't really do it for them. I'm not saying this to be mean, but if you read enough infidelity posts about the stuff wives do with their secret boyfriends who do turn them on, you'll figure out that it is true. So the game is learning how to change from being the stable boring guy to the guy that gets whatever he wants from women. 

So how does one do this? It's actually very simple. Be the guy that women want to have porn star sex with. Women like guys that are confident, successful, in shape, etc. Know what your purpose in life is (i.e. be driven towards something) and work towards that purpose with laser beam focus. If you know your purpose and reach it you will develop as sense of confidence that radiates out from you and women just eat it up and will want to be with you. That then leads into you have many more choices with whom you want to date so you will stop tolerating women being in control of your sex life. If you can become a great guy with lots of choices you will get your needs met, and that is guaranteed.

One other bit of advice for you. I really like that women will cut down sex frequency and variety with guys that aren't exciting them. It's a non-verbal way to gauge how fulfilled they are in the relationship with you. The moment a women plays those games with me (which incidentally doesn't happen) I'd know that I need to up my game with her. Maybe it would mean I've gotten complacent and am not dating her properly anymore, or maybe it means I'm not listening to her properly when she's communicating, but I'd accept the clues and figure it out. And if I couldn't get things turned around I'd find someone that I did excite and wanted to be with me. You need to stop compromising and stop fearing losing your girl. Instead decide what you want and go get it. It's scary to do this at the beginning, but once you do you'll kick yourself for not having figured it out earlier.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Livvie said:


> I read the OPs butt thread and made these same comments there:
> 
> *I think an important key issue that needs to be contemplated is that sometimes the kind and frequency of sex OP desires often only happens in a certain type of relationship.* Most specifically, he wants the kind of sex that usually occurs in a great, bonded, intimate relationship, but doesn't PROVIDE that kind of relationship to his partner. He wants the sex, but isn't offering the situation that leads to that kind of sexual dynamic he wants. I'm the butt thread.... he only saw his girlfriend once a week and every other weekend (if I'm remembering correctly). Maybe she would have been intensely sexual with OP if that had been in an intense, intertwined relationship. But they weren't, not when he was only available on such a limited basis.


This may be the case for you, but I don't think that it's typical.

I see many more cases where the sex is hot and heavy in the NRE phase of the relationship and falls off significantly once they've moved in together, gotten married and/or have been married 7 or more years.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> If she was willing to do ALL of that with other dude(s) but not you then to be blunt, she's wasn't THAT into you anyway.
> 
> She'd do it for a Chad in a heartbeat. Don't buy into this, "I'm a changed person" smoke and mirrors cause that's all it is.





Livvie said:


> I disagree with most of these points.
> 
> Secondly, that's bull**** that just because you did something sexual at one point in your life, you need to keep doing that same thing with every subsequent partner you have for the rest of your life. Seriously.... What you want to explore at 20 isn't necessarily something you may want to keep doing when you are 80. Be reasonable.


There was a nice 200 + page post here involving this subject.

The upshot was that men and women will never agree on this (although towards the end I believe one or two women might have started to come around).


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Bananapeel... Did you read that the things OP wants to do are public sex in front of others, sex with others, and filming and posting of same on the internet???

Does that change your advice any?

There are many women who can be as excited and attracted to a man as much as humanly possible who won't want to participate in these things. Upping his game with them won't change that one iota. Nor does the refusal to participate in same with OP necessarily have any reflection on the relationship he is providing them.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > I read the OPs butt thread and made these same comments there:
> ...


I think it's absolutely typical. In the dating and early relationship phase, if the guy isn't providing a good, solid relationship base with time together, the female isn't going to be much interested in having a ton of intense sex with him--with this guy who isn't in a place to have a full on close relationship.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Livvie said:


> Bananapeel... Did you read that the things OP wants to do are public sex in front of others, sex with others, and filming and posting of same on the internet???
> 
> Does that change your advice any?
> 
> There are many women who can be as excited and attracted to a man as much as humanly possible who won't want to participate in these things. Upping his game with them won't change that one iota. Nor does the refusal to participate in same with OP necessarily have any reflection on the relationship he is providing them.


I missed the posting on the internet part, but I caught all the others. I'm just going to say that if I wanted to do all of those things that I'd be able to find a woman that would be happy to do them with me. And if those things were important to me I wouldn't date anyone that didn't do them. The OP doesn't have the confidence to get what he wants because he has few choices with women. If he had lots of choices he'd be able to get his desires met.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Livvie said:


> I think it's absolutely typical. In the dating and early relationship phase, if the guy isn't providing a good, solid relationship base with time together, the female isn't going to be much interested in having a ton of intense sex with him--with this guy who isn't in a place to have a full on close relationship.


I agree 100%. A guy has to do his job in the relationship. A woman restricting sex is a litmus test that shows he isn't up to par. Most guys aren't experienced enough to realize this and fix it.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Bananapeel... Did you read that the things OP wants to do are public sex in front of others, sex with others, and filming and posting of same on the internet???
> 
> Does that change your advice any?
> 
> There are many women who can be as excited and attracted to a man as much as humanly possible who won't want to participate in these things. Upping his game with them won't change that one iota. Nor does the refusal to participate in same with OP necessarily have any reflection on the relationship he is providing them.


There's a big difference between wanting a woman to do something she's done 100 times before and refusing versus asking her to do something that she's never done and has no interest in.

No sane guy would say the latter is unreasonable but the former is certainly telling or in some cases damning..... What that actual act is, is mostly irrelevant (assuming its not dangerous, illegal, etc.)


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > Bananapeel... Did you read that the things OP wants to do are public sex in front of others, sex with others, and filming and posting of same on the internet???
> ...


Just because someone did something like that at 20 doesn't mean that it is damning that she isn't interested in doing those things at 40!!! 

I did risky, stupid stuff in my 20s that I wouldn't dream of doing now solely because I'm more mature and have better decision making capabilities.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

@Livvie - It's great that you know who you are and what you want. But, the OP's issues are unrelated to that. His issues are he lacks confidence and isn't the type of person that a woman will have kinky sex with. As a guy I can guarantee with 100% certainty that what a woman does with one guy can be totally different than what a woman does with another, since they are different people and different relationships. I'm just trying to give the OP advice on how to become the guy that's on the other end of the spectrum from where he stands now.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

Livvie said:


> I think it's absolutely typical. In the dating and early relationship phase, if the guy isn't providing a good, solid relationship base with time together, the female isn't going to be much interested in having a ton of intense sex with him--with this guy who isn't in a place to have a full on close relationship.


Again, I get what you're saying, but I"m not waiting 5-6 years (near mid40s) to have a relationship when I have more time.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

Bananapeel said:


> @Livvie - It's great that you know who you are and what you want. But, the OP's issues are unrelated to that. His issues are he lacks confidence and isn't the type of person that a woman will have kinky sex with. As a guy I can guarantee with 100% certainty that what a woman does with one guy can be totally different than what a woman does with another, since they are different people and different relationships. I'm just trying to give the OP advice on how to become the guy that's on the other end of the spectrum from where he stands now.


I appreciate this and the swift kick in the ass. Thankfully I am not with that girl anymore.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bananas post below addresses half the issues that Jay is inflicting on himself. 

The others have to do with the collision of what he seems to want - with the notion of a partner who YOU ARE REALLY INTO. 

So for a moment I'm gonna loop back to Bananapeels comments. In short he said: sexual intensity is a great gauge of how 'into' you a woman is. 

As a generalization I agree with that. So let's turn the tables. For a woman - sexual exclusivity is a comparable gauge of how 'into' her the man is. 

The stuff Jay references wanting to do - sex with other people, putting amateur porn videos on the internet, etc... all collide with an exclusivity theme. 

Jay is very casually, and I believe intentionally mixing together:
1. how adventurous a partner is with him in a one on one - no video cameras present - situation
And
2. their willingness to share partners, make porn flicks with him, etc. 






Bananapeel said:


> Hey Jayg, I'm going to be quite blunt with you because I think you can take it. Your problems are of your own doing, have nothing to do with what you think they're about, and can all be fixed. Let me start by telling you about women. The decrease in sex frequency and the lack of interest in experimenting is because they aren't attracted to you and you don't really turn them on. Many women will date whatever guy is their best option at the time, even if he doesn't really do it for them. I'm not saying this to be mean, but if you read enough infidelity posts about the stuff wives do with their secret boyfriends who do turn them on, you'll figure out that it is true. So the game is learning how to change from being the stable boring guy to the guy that gets whatever he wants from women.
> 
> So how does one do this? It's actually very simple. Be the guy that women want to have porn star sex with. Women like guys that are confident, successful, in shape, etc. Know what your purpose in life is (i.e. be driven towards something) and work towards that purpose with laser beam focus. If you know your purpose and reach it you will develop as sense of confidence that radiates out from you and women just eat it up and will want to be with you. That then leads into you have many more choices with whom you want to date so you will stop tolerating women being in control of your sex life. If you can become a great guy with lots of choices you will get your needs met, and that is guaranteed.
> 
> One other bit of advice for you. I really like that women will cut down sex frequency and variety with guys that aren't exciting them. It's a non-verbal way to gauge how fulfilled they are in the relationship with you. The moment a women plays those games with me (which incidentally doesn't happen) I'd know that I need to up my game with her. Maybe it would mean I've gotten complacent and am not dating her properly anymore, or maybe it means I'm not listening to her properly when she's communicating, but I'd accept the clues and figure it out. And if I couldn't get things turned around I'd find someone that I did excite and wanted to be with me. You need to stop compromising and stop fearing losing your girl. Instead decide what you want and go get it. It's scary to do this at the beginning, but once you do you'll kick yourself for not having figured it out earlier.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Just because someone did something like that at 20 doesn't mean that it is damning that she isn't interested in doing those things at 40!!!
> 
> I did risky, stupid stuff in my 20s that I wouldn't dream of doing now solely because I'm more mature and have better decision making capabilities.


Well again dangerous, illegal, risky, stupid etc. is not the same as wanting oral sex or a position other than missionary. 

I'm not into screwing in cars, never was. I did in my youth to make some girls happy who needed that "gonna get caught" rush to get off. 

I certainly wouldn't do it now because it's not worth the risk of getting arrested for and possibly losing my job. Reasonableness is a factor.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Just because someone did something like that at 20 doesn't mean that it is damning that she isn't interested in doing those things at 40!!!
> 
> I did risky, stupid stuff in my 20s that I wouldn't dream of doing now solely because I'm more mature and have better decision making capabilities.


There are a couple of broad categories that are quite different (as far as most men are concerned).

If the woman did something once or twice and hated it, we wouldn't expect her to do it with us now.

If the woman did it repeatedly, hated it, and wouldn't do it with us now, then we're kind of concerned about why she would do something she hated repeatedly in the past.

If the woman did it in the past, felt indifferent about it then and won't do it with us now, then we'd suspect that her desire to please him was greater than her desire to please us.

If the woman did it in the past, loved it and won't do it with us; we're going to have a problem with that.

Some times we hear that "Well, I never really liked it but wasn't comfortable enough to enforce that boundary; now I am". Or "someone who loves me wouldn't want me to do things I don't really enjoy". Those sound to us like the woman just cared more about pleasing the previous guy(s) than she does pleasing us. 

If the woman is ashamed of what she'd done in the past, a decent guy would be okay with that.

Physical changes (i.e. tmj) are exceptions (as long as we believe they really happened).

The stuff the OP is talking about; in public, swinging, filming, yeah I can see how that might be something a 20 year old did that a 35 year old wouldn't but it wouldn't help if the woman was constantly talking about the good old days.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

There's a couple different pieces to this puzzle. 

1. If you've done something with me - a lot - and suddenly you stop - I'm going to ask why? 
2. I would never initiate a - you did that for him, why not for me type discussion because I'm not into the acquire, compare and compete thing regarding sexual history.

If my partner volunteered that they frequently did stuff with others - that they don't do with me - I would ask them why they are volunteering that type information. 

There's a type of emotional aggression - that I refer to as 'contrast warfare'. It is based on a very simply underlying theme which is that I am going to shine a bright spotlight on behaviors that show that I like/value/desire other people more than you. 

This is generally very intentional, and it is either sincere (meaning that they aren't into you) or sadistic because they are angry at you. 





BetrayedDad said:


> Well again dangerous, illegal, risky, stupid etc. is not the same as wanting oral sex or a position other than missionary.
> 
> I'm not into screwing in cars, never was. I did in my youth to make some girls happy who needed that "gonna get caught" rush to get off.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't do it now because it's not worth the risk of getting arrested for and possibly losing my job. Reasonableness is a factor.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

Buddy400 said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > Just because someone did something like that at 20 doesn't mean that it is damning that she isn't interested in doing those things at 40!!!
> ...


Thank you for so eloquently stating my concerns. Since my ex would never tell me, i didnt know if she hated it, loved it or was indifferent. But what you posted is exactly what I feel and think.


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