# Can we save our marriage? Help needed!!!



## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

Here I am. After a long road working on my marriage with my wife, I am posting a cry for help. I would appreciate advice. It would seem that since D-Day I have done everything wrong.

On 5/24 I discovered several things on my wife's iPad. She forgot to erase it all the night before.

Yahoo chat log with a man.
The most intimate possible images shared.
A sequence where she asks "where to" and is given the name of a hotel. Goes there. Is then told "room 276". End of communication...
Her ****** ******* profile
Her Cougar Life profile
More chats. There are many.

In her email: many messages from interested men.

In her photos: more intimate pics.

I was floored. Things began to fall into place. After several years of strained marriage with many ups and downs, My wife recently ended a career. Took up a new hobby. Lost weight. Changed her hair. Took more interest in her appearance/wardrobe. She was on top of the world it seemed. SO happy. She talked of how men noticed her at the store, at starbucks, on the street. "Good for you! I'd say. But then after about 3 weeks of this I made my discovery, and new the real reason for all this.

I confronted the same day. She admitted to everything. She told me that she was lonely and unfulfilled in our marriage and that her communication with these men validates her, make her feel attractive, wanted. She was adamant that her hotel meeting resulted in sitting down for a drink at the hotel bar, and nothing more. She says chatting is the only thing making her happy.

I was understanding at first. I know things were bad. I had basically given up trying after years of difficulty. I was devastated, yes. But I took it as a wake up call and promised more effort on my part. I would be a better husband if she would commit to our marriage and try with me. We spent a week closer than ever. Seemingly on the mend. However, the chatting continued, now partially in the open. I thought I could handle "just talk", and stupidly gave consent. Turns out I could not handle it. The images my mind created tormented me day and night.

Then, I went off the deep end. Snooping, scheming, back-checking. Violating her privacy and trying to catch her in lies. She became angry, defensive, and declared that SHE could no longer trust ME. She says in this environment where she is alone and has zero privacy. She feels I have set aside her rights as person to her own space.

I want to stop worrying constantly, but she won't stop. The chatting continues. She has taken down the profile, promised to stop photo sharing, but she has established chat relationships with "a couple of guys" that she continues. I have told her that before I can heal from the breach of trust she has to stop doing it. We are at an impasse.

We are now at the point where I have told her what my boundaries are on this. I have told her that her activity is causing me pain. She has told me that she needs this and will not give it up until she feels like our relationship has improved to take its place. It is her "safety net".

I feel like I cannot begin to heal until the act ceases. I hurt all the time.

HELP! What are the alternatives???


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

AvoidDivorce said:


> Here I am. After a long road working on my marriage with my wife, I am posting a cry for help. I would appreciate advice. It would seem that since D-Day I have done everything wrong.
> 
> On 5/24 I discovered several things on my wife's iPad. She forgot to erase it all the night before.
> 
> ...


Well, you could agree to have an open marriage. You already have a one-sided open marriage since she feels free to have relations with other men, this would just make it official that you are both free to have relations with others.

I would file for divorce. You have an unrepentant cheater, one who is not only unrepentant but is actively continuing to cheat even after you caught her. I hope you're not fool enough to believe she met some guy in a hotel and only talked.

No, there's no way I'd be able to look at myself in the mirror if I allowed this to continue. No way I could have any self respect after allowing her to disrespect me so blatantly without consequence. I'd divorce her.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

your wife only has right to privacy when using the bathroom. Her claiming right privacy is akin to straight out admitting she is having an affair and your prying is making her uncomfortable about it. She is sleeping around, what more do you need?


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

AvoidDivorce said:


> She was adamant that her hotel meeting resulted in sitting down for a drink at the hotel bar, and nothing more. She says chatting is the only thing making her happy.


Sorry to be the one to tell you but this is most likely a lie based on patterns we see in infidelity. The betrayer always tries to minimize their betrayal by denying sex.



AvoidDivorce said:


> I was understanding at first. I know things were bad. I had basically given up trying after years of difficulty. I was devastated, yes. But I took it as a wake up call and promised more effort on my part.


Blame shift achievement unlocked. She has successfully shifted the guilt of her actions onto you.




AvoidDivorce said:


> I would be a better husband if she would commit to our marriage and try with me. We spent a week closer than ever. Seemingly on the mend. However, the chatting continued, now partially in the open. I thought I could handle "just talk", and stupidly gave consent. Turns out I could not handle it. The images my mind created tormented me day and night.


No, your job is to always be the best husband you can be. And also set boundaries around your needs in the relationship and be willing to leave it if she can't meet those needs if it is serous enough to warrant that. Being a husband is not the total sacrifice of your self.




AvoidDivorce said:


> Then, I went off the deep end. Snooping, scheming, back-checking. Violating her privacy and trying to catch her in lies. She became angry, defensive, and declared that SHE could no longer trust ME. She says in this environment where she is alone and has zero privacy. She feels I have set aside her rights as person to her own space.



No, you are not off the deep end. Every BS (Betrayed Spouse) on this board has gone through this to some level. For some it is a compulsive destructive obsession, others learn to spot check and keep their sanity. 

When a WS (Wayward Spouse) expects total privacy and turns it back on the BS this is to facilitate their further affairs and is called *False Reconciliation*.





AvoidDivorce said:


> I want to stop worrying constantly, but she won't stop. The chatting continues. She has taken down the profile, promised to stop photo sharing, but she has established chat relationships with "a couple of guys" that she continues. I have told her that before I can heal from the breach of trust she has to stop doing it. We are at an impasse.


Do a 180 and immediately. This is your only relief for this and the only chance your marriage has.

But then you should also make immediate plans to end your marriage and file for divorce. Because seriously dude, how do you come back from this sort of abuse?




AvoidDivorce said:


> We are now at the point where I have told her what my boundaries are on this. I have told her that her activity is causing me pain. She has told me that she needs this and will not give it up until she feels like our relationship has improved to take its place. It is her "safety net".
> 
> I feel like we must divorce if we can't resolve this. I hurt all the time.
> 
> HELP! What are the alternatives???


You are being Gaslighted big time. You are being presented with a version of normalcy that is abusive and exploitive of you. How do you like being plan B? Because that is what you are right now. She is putting all her energy into finding someone "better" and only as much energy into you that is required to keep you in the wings in case her escapades do not manage to score her a wealthy George Clooney look-a-like.

Links on 180 to follow in a bit.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

180 Link

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/faq_bs.asp


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You are being manipulated and lied to.


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## tenac (Jun 3, 2015)

AvoidDivorce said:


> I feel like we must divorce if we can't resolve this. I hurt all the time.


She's not interested in resolving anything. She wants the comfort and security of marriage and all that goes with it, while she's free to openly cheat on you.

There's nothing left here for you except misery.


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## mjalex (Mar 5, 2015)

A simple question to ask yourself is do you trust her currently? Also, could you trust her in the future? Trust is incredibly important in any relationship and a lack of it will lead to pain or an inevitable end. Unfortunately, it's just the plain truth.

Now, if it's true that she's only chatting to other people, is that any different from having friends? It's important to have time away from a spouse, where you can spend time with others, connect with more people, and enjoy alone time. I wouldn't see chatting is an issue at all in any relationship.

I believe in compromise. I'd recommend, if you're serious of making it work, trying to improve the relationship and see if her talking with other people goes down. If it does, then you're in good shape. If not, then you need to re-evaluate the situation and go from there. I hope this helps!


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## EVG39 (Jun 4, 2015)

You think that you problem is that your Wife has perhaps fallen out of love with you. I think the reality is something much worse. When I read your thread what leaps out is the stunning lack of respect she shows for you. Love can be regained, but earning respect is much harder. You are going to have to become a very different man than you have been so far if you are going to get her respect back.. If you want to save your marriage you are going to have to be willing to lose it. It is not worth losing your self respect over. So yes, I think divorce needs to be squarely on the table.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

AvoidDivorce said:


> It is her "safety net".


No, YOU are her safety net if none of these relationships she's pursuing come to fruition.


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## Kitt (Jun 3, 2015)

What are you saving? This doesn't seem much like a marriage to me...even open marriages have communication and boundaries. Her lack of remorse is very telling...in her mind she is not married. I'm so sorry, OP.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

You have evidence that she met a man at a hotel, what is there to save since she is still gaslighting you and completely unrepentant about her behavior.

Get tested for STD's if you are still having sex with her, and go talk to a lawyer. She said she isn't willing to give up her other men, there isn't anything left of your marriage to save.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Divorce this woman NOW.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

To answer your question: 

WE can save a marriage. 
YOU can not. 

In your situation, there is no WE. 

The only thing YOU can save at this point is your genitals and your dignity.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Your W is cake eating. Disrespecting you and the marriage. Your W has sent pictures to OM and met up for "drinks?" Highly unlikely. 

I would look to D. You do not have to follow through with the D but it will be enough to stop the cake eating. 

Stop sharing your W.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
The choice is entirely up to you. She has cheated and almost certainly will cheat again. You can have an open relationship where either of you is free to sleep with anyone else. That is fair and works for some couples. 

You can decide that your marriage is happy enough that you are not bothered by her cheating. That is YOUR choice, no one else can tell you how you feel about that. 


Most people would divorce in this situation, but what YOU do really is up to YOU. 

FWIW, if I were in this situation, I would ask for an open marriage, and then see how things went after a few months.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

AvoidDivorce said:


> Here I am. After a long road working on my marriage with my wife, I am posting a cry for help. I would appreciate advice. It would seem that since D-Day I have done everything wrong.
> 
> On 5/24 I discovered several things on my wife's iPad. She forgot to erase it all the night before.
> 
> ...


The first thing that you need to accept is that your wife has been and is lying to you. IOW, she slept w/ the guy. In fact, w/ both AM and CLife accounts to her name, it's at least somewhat pretty likely that she's already slept w/ *multiple* other guys. Sorry. 

So... think about that for a minute. Let it _really_ soak in. She's lying. She's been cheating, and she's _still_ cheating. Additionally, she's now doing it more or less openly. Do you _still_ want to stay in your marriage?

Either way, for as long as your wife is chatting, sexting, visiting, drinking, and sleeping w/ other guys, you don't really have a marriage.

Well... unless, of course, all of that is acceptable within your personal definition of marriage. If that's the case then all you're missing is some food coloring and coconut sprinkles...


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> The choice is entirely up to you. She has cheated and almost certainly will cheat again. *You can have an open relationship where either of you is free to sleep with anyone else. That is fair and works for some couples.*
> 
> You can decide that your marriage is happy enough that you are not bothered by her cheating. That is YOUR choice, no one else can tell you how you feel about that.
> ...


...but almost never when the relationship is "opened" as a result of infidelity.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> ...but almost never when the relationship is "opened" as a result of infidelity.


Right. One of many issues: How could you trust that she's doing her due diligence to protect you from stds? 

Because she says so?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

There is no marriage to save. She is using you for security. You deserve better, and need to divorce.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Listen man. 

I'm so sorry this happened to you.

The fact of the matter is your marriage ended long ago, you just didn't get the memo about it. Some of the blame is yours, most is probably hers, and you won't be able to see any of that right now.

So don't try yet. Here's what you do. You stop interacting with her at all immediately. Kick her out of the house if possible, or at least out of your bedroom.

You go see a lawyer as soon as humanly possible. You do exactly what the lawyer tells you to do.

In the meantime, you find some buddies to lean on. You post here. What you do not do is talk to her or seek any kind of reassurance from her. Her time will come, trust me. And the time will come when you will shake your head that you ever considered taking her back after this.

This will get better. Not today. Not for some time. It will get worse. Be ready. Focus on yourself, on your children if you have them.


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

Seems as though the consensus here is decidedly negative.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

I'd say the consensus here is that her actions are decidedly negative.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

AvoidDivorce said:


> Seems as though the consensus here is decidedly negative.


What is it that you know you need to be doing right now but aren't?


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

AvoidDivorce said:


> Seems as though the consensus here is decidedly negative.


"Tough love" is the only that works, you can't win them back and playing the nice guy always fails. Rewarding someone for cheating by being a better husband and trying to compete with OMs just makes you look pathetic from the WS POV because you are acknowledging that they are a threat thus giving them creditably.

She will not respect you until you show some self respect and that boils down to not tolerating her behavior. The simplest and most effective way to get that point across is to kick her to the curb and make her beg her way back.

The only way to save your marriage (which doesn't sound like a great idea) is to try to end it. She has to want to save it more than you. She broke it, she needs to fix it. Every effort you make to fix things takes away any motivation from her to change.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Avoid,
Your screen name is your priority, but not your wife's.

Avoiding divorce is totally different than repairing marriage.





AvoidDivorce said:


> Seems as though the consensus here is decidedly negative.


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

Thank you all. I appear to be mired in false reconciliation. Currently this is what I get from my WS:

Lack of care and concern for the BS, (not once, "hey, how are you feeling?")
anger, (Wants me to "get over it". My focus on her lack of commitment is "really making it hard to rebuild our relationship)
continuing “affair fog” babble ("It's just innocent chit-chat. LOOK, here is one cherry-picked chat conversation that PROVES it!"), continuing desire for ‘privacy’, (Has ADDED new passwords where there were none before--how I discovered on D-day)
Has not apologized again since D-day. Indicating a lack of remorse. Was very remorseful, then re-hardened.
still secretive 
uses my hurt to justify not fully engaging in the marriage ("you are dragging me down with you, which is why I don't want to spend time with you")
attempts to set terms and conditions, ("I've given up a lot (in reference to contact w/ OM) What are YOU giving up?")
continues to state the BS was the reason for the affair,
blame shifts, 
coldness, (Does not seem phased by my pain and suffering, offers no remorse or comfort. Gets annoyed when I bring it up) 
distant, 
lack of commitment (Making NO promises to do better or to never stray, or "I'll do anything" statements)


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

AvoidDivorce said:


> attempts to set terms and conditions, ("I've given up a lot (in reference to contact w/ OM) What are YOU giving up?")


You've done that and more. You've "given up" contact with PLENTY of potential OW, and ALSO gave up meeting them in hotel rooms after giving up sexting and photo swaps!

Jeebus. Even if she considers being 100% completely faithful as giving something up, she doesn't have the correct mindset to be in a marriage, IMO.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Look OP - you do not have a marriage to save! There is almost certainly a lot more to this than what you know. You do not know how deep this rabbit hole runs and if this is really her first rodeo.

What you have is an entitled disrespectful liar and a cheat who claims to be your wife. Her true self surfaced once she didn't have to work and could work on dolling herself up to go forward and have her fun - at your expense!

She cannot be telling you the following any clearer than she already has (she has said this loud and clear):



I do not love you.


I do not respect you.


I do not have any care or respect for our marriage (it is non-existent as far as I am concerned).


I want to and am going to continue to enjoy myself with other men.


I need you to support my hedonistic lifestyle - one way or another (marriage or alimony).


Please stop talking about this as you are giving me a headache.


You need to consult an attorney, get yourself protected as much as you can from a financial point of view, file for divorce, expose her activity to friends and family and have her served. Do the 180 and work on yourself going forward. Only speak to her about the divorce and if she is willing to come completely clean about everything she has done (under the threat of a poly).


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

I am coming around to that point of view. Just so sad for my kids. This is going to tear them apart.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

AvoidDivorce said:


> I appear to be mired in false reconciliation.
> 
> Lack of care and concern for the BS, (not once, "hey, how are you feeling?")
> 
> ...


Okay, as a woman I'm putting my two cents in here, for what it's worth. Your wife has less-than-zero respect for you. She's not only sh!tting all over you, she's rubbing your face in it.

Hurt? Sure, I understand your hurt. But it's time for your ANGER to trump your hurt.

This is disgusting. She is f^cking one guy at least. And she's using you because it's her comfort zone. House. Car. Does she work? Does she contribute to the family expenses?

Doesn't sound like it to me.

So as a woman I'm telling you to (1) see a good family law attorney, (2) get into the Coping With Infidelity forum on TAM to get advice from those who can give you the low-down on how to proceed, (3) move into another bedroom, and, (4) quit discussing anything with her for the time being.

Get your ducks in a row. And get madder than he!!. You deserve to. Seriously. As in right now.


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## AvoidDivorce (Jun 10, 2015)

Prodigal said:


> Okay, as a woman I'm putting my two cents in here, for what it's worth. Your wife has less-than-zero respect for you. She's not only sh!tting all over you, she's rubbing your face in it.
> 
> Hurt? Sure, I understand your hurt. But it's time for your ANGER to trump your hurt.
> 
> ...


Agreed. I need help getting past being the one to switch bedrooms though. Why should I be in the damn guestroom? She is the one that cheated! Let her f*cking move!

The latest is this: "I want to seperate. I will continue to chat with guys until I feel like our marriage is stabilized. Then I will quit."

Are you serious? You will continue to cheat until our marriage is stabilized? That is insane talk!

Oh, and she just quit her job 2 weeks ago. It was planned for her to stay home with the kids. Guess she'll be needing that back.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

AvoidDivorce said:


> Agreed. I need help getting past being the one to switch bedrooms though. Why should I be in the damn guestroom? She is the one that cheated! Let her f*cking move!
> 
> The latest is this: "I want to seperate. I will continue to chat with guys until I feel like our marriage is stabilized. Then I will quit."
> 
> ...


Go buy a key lock for your bedroom door. The next time you're home and she's not, install it and move all her stuff to the guest room, then keep your bedroom locked any time you're not in it.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

AvoidDivorce said:


> Agreed. I need help getting past being the one to switch bedrooms though. Why should I be in the damn guestroom? She is the one that cheated! Let her f*cking move!


Agreed.



AvoidDivorce said:


> The latest is this: "I want to seperate. I will continue to chat with guys until I feel like our marriage is stabilized. Then I will quit."
> 
> Are you serious? You will continue to cheat until our marriage is stabilized? That is insane talk!


LOL. What a load of absolute bullsh*t. So glad to hear that you're not falling for it; you'd be surprised to read what some folks will put up with.



AvoidDivorce said:


> Oh, and she just quit her job 2 weeks ago. It was planned for her to stay home with the kids. Guess she'll be needing that back.


Yep!


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

You could play her at her own game, set up a profile and start chatting with females, I know that this is probably far away from your nature though (usually the case with couples where one has no boundaries at all).
You could get the divorce papers ready and you must be willing to leave the marriage. Tell her you do not want to, you know that you are partly responsible for her feeling the way she does but if the marriage is to work, there must be total commitment from both parties. 

She is pushing you to see how much crap you will take, set the boundaries now. Women tend to do this to see if the H will prove his worth after years of not pulling his weight.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

ABSOLUTELY agree w/Nuckin' on this. Kick her a$$ out of YOUR bedroom. Get a good attorney. Prepare divorce papers.

This woman is so blatant, it's disgusting. And she just quit her job?

One question: How long have you been married? If it's more than 10 years, I have the feeling she has been planning the move to quit working.

After all, a marriage of "longevity" (according to the courts) is one of 10-plus years. That means you would take a hit financially.

Something is telling me she set you up. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Get this wh0re out of your life. It will cost you, but being free of her would be worth it.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

In some states, alimony is based on income discrepancy over the previous year, not prior years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

If you put a keylock on the master bedroom door, make sure that you also purchase a VAR (voice activated recorder). Have it on you when she is home. Why? Because she will react one of two ways.. 1) accept it or 2) go bat sh!t crazy. If she goes bat sh!t crazy things could get out of hand. Make sure that you stay very calm and let her go nuts. Get it on recording. If she physically threatens you or hits you, calmly dial 911. Get her removed from the house. But you have to be on your best behavior.

Also, see an attorney before you do this, get things set up so that she cannot take the children an move out.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Sorry you're here, AD, but your post is encouraging. Too many betrayed spouses try to hang to the memory of their cheating spouse and their marriage as it used to be.



AvoidDivorce said:


> Agreed. I need help getting past being the one to switch bedrooms though. Why should I be in the damn guestroom? She is the one that cheated! Let her f*cking move!
> 
> The latest is this: "I want to seperate. I will continue to chat with guys until I feel like our marriage is stabilized. Then I will quit."
> 
> ...


I'm sure, in her plan separation will involve you moving out, paying for everything and being her free babysitter when she wants to continue her sexcapades.

You have to see a family lawyer (several in fact, because every one that you consult with won't be able to be retained by your wife). Find out what you rights are and how adultery effects divorce in your country/state. In most places adultery can be a reason for a divorce but won't effect the division of assets or custody. Do no expect restitution for her cheating and blowing up the family.

As a general principle (depending on where you live), each parent has 100% custody. For instance, if I want to take my son on 1 month surfing holiday, I can. And I don't need my wife's permission to do it. However once divorce is filed the status quo needs to be maintained - the kids have to stay in the family home, keep going to the same school, etc. - until custody has been formally agreed. 

So, protect yourself and your children by consulting with a shark lawyer. Do not tell your wife what you are doing/planning. She is now your adversary. Best of luck.


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## IamSomebody (Nov 21, 2014)

Prodigal said:


> ABSOLUTELY agree w/Nuckin' on this. Kick her a$$ out of YOUR bedroom. Get a good attorney. Prepare divorce papers.
> 
> This woman is so blatant, it's disgusting. And she just quit her job?
> 
> ...


It seems you W quit her job because she is setting you up to pay her a* LOT *of alimony.

IamSomebody


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

AvoidDivorce said:


> I was floored. Things began to fall into place. After several years of strained marriage with many ups and downs, My wife recently ended a career. Took up a new hobby. Lost weight. Changed her hair. Took more interest in her appearance/wardrobe. She was on top of the world it seemed. SO happy. She talked of how men noticed her at the store, at starbucks, on the street. "Good for you! I'd say. But then after about 3 weeks of this I made my discovery, and new the real reason for all this.
> 
> I confronted the same day. She admitted to everything. *She told me that she was lonely and unfulfilled in our marriage and that her communication with these men validates her, make her feel attractive, wanted.* She was adamant that her hotel meeting resulted in sitting down for a drink at the hotel bar, and nothing more. She says chatting is the only thing making her happy.


I'm not a therapist, but if I didn't know any better, I'd say your wife is an HPD with very strong tendencies toward narcissism. Why do I say that? Because your wife's behavior and justification was EXACTLY my reasoning before I got help. HPDs seek out validation through others. HPDs tend to have exceptionally low feelings of self esteem and only through the attnetion of others do they fulfill that need.

Unfortunately, more often than not, folks with personality disorders go through life never even knowing they have a problem. The way they see it...it's the rest of the world with the problem.

In the remote chance that your marriage can be salvaged, your wife must seek IC and actively work on it. Unless that happens, I'm afraid your marriage is over. I'm very sorry she is subjecting you to this kind of treatment my friend.


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## tryingpatience (May 7, 2014)

Sorry that you are here but glad to hear that you've come around and you're not falling for any of her crap.

Do what you need to do to protect your kids. How do you do that? Work on making yourself strong. The stronger you are the better they'll be. You can't take care of anyone else until you take care of yourself first. Consult a lawyer. Do the 180 and detach. Do it now and don't look back.


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