# Crossroads: Sink or Swim



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Old thread 
Is this Normal to Fell this Way?

This is what she left me this morning in a letter:
"Also you mentioned talking to some one. I'm not ready for that but once this is over (divorce) If you want to take me out and date - See if that flame can get burning again. I would like that. Up to you though. Love, (W)"

We had to amend the marital dissolution page to be more specific on property division. We rugswept for years. Instead of temporarily hurting the others feelings, we bottled everything up and turned into resentment. Obviously we can not work through our issues or we would not be where we are. There are several issues, I know on my end, that are deal breakers. I can't see how we could rectify them post-D when we couldn't during the M. I recommended MC from the beginning. She does not wish to go. I am all in favor of having the D because this M has been dead awhile. But speaking with someone about it could lead to a few breakthroughs and maybe a re-birth as the D approaches. But dating after D, same issues will be there. And up until now she has not even started packing things up to leave. The D should be final by end of January. I think her thoughts may be she will remain at the house after the D. Things do not work that way. Would there be anyone who could offer ways for me to approach her about why we need to start turning the wheels now instead of post-D? We may not be able to save it but at least we would know as we walk to the courthouse one final time.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/61735-normal-fell-way.html


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

well my response was: I have one non-negotiable, professional couples counseling. I actually have more but they would be addressed in FCC.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Weird, man, but not abnormal. I feel for you. 

Got similar mixed messages from mine. She wanted D. I filled out papers and gave ring back. 

She was distraught. I asked why. "Cuz now it's getting real". 

She said she was gonna move out Sat after Thanksgiving. Looked online at apts for month+. Only chose one the day I served her. 

She didn't pack a thing until the day before the move. 

She wouldn't go to MC either. Now is texting and emailing me all night. Wanted to sleep over Xmas eve. 

If the marriage has been dead, why would you want to date?


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Why would she wait for divorce if she still has ample time to reignite something now?

I wouldn't get my hopes up. If she wanted to make things work she'd be planning/lining up dates and booking counseling sessions herself. 

Did she respond to your couple's therapy suggestion?

I think she's fishing for the Old Chuck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> Why would she wait for divorce if she still has ample time to reignite something now?


Better yet, if you agree to date her after D, why would she want to make M work? 

M is hard. Dating is fun.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Zillard-We both admit we still love each other but she wanted freedom, wanted out, felt trapped and I was wanting to fix things; things which were never ever brought up before. She refused and wanted us to live as a couple and do our own thing and I said 'not gonna happen" and I dropped the D. I will not play man and wife in the kitchen and eat at different tables in the den.

Mine said she was going to start moving things out over Thanksgiving too LOL
I don't know if mine is looking at apt's or not. None of my concern. I was grief stricken for awhile but I am past that now. I don't want to say I am cold as ice but I'm in the neighborhood. 

The M was dead in terms of communication and affection. They can be easily resolved in FCC/MC if she would go. That is why I will not back down from that. There is still love between us and the sad thing is, there probably always will be. But I will not return to the way things were. We are both stubborn, she read the book on it. Sad thing is, I wrote the book. No FCC/MC....no dates after D is final. Give me ETA on when you will be out and ummm....no dates. If you can't solve issues when M, what makes you think you can post-D? Not logical thinking.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Are you enforcing a move out date or some type of time-span?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

I get it. Still feelings between us too. Undeniable. And our communication issues could easily be solved with a little work. Why is she unwilling do ya think? Confident no posOM?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Reg-We spent 15 years together. Some good, some bad. There was always love throughout it all. Her family's way of solving problems is running from them. Her son needs rehab in a bad way, she does as well (see posts about the dogs). 
I left the non-negotiable (this afternoon) on the same piece of paper she wrote her comments on. She is not the type to seek out FCC/MC. To be honest, I used to be that way years ago. But if the two can't reach an agreement, outside help should be sought. I also added to my non-negotiable "before the D is final."

Well no need to fish, Chuck's here. Chuck wants it to work but Chuck has the one N-N because that will put us in a situation where everything else can be brought up.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Reg-She will remain here until D is final. I assume the judge will ask her if she can be out within thirty days or whatever. She may think she can remain here and play the let's date game. Be a cold day in he!! when that happens. Unless there is an effort to see FCC/MC during the D lead-up, there will not be any effort on my end after it if through. It is quite impossible to see a MC when you're ummmmm already divorced. If she wanted to blow smoke up my a$$ she probably could have a month ago. Not any longer. 

I will go see the people at the non-denominational church for my benefit. I talk to my IC/best friend over 20 years for my other counseling. I have opened up avenues but I will close them too if they are not used. I would have to see a great deal of progress before the D is final or I will turn and walk away.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Zillard-About three weeks ago, I let her go. Since then she is home after work every night. I have not entertained the thoughts of another person because her walking out on the marriage was the ultimate betrayal. As for a possible OM, that would be addressed in PCC/MC. She joined two dating sites and became a paying member, knowing since I handle the finances I would see it. I actually got a chuckle out of it. It would be addressed in PCC/MC, that's a sure bet. I saw her pic, the deer in the headlights look, desperation....I felt pity. This is what I mean when I tell others let them watch their spouse drown and you take high water. This PCC/MC is her lifeline. If it is not taken. The game is over. Will she return a short time down the road, you can bet the farm. But that will be after time has passed and....feelings have changed. I could be starting a new thing with someone and it may look promising. Why would I wish to return to someone who gave up after 15 years and would not even try to work it out as the end date approached?


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> Zillard-About three weeks ago, I let her go. Since then she is home after work every night.


Exact same thing here. As soon as I started filling out papers she suddenly came home on time. Every night. But wouldn't say a peep about it. Just started acting like all was back to normal. Probably expecting me to rugsweep. Which I was naively prepared to do before, but not then. She requested I fill them out. Demanded it. So I did, to her surprise.



Chuck71 said:


> I have not entertained the thoughts of another person because her walking out on the marriage was the ultimate betrayal.


Yep. Her giving up hurt more than anything. 



Chuck71 said:


> I felt pity. This is what I mean when I tell others let them watch their spouse drown and you take high water. This PCC/MC is her lifeline. If it is not taken. The game is over.


stbxw went to one session with me. Refused to go further. I still go weekly. Stronger each time.



Chuck71 said:


> Will she return a short time down the road, you can bet the farm. But that will be after time has passed and....feelings have changed. I could be starting a new thing with someone and it may look promising. Why would I wish to return to someone who gave up after 15 years and would not even try to work it out as the end date approached?


I fully expect this too. She's out since Saturday. Texting/emailing me multiple times a night. Every night. Not quite trying to come back yet, but clock is tickin. 60 day wait is up on Valentines Day.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Zillard-Since you have children, my heart goes out to you. If we had children together I would approach this different. My earlier post I tagged on box #2 goes into more detail. I would like for things to work out between us but I have the N/N and that would help bring out everything else. She can read me like a book, after all these years you expect it, and she knows, things have changed. I had two previous loves and I have posted this somewhere, maybe LIS' thread, but after we broke up and got back together, things never really were the same. But I always showed kindness (well 98%) and they both returned after the last break up. But for one, it was past too late and the other, I never had the feelings I did in the past. She wasn't 'the one', it was more like 'just another girlfriend you don't see a future with.' After the D and no effort on PCC/MC....I can see the very same thing occurring. But if she does not want to try when we were married, why should she after D? In a perfect world, she would move mountains to try and rectify things and maybe....have the D one morning and re-new our vows later that day (yes you can re-marry same spouse you just D the very same day, others must wait 30 days) but I ain't holding my breath! I left it out there, all I can do.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

yeah mine and her family are rug sweepers to.
she was crazy with depression and loneliness for 18 mths yet told me right through everything was cool until she gave me a separation letter.
since she moved out 10 wks ago , her signals are everywhere but today , they were different and it doesn't look good.
it seems very common for them to be all over the place even with you guys.

i dunno chuck, if she's thinking that ahead then why is she touching divorce right now . why not stop it for now and maybe just live separately for 6 or 12mths .
she sounds like she's definitely not given up despite her other stuff . she sounds like she holds hope for later , just not right now, yet !

but then hey what the fk would i know i can't even read my own wife right now let alone yours but it does sound like that to me . i dunno , that's just a very contradicting letter. 

maybe she's thinking more just break , space , clear head , emotions , come back clean and try again.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> maybe she's thinking more just break , space , clear head , emotions , come back clean and try again.


I suggested separation at first, but pulled it off the table. I said I wouldn't agree to it as she said she wanted to date during (not me). She eventually confessed to only wanting it to "ease you out of the marriage". 

Then days before move out she said all she wanted was separation. Silly as she could have left at any time without my permission.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

zillard said:


> I suggested separation at first, but pulled it off the table. I said I wouldn't agree to it as she said she wanted to date during (not me). She eventually confessed to only wanting it to "ease you out of the marriage".
> 
> Then days before move out she said all she wanted was separation. Silly as she could have left at any time without my permission.



oh [email protected] yea z i've read yours , she's a doosey . i don't think she really wanted to divorce or anything though , just a breather. i thought before mine shot through i'd just like a breather myself - hu so much for that , got a breather alright.

in your latest stuff it does sound like she wants to seriously try again though now which i know might be stating the obvious but eh , they can be so hard to read no matter what they say.
i envied you man .


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> oh [email protected] yea z i've read yours , she's a doosey . i don't think she really wanted to divorce or anything though , just a breather. i thought before mine shot through i'd just like a breather myself - hu so much for that , got a breather alright.
> 
> in your latest stuff it does sound like she wants to seriously try again though now which i know might be stating the obvious but eh , they can be so hard to read no matter what they say.
> i envied you man .


I get that impression too, but refuse to rugsweep. That makes it rough. She wants me to just let it all drop and trust blind again. Unwilling to do the work to R. That's what I mean about her givin up hurtin more than anything. We'll see what happens but I'm prepared either way. Miss the gal like crazy but she's gotta prove she's her again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

without knowing her , it might not be drop it as such though.
tell you something about mine , she's a serious rug sweeper but- verbally yeah it seems swept well and truly but behind the scenes she'll try like all hell to fix or work on whatever it is.
she'll even try not to let me see that she's working on it.

and she wouldn't want to talk about what split us up , it'd be really hard for her to even touch it and if i dug that'd embarrass her. but the same , she'd know it all and you could bet she'll be tinkering away at it. dunno why she just wouldn't want me to know she was though.
her whole families like that .

not saying yours is like that as such but it mightn't be as cut and dry as it seems . l'd certainly be trying to see between the lines .


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> without knowing her , it might not be drop it as such though.
> tell you something about mine , she's a serious rug sweeper but- verbally yeah it seems swept well and truly but behind the scenes she'll try like all hell to fix or work on whatever it is.
> she'll even try not to let me see that she's working on it.
> 
> ...


I hear you, but if lack of effective communication was a problem, and it was, me reading between the lines will just set me up for future failure. She's got to decide what she wants and clearly communicate it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Chucky,

Any updates? Did she give you an answer to your request?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

replying in order read.......
Whitehawk-Dude it's easy to advise others but when it comes to your own, it's always confusing. My (not yet) doctorate is in the psychology field but not MC. Your W may think a D will solve all her problems, it will not. It creates more. Veteran TAMers will vouch for that. We can't live separately because she can not manage money. She owes more than she makes. Since I stopped managing her finances, she has more creditors calling than a "ho" house in Nevada on New Year's Eve. I started giving them her cell number. She wants freedom, here you go honey.

I went to the lake one night, I have always went there when I feel bad or confused. Full moon bounced off the water, I asked to let it all go. Group of birds flew by moments later. So happened Bonnie Tyler's 'Total Eclipse of the Heart' was on the radio. Funny how things work. But the same issues will still be there without FCC/MC even if she came begging back six months later. I hate to throw a time line but it's kind of 'now or never'.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

ReGroup-I left the N/N Thursday afternoon before I went to bed and she returned from work. I try my best to sleep when she is here and awake. We were both up for I guess thirty minutes before she went to bed. She left dinner on the stove if I wanted it. I am a free lance sports writer and it must have been 2 AM when I thought, 'ya know....she will be waking up and you will still be doing your piece on the 2012 wrap-up....tell ya what....grab some stuff and leave.' I did and went to a place where there was no net. I wrote a piece with no way of verifying stats.....I knew them. Was a bit refreshing knowing I can pull a story out of my head while most others have to stat search for hours. 
I stayed there last night and returned home this morning. She brought two large pizzas home last night. There is one and a few pieces from the other in fridge. Guess I was expected to be home last night. Sorry....doesn't work that way. She emailed me early this morning. I have not read it, I have more important things to do. If it was of the utmost importance, she could have wrote it down. 
For some strange reason, I always wanted several kids. Two boys and a girl. I even collected baseball cards in the 90's and would buy three sets, one for me, two for the guys. I had to give up that dream but I accepted it. I grew up around rough marriages but they always worked things out. Once married, always married. That's what tore me so bad inside. But if she does not wish to work on this M, I am free to pursue that dream again. I'm old but not dead! 
But yeah, I'd still prefer to work things out. But it is in her court. I am John Wooten, she is the star point guard. Either get in the game or turn out the lights. BTW-she still has not finished filling out the amended marital dissolution. I want it notarized so the countdown can continue......I was in limbo, not anymore. Chit or get off the pot


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Way to go Chuck...Didn't even read the email. I don't think I have reached that level of ambivalence yet. I like you wanted three kids and I got two. So happy my ex is a POS and handed the kids over to me. Only thing I worry about is a change of heart.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

GP-I am very humble but I want to share this. And if she is snooping on TAM lol well so be it. I had a botched brain surgery to remove a tumor 25 years ago. I was told I would have the mental capacity of a 10/12 year old and be lucky to walk with a cane. I was in high school at the time. I won my first 5k race two years later and received my masters degree in 2005. I am working towards my doctorate. I went through a he!! most can not understand. I prayed to die. My mother heard me. It broke her heart. To this day she feels I literally rose from the ashes with an iron fist. In my situation, I am nearing the point of no return. She is nearly 7 years older than me but was always my little princess. Yes I control the future but, it may not be what I want, but what I need.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> GP-
> 
> ```
> I am very humble but I want to share this.  And if she is snooping on TAM lol well so be it.  I had a botched brain surgery to remove a tumor 25 years ago.  I was told I would have the mental capacity of a 10/12 year old and be lucky to walk with a cane.  I was in high school at the time.  I won my first 5k race two years later and received my masters degree in 2005.  I am working towards my doctorate.  I went through a he!! most can not understand.  I prayed to die.  My mother heard me.  It broke her heart.  To this day she feels I literally rose from the ashes with an iron fist.
> ...


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

I HAD to have help. You know what I'm referring to! I'm the average Joe. I care nothing for organized religion but will fight to the death for my own personal belief. Sorry the CS Lewis coming out a bit.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

This sh** don't happen in Narnia.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Digory agrees...........Abolition of Man best book i ever read


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## stilllookingup (Oct 29, 2012)

Pizzas, Emails.. To me she’s trying hard to show you affections. When you say something like “I have more important things to do” it sounds so cold to me. (I’m sorry! I know you have every right to be mad at her for not opening up to you but I’m just sharing my thoughts from only what I read here) I know you are set on D unless she opens up about MC but what actions or words will make you consider drop D? Would she physically have to come to you and tell you “You know what, I’m willing to go to MC so please drop the D process”?


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SLU-A pizza and an email would not qualify as affection. What would is the fact she desires to try and work things out. My trust in her is completely gone. We couldn't communicate, in the past, effectively, therefore we need outside help. We avoided fights by not bringing things up and it built resentment in each. In the early days, we would always bring things up that bothered us. Yes we would fight but by midnight, we were cuddled up in bed and both feeling like crap for making such a big deal about things. For years we always said, never go to sleep mad, even if you're up until 4AM.
By not answering emails.....I guess that simply means I am not at her beckoned call? Keep in mind, for roughly three weeks she would not come home but every other morning to take a shower. Left Wednesday night before Thanksgiving to go to a co-workers house. That moment I let everything out one last time and let it go....she came home. She tries to chat like everything is normal (rugsweeping, what got us into this in the first place), no it's not normal. She said she wanted out, wanted freedom, felt she was trapped.....had no desire to work on the marriage. Therefore, I dropped the D. So no.....I do not see it as a priority to answer her emails. We still reside in the same house. 

I have not been home at all minus part of Wednesday, since last weekend. If you are eating, lay it down before you read further. The house is a disaster, overfilled trash cans in bathroom with rolled up "female hygiene" products laying in the floor, dog poop all in the living room, kitchen was a disaster (this was what I walked into Wednesday) and the smell. My goodness....five inside dogs.....yes that has been an issue with us.

I'm not dropping the D, it will go through. And by the short letter she wrote me (on this thread), she wants it to go through as well. But to date afterwards? If you did not wish to address the issues during the marriage, why would you when divorced? The same issues will be there even if we went our separate ways and ran into each other a year later. You may not have caught this part but she had an EA in '07 and said she ended it when I uncovered it. I found an old email in '11 from 2010 where they were still emailing. It was not a sexual email at all but that did tell me, she was still speaking to him, three years later. 

When people would come over she would oftentimes, put the dogs outside. But never would for us to have 'our time'. Those dogs would always be laying around her so, tell me, how would I be able to show any affection. Just a random thought but, maybe she wanted them there knowing it would isolate her from me.
What would I accept? A simple 'I want to talk. We can now or if you still want to see FCC/MC or a person from your church, we can do that." 

We can start resolving issues leading up to the D and have momentum, I would ask her to remain at the house and see if things can progress. Does part of me want that, yes it does. Would you re-marry her if things were resolved? Absolutely, matter of fact our anniversary is in May. Has it crossed my mind? Yes.

But one thing which has happened, after I went to he!! and back is, do I want to? Usually the one who says they want out, detaches before they make the announcement. The shocked spouse has to hit the roller coaster. But when the ride is over and they detach....the other realizes it. She is nearly seven years older than me and she was always, my princess. I can't say that now.
If the best effort on her part is to bring home a pizza, I guess our book has been written. You know in your case SLU, one can't do it alone. I gave my one requirement, I don't think it is asking much. 

But not wanting to talk right now (this started in late October) but wanting to date after D? Guess that shows how much she thought of the marriage.


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## stilllookingup (Oct 29, 2012)

I have many questions. Why was the house so dirty? Does she have problem cleaning up and is it one of the issues you guys have? I was only saying buying extra pizza or emailing you may be her way of trying to communicate with you. I only said that because I’d buy him cookies he likes etc and just leave them on his desk hoping he’d know I care about him. Dumb I know but you’ve read my recent posts how I’ve been afraid of even bring up where we are.

What did she mean by “freedom”? Freedom to cheat whenever she wants to or freedom from all the marriage duties and stuff.

Also, I agree with you I don’t see why she wants to date you after D is final BUT is there a possibility she’s saying that because she’s given up that you will change your mind about D? Have you recently told her with kindness (not resentful way) to feel free to come to you if she changed her mind about MC and willing to give it try? I know I’m not her but if my H had specified one request that I originally didn’t agree upon but told me kindly that I could change my mind, I would gladly go back to him (if I really changed my mind, of course) otherwise I’d so afraid of even telling him that I changed my mind.

Just a thought..


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SLU-The house was dirty because she has a bad habit of not picking up after herself. Now when I was not working, I did not mind one bit to pick up after her and she did me when she was not working. But after everything blew up, I mostly cleaned the house (because I will keep it) but stopped picking up after her. I even told her one night 'to pick up after herself if she plans on staying there until the D, I'm not your spouse anymore.' Her reply, "I'll be out after two more paychecks." Two checks later, still here and not packed a thing. I'm not a masterful house cleaner but I kept it clean.

Our main issues are communicating, her son (who I raised as my own) who turned to thugs n drugs, stole our wedding rings which were a pass down from my family (she never seemed infuriated about it, which reaffirmed his guilt and seriously bothered me she was not mad as a wet hen) and a rope chain mom bought me for my undergrad degree in the mid-90's. In other words, unreplaceable, no amount of money would take their place. He played on her emotions wanting to come back home (she kicked him out in '10) and it ended up being a stand off with she and I. Sorry but he never apologized, admitted, or sat down and talked to me about it. His idea of solving problems is smoking pot. He is 23 and does not care to work and now......has guilted her into paying his car payment. I don't trust him, therefore he can not return. 

And the other issue is those five dogs....two was okay, had them for over ten years. After her mother died (she lived with us and yes, I thought the world of my MiL) her dog got preggy and had three puppies. She saw that as an extention of her mom, even named one after her. They were cute and all but by the next summer, fleas and tics were all over them. I said they need to stop sleeping around or on the bed. She refused, huge fight, I began sleeping in her mother's old bed. I love dogs but, no not laying with tics and fleas....that is a sickness.
You have a point SLU, we both are not well at expressing ourselves to each other. If I have to chew out a co-worker...not a problem. But in this case (the D), with this being such a large explosion, yes she may not know what to do. But.......is it hard to say, yes I want us to talk with someone about us? 

When she dropped the bomb, she wasn't happy. I wasn't happy but you just don't walk away from fifteen years without a fight. She said she had felt that way for about four years. I question that by...all the i love yous, the happy anniversaries, the I am so lucky to have you for the rest of my life during those four years. One way or another, she is lying. But another time, she said it was only two years.....jokingly I thought just keep asking her until it gets to two months and maybe you can work it out LOL. 

But the last letter I gave her asking her to sit down and talk to me, her reply had a line in it "i'm not ready to be a wife again." After that, I dropped down the 'rabbit hole', hit bottom, strapped myself in, and came out of it a few weeks later.

She does not know I will refuse to stop the D. She will if she wants to talk to someone. That's why I am only accepting work things out, still have D, this marriage is lifeless. But it can have a new beginning, we could work through all these issues and hey, re-marry on what would have been our 14th anniversary. But that would be a 'wish and a prayer'. 

I told her right before we filed, "Yes I dropped the D because you wanted out and didn't want to work on it to save it. But for the record, I don't want this but I have no choice." Yes she knows I am willing to talk but with someone who has experience in this.....as you see from our past, we had difficulty in resolving them. I stayed at the house, we would stay in separate rooms....very little communication but 98% was from her. But after you break someone's heart, sorry I don't care how your day went. All I want to hear is, "I am sorry how can I fix what I've done?" There has been no arguing between us (minus above statement).....she knows exactly where I stand.
My one request is pretty much the only thing that can save us. I just made the non-negotiable after she wrote she was not ready to talk to someone. If she wants to save it....here is how to do it. 

SLU I do thank you for your input. I think you are the first female who has given her thoughts. I try to see things from her point of view but it's never as good as another female.


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## stilllookingup (Oct 29, 2012)

Oh my god ok so that's a lot that you went through. And it's really hard for me to take her side especially after I've read all these. All I know is though no matter how bad her son is, she's the mother. And I KNoW moms love boys! My brother was somewhat a troublemaker when he was young but to this today my mom worries about him way too much in my opinion but hey I don't have kids yet so I don't know. I have a co worker whose her son is a troublemaker but again she's almost always on his side. Why did her son turn out bad? Did her previous marriage/divorce affect him badly? 

Also, I know what you went through and what she and caused in this relationship but do you have anything that you think have caused? I ask this because in my case I'm mostly the blame however I realized for the first time when we sat down and talked after D was dropped that I had been putting a huge wall up between me and his family (they love me and I love them) because I often fell so lonely that whole my family is in my mother country and I always had to make sure to arrange gifts or remind my H to call his nana etc etc. Itjust built up in me. Nobody sends my family cards for birthdays etc (because in laws are still pretty young and are always really busy) but I just felt so angry. When we sat down though my H acknowledged it in words for the first time how tough it must have been for me, and I just shattered. It was like my thick wall I put up for a long time completely collapsed.

That affirmation was the only thing I was looking for to put my guards down and drop all the unnecessary resentments against his family. Btw, again they love me and I love them. It was really hard for me. I guess no one could ever really understand it unless you are completely alone in a different country and all you have is your spouse. But in his defense I think he really tried to make me open up to the other people by suggesting I should go out with the girl at the store who seemed to really like me etc. For some odd reason I get liked a lot by workers at a store/restaurant we often went to and some of them gave me numbers so we could text and go out. But every time something like that happened, I withdrew and even though it was not about him, he really did not like that I’d do that.

I guess I only truly trusted him and felt nobody else would not come in my world.. I never thought I had the serious problem until D was dropped. 2 months of self-assessment and soul searching did wonders for me. I now know so much about me, what my H went through this marriage and what my H tried to do to help me.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Chuck, I sympathize with your situation. I don't know how someone can throw 15 years out the window... for what seems like a whole lot of uncertainty. Your wife doesn't even know where she is living in the next month or so. 

Very reckless, but she's not seeing things that way. 

Sometimes, people don't know how good they have it - they take a gamble for "greener pastures", don't care about the wreckage left behind, only to find out that things are the same or worse.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> Chuck, I sympathize with your situation. I don't know how someone can throw 15 years out the window... for what seems like a whole lot of uncertainty. Your wife doesn't even know where she is living in the next month or so.
> 
> Very reckless, but she's not seeing things that way.
> 
> Sometimes, people don't know how good they have it - they take a gamble for "greener pastures", don't care about the wreckage left behind, only to find out that things are the same or worse.


I'm trying to see things this way. She isn't throwing away 15 years. She's throwing away the next 40+.

The grass is greener where you water it.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SLU-I never told her he could not come over. But I made it clear, he can not come back. He stays at his dad's now. When she and I met, her D with him was within a month of being final. His dad would wait until he was dropping him off and say 'too bad I have to drop you off at your mom's, we were going to (insert anything fun).' That would get him to cry (he was 7) and tear W and her mother up. I would tell them, he is doing that to directly hurt you. Yeah his dad's main concern was finding some strange right after the D and I made sure he had a Christmas, not his dad. As far as what he would tell you honestly, I'm not his dad but I did raise him.

W told me once she never loved her 1st H. Course my question was why did you marry him? I glanced at some of their pictures years ago and in all honesty, she never did look happy. Her mother told me, 'this is the first time in her life I have seen her happy.' For me.....I thought I knew all about what love was. Boy was I wrong....what I felt with her after about eight months....I can't describe it...it was that wonderful.
As for me, I am in no way a saint. But I never broke the two rules most women have, don't cheat on me and don't abuse me in any form. She had me convinced in the beginning of this debacle, I was an alcoholic. My IC asked me......did you drink when you and her were spending time together (no)....did your drinking increase as her affection decreased (yes)....then you would get off in one end of the house and drink out of boredom and to hide the hurt while she sat in the den with all her dogs crawling all over her. IC as usual, hit the nail on the head. Known my IC over twenty years....she helped me through a bad break up nearly 20 years ago and I was her IC when her M ended a few years later.

Could I have said 'i love you' more? Of course I could have but that is a two-way street. I went through a period of severe depression from not being able to find a job. Being the H, I was always the bread winner....and I would beat myself up for not maintaining excellence. But....not one time....did she come to me and say 'honey i'm here for you. i know you're hurting, talk to me. i love you and want to help.' Hearing something like that....I could feel like I could conquer the world. Never happened, not even remotely.
Was she ever 'there for me'? Hardly ever.....was I for her.....always. 

I had my goofy hobbies.....I still like to fool with baseball cards.....but those hobbies were started or re-discovered only when.....she backed away from me. After we were married a couple of years and had dated for a couple, I went to an attorney and almost filed for D. The attorney said to go talk to her and make absolutely sure this is what you want. We talked all night and things were a lot better but only for a short period.

I told her before we were M, I want a child....actually children. She agreed but it was not long into the M, she seemed to lose her zest for children. She had some female issues and I accepted that and eventually...the fact she will not have any children with me. Hurt....oh yeah....a lot. But would not have left her over it.

Her mom and dad were D and they still "got together' after the D. Her four siblings....all went through at least one D. My parents were M until he passed away. Maybe I just saw a M as more binding than she, I don't know. Maybe she thinks she and I can "get together" like her parents did......sorry not happening.

SLU in your case you felt completely isolated and in my W's case......she is too. Her son his on a downward spiral and reached out to her. She is now in the same spiral. I was always the problem solver.....but this is one problem I can't fix. That is up to her.

I thought.....was there ever a moment where I had to say.....oh my God I completely f'ed up. How can I fix this with W? Not once.... 

Her mom passed away while on a trip with my mom and my aunt. Before her mom left she told me 'now take care of my baby girl' and kissed me on the cheek. Looking back...it's like she knew she wasn't coming home. After her mom died, W was bawling and literally in the floor laying at my feet begging me not to leave her. W knew I was considering it at the time because a few weeks earlier is when I discovered her EA. I was very seriously considering leaving her. But when her mom died......I couldn't.....do I regret not leaving her then? No......I made a promise to her mom. Would I have left her had she not died.....I can't say with certainty. 

Which leaves me at a crossroad. If it is over, I now have the chance at having children, a solid M throughout.....but I ask myself......what about the vows you professed? What if there is a chance to work things out? Either way I write the ending of the story but what happens when you're not sure which version to write?


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

ReG-You are correct, she doesn't know. In a way, I believe she thinks I will allow her to stay at the house. Wishful thinking on her part......which leads me to a possible outcome of........her doing a false R out of the fear of being alone. All through her life, she was with her mom (even 1st M, most of) or me. I guess she thinks I am as forgiving as her mom was......bad move on her part. It's like she wakes up in a new world every morning.

I am fully aware if she is seeking greener pastures she will discover the grass grows on a septic tank. We have no children and she walks away with nothing, I get to inherit her debt (shocker!). As each day passes I feel more and more as if I am passing through the Tao (CS Lewis). There's a song out there from Cher and written by Diane Warren (I used to be a songwritter as well)....When Lovers become Strangers.....simply switch the gender usage and it resonates a great deal.

I hope you have a good time at the wedding. Don't be too worried, if many are not even aware of your situation, they will after this. You never know, there could be a woman at the wedding who admired you from afar but respected the fact you were married. It can happen......hasn't to me though.

Adding to diary..........attend more weddings! LOL


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Update.....Friday we met at the courthouse to have the amended agreement signed. It just went into more specifics on who gets the house, which is me. She was already there when I arrived. I saw her and it was weird, I saw a female, not the woman who had my heart for 15 years. In a professional manner I informed her she still needs to fill out the page she kept putting off. Why she did that, I don't know. 

We had to run all over the place to find a notary who was not at lunch. She assumed I was getting ill (one of her gripes about me) and I replied, "In what way do you conclude myself as being ill?" No response. After being signed I asked the clerk if having to amend this, would it push back the D date. She said no. I noticed that caught my W totally off-guard. I did not do it for shock value, I really wanted to know.

As we were leaving she told me she washed the bed sheets the dogs barfed on (bed I sleep in) and asked me when I was coming home. I said maybe tonight. I did not return Friday nor today. Did not want to? Not really. I may stop in Sunday just to make sure everything is still in order. Her son has stayed with her a few times I guess and I also want to make sure everything is 'still where I left it'.

Now that I have been apart from her since Christmas Eve minus a few days in between Christmas and New Year's, I have noticed a freshness. Plus it is a glimpse for her, of how her life will be without me in it. On a side note, since I no longer handle her finances.....mainly because lol she isn't paying her bills......I knew she had a $60 auto withdraw on a settlement with a credit card company. He!!s bells she completely forgot about it......when the $60 came through.....it bounced six checks. NSF charges of nearly $200. Yeah.......that's why I always handled the finances....but her bills are now, her problem. When she told me about it....I just nodded and said 'dang.' Not what I wanted to say but......I am trying to be civil.

I have dropped around 45 pounds....I'm guessing she added close to that. Did it bother me afterwards going up there and furthering the D? Yes it did. But it's like whipping your kid, you don't want to but you know in the end, you have to. I have four emails from her today. I have not opened any. We don't have kids. Unless one says 'I want to talk', they're not much of a concern to me. 

Looking at it with a clear head now, she is seeing reality for what it is. Maybe she is grasping at straws. She knows things have changed. A month ago, I would take anything she offered conversation-wise to use as a 'maybe'. Now IDGAF.....a demeanor she always said she knew when I was in that zone. I do plan to return to the house for a day or two, if the horrid smell is gone and the house is cleaned. If not, check and see if everything is where it was left and leave.

I don't have a cell now and I don't text so getting in touch with me is not an easy thing if I am not reading her emails. So I guess the next step is wait to be informed of the court date. We're in the home stretch......she knows it. Her window is closing. My desire to even try and rectify this is too.


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## stilllookingup (Oct 29, 2012)

Long day for you... I still hope she'll come to senses before it's final. Hope you'll have a good night sleep.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

It looks like you have fully detached Chuck. It's not clear to me if you want to reconcile or not. Do you?


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## BigMac (Oct 29, 2012)

It sounds she is willing to R but her Ego is in her way ! Up to you ! 

We all make mistakes and we all can forgive and be forgiven .


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

GP-I would like to make an effort. Even if we did R and see FCC/MC that does not mean it will work. It could very well signify the death blow. Or it may save us. I have a multitude of things I wish to bring up, I'm sure she has a few as well. My lifeline to her ends the day the D is final. 

But will she agree? That's her decision to make. She always wanted me to make her decisions for her in most matters.....money....work...etc. I can't make this one for her. What will probably happen and it has to me in the past, I will move on and just be starting something with someone who has a lot of potential. I will be at the 'almost ready to fall stage' and look who comes out of the past. So.....ex who gave up on 15 years without a fight and never was fully tuned into you or......this new gal who wants to start a life with me, have children and have a lasting marriage.

I went back with my ex g/fs twice (once each) when we broke up. Each time I was formulating something with someone new when they returned. It never was the same. I will not make that mistake a third time. Would it be convenient to go back to my ex wife? Of course but what exactly am I going back to? I am open to work on things but there is a deadline. I worded my non-negotiable in that form for a reason. It will be my form of closure.

Big Mac mentioned his W wanted a D, wished him well after the D was final and two weeks late, came crying wanting to R. I don't know what he did but I honestly don't think I would accept it. We are all held accountable for our actions. She knows I am this way.....so if it is her idea to not do anything. The book will be finished, closed and shelved. What I want? No. But life will go on.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

I here you Chuck, if you meet someone else dirty laundry doesn't sound that appealing anymore.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

BigMac-Have the cards on the table. If she has ego problems, that is internally hers. I clearly expressed why I dropped the D on her and.........it was not what I wanted. All it takes is a "I want to talk". We're not searching for a cure for cancer.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

BigMac-How can you see her wanting R? Your W or mine? Maybe I misread.


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## BigMac (Oct 29, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> BigMac-Have the cards on the table. If she has ego problems, that is internally hers. I clearly expressed why I dropped the D on her and.........it was not what I wanted. All it takes is a "I want to talk". We're not searching for a cure for cancer.


Yes, my W did put the cards on the table after weird texts and calls . And she admitted - her Ego was in her way and she needed time to work through it.


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## BigMac (Oct 29, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> BigMac-How can you see her wanting R? Your W or mine? Maybe I misread.


My did things like this over and over again - she admitted for those small hints 



> We had to run all over the place to find a notary who was not at lunch. She assumed I was getting ill (one of her gripes about me) and I replied, "In what way do you conclude myself as being ill?" No response. After being signed I asked the clerk if having to amend this, would it push back the D date. She said no. I noticed that caught my W totally off-guard. I did not do it for shock value, I really wanted to know.
> 
> As we were leaving she told me she washed the bed sheets the dogs barfed on (bed I sleep in) and asked me when I was coming home.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

BM-I have continually gave her opportunities. Maybe with me leaving the house minus pop-ins to check on my stuff....that will bring some type of realization. But I have to admit, the longer it is being dragged out, the less I am wanting it to be fixed. My IC told me 'once she realizes she can't replace you, she will come back'. OK...but will this be an on-going thing? Do I want that? We aren't dating. If it takes until that final meeting with judge for it to sink in with her, so be it. Can I promise I would be receptive? No.


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## BigMac (Oct 29, 2012)

She may never pass behind her ego so it is up to you if you wanna help her !

If you don't love her anymore or doesn't think it is worth it then yeah, you have to move on. 

To me it sounds she is missing you already.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

BM-I HAVE to be missing the boat here. Seriously. Is it the fact I was the one trampled on by her wanting out that all I will accept is FCC/MC? In truth, with our issues....what is left? We had trouble communicating, built up resentment. So fixing it between her and I, can't even be thought of. Of course at church, the last few weeks have been about.....marriage. ARGH! I have to be missing the boat here but with it being my own relationship, that doesn't shock me one bit lol


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## BigMac (Oct 29, 2012)

We both read His needs her needs and 5 love languages and agreed we'll work on everything a success marriage needs . Also we both agreed our marriage wasn't our #1 priority and this is why it ended up in D.
Now we're putting M in front of everything. Both agreed to put 150% into it . 
We can make it work if we really want , same for you and your W. 

But again, need two ppl in order to succeed , if one of them isn't giving everything of him self it won't work.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

It took me several days to update because I wanted to make sure how I was affected by this and to what extent. The last time I spent the night at the house, where she is at and will be departing soon, was right before NYE. I stop in a couple times a week, mostly when she is not there and maybe snooze or check on my things. Sunday was my pop-in day and the evening before I received four emails from her. I never opened them.

When I arrived at the house that morning to pick up a few things for church, she informed me outside dogs (yes she has outside dogs too and they're huge) got into it with the newest stray she took in a few months ago. They ganged the new stray and she went out to break it up and the new stray thought she had a larger dogs in her grasp when she bit down, but it happened to be, the top of W's foot. ER visit, deep deep bite, almost to the bone. Here's the kicker, had I been there I just grab the large dogs, yes they weigh over 85-100 lbs. and one by one toss them 10-15 yards and they stop. They (large dogs) did in the past and can recall what happened when they didn't.
When I left after a few minutes, I said I will return in a few hours after church. Small country church...only kind I can go to. When I returned she was needing help redoing her bandage around her foot and ankle. Her son, one I raised and I call Mr. Sticky Fingers since his downward spiral from two years ago, was actually off his a$$ helping her do things around the house. So there it was, me.....knowing she needed help. I offered to help and for a second, things were like they were a long time ago. In those days, I would do anything in the world to help her when she was hurt or sick and that was often. But after I re dressed it, it hit me. That feeling is just about gone. I hung out in the bedroom and watched an NFL game and after a few hours I decided to leave.

Now had she said, 'would you stick around here more to help me out?' I can't say I would have. Would my heart want to, yes but is it because I still have small parts of me that still is in love with her or the fact we were best friends? She never asked so that point was non-valid. I did receive an email later that night, opened it the next evening and it said 'thank you for helping with my foot.' Reply-you're welcome.

An interesting situation arose roughly around the time everything between her and I exploded. She has a brother who is "being held in a certain location for a specific amount of time" but had an A-1 job for a number of years. Currently he is not in great health. My W is his PoA, his best choice compared to his other brother and two half-brothers. He received a settlement offer on his retirement or a monthly amount until he dies. Being in poor health he chose lump sum. The amount......well let's just say I saw this coming. I retrieved a piece of paper showing how the cash was going to be disbursed and lo and behold........there is about $5k that will be skimmed off the top. Now my BiL is extremely intelligent and I think he already knew this would happen. The skimmed cash is how she intends to move out. I saw it coming. I just hate posting personal matters this close to home on the net.

My W has a weakness in looking long term. If she simply caught up what she owes on her car (behind three payments), her son's car (two payments) and the seven credit card bills she is way past due on......that $5k would pretty much be gone. But that is not now.....she can not think that far ahead. Part of that can even be my fault.....I was always the financial planner, the long term insightful person. So why should she.....I was more crafted at it. Similar to the kitchen....I'm a decent cook for a guy but she had me beat by fifty miles.

And she actually thinks she has the upper hand. Thankfully that emotion has pushed me away further. The house is still a god-awful mess since I left. Napkins used while eating left on the floor and her precious three dogs rip them into 2,586 pieces. I don't hate her, I pity her. I now ask myself, if she agrees to MC before the D is final.....and with my requirements and terms......would she would balk? She thinks I may end up caving after the D.....keep on thinking that way. Too much has happened recently......she allowed me to re-capture my inner strength. I did not realize how close I was to "check mate" 

Her walls are already closing in and she doesn't even know it. I'm just taking high ground. But what will probably tear the living he!! out of me.......the time will come in the near future where she comes back but not out of love but desperation. She has never officially been on her own. She either had her mom, 1st H or me.
I can see her possibly faking love with another guy in hopes of getting a place to stay. You can lie to yourself for years but you can not your most pure emotion......love.

So here I stand.....another crossroads....a better crossroads for me. But in a way.....a worse one. I will have to look her into the eyes and say, "I can not accept you back. I can not accept your love any longer. I will carry with me the wonderful memories we once made, I hope you do as well. But my once princess....please leave.....I don't love you in regards to the future any more."

After she leaves I'm sure a fifth will be drank......lol It will hurt, oh man it will. But I did not start the war.....I ended it. I will post an update for this past Wednesday soon. It is.....well a doosy!

ReG.............I think it was about a month ago I made a post about getting past the he!! and you told me "you're almost there" you were so right ReG........thank you


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

I sense you are a life raft slowly drifting away from her. I do believe she should do the heavy lifting. Is she a very loving person who can show her emotions well?

That simple email she sent could be reaching out in her mind.

I am convinced that you require some heavy lifting on her part. I do think you deserve that.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

Chuck, sounds like you are tunring the corner.

As hard as it is, yes, you must let go. If it was meant to be, then it will be, on YOUR terms.

She needs help, you cannot save her.

Sometimes, we must destroy something good to rebuild something magnificant.

You must stop thinkin in "what ifs" this will drive you crazy. If she really wanted to stop all this she could.

She does is not showing signs that she wants too. She has to go out into the world alon and see for herself.

I hope you take care of you during this process.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Chuck, HiRoad and GP are right.

Their has been a shift in balance in who holds the power in the relationship and I'm glad you are smart enough to notice it. Whether she comes begging back or not - you'll be OK either way.

Funny though, the chaos of her future is staring her right in the face and she's unable to pick up on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

GP-Do you remember Guns n Roses "Estranged"? Ever see the video? Especially the part after 5:30. 
The paper she wrote on between Christmas and New Year's which said (located in first post of this thread) to para-phrase "i'm not ready to talk, after D, date, see if spark is there" and my response "non-negotiable is FCC/MC before the D" still sits on coffee table. When it comes to reaching out, it's like the pizza she brought home.....like the email. I'm sorry but she has destroyed both our worlds. If she had the audacity to wreak the havoc, have the wherewithall to alleviate the damage imposed. How hard is it to say "i want to talk?"

Emotionally she always relied upon me. My trial by fire was the surgery I mentioned back in high school. Her two true support systems were her mother and me. She was very loving when we dated, hence reason I married her. We had issues before her mother's death but afterwards she really never was the same. I was aware a large part of her died with her mom. And her mom was super kind. She was my 2nd mom. It really hurt me when she passed, I can only imagine what it did to her.

Now her son is sinking down the drain.....dragging her with him. My (in progress) doctorate is in the psych field so I feel qualified to say this. He needs help in a big way, on several levels. She does too. My cards are on the table. Rugsweeping will not happen. Even if.....she did want to talk and see MC......when she hears what I have to say......the MC may be over after one session.

We do crazy things for the people we love. I put up with things I really was unaware how bad they were. After I left for awhile and came back, it all became clear. I will not live the way we did before. But her world when she was truly happy was her mother, me and her son. Her mom is gone, I am almost gone and her son has psychological and substance abuse issues. Her world has crumbled. 

Two examples of what it used to be like (yeah caught in memory lane, shoot me lol).....I went by an ex g/f's house maybe four months after we were dating. I promised to run by and see her new baby (no wasn't mine thank goodness!). Somehow word got back to W2B (gee wonder who did that lol) and when I got to her place......I walked into a trap. She was screaming (and drinking) thinking I was getting back with my ex. After an hour of "do you still love her" and "girl you're about psycho" she calmed down. She realized I wasn't looking for anyone, I had what I wanted. She felt horrible after she started to sober up (LOL). She apologized and let me know she acted the folly. In those days....she spoke her mind and I liked that. This episode was probably forgotten by the end of that week.

Another is when we would get into an argument, most likely, petty. But her mom was a dynamite go-between. If I was being a turd, she would tell me. She would do the same to her. She really never leaned one way or the other. When she was gone, the buffer or go-between was lost. 

If any reader is non-religious stop reading here. You can reach out to God, He is all-knowing. You can't just reach out to me, I'm not all-knowing.


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## stilllookingup (Oct 29, 2012)

I know I'm probably the only one who's hoping you'd reconcile but I know she'd have to smell real strong Columbian coffee to wake up and stop this. It just welled me up when you are talking about happy times with her. So much memory and love to cherish for. Oh how I wish she'd wake up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

ReG, GP, HiR.............. she has trouble showing her emotions. Like her mother told me, I was the first guy she was really able to share them with. Yes she had a not too pleasant childhood and the guys she dated and the one H before me were possessive and controlling. None of them ever asked her how she felt and my guess is they never cared. Maybe when I came along and asked her.....that's why her mother told me she had never seen her so happy.

Well that's all well and good for a Lifetime reconnection story but back to the real world. I guess when I came out of the he!! hole things began to balance out near Christmas Eve. Me leaving then and NYE and pretty much every night since 12/24 minus a few days before NYE...is when the balance shifted.

I will try to post what happened Wednesday soon. Eye opening.....you betcha. One thing I did get was the pictures I wanted. 99% were ones before we were married. You could just tell....yeah.....they're in love. I took several of her mom (she has many more of her) and if she don't like it.......lol take me to court! Any of the wedding photos? Nah......I notice she's looked at them a few times because they were not in the same place when I was there last. She may think I took a handful though.....no.......one night I felt an awakening and I sat at the porch and burned them. I did not feel a thing. BTW the negatives are still there.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SLU-I wish she would wake up too but the hourglass has more sand at the bottom. We had a once in a lifetime....at one time. That is what I will take with me. She has issues with her mother's death, her son, attachment to the dogs, unkept house, feces on floor (and LEFT there), toxic single/div female friends with multiple children from more than one daddy.......and if the truth be dug deep enough, issues with her father.

In my schooling, my end result is evaluating serial killers. What made them this way.....what stigmatized them? So having a clear picture of the situation now, I see a multitude of issues she needs to have addressed, whether we work out or not.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

What kind of issues did she have with her dad - if you don't mind me asking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

ReG-Her dad was very old school. Being since he was born right before World War 1. He did not abandon her but he was in no way around when she needed his guidance and approval during her pre-teen and early teen years. Here is a prime example, when she was twelve a friend cut her hair and as soon as her dad saw it, he called her a harlot (aka wh*re) and she did not speak to him for years. The thing which leaves scars on children which never heal. 

He died a year before she and I met and I knew it still bothered her when she told me. That explains some of why she was so close to her mother. To the best of my knowledge, her mother was the only one who never degraded her or mistreated her. Maybe the same reason she zeroed in on me so quick. 

I would make a more construct decision on her entire life but I am way too biased. If it was a client, I would. But when your own emotions get involved, best to not draw conclusions. So it leads me to another crossroad, if I was the first guy who treated her with respect, kindness and love........why am I here writing about our destroyed M? That is a question I can not answer.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> So it leads me to another crossroad, if I was the first guy who treated her with respect, kindness and love........why am I here writing about our destroyed M? That is a question I can not answer.


That is a tough one Chuck. I had the same one but I think I've answered it. 

Stbxw also had a bad childhood. Her mother went from man to man before settling with a verbally and physically abusive one. A lot of conflict in the home. 

The big problems in our M started shortly after we attended my parent's 50th anniversary this summer. An event that my stbxw made a brief appearance at and then left and drank herself silly all day in seclusion. 

I've come to the conclusion that it completely terrified her to see such a happy, long-term marriage up close. It was something so foreign to her and she felt unworthy and/or incapable of achieving such a thing. Which would explain why she always hid and drank while visiting my folks for holidays.

When a child is treated terribly by the ones they love the most, and never fully deal with it in a proper way, it seems they do not know how to accept good treatment later. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

And a well spent two cents.. Z
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

After the email I received last night, I guess I should update what happened Wednesday. House was still a mess...no shock. Any way the house, my parents owned and mom sold to us and left many things there was the setting. She left dad's guns, four of them. Something told me.....check them. I found two. Mom asked me to double check......I did. So now mom is in the mix LOL........keeps getting better doesn't it........

Long story short, mom called her. Mom is.......well......she speaks her mind, all I can say. She informed her if she or her son have no knowledge of the two missing guns, the police will be involved. And.....well......knowing mom.......she added her two cents......."it will take $40k to clean this house up".... no response from her. But when I woke up that evening (I was asleep when she came in) and she was asleep....ironic the kitchen was cleaned and the house picked up....LOL.........not that it matters in the end, just irony 

I hated mom got involved being I can take care of my own business but the guns were dads and left to mom. I learned how to hunt very young. But I choose to kill animals for survival, not for fun. Therefore they have not been used in a good while. The guns were all in protective wrap and put away in the back of closets. No one knew where they were but.......yeah......one was without the wrap and was scratched up pretty bad. It had to have been when W went through the closet 'so called' packing things back in November.

“Wild animals never kill for sport. Man is the only one to whom the torture and death of his fellow creatures is amusing in itself.” James Anthony Froude


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> After the email I received last night, I guess I should update what happened Wednesday. House was still a mess...no shock. Any way the house, my parents owned and mom sold to us and left many things there was the setting.  She left dad's guns, four of them. Something told me.....check them. I found two. Mom asked me to double check......I did. So now mom is in the mix LOL........keeps getting better doesn't it........
> 
> Long story short, mom called her. Mom is.......well......she speaks her mind, all I can say. She informed her if she or her son have no knowledge of the two missing guns, the police will be involved. And.....well......knowing mom.......she added her two cents......."it will take $40k to clean this house up".... no response from her. But when I woke up that evening (I was asleep when she came in) and she was asleep....ironic the kitchen was cleaned and the house picked up....LOL.........not that it matters in the end, just irony
> 
> ...


In my teens my father found one of his handguns missing. He questioned us to see if any of his children knew anything about it and told us he was going to report it. Nobody admitted to it so he reported it stolen. 

It was located at a local pawn shop and it turned out it had been my brother. Due to this my father attempted to drop the charges. He could not and my brother did time (his own fault though, surely). 

I'm not saying your mom shouldn't report it. Just making you aware that (at least where we lived) the theft of a firearm is a serious charge and cannot be dropped once reported.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Eh......BigMac and Zillard looks to be right.......below is an email I received yesterday morning and opened this morning:

just wanted to say hi...i still want to be your friend.. xxxx check didn't come today.....

Good move W, use the excuse of his check to email me saying what you said. If deciphered correctly it should read "i miss you and don't have the audacity to say it' 

But it could also mean.......we can share our 64 crayon box with that cool sharpener in the back, you can cut in line in front of me for lunch or possibly......use my locker because it's closer to your classes.

In a way I would love to jump all over this and 'hope' but I can't. I have given advice to others and this time, I will take my own. -If she had the boldness to tell you it is over, she certainly has the boldness to repair the damage-

The window is still open.......the non-negotiable was not chat over coffee or french kissing. FCC/MC......she knows once I make up my mind, I will not waver. The choice is hers. There is no guarantee counseling will work. She has to face her own issues.......alone. I went to he!!.....I'm back......your turn madam?


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> But it could also mean.......we can share our 64 crayon box with that cool sharpener in the back, you can cut in line in front of me for lunch or possibly......use my locker because it's closer to your classes.


Hahaha! 



Chuck71 said:


> -If she had the boldness to tell you it is over, she certainly has the boldness to repair the damage-


So true. You didn't ask me to read between the lines when you shoved me out of the back of the truck. So why should I jump back in just cause you slowed it down a little? Stop the truck, get out, reach out your hand and offer to help me up! Or I'm walking home my dam self!


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Z-The trip her mother died on, I spoke on earlier......my mom and aunt was with her. The aunt passed away Thursday and is having her remembrance tonight. My aunt and her mom got along really well, five year age difference, both died at 77. In an abstract way I feel I should tell her but I won't. It was in the obits so I'm sure she saw it. But who knows......she is different as night and day now. I hope she does not show up. I think this reinforces the fact, she is not family anymore.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> Z-The trip her mother died on, I spoke on earlier......my mom and aunt was with her. The aunt passed away Thursday and is having her remembrance tonight. My aunt and her mom got along really well, five year age difference, both died at 77. In an abstract way I feel I should tell her but I won't. It was in the obits so I'm sure she saw it. But who knows......she is different as night and day now. I hope she does not show up. I think this reinforces the fact, she is not family anymore.


Sorry to hear about your aunt Chuck. Loss is never easy. 

As far as it reinforcing that she isn't family anymore, it probably will whether she goes or not. If she goes she will likely feel very awkward. 

Right before Xmas my sister and her family were in town and having a bday party for my niece. stbxw desperately wanted to go and wanted me to tell her if she should or not. I refused to make the decision for her. She kept saying she wanted to see her niece and nephew. I told her in 2 months they no longer will be. She didn't go.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

This is soo true, "they all come back at some point" just a matter of time.

We face the pain head on self-reflect learn to self-love, heal, and move foward.

We are in a better place to make decisions and problem solve, than "them"

Watch her dispassionalty from a distance chuck

If she really means it and want it, she will have to endure what you have.


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## TNman (Dec 24, 2012)

Chuck, sorry to hear about your aunt. Looks like you are making 'progress' in your journey of healing. Great. 

Mine seems to becoming more distant than ever as if she is mad at me for this disaster. Two days ago at my younger son's ball game I did sit next to her just because of our 27 year history and our son on the court. I didn't expect it to mean more than that-we exchanged some forced conversation on business issues without confrontation. But she kept her arms and legs clinched, was very fidgety, and turned her body away. She was very uncomfortable and it made me feel the same. I started to leave but didn't-said hi and bye to my son after the game and left. I was thinking when her feelings for me got to zero that would be it(especially since she initiated this)-but it seems that I am going below zero now. I just don't get it I reckon


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Stick to your guns Chuck. Get the acknowledgement you deserve and if you do get it don't act like a school boy getting his first piece of a$$. Thats a reference to what happened to me. LOL


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Well the plot thickens..... Below is an email from W from a few days ago and I opened yesterday.

......thanks for paying lights..also..after the divorce or even before its final if you would like to take me out..that would be nice..i still love you..just not like im suppose too..never know a flame cud light back up..its up to u..................



-light bill is in my name and they have a $150 re-connection fee, as much as she may see this as charity, it wasn't. I will draw that money out of the account when she is paid.

-the last time I looked...she wanted out when all this happened. So what's with the 'it's up to you'?

-after Christmas it was date after the D, now it's maybe even before D

-so I was the one who had their heart broken but I'm the one who should be trying to solve things? Maybe a female can explain this to me.

-I guess my non-negotiable has not been acknowledged.



...........The sands are shifting but I don't need to turn this into a power struggle. My thought is not to email her back until maybe next week. That way I will know if she thought paying the lights and water was a 'gift'. If she is cool with me drawing it out from her check, email. If she gets upset, no email, remain NC and realize she may have wrote that email thinking I was trying to buy her affection (which was NOT the case).


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

She is reaching just a little bit further ...lol


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Of course it is up to you to fix it! 

Otherwise she is responsible. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

She is perfectly capable of planning and asking you out on a date if she wants one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

I think we are in similar boats Chuck. We want are wives to face the music. Either SHOW me what you want or move along. Do not play these control games with me anymore. I am not playing.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

I forgot the anchor, she forgot to set the sails. She sank the ship. I'm expecting more, am I too hard headed? How can I pull survivors to the island when I am one myself? I have the good guy on one shoulder and the IDGAF on the other. They both sound enticing.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> Well the plot thickens..... Below is an email from W from a few days ago and I opened yesterday.
> 
> ......thanks for paying lights..also..after the divorce or even before its final if you would like to take me out..that would be nice..i still love you..just not like im suppose too..never know a flame cud light back up..its up to u..................
> 
> ...


She's mind fking you mixed with not taking responsibility. Reeling you in to see if she still has her hooks in you. You know this...

I don't love you like I used too but who knows a flame could start...."" 
C'mon....I just threw up in my mouth a little....nothing like ....you can do this for me (take me out...pay my bills) ...'maybe'...I will feel the way about you the way you want me too...

I don't like it. But I'm protective over you


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

TNman said:


> Chuck, sorry to hear about your aunt. Looks like you are making 'progress' in your journey of healing. Great.
> 
> Mine seems to becoming more distant than ever as if she is mad at me for this disaster. Two days ago at my younger son's ball game I did sit next to her just because of our 27 year history and our son on the court. I didn't expect it to mean more than that-we exchanged some forced conversation on business issues without confrontation. But she kept her arms and legs clinched, was very fidgety, and turned her body away. She was very uncomfortable and it made me feel the same. I started to leave but didn't-said hi and bye to my son after the game and left. I was thinking when her feelings for me got to zero that would be it(especially since she initiated this)-but it seems that I am going below zero now. I just don't get it I reckon



hi tn , sorry about the ball game , sounds pretty damn irresponsible of her .
but i've wondered myself just how we're suppose to go to these things now and act when we're there.

mt daughter had her first ever band concert at the hall just before Xmas.
we sat together , even though 1/2 the town were there and all her new friends amongst them that all know she's destroyed our marriage.
i had no idea how to handle it but i decided it's about my daughter and she'd hate her parents sitting there in front of everyone looking hateful. which at this stage i still was.
so i talked and that allowed us to talk and be reasonable , we watched her band , left together still talking.
in the end i thought fk them all and fk her , this is for my daughter.
i was sorta pleased i went that way - for my daughter and hey , her band was unreal.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> Eh......BigMac and Zillard looks to be right.......below is an email I received yesterday morning and opened this morning:
> 
> just wanted to say hi...i still want to be your friend.. xxxx check didn't come today.....
> 
> ...



chuck , mate i think it means 

" hey where's my fg check look i'm still being friendly and everything , so get it to me now will ya "


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> She is reaching just a little bit further ...lol


but why gutpunch , what the fk does she actually want ?

or is it again maybe really about money and light bills ?


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> but why gutpunch , what the fk does she actually want ?
> 
> or is it again maybe really about money and light bills ?



That's the million dollar question.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

whitehawk said:


> but why gutpunch , what the fk does she actually want ?
> 
> or is it again maybe really about money and light bills ?


The best answer to that question that I've found is this:

She has no fvckin clue what she really wants!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

zillard said:


> The best answer to that question that I've found is this:
> 
> She has no fvckin clue what she really wants!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



yeah , bout it eh z !


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Okay........here's how it went. She emailed me this morning:

are you goin to help ob car ins...by the time i pay one car payment XXXs caepr payment (son) a 100.00 of brother's money that I had to use xxxx loan..I will barely have enough to live on next two weeks..unless xxx's check comes...they re issuing another one..and ways i have that xxx loan due next week...just wondering...i know it will come out today at bank...you got ur card with court date. its on the desk....bye

reply

lights and water was not my cash. my check went to xxxxxxx. they were ready to cancel policy. i'm having to chip in where I stay sometimes.
215 lights
20 water
235-45 my end of car insurance
190-35 xxxxx
155
did you get your card too? bye

Will give thoughts later. Just wanted to update. Yeah I have two unread emails from her after I sent this. I bet she is stewing on the couch....with all those nasty dogs.....chain smoking....eating high fat foods with onset of diabetes......the smell of poop in the house........with high blood pressure............wondering why I can't give a damn. I would have done anything for her.........notice "have"

Stella LOL t/y for your response......always like a female's view of things, aka through her eyes


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> Okay........here's how it went. She emailed me this morning:
> 
> are you goin to help ob car ins...by the time i pay one car payment XXXs caepr payment (son) a 100.00 of brother's money that I had to use xxxx loan..I will barely have enough to live on next two weeks..unless xxx's check comes...they re issuing another one..and ways i have that xxx loan due next week...just wondering...i know it will come out today at bank...you got ur card with court date. its on the desk....bye


Next time simply reply: 

No.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

1/3 of car ins. is on me........it's an auto w/d.......i have not given her a red cent since this blew up in early Nov.........that's a game, i don't play


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> 1/3 of car ins. is on me........it's an auto w/d.......i have not given her a red cent since this blew up in early Nov.........that's a game, i don't play


Oh I didn't mean not to pay what you are obligated to pay. Just meant you don't need to explain anything else. 

What you have to pay for you is none of her business anymore.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Thursday night I went to the lake (oh crap another lake story) and reviewed what my IC said. She thought maybe by saying..i still love you..just not like im suppose too... was her way of saying she wants to talk or reach out. She recommended going out on a date with her. She indicated she is seeking that freshness, the spark we felt when we met. Meet her needs and set yours aside and she will start fulfilling yours.

OK.......I really considered this.....for about three hours. I'm not the one who started everything. If she wants freshness....try stopping the games. I feel with certainty I laid all my cards on the table. I made it completely clear I wanted things to work out but FCC/MC would have to start before the D. She's known this for several weeks. Maybe she think she overplayed her hand and can not admit anything.............Ahhhh well admitting is part of the process. Somewhat akin to she had a part in the M slowly becoming mundane. Finances had a part too. But it is ironic no matter what I made, it was only enough to get by. Your spending always matched my net pay. In the beginning we always had money to do things and neither of us had high paying jobs. The irony....
Why should I ask her on a date? I can't even get her to go to MC. Maybe there is a sense of what I will say to the MC. If the worst thing I ever did is drink too much, I guess my plate wasn't that dirty. But let's reflect on why I drank.....always piling up bills from her spending, her EA, desperately seeking work towards the end (funny though she liked it when I was around the house to help with housework and the kitchen), no emotional connection nor affection from her (not even attempts), and of sheer boredom because you would sit on that nasty couch with those five dogs. Anytime I would try to get near her the dogs would jump and bounce all around her. Yeah that's a mood enhancer.

I guess she thinks I would be like McDonald's and let her have it her way. She will be fuming when I pull the lights and water out of her account. But she has all these illusions of living on her own....she think she's going to without paying lights and water? It will not take long for her to hit bottom financially. Two outcomes......trying to return to me (but for what reason.....hmmm) or sell herself to some guy who can put a roof over her head. Hope he doesn't expect her to pick up after herself.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

The suspense was too much. I went ahead and opened the emails. One heading was very leading. She realized what I did this morning. Oh yeah...she was very PO'd. Now I can level up the true intent of her email a few days ago. Apparently she thought I would turn into an ATM. She thought it was completely sorry of me to draw that money out. That's funny....it took her until the next day to realize it after I told her yesterday? She thought I was actually going to pay the bills at the house, I'm not at but maybe one day total a week?

-how she did without things during the M.......no hun you never did without...see debt. That's funny, during 'the talk' you told me I was a wonderful provider for her, her son and her mother.

-said when her brothers check comes in "i will be out"
Does this check her brother is getting have magical powers? She acts as such. Oh she's going to skim off the top. She can talk a big game now. Funny how she seems to act opposite when she has no money. If she simply caught up on her bills and secured an apartment....that money will be gone.

-proceeded to remind me of all my faults
Ahhhh.......yes.....my misgivings. I suppose she still thinks she is without sin. Makes me want to buy her a cross so the next time she feels unappreciated or neglected she can go nail herself to it. This is the part where she actually knows she is about to have her walls close in. It's the black cat's last stand. She got her claws out in this email. Now I shall sit back and watch her realize.....it did not get a rise out of me. Granted I would love to reply with "There are two sides to every story" but would I recommend anyone else to do it? I wouldn't.

-The reason why she has NSF charges again (LOL) is because......I have the bills (due date, log in name, passwords) lined up on the computer I took. Since I did not give those to her she could not pay them and got......NSF charges? The he!! you say! Sorry but if you're not paying your bills and having NSF charges there is a good chance you would not have paid them anyway. She gets the mail......there are #'s to call on each bill. You sure can call those #s when you see if there is any available credit remaining. Why didn't you email me for the payment info....you email me almost daily anyway? I have nothing to gain from withholding info about her bills. She doesn't remind me when things are due (doesn't need to), why should I remind her? But I should be fearful, she has her brother's check coming......brrrr....GTFOH.

In retrospect, yes it does amaze me at her scatterbrained actions. The email stung a bit but it did cast a light on her sweet email from the few days prior. On one hand it hurts to see her act this way but....this is her....without the mask. The words spewed.....bothered me but it gives me a great deal of closure. It lets me know I could have been working for a F100 company but still we would barely get by. I'm as good as my last paycheck.....hmmmm. Add that to her other faults and what's in it for me?


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> I'm as good as my last paycheck.....hmmmm. Add that to her other faults and what's in it for me?


Yes, you are the white knight and the villain all rolled into one... depending on her mood and the depth of her despair. 

I'm getting that too. Sunday morning I receive "fvck you" emails. Thursday I get "please" and "thank you" and she tells me I shouldn't move soon because she'll be "stuck" if I do. 

She fails to see that I have no reason to stay. She has given me none. In fact, the opposite. Maybe is because in counseling I admitted to still feeling love for her. 

I love my junky cousin too... but he's not welcome in my house.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Yeah......I can pretty much see what's going to happen. Court date is two weeks away. I predict three days prior........'what happened to us?'...........Well you see that folder on the coffee table...it's a non-negotiable. Been there since last month. I didn't write it for practicing quality penmanship. 

Z, I think as you read my thread and as I read yours, we are in the better situation. I'm glad she is skimming her brother (hate it he's the victim) for it lets her think 'I can make it!'. That money will disappear in no time. I'll be back at the house, cleaning it up, new locks, new life. 

I can see her being a common re-appearance for a short while. She had the chance.......thought she could just ferry along and return any time. She over estimated herself. At least I am near check mate.

Z-Obviously she's in the spin cycle. But do you love her or who she was? Amazing how little thought some put into doing something which loses them a spouse and kids. But if it was a new sundress for Easter maybe they'd more thought into that?


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> But do you love her or who she was?


Good question that is hard to answer.

I miss who she was; or who I thought she was. I have no desire to be with who she is now. 

I do care about her, regardless of who she is or what she does. I care about her level of happiness and her well being. But those things are up to her and completely out of my control. I took responsibility for that when I should not have. No longer.

Her good qualities attract me. But she refuses to see those things in herself which results in actions that hurt herself and others. And that I find repulsive.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

I want to thank the ones who have followed my thread and the one previous. I would like to add.... to the original threads I posted in early November.....the ones who read and responded...thank you. Thank you for the input and support. It is very different to give advice than live through it yourself, evident in my posts and my advice.

The date for final is 2/1. I am NC minus business but do spot check the house she is at; which I will obtain after final. Tomorrow I will rip my non-negotiable from the tablet left on the coffee table since a couple days after Christmas. I will go NC on TAM concerning my D upcoming until it is final. I will log daily journals and post them after it occurs.

I already know the end game but wish for it to be wrought with privacy as it unfolds. I'm playing my hunch now and disregarded my IC. To feel so strong about foreseeing the outcome is somewhat relevant but mysterious. Everything will slide into logic when it has unfolded. Again, thank each and every one of you who read and posted. I will see you on 2/1/2013.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> I want to thank the ones who have followed my thread and the one previous. I would like to add.... to the original threads I posted in early November.....the ones who read and responded...thank you. Thank you for the input and support. It is very different to give advice than live through it yourself, evident in my posts and my advice.
> 
> The date for final is 2/1. I am NC minus business but do spot check the house she is at; which I will obtain after final. Tomorrow I will rip my non-negotiable from the tablet left on the coffee table since a couple days after Christmas. I will go NC on TAM concerning my D upcoming until it is final. I will log daily journals and post them after it occurs.
> 
> I already know the end game but wish for it to be wrought with privacy as it unfolds. I'm playing my hunch now and disregarded my IC. To feel so strong about foreseeing the outcome is somewhat relevant but mysterious. Everything will slide into logic when it has unfolded. Again, thank each and every one of you who read and posted. I will see you on 2/1/2013.


I wish you the best these next couple weeks Chuck. Looking forward to hearing about your journey and how it unfolded.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Chuck don't you 180 us. I rely on you for support.


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## stilllookingup (Oct 29, 2012)

Good luck Chuck, stay strong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

Chuck, keep your head held high and feet firmly planted on the ground.

Good luck and look foward to hearing from you!


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

End game..........0830.....5/99 to 2/13........


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

0830. Is that the time or your prison #?


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

I'm so sorry Chuck. It pains me to no bitter end. A promise is made to ride things out through the ups and downs; sacrifices are made - you devote incredible amount of time and effort and the end result is a piece of paper telling you that your marital relationship is over. Its a sh*tty hand, no question. 

But its your time now. She didn't value you or what you bring to the table? Its time to find a woman who does and always will.

Sharpen up in the areas that need to be worked on and you'll be off the market in no time - if that's what you desire.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lee101981 (Sep 6, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> I'm so sorry Chuck. It pains me to no bitter end. A promise is made to ride things out through the ups and downs; sacrifices are made - you devote incredible amount of time and effort and the end result is a piece of paper telling you that your marital relationship is over. Its a sh*tty hand, no question.
> 
> But its your time now. She didn't value you or what you bring to the table? Its time to find a woman who does and always will.
> 
> ...


I totally agree that a promise is made to ridge things out through the ups and downs


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

She losing a good one. Not many men are willing to step over dog sh** to give their woman a hug. She's gonna have a hard time without you.

This is your time now.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

Hang in there, it does get better down the road


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Update I

The crossroads are almost complete. By the last posting of her reaction about me withdrawing the cash to repay on the lights and water....was not what I wanted to hear but what I needed to hear. She later emailed 'she was all good and wished she could unsend the email." The backtracking began the next morning (this is why I went dark to everyone....I foresaw it). She wanted to express her sympathies for my aunt who passed away....over a week ago. She reads the obits daily, always did. Therefore this was her way of trying to put her foot in the door. I remained quiet and watched everything I have set up go forth as planned.

Almost on cue she emailed me a couple days later, this time asking if she could use my tele in the bedroom to replace the one in the den (her mother purchased....if you see the pattern....either her mother or me would buy things for her, never her buying for her mom nor me) until she finds a place. I did not respond. Personally she has her smartphone jammed up her a$$ and is enslaved to it. Why would you need a tele?

I did my spot check Wednesday and left an email I want to have her mother's remembrance DVD (has the songs and slideshow) to view. The reason behind this is I will never see it again. She will eventually lose it, like anything else she has. Yet another reason is to express my seriousness about this being final. The non-negotiable was torn out and threw in the trash. You can bet your arse she noticed it. She is able to view my FB page. That was done for a reason. Another dynamic is set in play.

Each night I am forcing myself to re-live a bad and good moment. I am still amazed at how some things are playing out EXACTLY the way the two main characters in my three book novel unfolded (book 3). But when you feel strongly you already know what actions will be taken before they occur, why should I be amazed.

As a writer you sometimes have to release yourself from your own thought and imagine yourself as the lead character, gender irregardless. I am now interacting myself as her and the way she would initiate and react to things. You know your spouse a lot better than you realize when everything is clearly on the table. She has yet to mention anything more about the withdrawal as of Wednesday 1/23.

There will be an expressed bravado when her brother's check arrives. It will be short lived. After she adds up how much it will take to catch up on her car and her son's, that is the first wave of reality. With several more to come.

In closing for my Sunday 1/20 to Wednesday 1/23 update, I wish to share not each daily thought on the good and bad but one. In 2006 she was attending college and not working. She had run up debt and was forced to get a part time job. She was very upset about this. At the time I was working as a licensed teacher. Any one who knows a teacher knows, your 8-4 job never ends at 4. If you take any pride in your students learning, you take work home with you. Anyhow I was having to drive her to work due to whatever new illness she had (maybe working?) and she told me I needed to get an additional part time job. She should not have to work 16 hours a week and go to college WOW. I informed her that I was not getting a part time job. She told me to turn the car around and take her home and we needed to get a divorce. Long story short....I turned around immediately and said 'if that is what you want.' Within five minutes she was back stepping as fast as she could.
We were planning to take a vacation in 1998, we were nearing our one year anniversary and pretty much knew.....neither was going anywhere. I had already fallen....farther than I ever had before. It was near her birthday too and to do a 1-2 punch, I went by and paid her monthly bills (just basic lights, water, cable, and something else....we were living together by then). She was getting paid right before we left and she was worried about having enough money to spend on vacation after she paid her bills and I paid my own. She added up how much would be left and was telling me about the amount as we were sitting outside watching the sunset. I waited a bit and told her, 'don't worry about your bills, I have all those covered. you can apply your entire check to the trip.' She was stunned. She told me "You are the greatest person I have ever met. I love you. I can't really tell you how much you have taken my heart. I don't ever want us to end. I never thought there were guys out there like you." Yeah that evening I felt like a king.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> Update I
> 
> The crossroads are almost complete. By the last posting of her reaction about me withdrawing the cash to repay on the lights and water....was not what I wanted to hear but what I needed to hear. She later emailed 'she was all good and wished she could unsend the email." The backtracking began the next morning (this is why I went dark to everyone....I foresaw it). She wanted to express her sympathies for my aunt who passed away....over a week ago. She reads the obits daily, always did. Therefore this was her way of trying to put her foot in the door. I remained quiet and watched everything I have set up go forth as planned.
> 
> ...


Seems like you took on a parental role, which only encouraged her irresponsibility and left you more invested than she.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Update II

Thursday 1/24 to Sunday 1/27

Thursday began with friendly emails about using her mother's video. Then......the anger. Her bank account is now in the red in less than one week. Does not get paid until 2/1. So my $155 kept her from paying $450 and $265 on her car and her son's. Actually the negative balance is more than the $155 so even had I not withdrew the needed cash, it still would be negative. The house is such a mess but it does tell me, I kept a pretty good house when I was there.

Her emails are going from demands to wants to needs. The next step is begging and pleading. It does hurt to see her in this state. I do not love her as in the moment anymore but yes, if it was a black or white question, I would say yes. I still loved my 2nd g/f when she and I met. It had been over (my choice) for eight months but I still carried emotions for her after five plus years. I was well aware of those feelings when it hit me, here is your next "season" you now must close the door on GF #2. It was so easy to do because.....the love she offered was intoxicating.

I had been talking to someone for awhile, as the D was unfolding. My thought was to not date her until the D was final, simply out of respect. After I threw away the non-negotiable, we went out. It was very nice. Do I see anything down the road with this person? It does not matter, I am not ready to jump into anything else right now. But it was nice to be around someone positive and upbeat. She is not in any hurry for anything so that works great for me.

Now W is worried about her brother's check not arriving before the D is final. Now she asked me if I will kick her out if the D occurs before the check comes. Honestly I think the check has already arrived, this is a "reach". When I ripped out the non-negotiable, it meant there are no tomorrows. I do not see a future with her but can I say that 100%? I really can't say but the wreckage will remind me of what took place. If I saw her at the store with another guy a month later, would it bother me? Yes I think it would. That was the woman I planned on spending 50 years with. But the newer version, I will not miss.

In 1998 I had turned my ankle and was to be off of it a couple days. She was working a Saturday and I was off. She spent a ton of 'attention to detail' to set me up with a -man cave- of arched pillows, chilled beer, snacks and old video games to take up the time while she was gone. It was one of those "ya know....the only other person who would go to this much trouble for you...is your mom" moments. I already knew I was going to ask her but this was a reinforcing moment. I could never stop loving who she was then if I tried. Being an author I have thought many times about writing the story of our first few years. As I wrote this, I still have goose bumps. It does not appear as such now but at one time, I lived a dream.

In 2007 she made a comment to (of all people, my mother) mom if she divorced me, I would have to pay her alimony. Simply because I was working and she was chasing her dream of being a biology major. Nice to know! She changed majors three times and never took a junior or senior class. Her student loans were exhausted. So much for the degree!


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

For some reason that post was heart wrenching to me. Chuck my thoughts and prayers are with you. Like I said before she is definitely losing a good man and husband.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Final Update to D

Monday 1/28 to Thursday 1/31

A few emails but not as in the past. She did say her brother's check arrived and it will be cashed this coming Tuesday. She said if I wanted her out right after the final, she would stay with friends. No reply. Things unfolded almost to plan but not exactly I guess. I can't believe it is over. 1999 to 2012....today I guess that is a pretty good run. I've had flashbacks to the day we married and how the first years went. So the evening before it is final...I really do not know what to say. I will give details of in the morning after it transpires.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

So sorry Chuck. Is truly unfortunate.

Let yourself grieve this chapter.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

D Day........... 2/1

I may have not mentioned it but the place I am staying most of the time, is rental property of mine. And the place she and I were married in and lived for six years. It never bothered me until Thursday night. I stood at the room we said our vows and our marital bedroom. Then I left and went out with the girl I mentioned. I have felt a cleansing lately. Maybe it is because I made more than enough attempts to work things through. She asked me before we went to see the judge why I have not called her. Or emailed her. Well....I think you spewed a bit of hatred over a couple emails so I chose not to engage.

-She did make me aware I needed a haircut. She offered to cut it and I asked how much. You know I wouldn't charge you. Awwwww........I'll pass
-Have you been able to go by the Dr? I said no. Here let me give you some pills until you can. Awwwwwww
-She was even able to squeeze in a we should get together sometime! Awwwwww
-Ya know, I enjoyed being out there alone! Yeah...pull my leg it plays jingle bells!

She is renting an apartment.....by the week. Well that's what she indicated. We agreed on all terms of D. Could not have went any smoother. We rode over and dropped my name from her checking (she added me when married....clears me of NSF charges). I came back to the apartment, had a few hard drinks. Dozed off, got ready and took the new girl out to eat. This board really would not be the place to go into detail about her but I will say, we enjoy one another's company. Same age, similar interests...at worst I can see a really nice friendship. Anything more......let time play its course.

A sense of irony has to be mentioned as in the beginning of the debacle, I was clueless and did not know what to do. As the conclusion came, it was her. Was I right in my predictions when I went dark? Yes but my predicted timing was a tad off. Yes I did live the dream a long time ago but as Pink Floyd sang, 'the child is grown....the dream is gone...' One nice thing was she openly admitted it was both of us who had a hand in the downfall. I guess the victim chair does not have the luster it once did. But Chuck.....ever think you two might get sentimental a couple months down the road?

Nah....the point of the guns missing was enough. But my grandfather collected mercury dimes and they were in several $10 rolls. When I went out last week...they were gone. The only ones who knew they were there was her and step-son. So two guns, one pistol, grandfather's coins (irreplaceable), heirloom wedding rings (irreplaceable), rope chain mom bought me when I graduated undergrad in '96 (irreplaceable). Readers....would you want to go back? The kicker is.....whether it be her or step-son....if they pawned the guns.....they will serve time. And I will show up at the sentencing. You give someone(s) anything they ever wanted and.....this is what you get. Nah......had my fill.

As I predicted, she plans to file Chapter 7 now D is final. Renting weekly....two paychecks away from being on the street. If she has a notion I will grab her hand as she sinks...not going to happen. I spent nearly sixteen years grabbing her hand. It's time to form a new relay team. I may throw a wrap before exiting this thread. I may flip to LAD but will definitely follow some threads to its end here (GTDoS). I will wait a few days and post the ending. But all in all, I am glad it's (almost) over. She indicated she will be out this coming weekend. Then it will be over. 


"Each friend represents a world in us, a world possibly not born until they arrive, and it is only by this meeting that a new world is born."-- Anais Nin


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

Chuck, trully hang in there and focus on getting your self out and happy. Do things that make you happy.

You deserve better than this and you are a better man now.

Come here and we will help you through this.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

How are you holding up Chuck?


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Before my final update I would like to throw a shout out to pop. He would have been 72 today. Still hard to believe my parents were once.....young
:lol:


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Happy bday chuck's pop! You raised a good one.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Chuck71 said:


> Before my final update I would like to throw a shout out to pop. He would have been 72 today. Still hard to believe my parents were once.....young
> :lol:


You out of here?


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Happy Birthday Pops!


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

He's headed to Life After Divorce.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

true but i'll still hang out in GTD......leave a few beer farts for the next guy!


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

CROSSROADS: COMPLETE

Unless anything changes dramatically, this portion of my life will come to a close. It is something I would not wish on my worst enemy. Strange as it is...I learned a lot about myself. But the old saying goes, leaders are born through adversity, not academics. TAM is top tier about giving advice. You have the ones who say things softly and ones who speak with 2x4's. You honestly need both of them and attempt to find an equilibrium.

Zill, GP, ReG....thank you! I could not have seen as much insight without your thoughts. I only hope I have helped you half as much as you have helped me. You will face the final, one by one. I survived; as will you. I think all of you have my #, call anytime. GP....we are nearby....the lake is calling......so are a fifth and several 26 y/o hotties LOL. I can see how veteran TAM'ers say, you form lasting friendships here. One small post....one word of encouragement. Alas, it is simply the journey and not the destination. Two roads meet. Paths are crossed. One may be filled with love, the other filled with questions. Yo Chuckie.....wadda bout da she 'a comin 'round? Ehh...I saw it beforehand, the visual is clear, I admit I never thought in my life I would turn her away but...what shall be, will be. What if we had children? Whole different ballgame. No kids...I got off light.

She is exiting the house Saturday (2/9).....locks changed Sunday. I can't be sad, I gave her my heart and it was ripped away. Game is over. Another female is repairing it. Rebound? Funny this is asked...my IC from 1997 thought my ex W was rebound from 2nd love 1991-97. Maybe the IC never watched basketball. Do I still love her? Of course, there is a part I always will, and never hid this from new gal. She has been D before, she knows the score.

Since Friday (2/1), ex has been ultra nice. Offering to pay bills she otherwise thought I would. She rented her a place, by the week. Filed Chapter 13 but I promise, Chapter 7 is steaming ahead. After 13 and rent....lights / water included....one check away from nothing. Will she return for security? Bet the farm. It will not work. Believe me...when she sees I am with another person, skirt tails will be ruffled. But I am sorry, I wanted us to be the couple who lasted 50 years. You must have had other plans.

Ey yo dude.....she could have had an affair....whaddabowit? Funny this is asked....in the end.....she is alone and sad.....I have a chance at real love and children. Thank you? No.....thank her! Whether she did or did not. Weird as it may be, she is paying more attention to my well being than she has in years! Why so? Ahhh...measuring my child. Ehh...Danielson in good spot....will not divert.

Would you take a bullet for me? Summer '12....heck yes. Without a thought. Winter 12-13......ahhh.....I would not take a p!ss for you. Life's a b!tch isnt it? Don't get me wrong, you were made with God's hands.....firm yet delicate. Can this be replaced? Not for a long time....

Am I scared of my future? Oh yes....to say the least. We signed up to fight the world. Seems as if the world won. It didn't have to be this way. To transfer love is a hard thing to do. You feel 17 again! But I want it to be right each way. 

Before she drove away from the house Saturday, 9th, we spoke beforehand. I spoke as I did a long time ago. I proceeded to ask her what happened to her face. There were red bumps around her mouth and nose. Our/her doctor thinks it may be shingles....or simply put.....nerves. Hard to imagine I was like a small child scared to death, ala Pink Floyd video, when everything fell apart.

I can't explain what possessed me to step away from everything around the first of year. In a captured moment....I felt the draw into CS Lewis and Tao (Abolition of Man) and Neo in Matrix 3....the machine city. Everything was at stake but a calming effect spread. After a bit of reflection....I guess giving a detailed account of what happened no longer matters. It is done......it is written.

Do I hate her? No. Do I wish ill will? No. Do I want something to happen down the road? No. 100%? No. Do you still carry a piece of her with you? I always will...all in being human. Now that she is opening up about her emotional pitfalls, would you help her find treatment? No...she is a grown person. Does it bother you what she thinks of you, as a person? For some strange reason, it does. But one carves out their own path. A solid path defines others; whereas a questioned path is defined by others.

Tomorrow-2/15- will be 25 years since the botched surgery. Although it set limitations for me, it opened many avenues I do not think I would have discovered. GP / ReG....you see the road clear.....it leads to where you seek. Some things happen as you expect but not in the same order.....my ex never paid much attention to wedding pictures towards the end. At her new place, they are setting up. Odd.....yes; shocked....no.

Ex is now using the dogs as children, ala taking a few at a time. She is allowed two where she is staying and she wants to rotate five. In the beginning I have no problem with this. Slowly I plan to have a small kennel outside the fenced back yard and keep it latched but not locked. This way the transfer can soon be executed without any interaction. If the new girl and I work out....maybe she can deal with ex drama. I would never consider this in near future....that would put new gal on spot and me appear apprehensive of ex.

I guess I will begin a post in LaD. Not as much for my sanity but if I can show you can make it through and offer a bit of hope for ones who just hit the roller coaster...then its purpose was served. It is not a shame to learn, yet it is when you learn and are not willing to re-teach.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

I was feeling down in the dumps this morning - I read your post and its filled with so much positivity; it truly cheered me up. Crisis was staring at you and you refused to blink - more importantly, you want to learn more about yourself. You are and will continue to become a better person because of this adversity.

The W.A.S. might get the early start on LBS - but when the LBS recommits to themselves as you have - the gap quickly closes and in many cases, The LBS will surpass them in the growth department.

Thanks for the road map Chucky!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

I don't think I know what to do with a 26 year old hottie. Listen to rap music and watch the Kardashians. I think it would take that a fifth of liquor to get me through it.

Chuck, if it wasn't for your strength in crisis I believe I would have folded. Your example of steadfast determination inspired me to act like a MAN as well. Even if I have to raise my kids on my own, I will be proud of the man I am. Like you, I am beginning to see the light. I guess it takes time to emotionally detach. My end game is approaching as well. I will not waver.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

So it goes. 

Chuck, you've been an inspiration through this. A big help, truly. 

I'll see you in LaD soon.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

GutPunch said:


> I don't think I know what to do with a 26 year old hottie.


Punch,

I'm certain you'll think of something.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Punch,
> 
> I'm certain you'll think of something.



They say it's like riding a bike. In this case, a shiny new bike.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

You guys are all so strong. Chuck, you are a rock.

Inspirational


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

xoxoxoxoxo....


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## stilllookingup (Oct 29, 2012)

Hi Chuck,

I'm sorry (?) or happy for you that D is final. She did not come to senses as I had hoped but then that's what she gets. I'm an animal lover so I care more about her dogs than her to be honest. 

I know I don't even have to say this but take it slow with the new lady, and hope you will find somebody who can truly fulfill your heart... you deserve it

Wishing you all the best!!!


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/life-after-divorce/68462-crossroads-ii-way.html#post1484546


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Chuck, there's a real poet in you. Thanks for stopping by thread and chiming in with words of wisdom.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Just when you think you are out of the woods.......

"Ex-Wife: You never told me you filed your taxes. You said you would let me k ow when you drop them off and I can to. We needed to file together. I will have to go to xxx too he will either have to adjust yours or something. I just had mine filled out and since I worked all last year an d claimed u and me I will owe xxx. I don't have that to pay so we will have to go and you may have to amend yours. Something will have to be done. I can't pay that"

Egh.....not happening :lol: :rofl: 

Went by and had taxes done month ago. Re-sent her the email stating it. Although I see her actions as a lost child, part of me really wants to nail her to the wall. But Chuck...outside of personal satisfaction, what would this give you? Not a thing. And to be honest, after a 50k feet observation.... I am doing the exact thing I intended for her to do in December. To own her own emotions.

Group's journey really has helped me understand, if you have patience.... things will fall into place. For a brief second, I do feel pity for her. I have no reason to lie. But the choices we make in life have consequences. After ignoring the email for several days, I receive this

"Tell me what day will be good for you to meet at court house again. We will work to your schedule. Thanks." 

The signatures needed for the auto insurance to pay off the car due to wreck were not signed in proper place a couple weeks ago. I was sent a re-do copy and emailed her.

-I guess her getting the additional funds after car is paid off is to further enhance her fantasy or keep her from being homeless-BUT technically those funds are to be split between her son and I. I seek nothing but to get the title out of my name and wash my hands of it. She will BS her son out of it and have no intent to pay him back or may be he can have a moment of clarity and take the money and run. Oh....BTW her brother who she skimmed the $ from....he sent me a letter explaining he understood what happed and has no ill will against me. He will deal with his sister when he gets out next year. Eh.... chaos owning 101

-I guess attempting to file married but separate in hopes of getting a return all to herself and discovering she has to pay in was not to her liking-

Whenever her master plan falls by the wayside..... I get to hear her vent. I ignore until I receive the desired response. Only at that time will she receive a response.

I will post this in my old thread as well, if someone still on the roller coaster is facing this maneuver from their spouse or ex-spouse. My travel through Divorceland was quite mundane with very little fireworks. Sometimes that may be a good thing.

Oh....the ex has not been informed of the new phillie at Chuck's Farm.... I see no reason to say a word about it. As we guys know....she always finds out. May be a cute firework display will be seen at the end. 

Side note: Someday if I choose to sell this place, the D stipulates I received it. But I am aware I need to have a local title company draw up a new deed without her name on it. I'm curious if she refuses to sign it (shocker) would I have to force her into court for her sign-off?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Might be worth re-doing the taxes and having her sign a quit claim deed for the property in the process.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

She owes $2k, I'm getting back $1k.... i'll roll the dice and drag her fat a$$ to court if need be


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

zillard said:


> That is a tough one Chuck. I had the same one but I think I've answered it.
> 
> Stbxw also had a bad childhood. Her mother went from man to man before settling with a verbally and physically abusive one. A lot of conflict in the home.
> 
> ...


Profound truth


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