# women - how many of you intentionally withold??



## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

How many of you intentionally withhold sex because you feel like you arent getting enough affection? i mean for more than one week?
and was it because he was intentionally witholding affection??


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## SockPuppet (May 16, 2011)

Im not a woman, but Id bet a whole heck of a lot of them withhold sex subconsciously due to lack of affection.

Vice Versa for guys.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

u think its right?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Doesn't matter if it's right or wrong. It's death to a relationship, so it's not smart unless the intent is to destroy the marriage.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

2 months now.. shes resentful/angry...


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## SockPuppet (May 16, 2011)

Women need love and affection like Men need BJ's.

I generalize but you get the point.

It isnt right, it isnt wrong. It simply is. If she is withholding sex, because you arent affectionate, then maybe by holding out for a little more time she will start having sex again... Just not with you.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

thanks sockpuppet.. appreciate it


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## Reuben (May 24, 2011)

socal04 said:


> 2 months now.. shes resentful/angry...


Men want one basic thing in a marriage. That is to feel like they are important to the relationship. Women need one basic thing. They need to feel secure in a relationship.

There is a lack of communications. Ask her what the problem is. Never try to place blame or guilt. Remember, most men think analytically. Most women think with their heart, their feelings.

Say some like this. "Honey, I want to be a good husband but I sometimes think I'm not meeting your needs." "Would you help me understand what you need in our relationship?" Then just zip it and let her talk.

Does she tell you what she is resentful/angry about? Are you meeting her sexual needs..her emotional needs? 

Many men have the tendency to just roll over and turn out the lights after sex. Women want to be cuddled and held. They need the affection to feel secure.

Men are like dynamite. Light the fuse and pow, it is over with. Women are like crock pots/slow cookers. It takes time for them to warm up and time for them to cool down.

Neither of you should use sex as a weapon to get what you want. You don't have the right to refuse each other


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## tranquility (Mar 13, 2011)

I am NOW ... after 28 years of marriage. Though, he doesn't want it anyway, so does that even count? Too much anger and resentment built up over all the wasted years ...


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

My husband withheld sex when he wasn't getting enough affection. This isn't just a female thing. But it wasn't just affection it was love, adoration, the whole package. If I'm honest with myself he was right. I didn't really care about him. I was a selfish user and he resented me for that. Go figure. LOL!


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## MGirl (Mar 13, 2011)

I won't withhold, but I won't want to initiate anything if I'm not getting any affection. And if I'm expected to go all day with zero affection and then suddenly be fired up and ready to go by the end of the day...not likely to happen. Like I said, I won't withhold, but I won't be able to really get into it. Not by choice, it's just how most women's bodies are wired.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

what do most women define as affection?


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

how long can someone turn down sex before it becomes 'withholding?'

If dh wants it every night, and dw gives in, say, every other night, is she 'withholding?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I like respect but if my wife disrespects me, that doesn't give me license to hit her. Abuse, either physically or by neglect is always the responsibility of the abuser. Withholding is abusive.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

isnt sex the #1 need for a man and affection the #1 need for a woman. i would think anyone that INTENTIONALLY withholds is jacked up


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

socal04 said:


> isnt sex the #1 need for a man and affection the #1 need for a woman. i would think anyone that INTENTIONALLY withholds is jacked up


But in many cases its the only thing that wakes people up. I also don't think they intentionally withhold it's just more they don't want to because their spouse quit investing in the relationship years before that.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

maybe ur right


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## MGirl (Mar 13, 2011)

socal04 said:


> what do most women define as affection?


Check out this thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/23257-non-sexual-touching-critical.html


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

socal04 said:


> maybe ur right


If that's the case for you it could be a long cold winter unless you start manning up and humbly acknowleding your part in the demise of your marriage. That is why she feels like she doesn't have to work on the marriage as she feels you haven't done your part yet. Are you in individual counseling to learn how you can change without her? Thats what I'm doing because I totally get that I'm the biggest reason my marriage got off track.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

i have been in counseling for 2 months now and doing MAX work.. and have apologized several times.... shes holding on to resentment from YEARS ago.. seems stuck...


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## tranquility (Mar 13, 2011)

magnoliagal said:


> But in many cases its the only thing that wakes people up. I also don't think they intentionally withhold *it's just more they don't want to because their spouse quit investing in the relationship years before that*.


EXACTLY magnoliagal ... you've described exactly the way I'm feeling about it. Though I guess now I AM intentionally withholding bc I said in a counseling session a couple of weeks ago that there would be no more sex period. I don't even want it anymore. And he had nothing to say and hasn't brought it up since ... so that alone tells me everything I need to know. 

I never in my life thought my marriage would end up this way ....


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

MGirl said:


> Check out this thread:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/23257-non-sexual-touching-critical.html


good post.. thx


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

During the marriage ceremony, both pledged their bodies to the other, to the exclusion of all others. Nothing in that was ambiguous and nothing in that agreement included the words, "as long as I feel like it or he/she blows sufficient powder sugar up my backside." Nobody needs a marriage agreement if their obligations are dependant upon feely giddy. "I'll attend to your sexual needs as long as you look 20, stay in perfect shape, never piss me off, never disappoint me, never lose your job, never get sick, etc."


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

great point..


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If spouse are to be excused from their marital obligations when they feel they aren't receiving sufficient emotional support, then we should also excuse spouses who justify committing adultary using the same logic.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

your right


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

as mad as i have been over the years from time to time i have never withheld anything intentionally.


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## tranquility (Mar 13, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> During the marriage ceremony, both pledged their bodies to the other, to the exclusion of all others. Nothing in that was ambiguous and nothing in that agreement included the words, "as long as I feel like it or he/she blows sufficient powder sugar up my backside." Nobody needs a marriage agreement if their obligations are dependant upon feely giddy. "I'll attend to your sexual needs as long as you look 20, stay in perfect shape, never piss me off, never disappoint me, never lose your job, never get sick, etc."


For me, none of that is true. I've never ever once rejected him in all our years together. But for him to initiate only once every 2 or 3 months ... well, in my mind that's the same as rejection since I never felt wanted or desired. I've been a good wife ... worked full-time as a teacher our whole marriage, kept a clean house, stayed in shape ... no-one believes I'm 50. But when you're staying for your anniversary weekend at a lovely hotel on a lake and your H's idea of a great night is to come back to the room and watch tv ... well, something's wrong with this picture. 

I used to initiate but stopped bc I couldn't deal with the chance of rejection. Sex just wasn't something that was important to him. And there has never, ever been any kind of intimacy other than intercourse ... totally vanilla on the rare occasions when it DID happen. 

I read the posts on here about husbands that cherish physical intimacy with their wives and want it every day ... it just makes me so sad and depressed that I have to stop reading. I wanted that with my H ... still do. But I know now that I'll never have it. It's just not in him to be that way.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> During the marriage ceremony, both pledged their bodies to the other, to the exclusion of all others. Nothing in that was ambiguous and nothing in that agreement included the words, "as long as I feel like it or he/she blows sufficient powder sugar up my backside." Nobody needs a marriage agreement if their obligations are dependant upon feely giddy. "I'll attend to your sexual needs as long as you look 20, stay in perfect shape, never piss me off, never disappoint me, never lose your job, never get sick, etc."


It's not this simple. If I treat my husband like crap for years then I can totally see where he isn't exactly thrilled to have sex with me. I emasculated and desexualized him. This wasn't about him feeling less than giddy it was me destroying his manhood.

This isn't always the case but it was in mine. Knowing what I know now I don't blame him one bit for doing what he did.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

socal04 said:


> 2 months now.. shes resentful/angry...


So giver her more attention and affection?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I'm just guessing that your wife doesn't consistently and completely fulfill each and every one of your dreams and longings, either. Anyone who gets married does so to a flawed human being. Why would we imagine we deserve perfection from our mates when none of us are perfect? Too pissed off to be a husband or wife? Go to court and put the marriage to sleep, don't simmply transfer your mate from "lover" to "hostage" status.


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## tranquility (Mar 13, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> I'm just guessing that your wife doesn't consistently and completely fulfill each and every one of your dreams and longings, either. Anyone who gets married does so to a flawed human being. Why would we imagine we deserve perfection from our mates when none of us are perfect? Too pissed off to be a husband or wife? Go to court and put the marriage to sleep, *don't simmply transfer your mate from "lover" to "hostage" status.*


He was NEVER a lover ...


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

Mom6547 said:


> So giver her more attention and affection?


been doing that but she said it was too much...


i think "UNBELIEVABLE" staments are correct


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

I don't believe there is such a thing as intentionally withholding sex. I think people have to understand that a woman needs to be MADE to want sex in most cases and that a woman can be made to NOT want sex. 

I realize it seems intentional to men since all he needs is for her to spread her legs and let him in. But it's not that simple. If she feels neglected, disrespected, resentful, angry, mistreated, taken for granted, taken advantage of, etc., then her body chemistry releases hormones that not only prevent her from wanting sex but actually make her feel repulsed by him. Those hormones are called pheromones and believe me, they can make her sick by just the thought of you touching her. 

There are several different types of pheromones that serve different purposes. The sexual arousal/sexual attractant pheromones are the hormones excreted to ATTRACT the opposite sex and to arouse desire in females but work in reverse on the host when she is negatively affected in emotional ways. So, if you want sex and you want her to WANT you, then you better get on your j-o-b and learn how the female psyche works.

If a woman can say she has never felt inclined to reject him, then that's great because she's saying he has never inflicted that kind of mental/emotional harm - he's never evoked those pheromones that trigger her emotional survival instincts. 
This theory is not to be confused with the fact that when people are emotionally devastated, they tend to want to feel an even stronger sexual attraction to their offender. That kind of pain makes it feel like love grows stronger, more intense, and more desperate, such as in cases of discovering an affair or breakup of the relationship.

At the same time, a woman needs to feel loved and worth his time and attention. If you withhold affection, she doesn't want you. But that also should not be confused with deliberately withholding sex. If a man does not make her feel loved and worthwhile, then she feels used by him for the purpose of sex. She feels objectified because you made her feel like an object for your pleasure. No one likes feeling used or objectified.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

there was some affection just not as much as she wanted. other than that i provide for ALL her needs.. she hasnt worked in 12 years also.

becuase she doesnt give me sex does that give me right to stop paying the bills? of course not. even though sex is a actual physical need.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I can only base my response on anecdotal information from all the married women I know. 

100%.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

river1977 obviously i realize feelings have to be there for sex.. thats not rocket science and no its not always the mans fault or the man bieng retarted. no sh*t she needs to feel special


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I'm clear on phermones. I'm also clear on hormones. She expects me to behave as a husband and not be a slave to my hormones. I Even if she gains 50 lbs and I find her somewhat repulsive, I will take care of business cause that's what I agreed to do. It may not feel natural at first, but I also won't feel naturally eager to change her drawers when she's 90 and incontinent. Commitment means even though I feel like buying a Harley, I pay bills instead. Even though the hottie at work wants to go to a hotel with me, I go home instead. The whole purpose of a marriage contract is to have a means of compelling performance when one or both parties doesn't feel like it. Anyone can act lovingly when they feel loving. No need to get married to have that.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

i agree.. love needs to be given for the sake of love not to get a return.. which means i be the best me i can and uphold alll my responsibilities to include learning how to show more affection but she needs to do her part also... i agree with u


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Anyone with a functioning mouth or hand is capable of giving sexual relief if they choose to do so. People may choose to be abusive withholders but they should at least be honest about what they are.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> The whole purpose of a marriage contract is to have a means of compelling performance when one or both parties doesn't feel like it. Anyone can act lovingly when they feel loving. No need to get married to have that.


Doesn't sound much like a loving relationship if that's what it's all about.


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## tranquility (Mar 13, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> *Anyone with a functioning mouth or hand is capable of giving sexual relief if they choose to do so.* People may choose to be abusive withholders but they should at least be honest about what they are.


Exactly ... and my husband never chose to do so. It sounds to me like some folks here think that one spouse should "offer him/herself up for sex" regardless of whether or not feelings of love are there anymore out of some sense of duty or obligation. If I did that I'd feel like no better than a prostitute. 

I wish I could make people understand what it feels like to be with a man who shows absolutely no desire, EVER. Knowing that most men would kill for a warm and willing wife who never said no ... I spent YEARS thinking there must be something wrong with ME ... and that has permanently affected my self-esteem. 

We're in counseling now and he says he's trying. I have no idea what that means because I've seen not one bit of change. So to protect myself from anymore hurt ... and yes, I'll admit it - I'm feeding my resentment now because I WANT to ... I've told him I don't want sex anymore. He's off the hook. We will live the rest of our lives in a sexless marriage. He said nothing then and 2 weeks later still hasn't mentioned it. So why would I even WANT to try anymore? And what river said earlier is absolutely true ... when I think about sex anymore ... with him or anyone else ... I actually start to panic. So I'm kinda in a bad place now. You really want me to offer myself up to him NOW?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> Doesn't sound much like a loving relationship if that's what it's all about.


What could be more loving than showing tenderness, compassion, and service to someone even though you don't feel like it? To give your coat to your wife even though you're cold? To give the last bit of food to your wife even though you're hungry? Any fool can love someone who's lovable, remove their coat when it's warm, or refuse food when they aren't hungry. Love is putting someone else's needs first. If it's all dictated by giddy emotions, why the need for a promise at all? Why get the church or the law involved? If folks intend to be husband or wife only on the days they feel like it, their marriage is doomed.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

that level of love is serious business... thats deep... but its what we all need.


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## tranquility (Mar 13, 2011)

socal04 said:


> that level of love is serious business... thats deep... but its what we all need.



:iagree:


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

great point ...


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> What could be more loving than showing tenderness, compassion, and service to someone even though you don't feel like it? To give your coat to your wife even though you're cold? To give the last bit of food to your wife even though you're hungry? Any fool can love someone who's lovable, remove their coat when it's warm, or refuse food when they aren't hungry. Love is putting someone else's needs first. If it's all dictated by giddy emotions, why the need for a promise at all? Why get the church or the law involved? If folks intend to be husband or wife only on the days they feel like it, their marriage is doomed.


I get this. But that (above) seems far away from "...a means of compelling performance when one or both parties doesn't feel like it..." THAT isn't love, unless what I have for my boss when he gives me a crap job to do is love! If it involves compulsion, it isn't love.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Marriage is a form of compulsion. As unromantic as it sounds, two people agree before witnesses to produce specific performances in exchange for the alleged benefits of marriage. Again, if married folks are free to do or not do, give or not give, according to the whims of their emotions, what's the purpose of having a marriage ceremony? What differentiates married couples from those who shack up? Your sexual performance is the exclusive right of your married partner. That's why adultary is grounds for divorce and that's why marriages aren't legally valid unless consummated. Anything that binds is a form of constraint, however loving. If marriage wasn't binding, one wouldn't need to jump through legal hoops to get out of one. 
People withhold sex from their married partners only when and where they can get away with it. Don't fulfill your obligations at work, you get fired. Don't feed your kids, you go to jail for neglect or lose parental rights. Don't put gas in your car, you end up walking. Refuse to have sex with your husband or wife for years and (in this country) absolutely, positively nothing bad happens. Your partner just suffers. If they get tired of the abusive BS and leave, they lose half their property and almost all contact with their kids. Steal a 10.00 CD from Walmart and go to jail, rob another human being of the most basic of human needs and nothing happens. The law requires a higher level of compassion from dog owners than from husbands or wives. I suppose the law figures all adults have a remedy through divorce court, but losing everything you own and contact with your kids because you happened to marry an abuser doesn't seem like much of a remedy to me. The state even recognizes the need for convicted felons to have conjugal visits. Our sexuality is the most basic part of our identity. How absolutely friggin dare anyone for any reason force another human being into a sexless condition which would be unnatural for even birds and squirrels! In my mind, if you're married and positively refuse sex to your spouse (for an extended period) you've lost all right to complain or to seek damages over an adultary or for financial non-support.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

i think its a power thing.. they realize they can and when they are upset they use it and still expect you to uphold all your obligations while suffering.. i love her so i do uphold my end but how long... while she gets around to dealing with her resentment.. and your right about the birds and squirrels line


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Marriage is a form of compulsion. <<snip>>
> People withhold sex from their married partners only when and where they can get away with it. Don't fulfill your obligations at work, you get fired. Don't feed your kids, you go to jail for neglect or lose parental rights. Don't put gas in your car, you end up walking. Refuse to have sex with your husband or wife for years and (in this country) absolutely, positively nothing bad happens. Your partner just suffers. <<snip>>How absolutely friggin dare anyone for any reason force another human being into a sexless condition which would be unnatural for even birds and squirrels! In my mind, if you're married and positively refuse sex to your spouse (for an extended period) you've lost all right to complain or to seek damages over an adultary or for financial non-support.


As to the last sentence, you may be right, although I suspect it should read "...you should lose..." . But, in any legal situation, sometimes it doesn't work out for you, and life isn't always fair. The alternative is go back to when "rape in marriage" was a contradiction in terms, and I don't think that would get too many votes.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Throughout most of the planet and, up until maybe 1960 in the United States, marriage had more to do with survival than love. The concept that a woman can't have sex unless she feels giddy happy in love must be quite a shock to the billions of women on earth who had arranged marriages. Of all the things my grandparents expected and needed from a marriage, mindblowing, perfect sex probably wasn't even on their list. Somehow we've (men and women) convinced ourselves that although we are, ourselves imperfect, we deserve perfect mates. We guys tell ourselves that a wife isn't a decent wife unless she gives great BJs and looks 20 even though she's 45 and unless a guy is strong, masculine, and wealthy but still acts as sensitive and attentive as the gayest gun on the planet, well, she's screwed up and deserves better.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Throughout most of the planet and, up until maybe 1960 in the United States, marriage had more to do with survival than love. The concept that a woman can't have sex unless she feels giddy happy in love must be quite a shock to the billions of women on earth who had arranged marriages. Of all the things my grandparents expected and needed from a marriage, mindblowing, perfect sex probably wasn't even on their list. Somehow we've (men and women) convinced ourselves that although we are, ourselves imperfect, we deserve perfect mates. We guys tell ourselves that a wife isn't a decent wife unless she gives great BJs and looks 20 even though she's 45 and unless a guy is strong, masculine, and wealthy but still acts as sensitive and attentive as the gayest gun on the planet, well, she's screwed up and deserves better.


And? My grandparents didn't expect a bath in their house and an indoor toilet was a novelty, but I surely want those things. 

As for "...The concept that a woman can't have sex unless she feels giddy happy in love must be quite a shock to the billions of women on earth who had arranged marriages..." Your views might differ, but I want my sex life to be a bit more than my W "lying back and thinking of England".


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## hypatia (May 30, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> During the marriage ceremony, both pledged their bodies to the other, to the exclusion of all others. Nothing in that was ambiguous and nothing in that agreement included the words, "as long as I feel like it or he/she blows sufficient powder sugar up my backside." Nobody needs a marriage agreement if their obligations are dependant upon feely giddy. "I'll attend to your sexual needs as long as you look 20, stay in perfect shape, never piss me off, never disappoint me, never lose your job, never get sick, etc."


But here is the thing. A husband who starves his wife of affection, but then demands sexual service at the end of the day, _is not fulfilling his wife's sexual needs either._ 

I agree that intentionally withholding sex sucks. I think it's a terrible tactic to use. But your idea that women have to feel "giddy" in order to have sex is a total strawman.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

the issue is when she was needy for affection we were having sex... now that im turning it around and giving her affection she said its too much and tone it down.. shes sorting thru her resentful feelings.. been 2 months.. and she feels like the only way a woman can get a mans attention is to stop sexual activity.


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## grizabella (May 8, 2011)

Of course a woman can have sex without feeling giddy happy in love. Actualy most of the time we do. When we do get to feel that way it's great. But most of us could earn an oscar from time to time, we do that because we always believe next time will be better. And we do want you guys to come back for more. Using sex as currency is not unusual but take some finess so as not to appear too contrived. It's not bad just everyone needs to be on the same page regarding the rules. It's when one partner starts to use a different playbook that things get murky.


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## grizabella (May 8, 2011)

socal04 said:


> the issue is when she was needy for affection we were having sex... now that im turning it around and giving her affection she said its too much and tone it down.. shes sorting thru her resentful feelings.. been 2 months.. and she feels like the only way a woman can get a mans attention is to stop sexual activity.


So, I assume she has your attention.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Not sure when "service" got to be an ugly word. It's the essence of marriage. Doesn't mean being raped or anyone's a slave, or a "Betty Crocker" or any other other lies tossed about for the past 50 years. It's just plain unselfish love and when both parties practice it regularly, problems disappear. Anyone who professes to love while simultaneously withholding a basic need is a liar and a fraud. 
Naturally, it would be just as wrong for a man to deliberately withhold affection from his spouse, but realize that some pits are simply bottomless and can never be filled. All the attention and affection in the world can't make a miserable person contented. The MINIMUM standard for a person to be considered married other than the necessary legal paperwork is that they be a sexual partner. Not an outstanding or gifted sexual partner but merely present and participating. Those who withhold sex aren't meeting even the minimum standard and deserve only abandonment as a logical response. I don't water dead plants and I don't wax a car that won't run. If there are problems, we can discuss them and I'll give my absolute best to fix them. Abandoning the marital bed is the same as abandoning the marriage. If I can't trust a woman to attend to my basic needs while I'm reasonably healthy and communicative, what are the odds that she'd care for me late in my life when I can't care for myself?


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

Grizabella - thats junior type sh*t.... im grown theres no other way ? . how about her fully expressing her feelings and not leaving it to " i should just know" i mean full express how u want to be held how often you want to be touched.. what kind of touch ......

theres no shame in that..
i could get her attention also.. but thats low down and i wont do that


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## grizabella (May 8, 2011)

Takes a lot of trust to express youself that way. That actually is what intimacy is, the ability to ask for what you need, the belief that you will get it. 

I wasn't saying withholding is the right way to get attention, it just seems to have worked. 

There is an age old question: What do women want? We have been confounding men for ages. Songs and poems have been written about it. You must go back to the most elemental point...which is...do you want her. Then focus on it, you must know something of what she needs to respond.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Socal. See, your basic problem is that you just don't adore her enough 'cause if you did, even without her using any language known to mankind, you'd just "know" what she was feeling. If she told you her feelings like the rest of us mere mortals, she'd miss out on watching you crawl through broken glass daily trying to figure it out. There are no more dragons left to slay so you get to combat endless drama to prove your worth.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

I wouldn't intentionally withhold, and I'm guessing most women wouldn't, they just wouldn't feel like it if their SO was being a jerk, or wasn't meeting their needs. 

I however don't withhold and can be easily persuaded.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

i definitely think she has a communication problem thats kind of been hidden all these years.. usually and i admit it i overall cause more issues then she does but she doesnt communicate with her deep feelings well... i was raised with no affection at all.. so im learning but i need to know exactly what it is u need and how often.. and checkpoints of telling me " yeah babe" good job this week or month...

i still love her obviously... but at least now i know im not going INSANE... the relationship analyzer( my wife ) has an actual flaw..

we men usually dont analyze stuff but alot of women sure do.. im way too busy working and stressing about taking car of my fam and our future... its jacked up cause she will analyze it and store info then act happy.. then when she gets real annoyed unleash months of analyzed info......

im in counseling now learning to be my authentic self and to live out of my heart not my head.. and how to show affection... she needs to do something real soon.. cause its been 2 months of NOTHING... except half hearted hugs at bedtime as she goes and sleeps in the next room.... her holding onto grudged from 7 years ago to me is deceitful to a degree.. cause we've been having intimate sex for these last 7 years..


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## grizabella (May 8, 2011)

Holding on to grudges for years and using it against you today is garbage dumping and is dirty fighting. You can't defense against that. why is she sleeping in another room, sounds like more is going on that just denying you sex. Sounds like she has completely moved away from you emotionally. So, what happened?


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## hypatia (May 30, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Not sure when "service" got to be an ugly word.


If you are referring to my post, "service" is an ugly word in the realm of sex when it is purely one-way. (Unless you have some kind of mutual BDSM agreement.) 



> Naturally, it would be just as wrong for a man to deliberately withhold affection from his spouse, but realize that some pits are simply bottomless and can never be filled. All the attention and affection in the world can't make a miserable person contented.


So? There are plenty of wives who CAN get warmed up by an honest effort from their spouses. Focusing on the few who can't is a cop-out.



> The MINIMUM standard for a person to be considered married other than the necessary legal paperwork is that they be a sexual partner. Not an outstanding or gifted sexual partner but merely present and participating. Those who withhold sex aren't meeting even the minimum standard and deserve only abandonment as a logical response.


And as I said, a husband who does not pay attention to what his wife needs in order to be turned on is failing at his duties to please her sexually as well. Under such circumstances, I'm sure you would just as strongly condemn his decision to "abandon the marital bed"...?

Look, I'm not defending the practice of withholding sex on purpose. I'm saying that some women genuinely lose desire for their partners as resentments build up, as their partners take them for granted, as their partners get lazy, all kinds of reasons. Am I saying a woman is blameless here? No, it is her job to communicate what she needs. But if she expresses these needs only to be dismissed by her husband as needy or "needing to feel giddy," as you seem to do, that is pretty humiliating for her. It strikes me as highly illogical to perpetuate those conditions and then wonder why she isn't in the mood for sex more often.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

You actually are not only defending the practice of withholding but you're shifting blame on the victim. If only he would do x, then she wouldn't withhold. Let's use that logic on another form of abuse. If wife would cook better, husband wouldn't bust her lip. If desire is gone or resentment is too great to bother trying anymore, then get out of the marriage. Simple. Holding a spouse as a celibate hostage for the rest of their days serves no purpose. He don't blow your skirt up anymore? Fine! Toss him back cause he's perfect for someone else.


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## hypatia (May 30, 2011)

We clearly have different definitions of withholding. And the husband in your scenario is no more of a victim than his wife is - why is it that she should be expected to "just divorce. Simple" while he can't? 

If you place all power in a woman's hands, that says more about you than her.

Also, comparing not getting enough sex to domestic violence is really wrong. I hope I don't need to post the statistics showing how many women are murdered by abusive partners every year. Or that pregnant women are most likely to die not from medical complications, but by homicide at the hands of their partners. While a sexless marriage is a terrible experience, it's really not on the level of literal violence.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> You actually are not only defending the practice of withholding but you're shifting blame on the victim. If only he would do x, then she wouldn't withhold. Let's use that logic on another form of abuse. If wife would cook better, husband wouldn't bust her lip. If desire is gone or resentment is too great to bother trying anymore, then get out of the marriage. Simple. Holding a spouse as a celibate hostage for the rest of their days serves no purpose. He don't blow your skirt up anymore? Fine! Toss him back cause he's perfect for someone else.


Wow. Lack of sex vs. physical abuse/terror. BTW....nobody holds anybody hostage in a marriage. Just leave. 
Also, you dismissed her emotional needs by saying she is in essence a black hole of need and not worthy of any effort yet she is supposed to put out at your whim or you liken her to a batterer? Talk about blaming the victim. Come on.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

I am still not clear on just what constitutes withholding. Is saying no every now and then because you're tired withholding? Or does it have to be a continual pattern over a long period of time?


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

NEVER - EVER have I withheld. Even when I'm upset or mad.

Husband on the other hand - he has been doing it for more than a year now and has acknowledge he's doing it and that it is meant as punishment for me due to resentment he has for me.

I don't get it - I don't work like that - but, I can NOW see where I have contributed to the problem.

But I agree that it is cruel and not a loving gesture in any shape, form or fashion.

But then again, we are all human and do not always treat those we love with respect and loving gestures - we can and are cruel when we feel intense pain and have been hurt by those that we love.

Doesn't make it right - but it's who "we are" as humans.


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

*Never!*



unbelievable said:


> Doesn't matter if it's right or wrong. It's death to a relationship, so it's not smart unless the intent is to destroy the marriage.


:iagree: The only time I refuse sex is if I am ill or stressed out and crave only cuddles & kisses. I refuse on average about 5-6 a year. Even if I am not really in the mood, I still make love with my husband. I am the only woman he can get it from, so I need to be available, as I expect the same from Mr.G. :smthumbup::smthumbup:

Withholding sex on widens the chasm caused by fighting. Life is too short and I would rather be happy than right!


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

I guess some women with hold for different reasons, not that its right or wrong. No different than someone with holding affection as in the emotional sense. There are people who do that too. Whether its the chicken and egg syndrome, it doesn't really matter. 

I had a friend once who told me she didn't give her husband much sex because he wasn't meeting her needs either, even after she had told him many times what she felt was lacking. I asked her if she felt like she was missing out on sex too, by doing that. She told me no not really, most of the time if a person is truly "checked in" the marriage they would probably miss it, so if they are with holding, they may not really care whether they get any or not. I would imagine with holding anything purposely surely is damaging.

I also know people who continually lay down with their spouse who never with hold, who are already in damaging relationships, that are not healthy situations at all. These women usually suffer from low self esteem thinking sex will make it all better or their spouse will stop a bad or abusive behavior. Thats just as sad as with holding. They are allowing themselves to be used.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

Callalily... u said...

"I had a friend once who told me she didn't give her husband much sex because he wasn't meeting her needs either, even after she had told him many times what she felt was lacking. I asked her if she felt like she was missing out on sex too, by doing that. She told me no not really, most of the time if a person is truly "checked in" the marriage they would probably miss it, so if they are with holding, they may not really care whether they get any or not." 


wow... thats crazy


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

socal04 said:


> wow... thats crazy


And true. My best friend withholds sex when her husband acts like an ass. She says she could care less if they never have sex again. She's 30.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

then why stay married?


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

why stay married then.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

In 1996, Health Canada argued that emotional abuse is motivated by urges for "power and discontrol",[3] and defines emotional abuse as including rejecting, degrading, terrorizing, isolating, corrupting/exploiting and "denying emotional responsiveness" as characteristic of emotional abuse.

Whether one uses a vagina or a fist to exert power over their partner or to diminish them as a human being, it's abusive.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

magnoliagal said:


> And true. My best friend withholds sex when her husband acts like an ass. She says she could care less if they never have sex again. She's 30.


If sex is an obligation, it seems to rank with others like drain cleaning or tax returns for some people!


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Ford v Ford [1987] Fam Law 232, Judge Goodman
H and W had a sexual relationship until H was sent to prison. They married while he was in prison, but he refused to consummate the marriage at the time and later said he did not want to live with W even after he was released. W's petition for a decree of nullity was allowed: H's refusal to consummate the marriage in prison was not a "wilful refusal", but his clear determination never to do so was sufficient.

Where the parties jointly regard some other act (usually a religious ceremony) as necessary before consummation, refusal to participate in this other act will be regarded as refusal to consummate.

A v J (Nullity) [1989] 1 FLR 110, Anthony Lincoln J
H and W were of Indian ancestry and took part in an arranged civil marriage, which was to be followed by a religious ceremony some four months later. Between the two ceremonies they spent only a few days together because of H's work in the USA. Shortly before the religious ceremony (which it was accepted was a prerequisite to consummation), W refused to go ahead with it, giving as her reason H's apparently uncaring and unloving attitude towards her. H apologised and said he had supposed a formal relationship would be appropriate until they were "properly married", but W refused to accept this apology and maintained her refusal to go through with the religious ceremony. H was granted a decree of nullity for W's wilful refusal to consummate the marriage.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. 4The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. 5Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, 1 Corinthians 7:4


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> In 1996, Health Canada argued that emotional abuse is motivated by urges for "power and discontrol",[3] and defines emotional abuse as including rejecting, degrading, terrorizing, isolating, corrupting/exploiting and "denying emotional responsiveness" as characteristic of emotional abuse.
> 
> Whether one uses a vagina or a fist to exert power over their partner or to diminish them as a human being, it's abusive.


It goes both ways. A man who doesnt emotionally provide for his wife but then hollers and demands for sex is just as abusive as a wife who deliberately withholds it for her own reasons. You dismissed the first part though saying that it was pointless because some are just a black hole of need. Could the same argument be made then by the wife that having sex with her husband is pointless because it would never be enough and complaints would still abound?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Quoting the law and scripture 30 minutes after saying that withholding sex is the same as busting a woman's face? A bit odd, dontcha think?


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

It does go both ways. I also think its interesting when a woman tells her husband over and over again and possibly shows him what she wants and needs from the relationship, but he still refuses to meet those needs but yet whines about how she isn't giving him any sex. Well gee maybe he is contributing to why that is. Some people never see the whole picture as to why things are the way they are, just what they are not getting, forget there might be a actual reason behind it.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

See that's a deeper problem. That means she never liked or wanted it. There's a whole class of people who are biologically asexual. This kind of thing is anecdotal evidence of that. And if you hook up with one of these people, getting them to change is no more likely than changing their eye color.


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## incognitoman (Oct 22, 2009)

socal04 said:


> i agree.. love needs to be given for the sake of love not to get a return.. which means i be the best me i can and uphold alll my responsibilities to include learning how to show more affection but she needs to do her part also... i agree with u


The really hard part is still being the best that you can be and upholding all your responsibilities even when she doesn't do the same. Love is not an emotion, it is a choice, it is something that you do. If you stop because you aren't getting the same in return then it isn't love. Taking on the mentality of "I'll do this, as long as you do that" is not true love.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

The assertion was made that sex was not an obligation of marriage. Marriage is a civil and/or a religious institution. I showed evidence that both consider it an obligation. The assertion was made that withholding sex was not abuse and I countered by showing that the civil authorities clearly classify it as abuse. Upon marriage, does one spouse have the right to expect anything at all from their husband or wife other than that they occupy space, consume oxygen, and produce carbon dioxide?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

trey69 said:


> It does go both ways. I also think its interesting when a woman tells her husband over and over again and possibly shows him what she wants and needs from the relationship, but he still refuses to meet those needs but yet whines about how she isn't giving him any sex. Well gee maybe he is contributing to why that is. Some people never see the whole picture as to why things are the way they are, just what they are not getting, forget there might be a actual reason behind it.


Word. The problem with this though is the whole chicken/egg thingy. She gets upset because he doesn't meet her needs and vice versa. Neither gets what they want.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> The assertion was made that sex was not an obligation of marriage. Marriage is a civil and/or a religious institution. I showed evidence that both consider it an obligation. The assertion was made that withholding sex was not abuse and I countered by showing that the civil authorities clearly classify it as abuse. Upon marriage, does one spouse have the right to expect anything at all from their husband or wife other than that they occupy space, consume oxygen, and produce carbon dioxide?


If withholding sex is abuse classified by the civil authorities as you stated, then how come all the men here complaining about their sex lives with their wives don't have their spouse sitting in a jail cell right now?
It might be crappy behavior but it isn't criminal.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> If withholding sex is abuse classified by the civil authorities as you stated, then how come all the men here complaining about their sex lives with their wives don't have their spouse sitting in a jail cell right now?
> It might be crappy behavior but it isn't criminal.


Because there's not enough prison cells in the entire world and because life aint fair.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> The assertion was made that sex was not an obligation of marriage. Marriage is a civil and/or a religious institution. I showed evidence that both consider it an obligation.


It's functionally unenforceable. It's like the episode of Steptoe and Son where the old man and Harold are arguing about what to watch on the TV:
Harold "I've got the law of contract on my side!"
Old Man "And I've got the knobs!"
And the idea of so called implied consent was formally thrown out as being "fiction" in the English courts back in 1991


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

trey69 said:


> It does go both ways. I also think its interesting when a woman tells her husband over and over again and possibly shows him what she wants and needs from the relationship, but he still refuses to meet those needs but yet whines about how she isn't giving him any sex. Well gee maybe he is contributing to why that is. Some people never see the whole picture as to why things are the way they are, just what they are not getting, forget there might be a actual reason behind it.



not talking about that scenario im talkin about one party ( the man ) trying to meet affection requirments and the other holding onto resentment and cutting off ALL activities. and the affection requirements were never really stated.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

This problem will correct itself because the "all marriage is rape" crowd will get their wish and marriage will go the way of the dinosaur. We will be left as selfish men and selfish women, each exploiting each other without any obligation. Kids, I suppose, will fend for themselves.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

incognitoman said:


> The really hard part is still being the best that you can be and upholding all your responsibilities even when she doesn't do the same. Love is not an emotion, it is a choice, it is something that you do. If you stop because you aren't getting the same in return then it isn't love. Taking on the mentality of "I'll do this, as long as you do that" is not true love.


everybody has a breaking point. theres no such thing as unconditional love.

True love is an oxymoron!


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> everybody has a breaking point. theres no such thing as unconditional love.
> 
> True love is an oxymoron!


then marriage vows are b.s. cause apparently most people arent willing to put in the work.

im talking about people that are putting forth effort not someone doing nothing.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

socal04 said:


> then marriage vows are b.s. cause apparently most people arent willing to put in the work.
> 
> im talking about people that are putting forth effort not someone doing nothing.


are both people putting forth effort in this relationship.



and yes marriage vowe seem to be BS

question can you sue your spouce for infidelity being as you have an oral contract witnessed by all the people at your wedding to forsake ALL others


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

well i was serious when i said my side of it.. have i been perfect NOPE but i'm still in the game and trying despite issues.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

socal04 said:


> well i was serious when i said my side of it.. have i been perfect NOPE but i'm still in the game and trying despite issues.


How long will you stay in the game before you say this is a losing battle and throw in the towel?

It takes two to make a marriage good.and if one isn't even in the ball park then your fighting a losing battle or an unwinnable game.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If it were even humanly possible for all husbands to satisfy the emotional needs of all wives, the mental health industry would collapse. Twice as many women as men suffer from chronic depression, a condition afflicting about one in eight women. Until someone can teach guys how to change their partner's brain chemistry or hormone levels, the reality is that many men will find themselves in sexless marriages which they have no power to alter. They can deal with it or they can leave.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Of more than 40,000 women surveyed, 44.2% reported having either low sexual desire or arousal or orgasm difficulties, but only 12% said that they had problems that caused them distress, suggesting true sexual dysfunction, Jan Shifren, M.D., of Massachusetts General Hospital, and colleagues reported in the November issue of Obstetrics & Gynecology.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> Of more than 40,000 women surveyed, 44.2% reported having either low sexual desire or arousal or orgasm difficulties, but only 12% said that they had problems that caused them distress, suggesting true sexual dysfunction, Jan Shifren, M.D., of Massachusetts General Hospital, and colleagues reported in the November issue of Obstetrics & Gynecology.


And yet gay marriage isn't legal.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> How long will you stay in the game before you say this is a losing battle and throw in the towel?
> .


That's a great question.. hard when u love someone.. i guess i would have to get to the point where i give up inside.

separation makes no sense to me.. just seems to make things worse. if ur not getting enough affection separating will make it better? seems like pouting for grown folk. now i have drifted from all the pain of isolation.. how has that made anything better? i wont be going thru this again.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, and makes me wonder if people just consider it a nonissue: If a person whithholds, then they either assume that the spouse can't or won't get the need met elsewhere. Yet those who assume that the spouse won't get it met elsewhere often find their way to boards like this when they do.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Halien said:


> One thing that hasn't been mentioned, and makes me wonder if people just consider it a nonissue: If a person whithholds, then they either assume that the spouse can't or won't get the need met elsewhere. Yet those who assume that the spouse won't get it met elsewhere often find their way to boards like this when they do.


:iagree:

and then want a free pass for being a cold fish


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## WhiteRabbit (May 11, 2011)

socal04 said:


> How many of you intentionally withhold sex because you feel like you arent getting enough affection? i mean for more than one week?
> and was it because he was intentionally witholding affection??


I NEVER withheld sex or physical attention to H. Looking back I'm wondering if maybe I should have done that to keep him on his toes...keep him interested and wanting more.It seems to be the only way to keep a man...be a b*tch,you get to keep your husband.be an ideal wife with open legs and an open heart...he'll cheat with his nasty employee.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

WR not all men are cheaters and I don't think there is anything you could have done differently to change what happened to you.


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## WhiteRabbit (May 11, 2011)

magnoliagal said:


> WR not all men are cheaters and I don't think there is anything you could have done differently to change what happened to you.


thanks for the kind words...I'm just not sure anymore...

I've been cheated on by 2 different men. Two different guys and two different situations...maybe I am the problem.Or maybe I just attract weak minded,weak willed men.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> WR not all men are cheaters and I don't think there is anything you could have done differently to change what happened to you.


:iagree:


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

White Rabbit makes a good point. It's essentially the same irony men deal with. To us, it seems the only way to have an attentive, loving wife is to be an unemployed, physically and emotionally abusive, convicted felon. Seems as though the better you treat them, the more likely they'll cheat, leave, or turn into a sexless battle axe.


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## WhiteRabbit (May 11, 2011)

this wasn't the best thread for me to weigh in! I think i put my manhatin'panties on this morning!


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## WhiteRabbit (May 11, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> White Rabbit makes a good point. It's essentially the same irony men deal with. To us, it seems the only way to have an attentive, loving wife is to be an unemployed, physically and emotionally abusive, convicted felon. Seems as though the better you treat them, the more likely they'll cheat, leave, or turn into a sexless battle axe.


heard this about a thousand times from men over the years.it really does seem to be the norm doesn't it? nice guys/nice girls finish last and find their spouse in a body lock with someone else.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

WR I like that you are seeking introspection as to what your part in this was but everything I've read about you says fabulous wife. I still think you married a man with a God complex. It's why I'd never in a million years ever date a doctor, lawyer, or some other high powered career man. Give me a blue collar man any day. They are more grounded to me and less likely to cheat on a great woman.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

WhiteRabbit said:


> thanks for the kind words...I'm just not sure anymore...
> 
> I've been cheated on by 2 different men. Two different guys and two different situations...maybe I am the problem.Or maybe I just attract weak minded,weak willed men.


One of the saddest things in life is that people who are kind, accepting and loving get taken advantage of by those who just assume that this equates to an unsuspecting nature. Simply, they cheated because they thought you would never ask questions. Hence, they could get away with it and still keep the perfect wife. Don't change who you are just because of their betrayal.


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## txhunter54 (Jul 4, 2010)

WhiteRabbit said:


> I NEVER withheld sex or physical attention to H. Looking back I'm wondering if maybe I should have done that to keep him on his toes...keep him interested and wanting more.It seems to be the only way to keep a man...be a b*tch,you get to keep your husband.be an ideal wife with open legs and an open heart...he'll cheat with his nasty employee.


Disagree. Be an ideal wife and open legs and open heart and there is no reason to go elsewhere. Be a b*tch and he will leave or look elsewhere or both.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> White Rabbit makes a good point. It's essentially the same irony men deal with. To us, it seems the only way to have an attentive, loving wife is to be an unemployed, physically and emotionally abusive, convicted felon. Seems as though the better you treat them, the more likely they'll cheat, leave, or turn into a sexless battle axe.


No all that means is that the woman is insecure and needy and clingy. Treat them like **** and they internalize that and try to be more accommodating.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Just another way of saying, "treating them like a princess is the quickest way to be cut off."


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## Roooth (May 13, 2011)

My 2 cents: I've never done withheld. Yes, I have a healthy drive, but even when I wasn't really into it, I was still open and interested in getting into the mood. Plus I don't have a need to exert control. I've never withheld due to lack of affection. I'm lucky in that my husband is very affectionate. I had a past boyfriend who wasn't and I tried to use sex to get my intimacy, but that didn't work so well either. There's a reason he's an ex, lol. 

A wise woman doesn't damage her relationship in this way.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

txhunter54 said:


> Disagree. Be an ideal wife and open legs and open heart and there is no reason to go elsewhere. Be a b*tch and he will leave or look elsewhere or both.


It's a woman's fault when her husband cheats? Ridiculous. It's his fault and his choice. Period.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> It's a woman's fault when her husband cheats? Ridiculous. It's his fault and his choice. Period.


:iagree:

But for some people its easier to blame. Its easier to say that person is the reason I'm not happy. Anytime you finger point it takes the focus off of you and what you should/could be doing to help improve things. I truly believe people never think they might have a hand in anything at all or why their situation might be having issues. And if people truly believe they don't or that they are not part of the problem, then they must be with wrong person.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

trey69 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> But for some people its easier to blame. Its easier to say that person is the reason I'm not happy. Anytime you finger point it takes the focus off of you and what you should/could be doing to help improve things. I truly believe people never think they might have a hand in anything at all or why their situation might be having issues. And if people truly believe they don't or that they are not part of the problem, then they must be with wrong person.


Wouldn't life be grand if I could waltz through life blaming everybody else for my poor decisions? Unbelievable.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

is willfully withholding sex for over 2 months considered abandonment ? I'm starting to think so..


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

not just sex but affection also


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## grizabella (May 8, 2011)

In our sex infused culture you'd think people would be going at it like rabbits. Are the only ones getting any today teenagers? These are the same complaints I heard 40 years ago, it seems there is always one partner or the other with little to no sex drive. I don't think you can blame Mama anymore, it was my generation that got you all "liberated". 

There are always times in a marriage when it's not 50/50, sometimes it 60/40 or even 80/20 but a strong relationship can handle it if it's temporary. 

The expectation of sex in a marriage is a given and anyone who holds out has broken their vows same as one who cheats. No or little sex is a betrayal and if it persists needs to be treated or otherwise dealt with. For God's sake get some help.


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## txhunter54 (Jul 4, 2010)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> It's a woman's fault when her husband cheats? Ridiculous. It's his fault and his choice. Period.


Not what I said. If the sex life is fine at home, then it's worth staying in the marriage and there is no reason to be tempted elsewhere. If it's not, then time to fix it or move on.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

grizabella said:


> In our sex infused culture you'd think people would be going at it like rabbits. Are the only ones getting any today teenagers? These are the same complaints I heard 40 years ago, it seems there is always one partner or the other with little to no sex drive. I don't think you can blame Mama anymore, it was my generation that got you all "liberated".
> 
> There are always times in a marriage when it's not 50/50, sometimes it 60/40 or even 80/20 but a strong relationship can handle it if it's temporary.
> 
> The expectation of sex in a marriage is a given and anyone who holds out has broken their vows same as one who cheats. No or little sex is a betrayal and if it persists needs to be treated or otherwise dealt with. For God's sake get some help.


I disagree that our society is sex infused. Sure, it's more open than in the 1950's but there still is a great deal of shame surrounding sexuality in this country. Other countries are light years ahead and children grow up not being ashamed of themselves but comfortable and secure. Mind you that teens here are very active but so much of it is being taboo. Girls wearing bracelets showing the world what they are willing to do, boys bragging about how far they got. If sex was taught at a young age as being normal and natural you would have kids who grew up in to adults who were pretty liberated. 
And darn it, I wouldn't have any bikini top tan lines either.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

txhunter54 said:


> Not what I said. If the sex life is fine at home, then it's worth staying in the marriage and there is no reason to be tempted elsewhere. If it's not, then time to fix it or move on.


Plenty of people cheat regardless of the homelife. Variety, opportunity, ego, etc. What I am saying is that cheating isn't a reflection on the partner, it is a reflection of the person cheating. Period.


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

These situation sound like marital stalemates. For the sake of power playing, no body wins and the "relationship" along with the power play "players" each suffer. Would you rather be happy or right all the time? Communicate with her and give it time. The more you invest in the happiness of your wife, the greater the returns will be when she reciprocates. Then do not be afraid to tell her what will make you happy. 

The best way to use a forum like this is to ask the ladies, "How can I make my wife feel like the most loved, understood, appreciated and secure women alive?" Then you will be telling others about how you are the most appreciated, well sexed and happy man alive.

If you heed the best advice and try it out on your wife, investing heavily in the happiness and meeting the needs of your wife will most likely have HUGE returns.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

socal04 said:


> is willfully withholding sex for over 2 months considered abandonment ? I'm starting to think so..


Not legally it's not. In fact that legal construct no longer exists in the US. It used to be about 18 months.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

Rough Patch Sewing said:


> The best way to use a forum like this is to ask the ladies, "How can I make my wife feel like the most loved, understood, appreciated and secure women alive?" Then you will be telling others about how you are the most appreciated, well sexed and happy man alive.


i turned on the affection 2 months ago.. she said it was too much and she told she was resentful.. so here we sit.. and obviously i cant go back in time... but i see your point it makes sense.. just takes 2 to tango..

shes taken a big timeout..


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

socal04 said:


> i turned on the affection 2 months ago.. she said it was too much and she told she was resentful.. so here we sit.. and obviously i cant go back in time... but i see your point it makes sense.. just takes 2 to tango..
> 
> shes taken a big timeout..


Not beating you over the head but the problem could be that two months ago you turned on the charm. How many years did the non-charm go on, that's the key to her resentment.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

well on and off for 16 years...

nothing i can do about the past though... it would be helpful is she would voice exactly what she wants... instead of storing it up and assuming i just know? in the meantime acting like everyting is fine.


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## hypatia (May 30, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> If it were even humanly possible for all husbands to satisfy the emotional needs of all wives, the mental health industry would collapse.


Actually it's not only about emotional needs. It's about a woman's *sexual* needs. We have those too, you know. 

A guy who says "let me stick it in you for five minutes and hump away until I'm done, the end" is not meeting my sexual needs. Our genitals may have contact but by not even _attempting_ to make me cum, he is effectively withholding sex from me. (I understand that there are some instances where it's just not gonna happen for the woman. I'm mainly talking about a sustained pattern of this happening.)

Would you consider it sexually satisfying if your wife wanted to penetrate you with a dildo, brought herself to climax, then rolled over and went to sleep without taking care of your orgasm? 

I'm sorry to be graphic but I don't know what other terms I can put it in.

I'm not saying that all sexless marriages are because of scenarios like this, just that your constant refrain of "boo hoo women have bottomless emotional needs" is beating a strawman to death.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

socal04 said:


> well on and off for 16 years...
> 
> nothing i can do about the past though... it would be helpful is she would voice exactly what she wants... instead of storing it up and assuming i just know? in the meantime acting like everyting is fine.


Yep, I'm in the same boat. Ignored for the better part of 17 years and suddenly he has some ephiphany and wants "us" to work. I'll tell you, it's darn hard to see his efforts and not be jaded. Also, the pain doesn't ever go away, it just dulls a bit.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

does that mean u dont want to forgive him and hold onto your pain?

where you meeting all his needs? whats wrong with a epiphany?


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## hypatia (May 30, 2011)

socal04 said:


> whats wrong with a epiphany?


I'm just going to take a guess here: when it was important to her, it didn't matter. Now that it suddenly matters to him, it's a critical problem that has to be dealt with. 

Sometimes people have a genuine change of heart. But sometimes, it's just the same attitude - "only my needs count" - with a different gloss.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Hypatia, several women have excused or explained withholding by suggesting the man isn't meeting some emotional need. I was responding to them. However, you are absolutely correct. It just is what it is and there is no point in popping in on this forum to discuss it. Carry on.


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## hypatia (May 30, 2011)

Understood


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

hypatia said:


> I'm just going to take a guess here: when it was important to her, it didn't matter. Now that it suddenly matters to him, it's a critical problem that has to be dealt with.
> 
> Sometimes people have a genuine change of heart. But sometimes, it's just the same attitude - "only my needs count" - with a different gloss.


You nailed it. 17 years it was MY problem. Once he realized I hired a lawyer and was leaving, suddenly it's OUR problem. 17 years of being tossed aside for a computer, friends, job, parents, online gaming, racquetball, golf, co-workers and suddenly I matter? Honest to God, there are days I wonder if he stayed because he realized after 17 years he was going to loose so much and I'm not sure I entered that equation. 
Now he is going overboard. Concert tixs, jewelry, flowers, restaurants, etc yet he couldn't remember my birthday or Christmas for me? I'm just worn out and the niggling bad side of me sees these gestures as bs. Awful, I know. I need to change my attitude, trust me I know this. Any ideas?


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

yea thats wayy worse than my situation i did show s ome affection and never forgot special occasions... hang in there... maybe yall need to get on same page spiritually..... im sure he still loves you.. just needs to learn to demonstrate it better


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

You have nothing to lose by seeing if it's maintained.

I'd keep the thermostat just a bit below his and see if he's serious.





Therealbrighteyes said:


> You nailed it. 17 years it was MY problem. Once he realized I hired a lawyer and was leaving, suddenly it's OUR problem. 17 years of being tossed aside for a computer, friends, job, parents, online gaming, racquetball, golf, co-workers and suddenly I matter? Honest to God, there are days I wonder if he stayed because he realized after 17 years he was going to loose so much and I'm not sure I entered that equation.
> Now he is going overboard. Concert tixs, jewelry, flowers, restaurants, etc yet he couldn't remember my birthday or Christmas for me? I'm just worn out and the niggling bad side of me sees these gestures as bs. Awful, I know. I need to change my attitude, trust me I know this. Any ideas?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Conrad said:


> You have nothing to lose by seeing if it's maintained.
> 
> I'd keep the thermostat just a bit below his and see if he's serious.


Oh he's serious alright, the sad part is I don't know if I am. All the nice gestures just remind me of how neglected I was. Some days it's really just hard to give a damn.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

so basically you dont love him anymore?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

socal04 said:


> so basically you dont love him anymore?


Never said that. Once that's gone.....so am I.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Oh he's serious alright, the sad part is I don't know if I am. All the nice gestures just remind me of how neglected I was. Some days it's really just hard to give a damn.


This is holding onto resentment.

Don't keep thinking of how neglected you WERE - think of how things are. 

If you continue to live in the past, it will determine your future.

My husband does the same thing. Continues to think about how things were not good in the past which blinds him to what is happening now.

I refuse to live in the past - no matter what.

It would probably make you feel better if you could move past it (not forget it, but forgive it and move past it).

Resentment will continue to fester and breed if you let it.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> This is holding onto resentment.
> 
> Don't keep thinking of how neglected you WERE - think of how things are.
> 
> ...


Oh, I 100% agree with you. It would be easier though if certain behavior didn't continue. It makes things raw much easier.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> This is holding onto resentment.
> 
> Don't keep thinking of how neglected you WERE - think of how things are.
> 
> ...


In another thread, a regular poster (Mrs G possibly?) said she "would rather be happy than right". There's a lot of people who would rather die than be "wrong" or move past anything. The spirit of the feud is a live and well and living with us


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

Marriage is about cooperation. Women who with-hold without opening up to their spouses about what is wrong have a need to have their emotional needs met by their spouse but the fear of not being understood keeps them quiet.

That is the case for my wife. I have decided to live in understanding of my wife's emotional needs even though I do not "get it", it is my job to know her emotional needs and help her to open up to me. 

I help her feel secure about "us" and her emotions. She opens-up and tells me what is wrong. I fully hear her out, take action to make intimacy work along those lines of what she communicated. If it backfires, not to worry. Give it a little time and try it again.

Both of us are very happy and the "Withholding Wife" problem is solved.

It is not a way of being controlled by one's wife. Rather, it is a way of turning on the tap of intimacy for someone who needs to be handled with "understanding". 

Every women is different, but the fact that they desire to be understood, loved, and made to feel secure" is pretty much universal. Any women have any comments to refute my statement? I am open to being proven wrong.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

44% of adult women report having sexual difficulties. I seriously doubt that means 44% of all women aren't having their emotional needs met. There are myriad reasons why women might have a decreased libido. Even if I could raise the dead and turn water into wine, I can't control my wife's hormone levels. I can't change whatever happened in her childhood. I can't change her brain chemistry or control reactions to medications. I strongly suspect that if a serious study was ever conducted, most men with withholding wives would belong in the "pleaser" crowd. Their condition would likely improve if they blew less powder sugar up their wives' backsides. The notion that most guys can "nice" their way into the sack defies reality.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

alot of women do point a "high" premium on nice though


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

43% or 44%, what have you, of women report having sexual difficulty. In the Harvard report found at: 
What is female sexual dysfunction? - Harvard Health Publications, the causes for chronic sexual dysfunction, in which the disorder is causing the woman distress, include both physical and psychological contributing factors. I would argue that to ignore the psychological factors in the 44% figure makes the 44% figure a gross overstatement of FSD.


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

So as not to overdo my post, here is my next point. The name of the thread is "women - how many of you intentionally withold??" I have to state that it is illogical to assume that any woman who suffers from a physical sexual disorder intentionally with holds sex because she cannot help the side effects of her disorder. 

The portion of the 44% of women who report fsd not resulting from physical, hormonal, or bio-chemical factors have some kind of psychological cause for their disorder. I take an integrative approach to handling this issue. Both medication and psychological therapy are efficacious for handling psychological disorders. 

Even if a woman takes depression medicine to cure depression doesn't she also deserve to be treated with love and respect by her husband, ill-regardless of her having sex with him or not? Is marriage truly quid-pro-quo, or is marriage a choice to honor, love, and nurture the other person, for the sake of love, human dignity, and the sake of the marriage relationship?

TO quote my first post:



Rough Patch Sewing said:


> Marriage is about cooperation. Women who with-hold without opening up to their spouses about what is wrong have a need to have their emotional needs met by their spouse but the fear of not being understood keeps them quiet.
> 
> That is the case for my wife. I have decided to live in understanding of my wife's emotional needs even though I do not "get it", it is my job to know her emotional needs and help her to open up to me.
> 
> ...


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> 44% of adult women report having sexual difficulties. I seriously doubt that means 44% of all women aren't having their emotional needs met. There are myriad reasons why women might have a decreased libido. Even if I could raise the dead and turn water into wine, I can't control my wife's hormone levels. I can't change whatever happened in her childhood. I can't change her brain chemistry or control reactions to medications. I strongly suspect that if a serious study was ever conducted, most men with withholding wives would belong in the "pleaser" crowd. Their condition would likely improve if they blew less powder sugar up their wives' backsides. The notion that most guys can "nice" their way into the sack defies reality.


I have to remark on the quote from unbelievable concerning "I can't change whatever happened in her childhood", this is absolutely true. However, as a woman's husband, you can change the way she feels about that bad experience, here and now, today!

If she will open up to you, a friend, or a therapist then she can tell someone who cares about her troubles the terrible things that she had to go through in her past, then that caring person, say her husband for the sake of argument, can listen, help her deal with the pain, and maybe find healing and wholeness. 

My father in law put many insecurities into my wife when she was growing up. In just one conversation many of those insecurities that get in the way of her desire to be with me go away. It is amazing and our relationship is better for it.

Nothing will change a woman's past, but her perception and feelings that are based on that past experience can be changed by just one caring person. Husbands, this is a golden opportunity to man-up and be that person. What's a husband for if not to be for his wife what she needs. She'll have an attitude of gratitude if you do.

For more on this check out 1 Corinthians 13. Best description of what love is ever.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

First rule of Italian driving "What is behind me is unimportant!"


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> First rule of Italian driving "What is behind me is unimportant!"


Does that saying apply to just bad stuff in a person's life? Maybe I can tell myself that to remove all of the hurtful things in life that shaped me as the person I am today. 

Does it apply to the good things that shaped me into the person that I am today?

If I believe that, will I be a "blank slate" each and every time that I affirm that to myself?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I'm not a hold on to regret kind of person. We messed up, it's done, let's move on. Otherwise the ones who stay in the past, and wallow in it, they get addicted to the misery and chaos. For the same reason, I have an explosive temper, and then....it's over. I don't record someone's bad deeds in my mental little black book, to throw it back in their face later and forever. That to me seems cruel. The person you're humiliating can't change the past.


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> I'm not a hold on to regret kind of person. We messed up, it's done, let's move on. Otherwise the ones who stay in the past, and wallow in it, they get addicted to the misery and chaos. For the same reason, I have an explosive temper, and then....it's over. I don't record someone's bad deeds in my mental little black book, to throw it back in their face later and forever. That to me seems cruel. The person you're humiliating can't change the past.


Runs like Dog, can you please specify what type of scenario you are referring to in your last post. Is this about not having regret over a split up or divorce. I need to understand where you are coming from to better understand what you mean by your last post. 

Appreciate your help in this question Runs like Dog! I want to better know what to think about the post and then figure out how it relates to handling sexual with holding.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Resentment, regret, stewing in it. Clearly, withholding is an affirmative act: some action you choose to take despite its corrosive effect. So that means long held resentment over something no one can change now. Very self defeating. So whatever revenge you feel is better than all the emtional and physical loss you experience by withholding. Unless you're a masochist or a martyr. Do you see?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tranquility (Mar 13, 2011)

I guess maybe in my case its a bit different. I freely admit to my resentment and holding onto it ... I'd buried it for all these years and have only recently let myself feel it. And now I feel it with a vengeance. But in my case, even though I've told my husband and counselor that there will be no more sex ... its not as if he's desperate for it and wants it. THAT'S BEEN THE WHOLE PROBLEM! So am I REALLY withholding? Saying there'll be no more sex when we barely ever had it anyway ... totally by HIS choice, not mine ... makes me rethink some of my responses in this thread. I don't really think I'm withholding after all, cuz he could really care less if we ever had sex or not.


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> Resentment, regret, stewing in it. Clearly, withholding is an affirmative act: some action you choose to take despite its corrosive effect. So that means long held resentment over something no one can change now. Very self defeating. So whatever revenge you feel is better than all the emtional and physical loss you experience by withholding. Unless you're a masochist or a martyr. Do you see?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Runs like Dog, I definitely agree! This is a true statement. On this level of problem solution, it appears to me that you are talking about some conflict between two people and the conscious decision not to hold a grudge regardless of any amends being made. Choosing not to hold a grudge is a good way to live and love.

I would add if I may, that relationships always do better if there is an environment of; "willingness to work out the problem together, open and honest communication, fighting fair, trust building, coming to agreement or reasonable compromise together, and positive reinforcement of mutual encouragement and positive exhortation. The list really goes on. Not just self sacrificially deciding not to hold a grudge, but that is great for relationships. 

Not holding personal grudges is a good way to eliminate a related portion of sexual withholding. 

I think that we have been talking about two different levels of problem / conflict resolution. I have been talking about another unrelated portion of sexual withholding. But for the purposes of answering your question about seeing your point, I see what you mean.

I will give a description of the type of problem / conflict resolution I have been talking about.... just as soon as I get back tonight. I am behind the curve ball on a good commitment I need to keep.

tranquility, good point. I hope that counseling works to heal any issues in your marriage with your husband.


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

The type of levels of problem / conflict resolution for solving sex withholding that I have been posting about so vigorously is the kind of solution that helps heal any psychological complex formed by some past wound in her life. No one can go back in time and prevent that insecurity/negative complex forming event, but the hurt that causes dysfunction can be dealt with and healed to remove any emotional obstacle to intimacy.
I do not think that it is possible to truly move on without first having forgiveness heal the wound. I am not a psychologist, but the classes that I have taken over the years on psychology bring up the topic of the subconscious mind, the mega computer working behind the scenes of our conscious thoughts. Our subconscious records everything we experience and when we dream it is our subconscious working to file those thoughts and emotions. 

The truth of the matter is that if someone hurts you then they may be able to move on, but one's subconscious never forgets the injury. In my experience, the only way to really move on is to personally address the issue, re-examine it, and remove the hurt from the experience by coming to terms with what happened and forgive the person so that it is truly possible to move on. Sweeping issues under the rug and moving on breeds secret resentment and dysfunctional complexes.

Without forgiveness, one's subconscious will replay that hurt over and over again and shape that person in a negative way. It can be one of the reasons for an inability to have sex. 
I have known marriages that were saved due to dealing with root causes to psychological issues and I see helping my wife with any issues help her to relax and be able to be affectionate. It is important to really work through things in my opinion.


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

In order to illustrate my point, my wife is upset, emotionally distant and NOT wanting to be intimate. One of us initiates time alone. We talk openly. I share how I am feeling about how I feel treated. She opens up to me about how she has been feeling treated by me. I say, "wait a minute, that is not what I meant by saying xyz". At this point she still is not ready to believe me and that is OK. 

I ask her to speak candidly and openly about "how she feels" about xyz and I ask questions that are meant to target what happened in her life to make her feel closed off to me and the situation. She opens up to me about something bad that someone did to her, or some failure in the past and how that made her feel then about herself. 

I repeat what she said and I ask her if she still feels hurt by that experience and how. She tells me how it affected her and that deep down she believes that negative thing to be true. I take a deep look at what happened and what I know of her as a person, the person she is deep down inside. 

I give her my take on the situation and I tell her the truth as I see it about her. I tell her that she is not what what that experience made her feel like she was. I remind her how special, unique, and worthy of love she is as a person. I have her affirm it to herself. She needs to believe the truth about herself and say good bye to the hurtful thing done to her in her formidable or even recent past. 

This is not psycho-babble mumbo-jumbo. All she needed to to do was revisit the pain, forgive the person who hurt her in her heart by telling someone she trusts, and then believe the truth about herself. This process is meant to demolish the complex that has made her dysfunctional in whatever matter of life she has had trouble with. She is overjoyed with relief and is able to connect emotionally to me. We put the time necessary to do this at one time to help her get through it.

I do this to help her be free from the subconscious onslaught of her complex because I care for her as a person and as my wife. Sex in our marriage then becomes an extension of the simple fact that I care about her and help her feel the way that she is supposed to feel about herself.

We all have secret pains in our lives. The teacher that told you that you were "not a good student", "stupid", "a pain in the but" etc., those things form the way we see ourselves. People certainly aren't born with insecurities. The result is a healthy marriage and a healthy sex life.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Rough Patch Sewing said:


> In order to illustrate my point, my wife is upset, emotionally distant and NOT wanting to be intimate. One of us initiates time alone. We talk openly. I share how I am feeling about how I feel treated.


She says "Sorry, I think you've mistaken me for someone who gives a sh1t." This seems to be the subtext of what a lot of people here (both sexes) get at moments like this.



> I ask her to speak candidly and openly about "how she feels" about xyz and I ask questions that are meant to target what happened in her life to make her feel closed off to me and the situation. She opens up to me about something bad that someone did to her, or some failure in the past and how that made her feel then about herself.


She tells you that seventeen years ago _YOU_ told an off-colour joke at her Uncle Knobhead's silver wedding party, she felt mortified and has never, and will never, forgive _you_.



> I repeat what she said and I ask her if she still feels hurt by that experience and how. She tells me how it affected her and that deep down she believes that negative thing to be true. I take a deep look at what happened and what I know of her as a person, the person she is deep down inside.
> 
> I give her my take on the situation and I tell her the truth as I see it about her. I tell her that she is not what what that experience made her feel like she was. I remind her how special, unique, and worthy of love she is as a person. I have her affirm it to herself. She needs to believe the truth about herself and say good bye to the hurtful thing done to her in her formidable or even recent past.


She goes back to the first bit.


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> She says "Sorry, I think you've mistaken me for someone who gives a sh1t." This seems to be the subtext of what a lot of people here (both sexes) get at moments like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds like a "grudge problem", I've been talking about emotional complex problems that eat away at her self-esteem that gets in the way of her libido. Runs Like Dog has insight into the self defeating, self deprivation issue of grudge holding from a few posts back.

It is not all-together unbelievable for a woman to hold on to a grudge concerning a 17 year old embarrassment, but there is most likely a deeper issue than just one isolated event. 

There could be general trust issues in her life and specifically trust issues with this woman's husband. Most likely this type of issue is not based on an isolated event, but rather an ongoing series of disappointments and mistrust.

Perhaps she never told her husband how the embarrassing event made her feel until 17 years later. Often wives assume that their husbands can read their minds and be intuitive about things like that because they are intuitive women. This is unfortunate, the husband may be oblivious to the offense.





Sawney Beane said:


> She goes back to the first bit.


Obviously, the woman in this scenario is embittered and resentful against her husband because it looks like a revolving door, but has this hypothetical woman been waiting for 17 years for a sincere, "I am sorry for embarrassing you" from the husband? I think it is safe to assume that in most cases the husband has already asked for forgiveness and the wife has been refusing to forgive all this time. Maybe, she does have an emotional complex problem that eats away at her self-esteem, which gets in the way of her libido after all.

If a sincere "I'm sorry is not enough to earn the sincere husband an "I forgive you" from the offended wife then one way for the husband to handle her unforgiven is to return the favor in kind and grow resentful, but that is just a stalemate. Drastic measures to build trust, where the wife feels that it is safe to forgive.

Every woman is different, so each husband should make it their #1 job to find out how to do it for their own wife. Therapy, counseling and getting at the root of many hurts can go a long way to help this withholding sex wife issue.


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

I think some women are insane..


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

Some men are insane to let the marriage die rather than try to crack the complex emotional nut that is a woman. In a lot of cases, if you gain her trust again and simply be her friend she will tell her man how to get her feeling right again.

It is not easy to do this and it can take time and sometimes the money for a good counselor or home marriage repair system, but women are well worth the effort. She will respect and love the man who makes her feel special enough to feel good again.

Fragile women need to be loved gently in order to make them open up sexually to her husband.

If it is not the husband who makes her feel special about herself it will be some smart guy who has figured it out (not me though) who will reap the rewards. Make that man YOU and you have got it made. 

Personally, I am willing to put up with some emotional insanity to get my love life back. We went months without sex and I was going crazy. I slowed down on building my business (not enough time with her and she was jealous of the attention I was giving it) a few late nights talking together, me genuinely caring for her needs, proving to her that she was more important than the business.... and now the love life is JUMPING HOT!

Don't solve a female problem with a male mentality. Get her to open up and she will help you do it.. if you are trustworthy.


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

Again,... Every woman is different and withholds for different reasons, but I think that TLC and loving understanding (even if it her needs don't make sense to you) in her love tank on a daily basis gets the gears going again.

Then you will know that when she does not feel up to it, you can at least agree to be intimate together soon. This is not "nice guying" her to bed, it is pushing the right buttons at the right time for her needs so she can want it again.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Rough Patch Sewing said:


> Obviously, the woman in this scenario is embittered and resentful against her husband because it looks like a revolving door, but has this hypothetical woman been waiting for 17 years for a sincere, "I am sorry for embarrassing you" from the husband? I think it is safe to assume that in most cases the husband has already asked for forgiveness and the wife has been refusing to forgive all this time. Maybe, she does have an emotional complex problem that eats away at her self-esteem, which gets in the way of her libido after all.
> 
> If a sincere "I'm sorry is not enough to earn the sincere husband an "I forgive you" from the offended wife then one way for the husband to handle her unforgiven is to return the favor in kind and grow resentful, but that is just a stalemate. Drastic measures to build trust, where the wife feels that it is safe to forgive.
> 
> Every woman is different, so each husband should make it their #1 job to find out how to do it for their own wife. Therapy, counseling and getting at the root of many hurts can go a long way to help this withholding sex wife issue.


Obviously, all of your (good) suggestions are relying on both partners wanting to move on. At the risk of repetition, some people would rather feel right than happy.

Also, I think there are some people who never truly forgive - I have a work colleague in this position (where the above example came from). He has apologised, had the error of his ways pointed out, and been "forgiven", but it's a bit like having once been convicted for a crime: even if you've served the sentence, the record of it follows follows you! Even though he has been forgiven, the record of what he did is not expunged and follows him. And is still taken into consideration when he is deemed to be failing at anything else:rofl:


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Oh, I 100% agree with you. It would be easier though if certain behavior didn't continue. It makes things raw much easier.


True, but all you can do is change your attitude. 

His belongs to him.

It took me a long time (I'm stubborn and hard-headed), but I finally realized that the real change I was seeking was inside of me - not him.

Once I really, truly realized this - things have changed. I am much happier, more at peace and in a much better frame of mind to deal with my resentment, disappointment and frustration.

In turn, he has become more at peace and happier.

Have our issues/problems disappeared - hell no they haven't. But they seem a lot less insurmountable and just - easier. 

And I stress and think about them less.

I wish I had really embraced this sooner - we wouldn't have gotten to the point we did if I had.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

socal04 said:


> i have been in counseling for 2 months now and doing MAX work.. and have apologized several times.... shes holding on to resentment from YEARS ago.. seems stuck...


In long term marriages partners hurt one another. Those that don’t forgive hold onto their hurts and resentment builds. Day by day these resentful play back their hurts in their mind recreating the same emotions as when a hurt first occurred.

Passive people get their own back and actually plot their revenge, which may come five or thirty years after the event which caused them pain. You might want to research "passive aggression" Passive-aggressive behavior: How can I recognize it? - MayoClinic.com. Mind you since I found out about it I have it on the brain.

Bob


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

Passive Aggression seems like it may be a factor. This truly is a complicated thing that needs more attention from the counseling community.

Grudges and unforgiven issues can become the scissors that rip people apart. I wonder if therapy or medication for passive aggressive behavior could help.

I am interested in finding out more, tomorrow will be a better opportunity to do so.


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## mindeater (Jun 7, 2011)

Not exactly on topic, but it is a factor for us, albiet a symptom of deep hurt from stupid mistakes I've made over the last 2 years turning down further children without a real reason, (we have one 4 year old daughter), and not providing for her out of nothing more than selfishness.

After rejecting her request for a new car, then a 2nd child she felt I was not providing anything for her and our marriage so gave up wanting to stop the hurt.

We split for 6 months, and tried to get back together, but my understanding of her levels of hurt were off track, and my pressuring to get things going too soon caused us to lapse again.

I love her deeply, and I'm ashamed of what's gone before, simply saying that doesn't make up for a lot at this stage.

With sex completely out of the question, as some have mentioned, the thought of it stresses her out so much, I wonder if there is any way back for us.

We have a first marriage counselling session with Relate this evening, not sure what to expect, worried that she will say she no longer wants to be part of our marriage, using the counselling to ease the break up.

Does anyone have any experience with Relate when things have gone this far?


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## annagarret (Jun 12, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Doesn't matter if it's right or wrong. It's death to a relationship, so it's not smart unless the intent is to destroy the marriage.


Unfortunately, I did do this to my DH the first 5-7 yrs. of marriage. I thought he would "get it". Praise God I unlearned that tactic, it is a marriage killer. I read a lot of books about men and realized he wants and needs sex to survive. I NEVER withhold it now. Whatever and whenever he wants it-he gets it.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

annagarret said:


> Unfortunately, I did do this to my DH the first 5-7 yrs. of marriage. I thought he would "get it". Praise God I unlearned that tactic, it is a marriage killer. I read a lot of books about men and realized he wants and needs sex to survive. I NEVER withhold it now. Whatever and whenever he wants it-he gets it.


You are a WISE woman and your husband is one lucky bastard


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

I recently told my sister in law, who is a busy professional one piece of advice about the type of man she should look for when she is ready. 

I said to her, "You do not need to find a man who meets your expectations of the kind of guy that you want to marry." I went on to beg the question, "Do you know the one quality that the guy you will want to marry should have?" She says, "No." I quickly answer, "Find a man who is willing". She says, "What do you mean?" I say, "the man that you will be happy with and with whom you can have a strong marriage is a man who is willing to..., now you fill in the blank. He should be a reasonable man who is willing to learn and grow. He doesn't need to be the perfect guy, because that guy does not exist. He needs to be willing to do what it takes to make the marriage work and learn and grow as part of that".

This applies to both men and women and definitely applies to sex in marriage and forgiveness.

I wanted to add this to annagarret's previous post

"Unfortunately, I did do this to my DH the first 5-7 yrs. of marriage. I thought he would "get it". Praise God I unlearned that tactic, it is a marriage killer. I read a lot of books about men and realized he wants and needs sex to survive. I NEVER withhold it now. Whatever and whenever he wants it-he gets it"

That's willingness to make the marriage work as long as doing so does not breed resentment but rather an  intimate marriage. 

annagarret, does your willingness help you to want it once your husband has expressed the desire to have sex with you?
Enquirer-ing minds want to know!


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## socal04 (Apr 28, 2011)

annagarret said:


> Unfortunately, I did do this to my DH the first 5-7 yrs. of marriage. I thought he would "get it". Praise God I unlearned that tactic, it is a marriage killer. I read a lot of books about men and realized he wants and needs sex to survive. I NEVER withhold it now. Whatever and whenever he wants it-he gets it.



yea where did u read that?


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## annagarret (Jun 12, 2011)

Yes, it does. I really didn't want out marriage to keep going in circles like that, him mad at me, me mad at him. Change starts with one person. I thought I would read and learn about what makes a man and marriage happy. It worked. Since that time he has fallen deeper and deeper in love with me and our family, completely trusts me, and would do anything to make me happy. I t's funny I thought I was doing something to make him happy, but we both ended up fullfilling each others needs. I couldn't be happier, he is a great guy. Sometimes it takes one spouse to make the first move toward change. It worked for us !


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## annagarret (Jun 12, 2011)

I read "The gift of sex" by Clifford and Joyce Penner, "A celebration of sex" by Dr. Couglas E Rosenau, "What makes a man feel loved:Understanding what your husband really wants" by Bob Barnes, "Every mans Battle" by Stephen Arterburn (which is really a book for men on how to handle unhealthy lustful desires and porn addiction) and "Sheet Music" by Dr. Kevin Leman


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## miss-understood (Jun 13, 2011)

Reuben said:


> Men want one basic thing in a marriage. That is to feel like they are important to the relationship. Women need one basic thing. They need to feel secure in a relationship.
> ---
> Neither of you should use sex as a weapon to get what you want. You don't have the right to refuse each other



Hi Reuben!

I quoted two sections of one of your posts. I like the way you phrased that first quote! That really sums it up!

I have a question about the second quote - I don't understand the difference between saying "no" (genuinely just not up for it - or a wife being on her cycle, or whatever), versus "refusing" a husband.

You said that neither has the right to refuse each other. But surely this doesn't mean that a wife doesn't have the right to say "no" when she really doesn't remotely want to do it, or if it's a really a bad time or would be distressing for her, or highly unpleasant???

And not being in the mood is not the same as using sex "as a weapon", right? (Even though... the rejection may "hurt" a bit at times - but conversely, allowing something to be done to us that would be distressing would also "hurt", in a different way). 

Thoughts?


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

miss-understood said:


> Hi Reuben!
> 
> I quoted two sections of one of your posts. I like the way you phrased that first quote! That really sums it up!
> 
> ...


I think that even though we may have had a bad day, we must still make an effort with our partners. If a husband despite what is happening tries to treat his wife with genuine affection and love and tries very hard to meet her emotional need in spite of work stress, tiredness, children, disagreements etc, then the wife should also try and make an effort sexually.

If a husband loves his wife, he would not try and make a women who is really unwell have sex or anything like that. However both people must not let the daily grind, general tiredness and other every day things get in the way of their intimate and physical relationship.

Also if your husband is not turning you on, have you thought long and hard about what does turn you on and asked him to do those things?

If you ask him and he refuses or makes a half assed attempt, then he can't blame you for not being in the mood.

I myself have a high sex drive, however I do need for my partner to help maintain my attraction to him. It really turns me on when he is dominate, uses dirty talk, also it is very important that he gives me lots of non sexual and some sexual contact throughout the day, so that I feel close to him and it warms me up. I like it when he tells me how sexy he thinks I am and notices something specific, like my eyes or my hair...

Well you get the picture, but I in turn have to be willing to put aside any thing he may have done that day that I didn't like and not be resentful, and be open to being turned on and having sex.

I do want a faithful husband and as I am the only one that can give him sex, then I do think I should.

Plus it makes men a lot happier when you take care of their needs.


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## Ishtar (Jun 17, 2011)

I have never withheld, simply because I am unable too. Even if I had more restraint, I would refrain from withholding for the sake of my relationship. While sex is but one facet of marriage, marriage is fundamentally a sexual union. To purposefully withhold sex breaks the marital contract. Avoiding what is essentially a reaffirmation of your union in which you get to meet the needs of your partner and hopefully have pleasure yourself is beyond foolish. As always, there are exceptions such as when someone is ill, being cheated on, or in an abusive relationship, but in general withholding is one of the most petty and manipulative things someone can do. The sad thing is that from my personal experience many women (and I am sure some men) do withhold; their poor spouses!


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