# Ted talk on happy couples that cheat



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2AUat93a8Q&feature=share

Ted talk: Why happy couples cheat. 

I love this Ted talk and find that I agree with her. (Obviously not all cases of infidelity are like this). I think it's a much watch! As well as the Ted talk: the sex starved marriage.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Is your H cheating?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

No. And we are not a happy couple lol. 

I love Ted talks and I was watching some yesterday while I was doing a school paper and I loved this one so I thought I'd share it.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep2MAx95m20&feature=share 
and this one is good. To all the wives out there who don't realize how important sex is to a man.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> No.


Good. :smile2:


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Katie,

In what ways do you identify with the first video you posted?

Do you believe that infidelity creates an opportunity for renewal of a marriage and at the same time, a path forward to find yourself?

How do you identify with the topic of the bible saying, "just thinking about sex with someone else is infidelity", with regard to Esther's admission that the idea that an affair is forbidden and it's tough to find the time and opportunity to get together with the affair partner and how that creates a deeper longing and connection when thinking about getting together?

When Esther says that an affair is really about the person having it and their longing to be someone different than they always have felt obligation to be, do you think there are ways to explore life in ways that do not include infidelity, yet help you to have a life that will not make you feel like you have no control? 

It seems that infidelity is about getting emotional needs met, as well. Are there other ways to get emotional needs met that do not include infidelity?

What do you think causes a person to be unfaithful rather than making a permanent change with divorce, since it is so easy to obtain, instead of cheating? Do you think it's because they are afraid to fully commit to a new life without the security of the current relationship/marriage? Do you think this is related to what Esther says about wanting something better, not being satisfied with the happiness present, wanting more, or some variant of those?

Due to the current constantly changing individual ideas about what happiness, commitment, and the seemingly insatiable appetite for more, better, happier, the relationship with that new car smell, do you think it is wise for anyone to commit to marriage and children. For clarity, I think children thrive in stability and consistency.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> Katie,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don't identify with this Ted talk, but I find it very interesting and there are a lot of truths to it. 

She is not pro affair. She is just saying it is not the end all be all. It may be, but doesn't have to be. Me personally... If I had a great marriage and a great relationship with my husband I think I MIGHT be able to get over an affair. If my marriage is not good, then an affair will be the nail on the coffin. 

I have this one friend i work with that had cheated on his wife. But he is obsessed with her and loves her and would never want to be with another women. Talking to him made me realize that some people cheat even though they are happy. Some people cheat and it has nothing to do with their spouse. Emphasis on SOME. This is not an excuse to their behavior but there is a reason to it. An affair is wrong no matter what. No one is saying it isn't. This Ted talk is not an excuse to bad behavior, it's an attempt to understand it. The reality is, affairs happen all the time and I think it's good to understand the mindset of these people sometimes. Let me emphasize this... Understanding the behavior is NOT excusing the behavior.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I find it an interesting topic when people are happily married and still decide to cheat. With all the information out there today about how traumatic affairs are and how damaging divorce is to children, and the fact that happily married people still choose to cheat baffles me! Most people view these people as the devil, such horrible selfish people who think only of themselves. For me, a part of me feels bad for this person. I find them to be very sad, empty, and selfish. These people are searching for something. And what they are searching for, what they feel they are missing... THAT is really interesting to me. Like what is it that someone is willing to destroy and damage their family that if found would be worth it? It blows my mind. 
I am a born again Christian. I am emotional, and I have compassion and empathy and the ability to form strong connections and feel things. My husband is f*cked up, he has PA personality and I don't think he has the ability to feel love, and to connect to people. He is unable to be vulnerable and love anyone more than he loves himself and protects himself. Even though my husband emotionally manipulates me and doesn't treat me that great, I still feel bad for him. There is a sadness and emptiness that I see there. 
I think a lot of these people make bad decisions like having an affair, and it's easy for people to refer to them as selfish and stupid and basically the devil. And I think that pill is easy to swallow for them than being exposed for what they really are. Which to me, is a very sad, empty, messed up person who I honestly pity.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> I don't identify with this Ted talk, but I find it very interesting and there are a lot of truths to it.


It is interesting. Not so sure about the truths. Esther seems to think there are as many reasons as there are individuals. Then she goes on to tell us why she thinks folks in good marriages cheat. It's kind of like saying that everything after that is just opinion and not meant to be relied upon. 



katiecrna said:


> She is not pro affair. She is just saying it is not the end all be all. It may be, but doesn't have to be.


As a good psychologist should be, she is publicly neither pro affair, nor pro marriage.

I think when you say, "... it is not the end all be all", you mean it doesn't have to be traumatic, nor the end of the marriage. Is that what you meant? 



katiecrna said:


> Me personally... If I had a great marriage and a great relationship with my husband I think I MIGHT be able to get over an affair. If my marriage is not good, then an affair will be the nail on the coffin.


So, you would be in a marriage for what you can get out of it, not for what you can offer to your partner? Because, even as Esther stated, one person cannot complete another's goals and happiness. For me, that was a "duh" moment. In other words, "no kidding Esther? Who would'a thunk it? I'd never have known if you didn't tell me". That was meant to be humorous. 




katiecrna said:


> I have this one friend i work with that had cheated on his wife. But he is obsessed with her and loves her and would never want to be with another women.


Obsession is not a good thing, yet, if he truly was, he'd never have done anything she didn't want him to do. He well may love her, but it isn't likely a normal committed love. If he didn't want to be with another woman, did she rape him or did he choose to be with another woman? He's full of **it. 



katiecrna said:


> Talking to him made me realize that some people cheat even though they are happy. Some people cheat and it has nothing to do with their spouse. Emphasis on SOME. This is not an excuse to their behavior but there is a reason to it.


This is what I was thinking when I read this. You are thinking strongly about what it means to cheat and if it's okay or not. We all have to choose what boundaries we have. 

By the way, those who do cheat, all of them, do not do it thinking about their marriage, their commitment, their past with their spouse, but with complete selfishness and justification for their behavior. No one knows what their spouse is thinking. If there was love and it was a good marriage, how could a cheating spouse not consider their partner's feelings, not knowing how they will feel when they find out? I don't think that is love or a good marriage.



katiecrna said:


> An affair is wrong no matter what. No one is saying it isn't. This Ted talk is not an excuse to bad behavior, it's an attempt to understand it. The reality is, affairs happen all the time and I think it's good to understand the mindset of these people sometimes. Let me emphasize this... Understanding the behavior is NOT excusing the behavior.


I hear you. I don't necessarily believe you since you've stated that a guy at work is looking for romance outside of his marriage. You are in a not so good one. There is still love in his marriage, so an affair partner would not be breaking them up. It would just be validating the affair partner's thoughts that she is worth much more than she is getting in her current relationship/marriage. Not an excuse, but a justification or reason, if you will.

I wanted to add this:

You say you are a Christian. If so, then we measure our love against what is written.

Romans 13:10 
Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1Corinthians 13:4-8
Charity suffereth long and is kind...well here is a copy and paste. It wouldn't hurt to read this chapter and the one before.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

I am not evangelical or born again, though I agree with many of their beliefs.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think that anyone who cheats is by definition not in a happy marriage. I think this not for the reason that many people who just read that sentence probably assume.

I think this because the supposed happiness in the marriage almost certainly depends at that point (post-cheating) on the BS remaining in ignorance. If the infidelity is discovered, the happiness disappears in a puff of smoke. Even without the discovery, both spouses live with inner lives that are most probably not particularly happy. 

It's thus my opinion, katie, that your friend at work is not in a happy marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

katiecrna said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2AUat93a8Q&feature=share
> 
> Ted talk: Why happy couples cheat.
> 
> I love this Ted talk and find that I agree with her. (Obviously not all cases of infidelity are like this). I think it's a much watch! As well as the Ted talk: the sex starved marriage.


I really like Esther Perel. She also has a very good book that I think would help most couples "Mating in Captivity".


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

The only point I disagree with is the "shame" of staying in a marriage gone bad these days. 
Maybe it's like that in countries where divorce is often too easy. 
Not true for certain Catholic countries, where you're often told to work on it & if you get divorced you've failed. 





Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> It is interesting. Not so sure about the truths. Esther seems to think there are as many reasons as there are individuals. Then she goes on to tell us why she thinks folks in good marriages cheat. It's kind of like saying that everything after that is just opinion and not meant to be relied upon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you for the bible lesson. First thing i want to say is... Having sex outside of marriage is wrong. Period. Having an affair is wrong. Period. But people are sinned and you can't control them. And we will always sin. I am Christian, I hold myself to a Christian standard, and when I fall and sin (which I do a lot), I hope my friends/family/ and loved ones will forgive me just as I know God forgives. I can't force my husband to be Christian and live by the same standards I do. I can't force my husband to be perfect, because he will never be. 

Jesus is a turn the other cheek God. He is a love conquers all, forgive and be nice to everyone kind of God. Everyone deserves love and kindness. God doesn't mean that you have to put up with abuse and bad behavior. We can love and be kind to people from a distance. 

My favorite story In the bible which I believe fully encompasses who Jesus is and why I love him is the story with the adulterant women. This women was caught sleeping with a married man, she was about to get stoned to death which was the penalty of such crime in that day. So the people circled her and were about to start stoning her when Jesus walks up. The religious leaders were like well this is the penalty to the crime. Jesus said fine, whoever has never sinned throw the first stone. Eventually they all dropped their stones and walked away. The girl was shocked, thanked Jesus asked for his forgiveness for her life had been spared. Jesus looked down on her and he could of said a lot of things... What the hell where u thinking? How can you betray your husband? You owe your life to me, promise me you will never do it again, go say 500 rosaries and dedicate your life to me. He didn't say any of those. He saw she was truly sorry, and all he said was... Go, and sin no more. That story is powerful to me because it shows the love of God, and the compassion for his people. When Peter asked Jesus, how many times should I forgive someone who has sinned against me? 7 times? Jesus replied... 70 times 7. Of course this is not literal, he means we should always forgive. 

Forgiveness doesn't mean acceptance. And it doesnt mean we have to still be with the person.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

alte Dame said:


> I think that anyone who cheats is by definition not in a happy marriage. .


I think people cheat because they are selfish and they can (baring chemical impairment, like black out drunk). That's all. There is no secret, or fog, or deep meaning. They may be broken but plenty of broken people don't cheat, plenty of people who are in unhappy marriages don't cheat. Plenty of people who are in happy marriages do cheat, they just think they are entitled for more. Cheaters could save a lot of money by skipping counseling and just admitting to themselves that at that moment they didn't give a crap about their SO and wanted what they wanted for themselves. Just be honest about it. Now that all hell broke lose maybe they learned there lesson and they realize it wasn't worth it, but doesn't really change what they did. I get this is also hard for the BS because then they have to admit that there WS is capable of being so selfish. It's easier to blame it on circumstance. 

There are really two types of people in the world cheaters and non-cheaters. Kind of like being a virgin and a non virgin. The best that counseling can do is give the cheater better coping skills so they don't put them into the position to be tempted. 

Here is the fallacy of this thinking (circumstance make cheaters). By your logic any person who is rich would never steal and yet rich people steal all the time. Every poor person is a thief, and yet most poor people don't steal. Cheating comes from the mentality of entitlement. We are an entitled society hence more cheating.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Jesus is a turn the other cheek God. He is a love conquers all, forgive and be nice to everyone kind of God. Everyone deserves love and kindness.


He is also the "den of vipers god", and wiping the merchants out of the temple god, the "thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck" god. He was was merciful to the repentant sinner. I think just seeing him as turn the other cheek is a very shallow view of him.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> Thank you for the bible lesson. First thing i want to say is... Having sex outside of marriage is wrong. Period. Having an affair is wrong. Period. But people are sinned and you can't control them. And we will always sin. I am Christian, I hold myself to a Christian standard, and when I fall and sin (which I do a lot), I hope my friends/family/ and loved ones will forgive me just as I know God forgives. I can't force my husband to be Christian and live by the same standards I do. I can't force my husband to be perfect, because he will never be.
> 
> Jesus is a turn the other cheek God. He is a love conquers all, forgive and be nice to everyone kind of God. Everyone deserves love and kindness. God doesn't mean that you have to put up with abuse and bad behavior. We can love and be kind to people from a distance.
> 
> ...


Did you learn about rebuking? This isn't the same as god judging for all eternity. It's holding believers accountable and reminding them of their commitment. 

Don't feel guilty Katie. The post about love and charity goes both ways in a marriage. If your husband is beating you, get the hell out, now! 

The story about the adulterous woman is able to be interpreted in other ways. Through Jesus and only through him, can sins be forgiven. Saving her life proved this to others. The rest is just spin for the present attitude.

Forgiveness does not mean acceptance. That is true. So, do you forgive the man at work for trying to talk you into an affair with him? You do know that's what he was attempting. It's just the start; his opening arguments, if you will. 

Do you forgive those who cannot forgive you? After all, if they are sorry and confess, won't Jesus forgive them for their unforgiveness?

Thank you for thinking about what I wrote. Please try to consider it even more than you have, from an altitude of fifty thousand feet, from the perspective of someone who is not directly involved. I wish you well. I really do.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> Did you learn about rebuking? This isn't the same as god judging for all eternity. It's holding believers accountable and reminding them of their commitment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The man at work was not trying to convince me of anything, we were having a good conversation. He is old enough to be my dad. 

Of course I forgive those who don't forgive me. Forgiveness gives you piece of mind. If my husband beats me of course j will get out. No one is saying to stay in an abusive relationship. 

All I'm saying is that people who hurt people and do bad things... It says something about who they are. (Yes maybe they are a bad person, maybe they are going through something, maybe they are messed up from a lifelong psychological abuse, maybe they have mental problems). I am not excusing the behavior. The behavior is wrong, period. I'm just saying sometimes we need to look past the behavior and see the person on the other end. Look past the behavior doesn't mean accept it or put up with it! 

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Assuming the worst doesn't get you anywhere except a warped, negative outlook on life. Setting up boundaries and deciding what behavior you are willing and not willing to put up with is critical. But if my husband crosses the line and hits me, or cheats on me I will divorce him. But I know deep down inside my heart, he is not a bad guy. 

Boundaries help us protect ourselves. But realizing that when people do bad things to us is a reflection of who they are not the quality of his feelings for me or the quality of our marriage.

My husband loves me the best way that he knows how. Not necessarily the best way for me. He loves me with his imperfect, slightly narcissistic heart. How he treats me is more of a reflection of who he is not how much he loves me. And how people treat you is something you either accept, or don't. Most people don't change, or change minimally.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> The man at work was not trying to convince me of anything, we were having a good conversation. He is old enough to be my dad.


Seems to me and others he is giving you his opinion about infidelity in his life and marriage. He seems to believe that you can love someone and still be an adulterer. I gave you explanations why I did not believe him. If he is not attempting to have an affair with you, he is attempting to persuade you that affairs are no big deal. I believe both are wrong. 



katiecrna said:


> Of course I forgive those who don't forgive me. Forgiveness gives you piece of mind. If my husband beats me of course j will get out. No one is saying to stay in an abusive relationship.


Truthfully, your statement including abuse was ambiguous. It didn't seem to fit the theme of this thread and threw me off. I thought it was something you were going through. 



katiecrna said:


> All I'm saying is that people who hurt people and do bad things... It says something about who they are. (Yes maybe they are a bad person, maybe they are going through something, maybe they are messed up from a lifelong psychological abuse, maybe they have mental problems). I am not excusing the behavior. The behavior is wrong, period. I'm just saying sometimes we need to look past the behavior and see the person on the other end. Look past the behavior doesn't mean accept it or put up with it!


So, you are saying we need to look past the adultery/infidelity and into what caused them to be unfaithful? In other words, why they did it? 

You'll never know why. You can only guess. 

We can't read each other's minds. We can only know that what they have done is selfish in outward appearance and is in no way any definition of love that I know. And, since you said you were Christian, I gave you an example or two from the bible so you understood in the same manner that I did. 



katiecrna said:


> I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Assuming the worst doesn't get you anywhere except a warped, negative outlook on life. Setting up boundaries and deciding what behavior you are willing and not willing to put up with is critical.


Giving the benefit of the doubt left me with a warped view of the faithfulness of my second wife. I believed with all my strength that what I saw and heard was just me misinterpreting. After all, she is an intelligent woman who proclaimed her love for me. She is strong and mature. She would simply talk with me. We never had any big enough disagreements that she would be afraid. 

So, no, I don't give the benefit of the doubt when it is something important. Though, if you tell me that you like Hershey bars, okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. It won't hurt me if you are lying. 

I think that's a fairly healthy attitude.



katiecrna said:


> But if my husband crosses the line and hits me, or cheats on me I will divorce him. But I know deep down inside my heart, he is not a bad guy.


I'm glad. 



katiecrna said:


> Boundaries help us protect ourselves. But realizing that when people do bad things to us is a reflection of who they are not the quality of his feelings for me or the quality of our marriage.


Depends on what kind of bad things, which is certainly subjective. Again, this is so ambiguous, it's tough to respond at all. I'm not even sure what you are meaning by, "when people do 'bad things'"?



katiecrna said:


> My husband loves me the best way that he knows how. Not necessarily the best way for me. He loves me with his imperfect, slightly narcissistic heart. How he treats me is more of a reflection of who he is not how much he loves me.


We don't know how much love is in one's heart unless they actually do things for us. I'm glad you are happy. I hope you treat him lovingly.



katiecrna said:


> And how people treat you is something you either accept, or don't. Most people don't change, or change minimally.


Not sure I understand this acceptance you write about. We can accept someone is not right for us. We can accept that they are right for us. Maybe you mean we can stay with them or leave? That has little to do with acceptance and more to do with self respect and boundaries.

Yes, the fact that an adulterer will not likely change is why many will recommend divorce. Are we on the same page there or are you speaking of something other than infidelity? Again, I may be misreading you or you may not want to come right out and say what you mean?


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Open marriage. Polygamy/polyandry. Heinlein's Line Marriages... this is not a new idea. Many have tried it.

The problem is for those seeking a "traditional" pair-bonding relationship (whether humans are actually wired for this is a separate debate) is that, for most, sex with other partners will inevitably lead to transferral of that bond to another.

There is another recent thread with some very good arguments for why married men and women should be careful to not get too close emotionally to other M/F who are not their spouse (or family). The basic argument is that humans are wired to turn these experiences into emotional bonds, then physical attraction which leads to the drive for sex -- to procreate.

Most humans find it hard to fight biology. Even those who can don't enjoy doing so, so best to understand the drivers and avoid triggering them.

Hope this helps.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> Seems to me and others he is giving you his opinion about infidelity in his life and marriage. He seems to believe that you can love someone and still be an adulterer. I gave you explanations why I did not believe him. If he is not attempting to have an affair with you, he is attempting to persuade you that affairs are no big deal. I believe both are wrong.
> 
> Affairs are never ok. But I do think you can love someone and cheat on them. IMO most of the time affairs have little to do with the spouse.
> 
> ...



Cheating may or may not be a one time thing. I'm not talking about anything specific. But, for example my husband is PA, he will likely not change. When a spouse has a temper, or extreme stubbornness, or are naturally selfish they will likely not change. What I'm saying is, when you marry someone you have to accept the person as they are, for better or worse. (But of course setting boundaries for yourself) No one is perfect so everyone that is married has to realize that if their spouse has a "character flaw" which I'm sure we all do, that has to be kind of accepted. I'm not talking about abuse, or serial cheating because obviously these should never we accepted. We need to take the good with our spouses and the bad, because that's what makes our spouse who they are.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Katie, can you edit that so your responses within my quoted post are distinguishable? I'll be able to read it then. Thanks. 

By the way, I am enjoying this debate. My appreciation to you.

I like what @sapientia had to say. I read about those bonds a few years ago and have tried to find the site I posted from, but haven't been able. What I read through a few sites and TAM, led me to the same conclusions. It is basically a reason I put some blame on the AP. It takes two, you know?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

From my perspective cheating in a marriage that one is happy in is so many times worse. 

That suggests an underlying selfish, entitled mentality that you can't work with. 

At least in s struggling marriage one can understand where an affair might come from, even if it's a terrible thing to do.

Would anyone here honestly view a guy who cheats on a sexless marriage and a guy who cheats but gets plenty of sex at home and is otherwise happy with his wife the same? 

Not a chance. The sexless guy would be kind of understood..... I've seen threads like that. Comments about how the wife is a cold fish and he should dump her anyway. 

Happy guy would be seen as a scumbag who just thought with his d!ck, and rightly so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Esther Perel, Rethinking infidelity ... a talk for anyone who has ever loved 
18:37
"Every affair will redefine a relationship, and every couple will determine what the legacy of the affair will be. But affairs are here to stay, and they're not going away. And the dilemmas of love and desire, they don't yield just simple answers of black and white and good and bad, and victim and perpetrator. Betrayal in a relationship comes in many forms. There are many ways that we betray our partner: with contempt, with neglect, with indifference, with violence. Sexual betrayal is only one way to hurt a partner. In other words, the victim of an affair is not always the victim of the marriage."

https://www.ted.com/talks/esther_pe...one_who_has_ever_loved/transcript?language=en
____

To often, where we have landed, this society feeling that they are owed and entitled to betray another while the ugliness of reflection in the mirror is intentionally unrecognized or ignored... forgetting to appreciate the present and eager to make mindful suicide a hobby of selfish mutual assured destruction for both affair partners.

For me, her message is one of looking for fulfillment outside of self and the mistakes found in that focus of external searching... and that some may be able to rise from the ashes.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I think that anyone who cheats is by definition not in a happy marriage.





sokillme said:


> I think people cheat because they are selfish and they can (baring chemical impairment, like black out drunk). That's all. There is no secret, or fog, or deep meaning. They may be broken but plenty of broken people don't cheat, plenty of people who are in unhappy marriages don't cheat. Plenty of people who are in happy marriages do cheat, they just think they are entitled for more. Cheaters could save a lot of money by skipping counseling and just admitting to themselves that at that moment they didn't give a crap about their SO and wanted what they wanted for themselves. Just be honest about it. Now that all hell broke lose maybe they learned there lesson and they realize it wasn't worth it, but doesn't really change what they did. I get this is also hard for the BS because then they have to admit that there WS is capable of being so selfish. It's easier to blame it on circumstance.
> 
> There are really two types of people in the world cheaters and non-cheaters. Kind of like being a virgin and a non virgin. The best that counseling can do is give the cheater better coping skills so they don't put them into the position to be tempted.
> 
> Here is the fallacy of this thinking (circumstance make cheaters). By your logic any person who is rich would never steal and yet rich people steal all the time. Every poor person is a thief, and year most poor people don't steal. Cheating comes from the mentality of entitlement. We are an entitled society hence more cheating.


You quoted me out of context and missed my point,


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

alte Dame said:


> You quoted me out of context and missed my point,


You're right, I'm sorry. That sentence makes me rage. Your explanation makes total sense.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> From my perspective cheating in a marriage that one is happy in is so many times worse.
> 
> That suggests an underlying selfish, entitled mentality that you can't work with.
> 
> ...


There the same in the sense that they are cheaters, and cowards. They are too passive to end it, or even ask for an open marriage. All cheaters by their nature are cowards. My sympathy stops when they cheat. Personally I view them all with contempt. Maybe not there whole being but as far as their relationships with their spouses..


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Maybe happy people still cheat but being a happy person does not make them a decent person.

I would not remain with a man that cheated on me, not even once. It would no longer be about him, it would be about my own self respect as I see people that stay with a partner that has cheated on them as being very weak.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> And katiecrna I don't think a guy at work should be telling you about his having had affairs on his wife. Not really work appropriate. I don't know if he's trying the waters with you or not. But it seems, at the very least, to be in bad taste.


I let people (men and women) who want to share such things know that there are clergy or therapists trained for such things and all I can offer them is a buddhist perspective on curbing unhealthy desires... most loose interest pretty quickly but funnily enough, it's the guys who stick around and ask how that works.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> Me personally... If I had a great marriage and a great relationship with my husband I think I MIGHT be able to get over an affair. If my marriage is not good, then an affair will be the nail on the coffin.


One thing I know for certain is that you have no idea how you would react if you found out your husband was cheating. All the academic stuff is fun & interesting for some people but I wonder how many of them would change their opinions if faced with it in real life.

Most people believe that infidelity is a deal breaker but very few BS's kick the cheater out on d-day and then file for divorce and never look back. Very few. As Esther pointed out, most couples stay together - at least for a while - after infidelity but that some of them merely survive. Whatever happens to the relationship in the wake of d-day is NOT the end of the damage done by infidelity. It will take years for the final chapter to play out.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Are you ever worried that if you get involved in conversations with co-workers about sex; that you could somehow get accused of sexual harassment? Talk about "no good deed goes unpunished".
> 
> Even if someone else overheard you talking about sexual issues at work; they could claim that you were being inappropriate, or making them uncomfortable.
> 
> ...


I truly hear you, I work in a "People Business" that requires confidentiality in data and deed... I never get into sex or sexual discussions, if that arises I quickly and professionally guide them to their clergy or recommend going to a counselor or therapist (and I don't even guide there) and make them aware of the company EAP as any supervisor should. I never present myself as a "Dear Abby Agony Aunt", they know me well enough and my boundaries even better... but they also know I will offer them a different and encouraging perspective of self should they ask, and of how stress of wanting and suffering relate. 

These aren't lengthy discussions... there is work to be done and I never meet outside of work with these discussions, but simply snippets for them to consider how desires impact us and how the unhealthy ones take away from our appreciation of what we have.

Very different here... this forum allows me the freedom of sharing in a social arena at a personal level, I have found incredible growth here by listening to others, I only hope that sharing thoughts may offer insight for what is sought.

Thanks for caring!:grin2:


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I talk about sex and relationships and affairs at work all the time. And it's mostly brought up by me. I love having good conversations and there are people who love to engage in that and there are others that don't so they don't. I also love talking about religion and politics, and weird hypothetical scenarios. When u find people that love to engage in convo and learn from each other and let their guard down its better than any Saturday night at bar or club. It's literally my favorite thing to do.... Talk to people and have a real honest convo.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I think that marriage has its ups and downs. You could be in a good happy marriage but you could be at a "low" point in your marriage which is normal. People who have happy Marriages don't say they are happy 24/7. And even if the marriage is good, doesn't mean the person is good and happy and in a good place in their own life. That's why I think people that have happy marriages can cheat. It's not about the marriage but themselves


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Also.... Your marriage is a small part of who you are. Sometimes people make their marriage their life and their identity but these people often feel unhappy and unsatisfied. I am an individual, and there are many things that encompass who I am and my marriage is only one of those things. Affairs are more complicated than just not being happy in their marriage.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

drifter777 said:


> One thing I know for certain is that you have no idea how you would react if you found out your husband was cheating. All the academic stuff is fun & interesting for some people but I wonder how many of them would change their opinions if faced with it in real life.
> 
> 
> 
> Most people believe that infidelity is a deal breaker but very few BS's kick the cheater out on d-day and then file for divorce and never look back. Very few. As Esther pointed out, most couples stay together - at least for a while - after infidelity but that some of them merely survive. Whatever happens to the relationship in the wake of d-day is NOT the end of the damage done by infidelity. It will take years for the final chapter to play out.




I agree. I don't know why I said such an ignorant statement. I have no idea how I would respond.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I talk about sex and relationships and affairs at work all the time. And it's mostly brought up by me. I love having good conversations and there are people who love to engage in that and there are others that don't so they don't. I also love talking about religion and politics, and weird hypothetical scenarios. When u find people that love to engage in convo and learn from each other and let their guard down its better than any Saturday night at bar or club. It's literally my favorite thing to do.... Talk to people and have a real honest convo.


True, passionate and good conversations with open participation are always nice, but I have witnessed firsthand what @notmyrealname4 is talking about and the lawsuits that came from it... the depositions, in-person interviews, went to the courtroom actually all over a sexual harassment complaint that those overheard had a pattern of intimidation by being so open in a public office, break room, primary board room... hundreds of thousands of dollars wasted in litigation from open and lively conversations in the work place because people comfortable with their opinions were around people that were not... know your audience is what I teach my team.

It's a minefield, and even the sapper forgets where they are all placed... I prefer to save such conversations for people I don't work with, but maybe that's also residual military fraternization indoctrination at work as well... still working on some of that.

As for a bar or club with people I don't work with, now that can be fun.

Nicely, I have you guys.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

MrsHolland said:


> Maybe happy people still cheat but being a happy person does not make them a decent person.
> 
> I would not remain with a man that cheated on me, not even once. It would no longer be about him, it would be about my own self respect as I see people that stay with a partner that has cheated on them as being very weak.


Someone I know found out her H was cheating. She stayed but they never had sex again. She divorced him when her last kid left home.

Makes one wonder about those marriages where spouses are civil but distant with each other.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> Thank you for the bible lesson. First thing i want to say is... Having sex outside of marriage is wrong. Period. Having an affair is wrong. Period. But people are sinned and you can't control them. And we will always sin.
> 
> My favorite story In the bible which I believe fully encompasses who Jesus is and why I love him is the story with the adulterant women. This women was caught sleeping with a married man, she was about to get stoned to death which was the penalty of such crime in that day. So the people circled her and were about to start stoning her when Jesus walks up.


Having sex outside of marriage being wrong is an opinion. Sexual incompatibility happens a lot. Its more a benefit for the man, and in the OLD days, there were not DNA tests to confirm who the father is.

Women get stoned to death every day somewhere in the world, for various crimes such as adultery to simply being looked at by a man. A mother in Pakistan recently stabbed, tortured and burned her own daughter alive because she married a woman she was in love with, not an arranged marriage. But hey, its honor killing by old laws.

Men, don't get treated this bad usually. Its about 1 (m) to 15 (f) on honor killings.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Note: being "A good Christian" doesn't keep someone from cheating. As one of the threads here, a pastor (married) had a sexual affair with one of his flock (a married woman). Almost any well known religious person has been busted having sex outside the marriage. Sometimes they blame the devil.

A lot of people cheat. Weak and not thinking about the other person seems to be the norm.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Being a pastor or a religious leader does not make you a good Christian @TaDor . It makes you look like your a good Christian but only God knows our hearts and only he truly knows who is a good Christian or not. 

And unfortunately this world is very sexist, and the punishment for women is and has always been much worse for women than for men in terms of infidelity. (Except homosexual men). Anyway... This unfortunate truth makes the story about Jesus and what he did for the adulterating women more amazing.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> Being a pastor or a religious leader does not make you a good Christian


And having an affair doesn't make you a bad Christian either. Just a flawed one, which as a believer, anyone should understand is everyone's lot in life.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

But when one cheats, does the couple remain happy?

I somehow doubt it.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> But when one cheats, does the couple remain happy?
> 
> I somehow doubt it.


Not in the short term. But in the long term, like everything in life, it depends.

A couple with a penitent cheater and a gracious betrayed can recover ample happiness. What is lost forever is innocence and that blissful, if completely unrealistic feeling that it could never happen. 

It's not necessarily happiness that's lost forever so much as something that was never reality in the first place. While I can't argue that this is a good thing always, it's also not always a happiness destroyer. 

There are lots of ways in a marriage to discover that your spouse isn't completely the person you thought them to be. That discovery, through cheating, drinking, gambling, addiction, or character flaws surely opens your eyes. It does not have to spell the end of the relationship or its potential to be fully gratifying and fully rewarding.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Festivus said:


> Not in the short term. But in the long term, like everything in life, it depends.
> 
> A couple with a penitent cheater and a gracious betrayed can recover ample happiness. What is lost forever is innocence and that blissful, if completely unrealistic feeling that it could never happen.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

MrsHolland said:


> as I see people that stay with a partner that has cheated on them as being very weak.


I don't know what is it lately seeing a lot of these type statements around here, but it's a bit annoying to some of those that decided to R... I mean you or anyone else are entitled to their opinion or what not, but not all of those that decided to R did so out of weakness....you can generalize at will but that's all it is, assumptions and stereotyping.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Festivus said:


> And having an affair doesn't make you a bad Christian either. Just a flawed one, which as a believer, anyone should understand is everyone's lot in life.


NO! Having an affair makes you an A-hole! Not simply "flawed".

I hate the crap if someone screws up, but its not so-bad because "he's a Christian" who simply lost his way.

If someone needs organized religion to have morals, then in my book - they don't really have morals.

Hence, as the video talks about (which I watched) - is that affairs happen even in the very best of marriages. Being religious don't keep someone from being an A-hole, a rapist or a murderer.

Unfortunately, the fear of God does sometimes prevent or reduce the number of crimes (rape and murder) a person does, rather then "cure" them from their actual evil personalities.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TaDor said:


> NO! Having an affair makes you an A-hole! Not simply "flawed".
> 
> I hate the crap if someone screws up, but its not so-bad because "he's a Christian" who simply lost his way.


You're arguing with a utterly irredeemable hard-core atheist here.

All I'm saying is that being a Christian doesn't inoculate you from all of the bad behaviors associated with being a human being, and having an affair doesn't mean you weren't earnest in your attempt to be a good Christian. 

It means you f'd up in your marriage. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## imtamnew (May 13, 2013)

If I cheated on my wife and she forgives me....I don't think I will be able to respect her.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

I've seen this Ted Talk before and I think it's a great look at infidelity from the eyes of a research psychologist. I'm always torn, emotionally, because I want to find a way to be at peace with what my wife did yet I also get angry because I just can't say "oh well - we're all imperfect" or that kind of crap. One thing I do know is that pretty much all what she says is true. My wife cheated for many of the reasons listed in her talk and I think many men would have forgiven her and accepted the whole thing. I cannot. I am too fragile, emotionally, to ever recover from her betrayal. Even after 30+ years there are times I look at her and see nothing but a disgusting s!ut.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Any talk that advises people to stay together after cheating is "misguided" to say it nicely. 

If you want to see what reconciliation looks like read these threads. This is what 99% of people are facing and what they can look forward too. Do they seem happy to you? And these are people working hard enough on it to post and ask people for help. 

At least with divorce there is the potential for a new happy life without the third party, "the affair" in your relationship.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Festivus said:


> And having an affair doesn't make you a bad Christian either. Just a flawed one, which as a believer, anyone should understand is everyone's lot in life.


You're right, it makes them a bad person. There are plenty of bad people who are Christians. In fact I would say you have a better chance of meeting bad people or at least people who were bad. The reason they are Christians if for redemption. Jesus came for the lost. 

However I wouldn't marry these types of people, Christian or not. Way to much of a risk.


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

drifter777 said:


> I've seen this Ted Talk before and I think it's a great look at infidelity from the eyes of a research psychologist. I'm always torn, emotionally, because I want to find a way to be at peace with what my wife did yet I also get angry because I just can't say "oh well - we're all imperfect" or that kind of crap. One thing I do know is that pretty much all what she says is true. My wife cheated for many of the reasons listed in her talk and I think many men would have forgiven her and accepted the whole thing. I cannot. I am too fragile, emotionally, to ever recover from her betrayal. Even after 30+ years there are times I look at her and see nothing but a disgusting s!ut.


Well, I forgave my wife, but like you, all I see is a disgusting slvt that will never be with me again. 

As someone else pointed out earlier, there are cheaters and non cheaters. I fall into the latter category, I've been tempted many times, once when I was very drunk and the girl tried to rape me but I protested because I had just met my wife and I am not a cheater, never will be, it's a choice, drunk or sober.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

drifter777 said:


> Even after 30+ years there are times I look at her and see nothing but a disgusting s!ut.


Dam brother, that's tough, that's such a long time. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

imtamnew said:


> If I cheated on my wife and she forgives me....I don't think I will be able to respect her.


Wow....there is some crazy stuff here on TAM


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

drifter777 said:


> I've seen this Ted Talk before and I think it's a great look at infidelity from the eyes of a research psychologist. I'm always torn, emotionally, because I want to find a way to be at peace with what my wife did yet I also get angry because I just can't say "oh well - we're all imperfect" or that kind of crap. One thing I do know is that pretty much all what she says is true. My wife cheated for many of the reasons listed in her talk and I think many men would have forgiven her and accepted the whole thing. I cannot.* I am too fragile, emotionally, to ever recover from her betrayal.* Even after 30+ years there are times I look at her and see nothing but a disgusting s!ut.


The bolded is honest, and that honesty makes me respect you.


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## imtamnew (May 13, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Wow....there is some crazy stuff here on TAM


What's crazy about wanting a wife who will not accept a lesser me.
If she can't make me want to be the best version of myself..... She is not the lady I want.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

imtamnew said:


> What's crazy about wanting a wife who will not accept a lesser me.
> If she can't make me want to be the best version of myself..... She is not the lady I want.


firstly, to each their own....but to "me" it just seems a little off to have less respect for someone thats willing to forgive you and give you a second chance and have compassion....


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

CantBelieveThis said:


> firstly, to each their own....but to "me" it just seems a little off to have less respect for someone thats willing to forgive you and give you a second chance and have compassion....


I think forgiveness and acceptance are two different things. I can forgive someone and by doing so, not do something to irritate them, hurt their feelings, harm them, or even want to harm them. 

I can accept that they are the best I can get and stay with them, which to me is self effacing. 

I think the difference in opinions between you two and me too, lies in our individual understanding of self respect.

A truly remorseful betrayer, whether married or divorced, will likely want to be held to a higher standard. That might make for a more tense relationship at times, but if truly desired, will increase the deep love and respect the partners have for each other. 

That leads to greater openness and honesty. Trust increases exponentially. Real and perceived safety and security within the relationship grows.


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## imtamnew (May 13, 2013)

Let me break down an affair.

I have to first of all, be on the lookout for a partner.
Then once I identify a woman, I will have to spend time in wooing her.
Once she reciprocates, I will have to figure out a way to communicate with her in a clandestine manner.
Meet her in private places taking special care that no-one sees me.
Finally when the opportunity comes up have sex with her.

Infidelity is not a momentary loss of love for the spouse.
Its a much bigger plan that cannot happen over a long enough time frame. So its not like I cheated on my wife for a 3 min game of coitus.
But decided that she was not worth anything over a much longer period of time.

How my wife can forgive me for all those days and moments of not loving her?
If she does forgive and accept it, it simply means that she either never loved me or has accepted being with someone who threw her away.

For the record, I have a very very sad sex life. But if that is the reason for infidelity then shame on me for not being strong enough to end the marriage and walking away.

A promise made (in this case fidelity) is a promise made.
If I don't keep it, then there is not worth to me.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

"How my wife can forgive me for all those days and moments of not loving her?
If she does forgive and accept it, it simply means that she either never loved me or has accepted being with someone who threw her away."

-------------------------------------------------------

Yep. She must not think she is worthy of a committed, faithful partner.

ef·face. [əˈfās]

VERB

1.erase (a mark) from a surface: 

"with time, the words are effaced by the frost and the rain" · 
[more]
synonyms: erase · eradicate · expunge · blot out · rub out · wipe out · 
[more]

*2.
(efface oneself) make oneself appear insignificant or inconspicuous*


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

I respecfully disagree with that, people are flawed, make poor decisions all the time not considering the impact to others, happens all the time. While I have never had an affair, I did commit selfish acts that didn't consider impact to others, and I was given a big break that am very thankful for. 
I do agree infidelity it's a beast on its own and very cruel act indeed, but remember anyone can betray you in different ways, your own kids, parents, etc....about the only act I believe is truly unacceptable ever is murder. 

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


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## imtamnew (May 13, 2013)

Cantbelievethis,

How much time do you think elapses between some one deciding they will cheat on their spouse and actually cheating on their spouse?

Will it take atleast a couple of days?
I am not talking about escorts.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

imtamnew said:


> How much time do you think elapses between some one deciding they will cheat on their spouse and actually cheating on their spouse?


It can take a few seconds or less.


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## imtamnew (May 13, 2013)

Personal said:


> It can take a few seconds or less.


You mean a guy tripped and fell. While falling miraculously got a erection, a girl appeared under him and a connection happened.

If not then the spouse put themselves in a situation that let it happen and I don't think it can happen without prior planning.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

imtamnew said:


> Cantbelievethis,
> 
> How much time do you think elapses between some one deciding they will cheat on their spouse and actually cheating on their spouse?
> 
> ...


Well in the case of my W I don't think she ever made a hard single point in time decision to cheat, she just kept going with the flow and when he kissed her she didn't stop it.... I guess you could say that's the instant when the cheating decision was executed and decided upon......


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> I don't know what is it lately seeing a lot of these type statements around here, but it's a bit annoying to some of those that decided to R... I mean you or anyone else are entitled to their opinion or what not, but not all of those that decided to R did so out of weakness....you can generalize at will but that's all it is, assumptions and stereotyping.


And I am allowed my POV on the issue. I think that people that stay after being cheated on are weak, simple. You don't agree and that is fine.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

MrsHolland said:


> And I am allowed my POV on the issue. I think that people that stay after being cheated on are weak, simple. You don't agree and that is fine.


Your opinion is just fine as I said, but assuming and attributing negative traits to someone you don't know at all or their circumstances is, well, in my opinion, an ignorant POV. There are likely several ways of stating that opinion in a less offending manner, that's all.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Esther Perel is a fraud. Check her credentials. They suck.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> And I am allowed my POV on the issue. I think that people that stay after being cheated on are weak, simple. You don't agree and that is fine.


Gotta agree. IMO, it is weak, doormat city.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

imtamnew said:


> Cantbelievethis,
> 
> How much time do you think elapses between some one deciding they will cheat on their spouse and actually cheating on their spouse?
> 
> ...


If they are looking at escorts you already have very big problems at that point how much time it takes is the least of your worries.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Well in the case of my W I don't think she ever made a hard single point in time decision to cheat, she just kept going with the flow and when he kissed her she didn't stop it.... I guess you could say that's the instant when the cheating decision was executed and decided upon......


You should really ponder this more. Sounds like justification or a way to not deal with the awful reality. She was not brainwashed. And if she was why would you stay with someone who could be lead around like a zombie, you are hardly emotionally safe with this person. If this is the case even more reason to run for the hills.


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## imtamnew (May 13, 2013)

sokillme said:


> If they are looking at escorts you already have very big problems at that point how much time it takes is the least of your worries.


That is my exact point. No one suddenly becomes a cheater.


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