# I think I broke our vows again. With a woman.



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

This is very, very hard for me to type out.

My husband and I were at a party. We'd both been invited to said party by a new friend from my writing class. Her name was Kay. Kay, I should mention, isn't the most attractive woman in the world. I had never felt any kind of attraction to her outside of this party. 

The party was a real rager. People were playing games, eating pizza, drinking heavily, smoking gods-know-what, doing drugs. I had had several drinks, too many to count, and I think I remember someone offering me a pill, but I don't remember whether I took it. I had never, ever done anything like this before, so Mr. Suaveterre, the designated driver, stayed near me to make sure I was going to be okay. He had paced himself and had only had three beers over the course of the night, so he was somewhere close to being in his right mind. I was not. 

As the evening drew to a close and people were starting to pass out on sofas, I found myself sitting on a plush couch, with Mr. Suaveterre to my left and Kay to my right. We were talking, I can't remember about what, and then I turned to Kay and said, "What's your sexual orientation?" She said she was bi. I said I was too. I said, "Have you ever kissed a woman?" She said she had. I said she was lucky, and I hadn't. The details are fuzzy, but I think I asked her if I could kiss her. She must have said yes, because then I turned to my husband and I asked if he'd let me kiss Kay. He replied in the affirmative, though I don't remember whether it was a hesitant yes or not. I asked him again, several times. "Are you sure? You're positive you're okay with this? You don't have to let me. We can talk about this when I'm sober. I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to hurt our marriage." He still said yes, so I leaned over and kissed Kay, passionately. It lasted a couple seconds, and then I felt Mr. Suaveterre get up and I broke the kiss. He was headed towards the bathroom, and called over his shoulder, "You girls have fun" or something like that.

Mr. Suaveterre no longer being present scared me. I said to Kay, "You're a good kisser, but I can't believe I just did that. What have I done?" and then burst into tears because I get very emotional when I'm drunk. Kay hugged me and shushed me and told me everything was fine and that I hadn't done anything wrong. I said, "We're never going to be able to look each other in the eyes in English class, are we?" She laughed. I said, "You do realize we're still only friends, right? The kiss didn't mean I have feelings for you." She said she knew

At around that time, my husband came back and sat beside me. Kay must have understood that we needed a moment, because suddenly she was gone. I held my husband and apologized and I said that wasn't worth it. He said "It's okay, it was an experience." and I told him I didn't feel good about it because until then he was the only person I had ever kissed romantically. I asked him to kiss me, "to get the taste of her off my lips" and he did. I said that it wasn't fair to him because if he ever kissed a guy, I'd be upset. He said it was a good thing he didn't want to kiss guys, then.

After that, I don't remember much. The next thing I can remember is sitting on the balcony back at my apartment, staring at the moon and drinking Pedialyte which Mr. S. got for me. Then I remember cuddling against a sleeping Mr. S. in the master bed. Then, I woke up in the spare bed.

It was the wildest night I've ever had and I don't know how to feel about it. Was this cheating?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Your husband said ok. So no, you did not break your vows.

Maybe you need to stop going to parties where people are passing out and you get so high that you do things that bother you later.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> Your husband said ok. So no, you did not break your vows.
> 
> Maybe you need to stop going to parties where people are passing out and you get so high that you do things that bother you later.


This was the first and last time I've ever done anything like that. I've gotten drunk at home and at bars, but never at a private house party with tons of other people and the opportunity for illicit activities.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Geez, adults actually do stupid **** like this to sabotage themselves?

I'd put it behind me and grow up a little.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Was this cheating?
> 
> if he ever kissed a guy, I'd be upset.


I think you have your answer. If he kissed a guy, would you consider it cheating ? How would it hurt you psychologically ?



EllaSuaveterre said:


> I don't know how to feel about it.


I think you should make good use of it. While it is hardly the crime of the century, it can serve you well as a "guidepost"... that you are capable of "falling" and especially when alcohol has reduced your inhibitions to this degree.... and take it as a "life lesson" which will help you in the future to avoid situations which continue to the point of emotional damage to your husband and your marriage.



EllaSuaveterre said:


> This was the first and last time I've ever done anything like that.


That is indeed excellent, and exactly the position I would want you to take if you were my daughter. Your wisdom is good.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> This was the first and last time I've ever done anything like that. I've gotten drunk at home and at bars, but never at a private house party with tons of other people and the opportunity for illicit activities.


I mean no disrespect here and I’m not trying to be unkind.
Do you not think you have had enough problems in your life without bringing more in?
I will be honest here and say if I was your husband I would have left you with your new crush and gone home.
Stop drinking,you can’t handle it.
Stop taking drugs,you do not have the mindset for them.
Stop treating your husband like this or one of these days he won’t be your husband anymore.
Get some better friends.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
No one can tell you if you broke your vow for only you can say how seriously and how deeply you vowed. We can offer a technical, text book definition of the vows but you alone can place your limits on them. To some a vow not to lie does not include "little white lies" while to others any lie is counts. So, no absolution here. And, for the record, asking permission from your H was not applicable since he did not vow for you, that was your vow to uphold or break as you deem prudent.

Perhaps he walked away because he did not want to witness it, I know I would have. As EleGirl said perhaps it is time to reevaluate your position regarding wild parties, drugs, alcohol and fidelity. You are walking very close to the edge of a dangerous precipice.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Ella stop beating yourself up, like the t-shirt says "it ain't cheating if your husband knows", in this case he knows and approved.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Lostinthought61 said:


> Ella stop beating yourself up, like the t-shirt says "it ain't cheating if your husband knows", in this case he knows and approved.


Let’s be honest here.The op was drunk and high,she may have asked her husband was he sure it was ok,she also may have kept haranguing him until he got up and walked away.She was drunk and didn’t know what she was doing.
It’s easier to apologize after the fact and blame drugs or alcohol but it doesn’t change anything.
I will be honest here and say any illicit drugs are a deal breaker for me.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

So, my husband just came out and hugged me. I tentatively asked him if he liked the party. He said yes, he very much did. I said I don't think I'll ever try anything like that ever again. He said, "And I'm not mad at you because you kissed a girl. Next time we go we should buy them a bottle of wine, since we (read: I) drank an entire bottle last night." 

He said he heard my crying last night at the party, but he couldn't come right away because he was in the bathroom. I said, "I thought you left because you were disgusted with me." He simply replied, "Mm." and I don't know whether that's indicative of confirmation or not.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

You broke your vows.

But hey, your husband doesn’t care!

:smthumbup:


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> Let’s be honest here.The op was drunk and high,she may have asked her husband was he sure it was ok,she also may have kept haranguing him until he got up and walked away.She was drunk and didn’t know what she was doing.
> It’s easier to apologize after the fact and blame drugs or alcohol but it doesn’t change anything.
> I will be honest here and say any illicit drugs are a deal breaker for me.


Yes... If he would have said no in any way at all I wouldn't have done it. If he hadn't been there right beside me I wouldn't have done it. That's why I broke the kiss when he got up. I didn't want to do ANYTHING he wasn't okay with, and I didn't want to do anything he wasn't aware of.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Some men like the idea of their wives with another woman. Especially if they get to watch.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Lostinthought61 said:


> Ella stop beating yourself up, like the t-shirt says "it ain't cheating if your husband knows", in this case he knows and approved.


Query, if he had disapproved would he then be controlling and overbearing, denying the basic rights of every individual?

OP, why did you tell your H you did not want to hurt him? Did you think your actions might? Would it not be better to err on the side of caution rather than damage your relationship? If my wife asked me if it was alright to have an open marriage I would answer in the affirmative and immediately proceed to divorce her. I do not wish to be in a relationship with someone that desires others, however me disallowing it does not take away the desire but rather imposes my will onto her. I do not wish to be in such an arrangement.

Perhaps your H felt likewise. Perhaps he felt it was not his place, but rather yours, to consider him and his feelings and act accordingly rather than having to be told what to do.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

NoChoice said:


> Query, if he had disapproved would he then be controlling and overbearing, denying the basic rights of every individual?
> 
> OP, why did you tell your H you did not want to hurt him? Did you think your actions might? Would it not be better to err on the side of caution rather than damage your relationship? If my wife asked me if it was alright to have an open marriage I would answer in the affirmative and immediately proceed to divorce her. I do not wish to be in a relationship with someone that desires others, however me disallowing it does not take away the desire but rather imposes my will onto her. I do not wish to be in such an arrangement.
> 
> Perhaps your H felt likewise. Perhaps he felt it was not his place, but rather yours, to consider him and his feelings and act accordingly rather than having to be told what to do.


I would have not done it if he had said no at any one of the times I asked. I wouldn't have thought he was controlling or denying me anything I deserved. I told him I didn't want to hurt him because I don't want to hurt him. I didn't want him to say yes just to placate me and then regret it later. I want him to be honest with me about what he's okay with and not okay with in our relationship, just like I want to be honest with him about what desires and needs I have. And vice versa. I want him to tell me what he wants, and I want to feel free to say no to those requests without feeling guilty or like he might defy me and cheat. To say you're okay with something when you aren't okay with it, I think, would be wrong. Because it's lying. And then to divorce someone because they did something they thought you were okay with _because you explicitly said you were okay with it_ is just unfair.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I kissed a woman in front of my husband before he and I were married and he greatly enjoyed it. But, my husband also has lesbian fantasies and he has told me that any contact with a woman - as long as he knows about it - he would not consider cheating. But I would be expected to tell him about it immediately and not hide it. My marriage is “open” in that sense. Of course, I think it is only that way because he hopes that I would being said woman home for a 3some even though he knows that he would not be allowed to do certain things. 

But I’m also not bi, he knows that I am only very slightly curious and that we talk about it more for the fantasy than the actual desire to DO it. 

If your husband said it’s ok, then I think it’s ok. He may have gotten up because he thought he would like it and didn’t. Or maybe because he liked it TOO much and didn’t want things to get awkward or cross a line he wasn’t comfortable crossing. At any rate, he’s telling you it’s ok, believe him.

But next time leave out the alcohol and drugs. They cloud your judgement.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Yes... If he would have said no in any way at all I wouldn't have done it. If he hadn't been there right beside me I wouldn't have done it. That's why I broke the kiss when he got up. I didn't want to do ANYTHING he wasn't okay with, and I didn't want to do anything he wasn't aware of.


Here's where your kidding yourself. You have no idea what you'd have done had he not been there. You started the conversation and got into the position without his "permission". Asking him didn't change the fact you wanted to and we're willing. Drunk or not doesn't excuse the fact you shouldn't have got in the position to start with. Just because we want to do things doesn't mean we should act, self control does need to come into play. We've all don't stupid things drunk and I wouldn't really consider this cheating but you your self control was definitely lacking and your husband shouldn't have been put in the position of asking whether it was OK or not.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I would have not done it if he had said no at any one of the times I asked. I wouldn't have thought he was controlling or denying me anything I deserved. I told him I didn't want to hurt him because I don't want to hurt him. I didn't want him to say yes just to placate me and then regret it later. I want him to be honest with me about what he's okay with and not okay with in our relationship, just like I want to be honest with him about what desires and needs I have. And vice versa. I want him to tell me what he wants, and I want to feel free to say no to those requests without feeling guilty or like he might defy me and cheat. To say you're okay with something when you aren't okay with it, I think, would be wrong. Because it's lying. And then to divorce someone because they did something they thought you were okay with _because you explicitly said you were okay with it_ is just unfair.


It would not be in any way a lie as having an open marriage is perfectly acceptable to some, her included if she asked to have one, just not to me. Query, would it be unfair for her to enter into a monogamous relationship, vows and all, and then ask for an open marriage? Or is "fairness" unidirectional?


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

You asked for permission. He knows you are attracted to women as well. He said "yes". But you both should talk about it, sober. Tell him how you feel, etc. Your H sounds supportive and cares for you.

One of my friends who is bisexual in a LTR with a man... She admitted to me that she had sex with another woman a year or so ago. I asked if her BF (they are a great couple together IMHO) knows about it. She said "yes. He is okay with me fooling around with other women. But its the first time since we've been together in 3+ years" - she has no guilt. He OKAYED it. She was honest with him.

If he had told her "NO" - she would never have done it. She is a very "strong" woman with good self control.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

honcho said:


> Here's where your kidding yourself. You have no idea what you'd have done had he not been there. You started the conversation and got into the position without his "permission". Asking him didn't change the fact you wanted to and we're willing.


Yes, you're right, I did start the conversation without his permission. And I did want to kiss her, and I was willing to take the chance. Maybe I shouldn't have been.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

"Started a conversation without his permission"? Really? Its not like you started talking to the woman and just took her hand into the bathroom and had sex with her.

In men's heads - when we see an attractive woman on the street or TV/Movie - etc. Think we're not thinking "Yeah - I'd hit that?" 
There is perhaps more than a few women a day I may pass by and think "she's hot - I'd hit that if I could" - but not think badly because I am with my wife. Hell, my wife says the same thing about attractive women too since she is bi too. She knows I look.  And we've had sex together with other women... a long long time ago.

Talk with your H. Let him know how you feel. And if at the end you still feel bad, tell him the next time you get that drunk and you ask, he says "no".


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

Reflect on the night. Sounds like one poor decision after another. Drinking more than you can remember? Unsure if you took an unknown pill from a random person? Surprised the rest of the night ended up the way it did?

Bad choices lead to bad outcomes. Make better choices.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

TaDor said:


> You asked for permission. He knows you are attracted to women as well. He said "yes". But you both should talk about it, sober. Tell him how you feel, etc. Your H sounds supportive and cares for you.
> 
> One of my friends who is bisexual in a LTR with a man... She admitted to me that she had sex with another woman a year or so ago. I asked if her BF (they are a great couple together IMHO) knows about it. She said "yes. He is okay with me fooling around with other women. But its the first time since we've been together in 3+ years" - she has no guilt. He OKAYED it. She was honest with him.
> 
> If he had told her "NO" - she would never have done it. She is a very "strong" woman with good self control.


Yes, I plan to bring it up over a nice hot bowl of pho tonight. I'll tell him that I still feel guilty because even though I am bisexual and have/had attractions to women, and want to act on those attractions, another part of me wants to be monogamous and only be attracted to him and only be with him. I can't have both things, so the deciding factor, the thing that breaks the tie between these two conflicting desires, is that I care about my husband's psychological well-being and don't ever want to hurt him. 

I've talked to other bi women about my bisexuality before, when I was sober. I've had other women over to my house while my husband was at work and we discussed being bi and it never led to any kind of flirting or physical contact. So, starting the conversation wasn't the bad thing. The bad thing, I suppose, was when I decided to ask Kay if I could kiss her.

Anyway, my inhibitions were lowered, those two conflicting desires had come up, and it was up to the third (the fact that I don't want to hurt my husband) to break the tie. Sober, I know I would not have risked hurting him by asking, in case even just letting my desires be known would have hurt him. But last night, I decided that asking him wouldn't hurt. And, I guess, given that he's still affectionate towards me today and said he didn't blame me, it didn't in the end.

I'm never doing it again, though. Even with his permission, the fact that I did something with someone else that had previously only been his right makes me feel too guilty. I didn't realize it consciously before that night, but having only ever kissed my husband was something I took a measure of pride in.


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## james5588 (Mar 22, 2017)

I see it a bit differently:

It's not an issue of permission or no permission. It sounds like the problem is that you are ambivalent about your boundaries and are subsequently relying on your husband to set them for you. In of itself this is okay; however, you are also asking him to this for you 1) in the heat of the moment AND 2) while drinking. This really muddles the whole thing. Hence, the uncertainty.

So you drank too much and did something you are unsure about. Most of us have been there. But the difference is that YOU need to decide for yourself how you feel about it. In the meantime, you are making your feelings contingent upon your husband's feelings and he (at least according to your account) is not being clear about it either.

Take care,

j


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

So Miss @EllaSuaveterre, I also consider myself bi-sexual but what that means to me, at 55 years old, is that I am attracted to both men and women...I see beautiful things about both genders and am able to love and feel feelings for both genders. I've been with both genders. But what I did, years ago, is that I decided to be with one person at a time, and be faithful to that one person. Just because I have the "ability" see attractiveness in both genders doesn't mean I have to PURSUE that attraction or act on it! 

Therefore, at a somewhat young age, I made a deliberate choice to look for men as sexual partners and life partners primarily just to not have to put up with all the B.S. that goes with being gay. Of course, this was back in the 80's and long before I was living a Christian life. I just made a choice of the two options. 

As I matured I learned that being married isn't "playing house" with someone; I was cheated on and got divorced; I remarried and I was the cheater; and I learned from all that. Now my definition of faithfulness is not "How much can I get away with and still be faithful?" but rather "What is the definition of living a faithful life so I can clearly understand it and stay as far away from it as possible?" 

My definition now is giving 100% of my affection, loyalty and companionship to the one person to whom it's due: my spouse. Giving 100% does not leave any room to give any to anyone else--including other people I may notice passing by who are attractive. I don't give passionate hugs, kisses, touches or any sexual energy to any other person other than to my spouse. I also have printed out my vows and have them on my headboard, and I remember something in there about "forsaking all others" so I consider that my promise. I CHOSE to make that promise, and I can CHOOSE to forsake all others too!

So I'm not clear what YOUR definition of fidelity would be. Since this seems to be bothering you, maybe it would be worth your while to figure that out and then live you life by your definition.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I suppose my definition of fidelity would be not keeping secrets about who I'm with, what I'm doing, where I am, what I say, etc. In other words, never doing anything that would make me want to lie about it later. If I want to do something I'm not certain my husband would be okay with, I get his opinion. If he says no I won't do it and I appreciate his honesty in telling me no. 

Once, when he needed thousands of dollars for a surgery, I asked him if he would be okay with me selling my dirty socks on Etsy. There are very few ways for a disabled woman with few skills to earn large sums of money, and because selling myself as an artist would take time, luck, and talent I doubt I have, selling socks seemed to me to be the most surefire way to get a few thousand dollars within a year. I think foot fetishes are gross, personally, but they do net people money. It somehow didn't seem as bad as selling my underwear or being a cam girl. Mr. S. said no way, that to him or would be too creepy and too intimate for me. So I didn't sell my socks to add to our income, and in hindsight I think I would have regretted doing it if he did give me permission. 

My current definition of fidelity doesn't seem to be doing my conscience much good, because there are circumstances I feel bad about even when my husband doesn't. I need to either get over my guilt complex or re-define fidelity.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I would have not done it if he had said no at any one of the times I asked. I wouldn't have thought he was controlling or denying me anything I deserved. I told him I didn't want to hurt him because I don't want to hurt him. I didn't want him to say yes just to placate me and then regret it later. I want him to be honest with me about what he's okay with and not okay with in our relationship, just like I want to be honest with him about what desires and needs I have. And vice versa. I want him to tell me what he wants, and I want to feel free to say no to those requests without feeling guilty or like he might defy me and cheat. To say you're okay with something when you aren't okay with it, I think, would be wrong. Because it's lying. And then to divorce someone because they did something they thought you were okay with _because you explicitly said you were okay with it_ is just unfair.


The problem with this is you asked when everyone was plastered. Truly, how much consent could there have been in his approval?

This can only be okay if it was thoroughly and soberly preapproved prior to the party.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

My husband wasn't plastered. He has a strong tolerance for alcohol and only had three beers in three hours.

And actually, if I had been sober, I wouldn't have even wanted to talk about it or to pre-approve anything, even if I knew he would have said yes. No part of Sober Ella has any desire to kiss Kay. I have even less desire to PLAN to kiss Kay. The embarrassment I feel at even imagining such a conversation taking place is immense.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I think my response, upon hearing of your request, would have been to look for the hottest woman in the room and say, "sure honey, kiss away. I'm heading over here. Is it ok for me to kiss HER?"

Yes ur husband is ok with it. He doesn't sound upset. No harm, no foul. 
But my personal opinion is that what you asked him was really, really wrong. It would have made me sick at my stomach. What you did, kissing another PERSON than me passionately (your description), was just wrong and totally against traditional vows (forsaking all others, keeping ourselves only for one another).
Did he really have a choice? The moment you asked him, you made it clear you not only found someone else than him physically attractive, but you were willing to act on it. He had no choice about your feelings toward this woman.

You should feel really bad about what you did. You do. Move forward and stop worrying about it. Stay clear of drugs and wild parties, or it sounds like you'll get in deeper trouble.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> My husband wasn't plastered. He has a strong tolerance for alcohol and only had three beers in three hours.
> 
> And actually, if I had been sober, I wouldn't have even wanted to talk about it or to pre-approve anything, even if I knew he would have said yes. No part of Sober Ella has any desire to kiss Kay. I have even less desire to PLAN to kiss Kay. The embarrassment I feel at even imagining such a conversation taking place is immense.


Well, if it's something you can't face sober, then it's really a problem. Anything you can't talk to your husband about when you're sober and not in the heat of the moment/laying on the pressure of time immediacy really has no place in a marriage.

Hopefully, no permanent harm done here.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Dagnabbit!

Where is that key?

I thought we wound you tight the last time we talked.

.................................................................................................

You know...

You know when I look at you I see two people.

The stronger one is methodical, a perfectionist. A Kind lady.
A Kind Lady, akin to a-Con that comes out when she gets sleepy. Maybe sloppy.

Con-carnal comes out of the Kinder one's secret Garden.
The garden is unkempt, hence avoided by the Kinder Lady.

You are aware of Consuellas presence. 
Of her lingering in the shadow...essence.

Her thoughts are intoxicating...
As are all Neptunian Spectresses..

She is not separate from you.
Nay, as you are two.

Now where is that key?
It winds the Kinder Lady..

Concurrently, unwinds the Mirror-maid that swims just below the surface.
The subterranean one who tickles your fancy

And tries her best to usurp the Kinder One.
To debauch her, lay her in ruins.

Speaking, talking and writing of this half....fills her image.
And takes away from the Kinder Lady, a spoon at a time.

Do not give into temptation. Shame on Mr. Suaveterre.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Ask him how he feels about a threesome -- or just watching you with another woman. Then you'll know where he draws the line -- in case there's a next time. If you don't want there to be a next time then don't drink or take pills since that makes you more impulsive.


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

You’re making a chicken out of a feather. He’s was good with it. Stop carrying on about it.


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Well, if it's something you can't face sober, then it's really a problem. Anything you can't talk to your husband about when you're sober and not in the heat of the moment/laying on the pressure of time immediacy really has no place in a marriage.
> 
> Hopefully, no permanent harm done here.


It's not just that it would have been embarrassing to plan. It's also that I honestly wouldn't have wanted to kiss her if I had been sober. But yes, it was very much a heat of the moment thing, and opening our marriage or allowing me or him or both to kiss other people (let alone date or sleep with them!) is a step I don't think either of us are ready for.

How, in light of having already kissed Kay, can I re-affirm my connection to my husband, and his to me, and bond with him? How can I move past my guilt with him at my side? How can I help him past any emotions he might be feeling? (Although he doesn't seem to be outwardly conflicted or shaken in any way)


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

You're the only one that appears worried about it. Spend an evening making it all about him and make love and be happy. Hold him close to you and tell him you're sorry whether it hurt him or not, and it won't happen again. Tell him it bothers you deeply and that you worry it hurt him.
Sounds like he's going to tell you to stop worrying. At which point, you should. If you continue making a thing about it,he may start thinking Kay is in your mind and you're feeling guilty about it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> This is very, very hard for me to type out.
> 
> My husband and I were at a party. We'd both been invited to said party by a new friend from my writing class. Her name was Kay. Kay, I should mention, isn't the most attractive woman in the world. I had never felt any kind of attraction to her outside of this party.
> 
> ...


Wow. Do you write novels? I would definitely buy them. (Probably for my wife).
----
Don't think it's cheating if your husband said ok. If you are looking for a term...maybe Reverse Cuckolding? "to get the taste of her off my lips"...Those are some juicy detail to remember while half conscious.
Wow. I think I know why he left the room. Did he head straight to the bathroom with a pack of tissues, past Stanley Kubrick?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> Stop taking drugs,you do not have the mindset for them.


Hehe, is there ever a _right_ mindset for taking drugs?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Very unwise to spend time with people who think that getting drunk and taking illegal drugs is 'fun'. Not sure what you expected, but to be kissing anyone on the lips who you are not married to is madness. You are playing with fire.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

.........can we see a picture of the other woman? Might influence my opinion.........


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Betrayedone said:


> .........can we see a picture of the other woman? Might influence my opinion.........


I know that comment is wholly inappropriate and not at all helpful, but I couldn't help like it just the same.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

honcho said:


> Here's where your kidding yourself. You have no idea what you'd have done had he not been there. You started the conversation and got into the position without his "permission". Asking him didn't change the fact you wanted to and we're willing. Drunk or not doesn't excuse the fact you shouldn't have got in the position to start with. Just because we want to do things doesn't mean we should act, self control does need to come into play. We've all don't stupid things drunk and I wouldn't really consider this cheating but you your self control was definitely lacking and your husband shouldn't have been put in the position of asking whether it was OK or not.


Unless she started the conversation because she knew he was there?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Unless she started the conversation because she knew he was there?


The details get a little blurry here for me, but I believe I asked her. I think I started it. 

And to whomever asked, yes, I am a writer.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

If I were at a party and drank too much, smoked things, took pills, and my husband let me kiss a girl, I'd wonder who I married. The man I married would not put up with all that. Is your husband priming you for a threesome?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> If I were at a party and drank too much, smoked things, took pills, and my husband let me kiss a girl, I'd wonder who I married. The man I married would not put up with all that. Is your husband priming you for a threesome?


With Kay?? Gods, I hope not.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> The details get a little blurry here for me, but I believe I asked her. I think I started it.
> 
> And to whomever asked, yes, I am a writer.


I knew it! Respect. (from someone who writes part-time :nerd

I wonder if your husband may be one of those men who would have found it impossible to say 'no, don't do it', especially in such a public/exposed situation (it's a pride thing). I am sure there must be a reason why you feel bad about it (not all self-imagined), even though your husband 'allowed' you to proceed with the kiss.

Incidentally, if you happen to have any dreams or second thoughts of how the encounter could have escalated/proceeded in a parallel universe, I wouldn't want to stop you from writing it down...
:smthumbup:


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> With Kay?? Gods, I hope not.


Not with Kay. However, he may be testing the waters, since now he knows you are willing.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Sigh... I think you are overthinking this a bit since you did ask his permission first. But, with that being said, I think this highlights perfectly the reason why many people won't date or marry a bisexual. There's just too many temptations and a need to "experience" what they are missing. I read about bisexuals arguing that they are monogamous, but it often doesn't work out that way. I'm certainly not arguing that ALL of them are non-monogamous, but it seems many have this need to experience both sides and it often ruins relationships.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> Sigh... I think you are overthinking this a bit since you did ask his permission first. But, with that being said, I think this highlights perfectly the reason why many people won't date or marry a bisexual. There's just too many temptations and a need to "experience" what they are missing. I read about bisexuals arguing that they are monogamous, but it often doesn't work out that way. I'm certainly not arguing that ALL of them are non-monogamous, but it seems many have this need to experience both sides and it often ruins relationships.


What happened with me was that I discovered I was bi a year after I got married, so there was never an experience with women for me.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Just read the original post and...

Someone handed you a pill and , just like that, you swallowed it?

What?


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Another thing that I thought I'd mention for the sake of it is how remarkably well-adjusted my BH is to all of it. If it wasn't for the fact that I don't believe reconciliation is ever a finished work, I'd call us reconciled. He told me a couple weeks ago that he has forgiven me, that he trusts me completely, and that the idea of another A happening was ludicrous to him! I'm sure you know how rare that is!! I mean, it's astonishing!! I am well and fully prepared to have to help my BH periodically through triggers and other unpleasantness for the rest of our lives, but he hasn't really seemed to need the help, at all.
> 
> Of course I shower him with love and such whether he "needs it" or not because he's my love and as such he always "needs it", but he doesn't seem to need anything specific relating to reconciliation from the A.


I was not familiar with your story so I went back and looked at some of your other threads. This is a quote from one of those. It would seem that your H has not fully dealt with his hurt nor his deepest feelings. Another affair is "ludicrous" to him? And his reaction is indeed rare, in fact as rare as unicorns. More probable is that he "rugswept" your A. And then you ask permission to kiss another? And you believe that he is okay with that because he did not say no?

I believe that there are a few possibilities to this scenario. It could be that your H is indeed rare in that he loves you unconditionally and will accept whatever pain and suffering you dish out to him. Or he could actually care for you or not care for you all that much but is so overwhelming codependent that he simply cannot leave you. It is also possible that he has stuffed the pain of the A deep down into his psyche where it erodes his well-being.

Whatever the case, your concern for him seems to be questionable. If you really want to show this man how much you care then I would advise you refrain from drug and alcohol use, decide to abandon any "bi" tendencies you may have and settle in your mind, once and for all, that he is the person, singularly, that you dedicate yourself to healing, promoting and supporting through the remainder of this life.

Do not ask his permission to break a vow you took in good faith but rather show empathy for his feelings and consider your actions carefully. Take ownership of your choices and do not rely on him to set your boundaries. Do away with the double standard way in which you think. If him kissing another man (or woman I assume) would anger you greatly then extend to him the same consideration. In short, begin to realize his importance and minimize your own by caring more for him than you do yourself. It seems he is already caring for you in that way so does he not deserve the same from you? If not you, then from someone else that will?

You seem to want to try but you need to try harder.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> What happened with me was that I discovered I was bi a year after I got married, so there was never an experience with women for me.


How does one go about discovering it? :scratchhead:

The curiosity will only grow with time if that is the case. Does your husband know? Maybe you should have a talk with him about this as this might be an issue down the road...

Part of me wants to high-five your husband for some reason though.


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Hehe, is there ever a _right_ mindset for taking drugs?


Or a wrongset? 😬


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> EllaSuaveterre said:
> 
> 
> > What happened with me was that I discovered I was bi a year after I got married, so there was never an experience with women for me.
> ...


Yes, I've told my husband I thought I was bi. He said that was okay, since we could both ogle girls guilt-free now.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

What is he going to say? Would he tell you no? You left him for a year and he took you back no questions asked. I wouldn't particularly call him assertive. Then he is put in a position where another women is coming on to his wife right in front of him and she turns and asks for permission.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NoChoice said:


> I was not familiar with your story so I went back and looked at some of your other threads. This is a quote from one of those. It would seem that your H has not fully dealt with his hurt nor his deepest feelings. Another affair is "ludicrous" to him? And his reaction is indeed rare, in fact as rare as unicorns. More probable is that he "rugswept" your A. And then you ask permission to kiss another? And you believe that he is okay with that because he did not say no?


I don't know. To me, the original original affair story read less like an affair (from memory) and more like sexual abuse and violation of trust (by a priest?). Of course we all have choices, NoChoice , but still.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I think you are walking a very fine line and being irresponsible tbh. You have enough issues in your marriage without adding to the mix.

Your H may give tacit approval because he loves you and wants you to be happy, but may not be too thrilled by your 'experimenting' regardless of whether you are 'bi.' 
To me it is very disrespectful of your H and your marriage and although you may have been very drunk/high, it is exactly this kind of behavior that gets people into trouble. You say you would be upset if he did it to you so what makes you think it is ok for you to do this to him? Selfish right? The starting hallmarks of a cheater me thinks, That is why boundaries are so so important in a marriage.

Expect some fall out from this.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

sokillme said:


> What is he going to say? Would he tell you no? You left him for a year and he took you back no questions asked. I wouldn't particularly call him assertive. Then he is put in a position where another women is coming on to his wife right in front of him and she turns and asks for permission.


When you put it like that, it sounds really bad!


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

aine said:


> Expect some fall out from this.


If not in the near future, in the distant future. He will not forget it.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Not sure if anyone has asked this. Would you have asked to kiss a guy? Why did you think that it would be OK to kiss a girl, being that you are also attracted to women? Something in your mind made you think he would say "yes" to a girl. Do you think he would have said "yes" to your kissing a guy?

The more I think about it, I believe he got up and left because he is upset, and he didn't want to show it in public. He didn't want to show it in private to you either. He is rug sweeping. That will cause him a lot of pain in the long run. Then you will feel more pain.

Why do you have such poor boundaries? What measures can you take to shore them up? Those are the questions that might save your marriage.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> What is he going to say? Would he tell you no? You left him for a year and he took you back no questions asked. I wouldn't particularly call him assertive. Then he is put in a position where another women is coming on to his wife right in front of him and she turns and asks for permission.


I didn't leave him for a year. You're thinking of someone else


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

aine said:


> When you put it like that, it sounds really bad!


It's not really bad?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I didn't leave him for a year. You're thinking of someone else


6 months? You were about to get on the plane right? The cult guy seduced you and you almost left to go with him but your family stopped you. It wasn't your commitment to your husband that stopped you. You didn't talk to you husband for months because you were in the hospital right? Then you were separated for about a year if I remember, or it was a year before you realized what you did to him at least to some extent though you have continually maintained that you were taken advantage of. I don't doubt that there was a point that you were taken advantage of, however..

What I have always said to you and what is consistent in all these stories is you don't have real strong boundaries as you seem to always get into situations where by the time you think about his feelings it's too late. How did it ever get this far, first with the cult guy and now with this women. Are you your husbands wife or not? If so why do you always seem to be getting into these situations where boundaries are questioned and things go so far? What's the deal with this women? What if she asks you if you ever had sex with a women are you going to ask your husband if he is cool with that too? Are you capable of having an open relationship? Your experience with the cult guy tells me you need strong boundaries not weak ones at least if you want to stay married to your husband. 

Sorry Ella I don't think this is good. I don't think he is going to tell you what he thinks. I think deep down you know what he thinks and why he left the room. I also don't think this so call friend of yours just out of the blue asked to kiss you. And I certainly don't think your husband is assertive enough to handle a situation like that. In my mind if you are writing a post asking if you are cheating you are cheating. 

But you could say I am a hard judge if it makes you feel better. I can't imagine anyone I am with having the nerve to be in the position to kiss someone else at a party no matter how much drinking. How does it even get there. Let alone ask me to kiss someone. My response would be me first.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> What happened with me was that I discovered I was bi a year after I got married, so there was never an experience with women for me.


Surely, you didn't just developed these feelings overnight and wake up one morning bisexual. I'm assuming it was more of an "acknowledgement" than a discovery? Again, I'm certainly not knocking bisexuals at all. My daughter is bisexual and I'm perfectly fine with that. But, the human mind is prone to dwell on the things we don't have but that we WANT. That's why so many people are stuck with this stigma that bisexuals can't be truly happy with either sex. 

The reality is that although you are in love with your husband, you WANTED to experience kissing this other woman. You were drunk/high and went after what you wanted, even going so far as to seek it out by asking her what her orientation was and asking her for a kiss.

Now your sober self feels bad about it. Believe me, I have had a few of those "why did I do that!" mornings after a drunken night, but in all instances it was simply the alcohol reducing my inhabition. I was in control at a all times. I tend to think that perhaps your husband just simply isn't assertive enough, or he doesn't realize that this COULD be a very bad sign.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@sokillme THe timeline is this:

In August 2014, I met OM

Around September is when he began to flirt with me. Once, I reciprocated, and he used it to blackmail me into getting on a plane with him and going to live with him. I didn't want to do that, but didn't have the courage to tell him to leave.

On October 7th of 2014, I believe, he said he had bought me a plane ticket and instructed me to get in his friend's car that Sunday. I was so wracked with anxiety that I didn't eat or sleep, and could barely drink anything.

On October 10th, my mother came over to pick me up for school and said I looked like I was on drugs. She refused to let me leave the house until I told her what happened. So I told her everything. She took me to the mental hospital. I stayed there for a week.

During that week, my husband had his D-day when I confessed everything and let him read my diary. I asked him to forgive me. He said he didn't know if he could. 

The day after I returned home from the hospital, I told OM I was going NC. I entered intensive outpatient therapy from mid-October to late November, and during that time, at some point, he said he forgave me. My husband and I were never separated at any point except for the week I was in the hospital as an inpatient. We never broke up.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> @sokillme THe timeline is this:
> 
> In August 2014, I met OM
> 
> ...


You must have been very young when this happened?...We are unable to make rational decisions before a certain age (which is higher, and for some people significantly higher than the legal age limit).

Can I ask how much older your husband is than yourself now?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I married him at 18. He was 28. We are now 24 and 34. I was 21 when the A happened.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I have been micro-analyzing his reactions and expressions all day for any hints of pain or disgust or anger. He has been affectionate with me as much as usual. He still looks at me affectionately. He still stops to kiss me in public.

A few minutes ago, we had a talk. I asked him if we could chat about last night and he said yes. I said, "I feel really guilty about kissing Kay, and I am concerned you might be harboring some feelings about it. I know I would never have even wanted to kiss her sober. You know, you could have said no, right? I wouldn't have been upset with you at all if you said no."

"I know I could have said no," he replied, "But I didn't. It was okay with me."

"So why did you leave?"

"Well, I didn't know you were going to be so... into it. When you started making noises, I thought I should just leave and let you two get on with it."

"So... when you walked away, can you please try to describe for me, in terms of emotions, what was going through your head? Were you angry, hurt, disgusted?"

"No, it wasn't that. I wasn't walking away in disgust. It was just all a bit too much for me, so I just wanted to let you get on with it while I was in the bathroom."

"I see. Well, I'm sorry I did it. It was 'too much' for me, too. That's why I broke the kiss and started crying when you walked away. I didn't want anything to do with any of it if it was going to drive you away. I really feel bad about what I've done, and I don't ever want to hurt you."

"I'm not hurt. It's fine. You can tell Kay on Monday that I was fine with it; I'm sure you two will talk about it."

"I dunno. I can't imagine talking to her right now, but I'm sure you're right and we'll have some things to process, too."

I'm glad he still shows he loves me with his hugs and kisses. I'm glad he hasn't been more withdrawn or silent than usual. I'm glad his involuntary body language, such as his eyes when he looks at me, still show affection and happiness. Still, I think you lot are right that this was a bad thing, and I need to fix it somehow. The fact that he used the words "too much" tell me that. I don't know what he was feeling "too much" of; I don't even think he quite knows. I'm afraid for us.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I married him at 18. He was 28. We are now 24 and 34. I was 21 when the A happened.


Too young. I know this will be the unpopular view but still. Much too young.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

The conversation, continued:

I came over to him just now and kissed his hands and he smiled at me. I said:

"I want you to know that I'll never kiss a girl again-- with or without your permission."

He sort of chuckled and said, "Why? You don't like girls now?"

"I do like girls. I just don't like girls as much as I like being faithful to you, and being 100% confident that nothing I'm doing is hurting you. I regret having kissed Kay, and I'm sorry. I really wish you'd tell me what you meant in that you felt it was too much."

He seemed agitated or annoyed when he replied, "I don't know. Just don't worry about it. You're overthinking it."

So I left him to his business. This was not a good thing...


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> "Well, I didn't know you were going to be so... into it. When you started making noises, I thought I should just leave and let you two get on with it."
> 
> "No, it wasn't that. I wasn't walking away in disgust. It was just all a bit too much for me, so I just wanted to let you get on with it while I was in the bathroom."
> 
> "I'm not hurt. It's fine. You can tell Kay on Monday that I was fine with it; I'm sure you two will talk about it."


Ella, are you OK with your husband being OK about you passionately kissing a person besides him? He left so you could get on with it??? Did he masturbate in the bathroom to the mental images of you kissing another person...in particular a girl?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> @sokillme THe timeline is this:
> 
> In August 2014, I met OM
> 
> ...


What was in your diary?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> The conversation, continued:
> 
> I came over to him just now and kissed his hands and he smiled at me. I said:
> 
> ...


I think it is pretty obvious he doesn't dialog his feelings. He isn't going to tell you no. It's not in his nature. So you need to be more careful.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> Ella, are you OK with your husband being OK about you passionately kissing a person besides him? He left so you could get on with it??? Did he masturbate in the bathroom to the mental images of you kissing another person...in particular a girl?


Yes, I am okay with it, but something tells me he isn't. I don't know what. Just something. I would be fine if he masturbated, but I don't know if he did or not. I'm too embarrassed to ask him about something like that.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Yes, I am okay with it, but something tells me he isn't. I don't know what. Just something. I would be fine if he masturbated, but I don't know if he did or not. I'm too embarrassed to ask him about something like that.


Don't ask him that and at this point your creating this into something much bigger than it needs to be. You keep seeking his validation about this and it's not his approval or validation you need right now. You need to micromanage yourself, not him. You need to figure out why you wanted to do it, why you did it and how you will maintain self control and not have this happen in the future or put him in this position to start with.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

My wife just invited girls to join us in bed. No sneaking around and she knew I would not object. My wife has had sex with a woman a few thousand times in the last 45 years, mostly because her steady girlfriend lived with us for much of that time. Threesomes were our normal sex. My wife always refused to have sex with women without me. If I left the bedroom when she was with a girl, she would stop what she was doing and wait for me to return. She said that sex with women without me felt like cheating. I am not stupid so I did not prey further or ask many questions.

I do not know if I would be OK with my wife having sex with women without me. I never viewed a woman as a threat because we each had different equipment. My wife never wanted another man which was confirmed after our first and only wife swap. In fact, she never dated a woman or wanted romance with one. She just wanted them for sex and companionship. Kind of weird but while we lived it, it was our normal life and the only one we knew as adults.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

The only pertinent question is......who’s the better kisser....your hubby or Kay? By the “sounds” of it, I’m going with Kay.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

By "too much", I think he thought you were gonna give her some gentle, relatively quick sugar, not make out for 5 minutes and give her a tonsillectomy. 

Let it go. He did after he cried privately in the bathroom.

I'm still working needing why you took a pill and didn't know what it was. Like someone pointed out, damn poor decision making the whole night.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Tobyboy said:


> The only pertinent question is......who’s the better kisser....your hubby or Kay? By the “sounds” of it, I’m going with Kay.


I don't know. Kay was different. Not better, just different. Different in a bad way, in that only Mr. S's kisses make me feel warm and cozy inside.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Evinrude58 said:


> Let it go. He did after he cried privately in the bathroom.


That breaks my heart. :crying:


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

I will tell you why your husband walked away.

He knew you are Bi. He knew you liked girls. He said yes when you asked him time and again because he did not want to seem inconsiderate and controlling. He thought you really wanted to kiss Kay so he said yes.

When he saw that you were really passionate and seemed to be enjoying (making noises - moaning with pleasure?) kissing Kay he could not stay and watch that. He most likely felt some emotion that he did not like or expect. But he had given his permission and could not say "OK. That's enough". So he got up and walked away to process what he was feeling. Most likely he wanted to say "Enough" but that would have been breaking his word to you in his mind. He loves you and wants you to be happy so he said yes to your request but he was not prepared for how he felt when he saw you so passionate with another person. He is still processing what he felt and does not want to make you feel guilty about what happened. He does not know how to explain it to you yet.

One question - when you kiss your husband passionately, do you moan or make sounds to let him know you like it? If you do, I would say that he said yes to your request and meant it. But if he heard you making the same sounds with her that you make when kissing him, that probably hurt him in a way he did not expect so he left you with her.

So you did not break your vows again, but I am afraid you hurt your husband even though that was not your intention.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

TDSC60 said:


> I will tell you why your husband walked away.
> 
> He knew you are Bi. He knew you liked girls. He said yes when you asked him time and again because he did not want to seem inconsiderate and controlling. He thought you really wanted to kiss Kay so he said yes.
> 
> ...


I often moan when I kiss him, yes. I don't recall doing so when I was kissing Kay, but he was far more sober than I so I'll believe his memory over mine. I wanted to kiss him immediately after he came back because I (too?) thought the kiss had weakened our bond and I wanted to undo it somehow. I'm afraid I hurt him too. How do I make it right?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

@EllaSuaveterre in my book what you did was OK. You asked your husband, he said OK. It wasn't unreasonable to ask, lots of men are OK with, and even find it exciting for their partners to kiss other women. If he had said no, but you did it anyway, it would have been different. 

Since what happened bothers you, you should be careful in the future not to get waste so you don't have anything else to regret.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I often moan when I kiss him, yes. I don't recall doing so when I was kissing Kay, but he was far more sober than I so I'll believe his memory over mine. I wanted to kiss him immediately after he came back because I (too?) thought the kiss had weakened our bond and I wanted to undo it somehow. I'm afraid I hurt him too. *How do I make it right?*


I think you already have. You told him that you are sorry you did it and it will not happen again with or without his permission. That he is and will continue to be your #1 priority.

Tell him you are sorry about the whole incident and that your questions about what it would feel like to kiss a girl have been answered once and for all. Then let it drop and don't press him for any more details about how he felt. He is not angry, but your husband could not sit by and see you so passionately kissing another person. That is what he meant by "too much". 

You have handled the aftermath well so far. Now don't make him remember the overwhelming emotions again, by insisting that he explain how he felt to you. He does not know how to do that at this time.

Relationships are tested from time to time, I think you and your husband will survive this and be a better couple for it. You seem to be committed to each other which is a rare thing today.


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## satphil (Feb 13, 2017)

FWIW, I think the fact that when he returned you were no longer in action with Kay will have done a lot to put his mind at ease. Proceed with caution.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Next time talk about these things ahead of time. Don't spring it on him right before it happens and ask if you can do it. Like some kid at the toy store. Not a good way to go about opening up your marriage. Especially after you have already had issues with that in the past. I am curious what this relationship with this women is? Sounds like she wants to be more then just friends with you. Or she sees someone with poor boundaries that she can seduce. Was you husband even a part of the discussion or did she just ask if she could kiss you no regard to you husband at all? Talk about power plays. 

This is harsh but it needs to be said, you consistently have trouble with infidelity and empathy from the BS's side. Next time you should ask yourself how would you feel if it was your husband doing it, before you even ask. Say he wanted to kiss some guy that he had developed a relationship with at work. You were sitting there having fun at a party and the guys asks have you ever kissed a guy and he turns to you and says, is it OK if I kiss this guy? Then he gets real into it while doing it. Yeah it's pretty much the same. 

Honestly though, you know. You knew before you posted this. It's why you posted. You knew he was upset when he walked away it's why you tried to kiss him right away. You knew it put him in a bad spot but the drugs and desire got the best of you. It happens. You also didn't need him to tell you he was upset, you knew. Of course you knew he is your husband. Even if he doesn't say it, you can tell. Do I think you cheated on your husband, No not really. Do I think you hurt him again, yeah probably. The poor guy has been put through quite a lot if you really think about it.

By the way your timeline is the most sanitized version of your marital trouble that you have ever described on here. If I remember correctly you thought you were in love with the other guy or he was High Priest or something and only after about a year of some hard reflection did you understand it was abuse. I remember when you were first posting a lot of your questions were trying to understand all this. You also were not so sure about your husband after it happened too. It took you a few months to even understand that you betrayed him. One of our repeated post going back and forth on here were about you exposing yourself to this guy in the first place. My point was always the fact that you opened yourself up to him was where you betrayed you husband. This is the kind of thing I was warning you about. The way to stay faithful is to not put yourself in position to be tempted to not be faithful. If you are bisexual you shouldn't be kissing girls if you intend to remain monogamous with your husband. What good can come of that?

I am pretty disappointed in you changing your story like that. Your not 17 anymore Ella, you have been reading these boards as long as I have. You know how this stuff works.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I am pretty disappointed in you changing your story like that. Your not 17 anymore Ella, you have been reading these boards as long as I have. You know how this stuff works.


What on Earth are you talking about? I didn't sanitize anything, I just left out the information that you already knew. I didn't mention that it took me several months to realize what happened was abuse, and that I didn't understand it was infidelity for a year after that, and I didn't mention anything about his personality or his religion or the nature of his abuse, because I didn't feel it was pertinent to this conversation. 

You seemed to believe from what you said earlier that I left my husband to live with OM for either 6 months or a year. That didn't happen at all, so I retold you the timeline from the time I met OM to the time I stopped speaking with him. The amount of time it lasted and the amount of time I was apart from my husband were the only things you seemed to get wrong, so they were the only things I mentioned.

Nothing about the chronology-- or anything else-- of that timeline is at all untrue. It's not sanitized, just edited for brevity.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

@EllaSuaveterre : As long as you are happy to not do it again, then that is fine for you. Your husband seems to support you either way. And if he was to ever pressure you into doing something with a woman - that would be an issue.

As a matter of previous experinces with bi-sexual women - I've dated, know of many, friends, strangers, married to one. I've run into many who said "I hate that my BF/husband won't let me kiss/sex with another woman" - those that have expressed that to me, didn't cheat (AFAIK) or at least at that time. It is common to be bi-sexual and monogamous. 

I also know some bi-women have the okay to have sex with women or threesomes with their husbands permission. In the old-days (pre-affair) I was okay with my wife doing so. Had a few 3somes. But yeah, I gave her a "yes" to go full blown sex on a sexy young woman. I told the other woman's husband that it would just be them - not us guys. He was cool with that. Took pics too, which are on my wife's phone.

We haven't done 3somes or other such things since we started R. But I know friends who still do.

Whatever you two do. Be honest. And it has to be something you both agree with.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I married him at 18. He was 28. We are now 24 and 34. I was 21 when the A happened.


Ella, I hope you don't take offense from this post, and if you do, I apologize because it is honestly not meant to offend. 

I think a lot of posters here forget your age. Although your gift of communicating is that of a much older, well-educated, and mature woman, your brain hasn't finished maturing yet, to be frank.

I remember being your age, and I remember every one of my peers at that age. They all did exploratory things that were not quite in their true nature at some point in their 20s, whether married or not. In my own way, so did I, at 25. For many of them, it was a necessary part of their maturing process. It might have hurt (someone), liberated them in some way, or just helped them to decide what they did /didn't want. After all, you married young. 

Many posters here forget your "maturity" when it comes to adult boundaries and your past. I see you as having the naivete of a woman younger than you currently are, in certain ways when it regards certain calls of judgement. It's not good, not bad, and it's not taking a dig at you.

It just is. And I think it's part of a belated maturity you were bound to experience. 

To others' points, there will be fallout, whether you detect it in Mr S's demeanor or not. The greatest will come from the makings of your own mind.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Yes, I am okay with it, but something tells me he isn't. I don't know what. Just something. I would be fine if he masturbated, but I don't know if he did or not. I'm too embarrassed to ask him about something like that.




When he says not to overthink it, maybe he means it. Going all Freud on him about it and pressing the issue may be putting him in an uncomfortable spot (once again). There are two roads you can take from here: forget about it and move on (and stick to your word to never do it again), or work towards a way to see if you can incorporate your....tendencies in a way where you can live them out but your husband feels that he is in control.
To be fair, if I believed in Buddhism and ever could choose what TAM character I wanted to be reincarnated into for my next life, it would without question be Vinnydee. Unless he's fooling himself and his wife is using him as an accessory and his stories are a narrative he tells himself to come to terms that his bisexual/lesbian wife who is not so much into him but I somehow very much doubt it. He seems too down to earth about it all. Sorry for the diversion.

I somehow feel you either have not presented this opportunity correctly to your husband (maybe you should have involved him more, making sure he is the one in control of the situation) or that your husband will always be threatened by these...inclinations of yours. In which case take road no 1.
Some men do seem to invite trouble when they commit to a certain type of woman, sigh. On the other hand he might see a distinct potential in you to grow up, mature and become a responsible adult. We all go through experimental stages (I didn't, so much) and since he's quite a bit older than you, I wonder if the dynamic of your relationship is different, as in, that he also might have some father-like, protectionist instincts towards you, to keep you safe and out of trouble.
Sorry, all a bit of a ramble. 
It's basically up to you what happens from here onwards. You are obviously a highly intelligent person and have sharp instincts.
You could always say that this performance of yours was solely to his benefit. Which I'm sure is partly true.
In case you do take the second road, don't forget to write about it here. My desk is short on good quality erotica 
Good luck


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## growing_weary (Jul 23, 2017)

=\

What else could he say in the moment since he seems to cater to you? If drinking too much and other recreational items are a problem for you then don't go past your point of no return. 

You were suspicious when he was buying things for your anniversary yet this is ok? I don't know how your husband feels, but if it was me, it would be yet another betrayal but I'd be trying to explain away the pain by minimizing the impact. 

Also, how can you be too embarrassed to ask you husband about masturbation? Who else, but his wife (maybe close buds I dunno what guys talk about together) could?


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I have been micro-analyzing his reactions and expressions all day for any hints of pain or disgust or anger. He has been affectionate with me as much as usual. He still looks at me affectionately. He still stops to kiss me in public.
> 
> A few minutes ago, we had a talk. I asked him if we could chat about last night and he said yes. I said, "I feel really guilty about kissing Kay, and I am concerned you might be harboring some feelings about it. I know I would never have even wanted to kiss her sober. You know, you could have said no, right? I wouldn't have been upset with you at all if you said no."
> 
> ...


OP, do you notice the words angry and hurt are conspicuously absent from his response? He was not disgusted.

All of this sounds avoidant, is your H generally non-confrontational? If so, he may very well have said yes to you kissing a man. Also take note that he fully expects you and Kay to "discuss" this later, without him which, again, he is "okay" with?

"Too much", I believe, signifies his displeasure without condemning your actions, vaguely indicating objection without specifically objecting, as non-confrontational people often do. "It's fine" is a classic response. And, he knows full well how he feels, he just doesn't want you to know.




EllaSuaveterre said:


> The conversation, continued:
> 
> I came over to him just now and kissed his hands and he smiled at me. I said:
> 
> ...


Allow me to offer a possible interpretation to this: "I do not wish to have a confrontation over this so please lift up the edge of the rug and sweep this under it".



EllaSuaveterre said:


> Yes, I am okay with it, but something tells me he isn't. I don't know what. Just something. I would be fine if he masturbated, but I don't know if he did or not. I'm too embarrassed to ask him about something like that.


Perhaps it is your "gut" telling you he is not fine. Furthermore, you are too embarrassed to ask him if he pleasured himself in the bathroom while you were pleasuring yourself on the sofa, in public, with him sitting next to you? Would he have been embarrassed by that? And, for the record, if he was as overwhelmed as I believe him to have been an erection would have been impossible and orgasm the farthest thing from his mind.



EllaSuaveterre said:


> That breaks my heart. :crying:


Enough so to reevaluate your perception of who is most important in the marriage? If he did indeed cry imagine his heart.



EllaSuaveterre said:


> I often moan when I kiss him, yes. I don't recall doing so when I was kissing Kay, but he was far more sober than I so I'll believe his memory over mine. I wanted to kiss him immediately after he came back because I (too?) thought the kiss had weakened our bond and I wanted to undo it somehow. I'm afraid I hurt him too. How do I make it right?


I write on these boards in an effort to help people and ofttimes it is necessary to point out unpleasant things in order to address them and move on. You have placed yourself ahead of your H in this marriage. Some of it can be attributed to youthful indiscretion but at some point you must mature and begin to see things from a different point of view. You must learn to place your H's needs first and yours second and, if he does likewise, your marriage will be solid and impenetrable. Currently, with your mindset, it is weak and vulnerable. You must decide which you prefer and work diligently to accomplish that goal.

Also, your H appears to be highly non-confrontational so you must not "depend" on him to set YOUR boundaries. Generally speaking, what hurts you hurts him so think of things in that way and imagine how you would feel. For whatever reason he seems unwilling or unable to deny you anything so you can either cherish that and use it wisely or you can leverage it and use it to get what you want, disregarding the damage it may cause him. In other words, you can be thoughtful and considerate with it or you can be selfish. Thus far selfishness has won out, how you continue is up to you.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Evinrude58 said:


> Let it go. He did after he cried privately in the bathroom.


LOL. I highly doubt it. If he hasn't stored that vision in his spank bank yet, he will soon.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

For being so drunk, you certainly remember how everything went down pretty well. 

You know, self-absorption is so unattractive and self-indulgent. Maybe you can get a dog or a cat or a bird or some fish or a terrarium to help you get your mind off of yourself once in a while.

I don't know how your husband stands it.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> What on Earth are you talking about? I didn't sanitize anything, I just left out the information that you already knew. I didn't mention that it took me several months to realize what happened was abuse, and that I didn't understand it was infidelity for a year after that, and I didn't mention anything about his personality or his religion or the nature of his abuse, because I didn't feel it was pertinent to this conversation.
> 
> You seemed to believe from what you said earlier that I left my husband to live with OM for either 6 months or a year. That didn't happen at all, so I retold you the timeline from the time I met OM to the time I stopped speaking with him. The amount of time it lasted and the amount of time I was apart from my husband were the only things you seemed to get wrong, so they were the only things I mentioned.
> 
> Nothing about the chronology-- or anything else-- of that timeline is at all untrue. It's not sanitized, just edited for brevity.


Ella you are coming across as a self deluding drama queen and I honestly believe you are subconsciously trying to push your husband away.
Forget about all the theories expounded on this thread,you are going to drive your husband away and only then will you realize what you have lost.The whole world does not revolve around you and you alone.You come on tam telling everyone how much you love your husband and then a few weeks later you rub his nose in **** by making out with another woman.
If he had asked you could he kiss Kay what would you have said and most importantly what would you have thought.
Your husband will only take so much and then he will leave without looking back.Will you finally wise up then?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

We're going to the autumn festival today. I'm trying to walk the line between affirming our relationship too little and love-bombing. I'm trying to be cognizant of what he might need from me today, and trying to do all the right things. As we stepped outside, he said, "It's a nice day." I replied, "Yes it is, and I'm glad I get to spend it with you." 

He looked at me in a way that made my heart melt, so I kissed him. Hard, passionately, with touches and caresses and a surplus of moaning. When we broke the kiss after several minutes, I breathed his name and leaned against him. I want him to replace her in his memory. I need him to know that I want him more. That even when I'm sober, he does more and better things to my body and soul than she ever could. 

"My Kit," I sighed. 

"And my Ella," he replied. He was grinning. I was too, I think. 

So far, so good. Today, I'm going to try to keep all my focus on him without overwhelming him with it. I hope I don't cry today, in a quiet moment.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

It sounds like you're writing a romance novel for The Box Car Kids.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I don't mind 


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Maybe I missed it, but if you haven't, I think you should apologize. Obviously this has caused you a lot of consternation and confusion. Apologize, forgive yourself, and let it go. Move forward. Never do it again. Do not look back.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> It sounds like you're writing a romance novel for The Box Car Kids.


That was meant as a criticism, I know, but I've never quite understood how one could construe comparing my life and/or my writing voice to a romance novel as a bad thing.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There's more to life than romance, hard as it may be to believe.

Try to focus on the "whole life" approach rather than individual events.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

We've sampled all kinds of local autumnal honeys, sauces, and jams. We saw a king sized bed made entirely from polished, petrified logs of locally grown trees. I said to Mr. S, "I might like to play The And on that bed. And then do other things. If you know what I mean." He agreed enthusiastically. I asked him, "So you mean you might still like to play The And with me?" He agreed with no hesitation. He is still okay having intimate conversations with me, at least under the condition of safety that our game provides. A very, very good thing indeed.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> We've sampled all kinds of local autumnal honeys, sauces, and jams. We saw a king sized bed made entirely from polished, petrified logs of locally grown trees. I said to Mr. S, "I might like to play The And on that bed. And then do other things. If you know what I mean." He agreed enthusiastically. I asked him, "So you mean you might still like to play The And with me?" He agreed with no hesitation. He is still okay having intimate conversations with me, at least under the condition of safety that our game provides. A very, very good thing indeed.


Was there any rugs?
For sweeping things under.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I agree with your H.

I believe you over think and maybe are making a bigger deal out of it than it is.

If Mrs. C was straight with me like you were with your H, I would have let her have a little girl play as long as it didn't get out of hand.

If she kept on about it like you were with your H, I would probably get annoyed as well.

Not that big of a deal. Be at peace.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> That was meant as a criticism, I know, but I've never quite understood how one could construe comparing my life and/or my writing voice to a romance novel as a bad thing.




Nothing bad about it. I would rather you spend the time writing about your turmoils if it means it might keep you away from lesbianisms which may hurt your husband's feelings IRL.



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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Ella, maybe you just have a man who enjoys seeing you happy. Maybe your man doesnt care about the fact that you are bi. 

He may even be like me. He may absolutely love seeing you express yourself. He may just love seeing you so excited that you are willing to do something crazy. 

Maybe he just loves seeing your joy?


EllaSuaveterre, pm either myself or username akinaura(my wife) if you want to know more about how we have dealt with pretty much the same issue.


Methinks you worry too much...


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> Was there any rugs?
> For sweeping things under.


I am trying VERY VERY HARD not to let him rugsweep. We had a bit more of the conversation a few minutes ago. He looked at me with that romantic look and told me he loved me. I asked him why he loved me and after a few sweet non-answers about how cute I am, he finally said, "I guess because of the way you make me feel. You make me feel happy and loved."

I replied, "That's good. I want to always make you feel happy and loved. I know I make mistakes sometimes, and when I do, it hurts me almost as much as it hurts you. I hate making you feel pain." 

He said, "I think a lot of your mistakes are just a learning process. Maybe I don't want to talk about them because I learn and move on faster than you do." 

"So, what did you learn from Friday night?"

He began to look nervous. He said, "I don't know-- I mean, I could probably talk for two hours about the pros and cons, whys and hows, rights and wrongs of that night. But I don't want to make a big deal out of it when it isn't. I don't want to make it an issue."

I said, "Well, maybe I am the kind of person that needs to talk about it for two hours, because once we get it all sorted in our hearts, it will go away. And it won't come back later when we least expect it."

And there the conversation was cut off because it was our turn to ride the ferris wheel. 

Other than these bits of conversation, it's been a normal day, with lots of public cuddles and kisses, some chatting, some laughing, lots of sightseeing, etc.

It's very hard to figure out, for us, where and when to stop the conversation. I don't want to hurt him more, but I don't want him to suppress and internalize anything, either. And everyone on TAM has a different opinion on how much or how little talking is appropriate or safe. So I have to decide on my own. 
More later...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

""I said, "Well, maybe I am the kind of person that needs to talk about it for two hours, because once we get it all sorted in our hearts, it will go away. And it won't come back later when we least expect it."""

That's not how it usually works, especially if you spend the next few months playing mind movies in the back of your head.

To put it behind you, you need to chalk it up to experience and never bring it up again. Game over.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> 6 months? You were about to get on the plane right? The cult guy seduced you and you almost left to go with him but your family stopped you. It wasn't your commitment to your husband that stopped you. You didn't talk to you husband for months because you were in the hospital right? Then you were separated for about a year if I remember, or it was a year before you realized what you did to him at least to some extent though you have continually maintained that you were taken advantage of. I don't doubt that there was a point that you were taken advantage of, however..
> 
> What I have always said to you and what is consistent in all these stories is you don't have real strong boundaries as you seem to always get into situations where by the time you think about his feelings it's too late. How did it ever get this far, first with the cult guy and now with this women. Are you your husbands wife or not? If so why do you always seem to be getting into these situations where boundaries are questioned and things go so far? What's the deal with this women? What if she asks you if you ever had sex with a women are you going to ask your husband if he is cool with that too? Are you capable of having an open relationship? Your experience with the cult guy tells me you need strong boundaries not weak ones at least if you want to stay married to your husband.
> 
> ...




I agree with this. 
Also you don't need to experience certain things to know you shouldn't do them. You can't use everything as an excuse and act like you didn't know because you never did that before. Your very smart and you know this.... getting drunk and knowing your bisexual and asking another girl if she is bisexual probably isn't very smart and you know that.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Isn't it true that you and your husband don't often have sex?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

It doesn't seem like you love your husband. I think your unhappy and selfish and need attention. I think you do bad things to your husband, and then twist it around somehow to make your husband reassure you more. It's actually a very messed up thing. Like somehow no matter what you do, it all turns around to him reassuring YOU. You cheat on him twice and he doesn't care and your the victim and you get reassured. It's so weird. 
I feel really bad for your husband.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I am trying VERY VERY HARD not to let him rugsweep. We had a bit more of the conversation a few minutes ago. He looked at me with that romantic look and told me he loved me. I asked him why he loved me and after a few sweet non-answers about how cute I am, he finally said, "I guess because of the way you make me feel. You make me feel happy and loved."
> 
> I replied, "That's good. I want to always make you feel happy and loved. I know I make mistakes sometimes, and when I do, it hurts me almost as much as it hurts you. I hate making you feel pain."
> 
> ...


I am reminded of a post were the husband cheated on the wife and then was desperate to get the wife to go to MC with him. Her response is "why do I need counseling I didn't cheat?" The bigger danger of rug sweeping here is you not your husband. For the second time now your poor boundaries have led you do some sort of trouble in your marriage. Stop worrying about your husband and start taking steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. 

It's pretty clear that you really don't empathize with BS but you constantly do with WS. You post as and for WS, this makes me think you really have a hard time with how actions affect others. Very often you are quick to defend the WS and show a kind of disregard or understanding with how the BS is suffering. There is definitely a disconnect there. Maybe because you are a WS, not sure but it's there. Maybe you are one of those people who has to go through something to really identify with it. Thing is you are not a kid anymore, you have read on here for at least a year. There is no longer any excuses, you should at least mentally know better even if you don't emotionally. So if you are not getting it emotionally then you need to be even more careful. This is why you need to learn better boundaries right now, if you want to stay with you husband you can't keep hurting him like this. You don't seem to have the same kind of instincts that someone who was more intuited to how their actions are affecting others. Since you don't have instincts you need to set up goto behaviors so that no matter what you can be safe. You need to stop working on him and star putting the focus on yourself.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

So, we finally had the talk.

After the festival, Mr. Suaveterre and I were both dead tired, hot, sunburned, and achy. My feet were on fire. I suggested I make us both a hot bath with herbs and epsom salts, and a Virgin Mary. He said he'd love the bath, but passed on the mocktail. I drew our bath, and made myself said mocktail. It was too spicy and I nearly choked on it, which conveniently gave me an opening. 

I said, "That tasted like pain! And, erm, speaking of things that tasted like pain... well... I have something very important I need to ask you, and I don't want you to jump the gun and answer too soon. I don't even want to know your answer today. I'd rather know on Tuesday when we play The And. You see, there's a certain set of protocol that one is supposed to follow when one had risked betraying one's partner. The first of these is 'no contact' and the 'no-contact letter,' in which I send a letter to people who may threaten our marriage stating that I am no longer going to associate with them. If you think I shouldn't have communication with Kay anymore-- which is a perfectly reasonable response, by the way--"

Here he cut me off. "You can talk to her, of course."

"But I want you to think about it for a while yet."

"You can talk to her. I told you that on Friday, and I still hold to it. I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to. What a ridiculous notion."

I was taken aback. "Uhh... okay? Well then, that's that conversation sorted."

He nodded. I continued, "All I want is for you to know that I regret having kissed her Friday night, and don't want to do it again because I'm afraid it hurt you. If it has hurt you, it is my duty, honor, and privilege to ensure I do everything I can think of-- and everything _you_ can think of-- to make it as close to right as possible."

He said that he wasn't so much hurt as just confronted by the whole situation. I agreed, and said it seemed to bring up unexpected and startling feelings for us both. He said, yes, it did. He admitted that he might feel worse about it had I not been upset over it and shrugged it off after the fact, and that he was sort of relieved I idn't want to continue without him there. I said that of course I was upset, for I realized about 5 seconds too late what the ramifications of my actions were, and once he left, my fear of abandonment kicked into gear and I realized that I hurt him and thus could risk losing him. 

He said it was all alright. He agreed to it, and he didn't HAVE to agree to it, and he couldn't very well be upset with me in any way for something he had okayed. He said he didn't consider it cheating at all since it was consented to by all parties.

I said there's no way I would have ever kissed her sober. He said he supposed there are just some things in life that one _can't_ experience sober. 

He then told me that one thing he learned from that night is that while I do like girls, I love him more, and this reassured him. I said, "Of course I do!" I love him as much as I can possibly love someone. Though, as others have touched on, the extent of my capacity to love may be debatable. My therapist seems to think I am a very compassionate person, and I'm sure I've told her everything I blog about.

He then said something that totally gobsmacked me. He said I _needed_ to talk to Kay to ask her how _she_ was feeling about all this. I almost said, "Oh, she'll be fine," but I realized that until that second I honestly hadn't thought about Kay's feelings once. I was far more concerned with Mr. S, with me, and with our relationship.

We bathed each other, and kissed, and cuddled, and I asked him for the final time if he was sure he was okay. He said he was. I feel reassured by this at last.

Meanwhile, for my part, I'm going to try to get into my usual IC as soon as possible next week, for I have much to go over.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> For being so drunk, you certainly remember how everything went down pretty well.
> 
> You know, self-absorption is so unattractive and self-indulgent. Maybe you can get a dog or a cat or a bird or some fish or a terrarium to help you get your mind off of yourself once in a while.
> 
> I don't know how your husband stands it.


Kaboooom!

The blonde lady lays the 'Frail Waif" flat on her back.
And that was just from the wind.

The wind of that fast moving hammer.
Rushing forward at MACH One.

The hammer hit not a fragile bone.
Nor the alabaster, translucent skin of this troubled lass.

It did crash to the floor. Splintering the oak planks.
And awoke the Red Queen. 

Run, @Blondilocks....run.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> It doesn't seem like you love your husband. I think your unhappy and selfish and need attention. I think you do bad things to your husband, and then twist it around somehow to make your husband reassure you more. It's actually a very messed up thing. Like somehow no matter what you do, it all turns around to him reassuring YOU. You cheat on him twice and he doesn't care and your the victim and you get reassured. It's so weird.
> I feel really bad for your husband.


I thought about this for a while looking for a grain of truth in it, like I do with all things that people say that upset me, and while I'm not going to completely discount the idea that this could be happening subconsciously, this is certainly not what happened in this scenario overtly. There was not a conscious thought process where I thought at any point before, during, or after the kiss, "I want sympathy. I will do something to get sympathy." 

Furthermore, when I was drunk I really don't think I had the presence of mind to have even subconscious thoughts of that nature. Generally with alcohol my personality becomes a very basic and primal version of itself, and deception or manipulation is a little too complex and multifaceted for my intoxicated brain to orchestrate, or even desire. 

I discovered, in my thinking, that this comment hurt me because sometimes I do seek sympathy, but usually not from my husband. In fact when I tell him about bad things I'm feeling, I tend to do so in a very clinical way that completely skips over any embellishment or drama, because I don't generally wish to seek sympathy from him in the same way that I might seek it from my friends. (I have a few long-time online friends to whom I go when I need to melodramatically vent and be comforted.) I don't use any poetic language when I talk about things that upset me to my husband. 

It upsets me to think that somehow, in spite of being very deliberate about NOT seeking for my husband to comfort me, that that could still be going on and still be hurting him. I genuinely don't think that this is a very strong possibility even on a subconscious level because I tend to be more self-aware than I let on about my sympathy seeking, and I deliberately try to avoid scenarios such as you mention above, but for sake of thoroughness, I suppose I will go over it in therapy next week.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

If my wife had a generally good sex life, I would have no problem at all with her fooling around a little with another woman. It would actually be rather arousing. I might hope to be invited do join...... but in general I'd be fine with it. Not all men are bothered at all by this.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Ella, do you and your husband have sex often and would you say you have a good sex life?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Was your first bi-kiss right? Looks like your husband was on board with it as well. I wouldn't call this infidelity, you did it right in front of him and with his permission. 

:scratchhead: Don't see a problem... nothing was betrayed.

Quite frankly I would be rather annoyed if I was him however. He told you it's fine, you're throwing it in his face all the time now. Keep pursuing it and it may get a whole lot more complicated. Why are you pursuing it? Are you secretly curious and entertaining thoughts of further consented extramarital sex? That would be what I'd be suspecting at this point.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> Let’s be honest here.The op was drunk and high,she may have asked her husband was he sure it was ok,she also may have kept haranguing him until he got up and walked away.She was drunk and didn’t know what she was doing.
> It’s easier to apologize after the fact and blame drugs or alcohol but it doesn’t change anything.
> I will be honest here and say any illicit drugs are a deal breaker for me.


I agree Andy. Besides, I disagree with some of the others, it is still cheating, just accepted by the husband. Both of these two seem to have few boundaries


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

The reason why I'm asking about your sex life is because if I recall you said it was practically non existent. And I find it interesting because you don't have a traditional marriage. I mean you have your own bedroom with pink girly child things in it... and then you had one affair and you just passionately kissed a women. I don't blame your husband for walking off because it seems he can't please you sexually or you guys don't have a sexual relationship and you find that in other people. 
From the outside looking in it seems your with your husband for security but there is not a passionate Sex life between you two which makes the marriage dynamic strange. And it seems your bored and looking for excitement and passion elsewhere and I think that's why you find yourself getting into these types of situations.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Ella, do you and your husband have sex often and would you say you have a good sex life?


No, we don't. We both have medical issues that physically prevent us from enjoying sex with a partner. We had a talk about it last week, before the kiss, and we agreed that since this has been an ongoing problem, we're both going to faithfully try holistic remedies for it until December, and if we're not both cured, we will look into more drastic medical options such as surgery (for him) and medication (for me). 

We agreed not to look into more invasive measures until December because he's already undergoing medical issues with sleep apnea and I don't want his body or our bank accounts to be too stressed all at once. 

While we're not satisfied with our sex lives, we also don't believe it's a huge issue for us. We were both virgins before we were married, and therefore don't have a whole lot of sexual experience at all and don't know what we're missing. I really only enjoy sex as a concept, and the only reason I suggested we fix it is because I am attracted to him and I like the _thought_ of us having an active sex life. Personally, I have only had one orgasm in my life, and it was with him when we were engaged. Neither of us really feel physically deprived, as far as I am aware, because of our sex life, and in talks I've had with him in years previous, while we're both upset about our lack of a sex life, we're not devastated, and would not consider it a marriage-ending issue.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Your a 24 year old beautiful women, of course a non sex life is a problem.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Some of your more recent posts on this thread have given me a little more to consider regarding what your husband was feeling and what he is dealing with.

Your husband obviously was clinging to the thoughts that he was the only one to give you physical pleasure and it was something special only shared between the two of you. His permission for you to kiss the girl aside, he was blindsided by the moans of pleasure you were making when kissing Kay. He did not expect you to be so energetic in your kissing her. That is why he left. It was too much for him to sit there and witness.

He is now facing the fact that, not only did you desire physical pleasure with another person (cloaked in the "I've never kissed a girl" excuse), you really seemed to be into making out with Kay and you were enjoying the experience. 

I am afraid you opened his eyes to the fact that what he thought was special and only between the two of you is something you can (and did) get elsewhere. Then you showed him that he is not that special to you by really getting into the makeout session with Kay complete with moans of pleasure.

I don't know how he will deal with this. No matter what he says, it is an internal conflict that he has to resolve. You have tried to show him that you consider your relationship special since the incident but he is internalizing the conflicting feelings caused by what he saw. He is thinking that alcohol brings out the hidden desires in you and despite what you are telling him now, the real you is just below the surface. He is thinking that he is the one keeping you from what you really want deep inside. You even verbalized it "If I had not been drunk, I never would have done it". IOW - Alcohol gave me the courage to pursue what I really want and need.

He will never admit it to you, but I would be thinking that if I truly loved her, I am being selfish by keeping her from what she really wants. I should let her go. Don't expect a deep, thought provoking discussion on this subject anytime soon. I have no doubt these thoughts have crossed his mind. I cannot predict what actions he will take, if any. But I do think he considers this to be something he has to resolve alone.


You have a complicated marriage. I wish the all the luck in the world.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

TDSC60 said:


> Some of your more recent posts on this thread have given me a little more to consider regarding what your husband was feeling and what he is dealing with.
> 
> Your husband obviously was clinging to the thoughts that he was the only one to give you physical pleasure and it was something special only shared between the two of you. His permission for you to kiss the girl aside, he was blindsided by the moans of pleasure you were making when kissing Kay. He did not expect you to be so energetic in your kissing her. That is why he left. It was too much for him to sit there and witness.
> 
> ...


If he is thinking any of this, I NEED him to tell me. It is paramount to my physical, emotional, and psychological safety that I know exactly how he's feeling and to what extent. If I have to, I will probably corner him into telling me and risk whatever comes of that. I will likely show him this thread. Why in the name of God wouldn't he tell me his thoughts?!!


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## fisher boy (Oct 9, 2017)

You stated to the other woman that you were bi. 
Have you been suppressing these feeling throughout your marriage and did your husband know about your bisexual interests before you got married?
Marriage should be a very long term honest relationship. Are you hoping that your husband becomes complacent and accepts the fact that you will be having bi relationships outside of the marriage or to have him participate. If not, how are you planning on suppressing these urges for the long term. This could lead to be a very unfulfilled life for both of you that will cause resentment within the relationship.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> If he is thinking any of this, I NEED him to tell me. It is paramount to my physical, emotional, and psychological safety that I know exactly how he's feeling and to what extent. If I have to, I will probably corner him into telling me and risk whatever comes of that. I will likely show him this thread. Why in the name of God wouldn't he tell me his thoughts?!!




A lot of people don't share their feelings. A lot of people don't even understand their feelings.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> A lot of people don't share their feelings. A lot of people don't even understand their feelings.


A lot of modern men are afraid to be called controlling.


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## growing_weary (Jul 23, 2017)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> If he is thinking any of this, I NEED him to tell me. It is paramount to my physical, emotional, and psychological safety that I know exactly how he's feeling and to what extent. If I have to, I will probably corner him into telling me and risk whatever comes of that. I will likely show him this thread. Why in the name of God wouldn't he tell me his thoughts?!!


And what is paramount to his? Have you considered that too? Repeatedly questioning (cornering?) him to get a safe feeling in your gut when he appears to want to drop it may not be the best course of action. Perhaps he needs time to process. Perhaps he really wants to drop it. Putting your need to know above his requests to not think too much about it is... something.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I don't think your husband is that deep. I don't think he is so introspective. (This is no reflection on him it's just who he is in my mind). Personally I think he probably felt pressured, said yes thinking in the end it wouldn't be a big deal but seeing his wife kissing someone else, and seeing her enjoying it probably hurt him, maybe it even surprised him that he felt pain and jealousy, however you recovered pretty well. I think he is telling you the truth he probably looks back on the other night with some discomfort and unease but he isn't devastated and it doesn't change the nature of your relationship. Your husband is who he is, he doesn't do deep contemplation. Take him at his word. 

However I will emphasize this again. The real issue is your kind of immature thinking and the fact that you have a propensity to put yourself in positions where inappropriate things happen. Things that damage both of you. Make no mistake if you want to have a good marriage, doing sexual things with others, things that cause you doubt is not going to be conducive for a long healthy marriage. Here is the deal and something that I am not sure why people don't understand. Having physical intimacy with someone you are attracted to is fun. Even if you are happily married. It's exciting, it makes you feel good about yourself. But most of all it's NOT a good thing to do if you want to have a happy monogamous marriage. You don't want to do things that cause doubt. You want to avoid situations that will do damage to your marriage. Even if it doesn't damage your husband directly, if it causes doubt in you it damages your marriage and that damages your husband. You need to protect your marriage. You need to be mindful about not doing actions that hurt the sanctity of your marriage. Kissing someone who is not your spouse for most people it's going to be good for your marriage. Curiosity or not. Assuming fidelity is a part of what you want your marriage to be. 

Now some people, maybe even you think that if you are in love you should never have doubts, you shouldn't ever be attracted physically or even emotionally to others. But your brain and body have evolved to enjoy sexual attention basically to help propagate the species, so that is human nature. You need to protect against your nature, and protect your husbands heart. Again I can't impress upon you enough, YOU need to work on this. It take continual thoughtfulness. Get your mind on what is he thinking and more on what was I thinking.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

fisher boy said:


> You stated to the other woman that you were bi.
> Have you been suppressing these feeling throughout your marriage and did your husband know about your bisexual interests before you got married?
> Marriage should be a very long term honest relationship. Are you hoping that your husband becomes complacent and accepts the fact that you will be having bi relationships outside of the marriage or to have him participate. If not, how are you planning on suppressing these urges for the long term. This could lead to be a very unfulfilled life for both of you that will cause resentment within the relationship.


Married people suppress urges all the time. They still have urges for people who are of the opposite sex. Why is it any different if it's the same sex? I never got this thinking. It's like since it is a the same sex there is no way you can not act on it.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> If he is thinking any of this, I NEED him to tell me. It is paramount to my physical, emotional, and psychological safety that I know exactly how he's feeling and to what extent. If I have to, I will probably corner him into telling me and risk whatever comes of that. I will likely show him this thread. *Why in the name of God wouldn't he tell me his thoughts?*!!


He likely doesn't trust himself or his own judgement at this point. He got blindsided by his visceral reaction to something he agreed to.

To echo what some others have said, if my wife asked me for permission to interact with another person as you did, the simple act of her asking would likely do irreparable damage to our relationship.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

growing_weary said:


> EllaSuaveterre said:
> 
> 
> > If he is thinking any of this, I NEED him to tell me. It is paramount to my physical, emotional, and psychological safety that I know exactly how he's feeling and to what extent. If I have to, I will probably corner him into telling me and risk whatever comes of that. I will likely show him this thread. Why in the name of God wouldn't he tell me his thoughts?!!
> ...


You may have a point, but at the same time, if there was ever a blanket statement it was safe to make it's that secrets are bad for relationships. Wouldn't it be better for us both to be hurt and resentful of each other _on the surface_ and know about it where we can theoretically fix it, than to be hurt and resentful and both in denial about it?!!

Another thing I've recently thought of is perhaps, if he does indeed believe that alcohol unlocks my innermost thoughts, and it may well do, I could get wasted again and tell him then, when he might be subconsciously more inclined to believe me, how absolutely bloody terrified I am of the consequences of my actions!!! I am afraid that he harbors resentment and fear and pain that he doesn't know about. I am afraid that this will make him love me less. The girl wasn't worth it! NOTHING is worth the loss of my security!!! I notice, even though I am frantic with fear, my subconscious mind is preventing me from thinking about how much I love my husband. My focus is on my security, not my affection or admiration for him. When I am afraid to lose someone I cannot feel love for them because it would hurt too much. I know that if he does divorce me I won't be able to think about the good things-- like the inside jokes we have and the songs we sing to each other and the dates we go on every year-- I will be able to grieve for any of that stuff for several weeks or months because it would just hurt too bloody much.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> You may have a point, but at the same time, if there was ever a blanket statement it was safe to make it's that secrets are bad for relationships. Wouldn't it be better for us both to be hurt and resentful of each other _on the surface_ and know about it where we can theoretically fix it, than to be hurt and resentful and both in denial about it?!!
> 
> Another thing I've recently thought of is perhaps, if he does indeed believe that alcohol unlocks my innermost thoughts, and it may well do, I could get wasted again and tell him then, when he might be subconsciously more inclined to believe me, how absolutely bloody terrified I am of the consequences of my actions!!! I am afraid that he harbors resentment and fear and pain that he doesn't know about. I am afraid that this will make him love me less. The girl wasn't worth it! NOTHING is worth the loss of my security!!! I notice, even though I am frantic with fear, my subconscious mind is preventing me from thinking about how much I love my husband. My focus is on my security, not my affection or admiration for him. When I am afraid to lose someone I cannot feel love for them because it would hurt too much. I know that if he does divorce me I won't be able to think about the good things-- like the inside jokes we have and the songs we sing to each other and the dates we go on every year-- I will be able to grieve for any of that stuff for several weeks or months because it would just hurt too bloody much.




Now your just spiraling and over reacting. It's done and over with you need to drop it. You can't do something stupid then obsess over it and drive him crazy pushing him into a conversation he doesn't want to have. Your exhausting. He's over it. And no amount of talking about it changes it, it just makes YOU feel better and no offense you have a pattern of doing bad things then needing comfort and making it all about you, when in fact he was the wronged party. 
Stop putting yourself in stupid situations, you know better than that. Drop this, he is done with it, stop pushing him. Let him be him. If he wants to talk about it he will, if he doesn't he won't. Stop bringing up conversations he doesn't want to have. And again he is over it, why aren't you?


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> If he is thinking any of this, I NEED him to tell me. It is paramount to my physical, emotional, and psychological safety that I know exactly how he's feeling and to what extent. If I have to, I will probably corner him into telling me and risk whatever comes of that. I will likely show him this thread. Why in the name of God wouldn't he tell me his thoughts?!!


Maybe try to consider his needs and feelings at this moment. 

Honestly, most of the posts that I have read by you betray a high level of self-absorption. hardly a foundation for a sound relationship.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> You may have a point, but at the same time, if there was ever a blanket statement it was safe to make it's that secrets are bad for relationships. Wouldn't it be better for us both to be hurt and resentful of each other _on the surface_ and know about it where we can theoretically fix it, than to be hurt and resentful and both in denial about it?!!
> 
> Another thing I've recently thought of is perhaps, if he does indeed believe that alcohol unlocks my innermost thoughts, and it may well do, I could get wasted again and tell him then, when he might be subconsciously more inclined to believe me, how absolutely bloody terrified I am of the consequences of my actions!!! I am afraid that he harbors resentment and fear and pain that he doesn't know about. I am afraid that this will make him love me less. The girl wasn't worth it! NOTHING is worth the loss of my security!!! I notice, even though I am frantic with fear, my subconscious mind is preventing me from thinking about how much I love my husband. My focus is on my security, not my affection or admiration for him. When I am afraid to lose someone I cannot feel love for them because it would hurt too much. I know that if he does divorce me I won't be able to think about the good things-- like the inside jokes we have and the songs we sing to each other and the dates we go on every year-- I will be able to grieve for any of that stuff for several weeks or months because it would just hurt too bloody much.


You should work on this fear you have of loss (not that it's not normal, but right now you are being a little over the top). Love coming from a point of fear is not as strong as love coming from a point of confidence. Love coming from fear is reactive, love coming as a gift with no fear or expectation of response is proactive and much better. Everyone should strive to love someone as a gift. 

Ella, even if the worst were to happen you would be alright. But you are way far away from that. Take a deep breath. 

Why don't you just believe him? In your experience has there ever been a time when he told you how he was feeling and you came to find out it was something totally different? I don't remember you ever posting anything like that. Nah to me your husband is a straight shooter. He always has been, actually it is to your great fortune that he is this way as with your uncertainty you need someone who is solid and not as emotional. I think you have no reason doubt him or his word. 

I also think if you spend all this time worrying about him and not working your you you will have once again missed an opportunity and will probably repeat the same patterns. This is not about your husband.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> You may have a point, but at the same time, if there was ever a blanket statement it was safe to make it's that secrets are bad for relationships. Wouldn't it be better for us both to be hurt and resentful of each other _on the surface_ and know about it where we can theoretically fix it, than to be hurt and resentful and both in denial about it?!!
> 
> Another thing I've recently thought of is perhaps, if he does indeed believe that alcohol unlocks my innermost thoughts, and it may well do, I could get wasted again and tell him then, when he might be subconsciously more inclined to believe me, how absolutely bloody terrified I am of the consequences of my actions!!! I am afraid that he harbors resentment and fear and pain that he doesn't know about. I am afraid that this will make him love me less. The girl wasn't worth it! NOTHING is worth the loss of my security!!! I notice, even though I am frantic with fear, my subconscious mind is preventing me from thinking about how much I love my husband. My focus is on my security, not my affection or admiration for him. When I am afraid to lose someone I cannot feel love for them because it would hurt too much. I know that if he does divorce me I won't be able to think about the good things-- like the inside jokes we have and the songs we sing to each other and the dates we go on every year-- I will be able to grieve for any of that stuff for several weeks or months because it would just hurt too bloody much.


If you love your husband so much why do you do things that are eventually going to drive him away.You seem to have a self destructive personality.
Do you have an inner fear that your husband is going to reject you,that you don’t deserve him and he could do much better.You engage in behavior likely to alienate your husband and will force him to leave you if you don’t stop.
Signs of a self destructive personality include alcohol abuse,drug abuse,sex addiction and eating disorders.
You need to believe that your husband is the only sexual partner you require and also you need to believe you deserve him.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

I really think you are worrying to much @EllaSuaveterre.

Im with ConanHub on this one. I would be more annoyed by the constant worrrying than the fact that my wife kissed a girl with my permission.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

sokillme said:


> You should work on this fear you have of loss (not that it's not normal, but right now you are being a little over the top). Love coming from a point of fear is not as strong as love coming from a point of confidence. Love coming from fear is reactive, love coming as a gift with no fear or expectation of response is proactive and much better. Everyone should strive to love someone as a gift.
> 
> I also think if you spend all this time worrying about him and not working your you you will have once again missed an opportunity and will probably repeat the same patterns. This is not about your husband.


A person with bpd tendencies by nature lives in a world of fear. It's a constant roller coaster. 

Her constant focus and worry about him is more driven to avoid dealing with her own issues. The focus almost always is on the external and things they can't control but try to instead of reflecting and focusing within, learning and changing behaviors.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> If he is thinking any of this, I NEED him to tell me. It is paramount to my physical, emotional, and psychological safety that I know exactly how he's feeling and to what extent. If I have to, I will probably corner him into telling me and risk whatever comes of that. I will likely show him this thread. Why in the name of God wouldn't he tell me his thoughts?!!


You asked your husband if you could kiss another person. You then had a makeout session with tongue slapping and moaning (or whatever it was that was "too much").

Just what do you expect him to say to that? Geez, leave the guy alone and let him put the drunken craziness behind him. You are making HIM pay the price for YOUR guilt. He has forgiven you and said he's had enough of talking about it. What more do you want?

What about HIS psychological and emotional safety? You just made your husband watch you kiss another person passionately. My gosh, what a freaking number you just played on his emotions and psyche! Now you need him to fix up your guilt problem. This is totally unfair and unreasonable of you. 


The truth: You did this. Now YOU are going to have to live with it. He's not that worried about it because it's not on HIS conscience. He did nothing wrong other than not tell you what he really thought about you kissing her, which I doubt he'd have worried about much until you enjoyed it so freaking much. My advice: learn to accept what you did. Forgive yourself. Keep your lips and other body parts to yourself and your husband and leave other people out of it. Leave your husband alone about it. If HE brings it up, answer his questions, tell him you are embarrassed and sorry and it won't ever happen again and you don't feel any more curiosity (if that's true, of course). Then let it go.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> I really think you are worrying to much @EllaSuaveterre.
> 
> Im with ConanHub on this one. I would be more annoyed by the constant worrrying than the fact that my wife kissed a girl with my permission.


If I'm her H I'd be very pissed that she took that pill .


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Malaise said:


> If I'm her H I'd be very pissed that she took that pill .




If I was her H, I would just want her to STFU about something we’ve already discussed to death. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Elizabeth001 said:


> If I was her H, I would just want her to STFU about something we’ve already discussed to death.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That too.


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## LaReine (Aug 14, 2017)

It does sound like you convinced him rather than him freely giving permission. But he still said ok. So, no you didn't break your vows but you did possibly force your husband.

Stop talking to us and talk to him.

Stop drinking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

I believe your obsessing over this is directly connected to your fear of abandonment. You are trying to control the situation, and the fallout or lack of fallout, out of fear that if he is unhappy (and not telling you the truth) that he will eventually abandon you.


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## Primrose (Mar 4, 2015)

I'm just curious as to why you felt the need to kiss someone else who isn't your spouse. You do not get a free pass to experiment with your sexuality AFTER you have tied the knot. When you married him, you pledged to forsake all others, meaning BOTH genders. We make choices, daily, to remain faithful to our spouse; curiosity, be damned. 

Whether or not he gave you permission freely, or he felt like he was in a no win situation so agreed to avoid conflict.. yes, you did break your vow. He apparently does not want to do much discussing on the subject, so I'd drop it, avoid parties, and continue on a path of fidelity with your husband. If you feel so urged to experiment again, then maybe marriage isn't right for you at this time.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> I believe your obsessing over this is directly connected to your fear of abandonment. You are trying to control the situation, and the fallout or lack of fallout, out of fear that if he is unhappy (and not telling you the truth) that he will eventually abandon you.


Yes, this. I know this very intimately, but what am I to do about it?? People are giving me conflicting advice and I have no idea which direction to go with it. I probably won't have a clear idea until I go to IC on Thursday.

Meanwhile, I'm getting all kinds of conflicting information. He's fine with it. He's not fine with it. He's turned on by it. He's deeply hurt. He should be divorcing me. I should talk to him about it. I should stop talking to him about it. Of course, this is a forum so that's bound to happen but I have NO IDEA what to do. I have even less idea of what to do than before I posted.

I have been introspective about this, trying to figure out why I wanted to (and asked to) kiss this girl. It wasn't for attention or sympathy. It wasn't because I was physically attracted to her, at least not outside of that one scenario. If anything, I was truly only curious, because (and I hate to be mean but) she's not my type at ALL.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Earth to Ella...

Excessive analysis is great only in two cases:

1. It's not you that you're analyzing

2. It's your job

Talk to your counselor but try to reduce the talks with Mr S about it. Otherwise he'll tune your concerns out eventually.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

john117 said:


> Earth to Ella...
> 
> Excessive analysis is great only in two cases:
> 
> ...


Introspection is not a good thing? I was always under the impression that it was admirable to be as introspective as possible when you have BPD. As to point one, trying to overanalyze him has brought me mostly grief. 

Meanwhile I've obsessed and cried all day in private, but have said nothing to him thus far this evening. Tomorrow, we are scheduled to play The And, so I'll have to hope an opportunity comes up then.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Ella,

I think you shouldn't have kissed your H after kissing the OW because you don't know what STD the OW might have had that you then transmitted to your H. 

If the OW is married you should apologize to her H.

Tamat


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

You need to leave your husband alone, and deal with your own issues in counseling. You can't control him. Can you ask him to come to your counselling session with you? Your counselor, who knows you will be able to ferret out what is really going on with you. Your husband needs to be there to tell his side of the story, and to witness what the counselor tells you, so he can make his informed decisions.

I have a question, did he marry a child because he has the patience of a father?


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## introvert (May 30, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Your a 24 year old beautiful women, of course a non sex life is a problem.


It sounds like she and her hubs are both lower drive people, and suitably matched in that area. 

Only one orgasm in her life, when she was engaged, and she's fine with it. It's not about frequency, it's about being well matched with your spouse.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Introspection is not a good thing? I was always under the impression that it was admirable to be as introspective as possible when you have BPD. As to point one, trying to overanalyze him has brought me mostly grief.
> 
> Meanwhile I've obsessed and cried all day in private, but have said nothing to him thus far this evening. Tomorrow, we are scheduled to play The And, so I'll have to hope an opportunity comes up then.


Productive introspection is great. But if introspection is the primary source of feedback things get biased, self doubt comes in...

You have to have confidence in your actions. You aren't going to get any more out of thinking about what happened. Try to learn and move on. 

You're in the right track, but try to put the events behind you.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
I believe that I can assuage your fears regarding your H leaving you. As I read these pages I see a very disturbed relationship emerging from the extraneous chatter and it is disconcerting. Throughout this thread you have repeatedly and vehemently proclaimed that you "need" to know that your H was not hurt by your actions. You have stated that you must know the truth regarding his feelings. He, on the other hand, seems quite nonchalant about the whole ordeal and would seemingly prefer to just drop it.

On the one hand there is your "obsession" to know how this has affected him and on the other his insistence that it is of little concern to him. May I posit that you two seem to share a symbiotic relationship driven, almost entirely, by fear. Your fear of abandonment, losing your security and his fear of losing what he feared he may never obtain, his young, beautiful wife. Allow me to explain.

You stated that you and he married when he was 28 and you 18 and that you were both virgins. An attractive 18 year old female who has no sexual experience is somewhat uncommon but a 28 year old man is much more so. I sense that he felt a certain ineptness around "more experienced" women and that he found in you a young, inexperienced and quite immaturely naive "little girl". One that had been mostly sheltered and with little exposure to the "ways of the world" and who was quite taken that such a mature "man" would pay her such heed. She was swept away by the fantasy of it.

He, likewise, was delighted to have found a girl that did not notice his awkward ways, one around whom, because of her innocence and naivete, he did not experience the crippling nervousness that he had always felt around women his own age. He had found what he was beginning to believe he would never have and he is terrified that he may lose it.

So, we have a girl that is afraid that she will lose her security and a boy that is afraid that he will lose his one and only chance at being with a beautiful woman. A relationship built on fear.

So, in order to keep his prize he is willing to endure whatever pain she inflicts and in order to keep her security she offers up excuse after excuse and "showers of affection" for behavior that could only be deemed as uncaring and immature, feigning love but lacking the essence thereof. So you see he will never leave because in his insecurity and ineptness, he fears he could never "replace" you. Likewise you choose to stay and endure the "what ifs" of another man, a bisexual experience and whatever else you feel you are "missing" in order to have the sheltered security you have always had.

I believe that this relationship is unsustainable in its current form and that in order to perpetuate it you both must face your demons and mature beyond fear as a reason to stay together. I wish you good fortune.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Meanwhile, I'm getting all kinds of conflicting information. He's fine with it. He's not fine with it. He's turned on by it. He's deeply hurt. He should be divorcing me. I should talk to him about it. I should stop talking to him about it. Of course, this is a forum so that's bound to happen but I have NO IDEA what to do. I have even less idea of what to do than before I posted.


Why don't you just listen to him and believe what he says. Again I will ask you was there ever a time where he told you he was feeling one thing and and was really feeling something totally different? You husband isn't one to cover up stuff, he is just not demonstrative. I really think he is OK, maybe a little shocked but nothing that he is going to end your marriage over. Count yourself lucky and work on your boundaries.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> EllaSuaveterre said:
> 
> 
> > Meanwhile, I'm getting all kinds of conflicting information. He's fine with it. He's not fine with it. He's turned on by it. He's deeply hurt. He should be divorcing me. I should talk to him about it. I should stop talking to him about it. Of course, this is a forum so that's bound to happen but I have NO IDEA what to do. I have even less idea of what to do than before I posted.
> ...


You're right, I think. I will play The And with him tomorrow, go to counseling Thursday, and try to put it behind us.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> I have a question, did he marry a child because he has the patience of a father?


I can only pray so, and I did ask him to come to therapy with me when I can schedule a session in the afternoon so he wouldn't have to take off work. He agreed sans hesitation. That will be a few weeks from now though, as I tend to try to schedule my appointments far in advance.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Malaise said:


> If I'm her H I'd be very pissed that she took that pill .


Different strokes i guess.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> If he is thinking any of this, I NEED him to tell me. It is paramount to my physical, emotional, and psychological safety that I know exactly how he's feeling and to what extent. If I have to, I will probably corner him into telling me and risk whatever comes of that. I will likely show him this thread. Why in the name of God wouldn't he tell me his thoughts?!!


I will bet money that the reason he walked away while you were kissing Kay is because he did not expect you to throw yourself into it so energetically and start moaning with pleasure and he could not sit there and watch it. He told you this a couple of times or so you have said in your posts. He did not expect you to be "into it so much" and then you "started making noises".

The rest is just speculation which is based on how I would feel under similar circumstances.

I would not push him any further. He has told you why he walked away, you just did not listen, or he is not up to the detailed explanation that you want or seem to need.

I would not show him this thread. That would eliminate the safe place you have to vent your feelings.

Why will he not share his thoughts? He does not understand the feelings enough to verbalize them at this time. Or, he is afraid of pushing you away. Or he feels guilty that intense negative feelings were triggered by an act that he allowed (even encouraged) to take place.

I have no idea what the game you two plan to play tomorrow, but you seem to think it could help. I hope so.

You are paying one hell of a price to satisfy your curiosity. Now learn from it. Was it worth it?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

My wife had a one night stand with the neighbor lady while i was at work. She was drunk and regretted it immediately upon waking up. 

It shocked me. I reacted quite harshely. 

In the end, however, i calmed down and just learned to enjoy my wifes proclivity for the female sex. It doesnt threaten me in the slightest. 

@EllaSuaveterre, i dont think it will make much of a difference whether you constantly talk to your husband about it or not. With my wife, my mind was settled quickly. I wish my wife would have gotten over it sooner. She doesnt want to leave me for a woman, and even if she did, i would be just fine. And she knows that.

As it is though, i just enjoy seeing her get excited and happy. Maybe its because i have lost a hell of a lot of friends in combat and think about life a lit. Maybe its because i have since been declared dead twice and think about life a lit. Maybe it has nothing to do with any of that and i just enjoy seeing my wife play with another woman. 

Whatever the case is, who gives a ****? Its my life, and i dont have to answer to anyone elses rules(except the army's, of course).

Stop worrying about it.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

TDSC60 said:


> I have no idea what the game you two plan to play tomorrow, but you seem to think it could help. I hope so.
> 
> You are paying one hell of a price to satisfy your curiosity. Now learn from it. Was it worth it?


The And is a beautiful game that I found on the internet and modified to suit us. It is the best way we can have deep conversations, because it does not alarm or trigger either of us in any way.

There are 300+ question cards, most of which I either wrote myself or found online. We take turns drawing a card, and ask the other person the question on it. The other person must answer with absolute, unfiltered honesty, and in a complete sentence (no _yes_ or _no_ or _I don't know_ answers allowed). Often, a discussion is sparked from this, but the player who answered the question is not obligated to answer any follow-up questions. Then, the player who answered the first question draws a card and asks a question, taking turns like this.

You can pass on answering a question, but in order to do so, you have to say "pass" and gaze into the other person's eyes for ten uninterrupted seconds. 

You can also forfeit the entire game, but the one who forfeits owes his/her partner a 45-minute massage, to be delivered within 24 hours.

The length of the game can vary. If e only have a hour or so to spare, we only ask 5 questions apiece. If we have two hours, we ask ten apiece.

For the record, we have never passed on a question or forfeited a game, a fact of which I am very proud.

This isn't in the rules, but we always end the game with a cuddle session. :grin2:

I'm actually in the process of making new cards on photoshop, and I could pass them along as printables when I finish, if you're interested.

Also for the record, regarding Kay, I don't think I've ever done anything less worth it in my entire life. I wish I could step back in time and warn myself. I'd say, "I know you're drunk and everyone looks attractive right now, but for the love of Heaven, go home RIGHT NOW and go to bed!!"


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> The And is a beautiful game that I found on the internet and modified to suit us. It is the best way we can have deep conversations, because it does not alarm or trigger either of us in any way.
> 
> There are 300+ question cards, most of which I either wrote myself or found online. We take turns drawing a card, and ask the other person the question on it. The other person must answer with absolute, unfiltered honesty, and in a complete sentence (no _yes_ or _no_ or _I don't know_ answers allowed). Often, a discussion is sparked from this, but the player who answered the question is not obligated to answer any follow-up questions. Then, the player who answered the first question draws a card and asks a question, taking turns like this.
> 
> ...


Do you have a link to the original rules? And why is it called "The And" game?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> Do you have a link to the original rules? And why is it called "The And" game?


I don't have a link to the original rules, because most of them I made up, as the "game" wasn't originally a game exactly, but a sort of sociological project portrayed through YouTube.

It's called The And because the word _and_-- as in "Kit and Ella" or "Mr. and Mrs."-- is what defines two people as a couple as well as, literally, dividing them. So too does the game. It can redefine a marriage, bringing people together while drawing out the things that divide them, at the same time.

I will make a separate post about it on the General Forum.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

introvert said:


> It sounds like she and her hubs are both lower drive people, and suitably matched in that area.
> 
> 
> 
> Only one orgasm in her life, when she was engaged, and she's fine with it. It's not about frequency, it's about being well matched with your spouse.




But she had one affair and kissed a girl. Doesn't sound lower drive to me.


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

I woke up to the sound of loud mysterious and dramatic organ music. I followed it to here. Good morning everyone!


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> While we're not satisfied with our sex lives, we also don't believe it's a huge issue for us. We were both virgins before we were married, and therefore don't have a whole lot of sexual experience at all and don't know what we're missing.


We all have thoughts, feelings, desires, or even needs that we keep hidden from others and sometimes even ourselves. Growing up I heard a saying that I believe to be true. "Drunken words are sober thoughts." Meaning, alcohol is a drug that loosens inhibitions and, generally, what people say and do when they are drunk is reflective of what they think and feel sober, but repress to keep the peace without and within. 

At the party, you say that you found many people attractive.You say that you wanted to be kissed by your acquaintance and that you enjoyed the kiss and were making noises that would indicate the beginnings of physical arousal. 
I suspect you're in denial. I think some part of you is/has become very aware of what you've missed out on and are continuing to miss out on. I suspect that this is why you had the affair and why you kissed your acquaintance. I think you're a late bloomer who is beginning to bloom. I also think you are denying your needs, repressing them, in order to keep the peace in your heart and in your marriage. Some people can spend a lifetime repressing their desires and be perfectly content. Most cannot. Eventually, something gives one way or another.

What fails to evolve, dies. I think your marriage, in particular the sexual aspect, is going to have to evolve or you'll end up cheating (again), leaving, or losing your mind.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> Different strokes i guess.


Taking that pill could have affected her health and safety. 

Different strokes indeed.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

"I kissed a girl and I liked it?"

Hmmm.... Sounds like it could be some Teeny-Bopper song to me.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> We all have thoughts, feelings, desires, or even needs that we keep hidden from others and sometimes even ourselves. Growing up I heard a saying that I believe to be true. "Drunken words are sober thoughts." Meaning, alcohol is a drug that loosens inhibitions and, generally, what people say and do when they are drunk is reflective of what they think and feel sober, but repress to keep the peace without and within.
> 
> At the party, you say that you found many people attractive.You say that you wanted to be kissed by your acquaintance and that you enjoyed the kiss and were making noises that would indicate the beginnings of physical arousal.
> I suspect you're in denial. I think some part of you is/has become very aware of what you've missed out on and are continuing to miss out on. I suspect that this is why you had the affair and why you kissed your acquaintance. I think you're a late bloomer who is beginning to bloom. I also think you are denying your needs, repressing them, in order to keep the peace in your heart and in your marriage. Some people can spend a lifetime repressing their desires and be perfectly content. Most cannot. Eventually, something gives one way or another.
> ...


I too believe that drunk words are sober thoughts. While it's true that I only have any kind of a sex drive while I'm drunk, there is a part of me that wonders what it would be like to have an active sex life, preferably with Mr. Suaveterre. That night, I recall I flirted with him first, and offered to take him to the back bedroom. All of the other times I have been drunk, I have expressed a strong preference for his company and sexual attentions, as opposed to anyone else's.

The below post gets a little more graphic and delves into far too much detail than I ever want anyone to know, but oh well. 

I grew up in a very conservative household, and was taught from the onset of puberty that women have little sexual agency. The only time someone is allowed (required) to say no is when someone comes on to them before they're married. I was taught that if your husband wants it you give it to him, period, and that all men were sexual animals who, if left to their own devices, would take it from you any way they could. I was never taught that there could be a case in which a man didn't want it, and what to do in that case. I was never taught that there could be a case in which a woman desired sex rather than allowed it to happen. 

At a younger age than I should have I got on the internet and discovered what BDSM was, which reinforced the notion that men are animals and women are meant to lay there and take it.

Clearly, my sexual education did not match the reality of my marriage at all. We have had numerous talks about it over the years, about the feelings of confusion and inadequacy that both of us feel occasionally when we compare our sex life to the only things we know of to compare it to--movies and porn. On a primal level, it's a bit disheartening to not be able to complete the act of copulation. But on a far more rational level I'm aware that it's because of medical problems, not because of me. 

Very recently, (but, I should add, before the kiss) I have had a talk with him to tell him that my sexuality is evolving, my sexual desires seem to be coming out more, and we must get our sex lives on track to match. He agreed that if our medical problems are not resolved by December, we will resort to invasive and drastic measures like surgery and drugs, and once the physical issues are fixed (by any means necessary) if there are still glaring issues we will consider Sex Therapy.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

What medical problems do each of you have that prevent you from having sex? Have you ever had sex before?
I personally think that is what is missing from your life Ella and I believe you can have a happy successful sex life.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Dear EllaSuaveterre;

If I were you, I would find a nice Catholic Priest, confess my sins, ask him to pray with you to seek forgiveness. Then I would do the appropriate Our Fathers and Hail Marry's. After that, I would move on with my life and never repeat the mistake you made. 

We are all human and like all humans have weaknesses. Sometimes when we drink or take other intoxicants our inhibitions crumble and we are less likely to walk the straight and narrow. 

Take this as a wake-up call. It appears that your husband has forgiven you or at least is amused and confused by your behavior. If God can forgive you (and he can), then surely you can forgive yourself and move on with your life and redouble your efforts to honor your husband.

Good luck. 

P.S. Alcohol has lots of bad empty calories. Considering your eating problems, make all your calories as healthy as possible.


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## runner-up (Sep 21, 2017)

If you choose to define "cheating" as fooling around only without your husband's knowledge, that still leaves the question of loyalty. Kissing someone else in that way even in front of your husband is an act of disloyalty. It also sends a message to your husband that boundaries don't have to be respected. Even if he does not question when or whether in/out of his presence you'll cross the line again in the future, how do you know if he's going to ever regard this experience as his own permission to cross a line at some point?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> What medical problems do each of you have that prevent you from having sex? Have you ever had sex before?
> I personally think that is what is missing from your life Ella and I believe you can have a happy successful sex life.


I have vaginismus due to having cerebral palsy. Basically all the muscles in the lower half of my body are always tight contracted, and that includes "down there", meaning that it's hard for him to fit himself in. Muscle relaxers could fix this, but I have an aversion to them due to a traumatic experience as a child which involved finding out several months too late that I was allergic to a certain type of muscle relaxer, and it causing me severe pain and bodily stress.

He has a condition called phimosis, meaning he's uncircumcised and can't "unsheathe" himself. This means he has very little sensitivity down there, and I alone cannot bring him to orgasm. Circumcision would rectify this, but he's had an aversion to it for years because obviously the idea of someone cutting off a part of your genitals isn't a pleasant one.

However, we've recently agreed that the idea of us having an active sex life is one worth facing our fears for. I just hope he's still willing to go through with it when December comes.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I have vaginismus due to having cerebral palsy. Basically all the muscles in the lower half of my body are always tight contracted, and that includes "down there", meaning that it's hard for him to fit himself in. Muscle relaxers could fix this, but I have an aversion to them due to a traumatic experience as a child which involved finding out several months too late that I was allergic to a certain type of muscle relaxer, and it causing me severe pain and bodily stress.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So I give anesthesia for a living and I have done many cases for adult men getting circumcised and I can tell you that it's actually not that uncommon and not as bad as he may think. 

Also I hope you enjoy other stimulation besides intercourse because as you know there are more than one way to skin a cat .


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> So I give anesthesia for a living and I have done many cases for adult men getting circumcised and I can tell you that it's actually not that uncommon and not as bad as he may think.
> 
> Also I hope you enjoy other stimulation besides intercourse because as you know there are more than one way to skin a cat .


Although it sounds horrible to undergo as an adult, my uncle also had it done later in life and he had no issues and says it really wasn't that bad.

If there are things the two of you can do to help with this, then by all means go for it!


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I have vaginismus due to having cerebral palsy. Basically all the muscles in the lower half of my body are always tight contracted, and that includes "down there", meaning that it's hard for him to fit himself in. Muscle relaxers could fix this, but I have an aversion to them due to a traumatic experience as a child which involved finding out several months too late that I was allergic to a certain type of muscle relaxer, and it causing me severe pain and bodily stress.
> 
> He has a condition called phimosis, meaning he's uncircumcised and can't "unsheathe" himself. This means he has very little sensitivity down there, and I alone cannot bring him to orgasm. Circumcision would rectify this, but he's had an aversion to it for years because obviously the idea of someone cutting off a part of your genitals isn't a pleasant one.
> 
> However, we've recently agreed that the idea of us having an active sex life is one worth facing our fears for. I just hope he's still willing to go through with it when December comes.


WTC.

So you have an actual issue which requires medication to remedy.

He has an issue which would be corrected with a little trimming and he refuses orgasms because he's afraid of getting cut? Are you kidding me? Boohoo - have him watch a video on an episiotomy, then let him complain about a little clip 

Turn him around, kick him in the rear and tell him to get clipped.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

snerg said:


> WTC.
> 
> So you have an actual issue which requires medication to remedy.
> 
> ...


While I'm going to be as firm on this issue as I am on other medical issues of his, meaning that I will not back down and take no for an answer, I have a lot of empathy for him here. I certainly wouldn't want my clitoral hood cut off, even if it were causing me problems. I mean, the only equivalent I can think of to put myself in his situation is illegal in most countries!! I would be terrified. While I wouldn't want to scare him further by saying it out loud I'm sure he'll be in fairly severe pain for few weeks when it's all done. So while I believe after 6 years of marriage that finally correcting our medical issues is no longer a thing we can avoid, I'm not going to be mean or tough about it, just politely insistent.

I have no desire to kick him in the rear about anything, but especially not this. He'll be in enough pain without my help.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Just be sure not to walk around in sexy clothing in front of him for a few days after the surgery. And let him dress the wound himself.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> If my wife had a generally good sex life, I would have no problem at all with her fooling around a little with another woman. It would actually be rather arousing. I might hope to be invited do join...... but in general I'd be fine with it. Not all men are bothered at all by this.




Yes! High quality spank bank material, as somebody wiser than me noted above. Weird, the double standard. Many women are perfectly aware of this when they put on a quasi lesbian show at clubs or parties when many guys are watching. Quite a stereo type.
What was your genuine motivation to kiss her? Have you worked it out yet? Was it to impress your husband or gauge his reaction? Was it genuine curiosity? Or was there no thought at all? Judging by how much probing you are giving to your husband (bordering on sadism, even if subconscious), I am inclined to go with the first one. It almost seems to bother you that he isn’t too bothered by all the tongueing??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> Yes! High quality spank bank material, as somebody wiser than me noted above. Weird, the double standard. Many women are perfectly aware of this when they put on a quasi lesbian show at clubs or parties when many guys are watching. Quite a stereo type.
> What was your genuine motivation to kiss her? Have you worked it out yet? Was it to impress your husband or gauge his reaction? Was it genuine curiosity? Or was there no thought at all? Judging by how much probing you are giving to your husband (bordering on sadism, even if subconscious), I am inclined to go with the first one. It almost seems to bother you that *he isn’t too bothered by all the tongueing??*
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh it bothered him alright. That is why he got up and walked away. He did not expect his wife to get so energetic and into it as much as she did. He also was probably embarrassed to be seen sitting beside his wife and another woman while they were passionately kissing each other. It bothered him - but hey - he had said it was OK - he could not stop it then. He probably expected a quick peck and done. What happened bothered him.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Yes, this. I know this very intimately, but what am I to do about it?? People are giving me conflicting advice and I have no idea which direction to go with it. I probably won't have a clear idea until I go to IC on Thursday.
> 
> Meanwhile, I'm getting all kinds of conflicting information. He's fine with it. He's not fine with it. He's turned on by it. He's deeply hurt. He should be divorcing me. I should talk to him about it. I should stop talking to him about it. Of course, this is a forum so that's bound to happen but I have NO IDEA what to do. I have even less idea of what to do than before I posted.
> 
> I have been introspective about this, trying to figure out why I wanted to (and asked to) kiss this girl. It wasn't for attention or sympathy. It wasn't because I was physically attracted to her, at least not outside of that one scenario. If anything, I was truly only curious, because (and I hate to be mean but) she's not my type at ALL.


Is it possible you are slightly addicted to self-flagellation? It is no wonder since your relationship went through a really traumatic event with your actual affair/abuse. Have you finished working through that with him instead? 'Cos that's an actual issue. *This is not the same at all*, neither technically nor in theory. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and you have to simply stop wasting your time creating monsters out of shadows take what he says at face value. Is he not climbing walls by now that you don't seem to believe a word of what he is saying? (that he doesn't care). If you love him, try at least to respect him and believe what he is saying.

Also be careful that you don't fall easy prey for people winding you up...As much as it can be entertaining to keep giving you reasons for self-doubts, for your own sanity, just stop going on about it with him (and in your own mind). Focus on something else. For example I was slightly disturbed to read about the fact that you only like 'sex as a concept and as an idea of having an active sex life' and 'only had one orgasm' etc... How often do you both actually do it??


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Another thing I've recently thought of is perhaps, if he does indeed believe that alcohol unlocks my innermost thoughts, and it may well do, I could get wasted again and tell him then, when he might be subconsciously more inclined to believe me, how absolutely bloody terrified I am of the consequences of my actions!!!


What a great idea <sarcasm> Make sure you invite the girl over next time you get wasted and write about it hear! :wink2:
Alcohol doesn't unlock anything. It prevents people from acting rationally and responsibly. It doesn't mean there is any higher truth to yourself when you are intoxicated. It just makes people do stupid things.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Also for the record, regarding Kay, I don't think I've ever done anything less worth it in my entire life. I wish I could step back in time and warn myself. I'd say, "I know you're drunk and everyone looks attractive right now, but for the love of Heaven, go home RIGHT NOW and go to bed!!"


Do you not feel that the actual affair and abuse you endured previously was not significantly more damaging?! Or am I being crazy.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Young at Heart said:


> Dear EllaSuaveterre;
> 
> If I were you, I would find a nice Catholic Priest, confess my sins, ask him to pray with you to seek forgiveness...


Isn't it exactly what happened last time and she got institutionalized?? (because the priest took advantage of the trust? Sorry if I got it wrong.)


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Yes... If he would have said no in any way at all I wouldn't have done it. If he hadn't been there right beside me I wouldn't have done it. That's why I broke the kiss when he got up. I didn't want to do ANYTHING he wasn't okay with, and I didn't want to do anything he wasn't aware of.


Sounds familiar! I have learned that just because your partner says it’s “okay” or doesn’t say anything against it doesn’t make it right (nor does it mean they’re necessarily really okay with it - plus he was very much on the spot without adequate time or privacy to truly consider, and he had been drinking). We need to take the responsibility onto our own shoulders and hold ourselves accountable for doing the right thing regardless of other factors/variables instead of asking permission for something wrong and thinking that makes it okay somehow. 

And I would avoid any substances if I were you. I never ever drink or anything else, and one reason is that I know I need to be in full possession of my faculties at all times and remain fully self-aware. Impulsivity does not need help, for sure! We need to strengthen our brakes and better judgment, not weaken them.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> Isn't it exactly what happened last time and she got institutionalized?? (because the priest took advantage of the trust? Sorry if I got it wrong.)


If I remember correctly it was a Wiccan/Pagan priest who took advantage of her.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@inmyprime

The actual affair that happened in 2014 has been resolved and put behind us. We did a ton of talking about it last year and he has completely forgiven me.

I say that I regret what happened with Kay more because with the priest I learned a lot of lessons about the nature of long-term relationships (that just because I lost the butterflies with my husband for a couple months doesn't mean we were going to divorce in the immediate future and I should find another ship to sail on before this one sinks) and I'll be able to carry those lessons for the rest of my life. The affair wasn't "worth it", but something good did come out of it.

So far with Kay, nothing of value has occurred as a result of what I've done.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Ella,
I don't mean this as an insult but IMO you are not emotionally strong enough or secure enough to play outside the lines , or even near the lines of what is a conventional relationship. I wouldn't be either ,so not judging, but I can recognize that in myself. For your own mental health you should probably not experiment or push your( or your husband's) boundaries until you have come to grips with yourself. You set yourself up for this and are now torturing yourself.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> @inmyprime
> 
> The actual affair that happened in 2014 has been resolved and put behind us. We did a ton of talking about it last year and he has completely forgiven me.
> 
> ...




Give it a bit of time: there’ll be something positive to take away from it too. Like realising how much risk intoxication could put your relationship at. 
It’s too recent at the moment and you are both probably bit shell shocked.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

So Ella, how did -what was it called - The And game go? 

Resolve anything or just more questions?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

TDSC60 said:


> So Ella, how did -what was it called - The And game go?
> 
> Resolve anything or just more questions?


Our game had to be played tonight as yesterday I was ill, but it went well. He honestly doesn't hold any blame towards me for kissing Kay, to my surprise. It's just that neither of us were really prepared for what it did to us emotionally. He specifically said, also, that he thinks it's totally unnecessary to go NC with Kay, so I suppose we're staying friends. 

I also got some tips on little things I could do to help us foster a deeper love for one another. He wants me to wear more sundresses, like I used to when we first met. He told me he really appreciates how much stress I've been putting myself through for his sake lately in regards to managing his medical crises.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

OnTheRocks said:


> I have no idea why I took you off of my ignore list. Back you go, you childish narcissistic wretch.


Why would you speak to me that way? Nobody deserves to be called names like that, especially when I haven't done anything to you.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Ella,

I never agreed with name calling as it gets in the way of more serious questions.

One of which is was the other woman married or does she have a SO, because not only have you changed your marriage but you may have intruded on someone elses relationship. There is a potential fourth person involved here who remains in the dark.

Tamat


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Our game had to be played tonight as yesterday I was ill, but it went well. He honestly doesn't hold any blame towards me for kissing Kay, to my surprise. It's just that neither of us were really prepared for what it did to us emotionally. *He specifically said, also, that he thinks it's totally unnecessary to go NC with Kay, so I suppose we're staying friends.
> *
> I also got some tips on little things I could do to help us foster a deeper love for one another. He wants me to wear more sundresses, like I used to when we first met. He told me he really appreciates how much stress I've been putting myself through for his sake lately in regards to managing his medical crises.


UM - OK. But do not let any conversation with Kay drift into anything remotely related to the kiss or the emotions involved there with you and your husband. With her, it is best just tell her you were drunk and curious and if your husband had not been there it never would have happened and it will never happen again. Also do not start discussing the bi-sexual lifestyle with Kay. That could be a dangerous area for your husband and your marriage.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

TAMAT said:


> Ella,
> 
> I never agreed with name calling as it gets in the way of more serious questions.
> 
> ...


She does have an SO, whom she only mentioned to me yesterday. Apparently they are swingers, and since they are both bisexual, they consider doing anything with their own gender to be not cheating in their own relationship.

To be completely honest, I have enough on my plate without calling her boyfriend to confirm (or, for the matter, finding out his name and contact details) so if he somehow contacts me asking for details, I will tell him everything, but I'd really rather not go looking for him.

Also, my husband said he expected and wanted me to talk with Kay about what happened. He seemed to take the position that we should help each other sort through our feelings, so that's what we did. I told her I felt bisexual experimentation wasn't worth it because it made my husband a little overwhelmed with some kind of feeling he can't yet name, and I really regret the whole thing and feel awful and I'm going to therapy today to talk about it. I told Mr. S. about the conversation and everything therein, and he said it was all kosher and fine and he had no ill feelings whatsoever.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I even went so far as to say, "Are you SURE you want me to talk to her? TAM says there's a protocol..." and he said I'm overreacting to even suggest cutting contact with Kay. 

I dunno. I'm going with what he says... If he does change his mind about NC I will establish NC immediately, but he almost made it seem like going NC would make it _more_ awkward for _him_. Right now, my priority is whatever he seems to be the most comfortable with, even if it directly contradicts common wisdom in infidelity circles.

I don't want to let him rugsweep, but on the other hand, I don't want to make any of this any more painful for him than it has to be, and if treating the kiss the same as a full-blown affair would deepen his pain instead of heal it, (and I can see how it might-- if he saw me treating it as full infidelity, he might think I viewed her as an affair partner or a love interest, which rather makes me want to vomit) I'll keep everything relatively light. I still want to bring it up occasionally, though, to make sure he's not stuffing down his feelings. We talked about that in The And yesterday, and I think he needs time to process without my prodding. He got closer to naming the feeling that overcame him when I kissed her, though. He said it wasn't disgust, but it made him cringe.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Of course, I'm about to bring it up to my therapist, and her advice will greatly sway my course of action...

Wish me luck.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I dunno. I'm going with what he says..






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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I even went so far as to say, "Are you SURE you want me to talk to her? TAM says there's a protocol..." and he said I'm overreacting to even suggest cutting contact with Kay.
> 
> I dunno. I'm going with what he says... If he does change his mind about NC I will establish NC immediately, but *he almost made it seem like going NC would make it more awkward for him.* Right now, my priority is whatever he seems to be the most comfortable with, even if it directly contradicts common wisdom in infidelity circles.
> 
> I don't want to let him rugsweep, but on the other hand, I don't want to make any of this any more painful for him than it has to be, and if treating the kiss the same as a full-blown affair would deepen his pain instead of heal it, (and I can see how it might-- if he saw me treating it as full infidelity, he might think I viewed her as an affair partner or a love interest, which rather makes me want to vomit) I'll keep everything relatively light. I still want to bring it up occasionally, though, to make sure he's not stuffing down his feelings. We talked about that in The And yesterday, and I think he needs time to process without my prodding. He got closer to naming the feeling that overcame him when I kissed her, though. He said it wasn't disgust, but it made him cringe.


Because it probably would make it more awkward for him. He's spent his whole life having it drilled into him by popular culture that him saying he wasn't OK with you talking to someone else is somehow controlling. That is likely part of the pressure he felt in the moment when you asked him if he would be OK with you kissing Kay. It was obvious that you wanted to, else you wouldn't have asked in the first place, and if he would have said no, I am not OK with you kissing someone else, doing something that you wanted to do, that again is something that popular culture has shamed people into believing is somehow controlling and wrong to feel that way.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I just got out of therapy. I know for a fact I have never cried that much in session before. I don't have any more or any better answers. She wasn't able to tell me whether kissing Kay was wrong or not. She wasn't able to tell me whether my husband truly gave his consent or whether he caved out of a desire to please me. She wasn't even able to tell me how much talking about it was too much. All she could tell me was that I clearly prioritized not hurting him over continuing to please myself, and if I keep acting on a desire not to hurt my husband, that would lead to the best outcome. 

I used to really pity wayward spouses who would wax poetic about how awful they are and how much they shattered their betrayed, especially on SurvivingInfidelity. My thoughts toward such spouses veered between sympathy ("you poor lamb, how can you be causing yourself this much anguish?") and disgust. ("Do you really think denigrating yourself like that is going to win you any favor? Have some self-respect.")

But-- and I hate this so much-- I am beginning to see myself in these self-loathing saps. I know he won't divorce me. I cried anyway because I fear he's been hurt and our love has been damaged. Heck, I'm wearing a dress right now that I think I look hideous in, but that I know he loves. I am allowing my fear of having damaged him and us to dictate everything from how I approach Kay all the way down to my wardrobe. I still don't even necessarily think kissing her was wrong, and that doesn't matter a bit because if it hurts him, it's now wrong to me. I don't like feeling such a fundamental uncleanliness in knowing that I have hurt him. 

I, who so strongly preached love and tolerance to fellow wayward spouses, am unable to feel any for myself. It was never like this with the actual affair. After the affair in 2014, everyone's primary concern, including his, was my mental health. Now, my primary concern is his, and it deeply depresses me and weighs me down knowing that my actions have led to this. I feel like such spineless pond scum and I hate it.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I just got out of therapy. I know for a fact I have never cried that much in session before. I don't have any more or any better answers. She wasn't able to tell me whether kissing Kay was wrong or not. She wasn't able to tell me whether my husband truly gave his consent or whether he caved out of a desire to please me. She wasn't even able to tell me how much talking about it was too much. All she could tell me was that I clearly prioritized not hurting him over continuing to please myself, and if I keep acting on a desire not to hurt my husband, that would lead to the best outcome.
> 
> I used to really pity wayward spouses who would wax poetic about how awful they are and how much they shattered their betrayed, especially on SurvivingInfidelity. My thoughts toward such spouses veered between sympathy ("you poor lamb, how can you be causing yourself this much anguish?") and disgust. ("Do you really think denigrating yourself like that is going to win you any favor? Have some self-respect.")
> 
> ...


OP,
This is what causes growth. Until you can genuinely experience this level of pain and disgust you cannot truly empathize with those that do. And to fully appreciate that you are the cause. In reading your earlier posts it was evident that you were still quite pompous about your affair and its affects on YOU. Now, however, you seem to see things differently and may, therefore, be maturing. Pond scum is a good sign.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I just got out of therapy. I know for a fact I have never cried that much in session before. I don't have any more or any better answers. She wasn't able to tell me whether kissing Kay was wrong or not. She wasn't able to tell me whether my husband truly gave his consent or whether he caved out of a desire to please me. She wasn't even able to tell me how much talking about it was too much. All she could tell me was that I clearly prioritized not hurting him over continuing to please myself, and if I keep acting on a desire not to hurt my husband, that would lead to the best outcome.
> 
> I used to really pity wayward spouses who would wax poetic about how awful they are and how much they shattered their betrayed, especially on SurvivingInfidelity. My thoughts toward such spouses veered between sympathy ("you poor lamb, how can you be causing yourself this much anguish?") and disgust. ("Do you really think denigrating yourself like that is going to win you any favor? Have some self-respect.")
> 
> ...


Please take the focus off of you and put it on your marriage. 

Ella, everyone has been telling you this. If you want a good marriage the focus should be on the marriage, not him, and not you. The marriage. You will not be an effective partner if your focus is on the one time you messed up at a party while drunk. He is find, and you probably made a mistake. OK life goes on.

People make mistakes all the time in relationships. You didn't cheat, you were selfish for a very small time in the scope of your marriage. Now you know how hard I am on WS and I AM saying I don't think you cheated. You just messed up. This is pretty common. The good news is something inside you knew right away to stop. That is good and a good sign. Let it go, get over yourself and think about your marriage. Work on creating intimacy with your husband. He needs a wife who is not hyper focused on a dumb mistake she made at a party that he told her he is OK with. 

For as bad as you messed up the other night, I think you have recovered pretty well. It is quite clear you love your husband. But you need to mature a little bit, and not just because of the other night. Part of being mature is not being comfortable all the time, and not freaking out when you are not comfortable. Part of love is trusting when your partner says its OK. This too will pass. Your marriage kid, focus on your marriage.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

I think she loves herself much more than him.

ETA: you got the “kid” part right. 

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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I'm crying again. I don't know if love, or life, or anything at all, is worth the effort it seems to take. I just looked it up, and the cost of circumcision is like $3000. We don't have $3000, and he has terrible insurance with a $5000 deductible.

I guess I'll have to call the insurance company tomorrow and ask about how much it's likely to cost.

Just one more thing I'll have to call them for. I've been making about 5 phone calls a week to insurance companies and doctors and specialists on his behalf, trying to prod these idiots to MOVE FASTER AND SORT OUR LIVES OUT FOR GODS SAKE and I've been donating plasma twice a week hoping the meager amount I earn will be enough to help offset the costs of his CPAP machine, if nothing else. And now this is just one more thing I have to get through, one more reason to call people, one more reason to worry about money. When I told Mr. S about what I'd just discovered, he seemed grumpy. He roughly told me to stop worrying about it. Sure, whatever. Like I even know how to do that. 

I never signed up for life to be this complicated. Or any level of complicated at all. 

Then again, I know my vows say "in sickness and in health" and I guess I actually, technically and literally, did sign up for it. Besides, if I weren't married, things would be even worse in terms of financial capacity and quality of life, because I'd become homeless and drop dead shortly after my parents died, which puts my life expectancy at about 35 or 40.

But knowing that all of this is something I have to do, just like everyone else, doesn't make my indignation about the complex misery that is existing as an adult human being any less awful. I hate being alive and having to worry about my safety, and my husband's health. I hate making phone calls. I hate everything not just being resolved for me like it was when I was a child. I know this sounds like a temper tantrum or something. Maybe it is. But I'm genuinely emotionally distraught here. 

I understand that having to take care of the problems that arise in my life is my birthright as a human being. I understand that other people have health issues too, have bills too. People total their cars, experience natural disasters, have aging parents, have kids to care for, have stressful jobs. Sometimes all at the same time. I know other people can easily handle situations like mine and I really don't have a lot of responsibility compared to other people. I know I'm supposed to be grateful my workload isn't as bad as everyone else's.

But you know what? I'm not grateful. Because it still feels like it's much too much for me. It makes me feel overwhelmed and angry and unable to cope. I still hate it. 

I hate life. I hate work. I hate complication. I hate having been born. I hate being a person. I hate everything.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You're worrying about details. 

As a parent, I would be a lot more worried if my child only had access to a health insurance policy with a $5k deductible.

Given both your perceived and actual health issues, I'd be looking to advance my work situation to not have such roadblocks to deal with.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I don't have a 5k deductible, he does. Currently I'm still on my parents' exorbitant health care plan. He gets his insurance from his work.

On a more "wise mind" sort of note, I suppose I am theoretically capable of adapting to my current (sub)standard of living. When I was eight, I felt a very similar anger and frustration and sense of fundamental unfairness when I had to make my own bed in the morning. Now, I actually really enjoy making the beds. I guess I learned to like it due to a combination of time, repeated exposure, and learning to find a sort of contentment in having the ability to solve the problem (of a messy bed) myself. Maybe I can do the same thing with his health issues. Emotionally, I seriously doubt it, but rationally, I suppose it is technically within the realm of possibility.

Maybe someday I'll learn to be okay with the hand I've been dealt. But right now I'm furious and indignant.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

But, here's how a card carrying BPD deals with worry.

Next 2 days we're getting our roof reshingled. Means a dozen people will be hammering and nailing. The foreman told us to remove pictures and wall hangings on the outside walls in case vibration drops them.

Wife's interpretation: the Syrians are going to fire multiple artillery rounds to our house. So she spent the evening laying down blankets over the wood floor in case the ceiling fans or chandeliers fall down 🤣


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> I mean no disrespect here and I’m not trying to be unkind.
> Do you not think you have had enough problems in your life without bringing more in?
> I will be honest here and say if I was your husband I would have left you with your new crush and gone home.
> Stop drinking,you can’t handle it.
> ...



This pretty much sums it up and yes, you broke your marriage vows. What a great wife you are.....why did you even get married?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

CuddleBug said:


> This pretty much sums it up and yes, you broke your marriage vows. What a great wife you are.....why did you even get married?


If you really want to know, I got married so I'd always have someone to protect me from life.

I was constantly ill as a child. I don't remember much of my adolescence. I know that I was traumatized by a surgery at the age of 10 or 11 and was almost feral with severe PTSD-like symptoms for several years afterwards. I met my now-husband at the age of 15, just after I had begun to regain my memory and cognition post-surgery. I fell for him quickly.

I married for love, first and foremost, and then security. I loved him dearly, to whatever extent someone as fear-driven and immature as myself is capable of loving. I still do. I was also infatuated beyond belief at his intelligence, impeccable manners, sense of humor, and various incredible talents. I still am. He is a competent and strong provider, a genius, and incredibly charming. He is kind, giving, and gentle, and somehow he thinks the world of me even though you and I and everyone here know I am not worthy of such a love. I married for that love, but I was also aware, at seventeen and eighteen, of an almost medieval transaction taking place.

I married at 18, as a sickly and disabled and mentally ill girl, stunted in emotional maturity by about 5 years--if not much more-- to guarantee my safety once my parents, who are already in their sixties, grow too old to care for me. I was taken by the romantic idea of an older man locking me away in a metaphorical tower, keeping me on a pedestal and safe, utterly safe, from the world forever. In return, I was happy and eager to provide him with unlimited sex, affection, and love. 

I was warned once, in premarital counseling, that this wasn't going to be the case all the time. That someday I might have to provide for him in a way that didn't involve my womanly charms. I remember in that moment I burst into tears at the mere _concept_ of having to be responsible for myself and others sometimes. Three months after the wedding, I developed Major Depressive Disorder and I really don't think it was a coincidence that the onset of my depression coincided with my very first minuscule taste of adult life.

I have-- very, very slowly-- become more capable as the years have passed. I have become okay with the idea of having a job in the future, and will actively look for one when I graduate. Two years ago, I would never, ever have agreed to that, because the idea of having a job terrifies me. I can take care of myself when I'm ill, and did that just the other day, whereas five years ago I recall I could never have mustered the fortitude. 

But any progress has not happened quickly enough. Life gets harder far faster than I can learn to cope. The slightest change to my routine, the slightest problem or setback which I am required to face, sends me reeling in abject despair. I wish I were exaggerating but I'm not. I once cried for three weeks straight when my debit card was stolen, even though the thief barely spent any money. Because it was a problem that I was required to do something to solve, and that, as a concept, always terrifies and overwhelms me. I cried about it every day until the money was finally returned and I was issued a new debit card. I made the appropriate phone calls and handled it almost entirely on my own, but I feared and resented every minute of it.

I'd literally rather eat fifty live slugs than be faced with having to support myself in all but the most basic manner. And even then, I only learned the very basics of preventative-self-care-so-I-can-go-up-to-three-days-at-a-time-without-total-psychological-collapse at the age of 21, after an extended hospitalization.

Security has become more and more important as time has gone on and I've grown older. My parents are retiring. They will not be able to afford-- physically or financially-- to be my caretakers. At the same time, my husband is no longer solely my caretaker, guardian, and lover. At this particular moment, he is also someone for whom I must provide-- albeit in a tiny, tiny way compared to the way in which he provides for me-- and it's stressing me out beyond description. 

I talked it out in therapy, and my therapist and I don't think the kiss had anything to do with any of that stress, but... you wanted to know why I'm married. There it is.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I'm crying again. I don't know if love, or life, or anything at all, is worth the effort it seems to take. I just looked it up, and the cost of circumcision is like $3000. We don't have $3000, and he has terrible insurance with a $5000 deductible.



Could he not convert to Judaism and get it for free or something?
I’m not trying to be funny, I think the health system is pretty appalling in the US. Access to healthcare should be every human’s basic right who live in a civilised country.

Really, stop beating yourself up. Try to put this behind you. Seriously, nothing terrible happened. Your husband is perfectly fine about it. Trust him. Trust yourself.
Shrinks never tell you what to do. They want you to come up with a plan yourself through asking probing questions.
If you want my advise: don’t be in touch with the Kay person. Focus on yourself, your marriage and make sure everyone has good insurance cover!
Btw, Why is your husband not bothered about his penis issue? Why do you take it onto yourself to sort it out?



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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Ella, one day at a time. You vented, good, now start moving forward again. In the end you must realize that even if you don't like it and fight against it you are really responsible for you. The idea that someone is always going to be there to take care of you is a facade. You are moving forward though even if it is painful and slow. For instance you are eventually going to work, you are going to eventually have be an adult, cry, scream hate it if you want but it's still going to happen. You can go outside and yell and scream at the rain, but it's still going to rain. And life goes on.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> If you really want to know, I got married so I'd always have someone to protect me from life.
> 
> I was constantly ill as a child. I don't remember much of my adolescence. I know that I was traumatized by a surgery at the age of 10 or 11 and was almost feral with severe PTSD-like symptoms for several years afterwards. *I met my now-husband at the age of 15, just after I had begun to regain my memory and cognition post-surgery. I fell for him quickly.*
> 
> ...


So your husband was 28 and you were 15 when you met? No doubt there's a major father-daughter type relationship going on here. THat's why you are having such a hard time. You think you've disappointed "dad". You're worried now about "dad" getting tired of your misbehavior and leaving.
My take: THere's no way in hades that he will leave you. It's not even in him to leave.
You simply are going to have to NOT take advantage of that, because with your health issues you need him. (sounds like you know that).
I really think you'd be better off just letting this thing go. Kissing the person with his permission was a drunken, stupid mistake. That's all. I think he sees that. He can tell by your obsessive behavior that you're sorry about it and worried. 
Just LET IT GO. Nothing more to do here. It's in the past. All you can do is try to control your urges to have sex with other women. He's not wanting to get a circumcision, anyway, or he'd already done it. I'd think if the Dr. says it's necessary for his health (and it really is, if he is not having a normal sex life because of it), the insurance company would be forced to pay most of the cost.

Anyway, I urge you to put this behind you. What you've done in a drunken, drug induced state is in this case not that big of a deal in my mind because it was out in the open (you even had permission, albeit under duress), and your husband is likely confident you're not going to make a habit of this behavior. Stop beating a dead horse. This one is really dead.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

If a man who had more wealth and could guarantee that he could keep you wrapped in security and safety for the rest of your life showed interest in you, would you allow that man to get closer to you or reject the possibility entirely, or somewhere in between the two extremes?

If your life with your husband should become more stressful, would you be open to finding another more financially suited protector to take his place?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

TDSC60 said:


> If a man who had more wealth and could guarantee that he could keep you wrapped in security and safety for the rest of your life showed interest in you, would you allow that man to get closer to you or reject the possibility entirely, or somewhere in between the two extremes?
> 
> If your life with your husband should become more stressful, would you be open to finding another more financially suited protector to take his place?




Or HER place


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

TDSC60 said:


> If a man who had more wealth and could guarantee that he could keep you wrapped in security and safety for the rest of your life showed interest in you, would you allow that man to get closer to you or reject the possibility entirely, or somewhere in between the two extremes?
> 
> If your life with your husband should become more stressful, would you be open to finding another more financially suited protector to take his place?


On one hand, when things get hard for me, my flight instinct kicks in and my only desire is to escape by any means necessary. Suicide is usually the first option I think of, but thoughts of "escape" might also include living with someone else, anyone else at all. When we first suspected sleep apnea, I ran through a mental list of everyone I could theoretically live with if he died. All the options were very bleak, for the record.

This is because a less primal part of my has already learned from my affair in 2014 that escape can be worse than that from which I'm escaping. The grass is not greener. The last man who said he was rich and capable and would rescue me also turned out to be abusive, and I was summarily institutionalized because of it. I would consider leaving with this hypothetical savior, but decide against it because I have learned to be wary of anyone who claims they can rescue me from the responsibility of being alive.

This, of course, doesn't even factor in emotional concepts, such as the fact that I actually don't _want_ to leave him because I _love_ him, even if I don't feel 100% safe with him, 100% of the time. Thoughts like this, while true, are a very distant afterthought for me for some reason. Right now, as it has been for a couple months, love and affection come in second to safety. Something, something, hierarchy of needs. Of course I still show my husband as much affection as I can. I do not snap at him. I do not take my anger at the world and fear of responsibility out on him. I try to be gentle, kind and as loving as I can manage. But I am not enamored with him or anyone right now because I am too busy crying all the bloody time and being scared and making phone calls and being overwhelmed. 

Even if the actual, literal Prince Charming from the stories were to come riding out on a white horse in full silver armor, and offer to take me away to live in a palace, I would only look at the practical aspects of living with him. I wouldn't fall in love with him. I wouldn't grieve my husband if I left to run away with Prince Charming. There's no room in my heart for affection right now, or any emotions except fear and overwhelm. I wouldn't be able to process feelings like love, infatuation, or grief until several months after my financial security was firmly established and guaranteed.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

What you thought as a child of 15 is one thing but as an adult you know there are no guarantees in life about anything -- let alone that someone is likely going to be around to take care of you forever. Things happen.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Openminded said:


> What you thought as a child of 15 is one thing but as an adult you know there are no guarantees in life about anything -- let alone that someone is likely going to be around to take care of you forever. Things happen.


And it's positively unbearable. 

How can anyone live like this, let alone _everyone_?


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## LaReine (Aug 14, 2017)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> And it's positively unbearable.
> 
> 
> 
> How can anyone live like this, let alone _everyone_?




You make your own guarantees, your own safety. You equip yourself with all the skills you need to manage alone, so that if it happens you can do it.

*general you


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> And it's positively unbearable.
> 
> How can anyone live like this, let alone _everyone_?


One day at a time.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> On one hand, when things get hard for me, my flight instinct kicks in and my only desire is to escape by any means necessary. Suicide is usually the first option I think of, but thoughts of "escape" might also include living with someone else, anyone else at all. When we first suspected sleep apnea, I ran through a mental list of everyone I could theoretically live with if he died. All the options were very bleak, for the record.
> 
> This is because a less primal part of my has already learned from my affair in 2014 that escape can be worse than that from which I'm escaping. The grass is not greener. The last man who said he was rich and capable and would rescue me also turned out to be abusive, and I was summarily institutionalized because of it. I would consider leaving with this hypothetical savior, but decide against it because I have learned to be wary of anyone who claims they can rescue me from the responsibility of being alive.
> 
> ...


Frankly I don't think you feel a lot differently then a lot of women. You just say it out loud.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> And it's positively unbearable.
> 
> How can anyone live like this, let alone _everyone_?


Because it's just the reality of life.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

​


Openminded said:


> Because it's just the reality of life.


Yes, it is. However on the bright side: there is also no after life (probably. At least there is no indication that there is).

But seriously: you must find ways to become self-sufficient, emotionally as well as financially. If you plan to rely your whole life on somebody else, you set yourself up for a disappointment.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> ​
> Yes, it is. However on the bright side: there is also no after life (probably. At least there is no indication that there is).
> 
> But seriously: you must find ways to become self-sufficient, emotionally as well as financially. If you plan to rely your whole life on somebody else, you set yourself up for a disappointment.



I'm working on it in therapy, although again, progress is slow.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Ella I think your doing really great. I think the more you grow and become self sufficient the happy you will become as well. You have come a long way.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You need to reign in emotions. Easier said than done, I know. Find a release. I think I mentioned DD1 and her very similar ways of thinking. We dropped her off in a relatively remote college town in Aug 2015 and she was literally crying. She would be separated from her millionaire bae of 5 years, in a place she knew nobody, first job ever, and a demanding kitten.

By October millionaire bae and her had parted ways, and she met a normal income  guy same major and year as her. They've been together since. He takes care of her in a sense, and handles her emotions very well. He's the archetypal nice guy / straight arrow type. He's the Mr Spock to her Drama Queen persona. 

But she has also grown of her own accord. She had to face challenges and worked hard to overcome them. 

I'm proud of both of them and hopefully we'll be seeing nuptials in the near future. 

You need to challenge yourself. Take harder classes, do more challenging things... Mr. S will be there for you. Baby steps are the way to success. 

It worked for me too.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

john117 said:


> You need to challenge yourself. Take harder classes, do more challenging things... Mr. S will be there for you. Baby steps are the way to success.
> 
> It worked for me too.


But I'm already challenged-- too challenged, in fact! My entire life lately has been out of my comfort zone. Observe:

I missed the entire last week of school due to illness, and I had to take care of myself since my parents have moved an hour away. (though I found out later I didn't have to; I only thought I did. My mother called and told me next time I get so sick, to call her and she'll drive over.)

I now have a paper and several poems due next week that I was supposed to work on this week but couldn't due to the aforementioned illness so this entire weekend is going to be crunch time.

I've spent an average of two hours A DAY on the phone with my husband's insurance company, his GP, and the Sleep Study Center, and somehow someone dropped the ball when corresponding back and forth, and it translates to us STILL not knowing when or where or even IF he will ever have a sleep study done.

I've had to go out twice a week to _make my own money_ and I don't even get to keep it. I'm essentially buying a shot at health for my husband, and while it's obviously a worthwhile purchase, I resent having to do it. I'm not resentful of my husband because it's not his fault, but I find myself thinking _I didn't ask to be born_ a lot. I never, ever thought in a million years I'd _ever_ have to financially support anyone. Not even myself. It's not okay that I have been landed with all of this.

Even after all this sleep apnea nightmare is resolved (assuming it ever is), I'll have to do probably the same thing with all the phone calls, to try to get my husband circumcised, and even then, according to what I've read on the internet, it may not improve our sex life or his sensitivity at all. In fact, it may make it worse! I don't know anything at this point!

Just typing this all out is making me cry again. People don't seem to understand how terrible and complicated my life feels to me! I've been in tears on and off all day because of all of this! I don't even think I cried this much when he had a parathyroid tumor 5 years ago. Probably because I didn't take it upon myself to call any medical companies or to foot the bill in any manner. I wonder how and why I got landed with all this _HORRIBLE_ responsibility this time, where I didn't before. Was I foolhardy enough to offer? I can't remember but I must have been. It's so overwhelming that all I do when I have a moment alone is cry.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Does Mr. S work? It's pointless trying to earn just a little and delay your own college progress. 

You address issues one at a time. He can spend time to chase down insurance companies and such. Your first obligation is to yourself. 

Thing long term. In 1982 I chose a field most people could not spell. I did not think short term. It was long term. 10 years. And when it got pointless I adjusted again. 

The other thing is this. You're running against human nature. If you call doctors office and insurance etc for long time repeatedly, chances are they aren't going to budge. It's a fact of life. They have more patience.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

john117 said:


> Does Mr. S work? It's pointless trying to earn just a little and delay your own college progress.
> 
> You address issues one at a time. He can spend time to chase down insurance companies and such. Your first obligation is to yourself.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this.

Yes, he works. He has a full time job, 40 hours a week with an hour commute each way, and a side job designing video games, where he earns a few thousand dollars' commission every 6 months or so. 

My meager earnings total $70 a week and were supposed to be used on whatever luxuries I desired. But I asked my husband once if I should use them instead to help him, thinking he would see my concern and my politeness for what it was and say no, but he said yes and for now I'm stuck with it. 

Though we have no more or less in our checking and savings than we've always had, I suppose if he had to wound his pride enough to accept _my_ help, he's _very_ desperate indeed, so I can't go back on my offer, and I'll probably even be obligated to ask him if he needs me to give him my earnings for the upcoming treatments once the sleep apnea is resolved.

You really think my prodding is useless? Or will it hurt more than it helps? In the latter case, I'll free myself from it and stop.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> If you really want to know, I got married so I'd always have someone to protect me from life.
> 
> I was constantly ill as a child. I don't remember much of my adolescence. I know that I was traumatized by a surgery at the age of 10 or 11 and was almost feral with severe PTSD-like symptoms for several years afterwards. I met my now-husband at the age of 15, just after I had begun to regain my memory and cognition post-surgery. I fell for him quickly.
> 
> ...




Thanks for enlightening us all. Very personal I know but thanks.


Everything you've posted still has nothing to do with being a good and faithful wife.


You chose to marry this guy. Marriage vows, better or worse, sickness and in health, richer and poorer, etc, etc, etc.


When you decide to get married, all the parting and messing around stops.


Drinking, drugs and messing around while you're married is ridiculous.


The above quote does sum it all up nicely.


Stop all of this 100% and respect your hubby and marriage or get divorced and be single again.


I would not put up with Mrs.CuddleBug doing the stuff you are doing = she stops or divorced.


Myself, I have done none of what you have been doing while married to her either.


If I would of got drunk, did drugs and made out with a guy at the party, Mrs.CuddleBug would not say, you guys have fun, leave us alone and everything is cool. She would leave, get her things and divorce me fast. Obviously.


We all have bad past relationships and trauma but that still has nothing to do with how we chose to live our lives.


Moral free will and choice in the end......


Now you have a choice to make. Either stop all this now or continue this with excuses and wind up cheated on or divorced.


I do wish you and your hubby the best but its time to woman up. Cheers.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

CuddleBug said:


> Thanks for enlightening us all. Very personal I know but thanks.
> 
> 
> Everything you've posted still has nothing to do with being a good and faithful wife.
> ...


I suppose so. I have never gone to a party without him, nor would I want to. He's taken me clubbing a few times. Sometimes, it was my idea. Most of the time, it was his. I believe he was happy to give me a taste of the wild party life because I spent my teenage years an invalid, and immediately went from sickly child to wife. I never had experimentative years to speak of. I had never been to a club or a house party as a teenager. I'd never even crossed a street alone until my twenties! I nearly got hit by a car, too, because I didn't quite get how crossing lights worked. Still, I know now from his reaction to the kiss that I pushed it too far this time, and won't be making this mistake again.


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## LaReine (Aug 14, 2017)

You never thought you'd have to financially support yourself?

My 11 year old knows she will have to do this?!!


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

LaReine said:


> You never thought you'd have to financially support yourself?
> 
> My 11 year old knows she will have to do this?!!
> 
> ...


Until the age of about 21 or so, I sort of assumed I'd die before the age of 25. I was always, always physically sick as a child, and as a teenager, I was always both physically and mentally sick. And my family never really knew how independent I'd be able to be. Therefore I was never really prepared to live life in the way that most people would. 

When my then-husband-to-be met my parents, they sat him down and told him that he would have to be my caretaker for the rest of his life, and that I wasn't exactly a normal person who knew anything about life. According to my mother, he said, "I'll teach her" and that was how she knew I'd found The One for me. 

As a young adult, I was encouraged to go to college because I enjoyed school, not because of my future. 

Even now, my therapist and I still don't know to what extent I will ever be able to be independent. The likely scenario that we're looking at right now, balancing optimism with realism, is that I will graduate within a couple years, and get a part-time job which may or may not be related to my degree.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Ella I think your doing really great. I think the more you grow and become self sufficient the happy you will become as well. You have come a long way.


I keep going back to this comment trying to figure it out. I appreciate the compliment, but in all candor, I am not doing great. Nothing close. This is not what improvement looks like. I'm clearly not happier than I was, say, last month. All I am is very stressed and word-vomiting to the internet. Nothing has changed for the better, nothing at all. How can you equate what is very obviously a sort of downfall to "coming a long way" or "doing great"?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I keep going back to this comment trying to figure it out. I appreciate the compliment, but in all candor, I am not doing great. Nothing close. This is not what improvement looks like. I'm clearly not happier than I was, say, last month. All I am is very stressed and word-vomiting to the internet. Nothing has changed for the better, nothing at all. How can you equate what is very obviously a sort of downfall to "coming a long way" or "doing great"?




You are just a bit overwhelmed with everything. It will pass. Make a list of tasks, in prioritised order, tick them off one by one, you will feel better. Try not to make out with girls in the meantime  
Everyone often feels like this. None of us asked to be born but there are things to be grateful for: you have a loving husband and a home. Many people don’t have it.
Part of growing up.


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## dianaelaine59 (Aug 15, 2016)

Ella, may I respectfully ask how bad your cerebral palsy is?

Are you on disability or SSI? 

Are you able to walk on your own?

If you'd prefer to answer these questions in private, that's fine. 


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

It must be totally exhausting- being Ella.
Not to mention the husband. However- this thread has quite the attention being paid to it and the OP.

Ella- you are a gifted writer- why not spend your time writing a book?

Rather than take random pills, kiss random women that you do not think are attractive and torment your husband in every which way possible-the poor guy is a Ella lab experiment at this point.

Write a book. Get it published.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> But I'm already challenged-- too challenged, in fact! My entire life lately has been out of my comfort zone. Observe:
> 
> I missed the entire last week of school due to illness, and I had to take care of myself since my parents have moved an hour away. (though I found out later I didn't have to; I only thought I did. My mother called and told me next time I get so sick, to call her and she'll drive over.)
> 
> ...




Ok so I am emotional and irrational at times too. But you need to understand that how you FEEL and the reality are two different things and you need to practice reorienting yourself to the reality even when you feel emotional. Does that make sense? 

Think about the reality... 
life isn't fair. Things don't always go as we want. At the end of the day we have to take care of ourselves. You don't NEED someone to take care of you when your sick, you want someone to etc.

You can't live a life feeling and actually believing that you are entitled... entitled to be taken care of, entitled to never having to work hard and make your own money. That is not reality. No one asked to be born but we are here. And a lot of people have it worse off than others. 

People with low self esteem should write down positive things about themselves and say them over and over to themselves everyday. Entitled people like you who struggle with reality vs how things should be should do the same... write down and repeat this everyday... I am responsible for myself. I have to take care of myself. No one is going to save me. Life isn't fair, and that's ok.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Until the age of about 21 or so, I sort of assumed I'd die before the age of 25. I was always, always physically sick as a child, and as a teenager, I was always both physically and mentally sick. And my family never really knew how independent I'd be able to be. Therefore I was never really prepared to live life in the way that most people would.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You are a normal person. There are plenty of people with mental problems and disabilities that work and take care of themselves. This whole fairytale crap that your parents fed you is not reality. 
You need to take care of yourself. You need to really understand this because it isn't your husbands job or your parents job to take care of you. You need to come to grips with this.

Also what worries me more is... not only do I think it's the worst thing to put everything into this man, and completely depend on him (this is a huge issue for many many reasons), but you are prone to acting selfishly by cheating on him and having affairs. This is so dumb and irresponsible of you who literally completely depends on him. It doesn't make sense at all to me. You are sabotaging your life. Honestly, if you keep up this behavior your future life doesn't look good at all.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Improvement is one day at a time.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I can't handle any more. Our car broke down just now. We have a flat tire and somewhere along the front of the car is dripping unidentified liquid. So he's going to have to pay for a new tire, and probably to repair whatever's dripping too. Gods only know how much that will cost.

Meanwhile, I need new clothes and so does he. He needs to save his money and his savings account and his HSA for things like surgeries and sleep studies. I'm willing to spend the _very last_ of my personal money buying him new clothes, but then that won't leave any for me, which is fine I guess. 

Except it's not fine. Except nothing is fine at all. Things keep happening and they don't stop happening and I've already broken down in tears four times today. I'm so tired of being angry and upset and worried and exasperated. I cried, full-on sobbing, in the middle of the mall because I just can't handle any more. I swear if one more tiny thing goes wrong at all I might actually go crazy!!

I am so utterly exhausted with any kind of responsibility at all and I would do anything-- _anything!!_-- to get away from it.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

dianaelaine59 said:


> Ella, may I respectfully ask how bad your cerebral palsy is?
> 
> Are you on disability or SSI?
> 
> ...


1) No. I wish I were. I applied but they rejected me because my husband makes too much money. Of course, too much is apparently still not enough to stop me becoming stressed when anything happens to us.

2) Yes, I can walk unaided. Stairs, not quite. Running, no. But I can walk short distances.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Having to worry about things is part of the growing up process. Dealing with said things too. 

Let's start by looking into what your family income is vs where you live. If Mr. S is a software engineer or other professional, that helps. If he's an assistant manager at a car wash, there's a problem somewhere.

Then look at your costs. Maybe you live in Tennessee where cost is low but jobs don't pay. Move to Atlanta. Things like these. 

Cars, like people, break down. It's how you deal with the things life throws that matter.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Ask yourself if you really need new clothes.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

john117 said:


> Having to worry about things is part of the growing up process. Dealing with said things too.
> 
> Let's start by looking into what your family income is vs where you live. If Mr. S is a software engineer or other professional, that helps. If he's an assistant manager at a car wash, there's a problem somewhere.
> 
> ...


He actually is a software engineer. Sort of. He's a programmer, and a freelance video game designer. We live in a fairly low-cost city in the Midwest. But he only makes about 50K a year, maybe a bit more. It leaves us middle-class. Not great, but good for a couple of millennials, I guess. Things don't cost much in the city where we live. Rent is always low, and up until now, we've managed to stay afloat quite well. Objectively speaking, things are a little worse than they always were, but not much more so.

Maybe the only reason I'm worried about it is because I'm suddenly aware of these things now that my parents are retiring and couldn't theoretically bail us out if we ever needed it.

My husband's gone off getting our tires replaced, and it'll be only $20 per tire. I don't think I trust anybody who's selling tires for $20, but maybe it's because we have insurance or something. I'll ask him when he gets back. What with the things leaking, he says he's due to have the car serviced in a fortnight and he thinks we can hold out til then. I guess that will do. I guess I'm okay. I don't really know.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Ella,

Please do not allow fear to control your life and your actions. You could, as you have already demonstrated, make an incredibly bad decision based on fear.

Maybe your counsellor can help with this.


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## growing_weary (Jul 23, 2017)

I think you need to manage how overwhelmed you get at things. Some of the stuff you freak out about is just a tiny slice of life to other people. Perhaps becoming more grounded and secure in yourself might help. The idea that your reality doesn't match up to the expectations/fantasy of being doesn't stop you from making improvements. 

This thread is much too long for you to not have gleaned some modicum of aid and advice. Therefore, if you're still in the same headspace you were at the start, you're the only one who can take the steps forward.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

growing_weary said:


> I think you need to manage how overwhelmed you get at things. Some of the stuff you freak out about is just a tiny slice of life to other people. Perhaps becoming more grounded and secure in yourself might help. The idea that your reality doesn't match up to the expectations/fantasy of being doesn't stop you from making improvements.
> 
> This thread is much too long for you to not have gleaned some modicum of aid and advice. Therefore, if you're still in the same headspace you were at the start, you're the only one who can take the steps forward.


There is not one sentence in this post that I disagree with. I do get far too overwhelmed at things that are just normal life to other people. I do need to change it somehow. I believe I'm trying to develop resilience by purposefully putting myself in situations where I'm forced to develop it, like offering to pay for my husband's CPAP machine. I continue to go to therapy to try and learn how to be less overwhelmed at things.

Yet I remain just as overwhelmed as ever. Two weeks ago my psychiatrist said that my depression was in remission and I was so overjoyed that maybe I might finally be turning a corner. Yet this week, I've cried so much I'm not sure how my body can even produce tears anymore. It always seems to be one step forward and 25 steps back with me and I'm sure it frustrates me at least as much as it does any of you.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Flat tires are totally exhausting.
Overwhelming- it was only one flat tire... Thank Heaven.

You do seem to put quite a bit of effort in your postings-perhaps you should channel your brilliance to a manuscript. 

At any rate- you both have health insurance and can eat. Winning.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

This is America, where health insurance and access to care haven't been synonymous for a while now. 

I work for a large company and our health insurance is awful. And all I have to deal with is routine stuff. If they have one of those health savings account type high deductible plan they're basically uninsured until they meet the deductible. Even after meeting the deductible the 80/20 and copay isn't fun if you have anything but the most basic stuff done.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Yeah- the insurance deal - it sucks - but they have it and are warm and dry. 
I'm concerned about how 2 Flat tires would have ruined the day.
There are 4 tires on a car and all 4 could have blown. Thankfully- only one blew.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I keep going back to this comment trying to figure it out. I appreciate the compliment, but in all candor, I am not doing great. Nothing close. This is not what improvement looks like. I'm clearly not happier than I was, say, last month. All I am is very stressed and word-vomiting to the internet. Nothing has changed for the better, nothing at all. How can you equate what is very obviously a sort of downfall to "coming a long way" or "doing great"?




Life is great then people go through challenges. These challenges are hard but they make us grow and test and build our character. You know this, especially anyone who reads classics. People go through hell and it sucks when they are living in it, but once they are through it they are better and stronger.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Ella this is a random off topic question. You seem to love fairy tales, have you ever read some of the original fairy tales? Like little mermaid for example.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

They aren't warm and dry if they have to pay serious copays and deductibles... If he's making 50k chances are he has Trumpcare style coverage, 3-4k deductible and 80/20 copay and a trifle of company matching HSA they are more or less screwed. 

I've been wearing a thumb splint since spring because with our Trumpcare plan I'm on the hook for $2k copay (20%) for outpatient surgery to fix it. In our PPO plan last time it was $250 copay in 2016.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Oh, regarding dealing with insurance companies... They will lie thru the teeth to avoid paying. Their idea is that a 30 year old has to have 1 3/4 feet in the grave before paying for anything. 

If you want to do a sleep study call the local university that has the capability and see what they charge. When I was in grad school the neuroscience folks who kindly shared the building with us did those and even had related experiments running. Generally speaking the flagship state university with a PhD program in psychology or neuroscience will have it.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Ok-
And how does that relate to affairs, kissing randoms and flat tires?


The state of Obamacare has nothing to do with cheating on your spouse, kissing women who are not attractive and getting flat tires.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

sandcastle said:


> Ok-
> And how does that relate to affairs, kissing randoms and flat tires?
> 
> 
> The state of Obamacare has nothing to do with cheating on your spouse, kissing women who are not attractive and getting flat tires.


The semiprofessional psychologist in me says those are simply manifestations of her insecurities vis a vis her own health issues and the need to have Mr. S around... 

Life is not a series of unrelated events. If Mr. S had Canadian health insurance and making six figures it would not be an issue. Insecurities trigger validation behaviors, etc.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

You win.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I did learn a thing or two from my clinical / behavioral colleagues . Alas, my sleep study expertise is limited to the kind of hangover one experiences based on type of alcohol consumed...

(Riunite is the worst hangover ever, and I've been at it for 45 years)


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

A sleep study records how many times you stop breathing during the night. This puts a small strain on your heart each time it happens. I stopped breathing 11 times during my sleep study. Got a CPAP machine. Used it for 3 months. It makes breathing easier, but is a real pain to wear unless you sleep on your back. The mask you wear is dislodged if you turn on your side.

I stopped wearing it after a visit to my cardiologist. I was talking to him and he said that most of the time sleep apnea is a result of an anatomical structure in your sinuses or throat. That structure will shift position during sleep and block the air passage. Snoring is an indicator. He said that the CPAP machine is good to have, but not essential. If I was having trouble wearing the mask, then I should try one of those anti-snoring strips that are applied to the outside of the nose. They are adhesive and open the nasal passages when applied. For most people, the benefits of the CPAP machine is that they get a more restful night's sleep, which is good for your entire body and mind - heart included. There is also a appliance that you wear in your mouth that is available over the counter. It holds your lower jaw forward to keep it from slipping backward during sleep and blocking the air flow.

I asked if I would have to have another sleep study with the anti-snoring strips attached to see if they work for me. He said if my wife would agree to stay awake for a couple of hours after I went to sleep she could see if I stopped or had trouble breathing - no laboratory sleep study needed.

So if money is the problem, do your own sleep study. Watch your husband while he sleeps for a couple of hours. If he appears to stop breathing for a time (usually indicated by a change in the rhythm followed by a sudden intake of breathe). Then go buy a pack of the anti-snoring strips and see if they help him. 

This is something you can do for your husband that could take a lot of stress off you.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Ella this is a random off topic question. You seem to love fairy tales, have you ever read some of the original fairy tales? Like little mermaid for example.


Yes, I have. They're bloody horrifying. ESPECIALLY The Little Mermaid.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Yes, I have. They're bloody horrifying. ESPECIALLY The Little Mermaid.




Yea I actually really like them. They have actual lessons to learn unlike modern day fairy tales.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Ella, did you ask your husband if you could kiss your gf because you wanted him to show a little emotion and therefore interest in keeping you, or just because you felt loved he kissing another person?

There's been situations where I could have kissed attractive women in the past (rarely, lol) I certainly didn't ask if my SO would mind if I did it. I kind of assumed they'd flip out and not only tell me hell no, but no telling what else they'd do.

Do you think there might be some kind of subconscious need for your husband to demonstrate how much he wants you so you feel less insecure about him leaving you?

I really don't think you could beat him enough to get him to give you up.
Try to feel safe. And try to remember the next time you have an urge, that no matter who it is, touching another person than your husband in an intimate way is soul crushing for him. I know you were drunk and normally would t do this. I'd steer clear of those like you plan on already. 
You need a decent job badly. It would work miracles in your relationship,

Work through the fear. You can if you put your mind to it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I second the strips...

https://youtu.be/77cvSkNKuNo


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I suppose so. I have never gone to a party without him, nor would I want to. He's taken me clubbing a few times. Sometimes, it was my idea. Most of the time, it was his. I believe he was happy to give me a taste of the wild party life because I spent my teenage years an invalid, and immediately went from sickly child to wife. I never had experimentative years to speak of. I had never been to a club or a house party as a teenager. I'd never even crossed a street alone until my twenties! I nearly got hit by a car, too, because I didn't quite get how crossing lights worked. Still, I know now from his reaction to the kiss that I pushed it too far this time, and won't be making this mistake again.



I'm sure everything will work out fine. Wish you both the best.


When I was a teenager and same with Mrs.CuddleBug, we both never did the house parties either. That happened when we were in our college years and single and first started dating. Mrs.CuddleBug never went alone to parties when we first started dating either. She never drove until we got married and mainly took the bus and walked. Now she drives all the time, has her own car and is a good and confident driver. Mrs.CuddleBug got into a car accident a few weeks before our marriage. I made sure she was okay, wrote off her car, she started using the bus and walking and I drove her.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Yea I actually really like them. They have actual lessons to learn unlike modern day fairy tales.


Bluebeard is the worst. I couldn't read it to my daughter...I mean who would come up with a story like this for children?!
Little Mermaid...I tell the ending differently


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Bluebeard is the worst. I couldn't read it to my daughter...I mean who would come up with a story like this for children?!
> 
> Little Mermaid...I tell the ending differently




The moral of the story shouldn't always been your pretty and some guy will save you and life will go smoothly forever. That's my problem with those fairytales.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> The moral of the story shouldn't always been your pretty and some guy will save you and life will go smoothly forever. That's my problem with those fairytales.




In my stories it’s usually the woman who saves the man. Mostly from himself!


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> Yea I actually really like them. They have actual lessons to learn unlike modern day fairy tales.


When I was maaaaaybe 8, my grandparents gave me a big, thick book of Hans Christian Andersen fairy tales. These were the real deal to the Disney-fied versions which were churning out at the time...not sure if their intention was to counteract that, or just cultivate my love of reading in general? Dark, scary stuff for an 8 year old. Flashlight in hand, I read that thing every night for years. God knows the damage, or development, that did lol

Passed it on to my own daughter (not at 8) she loved it too. Somehow it was lost. We're still trying to find that book...


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*You may not have broken your marital vows, but your actions clearly didn’t do his conscience much good!*


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> It's very hard to figure out, for us, where and when to stop the conversation. And everyone on TAM has a different opinion on how much or how little talking is appropriate or safe. So I have to decide on my own.
> More later...


Ella, it is not the talk that is bad.
It is the actions.

You kissed another person in front of your husband, and in front of many people at that party.
You wanted to do this and you did it. Alcohol lowered your Stop Sign, but not your intent.
You need to find out who you really are.

I know, I know, we all have different views on a whole number of things.

Do you want to expand your relationship, somehow?
Kissing a man would obviously be a disaster.
Kissing a women was a safer bet.

You are hungry for something.
Something that spells trouble.

Maybe as @Blondilocks said, making drama for yourself so that you can come to TAM to talk about it.

It is easier, and 'better' to talk about someone Else's problems than to talk about your own'. That is what most posters do 'here'.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Don't Panic said:


> When I was maaaaaybe 8, my grandparents gave me a big, thick book of Hans Christian Andersen fairy tales. These were the real deal to the Disney-fied versions which were churning out at the time...not sure if their intention was to counteract that, or just cultivate my love of reading in general? Dark, scary stuff for an 8 year old. Flashlight in hand, I read that thing every night for years. God knows the damage, or development, that did lol
> 
> 
> 
> Passed it on to my own daughter (not at 8) she loved it too. Somehow it was lost. We're still trying to find that book...




Have you looked in the basement? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> Ella, it is not the talk that is bad.
> It is the actions.
> 
> You kissed another person in front of your husband, and in front of many people at that party.
> ...


I've known I'm bi for a long time. I've been curious about what it's like to kiss and make love to a woman ever since then.

I think a part of me _thought_ I wanted to expand or open my relationship to a woman, for experience's sake, but one look at Kit's reaction told me I should never do that again.

What I hunger for at any given time is so very volatile, and usually, when I'm sober, I know what that thing is. It can change from day to day, sometimes even hour to hour. Kissing Kay was not merely my deep dark suppressed desire that came roaring out uncontrolled. It is one of several desires which all vary in intensity depending upon my mood. 

Hand to gods, I don't want to have sex with a woman _all the time. _ Just sometimes. Sometimes, what I crave more than breath itself is my husband, his love and closeness. Our marriage thrives during those times and I wish they lasted forever. Sometimes what I crave is for the world and responsibility to go away so I can feel safe again. Sometimes what I crave is close friendship and empathy. Sometimes I crave self-care. Sometimes I crave self-harm. Sometimes, I crave sex, or at least the idea of sex. It could be, depending on my mood and other random factors, men or women I fantasize about. Often, it's my husband.

The best thing I can do, as DBT has taught me, is to understand and acknowledge what it is that I want, and if I want something dangerous, wait it out with the expectation that the want will go away and I'll want something different later. It's much the same with my emotions, which are just as off-kilter and have just as much potential for doing damage.


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## Tortdog (May 2, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> This is very, very hard for me to type out.
> 
> My husband and I were at a party. We'd both been invited to said party by a new friend from my writing class. Her name was Kay. Kay, I should mention, isn't the most attractive woman in the world. I had never felt any kind of attraction to her outside of this party.
> 
> ...


You asked. He said yes. It ended. Besides which you were likely not with full capacity. Let it go. 

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## Tortdog (May 2, 2016)

Evinrude58 said:


> I think my response, upon hearing of your request, would have been to look for the hottest woman in the room and say, "sure honey, kiss away. I'm heading over here. Is it ok for me to kiss HER?"
> 
> Yes ur husband is ok with it. He doesn't sound upset. No harm, no foul.
> But my personal opinion is that what you asked him was really, really wrong. It would have made me sick at my stomach. What you did, kissing another PERSON than me passionately (your description), was just wrong and totally against traditional vows (forsaking all others, keeping ourselves only for one another).
> ...


I'm not getting that it would be a surprise that a person may be sexually attracted to someone other than the spouse. I would presume that most people feel that but they do not dwell on it. In this case, she was not sexually attracted but sounds like a curiosity so the presumption would have been wrong. 

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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I've known I'm bi for a long time. I've been curious about what it's like to kiss and make love to a woman ever since then.
> 
> I think a part of me _thought_ I wanted to expand or open my relationship to a woman, for experience's sake, but one look at Kit's reaction told me I should never do that again.
> 
> ...


You are an honest person.
You are an honest person who is also....betrothed.

Your husband is a nice man.
Your husband is an enabler, by default.

If you slip up, what, a third time?

I blame him.

You need to be held tight.
Very, very tight.

Against your will.
Against his 'won't.

His won't let it happen.
He needs to be your' husband.
He needs to be your only lover.

And, I guess, he needs to be your Father.
And, I guess, he needs to ground you.

Hold you to reality.
Hold you....against your will.

That will, should remain...will not.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Tortdog said:


> In this case, she was not sexually attracted but sounds like a curiosity so the presumption would have been wrong.


Ya I know. Many times in the past I had these chicks riding me like they were a jockey at the Kentucky derby. I wasn't sexual attraction. It was mere curiosity.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

I don't think anyone that I know expects marriage to magically make sexual attraction to other people disappear.

All folks that I know think that sexual attraction and sexual thoughts about people other than your spouse is understandable - even normal.

What crosses the line is when that attraction becomes an obsession or a spouse acts on it and allows a third person to enter the marriage.


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## Osito79 (Oct 22, 2017)

My wife did almost exactly the same thing on a business trip with a lesbian coworker, and said it was just a kiss and didnt mean anything, she confessed it to me via text, lol thru a text.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Osito79 said:


> My wife did almost exactly the same thing on a business trip with a lesbian coworker, and said it was just a kiss and didnt mean anything, she confessed it to me via text, lol thru a text.


How did you feel about it?

My husband and I seem to be getting on very well two weeks out. I tell him I think our marriage is mostly great, and he agrees and says he loves me very much. I don't want him to suppress his feelings, but I'm no longer sure he has any ill feelings to suppress.


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## SoFlaGuy (Nov 28, 2014)

Osito79 said:


> My wife did almost exactly the same thing on a business trip with a lesbian coworker, and said it was just a kiss and didnt mean anything, she confessed it to me via text, lol thru a text.



Everyone has their own boundaries, my wife had admitted to some openness about kissing, maybe more with a woman but had never acted on it, I told her I was OK with it as long as I was there. I didn't think it would be appropriate if I wasn't present....but that's just me.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I do wish the best for both you and your husband. I know you two are unconventional.

I want to add my observation.

Please note my wife is bisexual. She had all knowledge of it beaten out of her brutally during conversion therapy in 1967, so she has issues. She recovered stolen memories after 8 years of therapy in 1992. 

That’s why she was unaware she was bisexual when we got married.

Now, had I known in 1972 what I know now about sexual orientations I would have recognized Mary was bisexual even though she didn’t. But in those days we didn’t think about it.

We don’t mean this as a criticism. 

It seems to us you are so mildly bi curious you really shouldn’t consider yourself bisexual at all. This goes against all the LGBT rules of let anyone be anything, yes. I only mention it in case it somehow helps set your mind at ease.

Under the circumstances you described Mary probably would have had the woman naked on the floor in seconds after their lips touched. Alcohol lowers inhibitions. The only thing that keeps us from acting on our desires is our inhibitions. People who think the desires that swirl inside us beneath this veneer of well honed self control...

But I know this about Mary. And I would not have had even one beer. One is too many for the shepherd.

And please, never take pills you don’t know about! 

Anyway. Good luck!


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

WilliamM said:


> I do wish the best for both you and your husband. I know you two are unconventional.
> 
> I want to add my observation.
> 
> ...



i dont know... my wife is FAR more attracted to women than men, but i have seen her freak out a time or two when interacting with women, worrying about how i would react, even though she had a few drinks at the time.

EllaSuaveterre is not in a non-monogamous relationship. she is also BPD, so is likely often worried that she is going to mess up bad enough to lose her husband. i can easily see how the fear of "messing up" could become more powerful than any attraction she felt at the time.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

As'laDain said:


> i dont know... my wife is FAR more attracted to women than men, but i have seen her freak out a time or two when interacting with women, worrying about how i would react, even though she had a few drinks at the time.
> 
> EllaSuaveterre is not in a non-monogamous relationship. she is also BPD, so is likely often worried that she is going to mess up bad enough to lose her husband. i can easily see how the fear of "messing up" could become more powerful than any attraction she felt at the time.


For sure I have no idea how EllaSuaveterre might act under that circumstance. 

My wife mentioned it, and we (My wife and I) know how my wife would act when she gets a bit drunk (If I nod my head, it is full steam ahead with no second thoughts at all.), so I thought I would toss it in. Just in case EllaSuaveterre might feel better in some way if she thinks Mary sees her bi-curious. 

Mary has met a lot of women who are bi-curious. It seems to be a more relaxing state for them.

Just a thought.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

WilliamM said:


> For sure I have no idea how EllaSuaveterre might act under that circumstance.
> 
> My wife mentioned it, and we (My wife and I) know how my wife would act when she gets a bit drunk (*If I nod my head, it is full steam ahead with no second thoughts at all*.), so I thought I would toss it in. Just in case EllaSuaveterre might feel better in some way if she thinks Mary sees her bi-curious.
> 
> ...


lol, thats how my wife is nowadays. took a lot of work and self acceptance to get her to the point where she wouldn't freak herself out though. 

i have always seen bi curious as more or less the same thing as bi, minus the experience. i do agree with you that bi curious seems to be a more relaxing state though. i remember my wife telling me she was bi-curious. she stopped saying that after her drunken ONS with the neighbors wife. interestingly enough, she was mostly worried that i would be disgusted with her or would leave her if i found out just how attracted she is to women.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Mary had some girlfriends who explained bi-curious was a constant state of mind to them. They were bi-curious before they met Mary, and for years afterwards.

I called them pillow princesses. My wife called them delicious, and didn't care at all that they never reciprocated.

I was thinking about the fact my wife is quite submissive, and that also can be a big factor. As soon as I express any opinion my wife is relieved of any responsibility, it is all on me, 100%. My opinion is absolute and final for her, and she never doubts me. Which fits well with the release of self theory of masochism (Dr. Roy F. Baumeister). All I know for sure is as soon as I take control Mary is liberated completely. It's like flipping a switch.

I forgot to consider that before adding Mary's observation, too.


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