# Women not welcome...



## Therealbrighteyes

I have started a new thread here because I refuse to comment on another. Are women not welcome here? 
I thought this was a forum where men could ask questions of other men and women could ask questions of other men. Am I wrong here?
In the Ladies Lounge you have men coming in all the time asking for insight. We don't scare them away. We welcome them and answer with our own opinions. 
So, are ladies welcome in the Men's forum or not? 
:scratchhead:


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## MEM2020

YES you are welcome. 

If someone has a problem with an individual posters tone/comments etc. than the person with the problem should block the offending poster as an individual. But blocks should be based on individual behavior not the presence absence of a penis.....




Brennan said:


> I have started a new thread here because I refuse to comment on another. Are women not welcome here?
> I thought this was a forum where men could ask questions of other men and women could ask questions of other men. Am I wrong here?
> In the Ladies Lounge you have men coming in all the time asking for insight. We don't scare them away. We welcome them and answer with our own opinions.
> So, are ladies welcome in the Men's forum or not?
> :scratchhead:


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## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> YES you are welcome.
> 
> If someone has a problem with an individual posters tone/comments etc. than the person with the problem should block the offending poster as an individual. But blocks should be based on individual behavior not the presence absence of a penis.....


Thank you MEM,

Somebody (not sure who) wrote that they were puzzled that a woman would come here. I come here because if I wanted advice from a woman, I would ask my friends. I also come here because all of my guy friends are lifelong friends of my husband. I can't exactly open up to them and expect it to not be mentioned to him.


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## Deejo

Here is my piece:

We occasionally discuss heavy stuff here. Serious life stuff. I never have an issue with a response as long as the tenor is in line with the thread.

If a post is grossly inappropriate in tone or content, I'll report it. Mods can remove the post, or the poster.

There is a difference between disagreement and debate, and disagreement and misdirection. In other words, the poster isn't interested in discussing the topic - they want to either antagonize the original poster or derail the thread. They don't want to argue a point or perspective - they want to argue to argue.

That kind of behavior is gender non-specific.

I like getting a woman's point of view. I like having women participate in a good number of men's discussions. But if I'm being honest, there is a subject very personal to me that I would like to share and get input regarding, but am reluctant to do so - out of concern for how the thread would be received or treated, particularly by women posters. We share some tough stuff here.

For the most part, TAM contributors are remarkably aware of, and respectful of that fact.

I don't think women in the men's clubhouse is the issue. I do think as long as we are all aware of our own conduct within the context of what an OP is looking for in terms of input or contribution, then the entire TAM community is better served.


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## Atholk

Honesty I don't even look in the forum categories, I just surf on "New Posts" usually.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Here is my piece:
> 
> We occasionally discuss heavy stuff here. Serious life stuff. I never have an issue with a response as long as the tenor is in line with the thread.
> 
> If a post is grossly inappropriate in tone or content, I'll report it. Mods can remove the post, or the poster.
> 
> There is a difference between disagreement and debate, and disagreement and misdirection. In other words, the poster isn't interested in discussing the topic - they want to either antagonize the original poster or derail the thread. They don't want to argue a point or perspective - they want to argue to argue.
> 
> That kind of behavior is gender non-specific.
> 
> I like getting a woman's point of view. I like having women participate in a good number of men's discussions. But if I'm being honest, there is a subject very personal to me that I would like to share and get input regarding, but am reluctant to do so - out of concern for how the thread would be received or treated, particularly by women posters. We share some tough stuff here.
> 
> For the most part, TAM contributors are remarkably aware of, and respectful of that fact.
> 
> I don't think women in the men's clubhouse is the issue. I do think as long as we are all aware of our own conduct within the context of what an OP is looking for in terms of input or contribution, then the entire TAM community is better served.


Deejo,
What are you not sharing and why do you feel that the women here would judge you harshly? I wouldn't. I don't even know you. Wouldn't this forum be the perfect place to get feedback?
I have shared some heavy and frankly scary stuff about myself and about him. I took my lumps, mainly from men and I grow from it. This is a great forum for me to share. Not sure why you are hesitant.


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## WadeWilson

In the clubhouses I assumed everyone was welcom... Both genders need variant opionions and views... But I do however feel it's like this in the ladys clubhouse your gonna get women speak, and some guys can't handle it... In the Mens clubhouse your gonna get guy talk about an issue and some women are too sensitive for that... It's all about how you handle the approach of a subject that differs...


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## greenpearl

What I feel uncomfortable is, 

Sometimes I was trying to give the original poster some advice and some comfort, and somebody else would quote my posts and call me names or call me stupid for doing that. 

I know I have different opinions, I tend to think that women should let men be the head and women should be responsible at home, I tend to point out problems some women have, but it is all random, never directed to anybody. Some women don't like my opinion and they start to call me names or tell me that my posts are offensive. Was I offensive to her? I didn't even know that she would come to the thread and read my posts. Why didn't others get offended? Why could other people control themselves even though they didn't like it?

I felt that they tried to control my speech freedom, hey, the is modern new society, you don't agree with me, at least I have my freedom to speak. 

On this forum, only the moderators and administer should give me warnings about what to say, and I don't think I have ever been rude to anybody. 

TAM already has a very good system, they don't allow name calling or rude insults, or anything inappropriate. 

Now if I don't like a particular person, I just put them on my ignore list, I don't see their posts, so I don't know that I have offended them!


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## F-102

You certainly are welcome, Brennan. If women were excluded from here, and men from the Ladies Lounge, this wouldn't be a forum- it would be a b****fest!


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## SimplyAmorous

It personally wouldn't bother me if women couldn't post in here and men couldn't post in the Ladies Lounge at all - I would not think that is a bad thing if TAM had such rules, but so long as we can still Peek in here & have the "ability" to click the reply button & it still works, I find the temptation to say something too hard to resist- at times.


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## takris

Of course you are welcome, especially if you bring the beer.

What is intuitive to you, but possibly not a one or two others, is that this should not be the place for male gender-based slams. 

On this site, many, both men and women, come here because their spouse is behaving in a way that makes us feel almost powerless to fix, hence the need to vent. Intuitively, I would not go to the Ladies lounge to ventilate about my frustration that my wife has recently gained weight, and looks like her aunt now (ouch). I'm just saying that these gender-based categories serve their purpose in giving us a place to discuss our feelings more openly.

I think the sheer number of replies to your posts here tells you that you are welcome.


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## jamesa

Just one person's opinion Brennan, luckily this forum is fairly democratic.

Seeing as we can't see anyone's genitalia it is a moot point anyway.


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## michzz

Everyone's welcome as long as they're not a d!ck about it in the men's forum.


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## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Deejo,
> What are you not sharing and why do you feel that the women here would judge you harshly? I wouldn't. I don't even know you. Wouldn't this forum be the perfect place to get feedback?
> I have shared some heavy and frankly scary stuff about myself and about him. I took my lumps, mainly from men and I grow from it. This is a great forum for me to share. Not sure why you are hesitant.


Man boobs ...


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## jamesa

Deejo said:


> Man boobs ...


Nothing wrong with moobs deejo, if you shave them closely enough they can be a great masturbation aid.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Man boobs ...


I know you are joking as you have mentioned the impressiveness of your chest in the past.

If you are not, well there is a surgery for that.


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## Deejo

No, I do not have gynecomastia. But it is a real condition, and would certainly bum me out if I did.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> No, I do not have gynecomastia. But it is a real condition, and would certainly bum me out if I did.


So what is it then that you feel us ladies would take issue with if you posted? :scratchhead:


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## Deejo

jamesa said:


> Nothing wrong with moobs deejo, if you shave them closely enough they can be a great masturbation aid.


Sometimes there are no words - just silent, horror.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Thank you all for your responses. As Takris mentioned, there are things posted here that ruffles alot of womens feathers, mine included. From reading here though, I am able to talk better with my husband and have a better understanding of how a man's mind works. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. It just is.


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## chefmaster

Brennan said:


> So what is it then that you feel us ladies would take issue with if you posted? :scratchhead:


IMHO the 1% of things not being talked about in the lounge and clubhouse is well worth keeping the forums honest and on an even keel for the 99% of the things that are discussed.


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## Therealbrighteyes

chefmaster said:


> IMHO the 1% of things not being talked about in the lounge and clubhouse is well worth keeping the forums honest and on an even keel for the 99% of the things that are discussed.


Agreed.


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## Deejo

So I must ask ...

and I will specifically state that my question relates to the discussions of dominance, assertiveness, confidence.

Why do women feel compelled to attack, dismiss or diminish these lines of discussion regarding circumstances that either men want to learn about, or insofar that men highlight that such methods actually work in their Long Term Relationships?

There was a recent thread on the general forum and I simply could not shake the notion that _women_ were rooting for a poster who was simply masquerading antagonism and personal attacks as presumptive insight and fact? 

Anyone care to have that discussion? 

I don't think the details of the thread are as important as addressing the notion as to whether or not the only reason some choose to participate at all is in the hope of seeing a particular poster proved wrong or dressed down.

I've said previously, I used to shake my head every time I read any of the umpteen 'dominant male' threads that were floating around. And there was a point in time when I thought the methods described were arrogant, sexist, and disrespectful ... but I never felt compelled to wish ill upon the relationships of those who were espousing what works for them, or to see the OP's 'smacked down'.

I don't feel compelled to defend any particular individual, but I'm simply not going to invest effort in telling someone what works for them ... doesn't actually work for them. No matter who the poster is.

So the overall answer to the question remains, women are welcome in the mens' clubhouse, and I think they are treated with patience and respect. Would be curious to know if you feel differently.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> So I must ask ...
> 
> and I will specifically state that my question relates to the discussions of dominance, assertiveness, confidence.
> 
> Why do women feel compelled to attack, dismiss or diminish these lines of discussion regarding circumstances that either men want to learn about, or insofar that men highlight that such methods actually work in their Long Term Relationships?
> 
> There was a recent thread on the general forum and I simply could not shake the notion that _women_ were rooting for a poster who was simply masquerading antagonism and personal attacks as presumptive insight and fact?
> 
> Anyone care to have that discussion?
> 
> I don't think the details of the thread are as important as addressing the notion as to whether or not the only reason some choose to participate at all is in the hope of seeing a particular poster proved wrong or dressed down.
> 
> I've said previously, I used to shake my head every time I read any of the umpteen 'dominant male' threads that were floating around. And there was a point in time when I thought the methods described were arrogant, sexist, and disrespectful ... but I never felt compelled to wish ill upon the relationships of those who were espousing what works for them, or to see the OP's 'smacked down'.
> 
> I don't feel compelled to defend any particular individual, but I'm simply not going to invest effort in telling someone what works for them ... doesn't actually work for them. No matter who the poster is.
> 
> So the overall answer to the question remains, women are welcome in the mens' clubhouse, and I think they are treated with patience and respect. Would be curious to know if you feel differently.


So what's the discussion?


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## Deejo

Brennan said:


> So what's the discussion?


Still moobs ...

and nice deflection


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## SimplyAmorous

Deejo said:


> There was a recent thread on the general forum and I simply could not shake the notion that _women_ were rooting for a poster who was simply masquerading antagonism and personal attacks as presumptive insight and fact?
> 
> Anyone care to have that discussion?


 I believe Deejo is talking about *ME*. I said a few mindless things in a recent thread that I should NOT have said, was accually thinking I needed to go back & erase! It was not that I agreed with this poster, I found him rude/ obnoxious/ insulting , but yet if
you stripped this away, he did have "some" valid points (or so I felt), his presentation got him kicked off of here - and rightly so. I guess I seen more than the bad. All I can say is I am sorry about that. 

If you knew me, you would know I like debate, but this was surely NOT the place for it. He attacked me somewhere too, but I guess I am not too bothered by attacks, I almost enjoy responding to them, maybe I am twisted. 

For me, I have some issues with the whole "all Nice Guys are pathetic" mentality. I might agree with 75% of the message given on this forum in the Men's Club, but I struggle with it all. Just maybe this is because of how it is presented at times and I am not "getting it" yet. To hear an articulate rebuttle (by someone other than this banned poster) against some of the elect, yeah, I guess that would be very interesting - to me. It might help me learn also.

But I will agree with you, my actions & words were CARELESS on that thread, wrong place, wrong time, it only made ME look bad to be uplifting some joker who got banned days after he became a member. 

I'm not always the brightest bulb around, so please forgive my stupidity.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Still moobs ...


Wrong! We talk about some heavy stuff. Man tits aren't one of them. 
I often come across as *****y and hostile to many of you men. I am sure of that. In reality? I am a woman who is trying to understand her husband and his new found honesty. Painful? Yes. Scary? Yes.


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## MEM2020

SA,
I haven't noticed you posting anything stupid recently. Perhaps you are being too hard on yourself  . I am about to post a new thread here - in the mens club and I welcome female commentary/input. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> I believe Deejo is talking about *ME*. I said a few mindless things in a recent thread that I should NOT have said, was accually thinking I needed to go back & erase! It was not that I agreed with this poster, I found him rude/ obnoxious/ insulting , but yet if
> you stripped this away, he did have "some" valid points (or so I felt), his presentation got him kicked off of here - and rightly so. I guess I seen more than the bad. All I can say is I am sorry about that.
> 
> If you knew me, you would know I like debate, but this was surely NOT the place for it. He attacked me somewhere too, but I guess I am not too bothered by attacks, I almost enjoy responding to them, maybe I am twisted.
> 
> For me, I have some issues with the whole "all Nice Guys are pathetic" mentality. I might agree with 75% of the message given on this forum in the Men's Club, but I struggle with it all. Just maybe this is because of how it is presented at times and I am not "getting it" yet. To hear an articulate rebuttle (by someone other than this banned poster) against some of the elect, yeah, I guess that would be very interesting - to me. It might help me learn also.
> 
> But I will agree with you, my actions & words were CARELESS on that thread, wrong place, wrong time, it only made ME look bad to be uplifting some joker who got banned days after he became a member.
> 
> I'm not always the brightest bulb around, so please forgive my stupidity.


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## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> For me, I have some issues with the whole "all Nice Guys are pathetic" mentality. I might agree with 75% of the message given on this forum in the Men's Club, but I struggle with it all. Just maybe this is because of how it is presented at times and I am not "getting it" yet. To hear an articulate rebuttle (by someone other than this banned poster) against some of the elect, yeah, I guess that would be very interesting - to me. It might help me learn also.


SA, I was with the quintessential Nice Woman for 42 years and I thoroughly enjoyed her.

I think the difference with what you see as your Nice Guy Husband is that his world, with you in it is working very well for him as well as for you.

Whereas on the other hand, the Nice Guys spoken about in the main here, well their world isn’t working for them in the way they’d like it to. And they are actually seeking to change themselves and therefore their world.

Your husband has no reason to change. That’s the difference.

Bob


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## nice777guy

SimplyAmorous said:


> It was not that I agreed with this poster, I found him rude/ obnoxious/ insulting , but yet if
> you stripped this away, he did have "some" valid points (or so I felt), his presentation got him kicked off of here - and rightly so. I guess I seen more than the bad. All I can say is I am sorry about that.
> 
> If you knew me, you would know I like debate, but this was surely NOT the place for it. He attacked me somewhere too, but I guess I am not too bothered by attacks, I almost enjoy responding to them, maybe I am twisted.
> 
> But I will agree with you, my actions & words were CARELESS on that thread, wrong place, wrong time, it only made ME look bad to be uplifting some joker who got banned days after he became a member.
> 
> I'm not always the brightest bulb around, so please forgive my stupidity.


SA - I agree that the now banned poster said some interesting things. Its almost too bad that the reasonable things he said got wiped out by some really stupid and unnecessary comments.

Most of us understand that agreeing with a handful of that poster's statements doesn't mean that you agree with everything he said.


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## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> Whereas on the other hand, the Nice Guys spoken about in the main here, well their world isn’t working for them in the way they’d like it to. And they are actually seeking to change themselves and therefore their world.


And these men DO need to change, I agree. But I do not think it is all their fault, I think the majority of the time their women are Bit**es and THEY need to change-more so & appreciate what they have. My husband would have never changed, and I hate to say it, but he definetely falls into the pathetic nice guy category, and he always would have. He will never be very assertive, he will never be very dominate, he is not oozing with confidence. These things are simply not him. I guess I always feel he is being assulted when I read some of this stuff. That personality test I gave him today, him being a "ISFJ" -that said it all. He was born this way. But yeah, if these men are married to a carelss B who wants to trample them, I agree , they need some balls- and fast. Definetely. 

I REALLY appreciate your comment MEM!


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## greenpearl

SimplyAmorous said:


> And these men DO need to change, I agree. But I do not think it is all their fault, I think the majority of the time their women are Bit**es and THEY need to change-more so & appreciate what they have. My husband would have never changed, and I hate to say it, but he definetely falls into the pathetic nice guy category, and he always would have. He will never be very assertive, he will never be very dominate, he is not oozing with confidence. These things are simply not him. I guess I always feel he is being assulted when I read some of this stuff. That personality test I gave him today, him being a "ISFJ" -that said it all. He was born this way. But yeah, if these men are married to a carelss B who wants to trample them, I agree , they need some balls- and fast. Definetely.
> 
> I REALLY appreciate your comment MEM!


  

If nice guys are married to nice women, then there is no need for them to man up, because they don't need to. Their wives are nice wives. 

I do see some men being trampled by their vicious wives, for these kind of marriages, the men really have to MAN UP. It is just not fair to see her acting like that to her man.


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## Deejo

SimplyAmorous said:


> I believe Deejo is talking about *ME*.


I'll state for the record, if I intend to call anyone out, I'll call'em out. I wasn't directing my thoughts at you SA.

It felt like an undercurrent, more than an overt ambush on anybody's part.

Honestly, the current thread simply made me reconsider a substantial number of threads in the past in which BBW contributed and there was some pretty open hostility mostly female - none of our current corp of female posters are included. This goes back well over a year. 

My simple summary is this, by my measure, none of the common contributors to the men's clubhouse make it a goal to be disrespectful to women posters, or women in general. Provocative? Undoubtedly, but that's what makes the magic happen. But I am curious if the female participants feel disrespected.

Trenton has previously owned the fact that she wants to be heard, and hates the idea of being marginalized for her views ... this is the most clear and concise example I can think of. So my question is do you, Trenton, or any of the other ladies actually feel like the men are being disrespectful of you by virtue of how we discuss relationship dynamics? And if so, why - and why do you keep coming back? Not that we don't love having you ...


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## greenpearl

I enjoy conversation with people who are respectful to me. 

We can disagree with each other, never said that one theory works for everybody. We discuss, we talk in mild tone, we get point cross. 

Being hostile and offensive, I just don't see the point. 

I RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.

I don't like to argueeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

But I like to learnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn. 

And I like to talk to intelligent mennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn, and intelligent womennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn. 

Learn a lot...................................


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## BigBadWolf

I have no problem with women being here.

I do have a problem when the drama and cheerleading intefere with beneficial discussion.

I have a BIG problem with personal attacks, particularly any attack on an OP such as the nonsense that just occured with Marco100, who had a very juvenile and transparent way of mixing half-truths and half lies to justify personal attacks.

And if anyone wishes to engage me at any time, concerning relationships and sexual behaviors with actual cause and effects, I hope it is clear that it is ALWAYS welcome, as I am not here to spread lies but to only encourage behavior that works and to discourage behavior that does not work.

But understand, this is not accomplished by feminist shaming tactics or political correct admonishments or sexist fretting or generalizing fretting or anything else merely pretend or make believe. 

Such things mean less than nothing to me and mostly I will ignore any nonsense that clouds beneficial communication, namely which is to simply and honestly discuss what works and what does not work. Period. This should be agreeable to anyone.

To discuss actual cause and effects, coming from a man or a woman, I have no problem at all.

As far as Deejos comment women being hostile to "dominance threads", I perfectly understand that is the nature of the beast. 

To me personally, and to be quite frank, it is very useful to have a woman react as a woman will react, for in the big picture, it reinforces the chasm between logic (what a woman often says she prefers), and emotion (what a woman reacts to and behaves, the reality).

For instance, a woman will often recoil with shock often when the subject of discipline spanking comes up, of course, that is natural. It is not a secret, even in my own relationship, it does little good between even my wife and myself to discuss these things with words. But in actions, there is no doubt between us, when I am dominant in some way, she is VERY physically aroused and emotionally connected to me in a level not going to be reached by mere words or speaking.

The issue, on a forum, using words and the logic of speech trying to communicate a primal feminine sexual response to male dominance, is not going to convince anyone with mere words. 

This is why I emphasize actions over words, concerning sexual relations, one does not equal the other.

The good man, if and when he practices these actions and behaviors himself, concerning dominance or fitness testing or whatever, and he sees that logic is out the window, and instead his woman is on fire for him like she was in the beginning of the relationship. 

When such testimony is brought back to this forum, for many other men to see and read, this is what is beneficial for all, to see and read these truths in action.

The greatest issue, and I will speak to my concern for this, when a man hurting or confused, and comes to this TAM forum with an issue, and the men on this forum give correct and proper advice, and then a woman may recoil at dominance or fitness testing discussion, and respond with shaming tactics or similar, such a confused man may see such a reaction from a woman as evidence the advice is bad.

This scenario, very generalized, but is often repeated in some form or another. 

So that is why when I reply to a man, I am quick to de-emphasize the women's reaction, to negate the need to seek out a woman's approval, simply because even though I am perfectly aware a woman is naturally going to "test" any display of dominance, the hurting and confused man posting the thread may easily not be so aware of such fundamental truths.

Of course, a woman seeing me post this will quickly assume I do not regard a woman's opinion or reaction as important. Nothing could be farther from the truth, but in the context of helping a hurting and confused man, it is necessary to take steps one at a time, regardless how it appears on the surface.

SO understand, just like this, to read "someone elses mail" is often tempting to react, but my posts to men are not written as to a woman, as well, when I respond occasionally to a woman, they are not written as to a man. ONly to speak to the particular dynamic at work at the specific situation at the specific time.

And concerning private discussions between men, I am aware this is beneficial as well, but I am not of an opinion it can easily be done on a public forum.

In private messages, of course I often discuss these topics in great detail and great bluntness to other men regularly privately, and am free to speak to the larger structures and even darker tendancies of the sexual structures between men and women that I would ever type out in public, so in this way I do see the benefit of such conversation.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> I'll state for the record, if I intend to call anyone out, I'll call'em out. I wasn't directing my thoughts at you SA.
> 
> It felt like an undercurrent, more than an overt ambush on anybody's part.
> 
> Honestly, the current thread simply made me reconsider a substantial number of threads in the past in which BBW contributed and there was some pretty open hostility mostly female - none of our current corp of female posters are included. This goes back well over a year.
> 
> My simple summary is this, by my measure, none of the common contributors to the men's clubhouse make it a goal to be disrespectful to women posters, or women in general. Provocative? Undoubtedly, but that's what makes the magic happen. But I am curious if the female participants feel disrespected.
> 
> Trenton has previously owned the fact that she wants to be heard, and hates the idea of being marginalized for her views ... this is the most clear and concise example I can think of. So my question is do you, Trenton, or any of the other ladies actually feel like the men are being disrespectful of you by virtue of how we discuss relationship dynamics? And if so, why - and why do you keep coming back? Not that we don't love having you ...


I don't feel marginalized at all. I am who I am and I will never be Eddie Murphy's gf in Coming to America with her line of "I like what you like", just because that is what a man wants to hear.
I make sense and I discuss things like a normal, rational human being. Do I wear my heart on my sleeve, yes. What you see is what you get. It's pretty simple.

Oh, and Deejo, Rivers is kicking the CRAP out of Manning! SD for the win!!!!:smthumbup:


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## AFEH

To put it bluntly Brennan started this thread off with a gross misrepresentation.

“Women Not Welcome”.
What an opening statement designed for emotive response that was.

No way did I even allude to that in my thread. 



Brennan said:


> I thought this was a forum where men could ask questions of other men and women could ask questions of other men. Am I wrong here?





AFEH said:


> Here are my premises:
> 1) This is a forum where men seek help in their life from men. Only men should answer these posts.
> 2) This is a forum where women seek help in their life from men. Only men should answer these posts.


Made a drama out of nowhere.

D&A was far more constructive.

Bob


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## Therealbrighteyes

Wrong, Bob. You have often asked the mods to "escort" us women out of the Men's forum. Many, many times. I simply asked if we were welcome. I didn't create drama, I asked a question. That is all.


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## AFEH

Do you really think I’d be so stupid to ask the moderators to escort you out of the forum? And do you really think the mods would obey my wishes? Were you really afraid of that?

Deliberately antagonistic? Deliberately misunderstanding? Deliberately provocative? Deliberately misrepresenting?

I actually don’t think you are.

Bob


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## Therealbrighteyes

AFEH said:


> Do you really think I’d be so stupid to ask the moderators to escort you out of the forum? And do you really think the mods would obey my wishes? Were you really afraid of that?
> 
> Deliberately antagonistic? Deliberately misunderstanding? Deliberately provocative? Deliberately misrepresenting?
> 
> I actually don’t think you are.
> 
> Bob


Perhaps I got you wrong, Bob. Many times you have posted that in essence, you wanted us escorted out of here. I am none of the things you posted above and I am thankful you see me as not being such. I like this forum and would like to think that a woman can come here with her questions and thoughts and not feel like she is not welcome. 
If I got you wrong, to that I apologize, sincerely!


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## Trenton

I’ve been thinking about this a great deal in-between my current busy schedule. I am happy that I have had to think about this as normally I don’t give myself time to digest a thought and speak on a whim. So that you know this is something I’ve thought on a great deal.

The men who believe in the philosophy of BigBadWolf are not going to like what I say. I am assuming here, based upon my observations only, that they will tell me that I can’t understand nor grasp what is being said because I am a woman. This is such bad logic because if it doesn’t work for me it obviously does not work for at least one woman and I believe it’s been said that other women have also fiercely objected. How defeating.
There are so many things that bother me about it and I’m going to try to articulate it.

1. Just because something “works” doesn’t mean it can’t work better
2.	Just because something “works” doesn’t mean that it is right
3.	Who are men to think that they can dictate what truly works for women when they have to disregard women in order to do this?

Do any men here even care to understand what it’s like to be a woman? Do they want to understand women or just possess them in a way that satisfies their needs? BBW’s philosophy is a way for a man to manipulate “his” woman into having a relationship with him that satisfies him and if he is satisfied and the woman is giving a positive response then it must work. Why don’t we question this logic?

The base of this type of relationship is purely a game. True love is not factored in at all. In fact, the philosophy dictates that we should accept that all love is conditional. The outcomes are prompted by learned techniques that require men to change who they have become. The thought process is that the end results give women what they want and so in doing this transformation men receive enough gratification to justify the change.

No. For me authenticity and trust are deeper than that. Yes, I am a woman and I am complicated. There are always rooms for games in love but if the love is solely based around a game it is fragile and fake in nature. I love more than most that I know—if this is because I am a woman, so be it, I am blessed. I see our connections to one another as more important and see this type of behavior transformation as a direct step away from our humanity, from bonding and connecting in a way that is at our core. 

My point being this, perhaps this transformation works with a certain type of woman but I’m proposing that this woman doesn’t know herself very well, is insecure with her essence and feels the need to bend to a man’s will and allow him to dominate as a reflection of her poor sense of self and insecurities. I also propose that this behavior transformation and Alpha male philosophy will only work for a certain type of man who gains his confidence from self absorption and feeds his own sense of self worth with his feelings of worth prospering from the power he gets from dominating/controlling the relationship. 

Will this philosophy work? Yes. I think it can. I don’t believe it is right. 

I think it falls along the lines of the philosophies of Leo Strauss. He believed that there were an elite few composed of the wealthy and educated that knew better than the general public. Furthermore, that the general public was not capable of making the right choices and could easily be manipulated. He suggested controlling the general public through a false sense of fear. This way they were easier to control and would be willing to do what the elite dictated and this was justified because they alone knew what was best for society.

I am saying that the farther we get from truth the farther we get from our humanity, our connections and the things that allow us to do good things. Altruism is not a possibility because there is no true connection to self or to others. All feelings and emotions are generated on a whim by stimulus.

Women may seem more complicated than men but this hardly makes us weak, less intelligent or less capable of making decisions. If you want a relationship based upon manipulation, lack of understanding of women and self gratification then BBW’s philosophies are for you. If you want the true adoration and love of a woman who will show you her secret garden and help you understand how much love and beauty she is capable of then you want to meet a different type of woman than the type of woman who would enjoy BBW’s philosophy.

If some of the words don't work in the philosophy, if it can be improved why do we have to try to re-define words to make them fit the philosophy. Oh. It is so flawed.


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Perhaps I got you wrong, Bob. Many times you have posted that in essence, you wanted us escorted out of here. I am none of the things you posted above and I am thankful you see me as not being such. I like this forum and would like to think that a woman can come here with her questions and thoughts and not feel like she is not welcome.
> If I got you wrong, to that I apologize, sincerely!


Brennan, you did a similar thing with your husband and your wedding song. It is your MO. You don’t “seek to understand”, which is one of the arts of good communication. I could tell you more but I’ve tried before.

What more can I say? I didn’t take it personally because I know you a little bit and in some ways how you “operate”, but your apology’s nice anyway so thanks.

It is a drama out of nothing. A mountain out of a molehill that didn’t exist in the first place.

It is one of the reasons, this sort of thing, why I started a thread about the Men’s Clubhouse. In a way you proved my point. Like QED.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> I’ve been thinking about this a great deal in-between my current busy schedule. I am happy that I have had to think about this as normally I don’t give myself time to digest a thought and speak on a whim. So that you know this is something I’ve thought on a great deal.
> 
> The men who believe in the philosophy of BigBadWolf are not going to like what I say. I am assuming here, based upon my observations only, that they will tell me that I can’t understand nor grasp what is being said because I am a woman. This is such bad logic because if it doesn’t work for me it obviously does not work for at least one woman and I believe it’s been said that other women have also fiercely objected. How defeating.
> There are so many things that bother me about it and I’m going to try to articulate it.
> 
> 1. Just because something “works” doesn’t mean it can’t work better
> 2.	Just because something “works” doesn’t mean that it is right
> 3.	Who are men to think that they can dictate what truly works for women when they have to disregard women in order to do this?
> 
> Do any men here even care to understand what it’s like to be a woman? Do they want to understand women or just possess them in a way that satisfies their needs? BBW’s philosophy is a way for a man to manipulate “his” woman into having a relationship with him that satisfies him and if he is satisfied and the woman is giving a positive response then it must work. Why don’t we question this logic?
> 
> The base of this type of relationship is purely a game. True love is not factored in at all. In fact, the philosophy dictates that we should accept that all love is conditional. The outcomes are prompted by learned techniques that require men to change who they have become. The thought process is that the end results give women what they want and so in doing this transformation men receive enough gratification to justify the change.
> 
> No. For me authenticity and trust are deeper than that. Yes, I am a woman and I am complicated. There are always rooms for games in love but if the love is solely based around a game it is fragile and fake in nature. I love more than most that I know—if this is because I am a woman, so be it, I am blessed. I see our connections to one another as more important and see this type of behavior transformation as a direct step away from our humanity, from bonding and connecting in a way that is at our core.
> 
> My point being this, perhaps this transformation works with a certain type of woman but I’m proposing that this woman doesn’t know herself very well, is insecure with her essence and feels the need to bend to a man’s will and allow him to dominate as a reflection of her poor sense of self and insecurities. I also propose that this behavior transformation and Alpha male philosophy will only work for a certain type of man who gains his confidence from self absorption and feeds his own sense of self worth with his feelings of worth prospering from the power he gets from dominating/controlling the relationship.
> 
> Will this philosophy work? Yes. I think it can. I don’t believe it is right.
> 
> I think it falls along the lines of the philosophies of Leo Strauss. He believed that there were an elite few composed of the wealthy and educated that knew better than the general public. Furthermore, that the general public was not capable of making the right choices and could easily be manipulated. He suggested controlling the general public through a false sense of fear. This way they were easier to control and would be willing to do what the elite dictated and this was justified because they alone knew what was best for society.
> 
> I am saying that the farther we get from truth the farther we get from our humanity, our connections and the things that allow us to do good things. Altruism is not a possibility because there is no true connection to self or to others. All feelings and emotions are generated on a whim by stimulus.
> 
> Women may seem more complicated than men but this hardly makes us weak, less intelligent or less capable of making decisions. If you want a relationship based upon manipulation, lack of understanding of women and self gratification then BBW’s philosophies are for you. If you want the true adoration and love of a woman who will show you her secret garden and help you understand how much love and beauty she is capable of then you want to meet a different type of woman than the type of woman who would enjoy BBW’s philosophy.
> 
> If some of the words don't work in the philosophy, if it can be improved why do we have to try to re-define words to make them fit the philosophy. Oh. It is so flawed.


It's the Men's Clubhouse.

Trenton you have just oh so shiningly and loudly proved my point again. In a different way to Brennan, but nevertheless you have proved my point by this very post.

Bob


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> It's the Men's Clubhouse.
> 
> Trenton you have just oh so shiningly and loudly proved my point again. In a different way to Brennan, but nevertheless you have proved my point by this very post.
> 
> Bob


What is your point Bob? Either way, always glad to help you out.


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> What is your point Bob? Either way, always glad to help you out.



I was even being ironic. That would have got you really confused.

Bob


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> I was even being ironic. That would have got you really confused.
> 
> Bob


No doubt.


----------



## Conrad

Wolf is right,

While the Marcos of the world may sound "oh so logical", it's not logic that carries the day in intimate partnerships.

MEM, Wolf, and Atholk are on it.

Joy Behar, Rosie, and a whole host of others may deny it.

But, that doesn't make it any less true.


----------



## BigBadWolf

Trenton,

I appreciate this post, and since it is on topic of this thread I would like to respond to several points.



Trenton said:


> I’ve been thinking about this a great deal in-between my current busy schedule. I am happy that I have had to think about this as normally I don’t give myself time to digest a thought and speak on a whim. So that you know this is something I’ve thought on a great deal.
> 
> The men who believe in the philosophy of BigBadWolf are not going to like what I say. I am assuming here, based upon my observations only, that they will tell me that I can’t understand nor grasp what is being said because I am a woman. This is such bad logic because if it doesn’t work for me it obviously does not work for at least one woman and I believe it’s been said that other women have also fiercely objected. How defeating.


First, some questions.

What difference does it make if anyone likes what you are saying?

Second, if a woman disagreeing with male dominance, if it is as predictible as the sunrise, then why fret this point?

Also what do you mean it "doesn't work" for you? You are married right? Did you marry a man that has no opinions or interests, no talents or mastery, who asks your permission to pursue his own desires? 




> There are so many things that bother me about it and I’m going to try to articulate it.
> 
> 1. Just because something “works” doesn’t mean it can’t work better


Agreed!




> 2.	Just because something “works” doesn’t mean that it is right


Morality, ethics, these things are as much smokescreens as they are reality.

Mutual consent, between a man and a woman, this is as far as "right" as needed concerning sexual discussion.




> 3. Who are men to think that they can dictate what truly works for women


Cause and effect demonstrate reality.

Wishful thinking, it is merely that.

And if I am in any relationship with any woman, and she is unhappy with the relationship, well there is the door. I assume in any of the marriages and relationships presented on the forum that no woman is bound by chains and locks to her man.

A woman is free to pursue all the nice guys she wants. And if she is happy and he is happy in the "relationship', then great.

The men who come to this forum, they tend to not be happy in such a "relationship", therefore advice is given to correct the issues. 



> when they have to disregard women in order to do this?


By disregard, do you really mean "not kiss a woman's butt"?

If you have a better way, then speak it.

If you have a better process, then share it.

If you have a keener insight, then proclaim it.

Otherwise, to complain just because you don't like what is being said, is a waste of time.



> Do any men here even care to understand what it’s like to be a woman?


Historically speaking, a woman, she is the weaker sex, therefore her strength lies in her cunning and social/emotional manipulation. 

Such as questions implying that men do not care what "it's like to be a woman?"



> Do they want to understand women or just possess them in a way that satisfies their needs?[/quotes]
> 
> Sexual relationships, they are selfish to the core.
> 
> Anything contrary to this, is just window dressing.
> 
> Should we attempt to shame a woman for trying to satisfy her needs for selecting a male that is an able provider and protector? I didn't think so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BBW’s philosophy is a way for a man to manipulate “his” woman into having a relationship with him that satisfies him and if he is satisfied and the woman is giving a positive response then it must work.
> 
> 
> 
> A woman telling a man to do more around the house in exchange for sex, this is not manipulation?
> 
> Primal sexual drive and attraction, it is not about manipulating, it is about cause and effect.
> 
> To recognize and deal with what is already in place, is the core of my advice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don’t we question this logic?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because women already show by their actions and behavior what they respond to.
> 
> Sexual attraction, is is not logical, nor is it worth time to debate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The base of this type of relationship is purely a game.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A sexual relationship is based on satisfying mutual selfish needs, emotional and physical.
> 
> To try to shame the man into believing it is anything more or less, is not beneficial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True love is not factored in at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is this "True love", and what weight can we "factor" it in, and to what equation as well?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, the philosophy dictates that we should accept that all love is conditional.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Would you "love" your man if he slept with other women, didn't bath,e would not hold down a job, beat you, and killed puppies and kittens for fun?
> 
> The word "love", it is good for muddying the water of a discussion, but not much else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The outcomes are prompted by learned techniques that require men to change who they have become.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We are what we do, and what we do define who we are.
> 
> A woman was attracted to a man, and won the man. Over time, the man gave up what was important to him to try to make her happy. The end result, the man and woman are both unhappy.
> 
> To give the prescription to undo this common scenario, is merely this, for the man to return to his actions and behaviors that attracted his woman to begin with.
> 
> It is only as benign or sinister as we pretend, but the reality, this is simply not a moral or ethical dilemma.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The thought process is that the end results give women what they want and so in doing this transformation men receive enough gratification to justify the change.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Marriage is a sexual relationship. Sexual and emotional gratification for both the man and woman, is the goal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. For me authenticity and trust are deeper than that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you married your husband to do him a favor? Or are you willing to admit that you received some benefit as well?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I am a woman and I am complicated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am sure you also believe you are a special and unique snowflake as well.
> 
> Google NAWALT sometime when you have some free time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are always rooms for games in love but if the love is solely based around a game it is fragile and fake in nature. I love more than most that I know—if this is because I am a woman, so be it, I am blessed. I see our connections to one another as more important and see this type of behavior transformation as a direct step away from our humanity, from bonding and connecting in a way that is at our core.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you define "humanity" as domestication, then what you are saying is true.
> 
> But I do not regard domestication as the equivelant as happiness, nor the pursuit of sexual desire and the resulting emotional connection as less than human. Exactly the opposite.
> 
> Would learning to play a musical instrument also be a game? Or learning the techniques of painting pictures, or learning to master any skill be a game as well?
> 
> Your arguments against men learning to act and behave in ways to increase sexual attraction, they are the same as you would be arguing against learning musical scales, or the various shades and textures of paints on canvass, claiming such discipline would be "dehumanizing" or inauthentic.
> 
> The discipline to learn the structures of cause and effect, whether a musical instrument, painting, or sexual attraction, are real and valid, despite your erroneous opinion of them.
> 
> Sexual relationships, they are not random chaotic "magical" creations of pixies and fairies and unicorns and cherubs!
> 
> They are bio-chemically driven impulses from the VERY HUMAN primal desire to procreate, and they CAN be observed, organized, structured, diagnosed, AND THESE STRUCTURES CAN BE PUT INTO ACTION.
> 
> If you wish to call this "inauthentic" "inhuman" "manipulation", then so be it. Just don't fret when we all don't dance to your drum beats.
> 
> Throughout history, most any attempt to influence or harness nature, there are the mighty soldiers of the status quo warning the bold and courageous of the dangers of "playing god". Your objections, they are not so different.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point being this, perhaps this transformation works with a certain type of woman but I’m proposing that this woman doesn’t know herself very well, is insecure with her essence and feels the need to bend to a man’s will and allow him to dominate as a reflection of her poor sense of self and insecurities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Perhaps you are dead wrong on this point.
> 
> Any woman, she is free to buy herself some cats and live happy and content without a man in her life. I will not object at all.
> 
> But what I will object, is yet ANOTHER shaming tactic, this time implying any woman who is honest and bold enough to agree with what you do not agree with, is all these negative things.
> 
> Perhaps I can share a theory, that any woman who disagrees with me, doesn’t know herself very well, is insecure with her essence and feels the need to bend to a feminist idealogy, and allow her public dishonesty as a reflection of her hidden poor sense of self and insecurities.
> 
> How did I do?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also propose that this behavior transformation and Alpha male philosophy will only work for a certain type of man
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I propose it will work for the "type" of man who is a sexual relationship with a woman.
> 
> You know, that "type" of man.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> who gains his confidence from self absorption and feeds his own sense of self worth with his feelings of worth prospering from the power he gets from dominating/controlling the relationship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In other words, a man that behaves like the kind of man a woman dates or has a fling with is "bad", and the kind of man that bores a woman out of her mind is "good"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will this philosophy work? Yes. I think it can.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It works.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t believe it is right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The man that puts on his "nice guy" mask to try to please a woman, perhaps this is "right"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it falls along the lines of the philosophies of Leo Strauss. He believed that there were an elite few composed of the wealthy and educated that knew better than the general public. Furthermore, that the general public was not capable of making the right choices and could easily be manipulated. He suggested controlling the general public through a false sense of fear. This way they were easier to control and would be willing to do what the elite dictated and this was justified because they alone knew what was best for society.
> 
> I am saying that the farther we get from truth the farther we get from our humanity, our connections and the things that allow us to do good things. Altruism is not a possibility because there is no true connection to self or to others. All feelings and emotions are generated on a whim by stimulus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actions are the reality, words are at best approximations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Women may seem more complicated than men but this hardly makes us weak, less intelligent or less capable of making decisions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do not regard women as "complicated".
> 
> At best, a woman's "complications" are merely that by her nature, sexually speaking, she is subtle and deceptive. This is (was) necessary to weed out weaker and less desirable males.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want a relationship based upon manipulation, lack of understanding of women and self gratification then BBW’s philosophies are for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actions and behavior, this is the truth.
> 
> When anyone is having a cause and effect that is effective, yet somehow ignores masculine and feminine desires and traits, and leads to happiness and success in marriage, then I am open to listen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want the true adoration and love of a woman who will show you her secret garden and help you understand how much love and beauty she is capable of then you want to meet a different type of woman than the type of woman who would enjoy BBW’s philosophy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How "nice" would a man have to be to see this "true adoration" and "love"?
> 
> In fact, what exactly would this man and woman look like, in practice, and not just flowery words?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If some of the words don't work in the philosophy, if it can be improved why do we have to try to re-define words to make them fit the philosophy. Oh. It is so flawed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I assume here you are referring to the word "dominant"?
> 
> A woman, she will respond to male dominance, and this reponse is real and physical and emotional and is her biological heritage.
> 
> Women, they absolutely do not need to be insulted or misunderstood because of this heritage!
> 
> So finally, it is good to discuss these things when appropriate.
> 
> Otherwise, I prefer not to cloud helpful threads by arguing against reality.
> 
> In this, Trenton, I do appreciate this discussion in this thread.
Click to expand...


----------



## Conrad

Wolf,

Just to illustrate your point.

"Socialism" has failed everywhere it's tried.

Russia, Europe (they're bankrupt), China (went to capitalism), etc.

But, it "just sounds so good"

But, the "logical mind" still says it "should work"

It simply doesn't.

People work in their own self-interest. So, "socialism" - which requires you to work in the interest of another - is a non-starter.

But, some just can't "get over" what a great idea socialism is.

When I see you exchanging posts with Trenton, she simply wants to cling to "socialism" because it sounds good.

What actually "works" is irrelevant (to her)


----------



## greenpearl

Conrad,

Do you know why "Socialism" failed? 

Because it is too idealistic, and it ignored human nature. 

Human are greedy and need motivation to work hard, Socialism killed that, everybody became lazy. I grew up in Communism China, when I was young, it was still socialist at that time, service in stores was very bad, because no matter how they did, they got paid. 

Same thing with some modern women who think they should be the head of the family. 

They just ignore men's nature for wanting to be dominant and respected. 

When I see macho women, I am scared. I imagine if I were a man, how would I react to that. Would I have sexual desire for a woman who is so macho?


----------



## Conrad

greenpearl said:


> Conrad,
> 
> Do you know why "Socialism" failed?
> 
> Because it is too idealistic, and it ignored human nature.
> 
> Human are greedy and need motivation to work hard, Socialism killed that, everybody became lazy. I grew up in Communism China, when I was young, it was still socialist at them time, service in stores was very bad, because no matter how they did, they got paid.
> 
> Same thing with modern women who think they should be the head the family.
> 
> They just ignore men's nature for wanting to be dominant and respected.
> 
> When I see macho women, I am scared. I imagine if I were a man, how would I react to that. Would I have sexual desire for a woman who is so macho?


Pearl,

It's insane.

You see women that want Atlas in their bedroom, but they want to emasculate him at their whim.

It doesn't work that way.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> I’ve been thinking about this a great deal in-between my current busy schedule. I am happy that I have had to think about this as normally I don’t give myself time to digest a thought and speak on a whim. So that you know this is something I’ve thought on a great deal.
> 
> The men who believe in the philosophy of BigBadWolf are not going to like what I say. I am assuming here, based upon my observations only, that they will tell me that I can’t understand nor grasp what is being said because I am a woman. This is such bad logic because if it doesn’t work for me it obviously does not work for at least one woman and I believe it’s been said that other women have also fiercely objected. How defeating.
> There are so many things that bother me about it and I’m going to try to articulate it.
> 
> 1. Just because something “works” doesn’t mean it can’t work better
> 2.	Just because something “works” doesn’t mean that it is right
> 3.	Who are men to think that they can dictate what truly works for women when they have to disregard women in order to do this?
> 
> Do any men here even care to understand what it’s like to be a woman? Do they want to understand women or just possess them in a way that satisfies their needs? BBW’s philosophy is a way for a man to manipulate “his” woman into having a relationship with him that satisfies him and if he is satisfied and the woman is giving a positive response then it must work. Why don’t we question this logic?
> 
> The base of this type of relationship is purely a game. True love is not factored in at all. In fact, the philosophy dictates that we should accept that all love is conditional. The outcomes are prompted by learned techniques that require men to change who they have become. The thought process is that the end results give women what they want and so in doing this transformation men receive enough gratification to justify the change.
> 
> No. For me authenticity and trust are deeper than that. Yes, I am a woman and I am complicated. There are always rooms for games in love but if the love is solely based around a game it is fragile and fake in nature. I love more than most that I know—if this is because I am a woman, so be it, I am blessed. I see our connections to one another as more important and see this type of behavior transformation as a direct step away from our humanity, from bonding and connecting in a way that is at our core.
> 
> My point being this, perhaps this transformation works with a certain type of woman but I’m proposing that this woman doesn’t know herself very well, is insecure with her essence and feels the need to bend to a man’s will and allow him to dominate as a reflection of her poor sense of self and insecurities. I also propose that this behavior transformation and Alpha male philosophy will only work for a certain type of man who gains his confidence from self absorption and feeds his own sense of self worth with his feelings of worth prospering from the power he gets from dominating/controlling the relationship.
> 
> Will this philosophy work? Yes. I think it can. I don’t believe it is right.
> 
> I think it falls along the lines of the philosophies of Leo Strauss. He believed that there were an elite few composed of the wealthy and educated that knew better than the general public. Furthermore, that the general public was not capable of making the right choices and could easily be manipulated. He suggested controlling the general public through a false sense of fear. This way they were easier to control and would be willing to do what the elite dictated and this was justified because they alone knew what was best for society.
> 
> I am saying that the farther we get from truth the farther we get from our humanity, our connections and the things that allow us to do good things. Altruism is not a possibility because there is no true connection to self or to others. All feelings and emotions are generated on a whim by stimulus.
> 
> Women may seem more complicated than men but this hardly makes us weak, less intelligent or less capable of making decisions. If you want a relationship based upon manipulation, lack of understanding of women and self gratification then BBW’s philosophies are for you. If you want the true adoration and love of a woman who will show you her secret garden and help you understand how much love and beauty she is capable of then you want to meet a different type of woman than the type of woman who would enjoy BBW’s philosophy.
> 
> If some of the words don't work in the philosophy, if it can be improved why do we have to try to re-define words to make them fit the philosophy. Oh. It is so flawed.


So I'm going to take this as a 'Yes' in terms of feeling disrespected.


----------



## greenpearl

Conrad said:


> Pearl,
> 
> It's insane.
> 
> You see women that want Atlas in their bedroom, but they want to emasculate him at their whim.
> 
> It doesn't work that way.


I supports Wolf so much because what he says makes sense, not just because he is a man. 

When a woman respects her husband a lot, she has sexual desire for him. When a woman doesn't respect her husband, I don't know where her sexual desire comes from. 

When a man feels being respected by his woman, he is happy and wants to do more things for his woman. 

In China, women are always taught to be soft and soft like water, only this type of women can melt strong men's hearts.


----------



## Trenton

BigBadWolf, I will address your points and questions tomorrow. I am just short on time tonight. I appreciate the thought out response.

Conrad, I am not a Socialist although it is a big ongoing joke amongst my close friends that I'm a Feminist, Liberal Socialist...this is a joke; however. I would never promote any of these ideals based upon standards. I made a political reference but recognize politics is as hot of a topic as man/woman relations. Capitalism disguised as Democracy/Communism is very dangerous. You can see this in both China & the United States today. Socialism in practice is an underlining system seen in many countries including our own. Democracy is not perfect but it's the best we've got now.

Deejo, not at all by you, but yes.


----------



## Trenton

GP, why do you think women in the United States are more outspoken? Don't you think it has to do with how we are raised? If I read you correctly I am getting that Communist China breeds women soft as water who are not demanding while Democratic United States breeds outspoken women who are demanding. Anyway, it's a big leap but something I thought was interesting.


----------



## Conrad

Do you want to know what I think?


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> Do you want to know what I think?


Is this a baited question? Of course I do.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> Is this a baited question? Of course I do.


I actually think that powerful men largely brought the women's movement on themselves.

Life expectancy skyrocketed following the discovery of penicillin

Doctors - and other high-salaried men - often saw fit to "trade-in" their wives for younger models.

Seneca Falls, etc. was a outgrowth of the anger generated from that abuse.

Yet, the anger hasn't served "women" well.

It gets them a good deal in divorce - but it doesn't help them be happy.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> I actually think that powerful men largely brought the women's movement on themselves.
> 
> Life expectancy skyrocketed following the discovery of penicillin
> 
> Doctors - and other high-salaried men - often saw fit to "trade-in" their wives for younger models.
> 
> Seneca Falls, etc. was a outgrowth of the anger generated from that abuse.
> 
> Yet, the anger hasn't served "women" well.
> 
> It gets them a good deal in divorce - but it doesn't help them be happy.


Even if all you say is true, a complete step backwards will not equal a better life in my opinion. Strong women do not require weak men, they require confident men. Remember World War II when so many men had to serve our country, women took on parenting, working and everything else on the home front. Recognizing that they were capable of a man's role was eye opening. Rosie the Riveter is the best depiction of this. Feminism has a long history. Anger never serves anyone well but is natural. 

Besides, honestly, if you asked me if I would want to be with a man who saw me as an old model that he might one day decide to trade in I would have no interest. I would rather be alone and find happiness there than be a commodity so easily thrown out. Yes, I know it's considered pathetic by some but I do believe in love.


----------



## Conrad

I'm left wondering if you read my post.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> I'm left wondering if you read my post.


You need an iphone app for translating my text? 

You say that life expectancy going up and powerful men that were willing to trade in their models brought about the anger in women which leads to financial gain and bitterness for them. Correct?


----------



## Conrad

What I'm talking about is the denial that what women actually "need" is a man.

Not some "nice guy" poseur who tells them what they want to hear to get laid.

Not some obsequious pathetic piss ant who manipulates all situations to get in their pants.

Trenton - what is your definition of a "man"?


----------



## Deejo

You need to go to bed New Jersey.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> What I'm talking about is the denial that what women actually "need" is a man.
> 
> Not some "nice guy" poseur who tells them what they want to hear to get laid.
> 
> Not some obsequious pathetic piss ant who manipulates all situations to get in their pants.
> 
> Trenton - what is your definition of a "man"?


I'm a very tired tonight. I have to think about this.

If the nice guy is not really a nice guy and he is just posing as one then obviously that's the problem right there.

I've never been in a relationship where sex was something doled out only in return for expected behavior...that's obviously not a good thing for either. So I don't really know how to comment on that.

My definition of a man is my husband because he's the only man I have had time to get to know but he is not at all like the men here. He's strong willed, smart & cunning, admirable, creative, empathetic, protective, understanding and deeply affectionate and thoughtful. Being here has brought us closer together because it has made me really appreciate him more. Some of these posts scare the holy hell out of me. I am in disbelief at the lack of emotion or desire for a real relationship that is not based upon manipulation of behavior.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> You need to go to bed New Jersey.


Yeah, seriously. Tomorrow at 7am is going to be ugly like your current avi. Working on an event currently and I sort of get a high off of it which leads to even less sleep but it's all good.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> I'm a very tired tonight. I have to think about this.
> 
> If the nice guy is not really a nice guy and he is just posing as one then obviously that's the problem right there.
> 
> I've never been in a relationship where sex was something doled out only in return for expected behavior...that's obviously not a good thing for either. So I don't really know how to comment on that.
> 
> My definition of a man is my husband because he's the only man I have had time to get to know but he is not at all like the men here. He's strong willed, smart & cunning, admirable, creative, empathetic, protective, understanding and deeply affectionate and thoughtful. Being here has brought us closer together because it has made me really appreciate him more. Some of these posts scare the holy hell out of me. I am in disbelief at the lack of emotion or desire for a real relationship that is not based upon manipulation of behavior.


If he's so great, why are you here?


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> If he's so great, why are you here?


You'd have to read my first post. I think I am a b*tch who expects too much and maybe I should just accept that he's going to work late and not call me when things get busy at work. I'm working on it, I'm working on it.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> You'd have to read my first post. I think I am a b*tch who expects too much and maybe I should just accept that he's going to work late and not call me when things get busy at work. I'm working on it, I'm working on it.


Then I'd only advise you to listen to yourself.


----------



## Nekko

> When a woman respects her husband a lot, she has sexual desire for him. When a woman doesn't respect her husband, I don't know where her sexual desire comes from.
> 
> When a man feels being respected by his woman, he is happy and wants to do more things for his woman.


I think what you stated there works just as well for both genders. i agree with you that if i wouldn't respect my husband i wouldn't desire him that much. But i'd also like to add that i'd probably still want to have sex with him. What cuts my drive to pieces is when he doesn't show me respect. If it's obvious he doesn't respect me my sex drive will mysteriously disappear and i'll tend to start daydreaming of men who'd like me for who i am. 
What i'm trying to say is that both genders tend to want respect, love, acceptance, fidelity, care, their spouse putting them high on the list of priorities and having their best interest at heart. 




> They just ignore men's nature for wanting to be dominant and respected.


To be completely honest on how my mind works : my man, i will respect him and follow his lead because he's earned my respect and he's deserved it. Not because he is a man. If i had a woman friend who was like him i'd offer her the same privilege of leading. Other men? They are equal up to the point where they prove they are smarter or dumber and then they are classified accordingly. I will respect the smarter ones and follow or try to get as smart as they are....i will chose to be dominant over men who are clearly inferior as mind. Those are the basic rules of life for all living creatures on this planet in my view, male and female included. 

I'm not trying to pick on men or say they don't deserve respect because they do. I did however watch a documentary on Discovery last evening according to which in some parts of the world women are treated as slaves because "it's in their nature", yet if they give up their sexuality and womanhood and act and dress as men they are equal to men in their society. Those women actually believed their goal in life was to serve their men. None of them revolted. They were told that since they were born, that's just what they thought their life was like. But if they put on male's clothes and adopted their behavior, they suddenly had the same rights as them, worked as hard as them and got and wanted equal respect. That's a perfect example of just how "wired" and "programmed" we are to do one thing or another. Much of what we take as "our nature" is what society has taught us we should be like. While female with a more conservative cultures will gladly compromise and treat their men with the utmost respect, even if they don't receive that respect back, other women who were raised differently will get angry at the mere thought that they are supposed to be or act in any way inferior to their men. 


Having said that, in agree with Wolf that people should learn to take advantage of the primal instincts they all have. Attraction is more on a primal level than a logical thing that you chose. Yes, men are typically attracted to some traits only women have (they seem more vulnerable, more sensitive, smaller, more delicate, their bodily shape is different from a man's, curvaceous, nice to look at - even for other women - they're nurturing, kind and beautiful on the inside and outside) while women are typically attracted to a guy who's strong, capable and confident. Strong can mean he can lift a ton or it can mean his mind can handle just about anything life throws at him and he'll come up with a good solution. 

@Trenton - you could see acting in a certain way to get your partner to do something as manipulation. But let me point this out. We make people love us through our actions. When we're interested in someone we instinctively are nicer, flirt, unconsciously shn them, we want to get them interested in us and show them what we have to offer. That as well could be classified as manipulation because we basically want to get them in love with us. 

When passion is gone from a relationship...or love...or attraction, you can't demand it...i guess most will agree with me so far. It just doesn't work. Whatever it is you're asking for will become a chore for the other person to needs to "feel like wanting to do that something". Ok, so what do you do? You consciously repeat what you know attracted that person to you in the first place. 

Now, men and women let go after they take their partners for granted in different ways. Men aren't as '****y' and secure for various reasons, as when they met their partner. Women usually drop the make-up, put on some weight and start the nagging, complaining. Then, tada...the attraction is gone. What's simpler than reverting the change you went through to get the attraction back? It actually works. 

@AFEH - i respected your boundaries that you've set on your post. However, i've always sat around men (i barely have any female friends in real life) and i'll typically be attracted to areas where men are and hold conversations. For this reason i've definitely been more active on general and men's clubhouse. That's for as long as i'm welcomed there, anyway.


----------



## Conrad

>>@Trenton - you could see acting in a certain way to get your partner to do something as manipulation. But let me point this out. We make people love us through our actions. When we're interested in someone we instinctively are nicer, flirt, unconsciously shn them, we want to get them interested in us and show them what we have to offer. That as well could be classified as manipulation because we basically want to get them in love with us.<<

Diogenes search has ended!

An honest person.


----------



## AFEH

Nekko, I thought that “Women not welcome” here bit had been resolved.



Brennan said:


> Perhaps I got you wrong, Bob. Many times you have posted that in essence, you wanted us escorted out of here. I am none of the things you posted above and I am thankful you see me as not being such. I like this forum and would like to think that a woman can come here with her questions and thoughts and not feel like she is not welcome.
> If I got you wrong, to that I apologize, sincerely!


I joked a few times about smacking bums on the way out the door and there was intent with it.

I was trying to inspire others to make it a more masculine environment. Where men can learn from men and women can learn from men.

I actually think women will learn a lot more about men just through observation.

…………………………..

“Women Not Welcome”.
What an opening statement designed for emotive response that was.

No way did I even allude to that in my thread. 



Brennan said:


> I thought this was a forum where men could ask questions of other men and women could ask questions of other men. Am I wrong here?





AFEH said:


> Here are my premises:
> 1) This is a forum where men seek help in their life from men. Only men should answer these posts.
> 2) This is a forum where women seek help in their life from men. Only men should answer these posts.


……………………….

Never once did I say women are not welcome. Not once. That’s a total drama created by Brennan.

Enough said.

Bob


----------



## Nekko

AFEH said:


> Nekko, I thought that “Women not welcome” here bit had been resolved.



No, no, i didn't mean it that way . I know you didn't say women aren't welcomed. Think of this answer here more as an answer i wanted to give on your post but i didn't because I respected the "those who shave our chin" requirement (i don't hence i didn't post).

I was just explaining why i'm typically attracted to all posts on this section of the forum  It just comes natural to me to "hang around with men". All my friends are guys...or gay women with slightly masculine behaviors.. I don't discriminate based on gender but my life experience has showed me that i have little to no things in common (to talk about) with most women i've met so far.


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> GP, why do you think women in the United States are more outspoken? Don't you think it has to do with how we are raised? If I read you correctly I am getting that Communist China breeds women soft as water who are not demanding while Democratic United States breeds outspoken women who are demanding. Anyway, it's a big leap but something I thought was interesting.


Trenton, 

Please don't think that a lot of Chinese women are soft. China has" women and man should be equal theory" too. Chinese women enjoy a lot of social status now. There are many successful Chinese businesswomen, scientists, doctors, politicians, for brain work, if there are men, there are women. They are very outspoken too. When you are dealing with Chinese women, especially those educated ones, be careful, they are tough cookies. 

But we are also influenced a lot by our history moral teaching, women should be submissive and supportive to their men at home. I don't know how those successful women run their family life. I am curious to know. 

If you talk about demanding, a lot of women in this world are demanding, they have no nationality difference. 

China has its own problem about high divorce rate. Modern young people are all only child at their home, they are very spoiled, they don't know how to share, neither do they know how to communicate, a lot of young people get divorced not long after they get married, they just don't know how to get along with each other.


----------



## greenpearl

Nekko said:


> I think what you stated there works just as well for both genders. i agree with you that if i wouldn't respect my husband i wouldn't desire him that much. But i'd also like to add that i'd probably still want to have sex with him. What cuts my drive to pieces is when he doesn't show me respect. If it's obvious he doesn't respect me my sex drive will mysteriously disappear and i'll tend to start daydreaming of men who'd like me for who i am.
> What i'm trying to say is that both genders tend to want respect, love, acceptance, fidelity, care, their spouse putting them high on the list of priorities and having their best interest at heart.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be completely honest on how my mind works : my man, i will respect him and follow his lead because he's earned my respect and he's deserved it. Not because he is a man. If i had a woman friend who was like him i'd offer her the same privilege of leading. Other men? They are equal up to the point where they prove they are smarter or dumber and then they are classified accordingly. I will respect the smarter ones and follow or try to get as smart as they are....i will chose to be dominant over men who are clearly inferior as mind. Those are the basic rules of life for all living creatures on this planet in my view, male and female included.


Nekko,

I totally agree with you. 

When we don't respect our men, we tend not to have sexual desire for them, but we still have sexual desire, out body wants it. In my case, if I didn't respect my man, I wouldn't want to have sex with him, what would I do to solve my problem? 

And I also agree that men should earn our respect by being responsible and loving, they can't just expect respect from us comes from the sky.

That's why Wolf focuses so much that nice guys should MAN UP and earn their wives' respect. 

It is easy for me to respect my husband because he has earned my respect by being loving, responsible, interested in me, and also sets boundaries for me not to cross. I don't dare to act spoiled in front of him.


----------



## AFEH

greenpearl said:


> Trenton,
> 
> Please don't think that a lot of Chinese women are soft. China has" women and man should be equal theory" too. Chinese women enjoy a lot of social status now. There are many successful Chinese businesswomen, scientists, doctors, politicians, for brain work, if there are men, there are women. They are very outspoken too. When you are dealing with Chinese women, especially those educated ones, be careful, they are tough cookies.
> 
> But we are also influenced a lot by our history moral teaching, women should be submissive and supportive to their men at home. I don't know how those successful women run their family life. I am curious to know.
> 
> If you talk about demanding, a lot of women in this world are demanding, they have no nationality difference.
> 
> China has its own problem about high divorce rate. Modern young people are all only child at their home, they are very spoiled, they don't know how to share, neither do they know how to communicate, a lot of young people get divorced not long after they get married, they just don't know how to get along with each other.


I’ve a married couple as friends that go way back. His wife is Malay Chinese. She’s nobodies fool and she ain’t no pushover! Over a billion people in China, odds are they’re not all the same.

Bob


----------



## Trenton

BigBadWolf, I've read your post and instead of addressing each snippet I'm going to just post a sort of closing. I will leave your threads and the other threads about dominance/submission and niceguy/fitness testing alone after this.

I don't believe I'm a snowflake, I believe we are all connected. I love this about people but if you think that we are all exactly the same, that is equally naive & convenient.

I can't express enough how much faith I have gotten in my own relationship from reading the text in the men's clubhouse. 

These are all my opinions just as yours are opinions. You are basically writing off my opinions as impossible & wrong because your own beliefs are so strong. It doesn't make what you say any more valid than what I have to say. I am discounted before I speak (type) and so this is an exercise in futility. Obviously it's not a popular opinion and it gets old but women will come and they will read what you are saying and they will continue to point out the flaws in your philosophies and the group can quiet them in exhaustion and futility each time.

I will tell you that I don't believe your theory works for men who truly are nice guys (and better men in my opinion) and it won't work for women who are truly nice women (and better women in my opinion). You can continue to say the opposite is true. You are the one who believes you are a snowflake and here to save all the wayward men who fell in love, who sacrificed and then resented themselves and their wives because they were dishonest but ended up unhappy. Then they decided to do it your way and they will sacrifice just the same, they will be dishonest just the same but the only difference being they will prefer what this version of dishonesty gets them. Woot for teaching manipulation and lies and using primal impulses and masculinity as an excuse!

Nekko, I will agree it is true in the beginning of a relationship. These games are done to get to know someone else while keeping emotional boundaries in place as a protection. If your relationship builds and grows but you continue to try to manipulate, lie and pretend you are something you are not, emotional closeness and intimacy can't possibly prosper.

Although games are a part of most relationships we have, it doesn't mean we should strive to add more. You give your heart to a woman, your passion and desire and you remove your boundaries and fear, you give her a chance to do the same. You learn behaviors meant to manipulate her and only women who also need these same boundaries in place will play. This is a walk away from ourselves and it creates the illusion of love but how can it possibly create intimacy? There is such a thing as evolution. BBW's philosophy is begging us to pretend there isn't.

Conrad, I woke my husband up after typing with you last night. I asked him if he thought we were meant to be together and he said he thought it was adorable that I perceived our relationship like a fairytale and that he couldn't dream of there being any other way because I wouldn't let him sleep. But then he held me close and told me that he loved me, alway have and always will. Then I asked him if that were really possible and he said that anything different was impossible.

And so we live unhappily, happily ever-after.


----------



## greenpearl

AFEH said:


> I’ve a married couple as friends that go way back. His wife is Malay Chinese. She’s nobodies fool and she ain’t no pushover! Over a billion people in China, odds are they’re not all the same.
> 
> Bob


Bob,

We have long history. We are influenced a lot by our history. Good women and bad women, beautiful women and intelligent women, virtue women and women who cheat around................

For women who like to read and study, there is so much to learn from our history books. 

I love our history. I still love China because of our history, not because of its new wealth. 

We are also influenced by this modern society. Frankly speaking, western influence is almost all over the world now, maybe except middle east and some remote areas.


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> Trenton,
> 
> Please don't think that a lot of Chinese women are soft. China has" women and man should be equal theory" too. Chinese women enjoy a lot of social status now. There are many successful Chinese businesswomen, scientists, doctors, politicians, for brain work, if there are men, there are women. They are very outspoken too. When you are dealing with Chinese women, especially those educated ones, be careful, they are tough cookies.
> 
> But we are also influenced a lot by our history moral teaching, women should be submissive and supportive to their men at home. I don't know how those successful women run their family life. I am curious to know.
> 
> If you talk about demanding, a lot of women in this world are demanding, they have no nationality difference.
> 
> China has its own problem about high divorce rate. Modern young people are all only child at their home, they are very spoiled, they don't know how to share, neither do they know how to communicate, a lot of young people get divorced not long after they get married, they just don't know how to get along with each other.


I couldn't agree with you more but it's the general accepted selfish practices that have come into play. Everyone feels entitled to something.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Bob,
I didn't create any drama. I asked a question because I refused to comment on yours. It isn't my "MO" as you pointed out. I simply took up a new post to ask a darn question. If it is too dramatic for you, feel free not to comment on it.


----------



## Scannerguard

I don't want to muddy the waters here among the "TRUE BLUE AMERICANS" here. . .but it may not be the "truth" to say, "Socialism has failed. Capitalism has succeeded."

If you need any proof of this, just go over to yahoo.com and read about Ireland, a great capitalistic experiment, and what is happening right now in that country. Ironically, Google and Hewlett Packard, economic giants, are threatening to leave their headquarters in Ireland, if the Irish gov't raises any corporate taxes upon them to keep their country solvent.

I also submit into evidence the great Housing Bubble in the US, where we "Capitalized Profits" but "Socialized Losses."

I know know the Political Conservatives will cry, moan, plead and cajole their case to me. . .but looking at it honestly, without prejudice to one system or another, all of Europes, America's, and Asia's economies, with the exception of a few, have become "hybrids" of socialism and capitalism.

Just a side topic and inserting some truth in a thread. . .


----------



## Trenton

Scannerguard said:


> I don't want to muddy the waters here among the "TRUE BLUE AMERICANS" here. . .but it may not be the "truth" to say, "Socialism has failed. Capitalism has succeeded."
> 
> If you need any proof of this, just go over to yahoo.com and read about Ireland, a great capitalistic experiment, and what is happening right now in that country. Ironically, Google and Hewlett Packard, economic giants, are threatening to leave their headquarters in Ireland, if the Irish gov't raises any corporate taxes upon them to keep their country solvent.
> 
> I also submit into evidence the great Housing Bubble in the US, where we "Capitalized Profits" but "Socialized Losses."
> 
> I know know the Political Conservatives will cry, moan, plead and cajole their case to me. . .but looking at it honestly, without prejudice to one system or another, all of Europes, America's, and Asia's economies, with the exception of a few, have become "hybrids" of socialism and capitalism.
> 
> Just a side topic and inserting some truth in a thread. . .


I agree. Capitalism is dangerous and becoming worldwide. I know you are in the medical field so you've seen governmental welfare in practice through Medicaid, Medicare and you've seen Capitalism through health insurance. You've no idea how I equally abhor both.

I think many take terms and try to vilify them as a way to discount them. This is true for most isms.


----------



## Scannerguard

Trenton,

I actually think Australia's healthcare system, which is about 8% of GDP could be a "model" for reform. All the talk of Canada and England was misplaced IMHO when our mates down under have not a halfbad system.

Australia's system is kind of "tiered" - you have a basic level of healthcare for all available through the gov't, and supported by taxes.

That is Tier 1.

Tier 2 is for the Middle class and is "supplemented" by employers. In here, you would find dental, chiropractic, experimental cancer treatmetns perhaps. . .stuff you shouldn't be "entitled to" but you have to work for to receive. And that is fair.

Finally, Tier 3 is the rich. The rich will alwyas have the best healthcare and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Speaking as a business person too, there are some advantages of socialism too, in that it creates a society ripe for doing business.

Let's say I want to open a new chain of resteraunts called "HoagieWay", because I am not really sure what a Sub is, being from S. Jersey, and think people across the US and the world should experience the wonders of a Hoagie they build themselves instead of a sandwich with 2 slices of turkey.

Well? I have several countries to choose from to do business as I have a 500 million in capital let's say.

Do I want to do business in Antigua, let's say, where you have a few beautiful pristine resorts but the rest of the island is a Dump?

Or would I want to do business in Sweden, where they take care of the elderly and poor and my customers don't have to step over homeless people to but a Wonderful Hoagie?

The point is the FoxNewsBots dont' realize there are advantages of certain kinds of businesses in a socialist country.

Now. . .if you want to strip mine some land for some silver? Great, it doesnt' matter. I own a silver mining stock in Mexico and as a foreign investor, I certainly don't give a crap about how they mine it down in Mexico. It will be up to the people there to make rules.


----------



## greenpearl

Scannerguard said:


> I don't want to muddy the waters here among the "TRUE BLUE AMERICANS" here. . .but it may not be the "truth" to say, "Socialism has failed. Capitalism has succeeded."
> 
> If you need any proof of this, just go over to yahoo.com and read about Ireland, a great capitalistic experiment, and what is happening right now in that country. Ironically, Google and Hewlett Packard, economic giants, are threatening to leave their headquarters in Ireland, if the Irish gov't raises any corporate taxes upon them to keep their country solvent.
> 
> I also submit into evidence the great Housing Bubble in the US, where we "Capitalized Profits" but "Socialized Losses."
> 
> I know know the Political Conservatives will cry, moan, plead and cajole their case to me. . .but looking at it honestly, without prejudice to one system or another, all of Europes, America's, and Asia's economies, with the exception of a few, have become "hybrids" of socialism and capitalism.
> 
> Just a side topic and inserting some truth in a thread. . .


China had been criticized for their communist one party ruler ship, poor human rights, and many other areas, 

But I am always telling my husband, don't laugh at China. We have a very good system to choose leaders. When we see someone who has talent, the teachers start to pay attention to him or her, he or she will be cultivated from their young age. Look at our recent leaders, I am very proud of them. I don't want to mock at western leaders, but our leaders are dignified, and our government have long term goals, since they don't need to change leader ships often, they can usually achieve their goals. 

Democracy is good too in some ways, but the election process really makes me laugh. Politicians really lose people's respect by digging **** of the opponent. And I only think a few countries like US can say they have a mature system, look at Japan, Italy, and a lot of other countries, they change their leaders all the time, what good about it? 

There is no perfect system, just like there is no perfect human being. 

When people do find a good system, they can't sustain it, because people change.

Anyway, this is too far from the main topic, my fun for talking about politics here!


----------



## AFEH

Scannerguard said:


> I don't want to muddy the waters here among the "TRUE BLUE AMERICANS" here. . .but it may not be the "truth" to say, "Socialism has failed. Capitalism has succeeded."
> 
> If you need any proof of this, just go over to yahoo.com and read about Ireland, a great capitalistic experiment, and what is happening right now in that country. Ironically, Google and Hewlett Packard, economic giants, are threatening to leave their headquarters in Ireland, if the Irish gov't raises any corporate taxes upon them to keep their country solvent.
> 
> I also submit into evidence the great Housing Bubble in the US, where we "Capitalized Profits" but "Socialized Losses."
> 
> I know know the Political Conservatives will cry, moan, plead and cajole their case to me. . .but looking at it honestly, without prejudice to one system or another, all of Europes, America's, and Asia's economies, with the exception of a few, have become "hybrids" of socialism and capitalism.
> 
> Just a side topic and inserting some truth in a thread. . .


Ireland? Mortgages at NINE TIMES income over past 15 years … and that a 120% mortgage. Total unregulated madness. Now they’re giving private houses originally valued at $450,000 to council tenants and they’re bulldozing whole streets of brand spanking new houses … because nobody can offered them.

And what’s wrong with the Euro??? It’s a fantastic currency. Why even good old inefficient Greece can DEMAND that other Euro countries raise their taxes TO PAY FOR THEIR INEFFICIENCIES and STOP THEM GOING BANKRUPT!!! It’s madness.

Tax collection? Who collects taxes in Greece, Spain, Portugal? Some 500,000 people where I live haven’t paid a penny tax in 25 years!!!

And who pays for that inefficiency? The countries with the most efficient tax collection systems. So we pay our taxes to be used to pay for the running of the countries … with the most inefficient tax collection systems! Oh yes the Euro is really very good.

And even though the UK stayed out of the Euro … WE STILL HAVE TO PAY OUT TO HOLD IT UP!!! BILLIONS OF POUNDS!!!

And of course the Euro is really good for the likes of Ireland, Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy. But WAIT, is it really GOOD for those countries. NO! Why? Because they cannot devalue their own currencies to reinvigorate their economies by making their exports cheaper and imports more expensive!!!

They cannot even pull out of the Euro now it’s no longer working for them. The financial penalties for doing so are truly MASSIVE!!! They’d lose far far more than they’d ever gain!!!

The Euro is under so much tension it’s unbelievable. IT HASN’T WORKED AND NOW THEY WANT EVEN MORE SOVEREIGNTY FROM THE INDIVIDUAL COUNTRIES TO BE CEDED TO THE EU. IT’S A TOTAL MADNESS.

The BIG people with BIG MONEY are moving in on it, the SPECULATORS … who don’t take risks!!!

Not that it bothers me much!!!!!

That’s my little rant for the day … from across the pond.

Bob


----------



## Scannerguard

Yes. . .sorry. . .back to the topic. . .women are welcome here. . .but they have make sure the ice is fresh.


----------



## Mom6547

MEM11363 said:


> YES you are welcome.
> 
> If someone has a problem with an individual posters tone/comments etc. than the person with the problem should block the offending poster as an individual. But blocks should be based on individual behavior not the presence absence of a penis.....


How does one block an individual poster?


----------



## Conrad

Scanner,

You nailed it.

Market-oriented capitalism is indeed a horrible system. It's simply the most efficient at delivering the best for the most.

If you want to share scarcity? Go with he public sector.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

If I wanted to discuss the merits/demerits of Socialism, I would have posted a question in the Politics and Religion forum.


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> If I wanted to discuss the merits/demerits of Socialism, I would have posted a question in the Politics and Religion forum.


It's true, this is more about women not being welcome but BBW's philosophy really closely mimics Leo Strauss and his philosophies where psychological to begin with.

Brennan, excuse me in advance for what's below...but I promise it correlates to women and the treatment of women! 

Scanner, you mentioned Sweden. I'm Swedish actually and have many friends from Sweden. I think they are an amazing model of a nation to learn from. Women truly do have equal rights there which is unfathomable to most women including us in the United States. Men are raised to respect women and treat them as actual equals rather than something to be possessed. 

I remember learning the Linux based Susie operating system with a group of young men from Sweden. I wasn't very familiar with Linux and was struggling to learn it. They completely wiped out the kde so that all I could see is the command prompt. I remember trying to play them with my femininity to get them to help me and they wouldn't have it at all. At first I was actually insulted until I realized it was because they were treating me equally. We later talked about this and their views on women because it was so striking to me. There laws on prostitution are revolutionary, men and women are expected to have equal burdens when it comes to family. So many more interesting & independent ongoings.


----------



## Scannerguard

> I remember trying to play them with my femininity to get them to help me and they wouldn't have it at all


Well my gosh! What rubes and brutes!

Couldn't those men see a helpless woman in front of them and understand a woman can't possibly understand how to hook a computer up with all it's wires and whatnot? I am now disappointed in the Swederers.


----------



## Trenton

Scannerguard said:


> Well my gosh! What rubes and brutes!
> 
> Couldn't those men see a helpless woman in front of them and understand a woman can't possibly understand how to hook a computer up with all it's wires and whatnot? I am now disappointed in the Swederers.


Seriously...like oh my God!


----------



## Mom6547

Trenton said:


> Although games are a part of most relationships we have, it doesn't mean we should strive to add more.


I have not followed this thread. Being the bad old meanie, it got started when I got the boot for opening my yap yet again. But I have to take objection to this. I mean really. Pictionary? Trivial Pursuit? SPOONS!

...


Levity ok here?



> Conrad, I woke my husband up after typing with you last night. I asked him if he thought we were meant to be together and he said he thought it was adorable that I perceived our relationship like a fairytale and that he couldn't dream of there being any other way because I wouldn't let him sleep. But then he held me close and told me that he loved me, alway have and always will. Then I asked him if that were really possible and he said that anything different was impossible.
> 
> And so we live unhappily, happily ever-after.


I have a strong suspicion that you and he will find your way.


----------



## Trenton

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I have not followed this thread. Being the bad old meanie, it got started when I got the boot for opening my yap yet again. But I have to take objection to this. I mean really. Pictionary? Trivial Pursuit? SPOONS!
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Levity ok here?
> 
> 
> 
> I have a strong suspicion that you and he will find your way.


You got banned..."well behaved women seldom make history." -Ulrich

I missed your banning entirely.

You don't think women and men play games when they first meet one another? Out of insecurity in the relationship, wanting to impress the other, wanting to always be seen as attractive by the other?

They should play Pictionary and Table Talk then they'd actually get to know one another better than the typical couple's games of pomp and circumstance.


----------



## Trenton

vthomeschoolmom said:


> How does one block an individual poster?


I wanted to say that I don't know but I think by clicking on their profile and hitting ignore if it's there or by going to your user panel and doing it there.

I also misread your last post, you were commenting on the games after a relationship is on a deeper level. I can admit I *cough* *cough* *feel dirty* fitness test my husband. Last night I did just that by asking him pointed questions. I don't know, I guess you can call it fishing for feelings, but I think I do test him. 

Deejo said in a previous post that the danger is if he starts failing these mini tests that resentment builds and I could see how this is reasonable but I believe that when that happens a couple relies on their commitment and deep attachment to one another to get through it.


----------



## jamesa

This thread is all over the place so I don't mind putting in my two cents worth even if it is a little off topic.

There is a lot of talk about men being dominant, and that being what women really want/need. There is also a lot of fightback from women, not suprisingly. 

I believe that we are missing the point a little in that we are not asking _who_ we should dominate. The answer, I believe, is ourselves. 

If we are to be 'real men' we need know who we are, be sure of ourselves without being arrogant, be in control without being controlling and be confident enough not to have to be dominant all the time. 

True self-confidence is very attractive to women, I doubt many will be fooled by any forced attempt to 'man up' in the long term.


----------



## Trenton

jamesa said:


> This thread is all over the place so I don't mind putting in my two cents worth even if it is a little off topic.
> 
> There is a lot of talk about men being dominant, and that being what women really want/need. There is also a lot of fightback from women, not suprisingly.
> 
> I believe that we are missing the point a little in that we are not asking _who_ we should dominate. The answer, I believe, is ourselves.
> 
> If we are to be 'real men' we need know who we are, be sure of ourselves without being arrogant, be in control without being controlling and be confident enough not to have to be dominant all the time.
> 
> True self-confidence is very attractive women.


I agree and the same is true for women.


----------



## Mom6547

Trenton said:


> My definition of a man is my husband because he's the only man I have had time to get to know but he is not at all like the men here.


Well I know that Conrad was not asking me. But my absolute model of a man is my father. Gentle, mild, slow to anger, kind and caring, generous and full of charity. Defender of human dignity in the elderly and infirm, patient teacher to children, not afraid to bust up his hands with a hammer or make a meal for 40 plus. 

Always leave your campsite neater than you found it.

Give elderly and infirm your seat if they arrive late to Church. (I don't go to church anymore, so ... bus... whatever)

The more the merrier! Everyone is always welcome.

You CAN teach girls to fish. And hike. Oy do I regret not taking him up on his offer to teach me to hunt deer.


A man is the most amazing creature in the world. Though my Dad never had, they often have gruff exteriors. Scales or fur those exteriors are meant to protect their delicate hearts. If you are lucky enough to get his heart, it is the most wonderful gift. It behooves us to cherish it as much as it deserves.

Sorry. Feeling all maudlin about my husband today. I promise to be more reasonable tomorrow.




> He's strong willed, smart & cunning, admirable, creative, empathetic, protective, understanding and deeply affectionate and thoughtful. Being here has brought us closer together because it has made me really appreciate him more. Some of these posts scare the holy hell out of me. I am in disbelief at the lack of emotion or desire for a real relationship that is not based upon manipulation of behavior.


I know some people like this in RL both male and female. So deeply formed by societal stereotypes, they miss the point. Get stuck in right fighting. More important to be RIGHT than to be happy. And never really learn to give over in love. The biggest sadness about the Conrads of the world is that they are so busy blaming that they never will learn their part and thus be able to seek happiness themselves.

This group has not so much touched me to appreciate my husband more since that epiphany happened with my participation in an earlier group. I SOOOOO hear you. I thank my lucky stars for the day I found a usenet group that saved my marriage from what I read in here day in and out.


----------



## Mom6547

BigBadWolf said:


> A woman, she will respond to male dominance, and this reponse is real and physical and emotional and is her biological heritage.


You have a set of experiences that lead you to this belief. 

You think that by virtue of not agreeing with you, one, particularly women, necessarily must not know themselves well. That is a very convenient point of view for you. It is quite easy to say those who don't agree with you must necessarily just be wrong for whatever reason.

What you don't consider is that you don't share the experiences of everyone everywhere. You have little blinders on to your one experience as if the rest of the world does not exist. I know personally and have read about many more sexually submissive men. You may chose to just except them from the ranks of "men" as some kind of aberration. Yet they live, love and have happy lives despite your definitions of what men are.

I think it is really awesome when people find a lifestyle that works for them. It sounds like what you and your wife have found exactly that. And that is awesome! But to extrapolate from that to universal truth makes no sense to me. 



> So finally, it is good to discuss these things when appropriate.


Ha! When you deign to instruct some woman.


----------



## Mom6547

Trenton said:


> I also misread your last post, you were commenting on the games after a relationship is on a deeper level. I can admit I *cough* *cough* *feel dirty* fitness test my husband. Last night I did just that by asking him pointed questions. I don't know, I guess you can call it fishing for feelings, but I think I do test him.


I really wasn't trying to say anything. Really not in my full brain today. I am looking back on this long thread for the games stuff and can't find it.

From what I THINK you are saying about games I think that they are an unhealthy manifestation of insecurity. I remember playing them in the past. If he loved me he'd... Is that what you mean by a fitness test? I guess All I feel about playing these games in the past is bad that I did it and happy that we don't do that anymore.




> Deejo said in a previous post that the danger is if he starts failing these mini tests that resentment builds and I could see how this is reasonable but I believe that when that happens a couple relies on their commitment and deep attachment to one another to get through it.


Better yet, don't play.But that's me.


----------



## Trenton

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Well I know that Conrad was not asking me. But my absolute model of a man is my father. Gentle, mild, slow to anger, kind and caring, generous and full of charity. Defender of human dignity in the elderly and infirm, patient teacher to children, not afraid to bust up his hands with a hammer or make a meal for 40 plus.
> 
> Always leave your campsite neater than you found it.
> 
> Give elderly and infirm your seat if they arrive late to Church. (I don't go to church anymore, so ... bus... whatever)
> 
> The more the merrier! Everyone is always welcome.
> 
> You CAN teach girls to fish. And hike. Oy do I regret not taking him up on his offer to teach me to hunt deer.
> 
> 
> A man is the most amazing creature in the world. Though my Dad never had, they often have gruff exteriors. Scales or fur those exteriors are meant to protect their delicate hearts. If you are lucky enough to get his heart, it is the most wonderful gift. It behooves us to cherish it as much as it deserves.
> 
> Sorry. Feeling all maudlin about my husband today. I promise to be more reasonable tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know some people like this in RL both male and female. So deeply formed by societal stereotypes, they miss the point. Get stuck in right fighting. More important to be RIGHT than to be happy. And never really learn to give over in love. The biggest sadness about the Conrads of the world is that they are so busy blaming that they never will learn their part and thus be able to seek happiness themselves.
> 
> This group has not so much touched me to appreciate my husband more since that epiphany happened with my participation in an earlier group. I SOOOOO hear you. I thank my lucky stars for the day I found a usenet group that saved my marriage from what I read in here day in and out.


Beautiful VT, really beautiful. I enjoyed reading every part of this. What an amazing father you have but he obviously raised an educated, spirited woman. I admire a few on these forums from the few interactions we've had including yourself, Dawn, Brennan, Sister, Catherine. I think you all echo the inner strength and beauty of women and I admire that.


----------



## Trenton

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I really wasn't trying to say anything. Really not in my full brain today. I am looking back on this long thread for the games stuff and can't find it.
> 
> From what I THINK you are saying about games I think that they are an unhealthy manifestation of insecurity. I remember playing them in the past. If he loved me he'd... Is that what you mean by a fitness test? I guess All I feel about playing these games in the past is bad that I did it and happy that we don't do that anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> Better yet, don't play.But that's me.


It does come from insecurity. I think games always do. I think the type of things I do also act to renew and keep lust alive in our marriage. They thrill me. I'm not sure if this is wrong or right even but it works for us right now.


----------



## Mom6547

Trenton said:


> Beautiful VT, really beautiful. I enjoyed reading every part of this. What an amazing father you have


Alas the verb is "had".



> but he obviously raised an educated, spirited woman. I admire a few on these forums from the few interactions we've had including yourself, Dawn, Brennan, Sister, Catherine. I think you all echo the inner strength and beauty of women and I admire that.


Well isn't that a nice complement. I watch your posts closely! I find myself doing this

Oh hell the emoticon list is too long....

What SHE said... is there an emoticon for that?


----------



## Mom6547

Trenton said:


> It does come from insecurity. I think games always do. I think the type of things I do also act to renew and keep lust alive in our marriage. They thrill me. I'm not sure if this is wrong or right even but it works for us right now.


Ah not the kind of game I was envisioning. If it works, then hell no argument.


----------



## Trenton

Sorry for your loss. What great memories he created. A life well lived when you touch so many others with great memories and made the world a better place from having lived. It's easy to get caught up in the emotions of our every day lives and lose sight of what's so important.


----------



## Deejo

Can't tell you how energizing it is to have you both here ... both married ... by your accounts very happily depending upon your mood.

And I appreciate the ease and level of comfort you display in stating what makes your men more wonderful and 'better' than the sorry, bitter, struggling, misguided, pathetic, misogynistic, broken lot you find here. You'll forgive me, I simply grabbed a potpourri of words that have been cast about through any number of threads. 

No, really, I'm happy that as many here struggle to come to terms with the gut wrenching, painful, tear-laden, self-esteem destroying, dignity ravaging, wasteland of betrayal, rejection and divorce, that we can make you feel better about your choice in men compared with those here looking for contributions that will lead to what you continuously rub in our f*cking faces that your wonderful husbands already have: women that love and admire them.

You'll excuse me, I'm going to have dinner with my girlfriend whom I want power over and obviously doesn't have a very high self esteem of her own.

Chins up! Keep up the good work! 

And no, I'm still not asking you to leave.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Can't tell you how energizing it is to have you both here ... both married ... by your accounts very happily depending upon your mood.
> 
> And I appreciate the ease and level of comfort you display in stating what makes your men more wonderful and 'better' than the sorry, bitter, struggling, misguided, pathetic, misogynistic, broken lot you find here. You'll forgive me, I simply grabbed a potpourri of words that have been cast about through any number of threads.
> 
> No, really, I'm happy that as many here struggle to come to terms with the gut wrenching, painful, tear-laden, self-esteem destroying, dignity ravaging, wasteland of betrayal, rejection and divorce, that we can make you feel better about your choice in men compared with those who here looking for contributions that will lead to what you continuously rub in our f*cking faces that your wonderful husbands already have: women that love and admire them.
> 
> You'll excuse me, I'm going to have dinner with my girlfriend whom I want power over and obviously doesn't have a very high self esteem of her own.
> 
> Chins up! Keep up the good work!
> 
> And no, I'm still not asking you to leave.


Deejo I genuinely like you. I think you are funny, witty, sincere, understanding, articulate and smart. This observation is only from chatting with you for a short time. I place weight on what you say and always consider it.

On this...

"Can't tell you how energizing it is to have you both here ... both married ... by your accounts very happily depending upon your mood."

So true, so true. So take the joy with a grain of salt. We're all wrestling with our own daemons and shortcomings.

I do have to add, why not get on GreenPearl? Have you ever seen a woman more happy about her husband and men always without fail? Do you think it's because she agrees with your theories and reiterates what you want to believe? I am just curious.


----------



## greenpearl

First, why do you get me involved? 

Second, my happiness with my husband tells men what they want to do is right. 

I am not here trying to sabotage anything.

Funny, why are you women so concerned about this MAN UP thing. If you are happy with your husbands, just live your happy life with them! Your husbands are not here trying to learn to MAN UP!

People here need advice and help. 

If you think that your life can be a role model, start your own threads and tell people how wonderful they are, so people can learn from you and use it in their life!


----------



## Deejo

Here is what I ask: "Share."

SA shares, Pearl shares, Trenton has been really open about what is going on and how it affects her and her husband. The exchanges just never seem to have the same adversarial bent. I don't mind adversarial - but if part of your concern is being lambasted for sharing something deeply personal, it ain't gonna happen. It can't happen. Nobody here, all of the male posters included is going to let someone ride rough-shod over your having taken a risk to share something deeply personal relating to how you make your husband feel, or how he makes you feel.

I'm often left with the impression that some of the female responses are the equivalent of "Neener, neener!"

I find it baffling, because you and vt are obviously articulate as well.

I like good ideas because they are good ideas - not because they are male ideas.

*Self Edit* In terms of disclosure, part of my journey has been to give significantly more weight to male ideas that I previously dismissed out of hand.

I don't care about being right. I care about what works and what doesn't. I would prefer when we can nod at each other knowing that what works for me wouldn't work for you and vice versa, rather than seeing who can get the best shot in.


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> First, why do you get me involved?
> 
> Second, my happiness with my husband tells men what they want to do is right.
> 
> I am not here trying to sabotage anything.
> 
> Funny, why are you women so concerned about this MAN UP thing. If you are happy with your husbands, just live your happy life with them!
> 
> People here need advice and help.
> 
> If you think that your life can be a role model, start your own threads and tell people how wonderful they are, so people can learn from you and use it in their life!


I brought you into it because you participate in discussions here. I never said you sabotage anything I just asked Deejo why he finds my happiness as a middle finger directed towards him and other men while your happiness is never questioned by him or other men. 

"you women"....hmmmm

I am giving advice and help as best as I can and with honesty, if you are doing the same why find me offensive just because we have varying views?

I don't think even you can believe it is right to tell me how to post or what to post, at least I hope not.

There are all kinds of people here. All people need advice and help at times. You and I are not any different here.


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> I brought you into it because you participate in discussions here. I never said you sabotage anything I just asked Deejo why he finds my happiness as a middle finger directed towards him and other men while your happiness is never questioned by him or other men.
> 
> "you women"....hmmmm
> 
> I am giving advice and help as best as I can and with honesty, if you are doing the same why find me offensive just because we have varying views?
> 
> I don't think even you can believe it is right to tell me how to post or what to post, at least I hope not.
> 
> There are all kinds of people here. All people need advice and help at times. You and I are not any different here.


I am wondering. I spend a lot of time here because I have a lot of time, no kids, no big house, loving husband is sharing house chores. 

How about you? 

So busy with your life!

How much time do you spend looking after your family?


----------



## Mom6547

Deejo said:


> No, really, I'm happy that as many here struggle to come to terms with the gut wrenching, painful, tear-laden, self-esteem destroying, dignity ravaging, wasteland of betrayal, rejection and divorce, that we can make you feel better about your choice in men compared with those here looking for contributions that will lead to what you continuously rub in our f*cking faces that your wonderful husbands already have: women that love and admire them.


Wow. We made you feel like crap. I am truly sorry. 


> You'll excuse me, I'm going to have dinner with my girlfriend whom I want power over and obviously doesn't have a very high self esteem of her own.


I hope you have a lovely time! I hope you find love and happiness. For my part, since I think your thoughts are worthwhile, I hope some day to understand them.


----------



## Mom6547

Deejo said:


> Here is what I ask: "Share."
> 
> SA shares, Pearl shares, Trenton has been really open about what is going on and how it affects her and her husband. The exchanges just never seem to have the same adversarial bent. I don't mind adversarial - but if part of your concern is being lambasted for sharing something deeply personal, it ain't gonna happen. It can't happen. Nobody here, all of the male posters included is going to let someone ride rough-shod over your having taken a risk to share something deeply personal relating to how you make your husband feel, or how he makes you feel.
> 
> I'm often left with the impression that some of the female responses are the equivalent of "Neener, neener!"
> 
> I find it baffling, because you and vt are obviously articulate as well.


Share.... as long as what we share is liked by those who are doing the receiving of the sharing.

You like SA and GP because they agree with you. That way lies pleasure. But no growth. Hate us for disagreeing with you. That is on you.



> I like good ideas because they are good ideas - not because they are male ideas.


They aren't the only ideas.



> I don't care about being right. I care about what works and what doesn't. I would prefer when we can nod at each other knowing that what works for me wouldn't work for you and vice versa, rather than seeing who can get the best shot in.


I will never understand coming to internet and hoping for happy land. Seems unrealistic. That you feel embattled I do feel sorry for. I can't change me or my ideas or my manner of speaking. Nor would I if I could. I am sorry for my part in its making you feel bad.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Here is what I ask: "Share."
> 
> SA shares, Pearl shares, Trenton has been really open about what is going on and how it affects her and her husband. The exchanges just never seem to have the same adversarial bent. I don't mind adversarial - but if part of your concern is being lambasted for sharing something deeply personal, it ain't gonna happen. It can't happen. Nobody here, all of the male posters included is going to let someone ride rough-shod over your having taken a risk to share something deeply personal relating to how you make your husband feel, or how he makes you feel.
> 
> I'm often left with the impression that some of the female responses are the equivalent of "Neener, neener!"
> 
> I find it baffling, because you and vt are obviously articulate as well.
> 
> I like good ideas because they are good ideas - not because they are male ideas.
> 
> *Self Edit* In terms of disclosure, part of my journey has been to give significantly more weight to male ideas that I previously dismissed out of hand.
> 
> I don't care about being right. I care about what works and what doesn't. I would prefer when we can nod at each other knowing that what works for me wouldn't work for you and vice versa, rather than seeing who can get the best shot in.


It might be my text then. It's not my intention to be adversarial, I'm genuinely sharing how I see things when I see them. This varies based on so much.

I am certainly sharing more good than bad. I do feel the bad could be thrown in my face. It's not a comfortable environment for me here but it really interests me to read what the men and women here write. It educates, surprises and shocks me depending on the post.

Have you ever felt that your views were discounted because of your sex? I feel this way, here. Come to think about it, it might be the reason I'm adversarial and that I am adversarial.

I'll work on my perception. OK, I'll think about it.


----------



## Deejo

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Wow. We made you feel like crap. I am truly sorry.


Nope. I'm fine. 



> I hope you have a lovely time! I hope you find love and happiness.


I've had them both ... just want to hang onto them beyond retirement.



> For my part, since I think your thoughts are worthwhile, I hope some day to understand them.


Now see, what I know of you tells me that sentence is sincere - and it's composition is 85% heartfelt sincerity and 15% snark.
and I find it 100% funny.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Have you ever felt that your views were discounted because of your sex? I feel this way, here. Come to think about it, it might be the reason I'm adversarial and that I am adversarial.
> 
> I'll work on my perception. OK, I'll think about it.


Thank you for your insight and sharing


----------



## Mom6547

Deejo said:


> Nope. I'm fine.
> 
> 
> 
> I've had them both ... just want to hang onto them beyond retirement.
> 
> 
> 
> Now see, what I know of you tells me that sentence is sincere - and it's composition is 85% heartfelt sincerity and 15% snark.
> and I find it 100% funny.


Well crap. I know I am snarky. I own that. But there was no snark in that statement whatsoever. It was 100% sincere. You are a mystery to me though I suspect that we are closer in our views than we think.


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> I am wondering. I spend a lot of time here because I have a lot of time, no kids, no big house, loving husband is sharing house chores.
> 
> How about you?
> 
> So busy with your life!
> 
> How much time do you spend looking after your family?


See Deejo? Is this not taking information I've put out there and using it against me? Why do I feel I have to justify myself if it's not?

My husband is at work, my youngest son is at a play date, my middle son is at karate, my daughter is at a friend's home working on a homework project...all already fed dinner. I miss my husband and wish he were home. I spent the day arranging the drop off and pick up of toys for a xmas party for kids while my kids were in school/pre-school and husband was at work and check in here as the site is open on my laptop.

Are you OK with this?


----------



## greenpearl

I am going to dress up like a French maid and let my KING spank my ass!

Yeah............................


----------



## Mom6547

GP you might want to seek help.


----------



## Trenton

Seriously laughing over here!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Geez, in laws come over for one last goodbye and I miss all the fun. I've been "cidered".


----------



## Conrad

vthomeschoolmom said:


> GP you might want to seek help.


She doesn't need it.


----------



## Conrad

The level of denial is breathtaking.


----------



## Trenton

I was going to start my own thread but think it would be better here, tucked away in the insanity of this thread.

Conrad, for such a logical man, you sure are willing to ignore a lot to keep firm to your logic.

I feel the desire to share with you my story in more depth because I think I may have been less than forthcoming and really only touching on the surface for fear of criticism but this is more of an injustice to me than it is to anyone who offers advice or criticizes me. As open as I am about my real life, I suppose I am a deeply private person about what pains me. It’s unfair of me to keep offering advice and leaving poignant bits of happiness about my marriage without sharing the painful side in full. This will be long but I appreciate anyone who powers through it and offers advice.

My childhood was good but not ideal. I’ve written in other posts about the abuse I faced at the hands of my father. After that happened when I was fourteen it was as if my ability to empathize became magnified. I started to feel everyone’s pain but stopped feeling my own. I am half afraid of men and half attracted to them. 

My husband was the first man I met that I was able to trust and I was 19 when I met him. Our relationship was as intense as I am. He was creative, young and idealistic and he made me feel as if I wasn’t all that different. As I got older and recognized that so many young girls had been abused, this really upset and angered me. I would have rather been alone in this. If I am defensive in these forums this might explain why. If I feel an aversion to dominance/submission philosophies this might be why. I feel that women often give up parts of themselves to please men. Women allowing this without realizing it, feeling as though they deserve it and men not recognizing this. Women are vulnerable yet resilient and powerful. This is how I see them.

So I struggled and my husband struggled with me. It was never easy. I would cry often when we made love, not out of sadness but out of joy and overwhelming feelings I couldn’t explain. My husband was the first to make me orgasm and I really didn’t think that was even a possibility for me. I think this intensity put a lot of pressure on him but he has never failed me so it’s not strange to figure in why I admire him so much.

Once we had children he began to work a lot. He felt such pressure to provide for us. I knew it but it made me feel so insecure. The early years were riddled with arguments about this but they were brutal. I was so angry that he couldn’t see my side (I sometimes still am). 

After our second son I had an emotional affair. It became very close to being physical. I did it more to get back at him than I did because I was actually attracted to the other man. He found out and was angrier than I’d ever seen him. He is still not sure whether or not I had a physical affair and won’t believe me when I say I didn’t. My husband is loyal to a fault. I have never doubted whether he was a good man. I have always doubted whether or not I was a good woman.

I then had this realization that I was sick of wallowing in self pity and told my husband I was starting a non-profit organization to try channeling some of the emotional intensity I felt. He was reluctant but eventually became very supportive. This changed the dynamic of our relationship as I suddenly had an outlet for all the overwhelming emotions I felt and he could work with me and use his strong work ethic to help our family accomplish amazing things and we have accomplished amazing things that I am so very thankful for.

We’re at a point now where things are at a tipping point and going in a better direction. In large part due to my realizations I've had on this site. We are very much in love but we are still angry at one another even if we share this intense closeness. Our sex life, through all of this, has never faltered because I feel a tremendous need to feel close to him and sex has always been my way of connecting with him. Even during the emotional affair we still were having regular sex. I would never withhold sex or use it as a bargaining tool. I enjoy it immensely and allow him to be completely dominant in this area. We’ve grown so much together in this area.

I’m still struggling with myself. Perhaps we all are, always. 
I still believe in true love. I do, despite everything, think my husband and I have it. I do feel he is my soul mate. Maybe it borders on co-dependence or some other awful psychological term but being with him makes my life better and it always has. 

When I say that being here makes me recognize that I need to work harder and see my own shortcomings more and blame him less, it’s because I recognize what we have. I’ve never analyzed or looked at it before. I just found this site at a moment of anger and I’ve enjoyed reading the stories of others. It’s not to say that I don’t admire many of the men and women here because I do. It’s more that I realized I haven’t appreciated my relationship with my husband or recognized all the amazing things that he is. 

So that is where I am at.


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> I do need some kind of help!
> 
> I need to find out how to talk to these great women!!!
> 
> Ha ha ha........................


Seriously, you have the audacity to ask me why I'm not with my family when I have children to take care of but get all type crazy when I question your dynamic on this board? I have often doubted your story because if you are a woman I find it hard to believe you've left your son behind and moved on to a life with your husband and have no problems with this. As a mother, I couldn't imagine doing this at any cost. How lonely the silence and lack of childhood laughter/tears/squeals would be for me. 

I don't buy your happy go lucky, go sex go, routine for a second. You need the attention of men and you don't care what you have to say to get it. Men enjoy it and lap it up refusing to be critical of you because you're giving them what they need but you are the moth to the flame and Vthome is the flower to the bee. The men have it backwards hence you don't like women very much. I am not jealous of you as you claim most women are, I feel sad for you.


----------



## Trenton

NoLongerSad said:


> It is possible to choose otherwise.


Absolutely.


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> Seriously, you have the audacity to ask me why I'm not with my family when I have children to take care of but get all type crazy when I question your dynamic on this board? I have often doubted your story because if you are a woman I find it hard to believe you've left your son behind and moved on to a life with your husband and have no problems with this. As a mother, I couldn't imagine doing this at any cost. How lonely the silence and lack of childhood laughter/tears/squeals would be for me.
> 
> I don't buy your happy go lucky, go sex go, routine for a second. You need the attention of men and you don't care what you have to say to get it. Men enjoy it and lap it up refusing to be critical of you because you're giving them what they need but you are the moth to the flame and Vthome is the flower to the bee. The men have it backwards hence you don't like women very much. I am not jealous of you as you claim most women are, I feel sad for you.


Wow, 

My honor!:smthumbup:

I am not bothered by SA, Nekko, Lime, and a lot of women on this forum. I like them, I love them. 

For your information!!!

I like women who I can get along with! There are a lot! Only a few I can't get along with, go figure!


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> Wow,
> 
> My honor!:smthumbup:
> 
> I am not bothered by SA, Nekko, Lime, and a lot of women on this forum. I like them, I love them.
> 
> For your information!!!


I was using your words, GP, not mine.


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> Wow,
> 
> My honor!:smthumbup:
> 
> I am not bothered by SA, Nekko, Lime, and a lot of women on this forum. I like them, I love them.
> 
> For your information!!!
> 
> I like women who I can get along with! There are a lot! Only a few I can't get along with, go figure!


Then you have changed what you once were saying and that's on you. I don't care if you have a personal relationship with the moon. Your humpity humpity is crass & exaggerated but I digress. This will get neither of us anywhere so let's just agree to disagree. I think I've made it clear how I feel and why as you have as well. There's nowhere good to go with this.


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton,

I am not going to fight with you anymore. 

If I had made my upset, I apologize!

You can choose whoever you like to be with your friends. 

It is your choice. 

I have all my right to choose who I like to talk to!

Just happens we don't click. 

Hey, this world is so big, we get along with some people, we don't get along with some people, not a big deal. 

Glad that we are not co-workers and neighbors, we don't need to see each other daily. 

I am happy about my life! No need to defend myself!


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> Trenton,
> 
> I am not going to fight with you anymore.
> 
> If I had made my upset, I apologize!
> 
> You can choose whoever you like to be with your friends.
> 
> It is your choice.
> 
> I have all my right to choose who I like to talk to!
> 
> Just happens we don't click.
> 
> Hey, this world is so big, we get along with some people, we don't get along with some people, not a big deal.
> 
> Glad that we are not co-workers and neighbors, we don't need to see each other daily.
> 
> I am happy about my life! No need to defend myself!


Yep, no worries be happy.


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton,

I had been to an overseas Chinese forum, 

Women there think I were a man, men there think I were fictional.

Only my husband and I know I am real and I am a woman. 

I don't need to make up stories for my life, I can't create another person's life.


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> Trenton,
> 
> I had been to an overseas Chinese forum,
> 
> Women there think I were a man, men there think I were fictional.
> 
> Only my husband and I know I am real and I am a woman.
> 
> I don't need to make up stories for my life, I can't create another person's life.


Wait are you done or are we continuing? Do you want to continue this? You very well may be exactly who you say you are but what I said previously was that I don't know how you do it. Deal with the loss of your son and move on to be a sex crazed, happy woman. It's not as much that I don't believe you as I believe that you have deeper issues.

This is on me though. It's just how I feel. You can be real without being real or you can have overcome great adversity and somehow come to terms with it and found happiness. 

You questioned my behavior because you said that I had a family. This had me thinking about you and your life as you've put it forward here.


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton, 

Do you know why I get bothered by some women? I hope that I don't make you upset again. 

I was on this forum in Taiwan for mainland Chinese women. I was there trying to tell them not to complain about life and their husbands, I was there trying to tell them to be positive about their life in Taiwan. Do you know what happened to me, I became their target. 


I had a lot of supporters there, women and men, but I left because I wanted to give peace to that forum. A few women there were just yelling and screaming. 

What happens on TAM is nothing compares to what happened in that forum. 

You and VT are much more civilized than them, happy to see and know. 

I blame myself for being showy and vocal, but this is me. 

I have a heart to help, but I know my thinking is so different from other people, there is no way I am able to help. 

When I see happy women here on TAM, I am happy with them together. And I respect them a lot!!!


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> Wait are you done or are we continuing? Do you want to continue this? You very well may be exactly who you say you are but what I said previously was that I don't know how you do it. Deal with the loss of your son and move on to be a sex crazed, happy woman. It's not as much that I don't believe you as I believe that you have deeper issues.
> 
> This is on me though. It's just how I feel. You can be real without being real or you can have overcome great adversity and somehow come to terms with it and found happiness.
> 
> You questioned my behavior because you said that I had a family. This had me thinking about you and your life as you've put it forward here.


Here we are not fighting, we are communicating. 

I don't mind what you think about me, I am trying to communicate with you.

I haven't lost my son, my son is in my life, my son is growing up to be a very loving teenager and soon a responsible man. I am happy to see him every Saturday.


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> Trenton,
> 
> Do you know why I get bothered by some women? I hope that I don't make you upset again.
> 
> I was on this forum in Taiwan for mainland Chinese women. I was there trying to tell them not complain about life and their husbands, I was there trying to tell them to be positive about their life in Taiwan. Do you know what happened to me, I became their target.
> 
> 
> I had a lot of supporters there, women and men, but I left because I wanted to give peace to that forum. A few women there were just yelling and screaming.
> 
> What happens on TAM is nothing compares to what happened in that forum.
> 
> You and VT are much more civilized than them, happy to see and know.
> 
> I blame myself for being showy and vocal, but this is me.
> 
> I have a heart to help, but I know my thinking is so different from other people, there is no way I am able to help.
> 
> When I see happy women here on TAM, I am happy with them together. And I respect them a lot!!!


All I can tell you is that perhaps if it's a pattern that repeats for you there is something to it.

You don't ever upset me. You sort of confuse me and make me feel sad for you. I am obviously very vocal (or typal in this case) so no worries there. 

I just feel that I'm never getting anything authentic from you. That it is a show and I do resent that you keep type casting me as a woman as if this is an excuse for you to not get along with me. Relationships are important to me. I am more than happy to have one with you but please don't sarcastically say things that you know can be offensive with a byline that says you hope they don't upset me. I'm a big person and fully capable of reading and responding to anything you put out there. All I can offer you is honesty.

Very tired as I haven't been sleeping and I'm very excited these days. Always willing to forge new friendships and reach new understandings. If you want to have a real discussion about men and women, I am always here to have this with you. Look forward to it.


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton, 

We have been crossing with each other several times already, 

I find my heart grow fond of you each time we cross each other. 

You are easy to make peace with, a very good quality for a person to have.


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> Here we are not fighting, we are communicating.
> 
> I don't mind what you think about me, I am trying to communicate with you.
> 
> I haven't lost my son, my son is in my life, my son is growing up to be a very loving teenager and soon a responsible man. I am happy to see him every Saturday.


Thank you for this, that is great. I am happy to hear it. 

Can I ask you another question? I will and if you don't want to answer it don't. If you do answer it I hope you will be honest.

If you had a physical/mental condition that made it so sex became something that was hard for you to do (I know you'll have to imagine this for a moment) and your husband said that he would have to seek solace in a prostitute as Mem did, would this be OK with you?


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> All I can tell you is that perhaps if it's a pattern that repeats for you there is something to it.
> 
> You don't ever upset me. You sort of confuse me and make me feel sad for you. I am obviously very vocal (or typal in this case) so no worries there.
> 
> I just feel that I'm never getting anything authentic from you. That it is a show and I do resent that you keep type casting me as a woman as if this is an excuse for you to not get along with me. Relationships are important to me. I am more than happy to have one with you but please don't sarcastically say things that you know can be offensive with a byline that says you hope they don't upset me. I'm a big person and fully capable of reading and responding to anything you put out there. All I can offer you is honesty.
> 
> Very tired as I haven't been sleeping and I'm very excited these days. Always willing to forge new friendships and reach new understandings. If you want to have a real discussion about men and women, I am always here to have this with you. Look forward to it.


Then lets stop and you go have a sweet dream.

I have to go to the market!


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> Trenton,
> 
> We have been crossing with each other several times already,
> 
> I find my heart grow fond of you each time we cross each other.
> 
> You are easy to make peace with, a very good quality for a person to have.


I'm a difficult person but I feel great empathy for all of us stuck on this Earth together. I know very well that a$$uming makes an a$$ out of you and me.


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> Then lets stop and you go have a sweet dream.
> 
> I have to go to the market!


If you ever want to have an in depth conversation about men and women and how you feel or want to vent or even talk about your incessant good sex with Bonker, do let me know.

Me? I won't sleep for awhile. I always have trouble sleeping. After awhile you get used to the half zombie way of looking at the world.


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> Thank you for this, that is great. I am happy to hear it.
> 
> Can I ask you another question? I will and if you don't want to answer it don't. If you do answer it I hope you will be honest.
> 
> If you had a physical/mental condition that made it so sex became something that was hard for you to do (I know you'll have to imagine this for a moment) and your husband said that he would have to seek solace in a prostitute as Mem did, would this be OK with you?


I had thought about this before. 

If one day I couldn't have sex or my husband couldn't have sex, what would I do? 

I would be devastated!

But I have told myself not to think about silly things, it is wasting my time and energy thinking about things like this. 

I just want to enjoy what I have now. 

And I also don't let my past haunt me, it is another way people do to waste their time and energy. 

I live for today, I make sure today I am happy and everything is fine, when problems happen, I'll learn to deal them then.


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> I had thought about this before.
> 
> If one day I couldn't have sex or my husband couldn't have sex, what would I do?
> 
> I would be devastated!
> 
> But I have told myself not to think about silly things, it is wasting my time and energy thinking about things like this.
> 
> I just want to enjoy what I have now.
> 
> And I also don't let my past haunt me, it is another way people do to waste their time and energy.
> 
> I live for today, I make sure today I am happy and everything is fine, when problems happen, I'll learn to deal them then.


But the question is how did it make you feel about Mem? Do you approve of what he said? 

I guess I am wondering if you accept anything a man does regardless of who he is hurting.


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> I'm a difficult person but I feel great empathy for all of us stuck on this Earth together. I know very well that a$$uming makes an a$$ out of you and me.


I used to feel that too. 

Why didn't I become a flower?

Why didn't I become a tree?

Why didn't I ..............

But now we are here as human, we have to endure our life here on earth!

I don't know what I will become in my next life.

I want to become a flower!


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> But the question is how did it make you feel about Mem? Do you approve of what he said?
> 
> I guess I am wondering if you accept anything a man does regardless of who he is hurting.


No, I don't approve MEM for what he did. What he said would hurt me as a wife. 

But it is MEM and his wife, I can't say much. 

We all make mistakes, no one is perfect, we always say things wrong and do things wrong. 

Just like us, we are learning to get along with each other, I had said quite a few things which made you feel bad, but I apologize and we learn to solve our disagreements. 

We might become great friends one day, who knows. 

So I'm sure MEM and his wife will work out their problems!!!


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> I used to feel that too.
> 
> Why didn't I become a flower?
> 
> Why didn't I become a tree?
> 
> Why didn't I ..............
> 
> But now we are here as human, we have to endure our life here on earth!
> 
> I don't know what I will become in my next life.
> 
> I want to become a flower!


Interesting take on things. I am happy being me in all my complexity. I love being able to think and feel, it thrills me. Communicating with others, sharing and creating a world together literally thrills me. I worry about the state of our world. I worry about many things but at my core, where it most matters, I am grateful for everything I have and humble before others. 

Right now I am truly appreciating you. Recognizing much of my feelings about you are on me, our feelings usually are.

I want peace but I want good peace. Peace if you have to sacrifice others is never peace for me.


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> No, I don't approve MEM for what he did. What he said would hurt me as a wife.
> 
> But it is MEM and his wife, I can't say much.
> 
> We all make mistakes, no one is perfect, we always say things wrong and do things wrong.
> 
> Just like us, we are learning to get along with each other, I had said quite a few things which made you feel bad, but I apologize and we learn to solve our disagreements.
> 
> We might become great friends one day, who knows.
> 
> So I'm sure MEM and his wife will work out their problems!!!


If I become your neighbor I promise not to call the cops with noise complaints from your incessant F*ck***. :rofl:


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> But the question is how did it make you feel about Mem? Do you approve of what he said?
> 
> I guess I am wondering if you accept anything a man does regardless of who he is hurting.


There are many things men can't do to women. 

I hate them if they do it. 

Abusing, cheating, selfish, not responsible, taking drugs, alcoholic, workaholic, greedy, ambitious................

I can't finish the list. You can add...........

But for good men, we should respect them. And forgive them for the mistakes they make. Everybody makes mistakes!


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> If I become your neighbor I promise not to call the cops with noise complaints from your incessant F*ck***. :rofl:


We have good sound proof walls.

:rofl:


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> There are many things men can't do to women.
> 
> I hate them if they do it.
> 
> Abusing, cheating, selfish, not responsible, taking drugs, alcoholic, workaholic, greedy, ambitious................
> 
> I can't finish the list. You can add...........
> 
> But for good men, we should respect them. And forgive them for the mistakes they make. Everybody makes mistakes!


Ah I am so unforgiving of a man's mistakes. This is also on me. So much more forgiving of a woman's mistakes. Thank you for this introspection. I offer that you are more forgiving of men and less so of women. Perhaps that is where our difficulties with one another comes from.


----------



## Trenton

I Facebook friend requested you. I really do appreciate your honesty and candor here. I didn't expect it of you. I apologize for jumping to conclusions like a frog without lily pads.


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> Interesting take on things. I am happy being me in all my complexity. I love being able to think and feel, it thrills me. Communicating with others, sharing and creating a world together literally thrills me. I worry about the state of our world. I worry about many things but at my core, where it most matters, I am grateful for everything I have and humble before others.
> 
> Right now I am truly appreciating you. Recognizing much of my feelings about you are on me, our feelings usually are.
> 
> I want peace but I want good peace. Peace if you have to sacrifice others is never peace for me.


Trenton,

Talking about peace, 

I really have it now. 

I don't let things bother me anymore. I don't worry about my future anymore, there is nothing I can do by worrying. Worrying about our future will only exhaust our energy. 


I have learned to forgive and forget, 

I have also learned to solve disagreements, like what happened to us. 

I have learned to love. 

It feels great to have peace in our heart. 

I read books related to wisdom everyday. I have to do it everyday, if I don't, I lose it. 

I am happy not because of what I have.

I am happy because the mental peace I have achieved through studying wisdom.


----------



## Trenton

We can't really ask for more.


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> I Facebook friend requested you. I really do appreciate your honesty and candor here. I didn't expect it of you. I apologize for jumping to conclusions like a frog without lily pads.


Ha, we are friends now, it feels great!

  

I am going to put more pictures on my face book account!


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton,

Now please go to bed and have a sweet dream, 

We can have deep conversation tomorrow!


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> Trenton,
> 
> Now please go to bed and have a sweet dream,
> 
> We can have deep conversation tomorrow!


Will do. Go to the market but do not buy frog's legs!


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> Ah I am so unforgiving of a man's mistakes. This is also on me. So much more forgiving of a woman's mistakes. Thank you for this introspection. I offer that you are more forgiving of men and less so of women. Perhaps that is where our difficulties with one another comes from.


Don't know if I am like that. 

I don't like my brothers for what they did. 

I don't like my father for that he did. 

I have little feeling for them. 

I only respect good men! And good women!!!


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> Will do. Go to the market but do not buy frog's legs!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Trenton : I LOVE your openness & humble honesty, I noticed it almost immediately after you arrived on this forum, thank you for sharing more of your story with us so we can understand you better, I do not see you as trying to hide anything, I really laughed when you said this


Trenton said:


> I think I am a b*tch who expects too much and maybe I should just accept that he's going to work late and not call me when things get busy at work. I'm working on it, I'm working on it.


 I will say the same about myself, too much of a B that expects too much sometimes, not in the same areas as you- though. 




vthomeschoolmom said:


> But my absolute model of a man is my father. Gentle, mild, slow to anger, kind and caring, generous and full of charity. Defender of human dignity in the elderly and infirm, patient teacher to children, not afraid to bust up his hands with a hammer or make a meal for 40 plus.
> 
> Always leave your campsite neater than you found it.
> 
> Give elderly and infirm your seat if they arrive late to Church. (I don't go to church anymore, so ... bus... whatever).


 I will agree with this also, this Is a great model of a GOOD man. My husband is "like this" minus making the meal for 40+.




vthomeschoolmom said:


> You like SA and GP because they agree with you. That way lies pleasure. But no growth. Hate us for disagreeing with you. That is on you.
> .


I just want to say, this is NOT really true, I do not always agree. I probably agree with 75% of the message given, I can honestly say I do not fully understand it yet. I think too much emphasis is put on the dominant sexual part of the whole message & this is what trips me up personally. 

I've done this umteen times already, but the reason I landed on TAM is #1) I've always loved forums -used to enjoy parenting, christian, photography forums, this is just a pastime I have enjoyed since discovering the net & #2) I feel I was going through a mid life crisis of sorts & my outlet was all sexual in nature , for a time I thought I had a sexual addiction & was looking for a good SEX board, I so enjoyed the seriousness on this forum, tons of intelligent people who dissect many issues, I was reeled in, I was very much enjoying my SEX obsession & wanted to Spice up our Sex life -as I generally took my husband for granted for many years -putting my kids before him & the sex was always quiet, vanilla & I was previously repressed. Realizing he was slowing down sexually & couldn’t keep up with me was a huge blow for me, went on to learn about his lower Testosterone levels (300-400 range) - Encronologist said these are typical for a man in his 60's. (He was mid 40's), but no need for treatment. So considering this, I think he keeps up pretty well. 

Pretty much the only things that HAS BOTHERED me on this forum IS some of this message .... BBW has as much came out & shared if my husband was not aggressive with me, I would loose sexual attraction for him, will resent him & he assured me , as he is a man, there is a tiger waiting to be unleased. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...inate-enough-wives-who-how-reverse-roles.html So here I was struggling to get him to be MORE of this creature that he paints with these messages, only to be pretty much let down & wanting more. It was this "TIGER" expectation, that great dominance Aggressive Primal expectation--- I HAD to let this go. I had to scale this down and be satisfied, to appreciate the LOVER he was , not what I believed he " should" be, because of what I am reading. 

For all of those listening - understand , for me, to take all of this as GOLDEN FACT & reality in every single marital situation could possibly be damaging to my own marriage & happiness. The reason I fight against some of this is the wording- I guess. My husband is a NICE man, I am not going to quit using the word NICE because of what I learned here. Obviously I WANT him to be more aggressive in bed & act like some of this stuff these men advocate for. But what am I supposed to do if he does not live up to MY expectations, if he can not pull this off to my standards or what is advocated here -to be this primal aggressive lustful selfish lover. Leave him? This philosophy was hurting how I was looking at the man I love. 

I know I am outside the box and all of this, but you will encounter OTHER MEN--GOOD MEN (I Believe my husband is a "good man" - just not a hot lusty primal tiger to BBW's standards) with the same type of personality as MY man has,just know for him - conforming & pulling this philosophy off - will be much harder, more of an uphill battle if he can even achieve it -than for the man who has HIGHER TEST in his body and a more "Extroverted" personality. Just something to think about. 

AFEH recently did a http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/19081-opposite-attract.html thread & me & Husband took the test. Out of 16 personalities, this was his - please take a moment to read ISFJ Profile and let me know if you still have advice how to get this kind of personality to be very aggressive , dominate & selfish. 

*Are we not born with our inherent personalities? * 

We laughed when we read it, because SOOOOO much I have said about him on this very forum over the last year was RIGHT there in written form, even the part about how others take them for granted ! There simply is value in every person, every man if he is a Responsible man, Loving and Good to others. My husband is more aggressive in patience , love & duty than anything else. 

He IS a "good man" too. And I know most of you agree with this, not all here can EVER reach the heights of the Big Bad Wolf.


----------



## greenpearl

SA,

Let's call cease fire.  

Men and women are actually very dependent on each other. 

It is not good for us to be in war. 

Trenton and I have worked out our disagreements. I feel very happy for what we achieved today. 

VT, we are not enemies, there is no need for us to argue back and forth. 

If we don't like the word " male dominant", let's use a different word. 

I like male confidence better. 

It is important for our men to be confident in our relationship, it is important for us to be confident in our relationship too. 

We as women should also be confident with what we have. 

We are all unique to our husbands, right now, there is nobody can replace our position in each other's life.

What BBW is telling men to do doesn't threaten our position at all. 

When our husbands are happy, they have more energy to make us happy, then we are happy!

Our main goal in this world is to be HAPPY and PEACEFUL.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

greenpearl said:


> SA,
> 
> Let's call cease fire.
> 
> Men and women are actually very dependent on each other.
> 
> It is not good for us to be in war.


Greenpearl, I fail to see how I am at war here. Just sharing how the message has affected ME personally. If you find this completely irrelevant & others do also, that is fine. I just wanted to share. 

I am still happy & peaceful.


----------



## greenpearl

SimplyAmorous said:


> Greenpearl, I fail to see how I am at war here. Just sharing how the message has affected ME personally. If you find this completely irrelevant & others do also, that is fine. I just wanted to share.
> 
> I am still happy & peaceful.


SA,

I didn't mean you. 

You get along with all of us well, this is something great about you. 

I was asking all of the ladies and gentlemen involved in this!

Sorry, I didn't address it clearly.



All of us have something pleasant and something not that pleasant, if we all realize it and we all respect one another, we will make TAM is very appealing community for us to be.


----------



## Mom6547

Conrad said:


> The level of denial is breathtaking.


I am curious that you assume denial when you have no real way to know others just don't have a different set of experiences.

I am not sure precisely what you mean by *need* a man. The word need is another word that is used willy nilly. I NEED to eat and drink. If I don't, my life will end. My life won't end without a man, but may be a nasty useless shell of existence without SOME form of love.

I am pretty sure my lesbian friends don't feel that they need a male mate.


----------



## Mom6547

greenpearl said:


> First, why do you get me involved?
> 
> Second, my happiness with my husband tells men what they want to do is right.
> 
> I am not here trying to sabotage anything.
> 
> Funny, why are you women so concerned about this MAN UP thing. If you are happy with your husbands, just live your happy life with them! Your husbands are not here trying to learn to MAN UP!


I am not certain who is concerned. Most of this thread happened when I was out of town. I can tell you what *I* am here for. I love discussions. I like my neurons firing like rockets about topics that interest me. Two of my favorite topics are marriage relationships and parenting. 




> People here need advice and help.
> 
> If you think that your life can be a role model, start your own threads and tell people how wonderful they are, so people can learn from you and use it in their life!


Well I am sorry that some sour grapes came into this thread. That is unfortunate. It is true that people come to these places for advice. I am truly grateful that such things exist as back in the day one helped me immensely. 

The thing is, when I see someone give advice that I disagree with, I consider it *useful* to posit a counter position. The original poster is going to have to filter any advice and use what is best for him and her in any event. It does no harm to the the other opinion holder. Or it shouldn't, in my opinion.


----------



## Mom6547

greenpearl said:


> All of us have something pleasant and something not that pleasant,


Has ANYONE had anything unpleasant to say about SA? She seems to be unique in her ability to agree OR disagree with grace. The rest of us are stuck with the occasional unpleasant nettles.


----------



## greenpearl

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Has ANYONE had anything unpleasant to say about SA? She seems to be unique in her ability to agree OR disagree with grace. The rest of us are stuck with the occasional unpleasant nettles.


  

VT,
We really have to give SA this honor! 
She always tells me she likes to debate, I thought debate is arguing, so I keep on telling her I don't like to debate, actually I am big into it. 

We had totally opposite opinion at the beginning, so right away I viewed you as my enemy, which is something I shouldn't have done. We are all here trying to share! 

What happened today helped me understand many things. We can be totally different, but we can still be friends, as long as we respect one another's difference. 

Ignoring is not the best way to solve problems, it applies in many relationships, I wanted to leave you guys alone, but I couldn't. And ignoring will not give us peace here. 

I really got Trenton upset today, I could have just walked away, but then Trenton and I would still be mad at each other. I didn't know what happened, I came back and apologized to Trenton, and the great thing about Trenton is she lets things go fast, we started communicating, I started to tell her why I am like this, cleared our misunderstanding. I think some of you think that I hate women, this is really not true. Very often I feel sad that we as women are in a weak position, and we are helpless when we are in a bad relationship. MEN at least can learn to MAN UP and gain their positions back. When we are stuck, we are stuck. 

Anyway, back to the incident today, do you see any similarities if we put this and our marriage disagreement together to compare? Some couples choose not to speak out, choose to put up with, choose to ignore. It will not solve their problem. Trenton and I got each other upset, but then two of us sat down and started to tell each other why we did what we did, we now become friends, I feel close to you now, too. I am sure in the future when we read each other's posts, we will just respect each other's opinion, we won't take it offensively. We might still disagree about certain things, but we will be in a much more peaceful term. Same thing with a marriage. 

And there is something else related to new relationships, we don't know each other's back ground, I only found out some important information about you today, if I had known that long time ago, I would have had a different approach when I read your posts. You and Trenton don't know much about my back ground either, you didn't know why I am like this. So new couples are the same, when they just get married, they really need time and conversation to help them understand each other better. 

VT, from now on, I will respect your posts even though we might disagree. 

Pearl


----------



## greenpearl

NoLongerSad said:


> Can you do it "ninja style"?


What's that? 

We do have good sound proof wall. 

We live in a tall concrete apartment building. 

Our apartment is facing out, our neighbors can't hear anything!


----------



## Conrad

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I am curious that you assume denial when you have no real way to know others just don't have a different set of experiences.
> 
> I am not sure precisely what you mean by *need* a man. The word need is another word that is used willy nilly. I NEED to eat and drink. If I don't, my life will end. My life won't end without a man, but may be a nasty useless shell of existence without SOME form of love.
> 
> I am pretty sure my lesbian friends don't feel that they need a male mate.


I guess you don't understand most of the posts here.


----------



## greenpearl

NoLongerSad said:


> It was a joke. Here's an excerpt from wikpedia:


:rofl:

I guess I can't.


----------



## Mom6547

greenpearl said:


> VT,
> We really have to give SA this honor!
> She always tells me she likes to debate, I thought debate is arguing, so I keep on telling her I don't like to debate, actually I am big into it.
> 
> We had totally opposite opinion at the beginning, so right away I viewed you as my enemy, which is something I shouldn't have done. We are all here trying to share!
> 
> What happened today helped me understand many things. We can be totally different, but we can still be friends, as long as we respect one another's difference.


I agree that respecting differences is all it takes. Perhaps it is a language thing, but when you say "women should" I feel that you AREN'T respecting differences. If you were to say that in my marriage, the model of a dominant male works very well... well I could have no objection to that. But when you say "women are" and "women should" you are saying I am and I should. I know I am NOT,, and I know I definitely should not.

Does that make sense?






> I really got Trenton upset today, I could have just walked away, but then Trenton and I would still be mad at each other.


Are you somewhat new to internet forums? It can be easy to take things personally. Over time, I have found it easier and easier to just let stuff go.



> I think some of you think that I hate women, this is really not true. Very often I feel sad that we as women are in a weak position, and we are helpless when we are in a bad relationship.


I don't accept that. I have never been in a weak position in my life. I have never once been helpless. I have had rough times, assault, crappy boyfriends whatever. But I have always been self sufficient enough to walk away. 

My daughter won't be raised to rely on a man for her income, her self esteem or anything. I DO feel sorry for girls who are raised to see themselves as a man extension. 

Marriage doesn't have to be an exchange of weakness or debt. It can be the sharing of life and love. THAT is what I hope for both son and daughter.




> MEN at least can learn to MAN UP and gain their positions back. When we are stuck, we are stuck.


I have never been stuck. Though I AM lucky not to live in Iran or such. They really ARE stuck. I don't know what it is like in China.



> Anyway, back to the incident today, do you see any similarities if we put this and our marriage disagreement together to compare? Some couples choose not to speak out, choose to put up with, choose to ignore. It will not solve their problem. Trenton and I got each other upset, but then two of us sat down and started to tell each other why we did what we did, we now become friends, I feel close to you now, too. I am sure in the future when we read each other's posts, we will just respect each other's opinion, we won't take it offensively.


What I am going to say next is so ripe with the opportunity for misunderstanding... I am going to try and say it anyway.

In my view, an opinion is not worthy of respect simply because someone has it. There are opinions that are dangerous and wrong. An example of being able to respect your opinion would be if your opinion were that YOUR choices are ONE model of a good marriage. Sharing how that works for you and your husband and your attitudes is very easy to respect.

If your opinion is that your model is the one that SHOULD be followed, that women SHOULD act a certain way, well I can't respect that opinion. That is sexism and is wrong and dangerous as we discussed in the other thread. The host of individual and societal injustice that that leads to, for both men AND women, is just too much.






> We might still disagree about certain things, but we will be in a much more peaceful term. Same thing with a marriage.


I am sorry your peace was challenged! I have been doing this internet group thing long enough that a discussion may tickle my brain, but it does not interfere with my regular life or my blood pressure.



> And there is something else related to new relationships, we don't know each other's back ground, I only found out some important information about you today, if I had known that long time ago, I would have had a different approach when I read your posts.


I cannot imagine what I said that would cause you to do one thing differently! 



> VT, from now on, I will respect your posts even though we might disagree.
> 
> Pearl


Thank you. I will try. It remains to be seen how I fare!


----------



## Mom6547

Conrad said:


> I guess you don't understand most of the posts here.


I have never seen anything from you that is more than one or two sentences. Perhaps there is nothing to understand but cryptic, angry sound bites.


----------



## Trenton

He's like Yoda if Yoda were an evil guy who wanted to rule the Amazonian women's complex so bad that he used the force to take over the intercom system and then drove them insane with pointless one liners that only he understood. Yep.


----------



## Mom6547

What I don't understand is why he has categorized me as some angry feminazi. Is my writing really that unintelligible?


----------



## Trenton

No. He is really that angry at any woman who challenges his new doctrine. They must be feminist, angry women to not understand the beauty and challenge the voice of the Man Up doctrine! The ignorance is horrifying!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Well, if Scanner where here today to write me a script and Conrad was here to fill it, they would be my heroes. Woke up this morning feeling like I had been run over by something and low and beyond I have a fever of 102. Big work deadline tomorrow and just typing hurts right now. Boo.

And my car battery died apparently last night. My neighbor had to take my son to school. So I am stuck. Again, boo.


----------



## Conrad

Brennan said:


> Well, if Scanner where here today to write me a script and Conrad was here to fill it, they would be my heroes. Woke up this morning feeling like I had been run over by something and low and beyond I have a fever of 102. Big work deadline tomorrow and just typing hurts right now. Boo.


Brennan,

Start with 4 ibuprofen 200mg (yes, 4)

Do you have congestion or cough?

Plenty of water.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> Brennan,
> 
> Start with 4 ibuprofen 200mg (yes, 4)
> 
> Do you have congestion or cough?
> 
> Plenty of water.


Thanks Conrad. Taking Tylenol. None of those symptoms, yet. Leaking eyes, nose and a terrible scratchy throat. Fever, chills, aching. 
Yes, drinking lots of water.


----------



## Conrad

Brennan said:


> Thanks Conrad. Taking Tylenol. None of those symptoms, yet. Leaking eyes, nose and a terrible scratchy throat. Fever, chills, aching.
> Yes, drinking lots of water.


Tylenol won't help.

May reduce fever, but it does not shrink swelling.

If you can find some crummy old aspirin laying around, 3 of those is almost as effective as the 4 ibuprofen.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> Tylenol won't help.
> 
> May reduce fever, but it does not shrink swelling.
> 
> If you can find some crummy old aspirin laying around, 3 of those is almost as effective as the 4 ibuprofen.


Oh, ok! Yes, plenty of generic aspirin here. Hmm, I thought Tylenol was better. Little did I know. Thank you.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Sorry to hijack my own thread....carry on.


----------



## Trenton

Oh man, feel better Brennan. Take a hot bath, chicken noodle soup and hot tea with lemon and honey. It won't cure you but will make you feel better


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Thanks Trenton. I am wearing yoga pants, socks, a turtle neck, a sweater, a jacket and a blanket thrown on top of all that. I am drinking hot honey water and I STILL cannot warm up. It's all glamour with me!


----------



## Trenton

Ah yes, no worries I'm in similar attire and don't have a sick excuse.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Besides Conrad's sage advice, you know what else makes a fever/cold feel better? Hot rum. 
Our obnoxious cat attacked the Christmas tree and ornaments went flying. Grabbed a glass and the rum, heated it up. Took 3 sips, felt warm and toasty and spent the better part of an hour cleaning up the mess. The cat is still alive because of Captain Morgan.


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> Besides Conrad's sage advice, you know what else makes a fever/cold feel better? Hot rum.
> Our obnoxious cat attacked the Christmas tree and ornaments went flying. Grabbed a glass and the rum, heated it up. Took 3 sips, felt warm and toasty and spent the better part of an hour cleaning up the mess. The cat is still alive because of Captain Morgan.


Ooooh weeeeee you need a vacation! Why is it when vacations are needed most they seem the farthest away.

We decorated for Xmas two weekends ago but still have to get the tree. Think about it like this, at least you already have the tree and it's decorated! LOL little consolation I'm sure.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Ooooh weeeeee you need a vacation! Why is it when vacations are needed most they seem the farthest away.
> 
> We decorated for Xmas two weekends ago but still have to get the tree. Think about it like this, at least you already have the tree and it's decorated! LOL little consolation I'm sure.


You don't say. Some of those smashed ornaments are hand blown glass ornaments that my Mother gave me as a little girl, that were made at Kosta Boda in Sweden. When I saw what happened, I just grabbed a glass and downed a few sips. In the grand scheme of things, it's only glass. That's what my head is telling me, all hopped up on aspirin, Dayquil and rum. I am sure later, I will feel a bit different about the cat.


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> You don't say. Some of those smashed ornaments are hand blown glass ornaments that my Mother gave me as a little girl, that were made at Kosta Boda in Sweden. When I saw what happened, I just grabbed a glass and downed a few sips. In the grand scheme of things, it's only glass. That's what my head is telling me, all hopped up on aspirin, Dayquil and rum. I am sure later, I will feel a bit different about the cat.


Super duper suckssss!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Super duper suckssss!


Yeah well my husband's last day is December 31st at his company (twice absorbed) for 13 years. Some sand and heat isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. 
Oh, he finalized his resume last night after his father checked it out and my husband sent it off to his former recruiter and has had 19 requests to interview. He will not stay unemployed long. He contacted everybody he knows in the industry and 42 people have said "what's you email address, I will write you a letter of recommendation". So far, being at home sick today, I have received 12. The CEO of his former company wrote the best. The CIO wrote the second best. 
This man is revered, loved and totally respected in his field. I will be his rock, as I always have. We work well together when our backs are against the wall. We come out swinging.


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> Yeah well my husband's last day is December 31st at his company (twice absorbed) for 13 years. Some sand and heat isn't that important in the grand scheme of things.
> Oh, he finalized his resume last night after his father checked it out and my husband sent it off to his former recruiter and has had 19 requests to interview. He will not stay unemployed long. He contacted everybody he knows in the industry and 42 people have said "what's you email address, I will write you a letter of recommendation". So far, being at home sick today, I have received 12. The CEO of his former company wrote the best. The CIO wrote the second best.
> This man is revered, loved and totally respected in his field. I will be his rock, as I always have. We work well together when our backs are against the wall. We come out swinging.


Wonderful news all around and unsurprising, minus his neglect on adoring you (which is huge), he sounds like a great man.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Wonderful news all around and unsurprising, minus his neglect on adoring you (which is huge), he sounds like a great man.


Right now, I could care less about me. It is about him. I love him, adore him, revere him and I want his world to be normal again. 
I have always been his behind the scenes "push" if you will. I have connections and I have rallied them up. He respects me and my opinions and trusts that I always look out for him. He knows that who I rally up will truly have his best interest at heart. 
We'd be in politics if he wasn't so honest and I didn't call out bull**** when I saw it.


----------



## Deejo

Dude looks like Tom Brady for Cripe's sake ... and you guys have a jacuzzi. Those things are worth fighting for.


----------



## Trenton

Great things Brennan. I hope it's not the lethal Tylenol/rum combo talking! haha

Seriously, strange as it sounds, maybe this is what you two needed.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Dude looks like Tom Brady for Cripe's sake ... and you guys have a jacuzzi. Those things are worth fighting for.


Duh, Deejo! Did I ever think of tossing him aside...no! Hot tub is ready for tonight. So is lasagna and a salad. Being home stinks but what else am I going to do?!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Dude looks like Tom Brady for Cripe's sake ... and you guys have a jacuzzi. Those things are worth fighting for.


And it's not a Jacuzzi, it's a Caldera. **Wink**
And yes, the lasagna is made by me. 4 types of cheeses actually.


----------



## greenpearl

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I agree that respecting differences is all it takes. Perhaps it is a language thing, but when you say "women should" I feel that you AREN'T respecting differences. If you were to say that in my marriage, the model of a dominant male works very well... well I could have no objection to that. But when you say "women are" and "women should" you are saying I am and I should. I know I am NOT,, and I know I definitely should not.
> 
> Does that make sense?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you somewhat new to internet forums? It can be easy to take things personally. Over time, I have found it easier and easier to just let stuff go.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't accept that. I have never been in a weak position in my life. I have never once been helpless. I have had rough times, assault, crappy boyfriends whatever. But I have always been self sufficient enough to walk away.
> 
> My daughter won't be raised to rely on a man for her income, her self esteem or anything. I DO feel sorry for girls who are raised to see themselves as a man extension.
> 
> Marriage doesn't have to be an exchange of weakness or debt. It can be the sharing of life and love. THAT is what I hope for both son and daughter.
> 
> 
> 
> I have never been stuck. Though I AM lucky not to live in Iran or such. They really ARE stuck. I don't know what it is like in China.
> 
> 
> What I am going to say next is so ripe with the opportunity for misunderstanding... I am going to try and say it anyway.
> 
> In my view, an opinion is not worthy of respect simply because someone has it. There are opinions that are dangerous and wrong. An example of being able to respect your opinion would be if your opinion were that YOUR choices are ONE model of a good marriage. Sharing how that works for you and your husband and your attitudes is very easy to respect.
> 
> If your opinion is that your model is the one that SHOULD be followed, that women SHOULD act a certain way, well I can't respect that opinion. That is sexism and is wrong and dangerous as we discussed in the other thread. The host of individual and societal injustice that that leads to, for both men AND women, is just too much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry your peace was challenged! I have been doing this internet group thing long enough that a discussion may tickle my brain, but it does not interfere with my regular life or my blood pressure.
> 
> 
> I cannot imagine what I said that would cause you to do one thing differently!
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. I will try. It remains to be seen how I fare!


VT,

Thank you!

I am new to forums. I didn't touch Internet much until this May. I was all shocked when I saw so many people are complaining about life. I was going to Chinese forums, I was so so so shocked to see all those unhappy people as they showed. I got lost. And tell you honestly, no matter they are rich or poor, married or single, educated or not, no matter what, they are complaining, that's why I know people who are rich may not be happy. I knew that long time ago, but words from their mouths approved what I read from books. There is a forum for over seas Chinese, most Chinese over seas are high achievers in their life, a lot of PH.Ds there, but look at their life, they are just not much different. Anyway, seeing all the misery people are feeling, I am lost. I tried to post Bible scriptures, I tried to post Buddhism stories, few people paid attention to it. Only my jokes and sex stuff caught their attention. Of course, my positive attitude about life caught their attention, too. 

I have told SA, I don't have much experience interacting with people, I am still learning. TAM is also new to me, because this is a different culture, we grew up by different teaching. 

For opinions, I have a new approach now, once a wise man told me that people might have different opinions from us, we don't agree, but we should respect them. Everybody has their right to have their opinion. This really helps me understand what is around me. We can't think that our opinion is right, it is just our opinion, it is right in our eye, may not be in their eye. We have to be objective. So I said I am happy reading posts from people who agree with me. He said you learn more from people who don't agree with you. This is so TRUE. Now I really have to learn how to respect people who have different opinions. I get worked up easily, another area I have to work on. 

When I post, I say too randomly, this is something I shouldn't do. Again, this is my lack of forum experience. 

In a marriage, I think both husband and wife should feel confident and secure about themselves. Both of them should achieve their happy mind individually, don't blame the partner for their unhappy mood. When you achieve you inner peace, it is easy for you to feel happy with your partner. My opinion!


----------



## Conrad

Brennan said:


> Duh, Deejo! Did I ever think of tossing him aside...no! Hot tub is ready for tonight. So is lasagna and a salad. Being home stinks but what else am I going to do?!


Stay with the aspirin


----------



## Mom6547

greenpearl said:


> When I post, I say too randomly, this is something I shouldn't do. Again, this is my lack of forum experience.


Your sentence is not one I would write. Randomly might not be the word I would chose. Have we figured out that i am kind of anal about language. But I DEFINITELY speak quickly and regret later. I was even worse when I first started on internet groups! I so hear you there.



> In a marriage, I think both husband and wife should feel confident and secure about themselves. Both of them should achieve their happy mind individually, don't blame the partner for their unhappy mood. When you achieve you inner peace, it is easy for you to feel happy with your partner. My opinion!


I agree. CHeers.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Hey, he sent out an email to 148 contacts and 102 wrote back to ask him send them his resume. Like I said, he is not a moron, nor an idiot. He is a MAN. One of the people who emailed him is FAMOUS!!!! How in the hell he got hubbies resume is beyond me?!.


----------



## greenpearl

Brennan said:


> Hey, he sent out an email to 148 contacts and 102 wrote back to send them his resume. Like I said, he is not a moron, nor an idiot. He is a MAN. One of the people who emailed him is FAMOUS!!!! How in the hell he got hubbies resume is beyond me?!.


Happy for you!   

He'll land a job pretty soon!!!

Right now the job market is good!!!

Brennan, when you say good things about your husband, it makes me feel that you are happy with him. 

Happy for you!!!


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## Therealbrighteyes

greenpearl said:


> Happy for you!
> 
> He'll land a job pretty soon!!!
> 
> Right now the job market is good!!!
> 
> Brennan, when you say good things about your husband, it makes me feel that you are happy with him.
> 
> Happy for you!!!


Thank you GP. He will get a BETTER job for sure!!!!!


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## Trenton

Still wish you were coming to Jersey! You'd love our monthly LSF women's meetings.


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## Conrad

Trenton said:


> Still wish you were coming to Jersey! You'd love our monthly LSF women's meetings.


I'll bet those are a real hoot.


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## SimplyAmorous

greenpearl said:


> So I said I am happy reading posts from people who agree with me. *He said you learn more from people who don't agree with you.* This is so TRUE. Now I really have to learn how to respect people who have different opinions.


I say a Hearty amen to this, you are growing Greenpearl !!


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## greenpearl

SimplyAmorous said:


> I say a Hearty amen to this, you are growing Greenpearl !!


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## ralk

Perfect heading/title to encourage women into the forum


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## Lon

ralk said:


> Perfect heading/title to encourage women into the forum


If you hadn't have resurrected this thread which died a year and a half ago nobody would have noticed.


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