# Suspicious minds



## davidd12

Ok, so I've been married for 2 years. We have been together for 6. There have been a couple of instances where I've suspected something was happening, but couldn't prove it.

The first was when she went to Hawaii and came back with a bruise on her wrist. She claims that she walked into a pole while texting, but the bruise didn't seem right. She also didn't tell me about it for a day after she returned and waited until her friend was there and showed her before I even noticed it. While that seemed and felt harmless enough she had mentioned that she was going out with a couple of guy friends that she knew from high school that now lived in Hawaii. When she brought it up she kind of got defensive about it when I wasn't even worried about it. She didn't call me the next day and barely texted me but had been religious about it the entire trip. End of story I loved her and let it go.

Fast forward to moving day. She tells me a friend of hers is coming over to help pack. No worries. Her friend is a known lesbian that has a crush, but my wife is clear that she has no interest in woman. When I get home, her friend isn't there and packing seemed to have not gotten very far. What raise the suspicion is when I went into the bedroom and a towel is on the floor. There also looks like knee marks by the towel, small indents in the carpet. I inspect the towel and notice it smells pretty strong like well how do I say it without getting censored, it generally has a pretty obvious smell. The friend comes over later saying she got off work late. She texted my wife at 6:30am that day and the prior day she said was off at noon but didn't come over till 7. Again, I'm just being suspicious, I love my wife and I'm connecting dots because it doesn't make sense so my brain rationalizes the worst.

Go forward to a month after out first anniversary. Things has been going really well. Then her cousin moved in with us and we kind of staled out with a child and another person in the house. One day she comes home and has a small finger tip sized bruise on her butt cheek. I ask her what it is and she says it is a pimple and got angry that I called out her flaw(it wasn't a pimple). A week later she has another bruise on the front of her leg that she says was from running into something. A few more days later she has another bruise on her back, like she was pushed into a bar, a straight line bruise on her back, she has no explanation for that. During this time we have our longest dry spell to that point of not having sex. The only thing she did was oral once out of the blue, she had done that once maybe twice in the prior 5 years. I was happy about that, so the next time we have sex, she requests that we turn all the light off. That has never been a request before. It was totally black and I couldn't see a thing and I'll add has never happened since. She also works late a few nights and this guy is with her. She also told me about him and his time in the army, and how he had scares from wounds he got. A little later she was talking with my daughter about how sexy scars are on a man. While I'm suspicious at this point the event that brings it all to a head was when he quit all of a sudden and got a job with the feds, I've had people get hired for the feds and they call their current boss to get the low down on the employee usually multiple times and always a paper document, but she never got those calls or document. So then she bought him a gift for this girlfriend (I worked for Tiffany & Co at the time and they have an employee store where she got a $15 item) explaining he is poor and loves his girlfriend and it was for her birthday. I made a comment when we were joking saying at least you got laid for it, like I was referencing him as the person I was talking to, because the prior interaction was related to him in that sense. She got real quiet and inverted for a second which isn't her and at that moment I knew I struck a cord. I accused her at that moment of sleeping with him. She denied it and said he was gross, but every accord I have heard was that he was very handsome, well built and a very nice guy.

So here I am, a year later and this still bothers me. In my mind I'm sure she cheated, and I can get past it except when I have time and it pops in my mind. If I had to bet my life one way or the other I would bet she did at least one of those times if not all of them, and it kills me. I don't know what to do. She is my wife, I've been divorced once (not for anything like this) and feel she is my best friend in the world. Yet I have this horrible gut feeling on this.


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## Divinely Favored

You do not have to rationalize the worst, she had sex in your bed. I bet she knew the friend was going to be late and army boy came by for an interlude. You should DNA the children and require a poly. The various bruses are too many flags along with little sex and wanting to turn lights out so she could fantasize she was being screwed by army boy, not you. You should have had the towel tested for semen.


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## manfromlamancha

Ask her to take a polygraph test - her response should tell you volumes!

What would you do if you find that she has been screwing around ?


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## Lostinthought61

Put it the line and tell poly or divorce make the choice....tell you think she cheated and if your wrong you will apologize but if your right she has one chance of coming clean. Then dump her ass


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## G.J.

Have you been through her phone and email accounts going back as far as you can

If you haven't got the passwords try to get them from her when she types them in if its possible with out alerting her

Has she any friends that she has broken up with over the last few years as they may be willing to talk

Shame you didn't buy a sperm kit and tested the towel

Did her under wear get sexy at any time when she didn't come near you


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## davidd12

So I couldn't sleep and I brought up the poly test this morning. She said sure but then bracketed that with it will be a waste of money. She then said it is going to put a strain on our relationship and I asked why. Her response was because I don't trust her and it will make her question our relationship. 

So any recommendations on polygraph for Phoenix az?


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## davidd12

What made me ask was I asked myself if I was asked what would I do. I would do anything to help her and I framed it after being asked several times that it would help me get past my issues in the past and trust her more.


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## 225985

davidd12 said:


> So I couldn't sleep and I brought up the poly test this morning. She said sure but then bracketed that with it will be a waste of money. She then said it is going to put a strain on our relationship and I asked why. Her response was because I don't trust her and it will make her question our relationship.
> 
> So any recommendations on polygraph for Phoenix az?


So she said Yes to poly, but is trying to talk you out of it "waste of money" or "she will feel you do not trust her".

Well, my friend, YOU do not think it is a waste of money and YOU already do not trust her. 

Maybe you are going overboard on the impressions in towels or carpet. But the bruises are another story. Do you think they are from rough sex with OM?

Where are you today with her? Are you still having sex with lights off? Is she still showing mysterious bruises? Is she secretive with her phone?


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## MattMatt

Any more mysterious bruises?

These can be a sign of poor health BTW so generally they need to be checked out.

Of course they can be evidence of cheateritis.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OldWolf57

Sorry you here, but you being managed.

Why didn't YOU tell her you already questioning it, that's why YOU want the poly.

Have you ever heard of the word aggressive. That's what you do when you KNOW in your gut.
You man up, not get defensive.

Go back and write down the the times of suspension, go over them with her, and say prove me wrong.

You said she is your best friend, but would a real best friend betray you??
You also right in that she should want to assure you she has be faithful.
Instead she has you on the defensive.

Dude, she running the CLASSIC cheaters script on you. "when caught, go on the attack."

You made the mistake of letting things slide, so now she knows you are afraid to rock the boat, and is calling your bluff.

You can do what you have always done, and continue to be her fool, or finally act like a husband with some self respect, and see if this marriage is worth protecting.

Little clue, Women are not attractive to doormats, or respect them.
They housebreak them, allow them to pay their bills, and take care of their kids, but they DON'T respect them, or be faithful to them. 

Want to get her attention, and on the defensive???

Tell her you are setting up the poly, AND DNA'ing the daughter.

Put yourself back on the offensive.


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## Lostinthought61

BTW check her browser history for topics like "how to pass a polygraph"


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## BookOfJob

manfromlamancha said:


> Ask her to take a polygraph test - her response should tell you volumes!
> .......


C'mon folks, is this the best *first thing* to do?

I'd vote for going dark, getting a VAR, and digging deeper.


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## G.J.

BookOfJob said:


> C'mon folks, is this the best first thing to do?
> 
> I'd vote for going dark, getting a VAR, and digging deeper.


Too late he's already talked to her but yes he should have dug first and exhausted all other avenues


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## BookOfJob

G.J. said:


> Too late he's already talked to her but yes he should have dug first and exhausted all other avenues


Well, it happens.

However, I suppose I can still vote for the *same thing* for the best second thing to do. Go dark, get a VAR, and dig deeper.


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## G.J.

:smthumbup:


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## manfromlamancha

The reason I went straight for the poly is because this is a year on and she doesn't appear to be cheating now. The poly was to help OP get to the truth about what happened a year ago.

Or have I got this wrong, OP ?


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## davidd12

It still might work. She is claiming she has told the truth and is willing to do the poly. Now I'll get one set up for her and see if she shows up or not. I hope she is telling the truth. But if she isn't then it will save me a lot of grief and allow myself to find the right one.


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## davidd12

You have it right. I doubt she is doing anything now.


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## G.J.

Your right...just if he hasn't exhausted all other avenues with out confronting her he may have uncovered text from comp/devices so if there was anything she will make sure they are swiped

And now she will be cagey


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## eastsouth2000

manfromlamancha said:


> Ask her to take a polygraph test - her response should tell you volumes!
> 
> What would you do if you find that she has been screwing around ?





manfromlamancha said:


> The reason I went straight for the poly is because this is a year on and she doesn't appear to be cheating now. The poly was to help OP get to the truth about what happened a year ago.
> Or have I got this wrong, OP ?


YES YOU DID GET IT WRONG! DO YOU HAVE TO ASK?

:RAGE:
poly? poly without proof? poly? wtf poly! WTF KIND OF ADVISE IS THIS! TOTAL BS!

well say good bye to the marriage!
thank you for not trusting anyway!

what the hell kind of advise is, GO POLY! IMMEDIATELY POLY!

Here is the lowdown,
The marriage is over because you don't trust her!
And no there was no cheating cause you don't have proof!

hew: !

----
NOT EVEN THE FIRST THING YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE!

Step one:
1.] Check the phone Records!
2.] Access to phone! (dont tell her you can recover deleted message!)


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## Clay2013

So with that response I would go see a attorney and draw up paper work. I would take a serious look at what it is going to take to divorce. I then would sit her down and bring that divorce paper work with you. I would calmly tell her that she can either do the poly and prove she has been faithful or she can take this copy of divorce paper work and go see her attorney. Do not allow her to go gather herself. Just put it all on the line right there and then. 

She will either cave and work with you on this or she will want out. Just from the things you have posted it sounds to me like she is already half way out the door and the only one still in it is you.

C


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## eastsouth2000

Clay2013 said:


> So with that response I would go see a attorney and draw up paper work. I would take a serious look at what it is going to take to divorce. I then would sit her down and bring that divorce paper work with you. I would calmly tell her that she can either do the poly and prove she has been faithful or she can take this copy of divorce paper work and go see her attorney. Do not allow her to go gather herself. Just put it all on the line right there and then.
> 
> She will either cave and work with you on this or she will want out. Just from the things you have posted it sounds to me like she is already half way out the door and the only one still in it is you.
> 
> C


dude he does not have evidence of any infidelity?
:FACE PALM: :MEGA FACE PALM:


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## eastsouth2000

CHECK THE PHONE RECORDS STEP 1 
check phone bill!

HAVE ACCES TO PHONE AND SOCIAL MEDIA STEP 2


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## Marduk

What will you do if she did cheat on you?

Be sure about your answer.


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## eastsouth2000

Looks like everyone JUST JUMPED a step!

"GATHER EVIDENCE!" was skipped!
What the hell!

What happened to gather evidence!


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## G.J.

Too late now ..yes your right

Lets all get behind the Poly now and he can TRY to search for prior evidence

And not everyone jumped a step:wink2:


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## eastsouth2000

No its not to late to gather evidence.

He can begin by checking with Service provider for the bill.

See which number his WW is calling.

I believe by now, WW is already deleting txt messages.
But probably WW has not yet factory reset the phone.
You can still recover messages!

gain access to social media accounts.
cellphones and tablets.

try to use programs on the web to recover deleted message.
pro tip:
don't do the recovering infront of your WW.


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## G.J.

And don't forget if she has finished with any of her friends over the last couple of years as women can hold grudges for years and may be willing to talk

Polys are not 100% accurate ......please bear in mind


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## manfromlamancha

eastsouth2000 said:


> YES YOU DID GET IT WRONG! DO YOU HAVE TO ASK?
> 
> :RAGE:
> poly? poly without proof? poly? wtf poly! WTF KIND OF ADVISE IS THIS! TOTAL BS!
> 
> well say good bye to the marriage!
> thank you for not trusting anyway!
> 
> what the hell kind of advise is, GO POLY! IMMEDIATELY POLY!
> 
> Here is the lowdown,
> The marriage is over because you don't trust her!
> And no there was no cheating cause you don't have proof!
> 
> hew: !
> 
> ----
> NOT EVEN THE FIRST THING YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE!
> 
> Step one:
> 1.] Check the phone Records!
> 2.] Access to phone! (dont tell her you can recover deleted message!)


someone forget to take their blue pills today ?


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## G.J.

I hear Viagra or Kamagra can give you a stiff upper lip >


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## arbitrator

MattMatt said:


> Any more mysterious bruises?
> 
> These can be a sign of poor health BTW so generally they need to be checked out.
> 
> Of course they can be evidence of cheateritis.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Reminds me of a joke I heard back in college:

A woman was closely examining her nude body in the mirror and right in the middle of her thighs, she saw two perfectly distanced "green rings!"

Fearing the worst, she rushes to the doctors office to get a quick diagnosis. The curmudgeonly old physician entered the room, undraped her, fleetingly peered at her thighs, quickly covered her back up, and said to her in an exacting voice, "Madam, obviously your husband must undoubtedly be a gypsy!"

Which greatly makes me wonder if those bruises on your wife comes from brass earrings!

Next time, examine her thighs real closely!

On a more serious note, you've got plenty of evidence at hand and a gut instinct that is simply screaming out at you! All that I can say is: Act accordingly! *
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Graywolf2

davidd12 said:


> You have it right. I doubt she is doing anything now.





davidd12 said:


> While I'm suspicious at this point the event that brings it all to a head was when he quit all of a sudden and got a job with the feds.


Did he move away for his new job?


Put a voice activated recorder (VAR) under her car seat. You might pick her up talking to someone about the poly or she could be telling the other man that your suspicious.

LOOK HERE:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html


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## Thor

davidd12 said:


> Now I'll get one set up for her and see if she shows up or not


You should drive her to the appointment. She may give you a confession in the car.

If she does, still have her take the polygraph. Have them ask if she has told you the full truth, ie are there any others she has not told you about, or did she do more than what she confessed. Unless her confession in the car is enough for you to just divorce her asap, don't let her parking lot confession be enough to cancel the polygraph.


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## davidd12

Well the poly is set for tonight at 6. I'm going to go mad thinking about it. I'm not sure what to do with myself.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

davidd12 said:


> Well the poly is set for tonight at 6. I'm going to go mad thinking about it. I'm not sure what to do with myself.


Well that progressed quickly. You post of your suspicions at 5:40 and schedule a poly 6 hours later. This makes me wonder...

On the chance that this is real, I,ll say that I doubt she'll take the test.

She's basically going to tell you if you make her take it, the relationship will suffer for it. To the point where she,ll say that she could see herself leaving over it eventually. If so, don't believe it.

She's been throwing some major red flags since before you were married. The fact that you've put up with this for so long makes me think that she thinks you will not make her go through with the test if she objects enough.

Get ready because there is most likely going to be some TT and/or a parking lot confession.


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## TAMAT

David,

This by itself without any of the other evidence is suspect, you wrote, *A little later she was talking with my daughter about how sexy scars are on a man.*

This is typical of an active wayward, they do things out of character, like talking with you daughter about sex?

What is your W doing with a lesbian friend with an active crush on her, some women believe that having another woman perform oral on them is not cheating.

Maker sure you WW does not restrict the scope of the questions to ones she feels she can answer truthfully.

One approach is to write down a list of questions in a notebook, leave space for your Ws answers then tell her the polygraph questions will include did she answer all those questions truthfully.

Tamat


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## Chaparral

G.J. said:


> And don't forget if she has finished with any of her friends over the last couple of years as women can hold grudges for years and may be willing to talk
> 
> Polys are not 100% accurate ......please bear in mind


Nothing is 100%. I would take poly's results before I would take a persons word I suspects of cheating. Cheaters lie like rugs.


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## G.J.

Chaparral said:


> Nothing is 100%. I would take poly's results before I would take a persons word I suspects of cheating. Cheaters lie like rugs.


Me.... I would take both if possible to narrow the chances down


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## Sports Fan

There are more red flags here than Communist China. Chances are she slept with army boy. 

I would buy two VARS stash one in the house and one underneath her carseat strapped with Velcro.

Feed her the line that she has two hours to tell you the truth or there will be consequences in the marriage and you will be contacting army boy.

Then leave the house. Sit back and watch the VAR Record her calling him to warn him and get their stories straight.


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## G.J.

Sports Fan said:


> There are more red flags here than Communist China. Chances are she slept with army boy.
> 
> I would buy two VARS stash one in the house and one underneath her carseat strapped with Velcro.
> 
> Feed her the line that she has two hours to tell you the truth or there will be consequences in the marriage and you will be contacting army boy.
> 
> Then leave the house. Sit back and watch the VAR Record her calling him to warn him and get their stories straight.


This can work and has


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## PhillyGuy13

Wonder how the poly went? 

In general does one get the results of a poly right away?

Super fast thread yesterday and but now no update.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Be smart

About that Poly ! It was really fast my friend. Are you sure this is the one you are looking for. I hope it is not from one of your friends,who borrowed it to you so you can "play" around.

Back to your story. You have a lot of Red Flags.

Maybe I am dumb or something like that,but if my wife asked me to go for a vacation alone or with her "friends" without me I would make a scene. If she wants to Party without me or have a nice time then why is she still married to me ? 

She denied you sex,lied to you over and over again,suddenly changed her job,had sex in your own house !!!


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## OldWolf57

Me thinks she didn't pass go.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

OldWolf57 said:


> Me thinks she didn't pass go.


I think that she never took the poly.

He asked her to take the test, she said yes, but then "changed her mind(e.i., never planned on taking it - just a bluff). She either talked him out of it, or out right refused.

Either way, he's going to try to nice her into not cheating anymore.

And we all know how well that works...

Right from his first post we could see that he lacked testicular fortitude.

And tt's doubtful that they dropped before she had to take the test at 6:00.

Just add him to the "some wisdom needs to be lived to be learned" camp I guess.


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## JohnA

Timeline of this thread is throwing up a lot of red flags.


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## MattMatt

davidd12 said:


> Well the poly is set for tonight at 6. I'm going to go mad thinking about it. I'm not sure what to do with myself.


Check out relaxation techniques on Google and YouTube. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## davidd12

So I didn't make her take the poly. I did that for a couple of reasons. One she was going to do it. Then I read another post that made me question the decision. Poly hadn't even popped in my head till this thread and when I finally thought it out I decided that if I'm going to end this it will be with proof not a poly and to just have faith she is being honest. Do I think something happened , possibly. Do I think she might be honest, possibly. 

So it was a lose lose if I went through with it. If she was being honest I lose. If she was lying I lose. I don't want to put my marriage on a polygraph is all it comes down to. 

As for tactics, I've done just about everything on her, voc, got into her email, checked her phone and phone records on and on and found nothing. 

So does it reflect on me as a man, I don't think so. I'm trying to be a trusting husband. 

There is some misunderstanding on what my op was trying to say. She went on the vacations without me before we ever got engaged, so 4 years ago both in the first year of dating. 

Everything I brought up was a red flag. It made me question her fidelity. I haven't dropped the idea just the poly.

I have some ideas on how I can get confirmation without relying on a polygraph to do it.


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## davidd12

On a side note after I asked her to take the poly, she didn't make any odd calls or texts. Her phone was completely silent outside of texts to me.


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## threelittlestars

Dude...you are going to regret not keeping that polygraph appointment....


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## BobSimmons

JohnA said:


> Timeline of this thread is throwing up a lot of red flags.


No poly after poly being booked. 

Quelle surprise...


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## davidd12

I would've doubted the poly. I don't know enough about poly and jumped the gun. It is notorious for false positives and false negatives. In the hands a a well trained person it is a powerful tool, the problem is the guy that I set up the appointment with wasn't exactly the expert I wanted. Those cost over $800 and I couldn't afford that at the moment.

I also verified the army guy and he is legitimately working for the feds. So there is the crux of what I doubted and she was being honest about that. 

I put Dr fone on my computer a year ago after this and found nothing on her phone after doing updates with her iPhone a number of times. I found deleted texts and all sorts of nothing. Even from all the way back to her Hawaii trip and I found nothing. 

I don't have the proof to rely on a poly. I have suspicion which are red flags, but far from proof. I'm not the paranoid guy that struggles with women or has low self confidence. I had suspicion but right now it isn't worth what has been a really happy marriage on a gut instinct. 

I won't regret the poly. If she is cheating then so be it. I'm not stooping to that level to get her to be honest. I'll find another way to confirm or deny this. I actually have talked to a really good pi that has some ideas that we could do to verify this with the other side.


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## bandit.45

Don't what you think is right. It's your life to gamble. 

You should at least sit her down and tell her you have no intention of bringing the issue up again. But make it very clear to her that if you find out years down the road that she lied to you, and did have an affair...she is gone. You will file for divorce without hesitation. Tell her the truth has ugly way of popping up out of nowhere, and that if she did do something, it will come out one day.


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## G.J.

davidd12 said:


> I would've doubted the poly. I don't know enough about poly and jumped the gun. It is notorious for false positives and false negatives. In the hands a a well trained person it is a powerful tool, the problem is the guy that I set up the appointment with wasn't exactly the expert I wanted. Those cost over $800 and I couldn't afford that at the moment.
> 
> I also verified the army guy and he is legitimately working for the feds. So there is the crux of what I doubted and she was being honest about that.
> 
> I put Dr fone on my computer a year ago after this and found nothing on her phone after doing updates with her iPhone a number of times. I found deleted texts and all sorts of nothing. Even from all the way back to her Hawaii trip and I found nothing.
> 
> I don't have the proof to rely on a poly. I have suspicion which are red flags, but far from proof. I'm not the paranoid guy that struggles with women or has low self confidence. I had suspicion but right now it isn't worth what has been a really happy marriage on a gut instinct.
> 
> I won't regret the poly. If she is cheating then so be it. I'm not stooping to that level to get her to be honest. I'll find another way to confirm or deny this. I actually have talked to a really good pi that has some ideas that we could do to verify this with the other side.


You could have cancelled and have at least took her to the car park....she may have told you some thing pre getting out to go in

You could have then told her, 'no I'm uncomfortable with it' yadda yadda and drove home

Its amazing how many confess just before they get out the car


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## threelittlestars

^ I know he missed out on the point of booking a polygraph. Its the statistical probability that cheaters in fear of being caught will spill. PARKING LOT CONFESSION.

your wife saying yes, and then himming and hawing about finances and how offended she is, its just a load. If my husband walked in here demanding i get a polygraph finances or not i would do ANYTHING to make him feel i was honest. i would be BEGGING YOU TO PROVE MYSELF. I would be cutting finances to MAKE it happen to exonerate me from accusation. Not to mention the righteousness to have it prove me innocent would also help! but no... You fell for her bs. 

Bruising is not a very solid sign of cheating. Im a mom and i get bruises all the time and I DONT KNOW WHERE THEY COME FROM! 
but the other points you mentioned are red flags to me. 

Her response was very telling to me... Not to you because you keep pulling your blinders off and on. Don't you see that her not being fully on board about polygraphs is just to make you not give her one period. She is cheating. I feel it especially after you explained what she said.


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## G.J.

davidd12 said:


> . I had suspicion but right now it isn't worth what has been a really happy marriage on a gut instinct.
> *
> The gut instinct isn't an instinct...its pieces you haven't put together consciously*
> 
> I won't regret the poly. If she is cheating then so be it.
> 
> *Ouch...living like that would make most cringe*
> 
> .


Hope you find proof one way or the other


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## Be smart

I wish you luck my friend and be ready for the worst.

From now on you are going to sleep with one open eye and you will ask yourself a lot of questions. 

If you think this will be solved in one month then you are not being honest with yourself.

She is lying to you and she will keep doing it,because she was used to do it. 

She gave you her phone after she deleted all texts and pictures. Next time you want to chechk her accounts DONT TELL HER about it. You will be suprised.

Stay strong


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## bryanp

How do you know that she does not have a separate phone that you do not know about?


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## davidd12

No spare phone for certain. I know her accounts and cc passwords. Financially I have full visability. I know for sure because we bought a house and saw her credit report. I've looked at her cc changes.

I have suspicions but 0 proof. Red flags but that is about it. The only thing I can think off is that she has a message app that I haven't found on her phone. Maybe a hidden one or something, or she just deletes all her conversations with Facebook messager. That is the only thing I can think of. Dr fone will retrieve deleted messages and I scourged that pretty good several times and found nothing of consequence.

If she is lying this is on an epic level of evil and deception. I should have something more than doubt by now. Something concrete or at the very least a solid clue. All I have are questions and several peculiar events that set off red flags.


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## naiveonedave

@davidd12 here is how you buy a burner phone - use cash and buy a tracphone. Not that hard.

the other option would be apps that don't save anything or a gaming device like xbox.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

So problem solved. The red flags were all just misinterpretations on your part. You really do not have anymore need to post in the TAM CWI section anymore then, right? I mean if you now realize that she was never, has never cheated and you say you will have to just trust her, why would you need to post in the infidelity section anymore?...

Take care then.


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## OnTheRocks

Polygraphs are junk science.


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## TAMAT

David,

In reading you posts I get the sense that.

Your WW is into rough sex, but not with you, hence the unexplained bruises. Women frequently have a sexual side they would never allow with their husbands. They do allow it with a throw away person or an affair partner or a ONS. I don't know if your WW goes as far as S&M but you might never find out. Secret fetishes can be very powerful, especially when they are established in adolesence. 

What do you know of your WWs sexual past?

With my W I have reciently found out that at one time she had a thing for BJs or at least viewing pornographic cartoons of the act. I'm in my 50's and I never knew this. Although it makes some sense of what she said about OM-1.

When my W was involved, or so I suspect, with others there were also the unexplained changes in sexual behavior. 

That you are allowing her to get away with her cheating is setting yourself up for more in the future. When something goes wrong in life or in your marriage she may fall back on her past behavior. With my W it was 3 episodes spaced about 8 years apart or so, that I know of. 

You might want to study your Ws body language I know my W has very definite lying signs.

What are your other methods for finding out the truth?

What have you been able to find out about these OM?

Tamat


----------



## Divinely Favored

OnTheRocks said:


> Polygraphs are junk science.


Bull ****! We have warrants issued based on failed polys and they will do minimum 90 days in jail for it. You have to find someone who knows what they are doing.

Contact your local Parole/probation office and ask them who they use. These people do ALOT of them for sex offender monitoring....they know their crap.

That's perfect as these polygraph ecaminers know how to word sexual questions. And since adulterers can not control their sexual urges and do things which cause severe mental anguish and psychological pain, to me they are sex offenders who's victims are the BS's and children whose lives they destroy with the results of their inability to control their 
urges.


----------



## Popcorn2015

Poly, no poly, whatever. Still no answer for all the physical evidence you've noticed, as listed in your first post.

Best of luck.


----------



## OnTheRocks

Divinely Favored said:


> Bull ****! We have warrants issued based on failed polys and they will do minimum 90 days in jail for it. You have to find someone who knows what they are doing.
> 
> Contact your local Parole/probation office and ask them who they use. These people do ALOT of them for sex offender monitoring....they know their crap.
> 
> That's perfect as these polygraph ecaminers know how to word sexual questions. And since adulterers can not control their sexual urges and do things which cause severe mental anguish and psychological pain, to me they are sex offenders who's victims are the BS's and children whose lives they destroy with the results of their inability to control their
> urges.


Would you divorce over a failed poly? If not, why bother? Get actual proof, not some subjective EKG results. Demanding one makes you look weak and irrational. IMO, of course.


----------



## TDSC60

Did you check army guy for sexy scars?

10x10 red flag there.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

davidd12 said:


> In my mind I'm sure she cheated, and I can get past it except when I have time and it pops in my mind. If I had to bet my life one way or the other I would bet she did at least one of those times if not all of them, and it kills me. I don't know what to do. She is my wife, I've been divorced once (not for anything like this) and feel she is my best friend in the world. Yet I have this horrible gut feeling on this



Look, I understand you want a happy life and all that. But the bruses point to some hefty sexual encounters and your gut tells you so. What about all the other times there were no bruses? Maybe you have a serial cheater at hand. Not knowing will eat your soul away from you.

The poly, the only way here, because most is in the past.


----------



## SofaKingFree

OnTheRocks said:


> Polygraphs are junk science.


They're very useful in eliciting confessions.


----------



## davidd12

Poly's are 90% accurate and that is being generous. I'm not to the point I'm willing to put it on the line for that level of uncertainty. 

I'm going to confront the army boy. How idk yet. I've thought of going back door and just flat out confronting him. He has a wife so I have that leverage of going to her with what I have, and using that to get him to talk.

I think the one poster might have it closest to what I'm dealing with, and that is the sexual deviant acts. She has told me she like rough sex which isn't a shock because I like that as well, it is part of what connected us. If she has strayed it is one off or short lived events. That makes it harder to catch and prove because it isn't on going. If it was on going then I would have caught her by now.

What do you all think of confronting him?


----------



## TAMAT

ddavid,

You wrote bolded, 

*I'm going to confront the army boy. How idk yet. I've thought of going back door and just flat out confronting him. He has a wife so I have that leverage of going to her with what I have, and using that to get him to talk.*

For one thing cheating is actually against the UCMJ so you can go to the inspector general, but be sure to go up high enough.

You may want to make up a story that your WW told you everything, and that if his story matches up with your Ws you will spare him.

*I think the one poster might have it closest to what I'm dealing with, and that is the sexual deviant acts. *

This may be a tough one if it is something she does not think she can get or share with you.

If you can get info. on OM being in some deviant sexual community they might also give you even more leverage. 

*What do you all think of confronting him? *

I can't imagine you going though life without doing this, being with your W 20 years from now, never having met the OM in person?

You wrote a while back that your WW was talking with you daughter about how sexy scars are??!!! What a very fogged out thing to say and why the H is she saying it to your daughter?

Confronting the OM is coming up for me too, although it has been 20+ years.

Tamat


----------



## *Deidre*

You shouldn't have to confront the OM, she should stop seeing him (if that is what's happening) and go NC. Confronting the OM, to me, doesn't change the situation in your home. Until that changes, there will be more OM. (if that is what's happening)


----------



## davidd12

The om is out of the picture. This is old, like a year plus. I figure confronting him won't be hard from the stand point of it is over and the risk to his current life is too grave to not spill it.


----------



## *Deidre*

davidd12 said:


> The om is out of the picture. This is old, like a year plus. I figure confronting him won't be hard from the stand point of it is over and the risk to his current life is too grave to not spill it.


My advice, fwiw...move forward. Confronting him now, is like going backwards. You know? Don't go backwards...go forward. Your life is so much more than this man and what happened.


----------



## MattMatt

Resistance said:


> Expecting fidelity/monogamy from a White female in this era is akin moving a tiger in your house as a pet and calling it a 'big kitten'.
> 
> Could work, if you're extremely lucky. 95% chance are you're getting ripped to pieces, though.
> 
> You want family based traits in a female? (Wanting children, Monogamy, Non-Promiscuity, etc.) it's going to take a woman who is Muslim or an Asian woman who is not westernized.


95% of what you wrote is nonsense. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

MattMatt said:


> 95% of what you wrote is nonsense.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't you think that is giving just a bit too much credit?



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## ThePheonix

Resistance said:


> You want family based traits in a female? (Wanting children, Monogamy, Non-Promiscuity, etc.) it's going to take a woman who is Muslim or an Asian woman who is not westernized.


It more like men are feminized than women westernized.


----------



## JohnA

@TAMAT, it was my impression that the military takes action in cases of adultery within it's own ranks. In cases of adultery outside of the ranks they take a very dim view and often advancement is denied. 

Strange but true: the term Hooker refers to a union general who encouraged "camp" followers. He claimed a army that didn't "F" couldn't fight and saw prostitutes as necessary. These women came to be called "hookers" brigade.


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## farsidejunky

JohnA said:


> @TAMAT, it was my impression that the military takes action in cases of adultery within it's own ranks. In cases of adultery outside of the ranks they take a very dim view and often advancement is denied.
> 
> Strange but true: the term Hooker refers to a union general who encouraged "camp" followers. He claimed a army that didn't "F" couldn't fight and saw prostitutes as necessary. These women came to be called "hookers" brigade.


John:

Your assertion is halfway right. They do prosecute adultery harshly within the Uniform Code of Military Justice. However, most commanders will insist on a larger burden of proof for adultery simply do to the amount of times it is used in an attempt to sabotage the person in uniform by their spouse.

Rarely will they take word of mouth testimony as enough evidence. Normally, there must be photo, video, or other forms of hard evidence.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## JohnA

Hi @farsidejunky 

Does the UMC consider adultery when the AP is not in the military and neither is the AP spouse? 

As an aside there are good reasons for the military's attitude towards adultery (which includes prison). Image this: 

I am a captain of a bomber 
You are on my crew 
You know I am in an affair with a jet mech wife, and jet mech knows 
You know I spent the night with her, and the husband knows as well 
You know her husband spent the night working on the engines on my plane 

Do you or do you not get on board to fly a mission with me?


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## *Deidre*

Adultery shouldn't be a crime, and to make it so, even in the military ...seems wrong. Unless the military starts looking at all sexual misconduct for single people too, as wrong ...why are only married people held to a certain standard?


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## farsidejunky

Yeah, it presents huge problems within the team.

Understand that what I am saying is purely anecdotal, and based only on my experience.

I only saw one Soldier ever disciplined for adultery, and it was with another Soldiers wife.

I saw a bunch of folks get called to the Commanders office due to being suspected of it. But again, the burden of proof was frequently not met to take it further.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## JohnA

hi @*Deidre* 

What did you think of my example? Based on that can you understand why the military the law is the way it is ? Would you fly on a plane with me under these circumstances ? 

Bye the way the jet mech in this example was a woman from one town over from me. CHRST can you imaging being written up because you refused to salute your husbands AP ?


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## JohnA

It does not matter if I am single. What governs is I am in the military and my AP is too, or their spouse is.


----------



## *Deidre*

JohnA said:


> hi @*Deidre*
> 
> What did you think of my example? Based on that can you understand why the military the law is the way it is ? Would you fly on a plane with me under these circumstances ?
> 
> Bye the way the jet mech in this example was a woman from one town over from me. CHRST can you imaging being written up because you refused to salute your husbands AP ?


But, if you never knew this about the person, you would fly with him and just base your opinions of him on his merit in terms of performance. His committing adultery doesn't affect his competence as a trained soldier. You knowing he committed adultery is what changes how you view his competence...but doesn't really change his competence. Don't ask, don't tell...I think when it comes to people's sex lives in the military, that's how it should be.


----------



## MattMatt

*Deidre* said:


> But, if you never knew this about the person, you would fly with him and just base your opinions of him on his merit in terms of performance. His committing adultery doesn't affect his competence as a trained soldier. You knowing he committed adultery is what changes how you view his competence...but doesn't really change his competence. Don't ask, don't tell...I think when it comes to people's sex lives in the military, that's how it should be.


But that's not the problem.

Let's suppose that the technician responsible for repairing a vital system on the plane knows their spouse is cheating and, as a result, hasn't eaten or slept properly for six days?

How good a job could they do?

Or what if they are so crazy with the grief of knowing that the commander of the plane is going to take not only their spouse away from them but will take their spouse and perhaps their children when he goes to his next posting?

Maybe the technician would sabotage the vital system to make the plane crash?


----------



## JohnA

@*Deidre* No, you missed my point. Whether I knew the pilot comminted adultery with the jet mech spouse or not, the jet mech worked on the plane's engine I am flying. That is why it is a big deal to the military. Don't forget the mech can't pick and chose which engines to service. The mech cannot say I quit and walk away. 

Research the phrase "to frag someone". Be careful not to confuse it with a term regarding sexuality. It has nothing to do with sex.


----------



## *Deidre*

JohnA said:


> @*Deidre* No, you missed my point. Whether I knew the pilot comminted adultery with the jet mech spouse or not, the jet mech worked on the plane's engine I am flying. That is why it is a big deal to the military. Don't forget the mech can't pick and chose which engines to service. The mech cannot say I quit and walk away.
> 
> Research the phrase "to frag someone". Be careful not to confuse it with a term regarding sexuality. It has nothing to do with sex.


Ah, ok...I see what you mean, now. But, why not just discharge the adulterer for sexual misconduct? Jailing someone for adultery seems...archaic. It's not criminal activity, in my eyes...it's immoral, yes...let the guy go with a dishonorable discharge or something, yes...but to be imprisoned for adultery? Seems like trying to legislate morality, which honestly, some politicians if they had their way, would push for. Slippery slopes ...


----------



## MattMatt

Resistance said:


> You are free to believe what you will.
> 
> I assure you it is not, though. I wish it were. Obviously.


Marry a woman from the Indian sub-continent.

And you might find a submissive wife. Or find a strong-willed person, instead?

Or get slain in a so-called honour killing when their family catch up with you.


----------



## MattMatt

*Deidre* said:


> Ah, ok...I see what you mean, now. But, why not just discharge the adulterer for sexual misconduct? Jailing someone for adultery seems...archaic. It's not criminal activity, in my eyes...it's immoral, yes...let the guy go with a dishonorable discharge or something, yes...but to be imprisoned for adultery? Seems like trying to legislate morality, which honestly, some politicians if they had their way, would push for. Slippery slopes ...


In some States in the USA adultery is still, technically speaking, a crime.


----------



## the guy

MattMatt said:


> In some States in the USA adultery is still, technically speaking, a crime.


And rightfully so...IMHO


----------



## MattMatt

Resistance said:


> I always laugh at Liberal White men like you. So conditioned by Western Culture to sabotage your own life the things you believe shock and amuse me at the same time.
> 
> Wanting a monogamous, faithful woman is akin to wanting a 'submissive' woman, or as this conversation continues no doubt you'll go the more extreme 'slave'.
> 
> First of all, this isn't a game or a movie. You aren't going to marry a woman against the wishes of her family in a culture where that is treated extremely harshly.
> 
> What do you think we speak of here, Matt? Heading over to Saudi Arabia and falling in love with some rural Saudi woman?
> 
> Here's a clue - there are Muslim women in the West and most of them reject Western Culture.
> 
> Yeah, it's not going to be easy. No ****.
> 
> The easy route (White Females) gets you cheated on, brokenhearted, financially ruined and turned into an absentee father (if you actually married a White woman willing to have children) by disgusting Western courts who look at fathers as disposable sperm donors.
> 
> If your aim is a Muslim woman - who are the top echelon of Females - it's not going to be a cake walk. That's the point. You have to convert, be accepted, etc.
> 
> And I doubt most Western men are even an attractive choice for Muslim females - Most White Men are feminized. Heck, most White men are more feminine than Muslim women are, and that's not an insult to Muslim women.
> 
> Hence why you see more White men with Asian women.


I am a white man. A Liberal? No.

But I am married to an Indian woman.


----------



## *Deidre*

MattMatt said:


> In some States in the USA adultery is still, technically speaking, a crime.


And it shouldn't be, unless we want other sexual crimes between consenting adults to be considered crimes too. Like, having sex outside of marriage, between two consenting single people. Oral sex in some states is considered technically a crime too...doubtful anyone would want that crime to be enforced. lol 

And in Christianity, adultery encompasses not just married people cheating...it also includes sleeping with people outside of marriage, and so on. So, this is why morality in this context shouldn't be legislated.


----------



## the guy

Resistance said:


> I always laugh at Liberal White men like you. So conditioned by Western Culture to sabotage your own life the things you believe shock and amuse me at the same time.
> 
> Wanting a monogamous, faithful woman is akin to wanting a 'submissive' woman, or as this conversation continues no doubt you'll go the more extreme 'slave'.
> 
> First of all, this isn't a game or a movie. You aren't going to marry a woman against the wishes of her family in a culture where that is treated extremely harshly.
> 
> What do you think we speak of here, Matt? Heading over to Saudi Arabia and falling in love with some rural Saudi woman?
> 
> Here's a clue - there are Muslim women in the West and most of them reject Western Culture.
> 
> Yeah, it's not going to be easy. No ****.
> 
> The easy route (White Females) gets you cheated on, brokenhearted, financially ruined and turned into an absentee father (if you actually married a White woman willing to have children) by disgusting Western courts who look at fathers as disposable sperm donors.
> 
> If your aim is a Muslim woman - who are the top echelon of Females - it's not going to be a cake walk. That's the point. You have to convert, be accepted, etc.
> 
> And I doubt most Western men are even an attractive choice for Muslim females - Most White Men are feminized. Heck, most White men are more feminine than Muslim women are, and that's not an insult to Muslim women.
> 
> Hence why you see more White men with Asian women.


What the phuck!

Guys just want to get laid......

And If feminizing increases the chances well then dress me up in some panties and call me spanky.:grin2:

Any way if we are so feminized i guess beaten on my old lady was ok. Just a couple ckicks fighting...right


Sorry for the thread jack OP this shyt pissed me off.


----------



## MattMatt

*Deidre* said:


> And it shouldn't be, unless we want other sexual crimes between consenting adults to be considered crimes too. Like, having sex outside of marriage, between two consenting single people. Oral sex in some states is considered technically a crime too...doubtful anyone would want that crime to be enforced. lol
> 
> And in Christianity, adultery encompasses not just married people cheating...it also includes sleeping with people outside of marriage, and so on. So, this is why morality in this context shouldn't be legislated.


In the UK some consensual sex is a crime.

There was a case a few years back that the police discovered a homemade video of a male on male group BDSM video that was so horrifically violent that they actually thought it was a snuff movie.

They found out who the men were and they were all prosecuted, even though all participants were willing. "Assault occasioning actual bodily harm" was the charge which they were found guilty of, as the use of consent against a charge of "assault occasioning actual bodily harm" is not permissible under UK law.

So, I think that perhaps consensual sex of any kind, when it involves harm or perhaps even adultery, should have the possibility of being illegal.


----------



## the guy

*Deidre* said:


> And it shouldn't be, unless we want other sexual crimes between consenting adults to be considered crimes too. Like, having sex outside of marriage, between two consenting single people. Oral sex in some states is considered technically a crime too...doubtful anyone would want that crime to be enforced. lol
> 
> And in Christianity, adultery encompasses not just married people cheating...it also includes sleeping with people outside of marriage, and so on. So, this is why morality in this context shouldn't be legislated.


I think they should legalize beatin the APs @ss if ones spouse is phucking someone else.
But thats just me.


----------



## *Deidre*

the guy said:


> I think they should legalize beatin the APs @ss if ones spouse is phucking someone else.
> But thats just me.


Violence never solves anything, really.


----------



## MattMatt

Resistance said:


> You're English. There is no other type of White Man in the UK.
> 
> Everyone around the world knows about Rotherham, and the reaction of the Indigenous English to it.
> 
> And given that you are indeed English, my words must strike a chord with you deeper than others. You see it everyday in your life.


Really. So, by that logic every town in America is just like Detroit?



> A little learning is a dangerous thing;
> Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring.


----------



## tom67

Resistance said:


> Most big cities have Detroit's in them, yes.
> 
> Also, most big American cities will share the fate of Detroit.
> 
> Examples:
> 
> Chicago, Philadelphia, Milwaukee, etc.


Yep with their bonds becoming junk I agree.

Chicago is junk status already.


----------



## G.J.

Resistance said:


> You're English. There is no other type of White Man in the UK.
> 
> Everyone around the world knows about Rotherham, and the reaction of the Indigenous English to it.
> 
> And given that you are indeed English, my words must strike a chord with you deeper than others. You see it everyday in your life.


All though everyone in the UK has a British citizenship they have different nationalities. England is only one of the three countries in Britain (Scotland, England and Wales).

U.K. = United Kingdom...kinda gives it away really


----------



## G.J.

> Everyone around the world knows about Rotherham


Hussain brothers jailed in Rotherham abuse case - BBC News


----------



## Thor

davidd12 said:


> The om is out of the picture. This is old, like a year plus. I figure confronting him won't be hard from the stand point of it is over and the risk to his current life is too grave to not spill it.


Expect 0% truth from OM.


----------



## G.J.

Resistance said:


> I'm more than aware. There is no difference in an English man, a Scottish man, a Welsh man.
> 
> Now, the Northern Irish are made of sterner stuff - but even that is fading.
> 
> Point is - modern English men are cuckolds by nature. Just like other European's inside and outside the homelands.


You are aware you say, you dont seem to be..then again if you state one thing and mean another i suppose all your posts can be given the same amount of credence


----------



## Thor

*Deidre* said:


> Violence never solves anything, really.


Sure it does. When someone is determined to harm you, violence against them is a very good option.


----------



## *Deidre*

Thor said:


> Sure it does. When someone is determined to harm you, violence against them is a very good option.


The problem isn't the other person though, the problem is the spouse. If my fiance cheats on me someday, I'm not going to beat up the OW. lol I'm dumping him...and moving on. That is the one way to move forward...not assault someone, and end up in jail over two people who are not worth it. The OM and OW are low to sleep with married people...but the spouse is lower. No one steals one's spouse away, without that spouse's permission. So assaulting their lovers is really an effort in futility. (and wrong to boot lol)


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Resistance said:


> You're English. There is no other type of White Man in the UK.
> 
> Everyone around the world knows about Rotherham, and the reaction of the Indigenous English to it.
> 
> And given that you are indeed English, my words must strike a chord with you deeper than others. You see it everyday in your life.


Your posts are blatantly racist.

No hope for you I am afraid.


----------



## JohnA

@*Deidre* Fair point. In the case of the bomber captain she was allowed to resign with a general discharge. Which in real life is only a minor distinction from a dishonorable. 

As to why prison, if I am not mistaken prison is an option.


----------



## bandit.45

So David...how are you doing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## D.H Mosquito

*Deidre* said:


> The problem isn't the other person though, the problem is the spouse. If my fiance cheats on me someday, I'm not going to beat up the OW. lol I'm dumping him...and moving on. That is the one way to move forward...not assault someone, and end up in jail over two people who are not worth it. The OM and OW are low to sleep with married people...but the spouse is lower. No one steals one's spouse away, without that spouse's permission. So assaulting their lovers is really an effort in futility. (and wrong to boot lol)


I always advise against meeting the affair partner for this reason, When news broke to me over the affair rather than look online and before i found here for answers i beat the crap out of him among other things when he laughed in my face and said a few things that enraged me further. I almost lost my freedom my job and house over that pos luckily friends and friends of friends as well as my partner managed to get him not to press charges obviously Police less than impressed,
Don't ever approach or reach out to the other man you have 2 choices beat the crap out of him or walk away even weaker in his and her eyes leaving them free to potentially carry the affair on


----------



## JohnA

Hi @deidre* I found this on another site and thought it well written. (in case you have not notice I tend to be a bit of a magpie when it comes to good writing.)


Who is the other person*

There are moments in a persons life that transcends time. That emotion on the day of and day after their wedding, the birth of a child and that first moment me holding the child. They inform us, they are not what makes life worth living, they are life.

In the same way, adultery has transformed me. The echoes of the uncertainties and raw emotional pain will always be a part of me. Overtime it has and continues to evolve into a source of empathy. The empathy that enables me to understand others pain and fear, both in matters like this and others.*

*posm are not nice people. They had a choice to support *your marriage. *They could have helped your spouse to fight and win to save your marriage. They choose to use the opportunity to try to fill a void in their life. In doing so tey choose to inflict the pain and loss I wrote above.*

Understand they choose to be the one. To say "if not him, then..." does not work. They *choose it to be them and no one else. In this they *are *lacking in character. So, they could be a fine person, *but so are addicts until they need a fix.

So what is, is. I have gained acceptance, I have greatly healed. I have gain empathy and awareness, and a great deal of indifference. It is from indifference I say "no they are not a nice person". *It is from the same place I would comment on a persons second DUI. No when a person allows there own weakness to create actual harm or create a real threat of harm, they cannot be truly be considered a nice person


----------



## Thor

*Deidre* said:


> The problem isn't the other person though, the problem is the spouse. If my fiance cheats on me someday, I'm not going to beat up the OW. lol I'm dumping him...and moving on. That is the one way to move forward...not assault someone, and end up in jail over two people who are not worth it. The OM and OW are low to sleep with married people...but the spouse is lower. No one steals one's spouse away, without that spouse's permission. So assaulting their lovers is really an effort in futility. (and wrong to boot lol)


I look at this from the point of view as a male, and my wife's ex btw is well known to seek out married women. Somewhere on this forum is a post written by such a poacher about how he intentionally sought out married women and the true low life scum he was.

Anyhow, no it isn't going to end well legally for the BS who assaults OM. For that reason I do not advocate any violence against OM.

But I do believe that in less "civilized" times when such retribution or crimes of passion were not punished that it was indeed a deterrent to such low life poachers as my wife's ex.

More generally I was referring to what seemed like a blanket pacifist statement that violence doesn't solve problems. Violence does and has solved many problems which have no alternative, or which evolved to where no alternative is viable.


----------



## *Deidre*

JohnA said:


> Hi @deidre* I found this on another site and thought it well written. (in case you have not notice I tend to be a bit of a magpie when it comes to good writing.)
> 
> 
> Who is the other person*
> 
> There are moments in a persons life that transcends time. That emotion on the day of and day after their wedding, the birth of a child and that first moment me holding the child. They inform us, they are not what makes life worth living, they are life.
> 
> In the same way, adultery has transformed me. The echoes of the uncertainties and raw emotional pain will always be a part of me. Overtime it has and continues to evolve into a source of empathy. The empathy that enables me to understand others pain and fear, both in matters like this and others.*
> 
> *posm are not nice people. They had a choice to support *your marriage. *They could have helped your spouse to fight and win to save your marriage. They choose to use the opportunity to try to fill a void in their life. In doing so tey choose to inflict the pain and loss I wrote above.*
> 
> Understand they choose to be the one. To say "if not him, then..." does not work. They *choose it to be them and no one else. In this they *are *lacking in character. So, they could be a fine person, *but so are addicts until they need a fix.
> 
> So what is, is. I have gained acceptance, I have greatly healed. I have gain empathy and awareness, and a great deal of indifference. It is from indifference I say "no they are not a nice person". *It is from the same place I would comment on a persons second DUI. No when a person allows there own weakness to create actual harm or create a real threat of harm, they cannot be truly be considered a nice person


Yes, indifference is what one should strive for...and it will come after healing. Honestly, going no contact after you find out you've been betrayed...as soon as you feasibly can...is the ticket to healing, and ironically, silence is more wounding than any words or retaliation can ever be. My ex bf who cheated went insane with my silence I had heard through friends...because he wanted me to make a scene, confront the OW, and compete for him. lol Nope. I don't have to compete with anyone, and any husband or wife who puts their spouse in such a position, isn't worthy of being that person's spouse.

Silence in my opinion, is strength.


----------



## *Deidre*

Thor said:


> I look at this from the point of view as a male, and my wife's ex btw is well known to seek out married women. Somewhere on this forum is a post written by such a poacher about how he intentionally sought out married women and the true low life scum he was.
> 
> Anyhow, no it isn't going to end well legally for the BS who assaults OM. For that reason I do not advocate any violence against OM.
> 
> But I do believe that in less "civilized" times when such retribution or crimes of passion were not punished that it was indeed a deterrent to such low life poachers as my wife's ex.
> 
> More generally I was referring to what seemed like a blanket pacifist statement that violence doesn't solve problems. Violence does and has solved many problems which have no alternative, or which evolved to where no alternative is viable.


Violence doesn't solve problems, violence only begets more violence. Self defense (individually or as a country, etc) is different, but other than that, violence is only an option if you make it be your only option.


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## the guy

Dave, It's been over a year and the OM is history. IMHO I don't see what it will solve.

But if the phucker starts sniffing around again you dam well better confront his @ss!


----------



## the guy

The odd thing about infidelity is before it happens to you one has all these perceptions like "I would just kick the wayward out or "I would never stick around"....the reality is even the most passiive individual will want to kill when they get betrayed and the one who swears cheating is a deal breaker finds them self struggling with leaving and may even say "I want the marriage to work out"...

Folks, until one has been through it, one can't really say what they will do.

And another thing is.... often when one is being betrayed they can't even believe it in the first place and face the red flags... much less take any action at all to protect them selves from the betrayal.


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## JohnA

Dead people don't make problems for anyone. Period. Accept there are those who take that attitude and respond. 

One question who gave Hitler a hard time ? One hint, it wasn't any of the 12 million people he gassed. 

To be clear I am not saying stone the other person. I am saying shun them and make sure those around you know why. That s the point of that post I made about the other person.


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## Be smart

This Resistance guy is right about some things,like family and kids. 

I am still young and maybe someone is going to call me old fashioned,dumb,stupid or something like that but I cant see a good father figure or good mother figure in people who slept with 40-50 partners. They dont know what monogamy means. Maybe I am wrong so please dont be harsh on me.

I am not going to talk about politics or religion because I am not interested in them. Through history only bad things happend because of them.


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## Be smart

the guy said:


> The odd thing about infidelity is before it happens to you one has all these perceptions like "I would just kick the wayward out or "I would never stick around"....the reality is even the most passiive individual will want to kill when they get betrayed and the one who swears cheating is a deal breaker finds them self struggling with leaving and may even say "I want the marriage to work out"...
> 
> Folks, until one has been through it, one can't really say what they will do.
> 
> And another thing is.... often when one is being betrayed they can't even believe it in the first place and face the red flags... much less take any action at all to protect them selves from the betrayal.


You are wrong my friend. A lot of people are going to respect you if you stand behind your own words.

For example. I said those words about cheaters and cheating and I am sticking with them for my entire life.

You know why ? I never cheated in my relationship and I want the same from my partner. I dont care if she was having "mid life crisis" or her parents died and year after she cheated because "it was a lot to deal with". That is 90% excuses for cheating I read about and was told.

Also I am not going to turn my back on my friend,brother if they forgive cheating. I can only support them on the track to have a better marriage and be happy once more.


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## Thor

*Deidre* said:


> Violence doesn't solve problems, violence only begets more violence. Self defense (individually or as a country, etc) is different, but other than that, violence is only an option if you make it be your only option.


I agree, violence is a last resort and in today's world only for legitimate self defense. But when it is necessary it absolutely can solve problems. It can solve the most extreme kinds of problems.


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## bandit.45

So David, how are you doing?


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## *Deidre*

Thor said:


> I agree, violence is a last resort and in today's world only for legitimate self defense. But when it is necessary it absolutely can solve problems. It can solve the most extreme kinds of problems.


It is not ''necessary'' to beat up someone whom your spouse betrayed you with. Take the high road, that's my motto. Confronting and assaulting the other person will always end badly. 

Military silence is better. :x


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## Thor

*Deidre* said:


> It is not ''necessary'' to beat up someone whom your spouse betrayed you with. Take the high road, that's my motto. Confronting and assaulting the other person will always end badly.
> 
> Military silence is better. :x


In today's society I agree with you. It will end badly for the BS legally.

That's not necessarily the high road, as in it isn't necessarily the morally superior position. Punishment isn't the low road. Sending a message which deters others from engaging in harmful behavior to marriages is not the low road.

A large portion of people would commit murder if they knew they would get away with it. But instead they are peaceable law abiding citizens, due to the fear of the consequences (legal and social). Dirt bags who target married people would be much less likely to do so if they knew they stood to feel some real pain. Deterrence works.

A big part of the poacher mentality is "getting one over" on the BS. Without the chance of retribution they simply run amok and are energized by every success.

Admittedly it wouldn't solve the marital problems or personality defects leading the cheater to cheat, which is half the problem.


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## Divinely Favored

What would be justice is if the wayward spouses only walked away with their clothes. Lost house, kids, everything in the divorce. 

I would see a POSOM as if I woke up in the night and found him in my bedroom or that of my child. They are a direct threat to my marriage and welfare of my children and will be treated accordingly. 

Violence can solve much, but it can lead to other problems too. And killing a POSOM is not murder, it may be manslaughter, but not murder. Murder is taking innocent life. OM/OW are not innocent.


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## ThePheonix

Divinely Favored said:


> And killing a POSOM is not murder, it may be manslaughter, but not murder. Murder is taking innocent life. OM/OW are not innocent.


Do you believe the OM/OW should be subject to a much greater punishment than the cheating spouse?


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## *Deidre*

Thor said:


> In today's society I agree with you. It will end badly for the BS legally.
> 
> That's not necessarily the high road, as in it isn't necessarily the morally superior position. Punishment isn't the low road. Sending a message which deters others from engaging in harmful behavior to marriages is not the low road.
> 
> A large portion of people would commit murder if they knew they would get away with it. But instead they are peaceable law abiding citizens, due to the fear of the consequences (legal and social). Dirt bags who target married people would be much less likely to do so if they knew they stood to feel some real pain. Deterrence works.
> 
> A big part of the poacher mentality is "getting one over" on the BS. Without the chance of retribution they simply run amok and are energized by every success.
> 
> Admittedly it wouldn't solve the marital problems or personality defects leading the cheater to cheat, which is half the problem.


The person a BS should be most angry with is not the OM/OW, but their very own WS. The OM/OW was just the symptom of a bigger problem. The problem lies with the spouse, and with the marriage. Looking like a bad a$$ for ten minutes, won't help a man's marriage get back on track. And people who prey upon married people, they don't care...after their wounds heal, they'll be messing around with another vulnerable WS. It's just the way most cheaters seem to operate.


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## Kilgoretrout

*Deidre* said:


> The person a BS should be most angry with is not the OM/OW, but their very own WS. The OM/OW was just the symptom of a bigger problem. The problem lies with the spouse, and with the marriage. Looking like a bad a$$ for ten minutes, won't help a man's marriage get back on track. And people who prey upon married people, they don't care...after their wounds heal, they'll be messing around with another vulnerable WS. It's just the way most cheaters seem to operate.


I would hate both of them but obviously the cheating spouse is the worse betrayer
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Deidre*

Kilgoretrout said:


> I would hate both of them but obviously the cheating spouse is the worse betrayer
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was cheated on in a relationship, and I didn't even think about the girl, because I came to find out he lied to her too. She probably thought I was the OW. :surprise: 

That's the thing. In many cases, the spouse lies to the person they're cheating with, and for all you know, that person had no clue that your husband/wife was married. I had a friend whose husband cheated, and he told the OW he was divorced...so, yea. I rarely blame the OM/OW because it takes two to have an affair, and no one forces a spouse to become wayward.


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## Kilgoretrout

*Deidre* said:


> I was cheated on in a relationship, and I didn't even think about the girl, because I came to find out he lied to her too. She probably thought I was the OW. :surprise:
> 
> That's the thing. In many cases, the spouse lies to the person they're cheating with, and for all you know, that person had no clue that your husband/wife was married. I had a friend whose husband cheated, and he told the OW he was divorced...so, yea. I rarely blame the OM/OW because it takes two to have an affair, and no one forces a spouse to become wayward.


Fair point. But if the om or ow knows the other person has a spouse or so, then they suck too (though not as bad). I say that as someone who I don't believe has been cheated on
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Deidre*

Kilgoretrout said:


> Fair point. But if the om or ow knows the other person has a spouse or so, then they suck too (though not as bad). I say that as someone who I don't believe has been cheated on
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yea, the whole situation would suck. I feel for anyone in such a marital situation, especially if kids are involved.  But, assault...not the answer.


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## Kilgoretrout

*Deidre* said:


> Yea, the whole situation would suck. I feel for anyone in such a marital situation, especially if kids are involved.  But, assault...not the answer.


This thread is a bit of a downer, so here is a joke:
A man and woman had been married for 30 years, and in those 30 years, they always left the lights off when having sex. He was embarrassed and scared that he couldn't please her, so he always used a big dildo on her. All these years she had no clue. One day, she decided to reach over and flip the light switch on and saw that he was using a dildo. She said "I knew it, *******, explain the dildo!" He said, "Explain the kids!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Deidre*

Kilgoretrout said:


> This thread is a bit of a downer, so here is a joke:
> A man and woman had been married for 30 years, and in those 30 years, they always left the lights off when having sex. He was embarrassed and scared that he couldn't please her, so he always used a big dildo on her. All these years she had no clue. One day, she decided to reach over and flip the light switch on and saw that he was using a dildo. She said "I knew it, *******, explain the dildo!" He said, "Explain the kids!"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


lol!! that's great. levity for the win


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## Wolfman1968

Don't want to threadjack, but every time I see the title of this thread, I hear Elvis in my head.


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## ConanHub

*Deidre* said:


> The person a BS should be most angry with is not the OM/OW, but their very own WS. The OM/OW was just the symptom of a bigger problem. The problem lies with the spouse, and with the marriage. Looking like a bad a$$ for ten minutes, won't help a man's marriage get back on track. And people who prey upon married people, they don't care...after their wounds heal, they'll be messing around with another vulnerable WS. It's just the way most cheaters seem to operate.


It is a little harder after you have kicked their balls up into their throat, bent an arm or two in the wrong direction and moved their nose to the wrong side of their face. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Divinely Favored

ThePheonix said:


> Divinely Favored said:
> 
> 
> 
> And killing a POSOM is not murder, it may be manslaughter, but not murder. Murder is taking innocent life. OM/OW are not innocent.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you believe the OM/OW should be subject to a much greater punishment than the cheating spouse?
Click to expand...

As a man...I can see where a person loves spouse so the violence may not be dished out. I would leave like done gone or wrangler man and cast her in emotional desolation, I think that would hurt a woman more than physical assault would. I could not gey past an affair and i am the type to go nuclear and burn down the house, so to speak, to prove a point or force justice. The OM would not be emotional so he could only understand physical.

If he was unaware she was married..and is empathetic.then no he remains unharmed. If he knew and willingly violated my marriage and is an ass, then it is on like donky kong!


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## *Deidre*

ConanHub said:


> It is a little harder after you have kicked their balls up into their throat, bent an arm or two in the wrong direction and moved their nose to the wrong side of their face.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


yes, they'd be much less desirable then


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## destroyd

Yes, it is generally understood that the WS is where the real problem lies. Most of us betrayed get that 100%. In some situations the OM/OW was lied to as well as the BS. In others, they just don't give a damn that they are contributing to destroying a marriage. For the OM/OW to have NO consequences and walk away totally smug and unscathed after having their way with your WS is one of the most maddening aspects of it. In those cases I feel anything a WS can do within the law to visit justice on the other party is fair game.


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## Thor

*Deidre* said:


> The person a BS should be most angry with is not the OM/OW, but their very own WS. The OM/OW was just the symptom of a bigger problem. The problem lies with the spouse, and with the marriage. Looking like a bad a$$ for ten minutes, won't help a man's marriage get back on track. And people who prey upon married people, they don't care...after their wounds heal, they'll be messing around with another vulnerable WS. It's just the way most cheaters seem to operate.


I don't disagree with you. The cheater is the bigger problem. There may or may not be marriage issues the BS needs to look at, too.

But that is only part of the problem. The other part is OM/OW who happily seek out married partners. I don't mean an OM/OW who genuinely falls in love with someone who happens to be married, but who is a predator who specifically seeks out married partners. This is probably almost always men. They seek to trick the woman into sexual affairs. I have no idea how to find the post that was on here by one such man, so if someone else knows a quick link it might be helpful if you haven't read it yet.

There would be less cheating if there were fewer people inclined to get involved with married people out of fear of the repercussions. If cheating weren't so accepted in society as it is today, there would be less cheating and perhaps more people either working on their marriage or divorcing.

So yeah, it is a two pronged issue. Cheaters have problems which need to be resolved. But predatory poachers are also a problem needing to be solved.

It isn't about "appearing as a bada$$ for 10 minutes", it's about corporal punishment and deterrence. It is about changing the destructive behavior of those who intentionally seek to do harm.


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## *Deidre*

Thor said:


> I don't disagree with you. The cheater is the bigger problem. There may or may not be marriage issues the BS needs to look at, too.
> 
> But that is only part of the problem. The other part is OM/OW who happily seek out married partners. I don't mean an OM/OW who genuinely falls in love with someone who happens to be married, but who is a predator who specifically seeks out married partners. This is probably almost always men. They seek to trick the woman into sexual affairs. I have no idea how to find the post that was on here by one such man, so if someone else knows a quick link it might be helpful if you haven't read it yet.
> 
> There would be less cheating if there were fewer people inclined to get involved with married people out of fear of the repercussions. If cheating weren't so accepted in society as it is today, there would be less cheating and perhaps more people either working on their marriage or divorcing. And if you do jail time, no one will remember the details, and such a thing will affect the rest of your life, employment, etc. SO NOT WORTH IT!! Save your energy and either work on the marriage, or leave the cheating spouse. But, to put your energy onto the other person? It's really a waste of your life.
> 
> So yeah, it is a two pronged issue. Cheaters have problems which need to be resolved. But predatory poachers are also a problem needing to be solved.
> 
> It isn't about "appearing as a bada$$ for 10 minutes", it's about corporal punishment and deterrence. It is about changing the destructive behavior of those who intentionally seek to do harm.


But, it's very bad advice to break the law and assault someone. It's breaking the law, period. Unfortunately, there are no laws against being an a$$hole.  There are no laws against infidelity, and crimes of passion are prosecuted the same way as any other crime. So beating someone up for being an a$$hole, will land one in jail, or at least a court battle when the a$$hole decides to prosecute.


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## Thor

*Deidre* said:


> But, it's very bad advice to break the law and assault someone. It's breaking the law, period. Unfortunately, there are no laws against being an a$$hole.  There are no laws against infidelity, and crimes of passion are prosecuted the same way as any other crime. So beating someone up for being an a$$hole, will land one in jail, or at least a court battle when the a$$hole decides to prosecute.


My advice has consistently been not to touch the OM/OW because it is illegal and will end badly for the BS.


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## *Deidre*

Thor said:


> My advice has consistently been not to touch the OM/OW because it is illegal and will end badly for the BS.


This is what you posted:

_So yeah, it is a two pronged issue. Cheaters have problems which need to be resolved. But predatory poachers are also a problem needing to be solved.

It isn't about "appearing as a bada$$ for 10 minutes", *it's about corporal punishment and deterrence. It is about changing the destructive behavior of those who intentionally seek to do harm.*_

That's why I replied as I did, but anyway. lol We don't have to beat a dead horse. :laugh:


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## DavidWYoung

Hello, I have not posted for awhile. You are proving the point of not trusting white Western females. I live in Germany now to stay away from WWF. Thank you for your post thou, seems like nothing has changed! Just my two cents. David


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## Thor

*Deidre* said:


> This is what you posted:
> 
> _So yeah, it is a two pronged issue. Cheaters have problems which need to be resolved. But predatory poachers are also a problem needing to be solved.
> 
> It isn't about "appearing as a bada$$ for 10 minutes", *it's about corporal punishment and deterrence. It is about changing the destructive behavior of those who intentionally seek to do harm.*_
> 
> That's why I replied as I did, but anyway. lol We don't have to beat a dead horse. :laugh:


Here are the relevant parts of my previous posts



Thor said:


> Anyhow, no it isn't going to end well legally for the BS who assaults OM. For that reason I do not advocate any violence against OM.





Thor said:


> I agree, violence is a last resort and in today's world only for legitimate self defense.





Thor said:


> In today's society I agree with you. It will end badly for the BS legally.


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## See_Listen_Love

DavidWYoung said:


> Hello, I have not posted for awhile. You are proving the point of not trusting white Western females. I live in Germany now to stay away from WWF. Thank you for your post thou, seems like nothing has changed! Just my two cents. David


Are you one of those Guantanamo Bay prisoners they have transfered to Europe?


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## MAJDEATH

Thor said:


> davidd12 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The om is out of the picture. This is old, like a year plus. I figure confronting him won't be hard from the stand point of it is over and the risk to his current life is too grave to not spill it.
> 
> 
> 
> Expect 0% truth from OM.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily true. I contacted one of the OM that was involved with my FWW 12 yrs prior, and he was surprisingly candid and open to answering my questions.


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## DavidWYoung

No, just a guy that got burned twice, funny thing is, the one that hurt me the worst spoke to me a faceb88k and asked if she could visit. Yea, that is not going to happen. I lived in Belgium from 1970 to 1975, just saying.


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## bandit.45

See_Listen_Love said:


> Are you one of those Guantanamo Bay prisoners they have transfered to Europe?


No. He's a mysoginistic bigot jerking your chain. Ignore him.


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## Runs like Dog

I don't trust you, I love you anyway for free.


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## SunCMars

*Deidre* said:


> But, if you never knew this about the person, you would fly with him and just base your opinions of him on his merit in terms of performance. His committing adultery doesn't affect his competence as a trained soldier. You knowing he committed adultery is what changes how you view his competence...but doesn't really change his competence. Don't ask, don't tell...I think when it comes to people's sex lives in the military, that's how it should be.



Wow, whoopee get some it doesn't mean squat.

Yea, sure, sounds cut and dry. All's fair in love and war. But if your husband was in the Reserve Forces and was deployed and cheated with one of his subordinates, naturally you would not want him held accountable, right? 

Someone who has character issues and disobeys UCMJ, [military rules of behavior] cannot be trusted in life and death situations. Ever heard of "An Officer and a Gentlemen". This concept has been watered down nowadays, but some Commanders honor it to the hilt. It takes a lot of character and strength of purpose and WILL to survive in the military. It is very easy to quit, not re-up. 

Morale is a very important concept in our Armed Forces. Anything that hurts morale is looked at carefully and corrected. Rampant cheating crushes morale. The BS Soldier, Sailor, AM or Marine cannot keep his mind on the very dangerous job he is doing if he thinks his/her spouse is cheating back home. Yea, while he is in the boonies somewhere in some God forsaken dust bowl.

I do not want to be a foxhole facing a deadly enemy knowing a cheater had my back. It is called honor, a concept that civilians have no concept of anymore. I am a military retiree. Much has changed for the worse in the last 20 years, or so. Not wanting to be a dic& but this needs to be said.


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## davidd12

Not that I want this thread to go on and on, but I thought I'd check in.

For the last few weeks things have been so so. Nothing flying up on the radar with the SO. It really is about the worst thing to feel like you've been cheated on. It has taken a toll on me emotionally. Sleep has been tough and I just don't feel towards her like I have in the past. I'm way more doubting of her. 

Right now I have so much going on outside of this. I recently took a new job and we moved for it. I also think that one of the reasons I started questioning was in a moment of darkness after she miscarried in November. Our relationship has changed in a lot of ways and this could just be the scape goat for me or the point of self realization of what our relationship is, idk.

As most have said here, she probably cheated and getting that from this many sources has me in a state of questioning and doubt. I've felt gas lighted before with her and know without doubt she does it, at times when I know the facts.

So now it comes to do I just divorce or try to work it out. I haven't answered that question. I'm moving on from the past instances and I'm going forward with my eyes wide open, or trying my best to be honest with myself and be ready for whatever might come up. That has left me with a question for some. Do any of you know how to look to see if Facebook messages or messenger messages have been deleted? Her text and phone records are clear but on her phone she has a lot of Internet usage, but no odd apps on her iphone.


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## eric1

You can't find deleted Facebook messages but look at her search history on Facebook. Also go through her friends list very closely 

And don't be sure to dismiss 'no odd apps'. Right now Trivia Crack is being used to conduct more affairs than to provide Trivia-based entertainment


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## G.J.

ONLY chance if she hasn't perminatly deleted them

go to the top right tab which drops down and you will se settings

click on 'Download a copy of your Facebook data'.

It will be sent to her email so you will need to be able to access that as well

unrar it and read


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## TAMAT

David,

My quick summary of your situation is that your WW has a need for sex that will come to a head every 5 or so years, possibly as soon as every 3 years.

If you intend to stay with this woman you will be wise to go into full surveillance mode.

At least now you know what to look for. I didn't know what to look for until I was in my late 40's.

Tamat


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## Chaparral

Be sure and check the box of her email. Cheaters give each other the passwords to email and just read what's in the compose folder without actually sending the emails. This was made famous by Gen Petraus.


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## See_Listen_Love

davidd12 said:


> The only thing she did was oral once out of the blue, she had done that once maybe twice in the prior 5 years. I was happy about that, so the next time we have sex, she requests that we turn all the light off. That has never been a request before. It was totally black and I couldn't see a thing and I'll add has never happened since. She also works late a few nights and this guy is with her. She also told me about him and his time in the army, and how he had scares from wounds he got. A little later she was talking with my daughter about how sexy scars are on a man. While I'm suspicious at this point the event that brings it all to a head was when he quit all of a sudden and got a job with the feds, I've had people get hired for the feds and they call their current boss to get the low down on the employee usually multiple times and always a paper document, but she never got those calls or document. So then she bought him a gift for this girlfriend (I worked for Tiffany & Co at the time and they have an employee store where she got a $15 item) explaining he is poor and loves his girlfriend and it was for her birthday. I made a comment when we were joking saying at least you got laid for it, like I was referencing him as the person I was talking to, because the prior interaction was related to him in that sense. She got real quiet and inverted for a second which isn't her and at that moment I knew I struck a cord. I accused her at that moment of sleeping with him



The story is actually about you.

You have accepted the role of cuckold. You know it, said it, and took not the right actions.

I would focus on how to change your own behavior, if you change, all things around you will change.


----------

