# Going Crazy Trying to figure out things



## Bremik

It has been awhile since I have posted. Basically, thanks to many PM from members here I tried to set boundaries for my wife specifically with a current coworker and wanted to make clear that honesty was the key to moving forward. Her chatter with him continues through emails which are hard to retrieve due to being deleted etc. I haven't found anything huge but they aren't 100% business either. Jokes or general chit chat. The point would be he was identified as a problem and contact with him was to be limited to professional only since they do work together.

The biggie was he invited my wife to go to lunch with him and another female coworker who was leaving. I only found this through an ERASED email that it was asked and never saw her response though I know she did go. Part of the problem was her office already had a going away party for the person so why he felt it necessary to go to lunch I don't know. So it's not earth shattering but on top of everything else she didn't see the need to tell me any of this and I wouldn't have known if I hadn't seen the deleted email. 

There is also a community sports event where local businesses compete against each other and her company is involved. It was the problem coworker that got her involved originally and also conveniently was on her volleyball team as well. We had discussed before that it wasn't a good idea given the circumstances that she participate in it again yet she had all intentions of doing it again this year until I brought up not being happy about it. Again I had no idea until I overheard her talking to a mutual friend who also works there about doing it.

From my discussion with my wife 2-3 months ago I basically said don't let me find out something you didn't tell me especially when it comes to him and I did put separation on the table as a consequence. Here we are.
She has turned up the sweetness to the highest degree, we still don't fight at all, sex life is normal to above average so from all outside observations things are good. I finally confided in a mutual friend we have with topics going all the way back to when my wife was in school and they were shocked because they actually were of the impression that we were possibly the best couple they knew. This is where my "going crazy" comes in because my relationship outside of whatever it is my wife does or thinks with other guy friends/coworkers isn't nasty or confrontational.

My problem is because even though what is going on now isn't maybe as bad as the past it has caused me to become some form of angry that we are still in this cycle of - do something she shouldn't, get caught, appear devastated, turn up the sweetness- repeat. It may not be possible but in my mind I feel I enabled her to be this way because I didn't do something about it long ago for whatever reason and now I want her to tell me what went on then and what is going on now starting with what was the content of the erased texts with her current coworker. I have been trying to get her to talk for about 3 weeks now and when we get started something always "comes up" and we never finish. I also am finding that I don't think I love her the same due to the lack of trust and am really beginning to wonder if the grass is greener on the other side.
Though I still am extremely attracted to her and don't hate her at all I just feel like I am looking at her different these days. It is just weird and I think talking to our friend made me realize why I am so confused. A lot of relationship talk on here people don't talk, fight a lot, don't have sex or even sleep in other rooms- we have NEVER been that way. I just can't figure out what goes on in her head and based on our last talk her going to lunch with him to start with and not telling me at all on top of that seems like it should be a deal breaker.

Am I crazy?

I


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## Lostinthought61

No your not crazy, and what your feeling is honest and truthful, her actions has caused her reflection in you to be tainted, there is a hint of sourness when you kiss her sweet lips and to be truthful you need to tell her that.


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## TBT

bremik said:


> A lot of relationship talk on here people don't talk, fight a lot, don't have sex or even sleep in other rooms- we have NEVER been that way.


You're also in a relationship where she has been constantly deceitful and you are distrustful of her and it's been going on for years. Is that an acceptable trade-off for what you said above?



> Am I crazy?I


You're crazy for putting up with this for so many years. There has to be zero tolerance for any type of deceit. Right now the marriage isn't hard for her,only you. She sheds a few tears and is sweetness and light because it works for her. Meanwhile,you suffer. I feel for you brother,I really do. I hate infidelity and what it does to good people.


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## TheTruthHurts

I would be honest with her and let her know your love for is slipping away, and only she can save it. That will only come with full transparency, and even then there is no guarantee. And the fact that you did not "stop" her in the past has no bearing. It is an accumulation of "love busters" and partial truths and hidden lies that is the cause.

I would be crystal clear that you can not stop this disintegration. And ask if she cares enough to do the hard work necessary to repair what she's broken 


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## Bremik

TBT said:


> You're also in a relationship where she has been constantly deceitful and you are distrustful of her and it's been going on for years. Is that an acceptable trade-off for what you said above?
> 
> Not necessarily a good trade off - just trying to make the point that it isn't like we are at it like cats and dogs or that I despise the sight of her
> 
> 
> 
> You're crazy for putting up with this for so many years. There has to be zero tolerance for any type of deceit. Right now the marriage isn't hard for her,only you. She sheds a few tears and is sweetness and light because it works for her. Meanwhile,you suffer. I feel for you brother,I really do. I hate infidelity and what it does to good people.


Thanks! It is a very weird and stressful experience


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## Bremik

Thank you to the replies. I just don't understand why she can't get it. Maybe it's simply that it is because she is getting by with it so why worry? I have been trying to talk to her for a few weeks now and haven't gotten anywhere. 

At one point she said we still have fun together but financial issues affect our relationship more than they used to. I told her I would give her an out- I would take all debt and she can leave, that way her job would supply enough income for her to rent a place, buy a car and live comfortably. She immediately said no. 

If I drew the line in the sand and said be transparent or we separate and she wasn't transparent then what else do I do to get the point across? The only thing I can come up with is to spend some time apart and see what happens. It would logistically be very hard to do and she would probably just have to stay with her parents who are 2 hrs from us and about 1 hr and 10 min from her work. What do we tell the kids? friends? In some ways it could be good if she has to tell her family what is going on but there is always the potential that could come back on me somehow- blood thicker than water type thing. 

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated


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## Openminded

Oh, she totally gets it. Without a doubt. She just hopes that you don't. Tell her that you do. But don't threaten separation/divorce unless you're prepared to do it. Otherwise, you look weak.


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## Manchester

bremik said:


> I basically said don't let me find out something you didn't tell me especially when it comes to himI


That probably wasn't necessary. Seems fairly obvious she's doing a real good job covering her tracks. As far as she's concerned, you know as much as she wants you to know, and nothing more.


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## TheTruthHurts

Sounds like you want to change her. Not going to happen. You don't have a lot of arrows in your quiver but the ones you do are very sharp indeed.

Once you lay down the line you stick to it. That's all. She changes on her own or you move on.

That's how it works. You don't threaten to leave... then stay... then separate and see what happens, etc. Doing that shows you are manipulating her in the hopes of her changing.

No. You make YOUR decision. Then you tell her the ground rules and ask if she even wants to meet your ground rules. If not - and that's a possibility - you act as you said you would and leave. If yes, then you give her a chance to act according to the agreement. If she fails, you act as you said you would.

This isn't a game. It is you valuing yourself and telling her that and laying out boundaries, ground rules, and consequences.

AFTER t you act and move on, you can always reconsider your position IF she changes and IF you believe it and IF you want to. No guarantees. And if you reconsider it's not carte blanch to revert. Same rules apply but perhaps without a grace period

This is strength, character and self respect. And not surprisingly, it is attractive, even to those at the wrong end of it.


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## aine

bremik said:


> Thank you to the replies. I just don't understand why she can't get it. Maybe it's simply that it is because she is getting by with it so why worry? I have been trying to talk to her for a few weeks now and haven't gotten anywhere.
> 
> At one point she said we still have fun together but financial issues affect our relationship more than they used to. I told her I would give her an out- I would take all debt and she can leave, that way her job would supply enough income for her to rent a place, buy a car and live comfortably. She immediately said no.
> 
> If I drew the line in the sand and said be transparent or we separate and she wasn't transparent then what else do I do to get the point across? The only thing I can come up with is to spend some time apart and see what happens. It would logistically be very hard to do and she would probably just have to stay with her parents who are 2 hrs from us and about 1 hr and 10 min from her work. What do we tell the kids? friends? In some ways it could be good if she has to tell her family what is going on but there is always the potential that could come back on me somehow- blood thicker than water type thing.
> 
> Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated


Bremilk, sorry you are in this position but if there are no consequences she will repeat the behaviour, I have learned that the hard way. 
Your wife is one of three things

1. a narcissist, who really only cares about herself and what is to her advantage
2. a wife who has little if any respect for you and thinks you will still be around regardless
3. Your wife no longer cares is she hurts you

There is no point in making her see your point of view. Do the following

1. tell her she has hurt you and you are not prepared to reinvest in the marriage and are considering your options re divorce. You must come across strong and not weak
2. move out of the bedroom
3. do not deal with her except in as far as the kids are concerned, keep it official
4. do the 180 on her , this is a day by day process
5. let her feel what it will be like for you to leave her
6. start working on yourself, go to the gym, get nice new shirt, get your hair done, act as if life will be fine without her in it

This may wake her up. If so, then go for couples counselling and trash out these issues, if not you are one step along the road to leaving.


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## Satya

She's not getting it because you haven't made your terms non-negotiable. Far from it. 

You request a boundary and she skips right around it. You're not separating, so your boundary about her keeping secrets from you is useless. 

- She needs to find a new job
- She needs to write him a NC letter, under your supervision. 
- She quits the volleyball yesterday. 
- She needs to show you her emails. If this is WORK email, IT has a complete archive of all her mail. Telling HR you think she is in breach of the company's acceptable use policy for her personal mail use may prompt an audit of her email. Her secrets won't be shared with you, but they will be shared with management. She could be terminated, so be very sure before you take a step like this. My point of this is, she is misusing company resources depending on the frequency and content of her email. 

Tell her flatly, what you are and are not OK with, and don't be afraid to pull the plug at any time. It's your fear that allows her bad behavior. You're not crazy or overreacting. You're blowing hot air without followup. She has poor boundaries for a married woman and an obvious disrespect for you. Who wants that when there are thousands of women out there who don't act like this with men they love?


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## Bremik

Thank you for the replies. Maybe it has just taken me this long to be officially tired of it- and some getting yelled at on this site didn't hurt?!

I know she is avoiding talking about it because I think she has an idea something has changed in me. Not anything huge but a definite change. Again the kicker in all this is we can function day to day with no issues at home. It is just that now I always have in the back of my mind what else is going on at work. I will bring all the issues up when we do finally talk and she will have the deer in the headlights look like she never even thought about any of her recent actions being an issue- just like all the times before.

I talked some recently to a past pastor of ours and his simple conclusion is she definitely needs/likes attention from other guys for some reason. I talked to him because he knew us pretty well and would know how we appear versus what was going on behind the scenes. I really hate to end a marriage because of someone being stupid but my gosh dealing with it for over 20 yrs isn't like I haven't tried. I did the math and came up that out of 24 yrs 9-10 of them were some sort of dealing with these types of issues- some worse than others. I just don't get it. But maybe I never will.

The 180 is what I really need to focus on somehow. I feel like I married a movie star and won't replace that but can replace the attitude with better. The biggest problem for me is the physical attraction and the knowing how bad ripple effects are from a problem/failed marriage- I keep thinking why am I the only one who seems to be thinking about all this! I was asked if the kids know anything and I can very confidently say they don't plus some of the worst things were before they were born or when they would have been too young to have any idea.

It is like you have to remove yourself from the situation but I haven't been fully able to do that yet. It is weak I know but I can be tough for 3-4 days then the physical attraction/compatibility win out- the negatives of being a male I guess. Somehow I have to overcome it. I have come to the conclusion that she may be fully aware of my weakness and that is why we are where we are at. Whether conscious or sub conscious I don't know.


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## TheTruthHurts

Time to put the cards on the table.

She could also be codependent and need external validation. In other words she may seek attention - even inappropriate attention - then hide it so as to avoid hurting you (that's the codependency).

But it's time to clear your thoughts, make a list of what is acceptable and unacceptable, view your situation from a third party perspectives, and then give that guy some advice.

It sounds like you actually know what you want and need. I suggested writing it down because you just said you get muddled brain after a few days because of the sex. Well, be more objective and take your time to organize your thoughts on paper.

You can then share them with us or in IC. An independent view will help validate your position and help with your resolve. Also point out holes, unreasonable perspectives, etc.

Good luck and get to it


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## dubsey

My situation was relatively similar to yours. In the end, I chose to get divorced, due to my own inabilities to trust. After she went out of her way to deceive me about meeting up with someone for coffee (I found out before it, so it never actually happened), I told her I was unwilling to have to spend my life verifying stuff, and we got divorced.

Our marriage was very very good, outside of that, and I'll freely admit, the issue was more mine than hers, but it was a line I wasn't willing to cross.

Time went by, and we're back together now, but I'll never marry again. If she doesn't want to be here, she's free to leave at any time, and so am I. It works for us because now we both have to be invested in what we have in order to keep it.

I don't know if this helps, or gives you any other ideas, but this was that path that worked for me.


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## TheTruthHurts

@dubsey wow so you trust each other enough to be a couple but not enough to be married. How long has this been the case?


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## dubsey

It's been a few years now. We were officially divorced and living apart for 6+ months before had a long talk.

Honestly, it probably wouldn't work at all for me if I wasn't sure that nothing actually happened. There's something strangely comforting about not worrying about it because if something feels off, and I see something I don't like I can just kind of walk away, and at the same time knowing that we each have to stay engaged with the other and not take anything for granted. I don't know, it just works for me. I think she likes it less, but understands and is more of the "better this way than nothing" 

Mostly, I just view it as legal detanglement, for lack of a better term. No different than if someone was to do a post-nup, really. We live together but have separate finances etc, and if we want to split, there's really nothing to haggle over, that's already been done.

It's really far more complicated than this, but it's the TL;DR version of the cluster that was my life for a while.


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## Bremik

dubsey said:


> My situation was relatively similar to yours. In the end, I chose to get divorced, due to my own inabilities to trust. After she went out of her way to deceive me about meeting up with someone for coffee (I found out before it, so it never actually happened), I told her I was unwilling to have to spend my life verifying stuff, and we got divorced.
> 
> Our marriage was very very good, outside of that, and I'll freely admit, the issue was more mine than hers, but it was a line I wasn't willing to cross.
> 
> Time went by, and we're back together now, but I'll never marry again. If she doesn't want to be here, she's free to leave at any time, and so am I. It works for us because now we both have to be invested in what we have in order to keep it.
> 
> I don't know if this helps, or gives you any other ideas, but this was that path that worked for me.



I would like to hear more of your story. Did you contact her at all while apart? Did she make you question your decision initially? Why was the issue more yours than hers? Had there been other times she lied to you? Do you have children? Was there a specific turning point for you and how did you stay focused on what you wanted to do? My problem is she can cry me right into thinking I am crazy. I have no illusions that somehow I will find someone I am as attracted to as my wife- she has aged so well and I think she just gets better with age- but I do think I can find someone I can trust a lot more. There are so many women that would kill to be treated the way I treat her- all her sisters regularly say they are jealous.

We could PM if you prefer.


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## Bremik

TheTruthHurts said:


> Time to put the cards on the table.
> 
> She could also be codependent and need external validation. In other words she may seek attention - even inappropriate attention - then hide it so as to avoid hurting you (that's the codependency).
> 
> But it's time to clear your thoughts, make a list of what is acceptable and unacceptable, view your situation from a third party perspectives, and then give that guy some advice.
> 
> It sounds like you actually know what you want and need. I suggested writing it down because you just said you get muddled brain after a few days because of the sex. Well, be more objective and take your time to organize your thoughts on paper.
> 
> You can then share them with us or in IC. An independent view will help validate your position and help with your resolve. Also point out holes, unreasonable perspectives, etc.
> 
> Good luck and get to it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I really like this. I will work on those thoughts and the list and get back with you!


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## TAM2013

bremik, the hardest thing for you to do now is accept that you are hopelessly consumed with your wife and your happiness depends on her, not yourself. I know the blissful moments keep you hooked but the brutality gets worse. She can't be transparent. She just can't. Say it 1000 times. Stare at Waterhouse's The Siren and it might sink in. Your mental health relies on you extracting yourself.

Consolation? She'll be like this with everyone in her future.


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## TAM2013

Forgot to say, the deer in the headlights comment, this is when she's caught on a lie or deception. Do her pupils dilate and her eyes go glassy? That's her mind going into cognitive overload trying to get out of the sh't. She'll spin more and more lies. She can't help it. That part of her brain is malfunctioning.

It's sick that 'that look' is when their allure is the strongest. I found it irresistible. You have to turn away or the cycle continues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dubsey

bremik said:


> I would like to hear more of your story. Did you contact her at all while apart? Did she make you question your decision initially? Why was the issue more yours than hers? Had there been other times she lied to you? Do you have children? Was there a specific turning point for you and how did you stay focused on what you wanted to do? My problem is she can cry me right into thinking I am crazy. I have no illusions that somehow I will find someone I am as attracted to as my wife- she has aged so well and I think she just gets better with age- but I do think I can find someone I can trust a lot more. There are so many women that would kill to be treated the way I treat her- all her sisters regularly say they are jealous.
> 
> We could PM if you prefer.


I could write a small novel, but again, the TL;DR version

She started contacting an ex in a fit of retroactive jealousy, after she'd met up with an ex of mine that I hadn't seen or heard from in 15 years. They chatted a lot, and it was pretty apparent the ex still carried a torch, even though she was the one that broke it off. So, she started chatting with her ex, allegedly, just to see if she could create the same kind of pull. Anyway, I found out because her iMessages would come through on the iPad. I gave her a bunch of outs, but when she left to have coffee with him, after I offered to go with to "run errands", I texted her a screen shot of the IMs with "I tried to stop you. We're done." So, the lies were too much, plus she's very "responsive desire" so yeah, dangerous game she was trying to play and I wasn't - I'm still not really ok with it.

So, the trust issues are mine. She begged and pleaded, but I had a really rough childhood - like make you ugly cry watching it at a movie childhood, so trust isn't easy with me, and I just knew I couldn't handle the lies. We never fought or anything, but I just couldn't handle it, so, we got divorced. We do have a kid, so there was always contact throughout the process. We were good co-parents and outside of the embarrassment of "what happened" around town, everything was ok. So, 6 months or so after it was all official, we kind of got back together after a long car ride. First overnight camp for our son was 4 hours away, so we were 4 hours alone in the car on the way back just talking, about what bothered her and made her do it - what she wanted from me, etc. I think car rides are better than pillow talk to discuss really important stuff. You can't really leave the room.

So, yeah, that's the quick-ish version. Like I said, she knows we'll never re-marry. I just don't want to do it, but I was never unhappy with the life we had, but it's somehow easier for me now. There doesn't need to be a big event for either of us to say "this isn't working" and we're done, so it kind of forces us to show each other that we want to continue with what we have every day/week/month/whatever.


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## TheTruthHurts

TAM2013 said:


> Forgot to say, the deer in the headlights comment, this is when she's caught on a lie or deception. Do her pupils dilate and her eyes go glassy? That's her mind going into cognitive overload trying to get out of the sh't. She'll spin more and more lies. She can't help it. That part of her brain is malfunctioning.
> 
> 
> 
> It's sick that 'that look' is when their allure is the strongest. I found it irresistible. You have to turn away or the cycle continues.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I may have missed it but did OP say she cheated? If he only suspects and she isn't transparent it might be salvageable.

The clergy pointed out her need for external validation. Ask @blueinbr about that. He'll tell you that some women feed off of that and never intend to take any action. And OP said otherwise things are good (unless I'm mixing posts). So her deer in headlights look could be related to the deceit and shame related to trolling for attention, rather than infidelity. And finally, OP has confessed to being wishy washy and lacking followthrough in setting boundaries and consequences.

For those reasons I'd like OP to take another crack at it. There are notable successes on TAM of spouses coming around when confronted with a resolute partner. Lonely Husband is an example.


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## becareful2

She doesn't respect you or your boundaries, because she knows you're too fearful to enforce those boundaries. Without respect, how can a marriage survive? A wife needs to respect her husband, and vice versa, but you have none of it at the moment. She pushes the envelope for 9-10 out of the 24 years because she knows she can. Did the affair go physical?

Tell her something like this:

"Wife, we both know you don't respect me or the boundaries I require of you. You know how much I love you and you take advantage of that to push those boundaries. Well, I'm tired of it all. I don't want to do this anymore. I am tired of looking over your shoulder to see if you're behaving with integrity when I'm not around, so expect to be served sometime this week. A wife with questionable integrity is of little value to me, regardless of how attractive or educated she is. I can definitely replace you, as I know there are many women out there who would kill to be treated the way I treat you. Even your own sisters have said how jealous they are of you, so you are definitely replaceable. I want to grow old with a safe partner, and if it ends up that when we die, we don't get buried next to each other, then so be it. I've been trying to keep this marriage together for years, and I'm tired of fighting for us."

Have her served at work. (consequence #1)
Give her a 50/50 divorce at most and DO NOT TAKE ON ALL HER DEBT! (consequence #2)
Do the 180. Keep the conversation limited to the divorce and kids only. Keep it short and pithy and no chit-chat. (consequence #3)
Get a life without her: go out, overhaul your wardrobe, hang out with friends. (consequence #4)
Stop having sex with her! (consequence #5)

You have to get back your self-respect.


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## becareful2

dubsey said:


> I could write a small novel, but again, the TL;DR version
> 
> She started contacting an ex in a fit of retroactive jealousy, after she'd met up with an ex of mine that I hadn't seen or heard from in 15 years. They chatted a lot, and it was pretty apparent the ex still carried a torch, even though she was the one that broke it off. So, she started chatting with her ex, allegedly, just to see if she could create the same kind of pull. Anyway, I found out because her iMessages would come through on the iPad. I gave her a bunch of outs, but when she left to have coffee with him, after I offered to go with to "run errands", I texted her a screen shot of the IMs with "I tried to stop you. We're done." So, the lies were too much, plus she's very "responsive desire" so yeah, dangerous game she was trying to play and I wasn't - I'm still not really ok with it.
> 
> So, the trust issues are mine. She begged and pleaded, but I had a really rough childhood - like make you ugly cry watching it at a movie childhood, so trust isn't easy with me, and I just knew I couldn't handle the lies. We never fought or anything, but I just couldn't handle it, so, we got divorced. We do have a kid, so there was always contact throughout the process. We were good co-parents and outside of the embarrassment of "what happened" around town, everything was ok. So, 6 months or so after it was all official, we kind of got back together after a long car ride. First overnight camp for our son was 4 hours away, so we were 4 hours alone in the car on the way back just talking, about what bothered her and made her do it - what she wanted from me, etc. I think car rides are better than pillow talk to discuss really important stuff. You can't really leave the room.
> 
> So, yeah, that's the quick-ish version. Like I said, she knows we'll never re-marry. I just don't want to do it, but I was never unhappy with the life we had, but it's somehow easier for me now. There doesn't need to be a big event for either of us to say "this isn't working" and we're done, so it kind of forces us to show each other that we want to continue with what we have every day/week/month/whatever.


Did your wife got together with her ex or anybody else during the 6 months you were apart?


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## dubsey

we were apart for more than 6 months. it was 6 months after we were officially divorced.

I never asked, and I won't. She has more than once voluntarily insist she didn't. I don't care. We weren't together, so it's really none of my business. It really wasn't about any interest she had in her ex other than she wanted to see if she could still make him interested, because my ex was still interested in me, I guess. 

For me, it was about the lie. If she said she wanted to go have coffee with him, I'd have been fine with it. We see him around town from time to time. He's a nice enough guy.


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## TAM2013

TheTruthHurts said:


> I may have missed it but did OP say she cheated? If he only suspects and she isn't transparent it might be salvageable.
> 
> The clergy pointed out her need for external validation. Ask @blueinbr about that. He'll tell you that some women feed off of that and never intend to take any action. And OP said otherwise things are good (unless I'm mixing posts). *So her deer in headlights look could be related to the deceit and shame related to trolling for attention, rather than infidelity.* And finally, OP has confessed to being wishy washy and lacking followthrough in setting boundaries and consequences.
> 
> For those reasons I'd like OP to take another crack at it. There are notable successes on TAM of spouses coming around when confronted with a resolute partner. Lonely Husband is an example.


Yes, very clever. The bolded has been my experience with these women, not necessarily that they cheated. But once they've blind sided you and proved they're dishonest, how can you believe a word they say? And their desperation for attention gets them in to situations where infidelity is possible. It becomes like it's inevitable.

No pvssy is worth your mental health.


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## Bremik

TheTruthHurts said:


> I may have missed it but did OP say she cheated? If he only suspects and she isn't transparent it might be salvageable.
> 
> The clergy pointed out her need for external validation. Ask @blueinbr about that. He'll tell you that some women feed off of that and never intend to take any action. And OP said otherwise things are good (unless I'm mixing posts). So her deer in headlights look could be related to the deceit and shame related to trolling for attention, rather than infidelity. And finally, OP has confessed to being wishy washy and lacking followthrough in setting boundaries and consequences.
> 
> For those reasons I'd like OP to take another crack at it. There are notable successes on TAM of spouses coming around when confronted with a resolute partner. Lonely Husband is an example.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The cheating question is the million dollar question. Both you and TAM2013 are a very few that think it is possible she is hooked on the attention with no intent of cheating. I wholeheartedly agree that it totally sets her up for trouble whether she intended it or not. I honestly have no idea. My best guess is she has done it enough and long enough to the wrong people that they have tried to pursue further action. I just know I am tired of worrying about it and having to always check up on her.


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## VeryHurt

Bremik ~
Oh my, she is treating you horribly.
No wonder you feel like you're going crazy.
Is it worth it?
VH


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## Bremik

So here is my checklist of what I want to talk about and what I don't know how to pursue.

1. I want to know what went on in college. I never questioned trust then but now I do think I should question it. I also don't want a marriage based on a lie. If she did cheat with who I consider the worst one and repeated problem of all these issues then I feel like I have a right to know. Something went on I just don't know what.

2. I want to know what was in the texts that were all erased with her current coworker. I also want to know what was said or done that got them stopped immediately and made them switch to emails. Something was bad enough in those texts to be erased.

PROBLEM- As has been mentioned in other topics on TAM- if she hasn't confessed yet she is very likely not to now. So don't know if I can get anywhere with these.

I have been lied more than once to about whether or not she was in the office, why she was going on a totally unrelated trip with a judging team she had volunteered to help with before, not telling me she was going to lunch with the male coworker. All these I want answers to as to why I was lied to.

PROBLEM- Do the same issues mentioned above apply here? Meaning - is she likely to tell me?

So here is my problem. The likelihood of her being able or wanting to answer my questions is not real promising. How do I proceed from here. The going to lunch with the coworker happened after I told her she needed to be transparent or it might be time to separate. I do like the idea that you can always get back together if a separation/divorce occurs- in fact come to think of it my sister has been divorced 2x from the same guy and is back with him! It is just taking that step if it is truly needed.

My problem is I think she likes the attention with no desire to go away from me. There is more than enough evidence to suggest she has been at the very least in very dangerous territory. 99% of the people on here think she has cheated. I agree I can't MAKE her come around or influence how she thinks and it was a great point to make. I also agree my happiness is too dependent on her which I am guessing is why this is so hard for me to make a move. But it is also consuming me too much. I am jealous of Dubsey- you seem to be in a good place and it does seem there are common themes between my wife and your ex. I just don't know how to get to the point you are at.

The whole idea of separating just feels to me like I am standing on a cliff with my wife telling her we will have to jump if she doesn't get this figured out. I know it won't be good and could be permanent damage. It kills me that she isn't thinking about that- and it all could be just because she likes attention. I have overlooked and done everything I can to not be on that cliff yet here we are. I can't shake the deep down thought that she is just being dumb about all this but as said before- the grass is starting to look a little greener on the other side-


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## Bremik

VeryHurt said:


> Bremik ~
> Oh my, she is treating you horribly.
> No wonder you feel like you're going crazy.
> Is it worth it?
> VH


I don't know if it's worth it. Trying to give some kind of last chance but don't know if I should or how.


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## dubsey

You have to be willing to give up what you have. I didn't get divorced with the intention of re-starting a relationship with my ex. I was done. It just has worked out that way.

What we had together is gone. It'll never come back. It'll never be the same. What I have with her now is different. Good, but different - and it certainly has it's challenges and things that trigger sadness (her, much more-so than me, actually) remembering that it's not the same too. But, it's part of a different burden we go through together.


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## VeryHurt

bremik said:


> I don't know if it's worth it. Trying to give some kind of last chance but don't know if I should or how.


I will briefly tell you my story: 
Married 33 + years. 
Divorced 6 weeks ago today. 
ExH strung me along for 8 years. 
I was an idiot to tolerate his mental/emotional abuse.
It was horrible waiting for him to give up on other woman/women and "pick me."
Don't torture yourself like I did.
It's NOT worth it!


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## TAM2013

bremik, LET GO.


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## Bremik

VeryHurt said:


> I will briefly tell you my story:
> Married 33 + years.
> Divorced 6 weeks ago today.
> ExH strung me along for 8 years.
> I was an idiot to tolerate his mental/emotional abuse.
> It was horrible waiting for him to give up on other woman/women and "pick me."
> Don't torture yourself like I did.
> It's NOT worth it!


So everything was good until the last 8 yrs or you just finally got tired of it in the last 8 yrs?


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## sokillme

dubsey said:


> It's been a few years now. We were officially divorced and living apart for 6+ months before had a long talk.
> 
> Honestly, it probably wouldn't work at all for me if I wasn't sure that nothing actually happened. There's something strangely comforting about not worrying about it because if something feels off, and I see something I don't like I can just kind of walk away, and at the same time knowing that we each have to stay engaged with the other and not take anything for granted. I don't know, it just works for me. I think she likes it less, but understands and is more of the "better this way than nothing"
> 
> Mostly, I just view it as legal detanglement, for lack of a better term. No different than if someone was to do a post-nup, really. We live together but have separate finances etc, and if we want to split, there's really nothing to haggle over, that's already been done.
> 
> It's really far more complicated than this, but it's the TL;DR version of the cluster that was my life for a while.


This is where we are headed in the modern world I think. In an entitled "me first" society marriage doesn't really work well anymore.


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## sokillme

bremik said:


> I would like to hear more of your story. Did you contact her at all while apart? Did she make you question your decision initially? Why was the issue more yours than hers? Had there been other times she lied to you? Do you have children? Was there a specific turning point for you and how did you stay focused on what you wanted to do? My problem is she can cry me right into thinking I am crazy. I have no illusions that somehow I will find someone I am as attracted to as my wife- she has aged so well and I think she just gets better with age- but I do think I can find someone I can trust a lot more. There are so many women that would kill to be treated the way I treat her- all her sisters regularly say they are jealous.
> 
> We could PM if you prefer.



Attraction can grow with love, you see her as a loving husband sees his wife, this will change when your bond goes away. Don't sell yourself short get in shape and you may find someone you are more attractive to. Also what good is having a sports car if the engine doesn't work. You get my meaning.

If she is that desperate have her take a poly. Bet she won't though.


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## VeryHurt

bremik said:


> So everything was good until the last 8 yrs or you just finally got tired of it in the last 8 yrs?


Everything was normal (whatever "normal" means up) until I sustained a horrible leg injury in an accident he he flipped out and could not cope. 

(Looking back. he had a lot of issues that remained dormant until my fall i.e.: sociopath, narcissism) 

His sec'y was more that willing to help him get through HIS trauma of MY injury and the rest is history .........

Bremik, I can almost assure you things will not get better and I KNOW it's incredible painful to face reality and move on. 

Be strong my friend!


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## sokillme

becareful2 said:


> She doesn't respect you or your boundaries, because she knows you're too fearful to enforce those boundaries. Without respect, how can a marriage survive? A wife needs to respect her husband, and vice versa, but you have none of it at the moment. She pushes the envelope for 9-10 out of the 24 years because she knows she can. Did the affair go physical?
> 
> Tell her something like this:
> 
> "Wife, we both know you don't respect me or the boundaries I require of you. You know how much I love you and you take advantage of that to push those boundaries. Well, I'm tired of it all. I don't want to do this anymore. I am tired of looking over your shoulder to see if you're behaving with integrity when I'm not around, so expect to be served sometime this week. A wife with questionable integrity is of little value to me, regardless of how attractive or educated she is. I can definitely replace you, as I know there are many women out there who would kill to be treated the way I treat you. Even your own sisters have said how jealous they are of you, so you are definitely replaceable. I want to grow old with a safe partner, and if it ends up that when we die, we don't get buried next to each other, then so be it. I've been trying to keep this marriage together for years, and I'm tired of fighting for us."
> 
> Have her served at work. (consequence #1)
> Give her a 50/50 divorce at most and DO NOT TAKE ON ALL HER DEBT! (consequence #2)
> Do the 180. Keep the conversation limited to the divorce and kids only. Keep it short and pithy and no chit-chat. (consequence #3)
> Get a life without her: go out, overhaul your wardrobe, hang out with friends. (consequence #4)
> Stop having sex with her! (consequence #5)
> 
> You have to get back your self-respect.


This is the thread winner. OP this is your only hope and it has nothing to do with getting your wife back it has to do with getting your self respect back. This will give you power in your own life again. Part of your hesitance is because you feel powerless. That is a terrible way to live.


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## Bremik

sokillme said:


> Attraction can grow with love, you see her as a loving husband sees his wife, this will change when your bond goes away. Don't sell yourself short get in shape and you may find someone you are more attractive to. Also what good is having a sports car if the engine doesn't work. You get my meaning.
> 
> If she is that desperate have her take a poly. Bet she won't though.


Good points! It is just so very hard to make that break and also be sure I did the right thing. We have been talking some via text- while working- and I told her I have no issues with her as a mother and a friend. My issues are with her need to have attention from other guys and how she goes about keeping it from me. I told her I want answer to my questions and I want honesty. When I got home we haven't been able to talk yet but I can tell she is upset about it - looks like she has been beat up. Tho I did tell her on the phone that when I begin to feel guilty about upsetting her I think back to how she never seemed to feel guilty when she didn't call home when away from work, or when she has done specific things that she knows hurts me. Guess we will see where this goes.


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## Bremik

VeryHurt said:


> Everything was normal (whatever "normal" means up) until I sustained a horrible leg injury in an accident he he flipped out and could not cope.
> 
> (Looking back. he had a lot of issues that remained dormant until my fall i.e.: sociopath, narcissism)
> 
> His sec'y was more that willing to help him get through HIS trauma of MY injury and the rest is history .........
> 
> Bremik, I can almost assure you things will not get better and I KNOW it's incredible painful to face reality and move on.
> 
> Be strong my friend!


Thank you! Tonight should be interesting. I forgot to mention that in my talk with her today I did say all these issues are changing how I feel about her and I have never said something like that to her before.


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## Bremik

I have to go milk but I will be back. Really appreciate the good thoughts and suggestions.


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## sokillme

bremik said:


> Good points! It is just so very hard to make that break and also be sure I did the right thing. We have been talking some via text- while working- and I told her I have no issues with her as a mother and a friend. My issues are with her need to have attention from other guys and how she goes about keeping it from me. I told her I want answer to my questions and I want honesty. When I got home we haven't been able to talk yet but I can tell she is upset about it - looks like she has been beat up. Tho I did tell her on the phone that when I begin to feel guilty about upsetting her I think back to how she never seemed to feel guilty when she didn't call home when away from work, or when she has done specific things that she knows hurts me. Guess we will see where this goes.


Nothing good in life is easy. You situation is not going to change I think you already know that, are you sure your just not afraid? Change is hard. If I were you I would at least move out for a little while. Or if you can't do that move downstairs. She needs consequences and you need to detach so it will be easier for you to end it if you want to. At least you will be thinking more logically and less emotionally. 

I read on one of these boards something that made good sense to me, some cheaters have a form of arrested development. It's like they transfer the dynamic of their parents to their spouses, you have *understandably* become her parent, always checking on her, looking for ways to punish her when she does wrong. This is not a marriage. You have no idea what it is like to be married to a mature adult woman who is an asset to your life. Who you know has your back. To a team mate. It's pretty glorious. I'm sorry to say you aren't going to have that with this woman.


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## Satya

@bremik, would you mind sharing the specific reasons why this is so hard for you? 

Real, specific reasons. 

If you don't want to share with the board, that's understandable. But I'd ask you to do the exercise for yourself, and be honest. 

When you list the reasons, I want you to think of whether those reasons would have been valid before her recent behavior (who she was before /who you fell in love with, etc.) or whether the reasons are still valid considering the person she is to you NOW. 

The point of my question is, it's very easy to pine for the person we thought existed. We miss what we had. It's easier sometimes than accepting the reality of what IS.


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## TheTruthHurts

I stepped away and the thread has advanced. Curious how your talk went,

In answer to your questions - the thread of a polygraph often results in parking lot confessions. You usually get three questions. So you ask for a complete timeline of all partners and activities ahead of time. Then one question is "was anything left off the list". Also have you had any type of sex with anyone other than your H since you met him on xxxx date". The polygraph expert will help with the questions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## She'sStillGotIt

What's your actual PLAN, Bremik?

Because hope isn't a plan.


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## Bremik

I don't have a specific plan- problem I know. Unfortunately I am evaluating my wife to see which direction I am going. We officially aren't sleeping together starting 3 nights ago. I slept on the floor in the bedroom first 2 nights then last night she said I could have the bed so I don't sleep on the floor and she would sleep on the couch. There is no tension but also no talk since I texted her my feelings for her are changing partly due to the kids being around. I am actually getting a lot of good feedback on this post and am using that as we go. Approaching my 4th day though which is usually when the defenses get weak so here is hoping the not sleeping together helps.

What I am scared of is that I am wrong and she REALLY is being that stupid. I really feel I am the parent in these situations and in some others. I feel guilt if I am upsetting her over nothing- she has adamantly for 22 years swore she has done nothing wrong and that it was just other guys saying too much. She has NEVER wavered on this even with the current coworker. That is what throws me so much on all this. It is like I told her recently- I have all kinds of evidence that she was at the entrance and exit of a building she shouldn't be in but have nothing of her actually in the building but it is just illogical that she wasn't in there. I am scared of disrupting our kids, friends and life and be wrong. I want her to explain why things don't add up- I don't know if she can. She has always been somewhat free spirited- one of the things I love about her- and I accept it when she makes bad decisions on the kids or financial because it is part of who she is. She went too far when it crossed over to drawing other guys in. I have proof of guys telling her how pretty she is, or that she shouldn't listen to me and do whatever she wants, all kinds of sexual chatter- not specifically about her but way to much of a hot topic to be discussing, had one guy's dad from college days telling people she was leaving me for his son which I found out due to friends of ours calling to see if everything was all right. That same guy was dry humping my wife's leg right in front of me in a bar one time. Lying about staying out late on business trips - proven by 1-2 am cell phone calls. Wearing clothes that would make my tongue hang out on a business trip with the worst guy of the bunch being on that trip. There is more. Currently I have tracked her with the i-phone find on i-cloud and have had her tell me she was in her office when she was either not there at all or across the road in the other office building where the coworker is. She even went as far to tell me a guy I like said to say hi- I texted him and he wasn't even there! She expects me to believe when she goes in the other building that she doesn't talk to the coworker but I have past texts that have him making comments relating to where she is at, or that he noticed her working late or leaving early from a big coliseum event etc. - he is way too interested in where she is and what she is doing.

In the lines of me acting as a parent to her. It is like when she really wants to do something she just does it without asking/informing me or worse does it even knowing I am against it. She would rather ask for forgiveness than permission basically. She will cry her eyes out that she is trying to do better but in my eyes it is like - ok yes you are better but you are STILL not 100% professional with your coworker. He has been identified as a threat and you still go to lunch with him?!! I don't care that someone else was there since there was no reason to go since it had nothing to do with business- and they already had a going away party at the office!

I am sorry for the babbling. I ultimately am scared I am wrong but I am angry this won't stop. Even if she is innocent she is so playing with a big fire. Worst yet she knows it hurts me but can't seem to stop. Right now I use that for my motivation in that it never bothered her to have conversations or do whatever it is she does with these guys on trips while not always calling me OR the kids at night when she was away. I was at home with 3 young kids and running a dairy farm while she was more or less partying with some of these people. She had to be there for her job but she didn't have to skip calling us or lie to me about what she was doing.

I let college problems slide because I had no idea everything that went on, I trusted her and never questioned her and honestly think I was in shock because I never dreamed she would do that. I seriously considered that she could be an out of control alcoholic at one point it was so bad. I just wanted to get away when she graduated and things did go very well when we moved away but when she started working with those people again 12 years later it all started again and this time I started checking things and it looked very bad. Which is when I originally started posting on TAM and came to the conclusion college was worse than I ever knew. I don't know -I will just keep going in circles explaining things. I think what has happened is my parents divorced after 43 years of marriage with my dad cheating and this has permanently screwed up my mom and I don't want that to happen to me. I see other women who have been treated like dirt and still treated their spouse like a king and they to are now divorced so I see it as potential for someone to appreciate how I would treat them. I worry that the problem is me and I have some mid life crisis going on or some crazy the grass is greener on the other side thing happening and I am not thinking right or making excuses. I don't know! Counselors and others that have heard my story have yet to tell me I am the problem and there are some very bad things that have happened that I tolerated so I don't think I am crazy but I don't know. In some ways yes she is who I married originally but I never guessed this guy thing would be an issue- so in that sense no she isn't who I married.

Let's see what you all think


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## Satya

I think you think too much. 

My take is, she's crying her eyes out because you're ruining her fun, not because she is sorry. 

She doesn't sound like marriage material, plain and simple.


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## Openminded

I'm a woman and I can tell you that she knows exactly what she's doing. She hopes she can continue convincing you it's all nothing. And she has a good shot at that because you are helping her by your fear of considering the possibility of life without her. She knows that too. She's aware she has the power in your relationship. 

Be prepared to spend the rest of your life the way it is now. She sees no reason to change.


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## GusPolinski

Have you ever tried a VAR in her car?

Pen VAR in her purse?


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## Openminded

PS

I divorced after 45 years of marriage because my husband cheated so I'm the counter-point to your mom. I'm very happy and at peace with my life. Perhaps your mom will get there too. And you as well. I hope so.


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## Bremik

Not much going on at the moment. It definitely has cleared the mind not sleeping together and has made other urges a little easier to avoid. My wife hasn't said anything and I am wondering if she is waiting for me to make a move possibly. Tomorrow we both were going together for eye checkups so maybe that will spark a conversation.

I appreciate all the good input from here and hopefully the ball has started to roll for change. Hopefully I can quit thinking too much!:wink2:


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