# Tonight I learned that my marriage may be over.



## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

I f'd up and said some stupid things out of frustration and part desperation. Since before April of 2012 I have been asking my wife if the two of us could go to marriage counseling. As she works in the field somewhat she wanted to pick a counselor that was out of town. Fair enough. 

This is where is gets tricky. Months go by, no answer from her. I put a little pressure on and she gets mad/upset/defensive. No matter. We speak about it again after an argument. Still no headway. Then as a Christmas gift to one another we buy a TV. ( I don't really watch TV ) I asked why we could afford a TV and not MC. Her answer was " I wondering when you were going to ask that". So then I got stupid and lost my cool. It was bad on my part. I told her that I did not want to live the next 25 years of our lives like this. ( poor communication, no respect, lack of trust, dwindling sex life etc. ) 

She now tells me that since April she has been wondering if she still wants to be in this marriage. Why she never told me that before I'll never know. She is very mad at the moment and says the marriage is over and I should leave before she hates me. hmmmm. Still no counseling. 

She then suggests that I go to IC first and then we could go to MC because she feels that we would end up talking about my problems in MC ( I guess she doesn't feel responsible for anything in the relationship and that it's all my problem ) I'm wise to this kind of deal with her as she has pulled other stunts like this in regards to other areas of our life. You do this and then we'll do this together only to go back on her word. So I said no, we will do MC first and if the MC feels I could benefit from IC then we would take it from there. 

So tonight right before bed she tells me she's done and that I should be careful what I wish for as I'll get the divorce I want. 

The bizzare thing is that the night after the argument we had a good conversation. Then I wake up to this today ( ? ) 

I have again asked for MC but I really think she won't. So looks like 2013 is going to be way different than I planned or was expecting. I take full responsibility for this outcome. Sh*t. 

I have told her that I love her ( I do ) and that I won't give up on this marriage. She wants me to leave. Which I won't do for the moment, as it could screw up any kind of fair divorce settlement. 

On the other hand I have lived so long in misery that part of me wonders what a great relationship is. 

After 23 years ( 15 married) why doesn't she want to go to counseling? Why has she been holding off for so long? 


Best to you all for a Happy New Year. Thanks for reading.


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## Anubis (Jul 12, 2011)

Canadian Guy,
You've been on here long enough to wrack up 600+ posts and start a a number of threads. Just looking back over them, I think things are somewhat clear.... 

Your wife doesn't want to be with you.. Either she's grown apart or worse.. but she's taken her toys and gone home - that is the parts of her life she used to share with you because she wanted to... she don't want to anymore, and it ain't a phase or temporary things.

It seems like she has a mix of wanting you to do all the dirty work of being the one the one to close things down and end it so you you can take the blame and give her the victim status, and being in a comfort zone of having you around to do and pay for stuff while in a near roommate status. So she uses her knowledge of you and her power in the relationship to keep you off balance and taking as much blame for things as she can get you to.

and you? You don't want to acknowledge that it is over. There could be a lot of reasons for that - determining the specifics isn't that important - but it's keeping in you in a weak position in the relationship and on the defensive about pretty much everything. Don't worry - a lot of us were that way when our marriages were unraveling. It just that in retrospect, we wish we grew a pair and laid down the ultimatums and not let ourselves get walked all over a whole lot earlier than we did.

You can't "make" her decide that she wants the same kind of relationship that you want. or think anything else that she doesn't want to. And you can't make her respect you again either. she's got to choose that on her own. And I'm not placing high odds on her having a sudden change of heart, even with the 180.

If I had to put money on it, she's either got something/someone else going on ... or she's been really thinking about it... and thinking about a life without you or after you. Women are much less likely than men to say that "they want out" without having a plan or idea of what comes next. The romance novels/porn she's reading? How come you're not seeing any of the upside of her new interest? No masturbation or interest in sex at all? Really? Then tell me what *is* she reading them for? The housekeeping tips?

She doesn't respect you, and she doesn't have any qualms about "managing" you and telling you what she thinks you need to hear to keep you in your place and let her be, and she doesn't feel you that she owes you the truth about what she thinks and feels, much less what she does if it suits her wants or goals.

all this really isn't news.. you've identified most of it already.

What you haven't done is decide to let go of the old status quo. You're hanging on to something that isn't there anymore and she's using that every day to keep you off balanced, confused and taking the blame for anything she wants.

anyway.. to answer your question.. she doesn't want counseling because she doesn't see you as her partner in her future. All the signs point to this. It's now about power plays, getting what she can and jockeying for the best position in the split

She teases and toys with you because it keeps you in the weak position. You've identified already some of things you should do to protect yourself, like not being the one to move out. I really think your heart needs to turn to stone, and see this for the brewing battle it will defiantly become.

I'm sorry to be so negative, but consider the 6 harsh truths link that you posted. She no longer cares about being whit you as she goes through life ... She only cares about what she can get from you.

You need to prepare for war.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

^ This. Totally This. No one will write anything more on point.

(still, very sorry about your marriage...not a fun way to ring in the New Year)


Well...I'll offer this: I know you can't see it now BUT... a year or two from today, you may well find that this was one of the best things that ever happened to you...that's just the way life works...you don't what's around the corner.

Learn from your mistakes...and pave a better future...

We all hold the cards to our own ultimate happiness or misery

Just be open to life


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

CanadianGuy said:


> She now tells me that since April she has been wondering if she still wants to be in this marriage. Why she never told me that before I'll never know.


They never do (tell you they've left, that is). Six months and 600+ posts and you don't know that?



CanadianGuy said:


> After 23 years ( 15 married) why doesn't she want to go to counseling? Why has she been holding off for so long?


Again, after all of the time on this forum? I recognize you. Remember you from many posts. I see you as a veteran. Yet this thread could be by a newbie. I don't get it. You will get nearly unanimous support for the decision that your marriage is over. She's done. 180 time and all that.

Why they "hold off for so long" and don't tell you is a mystery that women won't share. It sucks, but accept it. Get away from this woman. Sorry to say.

Am I missing something?


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

She set the scenario up to make this conversation come to a head. She even admitted it when she said she was waiting for you to ask about the TV. Her emotion right now is probably relief and a little annoyed. Relieved it's on the table and annoyed you are still putting up a fight. Time for 180 for your future and dignity. Eff her and when you split assets, keep the TV.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

CanadianGuy said:


> After 23 years ( 15 married) why doesn't she want to go to counseling? Why has she been holding off for so long?


Because she doesn't actually want to recover the marriage. You are far better with that degree of honesty, as opposed to your wife familiar with therapy, agreeing to go, only to pay lip service to the process.

You are now at the point where the 'Man Up' lessons actually count the most.

Because the true goal of that process is to take care of yourself ... not your partner.

I understand the anger, despair, feeling hopeless, abandoned and confused. Believe me.

You cannot make those circumstances and feelings your focus. You can 'feel' them ... but you have to act beyond them.

You cannot proceed in trying to make decisions for 'you' as a couple. You need to start framing your choices and decisions for 'you' as an individual.

You need to realize this, because your wife has already made that transition.

Stop engaging her. Entirely. Stop discussing where you think or want the marriage to go.
Focus on where you need your life to go. The decisions you need to make. What you need to do to recover your sense of self. And you don't discuss any of it with her.

She is likely going to test you. If you back away, she will try to engage you ... only to shoot you down and prove to herself that you still 'hope'.

Stop hoping. Start acting. For yourself. Protect your interests.


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## ManUp (Nov 25, 2012)

CG, you're getting solid advice here. I have nothing to add except please take care of yourself and make sure you are your number one priority at this point. Yeah, it hurts down to the soul. Don't allow that hurt to turn in vulnerability that she can take advantage of.


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## heavensangel (Feb 12, 2012)

You are worth so much more than what she's giving you.......


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

For whatever reason your wife has check out of the marriage. You have been room mates for a long time and not really a couple.

Face reality. If you keep asking why she does this and why won't she do that, you are really asking why she does not feel as you do. The reason is that she is not you - two different people who care about different thing.

Move on. Treat her with indifference. Do not engage in dicussions about the marriage, you will get nowhere.

Let her go.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

CG, you've said a number of times that your wife claims to have no interest in sex and has no sex fantasies.

Have you ever monitored her commo to see if she has something going on the side?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Personally if I was you I would have just hardened up and went like "yeah? Is that what you want? FINE, have at ya!"
Which I did... I fked up as well with my wife, it was me who started the fight. Turns out though that it was due; it had to happen. Seperation has given us both insights to what went wrong, and it's a good thing. Even though my wife and I are still on a tightrope when it comes to our future, at least now we have one - for better or worse.

Anubis pretty much hit it on the nail though, especially his last line:


> You need to prepare for war.


This is sad bro, I just hope you'll do the right thing for your family and especially for yourself.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Thank you all for the responses and support. They all make a great deal of sense to me. 

I am pretty sure there is no one else in the picture as I have been keeping pretty close tabs on her phone etc. She could have a phone I don't know about though. 

I think that my actions over the last 5 months have destabilized the marriage to the point where we are at now. It will either be rebuilt through MC or it will end. The ball is clearly in her court to initiate contact with the MC. 

I continue to focus on becoming a better man.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

In my opinion, when you get to this stage, the marriage is finished. Even by acting differently or "manning up", you won't get what you want. You'll just be by yourself in your family. Don't remember if you have any kids. If you have, leaving will be difficult, staying maybe even worse. Tough one.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

You could be married to my wife!

-Would not go to marriage counseling (stopped going to the first MC when the MC started pointing out her issues).

-Insisted that I go to individual counseling... twice.

-Promised to see a therapist if I would go to one. I did, she didn't.

-Promised to see a doctor regarding her lack of libido. Told me she made the appointment, never did.

I had been asking for marriage counseling again for six months, she wouldn't go. She finally asked for a divorce. We agreed. But when she realized I had actually gotten the divorce paperwork and was looking for a place to live, she agreed to go to counseling.

Look... if she wants out, she wants out. You've tried to make it work and it hasn't. Start working on the divorce. Ask her if she wants a mediated divorce or you both get separate lawyers. Tell her to start a list of the assets you both own so they can be split.

Let her know that you are moving on without her. If she realizes this isn't what she wants, she'll agree to counseling.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Chris Taylor said:


> You could be married to my wife!
> 
> -Would not go to marriage counseling (stopped going to the first MC when the MC started pointing out her issues).
> 
> ...


Thanks Chris. Sounds like our situations are very similar. We are at this exact point at the moment.


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## sharkeey (Apr 27, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> I think that my actions over the last 5 months have destabilized the marriage to the point where we are at now.


You're self accountable and recognize your failures, that's a good thing it will help you going forward (with someone else).



CanadianGuy said:


> It will either be rebuilt through MC or it will end. The ball is clearly in her court to initiate contact with the MC.


By your own logic, since the ball is clearly in her court and she clearly doesn't want to go to MC the marriage will clearly end.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

So, I'm sorta looking at the tree here and not the forest, but maybe you should just set up a MC session and invite her along. 

Seems like many MC counselors also do IC, so if the wife never chooses to participate (which seems likely), you get an IC counselor - which I don't see how you could consider a bad thing. 

I also agree with the general sentiment that she's checked out, but this IS something you've been pursuing for a long time now, so JUST DO IT, like Nike says. Not for the marriage, but for you.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Trenton said:


> You need to start to talk about divorce and stop talking about marriage counseling or reconciliation of any kind. I went back and re-read some of your posts and I know you love this woman who you've been with for so long (I think I read 23 yrs/15 married) but you...ABSOLUTELY...deserve better!!!
> 
> Best case scenario, seeing that you're willing to leave will work as a catalyst to get back in the relationship. Worse case scenario is you will have to begin again. But think of what that means exactly:
> 
> ...


Thanks Trenton. 

I have not been a perfect man. Far from it. My first post was about me becoming an angry person. It would seem that I was harbouring a great deal of resentment and frustration with my marital situation and this was manifesting in anger. I was prone to outbursts. Her issue with my anger is something she spends a great deal of time talking about. I was never like this until a few years ago. To be clear I am not at all physically abusive and would never hit. 

So tonight yet another conversation that ends in her shutting down. I did not get angry at all but remained calm. It really seems that we take what each other says completely the wrong way. Hope that makes sense. ( ? )
At this point she hates me. I pretty sure of that and is still sitting on the fence about continuing or not. 

Next week (she returns to work where she has access to the name of the MC ) I'm either calling the MC or a real estate appraiser. 

I am secure in the knowledge that whatever happens will be for the best.


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## WEBELONG2GETHER (Jan 22, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> Thanks Trenton.
> 
> I have not been a perfect man. Far from it. My first post was about me becoming an angry person. It would seem that I was harbouring a great deal of resentment and frustration with my marital situation and this was manifesting in anger. I was prone to outbursts. Her issue with my anger is something she spends a great deal of time talking about. I was never like this until a few years ago. To be clear I am not at all physically abusive and would never hit.
> 
> ...


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Thanks Trenton.

I would say we are both taking each other the wrong way because of the comments we make to one another. eg: " Thats not what I mean" or " You're not listening to what I'm saying etc" - 

When we were talking the other night I could not believe how she was taking/interpreting what I was saying. Complete communication breakdown. And I know I was not understanding her at all either. Due to her shutting down and comments like the above.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

WEBELONG2GETHER said:


> CanadianGuy said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Trenton.
> ...


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> I am really glad it has gotten to this point as I am not prepared to carry on with this marriage if there are no changes in how we both communicate. As I told her I felt that we are both responsible for this and it's up to us as a couple to work on it. If she disagrees then the marriage is over. Plain and simple.


Correct, I applaud you actually. You've handled this very well. This is the arrangement I have with my wife at the moment as well - was very shaky at first but to be honest it's the best thing that has happened to us for 4 years. It gives both space to really rethink each other's lives, our marriage, what was right, what was wrong, what we need to do to fix it, and most importantly, if we even really want to continue it in the end.

Wish you luck!


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Correct, I applaud you actually. You've handled this very well. This is the arrangement I have with my wife at the moment as well - was very shaky at first but to be honest it's the best thing that has happened to us for 4 years. It gives both space to really rethink each other's lives, our marriage, what was right, what was wrong, what we need to do to fix it, and most importantly, if we even really want to continue it in the end.
> 
> Wish you luck!


Thanks RandomDude for the support and encouragement. I have read a great deal of your posts and even though I consider myself HD you were living what I consider to be sexual overkill. 

My wife is very very LD. It really has very little to do with me. I could be super man and she still would have very little long term sexual drive for me. In fact after several conversations with her I know she could easily go a year without sex and be okay with it. It's just not on her radar really. As Runswithdog put it "it's not what she is but rather who she is". 

After a conversation tonight it would seem that a lot of our problems stem from our sexual incompatibility. It is a downward spiral. Less has led to less and less. Not only her meeting my needs but me meeting hers. After years of her rejection and her feelings of "sexual pressure" I am not surprised I am the man and she is the women we have become. I am in recovery though from being on TAM and reading etc. 

I am grateful for all the insights I have gained here. It has helped me sort through all sorts of issues personally and in my marriage. 

Good luck to you too RandomDude.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Cheers mate, I do hope the best for you two. Stay strong.


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