# I still sometimes feel angry, betrayed and bereft. What is it about emotional affairs that hurts so much? I need a translator!



## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

Hi guys

In a recent post it came up how men and women need translators.

*Background*

I have spent quite a lot of time on TAM over the past six months and learned loads. Particularly I feel like I understand men much more deeply than I ever did before. And I can translate for women and myself in a way I couldn't before around why sex is so important for men - hence the total betrayal of either a physical affair or sexless/sex lite marriage. But I still can't translate my own feelings to my husband. And I wondered if some of you TAMers could help me understand myself better and how I could communicate my feelings better.

I have read lots of posts from men explaining to wayward female spouses how deeply betrayed they felt and what they needed to heal. However, I have hardly read any posts to wayward male spouses about how women feel and what they need to heal particularly if it was *"only" *emotional.

My husband and I are in a really good place now but last year we had a pretty major marriage crisis. I was hugely to blame for a ton of issues in our marriage that I take responsibility for in entirety. I am very lucky. The crisis is over but we still keep rehashing one conversation in particular around what I consider to be my husband's emotional affair and he considers to be a process of recovering himself / finding himself and bringing that self back to the marrige.

He is sad that it was so hard for me but he feels like what he have now is so incredible (which it is) that it was worth it. He doesn't really think he did anything wrong.

He thinks I'm stuck on this because I want him to feel bad and guilty. I don't. *But *I do want him to really get how I felt. I feel like he doesn't really understand how excruciating it was for me and still is sometimes.

Sometimes I read a male comment here and I think yes! That man has really heard his woman and really gets her perspective.

I just don't feel heard. He keeps asking me what I want and he is trying to understand.

*Context*

20 years ago his childhood best friend had feelings for him. She told him. He was with me. He turned her down and said he had no feelings for her. He lied. He did have feelings for her. She was hurt and angry and from his perspective didn't really want to be friends anymore. Twenty years later he got back in touch. Told her about the lie. Told me '_I love you but I'm not in love with you anymore'_. Told me deep hurts and resentments he'd carried for years towards me. Told me he wanted to leave. And triggered a major marriage crisis.

The main thing I am still struggling to get over is the emails he sent her and the things he said to her.

*Examples*

_*HIM *I spent a lot of my 20s and 30s trying to be who other people wanted me to be - at work, *with @flywithme*, with friends.

*HER *Why you never kissed me I will never understand
*HIM So will I* but made our choices._

Lyrics from songs he sent her: _I should have tried harder. Maybe if I could turn back time *we could have made it* if I'd tried. You tease me telling me it's over - *wait and see.*_

*HER*: _I know we would have been good together_
*HIM *T_his week, when you said: "I know we would have been good together." Those words unraveled me. For the first time I let myself imagine what we would have been like together.* I've cried every single day and night *since you said that. You weren't supposed to say that. I wasn't supposed to think about you...* like that*. I'm *grieving *the loss of 20 incredible years with you. It's *horrific*. 

*HIM *Over the last 20 years, the phrase in my head was always that I betrayed *the best person I'd ever known *
.
*HIM *Losing you has been the *biggest *regret of my life. I've spent years regretting - I remember it like yesterday.

*HIM *How could a good man not want to spend *every single day of the rest of his life with you? What a fool I was.*

*HIM *Four weeks before I came to see you I got together with @flywithme, *accidentally*. It just kind of happened. 

*HIM *To me back then, we just weren't on the same playing field. You'd been better than the best friend I could have ever asked for. How could I ask you for *even more*? 

*HIM *This is where you call me and I *get to see your face*

*HIM *I would really like to spend time with you. Seeing you made me really happy - I missed you so much._

Over the next six months they stayed in contact. When he asked her what was going on between them she replied_ "*we don't have to label this*_." He told me all he wanted was his friend back yet he talked about her often telling me she couldn't understand why he didn't kiss her that night or that she was blowing hot and cold with him. That maybe we should move to where she lives and put our kids into the school she teaches at.

He feels like it was a younger part of him that had got stuck and still had feelings for her that needed to be resolved. It wasn't really him. He had connected her to adventure, travel, freedom and he went through a process of untangling that connection and resolving his feelings. He fell back in love with me. He thinks he did really well. I do too.

And yet.... I feel like I could show those words to any woman on the planet and she would instantly understand the depths of what I went through. He had always told me I was the best friend he'd ever had, that I was the best person he'd ever known, that I was perfect and exactly what he wanted. That there was no one else for him. I felt blindsided and like the world was pulled out from under my feet. I felt utterly bereft, torn apart, numb, helpless and alone. It was like living in a nightmare you never dreamed could be your life.

*Translation help?*

Sex is vital for men it is how they feel most truly loved - for his wife to give that to another man is the ultimate betrayal.

What is it for me? For women? There was no sex. Now everything is OK. What did he give to her in those emails that hurts so much... still?

If you're a woman what would hurt most about those words for you?

If you're a man do you read this and think my feelings of pain and betrayal and anger are valid? If so how would you communicate that to another man?

Please be honest... *and *kind.

(We are both in counselling and working on our own stuff - this is just an area where we have got stuck.)


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

So sorry sister. His emails are just awful. His psycho-babble “untangling himself” explanation is equally awful. I’d say your feelings of betrayal are very valid… especially since this wasn’t just a “heat of the moment” betrayal and he continued a somewhat private relationship with her for months.

I think I’d just remind hubby that he considered her the “best person he has ever known”, and that he had to “grieve” his time lost from her because he was stuck in an “accident” with you. I’d just say “you wrote it. Either it’s true or you were just wanting to woo her into bed- which is it?”.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

I think regardless of man or woman, seeing that kind of conversation between your spouse and someone else is heart breaking. It puts a dagger right in the heart of the love you have for him. I am a little surprised that he doesn't understand the depth of the hurt you feel. My only guess is he may think he never completely disrespected you. He did, but since since he never specifically said anything bad about you, he may not think so. Based on what you posted here he never said anything derogatory about you. However, he basically said you were a mistake, an accident.

It is great that both of you feel your marriage is in a good place now. I think it is important to keep emphasizing that every time you talk about your marriage. At the same time you need to convey to him that these are your feelings. It doesn't even matter if they are valid or not, even though I think they are in your case. They are your feelings and he needs to figure out how to understand that. He needs to be empathetic.

I would consider sharing all those thing you have in bold and how they make you feel, if you haven't already. Have you shared that with him? What did he say?


Here are couple links to a site I find very useful in all things marriage related. These may help for you and him to read.









8 ways to respond to your spouse sharing how they're feeling (only one is good) - Uncovering Intimacy


Not sure how to respond to your spouse when they're sharing about their difficult day? Here are 8 ways (only one is good).




www.uncoveringintimacy.com












I'm sorry isn't good enough - Uncovering Intimacy


Do you say "I'm sorry" regularly? Do you really think that's enough? Well, it's not. Here's why, and a formula for a proper apology.




www.uncoveringintimacy.com


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> Either it’s true or you were just wanting to woo her into bed- which is it?”.


Thankyou I appreciate the support. I don't think that would help. He wasn't trying to woo her into bed. It was an emotional connection. He wanted to "fill in the gaps" and regain her lost friendship.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I think regardless of man or woman, seeing that kind of conversation between your spouse and someone else is heart breaking. It puts a dagger right in the heart of the love you have for him. I am a little surprised that he doesn't understand the depth of the hurt you feel. My only guess is he may think he never completely disrespected you. He did, but since since he never specifically said anything bad about you, he may not think so. Based on what you posted here he never said anything derogatory about you. However, he basically said you were a mistake, an accident.
> 
> It is great that both of you feel your marriage is in a good place now. I think it is important to keep emphasizing that every time you talk about your marriage. At the same time you need to convey to him that these are your feelings. It doesn't even matter if they are valid or not, even though I think they are in your case. They are your feelings and he needs to figure out how to understand that. He needs to be empathetic.
> 
> ...


Thankyou Big Daddy your message felt surprisingly healing. Everything you wrote really helped. We haven't gone through the emails comment by comment quite like that. I have brought up most of it at various points in conversation. He says he can really see how hard it was for me and he thinks I did incredibly well and other positive comments. He just doesnt think he did anything that wrong especially considering the positive outcome. I do feel disrespected thankyou for putting words to that. 

I will read the links.

Thankyou


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Fly With Me said:


> Thankyou I appreciate the support. I don't think that would help. He wasn't trying to woo her into bed. It was an emotional connection. He wanted to "fill in the gaps" and regain her lost friendship.


More psycho-babble, no offense. Men I know are usually goal oriented… his lines to her sound a bit like he was being the ultimate “player”. And now he’s playing you with more lines. My two cents. He’s telling everyone just what they need to hear. Men can be good at that… devious men can be great at that. Sorry!


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

My best friend in high school and college was a man. I wanted more. We remained platonic friends. Stood up in one anothers weddings. Nothing happened. We were friends for 15 years after marriage, and then lost contact. His wife tolerated me. We were friendly, but she wasn't that keen on me.

Honestly? If I was in a bad place in my marriage and if I reconnected with my friend and if he wanted to hook up with me..... Well, it would be a bad thing for my marriage. It's never happened, I never pursued it, and I won't pursue it.

I think what your husband did is very , very dangerous to your marriage. I honestly think he's in love with his friend. The fact he's in contact with her/ or was , in THIS way, is not good at all.

As I said, my friend and I never discussed what could have been, what would have been, etc. 

If I found out my husband spoke to another woman like that, I'd be out. I wouldn't be able to unhear it or move on. That's just me.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

I'm glad you feel the crisis is over, but i wouldn't dismiss what he shared with her.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Just read he told a woman he was with you "accidentally" ? As in not on purpose? Not by his choice? Oh hell no.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Fly With Me said:


> Thankyou I appreciate the support. I don't think that would help. He wasn't trying to woo her into bed. It was an emotional connection. He wanted to "fill in the gaps" and regain her lost friendship.


It does sound to me like he wanted more than to just re-establish the friendship. The statements of his that you posted don't sound like a person talking to their lost BFF. It has a much more romantic tone to it. I assume there was a significant physical distance between them at this time, correct? Not trying to make you feel worse, but if they were in close proximity that conversation would have easily lead to a physical affair. I don't know that he fully appreciates that, or maybe he doesn't want to admit it to himself or to you. Has he broken all contact with her now?

It is concerning that he doesn't think he did anything wrong. I think that is why he doesn't understand how you are feeling. What he did was absolutely wrong for a married man. Since he doesn't think he did anything wrong I have to assume he doesn't really have any regret or remorse, does he say he does?

I could put a positive spin on things. I will preface it by saying this is not excusing anything he did. Your marriage had to be in a crisis before he reached out to her. You may not have fully recognized it, but it was or he would not have done what he did. Luckily he gave you the "ILYBINILWY" before it went physical and crossed the point of no return. This certainly brought everything to a head and now it seems your marriage may be stronger than it was before this happened. However, you will always have to live with your feelings. You can't unsee those statements and un-feel the hurt it caused. That is something he needs to understand about how you are feeling. Not only do you have these feelings, but you will never be able to completely forget them. They can diminish to where they aren't on your mind all the time, but they will come back up from time to time forever. At best they just have a lesser impact on how you feel. Trust me, I've dealt with vaguely similar feelings for 30+ years. I'm EXTREMELY happy and have been for a very long time, but those thoughts and feelings still come and go from time to time.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

If a man wants to reel in a lady, what else could/would he say?

He thought long and hard , on those answers that he gave her in the emails.

Whether his words were heartfelt or just fluff and puffery, is up for debate.
I would think the latter.

Why?

He has not seen this former lady friend in 20 years!
He has no idea if she is still the same person, with the same feelings, hence his (hopeful, and flowery) fishing alluring.

Or, phishing, since it is via pixels on the internet!

No, I do not think he was in a real emotional affair (EA), no, but he _wanted_ to be in one.
Oh yes.

He was practicing his monkey-branching skills on this woman.
He wanted to leave you and fall into her arms and her (hopefully) warm charms. <---- I kept this sentence clean, because @EleGirl is watching me!




_Lilith-_


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> More psycho-babble, no offense. Men I know are usually goal oriented… his lines to her sound a bit like he was being the ultimate “player”. And now he’s playing you with more lines. My two cents. He’s telling everyone just what they need to hear. Men can be good at that… devious men can be great at that. Sorry!


Thanks for sharing your perspective. I appreciate it.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

snowbum said:


> Just read he told a woman he was with you "accidentally" ? As in not on purpose? Not by his choice? Oh hell no.


Thanks Snowbum there's definitely a part of me that has that reaction too. Thanks for sharing about your own best friend. It's interesting to hear how someone else would have responded to the same situation.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> It does sound to me like he wanted more than to just re-establish the friendship. The statements of his that you posted don't sound like a person talking to their lost BFF. It has a much more romantic tone to it. I assume there was a significant physical distance between them at this time, correct? Not trying to make you feel worse, but if they were in close proximity that conversation would have easily lead to a physical affair. I don't know that he fully appreciates that, or maybe he doesn't want to admit it to himself or to you. Has he broken all contact with her now?
> 
> It is concerning that he doesn't think he did anything wrong. I think that is why he doesn't understand how you are feeling. What he did was absolutely wrong for a married man. Since he doesn't think he did anything wrong I have to assume he doesn't really have any regret or remorse, does he say he does?
> 
> I could put a positive spin on things. I will preface it by saying this is not excusing anything he did. Your marriage had to be in a crisis before he reached out to her. You may not have fully recognized it, but it was or he would not have done what he did. Luckily he gave you the "ILYBINILWY" before it went physical and crossed the point of no return. This certainly brought everything to a head and now it seems your marriage may be stronger than it was before this happened. However, you will always have to live with your feelings. You can't unsee those statements and un-feel the hurt it caused. That is something he needs to understand about how you are feeling. Not only do you have these feelings, but you will never be able to completely forget them. They can diminish to where they aren't on your mind all the time, but they will come back up from time to time forever. At best they just have a lesser impact on how you feel. Trust me, I've dealt with vaguely similar feelings for 30+ years. I'm EXTREMELY happy and have been for a very long time, but those thoughts and feelings still come and go from time to time.


I really appreciate your time and thoughtful persective. It's helping.

Yes different countries. No they are still in contact. He tells me when she messages and what he messages back.

It's HER _Happy New Year_ HIM- _yes and to you too_ type of messages. I know most here will say tha t it'sa bad idea. At the moment it is very very platonic. I am curious if she will want to maintain the friendship sans the undercurrent of romance. We are taking it a step at a time.

He says he can feel sorry for the pain it caused me and that if he could do it again he would try to do it differently. But he can't see a way he could have done it differently.And it's done now and can't be changed. And he is so happy with the outcome he finds it hard to feel remorse about it all.

I definitely feel a strong desire for a very different reaction/response from him. And it def leaves me feeling d not fully understood or empathised with.

Yes it was in crisis and I behaved very badly for years before all this. Not excusing any of my behaviour at all. I am lucky he stayed. (He's lucky I stayed too ;-p)

"you can't unsee those statements and unfeel the hurt" - YES thankyou exactly. I have to live with this forever now. It will never completely go away.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

If he doesn't feel he did wrong, and would try to do it differently but isn't sure he would... he's not sorry. He doesn' t care how you feel and really feels this is nothing.

I would not be happy with this . You aren't wrong.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Fly With Me said:


> Hi guys
> 
> In a recent post it came up how men and women need translators.
> 
> ...


I agree that anyone would be extremely hurt to read the messages. I do have a theory here which may help your thinking a little, and that theory is that in those messages your husband was fantasizing. You pointed out you marriage wasn't in a great place accepting some of that blame.

Here's the thing, back those 20+ years ago life was simpler, the future was exciting and anything was possible. This friend was a part of the carefree excitement and fun part of life (youth). It was that sense of freedom and excitement for the future, with no responsibilities he was pining for, not her, she is just the physical manifestation of that feeling. If he was sooooo into her back then he would have chosen her then. He sent all that when things were not fun and the excitement was not there and he missed feeling like that. Life has a way of destroying that idealistic, anything is possible, free spirit of youth and when you look around and realize thats not reality for you, you can become infatuated with the what ifs and you try to convince yourself it's still possible. I think you husband has probably realized the good in his life is centered on you and the family and the fantasy he had cooked up in his mind was a twisted and not real idea, not reality. Long story short, textbook midlife crisis. 

Good news, it sounds like he snapped out of it and came back to earth. 

One thing you can try is to write a short story detailing a reversed roles scenario where you run into a guy from your youth (fictional) and display a scenario where you see a possibility of the life of your dreams with this special guy. This is dangerous though as it might cause a setback in the recent progress so it depends on if getting him really understand how this made you feel is worth messing with the current trajectory.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Here's the thing- he said the biggest mistake he made was not being with her and you're an accident he doesn't know how it happened. He said he's felt this way for years and that he feels he wasted years.

Maybe people feel that. Maybe they occassionally think it . They sure as hell shouldn't write it and then say they don't know how they'd do it differently. 

I love my husband. i'm not perfect and have had my share of bonehead moments. I've never told another man that they were the one that got away and I wonder daily what I lost.

You say you screwed up. Did you cheat? Is this a revenge EA? 
Wouldn't make it right,but unless you cheated, or prostituted yourself, I see nothing worthy of how he's feeling.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

SunCMars said:


> If a man wants to reel in a lady, what else could/would he say?
> 
> He thought long and hard , on those answers that he gave her in the emails.
> 
> ...


I was hoping you might reply SunCMars you always seem to see a bit beneath the surface. And I love the way you write.

I am interested in the idea that it wasn't an EA but he _wanted _to be in one. He did say when we were reconnecting _"I'm having the affair I needed but with my wife."_

Can I ask a personal question (no need to answer if you don't want to) - why do you sometimes reply as Lilith and other times King Brian?

Anyway, thank you for the interesting reply. I think the words were heartfelt but they were from an immature part of him. The more mature him thinks he was idealising her and had lost so many of his good friends he was just desperate to get her back.

If I thought they were just fluff and puffery I think I'd lose respect for him. The fact that they were genuine is harder to handle but at least I can respect his honesty. I wish he had said it all to me rather than her though!!! (As in told me how he was feeling towards her rather than told her).


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

snowbum said:


> If he doesn't feel he did wrong, and would try to do it differently but isn't sure he would... he's not sorry. He doesn' t care how you feel and really feels this is nothing.
> 
> I would not be happy with this . You aren't wrong.


He does care about how I feel. He just doesn't "get" it. I am trying really hard not to make it about right or wrong. That's what I would have done in the past. I'm not trying to make him wrong. I just want him to really feel what I felt.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I agree that anyone would be extremely hurt to read the messages.
> 
> I do have a theory here which may help your thinking a little.... Long story short, textbook midlife crisis.
> 
> One thing you can try is to write a short story detailing a reversed roles scenario where you run into a guy from your youth (fictional) and display a scenario where you see a possibility of the life of your dreams with this special guy. This is dangerous though as it might cause a setback in the recent progress so it depends on if getting him really understand how this made you feel is worth messing with the current trajectory.


Thank you happy husband that helps.

Yes exactly I think you are spot on about this. Thank you for articulating it so clearlyand insightfully.

I have tried to reverse it for him - orally though I didn't write it down.. He just says if I would have been happier with someone else he would have wanted me to go be with them. It doesn't seem to help him understand. I am really stuck with how to explain it to him so any other ideas would be really welcome!

Thanks so much for this response


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Fly With Me said:


> I was hoping you might reply SunCMars you always seem to see a bit beneath the surface. And I love the way you write.
> 
> I am interested in the idea that it wasn't an EA but he _wanted _to be in one. He did say when we were reconnecting _"I'm having the affair I needed but with my wife."_
> 
> ...


Thread jack...

_THRD_ has left the TAM Avatar that he created.

Those who post here are _real people_ and they live in (the latest designated head).
They are _HeadMates_, thank you.

_Lilith _and _King Brian_ are the only two personages left to post.
The rest are busy with other entanglements, they are presently not on Earth.

That may change in the future. 

There is a lot going on in the background/backdrop of _SunCMars.


[The Helmsman]- _number three, under THE GOD.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

snowbum said:


> Here's the thing- he said the biggest mistake he made was not being with her and you're an accident he doesn't know how it happened. He said he's felt this way for years and that he feels he wasted years.
> 
> Maybe people feel that. Maybe they occassionally think it . They sure as hell shouldn't write it and then say they don't know how they'd do it differently.
> 
> ...


No I didn't cheat. I massively took him for granted though and we had various problems with our sex life that I didn't try hard enough to resolve because I didn't understand how significant it was. He felt very unloved by me for years - like I was his friend but not his lover. There is another thread where I go more into how very much I got wrong in the relationship and let him down over years.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

I think @SunCMars and @happyhusband0005 are right. He was fantasizing about the past and writing a fictious narrative in his head about what his life would have been like with her, or to reestablish with her. There was no basis of reality. 

I do think it is wrong that he is still in contact with her, even if plutonic. If all the other conversations he started with her didn't have that romantic tone to them I might think a little differently, but that isn't the case. I assume you have full access to his conversations with her. That is the LEAST that should be going on. Does his continued contact with her cause you emotional pain? If so, does he know that it continues to effect you?

I hate to say this, but I don't sense that you will ever get him to feel bad about what he did. You may get him to better understand your feelings, but that is about it. I also don't think trying a role reversal will help. He doesn't think he did anything wrong. At least he isn't apply a double standard, which is what it would be if he had a problem with a role reversal. 

If you think you can be happy in your marriage knowing that he will never feel bad about what he's done, then stay the course. You can try to get him to empathize how you feel and how it effects you. You may make some headway there, but you need to come to terms with the fact that there is no real closure for this situation. Even if you left him you would still not be able to forget what has happened. 

Do you have any insight into his IC? Do you know if they are talking at all about how his actions have had an impact on you?

BTW, I am doing my best to not project my personal feeling into this discussion, lol. I could never be as patient as you are being and normally I would suggest it isn't worth the effort to fix. However, you and your husband are already on the way to reconciliation, and you, the injured party, seem to be generally happy. I want nothing more that others to be happy in their marriage, as I am.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

I don’t think anyone can understand the pain the betrayed spouse feels unless they experience it themselves. What your wanting isn’t possible unless you turn the tables. I don’t suggest you do this.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Fly With Me said:


> No I didn't cheat. I massively took him for granted though and we had various problems with our sex life that I didn't try hard enough to resolve because I didn't understand how significant it was. He felt very unloved by me for years - like I was his friend but not his lover. There is another thread where I go more into how very much I got wrong in the relationship and let him down over years.


This doesn't justify what he did, but it does provide some background to his mindset.

I do think he needs to acknowledge that what he did was very bad for the marriage, and most importantly, understand that such behavior is damaging and it can't happen again. (He should be no contact with this woman).

It sounds like you are in a boat of also acknowledging how your past behavior was damaging to the marriage in a different way. You seem to be dealing with it in a healthy way and he doesn't. It really seems like if he was so over the situation, he was regretting the 20 year relationship and trying to re-kindle an old flame with another, he should have left you first. Did he ever threaten this prior to those emails?

That said, I'm glad you are moving on and feeling better about your relationship, but maybe you just need to get him to acknowledge the damage and then both of you move on with the understanding it can't happen again.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Fly With Me said:


> My husband and I are in a really good place now but last year we had a pretty major marriage crisis. *I was hugely to blame for a ton of issues in our marriage that I take responsibility for in entirety.* I am very lucky. The crisis is over but we still keep rehashing one conversation in particular around what I consider to be my husband's emotional affair and he considers to be a process of recovering himself / finding himself and bringing that self back to the marrige.
> 
> He is sad that it was so hard for me but he feels like what he have now is so incredible (which it is) that it was worth it. He doesn't really think he did anything wrong.


Could you give a little more detail about those issues that you say you were "hugely to blame for"...were they emotionally painful issues for him?

Has he SAID to you that he doesn't think he did anything wrong? Or are you interpreting that from him based on that fact that he has said the painful path you both walked was worth it to get to where you are now?

Was it his emotional connection with this woman that caused you to examine your self-described issues in your marriage?

I'm NOT blaming you or absolving him with my questions - I am trying to get a clearer picture of what unfolded between you to get to the point you are both at with this, and why you might have such differing perspectives about it.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

snowbum said:


> If I found out my husband spoke to another woman like that, I'd be out. I wouldn't be able to unhear it or move on. That's just me.


What is it about this that causes such a storng reaction in you (it does in me too and I'm trying to figure it out). Why does a man talking like that to another woman feel like such a deal breaker - when there was no sex and the issues in the marriage were resolved?


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

SunCMars said:


> Thread jack...
> 
> _THRD_ has left the TAM Avatar that he created.
> 
> ...


Thanks!


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I think @SunCMars and @happyhusband0005 are right. He was fantasizing about the past and writing a fictious narrative in his head about what his life would have been like with her, or to reestablish with her. There was no basis of reality.
> 
> I do think it is wrong that he is still in contact with her, even if plutonic. If all the other conversations he started with her didn't have that romantic tone to them I might think a little differently, but that isn't the case. I assume you have full access to his conversations with her. That is the LEAST that should be going on. Does his continued contact with her cause you emotional pain? If so, does he know that it continues to effect you?
> 
> ...


Yes I agree. They were causing me pain when he didn't tell me about them. Now he tells me I feel a lot safer. I shared with him that it was causing me real pain and he said he was happy to tell me. I don't have access to them and I haven't asked for it. One of the issues in our marriage was I used to have access to all his private email and messaging accounts. He never told me he had a problem with it but he did. So now I don't read his messages. It is hard. I f I asked he would show me I'm sure. I'm trying not to ask. I have qutite good intuition. I can "feel" that everything is ok at the moment. In the past I would know she hadmessaged and he hadnt told me about it and it would really get under my skin. Nowit's different..

I hadn't thought ot ask him if it had come up in his IC. I will ask.

Thankyou for not projecting I can really feel that and it makes me respect you even more than I did before. He is the injured party too just in other ways that are more culturally acceptable.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

Openminded said:


> I divorced my husband for doing something very similar to what your husband did. If he really doesn’t understand, he needs to figure it out quick. Where cheating is concerned, emotional connections generally mean more to women and physical connections generally meaning more to men and that’s what they are most likely to divorce over. In other words, for women sex can just be sex but love is another story. I stayed with my husband after he had a physical affair but not after he told another woman he loved her. That betrayal was too much.


Thankyou openminded. It's the emotional part that hurts so much. If it's not too painful for you can you say more about that. What was it about the "I love you" that was unforgiveabe for you?


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

re16 said:


> This doesn't justify what he did, but it does provide some background to his mindset.
> 
> I do think he needs to acknowledge that what he did was very bad for the marriage, and most importantly, understand that such behavior is damaging and it can't happen again. (He should be no contact with this woman).
> 
> ...


No - he told me he was thinking of leaving and all his resentment and hurt that had built up over years and showed me the emails across a three week period. It totally blindsided me. His resentment and hurt was very valid. He says it will never happen again because he doesn't have any other parts of him with unresolved feelings for anyone.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> Could you give a little more detail about those issues that you say you were "hugely to blame for"...were they emotionally painful issues for him?
> 
> Has he SAID to you that he doesn't think he did anything wrong? Or are you interpreting that from him based on that fact that he has said the painful path you both walked was worth it to get to where you are now?
> 
> ...



You can read the full story in the first thread I ever posted on TAM it's quite long and I go into lots of detail. I massively took him for granted, we had major issues with our sex life that I didn't do enough to resolve - all very emotionally painful for him. He really believed that I didn't love him 💔

He says he made mistakes and could have done things differently and he wishes he hadn't hurt me but doesn't see how he could have got to where he is now without allowing himself to talk to her like that. 

It was the fact that he told me how miserable and unloved he was to the point he wanted to leave that led to me changing. I didn't have any idea the depths of his pain AND then the emails on top of that of course. I would have changed a lot sooner if he had been that honest with me sooner. I love him very dearly. I hate that he was in that much pain for so long. It nearly broke me.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Fly With Me said:


> What is it about this that causes such a storng reaction in you (it does in me too and I'm trying to figure it out). Why does a man talking like that to another woman feel like such a deal breaker - when there was no sex and the issues in the marriage were resolved?


The reason I feel so strongly is that m
y husband is my person. My love. The one person I'm willing to move mountains for and put up with the ups and downs. And there have been downs. I've never run off to another guy, told him how much I wish I never met my husband, how I " settled" or "somehow married him and still can't understand it". 

That type of language says to me "you'll DO", I "guess" you're ok. Your husband said things you should be hearing, how you're the one he can' t stop thinking of, you're the one he's so glad he's found, and how blessed he is that you did choose him. He's telling her that he wishes he chose her. I could be wrong, but the language he used didn't seem like cheap come ons. They seemed genuine. The fact that he's not remorseful and thinks what he did was ok makes me think he really doesn' t care what he did. Makes me think he meant it, has no regrets, and is letting you try to fix things.

Lack of sex doesn' t deserve this. He seems like a heartless person from the situation you described. I also doubt he'd tell you if he's continuing to woo her. Just my hunch. Why would he share that if he thinks there's nothing wrong with it ?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Fly With Me said:


> What is it about this that causes such a storng reaction in you (it does in me too and I'm trying to figure it out). Why does a man talking like that to another woman feel like such a deal breaker - when there was no sex and the issues in the marriage were resolved?


Contrary to popular belief it isn't all about sex for men and all about emotions for women. What you are feeling about the emotional betrayal is pretty universal IMO. For me, a physical affair would illicit different feelings, but they both very painful. The physical side disgusts me to even think about it, but the emotional betrayal would hurt me to my soul. To see or hear my wife profess her love and longing for another person would break me. I think spouses have an emotional bond that is like no other and it is special, just between them. I do draw a lot of that emotional connection through physical affection, but I can't have one without the other. Knowing that the emotional connection is being shared or transferred to someone else would create a painful hole in my heart. Your feelings are valid, and I don't think they are unique to one gender.

Does the OW know what has happened? Is she aware that she almost played a part in the end of your marriage? Is she married too?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Fly With Me said:


> What is it about this that causes such a storng reaction in you (it does in me too and I'm trying to figure it out). Why does a man talking like that to another woman feel like such a deal breaker - when there was no sex and the issues in the marriage were resolved?


For me, it was the emotional investment in another woman. Sex for many men can easily be hit it and quit it but when emotions are involved it’s much different. That was a definite deal breaker for me.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

First of all, what he’s said in those emails is truly awful. I’m a man and that would hurt me deeply if I saw those emails.

secondly, it sounds like he is rugsweeping this affair and not owning it. Saying that it helped your marriage? What? He’s got a lot of heavy lifting to do.

lastly, your overall question sorta fits into the majority of men and women. I’m not saying this is you. I’m not saying this is your husband. I’m saying this fits for most men and women.

men give love/commitment for sex. Women give sex for love.

this (in general) is why the physical affair hurts a man so much. Not all men and obviously there are plenty of women that are equally hurt by a physical affair…. But you did mention that men see it as the ultimate betrayal. I personally would see it this way as well. In general, men have to work harder to get sex. They give themselves and their love to a woman to receive sex in return (their way of feeling loved and appreciated). When a WW gives it away for FREE to another man? Nope. That would be it. I’m out.

now, flip it in reverse. Women (in general) work hard to get the commitment and love from a man they are interested in. They give all of themselves to that man and show their appreciation with sex. The man loves them in return. All is well. When a man gives away his love and commitment for FREE to another woman? Especially after you worked hard to get that? It is the ultimate betrayal.

again, there are plenty of women and men who are equally hurt by a physical or emotional affair. I’m only speaking in general.

regardless, what your husband did to you is terrible and it sounds like he hasn’t owned a thing here. Saying that wasn’t him when he spoke to the OW? Really? Then who the hell was it? That’s crap. He needs to admit to you the full truth.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Fly With Me said:


> *It's HER Happy New Year HIM- yes and to you too type of messages. I know most here will say tha t it'sa bad idea. At the moment it is very very platonic. I am curious if she will want to maintain the friendship sans the undercurrent of romance. We are taking it a step at a time.*


Hi FlyWithMe,
I'm sorry, there's no way I can sugarcoat this...

The bolded above says to me he doesn't think he did anything wrong and doesn't care enough about your feelings to cut her out of his life.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Fly With Me said:


> No - he told me he was thinking of leaving and all his resentment and hurt that had built up over years and showed me the emails across a three week period. It totally blindsided me. His resentment and hurt was very valid. He says it will never happen again because he doesn't have any other parts of him with unresolved feelings for anyone.


I haven’t read your backstory, but it sounds like you put him into a dead bedroom.

if that is the case, what he did is still not inexcusable. I personally put cheating as the #1 most horrible thing to do to a spouse, but I will put a dead bedroom as a close #2.

I can sympathize with your husband. I get it. I lived it myself. It is one of the worst feelings someone can have. It is a horrible lonely feeling. The marriage feels like a sham.


but I didn’t cheat on my wife. I didn’t talk with other women and profess my love. I was simply detaching and was going to divorce and be alone - because being alone is way better than being alone in a marriage, I know this for sure.


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## rugswept (May 8, 2019)

I haven't seen actual scripts like the ones you have that you posted. 
It was so bad reading that, that I stopped reading it. 

Here it is: they had intellectual sex. The only reason that's a no actual is they weren't colocated. He's very guilty of something very very bad. Anger, etc, is expected 100%. 

I've always been locked onto the PA parts of A's (because of things in the A I got hit with). I can now see the EA pain can be debilitating and just be a game ender. Especially when it reads the way your post did. That was tough. 

This can all work again if there's absolutely no contact with her. Tell him if he breaks that, he's broken the two of you permanently. He obviously has feelings for her. Part of this is keeping all of that to himself, entirely. He lives with that. You live with him. But only if that's what you want. 

You're a good person, was very wronged, and do this on your terms. And your terms might be all about doing the best you can to preserve whatever it was that you had.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

I read your boundary thread. Did your husband go on the one week hike with the woman he texted? If he went on a one week hike with her, he's a flat out cheater. You said he feelys polyamorous. If that's true, he's not remorseful because in his eyes he can have both of you. Are you ok with that?

And to be clear, there is no way my husband takes a weeklong recreational trip with a female friend alone. Zilch.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@Fly With Me Your husband is an idiot. I think he was very close to leaving you for his fantasy girl of 20 years ago, but perhaps she noped him?

Sorry, but I don't think he is trustworthy.

Do you have children?

You are right to feel angry.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

As long as he remains in touch with her, even casually, he’s getting something out of it so I wouldn’t say it’s completely done and dusted.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I think he’s pretending not to understand so that he doesn’t have to do more than he’s done (which for many women wouldn’t be nearly enough). IMO, you got played.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Eventually he might cheat with someone, if not his fantasy love.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

After reading your other posts, my feelings have changed.

You mentioned that he's told you he's not in love with you. That is not thrown around lightly. You've mentioned that he's harbored his feelings for this woman for years, and that he told you he's with you because she refused him. 

He's not a good guy. Good guys never say that . He might be attractive. He may be intelligent. But he's not good for you. He's willing to profess his love in email, you mention he travels to meet this woman, and he literally tells you he isn't going to change because as he sees it he has no need to change.

I don't see a loving relationship here. I see you begging him, trying to change yourself, and in return he essentially said he doesn't know how he wound up with you, but he tolerates you. This is so, so sad. You can do so much better. I see him totally devastating you if you put up with him.


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## Davit Bek (Sep 9, 2021)

@Fly With Me I think the response to your question might need a deeper analysis. 

It seems like he himself tolerated a lot of hurt over the years, with you making not as much effort to resolve the issues (not blaming either of you, you both unknowingly made mistakes). He felt being taken for granted, perhaps even taken advantage of, sexless, and by your own admission felt unloved by you. In his mind, he even perhaps tried communicating, or doing the right things to win back your love, only to have no result or even worse, to have it backfire. How tragic for a great chef to cook a wonderful meal, but to have no one to serve it to. I'm sure he has thought about how someone else (in this case the childhood friend) would have loved and appreciated him for all he does. His reaction isn't uncommon, neither are those thoughts or the sentiments expressed. If it wasn't the childhood friend, these thoughts would have been for the first woman that showed him appreciation, deep care, and specially sexual interest. 

The sentiments in those emails were real. It was truly how he felt. But at that time. He no longer feels that way, because he has a wife that appreciates and loves him, and even more importantly admires him. This should be a great lesson to us all that while our vows should and often do guarantee fidelity, they can't guarantee desire. 

On the other hand, I know how painful reading those words are. He thought of someone else as a better partner, lover, a missed opportunity.....It hurts deeply, and makes you question whether those emotions were real and how come you were told the same. I'd say he was honest in both cases, but right now only one of those still holds true. You are his best-friend and his lover today.

What he thought of her, and them together was only an illusion based on interest in the past. His emotions for the illusion of her, were real. But depending on how you treat each other today, a past lover could be a missed opportunity, or not the right one.

It's not that he fails to see the hurt, it's just he knows that if he didn't cling onto anything back then, the wonderful marriage you have now would not have been possible. I am absolutely not excusing what he did, I'm just offering how he saw no other option. In his mind that contact acted like a defibrillator to an almost dead marriage, and he is immensely grateful for what he has today.

I do agree with you that when you feel things are off, they most likely are and when you feel things are right, then you're right. It's the hardest part to fake in an infidelity. So all is right. However, the punishment for his EA is that he can't be in regular contact with her. They can't have a full-blown friendship. And once a year texts are pointless, except to not kill the friendship completely so I have no opinion on that in this specific case.

To you, I'd say do what you can live with. Your advantage over other women will always be the history and the memories you have together, but that's not enough. If he is a good man and treats you well, treat him with kindness and appreciation, and you'll have his heart forever.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Ah, the ol “You should be happy I cheated! Look how great we are now because of my cheating, aren’t you glad I fixed us?!?!”

This is called gaslighting, meant to make you feel like you’re overreacting and he didn’t do anything too bad to you.

I’m not trying to be mean when I say the following, but do you think he is a sociopath who cannot understand empathy, or an imbicile who cannot understand creating intimacy with a female outside of the marriage is betrayal? Those are the only two options for a man who cannot understand how telling another person the HORRIFIC things he said to her, are not a betrayal. I am guessing he is neither sociopath nor imbecile, he’s just plain unrepentant.

That said, I feel for you. The words your H wrote to his “friend”, made me want to puke. Heartbreaking.


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## Davit Bek (Sep 9, 2021)

@Fly With Me I'm going to quickly clarify that I believe there is no excuse for an affair. Ever. While I can't blame him for his thoughts or emotions, I do think he is responsible and wrong for having contacted her and shared his thoughts with her. 

There was a thread on TAM about a man who read in his wife's diary how she no longer had any love for him and that she had fantasized about having sex with a stranger that had offered her help to carry groceries. She had declined the help, and there hadn't been an EA or PA. It was still devastating for him. Thankfully, he was able to save his marriage through months of working on himself in quiet.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

ABHale said:


> I don’t think anyone can understand the pain the betrayed spouse feels unless they experience it themselves. What your wanting isn’t possible unless you turn the tables. I don’t suggest you do this.


His highschool ex girlfriend cheated on him for four months before leaving him for the other guy. It almost destroyed him. I met him soon after that.

He says this is different cause he told me 17 days after he told her about lying to her all those years ago and then it wasn't a secret anymore.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

snowbum said:


> The reason I feel so strongly is that m
> y husband is my person. My love. The one person I'm willing to move mountains for and put up with the ups and downs. And there have been downs. I've never run off to another guy, told him how much I wish I never met my husband, how I " settled" or "somehow married him and still can't understand it".
> 
> That type of language says to me "you'll DO", I "guess" you're ok. Your husband said things you should be hearing, how you're the one he can' t stop thinking of, you're the one he's so glad he's found, and how blessed he is that you did choose him. He's telling her that he wishes he chose her. I could be wrong, but the language he used didn't seem like cheap come ons. They seemed genuine. The fact that he's not remorseful and thinks what he did was ok makes me think he really doesn' t care what he did. Makes me think he meant it, has no regrets, and is letting you try to fix things.
> ...


Thank you Snowbum that really really helps - thankyou for articulating that. Yes part of the pain and betrayal is that he told me I was the one and then he told her she was the one and he'd settled for me. I have a very deep need to be significant, special, unique to the man in my life. It made me feel physically ill and nauseous to think he had been with me all those years becuase he didn't think he could do any better.

He's not heartless and he would tell me. He thinks it's wrong to lie and have secrets. He says he should have told me first about the lie he told to both of us. He just doesn't think it was wrong that he then went on to share all his other feelings with her. (And I do!).


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Contrary to popular belief it isn't all about sex for men and all about emotions for women. What you are feeling about the emotional betrayal is pretty universal IMO. For me, a physical affair would illicit different feelings, but they both very painful. The physical side disgusts me to even think about it, but the emotional betrayal would hurt me to my soul. To see or hear my wife profess her love and longing for another person would break me. I think spouses have an emotional bond that is like no other and it is special, just between them. I do draw a lot of that emotional connection through physical affection, but I can't have one without the other. Knowing that the emotional connection is being shared or transferred to someone else would create a painful hole in my heart. Your feelings are valid, and I don't think they are unique to one gender.
> 
> Does the OW know what has happened? Is she aware that she almost played a part in the end of your marriage? Is she married too?


Thankyou Big Daddy you are right it's not unique to one gender. If it had been a physical affair as well I would have felt very differently. It did almost break me as it was. I think that's what I wish he understood. It broke me to see and read and hear those words.. 

Thank you for articulating that emotional bond - that is like no other. I feel like he took something so special that was just between us that had never belonged to anyone else and when it was at it's weakest point instead of trusting me enough to come to me to help fix it he went to someone else. I can understand why he didn't trust me but it hurts so deeply that he didn't trust me enough. And even after all we've been through since then he still thinks this was the only way. After all he has seen in me this past year. I think I just feel very unseen in the essence of who I am. I can understand that at the time he couldn't see me because of all the pain and resentment but now he sees me more clearly. 

Part of me worries that it was the only way - that it took that extreme a threat to shake me out of my complacency. But I think if he had written the words he wrote to her and shown them to me without sending them it would have had the same impact on me in terms of my behaviour without allowing someone else into our marriage who had no right to be there.

Yes - I took me and the kids away for a few days for some space after he told me and he told her that he had told me. Apparently she was worried about me and felt like it was very serious (which it was!). I tried really hard to believe the best in her for a long time because he told me so much good about her. However, when he asked her to come for a visit after their walk she said she would feel too uncomfrotable around me. Which immediately made me feel like she KNEW something wasn't ok. Plus she already tried to seduce him once all those years ago when he was with me . She is very free spirited and aventurous and has a lot of great qualities but an understanding of loyalty and faithfulness doesn't seem to be one of them. I think that is a big part of why he chose me as he had been cheated on and left just before we got together. Part of me feels sad because I think our chance of all being friends would have been much higher if he had just told me rather than both of us. I don't really know if she is a good person or not without hearing her side of it. She has had a string of abusive relationships so I think she has some childhood wounds that make her pursue unavailable men. She's not married and has no kids. I am angry that she would take so lightly the marriage of a man with four kids. If it had been me receiving those emails I would have been hugely flattered of course! who wouldn't be - but I would have told him to go back to his wife and sort it out with her.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Why are you shouldering the blame for a woman who tried to seduce your husband while he was married? Why are you blaming yourself /accepting the burden for your husband being cheated on by a previous lover? You aren't responsible for either of those things.

Your husband did despicable things. Saying he'd rather be with another woman, and then saying it was a lie when found out is horrible. Essentially he is either a pathological liar, cheater, or soulless ass. None of those are good things.

Any man who thinks expounding on how wonderful another woman is, states that he feels he naturally wants to be with several women, and feels that he did nothing wrong and therefore can't help you fix it because it's your bag is a ****.

His attitude and behavior are not normal. You may have caused him stress. Maybe he felt he wasn't get enough sex. Ok. Fair. But to jump into " I never loved my wife and fantasize about the 20 freaking years we weren't together" is cruel and heartless behavior.

It's a fact he lies to you. 

What does he do for you that makes you feel his heart is with you, and only you? How does he nurture you and make you feel that he would never act this way again? From your own words he still talks to her. That's not good.

I would never want to leave my husband. I've put up with alot (not cheating, texting, etc). But i would never be second best. If he's not out of contact with her now. she's not out of his heart or mind. You can't move on with her in his life.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> First of all, what he’s said in those emails is truly awful. I’m a man and that would hurt me deeply if I saw those emails.
> 
> secondly, it sounds like he is rugsweeping this affair and not owning it. Saying that it helped your marriage? What? He’s got a lot of heavy lifting to do.
> 
> ...


Laterilus this message really really helped thankyou both the validation and the insights. I really appreciated the inverse example and I think that is part of what it is for me. I did have a really strong feeling of I have given you everything and you turn around and give what I most want to someone who has been nowhere to be seen in your life the past twenty years. Mainly because you rejected her and she didn't like it. (That may be unfair there may have been another reason for it.)


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> Hi FlyWithMe,
> I'm sorry, there's no way I can sugarcoat this...
> 
> The bolded above says to me he doesn't think he did anything wrong and doesn't care enough about your feelings to cut her out of his life.


I haven't asked him to cut her out of his life. He said if that was the only way if it was me or her then he would do it. And that REALLY helped! I don't want to force him to cut her out. It may happen naturally or they may be able to transition to a platonic friendship. I am intersted to see how she responds without getting the undercurrent of romance from him. I think that will tell both of us if she is a true friend or not.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I haven’t read your backstory, but it sounds like you put him into a dead bedroom.
> 
> if that is the case, what he did is still not inexcusable. I personally put cheating as the #1 most horrible thing to do to a spouse, but I will put a dead bedroom as a close #2.
> 
> ...


I twasn't a dead bedroom but it was certainly not an alive one - perhaps a lukwarm bedroom which for my husband was very very painful and yes he felt horribly lonely. I agree that it is a close #2. I'm sorry to hear you have lived that and it is good to hear that you didn't cheat. I think that might be the kind of thing he needs to hear. 

He actually finds it really hard that I describe it as an emotional affair because he was incredibly careful for years and years to not go anywhere near anything approaching an affair. I think because this was such an old friendship that predated our relationship it got under his defenses.

Yes that was where he had got to as well. He said that he really felt my friendship but that I wasn't his lover. He described it as more like friends with benefits.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

rugswept said:


> I haven't seen actual scripts like the ones you have that you posted.
> It was so bad reading that, that I stopped reading it.
> 
> Here it is: they had intellectual sex. The only reason that's a no actual is they weren't colocated. He's very guilty of something very very bad. Anger, etc, is expected 100%.
> ...


Thanks for sharing that Rugswept. . It is really helping me to hear how just reading it at a distance still has such an impact.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Fly With Me said:


> I haven't asked him to cut her out of his life. He said if that was the only way if it was me or her then he would do it. And that REALLY helped! I don't want to force him to cut her out. It may happen naturally or they may be able to transition to a platonic friendship. I am intersted to see how she responds without getting the undercurrent of romance from him. I think that will tell both of us if she is a true friend or not.


This is definitely one thing I would not be comfortable with at all. It seems to me that the continued contact will never allow the wound to heal. I thought maybe you hadn't pushed no contact out of fear that he may react poorly and leave. That doesn't seem to be the case since you have talked about it and he said he would cut it off you requested it. I can understand your logic about letting it die naturally. IF that is what happens it probably would have a positive effect on him (for you and your marriage). However, I don't know if the benefit outweighs the risk. How long ago did this happen and how much contact have they had since? 



Fly With Me said:


> I twasn't a dead bedroom but it was certainly not an alive one - perhaps a lukwarm bedroom which for my husband was very very painful and yes he felt horribly lonely. I agree that it is a close #2. I'm sorry to hear you have lived that and it is good to hear that you didn't cheat. I think that might be the kind of thing he needs to hear.
> 
> He actually finds it really hard that I describe it as an emotional affair because he was incredibly careful for years and years to not go anywhere near anything approaching an affair. I think because this was such an old friendship that predated our relationship it got under his defenses.
> 
> Yes that was where he had got to as well. He said that he really felt my friendship but that I wasn't his lover. He described it as more like friends with benefits.


Again, don't want to excuse his behavior, but I think many people seriously underestimate the importance of sex and intimacy in maintain a full connection between spouses. I think if you can keep the physical bond strong it benefits all aspects of the marriage.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

snowbum said:


> I read your boundary thread. Did your husband go on the one week hike with the woman he texted? If he went on a one week hike with her, he's a flat out cheater. You said he feelys polyamorous. If that's true, he's not remorseful because in his eyes he can have both of you. Are you ok with that?
> 
> And to be clear, there is no way my husband takes a weeklong recreational trip with a female friend alone. Zilch.


He did go it ended up being four days. There was a big group of them and they were never alone together. He kept in touch with me the whole time. I actualy feel really fine about that walk. It helped him to find clarity, resolve his feelings for her and move on. It's the emails from the first three months that still upset me. 

He says now that he does have a part of him that is polyamarous but that he is really happy to just be with me. He doesn't need or want anyone else now that I am showing up more fully as myself instead of the shut down version of me from before all this. He knows he can't have both of us. That thread really helped because I laid that all out for him before he left. I was super clear that he couldn't have us both. That he could go and I would trust him but then when he came backit was only me.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

MattMatt said:


> @Fly With Me Your husband is an idiot. I think he was very close to leaving you for his fantasy girl of 20 years ago, but perhaps she noped him?
> 
> Sorry, but I don't think he is trustworthy.
> 
> ...


Thankyou MattMatt I appreciate your perspective. He was very close to leaving me. I don't think she yesed or noped him she simply said " we don't have to label this." And carried on. I do wonder what would have happened if she had responded to those initial emails enthusiasticlly and positively. He says he doesn't know and that bothers me. 

Yes we have four kids.

I think so too. He does too. He is fine with me being angry. And he is fine to talk about this for as long as it takes. He wants me to process it all. I think there might be more for him to process to. I hae asked him to go online and ask people how they would have fett and explore what it's like from my perspective in the same way I have done for him. He says he will.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

Openminded said:


> I think he’s pretending not to understand so that he doesn’t have to do more than he’s done (which for many women wouldn’t be nearly enough). IMO, you got played.


If that's true it's not conscious.He's not a player he is one of the most genuine people I know. There is more here for him to unpack and this thread is helping me to realise that. I might ask him to process some of this directly in counselling.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

MattMatt said:


> Eventually he might cheat with someone, if not his fantasy love.


I don't believe that. I do respect your opinion though. We are so close at the moment that I can't imagine that. I think he would leave if I went back to my old ways. I don't think he would cheat.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

snowbum said:


> After reading your other posts, my feelings have changed.
> 
> You mentioned that he's told you he's not in love with you. That is not thrown around lightly. You've mentioned that he's harbored his feelings for this woman for years, and that he told you he's with you because she refused him.
> 
> ...


thanks snowbum - yes that is what he said at the beginning of last year. It wasn't thrown around lightly at all. It triggered a huge marriage crisis. He had hidden those feelings from himself, from me and from her yes. He's not with me because she refused him. She approached him and he refused her. He also lied to her which is what he regrets. He says he doesn't regret marrying me. He regrets the lies. He says if he had to do it again he would choose me but do it differently. 

He says he doesn't think he was wrong. He has changed a lot and continues to change. He really appreciates it when I give him feedback that other men would struggle to hear. That's one of the reasons I find him so attractive.

He hasn't said any of those things to me. But yes there is the potentail for him to totally devastate me. It has happened once it could happen again. I know I am taking a risk. I have always very carefully guarded my heart. That was one of our problems. I'm choosing to not do that anymore.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

Davit Bek said:


> @Fly With Me I think the response to your question might need a deeper analysis.
> 
> It seems like he himself tolerated a lot of hurt over the years, with you making not as much effort to resolve the issues (not blaming either of you, you both unknowingly made mistakes). He felt being taken for granted, perhaps even taken advantage of, sexless, and by your own admission felt unloved by you. In his mind, he even perhaps tried communicating, or doing the right things to win back your love, only to have no result or even worse, to have it backfire. How tragic for a great chef to cook a wonderful meal, but to have no one to serve it to. I'm sure he has thought about how someone else (in this case the childhood friend) would have loved and appreciated him for all he does. His reaction isn't uncommon, neither are those thoughts or the sentiments expressed. If it wasn't the childhood friend, these thoughts would have been for the first woman that showed him appreciation, deep care, and specially sexual interest.
> 
> ...


Davit thankyou! Reading this was so good this morning. You are absolutely spot on. Your chef analogy is great. He made a smiliar analogy that it was like being a dancer who never gets to truly dance. I love everything you wrote and wholeheartedly agree with it. I could go down sentence after sentence and give it a huge thumbs up. You get it and it's such a beautiful thing when someone understands. It's like breathing fresh air. Thankyou for the gift of your analysis and your kindness and your understanding. It means a lot to me.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Fly With Me said:


> If that's true it's not conscious.He's not a player he is one of the most genuine people I know. There is more here for him to unpack and this thread is helping me to realise that. *I might ask him to process some of this directly in counselling.*


I think that is a terrific idea. 

I read your other thread, and I'm having a hard time blaming your husband and seeing things the way the other posters are. 
NOT that they are wrong...but I don't know if he's being devious and blame-shifting, and I don't know if I would call that an emotional affair, or a threat to your relationship.

I don't believe he loves her or wants her. And even if he decided to leave you, I am not certain that I'm seeing any signs that he would want to be with her if he could be.

It's possible that everything really is exactly as he says it is.

And after your history with him, you are VERY lucky to still have his love at all. You both damaged eachother's trust, and for most men (and women), they probably would have left a LONG time ago, and you wouldn't have the chance to rebuild like you do right now.

NOT that I'm saying you deserve to be treated poorly by him!!! NOT AT ALL. If he chooses to stay with you, then he absolutely needs to be committed to you!!!

I'm just thinking out loud about how your relationship hasn't exactly been a place of trust and comfort and love -- there have been many betrayals over the years, just no cheating...which IS good, but that's not the only "vow" we make when we marry. We have other promises and responsibilities to the person we choose to marry as well, and you didn't keep those vows very well.

And now that you have an opportunity to REBUILD your marriage so it's not just about YOU getting what you want, you are having to consider your husband's needs and choices in a way that you really haven't been willing to before. And I'm wondering if that is what you are struggling with -- HOW to accept the fact that he did and said things that you would normally have attacked and punished him for. So you are trying to manage your emotions about this in a way that is very new for you, and that is what you are struggling with as much as how hurt you are over it.


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## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

This is another great example of my men and women cannot be friends. One or both will eventually have sexual feelings for the other. If you want to cheat-proof your marriage don't allow these type of relationships. Mutual friends can be OK if you all hang out together but a spouse should never be hanging out with a 'friend' of the opposite sex alone. It's also a good preventative measure to not be texting or otherwise communicating with opposite sex friends. This is an easy way for things to go south. First texting, then complaining about spouse, then a 'spark', then sexing, then, well, you know. The same applies to opposite sex co-workers. You have no business communicating with them outside of work. I'd say over 80% of the cheating stories I've read here could have been prevented by the aforementioned guidelines.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Fly With Me said:


> I haven't asked him to cut her out of his life. He said if that was the only way if it was me or her then he would do it. And that REALLY helped! I don't want to force him to cut her out. It may happen naturally or they may be able to transition to a platonic friendship. I am intersted to see how she responds without getting the undercurrent of romance from him. I think that will tell both of us if she is a true friend or not.


Ok, fair enough.

Are you sure you want to go that route, though? He may not be able to cut ties on his own, then what? 

I think you're playing with fire, b/c it was not a one-sided deal at all.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

Davit Bek said:


> @Fly With Me I'm going to quickly clarify that I believe there is no excuse for an affair. Ever. While I can't blame him for his thoughts or emotions, I do think he is responsible and wrong for having contacted her and shared his thoughts with her.
> 
> There was a thread on TAM about a man who read in his wife's diary how she no longer had any love for him and that she had fantasized about having sex with a stranger that had offered her help to carry groceries. She had declined the help, and there hadn't been an EA or PA. It was still devastating for him. Thankfully, he was able to save his marriage through months of working on himself in quiet.


Thank you Davit. That's a great story. I think if I had read those words either in a diary or without them having been sent it would have made a difference.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

snowbum said:


> Why are you shouldering the blame for a woman who tried to seduce your husband while he was married? Why are you blaming yourself /accepting the burden for your husband being cheated on by a previous lover? You aren't responsible for either of those things.
> 
> Your husband did despicable things. Saying he'd rather be with another woman, and then saying it was a lie when found out is horrible. Essentially he is either a pathological liar, cheater, or soulless ass. None of those are good things.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your comments snowbum but it's not an accurate reflection of who my husband is in anyway. If you read the posts from @happyhusband0005 , @Davit Bek and @LisaDiane they have a much better sense of who he is and what was going on.

I will come back to this post and edit it when I have more time about all the things he does to nuture me and make me feel his heart is with me. He does all of thsoe things 100%. 

I posted because I want to understand myself better and what it is that is still upsetting me so much. I feel like @happyhusband0005 & @Davit Bek have done for my husband what I want someone to do for me. Or help me to do for myself. Explain how I feel to my husband in a way that demonstrates they really "get it" in the hopes he might then get it.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> This is definitely one thing I would not be comfortable with at all. It seems to me that the continued contact will never allow the wound to heal. I thought maybe you hadn't pushed no contact out of fear that he may react poorly and leave. That doesn't seem to be the case since you have talked about it and he said he would cut it off you requested it. I can understand your logic about letting it die naturally. IF that is what happens it probably would have a positive effect on him (for you and your marriage). However, I don't know if the benefit outweighs the risk. How long ago did this happen and how much contact have they had since?
> 
> 
> Again, don't want to excuse his behavior, but I think many people seriously underestimate the importance of sex and intimacy in maintain a full connection between spouses. I think if you can keep the physical bond strong it benefits all aspects of the marriage.


I can understand where you're coming from BigDaddy if you read Lisa Diane's post you might understand better. In the past I would have absolutely handled this very differently. I am trying to find a way through this that offers as much freedom to him as possible whilst preserving what is precious and unique and exclusive about our relationship. I don't want to tell him what to do anymore. I do want him to know how I feel though - I think that's different.

I absolutely 100% agree with what you said about sex and intimacy. I'm heartbroken I didn't understand this a lot sooner.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Fly With Me said:


> I appreciate your comments snowbum but it's not an accurate reflection of who my husband is in anyway. If you read the posts from @happyhusband0005 , @Davit Bek and @LisaDiane they have a much better sense of who he is and what was going on.
> 
> I will come back to this post and edit it when I have more time about all the things he does to nuture me and make me feel his heart is with me. He does all of thsoe things 100%.
> 
> I posted because I want to understand myself better and what it is that is still upsetting me so much. I feel like @happyhusband0005 & @Davit Bek have done for my husband what I want someone to do for me. Or help me to do for myself. Explain how I feel to my husband in a way that demonstrates they really "get it" in the hopes he might then get it.


I don't think your husband can understand and I don't think he really wants to. Honestly the fact that he didn't immediately cut off contact with this woman tells me he is still a bit messed up in the head. He has to put himself aside and see only you. In his mind it wasn't the real him that did this to you, it was a version of him in distress. Now he thinks he's better and it was that other guy that did it and you should be upset with that guy not the real guy your husband is now. 

Maybe he needs a reality check along the lines of, I don't think you have the slightest idea of how badly you hurt me because I can't even put it into words, however I have explained it to you multiply that by 100 and you are starting to get close. I don't know that I will ever feel the same way about our marriage as I did before reading those messages. What you did crushed my soul, and might have forever changed me. I may never be able to fully trust you or believe you when you say you're happy and love me. 

Let me state this separately and clearly, *you not demanding he completely cut off all contact with this woman forever is helping to keep him confused.* He's thinking, how bad could it be if you're ok with me still having contact with her. Saying he would and following through are two different things all together. One way is a part of what will help you believe he gets it, the other will keep you guessing. Words are completely meaningless in this situation only clear, concrete and verifiable actions mean anything.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> Ok, fair enough.
> 
> Are you sure you want to go that route, though? He may not be able to cut ties on his own, then what?
> 
> I think you're playing with fire, b/c it was not a one-sided deal at all.


He doesn't want to cut ties. He wants to stay friends. I am ok with a platonic friendship. It is becoming more and more platonic at the moment. We will just have to take it a step at a time and keep communicating (my husband and I). I feel like if she is a true friend she will be ok with the lack of romance. If she isn't she will drift away.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Fly With Me said:


> He doesn't want to cut ties. He wants to stay friends. I am ok with a platonic friendship. It is becoming more and more platonic at the moment. We will just have to take it a step at a time and keep communicating (my husband and I). I feel like if she is a true friend she will be ok with the lack of romance. If she isn't she will drift away.


You are playing with fire or being willfully naive, now.

Would you hand an alcoholic a drink?


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> I think that is a terrific idea.
> 
> I read your other thread, and I'm having a hard time blaming your husband and seeing things the way the other posters are.
> NOT that they are wrong...but I don't know if he's being devious and blame-shifting, and I don't know if I would call that an emotional affair, or a threat to your relationship.
> ...


LisaDiane thankyou for this post. I have been thinking about it ever since I read it. I really don't think he is being devious and blameshifting. I think he is amazing. I didn't post to get a whole load of people telling me I'm right and he's wrong although there is a part of me that is glad it's not just me that would have been upset. I really want to understand what it is about it that bothers me. I think it's a great insight that part of what I'm struggling with is managing my emotions in a new way. I think you're right about that. Thankyou for articulating that for me so clearly and kindly. And yes I am very very lucky. I think it's both things - how to do it and the hurt of it. Do you have any further thoughts on either of those - the how to do it in a new way and how to understand what it was that hurt me? What would have bothered you about those messages?


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I don't think your husband can understand and I don't think he really wants to. Honestly the fact that he didn't immediately cut off contact with this woman tells me he is still a bit messed up in the head. He has to put himself aside and see only you. In his mind it wasn't the real him that did this to you, it was a version of him in distress. Now he thinks he's better and it was that other guy that did it and you should be upset with that guy not the real guy your husband is now.
> 
> Maybe he needs a reality check along the lines of, I don't think you have the slightest idea of how badly you hurt me because I can't even put it into words, however I have explained it to you multiply that by 100 and you are starting to get close. I don't know that I will ever feel the same way about our marriage as I did before reading those messages. What you did crushed my soul, and might have forever changed me. I may never be able to fully trust you or believe you when you say you're happy and love me.
> 
> Let me state this separately and clearly, *you not demanding he completely cut off all contact with this woman forever is helping to keep him confused.* He's thinking, how bad could it be if you're ok with me still having contact with her. Saying he would and following through are two different things all together. One way is a part of what will help you believe he gets it, the other will keep you guessing. Words are completely meaningless in this situation only clear, concrete and verifiable actions mean anything.


Thanks for this. I will think about what you've said.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> You are playing with fire or being willfully naive, now.
> 
> Would you hand an alcoholic a drink?


I am trying to navigate a way through this without being controlling. If it had been a full physical or full emotional affair . Or if he had kept it a secret from me and I had discovered it myself. Or if I had been an amazing wife and then this had happened I think I would feel differently. He has lost a lot over these past two decades including a lot of friends. She is one of the few he has left. There was something really beautiful about the process he went through and the place he is in now. She was a part of that. There is a lot I need to process and resolve inside myself and there is much for him to process and resolve. I don't think the right thing is to force him to choose between us. I know he would choose me. That's enough. It is really hard and I do struggle.

I don't see how the analogy with the alcoholic is relevant. He is not addicted to her. He has a deep need for vulnerability, love, connection, good regular desire filled sex all things we have together now. So why would he go elsewhere? All he ever wanted was what we now have.

I don't deserve the second chance I've received. He does.

I will think about what you and others have said but at the moment that is where I'm at.

I understand how affairs normally play out and why this is the standard advice. I don't think this was a standard affair. I think it was more like a mid life crisis as happy husband said. And the part of him that was in love with her is not anymore. He is in love with me. That's the main thing I need.

I would like to figure out what it is about this that hurts though. I feel like I really get it from my husband's side and I know how I feel but I can't articulate it as clearly as others have articulated my husband's position on this thread.

I dont think it's my fault that he wrote those things to her. I think it was wrong and he shouldn't have done it. I may have to accept that we will always have a different perspective to eachother on it. At this point though I feel there is more to understand in this for both of us. That's why I'm here.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

I hope it works out the way you want it to, it just seems like you're using your guilt from what you did to excuse some of his actions.

It's a tough situation for sure. All the best.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> This is definitely one thing I would not be comfortable with at all. It seems to me that the continued contact will never allow the wound to heal. I thought maybe you hadn't pushed no contact out of fear that he may react poorly and leave. That doesn't seem to be the case since you have talked about it and he said he would cut it off you requested it. I can understand your logic about letting it die naturally. IF that is what happens it probably would have a positive effect on him (for you and your marriage). However, I don't know if the benefit outweighs the risk. How long ago did this happen and how much contact have they had since?
> 
> 
> Again, don't want to excuse his behavior, but I think many people seriously underestimate the importance of sex and intimacy in maintain a full connection between spouses. I think if you can keep the physical bond strong it benefits all aspects of the marriage.


I thought I'd replied to this but I can't see it. Thanks for your thoughts Big Daddy. You have followed along with me the whole way and it means a lot that you are still trying to help me untangle this. I do understand where you're coming from. So the first messages between them were November 2020. The more intense messages petered off around February last year. He still had feelings for her though up until the walk in July. During that walk he resolved the feelings and was excited to come home to me. Ever since then I can feel the connection between them diminishing. He had almost no contact with her at all for a month or so after the walk. She messaged him and told him she was feeling hurt about that and he said he had a lot on. Since then they have had very minimal contact - happy birthday, happy Christmas, Happy New Year type messages. 

I absolutely agree with you about sexual intimacy 100 percent! I feel very passionately about this now. I don't think there is nearly enough understanding of this in the wider world. I truly still didn't get it until last year even though our sex life had improved dramatically four years ago.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> I hope it works out the way you want it to, it just seems like you're using your guilt from what you did to excuse some of his actions.
> 
> It's a tough situation for sure. All the best.


Thakyou TxTrini that means a lot and I really appreciate you taking the time to talk it through with me like this.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Fly With Me said:


> Thakyou TxTrini that means a lot and I really appreciate you taking the time to talk it through with me like this.


Of course.

I've been down a similar road, and know how it feels. I wasn't perfect, so I forgave an EA, just to have it repeated 8 yrs later with someone else, followed by a PA. Did the whole IC, MC thing too.

I wish I had insisted on holding my exH responsible and not caving when he dismissed how much pain the first EA caused. Maybe things would have ended differently and much quicker, but we rug swept a lot to avoid facing some ugly truths. He certainly didn't want to believe he could be "that kind of guy", he was Mr. Wonderful to everyone, his parents' golden child.

These situations are always so complicated, especially when you have a long history and a lot of love.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> Of course.
> 
> I've been down a similar road, and know how it feels. I wasn't perfect, so I forgave an EA, just to have it repeated 8 yrs later with someone else, followed by a PA. Did the whole IC, MC thing too.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing that with me. It makes sense why you feel so strongly about this. I am very sorry you had that experience. Thankyou for caring enough to try to keep me from a similar one.


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## Davit Bek (Sep 9, 2021)

@Fly With Me It is my pleasure. Reading your appreciation post made me happy. Now on to responding to your other question.

Part of your desire seems to come from not having him understand your pain, rather feel it. It seems to me that subconsciously there is a vengeful nature to it, even if not fully realized. I’m here to tell you he has felt your pain. And he has put up with (which was his big mistake) it in silent for much longer than many possibly could. He has felt that pain in all the ways that you betrayed his trust over the years. While I’m very happy to see it was never through infidelity (since you have a strong moral character and great values) it was nonetheless a severe betrayal. 

Even more so, the pain for you comes from reliving the shock you felt when you initially found out. You correctly realized you are no longer that special person to him, or the best thing that happened to him. This seriously pulled the rug right from under you. It questioned your reality (or rather your illusion). It also questioned your comfort and security in your marriage. It startled you down to your core. Reliving this is painful.

What you misunderstand is that you were initially that special person. Your marriage began with you being the best person. But over the years, through neglect and abuse you went from being the best person to someone completely different.

The truth is he never settled for you 20 years ago, you weren’t the safe option compared to the childhood lover, you were the better option. The childhood lover, while might be a fun person, seems to me not to be someone who is fit to be a wife for anyone, much less a great man that has poured his heart and soul for his family. Anyone who tries to seduce someone’s spouse doesn’t have the moral character to be a girlfriend/boyfriend much less a spouse or a parent. And I’m sure he recognized that, and still does. The problem is you stopped being the better option when you became a ticking time bomb and a dictator. A bad lover is a much better option, compared to a dictator. Once I scratch the surface, I'm compelled to see him as the betrayed one.

As to what to do, I’d say try to reconcile your emotions and leave this notion of “I want him to get it”. He does. The more important thing is how to reduce the pain of those emails for you and what to do to become the best wife he (or anyone) could have. The best defense is a good offense.

I’ll suggest you asking him to write letters for you, and tell you how his emotions have changed, what are the positive things that he appreciates today, how much he loves you, and ultimately anything he wants to share with you. Tell him that reading those emails were the hardest thing that’s happened to you, it felt like a dagger to your heart, and that you need to feel special again, but only if it’s the truth. Then, keep the bad emails, and the good letters. Read both from time to time to help you realize the damage that your past behavior had done, and also the immense good that your current behavior does. The only way to be the best option for someone, is to continue being the best option. Past victories don't win trophies today. 

One last thing I’ll mention, while it is important to give him freedom and not be controlling, it is my opinion that one should never bring their guard down against those who would exploit any opportunity to win the affection of someone else’s spouse.

The red line to infidelity doesn’t begin at physical affair. It beings with smaller inappropriate behaviors that make cheating possible. For example, drinking close to the point of impairment while going to a party by yourself where you know there are people that have expressed interest in you. While your husband seems to be someone who wouldn’t cheat even if the opportunity arouse, it is unwise to welcome the conditions under which cheating becomes easier.

This was one of the much better stories on TAM, and I wish you both the best of luck.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

I’ve seen a lot fall for the blame shifting BS. It’s not gender specific. It’s cheater script. They pretty much all follow it.

*Blame-shifting* is when a person does something wrong or inappropriate, and then dumps the blame on someone else to avoid taking responsibility for their own behavior.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

So I went and read your other thread to get some context and I have to say, I totally stand by what I said.

Cliff notes for who didn't:
Early years...
1. OP had health issues that made sex painful but credits her husband with 100% effort, her 20%. Sex was still painful until after the kids were born. So 16/19 sex life wasn't optimal.

Year 16/19...
2. Interesting that sex improved after H read No More Mr. Nice Guy, which suggests that attraction was also an issue.
3. OP says she committed physical and emotional abuse
4. OP admits to codependency and avoidant/anxious attachment dynamics
~ 1 year ago Y 18/19...
5. OP discovers H's EA with unrequited love with former "best friend", H gives OP ILYBINILWY speech

~6 months later, Y 18/19...
6. Spent 6 months of hysterical bonding up until 6 months ago to try to make H fall in love again. H informs OP he will be going on a week-long trip alone with AP to "find himself" instead of going NC.
7. OP is not happy but does not object and believes H's assurances that no boundaries will be crossed.
8. Everyone tells her he is emotionally checked out and the trip is to test the waters with AP and wants to cake eat.
9. Somewhere in the H tells her he is suddenly polyamorous and wants to explore it with another F and wants to leave the M.
10. People advise she go with them, but OP says she can't with 4 children including a 5-month-old.
11. OP feels guilty b/c H gave up on many of his dreams to be a responsible H & father

1 month later Y 18/19
12. 1 month later, OP updates that *H and AP went on trip without OP.* H swore they only hugged for pics, somehow H isn't in love with AP anymore. OP takes H's word at face value, no polygraph test mentioned. 

This week Y 19/19...
13. OP is back here as of 2 days ago with the same problem. H & AP have been in contact since their trip. H appeared not to feel guilty about his EA. OP is still very much hurt, both are in IC.

@ Fly With Me
I read through your entire thread and it seems like you want us to reassure you that you're doing the right thing more than you want to possibly anger your husband by asking him to go NC with "former" EA AP.

Honestly, I think you offered him way too much trust in allowing him to take that trip without you and then taking his word that nothing happened. Since you mentioned how devastated you were when you saw those incriminating, incredibly hurtful e-mails, it means he was living a double life and hiding their EA from you. So he's ok with lies and deceit.

The fact that he won't understand how you feel enough to make your M a priority and cut his "friend" loose suggests that he does not want to close that door firmly "just in case". Granted you hurt him a lot, and are trying to make amends, but it might simply be a case of too little too late and now he's trying to make the best of it to keep you around. 

Otherwise, what does it mean if you split? Is he the sole provider? You have 4 kids including a 1 y/o, maybe it's cheaper to keep you? I know this all sounds really harsh, but it seems that you want to believe all the nice things the people who say what you want to hear and dismiss the ones you don't.

Anyway, as someone who's been down this road, I caution you to keep your eyes open and make a contingency plan in case his "poly" urgers resurface.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Sounds like hubby can get away with almost anything. Sorry, sister.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

snowbum said:


> My best friend in high school and college was a man. I wanted more. We remained platonic friends. Stood up in one anothers weddings. Nothing happened. We were friends for 15 years after marriage, and then lost contact. His wife tolerated me. We were friendly, but she wasn't that keen on me.
> 
> Honestly? If I was in a bad place in my marriage and if I reconnected with my friend and if he wanted to hook up with me..... Well, it would be a bad thing for my marriage. It's never happened, I never pursued it, and I won't pursue it.
> 
> ...


Same here...if my wife spoke to another man like that I would be done likewise. Sex or no sex. Would tell me I was a concelation prize.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Fly With Me said:


> I really appreciate your time and thoughtful persective. It's helping.
> 
> Yes different countries. No they are still in contact. He tells me when she messages and what he messages back.
> 
> ...


Behaved badly? In what ways? Was he possibly trying to establish a deep romantic connection to another he no longer felt with you?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Fly With Me said:


> No I didn't cheat. I massively took him for granted though and we had various problems with our sex life that I didn't try hard enough to resolve because I didn't understand how significant it was. He felt very unloved by me for years - like I was his friend but not his lover. There is another thread where I go more into how very much I got wrong in the relationship and let him down over years.


I can tell you I remember his pain vividly. I can completely understand his feeling regret for his choices when in the middle of what you were doing to him. I can see him fantasizing and longing for the romantic loving connection he was missing. I was to the point of checking out of my marriage with 2 kids under 7 because I was feeling completely unloved. However..I would in no way done what he has done. I would have filed for divorce first. Seems like he did not have the moral standard to file first and his actions kind of had him on life support to get that emotional need met. Still wrong of him.

He might understand it if you go by some of the things I have heard before where guy over hears wife talking to her best friend, when she thought he was not home, about how her 1st BF will always be her true love and how much bigger and better in the sack he was than her hubby. She was with hubby because her true love had dumped her and broke her heart, so she got with hubby. Guy ended up divorcing her as he refused to be backup and her heart belonged to another man. He knew she would always be yearning for what could have been.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

Fly With Me said:


> He doesn't really think he did anything wrong.


OP, 

If he really doesn't think he did anything wrong, I don't believe that the two of you can now be in the great place you said the two of you were.

Why? Since, according to him, he did nothing wrong, there was nothing for him to learn, to change, to improve.

And, since, according to him, he did nothing wrong, that means he can do it again. Why? Because what he did wasn't wrong, according to him

Being in such a place with a partner isn't what I'd call being in a great place, in a good place.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Fly With Me said:


> Hi guys
> 
> In a recent post it came up how men and women need translators.
> 
> ...


An imaginary relationship is always more exciting than a real-life one, innit? That's been my experience over the many, many years of marriage.

In real life, you have to deal with ALL of the realities that the two of you have to encounter together. But with the imaginary relationship, NONE of those real life scenarios exist. So, OF COURSE, that imaginary relationship looks better. It's like watching a Hallmark movie or a highlights reel.

Getting over the pain and betrayal is like climbing a mountain. It's exhausting. A human brain is pre-programed to scream out when there is a perceived threat. So, the betrayal is set on "repeat, repeat, repeat" as a survival mechanism.

I really felt like I was the "safety net" - not the primary focus. Like, oh wow, I'm your 'best friend' - while your wishful imaginary perfect relationship was elsewhere. It doesn't feel like love to be the second choice while expecting me to make him the primary choice.

I feel like - at this point - I simply want to constantly hear the truth. I don't care how ugly it is but one thing I can't tolerate is a single other lie.

If he's attracted to someone else, just take the initiative and say it. I don't need to be protected from anything that involves him telling a lie or the other kind of lying: lying by omission (saying nothing). 

Building a trust-relationship after betrayal involves complete, utter honesty and openness. Nothing short of that works.

And it's a huge slap in the face that he just wants to move on - oh, wow, that's what every person who has done something awful wants to do - just move on. Well, guess what, Pal, you have just landed a tornado on your house and it has to get rebuilt before you can just move back into it.


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