# When spontaneous intimacy becomes problematic why does asking for consent make it worse?



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

This is a trend I have noticed in all my reading over the years between married couples. At some point sexual intimacy tends to break down and one person's advances for spontaneous intimacy get repeatedly rejected. Then at some point the person that gets rejected tries to improve communication by asking first if it is a good time to try and initiate or not. This however tends to be problematic. 

If there is one problem I have noticed over all my reading is that spouses in a long term marriage (particularly women from what I have read) do NOT like to be asked if it is OK to have sex. They want things to just happen naturally. Why is this? Shouldn't improving communication and asking for consent versus a spouse getting rejecting during an advance make things easier? 

And for those that reply this is a sign the relationship should be ended or that one spouse is no longer attracted to the other, or perhaps one person is gay, or having an affair... this is not about that. It is simply a question of why is it that trying to improve communication tends to spoil what could have been a good intimate moment together when a spouse asks for consent. As in, "this was going to be the perfect moment to have sex until the moment you asked if it would be OK and then that completely ruined it" complaint from a spouse. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Desire can’t be negotiated.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mrs. Conan and I talk about it sometimes.

There are times she wants it and asks. She is really the only one who does ask for, sometimes demands, sex.

I usually don't talk much. I just put the moves on her and she responds.

We don't really have too much trouble in that area however and I suspect that people who do will have trouble with conversations about it or just initiating.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Once you get to the point that attempted initiation mostly meets rejection, asking for permission makes one seem weak, needy and unsexy.

As we all know, there are no silver bullets. Try a few things designed to make you appear sexier to your partner (for men, options include hit the gym, rock it at work and plan date nights). If nothing works, have "the talk". Once. And if it doesn't work wihtin 3 to 6 months (and there is a good chance it won't), either choose to leave or choose to render the relationship completely sexless. Much easier to deal with no sex than infrequent, irregular and "mother may I" sex.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

OnTheFly said:


> Desire can’t be negotiated.


Not a reply I was expecting, but I would argue that you are wrong. If you take a couple that at first things worked great but over time intimacy becomes problematic... I do think the things that improve desire not only can be negotiated but that they should be negotiated. A common example is a spouse that does not "try" can be encouraged to improve his/her efforts. Perhaps this is a husband (with ample desire) that does not allow for enough foreplay and if the wife requests more foreplay it actually does stand a chance to improve her desire for more sex. Same goes if a husband (with ample desire) has gained too much weight and it has made sex awkward/uncomfortable for the wife. She can ask him to loose weight or at least try to work on improving his health.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> Once you get to the point that attempted initiation mostly meets rejection, asking for permission makes one seem weak, needy and unsexy.


I think THAT is indeed the dynamic causing problems. I was thinking of it more from a sense of entitlement. In that once someone is told "YES" that then they don't even have to try (mostly meaning to try and make an emotional connection first) before going straight to having sex.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Maybe that’s a “Post hoc, ergo propter hoc” kind of thing. Or, maybe it’s accurate, within a limited part of the spectrum of mismatch/dysfunction we see here.

I have observed, in my marriage, talking hasn’t helped. Sometimes I wonder if asking-as-initiating, or talking about my dissatisfaction and desire for change, has backfired. But, I have to say there has been no shortage of ways for her to avoid intimacy with me at all levels. And no shortage of ways for me to try to make sense of it. It has seemed deep and constant, and over the long term “un-affectable” by me.

Maybe what I think you describe is useful for someone struggling in the early stage of chronic rejection. Perhaps it suggests this as a useful mindset:

“Chin up. Don’t let her see you sweat. Have some self-confidence and certainty that whatever her current negativity, you shall persevere and your positivity will in the long term be enough to get you both through this rough patch. She’ll learn to trust you, to be strong enough and man enough to endure her fears, anxiety, distrust, or whatever lies deep.”

It’s the easiest thing in the world to confidently initiate when one knows the other is desirous and vested in making the relationship thrive.

After enough rejection, and rejection like a river that finds nothing it can’t move around, then there is nothing left but to simply “ask”, and then eventually stop asking altogether.

Sure, one can move negatives to the other side of the equation (referring to your post in another thread). But, if the equation isn’t valid to begin with, well, different problem and different rules.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

This was my experience also.

And, although I don't know if desire can be negotiated, it can definitely be extinguished.



PieceOfSky said:


> I have observed, in my marriage, talking hasn’t helped.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Consent is the wrong word. The word you want to think of is 'interested' - "would you be interested in ..." or "what would you say to a little one-on-one time" or "what would it take for you to ...". You're her husband - not her child petitioning for permission to go on a school outing.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

PieceOfSky said:


> After enough rejection, and rejection *like a river that finds nothing it can’t move around*, then there is nothing left but to simply “ask”, and then eventually stop asking altogether.


Yup


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

It doesn’t work because a woman wants a man that already knows what to do to her, with her, and because of her. She doesn’t want to be responsible for the things done... even if she silently wants them. She would rather be taken with passion instead of timidly asked for permission. If your relationship has eroded into her being the partner responsible for the couples sexuality then the battle is lost and her sexuality is locked away. Asking permission is only reinforcing the failure.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mr.Married said:


> It doesn’t work because a woman wants a man that already knows what to do to her, with her, and because of her. She doesn’t want to be responsible for the things done... even if she silently wants them. She would rather be taken with passion instead of timidly asked for permission. If your relationship has eroded into her being the partner responsible for the couples sexuality then the battle is lost and her sexuality is locked away. Asking permission is only reinforcing the failure.


I totally agree with what you are saying here! 

In my marriage we resorted to scheduling things, which in my opinion is on par with asking for sex as I am the one that initiates the scheduling. So that for the most part takes the spontaneity out of it because when we schedule it and agree on it, it is going to be a sure thing (unless something out of the ordinary happens). 

One time my wife was specifically complaining that it was my responsibility to get her aroused and that I just needed to intuitively know what to do in order to make that happen. I then demonstrated my ability to do exactly that and then I stopped. I explained to her that if she wants something that she will have to ask for it and that I am always more than happy to do so. I then took this a step further and verbally indicated the other things that she would likely enjoy and insisted that I would not do any of those things unless she asks. 

She got upset about it at first, but at the end of the day she has now started to ask for things! 

My line of thinking is that, "desire needs distance!" ...and it can be hard to create that distance to when you are there and more than willing. But making her have to ask for things in my opinion actually helps create that distance to pushes it right up to the breaking point, because I know that she would rather me instinctually know what to do without her having to say anything. So by the time she asks, she more than wants it! In my opinion this is a much better approach that just giving her what she wants regardless of her being ready to want it or not. 

Me personally, I don't mind being asked for things as I enjoy knowing that something is exactly what she wants. On the flip side of things, she does not like me asking for things for me. She just wants me to enjoy doing exactly what I want. The only caveat being is that it for some reason sex has to be scheduled and agreed upon beforehand. Without that she assumes she is free from my advances and that it is just not going to happen (meaning she does not have to reject me). 

So I live in a world of having to ask (meaning scheduling), but I have managed to turn things into my wife having to ask as well once things begin (which she does now regularly). I probably could not do that if I were unable to intuitively know what she wants and actively avoid doing it for her!

I am wondering however if I could now break away from scheduling things by now intuitively knowing what tends to work for her scheduling-wise...

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Everything in context. A spouse who asks for sex while living a sexless marriage is in a completely situation than one who asks for sex in a marriage that's full of sexual encounters. We have what I would consider an informal schedule - basically 1 day on (for 1 sexual encounter) and one day off. Sometimes we'll do 2 days in a row and that will be followed up by 2 days off. More or less, every other day except for menstruation where we normally wouldn't have sex until at least day 5 or 6. Working with this framework, sometimes I'll just "go for it" and other times I'll ask if she's ready. This is the compromise we came up with for our marriage regarding sex. My wife is primarily responsive desire so she won't feel actual desire until we begin foreplay or straight to the deed if we want a quickie.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Mr.Married said:


> It doesn’t work because a woman wants a man that already knows what to do to her, with her, and because of her. She doesn’t want to be responsible for the things done... even if she silently wants them. *She would rather be taken with passion instead of timidly asked for permission.* If your relationship has eroded into her being the partner responsible for the couples sexuality then the battle is lost and her sexuality is locked away. Asking permission is only reinforcing the failure.


Yup!!! Speaking for myself only, I want to know that my partner doesn't just want sex at that moment, he wants ME. About 6 months ago, BF initiated by getting things started...then all of a sudden he literally flipped me over and said "sorry...can't wait...have to have you!" and went to town. I later told him it was the hottest thing he'd done so far in our time together and he was shocked. He thought I was gonna be pissed that he took what he wanted and wasn't concerned with me. Nope. It's about me enough that I know he cares about that, a lot actually. It was just amazing to have him express that he wanted me so much he couldn't wait for it. Now, if he did that every night it would lose its luster and become pure selfishness. But once in a while it's pretty hot. And it's balanced by the amount of times he takes care of me with no regard for himself.

I've also told him early on that I despise being asked for sex. In my case it's because my exH would ask in such a way that it was pretty damn clear he was hoping I'd say no. He'd wait until I was almost asleep for example. It was clear he was doing it so he could later say he initiates but I turn him down. I think I have PTSD about it. 

BF listened and has never asked. He has different ways of initiating and some are a little more passive than others...I come out of the shower and he's in bed naked vs I'm doing the dishes and he comes up behind and starts undressing me. The vibe is the same though each time...I want it, with you, now, and so let's go! It works for me. I've NEVER turned him down. Twice in a year I've preemptively said "hope you're not into it tonight because I honestly don't feel great and I'm wicked tired." and both times he made a move and got it. I think he just saw that as a challenge. LOL A few times when I haven't said that but was dead on my feet he'd tuck me into bed and tell me to sleep well. 

Making your woman feel wanted and loved is what she wants and that's why she hates to be asked. Like all things there are some women this doesn't apply to, but most women I talk to agree with me completely.

As an aside, I feel badly for men...women want to be taken not asked but if they take without asking they haven't gotten consent and that's a bad thing. How is a guy to know what to do? In the beginning of our relationship BF would ask for consent and I finally said "we're in a relationship, you never have to ask that again...if I don't want to consent, you'll know even without asking." It works for us. It might not work for everybody.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

notmyjamie said:


> *I want to know that my partner doesn't just want sex at that moment, he wants ME. *


That is something that has caused issues in my marriage as I have a rather active libido that builds desire over time. My wife on the other hand has an inactive libido that tends to respond to me. So for my wife, I have to do "something" that she responds to and builds desire for her to be with me. 

So from her perspective she has never seemed to understand where my desire comes from. She has admitted that she has no idea what it means when people say they are "horny" and need to have it. So when my desire to be with my wife builds and I ask to schedule things, she then associates that she has not done anything yet to make me aroused and assumes my desire is arbitrary. No matter how much I explain it is a desire to be with her, she thinks it is a lie and accuses me of getting myself all aroused over who knows what. 

Awkwardly if we schedule sex from a point of me having no arousal and we work together to create an emotional connection, which she observes evolving into arousal... THAT she attributes as me having a desire to be with her. If I happen to already be in the mood, she assumes that I just arbitrarily need sex which she then for the most part will block her ability to respond to that or anything I try.

So if we schedule sex and I indicate I am already in the mood = PROBLEM
If we schedule sex and neither of us are in the mood = FANTASTIC SEX 

No matter how much I have tried to attribute my background desire that builds over time to be specifically with my wife, she has always refused to believe it. She asserts that it is impossible for me to desire her because she is not happy with her own self image and claims that no one would be attracted to her. 

It is an awkward problem, but I have been working on it over the years.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

That sounds like it might be a problem for a sex therapist. I am well aware that sometimes BF is just plain horny. That he saw a great set of boobs in a movie or on a woman he saw during the day and so now he's in the mood for example. It happens. If that happens and he comes to me with that need I feel lucky that I get the benefit of those feelings. There are some women that absolutely can't handle it if their partner sees anyone else in the world as attractive. But that's just not realistic in my opinion. A great set of boobs is a great set of boobs...how can a guy who loves boobs NOT see them? It's asking the impossible. All I ask is that you bring that energy back to me. And it helps immensely that even when something else got him riled up he always brings it back around to his admiration of me somehow. "This actress had great boobs and it got me thinking about yours and then I wanted yours so damn bad." or something like that.

Other times, it's MY boobs he's seen and so now he wants those particularly. We were at the Cape a few weekends ago and he practically attacked me once we got back to our room from the beach. I asked what made him so horny and the answer was "I've been seeing your boobs in that bathing suit all damn day" and that obviously feels more special. 

I think perhaps if you approached things that way it might help???? I don't know. But instead of just initiating, you could try saying "I've been enjoying you in that top or skirt or whatever, all day and it's making me crazy" 

Or would she still think you're lying?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I usually don't talk much. I just put the moves on her and she responds.
> 
> I suspect that people who do will have trouble with conversations about it or just initiating.


THIS ^^^^^^^^^

The thing people need to keep in mind is 92.37% of daily life is not sexy or romantic. 

Women in long term relationships typically have more of a responsive desire than spontaneous desire (possible exception while ovulating) 

Thus married women with children and adult responsibilities are rarely walking around in a state of arousal. If you simply ask them if they want to have sex, the answer is invariably going to be no even if they are physiologically vigorous and the relationship is intact. 
Who can have sex right now if there are still dirty dishes in the sink right? 

The conditions and environment for seduction and foreplay must be created and the arousal and stimulation are what leads to the desire. 

In 25 years of marriage and a current average of every 1-2weeks, I don’t know if I have ever simply asked if she wanted to have sex because I know as sure as the sun will rise in the east that if I ask before arousing her myself that the answer will be no. 

The cosmos may not be fair but it is a reality, at least in my marriage, that if I want to have sex, I have to seduce and sexually arouse her before she will desire it. 

I suspect this is not an unusual paradigm. 

IMHO asking just leads to being told no and once you are told no, you are an ahole if you keep trying and it will make you appear weak and pathetic in her eyes.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

badsanta said:


> That is something that has caused issues in my marriage as I have a rather active libido that builds desire over time. My wife on the other hand has an inactive libido that tends to respond to me. So for my wife, I have to do "something" that she responds to and builds desire for her to be with me.
> 
> So from her perspective she has never seemed to understand where my desire comes from. She has admitted that she has no idea what it means when people say they are "horny" and need to have it. So when my desire to be with my wife builds and I ask to schedule things, she then associates that she has not done anything yet to make me aroused and assumes my desire is arbitrary. No matter how much I explain it is a desire to be with her, she thinks it is a lie and accuses me of getting myself all aroused over who knows what.
> 
> ...


That seems awfully complicated.......


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

badsanta said:


> That is something that has caused issues in my marriage as I have a rather active libido that builds desire over time. My wife on the other hand has an inactive libido that tends to respond to me. So for my wife, I have to do "something" that she responds to and builds desire for her to be with me.
> 
> So from her perspective she has never seemed to understand where my desire comes from. She has admitted that she has no idea what it means when people say they are "horny" and need to have it. So when my desire to be with my wife builds and I ask to schedule things, she then associates that she has not done anything yet to make me aroused and assumes my desire is arbitrary. No matter how much I explain it is a desire to be with her, she thinks it is a lie and accuses me of getting myself all aroused over who knows what.
> 
> ...


This is what as known as ‘qualification’ in the PUA community. It is a thing. 

@notmyjamie touches on it from the female perspective above. 

Men are often viewed as horndogs and pervs and many women can begin to feel that their man just wants a place to park their penis and don’t really care who, what or where. 

This can obviously be a turn off if they don’t feel that their man actually wants THEM specifically.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

notmyjamie said:


> I think perhaps if you approached things that way it might help???? I don't know. But instead of just initiating, you could try saying "I've been enjoying you in that top or skirt or whatever, all day and it's making me crazy"
> 
> Or would she still think you're lying?


I think she struggles to attribute how I get aroused and she will not accuse me of lying, but she often says, "you did that to yourself (as in got myself all aroused)!" The gesture of that comment means that my arousal is not her problem and that I should just make it go away. 

During those moments she often is willing to accommodate me if I really need her to, but it is extremely unlikely that she will be able to respond to anything that I do to try and get her in the mood. She has mentioned that she does not mind giving her body to me in a loving way and that she enjoys making me happy if I have to have it, but she also asks that those moments should be the exception and not the norm. 

I have been working to improve her self confidence and she sometimes enjoys being flirtatious when she knows I am building desire. This has been a positive thing, but it is playful process that never leads to anything. For example if she is about to leave for the day she might come and shove her boobs in my face just to tell me that she is leaving and that I can't have them. I actually do enjoy moments like that! It is as if she only enjoy flirting when she knows that sex is impossible at that moment. Perhaps it is out of a fear that I will not respond and that she fears rejection. I'm not sure. 

Badsanta


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

I think maybe a sex therapist could help her in that he/she could help to understand how your desire for her works so that she sees it as a positive thing and not a thing to be questioned or "dealt with." The very idea of her seeing it that way makes me sad for her and for you quite honestly. I think it's a very positive thing that she feels she can give you her body in a loving way so at least you have something to work with as your approaching the problem and how to deal with it.


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## olafinski (Aug 1, 2020)

Hi! New to the forum. I can offer my story and am also eager to hear other opinions on it. 
I am 47, married for 13 years, 2nd marriage. 1st was an early mistake, luckily no kids. With my wife I have a son 9yo and her son 20yo lives with us.
She is truly the love of my life and she has completely changed me and made me the man that I am today in so many aspects.
At first our sex was incredible, total match. We both are not about long sex sessions but like it quick and sweet, with no “gymnastics”. She can come easily and as quick as me.
Quickly after we married I got diagnosed with diabetes T1 which for 4 years I could handle with activity and diet. But I lost too much weight and after our son was born I realised that I should start with insulin therapy. 
I was never a “wood” kind of guy and my errection tended to be very dependent on my mental state. But after couple of years od diabetes it became really awful and I came to a really dark state, having fear of initiating sex because couple of times I could not perform.
At that point because of circumstances (demanding baby, financial crisis, forced moving etc) sex was not our focus for almost 2 years. 
Then when it all settled I got the prescription for Viagra and I tried it and it worked really well. I thought that will be it... BUT
now we come to the topic.
I have 3 ways to go each days, all 3 bad ones, and so we are stuck in having no sex for a long long time...
1) I can discuss having sex today with my wife early enough, during the day. This TOTALLY kills spontaneity and we both find it awful. Our whole lives are so planed for that if we also do it in our intimacy it becomes an obligation.
2) I can take the pill almost everyday minus period days and then “make the move”. If she is OK great if not, not. I tried that but it creates a lot of pressure on me since first its not really without side effects and second it is really not a cheap sport.
3) She can signal that she is for it enough ahead. This is a no go for her because it seems then for her that she is pushing for sex.

So that is my story and after almost 5 years we both dont know how to work it out. Our marriage is constantly on the edge, although everything else works great. 
Because I have mostly come to peace with what happened to me, I could
live in a sexless marriage, but it is not fair to her because she is 46 and still has a lot of fun years ahead.
Off course, if I found the right way I would really like for our sex life to come back.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

olafinski said:


> Hi! New to the forum. I can offer my story and am also eager to hear other opinions on it.
> I am 47, married for 13 years, 2nd marriage. 1st was an early mistake, luckily no kids. With my wife I have a son 9yo and her son 20yo lives with us.
> She is truly the love of my life and she has completely changed me and made me the man that I am today in so many aspects.
> At first our sex was incredible, total match. We both are not about long sex sessions but like it quick and sweet, with no “gymnastics”. She can come easily and as quick as me.
> ...


If you are looking for some suggestions or comments on YOUR situation, you should post this in your own thread, so people will see it! Then you'll get lots of responses!!

WELCOME!!!


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

badsanta said:


> Not a reply I was expecting, but I would argue that you are wrong. If you take a couple that at first things worked great but over time intimacy becomes problematic... I do think the things that improve desire not only can be negotiated but that they should be negotiated. A common example is a spouse that does not "try" can be encouraged to improve his/her efforts. Perhaps this is a husband (with ample desire) that does not allow for enough foreplay and if the wife requests more foreplay it actually does stand a chance to improve her desire for more sex. Same goes if a husband (with ample desire) has gained too much weight and it has made sex awkward/uncomfortable for the wife. She can ask him to loose weight or at least try to work on improving his health.


Imagine your wife is super horny and is looking at you like prey. And she uses all her feminine beauty and power to put her moves on you.... I’m sure it not only puts you in the mood, but it makes you feel great. 

Do you want your wife to be like do you want a blow job? Or do you want her to just get in her knees and give you that look.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I hate to be asked. It ruins the mood. I also like my hubby to smack my ass and tell me damn that hot ass belongs to me. I am a feminist, but I like to be treated like this in the bedroom. It’s personally what I’m attracted to.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

olafinski said:


> I have 3 ways to go each days, all 3 bad ones, and so we are stuck in having no sex for a long long time...
> 1) I can discuss having sex today with my wife early enough, during the day. This TOTALLY kills spontaneity and we both find it awful. Our whole lives are so planed for that if we also do it in our intimacy it becomes an obligation.


My story is different in that my wife has an incredibly busy schedule during the day and sex is a no-go for us in the evenings as it interferes with her ability to sleep. So if it happens for us, we have to plan and make time in her schedule for it to happen. If I try to be spontaneous, those times have proven to be so disruptive to her schedule that she suffers for days catching up and blames me for it. 

My wife has come up with a theory (after reading about marriages) that a certain amount of "maintenance sex" is needed to keep a relationship healthy. This would be different from pity sex or chore sex because the purpose of maintenance sex is for both to try and make a sexual connection that serves to nourish the relationship. It is not an easy thing to do and it takes both agreeing to a certain mindset to not make things stressful and to try and help each other relax. 

It took my wife many years to develop this attitude that kind of serves as a baseline and a safety net for our intimacy. It is all based upon an agreed upon frequency. So when schedules get too busy and nothing happens naturally, making time for one another gets shifted into top priority and we make it happen. 

I think understanding each other's minimal frequencies (how often sex is needed in order to both of you feel loved) is a key part pf this. Once this is understood it takes away the anxiety of one person feeling neglected and how much patience can be extended when needed. 

When spontaneity just doesn't tend to work, as a couple you have to learn what things help improve anticipation. This may include being more playful and flirtatious during moments sex can't happen without a fear of someone's feeling getting hurt because at some point you know it will happen. 

At the end of the day it is indeed a challenge. 

Badsanta


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I just want to add that I think people need to be able to refuse their partner. But if you want your man to have spontaneous sex with you then you shouldn’t be the type of person to refuse frequently.


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## olafinski (Aug 1, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> If you are looking for some suggestions or comments on YOUR situation, you should post this in your own thread, so people will see it! Then you'll get lots of responses!!
> 
> WELCOME!!!


Hi LisaDiane, I certainly will with time and perhaps in a bit greater length since there are some aspects that need more space to explain.
Here I just wanted to participate in the discussion about spontaneous vs planned sex, since in my case it is crucial thing in my marriage and a lot depends on how we will resolve it.


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## olafinski (Aug 1, 2020)

badsanta said:


> My story is different in that my wife has an incredibly busy schedule during the day and sex is a no-go for us in the evenings as it interferes with her ability to sleep. So if it happens for us, we have to plan and make time in her schedule for it to happen. If I try to be spontaneous, those times have proven to be so disruptive to her schedule that she suffers for days catching up and blames me for it.
> 
> My wife has come up with a theory (after reading about marriages) that a certain amount of "maintenance sex" is needed to keep a relationship healthy. This would be different from pity sex or chore sex because the purpose of maintenance sex is for both to try and make a sexual connection that serves to nourish the relationship. It is not an easy thing to do and it takes both agreeing to a certain mindset to not make things stressful and to try and help each other relax.
> 
> ...


Great


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## olafinski (Aug 1, 2020)

Great!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> Imagine your wife is super horny


My wife claims she does not understand what it means when people say they are horny. She claims to never feels a need or desire for sex and says she would be perfectly happy without it ever again. 

On the other hand she is extremely capable of responding to me once I get her in the mood. But getting her in the mood is often as enigmatic as trying to figure out how David Blaine just hid an antique photo inside an unopened WWI ration of your great great grandfather holding up a playing card you just signed ten seconds ago. You know it probably took a lot of preparation and clever mentalism.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

My wife doesn’t respect when I overthink things... I imagine your wife is the same.. seems a bit cowardly perhaps to women when men don’t just go after what they want- when and how they want it.

But, a bit of class helps too. It would be foolhardy to make a move when she’s had a rough day or not feeling good. So I’m not saying you can just go for it every day. I think men are called to just read the situation and act. Asking for sex is a fools errand except perhaps when you’ve got no other choice.... like say you’re super frustrated and leaving on a business trip for a week and she’s exhausted and feeling frumpy and uninterested... situations like that I think it fair for a man to ask for a quickie... but I wouldn’t abuse it.

Scheduling just seems a bit odd and desperate and a bit of a “covert contract”... seems like it would never work for long.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

Mr.Married said:


> *It doesn’t work because a woman wants a man that already knows what to do to her, with her, and because of her. She doesn’t want to be responsible for the things done... even if she silently wants them. She would rather be taken with passion instead of timidly asked for permission*. If your relationship has eroded into her being the partner responsible for the couples sexuality then the battle is lost and her sexuality is locked away. Asking permission is only reinforcing the failure.





notmyjamie said:


> As an aside, I feel badly for men...women want to be taken not asked but if they take without asking they haven't gotten consent and that's a bad thing. How is a guy to know what to do? In the beginning of our relationship BF would ask for consent and I finally said "we're in a relationship, you never have to ask that again...if I don't want to consent, you'll know even without asking." It works for us. It might not work for everybody.


This 1000%. So true for me. I don't want to be responsible for it. I don't want the acts to be my idea. I want to be "made to do things". Yes, sometimes you want to keep your wants silent (or even resist it). But just be "taken". Pretty taboo now and maybe like playing with fire.

I certainly aren't trying to speak for all women but I think this is very common. But notmyjamie points out the obvious problem here. The WORST thing a man can do to a woman is to REALLY do it without consent and sometimes that line can be unclear unless you ask permission for everything. That's usually unforgivable and there could obviously be worse consequences for him. The stakes are high here. Today men are taught this in society so it's not surprising that many men try to "just be sure it's OK". Although this might be conditioned more for sex outside of relationships where there is no trust and misunderstandings are more likely, I think that it also affects the way men act in relationships too.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

JustTheWife said:


> This 1000%. So true for me. *I don't want to be responsible for it.* I don't want the acts to be my idea. I want to be "made to do things". Yes, sometimes you want to keep your wants silent (or even resist it). ....


Now put the shoe on the other foot if you can and imagine your spouse's desire works primarily by not wanting to take any responsibility. 

In my personal opinion that attitude may be a self defense mechanism that results from low self confidence. Therefor you borrow your partner's self confidence and hope they know how to do the right thing. If that fails then it was not your fault because you took no responsibility. Do that for a prolonged period of time and it comes across as downright abusive to a partner that may be struggling to love you. If he asks for help, that then ruins the possibility perhaps because you might become responsible for when things just don't tend to work or getting in the mood becomes challenging. 

That is my opinion at this point. Seriously imagine the shoe on the other foot. Many women on this forum have husband's that take no initiative and leave all the responsibility up to her. The women in those relationships just make it work for a while but over time it takes a toll. 

Why can't both people in a marriage work together and both take responsibility? Why does it always have to be one or the other?


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

badsanta said:


> Now put the shoe on the other foot if you can and imagine your spouse's desire works primarily by not wanting to take any responsibility.
> 
> In my personal opinion that attitude may be a self defense mechanism that results from low self confidence. Therefor you borrow your partner's self confidence and hope they know how to do the right thing. If that fails then it was not your fault because you took no responsibility. Do that for a prolonged period of time and it comes across as downright abusive to a partner that may be struggling to love you. If he asks for help, that then ruins the possibility perhaps because you might become responsible for when things just don't tend to work or getting in the mood becomes challenging.
> 
> ...


I would think if this is happening, you'd have to come up with some kind of more evened out way of doing things. I do initiate with my boyfriend sometimes and sometimes I even "take over" and be the one in charge. He likes it once in a while and so I like to make him happy. Just like it makes me feel wanted when he takes it, he feels the same way when I take it. If he told me he needed it to be that way more often I'd even things out. My goal in our relationship, both sexual and non sexual is for us both to be happy because both our needs are being met. 

I think your question shouldn't be "why can't both people work together" but more "why aren't they?" because really that's the way it should be in a healthy relationship.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I completely agree with OnTheFly's simple answer: Desire can't be negotiated. 

I mean, you are both either leaning toward each other or you're not. Sure, communication might help you overcome if there is a specific thing that is making the partner mad enough to pull away from you, like you not helping with housework or recognizing how exhausted the other is from childcare and finding solutions there (there are no solutions other than both working as hard as the other to keep up, I guess). But as far as losing the spark, I mean, it just happens with time and familiarity. Asking won't change a thing. It's always worth a shot changing things up and planning a childless vacation weekend, but if that's done with the expectation of sex, it will just ruin it. It has to be about just getting away and having fun and just seeing if it changes the mood any. It has to be about reconnecting like you used to before the kids, reminding yourselves why you loved each other to begin with. 

If things aren't working, then change things up. If you are always having to get rejected for sex, stop asking and take up an outside hobby. You still have to be sharing responsibility for the kids and home though. But what's the worst that can happen if you take up fishing or golf or river rafting for the weekend and shake things up a bit? 1) It gets you in a better mood. 2) It breaks the monotony for both of you. 3) It may give the spouse some needed space 4) Because you are doing something full of life and fun, it makes YOU seem more interesting, full of life, and fun 5) It gives you something new to talk about 6) It might make the spouse want to share that with you sometime.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

notmyjamie said:


> I think your question shouldn't be "why can't both people work together" but more "why aren't they?" because really that's the way it should be in a healthy relationship.


That is a good point. In the context of a relationship where sexual intimacy has become problematic and a HD spouse has to ask if/when it is OK to initiate... the other can't sit back, take no responsibility and have actual desires that are kept silent hoping that the other will just naturally figure it out. 

In my case I likely have high functioning autism, so my wife had to discover that and help me out by explaining how her feelings work when I get confused or I am unaware. She now communicates her needs much better. But expecting someone with autistic behavior to just instinctively understand a spouse's feelings and know how to make all the right moves indefinitely... that is about like expecting Netflix to freaking wow you every single time with new movie suggestions when you are ten years into the subscription (at some point the viewer has to put in some effort into finding something good to watch).


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

badsanta said:


> That is a good point. In the context of a relationship where sexual intimacy has become problematic and a HD spouse has to ask if/when it is OK to initiate... the other can't sit back, take no responsibility and have actual desires that are kept silent hoping that the other will just naturally figure it out.
> 
> In my case I likely have high functioning autism, so my wife had to discover that and help me out by explaining how her feelings work when I get confused or I am unaware. She now communicates her needs much better. But expecting someone with autistic behavior to just instinctively understand a spouse's feelings and know how to make all the right moves indefinitely... that is about like expecting Netflix to freaking wow you every single time with new movie suggestions when you are ten years into the subscription (at some point the viewer has to put in some effort into finding something good to watch).


There’s a few threads on here about why men tolerate disrespect, and why men are getting weak. 
With all do respect reading this topic made me think Of that. It is not your responsibility to be fully In charge of your sexual relationship with your wife. And the fact that she has convinced you that it is, to me shows how manipulative and lazy and disrespectful she is. 

Every single women knows men Love Sex. Period.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

badsanta said:


> This is a trend I have noticed in all my reading over the years between married couples. At some point sexual intimacy tends to break down and one person's advances for spontaneous intimacy get repeatedly rejected. Then at some point the person that gets rejected tries to improve communication by asking first if it is a good time to try and initiate or not. This however tends to be problematic.
> 
> If there is one problem I have noticed over all my reading is that spouses in a long term marriage (particularly women from what I have read) do NOT like to be asked if it is OK to have sex. They want things to just happen naturally. Why is this? Shouldn't improving communication and asking for consent versus a spouse getting rejecting during an advance make things easier?
> 
> ...


We both always make sure the other is 'interested' and ok with it before we have sex. I think it shows that you care about the others feelings and its fine with me.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> If things aren't working, then change things up. If you are always having to get rejected for sex, stop asking and take up an outside hobby. You still have to be sharing responsibility for the kids and home though. But what's the worst that can happen if you take up fishing or golf or river rafting for the weekend and shake things up a bit? 1) It gets you in a better mood. 2) It breaks the monotony for both of you. 3) It may give the spouse some needed space 4) Because you are doing something full of life and fun, it makes YOU seem more interesting, full of life, and fun 5) It gives you something new to talk about 6) It might make the spouse want to share that with you sometime.


Those are all good things/outcomes that can be had regardless of how one handles the mismatched desire for affection and sex.

Not sure the degree to which it was suggested one “change things up”. But, please consider some unexpected things that could happen by living your life as if it doesn’t matter whether or not you and your partner share affection and sexual intimacy:

1) a “new normal” sets in, one much less likely to be reversed than the “normal” you had.

2) you become disconnected enough to no longer avoid seeing the depth of your partner’s disinterest in, discomfort with, or even outright contempt for your emotional needs — if any of those apply.

Those are not necessarily bad things, should they come to be. But one should understand their potential for happening, and have a time-specific plan for recognizing and dealing with them.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> There’s a few threads on here about why men tolerate disrespect, and why men are getting weak.
> With all do respect reading this topic made me think Of that. It is not your responsibility to be fully In charge of your sexual relationship with your wife. And the fact that she has convinced you that it is, to me shows how manipulative and lazy and disrespectful she is.
> 
> Every single women knows men Love Sex. Period.


I am often a genius at misunderstanding things and projecting my own ideas into a situation to help make it more confusing. So here is my theory on your comment. 

I don't think my wife is disrespecting me as I see her doing that to herself by devaluing things she finds pleasurable as she thinks that helps her to be a better and more disciplined person. For example she is always dieting and exercising and denying herself many of the things that everyone else enjoys. She gets rewarded for this every time she goes to the doctor as her health is improving. 

I think somewhere in her brain there is this association that when sex feels good that it must be bad for her, just like eating a hot fudge brownie with walnuts, ice cream on top and covered in chocolate syrup. So therefor it may be better to try and avoid it except on rare occasions as a special treat.

If sex is really good she has actually complained that she thinks she is going to somehow hurt herself. "For sure a woman's body is not designed to have that many orgasms and feel that much pleasure. That can not be natural. We better not do that again?"


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

badsanta said:


> I am often a genius at misunderstanding things and projecting my own ideas into a situation to help make it more confusing. So here is my theory on your comment.
> 
> I don't think my wife is disrespecting me as I see her doing that to herself by devaluing things she finds pleasurable as she thinks that helps her to be a better and more disciplined person. For example she is always dieting and exercising and denying herself many of the things that everyone else enjoys. She gets rewarded for this every time she goes to the doctor as her health is improving.
> 
> ...



Wow, if that governed our mature relationship sex life, I'd think someone hasn't grown up yet. Or something.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

One of the reasons as to why it MAY happen is that, there's just too much to do, no time for spontaneity. There's always housework to do, tending to kids/family, dinner, full time job. Second reason may be dwindling feelings or even low libido.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> Scheduling just seems a bit odd and desperate and a bit of a “covert contract”... seems like it would never work for long.


A covert contract is generally when someone does something nice and expects sex in return without indicating that. Are you saying that my wife is giving me sex and expecting something nice in return (since scheduling sex involves the obvious agreement that sex will happen without anything else in return)?

You know she does get me worked up and before we proceed to the really good stuff she does make me agree to prioritize a list of home repairs she wants done right away. Once I agree to do whatever she wants right away, the sex that follows is rather phenomenal. ...but here is the thing. I am the one that encourage her to do that. I told her that sex motivates me and that she should take advantage of that. It am actually totally OK with that, because the stuff she needs done around the house improves my quality of life as well and I enjoy the loving motivation to get things done. 

I don't know if I would call that the same as a covert contract. I think my wife has just learned how to be a phenomenal negotiator to get what she wants. If things don't get done right away she will remind me that the terms of me receiving prepayment will not work if I need to be prepaid more than once or twice (that is our running joke between the two of us)!


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Well, scheduling still seems to be a bit of a covert contract... the woman agrees to it to keep hubby in a good mood. Perhaps not in your case but I could see myself talking my wife into something like this.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> Well, scheduling still seems to be a bit of a covert contract... the woman agrees to it to keep hubby in a good mood.


The difference is, that is an overt contract instead of a covert contract. The bad part of a covert contract is not the negotiating / contracting, it is the covert part. If you say "hey spouse, if we have more sex then I will be in a better mood, be more pleasant to be around, be more energized, and have more capacity to accomplish the tasks on my 'honey do' list", you give your spouse full agency to react as they wish. Maybe your spouse says "I am disgusted by your attempt to transactionalize our sex life, I am not a prostitute". Or maybe they say "gee, I was wondering how I was going to get you to clean the gutters, if all I need to do is have a romp between the sheets, that sounds like a good deal to me". The bad part is when you clean the gutters and then expect your spouse to jump into bed, without ever telling them what you expected in return when you agreed to clean the gutters, and then you get mopey when they don't live up to a "deal" you never told them you were making. In other words, if you keep making deals with yourself, you are likely to have to have sex by yourself.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> The difference is, that is an overt contract instead of a covert contract. The bad part of a covert contract is not the negotiating / contracting, it is the covert part. If you say "hey spouse, if we have more sex then I will be in a better mood, be more pleasant to be around, be more energized, and have more capacity to accomplish the tasks on my 'honey do' list", you give your spouse full agency to react as they wish. Maybe your spouse says "I am disgusted by your attempt to transactionalize our sex life, I am not a prostitute". Or maybe they say "gee, I was wondering how I was going to get you to clean the gutters, if all I need to do is have a romp between the sheets, that sounds like a good deal to me". The bad part is when you clean the gutters and then expect your spouse to jump into bed, without ever telling them what you expected in return when you agreed to clean the gutters, and then you get mopey when they don't live up to a "deal" you never told them you were making. In other words, if you keep making deals with yourself, you are likely to have to have sex by yourself.


I remember when I got into discussing the idea of transactional sex my wife did not like the idea. But I explained to her that sex was something that motivated me and that as long as it is used to mutually improve our wellbeing that she should use that to our advantage. In the meantime she was building some degree of resentment for the fact that I was lazy around the house, so I had to step up and do more regardless of sex to show her that I do care about what she wants done. 

As we worked through this I discovered that it was not about me doing things around the house, but it was more about me insisting that I had to be the one to do it even if it took me a long time to get to it. If my wife wanted something done, she just needed me to be OK with it being done regardless of who got it done (as in her hiring help). She didn't like the feeling of not having control of things in her own home combined with the notion of me being neglectful of those things. So now a days if the garage door is broken, I don't insist on fixing it myself and taking months to do it. That can be dangerous anyway. I now am the one to help pick up the phone and get the garage door fixed by tomorrow afternoon. 

This is not exactly what this thread is about, but it helps describe an underlying problem that can help add to the things that makes the topic of this thread problematic. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> ...She didn't like the feeling of not having control of things in her own home combined with the notion of me being neglectful of those things.


I'll add to this that our home is now at the age where a lot of things suddenly need attention. The other day a major appliance broke and I insisted on being the one to fix it. BEFORE I did that, I watched a few youtube videos to make sure it was something I could do reasonably quick without screaming profanity in the process. Sure enough it was something on par with changing a light bulb. I ordered the part off Amazon and had our appliance back up and running the next day. 

If I was not sure I could do it, historically I would have procrastinated and given 100 excuses as to why we need to do without that appliance for a month or more. Now I just admit what I can and can't do and hire help when needed. 

I think many marriages have this issue. It is not easy for a man to admit that he can't do something sometimes. Especially when he knows it would be way cheaper if he could DIY. 

Badsanta


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