# Can you love someone yet treat them like crap?



## st5555 (Dec 7, 2019)

My wife and I are both 69 and been married almost 50 years.
She used to be very verbally abusive, but has gotten much better the past five years or so.

But she still is very critical and controlling of me. I feel like she's always judging me. She's always only been able to see the negative side of things, she couldn't say something positive if her life depended on it.

I've told her many times that she acts like she's superior to me and if only I was more obedient, we wouldn't be having these issues.

I've been in IC for almost a year now and am much more assertive. During one minor spat we were having, she said outright that she hated me being more assertive, but I refuse to be her doormat anymore.

She says she loves me and is an excellent caregiver. But she can't seem to not be critical or judgemental. What I see by some of her comments is disdain, contempt, accusatory or just plain judgemental.

When I stand up to her and call her behavior out, she says she doesn't mean to say those things.
I'm calling Bullsh!t. I don't go around saying things I don't mean and I don't think most people do.
I feel like she's just showing her true self and displaying how she really feels about me. By saying she loves me, she's trying to diffuse the situation and hoping I'll be a good boy and stop standing up to her. 

So what I'm really wondering about is, can you treat someone like that and yet love them? For me the two don't seem to go together and I'm beginning to wonder which side is true, the side that says she loves me or the side that says I deserve to be treated like a piece of crap.

If both can exist at the same time, then wow we humans are certainly complex.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

st5555 said:


> So what I'm really wondering about is, can you treat someone like that and yet love them?


It sounds like she loves you, but doesn't like you very much.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

st5555 said:


> My wife and I are both 69 and been married almost 50 years.
> 
> She used to be very verbally abusive, but has gotten much better the past five years or so.
> 
> ...


We are indeed complex, and we can indeed love someone and treat them badly.

Part of the problem is we have this, if you'll pardon the pun, romanticized ideal of what love is and will cause someone to do. Love doesn't mean you are compatible as partners, or for living together, or will even treat each other as you desire. Note here I said desire, not deserve. While both are subjective, deserve implies an external judgement agency, which doesn't actually exist, save in our fellow humans. And of course there will be a wide range of opinion on such.

Now the way your wife acts may be part and parcel of who she is. Or she may be acting out based upon past experiences. The key thing for you to remember is that you can't change her. Only she can do that. Just as you have changed and become more assertive, so it's possible that therapy can allow her to change as well. Just don't count on it. 

The biggest question for you is, will you continue to put up with it? What is your limit? 

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Your wife reminds me of my mom. She is super negative and critical of my dad. Her tongue is very harsh, and people meeting her don’t think she is very nice. She makes herself look. As. However, my mom has the biggest heart. And she will do anything for those she loves, especially my dad. She is very nurturing (with her actions), and no a lot of people get to see that part of her. 

My mom will wake up with my dad and make him breakfast. My dad has never once cooked for himself, did his own laundry, or cleaned a dish. My mom shows her love through action. My mom will wake up in the morning and start the fire before anyone is awake. She makes it so we never had to lift our fingers. 

She can’t help being negative, it is what it is and she won’t change. 

Your wife loves you. But that doesn’t mean you have to be her doormat. Keep loving her and standing up for yourself.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Random story... my brother is married to an Italian. She is pregnant with our first grandchild and she told her parents and they all went nuts and cried and was so happy blah blah. They go to tell my parents and my parents were like aw that’s great. And that’s it. No over the top excitement. 
I know my mom very well. She can’t wait to have a baby In the family. The first thing she did was go out to a bunch of stores and find the softest nicest yarn and she started knitting a baby blanket that day. That’s how my mom shows her love and excitement...
My brother called me and basically told me how awkward it was going from his wife’s parents to ours and how they couldn’t care less. He doesn’t understand my mom. My mom told him she was making a baby blanket... and his response was... why? Isn’t it easier to just buy one? 

My point is... not everyone is the same. What my brother said to my mom crushed her. But he just doesn’t get it. My mom for whatever reason can’t verbally give us what we want. So she does it in the only way she knows how. And we need to figure out how the people closest to us show us love and we need to understand and appreciate what we DO have.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*You should always love your partner as you love yourself! 

And if perchance that you can't, then I'd have to say that it's largely due because of egotism, fear, or just gross indifference!
*


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

I really don't think, a person who says those words without following up with the gestures of love do in fact love you. I think they ar weak and attempt to throw you off, by saying one thing and doing another. Are these ........

Say this to descalate, the moment.

Don't like themselves much.

Feel no romance towards you.

Want their needs met first and foremost.

Don't know how to love, so can't give you something that they don't have.

Are bullies, and it always about the wins 

Really not that into you.

Validate their actions by themselves.

Have a ability to make themselves look like the victim.

Believe they are so right will continue the charade as long as they suck in air.

Really don't care of your happiness, only theirs.

Some narcissistic behavior you never quite put your finger on because it was kinda passive at first then goes full blown ( manipulator).

Harbor all the wrongs you have ever done, and uses those as why you must OBEY.

Likes themselves enough to let you pay the price for their happiness.

Are of the mind set, if they approach the same issue different ways until they will get the result they want. ( Almost like a game).

And in the end l believe the are just manipulator's and use passive and aggressive ways to get only what they want.

I guess you can say that they are CONTROL FREAK'S.

What do you say sa5555?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

To answer the question in your title: "no". 

If you love someone you don't treat them like crap. Its standard abusive behavior to mistreat someone and then pretend that its the victim's fault. Not all abuse is extreme, there are a lot of cases of low level verbal abuse, thats just sort of being generally unpleasant to your partner. 

BTW, I don't wan to minimize "real" abuse which can be extremely bad, I just can't think of a better word and it seems to be a continuum of behavior.


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## st5555 (Dec 7, 2019)

After so many great replies of which it sounded to me that, yes you can love someone and yet not treat them very nice. 

I printed out what was said so far as I wanted to show my wife what other people thought. Sadly her response was, "How do you think that makes me feel when you show me that crap?". So sorry to say this, but I guess you guys are full of crap. 

She said maybe we should go back to MC again. I said go ahead and make the appointment and I'll go with you. But last time we went it didn't work out very well. A few years ago we went to MC, I thought it was a great session with good progress. When we got into the car, she exploded and said if I cared for her at all, I wouldn't have said those things and hurt her feelings. So this time, I'll be a bit wary of what I say which is why I've been going to IC as I can say anything without repercussions. 

I think she's a bit narcissistic as everything revolves around how it makes her feel. No matter what happens, she'll respond by what it's doing to her or how it's affecting her.

I know one thing, I won't print out any more responses from here because she doesn't want to read this crap!


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Love doesn't fix every flaw in a person. A classical but wrong approach to addiction is "If you really love me, quit cocaine." The addiction is a flaw(a very big one), and while love might sometimes motivate the addict to do the work to overcome it, love doesn't automatically fix it. A coke addict will frequently treat those close to them like crap.

Your wife has a behavioral flaw, and it doesn't tell you if she loves you or not.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MJJEAN said:


> It sounds like she loves you, but doesn't like you very much.


I agree, but would add that she also doesn't respect you at all.

Now, it's up to you to decide if love without respect is true or not, but the core reality here is that your wife has zero respect for you. She does this because she can, and likely also because while she may love you, she seems to love her own ego more. 

So there it is. 

My advice is to find her source of power over you - in her mind, in your mind, or both - and take it away.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

st5555 said:


> I printed out what was said so far as I wanted to show my wife what other people thought. Sadly her response was, "How do you think that makes me feel when you show me that crap?"


Answer: "How do you think I feel when you tell me your crap?"


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

st5555 said:


> After so many great replies of which it sounded to me that, yes you can love someone and yet not treat them very nice.
> 
> I printed out what was said so far as I wanted to show my wife what other people thought. Sadly her response was, "How do you think that makes me feel when you show me that crap?". So sorry to say this, but I guess you guys are full of crap.


I'd answer her question with "I expect it is upsetting. But I'd also expect as half of a committed relationship you'd honestly ask yourself if you're being fair or if you could improve some how." 


> She said maybe we should go back to MC again. I said go ahead and make the appointment and I'll go with you. But last time we went it didn't work out very well. A few years ago we went to MC, I thought it was a great session with good progress. When we got into the car, she exploded and said if I cared for her at all, I wouldn't have said those things and hurt her feelings. So this time, I'll be a bit wary of what I say which is why I've been going to IC as I can say anything without repercussions.
> 
> I think she's a bit narcissistic as everything revolves around how it makes her feel. No matter what happens, she'll respond by what it's doing to her or how it's affecting her.
> 
> I know one thing, I won't print out any more responses from here because she doesn't want to read this crap!


Do you see that she's found an effective tactic for shutting down your criticism? Don't play into that. "Not all of my responsibilities make me feel good, but I honor them anyway." Encourage her to calmly explain her side, but not ditch stuff b/c it doesn't make her feel good.

Appeasing her in the short term isn't going to work in the long term.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

Unless an individual has done the work they will show love in the way they were most prevalently shown live in their youth. 
So yes, someone can live another and treat them badly if that’s the only way they were taught.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

This is who she is. And late in life real change is iffy. But maybe MC will help her dial it back a little.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

She can't make it all about her unless YOU let her.

Stay on target. If she makes it about her you swing it back around to the issue.

Her: "How do you think that makes me feel when you show me that crap?"
You: "I imagine it makes you feel negatively. However, they way you behave IS a problem and it IS doing damage to our marriage, so we need to address it."

Her: "If you cared for me at all, you wouldn't have said those things and hurt my feelings."
You: "I understand your feelings are hurt and I am sorry for that, but your behaviors have been hurting my feelings and you need to address the issues causing you to treat me badly."


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

it says more about her than it does about you.

she can love you, at least that part of her that is capable of loving something. it may be a very small portion that is greatly obscured by her severe insecurities.
those who are hypercritical are usually extremely insecure and need to put others down in order to elevate themselves.

she is probably a damaged human being and incapable of showing love the way it should be. but again, that says more about her damaged self than your lovability.

none of us are 100% of anything. none of us are 100% good or bad. none of us are 100% loving or 100% hateful. 

somewhere in that severely damaged psyche of hers there is a portion of herself that is capable of loving something, probably at some very impaired level, even you.

this doesn't help to solve your problem, but only to attempt to answer your original question.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

@st5555,

Before your question can be answered, we'd have to define the word "love".



*Definition of love*

(1) : strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties 
maternal love for a child
(2) : attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers 
After all these years, they are still very much in love.
(3) : affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests 
love for his old schoolmates​
I think that your wife loves you in the only way she knows how. My bet is that if you left her or died, she would be devastated. Sometimes people feel so secure in their relationship that they do not filter their words and actions, thinking that the other person will always be there no matter what.

Did your wife grow up in a home in which people treated each other in this manner? Did she watch her parents act this way? If so, she would have learned that this is what love is like.

Are you familiar with the saying "Love means never having to say you're sorry."? It's from an old movie "Love Story". While the septimate fits the movie, it does not work very well for love in real life. But a lot of people live their lives that way.

Part of the issue is that you have taught your wife that it's ok to treat you that way. You don't have strong boundaries on how you will allow yourself to be treated. Boundaries are not about the other person. They are about what you will allow in your life.

Set some boundaries for yourself. There are some books on amazon and other book sellers on this topic. Then learn to enforce them... enforce them gently over time since your wife's behavior has been a many year behavior pattern. Both of you should get into individual counseling.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

arbitrator said:


> *You should always love your partner as you love yourself!
> 
> And if perchance that you can't, then I'd have to say that it's largely due because of egotism, fear, or just gross indifference!
> *


A person like his wife might very well lover herself in the same manner that she loves him... meaning that she might be very harsh and critical of herself.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Marduk said:


> Now, it's up to you to decide if love without respect is true or not, but the core reality here is that your wife has zero respect for you.


I can tell you this, that for me, a marriage without respect is a completely worthless, one-sided fiasco, which has no benefit whatsoever for me. Only responsibility, with no reward.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> *A person like his wife might very well lover herself in the same manner that she loves him... meaning that she might be very harsh and critical of herself.*


*But doesn't it stand to reason that that would largely mean that their spouse would either dislike or even disrespect themselves, would it not?

And rather than exacting their heartfelt "love" on their partner, would project their negativity upon them?*


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

For me this has to do with your definition of love. This is not a dictionary definition, but an expression of how you personally give and receive love.

My own experience is that I can't have love without respect and trust. They are wound up together for me.

So, for me, I would agree that your W doesn't love you, since she treats you with disrespect.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> @st5555,
> 
> Before your question can be answered, we'd have to define the word "love".
> 
> ...


You had me up until the word gentle.

She has not been gentle with him. She does not deserve what you are asking him to do. And it's a big license for him to get more abuse.

My advice would be to do all of this, minus the gentle part. In fact, the more abrupt and strong the adjustment is, the more likely it is to be effective in my opinion.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

TJW said:


> I can tell you this, that for me, a marriage without respect is a completely worthless, one-sided fiasco, which has no benefit whatsoever for me. Only responsibility, with no reward.


Which is the marriage he has been living in. And the one, it seems, she is quite content to continue living in.

I have little doubt that in her mind the only real problem here is that he complains about it.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I have met some people who's first comments in any subject come out as sarcasm and of that group it seems more are argumentative that any group or others that don't go right to the sarcasm or negativity. 

A couple are good folks, it truly is a behavioral issue. The rest are truly sour people. 

I've had to consciously pay attention to these folks as some are in a branch of our social groups.


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## st5555 (Dec 7, 2019)

Thanks for all the great replies. I am mostly a lurker here, but it's nice to know I can get multiple educated opinions if needed. 

Monday I am seeing my IC for my weekly appointment. Tuesday we are seeing the MC we used to see years ago. Two different therapy sessions in one week, whew. 

I mentioned how if I was open and honest in MC, she'd let me know once in the car how much I hurt her feelings, so I became very careful about what I said. She came back with that she didn't remember that, I remember and hang on to too much from the past and I shouldn't dwell on such old events. Well, I don't dwell on them, but when you bring something up, I might remember how is used to work in the past. I now feel like I should have asked her what the expiration date is on past issues; 6 months? 1 year?. Knowing would be helpful to know what I'm supposed to forget and what to bring back up.

One comment above was basically how "attached" to me was she? Each spring she will go to Florida with her sisters and friends for about two weeks. I am perfectly happy living here alone during that time. I consider it a vacation for me also as I get to play bachelor. A few months ago I became fed up with her chronic negativity and made plans to leave her. Not considering divorce, but just needed an extended break. When she became aware of this, her first comment was "I can't live here alone". It was almost as if she was talking to herself. Her second comment was, "This is a real eye opener.". I didn't leave her and she at least became much less negative (at least on the outside). As I told my IC, she wasn't negative or positive, just neutral. I could live with that as if she did try to act positive, I would know she was just putting on an act anyway. 

So I know she'll be willing to do just about anything to prevent me from leaving. It's a bit empowering. But I haven't played that card since as all in all, things were better but she can't help but let the negativity slowly creep back in.

Things are good with us right now. Kind of glad I'm seeing my IC the day before. I will discuss with her the best way to approach the MC the next day. I usually prefer openness and honesty, but I am not adverse to diplomacy. 
I'll give you an update soon after our MC session to let you know how things went.

Thanks for all the insight and help.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

st5555 said:


> Things are good with us right now. Kind of glad I'm seeing my IC the day before. I will discuss with her the best way to approach the MC the next day. I usually prefer openness and honesty, but I am not adverse to diplomacy.
> I'll give you an update soon after our MC session to let you know how things went.
> 
> Thanks for all the insight and help.


Sir, l do think that there is nothing you will do to make yourself happy, so if the little (and l mean little things you get) are enough to get by. Maybe you were just venting or so, and life picture has been drawn to it's completion. So sit back and take what little it takes to make you happy, because your worry about your family and friends of what they will think so be it. I do wish you well in the sincerest way.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

st5555 said:


> Thanks for all the great replies. I am mostly a lurker here, but it's nice to know I can get multiple educated opinions if needed.
> 
> Monday I am seeing my IC for my weekly appointment. Tuesday we are seeing the MC we used to see years ago. Two different therapy sessions in one week, whew.
> 
> ...


She sounds like a nice person. Not. It reads like you have been in this relationship -- with a not nice person who manipulates you emotionally--- so long, that you have lost any sense of what a mutual, caring, respectful relationship looks like (hint: not this one). And that you have also lost sense of appropriate boundaries for how you are treated--- especially in the area of emotional manipulation (being TOLD how to feel and what to feel and timeframes for mentioning things that bother you, etc.).

The "I can't live here alone" comment surely is eye opening. She doesn't want YOU, she just needs a partner.

That alone would send me divorcing.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

You need to retrain her. She's used to treating you this way so you need to train her to talk to you differently. When she issues one of her proclamations, hold up your hand and say "Stop! I'm giving you an opportunity to take it back or rephrase your complaint". Should she refuse, leave the room or the house. Don't just let her get away with it. 

Read up on the 180 and employ it when she pulls this nonsense.

Also, next time she goes to Florida, tell her to take all the time she wants as you enjoy the peace. Let her know that she is not a pleasant person to live with and, in fact, she is quite the drag. Maybe, she'll do a little soul searching while she's away. It wouldn't hurt if when she came back, you had some new duds, cologne and new hobbies.:wink2:

If worse comes to worst, treat her the same way and see how she likes it.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

You received some good feedback but may receive even more useful advice (or insight into your wife's motives) if you could provide some examples of her criticism or what she feels are your shortcomings (especially the recurring themes).


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## st5555 (Dec 7, 2019)

Robert22205 said:


> You received some good feedback but may receive even more useful advice (or insight into your wife's motives) if you could provide some examples of her criticism or what she feels are your shortcomings (especially the recurring themes).


This was my introduction:
https://talkaboutmarriage.com/new-member-forum-introduce-yourself/437935-i-used-love-my-wife.html

Basically me venting and sharing what my marriage has been like.
All in all, as mainly a lurker, yes my marriage has issues, but my issues seem minor compared to what others are enduring here.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I just re-read your other thread. Your wife may have loved you when she married you or she may have learned to love you later or she just tells herself she loves you because she’s scared to be alone. Only she knows the truth there. But however she truly feels, she will never love you the way you want to be loved because that’s not who she is. She’s improved with great effort but she’s probably reached her maximum there. You need to find a hobby or something that will give you a break from her negativity and then maybe the two of you can enjoy being together more than you do now.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You teach people how you want to be treated. You have allowed her to abuse you. You say that she is afraid of you leaving her, so make it crystal clear that you will do exactly that if she doesn't change the way she interacts with you.

One of the first things I would do is put the kibosh on her refusal to discuss past grievances. She controls your narrative and life by insisting on her way or the highway regarding this. Tell her that you will discuss the past as you need to and if she can't accommodate you, then you will leave. Remember that some of the best marriage specialists insist that addressing past issues is essential to healing a marriage. Go with that.

Second, keep doing things independently. The more you detach from her, the more confident you will be. The more confident you are, the less likely she is to treat you like a doormat. Detach a bit and take care of your individual needs and wants. Why not take that extended vacation? Why not do a lot of things that you have resisted doing simply because of the negative person you are married to?

Today is the first day of the rest of your life. Start living for your own contentment, not hers. Start doing it now.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

st5555 said:


> I mentioned how if I was open and honest in MC, she'd let me know once in the car how much I hurt her feelings, so I became very careful about what I said.
> 
> 
> So I know she'll be willing to do just about anything to prevent me from leaving. It's a bit empowering. But I haven't played that card since as all in all, things were better but she can't help but let the negativity slowly creep back in.


You are wasting time and money going to MC without being truly being open and honest at every appointment. A therapist of any stripe cannot help you if they do not understand the problem and the severity of the problem. Your wife cannot make the necessary changes if you allow her to manipulate or intimidate you into silence.

She'd do anything, huh? Would she change and treat you like she loves you?


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