# Entitlement



## RDJ (Jun 8, 2011)

I believe very much in the institution of marriage. By this I mean that marriage is an integral part of the human experience, and it is something that is worth fighting to save. This is not to say that I believe every marriage can be saved, or should be for that matter. It simply means that I do not believe that divorce solves problems. At best divorce allows you to walk away from some of your personal issues. At worst it simply postpones certain life lessons for a later date.

Even when my marriage was struggling most, divorce was not an option that I seriously considered. Many people have certain conditions on their marriage that they consider to be deal breakers. These deal breakers are essentially outcomes that a person considers to be so unacceptable that if they ever occurred, it would be time to end the marriage. It is almost as if we install these self-destruct buttons into our marriage and then tell our spouse that if they ever push this button, the whole thing goes BOOM.

So what happens when one of those self-destruct buttons actually gets pushed? 

The whole idea of a “deal breaker” seems to me to be a misnomer. Marriage is not a “deal”. It is not like the two of you sat down once upon a time and negotiated an elaborate agreement that has been signed, notarized and filed with a lawyer. It is a commitment of faith. Both parties entered into the relationship with certain expectations. Some of these were clearly stated and some were not. It is often the “hidden” clauses that come back to bite us. We assumed certain things that may not have been realistic. We did not promise to love, honor, and cherish, until such time as you piss me off sufficiently that I don’t want to be around you anymore. Nor did we state that if you don’t meet my needs when, where, and how I wish that I reserve the right to ditch you and find someone else who will. Those kinds of expectations are kept in the back of our minds until such time as they were violated and then we bring them out and state that this is grounds for divorce.

The problem, as I see it, is an attitude of entitlement. We believe that certain things are owed to us in marriage and that a person should “leave and/or divorce” if those conditions are not met. People feel that they are entitled to have their needs met. They feel that it is their spouse’s responsibility to provide all that they need form a relationship and not ask too much in return. They believe that it is their spouse’s responsibility to make them happy.

I am sorry to say it, but we are not entitled to anything in marriage. Marriage is a partnership. You would not expect a business partner to do whatever you wanted simply because you have expectations that you think should be met. You recognize that if you do not hold up your end of a business deal you will soon be out of business. It is the same in marriage. If you want a marriage to work then you have to be clear on what it is that you want from it AND what you are prepared to contribute. If your taking is going to exceed your giving then there will be problems.

All that is good in life comes at a price. The game of life is about exchanging energy in one form for energy in another form. Like everything else in our lives, we have to invest ourselves in our marriage if we expect it to grow and thrive. We also have to be willing to take a chance and possibly make mistakes. Marriage is a role that you have to grow into. 

Unfortunately, there is no training course that churns out expert spouses. You have to be willing to train on the job.
This is true of every aspect of married life. You learn how to live together. You learn how to make love together... Even with something like raising our kids we have to grow into it. We make mistakes; we learn from them and move forward, we are tested time and time again. Sometimes we fail, but we do not hold it against ourselves or our children. There are no perfect parents, and there are no perfect children. Eventually we work through the mistakes, as painful as they may be. We persevere through the struggles and we are rewarded for our efforts through the simple joy of growth. We look back on all of the obstacles that our family has overcome and marvel at how we all grew through those times. It is not that we lucked out and found the perfect spouse, and then had the perfect kids, and thus a perfect life. We worked hard for every good thing that came to us, and that is what makes it special.

However, many people do not see it that way. When they see a happy couple enjoying time together they honestly think that those people got lucky. They believe that some relationships “just work” and perhaps they can find one of those magic relationships if they go looking. They feel they are entitled to certain things and marital bliss is simply a matter of finding someone who is willing to give them all of those things.
So many, with this attitude of entitlement react to marital problems by blaming their spouse. They feel that all of their marital problems would be solved if only their spouse would get with the program and start giving what they need to receive. This is what “falling out of love” is. They had this balloon of expectation and reality failed to live up to it, so the balloon has been deflated. They stop investing themselves in the marriage. They withdraw, withhold affection and refuse physical touch or sexual closeness. They pout, get angry, manipulate, and try to force their partner into submitting to their desires. They do all kinds of things that simply further tear their marriage apart. 
At a time in your marriage when you are reacting to hardships in these ways, you are doing the exact opposite of what you should be doing. If you really loved and cared for your spouse, and you really wanted to save your marriage, you would do the exact opposite. Rather than pulling back, you would double your efforts to be kind, loving, affectionate, and sexual. Even if it feels counter-intuitive to do so, you keep trying. When you use positive tactics, in the end, the reward is worth the effort. 
Marriage requires effort to be successful. The more that you put into a marriage, the better the chance of it succeeding. If both partners are only concerned with their own needs (i.e. what they will get out of this deal) then there is no one pumping positive energy into it, and the relationship will starve. You cannot draw water from an empty well.

Let go of the idea that love is a magical thing that happens when you find the right person. Believing in that delusion will have you always casting sideways glances to see if there is a better soul mate out there somewhere. You will not be fully invested in your current marriage if you think the grass may greener on the other side of the fence.

To quote Joyce Meyer “You think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence? You will have to mow that lawn too.”
When you see a happy couple passing on the street, do not allow yourself to believe that they got lucky. If they are happy together it is because they are both making an effort to give what they know the other needs. 

So I say again, we are not entitled to a happy marriage. We earn it through loving, honoring, and cherishing ourselves and our spouse through good times and bad.


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## marksaysay (Oct 15, 2010)

One of the best posts I've seen in a while!!! It would seem that most divorces come as a result of this sense of entitlement. That's how most people seem to be hardwired these days. 

As a believer of every word of the bible and a firm believer in Christ, I get bothered when people tell I "deserve" better when I talk about my willingness to reconcile with my wayward wife who is still wayward. My reply is usually that the only thing I "deserve" is death due to my sinfulness but Christ died for that. Other than that, I just have to accept things as they come.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Marriage takes two.

But I generally agree with you though... there really were no dealbreakers for me, when I chose to marry I chose to take on whatever problems life threw at me and her as a married couple. Didn't even comprehend that it could have been corrupted from within.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I firmly and truly believe any marriage can be reconciled/recovered/worked on and restored/rebuilt, all that jazz. Unless of course there is abuse or something of that nature. 

The thing is: Most divorces are NOT mutual. That is a sad truth.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> The thing is: Most divorces are NOT mutual. That is a sad truth.


yeah, in my marriage if there was ever to be a divorce it was always going to be her to do so. Actually now I think of it, I'm the one that is technically filing, however the marriage is already over and it will most assuredly be uncontested, its just the paperwork that I'm left dealing with.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

RDJ said:


> I believe very much in the institution of marriage. By this I mean that marriage is an integral part of the human experience, and it is something that is worth fighting to save. This is not to say that I believe every marriage can be saved, or should be for that matter. It simply means that I do not believe that divorce solves problems. At best divorce allows you to walk away from some of your personal issues. At worst it simply postpones certain life lessons for a later date.


 That depends, there are so many people who marry way too fast, they sure didn't discuss their life goals, and it was NEVER meant to be. My Dad & Mom is such a case, the grass was plenty greener for him with my step Mom, match made in heaven itself -even if I didn't like the woman as a teen. My Mom married him for the wrong reasons too. It was more mutual - a rarity I suppose. 



> Even when my marriage was struggling most, divorce was not an option that I seriously considered. Many people have certain conditions on their marriage that they consider to be deal breakers. These deal breakers are essentially outcomes that a person considers to be so unacceptable that if they ever occurred, it would be time to end the marriage. It is almost as if we install these self-destruct buttons into our marriage and then tell our spouse that if they ever push this button, the whole thing goes BOOM.


 If the problems are for a time - a time frame we can handle personally (I think for some that may be longer than others), I agree with you, we shouldn't jump ship... we should FIGHT and give it everything in us, so we know we did our damnest to loving our spouse-doing our part, go to counseling, do the "Love Dare", communicate till it hurts, be vulnerable, put ourselves out there, whatever it takes .....

.......BUT if we are chronically beaten down- spanning over years , left to pick up the fallen peices alone, we find we have no compatability, we don't even enjoy each other, why in the world should that union stay together? I am not someone , like MarkSaySay that believes I deserve Death by my Creator, nor am I am masochist- I enjoy living in this world and partaking of True happiness in all of its beauty. I am not one willing to shut the doors on my own happiness. BUt I don't feel that makes me "entitled" either. I am willing to work hard for a common goal, but IF my spouse is not on board, it will lead to me jumping -eventually , more fish in that sea- absolutely. And why should I begrudge myself for that? 



> The problem, as I see it, is an attitude of entitlement. We believe that certain things are owed to us in marriage and that a person should “leave and/or divorce” if those conditions are not met. People feel that they are entitled to have their needs met. They feel that it is their spouse’s responsibility to provide all that they need form a relationship and not ask too much in return. They believe that it is their spouse’s responsibility to make them happy.


 Well this "attitude" is surely all wrong-even dangerous. If 2 hearts come at each other with this type of mindset, happiness will not be found, but merely expectation, and let down- a merry go round of such. 

When genuine love is there, you just won't THINK like this. Ever. You will be internallly compelled to forgive the arguments, to find common ground, to press forward, love the other -cause it brings you closer, it is Supposed to work like this. I don't feel I am entitled to anything, I wouldn't use that word --but I would use the word ...... TRUST (which is not faith -at least not to me, I find faith to be Blind many times and not wise at all) --but TRUST...OH Yes, we NEED that ! And it should be there and held like a delicate flower. And if more was very very careful, trust gets built over time, if couples do not allow for this time in getting to know their deeper selves before they marry ..... it could come back to haunt them -due to massive incompatabilities. Trust is also earned. 

...So when one spouse starts trampling on that TRUST, holding secrets, treating the other like dirt, it could be less than abuse and infidelity in my opinion. Sure we have fights and disagreements, we are human! But when the trust to love , honor and cherish has been slaughted one too many times, how can you say the grass in not greener somewhere else -if you are the Chronic Giver, and left empty. 





> Unfortunately, there is no training course that churns out expert spouses. You have to be willing to train on the job.
> This is true of every aspect of married life. You learn how to live together. You learn how to make love together... Even with something like raising our kids we have to grow into it. We make mistakes; we learn from them and move forward, we are tested time and time again. Sometimes we fail, but we do not hold it against ourselves or our children. There are no perfect parents, and there are no perfect children. Eventually we work through the mistakes, as painful as they may be. We persevere through the struggles and we are rewarded for our efforts through the simple joy of growth. We look back on all of the obstacles that our family has overcome and marvel at how we all grew through those times. It is not that we lucked out and found the perfect spouse, and then had the perfect kids, and thus a perfect life. We worked hard for every good thing that came to us, and that is what makes it special.


 and when you can look back and have a hearty laugh about it all, joking about how rediculous we were in the early years, all the more special it is. I think all humor would be lost if we were all perfect anyway. Boring infact. 




> When you use positive tactics, in the end, the reward is worth the effort.
> Marriage requires effort to be successful. The more that you put into a marriage, the better the chance of it succeeding. If both partners are only concerned with their own needs (i.e. what they will get out of this deal) then there is no one pumping positive energy into it, and the relationship will starve. You cannot draw water from an empty well.


 Yeah, but you have to be true to yourself also. If your needs are very differnt from his needs, one ends up just pacifying the other, going through the motions to keep peace, this is not answer either. It has to be in the heart. Vows are not enough. 



> Let go of the idea that love is a magical thing that happens when you find the right person. Believing in that delusion will have you always casting sideways glances to see if there is a better soul mate out there somewhere. You will not be fully invested in your current marriage if you think the grass may greener on the other side of the fence.


 I used to buy into the whole "soul mate" thing (always felt me & my husband were ) ....until I caught a Christian marraige Program on TV discussing this very topic.... how this belief can really trip you up....if things are going bad, and you start thinking you missed your soul mate in life. Although I don't agree with the Soul mate philosophy, I do believe in "compatability" being the greatest thing going for marraiges...... (having similar love languages, hopes, goals, dreams, similar ideas on child rearing, sex, genuinelly enjoying each other's company, having laughter in your marraige, ). If you have a few of these sinking like the Titanic, and our selfish natures rear their ugly head (which they will)....it is going to be an uphill battle, where it might not have been ...if we was with someone who truly appreciated our brand of humor, our love languages, shared the same goals & dreams. 


I am just not someone who would judge another for leaving if things were really too tough on them, if staying would reduce them to taking depression drugs or something. Some are stronger than others and can stick it out through the hell for years on end, but what does it due to thier outlook in life -if they will be left bitter? 

It will always take 2. If one is not on board, when we realize the hope is lost, Faith can be very misleading, many die waiting for a healing. How sad that is. I think life should be enjoyed , with someone who shares your brand of enjoyment. 

Not that I disagree with your words, I really don't...at least you said this...


> . This is not to say that I believe every marriage can be saved, or should be for that matter.


 Amen to that. 

I just am one who would leave over more than infidelity or abuse and I don't happen to think I am a bad person for admitting as such. Certain things would be real deal breakers for me. Thankfully I married well and it is not a concern, but I don't judge others who leave for lessor reasons than those 2, I've seen too much pain in marriages and people finding someone way more compatiable for themselves on the 2nd round, they are very happy to mow thier new lawns, while those old lawns were a curse to them. 

I just think we need to be more careful BEFORE we marry, and know each other inside and out.


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## RDJ (Jun 8, 2011)

Amorous,

Exellent counter pionts. I appriciate your taking the time to reply in depth.

There are two sides too every coin. You pointed that out very nicely.

*"I am just not someone who would judge another for leaving if things were really too tough on them."*

I don't believe for a second that you were insinuating that I was judging anyone, but just for the record, let me clarify my position.

I judge no one, we all have our own thresholds and boundries. I don't agree with divorcing until all has been tried first, but once that point has been reached, we have to do whats best for ourselves and each others happiness. Even if that means its a life with someone else.

Again, I sincerely appriciate your insightful wisdom and thanks for your reply.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

*Hmmm?*



marksaysay said:


> One of the best posts I've seen in a while!!! It would seem that most divorces come as a result of this sense of entitlement. That's how most people seem to be hardwired these days.
> 
> As a believer of every word of the bible and a firm believer in Christ, I get bothered when people tell I "deserve" better when I talk about my willingness to reconcile with my wayward wife who is still wayward. My reply is usually that the only thing I "deserve" is death due to my sinfulness but Christ died for that. Other than that, I just have to accept things as they come.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Hmmm...you don't think spouses deserve fidelity to each other?
Not crapping on your choice. Just interested in your perspective.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

RJD,
Under what conditions would you want one of your children to divorce:
- Physical abuse
- Drug or alcohol addiction
- Financial infidelity (like gambling the family into bankruptcy)
- Emotional infidelity
- Physical infidelity
- Overt emotional abuse
- Extreme emotional neglect (indifference to your needs and emotional well being)
- White collar crime
- Violent crime




RDJ said:


> I believe very much in the institution of marriage. By this I mean that marriage is an integral part of the human experience, and it is something that is worth fighting to save. This is not to say that I believe every marriage can be saved, or should be for that matter. It simply means that I do not believe that divorce solves problems. At best divorce allows you to walk away from some of your personal issues. At worst it simply postpones certain life lessons for a later date.
> 
> Even when my marriage was struggling most, divorce was not an option that I seriously considered. Many people have certain conditions on their marriage that they consider to be deal breakers. These deal breakers are essentially outcomes that a person considers to be so unacceptable that if they ever occurred, it would be time to end the marriage. It is almost as if we install these self-destruct buttons into our marriage and then tell our spouse that if they ever push this button, the whole thing goes BOOM.
> 
> ...


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## marksaysay (Oct 15, 2010)

Deserve may be too strong a word. Expect to me is more accurate. To deserve something again is a word that makes one think that something they've done is worthy of another. I, again, am speaking from a biblical perspective because I know that I have not been and will probably never be the perfect husband. 

When we made our vows, I expected fidelity and to be loved, honored, etc..but I'm not entitled or deserving of anything. Was I unfaithful? Not physically but I did watch porn. Does it justify my wife's infidelity? No! I'm just saying that based on what the bible teaches, no one DESERVES anything but eternal damnation because we all fall short of Gods standard if living. But his mercy means he gives us less than we deserve.

Did I get married thinking my wife would cheat and blame me for her actions or try to justify herself by trying to point out everything thing I've ever done wrong (real or perceived)? No! I expected a happy marriage with a few ups and downs. But I don't deserve anything. 

Why? Because I sin, too. That is not going to keep me from continuing to love her, though. Unconditionally loving someone means choosing to do so even when they don't DESERVE IT.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NoIssues (Oct 9, 2011)

I have three bugaboos I guess

1. I like the post for the most part but not the title. Id much rather see it as "unrealisic expectations" because ...

2. I think there are absolutely certain entitlements in marriage

In general, they are

A. For their spouse to do their best to understand their needs and expectations from marriage which include affection, loyalty, effort, dedication, etc

B. For their spouse to take action to meet those needs to the best of their ability and understanding

If you dont have those, fuggedabodit but ...

That is not to say a spouse is RESPONSIBLE for making their spose happy or to meet ALL of their needs. A spouse should be expected to add to happiness and to do their best to meet reasonable needs without all the holdout, punishment, score keeping, transactional, tit for tat nonsense that goes on with resentment. 

Sure narcissitic, unrealistic expectation spouses suck (or maybe not/haha), but insisting you are entitled to nothing in marriage from your spouse is missing the mark IMO.

My favorite point of the post is the part about there being no training for being a good psouse and that its all on the job training. 

3. I disagree everything is hard work. There is a lot in my marriage that is a piece of cake. My wife makes friends with nearly everyone she meets. I have a knack for business so we are comfortable. My daughter is a great kid. We all get along with each others inlaws. We laugh alot. There are many many others. None of them require what is described as work that soundslike being in a prison labor camp. If nothing came easy in marriage, the word would get out and no one would do it. Its not THAT bad. Jeepers.


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## RDJ (Jun 8, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> RJD,
> Under what conditions would you want one of your children to divorce:
> - Physical abuse
> - Drug or alcohol addiction
> ...


Hello Mem11363,


I have to say that you have peaked my curiosity. I can’t wait to see where you are going with this.

I would be sad to see my children divorce under any circumstances. As I said above, my thoughts are that couples should try every possible attempt to salvage their marriage before giving up. There are times when it’s too much for some. That line is a personal choice. I would express the same to my children, I would express my thoughts (just as I have done here) but the ultimate decision would be theirs, I would accept it and not judge anyone. To judge implies that we are better than another. I am better than no one. I am simply me, good and bad.

As for your list, I will share my own experience with you. I have committed the following things in my marriage.

- Physical abuse: I don’t abuse my wife, but one time when we were young, I slapped her. (Has never happened again in over 30 years of marriage) She has made the same mistake, twice.
- Financial infidelity: Again, when we were younger, I had a serious gambling problem. Not to bankruptcy, but certainly throwing away money that the family could have used.
- Overt emotional abuse: I also had many years of the angry man behavior towards my wife. In my eyes, it was not “overt” but it was in her eyes.
- Drug or alcohol addiction: Again, when I was younger, I did every drug I could get my hands on.
- White collar crime: Been there too.

OK I was not a very good person when I was younger.

As for my wife,

- Extreme emotional neglect (indifference to your needs and emotional wellbeing): After years of my behavior, she ended up feeling this way about me. (Can’t blame her, can I?)
- Drug or alcohol addiction: She has been, and still is, an alcoholic.
- Emotional infidelity: The crash of my marriage came with an EA from her. Along with the deceit, lies, and everything else that comes with it.
- Physical infidelity: Unsure, Don’t know if the EA went physical or not? (Although it would not matter)

- Violent crime: Alright! At least there is one we have not committed.:smthumbup:

What’s the point of all of this? Any of these could have been “deal breakers”. In all honesty, I considered several too be, until they actually happened. Then I had to evaluate their true importance to me. My wife or I had plenty of “reasons” to divorce. But we did not; we worked through even the most devastating of circumstances, we chose to forgive, forget, and grow from our experiences. And in the end, we have a stronger, better relationship for it. Are things perfect? NO! There is no such thing as perfect people. But we are always moving forward, we have just as many good things in our life together, things that we would have missed had we just given up and divorced. For example: As I said, we are happier now than at any point in our marriage. We have two awesome children and three even more awesome grandchildren that bring pleasure and joy to our lives. We would not have experienced this TOGATHER if we were divorced at several stages of our life.

Is this for every one? I doubt it, but if you can make it work, it just might be worth the trip. It was for us.

With all that being said, with all due respect, I am anxious to hear what you have to say?


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## RDJ (Jun 8, 2011)

NoIssues said:


> A. For their spouse to do their best to understand their needs and expectations from marriage which include affection, loyalty, effort, dedication, etc
> 
> B. For their spouse to take action to meet those needs to the best of their ability and understanding


I have to disagree, these are not entitlements. They are hopes, expectations, or wants. We may want them, but I'm not convinced that we are entitled to them. Just my opinion though.



> I disagree everything is hard work. There is a lot in my marriage that is a piece of cake. My wife makes friends with nearly everyone she meets. I have a knack for business so we are comfortable. My daughter is a great kid. We all get along with each others inlaws. We laugh alot. There are many many others. None of them require what is described as work that soundslike being in a prison labor camp. If nothing came easy in marriage, the word would get out and no one would do it. Its not THAT bad. Jeepers.


I'll give you this one. I'm pretty new to writing, I could have done a better job here. Maybe "It can be hard work if we let it be" Would have been a better expression. 

I'll try to chose my words "more better":whip: (just kidding)


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Wow,
Let me start from the top. 
Hats off to you for incredible commitment. I mean that with total sincerity. 

And very happy your children turned out well. 

As for us:
- I pushed my W once - pushed her onto the bed. Not being a smart aleck here. I was over the top angry and pushed her. She didn't like it. I felt very bad and promised never to touch her in anger again. 20+ years later promise is intact. 
- I drank to much our first 2-3 years of marriage. Didn't miss work. Didn't crash car / get DUI. Wasn't a mean drunk - actually a more low key/playful/happy drunk. Still - not the best. 
- Drugs - lets just say I experimented my fair share
- Emotional abuse: I was explosively angry every once in a while. 
- Crime - no and nope
- Financial stuff was all good
- Tension over sex - mismatched drives - worked through it
- Conflict over being slowly deprioritized - fixed that by mirroring the behavior
- She sort of fell for a guy who worked for her. Went to her priest. He told her the church needs strong marriages. For about a year she brought home all that desire for him and saturated me with it. I finally asked her if they ever kissed. She said no. I beleive her. 

Love my W. She is the best. 





RDJ said:


> Hello Mem11363,
> 
> 
> I have to say that you have peaked my curiosity. I can’t wait to see where you are going with this.
> ...


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## NoIssues (Oct 9, 2011)

RDJ said:


> I have to disagree, these are not entitlements. They are hopes, expectations, or wants. We may want them, but I'm not convinced that we are entitled to them. Just my opinion though.


I googled sample wedding vows and read several and remembered your parnership example. 

I think promises are made to induce another to consider them something which can be expected to be relied upon, inducing another to make a decision based on promises made creates entitlement. 

I am a contractor. When I promise (by verbal or written contract) to remodel your bathroom and you promise to pay me for it, you are entitled to a new bathroom and I am entitled to your payment. 

I hope, expect and want that to work. If it doesnt we may find ourselves in front of our friendly local judge man that will determine oneof us did not get what we were entitled to. 

Its a minor point I suppose but I have insomnia and a newbatch of chocolate chip cookies and enjoy bantering with you. :rofl:


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## RDJ (Jun 8, 2011)

NoIssues said:


> Its a minor point I suppose but I have insomnia and a newbatch of chocolate chip cookies and enjoy bantering with you. :rofl:


Right back at ya! 

Whats that old saying "we'll agree to disagree"

MMMMMM! cookies.


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## RDJ (Jun 8, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Wow,
> Let me start from the top.
> Hats off to you for incredible commitment. I mean that with total sincerity.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your kind words Mem, I'm glad things turned out well for you too.

Not sure how the kids turned out so well? Divine intervention I guess. It's sounds bad, but over a thirty year span, there were more good times than bad. That helps!

So, what was your original point in your question? Did I miss it?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

RDJ said:


> I would express my thoughts (just as I have done here) but the ultimate decision would be theirs, I would accept it and not judge anyone. To judge implies that we are better than another. I am better than no one. I am simply me, good and bad.


 Well this IS good, but I don't think alot of people look at others situations like this at all. If a man leaves a woman over a sexless marriage (sex less than 10 times a year- while there is nothing wrong with her, she just has an aversion to it) ...or a woman while her husband is so porn addicted he has no use to be intimate with her, I feel he/she has ever right in this world to leave-divorce , run & never look back. Neither signed up for that, and why should they stay-after years of suffereing. BUt many would judge them -especially the men !!! MANY MANY MANY . So long as she didn't screw around on him, he should stay . Completely rediculous in my opinion. Just 1 example. 


I have a friend who , he has never physically abused her-never cheated on her, but she comes to visit me crying, she is a Christian (so is he , what a joke) he treats her like dirt, been to thier house on numerous occassions seeing how COLD and uncaring he is when she even tries to talk to him -- he will not even look up at her face -won't even answer her -but ignore her. And that is while friends are there, how does he act when noone is there! 

Why does she stay this man..... because of her FAITH. Because she believes he will change. Been this way for over 8 yrs of their marraige. SHe "jokes" all the time, I know it is a cover up the pain. She is hurt every day, she pretty much lives for her daughters and her friends & he is more a room mate. She writes little songs about the LOve of Jesus & sings them merrily everwhere she goes, she says it is to bless people, but all who know her -knows it is to bless herself, helping her get through another day. 

Friends have stopped talking to her because they get tired of hearing her troubles, she is always in need of $$, he gives her barely anything, takes the car from her. I have given her food. I Have helped her out many times, she even has a nursing degree but he won't allow her to work. Always under his thumb. But I remain, I listen, I think she is NUTS for staying with this man, but whatever. IT would be a cold day in hell I would put up with a man half as bad as him. 
She DESERVES better. 



> - Physical abuse: I don’t abuse my wife, but one time when we were young, I slapped her. (Has never happened again in over 30 years of marriage) She has made the same mistake, twice.
> - Financial infidelity: Again, when we were younger, I had a serious gambling problem. Not to bankruptcy, but certainly throwing away money that the family could have used.
> - Overt emotional abuse: I also had many years of the angry man behavior towards my wife. In my eyes, it was not “overt” but it was in her eyes.
> - Drug or alcohol addiction: Again, when I was younger, I did every drug I could get my hands on.
> ...


 I appreciate you stuck it out through thick & thin, and this is sh** load of dysfunction listed here -on both your ends. I feel strongly you both had MORE mercy on each other BECAUSE of your own dysfunctions, this is what I see at play here. I don't feel this is the norm in most marriages though. These are extreme examples -that you have overcome, and many would not stay in such marriages. YOu and she will just have a GREATER success story to share when it all has been overcome. 

I can give an illustration about this... .. ..... THe MERCY factor......My step father was a severe alcoholic (he is gone now), Personally I had no patience with the man at all - once when drinking & he was acting up - I knocked him down he ticked me off just a little too much. BUt this man had a TRUE heart of gold for other people and thier dysfunctions- because he KNEW HE WAS A MESS...... It literally gave him MORE compassion on others. ANd this does MAKE sense when you think about it. 

.... He used to take people in off the streets (they did not live in my state but I heard the stories) , prostitutes, let them stay with them, he has been robbed beaten up countless times. He used to Cook THanksgiving Dinner for the Bar next door, one time he allowed this man -who killed someone in his early years & was in Prison to STAY and live with them. My mother had a rough life while married to him. ONce she came home and he had been Beat up, blood dripping off his face, and he told her not to be mad at him (this ex con!) to forgive him. 

Can you imagine! The man had LOVE that far exceeded the norm for those who SCREW up --why.....because when he was younger, he was driving drunk, and his best friend, his cousin (who had children) was KILLED in that car accident -he was never able to forgive himself, even 30 yrs after the incident, he would CRY talking about it, -He would always say it should have been him who died, not his best friend, he felt he destroyed a family. THis is also what kept him DRUNK- to numb the pain. My mother stayed with him till his death. She saw more Love in this man than she EVER did in the church. And I have to agree with her. WHen I hear that old song "He's my brother" sung by the Hollies, I immediately think of him -that is how he felt -everyone was "his brother" & can not help but tear up, some of her stories are just --amazing acts of love & kindness where the worst of men did not deserve it. 

What allowed my mother to stay... She felt she was unworthy Too! 

Did she have a good life --HELL NO! SHe is messed up today because of the stuff she has lived through. 

When I was younger, I learned WELL what NOT to do in life because of my Mothers example, she cared far too little for herself . There is no way in H I would stay with an alcoholic, I would not enable that lifestyle. I seen the damage 1st hand. How they were so poor, she couldn't get health care, I never knew if she would even be alive the next day given who was living with them. She has beaten men up to keep herself from harm. NO, I EXPECT certain behaviors from my spouse, because I have kept myself clean in certain areas. If that makes sense.

Sure, NONE Of us are perfect, but what I just described is NOT the normal marriage dynamic what so ever. God Bless my MOM for loving through that. BUt it took one H of a mental toll on her well being, believe me. I only wish she cared about her self MORE that she lived a normal life with a normal man and had a normal lifestyle. 

But yes, her choices all the way.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Hmmm interesting, guess that's one strength in our marriage that I never thought about, everything is about two people working together, not simply because "ok, now you're my hubby/wifey, you have to do this, do that" etc.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Speaking of "*Deal Breakers*", another poster did a thread on this subject probably over a year ago now .... and it would be interesting to know.... My personal LIST was longer than anyone who responded to that thread (now deleted by it's author). 

When I got together with my boyfriend, he did 2 things I didn't like and I KNEW they would NEVER sit well with me- he smoked and he gambled with his dad. I told him from the very beginning ......it was the cigarettes or ME (I can't see wasting $$, destroying your lungs & smelling like an ashtry to have any value whatsoever), I know me and I would have b****ed & nagged him to stop , so best to not put him through that. He happily quit immediately, I do not even recall ever seeing him with a cigarette now. But he did smoke before me. 

And although I would not marry a true addicted gambler- I didn't see his dad in that light, so I don't think my husband was headed down that road either. I was curious to see the Horse Races at least once & the Dog races , so he took me and it was kinda fun, we almost won $800 if he would have gotten to the counter on time with our play. As we started going out, those outings with his dad became less and less, he truly put me #1.

But had he been addicted to that, I would have been out of there in a heartbeat. I have always looked at other peoples lives, marraiges, observed , compared. My AUnt's husband was a gambler, they never had $$ for anything. Today she is a religious fanatic and him an alcoholic, they live as roommates pretty much putting on a nice show when others are around. I think he needed the alcohol cause she was on him so much about going to hell, eventually he just starter to agree with her. 

Some Deal breakers I have may not be what others have, and some things others have may not be what I have. To each his own. 

See I believe I could forgive an infidelity (if in a weak moment if I was not giving him what he needed-I would feel I had a hand in that) before I could forgive a sexless marriage -that he wanted porn over me, etc. The infidelity would all depend on the *WHY *it happened for me -was I neglecting his needs, was he suffering -fell into a weak moment of lust -but owed up to it - that would be the more easy to forgive. Sexless marraige, NEVER , no grass would grow under my feet. 

I could forgive Fighting behavior, hurtful words in the heat of the moment before I could forgive Silent Treatment behavior. I do not hold words against people if they are truly sorry and have made an effort to express this & make reconciliation. 

I could forgive & work with a smotheringly affectionate man -NICE guy in overdrive -before I could forgive being married to a Work aholic who never had time for me, or wanted to pacify me with gifts to make up for his absence. 

I could easily live with a man's looking at porn, enjoying strippers, noticing women on the beach - so long as he has genuine wanting DESIRE for me & I come before those entertainments -but I could never forgive or would stay with a man staying with me JUST for vows, where his heart is elsewhere, he has lost attraction to me. Faithful but miserable is not worth a hill of beans to me. 

I could easily deal with some wayward thoughts, emotions, honesty at every turn, expressing our more base desires with one another but I would never stay with someone who would judge me, berate me cause I was not of the same strict beliefs as them, a holier than thou attitude, this would get so old so fast. I like being human, and being fallable is not worthy of death to me. It is an opportunity to learn & grow. 

I could also live with a man who doesn't make alot of $$- so long as he possesses an excellent "work ethic"- respectable in his JOB. I am not a high maintenence women in this area, I know how to live on little. I also will help dig ditches, put on roofs, lay cement, put windows in, help build things, do body work, anything to save a buck -we work together. BUt I would NOT be able to live with a man who wasted his money , was too lazy to do his own home projects when he couldn't afford to pay someone else & got us into piling debt, this would cause endless fights , I would likely leave a marrage over things like that. 

If my husband gained 100 lbs, I would loose desire for him, he feels the same about me. Deal breakers, I don't know, monkey wrench into our sex life - to the highest degree! If you care about your spouse, take care of your body. If it is important to them, it should be important to you. That is the bottom line. 

I do expect alot and I feel my husband has every right to expect certain behaviors from me as well. As a SAHM....to cook for our family, to keep the house clean, me keep him sexually satisfied- and keep the weight off so his desire is flourishing, not waste his $$, and have a decent attitude when he walks through that door every day. Anything less, he has every right to be upset, and I wouldn't blame him a bit! 

If both people in the marriage will look at their own Role and do our part , making it as pleasant a ride as possible for the other, it only heeps rewards on the whole family. 

I am someone who wants to be happy - I would not settle for less. We get off tract, we need to get back on, or we are willingly risking our relationship with each other.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> RJD,
> Under what conditions would you want one of your children to divorce:
> - Physical abuse
> - Drug or alcohol addiction
> ...


Crime that results in a jail sentence, running from the cops, having warrants for your arrest, selling drugs or stolen property from the family home, possessing stolen property, running a fraudulent mail order business from the home, being shot at, ...


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## mr.rightaway (Apr 27, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I just am one who would leave over more than infidelity or abuse and I don't happen to think I am a bad person for admitting as such. Certain things would be real deal breakers for me. Thankfully I married well and it is not a concern, but I don't judge others who leave for lessor reasons than those 2, I've seen too much pain in marriages and people finding someone way more compatiable for themselves on the 2nd round, they are very happy to mow thier new lawns, while those old lawns were a curse to them.


I have read your posts and I won't re-quote everything you have written. While some things you say seem reasonable, at face value, your reasoning seems somewhat disjointed, at least to me. I made similar points in the feminism thread but I will say a few things here. I am of the mind that anyone over the age of 25, and especially 30, is pretty much going to be fully developed in their outlook on life, so this type of discussion may be a mute point. After reading your postings I am fairly unclear as to what exactly you want from a relationship. It seems that you will leave on a dime when the situation no longer lives up to your expectations and/or demands. You "deserve" better. Almost like looking for an issue to leave and then feel relieved and comforted by leaving, feeling justified that you had known all along that it wasn't going to work out in the end. When does this line of thinking crossover into selfishness and entitlement, and eventually into resentment?

Marriage is about sacrifice and service to the other and more to RDJ's points, "You would not expect a business partner to do whatever you wanted simply because you have expectations that you think should be met." Nor should you check out emotionally over hangnail issues--or "deal-breakers"--that really aren't that big of a deal. Perhaps your views do come from your upbringing, seeing things in others' situations and I can certainly understand that. Again, it doesn't mean to just blindly accept consistent abuse(s), but we also shouldn't go looking for problems that aren't really there and building resentment off of ghost issues.

It certainly is an interesting argument between what type of behavior someone "deserves" or is "entitled to" in a relationship versus what the realities are; being realistic about the nature of people and not expecting perfection and so on. So how much is too much, and how much is too little?


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

MArk - interesting thread title... my point of view on this is... no one is entitled to anything in life... we are not given a guarentee in any way shape or form. Life comes to us and we either adapt, resist, or check out. 

As to expectations, sure... those are always on the table, but again, there are never any guarentees with those either. Life changes, people change, circumstances change... it is our understanding through this journey that determines our next course of action.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

mr.rightaway said:


> After reading your postings I am fairly unclear as to what exactly you want from a relationship. It seems that you will leave on a dime when the situation no longer lives up to your expectations and/or demands. You "deserve" better. Almost like looking for an issue to leave and then feel relieved and comforted by leaving, feeling justified that you had known all along that it wasn't going to work out in the end. When does this line of thinking crossover into selfishness and entitlement, and eventually into resentment?


 I do not look at myself in the way you are painting me, and dare I say, neither would my husband. We have a very fullfilling marraige -in every aspect. If this forum has done anything for me, it has opened my eyes to realize just how PRECIOUS of a man I have sitting at home with me, even though he is one of the Betas, not the confident Alpha male that most women chase after. He is truly one in a million, and he says the same about me. I know what *compatabilty *IS in a marraige, what it can do for you and your outlook in life and love. I was a bit dysfunctional when we met, he put up with me, he showed me what real love is, you think I would trample that ? 

I would climb a mountain for him. 


My marriage aside....I do take issue with the "*UNCONDITIONAL LOVE*" aspect of relationships...people seem to be divided on this issue. 


Read these articles - do you have a counter ?

What's Wrong with Unconditional Love (Part 1)

Is Unconditional Love Possible - Conditions And Love






> Marriage is about sacrifice and service to the other and more to
> RDJ's points, "You would not expect a business partner to do whatever you wanted simply because you have expectations that you think should be met."


 Of coarse there is some sacrifice in marraige -for the other. I love being married. I am all for doing my part and then some. I live to make my husband happy, he is a part of me, it IS an attitude as well. Our spouses KNOW when our hearts are not into it. Living with that would be Hell in the 2nd degree. I would take no joy at all in *FORCING *my husband to do anything for me. This would be completely counter productive, against love given freely because you feel it. 





> Nor should you check out emotionally over hangnail issues--or "deal-breakers"--that really aren't that big of a deal.


 what have I said -that you consider a "Hang nail" issue ? 




> Perhaps your views do come from your upbringing, seeing things in others' situations and I can certainly understand that. Again, it doesn't mean to just blindly accept consistent abuse(s), but we also shouldn't go looking for problems that aren't really there and building resentment off of ghost issues.


I am sure growing up & seeing the many mistakes my mother has made in love had a HUGE impact on me. How could it not, when often I felt more like the Mother, persuading her to get out, do better for herself. 

I have never held resentment in my heart for my husband, not a day. But that says as much or more about HIM than it does about me. 



> It certainly is an interesting argument between what type of behavior someone "deserves" or is "entitled to" in a relationship versus what the realities are; being realistic about the nature of people and not expecting perfection and so on. So how much is too much, and how much is too little?


If you have read enough of my postings, you will gleem I LOVE the HUMBLE blatently honest SOUL - who can admit to his own faults, that gives you something to work with. Do you realize how FEW seem to be able to do this in life? We like to blame everyone else -it makes us feel better. No, I have no issue with saying, in certain areas ......I can be a little selfish and I want what I want. The more honest soul will do this. Others will put on a nice face, smile, and secretly hurt their spouses behind thier backs-never say a word & seeth with hidden resentment day to day - are they any less selfish than me I ask? Just cause they can't really show WHO they are -at their core. 

People who are "perfect" are not the type I would even want in my life. I am not perfect, nor do I even care to be that damn good. So I think you got me all wrong here. 

You ask how much is too much, how much is too little......


If resentment is eating you up on the inside while you have been the Chronic Giver, the more sacrificial (& have evaluated yourself in the correct light of coarse,others are telling you to get out ) -while your partner has refused to go to counseling, get the help that could give your marraige WINGS again, if you have to resort to taking depression drugs because your spouse is that uncaring, you NEED and should get out, find someone else who will appreciate you & love you for all that you so desire to give. Life is too short.


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## mr.rightaway (Apr 27, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I do not look at myself in the way you are painting me, and dare I say, neither would my husband. I am very very happy in my marraige. If this forum has done anything for me, it has opened my eyes to realize just how PRECIOUS of a man I have sitting at home with me, even though he is one of the Betas, not the confident Alpha male that most women lust after. He is truly one in a million, he says the same about me. I know what *compatabilty *IS in a marraige, what it can do for you and your outlook in life and love. I was a bit dysfunctional when we met, he put up with me, he showed me what real love is, you think I would trample that ?


Understood.



> My marriage aside....I do take issue with the "*UNCONDITIONAL LOVE*" aspect of relationships...people seem to be divided on this issue.


I don't believe in unconditional love either. 





> Of coarse there is some sacrifice in marraige -for the other. I love being married. I am all for doing my part and then some. I live to make my husband happy, he is a part of me, it IS an attitude as well. Our spouses KNOW when our hearts are not into it. Living with that would be Hell in the 2nd degree. I would take no joy at all in *FORCING *my husband to do anything for me. This would be completely counter productive, against love given freely because you feel it.


I am not trying to paint you into a corner or anything like that. At the same time, for me personally I don't believe that either person should make the other jump through hoops or meet certain expectations...or else "you're out of there in a heartbeat." Or continually move the goal posts of expectations for reasons that I may not even understand. I'm a live and let live kind of guy, no doubt on that. All for letting people make whatever choices they desire. I take issue with people getting married when they know their viewpoint is, "Well, if it doesn't work out or goes south, I can just divorce." The reap the benefits of marriage until it is no longer beneficial and this dilutes the institution of marriage, and also the strength that can be found in going through hard times in a partnership, and coming out ahead.



> If you have read enough of my postings, you will gleem I LOVE the HUMBLE blatently honest SOUL - who can admit to his own faults, that gives you something to work with. Do you realize how FEW seem to be able to do this in life? We like to blame everyone else -it makes us feel better. No, I have no issue with saying, in certain areas ......I can be a little selfish and I want what I want. The more honest soul will do this. The others will put on a nice face, smile, and secretly hurt their spouses hehind thier backs, or seeth with hidden resentment day to day - are they any less selfish than me I ask? Just cause they can't really show WHO they are -at their core.


I'm not making a judgment about your personal situation, but rather taking some of what you're saying and looking at the larger issue of the entitlement attitude. IMO, it just seems that your SO has to be the way you want him to be or you're gone, or would be gone. Again, all for it, but the discussion is of entitlement. I just feel that if we look at a relationship as a whole and how you can get out if things go south, or "what's in it for me?" I don't think those individuals should get married and be able to enjoy the legal benefits. I care about being socially responsible so I don't see merit in me spouting all my views onto someone. If I have been guilty in the past of this I stay conscious of it and try not to do it. There is such a thing as being too honest and even if I just want to say whatever I want I still consider the fact of how the other person is going to feel. There is a difference between this and being fake. I don't feel I "deserve" a thing in life. Just like respect, it needs to be earned. I'm not entitled to anything I have not earned. I have had women I work with flippantly say to me, "...I'll just leave [my husband]." I also asked a man why he married his wife in the first place (they divorced). He said, "Well, I knew I could just get a divorce." He is currently mowing grass in a different zip code. It goes both ways.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

mr.rightaway said:


> Or continually move the goal posts of expectations for reasons that I may not even understand.


 Let me say this about myself, we dated for 8 long years... (I have been with my husband since I was 15, I am going on 45)..... by then, I KNEW what I was marrying-I KNEW his heart, his soul, all his dreams, all his weaknesses, his strengths. 

He KNEW what he was marrying, along with MY weaknesses, MY dreams, what I could handle, what I could not. He fully accepted me the way I was- as I did him. NO blinders were on our eyes. 

All of my dreams , goals, expectations remained steadfast, I am NOT one to move any goal posts AFTER THE FACT. I am not this type of woman....but at the same token.... I TRUSTED (this is a better term than EXPECTED) his love for me to remain as it has been in those 8 previous years -with new challenges of coarse. He gave me that. Never let me down. Did I let him down, yeah I did in some ways, I even ended up taking him for granted for a time. I have some regrets. Believe me when I say, he was too passive about it. 

BUT before marraige, you better believe I would weed them out -realizing this would NOT work for me, That would NOT work for me. If I had any inkling from observation that he might fall into addictions that could wreck our marriage, I would not have stayed with him. Absolutely . That is wisdom. I know there are certain things I could not handle. Why throw myself in a possible lion's den?

How many people really know themselves, evaluate themselves -look deep into their own psyches, I have been doing that my whole life - a little too much - why I had such a problem with religion, always judging myself. Believe me, I look deep within to see the gile in myself before I point the finger at someone else. My husband tells me I am too hard on myself sometimes. 

So if some of those things I would NOT have accepted before I married, cropped up after the wedding. Why should I not be up in arms about it ? After all, who has changed the "goal posts" then? And he had every right to *TRUST *I was going to remain a similar woman, faithful and true, honest in all things.

We had one thing thrown at us that was very difficult for me, INFERTILITY after our 1st son, lasted 6 long years, I was distraught over this -as I deeply desired a larger family (I would not have married a man who didn't want that) . He loved & supported me through it all. Did I threaten to leave him because he couldn't afford Invitro ? of coarse not! 
We struggled along togehter, no blame on either side, we made the best of it. '

The way I look at this is ....if either one of us got off the beaten trail, down the road of addictions, crime, sexlessness - whatever, those things that can DESTRUCT and maime an otherwise decent relationship.....we would be having a long talk and either choosing to put *US *back at the forfront as it was , OR there is a risk We would loose it all. Does my husband care a rats ass that I feel like this --NO! he is not a drinker, he is not a porn addict, he is not any of those very undesirable things that I have issues with, so he hasn't really a care in this world that I am going to take off on him. He is happpy my standards were high back then, otherwise I would have likely been with another guy. I also wanted a man willing to wait to have intercoarse with me, he was the only one left standing. 



> I take issue with people getting married when they know their viewpoint is, "Well, if it doesn't work out or goes south, I can just divorce." The reap the benefits of marriage until it is no longer beneficial and this dilutes the institution of marriage, and also the strength that can be found in going through hard times in a partnership, and coming out ahead.


 I never held such an attitude, I never entered marraige lighty like that. I counted the cost. . For me, it was for LIFE, but again, I *trusted *him to remain the man I knew and loved. It is all about that LOVE, HONOR and TRUST thing again. 





> I'm not making a judgment about your personal situation


 Even if you was, that is fine, I like to haggle & reply - getting into deep discussions like this makes me THINK . I have changed my viewpoint on things before. It can & will happen again. 



> but the discussion is of entitlement. I just feel that if we look at a relationship as a whole and how you can get out if things go south, or "what's in it for me?" I don't think those individuals should get married and be able to enjoy the legal benefits.


 This attitude you paint here, I 100% agree with you, you have NO idea! Listen, if I hurt my husband, and him being the good man he is, If I was some entitlement princess where -for example He couldn't support my lavish lifestyle all of a sudden-lost his job, and I wanted to bail, I wouldn't deserve a living DIME from the man. I would have to pick up the reigns, get myself a job, maybe 2 to support us , whatever, I believe you need to be there for your spouse when the chips are down -but you gotta work with me. YOu got to give me something to go on. Not indifference at every turn...that is where I would draw the line. 

I am not for leaving over hang nail issues. I am hardly a princess, incase you missed some of the things I have said, I help my husband lay cement, dig ditches, put on roofs, I am there with him in the grime, thick & thin. 



> I care about being socially responsible so I don't see merit in me spouting all my views onto someone. If I have been guilty in the past of this I stay conscious of it and try not to do it. There is such a thing as being too honest and even if I just want to say whatever I want I still consider the fact of how the other person is going to feel. There is a difference between this and being fake.


 We should be socially responsible, of coarse.

I was just meaning with my husband I do not hide who I am, I am not passive aggressive, I do not keep secrets, that was my meaning in my last post. I let him know how I feel, what I love, what I need, what I love about him, what is bothering me, troubling me, I express it all, believe me the heavenly certainly outweighs the bad.....

See here is a perfect example, that is WHO I AM, it is a part of my personality with somene I love & cherish. I bare it all, my soul, the good, the bad, the ugly. Someone like you might find ME a pain in the a** -- but does my husband ? NO ! he has told me it is one of the things that he apprecaites about me the most, he WANTS that, it is one of the reasons he trusts me so much. I also would have problems with a man who held secrets from me, I wouldn't like it one bit. For me, that would be a "holding back" of who he is. 



> I don't feel I "deserve" a thing in life. Just like respect, it needs to be earned. I'm not entitled to anything I have not earned.


 I would agree with you!! I believe I said this on this very thread infact. Or maybe I was talking about *TRUST being earned. *My husband earned Mine, I earned His. We trust we will walk this path togehter hand in hand, within our control of coarse, to keep each other happy. Of coarse SH** happens sometimes, tragedy befalls.... BUT ....

There is a very BIG difference in YOU causing a Drunk Driving accident in comparison to being the VICTIM hit by a Drunk Driver. Our choices spell our destiny and can make or break our relationships. 





> I have had women I work with flippantly say to me, "...I'll just leave [my husband]."


 And I take it -these are over those hair nail issues. I would not consider my issues hairnail at all. I am also very far from a feminist, I am infact very old fashioned at heart. 

Enjoying this little debate!


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## RDJ (Jun 8, 2011)

To me, It no longer makes sense to draw hard lines in the sand.

For most of my life I was insistant that if my wife ever had an affair, we were done, it was the motherload of "dealbreakers", there was no way I could be with a woman that cheated on me.

When I was younger, I'm sure I would have walked out the door. But then it happened, she had an EA. I'm 50 years old, we have been married for 30 years, there is history, family, and I now have to look at why she would have done this?

I have to take responsibility for my own actions and behaviors over the years. Is what she did right? Hell NO! But was my angry man treatment along with many other issues of mine right to her? Hell NO! Did I reap what I sowed? Did she divorce me when she was being emotionally crapped on? What kind of man am I if I cant find compassion, understanding, and forgiveness ater years of my own issues?

Where is the hard line in the sand now? 

Not to say that something cannot come up that we will still divorce. If it does, it does. We just have to evaluate as things come up? As I said, I will just be sure that we have done all that we can do before we ever decide to divorce.

I stopped my behaviors and changed. She stopped her behaviors and changed. We have a few issues to still deal with, but we are happy most of the time, we are moving forward to a better future.

Things happen, things change, people change???

Unconditional love? I can love my wife unconditionally and vice versa, but that does not mean that we can live with each other. That is a choice. I love my mother unconditionally, there is no way in hell I will ever live/spend my life with her.

That make sense to anyone???


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

RDJ said:


> To me, It no longer makes sense to draw hard lines in the sand.
> 
> For most of my life I was insistant that if my wife ever had an affair, we were done, it was the motherload of "dealbreakers", there was no way I could be with a woman that cheated on me.
> 
> ...


Absolutely!

I'm sure your enllightenment brings you great peace of mind and a newfound freedom of spirit and soul. 

God Bless...


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I feel I've tolerated too much to bend my own rules at this point. If she wants to get 99.999999% everything her way and then step out and justify it by claim she's downtrodden, there's the door.....

You need to have edges and borders in life. And if you break them or bend them or decide 'oh well just this time...' then you might as well splash around in complete anarchy because that's where you're headed. There's a huge bag of disappointment I've put up with and it's been crystal clear that if she ever stepped out, it would be over that instant. Forever. It would be over so fast the paint on the U-Haul would be scorched. That's the edge, the border. I don't think that's unreasonable, unfair or egregious. Anything else we can debate and wonder about. But not that. Not after being turned down for years and years and years. Sorry.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

RDJ said:


> and I now have to look at why she would have done this?
> 
> I have to take responsibility for my own actions and behaviors over the years. Is what she did right? Hell NO! But was my angry man treatment along with many other issues of mine right to her? Hell NO! Did I reap what I sowed? Did she divorce me when she was being emotionally crapped on? What kind of man am I if I cant find compassion, understanding, and forgiveness ater years of my own issues?


 And I agree with you on this. Love your attitude. 

If we can't look at our own HAND in what we did or didn't do to emotionally hurt , maime, influence our spouse to come to such a desperate place because of the distance, not getting help sooner, we have missed the whole point. It is one of the things I am talking about...


Every line in the sand needs careful careful careful consideration for sure. At the end of the day, does it still not come down to love, does this person TRULY want to be with the other, does the other feel the same -- and determine to Fight for the marraige, or is he/she invested somewhere else, indifferent, uncaring, aloof , resentment laden with no care to overcome. That is not a workable environment for getting back to a good place. I guess some people's time frame in working that out -may be shorter than the next guys, that is all. 



> I stopped my behaviors and changed. She stopped her behaviors and changed. We have a few issues to still deal with, but we are happy most of the time, we are moving forward to a better future.


 God bless you both, the greater depths of despair, the more powerful the success story. 



> Things happen, things change, people change???


 I guess every marriage and couple is different, I don't think we changed too much in 22 yrs. He has remained the same since I met him, calm , cool, collected, loving and faithful. All I have done is ditched my religion and found more raging JOY in our sex life-which brought us even closer together, Other than that, we are nearly the same people. 

We set out with specific goals & dreams and kept ourselves busy accomplishing every one of them- now we have reached the top of the mountain...took a breathe, looked back, seen where we missed some things -it could have been better, if we were paying more attention, specifically ME, I was not smelling the roses & he didn't SHAKE ME. But reflection is good. 

It will soon be coming time to watch our children take flight with their lives, WE will be an afterthought, more about them, enriching their lives -setting them on a good path to their own healthy marraiges. 



> Unconditional love? I can love my wife unconditionally and vice versa, but that does not mean that we can live with each other. That is a choice. I love my mother unconditionally, there is no way in hell I will ever live/spend my life with her.


I think people have different meanings to what unconditional love means to them personally. It is easy to say we love all of our relatives for instance, but do we really? I do not even like some of mine, so I would never say I love them. I think the term love has been over used-abused even. 

But how do we show it to these people. If you mean by forgiving then when they hurt you, I am an unconditional lover too! I guess I see unconditional more than just "forgiving" another their threspasses, but to bring them back in the fold for deep abiding fellowship in every sense. 

How do you do that with someone you separate from? Love was NOT enough, conditions separeted you. I can see the one dumped saying it but not the one who decides to end it. I am not getting it.


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