# At my whits end...



## Hackle84

Me and my spouse have been together for 17 years. Married for almost 15. I’ve reached my wits end with her and really trying to see why I’m staying.

To start, We dated young and had a 2 year long distance relationship, while I was faithful I found after our 2nd year of marriage that she had dated her ex the whole time. Then when I came home we married within 3 months. The three months we dated I worried we rushed to fast. But we had talked about marriage to the point I felt obligated to get married I thought love will conquer it all.

I he first year was okay, then in year 2 we decided to try having kids. This really hurt us for the next 7 years as it turned sex into a chore. Trust me I never know any to hear the word ovulation schedule ever again. We lost all intimacy. This culminated in us splitting one weekend. I was devastated. I spent all weekend trying to deal with it. Then she asked me back and said “if I’m going to be with an A**hole i might as well be with the one I know”. I have never been able to forget that I felt settled for.

Shortly after a friend paid for us to do IVF and we had a beautiful set of twins. Our life’s we’re at its greatest for the next 6 months. Then she changed again to ignoring me. I mean like, don’t touch her, no hugs, kisses we’re literally wiped off her face after I kissed her. Sex was basically out the window.
Then 2 years ago i was out of town for work. I had asked her to come with me On the trip since she loves to trace and she didn’t want to, as I was going to spend a lot of time at work. I tried to show her t was a break for her to get away from her life for a week and give us a chance. She said no. I was sitting at dinner by myself and realized I was living in a one sided loveless marriage. As embarrassing as it is I sat there crying softly and thought how do I move on. When I got home I told her I that the ball was in her court. And if things didn’t change I was gone. Things got even worse, the criticism, the snarky comments, the fighting.

Then I experienced a very life threatening event recently that shook me up. I sat back and had a good thought about what I wanted in life. And I realized I just wanted to be happy, and be with someone who was happy to be with me. Someone who shares my pains, and my happiness. Someone I can somewhere in cuddles, and kisses and chill in the couch and hold each other after a long hard day. I told her I was not in love anymore and hadn’t been for 2 years. Now that I’m done she says she wants me. But it’s so much overwhelming in “i love yous” that it just feels reactionary and fake. She told me she never thought I would ever leave her so she quit trying since I was a safe option. 

I don’t see myself staying and I really at this point want out. I’m super frustrated that I have no feeling for her anymore. I said I would try counseling but I fee it’s more for her to learn to move on.
Please feel free to ask I know this is a really condensed view of a 15 year marriage and there’s probably more I’ve left out.


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## Spicy

Do you have your eye on someone new?


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## Andy1001

So she’s cheated on you, emasculated you for years and made it clear that she thinks you’re an asshole and when you finally have enough she discovered that she really loves you. 
And you’re having doubts about your decision too leave?
Dude.........ffs.


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## Hackle84

I don’t have someone new, I simple believe I can find someone


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## Hackle84

Andy1001 said:


> So she’s cheated on you, emasculated you for years and made it clear that she thinks you’re an asshole and when you finally have enough she discovered that she really loves you.
> And you’re having doubts about your decision too leave?
> Dude.........ffs.


I’m a very stubborn person that once I say I’m goi got do something I stick it out. Not that that’s any reason to stay.


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## Andy1001

Hackle84 said:


> I’m a very stubborn person that once I say I’m goi got do something I stick it out. Not that that’s any reason to stay.


Einstein’s definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.


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## Hackle84

Andy1001 said:


> Einstein’s definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.


Agreed, that hits it on the head certainly. My stubbornness have gotten me in a pinch a time or two in various other things


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## bobert

Hackle84 said:


> I said I would try counseling but I fee it’s more for her to learn to move on.


Personally, I think you should talk with a MC and IC before deciding to divorce. Divorce isn't something that should be taken lightly, especially when there are kids involved. One day you may want to know that you did everything you could.


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## Andy1001

Hackle84 said:


> Agreed, that hits it on the head certainly. My stubbornness have gotten me in a pinch a time or two in various other things


Read up on sunk cost fallacy, it will help you understand the feelings you have about walking away from a fifteen year relationship.


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## Hackle84

bobert said:


> Personally, I think you should talk with a MC and IC before deciding to divorce. Divorce isn't something that should be taken lightly, especially when there are kids involved. One day you may want to know that you did everything you could.


i agree on going to counseling, but i know this girl to well, shes very good at saying everything you want to hear. She is a bit of a manipulator, always reaches out and plays the guilt trips later. So that’s why I say going to therapy for her to feel better. Forgive my ignorance what is an IC?


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## Lila

I agree with @bobert's advice. Divorce should not be taken lightly, even more so when there are young (age 5?) children involved.

It takes two people to fix a marriage. You're doing the right thing by communicating your unhappiness and recommending marriage counseling. Give it one last shot to save the marriage. A good marriage counselor will be able to advise you on ways to reconnect with each other. A good marriage counselor will also tell you two are too far gone to save the marriage. Whatever you do, do not get involved with someone else to fill the void. Divorce your wife guilt-free knowing that you did all you could to save the marriage.


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## Hackle84

Andy1001 said:


> Read up on sunk cost fallacy, it will help you understand the feelings you have about walking away from a fifteen year relationship.


working in the financial world I see what you mean by the sunk cost fallacy.


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## bobert

Hackle84 said:


> i agree on going to counseling, but i know this girl to well, shes very good at saying everything you want to hear. She is a bit of a manipulator, always reaches out and plays the guilt trips later. So that’s why I say going to therapy for her to feel better. Forgive my ignorance what is an IC?


MC - Marriage Counselor
IC - Individual Counselor


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## Hackle84

Lila said:


> I agree with @bobert's advice. Divorce should not be taken lightly, even more so when there are young (age 5?) children involved.
> 
> It takes two people to fix a marriage. You're doing the right thing by communicating your unhappiness and recommending marriage counseling. Give it one last shot to save the marriage. A good marriage counselor will be able to advise you on ways to reconnect with each other. A good marriage counselor will also tell you two are too far gone to save the marriage. Whatever you do, do not get involved with someone else to fill the void. Divorce your wife guilt-free knowing that you did all you could to save the marriage.


I don’t disagree it definitely takes two to make a marriage work. One thing I fear is I see what my in-laws are like. My father in-law is in a living hell, his wife is very verbally abusive, and I sit here and watch as my wife starts down the same path. I don’t want to my Kiddos to think I stayed and was Unhappy and think that it’s okay for them to live that way too.

I spent a lot of years working with people and learned that it’s very hard for people to change. It took a life threatening event for me to really evaluate my life priorities. I had hoped that when I had told her she was losing me it might snap her out of where shes at to at least consider her actions. That’s what hurts is I mentally checked out of the relationship two years ago, and she acts like nothing even happened. We spent the 2 years basically being roommates. And when I told her I feel like a brother not a lover she just laughs it off. I really struggle with the idea that she is willing to change.


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## Hackle84

bobert said:


> MC - Marriage Counselor
> IC - Individual Counselor


ahhh thank you got it


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## sunsetmist

Thought you might like this:
*AAMOF* = as a matter of fact
*AP* = Affair Partner
*ASAP* = as soon as possible
*b/c* = because
*BAK* = back at keyboard
*BBFN* = bye bye for now
*BBL* = be back later
*BBS* = be back soon
*BF* = boyfriend or best friend
*BFN* = bye for now
*BH* = Betrayed Husband
*BIL* = brother-in-law
*BK* = back
*BRB* = be right back
*BRBGGP* = be right back gotta go potty
*BS* = Betrayed Spouse
*BSC = *Bat sh*t crazy
*BTDT* = been there, done that
*BTW* = by the way
*BW* = Betrayed Wife
*CBTB = *can’t believe the bulls***
*CRAFT* = can't remember a fricking thing
*CRS* = can't remember stuff (or use your imagination for S)
*CSA* = Childhood Sexual Abuse
*CU* = see you
*CUL8R* = see you later
*CWIM* = see what I mean
*CYA* = see ya
*DB* = dear boyfriend
*DC* = dear child
*DD* = dear daughter
*D-Day* = divorce day -or- affair Discovery Day
*DF* = dear fiancée
*DG* = dear girlfriend
*DH* = dear husband
*DS* = dear son
*DSD* = dear stepdaughter
*DSS* = dear stepson
*DW* = dear wife
*EA* = emotional affair
*exH* = ex husband
*exW* = ex wife
*FIL* = father-in-law
*FOO* = Family of Origin
*FTR* = for the record
*FUBAR* = ****ed/fouled up beyond all recognition/repair/reason (added by request)
*FWH* = former wayward husband
*FWIW* = for what it's worth
*FWW* = former wayward wife
*FYI* = for your information
*GF* = girlfriend
*GMTA* = great minds think alike
*GNO* = Girls Night Out
*GP* = general practitioner
*GTG* = got to go
*HD* = High drive (sexual)
*HTH* = HTH hope this helps
*IBRB* = I’ll be right back
*IC* = Individual counseling
*IDK* = I don't know
IIWY = if I were you
*IIRC* = if I recall correctly
*ILYNILWYA* = "I love you, not in love with you anymore."
*IMHO* = in my humble opinion
*IMNSHO* = in my not so humble opinion
*IMO* = in my opinion
*ISSF = *I’m so sexually frustrated
*ISTM *= it seems to me
*J/J* = just joking
*J/K* = just kidding
*KISA* = Knight in Shining Armor
*KWIM* = know what I mean
*LD* = low drive (sexual drive)
*LDR* = long distance relationship
*LMAO* = laughing my ass off
*LOL* = laughing out loud
*LOL* = laughing out loud
*LOLROF* = laughing out load, rolling on floor
*LTNS* = long time no see
*MC* = marriage counseling
*MIL* = mother-in-law
*MLC* = mid-life crisis
*MYOB* = mind your own business
*NC* = No Contact
*NDE* = near death experience
*NE* = any
*NMS* = not my style
*NMSAA* = not my style at all
*NP* = no problem
*NRE = *new relationship energy
*OM* = other man
*OMG* = oh my gosh
*ONS* = one night stand
*OP* = original poster
*OSF* = opposite sex friends
*OT* = off topic
*OTOH* = on the other hand
*OW* = other woman
*PA* = physical affair
*PA = *(sometimes) passive aggressive
*PIV* = penis in vagina referring to "traditional" sex
*PM* = private message
*POV* = POV point of view
*PP* = previous poster
*PUA* = Pick Up Artist
*ROF* = rolling on floor
*ROFL* = rolling on floor laughing
*ROFLMAO* = rolling on floor laughing my a** off
*ROFLOL* = rolling on floor laughing out loud
*ROTF* = rolling on the floor
*SAHD* = stay-at-home dad
*SAHM* = stay-at-home mom
*SAHP* = stay-at-home parent
*SEP = *somebody else’s problem
*SIL* = sister-in-law
*SNAFU* = situation normal all fouled/****ed up
*SO* = significant other
*SOL* = sh** out of luck
*SOS* = same old stuff (or use you imagination)
*STBX* = soon to be ex
*SWMBO* = She Who Must Be Obeyed
*TAM* = Talk About Marriage
*T/J* = thread jack
*TIA* = thanks in advance
*TMI* = too much information
*TOM* = the other man
*TOTGA* = the one that got away
*TOW* = the other woman
*TTFN* = tata for now
*TTYL* = talk to you later
*UR* = your or you're
*VAR* = voice activated recorder
*W/E* = whatever
*WAH* = work at home
*WAW* = Walk Away Wife
*WB* = welcome back
*WH* = Wayward Husband
*WOH* = work out of the home
*WS* = Wayward Spouse
*WTG* = way to go
*WW* = Wayward Wife
*YAOW *= yet another other woman
*YW* = your welcome
*YMMV* = your mileage (opinion) may vary


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## Marc878

Hackle84 said:


> I don’t disagree it definitely takes two to make a marriage work. One thing I fear is I see what my in-laws are like. My father in-law is in a living hell, his wife is very verbally abusive, and I sit here and watch as my wife starts down the same path. I don’t want to my Kiddos to think I stayed and was Unhappy and think that it’s okay for them to live that way too.
> 
> I spent a lot of years working with people and learned that it’s very hard for people to change. It took a life threatening event for me to really evaluate my life priorities. I had hoped that when I had told her she was losing me it might snap her out of where shes at to at least consider her actions. That’s what hurts is I mentally checked out of the relationship two years ago, and she acts like nothing even happened. We spent the 2 years basically being roommates. And when I told her I feel like a brother not a lover she just laughs it off. I really struggle with the idea that she is willing to change.


In finance/operations for years. For the most part people never change. Maybe temporarily but just revert back For the most part.


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## jlg07

Hackle84 said:


> I don’t disagree it definitely takes two to make a marriage work. One thing I fear is I see what my in-laws are like. My father in-law is in a living hell, his wife is very verbally abusive, and I sit here and watch as my wife starts down the same path. I don’t want to my Kiddos to think I stayed and was Unhappy and think that it’s okay for them to live that way too.
> 
> I spent a lot of years working with people and learned that it’s very hard for people to change. It took a life threatening event for me to really evaluate my life priorities. I had hoped that when I had told her she was losing me it might snap her out of where shes at to at least consider her actions. That’s what hurts is I mentally checked out of the relationship two years ago, and she acts like nothing even happened. We spent the 2 years basically being roommates. And when I told her I feel like a brother not a lover she just laughs it off. I really struggle with the idea that she is willing to change.


So, get YOUR plan together of what you will do and make sure that you have a timeline -- when you will IMPLEMENT that plan. Give Counseling and her a chance. If you see no significant changes, you can always pull the trigger on your plan.


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## BluesPower

So you are an Ahole until you decide to leave. Really and you are considering staying? Why? 

She is a cheater, i am betting she has cheated since. 

All of the marriage consoling BS... Nah, no thank you...

She is acting different for the minute until she has you back under her thumb... Get out...


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## Hackle84

BluesPower said:


> So you are an Ahole until you decide to leave. Really and you are considering staying? Why?
> 
> She is a cheater, i am betting she has cheated since.
> 
> All of the marriage consoling BS... Nah, no thank you...
> 
> She is acting different for the minute until she has you back under her thumb... Get out...


I’ve never worried about her being a cheater since we got married. There was a weekend we split up and had decided we were done. I believe she hung out with a mutual guy friend we had. This is a guy who has had the hots for her since they were kids.
She claims nothing happened, espically since this is the weekend that she said the infamous “if she was going to be with an a**hole it might as well be with the a**hole she knows” 

So I believe they really only hung out. But I will never know. He always would hang out with her on the weekends that I was out of town. Maybe I was just naive, but they never seemed to be ever hiding things.


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## BluesPower

Hackle84 said:


> I’ve never worried about her being a cheater since we got married. There was a weekend we split up and had decided we were done. I believe she hung out with a mutual guy friend we had. This is a guy who has had the hots for her since they were kids.
> 
> She claims nothing happened, espically since this is the weekend that she said the infamous “if she was going to be with an a**hole it might as well be with the a**hole she knows”
> 
> So I believe they really only hung out. But I will never know. He always would hang out with her on the weekends that I was out of town. Maybe I was just naive, but they never seemed to be ever hiding things.


You are kidding, right? You believed this? You broke up and she spent the weekend with the guy, really??? 

Have you believed this the whole time you are married??? What would make you think she was not a cheater exactly? 

Tell you what, read this to your best friend, but don't tell him it is about you, see what he says...

File for DIVORCE already...


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## DallasCowboyFan

Have you been to counseling? It is much easier to fix a relationship than it is to divorce and make a second one work. I have done it. And eventually the next one crumbled. But, we rebuilt it. And it was very difficult to get past things that cannot be unheard and things that cannot be undone. Forgiving doesn't mean forgetting and it takes time. But if it is possible, you will save thousands and both of you will be able to live with your kids. Without counseling, I would say you haven't tried all that you can for you both to be happy. You want someone to be happy with and so does she. That's a common goal.


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## Openminded

If you bought all that, then yes, you’re naive.


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## WandaJ

I think you are done. She may change enough to keep you in that marriage, but then slowly things will get back to old normal.


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## WandaJ

DallasCowboyFan said:


> Have you been to counseling? It is much easier to fix a relationship than it is to divorce and make a second one work. I have done it.


It is not that easy to fix relationship. You must have equally inversted partner working on it with you. His wife will be trying only until things are safe and back to normal for her.


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## Married but Happy

Hackle84 said:


> I sat back and had a good thought about what I wanted in life. And I realized I just wanted to be happy, and be with someone who was happy to be with me. Someone who shares my pains, and my happiness. Someone I can somewhere in cuddles, and kisses and chill in the couch and hold each other after a long hard day.


Such epiphanies are liberating, yet sometimes painful, too. I wanted the same things you mention. It wasn't a life-threatening situation that got me there, but rather the low, slow deterioration of my marriage and increasing unhappiness. My Buddhist FIL often asks people, "Are you happy?" Back then, my answer would have been No. So it was time to do something about it! It took some time to exit cleanly and compassionately (well, as much as was reasonable), but eventually I did. And it wasn't long after that when I found the very things you and I both want.


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## hinterdir

Hackle84 said:


> Me and my spouse have been together for 17 years. Married for almost 15. I’ve reached my wits end with her and really trying to see why I’m staying.
> 
> To start, We dated young and had a 2 year long distance relationship, while I was faithful I found after our 2nd year of marriage that she had dated her ex the whole time. Then when I came home we married within 3 months. The three months we dated I worried we rushed to fast. But we had talked about marriage to the point I felt obligated to get married I thought love will conquer it all.
> 
> I he first year was okay, then in year 2 we decided to try having kids. This really hurt us for the next 7 years as it turned sex into a chore. Trust me I never know any to hear the word ovulation schedule ever again. We lost all intimacy. This culminated in us splitting one weekend. I was devastated. I spent all weekend trying to deal with it. Then she asked me back and said “if I’m going to be with an A**hole i might as well be with the one I know”. I have never been able to forget that I felt settled for.
> 
> Shortly after a friend paid for us to do IVF and we had a beautiful set of twins. Our life’s we’re at its greatest for the next 6 months. Then she changed again to ignoring me. I mean like, don’t touch her, no hugs, kisses we’re literally wiped off her face after I kissed her. Sex was basically out the window.
> Then 2 years ago i was out of town for work. I had asked her to come with me On the trip since she loves to trace and she didn’t want to, as I was going to spend a lot of time at work. I tried to show her t was a break for her to get away from her life for a week and give us a chance. She said no. I was sitting at dinner by myself and realized I was living in a one sided loveless marriage. As embarrassing as it is I sat there crying softly and thought how do I move on. When I got home I told her I that the ball was in her court. And if things didn’t change I was gone. Things got even worse, the criticism, the snarky comments, the fighting.
> 
> Then I experienced a very life threatening event recently that shook me up. I sat back and had a good thought about what I wanted in life. And I realized I just wanted to be happy, and be with someone who was happy to be with me. Someone who shares my pains, and my happiness. Someone I can somewhere in cuddles, and kisses and chill in the couch and hold each other after a long hard day. I told her I was not in love anymore and hadn’t been for 2 years. Now that I’m done she says she wants me. But it’s so much overwhelming in “i love yous” that it just feels reactionary and fake. She told me she never thought I would ever leave her so she quit trying since I was a safe option.
> 
> I don’t see myself staying and I really at this point want out. I’m super frustrated that I have no feeling for her anymore. I said I would try counseling but I fee it’s more for her to learn to move on.
> Please feel free to ask I know this is a really condensed view of a 15 year marriage and there’s probably more I’ve left out.


NEVER stay with a cheater. 
You should have divorced her 13 years ago when you learned she was cheating. 
You missed your chance and you have paid the price for choosing to keep a cheater around.


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## DallasCowboyFan

WandaJ said:


> It is not that easy to fix relationship. You must have equally inversted partner working on it with you. His wife will be trying only until things are safe and back to normal for her.


I didn't say it was easy. She acts like she may want to invest. A good counselor can sort this out if it can be fixed. My second marriage came back from the dead after an emotional affair on her part and what seemed like a total lack of interest from her. I just believe it is worth a try before you throw the marriage away. I am glad I did. Divorce is hard and there is no guarantee that the subsequent marriage will be any better after the new wears off. I am not sure why anyone wouldn't at least see a counselor and see if there is any hope before throwing it away


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## Hackle84

I finally opened up to my father about my feelings, and the greatest reassurance from him was that no matter what he and my mother would love us both despite it all. The things I have to consider is that my kids would move 3 hours away from me if it did end. As she would not be able to live in the city we are currently in, due to cost. Plus back in our home town she would be close to both our parents for the kids to basically grow up the way me and her both did. My parents live in my grandparents house and the opportunities that the kids would have there with schooling, and family connections I feel would be much better. I would drive to see them every other weekend and it would help me reconnect with my parents. I just see the pain that it takes to get to that moment to find our "new Normal"

The biggest take away for me is that then the kids wouldn't see the fighting and general uncaring that their parents have for each other. I feel that that alone is more detrimental to them as they learn that it is okay to stay In an unhealthy toxic relationship. I hate that my oldest daughter has had to step in between our fights and tell us both to stop and be nice. A 5 year old shouldn't have that to deal with that. We've never been physically abusive and neither one of us are at all like that. But the words we throw at each other are very critical and verbally, and emotionally abusive. I have had to start shutting down potential arguments by ending the conversation, and moving on. I agree not discussing the problem and resolving it only allowed it to fester.

I do have to explain that the cheating moment didn't happen when we were married, it happened during the 2 years before we got married. I got home and we had a quick 3 month engagement. We kinda rushed getting married so we didn't end up having sex before we were married. During our dating and engagement is when I felt that maybe we were not the same people we had been 2 years prior when we had been dating before. But I had felt obligated to go through it all since we had planned it for 2 years. When she finally told me she had dated her ex for the 2 years I had been gone, she said she was afraid I would come home and not want her anymore so she had treated it as a back up plan.

Since we developed our relationship based on the physical/sexual side of things when we really got to know each other that's when the fighting started. She even said "had I know who you really were before this I would not have married you." Since then when the physical/sexual side of the relationship started to cool off we both grew distant and it led to where we are now. So when I was trying the last 5 years to get things back on track, she thought I only wanted sex, and she wasn't listening to me when I kept telling her that I wanted the deep connection with her.


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## BluesPower

Hackle84 said:


> I finally opened up to my father about my feelings, and the greatest reassurance from him was that no matter what he and my mother would love us both despite it all. The things I have to consider is that my kids would move 3 hours away from me if it did end. As she would not be able to live in the city we are currently in, due to cost. Plus back in our home town she would be close to both our parents for the kids to basically grow up the way me and her both did. My parents live in my grandparents house and the opportunities that the kids would have there with schooling, and family connections I feel would be much better. I would drive to see them every other weekend and it would help me reconnect with my parents. I just see the pain that it takes to get to that moment to find our "new Normal"
> 
> The biggest take away for me is that then the kids wouldn't see the fighting and general uncaring that their parents have for each other. I feel that that alone is more detrimental to them as they learn that it is okay to stay In an unhealthy toxic relationship. I hate that my oldest daughter has had to step in between our fights and tell us both to stop and be nice. A 5 year old shouldn't have that to deal with that. We've never been physically abusive and neither one of us are at all like that. But the words we throw at each other are very critical and verbally, and emotionally abusive. I have had to start shutting down potential arguments by ending the conversation, and moving on. I agree not discussing the problem and resolving it only allowed it to fester.
> 
> I do have to explain that the cheating moment didn't happen when we were married, it happened during the 2 years before we got married. I got home and we had a quick 3 month engagement. We kinda rushed getting married so we didn't end up having sex before we were married. During our dating and engagement is when I felt that maybe we were not the same people we had been 2 years prior when we had been dating before. But I had felt obligated to go through it all since we had planned it for 2 years. When she finally told me she had dated her ex for the 2 years I had been gone, she said she was afraid I would come home and not want her anymore so she had treated it as a back up plan.
> 
> Since we developed our relationship based on the physical/sexual side of things when we really got to know each other that's when the fighting started. She even said "had I know who you really were before this I would not have married you." Since then when the physical/sexual side of the relationship started to cool off we both grew distant and it led to where we are now. So when I was trying the last 5 years to get things back on track, she thought I only wanted sex, and she wasn't listening to me when I kept telling her that I wanted the deep connection with her.


You need to think about all of this. She can get a JOB, lots of people have them. 

Listen, you making excuses for her cheating is just such a weak personal stance to take, it is probably some of what has got you to where you are...

She lied to you for at least 2 years, slept with her old BF while you were in a committed relationship... THAT is the definition of cheating. You don't have to be marred. 

Further, when you guys got to see each other on break, did you sleep together? If not it is even worse, but I am guessing that you did. So I guess it is a good thing that you did not catch something from her BF.... 

Listen, you seem like a reasonable person, so please understand that you really, really need to wake up to some reality or you will be right back with another woman in the future that will abuse you like she has.

Can you understand what I am saying?????


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## Marduk

So, to be clear, she cheated on you while dating you, she took off for a weekend with another guy, she's told you that she settled for you, she told you that if she knew how you were before she married you she wouldn't have, and she's been cold and disrespectful for years.

Listen man, there's literally nothing there to save. Get out. Figure out why you'd rush into marriage like this with someone you barely know and with someone that doesn't even like you. Do that by being single for a while.


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## Hackle84

BluesPower said:


> You need to think about all of this. She can get a JOB, lots of people have them.
> 
> Listen, you making excuses for her cheating is just such a weak personal stance to take, it is probably some of what has got you to where you are...
> 
> She lied to you for at least 2 years, slept with her old BF while you were in a committed relationship... THAT is the definition of cheating. You don't have to be marred.
> 
> Further, when you guys got to see each other on break, did you sleep together? If not it is even worse, but I am guessing that you did. So I guess it is a good thing that you did not catch something from her BF....
> 
> Listen, you seem like a reasonable person, so please understand that you really, really need to wake up to some reality or you will be right back with another woman in the future that will abuse you like she has.
> 
> Can you understand what I am saying?????


Yes I understand what your getting at. No we never had sex till we were married, I literally didn't see her for 2 years while I was away, there were no breaks or times for me to return. I can see what you mean by making excuses, I'm just getting information on the table at this point. I've told her how it has affected me the whole time since it happened. And she keeps just saying that it is in the past and needs to stay there and lets move on from it. 

I don't disagree that at one point to make it work, I would need to move on from this sticking point. Really at this point I tell her that it's not me with a foot out the door, it's me standing outside the door looking in wondering why I would stay.


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## Openminded

Children absorb everything they see. Yours are learning this is what marriage looks like and they could repeat it one day. The one thing we should do as parents is give our children the best opportunity to thrive. Yours aren’t getting that. Watching your parents go at each other is a scary thing for children. They don’t feel safe.

Your wife doesn’t want a divorce so now comes all the promises. Some people can change but most aren’t willing to put in the hard work that’s necessary to have a good marriage. What she wants to do is rug sweep the past (you should never doubt she cheated on you that weekend) and that’s not a good indicator for your future life with her. You can’t do a successful reset on a marriage with someone who isn’t willing to address the issues.


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## BluesPower

Hackle84 said:


> Yes I understand what your getting at. No we never had sex till we were married, I literally didn't see her for 2 years while I was away, there were no breaks or times for me to return. I can see what you mean by making excuses, I'm just getting information on the table at this point. I've told her how it has affected me the whole time since it happened. And she keeps just saying that it is in the past and needs to stay there and lets move on from it.
> 
> I don't disagree that at one point to make it work, I would need to move on from this sticking point. Really at this point I tell her that it's not me with a foot out the door, it's me standing outside the door looking in wondering why I would stay.


OMG, I guess you were faithful to her though??? Right? Please tell me that you got laid a few times in collage. 

Wow, dude, please wake up to reality, I am literally begging you, I am on my knees begging you to get out of this hell that you have allowed yourself to get into. 

Well did she thank you for letting her bang her boyfriend for two years before married her? And let me guess, you don't think she has had any other affairs since you have been married, right????


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## Hackle84

BluesPower said:


> OMG, I guess you were faithful to her though??? Right? Please tell me that you got laid a few times in collage.
> 
> Wow, dude, please wake up to reality, I am literally begging you, I am on my knees begging you to get out of this hell that you have allowed yourself to get into.
> 
> Well did she thank you for letting her bang her boyfriend for two years before married her? And let me guess, you don't think she has had any other affairs since you have been married, right????


confession time, she was my only person I’ve ever been with.


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## BluesPower

Hackle84 said:


> confession time, she was my only person I’ve ever been with.


Brother, wow... 

Listen, you have to get out. You have sacrificed your life for this woman that does not love you and never will. 

You need to be single and learn about life. Wow man I am so sorry for you. 

The bright side is that you don't have to live like this, there really are nice women out there that will love you. 

You get that you know nothing about women, relationships, or marriage for the most part. You really need some time to grow as a person and learn about life before you even think about getting with someone. 

Please understand that you don't have to live like this, in fear, in panic, in misery... 

Bless you...


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## Hackle84

BluesPower said:


> Brother, wow...
> 
> Listen, you have to get out. You have sacrificed your life for this woman that does not love you and never will.
> 
> You need to be single and learn about life. Wow man I am so sorry for you.
> 
> The bright side is that you don't have to live like this, there really are nice women out there that will love you.
> 
> You get that you know nothing about women, relationships, or marriage for the most part. You really need some time to grow as a person and learn about life before you even think about getting with someone.
> 
> Please understand that you don't have to live like this, in fear, in panic, in misery...
> 
> Bless you...


That’s one thing I do look forward to is the idea of growing in many areas of my self.


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## BluesPower

Hackle84 said:


> That’s one thing I do look forward to is the idea of growing in many areas of my self.


You should man, you really should. There is a whole new world out there. Just, take your time, learn some stuff. 

Don't be stupid and fall in love with the first women you meet. Read some books, learn about "What a healthy relationship looks like". Stuff like that. 

Then party like a rock star...


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## Vulcan2013

Dude, if you are having any doubts about divorcing, you need to take a good look at your FIL. That's your whole life if you stay in this relationship, especially if you give up your career. You remind me of myself many years ago; people can adjust to intolerable conditions over time. That's why we are all saying the same thing - no hope for this.


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## Hackle84

After a conversation with the wife on how things have gone, she thinks I'm just focusing on the past and wont let it go. Problem is I have serious concerns of what happened in the past, and the unresolved feelings of resentment I has created. It has led us to be very hyper critical of everything we do. Every time I make even a small mistake she is quick to point it out, and Vice Versa, we are just at that point where we can only keep seeing the bad that each other does. I felt like she checked out emotionally 5 years ago after we had kids. Now that I'm done with the marriage, and had made my intentions known that I really don't see us reconciling, she is acting like I'm the greatest person in the world. I can't help but feel like her feeling's at this point are reactionary and fake. How can you go from showing no emotion, or only negative emotion, to suddenly saying you love everything about me, and even telling me to purchase expensive things that I've always wanted. It just feels so fake, and forced on her end.

I can't help but think about how she is manipulative and I'm very guarded about it. I don't want to fall for the emotional manipulation game she plays. I keep trying to tread water on this, and when I question her sincerity, She throws out the guilt trip of how could I not believe her?

Word of wisdom I've learned right now. Opposites do not attract, it may bring about a feeling of excitement in the beginning since it's not what you've always been used to, but eventually you find you grow separately since you don't actually enjoy the same things.


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## Lostinthought61

She absolutely being manipulative because she is in self preservation mode....she did not you would pull the trigger and now that you have she is in fight mode....do not buy into this.


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## Hackle84

Lostinthought61 said:


> She absolutely being manipulative because she is in self preservation mode....she did not you would pull the trigger and now that you have she is in fight mode....do not buy into this.


That's my thoughts on it exactly. She worries about how it will look in our religious community. She has multiple cousins who have all divorced, and I know she doesn't want to become another family statistic. That's why it feels so fake, she hasn't been truly emotional with me for so long I don't know what to believe from her. And what I do get I feel like is a manipulation.


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## Lostinthought61

So then I would keep telling your too late, where were your emotions years, months, weeks ago...sorry but you can turn off those alligator tears.


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## pastasauce79

Heck yeah she's in preservation mode! Not only her reputation is on the line, if she doesn't work, her financial stability is at risk. It's easier to stay while faking the loving wife roll and have everything you need paid for than getting up every morning and go to work. 

The moment you saw her change that was the moment she thought oh-oh this is not good for ME and MY future. 

Don't be fooled by her sudden change of heart. She doesn't care about you or the marriage. She only cares about herself.


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## Openminded

There’s an old saying that opposites attract but don’t sustain. I think it’s more true than not.


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## Hackle84

pastasauce79 said:


> Heck yeah she's in preservation mode! Not only her reputation is on the line, if she doesn't work, her financial stability is at risk. It's easier to stay while faking the loving wife roll and have everything you need paid for than getting up every morning and go to work.
> 
> The moment you saw her change that was the moment she thought oh-oh this is not good for ME and MY future.
> 
> Don't be fooled by her sudden change of heart. She doesn't care about you or the marriage. She only cares about herself.


I understand she would want to stay for the kids and her situation. I don’t want to leave my kids. But I just can’t keep living this way with her


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## Evinrude58

Hackle84 said:


> I’ve never worried about her being a cheater since we got married. There was a weekend we split up and had decided we were done. I believe she hung out with a mutual guy friend we had. This is a guy who has had the hots for her since they were kids.
> She claims nothing happened, espically since this is the weekend that she said the infamous “if she was going to be with an a**hole it might as well be with the a**hole she knows”
> 
> So I believe they really only hung out. But I will never know. He always would hang out with her on the weekends that I was out of town. Maybe I was just naive, but they never seemed to be ever hiding things.


That’s one of the most naive things I’ve ever read. Yes, you were naive.


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## Hackle84

So I'm ready to end this and get a divorce, I want to be happy again. I know the fight she will put up, and the water works she will turn on. I don't want to get hung up on this and then realize I'm being manipulated again. Any Advice on how to end this amicably?


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## WandaJ

Hackle84 said:


> Word of wisdom I've learned right now. Opposites do not attract, it may bring about a feeling of excitement in the beginning since it's not what you've always been used to, but eventually you find you grow separately since you don't actually enjoy the same things.


My feelings exactly.


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## WandaJ

Hackle84 said:


> So I'm ready to end this and get a divorce, I want to be happy again. I know the fight she will put up, and the water works she will turn on. I don't want to get hung up on this and then realize I'm being manipulated again. Any Advice on how to end this amicably?


It really takes two to do it amicably. She will probably fight you now, but hopefully will come to her senses, and counts the money that lawyers would take.
Five years ago I would think my husband would never agree on anything amicable. But by now emotions calmed down, and we both want to make sure that we all have decent lives after the split. I hope it won't take that long for you.


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## Evinrude58

Advice on how to end it amicably:

Just end it. Communicate through lawyers. Don’t try to be fair. Her lawyer will see that as weakness and go for the throat. She is not your friend. She was not your friend.
It doesn’t have to end amicably. It just needs to end. Get a lawyer that will fight for you and get the very best deal you can in the divorce. You’ve earned it.

I’m sorry that she is the only one you’ve ever been with. Looks like you have tried to live right and got burned.

You now have the chance to find what you’ve never had. You will eventually see this divorce as a blessing. It will take a couple of years, butyou will see it.
Sorry this happened to you, glad you’re moving forward.


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## Hackle84

One of the things we discussed is what would happen plan wise, with the kids, and the house, and assets. I told her the only few things I wanted, which is very little as I would rather leave her in a postion to not have to start over. I really only want access to my kids for me and my parents. I assured her that with child support and spousal support would more then take care of her. She then asked me things like, "I get half of your retirement too don't I?"

Big red flag for me.

I don't doubt that legally she would be entitled to half of what we accrued together, but that felt like a total jump for the throat. And It sounds like she just wants to see where all "her" Money is.

I'm unfortunatly in a position that I can't do anything for the next 2 months. As I'm out of state for work, and can't deal with the problem face to face yet.


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## Evinrude58

You had better get the best lawyer you can find. Your wife has no feelings for you. She has a lot of strong feelings for your money. You can’t see it now, but your wife doesn’t sound like a good person. You have idea what she’s going to do to you in this divorce financially. I think you’re going to be betrayed all over again...
Better get ready.


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## Casual Observer

Marc878 said:


> In finance/operations for years. For the most part people never change. Maybe temporarily but just revert back For the most part.


The frustrating part is that they'll often recognize they have issues, they'll say they will work on change, but inevitably the conversation will come back to "Why do I have to change? Why can't I be me?" There is such a strong desire for self-preservation in some people. For short periods of time they can see things as they are, but they so easily revert. You would think that breaking up, which they don't want to do, would be a strong-enough motivation for change, but it's not.

My wife suggested to me that I should see a counselor so I can feel OK with her as she is. I told her one of the reasons I'm avoiding personal counseling right now is that I don't want to hear the message. That message being, it's wrong to put too much hope in the idea that she will change. You only have control over your own actions, your own feelings. And if you have needs she can't meet, and you feel they're important, then you may need to move on. 

In the OP's case though, I don't see the wife desiring to stay in the marriage, which is different my my situation.


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## MattMatt

Casual Observer said:


> The frustrating part is that they'll often recognize they have issues, they'll say they will work on change, but inevitably the conversation will come back to "Why do I have to change? Why can't I be me?" There is such a strong desire for self-preservation in some people. For short periods of time they can see things as they are, but they so easily revert. You would think that breaking up, which they don't want to do, would be a strong-enough motivation for change, but it's not.
> 
> My wife suggested to me that I should see a counselor so I can feel OK with her as she is. I told her one of the reasons I'm avoiding personal counseling right now is that I don't want to hear the message. That message being, it's wrong to put too much hope in the idea that she will change. You only have control over your own actions, your own feelings. And if you have needs she can't meet, and you feel they're important, then you may need to move on.
> 
> In the OP's case though, I don't see the wife desiring to stay in the marriage, which is different my my situation.


Why does your wife hold that opinion?


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## Lostinthought61

Hackle i am with the others i sense greed coming from her and she wants as much as she can get. If i were you, i would stop all discussions and don't be so quick to offer everything....i would wait and sit down with her face to face , and calmly out line a fair deal and if she does not agree to it, than remind her the minute you bring in lawyers that she will lose a good precent to paying for them.


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## Casual Observer

MattMatt said:


> Why does your wife hold that opinion?


Which opinion? Are you asking why my wife thinks I should be seeking individual counseling? It's because she wants to off-load responsibility for what's going on. She's desperate to want to believe where things are is not her fault. This came up again the other day... things were getting really bad again because she'd gone down the Groundhog Day rabbit hole... yet again... an almost-weekly occurrence where everything she got helped with at her EMDR sessions with her personal therapist, everything comes together, she makes progress... and then within 3 days, poof, it's all gone.

Umm....that's not my fault. This past Wednesday's session her counselor worked on how she can stop being so defensive and work on disarming and work on empathy and compassion when listening to me. Thursday my wife sends me a text talking about how she's looking forward to putting to use what she's learned. So we go out to dinner that evening (not formal, but going out at all is significant these days!) and... bam. 100% defensive & angry & combative. 

So yesterday I bring it up at our MC session. And my wife says what? There was nothing like that. It was a pleasant conversation. Thank God (and I do mean with a capital G) that, on our way home from that dinner, I was so frustrated with how the conversation went, her lack of using ANY of what she'd been told by her IC to do... that I asked to get out of the car on the way home and walk the rest of the way. And it's almost a deer-in-the-headlight moment and she says "Oh, that's right." She had, in just a few days, re-written the events in her mind.

So last night I worked with her on a letter to her IC, because I don't think her IC has a clue about how much my wife re-writes things. Basically my wife is incredibly dishonest with herself. Which spill out into the rest of the world. Her therapist should now have a better idea of what she's dealing with.

Is this becoming a thread jack or is this relevant to the OP?


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