# Recovered alcoholic's wife rejects new-found sincerity. Is it over?



## napastan (5 mo ago)

After 20 years of drinking - despite having a successful career, many accomplishments, no DUI, no abuse, just not 100% there as an emotionally mature spouse for many years - my wife understandably developed detachment and lack of trust in things I said and disrespected my social interactions. Now four years completely alcohol-free, turning over a new leaf, feeling like a new person, opening up, listing actively, being empathetic, she still keeps up an emotional barrier. 

She says I've always been selfish and don't have an empathetic boy in my body. I disagree, but her feelings are, understandably, entrenched. We almost got divorced four years ago, but are now back together living in a civil-fashion under the same roof, though sleeping in separate rooms. We see friends together, watch TV and movies together in the living room, talk about our jobs, talk about the news, discuss things happening in our area, etc. Just no intimacy, which I can live with, but I can't live with the emotional distance and disrespect. just below the surface.

Is there any hope, or should I expect that she will never open up to accepting the "new me." For example, she recently had an ailment and I asked her about it and how she was feeling, what the hurt felt like, what did the doctor say and what did the doctor do to help, etc, etc. And yet, she said I was being insincere and just using empty words. In my heart, I was genuinely trying to express true concern, interest and empathy for her well-being. But she wouldn't believe that I had true empathy and thought I was just being insincere. Same thing when I express interest in how her day went she thinks I'm just parroting words to hear myself talk.

Is this current relationship, despite being fraught with years of negative patterning and lack of sensitivity on my part, now going to be irreconcilable? I can't go on living with a wife who will never grow more accepting, take me seriously or trust anything I say,, no matter how hard I try to live as a new, more energetic and positive person with everyone around me. Have you ever been in a similar situation? 

They say "trust" goes away in buckets and only returns in "small drops." But after 4 years of living as a different, more empathetic and better person (in my opinion), trying to be a positive and good spouse, the bucket of trust is still empty. At 69, I'm not interested or capable practically of starting over, but might consider living separately due to the hostility and lack of respect I sense lying just below the surface. What should I do?


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Yeah, it sounds like she is accustomed to having your behaviour to point to as "the problem", and can't adjust to things being different. Four years sounds like enough. You could try MC, but she sounds pretty entrenched.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You chose the bottle now you are paying the price. 4 years sober is a great accomplishment but I don’t think that makes up for the 20 years previous.
There is no magic fix. You could try taking her out once a week or so if she’d agree to date nights.


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

napastan said:


> the hostility and lack of respect I sense lying just below the surface


Have you done 12-step? Have you made amends to her?

Here's an imaginary exercise. Suppose you were in marriage counselling with me, and I said to her, _"you probably have some hostility remaining from the 20 years of what you suffered. Tell me about that."_ What would she tell me?


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

She's detached... which is understandable after 20 years of alcohol first. But why is she sharing the same house with you? I don't get it.


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

napastan said:


> After 20 years of drinking - despite having a successful career, many accomplishments, no DUI, no abuse, just not 100% there as an emotionally mature spouse for many years - my wife understandably developed detachment and lack of trust in things I said and disrespected my social interactions. Now four years completely alcohol-free, turning over a new leaf, feeling like a new person, opening up, listing actively, being empathetic, she still keeps up an emotional barrier.
> 
> She says I've always been selfish and don't have an empathetic boy in my body. I disagree, but her feelings are, understandably, entrenched. We almost got divorced four years ago, but are now back together living in a civil-fashion under the same roof, though sleeping in separate rooms. We see friends together, watch TV and movies together in the living room, talk about our jobs, talk about the news, discuss things happening in our area, etc. Just no intimacy, which I can live with, but I can't live with the emotional distance and disrespect. just below the surface.
> 
> ...


You're doing great. However it goes continue as you're doing.


----------



## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

I think she will always be looking for clues that you are drinking again. She lived with the drunk you for twenty years, if you think she can just sweep that under the rug you are wrong. Living with an alcoholic is a life full of disappointment, and that is the relationship dynamic she is use to. She may never fully be able to trust you or let go of her resentment.

I have been on both sides of this issue so speak from experience. It's fantastic you got four years of sobriety, be proud of yourself. Yet you need to understand your personal journey through this is different than your wife's or family's journey, you can't expect them to simply accept the new you.

Appreciate whatever good the day brings, focus on keeping yourself healthy.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

napastan said:


> no intimacy, which I can live with, but I can't live with the emotional distance and disrespect. just below the surface.


But, your wife did. For 20 years. You have a lot of catching up to do…hopefully she comes around but you created this distance, and it may take time to trust you again. Hopefully not 20 years.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Some things can’t be fixed. You’ll have to decide how much time you’re willing to give her. Five years? Forever? Only you can determine how much is enough.


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

Four years is enough.

Don't let this get milked forever. Period.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Sometimes there is too much damage to overcome. 20 years of your life down the drain, I have to wonder why she stayed at all. You should probably just rip off the band-aid.


----------



## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Sleep in the bed you made ….


----------



## 342693 (Mar 2, 2020)

She built up pretty high walls in 20 years. 4 years is a long time...and congrats on your sobriety. But it sounds like she needs professional help to take down the walls and trust again. Nothing you say or do is going to do that alone.

Have you suggested MC to her?


----------



## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

napastan said:


> After 20 years of drinking - despite having a successful career, many accomplishments, no DUI, no abuse, just not 100% there as an emotionally mature spouse for many years - my wife understandably developed detachment and lack of trust in things I said and disrespected my social interactions. Now four years completely alcohol-free, turning over a new leaf, feeling like a new person, opening up, listing actively, being empathetic, she still keeps up an emotional barrier.
> 
> She says I've always been selfish and don't have an empathetic boy in my body. I disagree, but her feelings are, understandably, entrenched. We almost got divorced four years ago, but are now back together living in a civil-fashion under the same roof, though sleeping in separate rooms. We see friends together, watch TV and movies together in the living room, talk about our jobs, talk about the news, discuss things happening in our area, etc. Just no intimacy, which I can live with, but I can't live with the emotional distance and disrespect. just below the surface.
> 
> ...


Has she gone to Al-Anon? It could possibly help her cope with the fact you have changed. I went through a rehab and quit a year before I met my wife. She's never seen me drink so that was never an issue. Sadly statistics show many spouses can never accept the change in the other. They that and/counceling to see if the issue can be found and resolved.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

It is what it is. You've been a functional alcoholic for 20 years. Despite what other people might say, alcoholism is an illness. It's great you managed to overcome it right now, but I understand your wife's worries. Living with an alcoholic is not easy. It will always be at the back of her mind. Give it another year. But then you will be 70. Maybe what you have right now is enough. You are lucky to be alive. Enjoy your life.


----------



## BecauseSheWeeps (9 mo ago)

*Deidre* said:


> But, your wife did. For 20 years. You have a lot of catching up to do…hopefully she comes around but you created this distance, and it may take time to trust you again. Hopefully not 20 years.


I love this


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I’m rereading my post, it sounds harsh and I’m not dismissing the good work and self improvement on the part of the OP. But, it’s just interesting that he’s stating what he “can’t live with” after four years, when his wife lived with it for 20.

It’s hard to manufacture emotional closeness so it’s quite possible that she’s done.


----------



## BecauseSheWeeps (9 mo ago)

*Deidre* said:


> I’m rereading my post, it sounds harsh and I’m not dismissing the good work and self improvement on the part of the OP. But, it’s just interesting that he’s stating what he “can’t live with” after four years, when his wife lived with it for 20.
> 
> It’s hard to manufacture emotional closeness so it’s quite possible that she’s done.


You aren't wrong though and I can safely say that I hear you loud and clear as we know what my posts have been like lately. I understand why the wife would feel that way. She was patient for 20 years, and he has complaints of 4.


----------



## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

*Deidre* said:


> I’m rereading my post, it sounds harsh and I’m not dismissing the good work and self improvement on the part of the OP. *But, it’s just interesting that he’s stating what he “can’t live with” after four years, when his wife lived with it for 20.*
> 
> It’s hard to manufacture emotional closeness so it’s quite possible that she’s done.


That’s on her though. While he bears full responsibility and ownership for his actions and behavior, she bears the responsibility for choosing to live with it for 20 years.

He’s improved himself and wants to improve his marriage.
Now if his behavior and actions over the last 20 years are too much for his wife to get past, that’s understandable. If her love for him is dead and she can’t get past the last 20 years, that’s fine. And I wouldn’t fault her for that.

And his consequence is that he may have destroyed his marriage. And if that’s the case, then they should divorce. 
But he is under no obligation to suffer in misery for the next however many years with a distant, unloving, contemptful wife.

He should not be condemned to remain in a marriage with no intimacy and high contempt. 
If she is unwilling/unable to rebuild the marriage dynamic with him, then he should leave. It’s best for both of them. He doesn’t have to stay and suffer for the next 20 years just because she did.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

DudeInProgress said:


> That’s on her though. While he bears full responsibility and ownership for his actions and behavior, she bears the responsibility for choosing to live with it for 20 years.
> 
> He’s improved himself and wants to improve his marriage.
> Now if his behavior and actions over the last 20 years are too much for his wife to get past, that’s understandable. If her love for him is dead and she can’t get past the last 20 years, that’s fine. And I wouldn’t fault her for that.
> ...


That’s true - we all have choices to make. I think some people don’t believe in divorce so they “stick it out.”


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> She's detached... which is understandable after 20 years of alcohol first. But why is she sharing the same house with you? I don't get it.


Bills are being paid, roof over head, has a good life.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

CountryMike said:


> Bills are being paid, roof over head, has a good life.


I guess… not sure how good it is to share your house with your ex alcoholic husband you don’t trust - and clearly despise.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

napastan said:


> After 20 years of drinking - despite having a successful career, many accomplishments, no DUI, no abuse, just not 100% there as an emotionally mature spouse for many years - my wife understandably developed detachment and lack of trust in things I said and disrespected my social interactions. Now four years completely alcohol-free, turning over a new leaf, feeling like a new person, opening up, listing actively, being empathetic, she still keeps up an emotional barrier.
> 
> She says I've always been selfish and don't have an empathetic boy in my body. I disagree, but her feelings are, understandably, entrenched. We almost got divorced four years ago, but are now back together living in a civil-fashion under the same roof, though sleeping in separate rooms. We see friends together, watch TV and movies together in the living room, talk about our jobs, talk about the news, discuss things happening in our area, etc. Just no intimacy, which I can live with, but I can't live with the emotional distance and disrespect. just below the surface.
> 
> ...


Let me tell you a story about a pal of mine. He got sober after 10 plus years going to Hazelden. His counselor told him that his wife may not like the new you Prior to completion of the program. His counselor was right.


----------



## Corgi Mum (10 mo ago)

TinyTbone said:


> Has she gone to Al-Anon? It could possibly help her cope with the fact you have changed. I went through a rehab and quit a year before I met my wife. She's never seen me drink so that was never an issue. Sadly statistics show many spouses can never accept the change in the other. They that and/counceling to see if the issue can be found and resolved.


First, congratulations on your sobriety.

I'll second the recommendation for her to attend Al-Anon. People who live with an alcoholic develop unhealthy coping strategies and patterns of thinking/feeling/behaving. Those have to be consciously unlearned.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Marc878 said:


> You chose the bottle now you are paying the price. 4 years sober is a great accomplishment but I don’t think that makes up for the 20 years previous.
> There is no magic fix. You could try taking her out once a week or so if she’d agree to date nights.


I agree with this. Recovered addicts of any kind including alcohol often have stunted maturity and have been kind of stuck in place during their drunk years. You have a lot of evolving to do. 

Congratulations on your sobriety. I just think all you can do is all you can do. You can't control when or if her trust comes back or if she will even find you the same person that she first fell for. Lots of times the people that you were comfortable with when you were abusing substances is completely different when you're sober and just doesn't work out. I hope you're in AA because they will talk about all that kind of stuff.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> But, your wife did. For 20 years. You have a lot of catching up to do…hopefully she comes around but you created this distance, and it may take time to trust you again. Hopefully not 20 years.


Well said.


----------



## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

My husband has been sober for almost two years. In some ways his sobriety has been more difficult for me to navigate emotionally than his active addiction. For the first year I didn’t trust his sobriety would last. The second year, when it became apparent that this was something he was truly embracing, I realized I would never be the priority in his life. I wasn’t when he was drinking and now sobriety was his priority. It left me feeling sad, detached and lost.

I have made steps because I realize this is now a me problem. It is totally unfair that he got to act as ****ty as he did for all those years and it is up to me to deal with my resentments. He doesn’t even know what an emotionally abusive **** he was then so he doesn’t understand why I flinch with genuine niceties like “how are you feeling” and “how was your day”. What has helped is actually having conversations about it, conversations started by him. Asking what it was like, apologizing. 12 steps is great but you can only make amends for what you know you did. And when you are making amends to a spouse that you regularly abused by neglect, you can only make a “living amends”, which is treating them better now. But you need to TELL them you are doing that. Just being caring and not acknowledging your past uncaring doesn’t help build trust.

I noticed you downplayed the impact of your drinking with the “no DUI”, “no abuse” caveats. That is complete BS. Sounds like you are trying to say you aren’t as bad someone else. You were bad to your wife.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Bluesclues said:


> My husband has been sober for almost two years. In some ways his sobriety has been more difficult for me to navigate emotionally than his active addiction. For the first year I didn’t trust his sobriety would last. The second year, when it became apparent that this was something he was truly embracing, I realized I would never be the priority in his life. I wasn’t when he was drinking and now sobriety was his priority. It left me feeling sad, detached and lost.
> 
> I have made steps because I realize this is now a me problem. It is totally unfair that he got to act as **ty as he did for all those years and it is up to me to deal with my resentments. He doesn’t even know what an emotionally abusive ** he was then so he doesn’t understand why I flinch with genuine niceties like “how are you feeling” and “how was your day”. What has helped is actually having conversations about it, conversations started by him. Asking what it was like, apologizing. 12 steps is great but you can only make amends for what you know you did. And when you are making amends to a spouse that you regularly abused by neglect, you can only make a “living amends”, which is treating them better now. But you need to TELL them you are doing that. Just being caring and not acknowledging your past uncaring doesn’t help build trust.
> 
> I noticed you downplayed the impact of your drinking with the “no DUI”, “no abuse” caveats. That is complete BS. Sounds like you are trying to say you aren’t as bad someone else. You were bad to your wife.


I always wondered why people remain in relationships with alcoholic. It must be hell. I wouldn't stay.


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> I always wondered why people remain in relationships with alcoholic. It must be hell. I wouldn't stay.


That's true, but I see it as an illness, not a voluntary act. Is it ok to jump ship if your spouse develops a life-threatening illness?


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Bluesclues said:


> My husband has been sober for almost two years. In some ways his sobriety has been more difficult for me to navigate emotionally than his active addiction. For the first year I didn’t trust his sobriety would last. The second year, when it became apparent that this was something he was truly embracing, I realized I would never be the priority in his life. I wasn’t when he was drinking and now sobriety was his priority. It left me feeling sad, detached and lost.
> 
> I have made steps because I realize this is now a me problem. It is totally unfair that he got to act as **ty as he did for all those years and it is up to me to deal with my resentments. He doesn’t even know what an emotionally abusive ** he was then so he doesn’t understand why I flinch with genuine niceties like “how are you feeling” and “how was your day”. What has helped is actually having conversations about it, conversations started by him. Asking what it was like, apologizing. 12 steps is great but you can only make amends for what you know you did. And when you are making amends to a spouse that you regularly abused by neglect, you can only make a “living amends”, which is treating them better now. But you need to TELL them you are doing that. Just being caring and not acknowledging your past uncaring doesn’t help build trust.


Thanks - this is really helpful.


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

One of the problems with addiction is that there’s sooo much more going on than the substance of choice.

Both sides of my family have a long history of addiction, and my experience has been that addicts are highly manipulative people who blame and shame and bad-mouth those around them, while taking responsibility for nothing.

The level of crazy making is astonishing, and unless you’ve experienced it, you probably wouldn’t believe it.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Drinking etc, is a choice.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Laurentium said:


> That's true, but I see it as an illness, not a voluntary act. Is it ok to jump ship if your spouse develops a life-threatening illness?


No one made or forced him to drink for 20 years. Now that he’s been sober for 4 years isn’t going to magically erase the damage.


----------



## fluffycoco (May 29, 2021)

Marc878 said:


> No one made or forced him to drink for 20 years. Now that he’s been sober for 4 years isn’t going to magically erase the damage.


But she didn't leave him during those 20 years, why became hostile now, not happy for his sobriety ?


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

fluffycoco said:


> But she didn't leave him during those 20 years, why became hostile now, not happy for his sobriety ?


Seriously? She may have stayed but has thick high walls up. Being sober for the last 4 years doesn’t necessarily fix that. This isn’t a Disney movie.


----------



## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

I


napastan said:


> After 20 years of drinking - despite having a successful career, many accomplishments, no DUI, no abuse, just not 100% there as an emotionally mature spouse for many years - my wife understandably developed detachment and lack of trust in things I said and disrespected my social interactions. Now four years completely alcohol-free, turning over a new leaf, feeling like a new person, opening up, listing actively, being empathetic, she still keeps up an emotional barrier.
> 
> She says I've always been selfish and don't have an empathetic boy in my body. I disagree, but her feelings are, understandably, entrenched. We almost got divorced four years ago, but are now back together living in a civil-fashion under the same roof, though sleeping in separate rooms. We see friends together, watch TV and movies together in the living room, talk about our jobs, talk about the news, discuss things happening in our area, etc. Just no intimacy, which I can live with, but I can't live with the emotional distance and disrespect. just below the surface.
> 
> ...


If I may.. As the wife of my late husband who passed away in March of this year. He was a high functioning alcholic. Great career, no DUI's, however, unlike you there was mental and verbal abuse. But I can wholeheartedly relate and I feel bad for you. My husband NEVER went more than about 8 months not drinking our entire 15 years together. Even then, I can't say I believe he was sober comepletely as he'd hid it before (as if I wouldn't smell it or know) and I mean, in those 'sober' days/weeks/months, ect... I was ALWAYS, ALWAYS on my guard and waiting for the ball to drop and things to return the way they'd been.

The thing about my husband, he had it in his head, if he was making the majority of the money, that was it. I should not expect any more than that. He expected me to take care of his house, cook, manage the finances and give him sex whenever he was ready and that was my role. I was arm candy for public events, dotted on, but a doormat at home for years and years. 

As opposed to you, my husband was never genuine and it was really hard to tell if he was trying to be sincere but the years of neglect were so deeply rooted in me. I didn't disrespect him though, I just could never let my guard down and unlike you, he wasn't looking to emotionally connect with me. You're in a very hard spot. The only thing I can suggest you do (and after four years of this change you've made you have every right for it to be acknowledged,) is have that tough conversation and not THROW it in her face, but simply say.. I know you've been burned in the past by me, I am still sorry for that and the fact it's shaken our marriage and maybe even your faith in me. I love you, I want the chance for you to love me again completely. I'm not sure what more I can do, but if you'll trust me and tell me what you need, I am willing. What I am not willing, however is for my past to be held against me forever. 

You have sobriety on your side and I never truly had that with my husband which is why I never gave merit to his half-assed attempt to be 'better.' It was always short lived and 95% of the time was simply to get back into my good graces, not because he wanted to be a better partner. 

I wish you luck, keep us updated here please.


----------



## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> I guess… not sure how good it is to share your house with your ex alcoholic husband you don’t trust - and clearly despise.


There are worse fates I believe.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> There are worse fates I believe.


yes, but sounds a bit depressing to me.


----------



## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

Laurentium said:


> That's true, but I see it as an illness, not a voluntary act. Is it ok to jump ship if your spouse develops a life-threatening illness?


Ah yes, yet when you’re giving a diagnosis, and there are treatments available and you actively choose not to seek those treatments… then what is it?


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> Ah yes, yet when you’re giving a diagnosis, and there are treatments available and you actively choose not to seek those treatments… then what is it?


But you are an addict... you are not in control. I have been a functional alcoholic for a very brief period of my life, so I've been there. I can tell you that, if you haven't been an alcoholic yourself, you have no idea what's it like. I get all the permanent resentment and the walls up, but you are not doing it on purpose. You need your drug once you get addicted. I was lucky because I managed to get rid of the devil after a few months of hell, but not everybody has the strength inside them. I guess it also depends on the length of your addiction. What I'm saying is that I understand why his wife has detached, but it's not really the OP's fault. Well it is, but it's an addiction. I find a bit surprising, though, that the OP doesn't seem to understand the damage he's done to his marriage.


----------



## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> But you are an addict... you are not in control. I have been a functional alcoholic for a very brief period of my life, so I've been there. I can tell you that, if you haven't been an alcoholic yourself, you have no idea what's it like. I get all the permanent resentment and the walls up, but you are not doing it on purpose. You need your drug once you get addicted. I was lucky because I managed to get rid of the devil after a few months of hell, but not everybody has the strength inside them. I guess it also depends on the length of your addiction. What I'm saying is that I understand why his wife has detached, but it's not really the OP's fault. Well it is, but it's an addiction. I find a bit surprising, though, that the OP doesn't seem to understand the damage he's done to his marriage.


I apologize if my response felt like a dig or dismissal. I believe addiction is part of it. But there is some aspect of control/choice in some instance or no alcoholic would ever be called a recovering one. That’s my view from living the other size such as OP. My husband was mostly on versus the off again drinker.

Don’t think I don’t hear you though. You make a good point.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> I apologize if my response felt like a dig or dismissal. I believe addiction is part of it. But there is some aspect of control/choice in some instance or no alcoholic would ever be called a recovering one. That’s my view from living the other size such as OP. My husband was mostly on versus the off again drinker.
> 
> Don’t think I don’t hear you though. You make a good point.


It's fine... I do agree with you, mostly. But some people have the strength, others don't. And I can't blame the addicts who are not able to get free from the poison alcohol. It's very difficult. On the other hand, I would find it impossible to live with an alcoholic. I've never been on the other side, but I would have hated to live with someone like me, even if my phase was very short-lived.


----------



## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> It's fine... I do agree with you, mostly. But some people have the strength, others don't. And I can't blame the addicts who are not able to get free from the poison alcohol. It's very difficult. On the other hand, I would find it impossible to live with an alcoholic. I've never been on the other side, but I would have hated to live with someone like me, even if my phase was very short-lived.


I never believed my husband would quit completely. It was when he became careless with our son that a flip switch that said, you’re going to have to leave. I couldn’t though, so I stopped leaving our son with him. I didn’t go anywhere basically, very few outings and he just got worse. 

I think it was a multitude of things, some of which I learned after my husbands death in March that was just too hard for him. I supported him in every way and he had so many people right there actually walking him through some of it. He was just starting but he couldn’t take it and he ended his life.

I have empathy for both sides and fully respect your viewpoint and the fact you acknowledge there’s no way you could have been me living the life of spouse of an alcoholic.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> I never believed my husband would quit completely. It was when he became careless with our son that a flip switch that said, you’re going to have to leave. I couldn’t though, so I stopped leaving our son with him. I didn’t go anywhere basically, very few outings and he just got worse.
> 
> I think it was a multitude of things, some of which I learned after my husbands death in March that was just too hard for him. I supported him in every way and he had so many people right there actually walking him through some of it. He was just starting but he couldn’t take it and he ended his life.
> 
> I have empathy for both sides and fully respect your viewpoint and the fact you acknowledge there’s no way you could have been me living the life of spouse of an alcoholic.


I'm sorry about your husband, he must have been very desperate. It's so tragic. Nobody benefits from it, everybody suffers. I think you've been very brave. I truly do. I've been lucky. One day, one of my best friends, a GP, took me to one side and said to me: "You do realise that if you carry on like this you will be dead in 2 years, tops?" I just looked at him and nodded and the same day I stopped. A switch just went off in my head. My marriage was ruined, though. My wife stuck with me until she didn't have to.


----------



## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> I'm sorry about your husband, he must have been very desperate. It's so tragic. Nobody benefits from it, everybody suffers. I think you've been very brave. I truly do. I've been lucky. One day, one of my best friends, a GP, took me to one side and said to me: "You do realise that if you carry on like this you will be dead in 2 years, tops?" I just looked at him and nodded and the same day I stopped. A switch just went off in my head. My marriage was ruined, though. My wife stuck with me until she didn't have to.


I wasn’t going anywhere, but I think deep down he knew how terrible he’d been to me and just couldn’t muster the courage to acknowledge it directly to me and I needed that. He’d started drinking again last summer about this time actually.

I remember he called me one evening and said “I was going to stop and get some beer? Did you want anything?” Which was his way of asking if it was okay. I rarely drank ever, becausehe just took the relaxing factor out of it. He put me in a really uncomfortable position and I finally just was truthful.

Don’t ask me, you’re going to do what you want to do and it’s not fair to put that on me. I’ve never stopped you from drinking, you know how I feel about it. He came home with a 12 pack of bud light (usually he drank bourbon) so in his mind this was lightweight stuff I think was what he thought.

Soon the bud light turned into bud light platinum, 5 or six in under two hours nightly. Then I’m December his team gifted him a bottle of crown. The night he took his life he’d been drinking the BLP, not sure how many of those he had but probably 4 or 5 at least, then he busted into that bottle of crown that had been sitting since Christmas and drank half of it. 

Part of me thinks he didn’t know what he was doing to some extent as he was so drunk. He got in his head, thought I was done with him probably, that his youngest son would be better off? Who knows.
You’re right, no one wins.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> You’re right, no one wins.


No, the alcohol wins. I stopped at one point before stopping completely and I remember exactly that voice in your head that tells you 'come on have another little one'... you give in and the roller coaster starts again.


----------



## BecauseSheWeeps (9 mo ago)

Laurentium said:


> That's true, but I see it as an illness, not a voluntary act. Is it ok to jump ship if your spouse develops a life-threatening illness?


It's not an illness. You make that choice to get there, and you make that choice to stay there. I could easily be an alcoholic if I wanted to. My father was one. And I am not. Same goes for any addiction. You make the choice to shoot up the drug that's in that vial. You make the choice to overeat. I made my choice to eat pizza and cinnamon rolls every day for dinner and then layed around and watched moves all night because I didn't have anything else to do as a teenager. You don't make a choice for your body to grow cancer.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BecauseSheWeeps said:


> It's not an illness. You make that choice to get there, and you make that choice to stay there. I could easily be an alcoholic if I wanted to. My father was one. And I am not. Same goes for any addiction. You make the choice to shoot up the drug that's in that vial. You make the choice to overeat. I made my choice to eat pizza and cinnamon rolls every day for dinner and then layed around and watched moves all night because I didn't have anything else to do as a teenager. You don't make a choice for your body to grow cancer.


I am always fascinated when people talk about alcohol, drugs or sex as an addiction to hear their reaction when you draw a parallel to food. The same people who will tell you that "it's a disease, I can't help it" will tell you that overeating is simply a lack of discipline. It's fairly easy to avoid drugs, alcohol and sex with someone not your spouse, but food is EVERYWHERE, and you have to eat to live. But if you eat the wrong things or too much of them, you're a lazy glutton, whereas if you drink so much it destroys your life, or have sex with people you're not married to after careful planning to cover your tracks, those are things you can't help.

I agree with you. You can't control a chemical addiction, no, but the fallacy that you have one drink or do one line of coke and you're immediately addicted and cannot avoid spiraling into a nightmare of addiction is a bit far fetched. Overeating is, in truth, a choice, and one that can be avoided with discipline. The same is for alcohol, drugs and illicit sex. When you realize that you're losing control of it, you take a step back and stop. It's not easy, but it's simple. If you let it get out of control, that is a choice you made.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Addiction is when your body becomes physically and mentally dependent on alcohol. But it's an old debate. I believe it's an illness. And I'm not the only one. Other think you are weak and self-indulgent. If you've never been dependent on alcohol, you will never understand, believe me.

_It has been proven that there are 2 factors of alcoholism that are beyond the mental control of the sufferer. The first is the physical factor. Alcoholics react differently and process alcohol differently from others. Once an alcoholic takes any alcohol into their system, their body produces chemicals and sends signals of intense pleasure to the brain that create an overpowering desire for more and more. This reaction cannot, to date, be eradicated or cured, which means that no matter how hard the individual tries they cannot regain control of their drinking once they have started. The only relief we have to suggest is to abstain completely. The other factor of alcoholism is the mental obsession. Alcoholics have an obsession, like any obsessive compulsive disorder, their thinking will be deluded when it comes to alcohol. They will spend hours obsessing endlessly over it, thinking about when they can get it, how they can get it etc. They will be convinced (even when the evidence strongly suggests otherwise) that they will be in control this time and that their reason for having a drink is perfectly rational and justified. Many will fall time and time again for the false belief that they can just have one or two and then stop, but if they are alcoholic, this is never going to be possible due to the bodily reaction that alcohol sets off.









Is Alcoholism an illness? | UK-Rehab







www.uk-rehab.com




_


----------



## BecauseSheWeeps (9 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I am always fascinated when people talk about alcohol, drugs or sex as an addiction to hear their reaction when you draw a parallel to food. The same people who will tell you that "it's a disease, I can't help it" will tell you that overeating is simply a lack of discipline. It's fairly easy to avoid drugs, alcohol and sex with someone not your spouse, but food is EVERYWHERE, and you have to eat to live. But if you eat the wrong things or too much of them, you're a lazy glutton, whereas if you drink so much it destroys your life, or have sex with people you're not married to after careful planning to cover your tracks, those are things you can't help.
> 
> I agree with you. You can't control a chemical addiction, no, but the fallacy that you have one drink or do one line of coke and you're immediately addicted and cannot avoid spiraling into a nightmare of addiction is a bit far fetched. Overeating is, in truth, a choice, and one that can be avoided with discipline. The same is for alcohol, drugs and illicit sex. When you realize that you're losing control of it, you take a step back and stop. It's not easy, but it's simple. If you let it get out of control, that is a choice you made.


Exactly!


In Absentia said:


> Addiction is when your body becomes physically and mentally dependent on alcohol. But it's an old debate. I believe it's an illness. And I'm not the only one. Other think you are weak and self-indulgent. If you've never been dependent on alcohol, you will never understand, believe me.
> 
> _It has been proven that there are 2 factors of alcoholism that are beyond the mental control of the sufferer. The first is the physical factor. Alcoholics react differently and process alcohol differently from others. Once an alcoholic takes any alcohol into their system, their body produces chemicals and sends signals of intense pleasure to the brain that create an overpowering desire for more and more. This reaction cannot, to date, be eradicated or cured, which means that no matter how hard the individual tries they cannot regain control of their drinking once they have started. The only relief we have to suggest is to abstain completely. The other factor of alcoholism is the mental obsession. Alcoholics have an obsession, like any obsessive compulsive disorder, their thinking will be deluded when it comes to alcohol. They will spend hours obsessing endlessly over it, thinking about when they can get it, how they can get it etc. They will be convinced (even when the evidence strongly suggests otherwise) that they will be in control this time and that their reason for having a drink is perfectly rational and justified. Many will fall time and time again for the false belief that they can just have one or two and then stop, but if they are alcoholic, this is never going to be possible due to the bodily reaction that alcohol sets off.
> 
> ...


But you allow yourself to get there so therefore, it is by choice. There has been plenty of times where I stepped back because I thought I was getting a little to close for comfort to that area. My problem is food. I stress eat and I'm really trying to retrain my brain to not do it anymore. I need to find a different hobby, other than shoving chocolate in to my mouth any time that I'm pissed off that I'm not getting my way.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BecauseSheWeeps said:


> Exactly!
> 
> But you allow yourself to get there so therefore, it is by choice. There has been plenty of times where I stepped back because I thought I was getting a little to close for comfort to that area. My problem is food. I stress eat and I'm really trying to retrain my brain to not do it anymore. *I need to find a different hobby, other than shoving chocolate in to my mouth* any time that I'm pissed off that I'm not getting my way.


If you figure that one out, please form a support group. I will immediately join. I would offer to be the meeting coordinator but I would just end up bringing snacks. 🤪 😂 I stress eat and I tend to eat my feelings. It's not the same as a chemical dependency, but it is a mental problem that requires work to overcome.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BecauseSheWeeps said:


> Exactly!
> 
> But you allow yourself to get there so therefore, it is by choice. There has been plenty of times where I stepped back because I thought I was getting a little to close for comfort to that area. My problem is food. I stress eat and I'm really trying to retrain my brain to not do it anymore. I need to find a different hobby, other than shoving chocolate in to my mouth any time that I'm pissed off that I'm not getting my way.


You have a predisposition. What it starts with a couple of drinks occasionally turns into physical and mental addiction. Then you are hooked.


----------



## BecauseSheWeeps (9 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> If you figure that one out, please form a support group. I will immediately join. I would offer to be the meeting coordinator but I would just end up bringing snacks. 🤪 😂 I stress eat and I tend to eat my feelings. It's not the same as a chemical dependency, but it is a mental problem that requires work to overcome.


I guess where it can be an illness is that I doubt anybody without some sort of mental instability becomes an addict of a chemical dependency. I don't think I know of anybody that doesn't have mental problems that has become an addict because they were bored and just wanted to get high.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BecauseSheWeeps said:


> I guess where it can be an illness is that I doubt anybody without some sort of mental instability becomes an addict of a chemical dependency. I don't think I know of anybody that doesn't have mental problems that has become an addict because they were bored and just wanted to get high.


I don’t know that I would go so far as to call it mental instability, but I see what you’re saying.


----------



## Corgi Mum (10 mo ago)

I watched my mother die of alcoholic cirrhosis and her experience absolutely convinced me once and for all that alcoholism is a disease.

That woman did not pick up a drink intending to become an alcoholic but it caught her in its grip anyway. Eventually she was carrying a little bottle to work with her in her voluminous handbag. Even after two emergency hospitalizations for seizures she was unable to quit. Her shame was so great she refused all suggestions of treatment, she wasn't like "those people". She didn't _want_ to be an alcoholic but she was, and her disease killed her.


----------



## karmagoround (Aug 27, 2021)

She's gone all cynical on you. Maybe that's the way she sees the world now. Is it just with you? Or do you notice her like that with others as well? 
Are you sure there is no way back in bed with her?
Buy her diamonds. Build her a garden. Better yet... End it quick and go find happiness.


----------



## BecauseSheWeeps (9 mo ago)

Corgi Mum said:


> I watched my mother die of alcoholic cirrhosis and her experience absolutely convinced me once and for all that alcoholism is a disease.
> 
> That woman did not pick up a drink intending to become an alcoholic but it caught her in its grip anyway. Eventually she was carrying a little bottle to work with her in her voluminous handbag. Even after two emergency hospitalizations for seizures she was unable to quit. Her shame was so great she refused all suggestions of treatment, she wasn't like "those people". She didn't _want_ to be an alcoholic but she was, and her disease killed her.


I watched my father die from the same thing, and it convinced me that they do it to themselves. I'm sorry about your mother and I really do feel your pain.


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

It often doesn’t matter why people do what they do, and go down with the sinking ship. You either get in the lifeboat or you don’t.

I’d much prefer my loved ones find happiness from a safe distance, early enough to matter for them.


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

@napastan,

It’s fair to ask her if there is a path to redemption in her view, and what it is exactly.

It’s your choice whether the path seems real and passable, or looks like it leads nowhere you want to be.

It is your duty to yourself to protect yourself in your recovery. It’s more than fair to choose your health over staying to feed and tend to her suffering.

Kudos to you for choosing better for yourself. Seems like a rare achievement, generally.


----------



## Corgi Mum (10 mo ago)

BecauseSheWeeps said:


> I watched my father die from the same thing, and it convinced me that they do it to themselves. I'm sorry about your mother and I really do feel your pain.


I'm sorry about your dad. 😢 Mine is also an alcoholic but it hasn't really affected him physically, not directly anyway, and he's still going strong at 83.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Corgi Mum said:


> I'm sorry about your dad. 😢 Mine is also an alcoholic but it hasn't really affected him physically, not directly anyway, and he's still going strong at 83.


Mine lived to be 93 and he was a bad alcoholic from the time he was about 70 but his body hung on but his mind was completely gone for the last 15 years and really coming and going for 5 years before that.


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> But you are an addict... you are not in control. I have been a functional alcoholic for a very brief period of my life, so I've been there. I can tell you that, if you haven't been an alcoholic yourself, you have no idea what's it like. I get all the permanent resentment and the walls up, but you are not doing it on purpose. You need your drug once you get addicted. I was lucky because I managed to get rid of the devil after a few months of hell, but not everybody has the strength inside them. I guess it also depends on the length of your addiction. What I'm saying is that I understand why his wife has detached, but it's not really the OP's fault. Well it is, but it's an addiction. I find a bit surprising, though, that the OP doesn't seem to understand the damage he's done to his marriage.


I can say that in the beginning of our M, with work and the required customer socializing and travel I drank for years steadily then once almost had a run in with Johnny law. That sobered me up, thinking how bad it would be if ability to work was hampered. Along with W and kids thinking less of me.

I stopped drinking totally, I mean absolutely for a full 15 years. Later W shared she was ok with me having a beer or so now and then with her and our friends socially. That's where I'm at with drinking now. And more than two only at home parties or with good friends when we're all together and stationary. 

Whether or not I was addicted I can't say but I knew I needed a change.


----------



## BecauseSheWeeps (9 mo ago)

Corgi Mum said:


> I'm sorry about your dad. 😢 Mine is also an alcoholic but it hasn't really affected him physically, not directly anyway, and he's still going strong at 83.


That's fantastic that your dad is still going strong. My dad drank gas station vodka every day. Gallons of it.


----------



## napastan (5 mo ago)

Cooper said:


> I think she will always be looking for clues that you are drinking again. She lived with the drunk you for twenty years, if you think she can just sweep that under the rug you are wrong. Living with an alcoholic is a life full of disappointment, and that is the relationship dynamic she is use to. She may never fully be able to trust you or let go of her resentment.
> 
> I have been on both sides of this issue so speak from experience. It's fantastic you got four years of sobriety, be proud of yourself. Yet you need to understand your personal journey through this is different than your wife's or family's journey, you can't expect them to simply accept the new you.
> 
> Appreciate whatever good the day brings, focus on keeping yourself healthy.


That is good advice and a good perspective to keep in mind.


----------



## napastan (5 mo ago)

Marc878 said:


> You chose the bottle now you are paying the price. 4 years sober is a great accomplishment but I don’t think that makes up for the 20 years previous.
> There is no magic fix. You could try taking her out once a week or so if she’d agree to date nights.


"Date nights" sounds like a very good idea. She is not keen on going out or socializing, is not spontaneous. But we did go together to the Alison Kraus-Robert Plant concert recently and enjoyed it together (many attendees were drinking and it felt good to be happy with my bottled water and wide-awake mind). We go out to meals once in a while and went to "Top Gun-Maverick" together. If I keep an eye out for things she would enjoy and give her plenty of lead time it might get into a more regular pattern. She is not spontaneous, likes to hang at home, so need to plan ahead to suggest doing something mutually enjoyable together.


----------



## napastan (5 mo ago)

*Deidre* said:


> I’m rereading my post, it sounds harsh and I’m not dismissing the good work and self improvement on the part of the OP. But, it’s just interesting that he’s stating what he “can’t live with” after four years, when his wife lived with it for 20.
> 
> It’s hard to manufacture emotional closeness so it’s quite possible that she’s done.


That's what I'm afraid of - kind of have resigned myself to the possibility that "she's done" and must mainly concentrate on myself being mentally healthy and a better more perceptive person, a better listener, more empathetic, etc. and see what happens over the long run. But I recognize the possibility that we may never grow close again.


----------



## napastan (5 mo ago)

In Absentia said:


> It is what it is. You've been a functional alcoholic for 20 years. Despite what other people might say, alcoholism is an illness. It's great you managed to overcome it right now, but I understand your wife's worries. Living with an alcoholic is not easy. It will always be at the back of her mind. Give it another year. But then you will be 70. Maybe what you have right now is enough. You are lucky to be alive. Enjoy your life.





TinyTbone said:


> Has she gone to Al-Anon? It could possibly help her cope with the fact you have changed. I went through a rehab and quit a year before I met my wife. She's never seen me drink so that was never an issue. Sadly statistics show many spouses can never accept the change in the other. They that and/counceling to see if the issue can be found and resolved.


We are both familiar with Al-Anon due to another close alcoholic person in our circle. But going to Al-Anon "because of me" or going together to marriage counseling "to work on us" - she seems very resistant to programs like this for repair or exploration purposes. At one point I suggested marriage counseling but she refused. In theory, if we did go to MC, it might help us work through a very drawn-out "amends" the likes of which were nearly impossible during my "Step 9" because how to you replay 20-years of tape in a sit down amends? I think that's why AA has the concept of "living amends" where every day you try to apply yourself in the relationship in a positive fashion with few if any expectations of forgiveness or acknowledgement. Once I fantasized about being "out on my own again" as my new sober start seeking a fresh start, a clean slate and finding a "true soul-mate" - but at turning 70 next month, that ain't happenin'


----------



## napastan (5 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Sometimes there is too much damage to overcome. 20 years of your life down the drain, I have to wonder why she stayed at all. You should probably just rip off the band-aid.


I don't know what you mean by rip-off the bank-aid?


----------



## napastan (5 mo ago)

Bluesclues said:


> My husband has been sober for almost two years. In some ways his sobriety has been more difficult for me to navigate emotionally than his active addiction. For the first year I didn’t trust his sobriety would last. The second year, when it became apparent that this was something he was truly embracing, I realized I would never be the priority in his life. I wasn’t when he was drinking and now sobriety was his priority. It left me feeling sad, detached and lost.
> 
> I have made steps because I realize this is now a me problem. It is totally unfair that he got to act as **ty as he did for all those years and it is up to me to deal with my resentments. He doesn’t even know what an emotionally abusive ** he was then so he doesn’t understand why I flinch with genuine niceties like “how are you feeling” and “how was your day”. What has helped is actually having conversations about it, conversations started by him. Asking what it was like, apologizing. 12 steps is great but you can only make amends for what you know you did. And when you are making amends to a spouse that you regularly abused by neglect, you can only make a “living amends”, which is treating them better now. But you need to TELL them you are doing that. Just being caring and not acknowledging your past uncaring doesn’t help build trust.
> 
> I noticed you downplayed the impact of your drinking with the “no DUI”, “no abuse” caveats. That is complete BS. Sounds like you are trying to say you aren’t as bad someone else. You were bad to your wife.


It is interesting about your skeptical reaction to his (the recovering-alcoholic's) "genuine niceties" like asking "how was your day." because I've gotten that very same reaction - as though my wife thinks by showing interest, I am just spouting drivel to hear myself talk and don't really mean it. Must be a reaction programmed in her mind by years of my not really knowing what I was saying or not being of an empathetic, clear-headed state of mind to "hear' the answer and possibly begin a meaningful dialog about "what did actually happen today"- rather than heading for the couch and TV with another glass of wine.


----------



## napastan (5 mo ago)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> I
> 
> 
> If I may.. As the wife of my late husband who passed away in March of this year. He was a high functioning alcholic. Great career, no DUI's, however, unlike you there was mental and verbal abuse. But I can wholeheartedly relate and I feel bad for you. My husband NEVER went more than about 8 months not drinking our entire 15 years together. Even then, I can't say I believe he was sober comepletely as he'd hid it before (as if I wouldn't smell it or know) and I mean, in those 'sober' days/weeks/months, ect... I was ALWAYS, ALWAYS on my guard and waiting for the ball to drop and things to return the way they'd been.
> ...


I greatly appreciate your empathy and perspective. I only wish I could muster the wherewithal to have a conversation like that with my wife. It would definitely be helpful to break the inertia and make little course corrections by airing out our thoughts and points of view which neither of were raised to be any good at doing. In our families we internalized everything and there it sits..


----------



## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

napastan said:


> I greatly appreciate your empathy and perspective. I only wish I could muster the wherewithal to have a conversation like that with my wife. It would definitely be helpful to break the inertia and make little course corrections by airing out our thoughts and points of view which neither of were raised to be any good at doing. In our families we internalized everything and there it sits..


You HAVE to brother, she more than likely never will and a great place to start would me " (insert pet name or wife's name), I need to talk to you and even mustering the courage to say those words is hard for me given our backgrounds and how we were taught to internalize things.


----------



## napastan (5 mo ago)

karmagoround said:


> She's gone all cynical on you. Maybe that's the way she sees the world now. Is it just with you? Or do you notice her like that with others as well?
> Are you sure there is no way back in bed with her?
> Buy her diamonds.'Build her a garden. Better yet... End it quick and go find happiness.


 That's an astute observation that she's gone all cynical on me. Has had some severe and deep emotional strains, not just from me, that now make her anything but "happy and spontaneous." When it comes to my ideas, her first verbalization is frequently questioning or unsupportive. She is, owing to career and personal makeup, quite business-like and purpose-driven...doesn't care for brainstorming, spontaneity or exploring decisions too many times - "fix and move forward" she likes to say.

In my sobriety, seeing things more clearly I'd like to think, perhaps our innate personality differences and communications challenges are coming into more clear relief. But in AA, they also have this concept of "living amends" where you continuously try to work on being a better person, listening better, being more empathetic, being a better companion. Nonetheless, I have resigned to myself that it will take time, and that there is probably irreparable damage to the relationship. If I were younger, I might try to start anew. But given that we are probably together for the long-haul - we definitely do have a lot of things in common and have shared in life - I can continue working and hoping for improvement, for example, someone suggested date nights. I plan to try that, but she'll nix most of my ideas.


----------



## napastan (5 mo ago)

PieceOfSky said:


> @napastan,
> 
> It’s fair to ask her if there is a path to redemption in her view, and what it is exactly.
> 
> ...


Excellent points, well taken.


----------



## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

They say if it takes twenty years to walk into the forest - it takes twenty years to walk out.

implement change. The work is up to you. You created this over 20 years so you should expect the repair portion to take equally as long.


----------

