# I'm so lonely



## TriHouse (Aug 9, 2016)

I've been starved for an emotional connection with my husband for almost our entire marriage, but I just realized what "my problem" is almost 3 years ago. Since then, I've read every book, talked to every friend, been to 3 marriage counselors, a priest and a marriage encounter, and I feel like I've learned so much about myself, what I need, and what my husband needs, but my marriage still sucks. My husband absolutely refuses to cooperate. He insists that I blame him, he'll never be enough, and that I need to go talk to someone outside our marriage and fix myself before worrying about involving him. I know how that sounds, and that probably did describe me for the first half of our marriage, but for THREE years, I've stopped blaming, I've taken accountability for my own needs, and I have talked to therapists (who agree with me that it's HIS turn). 
It's so frustrating. We can get along just fine, enjoy each other's company, have a great time, but then sometimes I have a bad day, and I feel a little less confident in myself, or I notice that it's been 8 days since he asked me how my day was, or he makes a comment 3 days in a row about my parenting or the house, and I just need some reassurance. So I find a way to talk to him about it. 
This is where I keep thinking I'm doing something wrong. It doesn't matter what I say, when I say it, how concise I make my point, how much I say "I" instead of "you," how gentle and encouraging I am, it's like the very instant he senses me being vulnerable, he attacks me. It could be something passive aggressive like "I have all this planned for [some point in the future] and you didn't even give me a chance, but now you'll never know" or it could be something incredibly shaming like "lower your voice, what kind of mother are you to talk about this when our children are home?" I'm not an abused little kitten, I react. I've been working on not reacting for for almost 3 months now, but it's not working. The less I react, the harder and faster the insults fly from him. He wants me to react. If he is every given the option to choose compassion or choose shame, he chooses shame every. damn. time. We go on these horrible fight binges for 3 or 4 days once a month. The rest of the time, things are great. He'll wash my car, he'll keep the kids when I need a break from motherhood duties, we cuddle on the couch, he'll pick up a chocolate bar for me, but I just feel so lonely. I have no one to talk to, like, really share my heart with. I don't know what to do. Most of the time, I realize that I deserve to have a connection with my husband, but when I think about packing my bags and taking our children to my mother's house (because he won't leave), I feel so selfish. I wonder if something is wrong with me because I can't just be happy with a clean car and a night out. I wish he would ask me how my day was sometimes, or sacrifice an afternoon doing something I enjoy with a smile on his face. How do I know when it's time to divorce?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How long have the two of you been married? How old are the two of you?

How many hours a week do the two of you spend together, doing date-like things, just the two of you?

What sort for things do you do for yourself? Do you have friends who you do thing with? If so what kinds of things and how often?


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Try marriage counseling.

I sense a vast communication chasm in your opening post.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

When he starts the shaming, try Active Listening. 

"You feel like I should lower my voice and not talk about certain things around the kids. I am sorry if my voice seemed too loud to you. Which things do you not think I should bring up around the kids?"

Active Listening takes the focus off you and puts it on him. It is important to not react, though. Just listen and try to hear where he is coming from.

This all assumes that you don't want to just divorce him, which might also be a good idea. He may never be able to be supportive and a true partner to you.


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## TriHouse (Aug 9, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> How long have the two of you been married? How old are the two of you?
> 
> How many hours a week do the two of you spend together, doing date-like things, just the two of you?
> 
> What sort for things do you do for yourself? Do you have friends who you do thing with? If so what kinds of things and how often?


We met when we were 19 and 21. We got pregnant 3 years later, married 3 years after that. We've been married for 7 years now, and are 33 and 35. 

As for the rest, there are a lot of things unraveling in those areas right now. I've become resentful of arranging dates because we don't really connect when we go out. He usually talks me out of what I want to do, and there aren't a lot of safe subjects for me to talk about with him anymore. I've resorted to nodding and smiling a lot because he's not respectful of my opinions like he would be to someone else. We get away once a month or so and talk about food we like or what the kids have been doing. 

As for friends, I'm in a bad spot. I had a really close knit group of women in my neighborhood when things started to really fall apart 3 years ago, and I could rely on most of them to vent and lift my spirits, but one of them chose that moment to "break up with me" via email during the height of my stress, and everything fell apart. In an effort to not take sides, most of my other friends in this group included us both in everything, but my pain from the whole experience made it difficult for me to trust them after that. I didn't have anyone to talk to about what she did to me, and then because I didn't want my shame to trickle back to her, I didn't have anyone to talk to about my marriage. I've put a lot of effort in the last 6 months to a year to build some new relationships, but it's hard. Adult women all have their own stuff going on, I can't find anyone who can really hold space for me too. 

Actually the most recent fight had much to do with this. 
I asked my husband to go with me to a neighborhood block party. He's not a joiner, and we live in a neighborhood filled with block parties and progressive dinners, totally old school awesomeness, but I have a really hard time fitting in because I'm always alone with my kids. So anyway, he is willing to go, but the day comes and he is dragging his feet like crazy. He hasn't touched me in 3 days, our daughter was getting ready for sleepaway camp which was stressful, and my business is in its slow season, so money is stressful. I gently asked him on the way to the party if he could please just put a smile on his face, because him attending just to say he attended, isn't really checking the box for me, it would be nice if he could make it easier for me to enjoy myself at the party. He tells me he was planning on taking us to dinner that night and that's how I could have enjoyed myself with him, and that he absolutely did not drag his feet (my kids and I stood in the driveway for almost 20 minutes waiting for him after he was presumably ready when we walked out the door). I let it go, I didn't make him stay after other husbands left that he was talking to, and I went home and took a nap. When it was time to take the kids to Open Gym, I asked him if he would go to dinner with me, he said he was tired. I called 2 friends and my mom to see if anyone could get a drink with me, but they all had plans. I picked up a bottle of wine that night and my husband's favorite ice cream, but he went straight to bed when we got home. The next day, I asked him to talk, and one sentence into me telling him I'm upset he's shaming me in the worst way and I don't even remember what all he said (I usually just say please stop saying that, please don't be mean) before I got so worked up I shoved my jewelry box the floor and smashed it into a dozen pieces. 
It doesn't matter how many times I apologize, I'm crazy, I need help, and he didn't do anything wrong. As far as he's concerned, I proved him right that I'm completely unreasonable, and put myself back at square one.


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## TriHouse (Aug 9, 2016)

jld said:


> When he starts the shaming, try Active Listening.
> 
> "You feel like I should lower my voice and not talk about certain things around the kids. I am sorry if my voice seemed too loud to you. Which things do you not think I should bring up around the kids?"
> 
> ...


I really don't want to divorce him, but I'm so afraid he will never be a true partner. 

I'll try active listening, but isn't that kind of a dead end for someone who doesn't have any intention of an emotional connection? I mean, I'm fairly certain his goal is to cut emotional connection as quickly as possible, and honestly, as long as I honor that, we ARE fine. If I leave him alone, he's happy.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

TriHouse said:


> I really don't want to divorce him, but I'm so afraid he will never be a true partner.
> 
> I'll try active listening, but isn't that kind of a dead end for someone who doesn't have any intention of an emotional connection? I mean, I'm fairly certain his goal is to cut emotional connection as quickly as possible, and honestly, as long as I honor that, we ARE fine. If I leave him alone, he's happy.


Active Listening may not work for a number of reasons. It is just something to try, if you think it may help you.

Are you sure you can continue without his desiring any kind of emotional connection with you? 

That could surely leave you vulnerable to an affair. Most of us need some sort of emotional connection to our partners. It is pretty normal to want to love and feel loved by a spouse.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Have you read the book "Divorce Busting"? I think it would help you.


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## TriHouse (Aug 9, 2016)

I love your quote, by the way, jld. I've told my husband so many times that I deeply crave feeling like I can just tell him how I feel and have him hold space for my feelings. Don't walk away, don't translate, don't defend, just hold space for me.


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## TriHouse (Aug 9, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> Have you read the book "Divorce Busting"? I think it would help you.


No, I haven't. I'll check it out. A Distant Partner was incredibly helpful, as was anything by Brene Brown (which isn't specifically marriage related).


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TriHouse said:


> I gently asked him on the way to the party if he could please just put a smile on his face, because him attending just to say he attended, isn't really checking the box for me, it would be nice if he could make it easier for me to enjoy myself at the party. He tells me he was planning on taking us to dinner that night and that's how I could have enjoyed myself with him, and that he absolutely did not drag his feet (my kids and I stood in the driveway for almost 20 minutes waiting for him after he was presumably ready when we walked out the door).


He sounds like a very unpleasant person. 

But you are also goading him on. He goes to the party, but you then tell him to put a smile on his face. That’s picking at him. It’s not all about checking your boxes. I am sure that once you said that to him, it was all downhill. If you had simply told him that you were so pleased that he was going and you hope he had a good time might have completely changed how the evening transpired.

And then of course he says that he was going to take you out to dinner but you insisted on the party. I’ll bet that was the first that you heard that he intended to take you out to dinner.

You two are playing a ‘got you game’. It’s not uncommon in marriages that are not going well.

It sounds like he’s as unhappy in this marriage as you are. 

The two of you need to get into counseling and figure out how to communicate more effectively. If he will not go, then you need to go. Having a counselor work with you on how you can better act/react in situations like this could completely change your marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TriHouse said:


> No, I haven't. I'll check it out. A Distant Partner was incredibly helpful, as was anything by Brene Brown (which isn't specifically marriage related).


When you read Divorce Busting, pay special attention to the chapter on how to unilaterally introduce change into a marriage.


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## TriHouse (Aug 9, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> When you read Divorce Busting, pay special attention to the chapter on how to unilaterally introduce change into a marriage.


Thank you, I just ordered it on Amazon.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

TriHouse said:


> I love your quote, by the way, jld. I've told my husband so many times that I deeply crave feeling like I can just tell him how I feel and have him hold space for my feelings. Don't walk away, don't translate, don't defend, just hold space for me.


Totally agree, hon.


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## TriHouse (Aug 9, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> He sounds like a very unpleasant person.
> 
> But you are also goading him on. He goes to the party, but you then tell him to put a smile on his face. That’s picking at him. It’s not all about checking your boxes. I am sure that once you said that to him, it was all downhill. If you had simply told him that you were so pleased that he was going and you hope he had a good time might have completely changed how the evening transpired.
> 
> ...



Yes, you're absolutely right. I know I should have just kept my mouth shut in hindsight, but that is my major complaint. I'm exhausted. I do not feel that he accepts me because we are only in a good place as long as I'm maintaining his happiness and my own at 100%. I was super nervous and stressed on the way to the party. The fact that I asked him to put a smile on his face really didn't even have that much to do with him and he even admitted to me later that he knew that, yet he showed me no compassion, no grace. I'm just really tired. I'm not sure I'm strong enough to do all the things I need to do long enough and without falter to change his course. I keep trying and failing and things are getting no better.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Clearly there are problems in your marriage.

But what I see is that you are just not happy in yourself. If I were you, that's where I'd put my energy, in making myself happy. Just ignore him mostly right now and work on yourself and your own happiness.

What would make you feel fulfilled that has nothing to do with the marriage? Are there things that you are interested in?


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

TriHouse said:


> I really don't want to divorce him, but I'm so afraid he will never be a true partner.
> 
> I'll try active listening, but isn't that kind of a dead end for someone who doesn't have any intention of an emotional connection? I mean, I'm fairly certain his goal is to cut emotional connection as quickly as possible, and honestly, as long as I honor that, we ARE fine. If I leave him alone, he's happy.


Sometimes when my husband doesn't engage or is grumpy, I ignore him completely. 
I can be an absolute Ice Queen at times. 
He's happy for a few hours/days but soon comes around & listens, asks me questions etc. 

Would that work for you? 
Depends how much he cares about you. 




Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## TriHouse (Aug 9, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> Clearly there are problems in your marriage.
> 
> But what I see is that you are just not happy in yourself. If I were you, that's where I'd put my energy, in making myself happy. Just ignore him mostly right now and work on yourself and your own happiness.
> 
> What would make you feel fulfilled that has nothing to do with the marriage? Are there things that you are interested in?


Thank you. I've been working on that quite a bit too. I used to be really sensitive to his bad moods too, but I've found that putting energy into my own happiness helps me respond better to him and for me. 
I enjoy working out and I have a creative business that gives me a lot of pleasure. I struggle with staying focused though. When things are good and I'm happy, I naturally lean toward him and want to share that with him... then I start feeling lonely again, and I forget that I can't trust him until it's too late. Old habits die hard, I guess. I can't afford a counselor until business picks up again in October, but I'm glad I found this site in the meantime.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

He is passive aggressive. He isn't going to change, its as simple as that. This is what they do. You cannot approach them in any way in regards to ANYTHING that they will take as a criticism, even if it isn't. They are defensive, and every single thing is YOUR fault. I heard that same line from MY ex, that I needed to "fix myself." They are never, ever in the wrong, and they don't give a damn about how you feel or how they treat you. Everything is ALL about them. You can work on yourself til you turn blue, it wont make any difference in how he behaves or treats you, because THIS is who he is. 

I was married to this. I divorced it. Never a moment of regret for doing so either. 


So this is him...can you live this way for the next 40 years of your life?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

I would have to agree on the passive aggressive behavior. Has our H alway been like this? He appears to be totally out of the relationship and family in general.


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## TriHouse (Aug 9, 2016)

Yeswecan said:


> I would have to agree on the passive aggressive behavior. Has our H alway been like this? He appears to be totally out of the relationship and family in general.


Probably. His whole family avoids conflict, and his mother gets horribly uncomfortable in a lot of situations. She even tells my kids that they didn't do anything wrong if I'm scolding them for doing something wrong. They are all very shame-driven.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

s


TriHouse said:


> Probably. His whole family avoids conflict, and his mother gets horribly uncomfortable in a lot of situations. She even tells my kids that they didn't do anything wrong if I'm scolding them for doing something wrong. They are all very shame-driven.


Conflict avoidance. Even you expressing your concerns with your relationship with your H it appears it is more conflict avoidance on your H part. If your H simply does not talk about to avoid conflict then there is no conflict. This in itself causes conflict!!! 

Intimacy Killer: Conflict Avoidance. | The Esposito Institute


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

I can feel in your posts how unhappy you are. Can you guys get into marriage counseling...there is a huge communication beak down here. 
My husband can be very similar to yours...can go days without asking how my day was and you start to get the feeling that he doesn't really care about you.
I get it...marriage counseling can definitely help. It also provides you a space to say want you need to say about how you are feeling without him attackingyou.
I wish you luck. 


Sent from my iPhone


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## TriHouse (Aug 9, 2016)

I don't think I'll get him to marriage counseling anytime soon. I'm so upset. I had a completely separate issue with my son last night. H is harder on him than my daughter, and son is more sensitive already, but he's a good dad and means well. He doesn't raise his voice really, but he gets so serious and intensely upset when my son makes a mistake. (He's 5). Anyway, H bought him a new toy yesterday, and one of the pieces came apart by no fault of my son, and he was SO upset. He thought my husband was going to be mad at him. We talked through it, fixed the toy, and when I told H this morning that I wanted him to let son know that he's not upset about his toy, and proud of him for taking care of his belongings by fixing it when it broke, he tells me he does not think it's a coincidence that my son is scared of my husband when we're fighting. He blamed me for planting the seed. Whatever, I know it's not true, but when you throw around terms like conflict avoidance and passive aggression, I feel like all we're missing here is spot lights and a band for his amazing performance.


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

That sounds like my H. My son is 6 and if a toy breaks he automatically flies off the handle and gets really upset. My son will usually come to me nervous about his father finding out...


Sent from my iPhone


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

TriHouse said:


> I don't think I'll get him to marriage counseling anytime soon.


I can pretty much guarantee that you will never get him to agree to MC. He thinks that YOU are the one with the problem. Its PA protocol.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

3xnocharm is correct, there's nothing you can do to change him. That is what's so weird about passive aggressiveness. It is like height or eye color---if you've got it, that's what you are for life.

It's his way of interfacing with the world. Question is, can you take it for the rest of the marriage.

You will get very little accomplished (agreed upon), he will have to be right about the way of doing everything.

Your personality will change as you learn sneaky ways of working around him. And you will become an advanced eggshell walker.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

TriHouse said:


> Thank you, I just ordered it on Amazon.


TriHouse, how many self help books are you going to read - on your *OWN *as usual - and hope for a miracle (which none of these lame books will give you)?

You've tried *numerous* times to go to marriage counseling, it didn't help. You did a marriage encounter, talked to your clergyman, and it didn't help. You keep reading all these self-help books and trying to employ all these sure-fire methods to get him to engage with you, and it *doesn't* help. You can't drag the unwilling.

Aren't you damned tied of doing 110% of the work all by yourself while this miserable sour puss does NOTHING to make things better and instead degrades you and verbally abuses you in order to make you feel guilty or foolish because you want so badly to go have a good time for a lousy few hours at a neighborhood barbecue? Is he *that much *of a nasty ass that he can't even give you THAT?

I'm sorry, but I disagree that you were 'picking on him' just because he was wearing his usual miserable *scowl* and you asked him to please put on a pleasant face as you went into the party. It's downright humiliating to try to socialize with people while your miserable scowling husband is walking around acting as though you shot his mother in the town square, for God's sakes. 

He's just not happy unless he's making you miserable. That's what gives him pleasure. YOUR pain.

And the sad part is, instead of you seeing the writing on the wall - that he's completely and totally *disengaged *from you emotionally and physically - you're instead hopping around like a trained seal, desperately trying to make it work when he's NOT invested in the marriage.

Sometimes, you just need to know when to fold your hand and get up from the table.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

TriHouse said:


> I don't think I'll get him to marriage counseling anytime soon. I'm so upset. I had a completely separate issue with my son last night. H is harder on him than my daughter, and son is more sensitive already, but he's a good dad and means well. He doesn't raise his voice really, but he gets so serious and intensely upset when my son makes a mistake. (He's 5). Anyway, H bought him a new toy yesterday, and one of the pieces came apart by no fault of my son, and he was SO upset. He thought my husband was going to be mad at him. We talked through it, fixed the toy, and when I told H this morning that I wanted him to let son know that he's not upset about his toy, and proud of him for taking care of his belongings by fixing it when it broke, he tells me he does not think it's a coincidence that my son is scared of my husband when we're fighting. He blamed me for planting the seed. Whatever, I know it's not true, but when you throw around terms like conflict avoidance and passive aggression, I feel like all we're missing here is spot lights and a band for his amazing performance.


You may think he's a great father, but he sounds like a nasty bully and your poor child is afraid of him. 

When you've got a young child afraid to tell his father that a piece broke on his toy, that's speaks VOLUMES - and *none* of it good. Much like he controls you with his anger and verbal abuse, he's got your poor kid intimidated by him too.

I fear you're so used to this abusive man that you can't really even see the forest for the trees anymore. This IS your normal. And believe me, it's NOT normal. :frown2:


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

TriHouse said:


> .. . . I'm so afraid he will never be a true partner.
> 
> I'll try active listening, *but isn't that kind of a dead end for someone who doesn't have any intention of an emotional connection? I mean, I'm fairly certain his goal is to cut emotional connection as quickly as possible*, and honestly, as long as I honor that, we ARE fine. If I leave him alone, he's happy.



You are right, TriHouse, he will never be a true partner, in an emotional sense. You will be alone emotionally to a great extent. Can you do that?

Your instinct is spot on; active listening will be useless. The only way it would work, is if he had the idea first. But even then, he doesn't want to hear anything he isn't interested in; so what would be the point of it?





TriHouse said:


> I love your quote, by the way, jld. I've told my husband so many times that I deeply crave feeling like* I can just tell him how I feel* and have him hold space for my feelings. Don't walk away, don't translate, don't defend, just hold space for me.



Sometimes he might listen. But only if you share feelings that put him in a positive light. I remember early on in my relationship with my H, just openly saying what I felt about [something], and his response would be a defensive "you think that I [weird, unrelated minor detail]" He would defensively project all sorts of unintended meanings into what I would say. And this is where what I mentioned in my last post comes in: your personality will start to change. You will begin to learn (at lightening mental speed), how to quickly, pre-edit your words and comments; so that you can have a conversation without setting him off. It is _exhausting_. Which brings us to:





TriHouse said:


> Yes, you're absolutely right. I know I should have just kept my mouth shut in hindsight, but that is my major complaint.* I'm exhausted*. I do not feel that he accepts me because we are only in a good place as long as I'm maintaining his happiness and my own at 100%.* I was super nervous and stressed on the way to the party.* The fact that I asked him to put a smile on his face really didn't even have that much to do with him and he even admitted to me later that he knew that, yet he showed me no compassion, no grace.* I'm just really tired.* I'm not sure I'm strong enough to do all the things I need to do long enough and without falter to change his course. *I keep trying and failing and things are getting no better.*



You're already starting to feel it. This is the result of having to do a mental (and therefore emotional) dance and eggshell walk. You have to keep predicting what the effect of anything you might say would have. In the couple of seconds before you respond, you have to quickly edit out anything offensive. If you really want something; but you know he doesn't, you have to give up on what you want; but keep up a smiley face, or he'll accuse you of being a drag, a downer,"why are you always in a bad mood?". Prepare to get more and more exhausted.






TriHouse said:


> Thank you. I've been working on that quite a bit too. I used to be really sensitive to his bad moods too,* but I've found that putting energy into my own happiness helps me respond better to him and for me.
> I enjoy working out and I have a creative business that gives me a lot of pleasure.* I struggle with staying focused though. When things are good and I'm happy,* I naturally lean toward him and want to share that with him... then I start feeling lonely again, and I forget that I can't trust him until it's too late.* Old habits die hard, I guess. I can't afford a counselor until business picks up again in October, but I'm glad I found this site in the meantime.



You are wise to work on yourself. It took me a couple of years to figure it out. Retreat within. Once again, your personality is changing because of your interactions and adaptations to your husband. Normal to an extent in marriage; but that's not what we're talking about here.

One tip, might be useful, might not. Be careful about sharing how great working out makes you feel, or some small triumph you had at work; or whatever. If he feels in the slightest way threatened, or he isn't having success at his workout routine,,or at his job; he will punish you in some way for being successful.

This can take many forms. If you were married to a "direct" person. They might say, "shlt!! you're in great shape. God, I'm so jealous, gotta get my asz to the gym"

A passive aggressive person cannot do that. So, when they feel an emotion such as inadequacy, jealousy, envy; it can't be expressed directly and openly.

But he'll 'get you back' in some way. "Punishments" vary amongst PA people. But I would predict, at a later date (if you told him you've squatted 150lbs, and your butt is hard as a rock)----you'll be told that he can see cellulite on your butt, maybe during sex, to make it really hurt.





TriHouse said:


> Probably. *His whole family avoids conflict,* and his mother gets horribly uncomfortable in a lot of situations. She even tells my kids that they didn't do anything wrong if I'm scolding them for doing something wrong. They are all very shame-driven.


So, you know this isn't, in a way, something that he is doing "to *you*". This is how he is wired, for everything. Which brings relief, but also makes it harder to think of leaving. He was raised this way. It's not really his fault.



> He's not a joiner,


No, my H isn't either. But that makes sense, doesn't it? When you join something, you have to interact and co-operate with other people. Any club or organization will have rules and terms and etiquette; I think it must be very draining for PA people to have to "get along with others". Usually, when they get home, they are ready to snap. They've played nice with others all day, hated it---and are ready to take it out on someone who has to take it from them---their spouse.



> before I got so worked up I shoved my jewelry box the floor and smashed it into a dozen pieces


This is more of what I talked of before. You are trying and trying to keep the peace. To reach him. To placate him. You have normal human selfishness, and you'd like your own needs met too, sometimes---you're having to forfeit this a lot, to stop him from headfcking you.

It's EXHAUSTING. So, like a dam holding back too much water, eventually cracks develop, and you SNAP. Physical acting out, like throwing things on the floor, FEEL so good. You're not holding back, you are being yourself. No editing, no mental gymnastics. Just take that damm object and throw it as hard as you can.

Which, although understandable, is childish and not adult. And, your PA hubby, has just scored big time. Now he can accurately say that YOU are the unreasonable one. Look what a terrible temper you have. And you say *he* is causing the problems???



> incredibly shaming like "lower your voice,


FWIW, and I don't know if this is just a PA thing, but I got this a lot too. And I had a squeaky, timid mouse voice back then. But, when you get emotional, a human being's voice will tend to rise in volume. See, there it is again, emotion. It's making him uncomfortable, and OTHERS might start to clue in that there's something going on between you guys. I got (and still do get, though not as much) "shhhhed", usually when I get excited for any reason, and get emotionally expressive. It happened *a lot* when we were first together. Sometimes, H would take the remote control and keep turning up the volume on the TV, a PA way of saying "shut up". I could have been talking about some music I liked, or some great new anything. He just didn't want to hear me talk, or participate.

Why not say, "hon, can we talk about this later, I'm beat", or "i'm watching the game right now, hang on a sec"----I don't know. My h is a little bit better at this now. But I'll be honest, it took decades for him to make this change

===========================

It's difficult Trihouse, because your H does wonderful things too. He cleans your car, he buys you a chocolate bar, he takes his turn with the kids. Sounds like you get non-sexual physical affection too--usually a biggie for women.

And all this behavior occurs on a spectrum. We're all a bit PA to some extent, at various times in our life, for whatever reason.

But as a dominant character trait, it is really difficult to live with.

My H is not violent, he has a very generous nature. I don't know why he learned to interact this way.

I've learned all sorts of tricks and stratagems.

One thing, actually almost humorous, when I am fixing things to eat, I will call out to H: "what would you like?", "can I get you anything?"

He can't directly answer me. When I realized he was this way about stupid stuff, that isn't even related to me, I realized I could handle it, and not get hurt.

I know that if I say, "would you like some hot chocolate?" there will be a pause of about 5 seconds (this usually means 'yes'). After 5 seconds, he will say "yes". We're good to go.

Sometimes, he will wait 5 seconds, then say 'no'. I know that this means, 'yes, but I don't want you to know that I want hot chocolate' (at least, I think that's what it means, I don't try to figure it out anymore)

So, I prep a second cup of hot chocolate. After the milk (enough for two) is ready. I make mine. At this point, he'll say "you know, yeah, I would like some hot chocolate". I say "no problem", serve up, we're good to go.

If I make the extra cup, and it turns out to be a real "no". That's okay, I make the extra hot chocolate, and refrigerate it. I'll have it tomorrow.

It's crazy, but this is how I've learned to live. Only possible because I do believe he loves me and cares about me.

And, like I said before, it is very, very, difficult to get things accomplished.

I wrote a book. Hope this gives you some insight into your own situation, and what you might be dealing with, long term.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

TriHouse said:


> I've been working on not reacting for for almost 3 months now, but it's not working. The less I react, the harder and faster the insults fly from him. He wants me to react. If he is every given the option to choose compassion or choose shame, he chooses shame every. damn. time. We go on these horrible fight binges for 3 or 4 days once a month. The rest of the time, things are great. He'll wash my car, he'll keep the kids when I need a break from motherhood duties, we cuddle on the couch, he'll pick up a chocolate bar for me, but I just feel so lonely. I have no one to talk to, like, really share my heart with. I don't know what to do. Most of the time, I realize that I deserve to have a connection with my husband, but when I think about packing my bags and taking our children to my mother's house (because he won't leave), I feel so selfish.


Bunch of things going on here. First, about the 'less you react' thing. Did you read the book The Dance Of Anger? It talks about how when you change _your _patterns, the people in your life will do what the author calls "Change back!" behavior. Meaning, they want to go back to the old way of living. They want YOU to go back to how you used to be because they were comfortable with it. They either don't understand or don't CARE, that _you _were miserable. My guess is he subconsciously is trying to make you give up and just go back to who you were.

When you say shame, do you mean that he shames you? Or that he acts shamed?

How many female friends do you have? Do you have a best friend? How much time a week do you spend with your female friends?

When you say 'he won't leave,' it makes me want to ask more about your relationship. Do you have problems when you stand up for yourself? Does he bully you? Do you feel belittled?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

notmyrealname4 said:


> You are right, TriHouse, he will never be a true partner, in an emotional sense. You will be alone emotionally to a great extent. Can you do that?
> 
> Your instinct is spot on; active listening will be useless. The only way it would work, is if he had the idea first. But even then, he doesn't want to hear anything he isn't interested in; so what would be the point of it?
> 
> ...


Wow. I feel like I just read my life story. Yeah, ignore my previous post. You will NEVER get him to change. His shame-based life is too toxic for him to ever get out of it. I changed my mind. I was going to try to help you find ways to fix this, but after reading the rest of the posts, I've changed my mind.

I suggest you (1) work on your earning ability so you can live by yourself - go to school, improve your skills, whatever; (2) continue going to therapy by yourself to rebuild your self esteem - this is THE most important thing you need to get out of all this: learning to love yourself; with that, you can do anything; (3) do continue to work on making more female friends - take a class, join a group, start a hobby, just start talking to other women, go to all those block parties without him (let him stay home and watch the kids) and talk talk talk, until you weed out and are left with women you feel a connection with; (4) reconnect with your own family; (5) read everything you can find on dealing with passive aggressiveness; (6) read this book, too; it may not apply to you, but again, it may, and if so, you NEED to read it: Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men; and (7) find a great child psychologist, and start taking your children to him/her. If you don't, they will internalize the bullsh&t he pulls and grow up hating themselves, not understanding it's HIS issues, not theirs.


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## MikeTO (Aug 18, 2016)

Write him a love letter without attacking/judging. In the letter ask him to solve the problem for you. Men love solving problems, it makes him feel good.
Also praise him for the little things he does for you. Great job. Let him have his time and be patient he will probably come around if you stop keep on trying to talk to him.

It will take time since you were blaming him. He is upset and he isn't going to forgive you over night.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

You are getting good advice here.

If he does not un-crack his Chest Nut...you will be beating your own and get arrested!

Marriage counseling may work.

Else? I hear the clip-clop of flip-flops heading down the driveway...Another Walk away Wife, WAW.

I have been to some of those block parties in the Ft. Lauderdale area. Wow! Talk about beer drinkers!


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

IMO marriage counseling will not help your marriage. In order for it to help, your husband has to think he has contributed to the problems, and want to fix his side. From what you wrote, your husband believes he does nothing wrong, and when he does do something wrong, it is your fault that he did it.

You have to decide if you want to live that way for the next several decades...or until he feels entitled enough (because you are such a nag, not there for him, critical, etc.) to replace you with someone else.

I'm sorry your marriage is like this. I understand exactly how you feel. My husband only began to change when he realized I was counting the years until I can leave. And now I don't trust or care if he changes because I don't believe a person can change after years being passive aggressive, controlling, manipulative, and blaming me for the legitimate frustrations I was feeling.

Not trying to thread jack, but just showing you what you have to look forward to.

You need to start getting your ducks together, and educating yourself about divorce and life after divorce.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

MikeTO said:


> Write him a love letter without attacking/judging. In the letter ask him to solve the problem for you. Men love solving problems, it makes him feel good.
> Also praise him for the little things he does for you. Great job. Let him have his time and be patient he will probably come around if you stop keep on trying to talk to him.
> 
> It will take time since you were blaming him. He is upset and he isn't going to forgive you over night.


How does one "vote down" this fairy tale advice?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> How does one "vote down" this fairy tale advice?


Well, he DID get banned, so...LOL


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