# One Wife's Totally Honest Post About Porn



## fix this

I'm in a way disappointed by what a relationship is. Be it casual dating or marriage. I grew up believing it would be a huge commitment, with 2 people giving themselves to one another completely, having this bond, so that nothing could come between them. Part of it was my mom's behavior. She put it into my head that true love is always that way, and anything else is just bull****. Well, it turned out life was more complicated than that. 
I was just waiting for 'the one' to come around, I was ready to be selfless, and give it all. And I did. Too bad I expected the same in return. I expected a relationship to be a fairytale filled with unicorns and rainbows and the two people only wanting each other. And to my disappointment and horror I realized when you do get into a relationship, as a woman, you commit yourself to a man, only to have him check out other women and jerk off to 18 year olds who are hotter than you for the rest of your lives together, and eventually underappreciate and take your beauty for granted. The initial spark simply fades. And to some extent I believe that happens to the majority. People will say boohoo, boys will be boys, that I need to stop being a *****/dramatic/controlling and let it go and accept it. That it's not a big deal, that it's normal and a typical male behavior, it's biology. I know all that, I've heard all that and I get it, but getting it doesn't honestly make me feel much better about it. It's still a slap in the face. It still makes me feel like im not enough, like I will never be enough to make him happy. This is not a case of a wife denying her man and then *****ing about him turning to other things for release. It's a case of a woman who gave it all, all she had, only to realize it really doesn't make a difference. That apparently by marrying this man she also married his porn, and that it's just how it is, and she'd better deal with it. Deal with his obsession with other women and that being a big and vitally important part of his life, to the point he can never stop? Well I can deal with it, but will I ever be fully happy? Does that FEEL fair or normal to me? I don't think so. And I don't think anything or anyone can help me change the way I feel about it, cause I've tried, I've tried very hard. 
Now, do I think it's worth it? Yeah, it definitely is, for the amazing times you have, for the laughs, the happy moments, having your best friend and the love of your life all in one person, waking up with them every morning? Of course it is. But is it all I hoped it would be? Unfortunately, the answer to that is depressing. People out there, men in particular, will call me crazy, possessive, a *****, jealous, controlling, a ball and chain. Well maybe that is who I am. And I think part of the reason why I made this post is to stop pretending for everyone's sake, be honest, accept myself, and perhaps give people some insight on how people like me feel. Some may feel the same, others will call it immature and overly dramatic, but that's who I am, and I think I just had to let it out.


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## Rosemary's Granddaughter

I am with you. These are issues that I was upfront about while my husband and I were dating -- "deal breakers", for me. It comes down to respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoF

fix this said:


> I'm in a way disappointed by what a relationship is. Be it casual dating or marriage. I grew up believing it would be a huge commitment, with 2 people giving themselves to one another completely, having this bond, so that nothing could come between them. Part of it was my mom's behavior. She put it into my head that true love is always that way, and anything else is just bull****. Well, it turned out life was more complicated than that.


Your mother is right.....to an extent. Nothing could come between them? That's not realistic......and just a general expression that you probably took to extreme.





fix this said:


> I was just waiting for 'the one' to come around, I was ready to be selfless, and give it all. And I did. Too bad I expected the same in return. I expected a relationship to be a fairytale filled with unicorns and rainbows and the two people only wanting each other.


There is no unicorns and rainbows only last so long......



fix this said:


> And to my disappointment and horror I realized when you do get into a relationship, as a woman, you commit yourself to a man, only to have him check out other women and jerk off to 18 year olds who are hotter than you for the rest of your lives together, and eventually underappreciate and take your beauty for granted. The initial spark simply fades.


You dropped a bomb there....

There is nothing wrong with checking out women. As long as it's done in an appropriate/disrespectful way.

Jerking off to 18 year olds......well, that's completely natural to most (but not ALL man).

The whole "hotter than you" part, don't worry about. Most women feel this way but it's really worthless (trust me). 

So are you saying that if he was to jerk off to "not hot" girl, it would be ok? Would that fullfill your fairytale?

:rofl:



fix this said:


> And to some extent I believe that happens to the majority. People will say boohoo, boys will be boys, that I need to stop being a *****/dramatic/controlling and let it go and accept it. That it's not a big deal, that it's normal and a typical male behavior, it's biology. I know all that, I've heard all that and I get it, but getting it doesn't honestly make me feel much better about it. It's still a slap in the face. It still makes me feel like im not enough, like I will never be enough to make him happy. This is not a case of a wife denying his man and then *****ing about him turning to other things for release. It's a case of a woman who gave it all, all she had, only to realize it really doesn't make a difference. That apparently by marrying this man she also married his porn, and that it's just how it is, and she'd better deal with it. Deal with his obsession with other women and that being a big and vitally important part of his life, to the point he can never stop? Well I can deal with it, but will I ever be fully happy? Does that FEEL fair or normal to me? I don't think so. And I don't think anything or anyone can help me change the way I feel about it, cause I've tried, I've tried very hard.
> Now, do I think it's worth it? Yeah, it definitely is, for the amazing times you have, for the laughs, the happy moments, having your best friend and the love of your life all in one person, waking up with them every morning? Of course it is. But is it all I hoped it would be? Unfortunately, the answer to that is depressing. People out there, men in particular, will call me crazy, possessive, a *****, jealous, controlling, a ball and chain. Well maybe that is who I am. And I think part of the reason why I made this post is to stop pretending for everyone's sake, be honest, accept myself, and perhaps give people some insight on how people like me feel. Some may feel the same, others will call it immature and overly dramatic, but that's who I am, and I think I just had to let it out.


Clearly your H watching porn bothers you DEEPLY. Have you communicated that to your H? His reply?

Since this is very important, it should be your boundary in a relationship (and a deal breaker while dating). This means, if he does it it's like cheating.

WAS IT? Did you set that boundary? When you 2 were dating? Or did he fall into it after few years etc.

And WHEN he does it, you leave him and end the marriage > divorce > heal > THEN you start looking for another man that can fulfill your requirements.

They are out there and your mother was right, they can be EXACTLY what you are looking for. BUT you have to get to know them well and make sure they are fit for you (due diligence).

Your answers to my will drive rest of my advice.....but be prepared to be disappointed in yourself (you already should be).


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## jld

Fix, sadly, many women could probably say the same things you have. And one reason men keep behaving in the ways you have described is because women tolerate it. 

You have the chance to change that, as DoF said. You can set boundaries. And if the boundaries are not respected, you can end the relationship.

It sounds like you do not have kids, so ending it would not be very complicated.

Don't settle, Fix, especially if you are young and childless. You can have a fresh start. There are good men out there, men who are not selfish and lazy and porn-addicted. If you are choosy, you can select a more compatible mate next time around. Believe you are worth it.


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## honeysuckle rose

Fix This, you have excellently expressed what most women feel. Some are ashamed to admit it bcuz then they won't be that cool, understanding wife. Give up on making any man (let alone any on TAM) see it from our side. Porn is a right, that's how men are programmed & we are insecure, whiny shrews.

My SO's behavior & beliefs on a lot of things opened my eyes. I had the same romantic, loving notions as you did. Don't get me wrong. He's a great guy, but if we parted I would choose to live the rest of my days alone. It's worth it for some but hasn't been for me.

If this is intimacy & love, I will pass. He's not my best friend & porn is a big reason for that. I care about him but I don't love him like I used to. Fairytales are for children. When you're a grown woman, most are dashed into a thousand shards of sorrow.

Good luck & thank you for telling the truth so many woman can't share.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

I am so sorry, honeysuckle rose. I believe there are many women, just like you said, who could tell the same tale.

If the man does not cherish the woman, it is not worth being with him, imo. Win/Win, or No Deal.

And thanks to both of you for your transparency. We learn so much when people are just open and honest with us.


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## fix this

DoF said:


> Your mother is right.....to an extent. Nothing could come between them? That's not realistic......and just a general expression that you probably took to extreme.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no unicorns and rainbows only last so long......
> 
> 
> 
> You dropped a bomb there....
> 
> There is nothing wrong with checking out women. As long as it's done in an appropriate/disrespectful way.
> 
> Jerking off to 18 year olds......well, that's completely natural to most (but not ALL man).
> 
> The whole "hotter than you" part, don't worry about. Most women feel this way but it's really worthless (trust me).
> 
> So are you saying that if he was to jerk off to "not hot" girl, it would be ok? Would that fullfill your fairytale?
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly your H watching porn bothers you DEEPLY. Have you communicated that to your H? His reply?
> 
> Since this is very important, it should be your boundary in a relationship (and a deal breaker while dating). This means, if he does it it's like cheating.
> 
> WAS IT? Did you set that boundary? When you 2 were dating? Or did he fall into it after few years etc.
> 
> And WHEN he does it, you leave him and end the marriage > divorce > heal > THEN you start looking for another man that can fulfill your requirements.
> 
> They are out there and your mother was right, they can be EXACTLY what you are looking for. BUT you have to get to know them well and make sure they are fit for you (due diligence).
> 
> Your answers to my will drive rest of my advice.....but be prepared to be disappointed in yourself (you already should be).



It wasn't something my mom said... it's what she did. She tolerated years of physical and emotional abuse from my dad, and said that's what love is, that it's pain, and sacrifice. She suffered almost in silence and he always had his way, and it made me subconsciously think that that's how people act when they're in love, so I didn't just become that way, I began to expect it of others. I didn't think he loved her, but I thought every person in love would act like she did. 

the part about jerking off to hotter women... well, no, lol, it doesn't make much difference whether they're hotter or not as hot as me, it's bad either way. But I guess that fact only fuels the fire. 

We didn't discuss it much while we were dating, I was actually incredibly confident, even arrogant. I was and am good looking, and extremely high drive, and there was no way I would even assume the possibility of a man ever wanting to watch porn if he has me, haha. It was a given to me he would only ever want me - see, part of my fairytale right there. It did come up one time, and he said he wouldnt do it if i was with him all the time. I said "I know." Because I really thought he wouldn't. 

He sure hid it well. He even managed to conceal it completely for 2 years of marriage. But then ofc it came out. He'd been doing it all along, he was just always great at hiding it. Except now I got laid off work and starting working from home instead, so he had to confess. It went from "i don't need it and i don't care" to eventually "i can't live without it, i can try but i know i will break." It's the last thing I expected. So even when you think you know someone, you might be clueless. 
I really don't think it's worth getting a divorce over, because every other aspect of the relationship is great. It is a big deal to me, but he's the love of my life, and he works on it and tries to do it as little as possible, which i appreciate. But the fact itself that he's so obsessed with it is what makes me feel like it will never be what I hoped it would be. Besides, I don't know what my chances would be of finding a man that doesn't watch porn (probably in the minority) and is also compatible with me in other things. Cause I really feel like my husband is my true soulmate.


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## honeysuckle rose

Ding ding ding! That's it EXACTLY - it's about respect. I was upfront, as many women are, and they just get better at hiding it. It's pathetic & sickening. When he touches me, I feel absolutely nothing. You know they are combing the porn libraries in their brains. I've been with men I didn't love & had better lovemaking sessions. With mine now, it's all porn sex. It's sad & lonely. He tries to be a good lover & husband...but I checked out emotionally a long time ago. And I stay bcuz the crap you know is less worse than this crap you don't. And I'm not a golddigger. I've got way more gold. I am sad, tired, lazy & pathetic. I care about him. Just not in love :-(




Rosemary's Granddaughter said:


> I am with you. These are issues that I was upfront about while my husband and I were dating -- "deal breakers", for me. It comes down to respect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## honeysuckle rose

FT, that is what gets me - they ARE addicted but want to normalize the behavior & call it something else. It changes their brains & the way they see women I don't care how much they swear it doesn't. Maybe men can compartmentalize & A doesn't affect B. I don't buy it. Well, I am compartmentalizing & your porn makes s me feel less for you, so the sex you get from me is out of obligation. I can't help it either...go figure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## honeysuckle rose

Thank you. 



jld said:


> I am so sorry, honeysuckle rose. I believe there are many women, just like you said, who could tell the same tale.
> 
> If the man does not cherish the woman, it is not worth being with him, imo. Win/Win, or No Deal.
> 
> And thanks to both of you for your transparency. We learn so much when people are just open and honest with us.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fix this

honeysuckle rose said:


> FT, that is what gets me - they ARE addicted but want to normalize the behavior & call it something else. It changes their brains & the way they see women I don't care how much they swear it doesn't. Maybe men can compartment & A doesn't affect B. I don't buy it. Well, I am compartmentalizing & your porn makes s me feel less for you, so the sex you get from me is out of obligation. I can't help it either...go figure.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, it also makes me feel less loving and makes me want him less. It helps his drive, well it does the opposite for me. It kills my desire for romantic intimacy with him, because it no longer feels special, no longer feels like actual intimacy. 

So you can't help it, you can't live without porn? Well, I can't help feeling this way. That's what I said. Because it's true. 

I don't feel the need to pretend to be the "cool" wife. I simply don't believe having that trait is something that makes you more or less deserving of love, and it's a shame some people do. I'm not ashamed of my feelings and beliefs, and in my own eyes I don't hold any disadvantage due to them. And I'm not a hypocrite either. I would never make my man feel bad or guilty if he was concerned about a close male friend, coworker, porn preference, or a celebrity crush of mine, that is if I had any of those; nor I would act like he's more or less worthy of love for having those feelings.. We are all human, and part of being in a relationship to me is being able to tell each other almost anything, show our true selves, let our guard down.


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## jld

honeysuckle rose said:


> FT, that is what gets me - they ARE addicted but want to normalize the behavior & call it something else. It changes their brains & the way they see women I don't care how much they swear it doesn't. Maybe men can compartment & A doesn't affect B. I don't buy it. Well, I am compartmentalizing & your porn makes s me feel less for you, so the sex you get from me is out of obligation. I can't help it either...go figure.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's nice to hear the other side of it. We so often hear men complain about "duty" sex, but there has to be a reason that is what they get. Thanks for sharing one such reason with us.


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## jld

fix this said:


> We are all human, and part of being in a relationship to me is being able to tell each other almost anything, show our true selves, let our guard down.


:iagree:


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## fix this

jld said:


> It's nice to hear the other side of it. We so often hear men complain about "duty" sex, but there has to be a reason that is what they get. Thanks for sharing one such reason with us.


I thought the same thing. Men complain about sexless marriages so often. I'm not saying that women are never at fault in situations like that, I'm sure both genders are equally guilty of shutting off, but there's usually a reason if a woman ends up being sexually inhibited when she didn't used to be. Porn has almost done it for me. It didn't make me hate sex, but it sure made me feel completely different about it, made me less passionate and willing to do it, made it harder for me to enjoy it, and generally just made me go from a sex kitten to pretty apathetic.


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## honeysuckle rose

Yes, we are all human and want that ability to be our true selves, be known & accepted. I have tried to be gracious & understanding. But I am disillusioned & tired. I am sure he is too. 

FT, you're a gem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fix this

honeysuckle rose said:


> Yes, we are all human and want that ability to be our true selves, be known & accepted. I have tried to be gracious & understanding. But I am disillusioned & tired. I am sure he is too.
> 
> FT, you're a gem.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you

It means a lot to have someone who understands


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## FormerSelf

fix this said:


> Yeah, it also makes me feel less loving and makes me want him less. It helps his drive, well it does the opposite for me. It kills my desire for romantic intimacy with him, because it no longer feels special, no longer feels like actual intimacy.


In the sex addiction world...intimacy is the key hurdle; addicts are intimacy cripples and it results in destroying intimacy in their relationships.

I really hope you have communicated to him how pornography in your relationship is causing you harm and hurting your respect for him. 

I know many here feel that porn is benign...but the fact that the H secreted his viewing habits until it was uncovered is really the issue here.


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## DoF

fix this said:


> It wasn't something my mom said... it's what she did. She tolerated years of physical and emotional abuse from my dad, and said that's what love is, that it's pain, and sacrifice. She suffered almost in silence and he always had his way, and it made me subconsciously think that that's how people act when they're in love, so I didn't just become that way, I began to expect it of others. I didn't think he loved her, but I thought every person in love would act like she did.


What she went thru does NOT = healthy marriage. Just because HER is no good, doesn't mean that EVERY marriage is no good. You even stated, outside of the porn issue....your marriage is great. You are being negative and overshadowing EVERYTHING with one bad thing (that's not fair).

But her general opinion was on par....I agree with it. And I think you would too.



fix this said:


> the part about jerking off to hotter women... well, no, lol, it doesn't make much difference whether they're hotter or not as hot as me, it's bad either way. But I guess that fact only fuels the fire.


I understand, that's good.



fix this said:


> We didn't discuss it much while we were dating, I was actually incredibly confident, even arrogant. I was and am good looking, and extremely high drive, and there was no way I would even assume the possibility of a man ever wanting to watch porn if he has me, haha. It was a given to me he would only ever want me - see, part of my fairytale right there. It did come up one time, and he said he wouldnt do it if i was with him all the time. I said "I know." Because I really thought he wouldn't.
> 
> He sure hid it well. He even managed to conceal it completely for 2 years of marriage. But then ofc it came out. He'd been doing it all along, he was just always great at hiding it. Except now I got laid off work and starting working from home instead, so he had to confess. It went from "i don't need it and i don't care" to eventually "i can't live without it, i can try but i know i will break." It's the last thing I expected. So even when you think you know someone, you might be clueless.
> I really don't think it's worth getting a divorce over, because every other aspect of the relationship is great. It is a big deal to me, but he's the love of my life, and he works on it and tries to do it as little as possible, which i appreciate. But the fact itself that he's so obsessed with it is what makes me feel like it will never be what I hoped it would be. Besides, I don't know what my chances would be of finding a man that doesn't watch porn (probably in the minority) and is also compatible with me in other things. Cause I really feel like my husband is my true soulmate.


I think you are being reasonable. And you have to just accept it. 

In the big scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. How about just let go your fairytale and embrace the reality? I really don't see this as a big deal. If all aspects of your relationship are fine, this is NOTHING. Let it go.

You are fighting his animal instinct. The fact that he watches does not mean he doesn't love you or anything you stated in your thread. He loves woman body....just like you love male body. You can't possibly think that you can lock him in the room to never see another woman again cause he is with you.

That's not mature or realistic, seriously.

As long as he is there sexually and his porn habit is NOT out of control/effects your marriage or generally unhealthy......he is fine, and you should be too.

Have you ever tried watching it with him? Maybe it's just the compromise you might need to make FOR him.

I see this as a minor relationship issue. It's as big of a deal as YOU make it.



fix this said:


> Yeah, it also makes me feel less loving and makes me want him less. It helps his drive, well it does the opposite for me. It kills my desire for romantic intimacy with him, because it no longer feels special, no longer feels like actual intimacy.
> 
> So you can't help it, you can't live without porn? Well, I can't help feeling this way. That's what I said. Because it's true.
> 
> I don't feel the need to pretend to be the "cool" wife. I simply don't believe having that trait is something that makes you more or less deserving of love, and it's a shame some people do. I'm not ashamed of my feelings and beliefs, and in my own eyes I don't hold any disadvantage due to them. And I'm not a hypocrite either. I would never make my man feel bad or guilty if he was concerned about a close male friend, coworker, porn preference, or a celebrity crush of mine, that is if I had any of those; nor I would act like he's more or less worthy of love for having those feelings.. We are all human, and part of being in a relationship to me is being able to tell each other almost anything, show our true selves, let our guard down.


I agree with everything you said here. But he is not perfect nor he can ever be. This is his one "fault". Dump it into his 20% he can never provide you with container.

Don't think about it too much, I think that alone is doing you and your relationship more damage than anything else. You either accept it and let it go, or don't accept it and divorce.

There is no middle ground here. By telling yourself it's wrong and dwelling on it you are taking steps towards a divorce already.....


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## DoF

FormerSelf said:


> In the sex addiction world...intimacy is the key hurdle; addicts are intimacy cripples and it results in destroying intimacy in their relationships.


I'm sorry but OP never said her H was an porn addict. And PLENTY of relationships/marriages out there that have porn and success.

Let's not take this to the extreme please.

Also let's not make it a gender thing either. PLENTY of married women watches porn.....



FormerSelf said:


> I really hope you have communicated to him how pornography in your relationship is causing you harm and hurting your respect for him.
> 
> I know many here feel that porn is benign...but the fact that the H secreted his viewing habits until it was uncovered is really the issue here.


There is no 100% trust or perfection. People WILL lie about SOME things or sometime.

It's the amount of lying and consistancy of it that matters. One like like this is not that severe.

If he lied every week or month and ALWAYS, WHOLE another issue.


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## AliceA

fix this said:


> I'm in a way disappointed by what a relationship is. Be it casual dating or marriage. I grew up believing it would be a huge commitment, with 2 people giving themselves to one another completely, having this bond, so that nothing could come between them.


That is what a relationship is to me as well. It's sad you feel you have had to settle for less.


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## FormerSelf

DoF said:


> I'm sorry but OP never said her H was an porn addict. And PLENTY of relationships/marriages out there that have porn and success.
> 
> Let's not take this to the extreme please.
> 
> Also let's not make it a gender thing either. PLENTY of married women watches porn.....
> 
> There is no 100% trust or perfection. People WILL lie about SOME things or sometime.
> 
> It's the amount of lying and consistancy of it that matters. One like like this is not that severe.
> 
> If he lied every week or month and ALWAYS, WHOLE another issue.


Not really looking to incite a defense of porn...more or less responding to OP assertion of her erosion of intimacy. I followed with an assertion that intimacy is generally a casualty in sex addiction...OP can determine that best.

I can understand how you wish to undo the negative social stigma of pornography...and that's fine...and I take no issue between consenting adults who view porn together or are fine with each other viewing in their own private time. I consider that benign...deception on the other hand, is malignant in my opinion...and is a marriage buster. 

For many people, porn is a source of pain...even a dealbreaker. Spouses who continue to watch porn in spite of inflicting pain on their spouse or putting marriage at risk...I assert may have a sex addiction. That's not condemnation you are reading however...just sharing empathy with someone having trust in their marriage damaged. My wife is a recovering sex addict (so no gender bias here) so I know what it feels like.


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## AliceA

I see the word 'addict' is causing people trouble. How about porn 'watcher'? If this activity is causing stress to the relationship, what's the big deal in giving it up? It's not like it's an addiction, right?


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## fix this

I believe he has a problem beyond normal interest in porn that normal guys have. When he started watching it openly he would do it for hours on end, one time he was doing it for 5 hours straight! He would lie over and over about how much and how often he watches it, deny the obvious, make up excuses and gaslight me and call me crazy even when I was right there and knew very well what it really was. After over a year, a few ultimatums and even one time my push for divorce he doesn't do that anymore, and his use of porn is pretty much down to normal. But it's all due to the fact that I'm here 24/7 and he simply has no other choice. If it was up to him he would probably still be doing it for hours on end. He just works really hard on it now because I put my foot down.

And of course he never admitted he had a problem, because he never admitted to the amount of porn he watched in the first place. He's always said he's perfectly normal.
I think deep down he realizes that's not the case, but it's just too much for him to admit even to himself.

Also during the time he wasn't watching porn (the time when i suddenly stopped leaving the house and he hadn't confessed yet) the sex was pretty bad. He was obviously bored and acted like it was a chore to him, and turned me down a lot. 

Additional info is, he has some erectile dysfunction issues from meds which make it difficult for him to maintain erection and finish. He can watch porn for an hour and not feel the need to masturbate afterward, and just switch to doing something else. I'm wondering if meds is only part of the issue, the other issue being simply disensitization from watching all that porn.


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## happi_g_more2

Porn and Porn addiction can be complicated. You def need to talk to your H about your feelings and get it out in the open. If this is something he does on his own and in secret, talking about it will kill 1/2 the interest. 

Keep in mind though, if you are like most of the women i know, you probably engage in your own form of disgusting, depraved fantastical, indulgences. If you take time from being with him to watch soap operas, read romance novels, or those smutty grocery store gossip magazines then take it easy on him...cause you know...glass houses and such. 

It never ceases to amaze me how many women get angry when they have to put down their copy of Shades of Gray to yell at their SO for looking at a pair of tits on the computer. I mean, after all, arent they both doing the same thing....fulfilling a fantasy


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## DoF

Ok, now that sounds like a porn addiction. Houston, we have a problem.

Chances are he watches so much that he is unable to perform when the real deal comes. Surprised you actually blamed it on the med first.....hehe

Just keep expressing to him how dissatisfied you are sexually due to inability to perform.....thx to his porn habit.  He needs to get a hint that naturally he will drive you away and what's on the line (his wife). I would also help him get it back under control (right now he needs moderation). Here is an example...

Ask him if a compromise of once every 3 days together with you would be acceptable and you will help him/assist him.  Take part, maybe wack him off.....or better yet.......spice things up, heck maybe you will enjoy it too.  During this time I would suggest that you try to get really creative during none porn time (you and him). Dress up for him after shower........wig........maybe take him for a hike/in the back of the woods......No meds, see if you can get him hard yourself with your affection/love etc. 

Focus on your entire 50% of your none sexual time and just do your best (and if you have already, great job, keep it up). Over time, ask him to consider phasing down porn and reward his progress. With whatever it is that he likes. 

Your husband is clearly in trouble and needs your help. I suggest you be supportive........he is an addict (no different than losing him to drugs....alcohol......food addiction). It WILL take the toll on your marriage IN TIME. 

This is the fight of your life. 

Last advice would be to be positive, no anger, no frustration.....smile on your face when you deal with him on any of the problem subjects. You really have to believe he can do it. 

Good luck


----------



## AliceA

DoF said:


> Ok, now that sounds like a porn addiction. Houston, we have a problem.


You only JUST realised that? Really?


----------



## DoF

breeze said:


> You only JUST realised that? Really?


She never said "5 hour sessions" in the OP.

I tried to be optimistic about the guy, shoot me.


----------



## Theseus

honeysuckle rose said:


> Fix This, you have excellently expressed what most women feel.


I disagree with that. According to surveys, 68% of women have no problem with porn. About 28% look at it regularly. 

How Men and Women Watch Porn - Porn Survey - Cosmopolitan

Are more women OK with watching porn? - CNN.com

Women Are Way More Into Porn Than Many Think, Suggests Survey

In my own experience, none of the women I've ever dated have ever had a problem with porn, unless it took my attention away from them. In fact, all of them (including my wife) enjoyed watching it with me.

However, if the OP's husband is watching it for five hours at at time, I agree that's not healthy. But that's not the porn per se; for example, it wouldn't be healthy if he was spending five hours mowing his lawn or washing his car either. 

Fix This, have you both tried watching it together? If so, what happened?


----------



## fix this

I think there's a misunderstanding. I didn't make this thread to seek advice. It was simply a confession of how I feel. And I think even if his porn use was normal, it would still make me upset, perhaps I'm simply one of those women. Another reason I don't seek advice is, whatever you suggest, 98% of it I would have already tried. I tried watching it together, and it made me depressed like hell honestly. I don't know how it seems logical to so many men to suggest this as an actual solution. Imagine your partner is cheating on you. How would it make it better if you decided to be there and watch them cheat on you? That would only make it worse, wouldn't it? No, I don't think porn is cheating, but it sure gives me similar feelings as if it was in a way infidelity, though I don't treat it as such. All the other things mentioned by previous posters I have tried. 
I'm not looking for a solution here. I believe this is the best it's ever gonna get and I'm making my peace with that. That was kinda the point of the post.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I am one of those women who doesn't have a problem with a little porn, but given our situation ...and how he has handled it - in our marriage.. this would make sense...

If my Husband put it BEFORE me, I can see me feeling it was my mortal enemy ...

Our story... it's not the norm....although my husband has always enjoying looking at a little solo porn (mainly Playboy bunnies- some might call this "art") and to this day he collects them on a hard drive, from all over the world.. it's like a hobby of his... I always ask him what is he going to do with this massive collection he has -give it to his sons!? 

We opened up the masturbation conversation 5 yrs ago (after being married 19 yrs)... we just never talked about sex.. ...I learned he didn't masturbate our entire marriage but waited for me...he told me he felt like that would be "Cheating" (his words)...

I was seriously SHOCKED by this.. only one time did he masturbate and it had to do with reducing his sperm count for an attempt for conceiving a girl that night (a co worker told him to do this).... I felt so Loved by this.. YET ...honestly I don't know how the hell he did that [email protected]#$% 

Then I had to come clean...(what a ridiculous conversation this was) and I told him I was a cheater then, cause I did masturbate while he was sleeping many nights, I didn't want to wake him up... heck I was even guilty of looking at Erotic pictures - I'm very visual...so Geez... he made me look bad !.. 

Goodness...were we ever backwards...and he was SHOCKED by that ! 

I trust he was telling me the truth, as it was not what I wanted to hear at the time at all - I was even questioning his Testosterone levels ...

I know had the tables been turned on us years ago...when I wasn't as anxious for sex... (he actually suffered some in this area ) ..there is no way I would have been that honorable.. I would have been burning up with lust and pestering my wife... 

After realizing where we missed each other.. this was never going to happen again.... we wait for each other - every orgasm is with each other.. and we both enjoy a little porn now & then.. ..we watch it together...

If my husband was one who put porn BEFORE Me....I can understand how Crushing this would be.. I would not handle that well at all... every woman wants to feel loved & cherished as her man's #1 ... Just as a man wants to feel deeply desired and wanted by his wife..


----------



## Catherine602

Theseus said:


> I disagree with that. According to surveys, 68% of women have no problem with porn. About 28% look at it regularly.
> 
> How Men and Women Watch Porn - Porn Survey - Cosmopolitan
> 
> Are more women OK with watching porn? - CNN.com
> 
> Women Are Way More Into Porn Than Many Think, Suggests Survey
> 
> In my own experience, none of the women I've ever dated have ever had a problem with porn, unless it took my attention away from them. In fact, all of them (including my wife) enjoyed watching it with me.
> 
> However, if the OP's husband is watching it for five hours at at time, I agree that's not healthy. But that's not the porn per se; for example, it wouldn't be healthy if he was spending five hours mowing his lawn or washing his car either.
> 
> Fix This, have you both tried watching it together? If so, what happened?


68% of omen don't have a problem with a man who rots his brain by watching hrs and hrs of porn. They don't mind a man that can't get it up to have real sex or is bored and sexually insensitive due to porn. Wrong. 

Anyone who spends so many waking hrs watching porn, has let it take over his life. Moreover, anyone who gives up a wife like the OP who still loves him and was sexually attracted to him, is a fool and an addict. 

Fix - google porn addiction and see if your husband fits. He seems addicted. Even addicts in their 20's have ED and low interest in real sex and spend hours watching videos. He needs help.

If he got help, his ED would probably improve over time, he would have more interest in real sex and he would not be so sexually insensitive to you. He would also wake up and realize how fortunate his is. Right now he is living a sad shadow life. 

its a pity that it has taken over his life. Some men would kill to have a wife like you who still loves them, still finds them sexually desirable. He is acting like you are a dime a dozen. 

I have no advice (I understand you are not looking for advice) if you are not interested in leaving. Addicts don't stop until they hit rock bottom.


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## Blondilocks

A woman says she doesn't like porn. Doesn't like how it makes her feel, doesn't like how it affects her husband, doesn't like how it affects her marriage. So what do the men here do? They tell her if that's as bad as it gets, jump for joy. They tell her to embrace it and watch it herself. What the holy cluck?

If a man didn't like chocolate, do you think he would appreciate being told to immerse himself in it or thank the stars that it's only candy and suck it up and eat. After-all, surveys say that 68% of men like if not love chocolate. No men I have ever known had the slightest objection to chocolate. 

Who gives a rat's patoot about what 99.99999% of the world thinks about something. If a person doesn't like it, they don't like it and it doesn't make them wrong.


----------



## jld

Blondilocks said:


> A woman says she doesn't like porn. Doesn't like how it makes her feel, doesn't like how it affects her husband, doesn't like how it affects her marriage. So what do the men here do? They tell her if that's as bad as it gets, jump for joy. They tell her to embrace it and watch it herself. What the holy cluck?
> 
> If a man didn't like chocolate, do you think he would appreciate being told to immerse himself in it or thank the stars that it's only candy and suck it up and eat. After-all, surveys say that 68% of men like if not love chocolate. No men I have ever known had the slightest objection to chocolate.
> 
> Who gives a rat's patoot about what 99.99999% of the world thinks about something. *If a person doesn't like it, they don't like it and it doesn't make them wrong*.


Exactly. _And we don't all have to agree . . . _


----------



## Holland

I am one of the supposed 68% of women that doesn't have a problem with porn although I will add that it could still be an issue. eg If my partner were into things that disgust me like rape porn then I would lose all attraction for him and would not be able to have sex with him. We do however have a healthy, balanced relationship, there is no lack of sex due to porn addiction and he would rather have me than sit watching a 2D movie. In fact the more sex we have the less (like maybe once a month or so viewing these days) porn he watches. 
It seems that the case is opposite with the OP and her husband is choosing the easy option of porn over real life.

I get what you are saying *Theseus* and agree with your post however the issues with the OP go deeper and the relationship dynamic doesn't sound balanced or healthy.


----------



## ConanHub

DoF said:


> I'm sorry but OP never said her H was an porn addict.


Actually she did.

He went from hiding it to saying he didn't need it to saying he couldn't live without it.

He said he could try to give it up but would probably fail.

Addict.

I am a recovering porn addict and know what OP is going through.

I think her position and feelings are perfectly valid.


----------



## committed4ever

OP, I agree with you on the porn ONE THOUSAND percent! I HATE porn. I think it's demeaning to women. I wonder how men would feel about putting their own daughters' faces on the women they see in the porn. 

My H knows how I feel about porn. I am not going to sit here and say he doesn't watch it because he travels a lot. That's not said as an excuse, just that he doesn't watch it when he is home, but I won't say he doesn't when he is away and can't get sex. he is a very HD man, and I don't think he actually initiates sex every time he really wants it. But I never turn him down for sex and often offer him AND initiate a BJ to completion so that is not an excuse either. So I would hope he doesn't watch it but I don't ask him about it because I would not leave him if I found out he did. 

Are there ANY men out there who don't watch it, and why not? If it's already been posted I guess I'll come back and read the whole thread later.


----------



## ConanHub

I don't anymore. But I have to be on guard because I spent so many years shaping my thought process on sexuality.

I hate porn as well Committed. I feel the same. Those women are someone's daughters and I have done pretty intense research on the "industry". Turns my stomach.


----------



## Betrayedone

fix this said:


> I'm in a way disappointed by what a relationship is. Be it casual dating or marriage. I grew up believing it would be a huge commitment, with 2 people giving themselves to one another completely, having this bond, so that nothing could come between them. Part of it was my mom's behavior. She put it into my head that true love is always that way, and anything else is just bull****. Well, it turned out life was more complicated than that.
> I was just waiting for 'the one' to come around, I was ready to be selfless, and give it all. And I did. Too bad I expected the same in return. I expected a relationship to be a fairytale filled with unicorns and rainbows and the two people only wanting each other. And to my disappointment and horror I realized when you do get into a relationship, as a woman, you commit yourself to a man, only to have him check out other women and jerk off to 18 year olds who are hotter than you for the rest of your lives together, and eventually underappreciate and take your beauty for granted. The initial spark simply fades. And to some extent I believe that happens to the majority. People will say boohoo, boys will be boys, that I need to stop being a *****/dramatic/controlling and let it go and accept it. That it's not a big deal, that it's normal and a typical male behavior, it's biology. I know all that, I've heard all that and I get it, but getting it doesn't honestly make me feel much better about it. It's still a slap in the face. It still makes me feel like im not enough, like I will never be enough to make him happy. This is not a case of a wife denying her man and then *****ing about him turning to other things for release. It's a case of a woman who gave it all, all she had, only to realize it really doesn't make a difference. That apparently by marrying this man she also married his porn, and that it's just how it is, and she'd better deal with it. Deal with his obsession with other women and that being a big and vitally important part of his life, to the point he can never stop? Well I can deal with it, but will I ever be fully happy? Does that FEEL fair or normal to me? I don't think so. And I don't think anything or anyone can help me change the way I feel about it, cause I've tried, I've tried very hard.
> Now, do I think it's worth it? Yeah, it definitely is, for the amazing times you have, for the laughs, the happy moments, having your best friend and the love of your life all in one person, waking up with them every morning? Of course it is. But is it all I hoped it would be? Unfortunately, the answer to that is depressing. People out there, men in particular, will call me crazy, possessive, a *****, jealous, controlling, a ball and chain. Well maybe that is who I am. And I think part of the reason why I made this post is to stop pretending for everyone's sake, be honest, accept myself, and perhaps give people some insight on how people like me feel. Some may feel the same, others will call it immature and overly dramatic, but that's who I am, and I think I just had to let it out.


I get what you are saying.......and I am a man. A man who vows to never make the same mistakes going forward that I have made in the past. I vow to be in the moment at all times and never take for granted what I have. Everyone in a relationship deserves the full attention of their s/o. A smart person learns from their mistakes and becomes a better person. I hope you find this someday.........


----------



## jld

committed4ever said:


> Are there ANY men out there who don't watch it, and why not? If it's already been posted I guess I'll come back and read the whole thread later.


Dh doesn't. He says I am enough for him, and that besides, he's got other **** to do!

He doesn't "check out" other women, either. No one here seems to believe this, but in 21 years with him, I have never seen him look twice at another woman, or give one a lingering look, or ever, ever make comments about them. He says he doesn't think it's respectful to women.

I think it is important to say this, because women need to know there _are_ men out there like this. You don't have to accept something, just because you are told that everybody does. Not everybody does. _You_ get to decide what _you_ want.


----------



## Caribbean Man

committed4ever said:


> Are there ANY men out there who don't watch it, and why not? If it's already been posted I guess I'll come back and read the whole thread later.


Well I have posted before that I no view porn.

But that's not for any moral reasons, because both my wife and I used it earlier on in our marriage and after a while it became boring. We both had the same taste in porn, which was more of the softcore variety.

We are always around each other and have a great sex life , so there's not any * need * for porn.

I don't think I ever really had an addiction to it because I have a very vivid imagination and sex was never really a problem for me.
There were times when I was single that I went log periods without sex or masturbation voluntarily , and there were times I just had all the sex i could have.

Maybe it's just the way I'm wired.
I can quit anything, cold turkey and never look back., and have done so in the past, smoking and meat are two examples.
Clubbing is another.

My reason for stopping is that it became monotonous and boring for me. [ and wife]

Maybe I'm wired kinda weird , but sexual fantasies or sex in general isn't something that consumes my spare time.I am usually extremely busy.
I can have sex whenever I want , so what's the purpose of spending hours on porn?
Maybe if I was in a position where sex wasn't satisfying or available, then porn might become an attractive option.

I have no moral objection to it, however I also have no moral objection to Marijuana usage either, neither do I smoke it.

Yes,I know it sounds weird.


----------



## ReformedHubby

I used to watch it. But I stopped because I started to lose my "edge". I wasn't as aggressive and I honestly think my wife could tell the difference. It was kind of like eating junk food right before you eat a good meal. If you're not as hungry its less enjoyable. 

We do however watch porn movies together on occasion. This means that we watch about five minutes of it and we attack one another. We've literally never gotten past the first scene on any of them. Oh well.....


----------



## jld

You sound like dh, CM. He told me he's too busy _working_ to do that stuff.


----------



## Catherine602

ConanHub said:


> Actually she did.
> 
> He went from hiding it to saying he didn't need it to saying he couldn't live without it.
> 
> He said he could try to give it up but would probably fail.
> 
> Addict.
> 
> I am a recovering porn addict and know what OP is going through.
> 
> I think her position and feelings are perfectly valid.


How are you doing? Porn is like alcohol, some people can watch occasionally and not have a problem, some people get to the point where they watch almost constantly and suffer for it. 

Hard to tell where you fall until you try it. I'm not a cool wife, I dislike porn but my husband watches. That's his business and his free time. It does not interfere with our lives. 

I appreciate privacy. That's one of the thing's that we agree to disagree on.


----------



## jaharthur

Blondilocks said:


> A woman says she doesn't like porn. Doesn't like how it makes her feel, doesn't like how it affects her husband, doesn't like how it affects her marriage. So what do the men here do? They tell her if that's as bad as it gets, jump for joy. They tell her to embrace it and watch it herself. What the holy cluck?
> 
> If a man didn't like chocolate, do you think he would appreciate being told to immerse himself in it or thank the stars that it's only candy and suck it up and eat. After-all, surveys say that 68% of men like if not love chocolate. No men I have ever known had the slightest objection to chocolate.
> 
> Who gives a rat's patoot about what 99.99999% of the world thinks about something. If a person doesn't like it, they don't like it and it doesn't make them wrong.


Well, no, that's NOT what "the men here" said. I couldn't find any saying the OP should "jump for joy." One did say "accept it." I counted three who sort of downplayed porn as a problem and one of those three changed his position when he realized the OP's spouse was truly an addict. He was the one who originally had said "accept it" but in essence retracted that advice. Another came up with the 68% reference, but he also agreed that the OP's use of porn was not healthy.

It seems your opinions are coloring your perception.


----------



## ConanHub

Catherine602 said:


> How are you doing? Porn is like alcohol, some people can watch occasionally and not have a problem, some people get to the point where they watch almost constantly and suffer for it.
> 
> Hard to tell where you fall until you try it. I'm not a cool wife, I dislike porn but my husband watches. That's his business and his free time. It does not interfere with our lives.
> 
> I appreciate privacy. That's one of the thing's that we agree to disagree on.


I got exposed to a lot of abuse as a kid. Watching people who were high or drunk have sex in front of me or with me was sometimes a common occurrence. I was also exposed to porn as a child and assumed everything going on was kind of normal?

As I grew, I started to realize that my perceptions were far from normal.

Anyway. By the time I met my wife, I had fully incorporated porn/ voyeurism into my sexuality.

Viewing sex was safe because no one could touch me.

Had a lot to overcome but Mrs. Conan has been wonderful and for the most part, I have overcome.

I don't think I will ever be totally out of temptation to watch others have sex but it gets better with work and time.


----------



## Theseus

committed4ever said:


> OP, I agree with you on the porn ONE THOUSAND percent! I HATE porn. I think it's demeaning to women.


It's been pointed out on these forums before, but women's porn often consists of reading steamy romance novels. I guess I should feel "demeaned" because they give an unrealistic view of all men being chiseled, tall, handsome, and rich. But I don't. 



> _ I wonder how men would feel about putting their own daughters' faces on the women they see in the porn. _


I am curious, would you be ashamed if your daughter did a nude scene in an R-rated film? For those against porn, how do you feel about those? Some R-rated films are pretty steamy, and borderline porn (certainly plenty on Netflix). There's hardly a single famous actress these days that hasn't done a nude scene. Do you avoid R-rated films as well? 



> _Are there ANY men out there who don't watch it, and why not? If it's already been posted I guess I'll come back and read the whole thread later._


Not all men constantly to look at porn, but they have all tried it at one time or another. 

I've been to Islamic countries where porn was totally illegal, and no one openly admits to looking at it, yet you check out any man's cell phone and they are just loaded with porn pics.

Fix This, it might surprise you though that *I do agree with you that you shouldn't have to accept porn if that's a dealbreaker for you*. The practical side of me though has to tell you that realistically it's very difficult to put a boundary on something a man does by himself in his spare time. This includes sexual fantasies, porn, and masturbation.


----------



## ConanHub

Theseus said:


> I am curious, would you be ashamed if your daughter did a nude scene in an R-rated film? For those against porn, how do you feel about those? Some R-rated films are pretty steamy, and borderline porn (certainly plenty on Netflix). There's hardly a single famous actress these days that hasn't done a nude scene. Do you avoid R-rated films as well?.


I avoid any movie that requires nudity or steamy sex scenes.

I hate any situation where women are paid to take off their clothes for money.....

Simple prostitution.

I do think it is a joke that people will watch super steamy R rated movies because they like the heat. Just cut to the chase and watch porn.

I am dead set against anyones wife or daughter taking off their clothes for money in any situation.


----------



## DoF

Theseus said:


> Fix This, it might surprise you though that *I do agree with you that you shouldn't have to accept porn if that's a dealbreaker for you*. The practical side of me though has to tell you that realistically it's very difficult to put a boundary on something a man does by himself in his spare time. This includes sexual fantasies, porn, and masturbation.


:iagree:


----------



## richie33

So I guess you never watched the movie Conan the Barbarian.


----------



## ConanHub

Sure did. But I won't anymore. I was far more interested in the novels and a comic magazine called Savage Sword of Conan.

I also have consumed a staggering amount of pornography. 

When I speak, it is from experience.


----------



## wise

You know what else destroys marriages? Deaths, communication, cheating, going to prison, middle age crisis, menopause, mental illness, finances, being bored, not feeling appreciated, gaining weight, becoming lazy, work hours, in-laws, children, car accidents, spousal abuse, lying, being angry, depression, etc etc etc etc

Add porn to that list and you have over 100 things that ruin marriages. 

Thank you lord that my woman watches porn just as much as I do AND THANK YOU LORD that she views the world as a reasonable person would rather than living in fantasy island.

Here is 101 things.. women talking on the phone for hours. Jeez, it is so demeaning when she rather talks to her girlfriend for an hour or so rather than me. It just grosses me out!!! SAID NO GUY EVER.

There is more to life than complaining and complaining. If you cannot look at things reasonably and weigh your positives and negatives then just leave him already. Stop acting like a child and move on. There is ANOTHER guy out there who will not watch porn but will suffer from the list of 101 things that ruin marriages. Take your pick.


----------



## fix this

Theseus said:


> The practical side of me though has to tell you that realistically it's very difficult to put a boundary on something a man does by himself in his spare time. This includes sexual fantasies, porn, and masturbation.


I think I have already figured that one out. I know I may be able to put my foot down so it might not go on for hours and he doesn't succumb to it completely and out of control, but I will never be able to stop him from doing it completely. He is who he is. Too bad he pretended to be the opposite until years into marriage. Something there tells me he didn't exactly expect anyone to accept that part of him to begin with. I don't know how he expected to never be revealed or figured out, though.


----------



## fix this

wise said:


> There is more to life than complaining and complaining. If you cannot look at things reasonably and weigh your positives and negatives then just leave him already. Stop acting like a child and move on. There is ANOTHER guy out there who will not watch porn but will suffer from the list of 101 things that ruin marriages. Take your pick.


First of all, complaining is almost what this site is made for. It's for people with marital issues, duh.

Second, if you read my post carefully you would see that I actually did weigh the positives and the negatives and I said it was worth it in the end.

Third, don't tell me how to or how not to feel, and don't diminish my feelings solely based on your own opinion. You don't agree? There's a respectful way of saying so. Now please get the **** out of my thread. Thank you.


----------



## jld

fix this said:


> First of all, complaining is almost what this site is made for. It's for people with marital issues, duh.
> 
> Second, if you read my post carefully you would see that I actually did weigh the positives and the negatives and I said it was worth it in the end.
> 
> Third, don't tell me how to or how not to feel, and don't diminish my feelings solely based on your own opinion. You don't agree? There's a respectful way of saying so. Now please get the **** out of my thread. Thank you.


Fix, you are a strong woman. I am very impressed with this response.

I need to learn how to respond this way.


----------



## fix this

jld said:


> Fix, you are a strong woman. I am very impressed with this response.
> 
> I need to learn how to respond this way.


Haha, I know my posts here are depressing but I'm in no way a pushover. I will put up with certain things if it's worth it for me, and some people mistake that for having a doormat mentality.


----------



## jld

I would _hardly_ call you a doormat, Fix. I think you are a trooper.


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## wise

> First of all, complaining is almost what this site is made for. It's for people with marital issues, duh.


I didn't infer that you shouldn't be complaining on here per se. I stand by what I said and that is _there is *more* to life then complaining and complaining._ You can complain on here all you want and I can tell you to 'stop complaining and move on' about it all I want.



> Second, if you read my post carefully you would see that I actually did weigh the positives and the negatives and I said it was worth it in the end.


Oh, so you merely posted to discredit a multi-billion dollar industry in regards to marriage? If you have marital issues but you already came to a conclusion before you even posted, then what is your purpose?



> Third, don't tell me how to or how not to feel, and don't diminish my feelings solely based on your own opinion. You don't agree? There's a respectful way of saying so. Now please get the **** out of my thread. Thank you.


Where was I telling you how to feel or not how to feel? Please explain. I only provided a dose of reality about how marriages turn to end up now-a-days. People post questions, people give advice that is BASED SOLELY ON OPINIONS, you either take it or leave it and there is a respectful way of doing so. So please, stop being ****ing rude when people with OTHER OPINIONS chime on. Thank you.


----------



## fix this

jld said:


> I would _hardly_ call you a doormat, Fix. I think you are a trooper.


Lol thanks, I agree! I actually don't consider pouring your heart out and talking about your feelings to be a sign of weakness. I think standing up for something you believe in and voicing your opinion, especially it being controversial, is pretty damn strong.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I find it laughable that when guys rush to defend porn they immediately point to romance novels. I have never read them and don't know any woman that has; that's not to say a lot of women don't read them but I'd be willing to bet its a much smaller number than men who watch porn.

People are allowed to feel the way they feel, and if both of you agree that's great. But please don't poo poo your wife's feelings about porn and then b!tch about your sex life. I have no idea how much porn my hb watches; I doubt its very much but since he and I are very connected i'm ok with whatever he's doing. Should he come to the point where he needs to jerk off to 18 year olds and it affects our connection I might just decide he's not doing it for me anymore, and that will be a consequence he's chosen to accept in exchange for jerking off to 18 year olds. 

On top of that, we're constantly told that we should be sensitive to hubby's feelings regarding our sex life but if his God given right to porn is challenged we should suck it up cause you know, that's what men do.

Fix, not not apologize for your feelings on the matter. Your hb at some point made a decision that jerking off to 18 year olds was more important then his connection with you. I'm sorry about that; only you can decide if you can live with it. It's unfortunate because he really is sacrificing a deep sexual connection with you in order to jerk off to 18 year olds that are not only fake (I know because I have a friend that runs a porn site) but wouldn't give him the time of day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WaverlyHanson

Hello Fix This....

Im so sorry you have endured this kind of a situation for so long.

From my years of working with hundreds of families, it seems growing up with watching your own Mom put up with abuse for years seems to have made you blind or unaware of how you should be treated in a healthy marriage.

The way you are being treated is NOT normal and NOT OK. It is not only the porn, but all the disrespect and showing in an inappropriate manner his interest in 18 year olds...Sickening..

The part that was most amazing to hear after you shared your real feelings was that you felt he was your soulmate. With that kind of a "soulmate" who needs an enemy....True friends and soulmates would never treat their spouse as you are being treated. 

I hope you will go to a women's support group and/or counseling for yourself so that you begin to respect yourself again and set healthy boundaries with the situation.

If he truly wants help, there are many places he can get it. I have referred many men to groups such as that and have some special stories to tell of wonderful turnarounds. It is not easy and many guys don't think it is any problem because they know many men have this addiction....however, when a husband comes to the realization that if it a problem for his wife, it is also a huge problem for him, that seems to be when they are willing to get help.

You can look online if you'd like for other groups too, but I happen to know there is someone here in Colorado who runs private groups as well as an online phone group for people out of the area. The website is Blazing Grace Home - Blazing Grace (There may be other non-faith based groups for this problem, but at this point I don't have that information. I know the group is not condemning in any way from my experience with my clients. They also have groups for wives trying to deal with the situation of recovery. Not sure whether there is a phone group for this or not.

I truly wish you and your husband all the best.

WaverlyHanson


----------



## fix this

wise said:


> Oh, so you merely posted to discredit a multi-billion dollar industry in regards to marriage? If you have marital issues but you already came to a conclusion before you even posted, then what is your purpose?
> 
> 
> 
> Where was I telling you how to feel or not how to feel? Please explain. I only provided a dose of reality about how marriages turn to end up now-a-days. People post questions, people give advice that is BASED SOLELY ON OPINIONS, you either take it or leave it and there is a respectful way of doing so. So please, stop being ****ing rude when people with OTHER OPINIONS chime on. Thank you.


Lol. Again if you reread my thread it says why I posted this. Not to discredit anything, not to seek advice, it was simply a reflection on how a lot of women feel, a form of confession that might just give people some insight and maybe help me let things out and stir up a civilized discussion on the topic.

You told me to stop being a child. That's diminishing my feelings and telling me to get over them. 

Yes, there is a respectful way of taking advice, as well as giving it, but I am not going to answer disrespect with respect. I will answer disrespect with disrespect. And I think that's fair.


----------



## fix this

lifeistooshort said:


> I find it laughable that when guys rush to defend porn they immediately point to romance novels. I have never read them and don't know any woman that has; that's not to say a lot of women don't read them but I'd be willing to bet its a much smaller number than men who watch porn.


I also never read those romance novels, nor do I sigh over ridiculously buff photoshopped guys on the covers of ditsy magazines. **** me right? lol. I also don't know any other woman who honestly does that.


----------



## Cosmos

fix this said:


> First of all, complaining is almost what this site is made for. It's for people with marital issues, duh.
> 
> Second, if you read my post carefully you would see that I actually did weigh the positives and the negatives and I said it was worth it in the end.
> 
> Third, don't tell me how to or how not to feel, and don't diminish my feelings solely based on your own opinion. You don't agree? There's a respectful way of saying so. Now please get the **** out of my thread. Thank you.


Good for you, Fix This.

There are lots of men out there who don't watch porn, my SO included. I'd say there are very few who have _never _watched porn, but there are many who_ do _realize that it can have a negative impact on a relationship and choose to leave it alone.

I'm sorry that you and your H didn't discuss this before marriage, and I'm very sorry that you're now in a position where his porn usage has a negative impact on you.

You're entitled to feel the way you do about porn, and there are many women who feel the same way. Sadly, however, discussions on this topic on TAM always seem to deteriorate into slanging matches.


----------



## fix this

WaverlyHanson said:


> Hello Fix This....
> 
> Im so sorry you have endured this kind of a situation for so long.
> 
> From my years of working with hundreds of families, it seems growing up with watching your own Mom put up with abuse for years seems to have made you blind or unaware of how you should be treated in a healthy marriage.
> 
> The way you are being treated is NOT normal and NOT OK. It is not only the porn, but all the disrespect and showing in an inappropriate manner his interest in 18 year olds...Sickening..
> 
> The part that was most amazing to hear after you shared your real feelings was that you felt he was your soulmate. With that kind of a "soulmate" who needs an enemy....True friends and soulmates would never treat their spouse as you are being treated.
> 
> I hope you will go to a women's support group and/or counseling for yourself so that you begin to respect yourself again and set healthy boundaries with the situation.
> 
> If he truly wants help, there are many places he can get it. I have referred many men to groups such as that and have some special stories to tell of wonderful turnarounds. It is not easy and many guys don't think it is any problem because they know many men have this addiction....however, when a husband comes to the realization that if it a problem for his wife, it is also a huge problem for him, that seems to be when they are willing to get help.
> 
> You can look online if you'd like for other groups too, but I happen to know there is someone here in Colorado who runs private groups as well as an online phone group for people out of the area. The website is Blazing Grace Home - Blazing Grace (There may be other non-faith based groups for this problem, but at this point I don't have that information. I know the group is not condemning in any way from my experience with my clients. They also have groups for wives trying to deal with the situation of recovery. Not sure whether there is a phone group for this or not.
> 
> I truly wish you and your husband all the best.
> 
> WaverlyHanson


Thank you for advice! I do believe there's progress, and he does care about me and take my feelings into account, and doesn't do it half as much as he used to. We all have faults and shortcomings. I don't expect him to be perfect, and that's why I choose to stick with him as long as he works on these things. Like someone said earlier, this is something we agree to disagree on. There's a sort of compromise now, and I've given it a chance for many reasons. 

I choose to no longer talk and nag about it. Instead, let him see the consequences of his actions, let him be honest with himself if he's too ashamed to be honest with me. And perhaps he will continue to make progress and someday can treat porn as a casual thing, not a necessary part of foreplay before sex, like he used to, and not vital like food or oxygen like he still does now.


----------



## Maricha75

committed4ever said:


> Are there ANY men out there who don't watch it, and why not? If it's already been posted I guess I'll come back and read the whole thread later.


There are SO many threads about porn on here, it'd be tough to wade through them all. In nearly all of them, someone has stated that either they do not, or the spouse does not.... much like jld has stated below.



jld said:


> Dh doesn't. He says I am enough for him, and that besides, he's got other **** to do!
> 
> He doesn't "check out" other women, either. No one here seems to believe this, but in 21 years with him, I have never seen him look twice at another woman, or give one a lingering look, or ever, ever make comments about them. He says he doesn't think it's respectful to women.
> 
> I think it is important to say this, because women need to know there _are_ men out there like this. You don't have to accept something, just because you are told that everybody does. Not everybody does. _You_ get to decide what _you_ want.


Much like jld's husband, mine doesn't watch porn either. Has he seen it? Sure. When he was a teen, before we met. His dad had passed away and he knew his dad had a stash of videos, so he checked them out... and was disgusted. What does he do if watching a movie with a steamy sex scene? He either will fast forward, if possible, or he will avert his eyes or leave the room if fast forward is not an option. As for noticing other women, I won't say that he never notices. I've never "caught" him, but that doesn't mean he hasn't noticed. And I'm fine with that. It's the LINGERING looks that I would have a problem with.

We did discuss porn before we married, and we were on the same page, even then.... porn has no place in our marriage. And it still does not.


----------



## turnera

Maricha75 said:


> There are SO many threads about porn on here, it'd be tough to wade through them all. In nearly all of them, someone has stated that either they do not, or the spouse does not....


Actually, during the periods when I feel close to my H and WANT to have sex with him, he and I will go to porn stores and buy videos together, watch it together, and get hot and heavy together.


----------



## lisab0105

wise said:


> I didn't infer that you shouldn't be complaining on here per se. I stand by what I said and that is _there is *more* to life then complaining and complaining._ You can complain on here all you want and I can tell you to 'stop complaining and move on' about it all I want.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, so you merely posted to discredit a multi-billion dollar industry in regards to marriage? If you have marital issues but you already came to a conclusion before you even posted, then what is your purpose?
> 
> 
> 
> Where was I telling you how to feel or not how to feel? Please explain. I only provided a dose of reality about how marriages turn to end up now-a-days. People post questions, people give advice that is BASED SOLELY ON OPINIONS, you either take it or leave it and there is a respectful way of doing so. So please, stop being ****ing rude when people with OTHER OPINIONS chime on. Thank you.


wise, your initial response to the OP was condescending, dismissive and not helpful in the least.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Theseus

lifeistooshort said:


> I find it laughable that when guys rush to defend porn they immediately point to romance novels. I have never read them and don't know any woman that has


If you seriously don't know any women that has read them then either you have a VERY small circle of female friends, or your friends are hiding things from you.

Keep in mind that this isn't the 1980s anymore. Few people read serial paperbacks. Instead, they are reading them on their Kindles and IPads, etc. It's a HUGE industry; the biggest single publishing genre. 

(source: Business of Consumer Book Publishing 2013)


Romance fiction generated $1.438 billion in sales in 2012.
Romance was the top-performing category on the best-seller lists in 2012 (across the NYT, USA Today, and PW best-seller lists).



> _that's not to say a lot of women don't read them but I'd be willing to bet its a much smaller number than men who watch porn._


I don't know about that, but I know that porn videos never go into mainstream best-selling status the same way some erotic books do, such as "50 Shades of Grey".


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Fix this:

What kind of meds does your H take? You mentioned his ED as a side effect of taking them. How much porn does he watch now that you're around more? Just roughly....

I'm also a recovering porn addict. I went on medication and started therapy to get it under control. I was concerned how it affected my marriage. But my #1 concern was how it affected me. Affected my work, my sleep, my mood - all negatively. Does your husband have any of those issues?


----------



## lifeistooshort

Theseus said:


> If you seriously don't know any women that has read them then either you have a VERY small circle of female friends, or your friends are hiding things from you.
> 
> Keep in mind that this isn't the 1980s anymore. Few people read serial paperbacks. Instead, they are reading them on their Kindles and IPads, etc. It's a HUGE industry; the biggest single publishing genre.
> 
> (source: Business of Consumer Book Publishing 2013)
> 
> 
> Romance fiction generated $1.438 billion in sales in 2012.
> Romance was the top-performing category on the best-seller lists in 2012 (across the NYT, USA Today, and PW best-seller lists).
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about that, but I know that porn videos never go into mainstream best-selling status the same way some erotic books do, such as "50 Shades of Grey".



I never said nobody read it, I said that I'd bet it was far less than porn. It is entirely possible my circle of friends is small, so let's look at it this way:

According to cnbc, porn is thought to generate $14 Billion dollars per year and that includes all the free porn on the internet, so that's after porn took a huge hit with the rise of free internet porn.

Romance novels: $1.438B
Porn: $14B, after all the free stuff.

Tough to compare the two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

fix this said:


> Thank you for advice! I do believe there's progress, and he does care about me and take my feelings into account, and doesn't do it half as much as he used to. We all have faults and shortcomings. I don't expect him to be perfect, and that's why I choose to stick with him as long as he works on these things. Like someone said earlier, this is something we agree to disagree on. There's a sort of compromise now, and I've given it a chance for many reasons.
> 
> I choose to no longer talk and nag about it. Instead, let him see the consequences of his actions, let him be honest with himself if he's too ashamed to be honest with me. And perhaps he will continue to make progress and someday can treat porn as a casual thing, not a necessary part of foreplay before sex, like he used to, and not vital like food or oxygen like he still does now.


Thought I would mention a few books....The 1st could be of help to you ...you could possible read it together.... just a thought.. I bought it out of pure curiosity...when I 1st arrived here, the authors were on this forum ... never read the whole thing but I believe the H gives it up in the end, not because his wife was demanding it....but they were bound and determined to hear each others side...and work this out... I think it could be invaluable to many couples struggling ...giving new insights...

Sounds your husband has made some efforts here , that he very much cares about you & the marriage :smthumbup:

*1*.  Love and Pornography: Dealing with Porn and Saving your Relationship : Books



> Love and Pornography chronicles a couple's struggle to find the openness, honesty and integrity to deal with a subject that is detested by some yet captivating, even compulsive to others. The authors' compassionate nonjudgmental message will defuse the polarized dialogue around porn. Providing the tools to understand the needs on both sides, this ground-breaking approach promotes the insight and awareness necessary to move beyond the conflict and emerge with a relationship stronger, more loving, and more resilient than ever before.
> 
> Flash! Love and Pornography is the winner of the Silver Medal for Sexuality and Relationships in the Independent Publishers Book Awards for 2010. It was also selected as a finalist in the 2010 Book of the Year Awards by Foreword Magazine, a leading journal in the publishing industry.


*2.* Love You, Hate the Porn: Healing a Relationship Damaged by Virtual Infidelity: Books



> A pornography addiction can feel like real infidelity to a spouse. There s nothing virtual about the damage done to a relationship, and the wounds are reopened each time a relapse is discovered. As tough as it is to overcome this addictive habit, healing a marriage damaged by pornography is even harder. For spouses, it s not enough for their partners to simply stop looking at porn. They need healing themselves. Some couples separate and divorce. Others stay together, but the strain of unresolved feelings takes a distinct toll. Many wonder, Can our marriage heal? Will we ever feel close again? Love You, Hate the Porn shows couples how to identify and address vulnerabilities in their relationship. Offers healing advice for spouses. Provides help for the struggling partner to avoid relapse. Focuses on how to make the marriage relationship stronger than it was before.


*3.* Every Man's Battle: Winning the War on Sexual Temptation One Victory at a Time : Books



> The challenge every man faces...the fight every man can win!
> 
> From movies and television, to print media and the Internet, men are constantly faced with the assault of sensual images. It is impossible to avoid such temptations... but, thankfully, not impossible to confront them and gain victory over them!
> 
> Millions have found Every Man’s Battle the single greatest resource for overcoming the struggle and remaining strong in the face of temptation. With extensive updates for a new generation, this phenomenal bestseller shares the stories of dozens who have escaped the trap of sexual immorality and presents a practical, detailed plan for any man who desires sexual integrity.
> 
> Includes a comprehensive workbook and a special section for women, designed to help them understand and support the men they love.


----------



## fix this

nuclearnightmare said:


> Fix this:
> 
> What kind of meds does your H take? You mentioned his ED as a side effect of taking them. How much porn does he watch now that you're around more? Just roughly....
> 
> I'm also a recovering porn addict. I went on medication and started therapy to get it under control. I was concerned how it affected my marriage. But my #1 concern was how it affected me. Affected my work, my sleep, my mood - all negatively. Does your husband have any of those issues?


He used to take hair loss meds which he said made his libido and performance flatline permanently. That was before we were together years ago, he started losing hair at a very early age. I wouldn't know exactly, he probably does it most times i take a shower which is 30 min everyday, and also maybe once in a couple of weeks he locks himself in a room and does it for a couple hours. He also stays up later than me often so there's that.

Before I put my foot down he would lock himself in his room at least every other day for at least an hour.

I don't know if my husband has any psychological issues caused by porn. I knew him for years and his personality hasn't changed since then. I don't think more or less porn turns it one way or the other. He works from home and his job isn't very demanding or stressful and he has a lot of free time. He argues that porn doesn't affect his job or his own life in general. But there's nothing to affect. We're both indoorsy and not too outgoing, both his job and his social life aren't busy enough in the first place for his porn to interfere with it. And yes he has things to do around the house and he always has things to do online, there's plenty of things we both do online that have nothing to do with porn, including forums, video games, movies, all sorts of entertainment, shows, books. 

One thing worth mentioning is a few months after we got married and I moved in with him he became seemingly very bored and would act very disinterested in sex, turn me down a lot. He blamed it on the meds but i knew it couldnt be just that. In his conversation with a friend i saw on his computer, the first thing he said was that life was boring. I thought he was bored of me. Now I think it was probably his porn withdrawal. I've heard that men who are heavy porn users experience libido flatline when they cut out porn.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Does he struggle with depression at all? To be addicted to anything one must be trying to escape some difficult feelings or pain IMO


----------



## Maricha75

turnera said:


> Actually, during the periods when I feel close to my H and WANT to have sex with him, he and I will go to porn stores and buy videos together, watch it together, and get hot and heavy together.


... which has absolutely nothing to do with what I said at all.... :scratchhead:

c4e asked if there were any other threads on there, and maybe she should go read them, to see if there were men who don't watch it. And I stated that with so many threads about porn, it would be a lot to wade through... and that SOME in those threads HAVE stated that their spouses do not watch it, or that THEY do not watch it (both genders)... So I'm not understand what your post has to do with quoting mine.


----------



## fix this

SimplyAmorous said:


> Thought I would mention a few books....The 1st could be of help to you ...you could possible read it together.... just a thought.. I bought it out of pure curiosity...when I 1st arrived here, the authors were on this forum ... never read the whole thing but I believe the H gives it up in the end, not because his wife was demanding it....but they were bound and determined to hear each others side...and work this out... I think it could be invaluable to many couples struggling ...giving new insights...
> 
> Sounds your husband has made some efforts here , that he very much cares about you & the marriage :smthumbup:
> 
> *1*.  Love and Pornography: Dealing with Porn and Saving your Relationship : Books
> 
> 
> 
> *2.* Love You, Hate the Porn: Healing a Relationship Damaged by Virtual Infidelity: Books
> 
> 
> 
> *3.* Every Man's Battle: Winning the War on Sexual Temptation One Victory at a Time : Books


Thanks! I will check them out


----------



## fix this

nuclearnightmare said:


> Does he struggle with depression at all? To be addicted to anything one must be trying to escape some difficult feelings or pain IMO


He's always been a realist and brooding, but I don't think he's ever been depressed.


----------



## AliceA

committed4ever said:


> Are there ANY men out there who don't watch it, and why not? If it's already been posted I guess I'll come back and read the whole thread later.


I asked my DH after reading this thread if he had any interest in porn, since we don't generally watch it (did once, but to be honest, while it was arousing, it was so cold, the women just seemed so used, that it made me feel a bit distressed, haven't watched it since), and he said he didn't feel the need to (high drive), and he doesn't masturbate, so if we watched it, it'd mainly be for my benefit (since I'm a lower drive than him). I don't think I want to see anymore though.

I get that some people use it to stimulate a lower sex drive person to satisfy a higher sex drive partner. At the point where it's replacing a partner, I feel it's more like cheating.


----------



## seahorse

Neither nor me nor my wife ever used it. Why not? We consider it dangerous to spirit, soul, and mind. We're also under conviction the Lord doesn't want us filling our minds with detached sexual objectification (i.e. lust). We're just as tempted as everyone else to look at sensual stuff, however. Just to clear that up... 

-seahorse




committed4ever said:


> OP, I agree with you on the porn ONE THOUSAND percent! I HATE porn. I think it's demeaning to women. I wonder how men would feel about putting their own daughters' faces on the women they see in the porn.
> 
> My H knows how I feel about porn. I am not going to sit here and say he doesn't watch it because he travels a lot. That's not said as an excuse, just that he doesn't watch it when he is home, but I won't say he doesn't when he is away and can't get sex. he is a very HD man, and I don't think he actually initiates sex every time he really wants it. But I never turn him down for sex and often offer him AND initiate a BJ to completion so that is not an excuse either. So I would hope he doesn't watch it but I don't ask him about it because I would not leave him if I found out he did.
> 
> Are there ANY men out there who don't watch it, and why not? If it's already been posted I guess I'll come back and read the whole thread later.


----------



## Theseus

lifeistooshort said:


> According to cnbc, porn is thought to generate $14 Billion dollars per year and that includes all the free porn on the internet, so that's after porn took a huge hit with the rise of free internet porn.
> 
> Romance novels: $1.438B
> Porn: $14B, after all the free stuff.
> 
> Tough to compare the two.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Tough to compare the two, because you're not doing the right comparison. That $1.4 billion for romance novels *is for publishing sales only*. And that also includes the free stuff. 

On the other hand, the porn industry includes books yes, but *it also includes magazines, videos, and web sites.* So obviously it's going to be bigger if you expand it like that.

If you really want to completely compare the two, romance novels would have to be included with romantic movies and TV shows (including soap operas). I think the numbers in that case would be pretty close, if not ahead of porn.


----------



## Holland

I have never read a romance novel in my life, doubt I ever will as they hold no interest for me.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Theseus said:


> Tough to compare the two, because you're not doing the right comparison. That $1.4 billion for romance novels *is for publishing sales only*. And that also includes the free stuff.
> 
> On the other hand, the porn industry includes books yes, but *it also includes magazines, videos, and web sites.* So obviously it's going to be bigger if you expand it like that.
> 
> If you really want to completely compare the two, romance novels would have to be included with romantic movies and TV shows (including soap operas). I think the numbers in that case would be pretty close, if not ahead of porn.


I dispute that, and there's no way I'd put idiotic soap operas in with romance. There's nothing romantic about them, just a bunch of rich people that have lots of time to get into trouble. I don't even know anyone that watches them because we're all at work. And if you want to start with romance movies you'll have to throw every movie with t&a on the porn side, along with every comedy that depicts a hot woman with a fat, homely guy. Heck, just the ferocity with which I see guys on TAM defending porn suggests it's much bigger. Not only do I not see women defending romance novels as "what women do" but it's time consuming to sit down with a book; guys can squeeze one out to porn in 5 or 10 minutes. And i've yet to see a guy complaining about his marriage being sexless because his wife reads romance novels.

Either way this argument is never going to be settled.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wise

> I dispute that, and there's no way I'd put idiotic soap operas in with romance. There's nothing romantic about them, just a bunch of rich people that have lots of time to get into trouble.


I beg to differ. There is a HUGE difference between soap operas and reality shows. 

Years ago the shows were predominately sponsored by soap companies. Since they were on during the day when the viewing audience was predominately housewives the demographic was perfect for companies to promote household cleaning products. Go figure. They are stories involving romance, betrayal, and dark family secrets.

However, later in the day, towards night, Reality Shows begin to surface which involve 'rich people that have lots of time to do stupid things.' And some of these shows are bibles to the younger generation of women.



> I don't even know anyone that watches them because we're all at work.


And that is subjectively speaking. These shows would not be running if people did not watch them.



> And if you want to start with romance movies you'll have to throw every movie with t&a on the porn side, along with every comedy that depicts a hot woman with a fat, homely guy.


Fair. But, look at 'Magic Mike.' It grossed over 167 million dollars FOR ONE MOVIE according to the sites and I am pretty sure that wasn't because of men. 

And you are right, these arguments will never end because women are just AS BAD as men; it all evens out at the end.


----------



## AVR1962

Been in your shoes and good for you for speaking out and telling your feelings on the subject and how it made you feel. Guys might not understand OR EVEN CARE but I the ladies most certainly will. 

I too felt much like yourself. My first husband had an affair within 2 years of our marriage and wanted 3-somes which I would not do. he loved porn, especially the stories and he would want me to read these and initiate sex.....I think it was his way of living at the fantasy of the story.....I was not into it.

Remarried a ,man that I had no idea had a porn addiction, he lied for many years. Saw his interests in other women and saw that he was fantasizing about them.....learned not only was he fantasizing but was using porn as his sex contact and was not coming to me, talk about hurt. I have always kept myself up, had not let myself go, was available to my husband and infact it was me going to him and me trying to engage him but he was into fantasy. 

It creates a HUGE wall! We spent plenty of time with counselors one-one-one and as a couple and NO counselor said this behavior was natural male behavior. They all said it was selfish and hurting him as well as our marriage.

Just a few weeks ago my daughter in her late 20's called me and admitted that her husband of 9 years was a porn addict. She knew there had been a separation between them and started reading books and was trying to meet his needs to re-engage the marriage. She ended up getting pg and all the while her husband was caught up in porn. Her pg was difficult and she found out shortly after the baby was born.....talk about rough!

I know a young couple that just married last summer who recently separated.....I was shocked......found out that he had fallen for some girl at work.

This week I was emailing with a male friend, I only consider him a friend and we have talked about all kinds of things....there has never been anything between us. I was shocked but he started complaining about how little sex he gets from his wife.

I have come to the conclusion that men are about themselves and their hormones dominate every aspect of their lives. Walls go up when we have been hurt from their infatuations/porn addictions/affairs but some how we are either to blame or we have to in some way deal with it in order to move on. If they were in our shoes and it was us having the affair they would not blink twice, they would be gone in a heart-beat.

Your post might get some poor back-lash from the men- ignore it!!!!!!


----------



## Theseus

AVR1962 said:


> I have come to the conclusion that men are about themselves and their hormones dominate every aspect of their lives. Walls go up when we have been hurt from their infatuations/porn addictions/affairs but some how we are either to blame or we have to in some way deal with it in order to move on. If they were in our shoes and it was us having the affair they would not blink twice, they would be gone in a heart-beat.
> 
> Your post might get some poor back-lash from the men- ignore it!!!!!!



AVR, it looks like you have been hurt in the past, but I don't think it's helpful to try to turn this into a "men vs. women" thread.


----------



## richie33

I have learned that woman are all about makeup, rainbows and Disney stories.


----------



## AVR1962

Theseus said:


> AVR, it looks like you have been hurt in the past, but I don't think it's helpful to try to turn this into a "men vs. women" thread.


The war between men and women will go on and there is nothing that will be said here that will ever stop it. Simply stating my opinion from experience, not trying to wage men against women or vise versa.....it's my reality!


----------



## Maricha75

AVR1962 said:


> The war between men and women will go on and there is nothing that will be said here that will ever stop it. Simply stating my opinion from experience, not trying to wage men against women or vise versa.....it's my reality!


Maybe it would have been better to preface it with "It has been my experience that...." and recognize that not "all men" nor "all women" have your same reality? I mean, it would be like saying "all men are bipolar" because my husband is, my sister's ex-husband is, and her current husband is. And stating your opinion is NOT stating "I have come to the conclusion men are all about themselves". All that kind of statement does is encourage arguments about the gender stereotypes.


----------



## Maricha75

richie33 said:


> I have learned that woman are all about makeup, rainbows and Disney stories.


I see what you did there.


----------



## lisab0105

I have watched soaps since I was in the 5th grade. NEVER once since I became a sexually active adult I have ever _not_ been in the mood for sex with my guy because I already got my fill from watching them for an hour, or reading one of my Nora Roberts books. 

BUT what I can tell you is that my guy, the avid porn lover/defender that he is, has definitely had many nights where he was not in the mood to have sex with me because earlier in the day he already got off to porn. When he does feel like having sex with me, sometimes he is disappointed that I can't flawlessly squat on him for 15 minutes like the chicks in porn could. So really, porn defenders, don't sit here and tell us porn isn't a problem, because I am telling you, it really f'cking is.


----------



## richie33

Where is the porn defenders in this thread? Posters have been telling the OP that she is correct in the way she feels. That the husband is the problem. No one is screaming get over it.


----------



## tacoma

AVR1962 said:


> The war between men and women will go on and there is nothing that will be said here that will ever stop it. Simply stating my opinion from experience, not trying to wage men against women or vise versa.....it's my reality!


What "war" between men and women?

Damn, last night my wife chose the porn.

Does that mean I'm losing?
Should I call in an air strike?

You're going to totally ruin porn for me if it turns out it's just war propaganda.


----------



## tacoma

richie33 said:


> Where is the porn defenders in this thread? Posters have been telling the OP that she is correct in the way she feels. That the husband is the problem. No one is screaming get over it.


We've grown tired of the same repetitive insecure arguments after roughly 500,000,000,000 porn threads all going around and around and around and just generally avoid these threads now.


I'm pretty pissed at myself for getting drawn into this one this far.


----------



## lisab0105

richie33 said:


> Where is the porn defenders in this thread? Posters have been telling the OP that she is correct in the way she feels. That the husband is the problem. No one is screaming get over it.


There was one that told the OP to just accept it and another bringing out the ol romance novel and rom com's defense. 

Not to mention, more is coming, it always done.


----------



## richie33

lisab0105 said:


> There was one that told the OP to just accept it and another bringing out the ol romance novel and rom com's defense.
> 
> Not to mention, more is coming, it always done.


One in 7 pages is not a out cry of people defending porn. Problem is not the porn in the majority of cases.


----------



## Maricha75

tacoma said:


> What "war" between men and women?
> 
> Damn, last night my wife chose the porn.
> 
> Does that mean I'm losing?
> Should I call in an air strike?
> 
> You're going to totally ruining porn for me if it turns out it's just war propaganda.


Does this mean my husband and I are both losing since we don't even watch it? Now I'm confused. I thought I was supposed to be able to lean on him. Turns out we're supposed to be at war?


----------



## tacoma

Maricha75 said:


> Does this mean my husband and I are both losing since we don't even watch it? Now I'm confused. I thought I was supposed to be able to lean on him. Turns out we're supposed to be at war?


No, you guys are Switzerland.

You're good.

Don't you bait me into posting here, dammit Maricha!


----------



## lisab0105

richie33 said:


> One in 7 pages is not a out cry of people defending porn. Problem is not the porn in the majority of cases.


And I think you are wrong.


----------



## Theseus

lisab0105 said:


> I have watched soaps since I was in the 5th grade. NEVER once since I became a sexually active adult I have ever _not_ been in the mood for sex with my guy because I already got my fill from watching them for an hour, or reading one of my Nora Roberts books.
> 
> BUT what I can tell you is that my guy, the avid porn lover/defender that he is, has definitely had many nights where he was not in the mood to have sex with me because earlier in the day he already got off to porn. When he does feel like having sex with me, sometimes he is disappointed that I can't flawlessly squat on him for 15 minutes like the chicks in porn could. So really, porn defenders, don't sit here and tell us porn isn't a problem, because I am telling you, it really f'cking is.


So because it's a problem in your relationship it automatically applies to everyone else?

You are partially right. Porn does become a problem if it becomes a distraction and causes one partner to lose interest in the other. But that's not just porn. The same could be said of work, raising children, playing video games, or even reading romantic fiction. I have read threads on TAM where all of these things were driving a wedge between a couple. Porn is not unique in this regard.


----------



## Theseus

AVR1962 said:


> The war between men and women will go on and there is nothing that will be said here that will ever stop it. Simply stating my opinion from experience, not trying to wage men against women or vise versa.....it's my reality!


AVR, I REALLY think you need to find a new therapist. Most of us here are not in a "war" with anyone. I'm pretty sure I would call it quits on any relationship that felt like a "war" and find someone more compatible.


----------



## richie33

lisab0105 said:


> And I think you are wrong.


Didn't expect you to agree. Usually the anti porn are as stubborn as the pro porn.


----------



## Maricha75

lisab0105 said:


> And I think you are wrong.


Actually, for the most part, Richie is correct. Porn in't _THE_ problem, rather a _symptom_ of the problem. Communication is the problem. Keep in mind I didn't say ALWAYS, but quite often, that IS the way it plays out.


----------



## EleGirl

fix this said:


> I thought the same thing. Men complain about sexless marriages so often. I'm not saying that women are never at fault in situations like that, I'm sure both genders are equally guilty of shutting off, but there's usually a reason if a woman ends up being sexually inhibited when she didn't used to be. Porn has almost done it for me. It didn't make me hate sex, but it sure made me feel completely different about it, made me less passionate and willing to do it, made it harder for me to enjoy it, and generally just made me go from a sex kitten to pretty apathetic.


Apparently men chose to be sexless (or near sexless) as often as women do. The rates are about the same. It's just that men are more vocal about it when their wives seem to be the cause.


----------



## lisab0105

tacoma said:


> We've grown tired of the same repetitive *insecure arguments *after roughly 500,000,000,000 porn threads all going around and around and around and just generally avoid these threads now.
> 
> 
> I'm pretty pissed at myself for getting drawn into this one this far.


Talk about repetitive...

Insecure- check
Romance books and movies are just as bad- check
Watch with him- check


----------



## lisab0105

Theseus said:


> So because it's a problem in your relationship it automatically applies to everyone else?
> 
> You are partially right. Porn does become a problem if it becomes a distraction and causes one partner to lose interest in the other. But that's not just porn. The same could be said of work, raising children, playing video games, or even reading romantic fiction. I have read threads on TAM where all of these things were driving a wedge between a couple. Porn is not unique in this regard.


How many posts has TAM had of women complaining of their man's porn problem? Not just me, not just OP. I have seen it over and over and it's always the same, we are insecure, it's just fantasy, men are visual...blah blah blah. Just a bunch of lame ass excuses as to why we need to suck it up.


----------



## ReformedHubby

richie33 said:


> Where is the porn defenders in this thread? Posters have been telling the OP that she is correct in the way she feels. That the husband is the problem. No one is screaming get over it.


Posts defending porn would off topic in this thread IMO. The OP doesn't like it and doesn't want her man to view it. That's her stance and a boundary she wants him to respect. Nothing wrong with that.

I think everybody is ok with people being for or against porn in their own relationships. The problems occur when you try and tell people that _your_ choice is also the right choice for them.


----------



## richie33

ReformedHubby said:


> Posts defending porn would off topic in this thread IMO. The OP doesn't like it and doesn't want her man to view it. That's her stance and a boundary she wants him to respect. Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> I think everybody is ok with people being for or against porn in their own relationships. The problems occur when you try and tell people that _your_ choice is also the right choice for them.


My post was a response to another poster.


----------



## ReformedHubby

richie33 said:


> My post was a response to another poster.


I wasn't trying to say there was anything wrong with your observation. I was just offering my opinion on why the pro-porn folks aren't all that interested in this thread. The OP's post pretty much states that she doesn't want a debate.


----------



## Maricha75

ReformedHubby said:


> I wasn't trying to say there was anything wrong with your observation. I was just offering my opinion on why the pro-porn folks aren't all that interested in this thread. The OP's post pretty much states that she doesn't want a debate.


RH, the post wasn't asking why the pro-porn people aren't in this thread. The post was asking why the OTHER poster felt that ONE person telling OP to, essentially, "suck it up", meant "everyone" was telling her to get over it. The other, seemingly pro-porn posts, were in response to other posters discussing what "most" women think, and "most" men do. Even those who are very pro-porn were telling OP that her husband has a problem, and she shouldn't have to put up with that. And, even if a debate isn't intended, these kinds of threads tend to morph into those kinds.


----------



## Theseus

lisab0105 said:


> How many posts has TAM had of women complaining of their man's porn problem? Not just me, not just OP. I have seen it over and over and it's always the same, we are insecure, it's just fantasy, men are visual...blah blah blah. Just a bunch of lame ass excuses as to why we need to suck it up.


And how many thousands of threads does TAM have from women who have issues because they are insecure about their bodies? These may sound like "lame ass excuses" to people who don't want to listen, but there are issues here other than porn. 

Anyway, you don't have to "suck it up". Find someone you are more compatible with, otherwise, yes, suck it up.


----------



## jaharthur

*Re: Re: One Wife's Totally Honest Post About Porn*



lisab0105 said:


> There was one that told the OP to just accept it and another bringing out the ol romance novel and rom com's defense.
> 
> Not to mention, more is coming, it always done.


Is that the same guy who a couple posts later said he didn't realize how big the OP's husbands problem was and agreed it was unacceptable?


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Hmmmm...just happened again. This site seems to be working just fine when writing a post....right up until the time that one hits the submit button, and At that point the screen indicates any one of several things different than what it does when the post is processed normally......and your post disappears forever.

(I know...I'll take it up with site IT)


----------



## nuclearnightmare

in brief, what I wanted to say is that I believe there to be 3 types of male users of internet porn: those that have an issue with addiction and admit it, those that have a problem but do not admit it, and the 5-10% that don't have a problem.


----------



## violet37

nuclearnightmare said:


> in brief, what I wanted to say is that I believe there to be 3 types of male users of internet porn: those that have an issue with addiction and admit it, those that have a problem but do not admit it, and the 5-10% that don't have a problem.


:iagree:

I was married to the 2nd one! Porn desensitizes people to sex. Destroys the intimacy in a relationship, or will eventually. We reached a point where porn, or fantasizing, took place probably 95% of the time we had sex. In my opinion, it is just a hop, skip, and a jump away from actual cheating or swinging. After what I've dealt with, I really feel sorry for those that have found themselves in that situation, yet are in denial of the significance.


----------



## turnera

violet37 said:


> I was married to the 2nd one! Porn desensitizes people to sex. Destroys the intimacy in a relationship, or will eventually. We reached a point where porn, or fantasizing, took place probably 95% of the time we had sex.


Well, we used it probably 5% of the time. so what really matters, IMO, is frequency. Whether you can walk away from it.


----------



## fix this

violet37 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I was married to the 2nd one! Porn desensitizes people to sex. Destroys the intimacy in a relationship, or will eventually. We reached a point where porn, or fantasizing, took place probably 95% of the time we had sex. In my opinion, it is just a hop, skip, and a jump away from actual cheating or swinging. After what I've dealt with, I really feel sorry for those that have found themselves in that situation, yet are in denial of the significance.


yeah I've tried to give it a chance and watch porn with my hubby. of course eventually it turned into something he'd want to do every single time before sex. We would never have sex without it. I think a lot of my touchiness on the subject has to do with the fact that it wasn't just something he liked, it was more of an obsession and a necessity which i thought wasn't healthy. The sex we had afterward was steamy and good, but the fact that porn HAD to be there for the sex to be steamy and good was not normal to me.


----------



## Starstarfish

> The practical side of me though has to tell you that realistically it's very difficult to put a boundary on something a man does by himself in his spare time.


So if your spouse decides to blow coke by himself in his spare time, should doing drugs not be a boundary either?


----------



## PieceOfSky

> The practical side of me though has to tell you that realistically it's very difficult to put a boundary on something a man does by himself in his spare time.





Starstarfish said:


> So if your spouse decides to blow coke by himself in his spare time, should doing drugs not be a boundary either?


I do not understand how Starstarfish's response is related to the quote Starstarfish included.

Starstarfish, are you equating "it is very difficult to put a boundary on something" with "should...not be a boundary"?


----------



## PieceOfSky

jld said:


> It's nice to hear the other side of it. We so often hear men complain about "duty" sex, *but there has to be a reason that is what they get.* Thanks for sharing one such reason with us.


The other side of what?

Of course there is a reason (or, more likely, multiple reasons) when a couple's sex life is failing.

That you would phrase it the way you did, leaves me thinking you think it would be the man's fault? Am I misunderstanding your intent?


----------



## PieceOfSky

lifeistooshort said:


> I find it laughable that when guys rush to defend porn they immediately point to romance novels.


Are you saying ALL guys who rush to defend porn point to romance novels?


----------



## jld

PieceOfSky said:


> The other side of what?
> 
> Of course there is a reason (or, more likely, multiple reasons) when a couple's sex life is failing.
> 
> That you would phrase it the way you did, leaves me thinking you think it would be the man's fault? Am I misunderstanding your intent?


Either that or she is naturally LD. I think a lot of it is whether the man is meeting her emotional needs or not.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Maricha75 said:


> RH, the post wasn't asking why the pro-porn people aren't in this thread. The post was asking why the OTHER poster felt that ONE person telling OP to, essentially, "suck it up", meant "everyone" was telling her to get over it. The other, seemingly pro-porn posts, were in response to other posters discussing what "most" women think, and "most" men do. Even those who are very pro-porn were telling OP that her husband has a problem, and she shouldn't have to put up with that. And, even if a debate isn't intended, these kinds of threads tend to morph into those kinds.


Thank you for seeing that so clearly and pointing that out, Maricha!

It seems to me that once people start posting interpretations of what "everyone" or "everyone who disagrees with me" is saying or motivated by or thinking, a thread stops being productive.

I wish those inclined to post such interpretations would simply stick to what they think, rather than what they believe the "wrong ones" think.


----------



## PieceOfSky

jld said:


> Either that or she is naturally LD. I think a lot of it is whether the man is meeting her emotional needs or not.


Thanks for clarifying that you believe it is either a case of:

a) the woman being naturally LD, or 
b) the man's fault

In the case where a man is giving only duty sex and the woman is not satisfied, do you assume it is 

a) the man being naturally LD, or
b) the woman's fault

Or, does gender not really come into play? Rather, the problem is always the sexually unsatisfied partner's fault or just "natural"?


Regardless of your thoughts on those follow up questions, I find your answer to the first troubling.

Having been in a sexless marriage myself, and having struggled and worked to "fix it" whatever "it" was; having endured my partner's EA and dishonesty about her feelings of love towards me; having endured her laziness when it comes to working on our marriage; an knowing for a fact she is not just naturally LD (or zero drive) because when she happens to be spending hours on the phone each day getting her "emotional needs met" by an old lover while I am at work... 

...by your view, I'm left to conclude it's my fault, for not meeting her emotional needs.

Sure, I may be biased. But, I'm the only one here who to speak about my situation.

IMO, it turns out sometimes the problem can be in both people. It can be in the chronically rejected person. It can be inside the one who chronically rejects the other. The problem can have nothing at all to do with "natural LD or HD or normal drive". It can have it start in the actions of people outside the marriage, during the marriage or even before the marriage. The problem(s) can be in either sex. The problem(s) can occur in same-sex relationships, too.

Some people avoid emotional attachment. It is possible to do active listening until the cows come home, to have heart-to-heart conversations and cherish the air the other partner breathes -- yet never have that reciprocated or even appreciated. 

I cannot imagine why, JLD, you seem to think there are only two possiblities in the situation I asked about. I hope I simply misunderstood.


----------



## AliceA

fix this said:


> yeah I've tried to give it a chance and watch porn with my hubby. of course eventually it turned into something he'd want to do every single time before sex. We would never have sex without it. I think a lot of my touchiness on the subject has to do with the fact that it wasn't just something he liked, it was more of an obsession and a necessity which i thought wasn't healthy. The sex we had afterward was steamy and good, but the fact that porn HAD to be there for the sex to be steamy and good was not normal to me.


I once had a male friend tell me exactly the same thing, except it was drugs they were using. They started using drugs before sex, and pretty soon they only wanted sex while on the drugs as it was 'better'. I guess if you start doing it you have to prepare for the possibility that you'll never get out of the loop. This is another reason I would happily steer clear of porn, and drugs, so as to avoid falling into the trap.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

The Great Porn Experiment: Gary Wilson at TEDxGlasgow - YouTube

Worth watching for those that don't think porn is a problem, and perhaps showing your spouse if they also don't believe it's an issue and you do.


----------



## AliceA

*LittleDeer* said:


> The Great Porn Experiment: Gary Wilson at TEDxGlasgow - YouTube
> 
> Worth watching for those that don't think porn is a problem, and perhaps showing your spouse if they also don't believe it's an issue and you do.


Awesome link. Definitely worthwhile watching.


----------



## AliceA

I just wanted to state my views on the difference between romance novels and porn, having read and watched both:

No women were harmed in the production of the romance novels I read. The sex written about involved talking, interaction, touching, and always, a relationship between the people involved. The most interesting parts were not the explicit descriptions of penis entering vagina, it was the build up to that point.

With the porn I've watched, it's all about the penis entering an orifice. No touching, no relationship, no build up, no love, no respect. Close up of penetration. The women I saw make the sounds they are supposed to make and assume the positions that allow the best camera shot of the penetration. To me it looked like a woman being raped and pretending to enjoy it because she needed the money.

On top of that, you have to think about what EXACTLY are you SUPPORTING by watching porn? Possibly a culture that sees sex as all about penetration and domination, not to mention prostitution. Just think about how that also effects the men watching it. All they see is a man being desirable for his large penis and permanent erection. He's not loved and desired for his tenderness, his patience, his desire to please his partner.

Anyway, that's just my take on the whole comparison thing.


----------



## Blonde

Erectile Dysfunction is a very common side effect of porn use. OP check out Your Brain On Porn


----------



## lifeistooshort

breeze said:


> I just wanted to state my views on the difference between romance novels and porn, having read and watched both:
> 
> No women were harmed in the production of the romance novels I read. The sex written about involved talking, interaction, touching, and always, a relationship between the people involved. The most interesting parts were not the explicit descriptions of penis entering vagina, it was the build up to that point.
> 
> With the porn I've watched, it's all about the penis entering an orifice. No touching, no relationship, no build up, no love, no respect. Close up of penetration. The women I saw make the sounds they are supposed to make and assume the positions that allow the best camera shot of the penetration. To me it looked like a woman being raped and pretending to enjoy it because she needed the money.
> 
> On top of that, you have to think about what EXACTLY are you SUPPORTING by watching porn? Possibly a culture that sees sex as all about penetration and domination, not to mention prostitution. Just think about how that also effects the men watching it. All they see is a man being desirable for his large penis and permanent erection. He's not loved and desired for his tenderness, his patience, his desire to please his partner.
> 
> Anyway, that's just my take on the whole comparison thing.



Such a great point. Part of what makes porn so destructive is that it depicts unrealistic acts and unhealthy relationships. Men are taking and taking while the women are drugged out, sucking on their fingers, and screaming at the to of their lungs over sexual acts that do nothing for real women. In fact a lot of them are unpleasant for real women. If it at least depicted healthy, mutually satisfying sex it might be less destructive.

Can you imagine if women were reading romance novels in which prince charming did everything for her and all she had to do was throw a handjob his way once on a while, after which she decided this is how it is so she need only throw a handjob out and he'll worship her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

breeze said:


> I just wanted to state my views on the difference between romance novels and porn, having read and watched both:
> 
> No women were harmed in the production of the romance novels I read. The sex written about involved talking, interaction, touching, and always, a relationship between the people involved. The most interesting parts were not the explicit descriptions of penis entering vagina, it was the build up to that point.
> 
> With the porn I've watched, it's all about the penis entering an orifice. No touching, no relationship, no build up, no love, no respect. Close up of penetration. The women I saw make the sounds they are supposed to make and assume the positions that allow the best camera shot of the penetration. To me it looked like a woman being raped and pretending to enjoy it because she needed the money.
> 
> On top of that, you have to think about what EXACTLY are you SUPPORTING by watching porn? Possibly a culture that sees sex as all about penetration and domination, not to mention prostitution. Just think about how that also effects the men watching it. All they see is a man being desirable for his large penis and permanent erection. *He's not loved and desired for his tenderness, his patience, his desire to please his partner.*
> 
> Anyway, that's just my take on the whole comparison thing.


:iagree:

Great post, breeze.


----------



## turnera

lifeistooshort said:


> the women are drugged out, sucking on their fingers, and screaming at the to of their lungs over sexual acts that do nothing for real women.


lol, I've had many discussions with my husband about just that. "Sure, we can try that, but you realize, right, that I have no 'zone' there and it won't do a thing for ME." So he laughs and we try something that matters to me.


----------



## lifeistooshort

turnera said:


> lol, I've had many discussions with my husband about just that. "Sure, we can try that, but you realize, right, that I have no 'zone' there and it won't do a thing for ME." So he laughs and we try something that matters to me.



It's great you guys can talk and laugh about it. My hb is also all about pleasing me so i'm motivated to respond in kind.

Sometimes we scroll through the porn channels just to make fun of the titles. They are really funny 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MSP

breeze said:


> I just wanted to state my views on the difference between romance novels and porn, having read and watched both:
> 
> No women were harmed in the production of the romance novels I read. The sex written about involved talking, interaction, touching, and always, a relationship between the people involved. The most interesting parts were not the explicit descriptions of penis entering vagina, it was the build up to that point.
> 
> With the porn I've watched, it's all about the penis entering an orifice. No touching, no relationship, no build up, no love, no respect. Close up of penetration. The women I saw make the sounds they are supposed to make and assume the positions that allow the best camera shot of the penetration. To me it looked like a woman being raped and pretending to enjoy it because she needed the money.
> 
> On top of that, you have to think about what EXACTLY are you SUPPORTING by watching porn? Possibly a culture that sees sex as all about penetration and domination, not to mention prostitution. Just think about how that also effects the men watching it. All they see is a man being desirable for his large penis and permanent erection. He's not loved and desired for his tenderness, his patience, his desire to please his partner.
> 
> Anyway, that's just my take on the whole comparison thing.


The destructiveness of romance novels comes from how they often create a restlessness in women who think they can have something better than their current partner. They also create an unrealistic fantasy standard for the husbands to live up to. And they often glorify affairs.


----------



## turnera

MSP said:


> The destructiveness of romance novels comes from how they often create a restlessness in women who think they can have something better than their current partner. They also create an unrealistic fantasy standard for the husbands to live up to. And they often glorify affairs.


Very true.


----------



## jld

It is not without risks, MSP. But can it really compare to porn?


----------



## naiveonedave

to me both come down to separating fantasy from reality. If your fantasy overtakes reality, no matter what the source (porn, romance, video games, etc.), you have issues.

It does seem like the evidence is that porn can be addictive, I know video games are, i wonder if romance novels are?


----------



## MSP

jld said:


> It is not without risks, MSP. But can it really compare to porn?


Everything can be compared to anything else, jld. That's how humans make sense of the world. But I get what you're saying: Is its destructiveness on the same scale? I don't know. So there. 

However, since women file for divorce the majority of the time and since their most often-cited reason is a simple restless unhappiness that they find difficult to properly define, other than to say that they think they can do better, then perhaps whatever it is that influences women is actually worse than porn. Perhaps not worse in regards to individual impact, but statistically worse in regards to general relationship longevity. 

Of course, I can't possibly blame divorce on romance novels (although that would make for a funny comedy skit), but there are a myriad of media influences that pull down relationships and exert some degree of dissatisfaction. Romance novels add to this negative influence for some women. I see them as one more straw on the camel's back. 

Personally, I blame country music as the source of the world's ills. I think it's the hats.


----------



## MSP

naiveonedave said:


> It does seem like the evidence is that porn can be addictive, I know video games are, i wonder if romance novels are?


All addictions are, in a sense, an addiction to chemicals we already have within our own bodies--particularly dopamine. Therefore, you can get addicted to anything. 

Even cocaine doesn't truly contain anything addictive in itself. What it does is cause the body to release dopamine in enormous amounts. And it's that dopamine release that hooks people. 

Same with caffeine, by the way. There are no calories in caffeine; therefore, caffeine does not actually give you energy. What it does is cause your body to dump adrenaline and sugar into your bloodstream, resulting in a feeling of energy from your body rapidly burning its reserves. But the energy comes from you, not the caffeine. And you pay for it later. 

There is always a come-down for any addiction, which is what leads to the desire for the next fix.


----------



## turnera

naiveonedave said:


> It does seem like the evidence is that porn can be addictive, I know video games are, i wonder if romance novels are?


When I worked at a bookstore, every month when the romance novels would be delivered (same day every month), there would literally be a line of women waiting to get them and run home and start reading. And they bought every one, not just one or two.


----------



## Caribbean Man

MSP said:


> Everything can be compared to anything else, jld. That's how humans make sense of the world. But I get what you're saying: Is its destructiveness on the same scale? I don't know. So there.
> 
> However, since women file for divorce the majority of the time and since their most often-cited reason is a simple restless unhappiness that they find difficult to properly define, other than to say that they think they can do better, then perhaps whatever it is that influences women is actually worse than porn. Perhaps not worse in regards to individual impact, but statistically worse in regards to general relationship longevity.
> 
> Of course, I can't possibly blame divorce on romance novels (although that would make for a funny comedy skit), but there are a myriad of media influences that pull down relationships and exert some degree of dissatisfaction. Romance novels add to this negative influence for some women. I see them as one more straw on the camel's back.
> 
> Personally, I blame country music as the source of the world's ills. I think it's the hats.


Romance / written erotica does to women exactly what porn does to men.

It is a form of escapism.

Some people say that porn is rewiring the male brain, but imo, porn is also rewiring the female brain. More and more women are confessing to being either hooked or dependent upon porn in order to either relieve stress or jump start their libido , before actual sex with their significant others.

Porn for for female consumers is differently scripted than that for males.

Presently, the gap between male and female consumers of porn is very narrow.


----------



## Starstarfish

MSP said:


> The destructiveness of romance,novels comes from how they often create a restlessness in women who think they can have something better than their current partner. They also create an unrealistic fantasy standard for the husbands to live up to. And they often glorify affairs.


And porn doesn't do any of that? 

Teach men to be disappointed in their 40 year old wife after two kids? To compare her to 18 year old bimbos with implants. Definitely no possibility of fantasy there. Also porn definitely doesn't glorify affairs, threesomes, or gang bangs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

Starstarfish said:


> And porn doesn't do any of that?
> 
> Teach men to be disappointed in their 40 year old wife after two kids? To compare her to 18 year old bimbos with implants. Definitely no possibility of fantasy there. Also porn definitely doesn't glorify affairs, threesomes, or gang bangs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He didn't say it doesn't. His post was in answer to someone else saying, essentially, "I don't see how romance novels are that bad." All he was showing is what romance novels do, and he is right. But he didn't say "porn is good and romance novels are bad".


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> When I worked at a bookstore, every month when the romance novels would be delivered (same day every month), there would literally be a line of women waiting to get them and run home and start reading. And they bought every one, not just one or two.


Wow. That _is _an addiction.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

MSP said:


> The destructiveness of romance novels comes from how they often create a restlessness in women who think they can have something better than their current partner. They also create an unrealistic fantasy standard for the husbands to live up to. And they often glorify affairs.


:iagree:
You said it much better than I was about to. Porn can be very destructive but people were starting to go overboard here on denial regarding erotic fiction.
The type of fiction that MSP is referring to is indeed disrespectful to the readers spouse. 

The OP hit on this pretty well...these are all issues of boundaries......the legitimate offense a spouse takes when the other is devoting some of their sexual or romantic or erotic 'energy' to something or someone other than them.


----------



## sparkyjim

honeysuckle rose said:


> He's not my best friend & porn is a big reason for that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Absolutely G-d**n fascinating thread... perhaps even more so because the "porn defenders" stayed out of it, because how can you argue when someone is really just expressing their own honest feelings...?

And SO many of the feelings shared were on point and invaluable, but for some reason this comment struck me the most....

I have to admit that I have nothing to add. I just wanted to express my thanks that this thread happened...


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Wow. That _is _an addiction.


What's worse is that those books were BAD. The modern version of dime store westerns that writers push out in a day. Use template, change names, situations, and locations, and crank 'em out. Yet those women just lapped them up, month after month after month. It WAS their porn.


----------



## soccermom2three

OMG, I can't stand it anymore. Guess what? I read romance books. I love me my Karen Marie Moning and JR Ward. I'm not afraid to admit it. I started reading them about 7 years ago. I usually read them in the summer when I'm at the beach, lake or on vacation. I call it my summer of smut. No serious reading allowed. 

I haven't read ONE romance book where the main characters are having an affair. Not one! Maybe romance novels are being confused with chick lit? I've read a couple chick lit books where the main character is having an affair. Anyway, depending on the type of romance novel, (I don't read the types Turnera describes), they can make me hot. Hot as in "Where is my husband?" 

Comparing romance novels with porn is ridiculous, IMO. Books don't substitute sex with my husband like men use porn to substitute sex with their wives. 

When men come on here and describe their sexless marriage, I haven't seen one person ask, "Does your wife read a lot of romance novels?"

When a woman posts about her sexless marriage, one of the first questions asked is "Does he watch a lot of porn?" 

There's a reason for that.


----------



## MSP

turnera said:


> What's worse is that those books were BAD. The modern version of dime store westerns that writers push out in a day. Use template, change names, situations, and locations, and crank 'em out. Yet those women just lapped them up, month after month after month. It WAS their porn.


Speaking of such things . . .


----------



## FizzBomb

Rosemary's Granddaughter said:


> I am with you. These are issues that I was upfront about while my husband and I were dating -- "deal breakers", for me. *It comes down to respect.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Totally agree. Where the bloody hell is the respect for your spouse when this is happening? :scratchhead:


----------



## FizzBomb

soccermom2three said:


> *Comparing romance novels with porn is ridiculous, IMO. Books don't substitute sex with my husband like men use porn to substitute sex with their wives.*
> 
> When men come on here and describe their sexless marriage, I haven't seen one person ask, "Does your wife read a lot of romance novels?"
> 
> When a woman posts about her sexless marriage, one of the first questions asked is "Does he watch a lot of porn?"
> 
> There's a reason for that.


Agreed. Comparing books to porn is ludicrous and people know it.

I read smutty books, look on literotica and watch porn - but I don't lie, sneak, delete history and deny my spouse sex over it.


----------



## soccermom2three

Starstarfish said:


> And porn doesn't do any of that?
> 
> Teach men to be disappointed in their 40 year old wife after two kids? To compare her to 18 year old bimbos with implants. Definitely no possibility of fantasy there. Also porn definitely doesn't glorify affairs, threesomes, or gang bangs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes! And where do you think some husbands are getting the idea that they want to watch their wives have sex with another man? These men are so addicted to porn they get desensitized and need newer and different. What's the next step? Watch live sex! "Hey I'll ask the wife!"

When I read a romance novel, I don't ask my husband, "Oh honey, can we move to the Scottish Highlands and you can wear a kilt with no shirt? Grow your hair out long and slay the evil warriors in the neighboring clan?"


----------



## FizzBomb

soccermom2three said:


> When I read a romance novel, I don't ask my husband, "Oh honey, can we move to the Scottish Highlands and you can wear a kilt with no shirt? Grow your hair out long and slay the evil warriors in the neighboring clan?"


:lol:
As the Fonz would say, 'Exacta-mundo'!


----------



## Kria

To me the core of it is this, if you have to first be turned on by someone or something else in order to be sexually intimate with your own spouse, then that means that there is a problem with either you or your feelings for your spouse that needs to be addressed.


----------



## jld

MSP said:


> However, since women file for divorce the majority of the time and since their most often-cited reason is a simple restless unhappiness that they find difficult to properly define, other than to say that they think they can do better, then perhaps whatever it is that influences women is actually worse than porn. Perhaps not worse in regards to individual impact, but statistically worse in regards to general relationship longevity.


I think it is the men's taking them for granted.


----------



## MEM2020

This kind of post is hard to read. 

It's a total no go in the real mans handbook to give your woman less sexual energy than she wants. M

This - is a type of cheating. 

It's akin to the wife who hits the vibrator during the day and rejects her man that night. 




lisab0105 said:


> I have watched soaps since I was in the 5th grade. NEVER once since I became a sexually active adult I have ever _not_ been in the mood for sex with my guy because I already got my fill from watching them for an hour, or reading one of my Nora Roberts books.
> 
> BUT what I can tell you is that my guy, the avid porn lover/defender that he is, has definitely had many nights where he was not in the mood to have sex with me because earlier in the day he already got off to porn. When he does feel like having sex with me, sometimes he is disappointed that I can't flawlessly squat on him for 15 minutes like the chicks in porn could. So really, porn defenders, don't sit here and tell us porn isn't a problem, because I am telling you, it really f'cking is.


----------



## Caribbean Man

soccermom2three said:


> Comparing romance novels with porn is ridiculous, IMO. Books don't substitute sex with my husband like men use porn to substitute sex with their wives.
> 
> .


Ok then, let's compare porn to alcohol.

Which do you think would cause more damage to a marriage , porn or alcohol?
Most likely you would say alcohol.

And do you use alcohol?
Most likely you would say yes, both my husband and I drink moderately and it has caused us absolutely no problems in our marriage.

And that could be said of hundreds of millions of other marriages. Alcohol usage has not caused them any problems.

But it can also be said that hundreds of millions of marriages have been badly affected by alcohol, and there is evidence of that right here on TAM.

It has been said that in most case of infidelity , usually alcohol is involved to some degree.

I know a few women who don't allow their husbands to drink alcohol neither do they , simply because their husbands are recovering addicts , or alcohol abusers.

The same can be said of porn.

Some people use porn and it doesn't affect them or their marriages to the point of sexless marriages or cheating.

Some people use porn and it affects them badly and they become addicted or they abuse it.

Some people don't use porn for a number of reasons , moral issues included .

If a person is opposed to porn , just like if a person is opposed to alcohol , then absolutely no one should judge them because of it. That's their right.

If a person is not opposed to porn , just like if a person is not opposed to alcohol and it doesn't affect them or their relationships, then logically, absolutely no one has any moral right to judge them.


Porn , like alcohol , affects people differently.

Porn = Escapism.
Romance Novels = Escapism.
Alcohol = Escapism.


----------



## sparkyjim

MSP said:


> However, since women file for divorce the majority of the time and since their most often-cited reason is a simple restless unhappiness that they find difficult to properly define...
> 
> 
> Personally, I blame country music as the source of the world's ills.




I can't find anything statistically to support your first claim...

On your second claim I just assume that is generally understood by everyone...


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Caribbean Man said:


> Ok then, let's compare porn to alcohol.
> 
> Which do you think would cause more damage to a marriage , porn or alcohol?
> Most likely you would say alcohol.
> 
> And do you use alcohol?
> Most likely you would say yes, both my husband and I drink moderately and it has caused us absolutely no problems in our marriage.
> 
> And that could be said of hundreds of millions of other marriages. Alcohol usage has not caused them any problems.
> 
> But it can also be said that hundreds of millions of marriages have been badly affected by alcohol, and there is evidence of that right here on TAM.
> 
> It has been said that in most case of infidelity , usually alcohol is involved to some degree.
> 
> I know a few women who don't allow their husbands to drink alcohol neither do they , simply because their husbands are recovering addicts , or alcohol abusers.
> 
> The same can be said of porn.
> 
> Some people use porn and it doesn't affect them or their marriages to the point of sexless marriages or cheating.
> 
> Some people use porn and it affects them badly and they become addicted or they abuse it.
> 
> Some people don't use porn for a number of reasons , moral issues included .
> 
> If a person is opposed to porn , just like if a person is opposed to alcohol , then absolutely no one should judge them because of it. That's their right.
> 
> If a person is not opposed to porn , just like if a person is not opposed to alcohol and it doesn't affect them or their relationships, then logically, absolutely no one has any moral right to judge them.
> 
> 
> Porn , like alcohol , affects people differently.
> 
> Porn = Escapism.
> Romance Novels = Escapism.
> Alcohol = Escapism.


Actually if you watch the link I posted from TED talks, it shows that porn is far more addictive then alcohol and drugs and far more damaging over all because of this. 

Again rarely do men complain about romance novels (Which I don't read and I don't like for various reasons) because they are not having the same impact on relationships. 

I only know a handful of women who read them, most of the women I know don't read them. 

Interestingly I have one close friend who does, her husband uses porn, however got extremely jealous when she was really into 50 shades of Grey.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*LittleDeer* said:


> Actually if you watch the link I posted from TED talks, it shows that porn is far more addictive then alcohol and drugs and far more damaging over all because of this.
> .


Sounds pretty subjective to me.

I think you or anybody anywhere would have a difficult time proving conclusively that porn , or the depiction of human sexuality in a digitized form is far more addictive and dangerous than alcohol or illegal hallucinogenic substances , to either an individual or society.

Maybe you need to show us some figures.

How many porn addicts beat , maim and kill their wives because their addiction has severely impaired their judgment?

How many porn addicts dispose of their family's earnings on porn instead of their family as compared to drug addicts and alcoholics who literally sell their family's possessions , house included, to support their addiction?

How many porn addicts have gotten behind the steering wheel of their car , wife and family inside , drove recklessly and either killed or permanently disabled their loved ones whilst under the influence of porn?

Alcohol and drug abuse are solely responsible for all of the above , which btw, hundreds of millions of women worldwide are victims of.
Not porn addiction.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Caribbean Man said:


> Sounds pretty subjective to me.
> 
> I think you or anybody anywhere would have a difficult time proving conclusively that porn , or the depiction of human sexuality in a digitized form is far more addictive and dangerous than alcohol or illegal hallucinogenic substances , to either an individual or society.
> 
> Maybe you need to show us some figures.
> 
> How many porn addicts beat , maim and kill their wives because their addiction has severely impaired their judgment?
> 
> How many porn addicts dispose of their family's earnings on porn instead of their family as compared to drug addicts and alcoholics who literally sell their family's possessions , house included, to support their addiction?
> 
> How many porn addicts have gotten behind the steering wheel of their car , wife and family inside , drove recklessly and either killed or permanently disabled their loved ones whilst under the influence of porn?
> 
> Alcohol and drug abuse are solely responsible for all of the above , which btw, hundreds of millions of women worldwide are victims of.
> Not porn addiction.


Spoken like a guy who is invested in porn. 

Most porn users cannot admit that porn might be damaging. They have a vested interest, it doesn't suit them and they don't want to admit that something they do and use and enjoy every day (or often or occasionally) could really hurt people. 

I'm not saying porn kills many people, however it does harm in many different ways. One of which is erectile dysfunction amongst so many other things. 

You won't find many people who will say drugs and alcohol don't harm people. It's however apples and oranges.


----------



## ConanHub

Caribbean Man said:


> Sounds pretty subjective to me.
> 
> I think you or anybody anywhere would have a difficult time proving conclusively that porn , or the depiction of human sexuality in a digitized form is far more addictive and dangerous than alcohol or illegal hallucinogenic substances , to either an individual or society.
> 
> Maybe you need to show us some figures.
> 
> How many porn addicts beat , maim and kill their wives because their addiction has severely impaired their judgment?
> 
> How many porn addicts dispose of their family's earnings on porn instead of their family as compared to drug addicts and alcoholics who literally sell their family's possessions , house included, to support their addiction?
> 
> How many porn addicts have gotten behind the steering wheel of their car , wife and family inside , drove recklessly and either killed or permanently disabled their loved ones whilst under the influence of porn?
> 
> Alcohol and drug abuse are solely responsible for all of the above , which btw, hundreds of millions of women worldwide are victims of.
> Not porn addiction.


Porn addicts are far more prone to attempt direct attacks against women and children because of objectification.

Too tired to give you references tonight, but will get you some interesting info soon.

Your references to drug and alcohol abuse are accurate but the affects of porn are different, but there nonetheless.

I can definitely speak from my own experiences. I never attacked anyone myself, but I certainly objectified women for quite some time and treated them as simply objects to satisfy me sexually.

I had open contempt for a woman as a person, worthy of respect.

I was apparently very attractive to women witch allowed me to take terrible advantage of many of them.


----------



## ConanHub

*LittleDeer* said:


> Spoken like a guy who is invested in porn.
> 
> Most porn users cannot admit that porn might be damaging. They have a vested interest, it doesn't suit them and they don't want to admit that something they do and use and enjoy every day (or often or occasionally) could really hurt people.
> 
> I'm not saying porn kills many people, however it does harm in many different ways. One of which is erectile dysfunction amongst so many other things.
> 
> You won't find many people who will say drugs and alcohol don't harm people. It's however apples and oranges.


I don't think CM is a consumer of porn. He simply has not experienced damage from porn or observed it himself. He, unlike me, avoided addiction or adverse affects from porn himself.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*LittleDeer* said:


> Spoken like a guy who is invested in porn.
> 
> Spoken like a woman who's projecting her own bias and negative stereotyping against an entire gender.
> 
> Most porn users cannot admit that porn might be damaging. They have a vested interest, it doesn't suit them and they don't want to admit that something they do and use and enjoy every day (or often or occasionally) could really hurt people.
> 
> Most alcohol users , romance and erotica consumers, drug users ,smokers , drug users , sex addicts , narcissists and an entire spectrum of people with personality disorders are actually the same way.
> And interestingly, all human beings fall under the spectrum of cognitive / behavioral clusters that could possibly lead to dysfunctions.
> 
> 
> I'm not saying porn kills many people, however it does harm in many different ways. One of which is erectile dysfunction amongst so many other things.
> 
> Erectile dysfunction can only harm the owner of a penis.With or without porn erectile dysfunction has been around since the penis came into being. Porn does not cause ED, excessive masturbation among other things would cause ED. ED can only harm one person, that is the owner of a penis.
> Emotional detachment or the fear of intimacy is what hurts a relationship. Porn addiction is the mental " crutch" that porn addicts use as a form sublimation to deal with that inability or fear of emotional attachment.
> Alcohol , Romance / erotica novels and drugs are also crutches used by addicts to achieve the same end.
> 
> 
> You won't find many people who will say drugs and alcohol don't harm people. It's however apples and oranges.
> 
> Err, no.
> I never said drugs and alcohol doesn't harm people , I said they do more harm than porn.
> You're shifting the goalpost to suit your bias again.
> You said that porn was more dangerous and did more harm to marriages than drugs or alcohol.
> I said that your view was subjective.
> You started comparing the effects of porn to alcohol and drug use, so logically, you started the apples and oranges contrast.


----------



## FizzBomb

Caribbean Man said:


> Ok then, let's compare porn to alcohol.
> 
> Which do you think would cause more damage to a marriage , porn or alcohol?
> Most likely you would say alcohol.
> 
> And do you use alcohol?
> Most likely you would say yes, both my husband and I drink moderately and it has caused us absolutely no problems in our marriage.
> 
> And that could be said of hundreds of millions of other marriages. Alcohol usage has not caused them any problems.
> 
> But it can also be said that hundreds of millions of marriages have been badly affected by alcohol, and there is evidence of that right here on TAM.
> 
> It has been said that in most case of infidelity , usually alcohol is involved to some degree.
> 
> I know a few women who don't allow their husbands to drink alcohol neither do they , simply because their husbands are recovering addicts , or alcohol abusers.
> 
> The same can be said of porn.
> 
> Some people use porn and it doesn't affect them or their marriages to the point of sexless marriages or cheating.
> 
> Some people use porn and it affects them badly and they become addicted or they abuse it.
> 
> Some people don't use porn for a number of reasons , moral issues included .
> 
> If a person is opposed to porn , just like if a person is opposed to alcohol , then absolutely no one should judge them because of it. That's their right.
> 
> If a person is not opposed to porn , just like if a person is not opposed to alcohol and it doesn't affect them or their relationships, then logically, absolutely no one has any moral right to judge them.
> 
> 
> Porn , like alcohol , affects people differently.
> 
> Porn = Escapism.
> Romance Novels = Escapism.
> Alcohol = Escapism.


Porn, Dirty Reading, Alcohol - All different animals imo.

It is beyond ludicrous to equate porn watching with dirty reading.

How many men are on here b/c their wives are reading romance novels and masturbating to them as well as lying about it, hiding books and making up lame excuses not to have sex? One? Two? I think I've seen one on these forums.

Now, how many women are on here and saying their husbands are lying, deleting browser history and wanking off to porn and/or live cam web girls interactive porn. And replacing them with porn? Too MANY to count.

Books you use your imagination. Porn you just sit there with your d!ck/vag in your hand.


----------



## Mr The Other

Blondilocks said:


> A woman says she doesn't like porn. Doesn't like how it makes her feel, doesn't like how it affects her husband, doesn't like how it affects her marriage. So what do the men here do? They tell her if that's as bad as it gets, jump for joy. They tell her to embrace it and watch it herself. What the holy cluck?
> 
> If a man didn't like chocolate, do you think he would appreciate being told to immerse himself in it or thank the stars that it's only candy and suck it up and eat. After-all, surveys say that 68% of men like if not love chocolate. No men I have ever known had the slightest objection to chocolate.
> 
> Who gives a rat's patoot about what 99.99999% of the world thinks about something. If a person doesn't like it, they don't like it and it doesn't make them wrong.


I agree that she should not feel obliged to immerse herself in it, she does not have to condone it. However, when a man on here complains that his wife is putting on weight, the reaction is that he should be grateful if that is the worst problem.

If the man was spending hours a day on the internet, there would be an issue. That he was caught taking a peak (as seems to be the case here) should, IMO, not be a major issue.


----------



## sparkyjim

Eventually this thread was going to dissolve into the porn vs romance novel, addiction yes/no, which is worse alcohol or porn, (and now porn vs fat?) arguments that it always does...

But for awhile it was a very interesting read....

I am glad it lasted as long as it did.


----------



## Maricha75

*LittleDeer* said:


> Spoken like a guy who is invested in porn.


No. CM has stated more than once that he AND his wife used to, but no longer do, watch porn. My husband and I DO NOT. He has seen it, but that was when he was a teen. My PERSONAL feelings are that it is disgusting. But you know what? I found myself actually agreeing with CM's post.



*LittleDeer* said:


> Most porn users cannot admit that porn might be damaging. They have a vested interest, it doesn't suit them and they don't want to admit that something they do and use and enjoy every day (or often or occasionally) could really hurt people.


Funny, I've heard the same said about drug addicts, and alcoholics. You know, the old excuse "I can handle it" that has been thrown out for YEARS regarding alcohol consumption. I've had family and friends who are/were alcoholics. And, just as you described above, they didn't see how THEIR drinking was hurting anyone.



*LittleDeer* said:


> I'm not saying porn kills many people, however it does harm in many different ways. One of which is erectile dysfunction amongst so many other things.


And ED can happen without porn, too. I'm not saying that porn ADDICTS don't have this issue, but neither will I shame someone who has a different view from me. And, honestly, LD, that is exactly what your posts are full of: shaming. You don't like it, fine. Neither do I. At the same time, those who DO like it, and are OPEN with their SOs, and the SOs are FINE with it, I refuse to condemn them. They have been told, ad nauseum, on other threads. I'm fairly certain they KNOW, because you have stated it, over and over and over again, LD. They aren't going to change their position on porn. And neither are you. This is just going to continue going in circles, no one budging.



*LittleDeer* said:


> You won't find many people who will say drugs and alcohol don't harm people. It's however apples and oranges.


Addiction is addiction, whether it is porn, alcohol, drugs, gaming, etc. ALL have the potential to harm a person, and even a relationship. It isn't apples and oranges.



The sad thing about this thread is that it DID start off civil... and look where it is now. With the exception of ONE person saying OP needs to get over it, everyone else has said her feelings are valid... and they are. But look how much this thread has degraded. The worst part is that the "pro-porn people aren't posting, yet some anti-porn feel the need to turn this htread into a porn bashing thread. That wasn't even the INTENT of the OP!


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Maricha75 said:


> No. CM has stated more than once that he AND his wife used to, but no longer do, watch porn. My husband and I DO NOT. He has seen it, but that was when he was a teen. My PERSONAL feelings are that it is disgusting. But you know what? I found myself actually agreeing with CM's post.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, I've heard the same said about drug addicts, and alcoholics. You know, the old excuse "I can handle it" that has been thrown out for YEARS regarding alcohol consumption. I've had family and friends who are/were alcoholics. And, just as you described above, they didn't see how THEIR drinking was hurting anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> And ED can happen without porn, too. I'm not saying that porn ADDICTS don't have this issue, but neither will I shame someone who has a different view from me. And, honestly, LD, that is exactly what your posts are full of: shaming. You don't like it, fine. Neither do I. At the same time, those who DO like it, and are OPEN with their SOs, and the SOs are FINE with it, I refuse to condemn them. They have been told, ad nauseum, on other threads. I'm fairly certain they KNOW, because you have stated it, over and over and over again, LD. They aren't going to change their position on porn. And neither are you. This is just going to continue going in circles, no one budging.
> 
> 
> 
> Addiction is addiction, whether it is porn, alcohol, drugs, gaming, etc. ALL have the potential to harm a person, and even a relationship. It isn't apples and oranges.
> 
> 
> 
> The sad thing about this thread is that it DID start off civil... and look where it is now. With the exception of ONE person saying OP needs to get over it, everyone else has said her feelings are valid... and they are. But look how much this thread has degraded. The worst part is that the "pro-porn people aren't posting, yet some anti-porn feel the need to turn this htread into a porn bashing thread. That wasn't even the INTENT of the OP!


Yes it's all the anti porn people's fault. 
I guess because they don't agree with me they must be trying to shame me too? Or does it only go one way? 
Seriously. :/ I find that amusing. 

I never said ED can't happen without porn, but it is happening at alarming rates in porn users. There are plenty of studies out there if you care to look. 

I started by posting one link and a few sentences, sorry that me responding to other people's long winded posting has upset you so much.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Caribbean Man said:


> Spoken like a woman who's projecting her own bias and negative stereotyping against an entire gender.


No I actually have never had a partner with a porn problem. But I'm pretty clear about my own boundaries, so it's a non issue for me. 

However I did once read an article stating that asking porn users to objective is like asking an someone addicted to anything to tell you the downsides. 




> Most alcohol users , romance and erotica consumers, drug users ,smokers , drug users , sex addicts , narcissists and an entire spectrum of people with personality disorders are actually the same way.
> And interestingly, all human beings fall under the spectrum of cognitive / behavioral clusters that could possibly lead to dysfunctions.


Disagree, as if you watch the TED talk you will see from the data that of those who are now growing up watching Internet porn there is a much higher percentage of men with a range of problems from it. However any addiction is bad and people should be able to draw their own boundaries. 

The difference is if I don't like drinking and my spouse does, it doesn't effect me unless he has an addiction, then I have every right to not put up with that. With porn it does effect relationships, it's sexual, in the past most couples turned to each other, now people turn to the Internet/porn. 200 years ago most men did not have access to millions of images or women. 





> Erectile dysfunction can only harm the owner of a penis.With or without porn erectile dysfunction has been around since the penis came into being. Porn does not cause ED, excessive masturbation among other things would cause ED. ED can only harm one person, that is the owner of a penis.


Really erectile dysfunction doesn't hurt relationships? I beg to differ! 
I think if you watched the TED link it's clearly explained why watching porn effects the brain and leads to erectile dysfunction, and to say otherwise is doing a disservice to the millions of men who have this problem and the millions of women coupled to a man and suffer because of it. 



> Emotional detachment or the fear of intimacy is what hurts a relationship. Porn addiction is the mental " crutch" that porn addicts use as a form sublimation to deal with that inability or fear of emotional attachment.
> Alcohol , Romance / erotica novels and drugs are also crutches used by addicts to achieve the same end.


Again if that were true, we would see just as many posts on here by men who were upset by erotica. I'm not saying it's never a problem, but clearly it's not doing the same thing to women or their relationships. 



> Err, no.
> I never said drugs and alcohol doesn't harm people , I said they do more harm than porn.
> You're shifting the goalpost to suit your bias again.
> You said that porn was more dangerous and did more harm to marriages than drugs or alcohol.
> I said that your view was subjective.
> You started comparing the effects of porn to alcohol and drug use, so logically, you started the apples and oranges contrast.


Err no I never shifted any goal posts. At all! 
And I disagree, and I think that in the future we will see more and more of an issue because of porn. Marriage counsellors and psychologists etc are already seeing an influx in problems from porn. 

If it wasn't causing much of a problem there wouldn't be thousands of posts on here about it by women who were hurting and in pain because of there spouses porn use. 
And no I believe if you read back it was you who first used the drug analogy. 
Here


Caribbean Man said:


> Ok then, let's compare porn to alcohol.


----------



## AliceA

Lol, don't all get your knickers/jocks in knots, if you're wearing any...

People can agree or disagree with the effects of porn etc, no need to get upset that they don't see the world the way you do. So what if a thread ends up with people disagreeing; this makes for interesting discussions and points people may not have thought about. Don't be so afraid of discussing different opinions people.


----------



## Maricha75

*LittleDeer* said:


> Yes it's all the anti porn people's fault.
> 
> Seriously. :/ I find that amusing.
> 
> I never said ED can't happen without porn, but it is happening at alarming rates in porn users. There are plenty of studies out there if you care to look.
> 
> I started by posting one link and a few sentences, sorry that me responding to other people's long winded posting has upset you so much.


And that's all you took from my post: "It's all the anti porn people's fault". Seriously? Did you MISS the part where I stated that *I AM ALSO ANTI PORN*??? No, my problem is that it seems EVERY time a thread pops up regarding porn, in any way, you bring out the same links, the same argument....even when there is NO real argument for or against it to begin with. It would be nice if, FOR ONCE, one of these threads actually didn't degrade into the majority of "antis" slamming those who even glance at porn, and the majority of "pros" feeling the need to defend their choice to watch it, even WITH their SOs. But what do I know? I'm just an "anti" who is sick of the bickering.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Maricha75 said:


> And that's all you took from my post: "It's all the anti porn people's fault". Seriously? Did you MISS the part where I stated that *I AM ALSO ANTI PORN*??? No, my problem is that it seems EVERY time a thread pops up regarding porn, in any way, you bring out the same links, the same argument....even when there is NO real argument for or against it to begin with. It would be nice if, FOR ONCE, one of these threads actually didn't degrade into the majority of "antis" slamming those who even glance at porn, and the majority of "pros" feeling the need to defend their choice to watch it, even WITH their SOs. But what do I know? I'm just an "anti" who is sick of the bickering.


Actually I've never posted that link before- ever. 
And so what if I did? 
And I find the same arguments cropping up about how written erotica is the same as porn. 

It would be nice if these threads didn't deteriorate into those who are anti feeling they need to defend why they are. Or hang on- are both sides putting up their POV? :scratchhead:

Weird didn't think I was debating myself, I seem to see that people are posting from both sides, or else this thread wouldn't be so many pages long already. And was already long before I posted. 

I'm finding your attack on me quite puzzling.

FYI my first post for the OP.


*LittleDeer* said:


> The Great Porn Experiment: Gary Wilson at TEDxGlasgow - YouTube
> 
> Worth watching for those that don't think porn is a problem, and perhaps showing your spouse if they also don't believe it's an issue and you do.


Second post, which was in response to CM talking about other addictions and lit erotica or whatever. Neither of those bought up by me. 


*LittleDeer* said:


> Actually if you watch the link I posted from TED talks, it shows that porn is far more addictive then alcohol and drugs and far more damaging over all because of this.
> 
> Again rarely do men complain about romance novels (Which I don't read and I don't like for various reasons) because they are not having the same impact on relationships.
> 
> I only know a handful of women who read them, most of the women I know don't read them.
> 
> Interestingly I have one close friend who does, her husband uses porn, however got extremely jealous when she was really into 50 shades of Grey.


Personally I prefer to stick to the topic, and would not attack you for posting your opinion/ links/ studies.


----------



## sparkyjim

breeze said:


> So what if a thread ends up with people disagreeing; this makes for interesting discussions and points people may not have thought about. Don't be so afraid of discussing different opinions people.


Been there, done that, and will go there again sometime...

but this thread had a refreshing view point for a while... more about feelings - less about I'm right/you're wrong. 

It's kind of hard to ignore someone when they say "I don't care how you *WANT* me to feel...porn makes me feel like this..."


----------



## DoF

I don't agree with A LOT of what is said in this thread. I'm sorry.

I really hate to lump people into one here (so this is for those that it applies to ONLY) but you can't say "if a guy watches porn eventually they will do a,b and c".

One of the best examples is the person that says "comparing your wife to a perfect 18 year old with implants".

I'm sorry sweet heart, but NO 18 year old can EVER EVER EVER be compared to my wife (porn star or not). We are talking girl vs a woman, mother of children and the most important person in my life.

It's like comparing a grain of sand on the beach to MARS!!!!

And implants only make things worse, I'm sorry.

No woman in porn, EVER, can come even REMOTELY close to being my wife. And watching porn does NOT change that. 

My wife's body is FAR FAR FAR from perfect. Guess what, I love it just they way it is. Heck, the imperfections and her sacrifice for our children is actually VERY attractive to me and I value it greatly. 

My wife's body > any body. But that's just me (I know plenty of men don't feel this way).

I realize that to some women this behavior is hurtful and shows no love etc, but the truth is, porn has NOTHING to do with love.

It's simply watching bunch of people ****. Nothing less, nothing more (to some anyways).

CAN it be hurtful? Sure

is it hurtful to relationships, you bet your ass it is

Is it ALWAYS hurtful. Sorry but no. It depends on the person and how far they take it/run with it. And this applies to men as much as women!!!

Personally, I don't see a big deal with porn being part of relationships as long as both people agree on it and identify/notice any issue related to porn as it comes > and deal with it appropriately.


----------



## Maricha75

*LittleDeer* said:


> Second post, which was in response to CM talking about other addictions and lit erotica or whatever. Neither of those bought up by me.


And this was your follow up post...which is the one that got to me, really. Especially the line in bold, since CM already stated that he and his wife do not watch porn... not that they never did, but they do not now. And it was, and always has been, a mutual decision.



*LittleDeer* said:


> *Spoken like a guy who is invested in porn. *
> 
> Most porn users cannot admit that porn might be damaging. They have a vested interest, it doesn't suit them and they don't want to admit that something they do and use and enjoy every day (or often or occasionally) could really hurt people.
> 
> I'm not saying porn kills many people, however it does harm in many different ways. One of which is erectile dysfunction amongst so many other things.
> 
> You won't find many people who will say drugs and alcohol don't harm people. It's however apples and oranges.





*LittleDeer* said:


> Personally I prefer to stick to the topic, and would not attack you for posting your opinion/ links/ studies.


I have no links or studies about porn because it isn't something that affects my marriage. My husband and I agreed, from the beginning, that it was not something we wanted in our relationship. I do not disagree that porn is, or can be, addictive. But I would argue that someone whose life has been touched by both porn use and alcoholism might argue that the alcohol was WAY worse than the porn, as far as addiction is concerned. Really, addiction is addiction, no matter what it is.


----------



## turnera

IMO, the bottom line is, pick someone who doesn't have compulsive tendencies, for porn OR romance novels or licorice or the color pink or whatever...and you'll have a better life.


----------



## DoF

turnera said:


> IMO, the bottom line is, pick someone who doesn't have compulsive tendencies, for porn OR romance novels or licorice or the color pink or whatever...and you'll have a better life.


This is great advice.

I think everyone has these tendencies (it's only natural for humans). But when it's taken to extreme (as with anything) it is a bad sign and above is true.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Maricha75 said:


> And this was your follow up post...which is the one that got to me, really. Especially the line in bold, since CM already stated that he and his wife do not watch porn... not that they never did, but they do not now. And it was, and always has been, a mutual decision.
> 
> I have no links or studies about porn because it isn't something that affects my marriage. My husband and I agreed, from the beginning, that it was not something we wanted in our relationship. I do not disagree that porn is, or can be, addictive. But I would argue that someone whose life has been touched by both porn use and alcoholism might argue that the alcohol was WAY worse than the porn, as far as addiction is concerned. Really, addiction is addiction, no matter what it is.


It was relevant to the topic, I think any one who uses/ used supports porn has a vested interest in it. 

You however accused me of starting a bunch of things I did not, and was merely responding to and tried to insinuate I shouldn't be posting my opinion/ links. That I ruined the thread. 

I think going OT to belittle someone for posting, just because they said something you didn't like to one of your buddies kind of ruins the thread. 

And for the record many times in that past I have disagreed with CM, it doesn't mean I don't respect him or his opinion, I simply don't agree with his stance on porn. We often agree and often disagree. 

I was posting a link I thought the OP might find helpful.


----------



## turnera

*LittleDeer* said:


> It was relevant to the topic, I think any one who uses/ used supports porn has a vested interest in it.


I've been married 34 years. We've used it about 10 times. And had fun doing it. I wouldn't call that a vested interest. 

I DO, however, have a vested interest in combatting extreme my way is the only way views.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

turnera said:


> I've been married 34 years. We've used it about 10 times. And had fun doing it. I wouldn't call that a vested interest.
> 
> I DO, however, have a vested interest in combatting extreme my way is the only way views.


Yeah me too.


----------



## sparkyjim

DoF said:


> Personally, I don't see a big deal with porn being part of relationships as long as both people agree on it and identify/notice any issue related to porn as it comes > and deal with it appropriately.


Which is exactly what this thread was about ... at the beginning...

I can appreciate what you are saying about loving your wife's body. The point then would be that if she was not okay with your watching porn you would not have any problem with giving it up. I mean it is just a natural extension that if you love your wife's body then you also love everything in it and you care about her feelings.

The problem comes when a man puts porn ahead of his wife's feelings. In truth when he does this he does himself a big disservice. He hurts his own sexual success. Most times he is not even aware how...


----------



## DoF

sparkyjim said:


> I can appreciate what you are saying about loving your wife's body. The point then would be that if she was not okay with your watching porn you would not have any problem with giving it up. I mean it is just a natural extension that if you love your wife's body then you also love everything in it and you care about her feelings.


Correct. And she is not ok with me watching porn for her own reasons (insecurities etc, and things that some women discuss here). Do I have problem with giving it up, not at all. No big deal.

Do I have a problem with giving up due to person's body insecurities etc, yes, by complying you will only enable them to harbor those feelings even more.

My communication to my wife is clear. I love her, I love her body, we have great sex and everything is amazing on that end. She feels the same way. 

It is NOT my fault she chooses to ignore what I feel and still feel that somehow watching porn will make me like "perfect bodies etc". Sorry, but no. And I have expressed that to her.

My wife also thinks that it's ok to watch porn if the woman is her size or bigger. To me that's kind of silly and more evidence of her insecurity and fact that she ignores what I feel about her and her body.

It's one thing to ask your loved one not to do so because you have insecurities etc and another when that behavior causes major issues in a relationship.

1st part is on the person with insecurities.

2nd part is on the person doing the deed.



sparkyjim said:


> The problem comes when a man puts porn ahead of his wife's feelings. In truth when he does this he does himself a big disservice. He hurts his own sexual success. Most times he is not even aware how...


They can YES, but I don't feel that way.

If you were to ask my wife, she would probably tell you that my sexual success is WAY beyond her expectations.

Again, depends on the person.

I don't think I do any disservice to myself by watching porn, not at all. Mind you, I don't do it daily, I don't even remember the last time I actually watched it (few weeks ago maybe).

Am I wrong by doing so? YES

Am I perfect? NO

Just being honest. Don't hold that against me please.


----------



## Wolf1974

turnera said:


> IMO, the bottom line is, pick someone who doesn't have compulsive tendencies, for porn OR romance novels or licorice or the color pink or whatever...and you'll have a better life.


:iagree:

If this is a huge deal breaker than that should be headed off prior to getting married......I give a reasonable birth for if you're young and stupid cause I've been there and get that. But if this is a deal breaker for you, and I respect that it could be, don't get married and expect this to change. This goes the same for guys marrying a woman with a princess mentality.


----------



## always_alone

I agree with OP, I find porn to be a total libido and intimacy killer. 

If he wants 18-year old porn girl, then he can have her. But the cost is that I no longer really care about whether I please him or not, or if he gets anything goes out of our sexual encounters. I figure if he's not satisfied, he always has his world full of 18-year-old porn girls to turn to. 

I also feel much less connected to him, and figure our relationship is just one of convenience. I pay the bills and can get him to the hospital if he gets sick. He manages the house and can scrape me off the floor if I have a stroke. Basically, we're just each other's emergency contacts. 

If he wants more intimacy than that, he can go ask 18-year-old porn girl.


----------



## turnera

My H always points out the hot young girls. Sometimes make a joke about hooking up with one of them. I just laugh and say 'you go, tiger, see what you can get.' He laughs, too, and we move on to other topics.


----------



## turnera

always_alone said:


> I agree with OP, I find porn to be a total libido and intimacy killer.
> 
> If he wants 18-year old porn girl, then he can have her. But the cost is that I no longer really care about whether I please him or not, or if he gets anything goes out of our sexual encounters. I figure if he's not satisfied, he always has his world full of 18-year-old porn girls to turn to.
> 
> I also feel much less connected to him, and figure our relationship is just one of convenience. I pay the bills and can get him to the hospital if he gets sick. He manages the house and can scrape me off the floor if I have a stroke. Basically, we're just each other's emergency contacts.
> 
> If he wants more intimacy than that, he can go ask 18-year-old porn girl.


Sounds like this has more to do with other things than just porn?


----------



## MSP

soccermom2three said:


> When a woman posts about her sexless marriage, one of the first questions asked is "Does he watch a lot of porn?"
> 
> There's a reason for that.


Yes, there is a good reasons for it. The typical path is as follows:

Woman wears the pants and shows little respect for husband. Sex is minimal and either "duty" sex or a controlled environment. Husband withdraws, watches porn, sulks. Wife feels neglected, finds out husband watches porn, feels like he is cheating on her and separates.


----------



## MSP

Caribbean Man said:


> I think you or anybody anywhere would have a difficult time proving conclusively that porn , or the depiction of human sexuality in a digitized form is far more addictive and dangerous than alcohol or illegal hallucinogenic substances , to either an individual or society.


Actually, hallucinogenic drugs can have positive effects. Studies have shown that people have broken free from serious mental illnesses such as schizophrenia and OCD through the controlled in-lab use of hallucinogens. 

Not that I'm advocating them. But I always find anything to do with the brain interesting. 

Links:

Could an Acid Trip Cure Your OCD? | DiscoverMagazine.com

Psilocybin in the Treatment of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

Psychedelic drugs return as potential treatments for mental illness | Moheb Costandi | Science | theguardian.com

Psychedelics not linked with mental health problems - NTNU


----------



## Maricha75

LD, I apologize that my posts appeared to be attacking you for posting in this thread. My comments were more about things I have seen in other threads, which deteriorated once the posts turned to "you're horrible for watching it."... There have been times I have agreed with your posts. In fact, I do NOT have an issue with link having been posted. I think, if it helps OP, then great. What got me upset was the "Spoken like a guy who is invested in porn." Like others, I have agreed with CM about some things, and disagreed with him about others. He's not "one of [my] buddies." Yes, I am anti porn. But if a couple is in agreement about porn, and both agree that it is fine FOR THEM, that's their choice. I'm not going to tell them "my way is the only way", nor do I think it is right to tell anti porn people that they need to "suck it up". If the couple is in agreement, great. If not, then you see what can be done on BOTH sides to resolve the conflict.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> My H always points out the hot young girls. Sometimes make a joke about hooking up with one of them. I just laugh and say 'you go, tiger, see what you can get.' He laughs, too, and we move on to other topics.


You must be very confident in yourself, turnera, to be able to hear that and laugh. It would break my heart to hear something like that from dh.


----------



## LongWalk

Porn is a meal of oil laden sugary junk food, with too much salt to boot. No one consuming it can sit down to a wholesome dinner and enjoy food that is good for them. Fix It, I know you are here to vent, but it would be great if you could succeed in getting your husband to save himself. He will be happier and you may reconnect.

If it's an addiction, he needs to go cold turkey. 

re: comparison of romance fiction and television nonsense with porn

It would be interesting to know if brain chemistry is changed by romance novels and chick flicks. Porn watching for hours cannot be without physiological affects.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> You must be very confident in yourself, turnera, to be able to hear that and laugh. It would break my heart to hear something like that from dh.


If you trust each other, why can you not laugh? HE knows he's not going anywhere, I know he's not going anywhere, so why not joke about being a typical jerk guy who chases women? We both know it's not gonna happen. 

Now, if I felt he really WOULD cheat on me like most of his worthless acquaintances, I'd have a different outlook.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Dh used porn A LOT when he was single and not having sex at all for 5-6 years. He's an odd one though bc his porn preference was just amateurs having regular sex.My preferences are all over the place for the images that I like looking at. Tumblr is my fav We've had numerous discussions about it. I don't have a problem with porn at all when it's done in the open. Lie to me about it and we'll have a serious issue. DH went cold turkey w/porn bc he says he doesn't have a use for it and it doesn't do anything for him anymore. I still like looking at tumblr every now and then to sort of change gears from work time to sex time. He is learning that it isn't a bad mark on him and he has no reason to feel insecure about it.

HOWEVER, if he flat out told me it was making him feel inferior and insecure and just plain terrible I would never look at tumblr again. 

Some people aren't ok with doing that for their spouse and that's why the porn issue needs to be openly and honestly discussed at the beginning. And for f**k's sake people (mostly men) QUIT LYING AND HIDING!! Just come out and say you enjoy unwinding with a beat off session to porn bc when she finds out later you may find yourself in a world of turmoil and eventually back on the dating circuit.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

MSP said:


> Yes, there is a good reasons for it. The typical path is as follows:
> 
> Woman wears the pants and shows little respect for husband. Sex is minimal and either "duty" sex or a controlled environment. Husband withdraws, watches porn, sulks. Wife feels neglected, finds out husband watches porn, feels like he is cheating on her and separates.


Funny. 
There are plenty of women who post in here, who most definitely do not "wear the pants" who are being taken advantage of and disrespected and on top of that rejected in favour of porn. 
There are as many women on the receiving end of sexless marriages as men (the stats have been posted before by other members).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> If you trust each other, why can you not laugh? HE knows he's not going anywhere, I know he's not going anywhere, so why not joke about being a typical jerk guy who chases women? We both know it's not gonna happen.
> 
> Now, if I felt he really WOULD cheat on me like most of his worthless acquaintances, I'd have a different outlook.


That's what I mean: you are confident, turnera.  You are a very strong woman.

I am sensitive. Even hearing something like that would just cut straight to my heart.


----------



## karole

jld said:


> You must be very confident in yourself, turnera, to be able to hear that and laugh. It would break my heart to hear something like that from dh.


Didn't you post in another thread that you tell your husband whenever you are attracted to another man? So it's okay for you to do it, but not him?


----------



## tacoma

ScarletBegonias said:


> And for f**k's sake people (mostly men) QUIT LYING AND HIDING!! .


While this is right and there should be no lying and hiding you need to understand that usually the reasons for it aren't nefarious or even rational.

Most men have spent their entire lives being shamed, humiliated, threatened, and punished for what is essentially their natural sexuality ever since they discovered masturbation.

The lying and hiding is a pretty natural response that has been indoctrinated into them since puberty.

They have to actually learn to be open with it and that's not likely if they're getting the same shaming and anger from their wives that they've been getting from their mother, preacher, and every girl they were ever with for their entire lives.

Just sayin'.


----------



## MSP

*LittleDeer* said:


> Funny.
> There are plenty of women who post in here, who most definitely do not "wear the pants" who are being taken advantage of and disrespected and on top of that rejected in favour of porn.
> There are as many women on the receiving end of sexless marriages as women (the stats have been posted before by other members).


Glad I could lighten your day. 

From my own experiences with hundreds of couples, what I wrote previously is far more the norm than what you wrote, above. 

But you're definitely wrong about the sexless marriage proportions. It's about 70% to 30%, husbands suffering to wives suffering.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

tacoma said:


> While this is right and there should be no lying and hiding you need to understand that usually the reasons for it aren't nefarious or even rational.
> 
> Most men have spent their entire lives being shamed, humiliated, threatened, and punished for what is essentially their natural sexuality ever since they discovered masturbation.
> 
> The lying and hiding is a pretty natural response that has been indoctrinated into them since puberty.
> 
> They have to actually learn to be open with it and that's not likely if they're getting the same shaming and anger from their wives that they've been getting from their mother, preacher, and every girl they were ever with for their entire lives.
> 
> Just sayin'.


Exactly,I totally realize this and have sympathy for the men on this one. But at some point they're going to have to realize it's better for them to be open even if it causes trouble. 
At some point a man needs to realize it's better to be who he is and be open about it from the start. How is he ever going to find a suitable match for himself if he's an avid porn user but denies it when asked? He'll end up with someone who doesn't share his real view about it. His lie is costing him more than the truth ever would.


----------



## soccermom2three

*Re: Re: One Wife's Totally Honest Post About Porn*



MSP said:


> Yes, there is a good reasons for it. The typical path is as follows:
> 
> Woman wears the pants and shows little respect for husband. Sex is minimal and either "duty" sex or a controlled environment. Husband withdraws, watches porn, sulks. Wife feels neglected, finds out husband watches porn, feels like he is cheating on her and separates.


No. A woman that comes here wondering why her husband won't have sex with her WANTS to have sex with her husband. 

If a woman wanted to only give minimal sex and and duty sex, she would be relieved that her husband is keeping occupied with porn.


----------



## jld

tacoma said:


> While this is right and there should be no lying and hiding you need to understand that usually the reasons for it aren't nefarious or even rational.
> 
> Most men have spent their entire lives being shamed, humiliated, threatened, and punished for what is essentially their natural sexuality ever since they discovered masturbation.
> 
> The lying and hiding is a pretty natural response that has been indoctrinated into them since puberty.
> 
> They have to actually learn to be open with it and that's not likely if they're getting the same shaming and anger from their wives that they've been getting from their mother, preacher, and every girl they were ever with for their entire lives.
> 
> Just sayin'.


It is hard to accept ourselves as we are. It is a challenge for all of us.

It is great when we are in a supportive atmosphere. When we are not, it is that much harder.

But if we are able to become transparent, at least with ourselves, we benefit so much. We are stronger for accepting ourselves. And then we really can change.


----------



## tacoma

ScarletBegonias said:


> Exactly,I totally realize this and have sympathy for the men on this one. But at some point they're going to have to realize it's better for them to be open even if it causes trouble.
> At some point a man needs to realize it's better to be who he is and be open about it from the start. How is he ever going to find a suitable match for himself if he's an avid porn user but denies it when asked? He'll end up with someone who doesn't share his real view about it. His lie is costing him more than the truth ever would.


Hey, you're talking to a guy who once dumped a girl because she was *****ing about my room mates Playboy so I agree completely.


I'm just saying it's easier said than done once you've already married a guy before realizing he watched porn (who does that?)

You're going to have a much better chance helping him open up about it if you aren't continuing the cycle of threatening ultimatums.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

tacoma said:


> You're going to have a much better chance helping him open up about it if you aren't continuing the cycle of threatening ultimatums.


:iagree:


----------



## tacoma

soccermom2three said:


> No. A woman that comes here wondering why her husband won't have sex with her WANTS to have sex with her husband.
> 
> If a woman wanted to only give minimal sex and and duty sex, she would be relieved that her husband is keeping occupied with porn.


Actually this isn't always true.

There have been numerous women here complaining about their husbands porn use and demanding he stop.

Once the thread gets going it's realized she doesn't like or want sex and has instituted a sexless relationship AND STILL demands he give up the porn.

It happens often enough.


----------



## MSP

soccermom2three said:


> No. A woman that comes here wondering why her husband won't have sex with her WANTS to have sex with her husband.
> 
> If a woman wanted to only give minimal sex and and duty sex, she would be relieved that her husband is keeping occupied with porn.


I knew that I'd get this kind of reception when I posted. I'm only going to reply this one last time.

Addressing your points in order:

Firstly, women may want to have sex with their husbands, but when they're wearing the pants in the relationship and their husbands feel like lesser men, the husbands lose interest. Biologically speaking, men who lead have more testosterone and men whose wives wear the pants have less testosterone, so their reluctance is not even a conscious decision. 

Secondly, even just reading the threads here on TAM it should be very obvious that there are loads of wives out there who refuse sex with their husbands, yet get extremely upset with the thought of him getting his sexual needs met elsewhere, either from porn or whatever. There are threads like this pretty regularly from the guys frustrated with their LD wives. You see it all the time. It is rare, although definitely not unheard of, for a LD wife to tell her husband that she doesn't care if he gets himself off without her. The attitude is more like, 'I don't want it, but I do not want you do do it without me, either'.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

tacoma said:


> Actually this isn't always true.
> 
> There have been numerous women here complaining about their husbands porn use and demanding he stop.
> 
> Once the thread gets going it's realized she doesn't like or want sex and has instituted a sexless relationship AND STILL demands he give up the porn.
> 
> It happens often enough.


I've seen that probably more times than the ones who are saying they want sex w/their husbands but the husbands are addicted to porn.

Although currently there are quite a few running threads about women married to men who enjoy porn but won't have sex with the wife often.


----------



## LongWalk

ScarletBegonias said:


> Dh used porn A LOT when he was single and not having sex at all for 5-6 years. He's an odd one though bc his porn preference *was just amateurs having regular sex. *My preferences are all over the place for the images that I like looking at. Tumblr is my fav We've had numerous discussions about it. I don't have a problem with porn at all when it's done in the open. Lie to me about it and we'll have a serious issue. DH went cold turkey w/porn bc he says he doesn't have a use for it and it doesn't do anything for him anymore. I still like looking at tumblr every now and then to sort of change gears from work time to sex time. He is learning that it isn't a bad mark on him and he has no reason to feel insecure about it.
> 
> HOWEVER, if he flat out told me it was making him feel inferior and insecure and just plain terrible I would never look at tumblr again.
> 
> Some people aren't ok with doing that for their spouse and that's why the porn issue needs to be openly and honestly discussed at the beginning. And for f**k's sake people (mostly men) QUIT LYING AND HIDING!! Just come out and say you enjoy unwinding with a beat off session to porn bc when she finds out later you may find yourself in a world of turmoil and eventually back on the dating circuit.


Amateurs having regular sex are the closest to emotional relationships, so his porn was meeting an emotional need. This very common. Many men are not interested in professional porn. Amateur looking professionals are a big genre.

This is an irony of porn. It fills holes that become bigger because of porn.

I would say that for some women a bigger problem is compulsive shopping.


----------



## DoF

Not sure if any of you read my post but as I was reading it I reminded myself about the issue that's present in our relationship (it's pretty clear).

Few months ago we did agree on "no porn" boundary. 

I just spoke with her on this subject.

Told her that although I have been very good on that end, I was not perfect and broke it once or twice past few months and apologized to her about it.

She accepted and was thankful for my honesty. Then she stated that it really hurts her very much and pretty much on par with what many women are saying here.

I think she wasn't very clear on that when we defined that boundary and it was more of a "insecurity" and I just didn't have the level of importance towards it as I do now. 

I told her that I completely understand and porn is no big deal, if it hurts her as much as she described I will have to do a better job and never slip.

Clearly there was little miscommunication/misunderstanding, but we are on the same page now.

I agreed with her and told her that I don't want to do anything that hurts her or her feelings so I have to stop completely.

For whatever that's worth.

Anyways, I do have to say that many people here opened my eyes up a bit and thank you for giving me their perspective! It went a long way to help me see things more clearly.


----------



## tacoma

ScarletBegonias said:


> I've seen that probably more times than the ones who are saying they want sex w/their husbands but the husbands are addicted to porn.
> 
> Although currently there are quite a few running threads about women married to men who enjoy porn but won't have sex with the wife often.



Yes and that's not acceptable.
That's a serious problem but it's a problem that won't be solved with those threatening ultimatums.

If porn use has gone so far as to cause a man to lose interest in real women he's just as far gone as a heroin junkie who has lost interest in real life.

You can't shame, intimidate, or threaten a heroin junkie off his junk.

It requires a greater commitment and a lot more pain in the process.


----------



## tacoma

LongWalk said:


> Amateurs having regular sex are the closest to emotional relationships, so his porn was meeting an emotional need.


Not necessarily.

I prefer amateur porn because of the degradation and horrible acting found in 99.9% of professional porn.

Two people "really" enjoying themselves is a much bigger turn on for me.


----------



## always_alone

turnera said:


> Sounds like this has more to do with other things than just porn?


Like what?

I find out he's a big liar who pretended to agree with certain views that are important to me, and since then has said outright that he's not giving up the 18-year-old porn girls.

So fine, he can have them.

But for me, that shut the door. And I'm not seeing any reason why I should open it again.


----------



## always_alone

tacoma said:


> You're going to have a much better chance helping him open up about it if you aren't continuing the cycle of threatening ultimatums.


Why do you assume threatening ultimatums? OP never mentioned any, and certainly I never issued any. 

He knows how I feel, but it's not like it was ever a secret. He just thought if he was sneaky enough he could have his cake and eat it too. 

If he wanted someone who feels differently, he should have dumped me 17 years ago.


----------



## Anon Pink

Haven't read the whole thread, porn threads are so annoying. But wanted to chime in with my opinion because everyone deserves to hear it.

Women who are threatened by their husbands porn viewing. OMG get over yourselves! He isn't seeking to date the chicks from porn, he doesn't want them to be his wife, he is just getting his rocks off! It has nothing to do with you! Do you never see a movie and think my oh my that man could certainly come fix my plumbing! Sheeshe! Of course you do! You're not dead, just married.

Men are visual creatures. Men have a sex drive that is very close to the surface because they are visual creatures and because they've never been slvt shamed. Their sexuality is out in the open while women tend to have to work to open up their sexuality.

So if you want to stop your husband from watching other people have sex, make your own porn flicks so he will only be watching you having sex with him.

Now... I gotta get off TAM!


----------



## ScarletBegonias

always_alone said:


> Why do you assume threatening ultimatums? OP never mentioned any, and certainly I never issued any.


I took Tacoma's comments as a general reference bc it is common practice for ladies to do this and not necessarily saying OP was doing this. Tacoma can you clear that up for us?


----------



## tacoma

always_alone said:


> Why do you assume threatening ultimatums? OP never mentioned any, and certainly I never issued any.
> 
> He knows how I feel, but it's not like it was ever a secret. He just thought if he was sneaky enough he could have his cake and eat it too.
> 
> If he wanted someone who feels differently, he should have dumped me 17 years ago.


I'm sorry, I'm a bit off topic.

I was responding to some of the statements concerning hiding porn.

The OP's situation seems untenable and isn't the focus of my reply.


----------



## always_alone

Anon Pink said:


> Women who are threatened by their husbands porn viewing. OMG get over yourselves! He isn't seeking to date the chicks from porn, he doesn't want them to be his wife, he is just getting his rocks off! It has nothing to do with you!


No, he just wants to channel his sexual energy into 18-year-old porn stars. Clearly it has nothing to do with me -- and that right there is the problem.

So, yes, I will "get over myself" knowing just how super valuable I am because I pay the bills and will take him to the hospital when he's sick.

How fan-****ing-tastic is that?


----------



## fix this

People can say all they want and justify porn use all they want, but my case is one of those when a man actually needs porn to be excited and interested in sex. He's not interested when his wife comes to him and initiates, he makes up excuses not to have sex. He blames his ED on meds, which is possible, but in my opinion is now just one of the reasons. Then when he comes clean about porn and goes back to watching it after having to take a break, his libido suddenly kickstarts and he's now way more into sex. Am I glad he wants sex with me? I guess I am because I'm a warm blooded woman and I have needs. But knowing if he didn't have access to porn his libido would flatline again and he would be acting like a dead fish, completely distracted and withdrawn during sex? That's not normal in my book. Oh, and he totally wears the pants. He gets his way most of the time, he's the dominant one. I don't mind it, I like my man to be dominant. But his inability to get excited without porn, his obvious boredom when he didn't get his fix, to me it's not normal. He likes to get excited with porn then have sex. After realizing that's not my idea of fun,(and still secretly watching porn before sex unless I watch him 24/7 to the point I can't even take a shower before the deed because as soon as I'm in the bathroom he will do it) he now watches porn without masturbating , because he saves it for me. I suppose things could be worse. He could be denying me sex. But the sex in itself is porn sex. With him being demanding and not giving a whole lot back, and when called out on it, becoming extremely offended and pissed off. 

I have tried it all. The truth is, he will never stop, if he himself doesn't see a problem with it which he doesn't. The only problem there is is me getting upset, which has helped him make progress. THE ONLY 2 things that helped is me being obviously depressed when he openly locks himself in a room with a computer, and me giving him an ultimatum. 

You say ultimatums are destructive? They're not gonna help him open up? Well what do you do when you notice him watch porn secretly, then tell him as calmly and friendly as possible he doesn't have to hide it and he can be open, and he actually goes off on you, denying the obvious, calls you crazy, completely gaslights, yells he didn't do anything even though you clearly saw him, shuts you off and gives silent treatment? I felt like ultimatum was the only solution at that point. And even then he was kicking and screaming and still denying everything, until I plain and calm said I didn't care what he said to me, I'm not stupid and I know what I saw. 

I know I don't have control over what he does with his time. I go out with a friend for a whole day, I know he's gonna spend the whole day with porn. There's simply nothing I can do until, and if ever, he realizes it's hurting him and us. And I refuse to waste any of my energy on worthless arguments and trying to prove my points, as well as pouring my heart out about how i feel on the subject, only for him to do it the next day. Instead I'm going to focus on me and what makes me happy. Unfortunately, a lot of what makes me happy now doesn't have as much to do with him as before. Sure, he still makes me happy in general (It actually feels like he's a different person when it comes to porn). But his behavior also brings misery in my life. And he knows that by now. Because he chooses to behave this way despite of the consequence and still lies about it, makes promises without the intention of keeping them (i asked him to at least promise he wouldn't do it before sex, he broke it the next time we had sex simply because he thought i wouldn't find out) even though he is making progress, he will not get me at my best. I used to love to please him and would do anything to keep him satisfied, now I no longer have that desire. He neglected my emotional needs and feelings, and I don't see why I should fulfill his. It's a 2 way street.


----------



## Caribbean Man

always_alone said:


> Why do you assume threatening ultimatums? OP never mentioned any, and certainly I never issued any.
> 
> He knows how I feel, but it's not like it was ever a secret. He just thought if he was sneaky enough he could have his cake and eat it too.
> 
> If he wanted someone who feels differently, he should have dumped me 17 years ago.



AA,

Lets get serious here.

I'm going to ask you the same question I asked you almost a year ago.

why aren't you dumping this man?

I think you can do much better than him.

1] You make much more money than him.
2] He has his porn problem and refuses to attend to your emotional / sexual needs.
3] He continuously lies to you about it .
4] Recently you said that things were good, now your'e saying he pulled the wool over your eyes, yet again.
5]He doesn't respect your values.
6]He doesn't respect you

What else is there to add?

Is that a relationship worth saving?
Does the * good things* about him outweigh the bad?

Seventeen years is quite a long time to remain in an un fulfilling and borderline abusive relationship.

"_ Time can bring you down,
Time can bend your knees.
Time can break your heart,
Have you begging please, begging please.._."

_Tears In Heaven_ ~ Eric Clapton.

Seventeen years _is _a long time.
Sometimes we get addicted to pain.
You can do better than this.


----------



## Anon Pink

always_alone said:


> No, he just wants to channel his sexual energy into 18-year-old porn stars. Clearly it has nothing to do with me -- and that right there is the problem.
> 
> So, yes, I will "get over myself" knowing just how super valuable I am because I pay the bills and will take him to the hospital when he's sick.
> 
> How fan-****ing-tastic is that?


Always, I'm sorry if I've angered you. I don't know if your guy is over using porn and turning away from you or not, but looking at 18 year olds... I'm 51 and my H is 55 so there is no way to look at porn unless he is looking at MUCH younger women. Aside from that, in all my fantasies I'm 25. Don't really wanna see people my age having sex. Maybe that's why it's easier for me. Everyone is younger and hotter. No big deal.


----------



## turnera

fix this and AA, your cases are obviously extreme and ANY extreme situation engenders a more extreme solution. But the truth is, there are millions of people out there, all over the world, who can take it or leave it but sometimes take it and enjoy it, and it doesn't affect their life or their marriage. Just like with anything.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

FizzBomb said:


> Agreed. Comparing books to porn is ludicrous and people know it.
> 
> I read smutty books, look on literotica and watch porn - but I don't lie, sneak, delete history and deny my spouse sex over it.


are you saying porn and literotica aren't comparable? one fetures pictures and videos, the other describes the same scene with words.....


----------



## always_alone

Caribbean Man said:


> AA,
> 
> Lets get serious here.
> 
> I'm going to ask you the same question I asked you almost a year ago.
> 
> why aren't you dumping this man?
> 
> I think you can do much better than him.


It wasn't like this for 17 years. Only about 2-3 of them. And he doesn't abuse me, just happens to think porn is hotter.

Fact is, I probably can't do better. If I've learned anything at TAM it's that I have zero SMV and am pretty much everything that men hate.

And while I'm pretty good at being on my own, now that I'm growing older, the thought that there is someone here who can scrape me off the floor when I have my aneurysm is somewhat comforting.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

ConanHub said:


> Porn addicts are far more prone to attempt direct attacks against women and children because of objectification.
> 
> Too tired to give you references tonight, but will get you some interesting info soon.
> 
> Your references to drug and alcohol abuse are accurate but the affects of porn are different, but there nonetheless.
> 
> I can definitely speak from my own experiences. I never attacked anyone myself, but I certainly objectified women for quite some time and treated them as simply objects to satisfy me sexually.
> 
> I had open contempt for a woman as a person, worthy of respect.
> 
> I was apparently very attractive to women witch allowed me to take terrible advantage of many of them.


Conan: your first line. are you sure it isn't the other way around? that sexual predators are more likely to be porn addicts than non-predators are......


----------



## tacoma

nuclearnightmare said:


> Conan: your first line. are you sure it isn't the other way around? that sexual predators are more likely to be porn addicts than non-predators are......


Yes, and any "study" that says differently has an agenda to meet.

It's akin to saying that listening to heavy metal will drive you to crime and drug use or that video games lead kids to become serial killers.

A person who has these inclinations will be drawn to this media.

A person without these inclinations won't become inclined to this behavior through the use of this media.

Correlation/Causation mixed up.

Perhaps we could play Linda Lovelaces orgasms backwards and see if there's anything to worry about there


----------



## SongoftheSouth

fix this said:


> I expected a relationship to be a fairytale filled with unicorns and rainbows and the two people only wanting each other. And to my disappointment and horror I realized when you do get into a relationship, as a woman, you commit yourself to a man, only to have him check out other women and jerk off to 18 year olds who are hotter than you for the rest of your lives together, and eventually underappreciate and take your beauty for granted. The initial spark simply fades. *And to some extent I believe that happens to the majority. People will say boohoo, boys will be boys, that I need to stop being a *****/dramatic/controlling and let it go and accept it. That it's not a big deal, that it's normal and a typical male behavior, it's biology*..


Thats nuts. That is not typical male behaviour. Of course all guys will look at porn every now and then and get aroused but if someone is doing it all the time they are seriously damaged. Your man is addicted to something that is not healthy, thats on him, not you and is certainly no representation of the entire male population.


----------



## always_alone

turnera said:


> But the truth is, there are millions of people out there, all over the world, who can take it or leave it but sometimes take it and enjoy it, and it doesn't affect their life or their marriage.


And it's really important that we continually reassure these millions of people by constantly reminding any disgruntled minorities that they are there and they are happy? Why? 

Is poor porn under such an unfair onslaught that it's in danger of becoming extinct?


----------



## soccermom2three

always_alone said:


> And it's really important that we continually reassure these millions of people by constantly reminding any disgruntled minorities that they are there and they are happy? Why?
> 
> Is poor porn under such an unfair onslaught that it's in danger of becoming extinct?


I'm wondering if other addictions like alcohol, gambling, cigarettes, etc., got the same defense back in the day.

"There's no such thing." 
"It's just an escape from reality". 
"There's no physical changes to the brain/body."


----------



## AliceA

Bottom line for me is, if my DH asked me to give up drinking water, I wouldn't do it, it would be detrimental to my health and wellbeing; if he asked me to give up reading or contributing to this forum because he felt it was detrimental to our relationship (an example, since I don't watch porn anyway), sure, I'd do it. If I turned around and said, "no, I think you're insecure and I'm not going to pander to you", well, it'd probably be somewhat of a crappy reaction to his request don't you think? Also, what's so important about this activity that I require it anyway? Giving up an activity your spouse finds abhorrent or detrimental to the health of your marriage seems like a fair enough request to me.

Edited to add: check out 'make love not porn' for a different approach to internet porn. Also, I don't think internet porn is ever going to go away. Just look at all the support groups popping up for the addicted to get off it, lol.


----------



## Mr The Other

AlwaysAlone,
I do not know you well, so please, excuse me. The impression I have is that you are blaming porn for your husband acting like selfish child when the problem actually is that your husband is a selfish child and porn is not the cause of that.
However, I have no real understanding and I apologise if I am being condescending.


----------



## Blonde

fix this said:


> I suppose things could be worse. He could be denying me sex. But the sex in itself is porn sex. With him being demanding and not giving a whole lot back, and when called out on it, becoming extremely offended and pissed off. ...
> 
> I have tried it all. The truth is, he will never stop, if he himself doesn't see a problem with it which he doesn't. The only problem there is is me getting upset, which has helped him make progress. THE ONLY 2 things that helped is me being obviously depressed when he openly locks himself in a room with a computer, and me giving him an ultimatum.
> 
> You say ultimatums are destructive? They're not gonna help him open up? Well what do you do when you notice him watch porn secretly, then tell him as calmly and friendly as possible he doesn't have to hide it and he can be open, and he actually goes off on you, denying the obvious, calls you crazy, completely gaslights, yells he didn't do anything even though you clearly saw him, shuts you off and gives silent treatment? I felt like ultimatum was the only solution at that point. And even then he was kicking and screaming and still denying everything, until I plain and calm said I didn't care what he said to me, I'm not stupid and I know what I saw.


I'm so sorry you are hurting ft. Do you have children with this man? If I was in your shoes, I would give an ultimatum: Porn or Me.

My H was abusive when he was a porn user. Hair trigger temper, demeaning and contemptuous attitude toward women and girls (and we have 5 daughters). He professes to be a Christian so he stopped the porn on his own. But I did give him an ultimatum over his drinking and he chose the marriage over the drinking.

Get yourself therapy and work on growing a backbone.


----------



## always_alone

Mr The Other said:


> AlwaysAlone,
> I do not know you well, so please, excuse me. The impression I have is that you are blaming porn for your husband acting like selfish child when the problem actually is that your husband is a selfish child and porn is not the cause of that.
> However, I have no real understanding and I apologise if I am being condescending.


Selfish child? He is just expressing his preferences and his natural sexuality --he's a man, after all, and so visual and wanting them young and fertile. And putting his foot down as to what makes him happy, just as any good alpha man must do.

I'm sure many here would applaud him. I'm the one who needs to get over myself for thinking that my singular sexuality would be remotely enough to hold his interest. I'd say that I got my stupid ideas about relationships from romance novels -- except that I don't read them.

Sorry, fix this, I didn't mean to make this thread about me. Just wanted to say I hear you and sympathize.


----------



## turnera

always_alone said:


> And it's really important that we continually reassure these millions of people by constantly reminding any disgruntled minorities that they are there and they are happy? Why?
> 
> Is poor porn under such an unfair onslaught that it's in danger of becoming extinct?


What are you talking about? Who is reassuring anyone? The only people I see taking umbrage are people trying to get rid of something they don't like.

And, AS I SAID, cases like yours are extreme cases that require extreme action. Like refusing to remain married if your husband can't leave it alone.


----------



## Caribbean Man

always_alone said:


> Selfish child? He is just expressing his preferences and his natural sexuality --he's a man, after all, and so visual and wanting them young and fertile. And putting his foot down as to what makes him happy, just as any good alpha man must do.
> 
> I'm sure many here would applaud him. I'm the one who needs to get over myself for thinking that my singular sexuality would be remotely enough to hold his interest. I'd say that I got my stupid ideas about relationships from romance novels -- except that I don't read them.
> 
> Sorry, fix this, I didn't mean to make this thread about me. Just wanted to say I hear you and sympathize.


Social constructs aside,

What is always_alone going to do about _this_ situation?
You're in a sexless relationship, and been like that for quite a long time.
What do you want to do?
It's not like you're married to him, so there's no messy divorce proceedings.
You're not financially dependent on him.
Are you willing to take the ultimate stand for everything you profess and believe?

Because that's what it all comes down to.


----------



## turnera

soccermom2three said:


> I'm wondering if other addictions like alcohol, gambling, cigarettes, etc., got the same defense back in the day.
> 
> "There's no such thing."
> "It's just an escape from reality".
> "There's no physical changes to the brain/body."


You are talking about ADDICTIONS. And ANY addiction is dangerous. You can be addicted to locking your car three times before you walk away. You can be addicted to eating dirt. You can be addicted to setting fires.

Should we ban matches?

Let's try to separate extreme cases from people who can - and do - use something safely.


----------



## turnera

always_alone said:


> Selfish child? He is just expressing his preferences and his natural sexuality --he's a man, after all, and so visual and wanting them young and fertile. And putting his foot down as to what makes him happy, just as any good alpha man must do.


You're clearly bitter, with good reason. But yes, selfish child. He is with you yet he doesn't put you first. Therefore, it will have to be you doing something about what you're willing to accept. Boundaries and consequences are what people in bad situations have to turn to. Will he give it up if he's told he will lose you? Who knows? But I see no other option at this point.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

This is an incredibly interesting thread.
I actually watch porn but I also see the damage it can do.

My main issue is that a lot of young people are learning everything they know about sex from internet porn. 5 minute clips of women getting no pleasure, no foreplay, no romance. They are often physically harmed or disrespected and still fake Os. There have been issues already with young people thinking this is how sex should work, that all girls should do (and like!) all the positions, anal sex, and everything else they see in the video or that they should just start sex and have the girl moaning.

Sure a lot of people can separate the 2 but for some, this is the only sex ed they are getting. People don't talk to youths and young adults about how to have good sex. I also know that most people can separate how a woman will look vs how they look in porn but you can't say that at least some of it has changed how some view our bodies. Now we're getting Brazilian waxes, women are getting labiaplastys, boob jobs, etc. 

I don't get the link with romance novels, you may see a fantasy but we also get examples of how a real relationship works. You see your parents and relatives and friend's parents. Both genders in a story are getting something out of the deal, they are both in love. The man isn't degraded or harmed or treated like they don't matter. Men aren't as likely to rush out to get surgery to look more like someone in a book. Not to mention- no real human is being subjected to whatever the director wants them to do. I haven't read any of them since my teens but most follow the same basic plot. I just don't see the same damage.


----------



## soccermom2three

turnera said:


> You are talking about ADDICTIONS. And ANY addiction is dangerous. You can be addicted to locking your car three times before you walk away. You can be addicted to eating dirt. You can be addicted to setting fires.
> 
> Should we ban matches?
> 
> Let's try to separate extreme cases from people who can - and do - use something safely.



If you read the OP and AA that's what we are talking about here. Extreme cases.


----------



## jaharthur

soccermom2three said:


> If you read the OP and AA that's what we are talking about here. Extreme cases.


So who are the posters defending a porn *addiction*? Who is defending the OP's spouse?

Alcohol, gambling, AND porn can be used in moderation and not be harmful. I'm not sure cigarettes are the same.

Alcohol, gambling AND porn as addictions are bad. Again, who is defending the addiction? And as CM has noted, alcohol is the worst of any of these, by far. So I hope nobody's having a glass of wine with dinner.


----------



## turnera

soccermom2three said:


> If you read the OP and AA that's what we are talking about here. Extreme cases.


And, as you want, people are agreeing that extreme cases should be dealt with. It's an open thread and thus, people are allowed to present other thoughts and opinions. If you wanted a place where you could just sit and rant all day about what porn has done to you, you should start a blog somewhere. This is an open forum.


----------



## always_alone

turnera said:


> But yes, selfish child. He is with you yet he doesn't put you first. Therefore, it will have to be you doing something about what you're willing to accept. Boundaries and consequences are what people in bad situations have to turn to.


I no longer believe that relationships are about being "put first" or "putting another first"

I believe they are just a series of compromises that you both keep making as long as you feel it's worth your while. 

I did blow things up and put my foot down on certain matters, and compromises have been made on his end as well. 

For now sticking with my current set of compromises strikes me as somewhat more preferable than the ones I'd have to make to end the relationship.


----------



## turnera

As it ever is, right? I like the way Harley describes it, with the talk about the love bank (I call it a bucket). If it stays full enough from the meeting of the ENs (filling the bucket) and there aren't so many holes poked in the bucket from the LBs that all the love flows out of the holes so that you're stuck with an empty love bucket, then there's reason to stay. If the bucket stays empty because the LBs are so frequent or so bad, then it's probably not logical, for anyone, to stay.


----------



## AliceA

I think the video linked a fair ways back in this thread would be a good one to show a spouse you believe was addicted to internet porn.

Just remember the difference here people between internet porn and the rest of it (magazines, books etc). It is simply not the same thing.

You can see the difference in the effects of 'one click' satisfaction, online streaming sort of stuff in other areas such as online gaming. People who may have here and there played a game for an entire week then grew bored of it and didn't play one for months can easily turn into someone who will find an online game, such as WoW/Rift/Battlefield etc and suddenly they have a relationship threatening gaming addiction. 

Yes we can all blame the addict; it's easy to say, 'you weak willed pathetic piece of crap. Anyone worth their salt wouldn't become addicted', but it's actually more complicated than that imo. I think that when so many fall into the trap of addiction with something, whether we're talking internet porn, online gaming, alcohol, drugs, smoking etc, it's the product we're becoming addicted to that needs to be addressed because it's obvious that for many problem will not go away unless the supply chain is interrupted.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

jaharthur said:


> So who are the posters defending a porn *addiction*? Who is defending the OP's spouse?
> 
> Alcohol, gambling, AND porn can be used in moderation and not be harmful. I'm not sure cigarettes are the same.
> 
> Alcohol, gambling AND porn as addictions are bad. Again, who is defending the addiction? And as CM has noted, alcohol is the worst of any of these, by far. So I hope nobody's having a glass of wine with dinner.


Completely different, most porn is available 24/7 in an endless stream. 

If my partner didn't like alcohol for whatever reasons, and he told me at the start, I don't want to be with someone who drinks, then it would be up to me to decide if I want to be with him or not. 

Very different to the usage of porn, because even if a man doesn't have what people would class as a problem, say he uses it once or twice a week, I personally believe it changes the way he views sex, it changes what arouses people, and creates unrealistic expectations. In fact many a men have posted on here that they wish their wives could be like porn stars. 

Also I promised to be faithful to my spouse, to my mind that means our sex life is between us, it doesn't involve using other people to get off. 

Imagine if I felt my emotional needs weren't being met , so I had them met by another man? 

When people have sex it bonds them to each other, same as when they do something nice for each other, and especially when they orgasm, it releases good endorphins and oxytocin which bonds people helps them stay in love. However every time we orgasm to images or movies of other people it weakens that bond. 

I personally want to strengthen that bond as much as possible.


----------



## Starstarfish

*LittleDeer* said:


> Completely different, most porn is available 24/7 in an endless stream.
> 
> If my partner didn't like alcohol for whatever reasons, and he told me at the start, I don't want to be with someone who drinks, then it would be up to me to decide if I want to be with him or not.
> 
> Very different to the usage of porn, because even if a man doesn't have what people would class as a problem, say he uses it once or twice a week, I personally believe it changes the way he views sex, it changes what arouses people, and creates unrealistic expectations. In fact many a men have posted on here that they wish their wives could be like porn stars.
> 
> Also I promised to be faithful to my spouse, to my mind that means our sex life is between us, it doesn't involve using other people to get off.
> 
> Imagine if I felt my emotional needs weren't being met , so I had them met by another man?
> 
> When people have sex it bonds them to each other, same as when they do something nice for each other, and especially when they orgasm, it releases good endorphins and oxytocin which bonds people helps them stay in love. However every time we orgasm to images or movies of other people it weakens that bond.
> 
> I personally want to strengthen that bond as much as possible.


When you get your emotional needs met by another man, that's an emotional affair, and some will suggest divorce because of it. When you are getting your sexual needs met elsewhere it's "just porn" it's "natural male behavior" and it's free time. 

When wives won't or don't want to have sex it's unfairly punishing their spouse. But it's been suggested in this thread if porn use leads to ED, the ED is only his problem. Male sexual problems or disinterest don't affect women, apparently.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PieceOfSky

tacoma said:


> While this is right and there should be no lying and hiding you need to understand that usually the reasons for it aren't nefarious or even rational.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most men have spent their entire lives being shamed, humiliated, threatened, and punished for what is essentially their natural sexuality ever since they discovered masturbation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The lying and hiding is a pretty natural response that has been indoctrinated into them since puberty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They have to actually learn to be open with it and that's not likely if they're getting the same shaming and anger from their wives that they've been getting from their mother, preacher, and every girl they were ever with for their entire lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just sayin'.







Amen.



Even at 47, having fathered two children, and living what qualifies around here as a sexless marriage, it is a relief to hear grownups here talk guiltlessly about their own masturbation habits.



And one doesn't even need to bring porn into the process, to feel shame and others' contempt. The mind is quite capable of producing "lustful thoughts", ones that can have damaging consequences -- not because they are inherently bad, but because of the shaming and contempt one perceives from the surrounding culture, family, peers, etc.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Whenever a poster attempts to summarize or restate what he it she thinks "most here on this thread" or "most here on TAM" or "most everywhere" have said or done, or is "certainly going to do or say", I end up spending so much energy trying to assess "is that accurate?" or is that person "really" meaning to accuse "most of those". I get lost, and the issues worth discussing gets lost in the attempts to sort out projections from biases from statistics from damn lies and even malicious attempts to get people flustered.



Which is regrettable, because usually the poster has something I'd like to hear and understand, and that is difficult when all these other allegations about "most others" are brought into the discussion.



YMMV.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

PieceOfSky said:


> Amen.
> 
> 
> 
> Even at 47, having fathered two children, and living what qualifies around here as a sexless marriage, it is a relief to hear grownups here talk guiltlessly about their own masturbation habits.
> 
> 
> 
> And one doesn't even need to bring porn into the process, to feel shame and others' contempt. The mind is quite capable of producing "lustful thoughts", ones that can have damaging consequences -- not because they are inherently bad, but because of the shaming and contempt one perceives from the surrounding culture, family, peers, etc.


Well masturbation is natural and normal, and I whilst I am against porn for so many reasons, does not mean I am a prude against sex or masturbation. 

I happen to have quite a high sex drive, and when not having sex masturbate daily myself. However no is harmed, commodified, sex trafficked or treated like crap in order for me to do it. So I have a clear conscience.


----------



## fix this

Viewing porn out of context 'makes women feel sick' - Science - News - The Independent

found this article today, lol. sums up about right how i feel about most porn out there, at least the typical male oriented stuff. it makes me nauseated.


----------



## lucyloo

I have plenty of problems in my own marriage, but this - sex, masturbation, porn or otherwise has never been an issue. 

It doesn't seem like my opinion will help anything but just wanted to provide an alternate perspective. 

To be brutally honest, the way that you think and feel about yourself is quite alarming. To feel "lesser than" because of porn really highlights your own insecurities. My husband watches porn a few times a month. I couldn't be bothered by it. Why? Because it's fake. The women are fake, it's a fantasy that'll never happen, they don't actually enjoy the acts they're participating in, and those 18 year olds ? They're probably there because someone gives them their next drug to snort or shoot up. 

I don't think you should be looking to your husband to change - you should really be considering why it is you feel so inadequate. There is nothing your husband could do even if he never watched porn or masturbated again. You would be jealous if he looked at someone else. 

As for people bringing up women "tolerating" this kind of behaviour - if he is in fact only watching porn on a casual basis, there is literally nothing wrong with that. Masturbation is perfectly acceptable and is even encouraged to learn more about your body and what makes it tick. 

The concerning issue for me here is your self image and how incredibly threatened you feel by other women. I would work on that before blaming your husband and the fact that he is human and is masturbating rather than cheating!


----------



## fix this

lucyloo said:


> I have plenty of problems in my own marriage, but this - sex, masturbation, porn or otherwise has never been an issue.
> 
> It doesn't seem like my opinion will help anything but just wanted to provide an alternate perspective.
> 
> To be brutally honest, the way that you think and feel about yourself is quite alarming. To feel "lesser than" because of porn really highlights your own insecurities. My husband watches porn a few times a month. I couldn't be bothered by it. Why? Because it's fake. The women are fake, it's a fantasy that'll never happen, they don't actually enjoy the acts they're participating in, and those 18 year olds ? They're probably there because someone gives them their next drug to snort or shoot up.
> 
> I don't think you should be looking to your husband to change - you should really be considering why it is you feel so inadequate. There is nothing your husband could do even if he never watched porn or masturbated again. You would be jealous if he looked at someone else.
> 
> As for people bringing up women "tolerating" this kind of behaviour - if he is in fact only watching porn on a casual basis, there is literally nothing wrong with that. Masturbation is perfectly acceptable and is even encouraged to learn more about your body and what makes it tick.
> 
> The concerning issue for me here is your self image and how incredibly threatened you feel by other women. I would work on that before blaming your husband and the fact that he is human and is masturbating rather than cheating!


I agree, I do have self-esteem issues. The fact that he watches porn compulsively, doesnt seem interested in sex without using porn as his personal form of foreplay, and the fact that he doesn't spend a whole lot of time taking care of my needs during sex, while demanding quite a bit for himself, makes the issues worse. I'm not sure what I can do on my end, though. I can't afford a therapist and the self help books and general advice just don't do it for me. Maybe I'm just wired this way.


----------



## lucyloo

fix this said:


> I agree, I do have self-esteem issues. The fact that he watches porn compulsively, doesnt seem interested in sex without using porn as his personal form of foreplay, and the fact that he doesn't spend a whole lot of time taking care of my needs during sex, while demanding quite a bit for himself, makes the issues worse. I'm not sure what I can do on my end, though. I can't afford a therapist and the self help books and general advice just don't do it for me. Maybe I'm just wired this way.


Have you tried asking for specific things during sex from him? 

As for your self esteem issues, do you have any hobbies you enjoy? Activities or things you enjoy personally that you can do outside of your marriage? Exercise, joining a club, reading, learning to play an instrument, learning a language...anything to boost your self confidence I'm sure you would be a massive help.

Also, it seems as though this is causing you a lot of anxiety. I would highly recommend meditation (even 5 minutes a day makes a massive difference) as well as journalling. 

Instead of looking to your husband and waiting for him to change - take a page out of his book and do what makes YOU happy. The longer you wait around for him to change, the longer he'll know his behaviour is acceptable because you tolerate it. 

As for not being pleasured during sex, what about pleasuring yourself? Using toys, or masturbating on your own?

I don't know if any of this will help you, but remember the only person you can control and can change is yourself.


----------



## turnera

fix this said:


> I agree, I do have self-esteem issues. The fact that he watches porn compulsively, doesnt seem interested in sex without using porn as his personal form of foreplay, and the fact that he doesn't spend a whole lot of time taking care of my needs during sex, while demanding quite a bit for himself, makes the issues worse. I'm not sure what I can do on my end, though. I can't afford a therapist and the self help books and general advice just don't do it for me. Maybe I'm just wired this way.


First, try this book. It can really help you with your low self esteem.

Second, if he's not taking care of you, the solution is simple: "Sorry, darling, but my needs matter too. If you can't be bothered to give ME an orgasm first, we aren't doing this."


----------



## Wolf1974

*LittleDeer* said:


> Well masturbation is natural and normal, and I whilst I am against porn for so many reasons, does not mean I am a prude against sex or masturbation.
> 
> I happen to have quite a high sex drive, and when not having *sex masturbate daily myself.* However no is harmed, commodified, sex trafficked or treated like crap in order for me to do it. So I have a clear conscience.


Well that's interesting so what kinda visual stimuli do you use when masterbating then?


----------



## lancaster

I admit I only read the first page or so, but a couple of things. Firstly I do not believe in soul mates. I think the concept is a fantasy that many people have. Secondly there are a lot of men out there who do not use porn in their marriage or serious relationships. I have had no interest in porn since being married, although I admit my sex drive is not what it once was. I also no of several other men who are married and who are not interested in pornography. 

Op if your husband is serious interested in giving up porn there are a host of organizations, religious and secular than can help him do so. Google SLAA or SAA for example.


----------



## PieceOfSky

*LittleDeer* said:


> Well masturbation is natural and normal, and I whilst I am against porn for so many reasons, does not mean I am a prude against sex or masturbation.
> 
> I happen to have quite a high sex drive, and when not having sex masturbate daily myself. *However no is harmed, commodified, sex trafficked or treated like crap in order for me to do it. So I have a clear conscience.*


Good for you.

In case there is someone listening that doesn't realize this, I'd like to add:

It is possible to masturbate and feel guilt and shame about it, even though no one was harmed, commodified, sex trafficked, or treated like crap.

That's an awful place to be, especially when one is too young to have learned much about normal human development and experience.

How people end up in that awful place, well, there are many ways. But, in my case, I think the attitudes from the culture and people surrounding me growing up had something to do with it.


----------



## PieceOfSky

fix this said:


> I agree, I do have self-esteem issues. The fact that he watches porn compulsively, doesnt seem interested in sex without using porn as his personal form of foreplay, and the fact that he doesn't spend a whole lot of time taking care of my needs during sex, while demanding quite a bit for himself, makes the issues worse. I'm not sure what I can do on my end, though. I can't afford a therapist and the self help books and general advice just don't do it for me. *Maybe I'm just wired this way.*


Maybe you are wired that way, but, I hasten to add, there's nothing WRONG with your wiring.

Many of us would feel bad being treated the way you are being treated.

Many of us would suffer further and further erosion of self-esteem as such treatment continues.

His behavior is not "typical". 

His behavior is hurtful, inconsiderate towards you.

If you are hurting over it, it is completely "normal" and expected, and I hope you feel comfortably that you have "right" to feel how you do. You feel like you feel, and it makes sense to many of us that you do!



I don't know what the answer is for you, but suffering through it alone isn't going to work. I wish you could afford therapy, as I have found it a solid base from which to find coping skills and seek change. Baring that, though, perhaps there is some sort of on-line focused support group for people in similar situations. (That would be quite a bit different from an open thread here on TAM, where 99% of the energy is spent debating various "claims", and too little time spent facilitating healing.)

TAM does have a SocialGroup feature (under the Community menu, I think). There may be a SocialGroup for folks in your situation already. If not, you could start one. The advantage is one can control who can become a member, who can read and create the posts. It can give you a less distracting environment from which to have helpful discussions with people you trust.


----------



## Happyfamily

fix this said:


> I expected a relationship to be a fairytale filled with unicorns and rainbows.


I don't understand. Your mother was abused. You saw it with your own eyes. Spousal abuse, alcoholism, drug abuse, affairs, disabling accidents - we're bombarded with this every day. Not a day goes by in the USA without one spouse killing the other somewhere. Check out Investigative Discovery channel. Murder every day. 

It's well enough known that the divorce rate is 50-50 in the USA so I just don't see where fairytale/unicorn/rainbows expectation arises. Especially when you see a lifetime of abuse in your own home. Seems to me that this kind of childhood ought to instill supreme caution in choosing a man. But ironically we see just the opposite - with women choosing abusers because that is what they are familiar with from childhood.

... and don't get me wrong. This guy (hubby) just about blew it and I go through periods when I am pretty down. But I don't expect a fairy tale.


----------



## turnera

Wolf1974 said:


> Well that's interesting so what kinda visual stimuli do you use when masterbating then?


Huh? What's this visual stimuli of which you speak? Oh, must be a guy thing. lol


----------



## AliceA

Wolf1974 said:


> Well that's interesting so what kinda visual stimuli do you use when masterbating then?


Imagination


----------



## Wolf1974

turnera said:


> Huh? What's this visual stimuli of which you speak? Oh, must be a guy thing. lol


It is. And that's my point. Most men, won't say all, need some sort of visual stimulation. Just built that way. So porn for self satisfaction is not only normal but for many a requirement to get to finish. That or the spank bank is what your left with.

Even with real sex I need to be able to see my partner so love having some mood lighting such as candles or whatever.

Would seem that some want guys to apologize for being this way which is normal. Ridiculous


----------



## TopsyTurvy5

To the OP, would you be okay if your husband filmed you two in various sex acts and then masturbated to those movies? 

Just trying to think of an alternative to help both of you.


----------



## sparkyjim

Wolf1974 said:


> So porn for self satisfaction is not only normal but for many a requirement to get to finish.



If this is true then how the *h e double toothpicks* did we ever get out of the 1st century B.C. ?

The concept that porn is normal, necessary or needed is laughable at best and ignorant at worst.



Wolf1974 said:


> Even with real sex I need to be able to see my partner so love having some mood lighting such as candles or whatever.
> 
> Would seem that some want guys to apologize for being this way which is normal. Ridiculous


However I totally agree with you on this and I would never apologize for being a visual man.

But let me put it to you another way. I also have taste buds, but I don't go around eating everything that is out there. I have a sense of discernment what foods are good for me and I make good choices.

It seems that men use this "I'm visual" as an excuse to be lecherous, and that is just a load of C**p. Meanwhile your partner is feeling less than attractive and then we get real "sensitive" and roll out the "well you are struggling with your self esteem..."

Yeah duh, because the man she just had sex with won't keep his eyes in his head.

There comes a point where I say that men have to lead in the relationship, and the best way to lead is to be someone who knows where they are going , and to be worthy of being followed.

And you can't keep your eyes on the goal if your head is swiveling at every piece of a** that walks by.

My wife knows that I am very sexual. She also knows that I hold that in check and that I only want to express my sexuality with her. She understands that I chose her to be my mate, in every way, and that I only want to see her and be with her. She can't possibly ever be boring to me because she is all I need sexually, because I chose to put her in that position.

So, I am visual, and I have testosterone coursing through my veins, and I want to have as much sex as I can, but none of those reasons are excuses for being less than the best husband I can be for my wife.

I think it is past time for men to start understanding what it truly means to be a man.


----------



## TopsyTurvy5

sparkyjim said:


> If this is true then how the *h e double toothpicks* did we ever get out of the 1st century B.C. ?
> 
> The concept that porn is normal, necessary or needed is laughable at best and ignorant at worst.
> 
> 
> 
> However I totally agree with you on this and I would never apologize for being a visual man.
> 
> But let me put it to you another way. I also have taste buds, but I don't go around eating everything that is out there. I have a sense of discernment what foods are good for me and I make good choices.
> 
> It seems that men use this "I'm visual" as an excuse to be lecherous, and that is just a load of C**p. Meanwhile your partner is feeling less than attractive and then we get real "sensitive" and roll out the "well you are struggling with your self esteem..."
> 
> Yeah duh, because the man she just had sex with won't keep his eyes in his head.
> 
> There comes a point where I say that men have to lead in the relationship, and the best way to lead is to be someone who knows where they are going , and to be worthy of being followed.
> 
> And you can't keep your eyes on the goal if your head is swiveling at every piece of a** that walks by.
> 
> My wife knows that I am very sexual. She also knows that I hold that in check and that I only want to express my sexuality with her. She understands that I chose her to be my mate, in every way, and that I only want to see her and be with her. She can't possibly ever be boring to me because she is all I need sexually, because I chose to put her in that position.
> 
> So, I am visual, and I have testosterone coursing through my veins, and I want to have as much sex as I can, but none of those reasons are excuses for being less than the best husband I can be for my wife.
> 
> I think it is past time for men to start understanding what it truly means to be a man.


There was porn in the 1st century, just look at some of the explicit art. It was definitely there.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> There was porn in the 1st century, just look at some of the explicit art. It was definitely there.


Yes in ancient civilisations, every night before a man went to sleep if he chose- he pressed a rock and people ran passed with thousands of carvings/ vases/ rock paintings and statues of naked people. They would then select a scene, and the potters/painters/ carvers would get to work and at lightening speed and churn out some hard core porn (some depicting horses  and bondage and group sex, and or whatever he chose, and he would whack off to it. 

Then he would sneak into bed, and in many marriages, she would be furiously angry and make him sleep on stone steps outside, because he once again rejected her for sex. 

Or maybe not. 

Naked depictions of people, having sex or whatever else are not the same as today's porn and cannot be compared in the slightest.


----------



## Placeboni

Unfortunately, the alternative to a man who watches porn is a man who watches porn and lies about it. Then gets caught out and swears he won't again. Then does again, and claims he has no imagination, so you make some porn together, and then he watches other porn anyway because of 'camera angles' :scratchhead:. Then you walk away because he'll never change. But he cries and begs and swears he's changed and can't live without you, and you love him so you take him back anyway. And now eight months later there's zero trust, zero respect and you're filled with resentment because he's a liar with no self control.

Or, yknow, maybe not


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Placeboni said:


> Unfortunately, the alternative to a man who watches porn is a man who watches porn and lies about it. Then gets caught out and swears he won't again. Then does again, and claims he has no imagination, so you make some porn together, and then he watches other porn anyway because of 'camera angles' :scratchhead:. Then you walk away because he'll never change. But he cries and begs and swears he's changed and can't live without you, and you love him so you take him back anyway. And now eight months later there's zero trust, zero respect and you're filled with resentment because he's a liar with no self control.
> 
> Or, yknow, maybe not


My partner doesn't watch it, doesn't lie about it. I've never begged him and there's no swearing he's changed. 

We are very open about sex, sexual preferences, fetishes and so on. 

Actually what attracted me to him enough to want a long term relationship is his treatment if women outside the bedroom - very respectful. And our mutual kinks and desires inside the bedroom.


----------



## Placeboni

*LittleDeer* said:


> My partner doesn't watch it, doesn't lie about it. I've never begged him and there's no swearing he's changed.
> 
> We are very open about sex, sexual preferences, fetishes and so on.
> 
> Actually what attracted me to him enough to want a long term relationship is his treatment if women outside the bedroom - very respectful. And our mutual kinks and desires inside the bedroom.


I thought we were very open about all that as well. It just turned out he was omitting certain things.
Reading things online sometimes just makes me want to throw it all in and think 'they're all the same'. Because honestly, I don't think I could deal with the dissapointment all over again.. thinking someone is different, respectful, honest, and then discovering it's all lies.
But, yeah, despite that, I still believe there are some decent men out there.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> There was porn in the 1st century, just look at some of the explicit art. It was definitely there.


Porn and all it's issues has changed so much since it's been available to everyone with internet.

Looking at some explicit art is much different than having access to billions of porn clips 24/7. Even having a stack of playboys under your bed is a much different situation. 

How many girls in these cave drawings do you think were having anal sex, having someone(s) finish on their face, being in pretend rape scenarios, gangbangs?
Enjoying a picture of a female body is not the same as enjoying today's porn clips.
Our bodies get accustomed to what we've trained them to do to orgasm. So when you have a young man who spent years watching porn go to a regular woman there will be a huge change. Porn is very, very different from real sex and how many young men these days do you think have regular sex _before _they ever see porn? 

Porn has escalated to an extreme. Literally anything you can think of will be there. I can't compete in a world where women are getting fists (plural!) anally and being treated like a blow up doll only made for a man's entertainment and everyone can watch at any time. 

I also think it perpetuates the idea that sex is a man thing. Women have sex for the man. Then people wonder why some women don't want sex as much.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Placeboni said:


> I thought we were very open about all that as well. It just turned out he was omitting certain things.
> Reading things online sometimes just makes me want to throw it all in and think 'they're all the same'. Because honestly, I don't think I could deal with the dissapointment all over again.. thinking someone is different, respectful, honest, and then discovering it's all lies.
> But, yeah, despite that, I still believe there are some decent men out there.


I'm sorry. I understand where you are coming from.


----------



## Maricha75

Placeboni said:


> Unfortunately, the alternative to a man who watches porn is a man who watches porn and lies about it.


No. There actually IS one more alternative.... those who choose not to watch it, for whatever reason, and DO NOT watch it. Yea, I know, many will continue to try to say "he just hides it well". But he doesn't. He doesn't even look at it, and has not in all the time I have known him. Doesn't mean he has NEVER seen it, but he chooses not to watch it. There ARE men out there like that.


----------



## Placeboni

Maricha75 said:


> No. There actually IS one more alternative.... those who choose not to watch it, for whatever reason, and DO NOT watch it. Yea, I know, many will continue to try to say "he just hides it well". But he doesn't. He doesn't even look at it, and has not in all the time I have known him. Doesn't mean he has NEVER seen it, but he chooses not to watch it. There ARE men out there like that.


Where are they...? No seriously, where?  I want one..


----------



## MSP

Maricha75 said:


> There ARE men out there like that.


*raises hand*

I honestly don't like it. I have watched it in the past, but I find it overwhelming. Too much of a rush, without any connection. And afterwards I feel emotionally flat, like it's hard to appreciate the basic things in life properly. 

Yuck. Not for me. 

Don't get me wrong, I like how women look and I am a freaking sex maniac, but porn is a lousy version of the real thing. FWIW, I don't like sugary drinks, computer games, or McDonalds, either.  I am into authenticity in every form I can get it: real women, real food, real socializing . . .


----------



## Maricha75

Placeboni said:


> Where are they...? No seriously, where?  I want one..


My husband, my dad, my son, my nephew, my brother-in-law, my soon-to-be-brother-in-law, and many others I know from church. I know, even many Christian men struggle with the temptation. Some (many?) succumb, but there are some who do not.


----------



## MSP

I don't feel as in control of my own sexuality when I've used porn to be aroused. I felt like I was handing over my arousal to an external thing. Not using porn I am far more able to control my erections and get them when I want, keep them, and last longer during sex. If I know I am the master of my own body, it feels good and I feel confident. The less I have to rely of something external, the more I am able to be in charge of not only my own pleasure, but also my wife's. When I know how to make my body respond I can focus more on my wife. I don't feel a lack if she isn't being "sexy enough" to turn me on, because I am more in tune with my body's arousal stages. Admittedly, being a man, my arousal stage is either 'on' or 'asleep', but still.


----------



## samyeagar

While I have watched porn in the past, I have never been really into it...unless you count things my STBW and I have made together...


----------



## Wolf1974

sparkyjim said:


> If this is true then how the *h e double toothpicks* did we ever get out of the 1st century B.C. ?
> 
> The concept that porn is normal, necessary or needed is laughable at best and ignorant at worst.
> 
> Hilarious that you use the term ignorant when it was well documented that from the invention of art ,even though it was crude painting on walls, the naked form was shown and celebrated to include sex acts.
> 
> However I totally agree with you on this and I would never apologize for being a visual man.
> 
> But let me put it to you another way. I also have taste buds, but I don't go around eating everything that is out there. I have a sense of discernment what foods are good for me and I make good choices.
> 
> It seems that men use this "I'm visual" as an excuse to be lecherous, and that is just a load of C**p. Meanwhile your partner is feeling less than attractive and then we get real "sensitive" and roll out the "well you are struggling with your self esteem..."
> 
> I use no excuse, nor did I say that I ever use it to make my partner feel bad. Matter of fact inside a relationship only use porn if we both care to watch it. Single I use it as I see fit. You assume way to much
> 
> Yeah duh, because the man she just had sex with won't keep his eyes in his head.
> 
> There comes a point where I say that men have to lead in the relationship, and the best way to lead is to be someone who knows where they are going , and to be worthy of being followed.
> 
> And you can't keep your eyes on the goal if your head is swiveling at every piece of a** that walks by.
> 
> My wife knows that I am very sexual. She also knows that I hold that in check and that I only want to express my sexuality with her. She understands that I chose her to be my mate, in every way, and that I only want to see her and be with her. She can't possibly ever be boring to me because she is all I need sexually, because I chose to put her in that position.
> 
> So, I am visual, and I have testosterone coursing through my veins, and I want to have as much sex as I can, but none of those reasons are excuses for being less than the best husband I can be for my wife.
> 
> I think it is past time for men to start understanding what it truly means to be a man.


I know exactly what it means to be a man, even if that doesn't fit in your definition of it...I'm good here thanks


----------



## Wolf1974

samyeagar said:


> While I have watched porn in the past, I have never been really into it...unless you count things my STBW and I have made together...


Best kind :smthumbup:


----------



## richie33

There is also women who expect their husbands to stay in a sexless marriage that have the nerve to demand they don't watch porn.


----------



## Placeboni

richie33 said:


> There is also women who expect their husbands to stay in a sexless marriage that have the nerve to demand they don't watch porn.


Hmm, that certainly wouldn't be very fair!!


----------



## sparkyjim

richie33 said:


> There is also women who expect their husbands to stay in a sexless marriage that have the nerve to demand they don't watch porn.


And there are some men who think that they can stay in a sexless marriage *and be satisfied* by using porn.

I draw from my own experience here. It was a dead end. I wish that I had done anything different than what I did.

The only concession I will make is that I got two beautiful kids out of the marriage.

Anyways, after the marriage ended, and after I went through therapy, I began to feel like the man I always thought that I would be, and I found someone who saw that in me also.

I could go on the down low and keep this information all to myself, but I see men and women here who are struggling with the very same things that I struggled with. I am not preaching to the choir, but to the ones who I think could benefit from what I share.

Sometimes I see something expressed which sets me of on a rant. Most times I just want to have a quiet conversation about what it means to be a real man.

Either way I speak from my experience and from my studies on the subject. And it is my opinion that men in general do not realize how negatively they have been affected by modern pornography.

I also think that society needs to have a better forum for men and women to discuss and to learn about sex.

I dare you to find a conversation among men about sex that does not include nervous, uncomfortable laughter, or crudity. Maybe father to son... but even then with a lot of trepidation.

We owe it to ourselves to do better.


----------



## AliceA

:iagree::iagree::iagree: with sparkyjim

Another way of looking at internet porn is, would you want your children to have sex this way? Do you want them to grow up thinking that this is the normal way to have sex? Penetration only, no touching, fake pleasure, and no idea how ludicrous this is in the real world. Also, if it's not something we'd want our children to do, why are we supporting an industry where someone's son/daughter is being exploited by it?

Well, each to their own. I won't be watching it ever again, since researching it further since seeing this thread I can see why I was so disturbed by the one I saw, nor supporting the industry that prostitutes people, but that's simply a choice I've made.

There are alternatives out there for stimulation, if you even need it. Maybe if more guys read a few romance novels, they could use their brain (yep, imagination folks) to make some R rated images. lol


----------



## TopsyTurvy5

Placeboni said:


> Where are they...? No seriously, where?  I want one..


I don't view porn, but I really don't see anything wrong with it in moderation. (I do realize there are tons of different kinds of porn, but I'm talking about standard sex porn). I think if a couple or an individual wants to view porn, and they do so in moderation where it doesn't negatively impact their lives, then I'm fine with that. In my opinion, it is no worse than alcohol. 
Honestly, I would probably avoid a woman who was militant against porn, as it would make me think she was rigid and had sexual hang ups. No thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sparkyjim

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> Honestly, I would probably avoid a woman who was militant against porn,
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I tend to agree with you on this...I don't like "militant" against porn either.

But is is good to be knowledgeable about it and to understand the possible problems with it - and yes, like alcohol... I agree with that also.

Learning about sex, enjoying sex, having fun with sex... I don't think it is possible to do this and avoid all erotica. And I am rather pro erotica.

I don't need porn. I never really needed it. It was just a diversion. It was a way *NOT* to deal with my problems.

I will say it again - I don't think most men realize how negatively it affects them. I know I didn't.


----------



## melw74

It must be really horrible to have such an issue from your husbands watching porn.... for some the mere thought of their spouse viewing porn gets them outraged, upset.... it plays on their minds, and interferes with their daily lives.

For us porn is not a major issue in our relationship, Its just something we enjoy doing from time to time, like eating pizza, or going dancing, that is how trivial it is to us,  but for some its this major part. I have always tried to understand why it gets some woman so irate, and angry.... they start to question themselves as a partner, If their husbands are satisfied with what they have, are they comparing.......I never see it like that all.

I watch it on occasion, and so does my hubby, I think as long as its not interfering in your own lives, meaning your partner would prefer it than the real thing, I think that is when it becomes a problem, nobody likes to be neglected, or feels that something is more important than them..... I cant see how something being viewed on the tv could bother than so much.... I would hate to live like that, It just seems like they have problems with their own insecurities....

My husband is married to me, I am the person he chose to spend the rest of his life with, he was not forced into it, I cant or should not force him to stop doing something he likes doing on occasion, because i may hate it ( i don't).... but if i did, i would have to choose to ignore it, its not something i can change.

Men are hot blooded.... so they like to view a bit of porn once in a while, its not the end of the world.

I think its more than likely its the whole thing, not just the women in the porn....


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Maricha75 said:


> No. There actually IS one more alternative.... those who choose not to watch it, for whatever reason, and DO NOT watch it. Yea, I know, many will continue to try to say "he just hides it well". But he doesn't. He doesn't even look at it, and has not in all the time I have known him. Doesn't mean he has NEVER seen it, but he chooses not to watch it. There ARE men out there like that.


My husband is one of them. I hate when people try to convince me that he is doing it behind my back. 

It's like uh,no honey,you don't know my husband.Every thing is out in the open with this guy even when it might hurt me..he puts it ALL on the table. 
He knows I'm fine with porn as long as it isn't being hidden from me (bad past experience w/serious porn addict...literal addict,not the tam defined addict)

hmmm...on second thought he DOES look at porn.But I happen to be the star of all his xxx pics and clips.


----------



## turnera

sparkyjim said:


> I tend to agree with you on this...I don't like "militant" against porn either.


I don't like militant against ANYTHING.

Close-minded people who are unwilling to see another's point of view, whatever it's about (well, barring murder and torture and such) are poison to everyone around them..


----------



## committed4ever

"I think its more than likely its the whole thing, not just the women in the porn"

Melow, I'm curious about this, what do you mean by this statement? What is "the whole thing" that you are referring to.

Since my husband started having to travel a lot about a year ago I actually wondered if he DID watch porn on occassion, because he loves sex and sexual interaction. I think he would have sex every night if he thought I was up for it. But shamefully I admit TAM had me thinking that it was no way a man could be without his wife for days at a time and not watch porn and jack off. I didnt want to know so I had a "don't ask don't tell" policy. 

But I finally decided to go ahead and ask him. His answer was a smile and "just the porn you gave me." Although I knew he always takes the photo album of the boudoir photo shoot I did for him, I never connected the dots that way. (It hardly can be classified as porn though but it is sensual).

I wonder what makes men make statements like "all men watch porn." It defies logic to me knowing that no man can possibly know that, neither can there ever be a high enough sample pool for a poll on it. Some demographics never get polled about anything so you are never going to get a representative sample of men to reflect accuracy.


----------



## Caribbean Man

sparkyjim said:


> And there are some men who think that they can stay in a sexless marriage *and be satisfied* by using porn.
> 
> I draw from my own experience here. It was a dead end. I wish that I had done anything different than what I did.
> 
> The only concession I will make is that I got two beautiful kids out of the marriage.
> 
> Anyways, after the marriage ended, and after I went through therapy, I began to feel like the man I always thought that I would be, and I found someone who saw that in me also.
> 
> I could go on the down low and keep this information all to myself, but I see men and women here who are struggling with the very same things that I struggled with. I am not preaching to the choir, but to the ones who I think could benefit from what I share.
> 
> *Sometimes I see something expressed which sets me of on a rant. Most times I just want to have a quiet conversation about what it means to be a real man.*
> 
> Either way I speak from my experience and from my studies on the subject. *And it is my opinion that men in general do not realize how negatively they have been affected by modern pornography.*
> 
> I also think that society needs to have a better forum for men and women to discuss and to learn about sex.
> 
> I dare you to find a conversation among men about sex that does not include nervous, uncomfortable laughter, or crudity. Maybe father to son... but even then with a lot of trepidation.
> 
> We owe it to ourselves to do better.


I am trying to figure out whatyou mean by the two statements I highlighted above.

1] Do you mean to say that real men don't look at porn?

2]Are you saying that porn doesn't affect women or are you saying that it doesn't affect women in the same way it affects men?

My personal belief is that it affects each individual differently, and like everything else in life, affect society as a whole , given that human sexuality isn't static.

Whether that effect is good or bad, like everything else , would always be a matter for public debate.

But it is subjective, for sure.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

I think the internet itself and other modern communications tools (e.g. mobile phones, tablets etc) have, and will continue to have negative effects which are not well understood. They all add a kind of 24 hour insularity and increased aloofness to real human life. This affects some more than others. IMO naturally introverted people can often lapse into a life where real face-to-face human contact is limited, even voice-to-voice contact is limited (i.e. text a lot, call very little). So add in the porn component and one can imagine, at the collective level, a generation of people that have a lot more difficulty with intimacy – sexual and otherwise – than previous generations. So I agree that the downside implications are probably underestimated.

What I don’t believe is that adult men that watch porn become less respectful of women. They maintain whatever level of respect for women that they had going in. I also don’t believe their propensity for violence of any kind goes up. These are negative traits that are created in childhood and NOT via movies or pictures – they arise from much more powerful factors like experiencing sexual abuse, domestic violence, extreme parental neglect or violent socialization.


----------



## sparkyjim

Caribbean Man said:


> I am trying to figure out whatyou mean by the two statements I highlighted above.
> 
> 1] Do you mean to say that real men don't look at porn?
> 
> 2]Are you saying that porn doesn't affect women or are you saying that it doesn't affect women in the same way it affects men?
> 
> My personal belief is that it affects each individual differently, and like everything else in life, affect society as a whole , given that human sexuality isn't static.
> 
> Whether that effect is good or bad, like everything else , would always be a matter for public debate.
> 
> But it is subjective, for sure.


I won't argue the subjective aspect. Of course it is subjective.

I will answer your questions.

1) I suppose that I do mean that real men don't watch porn. I am not saying that they have never, or that they are turned off by it. Quite the contrary. But I think real men can recognize that porn really offers them nothing in their relationships with women. I think they can see it as a distraction and as a distortion. I think that they would much rather make their own than watch someone else have sex.

2) I think this answer stands on it's own. I make no mention of women because that is not my point. 

I think that porn affects men in a negative way and I think they don't realize it.

I was sexually active before I ever saw any porn. I remember what I did before I was influenced by porn. It was natural, it was fun, and I enjoyed it.

Then I saw porn for the first time. Now instead of connecting with my partner and enjoying what we did I felt that I had to have anal, or I had to "give her a pearl necklace." None of these things added to her enjoyment of our sex.

And nowadays one can watch any kind of porn for free on the internet. Now it is about being slapped, and choked, and facials, and fists, and so much else that is really just very much fringe behavior. And I am not attracted to any of these things but there are men who are negatively influenced by these images.

And instead of having mature conversations about sex men share gross images and laugh at the crudest things that they can find on the internet.

And most porn is all about the man and has nothing to do with loving relationships. I guess that is all fine and good, if all you ever want to do is stay at home and whack off in front of the computer screen. But at some point a man gets tired of this, perhaps because it is so empty, and now he wants a real woman, only he hasn't the slightest clue how to approach one, or how to please one.

I know there are sites, like Reddit, where there are young men who have come to realize that being raised in the porn generation is not so great after all. Young men in their 20's are experiencing ED with women. I am not "parroting" yourbrainonporn here. I have written to these men myself. 

But let's forget about these men for a moment.

Let's talk about the husband who thinks he is HD and he is in a LD relationship.

Let's just say that he has been using porn, even before he met his wife. So he thinks he is HD, and he verifies that by the fact that he is so turned on by porn. Meanwhile his relationship with his wife suffers, because she is not as into the sex that he wants to have, and the way that he wants to have it.

But what if that man had never been exposed to porn in the first place? Wouldn't his sexual desires be a little more mainstream? A little more about connecting with his wife? A little more something she could get on board with?

Meanwhile I suppose, and I draw not only from my experience, but from many I have talked with, his HD is artificially pushed higher by the porn that he is using. The porn feels good to him, because it reinforces the "idea" that he has that he is HD. After all, it feels good to a man to be HD.

But in truth his real sex life is suffering and the only sex he is having is with himself.

Of course, when he doesn't consume porn he feels his HD slipping, and he panics. He tries to have a rousing sex life with his wife, but his technique is wrong, his attitude is wrong, she senses something and is turned off by him, she also cannot possibly keep up because she is only one woman, she is human...

And so he goes back to the porn, because it stimulates him perfectly, he can find the exact new thing that will turn him on. he once again confirms to himself that , yes, he is HD.

So this little scenario is just one of many that I have spoken to others about. It also most closely reflects my personal experience.

I don't suppose this to be anyone who has posted here, and certainly it is not all men. But within what I said in this scenario I think there are little snippets that might apply to all men.

For example, being influenced with what happens in porn. I have nothing against knowledge, but porn, despite it's "for educational purposes" claim,  is very little about sharing knowledge.

The other snippet I think applies is that porn makes a man think that he is higher desire than he truly is.

And I think that this is a negative affect, because although it makes him feel good about himself, it does nothing for his real sex life.


----------



## DeeDawn

Wow. I wish I had found this thread before I posted my own. I too feel sick and violated by my husbands porn habit that he tried to hide. I don't believe him when says he has never "physically" cheated. I suffer from depression so it just makes it hurt more. The thing that hurts the most is that he said it was 50% my fault he did it. I will never get over that.


----------



## Cosmos

sparkyjim said:


> I won't argue the subjective aspect. Of course it is subjective.
> 
> I will answer your questions.
> 
> 1) I suppose that I do mean that real men don't watch porn. I am not saying that they have never, or that they are turned off by it. Quite the contrary. But I think real men can recognize that porn really offers them nothing in their relationships with women. I think they can see it as a distraction and as a distortion. I think that they would much rather make their own than watch someone else have sex.
> 
> 2) I think this answer stands on it's own. I make no mention of women because that is not my point.
> 
> I think that porn affects men in a negative way and I think they don't realize it.
> 
> I was sexually active before I ever saw any porn. I remember what I did before I was influenced by porn. It was natural, it was fun, and I enjoyed it.
> 
> Then I saw porn for the first time. Now instead of connecting with my partner and enjoying what we did I felt that I had to have anal, or I had to "give her a pearl necklace." None of these things added to her enjoyment of our sex.
> 
> And nowadays one can watch any kind of porn for free on the internet. Now it is about being slapped, and choked, and facials, and fists, and so much else that is really just very much fringe behavior. And I am not attracted to any of these things but there are men who are negatively influenced by these images.
> 
> And instead of having mature conversations about sex men share gross images and laugh at the crudest things that they can find on the internet.
> 
> And most porn is all about the man and has nothing to do with loving relationships. I guess that is all fine and good, if all you ever want to do is stay at home and whack off in front of the computer screen. But at some point a man gets tired of this, perhaps because it is so empty, and now he wants a real woman, only he hasn't the slightest clue how to approach one, or how to please one.
> 
> I know there are sites, like Reddit, where there are young men who have come to realize that being raised in the porn generation is not so great after all. Young men in their 20's are experiencing ED with women. I am not "parroting" yourbrainonporn here. I have written to these men myself.
> 
> But let's forget about these men for a moment.
> 
> Let's talk about the husband who thinks he is HD and he is in a LD relationship.
> 
> Let's just say that he has been using porn, even before he met his wife. So he thinks he is HD, and he verifies that by the fact that he is so turned on by porn. Meanwhile his relationship with his wife suffers, because she is not as into the sex that he wants to have, and the way that he wants to have it.
> 
> But what if that man had never been exposed to porn in the first place? Wouldn't his sexual desires be a little more mainstream? A little more about connecting with his wife? A little more something she could get on board with?
> 
> Meanwhile I suppose, and I draw not only from my experience, but from many I have talked with, his HD is artificially pushed higher by the porn that he is using. The porn feels good to him, because it reinforces the "idea" that he has that he is HD. After all, it feels good to a man to be HD.
> 
> But in truth his real sex life is suffering and the only sex he is having is with himself.
> 
> Of course, when he doesn't consume porn he feels his HD slipping, and he panics. He tries to have a rousing sex life with his wife, but his technique is wrong, his attitude is wrong, she senses something and is turned off by him, she also cannot possibly keep up because she is only one woman, she is human...
> 
> And so he goes back to the porn, because it stimulates him perfectly, he can find the exact new thing that will turn him on. he once again confirms to himself that , yes, he is HD.
> 
> So this little scenario is just one of many that I have spoken to others about. It also most closely reflects my personal experience.
> 
> I don't suppose this to be anyone who has posted here, and certainly it is not all men. But within what I said in this scenario I think there are little snippets that might apply to all men.
> 
> For example, being influenced with what happens in porn. I have nothing against knowledge, but porn, despite it's "for educational purposes" claim,  is very little about sharing knowledge.
> 
> The other snippet I think applies is that porn makes a man think that he is higher desire than he truly is.
> 
> And I think that this is a negative affect, because although it makes him feel good about himself, it does nothing for his real sex life.


A 'like' just wasn't enough. Excellent post, Sparkyjim!


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Cosmos said:


> A 'like' just wasn't enough. Excellent post, Sparkyjim!


True that.


----------



## lifeistooshort

sparkyjim said:


> I won't argue the subjective aspect. Of course it is subjective.
> 
> I will answer your questions.
> 
> 1) I suppose that I do mean that real men don't watch porn. I am not saying that they have never, or that they are turned off by it. Quite the contrary. But I think real men can recognize that porn really offers them nothing in their relationships with women. I think they can see it as a distraction and as a distortion. I think that they would much rather make their own than watch someone else have sex.
> 
> 2) I think this answer stands on it's own. I make no mention of women because that is not my point.
> 
> I think that porn affects men in a negative way and I think they don't realize it.
> 
> I was sexually active before I ever saw any porn. I remember what I did before I was influenced by porn. It was natural, it was fun, and I enjoyed it.
> 
> Then I saw porn for the first time. Now instead of connecting with my partner and enjoying what we did I felt that I had to have anal, or I had to "give her a pearl necklace." None of these things added to her enjoyment of our sex.
> 
> And nowadays one can watch any kind of porn for free on the internet. Now it is about being slapped, and choked, and facials, and fists, and so much else that is really just very much fringe behavior. And I am not attracted to any of these things but there are men who are negatively influenced by these images.
> 
> And instead of having mature conversations about sex men share gross images and laugh at the crudest things that they can find on the internet.
> 
> And most porn is all about the man and has nothing to do with loving relationships. I guess that is all fine and good, if all you ever want to do is stay at home and whack off in front of the computer screen. But at some point a man gets tired of this, perhaps because it is so empty, and now he wants a real woman, only he hasn't the slightest clue how to approach one, or how to please one.
> 
> I know there are sites, like Reddit, where there are young men who have come to realize that being raised in the porn generation is not so great after all. Young men in their 20's are experiencing ED with women. I am not "parroting" yourbrainonporn here. I have written to these men myself.
> 
> But let's forget about these men for a moment.
> 
> Let's talk about the husband who thinks he is HD and he is in a LD relationship.
> 
> Let's just say that he has been using porn, even before he met his wife. So he thinks he is HD, and he verifies that by the fact that he is so turned on by porn. Meanwhile his relationship with his wife suffers, because she is not as into the sex that he wants to have, and the way that he wants to have it.
> 
> But what if that man had never been exposed to porn in the first place? Wouldn't his sexual desires be a little more mainstream? A little more about connecting with his wife? A little more something she could get on board with?
> 
> Meanwhile I suppose, and I draw not only from my experience, but from many I have talked with, his HD is artificially pushed higher by the porn that he is using. The porn feels good to him, because it reinforces the "idea" that he has that he is HD. After all, it feels good to a man to be HD.
> 
> But in truth his real sex life is suffering and the only sex he is having is with himself.
> 
> Of course, when he doesn't consume porn he feels his HD slipping, and he panics. He tries to have a rousing sex life with his wife, but his technique is wrong, his attitude is wrong, she senses something and is turned off by him, she also cannot possibly keep up because she is only one woman, she is human...
> 
> And so he goes back to the porn, because it stimulates him perfectly, he can find the exact new thing that will turn him on. he once again confirms to himself that , yes, he is HD.
> 
> So this little scenario is just one of many that I have spoken to others about. It also most closely reflects my personal experience.
> 
> I don't suppose this to be anyone who has posted here, and certainly it is not all men. But within what I said in this scenario I think there are little snippets that might apply to all men.
> 
> For example, being influenced with what happens in porn. I have nothing against knowledge, but porn, despite it's "for educational purposes" claim,  is very little about sharing knowledge.
> 
> The other snippet I think applies is that porn makes a man think that he is higher desire than he truly is.
> 
> And I think that this is a negative affect, because although it makes him feel good about himself, it does nothing for his real sex life.


This is one of the most insightful, thoughtful posts i've ever seen. I'm going to show it to my hb later, not because he watches porn but because there's so much to discuss here.
Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

DeeDawn said:


> Wow. I wish I had found this thread before I posted my own. I too feel sick and violated by my husbands porn habit that he tried to hide. I don't believe him when says he has never "physically" cheated. I suffer from depression so it just makes it hurt more. The thing that hurts the most is that he said it was 50% my fault he did it. I will never get over that.


Anyone who tells you that is most likely abusive. Are you being treated for THAT?


----------



## Caribbean Man

sparkyjim said:


> I won't argue the subjective aspect. Of course it is subjective.
> 
> I will answer your questions.
> 
> 1) *I suppose that I do mean that real men don't watch porn. I am not saying that they have never, or that they are turned off by it. Quite the contrary.  But I think real men can recognize that porn really offers them nothing in their relationships with women. I think they can see it as a distraction and as a distortion. I think that they would much rather make their own than watch someone else have sex.
> *
> 2) I think this answer stands on it's own. I make no mention of women because that is not my point.
> 
> I think that porn affects men in a negative way and I think they don't realize it.
> 
> I was sexually active before I ever saw any porn. I remember what I did before I was influenced by porn. It was natural, it was fun, and I enjoyed it.
> 
> Then I saw porn for the first time. Now instead of connecting with my partner and enjoying what we did I felt that I had to have anal, or I had to "give her a pearl necklace." None of these things added to her enjoyment of our sex.
> 
> And nowadays one can watch any kind of porn for free on the internet. Now it is about being slapped, and choked, and facials, and fists, and so much else that is really just very much fringe behavior. And I am not attracted to any of these things but there are men who are negatively influenced by these images.
> 
> And instead of having mature conversations about sex men share gross images and laugh at the crudest things that they can find on the internet.
> 
> And most porn is all about the man and has nothing to do with loving relationships. I guess that is all fine and good, if all you ever want to do is stay at home and whack off in front of the computer screen. But at some point a man gets tired of this, perhaps because it is so empty, and now he wants a real woman, only he hasn't the slightest clue how to approach one, or how to please one.
> 
> I know there are sites, like Reddit, where there are young men who have come to realize that being raised in the porn generation is not so great after all. Young men in their 20's are experiencing ED with women. I am not "parroting" yourbrainonporn here. I have written to these men myself.
> 
> But let's forget about these men for a moment.
> 
> Let's talk about the husband who thinks he is HD and he is in a LD relationship.
> 
> Let's just say that he has been using porn, even before he met his wife. So he thinks he is HD, and he verifies that by the fact that he is so turned on by porn. Meanwhile his relationship with his wife suffers, because she is not as into the sex that he wants to have, and the way that he wants to have it.
> 
> But what if that man had never been exposed to porn in the first place? Wouldn't his sexual desires be a little more mainstream? A little more about connecting with his wife? A little more something she could get on board with?
> 
> Meanwhile I suppose, and I draw not only from my experience, but from many I have talked with, his HD is artificially pushed higher by the porn that he is using. The porn feels good to him, because it reinforces the "idea" that he has that he is HD. After all, it feels good to a man to be HD.
> 
> But in truth his real sex life is suffering and the only sex he is having is with himself.
> 
> Of course, when he doesn't consume porn he feels his HD slipping, and he panics. He tries to have a rousing sex life with his wife, but his technique is wrong, his attitude is wrong, she senses something and is turned off by him, she also cannot possibly keep up because she is only one woman, she is human...
> 
> And so he goes back to the porn, because it stimulates him perfectly, he can find the exact new thing that will turn him on. he once again confirms to himself that , yes, he is HD.
> 
> So this little scenario is just one of many that I have spoken to others about. It also most closely reflects my personal experience.
> 
> I don't suppose this to be anyone who has posted here, and certainly it is not all men. But within what I said in this scenario I think there are little snippets that might apply to all men.
> 
> For example, being influenced with what happens in porn. I have nothing against knowledge, but porn, despite it's "for educational purposes" claim,  is very little about sharing knowledge.
> 
> The other snippet I think applies is that porn makes a man think that he is higher desire than he truly is.
> 
> And I think that this is a negative affect, because although it makes him feel good about himself, it does nothing for his real sex life.


Well I don't know if I can agree with anything you posted here because imo, your fundamental premise which I highlighted of what constitutes a " real man " isn't congruent with mine.
So for me, I can't see it as a logical or even acceptable definition of what constitutes / defines *my* manhood.


I really can't see the connection between being a real man and one's abstinence or indulgence in porn. That's why I asked if it affected women which you refused to answer.

Does a man's sexual preference make him less of a man or not
a " real man?"
So how exactly does the type of stimuli a man uses to arouse him make him less of man or not a " real man?"

The assumption that "_ real men can recognize that porn really offers them nothing in their relationships with women_" seems extremely subjective and baseless to me , because masturbation doesn't offer a man anything in his relationship with a woman either.
Or is it that you're also saying real men don't masturbate?

Lol, I love to go hunting for days in the jungles with other men, and I really can't see how it offers anything in my relationship with my wife of 20 years .
I do it primarily _for me_.
Doesn't mean I love her an less, and like everything else, I do it in moderation.

In my book of rules, the fundamental of manliness has absolutely nothing to do with the type of sex I have with my wife , if I own a gun , go to church every Sunday , love Jesus , support a political party or use porn.
Those are minors and real men _never_ major in minors.
The fundamental of manliness imo, is taking full responsibility for my thoughts and actions, developing my own moral codes , knowing what is good and using it in moderation , abstenience from anything that is bad and most of all , 
Knowing the difference.

IMO, the minute the term" real men' comes into any discussion of politics, religion , sexuality or as in this case , porn, everything begins to slide downhill to prejudice and eventually ,discrimination because morality is subjective.

When I was a boy , society told us that " real men" don't masturbate , and if we did we would become physically weak and sickly.In other words, we wouldn't be like " real men." I see a parallel with your equating porn use with ED.
When I used porn , I never suffered from ED. Later down in my late 30's long after getting married and dropping porn, I began to suffer from ED, and it was definitely NOT related to porn. I did what " real men " do. Took responsibility for my problem, didn't blame anyone or anything and worked on it.
I fixed it and today, I live a much healthier lifestyle, still enjoying lots of fulfilling sex.

When I was a boy , society also taught us that gays weren't
" real men ", and only the men who got married to women and started a family were " real men."


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Caribbean Man said:


> Lol, I love to go hunting for days in the jungles with other men, and I really can't see how it offers anything in my relationship with my wife of 20 years .
> I do it primarily _for me_.
> Doesn't mean I love her an less, and like everything else, I do it in moderation.
> 
> In my book of rules, the fundamental of manliness has absolutely nothing to do with the type of sex I have with my wife , if I own a gun , go to church every Sunday , love Jesus , support a political party or use porn.
> Those are minors and real men _never_ major in minors.
> The fundamental of manliness imo, is taking full responsibility for my thoughts and actions, developing my own moral codes , knowing what is good and using it in moderation , abstenience from anything that is bad and most of all ,
> Knowing the difference.
> ."


But did you promise to only hunt with your wife forsaking all others? 

See I don't see some of those as minors, and I see all minors making up the major. They all = who he is and what he stands for. 
And they are super important to what kind of man he is. 

Just as everything small about me helps equal the same of me. And it equates to the type of woman I am. 

Plus Sparky's post was awesome. Just saying.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*LittleDeer* said:


> But did you promise to only hunt with your wife forsaking all others?
> 
> See I don't see some of those as minors, and I see all minors making up the major. They all = who he is and what he stands for.
> And they are super important to what kind of man he is.
> 
> Just as everything small about me helps equal the same of me. And it equates to the type of woman I am.
> 
> Plus Sparky's post was awesome. Just saying.


Lemme ask you a simple question, so that we can put the awesomeness of his post to test.

Lets give it the old " human beings " test.

If a man's porn use makes him lesser than a man, can the same apply to women?

Does a woman's porn use make her lesser than a woman or not a " real woman?"


----------



## committed4ever

Sparky, I don't agree with your first two sentences in paragraph 1) about real men. In fact I wish you had not included these sentences because of the AWESOMENESS of the rest of your post. Real men do make mistakes and sometimes do not realize the harm they may be doing to themselves and their mate. 

But the rest of your post was the most ON POINT commentary regarding porn that i have ever seen on TAM. In my post above where I asked my H did he watch porn, he kind of agreed with you in one sentence "porn is just as empty as my past lifestyle." (He is a reformed player).


----------



## lifeistooshort

Caribbean Man said:


> Lemme ask you a simple question, so that we can put the awesomeness of his post to test.
> 
> Lets give it the old " human beings " test.
> 
> If a man's porn use makes him lesser than a man, can the same apply to women?
> 
> Does a woman's porn use make her lesser than a woman or not a " real woman?"


If porn treated men and women equally I'd say yes. But since porn heavily favors men making demands and giving very little if nothing back while women are treated like receptacles it's apples and oranges.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

lifeistooshort said:


> If porn treated men and women equally I'd say yes. But since porn heavily favors men making demands and giving very little if nothing back while women are treated like receptacles it's apples and oranges.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So then the awesomeness of the post in rooted in the fact that it's politically correct?

Lol.

That's the same logic that was used to justify apartheid in South Africa for decades.
It was politically correct to do so.


----------



## Faithful Wife

sparkyjim said:


> Let's talk about the husband who thinks he is HD and he is in a LD relationship.
> 
> Let's just say that he has been using porn, even before he met his wife. So he thinks he is HD, and he verifies that by the fact that he is so turned on by porn. Meanwhile his relationship with his wife suffers, because she is not as into the sex that he wants to have, and the way that he wants to have it.
> 
> But what if that man had never been exposed to porn in the first place? Wouldn't his sexual desires be a little more mainstream? A little more about connecting with his wife? A little more something she could get on board with?
> 
> Meanwhile I suppose, and I draw not only from my experience, but from many I have talked with, his HD is artificially pushed higher by the porn that he is using. The porn feels good to him, because it reinforces the "idea" that he has that he is HD. After all, it feels good to a man to be HD.
> 
> But in truth his real sex life is suffering and the only sex he is having is with himself.
> 
> Of course, when he doesn't consume porn he feels his HD slipping, and he panics. He tries to have a rousing sex life with his wife, but his technique is wrong, his attitude is wrong, she senses something and is turned off by him, she also cannot possibly keep up because she is only one woman, she is human...
> 
> And so he goes back to the porn, because it stimulates him perfectly, he can find the exact new thing that will turn him on. he once again confirms to himself that , yes, he is HD.
> 
> So this little scenario is just one of many that I have spoken to others about. It also most closely reflects my personal experience.
> 
> I don't suppose this to be anyone who has posted here, and certainly it is not all men. But within what I said in this scenario I think there are little snippets that might apply to all men.
> 
> For example, being influenced with what happens in porn. I have nothing against knowledge, but porn, despite it's "for educational purposes" claim,  is very little about sharing knowledge.
> 
> *The other snippet I think applies is that porn makes a man think that he is higher desire than he truly is.*
> 
> And I think that this is a negative affect, because although it makes him feel good about himself, it does nothing for his real sex life.


Totally agree, especially the bolded part. If you are truly HD, you will not stop short of having actual partnered sex, and porn being your only outlet during a sexless marriage will never be enough. If it is enough, you really aren't HD. And I'd say that about women, too. (Plenty of women also watch/read porn).

But also...being HD isn't that lofty of a goal. If you aren't, you just aren't.


----------



## Laralie

Faithful Wife said:


> Totally agree, especially the bolded part. If you are truly HD, you will not stop short of having actual partnered sex, and porn being your only outlet during a sexless marriage will never be enough. If it is enough, you really aren't HD. And I'd say that about women, too. (Plenty of women also watch/read porn).
> 
> But also...being HD isn't that lofty of a goal. If you aren't, you just aren't.


HD is no goal at all unless you have an HD partner.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I just meant that some people may wish or think they were HD but aren't...and for those people, they should just get good with how they really are and not "try" to make themselves appear or be HD.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Faithful Wife said:


> I just meant that some people may wish or think they were HD but aren't...and for those people, they should just get good with how they really are and not "try" to make themselves appear or be HD.


I agree. 

I think a lot of the sex issues in my marriage happened bc DH was trying to fit himself into that "sex every day" HD mold. It didn't work out for him bc he's just NOT into it every single day. We've managed to work it out and settle nicely into an every other day/every 2 day routine depending on the week. It has made him more outspoken for when he wants sex and it has made the actual sex part even better than it already was before.


----------



## richie33

Sparkyjim post raised some really good points. But isn't it possible for a man to love every inch of his wife's body and soul, worship her, treat her with all love and respect in the world but still as a bit of voyeur still enjoy watching another couple have sex on a screen? Some here would still label that man a porn addict.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I wouldn't label him as one. But I just think that anything we hide from each other can cause various issues. If his wife doesn't care and she knows about it, and if it doesn't cause problems in the man's personal or partnered sex life, then no problem.


----------



## Caribbean Man

richie33 said:


> Sparkyjim post raised some really good points. *But isn't it possible for a man to love every inch of his wife's body and soul, worship her, treat her with all love and respect in the world but still as a bit of voyeur still enjoy watching another couple have sex on a screen? *
> 
> *Some here would still label that man a porn addict*.


And therein lies the flaw in Sparky's logic.

It is politically correct to say that a real man doesn't use porn, and I suspect he might even be saying that real men should_ only_ see their wives alone as sexually appealing...

So then back to the " human test."

If it is ok for a woman to enjoy find other men sexually appealing beside her husband, then why is it not ok for a man to find other women sexually appealing?

Is the true measure of a person's love based on the fact they don't find others attractive or is it's that they don't act on their attraction for others? 

Which is it?


----------



## DoF

Faithful Wife said:


> I wouldn't label him as one. But I just think that anything we hide from each other can cause various issues. If his wife doesn't care and she knows about it, and if it doesn't cause problems in the man's personal or partnered sex life, then no problem.


Sure, just be careful with that. It's probably best if you didn't share all of your sexual desires/thought that might come to your brain every now and then.

Those should probably just stay IN your head......assuming you even get those of course.

Sharing EVERY LITTLE THING would be rather extreme. And nothing taken to the extreme is every good.


----------



## Faithful Wife

DoF said:


> Sure, just be careful with that. It's probably best if you didn't share all of your sexual desires/thought that might come to your brain every now and then.
> 
> Those should probably just stay IN your head......assuming you even get those of course.
> 
> Sharing EVERY LITTLE THING would be rather extreme. And nothing taken to the extreme is every good.


Yeah...I don't disagree. I wasn't meaning every little thought should be shared. But my H and I do share every bit of porn either of us see, and it works out quite well for us.

The reason we do this is that I am the one who might go off on it without him and he isn't ok with that.


----------



## Blondilocks

richie33 said:


> Sparkyjim post raised some really good points. But isn't it possible for a man to love every inch of his wife's body and soul, worship her, treat her with all love and respect in the world but still as a bit of voyeur still enjoy watching another couple have sex on a screen? Some here would still label that man a porn addict.


Not sure the man could even be called a voyeur as voyeurism is considered watching without the person(s) knowledge. Obviously, anyone making porn knows they're going to be watched. 

It would seem to me that without the condemnation and fear of being caught, the act of watching would lose some of it's appeal. But, what do I know.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Caribbean Man said:


> And therein lies the flaw in Sparky's logic.
> 
> It is politically correct to say that a real man doesn't use porn, and I suspect he might even be saying that real men should_ only_ see their wives alone as sexually appealing...
> 
> So then back to the " human test."
> 
> If it is ok for a woman to enjoy find other men sexually appealing beside her husband, then why is it not ok for a man to find other women sexually appealing?
> 
> Is the true measure of a person's love based on the fact they don't find others attractive or is it's that they don't act on their attraction for others?
> 
> Which is it?


I don't see where you're getting this or what it has to do with political correctness. He's pointing out the ways in which porn interferes with a guys sex life with his wife, in ways many men don't understand because they're so intent on defending porn they don't consider all angles. In fact, I could argue that it's you that is defending political correctness, because the mainstream belief among men is that porn is separate and has nothing to do with the women in their lives and it's incorrect to suggest that's not true. 

The politically correct belief among men is that they should be able to have porn with no issues with their wives, wives should understand it has nothing do with them, but if they don't accommodate the increased drive and desires for different things brought on by porn they're not meeting their mans needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

Caribbean Man said:


> So then the awesomeness of the post in rooted in the fact that it's politically correct?
> 
> Lol.
> 
> That's the same logic that was used to justify apartheid in South Africa for decades.
> It was politically correct to do so.


What? Please explain how you get from porn not treating men and women equally to justifying apartheid in south Africa.
Lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NoWhere

Its amazing to see such a disconnect here mostly between men and women. 

Me and my girlfriend watch porn together sometimes. I agree I do objectiify the women in porn in one way. It arouses me, but I only love my girlfriend. Its all visual to me. 

I guess I fit neatly with what some people have said here. However it is not a addiction as I don't need it and I don't run off and watch porn by myself.


----------



## veryconfuzed

Porn is just like fashion mags to teens as porn is to males. You see the rampant plastic surgeries and eating disorders by teens are heightened because they want to look like that cover girl in the mag. Not knowing either by ignorance or delusion that those perfect cover girls were heavily airbrushed and photoshopped.

Now they have the beauty 'trend' - thigh gap. I saw a TV showing a fat lady have 'thigh' gap surgery. I mean really? If everyone is sensible enough not to believe that having a thigh gap makes you pretty then this stupid beauty trends will stop.

That's why vanity is really the devil's favorite sin. 



It's the same with porn. My husband has asked me to do those things he sees in porn. I would rather not say what because it's really degrading. Porn is degrading to women no matter how you see it.

I know he is just being playful but my answer was a firm NO! In fact one day I told him - as long as I buy a dildo and use it on you - LOL.

My husband said he is not a perv. Because we almost divorce for a 2nd time since I found out he was watching porn while I'm asleep and looking at a lot of sex ads.

The result - I told him to do an STD test or we are over. Just saw his final result yesterday and he is clean, thank God.

He said it's coz I don't touch him enough. So these past few days, I act like I can't get enough of him until he himself said I make him sore, LOL. Which is what I want.

Porn is really giving the men in our lives a skewed way to make love to us. That I am 100% sure.

They think porn is real life just like those teenagers think those cover girls are real life perfect.

It's really alarming.


----------



## Caribbean Man

lifeistooshort said:


> *the mainstream belief among men is that porn is separate and has nothing to do with the women in their lives and it's incorrect to suggest that's not true. *


So you are now saying that women don't use porn , because it affects them negatively...

Please refer to post # 314 on the previous page.

LMAO!

Do have any research or studies or even statistics to back up _your_ thesis?


----------



## sparkyjim

Caribbean Man said:


> So then the awesomeness of the post in rooted in the fact that it's politically correct?
> 
> Lol.
> 
> That's the same logic that was used to justify apartheid in South Africa for decades.
> It was politically correct to do so.




Really?


----------



## sparkyjim

If I say that real men can see that porn is a distraction and a distortion, who am I hurting?

Real men wear pink.

Real men can cry at sad movies.

Real men hug their children.

Real men can work long hours at thankless jobs.

Real men can leave references to huge racial inequalities out of otherwise meaningful posts...


----------



## Caribbean Man

sparkyjim said:


> Really?


Yep.

The politically correct view back then was that native blacks were incapable or running because they were genetically inferior, even though scientifically, it couldn't be proven.

So maybe you could post the research or statistics that lend credibility to your suggestion that men who use porn are inferior to other men who don't or at least not " real men?"


----------



## Caribbean Man

sparkyjim said:


> If I say that real men can see that porn is a distraction and a distortion, who am I hurting?
> 
> Real men wear pink.
> 
> Real men can cry at sad movies.
> 
> Real men hug their children.
> 
> Real men can work long hours at thankless jobs.
> 
> Real men can leave references to huge racial inequalities out of otherwise meaningful posts...



I think a real man can understand that it is morally wrong to use his personal beliefs as a yardstick to shame other people who believe differently into accepting his beliefs.

That's why I specifically asked you what did you mean when you attached the words " REAL MEN " to your feelings about porn.

See, I'm not a porn user , but I don't think men who use porn are inferior or lesser than " real men."

If you felt that when you abused porn , you weren't a real man , then that's your personal feelings.

Unless of course, you have some sort of research to back up your belief in the superiority of men who don't use porn...


----------



## Faithful Wife

lol!


----------



## sparkyjim

Right now I am probably too steamed to talk to you.

Honestly, you are one of the ones that I look up to when I post here and now I feel like I am stooping to your level?

Sorry, am I shaming you now?

I am just too p*ssed right now to have a meaningful discussion.


----------



## Caribbean Man

sparkyjim said:


> Right now I am probably too steamed to talk to you.
> 
> Honestly, you are one of the ones that I look up to when I post here and now I feel like I am stooping to your level?
> 
> Sorry, am I shaming you now?
> 
> I am just too p*ssed right now to have a meaningful discussion.


Lol,

So you get mad when someone disagrees with you on porn?

Or you mad because you have no evidence to support your assumption about 
" real men?"


----------



## Wolf1974

sparkyjim said:


> If I say that real men can see that porn is a distraction and a distortion, who am I hurting?
> 
> Real men wear pink.
> 
> Real men can cry at sad movies.
> 
> Real men hug their children.
> 
> Real men can work long hours at thankless jobs.
> 
> Real men can leave references to huge racial inequalities out of otherwise meaningful posts...


Good lord :rofl:


----------



## sparkyjim

committed4ever said:


> Sparky, I don't agree with your first two sentences in paragraph 1) about real men. In fact I wish you had not included these sentences because of the AWESOMENESS of the rest of your post. Real men do make mistakes and sometimes do not realize the harm they may be doing to themselves and their mate.
> 
> But the rest of your post was the most ON POINT commentary regarding porn that i have ever seen on TAM. In my post above where I asked my H did he watch porn, he kind of agreed with you in one sentence "porn is just as empty as my past lifestyle." (He is a reformed player).



Thanks for the compliment.

I am not trying to shame anyone by stating that my opinion is that real men do not watch porn. I agree with you that real men make mistakes, but "real men" are, in my definition, self aware and self correcting and can also see when they have hurt someone and they can make amends.

Perhaps "real men", as I define it, are unconcerned with porn, because it is not real sex.

I hope those who read my posts do not consider me to be sex negative. That could not be further from the truth. I am also not against erotica. I know it has been around for thousands of years. Also I feel that sexual education is a good thing.

I think that one of the draws of porn is that it brings into the light something which as a culture we seem unable to discuss. I think men, and women, are hungry for more information about sex.

Well, there are a lot of books on the subject. I own a few myself. There is a lot of good information out there. 

And I would not want to shame someone for being curious about sex. I just don't think that porn is a very good source to learn about it.


----------



## sparkyjim

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't see where you're getting this or what it has to do with political correctness. He's pointing out the ways in which porn interferes with a guys sex life with his wife, in ways many men don't understand because they're so intent on defending porn they don't consider all angles. In fact, I could argue that it's you that is defending political correctness, because the mainstream belief among men is that porn is separate and has nothing to do with the women in their lives and it's incorrect to suggest that's not true.
> 
> The politically correct belief among men is that they should be able to have porn with no issues with their wives, wives should understand it has nothing do with them, but if they don't accommodate the increased drive and desires for different things brought on by porn they're not meeting their mans needs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Good post. I missed this earlier. My bad. I had angry goggles on...

You are right. And even women fall into this category.

On another thread, maybe it was this one, someone posted references to a survey where 6 out of 10 women were okay with their partners using porn as long as....wait for it...

*as long as it didn't affect their relationship.*

Well, you might as well not even ask the question if you are going to have such an involved qualifier attached to it.

Are you okay with porn use? yes or no.

But you can't ask a question like that without also including the qualifier because porn can and does affect a relationship.

But I think that women feel pressured to be politically correct also and to say that they are okay with the use of porn.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Caribbean Man said:


> So you are now saying that women don't use porn , because it affects them negatively...
> 
> Please refer to post # 314 on the previous page.
> 
> LMAO!
> 
> Do have any research or studies or even statistics to back up _your_ thesis?


I don't think that post was saying that no women use porn. 

I'm confused though, are you saying porn _doesn't_ cause damage to views on women, sex and to many relationships?
Or just that even though it does, people should still be allowed to watch it?


----------



## lifeistooshort

Caribbean Man said:


> So you are now saying that women don't use porn , because it affects them negatively...
> 
> Please refer to post # 314 on the previous page.
> 
> LMAO!
> 
> Do have any research or studies or even statistics to back up _your_ thesis?



Rich coming from the guy making snarky comments because someone on the internet who's never met him suggested he might not be a real man.

Look, if you're bent on watching porn you don't have to answer to anyone; well maybe your wife but that's between you guys. It's very clear that your goal here is not to discuss but to defend yourself, and when you can't you make snide remarks. It's to be expected from someone that can't make a rational argument; surprising since i've seen you leave a lot of great comments on other threads. Porn is like politics and religion for a lot of guys though: otherwise rational people go off the deep end when they think their God given rights to it are in question. You can relax though; nobody is going to take your porn away, we're simply discussing things.

And i'm not especially interested in discussing statistics with you: I work with data and statistics for a living so I know how little they mean. You clearly don't.

If you want to jerk off to porn nobody's stopping you. If your wife is ok with it then good for you. I will not be responding to any more of your posts as they look like something a snotty 13 year old would write.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I don't think that post was saying that no women use porn.
> 
> I'm confused though, are you saying porn _doesn't_ cause damage to views on women, sex and to many relationships?
> Or just that even though it does, people should still be allowed to watch it?


Well if you think that's what I'm saying, then you're really confused.

Does alcohol cause damage to views on women and to many relationships?

All I'm saying is that porn usage cannot define a " real man" or even a " real woman."
Lots of women view porn anyway, so does their pron usage damage how they view men?

That's the problem with those wacky generalizations. It's like saying " poverty creates crime " when in reality no evidence to support it exists.
It just sounds politically correct, so people who are poor believe it.
The same can be said of porn usage.

Cognitive biases.


Furthermore, as has been said ad nauseam on this thread, it is up to each couple to decide if they want porn in their relationship , and in what amounts , type , etc.


----------



## lifeistooshort

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I don't think that post was saying that no women use porn.
> 
> I'm confused though, are you saying porn _doesn't_ cause damage to views on women, sex and to many relationships?
> Or just that even though it does, people should still be allowed to watch it?


It didn't; I suggested that porn is more damaging to men because a lot of porn depicts men treating women poorly and the women loving it. If women routinely watched porn that routinely showed their men being treated poorly and then treated their husbands poorly as a result then it would be more damaging to women. 

I wonder how many women watch porn and demand their guy do lots of stuff he doesn't want; how many women watch a strap on being shoved up a guy's bum and then push their guy for it? I'd bet not nearly as many as men who watch porn and then think they're entitled to anal. Hey ladies let's watch a bunch of porn with men pounding their women and getting off 6 times in an hour and then when our men can't do it because they're tired from the first or second round we'll declare them LD bums that won't meet our needs! Make sure this porn all has monster c0cks too, because it has nothing to do with our men. Wonder how that will go over?

But this is what you get with someone that's bent on defending himself and his God given right to porn instead of discussing like a grown up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Caribbean Man said:


> Lots of women view porn anyway, so does their pron usage damage how they view men?
> .


Men don't get treated the same as a woman in porn. You can't compare the 2. 
Women watching porn can damage how we view _ourselves_. We feel we need to do certain sex acts because they are seen as normal , our vagina's should look a certain way, there's something wrong with us if it takes time, effort and foreplay to get off, we feel uncomfortable speaking up for our own needs because we are surrounded with images of women having sex for ONLY the man's benefit and being happy about it. 

It may have caused changes in how people view sex without them even realizing it. If that's not an issue for you or your wife that's fine but that doesn't mean that porn is harmless. If a smoker doesn't die of lung cancer does it mean smoking is safe?


----------



## turnera

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Men don't get treated the same as a woman in porn. You can't compare the 2.
> Women watching porn can damage how we view _ourselves_. We feel we need to do certain sex acts because they are seen as normal


OR...you could do what I did and buy and watch it with my H and then laugh about it with him and say 'I hope you don't think _I'M_ gonna do that!' and then go on to have perfectly normal sex with him because I've already established the boundary of not taking porn seriously.


----------



## richie33

Caribbean Man has stated dozens of times on this site that he and his wife do not watch porn, it's not apart of their marriage but because he offers up his opinion he is cast as " one of the porn a users and their God given right".


----------



## Caribbean Man

richie33 said:


> Caribbean Man has stated dozens of times on this site that he and his wife do not watch porn, it's not apart of their marriage but because he offers up his opinion he is cast as " one of the porn a users and their God given right".


Well that's how it is on this thread.

However if you go to this thread;

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/190738-does-using-porn-make-man-lesser-man.html

There is an alternative view and an anonymous poll that paints a much different picture.


----------



## Caribbean Man

turnera said:


> OR...you could do what I did and buy and watch it with my H and then laugh about it with him and say 'I hope you don't think _I'M_ gonna do that!' and then go on to have perfectly normal sex with him because I've already established the boundary of not taking porn seriously.


well for us it became boring so it just faded away.

It was just like a novelty.

Thing is two people could easily decide what _they_ want to do with it without the shaming or terror tactics.


----------



## turnera

Caribbean Man said:


> well for us it became boring so it just faded away.
> 
> It was just like a novelty.
> 
> Thing is two people could easily decide what _they_ want to do with it without the shaming or terror tactics.


Exactly. Which is why we only use it about once a year, when we're bored.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

turnera said:


> OR...you could do what I did and buy and watch it with my H and then laugh about it with him and say 'I hope you don't think _I'M_ gonna do that!' and then go on to have perfectly normal sex with him because I've already established the boundary of not taking porn seriously.


Not all women are you. Porn is being watched by very young, very impressionable people. Pretty much every teen has 24/7 access to free porn in their pocket. It's creating problems on a large scale. Again, like the smoking thing. Some can do it and be perfectly fine but it's not a harmless activity in general. 

Quite honestly, I don't care who watches and who doesn't individually. I've said myself that I watch it, but I can still see the problems associated with it and the damage it can do.


----------



## turnera

Yeah, just like snorting cinnamon or eating dirt. Anything can be detrimental. What matters is how each individual handles it. Doesn't mean you should ban cinnamon.


----------



## Caribbean Man

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Not all women are you. Porn is being watched by very young, very impressionable people. Pretty much every teen has 24/7 access to free porn in their pocket. It's creating problems on a large scale. Again, like the smoking thing. Some can do it and be perfectly fine but it's not a harmless activity in general.
> 
> Quite honestly, I don't care who watches and who doesn't individually. I've said myself that I watch it, but I can still see the problems associated with it and the damage it can do.


That's why there are areas designated for smokers and other areas for none smokers.

BTW, it is illegal to make porn accessible to kids under the age of 18, just like it's illegal to make cigarettes available to them.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

turnera said:


> Yeah, just like snorting cinnamon or eating dirt. Anything can be detrimental. What matters is how each individual handles it. Doesn't mean you should ban cinnamon.



Cinnamon has not changed views on women and sex, unless there is a billion dollar industry where men become aroused and get off to watching women being forced to snort it that I don't know about.... and I never said porn should be banned. 

I'm not talking about individual problems, which do also happen, but society as a whole and how porn has changed it.


----------



## turnera

Honey, they have found porn going back to the Stone Ages. You'll never get rid of it. It's part of what humans are, do.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

turnera said:


> Honey, they have found porn going back to the Stone Ages. You'll never get rid of it. It's part of what humans are, do.


Please don't call me honey.

I've commented on this before. Porn in the Stone Ages was not the same as porn is today. Porn has changed, the availability of it has changed, we are now having more problems because it's so widely available, for free, and is getting more and more extreme. 

And I still haven't said I want rid of it. 

FTR- I think it's important to know the damages so we can teach our kids, so we can keep adding better kinds of porn to the industry, so we can talk about it with our partners to avoid any problems, etc. None of these things involve banning but they do involve acknowledging a problem.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Caribbean Man said:


> Lemme ask you a simple question, so that we can put the awesomeness of his post to test.
> 
> Lets give it the old " human beings " test.
> 
> If a man's porn use makes him lesser than a man, can the same apply to women?
> 
> Does a woman's porn use make her lesser than a woman or not a " real woman?"


Let me answer.  

Yes I think it can. 

I know that the terms real men and real women are not the way I usually describe people. But if I say it and when I often see it used- to me beating a real man or woman would mean being ethical, truthful, reasonable and doing the right thing even when it's difficult and you may benefit from doing the wrong thing. 

Whilst I don't think watching porn harms most women in quite the same way as men (although it most certainly can in some instances), I think it does change the way women and men view themselves and sex. I also don't agree with watching porn because of human sex trafficking and the fact that they take advantage of and exploit women. It makes me ill. So if women or men use porn I do feel it makes them people with incomparable values to me, and very unethical. So I feel the same about them. 

I feel that way about a lot of things though, like buying ethical chocolate and sourcing as many ethical products as possible. I boycott things all the time, and write letters to company's and politicians, because I'm passionate about human rights. 

That's not to say, you can't naively use or do something, however If i believe someone knows that people are being treated terribly for their pleasure of comfort, being raped/ tortured/ enslaved/ treated as a commodity and sub human, and continues to be OK with that, then they are not the type of people I admire, that's for sure.

Also there have been studies done, that after watching porn both men and women were more likely to rape apologists. And did in fact view women differently, I think that's because (not always but on the whole most) porn degrades and debases women, far more then men. So I think yes it changes the way we view women.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

*LittleDeer* said:


> Whilst I don't think watching porn harms most women in quite the same way as men (although it most certainly can in some instances), I think it does change the way women and men view themselves and sex.
> 
> Anything you do in live changes your views about yourself, others, and the thing it is about. It's called becoming experienced. Watching porn is like eating, you can do it to get better or maintained, you can do it and get worse then you are.
> 
> I also don't agree with watching porn because of human sex trafficking and the fact that they take advantage of and exploit women. It makes me ill.
> 
> This is about how it is made, and is comparable with cheap clothing fabrication, Iphone assemblage, golddigging in Africa, whatever you can think of. As soon as production is held to human norms this argument is gone, and the argument goes allmost anything you use as a consument. What about the production of McDonalds hamburgers...
> 
> 
> So if women or men use porn I do feel it makes them people with incomparable values to me, and very unethical. So I feel the same about them.
> 
> I feel that way about a lot of things though, like buying ethical chocolate and sourcing as many ethical products as possible. I boycott things all the time, and write letters to company's and politicians, because I'm passionate about human rights.
> 
> I wonder if you also feel about invading Iraq and killing 600.000 - 1.2 million civilians in the process of securing the oilfields. For a couple of dimes per gallon cheaper fuel you have blood on your hands.
> 
> Ever though about how many handicapped children have to live there in eternal pain because of you, with your ethical supremacy in a select area of life and forgetting about the real bad stuff?? How about the life of their parents, watching the children suffer?? There must be thousands and thousands. All because of keeping your moral high ground alive.
> 
> 
> (Oh, and if the oil companies can they will make you pay more than in a free market!)


----------



## LongWalk

Who has watched this TED talk on porn?


----------



## See_Listen_Love

LongWalk said:


> Who has watched this TED talk on porn?


Nice link, it is good the subject gets attention. But it is a great taboo, it shows in his talk.

He misses the point greatly, as almost all adult males watch porn, and it has not only negative but also positive results.

The sexual revolution caused by 50 Shades of Grey in the elder women category shows the positive effects on people's sex lives when there is good stimulation.

Good porn can do the same for men and women alike, not as it is mainly portrayed, as replacement for marital intimacy, but as enhancer of that intimacy by having a more satisfactory sex life. People can learn and be inspired to have better sex, better erotic feelings, more intimacy.

The comparison with good and bad porn is like that with good and bad food. Good gives good results, bad gives bad results.
That saying covers imho the whole life cycle of the product, from production through consumption to health effects for everybody involved.

So yes, good porn should be the norm, bad porn should be prevented.


----------



## NobodySpecial

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Men don't get treated the same as a woman in porn. You can't compare the 2.
> Women watching porn can damage how we view _ourselves_. We feel we need to do certain sex acts because they are seen as normal , our vagina's should look a certain way, there's something wrong with us if it takes time, effort and foreplay to get off, we feel uncomfortable speaking up for our own needs because we are surrounded with images of women having sex for ONLY the man's benefit and being happy about it.
> 
> It may have caused changes in how people view sex without them even realizing it. If that's not an issue for you or your wife that's fine but that doesn't mean that porn is harmless. If a smoker doesn't die of lung cancer does it mean smoking is safe?


I can see where you are coming from. For my part, I choose to change the way I use media rather than allow it to change me. One cannot be a discerning consumer of cigarettes. They do what they do. But one can be a discerning consumer of media. We limit what we watch of regular tv, or comment on it and assess it with judgment. The same with porn.


----------



## DeeDawn

I feel disappointed. A few days ago I posted about not being able to get over the fact my husband hid his porn habit and I found out. Once I mentioned that I suffer from mental illness I feel that it all shifted to it being my fault. Pornography can like gambling, drinking, shopping ect. It can start innocently enough but for those who cannot find a stopping point find it takes more and more of their vice to get the feelings they got the first times they did it. It in my opinion for some it is just a gateway to something worse. Nothing will change my mind ever about this. When people are watching of young children being molested to get off because the regular porn stopped giving the same thrill, when a social drinker becomes an alcoholic because a couple of drinks doesn't give the same feeling anymore, when a gambler spends their entire families savings because they just know the will hit it big next time, when you max out all your credit cards to shop for things you don't need and then go home and hide the items. Hmmm seems like there are a lot of people out there who started innocently enough but it got out of control. I thought that I could share here about my feelings but no matter what forum I responded in I felt chastised by several people. I am a mentally disabled wife whose husband chose porn. We both have problems. They can both lead to something worse. At least I see doctors and take meds and see therapists and OWN it. I know what it is like for an illness to get out of control. I view all of this as an illness we are in a sick society. If I was wrong nobody would need this website and its forums. It would be virtually empty. Yet it is full of the same stories over and over just the names change. I choose to leave this site knowing what I said is in fact what it is. Justify your actions all you want. Good for you if you can "stop anytime" but there are people who have been talked about or are doing the talking who can't. It's all a sickness. It's all wrong. Hope you all find the justifications for your actions you need to make it ok. As for me I am going to take a harder road the road to break free. I know many will scoff at this my last post. I don't care. I know that I said is true. Logging off forever. I will go it alone, much better off than feeding on this.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Your problems are not the ones you think of.

Ignorance is your chosen path.


----------



## sparkyjim

richie33 said:


> Caribbean Man has stated dozens of times on this site that he and his wife do not watch porn, it's not apart of their marriage but because he offers up his opinion he is cast as " one of the porn a users and their God given right".


Well, that is just unfair, because I know he defends other people's right to give their opinion...


----------



## turnera

DeeDawn said:


> Good for you if you can "stop anytime" but there are people who have been talked about or are doing the talking who can't. It's all a sickness. It's all wrong. Hope you all find the justifications for your actions you need to make it ok. As for me I am going to take a harder road the road to break free. I know many will scoff at this my last post. I don't care. I know that I said is true. Logging off forever. I will go it alone, much better off than feeding on this.


Dee, that's your depression talking. You don't agree with me, so I'm taking my toys and going home. It's not helpful or productive for YOU to do this. Do you want to get better or not? If so, then start making the harder choices and confront your issues. 

As for this? You say some can stop. In the next sentence you say it's all wrong, it's all a sickness. Do you see that your personal issue is coloring your opinion? The best way to find healing is to be open enough to see all aspects of an issue.

I hope you get better help than you've been getting. Maybe it's time to change doctors or meds.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

See_Listen_Love said:


> Anything you do in live changes your views about yourself, others, and the thing it is about. It's called becoming experienced. Watching porn is like eating, you can do it to get better or maintained, you can do it and get worse then you are.


No not like eating at all. You have to eat to live, you don't have to watch porn to live. 



> This is about how it is made, and is comparable with cheap clothing fabrication, Iphone assemblage, golddigging in Africa, whatever you can think of. As soon as production is held to human norms this argument is gone, and the argument goes allmost anything you use as a consument. What about the production of McDonalds hamburgers...


I don't agree with exploiting anyone for any reason. It doesn't go with almost anything you consume, if the people truly have choice, and are paid fairly and treated well then it's completely different. 
I think it's despicable that people are being exploited for big business to line the pockets of the wealthy. However in the porn industry it's even worse, because you are sexually exploiting people, women are being abused/raped/trafficked called names and degraded in the most appalling ways often with low level to extreme levels of violence. 
To me, when it comes to sex, something most people on TAM would agree is usually the closest and most personal, bonding and loving thing, to exploit people by com modifying them in the sex industry is just creepy and nasty IMO. 




> I wonder if you also feel about invading Iraq and killing 600.000 - 1.2 million civilians in the process of securing the oilfields. For a couple of dimes per gallon cheaper fuel you have blood on your hands.


Actually yes. :scratchhead: I think it's revolting, and have debated, about clean renewable energy/ fuels and written letters and voted in elections with this in mind. People over profits all the way. I think the governments need to stop lining the pockets of billionaires and build infrastructure and transport options that help the environment and do not harm people. 


> Ever though about how many handicapped children have to live there in eternal pain because of you, with your ethical supremacy in a select area of life and forgetting about the real bad stuff?? How about the life of their parents, watching the children suffer?? There must be thousands and thousands. All because of keeping your moral high ground alive.
> 
> (Oh, and if the oil companies can they will make you pay more than in a free market!)


Why is this because of me. :scratchhead:
I'm sorry your post seems off the wall. So because I care about sex trafficking, and women and men in porn, and the abuse that happens in the porn industry, the degradation of women and how it effects people's brains and marriages and so on I can't possibly care about anything else, and all the other bad stuff in the world is my fault? :rofl:
And there are disabled kids suffering because I advocate against commodifying and degrading women? 
That's just bizarre.


----------



## Cosmos

This is one of the best articles I've read on this subject, and I think it goes a long way in explaining the differences in how (some) men and women regard porn. 

For most women who can't / won't tolerate porn in their relationships, the issue goes way beyond mere jealousy and/or low-self esteem. 

Pornography and Your Relationship


----------



## turnera

Huh. Basically what I said.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Cosmos said:


> This is one of the best articles I've read on this subject, and I think it goes a long way in explaining the differences in how (some) men and women regard porn.
> 
> For most women who can't / won't tolerate porn in their relationships, the issue goes way beyond mere jealousy and/or low-self esteem.
> 
> Pornography and Your Relationship


Great article.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

DeeDawn said:


> I feel disappointed. A few days ago I posted about not being able to get over the fact my husband hid his porn habit and I found out. Once I mentioned that I suffer from mental illness I feel that it all shifted to it being my fault. Pornography can like gambling, drinking, shopping ect. It can start innocently enough but for those who cannot find a stopping point find it takes more and more of their vice to get the feelings they got the first times they did it. It in my opinion for some it is just a gateway to something worse. Nothing will change my mind ever about this. When people are watching of young children being molested to get off because the regular porn stopped giving the same thrill, when a social drinker becomes an alcoholic because a couple of drinks doesn't give the same feeling anymore, when a gambler spends their entire families savings because they just know the will hit it big next time, when you max out all your credit cards to shop for things you don't need and then go home and hide the items. Hmmm seems like there are a lot of people out there who started innocently enough but it got out of control. I thought that I could share here about my feelings but no matter what forum I responded in I felt chastised by several people. I am a mentally disabled wife whose husband chose porn. We both have problems. They can both lead to something worse. At least I see doctors and take meds and see therapists and OWN it. I know what it is like for an illness to get out of control. I view all of this as an illness we are in a sick society. If I was wrong nobody would need this website and its forums. It would be virtually empty. Yet it is full of the same stories over and over just the names change. I choose to leave this site knowing what I said is in fact what it is. Justify your actions all you want. Good for you if you can "stop anytime" but there are people who have been talked about or are doing the talking who can't. It's all a sickness. It's all wrong. Hope you all find the justifications for your actions you need to make it ok. As for me I am going to take a harder road the road to break free. I know many will scoff at this my last post. I don't care. I know that I said is true. Logging off forever. I will go it alone, much better off than feeding on this.


Dee

I have not read your posts, other than this one. Is depression the illness you have? If so I can understand why your husband viewing porn would upset you. Did finding this out lead to a mood crash for you? Please PM me if you'd like. I've been fighting depression for most of the past 8 years.


----------



## Theseus

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Men don't get treated the same as a woman in porn. You can't compare the 2.
> Women watching porn can damage how we view _ourselves_. We feel we need to do certain sex acts because they are seen as normal , our vagina's should look a certain way,


I've tried not to get back into this thread but I can't let this comment go.

Have you seen the men in porn? Tall, muscled, and inevitably and well-endowed. This sends the exact same message to men about what thy should look like. So if it makes women feel inadequate, it does the same thing to men.

Or you could open any women's magazine: Elle, Cosmopolitan, etc, or even buy a Barbie doll and see plenty of "unrealistic women". 



> _there's something wrong with us if it takes time, effort and foreplay to get off, we feel uncomfortable speaking up for our own needs because we are surrounded with images of women having sex for ONLY the man's benefit and being happy about it. _


In at least 99% of the porn I've seen, the benefit is on both sides pretty equally. And what about lesbian porn? That's hugely popular, and there's no man on the screen at all!


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Theseus said:


> I've tried to stay out of this thread but I can't let this comment go.
> 
> Have you seen the men in porn? Tall, muscled, and inevitably and well-endowed. This sends the exact same message to men about what thy should look like. So if it makes women feel inadequate, it does the same thing to men.
> 
> Or you could open any women's magazine: Elle, Cosmopolitan, etc, or even buy a Barbie doll and see plenty of "unrealistic women".
> 
> 
> 
> In at least 99% of the porn I've seen, the benefit is on both sides pretty equally. And what about lesbian porn? That's hugely popular, and there's no man on the screen at all!


I've seen all kinds of men in porn, some are just gross. With women, there is variety as well but it's usually only thin, fake boobs or BBW, not much in between. I do agree that men can have issues with size or body types in porn too but what I was talking about there is how they are treated. Men getting treated like sex objects used only for the woman's pleasure is rare, a kink search, and still almost always have pleasure for themselves as well. That's not the case with the women in porn. 

I have issues with media portrayal of women and their bodies too so I agree with you there.

If 99% of the porn you watch has the woman enjoying herself (for real, no faking) and has foreplay and sex in a way a woman enjoys, a connection, then that's awesome. That is not how 99% of porn is though. I wish more men would chose to watch that kind of porn over the typical stuff. I've often found a lot of it is labeled as "female friendly", like we are the only ones who would like that kind of thing  I have to search harder and specifically to find porn that looks like anything I would actually enjoy myself. Usually it's more clips of getting banged and fake moaning ridiculously, or anal or oral.

Most "lesbian" porn typically sucks too and is still faked orgasm with huge fake nails (ouch!) and no build up. It's made for men. There's maybe 5% of it that I would actually enjoy on my own body.


----------



## MidwestDave

Caribbean Man said:


> Ok then, let's compare porn to alcohol.
> Porn = Escapism.
> Romance Novels = Escapism.
> Alcohol = Escapism.


This is true. It's easy and convenient sometimes to think about these things as if they are black or white. 

Not to get philosophical, but to some extent I blame technology. Technology now allows a female to have sex at will, without any fear of getting pregnant. Technology now allows a man to push a button and fulfill any sexual fantasy he might have. Combine one of our most basic drives with these and why is anyone surprised that relationships are suffering? Back in the old days, monogamy was a lot simpler and the most natural choice.


----------



## Q tip

Just wondering. What if you went to some hunk website and (intentionally) got caught doing yourself over some 18 yo stud. What would he think or do. Might even get fun..


----------



## PieceOfSky

*Re: Re: One Wife's Totally Honest Post About Porn*



MidwestDave said:


> This is true. It's easy and convenient sometimes to think about these things as if they are black or white.
> 
> Not to get philosophical, but to some extent I blame technology. Technology now allows a female to have sex at will, without any fear of getting pregnant. Technology now allows a man to push a button and fulfill any sexual fantasy he might have. Combine one of our most basic drives with these and why is anyone surprised that relationships are suffering? Back in the old days, monogamy was a lot simpler and the most natural choice.



There will come a day when computer generated porn will be indistinguishable from that recorded today with real human subjects. It will be easy to have anyone appear to do anything. Some may choose to only view generated porn involving the likenesses of one's spouse and oneself engaged in mutually approved encounters. Some may choose something not at all like that.

I wonder when that time comes, how discussions about computer generated porn will go, in public forums and at home.

There will also be other technologies that will have effects on how humans interact sexually (or don't).

The realistic computer generated porn does not seem like it would be that far away....maybe 20 years?


----------



## Catherine602

Piece I'm concerned about my children who are too young to get access to porn. What will happen to them when they can. You're right about technological developments. 2D and other developments may make it more realistic.

Boys and girls will come of age and their normative will be prone sex.. They will not be the same as adults who sexually mature with natural real life experiences. 

My only hope is that when the detrimental effect are fully actualized, young people will move against porn. They will be the ones crippled by it and they should be the ones to get it out of their lives. 

The incidence and prevalence of ED and social isolation among young men is increasing. It will reach a tipping point in time and some action will be taken.

I don't know if there are any surveys that have been conducted. I hope I am wrong and that the problem is self limiting.


----------



## DoF

It's no different than drugs.....food.......cars.............or just about ANYTHING else in life.

Mind you, I can completely relate to your feelings and concerns. 

I know that letting go is probably one of the hardest things for parents (especially mothers).

All we can do is educate and make our children aware of the dangers, self control and abuse.

Rest is up to them. Most learn the hard way (I know I did, and I've seen most do as well).


----------



## tommyr

fix this said:


> only to have him check out other women and jerk off to 18 year olds who are hotter than you for the rest of your lives together


So which part of the above bothers you?
a) him checking out other women
b) him jerking off while checking out other women
c) him jerking off to 18 year old other women
d) him jerking off to women hotter than you 
e) him jerking off the rest of your lives together

I seriously doubt you can (or should) really control A or E.
You can only expect that he is discrete (invisible) while doing A and E.

You _might_ have a chance of negotiating B/C/D with him.
Why don't you propose some alternative that is not offensive to you?


----------



## SurpriseMyself

What I don't get is how men just excuse this behavior. They act like it's some male need to look at porn and they can't live without it. But they turn it on you and shame you for not being ok with it. If a satisfying sexual relationship is important, why would you let porn get in the way? Why do you defend it? If a woman said she had to flirt with men and you would just have to take it, I wouldn't say she was fulfilling a need. That is a want and she is prioritizing that single want over he entire relationship. 

For many women, porn is a deal breaker. Defend it all you want, but if it makes your wife feel as if you are cheating on her then you might as well be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SurpriseMyself

tommyr said:


> So which part of the above bothers you?
> a) him checking out other women
> b) him jerking off while checking out other women
> c) him jerking off to 18 year old other women
> d) him jerking off to women hotter than you
> e) him jerking off the rest of your lives together
> 
> I seriously doubt you can (or should) really control A or E.
> You can only expect that he is discrete (invisible) while doing A and E.
> 
> You _might_ have a chance of negotiating B/C/D with him.
> Why don't you propose some alternative that is not offensive to you?


You might have a chance of negotiating some of this with him? Give me a break! What if a woman said she's going to get sex from the neighbor and you might be able to talk her out of it and just get oral... Or you could propose other alternatives but you just have to accept this as it's true for all women. That is such a cop out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AVR1962

ebp123 said:


> What I don't get is how men just excuse this behavior. They act like it's some male need to look at porn and they can't live without it. But they turn it on you and shame you for not being ok with it. If a satisfying sexual relationship is important, why would you let porn get in the way? Why do you defend it? If a woman said she had to flirt with men and you would just have to take it, I wouldn't say she was fulfilling a need. That is a want and she is prioritizing that single want over he entire relationship.
> 
> For many women, porn is a deal breaker. Defend it all you want, but if it makes your wife feel as if you are cheating on her then you might as well be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Right on target here!!


----------



## Faithful Wife

Some men really do not have some kind of irresistible urge to look at porn. The ones who do are the ones who say they ALL do...but many do not. For some men, real sex is so much better than the flat and dull world of porn, that they don't say they "have" to have it nor defend it.

I'm not against porn necessarily. But the idea that it is something that every man will do frequently is only pushed by the men who do it frequently are usually the ones who don't do it in the open with transparency.


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## tommyr

ebp123 said:


> You might have a chance of negotiating some of this with him? Give me a break! What if a woman said she's going to get sex from the neighbor and you might be able to talk her out of it and just get oral... Or you could propose other alternatives but you just have to accept this as it's true for all women. That is such a cop out.


You are not seriously equating him-watching-porn to her-sex-with-neighbor?

Anyway I never said that she should just accept his porn use. My point was that the guy is gonna jerk off and if the porn is such a big deal for her she should consider options that allow him to bust a nut without offending her.


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## SurpriseMyself

tommyr said:


> You are not seriously equating him-watching-porn to her-sex-with-neighbor?
> 
> Anyway I never said that she should just accept his porn use. My point was that the guy is gonna jerk off and if the porn is such a big deal for her she should consider options that allow him to bust a nut without offending her.


If it makes her not want to have sex with her husband, then yes, it is equivalent to cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tommyr

ebp123 said:


> If it makes her not want to have sex with her husband, then yes, it is equivalent to cheating.


While I don't agree with the above, I can respect that it seems both you and OP might believe that, and therefore your husbands' behavior also needs to "work" for everybody involved.

Now let's agree that he will continue jerking off...... (please tell me you weren't also trying to control his right to self service....)

Given your prohibitive views on certain porn use, I think it is especially important then to discuss with him specific suggestions on your approved alternative jerk off material. Literotica? Your old Cosmo mags or Title9Sports catalog? Nudies of wife? Yesterday's panties? Just throwing some ideas out there which have proven effective for me in the past 

You might discard what I'm saying as male entitlement, but actually I am serious to say if you REALLY want to curb his appetite for porn, then you MUST get involved with defining the alternatives.


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## ConcernedDad

I am a man and totally agree with you. Personally, I never understood the appeal of porn. Well, I do but despite what many think it just has never done anything for me. And I am 120% heterosexual. It doesn't come close to the physical intimacy a woman can offer. When my wife was alive she was all I needed and completely satisfied me and made me happy. 

I guess I am different than most guys in that I love the emotional aspect of a relationship as most women. Even the times when I was younger and went to strip clubs (only been twice) and got lap dances by beautiful women I can honestly say I was not at all aroused. And while I do greatly admire physical beauty, if there is no mental/emotional connection I just can't get into it no matter how physically attractive she may be.

I also agree that lots of porn watching can stunt a mans sex life, I have known plenty and it's quite sad.


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## SoWhat

To get back to the OP, and not necessarily the "porn" part of it:

Is it okay for your man to "check out" the hot 18 year old when you're not around (ie, he's not being openly disrespectful to you)?

That is, he's at the gas station and he sees a really shapely woman. He looks at her. Bad?


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## Starstarfish

SoWhat said:


> To get back to the OP, and not necessarily the "porn" part of it:
> 
> Is it okay for your man to "check out" the hot 18 year old when you're not around (ie, he's not being openly disrespectful to you)?
> 
> That is, he's at the gas station and he sees a really shapely woman. He looks at her. Bad?


So is something only disrespectful if it happens in front of you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SoWhat

Starstarfish said:


> So is something only disrespectful if it happens in front of you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Not necessarily. 
I have heard people describing their spouse checking out someone out in front of them as "disrespectful." If it's disrespectful in either case, cool. I'd like to know why.


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## Starstarfish

SoWhat said:


> Not necessarily.
> I have heard people describing their spouse checking out someone out in front of them as "disrespectful." If it's disrespectful in either case, cool. I'd like to know why.


I'm pretty sure it's not just "some people" but that it's widely viewed as rude and disrespectful to openly "check out" people in front of your spouse.

It's also disrespectful to your marriage to be "checking people out" to the degree someone else gets the clear idea you are interested.

Not sure the OP or anyone else needs to explain why that's the case. There's a difference between noticing someone and "checking them out."


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SoWhat

Starstarfish said:


> It's also disrespectful to your marriage to be "checking people out" to the degree someone else gets the clear idea you are interested.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Maybe it wasn't clear from what I posted - I don't mean "checking out" in a way that's visible to the person you're checking out.


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## turnera

What about being visible to your SPOUSE?


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## AVR1962

ConcernedDad said:


> I am a man and totally agree with you. Personally, I never understood the appeal of porn. Well, I do but despite what many think it just has never done anything for me. And I am 120% heterosexual. It doesn't come close to the physical intimacy a woman can offer. When my wife was alive she was all I needed and completely satisfied me and made me happy.
> 
> I guess I am different than most guys in that I love the emotional aspect of a relationship as most women. Even the times when I was younger and went to strip clubs (only been twice) and got lap dances by beautiful women I can honestly say I was not at all aroused. And while I do greatly admire physical beauty, if there is no mental/emotional connection I just can't get into it no matter how physically attractive she may be.
> 
> I also agree that lots of porn watching can stunt a mans sex life, I have known plenty and it's quite sad.


Good for you! Sounds like you are a genuinely grounded person. Yes, viewing porn is not only hard on the female and the marriage but it is not healthy for men either. This is fantasy material used to give sexual pleasure to the opposite sex. If the man is engaging sexual with the material instead of his wife this is a big issue and it would be considered cheating in my opinion. I think some men find porn as something males look at and I think some are able to look and like what they see but do not have to use it as masturbation material while others will find the simplicity with porn easier than an actual relationship with their wives. I think the latter probably were the males that used the material from a young age and never learned how to develop a real relationship with a female.


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## SoWhat

To be clear, I'm not a porn watcher anymore. I was never big into hardcore P-in-V (or whatever else) porn. I mostly looked at softcore stuff; just naked women. When I stopped masturbating to even that, I felt a whole lot better. I wrote a post about it here too.

Here's the rub (no pun intended) though: as a post-porn watcher, I notice a lot MORE women, sexually. I have a lot MORE sexual thoughts and in a lot less context-restricted manner. 

When you masturbate regularly, I think you associate sexual attraction/response with the masturbatory context and it weakens your sex drive elsewhere. I no longer associate erections with looking at nudie magazines. I no longer associate sexual arousal with sitting in front of the computer. 

And this is what I'm getting at with my "checking out" hypo. As a post-porn guy, I notice attractive women EVERYWHERE now. In the grocery store, at the gas station, walking down the street - it's like these women were invisible previously, but now are revealed. 

I have dirty dreams now - about my wife, mostly, but also about other women - whereas I'd NEVER had those when I masturbated regularly.

I have involuntary fantasies now (involuntary to the extent that I'm not consciously conjuring them up - they just spring into my mind, as it were). 

A girl in real life wearing a form-fitting dress is now just as provocative to me as a naked girl on the computer used to be. I don't have to undress her with my eyes or anything - a quick glance and BAM, the attraction is there. 

So, in many ways, I'm like the 15 year old version of me again. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, but I do think that people who complain about porn making them feel insecure need to recognize that this is a reality for a lot of guys who quit looking at the stuff. I love my wife, find her to be superduper attractive and now notice that attractiveness more than I did when I looked at porn. But I also notice other women more now too.


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## AVR1962

SoWhat said:


> To be clear, I'm not a porn watcher anymore. I was never big into hardcore P-in-V (or whatever else) porn. I mostly looked at softcore stuff; just naked women. When I stopped masturbating to even that, I felt a whole lot better. I wrote a post about it here too.
> 
> Here's the rub (no pun intended) though: as a post-porn watcher, I notice a lot MORE women, sexually. I have a lot MORE sexual thoughts and in a lot less context-restricted manner.
> 
> When you masturbate regularly, I think you associate sexual attraction/response with the masturbatory context and it weakens your sex drive elsewhere. I no longer associate erections with looking at nudie magazines. I no longer associate sexual arousal with sitting in front of the computer.
> 
> And this is what I'm getting at with my "checking out" hypo. As a post-porn guy, I notice attractive women EVERYWHERE now. In the grocery store, at the gas station, walking down the street - it's like these women were invisible previously, but now are revealed.
> 
> I have dirty dreams now - about my wife, mostly, but also about other women - whereas I'd NEVER had those when I masturbated regularly.
> 
> I have involuntary fantasies now (involuntary to the extent that I'm not consciously conjuring them up - they just spring into my mind, as it were).
> 
> A girl in real life wearing a form-fitting dress is now just as provocative to me as a naked girl on the computer used to be. I don't have to undress her with my eyes or anything - a quick glance and BAM, the attraction is there.
> 
> So, in many ways, I'm like the 15 year old version of me again. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, but I do think that people who complain about porn making them feel insecure need to recognize that this is a reality for a lot of guys who quit looking at the stuff. I love my wife, find her to be superduper attractive and now notice that attractiveness more than I did when I looked at porn. But I also notice other women more now too.


Thanks for your honesty!


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## TopsyTurvy5

AVR1962 said:


> Good for you! Sounds like you are a genuinely grounded person. Yes, viewing porn is not only hard on the female and the marriage but it is not healthy for men either. This is fantasy material used to give sexual pleasure to the opposite sex. If the man is engaging sexual with the material instead of his wife this is a big issue and it would be considered cheating in my opinion. I think some men find porn as something males look at and I think some are able to look and like what they see but do not have to use it as masturbation material while others will find the simplicity with porn easier than an actual relationship with their wives. I think the latter probably were the males that used the material from a young age and never learned how to develop a real relationship with a female.


And of course you feel the same about women fantasizing during sex and using a vibrator or dildo.


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## Marduk

turnera said:


> What about being visible to your SPOUSE?


I check out women openly in front of my wife. Respectfully, not gawking or being an idiot about it. But yes, looking, and yes, admitting that she's hot.

I was terrified to do so, but it's done nothing but wonders for opening up and releasing positive energy in our marriage and in me personally.

Of course sometimes she gets annoyed. And of course, so do I when she does the same.

But I've also learned a lot about what kinds of dudes she's attracted to and she's learned a lot about what attracts me.

It's been an amazing experience, frankly.

Listen to this:
David Bollt - Is it Wrong to Check Out Women? The New Man Podcast
How to Admire Women Without Being Creepy
EYE OPENING. 100% recommended.


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## turnera

We do the same. In fact, we tease each other about it. He jokes about some PYT and I say 'go ahead, see if she'll have you.' We both know he won't, and we both feel good that neither of us is getting our pants in a bunch over something we know isn't real.


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