# Having a hard time dealing with everything



## Coping the Best I Can

Long time listener, first time caller.

I'll keep the details as focused as I can. The real reason for posting here is partly to vent, and partly to ask for everyone's support. My wife had a PA a long time ago that we have been dealing with for many years. We have finally found the right MC and have been working with that person for a while. After several one-on-one sessions with him, he and I agreed it's time for the truth to come out about what exactly happened in the affair. She's been hiding it for a long time and I know much more went on than she has tried to make me believe. We're at the point now that she basically will not discuss difficult topics unless we're in the presence of the MC. 

I'm at the point now that I need to know the truth, and I need to hear her tell me the truth. All of it. All the gory details. MC asked why I need to know. I told him it's not so much that I am trying to satisfy my erotic fantasies or anything like that. I need the mind movies that have been going on to stop. I feel that I'd be better off knowing exactly what happened than imagining what I think happened. And she needs to let it out to set herself free of what she's been holding, and finally ask for forgiveness the right way.

One of the main reasons I know why she got sexual with him is because at one point during the affair, before D-Day, we were in bed and she suggested a position that we had never done before. She called it by a specific name. I played along but thought it was very strange that such an elaborate position she seemed to know so well, yet we never did it before. A week later, we're in bed getting things going, and I played dumb and asked about that position we did the week before. Her eyes lit up and she jumped up and was all about doing it, and she knew exactly what to do, telling me where to go, how to position myself, etc. I immediately knew at that point that something was up. One of the many mind movies I have is of her doing that position with him.

There's plenty of other evidence, like coming home and immediately taking a shower (something she never did), and _always_ answering her cell phone out of breath. I can go on....

I know her well enough that she doesn't do anything halfway, and we don't ever use protection because we don't have to (hysterectomy). I'm more than confident she took that same approach with him.

I hid a lot of these mind movies for a while but after the last few MC sessions, they've all come back to me, and I'm going insane. I guess what bothers me the most is not what they did (which I assume is everything), but the emotion she put into it. She's very escapist - lost in a fantasy world most of the time. She used sex to get what she thought she needed emotionally, and she let herself _feel_ in love so she could pretend to make love to him. The mental imagery of seeing her looking at him lovingly, caressing him, wrapping her legs around him, all while telling him she loves him (which she admitted)... this is just killing me. 

Next MC session will be the three of us and while she's not aware of it, this will finally be brought up. I am trying to keep sane until that time, but I really don't know how either of us will react when she finally opens up. This is the last ditch effort before I decide on D. If she can't open up completely, then there's no hope.

I really need your support, and I welcome everyone's thoughts. I'm only describing one part of a very big issue, but this is what's keeping me up at night right now. 

Thanks in advance.


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## Tron

You have a right to know.

Question is, if she doesn't give it all up what are you going to do about it?


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## Graywolf2

Just so people will have the proper background to answer you please give some general details. Such as how long was her affair, when was it discovered and how. Did she blame you? How has she acted since D-day?

Sometimes more information hurts and sometimes it helps. Only you can be the judge of that. The correct thing to do is whatever is best for you.


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## Coping the Best I Can

Tron said:


> You have a right to know.
> 
> Question is, if she doesn't give it all up what are you going to do about it?


If she deliberately holds back and gets defensive in front of the MC then at this point I will have to tell her that it's time to move on. This has been going on for longer than I'd like to admit. But, I know that if she lets go it will be very freeing for her. She has held a lot of her past in and this will be one huge step to help.


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## Coping the Best I Can

f


Graywolf2 said:


> Just so people will have the proper background to answer you please give some general details. Such as how long was her affair, when was it discovered and how. Did she blame you? How has she acted since D-day?
> 
> Sometimes more information hurts and sometimes it helps. Only you can be the judge of that. The correct thing to do is whatever is best for you.


Affair was 3 months long. It started 13 years ago right around Thanksgiving and I was suspicious by the beginning of December. I found a journal in her bathroom that she wrote in the form of letters to him. Talk about how bad a husband I was, how she was going to separate from me to be with him, etc. I don't remember any sexual details in the journal though. 

At the time she said that although it was wrong, she felt justified, and insisted that I knew that. We've been in counselling and she has expressed remorse and regret over the years, but she still keeps the intimate details to herself, insisting that nothing more than heavy petting went on. I know better. You don't string a 42 year old guy around for 3 months with kisses and heavy petting.


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## Melrose8888

Coping the Best I Can said:


> f
> 
> We've been in counselling and she has expressed remorse and regret over the years, but she still keeps the intimate details to herself, insisting that nothing more than heavy petting went on. I know better. You don't string a 42 year old guy around for 3 months with kisses and heavy petting.


Although the sex position request seems pretty damning in this case, and most cheaters gaslight, some guys, especially at that age, might not be as high drive and instead are after infatuation, to be adored, seeking admiration instead (possibly as this is missing in their marriage / relationship). So although it likely was more than heavy petting, it might not have been.


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## Graywolf2

Coping the Best I Can said:


> This is the last ditch effort before I decide on D. If she can't open up completely, then there's no hope.


The problem your wife has is that she has no idea what detail will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. She may use the excuse that she doesn’t want to hurt you but that’s secondary. 

I would rephrase what you said above. That you are getting a divorce for sure and only honesty can save the marriage. Basically that the marriage is lost and what she tells you might save it vs the marriage is safe and what she tells you might end it.



Coping the Best I Can said:


> Talk about how bad a husband I was, how she was going to separate from me to be with him, etc.


If you suck why does she want you now? Where is this great OM that she wanted a life with?


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## Coping the Best I Can

Melrose8888 said:


> Although the sex position request seems pretty damning in this case, and most cheaters gaslight, some guys, especially at that age, might not be as high drive and instead are after infatuation, to be adored, seeking admiration instead (possibly as this is missing in their marriage / relationship). So although it likely was more than heavy petting, it might not have been.


She has a history of sexual abuse. Part of her coping after a rape during college was going boy crazy. In her own words, she was trying to "replace the violence with something that resembled love and affection". That was many years before I met her and I was too naive at the time to get up and walk away. We've been together 19 years. I care about this woman, but I can't deny the anger inside me.

I say all that because while she won't admit it, sex and lovemaking is incredibly important to her. She uses it as a tool to get the emotions she needs, even if those emotions are fake. 

After an argument we had, she met with him (he was a mutual friend of ours), and she started crying to him about me. She said he offered her a hug, and she took it from there. Her exact words were "I attacked him." She told me at first he resisted but then finally gave in. The rest is history.


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## Coping the Best I Can

Graywolf2 said:


> The problem your wife has is that she has no idea what detail will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. She may use the excuse that she doesn’t want to hurt you but that’s secondary.




You're right. Another excuse is she wants to keep whatever perceived good memory to herself.





> I would rephrase what you said above. That you are getting a divorce for sure and only honesty can save the marriage. Basically that the marriage is lost and what she tells you might save it vs the marriage is safe and what she tells you might end it.



Thank you Graywolf. I needed to hear that, because really that's where we're at, although she doesn't know that yet. Basically she thinks if we keep the peace at home and not get into sticky subjects, then life can go on. I've lost the ability to deal with it that way anymore.


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## Coping the Best I Can

Graywolf2 said:


> If you suck why does she want you now? Where is this great OM that she wanted a life with?



It was all to perpetuate a fantasy that she let herself live in. He's out of the picture now, although several years after the fact she found his business card on her car. She showed it to me, and for the first time she expressed genuine remorse. She also said "I know what happened, and I know what I did with him, but I still can't believe I actually did." I held back from asking her what exactly did she do with him because she was opening up and I didn't want her to clam up.

He was way below her standards and she knew it.


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## _anonymous_

Sorry to hear of your struggle, OP. If after 13 years you're still working through this, you must be deeply hurting.

I remember when I was cheated on by my ex-gf of several years, and it hurt badly. I, too, was imagining what she did with others, supposed friends that I had met at parties with her, which may have ended up in bed with her, while we were engaged! I didn't have all of the details about with whom she had been cheating on me with and when, but nonetheless, I would imagine it. Drove me crazy.

I finally realized that if I couldn't move beyond what had happened, and if I didn't stop trying to approximate full closure with only half the facts, I would spend time and energies in a way that was wholly unproductive today and made me no better tomorrow. 

By mulling over the situation more, I couldn't erase the past, feel any better in the present, or improve my future. Peace came to me when I stopped dwelling on a very negative moment in my life, and I hope you can find the means to put this behind you. Good luck!


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## chillymorn69

its a lose lose situation. 

your having trouble getting past it because you don't really trust her. and the mid moves in your head are troubling you so how the hell is knowing she had great sex with someone else and the details of that going to help you get past it. 

either forgive her or make an exit plan.


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## 86857

The problem for me would not be what they did - it would be the fact that I was still being lied to after 13 years. 
The "I love you' 3 months in I would take as nothing more than infatuation/lust.
I wouldn't believe the heavy petting either given what you've said happened at the time between you two and the fact that she said 'she attacked him.'

In short, I'd feel that I was being taken for a fool, by my life partner of all people.
How can anyone trust a person they know is lying to them. A marriage can never be healthy without trust.

The first thing that must and should happen in R is full disclosure - some BS don't want it but the vast majority, including you, do.
So, you haven't had a proper R right from the beginning. Many MCs don't agree with this. If yours doesn't, get another MC.

I'd tell her that by not disclosing, she's going to destroy the marriage because without it there is no R. 
Add that the truth might be hard to tell, but she must know you've assumed the worst these past 13 years anyway, as BS always do. 
Tell her that as a BS, you have every right to ask, and as a WS it's the least she owes you for what she put you through. 

Finally, tell her to stop disrespecting you and taking you for a fool by lying to you, because lying by non-disclosure is . . . lying. 

Stand up for yourself this time, be firm and clear and don't take 'no' for an answer. 
That said, if she does disclose, when you hear it from the horse's mouth, you may want to leave the marriage. 
That is exactly why full disclosure should have happened 13 years ago so you could decide to R or not. 

I'm so sorry you have struggled with this for so long. 
Good luck with the MC session.


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## Coping the Best I Can

chillymorn69 said:


> its a lose lose situation.
> 
> your having trouble getting past it because you don't really trust her. and the mid moves in your head are troubling you so how the hell is knowing she had great sex with someone else and the details of that going to help you get past it.
> 
> either forgive her or make an exit plan.



I'm having more of a hard time getting past the fact that she's still hiding it than what exactly happened. That being said, if she does open up at the next MC session, I don't know how I'll react. But I still think that hearing the truth will be more beneficial in the end if R is even possible.

If I hear her say "I did x, y and z, and I'm sorry, and I feel horrible about it, please forgive me" then yes, I can forgive her. I know it will take time to process everything, but I can still forgive. If I can't get that from her even in front of a MC, then it's time to end it. I guess I'm trying to prepare myself for both situations.


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## Coping the Best I Can

********** said:


> The first thing that must and should happen in R is full disclosure - some BS don't want it but the vast majority, including you, do. So, you haven't had a proper R right from the beginning. Many MCs don't agree with this. If yours doesn't, get another MC.


He agrees. He just wants to make sure I am asking for full disclosure for the right reasons, and not to perpetuate the movies in my head, which, as painful as they are, are also very erotic.

What I'm also preparing for is a fight. I'm going to have to call her out on what I know, and she'll have to answer to it in front of the MC. I'm expecting her to try to get out of it. Her telltale response when she's lying at home is first getting angry, then crying. I don't know how she'll react with another person in the room.


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## Herschel

I don't think this will help you. After 13 years, I don't think anything will help you. If she says that they did all sorts of kinky stuff and she climaxed 40 times and thought about him with you...how does that closure help you.

I think it's impossible to ever get past any affair. It's not the trust that stays broken, it's the heart. It's up to you if you want to continue to live with someone who did that to you in any circumstance.


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## VladDracul

Coping the Best I Can said:


> I'm expecting her to try to get out of it. Her telltale response when she's lying at home is first getting angry, then crying. I don't know how she'll react with another person in the room.


The problem with wanting to know "all the details" is that you can never know if you've got all the details. A good question rather than, or in addition to, what are the details is "why did you decide to cheat on me to begin with?" For some reason many men never really ask that and probably more WW hope its never ask.


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## Coping the Best I Can

Herschel said:


> I don't think this will help you. After 13 years, I don't think anything will help you. If she says that they did all sorts of kinky stuff and she climaxed 40 times and thought about him with you...how does that closure help you.
> 
> I think it's impossible to ever get past any affair. It's not the trust that stays broken, it's the heart. It's up to you if you want to continue to live with someone who did that to you in any circumstance.


I don't want the porn version. What I really want to hear is "yes, I had an ongoing sexual relationship with the man." I also want to know if he used protection. Not for the STDs (we've both been tested), but I want to know if she opened herself up that much physically and emotionally to let him do that. I also want to know if the sex position she proposed to me was something she did with him. I need to hear that so I know I'm not completely crazy.

If she divulges more, I'll let her talk until I can't handle any more, but no, it's not about making another porn movie in my head starring my wife and the OM.

I still believe the more she opens up the better she'll be in the end. Experience has taught me that telling the truth can be very freeing.


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## Coping the Best I Can

VladDracul said:


> The problem with wanting to know "all the details" is that you can never know if you've got all the details. A good question rather than, or in addition to, what are the details is "why did you decide to cheat on me to begin with?" For some reason many men never really ask that and probably more WW hope its never ask.


Good point. And I know the reason why she decided to cheat. Her history of abuse made her afraid of me. I know it's common in abuse victims to fear their spouse because they're the closest person to them. That's one of the many things she has stuffed away and never dealt with. It still doesn't excuse what she did.


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## honcho

Coping the Best I Can said:


> I don't want the porn version. What I really want to hear is "yes, I had an ongoing sexual relationship with the man." I also want to know if he used protection. Not for the STDs (we've both been tested), but I want to know if she opened herself up that much physically and emotionally to let him do that. I also want to know if the sex position she proposed to me was something she did with him. I need to hear that so I know I'm not completely crazy.
> 
> If she divulges more, I'll let her talk until I can't handle any more, but no, it's not about making another porn movie in my head starring my wife and the OM.
> 
> I still believe the more she opens up the better she'll be in the end. Experience has taught me that telling the truth can be very freeing.


She has stuck to the "we just kissed" story for 13 years and it's worked in her mind for all this time, your still married. Trickle truth and less than full disclosure is one of the biggest obstacles to overcome. What will you do if she finally divulges they had sex but only once which is usually the next step in the trickle truth game and she says she can't remember if they used protection which again is highly unlikely they used any. 

The truth can be freeing, no denying that but when a person lives with a secret this long and fear her entire world may be turned upside down with that truth the best your gonna get is maybe some trickle truth in my opinion.

You've been deal with these thoughts for 13 years now. What is going on in the relationship in here and now that's triggering this?


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## Coping the Best I Can

honcho said:


> She has stuck to the "we just kissed" story for 13 years and it's worked in her mind for all this time, your still married. Trickle truth and less than full disclosure is one of the biggest obstacles to overcome. What will you do if she finally divulges they had sex but only once which is usually the next step in the trickle truth game and she says she can't remember if they used protection which again is highly unlikely they used any.


I really don't know yet. I will say this - history has shown that I am always right when I know she's lying and the truth eventually comes out. I'll let her know that the TT has to stop if she wants the marriage to continue. We'll see what happens after that. She also has to prepare for the fact that I'm going to have more questions as I process everything. She avoids my questions because it's reliving the moment to her. 



honcho said:


> The truth can be freeing, no denying that but when a person lives with a secret this long and fear her entire world may be turned upside down with that truth the best your gonna get is maybe some trickle truth in my opinion.


You're probably right, but I have to try.



honcho said:


> You've been deal with these thoughts for 13 years now. What is going on in the relationship in here and now that's triggering this?


Progress in the MC. But also other issues. Her health has gotten bad and she's been more and more depressed. When she's depressed she lies more because she's afraid of how I'll react to what's really going on. Finally I opened up to the MC about everything that I'm going through and he said she has to let go, and agreed to help her open up in the next session.


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## Evinrude58

Melrose8888 said:


> Although the sex position request seems pretty damning in this case, and most cheaters gaslight, some guys, especially at that age, might not be as high drive and instead are after infatuation, to be adored, seeking admiration instead (possibly as this is missing in their marriage / relationship). So although it likely was more than heavy petting, it might not have been.


Melrose...... please, bro. You have got to know better than this


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## sokillme

Coping the Best I Can said:


> I don't want the porn version. What I really want to hear is "yes, I had an ongoing sexual relationship with the man." I also want to know if he used protection. Not for the STDs (we've both been tested), but I want to know if she opened herself up that much physically and emotionally to let him do that. I also want to know if the sex position she proposed to me was something she did with him. I need to hear that so I know I'm not completely crazy.
> 
> If she divulges more, I'll let her talk until I can't handle any more, but no, it's not about making another porn movie in my head starring my wife and the OM.
> 
> I still believe the more she opens up the better she'll be in the end. Experience has taught me that telling the truth can be very freeing.


And what if she did open herself up more. Then what will you do? Do you think this will heal you in some way?


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## TX-SC

In my humble opinion, your best option is a simple, "Yes, I had sex with him x amount of times." then leave it at that. Getting fine details after 13 years is a bit much. Asking about protection is also okay. But, don't get any more detailed than that. 

13 years is a LOOOONG time to stew over something. If you have not forgiven and moved along by now, I doubt you will be able too. You owe it to yourself to simply lay it on the line. Tell her you will let it drop once she finally tells the truth. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## Coping the Best I Can

sokillme said:


> And what if she did open herself up more. Then what will you do? Do you think this will heal you in some way?


I'm still trying to prepare for what I may hear. But to answer your question - no, whatever gory details she reveals will not be easy to hear or to process. The fact that she opened up will be the healing part for me. 

On D-Day, she was very quick to let me know that "there was some physical expression." I know she said it to make me feel bad. though all she claimed was he had his hand down her pants and up her shirt, and that she "felt him through his jeans." I didn't buy it. Especially when later on that night she ended up saying "he wasn't that big." My next question was "how would you know if all you did was feel him through his jeans?" She didn't answer.

I've read these forms enough to know that sometimes affair sex can be crazier than what you'd expect because of the excitement of everything. I get that. If that's what I end up hearing, then I'll have to deal with it. I just want the truth even it it hurts to hear it. If that ends up breaking the marriage, at least I won't wonder any more.


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## Coping the Best I Can

TX-SC said:


> In my humble opinion, your best option is a simple, "Yes, I had sex with him x amount of times." then leave it at that. Getting fine details after 13 years is a bit much. Asking about protection is also okay. But, don't get any more detailed than that.


Really, that's all I want. 



TX-SC said:


> 13 years is a LOOOONG time to stew over something. If you have not forgiven and moved along by now, I doubt you will be able too. You owe it to yourself to simply lay it on the line. Tell her you will let it drop once she finally tells the truth.


I have forgiven her to the extent that she's been able to show remorse. When she holds on to something as important as consummating the affair, it's hard to fully forgive. She hasn't shown remorse for the rest because she hasn't owned up to it. But I'm willing to forgive and I _want_ to forgive her if she would stop hiding that one, very important part.


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## sokillme

Have you thought of what you would do if this doesn't bring you the closure you are looking for? What if there is no closer because the problem is not what she did but how you feel about staying. 

This may not be you, so do with it what you will, but I suspect this is really the disconnect for lots of BS who are in the kind of pain like this post reflects. Coming to terms with what the life they have chosen. Not with what their spouse did, I think they get that because logically there is not much to get, they were just selfish. Yet they don't heal. 

I think the loss of agency in ones own life is what cause the constant searching. I believe it is the loss of control of the narrative of their own life which causes them to continue to try to regain the control by trying to figure out why and what. Like if they can just figure out the secret it will fix this and give them back control. But it's really just an illusion. I always get a sense of powerlessness in posts similar to this. But the powerlessness doesn't just come from the affair in my opinion, it comes from the feelings of having lost agency because they are trying to have two things. The kind of marriage they once romanticized having with their spouse, which is a dream forever lost. And their spouse. You can't have both. 

I wonder if the answer is just accepting that you will never have the faithful wife you expected to have, and what is done is done. In a sense that is the greatest rug sweep, thinking that somehow you can.


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## TheTruthHurts

Maybe you should print out divorce papers and have them ready. If you're serious then that's actually your next step if she can't be honest. Then present them with the MC and say our next session should be about the resolution of our marriage 


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## Coping the Best I Can

sokillme said:


> Have you thought of what you would do if this doesn't bring you the closure you are looking for? What if there is no closer because the problem is not what she did but how you feel about staying.
> 
> This may not be you, so do with it what you will, but I suspect this is really the disconnect for lots of BS who are in the kind of pain like this post reflects. Coming to terms with what the life they have chosen. Not with what their spouse did, I think they get that because logically there is not much to get, they were just selfish. Yet they don't heal.


The thought of leaving her is very tempting, just because I'd be able to live my life without the constant question of "what else is going on that I don't know about." This is what I can't handle any more. But then my own personal beliefs and values kick in and the cognitive dissonance comes out in full force. The idea that I married for life and she's broken and it's my job as her husband to help her though it. 



sokillme said:


> I think the loss of agency in ones own life is what cause the constant searching. I believe it is the loss of control of the narrative of their own life which causes them to continue to try to regain the control by trying to figure out why and what. Like if they can just figure out the secret it will fix this and give them back control. But it's really just an illusion. I always get a sense of powerlessness in posts similar to this. But the powerlessness doesn't just come from the affair in my opinion, it comes from the feelings of having lost agency because they are trying to have two things. The kind of marriage they once romanticized having with their spouse, which is a dream forever lost. And their spouse. You can't have both.
> 
> I wonder if the answer is just accepting that you will never have the faithful wife you expected to have, and what is done is done. In a sense that is the greatest rug sweep, thinking that somehow you can.


That would be the ultimate denial to my own well being. All in the name of love.


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## TAMAT

Coping,

You have a right to know everything,, one problem is that the OM and your WW have secrets between them that you are not privy to. The intimacy between the OM and WW which excludes you must come to an end. You WW is lying by omission to you still and she knows it.

It very much matters if the OM and your WW did something she never did with you. It very much matters if your WW had passion for the OM she never had for you before or since. These are legitimate questions which your WW should be willing to tell you.

Have your WW write out a timeline of all the details of the affair, then review them and take her to get a polygraph test.

Most of us can come to grips once we have been given the truth. The ultimate thing she can do to make up for her affair is to tell you the truth.

You may need to DNA your children.

I see three main paths here.

1)	stay with your WW with no confession, misery for the rest of your life

2)	divorce your WW

3)	stay with your WW after getting a confession and accepting that you have the detail you need.

Tamat


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## Tatsuhiko

You're her husband, but she broke that contract. At that point you had no obligation to provide the support that a husband should.

That being said, I'm sensing that she needs some reassurance from you in order to make her confession--some sign that you'll stay with her even if the details are very ugly. Maybe you cannot provide that. I think I would find that difficult as well.


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## goingsolo12

@Coping the Best I Can

I totally support your decision to find the truth, you deserve it and indeed it will set you and your wife free. Not knowing the truth has affected your healing, for 13 years you have carried this burden and now its important that you let go of it.
To be honest your wife broke all the sacred vows she made to you, she had an affair, destroyed you emotionally, this affected your health, your mental stability, exposed you to STDs etc etc. She was having an open marriage behind your back. The contract of marriage was violated a long time ago, you don't owe her anything to be honest. Its time you made yourself a priority

Yes your wife has bad coping skills,she is broken, yes she needs help but you need help too. Its time you became selfish , the last 13 years you suffered. Is this what marriage is all about? Letting your spouse suffer? I am sure your wife showed a lot of remorse but its for a mistake she committed, what was your fault? Nothing, you were collateral damage. This is unfair to you.

Your wife owes you the truth, to be honest if after 13 years she cannot tell you the truth then she is still being selfish. Her guilt and shame is more important for her than your healing. She is still protecting herself. She is still betraying you, this time by not allowing you to heal. I don't know what decision you will take but I pray you heal with or without your wife.

All the best.


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## MattMatt

Coping the Best I Can said:


> She has a history of sexual abuse. Part of her coping after a rape during college was going boy crazy. In her own words, she was trying to "replace the violence with something that resembled love and affection". That was many years before I met her and I was too naive at the time to get up and walk away. We've been together 19 years. I care about this woman, but I can't deny the anger inside me.
> 
> I say all that because while she won't admit it, sex and lovemaking is incredibly important to her. She uses it as a tool to get the emotions she needs, even if those emotions are fake.
> 
> After an argument we had, she met with him (he was a mutual friend of ours), and she started crying to him about me. She said he offered her a hug, and she took it from there. Her exact words were "I attacked him." She told me at first he resisted but then finally gave in. The rest is history.


Oh. She "attacked" him? So she forced herself on him?

Wad she trying to reverse the rape on her in some way by using him?

Bring this up with the MC.

Also if she refuses to give you what you need at the MC session have some model divorce papers ready to present to her in front of the MC and say "this is it. Your last chance to come clean." Buy if you do that you have to mean it.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Coping the Best I Can said:


> I've read these forms enough to know that sometimes affair sex can be crazier than what you'd expect because of the excitement of everything. I get that. If that's what I end up hearing, then I'll have to deal with it. I just want the truth even it it hurts to hear it. If that ends up breaking the marriage, at least I won't wonder any more.


Not necesarily bro, i think that gets hyped a lot. Most people that dont know each other really well are unlikely to have deep passionate sex, its more likely they found excitement on the forbidden part and sneaking around instead.

Does your W have a deep sexual connection with you? Does she try out anything you want to try and does she make you feel like you are the best man ever? Does she seek sex instead of you? If not then she aint doing it right.....hence your issues.


----------



## Edmund

If I was her I would divorce you. People make mistakes. If you can't forgive and forget after 13 years, you never will. And it hasn't been repeated in 13 years. She shouldn't have this hanging over her head forever. You should have D back when it happened if it is this bad for you. Let her go.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Edmund said:


> If I was her I would divorce you. People make mistakes. If you can't forgive and forget after 13 years, you never will. And it hasn't been repeated in 13 years. She shouldn't have this hanging over her head forever. You should have D back when it happened if it is this bad for you. Let her go.


Whatever you do, OP, ignore this horrible advice. This poster seems to think that rugsweeping works if you just give it enough time. No, these things need to be brought out into the light of day, hashed over until they are properly dealt with. Yes, people make mistakes. And adults are then held accountable for those mistakes, and must make restitution.


----------



## SunCMars

Edmund said:


> If I was her I would divorce you. People make mistakes. If you can't forgive and forget after 13 years, you never will. And it hasn't been repeated in 13 years. She shouldn't have this hanging over her head forever. You should have D back when it happened if it is this bad for you. Let her go.


Huh?

Wow!

It someone took advantage of your daughter, would you "get over it"? Get over it, ever?

He does not get over it because he gives a damn, has feelings, is not a potato.

She has earned his response, because she had gaslighted him for all those years.


----------



## MattMatt

Edmund said:


> If I was her I would divorce you. People make mistakes. If you can't forgive and forget after 13 years, you never will. And it hasn't been repeated in 13 years. She shouldn't have this hanging over her head forever. You should have D back when it happened if it is this bad for you. Let her go.


Mistake. To accidentally add too much salt to the stew. Easily corrected by adding a raw potato into the stew to soak up the extra salt, the potato is then thrown out. 

Mistake. To have an affair over a long period of time, having sex multiple times with someone other than your spouse. Easily corrected by... oh... there's no easy fix for that, is there, @Edmund?


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

Tatsuhiko said:


> You're her husband, but she broke that contract. At that point you had no obligation to provide the support that a husband should.
> 
> That being said, I'm sensing that she needs some reassurance from you in order to make her confession--some sign that you'll stay with her even if the details are very ugly. Maybe you cannot provide that. I think I would find that difficult as well.


Right now I think I can provide that reassurance. What I intend to tell her is if she could open up then R may be possible, but if she can't then there's no chance any more. 

I'm also preparing for the possibility of forgiving her but still moving on. I may have to, but I really want to forgive her first.


----------



## seeking freedom

from one cheated on husband to another...life is to short. Time to move on regardless.
We are around the same age and it took me a long time to to come to the realization that I deserved better. That once a cheater always a cheater (to some extent anyway), once a liar always a liar.
It is terrible what happened to her but she is a grown ass woman who needs to deal with her issues like an adult and should have had enough respect for you and the marriage to keep her pants on.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but this is what I wish someone had told me a long time ago.
Good luck and live life for you and your well being.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

MattMatt said:


> Oh. She "attacked" him? So she forced herself on him?


I think what she meant was she threw herself at him passionately. If it happened the way I imagined it, she was probably in his truck going or coming from the park (the three of us and sometimes a relative of his all used to ride bikes together). She probably ended up at his place or renting a room somewhere.


----------



## goingsolo12

Edmund said:


> If I was her I would divorce you. People make mistakes. If you can't forgive and forget after 13 years, you never will. And it hasn't been repeated in 13 years. She shouldn't have this hanging over her head forever. You should have D back when it happened if it is this bad for you. Let her go.


 @Edmund

The OP hasn't healed at all, would you forgive someone who shot you in your back multiple times? Now lets consider that this person was someone very close to you, a loved one, lets say your dad or your mum. How would you feel? In OPs case it was his wife, he trusted her, protected her and instead she shot him in the back by having affairs.

*When will the threats of divorce stop from OP? When he heals completely, he is still hurting.*

*How will he heal?*
There are two ways,First he can detach from her and begin healing himself which will be via divorce.In this case he would be responsible for his own healing.
In the second case he is not willing to divorce and has given his wife another chance, in this scenario his healing is not his own, he cannot heal himself without his wife playing a major role in it. He has to see her everyday, be intimate with her. He just cannot heal himself without the help of his wife. The OPs wife has not participated in his healing .

Here is an example, lets say you were shot by a person and you have to live with that person on a daily basis, have dinner with him, sleep in the same room etc etc. You would live under constant fear that you are gonna get shot again, can you live with that doubt?Imagine the pain the OP went through for 13 years through this example For you to heal the person who shot you has to move mountains, reassure you that it will never happen again, lay bare his entire self in front of you and you still won't trust him. This is how the OP feels. 

All the best.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

CantBelieveThis said:


> Does your W have a deep sexual connection with you? Does she try out anything you want to try and does she make you feel like you are the best man ever? Does she seek sex instead of you? If not then she aint doing it right.....hence your issues.


Our sex life has waned down to nothing. It was fine for a few years after the affair, but then it started to dwindle. We haven't been intimate in 3 years, and before that it was less than a dozen times a year. When it was good it was great - felt very connected and loved and felt like a king. But after a while she became very apathetic towards sex and lovemaking until it just stopped. I noticed towards the end she became very stressed about the idea of it all, and she would either put me off or have to make sure everything was picture perfect to go there, and even then she would still be hesitant.

Right now her health is a big factor for no intimacy, and I can't blame her for that. She claims she would go there and wants to. I don't believe it, because even the little bits of affection (hugs, etc) are missing or seem forced. Deep down she knows something is wrong but won't make light of it.


----------



## naiveonedave

Coping the Best I Can said:


> Our sex life has waned down to nothing. It was fine for a few years after the affair, but then it started to dwindle. We haven't been intimate in 3 years, and before that it was less than a dozen times a year. When it was good it was great - felt very connected and loved and felt like a king. But after a while she became very apathetic towards sex and lovemaking until it just stopped. I noticed towards the end she became very stressed about the idea of it all, and she would either put me off or have to make sure everything was picture perfect to go there, and even then she would still be hesitant.


I would have a hard time being married to someone who cheated on me and denied sex to that extent. I am surprised you haven't bailed long ago. No real advice, other than you have way more than enough to justify D. She didn't forsake others and she is failing miserably on the to have and to hold part. Good Luck, Coping, you need it.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Coping the Best I Can said:


> Our sex life has waned down to nothing. It was fine for a few years after the affair, but then it started to dwindle. We haven't been intimate in 3 years, and before that it was less than a dozen times a year. When it was good it was great - felt very connected and loved and felt like a king. But after a while she became very apathetic towards sex and lovemaking until it just stopped. I noticed towards the end she became very stressed about the idea of it all, and she would either put me off or have to make sure everything was picture perfect to go there, and even then she would still be hesitant.


I didn't know this detail. You deserve better. Personally, I couldn't deal with a wife who "attacked" another man passionately, but could only show me apathy. Is she really going to come back from this and be a wife again? Are you happy being just roommates for the rest of your lives together? Does she just see you as a paycheck? Does the MC know this and find the status quo acceptable?

Your wife seems to have no concept of what you need, nor any desire to improve herself for your benefit.


----------



## harrybrown

I do like the idea of the written timeline and then the Polly.

And be sure to bring up that what she gave away so freely, she is denying you.

One way out of pain is the D because she told him she loved him and now she is telling you by her actions that she does not
care or love you. No sex and previously pity sex? 

And she won't help you with the pain by continuing to l treat you rotten for the last 13 plus years?

why do you want to stay? stop the counseling and go for the D.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

Tatsuhiko said:


> I didn't know this detail. You deserve better. Personally, I couldn't deal with a wife who "attacked" another man passionately, but could only show me apathy.


During the A she was incredibly sexually charged, more than I've ever seen her. For example, I'd end up going to bed and I could hear her in the living room masturbating - something she never used to do, at least not regularly. She would have sexual dreams, moaning in her sleep and gyrating her hips. All these things started me thinking something was wrong. The apathy started several years after the A. She also started to gain weight - a lot of it, hence her health problems.



Tatsuhiko said:


> Your wife seems to have no concept of what you need, nor any desire to improve herself for your benefit.



That's where we're at right now. The ultimatum will be "help yourself or we're done." And the first step is to stop hiding everything.


----------



## sokillme

Edmund said:


> If I was her I would divorce you. People make mistakes. If you can't forgive and forget after 13 years, you never will. And it hasn't been repeated in 13 years. She shouldn't have this hanging over her head forever. You should have D back when it happened if it is this bad for you. Let her go.


She's probably knows that her prospects aren't high.

She probably knows she is not every man's dream now. And guys will not be lining up.


----------



## becareful2

What did she weigh before and after her A?


----------



## Decorum

There is NO statute of limitations of when a betrayed spouse can decide reconciliation will not work and move on.

None whatsoever.

Chumplady has a post on this I like.

https://www.chumplady.com/2014/12/dear-chump-lady-statute-limitations-chump-thing/


----------



## SunCMars

Coping the Best I Can said:


> Right now I think I can provide that reassurance. What I intend to tell her is if she could open up then R may be possible, but if she can't then there's no chance any more.
> 
> *I'm also preparing for the possibility of forgiving her but still moving on. I may have to, but I really want to forgive her first.*


Is Coping's going back and forth, flip-flopping? 

Yes, no, maybe....not.

No, not at all. 

It is all in the presentation. The sorry mess and how it is presented.* How she lays it on his plate.*

If she reaches down low picks up the mess and slops it in his plate and says, "THERE, you have it all"... "so sorry"..... THIS Crow ain't gonna fly. 

Coping needs a neat and tidy outline.......followed by a SINCERE apology. And Sorry for not coming clean, right away. 

I believe that will suffice.


----------



## SunCMars

becareful2 said:


> What did she weigh before and after her A?


Ahhh, the long knives!

I am telling ya, when God made women, all of them are good. They have the stuff.

Little ones, middle size, large ones. 

OK, there is a limit. 

She is not there.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

SunCMars said:


> Is Coping's going back and forth, flip-flopping?
> 
> Yes, no, maybe....not.
> 
> No, not at all.
> 
> It is all in the presentation. The sorry mess and how it is presented.* How she lays it on his plate.*
> 
> If she reaches down low picks up the mess and slops it in his plate and says, "THERE, you have it all"... "so sorry"..... THIS Crow ain't gonna fly.
> 
> Coping needs a neat and tidy outline.......followed by a SINCERE apology. And Sorry for not coming clean, right away.
> 
> I believe that will suffice.



It's also in the presentation from my (and MC's) end. One way or another, she's going to feel like she's being backed into a corner, because, well, she's being backed into a corner. I'll have to call her out on stuff and she's going to have to answer not only to me, but to MC, and we'll both will know if she's creating a story. It will really depend if she comes clean and is sincere about it.


----------



## AtMyEnd

> Basically she thinks if we keep the peace at home and not get into sticky subjects, then life can go on. I've lost the ability to deal with it that way anymore.


This is exactly my wife's point of view on things right now. My situation is different but very similar. I caught my wife about a year ago texting with another man all day every day. My mistake was that I confronted her about it to so, all I had as evidence was the text log from her phone. She told me it was nothing, just another attorney that she knew who gave her advice on work related things and they became friends and texted about work things, family and life in general. I didn't really buy it but I had nothing else to go on, the texting stopped and it pretty much got swept under the rug.

Fast forward to this past February, I found a suggestive text from a different man on my wife's phone. As much as she did reply to the text, it was very vague and not suggestive in anyway and then she changed topics. Again my emotions got the best of me and I confronted her about it. Again she told me it was nothing, and said it was an unsolicited text that she didn't entertain. But since that confrontation her behavior has just been bizarre to say the least. I have secretly gotten into her phone and gone through everything, including texts with her closest friends, and have found nothing to suggest it was anything more than an unsolicited text and maybe some text flirting.

But there is still that constant question of "What if?" that just burns at me. There have been little things that have sent up red flags even before I found that text, different sexual positions, different technique, and "grooming" more often then before. But still, going back to everything I've gone through and seeing more evidence that proves it never was physical, not remembering any times that she went out somewhere that wasn't verified and no other little oddities in her behavior, I haven't found anything to prove that she ever actually had an affair. But as I had said, recently there have just been some bizarre things that I've found out about that have all been proved harmless but there's still the question of why?

I too am still looking her some really explanation of what happened with both of these men as there's still that gut feeling that she's not telling me the whole truth. I've very seriously considered leaving just because I don't want to live like this anymore, but the two things stopping me are our young son and what if nothing really happened? If I left and there never had been an affair then I basically gave up 15 years of my life because I was paranoid. It's the worst feeling in the world.


----------



## goingsolo12

Coping the Best I Can said:


> Our sex life has waned down to nothing. It was fine for a few years after the affair, but then it started to dwindle. We haven't been intimate in 3 years, and before that it was less than a dozen times a year. When it was good it was great - felt very connected and loved and felt like a king. But after a while she became very apathetic towards sex and lovemaking until it just stopped. I noticed towards the end she became very stressed about the idea of it all, and she would either put me off or have to make sure everything was picture perfect to go there, and even then she would still be hesitant.
> 
> Right now her health is a big factor for no intimacy, and I can't blame her for that. She claims she would go there and wants to. I don't believe it, because even the little bits of affection (hugs, etc) are missing or seem forced. Deep down she knows something is wrong but won't make light of it.


 @Coping the Best I Can

She is really destroying you. But before you jump to conclusions there can be two cases why she isn't interested in sex.
1) she is not sexually attracted to you anymore and it means you are just a paycheck for her, a security, in this case divorce her. No point in being with a woman who doesn't want you. You can get someone who appreciates you more. 

2) She is way to guilty about herself and she is disgusted by the affair and herself, this causes her to hate herself and detach from you, i am really not sure if this is the case here, this situation can be salvaged through IC but will take more time and effort and the result is not guaranteed.

In both cases the priority is you, she cheated on you, made you a fool,spat on the love you gave her so now its about you and you only, you don't owe her anything, divorce her if she isn't ticking all the check boxes you need to heal. 

I hope your decisions turn out to be right.

All the best.


----------



## goingsolo12

Coping the Best I Can said:


> It's also in the presentation from my (and MC's) end. One way or another, she's going to feel like she's being backed into a corner, because, well, she's being backed into a corner. I'll have to call her out on stuff and she's going to have to answer not only to me, but to MC, and we'll both will know if she's creating a story. It will really depend if she comes clean and is sincere about it.


 @Coping the Best I Can
Well your wife needs to realize that actions have consequences, what did she expect? That she could have an affair and come back to you and everything would be back to normal?

You have suffered a lot for years, its absolutely not fair to you, even if she does come clean by some miracle (which i am really skeptical about) do you really want to spend your life with such a woman? she is still disrespecting you, still betraying you with the lies and with hiding the facts. She still considers herself more important than you and the relationship. I am not sure if spending more time with such a selfish woman is even worth it. Don't waste your time, we all get one life.

I hope you find happiness very soon.

All the best.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

goingsolo12 said:


> @Coping the Best I Can
> 
> She is really destroying you. But before you jump to conclusions there can be two cases why she isn't interested in sex.
> 1) she is not sexually attracted to you anymore and it means you are just a paycheck for her, a security, in this case divorce her. No point in being with a woman who doesn't want you. You can get someone who appreciates you more.
> 
> 2) She is way to guilty about herself and she is disgusted by the affair and herself, this causes her to hate herself and detach from you, i am really not sure if this is the case here, this situation can be salvaged through IC but will take more time and effort and the result is not guaranteed.
> 
> In both cases the priority is you, she cheated on you, made you a fool,spat on the love you gave her so now its about you and you only, you don't owe her anything, divorce her if she isn't ticking all the check boxes you need to heal.
> 
> I hope your decisions turn out to be right.
> 
> All the best.


I honestly think it's option 2. I still believe the situation can improve but I don't know how long or how much I have left to give. Also depends on her willingness to help herself.


----------



## goingsolo12

Coping the Best I Can said:


> I honestly think it's option 2. I still believe the situation can improve but I don't know how long or how much I have left to give. Also depends on her willingness to help herself.


 @Coping the Best I Can

Whatever the case maybe buddy, your job now should be to protect yourself and your feelings. Your priority now should be you. Its your life, do not waste it on more crap. Do what is right for you.

All the best.


----------



## samyeagar

AtMyEnd said:


> This is exactly my wife's point of view on things right now. My situation is different but very similar. I caught my wife about a year ago texting with another man all day every day. My mistake was that I confronted her about it to so, all I had as evidence was the text log from her phone. She told me it was nothing, just another attorney that she knew who gave her advice on work related things and they became friends and texted about work things, family and life in general. I didn't really buy it but I had nothing else to go on, the texting stopped and it pretty much got swept under the rug.
> 
> Fast forward to this past February, I found a suggestive text from a different man on my wife's phone. As much as she did reply to the text, it was very vague and not suggestive in anyway and then she changed topics. Again my emotions got the best of me and I confronted her about it. Again she told me it was nothing, and said it was an unsolicited text that she didn't entertain. But since that confrontation her behavior has just been bizarre to say the least. I have secretly gotten into her phone and gone through everything, including texts with her closest friends, and have found nothing to suggest it was anything more than an unsolicited text and maybe some text flirting.
> 
> But there is still that constant question of "What if?" that just burns at me. There have been little things that have sent up red flags even before I found that text, different sexual positions, different technique, and "grooming" more often then before. But still, going back to everything I've gone through and seeing more evidence that proves it never was physical, not remembering any times that she went out somewhere that wasn't verified and no other little oddities in her behavior, I haven't found anything to prove that she ever actually had an affair. But as I had said, recently there have just been some bizarre things that I've found out about that have all been proved harmless but there's still the question of why?
> 
> I too am still looking her some really explanation of what happened with both of these men as there's still that gut feeling that she's not telling me the whole truth. I've very seriously considered leaving just because I don't want to live like this anymore, but the two things stopping me are our young son and what if nothing really happened? If I left and there never had been an affair then I basically gave up 15 years of my life because I was paranoid. It's the worst feeling in the world.


One very important thing many people forget when it comes to things like texting, facebook, secrecy with phones and all that crap...this isn't a damned criminal court. "Proof" is in the eye of the beholder, and the threshold for something being wrong, out of line, a deal breaker gets to be set where ever you want it to be set. People don't have to be wishy-washy wondering whether is was it or wasn't crossing any lines because they get to define where that line is. I think far too many people use the whole not enough proof, needing more or different evidence as an excuse for not taking actions they deep down know they should take.


----------



## AtMyEnd

samyeagar said:


> One very important thing many people forget when it comes to things like texting, facebook, secrecy with phones and all that crap...this isn't a damned criminal court. "Proof" is in the eye of the beholder, and the threshold for something being wrong, out of line, a deal breaker gets to be set where ever you want it to be set. People don't have to be wishy-washy wondering whether is was it or wasn't crossing any lines because they get to define where that line is. I think far too many people use the whole not enough proof, needing more or different evidence as an excuse for not taking actions they deep down know they should take.


I do agree with you and actions have been taken in both incidents. She has told me and I have seen that all communication with both men has stopped, and she told me how she ran into one of them a networking event recently and told me how she had no idea that he was going to be there or she wouldn't have went. And through all my investigation, spying, monitoring thing else I have not found one thing that remotely suggests it was a physical affair. Thing's have improved in my marriage and but I still can't justify filing for divorce, ending my marriage, breaking up my family, losing half of everything else I've built up over the last 15 years, and possibly damaging my relationship with my young son without seeing some kind of definitive proof that there was an actual affair.


----------



## samyeagar

AtMyEnd said:


> I do agree with you and actions have been taken in both incidents. She has told me and I have seen that all communication with both men has stopped, and she told me how she ran into one of them a networking event recently and told me how she had no idea that he was going to be there or she wouldn't have went. And through all my investigation, spying, monitoring thing else I have not found one thing that remotely suggests it was a physical affair. Thing's have improved in my marriage and but I still can't justify filing for divorce, ending my marriage, breaking up my family, losing half of everything else I've built up over the last 15 years, and possibly damaging my relationship with my young son without seeing *some kind of definitive proof that there was an actual affair*.


Just remember that you are the one who sets the threshold for, and gets to define what counts as definitive proof. Ask yourself about the behaviour, and if it comes down to "I'm not ok with that." then you have all the proof you need.


----------



## AtMyEnd

samyeagar said:


> Just remember that you are the one who sets the threshold for, and gets to define what counts as definitive proof. Ask yourself about the behaviour, and if it comes down to "I'm not ok with that." then you have all the proof you need.


That's the thing, her behavior isn't that of someone sneaking around with someone else. Her behavior is more that she is testing me to see if I am spying on her and monitoring what she does, it really is bizarre.

One example was I was going to a friends to play cards, I brought my son because all the kids were going to be there as well and she didn't want to go claiming she had to get caught up on work and she was tired. Then she told me she was going to go to a friends house to hang out and watch a movie. I sent a friend of mine past her friends house to check for her car and it wasn't there. Over the course of that night both myself and a friends wife had texted her and she hadn't responded. When she finally did she told me how they hung out, had girl talk and watched a movie. She even told me the name of the movie and about a whole conversation she had with her friends daughters. Now here I am pissed off beyond belief knowing that it's all a lie. So when I got home that night I got into her phone while she was sleeping. I found texts with the friend she told me she was going to see and she was with her, only they went out to a restaurant. My wife even joked about how she told me she was going to her house to watch a movie and while looking through her pictures I found selfies of the two of them at the restaurant. The next night I went into her phone again and saw texts with the same friend with my wife saying that she doesn't think I believed that she was at her house and the friend asked if she had shown me the pictures.

So now yes she lied about where she was and made up this whole story about the night, and when I looked into it I found that other than that she wasn't doing anything wrong and did just go out for dinner and drinks with a friend. But why lie and make up a story other than to try and get me to call her out on lying about and prove that I was spying on her?


----------



## Tatsuhiko

@AtMyEnd, you should keep this stuff on your own thread. This thread was started by user "Coping the best I can"


----------



## Popcorn2015

Coping the Best I Can said:


> Our sex life has waned down to nothing. It was fine for a few years after the affair, but then it started to dwindle. We haven't been intimate in 3 years, and before that it was less than a dozen times a year.


Holy **** bro why are you still married? Why didn't you divorce 13 years ago when she slept with another man?


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

Popcorn2015 said:


> Holy **** bro why are you still married? Why didn't you divorce 13 years ago when she slept with another man?


Honestly, back then I didn't have the balls to do it, even though she was practically daring me. She used to say "you just let me know if you want me to leave." Now it's not the case. Now she is so depressed that the proposition of my divorcing her sends her in crying fits for days. Now I do have the balls to do it and I'm giving her this last chance. I can't go on like this any more.

Strangely enough, I have a very odd feeling that my life is going to drastically change in the next 6 months. What I don't know is how it will change, but I've learned to trust my premonitions.


----------



## ABHale

Coping the Best I Can said:


> He was way below her standards and she knew it.



Apparently not........


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

ABHale said:


> Apparently not........



No, really, she knows he was way below her level. She may not have felt that way during the A but after the fog lifted she couldn't believe that she lowered her standards that much. That I know for sure. She was very sincere when she opened up about that.


----------



## bigfoot

Wow. That is amazing. She taunted you to cut her loose and you could not, but at least you call it like it was. You've been miserable since. I feel really bad for you. I would simply say that you should paddle. 

What I mean is that right now you are just drifting downstream in the miserable canoe (marriage). At first you were afraid to paddle (leave), and now you have the paddle in your hand, but you are still letting her dictate what happens. Paddle my man. Who cares about ow she feels at this point? 

I get that you care about this woman, but dude... its time to paddle. There are no magical words or behavior that are going to change 13 years and change. Maybe you need to wait and see for yourself, but that is just more wasted time in the canoe. Paddle like hell.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

bigfoot said:


> Wow. That is amazing. She taunted you to cut her loose and you could not, but at least you call it like it was. You've been miserable since. I feel really bad for you. I would simply say that you should paddle.
> 
> What I mean is that right now you are just drifting downstream in the miserable canoe (marriage). At first you were afraid to paddle (leave), and now you have the paddle in your hand, but you are still letting her dictate what happens. Paddle my man. Who cares about ow she feels at this point?
> 
> I get that you care about this woman, but dude... its time to paddle. There are no magical words or behavior that are going to change 13 years and change. Maybe you need to wait and see for yourself, but that is just more wasted time in the canoe. Paddle like hell.



I'm looking at it this way. This IS the last chance, and if the change doesn't happen, dramatically, then I'm done. I've wasted a lot of time, lost a lot of good friendships and most of my adult life stuck with her. I can't go on like this any more. I'm 43. I figure I still have a couple more good decades. I am preparing myself now to give her an ultimatum - to say to her in front of the MC that either these things have to happen, and she commits to helping herself, or we're done. That much I finally have the balls to say. Maybe it's all for nothing, but I have to give it that much.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

AtMyEnd said:


> That's the thing, her behavior isn't that of someone sneaking around with someone else. Her behavior is more that she is testing me to see if I am spying on her and monitoring what she does, it really is bizarre.
> 
> 
> 
> One example was I was going to a friends to play cards, I brought my son because all the kids were going to be there as well and she didn't want to go claiming she had to get caught up on work and she was tired. Then she told me she was going to go to a friends house to hang out and watch a movie. I sent a friend of mine past her friends house to check for her car and it wasn't there. Over the course of that night both myself and a friends wife had texted her and she hadn't responded. When she finally did she told me how they hung out, had girl talk and watched a movie. She even told me the name of the movie and about a whole conversation she had with her friends daughters. Now here I am pissed off beyond belief knowing that it's all a lie. So when I got home that night I got into her phone while she was sleeping. I found texts with the friend she told me she was going to see and she was with her, only they went out to a restaurant. My wife even joked about how she told me she was going to her house to watch a movie and while looking through her pictures I found selfies of the two of them at the restaurant. The next night I went into her phone again and saw texts with the same friend with my wife saying that she doesn't think I believed that she was at her house and the friend asked if she had shown me the pictures.
> 
> 
> 
> So now yes she lied about where she was and made up this whole story about the night, and when I looked into it I found that other than that she wasn't doing anything wrong and did just go out for dinner and drinks with a friend. But why lie and make up a story other than to try and get me to call her out on lying about and prove that I was spying on her?




Or she could be banging someone and her friend is the cover - she stops by and snaps a couple photos - and her friend asks "did he see the photos?". That's why

In any event I wouldn't put up with **** tests like that. You fail if you DON'T acknowledge that she's playing you for a fool.

Also - ANY texting other guys - that's cheating and that's all I'd need to know. If she has directed any interest at all at another guy, I'd accept that we are done and it's time to move on. I'm not hanging around to try to win my own freaking w back - wtf that's crazy 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tatsuhiko

Threadjack should end now. This thread belongs to user "Coping the Best I Can". No more quoting user "AtMyEnd".

AtMyEnd's thread is here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/374593-confusion-all.html


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## She'sStillGotIt

Coping the Best I Can said:


> I don't want the porn version. What I really want to hear is "yes, I had an ongoing sexual relationship with the man." I also want to know if he used protection. Not for the STDs (we've both been tested), but I want to know if she opened herself up that much physically and emotionally to let him do that. I also want to know if the sex position she proposed to me was something she did with him. I need to hear that so I know I'm not completely crazy.
> 
> If she divulges more, I'll let her talk until I can't handle any more, but no, it's not about making another porn movie in my head starring my wife and the OM.
> 
> I still believe the more she opens up the better she'll be in the end. Experience has taught me that telling the truth can be very freeing.


I'm just trying to understand.

So you've stayed with her all this time, *KNOWING* she's been lying to your face day after day, year after year?

Why in the hell would _anyone _degrade themselves like that? :wtf:


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

TheTruthHurts said:


> Maybe you should print out divorce papers and have them ready. If you're serious then that's actually your next step if she can't be honest. Then present them with the MC and say our next session should be about the resolution of our marriage


The OP should have done this 13 years ago when the lying began.

And for the record, since she's been lying for 13 years, she NEVER had remorse. TRUE remorse isn't lying to someone and taking their secret to the grave with them. You just saw regret - regret that she'd been caught.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

Thanks to everyone for the input. I definitely hear everyone saying how I should have left her years ago but I need to stay in the present, and the situation right now is I'm still her husband. 

I am angry at her and the situation but I'm not malicious. I'm not looking for revenge. What I'm looking for is peace in my life and a chance to salvage some personal happiness.

She only works part time and her health makes it difficult to hold a full time job. She hasn't actually looked for one, but if I divorce her, she will have to. While I may be able to let her go now because I don't see things changing, what I can't do is leave her on the streets. 

If she's capable of showing true remorse and makes a visible effort towards R, then I will give it one more chance. We've been down this path before and she'll make the visible efforts for about a month and then things start going back to the way they were. If that happens again, this time it's over. That is the ultimatum I will give her when we meet with the MC. Right now, I don't see her being able to do it.

Maybe now I'm starting to understand why I think my life is going to drastically change in the next 6 months...


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## Evinrude58

You haven't had sex on three years?
Am I correct on that?

If so, you are ruining your life for no reason. Your wife didn't worry about you when she was cheating....
She can get a job, or she can get on disability.

Stop making excuses on my you won't move on, knowing your wife doesn't love you. You haven't had sex with your wife in three years. That's not going to change unless you leave her and find another woman who loves you.


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## manwithnoname

Think about this: She's only still with you because she gained weight and can't attract another man. She cheated on you 13 years ago, showed no remorse, you've had sex with her 0 times in the last 3 years. Why are you still with her?

At this point, knowing more details will just remake the mind movies with 4K technology, but none of that matters anymore.

Your marriage has been over for quite some time.


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## Thor

Coping the Best I Can said:


> She has a history of sexual abuse. Part of her coping after a rape during college was going boy crazy.


Was there child sex abuse (prior to puberty) or just the rape in college?

Going boy crazy is a common reaction to CSA. Though I know little about rape survivors, my impression is they tend to go the other way towards having difficulty with sexual intimacy.

Sticking with the CSA, it permanently changes the girl's view of sex and sexuality. She learns about sex in a very dysfunctional way before she is emotionally or intellectually mature. She doesn't have the same perspective at the time of the event(s) as an adult would. There's a lot of baggage attached to the abuse which become complications for you as husband and as the betrayed.


----------



## Thor

Coping the Best I Can said:


> The thought of leaving her is very tempting, just because I'd be able to live my life without the constant question of "what else is going on that I don't know about." This is what I can't handle any more. But then my own personal beliefs and values kick in and the cognitive dissonance comes out in full force. The idea that I married for life and she's broken and it's my job as her husband to help her though it.


You are not obligated to stay if she is not making a good faith and strong effort to help herself. You say she has not dealt with her trauma. Until she attempts to do that, she is doing nothing.

She is also not making any effort to help you save the marriage. She is stonewalling and gaslighting you.

Let's use an analogy. Let's say she was innocently walking along when a drunk driver hits her and breaks her legs. She gets medical treatment, and when the casts come off she goes to physical therapy. It turns out she can no longer engage in some outdoor physical activities you used to do together. Yup, your duty as husband is to adapt to these new limitations. She has sought out necessary help and she has done hard work to overcome her deficit to the extent possible.

Now imagine she refused to comply with medical orders and walked around on those casts. And she refused to go to PT once the casts were off. Now she is pretty much wheelchair bound. She refuses to seek help even now. You do not have a duty to sacrifice yourself to care for this person!

Even when the initial damage was absolutely not any of her fault, she is still responsible as an adult human to work to overcome her deficits. And, if she is not willing to do so, she should withdraw from the marriage. That is her duty to you as your spouse.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

Thor said:


> Was there child sex abuse (prior to puberty) or just the rape in college?


She clams to be molested by an extended family member at 13, though no one but myself and MC know about it. Father was abusive alcoholic but was out of the picture at age 14. Not much is known about what form of her abuse came from the father. Mother left to escape father and then 6 months later came to get children (this leads to abandonment issues too).

From what I gathered, the boy craziness started in HS, although she says it started after the rape in college. 



Thor said:


> There's a lot of baggage attached to the abuse which become complications for you as husband and as the betrayed.


Don't I know it. And all this really didn't come out until I was in too deep. 

Part of my issue is I have a hard time blaming her for her actions because of her past. I know that's the wrong way to look at it, but there it is.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

Thor said:


> You are not obligated to stay if she is not making a good faith and strong effort to help herself. You say she has not dealt with her trauma. Until she attempts to do that, she is doing nothing.
> 
> She is also not making any effort to help you save the marriage. She is stonewalling and gaslighting you.
> 
> Let's use an analogy. Let's say she was innocently walking along when a drunk driver hits her and breaks her legs. She gets medical treatment, and when the casts come off she goes to physical therapy. It turns out she can no longer engage in some outdoor physical activities you used to do together. Yup, your duty as husband is to adapt to these new limitations. She has sought out necessary help and she has done hard work to overcome her deficit to the extent possible.
> 
> Now imagine she refused to comply with medical orders and walked around on those casts. And she refused to go to PT once the casts were off. Now she is pretty much wheelchair bound. She refuses to seek help even now. You do not have a duty to sacrifice yourself to care for this person!
> 
> Even when the initial damage was absolutely not any of her fault, she is still responsible as an adult human to work to overcome her deficits. And, if she is not willing to do so, she should withdraw from the marriage. That is her duty to you as your spouse.



Thor - your analogy is ironic. Her health issues are leg related. And she hasn't been doing what the therapist has been telling her to do. She's so depressed she hasn't been doing much except sitting on a recliner and playing her games on her phone, or watching TV, or sleeping (hence the weight gain). I've tried to motivate her but the more I do the more she digs her heels in and doesn't do anything.


----------



## Thor

Coping the Best I Can said:


> Right now I think I can provide that reassurance. What I intend to tell her is if she could open up then R may be possible, but if she can't then there's no chance any more.
> 
> I'm also preparing for the possibility of forgiving her but still moving on. I may have to, but I really want to forgive her first.


I gave my wife the same kind of assurances you are talking about. I told her we could deal with anything as long as it was out in the open. I also told her the marriage would be over if I found out about anything from any source other than her. She said there was nothing more.

And then I started finding more. Also she committed several new big lies and deceptions.

I tried the carrot and stick but her self-protective mode was such she just more deeply dug in her heels. My observation is abuse survivors (who haven't dealt with their trauma) are tougher than average to crack. And my observation of others is the cheater almost universally does not respond to the carrot and stick by confessing. 

Confession comes only when they expect the outcome of silence to be worse than giving up some information. This is where trickle-truth comes from. They trickle out a little bit in hopes it satisfies you. They don't reveal everything because they believe you would leave if you knew.

A CSA survivor's (dunno about rape but suspect it is similar) second biggest fear is abandonment. Their biggest fear is they are as repulsive as they think they are due to the abuse. That's why they hide the abuse or greatly minimize it. They fear if you knew the truth you would find them repulsive, and then you'd abandon her.

This mentality can be at play regarding the affair. If you know the full truth you'd leave her, and she fears that rejection. So she is committed to hiding the truth.

The problem is you don't know what the full truth is of this affair, so you can't determine when you know the full truth.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

Thor said:


> Confession comes only when they expect the outcome of silence to be worse than giving up some information. This is where trickle-truth comes from. They trickle out a little bit in hopes it satisfies you. They don't reveal everything because they believe you would leave if you knew.


I'm not expecting her to remember or reveal everything in one session with MC, but I am expecting her to own up to and admit some of the basics. I'm also expecting her to be willing to answer my questions, both in front of MC and at home afterwards, because I will need time to process everything. If she can't or she says "that's everything" and I know there's more, I'll have to call her on it and end it.

I'm expecting at least some confession initially because by staying silent, she loses me, and she can't handle that right now. MC believes that once the door is opened, there's at least a chance that the rest will come out willingly. I'm not expecting a miracle in one MC session, but if I see a pattern of her opening up and continuously showing remorse and willingness to work on everything, perhaps there's a chance.


----------



## Thor

Coping the Best I Can said:


> She clams to be molested by an extended family member at 13, though no one but myself and MC know about it. Father was abusive alcoholic but was out of the picture at age 14. Not much is known about what form of her abuse came from the father. Mother left to escape father and then 6 months later came to get children (this leads to abandonment issues too).
> 
> From what I gathered, the boy craziness started in HS, although she says it started after the rape in college.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't I know it. And all this really didn't come out until I was in too deep.
> 
> Part of my issue is I have a hard time blaming her for her actions because of her past. I know that's the wrong way to look at it, but there it is.


Ok, you're a Secondary Survivor of CSA. She is the Survivor. I prefer the term "victim", but Survivor is the preferred term. Anyhow, her close family, spouse, and children would be Secondaries. The abuse is being passed on to you, too. She is not evil or malicious, but she is abusing you.

I would suspect the abuse was worse than she has ever told you. That's part of the typical scenario, especially since she is so private about it. Not that there is anything for you to do about it, but just be aware things are probably worse than you know, which means her dysfunctions are worse than you might think.

Boy crazy, or promiscuity, is one typical response to CSA. The other is extreme prudishness. The promiscuous ones may find they get attention, acceptance, social status, and perhaps a feeling of love from the sex. But when she gets married, her boyfriend becomes husband. Instead of all those positive rewards, she now sees you as an adult male family member. You're now in the same category as her abuser. You're dangerous. Suddenly, sex with you becomes emotionally difficult. You may have noticed her zoning out during sex, maybe turning her head away from you. She may have changed from being sexually adventurous to very restrained.

And so she misses all that positive stuff she had when single. This is why CSA is one of the top 3 risk factors related to cheating.

It doesn't surprise me you have indications her promiscuity started earlier than she has admitted to.

Your concern for her is typical, btw. You sound like a very typical Secondary in many ways. Years of no sex in marriage, her having affairs, her hiding information.

I think it unlikely she is going to have an epiphany that she should be fully openly honest with you. It would go completely against her entire view of how to deal with the world. The Survivor learns to hide things she believes might cause others to reject her.


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## Coping the Best I Can

Thor said:


> Boy crazy, or promiscuity, is one typical response to CSA. The other is extreme prudishness. The promiscuous ones may find they get attention, acceptance, social status, and perhaps a feeling of love from the sex. But when she gets married, her boyfriend becomes husband. Instead of all those positive rewards, she now sees you as an adult male family member. You're now in the same category as her abuser. You're dangerous. Suddenly, sex with you becomes emotionally difficult. You may have noticed her zoning out during sex, maybe turning her head away from you. She may have changed from being sexually adventurous to very restrained.


You hit the nail right on the head with your analysis. 




Thor said:


> And so she misses all that positive stuff she had when single. This is why CSA is one of the top 3 risk factors related to cheating.


I have always noticed her longing for her days when she was single. There was always been a man involved, but her single days were her happiest.



Thor said:


> Your concern for her is typical, btw. You sound like a very typical Secondary in many ways. Years of no sex in marriage, her having affairs, her hiding information.
> 
> I think it unlikely she is going to have an epiphany that she should be fully openly honest with you. It would go completely against her entire view of how to deal with the world. The Survivor learns to hide things she believes might cause others to reject her.


I don't think she'll let go either, but I have to try.


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## Be smart

Your Marriage cant be worse then this. I dont even know if I can call it a Marriage at this point,sorry. 

Your Wife not only Cheated on you with one of your Friends,she lied to you for Years and Years. No respect for you at all. 

She lies about other stuff in your life,because she has a problem with Depresion. Well that is her excuse. You want to know the truth? She lies because she can. 

You never had a R. Going to MC is waste of the time. She never opens herself and you cant talk about real problems outside your therapist office. 

Did you expose her Affair?
Is OM out of the picture? 

Best of luck to you.


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## Coping the Best I Can

I'm starting to wonder what I should be more worried about - the cheating and lying or the fact that she's a CSA survivor.


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## 86857

Maybe don't wonder about it right now. 
See what happens at the MC and take it from there. 
Is the appt soon?


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## Rubix Cubed

Coping the Best I Can said:


> I'm starting to wonder what I should be more worried about - the cheating and lying or the fact that she's a CSA survivor.


 Unfortunately you can't do anything about any of them. Only she can, so worrying about it is just bad for you.


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## Coping the Best I Can

********** said:


> Maybe don't wonder about it right now.
> See what happens at the MC and take it from there.
> Is the appt soon?


Week and a half from now.


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## Affaircare

Coping the Best I Can said:


> I'm starting to wonder what I should be more worried about - the cheating and lying or the fact that she's a CSA survivor.


 @Coping the Best I Can, 

I'm speaking to you as a CSA and physical abuse survivor, and there are a couple important things you need to know. 

First, the fact that she was sexually abused as a child is in the past--she is in the present. It may help "explain" why she has a screwed up view of love, sex and honesty, but it does not "excuse" her from dealing with it in the present or being personally responsible in the present. At some point she became aware that her views of love and sex and honesty are messed up, so at that point, as an adult, she becomes responsible for pursuing and DOING THE WORK to make her views of love and sex and honesty more healthy. 

Little example: as a child, my parents hit me daily with a broomstick. Naturally this made my view of love crazy, because "the people who love me" also physically hurt me. So as a younger adult, I gravitated toward abusive boyfriends because that's what I knew and it was familiar to me and somehow love and abuse were intertwined. But as I got older I noticed I was angry with my kids at level 10 when they really deserved maybe a level 3 for spilling or something. I noticed I had a problem and "something wasn't right" so rather than continuing to harm myself and my children and blaming others for my responsibilities, I got myself into counseling! Now I had locked the memories of my childhood abuse away in a bottle with a cork, in a chest covered in chains, in a room with iron bars, behind a huge vault door with an unbreakable lock ...because who wants to remember that stuff, right? But my therapy got me to not only remember them but also to DEAL WITH THEM in a way that protected me and helped me to see what was a healthier way to deal other than stuffing it down. I had to relive some of it. It was painful. But my responsibility as an adult in the present was to protect my children, and that meant I had to face ME to deal with myself. Get it?

So the first thing I would recommend changing is your perspective that she's not responsible for the affair or her actions now "because she was sexually abused as a child." Yep, it does help to understand why she's a mess, but the fact that she's a mess now is her job to clean up and deal with IN THE PRESENT. 

Second, it seems to me like your MC is noticing that she is nearing the point where she might be able to unlock a few locks and unchain a few chains, and my suggestion to you would be that as long as she stays in the counseling and is dealing with both her CSA past and her affair past--do your best to stick it out. As she relives things, it is likely she'll be a bit of an emotional mess, but if she's showing the courage to fact it, the light at the end of the tunnel is that she would be a person who's healthier in the way she has relationships. If she AVOIDS counseling or doesn't want to do the work or eludes being honest with herself, then yep you need to go, and you need to go bearing in mind that it is absolutely the best thing you can do for her. She needs to get to a place where avoiding the past is more painful than remembering, and as long as her life is "okayish" now, she will avoid having to deal with the past. My counselor used to say "The cost of staying a bud is more painful that the fear of blossoming." She's afraid to deal with it. She's afraid to remember! But if the fear of losing you and her marriage and her life and her "comfort" is bigger than the fear of remembering, it may well be the catalyst that starts her healing. 

Finally, if she does have the courage to say "I did open myself up to sexuality 13 years ago. I did suggest that weird position because OM and I did it" (aka "Worst Case Scenario") I want you to consider one response: "Thank you for being honest with me after all this time. I am hurt to hear this, and rather than hurt you back, I want to take some time to think about what you've said." And then don't talk to her again until you are able to do so rationally. 

Here's why: if she finally does gather her courage to be honest, and she is met with a response of rage or an ensuing fight, what she'll think is "See? This is why I wasn't honest. I didn't want all the screaming" (or something to that effect). Chances or her every being honest again are diminished. BUT if you reply something like what I wrote, that does two things: a) she is "rewarded" for being honest with at least not being yelled at, and b) it gives you a moment to compose yourself rather than responding with a knee-jerk emotional response. When a person responds "from emotion" the rational/reasonable side of their brain hasn't kicked in yet. 

So whatever she does honestly say, if it is worthy of anger or "that's not okay with me" then it is reasonable to wait until the feeling of vengeance has passed and then engage once you're able to say "The fact you slept with another man is not okay with me. I feel so many of the affair emotions again, like a new betrayal. I think I'm so stupid for staying this long when you never even respected me enough to tell me the truth! So I'm going to request that you put some action into showing me that you are glad you picked me and glad I chose to stick it out with you even though it was hard."


----------



## farsidejunky

Coping the Best I Can said:


> I'm looking at it this way. This IS the last chance, and if the change doesn't happen, dramatically, then I'm done. I've wasted a lot of time, lost a lot of good friendships and most of my adult life stuck with her. I can't go on like this any more. I'm 43. I figure I still have a couple more good decades. I am preparing myself now to give her an ultimatum - to say to her in front of the MC that either these things have to happen, and she commits to helping herself, or we're done. That much I finally have the balls to say. Maybe it's all for nothing, but I have to give it that much.


Make sure you mean it.

Never...ever...ever play brinkmanship unless you are willing to go over the brink.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

@Affaircare - thank you for such a thoughtful post. Let me respond to each part.




Affaircare said:


> I'm speaking to you as a CSA and physical abuse survivor, and there are a couple important things you need to know.


I was hoping someone who has been there would voice their thoughts. I'm trying not to get the "just get rid of her" mentality.



Affaircare said:


> First, the fact that she was sexually abused as a child is in the past--she is in the present. It may help "explain" why she has a screwed up view of love, sex and honesty, but it does not "excuse" her from dealing with it in the present or being personally responsible in the present. At some point she became aware that her views of love and sex and honesty are messed up, so at that point, as an adult, she becomes responsible for pursuing and DOING THE WORK to make her views of love and sex and honesty more healthy.


I agree, and I don't give her a pass for her choices. Over the years I've asked questions and did a lot of research to try to understand more, but in no way does a CSA past condone or justify anything. I really don't think she realizes her views of love and sex and honesty are as messed up as they are. She's coasted by in her life and only dealt with them briefly when she had to.



Affaircare said:


> Little example: as a child, my parents hit me daily with a broomstick. Naturally this made my view of love crazy, because "the people who love me" also physically hurt me. So as a younger adult, I gravitated toward abusive boyfriends because that's what I knew and it was familiar to me and somehow love and abuse were intertwined. But as I got older I noticed I was angry with my kids at level 10 when they really deserved maybe a level 3 for spilling or something. I noticed I had a problem and "something wasn't right" so rather than continuing to harm myself and my children and blaming others for my responsibilities, I got myself into counseling! Now I had locked the memories of my childhood abuse away in a bottle with a cork, in a chest covered in chains, in a room with iron bars, behind a huge vault door with an unbreakable lock ...because who wants to remember that stuff, right? But my therapy got me to not only remember them but also to DEAL WITH THEM in a way that protected me and helped me to see what was a healthier way to deal other than stuffing it down. I had to relive some of it. It was painful. But my responsibility as an adult in the present was to protect my children, and that meant I had to face ME to deal with myself. Get it?


Oh, I get it. I'm a big proponent of counseling and opening up things and dealing with them. I've had relationships with counselors off and on since I was 18 (I'm 43). But this isn't about me. She doesn't do well taking responsibility with anything. In many ways I feel as her husband I let that happen, which isn't good. 

Her ability to commit to anything is so non-existent that she pretty much only does something when she wants to, right up to basic things like eating and taking a shower. I really think some discipline in her life would help tremendously. Maybe even an accountability partner. 



Affaircare said:


> So the first thing I would recommend changing is your perspective that she's not responsible for the affair or her actions now "because she was sexually abused as a child." Yep, it does help to understand why she's a mess, but the fact that she's a mess now is her job to clean up and deal with IN THE PRESENT.


Again, my perspective is definitely not that she can use CSA as an excuse for her choices. Never has been. It does explain a lot though.



Affaircare said:


> Second, it seems to me like your MC is noticing that she is nearing the point where she might be able to unlock a few locks and unchain a few chains, and my suggestion to you would be that as long as she stays in the counseling and is dealing with both her CSA past and her affair past--do your best to stick it out.


What MC is noticing is that I'm at my wits end and I'm ready to give up if something doesn't change. She's totally unaware of this though. At this point, we don't discuss relationship issues unless it's in front of the MC. Not that I don't want to, but she's afraid to go there without that buffer. I've been tame in our MC sessions so far. Perhaps that's not good, but I know she can't handle any more from me. Next session is when we crack this open finally, but she's unaware of that. In many ways that's good because she would avoid it if she knew. 



Affaircare said:


> As she relives things, it is likely she'll be a bit of an emotional mess, but if she's showing the courage to fact it, the light at the end of the tunnel is that she would be a person who's healthier in the way she has relationships. If she AVOIDS counseling or doesn't want to do the work or eludes being honest with herself, then yep you need to go, and you need to go bearing in mind that it is absolutely the best thing you can do for her. She needs to get to a place where avoiding the past is more painful than remembering, and as long as her life is "okayish" now, she will avoid having to deal with the past.


Her life is "okayish" because she doesn't have to work full time to survive. Other than that her life is as dead as a doornail. She barely has any friends, she sits on the recliner playing her cell phone games and chatting with people online. She does nothing to attempt to improve her situation. But it's safe because I'm paying the bills. 

The good news is she really likes our MC. If she avoids the sessions, doesn't do the work, or won't be honest with herself or me (or MC), then I will have to go, and I'm trying to be ready for that. It will be a huge kick in the but for her either way. 



Affaircare said:


> My counselor used to say "The cost of staying a bud is more painful that the fear of blossoming." She's afraid to deal with it. She's afraid to remember! But if the fear of losing you and her marriage and her life and her "comfort" is bigger than the fear of remembering, it may well be the catalyst that starts her healing.


She has no problems reliving situations where she feels she's the victim. She has huge problems reliving situations where she's ashamed or embarrassed (her affair, past boyfriends, etc.) I'm confident that there's parts of her history so locked down that even she can't get to them. I'm not expecting a miracle in one MC session though. If she can open up about the affair, then I'm hoping that will start the healing and more revelation will ensue. I'm willing to wait it out if I see that happening, because I really want to see her heal.



Affaircare said:


> Finally, if she does have the courage to say "I did open myself up to sexuality 13 years ago. I did suggest that weird position because OM and I did it" (aka "Worst Case Scenario") I want you to consider one response: "Thank you for being honest with me after all this time. I am hurt to hear this, and rather than hurt you back, I want to take some time to think about what you've said." And then don't talk to her again until you are able to do so rationally.
> 
> Here's why: if she finally does gather her courage to be honest, and she is met with a response of rage or an ensuing fight, what she'll think is "See? This is why I wasn't honest. I didn't want all the screaming" (or something to that effect). Chances or her every being honest again are diminished. BUT if you reply something like what I wrote, that does two things: a) she is "rewarded" for being honest with at least not being yelled at, and b) it gives you a moment to compose yourself rather than responding with a knee-jerk emotional response. When a person responds "from emotion" the rational/reasonable side of their brain hasn't kicked in yet.


I'm trying to prepare myself just that way. I know she can't take the raw emotion, and I have a history of opening my mouth too soon. This is why I'm happy to have a little bit of time to get myself ready. Another hard part for me will be her trying to defend herself with false stories, and I'm going to have to call her out on what really happened. I'm trying to work on my delivery for when that happens.



Affaircare said:


> So whatever she does honestly say, if it is worthy of anger or "that's not okay with me" then it is reasonable to wait until the feeling of vengeance has passed and then engage once you're able to say "The fact you slept with another man is not okay with me. I feel so many of the affair emotions again, like a new betrayal. I think I'm so stupid for staying this long when you never even respected me enough to tell me the truth! So I'm going to request that you put some action into showing me that you are glad you picked me and glad I chose to stick it out with you even though it was hard."


As much as I can, I will be as composed and non-emotional as possible. MC warned me that we don't know what will come out of her mouth, and what I know may only be a small part of what she did. So I don't know how I'll react until that moment. I'm sure having the MC present will help keep me in check.

Thank you again for your help.


----------



## aine

CTBIC, I truly hope that the MC can 'unlock' your wife so that you can get what you need to either move on in the marriage or move out of the marriage.
What struck me about your posting is that a BS can 'suffer' for a long time when the WS refuses to be open and transparent around D Day. The A hangs over the marriage like a dark cloud and real healing never really begins.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Coping the Best I Can said:


> I don't think she'll let go either, but I have to try.


You forgot "again." What you've been doing, for nearly a decade and a half, is called TRYING. Hold on to your resolve and open up in MC. You've waited 13 years and a number of counseling sessions for your time. You are still protecting your wife, even though you need some help healing. Yes, you do have to be careful and work through things, but you've been punished as well. Dares to divorce, trickle truth, lack of sex and lies are why you are in MC right now.


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## sokillme

Coping the Best I Can said:


> Honestly, back then I didn't have the balls to do it, even though she was practically daring me. She used to say "you just let me know if you want me to leave." Now it's not the case. Now she is so depressed that the proposition of my divorcing her sends her in crying fits for days. Now I do have the balls to do it and I'm giving her this last chance. I can't go on like this any more.
> 
> Strangely enough, I have a very odd feeling that my life is going to drastically change in the next 6 months. What I don't know is how it will change, but I've learned to trust my premonitions.


Your post is not that unusual. I think lots of men go through this, I believe this is the reason lots of them stay. Lots of men also years later hate the deal they signed up for.

See my thread in the men's section. You are the textbook man who had his nature as a husband exploited and used against him. TEXTBOOK. 

You are still trying to protect her, telling her with a counselor present, like she is in need of protection from her actions. Still giving her a chance to magically fix this when she lied to you for over a decade. Had sex with another man but refuses to have sex with you. She has been abusing you for over a decade and you still protect her. Something is not right that you continue to do this even now. 

You are the proverbial kid who doesn't stand up to the bully in grade school. You continue to try to nice her enough to get her to treat you well. You misjudge her fundamental nature, you blame the past and the present not her character. Plenty of people have just as bad a past and don't abuse the ones who supports them emotionally and at least partially financially, FOR DECADES. It's her nature not her experiences. Experience makes her want to take the action but she doesn't have to act on those wants. 

You need to read some books on codependency. You have it bad my friend really bad. And if you don't fix it even if you leave her you will just attract the same type of women. You have already wasted a decade. There is SO much better out there. But you are afraid. Again, like the bullied kid in grade school. You should have stood up to the bully when this first happens, your life would have been better for it.

Do it now.



> I'm starting to wonder what I should be more worried about - the cheating and lying or the fact that she's a CSA survivor.


I have to be honest even though it's harsh, I think at least as big a problem for you is not your wife but you. Why did you put up with such abuse for SO long? Why did you accept so little. That should be your biggest worry. This is not a healthy reaction. Something is wrong. You need to figure this out and fix it our again you will attract the same type of women. They can smell men like you, and they take advantage. The guy who tries to save them. You have been trying to save your wife for your whole marriage. How has that worked out?


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## phillybeffandswiss

Here's my reasoning. She was abused and raped, which is utterly disgusting. She then had an affair, which is utterly disgusting. What you've done is combined the two to protect your wife's image in your eyes. As you were told above, they are two separate issues. What you've done is put her first, which would be fine if she put you first as well. Guess what happens when one person always gets what they want? They become complacent, do what they want, let themselves go and sit in a chair not being intimate with their spouse. You want to know something else? This same behavior occurs in marriages WITHOUT abuse and rape. You are currently in a one sided marriage and until that is fixed it is only going to get worse.

Honestly, though it is already pretty dang bad and I do not know what would be worse within reason.


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## Coping the Best I Can

aine said:


> CTBIC, I truly hope that the MC can 'unlock' your wife so that you can get what you need to either move on in the marriage or move out of the marriage.
> What struck me about your posting is that a BS can 'suffer' for a long time when the WS refuses to be open and transparent around D Day. The A hangs over the marriage like a dark cloud and real healing never really begins.


I'd like to believe she just can't open up in fear of vengeance on my part, but sometimes I feel like I'm being played. The lies and omissions don't stop with just the affair. She lies about anything she fears my reaction to, and in the end it makes the situation worse because I call her out or eventually find the truth.


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## sokillme

Coping the Best I Can said:


> I'd like to believe she just can't open up in fear of vengeance on my part, but sometimes I feel like I'm being played. The lies and omissions don't stop with just the affair. She lies about anything she fears my reaction to, and in the end it makes the situation worse because I call her out or eventually find the truth.


You don't need vengeance you need to stop protecting her from her own consequences. You are enabling her. This is not what a good friend or husband does, or really what an AUTHENTIC PERSON does, not when the actions are this awful. This is what someone who is codependent does. She need strong harsh consequences 12 years ago, by protecting her she has ended up never dealing with ramifications, and now she sits on the chair all day not even dealing with reality.

The universe has consequences just for this reason. This is the natural order of things. She needed to be forced by reality to change because of the destruction she caused, but instead she just was able to continue on like nothing ever happened so she learned nothing. You are kind of still doing it, unless you are serious about ending it if she doesn't change now. But now she is in much worse shape. 

It's the same thing as the parents who never discipline their kids, they think they are being kind but they are really preventing them from growing.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

sokillme said:


> Your post is not that unusual. I think lots of men go through this, I believe this is the reason lots of them stay. Lots of men also years later hate the deal they signed up for.
> 
> See my thread in the men's section. You are the textbook man who had his nature as a husband exploited and used against him. TEXTBOOK.
> 
> You are still trying to protect her, telling her with a counselor present, like she is in need of protection from her actions. Still giving her a chance to magically fix this when she lied to you for over a decade. Had sex with another man but refuses to have sex with you. She has been abusing you for over a decade and you still protect her. Something is not right that you continue to do this even now.
> 
> You are the proverbial kid who doesn't stand up to the bully in grade school. You continue to try to nice her enough to get her to treat you well. You misjudge her fundamental nature, you blame the past and the present not her character. Plenty of people have just as bad a past and don't abuse the ones who supports them emotionally and at least partially financially, FOR DECADES. It's her nature not her experiences. Experience makes her want to take the action but she doesn't have to act on those wants.
> 
> You need to read some books on codependency. You have it bad my friend really bad. And if you don't fix it even if you leave her you will just attract the same type of women. You have already wasted a decade. There is SO much better out there. But you are afraid. Again, like the bullied kid in grade school. You should have stood up to the bully when this first happens, your life would have been better for it.
> 
> Do it now.
> 
> 
> 
> I have to be honest even though it's harsh, I think at least as big a problem for you is not your wife but you. Why did you put up with such abuse for SO long? Why did you accept so little. That should be your biggest worry. This is not a healthy reaction. Something is wrong. You need to figure this out and fix it our again you will attract the same type of women. They can smell men like you, and they take advantage. The guy who tries to save them. You have been trying to save your wife for your whole marriage. How has that worked out?



You're right. All of it. I was a doormat for a long time, and maybe I still am to some extent. All I can say to that is I'm a lot better off than I was 15 years ago and while I'm late to the game, at least I'm starting to stick up for myself now. 

But I can't go against my convictions. I can't treat her worse than she treated me. That's vengeance, and I'd rather leave her because it's better for both of us collectively than to throw her out the door like a bad dog.


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## Coping the Best I Can

This is all so eye opening. Thanks to everyone for their input.


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## sokillme

Coping the Best I Can said:


> You're right. All of it. I was a doormat for a long time, and maybe I still am to some extent. All I can say to that is I'm a lot better off than I was 15 years ago and while I'm late to the game, at least I'm starting to stick up for myself now.
> 
> But I can't go against my convictions. I can't treat her worse than she treated me. That's vengeance, and I'd rather leave her because it's better for both of us collectively than to throw her out the door like a bad dog.


You misunderstand me. I am not for hurting her and I am not suggesting revenge. I think you should be kind to her, I think you should make the transition of you leaving as painless as possible, meaning talk calmly about it. Make it business like. Help her move her stuff even because I truly believe that is a honorable way to do it. But you must, MUST detach. You must make it plain that you don't plan on staying (assuming nothing changes). And most importantly no matter what, you MUST (and I can't empathize this enough) you must stop taking ownership of her brokenness. 

Every time you make excuses for her abuse of you. Every time you don't stand up for yourself, which can be done without yelling or being mean about it(basically like a parent with a child). Every time you don't allow consequences of her actions you are hurting yourself and ultimately her. 

Finally you have a moral responsibility to not allow people to continually abuse you. 12 years of lies is 12 years of abuse. There is nothing honorable in allowing that to happen. It is bad for society, it's bad for the institution of marriage, most of all it's bad for you. It's terribly misguided. Again you can't save her from herself she has to do that, but you can save you from yourself. You have allowed yourself to be abused for 12 years. Enough is enough.


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## phillybeffandswiss

You do not have to accept poor behavior because of a person's past. It doesn't mean you have to divorce, separate, reconcile or live in limbo. You can choose which ever thing you want to do, but you do not have to accept the poor behavior.


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## Coping the Best I Can

@sokillme

That's basically where I am right now. As I said, I'm horribly late to the game, but every day that goes by with things the way they are, I feel more and more a failure as a husband and a man. It's hard to stick up for myself and I know I come off as a weakling and a pushover to her. It spills into other areas of my life. 

Strategically I'm trying to get keep her stable until the next MC session. If something happens and she refuses to go, that will ruin everything and I'll never get disclosure. So I'm trying to keep the peace until then. 

But I have every intention of letting her know that if I don't see a dramatic change, if I don't see her helping herself, and if don't get the apology and confession for all of her abuse towards me, I'm going to have to leave. I'm not going to be mean about it, but I will let her know that it's do or die.


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## sokillme

Coping the Best I Can said:


> @sokillme
> 
> That's basically where I am right now. As I said, I'm horribly late to the game, but every day that goes by with things the way they are, I feel more and more a failure as a husband and a man. It's hard to stick up for myself and I know I come off as a weakling and a pushover to her. It spills into other areas of my life.
> 
> Strategically I'm trying to get keep her stable until the next MC session. If something happens and she refuses to go, that will ruin everything and I'll never get disclosure. So I'm trying to keep the peace until then.
> 
> But I have every intention of letting her know that if I don't see a dramatic change, if I don't see her helping herself, and if don't get the apology and confession for all of her abuse towards me, I'm going to have to leave. I'm not going to be mean about it, but I will let her know that it's do or die.


Dude, I am really not trying to put you down. I feel tremendous sympathy for the people who have made choices like you, it's why I post on here. I hate to see the endless suffering. There aren't enough voices encouraging you guys to seek better. Giving you confidence that you don't have to live this way. That it's OK to leave when someone treats you poorly. That that doesn't make you a bad guy. There is hope in leaving sometimes because there is really better out there. Relationships don't have to be the way they are when you are with toxic people. I want you to have hope for something better. I hate to see people settle for less out of fear, or out of some misguided chivalry. 

In the same respect, you have made a bad choice, and you can see that because your situation hasn't gotten better. The main bad choice was not that you stayed with her, it was protecting her from herself. Not demanding the basic level of treatment that any person should demand of any other person no matter relationship or not, that being no one should be allowed to lie to you continually, much more so your wife. 

I am pointing these things out to you not to put you down, but to help you see that YOU NEED TO FIX THIS no matter what you do. Your thinking and your motivation for thinking like this is wrong. It's not healthy. It is going to create problems in all your relationships. You have to demand the basic level of respect from anyone. For whatever reason you haven't done that with this women who is the primary person in your life. That is not good for you. I don't think it is good for society. 

I see it the same why I see it when a women stays with a guy who abuses her. That kind of thing does damage to all of us. But at least in the later case we have set up shelters, hotlines, and support for these women. In cases like yours many people see it as some sort of romantic martyrdom. This is wrong in my opinion. Again I really don't see the difference, one is physical abuse, the other is emotional. Abuse is abuse. (I am not talking about the very rare case when there is true repentance, but true repentance takes years of work and constancy)


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## Evinrude58

You have had 13 years to come up with every possible excuse for your wife's horrible behavior.

She was abused as a child, has kids and marries you and suddenly she equates you as her abuser?
That's not true, it's just looking for an excuse. You are not her abuser. You're the man she made love to and enjoyed sex with and married and had kids with. She knows that.
She's become lazy, indifferent, depressed with life in general-- if she's as you describe.

No you want to know all about her affair and have a "breakthrough".
Not gonna happen. She's not going to tell you squat you don't already know. Why should she? You'll have a witness to her horrible behavior that won't be on her side. Ain't gonna happen. If it did, what do you expect to hear that will help her or you?

Here is what she needs for HER to "heal". It's what lots of people need.
She needs to get off her dead ass and go to work and have to support herself. She needs to get exercise so she won't be depressed. She needs to see consequences of bad behavior like treating her man poorly. She will never change unless you stop coddling her and force her to.

She will die in the couch with a smart phone in one hand and a Twinkie in the other--- if you let her.

Let's face it. WHAT do you have to lose? You have a whole life left with everything to gain by moving on--- or at least filing for divorce and forcing her to get a job or I've out. Either way, she has to get a job.
Stop rolling over. You have done that enough.


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## Coping the Best I Can

Evinrude58 said:


> No you want to know all about her affair and have a "breakthrough".
> Not gonna happen. She's not going to tell you squat you don't already know. Why should she? You'll have a witness to her horrible behavior that won't be on her side. Ain't gonna happen. If it did, what do you expect to hear that will help her or you?


It's not the specifics as much as it is her opening up. I need to hear and see remorse and honesty, even if it ends up killing the marriage. If I can't get that from her then no, the rest is pointless and I will stop. I'm fully expecting her to dig her heels in, cross her arms in defiance and get all defensive and emotional. If it goes that way, at least I can say I tried once more, this time with confidence.


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## farsidejunky

Give defiant people what they want.


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## Evinrude58

Thirteen years and today is the day that you think she's going to "open up". I am doubtful.
I am also doubtful that you aren't going to come up with some new "date" to decide to take action. I know this is hard. But really, you've got to do something. You haven't been happy for 13 years. Why waste another second of your life? Don't you know you can fall in love with someone else and have at least a little happiness?

It's 2017. A man would have a hard time not finding a woman with all the communication equipment available. Yes, it's hard to find one that you love, but it's part of life. Live it.
Cast off your anchor, Captain!

Your anchor is made of lead and weighs more than the state of Texas. It's been dragging you down for years. Cut the rope.......


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## bigfoot

Its like counting to 3 when you don't want to do what you said when you get to 3. 1, 2, 2 and a half, 2 and 3/4,....

Do what you need, but slowing down the count or starting over cause you messed up is not it.


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## Coping the Best I Can

@Evinrude58

The picture isn't as black and white as you're painting it. She's opened up, but gradually. Yes, it's taken a long time and there are a LOT of details that I'm not giving to the thread just so it can stay focused. And I AM doing something about it. I'm expecting and preparing for the worst, but if I can get even a little closure before I end a 19 year relationship, then I will try. If for no other reason but to help me move on. The last thing I need is to dive into some other relationship with huge unanswered questions about the last one. Right now I don't trust women in general because of all of this, and that's not healthy.


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## Evinrude58

Coping the Best I Can said:


> @Evinrude58
> 
> The picture isn't as black and white as you're painting it. She's opened up, but gradually. Yes, it's taken a long time and there are a LOT of details that I'm not giving to the thread just so it can stay focused. And I AM doing something about it. I'm expecting and preparing for the worst, but if I can get even a little closure before I end a 19 year relationship, then I will try. If for no other reason but to help me move on. The last thing I need is to dive into some other relationship with huge unanswered questions about the last one. Right now I don't trust women in general because of all of this, and that's not healthy.


I understand the black and white thing. People say black and white thinking is baaaaaaaaaddd.. LOL

I like to condense things down to simple facts. I guess that is a colorless picture, but it's painted for clarity rather than beauty.

1)Your wife cheated on you 13 years ago, and was not remorseful.
2) She DARED you to divorce her.
3) Now she is depressed, UNWILLING to work, and basically is useless to you as a wife. She is actually a burden to you.
4) The marriage is SEXLESS (am I right? I forget)
5) She won't talk to you about problems, or make any real effort to meet you halfway in anything.
6) You've been unhappy for 13 out of 19 years, all the LAST 13. 
7) You are trying to work your way either out of the marriage, or hoping for an epiphany on her part. 

Are these facts correct, or is there some gray area there?

Hoping to help simplify things. Not trying to in any way be sarcastic or a smartaleck.

So I'm wondering what you hope will happen at the meeting that will help you?

If she's on antidepressants, that's why you're getting no sex. And the fact that she is unmotivated to do anything with her life.

My advice: Get this last piece of whatever puzzle you're building, and make a forward-directed decision about YOUR life. Don't let this anchor weigh you down if the anchor is hung on the bottom and clearly won't ever get back on board the ship.


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## farsidejunky

I would agree with this post if you hadn't used shades of gray to perpetuate 13 years of limbo to this point. This is why you are being encouraged to stop, because it has facilitated your living in denial...*FOR 13 YEARS*.



Coping the Best I Can said:


> @Evinrude58
> 
> The picture isn't as black and white as you're painting it. She's opened up, but gradually. Yes, it's taken a long time and there are a LOT of details that I'm not giving to the thread just so it can stay focused. And I AM doing something about it. I'm expecting and preparing for the worst, but if I can get even a little closure before I end a 19 year relationship, then I will try. If for no other reason but to help me move on. The last thing I need is to dive into some other relationship with huge unanswered questions about the last one. Right now I don't trust women in general because of all of this, and that's not healthy.


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## Coping the Best I Can

@Evinrude58

My responses are in red:



Evinrude58 said:


> I understand the black and white thing. People say black and white thinking is baaaaaaaaaddd.. LOL
> 
> I like to condense things down to simple facts. I guess that is a colorless picture, but it's painted for clarity rather than beauty.
> 
> 1)Your wife cheated on you 13 years ago, and was not remorseful.
> In the beginning she was not remorseful, and insisted that although it was wrong, she felt justified. Over the years, the remorse and regret started to come out, but never fully. Now she wants to look at it as "in the past" and not discuss it. Instead of my bringing it up, MC will bring it up in next meeting.
> 2) She DARED you to divorce her.
> Yes - many times, for 5-7 years after the D-Day. Now her catchphrase is "you're stuck with me no matter what."
> 3) Now she is depressed, UNWILLING to work, and basically is useless to you as a wife. She is actually a burden to you.
> Since 2014, she has been this way. I tried to divorce her then and she said "give me 6 months" We started with current MC around that time. Yes, she is basically a burden to me now.
> 4) The marriage is SEXLESS (am I right? I forget)
> Sexless since 2014. General affection is sporadic, but part of that is me, because I have a hard time receiving it as much as giving it due to everything.
> 5) She won't talk to you about problems, or make any real effort to meet you halfway in anything.
> At home she won't discuss anything controversial (basically the things she knows she's lying about). Other things we can come to a meeting of the minds on.
> 6) You've been unhappy for 13 out of 19 years, all the LAST 13.
> That's an exaggeration. It's not been all gloom for 13 years. There have been wonderful moments, but when a bad moment happens, it brings back all the other bad, makes her afraid, makes me angry at the situation, and it snowballs from there, until we get over it and move on. Right now we're just coasting. Nothing really good, just "keeping the peace."
> 7) You are trying to work your way either out of the marriage, or hoping for an epiphany on her part.
> I'm trying to work my way to getting her to open up and finally apologize the right way. I'm not expecting an epiphany. What happens after that will all depend on how she responds.
> 
> Are these facts correct, or is there some gray area there?



That's the best I can clarify for you at the moment.




Evinrude58 said:


> So I'm wondering what you hope will happen at the meeting that will help you?


Again - I'm hoping she'll open up, tell me the rest about the affair, and give me a heartfelt apology.



Evinrude58 said:


> If she's on antidepressants, that's why you're getting no sex. And the fact that she is unmotivated to do anything with her life.


She's not on antidepressants. Refuses to use them. What I'm not telling you is why the sex stopped in 2014. I started to talk divorce then because she was using multiple friends (online and off) as a sounding board to complain about our marriage. I caught her doing this. This is when the sex stopped and she got angry at me.


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## Evinrude58

She's purposefully refusing you sex, you pay all the bills, she plays games................. God, I'd boot her so fast, really..... You are putting up with outrageous behavior. The refusing sex for years because she's angry? LOL, you truly have trained her to believe she in invincible and that you will put up with any amount of crap. She is low drive at best. It makes me curious if the other years before she stopped all sex, how frequent it was.

You won't get a heartfelt apology--- it's not in her.

My hope for YOU:

Get a divorce. Get out from under this burdenous, cold, vengeful, disloyal, lazy, unapologetic, deceitful, unhappy, characterless person and find yourself a "normal" person. 

My fears for you: You will stay married to her in misery.
You are going to kick your own ass for staying in misery so long after you get in a relationship with a decent person.


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## Coping the Best I Can

Wow. 

I've read a lot of threads on TAM, mostly for information about specific topics, but when it comes to divorce, I never noticed just how definitive people can get when affairs are involved. It's not that simple, folks. 19 years is a lot of time. The memories are everything from great, hurtful, happy, ecstatic, loving, betrayed, erotic, vengeful, tender, depressing... I can go on. You can't just throw all that away. There are a lot of other things too - a house, family, jobs, mutual friendships and other relationships - the simple fact that we lived in the same area for so long and it's not just "me," it's "us" to a lot of people. That's hard to undo. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's a lot.

I guess I was hoping people would take all that into consideration before throwing up the "she's a burdenous, cold, vengeful, disloyal, lazy, unapologetic, deceitful, unhappy, characterless person" and you should throw her out like a bad piece of meat right now and get on with your life.

I came here partly to vent, and partly to hear from people who have been through similar situations. 

Thank you @Thor and @Affaircare and some others for taking a more understanding approach to what is a very complex and delicate situation that I don't want to end up worse than already is - divorce or not.


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## TX-SC

Coping the Best I Can said:


> Wow.
> 
> I've read a lot of threads on TAM, mostly for information about specific topics, but when it comes to divorce, I never noticed just how definitive people can get when affairs are involved. It's not that simple, folks. 19 years is a lot of time. The memories are everything from great, hurtful, happy, ecstatic, loving, betrayed, erotic, vengeful, tender, depressing... I can go on. You can't just throw all that away. There are a lot of other things too - a house, family, jobs, mutual friendships and other relationships - the simple fact that we lived in the same area for so long and it's not just "me," it's "us" to a lot of people. That's hard to undo. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's a lot.
> 
> I guess I was hoping people would take all that into consideration before throwing up the "she's a burdenous, cold, vengeful, disloyal, lazy, unapologetic, deceitful, unhappy, characterless person" and you should throw her out like a bad piece of meat right now and get on with your life.
> 
> I came here partly to vent, and partly to hear from people who have been through similar situations.
> 
> Thank you @Thor and @Affaircare and some others for taking a more understanding approach to what is a very complex and delicate situation that I don't want to end up worse than already is - divorce or not.


It's a fairly typical response for TAM. Take what you can use and ignore what you can't. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders in that regard. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


----------



## sokillme

Coping the Best I Can said:


> @Evinrude58
> 
> My responses are in red:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the best I can clarify for you at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again - I'm hoping she'll open up, tell me the rest about the affair, and give me a heartfelt apology.
> 
> 
> 
> She's not on antidepressants. Refuses to use them. What I'm not telling you is why the sex stopped in 2014. I started to talk divorce then because she was using multiple friends (online and off) as a sounding board to complain about our marriage. I caught her doing this. This is when the sex stopped and she got angry at me.


What do you think you are saving? The marriage sounds about as bad as it can get. She cheats on you then complains to friends about you? Are you in IC? You need to be. You have allowed yourself to be bullied about as bad as I can get. There is so much better. You are going to kick yourself if you find that. You are going to rule the day you wasted so much time. And she is going to be the same old toxic person, but at least it will be from afar.


----------



## drifting on

Coping the Best I Can said:


> @Evinrude58
> 
> The picture isn't as black and white as you're painting it. She's opened up, but gradually. Yes, it's taken a long time and there are a LOT of details that I'm not giving to the thread just so it can stay focused. And I AM doing something about it. I'm expecting and preparing for the worst, but if I can get even a little closure before I end a 19 year relationship, then I will try. If for no other reason but to help me move on. The last thing I need is to dive into some other relationship with huge unanswered questions about the last one. Right now I don't trust women in general because of all of this, and that's not healthy.




Your last two sentences will ring true the rest of your natural life regardless of your wife opening up. Once you have been cheated on the doubt is forever planted in the back of your head. It doesn't go away because you know everything about your spouses affair. This was something I found very difficult to accept, and all the therapy in the world won't make it go away. From your posts I get the impression you think if you know all of the affair, you will cope better. You think you will be able to get past this once it is discussed in therapy. The fact your wife had an affair is bad to start with, but for the following thirteen years she just continues with terrible choices one after the other. 

What you don't see coming is actually nudging you at this very moment. It will get much worse and you are about to be run over hard. The worst part, what's about to run you over is a train, and it has more boxcars then you could ever imagine. It's called resentment, it's nudging you because your wife has done everything from the affair to now wrong. Her opening up, that's just going to be the first hit, then the talking bad about you and your marriage, then because she got caught talking bad she refuses sex to you. When she opens up you are going to be more mad then any time of your life, and then the resentment hits you, and you understand she is treating you this way to actually use you. Enlightenment on your end is going to spark a rage only an animal can relate to.

Now she says your stuck with her? Really? Does she not think you have it in you to divorce? Your reply to her should have been in stuck with taxes for life, but a simple bolt cutter frees my leg of you. You need to understand what is coming, you need to have her back up against the wall, and you need to enforce what you say in words. Because her back is far from any wall, she feels no pressure at all, and at MC you and your therapist are in for a big surprise. She won't shut down, she won't open up, and she won't feel backed into a corner, all she has to do is simply stand up and walk out. What will you do then? Whatever you say you will do I doubt you will do, you haven't yet, so why is this time going to be the time? I'm not being harsh, I'm genuinely asking you because from every post you've written on this thread, I don't see you completing an action.

Also remember I am in reconciliation, I'm not someone who leans towards reconciliation or divorce. I'll support whatever you decide, but in my opinion the reconciliation wagon was never even around to try and jump on to. Your wife and her decisions have kept the wagon from entering town for the last thirteen years.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Coping the Best I Can said:


> \
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again - I'm hoping she'll open up, tell me the rest about the affair, and give me a heartfelt apology.


You should be in Individual Counseling, not marriage counseling, she broke you and you don't even realize what a good job she has done. I say it harshly to wake you up. Read what you wrote in red and realize you ACCEPTED this when SHE WAS IN THE WRONG. No, I am not saying you were a perfect husband, nor do you need to divorce, but until she really thought you might leave she didn't try. Then she gave you an ultimatum for her. You do realize, the aggrieved is supposed to say "1-6 months and I am out." She said it for you and there you are still typing the above quote.

It's funny how many people point out the stonewalling divorce side, but ignore the entire all marriages can be saved stonewalling reconciliation crowd. You know where people point out, it was long ago, you scared her, you aren't being a leader etc etc.

It is ugly on both sides, but you are scared to entertain the idea so, you are hedging and your wife used this against you for the last 13 years. Go back and read what you wrote, you have shown ABSOLUTELY NOTHING which would keep people on the fence.


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## Malaise

Good memories aside, I see nothing in her behavior that says ' keep me '.

And @drifting on is right about the resentment. When you realize you've wasted so much time ( irreplaceable time ) you'll not only resent her but hate yourself .


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## TheTruthHurts

Great memories are just that - memories. They make us who we are.

Please separate that idea from ideas about your future. You can have a future with or without her but still have your good memories.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## naiveonedave

Coping the Best I Can said:


> I've read a lot of threads on TAM, mostly for information about specific topics, but when it comes to divorce, I never noticed just how definitive people can get when affairs are involved. It's not that simple, folks. 19 years is a lot of time. The memories are everything from great, hurtful, happy, ecstatic, loving, betrayed, erotic, vengeful, tender, depressing... I can go on. You can't just throw all that away. There are a lot of other things too - a house, family, jobs, mutual friendships and other relationships - the simple fact that we lived in the same area for so long and it's not just "me," it's "us" to a lot of people. That's hard to undo. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's a lot.
> 
> I guess I was hoping people would take all that into consideration before throwing up the "she's a burdenous, cold, vengeful, disloyal, lazy, unapologetic, deceitful, unhappy, characterless person" and you should throw her out like a bad piece of meat right now and get on with your life.


You do realize that 19 years of memories don't go away if you D or if you R? The past is the past. Staying with someone just do to history is a sunk cost fallacy. Your only real questions are: will my life improve if I D? Is R even possible? Will my life improve if we can R?

Based on your posts in this thread, the answers are Yes, No, No and it is obvious, unless we are missing something.


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## Popcorn2015

It's odd that nobody has suggested "No More Mr. Nice Guy" yet, because @Coping the Best I Can you really should give it a read.

I can't link it directly, but it's the top result on this page: https://www.google.com/search?q=no+more+mr+nice+guy+pdf

(You can also buy it from Amazon)


----------



## Finwe

How will you know when you get all the information? Her memory will be a bit fuzzy after so long. 

At what point will you be satisfied? If she said she only did x, y, and z; you may suspect she did a, b, and c too.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Popcorn2015 said:


> It's odd that nobody has suggested "No More Mr. Nice Guy" yet, because @Coping the Best I Can you really should give it a read.
> 
> I can't link it directly, but it's the top result on this page: https://www.google.com/search?q=no+more+mr+nice+guy+pdf
> 
> (You can also buy it from Amazon)


As someone noted earlier, to me at any rate, this sounds much more like codependency than a man up situation.


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## Coping the Best I Can

phillybeffandswiss said:


> As someone noted earlier, to me at any rate, this sounds much more like codependency than a man up situation.



It was codependency in the beginning. I worshiped her in the wrong way from the start. I've grown up and I haven't been that way for a while (again - 19 years is a long time). 

I've read NMMNG several years ago. It helped a lot.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Coping the Best I Can said:


> It was codependency in the beginning. I worshiped her in the wrong way from the start. I've grown up and I haven't been that way for a while (again - 19 years is a long time).
> 
> I've read NMMNG several years ago. It helped a lot.


I'm going by everything you type in anger, sadness, hope, lashing out and defense including this post. So, we will just have to disagree.


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## Coping the Best I Can

There was someone she met online that she was supposed to stop talking to and texting 3 years ago. She never met this person (in another state) but basically he was a sounding board for her to complain about me to. I saw her texts back then and most of what she talked about was made up stories. She got the pity party from this guy. 

Well... just because my paranoia is at an all time high, I decided to take a peek at cell phone bill logs today. She never stopped contacting this person. 

Other things I found in the cell phone logs are late night texts with someone else out of town as well, like at 1:00 am, after I go to sleep because I work for a living. 

My trust in her is completely erased. I'm not saying a word about it until we meet with MC next week though. I want to see how she tries to explain it.


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## Tatsuhiko

So you haven't been intimate in 3 years, but she's been secretly speaking with at least one other man for the past 3 years, all the way up to the present day.

MC is a waste of your money. She sees you as a paycheck to support her lifestyle and has the gall to complain about you to her EA lovers. And all the while she supposedly doesn't want to lose you. Well of course, she doesn't. Who wants to lose a paycheck? You get to work, she gets to talk to her lovers and sleep in. Your money would be better spent on a divorce attorney instead of hearing how well she can lie to the MC.

At least get a head start on the divorce process while you wait for the MC appointment.


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## farsidejunky

Agreed that bringing this up in MC is a waste of time.

File. Have her served. Walk away.


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## Tatsuhiko

Coping the Best I Can said:


> I guess I was hoping people would take all that into consideration before throwing up the "she's a burdenous, cold, vengeful, disloyal, lazy, unapologetic, deceitful, unhappy, characterless person and you should throw her out like a bad piece of meat right now and get on with your life."


You know what? She is, and you should.


----------



## drifting on

Coping the Best I Can said:


> There was someone she met online that she was supposed to stop talking to and texting 3 years ago. She never met this person (in another state) but basically he was a sounding board for her to complain about me to. I saw her texts back then and most of what she talked about was made up stories. She got the pity party from this guy.
> 
> Well... just because my paranoia is at an all time high, I decided to take a peek at cell phone bill logs today. She never stopped contacting this person.
> 
> Other things I found in the cell phone logs are late night texts with someone else out of town as well, like at 1:00 am, after I go to sleep because I work for a living.
> 
> My trust in her is completely erased. I'm not saying a word about it until we meet with MC next week though. I want to see how she tries to explain it.



I guess I'm just at a loss, you have come here defending your wife and saying nineteen years of marriage should count for something. That the people who have told you to divorce aren't taking into account your nineteen years of wedded bliss. Your wife has had an affair, talked to, well at least more then one, about how terrible of a husband and marriage she has. Yet if she opens up emotionally you'll continue the marriage of bliss without any intimacy. 

Truly I wonder why you are going to MC, why you are waiting to expose this new finding in MC, you should be taking her to your lawyers office to have her sign the divorce papers. Reason for divorce is because of adultery naming your ex friend and that she has continued an EA online. MC is pointless, and if your MC hasn't told you this, he isn't worth anything. Honestly, I'm not even mad at your situation or that your marriage, term used loosely by the way, because you have lost all self respect for yourself. I'm truly stunned that anyone would accept this type of living, which makes me now understand her comment of you are stuck with me. You are stuck with her because of your inability to exercise action and stand on your own two feet.


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## Evinrude58

No doubt she has zero feelings for you and us 100% using you for a place to stay and a paycheck.

Want the truth? Keep wanting. You'll never get any from your wife.

She's going to rape you in a divorce if she can. She has no conscience.


----------



## Be smart

Sometimes TAM members like to say Divorce her/him and that includes me,but in your case it is 100% true. 

She Cheats,lies about it,tells horrible stories about you to Friends and Family. Have Emotional Affairs with some guys she never met. No sex for 3 years,no kisses for 3 years.

She doesnt work,spend her free time chating with some online guys,complaining about you and your Marriage. 

Now ask yourself a question,do you really want to be with this woman ? 

Good luck to you my Friend,you are going to need it.


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## eric1

Coping the Best I Can said:


> There was someone she met online that she was supposed to stop talking to and texting 3 years ago. She never met this person (in another state) but basically he was a sounding board for her to complain about me to. I saw her texts back then and most of what she talked about was made up stories. She got the pity party from this guy.
> 
> Well... just because my paranoia is at an all time high, I decided to take a peek at cell phone bill logs today. She never stopped contacting this person.
> 
> Other things I found in the cell phone logs are late night texts with someone else out of town as well, like at 1:00 am, after I go to sleep because I work for a living.
> 
> My trust in her is completely erased. I'm not saying a word about it until we meet with MC next week though. I want to see how she tries to explain it.




There are many grey areas in infidelity. Bringing someone who is lying to marriage counselling is a universal waste of time.

You need to investigate who these other people are. Blow up their lives. Blow up your wife by having papers served. STEP NUMBER ONE WITHOUT HESITATION AND WITH ABSOLUTELY ZERO QUESTION IS TO FIRST EXTRACT YOURSELF FROM THE ABUSE CYCLE OF INFIDELITY.

Your wife put you in this position. Filing paperwork is all you can do given her repeated cheating. At that point you need to detach, very firmly communicate your relationship boundaries and then (the difficult part) the ball is now entirely in her court with how to save the marriage that she unilaterally ended. She may not be able to even with all of the right steps.


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## Evinrude58

D I V O R C E her.

She is wretched.

Marriage counseling is a bad joke with this woman. You don't need a marriage counselor, you need a shrink for both of you if you continue this relationship.

You don't have to live this way. You're CHOOSING to.


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## TDSC60

We know what benefit she gets from marriage to you. Financial support, time alone to conduct on-line affairs while you work, a partner who accepts a sexless marriage, her freedom to do as she likes.

How do you benefit from marriage to her?


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## Evinrude58

Do you know that there are unmarried women among us that love sex and kissing and will give you back rubs and clean house and actually contribute?

My friend, YOU can have one of these. However, the ones I mention don't like dating married men. Please fix this obstacle of married status as soon as possible.

Oh, and one more thing: it's ok to find happiness. You wanted a marriage. You didn't sign on for what you're getting now.


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## drifting on

Coping,

I understand you are feeling like everyone is giving you a 2X4 and not understanding of your position. So I'm going to take a different approach to see if you can relate to this. Imagine you weigh 800 pounds, it takes you one hour to get out of bed, if you are even able to. You are on disability as you can't work at this weight, you head out to your car and squeeze behind the wheel. You drive to McDonalds for your daily lunch. That's right lunch, because it takes so much time to shower, dress, walk to the car and get in. You order your usual order of 7 Big Macs, 3 double cheeseburgers, 4 filet o fish, 2 large fries, and a small Diet Coke. My question to you would be, why not drive to a gym instead and improve your life?

Now let's say your wife weighs 800 pounds, doesnt work, plays video games, and chats with men online. You bring her the lunch order from above, you get no kiss, no intimacy, but she does say thank you. Would you see yourself as an enabler to her way of life? Would you see that as she can't get out of bed to get mcdonalds, you could instead give her 15 salads instead? She still says thank you, but no kisses or intimacy. Why would you stay? What could you possibly be gaining from this relationship? What are you receiving from this relationship that is fulfilling to you? Because for the life of me I can't find one single reason to stay. When is the last time she looked at you and without provocation just said I love you?


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## harrybrown

Forget MC. You are dealing with a serial cheater.

File for D. Keep the evidence and give to your attorney.

Tell her to go see her lovers. Blow it up for her lovers also.

They can have her.


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## TheTruthHurts

@Coping the Best I Can I think you seek what virtually all BS seek - you want to see her admit her affairs and you want vindication. You want her to have that moment where she sees that you know it all and breaks down and confesses... and asked for forgiveness.

I suspect that's what you want MC for - not actually counseling on the M.

It's understandable. But it won't happen this way and I think you know it.

Your only move toward happiness is acceptance. When you accept, you will stop fighting this and stop defending her.

I honestly think sometimes people just need permission to let go of their hopes and accept the bad truths in life. You can't fix this so it's ok to admit that 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Thor

When the Nice Guy pairs up with the CSA victim it is the Perfect Storm. Someone mentioned the cycle of abuse of infidelity. It is more basic than that in the Perfect Storm, it is the cycle of abuse. The abuse she suffered is now being passed onto you. You are being abused by her.

Regardless of whatever she has suffered, it does not justify her abusing you. I think this is one of the difficult things for the Nice Guy to grasp. We tend to have empathy for what she's been through, and for some reason excuse her bad behavior because of it. But this does not honor our own well being. Additionally, we do her no favors by putting up with this bad behavior. Just like letting the bratty child get away with tantrums and physical violence, the child will never learn healthy behavior. And, the child will have an unhappy life.

Your wife has been rewarded for her terrible behaviors. Continuing to let her abuse you will only result in her being further motivated to abuse you. She is taking out her contempt and anger on you. Your latest discovery that she's been contacting other men despite saying she had stopped is but one example.

Doc Glover in No More Mr. Nice Guy says to never accept unacceptable behavior. This is a key point which needs more emphasis. Nice Guys do accept the unacceptable. The thing to remember here is that whatever the underlying cause, it does not excuse her abusive behavior. Knowing of her abuse is only useful to you in giving some idea of likely prognosis. That's where the Nice Guy goes wrong, excusing her behavior because the precipitating events were not of her doing.

You're wanting her to be someone she isn't and probably never was.


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## Coping the Best I Can

All of you are correct about most everything. She is a serial cheater, she continues with unacceptable behavior and I condone it, and she is abusing me. I get it - probably always have but never did anything about it. I am the Nice Guy. It's not a good place to be with a person like this. I really don't know if she's aware of what she's doing or not, but at this point does it really matter? Probably not.

One thing I do know is I won't get anywhere with her if I get emotional and throw the book at her in anger. She'll get defensive and make everything, including D, even more difficult. She won't talk about anything unless in front of MC, so I'm going to calmly give her my side and say I can't trust her any more and unless she accepts and commits to an entirely new way of life that includes working, no phone after a certain time period, and regular checking up on her (among other things), joining a support group etc., then this isn't going to work and we will need to end the marriage. 

NOW - I say all the above with the expectation that she will not accept and not commit. If she pitches a fit about my requirements, then I will calmly say it's over. All this will be in front of the MC, because right now it's the only way to assure she will listen. If I try it at home she will get emotional and angry and it will become more of a mess. Last time I tried D she threw away every marriage picture in the house and told everyone we collectively knew "HE'S DIVORCING ME!" I'm still dealing with that fallout. I know a lot of you think it's a waste of money, but even in the reality of D, I need to at least try to keep the peace. 

All the alphas on the forum are saying kick her out to the curb. I'm not an alpha and probably never will be, so please accept that reality when offering advice, and don't expect me to do all this with the bravado I've seen in some replies. I can be strong and definitive when I need to, as long as I'm prepared.


----------



## naiveonedave

Coping the Best I Can said:


> All of you are correct about most everything. She is a serial cheater, she continues with unacceptable behavior and I condone it, and she is abusing me. I get it - probably always have but never did anything about it. I am the Nice Guy. It's not a good place to be with a person like this. I really don't know if she's aware of what she's doing or not, but at this point does it really matter? Probably not.
> 
> One thing I do know is I won't get anywhere with her if I get emotional and throw the book at her in anger. She'll get defensive and make everything, including D, even more difficult. She won't talk about anything unless in front of MC, so I'm going to calmly give her my side and say I can't trust her any more and unless she accepts and commits to an entirely new way of life that includes working, no phone after a certain time period, and regular checking up on her (among other things), joining a support group etc., then this isn't going to work and we will need to end the marriage.
> 
> NOW - I say all the above with the expectation that she will not accept and not commit. If she pitches a fit about my requirements, then I will calmly say it's over. All this will be in front of the MC, because right now it's the only way to assure she will listen. If I try it at home she will get emotional and angry and it will become more of a mess. Last time I tried D she threw away every marriage picture in the house and told everyone we collectively knew "HE'S DIVORCING ME!" I'm still dealing with that fallout. I know a lot of you think it's a waste of money, but even in the reality of D, I need to at least try to keep the peace.
> 
> All the alphas on the forum are saying kick her out to the curb. I'm not an alpha and probably never will be, so please accept that reality when offering advice, and don't expect me to do all this with the bravado I've seen in some replies. I can be strong and definitive when I need to, as long as I'm prepared.


you need to STOP CARING about WHAT SHE THINKS and how SHE ACTS. Just D, and let the chips fall where they may. If people other than immediate family ask why, you can say anywhere from none of your business, to I don't let my W have a boyfriend. Your parents and her parents need the truth.

Who cares about the fallout? D for you will be much better, no matter how much fall out there is. You have to be able to see that and value yourself enough to believe it.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

naiveonedave said:


> you need to STOP CARING about WHAT SHE THINKS and how SHE ACTS. Just D, and let the chips fall where they may. If people other than immediate family ask why, you can say anywhere from none of your business, to I don't let my W have a boyfriend. Your parents and her parents need the truth.
> 
> Who cares about the fallout? D for you will be much better, no matter how much fall out there is. You have to be able to see that and value yourself enough to believe it.



You really need to ask? Well, let's see....

1. My BANK ACCOUNT cares. If we agree to D and do it peacefully then maybe, just maybe, my savings will remain somewhat intact. I know her well enough to expect her to say she doesn't want anything from me except the essentials (like her car, which I'm happy to give her and take the payments off my plate). But if it gets nasty then she will try for more. She's reactive. If I approach her with a modicum of civility, she will do the same. 

2. What's left of my REPUTATION. A LOT of people know us and a LOT of people associate us as one unit. Not just family and close friends but groups, churches, people we know from participating in the community. If I have a chance at salvaging a fraction of those relationships (some of which I desperately need) through a somewhat amicable divorce procedure, then you bet your ass I'm going to try. 


Get off your high alpha horse and stop throwing around the "Just D" phrase like it's that easy.


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## GusPolinski

Divorce itself is rarely easy, but the _decision_ to divorce -- _especially_ in your case -- should be very easy.


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## Coping the Best I Can

GusPolinski said:


> Divorce itself is rarely easy, but the _decision_ to divorce -- _especially_ in your case -- should be very easy.



I _decided _to divorce her years ago. I failed at actually doing it. But I did try.


----------



## honcho

Coping the Best I Can said:


> You really need to ask? Well, let's see....
> 
> 1. My BANK ACCOUNT cares. If we agree to D and do it peacefully then maybe, just maybe, my savings will remain somewhat intact. I know her well enough to expect her to say she doesn't want anything from me except the essentials (like her car, which I'm happy to give her and take the payments off my plate). But if it gets nasty then she will try for more. She's reactive. If I approach her with a modicum of civility, she will do the same.
> 
> 2. What's left of my REPUTATION. A LOT of people know us and a LOT of people associate us as one unit. Not just family and close friends but groups, churches, people we know from participating in the community. If I have a chance at salvaging a fraction of those relationships (some of which I desperately need) through a somewhat amicable divorce procedure, then you bet your ass I'm going to try.
> 
> 
> Get off your high alpha horse and stop throwing around the "Just D" phrase like it's that easy.


Do not kid yourself that trying to be nice is going to save your money and reputation. That's not an alpha/beta discussion, you've been married a long time, she doesn't work full time and not in great health. She will not just walk away with the essentials and go quietly into the night and if you believe this your being foolish. She doesn't want to divorce you, she wants the status quo. Prepare for nasty no matter how much you hope nice works.


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## GusPolinski

Coping the Best I Can said:


> I _decided _to divorce her years ago. I failed at actually doing it. But I did try.


Get it done, sir. It's the only way you'll ever have any peace.

Sorry man.


----------



## farsidejunky

Coping the Best I Can said:


> You really need to ask? Well, let's see....
> 
> 1. My BANK ACCOUNT cares. If we agree to D and do it peacefully then maybe, just maybe, my savings will remain somewhat intact. I know her well enough to expect her to say she doesn't want anything from me except the essentials (like her car, which I'm happy to give her and take the payments off my plate). But if it gets nasty then she will try for more. She's reactive. If I approach her with a modicum of civility, she will do the same.
> 
> 2. What's left of my REPUTATION. A LOT of people know us and a LOT of people associate us as one unit. Not just family and close friends but groups, churches, people we know from participating in the community. If I have a chance at salvaging a fraction of those relationships (some of which I desperately need) through a somewhat amicable divorce procedure, then you bet your ass I'm going to try.
> 
> 
> Get off your high alpha horse and stop throwing around the "Just D" phrase like it's that easy.


Frankly, brother, your anger is misplaced. Each person encouraging you to divorce is trying to get you to understand that you should love yourself too much to tolerate a spouse who does this. 

Every argument, minimization, excuse, justification, or lash-out you post is simply you reinforcing that your self worth is too low to accept that you deserve better than she is treating you.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

farsidejunky said:


> Frankly, brother, your anger is misplaced. Each person encouraging you to divorce is trying to get you to understand that you should love yourself too much to tolerate a spouse who does this.
> 
> Every argument, minimization, excuse, justification, or lash-out you post is simply you reinforcing that your self worth is too low to accept that you deserve better than she is treating you.


The decision is not the issue any more. Every person is different and she doesn't do well with the direct approach. It just doesn't work to say "you did this, this, and this, and I'm not taking it any more and we're divorcing." That's blindsiding her. And when she's blindsided her defenses go up. When her defenses go up she can get nasty and vindictive when you're trying to work with her. Why would I want to do that if I know that's going to make everything more difficult? I have to do it differently.

If we wake up tomorrow morning and after coffee I say "oh, here's your divorce papers, consider yourself served," with no preparation or forewarning that will wreak more havoc than the divorce itself! If my self worth was as low as you're purporting I wouldn't be here talking about wanting to do this, and that's a lot better than I was 2 years ago or even 2 weeks ago. But it has to be a process - first an attempt to R, then an ultimatum, then D. 

And still, this is hard as hell to do! @naiveonedave has been married for 20+ years according to his profile. I'll take that to mean he hasn't divorced any time recently, so it's really easy to throw that D word like it's a piece of cake.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Just to forewarn you, your wife will not play nice in divorce, no matter what. Reading the past 11 pages has revealed that about her character. She will vengefully try to destroy you and grab at every last penny. Do you not know her well enough already to see this truth? This is a woman who makes up lies about you to disparage you to strange men. You think she won't do that for an attorney or a judge? You will accomplish nothing by trying to get her to play nice. Nice is for decent, loving people. Stop projecting your own kind personality onto her.


----------



## GusPolinski

Coping the Best I Can said:


> The decision is not the issue any more. Every person is different and she doesn't do well with the direct approach. It just doesn't work to say "you did this, this, and this, and I'm not taking it any more and we're divorcing." That's blindsiding her. And when she's blindsided her defenses go up. When her defenses go up she can get nasty and vindictive when you're trying to work with her. Why would I want to do that if I know that's going to make everything more difficult? I have to do it differently.
> 
> If we wake up tomorrow morning and after coffee I say "oh, here's your divorce papers, consider yourself served," with no preparation or forewarning that will wreak more havoc than the divorce itself! If my self worth was as low as you're purporting I wouldn't be here talking about wanting to do this, and that's a lot better than I was 2 years ago or even 2 weeks ago. But it has to be a process - first an attempt to R, then an ultimatum, then D.
> 
> And still, this is hard as hell to do! @naiveonedave has been married for 20+ years according to his profile. I'll take that to mean he hasn't divorced any time recently, so it's really easy to throw that D word like it's a piece of cake.


Sorry man, but @farsidejunky is spot on --

If you wanted to divorce, you'd be much farther along than you currently are.

You should be well beyond any considerations of reconciliation with this woman, and an ultimatum -- regardless of preparation or timing -- isn't going to work here.

She's got _exactly_ the life that she wants -- all the sex, affection, and attention that she wants (and from multiple lovers) -- and a chump to fund it all.

She's not going to give that up easily, regardless of how you try to package and sell it.

You say that you're trying to wear her down into accepting the outcome that you want, but all the while it's you that's being worn down.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

Tatsuhiko said:


> Just to forewarn you, your wife will not play nice in divorce, no matter what. Reading the past 11 pages has revealed that about her character. She will vengefully try to destroy you and grab at every last penny. Do you not know her well enough already to see this truth? This is a woman who makes up lies about you to disparage you to strange men. You think she won't do that for an attorney or a judge? You will accomplish nothing by trying to get her to play nice. Nice is for decent, loving people. Stop projecting your own kind personality onto her.


This is where online forum communication really sucks. All the nuance is left out and people can only make their opinion based on how they interpret what they read on a screen. When we had moments of reconciliation through the years she would jokingly say "you're stuck with me," meaning "I'm in this for the long haul we'll get through this," not "I'm here to continue making your life a living hell."

We started the D talks before, several times. One time I remember it was peaceful and she was cooperative. Another time when I was getting emotional and throwing jabs at her she threatened to sue for alimony. Both times we stopped before making it final to try to work on R again. 

She makes up lies about me to disparage me to strange men because she has a mental problem where she lives in a fantasy world, most likely as an escape from her CSA trauma memories. The fact that I acknowledge this doesn't mean I'm defending her and it doesn't mean I won't divorce her. I made it quite clear that I can't take that kind of abuse any more. MC and I agree that while she may look at it as all fun and games and make believe, if she thought it enough to write it or tell it to someone, then it's real. THIS is what I see as not changing, and this is why I will need to divorce. Not because she's a lying vengeful ***** who deserves every bit of hell I can give her because she gave it to me.

Again - this is a forum and you don't know the rest of the story. You've never seen her (or me) in real life. She's a decent person with a serious commitment issue because she's scared of men, especially family. Her affairs are a form of escape. It doesn't make it right and I don't approve or accept them. It will probably lead to D, whether it's now or in the future. Right now I'm doing the best I can to make it happen sooner than later but it's a process.

Another thing the forum doesn't know is my character. I'm an introvert - I need to go into my quiet little corner and think about everything before I make a move on most everything (although I kick ass at improvising in the kitchen!). This forum is that corner. So despite what everyone is thinking, all the comments are helping me sort stuff out in my own head. My reactive responses to everyone are just part of that process. An old friend once described my brain as "the committee."


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## Evinrude58

If you think it's possible to divorce a woman like this "amicably", you're crazier than she is.

Just stay married like you want, cut out her smart phone, internet access, access to bank acct, limit everything.

Make life a little easier on you, harder on her and the cheating much more difficult.

You have trained her to be your child that you are going to have to take care of. You will supply all her needs, like it or not. Staying married will at least give you a little say in where your money goes.
You don't have to decide on divorcing, then.

You hold the purse strings now.
Make done adjustments to make Your life easier. I'd move to a smaller, trashier, cheaper house in a crappy neighborhood and start squirreling money away. In 5 years, she'd be ready to go and I'd have the savings to finance the divorce with.

Or just keep the status quo and enable your wife to have boyfriends.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

GusPolinski said:


> You say that you're trying to wear her down into accepting the outcome that you want, but all the while it's you that's being worn down.


 @GusPolinski I'd like to know where exactly I said I'm trying to wear her down into accepting the outcome.


----------



## GusPolinski

Coping the Best I Can said:


> @GusPolinski I'd like to know where exactly I said I'm trying to wear her down into accepting the outcome.


You're kidding, right?


----------



## Herschel

Coping the Best I Can said:


> The decision is not the issue any more. Every person is different and she doesn't do well with the direct approach. It just doesn't work to say "you did this, this, and this, and I'm not taking it any more and we're divorcing." That's blindsiding her. And when she's blindsided her defenses go up. When her defenses go up she can get nasty and vindictive when you're trying to work with her. Why would I want to do that if I know that's going to make everything more difficult? I have to do it differently.


I get what your saying, but, you want to know what one of the most liberating feelings I ever had was?

I was in an argument with my ex and she was doing her thing, turning it around on me, getting fired up and really, just being her. I told her to eff off, I don't have to deal with your crap anymore. I don't have to worry about how you have to take things because all that did was STRESS ME OUT!

Look man, I don't know you, nor do I know your situation more than you have told us. We get that there are nuances. You know what? You don't even realize how much you have given up from yourself BESIDES the sex. You will see one day, when it's all over, how much you weren't the person you wish you were.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

GusPolinski said:


> You're kidding, right?


Are you referring to my having to call her out on things I know and asking for the rest of the story? At this point I'm practically over that. It's the lies that need to stop, whether by D or by confession. Or both.


----------



## harrybrown

Go see several attorneys around town. 

get some advice on your divorce.


Take the evidence that you have to your attorney. The Divorce court usually does not care about the cheating, but it is good to have it in the records.

You should do this now and stop waiting for the MC to make any difference.

Have her get a job.

Maybe she will run away with one of her lovers and you will be free.

It hurts to see you stuck in such pain.

Get out.


----------



## Evinrude58

This woman has you so messed up you don't know up from down.

You get nothing from this woman. 
Except stress.

You know you're going to be at risk for a heart attack from years of hypertension at the hands of her, right?

You truly are coming up with crazy excuses to keep tolerating her abuse.
How much sleep did you get?
High bp?

I wish we could help, but we are only observers.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

Herschel said:


> Look man, I don't know you, nor do I know your situation more than you have told us. We get that there are nuances. You know what? You don't even realize how much you have given up from yourself BESIDES the sex. You will see one day, when it's all over, how much you weren't the person you wish you were.


 @Herschel

Oh, I know how much I've given up. I laid everything out in a one-on-one with MC 2 weeks ago, threw my hands up and said "this is my life." It was then he said maybe it is time for D. This is why I'm here talking to all of you. I'm half a world away from the closest of family because of her, and I barely have any ties from my old life any more. I know what I've lost, and I know I could have been so much more. I said it before, I'm only in my 40s, so I think (hope) there's still time to salvage my life.

I'm sorry I'm so roundabout with all this and it took 11 pages of crap to get here, but there it is.


----------



## Herschel

Coping the Best I Can said:


> @Herschel
> 
> Oh, I know how much I've given up. I laid everything out in a one-on-one with MC 2 weeks ago, threw my hands up and said "this is my life." It was then he said maybe it is time for D. This is why I'm here talking to all of you. I'm half a world away from the closest of family because of her, and I barely have any ties from my old life any more. I know what I've lost, and I know I could have been so much more. I said it before, I'm only in my 40s, so I think (hope) there's still time to salvage my life.
> 
> I'm sorry I'm so roundabout with all this and it took 11 pages of crap to get here, but there it is.


There is man. There is plenty of time. And someone out there will $#@$ like they mean it.


----------



## bandit.45

Coping, when it all gets confusing go back to the facts:

1) She had a three month affair many years ago;
2) You have strong reason to suspect she lied about the nature of that affair and that it was full-on physical; 
3) She then started a phone/online affair with a second man three years ago; 
4) She said she stopped but now you have just learned she never has stopped talking with this guy. 
5) During this time that she has been talking to this guy, she has effectively cut off all sex with you.

There. What do these facts tell you? What "nuances" do you deduce from these unequivocal facts? 

Empirical evidence, gleaned from hundreds of similar stories to yours over the years, have taught us here at TAM that a BS in your situation probably does not now a tenth of what the WS has been up to all these years.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

You're seeing her for what you want her to be instead of what she really is. The mental problems and fantasy world she lives in will turn you into the bad guy in her mind--the guy who must be punished for divorcing her with no justification. Heck, you were already the bad guy once her mind classified you alongside her childhood abusers and started to make up stories about you. 

And you're stuck in the sunk cost fallacy, insisting that your 19-year investment in the relationship should finally show some returns. It will not. She is not capable of giving. 

Her lies will only stop once she's out of your life and you can't see her mouth moving anymore.


----------



## badmemory

OP,

I don't know which is greater; your fear of divorce or the fear of your wife.

Once you make the decision D, you huddle with your attorney and make a plan; to include preparing for contingencies. You keep a VAR on you to protect yourself. 

Then you just do it.


----------



## Evinrude58

Coping the Best I Can said:


> The decision is not the issue any more. Every person is different and she doesn't do well with the direct approach.
> how well has the other approaches been working on the talking to other men and having sex with you?
> It just doesn't work to say "you did this, this, and this, and I'm not taking it any more and we're divorcing." That's blindsiding her. And when she's blindsided her defenses go up. When her defenses go up she can get nasty and vindictive when you're trying to work with her. Why would I want to do that if I know that's going to make everything more difficult? I have to do it differently. youre not doing anything differently. Your doing the same old thing and expecting different results.
> 
> If we wake up tomorrow morning and after coffee I say "oh, here's your divorce papers, consider yourself served," with no preparation or forewarning that will wreak more havoc than the divorce itself! If my self worth was as low as you're purporting *I wouldn't be here talking about wanting to do this*, Do you see that you are equating "talking about wanting to do this"-- with actual action? You need to talk less and do more to get yourself free from misery. Actually see a lawyer and work out a plan. Please.
> and that's a lot better than I was 2 years ago or even 2 weeks ago. But it has to be a process - first an attempt to R, then youve already attempted reconciliation several times, yet your marriage is still sexless for you and still has extra men in it--- you should skip that step and the ultimatum and go se an attorneyan ultimatum, then D.
> 
> 
> And still, this is hard as hell to do! @naiveonedave has been married for 20+ years according to his profile. I'll take that to mean he hasn't divorced any time recently, so it's really easy to throw that D word like it's a piece of cake.


anything worth accomplishing takes work. We didn't say this would be easy, just that it needs doing. I know how hard it is. I've done it. I don't have a cheating SO anymore. You don't have to, either


----------



## Openminded

My marriage was more than twice as long as yours when I ended it. Was it remotely close to being an easy thing to do? Certainly not. Was it worth it? Absolutely. 

My only regret? Not getting out 30 years earlier when DD1 occurred. I stupidly believed his lies that there would never be a DD2. I was wrong and I paid a very heavy price for it. 

Sure, R works for some but it takes two people dedicated to making the marriage work. It doesn't work when only one is dedicated. Obviously.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

Openminded said:


> Sure, R works for some but it takes two people dedicated to making the marriage work. It doesn't work when only one is dedicated. Obviously.



She sure acts like she's committed when it comes to those "us" conversations. I've told her so many times that her actions don't follow her words. I can only look at what she does because I can find something wrong with most of what comes out of her mouth. She's a pathological liar and I don't see it changing. 

When I confront her she's going to get all teary and try to stop it but I've seen this before. It's fake, especially when years ago she used to say "you just tell me when you want me to leave." Gaslighting sucks.


----------



## Openminded

Yes, gaslighting definitely does. You end up feeling very well played (I did anyway). 

My ex-husband was shocked -- and totally opposed to the divorce. He thought since I hadn't ended when I should have that I never would. That was a tough conversation and not one I enjoy recalling. But it was worth it.


----------



## Satya

Tatsuhiko said:


> You know what? She is, and you should.


I agree. Sometimes you just need to call a spade a spade, OP. 19 years of enmeshment or not. 

You're not going to lose your humanity by doing so.


----------



## Satya

@Coping the Best I Can, I encourage you to print this out and put it on your mirror. 

We all go through this process, some more slowly than others, some more intensely at certain phrases than others. I used to personally bounce between phrases during any given week. They rarely followed the neat curve but I did experience them ALL. 

Some responders here are past all of these phases. Keep this in mind when you read and absorb comments that are encouraging you, even harshly, to take more action. Think about where you are currently and what phases you have yet to experience. Because you will experience them, it's only a matter of when.


----------



## Marc878

Reflect back.

Was it worth staying in this?

If not it appears nothing's changed so why are you still in this?

A lot come here and talk, talk, talk. It never gets them anywhere.
@Evinrude58 is correct. Stop talking and start doing. 

Do you want to be in this same predicament when you hit your 50's? It'll happen before you know it.


----------



## eric1

Coping the Best I Can said:


> You really need to ask? Well, let's see....
> 
> 1. My BANK ACCOUNT cares. If we agree to D and do it peacefully then maybe, just maybe, my savings will remain somewhat intact. I know her well enough to expect her to say she doesn't want anything from me except the essentials (like her car, which I'm happy to give her and take the payments off my plate). But if it gets nasty then she will try for more. She's reactive. If I approach her with a modicum of civility, she will do the same.
> 
> 2. What's left of my REPUTATION. A LOT of people know us and a LOT of people associate us as one unit. Not just family and close friends but groups, churches, people we know from participating in the community. If I have a chance at salvaging a fraction of those relationships (some of which I desperately need) through a somewhat amicable divorce procedure, then you bet your ass I'm going to try.
> 
> 
> Get off your high alpha horse and stop throwing around the "Just D" phrase like it's that easy.




She will not go nicely on you in a divorce. Period. She will continue to manipulate you with this way of thinking. Simply establish your boundaries and stick to them.

As to your second part, that is why you reach out. This isn't a 'game'. If she tries to manipulate you via your social network the calmly and rationally explain to them your viewpoint. I assure you that it will be fine


----------



## Vulcan2013

OP,

My X was a CSA survivor, and had a lot of issues as well. Champion gaslighter as well. Was separated for 10 years trying to work it out. I was afraid of the consequences of D, and really wanted to keep my vows. 

Now? I wish I'd divorced 10 years ago. Accept who your W is, and handle the D as best you can. You seem to be well-trained to fear her reaction. Emotional abuse? 

This will be somewhat high conflict as long as your W gets a benefit out of conflict. I kept reminding my W we couldn't change the end result by much, and any fighting would get lawyers more, and us less. And avoided responding to her baiting me into an argument. 

Good luck.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

Vulcan2013 said:


> OP,
> 
> 
> 
> My X was a CSA survivor, and had a lot of issues as well. Champion gaslighter as well. Was separated for 10 years trying to work it out. I was afraid of the consequences of D, and really wanted to keep my vows.
> 
> 
> 
> Now? I wish I'd divorced 10 years ago. Accept who your W is, and handle the D as best you can. You seem to be well-trained to fear her reaction. Emotional abuse?
> 
> 
> 
> This will be somewhat high conflict as long as your W gets a benefit out of conflict. I kept reminding my W we couldn't change the end result by much, and any fighting would get lawyers more, and us less. And avoided responding to her baiting me into an argument.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck.




Absolutely emotional abuse. But I don't know if it's intentional or she's just passing it on (the secondary CSA concept). Either way, her claim to want to make things better is just hot air. 

She recently said in her mind sometimes it's better to be nice to each other than be open and honest. It was at that point that I knew this would never work out. Anyone in their right mind knows that's insane! I told her if she wants to be nice to me then stop making me believe she's always hiding something from me. She didn't respond.


----------



## Malaise

Coping the Best I Can said:


> Absolutely emotional abuse. *But I don't know if it's intentional *or she's just passing it on (the secondary CSA concept). Either way, her claim to want to make things better is just hot air.
> 
> She recently said in her mind sometimes it's better to be nice to each other than be open and honest. It was at that point that I knew this would never work out. Anyone in their right mind knows that's insane! *I told her if she wants to be nice to me then stop making me believe she's always hiding something from me*. She didn't respond.


If the latter is true the former is probably also true.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

I would gently remind her of her philosophy as you head into divorce. Promise you'll be nice to her in exchange for her own niceness. However, she doesn't strike me as the type who will be capable of this.


----------



## aine

Coping the Best I Can said:


> The decision is not the issue any more. Every person is different and she doesn't do well with the direct approach. It just doesn't work to say "you did this, this, and this, and I'm not taking it any more and we're divorcing." That's blindsiding her. And when she's blindsided her defenses go up. When her defenses go up she can get nasty and vindictive when you're trying to work with her. Why would I want to do that if I know that's going to make everything more difficult? I have to do it differently.
> 
> If we wake up tomorrow morning and after coffee I say "oh, here's your divorce papers, consider yourself served," with no preparation or forewarning that will wreak more havoc than the divorce itself! If my self worth was as low as you're purporting I wouldn't be here talking about wanting to do this, and that's a lot better than I was 2 years ago or even 2 weeks ago. But it has to be a process - first an attempt to R, then an ultimatum, then D.
> 
> And still, this is hard as hell to do! @naiveonedave has been married for 20+ years according to his profile. I'll take that to mean he hasn't divorced any time recently, so it's really easy to throw that D word like it's a piece of cake.


You are very concerned about throwing your WW under the bus with a divorce, yet she had absolutely no problem in throwing you under the bus many times. When are you going to wake up and realize that this woman really wants to keep you sweet while she plans her own strategy? 
You have every right to put the fear of God into her and make whatever demands you need to reconcile (if that is your choice). If you are still walking on eggshells after SHE cheated on you then your marriage is doomed because you are handing all the power over to her. She knows this and you will find yourself back in this position again maybe a few years from now. 
YOu are in a war, your wife is not your friend (friends do not do what she has done), you have to win this war and be a man, not her doormat. Women do not respond to weak men, period.


----------



## Evinrude58

OP,
YOu cannot handle this person's personality. You have shown this for 13 years. She has the more powerful will and will win every argument, demonstrate her ability to manipulate you over and over, and make you miserable just as she is doing.

My suggestion for you is simple: Get a hard-ass lawyer that's accustomed to dealing with difficult women and divorce her, while following his instructions. Get the divorce law from your state so you will know what's going to happen and not let him give you bad advice to lengthen the process and run up fees for hours charged. Tell him you know she is going to disagree at every point. She is.
But let him deal with her. Simple.

Then go find a woman that won't treat you badly. That actually has a conscience.


----------



## bandit.45

At this point you and your wife are really no longer married in the emotional or spiritual sense. You two are business partners managing a failing company. It is time to get down to business and end the partnership and go your separate ways. That is the way you should be looking at this. Quit think of yourself as her husband and lover. She fired you from that position long ago.


----------



## Thor

Coping the Best I Can said:


> Absolutely emotional abuse. But I don't know if it's intentional or she's just passing it on (the secondary CSA concept). Either way, her claim to want to make things better is just hot air.


It doesn't matter why she does this. That's the terrible trap the Nice Guy gets into when in a relationship with the personality disordered CSA survivor. The NG has too much sympathy for the cause of her dysfunctions.

Try to keep in mind that she has chosen numerous wrong actions and inactions. First, she has chosen not to aggressively pursue professional help for her CSA issues, and she has chosen not to do hard work to overcome those issues. Secondly, she has made many choices to engage in behaviors she knows are wrong wrt to fidelity. She also chooses behaviors any adult knows are harmful to personal relationships and cause emotional distress in their spouse. She is consciously making these choices. The root cause doesn't matter because she is choosing to do these things as an adult.

Knowing why she is this way is of no practical value to you, and as a Nice Guy it can suck you into a fatal vortex. Until her behaviors are different, they are unacceptably harmful to you. Were she working hard to overcome her internal demons then knowing some possible root causes could be helpful in you being supportive of her recovery.

Detaching from her is going to be difficult but necessary for you.


----------



## Thor

There are books and websites about divorcing a NPD or BPD. While your wife is not exactly those things, some of the concepts and tactics may be helpful. Chances are she wants to keep her good reputation and image with her friends and family. She may be averse to conflict. So if you can remain calm and assure her you want to do an amicable divorce, she may not ratchet up the crazy. Many times people use a strong offense as a way to avoid conflict. Yeah, it sounds backwards but if the person can run roughshod over you then they don't ever have to negotiate terms of the relationship. They get you to cave quickly, thus avoiding difficult conversations. So, in the divorce try to keep the emotional level down even when you disagree with something she says or does. Don't bad mouth her to anybody. If things get contentious, disengage if possible. Use a mediator for all the discussions, so that she will try to appear normal and reasonable in front of the mediator.

Since one of her deep fears is abandonment or rejection, you can try to avoid words or actions which appear to be those. Don't post crap on Facebook. Don't tell her she's a shrew you can't stand to be around any more. And above all else don't ever say anything about her CSA or any issues you may think she has from it!!!!

There is no perfect time to have a conversation or to start the divorce. Get your ducks in a row, then just do it.


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

Thor said:


> There are books and websites about divorcing a NPD or BPD. While your wife is not exactly those things, some of the concepts and tactics may be helpful.


If you can think of the names of any, please send them my way. 



Thor said:


> She may be averse to conflict. So if you can remain calm and assure her you want to do an amicable divorce, she may not ratchet up the crazy. Many times people use a strong offense as a way to avoid conflict.


She avoids conflict like the plague. I can't even get into a friendly debate on an innocuous topic with her any more. 



Thor said:


> Yeah, it sounds backwards but if the person can run roughshod over you then they don't ever have to negotiate terms of the relationship. They get you to cave quickly, thus avoiding difficult conversations. So, in the divorce try to keep the emotional level down even when you disagree with something she says or does. Don't bad mouth her to anybody. If things get contentious, disengage if possible.



That's a given. My concern is that she is so sedentary right now I can't see her getting ready to leave, finding a place, job, etc. Then she has no where to go and looks at me when I say time's up, get out. I'm sure this is a manipulative tactic but right now I have no idea how to handle it. 



Thor said:


> And above all else don't ever say anything about her CSA or any issues you may think she has from it!!!!


Glad you mention that because it's my nature to qualify everything.


----------



## TAMAT

Coping,

BTW thanks for posting your story, there are some similarities with my W with the timeline and CSA which have given me something to ponder. I haven't had much time to post as some of the issues are profound and weighty.

Tamat


----------



## Coping the Best I Can

TAMAT said:


> Coping,
> 
> 
> 
> BTW thanks for posting your story, there are some similarities with my W with the timeline and CSA which have given me something to ponder. I haven't had much time to post as some of the issues are profound and weighty.
> 
> 
> 
> Tamat



@TAMAT

I'd love to hear your story. Perhaps we can learn from each other.


----------



## Thor

Coping the Best I Can said:


> Glad you mention that because it's my nature to qualify everything.


OK, I'll be a bit more blunt than usual. The cause of her dysfunctions is irrelevant and none of your concern. You are not her therapist and even if you were a qualified therapist you could never be her therapist due to the nature of CSA.

Your position should be one of boundaries. You will not accept behaviors X,Y, and Z. If she does those behaviors, the consequences are A,B, and C. At this point it may be difficult to set boundaries which don't sound like ultimatums, but it is important you think clearly about the exact words you use to avoid ultimatums. She may not recognize the difference but you should attempt to make this about what you can accept and what you can live with, not what she must do. If she wants to be lazy, she can, but you won't remain married to her. She can choose to be disinterested in sex with you, but you will not live as a monk.

If you're moving directly to divorce now, you don't even have to discuss the particulars with her of why. You are unhappy and she is unhappy. This is not a good match for either one of you. You will both be better off moving on. You've obviously not been able to be the person she needs in order to be happy.

If you make this about the relationship and you, it takes the stigma off of her and makes it easy for her to go along with it. As soon as you blame her she will go nuclear. Her deepest fear is she really is as unloveable as she thinks she is, which is why abandonment triggers such a big negative emotional reaction in her.

She is still going to try to blame you and make you the bad guy. She will probably bad mouth you to friends and family. But as soon as you say something about her dysfunctions, being broken, being a bad wife, or having problems due to CSA you will set off a thermonuclear reaction.


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## Thor

bpdcentral dot com is the website most frequently mentioned when dealing with a BPD or NPD.


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## Coping the Best I Can

Update: 

Was with MC last night. Things got rough. I got upset and angry, she got defensive and wouldn't budge, and kept throwing things at me (figuratively speaking). Specifically, she's trying to compare her indiscretions to my past problem with porn addiction. Anyway, point is, nothing was revealed, and consequently nothing was resolved. We left the MC with him saying we need to make a decision - she will need to give up some of her privacy to start to rebuild trust, and I need to open up enough to start trusting her as she reveals. She wouldn't say if she could or would do her part. When he asked me if I could learn to trust if I saw an effort of openness, I told him honestly that after nearly 2 decades, I don't know. He finally said that's a decision we will need to make one way or another. 

Probably my biggest mistake was getting emotional, but I couldn't stop myself. I started grilling her like she was on trial. It didn't make things any better. I'm angry, hurt, I feel like I'm being played every day, and that all came out.

We haven't talked since the MC session. My emotions are a bit more in check now but the next discussion with her will be where do we go from here. I don't have any more to give, and I will tell her that. I can only hope the D process will be remotely civil.

Thanks to everyone for the input. If you believe in a higher power, then please pray for me, because I need all the help I can get for what's coming.


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## Openminded

I'm sorry she didn't cooperate. I didn't think she would be forthcoming with anything helpful but I had hoped for your sake she would be. 

I don't think she wants a divorce and may promise the moon, and everything else, for you to stay so prepare yourself for that just in case you decide to go through with it. Ending a marriage is never easy but sometimes it does have to be done in order to live with yourself. I got through my divorce literally a minute at a time -- with lots of bad times -- but I looked ahead to the day that I would be free and happy again. And I am. You can be too, if you decide that's the choice you have to make.


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## Tatsuhiko

Not sure how you can "rebuild trust" with a pathological liar who is contacting other men behind your back, despite her promises not to. And all she can do is get angry about a "porn addiction" in a marriage where there is no intimacy? Time to move on. 

But Openminded is correct. Be prepared for her to be surprised when you suggest divorce. A normal woman would have seen it coming by now, but your wife is far from normal. She'll either try to seduce you, or become very angry--possibly physically violent. She may even accuse you of violence in an attempt to get you arrested. Keep a VAR (voice-activated recorder) on you at all times. Many a man has saved himself from a domestic violence complaint with this simple device.


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## Evinrude58

Your wife is a lunatic. Why you haven't filed is beyond my comprehension.
She didn't accept any blame, say she was sorry, or provide any new information that you were hoping for at the big core-to-Jesus meeting with the MC?

I'd say I'm surprised, but..........

Your wife is predictable, at least.


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## TheTruthHurts

Hey @Coping the Best I Can I've got an idea.

I've read this and similar stories and none end well. The ones that end the best are those that end - most just end up with guys like you becoming a shell of themselves.

But for some unknown reason I have a faint idea that you will buck the trend and take action FOR YOU. I emphasize this because it has nothing to do with your W at this point - it's all about what you will do for you.

So... here's my thought.

Close your eyes.... think about going to your next physical and finding out you have cancer -or some terminal condition. Not the aggressive type but one that surely will result in a shortened life span.

What would you do? What would you change? What would you regret?

You are missing the big picture here. You only have one life. You don't even get to decide how long that is.

Don't make the mistake of getting lost in the trees and missing the forest. It's time to live your life


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## eric1

Coping, it sounds like you've given her a pretty decent opportunity to find Remorse and she is not taking it.

It's probably time to strongly consider protecting yourself legally. It doesn't mean that you need to completely kill the option for R, but at this point the ball is in her court.


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## Satya

Without true remorse, you're just wasting your energy, time, and money. 

Cut the tethers and let her go.


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## MattMatt

Thor said:


> It doesn't matter why she does this. That's the terrible trap the Nice Guy gets into when in a relationship with the personality disordered CSA survivor. The NG has too much sympathy for the cause of her dysfunctions.
> 
> Try to keep in mind that she has chosen numerous wrong actions and inactions. First, she has chosen not to aggressively pursue professional help for her CSA issues, and she has chosen not to do hard work to overcome those issues. Secondly, she has made many choices to engage in behaviors she knows are wrong wrt to fidelity. She also chooses behaviors any adult knows are harmful to personal relationships and cause emotional distress in their spouse. She is consciously making these choices. The root cause doesn't matter because she is choosing to do these things as an adult.
> 
> Knowing why she is this way is of no practical value to you, and as a Nice Guy it can suck you into a fatal vortex. Until her behaviors are different, they are unacceptably harmful to you. Were she working hard to overcome her internal demons then knowing some possible root causes could be helpful in you being supportive of her recovery.
> 
> Detaching from her is going to be difficult but necessary for you.


Due to my dyslexia I misread the above as "fecal vortex."

I immediately realised my error but then thought: "Wait a minute! Perhaps in a very real sense they DO suck us into a fecal vortex?"


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## Tatsuhiko

MattMatt said:


> Due to my dyslexia I misread the above as "fecal vortex."


You'd better trademark that name before some toilet manufacturer steals it. If you end up as a millionaire, don't forget about your roots here at TAM.


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## Thor

"Fecal Vortex" sounds like a college band name.


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## bandit.45

Thor said:


> "Fecal Vortex" sounds like a college band name.


...with opening act Stool Sample....


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## Thor

bandit.45 said:


> ...with opening act Stool Sample....


Followed by "Drunk'n GoNuts". That was a real band btw. Best college band name ever.


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## MattMatt

bandit.45 said:


> ...with opening act Stool Sample....










[/url]via Imgflip Meme Generator[/IMG]


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## MattMatt

Oops! We just threadjacked! Sorry!


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## MattMatt

Due to the fact that the OP believes this thread has served a very useful purpose to help him make decisions appertaining to his situation, this thread is now being close.


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