# Blindsided by my wife, she doesn't love me nor want me. She wants a divorce



## anonymously

Not sure why i'm posting here. Only that I guess maybe it makes me feel better to get it out and after seeing other similar posts I guess I am not alone.

The day before yesterday she tells me that she doesnt love me anymore. We have been together for about 10 years and I have always loved her with all my heart. She gives me no reasoning, there is no specific thing that she sites and swears that there is nobody else neither emotionally influencing her nor physically. She has apparently been feeling this way for several years although I dont know how many as she will not tell me. 

We have a child together (under 6) who is my world. I cant stand the thought of our family being destroyed yet that is what she is doing.

We have not had a great sex life in some time as she has pulled away and become more and more distant. She tried every now and then, lets say considerably less than once a month and I have been patient over the last few years and willing to accept that its just an area of our relationship that needed some work. Work I have been willing to do and continue. 

She has never come out and openly said anything about not being attracted to me or not caring for me. Quite the opposite was previously holding true we have built a great life together and for every other aspect we have been the perfect partnership. But alas the last couple of years the physical aspect admitidly had some issues. My attraction, my feelings, and my desire for her has never wavered, while hers has. My presumtion was that as most couples experience pressures of daily life, work stress, and stress of raising a child and taking care of the house hold was the primay culprit. This is based on discussions which I thought were open and honest. Now she says that she has felt nothing for me for years, but not how many. She apparently has had to force herself to be intimate the last several times and felt nothing for me. 

She says she has worked on this issue of not being in love with for last few years, yet she has never discussed this with me. Her lack of honesty about what she might have been feeling is just as hurtful as the rest of what she is now telling me. I feel that if nothing more and even if she truly doesnt love me or want at the very minimum I have earned a right to complete honesty in my relationship. Of course I also know that she could not have possiblely "worked" on anything because in any relationship if something is to be "worked on then it would require an open honest dialog and both people to be participating. I dont believe you can work on somethign and keep the other person shut out and in the dark. So I cant accept that as a truthful or serious attempt to fix anything.

I dont believe its me or at least I cant imagine it. I am and always have been supporting, attentive but not overbearing, affectionate but not constricting. I support my family and enjoy a realtively comfortable amount of success. I am a good father and good partner and at the risk of sounding too high up on my self I know that for most woman I would be a very good catch or at least so I have been told. In fact she said this to me a she was telling she doesnt love and doest want to be with me. She said she doesnt know what's wrong with her and that she has what every woman would die to have but yet she cant feel anything for me anymore and doesnt care or want to be with me.

She had a tough upbringing with men in her childhood with regard to fidelity and it appears to me now that she never dealt with her own emotional issues that stem from all of this creating a pattern of distrust for men in general. I say this because it seems that way based on whats coming out now.

I have never had any emotional issues nor baggage nor am I disrespecful to my wife in any way. Of course I can get angry as anyone else can but generally speaking I am a pretty level headed, fairly successful, younger guy (40 ish, yes I said I younger so what?LOL) with a good sense of humor. I believe I am also an attractive guy so no issues ever with regard to how I feel about myself. 

I am trying my best to hold it together for my child and what might be left of my family. I have offered and said that if this is what you want I will accept and still do what I can to ensure you make a good living for yourself. Our businesses are intertwined and she has relied on me to me the one who drives her business with respect to keeping the clients coming. Because of this I realize that I cant simply pull the plug on what I do for her and will have to continue to do it until she can learn that aspect of her own business. I fear that not only will I be losing my family but in her unstable mind right now she will turn it into a disastorous fist fight squandering our savings on attorney's who will be the only winners in the end while my child loses. I hope that if the end does come which is seems is inevitable now that she can hold her composure to keep it amicable. As difficult as it is and devestatingly hurtful as it is to me right now I have maintained my composure and keep trying to keep it from getting horiddly nasty.

I can only hope that I can remain strong and the she can be stable to end it amicably enough to protect my child and whatever ever might be left of my broken family after all this is said and done. Since she has given no sign or incling of wanting to be with me and work it out I see no sign of hope or light at the end of the tunnel when it comes to us staying together. All that I fought for and worked for over a decade is crumbling down and there isnt much I can do about...

Not sure what writing any of them above will or has acomplished, but there it is....maybe someone else's insight or words might bring some comfort or direction? Maybe it wont..right now I am lost and doing all I can to hold it together without being angry and screaming all for the sake of my child who I have to put first before my own emotional hurt or heartbreak.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KeepLoveGrowing

Unfortunately I don't have any advice. All I can say is I'm sorry for how lost, frustrated, hurt, etc you must be feeling right now. Try to stay strong, and maybe consider some counselling to help you work through the shock.


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## Prodigal

Since your wife won't tell you specifically why she fell out of love with you, do you have any idea at all as to what caused this? Are you certain there is nobody else? Any possibility of an EA or PA? 

Why do you think she started pulling away sexually? Granted, being a mother can be exhausting. But is there anything you might have done that could have caused her to do this? If it's not you, I can only guess there might be someone else.

Sorry I can't offer anything else. I know you're hurting. Do you feel she is definitely done, or do you think there is any hope?


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## KathyBatesel

The only thing I can think of to add is that if she had some rough experiences with men and you're not bringing those dynamics into the marriage, then her unhappiness probably stems from being outside her comfort zone. Even though it might seem like it'd be easy to adjust from being in bad relationships to a good one, it never is. And unfortunately, you're not able to influence this much if she's not willing to let you.


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## EleGirl

Your wife probably has no idea why she feels the way she does. She was wrong however to not tell you all this time that she has been feeling this way. Had she told you, the both of you could have worked on fixing things.

What are her plans? Does she have a move out date? Etc?

Whatever you do, do not move out of the family home and leave your child. Perhaps suggest that the two of you can live in the house for a while and continue to co-parent in the same home. This will buy you time work on the marriage now that you know a problem exists.

Look at the books linked to below for building a passionate marriage. They have things that you can do to rebuild the relationship. As long as you are around her you can do these things and have a chance of rekindling her emotionally.

I do have a question for you. In the last year, how many hours a week did the two of you spend together, just the two of you, doing things that you both enjoy?


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## anonymously

It's been hot a cold for last 2 years but not terribly alarming. My first thought was EA and or PA. Still think that's very possible but I may never know the real truth and she swears that isn't the case. Then again why should I believe anything if according to her she hasn't loved me in a few years but has hidden it from me. If that's true them she's the best actress I have ever let because she sure out on one hell of a phony front. Sadly I have real answers and may not ever know the real truth.

I should mention that this coming about after a trip she recently took without me that was a week long trip. Of course that immediately leads to believe the EA or PA. But she is adamant that is not the case. If not then what is? It's like she woke up had a big bowl of crazy and is now bat **** bananas.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonymously

I should add that I don't think she has thought this through at all. There is no move out date, I hope that won't become the next war as I don't feel I should be the one to go since this is her doing. She has not considered anything beyond telling what she has.


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## EleGirl

If I were you I'd keep looking for evidence of an affair. She is most likely rewriting history in saying that she has not loved you for years. This is usually what happens in affairs.

What have you done to try to discover an affair?


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## anonymously

EleGirl said:


> If I were you I'd keep looking for evidence of an affair. She is most likely rewriting history in saying that she has not loved you for years. This is usually what happens in affairs.
> 
> What have you done to try to discover an affair?


EleGirl,

I did some pretty good snooping not long ago and uncovered nothing exceptionally strange. That included texts, emails that I know of etc. that's not to say there can't be an account I am not aware but have no way of knowing. I also have no way of knowing what happened on this recent trip of hers but again I haven't found anything that says Aha! Gotcha!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonymously

EleGirl said:


> Your wife probably has no idea why she feels the way she does. She was wrong however to not tell you all this time that she has been feeling this way. Had she told you, the both of you could have worked on fixing things.
> 
> What are her plans? Does she have a move out date? Etc?
> 
> Whatever you do, do not move out of the family home and leave your child. Perhaps suggest that the two of you can live in the house for a while and continue to co-parent in the same home. This will buy you time work on the marriage now that you know a problem exists.
> 
> Look at the books linked to below for building a passionate marriage. They have things that you can do to rebuild the relationship. As long as you are around her you can do these things and have a chance of rekindling her emotionally.
> 
> I do have a question for you. In the last year, how many hours a week did the two of you spend together, just the two of you, doing things that you both enjoy?



Honestly work and our child takes most of our time. We have had several trips and vacations but our child is always on board. Neither of us have much family locally who can help. We have a great sitter so we have had our date nights but no extended trips on our own without our kid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Emerald

anonymously said:


> It's been hot a cold for last 2 years but not terribly alarming. My first thought was EA and or PA. Still think that's very possible but I may never know the real truth and she swears that isn't the case. Then again why should I believe anything if according to her she hasn't loved me in a few years but has hidden it from me. If that's true them she's the best actress I have ever let because she sure out on one hell of a phony front. Sadly I have real answers and may not ever know the real truth.
> 
> I should mention that this coming about after a trip she recently took without me that was a week long trip. Of course that immediately leads to believe the EA or PA. But she is adamant that is not the case. If not then what is? It's like she woke up had a big bowl of crazy and is now bat **** bananas.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Red flags popping up.

If she hasn't loved you in a few years, you would have noticed!

She's hiding something. Was this week-long trip for business?

Do not move out. She's "unhappy" she goes. Good luck sir.


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## EleGirl

anonymously said:


> Honestly work and our child takes most of our time. We have had several trips and vacations but our child is always on board. Neither of us have much family locally who can help. We have a great sitter so we have had our date nights but no extended trips on our own without our kid.


If a couple does not get at least 15 hours of time a week, just the two of you, it's almost impossible to keep the love and passion in a marriage. The lack of quality time together is often what leads to a couple drifting apart. 

The book "His Needs, Her Needs" talks about this and other things that would help to rebuild your relationship.

Have you tried a VAR (voice activated recorder) in her car? Most people talk to their affair partner on their cells during the commute to and from work. A lot of people use velcro to secure the VAR to a hidden surface in the car (like under the front seat).


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## anonymously

EleGirl said:


> If a couple does not get at least 15 hours of time a week, just the two of you, it's almost impossible to keep the love and passion in a marriage. The lack of quality time together is often what leads to a couple drifting apart.
> 
> The book "His Needs, Her Needs" talks about this and other things that would help to rebuild your relationship.
> 
> Have you tried a VAR (voice activated recorder) in her car? Most people talk to their affair partner on their cells during the commute to and from work. A lot of people use velcro to secure the VAR to a hidden surface in the car (like under the front seat).


Will be picking up one tomorrow after seeing an Attorney just to cover myself and know my options and rights. Great tip, already considered I need to do that. Still in disbelief that I do but it's not in my control. As far as the time, I don't believe that's the issue here at all. This is something beyond that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonymously

Emerald said:


> Red flags popping up.
> 
> If she hasn't loved you in a few years, you would have noticed!
> 
> She's hiding something. Was this week-long trip for business?
> 
> Do not move out. She's "unhappy" she goes. Good luck sir.


I feel the same, either you are worthy of an Oscar as an actress or just full of crap. The trip was to visit her family in her hometown which she hasn't seen in a couple of years. It wasn't feasible for me to go this time around due to work schedules... And yes I definitely feel she should be the one to go not me. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TDSC60

anonymously said:


> I feel the same, either you are worthy of an Oscar as an actress or just full of crap. The trip was to visit her family in her hometown which she hasn't seen in a couple of years. It wasn't feasible for me to go this time around due to work schedules... And yes I definitely feel she should be the one to go not me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Feels "unhappy" in the marriage but can't point to a specific reason why. 

Connected with old friends on her trip home - maybe an old BF.

Wants out of the marriage to find herself and happiness.

7-15 years married. More common than you think.

Sorry. Do not try to talk her out of it. You would be wasting your time. Do not beg or plead. Makes you look like wussy and will confirm her decision in her mind.

Let her go. Treat her as a room mate. Go your own way. Maybe she will wake up and realize what she is doing, maybe she will not. Either way make your child your priority. Not her. Make your plans for a single parent life.


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## Entropy3000

anonymously said:


> It's been hot a cold for last 2 years but not terribly alarming. My first thought was EA and or PA. Still think that's very possible but I may never know the real truth and she swears that isn't the case. Then again why should I believe anything if according to her she hasn't loved me in a few years but has hidden it from me. If that's true them she's the best actress I have ever let because she sure out on one hell of a phony front. Sadly I have real answers and may not ever know the real truth.
> 
> I should mention that this coming about after a trip she recently took without me that was a week long trip. Of course that immediately leads to believe the EA or PA. But she is adamant that is not the case. If not then what is? It's like she woke up had a big bowl of crazy and is now bat **** bananas.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Look, you know you have to rule out another man. 

So get busy. There are other possibilities here but if it is another man this is urgent. Other answers are a slower process and you may not be able to do a thing about them.

If she is in an EA you at least have a chance with some urgency to deal wit it.

Good luck. Leave no stone unturned and fight for your marriage.

You say nothing jumps out but most people have no idea what they are looking for.

Does she have any male friends whatsoever? Close or otherwise.

Do you know everyone on her FB account? Are there any men there?

Does she work or is she a SAHM?

What does she do with her spare time? What type of GNOs does she participate in?

Has she recently gone to a reunion of any kind?

What was the purpose of her most recent trip? Where did she go? Who did she stay with? Was this her home town?

Who are her female friends? Are they party girls, single, divorced and so on.

have you investigated ALL of her accounts? Does she pasword her phone? 

How much time do you sepenbd together? Do you go out on dates with her. Do you work a lot of hours.

There is more to go over but lets see what your answers are here.


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## ComicBookLady

As an alternative to the affair theory (one which you feel is not likely) here is what first popped into my mind:

You stated over and over again about the way YOU are in this marriage. Your role, the way you act, how good and balanced of a husband you are. I am not saying that you are wrong, I think all you're saying is valid and true through YOUR viewpoint, however, I can almost guarantee your wife does not agree with you on many of your points of view, and would probably have a lot of input and say on what exactly she thinks about you, and it's up to you to be open to her input, even if you entirely disagree, or even if she's blatantly wrong. Her feelings should be treated as valid, because feelings are not debatable (and men often debate them from logical standpoints)

Of course you said that she won't share her feelings with you, so my theory is some time ago, she may have had repeated instances with you in where she TRIED over and over again to have her feelings heard, validated, cared for, and understood (core needs for a women that men often have difficulty giving). After repeatedly having her feelings INvalidated by you (which is easy for men to do, as their nature is to "fix" her problems when she shares them) she slowly starts to pull away and begin to detach. I've read SO MANY marriages in which this happened, and many articles covering it, because it was happening in my marriage, until my husband learned to actively listen and validate me.

So for this theory, I would ask you to honestly look back to the times she has tried to tell you her feelings (on anything, not just big things). Did you sit quietly, hear her out, and then at the end ONLY tell her you understood and cared about what she's going through? Or did you argue/try to fix/ not reflect back her feelings (which wouldn't be wrong of you, but it would be wrong for her)?

If you're not sure, I would ask you to give it a try. She may not trust you at first, because her feelings have not been treated well by you in the past, but she'll open up once you show her you're ready to really listen (and I mean not interrupting, or raising your tone even ONCE). Also, she'll likely seem to get worse as she's unleashing feeling (sound mean, angry, or cry) but that is a good sign that you're on the right track to hearing all you need to hear, and open her back up to you again.

Anyway, that's my theory for you, and it's worth a try. From all I've seen, wives that are detaching form their husbands for these reasons still love them deep down, and it's not too late for you.

Also research techniques on how to validate your wife, and also look up articles about her core needs as a woman. It may help.

I really do hope everything works out in the end for you, your sound like you love your wife and family a lot. I wish you all the best.


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## DavidWYoung

Mrs. NotSureWhtToDo might very well be right, but that is water under the bridge now. I have been on this forum for two years now and it seems that your story and my story are repeated everyday.
I used to laugh when people would say "It is what it is!" or "Bitc%s Be Crazy!" but maybe they are right. It is just that simple. Just my 2 cents. Very sorry that you are in this club now. David


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## MattMatt

> The day before yesterday she tells me that she doesnt love me anymore. We have been together for about 10 years and I have always loved her with all my heart. She gives me no reasoning, there is no specific thing that she sites and swears that there is nobody else


She loves you, but she's not in love with you. 

And they always swear -sometimes on the lives of their innocent children- that they'd *never* cheat on you.

Yeah, right.

You need to have independent verification of this.

You might need the expertise -hard won- of the folks in the Coping With Infidelity section.


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## anchorwatch

It could be MLC and a WAW, but you should rule out another man first to know what your dealing with.

Be discrete 

Put a keylogger on any computer that she uses
Put a spy wear with gps on her cell phone
Put a VAR in her car and the house
Check her email, chat and FB histories
Check your carrier's phone logs for calls and text to numbers and verify who she is in contact with. 
If you find an OM, find out who he is, find out his family situation, home address and employment.
If there is infidelity do not confront without a plan. 

Google "Walk away Wife" too

Here read this,
Divorce Busting® - Walk-Away Wife Syndrome - Wife Ending Marriage


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## anonymously

Mrs. NotSureWhatToDo said:


> As an alternative to the affair theory (one which you feel is not likely) here is what first popped into my mind:
> 
> You stated over and over again about the way YOU are in this marriage. Your role, the way you act, how good and balanced of a husband you are. I am not saying that you are wrong, I think all you're saying is valid and true through YOUR viewpoint, however, I can almost guarantee your wife does not agree with you on many of your points of view, and would probably have a lot of input and say on what exactly she thinks about you, and it's up to you to be open to her input, even if you entirely disagree, or even if she's blatantly wrong. Her feelings should be treated as valid, because feelings are not debatable (and men often debate them from logical standpoints)
> 
> Notsure...I have thought about something very similar to what you are saying and in all fairness I can say that those times while not often did exist. There were times although not many that she would complain about my time at work. Economics and changes in business dynamics have dictated more time at the office .
> 
> Of course you said that she won't share her feelings with you, so my theory is some time ago, she may have had repeated instances with you in where she TRIED over and over again to have her feelings heard, validated, cared for, and understood (core needs for a women that men often have difficulty giving). After repeatedly having her feelings INvalidated by you (which is easy for men to do, as their nature is to "fix" her problems when she shares them) she slowly starts to pull away and begin to detach. I've read SO MANY marriages in which this happened, and many articles covering it, because it was happening in my marriage, until my husband learned to actively listen and validate me.
> 
> So for this theory, I would ask you to honestly look back to the times she has tried to tell you her feelings (on anything, not just big things). Did you sit quietly, hear her out, and then at the end ONLY tell her you understood and cared about what she's going through? Or did you argue/try to fix/ not reflect back her feelings (which wouldn't be wrong of you, but it would be wrong for her)?
> 
> If you're not sure, I would ask you to give it a try. She may not trust you at first, because her feelings have not been treated well by you in the past, but she'll open up once you show her you're ready to really listen (and I mean not interrupting, or raising your tone even ONCE). Also, she'll likely seem to get worse as she's unleashing feeling (sound mean, angry, or cry) but that is a good sign that you're on the right track to hearing all you need to hear, and open her back up to you again.
> 
> Anyway, that's my theory for you, and it's worth a try. From all I've seen, wives that are detaching form their husbands for these reasons still love them deep down, and it's not too late for you.
> 
> Also research techniques on how to validate your wife, and also look up articles about her core needs as a woman. It may help.
> 
> I really do hope everything works out in the end for you, your sound like you love your wife and family a lot. I wish you all the best.


Not sure....I thought about something along similar lines and admittedly there may be some truth to it. There are times sporadicly that she will complain I work too much. That is true, I do. Having to hold on to the same lifestyle in a down turn economy has not been easy. We are both in the field and its a demanding one. I took the responsibility of taking on more of her work after we had a baby. In fact I did 100% of her job and mine for several years so she can stay home. She's been back to work a whole but as I said before relies 100% on me to drive our businesses. Partially do to still have some of what should be her work load and mainly due to the economy and changes in our industry the average income per client had been reduced greatly. I have managed to hold it together but no question it's required more work and time at the office. My time sacrifices allows for the lifestyle and more freedom for her to tend to our child. As a result she spends time with our child then I do.

It's one of those double edged swords. She can't really do what I do to allow me to scale or step back. I can't step back without risking losing all we worked for. I know it's not forever or permanent but right now and the near future that's how it has to be. There isn't much I can do to address those complaints other than listen. Of course I do offer the reasons why it's necessary and that it's not going to be this way forever. But at the end of the day this didn't come up often enough to be that much of a deal breaker. 

When the sex started dwindling I of course took issue with that, we discussed it numerous times but never was there a mention that she didn't love me or was not interested in being with me anymore. Now she says she was just sparing my feelings and didn't want to hurt me so she didn't say it. But again this is 2 years late and now you have this epiphany? It's becoming increasingly hostile and now more aggressive and unpredictable with regard to how she will behave next. She of course doesn't see that. Initially I felt strongly about he going since she is the one brining this one. But if becomes more unpredictable or hostile around my child I will have to scurry and go myself. Either way I can't let our child be witness to any more negativity that she will already be exposed to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonymously

anchorwatch said:


> It could be MLC and a WAW, but you should rule out another man first to know what your dealing with.
> 
> Be discrete
> 
> Put a keylogger on any computer that she uses
> Put a spy wear with gps on her cell phone
> Put a VAR in her car and the house
> Check her email, chat and FB histories
> Check your carrier's phone logs for calls and text to numbers and verify who she is in contact with.
> If you find an OM, find out who he is, find out his family situation, home address and employment.
> If there is infidelity do not confront without a plan.
> 
> Google "Walk away Wife" too
> 
> Here read this,
> Divorce Busting® - Walk-Away Wife Syndrome - Wife Ending Marriage


Thanks

I have check emails that I know about and Facebook including texts etc and come up with nothing this far. My next move is to follow your other suggestions as well. What MLC? This is all new to me but I am grateful that I found this forum today. This has all been dropped on me over the past week. Also the phone log isn't much help because we get hundreds of calls a week each talking with clients so its like finding a needle in a haystack 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anchorwatch

Mid Life Crisis


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## ComicBookLady

anonymously said:


> Not sure....I thought about something along similar lines and admittedly there may be some truth to it. There are times sporadicly that she will complain I work too much. That is true, I do. Having to hold on to the same lifestyle in a down turn economy has not been easy. We are both in the field and its a demanding one. I took the responsibility of taking on more of her work after we had a baby. In fact I did 100% of her job and mine for several years so she can stay home. She's been back to work a whole but as I said before relies 100% on me to drive our businesses. Partially do to still have some of what should be her work load and mainly due to the economy and changes in our industry the average income per client had been reduced greatly. I have managed to hold it together but no question it's required more work and time at the office. My time sacrifices allows for the lifestyle and more freedom for her to tend to our child. As a result she spends time with our child then I do.
> 
> It's one of those double edged swords. She can't really do what I do to allow me to scale or step back. I can't step back without risking losing all we worked for. I know it's not forever or permanent but right now and the near future that's how it has to be. There isn't much I can do to address those complaints other than listen. Of course I do offer the reasons why it's necessary and that it's not going to be this way forever. But at the end of the day this didn't come up often enough to be that much of a deal breaker.
> 
> When the sex started dwindling I of course took issue with that, we discussed it numerous times but never was there a mention that she didn't love me or was not interested in being with me anymore. Now she says she was just sparing my feelings and didn't want to hurt me so she didn't say it. But again this is 2 years late and now you have this epiphany? It's becoming increasingly hostile and now more aggressive and unpredictable with regard to how she will behave next. She of course doesn't see that. Initially I felt strongly about he going since she is the one brining this one. But if becomes more unpredictable or hostile around my child I will have to scurry and go myself. Either way I can't let our child be witness to any more negativity that she will already be exposed to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand what you are saying. Actually my husband and I are in quite a similar situation. We both work together in the same field at home, but because of having kids recently we decided he would take on all the work until the youngest is in school. This lets me spend all my time with the kids/house, but it means my husband is LITERALLY working around the clock, 24/7 (besides sleep of course).

I had grown increasingly upset because we did NOTHING together unless he wanted sex. It's not like he was a jerk, he just was working SO much to keep things afloat there just was no room for me. He said he loved me plenty, but I couldn't feel it because I never saw him. Of course I understood and appreciated all he did for us... but... I still needed my husband. I didn't want to make things harder on him, but I just wanted a little bit. ANYTHING from him to make me feel connected to him again. I then started to close off and pull away. We did not have the best communication at all, so I grew resentful when he ignored my feelings, he felt unappreciated and resentful I would complain when he works so hard, and it went round and round, getting worse each time, all the while I pulled further away. It was awful.

Finally something clicked in him once day, and he just sat and listened to everything I had to say with his defenses down. He usually interrupts or argues what I have to say, but this time he reacted in a caring way to the anguish I was feeling, and it changed everything, and it's been a LOT better since, and we've researched validation and listening techniques (for both of us)

Anyway, he took what I said to heart, and took action. He plans a date night every few weeks (he plans because he wanted me to feel special, as I plan everything usually) and he does little sweet things during the day as often as he can. Like doing the dishes every now and then, or sitting with me for 10 minutes here and there holding my hand. Or sending me sweet notes, and telling me how much I mean to him very often. None of it effected his work, but it added up to a LOT for me. I also took steps to take care of his concerns, which was to show appreciation more often. A lot of women just don't think to do that, and how much it could mean to a man.

I don't know if that's close to your situation, but I just wanted to show that if your wife has complained that you work too much, then she LOVES YOU! If she didn't she wouldn't give a darn how much you worked. Did you validate her when she came to you with those feelings? It's not a common reaction for men to validate concerns. The issue in this situation is that YOU are right about needing to work a lot, but SHE is right for wanting her husband too. You just need to talk, and find a way to find a solution in which you're both happy. There must be some little things you could work into your work schedule to help make her feel more connected to you. And seriously, EVEN if you just listened (actively/objectively listened), showed you cared about her pain, that would mean a lot to her.

As for the sex, that will follow when her core needs are fulfilled. Sex is more emotional for women, so that part of the marriage needs to be in check for it to happen for them (not all the time, but usually). So it would make sense that for awhile she was feeling this way (if her emotional needs weren't being taken care of) and couldn't figure out why. She probably didn't clue you in at first because she probably thought it was a "phase" or something, and it took awhile to sink in to her that it was something more permanent. If I were her, I probably wouldn't have told my husband at first either. But of course I understand your frustration there as well. It must be hard being blindsided (which was a good word you used) by all of this. 

I am sorry for the long posts, and again I sincerely hope everything turns out right for you


----------



## Vrs

Something here doesn't sound right. Either she's not being honest with you, or you're looking at your end with a little too much of rose-colored glasses, or maybe some of both. But something is missing. People don't just one day decide "I no longer have feelings for my spouse" without what they at some level consider legitimate reasons. 

So, a good thing would be to discover exactly what her reasons are, without being defensive or acting like you're accusing her of anything. 

Another thing you could try is talking with any friends you have who know the two of you and could offer you an objective opinion about your relationship as it appears to them.

But somethings not right with the situation as described. Something's still missing.


----------



## Fledgling

Vrs said:


> Something here doesn't sound right. Either she's not being honest with you, or you're looking at your end with a little too much of rose-colored glasses, or maybe some of both. But something is missing. People don't just one day decide "I no longer have feelings for my spouse" without what they at some level consider legitimate reasons.
> 
> So, a good thing would be to discover exactly what her reasons are, without being defensive or acting like you're accusing her of anything.
> 
> Another thing you could try is talking with any friends you have who know the two of you and could offer you an objective opinion about your relationship as it appears to them.
> 
> But somethings not right with the situation as described. Something's still missing.


I agree with all of this. However, based on what I've read I can give you an explanation but you may not want to believe it. You said that she didn't give you a reason and that you are actually a great catch. I believe you. And I can tell you that is a huge red flag to me that she feels utterly lost. Even though you made decisions together, as a married couple, about work and family she had to give up something. Mainly her sense of independence. Most men feel validated by being able to provide for their family. You seem to be doing that quite well. What has she been validated by? You have control over what you describe as HER business. Keeping a home and staying with the kids is very admirable and she probably does a wonderful job. But many women feel like they aren't contributing if we aren't making money and then to have our husbands swoop in be the saviour...it's a tough pill to swallow. Dollars to donuts you go to work every day and get the satisfaction of interacting with other adults, you bring home the bacon dutifully... You both chose this path together which is why she can't pinpoint a reason, but ultimately she probably feels like she had to give up more than you to make it work (especially when you consider that to make it work she had to sacrifice time with you to stay connected).

As to the sex. Well let me tell you that often times lack of sex really has nothing to do with your attractiveness and more often how she feels about herself. She sees you so rarely that she wants to rebuild a connection outside the bedroom. As someone said earlier, otherwise all she'll feel useful for is as a sexual release for you when you happen to be home. Buzzkill. Ri

She took a trip home, you say, without you. Well, you just said you can't find the time to spend with her or your daughter, but she has to ask you if it's okay to go back to the last place she felt useful and wanted --- her first home? She had a home before you and she went back there to feel something, to feel rooted. 

I have to be honest and say that if she is not cheating, and she probably isn't, she's at least ripe for an emotional affair. That being said I am uncomfortable with alot of advice I am seeing which is ultimately trying to "bag" her in an affair. That almost assuredly will push her into one if she isn't in one and ultimately makes you look kinda pathetic. You don't trust her to the point of spying on her (to whit you've found nothing anyway) because she said she's not in love with you anymore? So that makes all her motives suspect? 

I have to reiterate that you both chose this life together. This is why she can't pinpoint things for you. You want answers and you want honesty from her but how honest are you being with her? If you "suck up" time lost with her and your daughter out of necessity why is it okay for you but not for her to "suck it up" in a similar manner? She wasn't trying to be dishonest with you by not making you aware of her feelings. She was trying to hold up her end of the deal. To make the life you chose together work. And frankly, you reinforced this by telling her how necessary the current situation is. And despite your assurances that it won't be forever it feels like that for her now. 

None of this to say that you are doing anything WRONG. You aren't. It's just that a new viewpoint may make rough waters a little more navigatable. Good Luck.


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## alphabravo

"...you're looking at your end with a little too much of rose-colored glasses"

AND

You two have built up a long and detrimental pattern of miscommunication.

For some reason she has been suffering inside, deeply, about how she loves you as a man yet has lost her desire in you. Sure on the surface according to you, you are loving her the best that any man could.

Well at least any man who doesn't read. If the sex died off years ago you could have done one search on the internet and found "his needs her needs" and "5 languages of love" 

But you were too busy with work ( your love language ) and while you loved her, you were loving her in your own way without checking with her on how SHE wanted to be loved. 

Its all been so one sided for you that you think if you just do what you want and love her in the way you want, by default she has to love you.

The issue here is that unless two partners talk about their love languages, decades could go by until it surfaces and by then the amount of resentment is astronomical. 

You want to fix this? Read those books and then sell the business and for once put your marriage above your work. She could care less about your business and your money.

Put HER above everything else. You obviously loved each other long ago and you need to get back to that place soon.


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## anchorwatch

Here's a well read thread from a member in the Men's section on his wife's MLC. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27426-what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story.html


----------



## Toffer

Regardless of her reason for checking out of the marriage, DO NOT MOVE OUT

If she wants a new life, she's the one who should move out of the marital home!


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## 3Xnocharm

Mrs. NotSureWhatToDo said:


> As an alternative to the affair theory (one which you feel is not likely) here is what first popped into my mind:
> 
> You stated over and over again about the way YOU are in this marriage. Your role, the way you act, how good and balanced of a husband you are. I am not saying that you are wrong, I think all you're saying is valid and true through YOUR viewpoint, however, I can almost guarantee your wife does not agree with you on many of your points of view, and would probably have a lot of input and say on what exactly she thinks about you, and it's up to you to be open to her input, even if you entirely disagree, or even if she's blatantly wrong. Her feelings should be treated as valid, because feelings are not debatable (and men often debate them from logical standpoints)
> 
> Of course you said that she won't share her feelings with you, so my theory is some time ago, she may have had repeated instances with you in where she TRIED over and over again to have her feelings heard, validated, cared for, and understood (core needs for a women that men often have difficulty giving). After repeatedly having her feelings INvalidated by you (which is easy for men to do, as their nature is to "fix" her problems when she shares them) she slowly starts to pull away and begin to detach. I've read SO MANY marriages in which this happened, and many articles covering it, because it was happening in my marriage, until my husband learned to actively listen and validate me.
> 
> So for this theory, I would ask you to honestly look back to the times she has tried to tell you her feelings (on anything, not just big things). Did you sit quietly, hear her out, and then at the end ONLY tell her you understood and cared about what she's going through? Or did you argue/try to fix/ not reflect back her feelings (which wouldn't be wrong of you, but it would be wrong for her)?
> 
> If you're not sure, I would ask you to give it a try. She may not trust you at first, because her feelings have not been treated well by you in the past, but she'll open up once you show her you're ready to really listen (and I mean not interrupting, or raising your tone even ONCE). Also, she'll likely seem to get worse as she's unleashing feeling (sound mean, angry, or cry) but that is a good sign that you're on the right track to hearing all you need to hear, and open her back up to you again.
> 
> Anyway, that's my theory for you, and it's worth a try. From all I've seen, wives that are detaching form their husbands for these reasons still love them deep down, and it's not too late for you.
> 
> Also research techniques on how to validate your wife, and also look up articles about her core needs as a woman. It may help.
> 
> I really do hope everything works out in the end for you, your sound like you love your wife and family a lot. I wish you all the best.


This was exactly my thought when I read the OP. I have a hard time believing most of these stories where the husband is "blindsided" by the wife's unhappiness. Usually the wife HAS said something, but has been blown off, or poo-poohed, like I was. I remember telling my husband I was thinking of leaving, and being told, "things arent that bad" and that was all I got. Its pretty obvious when someone with whom you share a home is unhappy! If you are so disconnected from your spouse that you cannot SEE their unhappiness, then they really are right to end things.


----------



## anonymously

alphabravo said:


> "...you're looking at your end with a little too much of rose-colored glasses"
> 
> AND
> 
> You two have built up a long and detrimental pattern of miscommunication.
> 
> For some reason she has been suffering inside, deeply, about how she loves you as a man yet has lost her desire in you. Sure on the surface according to you, you are loving her the best that any man could.
> 
> Well at least any man who doesn't read. If the sex died off years ago you could have done one search on the internet and found "his needs her needs" and "5 languages of love"
> 
> But you were too busy with work ( your love language ) and while you loved her, you were loving her in your own way without checking with her on how SHE wanted to be loved.
> 
> Its all been so one sided for you that you think if you just do what you want and love her in the way you want, by default she has to love you.
> 
> The issue here is that unless two partners talk about their love languages, decades could go by until it surfaces and by then the amount of resentment is astronomical.
> 
> You want to fix this? Read those books and then sell the business and for once put your marriage above your work. She could care less about your business and your money.
> 
> Put HER above everything else. You obviously loved each other long ago and you need to get back to that place soon.



I hear what you are say and think in some aspects you have very valid points which I considered. However also consider that until now she has kept her feelings a secret from me. She says she has worked on her lack of interest or lack of love for past few years and yet has never brought it to me. How can you work on any relationship without the other person in the relationship. Sorry but on that one I call major BS. 

Also it is not like she doesnt work and I am the only one working all these hours. She works as well, in fact we more or less work hand in hand with the only exception being that I put more hours in. This again is the culmination of what we discussed we would be doing and there is nothing about that aspect of our lives that is a one sided surprise. 

I am not perfect by any means, nobody is. But in terms of what I think someone might want in a man or a partner I am pretty sure that I do have those traits. I only gave the description in the begining as a means of showing that I am not a drinker, partier, womanizer or any of the other things that in my mind would constitue a bad guy or bad girl (gender doesnt matter, bad is bad). 

I am certain that just as she has there have been small concerns of hers that I either overlooked or didnt pay enough attention to as they were seemingly not as important as the other bigger fish that we had to fry at that moment in time. Yet none of those ever escalated to something that would indicate something bigger and did'nt come back in a blow up later.

I can certainly learn a lot by what you are saying with regard to validating and to be honest that isnt something I have been excellent at. It's hard to not be interjecting when whats coming at you is coming in a form of an attack rather than a conversation or discussion, yet I will still say on that account probably guilty as charged more than innocent. 

She is now saying that she now wants to go to counceling, and that she doesnt want to jump to anything rash. That's a very different statement than what was initially presented to me. I still feel betrayed however due to the lack of honesty with respect to her feelings for me and I find myself posing a lot of questions to myself that I can't readily answer. 

1) If you were not honest with me for considerably over a year long...how can I trust what you are saying now about wanting to go to counceling after a few days ago telling me its over and you love me?

2) If I do go along with it...how do I know that the results that I might see in counceling are real and genuine? In other words since you hid this from me so long I know your capable of some level of being decietful. If that is so...

How do I know you wont tell me counceling did the trick and its all better even if you dont truly feel that way?

3) Am i to now just put my own needs both mentally and physically on hold just because today you said we should slow down and go to counceling? 

4) Counceling can be a long process, in the meantime should I accept dying inside and living a monk's life of celebesy while I wait for you to decide if you love me or not? How long do I wait for this? 6 months? 1 Year? 

I think its noteworthy too that the counceling and slowing down and not making any rash moves right now on her part is only coming after I woke up and decided to tell her since this is what you want then you should waste no time in finding a place to go to so that we can begin the process of setting a time line and moving your moving on.


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## This is me

Sounds like the Walk Away Wife Mid Life Crisis scenario. Know it well.

For your child you should try all you can to mitigate the damage. It is a mental glitch like any illness. It requires much patience as it can take a couple of years for them to work through it. A true roller coaster. One day things are going better, then they do something rash and you are looking to divorce. It all depends on how patient you can be without being weak.

Learn the 180, read Divorce Remedy, MC is a good sign, they will rewrite history and don't fight them too much, just listen and know they are mentally ill. The fog will lift.

Keep the boundaries that are in the 180 and always leave the door open, because they are lost souls.

Make sure you BOTH agree with the counselor you choose and agree to only work with one you both like. Remember counselors bring their own issues into the room, so if they are not Pro Marriage, do not waste your time.

You may not ever see results in MC like you describe. It may just be a room to let her work through it, so don't fight, be the bigger person and keep telling yourself she is ill, but it should pass.

It took us 2 years of work, MC's Marriage workshops, I went 6 months without because she was detached, but we saved the marriage and it was worth it. Remember the kid.

I wish you well.


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## anchorwatch

:iagree: with This is me. Sound advice.


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## ShawnD

alphabravo said:


> Well at least any man who doesn't read. If the sex died off years ago you could have done one search on the internet and found "his needs her needs" and "5 languages of love"


Those books are bullcrap. You're supposed to fundamentally change your behavior to match the other person? How about the other person grows the hell up already? Getting angry because another person doesn't do exactly what you want is like yelling at the cat because it rubs its head against you instead of hugging you.


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## MattMatt

anonymously said:


> Thanks
> 
> I have check emails that I know about and Facebook including texts etc and come up with nothing this far. My next move is to follow your other suggestions as well. What MLC? This is all new to me but I am grateful that I found this forum today. This has all been dropped on me over the past week. Also the phone log isn't much help because we get hundreds of calls a week each talking with clients so its like finding a needle in a haystack
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Throw away mobile phone?


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## MattMatt

By the way, this: "I haven't loved you in years" can be part of the Re-writing of history and blame shifting used by husbands or wives who are looking for an excuse to leave (Walk Away Syndrome) or who are using these techniques to justify their having taken a lover. Because it is all your fault, don't you know?


----------



## Sigma Uber Alles

Lots of good advice being given here, but I'm sad to say from reading your original post that your wife has all the earmarks of a woman engaged in an EA (emotional affair) that is soon to be, if not already is, in a PA (physical affair). [You may as well get used to these terms now.] 

In the off-chance possibility that she is in neither, then I would ask you to consider if she is prescribed any "anti-depressants" for whatever reason. SSRI's (a type of AD drug) are famous for killing both sexual response and emotional bonding. If she has been using these drugs, google "emotional blunting, anorgasmia, and SSRI's".

I am pretty sure if Machiavelli shows up in this thread he will confirm smelling the same scent that I do... that being "Eau de Trespasser".


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## anonymously

Sigma Uber Alles said:


> Lots of good advice being given here, but I'm sad to say from reading your original post that your wife has all the earmarks of a woman engaged in an EA (emotional affair) that is soon to be, if not already is, in a PA (physical affair). [You may as well get used to these terms now.]
> 
> In the off-chance possibility that she is in neither, then I would ask you to consider if she is prescribed any "anti-depressants" for whatever reason. SSRI's (a type of AD drug) are famous for killing both sexual response and emotional bonding. If she has been using these drugs, google "emotional blunting, anorgasmia, and SSRI's".
> 
> I am pretty sure if Machiavelli shows up in this thread he will confirm smelling the same scent that I do... that being "Eau de Trespasser".



No medications what so ever. I have found no signs of any type of EA or PA. Not sure if a PA is even possible after considering time, and time with work and daugther and the fact that our work is so intertwined. 

Actually it would be easier if there was a PA or EA, I would hate that of course but at least there would be something tangible to try to fix or deal with. Right now I have nothing other than perhaps Walk A Way Wife, and that to me is very sinister which is what leads me to think the sudden suggestion of dont rush into any decisions and i'm going to counceling and we should go too is a stall tactic because the plan has not been tought all the way through yet. 

Just dont know what to do here. Do I really want to be the one to wait on someone for months and years while we go through counceling to find out it was pointless? Why is it that I am supposed to bury my feelings, my needs and my wants while she tries to figure out if she has any of those for me? Really? That just seems wrong to me on every level and I dont think I wired that way. How can I stay with a person who doesnt have any regard for me at all and sit idely and patiently while she figures it out. If there was no child this would be a simple decision but there is and so its just a F-ed up mess of a life now.


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## anonymously

BTW, 

I hate the fact that I now have to have learned all these acronyms such as EA, PA....MLC.....SOB AND PIA...Ok so the last 2 are just what I want to be screaming but hey they still apply here...dont they? Yes, I have to keep my sense of humor at least a little or I will go utterly insane.


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## hekati

We don’t know how the chemistry works. I guess women are more complicated creatures than men. Sometimes a younger guy could flirt with us and he has the perfect body and sense of humor and success and we still fill chemistry to an older fat loser. I said “sometimes”, so, ladies, don’t attack me that you’d never ever would fall in love with a loser. I don’t think you can do much here with your sex life. But instead of hating each other and questioning if it EA or PA you’d better just stay friends no matter what. It would be the best you can do. Don’t let your emotions take over your brain. You still have some feelings to each other, you love each other as friends, and friends wants their friends to be happy.


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## Decorum

anonymously,
I am sorry for your situation. I feel like you are getting really good advise here. I will say that the men who come here with a willingness to take action and do what it takes, even ending it if necessary do much better in the long run than the door mat kind.

Whatever you decide dont lost that sense that you can move on without her if necessary. It will help you be more objective about your situation overall and make better decisions.

p.s., I do think she has pulled back as a result of your confident attitude, but still get to the bottom of it.


Take care!


----------



## Tony55

anonymously said:


> The day before yesterday she tells me that she doesnt love me anymore.
> She gives me no reasoning, there is no specific thing that she sites and swears that there is nobody else neither emotionally influencing her nor physically.


Unfortunately the only shot at flipping this around is by reciprocating the feelings and showing her the door. No arguing, no explanation, nothing, just ask her to please leave. Anything less and she stays in control of this game.

When a person comes at you with, "I don't love you anymore", oblige them, help them along, you can't force them to love you, and the harder you try, the more they'll pull away. This is called 'doing the hard thing', it's not most peoples first choice for dealing with such things, but it's certainly the one that preserves your dignity and self respect (which is an attractive characteristic that won't go unnoticed by your wife).

Based on what I've read, I feel 100% certain there are external forces at play here, another man, woman, something, there's no way she was sailing along through life, takes a vacation, and comes home to drop this bombshell on you because she had some eye opening epiphany; someone, somewhere, is influencing her heart.

T


----------



## anonymously

Decorum said:


> anonymously,
> I am sorry for your situation. I feel like you are getting really good advise here. I will say that the men who come here with a willingness to take action and do what it takes, even ending it if necessary do much better in the long run than the door mat kind.
> 
> Whatever you decide dont lost that sense that you can move on without her if necessary. It will help you be more objective about your situation overall and make better decisions.
> 
> p.s., I do think she has pulled back as a result of your confident attitude, but still get to the bottom of it.
> 
> 
> Take care!


I know that I capable of moving on with out her. It will be devastatingly painful for a while but time does have a way of healing all. That is not the issue, up until a few days ago I had not intention or feeling or thoughts of that. It's her proclaiming that she no longer is in love with me or wants to be with that makes that a reality now. 

As far as pulling back because I am confident, well that is who I am. I have always been that way. By no means am I the best looking guy or the smartest guy on the planet, never was never wanted to be. But I am completely satisfied with who I am, how I view myself and my own self image. I also know what I deserve and that is to be loved the same way that I capable of loving someone else...and so hence that is part of the big dilema. How do I turn that part of myself off and wait for someone who has to go be counceled by an outside party or force in order for them to decide if they even love me. 

This to me is far different than someone saying I love you but am going through a tough time and need help. Or I love you but am having problems right now and need you to help me through it. This is : I Dont Love You Anymore.....What Do you mean you want to leave or want me to leave? Slow down let's go to counceling and not do anything rash...Well anything rash has gone out the window dont you think?


----------



## anonymously

Tony55 said:


> Unfortunately the only shot at flipping this around is by reciprocating the feelings and showing her the door. No arguing, no explanation, nothing, just ask her to please leave. Anything less and she stays in control of this game.
> 
> When a person comes at you with, "I don't love you anymore", oblige them, help them along, you can't force them to love you, and the harder you try, the more they'll pull away. This is called 'doing the hard thing', it's not most peoples first choice for dealing with such things, but it's certainly the one that preserves your dignity and self respect (which is an attractive characteristic that won't go unnoticed by your wife).
> 
> Based on what I've read, I feel 100% certain there are external forces at play here, another man, woman, something, there's no way she was sailing along through life, takes a vacation, and comes home to drop this bombshell on you because she had some eye opening epiphany; someone, somewhere, is influencing her heart.
> 
> T


I agree with you and have already said that to several friends I have talked with. In my mind I am certain there is a 3rd baseman. I just dont know who it is or what they are saying, and I may never know and that's just the reality of it. 

The counceling and slow down comes only after me saying, Find a Place Pack your things, take what you want and go. If you dont then I will and I will have it done and have a new place set, furnished and ready by the end of the week. Now all of the sudden we are supposed to take it slow and why are you jumping the gone or going this far this fast? Well duh, the other day you said you Dont Love Me and Dont want to be with me. What should I be doing saying...Wow that's really awesome news, what's for dinner?


----------



## Racer

Tony55 said:


> Unfortunately the only shot at flipping this around is by reciprocating the feelings and showing her the door. No arguing, no explanation, nothing, just ask her to please leave. Anything less and she stays in control of this game.


Agreed. My wife is a 'glass half empty' person. So busy looking at 'what it's not' that she fails to see 'what it is'. So, empty the fn glass. She'll have a lot more to miss. An empty cup is a wake up.. Accept her terms.

And... Start working on yourself. She is no longer a concern. I'm not saying to start dating, but do start looking in the mirror and becoming a well adjusted man just living his life the best he can. You aren't doing it for her. You do it for you.


----------



## Decorum

I'm with Tony here, I have seen it before with visits home, they rekindle some old romance.

Do you know who her old connections were, doesn't have to be a old boy friend, sometimes its the guy she had a crush on but he was not interested at the time.

Anyone down there you can ask.


Also check old boyfriends facebook for new pictures.

If she starts taking about going back or even in that direction, (say half way) its a big red flag.

And Tony is right the only thing that can knock them out of the fog if they are in it is the hard slap of reality.


----------



## Tony55

anonymously said:


> The counceling and slow down comes only after me saying, Find a Place Pack your things, take what you want and go.
> Now all of the sudden we are supposed to take it slow and why are you jumping the gone or going this far this fast?


_That's like the Taliban initiating a major offensive on a forward operating base and then having second thoughts when we stand and fight. What? I thought you wanted a fight, where are you going, did you bite off more than you can chew? Slinking back into the hills won't save you, we're bringing the fight to you, we're on to you, you showed your hand, and we're going all in; don't start something you can't finish._

Anonymously, don't let up, she started this, you finish it. Things move forward on your terms now, or they don't move at all. This isn't a case of '_honey, we need to talk, I'm not happy lately_', this is '*I don't love you anymore'*!

This was a major offensive, this wasn't testing your perimeter feeling you out, she went right for the heart. She came to fight, and she underestimated your ability to take control of the battlefield.

Don't trust her with this counseling thing, she's trying to buy time, she isn't sincere, not after what she said to you.

Tell her she comes clean now, or prepare for the worse.

T


----------



## anonymously

Decorum said:


> I'm with Tony here, I have seen it before with visits home, they rekindle some old romance.
> 
> Do you know who her old connections were, doesn't have to be a old boy friend, sometimes its the guy she had a crush on but he was not interested at the time.
> 
> Anyone down there you can ask.
> 
> 
> Also check old boyfriends facebook for new pictures.
> 
> If she starts taking about going back or even in that direction, (say half way) its a big red flag.
> 
> And Tony is right the only thing that can knock them out of the fog if they are in it is the hard slap of reality.



No idea about past boyfriends that's a whole different continent. As far as fog goes that precisely why I asked her to be out within next week. This is want you want? Ok done you got it, peace be with you on the way out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonymously

A lot of people are giving some good advice which I appreciate very much. Some of you have suggested to be patient to not push to listen and validate. All good points, but what about my feelings, my validation, what about her patience and trying? Aren't relationships supposed to be a 2 way street? I'm not saying fix your feelings overnight or emotional issues over night or even I 
months. But where is the empathy for how you might be making the other person feel or how it effects them? Where is the mutual respect? And why should I be the one forced to dwell in my own loneliness while the woman who I love doesn't and won't even acknowledge my pain, feelings or what I'm now also having to go through..That just doesn't feel right to me...I don't think I can do that, maybe if I was more insecure but I am not and so those ideas are becoming increasingly more difficult to justify or consider doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123

Sorry you are going through this. If I were you I would stay in 180 mode and go to MC. You never know what the counselor or she might say or come up with. Sometimes we think things are the worst they can be and it's only months of MC later when things feel so different. 
She could be having an EA, she could be depressed, having an MLC, it could be that she's having hormonal issues or thyroid problems.
I do know that people tend to rewrite history to justify how they feel in the present moment. It happens all the time.
I would keep snooping, maybe get a VAR in her car and start MC. Just see what happens? You never know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mrstj4sho88

*I can only tell you how sorry I am for your pain. *


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## anonymously

Tony55 said:


> _That's like the Taliban initiating a major offensive on a forward operating base and then having second thoughts when we stand and fight. What? I thought you wanted a fight, where are you going, did you bite off more than you can chew? Slinking back into the hills won't save you, we're bringing the fight to you, we're on to you, you showed your hand, and we're going all in; don't start something you can't finish._
> 
> Anonymously, don't let up, she started this, you finish it. Things move forward on your terms now, or they don't move at all. This isn't a case of '_honey, we need to talk, I'm not happy lately_', this is '*I don't love you anymore'*!
> 
> This was a major offensive, this wasn't testing your perimeter feeling you out, she went right for the heart. She came to fight, and she underestimated your ability to take control of the battlefield.
> 
> Don't trust her with this counseling thing, she's trying to buy time, she isn't sincere, not after what she said to you.
> 
> Tell her she comes clean now, or prepare for the worse.
> 
> T


Love the analogy!!! 

Your right about one thing. Funny thing how the only way to solicit a response that resembles her giving a crap or even having a second thought comes after I said nothing while getting ready for work and hen just Find a place or I will and gave a brief timeline. That is reality now setting in. My exact response to counseling was along that line too. I would be happy to do it if you can convince me you're not just buying time and if you need time don't worry I'll pay for your first years rent if it gets your ass out faster. Waiting on a response on that one next time we have moment with just the 2 of us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonymously

mrstj4sho88 said:


> *I can only tell you how sorry I am for your pain. *


Thank you Mrstj....that quite possibly is the shortest and most comforting thing anyone has said to me all day!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO

DavidWYoung said:


> Mrs. NotSureWhtToDo might very well be right, but that is water under the bridge now. I have been on this forum for two years now and it seems that your story and my story are repeated everyday.
> I used to laugh when people would say "It is what it is!" or "Bitc%s Be Crazy!" but maybe they are right. It is just that simple. Just my 2 cents. Very sorry that you are in this club now. David


Agree. Also, (again assuming Mrs. NotSureWhtToDo is right about the wife feeling marginalized) it could be that Anonymous did not / would not see her perspective as reasonable or actionable.

He seems like a dedicated guy and my gut says he would be sensitive to her requests and hints for accomodation. But if she, hypothetically, came to him with "you need to make more money so I don't have to work", for instance, he could have blown it off as too unreasonable to bother.

Anonymously: I don't want it to sound like Mrs. NotSureWhtToDo's advice is without merit, because that is certainly not the case. Rather, I would caution you against giving in to whatever demands she has in order to get her to stay.


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## Tony55

anonymously said:


> I would be happy to do it if you can convince me you're not just buying time and* if you need time don't worry I'll pay for your first years rent if it gets your ass out faster.*


That was absolutely perfect, beautiful. 

Stand fast, prepare your heart for the worst. As she becomes desperate she'll come at you like a cornered tiger and start lashing out with hateful accusations to hurt you. Hold your ground, the truth will come out eventually.

T


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## Decorum

Someetimes the need time to convince themselves that the Om is a sure thing, if there is one.

I would like to see you add to your offer to pay "as long as there is no other man" if you are going to do that.


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## ComicBookLady

DTO said:


> Anonymously: I don't want it to sound like Mrs. NotSureWhtToDo's advice is without merit, because that is certainly not the case. Rather, I would caution you against giving in to whatever demands she has in order to get her to stay.


I agree, if she's feeling unheard/unvalidated, it's not that you're to give into whatever she wants, that would be going into the conversation with the wrong mind in place. Your goal is to only listen and consider her feelings and needs (your viewpoints need to be put away temporarily) as to better understand how she feels. By doing this you're not compromising your own viewpoints or admitting any wrong, or changing anything, but you're giving her a precious gift of understanding her and caring about the pain she's in. 

From that open mind, you can both find a way to fix the issue in which you're BOTH happy (compromising).


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## ComicBookLady

Anonymous, I still see signs that the issue may be that her feelings are not being properly heard/validated and she pulled away for that reason. I am almost CERTAIN she cried Wolf to you (or in this case she cried Separation/Divorce/I don't love you) in a desperate attempt to get you to pay attention to her feelings and concerns and take them seriously. Women do this A LOT (heck I still do it when I get really frustrated, it's stupid I know). We often do it because _ when we told our husbands our feelings outright they were not taken seriously or validated or even considered_ so we try other methods to get your attention to try and get you to pay attention to our pain. I know it's not right and never works the way we hope it would, but from our standpoint we just don't know what else to do.

So when she was faced with the reality of you actually going forward with separation, she got scared and pulled back to her real position; which is that she doesn't want a divorce yet, but wants to work on issues in MC. So obviously she has input she wants you to hear, and all MC really does is teach you to better communicate and give each other space to speak and listen. I guarantee you'll be taught about validation there. 

I can tell you have a lot of resentments towards her behaviors from the previous posts, and I completely understand why you would feel hurt and angry that she wasn't open with you from the beginning, but I would hope you could be open that maybe she tried to reach you in the past and found you unreachable for some reason, and so pulled away. I think she would be very open to hearing the pain she caused you if you open up to her, and she would like to opportunity to apologize for causing you hurt.

Again I hope all gets worked out. You sound like a very decent loving husband who is very logical and straight-forward, and honestly, she sounds like a typical wife who unknowingly (by you) was emotionally left behind by her husband, but who also still loves her husband very much. I think you'll find each other again


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## hookares

3Xnocharm said:


> This was exactly my thought when I read the OP. I have a hard time believing most of these stories where the husband is "blindsided" by the wife's unhappiness. Usually the wife HAS said something, but has been blown off, or poo-poohed, like I was. I remember telling my husband I was thinking of leaving, and being told, "things arent that bad" and that was all I got. Its pretty obvious when someone with whom you share a home is unhappy! If you are so disconnected from your spouse that you cannot SEE their unhappiness, then they really are right to end things.


I can assure you that if a guy isn't well educated, a lot of things that are obvious to others will escape him if for no other reason than that he is forced to put most of his effort into providing for the family unit. However, I suspect that this isn't the case with the OP but I have no idea what the issues may be.
Perhaps she feels that she's been the driving force in the business he shares with her and she thinks she can do better elsewhere. I know it to be fact that some women think like this and won't change their mode of operation even after many failures.
Just my opinion, but I feel she is selfish and is thinking only of herself and definitely not about their child nor her husband.


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## DTO

anonymously said:


> A lot of people are giving some good advice which I appreciate very much. Some of you have suggested to be patient to not push to listen and validate. All good points, but what about my feelings, my validation, what about her patience and trying? Aren't relationships supposed to be a 2 way street? I'm not saying fix your feelings overnight or emotional issues over night or even I
> months. But where is the empathy for how you might be making the other person feel or how it effects them? Where is the mutual respect? And why should I be the one forced to dwell in my own loneliness while the woman who I love doesn't and won't even acknowledge my pain, feelings or what I'm now also having to go through..That just doesn't feel right to me...I don't think I can do that, maybe if I was more insecure but I am not and so those ideas are becoming increasingly more difficult to justify or consider doing.


Completely agree. Unless there is a truly extenuating circumstance, selling yourself out to the extent you feel you are getting little or nothing out of the marriage is too high a price.

Your priority needs to be to see the attorney you selected and sign up with him or her only if you feel he or she "gets" what you want as far as an outcome (otherwise keep looking - you can find tons near any courthouse). Then, make it clear to your attorney and your wife that your priorities are (1) to maximize your custody share of your son's time, and (2) minimize the amount of money you will owe your wife.

This is really a time when you should hope for the best while planning for the worst. You absolutely must protect yourself going forward. Moreover, if she needs a wakeup call to shock her into working on the relationship, maybe realizing she will lose her son every other week and not get much money for support will make her think.


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## Fledgling

OP, I just wanted to ask if you still love your wife. What does love look like to you? You want to be able to trust her, right. So far that's gone up in flames. Does she bring nothing else to the table, all things being equal? She continuously hurts you. You give and you give (apparently) and she just keeps kicking you while you are down? The reality is that we hurt our spouses all the time. Over big things and little things. We are all stupid, neglectful, passive aggressive etc etc etc sometimes we are all these things all at once. If she decides to stay, and you let her stay, right now will your trust in her be magically restored? My guess would be no. And neither will hers in you. So here's the thing was your love together previously worth it. Is it worth it to regain what was lost. If you truly love her you will say yes. You will unconditionally go to counseling. Maybe she is playing you right now. But you'll never know if she wasn't. You'll never know if you could have gotten your marriage back. Which is what you claim to want. Maybe you'll both go to counseling and come out of it saying that was was the stupidest thing we've ever done and promise to never let things get so bad and blown over the top. You'll never know if you can't do a few things unconditionally despite your heartache.


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## Bearded Lion

*ANONYMOUSLY-*

I'm about to get intense on you because I almost lost the woman I loved, almost lost my marriage and family, almost turned my life upside down and it's about to happen to you too! I don't want that and neither do you!

I've gone through (still going through, really, and continuing to learn and grow) basically the exact same situation as you (even worked at home together in the same field), and things got bad and I didn't understand, but I'm overcoming to have a successful, thriving marriage and family rather than accepting a failed marriage as an option, so I hope you'll take this in. Things aren't perfect in our marriage, but they're getting better and better as I learn how to adapt.

*Clearly you love your wife and you want to stay together and clearly your wife loves you and wants to stay with you.* Are you willing to do everything it takes to keep this marriage? Even if you don't understand everything she feels? Even if it feels wrong or unfair? How important is this to you? Are you man enough?

Here are some principles that will hopefully help you understand what's going on and how to take control of the situation -- not of your wife, not of the conversation, not of the feelings expressed, but of the success of your marriage! 

I'll add that when I say YOU I typically mean US and WE, because we're very similar and all men are.

First, *YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR WIFE WANTS AND NEEDS!* No, really you don't. We think we do. We're men, that's our nature. We're logical and prideful. You think you're logically a good husband (from a man's perspective) and you think you're completing the husband tasks that you're supposed to be doing, but that is a MAN'S opinion. Women are completely different beings from men with completely different core needs. MEN DON'T UNDERSTAND WOMEN. And when we don't understand something and can't figure it out, especially when it comes to feelings then it must be wrong or crazy. But it's not. That's your wife's heart you're talking about. You can't fit women into this man's logic box. Square peg in a round hole.

So, what's wrong? Is she crazy? Of course not? Are you a horrible person? I doubt it!

*We have to swallow our pride and stop trying to find ways that we're doing everything right > so it makes no sense that she's unhappy > so something must be wrong with HER!*

If you were doing everything for this woman that loves you that SHE needs (not that you think is logically a good husband role) then she would be head over heels about you. I'll say that again, MEN! If we're perfect husbands, than why are our wives upset at us or feeling hurt of unloved by us? BECAUSE WE'RE NOT AS GOOD AS WE THINK WE ARE! We're great on paper, in a room full of men, but not in a room full of women because they don't value the same things we do.

Women don't need to be fixed, they need to be VALIDATED. They need to feel CHERISHED. They need to feel like you care deeply about their feelings and that you're always accessible and caring, even when you're busy with work.

*So, ask yourself: Why didn't my wife feel like she could come to me with how she felt?* BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T THINK SHE COULD COME TO YOU WITH HOW SHE FELT! Because she didn't think you'd receive it well. Because she didn't want to hurt you. Because she didn't understand them yet. Because of a million reasons that we probably can't even understand. But she didn't do it to be shifty. That's nonsense. Women try to figure out their feelings with you, and when they don't feel like they can, they do it on their own and sometimes get closed off because of it. She wasn't unattracted to you, she was missing having her core needs met so she COULDN'T feel attracted. Women need to have their core needs met or they can't open up to you. She felt lost.

*SHUT UP! *Yes, that sounds harsh, but here's what we do (and this has always been a huge problem for me). We ask a woman what's wrong? She starts to tell us and if we don't like something or don't agree, we argue that point or that logic. Or if we see a logical solution to how she's feeling, we step in and start trying to solve it. She doesn't want or need that so shut up and listen. She wants you to listen and really care about her feelings. Women sharing their feelings are a gift to you. She feels so comfortable and comforted by you that she care open up her heart. So be quiet and listen and take it in. Don't argue, don't try to fix it or offer a solution to how she can feel better. She doesn't want/need to hear "You shouldn't feel that way, because..." or "Don't feel that way..." Just listen and listen some more. Let her get it all out and try to find the thing she's really trying to say, which is most likely "I understand how you could feel that way, honey. I love you." That is SO powerful in your marriage. Don't just say it, but try to feel it. Her feelings aren't crazy, they're valid and you care about them and you love her.

This part is tricky, as women get their feelings out it POURS out, sometimes very emotionally, sometimes angry, sometimes confusing, sometimes repetitive, but SHUT UP! Keep your mouth shut even if it's driving you crazy or your feelings or pride are hurt. Because this is a good thing. She's trusting you, she's comforted by you listening and not reacting. She's opening up. LET HER, because on the other side is a happy wife who got her feelings out. This is an amazing thing.

*WHAT YOU'RE DOING ISN'T WORKING!* So stop and try something new! Einstein said it: _"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."_

If you want to be successful here, you need to stop, listen, and learn from her what SHE needs to be happy. As soon as you do, it opens the floodgates of love for her and she will give it abundantly to you. TRUST ME! I've seen how my wife responds to being validated. You will get everything you want out of this marriage if you meet her core needs. Trust me, my wife wanted a divorce too. 

Do you have feelings here too? Of course you do. So did/do I. And your feelings matter to her, too, and she'll totally take care of your feelings once she feels like you care about hers. But you gotta step up and save your marriage right now so drop the pride and hurt and open your hear up to your wife. She needs you. She doesn't want to lose you any more than you want to lose her. You don't want your life turned upside down, do you?

Don't be a marriage failure. Failure is not an option. Be the HERO of your marriage by taking care of your wife first. HAPPY WIFE = HAPPY LIFE! I promise you.

*WATCH THIS!*

*WATCH THIS SERIES!*

*READ THIS!* No joke! It really will help you understand!

*PUT THE SAME EFFORT AND THOUGHT INTO LEARNING YOUR WIFE'S NEEDS AND HOW TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE AS YOU DO LEARNING YOUR BUSINESS! PUT IN WORK!! *

That's it, man. If you want to talk more in depth about this and want some examples of how it's worked in my marriage, let me know, but please get your mind and heart open before you lose everything.


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## mrstj4sho88

anonymously said:


> Thank you Mrstj....that quite possibly is the shortest and most comforting thing anyone has said to me all day!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*You are very welcome *


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## TomorrowNeverKnows

Allow me to offer some of advice from the point of view of your wife. You can read everything I write as if it were her own words.

I've been struggling with the fact that I don't love my wife for years. I've never dared to tell her. She believes we have a good life together. She is a good person, and though she has he faults, is nothing but deserving of the love I cannot provide to her. We both love our kids with all our hearts, and want nothing but the best for them. When I first realized that there was little or no passion left in the relationship, I was in a bit of denial. I thought it was just a phase all married couples went through. Life was pretty good so day-to-day it was easy to suppress those feelings of emptiness. I became a damn good actor because I tried to believe the lie myself. You con yourself into thinking everything’s fine as you don’t want to hurt your spouse, your kids, or jeopardize the life you “think” you have. Then one day, a triggering event occurs. It’s neither an affair nor a sexual encounter. It’s a chance meeting, a great conversation, with undoubtedly a little flirting. First you’re infatuated like a school boy. But that always wears off. I suspect this happens to most people at some point in their marriage and it’s probably healthy. You’re SUPPOSED to just cast those fleeting thoughts aside, and remind yourself of your love and commitment to your spouse. You wouldn’t even consider acting on those impulses. But for those of us who are living in denial, it’s a triggering event. You are filled with this horrible emptiness - a realization that you’re living your life without any passion or love. This has happened to me several times over the years. Sometimes it lasts for a day or two. A couple times it lasted for weeks. I would walk around in a daze almost feeling like I was having an out of body experience. You start to hate yourself because your spouse has done nothing wrong. They have NO IDEA you don’t love them. You want to love them but you simply can’t. One day THE triggering event occurs, the one that makes you feel ill for weeks. The one that becomes so unbearable you have to tell your spouse how you really feel because you cannot live with yourself anymore. This is undoubtedly what happened to your wife some time during her trip home. She didn’t necessarily have an affair. Actually, if I had to guess, she didn’t. If she did, she would have no reason to hide that from you. I think, actually I know, it’s easier to tell someone that you cheated on them than to admit you haven’t loved them for years. I know you might not believe or understand this, but she has been trying to “work” on the relationship and “fix” things for years. But there is nothing wrong with you or your relationship with her, so it’s not traditional couple’s therapy. There is something wrong with her (me) and she needs to sort that out. You very well might not be a part of that. I feel sorry for you and your kids. You’re story is playing out exactly as I fear mine would, which I why I have the daily turmoil of keeping my true feelings from my wife. I’m counting the days until my kids are off to school, but does that make things any better to walk away then? I'm not sure if this is helpful in any way but at least it should give you some perspective...


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## betrayed2013

very similar story to what has transpired over the last year with my marriage. Married 8 years, 2 kids and everyone was just great, or so I thought. Nov 2011----wife sz she is just feeling low and down not sure why. I suggest maybe she is having some depression issues. She goes to dr. and he sz she is too and puts her on anti-dep. drugs
Dec 28---2011---wife states in tears that she is questioning the marriage and doesnt kno why. Cant pinpoint anything and this is out of the blue and hasnt felt this way before. Sz she loves me.
Jan 2012----starts therapy sessions. I go once with her and counseller sz to back off and give her some space, which I dont really do at all, since I feel my marriage is crumbling and as a man I need to act to save it asap. Call it panic if you will. Big mistake....
Feb 2012----wife goes on cuba trip with 2 married g/f's thinking that a getaway in the hot sun will help her. She comes back even worse as reality hits hard.
Mar 2012---goes on diff. anti depress and within 5 weeks starts feeling great again.
April 2012---goes to a club with a bunch of g/f. Gets drugged in drink, no one knows where she was for at least an hour and a half. Cops call me I have to p/u my wife who is coming out of her drugged state. Could have been date raped for all I know, she still has no recollection of events from 1am till cab ride home which was approx 230.
July 2012----find out thru f/b msgs that she had an affair with another guy 14 years younger, shes mid 30's. Approx from End of March till Early June. She contacted him while drunk in mid july and never deleted msgs, cuz she didnt think I had access to her account. She was wrong!
Aug-till Dec.......constant struggle with marriage. She went to worse depression and I struggled daily with trust issues. This was a woman who I trusted with all my heart and she crushed it, becuz she questioned the marriage and sought attention from younger guy. Apparently never got as far as sex, but i'll never know the truth. 
Dec 2012---told her if she wanted to leave, then im not goin to stop her. Told her I think its a mistake and I dont want her to go, but I would not stand in her way........things seem to change at that point.
She seems to be more invested in marriage now since I gave her the go ahead to leave. Maybe it was a reality check? Idk. but she seems more into sex, more into me and her family. couldnt tell ya if shes lying to herself or coming out of her fog. I still have trust issues but I have no proof of anything.

My advice to u is this.......keep an eye on her activity for affair reasons, but dont smother her with ur love. It doesnt work. thats what I did and others on here will tell u the same. Pull a 180 and show u can live without her and succeed without her. Loving her too much will put too much pressure on her and u will be pushed away even farther. 

I think mine is coming out of a midlife crisis as we speak. She matched up with 17 of 26 signs of a female midlife crisis. Tatttoos, affair, questioning marriage, trying to look young, dress young, stay young. the list goes on and on. Thats prob. what your wife is going thru. Theres nothing u can do about it.

Keep an eye out for another man. I never thot in a million years my wife would devastate me with an affair after devastating me with her words of quesitoning the marriage. The signs of an affair my wife had was changing her f/b password, keeping the phone close to her at all times, hiding her friends list, liking a certain p.o.s. fb postings a lot more than anyone else. Stuff like that got me suspicious. They're not that bright when in a fog and living like a teenage girl. The man can spot it from a mile away since he is in desperation mode while wifey just wants to live a single life. 

Keep ur head up and i feel for u. Im still going thru it and it does get better. I got a 6 yr old that I would die for and saving my marriage was my only choice or partial custody which to me is unacceptable.


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## F-102

I'll throw my oar in here, for what it's worth.

It could be depression, and she is searching for the cause of her feelings. Believe me, I know: when a person feels like that, they will question every influence in their lives, and like a murder case, the spouse is always the first suspect.

Now, some say an affair may be occurring, and I'm apt to agree with them. But you say that you've found no evidence. If there is indeed an OM, he may have prior experience with married women, and has made sure she covers her tracks so she won't get caught: i.e., pay-as-you-go phones, secret e-mail accounts, laptops or i-pads that you don't know about, etc.

And don't rule out snail mail, either. There was one guy whose wife was going thru e-mails, texts, phone bills, and could find no evidence either. Turns out, he and his OW were sending each other old-fashioned love letters using official business envelopes from their job, and using official-looking mailing address labels. The wife never thought to look in his "work related" mail.

And don't think that her GFs will give you any info, either. If she's close to them, they are more than likely covering for her. Women are thick as thieves when it comes to one of their own and their happiness, especially if they think that you are "all wrong" for her and the OM makes her happy.

Now, if there ISN'T an affair going on, it doesn't necessarily mean one isn't far from her mind. Is your W reasonably attractive? Is she energetic and bubbly around a friendly crowd? She may be getting hit on by other men, and has so far rebuffed them like a good wife should, but over time, she may be wondering if she has "settled" for the man she has, and may believe that greener pastures await.


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## sinnister

ShawnD said:


> Those books are bullcrap. You're supposed to fundamentally change your behavior to match the other person? How about the other person grows the hell up already? Getting angry because another person doesn't do exactly what you want is like yelling at the cat because it rubs its head against you instead of hugging you.


I have literally been searching for the right words for years and finally somebody else said them.

I could not have said this better myself. The idea that one much change fundamentally because their partner had decided they no longer like the way you love them is complete nonsense. And if you end up losing that person because of it, they weren't the right one to begin with.


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## This is me

anonymously said:


> A lot of people are giving some good advice which I appreciate very much. Some of you have suggested to be patient to not push to listen and validate. All good points, but what about my feelings, my validation, what about her patience and trying? Aren't relationships supposed to be a 2 way street? I'm not saying fix your feelings overnight or emotional issues over night or even I
> months. But where is the empathy for how you might be making the other person feel or how it effects them? Where is the mutual respect? And why should I be the one forced to dwell in my own loneliness while the woman who I love doesn't and won't even acknowledge my pain, feelings or what I'm now also having to go through..That just doesn't feel right to me...I don't think I can do that, maybe if I was more insecure but I am not and so those ideas are becoming increasingly more difficult to justify or consider doing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I totally get it, but she is to put it blunt ...mentally ill in the MLC state of mind. It is a fog. In hindsight, it is very clear to me now that she was lost and confused, but driven by the thoughts that her depression had to be my fault. They don't get it and neither do you right at the moment.

If you think she does, you are fighting her at her mental level. If you step back and be objective the end result will better you whether or not this relationship will stand the test of time.

You do have a child right? Put them above this all.


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## anonymously

Wow where to begin...

Last night I took a combination of all the advice on here and layed it all out on the table. It was the first time in a long time that I can remember that we had an actual meaningful and honest conversation. Here's how it went down...

I approached her and put arms on her arms and made sure I had direct eye contact. I said to her as I looked in her eyes with tears in mine as I choked up... I Love You with all my heart, and I will do or change anything it takes in order to save our marriage. You are the most important thing in the world to me and do not want to loose you. 

And then I fell on the sword and told her that much of this is probably my fault for not being a good listener and I failed to acknowledge her in many ways. (I dont believe this in my heart but I swallowed my pride and said as sincerely as I possibley could have) I told her how important it was for me to do so and that i was sorry for not realizing that sooner. 

We talked about some of the resentments that she may have, and some of the things that I may have felt that I did not tell her in the past. After hours and hours of what seems like the first honest conversation she has had with me in a very long time. She told me she feels empy emotionally and doesnt feel any love for me. She said this has been going on for what amounts to over 5 years, but at times would subside and then come back. I had no way of knowing what she was going throuhg and told her I did not know and I was so sorry for not being a good enough husbad to see it and help her with her agony. 

She didnt become any more receptive to acknowleding any love for me other she at one point told that she did love me but that she was not in love with me in any way. She has completely closed herself off from any physical contact with not just sexually speaking but completely. It's all pretty much off the table for her now, yet she still wants to go to counceling. She said she is willing to do councelling and work on the marriage but could not promise that she will feel anything for me ever again. More or less most of the times we were having sex over the past 5 years she said she wasnt into it and was only faking it to be try to be a good wife but she didnt want to be there. Out of all those times, she says there were a handful that she was into it but most times she was not and just didnt show it or hid it very well. 

I feel worse then I did before having come to realization that she doesnt really care about me personally at all. I think that it is only the stigma of the divorce and what her life will be like without me and my support that is making her upset at the prospect of leaving. She wants her cake and eat it too and I am not the type to be ok with that type of relationship. She cares so little for me that went as far as suggesting that she is ok with me going outside of the marriage to get my needs fulfilled at some type of a massage place or a hooker. Wait What? Are F-Ing mad? There is never a time that I would consider any of this. Who the F do you think I am? And why the hell after having you pretend to love and like me all these years would I then go pay someone to do relatively the same thing but now pay for someone to do the same thing to me? No thank you. I dont need you and I dont need to pay anyone to pretend to like me. I deserve someone who will want to be with for me. For the person I am, for the soul I have inside me, and for the looks that I have as part of the entire package which is me....

I dont know I could not see how soulless she is? She is the F*CK*NG anti christ (sorry to be vulger here but believe me that is putting it mildly). This is not the person I thought she was or that I married, Its not the person I ever thought she could be capable of being...yet that brings me no more comfort and makes it no easier. 

We are going to go to the councelor regardless. I have already committed to that and so will follow it through, but honestly I dont see what the hell the point is or why I am even going. All I see it doing right now is causing me even more pain, but I suppose if nothing else maybe I might and she might learn to get along after a divorce and that is in the best interest of our child.

Have to be honest here, I broke down several times just writing this...I haven't cried much in my life other than a few isolated times. The past week I have cried more than anyone should in a lifetime  .....everything is broken now


----------



## tom67

Sorry, you got your answer. Kick out the cake eating biotch before you go insane.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ComicBookLady

anonymously said:


> Wow where to begin...
> 
> Last night I took a combination of all the advice on here and layed it all out on the table. It was the first time in a long time that I can remember that we had an actual meaningful and honest conversation. Here's how it went down...
> 
> I approached her and put arms on her arms and made sure I had direct eye contact. I said to her as I looked in her eyes with tears in mine as I choked up... I Love You with all my heart, and I will do or change anything it takes in order to save our marriage. You are the most important thing in the world to me and do not want to loose you.
> 
> And then I fell on the sword and told her that much of this is probably my fault for not being a good listener and I failed to acknowledge her in many ways. (I dont believe this in my heart but I swallowed my pride and said as sincerely as I possibley could have) I told her how important it was for me to do so and that i was sorry for not realizing that sooner.
> 
> We talked about some of the resentments that she may have, and some of the things that I may have felt that I did not tell her in the past. After hours and hours of what seems like the first honest conversation she has had with me in a very long time. She told me she feels empy emotionally and doesnt feel any love for me. She said this has been going on for what amounts to over 5 years, but at times would subside and then come back. I had no way of knowing what she was going throuhg and told her I did not know and I was so sorry for not being a good enough husbad to see it and help her with her agony.
> 
> She didnt become any more receptive to acknowleding any love for me other she at one point told that she did love me but that she was not in love with me in any way. She has completely closed herself off from any physical contact with not just sexually speaking but completely. It's all pretty much off the table for her now, yet she still wants to go to counceling. She said she is willing to do councelling and work on the marriage but could not promise that she will feel anything for me ever again. More or less most of the times we were having sex over the past 5 years she said she wasnt into it and was only faking it to be try to be a good wife but she didnt want to be there. Out of all those times, she says there were a handful that she was into it but most times she was not and just didnt show it or hid it very well.
> 
> I feel worse then I did before having come to realization that she doesnt really care about me personally at all. I think that it is only the stigma of the divorce and what her life will be like without me and my support that is making her upset at the prospect of leaving. She wants her cake and eat it too and I am not the type to be ok with that type of relationship. She cares so little for me that went as far as suggesting that she is ok with me going outside of the marriage to get my needs fulfilled at some type of a massage place or a hooker. Wait What? Are F-Ing mad? There is never a time that I would consider any of this. Who the F do you think I am? And why the hell after having you pretend to love and like me all these years would I then go pay someone to do relatively the same thing but now pay for someone to do the same thing to me? No thank you. I dont need you and I dont need to pay anyone to pretend to like me. I deserve someone who will want to be with for me. For the person I am, for the soul I have inside me, and for the looks that I have as part of the entire package which is me....
> 
> I dont know I could not see how soulless she is? She is the F*CK*NG anti christ (sorry to be vulger here but believe me that is putting it mildly). This is not the person I thought she was or that I married, Its not the person I ever thought she could be capable of being...yet that brings me no more comfort and makes it no easier.
> 
> We are going to go to the councelor regardless. I have already committed to that and so will follow it through, but honestly I dont see what the hell the point is or why I am even going. All I see it doing right now is causing me even more pain, but I suppose if nothing else maybe I might and she might learn to get along after a divorce and that is in the best interest of our child.
> 
> Have to be honest here, I broke down several times just writing this...I haven't cried much in my life other than a few isolated times. The past week I have cried more than anyone should in a lifetime  .....everything is broken now


First of all BIG HUG for you. What a difficult thing you've just gone through... I am so sorry it was so hard on you 

I know you cannot feel it right now because everything is not 100% better right now, and there is a lot of raw pain exposed, but you took a HUUU-UUUUGE monumental step in the right direction. Before this, nothing could be helped until you are both completely honest and have laid everything on the table to each other, and now you both are doing it now. That is GREAT. Now soon you can start rebuilding.

Please understand that if it is indeed 5 years of detachment you're fighting, then you have a larger hill to climb to fix it all, and that's why things weren't visually better last night. Please please keep it up. Keep listening if she comes to you, keep showing her love, keep being respectfully honest to her about your feelings. Go to counseling with her. After that, the rest is up to her if she is able to come back or not. 

While the detachment MAY have gone on for too long, what I am hearing it's absolutely not too late. _She still wants marriage counseling = she still wants to fix it with you_. Until she delivers divorce papers to you and follows through, then in her mind it's not too late either, whether she realizes it or not. 

As for the hooker suggestion, I absolutely can understand how that could make you feel, and I'm glad you would not follow through. She may feel _right now_ that she's detached enough to allow it, but I know deep down (where your loving wife has run to hide from her marriage) she hates the idea. And I guarantee you showing you detest the idea meant the world to her.

With you putting forth the proper measures like this to TRY and fix things from your side, if it indeed does end (which I don't think it will) then you will know you did all you could. And that is a valuable thing to have.

As for your feelings towards your wife right now, your pain is valid and it's okay to feel that way. She is indeed NOT the same woman you married, she's buried under 5 years of detachment, and it'll take some work to get her back, if you are willing to help her. If you can manage it, try not to let your anger at the situation color as a villain trying to use you (something a lot of men will suggest you do), because that's most likely not true, though I can understand why you would feel that way.

Again, good job. I think you are a great person for doing what you did.


----------



## warlock07

She is seeing someone else....What you did is quite common and what you got in response happens frequently too.


----------



## staystrong

You're in a rough spot, my friend. 

You HAVE to find out if there's an OM. I know you're reeling at the moment but you need to get active. Things could start to go downhill very fast. If there's an OM, the MC is meaningless. In fact, many MC's will validate her feelings and sabotage your chances at saving the marriage. You've already admitted to too much fault as it is. And what did she come clean with? Did she sob and tell you the ways she could have done better, too? If not, there's trouble here.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Bearded Lion said:


> *ANONYMOUSLY-*
> 
> I'm about to get intense on you because I almost lost the woman I loved, almost lost my marriage and family, almost turned my life upside down and it's about to happen to you too! I don't want that and neither do you!
> 
> I've gone through (still going through, really, and continuing to learn and grow) basically the exact same situation as you (even worked at home together in the same field), and things got bad and I didn't understand, but I'm overcoming to have a successful, thriving marriage and family rather than accepting a failed marriage as an option, so I hope you'll take this in. Things aren't perfect in our marriage, but they're getting better and better as I learn how to adapt.
> 
> *Clearly you love your wife and you want to stay together and clearly your wife loves you and wants to stay with you.* Are you willing to do everything it takes to keep this marriage? Even if you don't understand everything she feels? Even if it feels wrong or unfair? How important is this to you? Are you man enough?
> 
> Here are some principles that will hopefully help you understand what's going on and how to take control of the situation -- not of your wife, not of the conversation, not of the feelings expressed, but of the success of your marriage!
> 
> I'll add that when I say YOU I typically mean US and WE, because we're very similar and all men are.
> 
> First, *YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR WIFE WANTS AND NEEDS!* No, really you don't. We think we do. We're men, that's our nature. We're logical and prideful. You think you're logically a good husband (from a man's perspective) and you think you're completing the husband tasks that you're supposed to be doing, but that is a MAN'S opinion. Women are completely different beings from men with completely different core needs. MEN DON'T UNDERSTAND WOMEN. And when we don't understand something and can't figure it out, especially when it comes to feelings then it must be wrong or crazy. But it's not. That's your wife's heart you're talking about. You can't fit women into this man's logic box. Square peg in a round hole.
> 
> So, what's wrong? Is she crazy? Of course not? Are you a horrible person? I doubt it!
> 
> *We have to swallow our pride and stop trying to find ways that we're doing everything right > so it makes no sense that she's unhappy > so something must be wrong with HER!*
> 
> If you were doing everything for this woman that loves you that SHE needs (not that you think is logically a good husband role) then she would be head over heels about you. I'll say that again, MEN! If we're perfect husbands, than why are our wives upset at us or feeling hurt of unloved by us? BECAUSE WE'RE NOT AS GOOD AS WE THINK WE ARE! We're great on paper, in a room full of men, but not in a room full of women because they don't value the same things we do.
> 
> Women don't need to be fixed, they need to be VALIDATED. They need to feel CHERISHED. They need to feel like you care deeply about their feelings and that you're always accessible and caring, even when you're busy with work.
> 
> *So, ask yourself: Why didn't my wife feel like she could come to me with how she felt?* BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T THINK SHE COULD COME TO YOU WITH HOW SHE FELT! Because she didn't think you'd receive it well. Because she didn't want to hurt you. Because she didn't understand them yet. Because of a million reasons that we probably can't even understand. But she didn't do it to be shifty. That's nonsense. Women try to figure out their feelings with you, and when they don't feel like they can, they do it on their own and sometimes get closed off because of it. She wasn't unattracted to you, she was missing having her core needs met so she COULDN'T feel attracted. Women need to have their core needs met or they can't open up to you. She felt lost.
> 
> *SHUT UP! *Yes, that sounds harsh, but here's what we do (and this has always been a huge problem for me). We ask a woman what's wrong? She starts to tell us and if we don't like something or don't agree, we argue that point or that logic. Or if we see a logical solution to how she's feeling, we step in and start trying to solve it. She doesn't want or need that so shut up and listen. She wants you to listen and really care about her feelings. Women sharing their feelings are a gift to you. She feels so comfortable and comforted by you that she care open up her heart. So be quiet and listen and take it in. Don't argue, don't try to fix it or offer a solution to how she can feel better. She doesn't want/need to hear "You shouldn't feel that way, because..." or "Don't feel that way..." Just listen and listen some more. Let her get it all out and try to find the thing she's really trying to say, which is most likely "I understand how you could feel that way, honey. I love you." That is SO powerful in your marriage. Don't just say it, but try to feel it. Her feelings aren't crazy, they're valid and you care about them and you love her.
> 
> This part is tricky, as women get their feelings out it POURS out, sometimes very emotionally, sometimes angry, sometimes confusing, sometimes repetitive, but SHUT UP! Keep your mouth shut even if it's driving you crazy or your feelings or pride are hurt. Because this is a good thing. She's trusting you, she's comforted by you listening and not reacting. She's opening up. LET HER, because on the other side is a happy wife who got her feelings out. This is an amazing thing.
> 
> *WHAT YOU'RE DOING ISN'T WORKING!* So stop and try something new! Einstein said it: _"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."_
> 
> If you want to be successful here, you need to stop, listen, and learn from her what SHE needs to be happy. As soon as you do, it opens the floodgates of love for her and she will give it abundantly to you. TRUST ME! I've seen how my wife responds to being validated. You will get everything you want out of this marriage if you meet her core needs. Trust me, my wife wanted a divorce too.
> 
> Do you have feelings here too? Of course you do. So did/do I. And your feelings matter to her, too, and she'll totally take care of your feelings once she feels like you care about hers. But you gotta step up and save your marriage right now so drop the pride and hurt and open your hear up to your wife. She needs you. She doesn't want to lose you any more than you want to lose her. You don't want your life turned upside down, do you?
> 
> Don't be a marriage failure. Failure is not an option. Be the HERO of your marriage by taking care of your wife first. HAPPY WIFE = HAPPY LIFE! I promise you.
> 
> *WATCH THIS!*
> 
> *WATCH THIS SERIES!*
> 
> *READ THIS!* No joke! It really will help you understand!
> 
> *PUT THE SAME EFFORT AND THOUGHT INTO LEARNING YOUR WIFE'S NEEDS AND HOW TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE AS YOU DO LEARNING YOUR BUSINESS! PUT IN WORK!! *
> 
> That's it, man. If you want to talk more in depth about this and want some examples of how it's worked in my marriage, let me know, but please get your mind and heart open before you lose everything.


This is one of THE best posts I have read on here yet! :smthumbup:


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

warlock07 said:


> She is seeing someone else....What you did is quite common and what you got in response happens frequently too.


I agree that this is the most likely thing that is going on here. Also, you may have to take what she said about the last 5 years with a grain of salt. Almost no one could fake 5 years of happiness to the point that the spouse is oblivious. What most likely happened is that she "reassessed" her marriage after she began to get her needs met somewhere else and has changed the history in her mind. It's called rationalization. Plenty of people on here have experienced it first hand. I have not experienced infidelity in my own marriage, but this is classic psychology that people will try to use in order to either suppress their guilty consciences or they will do this ala the "fox and the sour grapes" to help themselves feel better about not being able to have something they desire. 

Also, I feel bad that you "fell on your sword". IMHO, that was a mistake that helped solidify for her the story that she constructed in her mind. Whether she is literally cheating on you (which I suspect is happening) or if she is trying to squelch her feelings for you for some other reason, you basically confirmed her current view of you. I'm sorry.


----------



## This is me

anonymously said:


> Wow where to begin...
> 
> Last night I took a combination of all the advice on here and layed it all out on the table. It was the first time in a long time that I can remember that we had an actual meaningful and honest conversation. Here's how it went down...
> 
> I approached her and put arms on her arms and made sure I had direct eye contact. I said to her as I looked in her eyes with tears in mine as I choked up... I Love You with all my heart, and I will do or change anything it takes in order to save our marriage. You are the most important thing in the world to me and do not want to loose you.


I read this far and thought....There is a Big Mistake. This is not from the 180 playbook. This is the same mistake I made and many other here have. You look weak and unattractive with the begging and pleading. Read the 180 and live it!!!!!


----------



## This is me

She is in a fog and you are playing to her illness like she is normal right now.


----------



## This is me

anonymously

I can tell you that what you are writing is almost exactly what happened to me. 

I saved my marriage. Do you want to save yours or play into her mental illness and divorce needlessly? Because you are doing it all wrong if you want your child to have his parents stay married.

Divorce lawyer$ love this crap.


----------



## alte Dame

I'm with the posters who think there's an OM. She's playing by all of those rules. She sees you as the reliable sadsack H who can't attract a woman, so she's gifting you with herself - if she feels like it. She went to her hometown & came back with certain ideas planted in her head. I suspect she has had something brewing with an old flame or acquaintance and the trip home was to test things. You're still her backup plan, though, so she reacts when you show some strength.


----------



## tom67

alte Dame said:


> I'm with the posters who think there's an OM. She's playing by all of those rules. She sees you as the reliable sadsack H who can't attract a woman, so she's gifting you with herself - if she feels like it. She went to her hometown & came back with certain ideas planted in her head. I suspect she has had something brewing with an old flame or acquaintance and the trip home was to test things. You're still her backup plan, though, so she reacts when you show some strength.


Time to kick her out you need space show strength and resolve you can do it.


----------



## anchorwatch

I'm not so sure. But I do think the 180 is in order, either way.


----------



## Tony55

anonymously said:


> She said this has been going on for what amounts to over 5 years, but at times would subside and then come back.


So essentially this has been going on since the baby was born... there's your starting place.

Cry alone, don't show her anymore emotions, in fact, she doesn't deserve to see someone cry over her, it just feeds her already malformed impression of you.

The child birth and the love lost are too close together to be unrelated, it could be a coincidence, but it's worth looking into.

Still, you're only shot of ever reigniting any kind of love from her remains in your ability to reject her with cordial confidence. Be strong, and be a gentleman, I know it's hard, but that's your best shot.

T


----------



## anonymously

Tony55 said:


> So essentially this has been going on since the baby was born... there's your starting place.
> 
> Cry alone, don't show her anymore emotions, in fact, she doesn't deserve to see someone cry over her, it just feeds her already malformed impression of you.
> 
> The child birth and the love lost are too close together to be unrelated, it could be a coincidence, but it's worth looking into.
> 
> Still, you're only shot of ever reigniting any kind of love from her remains in your ability to reject her with cordial confidence. Be strong, and be a gentleman, I know it's hard, but that's your best shot.
> 
> T


I don't necassarily have an issue with the rejection part. In fact that was and is my gut response based on my own persona. If there was no child involved this to me would have been a no brainer. You dont want me? Ok fine, too bad for you. I never have in the past nor will in the future have too hard of a time finding women. Not to say I was a womanizor by any means, far from it. But history tells me that luckily for whatever reason women...well other woman to find me to be attractive. 

The issue is this, and the 180 plays a part in this. If this is the path I go...and she does in fact move out. Once that is done, it is not something that I can or would be willing to undo. I can love you till the cows come home. But if you leave thinking the pasture is greener on the other side and find yourself suddenly sitting in a pile of turds that rittle your new pasture, you are going to have to eat SH*T because I will not be anyones back up, settlement plan or anything of the sort. If you are out, then you better be prepared and stay the hell out. There is zero chance after that of taking her back. By then it's too easy to move on and I will have at the very least in quick order either via a friendship or more discovered what being around mentally healthy women who have interest in who I am as a person is. I deserve far better than this type of banana rama cooco for cocoa puffs garbage and far more than this.

If the answer to the question would I allow anyone to treat me this way or do this to me if I didnt have a child is...not in a million years then should it make so much difference that I do have a child? What am I teaching my child? Will my child then grow up learning from this and be the type that allows abuse? Reducing their own self esteem or what they will accept because they saw daddy doing this and mommy was dishing it out so this is an acceptible behavior? This is not a lesson that I will ever want to teach my child, and its not what I wish for them. 

Actually all that I have done so far has conflicted with who I am at my core, and my own core beliefs in what I feel I deserve to be treated like. Maybe it's time to go back to my core and do what my gut told me initially. Clear out half of what's in the accounts, remove my name from theme. Give a 5 day move out deadline, and if not just go get myself an awesome beach house grab half the crap and go. You can take the rest and stick it where the sun dont shine....Why should I continue to punish myself for someone who cant begin to comprehend what I am being put through and what I am doing sacrificing of myself by even remotely putting up with any of it?


----------



## This is me

I understand the frustration, but I give up. Good luck!


----------



## Sigma Uber Alles

betrayed2013 said:


> very similar story to what has transpired over the last year with my marriage. Married 8 years, 2 kids and everyone was just great, or so I thought. Nov 2011----wife sz she is just feeling low and down not sure why. I suggest maybe she is having some depression issues. She goes to dr. and he sz she is too and puts her on anti-dep. drugs......
> .


I stopped reading right there... I KNEW WITHOUT A DOUBT how that story was going to end. From first hand experience I can tell you that SSRIs and many other anti-depressant prescription drugs are a certain death sentence for human relationships. They work by retarding the brain centers involved in feeling emotional highs and lows, feeling bonding, closeness, or a sense of belonging or desire. Many cause anorgasmia, emotional blunting, or trigger manic behavior.

You will be shocked to find out what percent of the population is on these drugs (most of them women by a wide margin). They don't call America "Prozac Nation" for nothing and it is destroying us.


----------



## Fledgling

Oh Wow OP that is so rough I can't even begin to tell you how sorry I am. 

Right now neither of you is in a position to rebuild anything. There is no trust. I understand all the advice that you are getting to validate her. It is really good advice. I think, though, neither of you were at the point where it could do the _most _good. It can never harm a situation to validate it but you guys just weren't at that place. You didn't believe it (you said so yourself) and she didn't believe you meant it. Even if she believed you it may have come off as too little to late. Remember she has convinced herself rather deeply. You had this raw conversation and she looks bad right now but how worse off are you really after you put the ugly emotions aside. You were no further forward but really she hasn't said anything new right?

Okay, I know that this is going to sound really really girly, and naive, and a load of bull, and maybe even a little bible thumperish  You may want to watch a particular movie called Fireproof. You can stream it on Netflix. It has Kirk Cameron and the acting all over is so cheesy you're going to be like really, really this is supposed to help me with my marriage? Dude, I am telling you it is a really good lesson on how to _do _love even if you don't feel it. It can get a little preachy in spots so if that is not your cup of tea just take what you can. There is also a companion book called the Love Dare. You can get both at the local library if you don't want to "waste" money on "crap". Now you don't have some of the addictions that the main character has and you've both already agreed to counseling, so you already have a leg up, but I feel with authority that you are going to do a double take when you see the depiction of his wife. In the movie she developed an EA with someone even. Right now you can't even prove that without turning into a snooping vindictive person. 

Right now you guys are on a track to hurt one another as much as possible. Right now if you get a divorce your gonna be damned if you're going to let her humiliate you even more. So to counteract that you will most likely want to be the one to humiliate her first. Expose her for "who she really is". Is that you? If you divorce it will be on your terms. You're going to teach her a lesson. You're gonna be the better parent (and she'll take exception to that having stayed home with your child for how long?) 

If you do divorce you don't really want to perpetuate that dysfunctional cycle do you? 

I wish a magic genie could come to you so you can wish away these horrible feelings and think with a clearer head. No matter what path you choose I hope that it works out. Good Luck.


----------



## Sigma Uber Alles

anonymously said:


> Wow where to begin...
> 
> Last night I took a combination of all the advice on here and layed it all out on the table. It was the first time in a long time that I can remember that we had an actual meaningful and honest conversation. Here's how it went down...
> 
> I approached her and put arms on her arms and made sure I had direct eye contact. I said to her as I looked in her eyes with tears in mine as I choked up... I Love You with all my heart, and I will do or change anything it takes in order to save our marriage. You are the most important thing in the world to me and do not want to loose you.
> 
> And then I fell on the sword and told her that much of this is probably my fault for not being a good listener and I failed to acknowledge her in many ways. (I dont believe this in my heart but I swallowed my pride and said as sincerely as I possibley could have) I told her how important it was for me to do so and that i was sorry for not realizing that sooner.
> 
> We talked about some of the resentments that she may have, and some of the things that I may have felt that I did not tell her in the past. After hours and hours of what seems like the first honest conversation she has had with me in a very long time. She told me she feels empy emotionally and doesnt feel any love for me. She said this has been going on for what amounts to over 5 years, but at times would subside and then come back. I had no way of knowing what she was going throuhg and told her I did not know and I was so sorry for not being a good enough husbad to see it and help her with her agony.
> 
> She didnt become any more receptive to acknowleding any love for me other she at one point told that she did love me but that she was not in love with me in any way. She has completely closed herself off from any physical contact with not just sexually speaking but completely. It's all pretty much off the table for her now, yet she still wants to go to counceling. She said she is willing to do councelling and work on the marriage but could not promise that she will feel anything for me ever again. More or less most of the times we were having sex over the past 5 years she said she wasnt into it and was only faking it to be try to be a good wife but she didnt want to be there. Out of all those times, she says there were a handful that she was into it but most times she was not and just didnt show it or hid it very well.
> 
> I feel worse then I did before having come to realization that she doesnt really care about me personally at all. I think that it is only the stigma of the divorce and what her life will be like without me and my support that is making her upset at the prospect of leaving. She wants her cake and eat it too and I am not the type to be ok with that type of relationship. She cares so little for me that went as far as suggesting that she is ok with me going outside of the marriage to get my needs fulfilled at some type of a massage place or a hooker. Wait What? Are F-Ing mad? There is never a time that I would consider any of this. Who the F do you think I am? And why the hell after having you pretend to love and like me all these years would I then go pay someone to do relatively the same thing but now pay for someone to do the same thing to me? No thank you. I dont need you and I dont need to pay anyone to pretend to like me. I deserve someone who will want to be with for me. For the person I am, for the soul I have inside me, and for the looks that I have as part of the entire package which is me....
> 
> I dont know I could not see how soulless she is? She is the F*CK*NG anti christ (sorry to be vulger here but believe me that is putting it mildly). This is not the person I thought she was or that I married, Its not the person I ever thought she could be capable of being...yet that brings me no more comfort and makes it no easier.
> 
> We are going to go to the councelor regardless. I have already committed to that and so will follow it through, but honestly I dont see what the hell the point is or why I am even going. All I see it doing right now is causing me even more pain, but I suppose if nothing else maybe I might and she might learn to get along after a divorce and that is in the best interest of our child.
> 
> Have to be honest here, I broke down several times just writing this...I haven't cried much in my life other than a few isolated times. The past week I have cried more than anyone should in a lifetime  .....everything is broken now


Two comments...

1) She IS DEFINITELY involved with somebody else and has been for a while.

2) Your "sensitive" approach makes you look weak in your woman's eyes and does nothing but make you look less attractive to her. Her "bad boy", whoever he is, is what is causing her limbic "fog" and making her rewrite history to justify rejecting you.

The truth will come out eventually.


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## Sigma Uber Alles

This is me said:


> I read this far and thought....There is a Big Mistake. This is not from the 180 playbook. This is the same mistake I made and many other here have. You look weak and unattractive with the begging and pleading. Read the 180 and live it!!!!!


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## ShawnD

Sigma Uber Alles said:


> You will be shocked to find out what percent of the population is on these drugs (most of them women by a wide margin). They don't call America "Prozac Nation" for nothing and it is destroying us.


Much of it related to the decline of cigarette smoking.
Nicotine as an Antidepressant? | Psych Central News


> The team found that participants who wore the nicotine patch for at least eight days experienced a significant decline in their depression-assessment rating scores. McClernon said this finding indicates that the drug led to an improvement in depression symptoms.
> 
> As a possible explanation for how nicotine exerts its beneficial effect, McClernon said: “The same areas of the brain that are stimulated by nicotine appear to be involved in the regulation of mood.”
> 
> Nicotine stimulates the release of specific neurotransmitters, including serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine, which carry messages between nerves cells. Depression has been linked to chemical imbalances of these neurotransmitters, McClernon said.
> 
> Looking ahead to possible therapeutic uses of nicotine for treating depression, the researchers say the nicotine molecule can be manipulated to remove its addictive effect while maintaining its ability to increase levels of the various brain chemicals that can alter mood. Currently, pharmaceutical companies are developing nicotine like drugs that target chemical imbalances in the brain that are thought to cause anxiety, schizophrenia, attention deficient hyperactivity disorder, Alzheimer’s disease and Parkinson’s disease.


Nicotine is also a very effective way to treat dementia. Dementia is strongly correlated to a decline in acetylcholine activity, and Nicotine activates nicotinic acetylcholine receptors.


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## Tony55

ShawnD said:


> Dementia is strongly correlated to a decline in acetylcholine activity, and Nicotine activates nicotinic acetylcholine receptors.


I don't know what a nicotinic acetylcholine receptor is but I agree that way too many people are drugged up, whether it's beer, wine (Valium in a bottle), SSRI's, weed, whatever, all of it detaches a person from reality, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

Anon, are you sure your wife isn't taking any medications; maybe she had postpartum depression and started taking something for it 6 years ago?

I know that not knowing why a spouse flips the switch on you is a tough thing to come to terms with, there's always a reason, affair, medication, something, hell you can't even rule out a brain tumor, does she have migraines, anything like that?

T


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## anonymously

Went to the first therapy session. She found the counselor. First thing that happens is counselor fills out her little intake form asking her for her vital info name address, date of birth etc. never asked for mine, not even my name. So I stop it in its tracks and say don't you want my information since its my checkbook you are being paid out of? She says your wife called me first for herself so she is my client not you. So I say well she is no longer here by herself she called you and said we are coming together for couples counseling. Do you as a counselor believe its conducive to alienate the other party from the very beginning of our sessions? 

At the end I asked the therapist "what kind of techniques do you use" and what will you be utilizing for us as we progress. She gives me an answer "oh I have homework that I will be assigning you". That's it? What the F kind if answer is that. Last I checked homework is not a technique.

She's a therapist like I am a lobotomist. A frontal lobotomy would me more effective.

Amazingly she (wife) sees nothing wrong with that and somehow tries to turn it back on me as being difficult.

It's becoming clear that when she said she doesn't love me that was the only truth I ever got. Everything else is a stall tactic to give her time to set herself up. I am done with this crap. It's over and so is her abuse. 

The End of the road for her is now
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame

That was an ambush therapy session. I wouldn't go back to that therapist ever. She will undoubtedly affirm everything your W tells her & point the finger at you. And how is any therapist going to make your W think she loves you again? She's not. She's going to enable the end of your marriage. That's what that therapist will do.


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## Bearded Lion

I've acted like you're acting many times and guess where it got me? Closer to divorce!

You're acting defensive, prideful, and spiteful because you're upset about the situation not being fixed already when you tried, but listen up: You think ONE conversation (that it sounds like you did too much talking about your feelings in and not enough listening to her feelings) is going to fix 5 years of feeling lost in your relationship with her?

You think going to ONE therapy session and being on the defensive and instantly challenging everything the person trying to help you is saying is going to fix things?

Slow down, re-read what I said and stop yourself before you ruin your life. Your wife wouldn't be in a therapy session if she didn't love you, she would have walked out and left you.

You need to be quiet and listen to how your wife feels and learn from it.

Stop thinking you've done enough and do something to fix this. You'll know when you do enough when your marriage is fixed, anything else is you failing and you're only going to have yourself to blame if you don't.

Oh, and that thing about the hooker, she was probably worried about that and trying to see if that was something you had done, or were interested in doing because she felt bad that you hadn't had a physical relationship in a long time. Women don't have the same motivs as men. 9/10 it's because of something they feel bad about or self-conscious about. And of course she didn't really want you to go to a hooker. Come on!!

I'm telling you, stop yourself from ruining this and do what it takes to make your wife feel loved in your marriage. YOU HAVEN'T DONE ENOUGH UNTIL YOUR MARRIAGE IS FIXED.


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## Trying to get through it

If I didn't know better I would have thought that you we writing this for/ about me. This is my story to but mine is with a few different twists. 

And I thought I was the only one. 

My wife told me that she was not in love with me in December 2012...while in bed on the morning of our 19th anniversary after moving herself and our 3 kids to our beach house 4 months before. Our dream and plan was to be there as a family by the end of the year...or so I thought. 

I to was blindsided, shocked...pick an adjective!

Only to find out that I was set up to fail, I was duped. 

Similarily, we have businesses together, several homes and what I thought was the perfect life. We never fought, argued about money, work, kids or anything. We have no addictions. she had no restrictions placed upon her by me. she could do whatever she wanted, go where she wanted, buy what she wanted. She to said she started these feelings about two years prior but never told me. She didn't even think I would go to counseling with her. Our sex life was great and she admits that but can't tell me why she wants out. 

Now that I am several hundred miles away taking care of our businesses day to day and traveling on the weekends to be with my kids and trying to save what shred of our marriage is left and now I find out that there has been an affair (possibly 2) in the last 4 months

The question of the kids come up, what is best for them and who should they live with. 

She has taken a job, that I fully supported before I knew any of this. She likes it and is performing well enough at it but it has a schedule that is unpredictable and takes her to work every Saturday and Sunday. It will also occupy holidays

We have great kids but they are teenagers and they will push the envelope and with so much unsupervised time I worry. I am killing myself trying to be there 3 out of 4 weekend a month. on the weekends I don't fly in, I have a 12 hour one way drive. 

I feel that my environment would provide much more stability, Their old friends that they have grown up with since birth in a small mid west town, a church they like, closer to family and cousins and the activity level I can provide and the time and resources to do it. My businesses are predictable as far as my time and I am not in hot pursuit of a mateplay mate

The hard part is that I still love her and am not at the point of hate or anger. I can forgive but she wants nothing to do with me on an intimate level, although we are probably best friends and want it to stay that way. 

We two are starting therapy.

I don't know why I just wrote all lof this but it does feel good to know that there is someone else with almost a mirror situation.

I am looking forward to progress posts


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## anonymously

Bearded Lion said:


> I've acted like you're acting many times and guess where it got me? Closer to divorce!
> 
> You're acting defensive, prideful, and spiteful because you're upset about the situation not being fixed already when you tried, but listen up: You think ONE conversation (that it sounds like you did too much talking about your feelings in and not enough listening to her feelings) is going to fix 5 years of feeling lost in your relationship with her?
> 
> You think going to ONE therapy session and being on the defensive and instantly challenging everything the person trying to help you is saying is going to fix things?
> 
> Slow down, re-read what I said and stop yourself before you ruin your life. Your wife wouldn't be in a therapy session if she didn't love you, she would have walked out and left you.
> 
> You need to be quiet and listen to how your wife feels and learn from it.
> 
> Stop thinking you've done enough and do something to fix this. You'll know when you do enough when your marriage is fixed, anything else is you failing and you're only going to have yourself to blame if you don't.
> 
> Oh, and that thing about the hooker, she was probably worried about that and trying to see if that was something you had done, or were interested in doing because she felt bad that you hadn't had a physical relationship in a long time. Women don't have the same motivs as men. 9/10 it's because of something they feel bad about or self-conscious about. And of course she didn't really want you to go to a hooker. Come on!!
> 
> I'm telling you, stop yourself from ruining this and do what it takes to make your wife feel loved in your marriage. YOU HAVEN'T DONE ENOUGH UNTIL YOUR MARRIAGE IS FIXED.


Listen I have no doubt in my mind this was not the right therapist. No professional will alienate a client from the first 30 seconds of meeting. None. Far as saving it, believe me I would love to do that. That requires two people not just me alone. If there were a single shred of indication that she still had feelings for me I would walk through crushed glass. But not only is there not, there also is no empathy what so ever. None, not a shred of any basic human kindness toward me. At the end of the day, she is the one who left me out of the equation here when she decided not to include me and put on the facade. She kept it up for years. The only truth I have gotten is that she is afraid of moving on too fast because she fears what she will do without me yet that isn't even enough reason to stay with me. The only other thing I hear from her is that if I leave I better be prepared to pay up. Not in terms of our child but alimony too. That will be a cold day in hell, I'm sorry you work and make the same if not more than me. You are perfectly capable and educated to make it on your own. 

I wish I could save it I really do and I want to. But I am being walked on and abused and it isn't coming from a place of wanting salvation with me. It's purposely trying to hurt me and when she sees I won't allow her to hurt me anymore in one way she finds another way. She doesn't appear to care about me, she cares about stalling this long enough to make sure she can get by with out me. It's sad, and it's tearing me apart, but I have to stop the abuse and at least keep my dignity. I'm all for working hard and keeping the pain inside for the sake of the woman I love but not for the sake of being a door mat. I can't be that for anyone, not even her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bearded Lion

I promise you, you are wrong.

If you really want to save this marriage, you will. If you don't, you won't. Get over your pride and "dignity" and do what your wife needs. She didn't leave you, you didn't give her the environment where her needs were met and she could open up to you. YOU left her 5 years ago and she's been alone this whole time while you go on about your day thinking everything is fine. She would have told you, she would have opened up to you, if she felt like she could.

Want do you get by holding onto this "dignity?" Nothing! You'll be alone, no wife, kids lives turned upside down, but you'll have your dignity? PLEASE! "Being walked on and abused?" COME ON, MAN! That's nonsense. She's felt out of love with you and you can decide to show her what she's been missing, be the man she needs, meet her core needs, or you can run off to lick your wounds.

You're not being a doormat, you're growing up, figuring out that men and women are different with different needs, and being the hero of your family. NOT giving up to keep your "dignity."

What happens in your marriage now is your choice. You gonna give up and let her go or are you going to fix your marriage? Are you going to let divorce happen to you, the woman, you love, and your kids?


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## Bearded Lion

I should add, I do understand how you're feeling, because I was feeling the exact same way. It's natural for men to react this way when hurt and confused. My marriage was almost over and I was sitting on my high horse saying "I did everything I could and she's being unreasonable and she's the one ending it, so there. I have my dignity. I'm not a floor mat!" And that was all nonsense. My wife wasn't attracted to me, fell out of love with me, and I had my "dignity?" I flipped it around. My wife feels validated, cherished, loved, and special, and NOW I have my pride and dignity because I AM a good husband FOR MY WIFE! Not for a man's idea of what is a good husband. She's VERY attracted to me now!

Your feelings are immature, just as my feelings were immature. Do you have what it takes to be a husband? A father? Would you let your career go down in flames like this because of dignity? Don't let your family. Man up and do what it takes to take care of them. You're not losing any pride or dignity by making your wife feel better!


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## hookares

anonymously, let's cut to the chase. The reason you are trying to resuscitate your dead marriage is because nobody likes to be a "loser". Take it from this boards biggest loser when I tell you that it won't take six months for you to get over not having this lode stone hanging around your neck any longer should you just get on with the divorce and let her go screw over some other guy.
Sorry to be so blunt.


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## anonymously

Trying to get through it said:


> If I didn't know better I would have thought that you we writing this for/ about me. This is my story to but mine is with a few different twists.
> 
> And I thought I was the only one.
> 
> My wife told me that she was not in love with me in December 2012...while in bed on the morning of our 19th anniversary after moving herself and our 3 kids to our beach house 4 months before. Our dream and plan was to be there as a family by the end of the year...or so I thought.
> 
> I to was blindsided, shocked...pick an adjective!
> 
> Only to find out that I was set up to fail, I was duped.
> 
> Similarily, we have businesses together, several homes and what I thought was the perfect life. We never fought, argued about money, work, kids or anything. We have no addictions. she had no restrictions placed upon her by me. she could do whatever she wanted, go where she wanted, buy what she wanted. She to said she started these feelings about two years prior but never told me. She didn't even think I would go to counseling with her. Our sex life was great and she admits that but can't tell me why she wants out.
> 
> Now that I am several hundred miles away taking care of our businesses day to day and traveling on the weekends to be with my kids and trying to save what shred of our marriage is left and now I find out that there has been an affair (possibly 2) in the last 4 months
> 
> The question of the kids come up, what is best for them and who should they live with.
> 
> She has taken a job, that I fully supported before I knew any of this. She likes it and is performing well enough at it but it has a schedule that is unpredictable and takes her to work every Saturday and Sunday. It will also occupy holidays
> 
> We have great kids but they are teenagers and they will push the envelope and with so much unsupervised time I worry. I am killing myself trying to be there 3 out of 4 weekend a month. on the weekends I don't fly in, I have a 12 hour one way drive.
> 
> I feel that my environment would provide much more stability, Their old friends that they have grown up with since birth in a small mid west town, a church they like, closer to family and cousins and the activity level I can provide and the time and resources to do it. My businesses are predictable as far as my time and I am not in hot pursuit of a mateplay mate
> 
> The hard part is that I still love her and am not at the point of hate or anger. I can forgive but she wants nothing to do with me on an intimate level, although we are probably best friends and want it to stay that way.
> 
> We two are starting therapy.
> 
> I don't know why I just wrote all lof this but it does feel good to know that there is someone else with almost a mirror situation.
> 
> I am looking forward to progress posts


Wow, I am sorry you are dealing with this too. I know how incredibly painful it is first hand. I believe that one way or another things will work well for both us regardless which path our lives will take. My deepest wish is that we each find the strength and deal with it and get to the outcome we both want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonymously

Bearded Lion said:


> ^ Gonna take advice from the self-proclaimed board's biggest loser who's wife is off with some other guy? (sorry)
> 
> < Or from the guy who resuscitated his marriage and now has a wife who's head-over-heels for him, is a wonderful mother to his children, while balancing a very successful career, and walks with ACTUAL pride and dignity because HE took charge of his life, his marriage, his family, and himself, and everyone is happy and thriving?
> 
> What do you want your future to look like? Broken family, sitting alone with your "dignity" or success, love, happiness, and raising your legacy?


Thanks Bearded, I think I needed that more than anything and struck a emotional cord because I am choked up writing this. I feel many things right from hurt to anger but most of I am lost. This is most confusion I have ever felt. I hope I can be half the man you are. Thank you for being who you have become.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

His wife is not into him and with him begging and pleading is getting nowhere. He has to be willing to lose the marriage in order to save it. the mc is total b^llsh!t she's playing him until she leaves.:slap:


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## Entropy3000

Interesting thread. Makes me think we have a group of folks from another forum or planet. There may be a reason they have gravitated to this particular thread. But no matter.

Anyway, never, never, never, give up your dignity or your integrity. If you do you have nothing. You then have nothing of value to give anyone else.

A quality woman needs a strong man. You do not save a marriage by being weak. You take positive steps to enagage and save your marriage. 

If you wish to save your marriage your wife right now is counting on your being strong and being assertive. IF there is an affair MC will do you no good. There may indeed be a need for therapy here but not until you have ruled out the affair. 

You cannot work on the marriage until that is over with and until she goes through withdrawal. Even then it takes two people to make this work. So if you flat cannot find anything evidence and you want to pay for professional help you might try a PI.

Then you can engage a therapist that you interview and approve. If you are paying the therapist make sure your are their client.

Your wife may have lost her mind one way or another. No need to do the same. Be the man. Be accountable. be compassionate but do not be a dormat. If she has you have to think for the both of you and maybe flat just move on.


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## Bearded Lion

anonymously said:


> Thanks Bearded, I think I needed that more than anything and struck a emotional cord because I am choked up writing this. I feel many things right from hurt to anger but most of I am lost. This is most confusion I have ever felt. I hope I can be half the man you are. Thank you for being who you have become.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wonderful! Thank YOU for being man enough to listen. It's NOT going to be easy, but you have to grow and become better, just like I did. You're fixing 5 years of your wife's emotional turmoil. Imagine how long it would take and how hard it would be to fix five years of accounting issues or back-owed taxes, or credit problems. Well, it's even harder to repair a woman's heart. But, you CAN do this!!!!!

It's not begging and pleading or being a doormat, it's swallowing pride, figuring out what your wife needs to be happy and providing it for a LONG time. It won't happen over night. You have to take yourself to the next level and be the husband your wife needs for long enough for her to believe it's real and trust it and open up her heart again. If she feels cold, it's because you made her cold, don't give up, keep warming up her until she's TOASTY!

*VISUALIZE IT THIS WAY: If you found your wife, confused and alone in the arctic, near death, doesn't even remember that you're her husband and you were in love, would you do everything you could to warm her up and bring her back to life, or would you get frustrated that it wasn't happening fast enough, give up and walk away from her?

Would you be focused on how cold and hurt YOU are? NO WAY! Your only care would be saving your wife and getting your wife back to your kids and keeping your family together. You'd break your back to save her in that way, even if you were having marriage issues, too! This is the same thing. Save your wife! Save your family!*

Makes more sense now, doesn't it?


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## tom67

Bearded Lion said:


> Wonderful! Thank YOU for being man enough to listen. It's NOT going to be easy, but you have to grow and become better, just like I did. You're fixing 5 years of your wife's emotional turmoil. Imagine how long it would take and how hard it would be to fix five years of accounting issues or back-owed taxes, or credit problems. Well, it's even harder to repair a woman's heart. But, you CAN do this!!!!!
> 
> It's not begging and pleading or being a doormat, it's swallowing pride, figuring out what your wife needs to be happy and providing it for a LONG time. It won't happen over night. You have to take yourself to the next level and be the husband your wife needs for long enough for her to believe it's real and trust it and open up her heart again. If she feels cold, it's because you made her cold, don't give up, keep warming up her until she's TOASTY!
> 
> *Visualize it this way: If you found your wife, confused and alone in the arctic, near death, doesn't even remember that you're her husband and you were in love, would you do everything you could to warm her up and bring her back to life, or would you get frustrated that it wasn't happening fast enough, give up and walk away from her?
> 
> Would you be focused on how cold and hurt YOU are? NO WAY! Your only care would be saving your wife and getting your wife back to your kids and keeping your family together. You'd break your back to save her in that way, even if you were having marriage issues, too! This is the same thing. Save your wife! Save your family!*
> 
> Makes more sense now, doesn't it?


Warm her until she's toasty? What is she a pop tart?


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## Entropy3000

Bearded Lion said:


> ^ Gonna take advice from the self-proclaimed board's biggest loser who's wife is off with some other guy? (sorry)
> 
> < Or from the guy who resuscitated his marriage and now has a wife who's head-over-heels for him, is a wonderful mother to his children, while balancing a very successful career, and walks with ACTUAL pride and dignity because HE took charge of his life, his marriage, his family, and himself, and everyone is happy and thriving?
> 
> What do you want your future to look like? Broken family, sitting alone with your "dignity" or success, love, happiness, and raising your legacy?


Or you could listen to me. A guy with a loving wife who never cheated on him. Trust me, wives like strong men who keep their integrity intact. They know they can count on their man.

You do not have to sacrifice your integrity to have a happy marriage. In fact if you settle for that you ruin your chances of staying married period.


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## Bearded Lion

My wife never cheated on me, and I doubt Anonymously's has either. We're talking about a woman who no longer feels connected and in love to the man she was connected and in love with.

And if you've never had that problem, then you don't know how to solve it and NO he shouldn't listen to you in this instance.


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## Fledgling

I agree with bearded lion. In fact I was also struck by the fact that you just described yourself as lost. Now imagine feeling the way you feel right now for 5+ years. That ought to provide some perspective whenever you feel the need to give up. 

IMHO, your wife wouldn't have married you if you were vengeful and spiteful or distrustful. Do you think acting that way will win her back now? MC sucks, dude, especially at the beginning. I would suggest that you keep going but make it clear that you would like to find another therapist if the next few sessions don't go very well. Whatever you do, don't quit therapy, just switch therapists. Most therapists would rather refer you to someone else than keep you in their office going nowhere.


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## ComicBookLady

I love all that Bearded is saying. He's saying it MUCH better than I could.

I don't agree with what most men in this forum think of as "strength". And it makes me sad to see it preached so often here where people are hurting and really need good advice.

What IS strong to me? Swallowing pride, admitting mistakes, and evolving/changing for the better. That is not being weak, that takes more strength than almost anything in the world! Being a bully and doing whatever we want takes no strength at all.


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## Blonde

Ya Bearded! Please stick around! 

I'm new myself and already sick of 180 "get new clothes, workout at the gym, and go out to bars and flirt with OW" being suggested to men who are already away from home most of the time and neglecting their wives and marriages...

Marriage advice shouldn't be exported if it FAILED! Just sayin'


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## btdt

You seem to be getting two very different types of advice from the posters, and you seem to be trying to implement both approaches simultaneously. I don't believe this is going to work.

On the one hand people are telling you that the problems are primarily due to your lack of attention to the marriage, and they seem to be implying that you need to be doing the heavy lifting to fix the marriage. While they recognize your hurt, they don't acknowledge your wifes role in repairing the marriage. On the other hand, you have posters telling you that your wife has checked out of the marriage, is probably in an affair, and you should be doing a hard 180 to start the process of moving on with your life. Both sides in this arguement are drawing on the personal life experiences which may or may not be applicable to your present situation.

The simple truth is that no one knows the outcome to your current problem. At this point it doesn't sound like you wife knows what she wants. The only things you can go by are what she has told you and demonstrated, which are that she hasn't loved you for several years (and has backed that up through her lack of intimacy), that she is not sure she wants to stay married with you, but that she is willing to pursue marriage counseling. The only semi-encouraging of those items is the marriage counseling.

You've acknowledged that you haven't been perfect in your marriage and that you could have done more to meet her needs. I do think that if she had clearly told you what the problems were, that you would have made the efforts to preserve and strengthen the marriage. But she has done a lot to cripple this marriage by not clearing communicating with you, by deceiving you into thinking things were better than they were, and by not caring enough to try to work on the problems.

She has clearly fractured your trust in her. So if you make the decision to pursue marriage counseling, you need to make it clear that you are also evaluating whether you want to remain married to her and you should go in with some clear expectations in mind for the counseling such as:


She is exhibiting many behaviors that are common to women having an affair. So she needs to know that you need to take steps that will give you reasonable comfort that there isn't another man in the picture. This may involve access to her phone, computer, etc. 
She needs to define clearly what her problems are in the relationship and, with the help of the MC, give you steps to help you address these problems.
She needs to take steps towards developing intimacy with you. The only honest communication that she has had with you over the past several years is the lack of intimacy. She has demonstrated exactly how she felt by withholding intimacy. So her reestablishing intimacy is really the only way that you can trust that she does love you.
She needs to work on her communication skills to start addressing problems with you before they become major issues.


I also think you need to put some timeframes around these goals. Perhaps you will need to tell her you that you will be reevaluating the progress over after 3-4 months to determine whether you should continue couseling or being pursuing divorce.

Hopefully, my suggestions can help you reconcile the two different camps of advice that you've been getting. You should be willing to pursue MC but only if she is committed to it as well. And if she is not making a good faith effort, then she needs to know that you will pull the plug and move on with your life.


----------



## tom67

btdt said:


> You seem to be getting two very different types of advice from the posters, and you seem to be trying to implement both approaches simultaneously. I don't believe this is going to work.
> 
> On the one hand people are telling you that the problems are primarily due to your lack of attention to the marriage, and they seem to be implying that you need to be doing the heavy lifting to fix the marriage. While they recognize your hurt, they don't acknowledge your wifes role in repairing the marriage. On the other hand, you have posters telling you that your wife has checked out of the marriage, is probably in an affair, and you should be doing a hard 180 to start the process of moving on with your life. Both sides in this arguement are drawing on the personal life experiences which may or may not be applicable to your present situation.
> 
> The simple truth is that no one knows the outcome to your current problem. At this point it doesn't sound like you wife knows what she wants. The only things you can go by are what she has told you and demonstrated, which are that she hasn't loved you for several years (and has backed that up through her lack of intimacy), that she is not sure she wants to stay married with you, but that she is willing to pursue marriage counseling. The only semi-encouraging of those items is the marriage counseling.
> 
> You've acknowledged that you haven't been perfect in your marriage and that you could have done more to meet her needs. I do think that if she had clearly told you what the problems were, that you would have made the efforts to preserve and strengthen the marriage. But she has done a lot to cripple this marriage by not clearing communicating with you, by deceiving you into thinking things were better than they were, and by not caring enough to try to work on the problems.
> 
> She has clearly fractured your trust in her. So if you make the decision to pursue marriage counseling, you need to make it clear that you are also evaluating whether you want to remain married to her and you should go in with some clear expectations in mind for the counseling such as:
> 
> 
> She is exhibiting many behaviors that are common to women having an affair. So she needs to know that you need to take steps that will give you reasonable comfort that there isn't another man in the picture. This may involve access to her phone, computer, etc.
> She needs to define clearly what her problems are in the relationship and, with the help of the MC, give you steps to help you address these problems.
> She needs to take steps towards developing intimacy with you. The only honest communication that she has had with you over the past several years is the lack of intimacy. She has demonstrated exactly how she felt by withholding intimacy. So her reestablishing intimacy is really the only way that you can trust that she does love you.
> She needs to work on her communication skills to start addressing problems with you before they become major issues.
> 
> 
> I also think you need to put some timeframes around these goals. Perhaps you will need to tell her you that you will be reevaluating the progress over after 3-4 months to determine whether you should continue couseling or being pursuing divorce.
> 
> Hopefully, my suggestions can help you reconcile the two different camps of advice that you've been getting. You should be willing to pursue MC but only if she is committed to it as well. And if she is not making a good faith effort, then she needs to know that you will pull the plug and move on with your life.


Anon we all want you to be a success. Before doing whatever you do make sure she is not in an ea or pa first. I hope neither, God bless.


----------



## Tony55

Anon, hold a firm line, you're doing good, stay strong and confident. Work for reconciliation if she shows signs of snapping out of what's afflicted her these past 5 years, but don't hold your breath.

When she's done trampling your soul, provided you put your best face on and hold the moral high ground, you'll still have your dignity and self respect, and pride (nothing wrong with pride). 

"I don't love you, I haven't for five years". Those are strong words, they didn't come out of nowhere, she meant them, and now she needs to own them. She needs to get out or tell you she believes she can love you again.

If you see the counselor again, demand that your wife come clean about the affair.

T


----------



## Entropy3000

Bearded Lion said:


> My wife never cheated on me, and I doubt Anonymously's has either. We're talking about a woman who no longer feels connected and in love to the man she was connected and in love with.
> 
> And if you've never had that problem, then you don't know how to solve it and NO he shouldn't listen to you in this instance.


He really should because telling someone to sacrifice ther dignity is malevolent. Compassion yes. Losing ones dignity ... no. Bad advice. His wife needs him to keep his dignity.

So if you truly want to help someone try encouraging them to be compassionate and not telling them to sacrifice their dignity. That is absurd but the reason I am calling you out is that it is harmful and counterproductive. 

You might try to rephrase your advice in a more postive light and not dump all the baggage onto someone who had the sense to ask for help.

But you have a right to your opinion but I am also going to entreat the OP to be a strong husband, not allow blameshifting and to engage in his marriage in positive ways. He needs to definitively rule out an affair and then engage the marriage. But indeed if she has decided she is down for any reason he needs to prepare himself to move on with dignity. If he does she may just come to her senses. 

I am all for meeting each other needs. But noone wants a doormat. He must rule out the affair first. Why? Because it is the most urgent thing. Affairs can be engaged and headed off before they become terminal to the marriage. In paralell he can take other actions but they are more slow in bearing fruit. They also are counter productive if she is in an affair.

Too many men are quick to put the blame on themselves and that does not help. I also only have one login.


----------



## Bearded Lion

I'm not telling anyone to give up their dignity. He'll have more dignity when he's created a thriving marriage and family, not less.

I don't think he's worried that she's had an affair. Other people started throwing that in.


----------



## Blonde

anonymously said:


> .* I am done with this crap. It's over and so is her abuse. *
> 
> *The End of the road for her is now*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This does not sound "dignified" to me.

TBH, that sounds menacing. 

I wonder if the counselor picked up on this and wants the wife to feel safe?

Maybe the preachers of Alpha need to clarify "dignity"? Are alphas bullies?


----------



## tom67

Bearded Lion said:


> I'm not telling anyone to give up their dignity. He'll have more dignity when he's created a thriving marriage and family, not less.
> 
> I don't think he's worried that she's had an affair. Other people started throwing that in.


You have to rule out an affair before you can even proceed that is the key he does not know.


----------



## tom67

henrymakow.com - Exposing Feminism and The New World Order I'm sure this will be a talking point


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## Entropy3000

Bearded Lion said:


> I'm not telling anyone to give up their dignity. He'll have more dignity when he's created a thriving marriage and family, not less.
> 
> I don't think he's worried that she's had an affair. Other people started throwing that in.


You offered a fallacy intentionally or not :



> What do you want your future to look like? Broken family, sitting alone with your "dignity" or success, love, happiness, and raising your legacy?


What you are missing is that most folks are wanting him to rule out the affair as it would be the most urgent thing to address. 

In paralell he can try to make sense of her feelings. But he cannot make her love him. He does not have to sacrifice his dignity to be a leader in his marriage and try to reach her.

But I am not going to dance with this. You go ahead and advise him as you please. It is an open forum. As will I as well.


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## Entropy3000

Many men end up paying for a counselor who is not a friend to the marriage. They feel that their goal is to help the woman leave the marriage. No thank you. Now if there is abuse that is one thing. But do not take money from me and not be a friend to the marriage. I would have bolted as well in that case.

If I am paying a counselor to help us make the marriage work then that should be the focus. Just my opinion. But the person who is paying for the counseling has every right not to be undermined by it. Again if there is abuse involved then that should be dealt with. 

Some folks find assertive men menacing ... and that is ok. It does not make the man the problem. He needs to take action to protect his marriage. It may be beyond his power to do so. His wife may be done. Yes he should leave no stone unturned.

A marriage takes two. Indeed most often one person or the other is doing 80% of the work at any given time. That said, what the OP describes sounds more like history re-writing. It may not be ...

WAW syndrome is often accompanied by a wife complaining to her husband there is a problem. At some point she gives up and stops complaining. Maybe this is her. The husband makes the mistake in thinking everything is fine when it is not. Perhaps this is the case here. He needs to pursue the possible affair and this possibility.

Then again sometimes women get bored and want something else in their life. Sometimes someone else.


----------



## tom67

Entropy3000 said:


> You offered a fallacy intentionally or not :
> 
> 
> 
> What you are missing is that most folks are wanting him to rule out the affair as it would be the most urgent thing to address.
> 
> In paralell he can try to make sense of her feelings. But he cannot make her love him. He does not have to sacrifice his dignity to be a leader in his marriage and try to reach her.
> 
> But I am not going to dance with this. You go ahead and advise him as you please. It is an open forum. As will I as well.


Entropy and others and I agree you can't nice someone out of an affair. This for the most part has been proven. Maybe Deejo or another moderator could chime in and give their opinions.


----------



## Entropy3000

tom67 said:


> Entropy and others and I agree you can't nice someone out of an affair. This for the most part has been proven. Maybe Deejo or another moderator could chime in and give their opinions.


Actually you are indeed correct. Others need to chime in as well.


----------



## Entropy3000

Blonde said:


> Ya Bearded! Please stick around!
> 
> I'm new myself and already sick of 180 "get new clothes, workout at the gym, and go out to bars and flirt with OW" being suggested to men who are already away from home most of the time and neglecting their wives and marriages...
> 
> Marriage advice shouldn't be exported if it FAILED! Just sayin'


OP. Not sure if the 180 is the right thing to do here ... yet. That is when you are done and ready to move on. If you are done then indeed do the 180 but also contact a lawyer. The 180 is not a tactic to stay in the marriage.

Yes, workout at the GYM. This is good for both your mental and physical health. The endorphins can help you make it through. In addition lifting heavy weights especially with heavy Squats and Deadlifts will increase your T levels and help with your confidnece. Yes is makes you more fit whcih looks good but helps you handle the stress.

No I am not one to tell you to go out to bars and flirt with women. That said you may want to engage with some male friends but go easy on the booze. Drinking too much will only make things worse. Some men are so beaten down suggesting they notice oher women is not all bad but that is a slippery slope and I suggest you focus on your marriage right now. If it goes south there will be plenty of time for other women, quality women down the road AFTER the divorce. Hopefully you can avoid that.

There is no husband or wife who is perfect so in these times a spouse will just say I was not the best spouse. I worked too many hours or did not meets needs and so on. Welcome to marriage. I do suggest couples do His Needs Her Needs. In fact my wife and I give it as a wedding gift. Too often folks flat do not know what their spouses needs really are. Needs also change / evolve.

So we have that straight now.


----------



## Bearded Lion

Again, I don't believe Anonymously is worried about his wife having an affair. If that was a major concern than trying to find out for sure would be fine, though hiring a detective is bad advice.


Entropy3000 - Has your wife ever grown cold toward you and wanted a divorce?


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## wilderness

The first question I would be asking is: how do you plan on compensating me for the last 5 years of my life? The years that were stolen via deception. 
This is her fault. She needs to own the impact of her poor decisions on her marriage and on her husband and on the children.


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## Fledgling

I agree with Entropy that no spouse is perfect. Ever. I do agree that that is a part of marriage. I also agree that we are all offering advice based on personal experience. Some will put the onus on the man and some will put the onus on the woman.

Anon, your wife does bear some responsibility in this. No question. The problem is that she is the one who wants the divorce right now. And you've decided that you don't. So the situation is thus. You've decided to stay and you want her to stay. Since you have made that choice you can not act in a manner that is sure to drive her away. You've already said that you have found no evidence of an affair. If you go beyond what you've done to eliminate the possibilty of an affair (monitering her or hiring a PI) she will rightly think you're just out to bag her in an affair to make yourself feel better and to make her evil. She will NOT thank you for it and you will lose what little progress you have made. She can not do her part to make the marriage work until she is ready to admit the marriage is worth saving. And she is not at that point yet.

You never did anything wrong, Anon. This is important. You both made decisions together that led to this. You both became complacent. You both neglected one another and didn't even realize either of you were doing so. But right now, unfortunately, you are going to have to do the heavy lifting. 

Maybe, just maybe, you are "too perfect"? Didn't you say that your wife said that you would make a great catch for anybody. (Except apparently for her right?) That reeks to me that she doesn't feel worthy of you. You have to show her that you are human. Not weak. Human.

One other thing. Alot of people, including myself, are focusing on this five year thing. Isn't it likely that your wife is retroactively labeling what she is feeling? Something is making her come forward with this now. Why not last year or five years ago. It is my guess that if she had been so sure of her feelings five years ago she wouldn't have tried to tough it out for so long just to spare your feelings. (And by the way she obviously loves you enough to worry about your feelings.) It is far more likely that she was slowly losing her equilibrium. Now that she thinks she doesn't love you it is logical that she would apply that to the last five years to explain it all away. But that doesn't make it true.

As to the "just nicing" someone into loving you again. That is hardly what anyone is suggesting. You are nice because you love her. You don't stop being nice to try to scare someone into reality. Secondly you aren't JUST doing anything. Yes, be nice to her, but also work on your own faults and foibles. Again something we should all be doing in a healthy marriage anyway. Thirdly, it's not nice if you don't mean it. It's only patronizing.


----------



## Fledgling

Entropy3000 said:


> Actually you are indeed correct. Others need to chime in as well.


All due respect to the mods but are their opinions more valid than anyone else's opinion? That kind of makes me think of kids who call mom in to end an argument because they are sure mom will agree with them. Opinions are opinions no matter who they come from.


----------



## F-102

You let her pick the counselor? BIG MISTAKE!

MC should be mutually agreed upon. Your W found one that is a man-hating divorce coach in disguise.


----------



## Fledgling

Right. She deliberately went out and interviewed all these therapists so she could could find just the one who would tell her what she wants to hear? That's absurd.

The worst that could have happened is that she confided in someone who refered to this therapist. But I seriously doubt that she was rubbing her hands with glee to try to make him feel worse about himself. Look if she wanted to "buy time" she wouldn't have put any of this in motion by telling him about her feelings. She would have continued to "fake it" until she was absolutely sure she had a way out. Then she would be gone. No need for a counselor at all..oy.


----------



## anchorwatch

Here we go again, more argumentative thread jacking taking over the OPs thread.


----------



## Blonde

Entropy3000 said:


> Some folks find assertive men menacing ... and that is ok. It does not make the man the problem. He needs to take action to *protect his marriage.*


"Action" up to and including what? Is the marriage "protected" if the wife is dead?

I'm sorry but this does not sound "assertive" to me. 

It sounds aggressive and hostile.



> Originally Posted by anonymously
> . I am done with this crap. It's over and so is her abuse.
> 
> The End of the road for her is now


"The end of the road for her is now"?

Really? 

If he says things like that in front of a professional, the professional will be helping his wife develop a safety plan.


----------



## Fledgling

Some further thoughts on the whole MC thing. You made the first step in going to counseling. Thus far you have had one session. You asked her a legit question on her methods. And she gave an answer that you percieved as a run around. I bet this counseler has a lot of people questioning her credentials. Not because she is bad but because she deals with couples who come to her not wanting to be there and wanting to find an excuse to quit. But the fact is you came to her for help. Is one session enough to know if she is a good therapist? She is just getting to know you and it would be a bad start to put the person who is supposed to help you on the defensive right away.

Also be mindful of your true reasons for going to therapy. Are you going just to say you tried everything in a divorce? Or are you going to truly work on you marriage. Look as the MC as a tool to be used, not as band-aid or miracle cure. If after a few session you are still convinced that this counselor isn't pro-marriage, by all means find another one. But don't give up!


----------



## Tony55

I took the responsibility of taking on more of her work after we had a baby. In fact I did 100% of her job and mine for several years so she can stay home.
It's becoming increasingly hostile and now more aggressive and unpredictable with regard to how she will behave next. She of course doesn't see that.
In my mind I am certain there is a 3rd baseman. I just dont know who it is or what they are saying, and I may never know and that's just the reality of it.
But where is the empathy for how you might be making the other person feel or how it effects them? Where is the mutual respect?
After hours and hours of what seems like the first honest conversation she has had with me in a very long time. She told me she feels empy emotionally and doesnt feel any love for me. She said this has been going on for what amounts to over 5 years
She at one point told that she did love me but that she was not in love with me in any way
She has completely closed herself off from any physical contact with not just sexually speaking but completely.
More or less most of the times we were having sex over the past 5 years she said she wasnt into it and was only faking it
I feel worse then I did before having come to realization that she doesnt really care about me personally at all.
She cares so little for me that went as far as suggesting that she is ok with me going outside of the marriage to get my needs fulfilled
If there were a single shred of indication that she still had feelings for me I would walk through crushed glass. But not only is there not, there also is no empathy what so ever. None, not a shred of any basic human kindness toward me.
But I am being walked on and abused and it isn't coming from a place of wanting salvation with me.
When she sees I won't allow her to hurt me anymore in one way she finds another way.


If this was a woman describing her life with her husband, everything from her doing 100% of her work and his, to then being treated as described above..., think about it, think clearly, WHO would tell this woman that *she doesn't understand her husband*???

We would all tell a woman in this exact same scenario to dump this loser, I certainly would, I would tell her he's cheating, he has no respect for you and he's taking advantage of you.

*Is there one person here who would tell a woman that she isn't listening to his needs?*

Seriously.

T


----------



## Entropy3000

Fledgling said:


> All due respect to the mods but are their opinions more valid than anyone else's opinion? That kind of makes me think of kids who call mom in to end an argument because they are sure mom will agree with them. Opinions are opinions no matter who they come from.


No my comment was not about the mods at all. I was replying to someone who said the mods. I am just asking for others with experience to add to this thread. Just looking for other opinions here as I think they can add to what has been covered by us.

I think the OPs situation demands a deeper look. That is all my comment was a about.


----------



## RClawson

With all due respect to Bearded, fledgling, Blondie and Mrs. Whateveryournameis your opinions are just as welcome as anyone else's of course but facts are facts.

The fact is that the OP's story follows a pattern that is repeated over and over and over again on this forum. When most people arrive here the advice they get seems counterintuitive to everything we believe will work. No one is saying the OP should be a jerk but they are encouraging him to have his eyes wide open, to prepare himself for the worst and to make sure he is doing everything he can do emotionally, physically and legally to protect himself should things go sideways.

I can speak to this from a personal standpoint. I initially thought the advice here was coming from a place of anger and revenge but once I implemented it I saw it as coming from a place of protection and ultimately as the solution that saved my marriage. Trust me when I say the overwhelming majority of people here would agree.


----------



## Entropy3000

Fledgling said:


> Right. She deliberately went out and interviewed all these therapists so she could could find just the one who would tell her what she wants to hear? That's absurd.
> 
> The worst that could have happened is that she confided in someone who refered to this therapist. But I seriously doubt that she was rubbing her hands with glee to try to make him feel worse about himself. Look if she wanted to "buy time" she wouldn't have put any of this in motion by telling him about her feelings. She would have continued to "fake it" until she was absolutely sure she had a way out. Then she would be gone. No need for a counselor at all..oy.


People will naturally look for a sympathetic counselor. Counselors are a huge crap shoot and run the gamut as to how marriage friendly they are. They have all sorts of agendas just like anyone else.

He needs one that can deal with both the WAW syndrome but also one familiar with infidelity. He needs to know their philosophy about dealing with these things upfront.


----------



## Emerald

OP - 

I think you need to let her go.

Sadly, I believe her that she is not in love with you anymore & wants to move on. I think she wants you to move out even if she doesn't say it.

She thinks by telling you she doesn't love you will make you move out & on.

She is "breaking up with you" if you were not married.

She may or may not have an OM. At this point in your particular situation, it doesn't matter much. She doesn't love YOU.

My husband's first wife fell out of love with him. It happens. She stayed with him out of convenience until she met an OM & he stayed until he could sort out new living arrangemets. He didn't:

Do the 180, go to counseling, beg or plead, get his alpha on, read a bunch of books.

He is a man of integrity who KNEW his wife had fell out of love with him. He could feel it.

In other words, he ACCEPTED that people change & can fall out of love.

His heart was broke. They had 2 children. She NEVER fell back in love with my husband. She never asked to come back. She truly moved on.

Eventually his broken heart healed with time & meeting me 

Your situation is unique. You are getting lots of good advice.

I just wanted to share my story. Good luck.


----------



## Entropy3000

Blonde said:


> "Action" up to and including what? Is the marriage "protected" if the wife is dead?
> 
> I'm sorry but this does not sound "assertive" to me.
> 
> It sounds aggressive and hostile.
> 
> 
> 
> "The end of the road for her is now"?
> 
> Really?
> 
> If he says things like that in front of a professional, the professional will be helping his wife develop a safety plan.


Sorry Blonde this is over the top to me. 

I am moving forward here. There is no indication of any abuse. I get that you pick up that vibe. 

I see the OP as getting fed up with her. Which is very understandable. Sorry if you see this as a threat to her safety. When you love someone very much and they put you through this it is a real gut wrencher.

Moving on.


----------



## Entropy3000

Tony55 said:


> I took the responsibility of taking on more of her work after we had a baby. In fact I did 100% of her job and mine for several years so she can stay home.
> It's becoming increasingly hostile and now more aggressive and unpredictable with regard to how she will behave next. She of course doesn't see that.
> In my mind I am certain there is a 3rd baseman. I just dont know who it is or what they are saying, and I may never know and that's just the reality of it.
> But where is the empathy for how you might be making the other person feel or how it effects them? Where is the mutual respect?
> After hours and hours of what seems like the first honest conversation she has had with me in a very long time. She told me she feels empy emotionally and doesnt feel any love for me. She said this has been going on for what amounts to over 5 years
> She at one point told that she did love me but that she was not in love with me in any way
> She has completely closed herself off from any physical contact with not just sexually speaking but completely.
> More or less most of the times we were having sex over the past 5 years she said she wasnt into it and was only faking it
> I feel worse then I did before having come to realization that she doesnt really care about me personally at all.
> She cares so little for me that went as far as suggesting that she is ok with me going outside of the marriage to get my needs fulfilled
> If there were a single shred of indication that she still had feelings for me I would walk through crushed glass. But not only is there not, there also is no empathy what so ever. None, not a shred of any basic human kindness toward me.
> But I am being walked on and abused and it isn't coming from a place of wanting salvation with me.
> When she sees I won't allow her to hurt me anymore in one way she finds another way.
> 
> 
> If this was a woman describing her life with her husband, everything from her doing 100% of her work and his, to then being treated as described above..., think about it, think clearly, WHO would tell this woman that *she doesn't understand her husband*???
> 
> We would all tell a woman in this exact same scenario to dump this loser, I certainly would, I would tell her he's cheating, he has no respect for you and he's taking advantage of you.
> 
> *Is there one person here who would tell a woman that she isn't listening to his needs?*
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> T


Thanks Tony for the summary. This helps a bunch. All of these things jump out but the one about her being ok with him going outside the marriage hits hard. I know how I would feel about that one.

I think he should be commended for trying to save his marriage at all.


----------



## alte Dame

OP hasn't been back for a while & if he doesn't come back, it will be at least the second thread in as many days in which the same cadre of posters has driven the discussion in such an unproductive direction that it wasn't worth it for the OP to stay.

I don't have any particular axe to grind - I'm not a so-called 'bitter' BS. What I am is someone who recognizes the patterns in human behavior once I've taken the time to pay close attention, to look at lots of examples of said behavior, and to only make generalizations after I've done that. Jumping in without doing any of that homework and remaining dogged and intent on advice and opinions that are reflexive but not based in general experience not only doesn't help the OP, it can hurt him


----------



## VFW

Make sure you see an attorney to protest yourself legally, get your finances separate and custody/visitation and let her go. You deserve to be with some one that wants you. The open relationship was not her being benevolent, it was her wanting to eat her cake and have it too. Your focus needs to be on your child and yourself, time for her to fend for herself.


----------



## anonymously

btdt said:


> You seem to be getting two very different types of advice from the posters, and you seem to be trying to implement both approaches simultaneously. I don't believe this is going to work.
> 
> On the one hand people are telling you that the problems are primarily due to your lack of attention to the marriage, and they seem to be implying that you need to be doing the heavy lifting to fix the marriage. While they recognize your hurt, they don't acknowledge your wifes role in repairing the marriage. On the other hand, you have posters telling you that your wife has checked out of the marriage, is probably in an affair, and you should be doing a hard 180 to start the process of moving on with your life. Both sides in this arguement are drawing on the personal life experiences which may or may not be applicable to your present situation.
> 
> The simple truth is that no one knows the outcome to your current problem. At this point it doesn't sound like you wife knows what she wants. The only things you can go by are what she has told you and demonstrated, which are that she hasn't loved you for several years (and has backed that up through her lack of intimacy), that she is not sure she wants to stay married with you, but that she is willing to pursue marriage counseling. The only semi-encouraging of those items is the marriage counseling.
> 
> You've acknowledged that you haven't been perfect in your marriage and that you could have done more to meet her needs. I do think that if she had clearly told you what the problems were, that you would have made the efforts to preserve and strengthen the marriage. But she has done a lot to cripple this marriage by not clearing communicating with you, by deceiving you into thinking things were better than they were, and by not caring enough to try to work on the problems.
> 
> She has clearly fractured your trust in her. So if you make the decision to pursue marriage counseling, you need to make it clear that you are also evaluating whether you want to remain married to her and you should go in with some clear expectations in mind for the counseling such as:
> 
> 
> She is exhibiting many behaviors that are common to women having an affair. So she needs to know that you need to take steps that will give you reasonable comfort that there isn't another man in the picture. This may involve access to her phone, computer, etc.
> She needs to define clearly what her problems are in the relationship and, with the help of the MC, give you steps to help you address these problems.
> She needs to take steps towards developing intimacy with you. The only honest communication that she has had with you over the past several years is the lack of intimacy. She has demonstrated exactly how she felt by withholding intimacy. So her reestablishing intimacy is really the only way that you can trust that she does love you.
> She needs to work on her communication skills to start addressing problems with you before they become major issues.
> 
> 
> I also think you need to put some timeframes around these goals. Perhaps you will need to tell her you that you will be reevaluating the progress over after 3-4 months to determine whether you should continue couseling or being pursuing divorce.
> 
> Hopefully, my suggestions can help you reconcile the two different camps of advice that you've been getting. You should be willing to pursue MC but only if she is committed to it as well. And if she is not making a good faith effort, then she needs to know that you will pull the plug and move on with your life.


This was actually very helpful and did finally get her to open up a bit more today which gives me the first sign of any hope. THANK YOU!


----------



## anonymously

Fledgling said:


> Right. She deliberately went out and interviewed all these therapists so she could could find just the one who would tell her what she wants to hear? That's absurd.
> 
> The worst that could have happened is that she confided in someone who refered to this therapist. But I seriously doubt that she was rubbing her hands with glee to try to make him feel worse about himself. Look if she wanted to "buy time" she wouldn't have put any of this in motion by telling him about her feelings. She would have continued to "fake it" until she was absolutely sure she had a way out. Then she would be gone. No need for a counselor at all..oy.


I agree. I dont believe she went out of her way to find this incompetent B*tch at all. I believe she went blindly through local and somewhat limitted listings and this is who she ended up with. 

I do know one thing is for certain, that woman that we saw is going absolutely end and destroy many relationships and marriages that otherwise probably would have stood a reasonable chance of success.


----------



## anonymously

Blonde said:


> "Action" up to and including what? Is the marriage "protected" if the wife is dead?
> 
> I'm sorry but this does not sound "assertive" to me.
> 
> It sounds aggressive and hostile.
> 
> 
> 
> "The end of the road for her is now"?
> 
> Really?
> 
> If he says things like that in front of a professional, the professional will be helping his wife develop a safety plan.



I appreciate any input from anyone here. But seriously are kidding with this? Pleas dont put your own issues on me. I have enough of my own to deal with. That was neither constructive nor helpful. I dont mean to be rude, just saying you are way off base here.


----------



## Blonde

I didn't mean to be rude either. 

Hopefully your communication IRL is not quite so harsh.

The therapist should have a lobotomy because s/he wants to give you homework? the end of the road for your wife is now? and you are the victim of your wife's "abuse"?

I realize you are frustrated but CHILL! 

Saying them here is one thing but if you say them IRL, it's hard to undo...


----------



## anonymously

VFW said:


> Make sure you see an attorney to protest yourself legally, get your finances separate and custody/visitation and let her go. You deserve to be with some one that wants you. The open relationship was not her being benevolent, it was her wanting to eat her cake and have it too. Your focus needs to be on your child and yourself, time for her to fend for herself.



I have no worries about any legal issues, that I have covered from all 4 corners. Besides which, regardless of what happens she is still the mother of my child and I will be stuck with this fact forever so doing something to harm her also harms my child. Assuming she keeps reasonable I have already agreed to go beyond what would be the legal requirements based statutes. It's a none issue, she has an exit if she wants it. I dont want fear to be the reason to stay and the only way to know its not is to take that fear off the table completely which I have now done.


----------



## anonymously

Blonde said:


> I didn't mean to be rude either.
> 
> Hopefully your communication IRL is not quite so harsh.
> 
> The therapist should have a lobotomy because s/he wants to give you homework? the end of the road for your wife is now? and you are the victim of your wife's "abuse"?
> 
> I realize you are frustrated but CHILL!
> 
> Saying them here is one thing but if you say them IRL, it's hard to undo...


Seriously I have no idea what IRL is. With all do respect the therapist was horrible and not competant in any manner. There is no question getting away from her as fast as possible was the right thing to do. If built widgets for a living and someone asked me the process of how I build them, I would not say that I do that buy handing out assignments. I did not ask what will you have us do as part of this therapy. I asked very specifically what methodologies do you employ and subscribe to? What techniques from those will you be utilizing for us. She was a hack plain and simple and will definately be deteremental to many people who see her and are not able to spot that she is awful at her job.


----------



## Tony55

Blonde said:


> I didn't mean to be rude either.
> 
> Hopefully your communication IRL is not quite so harsh.
> 
> The therapist should have a lobotomy because s/he wants to give you homework? the end of the road for your wife is now? and you are the victim of your wife's "abuse"?
> 
> I realize you are frustrated but CHILL!
> 
> Saying them here is one thing but if you say them IRL, it's hard to undo...


If a woman said...

It's becoming increasingly hostile and now more aggressive and unpredictable with regard to how *he* will behave next. *He* of course doesn't see that.
More or less most of the times we were having sex over the past 5 years *he* said *he* wasnt into it and was only faking it.
*He* cares so little for me that went as far as suggesting that *he* is ok with me going outside of the marriage to get my needs fulfilled.
There also is no empathy what so ever. None, not a shred of any basic human kindness toward me.
But I am being walked on and abused and it isn't coming from a place of wanting salvation with me.
When *he* sees I won't allow *him* to hurt me anymore in one way *he* finds another way.
... then many would say she's being abused, or that he's abusive.

T


----------



## Sigma Uber Alles

Bearded Lion said:


> My wife never cheated on me, and I doubt Anonymously's has either. We're talking about a woman who no longer feels connected and in love to the man she was connected and in love with.
> 
> And if you've never had that problem, then you don't know how to solve it and NO he shouldn't listen to you in this instance.


I repeat, *there is a third party tresspasser involved in the OP's situation*. I can smell him from where I am typing...:FIREdevil:

Until he is revealed and dealt with, the OP's wife will be interested in only one thing... more space and distance "to think".

She is in "the fog" full blown.

Since I had the sad misfortune of having to experience this side of human behavior as well, I learned several things... 
1) people are human, they are what they are.
2) nothing is new under the sun, and
3) these situations are as predictable as if they were scripted.


----------



## ComicBookLady

RClawson said:


> With all due respect to Bearded, fledgling, Blondie and Mrs. Whateveryournameis your opinions are just as welcome as anyone else's of course but facts are facts.
> 
> The fact is that the OP's story follows a pattern that is repeated over and over and over again on this forum. When most people arrive here the advice they get seems counterintuitive to everything we believe will work. No one is saying the OP should be a jerk but they are encouraging him to have his eyes wide open, to prepare himself for the worst and to make sure he is doing everything he can do emotionally, physically and legally to protect himself should things go sideways.
> 
> I can speak to this from a personal standpoint. I initially thought the advice here was coming from a place of anger and revenge but once I implemented it I saw it as coming from a place of protection and ultimately as the solution that saved my marriage. Trust me when I say the overwhelming majority of people here would agree.


That's totally fine, and I am happy that the solution you found worked for you!  

I've seen the same pattern here too. And I WAS the distant almost divorcee. If my husband would have come on here for advice he would have been heard "She's a cheater" " Pull a 180" " Kick her out". If he followed any of that advice our marriage would have ended. Instead we found a solution that made us BOTH happy (and VERY close to what Bearded Lion is suggesting).

In this forum there's a lot of "be more dominant" and "prepare for the worst" type of advices (all fine to give, everyone has valid views) but very little of the type of solution that includes 1) listening to your partner and 2) changing together for a better marriage, which is a proven method for helping many many marriages in situations like this. 

And as the advice worked for your situation, I've also followed threads here where those same dominant practices drove the wife over the final bump to divorce, whereas before it might have been saved by other methods. So I feel it's important to put all options out there for people to decide from themselves to see what best fits their situation.

Anonymous, I hope you are feeling better today!  Good thoughts are with you!


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Fledgling said:


> Some further thoughts on the whole MC thing. You made the first step in going to counseling. Thus far you have had one session. You asked her a legit question on her methods. And she gave an answer that you percieved as a run around. I bet this counseler has a lot of people questioning her credentials. Not because she is bad but because she deals with couples who come to her not wanting to be there and wanting to find an excuse to quit. But the fact is you came to her for help. Is one session enough to know if she is a good therapist? She is just getting to know you and it would be a bad start to put the person who is supposed to help you on the defensive right away.
> 
> Also be mindful of your true reasons for going to therapy. Are you going just to say you tried everything in a divorce? Or are you going to truly work on you marriage. Look as the MC as a tool to be used, not as band-aid or miracle cure. If after a few session you are still convinced that this counselor isn't pro-marriage, by all means find another one. But don't give up!


That is not the issue. The issue with the therapist is the following:



> She says your wife called me first for herself so she is my client not you.


Her job is not to work through their marriage to see if they can resolve their problems - her job is to counsel the wife. The OP is merely a tool to do that. 

That is not MC, it is IC. To call it otherwise is silly.


----------



## Sigma Uber Alles

Bearded Lion said:


> I'm not telling anyone to give up their dignity. He'll have more dignity when he's created a thriving marriage and family, not less.
> 
> I don't think he's worried that she's had an affair. Other people started throwing that in.


He better be worried that she is involved in either an EA or a PA...

Considering his wife's behavior (as he has described in this thread), I would have to say that... 

if the interloper was a bus,

then the OP is a dead man in the road with tire marks across his back.

Look at the facts:

ILYBINILWY speech ? *check*

I never loved or haven't for 5 years (rewriting history) ? *check*

I wan't space to think ? *check*

Emotionless detachment and distancing with no empathy. *check*

Sorry, but if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.... *it is a duck !*


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Tall average guy is correct about the IC/MC issue. If it was true marriage therapy, the marriage would be client, not them individually.

And stop with the OM stuff. I went through the same exact stuff that this guy is going through. SAME STUFF. 1.8 years of it. I changed, did everything you could possibly do. 

SHE DOESN'T LOVE HERSELF, SO HOW CAN SHE LOVE YOU!!!!?????

She can't love anyone until she gets that part rectified.


----------



## ComicBookLady

Sigma Uber Alles said:


> He better be worried that she is involved in either an EA or a PA...
> 
> Considering his wife's behavior (as he has described in this thread), I would have to say that...
> 
> if the interloper was a bus,
> 
> then the OP is a dead man in the road with tire marks across his back.
> 
> Look at the facts:
> 
> ILYBINILWY speech ? *check*
> 
> I never loved or haven't for 5 years (rewriting history) ? *check*
> 
> I wan't space to think ? *check*
> 
> Emotionless detachment and distancing with no empathy. *check*
> 
> Sorry, but if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.... *it is a duck !*


Very valid post, but please consider that _I was that exact woman_ once and I was absolutey NOT cheating. Should he check for an affair? Sure if he wants, but the culprit is not ALWAYS an affair, but I understand why you would come to that conclusion.


----------



## Sigma Uber Alles

wilderness said:


> The first question I would be asking is: how do you plan on compensating me for the last 5 years of my life? The years that were stolen via deception.
> This is her fault. She needs to own the impact of her poor decisions on her marriage and on her husband and on the children.


And that is the byproduct of her "rewriting history" due to what Machiavelli termed in another thread the effects of "Essence of Strange"... I agree with Mach.


----------



## Tony55

Mrs. NotSureWhatToDo said:


> Very valid post, but please consider that _I was that exact woman_ once and I was absolutey NOT cheating. Should he check for an affair? Sure if he wants, but the culprit is not ALWAYS an affair, but I understand why you would come to that conclusion.


You were not that EXACT woman, your first post on this forum started with...
_"I am married almost 3 years now. I love my husband very much, but when we argue he becomes an absolute different person, and over the years (been with him almost 7 years now total) I have been slowly losing my resolve to keep trying to get through to him just how hurtful his behavior is."_​I doubt any of us would have accused you of cheating based on that post.

T


----------



## anonymously

First I want to thank everyone for insights and advice and opinions. Wheather or not I took them all or have used or listened to all they have all been helpful in one way or another. I am glad I found this place! So far here is where we now are...


I have found a new councelor, one who is local and have researched his methodolgies, background etc. It also happens to be one who believes that 70% of marriages can be saved. That may be hopeful but at least he is pro marriage. 

I have told my wife that I think she needs to also research him and interview him to make sure that she is comfortable as well. Also asked if she would be more comfortable with a female over a male. It doesnt matter to me, but it may have mattered to her. Incidentally it did not matter to her as well.


We have also figured out that neither of can do anything about our current state for any future state if we never established what it is that each of us wants from counseling. Nor did we establish what we want from a happy healthy marriage assuming that we actually want a marriage at all. She may not, I may not. I dont believe either one of us can answer any long term questions right now. 

We are both going to be thinking about what we want out of all of this and what we want out of our marriage. We also both need to consider and agree that this is something that we want to save. If the answer is yes, I will have some conditions and expectations which I have laid out but am still considering and reviewing so its not in stone. She is in the process of doing the same. I think she is a bit more confused that I am so it may take her longer but I am ok with that. 

What the main break through is, is that neither one of us has a clue as to what makes us happy anymore with respect to eachother. I have no idea what her expectations from our relationship are anymore. Partly my fault for not stopping my daily routine to think about her happiness and needs, mainly hers for not expressing them to me sooner in a direct manner. She has complained about issues during the years that were external influences like i'm stressed out from work, or tired from taking care of the child and working etc..But never really came to me and said its you and its what you are doing and I need you to do this...

The same exact applies to her as well. She has no idea what I expect from her, as I have never told her either. We have seemingly gotten more caught up into keeping our lives going than actually paying to our to our lives themselves.

We both have acknowledged that if we are to stay and make it work we will both need to establish some guidelines as to what each of us wants out this marriage. I am ready to do the hard work that is necassary. I sense that she is too and she is more receptive. I think there is a tremendous amount of resentment, there are also some underlying issues from old skeletons from her past which also effect her in terms of being more guarded than is healthy. Also something I had no idea has still been effecting her. 

At the very least, I am at least now seeing and getting some positive movement toward moving forward together. This is that little light at the end of the tunnel or little sign of hope that I was looking for from her. 

I dont know if these means it will work out, or if it will go completely the wrong way still. That is something that is goin to take a huge amount of work to discover. But at least all is not hopeless at the moment. That can change any moment, but right now I'm just going to focus on moving us in the right direction and trying to build on that from here. 

Oh and BTW, as far as an EA or PA, I really dont believe that is the problem here at all at this point. I believe that I can safely rule that out. So unless something comes up that points to otherwise I am going to let that issue go for now. 

Not sure where we end up from here, but its certainly going to be an interesting ride....to say the least. Will keep everyone posted on how this next MC turns out to be.


----------



## Sigma Uber Alles

Mrs. NotSureWhatToDo said:


> Very valid post, but please consider that _I was that exact woman_ once and I was absolutey NOT cheating. Should he check for an affair? Sure if he wants, but the culprit is not ALWAYS an affair, but I understand why you would come to that conclusion.


and what you suggest, that this is only a case of MLC or mere dissatisfaction with the marriage is entirely possible, but the odds of that are not in his favor and in any case, if an OM is in the picture, whether EA or PA... no amount of Mr. Nice Guy will do anything but make things worse by lessening his wife's interest in him.

As for all the Anti-Alpha postings on this thread... Entropy has well stated that there is nothing... and I mean absolutely nothing in *legitimate* dominant male behavior that seeks to demean, devalue, or abuse women. It is not about abuse or control. It is about a biologically dictated fact that women desire strong, dominant, and powerful men. Period. Men can choose to ignore that fact at the risk of eternal failure to attract a mate and keep her, but it is immutable.

To the OP: Please excuse the off topic thread comment here. I Don't mean to highjack your thread.

Edit: I didn't see your post above before I posted this, but I am glad to see that you and your wife are opening the door to discussions. It is possible that no OM, real or imagined, is involved in your case... I am also glad to see you have found a pro-marriage counsellor... that is a good step in the right direction.

In any event your wife's dissatisfaction with your past relationship didn't evolve from you projecting an attractive image of strength. I don't know what her imagined alternate paradise marriage looks like, but I venture to say she isn't looking for Mr Rogers.


----------



## ComicBookLady

Tony55 said:


> You were not that EXACT woman, your first post on this forum started with...
> _"I am married almost 3 years now. I love my husband very much, but when we argue he becomes an absolute different person, and over the years (been with him almost 7 years now total) I have been slowly losing my resolve to keep trying to get through to him just how hurtful his behavior is."_​I doubt any of us would have accused you of cheating based on that post.
> 
> T


I may not have used the proper wording. My apologies for using the word "exact", no on can be exactly like another person. What I meant was I _seem quite close_ to the woman in this situation. The only major difference I see is I pulled away for less time than 5 years.

And I meant if _My husband_ has posted our account from his POV he would have probably have gotten the "She's cheating" type of advice, because from his POV (and in reality I suppose) I was distant, unempathetic, gave him the ILYBINILWY, said I wanted space, said I wanted a divorce, the whole nine yards. His story would have sounded a lot this OP's and many other's here, ad it would have been okay for other's to come to an "affair" conclusion, but I would hope he would have gotten different advice as well, because in our case I just wanted to be cared about.

All I'm saying that while the affair theory is entirely valid thing to consider, but so is mine for it's own reasons.


----------



## ComicBookLady

anonymously said:


> First I want to thank everyone for insights and advice and opinions. Wheather or not I took them all or have used or listened to all they have all been helpful in one way or another. I am glad I found this place! So far here is where we now are...
> 
> 
> I have found a new councelor, one who is local and have researched his methodolgies, background etc. It also happens to be one who believes that 70% of marriages can be saved. That may be hopeful but at least he is pro marriage.
> 
> I have told my wife that I think she needs to also research him and interview him to make sure that she is comfortable as well. Also asked if she would be more comfortable with a female over a male. It doesnt matter to me, but it may have mattered to her. Incidentally it did not matter to her as well.
> 
> 
> We have also figured out that neither of can do anything about our current state for any future state if we never established what it is that each of us wants from counseling. Nor did we establish what we want from a happy healthy marriage assuming that we actually want a marriage at all. She may not, I may not. I dont believe either one of us can answer any long term questions right now.
> 
> We are both going to be thinking about what we want out of all of this and what we want out of our marriage. We also both need to consider and agree that this is something that we want to save. If the answer is yes, I will have some conditions and expectations which I have laid out but am still considering and reviewing so its not in stone. She is in the process of doing the same. I think she is a bit more confused that I am so it may take her longer but I am ok with that.
> 
> What the main break through is, is that neither one of us has a clue as to what makes us happy anymore with respect to eachother. I have no idea what her expectations from our relationship are anymore. Partly my fault for not stopping my daily routine to think about her happiness and needs, mainly hers for not expressing them to me sooner in a direct manner. She has complained about issues during the years that were external influences like i'm stressed out from work, or tired from taking care of the child and working etc..But never really came to me and said its you and its what you are doing and I need you to do this...
> 
> The same exact applies to her as well. She has no idea what I expect from her, as I have never told her either. We have seemingly gotten more caught up into keeping our lives going than actually paying to our to our lives themselves.
> 
> We both have acknowledged that if we are to stay and make it work we will both need to establish some guidelines as to what each of us wants out this marriage. I am ready to do the hard work that is necassary. I sense that she is too and she is more receptive. I think there is a tremendous amount of resentment, there are also some underlying issues from old skeletons from her past which also effect her in terms of being more guarded than is healthy. Also something I had no idea has still been effecting her.
> 
> At the very least, I am at least now seeing and getting some positive movement toward moving forward together. This is that little light at the end of the tunnel or little sign of hope that I was looking for from her.
> 
> I dont know if these means it will work out, or if it will go completely the wrong way still. That is something that is goin to take a huge amount of work to discover. But at least all is not hopeless at the moment. That can change any moment, but right now I'm just going to focus on moving us in the right direction and trying to build on that from here.
> 
> Oh and BTW, as far as an EA or PA, I really dont believe that is the problem here at all at this point. I believe that I can safely rule that out. So unless something comes up that points to otherwise I am going to let that issue go for now.
> 
> Not sure where we end up from here, but its certainly going to be an interesting ride....to say the least. Will keep everyone posted on how this next MC turns out to be.


Oh I am SO HAPPY for you, Anonymously!  It sounds like you are on a wonderful path to figure stuff out together! Congratulations to both you and your wife, and I hope nothing but the best for you!


----------



## anonymously

Mrs. NotSureWhatToDo said:


> Oh I am SO HAPPY for you, Anonymously!  It sounds like you are on a wonderful path to figure stuff out together! Congratulations to both you and your wife, and I hope nothing but the best for you!


Thank you! There's no guarantee and I suspect that there will many times that things will regress, but unless it turns utterly hostile or to the point where I feel like I am being used unecassarily I will do what ever I can to reel it back in. We are not out of the woods by any means and clearly there are a ton of serious problems with our marriage. She also hasnt completely commited to wheather or not she is wants to really go down what will more than likely be a painful path to repair this now broken relationship. But there are signs of hope now and that is enough to give me the strength I needed to carry on. 

Thank you Mrs. for all your input. I really appreciate the fact that you and a bunch of other strangers on here have gone out of there way to provide the valuable insights that you have. Without it I undoubtebly would have been reacting much much differently to many things. Still hate the fact that I have had to learn all these acronyms like EA, PA etc...but I am glad I did. This forum was a Godsend to me.


----------



## alte Dame

Good luck, anon. Please keep in mind that not all possibilities or analyses are equal. Your W's behavior points *heavily* in one direction based on statistics and experience of human behavior. It's understandable that you don't want to accept that the odds favor a more unpalatable answer, but please keep your eyes open as you move forward.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

anonymously said:


> Thank you! There's no guarantee and I suspect that there will many times that things will regress, but unless it turns utterly hostile or to the point where I feel like I am being used unecassarily I will do what ever I can to reel it back in. We are not out of the woods by any means and clearly there are a ton of serious problems with our marriage. She also hasnt completely commited to wheather or not she is wants to really go down what will more than likely be a painful path to repair this now broken relationship. But there are signs of hope now and that is enough to give me the strength I needed to carry on.


I think it is important that you communciate to your wife both that (1) you are willing to do the hard work to fix your marriage and (2) she is expected to do the same. You need to hold both of you accountable on this.


----------



## Entropy3000

Mrs. NotSureWhatToDo said:


> Very valid post, but please consider that _I was that exact woman_ once and I was absolutey NOT cheating. Should he check for an affair? Sure if he wants, but the culprit is not ALWAYS an affair, but I understand why you would come to that conclusion.


Yes. These are just red flags and only indicate that he do what he can to rule this out. I believe he has stated he has done his due diligence. Hopefully he has done enough. 

He can continue to do that in the background.

Another man is not the only possibility.

I hope they work it out.


----------



## btdt

It sounds like you are off to a good start in putting a plan in place. Your wife's actions also seem encouraging.

I know this is emotionally gut-wrenching, but my advise to you is to try to maintain an even keel as much as possible. Yesterday, you went from saying that you would do anything to save your marriage to calling your wife the anti-Christ in a single post. You need to be the rational one in this relationship, so these emotional fluctuations are counter-productive.

In some sense you may want need to treat this like you would a project with your business. You develop goals or objectives that you want to achieve, then you measure your progress in meeting those objectives. And as it is with any business endeavor, you may need to know when to cut your losses if those objectives are not being met.p
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anonymously

alte Dame said:


> Good luck, anon. Please keep in mind that not all possibilities or analyses are equal. Your W's behavior points *heavily* in one direction based on statistics and experience of human behavior. It's understandable that you don't want to accept that the odds favor a more unpalatable answer, but please keep your eyes open as you move forward.


Yes, I am well aware of that, but as long as there is a sign of possibility of working this thing out and saving it I have to do what I can to make it happen. If that sign disappears though, now that would be a different story all together.


----------



## AWsman

OP, I've been reading these forums the past couple of days, and in fact, your post prompted me to join. I am very sorry for what you're going through. 

First, I know that words on a computer screen come across as harsh and are terribly impersonal. So, first off, please don't take anything I am about to type as being harsh because all I feel for you is empathy, and I just want to try to help, if I can.

I am married to my high school sweetheart. I love my wife more than I have vocabulary to describe. The way we ended up together wasn't right, but I save that story for another time. We have six children, all from previous marriages, and we have a wonderful blended family. Despite all the blessings we have, we've been close to calling it quits on more than one occasion in our soon to be 6 year marriage. So, I know the anxiety, at least somewhat, that you are experiencing.

You and your wife took vows to stay together, forever, no matter what. Divorce is so easy to obtain that vows don't really mean anything...in actuality, people say "I'll stay with you until it gets too hard or you hurt my feelings." I know. I've been there. I did that very thing. As you can tell, I'm in BeardedLion's (BL going forward) camp on the issue. So if you really look at your vows and resign yourself to stick to them...that means something. Just do it...dwell on them and you'll see what I mean. 

I know what it feels like to be busy. You have businesses, etc. We have children. I have a high stress job. My wife works at my office and she also does the laundry, takes care of the kids, etc. I take care of the house, the cars, etc. When our kids aren't with us, we are usually busy preparing for when the kids will be home again. So, I know what busy is.

Do you know what I've found is so important to make sure is accomplished before dealing with my marriage and my spouse? NOTHING. Anything and everything I do for work, to the house, to the car, in reality mean nothing. If I left my job today, in 10 years people at my office wouldn't even know I was here. It's not about putting off work or responsibilities, it's about prioritizing.

The reason I've gone through all that is if BL is correct and your wife is lost, then it's just so much bigger than that. Women need a man to confide in. Women that claim that they "don't need a man" and all men are scum are fooling themselves. I am not saying that women are inferior, in fact, I know that most men would crumble without their lady. If your wife has gone that long without you to confide in, then she needs IC (individual counseling) before MC should continue.

Please don't think that I am just railing on you. I am typing these things because some of your comments, made out of anger, hurt, desperation, sound like things I could have written. When my wife would come to me and try to talk about something that hurt my feelings, I acted like a child and had the attitude of "well, if she feels like that then screw her. I'm a good husband, I do ___, ___ and ___ and she doesn't care about any of it." In reality, the things that could fill in the blanks are not the things that she's asked for, and plainly told me she needs. I had a tendency to blow up over little things, and she finally quit talking just to keep the peace. I am asking you to think about through your whole marriage...how have you reacted when she's come to you...no matter how little the issue, that hurt her feelings or made her wish she hadn't come to you? 

I am a Christian. If you are, then great, but if not it doesn't matter because this still applies. God said for husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church. Christ gave his life for people that hated him...reviled him. As men, we take a bride, and if we are the right kind of man, we are to treat our wives as something precious. A good woman is more precious than gold. 

Has your wife done wrong? Sure. Is it all your fault? No. But, the only thing you can change is your actions and how you treat her. I know your feelings matter too...don't get me wrong. But BL hit the nail on the head...your wife must feel safe and cared for first. When she does, watch out...she'll do everything she can to take care of you.

Is your wife cheating on you? Maybe, maybe not. If I were in your situation, I'd sit her down and tell her "look...I know we're in trouble but this one aspect has to be vetted...have you ever cheated on me? Is there someone influencing how you feel? Tell me the truth, now or never because I'm still concerned that there's someone else. If you lie to me, the truth will come out one way or another, and if I find that you've lied to me on this aspect, we are done...no counseling, no talking, period. If you have cheated, then just be honest and we can at least have a discussion. If you've stepped out, just tell me. If you say you haven't, then I choose to believe you, but you don't have anything to lose by being honest." If she cheated, then find out what she was thinking and why. Bottom line, there is NO EXCUSE for cheating...ever. Even if she was feeling lost and couldn't come to you, that's crossing the line, but it can be dealt with. 

I know your feelings are hurt, and that you want to feel empathy from her. If you get stuck on that, you'll get a divorce. The feeling of wanting a divorce is overpowering when you're pissed or hurt. But, that feeling goes away when the tears start flowing, doesn't it? Bottom line, people say all the time that they aren't "in love" anymore all the time. Being in a real relationship isn't about the gooey feelings and having sex 24/7. It's about going through the valleys and then making time when you reach the mountaintop to enjoy the view. Being in love isn't what it is in the movies...it's sticking to your vows, even when you hate your spouse, getting rid of the junk that is getting in the way, and make them a priority. Marriage isn't really that hard if you are quick to listen, slow to speak, and resign yourself to put yourself aside and be what your spouse needs you to be.

I'm praying for you bud. Bottom line I know what it's like to treat my wife in a way that her feelings get on my nerves, when I get tired of hearing it, when my feelings get hurt, or when I don't get enough intimacy because she feels lost. I didn't realize what I was doing until she was ready to walk out the door and we hadn't spoken, not one word, in a week. I started hating being around her. I wanted her to reach out to me. I'm a good husband, why wouldn't she? My eyes were opened too all the times I wasn't there, all the times I saw hurt on her face that her best friend didn't want to listen. I apologized and now I'm being the man that I need to be to give her what she wants. 

I hope I've been able to help in some way.


----------



## anonymously

btdt said:


> It sounds like you are off to a good start in putting a plan in place. Your wife's actions also seem encouraging.
> 
> I know this is emotionally gut-wrenching, but my advise to you is to try to maintain an even keel as much as possible. Yesterday, you went from saying that you would do anything to save your marriage to calling your wife the anti-Christ in a single post. You need to be the rational one in this relationship, so these emotional fluctuations are counter-productive.
> 
> In some sense you may want need to treat this like you would a project with your business. You develop goals or objectives that you want to achieve, then you measure your progress in meeting those objectives. And as it is with any business endeavor, you may need to know when to cut your losses if those objectives are not being met.p
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Yes, both held true at that moment..and keep in mind that I have been holding back on many emotional reactions with respect to her and I and our own direct communication. With that backstop or bottle up it has to come out somewhere. Typing those words, was release of frustration for me. Screaming it out load when I was alone and nobody else there to hear me....well that was a little better. I continue to hold back from freaking out on her thinking only of how this will effect my child and wheather or not it will recieve a productive response. If the answer is no or negative then I STF UP and move on to next topic or walk away. It's not easy, and its going to come up somewhere. At least here, its Anonymously said.


----------



## Trying to get through it

anonymously said:


> Wow, I am sorry you are dealing with this too. I know how incredibly painful it is first hand. I believe that one way or another things will work well for both us regardless which path our lives will take. My deepest wish is that we each find the strength and deal with it and get to the outcome we both want.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is ironic how similar our situations are. So much advice and input being given here that my heads feels like it is going to explode. It is nice to be able to post here as I have no one where i livi in Indiana that I have or can tell. I just cry a lot, pray a lot and talk out loud to myself a lot..LOL


----------



## anonymously

Trying to get through it said:


> It is ironic how similar our situations are. So much advice and input being given here that my heads feels like it is going to explode. It is nice to be able to post here as I have no one where i livi in Indiana that I have or can tell. I just cry a lot, pray a lot and talk out loud to myself a lot..LOL


Hang in there buddy, I know we will both be alright. We can be there for each other lol

Who knows one we may be talking back about this over a beer somewhere


----------



## Tony55

anonymously said:


> The day before yesterday she tells me that she doesnt love me anymore.
> She said this has been going on for what amounts to over 5 years.
> We have a child together (under 6) who is my world.


Good luck with the marriage counseling, I hope it works.


Find out what made her tell you this on that particular day.
Find out if there's a correlation between the child birth and the loss of love for you.

T


----------



## RClawson

Ok this has nothing to do with the OP but there is something unusual about this thread.


----------



## AWsman

RClawson said:


> Ok this has nothing to do with the OP but there is something unusual about this thread.


Such as?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Fledgling

anonymously said:


> Yes, both held true at that moment..and keep in mind that I have been holding back on many emotional reactions with respect to her and I and our own direct communication. With that backstop or bottle up it has to come out somewhere. Typing those words, was release of frustration for me. Screaming it out load when I was alone and nobody else there to hear me....well that was a little better. I continue to hold back from freaking out on her thinking only of how this will effect my child and wheather or not it will recieve a productive response. If the answer is no or negative then I STF UP and move on to next topic or walk away. It's not easy, and its going to come up somewhere. At least here, its Anonymously said.


This is great! Also keep in mind that eventually that you guys will talk about hard truths. When the time comes hopefully you'll be able to speak the truth with love and not bitterness. The process right now is to learn how to manage the negative emotions in a productive way and to not make the situation worse. But you _will _get to have a voice. You really really will. When it's really tough just remind yourself that you will get to be heard. Use the safety of the counseling room if you feel that what you need to say has to be let out right away. Your therapist will act as a good buffer and may be able to clarify things when you can't articulate to her. Heavy emotions almost always gets in the way of what we really want to say. These things are always rollercoasters. I can tell by the tone of your post when you are feeling calmer and when you feel slammed. Hopefully you'll get to a plateau where you can decompress and gather your thoughts. Everything you say so far is really encouraging!


----------



## meg444

Awsman, 

Wow, I am not usually impressed with advice in forums but I could not have said this better myself. I was going to give some advice as a female who has cheated in the past and/or felt the way his wife feels before I cheated but I really don't think it is necessary now. I simply cannot beat your advice nor do I want to try. My hat (invisible as it is right now) is off to you.  

OP- I really hope things work out for you.


----------



## Trying to get through it

Entropy3000 said:


> Or you could listen to me. A guy with a loving wife who never cheated on him. Trust me, wives like strong men who keep their integrity intact. They know they can count on their man.
> 
> You do not have to sacrifice your integrity to have a happy marriage. In fact if you settle for that you ruin your chances of staying married period.





anonymously said:


> Hang in there buddy, I know we will both be alright. We can be there for each other lol
> 
> Who knows one we may be talking back about this over a beer somewhere


You have no idea how good that sounds.!


----------



## ComicBookLady

Tony55 said:


> Good luck with the marriage counseling, I hope it works.
> 
> 
> Find out if there's a correlation between the child birth and the loss of love for you.
> 
> T


OOH good one! I'm assuming you mean postpartum depression? That is serious business and something that would help explain a lot if that's what she's going through!


----------



## anonymously

AWsman said:


> OP, I've been reading these forums the past couple of days, and in fact, your post prompted me to join. I am very sorry for what you're going through.
> 
> First, I know that words on a computer screen come across as harsh and are terribly impersonal. So, first off, please don't take anything I am about to type as being harsh because all I feel for you is empathy, and I just want to try to help, if I can.
> 
> I am married to my high school sweetheart. I love my wife more than I have vocabulary to describe. The way we ended up together wasn't right, but I save that story for another time. We have six children, all from previous marriages, and we have a wonderful blended family. Despite all the blessings we have, we've been close to calling it quits on more than one occasion in our soon to be 6 year marriage. So, I know the anxiety, at least somewhat, that you are experiencing.
> 
> You and your wife took vows to stay together, forever, no matter what. Divorce is so easy to obtain that vows don't really mean anything...in actuality, people say "I'll stay with you until it gets too hard or you hurt my feelings." I know. I've been there. I did that very thing. As you can tell, I'm in BeardedLion's (BL going forward) camp on the issue. So if you really look at your vows and resign yourself to stick to them...that means something. Just do it...dwell on them and you'll see what I mean.
> 
> I know what it feels like to be busy. You have businesses, etc. We have children. I have a high stress job. My wife works at my office and she also does the laundry, takes care of the kids, etc. I take care of the house, the cars, etc. When our kids aren't with us, we are usually busy preparing for when the kids will be home again. So, I know what busy is.
> 
> Do you know what I've found is so important to make sure is accomplished before dealing with my marriage and my spouse? NOTHING. Anything and everything I do for work, to the house, to the car, in reality mean nothing. If I left my job today, in 10 years people at my office wouldn't even know I was here. It's not about putting off work or responsibilities, it's about prioritizing.
> 
> The reason I've gone through all that is if BL is correct and your wife is lost, then it's just so much bigger than that. Women need a man to confide in. Women that claim that they "don't need a man" and all men are scum are fooling themselves. I am not saying that women are inferior, in fact, I know that most men would crumble without their lady. If your wife has gone that long without you to confide in, then she needs IC (individual counseling) before MC should continue.
> 
> Please don't think that I am just railing on you. I am typing these things because some of your comments, made out of anger, hurt, desperation, sound like things I could have written. When my wife would come to me and try to talk about something that hurt my feelings, I acted like a child and had the attitude of "well, if she feels like that then screw her. I'm a good husband, I do ___, ___ and ___ and she doesn't care about any of it." In reality, the things that could fill in the blanks are not the things that she's asked for, and plainly told me she needs. I had a tendency to blow up over little things, and she finally quit talking just to keep the peace. I am asking you to think about through your whole marriage...how have you reacted when she's come to you...no matter how little the issue, that hurt her feelings or made her wish she hadn't come to you?
> 
> I am a Christian. If you are, then great, but if not it doesn't matter because this still applies. God said for husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church. Christ gave his life for people that hated him...reviled him. As men, we take a bride, and if we are the right kind of man, we are to treat our wives as something precious. A good woman is more precious than gold.
> 
> Has your wife done wrong? Sure. Is it all your fault? No. But, the only thing you can change is your actions and how you treat her. I know your feelings matter too...don't get me wrong. But BL hit the nail on the head...your wife must feel safe and cared for first. When she does, watch out...she'll do everything she can to take care of you.
> 
> Is your wife cheating on you? Maybe, maybe not. If I were in your situation, I'd sit her down and tell her "look...I know we're in trouble but this one aspect has to be vetted...have you ever cheated on me? Is there someone influencing how you feel? Tell me the truth, now or never because I'm still concerned that there's someone else. If you lie to me, the truth will come out one way or another, and if I find that you've lied to me on this aspect, we are done...no counseling, no talking, period. If you have cheated, then just be honest and we can at least have a discussion. If you've stepped out, just tell me. If you say you haven't, then I choose to believe you, but you don't have anything to lose by being honest." If she cheated, then find out what she was thinking and why. Bottom line, there is NO EXCUSE for cheating...ever. Even if she was feeling lost and couldn't come to you, that's crossing the line, but it can be dealt with.
> 
> I know your feelings are hurt, and that you want to feel empathy from her. If you get stuck on that, you'll get a divorce. The feeling of wanting a divorce is overpowering when you're pissed or hurt. But, that feeling goes away when the tears start flowing, doesn't it? Bottom line, people say all the time that they aren't "in love" anymore all the time. Being in a real relationship isn't about the gooey feelings and having sex 24/7. It's about going through the valleys and then making time when you reach the mountaintop to enjoy the view. Being in love isn't what it is in the movies...it's sticking to your vows, even when you hate your spouse, getting rid of the junk that is getting in the way, and make them a priority. Marriage isn't really that hard if you are quick to listen, slow to speak, and resign yourself to put yourself aside and be what your spouse needs you to be.
> 
> I'm praying for you bud. Bottom line I know what it's like to treat my wife in a way that her feelings get on my nerves, when I get tired of hearing it, when my feelings get hurt, or when I don't get enough intimacy because she feels lost. I didn't realize what I was doing until she was ready to walk out the door and we hadn't spoken, not one word, in a week. I started hating being around her. I wanted her to reach out to me. I'm a good husband, why wouldn't she? My eyes were opened too all the times I wasn't there, all the times I saw hurt on her face that her best friend didn't want to listen. I apologized and now I'm being the man that I need to be to give her what she wants.
> 
> I hope I've been able to help in some way.


Awsman, you are awesome man. Thank you for your well thought out and great advice. I really appreciate you taking the time to do that. In fact I appreciate everyone on here who has gone out of there way for thinking about and answering to my situation. You are all awesome....except for that Blonde girl...haha J/K Blonde your awesome too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ComicBookLady

AWsman, your story is truly truly touching, and made me tear up! Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I was the wife in that similar scenario, and my husband had those same revelations and we're SO MUCH better. I am so happy to hear of your success


----------



## Blonde

anonymously said:


> awesome....except for that Blonde girl...haha J/K Blonde your awesome too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




"Wounds made by a friend are intended to help" Prov 27:6


----------



## Vrs

You know what's interesting? When one spouse tells another "I no longer have feelings for you" nothing could be further from the truth. They have feelings all right. Just not romantic ones.

Like in many relationships where one is vocal and the other more reserved, my wife and I have different communication styles. I'm more direct, she's indirect. I'm the vocal one, she's the quiet and reserved one. Apparently she processes information much slower than I do because I can ask her questions and wait for what seems like agonizingly long periods of time for her to answer.

For years I was hardly aware of the difference. I just said my piece and because she's outwardly co-operative I'd think we were on the same page. Then she'd go through periods of being really distant from me and it used to take some time before I caught on. 

Now, we've been together so long, and have worked through so many issues, I'm ultra-sensitive and I quickly become aware when things aren't right. She's also become a lot better at communicating it to me (in ways I can understand without reading minds) so we're able to resolve things pretty fast these days. Today it's RARE that we ever fight (it used to be rare that we didn't fight - seriously) and we've built a lot of trust between us.

When it comes to "I no longer have feelings for you" what that usually means is, "In the past I've felt so let down, disappointed, or hurt, betrayed, or unimportant to you, or undesirable to you, etc., etc., etc. - that I no longer have any reason to believe things will ever change between us, and therefore I have no romantic feelings for you". That's what that means. Maybe not for the exact reasons I gave, but you get the point.

When a spouse "stuffs" their feelings resentments build and the wounded one usually feels like a victim to the other one whom they perceive as the aggressor.

What has to happen for things to improve is a friendship has to be re-established, and a reason to have hope for a future together to be believed again. Because patterns of relating to each other have been set in place - sometimes for years - something will have to interrupt the patterns and new ways of relating to each other have to be found.

Often that involves bringing in a third party you both trust, and attempting to communicate with each other with the 3rd party present so you can bounce things off them and try to get clarity in understanding what you're saying to each other.

You also need space. Lots of it. By space I mean accepting the other person without trying to force the issue (whatever the issue is) and without trying to change them.

This takes courage and practice but if even one of you is willing to try to make things work (at the beginning) it can be done. You just need to be committed to the other person and have the patience to allow time for the process to work.

But the way you've described things, without communication between you at some point, I don't see how it can work. Getting on the same page with each other won't "just happen".


----------



## Fledgling

Vrs said:


> You know what's interesting? When one spouse tells another "I no longer have feelings for you" nothing could be further from the truth. They have feelings all right. Just not romantic ones.
> 
> Like in many relationships where one is vocal and the other more reserved, my wife and I have different communication styles. I'm more direct, she's indirect. I'm the vocal one, she's the quiet and reserved one. Apparently she processes information much slower than I do because I can ask her questions and wait for what seems like agonizingly long periods of time for her to answer.
> 
> For years I was hardly aware of the difference. I just said my piece and because she's outwardly co-operative I'd think we were on the same page. Then she'd go through periods of being really distant from me and it used to take some time before I caught on.
> 
> Now, we've been together so long, and have worked through so many issues, I'm ultra-sensitive and I quickly become aware when things aren't right. She's also become a lot better at communicating it to me (in ways I can understand without reading minds) so we're able to resolve things pretty fast these days. Today it's RARE that we ever fight (it used to be rare that we didn't fight - seriously) and we've built a lot of trust between us.
> 
> When it comes to "I no longer have feelings for you" what that usually means is, "In the past I've felt so let down, disappointed, or hurt, betrayed, or unimportant to you, or undesirable to you, etc., etc., etc. - that I no longer have any reason to believe things will ever change between us, and therefore I have no romantic feelings for you". That's what that means. Maybe not for the exact reasons I gave, but you get the point.
> 
> When a spouse "stuffs" their feelings resentments build and the wounded one usually feels like a victim to the other one whom they perceive as the aggressor.
> 
> What has to happen for things to improve is a friendship has to be re-established, and a reason to have hope for a future together to be believed again. Because patterns of relating to each other have been set in place - sometimes for years - something will have to interrupt the patterns and new ways of relating to each other have to be found.
> 
> Often that involves bringing in a third party you both trust, and attempting to communicate with each other with the 3rd party present so you can bounce things off them and try to get clarity in understanding what you're saying to each other.
> 
> You also need space. Lots of it. By space I mean accepting the other person without trying to force the issue (whatever the issue is) and without trying to change them.
> 
> This takes courage and practice but if even one of you is willing to try to make things work (at the beginning) it can be done. You just need to be committed to the other person and have the patience to allow time for the process to work.
> 
> But the way you've described things, without communication between you at some point, I don't see how it can work. Getting on the same page with each other won't "just happen".


:iagree: To build upon that be aware of what kind of communicating that you are doing. You are communicating with your wife right now and she is hearing you loud and clear. Anger, hurt, resentment. Trust me you are both recieving that message loud and clear. What that means is discussing your issues are really important. But I would also encourage you, when you think you are ready, to communicate in a loving non-issue related way. This can be done verbally face to face, a card, a gift, a compliment, rejoicing in a minor accomplishment she made, noticing when she's being a great mother and letting her know anything like that. The hard part will be holding off any dissapointment if she isn't receptive at first. The whole point of the exercise is to not let those lovin muscles get weak from lack of use!  As Vrs said you have to build a friendship back up. Emphatically that cannot be done by always communicating negatively. The negative is gonna keep on coming..you just can't let it scare you. With that I ma going to co-sign Vrs post about a million times now.


----------



## Quantmflux

This story looks like it is headed in a good direction. I'd suggest that the folks who jump to what they honestly feel is an immediate foregone conclusion based on "patterns" keep this one in mind.

I see the poster who gave the OP what turned out to be the best advice seems to be banned. Why is that? His posts were, IMO, incredibly helpful here.

This forum does seem quite militant, honestly, in its insistence that there absolutely *is* only one answer, one approach, one play book.

Think about what those "upstart" posters were saying.... That often a woman who disconnects is feeling unloved and not validated and it festers.

How ironic if the response to HER "d day" is voice recorders, play books, accusations and an attempt to "fix" her.

I get that many come to these threads from a place of jaded bitterness and disappointment and that is really a crappy place to be, but stop and really think about the irony of the above.

I'm going to bet money that the *vast* majority of actual cheaters don't come and say "I'm falling out of love with you". That simply doesn't fit any sort of definition of selfish behavior. They just keep cheating and taking advantage and having it both ways.

If they're really ready to go, they get the hell out. They don't create a situation where they might get thrown out before they're ready.

I think the methods and formulas and playbooks and pattern analysis is very appealing to the male brain and so guys who have been betrayed get too wrapped up in it and see shadows everywhere.

To the OP, all the best to you. You have been open and honest in sharing your experience and you should feel good about that. Your willingness to share may help others in the future.


----------



## ComicBookLady

Oh wow yeah Bearded Lion was banned? What for? I read all his posts and they didn't seem to cross any rules??


----------



## Decorum

Its a little early to be using this thread as an example of anything yet.

Having said that I have read the posts on here and see some great relationship advice.

The problem is that infidelity is unlike any other problem in a marriage, and if you try to treat it in a way that you would a relating problem, you almost certainly doom the marriage and create intense suffering for the op.

That is why some triage is in order.

Anon- I have seen with my own eyes, on more than one occasion, a wife who could not live with the crushing guilt of an affair any longer, choose divorce rather than confess to a past failure because she believed her husband would not be able to get past a physical affair anyway.

Sometimes its a shocking story and the AP is a family member, or a ONS, or a gang bang. Other times it was just an affair of opportunity that she felt guilty about and ended or did not repeat.

But the guilt becomes a lense through which she views you and your relationship.

Is there anything that you can think of 5 years ago before the pregnancy that gave you pause, but that you (or she) reassured yourself was nothing?

A trip of some kind, a male friend popping up, a preoccupation with some activity, gym, shopping, GNO, a class, club, etc?

Again there may be nothing going on now, nor perhaps for years, but if she is living with guilt (a poison the human system does not tolerate well) you will have to address it to heal the relationship.

And btw if she confesses because you sit her down look her in the eyes and ask her, that would be very rare, usually the BS asks, begs, and pleads for the truth and gets lie after lie after lie.

I'm not saying dont try it, if she confessed then believe her.

But...

You have a better chance of a near earth asteroid smashing into your car on the freeway next week!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anony2

Dedicated2Her said:


> Tall average guy is correct about the IC/MC issue. *If it was true marriage therapy, the marriage would be client, not them individually.*


Not according to our insurance. When my husband and I go to marriage counseling, they bill it under my name or his, thus I am the "client" or he is the "client" but not both of us together. Although when we get the print out of all of our MC appointment, it specifically says "family therapy". I think for insurance purposes, they have to do it like this. Maybe MC is not covered under our plan...which may be true of the OP also.


----------



## Fledgling

Quantmflux said:


> This story looks like it is headed in a good direction. I'd suggest that the folks who jump to what they honestly feel is an immediate foregone conclusion based on "patterns" keep this one in mind.
> 
> I see the poster who gave the OP what turned out to be the best advice seems to be banned. Why is that? His posts were, IMO, incredibly helpful here.
> 
> This forum does seem quite militant, honestly, in its insistence that there absolutely *is* only one answer, one approach, one play book.
> 
> Think about what those "upstart" posters were saying.... That often a woman who disconnects is feeling unloved and not validated and it festers.
> 
> How ironic if the response to HER "d day" is voice recorders, play books, accusations and an attempt to "fix" her.
> 
> I get that many come to these threads from a place of jaded bitterness and disappointment and that is really a crappy place to be, but stop and really think about the irony of the above.
> 
> I'm going to bet money that the *vast* majority of actual cheaters don't come and say "I'm falling out of love with you". That simply doesn't fit any sort of definition of selfish behavior. They just keep cheating and taking advantage and having it both ways.
> 
> If they're really ready to go, they get the hell out. They don't create a situation where they might get thrown out before they're ready.
> 
> I think the methods and formulas and playbooks and pattern analysis is very appealing to the male brain and so guys who have been betrayed get too wrapped up in it and see shadows everywhere.
> 
> To the OP, all the best to you. You have been open and honest in sharing your experience and you should feel good about that. Your willingness to share may help others in the future.


Many times yes!


----------



## anonymously

Mrs. NotSureWhatToDo said:


> Oh wow yeah Bearded Lion was banned? What for? I read all his posts and they didn't seem to cross any rules??


Seriously? WTF? He has very helpful and I did not see anything wrong with anything he said. That makes no sense, unless I missed something.


----------



## F-102

Beardedlion may have said something inappropriate on another thread.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Decorum said:


> Its a little early to be using this thread as an example of anything yet.
> 
> Having said that I have read the posts on here and see some great relationship advice.
> 
> The problem is that infidelity is unlike any other problem in a marriage, and if you try to treat it in a way that you would a relating problem, you almost certainly doom the marriage and create intense suffering for the op.
> 
> That is why some triage is in order.
> 
> Anon- I have seen with my own eyes, on more than one occasion, a wife who could not live with the crushing guilt of an affair any longer, choose divorce rather than confess to a past failure because she believed her husband would not be able to get past a physical affair anyway.
> 
> Sometimes its a shocking story and the AP is a family member, or a ONS, or a gang bang. Other times it was just an affair of opportunity that she felt guilty about and ended or did not repeat.
> 
> But the guilt becomes a lense through which she views you and your relationship.
> 
> Is there anything that you can think of 5 years ago before the pregnancy that gave you pause, but that you (or she) reassured yourself was nothing?
> 
> A trip of some kind, a male friend popping up, a preoccupation with some activity, gym, shopping, GNO, a class, club, etc?
> 
> Again there may be nothing going on now, nor perhaps for years, but if she is living with guilt (a poison the human system does not tolerate well) you will have to address it to heal the relationship.
> 
> And btw if she confesses because you sit her down look her in the eyes and ask her, that would be very rare, usually the BS asks, begs, and pleads for the truth and gets lie after lie after lie.
> 
> I'm not saying dont try it, if she confessed then believe her.
> 
> But...
> 
> You have a better chance of a near earth asteroid smashing into your car on the freeway next week!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This. For every thread like this, there are a half a dozen where there is an OM involved mucking up the works.

Most of the alleged "contary advice" was to do both. Work with your wife but also investigate to rule out other issues such as an affair. No reason the OP should not do both (and in this case he did do some snooping to rule it out). Frankly, advice to not snoop and just assume it is all his fault is just as harmful.

This thread is an unfortunate example of a poster who was advised that cheating was not the issue but rather him. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/63203-please-help-me.html

Unfortunately, the pattern did occur, and she is off with another man.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

anony2 said:


> Not according to our insurance. When my husband and I go to marriage counseling, they bill it under my name or his, thus I am the "client" or he is the "client" but not both of us together. Although when we get the print out of all of our MC appointment, it specifically says "family therapy". I think for insurance purposes, they have to do it like this. Maybe MC is not covered under our plan...which may be true of the OP also.


You are missing the point. It is not about billing or payment. It is about who the counselor views as her patient and responsibility. In this case, the answer pretty clearly showed that the wife was the focus, and he was there just as a spectator. If that was not the case, the therapist could have easily defused that situation by explaining the arrangement you describe, while still assuring that she was working with both of them for a solution. That she did not (either intentionally or because she was unble to) speaks volumes.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

anonymously said:


> Seriously? WTF? He has very helpful and I did not see anything wrong with anything he said. That makes no sense, unless I missed something.


It is not uncommon for the offending post to be deleted as well. There was a quote to a post from BeardedLion that certainly got close to the line of being personal, but I don't know if that was the cause for the ban or not.


----------



## ShawnD

Tall Average Guy said:


> It is not uncommon for the offending post to be deleted as well. There was a quote to a post from BeardedLion that certainly got close to the line of being personal, but I don't know if that was the cause for the ban or not.


That's the problem. If the offending post is deleted, it looks like bans are totally random. It would make more sense to not delete those posts.


----------



## anonymously

I thought I should also clarify one thing too. Some folks have depicted that some of this or some areas of our relationship issues may somehow be my fault. I did not acknowledge or validate her issues, or I did not pay attention to what she was telling me she wanted. I have done much soul searching on this. While there may be some truth to some aspects of this, clearly she has deep rooted issues with our relationship which will need to be addressed if we are to move forward. However at the end of the day, there is no way that I can lay blame on myself for something I dont know about. I am pretty darn good communicator, in fact my carreer depends on my communication skills. I am also relatively articulate and have the capacity to handle critisism fairly well. 

If at anytime she would have come forth with a real issue I can assure you I would have addressed it and tried to do whatever I could to talk it out and put in place a corrective measure. Even if I didnt agree with it I would still have listended and still have been opened to the idea that just because I dont agree doesnt always make me right. That's just the way my personality is and the way I am wired. I can not blame myself for something that I dont know about. I still dont truly know the real reasons behind any of this as she has never really given me one or 100, whichever many it is. This is what has made accepting fault so difficult for me, I am stifling my comments of this nature with her for the moment in an affort to get her to turn around and open up about what she has harbored so that I know what I need to do to try to fix it. I am not pushing this, because that is something that will come out more in therapy. 

Right now my emotions and my feelings are being put on a back burner so that we can deal with hers and I can try to see anything I can do to get her to reconnect enough to where I can have some light shed to move forward together. I'm not saying I am innocenct and did nothing wrong. I probably did. No I definately did or we would not be where we are now. But I could not have done anything different if I never knew what it was I did or was or am doing that is wrong or percieved as wrong in her eyes.


----------



## Goldmember357

If there really is no affair, than its still sad, but its better than there being an affair. 

In my opinion most people who are married are disconnected and not "Truly in love", most have a relationship in which they like the person a lot, find them sexually attractive, and can be emotional with them, but there is no burning fire/passion/deep "consummate love". The marriages that have the "consummate love" are the ones who are always happy, never divorce and grow old together. 


It could be she realizes this and you may have married young or something. Whatever the case i wish you best of luck


----------



## Fledgling

anonymously said:


> I thought I should also clarify one thing too. Some folks have depicted that some of this or some areas of our relationship issues may somehow be my fault. I did not acknowledge or validate her issues, or I did not pay attention to what she was telling me she wanted. I have done much soul searching on this. While there may be some truth to some aspects of this, clearly she has deep rooted issues with our relationship which will need to be addressed if we are to move forward. However at the end of the day, there is no way that I can lay blame on myself for something I dont know about. I am pretty darn good communicator, in fact my carreer depends on my communication skills. I am also relatively articulate and have the capacity to handle critisism fairly well.
> 
> If at anytime she would have come forth with a real issue I can assure you I would have addressed it and tried to do whatever I could to talk it out and put in place a corrective measure. Even if I didnt agree with it I would still have listended and still have been opened to the idea that just because I dont agree doesnt always make me right. That's just the way my personality is and the way I am wired. I can not blame myself for something that I dont know about. I still dont truly know the real reasons behind any of this as she has never really given me one or 100, whichever many it is. This is what has made accepting fault so difficult for me, I am stifling my comments of this nature with her for the moment in an affort to get her to turn around and open up about what she has harbored so that I know what I need to do to try to fix it. I am not pushing this, because that is something that will come out more in therapy.
> 
> Right now my emotions and my feelings are being put on a back burner so that we can deal with hers and I can try to see anything I can do to get her to reconnect enough to where I can have some light shed to move forward together. I'm not saying I am innocenct and did nothing wrong. I probably did. No I definately did or we would not be where we are now. But I could not have done anything different if I never knew what it was I did or was or am doing that is wrong or percieved as wrong in her eyes.


No, this is NOT your fault. The problem as I see it is that there is no BLAME. From what I can see she really hasn't blamed you for anything right? She said I don't love you and you would be a great catch, right? The fact is you guys are in a marriage and you made decisions together that, together, have led to distance between you. You may be open to communication but that doesn't mean you are a great communicator. You may be able to communicate in business, but there people are open to direct talk. Communication takes place in many different forms. For example: You can say you miss you family all you want. You can say things at work are temporary. But your unpoken communication, intentional or not, is that business is more necessary than family. The conversation, in this instance, is whether either of you is right or wrong. Neither of you can win that argument. stalemate. The conversation should be about what can we do to spend more time together as husband and wife and as a family. Seriously. Stop focusing on who's to BLAME about a problem and instead focus on how to fix it. That's where you need the most communication, imho

When people tell you to listen and to validate that isn't about assigning blame to you. It's the only thing you can do. You are not going to change her. You can only try to course correct your own actions and make your skills in these areas sharper. Otherwise you'd be perfect. And I don't think you would say that would you?  

I know I'm going to sound like a broken record, dude. But seriously watch Fireproof. It's great in all it's cheesy glory.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

anonymously said:


> Right now my emotions and my feelings are being put on a back burner so that we can deal with hers and I can try to see anything I can do to get her to reconnect enough to where I can have some light shed to move forward together. I'm not saying I am innocenct and did nothing wrong. I probably did. No I definately did or we would not be where we are now. But I could not have done anything different if I never knew what it was I did or was or am doing that is wrong or percieved as wrong in her eyes.


Nothing wrong with putting your needs on the back burner right now. Someone has to take the first step, adn that you are doing it shows her you want the marriage.

But don't let that fester. Your needs and hurts are important as well. They need to be addressed and she needs to work to ensure she does. Don't let her issues drown-out that there are two in your marriage.

good luck.


----------



## btdt

I see three possibilities here: 1) there are specific reasons why she has fallen out of love with you, 2) she doesn't know the reasons, she simply knows she doesn't love you (but is willing to stay together for the child and the comforts of the marriage), or 3) there is an OM and she is cake eating.

MC will be a waste of time if it is 2 or 3 (or at least as long as there is an OM involved for 3). If it's 1, then the reasons need to come out in MC pretty quickly. I don't see how the MC can go any further until those reasons are defined.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tony55

We have been together for about *10 years* and I have always loved her with all my heart.
She has what every woman would die to have but yet she cant feel anything for me *anymore* and doesn't care or want to be with me.
She said this has been going on for what amounts to over *5 years*

So, she states that she did,_* in fact*_, love you the first 5 years of being together?
Have you been *together* for about 10 years, or *married* for about 10 years?
Was the baby planned?
Do you remember how she acted when she got pregnant? Excited? What?
How did she handle the pregnancy?
Have you asked her if she feels there's a correlation between the two, her becoming pregnant and losing her love for you?

T


----------



## ComicBookLady

F-102 said:


> Beardedlion may have said something inappropriate on another thread.


I checked and he was new and has only a couple posts (all in this thread). If it was the one post Tall Average Guy was talking about, I think it was not meant as an attack, and I've seen WAY worse things said in this forum and they don't get banned.

What a bummer! Hope they a mod rectifies the mistake!


----------



## alte Dame

This thread is a true object lesson. Without the recognition of the 'patterns' that are dismissed here in such a celebratory way, there would be no social science. And social sciences have great credibility and relevance. Whatever counseling OP receives will be based completely on a recognition of these benighted 'patterns.'


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Mrs. NotSureWhatToDo said:


> I checked and he was new and has only a couple posts (all in this thread). If it was the one post Tall Average Guy was talking about, I think it was not meant as an attack, and I've seen WAY worse things said in this forum and they don't get banned.
> 
> What a bummer! Hope they a mod rectifies the mistake!


As I noted, there may have been other posts that were in fact worse, and thus the reason for the ban (or that may have had nothing to do with it). I don't know why, but did want to provide some possibilities.

I do disagree because I thought that post was meant as a personal attack.


----------



## alte Dame

Quantmflux said:


> I'm going to bet money that the *vast* majority of actual cheaters don't come and say "I'm falling out of love with you". That simply doesn't fit any sort of definition of selfish behavior.


Actually, what happens more often than not is that the unfaithful spouse says "I'm not in love with you anymore." And it is selfish behavior. Along with that comes a rewriting of the marital history that legitimizes the cheating for the person who is doing it.

You can deny that this behavior is common, but you would not be correct.


----------



## ComicBookLady

anonymously said:


> I thought I should also clarify one thing too. Some folks have depicted that some of this or some areas of our relationship issues may somehow be my fault. I did not acknowledge or validate her issues, or I did not pay attention to what she was telling me she wanted. I have done much soul searching on this. While there may be some truth to some aspects of this, clearly she has deep rooted issues with our relationship which will need to be addressed if we are to move forward. However at the end of the day, there is no way that I can lay blame on myself for something I dont know about. I am pretty darn good communicator, in fact my carreer depends on my communication skills. I am also relatively articulate and have the capacity to handle critisism fairly well.
> 
> If at anytime she would have come forth with a real issue I can assure you I would have addressed it and tried to do whatever I could to talk it out and put in place a corrective measure. Even if I didnt agree with it I would still have listended and still have been opened to the idea that just because I dont agree doesnt always make me right. That's just the way my personality is and the way I am wired. I can not blame myself for something that I dont know about. I still dont truly know the real reasons behind any of this as she has never really given me one or 100, whichever many it is. This is what has made accepting fault so difficult for me, I am stifling my comments of this nature with her for the moment in an affort to get her to turn around and open up about what she has harbored so that I know what I need to do to try to fix it. I am not pushing this, because that is something that will come out more in therapy.
> 
> Right now my emotions and my feelings are being put on a back burner so that we can deal with hers and I can try to see anything I can do to get her to reconnect enough to where I can have some light shed to move forward together. I'm not saying I am innocenct and did nothing wrong. I probably did. No I definately did or we would not be where we are now. But I could not have done anything different if I never knew what it was I did or was or am doing that is wrong or percieved as wrong in her eyes.


I think BOTH of you would have done things differently had you known how to communicate in the way that is needed for the other person. She COULD have tried other ways to reach you instead of shutting off. You COULD have found the ways to recognize the times when she was trying to be heard. But not everyone is prepared right out of the gate with all the tools we need in life. We all come equipped with our own communication styles, and the trick in marriage is opening ourselves up to learning the other persons needs and to constantly grow as a person. No one is REALLY at fault here. You're both just human  I'm just happy it was all caught in time.


----------



## ComicBookLady

alte Dame said:


> This thread is a true object lesson. Without the recognition of the 'patterns' that are dismissed here in such a celebratory way, there would be no social science. And social sciences have great credibility and relevance. Whatever counseling OP receives will be based completely on a recognition of these benighted 'patterns.'


I don't think anyone's dismissing the patterns found. Those patterns hold true for other instances and are very valid. I think what was difficult is that some people believe that those patterns hold true for EVERY instance, and people are not open to other possibilities. 

But certainly the patterns should be considered along with everything else!


----------



## Fledgling

Mrs. NotSureWhatToDo said:


> I don't think anyone's dismissing the patterns found. Those patterns hold true for other instances and are very valid. I think what was difficult is that some people believe that those patterns hold true for EVERY instance, and people are not open to other possibilities.
> 
> But certainly the patterns should be considered along with everything else!


Maybe. We are all human and therefor we have finite ways expressing ourselves. While it is true that some situations lead naturally to others, it is also true that personalities have alot to do with things. An unaggressive man, told to be aggressive, will almost always fail at it. Because it isn't in his nature. An assertive man told to tame himself, will almost always fail at it. The trick, imho, is to use your strengths and tame your weaknesses. It's what your partner saw in you in the beginning isn't it? So yes there are patterns in the randomness but these things, imho, are not set in stone. Why? Because none of us are set in stone. Marriages change us in unforeseen ways. We should be delighting in this. It should be like extra chapters in our favorite book. Instead we resent it. We resent them. If you want to save your marriage trying to force your partner into a mold to fit a pattern so you can "fix" it just isn't going to work for everyone. Maybe it might work for 6 out of 10 couples. Then, lets' say, two couples can't make it work. How did the other two couples manage to stay together? The answer is that they used a different method. And it worked for them. That's why I see no harm in offering alternatives to the "accepted norm".


----------



## Sigma Uber Alles

Quantmflux said:


> I'm going to bet money that the *vast* majority of actual cheaters don't come and say "I'm falling out of love with you". That simply doesn't fit any sort of definition of selfish behavior. They just keep cheating and taking advantage and having it both ways.
> 
> With all due respect... The first words out of the cheater's mouth are EXACTLY THAT... the "ILYBINILWY Speech... followed by "No, Nothing's going on ! There is nobody else !
> 
> If they're really ready to go, they get the hell out. They don't create a situation where they might get thrown out before they're ready.
> 
> No, they cake eat as long as they can get away with it because they are in a limbic fog and not thinking rationally. Many spouses are not even aware until the end when the deception can no longer be maintained.
> 
> I think the methods and formulas and playbooks and pattern analysis is very appealing to the male brain and so guys who have been betrayed get too wrapped up in it and see shadows everywhere.
> 
> The "Script" is well supported by human behavior and applies to both men and women equally. Ignore at your own risk.
> 
> To the OP, all the best to you. You have been open and honest in sharing your experience and you should feel good about that. Your willingness to share may help others in the future.
> 
> This I totally agree with.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Mrs. NotSureWhatToDo said:


> I don't think anyone's dismissing the patterns found. Those patterns hold true for other instances and are very valid. I think what was difficult is that some people believe that those patterns hold true for EVERY instance, and people are not open to other possibilities.
> 
> But certainly the patterns should be considered along with everything else!


Unfortunately, some do try to dismiss the patterns. Many of the posters who have received the ILYBIAnILWY speech do not recognize it. Others counsel against snooping as it will drive them away.

I think you need to be aware of the patterns and eliminate possibilities where ever you can.


----------



## alte Dame

Mrs. NotSureWhatToDo said:


> I don't think anyone's dismissing the patterns found. Those patterns hold true for other instances and are very valid. I think what was difficult is that some people believe that those patterns hold true for EVERY instance, and people are not open to other possibilities.
> 
> But certainly the patterns should be considered along with everything else!


No. People were not claiming that it holds true for every instance. That would be bad science & wouldn't account for the facts.

What people were saying is that OP's W shows some indicators of infidelity and that he shouldn't dismiss them in the hopes that it's something else. Good MC's will tell you that they cannot help a marriage that has three people in it, so it's a first order of business to ensure to the best of your ability that infidelity is not operative.

It is my opinion that anon is not being well served by a consensus that blinds him to a possibility that is obvious to anyone who has studied the issue of infidelity.


----------



## alte Dame

Fledgling said:


> Maybe. We are all human and therefor we have finite ways expressing ourselves.


No. We are all human and can utter an infinite number of new sentences. The rules that describe how we express ourselves are finite in number.

Human behavior is similar and predictable within definable boundaries. There are observable norms. Even the exceptions are relatively expected and definable.


----------



## Sigma Uber Alles

anonymously said:


> I thought I should also clarify one thing too. Some folks have depicted that some of this or some areas of our relationship issues may somehow be my fault. I did not acknowledge or validate her issues, or I did not pay attention to what she was telling me she wanted. I have done much soul searching on this. While there may be some truth to some aspects of this, clearly she has deep rooted issues with our relationship which will need to be addressed if we are to move forward. However at the end of the day, there is no way that I can lay blame on myself for something I dont know about. I am pretty darn good communicator, in fact my carreer depends on my communication skills. I am also relatively articulate and have the capacity to handle critisism fairly well.
> 
> If at anytime she would have come forth with a real issue I can assure you I would have addressed it and tried to do whatever I could to talk it out and put in place a corrective measure. Even if I didnt agree with it I would still have listended and still have been opened to the idea that just because I dont agree doesnt always make me right. That's just the way my personality is and the way I am wired. I can not blame myself for something that I dont know about. I still dont truly know the real reasons behind any of this as she has never really given me one or 100, whichever many it is. This is what has made accepting fault so difficult for me, I am stifling my comments of this nature with her for the moment in an affort to get her to turn around and open up about what she has harbored so that I know what I need to do to try to fix it. I am not pushing this, because that is something that will come out more in therapy.
> 
> Right now my emotions and my feelings are being put on a back burner so that we can deal with hers and I can try to see anything I can do to get her to reconnect enough to where I can have some light shed to move forward together. I'm not saying I am innocenct and did nothing wrong. I probably did. No I definately did or we would not be where we are now. But I could not have done anything different if I never knew what it was I did or was or am doing that is wrong or percieved as wrong in her eyes.


With all due consideration for your feelings, Sir...

This sounds like the "Betrayed Heart's Stuck Record" played over and over again on countless threads here and elsewhere on cheater/relationship forums.. There may not be a third-party tresspasser in your case, but your situation and wife's statements and demeanor fit the pattern 100%.


----------



## anonymously

Tony55 said:


> We have been together for about *10 years* and I have always loved her with all my heart.
> She has what every woman would die to have but yet she cant feel anything for me *anymore* and doesn't care or want to be with me.
> She said this has been going on for what amounts to over *5 years*
> 
> So, she states that she did,_* in fact*_, love you the first 5 years of being together?
> Have you been *together* for about 10 years, or *married* for about 10 years?
> Was the baby planned?
> Do you remember how she acted when she got pregnant? Excited? What?
> How did she handle the pregnancy?
> Have you asked her if she feels there's a correlation between the two, her becoming pregnant and losing her love for you?
> 
> T


Married for 10 years. No baby was not planned in fact prior to that she said she didnt want kids, I was never really 100% sure but at that time I knew I didnt want kids at that point in our lives regardless. But, like anything else in life not all things are planned and if you make the decision to go forth with it, you accept it and it becomes the most beutiful thing you have ever done. It was a joint decision to accept it and move forward. I never had a regret and supposedly she did not either. This is something that was discussed at great length between us back then.


----------



## Trying to get through it

anonymously said:


> I thought I should also clarify one thing too. Some folks have depicted that some of this or some areas of our relationship issues may somehow be my fault. I did not acknowledge or validate her issues, or I did not pay attention to what she was telling me she wanted. I have done much soul searching on this. While there may be some truth to some aspects of this, clearly she has deep rooted issues with our relationship which will need to be addressed if we are to move forward. However at the end of the day, there is no way that I can lay blame on myself for something I dont know about. I am pretty darn good communicator, in fact my carreer depends on my communication skills. I am also relatively articulate and have the capacity to handle critisism fairly well.
> 
> If at anytime she would have come forth with a real issue I can assure you I would have addressed it and tried to do whatever I could to talk it out and put in place a corrective measure. Even if I didnt agree with it I would still have listended and still have been opened to the idea that just because I dont agree doesnt always make me right. That's just the way my personality is and the way I am wired. I can not blame myself for something that I dont know about. I still dont truly know the real reasons behind any of this as she has never really given me one or 100, whichever many it is. This is what has made accepting fault so difficult for me, I am stifling my comments of this nature with her for the moment in an affort to get her to turn around and open up about what she has harbored so that I know what I need to do to try to fix it. I am not pushing this, because that is something that will come out more in therapy.
> 
> Right now my emotions and my feelings are being put on a back burner so that we can deal with hers and I can try to see anything I can do to get her to reconnect enough to where I can have some light shed to move forward together. I'm not saying I am innocenct and did nothing wrong. I probably did. No I definately did or we would not be where we are now. But I could not have done anything different if I never knew what it was I did or was or am doing that is wrong or percieved as wrong in her eyes.


I have come to the same realization and my therapist is trying to get me to realize this. If I had know. I would have immediately worked on it. It is her issue and it has to be delt with. You or I can not take the blame. Easier said than done because if my taking the blame will bring it around for us I am willing to do so but you can't even take the blame for something you don't know about.


----------



## Fledgling

alte Dame said:


> No. People were not claiming that it holds true for every instance. That would be bad science & wouldn't account for the facts.
> 
> What people were saying is that OP's W shows some indicators of infidelity and that he shouldn't dismiss them in the hopes that it's something else. Good MC's will tell you that they cannot help a marriage that has three people in it, so it's a first order of business to ensure to the best of your ability that infidelity is not operative.
> 
> It is my opinion that anon is not being well served by a consensus that blinds him to a possibility that is obvious to anyone who has studied the issue of infidelity.


I really have a problem with these lines of thinking. Excuse me for saying so but seems like bias to me. Documented bias, sure, but bias none the less. I advise against snooping because you don't gain trust by breaking trust. You don't rekindle someone's love for you by being the complete opposite of the person they loved. If his wife isn't having an affair these actions will likely push her towards one. And if she is having an affair these actions will prove to her that she was right about her husband all along or if it works the way it was intended she'll be to frightened to admit she made a mistake and she'll cling to the other man even harder. And in the meantime while he is doing all this snooping which will apparently save his marriage somehow he will be neglecting his daughter and missing out on more obvious and immediate opportunities to save his marriage. He will be unrecognizable to himself. It will be another cause of resentment toward her. And ultimately I believe that even if he intimidates her into doing what he wants she will never look on it as tough love. Every time that memory surfaces for her heart will ache and she will not be grateful  To me this is bullying disguised as "tough love". Being firm and having boundaries is one thing.This is another.


----------



## Tony55

anonymously said:


> She said she didnt want kids
> I didnt want kids at that point in our lives regardless.
> It was a joint decision to accept it and move forward.
> I never had a regret and *supposedly she did not either*.


You said earlier that you're 40ish, so assuming that means at least 40, that means you were about 35 when the baby was born. Above you say you "_didn't want kids at that point in your lives_", at what point were you thinking you would've liked to have kids?

You also say that you never regretted it and "supposedly she did not either", do you have some doubt about this? Are you saying that she may possibly regret it, you're just not sure?

Are you and your wife close in age?

T


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Fledgling said:


> I really have a problem with these lines of thinking. Excuse me for saying so but seems like bias to me. Documented bias, sure, but bias none the less. I advise against snooping because you don't gain trust by breaking trust. You don't rekindle someone's love for you by being the complete opposite of the person they loved. If his wife isn't having an affair these actions will likely push her towards one. And if she is having an affair these actions will prove to her that she was right about her husband all along or if it works the way it was intended she'll be to frightened to admit she made a mistake and she'll cling to the other man even harder. And in the meantime while he is doing all this snooping which will apparently save his marriage somehow he will be neglecting his daughter and missing out on more obvious and immediate opportunities to save his marriage. He will be unrecognizable to himself. It will be another cause of resentment toward her. And ultimately I believe that even if he intimidates her into doing what he wants she will never look on it as tough love. Every time that memory surfaces for her heart will ache and she will not be grateful  To me this is bullying disguised as "tough love". Being firm and having boundaries is one thing.This is another.


In the case of my wife and I, we are open books to each other. Each of us have ready access to the social media sites we use, e-mail accounts and phones. I don't understand why married couples feel that privacy is expected or insisted upon when it comes multimedia and social outlets. Does privacy extend to the point that a spouse should have the expectation to go out without saying anything to his/her significant other aside from "I'm going out, I'll be back by midnight"? Would asking the questions "where he/she is going out and with who?" be a breeches of trust? 

I find this line of thinking incredibly stupid. It's one thing to be trusting of your spouse, but it's an entirely different thing to expect that spouses should have the right to keep their social lives and personal interactions secret from their SO's. Marriage does not involve keeping secrets from spouses. THAT is what I would call a betrayal of trust.


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## alte Dame

Fledgling said:


> I really have a problem with these lines of thinking. Excuse me for saying so but seems like bias to me. Documented bias, sure, but bias none the less. I advise against snooping because you don't gain trust by breaking trust. You don't rekindle someone's love for you by being the complete opposite of the person they loved. If his wife isn't having an affair these actions will likely push her towards one. And if she is having an affair these actions will prove to her that she was right about her husband all along or if it works the way it was intended she'll be to frightened to admit she made a mistake and she'll cling to the other man even harder. And in the meantime while he is doing all this snooping which will apparently save his marriage somehow he will be neglecting his daughter and missing out on more obvious and immediate opportunities to save his marriage. He will be unrecognizable to himself. It will be another cause of resentment toward her. And ultimately I believe that even if he intimidates her into doing what he wants she will never look on it as tough love. Every time that memory surfaces for her heart will ache and she will not be grateful  To me this is bullying disguised as "tough love". Being firm and having boundaries is one thing.This is another.


You have a right to your way of thinking, surely. But any bias that you perceive is only the recognition of the fat part of a distribution. I can make a relative case for observation being bias, but it will get me absolutely nowhere in terms of saying or doing anything meaningful.

Again, you have your right to your analysis. Like all analyses, it fits within norms but it's not standard in terms of how humans usually behave. That's fine for you, but urging someone else to embrace the tail end of a distribution without recognizing the behavior that represents the lion's share of experience is not, imo, helpful. It's like sprinkling fairy dust.


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## Emerald

Plan 9 from OS said:


> In the case of my wife and I, we are open books to each other. Each of us have ready access to the social media sites we use, e-mail accounts and phones. I don't understand why married couples feel that privacy is expected or insisted upon when it comes multimedia and social outlets. Does privacy extend to the point that a spouse should have the expectation to go out without saying anything to his/her significant other aside from "I'm going out, I'll be back by midnight"? Would asking the questions "where he/she is going out and with who?" be a breeches of trust?
> 
> I find this line of thinking incredibly stupid. It's one thing to be trusting of your spouse, but it's an entirely different thing to expect that spouses should have the right to keep their social lives and personal interactions secret from their SO's. Marriage does not involve keeping secrets from spouses. THAT is what I would call a betrayal of trust.


Agree.

There is no such thing as "snooping" in a loving marriage. 

There is no such thing as "snooping" when it comes to parenting our children.

If my husband gets a call on his cell phone, I ask him who it is if I feel like it. I can go on his email & he can go on mine if we feel like it.

When my daughters accused me of "snooping" I told them family members don't keep secrets.

If my daughters got pregnant as teens, were doing drugs or failing school, I wanted to know about it so I snooped on them.

If my husband told me he hasn't loved me for the past 5 yrs., I want to know if he is cheating & would snoop.

I would get one chance to expose the affair, bust it up, get him out of the fog & work on our marriage...should I decide to stay with him.


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## anchorwatch

I think we're being invaded by the non snooping ideas of DB'ers


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## turnera

anonymously said:


> My first thought was EA and or PA. Still think that's very possible but I may never know the real truth and she swears that isn't the case.


Well, duh, did you EXPECT her to admit it?

Check the phone records and put a keylogger on her computer. See if you can get a GPS on her phone. And whatever you do, DO NOT MOVE OUT OF YOUR HOUSE and DO NOT LET HER TAKE YOUR CHILD OUT OF YOUR HOUSE.


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## Emerald

anchorwatch said:


> I think we're being invaded by the none snooping ideas of DB'ers


Not sure who DB'ers are....

Hell I snooped my husband's emails BEFORE I married him 2 yrs. ago looking for red flags........ :rofl:


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## turnera

anchorwatch said:


> I think we're being invaded by the none snooping ideas of DB'ers


 You know, if you and your spouse are doing fine as far as you know and nobody is mentioning divorce etc. then by all means, don't snoop. 

But when one spouse blows up the marriage, and the other doesn't want it, it becomes war - war to SAVE the marriage. And that requires snooping to find out the truth.


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## Fledgling

Plan 9 from OS said:


> In the case of my wife and I, we are open books to each other. Each of us have ready access to the social media sites we use, e-mail accounts and phones. I don't understand why married couples feel that privacy is expected or insisted upon when it comes multimedia and social outlets. Does privacy extend to the point that a spouse should have the expectation to go out without saying anything to his/her significant other aside from "I'm going out, I'll be back by midnight"? Would asking the questions "where he/she is going out and with who?" be a breeches of trust?
> 
> I find this line of thinking incredibly stupid. It's one thing to be trusting of your spouse, but it's an entirely different thing to expect that spouses should have the right to keep their social lives and personal interactions secret from their SO's. Marriage does not involve keeping secrets from spouses. THAT is what I would call a betrayal of trust.


There is a difference between being an open book to your spouse and trying to bag them in an affair. In one instance you are sharing your life. In the other you are trying to pin something humiliating and terrible on them. I'm sorry that you don't see the difference. They have been living privately for a long time and it would help to be open with each other. But there is an amount of trust there. Getting a secret GPS and hiring a PI? That is far and above snooping or trying to appease curiosity. The second is to to get the "upper hand", pure and simple. Further I would have to wonder why his only interest in those things is now. He was never interested before so how can she view that as him being interested in her because he loves her. The answer. If he starts now when it was never an issue before (and likely was another way he showed that he wasn't interested in her before) is all to bag her in some sort of wrongdoing.


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## Tall Average Guy

Fledgling said:


> And if she is having an affair these actions will prove to her that she was right about her husband all along or if it works the way it was intended she'll be to frightened to admit she made a mistake and she'll cling to the other man even harder.


This makes no sense at all. In this hypothetical, she is a cheater, but gets to justify her behavior based on things he did after she cheated? Sorry, but a cheater does not get to pull the moral high ground card out. If they do, what is there really to save? If she can't be a grown up and admit her mistake, their reconcilliation is doomed, as she is not a fit partner.

This is a big part of why "nicing her back" is looked on with suspiscion. It assumes certain outcomes even more than the 180 crowd and ignores just as many if not more of the messed up fundamental issues.


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## Tony55

Fledgling said:


> Getting a secret GPS and hiring a PI? That is far and above snooping or trying to appease curiosity. The second is to to get the "upper hand", pure and simple. Further I would have to wonder why his only interest in those things is *now*.


Because *now* is the only time she looked him in the eye and said I don't love you and I haven't for years.

T


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## Tall Average Guy

Fledgling said:


> There is a difference between being an open book to your spouse and *trying to bag them in an affair.* In one instance you are sharing your life. In the other *you are trying to pin something humiliating and terrible on them.* I'm sorry that you don't see the difference. They have been living privately for a long time and it would help to be open with each other. But there is an amount of trust there. Getting a secret GPS and hiring a PI? That is far and above snooping or trying to appease curiosity. *The second is to to get the "upper hand", pure and simple.*


Your words demonstrate your bias. This is not about getting the uphand or pinning something on them. It is about determining if there is an outside influance on your spouse. If an affair is going on, then the BS needs to know about it to try and fix things. Otherwise, he is fighting for his marriage without all the information. How can he do that successfully.



> Further I would have to wonder why his only interest in those things is now. He was never interested before so how can she view that as him being interested in her because he loves her. The answer. If he starts now when it was never an issue before (and likely was another way he showed that he wasn't interested in her before) is all to bag her in some sort of wrongdoing.


This is pure double speak. Snooping is wrong, but that fact that he did not snoop before shows he had no interest in her?

Yes, he previously had no reason to snoop. However, since she told him she does not love him and has not for the past fiv years, I think we can agree that things have changed. It is completely reasonable (and warranted) for him to reevaluate his perception of their relationship and whether she deserves his trust. Again, not to bag her but to figure out what is wrong.
as


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## Fledgling

Tall Average Guy said:


> This makes no sense at all. In this hypothetical, she is a cheater, but gets to justify her behavior based on things he did after she cheated? Sorry, but a cheater does not get to pull the moral high ground card out. If they do, what is there really to save? If she can't be a grown up and admit her mistake, their reconcilliation is doomed, as she is not a fit partner.
> 
> This is a big part of why "nicing her back" is looked on with suspiscion. It assumes certain outcomes even more than the 180 crowd and ignores just as many if not more of the messed up fundamental issues.


I don't see it that way. You can say all you want "you don't get to" but when has a cheater ever cared about that? Her feelings are her (or his) feelings. She may even be lying to herself to justify things. But if she was ready to justify her cheating before she not going to all of a sudden have a change of heart if her spouse tells her too. Maybe after she admits to wanting the marriage to work. But while she is sure she still wants out? Might as well write her a written invitation to get out.


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## Fledgling

Tall Average Guy said:


> Your words demonstrate your bias. This is not about getting the uphand or pinning something on them. It is about determining if there is an outside influance on your spouse. If an affair is going on, then the BS needs to know about it to try and fix things. Otherwise, he is fighting for his marriage without all the information. How can he do that successfully.
> 
> 
> 
> This is pure double speak. Snooping is wrong, but that fact that he did not snoop before shows he had no interest in her?
> 
> Yes, he previously had no reason to snoop. However, since she told him she does not love him and has not for the past fiv years, I think we can agree that things have changed. It is completely reasonable (and warranted) for him to reevaluate his perception of their relationship and whether she deserves his trust. Again, not to bag her but to figure out what is wrong.
> as


I'm getting confused with who posted what. To clarify. A couple who are completely open with each other wouldn't have been snooping. They would have been sharing facebook pages just to check in and say hi and do all the other things that happily married couples say and do over social media. Same with sharing texts and the like. In fact if he had been interested in her life and made a habit of keeping up on those things he likely would have seen signs of things being out of balance alot sooner. If he's only interested her now that he thinks she might leave what does that say about their marriage previously. In fact I have seen threads where men are told specifically to act as though they could get another woman, flirt with other women, or might be cheating on her to wake her up and see what she's missing. *shrug*


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## turnera

A couple open with each other would never have ONE of them suddenly wake up one day and say 'gee, I don't love you any more.' Doesn't work that way. Either she's been unhappy for a long time and fell out of love (and WAS NOT OPEN WITH HIM ABOUT IT) or else she started cheating and gave him the ILYBINILWY script (and WAS NOT OPEN WITH HIM ABOUT IT).

In neither of those cases, was she open with him. Therefore, your argument is moot.


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## Plan 9 from OS

Fledgling said:


> I'm getting confused with who posted what. To clarify. A couple who are completely open with each other wouldn't have been snooping. They would have been sharing facebook pages just to check in and say hi and do all the other things that happily married couples say and do over social media. Same with sharing texts and the like. In fact if he had been interested in her life and made a habit of keeping up on those things he likely would have seen signs of things being out of balance alot sooner. *If he's only interested her now that he thinks she might leave what does that say about their marriage previously. * In fact I have seen threads where men are told specifically to act as though they could get another woman, flirt with other women, or might be cheating on her to wake her up and see what she's missing. *shrug*


You assume that the OP never checked up on his wife simply because he didn't care to. However, what I've seen through experience and on this forum is not a lack of concern but a belief that privacy in a marriage is sacrosanct. I've read too many times on these forums where a BS is writing "I feel terrible about snooping through her private e-mail account...". Was it because the BS never cared to check up on his/her spouse? Or was it the misplaced ideal that privacy within marriage should be maintained and privacy is "good" because it maintains a person's "individuality" that is "his along" or "hers alone".


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## Tall Average Guy

Fledgling said:


> I'm getting confused with who posted what. To clarify. A couple who are completely open with each other wouldn't have been snooping. They would have been sharing facebook pages just to check in and say hi and do all the other things that happily married couples say and do over social media. Same with sharing texts and the like. In fact if he had been interested in her life and made a habit of keeping up on those things he likely would have seen signs of things being out of balance alot sooner. If he's only interested her now that he thinks she might leave what does that say about their marriage previously. In fact I have seen threads where men are told specifically to act as though they could get another woman, flirt with other women, or might be cheating on her to wake her up and see what she's missing. *shrug*


Well, that is a slightly different position, but still double speak.

I trust my wife and show a lot of interest in what she things and does. I have never gone through her sent email before, and have only looked at her email account to find specific ones, usually at her request. It is open to me, but I have never had a reason to do so. Yet if she told me she did not love me and had not for the past five years, the fact that I would start looking now is evidence that I never really was interested in her before? That just ain't true.

That is not even getting into the hand waive you seem to give to the cheating in the first place. After all, if you find out about it, you may upset the cheater. Add to it the implicit blame on the BS, and I will confess I really don't get that position.


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## alte Dame

Double speak is a good word for some of this fatuous argumentation. Lots of it is circular and doesn't make sense. Some of it sounds like a case of 'thou dost protest too much.'

Bottom line for me is that OP's W is acting in ways that throw up some red flags. It's his choice to pursue the question of infidelity. If he does pursue it & finds that it's a reality, he will then face certain choices. If he pursues it & and finds no evidence, he will have other choices. If he chooses not to pursue, yet again, other choices.

If there is an OM, though, his choice to not find out will doom any chance of retrieving the marriage. 

The incoherent arguments here, imo, say that if he pursues at all, this will be a bad thing, independent of what he finds, so better to sweep any suspicions under the rug and assume completely honorable behavior on the part of the W. Magical thinking, in my experience.


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## Fledgling

Tall Average Guy said:


> Well, that is a slightly different position, but still double speak.
> 
> I trust my wife and show a lot of interest in what she things and does. I have never gone through her sent email before, and have only looked at her email account to find specific ones, usually at her request. It is open to me, but I have never had a reason to do so. Yet if she told me she did not love me and had not for the past five years, the fact that I would start looking now is evidence that I never really was interested in her before? That just ain't true.
> 
> That is not even getting into the hand waive you seem to give to the cheating in the first place. After all, if you find out about it, you may upset the cheater. Add to it the implicit blame on the BS, and I will confess I really don't get that position.


But it's open to you, right? You may not have a reason to do so, because of trust. But you could it if you wanted to and she knows that. She even asks you to look at things. If the OP still has access to her email and texts and phone logs (as he would have done from earlier in their marriage) then she must feel that she has nothing to hide. So why do it, then? If you really want to find out what's wrong reading everything retroactively through a lense of hurt is not goinng to be helpful. 

The OP has indicated he has taken these measures and come up with nothing anyway) If she is leaving it open to actively decieve him (by deleting stuff) reading it isn't going to do any good either. 

Look I know that you all don't like what I say. I daresay I am going to be on the boards chiming in as I see fit. This is my stance on this. You are well within your rights to disagree with my points, or think negatively of me if you wish. I understand that you think that I am wrong but ultimately the OP will decide if my advice has any merit. Attacking me to make me go away so that I can't unduly influence him is frankly juvenile, IMHO. If he decides that my input is no longer wanted or necessary he is free to tell me so here in thread or in a private message and I will gracefully leave. No hard feelings. But I find it hard to believe that this is such a good ole boys club that you take issue with me to the point of downright heckling me.


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## turnera

We don't think negatively of you. We just know that what you are saying doesn't work. Not with 95% of cases that show up here.


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## Tall Average Guy

Fledgling said:


> I don't see it that way. You can say all you want "you don't get to" but when has a cheater ever cared about that? Her feelings are her (or his) feelings. She may even be lying to herself to justify things. But if she was ready to justify her cheating before she not going to all of a sudden have a change of heart if her spouse tells her too. Maybe after she admits to wanting the marriage to work. But while she is sure she still wants out? Might as well write her a written invitation to get out.


And how will be nice and wonderful help? If that is her mindset, anything he does will be viewed with suspiscion. So he can be a doormat and hope she comes back, or he can stand up for himself and tell her he deserves better. I will never tell anyone to do the former.


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## Tall Average Guy

Fledgling said:


> But it's open to you, right? You may not have a reason to do so, because of trust. But you could it if you wanted to and she knows that. She even asks you to look at things. If the OP still has access to her email and texts and phone logs (as he would have done from earlier in their marriage) then she must feel that she has nothing to hide. So why do it, then? If you really want to find out what's wrong reading everything retroactively through a lense of hurt is not goinng to be helpful.


Why would it not help? Are you seriously saying it is better to stay in the dark and not educate yourself? That makes absolutley no sense.



> The OP has indicated he has taken these measures and come up with nothing anyway) If she is leaving it open to actively decieve him (by deleting stuff) reading it isn't going to do any good either.


It is good that he did so. I would not advise him to stop there, but make sure what he is seeing is in fact the truth.



> Look I know that you all don't like what I say. I daresay I am going to be on the boards chiming in as I see fit. This is my stance on this. You are well within your rights to disagree with my points, or think negatively of me if you wish. I understand that you think that I am wrong but ultimately the OP will decide if my advice has any merit. Attacking me to make me go away so that I can't unduly influence him is frankly juvenile, IMHO. If he decides that my input is no longer wanted or necessary he is free to tell me so here in thread or in a private message and I will gracefully leave. No hard feelings. But I find it hard to believe that this is such a good ole boys club that you take issue with me to the point of downright heckling me.


I am not attacking you, but I am attacking your position, just as you have done mine. I am not doing so to chase you away, but rather to defend my position and understand yours. Frankly, if you can't take some questioning into your position, that is your problem. I have not heckled you, but I have challenged you to defend your position, just like you did mine. I don't see anything unreasonable in either of us doing that.

I will also stop because I have taken this far enough away from helping the OP.


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## Fledgling

turnera said:


> We don't think negatively of you. We just know that what you are saying doesn't work. Not with 95% of cases that show up here.


Yes, you are. It must be nice to think you're always right. That's how alot of marriages fail. I made myself clear before. But that is how I feel about the situation and the OP can decide for himself if he agrees with any of my suggestions.


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## turnera

Look, I've been giving advice on forums for more than 10 years. I've dealt with infidelity in probably 3000 to 4000 cases over that time. I've seen them from beginning to the end of each one, so I know what the statistics prove out. It takes about that many samples to have a statistically reliable database. And here is what I have learned: Nearly every BH tries to nice his wife out of leaving or cheating, initially. Out of fear that she'll leave him. Of the ~4000 BSs whose stories I've followed, I can name on ONE hand the number of those who stuck with the nice routine and saved their marriage. The majority of those who saved their marriage took a firm but loving stance in which they said I love you, but I won't beg you if you don't want to stay. And when infidelity is involved, I can only think of ONE marriage in which the BS did not snoop and yet recovered the marriage. And that was a unique case. So, yeah, I'm pretty sure you can't nice a WS out of cheating, and you can hardly nice a WAW out of leaving.


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## Fledgling

I have not seen "firm but loving". What I see is bullying "disguised as tough love". If the OP wants to leave then leave. Don't lower yourself to the standard of the wayward spouse just so that you can say you have tried everything before divorcing them anyway. I have seen so many contradictory advice so far. Even if one person is helped by my advice (even if for no other reason than it's not a never ending parade of negativism) then I don't feel like I'm doing more harm than good. You guys are a sea and I am a little boat in a big sea. I am no threat to you. Seriously.


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## turnera

What bullying?


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## Tony55

Fledgling said:


> You guys are a sea and I am a little boat in a big sea. I am no threat to you. Seriously.


I believe you're entitled to your opinion on this, and I respect it, and I believe you have the best intentions, and there's even a chance you may be right. Either way, telling a spouse you don't love them anymore, and haven't for years, is a terrifying prospect and needs to be investigated thoroughly because it's the OP's life at stake here... literally.

I personally, thank you for your input Fledging.

T


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## ComicBookLady

Personally, I tend to agree with Fledgling, but I see both sides.

I _personally_ view the "I love you but I will not beg you to stay" as a play from an emotionally immature person who is scared to make himself vulnerable to doing what REALLY needs to be done in this situation. Which often includes opening yourself up to your wife's POV in which she is probably very unhappy with some things you've done. And then you have to be accountable for her pain. That's HARD TO DO so I can see trying to take the easy route would be quite tempting.

As to my reasoning for the dislike of taking a stand (or pulling a "180") - You're not only shunting aside your wife's feelings, but also avoiding having to do anything by putting the ball back in her court. You're then forcing her (aka BULLYING) to either A) Stay and put up with a husband she's extremely unhappy with and put up with him the way he is (meaning HE doesn't have to change, and SHE has to live unhappily = nothing truly solved/ very unfair); or B) She can leave... if she's strong enough. You know how hard it is to take that final FINAL step. 

So in that instance, of COURSE a 180 would initially get some women to stay (those women who are too scared to leave). But men, you're not making her happy. You're not fulfilling her needs as a cherished partner. You're forcing her to live with a man who was too selfish to listen to her and change WITH her for the better. It's truly truly sad to me.

But then, I _KNOW_ many in this forum are going to disagree, but that's okay too. 

Fledgling, I really don't think they dislike YOU or are meaning to attack you at all. They're just arguing your position. I liked many of your points and I think you're really good at voicing your opinions in a respectful way


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## Tall Average Guy

ComicBookLady said:


> You're forcing her to live with a man who was too selfish to listen to her and change WITH her for the better. It's truly truly sad to me.


Why do you assume this?


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## Entropy3000

Fledgling said:


> I don't see it that way. You can say all you want "you don't get to" but when has a cheater ever cared about that? Her feelings are her (or his) feelings. She may even be lying to herself to justify things. But if she was ready to justify her cheating before she not going to all of a sudden have a change of heart if her spouse tells her too. Maybe after she admits to wanting the marriage to work. But while she is sure she still wants out? *Might as well write her a written invitation to get out.*


I think this is the right option.

If you cheat ... you own it.

Serious question. Are some of you folks just coming over from doc**** or are you coming over from MB?

There is an awful lot of cheater justification or that whole Plan A stuff where it is on the BS to do all of the work and take all of the responsibiliy. Even Dr. Harley was not a fan of Plan A. he even has said he himself would find a PA a deal breaker for him.


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## anonymously

So we saw the new therapist, seems to be much better. Despite that she still tells that I'm not in love with you. I asked her afterwards why do you want to do this therapy. In other words what are your expectations ? She says because my family is important to me, because marriage is important to me? But I'm not in love with you, I love you as a person but I'm not in love with you. According to her, that's what she is trying to figure out in therapy. So then why am I putting myself through this agony? Why go through all this to have her tell me in 3-6 months that she is still not in love with me? I don't want to ever be with any person who is not in love with me. I'm sorry but I deserve better than that regardless of who you are. 

Trying to justify a reason to not call it quits now and spare myself more of this bs. Just can't find one right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ComicBookLady

Tall Average Guy said:


> Why do you assume this?


Because in that instance the man is ONLY considering his own needs. He pulls a "power play" in which he is avoiding having to be vulnerable and accountable to his wife . It is a move that makes him feel powerful and in control.

But in reality, it is a solution that means you don't properly listen and understand your wife's needs and change _with_ her accordingly (women need to change too) to obtain true marital happiness.

So that, to me, is selfish. I feel like any kind of "strong moves" I've seen described here only do more damage. Power plays do not belong in a marraige. 

And to be fair women do it too, it's not just men. 

But then, that's just my opinion. I hope I explained that in a way that made sense!


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## ComicBookLady

anonymously said:


> So we saw the new therapist, seems to be much better. Despite that she still tells that I'm not in love with you. I asked her afterwards why do you want to do this therapy. In other words what are your expectations ? She says because my family is important to me, because marriage is important to me? But I'm not in love with you, I love you as a person but I'm not in love with you. According to her, that's what she is trying to figure out in therapy. So then why am I putting myself through this agony? Why go through all this to have her tell me in 3-6 months that she is still not in love with me? I don't want to ever be with any person who is not in love with me. I'm sorry but I deserve better than that regardless of who you are.
> 
> Trying to justify a reason to not call it quits now and spare myself more of this bs. Just can't find one right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am so happy the new therapist seems better!

That must be so painful to continue hearing that from her  I understand how sometimes you just want to get it over with because it hurts so bad.

You are only at the beginning of the road to healing your marriage. Her feelings are not going to be resolved (one way or another)_yet_. It will take time. Be strong, you have a family and marriage that is worth trying for. You are doing wonderfully, and I have a lot of respect for what you're doing and going through for your wife and family.

Big hug and lots of good thoughts towards you and your wife. And thanks for keeping us posted!


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## Tony55

anonymously said:


> Trying to justify a reason to not call it quits now and spare myself more of this bs. Just can't find one right now.


She needs to tell you exactly *when* she fell out of love with you; before finding out she was pregnant, during pregnancy, or after giving birth. If it's after giving birth, how long after.

If you get the answer to this, you'll probably get the answer to whether or not you should hang in there.

Edit: I meant to follow that by saying, *if she can tell you WHEN, she can probably tell you WHY*.

T


----------



## Decorum

I have only skimmed these replys because once everyone starts grinding their positions into fine flower I lose interest. Different opinions are fine the op will decide for himself.

But the posters I see apologising are among the most effective and respectful on here, (an occasional 2x4 not withstanding).

If you are going to get your feelings hurt everytime you have to argue a minority opinion then ask YOURSELF why.

I want to genuinely welcome everyone who is new to posting here, most are here to help, yourself included no doubt, time will tell.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

Anon,
I have seen (on here) spouses who say they never really loved their partner, or there was love but no passion from the start.

Others have said they started falling out of love with their husbands because of some event, habit, crises, etc.

If she could tell you when it started it might help you know better how to address it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Why go through it? So you will know - for yourself and for your family - that you tried absolutely everything before giving up. If you just walk away now, how do you explain that to your kids?


----------



## Sigma Uber Alles

Fledgling said:


> There is a difference between being an open book to your spouse and trying to bag them in an affair. In one instance you are sharing your life. In the other you are trying to pin something humiliating and terrible on them. I'm sorry that you don't see the difference.
> 
> It is impossible to "bag" a loving spouse in an affair because loving spouses are open and don't cheat. Now when they become unloving, deceiving liars who try to cover their tracks... that is another story. The loving spouse is easy to identify... the unloving liar is not. The OP's wife is clearly unloving... but is she a liar? You are asking him to "take it on trust" that she is not also deceitful just because you find it distateful to ever question the veracity of a person who is clearly not concerned about your feelings. I'm sorry *you* don't see the difference between reason and naivete.
> 
> They have been living privately for a long time and it would help to be open with each other. But there is an amount of trust there.
> 
> Yes, trust and openess is an absolute prerequisite for love to last... but isn't it just sooo much more convenient to hide the truth sometimes?
> 
> Getting a secret GPS and hiring a PI? That is far and above snooping or trying to appease curiosity. The second is to to get the "upper hand", pure and simple.
> 
> No, it's doing what is necesary to get to the truth of a situation where his wife is offering no information.
> 
> Further I would have to wonder why his only interest in those things is now. He was never interested before so how can she view that as him being interested in her because he loves her. The answer. If he starts now when it was never an issue before (and likely was another way he showed that he wasn't interested in her before) is all to bag her in some sort of wrongdoing.
> 
> He is interested "now" because she wasn't exhibiting a desire to sink the marriage "before" and he actually cares enough about her and the marriage to be willing to do what is necessary to get to the bottom of her state of emotion..


----------



## Sigma Uber Alles

Fledgling said:


> I'm getting confused with who posted what. To clarify. A couple who are completely open with each other wouldn't have been snooping. *They would have been sharing facebook pages just to check in and say hi and do all the other things that happily married couples say and do over social media.* Same with sharing texts and the like. In fact if he had been interested in her life and made a habit of keeping up on those things he likely would have seen signs of things being out of balance alot sooner. If he's only interested her now that he thinks she might leave what does that say about their marriage previously. In fact I have seen threads where men are told specifically to act as though they could get another woman, flirt with other women, or might be cheating on her to wake her up and see what she's missing. *shrug*


I thought you said sharing passwords and being open about social media was intrusive and an affront because it questioned trust? Private or open accounts? Secret passwords on phones and email or transparency? Which is it?

Personally I think F * * * BOOK is the worst thing that ever happened to relationships.


----------



## anonymously

Fledgling , this goes out to you. I never said anything about a private investigator. That's pointless my state is no fault, there is no upper hand in this. Did I snoop for my own satisfaction you bet your but I did. Who wouldn't? I did not find anything so I have trust there is no OM. As far as her, she has asked to for nothing. She never even came clean about how she feels toward me. Just pretended and deceived me into believing I had a wife who loved me. So riddle me this...how do you you listen to someone who isn't speaking? How do you change for someone who never asks? What do you change? And what exactly am I supposed to change? Should I just have guessed at some point that there is something about me that needs changing? You can change what you don't know. Tonight she tells me she doesn't even like anything about my personality. Oh really? Well then wtf am I subjecting myself to your stabbing me in heart for? I really want to ask her if she is retarded? She's definitely bat crap crazy. I'm a human being and any human being can only take so much crap. This is the equivalent of taking a crap and then sticking my head in the toilet while I flush.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

anonymously said:


> So we saw the new therapist, seems to be much better. Despite that she still tells that I'm not in love with you. I asked her afterwards why do you want to do this therapy. In other words what are your expectations ? She says because my family is important to me, because marriage is important to me? But I'm not in love with you, I love you as a person but I'm not in love with you. According to her, that's what she is trying to figure out in therapy. So then why am I putting myself through this agony? Why go through all this to have her tell me in 3-6 months that she is still not in love with me? I don't want to ever be with any person who is not in love with me. I'm sorry but I deserve better than that regardless of who you are.
> 
> Trying to justify a reason to not call it quits now and spare myself more of this bs. Just can't find one right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, let me step in one moment. I can tell you that when you are married for an extended period that life intervenes and so on. We fall in and out of love with our spouse. This comes down to the residual levels of Dopamine. We can love our spouse pretty much continuously. That is levels of Oxytocin.

Sooooo when you defined your roles earlier you defined to some extent roles that meet some needs related to oxytocin. But not dopamine.

You need to increase the dopamine. You will find that the oxytocin goes up too becasue you will be meeting more needs.

My point is that it is natrual to fall in and out of love. And while some people say when a woman is done they are done, I think they may be only mostly done. It depends. I think in your wifes, case it is the latter. She needs to realize to a great extent being in love can be an affirmation. You can program yourself to start feeling the in love feelings. Once you start getting into you will find the dopamine rushing again. _I know because I did this myself_. And my wife soon followed. I just had to take the lead and assure her I was not going to shut down on her.

This is critical for couples to understand. You can fall back in love. You just have to put in the effort. If you love your partner you should be willing to put in the effort to be in love with them.

What will kill this is if it turns our there is a 3rd party in the marriage.

Also let me be clear while it may seem that turning the _in love_ feelings back on is very Beta I can tell you it takes a lot of Alpha too. You start getting the intimacy going again. Then as things progress you can show your Alpha. 

His Needs Her Needs is great. MMSL will help with the oxytocin versus dopamine stuff.

But none of this works if there is an OM.


----------



## Sigma Uber Alles

ComicBookLady said:


> Because in that instance the man is ONLY considering his own needs. He pulls a "power play" in which he is avoiding having to be vulnerable and accountable to his wife . It is a move that makes him feel powerful and in control.
> 
> But in reality, it is a solution that means you don't properly listen and understand your wife's needs and change _with_ her accordingly (women need to change too) to obtain true marital happiness.
> 
> So that, to me, is selfish. I feel like any kind of "strong moves" I've seen described here only do more damage. Power plays do not belong in a marraige.
> 
> And to be fair women do it too, it's not just men.
> 
> But then, that's just my opinion. I hope I explained that in a way that made sense!


You truly are looking at the OP's situation through your own personal pain aren't you?


----------



## Fledgling

ComicBookLady said:


> Personally, I tend to agree with Fledgling, but I see both sides.
> 
> I _personally_ view the "I love you but I will not beg you to stay" as a play from an emotionally immature person who is scared to make himself vulnerable to doing what REALLY needs to be done in this situation. Which often includes opening yourself up to your wife's POV in which she is probably very unhappy with some things you've done. And then you have to be accountable for her pain. That's HARD TO DO so I can see trying to take the easy route would be quite tempting.
> 
> As to my reasoning for the dislike of taking a stand (or pulling a "180") - You're not only shunting aside your wife's feelings, but also avoiding having to do anything by putting the ball back in her court. You're then forcing her (aka BULLYING) to either A) Stay and put up with a husband she's extremely unhappy with and put up with him the way he is (meaning HE doesn't have to change, and SHE has to live unhappily = nothing truly solved/ very unfair); or B) She can leave... if she's strong enough. You know how hard it is to take that final FINAL step.
> 
> So in that instance, of COURSE a 180 would initially get some women to stay (those women who are too scared to leave). But men, you're not making her happy. You're not fulfilling her needs as a cherished partner. You're forcing her to live with a man who was too selfish to listen to her and change WITH her for the better. It's truly truly sad to me.
> 
> But then, I _KNOW_ many in this forum are going to disagree, but that's okay too.
> 
> Fledgling, I really don't think they dislike YOU or are meaning to attack you at all. They're just arguing your position. I liked many of your points and I think you're really good at voicing your opinions in a respectful way


Thank you. I agree with everything you said. I am fine with arguing a position. But I have had my opinions called stupid, uninformed, vacuous, and incoherent, a cheater's lawyer and a rug sweeper, and most recently a whiner, just to name a few and this is the course over two threads. I don't even know what this plan A stuff is about and I get the feeling that there is a rival forum of which I am unaware. It's nice to debate viewpoints but not a)not in someone elses thread and b)not to belittle someone for simply being honest. I get the feeling that these kind of debates touch a nerve. I get that. I don't agree with alot of advice given but if it works for them that's awesome. My feelings are not hurt overr any of this. It just gets tiring when this isn't what I came to this thread to do. I am positive there are better places to gave these discussions.

ETA: Sorry for the typos. Typing one handed while nursing the baby.  Who says I can't multitask?


----------



## Entropy3000

Fledgling said:


> Thank you. I agree with everything you said. I am fine with arguing a position. But I have had my opinions called stupid, uninformed, vacuous, and incoherent, a cheater's lawyer and a rug sweeper, and most recently a whiner, just to name a few and this is the course over two threads. I don't even know what this plan A stuff is about and I get the feeling that there is a rival forum of which I am unaware. It's nice to debate viewpoints but not a)not in someone elses thread and b)not to belittle someone for simply being honest. I get the feeling that these kind of debates touch a nerve. I get that. I don't agree with alot of advice given but if it works for them that's awesome. My feelings are not hurt overr any of this. It just gets tiring when this isn't what I came to this thread to do. I am positive there are better places to gave these discussions.
> 
> ETA: Sorry for the typos. Typing one handed while nursing the baby.  Who says I can't multitask?


Women tend to be multitaskers while men tend to focus on phases and attack things methodically.

I find this makes male / female couples complimentary. Neat stuff.


----------



## Fledgling

anonymously said:


> Fledgling , this goes out to you. I never said anything about a private investigator. That's pointless my state is no fault, there is no upper hand in this. Did I snoop for my own satisfaction you bet your but I did. Who wouldn't? I did not find anything so I have trust there is no OM. As far as her, she has asked to for nothing. She never even came clean about how she feels toward me. Just pretended and deceived me into believing I had a wife who loved me. So riddle me this...how do you you listen to someone who isn't speaking? How do you change for someone who never asks? What do you change? And what exactly am I supposed to change? Should I just have guessed at some point that there is something about me that needs changing? You can change what you don't know. Tonight she tells me she doesn't even like anything about my personality. Oh really? Well then wtf am I subjecting myself to your stabbing me in heart for? I really want to ask her if she is retarded? She's definitely bat crap crazy. I'm a human being and any human being can only take so much crap. This is the equivalent of taking a crap and then sticking my head in the toilet while I flush.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ack! I apologize I made it seem that you would hire one. I saw advice to not only snoop but to do whatever it takes (like hire a PI or secret GPS tracking) to uncover a OM. I'm not faulting you for snooping. It's a natural reaction. But did it solve any of your questions. Did it answer anything for you, truly? If you're still positive that there is another man now you have to let it linger and deal with thethought that she's really evil and that she deleted everything on top of everything else. And it may not even be true! You're battling her over something that you can't even prove without going far beyond snooping. She's doing enough to drive you crazy right now.  why add another log to the fire when you don't need to.

You're right. She's acting crazy right now. And it's so tempting to just look for justification for letting her leave. But I believe you wouldn't feel this way if you didn't love her. I'm glad the new therapist is better. Therapy does take a while to "take hold". if you feel that you aren't being validated make sure that you bring stuff up in therapy where your therapist can intervene and let cooler heads prevail. You are a strong man, and I believe you will get through this.


----------



## Sigma Uber Alles

anonymously said:


> Fledgling , this goes out to you. I never said anything about a private investigator. That's pointless my state is no fault, there is no upper hand in this. Did I snoop for my own satisfaction you bet your but I did. Who wouldn't? I did not find anything so I have trust there is no OM. As far as her, she has asked to for nothing. *She never even came clean about how she feels toward me. Just pretended and deceived me into believing I had a wife who loved me.* So riddle me this...how do you you listen to someone who isn't speaking? How do you change for someone who never asks? What do you change? And what exactly am I supposed to change? Should I just have guessed at some point that there is something about me that needs changing? You can change what you don't know. *Tonight she tells me she doesn't even like anything about my personality.* Oh really? Well then wtf am I subjecting myself to your stabbing me in heart for? I really want to ask her if she is retarded? *She's definitely bat crap crazy.* I'm a human being and any human being can only take so much crap. This is the equivalent of taking a crap and then sticking my head in the toilet while I flush.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Anon,
I know you've said you've checked thoroughly... so did we all... but the more you've said about your wife's strange (irrational), unbelievable (to you), and out-of-character behavior (because she has changed beyond all imagination)... the stronger the stench of "Eau de Tresspasser" is in the air.

This is why so many of us here suspect a third party influence on your wife.

When a spouse comes under the influence of primal mating limbic drives triggered by EA or PA, they become drug addicts and all rationality goes out the window. They must lie, obfuscate, deflect, delay, conflate issues with, rewrite history of and confuse the BS at every turn in order to protect their drug supplier... (the OM).

If this is the case, she can't tell you what to change because it isn't about you.


----------



## Tony55

anonymously said:


> I really want to ask her if she is retarded? She's definitely bat crap crazy. I'm a human being and any human being can only take so much crap. This is the equivalent of taking a crap and then sticking my head in the toilet while I flush.


Ask her about the baby.

T


----------



## anonymously

Decorum said:


> Fledging,
> 
> "But I have had my opinions called stupid, uninformed, vacuous, and incoherent, a cheater's lawyer and a rug sweeper, and most recently a whiner,"
> 
> As I said I Skimmed, and I did not see the "stupid", or the "lawyer" comment, the first is a personal insult, the second questions your motives. I would agree that they are out of line, the others are valid ststements, they may be true and factual or not, but they are valid discussion points that are talked about here all the time.
> 
> But people are having to post to try to smooth your feathers.
> 
> I think you input has been interesting, but here you are again bringing how you are being mistrearedup, this thread is not about you, get over yourself.
> 
> Anon, Ask her about the baby!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I did, she said she was upset when she first found out. It's wasn't planned, but right after that she accepted it as the best thing she could have done and has no regret.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

Anon,
Is there any chance at all that the baby might not be yours?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anonymously

Decorum said:


> Anon,
> Is there any chance at all that the baby might not be yours?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Zero chance, that much I know
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Decorum

Well thats a relief. Did you have some testing done already?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## justforfun1222

My question is do you really want to know if there was an affair? I don't snoop through any of my husbands things because to be honest, I really don't want to know, I figure if there is someone out there better than me and he thinks he is better off then good luck to him. My husband and I separated in 2009 after 7 years, I was not given a reason, I suspected some type of affair, but in the end it turns out that it was about him being able to spend money on stupid stuff.. like 4 wheeler and just his son and not have the responsibility of my kids. Anyway.. I hope this all works out for you and I am sorry you are having to go through this!


----------



## justforfun1222

BTW.. we did reconcile and have been back together for 2 years, but the can't seem to put myself all the way back into the marriage, sometimes when a person damages it that badly, there is no real fixing it. I am now currently thinking about a divorce myself!


----------



## Tony55

anonymously said:


> Zero chance, that much I know


Same thing my brother thought, zero chance, then when his son was 10, wife admitted to an affair, turned out it wasn't his son. Totally devastated him. I sure hope that's not the case here. I suppose every stone needs to be turned.

T


----------



## anonymously

Decorum said:


> Well thats a relief. Did you have some testing done already?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unecessary. There's no question and no mistaking that one
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Fledgling

Decorum said:


> Fledging,
> 
> "But I have had my opinions called stupid, uninformed, vacuous, and incoherent, a cheater's lawyer and a rug sweeper, and most recently a whiner,"
> 
> As I said I skimmed, and I did not see the "stupid", or the "lawyer" comment, the first is a personal insult, the second questions your motives. I would agree that they are out of line, the others are valid statements, they may be true and factual or not, but they are valid discussion points that are talked about here all the time.
> 
> But people are having to post to try to smooth your feathers.
> 
> I think you input has been interesting, but here you are again, bringing up how you are being mistreared, this thread is not about you, get over yourself.
> 
> Anon, Ask her about the baby!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then let it go already. 



anonymously said:


> I did, she said she was upset when she first found out. It's wasn't planned, but right after that she accepted it as the best thing she could have done and has no regret.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It seems like you guys really discussed the baby situation together as a couple. So you were talking back then. You discussed if you wanted to keep the baby and even now she has no regrets about having your child. (why would she? I'm sure your daughter is amazing!) So I don't think it goes as far back as she is saying it does. 

And about the personality thing. She knows you better than we do. You can appear pretty hostile here (only natural) but I imagine she, knowing you better, can pick up on more subtle behaviours and is reacting to those. So while it's great that you are sparing her your full wrath she will be able to see differences in you that you may not be aware of.


----------



## btdt

anonymously said:


> Fledgling , this goes out to you. I never said anything about a private investigator. That's pointless my state is no fault, there is no upper hand in this. Did I snoop for my own satisfaction you bet your but I did. Who wouldn't? I did not find anything so I have trust there is no OM. As far as her, she has asked to for nothing. She never even came clean about how she feels toward me. Just pretended and deceived me into believing I had a wife who loved me. So riddle me this...how do you you listen to someone who isn't speaking? How do you change for someone who never asks? What do you change? And what exactly am I supposed to change? Should I just have guessed at some point that there is something about me that needs changing? You can change what you don't know. *Tonight she tells me she doesn't even like anything about my personality.* Oh really? Well then wtf am I subjecting myself to your stabbing me in heart for? I really want to ask her if she is retarded? She's definitely bat crap crazy. I'm a human being and any human being can only take so much crap. This is the equivalent of taking a crap and then sticking my head in the toilet while I flush.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Think about the implications of the bolded sentence above, assuming it represents her true feelings. She's not saying that she doesn't like your behavior or how you treat her. She's saying that she doesn't like you for who you are as a person. You can change your behavior or how you treat her, but you can't change who you are.

In your previous post, you indicated that one of her expectations of the MC is to figure out why she isn't in love with you. There may not not be much marriage counseling that can occur until that question is answered. And there may not be much that can be accomplished depending on the answer.

For now, you should use the MC as a means of expressing your hurts and grievences, to explore the possibilities of what may be happening with you wife, and to formulate a course of action depending on your wife's ultimate answer. It may be more IC than MC for a while.

The onus should be on your wife to resolve her questions. Until she does this, I think that you need to convey a healthy degree of skepticism (to your wife and the MC) about the recoverability of the marriage and to create a sense of urgency to get these questions resolved.


----------



## Tony55

anonymously said:


> I did, she said she was upset when she first found out. It's wasn't planned, but right after that she accepted it as the best thing she could have done and has no regret.


But according to your timeline, her loss of love for you came around this same time period. Have you pointed that out to her? Asked her if she can pinpoint when she fell out of love? before, during, or after the baby?

It's a simple question: *Have you asked her that, yes or no?*

T


----------



## Tony55

btdt said:


> Think about the implications of the bolded sentence above, assuming it represents her true feelings. She's not saying that she doesn't like your behavior or how you treat her. She's saying that she doesn't like you for who you are as a person. You can change your behavior or how you treat her, but you can't change who you are.


You're absolutely correct in this. I can tell you that if it was me, if my wife told me all this, the marriage would end that moment, I wouldn't acknowledge her presence, I wouldn't speak to her beyond child related matters.* I would erase her from my life, there'd be no discussion, no counseling, no second guessing. Over. Period.*

T


----------



## Emerald

anonymously said:


> I really want to ask her if she is retarded? She's definitely bat crap crazy.


I mean no disrspect, but is there a possibility of a mental illness?

Depression? possibly blaming you for her unhappiness not realizing she is ill?

Bipolar? "bat crap crazy"


----------



## Fledgling

btdt said:


> Think about the implications of the bolded sentence above, assuming it represents her true feelings. She's not saying that she doesn't like your behavior or how you treat her. She's saying that she doesn't like you for who you are as a person. You can change your behavior or how you treat her, but you can't change who you are.
> 
> In your previous post, you indicated that one of her expectations of the MC is to figure out why she isn't in love with you. There may not not be much marriage counseling that can occur until that question is answered. And there may not be much that can be accomplished depending on the answer.
> 
> *For now, you should use the MC as a means of expressing your hurts and grievences, to explore the possibilities of what may be happening with you wife, and to formulate a course of action depending on your wife's ultimate answer. It may be more IC than MC for a while.*
> 
> The onus should be on your wife to resolve her questions. Until she does this, I think that you need to convey a healthy degree of skepticism (to your wife and the MC) about the recoverability of the marriage and to create a sense of urgency to get these questions resolved.


If nothing else, I agree with the bolded. It may indeed be more IC than MC. TBH, IC is probably necessary one way or the other.


----------



## anonymously

Emerald said:


> I mean no disrspect, but is there a possibility of a mental illness?
> 
> Depression? possibly blaming you for her unhappiness not realizing she is ill?
> 
> Bipolar? "bat crap crazy"


I have not ruled any of that out at all. Of course there is no way to tell a mentally ill person who is in denial that they are mentally ill. 

There are many facets of her past life that have not been dealt with. Adandonment issues from childhood, dishonest men, cheating men etc...There have been signs of some of thos old feelings coming back for her since this all began. It could be that the fear of those things has caused a huge wall to go up for her as a means of defense mechanism. She has done that before, but that was a very different circumstance with respect to who she was with. In that case, I can relate to how and why and think it was necassary for her well being. But I am not that guy, we arent even on the same planet in comparison. 

I'm sure that its not all that, but I do think that it plays a big role. Getting her to come to that or any other realization is a completely different story. That requires some self actualization which is not something she is ready to do right now based on her words and behaviors. I am hoping that through the counceling and therapy some of that comes out in a way that she can see it and relate to it. I know that I definately dont have the skills to deal with or teach her how to deal with that. Particularly since I have never experienced those things. 

Maybe when that does surface, a light bulb can go off and she will perhaps see that its not all about me and the some or many of her issues are hers to own and deal with as we go on this journey together. When that happens I will be there, assuming that she wants me there. 

The frustration is to get to that point. It's just incredibley hard to swallow at this point and there is much anger on my end which I am trying to show her. My other fear is that keeping that anger hidden as much as possible may lead to my own resentment of her down the road and so the viscious cycle will then continue.


----------



## btdt

anonymously said:


> I have not ruled any of that out at all. Of course there is no way to tell a mentally ill person who is in denial that they are mentally ill.
> 
> *There are many facets of her past life that have not been dealt with. Adandonment issues from childhood, dishonest men, cheating men etc...There have been signs of some of thos old feelings coming back for her since this all began. It could be that the fear of those things has caused a huge wall to go up for her as a means of defense mechanism. She has done that before, but that was a very different circumstance with respect to who she was with. In that case, I can relate to how and why and think it was necassary for her well being. But I am not that guy, we arent even on the same planet in comparison. *I'm sure that its not all that, but I do think that it plays a big role. Getting her to come to that or any other realization is a completely different story. That requires some self actualization which is not something she is ready to do right now based on her words and behaviors. I am hoping that through the counceling and therapy some of that comes out in a way that she can see it and relate to it. I know that I definately dont have the skills to deal with or teach her how to deal with that. Particularly since I have never experienced those things.
> 
> Maybe when that does surface, a light bulb can go off and she will perhaps see that its not all about me and the some or many of her issues are hers to own and deal with as we go on this journey together. When that happens I will be there, assuming that she wants me there.
> 
> The frustration is to get to that point. It's just incredibley hard to swallow at this point and there is much anger on my end which I am trying to show her. My other fear is that keeping that anger hidden as much as possible may lead to my own resentment of her down the road and so the viscious cycle will then continue.


I would say that what you identified above is the most likely culprit behind all of this. She's projecting these issues from her past onto you. So this may be more about IC with her to get to the bottom of all of this. But I definitely think MC would be beneficial for her to learn how to better communicate with you.


----------



## Fledgling

Anon, she may indeed be projecting onto you. I know you want answers, easy answers, so you can fix her/help her. Be careful not to put the burden of this onto her. Share it all equally. She wanted to leave. If you are going to force her to basically save the marriage by changing herself (which you hate that she is trying to make you take most of the blame right?) why wouldn't you just let her go? Maybe she has alot of issues from her past. One way she might have felt a sense of control was having her own business. Now you are running everything. How can you help involve her in her own business again and restoring what she thinks she has lost? It just seems to me that you are looking for ways to make her undertand her folly. An affair. Mental illness. Psychological regression. What have you. While it will ultimately be to her benefit to focus on herself she is so NOT there yet. Walk cautiously for now as you really aren't certain what the main problems are. And keep working with therapy. I was so impressed with how calm you were in your last post and I can see you are trying to be objective still. That's awesome.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

ComicBookLady said:


> Because in that instance the man is ONLY considering his own needs. He pulls a "power play" in which he is avoiding having to be vulnerable and accountable to his wife . It is a move that makes him feel powerful and in control.
> 
> But in reality, it is a solution that means you don't properly listen and understand your wife's needs and change _with_ her accordingly (women need to change too) to obtain true marital happiness.
> 
> So that, to me, is selfish. I feel like any kind of "strong moves" I've seen described here only do more damage. Power plays do not belong in a marraige.
> 
> And to be fair women do it too, it's not just men.
> 
> But then, that's just my opinion. I hope I explained that in a way that made sense!


Two thoughts:

Why do you not have a problem with her power play. Saying that you don't love your spouse and have not in five years is a powerful and hurtful as it gets. She certainly is not looking out for him or the relationship, yet why is that okay. 

Second, your full quote:



> So in that instance, of COURSE a 180 would initially get some women to stay (those women who are too scared to leave). But men, you're not making her happy. You're not fulfilling her needs as a cherished partner. You're forcing her to live with a man who was too selfish to listen to her and change WITH her for the better. It's truly truly sad to me.


lays all the blame on him. You imply that he is completely at fault because he did not fulfill her needs, is only looking out for himself and "ws too selfish to listen to her and change WITH her for the better." Yet you leave no possibility that she carries some blame. It is possible that she communicated poorly, incompletely or not at all? Could she be responsible for one or more of her issues? Could her issues be unreasonable? You post implies that he is the devil why she is a poor victim.

So again, why do you make those assumptions?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

anonymously said:


> I did, she said she was upset when she first found out. It's wasn't planned, but right after that she accepted it as the best thing she could have done and has no regret.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In view of her admitted lack of honesty, don't let it go at this.

No mother wants to admit that they resent their child or don't want them. The social stigma is devestating. So consider the possibilty that she has pushed that down, only to have it come out against you. I am not saying this is the case, only that you can't take her statements at face value at this point.


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## alte Dame

She has not been particularly forthcoming about her feelings and now you are doing almost all of the heavy lifting, trying to figure out what's motivating her, what's going on in her head. Some here think that that is correct, that you should be doing that. I don't agree for many reasons, but the simplest, most logical is that you can never really know what she is thinking.

In the final analysis, you can only be certain of what you yourself are thinking at any given time. I believe you have a right to feel anger and hurt. You are not her therapist or caretaker. You are her husband and marriage is a two-way street. She may have her justifications for her feelings, but so do you. Those are valid as well.

She's told you that she hasn't loved you for a long time and doesn't like much of anything about your personality. You don't have to dig in and prostrate yourself if you don't want to. It's not your responsibility to 'hang in there no matter what.' You can choose to do otherwise. It really is your choice.


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## ComicBookLady

Tony55 said:


> You're absolutely correct in this. I can tell you that if it was me, if my wife told me all this, the marriage would end that moment, I wouldn't acknowledge her presence, I wouldn't speak to her beyond child related matters.* I would erase her from my life, there'd be no discussion, no counseling, no second guessing. Over. Period.*
> 
> T


Of course it would be your choice to do this in your life. 

May I respectfully ask: What if your wife pulled away due to _your_ treatment of her and your lack of accountability for the pain you caused her? In that case she would say those exact same things to you. Would you still choose to cut her off, even though it's entirely within your power to fix it?


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## Tall Average Guy

ComicBookLady said:


> Of course it would be your choice to do this in your life.
> 
> May I respectfully ask: What if your wife pulled away due to _your_ treatment of her and your lack of accountability for the pain you caused her? In that case she would say those exact same things to you. Would you still choose to cut her off, even though it's entirely within your power to fix it?


Again, why the assumption that the OP has done any of those things? If it were the case you mention, then I could see working on it, though if so many years had past, there is certainly an argument that it would actually be better for the wife to letter her go. 

Yet your posts in this thread are replete with the assumption that he is the bad guy and she is the poor victim. What do you base that on?


----------



## ComicBookLady

About the whole " she doesn't even like my personality" thing.

I said the same stuff to my husband as well. At the time I didn't realize that it was years of built up pain and resentment that pushed everything down so far that I _thought_ I didn't love or even like him anymore.

But of course once he started showing accountability and care for the hurt he caused (and started to learn with me to communicate better) the love and that was previously buried came back full force.

This is a VERY real possiblity in OP's case. 

Anonymous, of course you're right to feel the hurt you feel. You're right to feel deceived. You're right to feel any way you want to. But what I am seeing emerge in you is that when you feel hurt; you instantly flip it into intense anger pointed at her. I understand, it happens to everyone. But be aware that this is especially poisonous to what you're trying to do. When you feel that intense anger at her, stop and try to recognize where that anger is really coming from and take the steps to take care of those feelings. Talk about them to the MC, a friend, your wife, here, anywhere to help take care of the root cause. When those feelings turn into anger it helps no one and only causes further damage.

Hope your day is better today, btw!


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## turnera

Of course it's possible that she feels this way. But that doesn't mean that him turning into a doormat will get her back. And that doesn't explain her utter lack of emotion and closeness for many years, not to mention lack of sex. If SHE chose to shut down, that doesn't make it his fault for not prying it out of her.

And I don't see anger in him, just sadness.


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## ComicBookLady

Tall Average Guy said:


> Again, why the assumption that the OP has done any of those things? If it were the case you mention, then I could see working on it, though if so many years had past, there is certainly an argument that it would actually be better for the wife to letter her go.
> 
> Yet your posts in this thread are replete with the assumption that he is the bad guy and she is the poor victim. What do you base that on?


My assumption's come from a lot of little things he's said over many posts that point to this (from my own patterns I've seen you could say), and like many other's here, personal experience being the wife saying and acting the same way.

You are also right that IF this is what's happening, then 5 years of detachment means there's a chance she pulled so far that it's too late to bring her back (The longer the detachment goes, the more buried the love becomes). But personally I don't believe it's too late, because she's still trying herself (by going to MC). And if there's that chance, wouldn't you want to try your hardest to see if your marriage could be saved? I feel calling it quits would be prematurely and permanently ending things because the pain is too hard to deal with (which is also understandable. Sometimes it's just too much)

Finally, I feel like a lot of people in this thread instantly place OP and his wife into "good guy/bad guy" roles. NO ONE is the bad guy here. Both sides brought things to the table that caused this situation. And both sides need to work on this if they want their marriage saved. I've only been talking about HIS side of things to be done because he's the one I'm talking to. If his wife was posting, I'd be talking about her side.

Thanks for your respectful questions. It's pleasant talking with you


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## Tall Average Guy

ComicBookLady said:


> Finally, I feel like a lot of people in this thread instantly place OP and his wife into "good guy/bad guy" roles. NO ONE is the bad guy here. Both sides brought things to the table that caused this situation. And both sides need to work on this if they want their marriage saved. I've only been talking about HIS side of things to be done because he's the one I'm talking to. If his wife was posting, I'd be talking about her side.
> 
> Thanks for your respectful questions. It's pleasant talking with you


Except that you have consitently call him the bad guy. And you have not just focused on him, but have made assumptions that she has fully explained her ponts and that he selfishly and intentionally ignored them, even in the face of directly contrary posting. It appears you are putting yourself in her shoes and assuming that she did the things you did, when there is no evidence of that.

Yes, I agree with addressing his conduct, as h is the poster here. I also have to problem, and think it is a great perspective, to provide thoughts on what she may be thinking as well as ask questions about what she may have done or said. In that way, I think you add much value here. But to assume that it is all his fault and demand no accountability from her is just as bad.


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## Fledgling

As humans we often act certain ways because we THINK we know something, when in actuality we don't, and some instances can't know.

For instance according to OP's first post he only has one fact. They have had a decreased sex life. 

Everything else, including why they have had a decreased sex life, is pure assumption. He believes he is a great guy. He even says that he believes he is strong, caring, dutiful, not constricting etc etc etc. I am sure that he has been trying really hard for his whole marriage to be all these things. He wants to be all these things for her. And that is great,, it really is. That doesn't mean it's an accurate representation of their lives.

SHE makes the assumption that she doesn't love him. When we can't give a concret answer on something it almost invariably means that we aren't positive about anything. It is not a fact that she doesn't love him and further it isn't even an established fact that she hasn't loved him. Her own actions are not even consistent enough to say that she doesn't love him. From telling him how great he is to being the first to offer MC these are not the words of a woman who doesn't love her husband, imho.

It's a fact that he works long hours. It's a fact that he runs both businesses. It's a fact that she has stayed with their daughter at home. It's a fact that they mutually came to the decisions that led to all those things.

These are the only true varifiable facts. Every other action that has been taken has been on pure speculation from both sides. He suspects she might be having an affair or suffer from depression. She suspects that it's soley his personality driving her away (oh and btw we show our personalities through our behaviours she is not rejecting him HIM.

It might be wise, until therapy really starts settling in, to focus on the undeniable facts before going of the deep end trying to psychoanalyze one another? They aren't having alot of sex. He is working alot. Those are two facts. The odds are that they are related somehow rather than something like mental illness being the culprit. Certainly working on that issue, even if it is not the root cause, cannot hurt. It can only improve things.


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## ComicBookLady

turnera said:


> Of course it's possible that she feels this way. But that doesn't mean that him turning into a doormat will get her back. And that doesn't explain her utter lack of emotion and closeness for many years, not to mention lack of sex. If SHE chose to shut down, that doesn't make it his fault for not prying it out of her.
> 
> And I don't see anger in him, just sadness.


I understand what you are saying, and see how you could see the situation that way.

I would hope that "Doormat" and "doing whatever necessary to heal a marriage in a way that's makes BOTH people happy" would not be confused. I feel like nothing but pride and resentment would stop someone from going down an available path to heal a marriage in a mutually beneficial way.

I would also like to say she most likely didn't CHOOSE to pull away (again assuming my theory is actually what's happening). It just happened to her. She probably spent a good many years not knowing what the hell was going on and tried to fix it on her own. She probably made her own mistakes during that time in not approaching OP in the way he needed to hear her. But she didn't CHOOSE to lose her feelings.

And you're right that OP has suffered in his own ways from those years. And he is absolutely right to feel what he feels from it, and it all needs to be dealt with the same as hers. It's his choice as well on if HE is too hurt to continue trying.

The anger I see are the pointed comments I see lashed at his wife. Like calling her retarded, usually following saying something happened or something was said that hurt him. I see the sadness turn to anger just in those posts. Again I'm not judging him, I've done that exact thing. But anger only causes more damage.


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## Tony55

There are still some important unknowns for us:

Did she feel love the first 5 years of marriage?
If so, does she see the coincidental timing in love loss and child birth?
What is the difference in age between you two?

I know you're going through a lot of emotional turmoil right now and might have overlooked these questions, but they're important, can you answer them?

T


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## ComicBookLady

Tall Average Guy said:


> Except that you have consitently call him the bad guy. And you have not just focused on him, but have made assumptions that she has fully explained her ponts and that he selfishly and intentionally ignored them, even in the face of directly contrary posting. It appears you are putting yourself in her shoes and assuming that she did the things you did, when there is no evidence of that.
> 
> Yes, I agree with addressing his conduct, as h is the poster here. I also have to problem, and think it is a great perspective, to provide thoughts on what she may be thinking as well as ask questions about what she may have done or said. In that way, I think you add much value here. But to assume that it is all his fault and demand no accountability from her is just as bad.


I can understand you felt like I painted him a bad guy, and I am sorry if I ever said anything that gave that impression. I do not think he's a bad guy. I do not feel he _intentionally_ didn't listen to her. I think both people have done things unintentionally to lead to this and both have work to do. 

You are also right some of what I'm saying is from putting myself into her shoes and making assumptions from that. I've done this because we only have the account of HIS side so far. We do not have hers. Due to various things he's said that's mirrored what happened in my marriage I felt I may offer up some perspective from her side that may help. 

Of course I could be wrong about all of it, but I cannot ignore what I see happening from everything he's said. And IF in OP's case this is what's happening, then it would be a shame to see him let go of a marriage that still has hope.

I'd be happy to list some things she could have done, and could do now to help (again assuming things are the way I think they are). But they would be much larger assumptions because I have not heard her side and her detailed descriptions of what happened. Also because of the pain he's dealing with right now, I'm afraid OP will hold out from his side until he sees her do these things, which is hurtful to this situation. Each person should strive to be their best even it the other person isn't.


----------



## ComicBookLady

> Two thoughts:
> 
> Why do you not have a problem with her power play. Saying that you don't love your spouse and have not in five years is a powerful and hurtful as it gets. She certainly is not looking out for him or the relationship, yet why is that okay.


Oops! Missed one! I feel like I'm talking WAY too much and cluttering up the thread. But I'll try and help clarify if it helps and I appreciate the conversation.  

I do not feel when a woman first comes to her husband with her concerns it's a power play (OR if a man comes to a woman with his feelings). A man (or woman) pulling something like a 180 in retribution IS a power play in my mind. He's choosing to shove her concerns aside and not face the situation at hand. Instead he pulls a fully planned "move" to put the ball back in her court and not have to deal with the real issues. That to me feels selfish (and sorry if that hurts any feelings, it's just MY opinion)




> lays all the blame on him. You imply that he is completely at fault because he did not fulfill her needs, is only looking out for himself and "ws too selfish to listen to her and change WITH her for the better." Yet you leave no possibility that she carries some blame. It is possible that she communicated poorly, incompletely or not at all? Could she be responsible for one or more of her issues? Could her issues be unreasonable? You post implies that he is the devil why she is a poor victim.
> 
> So again, why do you make those assumptions?


To clarify, I was not speaking of the the _root problem_. That would NOT be entirely his fault. I am speaking about the instance when he decides to pull a "power move" in retribution .

As to whatever the_ root _problem is, you are entirely correct that she could have done any number of those things. She would be just one of two victims to a series of complications (caused by both people) that led them to this place. 

In the instance of the Power Move, I feel the man is making her the victim, as the choices he give her are between two situations in which neither one her feelings or concerns were taken care of, and he escapes having to deal with her difficult emotions.


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## anonymously

turnera said:


> Of course it's possible that she feels this way. But that doesn't mean that him turning into a doormat will get her back. And that doesn't explain her utter lack of emotion and closeness for many years, not to mention lack of sex. If SHE chose to shut down, that doesn't make it his fault for not prying it out of her.
> 
> And I don't see anger in him, just sadness.


You hit the nail right on the head. While I may be angry at times for the situation I find myself in the overwhelming feeling and emotion is utter and complete sadness. 
And for who it's worth I'm finding other places than directly at her to let the anger out. Lashing out at her is not in the best interest of our marriage right now. Not there haven't been moments, I'm only human but they have been very limited and short lived
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonymously

Tony55 said:


> There are still some important unknowns for us:
> 
> Did she feel love the first 5 years of marriage?
> If so, does she see the coincidental timing in love loss and child birth?
> What is the difference in age between you two?
> 
> I know you're going through a lot of emotional turmoil right now and might have overlooked these questions, but they're important, can you answer them?
> 
> T


Yes she did feel love for the first 5 years. Intense love according to her

When we first found out about the child her expectation which I was in agreement with was that we would share the load of having a baby. Afterwards she decided that she wanted to stay home, the expectation changed and went along with it thinking I was being the good husband. Because of this, I had to work twice as hard/much. Of course I did not have the same time anymore and therefore wasnt as much help as what her initial expectations were. She seems to resent that among other little things which in her mind are big. Yet there was no way for me to have been both things or have done both. I can only be what I am asked to be and am physically capable of being based on what I am asked to do. I dont regret putting in 16 hour days when it was a necassary. You do what you have to in life. But it seems she does, even though it could not have possibly been any different. 

We are only a year apart


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## Tall Average Guy

ComicBookLady said:


> I can understand you felt like I painted him a bad guy, and I am sorry if I ever said anything that gave that impression. I do not think he's a bad guy. I do not feel he _intentionally_ didn't listen to her. I think both people have done things unintentionally to lead to this and both have work to do.


Sorry, but you said he selfishly refused to listen to her to work WITH her to better their life. That is not my impression, those are your words.



> You are also right some of what I'm saying is from putting myself into her shoes and making assumptions from that. I've done this because we only have the account of HIS side so far. We do not have hers. Due to various things he's said that's mirrored what happened in my marriage I felt I may offer up some perspective from her side that may help.


I do think that perspective is useful and hope you continue to offer it. I do see a difference between offering a perspective based on things she might be thinking, and critizing him because of what he allegedly did to offend her.



> Of course I could be wrong about all of it, but I cannot ignore what I see happening from everything he's said. And IF in OP's case this is what's happening, then it would be a shame to see him let go of a marriage that still has hope.
> 
> I'd be happy to list some things she could have done, and could do now to help (again assuming things are the way I think they are). But they would be much larger assumptions because I have not heard her side and her detailed descriptions of what happened. Also because of the pain he's dealing with right now, I'm afraid OP will hold out from his side until he sees her do these things, which is hurtful to this situation. Each person should strive to be their best even it the other person isn't.


I don't think they would be any bigger than the assumptions that you have made so far. Nonetheless, they may well be useful so that the OP can work with his wife if they chose to try to fix their marriage.

One of the best things I think a couple can do is to hold their spouse accountable. To often, one spouse takes the blame and is expected to do all the work to heal the resentment of the other, while that other sits back and does nothing. That creates a lopsided relationship that is all to often doomed. Providing suggestions on what he can do, as well as what he should expect from her, is very valuable.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

anonymously said:


> And for who it's worth I'm finding other places than directly at her to let the anger out. Lashing out at her is not in the best interest of our marriage right now. Not there haven't been moments, I'm only human but they have been very limited and short lived
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exercise can be a great way to manage anger and stress. Plus it is good for you.


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## ComicBookLady

> Sorry, but you said he selfishly refused to listen to her to work WITH her to better their life. That is not my impression, those are your words.


AH! I see now. I think there was a miscommunication there. I was not talking about OP in that original post. I was talking about people who use "Power Moves" in general. OP hasn't done a power move. I saw many who wanted him too, so I gave my opinion on it.

I myself got confused in following posts because (in my eyes) you were relating that post to OP, and I couldn't understand why and just kept answering your quesitons. Hope that made sense!

Apologies if I said anything that sounds like I was relating OP to using Power Moves!



> I do think that perspective is useful and hope you continue to offer it. I do see a difference between offering a perspective based on things she might be thinking, and critizing him because of what he allegedly did to offend her.


Thank you! And once again, if you are talking about the whole "power move" thing, that was not directed at OP. If you felt like I overly criticized him elsewhere, let me know what it was so I can analyze it (it's what I do  ) and I'll tell you what I _really_ meant to say. ) 



> Providing suggestions on what he can do, as well as what he should expect from her, is very valuable.


If you really think it will help (and if OP wants it) the next time I can get a solid chunk of time to write it all down, I will. I'm not sure it will all make sense because it will be from a woman's viewpoint, but I'll try. And beware I'll be assuming everyone's faces off!


----------



## ComicBookLady

anonymously said:


> Yes she did feel love for the first 5 years. Intense love according to her
> 
> When we first found out about the child her expectation which I was in agreement with was that we would share the load of having a baby. Afterwards she decided that she wanted to stay home, the expectation changed and went along with it thinking I was being the good husband. Because of this, I had to work twice as hard/much. Of course I did not have the same time anymore and therefore wasnt as much help as what her initial expectations were. She seems to resent that among other little things which in her mind are big. Yet there was no way for me to have been both things or have done both. I can only be what I am asked to be and am physically capable of being based on what I am asked to do. I dont regret putting in 16 hour days when it was a necassary. You do what you have to in life. But it seems she does, even though it could not have possibly been any different.
> 
> We are only a year apart


This is all so valuable! Good job finding that all out!  Sounds like she's slowly going from completely close up to letting things out. That is GREAT.

Are there any more details from her you can share? More details on what exactly she had an issue with the most? Did she say anything about how those things made her _feel_?

Can you ask her specifically if she's tried to reach you with those concerns before and her POV on what it was like to reach out to you?


----------



## Fledgling

The thread is so long but wasn't there a time when she came to you to discuss things and you tried to assure her that this was necessary and would only be temporary? She was the one to bring up staying home and you went along with it because you had no opinion on the matter either way? Or was it a decision that you came to together with both of you thinking it was in the best interest of your child?

Either way, maybe she was realizing that staying home wasn't what she thought it would be. Is it okay with you if she changes her mind? Did you feel like she was "backing out" of her agreement to stay home and raise the baby? 

Also, I know you don't regret doing what you needed to do but...didn't you miss her and the baby? When you are working you get validation from work and the people around you. Trust me when I say that when you stay at home with no one but a toddler you get lonely really fast and you don't get alot of validation. And then the one person she counted on giving her validation simply, through no fault of his own, wasn't there to give her validation.

ComicBookLady, you are doing amuch better job of explaining things than I am!


----------



## Tony55

anonymously said:


> Afterwards she decided that she wanted to stay home... Because of this, I had to work twice as hard/much... therefore wasn't as much help as what her initial expectations were. She seems to resent that among other little things which in her mind are big.


Ok, if what you said in this post is 100% true, that she decided to stay home, and that you worked twice as hard, and that she resents your inability to help her out with the baby, if this is true, then she *must know* that this is true, what does she say about this when you present it the way you did here? Does she identify this time period as the point in which her love for you diminishes? Does she recognize the absurdity of such resentment?

You said, _"She seems to resent that *among other little things* which in her mind *are big*."_, what other things?

T


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## ComicBookLady

Fledgling said:


> Also, I know you don't regret doing what you needed to do but...didn't you miss her and the baby? When you are working you get validation from work and the people around you. Trust me when I say that when you stay at home with no one but a toddler you get lonely really fast and you don't get alot of validation. And then the one person she counted on giving her validation simply, through no fault of his own, wasn't there to give her validation.
> 
> ComicBookLady, you are doing amuch better job of explaining things than I am!


Thank you! That is nice to hear. I'm trying! I was starting to feel like a donkey flapping it's gums at people and concerned I wasn't making sense 

The point you made about feeling unfulfilled staying at home is quite valid and I'm sure adds to this scenario. Especially as she was formerly a working woman. I'm bet she misses it to some degree.

I was in the same scenario, and you really do miss working. You miss the bettering of yourself in your field. Husband gone all the time is hard. And having a toddler being the only person to provide validation can be difficult!  I mean, I love potty training and doing dishes as much as the next lady, but sometimes I find myself needing more than just being a mother.

EDITING FOR WHAT I HOPE IS CLARITY: And changed wording. I LOVE my kids and everything that comes along with raising them. Most worthwhile thing in the world. Yet I also love work. They are fulfilling in different ways, and they fulfill different areas for me. I also appreciate my husband. The above was all meant as a light-hearted statement. SO THERE!


----------



## Tony55

ComicBookLady said:


> Thank you! That is nice to hear. I'm trying! I was starting to feel like a donkey flapping it's gums at people and concerned I wasn't making sense
> 
> The point you made about feeling unfulfilled staying at home is quite valid and I'm sure adds to this scenario. Especially as she was formerly a working woman. I'm bet she misses it.
> 
> I was in the same scenario, and you really do miss working. You miss the bettering of yourself in your field. Husband gone all the time sucks. And having a toddler being the only person to provide validation just doesn't cut it!  I mean, I love potty training and doing dishes as much as the next lady, but doesn't do much in the emotional needs department.


*So much for motherhood.*

This line of thinking really rubbed me the wrong way, I'm sorry Comicbooklady, maybe I'm just too traditional. It seems men are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Congratulations Anon, for being a hard working man.

And people wonder why so many American men go outside of the U.S. to find traditional wives.

Thank goodness for immigration.

T


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## alte Dame

Oy vey, Tony. I love your posts, but cut us a little slack here. 

I'm an American wife and mother, have raised two great kids and managed my work just fine. I loved all my time with my children and consider it the best thing I've ever done. Both kids are respectful, kind, smart, educated people & I'm very proud of them. You don't have to be old school to be a good, loving mother and wife. I know somewhere in that wise head of yours that you know that, no?

(And this isn't meant to say that I'm on board with CBL's assessments - I generally disagree with her pov.)


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## anonymously

Fledgling said:


> The thread is so long but wasn't there a time when she came to you to discuss things and you tried to assure her that this was necessary and would only be temporary? She was the one to bring up staying home and you went along with it because you had no opinion on the matter either way? Or was it a decision that you came to together with both of you thinking it was in the best interest of your child?
> 
> She stayed home for 2 years then resumed work. Not because I asked her to but because she wanted to.
> 
> Either way, maybe she was realizing that staying home wasn't what she thought it would be. Is it okay with you if she changes her mind? Did you feel like she was "backing out" of her agreement to stay home and raise the baby? She went to work when she felt she was ready or wanted to.
> 
> Also, I know you don't regret doing what you needed to do but...didn't you miss her and the baby? When you are working you get validation from work and the people around you. Trust me when I say that when you stay at home with no one but a toddler you get lonely really fast and you don't get alot of validation. And then the one person she counted on giving her validation simply, through no fault of his own, wasn't there to give her validation.
> 
> I told her pretty often that I appreciated everything she was doing. She would get on me about doing more at home and I would point out what I was doing as my part and that she couldn't have it both ways. If I think back I think it was her that didn't provide me the validation not the other way around.
> 
> There seems to be many other resentments she is holding on to but they are small things. She complains that I don't do more around the house. To be honest I don't want to do certain things and never did. Even before we met and when we first met. They aren't anything big. I don't like housework so I always had a cleaning lady that would come once a week. I don't like laundry so I had that done for me as well at the same time as the house cleaning. My job is intense and my down time idea is to not do those things. If I can afford it, them why not have someone do that tasks I don't like to do? I haven't cut my own lawn in 10 years, why because I have someone do it l. It frees up more of my time to spend with family on those rare days off. Or sometimes it frees up more time for business. It cost 25 bucks to mow the lawn, and in that time one missed deal can mean over 3k in income.
> 
> She knew going in when we met I viewed certain things that way. At some point she wanted to get rid of the cleaning lady and do it herself. I didn't ask her to nor do I expect her to. I would even help out if I knew it was important to her but she didn't say anything. I would not have liked it though and would probably eventually said...just call the lady for god sakes.
> 
> I put in minimum 12 hour days, I rarely have the extra energy to do those chores. I hate them so I pay other people to do them. Is that so bad?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ComicBookLady

Tony55 said:


> *So much for motherhood.*
> 
> This line of thinking really rubbed me the wrong way, I'm sorry Comicbooklady, maybe I'm just too traditional. It seems men are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
> 
> Congratulations Anon, for being a hard working man.
> 
> And people wonder why so many American men go outside of the U.S. to find traditional wives.
> 
> Thank goodness for immigration.
> 
> T


That's okay to have your opinion.

I think you may have viewed my post from an extreme angle. I _love_ working in my field. I also _love_ being a mother. Both are fulfilling in their own way. But motherhood alone sometimes isn't enough to fulfill every need I have emotionally. Just as many people aren't fulfilled by work alone.

I think it would be interesting to start another thread based on this topic, it's interesting to how other women have balanced work and children. It would also be interesting to view what men think about it


----------



## anonymously

Oh and comicbooklady, you should know that in my job there isn't much validation it's mostly extreme stress. So it's not like those 2 years I was out doing work that gave validation. It might sounds like a sucky job but its not. I am a multi tasker to the ninth degree. I can deal with 30 fires, transactions falling apart, and the high pressure of putting them back together while people on all side are freaking out screaming. The stress rolls off my back and push ahead and push for the goal. I have zero regret for what I do, I work well under immense pressure. I also have zero regret about doing double the work when my wife needs me to. She doesn't handle stress well at all. Someone on here mentioned that woman are the multi taksers, for us it's the opposite. She can barely handle 2-3 things at once while I juggle 40 and am perfectly ok with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tony55

alte Dame said:


> Oy vey, Tony. I love your posts, but cut us a little slack here.
> 
> I'm an American wife and mother, have raised two great kids and managed my work just fine. I loved all my time with my children and consider it the best thing I've ever done. Both kids are respectful, kind, smart, educated people & I'm very proud of them. You don't have to be old school to be a good, loving mother and wife. I know somewhere in that wise head of yours that you know that, no?
> 
> (And this isn't meant to say that I'm on board with CBL's assessments - I generally disagree with her pov.)


And I certainly appreciate you and all women like you who are able to achieve a balanced family and career, I honestly do.

When I read something like this...
_"The point you made about feeling unfulfilled staying at home is quite valid and I'm sure adds to this scenario. Especially as she was formerly a working woman. I'm bet she misses it.

I was in the same scenario, and you really do miss working. You miss the bettering of yourself in your field. Husband gone all the time sucks. And having a toddler being the only person to provide validation just doesn't cut it! I mean, I love potty training and doing dishes as much as the next lady, but doesn't do much in the emotional needs department."​_...during a discussion in which the OP worked to cover both jobs, so his wife can be home with the baby, it just strikes me as wrong in so many ways.

My mother raised 5 Italian children and cleaned other peoples houses while my father worked long hours. They fought and screamed at each other, but I don't ever recall my mother telling my dad she hasn't loved him since we were born. They stayed married until the end. It's disgraceful to put such little value in motherhood, it's should be an embarrassment to woman-kind, and women need to start taking a stand on this.

Thank you, alte Dame, for taking that stand.

CBL, nothing personal, my frustration was directed at everyone who has adopted this way of thinking, including Anon's wife, not just you.

T


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## ComicBookLady

anonymously said:


> Oh and comicbooklady, you should know that in my job there isn't much validation it's mostly extreme stress. So it's not like those 2 years I was out doing work that gave validation. It might sounds like a sucky job but its not. I am a multi tasker to the ninth degree. I can deal with 30 fires, transactions falling apart, and the high pressure of putting them back together while people on all side are freaking out screaming. The stress rolls off my back and push ahead and push for the goal. I have zero regret for what I do, I work well under immense pressure. I also have zero regret about doing double the work when my wife needs me to. She doesn't handle stress well at all. Someone on here mentioned that woman are the multi taksers, for us it's the opposite. She can barely handle 2-3 things at once while I juggle 40 and am perfectly ok with it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It sounds like you are fantastic at what you do! High stress situations freak me out too and I always admired my husband's ability to handle them. I hope that in your field you get at least SOME good things out of it. It must be difficult to always be dealing with so many people blowing up all the time.  I hope you get time to unwind.

Please let me know if I'm on the right track here: I think you are feeling resentful towards your wife because you feel like she doesn't appreciate all the hard work you've done over the years. And from your POV all you get in return is a wife who doesn't love you anymore, and you feel like it was wrong for her to need anything more in the first place because of all the hard work you've done for her.


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## ComicBookLady

Tony55 said:


> CBL, nothing personal, my frustration was directed at everyone who has adopted this way of thinking, including Anon's wife, not just you.
> 
> T


S'okay!  I appreciate others feel differently.

I honestly didn't mean to open a can of worms. I'd love to hear the rest of your viewpoints in another thread. It's an interesting topic.


----------



## anonymously

ComicBookLady said:


> It sounds like you are fantastic at what you do! High stress situations freak me out too and I always admired my husband's ability to handle them. I hope that in your field you get at least SOME good things out of it. It must be difficult to always be dealing with so many people blowing up all the time.  I hope you get time to unwind.
> 
> Please let me know if I'm on the right track here: I think you are feeling resentful towards your wife because you feel like she doesn't appreciate all the hard work you've done over the years. And from your POV all you get in return is a wife who doesn't love you anymore, and you feel like it was wrong for her to need anything more in the first place because of all the hard work you've done for her.


You're close. But I'm only resentful now after her actions and what she is doing. Of course getting bomb dropped on me, I said: What are you freaking kidding me? After all I've done for you and our family? What was the point of all this hard work? I still can't answer that. Oh and it's not like she wasn't enjoying the Benz, the house and all the other things that go along with the hard work. In fact she never wanted to give any of it up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ComicBookLady

anonymously said:


> You're close. But I'm only resentful now after her actions and what she is doing. Of course getting bomb dropped on me, I said: What are you freaking kidding me? After all I've done for you and our family? What was the point of all this hard work? I still can't answer that. Oh and it's not like she wasn't enjoying the Benz, the house and all the other things that go along with the hard work. In fact she never wanted to give any of it up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're not wrong at all to feel that way. And the hurt feelings you have will have to be validated by her at some point.

If you like, I can write something similar for you in your wife's POV of the whole account (or something that I *think* may be close) for you to consider. Of course I'm making assumptions based on various informations, but maybe it could help you understand and answer some questions you've had?

If not, that's okay too . Just wanna try and help. 

Hope your night is going well!


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## anonymously

ComicBookLady said:


> You're not wrong at all to feel that way. And the hurt feelings you have will have to be validated by her at some point.
> 
> If you like, I can write something similar for you in your wife's POV of the whole account (or something that I *think* may be close) for you to consider. Of course I'm making assumptions based on various informations, but maybe it could help you understand and answer some questions you've had?
> 
> If not, that's okay too . Just wanna try and help.
> 
> Hope your night is going well!


You can try. At least someone will tell me what the heck she might be thinking lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fledgling

anonymously said:


> Fledgling said:
> 
> 
> 
> The thread is so long but wasn't there a time when she came to you to discuss things and you tried to assure her that this was necessary and would only be temporary? She was the one to bring up staying home and you went along with it because you had no opinion on the matter either way? Or was it a decision that you came to together with both of you thinking it was in the best interest of your child?
> 
> She stayed home for 2 years then resumed work. Not because I asked her to but because she wanted to.
> 
> I understand that she wanted to and you weren't forcing her. My question was did you want her to stay home or not? Did you agree with her decision or not? How important was the issue to you? What I am trying to get at is were you really conversing with one another at that time and coming to a consensus on things willingly. There's a difference between not really having an opinion on something and coming to a consensus that way or having a strong opinion on something and coming to an agreement that way.
> 
> Either way, maybe she was realizing that staying home wasn't what she thought it would be. Is it okay with you if she changes her mind? Did you feel like she was "backing out" of her agreement to stay home and raise the baby? She went to work when she felt she was ready or wanted to.
> 
> I know this is difficult for guys to understand. When women work we feel guilty about not spending enough time with the children. When we are home we wish we could contribute by working. And I am all aboard with you taking her lead but I asked how you felt about it at the time. Was it simply a matter of you not having any strong convictions about her being home or working or because you feel like she would no better about this? If you want your feelings heard now it would make sense to see if you were communicating your feelings on things earlier.
> 
> Also, I know you don't regret doing what you needed to do but...didn't you miss her and the baby? When you are working you get validation from work and the people around you. Trust me when I say that when you stay at home with no one but a toddler you get lonely really fast and you don't get alot of validation. And then the one person she counted on giving her validation simply, through no fault of his own, wasn't there to give her validation.
> 
> I told her pretty often that I appreciated everything she was doing. She would get on me about doing more at home and I would point out what I was doing as my part and that she couldn't have it both ways. If I think back I think it was her that didn't provide me the validation not the other way around.
> 
> I'm not saying that you didn't say it. I'm saying you weren't around alot. Saying things is not the same as being there to hold her or hug her at the times when she might have needed it the most. And, again, it's not like you meant to. It's just unavoidable circumstance. Validation doesn't always come from word. It can come from deed as well. Regardless she is/was trying to communicate with you. don't shut her down. If you want to understand her you have to listen with an open mind.
> 
> There seems to be many other resentments she is holding on to but they are small things. She complains that I don't do more around the house. To be honest I don't want to do certain things and never did. Even before we met and when we first met. They aren't anything big. I don't like housework so I always had a cleaning lady that would come once a week. I don't like laundry so I had that done for me as well at the same time as the house cleaning. My job is intense and my down time idea is to not do those things. If I can afford it, them why not have someone do that tasks I don't like to do? I haven't cut my own lawn in 10 years, why because I have someone do it.
> 
> Please tell my husband that, LOL! He makes enough where we can get someone to plow our driveway but I am always out there snowblowing!  Seriously, doing things around the house could be any number of things from simply trying to get you to spend more time at home to seeing it as a way to see if you really are paying attention to her to judging how much you have invested emotionally into the home you have together.
> 
> It frees up more of my time to spend with family on those rare days off. Or sometimes it frees up more time for business. It cost 25 bucks to mow the lawn, and in that time one missed deal can mean over 3k in income.
> 
> She knew going in when we met I viewed certain things that way. At some point she wanted to get rid of the cleaning lady and do it herself. I didn't ask her to nor do I expect her to. I would even help out if I knew it was important to her but she didn't say anything. I would not have liked it though and would probably eventually said...just call the lady for god sakes.
> 
> I put in minimum 12 hour days, I rarely have the extra energy to do those chores. I hate them so I pay other people to do them. Is that so bad?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> Baby's awake. Will post more later!
Click to expand...


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## anonymously

Fledgling said:


> anonymously said:
> 
> 
> 
> Baby's awake. Will post more later!
> 
> 
> 
> Many times when I went to hug her or other forms of affection she would pull away. Always blaming anything but telling me it's me.
> 
> As far staying home with the baby, yes we discussed it. And yes I was all for her staying home and bonding with the baby, I think the first few years of bonding between mother and baby are very important and we had that ability so why not do just that. Particularly since that is what she wanted. Before the baby was born she thought she would return to work quick. I asked her to think that through but it didn't click until the baby was born. As soon as she was her thought on immediately changed and I was all for it. I didn't want our baby staying with a stranger since neither of us have family that live close by.
> 
> As far knowing anything about how she really felt I don't. She hid her true feelings toward me the entire time. Which means she hid many other feelings as well. Maybe I will get all the truth and maybe I won't. Right now how would I know where the truth begins and the lie ends? She has betrayed my trust and at some point if she wants it to work she will have to address that somehow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


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## Decorum

Anon,
I seem to be the long shot caller here, but some of this just does not add up.

When was the last time she has had her overall health assessed by a doctor?
Blood tests, T3,T4, etc? Has she lost weigh recently, changes in sleep,
Serotonin, etc.

Ladies often resent this line of thought but I want to put it out there.

One more thing, there are a lot of beautiful relationship ideas being posted here. And in light of them I can say that after 25 years and raising 4 kids my wife has more reason to not love me than yours' has to not love you. Yet she has never, never given up on our relationship or given into this self serving mind set.

My respect for my wife could not be higher.

My conclusion is, you are a better man than I and my wife is a better woman than yours.

Some people are like a bad knee, they may work most of the time but you never know when they will give out. It will probably be at the worst time. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude

> I put in minimum 12 hour days, I rarely have the extra energy to do those chores. I hate them so I pay other people to do them. Is that so bad?


I used to work 84 hours a week, 7 days which drove my wife at that time to extensive lengths of frustrations and actually started the nymphomaniac madness as it was the only time we could really be intimate with each other. If I didn't at least satisfy her during our "sessions" during that time I doubt we would actually have survived that stage of our marriage.

It looks like she's not going to give you any answers but I would try to reflect on yourself as a husband and see where you went wrong. Regardless, this is pretty messed up.


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## btdt

anonymously said:


> Yes she did feel love for the first 5 years. Intense love according to her
> 
> When we first found out about the child her expectation which I was in agreement with was that we would share the load of having a baby. Afterwards she decided that she wanted to stay home, the expectation changed and went along with it thinking I was being the good husband. Because of this, I had to work twice as hard/much. Of course I did not have the same time anymore and therefore wasnt as much help as what her initial expectations were. She seems to resent that among other little things which in her mind are big. Yet there was no way for me to have been both things or have done both. I can only be what I am asked to be and am physically capable of being based on what I am asked to do. I dont regret putting in 16 hour days when it was a necassary. You do what you have to in life. But it seems she does, even though it could not have possibly been any different.
> 
> 
> 
> We are only a year apart


Working 16 hour days is very difficult on a relationship. But it sounds like you made a reasonable adjustment that probably allowed you to see your wife more often than most spouses do since you worked together.

I don't think that most women would have reacted to your circumstances in the way your wife has done. But for someone with severe abandonment issues, she may have perceived the 16 hour days and some of these other seemingly minor issues as a form of abandonment.

She has probably had a deep seated fear from the beginning of your relationship that you would eventually leave her. These fears were probably on the back burner during the honeymoon phase of the marriage. But as the honeymoon phase wore off and the daily realty set in, her fears likely reemerged. For her being at home with a small child with you gone all the time probably felt like abandonment.

In her therapy she's really going to have to deal with these abandonment issues and the defense mechanism that she appears to have set up of shutting you out of her life. The bottom line is that her feelings for you must change if this marriage is going to survive. You can be supportive of her treatment and do your best to reassure her that you are in it for the long haul if she is willing to change, but you can't change her feelings for you. Only she can do that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## btdt

Another question that you may need to address is are you a work-alcoholic? A work-alcoholic husband and a wife with abandonment issues is a difficult combination for a marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tony55

btdt said:


> ...but you can't change her feelings for you. Only she can do that.


*He most certainly can change her feelings about him, but it requires removing himself from the equation.*

We already know that she dragged her feet on this for 5 years. We also know that for some reason things came to a head 8 days ago, in which she stated two very important things:

She doesn't love him.
She want's a divorce.

These are profound statements, and put into the context of what we know so far, the OP's quickest way to resolution is to remove himself from her life, completely, break all contact other than child related.

This woman has been slowly building contempt for the OP over the years, justified or not, she feels extreme disdain for him, so much so that she even stated she didn't like his personality. Regardless of what her reasons are, she will not get over this long held, near revulsion for her husband as long as he's a part of her day to day life, it just isn't going to happen.

The OP, for his own mental health, should remove himself from this demeaning, demoralizing, and obviously deteriorating relationship. By doing so he puts himself in a stronger psychological position and can begin the process of coming to terms with what she put him through. Additionally, he gets the added bonus of potentially snapping her out of her selfishness and self pity, and MAYBE cause her to realize what she's lost. That's his best shot of turning this around, anything less and he'll continue to suffer until she finally walks away from the marriage, and she WILL do this, I don't doubt it for a minute.

This marriage was dead the moment she said those two things, the only shot at resuscitating was/is to shock it back to life, and that's done with immediate, extreme measures, delivered with confidence and determination.

T


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## Hopefull363

Dear Anon,

I'm so sorry for what you are going through and how you feel. I can understand and commiserate. I've been with my husband for 15 years. For the last 5 we've both been disconnected. We have two children. About a year and a half ago I opened my eyes and realized the disconnect. Did some soul searching and realized I wanted to reconnect. While I was trying to open up communication between us I got the ILYBINILWY speech. I have not had any affairs EA or PA. As far as I can tell he hasn't either. I've asked checked ect. We were both at fault for the distance in our marriage. Yet I am the only one doing the heavy lifting and trying to get it back.

I've read books, been on this site and we've gone to about 6 marriage counseling sessions. After a year of me trying to reconnect by admitting my faults and mistakes in the marriage, apologizing for them and changing them. My husband is still just there. I also brought the sex back to the marriage. Our sex life for the past year has been 3 - 6 times a week. 80% initiated by me.

I love my husband and I don't think I'll ever be able to give up hope, but I've given myself a time frame now. I can't keep giving without receiving. I can't keep feeling lonely while I lie in the bed next to my husband. I can't keep waking up in the morning with the sadness in my heart. I need emotional intimacy along with the physical. Apparently he is happy with the way things are. There is no toughing unless it's sexual. I need hugs, cuddles, ect. He has another year. That's when we will have to leave the rental we are in. I'm withdrawing myself emotionally during that time. (I am keeping the sex if he's willing because that is awesome!) If he has an epiphany during that time then I am there to work with him. If not then I guess we both will learn what life is like without each other. I really wish you more luck than what I am having. I feel like you are writing my feelings in your posts. Sometimes angry, sometimes sad and sometimes just there. 

I hope one day he will be able to open up to me emotionally again. He will have to admit to his mistakes in the marriage and work on fixing them. Just like I have been. I can only work on myself. I can't do his work for him. I hope your wife works on herself. In the mean time just work on yourself and admit your faults. You can't do her work for her. I really wish you the best and happiness.


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## ComicBookLady

Anonymous, PLEASE read this article. This sounds EXACTLY what's happening in your marriage, and may help you see your wife's POV 

I was going to write another post from your wife's POV but decided that a woman trying to explain to a man what a woman feels and needs might be over my capabilities (because we're a complex bunch  ), so I'll try to find some things to show you that'll explain it better than I can.

Also, please read Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus and give it a try. It's well known to help the opposite sex understand the other. It can give you some valuable tools to help your wife (and you)


----------



## Tall Average Guy

alte Dame said:


> Oy vey, Tony. I love your posts, but cut us a little slack here.
> 
> I'm an American wife and mother, have raised two great kids and managed my work just fine. I loved all my time with my children and consider it the best thing I've ever done. Both kids are respectful, kind, smart, educated people & I'm very proud of them. You don't have to be old school to be a good, loving mother and wife. I know somewhere in that wise head of yours that you know that, no?
> 
> (And this isn't meant to say that I'm on board with CBL's assessments - I generally disagree with her pov.)


I suspect Tony's frustration (and mine certainly) is that after a joint discussion and decision, the wife decides it is not working for her. Rather than raise that it is not working, she withdraws and grows resentful, blows everything up by saying she does not love him and has not for five years, and yet is still portrayed as the vicitm that is not listened to and has not had her feelings validated.

My wife is a SAHM based on us making a decision together. If she came up to me today and wanted to change, I would be happy to work with her to figure something out. I love my kids but could not do what she does, so if she wanted something else, I completely get it. But if she withdrew, never said anything, then dropped that bomb on me, I am at a loss as to why anyone would say poor her, she is so misunderstood.


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## Liz_09

First and foremost let me say how sincerely sorry I am about what you are going through. I have been through this myself and it is completely heart breaking and earth shattering. 

My best advice I can give you is to let her go. Let her go, let her have her time to figure out what she wants and doesn't want. I know this is easier said then done but its a must. She may wake up and come back to you....and she may not. If she doesnt come back, as crushing as it may feel, you *will* survive. Use this time to focus on you and work on you. Do what you need to do to become a better you FOR you and for your child/children. Move on with your life.

If she comes back, go to counseling. Individually and as a couple. Learn again what each other wants, desires and needs are. When you learn what those things are, work on it. Work on what you need to do to be the husband she wants and needs. COMMUNICATE and most of all listen and hear what she says. It will be hard work, but if you love each other, it will be well worth it. 

My husband and I found our way back to each other and we did the above things. Do we have the perfect marriage? No. Are we perfect? No. We never will be, nobody is. But we are much stronger and we continue to work on our marriage and on ourselves so we can be the best we can be for ourselves and for each other. Yes we do still fall short, but we fall together. 

I pray for you and your marriage and just know that no matter what the outcome is - you will be alright.


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## Tall Average Guy

Tony55;1434622[LIST=1 said:


> [*]She doesn't love him.
> [*]She want's a divorce.
> [/LIST]


I do want to say that one thing I don't think some posters seem to understand is that these statements, coupled with her stating that she has been lying for the past five years and that she does not even like his personality, are dang near kill shots to a relationship in a man's eyes. What a women sees as a cry for help a man sees as a death blow. There is not much to work with or salvage.

So while it is great to say he should be the better person or what not, that is far easier said than done.


----------



## Tony55

Tall Average Guy said:


> I do want to say that one thing I don't think some posters seem to understand is that these statements, coupled with her stating that she has been lying for the past five years and that she does not even like his personality, are dang near kill shots to a relationship in a man's eyes. What a women sees as a cry for help a man sees as a death blow. There is not much to work with or salvage.
> 
> So while it is great to say he should be the better person or what not, that is far easier said than done.


Correct, there is no recovering from this. If I told a woman I didn't love her, and wanted a divorce, and that I didn't even like her personality... how would that woman EVER feel good about "Us" again? How could she ever forget that? Wouldn't she feel demoralized and insecure? And if I wanted to put the cherry on top, I'd add, _"and I haven't for 5 years"_. That ought to do the trick, if the rest didn't. If she was under the same roof the next morning, I'd be very, very surprised.

T


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## ComicBookLady

Tony55 said:


> Correct, there is no recovering from this. If I told a woman I didn't love her, and wanted a divorce, and that I didn't even like her personality... how would that woman EVER feel good about "Us" again? How could she ever forget that? Wouldn't she feel demoralized and insecure? And if I wanted to put the cherry on top, I'd add, _"and I haven't for 5 years"_. That ought to do the trick, if the rest didn't. If she was under the same roof the next morning, I'd be very, very surprised.
> 
> T


You guys would be right if you choose to feel that way about it.

From my standpoint as a woman, it would be quite a kill shot as well, but not entirely impossible to fix it. It all depends on if _both_ people want to fix it or not. Everyone's right when they say if only one person wants to fix it, then it won't work. And it's not impossible to get over those resentments and hurt feelings you mentioned. It takes a lot of hard work with their partner to move past them successfully, but not impossible.


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## Trying to get through it

anonymously said:


> So we saw the new therapist, seems to be much better. Despite that she still tells that I'm not in love with you. I asked her afterwards why do you want to do this therapy. In other words what are your expectations ? She says because my family is important to me, because marriage is important to me? But I'm not in love with you, I love you as a person but I'm not in love with you. According to her, that's what she is trying to figure out in therapy. So then why am I putting myself through this agony? Why go through all this to have her tell me in 3-6 months that she is still not in love with me? I don't want to ever be with any person who is not in love with me. I'm sorry but I deserve better than that regardless of who you are.
> 
> Trying to justify a reason to not call it quits now and spare myself more of this bs. Just can't find one right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Man you can not give up yet. She still doesn't know what she wants. The fact that she is willing to go to therapy should be enough for you to hang on to a little longer. I need to send you the standees prayer. I don't know where you stand on prayer but it might be helpful. 

We went to our second couples session yesterday to. The therapist really worked her over and I would like to think that there was some progress. Mine admitted to the affairs in the first session because I had her dead to rights but she stairs the affair had nothing to do with our situation. She claim the affair is over but they still communicate. In my opinion it might not be a sexual affair but it still has an emotional component. 

In the session mine said that she was 99% sure that she didn't want us to go on. Thankfully the therapist focused in on the 1% and really drove the past and the opportunities for the future home. Hopefully that 1% will stay in her mind until the next session and we can expand it. 

My research indicated that these situations can go on for month or even into a year or more for the other party to come around. Then the question begs...how strong am I and how long can I wait. I love her, I can find forgiveness. I am standing for the healing of my marriage.


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## hookares

If staying in a marriage entails having to spend your every waking day working to support somebody who doesn't love you nor wants to be with you in any way, then it isn't worth the effort.
When it is all said and done, the person who isn't "in love" with the person who is the object of their cruelty will have had everything they wanted out of the"union" and the one who sacrificed everything to maintain it will have NOTHING.


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## Tall Average Guy

Trying to get through it said:


> Man you can not give up yet. She still doesn't know what she wants. The fact that she is willing to go to therapy should be enough for you to hang on to a little longer. I need to send you the standees prayer. I don't know where you stand on prayer but it might be helpful.
> 
> We went to our second couples session yesterday to. The therapist really worked her over and I would like to think that there was some progress. Mine admitted to the affairs in the first session because I had her dead to rights but she stairs the affair had nothing to do with our situation. She claim the affair is over but they still communicate. In my opinion it might not be a sexual affair but it still has an emotional component.
> 
> In the session mine said that she was 99% sure that she didn't want us to go on. Thankfully the therapist focused in on the 1% and really drove the past and the opportunities for the future home. Hopefully that 1% will stay in her mind until the next session and we can expand it.
> 
> My research indicated that these situations can go on for month or even into a year or more for the other party to come around. Then the question begs...how strong am I and how long can I wait. I love her, I can find forgiveness. I am standing for the healing of my marriage.


Wow! I understand your decision, and I do hope it works for you. That being said, I don't see where love requires you to be a martyr.


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## Sigma Uber Alles

Emerald said:


> I mean no disrspect, but is there a possibility of a mental illness?
> 
> Depression? possibly blaming you for her unhappiness not realizing she is ill?
> 
> Bipolar? "bat crap crazy"


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

My last one was suffering from Bipolar, the side effects from longterm SSRI use, and possibly Bordrline Personality Disorder.

(and yes, sadly, driven by all of the above... she lied, cheated, and ate cake until the end. No amount of consideration or change on my part ever had the possiblity of solving my situation.)


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## Fledgling

Anon, it sounds like you really just want to know why your wife said xyz and that you want to understand her so you can make the decision on whether or not it's worth it to stay. The truth is the choice to stay is completely yours. So you need to answer, truthfully to yourself

Do you love her? Honestly over the course of this thread I have seen you call her crazy, retarded, cruel, possibly mentally ill, possibly having an affair and have hinted heavily that she is selfish and stubborn and even somewhat materialistic. You've said that you are looking for a reason to call it quits (even though ostensibly you are mad that she wants the divorce.) So the question is do you want to work this out because you don't want to be a failure (for many highly successful men this would hurt their ego) or because you love her. If you love her it would behoove you to try to always remember what you are saving. You are saving the time when you were amazed at her ability to handle a pregnancy and give birth to your perfect daughter. You are saving all the times when she stunned you with her capacity for charity and sympathy for people. Or maybe it was her intelligence and drive that reeled you in. Her smile. Her gentleness. Her willingness to be your partner not only in heart but in business. The phyical intimacy that you once shared that make you weak in the knees.

I know that you have tried your hardest to be a good husband. I believe you. But whenever some of us here may try to explain why she views you in a certain way the immediate response is that it is ridiculous. Right now, you aren't admitting to needing to work on anything so why would you expect that she would? Right now, apparently, you as close to perfect as it is possible to be. Sometimes it is difficult to live up to perfection. Part of every marriage is continually work at compromising with your spouse and adjusting behaviours according to circumstance. It's a process that never, ever ends. So if you love her and you want to save the marriage the only thing you can do is confront some hard realities about yourself and work on them. If you don't no amount of "understanding" your wife will amount to anything. 

If you worry too much over whether or not she should be held to the same standard, the only thing that I can say is that yes, it takes to people to make a marriage work. And sometimes one spouse has to carry the load while the other flounders. But if they do when the other spouse is ready they will return the favor. We are all stuck on things being equal. It is more of a give and take. Right now she needs you to give of yourself and to acknowledge that her feelings are not retarded or bat crap crazy (just because you don't say it doesn't mean you aren't communicating it to her)

Until you are open to the fact that you have some accountability in your marriage no amount of psychoanalyzing your wife or getting you to understand her POV will make much much difference.

You are justifiably upset. If you don't think you can or don't want to move past it (which when you say you are looking for reasons to end it) then you should end it before the bitterness swallows you whole. I do wish you luck, though, and hope that MC works out for you.


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## Sigma Uber Alles

anonymously said:


> You're close. But I'm only resentful now after her actions and what she is doing. Of course getting bomb dropped on me, I said: What are you freaking kidding me? After all I've done for you and our family? What was the point of all this hard work? I still can't answer that. Oh and it's not like she wasn't enjoying the Benz, the house and all the other things that go along with the hard work. In fact she never wanted to give any of it up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Nothing makes sense... does it ?*:banghead:


That's because she's banging the pool boy. :FIREdevil:
(or lawn boy or whoever... They never admit it and some hide their tracks quite well. Irrational behavior is a *red flag*.)


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## ComicBookLady

Fledgling said:


> Anon, it sounds like you really just want to know why your wife said xyz and that you want to understand her so you can make the decision on whether or not it's worth it to stay. The truth is the choice to stay is completely yours. So you need to answer, truthfully to yourself
> 
> Do you love her? Honestly over the course of this thread I have seen you call her crazy, retarded, cruel, possibly mentally ill, possibly having an affair and have hinted heavily that she is selfish and stubborn and even somewhat materialistic. You've said that you are looking for a reason to call it quits (even though ostensibly you are mad that she wants the divorce.) So the question is do you want to work this out because you don't want to be a failure (for many highly successful men this would hurt their ego) or because you love her. If you love her it would behoove you to try to always remember what you are saving. You are saving the time when you were amazed at her ability to handle a pregnancy and give birth to your perfect daughter. You are saving all the times when she stunned you with her capacity for charity and sympathy for people. Or maybe it was her intelligence and drive that reeled you in. Her smile. Her gentleness. Her willingness to be your partner not only in heart but in business. The phyical intimacy that you once shared that make you weak in the knees.
> 
> I know that you have tried your hardest to be a good husband. I believe you. But whenever some of us here may try to explain why she views you in a certain way the immediate response is that it is ridiculous. Right now, you aren't admitting to needing to work on anything so why would you expect that she would? Right now, apparently, you as close to perfect as it is possible to be. Sometimes it is difficult to live up to perfection. Part of every marriage is continually work at compromising with your spouse and adjusting behaviours according to circumstance. It's a process that never, ever ends. So if you love her and you want to save the marriage the only thing you can do is confront some hard realities about yourself and work on them. If you don't no amount of "understanding" your wife will amount to anything.
> 
> If you worry too much over whether or not she should be held to the same standard, the only thing that I can say is that yes, it takes to people to make a marriage work. And sometimes one spouse has to carry the load while the other flounders. But if they do when the other spouse is ready they will return the favor. We are all stuck on things being equal. It is more of a give and take. Right now she needs you to give of yourself and to acknowledge that her feelings are not retarded or bat crap crazy (just because you don't say it doesn't mean you aren't communicating it to her)
> 
> Until you are open to the fact that you have some accountability in your marriage no amount of psychoanalyzing your wife or getting you to understand her POV will make much much difference.
> 
> You are justifiably upset. If you don't think you can or don't want to move past it (which when you say you are looking for reasons to end it) then you should end it before the bitterness swallows you whole. I do wish you luck, though, and hope that MC works out for you.


:iagree: This!


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## Tony55

Fledgling said:


> Right now she needs you to give of yourself and to acknowledge that her feelings are not retarded or bat crap crazy


That's right, you need to give of yourself and acknowledge that her feelings are not crazy, and that her thinking over the past 5 years makes sense, that she has a very legitimate reason for falling out of love with you and withholding that information until now. Her wants and desire should be respected. Show some accountability, stop psychoanalyzing her, give her the divorce she asked for.

T


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## anonymously

Fledgling said:


> Anon, it sounds like you really just want to know why your wife said xyz and that you want to understand her so you can make the decision on whether or not it's worth it to stay. The truth is the choice to stay is completely yours. So you need to answer, truthfully to yourself
> 
> Do you love her? Honestly over the course of this thread I have seen you call her crazy, retarded, cruel, possibly mentally ill, possibly having an affair and have hinted heavily that she is selfish and stubborn and even somewhat materialistic. You've said that you are looking for a reason to call it quits (even though ostensibly you are mad that she wants the divorce.) So the question is do you want to work this out because you don't want to be a failure (for many highly successful men this would hurt their ego) or because you love her. If you love her it would behoove you to try to always remember what you are saving. You are saving the time when you were amazed at her ability to handle a pregnancy and give birth to your perfect daughter. You are saving all the times when she stunned you with her capacity for charity and sympathy for people. Or maybe it was her intelligence and drive that reeled you in. Her smile. Her gentleness. Her willingness to be your partner not only in heart but in business. The phyical intimacy that you once shared that make you weak in the knees.
> 
> I know that you have tried your hardest to be a good husband. I believe you. But whenever some of us here may try to explain why she views you in a certain way the immediate response is that it is ridiculous. Right now, you aren't admitting to needing to work on anything so why would you expect that she would? Right now, apparently, you as close to perfect as it is possible to be. Sometimes it is difficult to live up to perfection. Part of every marriage is continually work at compromising with your spouse and adjusting behaviours according to circumstance. It's a process that never, ever ends. So if you love her and you want to save the marriage the only thing you can do is confront some hard realities about yourself and work on them. If you don't no amount of "understanding" your wife will amount to anything.
> 
> If you worry too much over whether or not she should be held to the same standard, the only thing that I can say is that yes, it takes to people to make a marriage work. And sometimes one spouse has to carry the load while the other flounders. But if they do when the other spouse is ready they will return the favor. We are all stuck on things being equal. It is more of a give and take. Right now she needs you to give of yourself and to acknowledge that her feelings are not retarded or bat crap crazy (just because you don't say it doesn't mean you aren't communicating it to her)
> 
> Until you are open to the fact that you have some accountability in your marriage no amount of psychoanalyzing your wife or getting you to understand her POV will make much much difference.
> 
> You are justifiably upset. If you don't think you can or don't want to move past it (which when you say you are looking for reasons to end it) then you should end it before the bitterness swallows you whole. I do wish you luck, though, and hope that MC works out for you.



Being a good guy and perfect are not the same thing. I never said perfect and I'm sure there are things which are my fault. But how can I take responsibility or anything when I had no chance to change anything? When I was never honestly told anything. Should I have been a mind reader? I never had an opportunity to change course, I was led to believe we were right on track. Also, I'm not looking for a reason to quit or leave I'm looking for one not too. The best analogy I can think of is like this. You threw me out in the middle of the ocean and left me there to drown, can you at least thrown me a line or a life preserver now so that I know there is a reason to swim so hard and fight drowning? 

I can take blame for almost anything, but I can take blame for something I don't know is an issue. If she indeed felt this way for that many years and hid it from me, then that's just plain cruel. Think about it this way. If she felt this way before we had a baby and didn't say anything at all.'Essentially she robbed me of a chance to make my own decision as to what I wanted before doing something that would bind us together for the rest of our lives. Who does that? I find that to be cruelest of behaviors. There are plenty of reasons to go, I only need one from her to not. Just a little sign to show she still feels something is all I am looking for. Have not seen it as of yet.

Hope that clarifies where I'm coming from
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonymously

Oh and also if there is any doubt, please don't assume that I'm calling her bat crap crazy. On here I find a outlet to vent and share not only my hurt, my situation but also my frustration. With the exception of a few moments of weakness caused by frustration and rejection I have taken the high road and tried to be less argumentative and more supportive. Although supportive does mean I have to become a door mat, or does it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_

I still need her to own what she did in terms of not being forthcoming so many years ago. Does any of this makes sense.

Seems like nothing has balance anymore...


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## alte Dame

Roger that. Supportive definitely does not equal doormat.


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## ComicBookLady

anonymously said:


> Oh and also if there is any doubt, please don't assume that I'm calling her bat crap crazy. On here I find a outlet to vent and share not only my hurt, my situation but also my frustration. With the exception of a few moments of weakness caused by frustration and rejection I have taken the high road and tried to be less argumentative and more supportive. Although supportive does mean I have to become a door mat, or does it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Doing all you can to try your best to save your marriage is NOT being a doormat. In my eyes that's shows _tremendous_ strength to do what you're doing. Seriously, it's awesome. It's easy for anyone to give up when things get hard, or to let pride and resentment take over and keep you from doing all that you can. 

I don't think anyone is expecting you to accept _blame_ for the whole situation, just accountable for the pain you inadvertently caused, just as she's accountable to the pain she's caused you (which I personally feel was also inadvertently). This means showing the other person that you care about the HURT she's felt over the years. You don't have to say sorry for the literal actions you don't agree you did, but are you not sorry for the pain she feels? Have you told her so? Wouldn't it be nice if she was sorry for the pain you're feeling now? I'm sure she will tell you she is.


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## anonymously

ComicBookLady said:


> Doing all you can to try your best to save your marriage is NOT being a doormat. In my eyes that's shows _tremendous_ strength to do what you're doing. Seriously, it's awesome. It's easy for anyone to give up when things get hard, or to let pride and resentment take over and keep you from doing all that you can.
> 
> I don't think anyone is expecting you to accept _blame_ for the whole situation, just accountable for the pain you inadvertently caused, just as she's accountable to the pain she's caused you (which I personally feel was also inadvertently). This means showing the other person that you care about the HURT she's felt over the years. You don't have to say sorry for the literal actions you don't agree you did, but are you not sorry for the pain she feels? Have you told her so? Wouldn't it be nice if she was sorry for the pain you're feeling now? I'm sure she will tell you she is.



Yes I did in fact say I was sorry, sorry for whatever I did or didn't do. I am willing to accept that. She can't even own that she feels bad for the way all of this might make me feel. She is not sorry for the pain I feel. She makes it clear and then follows it with "I can not feel" so what am I supposed to do with that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ComicBookLady

anonymously said:


> Yes I did in fact say I was sorry, sorry for whatever I did or didn't do. I am willing to accept that. She can't even own that she feels bad for the way all of this might make me feel. She is not sorry for the pain I feel. She makes it clear and then follows it with "I can not feel" so what am I supposed to do with that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



She of course needs to be accountable for your feelings. You sound like you did a GREAT job on your side.

If you don't mind sharing, how did you bring up your feelings to her(what words did you use?). Did she verbatim say "I am not sorry for your pain"? Has she seen any of the tears you've shed yet / seen you emotional? (if you don't want to share any of it I understand, just my own information gathering)

What I'm getting at is, she either A) didn't understand what you were needing to hear and why (men/women speak differently) ; or B) She's still behind the "wall" she's put up. When women begin distancing themselves, she puts one up between herself and the pain she's feeling. This is the same wall keeping her from feeling love right now, and also keeping her from feeling anything at all. She would have to let her wall down a little bit to feel the full brunt of her accountability to you, and that's a scary prospect for someone to open themselves up to pain again when she's been running from it for so long. 

But with you showing integrity and sticking to treating her the way you are, I have a feeling her walls will crumble eventually. 

You absolutely deserve accountability for your pain, and I feel you will get it eventually from her. Is it totally fair to you? No. That means you're and even stronger person to push back your validation needs for the sake of your marriage (which is no easy task!). And honestly I think she'll notice of your sacrifice.

Has she opened up to you any more about anything? Any talking is good!


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## dgtal

Dont rule out of OM. This thread was open only a week ago. 
Anon, how do you know? Thru PI?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonymously

ComicBookLady said:


> She of course needs to be accountable for your feelings. You sound like you did a GREAT job on your side.
> 
> If you don't mind sharing, how did you bring up your feelings to her(what words did you use?). Did she verbatim say "I am not sorry for your pain"? Has she seen any of the tears you've shed yet / seen you emotional? (if you don't want to share any of it I understand, just my own information gathering)
> 
> What I'm getting at is, she either A) didn't understand what you were needing to hear and why (men/women speak differently) ; or B) She's still behind the "wall" she's put up. When women begin distancing themselves, she puts one up between herself and the pain she's feeling. This is the same wall keeping her from feeling love right now, and also keeping her from feeling anything at all. She would have to let her wall down a little bit to feel the full brunt of her accountability to you, and that's a scary prospect for someone to open themselves up to pain again when she's been running from it for so long.
> 
> But with you showing integrity and sticking to treating her the way you are, I have a feeling her walls will crumble eventually.
> 
> You absolutely deserve accountability for your pain, and I feel you will get it eventually from her. Is it totally fair to you? No. That means you're and even stronger person to push back your validation needs for the sake of your marriage (which is no easy task!). And honestly I think she'll notice of your sacrifice.
> 
> Has she opened up to you any more about anything? Any talking is good!


Well last few data went better or so I thought until last night. A few days ago I found a really good article about resentment, it's effects and behaviors as well as some incredible insight as to how to deal with. I don't specific resentments but apparently there have been many little ones that have added up and became big. That and resentments from her past before me as well. She said the article struck a nerve and opened her eyes a bit and I felt a sigh of relief. During the day she sent some very long messages and said she was sorry and that she did love me. When I came home she quickly swept them under the rug and didn't mention much of the breakthrough we had. We sat after dinner and putting the baby down and watched some TV. Once again as total strangers would, no contact no more communication and I thought what the hell am I doing? In the morning I got ready for work and she of course woke up cold as a block of dry ice again. I didn't say much and went on to work. Well that was short lived as we soon got on the phone. We got into it because I reminded her again that this needed to be a joint effort between us. Over the weekend she told me that she resented doing everything at home and also hated that I still smoked. So I went out early in the morning and got the patch, I quit then and there. I helped her cook dinner and took care of dishes over the weekend too. I tried to do what I could to show how serious I was about making this thing work. She didn't come any closer and felt just as distant. I told her that we both need to be doing what we can to work out our issues and reconnect. I can't do it on my own. Of course she reminded me that she doesn't feel for me that way and I'm forcing her too do something she doesn't want to be showing each other any affection. I wasn't asking her to jump in the sack, just maybe snuggle up a little or look at each other while we speak or share a momentary connection to start rebuilding us. She said the wrong things in her hurtful way. Well I finally lost my head. I don't recall ever being the angry or yelling at anyone so badly. I regret losing my cool but I just couldn't be held down anymore. It hasn't helped much and today had back stepped ten fold. 

I'm not sure how much more I can take of this, I can't do it alone and I'm no strong enough to eat the hurt she is causing without her working to address or acknowledge it. Don't know where this will lead but it doesn't feel like its going down a good road and my hope is quickly fading. If I ever got that angry my child witnesses it I would never forgive myself. Reaching the end quickly and think I may be better of alone. At least there might be a chance for peace then.....and so my drama continues as I feel like I'm
falling helplessly off a cliff with a constant pit in stomach...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ComicBookLady

anonymously said:


> Well last few data went better or so I thought until last night. A few days ago I found a really good article about resentment, it's effects and behaviors as well as some incredible insight as to how to deal with. I don't specific resentments but apparently there have been many little ones that have added up and became big. That and resentments from her past before me as well. She said the article struck a nerve and opened her eyes a bit and I felt a sigh of relief. During the day she sent some very long messages and said she was sorry and that she did love me. When I came home she quickly swept them under the rug and didn't mention much of the breakthrough we had. We sat after dinner and putting the baby down and watched some TV. Once again as total strangers would, no contact no more communication and I thought what the hell am I doing? In the morning I got ready for work and she of course woke up cold as a block of dry ice again. I didn't say much and went on to work. Well that was short lived as we soon got on the phone. We got into it because I reminded her again that this needed to be a joint effort between us. Over the weekend she told me that she resented doing everything at home and also hated that I still smoked. So I went out early in the morning and got the patch, I quit then and there. I helped her cook dinner and took care of dishes over the weekend too. I tried to do what I could to show how serious I was about making this thing work. She didn't come any closer and felt just as distant. I told her that we both need to be doing what we can to work out our issues and reconnect. I can't do it on my own. Of course she reminded me that she doesn't feel for me that way and I'm forcing her too do something she doesn't want to be showing each other any affection. I wasn't asking her to jump in the sack, just maybe snuggle up a little or look at each other while we speak or share a momentary connection to start rebuilding us. She said the wrong things in her hurtful way. Well I finally lost my head. I don't recall ever being the angry or yelling at anyone so badly. I regret losing my cool but I just couldn't be held down anymore. It hasn't helped much and today had back stepped ten fold.
> 
> I'm not sure how much more I can take of this, I can't do it alone and I'm no strong enough to eat the hurt she is causing without her working to address or acknowledge it. Don't know where this will lead but it doesn't feel like its going down a good road and my hope is quickly fading. If I ever got that angry my child witnesses it I would never forgive myself. Reaching the end quickly and think I may be better of alone. At least there might be a chance for peace then.....and so my drama continues as I feel like I'm
> falling helplessly off a cliff with a constant pit in stomach...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Okay, first of all I have to get this out:

*DUUUUUDE she said SHE LOVED YOU!* :smthumbup:

I mean, holy crap! 1 1/2 weeks ago she said she didn't love you and she wanted a divorce.

NOW you got an "I Love You" out of her AND got her to open up about her feelings!! How can you not see that as progress? I'm so happy for you!

Okay now onwards...

Please please forgive me for being blunt (because I truly do care about your feelings and your marriage) but what happened is after all the hard work you put in, she trusted you enough to finally poke her head over the wall that's numbing her feelings for you, felt her love, and you messed it up 

I _get_ that it was frustrating that you got a tidbit of progress (a BIG tidbit!) and then the next day it was like it didn't happen. But your reactions pushed her right back behind her wall and you're going to have to work even more now to get it back to where it was. If you apologized sincerely RIGHT AWAY for getting angry at her then you may be able to repair most of this.

Point blank: You are expecting WAY too much WAY too soon. You need to focus only on getting her to put that wall back down before you can demand anything from her! Until that wall goes down, she is _incapable_ (INCAPABLE, she's not choosing to) of giving you what you want. Making demands and expectations of her NOW will only cause damage. Once the wall is down, THEN she can begin working on her side.

Please please go to her now and repair this. You were on a GREAT road. I wasn't expecting an "I love you" for a lot longer!

As per you feeling on how much you can take: That is your decision. No one is demanding you to do anything, or to put up with anything. This needs to be your decision to put in this effort to save your marriage. If you are done, you are done, and that's okay.

And you fell victim to your anger and frustrations and reacted in a way you didn't like. That's okay! We all do that! You need to make it known to HER that you made a mistake and you don't want to react that way again. 

Another question: When she opened up about her past resentments, did you validate them?

(Seriously, she said "I Love you"??? I am still soooo happy for you! I KNEW she loved you! )


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## Hopefull363

There is only so long he'll be able to put the effort in himself. The pain of feeling alone in the marriage will cause more resentments. It's the opposite with my husband and I. I don't know exactly how long this has been going on but try to stick with it for a while longer if you can. Give her space and do your own thing. You might want to look into the 180. That will give her space and help you work on yourself. If she comes to during this time then you are a better person If not you are ready to move on. I know how painful it is I've been dealing with it for a year and a half. I'm at the point where I want to throw him out. Let him see what living without me means. I've given myself a time frame now. We will have to move in a year. I'm pulling back and going about my business without him. Funny thing is he's started showing me just a little more attention. Bad part is I don't seem to care anymore.

Give yourself a time frame. Maybe 6 months or a year to give her space to figure things out. You may feel relieved to know that there will be an end to your limbo land and she may realize that she is going to loose you. Has she seen a doctor? I know this was probably mentioned before in this thread. Maybe her hormones are unbalanced? A MLC maybe? Thinking of you and wishing you an easier time then I've had and a better outcome.


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## anonymously

ComicBookLady said:


> Okay, first of all I have to get this out:
> 
> *DUUUUUDE she said SHE LOVED YOU!* :smthumbup:
> 
> I mean, holy crap! 1 1/2 weeks ago she said she didn't love you and she wanted a divorce.
> 
> NOW you got an "I Love You" out of her AND got her to open up about her feelings!! How can you not see that as progress? I'm so happy for you!
> 
> Okay now onwards...
> 
> Please please forgive me for being blunt (because I truly do care about your feelings and your marriage) but what happened is she finally poked her head over her wall that's numbing her feelings for you and you messed it up
> 
> I _get_ that it was frustrating that you got a tidbit of progress (a BIG tidbit!) and then the next day it was like it didn't happen. But your reactions pushed her right back behind her wall and you're going to have to work even more now to get it back to where it was. If you apologized sincerely RIGHT AWAY for getting angry at her then you may be able to repair most of this.
> 
> Point blank: You are expecting WAY too much WAY too soon. You need to focus only on getting her to put that wall back down before you can demand anything from her! Until that wall goes down, she is _incapable_ (INCAPABLE, she's not choosing to) of giving you what you want. Making demands and expectations of her NOW will only cause damage.
> 
> Please please go to her now and repair this. You were on a GREAT road. I wasn't expecting an "I love you" for a lot longer!
> 
> As per you feeling on how much you can take: That is your decision. No one is demanding you to do anything, or to put up with anything. This needs to be your decision to put in this effort to save your marriage. If you are done, you are done, and that's okay.
> 
> And you felt victim to your anger and frustrations and reacted in a way you didn't like. That's okay! We all do that! You need to make it known to HER that you made a mistake and you don't want to react that way again.
> 
> Another question: When she opened up about her past resentments, did you validate them?
> 
> (Seriously, she said "I Love you"??? I am still soooo happy for you! I KNEW she loved you! )


It was in a long text but regardless she did say it and it felt good to read finally read those words coming from her. When it slid back and disappeared whatever I had been holding back finally came out. It was ugly, up until then I was the one taking it and she was dishing it out. I couldn't help it, just couldn't keep it bottled up anymore. The problem for me partially is that can't understand how there can be no feelings of love on her part. How can you be this way after all these times, after all the years of giving everything of myself to her. No matter how angry I ever am it never changed how I feel in my heart towards her, so how can she be so cold and heartless toward me? It just doesn't make sense to me and the hurt and pain turn to anger and resentment. I can't holdIt in constantly and it got let out today with no control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tony55

anonymously said:


> During the day she sent some very long messages and said she was sorry and that she did love me. When I came home she quickly swept them under the rug and didn't mention much of the breakthrough we had.


If the messages she sent were "very long", then she had to have said a lot more than she was sorry and loved you; what else did she say in those messages?



Tony55 said:


> This woman has been slowly building *contempt* for the OP over the years, justified or not, she feels extreme *disdain* for him, so much so that she even stated she didn't like his personality.


*Contempt: disdain, disrespect*
Synonyms: contemptuousness, despisement, despite, despitefulness, disdain, misprision, scorn

Related Words: abhorrence, abomination, detestation, execration, hate, hatred, loathing, *lovelessness*; cattiness, hatefulness, invidiousness, malevolence, malice, maliciousness, malignancy, malignity, meanness, spite, spitefulness; aversion, disgust, distaste, horror, odium, repugnance, repulsion, revulsion; animosity, antagonism, antipathy, bitterness, enmity, gall, *grudge*, hostility, jealousy, pique, *resentment*; bile, jaundice, rancor, spleen, venom, vindictiveness, virulence, vitriol; aspersion, belittlement, deprecation, depreciation, detraction, diminishment, disparagement; derision, mockery, ridicule; abuse, invective, vituperation; censure, condemnation, denunciation



Tony55 said:


> The OP, for his own mental health, should remove himself from this demeaning, demoralizing, and obviously deteriorating relationship. By doing so he puts himself in a stronger psychological position and can begin the process of coming to terms with what she put him through. Additionally, he gets the added bonus of potentially snapping her out of her selfishness and self pity, and MAYBE cause her to realize what she's lost.


While you're working on *MAKING* her fall back in love with you, prepare a Plan B.

T


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## ComicBookLady

anonymously said:


> It was in a long text but regardless she did say it and it felt good to read finally read those words coming from her.


YES of course it would! I mean, holy crap! How wonderful! Hold onto that. You may not feel it right now, but that is a shining beacon of hope right there! The love is still there and she _felt_ it again. All that hard work paid off!



> When it slid back and disappeared whatever I had been holding back finally came out. It was ugly, up until then I was the one taking it and she was dishing it out.


I understand completely. It must have felt like you've been walking through a desert with no water for two weeks, Tired and Desperate for water, off in the distance you finally see an oasis! You're SO relieved that your guard falls for a moment. That's when you discover it was all a hallucination. With your guard down, the anger and frustration you feel is incredible, the whole trip through the desert feels like a waste and hopeless, and you let it all out.

The difference between my my scene above and your reality is that you got something REAL. It was NOT fake. It went away temporarily, but it's still there. Keep going till the oasis is permanent!



> I couldn't help it, just couldn't keep it bottled up anymore. The problem for me partially is that can't understand how there can be no feelings of love on her part. How can you be this way after all these times, after all the years of giving everything of myself to her. No matter how angry I ever am it never changed how I feel in my heart towards her, so how can she be so cold and heartless toward me? It just doesn't make sense to me and the hurt and pain turn to anger and resentment. I can't holdIt in constantly and it got let out today with no control.


It's okay. You are under tremendous stress, and you are doing a lot of hard hard work. It happens to all of us. But this doesn't mean the end. Show her NOW you can accept your mistakes, atone for them, and keep moving forward. You can do this, I have absolute faith in you!

Also, Try to accept that you may NEVER fully understand why she pulled away. Why? Because you're a man, she's a woman, and you have _completely _ different way of thinking and dealing with things. You may never "get it" because you NEVER lived through her side of your marriage, and you would cope differently than she did. Because you're so hurt, you're quick to point her as a villain (I understand), but I promise you she is not. If you relax your expectations and LET her come out from behind that wall (not shunt her back with demands/anger/frustrations) you may be able to finally understand that she never meant to hurt you, and you'll also be allowing her to take care of your feelings too.

Don't give up!

Can you post any of that text she sent you (only if you want to). I can try to translate some of the woman-ese for you! 

Also, did you validate her about her hurt RE: the housework?


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## Tall Average Guy

ComicBookLady said:


> Okay, first of all I have to get this out:
> 
> *DUUUUUDE she said SHE LOVED YOU!* :smthumbup:
> 
> I mean, holy crap! 1 1/2 weeks ago she said she didn't love you and she wanted a divorce.
> 
> NOW you got an "I Love You" out of her AND got her to open up about her feelings!! How can you not see that as progress? I'm so happy for you!


Honest question that perhaps can help the OP:

How do we know that she is telling the truth? Is it reasonable to expect that she did not love him two weeks ago (and did not for five years) but now does? If not, then was she lying before or lying now? 

I obviously have no idea regarding any of that with her, but I can sure see the OPs frustration over her poor communication style and the level of mistrust that he likely has. Her words seem to mean one thing at times, than other things at other times. How does he work with this? What tools can he use to get her to be more straight forward?

I will also mention that the OPs explosion is one good reason why a soft 180 can be useful. Pulling back so that he can keep control and expect less from her. I think smothering is a bad idea here, so keeping a little distance while talking to her and letting her process may help him avoid expecting too much from her and letting his feelings get in the way.


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## Sigma Uber Alles

She loves you...

She loves you not...

She loves you...

She loves you not...



I know I will be berated for harping on this point, but if there is a third party in the wings influencing her emotionally, it would explain her hot/cold behavior. If there is an OM, you will never repair the relationship without first removing him from the scene.


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## ComicBookLady

EDIT: HOLY CRUD this is a long post! My apologies for the wordiness. Just trying to get all the information asked for out there!



Tall Average Guy said:


> Honest question that perhaps can help the OP:
> 
> How do we know that she is telling the truth? Is it reasonable to expect that she did not love him two weeks ago (and did not for five years) but now does? If not, then was she lying before or lying now?


I know this is just me, and that I do not know them personally, but I am almost CERTAIN she was telling the truth.

To help explain (forgive my wordiness in this post!): Instead of the logical, black and white "She didn't love him, now she does" It may help to consider the _gray_ area that she's been in. 

When a woman is confronted with too much pain, over a prolonged period, there is only one way to escape the pain and still be married (because she truly doesn't want to leave him); and that is to put up a mental wall between her and her pain. It's her shield and protector.

What she _doesn't realize_ is that it also numbs her from feeling love or energy for her husband. The love is still there[/B] but it's behind a wall that, after years of strengthening, is too strong for even HER to bring down now. At this point as far gone as she is, ONLY OP can help bring that wall back down. And it was his choice whether or not he wanted to.

By being consistent in going to MC, putting her first, letting her have her say, he's brick by brick taking down that wall of hers. Apparently he took down enough bricks for some of that love came out and SHE FELT IT! But something scared her (probably OP's demanding/ seeming uncaring attitude) and she quickly re-bricked up her wall.

The love she felt was real. He must have been doing a damn fine job of taking care of things if he was able to break through a 5 year wall so soon! That's heartening!




> I obviously have no idea regarding any of that with her, but I can sure see the OPs frustration over her poor communication style and the level of mistrust that he likely has. Her words seem to mean one thing at times, than other things at other times. How does he work with this?


What is viewed as HER poor communication (or "always dishing it out") is actually mere miscommunication between man and woman. Blaming or getting frustrated at her or him does no good, they are just different people. A woman listening to her would think she made perfect sense. They simply need to work to overcome the language barrier.



> What tools can he use to get her to be more straight forward?


This is an issue they both need to work on together. But as she's "behind the wall" All I can do is suggest things to try from his side, and suggest things to say to her to help her communicate to him better. 

Once she's out from behind the wall, she'll be much more able to learn his communication style and I'd have things to suggest to her. Expecting anything from her NOW while behind the wall will only cause damage.

*- HOW TO UNDERSTAND*: A woman can turn "I am hurt" and make ten paragraphs from it.  He needs to zero in on what she truly means in order to reconcile the core emotional damage she's received.

He can start by focusing on when she uses wording like "I _feel_____" "I _felt_..." "That made me _feel_..." "I was _hurt_ by...." " I hated _feeling alone_ when ...." and focus on the words that follow those phrases. THOSE are the emotional issues that drove her behind the wall, and to move forward they must be dealt with appropriately.

_Common man/woman miscommunication_: HE focuses on the ACTIONS she's complaining about (in this case it could be not helping around the house) and starts debating his side. Avoid doing this! SHE needs you to focus on the _emotions_ felt because of those actions. Once you've singled out where the hurt was dealt, you can properly validate them, thereby healing them (and thereby REALLY tearing down that wall o' hers  )

EXAMPLE: I am guessing "_You didn't do any housework and you don't care about me_" REALLY meant "_I felt like you didn't take my feelings seriously when I told you about the housework and that hurt me badly. It's so hard to do it all by myself. I just wanted you to care_"

In which case you can fix this by validating her emotions.

" _I am sorry you felt like I didn't take you seriously, and that you were having such a hard time. I truly do care about you, and want to make you happy. Can we discuss some ways I can make you feel loved?_"

You are validating, healing, and moving forward.

From there you can discuss ideas, and find a solution you are BOTH happy with. If one of you is unhappy about the solution found, then it won't work. 

Let me know if anyone would like to hear some validation techniques (this post is long enough already!). And remember, Validation does NOT equal saying she's right! 

*THINGS YOU CAN ASK HER: *These are things you can say to her to help draw out the REAL issues, and help her understand how to speak to you better.

"Honey, I feel like we're having trouble understanding one another. Can you help me understand by telling me how you _felt_ when that happened?"

Or more simply:

"Please tell me how you _felt_ when I did that, I want very much to understand."

Both are focused on getting her to get straight to the core issues... her _feelings_. But beware! Sometimes she just wants to VENT. If she's not staying focused on her feelings, just let her _getitallout_. Having you there being receptive to is all helps her heal as well.



> I will also mention that the OPs explosion is one good reason why a soft 180 can be useful. Pulling back so that he can keep control and expect less from her. I think smothering is a bad idea here, so keeping a little distance while talking to her and letting her process may help him avoid expecting too much from her and letting his feelings get in the way.


You know? I never really thought of it that way! Most 180's I see mentioned are with the intent to force his wife to react a certain way. A "soft 180" with the intent to give her space, and better control of himself may be beneficial for both of them. What would a soft 180 consist of?


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## ComicBookLady

Sigma Uber Alles said:


> She loves you...
> 
> She loves you not...
> 
> She loves you...
> 
> She loves you not...
> 
> 
> 
> I know I will be berated for harping on this point, but if there is a third party in the wings influencing her emotionally, it would explain her hot/cold behavior. If there is an OM, you will never repair the relationship without first removing him from the scene.


You're not going to be berated! OM is a valid possibility, and you'd be completely right if this is the case!


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## Tall Average Guy

Thank you for the discussion. Not sure it all makes sense to me, but it is certainly something to consider and ponder some more. I hope the OP can take some useful items from there.



ComicBookLady said:


> You know? I never really thought of it that way! Most 180's I see mentioned are with the intent to force his wife to react a certain way. A "soft 180" with the intent to give her space, and better control of himself may be beneficial for both of them. What would a soft 180 consist of?


My thinking is to avoid bringing up the "relationship" frequently and let her be the one to do so. Work on himself to bring his own happiness, and try and not let her unhappiness effect him. By that I mean he can't be happy due to others, he needs to find it in himself (as everyone should). Demonstrate that he is in fact the type of man she wants to be married to.

While the OP can tell her he loves her, I think avoiding going over board. No smothering or trying to love her back. When she is ice cold, step away and make her feel the consequences of her actions. I suspect she at least gets something out of the relationship, even as resentful as she is. If she withdraws more, he should give her that space even while still being the same guy. If she wants to connect, do so. 

This can help him manage his own expectations as well as give them both distance when she is not working on the relationship in the way that he wants.


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## anonymously

Tall Average Guy said:


> Thank you for the discussion. Not sure it all makes sense to me, but it is certainly something to consider and ponder some more. I hope the OP can take some useful items from there.
> 
> 
> 
> My thinking is to avoid bringing up the "relationship" frequently and let her be the one to do so. Work on himself to bring his own happiness, and try and not let her unhappiness effect him. By that I mean he can't be happy due to others, he needs to find it in himself (as everyone should). Demonstrate that he is in fact the type of man she wants to be married to.
> 
> While the OP can tell her he loves her, I think avoiding going over board. No smothering or trying to love her back. When she is ice cold, step away and make her feel the consequences of her actions. I suspect she at least gets something out of the relationship, even as resentful as she is. If she withdraws more, he should give her that space even while still being the same guy. If she wants to connect, do so.
> 
> This can help him manage his own expectations as well as give them both distance when she is not working on the relationship in the way that he wants.


I guess somedays will be better than others. I can be strong but can't fix it alone, she's going to have to participate. I'm not smothering but I do expect a two way street. 

All I know is this is going to be the worst valentines day I have ever had. Being alone on Valentines was easier that being with someone who makes you feel alone. For the most part I am relatively happy within myself, if I had to be alone I will be ok with me. My issues are more with her than within myself, I can't control that but I can control how I choose it to effect me. Well at least most of the time I suppose I can....anyway I am working on my interests and taking it day by day. Some days just seek longer that others...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RobD

I am going through something very similar. My wife denied there was anyone else and recently I confirmed there is someone else. Someone she met on FB who lives on the other side of the country and having a reasonable relationship with is hopeless, yet, that has become more important to her than trying to put in some kind of effort to save our family and do what is best for our son. I am not saying she should remain in a marriage where she is unhappy, but believe she should atleast give some effort. She will not, has made up her mind and filed papers today.


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## anonymously

RobD said:


> I am going through something very similar. My wife denied there was anyone else and recently I confirmed there is someone else. Someone she met on FB who lives on the other side of the country and having a reasonable relationship with is hopeless, yet, that has become more important to her than trying to put in some kind of effort to save our family and do what is best for our son. I am not saying she should remain in a marriage where she is unhappy, but believe she should atleast give some effort. She will not, has made up her mind and filed papers today.


Very sorry to hear that bud, mine says there is no OM swears it up and down. As far as I can find and believe I looked every possible place I see no evidence that there is so I believe her. I'm sorry for you pain, but at least you know it's done. Maybe that can help bring you closer to some closer. Hang tough, you will be ok in the long run. We both will...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ComicBookLady

Tall Average Guy said:


> Thank you for the discussion. Not sure it all makes sense to me, but it is certainly something to consider and ponder some more. I hope the OP can take some useful items from there.
> 
> 
> 
> My thinking is to avoid bringing up the "relationship" frequently and let her be the one to do so. Work on himself to bring his own happiness, and try and not let her unhappiness effect him. By that I mean he can't be happy due to others, he needs to find it in himself (as everyone should). Demonstrate that he is in fact the type of man she wants to be married to.
> 
> While the OP can tell her he loves her, I think avoiding going over board. No smothering or trying to love her back. When she is ice cold, step away and make her feel the consequences of her actions. I suspect she at least gets something out of the relationship, even as resentful as she is. If she withdraws more, he should give her that space even while still being the same guy. If she wants to connect, do so.
> 
> This can help him manage his own expectations as well as give them both distance when she is not working on the relationship in the way that he wants.


Haha I get points for trying though, right?  It's SO HARD to try and explain something like this quickly and succinctly! Thanks for reading through it! :smthumbup:

Your reasoning for the soft 180 sounds very interesting. I get the reasoning, and I wish I could agree completely. I just don't feel like married couples should treat each other that way.  It just feels like forcing her to behave. But some of the other stuff I can agree with!

But that's just my opinion. You never know what might work for OP!  Thank you so much for describing it to me! Learn something new everyday.


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## Tall Average Guy

ComicBookLady said:


> Haha I get points for trying though, right?  It's SO HARD to try and explain something like this quickly and succinctly! Thanks for reading through it! :smthumbup:


Explanation is always good. T



> Your reasoning for the soft 180 sounds very interesting. I get the reasoning, and I wish I could agree completely. I just don't feel like married couples should treat each other that way.  It just feels like forcing her to behave. But some of the other stuff I can agree with!


What you call "forcing her to behave" I call protecting yourself and enforcing boundaries. He can't force her to do a dang thing. What he can do is decide how he is going to act when she does certain things. So is she is being cold and distant, I don't see how smothering her is going to help. It ignores what she is communicating. Giving her a bit of space gives her what she says she wants, as well as prevents him blowing up when she continues it. 

I think part of why I asked that first question of you is that it seems she is whip sawing him (based on your interpretation of events). Respect and validate her feelings except when he is not supposed to. Actions are a big part of communication. When she is icy to him, she is communicating that she does not want him around. So what is he supposed to do? It seems like giving her space is deemed manipulation, but isn't doing otherwise ignoring her feelings?


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## Tony55

anonymously said:


> Very sorry to hear that bud, mine says there is no OM swears it up and down. As far as I can find and believe I looked every possible place I see no evidence that there is so I believe her. I'm sorry for you pain, but at least you know it's done. Maybe that can help bring you closer to some closer. Hang tough, you will be ok in the long run. We both will...


My brother struggled through years of his wife's disconnect, he eventually discovered an affair that happened years ago. He divorced her. Later, on a hunch, he decided to get a paternity test on his 10 year old son; it came back that he wasn't the biological father. His years of a distant marriage all made sense after that.

My brothers a smart guy, not much gets past him, but this did; women are good at keeping secrets.

Leave no stone unturned. For your own good.

T


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## ComicBookLady

Tall Average Guy said:


> Explanation is always good. T
> 
> 
> 
> What you call "forcing her to behave" I call protecting yourself and enforcing boundaries. He can't force her to do a dang thing. What he can do is decide how he is going to act when she does certain things. So is she is being cold and distant, I don't see how smothering her is going to help. It ignores what she is communicating. Giving her a bit of space gives her what she says she wants, as well as prevents him blowing up when she continues it.
> 
> I think part of why I asked that first question of you is that it seems she is whip sawing him (based on your interpretation of events). Respect and validate her feelings except when he is not supposed to. Actions are a big part of communication. When she is icy to him, she is communicating that she does not want him around. So what is he supposed to do? It seems like giving her space is deemed manipulation, but isn't doing otherwise ignoring her feelings?


This help me understand better how you view the situation (so thank you!).


The big difference between my theory and what many in this thread (and OP) believe, is I think she is _unable_ (not purposefully witholding) to efficiently reciprocate energy for their marriage UNTIL that wall of hers comes down and the love and energy returns. Right now she is "unable to feel" (truth), and in this state you _cannot_ layer expectations and demands without driving her over that last speed bump to divorce. He DOES need to do the heavy lifting until her love/energy returns. Once she feels love and energy again, she can work on her side efficiently. 

I understand it's hard to comprehend what I'm trying to say unless you've personally lived it. On the surface it seems unfair for OP and easy to defend him. But I'm talking about the bigger picture. What I see is he has ONE PATH to fix this marriage, and he HAS to push aside pride, resentments, and expectations to do it. If he chooses not to? That's his choice. But I'm certain marriage will end, and that would be terrible to see. 

Thank you again for the discussion! :smthumbup:


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## ComicBookLady

Tony55 said:


> My brother struggled through years of his wife's disconnect, he eventually discovered an affair that happened years ago. He divorced her. Later, on a hunch, he decided to get a paternity test on his 10 year old son; it came back that he wasn't the biological father. His years of a distant marriage all made sense after that.
> 
> My brothers a smart guy, not much gets past him, but this did; women are good at keeping secrets.
> 
> Leave no stone unturned. For your own good.
> 
> T


Just wanted to say; I'm so sorry for your brother. How awful


----------



## Tall Average Guy

ComicBookLady said:


> I understand it's hard to comprehend what I'm trying to say unless you've personally lived it. On the surface it seems unfair for OP and easy to defend him. But I'm talking about the bigger picture. What I see is he has ONE PATH to fix this marriage, and he HAS to push aside pride, resentments, and expectations to do it. If he chooses not to? That's his choice. But I'm certain marriage will end, and that would be terrible to see.
> 
> Thank you again for the discussion! :smthumbup:


I understand. But please understand that it looks like a path of her wants, needs, hurts and desires being placed in a position of importance, while his are not considered. She takes no responsibility for anything because she can't get past it. The only way to save the "relationship" is to be a doormat and elevate her over him. That she gets to be hurt and he then has to drop everything for her sake. I see a lot of danger going down that path.


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## Curse of Millhaven

First, I would like to say how truly sorry I am that you are going through this. Your gut-wrenching pain, confusion, anger, and grief are palpable and profound. I haven't ever posted here (although my own troubles led me here to read through many helpful discussions) and I've never read a self-help book in my life. The only 180 I know about is a reversal of direction that is the opposite of the starting point and I didn't know what an EA, PA, or even what an SO were either. But in reading through this discussion I felt compelled to share my opinion and offer any help that I could, even if it was merely expressing my sorrow and sympathy for your situation.

Your love for your wife is evident in your perseverance and self-control. Truthfully if my partner told me they didn't love me, wanted a divorce, hadn't felt anything for me for 5 years, and disliked my very personality I would not have reacted as patiently and pragmatically as you have. The statements that your wife has made are insensitive at best and hurtful, deliberately cruel at worst. I understand that you want to work this through for the sake of your marriage and most importantly your child, which is admirable and commendable, but it does seem that you are being taken advantage of in this horrible situation. The facts are irrefutable: without preamble or causation your spouse marches up to you one day and announces "I don't love nor want you, I want a divorce, and oh p.s. I haven't felt anything for you for years!" When the bomb blasts wear off you agree to accept this despite the cost to you, your family, your emotional well being, you offer to help her financially, and when you make the wise decision to separate her physically from your life and from her comfort zone - she then backpedals and says "wait, what? you want me to leave? you mean my capricious actions had consequences? maybe we should try marriage counseling. why are you being so hasty?" So you agree to counseling and working things through. All the while she continues to drop emotional bread crumbs that you are supposed to follow to the ultimate conclusion of why? "WHY is she doing this? Why doesn't she love me anymore?" This is unacceptable. I realize nothing is created in a vacuum and that these resentments have been building over time (five years, ostensibly) due to some real or imagined infractions on your part, but whatever happened to being a mature, responsible adult and simply being forthright and addressing the issues and ensuing emotional reactions as they occur? She has not let you know by word or deed for five years that she has serious misgivings about you and your relationship, choosing instead to silently seethe, dupe you, and then unceremoniously announce she wants out. Ultimately does the "why" really matter anymore? She has stated in unequivocal terms that she does not love you, she wants a divorce (or is it "wanted" at this point? maybe it will be in the present tense again in the near future), has felt nothing for you for five years, any acts of intimacy or affection were feigned for FIVE YEARS, she doesn't like your personality (the very manifestation of your character and what makes you YOU), and that you are forcing her to do something she doesn't want to do, i.e., show you love and affection. 

Taking all of this into account, my suggestion would be to separate at this point. Get some distance from the situation and give yourselves the necessary emotional space to make informed decisions about your future, whether it be together or apart. This might also allow her to experience and fully comprehend the ramifications of her decision, which could cause her to reevaluate her choice...sometimes we don't miss our water until our well runs dry. Might give her perspective. You can continue in marriage counseling with the end goal being mutable based on the progress...both of you proactively working through the issues in the relationship with an honest, loving partnership being the outcome or both of you agreeing that you should respectfully split with the end result being a constructive, cooperative friendship for the sake of your child.

And again, I think it is very commendable that you want to work this out for your child's sake, but sometimes splitting and sparing the child years of witnessing and internalizing a loveless, bitter marriage might be the least damaging option. Children are very perceptive and your marriage will affect and influence them as an individual and in their future relationships. And remember...you are not the one who cavalierly announced that you wanted a divorce and to break up the family...that was your wife. You have just been trying to cope with the damage and fall out of her decision. She unilaterally decided that she wanted a divorce and only took a step back when she realized she would have to leave the lap of luxury in which she has grown accustomed to sitting. The alternative scenario that she didn't mean it and was just playing a game of "the girl who cried divorce" and panicked when you called her bluff does not exactly paint a flattering picture of her either. It's my humble opinion that when you have a child, game playing should be left to the children and the adults should be, well, adults...responsible, emotionally mature, and capable of working on and through the changing seasons of their relationship. Granted I don't have children so my opinion on this may be unrealistic, but there it is. 

I apologize for the lengthy reply and if I have said anything that could in any way be misconstrued as disrespectful to you or your wife; that was not my intention. Whatever happens and whatever you both decide I wish you strength and the best possible outcome for you and your family. Take care of yourself.


----------



## ComicBookLady

Tall Average Guy said:


> I understand. But please understand that it looks like a path of her wants, needs, hurts and desires being placed in a position of importance, while his are not considered. She takes no responsibility for anything because she can't get past it. The only way to save the "relationship" is to be a doormat and elevate her over him. That she gets to be hurt and he then has to drop everything for her sake. I see a lot of danger going down that path.


I appreciate that it seems that way, and I can totally agree that if you look at this situation solely through his perspective, that would be the purely logical way to view it. 

What I see lacking here is people taking into account HER side. She pulled away and lost her love for a _reason_, and I am almost positive it was repeated hurt he caused over YEARS. I guarantee if his wife came on here and told her story, you'd hear something else _completely_, and people would be saying "do a 180, he's awful, divorce him, etc. etc". 

What I'm saying is, most situations are not true 100% to one perspective. The answer is almost always somewhere in the middle. 

Why does he have to do the heavy lifting first? Because right now she is the one with the foot out the door. Because all her years of pain are yet to be validated by him. He broke her trust to treat her feelings with care, and that _must_ be healed FIRST so he can bring that foot that's out the door back in. A woman cannot feel energy for her marriage if feelings as deep as hers go unvalidated. If he acts like he doesn't care, or lays down demands and expectations _at this time_, it will be the kiss of death to their marriage. 

If he decides to divorce her? She will not chase after him. His ONLY path (that I see) to save his marriage is to lay aside his feelings until she's back in the game with him, feels her love again, and is ready to try 100%.


----------



## Tony55

ComicBookLady said:


> If he decides to divorce her? She will not chase after him. His ONLY path (that I see) to save his marriage is to lay aside his feelings until she's back in the game with him, feels her love again, and is ready to try 100%.


We've all read the quote; 

*“If you love someone, set them free. If they come back they're yours; if they don't they never were.”*

_By Richard Bach, 1937_

I'd say this is one of those cases. Set her free, she needs to work this out on her own.

T


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## terrence4159

sorry for what you are going through anyon i really am. ill tell you what happened 2 me 9 years ago. married just had a kid then my wife come i want a divorce, i love you not in love with you then 3 months later and lots of i love you i dont love you i dont know....bamo she was cheating on me the whole 3 months and a few before i was plan b until plan a came through. 

i could be wrong but you script is playing right along mine, my XW lead me along long enought to secure plan a.


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## ComicBookLady

Tony55 said:


> We've all read the quote;
> 
> *“If you love someone, set them free. If they come back they're yours; if they don't they never were.”*
> 
> _By Richard Bach, 1937_
> 
> I'd say this is one of those cases. Set her free, she needs to work this out on her own.
> 
> T


That is a lovely phrase  I would agree with it if the issue in the marriage was her own internal issues that could not be helped by her husband. However what I'm reading is that she has glaring problems with her husband that were left unresolved for way too long.

Honestly (and no offense intended to OP) I see an issue just in his posts surrounding an inability to see things objectively, or consider her side of things (CRITICAL to make a woman feel validated). He doesn't see how her problems make logical sense, and so thinks she's wrong, and gets frustrated with her. It's INCREDIBLY common for men and women to have this communication issue!

She has one foot out the door. Her energy is gone. Her love is numbed. She won't come back and try for a marriage that shows no promise of changing. If that's the case, if she's giving him one last shot to show he's serious, do you think seeing a cold, indifferent person would persuade her to stay? NO WAY! Or one that pressures her with demands and expectations to hurry things along? NOPERS! 

If what I'm seeing is correct, nothing is keeping her unless he shows her a reason to stay, and any negative moves could mean divorce.

But again, I see how you and Tall Average Guy could come to the conclusions you have based on the information given. And it's really nice to see so many people caring about his situation.


----------



## ComicBookLady

terrence4159 said:


> sorry for what you are going through anyon i really am. ill tell you what happened 2 me 9 years ago. married just had a kid then my wife come i want a divorce, i love you not in love with you then 3 months later and lots of i love you i dont love you i dont know....bamo she was cheating on me the whole 3 months and a few before i was plan b until plan a came through.
> 
> i could be wrong but you script is playing right along mine, my XW lead me along long enought to secure plan a.


I'm so very sorry that happened to you  There is never ever an excuse for cheating. I hope now your life is wonderful!


----------



## Tony55

terrence4159 said:


> 3 months later and lots of i love you i dont love you i dont know....bamo she was cheating on me the whole 3 months and a few before i was plan b until plan a came through.


I've seen a lot of relationships break up, and to be quite honest, right off the top of my head, I cannot think of a single one of them breaking up (divorce), on the bases that one of the spouses simply didn't love the other anymore. Now, that's not to say I haven't known couples who were married and one isn't truly in love with the other, I believe I know many like that, but I've not known any who divorced on that bases alone. Usually when it comes to, I don't love you, I want a divorce, there's another person involved. It may have started with a lack of love, which led to an eventual affair (emotional or physical), and then the spouse finally lays on the table that their no longer in love, but only after some final catalyst got involved that gave them the courage to come clean about their feelings (but not come clean about the new emotional interest in someone else).

Now, obviously there are the exceptions, but I'd say those are few and far between, and that the odds are stacked against you if you're hanging on the belief that your spouse is that unique individual that truly made the leap from I'm not in love with your to I'm leaving (want a divorce) without someone on the outside influencing it.

T


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## Decorum

Yep, Tony is spot on. (Terrence good post thx for sharing that)

If she had just an almost innocent (not) taste of an ea somewhere, even if its completely over, it will poison her enjoyment of her marriage, and drain her of the will to try.

And never seperate, seperation is a cheaters vacation.

Nope unless there is abuse or the like, its hard to seperate and work on the relationship.

Stay and work on the relationship.

If you have been a jerk and she is traped behind a wall of resentment and cannot open up with you, it will take time, yes, but she needs to make an adult decision.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy

ComicBookLady said:


> I appreciate that it seems that way, and I can totally agree that if you look at this situation solely through his perspective, that would be the purely logical way to view it.
> 
> What I see lacking here is people taking into account HER side. She pulled away and lost her love for a _reason_, and I am almost positive it was repeated hurt he caused over YEARS. I guarantee if his wife came on here and told her story, you'd hear something else _completely_, and people would be saying "do a 180, he's awful, divorce him, etc. etc".
> 
> What I'm saying is, most situations are not true 100% to one perspective. The answer is almost always somewhere in the middle.
> 
> Why does he have to do the heavy lifting first? Because right now she is the one with the foot out the door. Because all her years of pain are yet to be validated by him. He broke her trust to treat her feelings with care, and that _must_ be healed FIRST so he can bring that foot that's out the door back in. A woman cannot feel energy for her marriage if feelings as deep as hers go unvalidated. If he acts like he doesn't care, or lays down demands and expectations _at this time_, it will be the kiss of death to their marriage.
> 
> If he decides to divorce her? She will not chase after him. His ONLY path (that I see) to save his marriage is to lay aside his feelings until she's back in the game with him, feels her love again, and is ready to try 100%.


Again, I understand that you believe he is the bad guy and she is some poor victim. I just don't see it that way, and we won't change each other's minds. 

I won't presume to tell the OP what he should do. I will remind him to not be a doormat to her. At present, she is whipsawing him, whether she intends to or not. At some point, her words have to mean something. If she says something hurtful, she can't hide behind her feelings not being "validated" or not being sure what she wants or means. She is an adult and should be treated that way.


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## anonymously

Been a little while since I have been back here...in some respects there has been a little bit of progress, but not without tremendous backslides. She has a multitude of resentments. Anything from leaving socks on the floor to not helping her enough around the house or with the baby back when she was a baby. 

The interesting part however is that she never once clearly defined or communicated that she needed me to do those things or even expected that from me. What she did however do is dump a majority of her work resposibilities on me and whatever message was delivered whether implied or otherwise was that her expectation was that I would be the one taking care of our business lives and doing both of our work for us. I never knew that I was also expected to care of things at home, it was never discussed. The absurdity is that she felt I should just know those things. Except I am no mind reader, and can never have known she felt this way. All I knew from her implied message was that I was to go out and kill and hunt for my family and be the hunter and provider. That is what I did, and I did it well. The other things in my mind were unimportant to what I should be doing as she was taking care of them and so I assumed that was her role and I was being given mine. I did during the course of these times continue to tell her how much I appreciated, but must have said it in some foreign language because in her mind I did not do those things, I did not say it and I do not appreciated it. This could not be further from the truth. 

As this was revealed, she still doesnt want to let it go, or accept or forgive any of it. How can you hold on to so much resentment and know that I could not have possibley known to behave any differently and that I could only have done what I thought was expected from me? That just makes no sense to me in any way. I did what I thought you wanted me to do, based on your communication and actions and now you hate me for it? and even though you now know I did what you were portraying you wanted, you still continue to resent me. That is insanity at its finest IMO...

A Few nights ago we went out with some friends. We had a few drinks and did a lot of dancing. It was something we had not done in years and felt pretty good to just let loose and have some fun. She was showing effection, we have some nice slow dance moments and we were closer than we had been in a long time. As I mentioned we felt pretty good. 

As the weekend unfolded we were doing well the next day, spent more time together got a bit closer etc.. so Sunday night I decided to try to get a little closer not because I was forcing it but because it just felt good and natural. She immediately back away 2 feet from me and could not bring herself to be close to my space. Things went quickly to crap from there. She got completely crazy screaming and arguing that I only wanted one thing. So of course that led to a major fight and ended very badly. 

Oh and I should mention to that when we were out that night it was the first time I also looked at the world around me without the blinders of our relationship. I actually took notice of the other women around us. Something I have always been oblivious too in the past. When I did that, my eyes were opened up to seeing that other women actually were expressing interest in me when I walked by. A few even tried to strike up a conversation when I took a break and went to the restroom. I have to admit, it was nice to be noticed and it was nice to finally see it and realize it first hand. I never paid much attention to that before. 

Of course after noticing this and then another major rejection and more bad feeling I realized that it's not just the rejection that was my big issue. I can understand if you are going through something right now and cant be there physically at that immediate moment. Really I can. But what I expect is that at the very minmum you can say: Hey i'm just not there right now, but I know this is important to you. It's important to me to and value what you are saying, this just isnt a good time for that. That would have been great, rather than just complete, cold, and heartless rejection. Rejection follwed by the anger of screaming that I only wanted one thing and that's all men are ever wanting. So now I have become all men? Really now? That's what you think? Apparently so because couldnt say that enough.

At the same time, I realized that hey...wait a minute...other women and a decent number of them actually do find me to be attractive. I was allowing someone who I love dehumanize me not by their rejection alone, but by her lack of even telling me that my issues, wants and needs are even remotely important. It was at that moment I realized that I am allowing myself to be abused by someone who is not even trying to give back what I am putting in. Not only that, but I wasnt even allowed to voice it. At that moment, I decided I was not going to be stifled anymore. My voice was going to be heard or I was not longer going to travel the road of repairing this marriage alone. 

I told her I had enough, and let her know that I had become aware that other women actually want me and I did not have to be stifled and made to feel unimportant with regard to my own needs. I did make sure to say that while ending this is not what I want, I can not and will not allow her to make turn me into the obedient dog who sits quietly in the corner performing at my masters will while swallowing my self of self in fear of her inability to accept my needs as being important. I asked to to please sign the divorce papers and allow me to move on with healing my life. I was all done and throwing in the towel. My love for her was not strong enough to sacrifice my own self. What's that old saying, To thyself be true? Well it's time I do just that. I was always a strong person, and I was a leader. When we met that is the way I was. It's who I am and have been my entire life. It's what attracted her to me to begin with. Through all of this, I slowly allowed her to strip me of that leadership quality. I have become subservient and allowed my self of self worth and pride to be slowly stripped away. I hate to be vulger, but had been handing my balls over one little piece at a time until I had none left. I could no longer allow that to happen, and decided that I had to put an end to it. Just sign the divorce and be on your merry way. I will be devasted, but I will heal. Continuing to do this to myself was more damaging that the break up itself would be. 

That was yesterday, today is here and she is applogizing for not stating my feelings are important. She isnt giving me much more in way of anything other than the same old I love you but I cant feel right now. I'm trying to get there, but I dont know if I ever can again, I hope I can and am willing to try to work it out. So now the decision has to be made, do I accept this and continue to try or do I stick to my guns and say its over. Yesterday was clear, today is not.....Seems to be a pretty common theme and pattern of my life over the last few months.


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## turnera

Tell her exactly what you would need. Be concrete. I need sex at least twice a week. I need you to handle the household chores since I work. I need you to attend MC with me once or twice a month for at least a year. I need you to go to IC to deal with your resentment.

Stuff like that.

Hand it to her. Tell her if she's not willing to do these things, you'll be moving on.


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## warlock07

It is sad reality but the one who cares the least in a relationship has power over it...Notice the moment when she started considering your emotions as well.


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## anchorwatch

Bully for you!!! You found yourself. Now stay in control. You need to be the captain of this ship. She proved she is incapable of righting the course. For five years she was unhappy and dissatisfied and did nothing about it. 

She could only come up with one conclusion, that if she doesn't know why she's unhappy it must be your fault. Then she blamed anything she could on you. This is not uncommon in troubled marriages. 

Now that you know what this is about, you need to ask yourself if you have the will, to try and right this ship, knowing it may still hit the rocks.


Edit: That's twice you put it on the line and got results. I think now you understand.


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## anchorwatch

Read this posting, about how another member handled the situation you found yourself in. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27426-what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story.html#post356548

And these too. 

No More Mr. Nice Guy

https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


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## Tony55

anonymously said:


> She isnt giving me much more in way of anything other than the same old I love you but I cant feel right now. I'm trying to get there, but I dont know if I ever can again, I hope I can and am willing to try to work it out.


You're the only one with the ability to jolt her emotions back to life, she certainly isn't capable of fixing it. The only way to get her emotions back on track is for you to reject her, and the only way to reject her is to *really reject her*, otherwise this thing will bounce back and forth until she just walks out one day. You're best shot is to cause her to pursue you, in order to do that, you have to remove yourself from her proximity.

T


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## btdt

If you're going to R, then you are better served putting your issues on the back burner for now and focusing on those issues that are causing her resentment. You're going to need to develop some patience and realize that you're not going to get immediate results. Have no expectations for R but observe whether she is taking the steps to get the relationship back on track.

Keep the direct pressure low on her. Don't discuss divorce and don't initiate intimacy. If she wants to be intimate, let her initiate it. As much as possible, try to keep things fun (like going out dancing like you did last weekend).

On the other hand, I would start communicate to her through your actions that you are laying the groundwork for moving on with your life. This could involve simple changes like going to the gym or dressing better. You might get an apartment locator guide and leave it lying around where she can find it.

I also think it would be good if she had a little competition ( or that she perceives that she has some competition). You've now seen that there are other women out there that are interested in you. She needs to see that you are aware of this interest. Let her see you interacting with other women more. Don't do anything inappropriate, but through your actions let her know that the idea of being with someone else is becoming more appealing to you. Jealousy can be a powerful motivator, use it to you advantage.

Your attitude should be that maybe you will R or maybe you will D, but you are fine with either outcome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fledgling

Still on this, Anon? I am not sure what you are expecting. Or why. You "laid it on the line" and got results only to be thrown back time and again. Seems to me that's not working out for you. Why? Because tactics like the ones you've been using use "scare tactics and guilt" to get her to get in line. What you've been doing hasn't seemed to have changed her perception of you one iota. Now, you're noticing other women noticing you? Seems like you're looking for validation in all the wrong places. You are ripening yourself for an emotionl affair.


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## anonymously

anchorwatch said:


> Read this posting, about how another member handled the situation you found yourself in.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27426-what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story.html#post356548
> 
> And these too.
> 
> No More Mr. Nice Guy
> 
> https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


Loved this! Thank you for the link...."what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story"


----------



## anonymously

Fledgling said:


> Still on this, Anon? I am not sure what you are expecting. Or why. You "laid it on the line" and got results only to be thrown back time and again. Seems to me that's not working out for you. Why? Because tactics like the ones you've been using use "scare tactics and guilt" to get her to get in line. What you've been doing hasn't seemed to have changed her perception of you one iota. Now, you're noticing other women noticing you? Seems like you're looking for validation in all the wrong places. You are ripening yourself for an emotionl affair.


Well that is a very tainted opinion perhaps based on your own experience? The point is, I know who I am and what I deserve. I have given plent of opportunity. The basis of any past work has been that she wants to work it out but only to the point of what she wants and only what she wants and my needs are not important or remotely being met. I deserve better than that. Anything to do with other women noticing me is not to be construed with me wanting them or any other woman, its the simple fact that I realize that if I need to go down that path I will be ok and she is not the only fish in the sea so to speak. The simple truth is that I will compromise my own happiness or needs for the sake of someone else's regardless of how much I might love them. This is a far cry from me opening myself to my having any type of affair EM or otherwise. What of man or person would I become if I allow someone to control me by withholding love affection or sex? Sorry, that can be some other victum but it will not ever be me. Not again anyway.

I lost my way, and I was not true to me for fear that if I were then this marriage would end. The truth is that if that is what I need to do to keep someone then it has already ended then hasnt it?


----------



## Fledgling

anonymously said:


> Well that is a very tainted opinion perhaps based on your own experience? The point is, I know who I am and what I deserve. I have given plent of opportunity. The basis of any past work has been that she wants to work it out but only to the point of what she wants and only what she wants and my needs are not important or remotely being met. I deserve better than that. Anything to do with other women noticing me is not to be construed with me wanting them or any other woman, its the simple fact that I realize that if I need to go down that path I will be ok and she is not the only fish in the sea so to speak. The *simple truth is that I will compromise my own happiness or needs for the sake of someone else's regardless of how much I might love them.* This is a far cry from me opening myself to my having any type of affair EM or otherwise. What of man or person would I become if I allow someone to control me by withholding love affection or sex? Sorry, that can be some other victum but it will not ever be me. Not again anyway.
> 
> I lost my way, and I was not true to me for fear that if I were then this marriage would end. The truth is that if that is what I need to do to keep someone then it has already ended then hasnt it?


Well, there it is isn't it? Your needs, your happiness, your wants... You were supposedly blindsided by your wife. Your needs and wants and desires have been met for A LONG TIME. Otherwise you would not have been blindsided. Her needs and wants haven't been met for a long time. How is she controling you exactly? By withholding sex? You see it as controlling. She feels it as self defense. She doesn't want to get close again because she is hurt, not because she wants to hurt you. One minute you sound magnaniomous how you would do anything to save your marriage (like quitting smoking etc). To her she sees it that you are willing to do all the superficial work, but when it comes to rebuilding the foundation of your relationship, not so much. It must seem incredibly patronizing to her. Have you ever been in an argument and someone says "you're right" just to shut them up or to end the argument but you know in your heart that they don't believe it?


----------



## AWsman

anonymously said:


> Been a little while since I have been back here...in some respects there has been a little bit of progress, but not without tremendous backslides. She has a multitude of resentments. Anything from leaving socks on the floor to not helping her enough around the house or with the baby back when she was a baby.
> 
> The interesting part however is that she never once clearly defined or communicated that she needed me to do those things or even expected that from me. What she did however do is dump a majority of her work resposibilities on me and whatever message was delivered whether implied or otherwise was that her expectation was that I would be the one taking care of our business lives and doing both of our work for us. I never knew that I was also expected to care of things at home, it was never discussed. The absurdity is that she felt I should just know those things. Except I am no mind reader, and can never have known she felt this way. All I knew from her implied message was that I was to go out and kill and hunt for my family and be the hunter and provider. That is what I did, and I did it well. The other things in my mind were unimportant to what I should be doing as she was taking care of them and so I assumed that was her role and I was being given mine. I did during the course of these times continue to tell her how much I appreciated, but must have said it in some foreign language because in her mind I did not do those things, I did not say it and I do not appreciated it. This could not be further from the truth.
> 
> As this was revealed, she still doesnt want to let it go, or accept or forgive any of it. How can you hold on to so much resentment and know that I could not have possibley known to behave any differently and that I could only have done what I thought was expected from me? That just makes no sense to me in any way. I did what I thought you wanted me to do, based on your communication and actions and now you hate me for it? and even though you now know I did what you were portraying you wanted, you still continue to resent me. That is insanity at its finest IMO...
> 
> A Few nights ago we went out with some friends. We had a few drinks and did a lot of dancing. It was something we had not done in years and felt pretty good to just let loose and have some fun. She was showing effection, we have some nice slow dance moments and we were closer than we had been in a long time. As I mentioned we felt pretty good.
> 
> As the weekend unfolded we were doing well the next day, spent more time together got a bit closer etc.. so Sunday night I decided to try to get a little closer not because I was forcing it but because it just felt good and natural. She immediately back away 2 feet from me and could not bring herself to be close to my space. Things went quickly to crap from there. She got completely crazy screaming and arguing that I only wanted one thing. So of course that led to a major fight and ended very badly.
> 
> Oh and I should mention to that when we were out that night it was the first time I also looked at the world around me without the blinders of our relationship. I actually took notice of the other women around us. Something I have always been oblivious too in the past. When I did that, my eyes were opened up to seeing that other women actually were expressing interest in me when I walked by. A few even tried to strike up a conversation when I took a break and went to the restroom. I have to admit, it was nice to be noticed and it was nice to finally see it and realize it first hand. I never paid much attention to that before.
> 
> Of course after noticing this and then another major rejection and more bad feeling I realized that it's not just the rejection that was my big issue. I can understand if you are going through something right now and cant be there physically at that immediate moment. Really I can. But what I expect is that at the very minmum you can say: Hey i'm just not there right now, but I know this is important to you. It's important to me to and value what you are saying, this just isnt a good time for that. That would have been great, rather than just complete, cold, and heartless rejection. Rejection follwed by the anger of screaming that I only wanted one thing and that's all men are ever wanting. So now I have become all men? Really now? That's what you think? Apparently so because couldnt say that enough.
> 
> At the same time, I realized that hey...wait a minute...other women and a decent number of them actually do find me to be attractive. I was allowing someone who I love dehumanize me not by their rejection alone, but by her lack of even telling me that my issues, wants and needs are even remotely important. It was at that moment I realized that I am allowing myself to be abused by someone who is not even trying to give back what I am putting in. Not only that, but I wasnt even allowed to voice it. At that moment, I decided I was not going to be stifled anymore. My voice was going to be heard or I was not longer going to travel the road of repairing this marriage alone.
> 
> I told her I had enough, and let her know that I had become aware that other women actually want me and I did not have to be stifled and made to feel unimportant with regard to my own needs. I did make sure to say that while ending this is not what I want, I can not and will not allow her to make turn me into the obedient dog who sits quietly in the corner performing at my masters will while swallowing my self of self in fear of her inability to accept my needs as being important. I asked to to please sign the divorce papers and allow me to move on with healing my life. I was all done and throwing in the towel. My love for her was not strong enough to sacrifice my own self. What's that old saying, To thyself be true? Well it's time I do just that. I was always a strong person, and I was a leader. When we met that is the way I was. It's who I am and have been my entire life. It's what attracted her to me to begin with. Through all of this, I slowly allowed her to strip me of that leadership quality. I have become subservient and allowed my self of self worth and pride to be slowly stripped away. I hate to be vulger, but had been handing my balls over one little piece at a time until I had none left. I could no longer allow that to happen, and decided that I had to put an end to it. Just sign the divorce and be on your merry way. I will be devasted, but I will heal. Continuing to do this to myself was more damaging that the break up itself would be.
> 
> That was yesterday, today is here and she is applogizing for not stating my feelings are important. She isnt giving me much more in way of anything other than the same old I love you but I cant feel right now. I'm trying to get there, but I dont know if I ever can again, I hope I can and am willing to try to work it out. So now the decision has to be made, do I accept this and continue to try or do I stick to my guns and say its over. Yesterday was clear, today is not.....Seems to be a pretty common theme and pattern of my life over the last few months.


Anon, let me preface my post by asking you not to take anything I say as an attack, or looking poorly on you (I'm sure you are thinking "oh boy, here we go..." LOL). I feel for you and I think about your situation a lot. Like I stated previously, your situation is why I registered here. The reason I feel vested in this is because my situation was very similar. So please know that my opinion is coming from a caring heart.

Others have said what I'm about to say to you several times, but I'm going to say it again....there's an awful lot in your posts about you...your feelings, how you're hurt/pissed/aggravated and ready to throw in the towel. While I think this is an issue, I know where you're coming from. When you have a wife that says "I have x, y & Z issues so I can't contribute, I love you, but I feel nothing" and then strike out like a viper when you try to get close. Been there bud...I totally know where you are coming from.

You're a man like me...when our women are hurting, we want to fix it. When they can't express what the problem is, we want to fix it even more. When they tell us WE are the problem, but they can't express it...whoa...how can that be so? We've done everything to provide, we're there, we're listening (at least in our world anyway), why can't this just be discussed and fixed? Can't tell me what's wrong? Can't be there for me? You're hurting me, but you don't care because you can't express what's wrong and tell me how to fix it? Fine, I'm done. Yep, I've been there.

Brother, women change. They aren't the same as they were 5, 10, 15 years ago. Also, hormones can do very scary things. Women that bottle things in find themselves in trouble. Women that try to express themselves in the past and get shut down (whether we believe we've done that to them or not) become a mess. 

I found myself trying to fix everything that went wrong in my marriage. I mean, this is my high school sweetheart! We thought about each other all those years apart (due to lies from her best friend), so how could things be bad? She doesn't have regrets or things that bother her, does she? I mean, we're living the dream! Bottom line, I was so hurt that my feelings weren't being dealt with, that I turned a blind eye to her. She was hurting? GOOD! She should hurt. She doesn't care about my feelings. I'm trying to fix this and it's not working. I try to make love to her but she doesn't want it. How could she not want this from her husband? More hurt and resentment. Fine, I'm done (not really but just at the end of my rope). When I got to that point did it scare her into submission? No...made things worse, and made her feel terrible that she couldn't figure this out, and made her feel more alone, and more scared. I was so stupid.

I say this gently...if you're been there for your wife throughout your marriage as you've handled this situation, I can definitely see why your wife has resentments. Sure, she's at fault too, but I see a pattern. You need your feelings validated too, or you reach the end of your rope and you're done. 

What I figured out is this: We vowed to take care of our wives in sickness and in health, no matter what. As men, we have to put our feelings on the back burner and LEAVE THEM THERE, for most of the things you are struggling with, you've created. Yes, I typed that right...you've created a lot of this. You can't believe all the resentment, like helping around the house, leaving socks lying about, etc. Don't you see that these things she is saying are just feeble attempts at reaching the true source of pain? Not helping around the house, etc., may be symptoms of her not feeling appreciated, or worthy. I don't know. There's something bigger there that all the little things are coming from.

Friend, you have two choices. (1) You can walk away. You can enjoy the advances from the other women that made you feel so good. You can throw in the towel and call it quits and move on (it's not as easy as it seems especially if you have children...trust me.) Or (2), you can resolve to stick this out no matter what. If she leaves, then that's her choice. You can say "you know what, I'm strong enough to put my feelings away for now and totally be there for my wife." That doesn't make you the dog sitting in the corner, it makes you a man standing up and doing everything that's necessary to be there for his wife. Is she milking this? I doubt it. Is she terribly confused and going through some type of mental transformation? Likely. I truly believe that if you sit her down and say "ok, here's the deal. You married me, and you're stuck with me. You are the one who came to me, and you are the one that's having trouble. I'm here for you and I'm not going anywhere AS LONG AS I have total honesty. If you hold back from me or lie to me, I will no longer be in your life. Let's figure this out." If she unloads all the resentments on you, then just shut up and listen. LISTEN! Digest it for a day or so. Don't try to take up for yourself and tell her why she's wrong to feel that way. My wife used to do that to me and it's infuriating. Just listen. I bet you that in a lot of instances, you will find that she's right and you will...you WILL get to the heart of what's troubling her. Once you get to that point, you'll find that most of the issues you're fighting regarding your feelings will have vanished, and the real ones that remain she will be more than happy to work through with you. I'm not saying to be a door mat, but be a husband. If she's any kind of decent woman, she'll respect you for it. Make it all about her and help her through this. If she starts to yell and scream, then walk out of the room calmly and just be quiet. Tell her later that you have boundaries and it's counterproductive. But, don't give up on her. Wouldn't you rather go through this and have a stronger marriage that made it through the storm? The guy typing this is beaming with pride that he's in a second marriage, and this one wont fail. He can still remember having that "aha" moment with his wife, and things turning around. It can happen! 

Just try it. 

I hope this all makes sense, and I wish you the best.


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## Tall Average Guy

Fledgling said:


> Well, there it is isn't it? Your needs, your happiness, your wants... You were supposedly blindsided by your wife. Your needs and wants and desires have been met for A LONG TIME. Otherwise you would not have been blindsided. Her needs and wants haven't been met for a long time. How is she controling you exactly? By withholding sex? You see it as controlling. She feels it as self defense. She doesn't want to get close again because she is hurt, not because she wants to hurt you. One minute you sound magnaniomous how you would do anything to save your marriage (like quitting smoking etc). To her she sees it that you are willing to do all the superficial work, but when it comes to rebuilding the foundation of your relationship, not so much. It must seem incredibly patronizing to her. Have you ever been in an argument and someone says "you're right" just to shut them up or to end the argument but you know in your heart that they don't believe it?


I see a lot of projection in this statement. I have not seen much to indicate that all of his needs have been met while none of hers have been. I don't think it is unreasonable for the OP to look to see what he may have missed and what he could do better. But I really don't still don't see the basis to attack him and paint her as the victim on every front.


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## anonymously

Tall Average Guy said:


> I see a lot of projection in this statement. I have not seen much to indicate that all of his needs have been met while none of hers have been. I don't think it is unreasonable for the OP to look to see what he may have missed and what he could do better. But I really don't still don't see the basis to attack him and paint her as the victim on every front.


Could not agree more, I see Fledgling inserting personal experience or views where they dont belong and associating it with me. For that reason, I am discarding that advise. Regardless of how much anyone loves anyone, nobody should ever be humiliated or abused and that especially counts for me. It's one thing to do anything it takes to save a marriage. It's a whole different story to accept any behavior which is demeaning, assaulting, or demoralizing. That is not something I am prepared to do for anyone regardless of how much I love them or how bad it will break my heart. I will walk through glass for my wife, but not if she's the one walking in front of me throwing the glass under my feet. There are times where lines must be drawn, and this is one of those times.


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## wilderness

It was the responsibility of OPs wife to express if she was unhappy or starting to feel unhappy when these issues started. She didn't do it. This is her problem to fix, the way that I see it.


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## MrK

wilderness said:


> The first question I would be asking is: how do you plan on compensating me for the last 5 years of my life? The years that were stolen via deception.


I can't believe I was the only one that caught this. About 3 years ago I started to try to fix what was a rut in my marriage. Although she did and said (mostly) the right things, I could tell her heart wasn't in it. When I would back off, she was right back in front of the TV and turning her back to me in bed. When I'd press again, it was back to, what appeared to me, doing what I wanted just long enough to get me off of her back again.

Well, in one heated exchange, when pressing her for answers, she said a few things. Things meant for me to just shut up and leave her alone. But in that one awful moment, I realized she didn't love me. Hadn't for a long time. As long as 10 years. And not only that, in that one instance, from having been on these forums for a while at that point, I even realized she was never coming back. Kind of the way I felt about Anon's marriage before I even left the first page.

You talk about a blow to the gut. I felt a physical change in me. And not a good one. But back to Wilderness' comment. As my present got crushed and my future became uncertain, my mind kept drifting to the past. The past is history. It can't change, right?

All of those hugs. All of those kisses. All of that snuggling and hand-holding. All of that talk of love and how we were planning our life together. Where will we live. Grandkids. All of that goofy stuff that a man will do and say to a woman who loves him. It's touching when there is love. When no, it's just kind of pathetic.

I love to kiss, and I haven't kissed a woman who has wanted to kiss me in what is now pushing 14 years or more. Of all of the things I hate about her now, stealing the past 14 years from me is the most agonizing. 

14 years of my life, nearly erased.

I knew this script from the first post. Oh, sure. I knew there was a possibility of an OM. But from page 1, if I had to bet $1,000 on if there was an OM, I'd have bet against in a heartbeat.

I'm actually kind of surprised at the "she's cheating" mentality that took over. A lot of veteran posters with a lot of good advice under their belts do not know the power of a walk-away wife (I still hate that term). Maybe until you've lived it, you can't understand. How many of you say "ILYBINILWY = affair 99% of the time". How wrong that is. Most of the time ILYB... means just that. 

And I'm glad the gender war was averted. 99% of the time women say "how could you have been blindsided, I told you EVERY DAY this was my problem". Yet 99% of the time, men are blindsided. 

I'll tell you what. My revelation was probably more powerful than getting the speech. With the speech, you're like, "WHAT? You don't love me? How can that possibly be? And for how long? In this marriage that is the envy of the neighborhood? And it's been like this for HOW LONG? How can I be 50 years old and not know this can happen?

When mine hit, that was the last piece that made the puzzle complete. It was like a movie where all of the tumblers lock into place when you hit that last number in the code. I was devestated.

Thousands of years of marritial evolution, hundreds of years of psychoanalysis, 20 years of internet websites like this and we sill have wives leaving the marriage and not telling their husbands. And most amazingly, people blindsided by it.

I will teach my son's about this. I will try to teach my daughter, but I obviously don't know the female mind. Oprah was onto something when they first started the walk-away discussion on her show. Then Tom Cruize jumped on her couch like an idiot or Madonna or Branjolina adopted a new African baby and we were onto other things. Leaving this discussion undiscussed and with a horrible name (A walk-away is a walk-away precicely because she did NOT walk-away. If she actually PHYSICALLY leaves the marriage, it's something else).

2013 and people STILL don't get this. A lot of ruined lives. The husbands, the wives, the children. And we're STILL not dealing with it when it needs to be dealt with. Months BEFORE "I do". Do you see BEFORE in caps? That is the most important word I have ever typed on this forum. BEFORE they get married.

Good luck Anon, but get out while those chicks are still checking you out. She's not coming back. I'm still putting that $1,000 on it. 

Take it from me: it's a LOT different when you're in your 50's.


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## Fledgling

anonymously said:


> Could not agree more, I see Fledgling inserting personal experience or views where they dont belong and associating it with me. For that reason, I am discarding that advise. Regardless of how much anyone loves anyone, nobody should ever be humiliated or abused and that especially counts for me. It's one thing to do anything it takes to save a marriage. It's a whole different story to accept any behavior which is demeaning, assaulting, or demoralizing. That is not something I am prepared to do for anyone regardless of how much I love them or how bad it will break my heart. I will walk through glass for my wife, but not if she's the one walking in front of me throwing the glass under my feet. There are times where lines must be drawn, and this is one of those times.


I figured at one point you would, Anon. My opinion, of course, has alot of personal backtory. I *defy *anyone here to say that their opinions do not. It is obvious that you come here to hear things that validate *your *opinion. I think it's been very obvious that you want to divorce your wife, and to be so bold, you want to do it by making her out to be the villain in your marriage. You could have just let her go when she wanted to go. But that would have been like admitting she "won". Instead you are going to try to villify her so that when you two finally split up it'll be all her fault and you can wash your hands of your part in the marriage. I understand why you would feel that way. It's a natural response. But it's so saddening because I honestly don't see anything in your marriage that can't be fixed. No affair. No laziness. No physical abuse. And no, no mental or emotional abuse either. I wish you alot of luck. Hope therapy works out for you.


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## Tall Average Guy

Fledgling said:


> I figured at one point you would, Anon. My opinion, of course, has alot of personal backtory. I *defy *anyone here to say that their opinions do not. It is obvious that you come here to hear things that validate *your *opinion. I think it's been very obvious that you want to divorce your wife, and to be so bold, you want to do it by making her out to be the villain in your marriage. You could have just let her go when she wanted to go. But that would have been like admitting she "won". Instead you are going to try to villify her so that when you two finally split up it'll be all her fault and you can wash your hands of your part in the marriage. I understand why you would feel that way. It's a natural response. But it's so saddening because I honestly don't see anything in your marriage that can't be fixed. No affair. No laziness. No physical abuse. And no, no mental or emotional abuse either. I wish you alot of luck. Hope therapy works out for you.


Interesting. I don't see a guy who wants validation for a divorce. I do see a guy who wants validation for the pain and abuse his wife has caused (sorry, telling your spouse you don't love them, have not for five years and that you don't like anything about their personality is in fact abuse).

I also don't see vilification. I do see exasperation over her and the way so many have unfairly laid all the blame at his feet.

For all the talk about how awful the 180 advice was, those who blamed him for everything are no better.


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## Tall Average Guy

anonymously said:


> Could not agree more, I see Fledgling inserting personal experience or views where they dont belong and associating it with me. For that reason, I am discarding that advise. Regardless of how much anyone loves anyone, nobody should ever be humiliated or abused and that especially counts for me. It's one thing to do anything it takes to save a marriage. It's a whole different story to accept any behavior which is demeaning, assaulting, or demoralizing. That is not something I am prepared to do for anyone regardless of how much I love them or how bad it will break my heart. I will walk through glass for my wife, but not if she's the one walking in front of me throwing the glass under my feet. There are times where lines must be drawn, and this is one of those times.


I think you need to tell her this. If you are willing to work on things, I suggest having a calm conversation outlining what you need to do that and asking what she needs from you. I would avoid any harsh words or name calling, but rather note that you are willing to stay and fight but only if she is willing to, for example, do the same. It takes two to work on a marriage, and if that is something she cannot do, then perhaps moving on is best for both of you. 

Think about what reasonable things you need from her and what things you are willing to do for her to work on this together. I understand she has hurt you. That hurt will need to be dealt with. But assuming that it may take some time to get there, think about what initial items need to be there for you two to want to work together.

In that talk, when it comes to her list, listen and don't interrupt, unless it is to ask a clarifying question. She may need some time to think of them and that is fair. Perhaps writing them down would help you.

If you two do decide to work on this, I have some additional thoughts and suggestions to consider.


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## Fledgling

Tall Average Guy said:


> Interesting. I don't see a guy who wants validation for a divorce. I do see a guy who wants validation for the pain and abuse his wife has caused (sorry, telling your spouse you don't love them, have not for five years and that you don't like anything about their personality is in fact abuse).
> 
> I also don't see vilification. I do see exasperation over her and the way so many have unfairly laid all the blame at his feet.
> For all the talk about how awful the 180 advice was, those who blamed him for everything are no better.


I know that my opinion isn't welcome anymore and I don't want to hijack this thread. So this'll be my last reponse. She is NOT abusing him. She has said many hurtful things but this does not indicate a pattern of abuse. He has admitted that he has "lost his cool" with her and that things became ugly. I bet if you asked her he said some hurtful things about her as well. At the very least his own words *here *have indicated how absurd he thinks her feelings are. In fact OP has admitted that he would make a great catch for another woman. So clearly she does have some respect for him.

I do not blame OP for everything. You can look at all my posts where I clearly state that he has been trying through out his marriage to be a good husband. He will claim that he is "only human" when he releases his rage upon her "every once in a while" but there is very little grace or empathy for her on the same front. Instead he is "only human" while she is "abusive". He is "not perfect" while she is "bat crap crazy". These are his thoughts. Even if he never says it to her face this is what he is communicating to her. I never claimed to be better than anyone, ever. Neither has CBL or Bearded Lion or anyone else for that matter. I never even said a 180 wouldn't work for everyone. I just think, in this particular situation, a 180 isn't perhaps the best method. (Which seems to be born out as he makes headway and then backslides significantly.)

You don't have to agree, and neither does Anon (he has said as much) I am just offering a different perspective. That's all. No pressure. Anon, has chosen which advice he wants to follow. I do hope it works.


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## anonymously

AWsman said:


> Anon, let me preface my post by asking you not to take anything I say as an attack, or looking poorly on you (I'm sure you are thinking "oh boy, here we go..." LOL). I feel for you and I think about your situation a lot. Like I stated previously, your situation is why I registered here. The reason I feel vested in this is because my situation was very similar. So please know that my opinion is coming from a caring heart.
> 
> Others have said what I'm about to say to you several times, but I'm going to say it again....there's an awful lot in your posts about you...your feelings, how you're hurt/pissed/aggravated and ready to throw in the towel. While I think this is an issue, I know where you're coming from. When you have a wife that says "I have x, y & Z issues so I can't contribute, I love you, but I feel nothing" and then strike out like a viper when you try to get close. Been there bud...I totally know where you are coming from.
> 
> You're a man like me...when our women are hurting, we want to fix it. When they can't express what the problem is, we want to fix it even more. When they tell us WE are the problem, but they can't express it...whoa...how can that be so? We've done everything to provide, we're there, we're listening (at least in our world anyway), why can't this just be discussed and fixed? Can't tell me what's wrong? Can't be there for me? You're hurting me, but you don't care because you can't express what's wrong and tell me how to fix it? Fine, I'm done. Yep, I've been there.
> 
> Brother, women change. They aren't the same as they were 5, 10, 15 years ago. Also, hormones can do very scary things. Women that bottle things in find themselves in trouble. Women that try to express themselves in the past and get shut down (whether we believe we've done that to them or not) become a mess.
> 
> I found myself trying to fix everything that went wrong in my marriage. I mean, this is my high school sweetheart! We thought about each other all those years apart (due to lies from her best friend), so how could things be bad? She doesn't have regrets or things that bother her, does she? I mean, we're living the dream! Bottom line, I was so hurt that my feelings weren't being dealt with, that I turned a blind eye to her. She was hurting? GOOD! She should hurt. She doesn't care about my feelings. I'm trying to fix this and it's not working. I try to make love to her but she doesn't want it. How could she not want this from her husband? More hurt and resentment. Fine, I'm done (not really but just at the end of my rope). When I got to that point did it scare her into submission? No...made things worse, and made her feel terrible that she couldn't figure this out, and made her feel more alone, and more scared. I was so stupid.
> 
> I say this gently...if you're been there for your wife throughout your marriage as you've handled this situation, I can definitely see why your wife has resentments. Sure, she's at fault too, but I see a pattern. You need your feelings validated too, or you reach the end of your rope and you're done.
> 
> What I figured out is this: We vowed to take care of our wives in sickness and in health, no matter what. As men, we have to put our feelings on the back burner and LEAVE THEM THERE, for most of the things you are struggling with, you've created. Yes, I typed that right...you've created a lot of this. You can't believe all the resentment, like helping around the house, leaving socks lying about, etc. Don't you see that these things she is saying are just feeble attempts at reaching the true source of pain? Not helping around the house, etc., may be symptoms of her not feeling appreciated, or worthy. I don't know. There's something bigger there that all the little things are coming from.
> 
> Friend, you have two choices. (1) You can walk away. You can enjoy the advances from the other women that made you feel so good. You can throw in the towel and call it quits and move on (it's not as easy as it seems especially if you have children...trust me.) Or (2), you can resolve to stick this out no matter what. If she leaves, then that's her choice. You can say "you know what, I'm strong enough to put my feelings away for now and totally be there for my wife." That doesn't make you the dog sitting in the corner, it makes you a man standing up and doing everything that's necessary to be there for his wife. Is she milking this? I doubt it. Is she terribly confused and going through some type of mental transformation? Likely. I truly believe that if you sit her down and say "ok, here's the deal. You married me, and you're stuck with me. You are the one who came to me, and you are the one that's having trouble. I'm here for you and I'm not going anywhere AS LONG AS I have total honesty. If you hold back from me or lie to me, I will no longer be in your life. Let's figure this out." If she unloads all the resentments on you, then just shut up and listen. LISTEN! Digest it for a day or so. Don't try to take up for yourself and tell her why she's wrong to feel that way. My wife used to do that to me and it's infuriating. Just listen. I bet you that in a lot of instances, you will find that she's right and you will...you WILL get to the heart of what's troubling her. Once you get to that point, you'll find that most of the issues you're fighting regarding your feelings will have vanished, and the real ones that remain she will be more than happy to work through with you. I'm not saying to be a door mat, but be a husband. If she's any kind of decent woman, she'll respect you for it. Make it all about her and help her through this. If she starts to yell and scream, then walk out of the room calmly and just be quiet. Tell her later that you have boundaries and it's counterproductive. But, don't give up on her. Wouldn't you rather go through this and have a stronger marriage that made it through the storm? The guy typing this is beaming with pride that he's in a second marriage, and this one wont fail. He can still remember having that "aha" moment with his wife, and things turning around. It can happen!
> 
> Just try it.
> 
> I hope this all makes sense, and I wish you the best.


Thanks AWsman, I truly do appreaciate the insight and I'm glad you were able to work it out and be there for your wife. It takes a big man to put his feelings and issues aside completely like you did, certainly your wife did recognize that. 

I tried what you did and I did try to be the bigger and better man. It's gotten me nowhere. I approached it from the same perspective initially, until I found there were text messages on her phone between her and female friend that she was deleting so that I would not see them. I asked her for complete honesty and openness and she did not offer that. I dont see any initiative in her wanting to deal with her issues, she doesnt do the excersizes the councelor has given her. Without a 100% commitment to this marriage and to working on it I am just being strung along. We came to this place because of her not being open and communicating, her willingness to be open now and communicate now are an integral part to this. As long as she is unwilling to do so, I am not going to stick around. She displays that she clearly doesnt want to be with but then the next breath doesnt want me to leave? Why because as much as she doesnt want to be with right now, the alternative of getting off her ass and trying to make it without me working is scarier and more difficult than the prospect of keeping me hanging around. Well I am done with that. If there was ever a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it too well then this it. 

I am not a meal ticket, I am not a convenience, and I am certainly not in a marriage where my only value is what I can bring to the table ecomonicly speaking. No sir, that for me is over. If she truly wants to save this, then she needs to at least step up to work on it together from a point of openness, honesty and understanding. Until she does that, if she ever does then this is over for me. 

I can hold back a lot, but dishonesty and not being open while using me and not wanting to be with with me is not something I am going to accept at all. I realize that everyone is trying to piece this together to form their own opinions based on personal experiences but remember its impossible to fill in every single detail on here. Do I have my own short comings, of course I do. Could I have done more around the house? Perhpaps, perhaps not...How much would you have done around the house if you were working 6 days+ a week doing your job and your wifes with an everage work day of 14-16 hours? Probably not much. 

The idea that I should have known to do certain things while keeping that kind of work load without any communication from her to the contrary is absurd and nothing short of an excuse to keep doing what she is doing. Did I do everything just right, of course not I'm not perfect and nobody is either. Did I do everything that she communicated she expected me to do either by her word or impied signals? Yes I did exactly what she was communicating which was go out and be the hunter and providor four our family. 

Untill she is willing to put both feet in the door so to speak, this drama is over and I am moving forward with taking the steps necassary to move on with my life. The environment she is creating is too toxic and its become a viscious cycle of attack while I defend. That cycle breaks now either by mutual work to repair or by my bringing an end to it. As of this moment, she has to the power to stop it and keep me from leaving. If she doesnt, then that will be her decision to live with for the remainder of her life. I have no doubt that someday she will wake up and regret it, but that will be her cross to bear at some point in her future.


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## KanDo

Anon,

I am so sorry for your current state of affairs. I would recommend you do a number of things in quick order.
1) see your attorney and learn your rights and the process in your state. Work on getting the filing together
2) Look harder for evidence of an affair. I would bet dollars to donuts that is what is going on.
3) heed the advice noted above. DO NOT BEG PLEAD OR TRY TO CHANGE HER MIND! Be happy. And if you are not, pretend that you are
4) Begin the 180 (see the threads on this site). Shee needs to feel the impact of being with out you
5) Go out. Be mysterious. You don't have to date, but show her that you will be fine without her.
6) Suggest a mediated divorce. Depending on your state, the property division and support may be fairly standardized. No need to make two layers richer.

Go luck my friend


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## anonymously

Fledgling said:


> I know that my opinion isn't welcome anymore and I don't want to hijack this thread. So this'll be my last reponse. She is NOT abusing him. She has said many hurtful things but this does not indicate a pattern of abuse. He has admitted that he has "lost his cool" with her and that things became ugly. I bet if you asked her he said some hurtful things about her as well. At the very least his own words *here *have indicated how absurd he thinks her feelings are. In fact OP has admitted that he would make a great catch for another woman. So clearly she does have some respect for him.
> 
> I do not blame OP for everything. You can look at all my posts where I clearly state that he has been trying through out his marriage to be a good husband. He will claim that he is "only human" when he releases his rage upon her "every once in a while" but there is very little grace or empathy for her on the same front. Instead he is "only human" while she is "abusive". He is "not perfect" while she is "bat crap crazy". These are his thoughts. Even if he never says it to her face this is what he is communicating to her. I never claimed to be better than anyone, ever. Neither has CBL or Bearded Lion or anyone else for that matter. I never even said a 180 wouldn't work for everyone. I just think, in this particular situation, a 180 isn't perhaps the best method. (Which seems to be born out as he makes headway and then backslides significantly.)
> 
> You don't have to agree, and neither does Anon (he has said as much) I am just offering a different perspective. That's all. No pressure. Anon, has chosen which advice he wants to follow. I do hope it works.


Again, you presume and predjudice too much. Prior to this, I have never been an angry person nor have I ever so much as screamed at my wife or called her insults. When I do scream at the situation its from a defensive position after being attacked as human being and not from a malicious or resentful place. On the other hand she has screamed horrible things in the heat of her moments such as why dont you go off and die? If that is not abuse, then please define for me what is? Should I wait to be hit in the head with a frying pan? 

It is not that you are not welcome here, although you can go away if you like. It is that you are insterting too much of your personal experience and not taking an objective perspective. Did i respond back to the why dont you go off and die? You bet your ass I did, because at that point if there is nothing left to say short of Why dont you go F yourself and get as far away from me as possible. Defense to abuse, verbal or otherwise is not anything for anyone male or female to ever be ashamed of or feel bad about. Regardless of marriages working, failing, or otherwise everyone is valuable as a human being and as a person, myself being no exception. I have zero tollerance for anything else, neither should anyone else.


----------



## anonymously

KanDo said:


> Anon,
> 
> I am so sorry for your current state of affairs. I would recommend you do a number of things in quick order.
> 1) see your attorney and learn your rights and the process in your state. Work on getting the filing together
> 2) Look harder for evidence of an affair. I would bet dollars to donuts that is what is going on.
> 3) heed the advice noted above. DO NOT BEG PLEAD OR TRY TO CHANGE HER MIND! Be happy. And if you are not, pretend that you are
> 4) Begin the 180 (see the threads on this site). Shee needs to feel the impact of being with out you
> 5) Go out. Be mysterious. You don't have to date, but show her that you will be fine without her.
> 6) Suggest a mediated divorce. Depending on your state, the property division and support may be fairly standardized. No need to make two layers richer.
> 
> Go luck my friend


Thanks KanDo,

already began much of this process. Met with 4 Attorney's and paid the consult fee, so I know that the 4 best ones from most expensive to least expensive are off the table for her now.

Financially, I have all 4 corners covered. She has dillusions of grandure for what she thinks she might try to do or get, but reality is that if doesnt keep it amicable she will owe me more than I owe her. I have no worries in that department

I have started to look at places with a plan to be ready to go by some time in next 60 days. 

The 180 is a hard one because we still have some business together which means a total cold shoulder is not possible right now but I have started treating any new business differently and serperating it from her completely. Unless I want total financial ruin, I have to bear with this and phase out over the next several months so she can seperate her business from mine.

I am no longer asking anything about her staying, I am not the begging type and never will be. I reiterated that I am more than willing to work through it and be there for her, but only under the strict circumstance of some basic conditions and requirements that I have. There is zero negotation on the things that I expect from a happy marriage. If there needs to be any, then its not a marriage I need or want. 

I have not file anything just yet, I dont want to be in the same home with her when she gets served. But if the path does end with me leaving, this will follow shortly after. 

With regard to any affair, it's truly going to end with being divorced regardless what does it matter? I dont believe there is one happening, but who knows I could be wrong. If there is and she is not honest about it, she never will be. Proving it provides no benefit, we are in a no fault state. If we stay together I would have to prove to myself there wasnt one, if we divorce what the heck does it matter? Proving it wont change anything.

Assets? Not worth the fight, the home is upside down like millions of others. You want it, fine? You dont I'll stay and keep it. If she stays I quit paying, since I have to pay for my own roof. Then its simple, put it up for a short sale and get my name off of it so I can recover quiker. Credit will tank, but it will recover faster than I will. Not the end of the world, been there and done that.


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## Blonde

Another marriage bites the dust. Good job TAM! 

Anon, Would you be willing to try this before you pull the trigger?

Marriage Help Program For Couples


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## Blonde

Anon,

You and your "support group" are all over Fledgling for "projecting". I see everyone who has insisted that she is having an affair as "projecting". AND they have convinced you to follow in their footsteps to the divorce court. :2gunsfiring_v1:


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## anonymously

Blonde said:


> Anon,
> 
> You and your "support group" are all over Fledgling for "projecting". I see everyone who has insisted that she is having an affair as "projecting". AND they have convinced you to follow in their footsteps to the divorce court. :2gunsfiring_v1:


Blonde, 

last thing I want is a divorce. I cant fix it alone, she has to be a willing particpant beyond just sitting on the couch at home and not talking about. Attatcking me or telling me she wishes I would go off and die are not synonimous wth trying to stay together and repair our marriage. I am not rushing to divorce court but if the environment stays toxic I have to remove myself and possibly my child from it. The angrier she becomes the more I see it spilling over with her screaming at my young child. That is toxic and unhealthy and bad for our child's well being. What else can I do at that point and remove myself from that? At least if i'm not there maybe she might calm down and it wont be taken out on my child because of her own frustrations.....

Oh an for what it is worth, I dont truly believe that she is having an affair and wont unless I see something to the contrary. I do however believe there is a 3rd baseman or basewoman in the mix somewhere that I dont know about.


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## keko

Blonde said:


> Anon,
> 
> You and your "support group" are all over Fledgling for "projecting". I see everyone who has insisted that she is having an affair as "projecting". AND they have convinced you to follow in their footsteps to the divorce court. :2gunsfiring_v1:


Majority of marriages in today's world go through episode's of infidelity, you can either believe your own projection or the very unfortunate reality.

Off the top of my head I can count at least 10 threads where the OP came here asking advice with very similar questions as in this thread only to uncover his/her spouse was cheating all along.


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## MrK

Blonde said:


> Another marriage bites the dust. Good job TAM!


I will take that as a compliment as opposed to the intended sarcasm.

And I, for one, don't think there is an affair.


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## alte Dame

Good luck, anonymously!

I think you have tried hard and there is no law that says you must prostrate and sacrifice yourself emotionally and forever for an entitled spouse who only takes and sees giving as an unreasonable sacrifice.

Ignore the people who blindly chastise you, and go do what you need to do. Remember that in marriage you don't just honor your spouse. You have to honor yourself. Life as a doormat is overrated.


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## KanDo

Blonde said:


> Anon,
> 
> You and your "support group" are all over Fledgling for "projecting". I see everyone who has insisted that she is having an affair as "projecting". AND they have convinced you to follow in their footsteps to the divorce court. :2gunsfiring_v1:


Interesting position. Of course your post could just as easily be pointed at you. The difference is the enormous collection of empiric evidence right here in TAM that support my "projection" over yours. But let's not get mislead by facts.

I for one, did not advocate a trip to divorce court. Rather I recommended the OP arm himself and prepare for what seems to be the most likely outcome. The 180 and uncovering an affair are tools to potential save the marriage (if that is the OP's desire).


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## anchorwatch

Blonde said:


> Anon,
> 
> You and your "support group" are all over Fledgling for "projecting". I see everyone who has insisted that she is having an affair as "projecting". AND they have convinced you to follow in their footsteps to the divorce court. :2gunsfiring_v1:


I am in support of the OP, with my opinions. As that is what he asked for. I for one, don't see an affair.

I don't know who's footsteps you speak of. I'm vehemently pro-marriage, but not at all cost. 

I have yet to say anything to or about the poster you speak of, their opinion's or those of anyone else. Yet at times, that poster is quick to the trigger to denounce other's opinions she doesn't find agreeable with her own. IMHO, That just may be the reason that she needs to defend herself about how she is treated on this board. One should at least be respectful enough not to continue or quip about it, if the OP were to ask them to step away from the thread. 

I believe one's opinion should stand on it's own. I don't think one needs to demonstrate that their opinion is valid by knocking down others's and a constant barrage of last words. As this is not the first thread this has occurred and high-jacked. 

Sorry if I'm moving away from the common civil idea of point, counter point and then let the reader or OP decide. I believe that you don't have to knock down every house on the block to have the biggest.

Respectfully IMO.


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## Fledgling

My point is NOT to cause antagonism. I don't want to beat a dead horse either. If Anon wants to discard my advice there's no sense in my continuing to give it. I'm not picking up my toys and going home. I simply don't think my presence always provides a condusive environment. I can't help who I am or my "projections" any more than anyone else here. I know that Anon isn't kicking me out  

As far as point/counterpoint I've tried as best I can to respond to Anon's own words. I'm not here to get into an argument with other posters feeling as though they have to jump in on his behalf. I have alot of respect for everyone on this board, actually.

Anon, you have to be honest with yourself. Now more than ever. I know that you think that you are being honest about the "reality" of your situation but all your posts are clouded with supposition regarding your wife. I believe I warned you at the outset that if you wanted to leave to do so right away. But I don't think you were ever really honest about your desire to make this work with your wife. You have often refereneced your ability and desire to walk through glass for your wife but you never defined exactly what the glass looked like until you saw your own reflections in the shards under your feet.

ComicBookLady has given you alot of great advice. Plus she has the added benefit of not being a party pooper like me.  You moved too fast with your wife. You expected something back right away after what you freely admit was a great night of dancing. But you weren't content to spend quality time with your wife. You were keeping a mental tally in your head/heart. Yes, you gave her a great night out but you also got that great night out, too! Then you want to become intimate very soon after. You see to her you guys were even. She had a good time. You had a good time. Then you upped the ante and used your night out (in your mind) as a bargaining chip. Like she owed you for being ever so gracious as to do what all men should want to do with their wives ANYWAY. I can almost gaurantee that is how she saw that debacle. And now that good night out is tainted for her.

You said you are taking the four best attorneys away from her, she can have a house that's underwater etc etc and I am just shaking my head. She has said she wanted a divorce but has she taken any moves in that direction? Did I miss something in your posts where you found her secret stash of divorce papers, or heard her on the phone with a lawyer or anything like that? She can scream all that she wants that she can take everything if she wanted to (which I bet was said during the heat of an argument). If she was ready to bail on the marriage and truly believed that she would have dumped you like a hot potato. YOU are the one *actively *taking steps to divorce HER. 

From what I can see her major fault is that she said some very hurtful things to you and you've had a diminished sex life. You, on the other hand, have taken steps from coming here, to contacting attorneys, to snooping and spying, to looking for apartments. etc etc etc. these are not the actions of a man who has any empathy for his wife or has any real intention of saving his marriage.. You are still making excuses that anything that you say and do is in "self defense" and therefore legitimate, but you will not extend that grace to the woman you promised to cherish.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling hurt and betrayed and exhausted. Any normal person would. And let's face it. You know she loves you. If she didn't you would not be able to hurt her. She would have been gone a long time ago.

The only thing that can heal your marriage is time and a bottomless well of grace.

I know that you think that I am projecting but everyone here does. I don't know that I can be more succinct that what I wrote above. I just don't want arguments between myself and other posters and I certainly don't want you to feel dumped upon. I'll just try to contain myself to posting every once in while. Hopefully even more when you say you and your wife have reconciled!


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## alte Dame

I don't know how this thread became such an ego trip for a handful of posters, but it hasn't served OP, in my opinion. The issue is between anonymous and his W, not anonymous and two of the posters here. The point should be to give him the benefit of the experience of a range of people, not beat him over the head to get him to yield to one point of view.

And, contrary to what's been asserted, it is very possible to be more succinct than some of the posts here.


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## btdt

There's been one key word that's cropped up in Anon's last few posts that needs to be emphasized, that word is abuse. I think Anon could have put up with a lot of things (the lack of intimacy, saying that she doesn't love him, etc.), but the growing hostility and verbal abuse really seems to represent the final straw. His wife is not only directing that abuse towards him but also now towards their child as well. That type of behavior is simply inexcusible.

Several of you have strongly pushed a position that these issues are of Anon's doing, and that if he will only listen to his wife and selflessly work to resolve the issues causing her resentment that the marriage will can be saved. I'm sure all of you mean well and are doubtlessly drawing upon your own personal situation. But I can't help to think that if Anon were a women and the word abuse was used, that you wouldn't be telling him to get out of the marriage as fast as possible.


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## anonymously

btdt said:


> There's been one key word that's cropped up in Anon's last few posts that needs to be emphasized, that word is abuse. I think Anon could have put up with a lot of things (the lack of intimacy, saying that she doesn't love him, etc.), but the growing hostility and verbal abuse really seems to represent the final straw. His wife is not only directing that abuse towards him but also now towards their child as well. That type of behavior is simply inexcusible.
> 
> Several of you have strongly pushed a position that these issues are of Anon's doing, and that if he will only listen to his wife and selflessly work to resolve the issues causing her resentment that the marriage will can be saved. I'm sure all of you mean well and are doubtlessly drawing upon your own personal situation. But I can't help to think that if Anon were a women and the word abuse was used, that you wouldn't be telling him to get out of the marriage as fast as possible.


Exactly! Thank you very much. Resolution, working to save something worth saving is one thing, abuse is entirely different.


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## ComicBookLady

Ugh! I'm away for awhile and now there's too much for me to read through to catch up!

First though, I came across THIS ARTICLE yesterday that reminded me of OP's situation pretty closely. Hopefully it can help clarify what I've been trying to say, and it has some good advice (though I'm not religious, the messages are great) .

A snippet to show how I feel it mirrors OP's situation:



> “Why did she leave?” I asked.
> 
> “I don’t know,” he said. “Karen hasn’t been happy in our marriage for a long time. But, I can’t figure her out. Mid-life crisis, I guess.”
> 
> “Sounds like a lot more than a mid-life crisis,” I said. “You said she’s been unhappy for a long time.”
> 
> “Yeah,” Darin said slowly, considering my words. “But, she’s never told me exactly what she wants me to do differently. How am I supposed to know what she wants?”
> 
> “Well, you’re not supposed to read her mind,” I said. “However, you are supposed to listen carefully to her. I wonder if your wife has told you many times, in many different ways, what she needs, and you haven’t really been listening?”
> 
> Darin winced at my words. I watched in silence as he considered the possibility.
> 
> “She says she’s told me, but I don’t really think she has,” Darin said softly.
> 
> Darin was in genuine pain. His marriage of 25 years seemed to be slipping out of his grasp. A long-term marriage, three grown children, a lovely home, and a pile of dreams for his later years were all drifting away. This was all because his wife was unhappy, and he didn’t see the warning signs.


With all due respect and caring for you Anonymously, by fault of BOTH of you, the final issue is that you haven't met her needs for _years_. Now to fix this you need to do some serious interior work and self change that pride will only hinder you from completing. Witholding effort on your side because you think the other person isn't doing enough on their side is a valid want/feeling, but in this case it will lead to certain divorce. You must stop keeping score, and looking to her efforts to gauge how much _you_ put in if you want to truly do all you can to fix your marriage. If you've pulled out all the stops DESPITE what she's doing and she still is resisting (which I doubt she will), then divorce will happen, but you'll honestly know you did all _you_ could.

As to the abuse, while both of you have certainly used verbally abusive language, I don't think either of you are truly abusive. You both seem like normal people having difficulty with the painful emotions of this situation. I think both of you need help coping, and to help stop the behavior. But I hope you're not using the term abuse to keep you from working on yourself in this situation.

And in a strange way, her anger is a certain indicator that she loves you strongly still (not that it's okay to be verbally abusive of course).

Despite everything, I really do sincerely hope you and your wife will find happiness further down the road, whether together or alone. And I hope you can both reconcile to a place that is happy for your child.


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## ComicBookLady

And for the other posters, a few of you I absolutely loved discussing respectfully differing opinions, and I thank you for it!

There are some here who seemed really _threatened_ by other viewpoints (not just in this thread but aaaalllll across TAM), and therefore try to diminish others advice by label the person as "projecting" or any other descriptive words. Doing this is as if to say that person's advice is less valid because it comes from a place you don't agree with. This is a very disrespectful thing to do. I don't agree with all the 180, "she's cheating" stuff, but that doesn't mean it's any less valid than my own viewpoint.

Most people give advice by drawing on their own experiences, and most people here ARE projecting, that doesn't mean what they say is untrue or invalid. Treat other's opinions the same way you would want your own treated, please.


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## alte Dame

The issue with the course this thread has taken is not one of projection, in my opinion. We all project. We do this because all human behavior falls within a finite set of possible human behaviors. We identify within this set and extrapolate. This is social science 101.

No, the issue for me is the generation of walls of text in which OP is essentially battered with a reading of his situation and with advice that he apparently simply doesn't agree with. When I first read his post, I used my own knowledge of human behavior to suggest that his W might be having an affair. Much of her behavior is typical of women in affairs. OP says that he is pretty sure that that is not the case, so fair enough. I don't continue to insist relentlessly that it must be true or he must believe it or ...whatever. I don't insist anything, because I've stated my opinion and respected his. I believe that some of the posters here are simply not respecting that this is OP's thread and the discussion should be his, not theirs.


----------



## Blonde

anonymously said:


> Blonde,
> 
> last thing I want is a divorce. I cant fix it alone, she has to be a willing particpant beyond just sitting on the couch at home and not talking about. Attatcking me or telling me she wishes I would go off and die are not synonimous wth trying to stay together and repair our marriage. I am not rushing to divorce court but if the environment stays toxic I have to remove myself and possibly my child from it. The angrier she becomes the more I see it spilling over with her screaming at my young child. That is toxic and unhealthy and bad for our child's well being. What else can I do at that point and remove myself from that? At least if i'm not there maybe she might calm down and it wont be taken out on my child because of her own frustrations.....
> 
> Oh an for what it is worth, I dont truly believe that she is having an affair and wont unless I see something to the contrary. I do however believe there is a 3rd baseman or basewoman in the mix somewhere that I dont know about.



Send her the link and ask if she would be willing to attend with you. Make sure to attend the post sessions- worth their weight in gold. and totally FREE!

You do realize that she will ALWAYS be the mother of the children? And is likely to have shared custody?

From my own experience having gone through a season of extreme anger with my husband, I agree with ComicBookLady. And the MC also told him. The ones who are angry CARE, and there's hope. It's the apathetic ones where there is no hope.

NOW, instead of getting defensive and attacking back (like he used to) my husband has learned some effective techniques of listening to me (from Retrouvaille). And Anon, my anger is very very close to passion and easily turns in that direction if he LISTENS to me. I described how this works in our marriage (30 years in October) here.


----------



## Blonde

Don't believe me? 

Here is marriage researcher John Gottman:

Embrace Her Anger


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## Blonde

Anon,

On TAM, I've seen marriage "advice" that ends in marriage failure and the 40ish father of two banging a 22 yo in the marital bed when the ink is not dry on the divorce.

I see where you had the babes lookin at you and you feel pulled in that direction. You can go that way and the other fella who is doing that has a lot of groupies and "moral" support for the sexcapades, but don't do that and pretend that you "love" your wife and did everything in your power to save the marriage. That isn't "love".

OTH, how about listening to couples who have been through the worst kind of marital struggles, betrayal, etc and come out the other side a stronger, more bonded couple with an intact family? Retrouvaille has a success rate of approximately 85%.

And with that, I'm unsubscribing because it makes me heartsick to watch how these threads seem to go....


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## btdt

Blonde said:


> Don't believe me?
> 
> Here is marriage researcher John Gottman:
> 
> Embrace Her Anger


In this article, Gottman's best advice to the husband is to embrace his wife's anger. His best advice to a wife is to be persistent is getting her husband to face continuing areas of disagreement in the marriage. He also noted that withdrawal by either party is one of three disfunctional approaches to addressing these issues.

I think Anon would tell you that for the better part of the last five years, that his wife wasn't expressing a lot of clear verbal anger for him to embrace. It doesn't appear that she was persistent in getting her husband to face their areas of disagreement. He would probably also feel that her primary manner of dealing with her disagreements during this time has been avoiding or withdrawing from the conflicts rather than addressing them.

Now that her anger has started to emerge, it's not simply being expressed as anger towards his behavior. If that were the case, I think Anon would feel he could work through those issues. But she is also expressing contempt for him as a person through such statements that she's never liked his personality or she wishes he would die. Furthermore, some of her anger is now being completely misdirected towards their child. It's one thing for her to say angry things to Anon, it's a completely different thing to direct her wrath at their child.

Rather than proving your point, the Gottman article points to some very clear things that the wife has done to contribute to the demise of the marriage. Reconciling is probably not simply a matter of Anon learning to listen to his wife and working on resolving her resentments. His wife really needs to learn a lot about resolving conflict, communication, handling resentment and appropriately channeling her anger. She's going to need to learn those skills regardless of whether she reconciles with Anon or if she eventually enters into another relationship.


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## DTO

ComicBookLady said:


> This help me understand better how you view the situation (so thank you!).
> 
> The big difference between my theory and what many in this thread (and OP) believe, is I think she is _unable_ (not purposefully witholding) to efficiently reciprocate energy for their marriage UNTIL that wall of hers comes down and the love and energy returns. Right now she is "unable to feel" (truth), and in this state you _cannot_ layer expectations and demands without driving her over that last speed bump to divorce. He DOES need to do the heavy lifting until her love/energy returns. Once she feels love and energy again, she can work on her side efficiently.
> 
> I understand it's hard to comprehend what I'm trying to say unless you've personally lived it. On the surface it seems unfair for OP and easy to defend him. But I'm talking about the bigger picture. What I see is he has ONE PATH to fix this marriage, and he HAS to push aside pride, resentments, and expectations to do it. If he chooses not to? That's his choice. But I'm certain marriage will end, and that would be terrible to see.
> 
> Thank you again for the discussion! :smthumbup:


I have lived it, so I hear what you are saying. But, I think you are overlooking a couple of things here.

One, you imply Anon's goal should be saving the marriage, not to ensure he is being treated well. You said that seeing the end of his marriage would be terrible. I was in a similar situation and am much happier single. The true shame here would be for OP to stay married to someone who treats him in that manner.

Two, you haven't thought through the consequences of Anon's capitulation. Let's say he does suck it up, eats her crap, and gets pass this crisis. What happens then? Now that Anon's wife thinks he will put up with this behavior, what motivation does she have to change? What does Anon do the next time his wife treats him like crap (by unloading on him, refusing sex, etc.)?

It's apparent (to me anyways) that his wife has issues. For the marriage to succeed long-term, she absolutely must be willing to do as much for him as he does for her. She must overcome her tendency to lash out and strive for basic fairness, something she is unwilling to do.

I think the wife needs a wake-up call. Anon should proceed with divorce if his wife will not adjust her behavior. It will take many months at least to complete. If she wants to fix the marriage, she can get the help she needs to manage her anger and be a full partner in the marriage.


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## Tall Average Guy

Fledgling said:


> From what I can see her major fault is that she said some very hurtful things to you and you've had a diminished sex life.


I agree with much of your post (in particular that the OP is expecting too much too fast), yet find this sentence the crux of the issue I have with your advice. You sweep away her horrible conduct as merely saying some very hurtful things and having less sex. If her behavior were truly limited to that, I would agree he was over-reacting. Yet it is not what she did. Her statements were not just very hurtful, but close to kill shots for a spouse. They call in to doubt her every word, as she admitted that she has lied for the past five years. 

How is he suppose to do all these things that you (and others) expect of him when (1) he now knows she is capable of lying in that manner and (2) she is not willing to do much if any of the work?


----------



## Fledgling

Tall Average Guy said:


> I agree with much of your post (in particular that the OP is expecting too much too fast), yet find this sentence the crux of the issue I have with your advice. You sweep away her horrible conduct as merely saying some very hurtful things and having less sex. If her behavior were truly limited to that, I would agree he was over-reacting. Yet it is not what she did. Her statements were not just very hurtful, but close to kill shots for a spouse. They call in to doubt her every word, as she admitted that she has lied for the past five years.
> 
> How is he suppose to do all these things that you (and others) expect of him when (1) he now knows she is capable of lying in that manner and (2) she is not willing to do much if any of the work?



I hate when people other than the poster quote me because I feel compelled to respond, but I also don't want to hijack a thread. 

She didn't admit she "lied". She admitted that her husband was a good husband and that she tried sticking it out while her feelings were deteriorating. In essence she was kinda doing what OP is doing right now. Doing all the superficial work by keeping up the house and raising their daughter the way a "good wife should" (but not addressing the underlying issues.) That's a far cry from "lying to Anon" which carries the implicit message that she was somehow trying to dupe him for some evil or machiavellan purpose. She knew she had it good and couldn't (and probably didn't) even understand her own emotions at the time. That is not _lying_. That is being confused and not wanting to blow up her marriage for no good reason. If she did anything wrong, it was apparently not having a crystal ball to see where her actions were leading her. It seems obvious in hindsight that her not communicating with Anon could lead to poor results, but I am almost positive that she was living in the moment and at the time she was just trying to keep her marriage together. 

As to the "kill shot" hurtful words. She does not appear to have a history of being abusive to her husband or her child. In fact almost everything (except the ILYBINILWY) came _after _the fact when Anon's feelings were hurt and he was now engaging her in arguments or questioning her feelings in an aggressive manner. He appears quite dismissive here, so I imagine she has picked up on that. Arguments don't get that ugly without two people participating in the mudslinging and patronizing as a general rule. Also Anon has conveniently not posted the ugly things he has said and, also conveniently, gives himself an out by saying he is "only human". He wants her to do half the work but I do not feel that he can honestly say that he is truly doing half the work himself. In fact this whole "half the work" line is a little ridiculous.

As CBL said above as soon as his wife said ILBINILWY Anon started keeping score. He says "half" the work based on that mental tally instead of what she is capable of giving to him in any given situation. In terms of a marriage "half the work" is really an average. In fact most spouses have to work harder at one point in the marriage than the other. Then, later, the other partner picks up the slack (thinks sickness, or finances, or parental responsibilities) emotional dilemmas are really no different. Marriage all shakes out in the end if you have commitment, grace, and are willing to put in the time.

Of course there are marriages that are notoriously unequal (affairs and actual abuse) but I just haven't seen that in Anon's posts. Anon has admitted that they reached many of their decisions about house and home as equal partners.


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## Tall Average Guy

Fledgling said:


> I hate when people other than the poster quote me because I feel compelled to respond, but I also don't want to hijack a thread.


I think it is useful as it gives the OP (and others who read it) different perspectives, as well as providing a chance to flesh out why we give the advice we do. Having said that, if the OP finds it distracting or not worthwhile, I will most certainly stop.



> She didn't admit she "lied". She admitted that her husband was a good husband and that she tried sticking it out while her feelings were deteriorating. In essence she was kinda doing what OP is doing right now. Doing all the superficial work by keeping up the house and raising their daughter the way a "good wife should" (but not addressing the underlying issues.) That's a far cry from "lying to Anon" which carries the implicit message that she was somehow trying to dupe him for some evil or machiavellan purpose. She knew she had it good and couldn't (and probably didn't) even understand her own emotions at the time. That is not _lying_. That is being confused and not wanting to blow up her marriage for no good reason. If she did anything wrong, it was apparently not having a crystal ball to see where her actions were leading her. It seems obvious in hindsight that her not communicating with Anon could lead to poor results, but I am almost positive that she was living in the moment and at the time she was just trying to keep her marriage together.


She said she has not loved him for years. I have no idea what she did not communicate that to him. It could well be for the reasons you note above. Yet it is still dishonest and lying. Every time she 'I love you', she was not being honest. 

I also don't think it takes some hindsight, or even an extraordinary amount of foresight to see that not communicating with your spouse is a recipe for disaster. I do understand her wanting to better understand her own feelings before raising the topic. So wanting to wait a month or two to figure out what is going on makes sense to me. I don't see how waiting years is anything other than dishonest. So while I agree with your thoughts on this, the amount of time makes a difference to me.



> As to the "kill shot" hurtful words. She does not appear to have a history of being abusive to her husband or her child. In fact almost everything (except the ILYBINILWY) came _after _the fact when Anon's feelings were hurt and he was now engaging her in arguments or questioning her feelings in an aggressive manner. He appears quite dismissive here, so I imagine she has picked up on that. Arguments don't get that ugly without two people participating in the mudslinging and patronizing as a general rule. Also Anon has conveniently not posted the ugly things he has said and, also conveniently, gives himself an out by saying he is "only human". He wants her to do half the work but I do not feel that he can honestly say that he is truly doing half the work himself. In fact this whole "half the work" line is a little ridiculous.


I think you word choice is telling. You again put the onus on the OP for getting his feelings hurt, as oppose to noting that she did the hurting. Sounds suspiciously like "the poor man and his fragile ego should suck it up." Perhaps you don't mean it that way, but that is what it reads like in the context of your posts.

I do not and will not condone Anon being ugly when they argue. But she should not get a pass either. Words matter, and the words she chooses after dropping that kind of speech say something. I do suspect that the "aggressive questioning" is because she admitted to not telling him things before. If my wife suddenly did that to me, I know I would ask a whole lot more questions because I could no longer assume that she would bring things up to me on her own. So what she (and you) see as perhaps too aggressive, I see as him making sure he gets the information he needs.



> As CBL said above as soon as his wife said ILBINILWY Anon started keeping score. He says "half" the work based on that mental tally instead of what she is capable of giving to him in any given situation. In terms of a marriage "half the work" is really an average. In fact most spouses have to work harder at one point in the marriage than the other. Then, later, the other partner picks up the slack (thinks sickness, or finances, or parental responsibilities) emotional dilemmas are really no different. Marriage all shakes out in the end if you have commitment, grace, and are willing to put in the time.


I do agree with your idea that "half the work" may not be possible. Maybe she can't give that much yet. However, I don't see her doing any of the work. There is no indication that she wants to do a single thing. Perhaps I have missed something, but I am just not seeing it.



> Of course there are marriages that are notoriously unequal (affairs and actual abuse) but I just haven't seen that in Anon's posts. Anon has admitted that they reached many of their decisions about house and home as equal partners.


That is the impression I get as well. I suspect part of the problem is that they did work together to make these decisions, including the decision for him to work and her to take care of the kids. So when that was not what she really wanted, it was difficult to change her mind. On the outside she played happy because they (and that included her) agreed to this, but on the inside she was resentful because it was not really what she wanted or hoped it would be. Unfortunately, she did not tell him that. I don't know why she did not, but that is something for counseling to figure out.


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## Tall Average Guy

Anon- I know that Fledgling and I have gone a round or two on how much you have been hurt and the level of what your wife did.

What I don't want to get lost in that is Feldgling's very good point that you are expecting too much too soon. If you stay to work on it (and I think you should at least for a time), you need to realize that your progress will be slow and sporadic. Two steps forward and one (and sometimes two) steps back. 

This is going to take work and it will not be easy for either of you.


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## AlmostYoung

Saving this marriage doesn't require any commitment or effort from your wife... yet.

Take your time, take care of yourself and your child. Work on you. The goal is to have her eventually join you in building a new and better relationship together, but any calls for her doing her share at this point will fail. You must move forward with no expectations, and put no pressure on her. 

It will be incredibly difficult, but then so is D. You can do this.


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## Fledgling

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think it is useful as it gives the OP (and others who read it) different perspectives, as well as providing a chance to flesh out why we give the advice we do. Having said that, if the OP finds it distracting or not worthwhile, I will most certainly stop.
> 
> 
> 
> She said she has not loved him for years. I have no idea what she did not communicate that to him. It could well be for the reasons you note above. Yet it is still dishonest and lying. Every time she 'I love you', she was not being honest.
> 
> I also don't think it takes some hindsight, or even an extraordinary amount of foresight to see that not communicating with your spouse is a recipe for disaster. I do understand her wanting to better understand her own feelings before raising the topic. So wanting to wait a month or two to figure out what is going on makes sense to me. I don't see how waiting years is anything other than dishonest. So while I agree with your thoughts on this, the amount of time makes a difference to me.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you word choice is telling. You again put the onus on the OP for getting his feelings hurt, as oppose to noting that she did the hurting. Sounds suspiciously like "the poor man and his fragile ego should suck it up." Perhaps you don't mean it that way, but that is what it reads like in the context of your posts.
> 
> I do not and will not condone Anon being ugly when they argue. But she should not get a pass either. Words matter, and the words she chooses after dropping that kind of speech say something. I do suspect that the "aggressive questioning" is because she admitted to not telling him things before. If my wife suddenly did that to me, I know I would ask a whole lot more questions because I could no longer assume that she would bring things up to me on her own. So what she (and you) see as perhaps too aggressive, I see as him making sure he gets the information he needs.
> 
> 
> 
> I do agree with your idea that "half the work" may not be possible. Maybe she can't give that much yet. However, I don't see her doing any of the work. There is no indication that she wants to do a single thing. Perhaps I have missed something, but I am just not seeing it.
> 
> 
> 
> That is the impression I get as well. I suspect part of the problem is that they did work together to make these decisions, including the decision for him to work and her to take care of the kids. So when that was not what she really wanted, it was difficult to change her mind. On the outside she played happy because they (and that included her) agreed to this, but on the inside she was resentful because it was not really what she wanted or hoped it would be. Unfortunately, she did not tell him that. I don't know why she did not, but that is something for counseling to figure out.



I think the time thing is really sticking in some people's craw so to speak. She says she hasn't loved him for years, ever since the baby came. To me, and I think that I have said this before, that sounds to me like she is retroactively defining her feelings then based on what she feels _now_. OP has stated that she was passionately in love with him before they had a child (according to her). It simply would not make sense that she flipped a switch within the space of 9 months or a year and simply stopped loving him with no good cause. 

It is far far more likely that her feelings started slowly deteriorating. Probably not even at a noticable rate. I mean most women are highly hormonal after giving birth. Sex is usually off the table for six weeks thereafter for the health of the mother and then, as you say, the decisions they reached as a coupleship began to weigh heavily on her. The OP had a hand to play in her feelings toward him as well (not helping around the house, not helping with the baby, smoking, working long hours,) OP even admiitted that she had come to him at one point about the long hours he worked and he told her that it was necessary but temporary and expressed exasperation that she had the gaul to feel upset by it. I have a hard time believing that was the only time she ever expressed dissatisfaction but even if it was OP did not validate her feelings at a _critical _time. 

Obviously there were times, especially toward the end, where she did lie. But she did not have grand scheme to dupe him through out their marriage. She didn't have the character flaw of being a liar. Maybe she could have been more forceful about her feelings, maybe she felt like she was betraying the choices they had made together, but seeing as OP seems to have an answer for everything, maybe she felt like she had no choice but to keep quiet if she wanted to save her marrige. She shouldn't be _condemned _for not communicating to him well, and she shouldn't be villified as a liar either, imho. Certainly his wife is going to have to learn to communicate better, but OP is also going to have to learn how to provide a condusive environment for communication. 

Neither of them should get a pass for the ugly words that have been said. Or rather they both _should _get a pass. The relity of the situation is that they have both said mean horrible things to one another now. It doesn't matter who started it or who is worse. The onus I am putting on the OP is stop giving himself a free pass on the ugliness of his part in this. He is always saying things like he was saying it out of self-defense, or he is only human. He does have to suck up the fact that he is actively trying to hurt her. It doesn't matter if she started it or is "worse". That is beyond childish and juvenile. Five year olds use that arguement. He ups the ante whenever he starts getting called out. She no longer says mean things in the heat of an argument. She is "abusive". She "takes it out on their daughter". Now we all know that our tempers shouldn't be taken out on our kids, but I wouldn't be surprised if their relationship is causing her to be prickly and out of sorts with everyone, including their daughter. We have all had hard days and snapped at our children when we shouldn't have. It's not right, but it is understandable, and children have far more capacity to forgive. His wife does have the obligation to minimize such outbursts but unless she is being downright abusive to their daughter I can't see this as anymore than the OP as trying to use their daughter as a means to hurt his wife.

ETA: I guess what I am saying is, yes, if they want their marriage to last she is going to have to work on her end. But we have to remember where we are starting from. They were starting with one of her feet already out the door. She agreed to counseling so that she could regain some feeling for him. She still tends the house. She still takes care of their daughter. She is agreeing to dates with her husband. She has yet to do anything to actively work against their marriage other than the fights. When you guys say she isn't working on their marriage you are expecting a tit for tat kind of thing. What I think OP is really saying is that he is frustrated with her lack of acknowledgement of his efforts (like quitting smoking helping around the house) What he wants is for her to acknowledge that he is trying instead of piling on yet one more thing that he did wrong. Am I right? Five years is alot of pent-up resentment for her. She sees that he resents having to do the things she asks of him and grows more resentful of him. It's a vicious circle that they HAVE to break. She doesn't want him to just do these things. She wantsacknowledgement from him that these things hurt her.


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## AlmostYoung

Fledgling said:


> It's a vicious circle that they HAVE to break.


Yes, and since you are the one here wanting to save this marriage Anon, you're the one that must make the first move, and be consistent about it.

Drop all the scorekeeping and quit all the blaming. Be the man she wants and watch her follow. Oh, did I mention this will likely take a while? Nothing worthwhile is easy.


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## promarriage

I’ve read through many of the posts, and WAW syndrome is there, but I believe your wife hopes that the marriage can work out. You are frustrated Annom, but you have to let go of your feelings as much as possible because it is obvious that you want this marriage to last as well. I’ve got a lot to say, so I am going to put everything on consecutive posts.

I am confident there is not OM, and yes she is probably talking to somebody for advice. That does not mean that the person giving advice is pro-divorce; they could actually be a reason why she has not ended it. I think she took that trip home because she wanted to talk about the marriage and how her feelings for you were not there, thus making her unhappy. And I would bet that somebody said that she has to let you know, which was great advice because the healing cannot start until the problem is on the table for both to see. She may tell you that you were unapproachable, and that is why she did not let you know before, but the real reason is she did not know how to approach you because she couldn’t explain why she was feeling empty. She still does not know why she lost those in-love feelings.

Your wife has a low self esteem, but most people do. Her self esteem can fluctuate, just like anybody’s can, but right now it is extremely low. If you demonstrate a lower self esteem to her now that there is uneasiness in your relationship, it will suppress hers even more. Why? There is no doubt that you are a leader, and that is one of your qualities that attracted your wife. At a sub-conscious level, most women want to be led, so she has followed and still follows your lead. That is why it is important not to cater, pursue, or reason with her right now because she will pick that up as weakness, and she will lose some respect. You are the leader, and leaders are strong. You are still her “rock”, and she is hoping you can get everything back on track. And if you are “all in” to your marriage, you will get it back on track. You are more at fault than she is. Why? Because you are the LEADER, and you led her where she is today. Yes, there may have been some women that would be thrilled with the way you led, but you did not fall in love with them. There is something in your wife that attracted you to fall in love with her. A good leader does not give up. You must be strong. 

Your goal is to get your wife to love you again. If you can do that, everything else will fall into place. Of course, it is easier said than done, but it is possible. And if it does happen, your marriage will be stronger than ever, and you both will have a deeper love for one another that you could only imagine at this moment. With that said, the prize is worth going after. Even if you do not get there, you will feel great about yourself because you did your absolute best. 

I’ve read amongst the posts that maybe a 180 may not be the best thing. A 180, or a 100, or even a 45 is exactly what you need. Why? Because whatever you were doing led your wife to fall out of love. So change is necessary, and these changes must be integrated into your behavior, perceptions, and attitude. The reason for the 180 is because it must be radical in order for your wife to take notice. And if these changes are done long enough, they will become part of you. Ultimately, your behavior, perceptions, and attitude will end up somewhere between where you were and 180 degrees away. But a permanent change will take effect, and you will carry it with you into any relationship you are in. The bottom line is you would have bettered yourself. Whatever you were doing before did not work in your marriage. 

The fact that she will go to counseling tells me that she is not ready to leave. However, she is skeptical, and she is definitely leaning pessimistically. Why? Because her feelings are negative toward you, and she cannot help but to see the marriage from a negative point of view. That is what makes it complicated. The first thing you need to work on is to abolish some of the negativity in your wife. A great place to start is to stop doing negative things yourself. Stop ALL complaining and criticizing, because it is negative, and it is poisonous to romantic love. Plus, you are the leader, and leaders do not complain. Leaders do not criticize, they help without being condescending. Also, avoid arguing, for that will push your wife further away. Avoid any kind of pressure at all. The slightest bit is amplified when there is animosity in a marriage. Most of all, be optimistic, and let that positive attitude shine through.

You must bring the tension down as well. Do not try and reason with your wife about her feelings. It does not work. You cannot change the way she feels. You can only work on yourself. The whole idea of this is her feelings may change when she sees a better you, a you that she is more attracted to. And that is where you need to go. You must try and look at your marriage objectively as much as you can. This enables you to use your brain, and not your feelings. Your feelings and pride are hurt right now, and they are telling you to fight and defend. But they will only make matters worse. LET GO. Think objectively.


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## promarriage

Up to this point, I have mostly mentioned generalizations from books and literature that I have read along the way. But you should see that it all makes sense. Now I am going to express some of my opinions and advice, so you need to be honest with yourself and decipher what I have to say. Most of what I am about to say is how I define you from the way you have expressed yourself in your postings, what I think some of things you need to work on (drawing from information that you posted), and to give you some suggestions that will help you achieve your happy marriage. Please take no offense to my opinions, for I really hope you can get your marriage back on track. Personally, I think you could make it all work out. You have to play your cards right though. And that means being honest with you.

Your wife is not a bad person. She truly cannot help the way she feels. She is not strong enough to change the inner argument she has about you. If she were, she wouldn’t have lost that loving feeling in the first place. She is submissive to an extent, and expects you to lead, which you have. She is not happy with the way you have led, but she was too passive to grab the lead at times to pull you back on track. In most marriages, when a woman does not like something, she will speak up enough to convey it. When this happens, the husband takes notice, and then will adjust. Your wife was probably always subtle, and you were unable to make adjustments because you did not know when your wife was not pleased with some particular things. Well these things all add up, and when there are no adjustments, you start moving in different directions. So everything is distorted, and you are no longer on the same page. Misunderstandings become more frequent, and sometimes one or both become more defensive. This is what you have to unravel, and it makes it extremely complicated because you have to go back to find out why things went wrong. You cannot change what has already happened, but you can change things going forward. However, it is important to find out the things that led your wife to fall out of love so you can correct them and then carry them forward.

Judging from your posts, I define you as a hard worker who is logical, and wants nothing but the best for his family. I see you as a righteous person, loyal, one who likes to make things as easy as possible and one who is extremely orderly. These are all good traits, but sometimes when you do not deviate, you become predictable. Predictability can be viewed as boring. I am not saying you are a boring person, I am saying that you may be leading a boring lifestyle. LEADING. Who’s being led? Think about that, especially when you are implementing your 180. You mentioned that you worked quite a bit which leads me to believe that maybe you did not take the time to do things together, or for that matter, do things on your own outside of the marriage (golf, poker, guys getting out). Keep this in mind; your outside interests from the marriage make you a more interesting person. Did you give them up when you got married? Again, something to use for your 180. When you put too much dependency on your spouse, they feel responsible for your happiness. When you are having a bad day, they feel responsible. Outside interests relieve them of that pressure. You should be exorcising if you are not. Weight lifting increases testosterone, and that makes you feel better. Another 180 tactic if you have not been exorcising. These types of things are great 180’s because you are showing something different and different is good because the same old did not work. Your wife will take notice, and she will become more attracted because your confidence will get stronger.

I mentioned righteous. There’s an old saying that it is better to be happy than right. I agree with that. If you disagree with your wife, try to see her point of view. She may be partially right, and you can agree and stress where she is right, leaving the other part you disagree with alone. She immediately becomes less wrong, and it helps to build her confidence. She may be surprised that you are not arguing or being defensive if that has been the case. A great 180. Listen to what she has to say, and empathize, but sound sincere. Your wife wants to love you, but does not know why she does not. Put a good spin on that, and admire her for it. She could have chosen to just walk away, but she wants to work it out. Feel her pain – she really wants to love you. If you can do this, you will lift all blame from your wife, and your anger will subside big time. You have made a giant step when you let go of the anger, because you can now really work on making your marriage right. 

You mentioned the weekend you went dancing. I think you made a mistake or two, and I think you missed an opportunity to bring your wife a little bit closer. I don’t believe you should have brought up how other women were checking you out. You come off as insecure. A confident man would not have to say that. When your wife said “that’s all you want”, you missed a golden opportunity. Humor could have easily been poured in there, and any humor is good right now. You could have laughed and said something like “busted”, and then followed up giving her a compliment like “but how could I resist, I mean you really are beautiful.” A little further in the conversation you could have added that “you mean more to me than that”. Think about that: Humor, compliment, and basically agreeing with her, but still holding your own. 

Annom, you need to become more light-hearted. You are going to have to figure many things out on your own. But when other people say things like LISTEN – it is very important. Let your wife know you understand her feelings, and sound sincere. Something tells me that you’ve asked for your wife’s opinions many times in the past, and then somehow disagreed, and then manipulated her into going your way. But that is not what she wanted to do. She was just passive. She probably felt like you always got your way. I could be way off base on this one, so please take it with a grain of salt. 

Here are some things I want you to do. I will not give the reasons, but please trust me, they will not hurt you. Act happy, and let it be seen. Enjoy people. Give your child a lot of your positive attention. Go out more if you have not in the past. Avoid arguing. Don’t criticize. Don’t complain. Agree with your wife as much as you can. Enjoy life and make changes in yourself. Give your wife space. This one is very important – make sure you are not controlling. People who are in this type of situation become more controlling, even if they weren’t in the first place. Divorce Busters says ‘don’t believe anything you hear from your wife, and less than half of what you see’. What they mean is she will be putting on a façade, but she is not feeling great herself. So if she seems extremely happy when you are more on the outs, she is just putting on a show. She feels terrible too. Your wife said she doesn’t like your personality. Take that with a grain of salt, because she has mixed up personality with behavior. There are a few behavior characteristics that she dislikes, and those are what you are looking for. Those are what you want to adjust. She needs adjustments as well, but not yet. You have to work on yourself first because she is the one who became more removed from the marriage. You will figure this out because you are that type of person. Do not where your marital problems on your sleeve. It is not attractive, and it really does no good. Places like this is where you can let it all hang out. This is where you get great advice. I’m telling you, I think your wife wants the marriage to work, and that is a lot more than what some people get their marriage has hit a low point. I hope this helps. Good luck to you.


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## promarriage

A few more things to add:

I think your wife may have felt un-needed, and that made her fall out of love. However, because of the situation, you cannot act needy right now. You have to show her that you will be fine with or without her, but do not tell her that. Display confidence. Although words are very soothing to a woman in love, it is actions that speak louder when a marriage is troubled. Again, do not pursue or reason, especially with words. No notes, no I love you's, no gifts. You have to show her that you stand your ground, but you must implement changes that she can see. These changes must be conveyed that they are for you only, regardless of what happens. You basically need to pull away. You may have been too dependent on having her in your life. Taking it all for granted. Interdependence is what a good marriage is about. She has lost attraction for you, but it can come back. That is what the 180 is for.


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## AlmostYoung

^^^Sounds like the Divorce Remedy/Divorce Busting plan. Very good.

Hey anonymously, any updates? I hope things are stable and slowly improving between you and your wife.


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## LongWalk

Promarriage, you make some good points. Humor when wife pushes him away, instead of sullen resentment. A light hearted attitude in a dark situation can give everyone hope. Nonetheless, looks gloomy, given the extended distance between them.


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## promarriage

LongWalk said:


> Promarriage, you make some good points. Humor when wife pushes him away, instead of sullen resentment. A light hearted attitude in a dark situation can give everyone hope. Nonetheless, looks gloomy, given the extended distance between them.


A situation like this is never good, but unless one remains optimistic, the worse will surely happen. Both optimism and pessimism can be sub-consciously sensed. Which one has a better chance of bringing home the beacon? Optimistic people are far more attractive. Plus, both are contagious, and a splash of optimism on his wife could dissolve some of those negative feelings she has for him.


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## LongWalk

Promarriage, you say that Anonymously's wife suffers from a sense of low self esteem, but it also sounds as if she deeply depressed.


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## promarriage

LongWalk said:


> Promarriage, you say that Anonymously's wife suffers from a sense of low self esteem, but it also sounds as if she deeply depressed.


I don't think it's possible to have a healthy esteem if one is depressed. I agree that there is probably some depression in her.


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