# Do we sabatoge ourselves unnecessarily, i.e. drive for perfection?



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I sometimes wonder if we get so hung up on wanting sex the "right way" (translation - the way I want it to be) that we get to the point where we figuratively shoot ourselves in the foot? It seems like in a few of the "sexless" threads, the typical story unfolds as follows:


OP is not getting enough sex
Either goes the route of begging, passive/aggressive or tries to disengage
(My best guess here - typically never fleshed out by the OP) Spouse tries to offer sex, but OP sees it as "duty sex" or "pity sex".
Rinse and repeat until resentments (on both sides possibly???) build and build until something breaks.

Please bear with me because I am not living in a sexless marriage, but I think I can relate to bullet 3. What I found out with my wife is that she is not the type of girl that will regularly think about sex to the point that her panties are dripping wet with excitement. I wish she was like this is not the case. Despite that, we have sex 3-5 times/week and it is usually fulfilling for the both of us in most cases. On those times where it isn't "porn star sex", it's still a way for us to connect and to keep those home fires burning. So while my wife may not be thinking about sex like some of the women on TAM, when we do start to become intimate I can typically get her heated up and excited - like the curling iron analogy where it takes a little bit to heat up but it WILL get hot.

My speculation is that in some of these situations where the sex is boring, infrequent or nonexistent, is it more of a situation where we are not exercising communication and patience? On top of that, are we also trying to shoehorn our spouses to become erotic in the way we want them to and not allowing them to exercise their eroticism in their own way? I'm not saying to eliminate persuasion and to shelve the desire to explore our sexuality in new and interesting ways, but there is a fine line that will have to be walked with some of our spouses to effectively persuade him/her to open up more without causing pain. Easier said than done and definitely you will make mistakes and cause hurt feelings. But I believe with time, patience and communication we can all have a fulfilling love life with our spouses.

As an example, my wife will most likely not be dressing up in stiletto heels, garter, silk/lace thong and lacy bra begging me to fvck her. I'd love to see it but I probably won't. But, she will initiate in her own way that is generally more playful while fully clothed. I used to think it was a lack of attraction for me that would prevent her from going "all out" for me like that. But the reality is that she is not comfortable playing that role. It has nothing to do with me - that's just who she is. Despite that, we have done and do a variety of things in the bedroom. Sometimes we are just vanilla, but many times it's more than that. This leads me to believe that a lack of sex or low quality sex is not so much an issue with HD vs LD. I think most of the problems stem from a busy life (translation, just not making time for each other), fatigue and a failure to communicate in many of the other marital issue beyond the bedroom, feeling impatient with things not going our way in the bedroom and having expectations that do not jive with who our spouses are.

JMHO, interested in other people's thoughts on this.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I think some people just aren't that sexual. You can be LD and still be a fairly sexual person...but many people just aren't. If you aren't a sexual person, you will not get the same benefits from sex as others do and it will seem like a chore to you (in the long run).

I don't think people who aren't very sexual are likely to change, either.

But some people who might be LD *are* actually sexual, they just don't want sex very often, but they do want it.

So some marriages where sex is an issue will see improvement, and others won't.

The marriages that include a not-very-sexual spouse most likely will not improve.


----------



## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Very true.

Maybe this will help. My wifee is LD due to her insecurity about her size. Now that she is eating healthy, smaller meals and going to the gym January, her interest in sex has gone up, its not hurry up, are you done yet either. She was also told in her youth that she wouldn't amount to much, due to her size and her ex bf was a bad guy too. Some LD spouses have been abused and never got the help they needed and some have medical issues that need addressing too. I agree that its hard for some people to change, my wifee took 14 years to change.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Plan 9, I have often suspected that many of the "sexless marriage" posts in which the OP complains that she never initiates is exactly as you describe.

I don't fully understand the difference between "not very sexual" and low drive, although FaithfulWife has started on a definition. 

Even when I was learning to be a more sexual woman it took me a long time to figure out that I was supposed to initiate sex. Duh! At the same time I found it highly unfair that I was supposed to get all sexy dressed when he would put on gym shorts and an undershirt for comfort! I know lots of men hate suits but men are really sexy in a sharp suit! But I digress...

Women tend to be response lovers, more so then men. Unfortunately this translates that men need to be the go to initiators for sex. Like you said, with good communication a husband can help his wife understand that it would be nice if she could start things off.

I had to explain to my husband that just because I start things doesn't mean I don't need to be touched and caressed and turned on. I think this might also be something some men aren't getting?


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

_The foremost of all illusions is that anything can ever satisfy anybody. That illusion stands behind all that is unendurable in life and in front of all progress, and it is one of the most difficult things to overcome._
--Carl Jung

The answer to your question is a wholehearted: "Yes of course." 

Nearly all of us have to wrestle with the underlying fact that we will never feel fully satisfied in life.

Regarding sex in marriage (and similar concerns), I think the litmus test question is: _Do you think your spouse is putting forth genuine and GOOD-HEARTED effort to make you happy within your marriage?_


----------



## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I sometimes wonder if we get so hung up on wanting sex the "right way" (translation - the way I want it to be) that we get to the point where we figuratively shoot ourselves in the foot? It seems like in a few of the "sexless" threads, the typical story unfolds as follows:
> 
> 
> OP is not getting enough sex
> ...


*There have been times when she was willing to try things and to expand and show interest. She was putting in a focused effort at those time because we had some serious issues. Everytime the pressure is off she drops the ball and pushhes our marriage and me down her priority list. I really think you need to walk in the soes of a HD/LD relationship before you can truly understand whast goes on in one.

Thanks for trying though.*


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Always Learning said:


> *There have been times when she was willing to try things and to expand and show interest. She was putting in a focused effort at those time because we had some serious issues. Everytime the pressure is off she drops the ball and pushhes our marriage and me down her priority list. I really think you need to walk in the soes of a HD/LD relationship before you can truly understand whast goes on in one.
> 
> Thanks for trying though.*


No one wants to be pressured into being more sexual if that is not what they are really into. I can understand the op, he is saying that sometimes the hd partner will pressure the ld partner into responding sexually in the way that the hd wants. If it doesn't feel natural to the ld she will eventually stop when the pressure is off. If the hd keeps pressing for the same thing the ld will eventually give up, and start to respond like what you describe your wife does. Which is to do the bare minimum so that it won't seem like there is total neglect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

techmom said:


> No one wants to be pressured into being more sexual if that is not what they are really into. I can understand the op, he is saying that sometimes the hd partner will pressure the ld partner into responding sexually in the way that the hd wants. If it doesn't feel natural to the ld she will eventually stop when the pressure is off. If the hd keeps pressing for the same thing the ld will eventually give up, and start to respond like what you describe your wife does. Which is to do the bare minimum so that it won't seem like there is total neglect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

But... What Alway learning described..



> Well lets see, when your actually having sex and trying to passionately kiss your wife and she is not returning the kiss or is cutting it short, when you ask her to do something for you (because she will not voluntarily do it) HJ or BJ and you get a groan, when you have made sure you took care of her O and you have finished only to realize she did not even touch you the entire time, she laid there with her hands on the bed palm down. I think I get to call that pity sex.


Isn't even pity sex. That's corpse sex and frankly, it's the most disgusting version of passive aggressive controlling behavior I've seen here. A most hurtful and hateful way of saying, if it isn't my idea, I wil make it miserable for you!

Always learning, next time that happens, stop everything! Get out of bed and leave the room. Tell her you're ready to call it quits.

I would not put up with that a second time!!!!


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

techmom said:


> No one wants to be pressured into being more sexual if that is not what they are really into. I can understand the op, he is saying that sometimes the hd partner will pressure the ld partner into responding sexually in the way that the hd wants. If it doesn't feel natural to the ld she will eventually stop when the pressure is off. If the hd keeps pressing for the same thing the ld will eventually give up, and start to respond like what you describe your wife does. Which is to do the bare minimum so that it won't seem like there is total neglect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think that is where SOME of the issues reside. I don't know your issue in great detail AL, so please don't think that I'm trying to approach these issues with a one size fits all mentality. I think techmom has a good understanding of what I was trying to say in the OP - that those of us with the HD mindset can shoot ourselves in the foot if we try to get our partners to respond in ways that they are not comfortable with. Back to the example I used about my wife, if I kept pushing and pushing her to wear the naughty lingerie then our sex life would not be where it is today. Also, my wife doesn't initiate in the way that I would find "perfect" for me, but when she does initiate I just go for it. And it normally turns out to be a very fun time.

AL, you are wrong about your assumptions about me and my wife. We do have mismatched drives. She's lower in her actual needs for sex than me. If I left it to the point where we only had sex when she was "feeling it", then it would be at most 1-2 times in a week. I want to stress that would be the most. I'm sure there would be a week (or more) where she would be content to not have it at all. So is it safe to assume that in my case my wife is not getting anything out of sex except for once a week even though we may do it 3 - 5 times a week? Absolutely not. Because even though she may not be "feeling it", she and I realize that she can get turned on through good quality foreplay and simply enjoying our moment together. It's my belief that this is where some couples fall into this trap. When we project how we expect our spouses to act sexually and not let them act in their own way, that only sets us up for failure. How many times do we hear "I refuse to have pity sex from my wife/husband! I'd rather go without...". I think in many ways that situation is misread by the frustrated spouse. Maybe the "LD spouse" doesn't come across as a sex maniac, but that spouse can be warmed up to get excited if patience and communication are used to learn how to get there.

In good marriages we each train each other to a certain extent, right? In reality, it's not "training your spouse" it's the communication, time commitment, the notion that your spouse KNOWS that he/she comes first in your life - meaning first before the kids, friends and your parents, etc. Building that solid foundation to make the marriage strong helps to inspire your spouse to WANT to please you - and you to WANT to please her. It's that deepening connection that I think makes a healthy sex life a natural outcome from a good marriage. That's why I tend to be dubious of all the time spent on this HD vs LD dynamic. Because barring medical conditions and/or tangible evidence that the hormones are not at normal levels, there shouldn't be any natural low drive people. Almost everyone has a normal sex drive; however, that sex drive can be driven into the toilet if let it. JMHO.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> :iagree:
> 
> But... What Alway learning described..
> 
> ...


Constantly being reminded on how you are falling short of the HD fantasy of lustful passionate sex that they want will lead the LD person to participate in corpse sex. This is where the HD person shoots themselves in the foot. The LD may have been putting in effort but it didn't show in the way the HD wanted, after being reminded of such over and over this is what happens. And it is sad.

This may be like saying "Be happy with what you get". But it is not. I'm saying, don't overheat something that should be slow cooked or else the dinner would get burned.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Also, when HDs tell the LDs to "just let go and express what you feel" and then they get disappointed by what happened, we LDs feel like we are being judged in the worst way. It is like saying,"You are not good enough, your sexuality is not good enough to turn me on". That is the biggest libido killer, trying to come out of your shell that has been imposed on you through years of being trained by society and your parents (good girls don't do that) then to have your husband tell you that what you are expressing is "pity" "duty" "not sexy enough".

You think sexual rejection is bad, some HDs do their own form of rejection which hurts just as bad.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

techmom said:


> Also, when HDs tell the LDs to "just let go and express what you feel" and then they get disappointed by what happened, we LDs feel like we are being judged in the worst way. *It is like saying,"You are not good enough, your sexuality is not good enough to turn me on".* That is the biggest libido killer, trying to come out of your shell that has been imposed on you through years of being trained by society and your parents (good girls don't do that) then to have your husband tell you that what you are expressing is "pity" "duty" "not sexy enough".
> 
> You think sexual rejection is bad, some HDs do their own form of rejection which hurts just as bad.


My wife and I have been down that road before, and periodically it still pops up on rare occasions. But in our experience, it's OK if it does so long as the communication is there to effectively work through the concerns. My wife has expressed to me what you wrote in your response that I put in bold a number of times. It has taken me almost 17 years to figure this out. Don't get me wrong, we have never had any prolonged stretches of little to no sex or vanilla sex, and I would chalk that up to good effective communication coupled with the other good things we did in our marriage that was not related to intimacy. What I lacked was the open mind needed to understand how my wife expresses herself sexually. My wife grew up in a religious household. As a byproduct, she is a modest person when it comes to how she dresses. She would NEVER wear a 2 piece bathing suit, used to be very uncomfortable talking about sex in a pubic places amongst others, although she's gotten a lot better about that and will even crack a perverted joke on occasion now, but you get the point of where I'm going with it. So I believe that has colored her views on sex to a certain extent. But given time and us getting to know each other better over the years, we've been steadily improving the quality of our sex life. 

So while we may not be into toys or watching porn together, we have been pretty risque. We've had sex in public places, used a variety of positions, oral, anal, showered together, etc. Initially it was easy at first because when we first started dating we were new and lust can be a great motivator to jump into being sexual. Then I think over time as we became more familiar with each other the lust has to give way to building trust in each other when it comes to intimacy. I guess it comes to trusting your partner to accept you and making yourself vulnerable. I think that too is a part of it and when you know that you can trust your spouse to enjoy you sexually even if you try something outside your comfort zone and are awkward as a result. 

If two people can build that trust when it comes to intimacy where both are accepting of who their partner is, then as the more LD spouse starts pushing his/her boundaries more and more, he/she will feel secure in knowing that their HD spouse is their biggest cheerleader and not their judge who will criticize the LD spouses efforts.

Some of the things I picked up in marriage. But really, I'm not sure if my wife is LD so much as just unsure of how to be a sexual "free spirit" combined with the idea that my wife is more of the responsive type that AP described in one of her earlier posts. I think it's more the latter as opposed to my wife being a true LD woman.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Have realistic expectations based on premarital assessment and cultural stereotypes of who (or what :rofl: ) you're marrying. Stereotypes are just that, stereotypes, but for the most part there's usually some truth in them... Your chances of hitting the LD or HD jackpot COULD increase or decrease based on those stereotypes. Do your homework.

Sometimes stereotypes fail. When I was a grad student i attended college in a very warm state where co-eds were skimpily dressed by necessity. Some foreign born TA' s thought this must be of some significance  in terms of hitting on their students, but of course it was not the case. 90F weather is not conducive to long pants, not to mention the locals did not appreciate sex starved TA' s hitting on them (professors was a different story tho)...


----------



## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

techmom said:


> No one wants to be pressured into being more sexual if that is not what they are really into. I can understand the op, he is saying that sometimes the hd partner will pressure the ld partner into responding sexually in the way that the hd wants. If it doesn't feel natural to the ld she will eventually stop when the pressure is off. If the hd keeps pressing for the same thing the ld will eventually give up, and start to respond like what you describe your wife does. Which is to do the bare minimum so that it won't seem like there is total neglect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Since I see being sexual with the person I love (my wife) as normal and natural, I never see it as pressure. When we were dating (6 years) and during the first several years of marriage she didn't see it as pressure either. It was only after we had kids that it became pressure. She went into full mommy mode.


----------



## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> :iagree:
> 
> But... What Alway learning described..
> 
> ...


This is why I no longer initiate sex. I have walked out of the room twice this year only to be called back to a better attitude but it still didnt feel good emotionally. She does not get that sex is an emotional connection for me.


----------



## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I think that is where SOME of the issues reside. I don't know your issue in great detail AL, so please don't think that I'm trying to approach these issues with a one size fits all mentality. I think techmom has a good understanding of what I was trying to say in the OP - that those of us with the HD mindset can shoot ourselves in the foot if we try to get our partners to respond in ways that they are not comfortable with. Back to the example I used about my wife, if I kept pushing and pushing her to wear the naughty lingerie then our sex life would not be where it is today. Also, my wife doesn't initiate in the way that I would find "perfect" for me, but when she does initiate I just go for it. And it normally turns out to be a very fun time.
> 
> AL, you are wrong about your assumptions about me and my wife. We do have mismatched drives. She's lower in her actual needs for sex than me. If I left it to the point where we only had sex when she was "feeling it", then it would be at most 1-2 times in a week. I want to stress that would be the most. I'm sure there would be a week (or more) where she would be content to not have it at all. So is it safe to assume that in my case my wife is not getting anything out of sex except for once a week even though we may do it 3 - 5 times a week? Absolutely not. Because even though she may not be "feeling it", she and I realize that she can get turned on through good quality foreplay and simply enjoying our moment together. It's my belief that this is where some couples fall into this trap. When we project how we expect our spouses to act sexually and not let them act in their own way, that only sets us up for failure. How many times do we hear "I refuse to have pity sex from my wife/husband! I'd rather go without...". I think in many ways that situation is misread by the frustrated spouse. Maybe the "LD spouse" doesn't come across as a sex maniac, but that spouse can be warmed up to get excited if patience and communication are used to learn how to get there.
> 
> In good marriages we each train each other to a certain extent, right? In reality, it's not "training your spouse" it's the communication, time commitment, the notion that your spouse KNOWS that he/she comes first in your life - meaning first before the kids, friends and your parents, etc. Building that solid foundation to make the marriage strong helps to inspire your spouse to WANT to please you - and you to WANT to please her. It's that deepening connection that I think makes a healthy sex life a natural outcome from a good marriage. That's why I tend to be dubious of all the time spent on this HD vs LD dynamic. Because barring medical conditions and/or tangible evidence that the hormones are not at normal levels, there shouldn't be any natural low drive people. Almost everyone has a normal sex drive; however, that sex drive can be driven into the toilet if let it. JMHO.


You make a lot of great points here. But it is my wife that does not put our marriage first, it used to be the kids, now it is her job.

You describe your wife as LD and I realize it is all relative as to what you need or want but what would you do if LD meant never unless you initiated it all the time and received repeated rejections. At this point it has been two months since the last time we had sex which has been a common time frame for the last few years.


----------



## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

As Faithful Wife said earlier; there are some people who just arent sexual.

I firmly believe this to be true. We are who we are. 
Some people are born large...they will always be large because thats how they were made, however they can 'tweek' a little bit...diet, exercise by about 20%, but they will always be 'large'. Its how God made us!

If sex is way down the list of BOTH partners then it really isnt a problem. However if partners have a difference of opinion as to its importance then a compromise that is agreeable to both has to be reached.

Sadly, there are some who do not see sex as important and refuse to budge or even compromise.

My wife has NEVER given me (or anyone) a BJ. No reasons simply, No. She will not compromise and I wear a condom or she just sucks my balls? No No No No No...its disgusting.

Her attitude towards sex is 'if I don't feel like and you do, why should I do something I don't want to do?'....Because you're my wife...and thats what married couples do.

She feels like sex and comes on to me about once a month....I would love to say 'Thanks but I don't feel like it so why should I do something I don't want to do?'.........sadly, being a man with testosterone etc, I accept what I am offered.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Always Learning said:


> You make a lot of great points here. *But it is my wife that does not put our marriage first, it used to be the kids, now it is her job.*
> 
> You describe your wife as LD and I realize it is all relative as to what you need or want but what would you do if LD meant never unless you initiated it all the time and received repeated rejections. At this point it has been two months since the last time we had sex which has been a common time frame for the last few years.


You are correct in that in order for it to work out, both spouses have to commit to putting the marriage first. I still think that the root cause of your problems is not intimacy but other facets of the marriage. I think the majority of the threads in the SIM forum are not actually based on sex as the cause of the issues, but sex issues are definitely an effect of some other root causes. 

I would say that your wife fell into the parent trap by putting most of her energy into the kids. After doing that, she "lost her identity" and latched onto her job in order to rediscover who she is as an individual. It looks like she is acting like a pendulum and going between extremes. 

Your wife isn't true LD - just like you don't think my wife is LD either. I think I agree with you on this too, and it's the reason why I dislike the HD vs LD labels because I think they really only apply to people who medically are being driven to ridiculously high levels of arousal or are "comatose" to their sexuality. Consider what you wrote below:



> Since I see being sexual with the person I love (my wife) as normal and natural, I never see it as pressure. When we were dating (6 years) and during the first several years of marriage she didn't see it as pressure either. It was only after we had kids that it became pressure. She went into full mommy mode.


That doesn't sound like she always had a problem with sex nor made the bait and switch. But it definitely sounds like she lost her way in the marriage by letting her environment and life situations get in the way of the marriage. Did you play some role in this too? I have no idea. All I do know is that your issue is not based on having an LD spouse who always struggles with libido issues. I'd be almost 100% certain that your wife's libido is fine, and it's other external factors that is getting in the way.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

techmom said:


> Also, when HDs tell the LDs to "just let go and express what you feel" and then they get disappointed by what happened, we LDs feel like we are being judged in the worst way. It is like saying,"You are not good enough, your sexuality is not good enough to turn me on". That is the biggest libido killer, trying to come out of your shell that has been imposed on you through years of being trained by society and your parents (good girls don't do that) then to have your husband tell you that what you are expressing is "pity" "duty" "not sexy enough".
> 
> You think sexual rejection is bad, some HDs do their own form of rejection which hurts just as bad.


I get what you're saying and agree. But are you suggesting that laying in bed with your legs spread, not moving at all, not touching him at all, turning away from his kisses, is something other than passive rejection of sex with him?

There needs to be a minimal level of perceived participation between the lines of corpse sex and low drive sex, doesn't there? 

Expecting a woman who isn't terribly interested in sex to start screaming and writhing, shouting expletives as she begs for him to go deeper would definitely be too much to ask. But expecting her to move along with the motions, to expect to be embraced, to expect to be kissed and welcome his kisses is not too much, IMO.



techmom said:


> I'm saying, don't overheat something that should be slow cooked or else the dinner would get burned.


Classic line! Love it!


----------



## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> My wife and I have been down that road before, and periodically it still pops up on rare occasions. But in our experience, it's OK if it does so long as the communication is there to effectively work through the concerns. My wife has expressed to me what you wrote in your response that I put in bold a number of times. It has taken me almost 17 years to figure this out. Don't get me wrong, we have never had any prolonged stretches of little to no sex or vanilla sex, and I would chalk that up to good effective communication coupled with the other good things we did in our marriage that was not related to intimacy. What I lacked was the open mind needed to understand how my wife expresses herself sexually. My wife grew up in a religious household. As a byproduct, she is a modest person when it comes to how she dresses. She would NEVER wear a 2 piece bathing suit, used to be very uncomfortable talking about sex in a pubic places amongst others, although she's gotten a lot better about that and will even crack a perverted joke on occasion now, but you get the point of where I'm going with it. So I believe that has colored her views on sex to a certain extent. But given time and us getting to know each other better over the years, we've been steadily improving the quality of our sex life.
> 
> So while we may not be into toys or watching porn together, we have been pretty risque. We've had sex in public places, used a variety of positions, oral, anal, showered together, etc. Initially it was easy at first because when we first started dating we were new and lust can be a great motivator to jump into being sexual. Then I think over time as we became more familiar with each other the lust has to give way to building trust in each other when it comes to intimacy. I guess it comes to trusting your partner to accept you and making yourself vulnerable. I think that too is a part of it and when you know that you can trust your spouse to enjoy you sexually even if you try something outside your comfort zone and are awkward as a result.
> 
> ...


I never looked at it from the point of view that Techmom mentioned. But throughout the begining of our relationship this wasn't a problem and when we have decided to work on it she has been very good about it. When she does raise our marriage up on her priority list everything is fine. A few years ago she we had a serious issue and worked on it we went to MC and she admitted that she didn't know how important to a relationship sex can be. She changed for a few years and it was great. She voluntarily tried anal, swallowing etc. Hell we even went on a trip for our 20th and she willingly went to a nude beach with me and loved it. This was the period between mommy mode and going back to work. But it isn't just sex either it is basic everyday touching and affection that is missing.

To John's point below my wife is from South America, she dresses very sexy and she is verys sexy looking. When we go to parties our out with groups of friends she ia always the naughtiest women there. She is the one make the double meaning comments and dirty jokes. But when we leave it all stops. She has everyone at work and most of our friends convinced she is a highly sexual person


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Coming from a marriage to a very sexual HD spouse who just didn't want sex with me, and who had no problems expressing that she did want sex, just not with me, and then going into a relationship with a HD woman who DOES want sex with me has been kind of a learning experience for me.

I can very much relate to the OP in the general sense. My STBW, with me, is very HD. She is willing and wanting sex daily or more. The thing is, she doesn't think about it in the same way I do. It is frequently at the front of my mind, conscious thought. Her, not so much. With her, I have discovered, it is always there in her subconscious, and takes almost nothing for me to bring it roaring to the surface.

What this translates to goes down the road of responsive desire on her part. I have to be the one to initiate most of the time. Or so I thought...We have talked about this at great length, and her initiation is very subtle, but since figuring it out, holy crap it's there all the time! She's not the type to put on the stripper heels and dance for me, or throw me down and just take me. She'll get into bed naked and not say a word. She'll roll over on her side and scoot into me to snuggle, but will start moving her ass a little bit. Getting undressed for a shower, she'll slowly take her top off. All those kinds of things and more are her way of saying come take me.

She has never rejected me. The days we have not had sex, she has always given a rain check and made good on it. The same with me.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

I think modern women are just really busy and over extend themselves ("if I don't do xyz, I'm a bad mom"). The husband is the easiest to deprioritize, because he'll usually take it. Children, being totally dependent, take top priority and neglecting work will get you fired. Being pulled many directions and having little "me" time, many women start to view their husbands as just another demand on their time. I'm inclined to think there's a natural lull in most women's desire after having kids, that is exacerbated by their trying to do/take on too much, and further by his needs.

Hubby gets the short stick because neglect there doesn't generally have immediate consequences. She can be slack without short-run implications, but that slack often mutates into distance, increasing detachment and eventually resentment.

I'd say a Husband could pick up her excess load, but that wasn't true in my experience. She just loaded herself up with new crap. Among working mothers I think this has something to do with guilt over working and not seeing/caring for the children as much as they would if they're a SAHM.

On the other hand, I've heard of SAHMs who lock up because they're discontent being home and with the children all the time.

I don't think sex drive is the issue most people make it out to be. I imagine drive is like a bell curve with most people sitting in the fat part of the curve. External factors like pressure and expectation are the larger part imo. Its no coincidence that the best way to tame your sex drive is to keep very busy. I think many women unknowingly do just that.

Men's typical responses probably just make matters worse. Oddly, once a complaint has been made... even if agreement is reached, analysis mode still sets in and everyone begins overthinking everything. It was like self-fulfilling prophecy in my case.

I don't know a reliable way out of the trap for men when you have to pursue sex she doesn't really want, and sex she gives is duty sex. Once his confidence that she desires him is lost, his desire to pursue is damaged, and she feels his lack of desire to pursue as a rejection - downward spiral. To my thinking the active change would have to come from her; being more sexually aggressive until his initiating desire returns. But most women prefer to play the submissive, and being the aggressor for long seeds doubt about his interest... "why isn't he chasing me?"

The whole thing is depressing. I doubt most couples that into the downward spiral manage to get back out. I certainly couldn't figure out how to break the pattern. Eventually everyone is just making excuses over perceived rejection and there's no reset button.


----------



## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> You are correct in that in order for it to work out, both spouses have to commit to putting the marriage first. I still think that the root cause of your problems is not intimacy but other facets of the marriage. I think the majority of the threads in the SIM forum are not actually based on sex as the cause of the issues, but sex issues are definitely an effect of some other root causes.
> 
> I would say that your wife fell into the parent trap by putting most of her energy into the kids. After doing that, she "lost her identity" and latched onto her job in order to rediscover who she is as an individual. It looks like she is acting like a pendulum and going between extremes.
> 
> ...


Good insight for some one that doesn't even know me or my wife. Thats why I like TAM.

I know she is not a true LD, she has proven it many times. It is easy for her to get overwhelmed by life and lose focus on us. When she went back to work after being a SAHM for 16 years I knew it would be a lot for her and was very supportive. I backed off on sex for a while knowing it would stress her, if she said I am to tired I politely let it go, told her no problem. I thought I was doing the right thing but it just kept going down hill. So iguess my role was being an enabler by not letting her know what the impact was.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> The thing is, she doesn't think about it in the same way I do. It is frequently at the front of my mind, conscious thought. Her, not so much. With her, I have discovered, it is always there in her subconscious, and takes almost nothing for me to bring it roaring to the surface.


This is common. One idea is that males typically have a proactive sexuality and females a more reactive sexuality. Thus the typical case would be male as initiator with female being responsive to his inducement.

Women will often express this as, "I always want to have sex"... but digging deeper you get, "I'm always willing to be persuaded to have sex." Though I've read research going both ways, my experience makes me inclined to believe that spontaneous sexual thought is less common in women. Its not at the forefront of their minds, but something that has to be stoked.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> This is common. One idea is that males typically have a proactive sexuality and females a more reactive sexuality. Thus the typical case would be male as initiator with female being responsive to his inducement.
> 
> Women will often express this as, "I always want to have sex"... but digging deeper you get, "I'm always willing to be persuaded to have sex." Though I've read research going both ways, my experience makes me inclined to believe that spontaneous sexual thought is less common in women. Its not at the forefront of their minds, but something that has to be stoked.


What I also find interesting is that with me, when it is not on my conscious mind for what ever reason, be it stress, arguing, things like that, it is difficult to get it on my mind, to get in the mood if you will.

With her, it is very different. Even if we are stressed, tired, have argued, all it takes is the slightest nudge and she's ready to go, and a lot of times she will still initiate in her own way. Depending on the situation, it seems almost as if she is using sex as a barometer to see if my desire for her is still there.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Yes, I think there is a lot of foot shooting going on!

I massively resent being shoe-horned into the stereotypical porn star/stripper model of women's sexuality, as it does not at all fit with who I am. This doesn't mean I'm not a very sexual person; I am, and my drive has gotten me into much trouble over the years. But the expectations placed on me just because I'm female drive me bonkers --and pushing them will just make me angry and full of resentment.

My SO has trouble even understanding where I am coming from when I complain about our current sex life. In his mind, he is happy, and can't really see why I wouldn't be. When I'm feeling generous, I can see his point. When I am in full on foot shooting mode, I can't stand that we've lost most of what made our sex life great -- and undoubtedly put too much pressure on him to act something that he's not feeling.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> What I also find interesting is that with me, when it is not on my conscious mind for what ever reason, be it stress, arguing, things like that, it is difficult to get it on my mind, to get in the mood if you will.


Good point. I'm the same way. Fortunately the mood is usually dancing around the surface of my mind. But if its not, all bets are off.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

always_alone said:


> But the expectations placed on me just because I'm female drive me bonkers --and pushing them will just make me angry and full of resentment.


Honest question... what are the expectations and how are you made aware that he has those expectations?


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

One One of the things that I have to really consciously do is not let my expectations or desires get in the way of what I do have. My STBW has a set of stripper heels, and the whole nine. She has some toys, Ben Wa's. All those are from previous relationships. 

The only time she has even brought out the heels and such was very early on in our relationship, and then, she only put them on to show me, not as some form of sex play or initiation. Only brought out the toys once. I know she used those things in the past, and it creps into my mind every now and then that she doesn't with me.

Where I have to be careful not to shoot myself in the foot is remembering that the outfits were to try and keep a cheating husband, and the toys were because she couldn't regularly get off with the guys she was with. Her desire level before me was 2-3 times a week...with me 10-15 times a week.

Would I like to have it all? Absolutely. But really, the outfits, she was never comfortable with, and the meaning behind them was far from sexy, and the toys? She says I do a better job, and they are a let down for her. I'd say I got the best of her sexuality, and am not going to shoot myself in the foot.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> *We do have mismatched drives. *


 So many many couple DO...and their libido's can CHANGE over the course of marriage too....I added this book with an outline of the 10 libido types on another thread recently, it may be helpful here also *>>*

When Your Sex Drives Don't Match: Discover Your Libido Types to Create a Mutually Satisfying Sex Life  

...also *Exercises *in the back touching on "What I hope for in my Sexual relationship"...."Describing the Mismatch"..."The Cycle of misunderstanding"..."Reasons to stay, Reasons to leave"...



> *There are 10 libido types*:
> 
> *1*. *Sensual*- What you value most is the "emotional connection" a sense of being life partners....your sensual feeling of sexual desire can persist for hours or days, but it is not necessarily urgent unless your partner shows she is in the mood. Pleasing your partner gives you considerable pleasure ~ seeing that  of contentment on her face in the afterglow ... ...greatest satisfaction comes from mutual pleasure - this does not depend on any particular technique or activity.
> 
> ...


----------



## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I get what you're saying and agree. But are you suggesting that laying in bed with your legs spread, not moving at all, not touching him at all, turning away from his kisses, is something other than passive rejection of sex with him?


I took it to mean that a lot of stuff happened on the way to corpse sex.


----------



## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

norajane said:


> I took it to mean that a lot of stuff happened on the way to corpse sex.


In a 32 year long relationship (26 married 6 years commited dating) lots of stuff happens. However there was no cheating (been accused three times but she was so wrong it wasn't funny), no EA, no abuse. Tons of effort on my part to give her a better life. We are debt free have three great kids a very nice home and life.

It is mostly that she continues to deprioritize our marriage, believes men only want sex for sex and will say anything to get in a womens pants. Her communication skills suck, her intial reaction is to always strike with anger when pressed for answers she doesn't want to give and blame shifts.

I'm the one that has a reason to be with drawn in this relationship. How many women do you know that routinely misses (ignores) their anniversary. She completely missed my last two birthdays and denies it.

I could go on with lots of examples but I have continued to try to improve this marriage while she sat on the side lines. And ya I know, if she thought i cheated on her she is probably still holding on to it. Thats what sent us to MC where I believe she went thinking she would get a confession out of me. She has no idea as to the strength of my character even after all this time.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

As an LD person, I do want to finally be able to say "Yes, sex is enjoyable and stress free". But the stress usually comes from the HD's requests (or demands) for more adventurous, more quality, more quantity.....more more more! After years of that, and adding the stress of everyday family life, sex becomes just another chore that someone is grading you on. 

The HD partner can say, "Hey I tried all I can to make this person happy and she just won't listen to me! She is just frigid, uncaring, and hates me!" Why would a person spend 15, 20 to 25 years with a person they hate?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Reasonable people can usually find some reasonable compromise that works for them. Part of the reason many LD's are hard line is that they believe that any movement towards non LD means sex 3x a day. 

Likewise HD's see the opening and sometimes may try to push for more.

A no win in either case...


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I think modern women are just really busy and over extend themselves ("if I don't do xyz, I'm a bad mom"). The husband is the easiest to deprioritize, because he'll usually take it. Children, being totally dependent, take top priority and neglecting work will get you fired. Being pulled many directions and having little "me" time, many women start to view their husbands as just another demand on their time. I'm inclined to think there's a natural lull in most women's desire after having kids, that is exacerbated by their trying to do/take on too much, and further by his needs.
> 
> Hubby gets the short stick because neglect there doesn't generally have immediate consequences. She can be slack without short-run implications, but that slack often mutates into distance, increasing detachment and eventually resentment.
> 
> ...


I agree with much of this. My husband and I were discussing a similar topic this evening, and I noted that many husbands on TAM are frustrated with the "I'm tired" or "I'm too busy" excuse when their wives find time for social media, TV, surfing, etc. Sex takes mental and emotional presence; the other activities can be done in zombie mode. Women ARE busy, they DO put tons of pressure on themselves to be good enough and do it all. It results in a tremendous amount of stress that soon becomes the norm, and it can be nearly impossible to come down off of it and relax at the end of the day. It's less work to dull the stress though zombie actives than it is to diffuse it, especially when it's going to be there staring you in the face again any moment when the baby cries or you remember the kids need clean clothes for school in the morning. Women have a hard time turning "off" all their identities and just being a sexual person, even for an hour a few times a week. (It seems like men have less of an issue with this, but perhaps I'm wrong.)

Husbands see this behavior as rejection--and it is, but confronting a woman who is tapped out but can't see it or wont admit that she is tapped out and can't healthily manage all that she has bitten off is a tricky thing. Like Dvls pointed out, feelings get hurt, things get off on the wrong foot, and resentment is already just below the surface waiting to take hold and further corrupt the dynamic. Neither side wants to admit their spouse might have a valid position--everyone digs in and down the spiral goes the marriage. 

It IS depressing and it pretty accurately describes ten long years of my relationship with my husband. We did figure out how to begin to break the pattern and start to dig ourselves out, but it takes constant work to address and repair the damage. Work that we should have been doing all along. 

I sometimes wonder if it's only after the damage is done that couples or individuals come to realize what happened. When you're in the throes of that dynamic, of those entrenched positions, you are just so _convinced_ that you are right. It's humbling to come out the other side, to say the least.


----------



## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Good thread. I have been wondering today what is good sex? I learned about sex from listening to my older brothers talking about it. I used to go in their rooms and look at their girlie magazines that they had stashed. So I think my knowledge about good meaningful sex is quite skewed. 

So naturally I marry the classic good girl who doesn't put a priority on sex and viola resentment and disappointment.

Sorry for the hi-jack.


----------



## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

techmom said:


> As an LD person, I do want to finally be able to say "Yes, sex is enjoyable and stress free". But the stress usually comes from the HD's requests (or demands) for more adventurous, more quality, more quantity.....more more more! After years of that, and adding the stress of everyday family life, sex becomes just another chore that someone is grading you on.
> 
> The HD partner can say, "Hey I tried all I can to make this person happy and she just won't listen to me! She is just frigid, uncaring, and hates me!" Why would a person spend 15, 20 to 25 years with a person they hate?


Tech mom,
It is really nice to get your perspective on this thread. I've always thought I was trying to keep it fun and interesting not demands. I just assumed my wife would see it that way too.

I never looked at it as a drive for perfection. I was trying to keep from seeing our sex life as boring same old thing.

If your husband told you that he needed sex to feel loved, he needs to be desired to feel loved and happy in your marriage would you still feel the same?


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Always Learning said:


> Tech mom,
> It is really nice to get your perspective on this thread. I've always thought I was trying to keep it fun and interesting not demands. I just assumed my wife would see it that way too.
> 
> I never looked at it as a drive for perfection. I was trying to keep from seeing our sex life as boring same old thing.
> ...


Yes, because it is still work. Look, I know that men express their love for their wives through sex. And I am willing to accomodate. But if he doesn't feel the love unless I do x,y, and z during sex then I feel that it is a demand. It ceases to be fun because he wants something beyond how I would normally express myself through sex. I feel like he wants me to accept his sexual needs but he doesn't want to accept me as I am. He needs to swing from chandeliers and act lustful and rip his clothes off in order to feel my love for him? In that case I feel a call girl could show him love better than I could. Because it would be an performance, not expressing love.

Hollywood actors perform, and it is fake. HDs need to understand that even though it doesn't feel lustful, do not throw away the LDs sexual expression as "duty sex" or "pity sex". That would shut us down completely, then you would get the "corpse sex" because the LD would have given up. Or they would reject the sex completely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Two people laying naked next to each other waiting for some inspiration to think of acts a, b, and c that are mutually agreed upon while x, y, and z are off the table because they are perceived as "demands" makes me wonder... 

There's a big difference between this and BDSM for example but if items are taken off the table one at a time until nothin is left but a 5 minute quickie.... Once you take too many x, y, and z off the table or start perceiving of everything as demands then call it by its proper name, maintenance sex. It's like chain hotels that advertise free hot breakfast and all you get is a microwaveable packet of instant oatmeal.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

techmom said:


> But if he doesn't feel the love unless I do x,y, and z during sex then I feel that it is a demand. It ceases to be fun because he wants something beyond how I would normally express myself through sex. I feel like he wants me to accept his sexual needs but he doesn't want to accept me as I am. _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do reciprocate with respect to him meeting your needs? By that, I mean do accept him for who he is in providing for your needs without requiring him to go beyond how he would normally express himself?


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

techmom said:


> Yes, because it is still work. Look, I know that men express their love for their wives through sex. And I am willing to accomodate. But if he doesn't feel the love unless I do x,y, and z during sex then I feel that it is a demand. It ceases to be fun because he wants something beyond how I would normally express myself through sex. I feel like he wants me to accept his sexual needs but he doesn't want to accept me as I am. He needs to swing from chandeliers and act lustful and rip his clothes off in order to feel my love for him? In that case I feel a call girl could show him love better than I could. Because it would be an performance, not expressing love.
> 
> Hollywood actors perform, and it is fake. HDs need to understand that even though it doesn't feel lustful, do not throw away the LDs sexual expression as "duty sex" or "pity sex". That would shut us down completely, then you would get the "corpse sex" because the LD would have given up. Or they would reject the sex completely.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is just a guess on my part, but I would wager that if your husband would approach having sex with you in a different manner, I would bet that you would become more wild in your lovemaking. My speculation is that he does too much asking and even begging for you to act a certain way at the very beginning. However, if he would actually talk less, show patience and get you revved up more with good foreplay and just let the situation flow naturally, you'd be more receptive to "rocking his world". Is that a fair assessment?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

techmom said:


> HDs need to understand that even though it doesn't feel lustful, do not throw away the LDs sexual expression as "duty sex" or "pity sex". That would shut us down completely, then you would get the "corpse sex" because the LD would have given up. Or they would reject the sex completely.


Soap box moment...

Perhaps nit picking, but I don't consider regular run-of-the-mill sex to be duty sex just because its not hanging from the chandeliers. Some people aren't sexually extravagant and that's fine. The adventure issue is really separate from the duty sex issue. Adventure is about having new experiences and fun with it, the duty sex is about a perceived lack of desire.

*Lack of desire for your husband*

What I consider duty sex, is disconnected sex. ie - he's really into her, but she's just going through the motions. I don't think the level of adventure is really a factor here. Its somewhat of a red herring... as a woman who is adventurous in bed tends to be sexually "present", if you will. So when asked what's missing, this might be what a man will say because explaining that we can't pin it down to what you're doing exactly... only that we feel the vibe that nothing you're doing is real. Again, just going through the motions.

In explaining this to women, I usually relate it to how you receive a compliment. You KNOW when a compliment is genuine and when its just lip service - but its quite difficult to pin down exactly how you know isn't it? The lip service in fact scores negative emotional points in the sense that "He's not into me enough to be genuine? He's just gonna give me a bs line and fake it?" Instead of securing love, it seeds doubt. That's what duty sex does. Just like you want to feel special, loved and desired - and you might get those from genuine compliments... we want to feel special, loved and desired and we get those from the sense that our woman actually wants and enjoys sex with us. The lack of want can be really acidic. 

*Lack of adventure*

Asking you to be more adventurous is really a separate issue even though they often come as a package. In that case, he's really saying "Hey, we do the same things over and over, I think it would be a lot of fun to mix it up and do something more wild." That means asking new things of you, and new things of him. Its *NOT* a request for higher performance or an invitation to be measured/rated. Example, a lot of women really struggle with doing a strip tease or lap dance. Asking it of you doesn't mean you have to be *good* at it by whatever measure. Its that you're behaving sexually adventurous that matters to him and he'll love it regardless. Its asking you to loosen up and let go. For the most part, we want our women to be sexually present, engaged and active... and show that, yeah, they desire us and sex is this awesome, fun thing for them too.

To me, sex is like going to a party. If you're not trying to have fun, you're probably not going to have fun and nobody can make you. Nobody talks to that person at the party because they're not really there. They aren't bringing anything to the table and their display of lack of effort/interest sends a vibe that they don't like the people/party.

Most guys I know are pretty eager to hear/know what things she desires, regardless of whether its something he's into. It signals her active desire... and gives a means that he can please her. I think a marriage is pretty much broken when either party loses the eager enjoyment of pleasing their partner. I think there's got to be a good measure of, "hey, this might not really be my thing, but I'm totally into it because I really enjoy pleasing you."


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> This is just a guess on my part, but I would wager that if your husband would approach having sex with you in a different manner, I would bet that you would become more wild in your lovemaking. My speculation is that he does too much asking and even begging for you to act a certain way at the very beginning. However, if he would actually talk less, show patience and get you revved up more with good foreplay and just let the situation flow naturally, you'd be more receptive to "rocking his world". Is that a fair assessment?


Nope, it is the "post game analysis" that pisses me off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

techmom said:


> Nope, it is the "post game analysis" that pisses me off.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wait! are you saying he critiques your performance and offers criticism/ suggestions for improvements afterwards?

That would not be cool with me either. It would be different if while having sex to suggest things that feel better or positions etc. but analyzing, I wouldn't do it.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Always Learning said:


> Wait! are you saying he critiques your performance and offers criticism/ suggestions for improvements afterwards?
> 
> That would not be cool with me either. It would be different if while having sex to suggest things that feel better or positions etc. but analyzing, I wouldn't do it.


He thinks that it is helping but it doesn't. I married when I was a virgin so he feels he needs to teach me. He probably thought I would be more compliant, but all it does is turn me off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

Wow, criticism or analysis after is a major no no. Have you told him to shut up with the analysis? 

I used to do the analysis thing too... but more like a self-analysis. I always wanted to throw out excuses/disclaimers if a given session wasn't up to par (even if only in my head). Its probably driven partly by insecurity and partly by my being a type A personality - overachiever and perfectionist. If it wasn't absolutely mind blowing sex, I'd feel compelled to go into analysis mode and justify.

These disclaimers would be saying things afterwards like, "Just a nice little quickie" to excuse a short session. Or "I wanted to keep that going but your voice just put me over the top". Even the hiccups in a great session required justification: "I know you were really into and about to orgasm when I was doing x, but my arm tired out and I couldn't keep that position anymore." (even though she had an orgasm later) No reason to say that whatsoever other than to make sure she knew I wasn't clueless and there was a reason I stopped that - a sort of insecurity I guess.

I learned a long time ago to just keep my mouth shut. That every session didn't have to be perfect, and sex of any quality was just made worse by giving upfront disclaimers or after the fact analysis of my performance. I once even added a disclaimer for my sprained wrist prior to sex, "I can't put any weight on my wrist, so this is gonna be a little limited." smh.

The expression of my insecurities is done by pointing out my perceived flaws or failures, or otherwise being dismissive of my own achievements, before anyone else can. Its retarded, but it was compulsive. Those thoughts are still there from time to time, but I put conscious effort into not voicing them.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I too fell into the analysis trap. I never did the full critique on my wife only - it tended to be more of an analysis of the both of us. But too many times it came across as me being critical of her. I didn't mean for it to be like that - at least not most of the time anyways (sorry, I'm only human!) - but that's how she interpreted it. Even to this day, if I don't see the immediate feedback from her while we're in the act she will tell me to shut up because I'm ruining the mood. Sometimes my wife likes to take a moment to just enjoy the feelings without a lot of movement. This happens sometimes, and I'm always quick to perceive it as her not being into it. But the reality is that she is, she's just trying to concentrate on some of the sensations more. For her to do that, she sometimes has to stop her movements and focus more on the sensations. 

Just some of the things I learned thru the years doing the OJT for the job of spouse.


----------



## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Sometimes my wife likes to take a moment to just enjoy the feelings without a lot of movement. This happens sometimes, and I'm always quick to perceive it as her not being into it. *But the reality is that she is, she's just trying to concentrate on some of the sensations more. For her to do that, she sometimes has to stop her movements and focus more on the sensations. *
> 
> Just some of the things I learned thru the years doing the OJT for the job of spouse.


:iagree:, and good on you for understanding this about her.

This is a hugely important point. I'm one of those women that when I get closer to an orgasm, I do have to stop all movement to 1) mentally focus on the sensation that's getting me closer to orgasm, and 2) to make sure that whatever he's doing to me doesn't change or shift away from the right spot. I also get quieter, again to help with the focus. So yeah, you get virtually dead fish right before I orgasm. 

A simple, "gee, would love for you to be louder, or talk dirty, or move more" would essentially kill my ability to actually go over the edge, and I'd feel criticized for what I do/act like/sound like when I'm doing what I actually need to do in order to orgasm.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

^ that took me a long time to grasp.

Prior to getting married and early into my marriage, I perceived her sounds to be feedback as to whether she was enjoying what I was doing. To my former way of thinking, positive feedback was audible and grabby, and negative feedback was silence or "dead fish". And for whatever reason, all those sounds also make sex more intense and enjoyable for me.

Getting that feedback is pretty important to me and is now something I look for in determining if someone has long term potential for me. The guessing game as to whether I'm hitting the right spots and how much she enjoys this or that used to drive me nuts. I despise doubt and uncertainty. If the greater part of whether this is good sex or not hinges on my performance, I need some feedback to know what she prefers without unsexy talk. I mean, at the very least... "Oh yeah, right there! Like that!" Absent more emphatic moans or signs of excitement, I really need her to at least say, "I'm gonna cum!" or she's gonna be quite disappointed when I switch up the pace or position because she went dead fish.

Without feedback, I'm going to keep cycling through my bag of tricks every few minutes. I need and enjoy a reaction.

Shoe on the other foot, I also used to think it would be kind of anticlimactic from a woman's perspective for a guy to suddenly stop all extraneous touching and exaggerated movement, go deep into his own head, silent, and become steady and deliberate to orgasm. I tend to think of orgasm as peaking in all respects. Louder, faster, rougher, BOOM... collapse and catch your breath. That many women need this quiet concentration and focus to climax was a revelation to me. Given that I enjoy and very much need that feedback, not being able to give it is a deal-breaker for me when I'm seeing someone and we start having sex. I'm just not one of those guys that can do his own thing with no attention to her reactions/feedback. Lack of feedback leaves me dissatisfied and second-guessing whether she liked this or that or whether she was thinking "wtf is he doing now?" during that part. lol I have to know. I need that feedback to make refinements that she'll get more enjoyment from, and it makes sex hotter for me to boot.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Prior to getting married and early into my marriage, I perceived her sounds to be feedback as to whether she was enjoying what I was doing. To my former way of thinking, *positive feedback was audible and grabby*, and negative feedback was silence or "dead fish". And for whatever reason,* all those sounds also make sex more intense and enjoyable for me.
> *
> *Getting that feedback is pretty important to me and is now something I look for in determining if someone has long term potential for me. The guessing game as to whether I'm hitting the right spots and how much she enjoys this or that used to drive me nuts.* I despise doubt and uncertainty. If the greater part of whether this is good sex or not hinges on my performance, I need some feedback to know what she prefers without unsexy talk. I mean, at the very least... "Oh yeah, right there! Like that!" Absent more emphatic moans or signs of excitement,* I really need her to at least say, "I'm gonna cum!" *or she's gonna be quite disappointed when I switch up the pace or position because she went dead fish.
> 
> ...


On the flip side of this... me & mine were always quiet in our beginning years.... too many years.... we were so quiet, we could have sex with our kids sleeping on the floor near our beds (and have many a mornings)... but he *ALWAYS KNEW*..... he didn't need any feedback at all...never cared... we were just THAT in tuned to each other...even if I was inhibited in some ways... wanted a sheet over me... we climaxed together up to 95% of the time... I always found that kinda amazing (with 0 feedback mind you).... this is precisely why we never talked about sex.. didn't seem to have a need to...as the orgasm was the mighty plateau ... even though we could have been doing so much MORE to spice it with more verbal, more positions...during foreplay & such.. 

The last so many years... I have gotten louder/ freer ... (finally!)....I am liable to say any darn thing now...Love it [email protected]#$ ...can't believe how mindless we were in the past... our bedroom was "Grand central station" - he allowed it!...crazy dad. 

But Yeah..now I might give a ...."Plow me baby!..." ... over just his reading my breathing....pretty much how he knew in the past...funny, I never even realized my breathing got more rapid till we talked about this.. my asking him "how in the world did he know all those years ....with not a word from me. I realize how boring we must sound.. but we weren't bored at all... every encounter was exhilarating, the fireworks.. 

For being 2 quiet somewhat repressed Lovers...at least we had this going for us... 

A funny memory of the past....We just had Sex... laying in each others arms....like 3 minutes later no kidding....and this Ernie Doll sitting in our hallway , door open...







...(the cat must must have stepped on him or something??)...and he says "I feel Greeaaat"......we looked at each other....we laughed so hard....Yep, that doll spoke for us that night..we were feeling "greeeaaat"....This should have been a wake up call for us to start talking more openly about sex.... 

If I wasn't having those orgasms every time..I know ME pretty well... frustration would have been written all over that, and I wouldn't have been able to keep quiet...I would have been working/ devising "to get MINE".... 

People can be all over the map in this.. it helps to be emotionally in tuned with your lover....we had so much foreplay while dating.. I think this prepared him in the smallest of details to know my body...how it responds... if I even had the slightest hesitation with wanting to be with him, he'd FEEL it my touch, in my kiss...this is reassuring enough -even in darkness...with not a word.....

Though words and shaking it up - some flirty verbal.. they are so good ! I do wish my husband would step it up here...he's still pretty quiet... but I can live with it.. so long as I can feel it IN HIS TOUCH....I'm good.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> On the flip side of this... me & mine were always quiet in our beginning years.... too many years.... we were so quiet, we could have sex with our kids sleeping on the floor near our beds (and have many a mornings)... but he *ALWAYS KNEW*..... he didn't need any feedback at all...never cared... we were just THAT in tuned to each other...even if I was inhibited in some ways... wanted a sheet over me... we climaxed together up to 95% of the time... I always found that kinda amazing (with 0 feedback mind you).... this is precisely why we never talked about sex.. didn't seem to have a need to...as the orgasm was the mighty plateau ... even though we could have been doing so much MORE to spice it with more verbal, more positions...during foreplay & such..
> 
> The last so many years... I have gotten louder/ freer ... (finally!)....I am liable to say any darn thing now...Love it [email protected]#$ ...can't believe how mindless we were in the past... our bedroom was "Grand central station" - he allowed it!...crazy dad.
> 
> ...


Reposted for truth. I wish my hubby and I had this chemistry, it would save all of the guesswork. He was never intuitive, he messed around with many women who were over the top in bed. He became accustomed to that, then here I come along. A virgin who is uncomfortable with her sexuality, he wanted me to be like the other women he had. But I'm not them. 

He had a one size fits all approach to sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

techmom said:


> Reposted for truth. I wish my hubby and I had this chemistry, it would save all of the guesswork. He was never intuitive, he messed around with many women who were over the top in bed. He became accustomed to that, then here I come along. A virgin who is uncomfortable with her sexuality, he wanted me to be like the other women he had. But I'm not them.
> 
> He had a one size fits all approach to sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess the lesson here is that we shouldn't marry someone hoping to chage them.

Do you think you would be LD in a different relationship wher the critiquing and comparing to previous woman wasn't taking place?

I bet that under different circumstances you may not be LD (for lack of a better term).


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Always Learning said:


> I guess the lesson here is that we shouldn't marry someone hoping to chage them.
> 
> Do you think you would be LD in a different relationship wher the critiquing and comparing to previous woman wasn't taking place?
> 
> *I bet that under different circumstances you may not be LD (for lack of a better term).*


I think you are getting at something I have posted about before and have wondered about.

Low Drive vs Low Desire. A truly Low Drive person will not want or need much sex period, regardless of the variables. Low Desire on the other hand is very much dependent on the variables and varies from partner to partner.

Take my case for example. The last four years of my marriage were sexless. I had NO desire for my ex wife, though by many mens standards, she was a knock out. Blonde, 5'3" 105 lbs toned yoga body. I still wanted and needed sex, just not with her. Even at our peak in that marriage, we only had sex 5-6 times a week.

My relationship with my STBW...off the charts desire for both of us. Desire like neither of us have ever had before. We have held steady for the last year and a half at 10-15 times a week..way more than either of us ever thought we wanted, even at the best times in our pasts. It's pretty clear we are both High Drive, but throw in the High Desire for the right person, and it becomes Insane Drive and Desire.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

Always Learning said:


> I guess the lesson here is that we shouldn't marry someone hoping to chage them.


I love the adage...

"Women choose a man hoping he'll change. Men choose women hoping she'll stay the same. In the end, both are disappointed." lol


----------



## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> I think you are getting at something I have posted about before and have wondered about.
> 
> Low Drive vs Low Desire. A truly Low Drive person will not want or need much sex period, regardless of the variables. Low Desire on the other hand is very much dependent on the variables and varies from partner to partner.
> 
> ...


That's exactly what I am getting at. How many times have we heard of a person's sexual desire completely change when they move onto that next new relationship. They start doing things, that if they had been doing all along wouldn't require their relationship to change.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I had an interesting experience last night and thought about this thread today. So here is a resurrection! Gasp!!  

I'm traveling for work. Last night, I tried to initiate sex and got shot down (we did it the previous day, so she's not always a big fan for having sex on consecutive days). OK, I was bummed, and was a little moody about it, but I snapped out of it. Later in the evening, we were talking about something and she asked me how I was feeling. I told her honestly that I'm feeling hard up. She playfully tries to engage me by saying something along the lines of "If I make love to you, what's in it for me?". Trust me, it was NOT one of those "pay for sex" type of situations, it was her way of being playful. My response was "forget it because I know you are not in the mood". She then says "fine" and then was irritated. I asked her why she was irritated, and she replies "You know, you're your own worst enemy and will sabotage yourself". I responded with "You just told me that you weren't in the mood, so why would I want to pursue it?". She said "I'm offering it now, and just because I may not be in the mood it doesn't mean that I can't get into the mood. We won't know until we try". 

So we have sex. It wasn't wild porn sex, but it was good. So I guess in hindsight, in this case I tried to sabotage myself unnecessarily.

For you guys who may opine that I didn't exactly come across as an "alpha sex lord", well...I don't always want to be "on" all the time. Many times I'm much more suave and manly when initiating sex, but once in awhile I don't mind taking a more low key approach where I can be lazy about it once in awhile.


----------

