# Should Guys Still Pay For First Dates?



## Jeffyboy

What are your thoughts on this subject especially in the culture we live in now where men and women are equal? In my experience, women don't like to pay at all for the first date. I like the system he proposes though. It will save a lot of headaches down the road.


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## Andy1001

If a girl insists on paying her share then it wasn’t really a date.It was just two friends meeting for coffee or a meal etc.


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## CharlieParker

What if he has a coupon for Golden Corral?

But seriously, the whoever invites then pays works for me.


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## minimalME

I haven't watched the video, but I'm not a feminist, and I don't do 'equal' on dates - or in relationships in general.

And I've never been asked to help contribute during a date. Men who've asked me out have been more than happy to pay. (I've asked for their thoughts about it.)

I'd probably not offer unless we were a couple.


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## Ynot

If I invite. I pay. If she asks if she can contribute, I suggest she leave the tip. If she insists on paying for her share, I refer to my first two statements. If she insists after that I agree.


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## Andy1001

minimalME said:


> I haven't watched the video, but I'm not a feminist, and I don't do 'equal' on dates - or in relationships in general.
> 
> And I've never been asked to help contribute during a date. Men who've asked me out have been more than happy to pay. (I've asked for their thoughts about it.)
> 
> I'd probably not offer unless we were a couple.


I agree with you,from my very first date I always tried to pay.My Dad used to drum it into me and my brother that there were two things a girl didn’t touch on a date,her pocketbook or the door.


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## Bananapeel

I think men should pay and I always expect to. However, men shouldn't go overboard and have an expensive first date.


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## toblerone

What if I treat it like tipping? The better date she is, the less she has to pay!


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## EllisRedding

CharlieParker said:


> But seriously, the whoever invites then pays works for me.


This seems like the most logical bet.


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## uhtred

If I were going on a date, I would pay, but if she asked to split, I would do so without objection. If she wanted to pay, I'd offer to split, but not insist.

I think dates should always be cheap enough that no one really cares about the cost. The effort should not be in money but in finding a nice / interesting place and being an interesting companion when you are there.


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## Notself

CharlieParker said:


> But seriously, the whoever invites then pays works for me.


So in other words, the guy always pays. OK then.


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## cc48kel

I know this subject comes up often.. But I like it when the guy pays. It shouldn't be an expensive first date, but if it was I would certainly offer to pay for something. But not all women feel this why. If I was guy and dating, I would maybe do a Saturday afternoon lunch and then splurge on the upcoming dates.

IDK-- just go with your gut feeling..


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## Machjo

My basic rule. Unless it's an open invitation (i.e. anyone who wants to come is welcome), I have generally followed the rule that he who makes the closed invitation (i.e. inviting a specific person or specific persons only) pays.


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## Red Sonja

Guys should continue to do whatever they want and, I will continue to offer to contribute/pay half/etc because it's the right and polite thing to do.


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## Livvie

Machjo said:


> My basic rule. Unless it's an open invitation (i.e. anyone who wants to come is welcome), I have generally followed the rule that he who makes the closed invitation (i.e. inviting a specific person or specific persons only) pays.


There is a man I want to ask out. I'll need to do the asking, because the way I know him is: he is a professional, I am the client, and it would be inappropriate for him to ask me. Nothing will ever happen unless I ask him. 

Is the consensus I also need to pay for the date, if he says yes?

Gosh that will be a lot of male energy on my part and him being like the female if that is so. Pursued AND treated. Not sure I want to feel like the guy on two fronts right off the bat...


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## toblerone

Livvie said:


> There is a man I want to ask out. I'll need to do the asking, because the way I know him is: he is a professional, I am the client, and it would be inappropriate for him to ask me. Nothing will ever happen unless I ask him.
> 
> Is the consensus I also need to pay for the date, if he says yes?
> 
> Gosh that will be a lot of male energy on my part and him being like the female if that is so. Pursued AND treated. Not sure I want to feel like the guy on two fronts right off the bat...


Uh, I'm not too sure about all of this. Especially since you say you're his client. That could mean a whole bunch of things.


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## Livvie

Eye doctor?

He seems interested.


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## Truthseeker1




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## Livvie

It it okay to ask out my optometrist?


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## Machjo

Livvie said:


> There is a man I want to ask out. I'll need to do the asking, because the way I know him is: he is a professional, I am the client, and it would be inappropriate for him to ask me. Nothing will ever happen unless I ask him.
> ...


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## toblerone

Livvie said:


> Eye doctor?
> 
> He seems interested.


Ok. (phew).

Yea it should be OK to ask him out. If he accepts, you should probably pay too, but prepared to negotiate down to dutch at the most he can contribute. If that gets his goat, well he can pay if there's a next time.


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## Machjo

Ethnicity plays a role too. I'm French Canadian but lived in China for a while. In China, the differences between the sexes are more blurry than they are here in some cases. In China, my female friends always paid if they invited me and I always paid if I invited them. That said, it never was a date in the romantic or sexual sense. My relationship with my female friends there was indistinguishable from that with my male friends. Things might have been different had I pursued someone romantically or sexually or she me, or maybe not. I really don't know. What I can say was that they had no qualms about paying when they were doing the inviting.

This happened even if a man invited another man or other men or a mixture of men and women. He who invites pays the bill unless it's agreed on prior. Sometimes if one person was wealthier than the others, he might offer to pay even if he was an invitee but then the onus would be on the host to accept the offer or not.


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## Livvie

toblerone said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Eye doctor?
> 
> He seems interested.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok. (phew).
> 
> Yea it should be OK to ask him out. If he accepts, you should probably pay too, but prepared to negotiate down to dutch at the most he can contribute. If that gets his goat, well he can pay if there's a next time.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a plan.


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## Machjo

...


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## Andy1001

Livvie said:


> It it okay to ask out my optometrist?


I don’t see how that should be a problem.🤓


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## toblerone

Andy1001 said:


> I don’t see how that should be a problem.🤓


I see what you did there.


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## Andy1001

toblerone said:


> I see what you did there.


Eye know that.


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## Livvie

It's crystal clear...


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## musicftw07

As a man, I don't generally have a problem paying for my date. Over time I did get far more selective of the type of woman I would take out and pay for, so dating went from a pretty substantial expense to a relatively minor one by simply taking out less women. That helped greatly.

The first "date" (if you could call it that, we had a unique start to our relationship) my girlfriend and I had was just coffee. She asked me out and offered to buy my coffee. I accepted her invitation and didn't object to her paying. Nearly two years later we're going very, very strong. Granted it was just a $2.50 cup of coffee, but the gesture was appreciated nonetheless.

Nowadays I pay for the vast majority of dates and trips. Doesn't bother me, because she reciprocates in other ways. She cooks wonderful meals for me all the time. She'll prepare my lunches for work. She'll rub my back. She'll bake treats for me. She cares for me in her ways, and I care for her in mine. It works quite well for us.


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## Elizabeth001

I prefer to pay for the first date so I don’t feel obligated for anything further if I choose. If I decide to see someone again, I let them pick where and pay. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Wolf1974

Andy1001 said:


> If a girl insists on paying her share then it wasn’t really a date.It was just two friends meeting for coffee or a meal etc.


Beat me to it and you’re exactly right. You don’t really know the person so it is just two people meeting up for the first time to see if they want to date. So Dutch or just a very cheap coffee or beer meetup is just fine. If you can’t swing that probably shouldn’t date.


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## minimalME

Wolf1974 said:


> Beat me to it and you’re exactly right. *You don’t really know the person so it is just two people meeting up for the first time to see if they want to date.*


I completely agree. You're strangers.

So, considering that you're two people who don't know one another at all, and you'd prefer for each to pay their own way to minimize _your_ risk, you'd obviously not expect to have sex by the third date, right? I mean, that's nothing - a handful of hours. You'd not share in the unreasonable expectation that if you don't have sex by the third date, you're not compatible?

Because to me...



> If you can’t swing that probably shouldn’t date.


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## MJJEAN

Livvie said:


> It it okay to ask out my optometrist?


Tricky. It depends. Sure, it's ok to ask him out. But what happens if he declines or you date for a bit and it doesn't work out? Good optometrists are hard to find in my area. If you'd be comfortable going back to him as a patient if he declined or it didn't work out, I say go for it.

Also, you're a patient, not a client, yes? You're not buying or selling office supplies, you're seeing him for diagnosis and treatment, right? It might not be ethical or legal for him to date you. If you were to date, he may have to ask you to see another doctor.



Andy1001 said:


> If a girl insists on paying her share then it wasn’t really a date.It was just two friends meeting for coffee or a meal etc.


That's how I see it, too. If we're going Dutch or I'm paying, regardless of who initiated the outing, we're buddies.





Wolf1974 said:


> Beat me to it and you’re exactly right. You don’t really know the person so it is just two people meeting up for the first time to see if they want to date. So Dutch or just a very cheap coffee or beer meetup is just fine. *If you can’t swing that probably shouldn’t date.*


When my son was about 11 he told me that he didn't have a girlfriend because he didn't have a job and girls like you to buy them food and dresses and stuff, so he'd start looking when he was old enough to work.



minimalME said:


> I completely agree. You're strangers.
> 
> So, considering that you're two people who don't know one another at all, and you'd prefer for each to pay their own way to minimize _your_ risk, you'd obviously not expect to have sex by the third date, right? I mean, that's nothing - a handful of hours. You'd not share in the unreasonable expectation that if you don't have sex by the third date, you're not compatible?
> 
> Because to me...


Huh? I read that a few times and I think I'm missing something. 

I always figured if there is a mutual attraction and desire for sex, then sex occurs. I expected sex by a 3rd meet-up, at latest, or I just assumed the guy was low drive or not interested in me other than as a friend. In other words, not compatible.


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## Andy1001

MJJEAN said:


> Tricky. It depends. Sure, it's ok to ask him out. But what happens if he declines or you date for a bit and it doesn't work out? Good optometrists are hard to find in my area. If you'd be comfortable going back to him as a patient if he declined or it didn't work out, I say go for it.
> 
> Also, you're a patient, not a client, yes? You're not buying or selling office supplies, you're seeing him for diagnosis and treatment, right? It might not be ethical or legal for him to date you. If you were to date, he may have to ask you to see another doctor.
> 
> 
> 
> That's how I see it, too. If we're going Dutch or I'm paying, regardless of who initiated the outing, we're buddies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When my son was about 11 he told me that he didn't have a girlfriend because he didn't have a job and girls like you to buy them food and dresses and stuff, so he'd start looking when he was old enough to work.
> 
> 
> 
> Huh? I read that a few times and I think I'm missing something.
> 
> I always figured if there is a mutual attraction and desire for sex, then sex occurs. I expected sex by a 3rd meet-up, at latest, or I just assumed the guy was low drive or not interested in me other than as a friend. In other words, not compatible.


When I was single,for years every date I ever had was aimed at having sex.On a VERY few occasions I hung around until the third date before having sex but I never had a fourth date if I hadn’t had sex.
Life is too short for that ****!


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## Livvie

Hi MJJEAN,

Something to think about, thank you. He is really good and my prescription is tricky due to horrible astigmatism. However! It might be worth risking it to give the date asking a try, I don't meet people like him every day. I'll gauge how he interacts with me next appointment. Last time I saw him he went above and beyond interacting with me (not yucky, but I sensed he really liked me). 

My old neighbor is a prominent orthopedic surgeon in the community, he started dating a patient and they got married...so maybe it is okay to ask re date...


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## EllisRedding

If I went on a date, I would expect to pay, but I wouldn't be insistent on it if the female wanted to pay a portion of it. However, if a female invited me out for a date and doesn't even offer to pay, that would be a huge red flag to me. 

Side note, who pays if two dudes or two ladies go out on a date lol? What if both don't identify as any gender?


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## Andy1001

Livvie said:


> Hi MJJEAN,
> 
> Something to think about, thank you. He is really good and my prescription is tricky due to horrible astigmatism. However! It might be worth risking it to give the date asking a try, I don't meet people like him every day. I'll gauge how he interacts with me next appointment. Last time I saw him he went above and beyond interacting with me (not yucky, but I sensed he really liked me).
> 
> My old neighbor is a prominent orthopedic surgeon in the community, he started dating a patient and they got married...so maybe it is okay to ask re date...


Just don’t make a spectacle of yourself.
These jokes are getting cornea.


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## SoFlaGuy

I've been out of the dating scene for a long time, and maybe I'm old fashioned but I'm paying for the date.


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## Livvie

Andy1001 said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi MJJEAN,
> 
> Something to think about, thank you. He is really good and my prescription is tricky due to horrible astigmatism. However! It might be worth risking it to give the date asking a try, I don't meet people like him every day. I'll gauge how he interacts with me next appointment. Last time I saw him he went above and beyond interacting with me (not yucky, but I sensed he really liked me).
> 
> My old neighbor is a prominent orthopedic surgeon in the community, he started dating a patient and they got married...so maybe it is okay to ask re date...
> 
> 
> 
> Just don’t make a spectacle of yourself.
> These jokes are getting cornea.
Click to expand...

I'll eyeball the situation for additional clarity and insight before asking him...


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## MJJEAN

Andy1001 said:


> When I was single,for years every date I ever had was aimed at having sex.On a VERY few occasions I hung around until the third date before having sex but I never had a fourth date if I hadn’t had sex.
> Life is too short for that ****!


Isn't the whole point of dating to find someone you're attracted to and compatible with in order to have a relationship including sex? So, it makes perfect sense that you'd have wanted to only continue seeing women who A) had comparable sex drives and B) found you sexually appealing to the degree that they wanted to separate you from your boxers. (I may be wrong, but you don't seem like the tighty ****** type)




Livvie said:


> Hi MJJEAN,
> 
> Something to think about, thank you. He is really good and my prescription is tricky due to horrible astigmatism. However! It might be worth risking it to give the date asking a try, I don't meet people like him every day. I'll gauge how he interacts with me next appointment. Last time I saw him he went above and beyond interacting with me (not yucky, but I sensed he really liked me).
> 
> My old neighbor is a prominent orthopedic surgeon in the community, he started dating a patient and they got married...so maybe it is okay to ask re date...


It's a strange thing, dating patients. I know it's considered unethical and professional board censure is possible, but that would require someone making some kind of complaint. I also know it's illegal in some places, but am fuzzy on that, too. And I know it's done. You wouldn't be the first person online or IRL that I have heard date their doctor, if you ask and he agrees. I thought I should point it out in case he says no because he's worried about ethics or legal complications.

If you ask, maybe tell him you'd be willing to see another doctor if ethics are an issue? I'm sure he could recommend someone or pass you off to a partner if he is in practice with other optometrists.


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## arbitrator

*Guess I'm just a male Chauvinist of sorts! As the guy, I generally always pay! But if she wants to tip or at least helps contribute to it, then I will generally have no difficulty in letting her!

The only time that a female has paid for my meal is if it's my birthday or there's some kind of a personal celebration!*


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## Holdingontoit

We have had many threads on this topic.

The "trap" for guys is that some women will be insulted if you let her pay at all. They want to offer to pay, but have the guy politely decline their offer. So the question for the guy is whether he wants to have a relationship with a woman who feels that way (that the guy should always pay). Because guys will get "nexted" over allowing her to pay. But maybe that is a good outcome for the guy (dodges a bullet). All depends on what kind of woman the guy is looking for. After all, with a different woman you would get duped for NOT letting her pay.

So the "who pays?" issue is not neutral. There are correct and incorrect answers. Which vary from woman to woman. For the man, the idea is to know which outcomes lines up with which kind of woman. and then choose the strategy that is a "winner" with the kind of woman you are looking for.

And even then there are no guarantees. She offered so I let her pay for 1/2 of our first date (we were earning about the same amount at the time and I did not want to insult her). She was secretly very unhappy that I let her pay. Yet somehow we ended up married. We would probably have both been better off if she had followed her instincts and nexted me.


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## EllisRedding

Holdingontoit said:


> We have had many threads on this topic.
> 
> The "trap" for guys is that some women will be insulted if you let her pay at all. They want to offer to pay, but have the guy politely decline their offer. So the question for the guy is whether he wants to have a relationship with a woman who feels that way (that the guy should always pay). Because guys will get "nexted" over allowing her to pay. But maybe that is a good outcome for the guy (dodges a bullet). All depends on what kind of woman the guy is looking for. After all, with a different woman you would get duped for NOT letting her pay.
> 
> So the "who pays?" issue is not neutral. There are correct and incorrect answers. Which vary from woman to woman. For the man, the idea is to know which outcomes lines up with which kind of woman. and then choose the strategy that is a "winner" with the kind of woman you are looking for.
> 
> And even then there are no guarantees. She offered so I let her pay for 1/2 of our first date (we were earning about the same amount at the time and I did not want to insult her). She was secretly very unhappy that I let her pay. Yet somehow we ended up married. We would probably have both been better off if she had followed her instincts and nexted me.


Crazy how something is going out to eat requires such a deep analysis of the various outcomes lol


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## Livvie

Holdingontoit said:


> We have had many threads on this topic.
> 
> The "trap" for guys is that some women will be insulted if you let her pay at all. They want to offer to pay, but have the guy politely decline their offer. So the question for the guy is whether he wants to have a relationship with a woman who feels that way (that the guy should always pay). Because guys will get "nexted" over allowing her to pay. But maybe that is a good outcome for the guy (dodges a bullet). All depends on what kind of woman the guy is looking for. After all, with a different woman you would get duped for NOT letting her pay.
> 
> So the "who pays?" issue is not neutral. There are correct and incorrect answers. Which vary from woman to woman. For the man, the idea is to know which outcomes lines up with which kind of woman. and then choose the strategy that is a "winner" with the kind of woman you are looking for.
> 
> And even then there are no guarantees. She offered so I let her pay for 1/2 of our first date (we were earning about the same amount at the time and I did not want to insult her). She was secretly very unhappy that I let her pay. Yet somehow we ended up married. We would probably have both been better off if she had followed her instincts and nexted me.


I think there are lots of factors at play, incuding past history. In my last relationship, the man took advantage of my giving nature, and even though he earned twice what I did, I paid for half of everything, or MORE, for years. His part of a restaurant bill was consistently at least $20 to $40 more than what I ordered (him: multiple expensive drinks, seafood apps and expensive specials, me: no drinks and mostly way cheaper vegetarian meals). So when we split it in half, my "half" was paying for what I had and more, sometimes $20 more than what I ordered, including tip. Every time. 

So, when dating again, after years of never having someone treat me to dinner and in fact paying a share of my date's dinner every single ****ing time, it would be very special to me to have a man treat me to dinner. I might next a man who shows tendencies of my ex.


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## FalCod

Haven't dated anyone other than my wife in decades, so I can only speculate. I would be flexible. I'd make it appear as though I didn't care and was assuming that I was paying but would happily split costs if that seemed to make her happy. 

It wouldn't be a big deal for me anyway as of my dates were (and probably still would be) very low cost. I don't drink, so alcohol expenses don't exist. I'm not much for fine dining, so meal costs are trivial. Most of the stuff I like to do is free or nearly so - hiking, biking, canoeing, games, art projects, exploring, etc. At my age, worrying over who is going to carry the share of a $20 outing seems silly.

It was always my approach to try to impress dates with who I naturally am rather than with expensive dates. The result for me was a wife that is very frugal and loves me dearly. Few of my friends that spent more to impress their dates were as fortunate.


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## Andy1001

EllisRedding said:


> Crazy how something is going out to eat requires such a deep analysis of the various outcomes lol


This is exactly what I think too.When I dated I always assumed I was paying so I spent the evening getting to know my date instead of worrying about who was paying.
On my very first date to the movies almost twenty years ago my Dad asked me had I enough money to pay for both of us.I said I had and he told me that girls have to buy things that boys didn’t,he also said that if you get a reputation for being mean then girls won’t want to date you.All these years later I still think that is good advice.


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## Machjo

...


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## minimalME

MJJEAN said:


> Huh? I read that a few times and I think I'm missing something.
> 
> I always figured if there is a mutual attraction and desire for sex, then sex occurs. I expected sex by a 3rd meet-up, at latest, or I just assumed the guy was low drive or not interested in me other than as a friend. In other words, not compatible.


We're defining 'compatible' differently. 

Sex by the third date is nothing more than an immature lack of self-control. It'd be much more honest to just admit that you're in lust and want to get laid.

It has absolutely nothing to do with love or a genuine, lifelong connection - which is something that takes a lot of time.

And you may even have amazing sex together. That's not devotion.

This type of behavior (quick sex) probably serves those who're into serial monogamy, but I don't believe the majority are capable of sussing out relational compatibility in three dates. You're STILL strangers. 

Not to say that people who have sex early on don't get married. I know at least one poster here has.

But to presume that someone isn't compatible because they haven't taken off their clothes and shared the most intimate part of themselves within 72 hours, (being generous and assuming your 3 dates are a full 24 hours), is ridiculous.

That people are so willing to go along with this nonsense is shocking. Especially the women. I totally get why the men love it, but that the women are unable to see how easy, readily available sex is destroying meaningful relationships is astonishing.


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## MJJEAN

minimalME said:


> We're defining 'compatible' differently.
> 
> Sex by the third date is nothing more than an immature lack of self-control. It'd be much more honest to just admit that you're in lust and want to get laid.
> 
> It has absolutely nothing to do with love or a genuine, lifelong connection - which is something that takes a lot of time.
> 
> And you may even have amazing sex together. That's not devotion.
> 
> This type of behavior (quick sex) probably serves those who're into serial monogamy, but I don't believe the majority are capable of sussing out relational compatibility in three dates. You're STILL strangers.
> 
> Not to say that people who have sex early on don't get married. I know at least one poster here has.
> 
> But to presume that someone isn't compatible because they haven't taken off their clothes and shared the most intimate part of themselves within 72 hours, (being generous and assuming your 3 dates are a full 24 hours), is ridiculous.
> 
> That people are so willing to go along with this nonsense is shocking. Especially the women. I totally get why the men love it, but that the women are unable to see how easy, readily available sex is destroying meaningful relationships is astonishing.


I don't think we're defining compatibility differently at all. We just have different points of view.

I don't see any reason to wait if there is a mutual attraction and desire for sex. I am a lusty lady who frequently wants to get laid, so a lusty man who wants to get laid is one of the first points of compatibility I look for. I think sex _can_ be about connection, an expression of love, but isn't usually. Usually, at least for me, sex is about sex. So, a man who wanted to wait an extended period of time for sex or who thinks sex is about connection, love, and devotion wouldn't be compatible with me.

In my view, sex and sexual compatibility are crucial to a relationship and part of the early getting to know each other process includes having sex. When I was single I had no desire to become emotionally attached in any way to a man that I was not sexually compatible with. So, I wanted to establish whether or not we were sexually compatible very early on. For me, easy, readily available sex is a prerequisite for any chance at a meaningful relationship.


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## 269370

When I dated my wife I always took her to places where everything was pre-paid already. I never liked the awkwardness of having to deal with the cheque at the table. So I would give my credit card details to the head waiter beforehand.
Her menus also didn’t have prices on them.
I don’t understand the deal of who is paying/not paying. Comparing the cost of a first date to how much you pay when you are married (or worse, get divorced) is like comparing an atom with the universe.

As to when it’s appropriate to have sex...
I didn’t think there was a rule? If I was dating again, I would instinctively wait as long as possible. I think it’s nice to have a woman appear like she is wanting you more. I still remember first kiss with my wife: she kissed me first because I waited and waited...
Although somebody else might probably think I was asexual or something.

I don’t think there’s a right or wrong. Nor does it matter particularly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Andy1001

minimalME said:


> We're defining 'compatible' differently.
> 
> Sex by the third date is nothing more than an immature lack of self-control. It'd be much more honest to just admit that you're in lust and want to get laid.
> 
> It has absolutely nothing to do with love or a genuine, lifelong connection - which is something that takes a lot of time.
> 
> And you may even have amazing sex together. That's not devotion.
> 
> This type of behavior (quick sex) probably serves those who're into serial monogamy, but I don't believe the majority are capable of sussing out relational compatibility in three dates. You're STILL strangers.
> 
> Not to say that people who have sex early on don't get married. I know at least one poster here has.
> 
> But to presume that someone isn't compatible because they haven't taken off their clothes and shared the most intimate part of themselves within 72 hours, (being generous and assuming your 3 dates are a full 24 hours), is ridiculous.
> 
> That people are so willing to go along with this nonsense is shocking. Especially the women. I totally get why the men love it, but that the women are unable to see how easy, readily available sex is destroying meaningful relationships is astonishing.


Obviously I dont know you or what age you are,maybe you are divorced and dating again.When I was dating I had one purpose only,to get laid as often and as soon as possible.I had my own place when I was sixteen and until I was twenty seven I never got emotionally involved with a woman.I wasn’t looking for a relationship,I was having too much fun. 
You seem to look on every date as a possible long term relationship and if that is what you want then who am I to argue with you.You may be missing out on a lot of fun though,just because a woman has a healthy libido and acts on it doesn’t mean there is something intrinsically wrong with her.
You have been on tam for a long time,surely you have read many stories about the problems in a marriage when one partner doesn’t seem to need or want a regular sex life. Isn’t it better to marry a partner that you know you are sexually compatible with rather than a blushing virgin who sees sex as something to be done reluctantly, in the dark,on the first Saturday of the month.


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## Wolf1974

minimalME said:


> I completely agree. You're strangers.
> 
> So, considering that you're two people who don't know one another at all, and you'd prefer for each to pay their own way to minimize _your_ risk, you'd obviously not expect to have sex by the third date, right? I mean, that's nothing - a handful of hours. You'd not share in the unreasonable expectation that if you don't have sex by the third date, you're not compatible?
> 
> Because to me...


I don’t have expectations when it comes to dating Why would you assume I would


----------



## Machjo

...


----------



## MJJEAN

Machjo said:


> If you aggressively pursue, you would have scared me on a date.


Hell no! Aggressive pursuit isn't my style. In the immortal words of Prince "Don't make me chase you, even doves have pride."


----------



## Machjo

...


----------



## lifeistooshort

Speaking only for myself of course, but I appreciate it when a guy pays on the first date.

It tells me that he's really interested.

But I'd be uncomfortable with something expensive, and would happily offer to split or pay on the second date.


----------



## CuddleBug

Jeffyboy said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1RgXgDAGBU
> 
> What are your thoughts on this subject especially in the culture we live in now where men and women are equal? In my experience, women don't like to pay at all for the first date. I like the system he proposes though. It will save a lot of headaches down the road.




- I believe in chivalry, so I do pull out a chair for Mrs.CuddleBug, open the door, the yes, pay for the initial dates.


- After many dates, then if Mrs.CuddleBug wanted to pay for us going out, I have no issues with that and after being married, it doesn't matter who pays for the meals and treats anymore.


- But we don't each pay our own way. That's more like friends paying for their own meals.


- To me, it doesn't matter even if its 2018+, I will still be chivalrous to my lady and watch over her and take the initiative. In my eyes, men are to take care of their ladies, that means being the captain and she is his first mate, protect her, and have her interests at heart.


- Call it old fashioned, but men are to be protectors of their ladies.


----------



## Elizabeth001

I’d rather be co-captain 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Young at Heart

Jeffyboy said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1RgXgDAGBU
> 
> What are your thoughts on this subject especially in the culture we live in now where men and women are equal? In my experience, women don't like to pay at all for the first date. I like the system he proposes though. It will save a lot of headaches down the road.


In the culture we now live in if I were young and single, I would pay for the first date, if she would sign a sexual consent agreement. Yes, things are that sick that while everyone is sober and unemotional you need to get the paperwork out of the way. :surprise:


----------



## chillymorn69

The ultimate **** test for many woman!

If he doesn't pay then shes ghosting him.


----------



## minimalME

Andy1001 said:


> Obviously I dont know you or what age you are,maybe you are divorced and dating again.When I was dating* I had one purpose only,to get laid as often and as soon as possible.*I had my own place when I was sixteen and until I was twenty seven I never got emotionally involved with a woman.I wasn’t looking for a relationship,I was having too much fun.


Exactly. Most men are gonna do that anyway - even if they say otherwise. That's the thing. You wanna go out and get laid? Say so. Be upfront and _honest_. Most men don't do that. And I understand and accept that about men.

I don't want to be your one night stand. I don't want to be your post divorce ego boost. I don't want to be an experience. I don't want to be your fun.



> You seem to look on every date as a possible long term relationship and if that is what you want then who am I to argue with you. You may be missing out on a lot of fun though,just because a woman has a healthy libido and acts on it doesn’t mean there is something intrinsically wrong with her.


Yes, I do. That's what dating is for me. It's a stepping stone toward marriage. It's not a form of entertainment for me, which is exactly what dating and sex have become. And it's all very fragile and falls apart at the smallest sign of being 'incompatible'. 



> You have been on tam for a long time,surely you have read many stories about the problems in a marriage when one partner doesn’t seem to need or want a regular sex life. Isn’t it better to marry a partner that you know you are sexually compatible with rather than a blushing virgin who sees sex as something to be done reluctantly, in the dark,on the first Saturday of the month.


I'm 50, and I've been divorced since 2010. I was in a sexless marriage for 20 years, so I TOTALLY understand wanting a great sex life as part of a great marriage. But I still think that sex by the third date is a ridiculous expectation. It's putting your bodies first instead of your minds and your hearts.

I'm not a man, and I'm not gonna behave like a man. As a woman, I bond through sex, and I want to know who I'm getting attached to.


----------



## minimalME

Wolf1974 said:


> I don’t have expectations when it comes to dating Why would you assume I would


So you don't? Okay. I apologize.

Why would I assume you would? Because it's human.


----------



## 269370

minimalME said:


> Exactly. Most men are gonna do that anyway - even if they say otherwise. That's the thing. You wanna go out and get laid? Say so. Be upfront and _honest_. Most men don't do that. And I understand and accept that about men.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want to be your one night stand. I don't want to be your post divorce ego boost. I don't want to be an experience. I don't want to be your fun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I do. That's what dating is for me. It's a stepping stone toward marriage. It's not a form of entertainment for me, which is exactly what dating and sex have become. And it's all very fragile and falls apart at the smallest sign of being 'uncompatible'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm 50, and I've been divorced since 2010. I was in a sexless marriage for 20 years, so I TOTALLY understand wanting a great sex life as part of a great marriage. But I still think that sex by the third date is a ridiculous expectation. It's putting your bodies first instead of your minds and your hearts.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not a man, and I'm not gonna behave like a man. As a woman, I bond through sex, and I want to know who I'm getting attached to.



Actually I can’t have ONSs or ‘get laid’ if I don’t know the woman very well. Always had this problem. It’s psychological ‘cos I never have performance anxieties with wife. I have other anxieties with her but that’s a different thing.
I never managed to ‘train’ my mind to just enjoy it and get laid with anyone. 
I have met a few guys like that actually so not sure the prevailing truism about guys just wanting to get laid is correct.
I think a lot brag about it but it’s not the same as when it actually comes to it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## minimalME

inmyprime said:


> Actually I can’t have ONSs or ‘get laid’ if I don’t know the woman very well. Always had this problem. It’s psychological ‘cos I never have performance anxieties with wife. I have other anxieties with her but that’s a different thing.
> I never managed to ‘train’ my mind to just enjoy it and get laid with anyone.
> *I have met a few guys like that actually so not sure the prevailing truism about guys just wanting to get laid is correct.*
> I think a lot brag about it but it’s not the same as when it actually comes to it.


I would love to meet a man who wants to date me just to learn more about me. So far, that desire seems more like a quest for a unicorn.


----------



## FalCod

minimalME said:


> Exactly. Most men are gonna do that anyway - even if they say otherwise. That's the thing. You wanna go out and get laid? Say so. Be upfront and _honest_. Most men don't do that. And I understand and accept that about men.
> 
> I don't want to be your one night stand. I don't want to be your post divorce ego boost. I don't want to be an experience. I don't want to be your fun.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I do. That's what dating is for me. It's a stepping stone toward marriage. It's not a form of entertainment for me, which is exactly what dating and sex have become. And it's all very fragile and falls apart at the smallest sign of being 'uncompatible'.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm 50, and I've been divorced since 2010. I was in a sexless marriage for 20 years, so I TOTALLY understand wanting a great sex life as part of a great marriage. But I still think that sex by the third date is a ridiculous expectation. It's putting your bodies first instead of your minds and your hearts.
> 
> I'm not a man, and I'm not gonna behave like a man. As a woman, I bond through sex, and I want to know who I'm getting attached to.


What you say is true of most men, but by no means all. Read up on sociosexual orientation. It's a person's willingness to have sex outside of a committed relationship. Women have, on average, a lower sociosexual orientation, but both genders have people across a very broad spectrum. 

I have a very low sociosexual orientation (although not that low on attitude, just desire and action). I was never comfortable with sex outside of a committed relationship. From a physical standpoint, the idea seemed great, but from an emotional standpoint, it always seemed sort of creepy/scary and so I didn't do it. I wasn't comfortable with it until months into a relationship when I was confident that the person I was with was someone I would always want to be with. I wasn't constantly turning down opportunities from women throwing themselves at me, but there were times when I was the physical brakes in a relationship. It may be that my caution in that aspect of our relationship contributes to my wife's trust in me. She knows that it took months of my adoring her and wooing her before I took things to that level. 

I completely agree with you about bonding through sex. I witnessed guys date women because they were easy only to start falling in love with them because they were easy frequently and that bonding started to happen. It is also one reason why my wife and I have always been very active in the physical side of our relationship. Aside from the pleasurable aspects of it, we love the bonding that it brings.


----------



## 269370

minimalME said:


> I would love to meet a man who wants to date me just to learn more about me. So far, that desire seems more like a quest for a unicorn.


I'll see if I can create a WhatApp group and let you you know 

The More-Nigthtstand-Material (MNM).


----------



## minimalME

FalCod said:


> What you say is true of most men, but by no means all.


I loved your post - thank you!

And, yes - I agree it's not all men. Just the men who've asked me out and walked away.

But they all willingly paid for dates. Keeping in line with the theme of the thread.


----------



## 269370

I was actually very surprised that there are much more women who would be happy with casual sex. I have a friend who is ONS material and the stories he tells are incredible. It's all kinds of women; singe, married, divorced, committed, pregnant, feminists, lesbians.... (He doesn't even have a very high sex drive and sighs heavily whenever a woman picks him up in a bar for sex. I don't think he enjoys it much and finds it a bit of a chore. But the need for casual sex exists in women much more than I assumed since when I was a naive teenager.


----------



## minimalME

inmyprime said:


> I'll see if I can create a WhatApp group and let you you know
> 
> The More-Nigthtstand-Material (MNM).


A ONS with MMs I can do. :smthumbup:


----------



## 269370

minimalME said:


> A ONS with MMs I can do. :smthumbup:


All that love goes straight to hips though...:laugh:


----------



## Andy1001

inmyprime said:


> I was actually very surprised that there are much more women who would be happy with casual sex. I have a friend who is ONS material and the stories he tells are incredible. It's all kinds of women; singe, married, divorced, committed, pregnant, feminists, lesbians.... (He doesn't even have a very high sex drive and sighs heavily whenever a woman picks him up in a bar for sex. I don't think he enjoys it much and finds it a bit of a chore. But the need for casual sex exists in women much more than I assumed since when I was a naive teenager.


That’s a huge attraction for any woman,the fact that he is so nonchalant about having sex with them.They start to see him as a challenge rather than seeing themselves as a prize.
Having heterosexual sex with lesbians though.........not so convinced about that part.I lived with my lesbian best friend and her partner for years and they had lots of friends in the lgbt community,I never once heard a gay woman say she would like to have sex with a man.
If she was bisexual maybe but not gay,I think your friend may be exaggerating his conquests.


----------



## Andy1001

Ynot said:


> If I invite. I pay. If she asks if she can contribute, I suggest she leave the tip. If she insists on paying for her share, I refer to my first two statements. If she insists after that I agree.


This is a good idea.It gives an early opportunity to see how generous she is when there is no set amount due.


----------



## minimalME

Andy1001 said:


> This is a good idea.It gives an early opportunity to see how generous she is when there is no set amount due.


Meh - not really.

I'm financially independent and very generous, but that's unrelated to me being unwilling to pay on dates.


----------



## Ynot

inmyprime said:


> I was actually very surprised that there are much more women who would be happy with casual sex. I have a friend who is ONS material and the stories he tells are incredible. It's all kinds of women; singe, married, divorced, committed, pregnant, feminists, lesbians.... (He doesn't even have a very high sex drive and sighs heavily whenever a woman picks him up in a bar for sex. I don't think he enjoys it much and finds it a bit of a chore. But the need for casual sex exists in women much more than I assumed since when I was a naive teenager.


Most women enjoy sex as much or more than many men do, which was also an eye opener to me post divorce. I think boys and men are taught at early age that women are these dainty, fragile little things, to be handled with care so as to not get broken. The reality is that if you get three women together alone, they would probably make an entire locker room blush to hear them just talking about sex.


----------



## 269370

Andy1001 said:


> That’s a huge attraction for any woman,the fact that he is so nonchalant about having sex with them.They start to see him as a challenge rather than seeing themselves as a prize.
> Having heterosexual sex with lesbians though.........not so convinced about that part.I lived with my lesbian best friend and her partner for years and they had lots of friends in the lgbt community,I never once heard a gay woman say she would like to have sex with a man.
> If she was bisexual maybe but not gay,I think your friend may be exaggerating his conquests.


:smile2: Unfortunately I was around to witness them first hand. And got scarred for life


----------



## Andy1001

minimalME said:


> Meh - not really.
> 
> I'm financially independent and very generous, but that's unrelated to me being unwilling to pay on dates.


I was talking about letting your date pay the tip if she insists on wanting to contribute.If there is no set amount of money due and it is up to the individuals generosity, then watching her leave five dollars tip on a hundred and twenty dollar tab will tell me a lot.


----------



## minimalME

Andy1001 said:


> I was talking about letting your date pay the tip if she insists on wanting to contribute.If there is no set amount of money due and it is up to the individuals generosity, then watching her leave five dollars tip on a hundred and twenty dollar tab will tell me a lot.


Ah - got it!


----------



## 269370

Ynot said:


> Most women enjoy sex as much or more than many men do, which was also an eye opener to me post divorce. I think boys and men are taught at early age that women are these dainty, fragile little things, to be handled with care so as to not get broken. The reality is that if you get three women together alone, they would probably make an entire locker room blush to hear them just talking about sex.


Yes but I was just not always 100% convinced if it's the sex they enjoy, or the prospect of having found a suitable mate which in turns makes some women horny and since they know how much men enjoy sex. I am not saying this happens consciously. i just never understood what can be so attractive about men 
There's no denying that the sex drive works differently for men and women (nor should it be sexist to point it out or acknowledge it IMO). 
The trick is, whether the sex stays as wild and crazy after a few years into the relationship.


----------



## 269370

Andy1001 said:


> I was talking about letting your date pay the tip if she insists on wanting to contribute.If there is no set amount of money due and it is up to the individuals generosity, then watching her leave five dollars tip on a hundred and twenty dollar tab will tell me a lot.


That her math could be better? 

I get really stressed out in US with all that tipping. They just add an 'optional charge' to the bill by default in UK - much easier on the brain and there's no chance of forgetting.
I just didn't let the cheque get anywhere near the table in the first place. I think it's somehow demeaning to let the woman get the tip. If I was a woman, it would leave a bitter after taste I think. It's like buying a piece of jewellery and asking to pay for the wrapping paper. Seems odd.

I don't think it ever happened that I let a woman pay. Or anybody pay in fact. I get very uncomfortable and always insist on paying the bill with anyone (men OR women) to the point where my wife almost forbids me to eat out with anyone because of it.

I know we are all supposed to be equal etc...It's just an archaic habit.


----------



## Andy1001

Ynot said:


> Most women enjoy sex as much or more than many men do, which was also an eye opener to me post divorce. I think boys and men are taught at early age that women are these dainty, fragile little things, to be handled with care so as to not get broken. The reality is that if you get three women together alone, they would probably make an entire locker room blush to hear them just talking about sex.


When I was young I was in a very small school,at the start my class had twelve girls,me,and one other guy who came out as gay at eighteen.I learned at a very young age there is nothing dainty or fragile about girls and as for handling them carefully, lol.
My school believed in everyone trying every subject so the boxing lessons were great fun,nothing like having some girl trying to punch you,you not wanting to hit her back, while your teammates are screaming at you to knock her out.Really builds character!
It was great.


----------



## Notself

Ynot said:


> Most women enjoy sex as much or more than many men do


Citation needed.

Seriously, this assertion is far from my and many men's lived experiences. It's like you're not even reading these forums.


----------



## minimalME

Notself said:


> Citation needed.
> 
> Seriously, this assertion is far from my and many men's lived experiences. It's like you're not even reading these forums.


I think we all enjoy the thrill of meeting someone we're attracted to who's also attracted to us. But that instant high is not an accurate barometer of lifelong compatibility. It's just lust.


----------



## Livvie

Notself said:


> Ynot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most women enjoy sex as much or more than many men do
> 
> 
> 
> Citation needed.
> 
> Seriously, this assertion is far from my and many men's lived experiences. It's like you're not even reading these forums.
Click to expand...

I enjoy sex as much as a man does. I work with mostly women, I just counted 9, big age range (24 to early 60s) who I've chatted with enough over many years to know that they enjoy frequent sex with their husbands. My close personal friends definitely!! do (age very late 40s). 

I think the men in sexually compromised relationships come on a forum to post. It's a self selected group.


----------



## Andy1001

Notself said:


> Citation needed.
> 
> Seriously, this assertion is far from my and many men's lived experiences. It's like you're not even reading these forums.


You’re obviously not meeting the right women.I was a serial dater for years,I traveled all over the world and I never had a problem meeting women that had a good healthy libido.Unfortunately, it seems to me a lot of men want to meet innocent virgins who never touched a penis in their lives and then the men can’t understand why these girls don’t turn into raging nymphomaniacs overnight.
It doesn’t work that way my friend.
I don’t know anything about you obviously,so I’m not sure if you are in a sexless marriage or if you are single.Without getting too personal can I ask you these questions.
Are you good in bed,do you know how to please a woman and more to the point do you know how to please the woman you have,if you have one that is.
Are you clean,do you shower at least once a day?
Are you fit,do you dress well.Dont expect to attract any woman if you are not attractive yourself.I don’t mean that you have to be handsome but you have to make the most of what you have.


----------



## Ynot

Andy1001 said:


> I was talking about letting your date pay the tip if she insists on wanting to contribute.If there is no set amount of money due and it is up to the individuals generosity, then watching her leave five dollars tip on a hundred and twenty dollar tab will tell me a lot.


It also gives you some insight into their level of entitlement when they don't even offer. Most people do not want to be parasites, they will make at least make an offer to pay their share or at least the tip. When they don't I know right away that I have an entitled little princess on hand.


----------



## MJJEAN

Andy1001 said:


> When I was young I was in a very small school,at the start my class had twelve girls,me,and one other guy who came out as gay at eighteen.*I learned at a very young age there is nothing dainty or fragile about girls and as for handling them carefully, lol.*
> My school believed in everyone trying every subject so the boxing lessons were great fun,nothing like having some girl trying to punch you,you not wanting to hit her back, while your teammates are screaming at you to knock her out.Really builds character!
> It was great.


Oh, yeah, the female of the species is generally more viscous than most men think. I tried for years to explain this to a friend, who happens to live in Mass and teach at a technical high school, but he didn't believe me until he became a teacher. He noticed that the boys would talk smack, have a tussle, shake hands, and either become friends or ignore each other until graduation. The girls, on the other hand, wouldn't say too much, fight with intent to do great bodily harm, and then try to utterly ruin each other's lives until graduation.



Livvie said:


> I enjoy sex as much as a man does. I work with mostly women, I just counted 9, big age range (24 to early 60s) who I've chatted with enough over many years to know that they enjoy frequent sex with their husbands. My close personal friends definitely!! do (age very late 40s).
> 
> I think the men in sexually compromised relationships come on a forum to post. It's a self selected group.


I don't work (yet!) as I've been SAHM for many years, but I have had the same experiences. I guess birds of a feather flock together. I'm starting to think that if a man wants a woman with a healthy libido, he needs to ask the women in his life to introduce him to their single friends and family. Let his buddies, sisters, and cousins pre-screen for him.


----------



## MJJEAN

Ynot said:


> It also gives you some insight into their level of entitlement when they don't even offer. Most people do not want to be parasites, they will make at least make an offer to pay their share or at least the tip. When they don't I know right away that I have an entitled little princess on hand.


See, I wouldn't offer because it would seem rude to me. Like I was insinuating my date couldn't afford it or something.


----------



## Andy1001

Ynot said:


> It also gives you some insight into their level of entitlement when they don't even offer. Most people do not want to be parasites, they will make at least make an offer to pay their share or at least the tip. When they don't I know right away that I have an entitled little princess on hand.


This is a slight thread jack but you mentioning entitled princesses reminded me of a thread running on tam a while back about dates taking advantage.I got well hammered by some of the ladies on tam for this lol.
I was picking up this girl one night for a date and when I called to her house she wasn’t ready.While I was waiting for her she shouted downstairs that there were some dirty cups and plates in her sink and would I wash them.So I did wash them.
I threw them in her pool.
She didn’t notice until I was leaving the following morning.😜


----------



## Ynot

Notself said:


> Citation needed.
> 
> Seriously, this assertion is far from my and many men's lived experiences. It's like you're not even reading these forums.


My citation is my experience, post divorce. When I finally stop fearing women and started discovering the right women. I finally started asserting for my own needs and found there were plenty of women willing to be part of them. Suddenly a whole new world opened up. I have had multiples more sex post divorce that I ever did while married or before. I have had a greater variety of sex than I ever had when I was married or before, I have been with probably four times more women post divorce than pre-divorce despite my post divorce time being something around 1/5 of my sexually active life pre-divorce.

I read these forums, in fact I have posted about the same type of issues in my own marriage. The reality is that most sexless marriages are a symptom of something else. IOW the lack of sex is due to something else that is missing. People who stay in them tend to have limited thinking, believing in the myth of the One and refusing to understand that there are literally millions of other women (men for women or any combination there in) out there in the world who could satisfy your wants, needs and desires at any moment. Limited thinking is the root of nearly all marital issues. It keeps us mired in unsatisfying relationships, we feel we don't have options so we just come to accept where we are. 

Abundance thinking allows you to realize that you always have a choice. That same type of thinking allows to understand that so does your SO. So if you SO is important to you, you make the effort because you have made the choice to have them in your life. Most sexless marriages, lack abundance thinking. It sounds like you and many of the men you know also lack abundance thinking.


----------



## Ynot

MJJEAN said:


> See, I wouldn't offer because it would seem rude to me. Like I was insinuating my date couldn't afford it or something.


Not arguing just asking. Why would it seem rude for you to offer to leave a tip? There is no insinuation taking place.


----------



## MJJEAN

Ynot said:


> Not arguing just asking. Why would it seem rude for you to offer to leave a tip? There is no insinuation taking place.


You wouldn't think there wasn't any insinuation, but others might.


----------



## Ynot

MJJEAN said:


> You wouldn't think there wasn't any insinuation, but others might.


True. But if they thought something was being insinuated, I would suggest that they weren't for me or you for that matter. After years of being treated as a host who's only purpose on earth was to be a walking ATM, I find it quite refreshing to meet women, who are not only able, but also willing to pay their own way. The last thing I want is another dependent.


----------



## Wolf1974

Wolf1974 said:


> I don’t have expectations when it comes to dating Why would you assume I would





minimalME said:


> So you don't? Okay. I apologize.
> 
> Why would I assume you would? Because it's human.


Not really I say it’s foolish to put expectations on anything meeting a stranger for 30 minutes to an hour.

I have no clue how long you have been out of the dating game but I’m am in it. And I can tell you expectations in dating only lead to disappointment. I have gone on well over 100 “first dates/meetups” and Of those 99% were complete busts.

I wasn’t interested in them
They weren’t interested in me
We weren’t compatible 
They lied about something
And so the list goes

I learned early on that you set the limits on what it really is. You are just meeting someone for the first time to see if you both have chemistry. You generally know by the end of a coffee or a beer if you want to know more..

Expectations?? Nope. I am Just going to have a cold beer and maybe meet someone interesting and if not then I will go onto the next one and do the same thing. 


Edit:

Guess you did catch me a bit thinking about it and rereading my post. I do have any expectations. My expectation is most dates are not going to work out long term because history has shown me that most just don’t. So when I am meeting someone for the first time I am expecting that it’s probably not going to work out. Caught me there


----------



## ConanHub

I'm honestly amazed out how much effort people put into thinking about this and other issues.

I have just mostly lived in an organic, messy and very satisfying world where an issue like this was not even a thought.

It would seem to hamper a lot of fun to be had.

Women have scooped me up, taken me to concerts, been the one to pick me up for a date, etc.

I had my hand in organizing fun days and nights as well but I don't think any of us was worried about who pays, just are we having fun?

I did pay for my first date with Mrs. Conan. Cost me about $6.50 to win the pool table and maybe $10.00 for drinks.

Looking at her right now, over 26 years later as she pushes me into the shower so I can do my husbandly duty afterwards, I think it was a good investment.😉😁


----------



## Andy1001

ConanHub said:


> I'm honestly amazed out how much effort people put into thinking about this and other issues.
> 
> I have just mostly lived in an organic, messy and very satisfying world where an issue like this was not even a thought.
> 
> It would seem to hamper a lot of fun to be had.
> 
> Women have scooped me up, taken me to concerts, been the one to pick me up for a date, etc.
> 
> I had my hand in organizing fun days and nights as well but I don't think any of us was worried about who pays, just are we having fun?
> 
> I did pay for my first date with Mrs. Conan. Cost me about $6.50 to win the pool table and maybe $10.00 for drinks.
> 
> Looking at her right now, over 26 years later as she pushes me into the shower so I can do my husbandly duty afterwards, I think it was a good investment.😉😁


You’ll get thrown out of that gym!


----------



## 269370

Andy1001 said:


> You’re obviously not meeting the right women.I was a serial dater for years,I traveled all over the world and I never had a problem meeting women that had a good healthy libido.Unfortunately, it seems to me a lot of men want to meet innocent virgins who never touched a penis in their lives and then the men can’t understand why these girls don’t turn into raging nymphomaniacs overnight.
> 
> It doesn’t work that way my friend.
> 
> I don’t know anything about you obviously,so I’m not sure if you are in a sexless marriage or if you are single.Without getting too personal can I ask you these questions.
> 
> Are you good in bed,do you know how to please a woman and more to the point do you know how to please the woman you have,if you have one that is.
> 
> Are you clean,do you shower at least once a day?
> 
> Are you fit,do you dress well.Dont expect to attract any woman if you are not attractive yourself.I don’t mean that you have to be handsome but you have to make the most of what you have.



I don’t think there’s a problem with a woman’s libido before a family is established. Just before I got together with my wife (who had a healthy libido too) there was a girl who was acting like she was crazy hungry for sex with me all the time. She wasn’t the only one, there were a couple of other ones. I think she was faking it because she wanted me to like her, I’m not sure. She was a virgin (we both were). She was literally unzipping me at any given opportunity but I remember being adamant and not sleeping with her because I didn’t love her and I wanted her to lose her virginity to someone who would be able to reciprocate her love etc. Maybe I was too sentimental about those things because few weeks later she lost it to some idiot B list celebrity who sleeps with everyone...

Anyway, I still am not sure whether she really felt the urge for sex or she felt that she SHOULD feel that urge, because she thought that’s what guys liked. At that age (15-16), girls are way too young to know their bodies well enough to understand what’s going on.

I do think that the libido experiences a significant dip for a vast proportion of women after kids are born. There are many factors at play (hormonal and tiredness plus possible family tensions) but it definitely happens more often than not at that juncture.
I think you had a baby recently? Have you noticed any changes?
Things tend to pick up again after kids are older and the woman is in her 30s or 40s.
My wife’s libido came back after she stopped nursing our 3rd. The worst was between 2nd and 3rd for some reason.

It’s customary to buy a little present for the mother after she gives birth. But strangely, there isn’t a tradition for dads to get a present, in the form of a wrist bandage. 





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ConanHub

Andy1001 said:


> You’ll get thrown out of that gym!


Hey! No fair peaking?


----------



## Andy1001

inmyprime said:


> I don’t think there’s a problem with a woman’s libido before a family is established. Just before I got together with my wife (who had a healthy libido too) there was a girl who was acting like she was crazy hungry for sex with me all the time. She wasn’t the only one, there were a couple of other ones. I think she was faking it because she wanted me to like her, I’m not sure. She was a virgin (we both were). She was literally unzipping me at any given opportunity but I remember being adamant and not sleeping with her because I didn’t love her and I wanted her to lose her virginity to someone who would be able to reciprocate her love etc. Maybe I was too sentimental about those things because few weeks later she lost it to some idiot B list celebrity who sleeps with everyone...
> 
> Anyway, I still am not sure whether she really felt the urge for sex or she felt that she SHOULD feel that urge, because she thought that’s what guys liked. At that age (15-16), girls are way too young to know their bodies well enough to understand what’s going on.
> 
> I do think that the libido experiences a significant dip for a vast proportion of women after kids are born. There are many factors at play (hormonal and tiredness plus possible family tensions) but it definitely happens more often than not at that juncture.
> I think you had a baby recently? Have you noticed any changes?
> Things tend to pick up again after kids are older and the woman is in her 30s or 40s.
> My wife’s libido came back after she stopped nursing our 3rd. The worst was between 2nd and 3rd for some reason.
> 
> It’s customary to buy a little present for the mother after she gives birth. But strangely, there isn’t a tradition for dads to get a present, in the form of a wrist bandage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I can only speak for myself here and judging by what I read on tam and in new parenting guides this is not a usual situation.
When we were leaving the hospital when my daughter was born I had a list of questions a mile long for the doctor,my girlfriend had one.When could she resume swimming.The doctor told her she couldn’t swim in a public pool for a couple of weeks because of the chlorine and the danger of “leaking” would not be fair to other users,she just looked at me and laughed and said it’s not a problem.When we got home I emptied the pool,turned off the chlorine and refilled it,two days later she was swimming and we had sex the same day.
She is super fit,used to own a gym and now competes in triathlons as a hobby.We have sex EVERY day unless I’m out of the country and the last few times I went to Europe she came with me.We actually spent November in London because I took on a consultant role in a transport infrastructure revamp.She is very clear on what she wants in bed and she uses two euphemisms for sex.She asks me are we taking the scenic route or the direct route,it depends on how much time we have which “route” we take.We have never had sex when she hasn’t had at least one orgasm and that’s the “direct route”.
We are not married.


----------



## ConanHub

Notself said:


> Citation needed.
> 
> Seriously, this assertion is far from my and many men's lived experiences. It's like you're not even reading these forums.


Just the wrong mindset / outlook my friend.

Admittedly, my group of friends were probably virgins until sometime after highschool but I had a different outlook. I knew a lot of jocks, that I didn't hang with, getting attacked by women with regularity and I turned down hundreds of offers for dating with sex expressly and discreetly offered before meeting my wife and probably over a thousand since I started dating my wife and marrying her.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

chillymorn69 said:


> The ultimate **** test for many woman!
> 
> If he doesn't pay then shes ghosting him.


Pffft. I've ghosted for a lot less than that. :grin2:


----------



## 269370

Andy1001 said:


> I can only speak for myself here and judging by what I read on tam and in new parenting guides this is not a usual situation.
> 
> When we were leaving the hospital when my daughter was born I had a list of questions a mile long for the doctor,my girlfriend had one.When could she resume swimming.The doctor told her she couldn’t swim in a public pool for a couple of weeks because of the chlorine and the danger of “leaking” would not be fair to other users,she just looked at me and laughed and said it’s not a problem.When we got home I emptied the pool,turned off the chlorine and refilled it,two days later she was swimming and we had sex the same day.
> 
> She is super fit,used to own a gym and now competes in triathlons as a hobby.We have sex EVERY day unless I’m out of the country and the last few times I went to Europe she came with me.We actually spent November in London because I took on a consultant role in a transport infrastructure revamp.She is very clear on what she wants in bed and she uses two euphemisms for sex.She asks me are we taking the scenic route or the direct route,it depends on how much time we have which “route” we take.We have never had sex when she hasn’t had at least one orgasm and that’s the “direct route”.
> 
> We are not married.




Ha, I think you are very lucky! 
And she sounds like a superwoman.
Does she look after the baby herself or do you have a nanny? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## She'sStillGotIt

MJJEAN said:


> See, I wouldn't offer because it would seem rude to me. Like I was insinuating my date couldn't afford it or something.


I'm a bit older and was raised during a time men paid for dates so going dutch just wasn't even a thought back then.

Anyway, since I'd heard this is how dating is done now, I would make sure to offer to pay my share whenever I was out on dates. Out of probably a dozen different dates I went on back when I became single again 7 years ago, not *one* of them would let me pay or even leave the tip - they wouldn't even let me buy a round of drinks.

On one of those dates with one gentleman, I tried to get sneaky. After a nice dinner, we stopped at the local tavern for a drink or two, and when he went to the men's room, I gave the bartender my credit card and told her the drinks would be paid for by me, instead. At the end of the evening, she brought my card back to me and I asked her where my receipt was so I could sign it and she told me my date had discovered I'd given her my card and had insisted on paying and told her to bring my card back to me.

Another time, I was out with a very handsome and very traditional Italian man for dinner. When the bill came, I asked him what my share was and I swear, he looked like I'd just shot his mother in the public square - I kid you not. I was horrified at the stricken look on his face. He then proceeded to tell me that whenever I was with him, he would always pay - _always_. It wasn't even up for debate and he asked me to please *never *bring the subject up again when I was in his company. I swear, I felt like I was out with one of the guys from the Sopranos. LOL.

On another date with another handsome Italian lawyer, when the bill came, I asked what my share was and he just looked at me, chuckled, and thought I was kidding. I told him I wasn't kidding and he chuckled again and paid the bill.

Not once has anyone *ever *let me pay on a date.

That's just been my experience.


----------



## Ynot

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I'm a bit older and was raised during a time men paid for dates so going dutch just wasn't even a thought back then.
> 
> Anyway, since I'd heard this is how dating is done now, I would make sure to offer to pay my share whenever I was out on dates. Out of probably a dozen different dates I went on back when I became single again 7 years ago, not *one* of them would let me pay or even leave the tip - they wouldn't even let me buy a round of drinks.
> 
> On one of those dates with one gentleman, I tried to get sneaky. After a nice dinner, we stopped at the local tavern for a drink or two, and when he went to the men's room, I gave the bartender my credit card and told her the drinks would be paid for by me, instead. At the end of the evening, she brought my card back to me and I asked her where my receipt was so I could sign it and she told me my date had discovered I'd given her my card and had insisted on paying and told her to bring my card back to me.
> 
> Another time, I was out with a very handsome and very traditional Italian man for dinner. When the bill came, I asked him what my share was and I swear, he looked like I'd just shot his mother in the public square - I kid you not. I was horrified at the stricken look on his face. He then proceeded to tell me that whenever I was with him, he would always pay - _always_. It wasn't even up for debate and he asked me to please *never *bring the subject up again when I was in his company. I swear, I felt like I was out with one of the guys from the Sopranos. LOL.
> 
> On another date with another handsome Italian lawyer, when the bill came, I asked what my share was and he just looked at me, chuckled, and thought I was kidding. I told him I wasn't kidding and he chuckled again and paid the bill.
> 
> Not once has anyone *ever *let me pay on a date.
> 
> That's just been my experience.


But I am sure that each and everyone of those men thought better of you for offering!


----------



## Andy1001

inmyprime said:


> Ha, I think you are very lucky!
> And she sounds like a superwoman.
> Does she look after the baby herself or do you have a nanny?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We had a nanny in London but we look after her ourselves at home.


----------



## chillymorn69

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I'm a bit older and was raised during a time men paid for dates so going dutch just wasn't even a thought back then.
> 
> Anyway, since I'd heard this is how dating is done now, I would make sure to offer to pay my share whenever I was out on dates. Out of probably a dozen different dates I went on back when I became single again 7 years ago, not *one* of them would let me pay or even leave the tip - they wouldn't even let me buy a round of drinks.
> 
> On one of those dates with one gentleman, I tried to get sneaky. After a nice dinner, we stopped at the local tavern for a drink or two, and when he went to the men's room, I gave the bartender my credit card and told her the drinks would be paid for by me, instead. At the end of the evening, she brought my card back to me and I asked her where my receipt was so I could sign it and she told me my date had discovered I'd given her my card and had insisted on paying and told her to bring my card back to me.
> 
> Another time, I was out with a very handsome and very traditional Italian man for dinner. When the bill came, I asked him what my share was and I swear, he looked like I'd just shot his mother in the public square - I kid you not. I was horrified at the stricken look on his face. He then proceeded to tell me that whenever I was with him, he would always pay - _always_. It wasn't even up for debate and he asked me to please *never *bring the subject up again when I was in his company. I swear, I felt like I was out with one of the guys from the Sopranos. LOL.
> 
> On another date with another handsome Italian lawyer, when the bill came, I asked what my share was and he just looked at me, chuckled, and thought I was kidding. I told him I wasn't kidding and he chuckled again and paid the bill.
> 
> Not once has anyone *ever *let me pay on a date.
> 
> That's just been my experience.


Thats the only way to roll in my opinion!

If you can't afford to pay you shouldn't ask her out!


----------



## Ynot

chillymorn69 said:


> Thats the only way to roll in my opinion!
> 
> If you can't afford to pay you shouldn't ask her out!


But who says that her offering to pay something means he can't afford to ask her out? That makes no sense. As I said, if I ask, I pay. If she offers to pay anything I think even better of her. Even if I end up paying it all.
It has nothing to do with whether I can afford it or not. It has to do with finding out that she is independent enough to pay her own way.
WTH, we are adults now. Most people have some means of supporting themselves and their life style. If they don't I am not interested.


----------



## Andy1001

Ynot said:


> But who says that her offering to pay something means he can't afford to ask her out? That makes no sense. As I said, if I ask, I pay. If she offers to pay anything I think even better of her. Even if I end up paying it all.
> It has nothing to do with whether I can afford it or not. It has to do with finding out that she is independent enough to pay her own way.
> WTH, we are adults now. Most people have some means of supporting themselves and their life style. If they don't I am not interested.


You have been very clear in this and other threads about what you expect from a woman you date and I am not trying in any way to disagree with you.
There is a double standard though and it really annoys most women.A lot of men (I’m not including you in this situation) will say the same thing that you say but if by chance they meet a stunningly attractive woman and she agrees to go out with them they will never expect,let alone ask her to contribute to the cost of the date.This is inherently unfair to the other women they date and it drives women mad.
There is a poster on tam,next time around, who talks about when she started dating her now husband how his ex would always comment on how much he spent on her while they were dating.Next time around was expected to pay half of everything.This is the double standard that women hate.


----------



## chillymorn69

Ynot said:


> But who says that her offering to pay something means he can't afford to ask her out? That makes no sense. As I said, if I ask, I pay. If she offers to pay anything I think even better of her. Even if I end up paying it all.
> It has nothing to do with whether I can afford it or not. It has to do with finding out that she is independent enough to pay her own way.
> WTH, we are adults now. Most people have some means of supporting themselves and their life style. If they don't I am not interested.


Cool ,

Did you read what wrote? I happen to be of the opinion that I pay, yours can differ! 

If a woman offeres to pay that is cool and appreciated.. But I would not let her espically if I asked her out!


----------



## Andy1001

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I'm a bit older and was raised during a time men paid for dates so going dutch just wasn't even a thought back then.
> 
> Anyway, since I'd heard this is how dating is done now, I would make sure to offer to pay my share whenever I was out on dates. Out of probably a dozen different dates I went on back when I became single again 7 years ago, not *one* of them would let me pay or even leave the tip - they wouldn't even let me buy a round of drinks.
> 
> On one of those dates with one gentleman, I tried to get sneaky. After a nice dinner, we stopped at the local tavern for a drink or two, and when he went to the men's room, I gave the bartender my credit card and told her the drinks would be paid for by me, instead. At the end of the evening, she brought my card back to me and I asked her where my receipt was so I could sign it and she told me my date had discovered I'd given her my card and had insisted on paying and told her to bring my card back to me.
> 
> Another time, I was out with a very handsome and very traditional Italian man for dinner. When the bill came, I asked him what my share was and I swear, he looked like I'd just shot his mother in the public square - I kid you not. I was horrified at the stricken look on his face. He then proceeded to tell me that whenever I was with him, he would always pay - _always_. It wasn't even up for debate and he asked me to please *never *bring the subject up again when I was in his company. I swear, I felt like I was out with one of the guys from the Sopranos. LOL.
> 
> On another date with another handsome Italian lawyer, when the bill came, I asked what my share was and he just looked at me, chuckled, and thought I was kidding. I told him I wasn't kidding and he chuckled again and paid the bill.
> 
> Not once has anyone *ever *let me pay on a date.
> 
> That's just been my experience.


Getting shot in the public square?
That must be one of the most painful places to be shot.😈


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## Rick Blaine

If my daughter dated a guy who didn't pay for the first date I'd tell her to drop the bum.


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## username77

With the way dating is now, there's a good chance the girl you're taking out is dating or screwing 4 or 5 other guys. It's this "hookup culture", it doesn't make sense to me for a man to offer to pay for expensive dinners and act chivalrous like it's 1922 when he's not really getting her attention or best effort.

If I were single I wouldn't pay for more than a cup of coffee or a drink or two until we were actually dating and not ****ing other people on the side.


----------



## Livvie

Rick Blaine said:


> If my daughter dated a guy who didn't pay for the first date I'd tell her to drop the bum.


Does this sentiment hold true for older women? In their 40s --or just young women?


----------



## MJJEAN

Ynot said:


> True. But if they thought something was being insinuated, I would suggest that they weren't for me or you for that matter. After years of being treated as a host who's only purpose on earth was to be a walking ATM, I find it quite refreshing to meet women, who are not only able, but also willing to pay their own way. The last thing I want is another dependent.


I grew up in the Midwest and in a traditional area. If a man is interested in a woman romantically, he pays the tab. If he wants to go Dutch, it's because he's interested in friendship or a FWB situation. Remember, though, I live in a lower-middle class area where it's still common for married women to be SAHM or only work part-time to supplement the family income. Whether or not a man shows he's willing and able to provide for a family still matters. 


Really, though, it is a matter of compatibility. If a woman is looking for a traditional marriage where she is SAHM and the fellow she's dating expects her to contribute financially, maybe they aren't a good match due to incompatible life goals.



inmyprime said:


> Anyway, I still am not sure whether she really felt the urge for sex or she felt that she SHOULD feel that urge, because she thought that’s what guys liked. At that age (15-16), girls are way too young to know their bodies well enough to understand what’s going on.
> 
> I think you had a baby recently? Have you noticed any changes?
> Things tend to pick up again after kids are older and the woman is in her 30s or 40s.
> My wife’s libido came back after she stopped nursing our 3rd. The worst was between 2nd and 3rd for some reason.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Trust me, young women know exactly what's going on. I was a walking, talking, hormone at about 13/14. My favorite thing to do was make out. By 15, making out wasn't enough anymore and I NEEDED sex. Because, ya know, when you're young, dumb, and full of *ahem*, it does feel like a NEED. At 15, my virginity wasn't some precious thing I wanted to give to someone I loved, it was an annoyance that I was happy to be rid of.

Libido doesn't tank for all women after birth. My kids were born when I was 18, 23, and 26. My libido never tanked after the kids were born. I was dying to resume sex and never could wait the whole 6 weeks doctors recommend. The longest post birth I lasted was 12 days and that was because I had a c-section with that baby and was waiting until I could take out my stitches. (Yes, I take out my own stitches and staples and my husbands and kids, too. I never saw the point of going in for something so simple.)

I don't know your wife, but I could take a guess as to why things got "worse" between the 2nd and 3rd kid. When the first kid comes along it is an adjustment, but it's only one kid. When the 2nd comes along, you're more experienced, but you have more to balance. It can be draining to meet the needs of two different small humans, yourself, your marriage, and maintain a decently cleaned and organized home. By the time the 3rd comes along, you're an old pro, and the balancing act is much easier. At least, that was my experience.




She'sStillGotIt said:


> Pffft. I've ghosted for a lot less than that. :grin2:


Me, too. :laugh:



She'sStillGotIt said:


> I'm a bit older and was raised during a time men paid for dates so going dutch just wasn't even a thought back then.
> 
> Another time, I was out with a very handsome and very traditional Italian man for dinner. When the bill came, I asked him what my share was and I swear, he looked like I'd just shot his mother in the public square - I kid you not. I was horrified at the stricken look on his face. He then proceeded to tell me that whenever I was with him, he would always pay - _always_. It wasn't even up for debate and he asked me to please *never *bring the subject up again when I was in his company. I swear, I felt like I was out with one of the guys from the Sopranos. LOL.
> 
> On another date with another handsome Italian lawyer, when the bill came, I asked what my share was and he just looked at me, chuckled, and thought I was kidding. I told him I wasn't kidding and he chuckled again and paid the bill.


These reactions are the common reactions around here. The other common reaction, before he pays the bill anyway, is shock and some variation of "What kind of so-and-so's have you been out with that you think you should pay?!?!?!"





Andy1001 said:


> You have been very clear in this and other threads about what you expect from a woman you date and I am not trying in any way to disagree with you.
> There is a double standard though and it really annoys most women.A lot of men (I’m not including you in this situation) will say the same thing that you say but if by chance they meet a stunningly attractive woman and she agrees to go out with them they will never expect,let alone ask her to contribute to the cost of the date.This is inherently unfair to the other women they date and it drives women mad.
> There is a poster on tam,next time around, who talks about when she started dating her now husband how his ex would always comment on how much he spent on her while they were dating.Next time around was expected to pay half of everything.This is the double standard that women hate.


Oh, yeah, this! Let me find out a man picked up the tab for his ex(s), but not for me. Insta-ghost. I am no one's second fiddle. Value me at least as much as, if not more, than your ex or gtfo and stop wasting my time. The exception being a FWB. That's different.


----------



## minimalME

Andy1001 said:


> There is a double standard though and it really annoys most women.A lot of men (I’m not including you in this situation) will say the same thing that you say but if by chance they meet a stunningly attractive woman and she agrees to go out with them they will never expect,let alone ask her to contribute to the cost of the date.This is inherently unfair to the other women they date and it drives women mad.


But this is kind of human, don't you think? And it's not something that would offend me, because I know I'm guilty. (Come to think of it, it's another reason why I don't want to hear about past relationships.)

If a man or woman comes across a person they find captivating, any and all 'rules' are subject to fly out the window. Not paying for dates, waiting for sex, getting married again, etc.

George Clooney comes to mind - emphatically stating over and over for years that he'd never get married again. 

We all want to believe that we're getting the best of/from someone.


----------



## 269370

minimalME said:


> If a man or woman comes across a person they find captivating, any and all 'rules' are subject to fly out the window. Not paying for dates, waiting for sex, getting married again, etc.
> 
> .



Or have anal....finally. Which is usually a no no in a marriage...
How much should the dinner cost for that I wonder? 
Why does George Clooney always come up? Isn’t he old and wrinkly by now? Or is he the standard by which to judge other middle aged (old) men?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## minimalME

inmyprime said:


> Or have anal....finally. Which is usually a no no in a marriage...
> How much should the dinner cost for that I wonder?
> Why does George Clooney always come up? Isn’t he old and wrinkly by now? Or is he the standard by which to judge other middle aged (old) men?




Feel free to offer me different guys for my future examples. 

And no anal. Ever. I'm too old to be misusing vital parts of my body. I'm just thankful they work the way they're supposed to.


----------



## Rick Blaine

Livvie said:


> Does this sentiment hold true for older women? In their 40s --or just young women?


All ages. I would INSIST on paying for the first date. The proof is in the pudding: I nearly went broke when I was online dating (my late 40s). Well, I exagerate, but it got expensive. Would not have done it any other way.


----------



## minimalME

Rick Blaine said:


> All ages. I would INSIST on paying for the first date. *The proof is in the pudding*: I nearly went broke when I was online dating (my late 40s). Well, I exagerate, but it got expensive. Would not have done it any other way.


Yes.

I was reading a different thread yesterday, (Engaged but struggling. What do you think I should do?) and it reminded me of this one...



WorkingOnMe said:


> Let this be a lesson to you. *Women do not respect or desire a man who can't pull his weight financially, even if there are extenuating circumstances. She expects you to be a man and, frankly, you've fallen short.* Having her support you was a mistake of the highest order.





Thor said:


> This is very true, but don't take it the wrong way. As I get older (late 50's now),* I more strongly believe there are inherent differences in the brains of men and women. We are wired differently. Women by design are wired to seek successful men. It just is*. No different than men being wired to be attracted to young healthy women who look like they would be able to have strong healthy offspring.
> 
> *When a man becomes financially dependent on a woman, it can trip those eons old circuits programmed into her brain to see you as an unworthy mate. You can't support and defend her and the offspring if you are not capable of providing for her. Her ancient brain wants a strong male who successfully hunts for food.*
> 
> *Modern society likes to say otherwise, that it is ok for women to take on the breadwinner role in a family, and the man can be the house-husband who raises the kids. It doesn't seem to work out well very often, though.*
> 
> *Your relationship fell prey to our preprogrammed instincts when you became dependent on her.* Women who detach don't seem to come back. At least not very often. It sounds like she has moved on emotionally.
> 
> None of this makes you or her wrong. But it is reality, and I think she's just looking for the next relationship before she ditches this one officially.


Very interesting. And both comments by men. 

The dynamics of what's acceptable in a relationship start way before marriage, and both Thor and WorkingOnMe have accurately described the exchange I prefer. 

Relational equality is a myth.

Takeaway - don't start what you don't want to continue.


----------



## Andy1001

inmyprime said:


> Or have anal....finally. Which is usually a no no in a marriage...
> How much should the dinner cost for that I wonder?
> Why does George Clooney always come up? Isn’t he old and wrinkly by now? Or is he the standard by which to judge other middle aged (old) men?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Believe me I’m far better looking than George Clooney ever was and I always tried to pay for every date.>


----------



## Ynot

MJJEAN said:


> I grew up in the Midwest and in a traditional area. If a man is interested in a woman romantically, he pays the tab. If he wants to go Dutch, it's because he's interested in friendship or a FWB situation. Remember, though, I live in a lower-middle class area where it's still common for married women to be SAHM or only work part-time to supplement the family income. Whether or not a man shows he's willing and able to provide for a family still matters.
> 
> 
> Really, though, it is a matter of compatibility. If a woman is looking for a traditional marriage where she is SAHM and the fellow she's dating expects her to contribute financially, maybe they aren't a good match due to incompatible life goals.


Absolutely, and just as one size doesn't fit all when to comes sex or gender, the same holds true for age. I am not interested in marrying anyone, children and most assuredly a SAHM. I am in my mid 50's. I would hope anyone I meet is financially independent and able to pay their own way. The simple gesture of offering to do so, places one much higher on my list than someone who doesn't offer. 
As I said, if I ask, I pay. If they offer I might suggest they can get the tip. If they insist on paying their share, I refer them to my first two statements on the issue.


----------



## Andy1001

MJJEAN said:


> Oh, yeah, this! Let me find out a man picked up the tab for his ex(s), but not for me. Insta-ghost. I am no one's second fiddle. Value me at least as much as, if not more, than your ex or gtfo and stop wasting my time. The exception being a FWB. That's different.


I think it would take a brave man to make you feel like a second fiddle.:2gunsfiring_v1:
The fwb situation and your attitude to it strikes me as quite....interesting,and the way you look on it as almost a business transaction kind of intrigues me.I had some girlfriends that I would call up whenever I was in their city,I traveled an awful lot of the time and it was great to have someone to have dinner or lunch with and I always paid.I’m not sure whether I would call them casual girlfriends, fwb’s or ****buddies but the end result was the same.


----------



## 269370

minimalME said:


> Feel free to offer me different guys for my future examples.
> 
> 
> 
> And no anal. Ever. I'm too old to be misusing vital parts of my body. I'm just thankful they work the way they're supposed to.



Anal is a little overrated...though I still can’t help poking around in places I’m not supposed to, when my wife isn’t watching her back, so to speak. I think it’s in my jeans.
I mean genes. Can’t control the urges for forbidden  fruits.
Yes I’m still working on that whatsapp group for minimalME to assemble guys who don’t jump the ladies’ leg on the 3rd date. The 4th one however...
Maybe if you give me a rough ETA or timeline, I could spin it better 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Andy1001

inmyprime said:


> Anal is a little overrated...though I still can’t help poking around in places I’m not supposed to, when my wife isn’t watching her back, so to speak. I think it’s in my jeans.
> I mean genes. Can’t control the urges for forbidden  fruits.
> Yes I’m still working on that whatsapp group for minimalME to assemble guys who don’t jump the ladies’ leg on the 3rd date. The 4th one however...
> Maybe if you give me a rough ETA or timeline, I could spin it better
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I met a beautiful girl at a party one New Year’s Eve and we spent the evening chatting.When she was leaving I asked her did she want to go out to dinner with me,she said sure but remember this,I’m not going to have sex with you for at least six months.I said that’s fine,I’ll call you sometime in July.


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## minimalME

inmyprime said:


> Yes I’m still working on that whatsapp group for minimalME to assemble guys who don’t jump the ladies’ leg on the 3rd date. The 4th one however...
> Maybe if you give me a rough ETA or timeline, I could spin it better


I'm not actively seeking a relationship at the moment, but if Mr. Wonderful miraculously pops up, I'll let you know.


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## EllisRedding

Honestly never understood the whole "3rd date" rule floated around. If you are solely looking to get laid it makes sense, why invest a lot of time if it ain't gonna happen right away. At least this is just me, but if I was actually looking for a relationship, I can't imagine imposing such a short deadline.


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## samyeagar

MJJEAN said:


> Oh, yeah, this! Let me find out a man picked up the tab for his ex(s), but not for me. Insta-ghost. I am no one's second fiddle. Value me at least as much as, if not more, than your ex or gtfo and stop wasting my time. The exception being a FWB. That's different.


But you did it for her! I'm sure all of the "but the past is the past", "people change", "it's none of your business" people love hearing this


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## toblerone

EllisRedding said:


> Honestly never understood the whole "3rd date" rule floated around. If you are solely looking to get laid it makes sense, why invest a lot of time if it ain't gonna happen right away. At least this is just me, but if I was actually looking for a relationship, I can't imagine imposing such a short deadline.


I think people get a good impression of the possibility of where things might be headed. Sometimes you hit it off in every way, sometimes there's that palpable sexual tension in the air that the two of you are coy about, sometimes it's just someone interesting to hang out with.

So, yea, no real rules on when the sex should happen, but it should happen soon enough that there's that level of 'investment' into the relationship that only sex provides- for lack of a better term.


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## alte Dame

'Still'?

I had my first date with my H in 1979. We split the bill then and for all the days after. Why would anyone just assume that a man must pay? I never did. Truly never. 

For those of you who are confused about this, I say that you pick a side and stick with it.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Lets think more practically about this. Which gender is typically more focused on impressing their partners during the initial courting stages? Well for humans that would be men. You can look all across the animal kingdom, there is pretty much always one gender that is the one trying to prove they are worthy of their opposite sex partner's affection and sex. Whatever dance, or display of strength, or display of overall worthiness is done by one sex or the other to attract their mate is done. The other sex parter either finds them worthy, or they don't then seek to find someone else worthy. The one shut down goes and does his/her dance or display for other male/females. 

So with that in mind, I don't really have any issue with men paying. That is sort of our dance. Our display of strength, power, our ability to provide and so on and so forth. Even if paying doesn't do anything for that particular woman you are courting, the onus is still on the man to prove himself some way some how to that woman. This has nothing to do with patriarchy, its just how it is for humans. Men do the dance. Women either find you worthy or not. Fair or not to whomever doesn't really matter. Life doesn't care about fair, it is designed to sustain itself by the best means possible for each species.


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## Ynot

EllisRedding said:


> Honestly never understood the whole "3rd date" rule floated around. If you are solely looking to get laid it makes sense, why invest a lot of time if it ain't gonna happen right away. At least this is just me, but if I was actually looking for a relationship, I can't imagine imposing such a short deadline.


Yeah, but I am not sure that where it came from. Some of us would rather just no sooner rather than later. We may have come from sexless marriages or been married to someone we weren't compatible with. Better to express your wants and needs sooner than to play the game of "coyness" and "respectable" only to find out later.
FTR, I am not a third date kind of guy. I don't like firm schedules either way, it happens when it happens. OTOH though I also don't like the whole "hurry up and wait" attitude that some people take. "I need a commitment, before anything happens, but I can assure you that...". 
Either you are compatible or you are not. Perhaps you are one of the hurry up and wait crowd. If that is who the other person is as well, great! You are compatible. Or if you would rather find out sooner, rather than later and the person you are dating is into that as well, great! You are compatible. If one of you feels differently then it just means you are not compatible. No wrong, no right, just different. But again, I would rather have that answer, whatever it is, sooner rather than later.
But what gets me is the shaming that goes on when others don't adhere to whatever your standards are. It happens here and it happens elsewhere.


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## Phil Anders

I subscribe to the "date planner pays" model. Even with friends I hate splitting bills; I'd rather alternate treating. And I accept that usually I'm the one to plan the first date, and therefore also pay for it. That much aligns with tradition.

But I don't want to be in the position of planning every subsequent date, and becoming the _de facto_ ATM. I'm happy to lead, but if a woman doesn't have enough independence, passion and agency to be planning her own list of shared activities pretty quickly, I'm not going to remain interested. 

I'm not a fan of arbitrary sex deadlines or future-of-the-relationship agendas running far out in advance of getting to know a person, either. I don't want to date a woman who's consciously and transparently interviewing me to fill a hole in her life (LTR mate, provider, insta-stepdad, whatever), any more than she probably wants me to treat her superficially as a mere potential lay. 

There's grace in setting aside this focus on outcomes and just experiencing another person in the moment, even if you do have important defined goals. There's time to evaluate all that dealbreaker stuff later; doing it concurrently makes things strained and awkward, with an impersonal, cart-before-the-horse feel.

And I want sex to happen naturally, not be forced into happening early or withheld at one party's expense subject to some preconceived timeframe. If someone I'm dating is so wedded to her list of rules and ideals that she can't respond and adapt in the moment to a real person that sometimes surprises her and perhaps reorders or upends a few of her priorities, then I don't see a lot of hope in maintaining mutual attraction.


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## Todd Haberdasher

Setting "arbitrary timetables for sex" is just good practice for when you're married.


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## NobodySpecial

A guy "should" do whatever suits him. As should a woman. Then they are more likely to meet like minded people.


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## Holdingontoit

NobodySpecial said:


> A guy "should" do whatever suits him. As should a woman. Then they are more likely to meet like minded people.


And be honest. If you are a woman who expects the guy to pay, "next" him if he doesn't. Don't resent him but give him another chance. Be true to who you are.


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## NobodySpecial

Holdingontoit said:


> And be honest. If you are a woman who expects the guy to pay, "next" him if he doesn't. Don't resent him but give him another chance. Be true to who you are.


I wish everyone would say what they mean and next the people (specifically gender neutral) who are not compatible. Everything would be so much easier!


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## Real talk

I go. Into dating with the idea that we'd take turns paying.

I have too much self worth to expect myself to take all of the financial risk with women I don't even know.


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## purplesunsets

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I'm a bit older and was raised during a time men paid for dates so going dutch just wasn't even a thought back then.
> 
> Anyway, since I'd heard this is how dating is done now, I would make sure to offer to pay my share whenever I was out on dates. Out of probably a dozen different dates I went on back when I became single again 7 years ago, not *one* of them would let me pay or even leave the tip - they wouldn't even let me buy a round of drinks.
> 
> On one of those dates with one gentleman, I tried to get sneaky. After a nice dinner, we stopped at the local tavern for a drink or two, and when he went to the men's room, I gave the bartender my credit card and told her the drinks would be paid for by me, instead. At the end of the evening, she brought my card back to me and I asked her where my receipt was so I could sign it and she told me my date had discovered I'd given her my card and had insisted on paying and told her to bring my card back to me.
> 
> Another time, I was out with a very handsome and very traditional Italian man for dinner. When the bill came, I asked him what my share was and I swear, he looked like I'd just shot his mother in the public square - I kid you not. I was horrified at the stricken look on his face. He then proceeded to tell me that whenever I was with him, he would always pay - _always_. It wasn't even up for debate and he asked me to please *never *bring the subject up again when I was in his company. I swear, I felt like I was out with one of the guys from the Sopranos. LOL.
> 
> On another date with another handsome Italian lawyer, when the bill came, I asked what my share was and he just looked at me, chuckled, and thought I was kidding. I told him I wasn't kidding and he chuckled again and paid the bill.
> 
> Not once has anyone *ever *let me pay on a date.
> 
> That's just been my experience.


Chivalry is not dead! I'm a feminist...a bad feminist I guess because I love chivalry . These stories made me smile. It sounds like you've been treated well in your dating life!!


----------



## salparadise

TheDudeLebowski said:


> ...the onus is still on the man to prove himself some way some how to that woman. *This has nothing to do with patriarchy*, its just how it is for humans. Men do the dance. Women either find you worthy or not. Fair or not to whomever doesn't really matter.


Sure it does! This one of a few last vestiges of the old patriarchal model wherein men held all the power and money, and a women's only asset was beauty––which equates to suitability for delivering a man's genes into future generations. Under this system a man's wife was property, and not much different from his livestock. Her value and duty was breeding. Inability to bear offspring (esp. male) would result in loss of perceived value and abandonment... or in the case of a powerful, ruthless man such as Henry the VIII, beheaded (adultery was the pretext, and likely false). Ann Boleyn's death was in 1536, slightly less than 500 years ago, but social change can be slow and erratic. This patriarchal system continued through the Victorian era to the beginning of the 20th century. Women finally won the right to vote (U.S.) in 1920.

I find it curious how people (of both genders) remain in denial as to the origin of such customs, and how it symbolically diminishes women's autonomy and equality today. For women it seems as though they're willing to overlook the larger implication when they benefit from the old system, while adamantly advocating for a new paradigm of equality, autonomy, and inherent value unrelated to the agenda of a more powerful opposite sex. For men, it just seems like they're trying to maintain a patriarchal system, and enjoy the feeling of superiority as they puff up their chests and open their wallets. It all seems rather comical. 

I'll spare you the extended argument about how closely related all of this is to tossing money on the bed... which Karen McDougal claims "the Donald" did to her. What kind of man feels good about a woman having sex with him because of his ability to toss a few bills on the bed, or on the table?


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## Real talk

salparadise said:


> I find it curious how people (of both genders) remain in denial as to the origin of such customs, and how it symbolically diminishes women's autonomy and equality today.


Modern society has done a number on the majority of men in western society. It's mostly the older generation who were born during a time where men were forced to be sacrificial for a "greater good" like war and their families. These are the men who have no standards other than to live up to those of women. But there are a number of low testosterone millennials who are so female identified that they're okay with women shunning traditional feminine ideologies while pushing financial "masculinity". 

To be honest the type of men you quoted are a bigger threat than the women who take advantage of them.


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## TJW

salparadise said:


> Under this system a man's wife was property, and not much different from his livestock. Her value and duty was breeding.


And, his value and duty is security provision, at the sacrifice of significance for his own sake.



salparadise said:


> I find it curious how people (of both genders) remain in denial as to the origin of such customs, and how it symbolically diminishes women's autonomy and equality today.


And, how the man's self-worth has always been diminished by it.



salparadise said:


> What kind of man feels good about a woman having sex with him because of his ability to toss a few bills on the bed, or on the table?


And, conversely, how good can it really make _*A* (sex object)_ woman feel to understand this is what she "must" do in order to "get" _*A* (money object)_ man.....



salparadise said:


> "the Donald"


The archetypal examples.....*the* Donald, vs *the* proletariat.....

How awful is it, that we live in a world in which the having of, and the not having of, money causes such hatred and bigotry as to name a person "the" ? .... and the cynicism which relegates the named to accept the title, because it is the only "place" where he can find value?

But, I probably shouldn't knock it.... professional wrestling has been taking it to the bank for decades....


----------



## TJW

Real talk said:


> I go. Into dating with the idea that we'd take turns paying.


Not. I know, damned well, that if I don't pay, I don't play.... I got the "beta" curse....



Real talk said:


> I have too much self worth to expect myself to take all of the financial risk with women I don't even know.


Also, not. I didn't get the "alpha" gene in the lottery. Therefore, there is no basis upon which I can feel "worth".


----------



## salparadise

I went out with a lovely woman last night for the first time. We had dinner and drinks and good conversation. When the check came and I pulled out my card, she pulled out her's too and said, "I'd like to split this." No hesitation or reservation, no slow reach, no bull****. This was an inexpensive place, so actual cost wasn't an issue, it's symbolic. The world is changing folks... it takes time but it's happening. This woman is fifty-something, liberal, progressive, and highly educated. Just my type  I wish there was a way to reliably screen for true progressives.


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## minimalME

salparadise said:


> I wish there was a way to reliably screen for true progressives.


If that's the type of woman you'd prefer, and if you're dating online, emphasize the importance of equality on your profile. You could even be bold and say your ideal woman is a 'true progressive'.


----------



## salparadise

minimalME said:


> If that's the type of woman you'd prefer, and if you're dating online, emphasize the importance of equality on your profile. You could even be bold and say your ideal woman is a 'true progressive'.


I do have words to that effect, but not everyone gets it. I even poke fun at shining armor, white horses, and glass slippers. We had a good time telling stories and laughing about some of the profiles and people we've met online. I really like her but unfortunately the chemistry-attraction was not huge. Might have to go for a second date (if she's willing) and see if develops. This is a real dilemma... whether to try and be less picky, or to hold out for fireworks.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Andy1001 said:


> You have been very clear in this and other threads about what you expect from a woman you date and I am not trying in any way to disagree with you.
> There is a double standard though and it really annoys most women.A lot of men (I’m not including you in this situation) will say the same thing that you say but if by chance they meet a stunningly attractive woman and she agrees to go out with them they will never expect,let alone ask her to contribute to the cost of the date.This is inherently unfair to the other women they date and it drives women mad.
> There is a poster on tam,next time around, who talks about when she started dating her now husband how his ex would always comment on how much he spent on her while they were dating.Next time around was expected to pay half of everything.This is the double standard that women hate.


Glad you mention this dilemma, but to tidy it up......

1. It seems that while guys are adamant that women should pay their fair share / half / whatever, as soon as a guy encounters a woman who is "traditional" / from a traditional ethnic group / just palin adamant about not payiing, the guy caves in and pays but then hassles those who are malleable / amenable / what ever even when the guy claims "but that's the one that I care about the most."

Andy1001 is referring to what I have written about the first year of dating my now (second) husband. I discovered -- thanks to his messiness -- that he was very generous with someone whom he called "just a friend" and with words would try to reassure me that I was No. 1 for him.

It doesn't make sense to me .... to the point that I identified various ways in which men get women to indeirctly pay for a date. Could one of these tactics be one of yours:

1. I didn't make it to the cash machine. I think it's better to pay cash for this small charge. Could you get that please." OTOH, I did see texts to his friend in which he would reassure her that he would go to a cash machine before they meet up. I have also been on dates when the guy has all the payment methods figured out.

2. Unbundle activities of the evening so that their price /cost are presented in neat discreet invoices that can be parceled from one to another. 

Admittedly, that had happened to me before, but I was only able to identify it as a tactic when my future husband pulled it on me at Valentine's Day. we had already enjoyed a 3 figure dinner with wine and dessert ..... and yet he wanted to go to one more place that evening. He didn't even have a place in mind so we had to find one in the neighborhood where we had dinner. We order again a glass of wine each and he tried to shame me into paying for it. Honestly, I can't remember whether I did or not. and even though, we had already agreed to go back to his place (we were that far in the relationship), he didn't want to hail a taxi to get there. He was living on the edge of central London at that time and there were lots of taxis around.

I'm going to the gym soon, so I'll continue this later on today.


----------



## NextTimeAround

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I'm a bit older and was raised during a time men paid for dates so going dutch just wasn't even a thought back then.
> 
> Anyway, since I'd heard this is how dating is done now, I would make sure to offer to pay my share whenever I was out on dates. Out of probably a dozen different dates I went on back when I became single again 7 years ago, not *one* of them would let me pay or even leave the tip - they wouldn't even let me buy a round of drinks.
> 
> On one of those dates with one gentleman, I tried to get sneaky. After a nice dinner, we stopped at the local tavern for a drink or two, and when he went to the men's room, I gave the bartender my credit card and told her the drinks would be paid for by me, instead. At the end of the evening, she brought my card back to me and I asked her where my receipt was so I could sign it and she told me my date had discovered I'd given her my card and had insisted on paying and told her to bring my card back to me.
> 
> Another time, I was out with a very handsome and very traditional Italian man for dinner. When the bill came, I asked him what my share was and I swear, he looked like I'd just shot his mother in the public square - I kid you not. I was horrified at the stricken look on his face. He then proceeded to tell me that whenever I was with him, he would always pay - _always_. It wasn't even up for debate and he asked me to please *never *bring the subject up again when I was in his company. I swear, I felt like I was out with one of the guys from the Sopranos. LOL.
> 
> On another date with another handsome Italian lawyer, when the bill came, I asked what my share was and he just looked at me, chuckled, and thought I was kidding. I told him I wasn't kidding and he chuckled again and paid the bill.
> 
> *Not once has anyone ever let me pay on a date.*
> 
> That's just been my experience.


Where do you find these men? 

Even guys who did not hassle me to contribute still allowed me to pay whenever I offered.


----------



## NextTimeAround

MJJEAN said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by Andy1001 View Post
> You have been very clear in this and other threads about what you expect from a woman you date and I am not trying in any way to disagree with you.
> There is a double standard though and it really annoys most women.A lot of men (I’m not including you in this situation) will say the same thing that you say but if by chance they meet a stunningly attractive woman and she agrees to go out with them they will never expect,let alone ask her to contribute to the cost of the date.This is inherently unfair to the other women they date and it drives women mad.
> There is a poster on tam,next time around, who talks about when she started dating her now husband how his ex would always comment on how much he spent on her while they were dating.Next time around was expected to pay half of everything.This is the double standard that women hate.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, yeah, this! Let me find out a man picked up the tab for his ex(s), but not for me. Insta-ghost. I am no one's second fiddle. Value me at least as much as, if not more, than your ex or gtfo and stop wasting my time. The exception being a FWB. That's different.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, yeah, this! Let me find out a man picked up the tab for his ex(s), but not for me. Insta-ghost. I am no one's second fiddle. Value me at least as much as, if not more, than your ex or gtfo and stop wasting my time. The exception being a FWB. That's different.
Click to expand...


Thank you , finally another woman agrees with me.


----------



## minimalME

Real talk said:


> To be honest the type of men you quoted are a bigger threat than the women who take advantage of them.


So, I'm just trying to understand your thinking on this.

If you ask a woman out, do you consider yourself taken advantage of if she doesn't offer to pay half?


----------



## Real talk

NextTimeAround said:


> Where do you find these men?
> 
> Even guys who did not hassle me to contribute still allowed me to pay whenever I offered.


Why is it adamant that you find a man who refuses to ever pet you pay? Is it that you can't afford to feed yourself or come out a few dollars every once in a while?


----------



## NextTimeAround

> George Clooney comes to mind - emphatically stating over and over for years that he'd never get married again.


Wasn't he public about it? At least women who date him can make an informed decision about whether and how much to date him as compared to keeping on with the life they had when they met him.

The problem with saying "yes" to paying for all or a part of date, is that you're doing it on faith. In that case, if you believe that you had a nice social life when you met this guy, then you should ask what bang do you get for your buck when you spend money when you're out with them.

I don't know about men, but when women spend time "getting to know" this new person who may or may not make a (positive) difference in their life, they do lose in other areas of their lives.

Before I had the talk with my (future) husband, I reminded myself that the money I was spending going out wiht him would go much farther than it would on a date with him ...... especially when I uncovered behavior that suggested that he would like to get back together again with her,......

And let's take this one step futher....... that socalled female friend or "ex gf" that your date / new beau / exclusive boyfriend feels the need to see from time to time ....... she may either have her onw boyfriend or at least has the freedom to date other men who are of varying generosity to her,......

the problem with all of this as exhibited in one outing with my (future) husband was when we went to an expat activity that repaired to a pub. My (future) husband .... in his somewhat early days .... asked me if I wanted another drink ...... as if he was ready to close his wallet, so I said no, no any more this evening. i then started talking to another guy who then offered me a drink so I said yes, When my future husband discovered that, he got mad and said "I thought you didn't want another drink." I can't remember if I said it, but my thoughts were "not another one with you."

So you men don't want to spend money on your date, but then you get pissed when another man spends money your date ....... while on the next night you go out and spend money another woman ........ yes, this is complicated....


----------



## Real talk

minimalME said:


> So, I'm just trying to understand your thinking on this.
> 
> If you ask a woman out, do you consider yourself taken advantage of if she doesn't offer to pay half?


One, why are you defaulting to an instance where I ask a woman out?

A better question would be do you consider a woman to be disadvantaged if she ends up paying for her own food in any instance and why.


----------



## minimalME

Real talk said:


> One, why are you defaulting to an instance where I ask a woman out?


Because that's the question I chose to ask.



> *A better question would be* do you consider a woman to be disadvantaged if she ends up paying for her own food in any instance and why.


Why is your question better than mine?


----------



## NextTimeAround

Real talk said:


> One, why are you defaulting to an instance where I ask a woman out?
> 
> A better question would be do you consider a woman to be disadvantaged if she ends up paying for her own food in any instance and why.


Interesting thought. I am glad that I am not the only who has contemplated this scenario.

Over the years I have been accused of being a "cheap date" when I have expressed thanks for being treated at the likes of Ruby Tuesday and other places of that caliber. I somehow thought we women should be thankful of even the small favors that a man avails to us.

But it becomes very insulting when a man lets you know that he feels he has gotten off cheaply with you.

I honestly don't know what you men want .... collectively speaking ......

But I do not want to be taken for a ride and learn that choices that I have made have cheapened me / my reputation / value to the guy that I am with.

If the guy would be more impressed if I had said "4 stars or nothing", then well, I would do it.


----------



## NextTimeAround

After my years of dating, here are some other ways that men trying to get women to pay for dates

1. Bristle about advance payment. Even for tickets to a cinema, aguy will try to put the task of getting tickets in advance on his date without acknowledging the cost.

2. Forgets wallet. enough said. And I would never advise a woman to "forget" her wallet. although, I remember in the 60s/70s when the dating game was on. I am very sure that the guy on one episode was a singer from the Temptations. One of his questions was "I sometimes forget my wallet on a date. What do you forget?" I can't remember what the other two women said, but one woman quite simply said "Mine." * And he chose her.*

3. Asks to borrow money. Resists paying back but continues to go out with the woman. Effectively, he is assuming that he is paying her back by paying for each outing.


----------



## minimalME

NextTimeAround said:


> After my years of dating, here are some other ways that men trying to get women to pay for dates
> 
> 1. Bristle about advance payment. Even for tickets to a cinema, aguy will try to put the task of getting tickets in advance on his date without acknowledging the cost.
> 
> 2. Forgets wallet. enough said. And I would never advise a woman to "forget" her wallet. although, I remember in the 60s/70s when the dating game was on. I am very sure that the guy on one episode was a singer from the Temptations. One of his questions was "I sometimes forget my wallet on a date. What do you forget?" I can't remember what the other two women said, but one woman quite simply said "Mine." * And he chose her.*
> 
> 3. Asks to borrow money. Resists paying back but continues to go out with the woman. Effectively, he is assuming that he is paying her back by paying for each outing.


NTA, what do you think about these scenarios? Do you prefer traditional dating or equality?


----------



## NextTimeAround

minimalME said:


> NTA, what do you think about these scenarios? Do you prefer traditional dating or equality?



Equality would be nice but how one makes decisions is rarely transparent. How do you decide how much one should pay on a date? If I'm a school teacher, should a guy expect to pay more of the date when out with me than with another woman who is a corporate lawyer?

For me the rearl insult come when the guy tell you that you're the one he cares about the most, but then hassles me to pay for things while when he's out with his "friends", he's happy to cover the tab.


----------



## salparadise

NextTimeAround said:


> Equality would be nice but how one makes decisions is rarely transparent. How do you decide how much one should pay on a date? If I'm a school teacher, should a guy expect to pay more of the date when out with me than with another woman who is a corporate lawyer?


What if he's the school teacher and you're a corporate lawyer? 

Why do I get the feeling that such a scenario is not within the realm of possibilities?


----------



## minimalME

NextTimeAround said:


> Equality would be nice but how one makes decisions is rarely transparent. How do you decide how much one should pay on a date? If I'm a school teacher, should a guy expect to pay more of the date when out with me than with another woman who is a corporate lawyer?


Well, why don't you decide this in advance (prior to dating) for yourself? 

If you prefer equality, then pay what seems right to you. You don't need a man to decide that for you. Pay half, pay all, pay whatever you want. And I wouldn't base it on what other women (or men) do - make your decision based on _your_ values.



> For me the rearl insult come when the guy tell you that you're the one he cares about the most, but then hassles me to pay for things while when he's out with his "friends", he's happy to cover the tab.


I understand. I've not had this happen to me, but I wouldn't continue dating someone who behaved this way. People need to grow up. A man who's obsessed with being taken advantage of isn't a healthy person to date. 

A mature person initiates conversations about topics that are important to him. He doesn't wait till the end of a meal to test you, he doesn't blame, shame or manipulate.


----------



## Livvie

I've split the bill on dates with a man I was dating. It went on for a long while of dating. He would always order really expensive specials and multiple drinks for himself. Sometimes what he ordered would be $40 **more* than what I ordered. I'm a vegetarian. He'd split the bill with me ----wait person would come for our two cards and he'd announce "down the middle" but that meant that I'd end up paying for my meal completely and also about $20 of his meal, too. Again and again. Oh and he made twice what I did.

I'll never be treated like that again. Once a waitress refused to do what he said and split the bill down the middle. She brought our slips to sign and said she rang us up by what we ordered instead of splitting it, she looked at him and said, she ordered a lot less than you.


----------



## NextTimeAround

salparadise said:


> What if he's the school teacher and you're a corporate lawyer?
> 
> Why do I get the feeling that such a scenario is not within the realm of possibilities?


Let's don't speculate. I'm in my late 50s, so I'll never be a corporate lawyer or anything else where I am making oodles of money. It would be great for some female high earners to come on here and tell us about their experiences with money and romance.

When I was younger, I was in situations in which I had more money than the guy I was dating. But quite frankly, I don't get the feeling that the guy was appreciative for my paying for dates. For my offering my assets, like a car, for the date. Not even asking for gas money. 

As I have mentioned on here before, I do think that one guy I dated when I was in undergrad was trying to borrow my car so that he could loan it to his ex girlfriend. Given all my experience with the nuances that come with dating, I shiver when i think of that scenario. Instead of that guy thinking of what nice generous girlfriend he has for giving the keys to her car and not keeping tabs on what he was doing; it would have been more like, what a sucker this ***** is, thinking that she cement a relationship with me while I'm trying to hook up with my ex. 

Why do guys have to judge women? If a woman offers to pay, why does she have to be viewed as desperate?

Why do guys have to be strategic with their money? most women think, ok, he / she paid for me lest week. I'llpay this week.

It seems to me that a guy thinks, she paid for me. That means I don't have to try that hard. Now, this other woman, she has told me that she doesn't have any money, even though I don'y know if that's true. So I have to try harder to get a date with her. IF things work out, that sense of surmounting a challenge is going to feel really good.

And how about these guys who support an ex gf when they don't have to while dating / co habitating / being exclusive with another woman and making her going 50 /50 in that relationship.

these things do happen.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Livvie said:


> I've split the bill on dates with a man I was dating. It went on for a long while of dating. He would always order really expensive specials and multiple drinks for himself. Sometimes what he ordered would be $40 **more* than what I ordered. I'm a vegetarian. He'd split the bill with me ----wait person would come for our two cards and he'd announce "down the middle" but that meant that I'd end up paying for my meal completely and also about $20 of his meal, too. Again and again. Oh and he made twice what I did.
> 
> I'll never be treated like that again. Once a waitress refused to do what he said and split the bill down the middle. She brought our slips to sign and said she rang us up by what we ordered instead of splitting it, she looked at him and said, she ordered a lot less than you.


So how do you manage the "who pays" conundrum when you date? Do you expect the guy to pay when it appears that he is trying to date you? Especially when he expects you to be exclusive to him?


----------



## minimalME

NextTimeAround said:


> So how do you manage the "who pays" conundrum when you date? Do you expect the guy to pay when it appears that he is trying to date you? Especially when he expects you to be exclusive to him?


I like the way the waitress took care of it for Livvie.

If you don't know what to do, simply ask for seperate checks at the beginning of the meal.


----------



## NextTimeAround

minimalME said:


> I like the way the waitress took care of it for Livvie.
> 
> If you don't know what to do, simply ask for seperate checks at the beginning of the meal.


If it comes to that, at least now I know that he and I will never go further than "just friends." and keep dating.


----------



## Livvie

NextTimeAround said:


> minimalME said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like the way the waitress took care of it for Livvie.
> 
> If you don't know what to do, simply ask for seperate checks at the beginning of the meal.
> 
> 
> 
> If it comes to that, at least now I know that he and I will never go further than "just friends." and keep dating.
Click to expand...

Next time around, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Do you mean that would not work for you, separate checks? You want a man/your date to pick up the tab in a dating situation?


----------



## Livvie

NextTimeAround said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've split the bill on dates with a man I was dating. It went on for a long while of dating. He would always order really expensive specials and multiple drinks for himself. Sometimes what he ordered would be $40 **more* than what I ordered. I'm a vegetarian. He'd split the bill with me ----wait person would come for our two cards and he'd announce "down the middle" but that meant that I'd end up paying for my meal completely and also about $20 of his meal, too. Again and again. Oh and he made twice what I did.
> 
> I'll never be treated like that again. Once a waitress refused to do what he said and split the bill down the middle. She brought our slips to sign and said she rang us up by what we ordered instead of splitting it, she looked at him and said, she ordered a lot less than you.
> 
> 
> 
> So how do you manage the "who pays" conundrum when you date? Do you expect the guy to pay when it appears that he is trying to date you? Especially when he expects you to be exclusive to him?
Click to expand...

I haven't been dating since that man. I probably need to start online dating if I want to meet men. I just know that as the woman, I don't want to be paying for my date ****every time***"!! On and on and on. It wasn't even ever half and half. I always paid more. I'm not interested in a lopsided dynamic that isn't even going dutch because I am always paying for him, too. Geez a friend would even do that. I have no idea how to handle this in the future on a first date. I guess is my date doesn't say "my treat" I'll of course expect to split the bill, but if half is waaay more than what I ordered I'll suggest putting in to the extent of what we ordered.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Livvie said:


> Next time around, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Do you mean that would not work for you, separate checks? You want a man/your date to pick up the tab in a dating situation?


Separate checks would only settle the issue for the moment .... that is, how much one should pay at that restaurant.

What is more helpful, is to understand what money means not only to onself but to the person that you are dealing with .... particularly if you are considering an LTR with that person. IMO, after all my experience, if I had to ask for separate checks when out with some guy, I would accept that he and I are only friends.

Livvie, are you a hetero woman or hetero man? I am surprised that you don't see a bigger picture / nuance lurking behind the fact that 1) not only does the guy not want to pay for you on a date but 2) you need to ask for separate checks to ensure that he does not succeed in getting you to subsidise his dinner.


----------



## salparadise

Livvie said:


> I've split the bill on dates with a man I was dating. [...] I'll never be treated like that again. Once a waitress refused to do what he said and split the bill down the middle. She brought our slips to sign and said she rang us up by what we ordered instead of splitting it, she looked at him and said, she ordered a lot less than you.





NextTimeAround said:


> Equality would be nice but how one makes decisions is rarely transparent. How do you decide how much one should pay on a date? [...] but then hassles me to pay for things while when he's out with his "friends", he's happy to cover the tab.





minimalME said:


> I understand. I've not had this happen to me, but I wouldn't continue dating someone who behaved this way. People need to grow up. A man who's obsessed with being taken advantage of isn't a healthy person to date.


So what I'm hearing is that y'all are reluctantly willing share some of the costs... but are hypersensitive about context and making sure that you're not paying a nickel more than the actual cost of what you ordered. Yet emphasize that a man who's obsessed with being taken advantage of is unhealthy? 

The underlying attitude that I'm sensing here is that most women really feel that dating should be free (for them), can tolerate contributing something as long as the balance clearly remains in their favor, but the man loses points by either allowing or expecting her to contribute. And if the perception is that the balance has tipped the other way, that the guy picked up a check when he was out with buddies, or this or that or something else... then he's a cad trying to take advantage of you. 

I find it curious how all of these scenarios pose an extreme, unusual context followed by subtle or overt denigration of the men in question. Of course it's distasteful when the scenario is extreme... would any of you feel the same if the genders were reversed? Are there any women who believe and desire, based purely on principle and without any resentment, that economic benefit/burden should be removed from dating?


----------



## minimalME

salparadise said:


> So what I'm hearing is that y'all are reluctantly willing share some of the costs


No. I'm not reluctantly willing. I wouldn't be sharing costs unless we were well on our towards marriage.



> ... but are hypersensitive about context and making sure that you're not paying a nickel more than the actual cost of what you ordered. Yet emphasize that a man who's obsessed with being taken advantage of is unhealthy?


I'm not hypersensitive to context in any way. It's a very simple proposition to me. 

And you're lumping us all together when each of us said different things. I'm the one who said that men who micromanage costs on dates are unhealthy. And I stand by that. 



> The underlying attitude that I'm sensing here is that most women really feel that dating should be free (for them), can tolerate contributing something as long as the balance clearly remains in their favor, but the man loses points by either allowing or expecting her to contribute.


On a very basic M/F level, dating for me is traditional. I'm not a feminist, and I'm not seeking equality. And it's not about the money - it's about the dynamic of the relationship. I'm looking for a man who leads and provides and who cherishes me. (But the motive for my dating also isn't about fun or entertaining myself, and I don't use people for their buying power.)



> I find it curious how all of these scenarios pose an extreme, unusual context followed by subtle or overt denigration of the men in question. Of course it's distasteful when the scenario is extreme... would any of you feel the same if the genders were reversed? Are there any women who believe and desire, based purely on principle and without any resentment, that economic benefit/burden should be removed from dating?


My dating experiences haven't been extreme. In terms of paying, they've been very straightforward and simple. Even when I've brought up equality in dating/relationships to see what a man's thoughts are on the subject, I've been assured that paying for dates isn't even an issue on their radar.

It comes down to what people are looking for. Personally, I think equality in romantic relationships is a myth, but I realize that the majority of people think differently.


----------



## NextTimeAround

I don't think the whole context here is spelled out, so here goes.

I am talking about situations in which 

1. the guy tells me I'm no. 1.
2. expects me not to date other men; therefore, if I mention any guys I need to give him the history of how I know this guy.
3. wants to know what I'm doing when he's not around.

yet I find out that after all that dutch treating, he's out wining and dining someone else or more than someone else.

I remember talking about this with a female friend before I had that talk with future husband, I wanted to make sure that I could cover all bases. Even my female friend got it wrong when she tried to explain to me, maybe he pays for more when he goes with his female "friend" because they don't see each other that often.

I told her that I don't want to compare myself to some canned goods at the grocery in which a guy could "buy" more of my time at a cheaper rate. The more time that I am with him, the less time and opportunity that I have to find a boyfriend who could treat me as well as my (future) husband was treating his friend.

And in my specific scenario, yes his friend was openly doing online dating and dating other men; and at some point she and her new boyfriend declared their relationship on FB. My husband is a music buff and so was she; I started to notice that when he mentioned on his FB wall concerts that he attended without me, that she would "like" them. This is why I like FB so much.

In other words, if being more generous per date with someone could be justified by saying "but I don't see her that often," well, then baby, I've got the solution for us.


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## minimalME

NextTimeAround said:


> In other words, if being more generous per date with someone could be justified by saying "but I don't see her that often," well, then baby, I've got the solution for us.


Love that attitude!


----------



## Real talk

minimalME said:


> Because that's the question I chose to ask.
> 
> 
> 
> Why is your question better than mine?


Because it's not a neutral situation and limited in scope.

In modern dating most people agree to go out mutually. I'm fully in agreement that whoever asks explicitly should pay. But most women still think a man should pay if a woman asks a man out to. 

I know for most situations I fully expect women to put their step forward just as much as I do.


----------



## Livvie

NextTimeAround said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Next time around, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Do you mean that would not work for you, separate checks? You want a man/your date to pick up the tab in a dating situation?
> 
> 
> 
> Separate checks would only settle the issue for the moment .... that is, how much one should pay at that restaurant.
> 
> What is more helpful, is to understand what money means not only to onself but to the person that you are dealing with .... particularly if you are considering an LTR with that person. IMO, after all my experience, if I had to ask for separate checks when out with some guy, I would accept that he and I are only friends.
> 
> Livvie, are you a hetero woman or hetero man? I am surprised that you don't see a bigger picture / nuance lurking behind the fact that 1) not only does the guy not want to pay for you on a date but 2) you need to ask for separate checks to ensure that he does not succeed in getting you to subsidise his dinner.
Click to expand...

I'm a heterosexual woman. Late 40s. I'm really cute, and I'm intelligent, capable, dependable, stable, warm, passionate, and fun. I was married for 16 years but my husband was extremely emotionally abusive. After that long, my self worth was warped, as was my knowledge of how regular people treat each other (with care and integrity).

That man I dated was the first and only one I've dated after divorce. I had a hard time standing up for my worth, and I believe he was high on the narcissism scale, and was a master emotional manipulator ("my other girlfriends wouldn't have thought twice about who is paying more, my other girlfriends were good women and would have done x,y,z") --- He was a complete mooch who never paid even his fair share of anything, and he made twice what I did. Forget about treating me!

I'm now aware of the nuances you mention. I'm aware that there are some men who will want to share, and not just take advantage of a woman monetarily. Especially one who doesn't earn a huge salary. I'm on a strict budget to keep my finances in good order. 

I'd truly appreciate and feel so cared for-? can't find the right words...if a man on a date treated me to dinner/lunch/coffee!! But what ****s me up is when I read on this forum how men don't want to do that. They want a woman who pays her own way on a date. I get that, but I don't want to be in a situation again where I'm *always* paying not only for myself but HIM as well.


----------



## Bananapeel

For the sake of argument does it matter how expensive these dates are and does that affect how each side feels regarding who pays? IMO if people aren't spending a lot of money then how the bills are split up is far less of a concern. I've personally done a heck of a lot of dates that cost less than getting my haircut (the dates are quite fun and well received), so who pays is really unimportant. And keeping the costs low prevents these sorts of concerns.

Edit: FYI - I usually pay for dates because I'm a traditionalist and I recognize the uneven cost that women spend to prepare for dates. Hair, nails, clothes, etc. to prep costs significantly more for women then men.


----------



## arbitrator

*In fact, now that my ranch income has taken a discernible hit and I'm living off-site having to pay for my own housing/utilities now, my mid-distance(90-100 miles) GF has made it more than abundantly clear that she'd be more than happy to drive the distance to come over here to see me and to even pay for the date, or at least help out with the lions share of it!

I must admit that she is truly one loving, remarkable woman!*


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## Affaircare

Here's my 2 cents--probably worth about that much LOL 

I say that the person who did the inviting pay for the date, as one option.

Or if one traveled, the other pays.

Or in any other reasonable way that the cost of both getting there and dating should be shared. I take the attitude that both parties are adults and both should contribute. Now...on the occasion one may feel generous and want to treat the other out of love, but it should be reciprocal and not all one-sided. Give and receive should be balanced. 

To me that shows both mutual respect and sharing. It would be equality in action because literally both parties are equal, but equality means precisely that you GIVE as much as you receive!


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## NextTimeAround

Livvie said:


> I'm a heterosexual woman. Late 40s. I'm really cute, and I'm intelligent, capable, dependable, stable, warm, passionate, and fun. I was married for 16 years but my husband was extremely emotionally abusive. After that long, my self worth was warped, as was my knowledge of how regular people treat each other (with care and integrity).
> 
> That man I dated was the first and only one I've dated after divorce. I had a hard time standing up for my worth, and I believe he was high on the narcissism scale, and was a master emotional manipulator ("my other girlfriends wouldn't have thought twice about who is paying more, my other girlfriends were good women and would have done x,y,z") --- He was a complete mooch who never paid even his fair share of anything, and he made twice what I did. Forget about treating me!


Thanks for your response, Livvie. I'll respond in pieces.

I know that a lot of women claim to happily pay for themselves or for the whole date but I have never heard of one who allowed the above treatment to go on for so long. More information from you gave more context to your situation and now it's not easy to understand why you put up with such treatment but also helpful to others and maybe to yourself still to remind yourself about these feelings of lack of self worth that you have, in order to get out of your immediate comfort zone and stand up for yourself.

And I am also glad for discussions like these so that everyone can put their experiences and beliefs on the table and we all sort through them; not only to develop personal policies that we can live with but also to understand how some one else might feel.

By personal policy, I mean one that you feel good about and works for you. so that when you follow your personal policy and the other expresses their disapproval, you can still stand by what you have chosen for yourself.

That means, for example, for men, decide at whatever point in the dating cycle that you will expect and therefore, if necessary, start asking the woman to contribute to the cost of dating. Well, if you've developed a durable personal policy, then it can withstand the loss of any dating prospect that you thought you might have had.

Instead, what I have found is that the woman who refuses to pay is the one that the guy will step up to the plate to. Is this because he assumes that she must be getting better offers elsewhere and he needs to try harder? He likes the challenge? She looks less desperate when she sets the terms? He likes women who are feisty? 

The same goes for women. If you want a guy to pay for everything, then you have to limit yourself to high earners with low financial responsibilities AND who are also open to the idea of paying for his partner. My sister was telling me about how a friend of hers --medical doctor, single, no kids, drives a Porsche and so on-- will only date women who have enough disposable income to pay her half of the cost of activities between them. Does he ever regret missed opportunities with one or two women he knew who did not make the same kind of money? I don't know.

And so, just like in my case, my future husband would run to the cash machine for his "just a friend ex" but with me, he would hassle me to pay for this and that because ...... he didn't get to the cash machine. That habit annoyed even before I learned about this difference in treatment. At first I thought I would pay the seemingly small costs to show him that yes, I'm not after your money. Particularly important, I would think for a lifelong nerd like my husband who last gf relationships was in college and by 40 he's still single. 

But obviously, that was not important to him since he was perfectly happy to give the gf treatment to a woman who already had a bf. Makes no sense on the street level. At least not to me.

Livvie, in your case, I hate to say, but I believe your guy knew that what he was doing was wrong but decided that if you don't say anything about it, then why should he? I bet any of the other woman he dated who could quietly sit on her hands when the bill came, probably got even better treatment after that?

*Question*: How did this guy react when the waitress gave you two separate checks that better reflected what you individually ordered? did he still give her an appropriate tip? Did he say anything about her to you? what were his facial expressions? Do you know if he ever went back to that restaurant?


----------



## 269370

Are you seriously still all debating who should pay? Can I buy everybody a round of drinks so we can talk about something else? 🥂


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## UpsideDownWorld11

I always pay cuz it makes women wet.


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## Real talk

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I always pay cuz it makes women wet.


It really doesn't. If a woman is aroused by you she'll pay the whole tab without a second thought. If you do nothing for her no amount of date paying will change that.

When I was single I would make women take me out and it actually seemed to make them wetter.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

I don't think that is true unless you are a 10 dating 5's. All things even, women want a man to take charge, that means picking the place and picking up the tab. 

Now if the woman asked you out, then go ahead and put on a dress and let her pay.


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## NobodySpecial

Bananapeel said:


> For the sake of argument does it matter how expensive these dates are and does that affect how each side feels regarding who pays?


It does and doesn't. On the one hand, an inexpensive date does not make me say, gee I think I will just let him pay. But an expensive date definitely makes it more directly on my mind.


----------



## minimalME

Bananapeel said:


> For the sake of argument does it matter how expensive these dates are and does that affect how each side feels regarding who pays?


I prefer that men decide what the dates will be, so how expensive they are or aren't is totally up to them.


----------



## RandomDude

Meh, whatever the cost I just swipe my card and don't even think about it. I hate having to calculate or split bills or whatever. With mates it's the same.

All this equality BS, meh. Just out for a good time right?


----------



## NobodySpecial

RandomDude said:


> Meh, whatever the cost I just swipe my card and don't even think about it. I hate having to calculate or split bills or whatever. With mates it's the same.
> 
> All this equality BS, meh. Just out for a good time right?


I HOPE I have vetted all my dates well enough before going out to know that there is no quid pro quo about paying = other things that they feel that they have purchased with that dinner or whatever. But knowing I am more than willing to whip out my card helps with that little niggling question. I always pay with friends and groups and stuff. A fool and her money , indeed. But I have a similar opinion. We are out having fun. My turn! Though I don't know anyone who does not also say my turn as well.


----------



## NextTimeAround

inmyprime said:


> Are you seriously still all debating who should pay? Can I buy everybody a round of drinks so we can talk about something else? 🥂
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How long do you think we should talk about it?

Also, I don't think one should concentrate on who pays for the first date but to think about what one is willing to pay for and at what point in the relationship cycle.

For example, if you wanted to date a single parent, are you prepared to pay for some or all the babysitting fees?

Have you ever offered to pay for babysitting with one person but then flatly avoided the issue with another? What made the difference in either situation?

The same for transportation. Are you consistent on the issue of how your date meets you or do you offer to pick them up or pay for their taxi or do you just say "see you there."?


----------



## Livvie

NextTimeAround, the waitress deciding to split the bill by what we each ordered happened to be at an Applebee's!! Funny because the usual places he would order so much more than me were high end local restaurants. It was the one and only time we were at that Applebee's (or any Applebee's actually), we were out doing errands together and it was close. He had no comment or reaction to the situation. Kind of like pretending it didn't happen.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Livvie said:


> NextTimeAround, the waitress deciding to split the bill by what we each ordered happened to be at an Applebee's!! Funny because the usual places he would order so much more than me were high end local restaurants. It was the one and only time we were at that Applebee's (or any Applebee's actually), we were out doing errands together and it was close. He had no comment or reaction to the situation. Kind of like pretending it didn't happen.


did a light bulb finally turn on after that incident? or did you need other events to make realise that he was being unreasonable with you?


----------



## Livvie

inmyprime said:


> Are you seriously still all debating who should pay? Can I buy everybody a round of drinks so we can talk about something else? 🥂
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes we are. Maybe the topic is not relevant to your life, but to some it is. I recall you having a really long thread recently about a situation of yours and no one chimed in with, "are you all still seriously debating it."


----------



## Livvie

NextTimeAround said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> NextTimeAround, the waitress deciding to split the bill by what we each ordered happened to be at an Applebee's!! Funny because the usual places he would order so much more than me were high end local restaurants. It was the one and only time we were at that Applebee's (or any Applebee's actually), we were out doing errands together and it was close. He had no comment or reaction to the situation. Kind of like pretending it didn't happen.
> 
> 
> 
> did a light bulb finally turn on after that incident? or did you need other events to make realise that he was being unreasonable with you?
Click to expand...

It wasn't then, but at a freaking pub. I had ordered food that was less than $20 total. He had ordered multiple drinks, two seafood app specials and a meal special and the bill came to about $100. He wanted to split it, once again. I struggle to limit my spending and what I can order and have myself, so I can pay my ****ing mortgage. No way was I going to pay for him once again... living frugally and denying myself things I wanted... and having never been treated by him!!! It was the last straw. I think my reply to him was oh my God, no way. He had the nerve to get pissed that I didn't want to split the bill. I stood up for myself and said I had been paying entirely for myself and also for part of his meal *every time* we had gone out and that I could not and didn't want to do that anymore.


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## NextTimeAround

@Livvie, so when it comes to the costs of dates, what rules /boundaries have you set up for yourself that you can live with even in the face of someone disapproving them.


----------



## Livvie

NextTimeAround said:


> @Livvie, so when it comes to the costs of dates, what rules /boundaries have you set up for yourself that you can live with even in the face of someone disapproving them.


I don't want to let my baggage about someone having taken advantage of me color my future. After all, I accepted it for as long as I did. But now I'm aware that there are men who will be fine doing this. If I feel that I'm consistently paying more than my fair share, I will feel fine speaking up and explaining that that lopsided dynamic doesn't work for me, that I'm not wired to be more of the financial provider, and my finances cannot support that scenario either. 

If a date was someone who wanted to treat me to something, after all of the years I spent not experiencing this kind of care, I'd probably melt.

I'm aware of friends who go on dates and have men treat all of the time It makes me feel "less than" and a little sad that I haven't gotten to feel special in this way, and that for many women it's pretty common place.


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## NextTimeAround

The fist guy my sister dated after her divorce, she complained that he was cheap. When they went out, everything was 50/50. Ok, fair enough for you feminist men.

But I do recall we were at a bar waiting for him to come. my sister said, let's hurry up and close this tab because he's known to order a drink and just walk away.


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## NextTimeAround

NobodySpecial said:


> *I HOPE I have vetted all my dates well enough before going out to know that there is no quid pro quo about paying = other things that they feel that they have purchased with that dinner or whatever. *But knowing I am more than willing to whip out my card helps with that little niggling question. I always pay with friends and groups and stuff. A fool and her money , indeed. But I have a similar opinion. We are out having fun. My turn! Though I don't know anyone who does not also say my turn as well.


Reading on other places online, it seems that a lot 20 somethings are committed to paying for themselves because they worry as well that the guy will expect sex afterwards.

I have never encountered that kind of scenario. What I suspect is that these 20somethings probably think nothing of going to a guy's place at the end of that date...... and then they are appalled that their date assumed that sex was at some point during the ride to his place put on the evening's menu. 

Of course, you can't tell these women anything. It's kind of like when a patient tells the doctor "everytime my right index finger touches a point on my body, it hurts. what's wrong with those places?" It turns out that problem was in the right index finger.

People should understand the power of non verbal communication instead of thinking that they are immune to it.


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## FrenchFry

NextTimeAround said:


> Reading on other places online, it seems that a lot 20 somethings are committed to paying for themselves because they worry as well that the guy will expect sex afterwards.
> 
> I have never encountered that kind of scenario. What I suspect is that these 20somethings probably think nothing of going to a guy's place at the end of that date...... and then they are appalled that their date assumed that sex was at some point during the ride to his place put on the evening's menu.


It's pretty awful that your default position is "they were asking for it," just because you've never encountered that scenario.

I haven't dated since my 20's but this line of thinking was really, really common among men when I was dating. Not at a house, at a restaurant or a pub and then getting aggressive when you rejected their attempt to get you to go to a house. A lot of the time being flat out pushy with supplying alcohol to get those inhibitions lowered so that the "logic" of "I paid for your meal, so you owe me" sounds more plausible. I believe as well that it would happen far more to those who are somewhat "new" to dating rather than people who have been around the block a few times.

Me, I always split the first date. Second date was up to whomever initiated it and then the third date was whoever didn't pay the last time and never really thought about it. I do the same with my friends though and I don't hang out with people who would take advantage of such a situation.


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## RandomDude

NobodySpecial said:


> I HOPE I have vetted all my dates well enough before going out to know that there is no quid pro quo about paying = other things that they feel that they have purchased with that dinner or whatever. But knowing I am more than willing to whip out my card helps with that little niggling question. I always pay with friends and groups and stuff. A fool and her money , indeed. But I have a similar opinion. We are out having fun. My turn! Though I don't know anyone who does not also say my turn as well.


Heh over here it's "my shout" 

I still remember some family dinners as a child where everyone was busy at the end counting and calculating everything. What a sour note to end on! Just swipe it already! Bah!



NextTimeAround said:


> Reading on other places online, it seems that a lot 20 somethings are committed to paying for themselves because they worry as well that the guy will expect sex afterwards.


Haha well they can try, if they are fast enough 

Too bad I draw my card out like a cowboy! :2gunsfiring_v1:


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## NextTimeAround

FrenchFry said:


> It's pretty awful that your default position is "they were asking for it," just because you've never encountered that scenario.
> 
> I haven't dated since my 20's but this line of thinking was really, really common among men when I was dating. Not at a house, at a restaurant or a pub and then getting aggressive when you rejected their attempt to get you to go to a house. A lot of the time being flat out pushy with supplying alcohol to get those inhibitions lowered so that the "logic" of "I paid for your meal, so you owe me" sounds more plausible. I believe as well that it would happen far more to those who are somewhat "new" to dating rather than people who have been around the block a few times.
> 
> Me, I always split the first date. Second date was up to whomever initiated it and then the third date was whoever didn't pay the last time and never really thought about it. I do the same with my friends though and I don't hang out with people who would take advantage of such a situation.


I'm not blaming the victim. I'm trying to make sense of the disconnect. I used to ask myself why did it seem that other people / women had fewer problems than I did (not just about sex but about just about everything else) and then I realised a lot of it had to do with their behavior and the choices that they made. I noticed that they would say "no" sooner and avoid giving others the benefit of the doubt. Now, I agree that when it's around personal safety (among other things) that's a smarter way of doing things. 

I learned for example, that even when a guy didn't take me out / buy me dinner that if I went over to his place, he would assume that I was down for it. So maybe the expectation of sex rarely has anything to do with a guy paying for the date. 

I think if you're having problems with something, it's best to look at all possibilities instead of concentrating on one aspect which may prove to be a weak link in the series of events.

Here's an incident in which a date consisting of the guy paying and the couple repairing to his place went horribly wrong. there are many interpretations to this story: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/01/the-humiliation-of-aziz-ansari/550541/


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## FrenchFry

NextTimeAround said:


> I think if you're having problems with something, it's best to look at all possibilities instead of concentrating on one aspect which may prove to be a weak link in the series of events.


Right, but this seems like you conflating two separate things and then saying hey, if you don't do X, Y won't happen when X is different than A. X is going over to someone's house, A is getting your dinner paid for. I definitely think there is room to argue about the expectations of X -- but in this case we are talking about A. If I'm misinterpreting that, my apologies.

In my experience, I would be extremely hesitant to have a dinner paid for in the first dates or so because I have had the experience of the expectation that "paying for dinner" means "going home with me," and the easiest, best way for me avoid that is just to split the bill so there is no sense of owing the dude at all - to cut off that avenue of pressure from the get go because there are absolutely people out there with the expectation of "paying for a meal = going home with me."


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## Livvie

French Fry, what would you do on the first few dates if "splitting" the bill meant that each time you were actually paying a lot more than what you had, so paying for yourself completely and also a good portion of your date's share? Would that bother you if he let that happen on the fist dates?


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## Elizabeth001

Livvie said:


> French Fry, what would you do on the first few dates if "splitting" the bill meant that each time you were actually paying a lot more than what you had, so paying for yourself completely and also a good portion of your date's share? Would that bother you if he let that happen on the fist dates?




You don’t actually “split” the bill. You ask for separate checks from the start. 


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## Elizabeth001

And it’s not all about the expectation of sex. For me, and I’m FAR from my 20s, it’s about the expectation of anything. Even as simple as further communication. I don’t like feeling obligated to do anything if I end up not having a connection. We are talking about the first date here. 


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## UpsideDownWorld11

FrenchFry said:


> Right, but this seems like you conflating two separate things and then saying hey, if you don't do X, Y won't happen when X is different than A. X is going over to someone's house, A is getting your dinner paid for. I definitely think there is room to argue about the expectations of X -- but in this case we are talking about A. If I'm misinterpreting that, my apologies.
> 
> In my experience, I would be extremely hesitant to have a dinner paid for in the first dates or so because I have had the experience of the expectation that "paying for dinner" means "going home with me," and the easiest, best way for me avoid that is just to split the bill so there is no sense of owing the dude at all - to cut off that avenue of pressure from the get go because there are absolutely people out there with the expectation of "paying for a meal = going home with me."



I don't think there is an expectation, maybe more of a hope. Some guys will try no matter what. I would too, just to see if you would, if you agree, great I get sex. If you say no, then great, you are LTR material. Its a win win. Or maybe there was just nothing there, then its just a lose.

But I always pay even if I know there is nothing there and there won't be a second date or any sexy time afterwards. I asked her out, so I pay, plus I just think its the gentlemanly thing to do...like an unwritten rule, feminism be damned.


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## NextTimeAround

Livvie said:


> French Fry, what would you do on the first few dates if "splitting" the bill meant that each time you were actually paying a lot more than what you had, so paying for yourself completely and also a good portion of your date's share? Would that bother you if he let that happen on the fist dates?


Split the bill does not have to mean 50/50. If I hear "let's split this", I automatically assume the costs that my meal incurred plus the tip.


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## FrenchFry

I think I would do it for the first time or couple of dates, at the very least the first date only because that first date you don't know a lot about that person or their finances. 

By the third/fourth date, I wouldn't split bills--I'd be onto trading bills and if the trading is disproportionate like "I asked you out to coffee, I want to go to a lobster dinner" I think that does say a lot about the person.

I was a vegetarian for many years so my entree was always cheaper. I never really minded splitting 50/50 as long as it wasn't obviously taking advantage.


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## Real talk

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I don't think that is true unless you are a 10 dating 5's. All things even, women want a man to take charge, that means picking the place and picking up the tab.
> 
> Now if the woman asked you out, then go ahead and put on a dress and let her pay.


Sure that's what they prefer. But preference doesn't equate to favor. After all any regular man could wine and dine a woman and get nothing. That same woman will not only pay for the date but do mattress gymnastics on the first date to Brad Pitt.

Here's a secret, women find value in things they have to work for. There is a reason why negging and ignoring women work so much. This can manifest itself in different ways including monetarily.

There is a reason women cheat on their provider husbands with broke men.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Real talk said:


> Sure that's what they prefer. But preference doesn't equate to favor. After all any regular man could wine and dine a woman and get nothing. That same woman will not only pay for the date but do mattress gymnastics on the first date to Brad Pitt.
> 
> Here's a secret, women find value in things they have to work for. There is a reason why negging and ignoring women work so much. This can manifest itself in different ways including monetarily.
> 
> There is a reason women cheat on their provider husbands with broke men.


Being broke isn't an attractive quality to women. What you are referring to are beta bucks, and that is more to do with the beta quality than the bucks part. I agree with what you are talking about in general as far as building attraction, but that should all come before the check. Then pull out a wad of cash and throw it down and watch your step cuz the floor might be a little slippery.


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## salparadise

inmyprime said:


> Are you seriously still all debating who should pay? Can I buy everybody a round of drinks so we can talk about something else?


It's really not a very interesting conversation is it? There are only the two divergent opinions, no nuance, no rational debate, no interest in the sociological aspects. It's mostly the old school traditionalist women talking about how entitled they believe they are or should be, and their male counterparts who believe that paying is what they must do to be viewed as chivalrous, masculine and acceptable. I'm glad the real world is more diverse.

I've been single for over a year now, and have gone on a lot of first dates (meeting online). I like going out, getting acquainted with someone new and having a nice conversation (as opposed to messaging). I'm not all that concerned about outcomes, meaning I don't consider it a disaster if we don't click or the attraction just isn't there. We still enjoy talking and being social. We both realize we're looking for a needle in a haystack, and the odds of any one first date turning into more are pretty low.

But, if it's going to cost me $50 to $100 every time then it's going to turn into a cost-benefit analysis where I would need to be a lot more optimistic about a date's prospects, and I'd be meeting a lot fewer people. We're both there for exactly the same reason... the first date interview to see if there's enough interest to go on another date. I just don't feel like spending my hard-earned money on strangers that I most likely won't ever see again. I'm not there to woo and pursue, impress with the girth of my wallet, my white horse or shining armor... or as they say in country, I ain't takin'em to raise. We're just two equals, both there to size each other up and try to have an enjoyable time in the process. 

That's the practical side of it. There's also the sociological/cultural aspect that I believe, which I posted a few pages back. Bottom line, I'm a progressive, not a traditionalist, and I don't believe in the old gender entitlement notions. 

I've had two serious relationships (since divorce) and one not-so-serous one. The latter was one of those entitled types who felt that I should be paying for vagina access, selfish, entitled, a real piece of work. The other two were quite progressive and always wanted the costs to be balanced. Even when I insisted on treating (because I wanted to), they repaid in-kind and kept thing approximately in balance financially. What I learned was that the financial part is symbolic of how they are in a relationship overall. They treated me well, as I did them. The other one... well, my value to her was a lot about the perks she was receiving. Guess which one I don't ever want to repeat. 

Okay, I'm done.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

salparadise said:


> But, if it's going to cost me $50 to $100 every time then it's going to turn into a cost-benefit analysis where I would need to be a lot more optimistic about a date's prospects, and I'd be meeting a lot fewer people. We're both there for exactly the same reason... the first date interview to see if there's enough interest to go on another date.


Don't be spending big bucks on a first date. Just meet for drinks. Get a couple beers and buy her some fruity beverage. If it doesn't click, easy getaway. Avoid dinners until later dates.


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## FeministInPink

It's taken me a while to read this entire thread, which I wanted to do before I responding.

Whether or not the guy does or should pay on the first date (and thereafter) isn't necessarily a one-answer-fits-all question; what works for each person is unique, and it also sets a precedent for the dynamics of the relationship, if that first date turns into a relationship.

Prior to meeting Real Estate (my bf of now two years, for those not in the know), I had never dated a man who paid for everything. Most of my relationships were spent going dutch. Prior to meeting my XH, I was in college and dated guys in college, so everyone was broke... after my divorce, I even dated one guy who was in between jobs, so I paid for quite a bit. I didn't mind, because I enjoyed his company, and I still kept things frugal, and he contributed as much as he could.

When I met Real Estate, he blew me away by his attitude regarding who pays. He insists on paying for me all the time, and I had never experienced this before. We met for brunch, and right out of the gate, he said, "This is on me, I want to make that clear. And you should get whatever you want." He took me out again that evening, and when I realized I had forgotten to bring tampons and asked him to stop at a CVS, the man insisted on buying my freaking tampons! Later in the evening, I tried to insist on paying for something, and he refused, saying, "That's not how this works. I will always pay."

And what I didn't expect, because I had always paid my own way in a relationship, was how SPECIAL this made me feel. I'd never been with someone who wanted to spoil me like this. And it's just for me, for the most part--he splits checks with other people, unless he knows money is tight for them, or something like that. 

I told him initially that I was a little uncomfortable with him paying for everything, because it wasn't something I was accustomed to. He responded that he wouldn't be comfortable allowing me to pay, and he hoped that I could respect that and be ok with it. I said, ok, I can respect that, but told him if he ever felt I was taking advantage of his generosity, he should tell me and let me contribute. And I always thank him and let him know I appreciate it, whether he takes me out for a fancy dinner or just coffee.

It has created an unexpected dynamic in out relationship that I enjoy, and I think he does, too. I cook a lot of meals for us as an alternative to going out, which he really appreciates (he doesn't cook, really), and so see it as a way that I can give something of myself back to him. And I find other ways, too... I will get him groceries while he's napping (he hates grocery shopping), and prep some stuff so he has decent, healthy meals when I'm not around. Or I pick up small things for him at the store, little surprises or just things I know he needs. Knowing he always pays frees up mental/emotional space, and it also frees up some of my expendable income, which is part of his intent.

We've talked about this more than just that first time, and his reasoning comes from a couple different places. First, he was taught by his father that the man always pays. But in his mind, he wants to make me happy... And if ordering the stuffed lobster makes me happy, he wants me to get it and not worry if I can afford it. And if I'm not spending my money on dinner, then I can use my money for something else that brings me joy, like a new book or a dress. And he figures, if I spend my money on clothes or makeup or whatever, he's still getting to benefit from that... even if it's just a book or a game that makes me happy, that's just as well. And it generally makes him happy to spend his money on me; this is how he wants to spend it; and he wants me to spend my money on what I want, and not necessarily on him.

A long time ago, we were going through some relationship growing pains. We had been having a big fight, and we were going to "talk." He was on his way to pick me up, and I think we were both convinced that our relationship was going to end on this particular evening. Despite that, he insisted on taking me to a nice restaurant (of my choosing), saying, "If this is going to end, I want to make sure that it ends with me treating you well." Of course, it didn't end that night... his insistence on still wanting to take care of me, no matter what happened, went a long way.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Real talk

FeministInPink said:


> It's taken me a while to read this entire thread, which I wanted to do before I responding.
> 
> Whether or not the guy does or should pay on the first date (and thereafter) isn't necessarily a one-answer-fits-all question; what works for each person is unique, and it also sets a precedent for the dynamics of the relationship, if that first date turns into a relationship.
> 
> Prior to meeting Real Estate (my bf of now two years, for those not in the know), I had never dated a man who paid for everything. Most of my relationships were spent going dutch. Prior to meeting my XH, I was in college and dated guys in college, so everyone was broke... after my divorce, I even dated one guy who was in between jobs, so I paid for quite a bit. I didn't mind, because I enjoyed his company, and I still kept things frugal, and he contributed as much as he could.
> 
> When I met Real Estate, he blew me away by his attitude regarding who pays. He insists on paying for me all the time, and I had never experienced this before. We met for brunch, and right out of the gate, he said, "This is on me, I want to make that clear. And you should get whatever you want." He took me out again that evening, and when I realized I had forgotten to bring tampons and asked him to stop at a CVS, the man insisted on buying my freaking tampons! Later in the evening, I tried to insist on paying for something, and he refused, saying, "That's not how this works. I will always pay."
> 
> And what I didn't expect, because I had always paid my own way in a relationship, was how SPECIAL this made me feel. I'd never been with someone who wanted to spoil me like this. And it's just for me, for the most part--he splits checks with other people, unless he knows money is tight for them, or something like that.
> 
> I told him initially that I was a little uncomfortable with him paying for everything, because it wasn't something I was accustomed to. He responded that he wouldn't be comfortable allowing me to pay, and he hoped that I could respect that and be ok with it. I said, ok, I can respect that, but told him if he ever felt I was taking advantage of his generosity, he should tell me and let me contribute. And I always thank him and let him know I appreciate it, whether he takes me out for a fancy dinner or just coffee.
> 
> It has created an unexpected dynamic in out relationship that I enjoy, and I think he does, too. I cook a lot of meals for us as an alternative to going out, which he really appreciates (he doesn't cook, really), and so see it as a way that I can give something of myself back to him. And I find other ways, too... I will get him groceries while he's napping (he hates grocery shopping), and prep some stuff so he has decent, healthy meals when I'm not around. Or I pick up small things for him at the store, little surprises or just things I know he needs. Knowing he always pays frees up mental/emotional space, and it also frees up some of my expendable income, which is part of his intent.
> 
> We've talked about this more than just that first time, and his reasoning comes from a couple different places. First, he was taught by his father that the man always pays. But in his mind, he wants to make me happy... And if ordering the stuffed lobster makes me happy, he wants me to get it and not worry if I can afford it. And if I'm not spending my money on dinner, then I can use my money for something else that brings me joy, like a new book or a dress. And he figures, if I spend my money on clothes or makeup or whatever, he's still getting to benefit from that... even if it's just a book or a game that makes me happy, that's just as well. And it generally makes him happy to spend his money on me; this is how he wants to spend it; and he wants me to spend my money on what I want, and not necessarily on him.
> 
> A long time ago, we were going through some relationship growing pains. We had been having a big fight, and we were going to "talk." He was on his way to pick me up, and I think we were both convinced that our relationship was going to end on this particular evening. Despite that, he insisted on taking me to a nice restaurant (of my choosing), saying, "If this is going to end, I want to make sure that it ends with me treating you well." Of course, it didn't end that night... his insistence on still wanting to take care of me, no matter what happened, went a long way.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


If it works for you guys then that's fine. People should simply do what they're enthusiastically willing. If anyone is doing anything because that's what they feel a man or woman should do they're losing, and it's not something I would expect a feminist to do. He sounds like his own self worth is built around being needed and sacrificial and I don't think it's mentally healthy. That's the type of person to be bitter and burned out if things don't work out for him or he gets to a place where he isn't able to pay for everything. 

With that said I don't really understand how not paying for anything opens up mental and emotional space as you said it. Is it the feeling of being able to alleviate responsibility or self accountability? Why would an adult want to feel those emotions?


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## RandomDude

FeministInPink said:


> *Prior to meeting Real Estate (my bf of now two years, for those not in the know), I had never dated a man who paid for everything.* Most of my relationships were spent going dutch. Prior to meeting my XH, I was in college and dated guys in college, so everyone was broke... after my divorce, I even dated one guy who was in between jobs, so I paid for quite a bit. I didn't mind, because I enjoyed his company, and I still kept things frugal, and he contributed as much as he could...


WTF?! It's THAT rare?!

So you went through every single date before real estate having to calculate how much you spent each night?



> A long time ago, we were going through some relationship growing pains. We had been having a big fight, and we were going to "talk." He was on his way to pick me up, and I think we were both convinced that our relationship was going to end on this particular evening. Despite that, he insisted on taking me to a nice restaurant (of my choosing), saying, *"If this is going to end, I want to make sure that it ends with me treating you well."* Of course, it didn't end that night... his insistence on still wanting to take care of me, no matter what happened, went a long way.


Wow... lol

*takes pointers*


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## NextTimeAround

I like to think that I reasonable and realistic about money and dating. I do agree that if the guy is not a high earner and /or he has a lot of financial obligations, then a woman is going to have to accept more low key dates and contributing to their costs more often than with a guy who has greater disposable income.

The problem here which it does not seem that anyone has grasped is that we are talking about the beginning of a romantic relationship which if it progresses as we all hope (due to the ethos of this online community) to an exclusive relationship.

I don't keep track of how my friends spend their money. One, because it's understood that we pay for ourselves when we meet up and 2, because I can have more than one friend. If a restaurant is too expensive to go to with one friend, then I'll ask another friend to join me and find something more to the friend liking (and budget) with the first friend another time.

With an exclusive boyfriend, that is not how it works. If he doesn't want to pay for dinner, then ok, either I agree to pay or we don't go. I don't call another guy and make plans with him. This is why it does annoy me should I learn that I'm going dutch with the same guy who is happy to underwrite his outings -- because they're not dates, right ? -- with other women.

Kind of like a guy who faithfully waits 6 months of dating before having sex with his gf, who then becomes disillusioned when he learns that she is capable of having sex with other guys on the first date.

Other perverse things can happen when people don't consider how unusual and special the exclusive relationship is:

1. In the early days of dating my now husband, we were at an activity that ended in a pub. In an annoyed tone of voice he asked me, "do you want another drink?" With that attitude, I told him no. I later became involved in a conversation with another guy who offered me a drink and I accepted. My (future) husband became very upset. But this was during the same time period that he was still seeing his just a friend ex, paying for her, while she would go home to her boyfriend. 

Maybe he had not worked out what his behavior was saying. To me,he was saying he didn't mind paying for a woman who had a boyfriend. But he did mind paying for his girlfriend. What kind of sense does that make?

2. Why would a guy continue to make payments to an ex gf without a court order, children or other explicit obligation (like paying back an agreed loan) but then think nothing of hassling his current girlfriend to pay more and more for dates and other obligations (as they were living together.)

3. Why would a guy expect his long distance girlfriend to pay for her own flights to visit him but think nothing of handing over his airmiles to a (female) friend?

In once had this discussion on another message board and some femininazi told me, it's his money, he can do what he wants with it. That is true. But I am entitled not only to my own opinion but also to act on them as well. 

Moreover, I also think that the 3 scenarios are issues that need to be dealt with as the relationship progresses. Since giving somebody enough airmails to buy a plane ticket can represent $300 to 400 of value, that would be a serious blow to a lot of household budgets when someone is planning a trip. While this scenario may take place miles away (pun intended) from the first date, as soon as I am aware of this kind of thinking no matter how early in the relationship, I would definitely deal with it (not sure how at the moment, but I would be considering how best to handle it).


OTOH, I am sensitive to the fears that man have that women may be using them as a free meal ticket. Feel free then to disengage from women who have either friendzoned or multidated you. 

I just find it interesting that while so many people are pre occupied with who pays on a first date, unless you plan to be a serial one date wonder, there's a whole relationship ethos towards money that needs to be dealt with. And I don't see that discussed in too many places.


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## FeministInPink

Real talk said:


> If it works for you guys then that's fine. People should simply do what they're enthusiastically willing. If anyone is doing anything because that's what they feel a man or woman should do they're losing, and it's not something I would expect a feminist to do. He sounds like his own self worth is built around being needed and sacrificial and I don't think it's mentally healthy. That's the type of person to be bitter and burned out if things don't work out for him or he gets to a place where he isn't able to pay for everything.
> 
> With that said I don't really understand how not paying for anything opens up mental and emotional space as you said it. Is it the feeling of being able to alleviate responsibility or self accountability? Why would an adult want to feel those emotions?


It opens up space because neither one of us cares about keeping track... no tit for tat, so to speak. We are free to do nice things (or pay for stuff) because we want to, not because one or the other feels it's expected.

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## FeministInPink

RandomDude said:


> WTF?! It's THAT rare?!
> 
> So you went through every single date before real estate having to calculate how much you spent each night?


Pretty much. There is one exception, but yeah, pretty much.



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## RandomDude

FeministInPink said:


> Pretty much. There is one exception, but yeah, pretty much.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Hell well if that's the case it's official if I go to your country I'm gonna spoil all your women to up their standards abit! :rofl:

On a serious note... ARGH! That must mean every date would have been like watching a good movie with a sh-t ending!


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## She'sStillGotIt

inmyprime said:


> Are you seriously still all debating who should pay? Can I buy everybody a round of drinks so we can talk about something else? 🥂


That all depends - are you going to get out your calculator and tell me what my portion of the drink bill is when it comes time to leave? If so, no thanks. :grin2:


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