# Marriage triangle: God, husband, wife.



## Riverside MFT

I am sure that many of you have heard this before, and it has probably been discussed on this forum. I have always thought that the strongest marriages can be represented by a triangle.

........................God
........................./_\ .....................
......................../__\.......................
......................./___\.....................
....................../____\....................
...................../_____\...................
..................../______\..................
..............Husband.....Wife

As a husband and wife draw closer to God, they also come closer to each other. As they come closer to God, they develop more attributes that are essential for a relationship to last for years upon years. These characteristics include respect, forgiveness, repentance, love, and compassion. I have noticed this principle in my practice. As couples are working at drawing closer to God, they move through counseling faster and are able to maintain an intimate connection for a significant longer period of time.


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## 827Aug

Based on what I've gone through, I really believe that is an accurate assessment. Of course, my saga went the opposite direction. I moved closer to God and my estranged husband went the opposite direction (lying, cheating, swinging, embezzling, partying, drinking, etc.). No triangle for us-- but rather a straight line.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

My H only pulled the God card to try to get me to give him another chance (so I could find out what God had planned for us). I'll be better about choosing next time. I guess I read too much Corinthians, where your own faith is supposed to be enough to carry over as an example to the atheists and that it's possible for a Christian to be married to a non-Christian or even an atheist. I wonder what he was smoking when he wrote that stuff!


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## FaithHopeLove

Just throwing this out there to add on to this topic---

I completely believe a marriage includes 3 people: God, a husband, and a wife. Anything other situation can't possibly be a marriage. Something else to be aware of is to make sure that triangle doesn't become a more complicated shape by both sets of parents.

Now that I'm married, I'm starting to read more about how to cleave to my husband and leave my parents. That won't be an easy task for me because I am very close to my parents. I know already that certain decisions need to stay between my husband, God, and myself-- and-- that I don't have to tell my parents everything, but I have to be honest and say that while I do very much trust God, my parents are still my "security blanket" for when times get tough. I can't imagine not calling my Mom after a bad day at work and sharing what happened and seeing what she thinks, but I know that it would be much more appropriate if I shared such things with my husband instead.

Some Christian marriage counselors have spoken about the topic of couples not completely cleaving together and instead relying too much on their parents and the havoc it can wreck on a marriage. It's bad enough if we don't include God every day in our marriage, but letting our parents into our marriage can do a lot of damage too.


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## Dr Snuggles

Hi there, personally in my own marriage I am finding that whilst God always comes first in my life, the opposite is for my husband. My husband has always put himself first. Whenever I try to share the Gospel or any wonderful miracle in my life, my husband laughs it off to coincedence. It is very frustrating. Yes, I agree that if a man is a God fearing man, we as woman would definitely be loved and respected more. Today, we as woman have such a lot of responsibility - we are wives, breadwinners, lovers, mothers, house cleaners, domestic doctors and the list continues....it feels like our husbands are just there at home to eat food when they come home from work and the house is just a place to rest your head when you sleep. I should have taken the message of being "equally yoked" more seriously when I got married.


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## weR2

Dr Snuggles said:


> Hi there, personally in my own marriage I am finding that whilst God always comes first in my life, the opposite is for my husband. My husband has always put himself first. Whenever I try to share the Gospel or any wonderful miracle in my life, my husband laughs it off to coincedence. It is very frustrating. Yes, I agree that if a man is a God fearing man, we as woman would definitely be loved and respected more. Today, we as woman have such a lot of responsibility - we are wives, breadwinners, lovers, mothers, house cleaners, domestic doctors and the list continues....it feels like our husbands are just there at home to eat food when they come home from work and the house is just a place to rest your head when you sleep. I should have taken the message of being "equally yoked" more seriously when I got married.


I understand what you are saying here, but, it is not always women that have "such a lot of responsibilities. Besides myself, I can think of other men that have "such a lot of responsibilities" while their wives sit at home visiting with their friends. The man and woman need to grow together to become one with God (love triangle), but with the society in which we live we are fooled into believing that success is measured by how much you have. Nothing can be farther from the truth, what you have, should be your reward for the effort that you put forth in this world, to live a more comfortable life. Other than that, perhaps we need to spend more time on the "love triangle", growing together with our SO.

It seems, however, that the biggest hurdle is to encounter someone that PERCEIVES God in the same way that you do. If your SO has a different perception of God and what He expects, then everything becomes more difficult. The fact of the matter is that nowadays, with all the different ideas and beliefs, there are an astronomical amount of perceptions. WHICH IS CORRECT? That is for each of us to choose, we cannot "force" our beliefs onto someone else. It is by "works" (example) that we can reach them.


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## Parrothead

weR2 said:


> Besides myself, I can think of other men that have "such a lot of responsibilities" while their wives sit at home visiting with their friends.


Wow, you need to give being Mr. Mom a try.


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## Parrothead

Riverside MFT said:


> I am sure that many of you have heard this before, and it has probably been discussed on this forum. I have always thought that the strongest marriages can be represented by a triangle.
> 
> ........................God
> ........................./_\ .....................
> ......................../__\.......................
> ......................./___\.....................
> ....................../____\....................
> ...................../_____\...................
> ..................../______\..................
> ..............Husband.....Wife
> 
> As a husband and wife draw closer to God, they also come closer to each other. As they come closer to God, they develop more attributes that are essential for a relationship to last for years upon years. These characteristics include respect, forgiveness, repentance, love, and compassion. I have noticed this principle in my practice. As couples are working at drawing closer to God, they move through counseling faster and are able to maintain an intimate connection for a significant longer period of time.


:iagree:


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## 4sure

Most Christian couples think that if they are Christian that is all they need to do. That God will miraculously make everything in their marriage all rosey. Not going to happen. Each person has to work at it. Every marriage involves work.


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## CLucas976

FaithHopeLove said:


> Some Christian marriage counselors have spoken about the topic of couples not completely cleaving together and instead relying too much on their parents and the havoc it can wreck on a marriage. It's bad enough if we don't include God every day in our marriage, but letting our parents into our marriage can do a lot of damage too.





4sure said:


> Most Christian couples think that if they are Christian that is all they need to do. That God will miraculously make everything in their marriage all rosey. Not going to happen. Each person has to work at it. Every marriage involves work.



One of the biggest issues with trying to build god into my marriage was I think played in part by the in-laws. I see the longest lasting strongest couples are those who include god in their marriage, and have a shared belief they can grow with.

Hubs lived by the theory that all he needed to do was believe in god. No effort towards the marriage, no work towards a good life, and more saddening, he left god behind in the church, and only mentioned him in narcissism. 

To add to it, he was very much dependent on his parents to fix his problems. I remember many times where i reminded myself God would help us through it and we could do it, only to have him call daddy every time anything went wrong instead of working with his wife to solve it.

It does become an issue, I got to a point where it drove me nuts to have his parents paying for and fixing thing we otherwise could have, had "we" been trying. I also stopped bothering to have the sunday "get out of bed" fight to go to church because it was more for show than anything else. 

I still think a good marriage includes god, but much like my ex in laws, it cannot rely on one force alone with no effort from the individuals involved. You can't sit around waiting for god to magically fix everything while you watch cartoons, and you cannot sit around letting the parents fix everything either. Man and Wife work together, not sit around waiting for everything to work for them.


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## FaithHopeLove

4sure said:


> Most Christian couples think that if they are Christian that is all they need to do. That God will miraculously make everything in their marriage all rosey. Not going to happen. Each person has to work at it. Every marriage involves work.


I've never heard any Christian couple state that they think God will do all the work. Even having faith in God requires work-- you work on building your faith through prayer, worship, reading the Bible, a marriage requires that you care for the relationship just like you would your relationship with God. 

However, without God in your marital relationship (and your personal relationship) you'll have to do a lot more work to keep things going.


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## weR2

Parrothead said:


> Wow, you need to give being Mr. Mom a try.


A try? I have gone the "extra mile" not for myself, but because of the realization that I must GROW with my SO to be able to reach that pinnacle of the "triangle". With the realization that we each have varying degrees of learning and stamina, I chose to "help" in ways that others may or may not, for love.

I also realize that as a male, I cannot fully inderstand the NATURAL realtionship of the female to their offspring/family. Likewise, the female cannot fully understand the NATURAL relationship of the male to their offspring/family. BUT, I am not afraid to assist in chores and duties that will enhance the physical, mental, or spiritual growth of ANY family.


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## Parrothead

weR2 said:


> A try? I have gone the "extra mile" not for myself, but because of the realization that I must GROW with my SO to be able to reach that pinnacle of the "triangle". With the realization that we each have varying degrees of learning and stamina, I chose to "help" in ways that others may or may not, for love.
> 
> I also realize that as a male, I cannot fully inderstand the NATURAL realtionship of the female to their offspring/family. Likewise, the female cannot fully understand the NATURAL relationship of the male to their offspring/family. BUT, I am not afraid to assist in chores and duties that will enhance the physical, mental, or spiritual growth of ANY family.


It's not about a female's "natural relationship". It's about a realization of just what a housewife does. They don't just "visit with friends". Don't believe me? Just watch what happens when they stop doing it.


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## Blanca

4sure said:


> Most Christian couples think that if they are Christian that is all they need to do. That God will miraculously make everything in their marriage all rosey. Not going to happen. Each person has to work at it. Every marriage involves work.


:iagree:

I grew up listening to my mom think that being religious was going to solve all her problems. She really thought that if she just loved god, went to church, read her bible, that everything would be OK. She believed it so much that when things were not OK she couldn't accept it, still cant. Both my parents were devoutly religious. Their problems only got worse because they just kept looking up instead of at themselves. Of course that's not the case for every religious family.

Religion is simply an extended expression of oneself. Emotionally healthy people who want to be married make marriage work. They could pray to a rock, call it whatever they want, and get the same results. As christ said in the bible to all those who were looking outward for the kingdom of heaven, It exists in you. There's nothing 'out there' to find. If an already healthy person turns to a higher power it will help the marriage because out of their emotions they create the boundaries of their religion. Unhealthy people are doomed by religion, not because religion doomed them but because their unhealthy emotions create the religion and their god. The parameters of their religion will necessarily be unhealthy because they are unhealthy and it will add to the dysfunction of the marriage. There's nothing 'out there' that's going to help, which is a huge mistake so many emotionally unhealthy individuals make.


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## Riverside MFT

FaithHopeLove said:


> Now that I'm married, I'm starting to read more about how to cleave to my husband and leave my parents. That won't be an easy task for me because I am very close to my parents. I know already that certain decisions need to stay between my husband, God, and myself-- and-- that I don't have to tell my parents everything, but I have to be honest and say that while I do very much trust God, my parents are still my "security blanket" for when times get tough. I can't imagine not calling my Mom after a bad day at work and sharing what happened and seeing what she thinks, but I know that it would be much more appropriate if I shared such things with my husband instead.
> 
> Some Christian marriage counselors have spoken about the topic of couples not completely cleaving together and instead relying too much on their parents and the havoc it can wreck on a marriage. It's bad enough if we don't include God every day in our marriage, but letting our parents into our marriage can do a lot of damage too.


I love the word "cleave" and how it applies to a relationship. To me cleaving to your spouse is more than just a marriage contract. It is being best friends and sharing your lives together.



Dr Snuggles said:


> Hi there, personally in my own marriage I am finding that whilst God always comes first in my life, the opposite is for my husband. My husband has always put himself first. Whenever I try to share the Gospel or any wonderful miracle in my life, my husband laughs it off to coincedence. It is very frustrating. Yes, I agree that if a man is a God fearing man, we as woman would definitely be loved and respected more. Today, we as woman have such a lot of responsibility - we are wives, breadwinners, lovers, mothers, house cleaners, domestic doctors and the list continues....it feels like our husbands are just there at home to eat food when they come home from work and the house is just a place to rest your head when you sleep. I should have taken the message of being "equally yoked" more seriously when I got married.


Selfishness should have no place in a marital relationship (or any relationship for that matter). EVERY problem I see in my counseling office can relate back to one or both members of the relationship being selfish.


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## cb45

Blanca said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I grew up listening to my mom think that being religious was going to solve all her problems. She really thought that if she just loved god, went to church, read her bible, that everything would be OK. She believed it so much that when things were not OK she couldn't accept it, still cant. Both my parents were devoutly religious. Their problems only got worse because they just kept looking up instead of at themselves. Of course that's not the case for every religious family.
> 
> Religion is simply an extended expression of oneself. Emotionally healthy people who want to be married make marriage work. They could pray to a rock, call it whatever they want, and get the same results. As christ said in the bible to all those who were looking outward for the kingdom of heaven, It exists in you. There's nothing 'out there' to find. If an already healthy person turns to a higher power it will help the marriage because out of their emotions they create the boundaries of their religion. Unhealthy people are doomed by religion, not because religion doomed them but because their unhealthy emotions create the religion and their god. The parameters of their religion will necessarily be unhealthy because they are unhealthy and it will add to the dysfunction of the marriage. There's nothing 'out there' that's going to help, which is a huge mistake so many emotionally unhealthy individuals make.


dont have time now. church (religion?) calls; pressed 4 time :lol:

just a bookmark here to come back fer later response. ciao 4 now.


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## SimplyAmorous

I am with Blanca here. We all have a story to tell, I am sure FAITH has helped many many many marraiges. NO doubt. If they were living selfishly before , this could lead them down a path of restoration. But it is not always this way. Religion never helped my marriage. It may have kept me being a "good girl" in most respects before Marraige, but I found my beliefs in striving to attain to other christians ideals - caused me to (at times) badger my husband to read his Bible, felt he didn't pray enough, dragging him to church all the time when he had more Fruits of the Spirit than I ever did -(& he was the Unbeliever). 

Then I struggled with our sex lives -cause I felt everything was "dirty" -like Oral, dressing like a stripper for your husband, being seductive, always felt I had to "put the flesh down", becaue of all the sermons we heard over the years pounded into me/us. And this hindered us very much, husband suffered for many years to some degree becaue of my hangups. 

Since I have gotten away from this - I can not even express how much better and closer we have become. I feel more of a loving emotional connection , we have a better understanding of each other, He would never want to go back there. Neither would I. 

These things are not God's fault , likely the overzealous teachings of the Church where we attended - where we were called sinful for enjoying anything of this world. 

This by no means - is saying I do not have much respect for many many many scriptures, many of Jesus teachings on love, & how to conduct one's life, relationships & in marriage. I DO! But these same Truths can be found many in places in this world.

This is something I understand now and have an appreciation for.


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## cb45

another reason i submitted this idea as a thread was to see how many mature or "other"
un-typical views/understanding there were/are out there
wherever/whoever u are.

i'm guessing tho' they(we?) only make up less than 5% of believers in Yeshua Ha'Mashiach, Son of God/Son of Man.

for havent seen/read anything yet outside mainstream lines of
Christian thought/teachings since this "line" was cast.

Selah.

:sleeping:


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## weR2

Blanca and SimplyAmorous,
I am in total agreement with you both. It appears to me, you have chosen to follow the real teachings of Christ. He led an interesting life, and if one thinks about it, he can see that Christ realized that spirituality and the search for "truth" was personal. The proof of this was that, if he really wanted the church to get things correct, he would have written it down and left messages behind and not left it for someone else to do. However, he left nothing behind except another person's interpretation of what he said and did. (One instance that we know of he wrote in the dust/dirt then erased it before the apostles could see it.)

Before Christ went out "into the world", he had mastered the material and physical world/life. Then while he was with the apostles, He never made rules about marriage, politics, morals, sex, etc. He was solely about the kingdom of God! It was he that influenced the Jews to incorporate women into the church, and because of that he was frowned upon. (i.e. Mary Magdalene and others that went to his grave after he was crucified)

Since the times of Christ, mankind has searched for their personal path toward the "truth". This has led us from Judaism to Catholicism, Lutherans, Baptists, Pentecostals, ets etc etc. And within each of these "new " churches, we find congregations that are entirely different from their "leader". Here we see spiritual growth, each seeking his own "comfort" church. One can only imagine what spirituality will be like in the near future, how much it will change in the next 20 years. Look at how it has evolved in the last 100 years.

On this site, we all compare and share experiences, thoughts, and ideas. With this sharing, we are essentially molding the future of marriage. I guess you might say that we are making amendable "rules", relative to the institution of marriage. We are evolving, mastering the material world, so that we can "flow" into the spiritual world. I mean, if we cannot master (understand and be successful) in the material world in which we live and breathe, then how can we even think that we can understand spirituality?


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## Parrothead

weR2 said:


> Blanca and SimplyAmorous,
> I am in total agreement with you both. It appears to me, you have chosen to follow the real teachings of Christ. He led an interesting life, and if one thinks about it, he can see that Christ realized that spirituality and the search for "truth" was personal. The proof of this was that, if he really wanted the church to get things correct, he would have written it down and left messages behind and not left it for someone else to do. However, he left nothing behind except another person's interpretation of what he said and did. (One instance that we know of he wrote in the dust/dirt then erased it before the apostles could see it.)
> 
> Before Christ went out "into the world", he had mastered the material and physical world/life. Then while he was with the apostles, He never made rules about marriage, politics, morals, sex, etc. He was solely about the kingdom of God! It was he that influenced the Jews to incorporate women into the church, and because of that he was frowned upon. (i.e. Mary Magdalene and others that went to his grave after he was crucified)
> 
> Since the times of Christ, mankind has searched for their personal path toward the "truth". This has led us from Judaism to Catholicism, Lutherans, Baptists, Pentecostals, ets etc etc. And within each of these "new " churches, we find congregations that are entirely different from their "leader". Here we see spiritual growth, each seeking his own "comfort" church. One can only imagine what spirituality will be like in the near future, how much it will change in the next 20 years. Look at how it has evolved in the last 100 years.
> 
> On this site, we all compare and share experiences, thoughts, and ideas. With this sharing, we are essentially molding the future of marriage. I guess you might say that we are making amendable "rules", relative to the institution of marriage. We are evolving, mastering the material world, so that we can "flow" into the spiritual world. I mean, if we cannot master (understand and be successful) in the material world in which we live and breathe, then how can we even think that we can understand spirituality?


*Sigh*

Christ didn't write anything down - he didn't have to, what he taught was from the OT. Don't believe me? Try reading the NT and see. After all, what else would he teach from, being a nice Jewish boy and a Rabbi to boot? 

The reason, of course, that you have different churches and beliefs is because everybody thinks they are a prophet. I daresay that most of the people I have met who call themselves "Protestant" don't even know what makes them Protestants. But they all think they have the ability to interpret scripture. 

So Christ never made rules about morals, marriage, politics, or sex, eh?

How about this?



> For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
> 
> 
> “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
> 
> “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
> 
> “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
> 
> “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
> 
> “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
> 
> “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
> 
> “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
> 
> “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor_ and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. _


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## weR2

Parrothead said:


> *Sigh*
> 
> Christ didn't write anything down - he didn't have to, what he taught was from the OT. Don't believe me? Try reading the NT and see. After all, what else would he teach from, being a nice Jewish boy and a Rabbi to boot?
> 
> The reason, of course, that you have different churches and beliefs is because everybody thinks they are a prophet. I daresay that most of the people I have met who call themselves "Protestant" don't even know what makes them Protestants. But they all think they have the ability to interpret scripture.
> 
> So Christ never made rules about morals, marriage, politics, or sex, eh?
> 
> How about this?


You confuse me Parrothead. You replied to a post relative to spirituality, wherein you clarified that Jews, Islams, Muslims, etc are not spiritual, that spirituality encompasses Christians solely. With your previous clarifacation can we logically assume that you are stating that because Christ was a Jew, that he was not spiritual?

Another confusing statement for me is your statement that new churches are formed because "everybody thinks that they are a prophet". Is the leader of your church a prophet? Is the Pope a prophet? Who is worthy enough to make the claim as to who is a prophet or not a prophet? I KNOW THAT I AM NOT, NOR WILL I CALL ANYONE A "FOOL" FOR FOLLOWING THEIR SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH. I am not God to judge whether one has interpretted HIS word properly or not. I do believe however, that it is each our own personal freedom to seek the TRUTH in our manner and mental capability.

Relative to the verses/quotes that you cited, I am sorry, but I did not see where rules were NEWLY made by Christ, personally I see them as logical clarifications as to who can judge who, and for what, AND possible repurcussions at that time. HOWEVER, I do see that you have quoted from Matthew chapter 5 (maybe the Int Version Bible), in doing so, I think that it is important to include the previous verses 17, 18, 19 leading up to the ones that you cited (17 is most important):

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 

19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Thank you for the response Parrothead, it is responses like these that help me to "surpass the righteousness of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law". (read verse 20)


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## Parrothead

weR2 said:


> You confuse me Parrothead. You replied to a post relative to spirituality, wherein you clarified that Jews, Islams, Muslims, etc are not spiritual, that spirituality encompasses Christians solely.


That is not what I said at all. What I said was that my comments about "the church" encompassed the Christian Church only. If I am not mistaken, Jews and Muslims call their meeting places something else, and are not part of the Christian church anyway.

By the way, "Islam" is the religion, "Muslims" are what it's practitioners are called. 

Besides, as I pointed out at the time, from a Christian context, "spirituality" means following the leading of the Holy Spirit, not nebulous sloganeering.



> With your previous clarifacation can we logically assume that you are stating that because Christ was a Jew, that he was not spiritual?


No, that's not what I said. What I was saying was that he was a Jew. If you understand Jewish spirituality, by all means, enlighten us. 



> Another confusing statement for me is your statement that new churches are formed because "everybody thinks that they are a prophet".


I am speaking specifically here about 1800's pseudo-Protestantism and cults, John Darby adherents and totally non-Christian cults masquerading as Christianity. These are the beliefs that seem to be promulgated in popular culture, not historic Christianity.



> Is the leader of your church a prophet?


No, but then again, he doesn't think he is. He gives the truth as the historic church taught it, not spirituality according to Oprah. 



> Is the Pope a prophet? Who is worthy enough to make the claim as to who is a prophet or not a prophet?


People who have studied to show themselves approved. In fact, they have been educated to recognize a false one when they see one.



> I KNOW THAT I AM NOT, NOR WILL I CALL ANYONE A "FOOL" FOR FOLLOWING THEIR SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH.


Then why do you get offended when someone makes a truth claim that does not agree with your worldview?




> I am not God to judge whether one has interpretted HIS word properly or not. I do believe however, that it is each our own personal freedom to seek the TRUTH in our manner and mental capability.


They do indeed, but not all arrive at the truth. You seem to think that even an inaccurate statement is valid, a position I disagree with. 



> Relative to the verses/quotes that you cited, I am sorry, but I did not see where rules were NEWLY made by Christ


His amplification of what it means to commit adultery was probably what people are ONLY NOW calling an "EA". Years ago I couldn't convince anybody of the very truth Christ is proclaiming. 



> personally I see them as logical clarifications as to who can judge who, and for what, AND possible repurcussions at that time.


Jesus is expounding on Jewish law, not moral relativism. He is and will be the judge. No "repurcussions" will be visited on those who speak justly and truthfully. 



> Thank you for the response Parrothead, it is responses like these that help me to "surpass the righteousness of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law". (read verse 20)


Well, that's your opinion. I am just asking questions and questioning answers. You can expect that if you re going to expound on the "real teachings of Christ".


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## cb45

getting back to the thread "fellows,"

a major curiousity is word studying what Jesus himself said 
re: marriage in the NT. pls do so and post back yer impressions
(0r better still, let the H>S teach/tell ya.


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## Parrothead

cb45 said:


> getting back to the thread "fellows,"
> 
> a major curiousity is word studying what Jesus himself said
> re: marriage in the NT. pls do so and post back yer impressions
> (0r better still, let the H>S teach/tell ya.


Hard to add to what Riverside said, his theology was good and it was clearly presented.


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## Vanguard

I'm a pastor, and I agree with everything you have said, Riverside. Unfortunately, my marriage has fallen apart in the past month. Actually it was falling apart before that, unbeknownst to me.


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## Riverside MFT

WhiteMousse said:


> I'm a pastor, and I agree with everything you have said, Riverside. Unfortunately, my marriage has fallen apart in the past month. Actually it was falling apart before that, unbeknownst to me.


I am so sorry to hear about that.


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## cb45

LucyLate said:


> My husband and I both put god first in our lives, but we still seem to be butting our heads against a brick wall. We fight 30% of the time and another 50% he is ignoring me.
> 
> Can prayer solve our problems?
> 
> Life & Love, so far


can "pride" esculate our problems? this is most likely yer problem. if God is truly 1st
in yer lives, then u should do better at working things out.

somethin' dont add up here.......:scratchhead:


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## weR2

LucyLate said:


> My husband and I both put god first in our lives, but we still seem to be butting our heads against a brick wall. We fight 30% of the time and another 50% he is ignoring me.
> 
> Can prayer solve our problems?
> 
> Life & Love, so far



I have found that prayer made me "stronger", but, because my exes were "not on the same page", there was only my desire to continue the marital relationship. I suppose that I had hoped for God to intervene and force them to stay married to me, but after careful thought and reasoning, I decided that God could not take away their free will of deciding their own path.

I would say that prayer from both parties with sincere intent will have positive results.


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## omega

I'm new to TAM and I'm not sure if this sub-forum is only open to Christians or religious/spiritual people, or if it's also open to views from "outsiders." So please forgive me if I'm not welcome here - and also ... I am really NOT wishing to offend ANYONE with my post. 

I would not normally post on a thread like this but part of FaithHopeLove's post really made me want to. S/he said: 


> I completely believe a marriage includes 3 people: God, a husband, and a wife. Anything other situation can't possibly be a marriage.


My husband and I are what most people would call atheists - we don't believe in the existence of gods, so I guess to you (sg or pl I'm not sure) we don't have a marriage. However, to us, our marriage is our life and our world. We don't have a "Christian marriage" in many ways (because we don't involve religious aspects, and because we are childfree by choice) but we do in some other ways, at least from what I've read - the dynamic between us does seem to fit in with what I've read Christians talking about, just without all the religious aspects.

How can I put it in a way a religious person could understand... My husband IS my god. Does that make sense? I hope so, I don't know to explain it. We are a system of two, not three, and it works for us. Our relationship has always been like this since we first fell in love and we approach marriage as a way of organizing our selves and our lives. 

I have many friends who are Christians, and again, not wishing to offend, but sometimes I have felt a tinge of sadness talking to them about marriage. I have to remind myself that their way is what is fulfilling to them. A very close Christian friend of mine, who is the mother of 4 and a survivor of marital infidelity (her husband had affairs but she forgave him) told me - when I asked her WHY she married her husband - "Because of his love for Christ." It broke my heart. What about his love and need for YOU? Do you not count in this relationship? Her choice to forgive his infidelity was based on her Christian values - which I am impressed by, as infidelity is I'm sure devastating - but not based on any change in his behavior. He has a problem with other women... she has a forgiving heart... and it goes around and around. They pray about it and she feels led to forgive and he feels led to do it again, or...? The explanations are so empty-sounding. I know it's their marriage, maybe she likes that her husband has his way with other women or whatever, I'm not sure, but it just breaks my heart when she says that her husband is the one for HER because of his love for someone ELSE (Christ).

We don't want, need, or endure a third person in our relationship. We're monogamous in the true (to us) sense of the word: the monogamous nature of our marriage is completely erotic to us. The introduction of a third - be it lover, deity, or ___ - turns the stomach. I don't want to split my devotion to my husband by devoting myself to anyone or anything else. People ask us all the time why we don't have children (we both work in child-related fields so I suppose it's natural) and the only true answer (although we usually lie about it) is "no one else can fit into our marriage." We are a relationship of two, not a flat triangle, but a full sphere. 

I hope this hasn't offended anyone - like many atheists, I have great respect for those who have chosen a spiritual path and sometimes worry that what I say will upset someone - but I can't NOT respond to the idea that a marriage of two is somehow not a "real" marriage.


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## SimplyAmorous

Omega, I can relate to your post very much. Even when I was a christian (or thought I was) I know in my heart I always put my husband, even my kids before God, I thought more about them, I mean, they were my life, I used to accually feel GUILTY cause I felt I was not putting God 1st. It was just mind boggling to me, I spent so many years grapping all of that, it was a colossal waste of my time. This is not God's fault but how I was interpretting things I was taught in the church. 

I must say though, the way your Christian friend is handing her husband is NOT really biblical, she is choosing to forgive without conseqences. SHe has every right to divorce him & stand strong in that. Some take FORGIVESS completely too far, feeling others can step on their boundaries time & time again relentlessly- and we must forgive their actions due to scriptures like this


> Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times


Great book , written by Christians, that I absolutely adore about not allowing others (friends, family, spouses) to overstep their boundaries >> Amazon.com: Boundaries: When to Say YES, When to Say NO, To Take Control of Your Life (9780310585909): Henry Cloud, John Townsend: Books


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## omega

SimplyAmorous, I'm totally unreligious so forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't that from the Gospel of Matthew? I love that quote. I actually used it as the opener to a short story I wrote once. I never saw it as "you should forgive everything" but as forgiveness is a gift of love if you truly feel it.

I talk to my friend about marriage all the time and it's one of our favorite topics because our views ARE so different. She knows how I feel and I do think to a certain extent that she is proud of her ability to forgive, I suppose that's not super Christian either, I think some of it is and some of it is just the individual's personality. She gets a lot of strength from prayer and I think as a mother of 4 (one with special needs) plus a straying husband, she needs that. 

I have often wondered if she didn't have four children that required her to stay home (she home schools them) if she would still be with him. I can't really speculate too much on that but I do wonder.


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## SimplyAmorous

Matt 18:21-23 . I think is great that you have a christian friend who can still be your friend without judgement. When I have shared my loss of belief, with a few, they have wanted to DAMN me, they spent more time trying to correct me than understand me. Not sure why this took me by surrpise. 

But I still have a nice handful of trusty good christian friends who love me for ME, not what I believe but how I live & treat them. They have no desire to "dust off their feet". Love them for that! 

I like to be REAL with people, It is always entertaining to see who the judgers are. 

I have a friend very very similar to yours, her faith keeps her married - and I believe HAPPY in the midst of all of her marital pain. Her husband IS a christian-or claims to be. He enforces the scriptures well about her being in submission to him (he abuses them), he ignores her presence-even in front of friends, when she talks to him he will not even look up at her face, he doesn't answer her. The man is clearly angry. 

But she does remain happy -amazingly- at least when she is away from him! She writes little songs about Jesus all the time, she sings them to people, she can be a breathe of fresh air to many -even though her life is the most troubled of them all. She knows when she is around ME, she can let it all out though, I have seen her at her worst. 

It is sad in a way. I am not really sure it she stays more because of her faith or more because she does not trust what HE may do if she leaves him (meaning take the kids far far away).

There are many heartbreaking situations out there. Even for many in the faith.


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## omega

SimplyAmorous said:


> When I have shared my loss of belief, with a few, they have wanted to DAMN me, they spent more time trying to correct me than understand me. Not sure why this took me by surrpise.


I think I know where you're coming from on this one. When I was in college, a member of my immediate family died in a sudden and violent way - it was absolutely devastating. The DAY she died, a boy on my college dorm floor heard about it and came to give me condolences as I was trying to figure out how to stuff a shirt into a bag so I could go home. He said: "Was she a member of a saving religion?" I said, "No, she was Jewish." He said: "Oh. She's in Hell." Not, "according to my religion, she would go to Hell" or "she's probably going to Hell" or any number of other ALMOST as obscene comments. It was just an observation. Like "that squirrel is brown." It was almost stunning in its sheer heartlessness and arrogance. I don't even have anything more to say on it, it's hard to even comment on! But truly people can be blinded by their faith and say things that they would never say otherwise (I hope!).

I'm not a communist or anything but I do understand the notion behind "religion is the opiate of the masses." It really does seem to soothe the pain of not knowing and not understanding. As a person without faith I have often been a little jealous of those whose faith carries them through hard times - like your friend writing her happy songs. The pain is still there but it gets you through the night. Obviously this is NOT the only benefit of living a spiritual lifestyle so please no one be offended - but I do see how people derive comfort from it and I know that if I ever had become religious, it would have been this promise of comfort that would have drawn me to it - not the promises of answers and truth or the holy books or even the afterlife. Just the idea that there was a reason and a structure and if my husband is cheating on me it is because God is testing my faith and my devotion to him (okay, I'm not sure she takes it this far).


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## Riverside MFT

omega said:


> We are a system of two, not three, and it works for us. Our relationship has always been like this since we first fell in love and we approach marriage as a way of organizing our selves and our lives.


Thank you for posting. I think that incorporating different perspectives into our lives can be beneficial for our marriages. Can I say that instead of being a system of two, those married should strive for a system of one? Now whether that "oneness" involves three people (God, wife, husband) or two (husband and wife) is up to the couple. 

Now, by being one I do not mean that the individual is completely squashed out, but the people involved in that marriage strive for unity, they strive toward joint goals, they recognize that they can progress farther by being one than by being two (or three) individuals. Omega, to me it sounds like you are striving to be one with your husband. Thanks so much for posting on this thread.


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## weR2

omega said:


> I think I know where you're coming from on this one. When I was in college, a member of my immediate family died in a sudden and violent way - it was absolutely devastating. The DAY she died, a boy on my college dorm floor heard about it and came to give me condolences as I was trying to figure out how to stuff a shirt into a bag so I could go home. He said: "Was she a member of a saving religion?" I said, "No, she was Jewish." He said: "Oh. She's in Hell." Not, "according to my religion, she would go to Hell" or "she's probably going to Hell" or any number of other ALMOST as obscene comments. It was just an observation. Like "that squirrel is brown." It was almost stunning in its sheer heartlessness and arrogance. I don't even have anything more to say on it, it's hard to even comment on! But truly people can be blinded by their faith and say things that they would never say otherwise (I hope!).
> 
> I'm not a communist or anything but I do understand the notion behind "religion is the opiate of the masses." It really does seem to soothe the pain of not knowing and not understanding. As a person without faith I have often been a little jealous of those whose faith carries them through hard times - like your friend writing her happy songs. The pain is still there but it gets you through the night. Obviously this is NOT the only benefit of living a spiritual lifestyle so please no one be offended - but I do see how people derive comfort from it and I know that if I ever had become religious, it would have been this promise of comfort that would have drawn me to it - not the promises of answers and truth or the holy books or even the afterlife. Just the idea that there was a reason and a structure and if my husband is cheating on me it is because God is testing my faith and my devotion to him (okay, I'm not sure she takes it this far).


You have made some interesting observations here, observations that I too have made over the years. It seems that you could be a younger couple that might represent the thoughts of the "younger generations". Spirituality continues to evolve, especially now that our material world seems to be slowing because of the economy. I predict that people will now begin to discover their own thoughts and interpretations of their own personal spirituality, and their relation to God.

It is solely of my opinion, that spirituality is personal. Deciphering what each denomination demands, the rules that are imposed upon us, the judgements that they make upon our lives, the paths that they tell us we must "walk", etc etc, seem to be detrimental to the growth of the free will personality. We each want the free will to pick and choose as we want, but it sometimes seems that we spend more time attempting to "satisfy" the peers of the congregation/church, thereby setting aside our own personal spiritual quest, our own personal attempt to understand the Supreme Being.

I suppose that we can liken it to the education system, wherein the curriculum is chosen by the state or private school, then we are taught that and only that, as if that is the only fact. Some can "read between the lines", but others can only take it for exactly as it is worded, often times misled by the title or headline.

Please do not be discouraged, PERHAPS you are spiritual. Could it be that you just do not see God as a long-bearded man that sits up above poofing orders and raising havoc? Could it be that you claim to be atheist just because you do not want to be associated with a particular denomination or group? I remember the parable of the Good Samaritan, where a Rabbi passed someone in need, then a Samaritan (considered unholy by the rabbi) helped the needy person. Jesus alluded that the Samaritan was "better" in God's eyes.

I guess that what I am saying here is that it seems to me that you are conscious of someone or something "higher" than humanity, after all you did come to a spiritual site even if it was just for curiosity. I have noticed with many of my close friends, parents, other family members, that as they get closer to their time for leaving this world, they seemingly begin to re-evaluate their spirituality. Some 25 yrs ago, I personally conjectured that if we were to take ALL of the "things" in common from ALL of the religions around the world, we would probably be closer to discovery, and we would certainly be better understanding.

I cannot help but wonder, if we cannot "weather the storm" with a SO in this world in which we live and breathe, can we "weather the storm" in heaven or another "mansion world" that we are unfamiliar with? I cannot rule out the need for us to go to that "mansion world" with our opposite, or maybe with the success of our opposite, to travel through the next world/s as a complete of the whole, on way to the Supreme. God is in everything, and everything has an opposite. Each atom has a proton and neutron (opposites), information on this computer is I and O (opposites), man and woman (opposites). Without a proton or electron, the atom is not an atom, without the I or O the information does not exist, without a man or woman .....?


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## omega

Brian, I do love the idea of unity and oneness as a goal or "center" and I also love the idea of two-ness and duality (I think duality, like good/bad, male/female, light/dark, day/night, winter/summer, up/down, etc) - two things that are different but go together, is hard-wired into people as an organizational system, a way of thinking about the world. 

In Ancient Greek (sorry to get all nerdy on you) they actually had three grammatical "numbers" for talking about things: singular (one thing), plural (many things), but also "dual" (two things that are a set and go together). So you could express "1 eye", "a pair of eyes," or "many eyes," each with a single, but different, word. I love the idea of a pair of two that are different but just go together, so much so that they have their own grammatical category in language.

One of the things I really like to read about in Christian marriage is the idea of complement, that a husband and wife are not the same, and treating them as if they are leads to conflict, but by putting them together and honoring their differences, you get a good whole. That's a way of combining one-ness and two-ness that I really like.

I think that goes back to my image of a sphere.

As long as I'm being dorky, Plato writes about how people used to be before the gods punished them: people were originally designed in pairs. Each couple of lovers was a single body, made of two persons, that was basically a round sphere that rolled around (the description is kind of funny). Plato's idea is that now, since the gods have split us apart from our natural mate, we spend our whole lives searching for our literal "other half," and then once we find them, we spend the rest of our lives trying to make that sphere stick together. [Interestingly, Plato's round people included heterosexual couples, male homosexual couples, and female homosexual couples.]

I love thinking about all this stuff... I wonder, does the "one-ness" model work for the God-husband-wife triangle? Or is it more of a unity-trinity dichotomy (haha). The philosophical side of marriage is amazing and doesn't get discussed enough in my opinion.


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## Riverside MFT

omega said:


> I love thinking about all this stuff... I wonder, does the "one-ness" model work for the God-husband-wife triangle? Or is it more of a unity-trinity dichotomy (haha). The philosophical side of marriage is amazing and doesn't get discussed enough in my opinion.


Some good points Omega. To continue the philosophy of oneness in marriage with God, I think back to the original triangle. As husband and wife continually get closer to God, they also draw closer to each other. As this process keeps happening it will eventually look like there is no triangle at all to the naked eye. But look closely and you will find that there are three separate entities in that relationship.

Another way to look at it is with three strands of twine that are being woven together to form a rope. From far away, that rope looks like a single item, but get closer and you will recognize the individual parts of that rope. Again, the parts of that rope are much stronger than even the combined strength of each part individually.


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## omega

weR2 (love the name!) - I think my thinking does have a little bit of that "young" and "contra" to it - I'm 30 so definitely not old, but also my parents are not religious either. That distance from religion allowed me to develop a very non-combative atheist worldview: I didn't have to "reject" religion, so I don't have any negative feelings about it. I just didn't have to "adopt" it either. The same way that a friend of mine has Catholic parents, and he turned out to be Catholic and not Muslim, I have atheist parents and I turned out to be atheist and not Lutheran. I have a lot of respect for spiritual people. I don't think I am one - I don't have belief although I have respect - even awe at times - and certainly curiosity and fascination. I love learning about religions although for some reason it's in one ear and out the other, I can never retain any of it!  I have many religious friends (not just the ones who check the box but the ones who actually practice) and I find that I don't really have negative things to say about it. 

However when it comes to marriage, I find myself changing my answers a little bit. I do feel spiritual about it - in the sense that a person who doesn't believe in god can. 

As long as I'm on a roll with the Greek stuff, might as well go for the trifecta: Greek mythology, which is a mess with no holy books, but anyway has some sort of a traditional system, generally holds that there was an initial divinity or godly "thing" in the universe, and it calls that initial divinity Erotic Love. The next gods after that to come into being are created out of this Erotic Love. I think my spiritual feelings about marriage are kind of in that sphere: I don't think there is a deity but I think erotic love is something divine. There is something really supernatural in the most literal sense about the way 1 + 1 = more than 2. That is something that's always awed me. 

I'm still human though - the two or three times I feared for my or my husband's life, you bet I was praying. Not because I believed but just in case I was wrong, you do what you've got to do. They say there are no atheists in foxholes. I disagree: I think one of the basic ideas behind atheism is that we are people who have had basic civilization for a few thousand years, members of a species that's been around for a hundred thousand years, living on a planet that's been around for billions of years. (I could be off on some of those.) It's a little much to believe that in those short 2-3 thousand years, we've got it all figured out. Thus, we don't buy it. But if it's my husband's life on the line, I'm certainly not going to get all righteous about it. I would do ANYTHING - don't care what - it certainly can't hurt. But it doesn't make me any less of an atheist. It's just a natural human impulse. The same one that made prehistoric peoples pray for rain and all that. All very instinctual and normal and beautiful.


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## weR2

omega said:


> weR2 (love the name!) - I think my thinking does have a little bit of that "young" and "contra" to it - I'm 30 so definitely not old, but also my parents are not religious either. That distance from religion allowed me to develop a very non-combative atheist worldview: I didn't have to "reject" religion, so I don't have any negative feelings about it. I just didn't have to "adopt" it either. The same way that a friend of mine has Catholic parents, and he turned out to be Catholic and not Muslim, I have atheist parents and I turned out to be atheist and not Lutheran. I have a lot of respect for spiritual people. I don't think I am one - I don't have belief although I have respect - even awe at times - and certainly curiosity and fascination. I love learning about religions although for some reason it's in one ear and out the other, I can never retain any of it!  I have many religious friends (not just the ones who check the box but the ones who actually practice) and I find that I don't really have negative things to say about it.
> 
> However when it comes to marriage, I find myself changing my answers a little bit. I do feel spiritual about it - in the sense that a person who doesn't believe in god can.
> 
> As long as I'm on a roll with the Greek stuff, might as well go for the trifecta: Greek mythology, which is a mess with no holy books, but anyway has some sort of a traditional system, generally holds that there was an initial divinity or godly "thing" in the universe, and it calls that initial divinity Erotic Love. The next gods after that to come into being are created out of this Erotic Love. I think my spiritual feelings about marriage are kind of in that sphere: I don't think there is a deity but I think erotic love is something divine. There is something really supernatural in the most literal sense about the way 1 + 1 = more than 2. That is something that's always awed me.
> 
> I'm still human though - the two or three times I feared for my or my husband's life, you bet I was praying. Not because I believed but just in case I was wrong, you do what you've got to do. They say there are no atheists in foxholes. I disagree: I think one of the basic ideas behind atheism is that we are people who have had basic civilization for a few thousand years, members of a species that's been around for a hundred thousand years, living on a planet that's been around for billions of years. (I could be off on some of those.) It's a little much to believe that in those short 2-3 thousand years, we've got it all figured out. Thus, we don't buy it. But if it's my husband's life on the line, I'm certainly not going to get all righteous about it. I would do ANYTHING - don't care what - it certainly can't hurt. But it doesn't make me any less of an atheist. It's just a natural human impulse. The same one that made prehistoric peoples pray for rain and all that. All very instinctual and normal and beautiful.


I like your thinking pattern, I too ponder/ed as you are now. As a follower of Christ's parables that have been left to us, combined with the religious beliefs before his time, I am at a point where I have made my own basic understanding of spirituality and the basic history of where we are "today". It can be said that our civilization was "cut off" after the Lucifer rebellion (this is where the Catholics came up with the idea of Purgatory), if that is so, then could it be that mankind was left to it's own religious evolution during that time???? With that then in mind, is it possible that humans were simply trying to maintain their basic spirituality without "universal help"????? Is it possible that that is why the concept of "gods" appeared, to satisfy the human thirst by putting a "face" behind the word, as we do even nowadays????

It is apparent to me, in the interpretation of the New Testament, that is was after the death of Christ and with the arrival of the holy Spirit that the concept of the trinity (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit) was actually realized, but not by all religious factions (some are still waiting). The Greeks of old seemed to maintain many of the spiritual philosophies, the Hebrews seemed to maintain the rituals. Could it be that the eastern religions maintained more of the "afterlife" expectations???? Could it be that Christianity's biggest hurdle to "tame the masses" is it's forcefulness of attempting to "push" their beliefs onto others, while trying to show people the "way"???? If I were to condemn you and your thoughts right now, wouldn't you also just plainly disregard me????

There are many things that the ancients were aware of, things that we had forgotten as we continued to evolve physically and mentally in our material realm. But, we are now seeing that many are going back to the "roots", finding herbal medicines, yoga, meditation, etc etc. While visiting the Egyptian pyramids a few years ago (without a guide to confuse my thoughts), I realized even more how humans seemed to go "backwards" until the time of Christ's bestowal here on earth and the subsequent arrival of the Holy Spirit. 

When I encounter people that are out there searching for a new/modern "meaning", I am anxious to share my thoughts, anxious to have others to share the "narrow path" with.


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## weR2

My wife and I tried not influence our children on their religious beliefs, even though we were both raised Catholic. When one of our daughters was about 13 yrs old, she decided to become atheist because of how most of the self-proclaimed Christians at her school treated her and her brothers, because they did not go to their church or believe exactly as they had been programmed. And now at the age of 23, she claims to be agnostic, but is an extremely honest person and loving and kind to anyone that needs her help.


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## RandomDude

I've seen a ton of churchies, even my wife once -> twisting the word to their benefit. Myself, I'm still a "nature-loving" "fire-dancing" "tree-hugging" "pagan-barbarian" however. 

Before marriage and our difficult times though, my wife was very inspirational christian, very tolerant and open-minded too. She literally radiated like an angel, and made me cross-pagan cross-christian once...

I really miss those times, she was really at her best. I don't know how everything changed. Heck, I think I should make a thread on the good days, she was the type of christian even a pagan like me can respect and admire enough to be semi-converted.

EDIT: Bah nevermind the other thread, too long, not going to go into it...

Ne ways, for my wife once it was very simple, 1 Corinthians 3:16... "God is love", and that thing in proverbs describing love, "love is patient and kind, etc etc". It soon dawned on me that she did not worship and follow just a man or prophet, but the very essense and spirit of what love is; selflessness. Selflessness, forgiveness, respect, compassion, all the positive traits that makes the world better.

I mostly have a bad relationship with Christians as many are not tolerant of my own spiritual beliefs, but she was different, she backed off from all the religious sides of Christianity and embraced only the message. She never judged me at all, and never twisted the word to her own selfish benefit.

When reading the OP, it makes me think of how drawing close to God can be beneficial for couples even if one doesn't believe in Christianity or such; as the principles put forth in the bible, if one understands the message of love and forgiveness, freeing from guilt, etc etc -> can definitely strengthen any marriage.


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## wild_irish_rose

I agree with the original post very much. My parents' marriage was very much a Christian marriage when I was a kid, but my dad has backslidden badly while my mother has stayed on track, and their marriage has definitely gone down hill because of it.

In my case, I was an unbeliever married to an unbeliever. When I became a believer, my husband became verbally abusive to me. I don't know if it's part of the reason he decided he didn't want to be with me or not but it wouldn't surprise me at all. He's not just someone who doesn't believe in God, he HATES anything to do with established religions. In another time, another place, he'd be one of the ones out there actively persecuting Christians.


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## Riverside MFT

wild_irish_rose said:


> I agree with the original post very much. My parents' marriage was very much a Christian marriage when I was a kid, but my dad has backslidden badly while my mother has stayed on track, and their marriage has definitely gone down hill because of it.
> 
> In my case, I was an unbeliever married to an unbeliever. When I became a believer, my husband became verbally abusive to me. I don't know if it's part of the reason he decided he didn't want to be with me or not but it wouldn't surprise me at all. He's not just someone who doesn't believe in God, he HATES anything to do with established religions. In another time, another place, he'd be one of the ones out there actively persecuting Christians.


Thank you wild irish rose. Both my wife and I belong to the same religion and both of us consider ourselves devout followers of that religion. I do believe there is a difference between organized religion and overall spirituality (I recognize I am getting into semantics, but let me explain).

I originally mentioned that a husband and wife will get closer to each other by getting closer to God, not necessarily getting stronger in their chosen faith. It is possible (and I have seen it in my own church) where one person will be completely dedicated to their religion even at the expense of their marriage. They will suround themselves with activities and responsibilities from this religion and neglect their relationship with their spouse.

I believe that God is loving, caring, wise, merciful, just, and charitable (along with many other qualities). As we get closer to God, we begin to develop these attributes more readily. We become more loving, caring, wise, etc. Each person must figure out how they can individually draw closer to God (for those who don't believe in God, it is about working to become a better person). I believe individuals and couples can draw closer to God by learning more about him in Holy Writings or scriptures, prayer, and by serving others. Each person must figure what is best for them in drawing towards God (or Allah, or in just becoming a better person).


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