# boyfriend's inaction on divorce process



## lynn11374

*boyfriend's inaction on divorce process - update!*

Hi Everyone. So I've been dating a man for about a year and half, who is separated from his wife. I was separated as well when we met, and finalized my divorce in December. We moved in together in November with the expectation that he will be moving forward with the divorce, and I relocated to the area he lived in so he could be close to his job, he is a business owner. everything is great in our relationship. He is very kind and loving towards me, goes above and beyond to make me happy, and we have a lot in common. He has integrated me into his life, family and friends. I am very happy with everything except for the fact that he hasn't filed for divorce yet.

His wife does not want a divorce. Every time he tries to talk to her about dividing up assets etc.., she becomes hysterical, saying she will instead wait for him to come back to her. He assures her he is not coming back, but says all she has in her life is the hope they can still work things out. They do not have kids. He has been waiting for her to come around and accept reality so they can move forward with filing but it's just not happening. I told him to just file, but he said he'd rather do this amicably and he is willing to give her whatever she wants in the divorce. He doesn't want to deal with lawyers and courts, and wants to make sure she is emotionally ok with everything. He has been encouraging her to start dating other people so she can move on, but she says absolutely not, she is waiting for him to come home.

He is now saying he wants to buy a house with me. I don't know how that would work since he is still financially and legally linked to her. I don't know how to approach the conversation because it always ends up in a fight. Any advice?


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## chillymorn69

I don't care what he says ...He don't want to lose his business or financial losses.


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## twoofus

From what I've read, I'd say your boyfriend is a decent person and you should respect him for it. Don't force him to be mean to his wife because the meanness may not go away from his character afterwards when he marries you.


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## lynn11374

chillymorn69 said:


> I don't care what he says ...He don't want to lose his business or financial losses.


Yes, he has admitted the business assets and financial loss is a factor but primarily he wants to move forward with things without being a d*ck about it.


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## chillymorn69

lynn11374 said:


> Yes, he has admitted the business assets and financial loss is a factor but primarily he wants to move forward with things without being a d*ck about it.


the longer he wait the more hes going to lose. as his business grows she will get more.

he needs to #@!& or get off the pot.

as long as your ok with him stringing you along until the sun moon and stars line up which will most likely be never then your good.


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## Blondilocks

Advice? Stop living with a married man.


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## Married but Happy

My divorce took 7 years. My current wife and I lived together and bought two houses together during that time. My ex was greedy, and despite making her some fabulous offers, she turned them down. Eventually, she got far less than any of my original offers, and eventually she just wanted it over. I'd have been happy to get it over much sooner, but it was better to wait out her craziness.


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## lynn11374

Married but Happy said:


> My divorce took 7 years. My current wife and I lived together and bought two houses together during that time. My ex was greedy, and despite making her some fabulous offers, she turned them down. Eventually, she got far less than any of my original offers, and eventually she just wanted it over. I'd have been happy to get it over much sooner, but it was better to wait out her craziness.


Were you filed when you bought your houses?


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## lynn11374

Blondilocks said:


> Advice? Stop living with a married man.


understood, it's a last-resort option as I have too much invested at this point, having relocated to the area.


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## ILoveSparkles

Do not buy a house with him until he is divorced!

You need to start doing things for yourself - go out with friends, etc. Once he sees you doing that stuff it may kick his butt into gear to get the divorce done. Don't wait around for him to file - he clearly has no desire to, or he would have by now. By continuing to communicate with her, having excuses not to file - he is stringing her along and that's not fair to her and it sends the message that he may in fact decide to return to his wife. It's like he's keeping that option open for himself if you don't work out.


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## Married but Happy

lynn11374 said:


> Were you filed when you bought your houses?


Yes - it would have been very messy, otherwise!


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## Openminded

Married men are rarely a good bet. You don't have nearly as much time and energy in this relationship as you will in, say, five years when he still hasn't filed. Then you'll be wondering why you didn't get out back when it was easier -- like now. Don't compound your problems by buying a house with him.


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## Livvie

My advice is to get your own apartment and live separately until he files for divorce. You can't buy house with a man who is married to another woman, unless you want that house to be an asset of hers, too.

Honestly, I wouldn't date a man whose divorce isn't final, let alone who hasn't even filed yet and who has a wife who wants him back that he is putting before me emotionally.


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## Satya

If he wanted to divorce, he'd have done it by now. As said previously he may be dreading the financial fallout. 

And he won't be a d1ck for filing, he'll be exercising his right as part of an established legal process.

You gave him until when to file exactly? It sounds like you're willing to shift the goal posts of your boundaries. He'll remember that and I'm sorry to say that I think you'll be dating a married man for a while.


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## Blondilocks

He doesn't want to be a **** with his wife but he doesn't mind being a **** with you. He just wants you to help him and his wife buy some property. How many of the bills are you picking up?


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## EleGirl

lynn11374 said:


> He is now saying he wants to buy a house with me. I don't know how that would work since he is still financially and legally linked to her. I don't know how to approach the conversation because it always ends up in a fight. Any advice?


Do not buy a house with him until his divorce if final. If you buy before that, his wife will own half of his interest in the house. So she will own 25% of the house. And she can force the sale of it in the divorce so that she can get her 25%. 

He is not getting a divorce because he does not want a divorce. When a person's words do not match their actions, believe their actions. If he wanted a divorce, he would have a divorce.

Why did he leave her?


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## lynn11374

He views the divorce as nothing but a legal technicality which is why he doesn't see it as a priority. He is a very sentimental person and I think when she cries and begs him it tugs at his heartstrings and he doesn't want to hurt her by forcing her through the process. He doesn't see how it would harm me for him to take his time, that him not being divorced doesn't affect me or prevent us from living our lives together.


In his mind, he has left the marriage and found someone who is a better fit. he left her because he thought he could change her and learned the hard way that he couldn't. He is a very physical person, he needs a certain level of affection, intimacy and emotional connection. She is reserved and would have sex only once a month. She didn't want to connect with his family and doesn't have any friends and he resented that. He married her because he found her to be a good person, and thought they could somehow add the missing components. They had gone to numerous counseling sessions and she wouldn't do any of the "homework" the counselor gave them.

As far as bills go we are splitting everything 50/50, There is no way I would foot the bill for him.


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## lynn11374

Satya said:


> If he wanted to divorce, he'd have done it by now. As said previously he may be dreading the financial fallout.
> 
> And he won't be a d1ck for filing, he'll be exercising his right as part of an established legal process.
> 
> You gave him until when to file exactly? It sounds like you're willing to shift the goal posts of your boundaries. He'll remember that and I'm sorry to say that I think you'll be dating a married man for a while.


about 3 months ago he told me it will be wrapped up by the beginning of 2018. my divorce took 6 months and my ex and I were both cooperative and motivated, so at this point I don't see how this timeline will be met.


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## NextTimeAround

> As far as bills go we are splitting everything 50/50, There is no way I would foot the bill for him.


Do you make as much money as he does?


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## lynn11374

NextTimeAround said:


> Do you make as much money as he does?


I make slightly more.


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## Livvie

lynn11374 said:


> He views the divorce as nothing but a legal technicality which is why he doesn't see it as a priority. He is a very sentimental person and I think when she cries and begs him it tugs at his heartstrings and he doesn't want to hurt her by forcing her through the process. He doesn't see how it would harm me for him to take his time, that him not being divorced doesn't affect me or prevent us from living our lives together.
> 
> 
> In his mind, he has left the marriage and found someone who is a better fit. he left her because he thought he could change her and learned the hard way that he couldn't. He is a very physical person, he needs a certain level of affection, intimacy and emotional connection. She is reserved and would have sex only once a month. She didn't want to connect with his family and doesn't have any friends and he resented that. He married her because he found her to be a good person, and thought they could somehow add the missing components. They had gone to numerous counseling sessions and she wouldn't do any of the "homework" the counselor gave them.
> 
> As far as bills go we are splitting everything 50/50, There is no way I would foot the bill for him.


He hasn't left the marriage. He's still 100% absolutely married to another woman.


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## Satya

lynn11374 said:


> He doesn't see how it would harm me for him to take his time, that him not being divorced doesn't affect me or prevent us from living our lives together.


 @lynn11374, he doesn't see it or thinks it affects your relationship because you are still with him, not to put too fine a point on it. Sure you can live together... You can buy things together and pay bills, but he is legally still married to his wife. 

If you don't act and behave like you are not OK with things, then he's going to assume that you are OK with things.


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## EleGirl

lynn11374 said:


> He views the divorce as nothing but a legal technicality which is why he doesn't see it as a priority. He is a very sentimental person and I think when she cries and begs him it tugs at his heartstrings and he doesn't want to hurt her by forcing her through the process. He doesn't see how it would harm me for him to take his time, that him not being divorced doesn't affect me or prevent us from living our lives together.
> 
> 
> In his mind, he has left the marriage and found someone who is a better fit. he left her because he thought he could change her and learned the hard way that he couldn't. He is a very physical person, he needs a certain level of affection, intimacy and emotional connection. She is reserved and would have sex only once a month. She didn't want to connect with his family and doesn't have any friends and he resented that. He married her because he found her to be a good person, and thought they could somehow add the missing components. They had gone to numerous counseling sessions and she wouldn't do any of the "homework" the counselor gave them.
> 
> As far as bills go we are splitting everything 50/50, There is no way I would foot the bill for him.


He is still very entangled with her emotionally. You are the transition relationship. If he ever untangles from her emotionally, he will dump you. I know, you think I'm wrong. I've seen this so many times that it's so easy to see.

How often does he see her in person? Does he ever do things for her?

What is it that you want out of this relationship? Do you want to eventually marry him? Or do you want to stay unmarried but live with him? Do you want children with him?


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## EleGirl

Do you have any joint bank accounts or investments with him?


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## Magnesium

lynn11374 said:


> He views the divorce as nothing but a legal technicality which is why he doesn't see it as a priority. He is a very sentimental person and I think when she cries and begs him it tugs at his heartstrings and he doesn't want to hurt her by forcing her through the process. He doesn't see how it would harm me for him to take his time, that him not being divorced doesn't affect me or prevent us from living our lives together.


How very convenient ...for HIM. 

Ugh. Please reconsider this relationship before doing anything permanent. 



lynn11374 said:


> understood, it's a last-resort option as *I have too much invested at this point, having relocated to the area*.


Sunk cost fallacy. Not a wise way to go about making life decisions.


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## lynn11374

EleGirl said:


> He is still very entangled with her emotionally. You are the transition relationship. If he ever untangles from her emotionally, he will dump you. I know, you think I'm wrong. I've seen this so many times that it's so easy to see.
> 
> How often does he see her in person? Does he ever do things for her?
> 
> What is it that you want out of this relationship? Do you want to eventually marry him? Or do you want to stay unmarried but live with him? Do you want children with him?


He sees her about once a month when he sets up a time to meet with her to go over how to divide property. Each time she gets emotional and uncooperative, so he leaves and waits it out. He has at times helped with taking care of the cats, or snow removal, for her, as they still own a house jointly. I don't think I'd want a man who would just walk out on someone and leave them in a lurch.

I would like to eventually marry him but I won't be ready for marriage for a few years. I just turned 43 so children are not likely in my future unless we adopted. It's something I think we'd both be open to but I'd be fine without children as well.

We have 1 joint bank account that we each put just enough money into to pay bills and rent.


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## Magnesium

Was he already separated and moved out before the two of you met?


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## GuyInColorado

My personal experience... I separated on January 10th 2016. Started dating immediately. Met my now fiancee February 5th. Filed for divorce February 15th. Divorce was finalized June 10th. I had a house, 3 vehicles, a camper, and retirement accounts, and two kids under 6yrs old. Got engaged February 10th 2017, bought a house April 15th, and getting married September 3rd.

Your BF is a puss. Tell him to choose you or his wife. It should be interesting. Do you read their text messages? This is a very odd relationship.


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## Blondilocks

Fact 1: They have been separated for at least a year and a half. No leaving anyone in the lurch here.

Fact 2: You're here because you don't know how to tell your boyfriend that you don't want to buy a house with him while he is still married because the conversation always turns into a fight.

Fact 3: You don't like the position you're in but you like to provide him with excuses and don't like to rock the boat. 

Are you really, really, sure that this is the way you want to go through the rest of your life? Will you ever be his #1 priority? Will marriage suddenly make uncomfortable conversations comfortable? How bendy are you? You might need to take up yoga to live with this guy permanently.


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## lifeistooshort

Blondilocks said:


> Fact 1: They have been separated for at least a year and a half. No leaving anyone in the lurch here.
> 
> Fact 2: You're here because you don't know how to tell your boyfriend that you don't want to buy a house with him while he is still married because the conversation always turns into a fight.
> 
> Fact 3: You don't like the position you're in but you like to provide him with excuses and don't like to rock the boat.
> 
> Are you really, really, sure that this is the way you want to go through the rest of your life? Will you ever be his #1 priority? Will marriage suddenly make uncomfortable conversations comfortable? How bendy are you? You might need to take up yoga to live with this guy permanently.



To add to this..... he doesn't want to be a **** to his wife but has no problem fighting with you over it.

Apparently her feelings are more important.

How do you even know she gets hysterical? Have you witnessed their interactions? 

You are so wasting your time with this guy. He's not divorced because he doesn't want to be divorced.

I hope you can square with that before you waste too much of your life. This is why separated people are often a bad prospect.


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## NextTimeAround

lynn11374 said:


> He sees her about once a month when he sets up a time to meet with her to go over how to divide property. Each time she gets emotional and uncooperative, so he leaves and waits it out. He has at times helped with taking care of the cats, or snow removal, for her, as they still own a house jointly. I don't think I'd want a man who would just walk out on someone and leave them in a lurch.
> 
> I would like to eventually marry him but I won't be ready for marriage for a few years. I just turned 43 so children are not likely in my future unless we adopted. It's something I think we'd both be open to but I'd be fine without children as well.
> 
> We have 1 joint bank account that we each put just enough money into to pay bills and rent.


My exH and I divided up assets with our lawyers as intermediaries. He did no favors for me while we were separated. Took me off his work's health insurance plan and changed the will.

When he was ready to remarry he really hustled me for decree nisi.


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## lynn11374

We were both separated when we met. 

I know she gets hysterical because I snooped on his phone from time to time and what I have read in his text messages supports that. 

I do think he wants a divorce, but he wanted her to find a new guy first, so he felt like it was an equal situation since he has somebody.


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## NextTimeAround

lynn11374 said:


> We were both separated when we met.
> 
> I know she gets hysterical because I snooped on his phone from time to time and what I have read in his text messages supports that.
> 
> *I do think he wants a divorce, but he wanted her to find a new guy first, so he felt like it was an equal situation since he has somebody.*


It does not bode well that that is a priority of his.


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## Married but Happy

Do not move in with him or buy a house with him until this is resolved - as in him filing for divorce no matter what. His ex has too much of a hold over him, and he has to learn to set limits and boundaries - so far, he has not.


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## Satya

@lynn11374, we have each offered our opinions on the matter. I think they're fairly unanimous. 

How do YOU feel about all this? I'm not detecting many strong feelings in your responses one way or another. Are you just trying to absorb it all and figure out what you want? Or do you know precisely what you want right now?


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## lifeistooshort

Lynn, all of us men and women are telling you the same thing. If he wanted to be divorced he would be pursuing it, and he's more concerned about her feelings then his future with you. 

And by the way, this won't necessarily stop if they get divorced. He's unwilling to set boundaries with her and that's unlikely to change.

But you are certainly entitled to continue to live with him if that's what you want, we're just urging you to see this for what it is and quit making excuses for him. If your eyes are open and what you get out of it is worth it then by all means carry on. You don't owe explanations to anyone.

But for the love of all things do not buy a house with a guy that's still married..... that's just plain foolish. Live there if you want but do not entangle yourself financially. You shouldn't even have the joint account you have.

And don't be shocked if as ele said he eventually dumps you once he's divorced, if that ever happens. You are likely a transition relationship so enjoy whatever you get out of it.


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## Livvie

I don't mean this is a mean way, and I hope this is helpful to you in some way.

I've always had a problem with settling for less in a relationship, not watching out for my own well being, not speaking up for myself, not leaving toxic relationships, accepting and making excuses for mistreatment. However, this thread makes me realize that I've come a long way---and that in this area, maybe I wasn't ever as bad as I thought. Because....I would not subject myself to the situation you are in, for even one day. I wouldn't engage in conflict with this man about his marriage situation, I wouldn't talk to him about the situation, I wouldn't hope that some day he might actually not be married, I would just plain be gone, gone, gone. I'm not a strong person in being an advocate for myself in relationships, so if even I would not tolerate this situation, please hear the message that others out there in the world are telling you the dynamic you are in is incredibly unhealthy.


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## lucy999

lynn11374 said:


> In his mind, he has left the marriage and found someone who is a better fit. he left her because he thought he could change her and learned the hard way that he couldn't. He is a very physical person, he needs a certain level of affection, intimacy and emotional connection. She is reserved and would have sex only once a month. She didn't want to connect with his family and doesn't have any friends and he resented that. He married her because he found her to be a good person, and thought they could somehow add the missing components. They had gone to numerous counseling sessions and she wouldn't do any of the "homework" the counselor gave them.
> 
> .


Right. In his mind. Wonder what her side of the story is? Listen, I know you love this man and you have a relationship with him and you're living with him. I'm not saying this to hurt your feelings. But you are second fiddle to him. You are his cake and his wife is his ego Kibbles. He has two women vying for his affection, that is every man's dream! Why would he get rid of his ego Kibbles by divorcing? This is a lose-lose proposition for you.

I think it is odd that he meets with her once a month to try to talk about division of assets. If he really wanted to move forward with you and only you, he would have retained an attorney long ago and proceeded with the divorce. His money is more important than you, and his wife's feelings and emotional well-being is more important than you. Again, I'm not saying this to hurt your feelings. But I do think you are wasting your time.


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## MJJEAN

lynn11374 said:


> Yes, he has admitted the business assets and financial loss is a factor but primarily he wants to move forward with things without being a d*ck about it.



So, in his mind, leaving his wife and living with another woman ISN'T a **** move, but actually filing for divorce so she can accept reality, heal, and move on IS a **** move? 

Their marriage is just a legal technicality, huh? He still owns a home with her. They're both still legally liable for each others debts and legally entitled to each others assets. The longer they are married, the more of his assets and spousal support she becomes entitled to in a divorce.

He doesn't need to meet privately with her to discuss asset division. That's what mediators, lawyers, and judges are for.

She's a grown adult woman, so I am assuming she can arrange for her own snow removal and household repairs using neighborhood kids, Angie's List or something like it, referrals from friends lawn/handyman services, or even the old fashioned phone book.

He's still emotionally attached to his wife. He doesn't want to divorce her. If he did, he'd file. As things stand, he still has his wife, even gets to spend time with her here and there, and he's got you, too. This is a sweet deal for him. Wife, intact assets, and mistress with little muss and almost no fuss. There's a reason she's convinced he'll come back and it probably starts and ends with "Well, he hasn't filed for divorce, we text and see each other sometimes, and he still does things for me, so.."

I'd tell him he has 30 days to actually meet with an attorney and have the divorce papers filed or you're ending the relationship. And mean it. You're already in your 40's. The "back nine" as DH and I put it when we hit our 40's. How much of the rest of your life are you willing to waste on another woman's husband?


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## Malaise

lynn11374 said:


> *He views the divorce as nothing but a legal technicality which is why he doesn't see it as a priority. *


I'm sure the judge will agree.


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## lynn11374

he feels it is still his responsibility to help her with the house because it's still technically his house and he's still paying for it. He makes twice what she makes.

So if I am second fiddle to him, why is he taking me on vacations with his family, living with me and wanting to buy a house with me? Wouldn't he be doing all this with her and just having me on the side if she was his priority? 

Honestly I am just trying to make sense of all of this and really appreciate the input.


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## Malaise

If he really wanted a divorce he'd get one.

Whatever it took.


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## samyeagar

lynn11374 said:


> he feels it is still his responsibility to help her with the house because it's still technically his house and he's still paying for it. He makes twice what she makes.
> 
> So if I am second fiddle to him, why is he taking me on vacations with his family, living with me and wanting to buy a house with me? Wouldn't he be doing all this with her and just having me on the side if she was his priority?
> 
> Honestly I am just trying to make sense of all of this and really appreciate the input.


Flip the script then. If you are his primary, are you fine with him keeping her as at least an emotional mistress? At the very least, there is absolutely no question that he is still emotionally involved with her. This is the very definition of someone who is emotionally unavailable. He is funneling emotional energy into her that could rightfully be considered yours.

Granting that you are his primary, are you OK with your significant other having and maintaining an emotional affair? Although it may be unlikely, do not entirely discount the possibility that he is still having sex with her. She is his wife after all. There is history there. They are actively maintaining a connection between them that is largely positive. They have regular contact, and physical proximity. All the ingredients are there...


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## tropicalbeachiwish

lynn11374 said:


> So if I am second fiddle to him, why is he taking me on vacations with his family, living with me and wanting to buy a house with me? Wouldn't he be doing all this with her and just having me on the side if she was his priority?


Because you're the one that's having sex with him. He needs you close by for that. He's doing what he needs to do in order to keep you around. 

Whatever you do, DON'T mingle your finances with him. You're exposing your financials to the wife.


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## lifeistooshort

If something happens to him right now, in the eyes of the law she's his wife and is entitled to everything.

You couldn't even get into the hospital to see him.... but his wife could. 

Men take side girlfriends on vacation all the time, even when they're intending to stay married.

As long as he sees his wife as his responsibility he isn't relationship material and you are second fiddle.


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## Primrose

If he's waiting to file until she has found someone new, then there should be no need for these monthly meetings to go over assets. That part makes absolutely no sense to me, especially since she has proven to be unwilling to settle. 

Trust everyone who is saying, if he wanted to be divorced, he would be. I was married to my ex-husband for 10 years, had three children with him, a home, two vehicles, a camper, and several savings accounts. Our divorce took a mere 5 months from the day I first met with a lawyer until it was finalized. 

Long story short, he should have been divorced a year ago. And he would have been if he wasn't keeping her on the back burner as a fall back option.


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## EleGirl

lynn11374 said:


> We were both separated when we met.
> 
> I know she gets hysterical because I snooped on his phone from time to time and what I have read in his text messages supports that.
> 
> *I do think he wants a divorce, but he wanted her to find a new guy first, so he felt like it was an equal situation since he has somebody.*


Many people never date again after their marriage ends. So this is a pretty silly thing for him to be waiting for.

He does not have a divorce because he does not really want a divorce. He does not need to meet with her once a month to try to negotiate. That's what lawyers are for. He files for divorce and makes an offer, they negotiate through lawyers. Then the judge makes the final ruling. If he ever gets a divorce, that's how it is going to go down.

More likely, he will end up going back to her. After all her happiness is more important to him than yours. Since he is not divorced he is having an affair with you. Only about 3% of affairs end in long term relationships.

Are you really ok with being the affair partner to a married man?


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## samyeagar

EleGirl said:


> Many people never date again after their marriage ends. So this is a pretty silly thing for him to be waiting for.
> 
> He does not have a divorce because he does not really want a divorce. He does not need to meet with her once a month to try to negotiate. That's what lawyers are for. He files for divorce and makes an offer, they negotiate through lawyers. Then the judge makes the final ruling. If he ever gets a divorce, that's how it is going to go down.
> 
> More likely, he will end up going back to her. After all her happiness is more important to him than yours. Since he is not divorced he is having an affair with you. Only about 3% of affairs end in long term relationships.
> 
> *Are you really ok with being the affair partner to a married man?*


Since she is feeling like she is the primary woman, what I asked earlier is just as applicable...does she feel OK with her partner having an open affair with his wife?


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## EleGirl

samyeagar said:


> Since she is feeling like she is the primary woman, what I asked earlier is just as applicable...does she feel OK with her partner having an open affair with his wife?


I wonder what the venue is when he visits with his wife? I would not be surprised if he was still having sex with his wife. Very often, that's what happens. She uses sex of keep him from filing, with the hope that eventually the affair with the OP will end.


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## EleGirl

lifeistooshort said:


> If something happens to him right now, in the eyes of the law she's his wife and is entitled to everything.
> 
> You couldn't even get into the hospital to see him.... but his wife could.
> 
> Men take side girlfriends on vacation all the time, even when they're intending to stay married.
> 
> As long as he sees his wife as his responsibility he isn't relationship material and you are second fiddle.


This is a very important point. If anything were to happen to him, she would most likely not allow you to see him or be around him. She would have the legal right to take every penny in your joint account. If you buy a house with him before he is divorced, she can force the sale of the house and take his 50%.


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## Blondilocks

lynn11374 said:


> he feels it is still his responsibility to help her with the house because it's still technically his house and he's still paying for it. He makes twice what she makes.
> 
> *So if I am second fiddle to him, why is he taking me on vacations with his family, living with me and wanting to buy a house with me? Wouldn't he be doing all this with her and just having me on the side if she was his priority? *
> 
> Honestly I am just trying to make sense of all of this and really appreciate the input.


Check which box applies:

a. he has no morals
b. he has no integrity
c. he's insensitive
d. he's a selfish *******
e. all of the above


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## GuyInColorado

Your married boyfriend is a wuss. He needs to detach from the wife and not support her anymore. Let me guess, he still changes light bulbs for her and mows the lawn? I can't believe you allow this. Do you have no confidence? You already moved in with him, WTH were you thinking? Now it's much harder to walk away from a bad situation.


----------



## lynn11374

EleGirl said:


> Many people never date again after their marriage ends. So this is a pretty silly thing for him to be waiting for.
> 
> He does not have a divorce because he does not really want a divorce. He does not need to meet with her once a month to try to negotiate. That's what lawyers are for. He files for divorce and makes an offer, they negotiate through lawyers. Then the judge makes the final ruling. If he ever gets a divorce, that's how it is going to go down.
> 
> More likely, he will end up going back to her. After all her happiness is more important to him than yours. Since he is not divorced he is having an affair with you. Only about 3% of affairs end in long term relationships.
> 
> Are you really ok with being the affair partner to a married man?


He was hoping she would start dating as that would allow her to move on emotionally and be ok with the divorce, so that they can amicably work out a settlement rather than her fighting him every step of the way with lawyers and courts. Since she's still stuck on him, she will throw every wrench she can into the process to keep it from happening. This is what he's trying to prevent. I think he's being stupid for thinking she's ever going to give him the green light, but that's what he's been holding out hope for. One thing about him is he is very stubborn, with pretty much everything. He thinks he knows everything and has to be proven wrong. My ex was cooperative (because he despised my guts at that point) and our divorce took 6 months through a mediator, and could have been 5 months but I was traveling for part of the time. 

Regarding her happiness - she is completely miserable so I don't see how he can be providing for her happiness over mine. 

And regarding this being an affair, I'm not sure I understand that. Nothing about this is secret. isn't it normal for separated people to date? I was not legally divorced either when we started dating, does that mean he was an affair partner?

As far as him still being emotionally involved with her, I think it's guilt more than anything else. But honestly if that's what holding things up he needs to get over it. I'm not going to date a guy indefinitely who feels too guilty to get a divorce.


----------



## Magnesium

lynn11374 said:


> He was hoping she would start dating as that would allow her to move on emotionally and be ok with the divorce, so that they can amicably work out a settlement rather than her fighting him every step of the way with lawyers and courts. Since she's still stuck on him, she will throw every wrench she can into the process to keep it from happening. This is what he's trying to prevent. I think he's being stupid for thinking she's ever going to give him the green light, but that's what he's been holding out hope for. One thing about him is he is very stubborn, with pretty much everything. He thinks he knows everything and has to be proven wrong. My ex was cooperative (because he despised my guts at that point) and our divorce took 6 months through a mediator, and could have been 5 months but I was traveling for part of the time.
> 
> Regarding her happiness - she is completely miserable so I don't see how he can be providing for her happiness over mine.
> 
> And regarding this being an affair, I'm not sure I understand that. Nothing about this is secret. isn't it normal for separated people to date? I was not legally divorced either when we started dating, does that mean he was an affair partner?
> 
> As far as him still being emotionally involved with her, I think it's guilt more than anything else. But honestly if that's what holding things up he needs to get over it. I'm not going to date a guy indefinitely who feels too guilty to get a divorce.


You're not "dating"...you're playing house with a man who refuses to divorce his wife. 

Check back in next year and give us an update. I'd bet a paycheck that at that time he will either still not be divorced, or finally divorced and dumped you (or cheated on you).

Why did your ex husband despise your guts? Did you cheat on him?


----------



## NextTimeAround

Malaise said:


> I'm sure the judge will agree.


My mother told me that one of her friends whose husband cheated on her for years never got a divorce. So when he died, she inherited all his assets and his mistress got nothing.

OP, what are you going to do if this guy dies on you?


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## lynn11374

Magnesium said:


> You're not "dating"...you're playing house with a man who refuses to divorce his wife.
> 
> Check back in next year and give us an update. I'd bet a paycheck that at that time he will either still not be divorced, or finally divorced and dumped you (or cheated on you).
> 
> Why did your ex husband despise your guts? Did you cheat on him?


He despised me because I pulled away from him and slept in a separate bedroom for almost 2 years. He was abusive and it took a long time for me to realize it. I didn't handle things well, I didn't know how to, but he never once took responsibility for anything he contributed towards the demise of our marriage.


----------



## lynn11374

NextTimeAround said:


> My mother told me that one of her friends whose husband cheated on her for years never got a divorce. So when he died, she inherited all his assets and his mistress got nothing.
> 
> OP, what are you going to do if this guy dies on you?


I've decided I am not buying a house with him so we will not have assets. I will let him know this and hope this lights a fire under him to start the divorce process. If not I will be moving out at the end of the year.


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## Magnesium

lynn11374 said:


> He despised me because I pulled away from him and slept in a separate bedroom for almost 2 years. He was abusive and it took a long time for me to realize it. I didn't handle things well, I didn't know how to, but he never once took responsibility for anything he contributed towards the demise of our marriage.



I would suggest 3-5 years on your own without a relationship (but doing some real dating - not relationship-hopping) before getting involved with someone again.

This whole situation is a ticking time-bomb. Get out before you end up in even more pieces than you currently are.

Best of luck to you.


----------



## NextTimeAround

lynn11374 said:


> he feels it is still his responsibility to help her with the house because it's still technically his house and he's still paying for it. He makes twice what she makes.
> 
> So if I am second fiddle to him,
> 
> 1. why is he taking me on vacations with his family, because you're new, better, happier company, you're able to pay for half the costs
> 
> 2. living with me and wanting to buy a house with me? Because you pay half the down payment and half the mortgage payments and then he will own 2 houses, not just the one his wife lives in.
> 
> Wouldn't he be doing all this with her and just having me on the side if she was his priority Some men like spreading their seed, their, wings, their influence......?
> 
> Honestly I am just trying to make sense of all of this and really appreciate the input.


His ability to go between the two households that he has set up means that he is enjoying the open relationship. Or you're an FWB........


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## Prodigal

lynn11374 said:


> One thing about him is he is very stubborn, with pretty much everything. He thinks he knows everything and has to be proven wrong.


This character sounds like a real peach. And you are only observing this as his gf. You marry him and this will be more pronounced. I wouldn't wait until the end of the year. I'd get out now. And not look back.


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## Blondilocks

Even if you do wind up marrying him, what will you get? See post #51 plus

"One thing about him is he is very stubborn, with pretty much everything. He thinks he knows everything and has to be proven wrong."

This is the gem of a man you want to spend the rest of your life with? Run. Don't walk. Run.


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## Satya

If he's avoiding the hard conversations with his wife, imagine all of the hard conversations he'll avoid with you.

When he blows you off about something YOU care about and are invested in, you're going to feel very differently about his passive treatment of his "divorce" with his wife.

Watch a man's actions... Very carefully.


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## wringo123

lynn11374 said:


> He was hoping she would start dating as that would allow her to move on emotionally and be ok with the divorce, so that they can amicably work out a settlement rather than her fighting him every step of the way with lawyers and courts. Since she's still stuck on him, she will throw every wrench she can into the process to keep it from happening. This is what he's trying to prevent. I think he's being stupid for thinking she's ever going to give him the green light, but that's what he's been holding out hope for. One thing about him is he is very stubborn, with pretty much everything. He thinks he knows everything and has to be proven wrong. My ex was cooperative (because he despised my guts at that point) and our divorce took 6 months through a mediator, and could have been 5 months but I was traveling for part of the time.
> 
> Regarding her happiness - she is completely miserable so I don't see how he can be providing for her happiness over mine.
> 
> And regarding this being an affair, I'm not sure I understand that. Nothing about this is secret. isn't it normal for separated people to date? I was not legally divorced either when we started dating, does that mean he was an affair partner?
> 
> As far as him still being emotionally involved with her, I think it's guilt more than anything else. But honestly if that's what holding things up he needs to get over it. I'm not going to date a guy indefinitely who feels too guilty to get a divorce.


Why would she start dating and move on emotional ly while he continues to string her along with the possibility of reconciliation by not filing for divorce?

He is preventing her from doing the exact thing he says he wants her to do

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


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## lynn11374

wringo123 said:


> Why would she start dating and move on emotional ly while he continues to string her along with the possibility of reconciliation by not filing for divorce?
> 
> He is preventing her from doing the exact thing he says he wants her to do
> 
> Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


I totally agree with this and have told him this repeatedly. She even said it to him herself.


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## Melrose8888

lynn11374 said:


> And regarding this being an affair, I'm not sure I understand that. Nothing about this is secret. isn't it normal for separated people to date? I was not legally divorced either when we started dating, does that mean he was an affair partner?
> .


Assuming you've had sex then, yes and you committed adultery.

Let's take a positive view of this, there are plenty more fish in the sea. Perhaps it's best to find someone with less complications right now. After all, if he really is Mr Right, he'll still be there when he eventually divorces. If he ever does...


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## NextTimeAround

lynn11374 said:


> *I've decided I am not buying a house with him so we will not have assets. * I will let him know this and hope this lights a fire under him to start the divorce process. If not I will be moving out at the end of the year.


yeah, that would be something. having to share your main home with his wife / widow.


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## Magnesium

lynn11374 said:


> I totally agree with this and have told him this repeatedly. She even said it to him herself.


And, here you are....

The man does not want a divorce.


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## wringo123

lynn11374 said:


> I totally agree with this and have told him this repeatedly. She even said it to him herself.


What was his response? FWIW I have been the left wife in this situation, although I had no illusions or desire for reconciliation. He still dragged his feet for two years while actively involved with someone else. I never really understood why . I let it drag on because he was voluntarily paying more in support than a court would order, so I didn't rock the boat. Eventually though I had to be the one to file because I was tired of being in limbo.

This may sound harsh but I wondered what kind of adult woman would uproot her life, leave her job and family to relocate with him without not only a commitment from him, but also while he was legally committed to someone else. Knowing him it didn't surprise me he expected that but it did surprise me anybody with a lick of self respect would do it. They eventually did marry and he still expects her to make all the comprises and sacrifices and she still does it. 



Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


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## Satya

When my husband and I were in the very early stages of dating, he told me that his ex gf's stuff was all over his house, even though it had been a year since they'd broken up (they'd been together for 10 years). He wanted me to come over to his house one night and cook a meal (he rarely cooked and wanted a home cooked meal). I looked him in the eye while we were walking together and I told him that I will not set foot in his home until his ex gf's [email protected] is GONE.

3 days, 10 garbage bags, and one house cleaning crew later, I was cooking a meal in his very clean home.

My point is, if a man loves you enough, he will do what you ask (within reason). End of.


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## aine

lynn11374 said:


> Hi Everyone. So I've been dating a man for about a year and half, who is separated from his wife. I was separated as well when we met, and finalized my divorce in December. We moved in together in November with the expectation that he will be moving forward with the divorce, and I relocated to the area he lived in so he could be close to his job, he is a business owner. everything is great in our relationship. He is very kind and loving towards me, goes above and beyond to make me happy, and we have a lot in common. He has integrated me into his life, family and friends. I am very happy with everything except for the fact that he hasn't filed for divorce yet.
> 
> His wife does not want a divorce. Every time he tries to talk to her about dividing up assets etc.., she becomes hysterical, saying she will instead wait for him to come back to her. He assures her he is not coming back, but says all she has in her life is the hope they can still work things out. They do not have kids. He has been waiting for her to come around and accept reality so they can move forward with filing but it's just not happening. I told him to just file, but he said he'd rather do this amicably and he is willing to give her whatever she wants in the divorce. He doesn't want to deal with lawyers and courts, and wants to make sure she is emotionally ok with everything. He has been encouraging her to start dating other people so she can move on, but she says absolutely not, she is waiting for him to come home.
> 
> He is now saying he wants to buy a house with me. I don't know how that would work since he is still financially and legally linked to her. I don't know how to approach the conversation because it always ends up in a fight. Any advice?


Was he separated from his wife when you two met or did you steal another woman's husband? He is still married and it would be in your best interests to make no committment and stop living with him. When he is actually divorced then proceed.


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## aine

lynn11374 said:


> I totally agree with this and have told him this repeatedly. She even said it to him herself.


Then give him a reason to make the decision once and for all


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## Livvie

lynn11374 said:


> he feels it is still his responsibility to help her with the house because it's still technically his house and he's still paying for it. He makes twice what she makes.
> 
> So if I am second fiddle to him, why is he taking me on vacations with his family, living with me and wanting to buy a house with me? Wouldn't he be doing all this with her and just having me on the side if she was his priority?
> 
> Honestly I am just trying to make sense of all of this and really appreciate the input.





Blondilocks said:


> Even if you do wind up marrying him, what will you get? See post #51 plus
> 
> "One thing about him is he is very stubborn, with pretty much everything. He thinks he knows everything and has to be proven wrong."
> 
> This is the gem of a man you want to spend the rest of your life with? Run. Don't walk. Run.


He's paying for his wife's house?????

You are in a relationship with a man who is providing housing for his wife.

I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. Why are you okay with your boyfriend paying for his wife's housing?


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## EleGirl

lynn11374 said:


> He was hoping she would start dating as that would allow her to move on emotionally and be ok with the divorce, so that they can amicably work out a settlement rather than her fighting him every step of the way with lawyers and courts. Since she's still stuck on him, she will throw every wrench she can into the process to keep it from happening. This is what he's trying to prevent. I think he's being stupid for thinking she's ever going to give him the green light, but that's what he's been holding out hope for. One thing about him is he is very stubborn, with pretty much everything. He thinks he knows everything and has to be proven wrong. My ex was cooperative (because he despised my guts at that point) and our divorce took 6 months through a mediator, and could have been 5 months but I was traveling for part of the time.
> 
> Regarding her happiness - she is completely miserable so I don't see how he can be providing for her happiness over mine.


If she wants her marriage, she is right to hold on to him and to fight for him any way she can. I would not do that. But I've seen men and women both do this. And very often, their spouse returns.

Why would she even think that he really wants a divorce. She would also be right to think that. After all, he clearly does not want a divorce. If he wanted one, he would have filed and would have one by now.



lynn11374 said:


> And regarding this being an affair, I'm not sure I understand that. Nothing about this is secret. isn't it normal for separated people to date? I was not legally divorced either when we started dating, does that mean he was an affair partner?


Affairs not all secret. The words "affair" and/or "infidelity" do not mean that the relationship has to be secret. What those words mean is that a married person is in a relationship with someone other than their spouse. You are his mistress. He has a wife. You are having an affair with a married man. You are involved in fidelity. 

No, it is not normal for people who are only separated to date. In some states, it's legally infidelity even if a divorce if final. Marriage is marriage until the divorce if final.

See, often when a couple separates, with no divorce filed, they talk about working on their marriage. They talk about the separation being for the purpose of giving them space so that they can work on the marriage without the stress of living together for a while. Then one of them starts dating, even living with someone. But they keep their spouse strung along just in case the affair ends. Your boyfriend (affair partner) is a lucky man. He has two women fighting for him. Must make him feel like quite the big guy.

Depending on your state, his wife could sue you for alienation of affection. She can sue him for wasting marital assets on a mistress. I know a woman who did this. She got a nice settlement out of it.

Consider this... could you marry a man who is only separated? Nope. Why? Because he's still married.



lynn11374 said:


> As far as him still being emotionally involved with her, I think it's guilt more than anything else. But honestly if that's what holding things up he needs to get over it. I'm not going to date a guy indefinitely who feels too guilty to get a divorce.


Of course he is still emotionally involved with her. The fact that he is holding on to guilt, meets with her about once a month (of course you have no idea how much he is really meeting with her), and then they have their monthly little emotional meeting where she cries, etc... well the reason is that he's still emotionally meshed with her. If he were not, he'd have a divorce by now.


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## EleGirl

NextTimeAround said:


> My mother told me that one of her friends whose husband cheated on her for years never got a divorce. So when he died, she inherited all his assets and his mistress got nothing.
> 
> OP, what are you going to do if this guy dies on you?


My FIL left his wife (MIL) and married another woman. He never divorced my MIL. He left her to raise 4 children on her own.

It took 25 years for MIL to find her husband (FIL). Actually I found him; the internet is a great research tool. 

MIL was preparing to sue him for divorce when he died. So instead she sued his estate. Guess who got his estate? Not his new wife.. the new wife who knew what he did. Instead MIL did because she was his legal wife when he died. Oh, and the 4 children did too since they inherit per the law.


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## EleGirl

lynn11374 said:


> He despised me because I pulled away from him and slept in a separate bedroom for almost 2 years. He was abusive and it took a long time for me to realize it. I didn't handle things well, I didn't know how to, but he never once took responsibility for anything he contributed towards the demise of our marriage.


What did you ex do that was abusive?

You went right from a bad marriage into a relationship. You really never gave yourself time to heal and work on why it is that you took abuse for a long time, not even realizing that it was abuse. And once you knew it was abuse, why you stayed for 2 years sleeping in another bedroom.

What have you done to work on yourself? What have you done figure out how to get caught in a bad situation again?

It sounds like you went from a bad marriage into relationship with another relationship that is not good. Now you are living with a married man who is ignoring your needs--another bad relationship.

Have you considered getting some counseling?


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## Zanne

Regarding the issue of buying a home, my STBXH is in the process of buying a house and we are not divorced yet. I will not be on the title and neither will his live-in girlfriend. However, the underwriters will require proof that we have filed for divorce. In fact, I rushed to finish the paperwork on my end, signed and mail them from the Grand Canyon where we were on vacation, just so he could file the damn papers before closing.

Speaking to the situation with your boyfriend and his inaction on the divorce process, I hear you. My boyfriend is not divorced yet either and we have been living together for two years, and separated from our spouses for several months before that. So much of it is about finances. If I give him a hard time regarding his progress on his divorce, he reminds me how long it took for me to file.

My boyfriend and I are great together, lots of common interests, etc., but this is a huge issue for us because, in my beliefs, his inaction to move along with his divorce is holding us in bondage to sin. This is pretty much why some people here are being harsh with you about living with this guy. If you don't believe it's morally wrong, then ignore the posts that say you are committing adultery. It's your life. I do think it is fair for you to set boundaries with regard to your future though. If you don't and you find yourself in the same place a year from now, guess who you have to blame?


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## MrsHolland

Does his wife have mental health issues?


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## lynn11374

Livvie said:


> He's paying for his wife's house?????
> 
> You are in a relationship with a man who is providing housing for his wife.
> 
> I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. Why are you okay with your boyfriend paying for his wife's housing?


His name is on the mortgage and the deed, he has to pay. And even when divorced, he will be paying for her housing for years in the form of alimony.


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## lynn11374

wringo123 said:


> What was his response? FWIW I have been the left wife in this situation, although I had no illusions or desire for reconciliation. He still dragged his feet for two years while actively involved with someone else. I never really understood why . I let it drag on because he was voluntarily paying more in support than a court would order, so I didn't rock the boat. Eventually though I had to be the one to file because I was tired of being in limbo.
> 
> This may sound harsh but I wondered what kind of adult woman would uproot her life, leave her job and family to relocate with him without not only a commitment from him, but also while he was legally committed to someone else. Knowing him it didn't surprise me he expected that but it did surprise me anybody with a lick of self respect would do it. They eventually did marry and he still expects her to make all the comprises and sacrifices and she still does it.
> 
> Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


I read somewhere that men rarely file for divorce, it's almost always the woman who does it even if the man is the one who wants it. This is what happened to me too. So I guess the odds are against any man filing in general.


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## lynn11374

EleGirl said:


> What did you ex do that was abusive?
> 
> You went right from a bad marriage into a relationship. You really never gave yourself time to heal and work on why it is that you took abuse for a long time, not even realizing that it was abuse. And once you knew it was abuse, why you stayed for 2 years sleeping in another bedroom.
> 
> What have you done to work on yourself? What have you done figure out how to get caught in a bad situation again?
> 
> It sounds like you went from a bad marriage into relationship with another relationship that is not good. Now you are living with a married man who is ignoring your needs--another bad relationship.
> 
> Have you considered getting some counseling?


My ex was very critical and called me awful things on a regular basis, like idiot, retard, loser etc... Despite this I felt tremendous guilt and could not get the courage to leave. I was in counseling for 2 years and it got to the point where he left me. He wanted the divorce and basically threw the paperwork at me to complete and file. This is why I have some sympathy for my bf's situation. I am asking him to have the courage I did not have myself.

i did learn in counseling how to set boundaries, but for some reason I am not putting them into action. I am afraid he will see me as being selfish and unsupportive, give up on me and leave.


----------



## EleGirl

lynn11374 said:


> My ex was very critical and called me awful things on a regular basis, like idiot, retard, loser etc... Despite this I felt tremendous guilt and could not get the courage to leave. I was in counseling for 2 years and it got to the point where he left me. He wanted the divorce and basically threw the paperwork at me to complete and file. This is why I have some sympathy for my bf's situation. I am asking him to have the courage I did not have myself.
> 
> i did learn in counseling how to set boundaries, but for some reason I am not putting them into action. I am afraid he will see me as being selfish and unsupportive, give up on me and leave.


You are not setting boundaries because you have no practice setting boundaries. And this is a very hard and confusing situation you find yourself in. The deeper you get into it, the less likely you will ever set any boundaries.

You might want to get into counseling again so that you have someone who can help you set and keep boundaries until you are strong enough to do it on your own.

It is not selfish to set boundaries that are meant to protect yourself. For some reason you do not do much to protect yourself, not in your marriage and not in this relationship.

People, like me, who are pointing out that you are in an affair with a married man are not doing it to judge you or to be mean to you. We are doing it to help you realize that you are in a precarious situation. We are doing it because we are concerned about YOU.


----------



## wringo123

lynn11374 said:


> My ex was very critical and called me awful things on a regular basis, like idiot, retard, loser etc... Despite this I felt tremendous guilt and could not get the courage to leave. I was in counseling for 2 years and it got to the point where he left me. He wanted the divorce and basically threw the paperwork at me to complete and file. This is why I have some sympathy for my bf's situation. I am asking him to have the courage I did not have myself.
> 
> i did learn in counseling how to set boundaries, but for some reason I am not putting them into action. I am afraid he will see me as being selfish and unsupportive, give up on me and leave.


If you think he is the type to give up on you and leave because you insist he proritizes a new life and commitment to you over his old life and commitment to her....why are you even with him?

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


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## *Deidre*

''She's waiting for him to come home,'' you posted in your OP. That sounds like maybe she thinks he will, and that sounds like you have no earthly idea what these two talk about. He might be sleeping with you, living the single life, and hanging onto his wife, trying to figure it all out. That wouldn't be an unusual story on this site. 

I'd end it with this drama king, and stay focused on creating healthy boundaries. Don't ever make someone a priority who makes you nothing more than an option. Right now, you're not a priority...she is. 

I hope things get better for you, but only you can make that happen.


----------



## Livvie

lynn11374 said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> He's paying for his wife's house?????
> 
> You are in a relationship with a man who is providing housing for his wife.
> 
> I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. Why are you okay with your boyfriend paying for his wife's housing?
> 
> 
> 
> His name is on the mortgage and the deed, he has to pay. And even when divorced, he will be paying for her housing for years in the form of alimony.
Click to expand...

You don't know that. If there are no kids and she doesn't have some sort of disability, support is likely to be limited. The longer they stay married and the longer he supports her, the more likely it is he will have to pay support. 

Why doesn't it bother you that he is choosing to remain married to another woman and choosing to provide her housing?

Is he paying for your housing to the extent he pays for hers?


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## NextTimeAround

Just remember.........

While women may be able to fake orgasms, men can fake entire relationships.
-Sharon Stone (I think)


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## Dannip

Wow. 

He got everything he wants without divorce. You held nothing back. So he's not going to change anything. 

Kick him out until his divorce is settled or he never comes back. Date around some more. You're bound to meet a better package than this guy. He's enabled now. 

Choice: 

- Put your foot down on the relationship until he mans up and at least files. 

- Accept things as they are. 

- Break up with him and move on. 

The first and last may result in him waking finally waking up.


----------



## MJJEAN

lynn11374 said:


> Regarding her happiness - she is completely miserable so I don't see how he can be providing for her happiness over mine.
> 
> And regarding this being an affair, I'm not sure I understand that. Nothing about this is secret. isn't it normal for separated people to date? I was not legally divorced either when we started dating, does that mean he was an affair partner?
> 
> As far as him still being emotionally involved with her, I think it's guilt more than anything else. But honestly if that's what holding things up he needs to get over it. I'm not going to date a guy indefinitely who feels too guilty to get a divorce.


To give you an idea of where I'm coming from, I was a WW in my first marriage and left that marriage to be with my final AP. I couldn't afford to file for the divorce for nearly 2 years. My AP and I lived together and had a child together during that time. I was finally able to file, the divorce was final 3 months after the filing, and I married my AP now DH a few weeks later. Believe me, I am not living in a glass house throwing stones here.

Adultery is defined as "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse". So, yes, you are both committing adultery. He's married. They may not be living together, but without a legal separation filing or a divorce filing they are still very much married in the eyes of the law and a good chunk of society. As long as he hasn't filed the papers, he has a wife and you're his mistress. You may be a public mistress who he has introduced to all and sundry, but he's still another woman's husband.

As others have pointed out, as long as they are married she is his next of kin. If he became suddenly ill, she has the legal standing to make decisions regarding everything from choosing recommended courses of treatment to who is allowed to visit should he be unconscious or become incapacitated. If he were to die, she'd be his widow and entitled to his Social Security, his assets, and even his personal possessions. She'd also be who would make his funeral arrangements up to and including where and how he is buried or cremated, what kind of memorial service is performed, and who attends.

Assuming he stays in good health, she's still legally entitled to marital assets. Marital assets is literally everything he owns and even includes his salary. I know in many states, spending marital assets on an AP is a no-no. In a divorce, the assets spent can be recovered by the betrayed spouse. Example: WH buys OW a $6,000 ring. BW has uses financial discovery during the divorce to prove the purchase via bank statement or credit card bill. The court orders WH to pay BW $3,000 as marital assets split 50/50 and legally half the money WH spent belonged to BW.

You mentioned his wife makes half what he does and that he owns a business. I don't think he's going to file simply because he doesn't want to have to open his books to scrutiny during the financial discovery phase and have to pony up the cash and/or assets his wife is entitled to under the law. Between that and any alimony he may have to pay, he'd be taking a financial hit and may even have to adjust his lifestyle. I'd bet it's much less expensive to pay some of her bills and stay married than to divorce her, contested or uncontested. I'd also bet he's hoping she'll meet someone, fall in love, and be so desperate to divorce that she'll take less than she is entitled to just to get it done. In the meantime, he'll play nice so she doesn't rock the boat by filing herself. 

Sure, there's some emotional attachment there, but I'm going with the primary motivation is his own happiness. Not yours and certainly not hers. His. As things stand, he gets to keep the money, keep his wife as a solid Plan B, and keep you. He's got everything he wants and has zero motivation to alter the situation.

(He also gets to keep any shady business practices or imaginative accounting secret. Not saying he's shady or been hiding money/cheating on his taxes, but it's possible. Financial discovery in a divorce often involves a latex glove, lube, and a fine tooth comb. He may be protecting secrets related to his finances and/or business.)

Tell him, seriously, he has 30 days to see an attorney and file for the divorce. A month is plenty of time to select a lawyer, provide copies of pertinent financial documents, and have the papers drawn up, filed, and served.


----------



## turnera

lynn11374 said:


> i did learn in counseling how to set boundaries, but for some reason I am not putting them into action. I am afraid he will see me as being selfish and unsupportive, give up on me and leave.


More therapy is needed. You are still insecure and have low self esteem. If you loved yourself, you'd KNOW that you're a great catch and he's lucky you're still with him. 

And that is the attitude you should be exuding. 'Look, hon, I love you a ton, but I'm not going to sit back and wait this out. If you can't do this one thing, then I don't think you love me as much as you claim to do. So I'm going to start living my life more as a single person, until this gets settled. I'm a great catch, and you have a decision to make.' 

He isn't moving on this because YOU are going along with it. Nothing more.


----------



## Dannip

turnera said:


> More therapy is needed. You are still insecure and have low self esteem. If you loved yourself, you'd KNOW that you're a great catch and he's lucky you're still with him.
> 
> 
> 
> And that is the attitude you should be exuding. 'Look, hon, I love you a ton, but I'm not going to sit back and wait this out. If you can't do this one thing, then I don't think you love me as much as you claim to do. So I'm going to start living my life more as a single person, until this gets settled. I'm a great catch, and you have a decision to make.'
> 
> 
> 
> He isn't moving on this because YOU are going along with it. Nothing more.




Maybe more therapy is not necessary ($$$). She needs to turn inaction into action. Take control of her life. Make decisions impacting her.

Otherwise, she's no different than him. I think she is Quite a lot differently. Right OP?


----------



## lynn11374

turnera said:


> More therapy is needed. You are still insecure and have low self esteem. If you loved yourself, you'd KNOW that you're a great catch and he's lucky you're still with him.
> 
> And that is the attitude you should be exuding. 'Look, hon, I love you a ton, but I'm not going to sit back and wait this out. If you can't do this one thing, then I don't think you love me as much as you claim to do. So I'm going to start living my life more as a single person, until this gets settled. I'm a great catch, and you have a decision to make.'
> 
> He isn't moving on this because YOU are going along with it. Nothing more.


you're right, I'm going along with it. Whenever I bring up the topic I have a hard time refraining from addressing things in an nasty, accusatory manner, and he feels attacked and says that it seems like it's all about my ego and not about my love for him. He says if I love HIM, then I'll be patient and supportive as he does this in the manner and timeline that he needs to do it. he is looking at the big picture and it's worth waiting to achieve a better end result for our financial future and doesn't want all his savings drained in legal fees. He says this is his journey and I will wait with him and be supportive through it if I truly love him. he says he would do the same for me. He points out it took me 2 years before action was taken with my divorce so it's kind of selfish for me to expect him to rush things.


----------



## lynn11374

MJJEAN said:


> To give you an idea of where I'm coming from, I was a WW in my first marriage and left that marriage to be with my final AP. I couldn't afford to file for the divorce for nearly 2 years. My AP and I lived together and had a child together during that time. I was finally able to file, the divorce was final 3 months after the filing, and I married my AP now DH a few weeks later. Believe me, I am not living in a glass house throwing stones here.
> 
> Adultery is defined as "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse". So, yes, you are both committing adultery. He's married. They may not be living together, but without a legal separation filing or a divorce filing they are still very much married in the eyes of the law and a good chunk of society. As long as he hasn't filed the papers, he has a wife and you're his mistress. You may be a public mistress who he has introduced to all and sundry, but he's still another woman's husband.
> 
> As others have pointed out, as long as they are married she is his next of kin. If he became suddenly ill, she has the legal standing to make decisions regarding everything from choosing recommended courses of treatment to who is allowed to visit should he be unconscious or become incapacitated. If he were to die, she'd be his widow and entitled to his Social Security, his assets, and even his personal possessions. She'd also be who would make his funeral arrangements up to and including where and how he is buried or cremated, what kind of memorial service is performed, and who attends.
> 
> Assuming he stays in good health, she's still legally entitled to marital assets. Marital assets is literally everything he owns and even includes his salary. I know in many states, spending marital assets on an AP is a no-no. In a divorce, the assets spent can be recovered by the betrayed spouse. Example: WH buys OW a $6,000 ring. BW has uses financial discovery during the divorce to prove the purchase via bank statement or credit card bill. The court orders WH to pay BW $3,000 as marital assets split 50/50 and legally half the money WH spent belonged to BW.
> 
> You mentioned his wife makes half what he does and that he owns a business. I don't think he's going to file simply because he doesn't want to have to open his books to scrutiny during the financial discovery phase and have to pony up the cash and/or assets his wife is entitled to under the law. Between that and any alimony he may have to pay, he'd be taking a financial hit and may even have to adjust his lifestyle. I'd bet it's much less expensive to pay some of her bills and stay married than to divorce her, contested or uncontested. I'd also bet he's hoping she'll meet someone, fall in love, and be so desperate to divorce that she'll take less than she is entitled to just to get it done. In the meantime, he'll play nice so she doesn't rock the boat by filing herself.
> 
> Sure, there's some emotional attachment there, but I'm going with the primary motivation is his own happiness. Not yours and certainly not hers. His. As things stand, he gets to keep the money, keep his wife as a solid Plan B, and keep you. He's got everything he wants and has zero motivation to alter the situation.
> 
> (He also gets to keep any shady business practices or imaginative accounting secret. Not saying he's shady or been hiding money/cheating on his taxes, but it's possible. Financial discovery in a divorce often involves a latex glove, lube, and a fine tooth comb. He may be protecting secrets related to his finances and/or business.)
> 
> Tell him, seriously, he has 30 days to see an attorney and file for the divorce. A month is plenty of time to select a lawyer, provide copies of pertinent financial documents, and have the papers drawn up, filed, and served.


Was your exH cooperative with the divorce process? Was your current husband supportive of you while you waited for 2 years to file? How did he feel about that?


----------



## Primrose

lynn11374 said:


> His name is on the mortgage and the deed, he has to pay. And even when divorced, he will be paying for her housing for years in the form of alimony.


When they divorce, the mortgage and deed can be settled upon. For example, I was given the house upon my divorce even though my name is not on the loan (since it was the only home our three children knew). He had to sign a deed of trust over into my name which cost about $80. 



lynn11374 said:


> he is looking at the big picture and it's worth waiting to achieve a better end result for our financial future and doesn't want all his savings drained in legal fees.


If you live in an alimony state, the longer he stays "legally" married to her, the longer he'll be paying her alimony. It makes much more sense to end this marriage now to PRESERVE your financial future. Either way, his savings will be drained either through legal fees or more years in alimony.


----------



## MJJEAN

lynn11374 said:


> Was your exH cooperative with the divorce process? Was your current husband supportive of you while you waited for 2 years to file? How did he feel about that?


Long story short, DH and I were both 24 when we met. I was SAHM to 6 and 1 year old children without the skills to even cover daycare costs if I worked and no one who could watch the kids for me. I couldn't afford my rent and utilities, much less a lawyer.

Cutting out details, I lived with my STBX MIL while DH worked, trained for a certificate to get a much better job, helped me and the kids financially, and saved for us to move in together. We needed everything. Furniture, appliances, dishes, linens, first months rent and deposit, etc.

Once we were living in our own place, we were able to save for the divorce. I literally filed as soon as I had the money.

Was he supportive? Yes. Only because he understood I literally couldn't file. Did it bother him and cause friction? Yes. There is no doubt in my mind he'd have left if I'd been able to file and refused to do so. 

My exH was semi-cooperative. 

Your MMs divorce will likely take much more time due to the length of the marriage and the shared assets. What matters isn't so much how long the divorce takes to finalize, but that it is filed and there is measurable forward progress.


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## turnera

lynn11374 said:


> you're right, I'm going along with it. Whenever I bring up the topic I have a hard time refraining from addressing things in an nasty, accusatory manner, and he feels attacked and says that it seems like it's all about my ego and not about my love for him. He says if I love HIM, then I'll be patient and supportive as he does this in the manner and timeline that he needs to do it. he is looking at the big picture and it's worth waiting to achieve a better end result for our financial future and doesn't want all his savings drained in legal fees. He says this is his journey and I will wait with him and be supportive through it if I truly love him. he says he would do the same for me. He points out it took me 2 years before action was taken with my divorce so it's kind of selfish for me to expect him to rush things.


Do you agree with him? If so, why are you posting about it?


----------



## wringo123

lynn11374 said:


> you're right, I'm going along with it. Whenever I bring up the topic I have a hard time refraining from addressing things in an nasty, accusatory manner, and he feels attacked and says that it seems like it's all about my ego and not about my love for him. He says if I love HIM, then I'll be patient and supportive as he does this in the manner and timeline that he needs to do it. he is looking at the big picture and it's worth waiting to achieve a better end result for our financial future and doesn't want all his savings drained in legal fees. He says this is his journey and I will wait with him and be supportive through it if I truly love him. he says he would do the same for me. He points out it took me 2 years before action was taken with my divorce so it's kind of selfish for me to expect him to rush things.




When someone says "If you love me, you will..." Run, it's emotional blackmail and manipulation. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lynn11374

turnera said:


> Do you agree with him? If so, why are you posting about it?


I don't know if I agree. I find it hard to think about the situation objectively because of my love and attraction for him.


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## lynn11374

wringo123 said:


> When someone says "If you love me, you will..." Run, it's emotional blackmail and manipulation.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's not how he worded it, it was more like him wanting me to show him the reason i want him to divorce is because i want to be with him out of love, not because of an ego thing or wanting to "win".


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## MJJEAN

lynn11374 said:


> I don't know if I agree. I find it hard to think about the situation objectively because of my love and attraction for him.


Objectively, he's not divorced because he does not want to be. Why is irrelevant. What is relevant is that he's still legally married, not even separated, and he is showing no signs of changing that status any time soon despite his ability to do so.


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## MJJEAN

lynn11374 said:


> That's not how he worded it, it was more like him wanting me to show him the reason i want him to divorce is because i want to be with him out of love, not because of an ego thing or wanting to "win".


Wow, he's not even being subtly manipulative. This kind of thing is said to deflect and confuse. Don't let it. The issue is his legal marriage and his refusal to end it.


----------



## wringo123

lynn11374 said:


> That's not how he worded it, it was more like him wanting me to show him the reason i want him to divorce is because i want to be with him out of love, not because of an ego thing or wanting to "win".




It's effectively the same thing, even if he didn't word it in exactly the same way. He has put you in a no win situation. You can't prove a negative.

Wanting to be shown respect and having boundaries is not an ego thing or wanting to win. That is classic gas lighting. He has set you up with a false dichotomy. Not going along=you don't love him. And that is simply not true.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lynn11374

MJJEAN said:


> Objectively, he's not divorced because he does not want to be. Why is irrelevant. What is relevant is that he's still legally married, not even separated, and he is showing no signs of changing that status any time soon despite his ability to do so.


Ok, so this goes back to the fact he doesn't understand why I should care so much. yes I get that if he died she would get his assets and I'm totally ok with that as long as it's not an asset I paid into (why I'm not buying a house). Neither he nor I are religious or particularly traditional about our beliefs and don't care about adultery or living in sin as long as there is honesty all around. 

The main issue for me is that we can't move forward in our relationship, like buying a house, while he's still financially connected to her. He asked me to put the mortgage and deed in my name and then add him in later. I don't want to do that because that's allowing him to buy more time to drag his feet.

I sympathize with him on his trepidation because again, I dragged my feet for 2 years. i guess at this point I will let him know he needs to file at the very least before we buy something and I need legal proof she is not entitled to any part of that house. If he is not filed by September (when we moved in together) then I will need to find my own place to live. He gave me the timeline that this will all be settle by the time 2018 rolls around, and i did agree to that.


----------



## Magnesium

lynn11374 said:


> That's not how he worded it, it was more like him wanting me to show him the reason i want him to divorce is because i want to be with him out of love, not because of an ego thing or wanting to "win".


It's like you went from the frying pan (the abusive ex husband) into the fire. This guy is manipulative, and gaslighting you, and is very clearly only concerned with himself.

You should be running as fast as you can in the opposite direction.


----------



## lynn11374

Magnesium said:


> It's like you went from the frying pan (the abusive ex husband) into the fire. This guy is manipulative, and gaslighting you, and is very clearly only concerned with himself.
> 
> You should be running as fast as you can in the opposite direction.


I did feel this way during some of our arguments. When I talk to my friends about this stuff (including my guy friends) they tell me all guys are a-holes, you're just trading one issue with another by switching relationships.


----------



## MJJEAN

lynn11374 said:


> Ok, so this goes back to the fact he doesn't understand why I should care so much. yes I get that if he died she would get his assets and I'm totally ok with that as long as it's not an asset I paid into (why I'm not buying a house). Neither he nor I are religious or particularly traditional about our beliefs and don't care about adultery or living in sin as long as there is honesty all around.
> 
> The main issue for me is that we can't move forward in our relationship, like buying a house, while he's still financially connected to her. He asked me to put the mortgage and deed in my name and then add him in later. I don't want to do that because that's allowing him to buy more time to drag his feet.
> 
> I sympathize with him on his trepidation because again, I dragged my feet for 2 years. i guess at this point I will let him know he needs to file at the very least before we buy something and I need legal proof she is not entitled to any part of that house. If he is not filed by September (when we moved in together) then I will need to find my own place to live. He gave me the timeline that this will all be settle by the time 2018 rolls around, and i did agree to that.


To finish a divorce by 2018, with the assumed need of mediators, forensic accountants, etc. is unrealistic considering he hasn't even filed. I'd be willing to bet that, come 2018, he'll have another excuse. And I'd also bet the very phrase forensic accountant makes him practically break out in hives because he knows he'll owe his wife big once she has a lawyer advising her.

Also, I hesitate to mention it, but am I the only person who read his wife wanted sex about once a month and he sees her about once a month to "talk about a divorce", yet she won't let go and is convinced he'll come back even after years? Maybe she's so certain because he's still sleeping with her occasionally to pacify her. Reality is, you got no clue what he says and does to her when they're "visiting". Have you ever sat down and talked to her?


----------



## wringo123

lynn11374 said:


> I did feel this way during some of our arguments. When I talk to my friends about this stuff (including my guy friends) they tell me all guys are a-holes, you're just trading one issue with another by switching relationships.


Get new friends


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## Magnesium

lynn11374 said:


> I did feel this way during some of our arguments. When I talk to my friends about this stuff (including my guy friends) they tell me all guys are a-holes, you're just trading one issue with another by switching relationships.


Wow. Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and reiterate my previous suggestion to take a few years off from any relationships. 

Of course, I don't expect you'll actually take any of the advice given here and will most likely keep going along to get along until it all blows up in your face. I hope that doesn't happen, but it's the most likely scenario.


----------



## EleGirl

How long have he and his wife been married?


----------



## EleGirl

lynn11374 said:


> Was your exH cooperative with the divorce process? Was your current husband supportive of you while you waited for 2 years to file? How did he feel about that?


You waited 2 years to file.

And your bf was procrastinating his own divorce during those same 2 years. Its not like he was just waiting for you to divorce so you two could get on with your relationship.

Don't you see the hypocrisy from him in this statement?


----------



## turnera

He sounds a bit controlling. Have you looked up the signs?


----------



## Zanne

lynn11374 said:


> I did feel this way during some of our arguments. When I talk to my friends about this stuff (including my guy friends) they tell me all guys are a-holes, you're just trading one issue with another by switching relationships.


Honestly, Lynn, your situation is so similar to my own that I'm having trouble reading some of the advice being given to you because sometimes I have conflicting feelings as well.

Against popular opinion, I agree with what you wrote above about trading one issue with another by switching relationships. I often hear, "Wherever you go, there you are." One reason I have stayed with my boyfriend is because I realize "most" issues that _I_ have start with ME and what I allow in my life. I can only control myself and what I'm okay with.

Personally, I am much healthier person emotionally and physically now that I am away from my ex. That relationship was a train wreck! Sounds like you dealt with a similar scenario. Unfortunately, we often we take our baggage from one failed relationship into the next. You may consider co-dependency as an issue to work through - for both of you.

Your current relationship isn't doomed to fail just because of the way it started. I think your boyfriend genuinely wants this to work, but he may need to work on himself first - and you can't make him. (Don't want to seem too controlling!! ) Maybe already suggested, but some good books are _Codependent No More_ and _No More Mister Nice Guy_; both available as e-books.

Also consider that many relationships at the 3-4 year mark go through a power struggle stage. Google "The 5 Relationship Stages." If you both are willing to put in the work, the end result will be worth all of your struggles. Best of luck to you.


----------



## lynn11374

EleGirl said:


> You waited 2 years to file.
> 
> And your bf was procrastinating his own divorce during those same 2 years. Its not like he was just waiting for you to divorce so you two could get on with your relationship.
> 
> Don't you see the hypocrisy from him in this statement?


BF and I were not together while I was procrastinating. at that time, divorce was just an idea in his head.




> How long have he and his wife been married?


it will be 8 years in September.


----------



## EleGirl

lynn11374 said:


> BF and I were not together while I was procrastinating. at that time, divorce was just an idea in his head.
> 
> it will be 8 years in September.


Would you mind sharing which state he and his wife live in?

In most states, there is little to no alimony in short term marriages. Marriages under 10 years are considered short term generally. Had he divorced her when this fiasco started, if he was obligated to any alimony, it would have been for no more than half the length of the marriage. So 3 years ago, they had been married for 5 years. Half that is 2.5 year max of alimony. Now it's up to 4 years MORE of support he might owe her. Go on for a couple of more years and he might be stuck with life-long alimony depending on the state.

About the house that she lives in. He could sell it and give her 50% of the equity. And the court could force her to accept that.

I doubt that he does not know the laws where he lives. His hanging on to the marriages likely has nothing to do with saving his rear end from alimony and asset division. Why? Because the longer he stays married, the more he has to give her.

But that's what he wants to do. He wants to give her has much as possible. Why do I say that? Because his actions prove that this is his goal.


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## EleGirl

lynn11374,

Please check your private messages and respond.


----------



## lynn11374

Zanne said:


> Honestly, Lynn, your situation is so similar to my own that I'm having trouble reading some of the advice being given to you because sometimes I have conflicting feelings as well.
> 
> Against popular opinion, I agree with what you wrote above about trading one issue with another by switching relationships. I often hear, "Wherever you go, there you are." One reason I have stayed with my boyfriend is because I realize "most" issues that _I_ have start with ME and what I allow in my life. I can only control myself and what I'm okay with.
> 
> Personally, I am much healthier person emotionally and physically now that I am away from my ex. That relationship was a train wreck! Sounds like you dealt with a similar scenario. Unfortunately, we often we take our baggage from one failed relationship into the next. You may consider co-dependency as an issue to work through - for both of you.
> 
> Your current relationship isn't doomed to fail just because of the way it started. I think your boyfriend genuinely wants this to work, but he may need to work on himself first - and you can't make him. (Don't want to seem too controlling!! ) Maybe already suggested, but some good books are _Codependent No More_ and _No More Mister Nice Guy_; both available as e-books.
> 
> Also consider that many relationships at the 3-4 year mark go through a power struggle stage. Google "The 5 Relationship Stages." If you both are willing to put in the work, the end result will be worth all of your struggles. Best of luck to you.


it does sound like we have really similar situations. Thanks for the book suggestions, I do think has an issue with codependency and being "a nice guy". Glad you are in a better place away from your ex. I certainly am as well and no matter what I'm glad I am out of that marriage.


----------



## EleGirl

lynn11374, I merged your two accounts. The super admins are going to have to do some things before your previous thread is visible under your current user name. So here is a link to your previous thread. I think that some reading it might help those who are responding to you here.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...on/358922-both-us-separated-relationship.html

ETA: your first post on that thread is not showing. It's copied a few posts into the thread. I'm hoping that once the super admins to your think that the first post will be back.


----------



## Magnesium

EleGirl said:


> lynn11374, I merged your two accounts. The super admins are going to have to do some things before your previous thread is visible under your current user name. So here is a link to your previous thread. I think that some reading it might help those who are responding to you here.
> 
> 
> ETA: your first post on that thread is not showing. It's copied a few posts into the thread. I'm hoping that once the super admins to your think that the first post will be back.


Oy vey - had I read all of that first, I wouldn't have wasted my time here. 

Good luck with that homemade **** sandwich. Ugh


----------



## Zanne

Hmmm... interesting read. So, it sounds like you're in the same place you were seven months ago. Same. Here's what I decided to do in my case: I have a timeline in my head and there are a couple different outcomes. I also wrote out a five year plan that only pertains to me and my personal goals, both personal and financial.

None of this has been communicated to my boyfriend because, let's face it, it's just going to come across as a threat or another ultimatum and that's never received well, let alone fair. Also, that is not what this is about. It's about taking care of ME, something I have never done. I moved from my parent's house as a teenager to be with my STBXH. Thirty years later, I left my husband to be with another man and he has been supporting me since.

I uprooted my entire life and moved across the country to be with this man, leaving five adult kids, ages 18 to 28, back in my home state. They visit often (paid for by my boyfriend) and they love where we live. He does take very good care of me and doesn't even pressure me about finding a job. BUT, here's my reasoning, and maybe something you should consider, too. What if something happens to him? What if he never divorces his wife? His situation is complicated and he has his own reasons why he hasn't filed, but I think you're right about men not filing for divorce; at least it sure seems that way.

I have a responsibility to look out for myself and my future. That future may continue to include this man, and I sincerely hope it does, but I have to consider and prepare myself if it does not. Currently, I am in no position to give him deadlines, both emotionally and financially, and that makes our relationship lopsided. Does that make sense?

Are you in the position to leave today, if you had to?


----------



## wringo123

lynn11374 said:


> BF and I were not together while I was procrastinating. at that time, divorce was just an idea in his head.


You miss the point. It isn't about how long he is taking to get a divorce, it is about how long he is taking to make a commitment to you. You've been together 1.5 years and it took you 2 years to divorce, which means you filed somewhere around 6 months into the relationship with him. If that's correct, that is somewhat reasonable. 6 months is when couples start to evaluate their relationship and making decision about getting serious. Prior to that, you probably didn't have any urgent reason to get a divorce. 6 months into it, you had the motivation and did it. He had the same six months, where was his motivation? That is why it is hypocritical of him to equate what he is doing with the 2 years it took you to file. Once in the relationship, it only took you 6 months and it is only those 6 months that matter. Again, he is trying to equate two different things to confuse the issue and you.

The fact that you posted here (twice apparently) and have discussed with friends indicates that you know on some level somethings not right about this. 

Does any of this sound familiar? His explanations and excuses sort of make some sense, but they still don’t_ feel _right and they don’t dispel the discomfort of not quite understanding what is really going on. There is still that little tickle in the back of your head that says"yeah, but...". Because you can’t exactly identify or explain exactly what the "but" is, you find yourself trying to rationalize your feelings away so they match up with what he is telling you and what you want to believe. Then you post on message boards and ask advice of friends looking for validation for what you want to believe so you can convince yourself that your gut is wrong and all is right with the world.

This is called cognitive dissonance and it comes from the difference between what you subconsciously know to be real and the objective truth and what you are being told and asked (and want) to believe. It is a classic, hallmark symptom of being manipulated, gaslighted and emotionally abused. It is also a sign that your lizard brain knows what your heart does not want to believe.

I read the previous thread. Because some posts were missing, I didn't get the whole story, but from what I read...the whole "she is suicidal" thing sounds like a big steaming pile of bs. Do you have independent knowledge of this or only what he is telling you? Was she suicidal before he left? If so, what is a "good guy" with an emotionally unstable wife doing on Tinder? "Good Guys" support and help emotionally unstable wives, they aren't on hook up sites doing things that will just send her further over the edge. If her instability killed his love for her and led him to Tinder, why hasn't it led to him getting a divorce? He is too nice to divorce his wife and cause her pain, but he will go on Tinder, find someone else and publicly carry on an affair...I guess because that would not be painful to her. :scratchhead:

I am not trying to be harsh here...just trying to get you to see that what he is telling you makes no sense. You are trying to make sense out of senseless things and it is messing with your mind and emotions. That is not a coincidence.


----------



## MJJEAN

I just read your original thread and am standing by my advice. Her mental state changes nothing. She was mentally unstable before they met, during their marriage, and will likely continue to be mentally unstable in the event of a divorce. If he intends to divorce her for real, she's no longer his responsibility and should be left in the care of mental health professionals.

If she threatens to self harm he should call the authorities, give them all pertinent information, and then stay back and let the doctors and lawyers handle it. If he won't do that, he's still way too attached and you need to move on despite the investments of emotion, time, and relocation. Sunk cost fallacy.


----------



## MJJEAN

wringo123 said:


> Do you have independent knowledge of this or only what he is telling you? Was she suicidal before he left? If so, what is a "good guy" with an emotionally unstable wife doing on Tinder? "Good Guys" support and help emotionally unstable wives, they aren't on hook up sites doing things that will just send her further over the edge. If her instability killed his love for her and led him to Tinder, why hasn't it led to him getting a divorce? He is too nice to divorce his wife and cause her pain, but he will go on Tinder, find someone else and publicly carry on an affair...I guess because that would not be painful to her. :scratchhead:
> 
> I am not trying to be harsh here...just trying to get you to see that what he is telling you makes no sense. You are trying to make sense out of senseless things and it is messing with your mind and emotions. That is not a coincidence.


^^ This. He's too afraid to divorce her because she is threatening harm, yet he has no problem seeking out a mistress online, moving her to his state, living with her publicly, and continuing his marriage to his wife indefinitely. Yeah, that makes sense.

He's not a good guy. He's a coward.


----------



## EleGirl

After reading your previous thread, his 2 years remark makes more sense.

How long were the two of you dating before he left his wife? The impression I'm getting now is that he did not move out, or separate, until late 2016. Is that right? 

If so, that means that he has not been separated 2 years yet.


----------



## EleGirl

MJJEAN said:


> I just read your original thread and am standing by my advice. Her mental state changes nothing. She was mentally unstable before they met, during their marriage, and will likely continue to be mentally unstable in the event of a divorce. If he intends to divorce her for real, she's no longer his responsibility and should be left in the care of mental health professionals.
> 
> If she threatens to self harm he should call the authorities, give them all pertinent information, and then stay back and let the doctors and lawyers handle it. If he won't do that, he's still way too attached and you need to move on despite the investments of emotion, time, and relocation. Sunk cost fallacy.


I agree. What he is doing to his wife by not divorcing her is actually cruel. 

He should let his wife get help from someone other than himself by him stepping out of the picture. Without him in her life, she will be forced to deal with reality. That way she can heal and get on with her life.


----------



## happy as a clam

This is a very unhealthy situation. For the wife, for him, but especially for you.

The only part of this trio-equation you can control is YOU. Time to start looking out for your best interests. They certainly aren't.


----------



## MJJEAN

EleGirl said:


> I agree. What he is doing to his wife by not divorcing her is actually cruel.
> 
> He should let his wife get help from someone other than himself by him stepping out of the picture. Without him in her life, she will be forced to deal with reality. That way she can heal and get on with her life.


Is she not living in reality now? She's married, her husband isn't divorcing her, he's financially assisting her, and they're in regular contact. She really has no logical reason to believe he's not coming back eventually. His actions certainly say he may. Many mentally stable women in her situation have waited while their husbands lived with their mistresses for a time and then came home.


----------



## EleGirl

MJJEAN said:


> Is she not living in reality now? She's married, her husband isn't divorcing her, he's financially assisting her, and they're in regular contact. She really has no logical reason to believe he's not coming back eventually. His actions certainly say he may. Many mentally stable women in her situation have waited while their husbands lived with their mistresses for a time and then came home.


You are right that his wife is living in reality right now. So far, her reality is that her husband is in an affair and he will most likely be back. 

Dr. Harley on Marriage Builders says that in most cases, WS return to their spouse after 2 years after they move to shack up with their affair partner.


----------



## Openminded

I re-read your old thread. In it I had posted "You're free. He's not. The rest doesn't matter." Nothing's changed since then. 

How much longer do you want to wait?


----------



## turnera

MJJEAN said:


> Is she not living in reality now? She's married, her husband isn't divorcing her, he's financially assisting her, and they're in regular contact. She really has no logical reason to believe he's not coming back eventually. His actions certainly say he may. Many mentally stable women in her situation have waited while their husbands lived with their mistresses for a time and then came home.


We've had a few here.


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## turnera

lynn11374 said:


> That's not how he worded it, it was more like him wanting me to show him the reason i want him to divorce is because i want to be with him out of love, not because of an ego thing or wanting to "win".


You realize that's manipulation, right?


----------



## MattMatt

This is where he has the two of you


----------



## lynn11374

wringo123 said:


> You miss the point. It isn't about how long he is taking to get a divorce, it is about how long he is taking to make a commitment to you. You've been together 1.5 years and it took you 2 years to divorce, which means you filed somewhere around 6 months into the relationship with him. If that's correct, that is somewhat reasonable. 6 months is when couples start to evaluate their relationship and making decision about getting serious. Prior to that, you probably didn't have any urgent reason to get a divorce. 6 months into it, you had the motivation and did it. He had the same six months, where was his motivation? That is why it is hypocritical of him to equate what he is doing with the 2 years it took you to file. Once in the relationship, it only took you 6 months and it is only those 6 months that matter. Again, he is trying to equate two different things to confuse the issue and you.
> 
> The fact that you posted here (twice apparently) and have discussed with friends indicates that you know on some level somethings not right about this.
> 
> Does any of this sound familiar? His explanations and excuses sort of make some sense, but they still don’t_ feel _right and they don’t dispel the discomfort of not quite understanding what is really going on. There is still that little tickle in the back of your head that says"yeah, but...". Because you can’t exactly identify or explain exactly what the "but" is, you find yourself trying to rationalize your feelings away so they match up with what he is telling you and what you want to believe. Then you post on message boards and ask advice of friends looking for validation for what you want to believe so you can convince yourself that your gut is wrong and all is right with the world.
> 
> This is called cognitive dissonance and it comes from the difference between what you subconsciously know to be real and the objective truth and what you are being told and asked (and want) to believe. It is a classic, hallmark symptom of being manipulated, gaslighted and emotionally abused. It is also a sign that your lizard brain knows what your heart does not want to believe.
> 
> I read the previous thread. Because some posts were missing, I didn't get the whole story, but from what I read...the whole "she is suicidal" thing sounds like a big steaming pile of bs. Do you have independent knowledge of this or only what he is telling you? Was she suicidal before he left? If so, what is a "good guy" with an emotionally unstable wife doing on Tinder? "Good Guys" support and help emotionally unstable wives, they aren't on hook up sites doing things that will just send her further over the edge. If her instability killed his love for her and led him to Tinder, why hasn't it led to him getting a divorce? He is too nice to divorce his wife and cause her pain, but he will go on Tinder, find someone else and publicly carry on an affair...I guess because that would not be painful to her. :scratchhead:
> 
> I am not trying to be harsh here...just trying to get you to see that what he is telling you makes no sense. You are trying to make sense out of senseless things and it is messing with your mind and emotions. That is not a coincidence.



She was not emotionally unstable prior to him leaving her, however he referred to her as an "odd duck" in the fact that she was extremely attached to her mother who died, and wasn't really interested in forming relationships with others, did not have any friends or even seem interested in being close with the rest of her family. They met on a dating site and an acquaintance of hers created her profile as she was not one to seek out dating partners. She was only suicidal when we was leaving her. I do have evidence of her threatening suicide as it was in text messages I read. She made a comment "don't worry, you'll get everything you want when one day very soon I close my eyes and never open them again"

But you are right, I find myself questioning why our arguments don't feel right. I do believe that guilt is a major player in his inaction.


----------



## lynn11374

Zanne said:


> Hmmm... interesting read. So, it sounds like you're in the same place you were seven months ago. Same. Here's what I decided to do in my case: I have a timeline in my head and there are a couple different outcomes. I also wrote out a five year plan that only pertains to me and my personal goals, both personal and financial.
> 
> None of this has been communicated to my boyfriend because, let's face it, it's just going to come across as a threat or another ultimatum and that's never received well, let alone fair. Also, that is not what this is about. It's about taking care of ME, something I have never done. I moved from my parent's house as a teenager to be with my STBXH. Thirty years later, I left my husband to be with another man and he has been supporting me since.
> 
> I uprooted my entire life and moved across the country to be with this man, leaving five adult kids, ages 18 to 28, back in my home state. They visit often (paid for by my boyfriend) and they love where we live. He does take very good care of me and doesn't even pressure me about finding a job. BUT, here's my reasoning, and maybe something you should consider, too. What if something happens to him? What if he never divorces his wife? His situation is complicated and he has his own reasons why he hasn't filed, but I think you're right about men not filing for divorce; at least it sure seems that way.
> 
> I have a responsibility to look out for myself and my future. That future may continue to include this man, and I sincerely hope it does, but I have to consider and prepare myself if it does not. Currently, I am in no position to give him deadlines, both emotionally and financially, and that makes our relationship lopsided. Does that make sense?
> 
> Are you in the position to leave today, if you had to?


I have been creating timelines in my head too, and have not shared with him for the exact reason you said - it's just never received well. I could technically leave today from a financial standpoint. It would be hard to pick up and move, and I would have to relocate again and pay all the bills on my own and pay dog sitters when I travel. It would really suck, but I could do it. It's more of the emotional impact.


----------



## Blondilocks

At some point (I hope), your conscience will kick in and you will realize how unbelievably cruel you and he are being to his wife. He dated another woman for a year(?) while still living with her, moved in with said woman and parades her around on his family vacations. All the while, playing nicey-nice so he can get out of paying her proper due in a divorce. Not filing for divorce has nothing to do with not 'hurting' her - that ship sailed a long time ago.

If you think you are special, think again. He will do the exact same thing to you in the future. That's the kind of person he is. And, apparently, his family are hunky-dory with it all.:wtf:


----------



## jld

lynn11374 said:


> I have been creating timelines in my head too, and have not shared with him for the exact reason you said - it's just never received well. I could technically leave today from a financial standpoint. It would be hard to pick up and move, and I would have to relocate again and pay all the bills on my own and pay dog sitters when I travel. It would really suck, but I could do it. It's more of the emotional impact.


It would hurt at first. Breakups always do. But long term you would likely be much happier.


----------



## Dannip

Break up with him now. You can always get back together once he is divorced. In the mean time let him know you're free to date. 

If he does not file fast, he's telling you something. That he ain't your type after all.


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## lynn11374

Blondilocks said:


> At some point (I hope), your conscience will kick in and you will realize how unbelievably cruel you and he are being to his wife. He dated another woman for a year(?) while still living with her, moved in with said woman and parades her around on his family vacations. All the while, playing nicey-nice so he can get out of paying her proper due in a divorce. Not filing for divorce has nothing to do with not 'hurting' her - that ship sailed a long time ago.
> 
> If you think you are special, think again. He will do the exact same thing to you in the future. That's the kind of person he is. And, apparently, his family are hunky-dory with it all.:wtf:


He said he warned her throughout their marriage this would happen if she kept rejecting him and making him feel unwanted and unattractive every day. Now that it happened she claims she can fix everything. It angers him that only when he left and lost any desire for her, does she want to work on the marriage.

Regarding his family, I do think it raised eyebrows but they didn't like his wife very much.


----------



## Blondilocks

So, what about your conscience?


----------



## Openminded

He's waiting for her to find someone else so then he doesn't have to worry about the possibility of her attempting to kill herself because he dumped her. But she doesn't want someone else. So he's trying to slowly ease her into a divorce she doesn't want and won't agree to. Guess where that leaves you?


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## lynn11374

Openminded said:


> He's waiting for her to find someone else so then he doesn't have to worry about the possibility of her attempting to kill herself because he dumped her. But she doesn't want someone else. So he's trying to slowly ease her into a divorce she doesn't want and won't agree to. Guess where that leaves you?


yes that exactly sums it up. He's waiting for conditions that are never going to happen. That leave me patiently waiting and waiting and waiting until who knows how long.


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## wringo123

Blondilocks said:


> So, what about your conscience?


Think hard about that one. As I mentioned, I was in her place and you are both causing her immense pain. I despised my x and had no desire to reconcile , but what he did was beyond humiliating and hurtful.

Once, I picked up the phone and it was a friend of his I did not know. He called me by her name. When I corrected him he apologized and said he didn't know xh had been married before. He was dumbfounded when I told him x had not been married before, he was still married to me. We were together 20 years and his "friends" had no idea me or my kids even existed. That still stings.

His family, mutual friends, my kids, and even my own siblings accepted her as part of their lives and family...even if some of them had to hold their nose to do it. She was 'integrated', just like you. I was excluded from family and social activities and events that I had been a part of for 20 years because my presence just made everyone uncomfortable. She was immediately and unconditionally accepted. He unapologetically flaunted his total lack of respect for me in front of the whole world while at the same time telling me how awful he felt that he just couldn't stick it out and make it work. I don't even have the words to describe the humilation I felt.

I don't tell you this to make you feel guilty, but so you know that I understand the type of man who could do that and realize that is not the type you want to be with.

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


----------



## wringo123

lynn11374 said:


> But you are right, I find myself questioning why our arguments don't feel right. I do believe that guilt is a major player in his inaction.


If you truly believed, in your heart of hearts that guilt is behind his inaction, then your arguments would "feel right" because what your gut is telling you would line up with what he is telling you.

Below are signs that you are being manipulated. Just from what you have shared here...it is clear that many, if not most, apply to you. 

Your joy at finding love has turned into the fear of losing it. Your feelings have gone from happiness and euphoria to anxiety, sadness and even desperation.
• Your mood depends entirely on the state of the relationship, and you are experiencing extreme highs and lows.
• You’re unhappy in the relationship and uncertain about it much of the time, yet you dread losing it because you're blissfully happy every now and then. 
• You feel like you're responsible for ruining the best thing that ever happened to you, but you're not sure how.
• Your relationship feels very complex, although you're don't know why. When talking to others about it, you might find yourself saying “It’s hard to explain. It's just really complicated."
• You continually obsess about the relationship, analyzing every detail repeatedly in a desperate attempt to “figure it out.” You talk about it all the time to anyone who will listen. It doesn't do any good.
• You never feel sure of where you stand with your partner, which leaves you in a perpetual state of uncertainty and anxiety. 
• You frequently ask your partner if something is wrong. It really does feel as if something's wrong, but you are not sure what it is.
• You are frequently on the defensive. You feel misunderstood and have the need to explain and defend yourself.
• You seem to have developed a problem with trust, jealousy, insecurity, anger or overreaction, which your partner has pointed out to you on many occasions. 
• You feel ongoing anger or resentment for someone. 
• You have become a detective. You scour the web for information about your partner, keep a close eye on his or her social media accounts, and feel a need to check their web search history, texts or emails. When they are not at home, you have a desire to verify their whereabouts as you worry about where they really are.
• You feel that you don’t truly know how to make your partner happy. You try hard but nothing seems to work, at least not for long. You used to make them very happy and you're not sure what's changed. 
• Expressing negative thoughts and emotions feels restricted or even forbidden, so you try to keep those things to yourself. You feel frustrated at being unable to talk about things that are bothering you.
• You don’t feel as good about yourself as you did before the relationship. You feel less confident, less secure, less intelligent, less sane, less trusting, less attractive or in some other way “less than” what you were before.
• You always feel you’re falling short of your partner’s expectations. You feel inadequate.
• You often feel guilty and find yourself apologizing a lot. You continually try to repair damage you believe you've caused. You blame yourself for your partner pulling away from you. You can't understand why you keep sabotaging the relationship.
• You carefully control your words, actions and emotions around your partner to keep him or her from withdrawing their affection again. 
• At times, you erupt like an emotional volcano filled with anger, frustration and even hostility. You have never acted this way before and vow that you will stop, but no matter how hard you try it keeps happening. 
• You do things you aren't really comfortable with or that go against your values, limits or boundaries, in order to make your partner happy and keep the relationship intact.

I am bowing out now, good luck to you.


----------



## happy as a clam

Excellent list, @wringo123.


----------



## Zanne

wringo123 said:


> Below are signs that you are being manipulated. Just from what you have shared here...it is clear that many, if not most, apply to you.


Actually, I think Lynn is a strong person, stronger than she realizes. That list is a great reference for anyone who struggles with sticking up for themselves or even someone with people pleasing tendencies.

I think Lynn can stick up for herself, but consider that her partner is going through one of life's most stressful events, divorce. According to the Holmes and Rahe Stress Scale, divorce is 2nd on the list and marital separation is 3rd. Death of a spouse is the top most stressful event in one's life. Even though he initiated the separation and divorce process, it's still an extremely stressful time in his life, as I'm sure anyone who has gone through it can attest to. Of course he put the cart before the horse and started a relationship before being divorced. It's his soft landing - we already know men tend to do this when they're leaving a relationship.

More concerning is what his indecision says about his character. IMHO his past choices/mistakes needn't doom their relationship. People can change for the better. If I were Lynn, I would watch for signs that he is remorseful for his choices in the past, realizes mistakes were made, and recognizes that his behavior and character weaknesses got him to where he is now. That doesn't mean that he will press on with the divorce according to her schedule. She can accept his pace and support him or move on. Again, having a deadline in her mind would be helpful. The ball is in her court. He's not manipulating her.

One last thing, I think his concern for the well being of his ex is admirable, so long as he maintains boundaries. It's a far cry from some of the stories we read around here.


----------



## *Deidre*

lynn11374 said:


> He said he warned her throughout their marriage this would happen if she kept rejecting him and making him feel unwanted and unattractive every day. Now that it happened she claims she can fix everything. It angers him that only when he left and lost any desire for her, does she want to work on the marriage.
> 
> Regarding his family, I do think it raised eyebrows but they didn't like his wife very much.


Beware of men who paint their exes as crazy lunatics who treated them like crap every day. I would run so fast from this guy, honestly. Why you're not...has more to do with you, than him. Or her. Just food for thought.


----------



## lynn11374

Wanted to provide a small update. It's baby steps, but he has cleared all his belongings out of the house his wife is living in, and reached out to her to schedule the first appointment with the mediator. Unfortunately she now has an eye infection that's making her miserable and has a surgery scheduled for next week. So he told her to heal up and when she's ready they will go to the mediator. I'm trying not to get frustrated as there's nothing that can be done about this condition, but at least he is making the steps.

I also told him once he is legally financially independent of her, only then will I buy a house with him. It kind of sucks because I am throwing away money on rent but I couldn't afford a house around here on my own if I were single anyway.


----------



## samyeagar

lynn11374 said:


> Wanted to provide a small update. It's baby steps, but he has cleared all his belongings out of the house his wife is living in, and reached out to her to schedule the first appointment with the mediator. Unfortunately she now has an eye infection that's making her miserable and has a surgery scheduled for next week. So he told her to heal up and when she's ready they will go to the mediator. I'm trying not to get frustrated as there's nothing that can be done about this condition, but at least he is making the steps.
> 
> I also told him once he is legally financially independent of her, only then will I buy a house with him. It kind of sucks because I am throwing away money on rent but I couldn't afford a house around here on my own if I were single anyway.


Meh...buying is over rated in most markets right now anyway. It takes so long to build any kind of significant equity in a house that it's nothing more than renting from the bank with the added bonus of being responsible for all maintenance and upkeep, and lack of mobility without huge financial losses.


----------



## Zanne

lynn11374 said:


> Wanted to provide a small update. It's baby steps, but he has cleared all his belongings out of the house his wife is living in, and reached out to her to schedule the first appointment with the mediator. Unfortunately she now has an eye infection that's making her miserable and has a surgery scheduled for next week. So he told her to heal up and when she's ready they will go to the mediator. I'm trying not to get frustrated as there's nothing that can be done about this condition, but at least he is making the steps.
> 
> I also told him once he is legally financially independent of her, only then will I buy a house with him. It kind of sucks because I am throwing away money on rent but I couldn't afford a house around here on my own if I were single anyway.


Well, be prepared for another long delay, possibly several months or more. As you said, it's baby steps. At least there is progress. Neither of them seem motivated to get this thing moving. Renting is probably best at this point since the situation is fluid. I feel your pain! I can't even afford to rent where I live. Hang in there and focus on YOU.


----------



## lynn11374

Yeah you guys are right, no need to rush into buying property right now. So much money goes towards interest so I'm paying a bank instead of a landlord.

interesting that his wife accused him of trying to rush things all of a sudden. I would say it's hardly been a rush at this pace! Especially since he's willing to wait for her surgery, for a stye in her eye of all things. Thought they went away on their own, but apparently not in this case. either way I'm expecting this mediation appointment to take place after she's healed and I'm not accepting anything else.


----------



## *Deidre*

lynn11374 said:


> Yeah you guys are right, no need to rush into buying property right now. So much money goes towards interest so I'm paying a bank instead of a landlord.
> 
> interesting that his wife accused him of trying to rush things all of a sudden. I would say it's hardly been a rush at this pace! Especially since he's willing to wait for her surgery, for a stye in her eye of all things. Thought they went away on their own, but apparently not in this case. either way I'm expecting this mediation appointment to take place after she's healed and I'm not accepting anything else.


This is just more stalling. People get divorced EVERY SINGLE DAY. Despite illnesses, diseases, and everything else. This is her stalling.

Take this fwiw, but this woman will always be in your life...after the divorce, even. If that ever happens. It's not her...it's him. I would not move forward with this guy, until it's officially over. There's something about this that seems like he can't let go, either.

I may be totally wrong, but it's just a feeling I get reading your story. Trust me, after this surgery, there'll be another reason things are going to take forever. She is always going to be in your life, and you have to ask yourself...do I want to always have this woman in my relationship?


----------



## Livvie

lynn11374 said:


> Yeah you guys are right, no need to rush into buying property right now. So much money goes towards interest so I'm paying a bank instead of a landlord.
> 
> interesting that his wife accused him of trying to rush things all of a sudden. I would say it's hardly been a rush at this pace! Especially since he's willing to wait for her surgery, for a stye in her eye of all things. Thought they went away on their own, but apparently not in this case. either way I'm expecting this mediation appointment to take place after she's healed and I'm not accepting anything else.


His wife "accused" him of trying to rush things? Why the word accuse? It implies something wrong. He doesn't want to be married to her anymore. He wants to get the show on the road. Why is there ANY negative connotation to getting it done? 

Someday you will look back upon this situation and wonder how any of it felt okay to you.


----------



## *Deidre*

Livvie said:


> His wife "accused" him of trying to rush things? Why the word accuse? It implies something wrong. He doesn't want to be married to her anymore. He wants to get the show on the road. Why is there ANY negative connotation to getting it done?
> 
> Someday you will look back upon this situation and wonder how any of it felt okay to you.


That's a great point. Yea, there's something about this whole thing that doesn't seem right to me. I think honestly? He likes having the attention of both women...feeling like his wife can't let go, and his gf is jealous and waiting on him to divorce. (not that you're jealous, OP, but he may have this illusion in his mind)

This is why I've always thought it's unwise to get involved with someone until they're officially divorced. Essentially, you're involved with a married guy who isn't moving things along. In my opinion, you could do better than waiting on a married guy to get a divorce, who seems to be hesitant to do so for some reason. And I don't believe that's all his wife's doing. This is why you come to TAM, so we can help you see the forest through the trees.


----------



## Adelais

lynn11374 said:


> That's not how he worded it, it was more like him wanting me to show him the reason i want him to divorce is because i want to be with him out of love, not because of an ego thing or wanting to "win".


How is his going through with divorcing the wife he does not love make you "win"? He is comparing apples and oranges. Does he communicate (manipulate) that way often?

It sounds like he is able to talk you into a pretzel to make himself right and you wrong. Do you want your mind to be manipulated like that for the rest of your life?

You came to this website to get other people's opinions on your situation. I think that your coming here could be a huge gift to yourself. The guy isn't ready for a committed relationship, although he has used smoke and mirrors to convince you that he is in one with you. All you are right now is a woman on the side, while he decides what to do in his marriage.

Leaving his wife was mean. Living with you is mean and humiliating to his wife. Not filing for divorce is mean, although he has tried to convince you that he is actually being compassionate to her by not filing for divorce. Stringing you along is mean. The guy does not sound like a catch, but manipulative and selfish.

I agree with what the other posters have said: he has his cake and is eating it too. He has a woman who not only shares his bed, but who helps pay the bills, and he doesn't have any legal obligations to her while he keeps seeing his wife whom he probably still loves. If he didn't love her he would divorce her ASAP so he can date you without reservation. He is dragging his feet because he can...you are willing to wait indefinitely. Why wait until the end of the year for him to file? Why not just move out and tell him to call you when he is divorced?

If he loved you he would not keep you as a mistress, but would make you his wife.

Something that might help you see yourself clearly is reading on Love Shack. There are plenty of women there who are involved with married men who refuse to divorce their wives. You think your case is special, but it is not.


----------



## happy as a clam

OP, you really should rethink this. You're not seeing things clearly--you're seeing him through a skewed lens, the way you WANT him to be.

He's not that person.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

lynn11374 said:


> Wanted to provide a small update. It's baby steps, but he has cleared all his belongings out of the house his wife is living in, and reached out to her to schedule the first appointment with the mediator. Unfortunately she now has an eye infection that's making her miserable and has a surgery scheduled for next week. So he told her to heal up and when she's ready they will go to the mediator. I'm trying not to get frustrated as there's nothing that can be done about this condition, but at least he is making the steps.


Soooo....

Except for getting the last of his stuff from the house, nothing's changed. Every month he 'reaches out to her' and every month they dance their dysfunctional little dance and do God knows WHAT behind closed doors. Every month it's another excuse to do nothing. This month, it's a 'stye.' Can't wait to hear next month's excuse. Do these two spin the excuse wheel every month and whatever it lands on, that's what they go with?

Does Rico Suave realize that after 10 years of marriage, his wife will be entitled to a portion of his retirement/401k if he's got one? 

Good thing you're paying half the bills. He needed *someone* to do it so he can continue supporting his wife. You need to realize your financial contribution is _everything _to him right now. Don't believe me? Mention you'll be getting your own place and watch him **** his pants. But it won't be from a broken heart.

I'm still trying to figure out WHICH one of you is the OW at this point...


----------



## Zanne

Lynn, he is getting credit for progress on his divorce when it has barely started. Was the mediator appointment even made? It's all thoughts and intentions at this point, which do not guarantee any security for you (not just talking about finances).

I think he wants to be seen as a nice guy and he's got himself in a situation where that's not possible. I would stay guarded and keep my options open. Hang in there.


----------



## chillymorn69

this mans moral character is suspect . if he cheated with you he will cheat on you.

you can do better and you know it . pull the plug and find someone worthy of your love and generosity.


----------



## Blondilocks

And, once again, Lynn is at the bottom of the totem pole. His wife takes top place.

Has it occurred to you that he may be stalling the divorce because then he'd have to make a commitment to you and he doesn't want to jump from the frying pan into the fire? His wife is the excuse for not committing to your relationship.


----------



## lynn11374

You all here on TAM have been super helpful, thank you for helping me make sense of everything.

So we had a talk,which became an argument as usual. He said he and his wife agreed to reconvene after labor day when she's healed from the stye surgery. I got really upset that it would be another month until they talked about discussing how they were dividing things and he felt attacked by me. Said he doesn't understand why I'm acting like I'm some OW who he sees on the weekends. I am getting all of his time, love and attention and she sits in her house alone. He is not prioritizing her he says. He's not in love with his wife, he is desperate to make sure that this goes amicably so she doesn't do something vindictive and hire a lawyer and clear out his business assets, and also he's not going to force her while she's dealing with a temporary health issue . Right now she thinks he's being a pushy jerk about the divorce and he's worried he will face backlash. He said he won't accept any more reasons to delay this after the surgery.

So it ended with him basically saying he couldn't talk about this anymore and walked out, now we are fighting and I'm feeling miserable.


----------



## samyeagar

lynn11374 said:


> You all here on TAM have been super helpful, thank you for helping me make sense of everything.
> 
> So we had a talk,which became an argument as usual. He said he and his wife agreed to reconvene after labor day when she's healed from the stye surgery. I got really upset that it would be another month until they talked about discussing how they were dividing things and he felt attacked by me. Said he doesn't understand why I'm acting like I'm some OW who he sees on the weekends. I am getting all of his time, love and attention and she sits in her house alone. He is not prioritizing her he says. He's not in love with his wife, he is desperate to make sure that this goes amicably so she doesn't do something vindictive and hire a lawyer and clear out his business assets, and also he's not going to force her while she's dealing with a temporary health issue . Right now she thinks he's being a pushy jerk about the divorce and he's worried he will face backlash. He said he won't accept any more reasons to delay this after the surgery.
> 
> So it ended with him basically saying he couldn't talk about this anymore and walked out, now we are fighting and I'm feeling miserable.


Ok. Take the specifics of the divorce and the ex and all of that out of the picture, and try and look at it in more general terms. How is he dealing with stress? How does he resolve conflict? How is he prioritizing things? There will be other stressful situations that will come up in your life together if you choose to stay on this road. Knowing what you are seeing now, how do you think you will end up feeling in those situations? Is this what you want? Same behaviours, different specifics?


----------



## Blondilocks

Honestly! Why do you want a guy who openly tells you he's trying to screw his wife financially in a divorce? If he does this with her, he'll treat you the same way. It's how he operates. Step back and really assess this guy's character. The concept of 'fairness' seems to be foreign to him. He doesn't care who he hurts as long as he gets his way.


----------



## lynn11374

he's wiling to be very fair to her financially, it's that HE doesn't want to get screwed over which probably will happen if she hires a lawyer.


----------



## lynn11374

Zanne said:


> Lynn, he is getting credit for progress on his divorce when it has barely started. Was the mediator appointment even made? It's all thoughts and intentions at this point, which do not guarantee any security for you (not just talking about finances).
> 
> I think he wants to be seen as a nice guy and he's got himself in a situation where that's not possible. I would stay guarded and keep my options open. Hang in there.



yes you are right, and no the mediator appointment was not made. Apparently he had told her a while back that maybe they can do this without a mediator (she had suggested the mediator) and he said maybe they can do without one. Now she is bringing that up again that he said that. So it doesn't sound like they solidified the use of a mediator for this process.


----------



## lynn11374

samyeagar said:


> Ok. Take the specifics of the divorce and the ex and all of that out of the picture, and try and look at it in more general terms. How is he dealing with stress? How does he resolve conflict? How is he prioritizing things? There will be other stressful situations that will come up in your life together if you choose to stay on this road. Knowing what you are seeing now, how do you think you will end up feeling in those situations? Is this what you want? Same behaviours, different specifics?


I'v definitely thought about this. He said part of the reason for the delay is that this is a very uncomfortable process for him. I told him that my ex and I managed it and he said his situation is different. Not sure how, but I think he means that it's not mutual, his wife doesn't want the divorce and he has felt tremendous guilt. But I was married twice as long as he was and was a lot closer to my ex's family. So it's not like it was easy for me either.


----------



## samyeagar

lynn11374 said:


> I'v definitely thought about this. He said part of the reason for the delay is that this is a very uncomfortable process for him. I told him that my ex and I managed it and he said his situation is different. Not sure how, but I think he means that it's not mutual, his wife doesn't want the divorce and he has felt tremendous guilt. But I was married twice as long as he was and was a lot closer to my ex's family. So it's not like it was easy for me either.


Wah! Life is tough sometimes. We all have to deal with uncomfortable unpleassmt, and difficult situations. Part of being an adult.


----------



## *Deidre*

lynn11374 said:


> I'v definitely thought about this. He said part of the reason for the delay is that this is a very uncomfortable process for him. I told him that my ex and I managed it and he said his situation is different. Not sure how, but I think he means that it's not mutual, his wife doesn't want the divorce and he has felt tremendous guilt. But I was married twice as long as he was and was a lot closer to my ex's family. So it's not like it was easy for me either.


He wants to stay married, and keep you. Like I said a few posts back, he likes this feeling of being wanted by two women, and it has nothing to do with guilt. Guilt over what, anyways? 

I'm actually worried for you that he isn't considering a divorce at all, and tells his wife that he just ''needs space.'' While he tells you something else. I honestly think you should end this, and not wait on him...but go live your own life, and if he returns, divorced...it was meant to be. If he doesn't, and you find someone new, that was meant to be.

I just think he is playing you and his wife, the more I read your story.


----------



## samyeagar

*Deidre* said:


> He wants to stay married, and keep you. Like I said a few posts back, he likes this feeling of being wanted by two women, and it has nothing to do with guilt. Guilt over what, anyways?
> 
> I'm actually worried for you that he isn't considering a divorce at all, and tells his wife that he just ''needs space.'' While he tells you something else. I honestly think you should end this, and not wait on him...but go live your own life, and if he returns, divorced...it was meant to be. If he doesn't, and you find someone new, that was meant to be.
> 
> *I just think he is playing you and his wife, the more I read your story*.


Yeah, I think so too. From my own experience, I ended a 17 year marriage to a diagnosed NPD women, with three kids together, and I did it from filing to final judgement in four months. Yeah, it was unpleasant to say the lest. High conflict. But it had to be done, so I did it.


----------



## Blondilocks

lynn11374 said:


> he's wiling to be very fair to her financially, it's that HE doesn't want to get screwed over which probably will happen if she hires a lawyer.


Since there are no kids in the picture, what she is entitled to would be fairly cut and dried according to the state's guidelines. The longer they wait to divorce, the bigger her slice of pie. So, just what is he trying to hide from her?


----------



## *Deidre*

samyeagar said:


> Yeah, I think so too. From my own experience, I ended a 17 year marriage to a diagnosed NPD women, with three kids together, and I did it from filing to final judgement in four months. Yeah, it was unpleasant to say the lest. High conflict. But it had to be done, so I did it.


Yes, and this guy's wife sounds like she could be the same, but something else sounds strange to me. And I could totally see him playing both of them, which is why the wife is hanging on.


----------



## Adelais

Like @Blondilocks said, with no children in the picture, the divorce should be a simple 50/50 split...unless he wants to give her less than 50%. Knowing that, how could you ever trust him with your own assets and financial future?

How long have they been married? What were their individual assets before marriage? Did he have a lot more than she had and he doesn't want her to to take 50%? That is the only logical reason I can see for his not wanting her to get a lawyer.

He doesn't want her to get a lawyer because he wants to bully her unimpeded. That is what he is doing to you right now as well.

Why can't they meet more often than once a month in order to settle the details for the divorce? That is an arbitrary time frame, and you don't have to buy into it. Nothing is stopping him from filing for divorce except for himself.

A sty? A person does not need weeks to recuperate from having a sty lanced. That is just another excuse your husband is using to hide the fact that he is just not ready to divorce his wife.


----------



## lynn11374

*Deidre* said:


> Yes, and this guy's wife sounds like she could be the same, but something else sounds strange to me. And I could totally see him playing both of them, which is why the wife is hanging on.


I believe she has some sort of schizoid personality disorder, the description I read describers her to the T. I do think he is playing both of us in the sense of trying to placate us by throwing crumbs in both directions to keep himself from having to deal with our emotional reactions until he feels he is ready. I do believe he truly saw the tiny steps he has taken as being really really big and important and is upset that I am not giving him props. But I have read text messages between them and it is clear he is telling her he wants to move this forward, but she should now focus on getting healthy again. He is trying to do the dance of wanting to push her but not be a jerk who's forcing a woman in physical and emotional pain to go through even more pain.


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## lynn11374

Araucaria said:


> Like @Blondilocks said, with no children in the picture, the divorce should be a simple 50/50 split...unless he wants to give her less than 50%. Knowing that, how could you ever trust him with your own assets and financial future?
> 
> How long have they been married? What were their individual assets before marriage? Did he have a lot more than she had and he doesn't want her to to take 50%? That is the only logical reason I can see for his not wanting her to get a lawyer.
> 
> He doesn't want her to get a lawyer because he wants to bully her unimpeded. That is what he is doing to you right now as well.
> 
> Why can't they meet more often than once a month in order to settle the details for the divorce? That is an arbitrary time frame, and you don't have to buy into it. Nothing is stopping him from filing for divorce except for himself.
> 
> A sty? A person does not need weeks to recuperate from having a sty lanced. That is just another excuse your husband is using to hide the fact that he is just not ready to divorce his wife.



good question from you and @Blondilocks about the financial split. He had pretty much NO assets before the marriage. Told me he was broke and had nothing Maybe what he feels is fair IS less than 50%. he only starting making more money from her during the last couple of years, only recently did the business grow. I don't know. Yes, maybe that's why he doesn't want a lawyer, he will lose control of the process and outcome.

that's what I thought about a sty, I had one years ago and it went away in a few days.


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## lynn11374

samyeagar said:


> Yeah, I think so too. From my own experience, I ended a 17 year marriage to a diagnosed NPD women, with three kids together, and I did it from filing to final judgement in four months. Yeah, it was unpleasant to say the lest. High conflict. But it had to be done, so I did it.


wow, that must have been difficult. The whole thing.


----------



## samyeagar

lynn11374 said:


> wow, that must have been difficult. The whole thing.


It was, but you know the old saying...some times you just gotta man up.


----------



## *Deidre*

How long was he separated before meeting you?


----------



## Zanne

lynn11374 said:


> I do believe he truly saw the tiny steps he has taken as being really really big and important and is upset that I am not giving him props.


I agree, I think he feels like he's in a no win situation with no friends on either side. He sounds conflict-avoidant. It's maddening dealing with people like this.

I heard this quote from James MacDonald on my morning podcast: "Nothing is different until we think differently." The podcast was about family strongholds. People learn to avoid conflict in childhood. The good news is you can break free of these patterns of thinking. But you have to do it for yourself. So you can't make your boyfriend do anything, you can only set boundaries for yourself.

Have you considered the 180 plan? It is usually recommended to people who are dealing with a cheating partner, so I don't think most would agree with my suggestion here, but ultimately the 180 is for your own self confidence. You don't have to be a jerk to him, just focus on being happy with yourself. Act as if you don't care what happens to his marriage. That's his deal. You may start to see him in a different light.

I'm in a similar position, so I don't agree with others here who say your boyfriend is trying to screw his wife over in their divorce. I think he just wants to take a magic pill and have the whole thing be over and not end up homeless. Just because other people got their divorce done in four months, doesn't mean it can happen for your boyfriend. You may consider how his inaction on this divorce process is giving you a glimpse into your future with him, unless he confronts his conflict avoidant emotional issues.


----------



## samyeagar

Zanne said:


> I agree, I think he feels like he's in a no win situation with no friends on either side. He sounds conflict-avoidant. It's maddening dealing with people like this.
> 
> I heard this quote from James MacDonald on my morning podcast: "Nothing is different until we think differently." The podcast was about family strongholds. People learn to avoid conflict in childhood. The good news is you can break free of these patterns of thinking. But you have to do it for yourself. So you can't make your boyfriend do anything, you can only set boundaries for yourself.
> 
> Have you considered the 180 plan? It is usually recommended to people who are dealing with a cheating partner, so I don't think most would agree with my suggestion here, but ultimately the 180 is for your own self confidence. You don't have to be a jerk to him, just focus on being happy with yourself. Act as if you don't care what happens to his marriage. That's his deal. You may start to see him in a different light.
> 
> I'm in a similar position, so I don't agree with others here who say your boyfriend is trying to screw his wife over in their divorce. I think he just wants to take a magic pill and have the whole thing be over and not end up homeless.* Just because other people got their divorce done in four months, doesn't mean it can happen for your boyfriend.* You may consider how his inaction on this divorce process is giving you a glimpse into your future with him, unless he confronts his conflict avoidant emotional issues.


Of course not, but based on actual tangible movement just since she has known him, ignoring the time before she knew him when they supposedly separated, project the actions actually taken so far, and not relying on the so far empty words, he will have the divorce finalized in oh, about never.


----------



## Zanne

samyeagar said:


> Of course not, but based on actual tangible movement just since she has known him, ignoring the time before she knew him when they supposedly separated, project the actions actually taken so far, and not relying on the so far empty words, he will have the divorce finalized in oh, about never.


Yep, I agree. I just think she needs to establish a timeline for herself. She can't push him to get divorced; that gets very sticky.

Lynn, you should decide for yourself how long you are willing to wait, unless you are cool with the current cohabitating situation. I wasn't and I told my boyfriend my reasons why I wasn't okay with it. I told him that I don't want him to waste his time with me and vice versa if we have different goals in mind. I left it at that and try really hard to hold my tongue regarding any divorce matters, unless he's asking for my opinion.

I'm a procrastinator myself. It took me four years to prepare my divorce paperwork, mostly because I just didn't want to deal with it. It sure felt good to put that chapter behind me though! It was actually easier than I thought.

The main point I'm trying to make is that you are experiencing your first huge conflict with your boyfriend and how you settle this one will establish a pattern going forward. There are some red flags obviously. On the positive side, it looks like he truly wants to move forward with a life with you.


----------



## samyeagar

Zanne said:


> Yep, I agree. I just think she needs to establish a timeline for herself. She can't push him to get divorced; that gets very sticky.
> 
> Lynn, you should decide for yourself how long you are willing to wait, unless you are cool with the current cohabitating situation. I wasn't and I told my boyfriend my reasons why I wasn't okay with it. I told him that I don't want him to waste his time with me and vice versa if we have different goals in mind. I left it at that and try really hard to hold my tongue regarding any divorce matters, unless he's asking for my opinion.
> 
> I'm a procrastinator myself. It took me four years to prepare my divorce paperwork, mostly because I just didn't want to deal with it. It sure felt good to put that chapter behind me though! It was actually easier than I thought.
> 
> The main point I'm trying to make is that you are experiencing your first huge conflict with your boyfriend and how you settle this one will establish a pattern going forward. There are some red flags obviously. *On the positive side, it looks like he truly wants to move forward with a life with you*.


The jury is still out on how his wife will fit into that picture though.

I really think the absolute easiest and best first step would simply be him filing the papers with the court. It does not actually obligate anyone to anything, does not require any agreement as to property and financial asset and liability division. From a practical standpoint, the filing itself is pretty meaningless in that it doesn't actually do anything. Doesn't force anyone to a timeline, and can be pulled at any time with no obligations.

That said, it is also a tangible, visible gesture. I do not think it unreasonable for Lynne to lay it out directly. File within 30 days, or I am moving on.


----------



## Zanne

samyeagar said:


> The jury is still out on how his wife will fit into that picture though.
> 
> I really think the absolute easiest and best first step would simply be him filing the papers with the court. It does not actually obligate anyone to anything, does not require any agreement as to property and financial asset and liability division. From a practical standpoint, the filing itself is pretty meaningless in that it doesn't actually do anything. Doesn't force anyone to a timeline, and can be pulled at any time with no obligations.
> 
> That said, it is also a tangible, visible gesture. I do not think it unreasonable for Lynne to lay it out directly. File within 30 days, or I am moving on.


It's not unreasonable if Lynn is ready to move on. She has already invested so much into this relationship. I totally get that. If the boyfriend files for divorce in 30 days, it will be seen as an aggressive move and his wife will likely lawyer up to protect herself, at his expense. I guess he didn't think this all through, did he?


----------



## samyeagar

Zanne said:


> It's not unreasonable if Lynn is ready to move on. She has already invested so much into this relationship. I totally get that. If the boyfriend files for divorce in 30 days, it will be seen as an aggressive move and his wife will likely lawyer up to protect herself, at his expense. I guess he didn't think this all through, did he?


As long as Lynn is fine with her boyfriends wife calling the shots...to each their own. I guess a lot depends on what she sees as the endgame here. What is her vision of how she wants this all to turn out, and at the expense of all the time so far invested, how much has actually, tangibly been done to accomplish this vision.


----------



## Melrose8888

Drama.
Drama.
Drama.

Do you like drama?

If you do, stay.

If not, you know what, there are tons of better guys out there.

I said it before, let him get divorced and then get together with him. If he is 'Mr Right' then you'll both be fine waiting.


----------



## Livvie

If a divorce is going to actually happen, just pull the ****ing trigger and get it done. They already aren't living together. THEY HAVE NO CHILDREN. 

Is this were me, there is honestly no excuse I'd accept for not filing. Immediately. There is not one valid, actual, real reason to wait.


----------



## Magnesium

You know what to do; you simply don't want to do it. You're making a willful choice here and the consequences are yours to suffer.

Enjoy.


----------



## MJJEAN

lynn11374 said:


> good question from you and @Blondilocks about the financial split. *He had pretty much NO assets before the marriage. * Told me he was broke and had nothing Maybe what he feels is fair IS less than 50%. *he only starting making more money from her during the last couple of years, only recently did the business grow.* I don't know. Yes, maybe that's why he doesn't want a lawyer, he will lose control of the process and outcome.
> 
> that's what I thought about a sty, I had one years ago and it went away in a few days.





Blondilocks said:


> Since there are no kids in the picture, *what she is entitled to would be fairly cut and dried* according to the state's guidelines. The longer they wait to divorce, the bigger her slice of pie. So, just what is he trying to hide from her?


If you read what Lynn says about his pre-marital assets and business, it seems clear the wife will have some claim to his business assets as the business was born during the marriage. Not so cut and dried. And this is likely why he doesn't want lawyers involved. Once his wife's lawyer explains to her the business is a marital asset, she'll ask for a percentage of it's value in the settlement. And, of course, that will also mean full financial disclosures, possibly forensic accountants, and a payout to the wife.

He's not staying legally married because she's a loon. He's staying legally married to protect his $$.


----------



## Livvie

MJJEAN said:


> lynn11374 said:
> 
> 
> 
> good question from you and @Blondilocks about the financial split. *He had pretty much NO assets before the marriage. * Told me he was broke and had nothing Maybe what he feels is fair IS less than 50%. *he only starting making more money from her during the last couple of years, only recently did the business grow.* I don't know. Yes, maybe that's why he doesn't want a lawyer, he will lose control of the process and outcome.
> 
> that's what I thought about a sty, I had one years ago and it went away in a few days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blondilocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since there are no kids in the picture, *what she is entitled to would be fairly cut and dried* according to the state's guidelines. The longer they wait to divorce, the bigger her slice of pie. So, just what is he trying to hide from her?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you read what Lynn says about his pre-marital assets and business, it seems clear the wife will have some claim to his business assets as the business was born during the marriage. Not so cut and dried. And this is likely why he doesn't want lawyers involved. Once his wife's lawyer explains to her the business is a marital asset, she'll ask for a percentage of it's value in the settlement. And, of course, that will also mean full financial disclosures, possibly forensic accountants, and a payout to the wife.
> 
> He's not staying legally married because she's a loon. He's staying legally married to protect his $$.
Click to expand...

The thing is, this $$ issue isn't going to go away, unless they never get divorced! It's not improving over time, either. That's why, if a divorce is definitely going to happen, there is no reason to not just do it. If it's going to get done, get it done already!


----------



## MJJEAN

Livvie said:


> The thing is, this $$ issue isn't going to go away, unless they never get divorced! It's not improving over time, either. That's why, if a divorce is definitely going to happen, there is no reason to not just do it. If it's going to get done, get it done already!


He's waiting because if he just files his wife will get a lawyer. He doesn't want that. He wants her ignorant when she signs.

If his business has only taken off in the last couple years and he's been separated from his wife for the last couple years, then the business didn't take off until right around the time they separated. Meaning, if he'd filed back then, she'd have been entitled to little as there was little to divide. Now that the business is profitable she will get more if she knows enough to ask for it.


----------



## lynn11374

MJJEAN said:


> He's waiting because if he just files his wife will get a lawyer. He doesn't want that. He wants her ignorant when she signs.
> 
> If his business has only taken off in the last couple years and he's been separated from his wife for the last couple years, then the business didn't take off until right around the time they separated. Meaning, if he'd filed back then, she'd have been entitled to little as there was little to divide. Now that the business is profitable she will get more if she knows enough to ask for it.


yes I belive this is exactly the case. If she has visibility into the current value of the business assets, and lawyer guiding her, he is going to be in a position to pay out half of it to her - the assets in a lump sum in addition to the alimony. So he is depending on this being friendly and mutual so that they can work it out on their own, she can walk away with some alimony and he will be generous to her with the house, and they can move on with their lives. It's just that it's exhausting how long this is taking.


----------



## Livvie

lynn11374 said:


> MJJEAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> He's waiting because if he just files his wife will get a lawyer. He doesn't want that. He wants her ignorant when she signs.
> 
> If his business has only taken off in the last couple years and he's been separated from his wife for the last couple years, then the business didn't take off until right around the time they separated. Meaning, if he'd filed back then, she'd have been entitled to little as there was little to divide. Now that the business is profitable she will get more if she knows enough to ask for it.
> 
> 
> 
> yes I belive this is exactly the case. If she has visibility into the current value of the business assets, and lawyer guiding her, he is going to be in a position to pay out half of it to her - the assets in a lump sum in addition to the alimony. So he is depending on this being friendly and mutual so that they can work it out on their own, she can walk away with some alimony and he will be generous to her with the house, and they can move on with their lives. It's just that it's exhausting how long this is taking.
Click to expand...

Meaning, he is counting on her receiving no legal counsel re asset division. He can't control that. He has NO way of predicting what will happen or ***when**". A judge or magistrate will need to sign off on a final settlement. At that final moment, the judge could look at the settlement and say to her, you know you are giving away your rights to the marital business? Sometimes people who try to get away with hoping someone doesn't notice something have karma (or a judge) step in and expose or encourage transparency.


----------



## Magnesium

It's pretty slimy that he pretends to be concerned for her well-being in order to take financial advantage. What a guy 

I hope she lawyers up and gets every cent she is due.


----------



## MJJEAN

lynn11374 said:


> yes I belive this is exactly the case. If she has visibility into the current value of the business assets, and lawyer guiding her, he is going to be in a position to pay out half of it to her - the assets in a lump sum in addition to the alimony. So he is depending on this being friendly and mutual so that they can work it out on their own, she can walk away with some alimony and he will be generous to her with the house, and they can move on with their lives. It's just that it's exhausting how long this is taking.


In other words, he's not divorcing his wife so that he can start a life with you because he's trying to avoid paying her what she is legally entitled to as his wife.

Money > you.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Can I ask a question? Have YOU gone for any legal advice? I'm not a lawyer, but if you join in on buying a house there are unseen ramifications for you and your credit. I have more to say, but your answer will dictate what I say next.


----------



## Zanne

lynn11374 said:


> yes I belive this is exactly the case. If she has visibility into the current value of the business assets, and lawyer guiding her, he is going to be in a position to pay out half of it to her - the assets in a lump sum in addition to the alimony. So he is depending on this being friendly and mutual so that they can work it out on their own, she can walk away with some alimony and he will be generous to her with the house, and they can move on with their lives. It's just that it's exhausting how long this is taking.


I also think he is avoiding the inevitable emotional conflict which will come. I know it's frustrating, but at this point, another month is nothing in the bigger scheme of things. As you said, he thought he was making a big step by telling her he wanted to move forward with the divorce. Maybe he needs the extra time to prepare for the battle ahead. Try to support him in this and realize that you're in limbo for now, although you have the right to make plans for your future. One positive is that you have a roommate who is paying half the bills. You should make it clear to him though that you are not buying a house together until the legal situation is settled.


----------



## lynn11374

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Can I ask a question? Have YOU gone for any legal advice? I'm not a lawyer, but if you join in on buying a house there are unseen ramifications for you and your credit. I have more to say, but your answer will dictate what I say next.


I have not sought out any real legal advice, no. But I won't be buying a house with him until his finances are legally separate from hers.


----------



## lynn11374

Zanne said:


> I also think he is avoiding the inevitable emotional conflict which will come. I know it's frustrating, but at this point, another month is nothing in the bigger scheme of things. As you said, he thought he was making a big step by telling her he wanted to move forward with the divorce. Maybe he needs the extra time to prepare for the battle ahead. Try to support him in this and realize that you're in limbo for now, although you have the right to make plans for your future. One positive is that you have a roommate who is paying half the bills. You should make it clear to him though that you are not buying a house together until the legal situation is settled.


You are pretty much reading my mind Zanne


----------



## turnera

You should also create a timeline in your head, at which point if he isn't divorced, you move on. You're the classic mistress who waits by the side for years, decades even, because he's so good at convincing you he's 'really trying' to end things while, in reality, he's just really good at having two lives.


----------



## *Deidre*

lynn11374 said:


> yes I belive this is exactly the case. If she has visibility into the current value of the business assets, and lawyer guiding her, he is going to be in a position to pay out half of it to her - the assets in a lump sum in addition to the alimony. So he is depending on this being friendly and mutual so that they can work it out on their own, she can walk away with some alimony and he will be generous to her with the house, and they can move on with their lives. It's just that it's exhausting how long this is taking.


And instead of dealing with it and THEN dating, he dragged you into his mess. Whatever the reasons are for why he isn't divorced really don't matter, he's still married and shouldn't have become involved until he at least filed. Now he's brought someone emotionally into this mess with him. You are the only one who can put an end to this. It's exhausting because you let it be. I know you're emotionally invested in this, and we aren't...but you came here for advice, and honestly, my advice is to put the relationship on hold until he's at least filed.


----------



## Dannip

Don't commit to this guy. He's a cheater. He will cheat on you. 

Do not move in together with him and do not let him move in with you. 

If you must, date a few years. Once divorced he's gonna roam with his new freedom. You will be an anchor to him. 

I'd walk away from this entire horror story of a nightmare.


----------



## Zanne

Dannip said:


> Don't commit to this guy. He's a cheater. He will cheat on you.
> 
> Do not move in together with him and do not let him move in with you.
> 
> If you must, date a few years. Once divorced he's gonna roam with his new freedom. You will be an anchor to him.
> 
> I'd walk away from this entire horror story of a nightmare.


It sounds like they are already sharing a life together and have been for a few years. His family has even met her. So it's a little harder to separate things, both financially and emotionally.

Lynn, I've already said that I identify with your situation and I know there's no easy way to go about it. I'm sure you would have done things differently if you could go back in time. Even though your future is up in the air for the time being, you can take back some of your power and plan accordingly as we have already discussed. Just knowing you have a back up plan can give you some peace and confidence. My best to you!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

lynn11374 said:


> You are pretty much reading my mind Zanne


Here's why I disagree with the wait and see limbo scenario.

You get together and during that time you get your divorce done. Well, all divorces are different so, let's throw yours, Happily's 7 year divorce and Zanne's out of the process.

You get together. 
He waits. 
You stay together. 
He waits. 
You move in together. 
He waits. 
You start sharing the bills. 
He waits. 
You become closer he waits. 
You decide not to get a house together.

*He fights.*


Naw, no more waiting at this point. When someone decides to fight with me I am not giving you an out when, I've bent over backwards for a year and a half already seeing your side. There's a difference between compromising and stalling. You've already compromised by waiting, quit letting him stall.


----------



## Dannip

Zanne said:


> It sounds like they are already sharing a life together and have been for a few years. His family has even met her. So it's a little harder to separate things, both financially and emotionally.
> 
> Lynn, I've already said that I identify with your situation and I know there's no easy way to go about it. I'm sure you would have done things differently if you could go back in time. Even though your future is up in the air for the time being, you can take back some of your power and plan accordingly as we have already discussed. Just knowing you have a back up plan can give you some peace and confidence. My best to you!


So What!!! Folks break up all the time. Why throw more good time and emotions into a losing nightmare.


----------



## turnera

Zanne, what did you end up doing in your situation?


----------



## Satya

Look, you can't tell him what to do. You can only control your actions. 

Please dump him and find a man who has his stuff together. And if he had a past life make sure he's divorced and has BEEN divorced and living alone for at least 1 full year. 

There are so many options available to you that put you first, not leave you sitting in the wings. This man just wants to try to save his own arse, nothing wrong with that. But that doesn't leave a lot of energy or attention for you. You're just supposed to sit there and wait for him? F that. Who knows how long you'd be waiting. 

Like @turnera and I think @Zanne mentioned, draft up a time line for yourself and stick to it.


----------



## Adelais

turnera said:


> Zanne, what did you end up doing in your situation?


I think Zanne needs to open a new thread and pick up her drama where it left off. It sounds like not much has changed for her, as she says she identifies with lynn11374
@Zanne, will you start your own thread?


----------



## lynn11374

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Here's why I disagree with the wait and see limbo scenario.
> 
> You get together and during that time you get your divorce done. Well, all divorces are different so, let's throw yours, Happily's 7 year divorce and Zanne's out of the process.
> 
> You get together.
> He waits.
> You stay together.
> He waits.
> You move in together.
> He waits.
> You start sharing the bills.
> He waits.
> You become closer he waits.
> You decide not to get a house together.
> 
> *He fights.*
> 
> 
> Naw, no more waiting at this point. When someone decides to fight with me I am not giving you an out when, I've bent over backwards for a year and a half already seeing your side. There's a difference between compromising and stalling. You've already compromised by waiting, quit letting him stall.



When I told him I won't be getting a house with him until he is legally financially independent of her, he was supportive of that. He only started fighting with me when he gave me the update that he approached the wife telling her he wanted to move forward with the divorce and held off because she was miserable dealing with an eye issue. I was supposed to be supportive of the fact that he made, what he sees as, an important step and instead I attacked and criticized him for delaying. 

At this point I supposed I will wait until labor day and see if he takes action as he said he will. And the action needs to include a real appointment with a 3rd party, not more discussions between the 2 of them that go around in circles and end in emotional pleas from her to get back together. Not willing to put up with that any more.


----------



## Zanne

lynn11374 said:


> At this point I supposed I will wait until labor day and see if he takes action as he said he will. And the action needs to include a real appointment with a 3rd party, not more discussions between the 2 of them that go around in circles and end in emotional pleas from her to get back together. Not willing to put up with that any more.


Be prepared to be disappointed. If you think about it, she has just as much invested if not more. She could drag this thing out for a long time. Best to distance yourself from the whole process and focus on yourself and your timeline. If things turn out in your favor, you can reevaluate at that time. Who knows, maybe you'll think differently at that point and want to move on. As I wrote previously, take your power back and don't let anyone else decide for you. You decide.



Araucaria said:


> I think Zanne needs to open a new thread and pick up her drama where it left off. It sounds like not much has changed for her, as she says she identifies with lynn11374
> @Zanne, will you start your own thread?


I fought the administrators of this board to have the right to delete my last thread, which had 2,000+ posts at that point and was a mess of advice, arguments and updates. I really don't visit TAM very much anymore and I post even less, unless I feel moved as was the case in this thread.

I identify with Lynn's situation because it closely mirrors my own, although I am not in the enviable position she is with a job to support herself if need be. I developed a few autoimmune diseases in the last few years and extreme fatigue is a reality for me some days. I'm guessing stress had something to do with it and emotional and physical stress really exacerbates my condition, so I will caution anyone to eliminate stress from their lives and/or figure out healthy ways to deal with it.


----------



## lynn11374

Zanne said:


> Be prepared to be disappointed. If you think about it, she has just as much invested if not more. She could drag this thing out for a long time. Best to distance yourself from the whole process and focus on yourself and your timeline. If things turn out in your favor, you can reevaluate at that time. Who knows, maybe you'll think differently at that point and want to move on. As I wrote previously, take your power back and don't let anyone else decide for you. You decide.


I wish I knew how to focus on myself and distance myself without ending the relationship right now, and without coming across as neglectful and inconsiderate.


----------



## Zanne

lynn11374 said:


> I wish I knew how to focus on myself and distance myself without ending the relationship right now, and without coming across as neglectful and inconsiderate.


I think you have to be willing to lose the relationship. That's the advice given to a betrayed partner who is in limbo with their wayward spouse and they are doing the 180 to establish some boundaries and respect for themselves. You don't need to be a beotch. Keep on enjoying your life and even the things you do together. After all, you have a life and your relationship is not your identity. That would be co-dependent.

I'm not saying it's easy to live in limbo. In fact, it's madness. You are putting your life on hold. Most people wouldn't do it and can't even fathom why someone would. Think about that. Your boyfriend got lucky when you agreed to a relationship with him before his divorce was final. Again, most people would strongly caution against it. I know I would never do it again. I don't bring up my partner's divorce crap anymore. Why bother? He knows how I feel. It's like beating a dead horse. I love him and I do have compassion and sympathy for what he's going through because I know his divorce is more complicated than mine. That's why I'm still with him, even as I grow weary of the long wait.

I'm not sure how people just walk away from a long term relationship, especially when you are sharing a life together. If you've only been dating for a few weeks or even a few months, okay, yeah, I can see that. I think it's more of a process if you've been with someone for awhile. If you have established your needs and goals for the future and they don't mesh with your partner and further, they can't be bothered, there's going to be friction and eventually that's going outweigh your desire to stay with them. IMHO. I decided that if I don't establish a timeline, then one year is going to turn into another year, etc., and the resentments are going to build and I'm back to square one.

I wish I could be of more help, but I'm in limbo myself. And for the most part, I only hear from arm chair counselors on this board. I would love to hear from someone who actually walked away from a serious relationship and what their thought process was and how they managed it. (IOW, how do you leave someone you still love?)


----------



## samyeagar

Zanne said:


> I think you have to be willing to lose the relationship. That's the advice given to a betrayed partner who is in limbo with their wayward spouse and they are doing the 180 to establish some boundaries and respect for themselves. You don't need to be a beotch. Keep on enjoying your life and even the things you do together. After all, you have a life and your relationship is not your identity. That would be co-dependent.
> 
> I'm not saying it's easy to live in limbo. In fact, it's madness. You are putting your life on hold. Most people wouldn't do it and can't even fathom why someone would. Think about that. Your boyfriend got lucky when *you agreed to a relationship with him before his divorce was final.*
> 
> Again, most people would strongly caution against it. I know I would never do it again. I don't bring up my partner's divorce crap anymore. Why bother? He knows how I feel. It's like beating a dead horse. I love him and I do have compassion and sympathy for what he's going through because I know his divorce is more complicated than mine. That's why I'm still with him, even as I grow weary of the long wait.
> 
> I'm not sure how people just walk away from a long term relationship, especially when you are sharing a life together. If you've only been dating for a few weeks or even a few months, okay, yeah, I can see that. I think it's more of a process if you've been with someone for awhile. If you have established your needs and goals for the future and they don't mesh with your partner and further, they can't be bothered, there's going to be friction and eventually that's going outweigh your desire to stay with them. IMHO. I decided that if I don't establish a timeline, then one year is going to turn into another year, etc., and the resentments are going to build and I'm back to square one.
> 
> I wish I could be of more help, but I'm in limbo myself. And for the most part, I only hear from arm chair counselors on this board. I would love to hear from someone who actually walked away from a serious relationship and what their thought process was and how they managed it. (IOW, how do you leave someone you still love?)


Before his divorce has even started you mean.


----------



## turnera

You're kidding, right? He didn't 'pursue' the divorce because she had an eye infection? And you accepted that?

oy vey


----------



## Quality

Zanne said:


> I think you have to be willing to lose the relationship. That's the advice given to a betrayed partner who is in limbo with their wayward spouse and they are doing the 180 to establish some boundaries and respect for themselves. You don't need to be a beotch. Keep on enjoying your life and even the things you do together. After all, you have a life and your relationship is not your identity. That would be co-dependent.
> 
> I'm not saying it's easy to live in limbo. In fact, it's madness. You are putting your life on hold. Most people wouldn't do it and can't even fathom why someone would. Think about that. Your boyfriend got lucky when you agreed to a relationship with him before his divorce was final. Again, most people would strongly caution against it. I know I would never do it again. I don't bring up my partner's divorce crap anymore. Why bother? He knows how I feel. It's like beating a dead horse. I love him and I do have compassion and sympathy for what he's going through because I know his divorce is more complicated than mine. That's why I'm still with him, even as I grow weary of the long wait.
> 
> I'm not sure how people just walk away from a long term relationship, especially when you are sharing a life together. If you've only been dating for a few weeks or even a few months, okay, yeah, I can see that. I think it's more of a process if you've been with someone for awhile. If you have established your needs and goals for the future and they don't mesh with your partner and further, they can't be bothered, there's going to be friction and eventually that's going outweigh your desire to stay with them. IMHO. I decided that if I don't establish a timeline, then one year is going to turn into another year, etc., and the resentments are going to build and I'm back to square one.
> 
> I wish I could be of more help, but I'm in limbo myself. And for the most part, I only hear from arm chair counselors on this board. I would love to hear from someone who actually walked away from a serious relationship and what their thought process was and how they managed it. (IOW, how do you leave someone you still love?)


Why are you arm-chair counseling this woman on how to continue her adulterous affair and win her paramour's affections, devotion and follow through on his divorce? Seems a bit cruel to encourage an affair around so many betrayed spouses. Besides, an OW trying the DB 180 technique which was supposedly designed to save marriages in hopes of actually expediting a divorce is pretty ironical. 

Instead, the OP should be told over and over again to run and that her current relationship which was built upon lies, deceit, and adultery will NEVER work out long term. They never do. In all my years coaching marriages I've yet to see or meet ONE successfully married happy and healthy affair marriage. The kind of people that have affairs, then don't stop them, then get divorced and double down on the misery by marrying their affair partner just aren't marriage material. MAYBE one is somewhere out there is capable of having a healthy relationship but it's never both of them ~ and our team has tried {in private when there are kids involved}

She should be aware that she, like you, are convenient safety nets and, unfortunately for her {and likely you} once your married men actually get divorced it won't just be the singular soon to be monster ex-wife you'll have to worry about but the entire population of married and unmarried women {who are all suddenly a lot less needy, clingy and desperate than an OW that gave up their entire lives for them expecting some grand payoff}. Inevitably, once divorced, they'll need to "find themselves" {most often soon discovering themselves in the beds of other much younger and less complicated single women}.

Sorry OP. You can try to polish the poop all you want but in the end, it's still poop. Break up with him. Tell him to go home to his wife. If you love him ~ let him go to the only place he could actually BE happy and content. With his God-given wife {apologize to her too, for interferring in her marriage and family - her divorce is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS}.


----------



## wringo123

Quality said:


> Why are you arm-chair counseling this woman on how to continue her adulterous affair and win her paramour's affections, devotion and follow through on his divorce? Seems a bit cruel to encourage an affair around so many betrayed spouses. Besides, an OW trying the DB 180 technique which was supposedly designed to save marriages in hopes of actually expediting a divorce is pretty ironical.
> 
> Instead, the OP should be told over and over again to run and that her current relationship which was built upon lies, deceit, and adultery will NEVER work out long term. They never do. In all my years coaching marriages I've yet to see or meet ONE successfully married happy and healthy affair marriage. The kind of people that have affairs, then don't stop them, then get divorced and double down on the misery by marrying their affair partner just aren't marriage material. MAYBE one is somewhere out there is capable of having a healthy relationship but it's never both of them ~ and our team has tried {in private when there are kids involved}
> 
> She should be aware that she, like you, are convenient safety nets and, unfortunately for her {and likely you} once your married men actually get divorced it won't just be the singular soon to be monster ex-wife you'll have to worry about but the entire population of married and unmarried women {who are all suddenly a lot less needy, clingy and desperate than an OW that gave up their entire lives for them expecting some grand payoff}. Inevitably, once divorced, they'll need to "find themselves" {most often soon discovering themselves in the beds of other much younger and less complicated single women}.
> 
> Sorry OP. You can try to polish the poop all you want but in the end, it's still poop. Break up with him. Tell him to go home to his wife. If you love him ~ let him go to the only place he could actually BE happy and content. With his God-given wife {apologize to her too, for interferring in her marriage and family - her divorce is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS}.


Wish I could like this a million times



Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

lynn11374 said:


> And the action needs to include a real appointment with a 3rd party, not more discussions between the 2 of them that go around in circles and end in emotional pleas from her to get back together. Not willing to put up with that any more.


I wonder if these two idiots have an excuse wheel they spin once a month, like the Wheel of Fortune. They just spin it and whatever pre-fabricated excuse is printed on the spot it lands on, *that's* what they go with. 

This time, it landed on "Eye Infection." Who knows...maybe next time the wheel will land on "She Needs to Have a Root Canal" or "Her House Needs to be Fumigated for Weevils."


----------



## Magnesium

Zanne said:


> I think you have to be willing to lose the relationship. That's the advice given to a betrayed partner who is in limbo with their wayward spouse and they are doing the 180 to establish some boundaries and respect for themselves. You don't need to be a beotch. Keep on enjoying your life and even the things you do together. After all, you have a life and your relationship is not your identity. That would be co-dependent.
> 
> I'm not saying it's easy to live in limbo. In fact, it's madness. You are putting your life on hold. Most people wouldn't do it and can't even fathom why someone would. Think about that. Your boyfriend got lucky when you agreed to a relationship with him before his divorce was final. Again, most people would strongly caution against it. I know I would never do it again. I don't bring up my partner's divorce crap anymore. Why bother? He knows how I feel. It's like beating a dead horse. I love him and I do have compassion and sympathy for what he's going through because I know his divorce is more complicated than mine. That's why I'm still with him, even as I grow weary of the long wait.
> 
> I'm not sure how people just walk away from a long term relationship, especially when you are sharing a life together. If you've only been dating for a few weeks or even a few months, okay, yeah, I can see that. I think it's more of a process if you've been with someone for awhile. If you have established your needs and goals for the future and they don't mesh with your partner and further, they can't be bothered, there's going to be friction and eventually that's going outweigh your desire to stay with them. IMHO. I decided that if I don't establish a timeline, then one year is going to turn into another year, etc., and the resentments are going to build and I'm back to square one.
> 
> I wish I could be of more help, but I'm in limbo myself. And for the most part, I only hear from arm chair counselors on this board. *I would love to hear from someone who actually walked away from a serious relationship and what their thought process was and how they managed it. (IOW, how do you leave someone you still love*?)



Right here. I walked away even though I loved (and still love) my ex. I ended it because there came a time that I could no longer tolerate valuing my immediate comfort over truth and what was right. Love is not enough to sustain a relationship or make a relationship healthy; it is merely one ingredient. Too often, our definitions of love are completely jacked. Love is widely viewed as an emotion, but I believe that love is a way of life and must be the source of our actions, behaviors and choices. 

I think you're doing the OP a disservice by pandering to her in this way. But, I suppose since you're in a similar boat you are selfishly seeking some sort of validation for your own crappy choices. It reeks of garbage.


----------



## samyeagar

Magnesium said:


> Right here. I walked away even though I loved (and still love) my ex. I ended it because there came a time that I could no longer tolerate valuing my immediate comfort over truth and what was right. Love is not enough to sustain a relationship or make a relationship healthy; it is merely one ingredient. Too often, our definitions of love are completely jacked. Love is widely viewed as an emotion, but I believe that love is a way of life and must be the source of our actions, behaviors and choices.
> 
> I think you're doing the OP a disservice by pandering to her in this way. But, I suppose since you're in a similar boat you are selfishly seeking some sort of validation for your own crappy choices. It reeks of garbage.


Not to mention the two husbands in question seem to be finding it difficult to actually move on from their wives, who, if what is suggested is true, these husbands must really love their wives. IOW, these husbands aren't leaving their wives because they love them.


----------



## lynn11374

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I wonder if these two idiots have an excuse wheel they spin once a month, like the Wheel of Fortune. They just spin it and whatever pre-fabricated excuse is printed on the spot it lands on, *that's* what they go with.
> 
> This time, it landed on "Eye Infection." Who knows...maybe next time the wheel will land on "She Needs to Have a Root Canal" or "Her House Needs to be Fumigated for Weevils."


I would not be surprised. He said he went to the house yesterday while she wasn't there to pick up something he left behind accidentally and to see the cats, and he saw an eye gauze and ointment lying on the counter. So it apparently is true. However, she was at work. so how bad could it be if she is able to work at her job?


----------



## Magnesium

samyeagar said:


> Not to mention the two husbands in question seem to be finding it difficult to actually move on from their wives, who, if what is suggested is true, these husbands must really love their wives. IOW, these husbands aren't leaving their wives because they love them.


Well, I suspect the husbands only "love" themselves and are aiming to get all they can out of each woman while giving as little as they can get away with. I can't imagine that they love their wives if they're cheating on them. Maybe they sometimes _feel _love for them, but cheating is an act that is directly contradictory to love.


----------



## samyeagar

Magnesium said:


> Well, I suspect the husbands only "love" themselves and are aiming to get all they can out of each woman while giving as little as they can get away with. I can't imagine that they love their wives if they're cheating on them. Maybe they sometimes _feel _love for them, but cheating is an act that is directly contradictory to love.


Or these men simply have a complete disassociation between love and fidelity so in their minds, they can love their wives without considering fidelity.


----------



## Blondilocks

Does she have keys to his/your place? No, I didn't think so. He comes and goes when he pleases. It doesn't matter why he thinks he has the right to do this. What matters is he does it. Think about it.


----------



## samyeagar

Blondilocks said:


> Does she have keys to his/your place? No, I didn't think so. He comes and goes when he pleases. It doesn't matter why he thinks he has the right to do this. What matters is he does it. Think about it.


But won't someone pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease think of the cats?


----------



## lynn11374

Quality said:


> Break up with him. Tell him to go home to his wife. If you love him ~ let him go to the only place he could actually BE happy and content. With his God-given wife {apologize to her too, for interferring in her marriage and family - her divorce is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS}.


If it's none of my business then why should I encourage him to go back to her? It's HIS place to determine where he is happy and content. It's this kind of thinking that kept me in my marriage with my "god-given" abusive husband for way too long.


----------



## Magnesium

samyeagar said:


> Or these men simply have a complete disassociation between love and fidelity so in their minds, they can love their wives without considering fidelity.


I agree. It goes back to my comments about the definition of love and my belief that they - like most people - are confusing love for a feeling they get when they're with someone they like who meets their needs.

They may believe they love their girlfriends because they have that feeling they associate with love. The may believe they no longer love their wives because they do not have that feeling any longer. 

But love is not a feeling....at least not solely. Love is the source of actions, choices, behaviors. 

So, who are they really loving here? 

Themselves.


----------



## oldshirt

I'll tell you what I tell my 15 year old daughter - always go by what someone has actually done; not by what they say they will do. 

For example - if you want to marry a doctor, marry someone who has graduated from med school, has a license to practice medicine and is working as a physician. Do not marry someone in undergrad who says he/she is going to go to med school. 

Anyone can say anything and even if someone is sincere at the time they say it, a lot can happen between the time someone says they are going to do something and the time they actually accomplish it. 

Always go by what has actually been accomplished. 

Do you see the difference????

Now lets apply that principle to your situation. Let's say that you want to be with a man that is not married and does not have a wife. 

Instead of getting with a married man who still has a wife and says he is going to divorce - find a man who has either never married and is single, or has his final divorce decree in hand. 

Those people are actually single and aren't just saying they are going to be single some day. BIG DIFFERENCE.


----------



## lynn11374

samyeagar said:


> But won't someone pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease think of the cats?



as an animal lover myself with 2 dogs who I see as my children, I don't fault him for not wanting to abandon his pets. It's one of his qualities that makes him attractive to me.


----------



## Magnesium

lynn11374 said:


> as an animal lover myself with 2 dogs who I see as my children, I don't fault him for not wanting to abandon his pets. It's one of his qualities that makes him attractive to me.


Are you being intentionally obtuse? I honestly cannot tell.


----------



## Blondilocks

Next excuse on the agenda: Fluffy has a hairball. You do realize that the cats will be a point of contention in the supposed divorce, don't you?

If I were his wife, I would drag this out 'til the marriage hit the ten year mark so that I could qualify for social security benefits based on his pay. In my mind, she's earned it.


----------



## oldshirt

Let's take this 'actions-vs-words' them and extrapolate it one step further. 

Let's say they actually do file and do get a divorce........ based on his current behaviors and actions, do you really think once he has the divorce papers in hand that he will actually cut off the relationship with her??????

Since this has been going on 1 and 1/2 years that you have been hooking up with him, do you really think that this pattern of behavior is actually going to change?

Do you think divorce papers will have that much power that it will actually change this established pattern? 

You've got to think and be smart here.


----------



## JustTheFacts

Ok, just read all of your posts on this thread. I have only one thing to say. If you marry this man, it will be the second biggest mistake of your life (your previous marriage being the first). Guaranteed.


----------



## Zanne

Quality said:


> Why are you arm-chair counseling this woman on how to continue her adulterous affair and win her paramour's affections, devotion and follow through on his divorce? Seems a bit cruel to encourage an affair around so many betrayed spouses. Besides, an OW trying the DB 180 technique which was supposedly designed to save marriages in hopes of actually expediting a divorce is pretty ironical.
> 
> Instead, the OP should be told over and over again to run and that her current relationship which was built upon lies, deceit, and adultery will NEVER work out long term. They never do. In all my years coaching marriages I've yet to see or meet ONE successfully married happy and healthy affair marriage. The kind of people that have affairs, then don't stop them, then get divorced and double down on the misery by marrying their affair partner just aren't marriage material. MAYBE one is somewhere out there is capable of having a healthy relationship but it's never both of them ~ and our team has tried {in private when there are kids involved}
> 
> She should be aware that she, like you, are convenient safety nets and, unfortunately for her {and likely you} once your married men actually get divorced it won't just be the singular soon to be monster ex-wife you'll have to worry about but the entire population of married and unmarried women {who are all suddenly a lot less needy, clingy and desperate than an OW that gave up their entire lives for them expecting some grand payoff}. Inevitably, once divorced, they'll need to "find themselves" {most often soon discovering themselves in the beds of other much younger and less complicated single women}.
> 
> Sorry OP. You can try to polish the poop all you want but in the end, it's still poop. Break up with him. Tell him to go home to his wife. If you love him ~ let him go to the only place he could actually BE happy and content. With his God-given wife {apologize to her too, for interferring in her marriage and family - her divorce is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS}.


All of the people in this situation are legally separated and/or divorced. OP has stated that she is not religious. Further, she did not come here to ask about the moral implications of her relationship. The matter at hand is her boyfriend dragging his divorce out because he's a Mr. Nice Guy. My advice to her was not sugar coated. I told her to focus on herself and plan accordingly. Unlike you, I did not condemn her for her choices. My understanding is the 180 isn't about saving marriages, it's about saving yourself. Anybody can use the principles. I was trying to meet her where she is at in her life and offer some perspective because I identified with her situation, specifically the situation with her boyfriend's divorce being delayed again and again. Just because he is dragging out the divorce, doesn't mean he wants to reconcile with his wife. But that's his deal. Again, that's why I told her to focus on herself.

And for the record, I know of people who are married and their relationship started as an affair and I personally know a couple in my church who even sit together at church with his ex and all of their children in the same row. A great deal of work went into those relationships and their life isn't perfect, but they are happier than most people. I know it's rare to find a "happy ending" to any love story that begins on shaky ground and I was very honest about that to Lynn as well.


----------



## Zanne

oldshirt said:


> Let's take this 'actions-vs-words' them and extrapolate it one step further.
> 
> Let's say they actually do file and do get a divorce........ based on his current behaviors and actions, do you really think once he has the divorce papers in hand that he will actually cut off the relationship with her??????
> 
> Since this has been going on 1 and 1/2 years that you have been hooking up with him, do you really think that this pattern of behavior is actually going to change?
> 
> Do you think divorce papers will have that much power that it will actually change this established pattern?
> 
> You've got to think and be smart here.


Old shirt, you have made some very good points in your last two posts and I definitely think Lynn should carefully consider what you are saying. However, the deed is done - she is already living with him and sharing a life with him, presumably paying bills together, etc. Now what? I think Lynn could use some counsel on how to move forward from this situation, whether she ends up with her boyfriend long term or not. Certainly she needs to take off rose colored glasses, as you have stated here.


----------



## samyeagar

Zanne said:


> All of the people in this situation are legally separated and/or divorced. OP has stated that she is not religious. Further, she did not come here to ask about the moral implications of her relationship. The matter at hand is her boyfriend dragging his divorce out because he's a Mr. Nice Guy. My advice to her was not sugar coated. I told her to focus on herself and plan accordingly. Unlike you, I did not condemn her for her choices. My understanding is the 180 isn't about saving marriages, it's about saving yourself. Anybody can use the principles. I was trying to meet her where she is at in her life and offer some perspective because I identified with her situation, specifically the situation with her boyfriend's divorce being delayed again and again. Just because he is dragging out the divorce, doesn't mean he wants to reconcile with his wife. But that's his deal. Again, that's why I told her to focus on herself.
> 
> And for the record, I know of people who are married and their relationship started as an affair and I personally know a couple in my church who even sit together at church with his ex and all of their children in the same row. A great deal of work went into those relationships and their life isn't perfect, but they are happier than most people. I know it's rare to find a "happy ending" to any love story that begins on shaky ground and I was very honest about that to Lynn as well.


There is a difference between being legally separated from a spouse, and not living with them. As far as we can tell, he is not legally separated. He is also not dragging out his divorce. That would imply that the whole process had even begun. It has not. All he has done is move out of the house he shares with his wife into the house he shares with his girlfriend. He has said lots of words over an extended period of time, and with the latest bit about the eye surgery, he seems to confuse lots of words in a short amount of time with actual action, and expects to be congratulated for saying lots of words. Specifics aside, at the very least, he has proven that he can say lots of words all the while doing nothing. Is that really a characteristic one would want to be married to? When I suspect that something similar existed in the already failed marriage?


----------



## Primrose

lynn11374 said:


> I would not be surprised. He said he went to the house yesterday while she wasn't there to pick up something he left behind accidentally and to see the cats, and he saw an eye gauze and ointment lying on the counter. So it apparently is true. However, she was at work. so how bad could it be if she is able to work at her job?


Why is he going to her house without you? & why is he leaving things behind at HER house? How does this not scream suspicious to you? 



lynn11374 said:


> as an animal lover myself with 2 dogs who I see as my children, I don't fault him for not wanting to abandon his pets. It's one of his qualities that makes him attractive to me.


So will these cats be included in a custody agreement after the divorce? 

He left her. These cats are no longer his if he chose to leave them with her.


----------



## lynn11374

Primrose said:


> Why is he going to her house without you? & why is he leaving things behind at HER house? How does this not scream suspicious to you?
> 
> 
> 
> So will these cats be included in a custody agreement after the divorce?
> 
> He left her. These cats are no longer his if he chose to leave them with her.


He went to the house the other week to grab his remaining things. There was an item he thought he brought back and was looking all over our apartment for it. He went back to the house and saw she had put it outside for him because he left it there. so he went inside to see the cats. 

My dogs were written into my separation agreement and ultimately divorce agreement. I have full custody but he still contributed to vet bills and would take them if I needed to travel. That being said, I have not enforced this because I prefer not to engage with him and I am financially stable enough to afford their bills and I have my bf to watch them when I travel. I would not have a problem if bf continued supporting the care of the cats after their divorce. I would rather that than 99% of the men out there who are paying child support, swapping kids back and forth and communicating to and fighting with exes on a regular basis about kids, not to mention step-parenting responsibilities I don't want.


----------



## samyeagar

Primrose said:


> Why is he going to her house without you? & why is he leaving things behind at HER house? How does this not scream suspicious to you?
> 
> 
> 
> So will these cats be included in a custody agreement after the divorce?
> 
> He left her. These cats are no longer his if he chose to leave them with her.


Hes saving the cats emotional well being for next month's reason not to divorce because he and his wife haven't agreed on the kitty psychologist yet


----------



## samyeagar

lynn11374 said:


> He went to the house the other week to grab his remaining things. There was an item he thought he brought back and was looking all over our apartment for it. He went back to the house and saw she had put it outside for him because he left it there. so he went inside to see the cats.
> 
> My dogs were written into my separation agreement and ultimately divorce agreement. I have full custody but he still contributed to vet bills and would take them if I needed to travel. That being said, I have not enforced this because I prefer not to engage with him and I am financially stable enough to afford their bills and I have my bf to watch them when I travel. I would not have a problem if bf continued supporting the care of the cats after their divorce. I would rather that than 99% of the men out there who are paying child support, swapping kids back and forth and communicating to and fighting with exes on a regular basis about kids, not to mention step-parenting responsibilities I don't want.


Yet you're ok with him communicating and fighting with his actual wife about the actual divorce even starting?


----------



## Quality

Primrose said:


> Why is he going to her house without you? & why is he leaving things behind at HER house? How does this not scream suspicious to you?
> 
> 
> 
> So will these cats be included in a custody agreement after the divorce?
> 
> He left her. These cats are no longer his if he chose to leave them with her.


This is along the lines of what I was thinking too. His wife just had surgery and so a concerned visit, at a minimum like an obligatory hospital visit, to his ailing wife was in order. The additional details about forgetting something, she wasn't even there, he was visiting 'his' cats and seeing gauze and ointment laying about is just too much detail to be true considering this man is a known adulterer and liar. 

Based upon the volume of extraneous fabricated detail, I''d say it was a BIG lie. All he needed to say was he stopped by to get something. Why would his monster ex-wife being there or not even be an issue??? "Visiting" his cats is just too cute and distracting and adding that she wasn't home makes him sound guilty of subterfuge. I think she was probably there and they probably had a 'nooner. She is hoping to save her marriage after all and doesn't want a divorce so she'd do what women in her desperate position have often done for years ~ try to sex their husband's back home. 

Since you probably stalk the wife anyway, you should call her employment and ask to speak to her in a disguised voice or email her from a throw away account and see if you get an out of office bounce back email. I bet she's not there.


----------



## Zanne

samyeagar said:


> There is a difference between being legally separated from a spouse, and not living with them. As far as we can tell, he is not legally separated. He is also not dragging out his divorce. That would imply that the whole process had even begun. It has not. All he has done is move out of the house he shares with his wife into the house he shares with his girlfriend. He has said lots of words over an extended period of time, and with the latest bit about the eye surgery, he seems to confuse lots of words in a short amount of time with actual action, and expects to be congratulated for saying lots of words. Specifics aside, at the very least, he has proven that he can say lots of words all the while doing nothing. Is that really a characteristic one would want to be married to? When I suspect that something similar existed in the already failed marriage?


I misspoke, the boyfriend is likely in an informal/permanent separation. In my home state and the state I am living in now, there are laws concerning property and assets/debt in a permanent separation, but you're right it is not the same as a legal separation. My point is that he has been separated from his wife for over a year. It sounds like he doesn't plan to return to his marital home, although I agree his stalling is something to consider when the OP is thinking about a future with this man. Why is he stalling? We could wonder all day about the reason(s). Better to be in a position where she has some sense of control over her future. That is where I advise her to put her focus. She should communicate her position to him on this whole matter and then let him figure things out. If he can't, or won't, follow through on what she needs in order to share her life with him, then she can move on knowing it really wasn't meant to be. Right now she is in limbo because of the mixed signals he is giving her. She needs clarity and a well thought out plan can help her when her emotions are overwhelming her thought process.


----------



## samyeagar

Zanne said:


> I misspoke, the boyfriend is likely in an informal/permanent separation. In my home state and the state I am living in now, there are laws concerning property and assets/debt in a permanent separation, but you're right it is not the same as a legal separation. My point is that he has been separated from his wife for over a year. It sounds like he doesn't plan to return to his marital home, although I agree his stalling is something to consider when the OP is thinking about a future with this man. Why is he stalling? We could wonder all day about the reason(s). Better to be in a position where she has some sense of control over her future. That is where I advise her to put her focus. She should communicate her position to him on this whole matter and then let him figure things out. If he can't, or won't, follow through on what she needs in order to share her life with him, then she can move on knowing it really wasn't meant to be. Right now she is in limbo because of the mixed signals he is giving her. She needs clarity and a well thought out plan can help her when her emotions are overwhelming her thought process.


But he's not sending mixed signals. He is signaling loud and clear that he does not want to divorce his wife. Hell, even his words don't show any real conviction behind them, much less even pretending to back up his action, or inaction as it were. And he still periodically returns to the marital home. He has been "separated" for how long now, and still has to go back there to get things he has left there? He still lives there.


----------



## Magnesium

The mixed signals are between what he SAYS and what he DOES. 

Clearly, he knows enough to prey on insecure women who don't value themselves enough to know he's not worth a minute of their time. 

Between the OP and this Zanne character making such wretched excuses for their useless men and themselves, I can't even with this anymore. What a waste.


----------



## oldshirt

Zanne said:


> Old shirt, you have made some very good points in your last two posts and I definitely think Lynn should carefully consider what you are saying. However, the deed is done - she is already living with him and sharing a life with him, presumably paying bills together, etc. Now what?


So???????

Ever hear the term, "move out?"

You make this sound complicated..... it isn't. It is quite simple. 

If she wants to be with a unmarried man that does not have a wife, then she needs to get with a guy that has either never married or has actually obtained a final divorce decree. 

This process is quite simple and can be done in a few easy steps. 

Step #1. Find an available apartment she can afford in the area she wants to live. Do whatever paperwork and payments are required to secure apartment. 

Step #2. Pack her stuff into boxes, get a moving truck, load truck, drive to new apartment, move stuff into the apartment. 

Step #3. date unmarried men. 

I'm not seeing the complications and roadblocks here.


----------



## samyeagar

oldshirt said:


> So???????
> 
> Ever hear the term, "move out?"
> 
> You make this sound complicated..... it isn't. It is quite simple.
> 
> If she wants to be with a unmarried man that does not have a wife, then she needs to get with a guy that has either never married or has actually obtained a final divorce decree.
> 
> This process is quite simple and can be done in a few easy steps.
> 
> Step #1. Find an available apartment she can afford in the area she wants to live. Do whatever paperwork and payments are required to secure apartment.
> 
> Step #2. Pack her stuff into boxes, get a moving truck, load truck, drive to new apartment, move stuff into the apartment.
> 
> Step #3. date unmarried men.
> 
> I'm not seeing the complications and roadblocks here.


But, but, she's in luuuuuurve


----------



## lynn11374

samyeagar said:


> But he's not sending mixed signals. He is signaling loud and clear that he does not want to divorce his wife. Hell, even his words don't show any real conviction behind them, much less even pretending to back up his action, or inaction as it were.


This is true. I guess I'm holding onto actions that do signal his goal is a future with me, such as the fact he is clearing his stuff out of the marital home and wanting to start the process of buying a house with me. Those are not the actions of someone who's intent is returning to the wife.


----------



## samyeagar

lynn11374 said:


> This is true. I guess I'm holding onto actions that do signal his goal is a future with me, such as the fact he is clearing his stuff out of the marital home and wanting to start the process of buying a house with me. Those are not the actions of someone who's intent is returning to the wife.


But none of those things indicate he has any intention of actually leaving his wife. I mean, you have done a good job fitting them to your hope that he will, and who knows, they may be, but he has had how long now, and has not actually taken any definitive unquestionable action to actually leave his wife.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Okay, interesting. So, you respond to my comment by filling in the imaginary blanks. You do realize it changes nothing in my post, it only adds a timeline clarification. Yet, you still fought correct? You fought because he felt he took a big step by stalling, AGAIN, but you didn't show him support. Remove your emotions for a second and think how ignorant that sounds coming from his mouth. He's just told you "I'm mad because you didn't support my decision NOT to do anything again." First it was mental, then it was an eye, he's worried about his financials and he needs your support.


I find it interesting none of those EXCUSES mention you or your feelings in his equation.


----------



## Quality

Zanne said:


> And for the record, I know of people who are married and their relationship started as an affair and I personally know a couple in my church who even sit together at church with his ex and all of their children in the same row. A great deal of work went into those relationships and their life isn't perfect, but they are happier than most people. I know it's rare to find a "happy ending" to any love story that begins on shaky ground and I was very honest about that to Lynn as well.


Several years ago I recall Syndey banning you {apparently only temporarily} for making similar statements celebrating adultery in contradiction to the purposes, terms, conditions or whatever of this forum {his words, not mine}. I'm not a moderator, but this seems to be pretty celebratory. Referring to an affair marriage as "successful" or a "happy ending", letting alone referring to it as a "love story" without regard to the wake of destruction left behind your seemingly fabricated couple "sitting in church with all their kids" and directly in the faces of so many persons destroyed by such, gag me, soul-sick "love" stories is beyond pale. Homewreckering relationships aren't built upon "shakey ground", they are steamrolled upon PEOPLE ~ devastated people crushed by the person that vowed to love them in good times and bad, sickness and in health. The betrayed spouses and the kids left behind are NOT footnotes in some horrors "love story" ~ they ARE the story. 

IF the story of the church couple is true, I'd speculate they are 100% pretending. They always pretend because the hurt they inflicted on so many just HAS TO BE seemingly worth it. The pretend to each other and to everyone around them. They are people of the lie. Plus, they forever remain active adulterers who have no place in any biblical church. They should be confronted, disciplined and removed from the congregation if they refuse to "sin no more". The fact you are sitting there alongside this couple while in active rebellion is a testament to that body of Christ appearing to be infected. At the very least, I certainly hope neither you or them are in any leadership position. 

If the story is false and you're just making it up to offer hope to this and any other "other women" that stops by, you are being very cruel in your dishonesty. The odds aren't just stacked up against this OP, her longstanding happiness and contentment with this married man is completely impossible. These relationships NEVER work and feeding her ongoing delusion and fantastical thinking with false hope is beyond mean.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

It seems like you fell into the trap of him being better than your ex so you think it's good enough vs finding someone who is just compatible with you. 

If you left today I bet he'd be back with his wife soon enough. 

He isn't ready to be in a relationship. He needed to close that part of his life before opening another one. Now you're both stuck. Him getting a formal divorce won't help much because emotionally he is still stuck in both places. I feel like you are waiting for the divorce to fix things that are just part of who he is.

He will tip toe around people to avoid hurting their feelings but will hurt yours doing it. If it's not the wife it'll be the mother in law, the coworker. He'll never put your feelings first. 
He's just not sure about being with you. You give him the sex he needs and other things his wife didn't but he's not ready to completely commit to you yet. If he did, he'd file. People don't act in ways that could lose you if he really wanted to keep you. 

You see this in people who have a "meh, she/he will do for now" attitude instead of one of actually wanting YOU for the rest of his life. 
They will make a minimum amount of effort but won't go outside their comfort zone or behave in ways that keep you.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Oh and ftr my Dad and his AP are still married 15+ years later. 

It's a small chance for the AP but not 0. 

But when he left, he left and never looked back. The divorce was filed instantly and he never was wishy washy about it.


----------



## Zanne

Lynn, I'm sure it's obvious that I disagree with the thinking of some of the male posters here. Women tend to be more emotional, so I'm not sure if they get where you are at, but anyway, I think your biggest challenge is sorting yourself out. As you can see from your earlier posts, you are conflicted because of your emotions:


lynn11374 said:


> *I am afraid he will see me as being selfish and unsupportive, give up on me and leave.*





lynn11374 said:


> *I find it hard to think about the situation objectively because of my love and attraction for him.*


I think the general message in the following posts by EleGirl and Turnera (two very wise women) are helpful to you:


EleGirl said:


> You are not setting boundaries because you have no practice setting boundaries. And this is a very hard and confusing situation you find yourself in. The deeper you get into it, the less likely you will ever set any boundaries.
> 
> You might want to get into counseling again so that you have someone who can help you set and keep boundaries until you are strong enough to do it on your own.
> 
> It is not selfish to set boundaries that are meant to protect yourself. For some reason you do not do much to protect yourself, not in your marriage and not in this relationship.





turnera said:


> More therapy is needed. You are still insecure and have low self esteem. If you loved yourself, you'd KNOW that you're a great catch and he's lucky you're still with him.
> 
> And that is the attitude you should be exuding. 'Look, hon, I love you a ton, but I'm not going to sit back and wait this out. If you can't do this one thing, then I don't think you love me as much as you claim to do. So I'm going to start living my life more as a single person, until this gets settled. I'm a great catch, and you have a decision to make.'
> 
> He isn't moving on this because YOU are going along with it. Nothing more.


Please consider their advice. I wish you the very best. Please let us know how things turn out.


----------



## oldshirt

lynn11374 said:


> This is true. I guess I'm holding onto actions that do signal his goal is a future with me, such as the fact he is clearing his stuff out of the marital home and wanting to start the process of buying a house with me. Those are not the actions of someone who's intent is returning to the wife.


I'll give you a half point in that he is probably not planning on staying with his wife in the marital home. 

However that does mean that he intends to marry you and have a permanent home and family with you so do not try to convince yourself that one plus one equals ten. 

He has been bunking with you while he leisurely packs his stuff, feeds the cats and is still involving himself in his wife's and family's affairs (no pun intended)

The point many of us are trying make here is you can only judge people on their past accomplishments and current actions. You can not predict their future intents and future accomplishments based on their words. 

If he wanted to be divorced from his wife, he would have filed and divorced her. 

if he wanted to extract himself from her, he would have divorced her and not had contact with her. 

If he wanted to be a single man and date single women, he would have divorced and started dating single/legally divorced women and not hooked up with woman who was still married (ie, you at the time he started schmoozing you). 

If he wanted to remarry and make a new life with a viable candidate, he would have divorced his wife, started dating single/legally divorced women and then picked one, proposed marriage, bought a ring, talked to her daddy about marrying her, bought a house and got married. 

In other words he would have done those things if those were things he wanted to do. 

So lets look at what he has actually done -

- schmoozed and hit on a married woman and hooked her. 

- probably got kicked out of the house for screwing around, but for the sake of argument let's say he voluntarily left the marital home. 

- continued the affair with the OW and became roomies with her and cuddled up to her and told her she was great during her divorce. 

- has not lifted a finger to actually initiate divorce proceedings with his wife. 

- continues to visit and do things in the marital home including feeding the cats. 

- has paid lip service to the OW saying that he will divorce and that the wife is somehow responsible for the divorce proceedings not moving forward. 

- Is implying if not actually feeding the OW stories that they will get a house but has not legally addressed the legal or financial obligations of the marital house. (and this is assuming that you are not dreaming up the whole house thing on your own without him actually saying a word about that in reality. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt on that one) 

- He has not divorced, ended contact with his wife. Nor has he purchased a ring, proposed marriage or secured a home for you and him as a couple and blended family. 

His past and current actions indicate that he is leisurely transitioning away from his wife in a leisurely manner at his convenience and that you are a warm bed and help with household expenses and a warm place to deposit his semen so that his prostate doesn't get too full while he transitions to single life and starts dating in earnest again.


----------



## samyeagar

Zanne said:


> Lynn, I'm sure it's obvious that I disagree with the thinking of some of the male posters here. Women tend to be more emotional, so I'm not sure if they get where you are at, but anyway, I think your biggest challenge is sorting yourself out. As you can see from your earlier posts, you are conflicted because of your emotions:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the general message in the following posts by EleGirl and Turnera (two very wise women) are helpful to you:
> 
> 
> 
> Please consider their advice. I wish you the very best. Please let us know how things turn out.


Emotional or pragmatic, everyone but you is telling her the same thing.


----------



## Zanne

Quality said:


> Several years ago I recall Syndey banning you {apparently only temporarily} for making similar statements celebrating adultery in contradiction to the purposes, terms, conditions or whatever of this forum {his words, not mine}. I'm not a moderator, but this seems to be pretty celebratory. Referring to an affair marriage as "successful" or a "happy ending", letting alone referring to it as a "love story" without regard to the wake of destruction left behind your seemingly fabricated couple "sitting in church with all their kids" and directly in the faces of so many persons destroyed by such, gag me, soul-sick "love" stories is beyond pale. Homewreckering relationships aren't built upon "shakey ground", they are steamrolled upon PEOPLE ~ devastated people crushed by the person that vowed to love them in good times and bad, sickness and in health. The betrayed spouses and the kids left behind are NOT footnotes in some horrors "love story" ~ they ARE the story.
> 
> IF the story of the church couple is true, I'd speculate they are 100% pretending. They always pretend because the hurt they inflicted on so many just HAS TO BE seemingly worth it. The pretend to each other and to everyone around them. They are people of the lie. Plus, they forever remain active adulterers who have no place in any biblical church. They should be confronted, disciplined and removed from the congregation if they refuse to "sin no more". The fact you are sitting there alongside this couple while in active rebellion is a testament to that body of Christ appearing to be infected. At the very least, I certainly hope neither you or them are in any leadership position.
> 
> If the story is false and you're just making it up to offer hope to this and any other "other women" that stops by, you are being very cruel in your dishonesty. The odds aren't just stacked up against this OP, her longstanding happiness and contentment with this married man is completely impossible. These relationships NEVER work and feeding her ongoing delusion and fantastical thinking with false hope is beyond mean.


For the record, Deejo banned me for inaction in my life, i.e., getting a job, getting free of my abusive husband, figuring my crap out. But I guess now I know who reported me. Yes, the story of the church couple is true. I do NOT condone or encourage adultery. OP stated early on that she did not consider two separated people to be cheaters. She stated that she thought most people dated when they were separated. I know it's not recommended to move in with someone before they are divorced, but she's not breaking any laws, unless her state has laws against adultery. Regardless, people are flawed, but I think there is plenty of hope for redemption and grace and forgiveness in any story. That's all I'm going to say on the matter. I'll bow out of this thread now for Lynn's benefit.


----------



## oldshirt

In other words, his actions are indicating that you are a placeholder and a warm bed and roommate and warm vagina to help him have an easier transition from married life to single life.

But it doesn't indicate that he is leaving her for you.

What we have all seen time and time again is a MM will hook up with an OW during the time he is transitioning out of the house to keep his tank drained and lessen the shock of going from married life to single life.

The chances are very very high that once he is fully out if the marital home and the divorce proceedings are under way or perhaps even after the divorce is final - he will settle into single life and will start dating single women and hooking up with chicks in bars.

After a period if time he may then start looking for another fulltime mate out of the pool of eligible single women he is dating. 

As many other posters have already mentioned here, it is very very rare for people to actually end up with one they are bumping uglies with at the time of their separation.

His actions are indicating to us that this is what is taking place here.


----------



## oldshirt

So I will go back to what I said in my earlier posts- if you want an unmarried man that does not have a wife and is not still involved in his marital business, date single and legally divorced men.


----------



## Blondilocks

Zanne said:


> *For the record, Deejo banned me for inaction in my life, i.e., getting a job, getting free of my abusive husband, figuring my crap out*. But I guess now I know who reported me. Yes, the story of the church couple is true. I do NOT condone or encourage adultery. OP stated early on that she did not consider two separated people to be cheaters. She stated that she thought most people dated when they were separated. I know it's not recommended to move in with someone before they are divorced, but she's not breaking any laws, unless her state has laws against adultery. Regardless, people are flawed, but I think there is plenty of hope for redemption and grace and forgiveness in any story. That's all I'm going to say on the matter. I'll bow out of this thread now for Lynn's benefit.


This really has me :scratchhead: Which TAM rule(s) did you break? There are several members who would be subject to being banned if the criteria were lack of progress in resolving their problems.


----------



## Melrose8888

oldshirt said:


> I'll give you a half point in that he is probably not planning on staying with his wife in the marital home.
> 
> However that does mean that he intends to marry you and have a permanent home and family with you so do not try to convince yourself that one plus one equals ten.
> 
> He has been bunking with you while he leisurely packs his stuff, feeds the cats and is still involving himself in his wife's and family's affairs (no pun intended)
> 
> The point many of us are trying make here is you can only judge people on their past accomplishments and current actions. You can not predict their future intents and future accomplishments based on their words.
> 
> If he wanted to be divorced from his wife, he would have filed and divorced her.
> 
> if he wanted to extract himself from her, he would have divorced her and not had contact with her.
> 
> If he wanted to be a single man and date single women, he would have divorced and started dating single/legally divorced women and not hooked up with woman who was still married (ie, you at the time he started schmoozing you).
> 
> If he wanted to remarry and make a new life with a viable candidate, he would have divorced his wife, started dating single/legally divorced women and then picked one, proposed marriage, bought a ring, talked to her daddy about marrying her, bought a house and got married.
> 
> In other words he would have done those things if those were things he wanted to do.
> 
> So lets look at what he has actually done -
> 
> - schmoozed and hit on a married woman and hooked her.
> 
> - probably got kicked out of the house for screwing around, but for the sake of argument let's say he voluntarily left the marital home.
> 
> - continued the affair with the OW and became roomies with her and cuddled up to her and told her she was great during her divorce.
> 
> - has not lifted a finger to actually initiate divorce proceedings with his wife.
> 
> - continues to visit and do things in the marital home including feeding the cats.
> 
> - has paid lip service to the OW saying that he will divorce and that the wife is somehow responsible for the divorce proceedings not moving forward.
> 
> - Is implying if not actually feeding the OW stories that they will get a house but has not legally addressed the legal or financial obligations of the marital house. (and this is assuming that you are not dreaming up the whole house thing on your own without him actually saying a word about that in reality. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt on that one)
> 
> - He has not divorced, ended contact with his wife. Nor has he purchased a ring, proposed marriage or secured a home for you and him as a couple and blended family.
> 
> His past and current actions indicate that he is leisurely transitioning away from his wife in a leisurely manner at his convenience and that you are a warm bed and help with household expenses and a warm place to deposit his semen so that his prostate doesn't get too full while he transitions to single life and starts dating in earnest again.


Wow! Although I find little need to assess my XWW POSOM, every single thing you mention here is EXACTLY what is happening in the world of the mother of my sons. Now, given I know the POSOMs history (3rd marriage, 4th affair, B****ter at work) the only piece of advice I can give is what everyone else says:

Peoples past actions are a very good indicator of future behaviour

One thing I would add, it is commonly accepted that at around the 2 year mark people phase out of the limerance stage of the relationship and the **** gets real. Given you guys are pretty close to this milestone, it could be the start of (further) indecision by him.

Oh, and it's still far too much drama. Either you like this attention or my advice is to go find the man you really need, cause this guys ain't it. Love or no 'love'.


----------



## turnera

oldshirt said:


> So???????
> 
> Ever hear the term, "move out?"
> 
> You make this sound complicated..... it isn't. It is quite simple.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Zanne said:


> Lynn, I'm sure it's obvious that I disagree with the thinking of some of the male posters here. Women tend to be more emotional, so I'm not sure if they get where you are at, but anyway, I think your biggest challenge is sorting yourself out. As you can see from your earlier posts, you are conflicted because of your emotions:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the general message in the following posts by EleGirl and Turnera (two very wise women) are helpful to you:
> 
> 
> 
> Please consider their advice. I wish you the very best. Please let us know how things turn out.


Ah yes, when people disagree it is always good to play the race, country or gender card because the other people do not get it. 

It has nothing to do with gender because, if you go through the thread, most disagree with the situation regardless of being male or female.


----------



## samyeagar

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Ah yes, when people disagree it is always good to play the race, country or gender card because the other people do not get it.
> 
> It has nothing to do with gender because, if you go through the thread, most disagree with the situation regardless of being male or female.


And some people, regardless of the subject, are just wired to ignore the 999 people saying something is bad, and latch onto the one that says it's no problem.


----------



## oldshirt

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Oh and ftr my Dad and his AP are still married 15+ years later.
> 
> It's a small chance for the AP but not 0.
> 
> But when he left, he left and never looked back. The divorce was filed instantly and he never was wishy washy about it.


This is an important point to make. I think all of know at least a few couples who married their APs and a number of years later things seem to be ok with them. 

It can and does happen and I know a couple couples in my own personal life that are still married and seem OK many years later. 

In both instances they packed up their bags, moved out, filed for divorce, pushed the divorce through as fast as they could (one literally left with her clothes and personal trinkets and her car and left everything where it was sitting in the house and let him have everything) and then they married the AP as soon as the divorce was final. 

One couple I know met on a Friday night. Were fully involved in the affair by Sunday and both packed up and left and filed on their respective spouses the following week. 

People do leave bad marriages for their APs periodically. And when that happens, it happens in days or weeks - not years. 

Any time an affair lasts more than a couple of months, it is cake-eating. 

It's either cake-eating or it is using the AP as a bed warmer until they have everything extracted out of the spouse and marriage as they can get and then they transition to divorced life and 9.9 times out of 10 leave the AP behind once they are single and on the open dating market.


----------



## lynn11374

in the case with my BF, he does not dislike the wife or feel she did anything wrong to him. He feels she is a good person but they were mismatched, which is why he was unhappy. He wants to make sure she is emotionally OK before moving forward with the divorce, addition to making sure nothing crazy happens with the finances. He wants me to support him during this process. Which I told him I would. However I think my patience is being abused at this point, because I expected some real action by now. He says he is ready, but she is making a case that he's being insensitive to try to push her suddenly through the process while she's sick. She says why is it suddenly a rush? So hopefully he gives her this, and doesn't except any more stalling. Otherwise, I'm out.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

lynn11374 said:


> in the case with my BF, he does not dislike the wife or feel she did anything wrong to him. He feels she is a good person but they were mismatched, which is why he was unhappy. He wants to make sure she is emotionally OK before moving forward with the divorce, addition to making sure nothing crazy happens with the finances. He wants me to support him during this process. Which I told him I would. However I think my patience is being abused at this point, because I expected some real action by now. He says he is ready, but she is making a case that he's being insensitive to try to push her suddenly through the process while she's sick. She says why is it suddenly a rush? So hopefully he gives her this, and doesn't except any more stalling. Otherwise, I'm out.


Her not fully understanding makes me think that he has given her mixed signals, tried to keep stringing her along, making it seem like there was hope so now she doesn't know what changed. If he was clear from day 1 that they were not getting back together she would not be shocked now. 

Secondly, it is much more harmful to her for him to drag it out. If he cared at all about it he would give her a quick and simple divorce, what she is entitled to and let her start to move on with her life. Instead he is dragging it out, keeping her close and not giving her any closure. 

Thirdly, him saying he is ready means nothing until he actually does it. I think you are right to be out if he lets this go on anymore but be clear about what it means to you. No more cat feeding, no more monthly visits. All that stops too. 
Postponing a divorce because of a minor procedure? That's a ridiculous excuse IMO. If he wanted to do it he would. 
At this point you should be coming first and you're not. She is. I couldn't be with a man who put another woman above me.


----------



## lynn11374

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Her not fully understanding makes me think that he has given her mixed signals, tried to keep stringing her along, making it seem like there was hope so now she doesn't know what changed. If he was clear from day 1 that they were not getting back together she would not be shocked now.
> 
> Secondly, it is much more harmful to her for him to drag it out. If he cared at all about it he would give her a quick and simple divorce, what she is entitled to and let her start to move on with her life. Instead he is dragging it out, keeping her close and not giving her any closure.
> 
> Thirdly, him saying he is ready means nothing until he actually does it. I think you are right to be out if he lets this go on anymore but be clear about what it means to you. No more cat feeding, no more monthly visits. All that stops too.
> Postponing a divorce because of a minor procedure? That's a ridiculous excuse IMO. If he wanted to do it he would.
> At this point you should be coming first and you're not. She is. I couldn't be with a man who put another woman above me.


 I agree with all of this. He has admitted to giving her hope to temporarily ease her pain when he thought she was going over the edge. He said he realizes this is wrong and more harmful in the long run.


----------



## Quality

Zanne said:


> For the record, Deejo banned me for inaction in my life, i.e., getting a job, getting free of my abusive husband, figuring my crap out. But I guess now I know who reported me. Yes, the story of the church couple is true. I do NOT condone or encourage adultery. OP stated early on that she did not consider two separated people to be cheaters. She stated that she thought most people dated when they were separated. I know it's not recommended to move in with someone before they are divorced, but she's not breaking any laws, unless her state has laws against adultery. Regardless, people are flawed, but I think there is plenty of hope for redemption and grace and forgiveness in any story. That's all I'm going to say on the matter. I'll bow out of this thread now for Lynn's benefit.


Yeah, I surely reported you two or so years before arriving here. 

Maybe it WAS Deejo that actually banned you. I have no idea. All I know is what I read last night on the old lurking waywards thread and on your unraveling thread. 

Here's what Sidney posted about it {whether Sidney was a mod at the time or not, I don't know}:



Sidney2718 on 8/14/2014 said:


> Zanne was banned for pushing a point of view that is detrimental to the overall aims of TAM. Those aims are to attempt to preserve marriages where possible and in cases where it is not, to allow for a decent divorce.


I saw you mention you met your Married Man here on TAM and conducted your affair using private messaging and on the lurking thread, it was said you had had other supposedly inappropriate private message relationships on TAM {or elsewhere} as well. I sure hope for your married man's sake they disabled that feature for you when you were reinstated. 

Yes, "people" are certainly flawed and I, too, have hope for redemption, grace and forgiveness for everyone. I gave such to my wife two decades ago. But you and I both know that's only possible AFTER repentance. Further, to present such kind seeming words while implying I'm the mean bully here while you continue the destruction of your own marriage {after reading through those old threads I can't believe you JUST now, 3 years later, filed for divorce from that supposedly awful stbxh of yours}, abandonment of your 5 children {probably better for them emotionally to just see you as vacation mom now anyway} and home wrecking your married man's family, is absolutely ridiculous nonsense. Decent, kind, loving people don't refer to affair marriages as "love stories". They don't sit by on a marriage death watch researching and strategizing divorce laws so as to extract the most favorable and TIMELY settlements for their married man from the target of their emotional abuse, those wicked betrayed wives {who are just the "shaky ground" footnotes of YOUR love story}. 

OP, I KNOW we likely sound so mean to you but I hope you come back after you inevitable extract yourself from this destructive relationship and realize the kindness being extended to you, despite your wicked home wrecking behavior, by so many betrayed spouses trying to help you see how desperate and hopeless this affair relationship with someone else's husband really is. You're right, don't tell your married man what to do about his marriage ~ it's none of your business ~ never was ~ just leave ~ just end it ~ just move on and commit yourself to "no contact for life". Once it's all over, you'll be shocked at how much clarity was expressed to you here the last few days and it'll be mindboggling to you how your brain just couldn't fathom connecting those same easy to see dots. You want better ~ do better.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

lynn11374 said:


> I agree with all of this. He has admitted to giving her hope to temporarily ease her pain when he thought she was going over the edge. He said he realizes this is wrong and more harmful in the long run.


Yes, you said this in your OP and other posts. What I am saying is, it hasn't changed. Again, he realizes it is wrong, but he chooses not to stop. Why? You let it continue. See, the sad thing is, the person you agreed with earlier, not SGC, has a very INTERESTING back story which is now deleted. To me, the friendly reminder about deejo made me understand why she said "just wait it out." It isn't an emotional gender thing at all.

Edit:
Oops, well I was being vague to stop a derail. Quality put it out there for all to see.


----------



## lynn11374

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, you said this in your OP and other posts. What I am saying is, it hasn't changed. Again, he realizes it is wrong, but he chooses not to stop. Why? You let it continue. See, the sad thing is, the person you agreed with earlier, not SGC, has a very INTERESTING back story which is now deleted. To me, the friendly reminder about deejo made me understand why she said "just wait it out." It isn't an emotional gender thing at all.
> 
> Edit:
> Oops, well I was being vague to stop a derail. Quality put it out there for all to see.


 You are right, I let it continue. I started looking at apartments to prepare myself for moving out if he does not make any real steps after Labor Day as he says he will.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

lynn11374 said:


> You are right, I let it continue. I started looking at apartments to prepare myself for moving out if he does not make any real steps after Labor Day as he says he will.


I think this will tell you a lot of the information you need. If he's willing to lose you over it then it's not worth it. 

I do think you may still have issues with his boundaries with her and trying to keep her happy even after he files so keep on it. If he files by Labour day, good. Then he has to follow through with it, then he has to severe his life from hers completely. (No kids = no reason to have them in your life) You still have a lot of waiting it out and if each step is going to be like pulling teeth for him, it's going to get exhausting


----------



## lynn11374

Quality said:


> Yeah, I surely reported you two or so years before arriving here.
> 
> Maybe it WAS Deejo that actually banned you. I have no idea. All I know is what I read last night on the old lurking waywards thread and on your unraveling thread.
> 
> Here's what Sidney posted about it {whether Sidney was a mod at the time or not, I don't know}:
> 
> 
> 
> I saw you mention you met your Married Man here on TAM and conducted your affair using private messaging and on the lurking thread, it was said you had had other supposedly inappropriate private message relationships on TAM {or elsewhere} as well. I sure hope for your married man's sake they disabled that feature for you when you were reinstated.
> 
> Yes, "people" are certainly flawed and I, too, have hope for redemption, grace and forgiveness for everyone. I gave such to my wife two decades ago. But you and I both know that's only possible AFTER repentance. Further, to present such kind seeming words while implying I'm the mean bully here while you continue the destruction of your own marriage {after reading through those old threads I can't believe you JUST now, 3 years later, filed for divorce from that supposedly awful stbxh of yours}, abandonment of your 5 children {probably better for them emotionally to just see you as vacation mom now anyway} and home wrecking your married man's family, is absolutely ridiculous nonsense. Decent, kind, loving people don't refer to affair marriages as "love stories". They don't sit by on a marriage death watch researching and strategizing divorce laws so as to extract the most favorable and TIMELY settlements for their married man from the target of their emotional abuse, those wicked betrayed wives {who are just the "shaky ground" footnotes of YOUR love story}.
> 
> OP, I KNOW we likely sound so mean to you but I hope you come back after you inevitable extract yourself from this destructive relationship and realize the kindness being extended to you, despite your wicked home wrecking behavior, by so many betrayed spouses trying to help you see how desperate and hopeless this affair relationship with someone else's husband really is. You're right, don't tell your married man what to do about his marriage ~ it's none of your business ~ never was ~ just leave ~ just end it ~ just move on and commit yourself to "no contact for life". Once it's all over, you'll be shocked at how much clarity was expressed to you here the last few days and it'll be mindboggling to you how your brain just couldn't fathom connecting those same easy to see dots. You want better ~ do better.


 While I appreciate your input, I take issue with your use of the term home wrecking. I believe people are responsible for their own actions. Towards the end of my marriage, my ex was having an EA around the time that he suddenly wanted to move out. They are still happily dating and they are in Europe right now meeting her family. This does not mean I condone affairs in any way, I do not support any kind of dishonesty. However, I do not blame her for the break up of my marriage. That was between my ex and me and needed to happen. She did not force my ex to do anything and in fact, did us a favor because we should not have stayed together. No such thing as home wrecking when you are dealing with two consensual adults in a marriage.


----------



## Quality

lynn11374 said:


> He feels she is a good person but they were mismatched, which is why he was unhappy.


If SHE is/was a good person, and they are mismatched, what does that make him?

He's bad, really, really bad.


If he doesn't dislike his wife or feel like she did anything wrong and she's a good person and he STILL dumps her after taking vows to love her forever, in sickness and in health, til death do us part, then how do you stand a chance to keep this man should he ever actually become single? 

In other words, he feels perfectly entitled to throw away a kind, good and faithful wife, why would he not feel even more entitled to throwing you away too, once your financial and sexual usefulness to him isn't as necessary or enabling. There weren't exactly a whole lot of women likely lining up to date and support your still married man at the time you "won" his affections. That'll change if and when you get your way and he actually gets divorced. You'll soon find yourself on that island of "mismatched" toys with his wife if you're foolish enough to stick around waiting for him.


----------



## Quality

lynn11374 said:


> While I appreciate your input, I take issue with your use of the term home wrecking. I believe people are responsible for their own actions. Towards the end of my marriage, my ex was having an EA around the time that he suddenly wanted to move out. They are still happily dating and they are in Europe right now meeting her family. This does not mean I condone affairs in any way, I do not support any kind of dishonesty. However, I do not blame her for the break up of my marriage. That was between my ex and me and needed to happen. She did not force my ex to do anything and in fact, did us a favor because we should not have stayed together. No such thing as home wrecking when you are dealing with two consensual adults in a marriage.


But what about the cat's home? 

Cat's lives matter.


----------



## turnera

lynn11374 said:


> So hopefully he gives her this, and doesn't except any more stalling. Otherwise, I'm out.


By what date? Now you're saying he's going to do 'something' by Labor Day. That's pretty ambiguous.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

lynn11374 said:


> While I appreciate your input, I take issue with your use of the term home wrecking. I believe people are responsible for their own actions. Towards the end of my marriage, my ex was having an EA around the time that he suddenly wanted to move out. They are still happily dating and they are in Europe right now meeting her family. This does not mean I condone affairs in any way, I do not support any kind of dishonesty. However, I do not blame her for the break up of my marriage. That was between my ex and me and needed to happen. She did not force my ex to do anything and in fact, did us a favor because we should not have stayed together. No such thing as home wrecking when you are dealing with two consensual adults in a marriage.


It's good you don't blame her, but it doesn't mean she doesn't share blame in wrecking your home. To be clear, there were three adults in your marriage and only two consented.


----------



## Malaise

lynn11374 said:


> This is true. I guess I'm holding onto actions that do signal his goal is a future with me, such as the fact he is clearing his stuff out of the marital home and wanting to start the process of buying a house with me.* Those are not the actions of someone who's intent is returning to the wife*.


Know what actions just scream " not returning to his wife" ?

Filing for divorce.


----------



## oldshirt

Lynn, how many times have you sat down with his wife and had an open dialogue with her about all of this stuff? 

Look back through all of your posts and count all of the times you have used the term "....he said...." 

You realize he is likely filling you full of pahooey right? You know he is lying and misleading her so that means he is a lier and what would make you think he isn't just telling you what you want to hear to get you off of his back and to keep you providing a warm bed and a place to stay and a warm vagina? 

You also need to understand that even if he files tomorrow, there are still a million more intermediate steps being filling out a piece of paper and the gavel coming down declaring them legally divorced. He can postpone and delay every single one of those steps indefinitely as well. 

And a divorce petition can be withdrawn at any point before the final decree is signed. 

This could literally take several more years if he decided to draw it out more, even if he did file the paperwork. 

Where he was telling you the truth is when he says he wants your support. The part that you are not getting is that the support you are providing is a warm bed, moist vagina, a place to stay and help with rent and other living expenses while he takes his time and leisurely transitions to singlehood. 

Is that the same as what you intended to sign up for?


----------



## oldshirt

Quality said:


> In other words, he feels perfectly entitled to throw away a kind, good and faithful wife, why would he not feel even more entitled to throwing you away too, once your financial and sexual usefulness to him isn't as necessary or enabling. There weren't exactly a whole lot of women likely lining up to date and support your still married man at the time you "won" his affections. That'll change if and when you get your way and he actually gets divorced. You'll soon find yourself on that island of "mismatched" toys with his wife if you're foolish enough to stick around waiting for him.


This is a very important point that needs further deliberation. 

Assuming he is reasonably attractive and successful, he will have a world of opportunity as a single man. 

Very very few women will be a married man's side piece while he tries to make up his mind if he will divorce or not. 

About the only women that will take in a MM as a placeholder and bed warmer is someone who's self esteem has been damaged (as in a recent divorcee herself) or someone who is very naïve and believes everything that a charming man tells them. 

The point is, he has very slim pickings as a married man for someone who will believe his stories and stand by him and support him and sleep with him while he leisurely takes his time transitioning to single life. 

Conversely, once he is actually divorced, he will have a whole world of single and divorced women to date and hook up with. 

He obviously had some serious marriage issues and there are some reasons to believe that he will not remain happily married with his wife. However, there is nothing here indicating that he is leaving his wife "FOR" you. You simply happen to be the one he is shacking up with while he sorts through his stuff and contemplates moving on. 

That is a big difference and an important point to understand. 

With the possible exception of Zanne, everyone here gets that, but I don't think you are quite getting it. 

You are holding on to little IOU's printed on the back of cocktail napkins and thinking they are binding agreements here. You are buying everything you are being told by him and he is a proven lier and cheater. 

My suggestion is disengage yourself completely from their drama, move out on your own, develop your own life, start dating actual single men and then if some time down the road he shows up with his final divorce decree signed by a judge in his hand and asks you out on a legitimate date, you can take that into consideration like you would any other date offer. 

But you are being chumped and played for a fool if you are believing anything he is saying without seeing divorce decree in his hand. 

When you see his divorce record online and see him living in his own house and living his own life as a single man, then you are welcome to accept or decline his date offer as you see fit. 

But until then you are just being played a fool.


----------



## *Deidre*

It seems from the more I read of your story, that you're actually in an affair, not in a relationship with a guy in the process of a divorce. It sounds like he is playing you both (I've said this before) and you're essentially dating a married man. I think that you should completely end it, and tell him...when he is divorcing her, to call you. I have a feeling you might not hear from him, again. He also seems like the kind of guy that needs another woman waiting in the wings while he ends one relationship. You sound like a very smart woman, I'd not fall for this guy's lines anymore.


----------



## oldshirt

*Deidre* said:


> It seems from the more I read of your story, that you're actually in an affair, not in a relationship with a guy in the process of a divorce. It sounds like he is playing you both (I've said this before) and you're essentially dating a married man. I think that you should completely end it, and tell him...when he is divorcing her, to call you. I have a feeling you might not hear from him, again. He also seems like the kind of guy that needs another woman waiting in the wings while he ends one relationship. You sound like a very smart woman, I'd not fall for this guy's lines anymore.


I agree with what you said, but would urge you to consider changing "....divorcing her...." to "once the divorce is completely final..."

He is already telling her he is "divorcing" her and she is buying it hook line and sinker and has been for the past 1 and 1/2 years. She should be skeptical of every word out of his mouth and only believe what she can independently verify through public legal record.


----------



## Adelais

lynn11374 said:


> I would not be surprised. He said he went to the house yesterday while she wasn't there to pick up something he left behind accidentally and to see the cats, and he saw an eye gauze and ointment lying on the counter. So it apparently is true. However, she was at work. so how bad could it be if she is able to work at her job?


She can work a full shift, but she can't meet for an hour or two conversation about the details of a divorce.

You didn't need the information he gave you about seeing the gauze. He is still trying to defend his position to you. Don't listen to another word from him, as it is all maneuvering and manipulation.

YOU ARE NOT CRAZY! Trust your instincts this time, and don't let yourself get talked into doing what you know is wrong.


----------



## Adelais

Zanne said:


> I personally know a couple in my church who even sit together at church with his ex and all of their children in the same row. A great deal of work went into those relationships and their life isn't perfect, but *they are happier than most people.*


Oh really? And how do you know how happy they and *most people* are?
Making up statements like that doesn't make it true. You have absolutely no basis for such a comparison.

In the case of the poor betrayed spouse in your story, they are probably stuffing a lot of emotions in order to be able to sit in with their children, and allow the WS and AP to sit in the same row. They probably got pressure from the church leadership to "forgive" and this is what forgiveness looks like to them.

One can forgive, but that doesn't mean you have to set a poor example to your children. IMO the WS and AP need to be sitting somewhere else, to show the children that there are consequences for sin. The WS and AP should have found a different church to attend, where they will hear the word of God and hopefully repent of their sin of adultery.


----------



## Zanne

Araucaria said:


> Oh really? And how do you know how happy they and *most people* are?
> Making up statements like that doesn't make it true. You have absolutely no basis for such a comparison.


I should have stated that my friends are happier than most people I know. There are lots of miserable people out there; I see many on this board alone.

I'm not making up statements. This is a couple from my church back home who I know very well because we were close friends and neighbors for many years and attended church small group together. I have heard their personal story and struggles. It was his church and the ex rarely attended when they were married. He was separated from the ex when he met his current wife and he even went back to the ex at one point to work on things because they had young children, but eventually they separated again and divorced. They remained friends and of course co-parents and that's how I met the ex - she was often at family gatherings, even his 50th birthday party. The ex started coming to our church and it was not unusual to see everyone sit together because that's how they are as a family. She is now remarried as well. It's an unusual story, but it's true. 



Araucaria said:


> In the case of the poor betrayed spouse in your story, they are probably stuffing a lot of emotions in order to be able to sit in with their children, and allow the WS and AP to sit in the same row. They probably got pressure from the church leadership to "forgive" and this is what forgiveness looks like to them.
> 
> One can forgive, but that doesn't mean you have to set a poor example to your children. IMO the WS and AP need to be sitting somewhere else, to show the children that there are consequences for sin. The WS and AP should have found a different church to attend, where they will hear the word of God and hopefully repent of their sin of adultery.


I don't know what was settled between them and the church or God for that matter; that's their business. I specifically stated that it took a lot of work to get to where they are today. I wasn't trying to paint a happily ever after picture. I was trying share a situation where people messed up, but it wasn't their end story. I think you made many assumptions in your post to me, with lots of "probably's" in your post.

I didn't share it to piss people off. I’m not trying to glorify infidelity. I thought it was an example of people healing and setting aside their hurt and differences for the sake of the family. What's done is done in terms of the marriages in that story, but there were many paths to their future. Like Lynn’s story, the husband was separated from his wife and he met someone (who was actually already divorced) and he started dating her. The timing was not good and I absolutely do not think it was ideal or romantic or whatever. In fact, he later admitted that it was a rebound relationship, but I also know that he has been very committed to making better choices in his life and I believe his current marriage will be his last. I do not believe they are faking their happiness. I know there was plenty of dysfunction in the beginning and the healing didn’t happen overnight. I was trying to share a similar story to give another perspective and more than that, I was trying to help Lynn regardless of how her situation turns out. I do wish her the best and I hope she considers all of the feedback she received here.


----------



## Zanne

Quality said:


> I saw you mention you met your Married Man here on TAM and conducted your affair using private messaging and on the lurking thread, it was said you had had other supposedly inappropriate private message relationships on TAM {or elsewhere} as well. I sure hope for your married man's sake they disabled that feature for you when you were reinstated.


I disabled the Private Message feature a long time ago on this board and others. In fact, I have it disabled DM features on all of my social media as well. You may be surprised to know that I'm actually rather old fashioned at heart and I've gone 180 in my thinking about opposite sex "friends."

Again, OP stated early on that she is not religious and did not feel that she was having an affair since she and her boyfriend were both separated from their former partners when they met.

I sincerely apologize if it looks like I am romanticizing affairs. I truly think infidelity is destructive for all parties involved. Whether we all agree that OP is in an affair is neither here nor there because in the end, it is probably better to get to the root of her decision making process, which is where I focused most of my efforts in my posts to her. I know that direction has helped me most in my own messed up life. I really don't want to take anymore time from Lynn's thread. I hope she benefited from the advice she received here. She's in a difficult position to be sure.


----------



## Dannip

OP,

Would you ever date or be involved with a man who is known to cheat?

Would you ever carry on a relationship with a married man?

You are.


----------



## Quality

Zanne said:


> I thought it was an example of people healing and setting aside their hurt and differences for the sake of the family. What's done is done in terms of the marriages in that story, but there were many paths to their future.


I realize this is the wayward fantasy {both the wayward spouse and their paramour} but it's a horrible thing to model for children. It teaches them that they, like their hurting betrayed parent, are required to suck it up, set aside all complaints, differences and hurts ~~~ for the sake of the family.

This USUALLY occurs under the implied threat that, like the wayward spouse, the children too will be discarded and ignored, should they continue to TRY to hold their parent accountable, share their pain or make the wayward parent uncomfortable or feeling "judged" in any manner at any time. They also better not upset their wicked {and way to often} antagonizing juvenile wayward step parent either.

This model of "setting aside hurt" for the sake of the family teaches children that they don't matter. "Others" are more important than them. Children aren't stupid ~ they KNOW things are messed up and; yet, they have to sit and pretend along with everyone else it's OK ~ for the sake of the family. 

This model creates children that one day become adults themselves and unable to extract themselves from abusive {physically and/or emotionally} relationships, after all ~ they, too, need to set aside their hurt and differences for the sake of the relationship.


What's "done" ISN'T done. That man {or his wife} should end their sham of a marriage and try to fix their true marriages with their original spouses OR just remain single.

An affair doesn't become OK or other than adultery when the adulterers undertake a mock legal, but unbiblical, marriage. They still need to "go, and sin no more", just like everyone else.


----------



## Blondilocks

@Quality, are you Roman Catholic?


----------



## Quality

Blondilocks said:


> @Quality, are you Roman Catholic?


no


----------



## Zanne

@Quality, did you not read the part where Lynn said she is not religious? There are many, many, many, people who date when they are separated. Is it a good idea? Nope. And I think Lynn is finding that to be true.

Regardless, your advice for everyone to return to their original marriages isn't helpful. In some cases, you are asking people to return to abusive relationships. You also made assumptions about my church friends and their family, but I'm not going to defend them here. They have been married over ten years now. They met when he was separated from his wife. Unlike Lynn's boyfriend, he and his wife divorced quickly and a few years later he proposed to his current wife and a year later they were married. It may have taken him awhile to figure out his life and there are consequences for that, but he should not feel that his current marriage and life is a sham. Where is God's grace in that line of thinking?

There are many people on this board who are in second or even third marriages. I wonder how many of them dated while they were separated? I don't think it's helpful to tell them that their marriages are a sham. It's hard enough for people to overcome the shame and stigma that comes with divorce. I think it's safe to say that Lynn did not seek out an adulterous relationship. I think she made a bad choice to date so soon after her own separation and to date another in the same place. Now she knows why it's not a good idea. My situation is different in that regard and I'm not going to speak to it here. The issue at hand is that her boyfriend is not following through on that divorce and that should raise some red flags for her. His pattern of thinking and his conflict avoidance should be a concern for her. Now she is aware. Now she can act. Shaming her doesn't help her at all. IMHO.


----------



## Quality

Zanne said:


> @Quality, did you not read the part where Lynn said she is not religious? There are many, many, many, people who date when they are separated. Is it a good idea? Nope. And I think Lynn is finding that to be true.
> 
> Regardless, your advice for everyone to return to their original marriages isn't helpful. In some cases, you are asking people to return to abusive relationships. You also made assumptions about my church friends and their family, but I'm not going to defend them here. They have been married over ten years now. They met when he was separated from his wife. Unlike Lynn's boyfriend, he and his wife divorced quickly and a few years later he proposed to his current wife and a year later they were married. It may have taken him awhile to figure out his life and there are consequences for that, but he should not feel that his current marriage and life is a sham. Where is God's grace in that line of thinking?
> 
> There are many people on this board who are in second or even third marriages. I wonder how many of them dated while they were separated? I don't think it's helpful to tell them that their marriages are a sham. It's hard enough for people to overcome the shame and stigma that comes with divorce. I think it's safe to say that Lynn did not seek out an adulterous relationship. I think she made a bad choice to date so soon after her own separation and to date another in the same place. Now she knows why it's not a good idea. My situation is different in that regard and I'm not going to speak to it here. The issue at hand is that her boyfriend is not following through on that divorce and that should raise some red flags for her. His pattern of thinking and his conflict avoidance should be a concern for her. Now she is aware. Now she can act. Shaming her doesn't help her at all. IMHO.


Thanks for waysplaining it to me.

If either you or her are currently actually capable of feeling any shame over your behavior, that's a good thing. It's a sign you should stop it behaving shamefully. The fasted way to not feeling shameful isn't me not talking about it or pointing it out, it's you two not behaving shamefully.

In other words, it's not "shaming" to point out shameful behavior, it's shameful to behave shamefully.


Lynns "feelings" about whether it's cheating or not are irrelevant to the fact their relationship is adulterous and, likewise doomed to failure and misery. Her "decision process" should be over. Getting out is the only logical and reasonable advice, yet, you, now, supposedly claim you just wanted to help her by leading her through a "decision process" towards ending it. But that really doesn't jibe with your advice telling her how to go about 180'ing him and getting her MM to divorce his wife quicker, does it? 

The supposed Christian couple in your church is even more culpable having had years to actually think about and do the right thing {the bible lays it out pretty clearly} but it's interesting how the story is sounding less and less like the typical affair situation you wanted it to represent let alone the "love story" you first referred to it as. What a mess? Where was/is the leadership at that supposed church?


----------



## Zanne

Quality said:


> But that really doesn't jibe with your advice telling her how to go about 180'ing him and getting her MM to divorce his wife quicker, does it?


I think you misunderstood anything I posted to Lynn about her boyfriend's divorce. Yes, I commiserated with her about being stuck in limbo, HOWEVER, I urged her to focus on herself and let him do his thing. My mention of the 180 was explicitly for that reason. I even reinforced my position by saying the 180 is not for winning back your partner, it's more about gaining respect for yourself, among other things. I think you're just bent on harassing me because I'm an "evil WW." And let's just agree to disagree about what the Bible says about divorce and remarriage.


----------



## lynn11374

So he reached out to her yesterday to set up a time to meet to start the process despite her eye issue, rather than wait until after labor day which was the original plan he agreed to with her. She agreed to meet tonight, and just bailed on him last minute, asking to reschedule next week. He pushed back and insisted on meeting earlier. This is the first time he did not pull back when she tried to stall things. I’m showing him I’m not willing to just wait around so I’m hoping this gets us somewhere. I’ve set my dealdline of Oct 1. The lease is up November so this gives me time to find an apartment if needed.


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## samyeagar

lynn11374 said:


> So he reached out to her yesterday to set up a time to meet to start the process despite her eye issue, rather than wait until after labor day which was the original plan he agreed to with her. She agreed to meet tonight, and just bailed on him last minute, asking to reschedule next week. He pushed back and insisted on meeting earlier. This is the first time he did not pull back when she tried to stall things. I’m showing him I’m not willing to just wait around so I’m hoping this gets us somewhere. I’ve set my dealdline of Oct 1. The lease is up November so this gives me time to find an apartment if needed.


That could be a positive step, or he just managed to get you to move your timeline back nearly a month...


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## Livvie

They don't have to meet at all. This isn't a process they start "together". He can file a divorce petition by himself whenever he wants. Like, tomorrow.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Update is positive but I don't get why they have to meet either. 

He just goes to the courthouse and files. 

Any meets they do have should be set up with a mediator. They don't ever have to be alone together to get this done and really shouldn't be. This shouldn't be done with emotions and feelings. It's legal. Let the trained legal staff deal with it.


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## lynn11374

I agree, but am trying not to "attack" him every time he shares an update. I think maybe he wants them to be on the same page regarding certain things before involving the mediator.


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## turnera

This is what happens when you stand up for yourself - you get respected.


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## Livvie

lynn11374 said:


> I agree, but am trying not to "attack" him every time he shares an update. I think maybe he wants them to be on the same page regarding certain things before involving the mediator.


But he hasn't even filed yet. No one has even started the process. People who want to be divorced file for divorce. People who want to be divorced and want to start a life with someone else especially file for divorce. They do it in a matter of weeks.

I divorced after 16 years of marriage. There was more to lose-- property and assets and entanglements with two CHILDREN were raising- than this man is facing. I ****ing filed when I knew that I could no longer remain married! No excuse in the world for this man to not have gotten this done, eons ago.


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## oldshirt

He does not need her consent, cooperation or assistance to divorce. It only takes one person to file for and achieve a divorce. It doesn't matter if she agrees to it or not if he actually pursues it and makes it happen. 

Nothing her counts until he actually has the final decree in hand. 

This is all still just words.


----------



## turnera

Well, it's more than she had the day before. Lynn, just don't let up, ok? Let him see you moving on with your life if he doesn't take real action.


----------



## Magnesium

lynn11374 said:


> So he reached out to her yesterday to set up a time to meet to start the process despite her eye issue, rather than wait until after labor day which was the original plan he agreed to with her. She agreed to meet tonight, and just bailed on him last minute, asking to reschedule next week. He pushed back and insisted on meeting earlier. This is the first time he did not pull back when she tried to stall things. I’m showing him I’m not willing to just wait around so I’m hoping this gets us somewhere. I’ve set my dealdline of Oct 1. The lease is up November so this gives me time to find an apartment if needed.


You remind of me of the starving street children in Calcutta who pick the undigested grains out of poop left by goats and donkeys in the road. 

It is hard to watch; prompting overwhelming pity and disgust. The difference, though, is that I have compassion for those starving kids because they are without other options. You, on the other hand, have many options you are refusing to take. You are simply choosing this. 

In the end, we all get what we deserve based on the choices we make. You may want to do some serious contemplating about what you expect to actually get from the sum of all of your choices.


----------



## *Deidre*

It's progress, but that's like six weeks to file? lol 

I honestly understand that you're emotionally invested with this guy, but something honestly doesn't seem right with this dude's stories. I can almost imagine you posting November 1st, after he blows off the October 1st 'deadline.' 

My advice, fwiw...I'd stop treating him like a bf. If you want to hang out as friends, great...but he needs to see that he doesn't control your future. You do. Right now, he thinks he does. Right now, he thinks that he calls all the shots, and you are just waiting and waiting...and men lose respect for women that act like this, women lose respect for men who don't have boundaries.

You keep moving your own boundaries to suit whatever it is these two are doing. My guess is...he's lying to you. It's just a gut feeling I have, sadly. I would pull way back, and keep the October deadline, but I wouldn't sleep with him, etc...until he files. Otherwise, you are involved with a married man, willingly. I get that you thought he was in the process of divorcing when this all started, but he isn't. And you know that, now.

So, that's just my advice. It's hard, but no matter what, sticking by your own choices will pay off.


----------



## oldshirt

turnera said:


> Well, it's more than she had the day before. Lynn, just don't let up, ok? Let him see you moving on with your life if he doesn't take real action.


It really isn't any better than the day before because it is all still just words and it is him saying what he is "gonna" do. He says he is going to do something and then the slightest little thing derails it.

My grandmother called this, "The Gonna's" and that "Gonna's" don't count for anything. Only things that have actually been completed count. 

Don't just let him see you move on with your life if he doesn't take action.

Actually move on with your life and then if he shows up one day and is actually divorced and on his own, you can decide at that point if you want to do anything with him or not.


----------



## oldshirt

@lynn11374

You haven't answered my question; have you met with and had a discussion with his wife about any of this?

If this is all above-board and it is a legitimate separation between them and a legitimate LTR with you and him, then there should be no issues with you sitting down and having an open, adult discussion on how all of you are going to move forward and blend families and work together towards this divorce and your future relationships moving forward.

Sitting down and discussing this with her will help corroborate his accounts of why they are having issues moving this divorce forward and you can talk with her to find out what is needed to get this situation moving along.

Have you had this discussion with her yet to get better insight into what the hang ups are on their end?


----------



## *Deidre*

oldshirt said:


> @lynn11374
> 
> You haven't answered my question; have you met with and had a discussion with his wife about any of this?
> 
> If this is all above-board and it is a legitimate separation between them and a legitimate LTR with you and him, then there should be no issues with you sitting down and having an open, adult discussion on how all of you are going to move forward and blend families and work together towards this divorce and your future relationships moving forward.
> 
> Sitting down and discussing this with her will help corroborate his accounts of why they are having issues moving this divorce forward and you can talk with her to find out what is needed to get this situation moving along.
> 
> Have you had this discussion with her yet to get better insight into what the hang ups are on their end?


It's not for a gf of a married guy to have a 'sit down' with the wife. Is this guy seriously incapable of filing for divorce? He needs his gf to fight his battles?

Ugh, that would be another reason to dump him.


----------



## *Deidre*

I'm starting to think that this is how this guy was as a husband...never making decisions, and who knows if he cheated, honestly. I don't believe that his wife is a crazy loon desperately trying to hang onto her husband, and he is trying to shake free because he's such an amazing man and wants out. There are cases like that, where a spouse is obsessed and won't let go, but it doesn't sound like that, in this instance.

Sounds like he has leading the wife on AND leads the gf to think he's divorcing. It would be interesting to have this guy followed to see what really goes on when you're not around, OP.


----------



## oldshirt

*Deidre* said:


> I'm starting to think that this is how this guy was as a husband...never making decisions, and who knows if he cheated, honestly. I don't believe that his wife is a crazy loon desperately trying to hang onto her husband, and he is trying to shake free because he's such an amazing man and wants out. There are cases like that, where a spouse is obsessed and won't let go, but it doesn't sound like that, in this instance.
> 
> Sounds like he has leading the wife on AND leads the gf to think he's divorcing. It would be interesting to have this guy followed to see what really goes on when you're not around, OP.


A little chat with his wife will be a lot quicker, cheaper and easier way to find out where things stand.

Lynn has maintained that their relationship is legitimate and that his and the wife's separation is bona fide and and that divorce is their intent.

If all of those things are correct, then it simply makes sense for them to discuss the blending of families and establish how the parameters of all of their relationships should play out going forward.

New partners meet with ex partners all the time to discuss and establish blended family dynamics going forward all the time and it is a beneficial practice. 

If all of this is as being described and eberything is legit and above-board, then there should be no issues and it should be a beneficial meeting for all involved.

Buuuuuuuut, if for some reason things aren't really as they are being described here..... Well let's just say that will be a very interesting meeting and there is a good chance that both Lynn and the wife will find out a thing or two about Mr Wonderful that neither were quite fully informed about.


----------



## oldshirt

See here's the thing, assuming Lynn isn't simply lying her butt off and trying to pull the wool over our eyes, she believes that their relationship is legit and has a future and that he and his wife have officially separated with the intent of divorce, with him riding off into the sunset to live happily ever after with Lynn once the divorce is final.

Currently she is seeing the hang up in the divorce process is that it is the WIFE that is dragging her feet and is holding up the process with all of this minutiae.

Yes she's getting frustrated with him but is still buying his tales that he was going to get a divorce on Tuesday but the 'check engine' light came on in his car on the way to the lawyer's office and them when he rescheduled it for Friday the lawyer's secretary's son was sick and couldn't balance his schedule that day and any time he tries get his wife to help push the divorce through, she has a hair appointment or has to take the cat to the vet etc.

Thus far Lynn has been buying this. 

So assuming the divorce and her and his relationship are legit and bona fide, then it is on everyone's interest to come together and work out the details and parameters of blending the families and kids and everyone working together to meet the ends of securing the divorce and moving forward with all of their lives. 

It's a real thing that actual divorcees and blended families do and it is an important part of that process.

However, if things aren't as Lynn is assuming, this will bring out the reality real fast and open her eyes to many things she was not fully aware of real quick.


----------



## oldshirt

So bottom line, whether this is all legit and above-board, or whether she is being taken for a ride; it is in her best interests to get with the wife and have a little pow wow on life moving forward for everyone involved.


----------



## samyeagar

oldshirt said:


> @lynn11374
> 
> You haven't answered my question; have you met with and had a discussion with his wife about any of this?
> 
> If this is all above-board and it is a legitimate separation between them and a legitimate LTR with you and him, then there should be no issues with you sitting down and having an open, adult discussion on how all of you are going to move forward and blend families and work together towards this divorce and your future relationships moving forward.
> 
> Sitting down and discussing this with her will help corroborate his accounts of why they are having issues moving this divorce forward and you can talk with her to find out what is needed to get this situation moving along.
> 
> Have you had this discussion with her yet to get better insight into what the hang ups are on their end?


Hell, I think it would be a great idea for Lynn to just suggest meeting the wife...the boyfriends reaction would be very instructive...


----------



## Zanne

@oldshirt, I don't think there are children in this situation, just cats. I do agree with much of your advice though. The only thing is, it sounds like the boyfriend avoids anything that is emotionally difficult. IMO, that is a red flag and something that I am observing in my own situation. I hope there are other qualities about this guy. I do know that it isn't easy to just walk away from someone you care about. I think Lynn is seeing things differently now and hopefully will guard herself going forward. She mentioned that she didn't divorce right away either and I know that I took forever to get my divorce going. It's not difficult, but the emotional aspect of it can be terrifying. I don't think it's fair to judge people for following their own timeline. At the same time, you don't have to be a part of it either. Also, there is the very real possibility that she is getting played. As always, I wish Lynn the best!


----------



## oldshirt

samyeagar said:


> Hell, I think it would be a great idea for Lynn to just suggest meeting the wife...the boyfriends reaction would be very instructive...


The problem iwith that is she believes everything he tells her. 

All he would have to do is say that that was a great idea and he would schedule the meeting for Thursday night. But then when Thurs morning comes around, he will say the wife has a friend coming in to town and can't make it.


----------



## oldshirt

Zanne said:


> @oldshirt, I don't think there are children in this situation, just cats. I do agree with much of your advice though. The only thing is, it sounds like the boyfriend avoids anything that is emotionally difficult. IMO, that is a red flag and something that I am observing in my own situation. I hope there are other qualities about this guy. I do know that it isn't easy to just walk away from someone you care about. I think Lynn is seeing things differently now and hopefully will guard herself going forward. She mentioned that she didn't divorce right away either and I know that I took forever to get my divorce going. It's not difficult, but the emotional aspect of it can be terrifying. I don't think it's fair to judge people for following their own timeline. At the same time, you don't have to be a part of it either. Also, there is the very real possibility that she is getting played. As always, I wish Lynn the best!


Your point on everyone having their own timeline is valid.

However he is not giving her a timeline.

He is saying he'll get the divorce on Tuesday and then when Tuesday rolls around he tells her his wife found a funny looking mole on her arm and has to schedule a doctors appointment to check it out.

Nothing he is saying adds up. He says he'll divorce, and then he makes an excuse that his wife has something come up...... Which is in and of itself is not relevant because he does not need his wife to cooperate to get the divorce.

He is not saying he needs a timeline. He is saying he will do it and then he blames it on his wife for moving the goal posts.


----------



## *Deidre*

oldshirt said:


> A little chat with his wife will be a lot quicker, cheaper and easier way to find out where things stand.
> 
> Lynn has maintained that their relationship is legitimate and that his and the wife's separation is bona fide and and that divorce is their intent.
> 
> If all of those things are correct, then it simply makes sense for them to discuss the blending of families and establish how the parameters of all of their relationships should play out going forward.
> 
> New partners meet with ex partners all the time to discuss and establish blended family dynamics going forward all the time and it is a beneficial practice.
> 
> If all of this is as being described and eberything is legit and above-board, then there should be no issues and it should be a beneficial meeting for all involved.
> 
> Buuuuuuuut, if for some reason things aren't really as they are being described here..... Well let's just say that will be a very interesting meeting and there is a good chance that both Lynn and the wife will find out a thing or two about Mr Wonderful that neither were quite fully informed about.


All of this would tell me that what I'm in is wrong for me, and I need to get out. It's the same with monitoring your partner's whereabouts because you have a feeling he/she is cheating. If you need to go that far, you probably are with the wrong person.


----------



## *Deidre*

samyeagar said:


> Hell, I think it would be a great idea for Lynn to just suggest meeting the wife...the boyfriends reaction would be very instructive...


LOL it would definitely tell a lot. 

But, Lynn said that she has seen texts back and forth between the wife and him, so sitting down with the wife sounds like Lynn is trying to mark her territory, it just sounds really inappropriate.

There comes a point when Lynn needs to preserve her dignity and walk away from this guy. I would bet a million bucks if I had a million bucks, that he goes back to his wife. (because he was always half way there to begin with)


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

If they have things they HAVE to settle before they start the divorce they can do so via text or email. Then it's written proof of the negotiations. Him talking to her does no good. Even if they agree to everything she can change her mind and all he has is "but she told me" 

Everything from now on should be via text or email. He needs to file on his own, just go to the court house and fill out paper, and any meetings should be done with a mediator. 

You're not too demanding for expecting this. He sounds like he could do with a little more demanding anyway. Tip toeing around him so he doesn't feel pressure or get angry has been pointless so far. 

Be ready to say THIS is what I require and if you are not prepared to do it then I am prepared to leave.


----------



## samyeagar

*Deidre* said:


> LOL it would definitely tell a lot.
> 
> But, Lynn said that she has seen texts back and forth between the wife and him, so sitting down with the wife sounds like Lynn is trying to mark her territory, *it just sounds really inappropriate*.
> 
> There comes a point when Lynn needs to preserve her dignity and walk away from this guy. I would bet a million bucks if I had a million bucks, that he goes back to his wife. (because he was always half way there to begin with)


Oh, that bird flew the coop a long time ago. Absolutely nothing about this even approaches being appropriate, so what the hell difference would one more thing matter. And really, isn't the puppyboyfriendhusband leading Lynn to believe it is her territory anyway? So why not mark it...


----------



## *Deidre*

I don't think anyone should be demanding anything from him. He has to want to divorce his wife ON HIS OWN. If he doesn't, then that should tell Lynn what to do next with HER OWN LIFE. You can't control another person's life. If he doesn't want to follow through, she should leave him. Not demand to see texts, and sit down with the wife, what?? lol She should leave him. This is who he is, at the least, he is an indecisive weak guy at the worst he is flat out lying to everyone. Either way, it's not a healthy place to be, and this is why I've read that people should take at least a year before dating others seriously, after a divorce.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

samyeagar said:


>


This is the most disturbing thing I've seen in a while, and that's hard to do. :|


----------



## *Deidre*

samyeagar said:


> Oh, that bird flew the coop a long time ago. Absolutely nothing about this even approaches being appropriate, so what the hell difference would one more thing matter. And really, isn't the puppyboyfriendhusband leading Lynn to believe it is her territory anyway? So why not mark it...


lol :grin2:

Sounds like the wife is doing that.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

*Deidre* said:


> I don't think anyone should be demanding anything from him. He has to want to divorce his wife ON HIS OWN. If he doesn't, then that should tell Lynn what to do next with HER OWN LIFE. You can't control another person's life. If he doesn't want to follow through, she should leave him. Not demand to see texts, and sit down with the wife, what?? lol She should leave him. This is who he is, at the least, he is an indecisive weak guy at the worst he is flat out lying to everyone. Either way, it's not a healthy place to be, and this is why I've read that people should take at least a year before dating others seriously, after a divorce.


^ This I agree with. I feel like OP is waiting for the divorce for him to change but he won't. He'll still go over there to feed the cat married or not. He'll still put her feelings first and everyone else's feelings first because he wants people to think he's a good guy and hates confrontation (but these guys are always ok with their wives/girlfriends upset with them but not anyone else... it's weird) He'll still be a weak and wishy washy guy who is scared to let go of his wife completely because he needs a back up plan if you don't work out. 

If OP left now, I am almost certain he would go back with his wife. These guys can't be alone, which means they don't want YOU they just needed someone.


----------



## lynn11374

I don't have any reason to doubt the specifics of what he tells me (intent is a different story of course). I have full access to his facebook, email and cell phone. He doesn't know I know his phone passcode (i've watched him enter it out of of the corner of my eye) but i check it when he's in the shower. I've seen the texts where he is asking her to meet and her agreeing and then saying something came up. 

The reason it's being held up is not because she is dragging her feet, because as @oldshirt says, he does not need the wife's cooperation but he really really wants her cooperation and he's holding out for it.

@Zanne, it is correct that I stalled getting my own divorce started and just pulled away from him for 2 years. until H at the time got involved in an EA and suddenly had enough and moved out, got in my face and screamed at me until I agreed to get in the car to go see the mediator and then literally threw the papers in my face to fill out and file. And you know what? he was a d!ck through the whole process who would have gladly left me in the street to rot. His own family supported me and wanted to take me in because of how he completely cut me off. I wouldn't want to be with a man who treated his STBX like that so I do have some appreciation for being considerate of the wife. But it's gone on for too long.


----------



## *Deidre*

Checking his phone when he's in the shower should tell you that you don't really trust him. All I can say is you're thinking of building a life with someone you really don't trust, and it sounds like for good reason. He isn't divorcing her for a reason, not for the reason if he gives you. He wants her to be skipping down to the courthouse joyfully with pen in hand ready to sign the papers, before he divorces her? lol 

He might not want to seem like a bad guy, and that would make me wonder too, was his marriage all that bad, and he just wanted a taste of the single life, and that is why he feels guilty. It just seems weird, to me.


----------



## *Deidre*

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> ^ This I agree with. I feel like OP is waiting for the divorce for him to change but he won't. He'll still go over there to feed the cat married or not. He'll still put her feelings first and everyone else's feelings first because he wants people to think he's a good guy and hates confrontation (but these guys are always ok with their wives/girlfriends upset with them but not anyone else... it's weird) He'll still be a weak and wishy washy guy who is scared to let go of his wife completely because he needs a back up plan if you don't work out.
> 
> If OP left now, I am almost certain he would go back with his wife. These guys can't be alone, which means they don't want YOU they just needed someone.


----------



## ILoveSparkles

*Deidre* said:


> It's not for a gf of a married guy to have a 'sit down' with the wife. Is this guy seriously incapable of filing for divorce? He needs his gf to fight his battles?
> 
> Ugh, that would be another reason to dump him.


100% agree with this. The marriage is between the BF and his wife only. The OP should not be involved in any way except for what he shares with her.

OP - This guy does not want to divorce!! You're grasping at straws here, IMO.


----------



## Zanne

lynn11374 said:


> I don't have any reason to doubt the specifics of what he tells me (intent is a different story of course). I have full access to his facebook, email and cell phone. He doesn't know I know his phone passcode (i've watched him enter it out of of the corner of my eye) but i check it when he's in the shower. I've seen the texts where he is asking her to meet and her agreeing and then saying something came up.
> 
> The reason it's being held up is not because she is dragging her feet, because as @oldshirt says, he does not need the wife's cooperation but he really really wants her cooperation and he's holding out for it.
> 
> @Zanne, it is correct that I stalled getting my own divorce started and just pulled away from him for 2 years. until H at the time got involved in an EA and suddenly had enough and moved out, got in my face and screamed at me until I agreed to get in the car to go see the mediator and then literally threw the papers in my face to fill out and file. And you know what? he was a d!ck through the whole process who would have gladly left me in the street to rot. His own family supported me and wanted to take me in because of how he completely cut me off. I wouldn't want to be with a man who treated his STBX like that so I do have some appreciation for being considerate of the wife. But it's gone on for too long.


I think a big part of this situation is that you are both too nice, i.e., People Pleasers. Google it sometime. Being a people pleaser is not necessarily a good thing.

I'm working on this issue myself. Standing up for myself is a tricky thing for me. I'm working on it, but I still stumble in this area. I love to serve others and I'm really good at it too, so I go out of my way to make people happy and comfortable and my goal is to keep the peace. But then, when I'm not getting my needs met, my feelings get hurt and I stew about it for awhile until eventually I explode and then ultimatums are thrown around and I get what I want and retreat, calm down, turn nice again, rinse and repeat. In the case of my marriage, I start putting up walls and grew hard-hearted. It's not healthy behavior. I just have a really hard time speaking up for myself from the get go. You seem similar.

I think you did an awesome job of communicating your needs without it sounding like an ultimatum. Like @turnera said, see how that got you some respect? I don't blame you for giving him extra chances. Some of us do not like change and we move at a glacial pace. I'm like that, my kids are like that, and so is my boyfriend. That's why I gave careful thought to my timeline so that I knew it was in MY best interest. I hope you will keep this in mind. You deserve to be in a healthy relationship and hopefully your boyfriend values that too. If you end up making it through this crisis together, consider couples counseling before you head into a serious commitment, like buying a home or marriage.


----------



## oldshirt

lynn11374 said:


> The reason it's being held up is not because she is dragging her feet, because as @oldshirt says, he does not need the wife's cooperation but he really really wants her cooperation and he's holding out for it.
> 
> .


I am willing to bet the farm that his wife did not want him getting with other chicks but that didn't seem to slow him down any doing that now did it.

He seems perfectly ready, willing and able to disregard her and do what he wants when he wants to.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Interesting how this is playing out. So, you stalled while living with your husband or the current boyfriend?


----------



## Adelais

oldshirt said:


> @lynn11374
> 
> You haven't answered my question; have you met with and had a discussion with his wife about any of this?
> 
> If this is all above-board and it is a legitimate separation between them and a legitimate LTR with you and him, then there should be no issues with you sitting down and having an open, adult discussion on how all of you are going to move forward and blend families and work together towards this divorce and your future relationships moving forward.
> 
> Sitting down and discussing this with her will help corroborate his accounts of why they are having issues moving this divorce forward and you can talk with her to find out what is needed to get this situation moving along.
> 
> Have you had this discussion with her yet to get better insight into what the hang ups are on their end?


Noooooo. There is no reason for Lynn to speak with the wife.

The wife will have no desire to speak with Lynn. That would only be rubbing salt in the wound.

Lynn, leave the wife alone. Let your boyfriend deal with her.

Boyfriend needs to do his job, and Lynn needs to do hers. Lynn's speaking with wife has nothing to do with anything, and is only a distraction.


----------



## Adelais

Quality said:


> Yeah, I surely reported you two or so years before arriving here.
> 
> Maybe it WAS Deejo that actually banned you. I have no idea. All I know is what I read last night on the old lurking waywards thread and on your unraveling thread.
> 
> Here's what Sidney posted about it {whether Sidney was a mod at the time or not, I don't know}:
> 
> 
> 
> I saw you mention you met your Married Man here on TAM and conducted your affair using private messaging and on the lurking thread, it was said you had had other supposedly inappropriate private message relationships on TAM {or elsewhere} as well. I sure hope for your married man's sake they disabled that feature for you when you were reinstated.
> 
> Yes, "people" are certainly flawed and I, too, have hope for redemption, grace and forgiveness for everyone. I gave such to my wife two decades ago. But you and I both know that's only possible AFTER repentance. Further, to present such kind seeming words while implying I'm the mean bully here while you continue the destruction of your own marriage {after reading through those old threads I can't believe you JUST now, 3 years later, filed for divorce from that supposedly awful stbxh of yours}, abandonment of your 5 children {probably better for them emotionally to just see you as vacation mom now anyway} and home wrecking your married man's family, is absolutely ridiculous nonsense. Decent, kind, loving people don't refer to affair marriages as "love stories". They don't sit by on a marriage death watch researching and strategizing divorce laws so as to extract the most favorable and TIMELY settlements for their married man from the target of their emotional abuse, those wicked betrayed wives {who are just the "shaky ground" footnotes of YOUR love story}.
> 
> OP, I KNOW we likely sound so mean to you but I hope you come back after you inevitable extract yourself from this destructive relationship and realize the kindness being extended to you, despite your wicked home wrecking behavior, by so many betrayed spouses trying to help you see how desperate and hopeless this affair relationship with someone else's husband really is. You're right, don't tell your married man what to do about his marriage ~ it's none of your business ~ never was ~ just leave ~ just end it ~ just move on and commit yourself to "no contact for life". Once it's all over, you'll be shocked at how much clarity was expressed to you here the last few days and it'll be mindboggling to you how your brain just couldn't fathom connecting those same easy to see dots. You want better ~ do better.


Zanne needs to start her own thread so Lynn's thread is not threadjacked.


----------



## Openminded

Zanne had a very long, very detailed thread that covered years IIRC. She deleted it (or had a mod delete it). I doubt she wants to put all that information back out there -- especially since she knows she attracts hostility from many for her past and present actions.


----------



## Quality

Zanne said:


> I think a big part of this situation is that you are both too nice, i.e., People Pleasers. Google it sometime. Being a people pleaser is not necessarily a good thing.
> 
> I'm working on this issue myself. Standing up for myself is a tricky thing for me. I'm working on it, but I still stumble in this area. I love to serve others and I'm really good at it too, so I go out of my way to make people happy and comfortable and my goal is to keep the peace. But then, when I'm not getting my needs met, my feelings get hurt and I stew about it for awhile until eventually I explode and then ultimatums are thrown around and I get what I want and retreat, calm down, turn nice again, rinse and repeat.


You guys are "too nice" ~ THAT's definitely the problem here.

"Nice" like a female black widow enticing a mate.

Or "nice" like the mistresses of the old married men down in Naples, Florida who "help" their married men give and plan medical care for their mildly to severely ill wives, while praying to God they out live them and get the chance to cash in {they usually get dumped too ~ they were just convenient because they were willing to provide sex to a still married man}. 

You, two, seem both on a "death watch". Death of a marriage by divorce. 

"Pushing" your married men with deadlines, researching divorce laws, discussing the details of his thoughts and concerns about a still yet POTENTIAL divorce and such is actively assisting the death of the marriage. 

If October is YOUR deadline. {You are free to have boundaries but, come on, you're both too nice for REAL boundaries}. Then so be it. Just leave. Break off the illicit relationships and just leave. Every relationship that ends typically has that last straw and if you set Oct 1 as that straw, or him lying to you as that straw, or him making love to his supposedly soon to be ex wife as that last straw than you just end it right there without fanfare. 

But don't use your "supposed" boundary as a way to manipulate and control a situation that is none of your business and get him to do what you want. See being actually "nice" requires you to be nice all the time and especially when not getting your needs met just as you want, or your feelings get hurt and you stew about it for awhile until eventually explode and then ultimatums are thrown around and YOU GET WHAT YOU WANT and retreat, calm down, turn nice again, rinse and repeat. 

He took a vow to his wife, not you. She is entitled to a divorce without a third party in the picture or otherwise involved in any manner. Sure, "lots of people" date while divorcing but this guy hasn't even filed yet; and, just because "lots" of people do it doesn't make it healthy or wise. The worst case scenario for the OP in this situation {and really Zanne} is if they actually get what they want and end up with these jackholerons. 

To do otherwise makes you as "nice" as a widower death watch mistress trying to figure out what her married man's wife's illnesses life expectancy is, or even worse, helping to arrange/plan her funeral {before and/or after she dies}.


----------



## lynn11374

We had another talk. He says him being married doesn't affect our relationship in any way and doesn't understand why it's such a rush. I told him it's not healthy and he said he feels we have a perfectly healthy relationship until I try to protect myself rather than being supportive of the fact he's now trying to make steps to move it forward. Kept reminding me that I was married to when we met. It's another conversation that went around in circles.

It is true that our relationship is great otherwise and I fee like I'm throwing it away all because of a piece of paper. I don't know, I feel like I can't think rationally any more. Anyway, still sticking to oct 1 deadline.


----------



## lynn11374

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Interesting how this is playing out. So, you stalled while living with your husband or the current boyfriend?


It was while I was living with my husband that I stalled.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

lynn11374 said:


> I’ve set my dealdline of Oct 1. The lease is up November so this gives me time to find an apartment if needed.


You JUST had a 'deadline' of Labor Day not even a *week* ago.

_*Now*_ it's October 1st?

Keep moving that line in the sand. Every time you do, it just makes you look more desperate.



> It is true that our relationship is great otherwise and I fee like I'm throwing it away all because of a piece of paper.


You're right. It's 'just' a piece of paper. 

So why is your so-called boyfriend making such a BIG DAMNED DEAL about getting this so _unimportant_ little scrap of paper? Why all the drama about apparently nuthin'?

Just a fun note - you started this particular thread on July 11th. It's now August 20th.

Let's review how much progress you've *made* in those 5 weeks.

Oh...wait....


----------



## zoemariewoodside

Could you do it through a marriage counselling.They act as a mediator and would help sort out the who's and what and support the ex wife. They don't just try to fix relationships!!


----------



## oldshirt

lynn11374 said:


> We had another talk. He says him being married doesn't affect our relationship in any way and doesn't understand why it's such a rush. I told him it's not healthy and he said he feels we have a perfectly healthy relationship until I try to protect myself rather than being supportive of the fact he's now trying to make steps to move it forward. Kept reminding me that I was married to when we met. It's another conversation that went around in circles.
> 
> It is true that our relationship is great otherwise and I fee like I'm throwing it away all because of a piece of paper. I don't know, I feel like I can't think rationally any more. Anyway, still sticking to oct 1 deadline.


The relationship IS perfect him.......... as long as you look cute, keep his bed warm, have sex and don't ask anything else of him, make any waves or want anything for yourself.


----------



## Livvie

lynn11374 said:


> We had another talk. He says him being married doesn't affect our relationship in any way and doesn't understand why it's such a rush. I told him it's not healthy and he said he feels we have a perfectly healthy relationship until I try to protect myself rather than being supportive of the fact he's now trying to make steps to move it forward. Kept reminding me that I was married to when we met. It's another conversation that went around in circles.
> 
> It is true that our relationship is great otherwise and I fee like I'm throwing it away all because of a piece of paper. I don't know, I feel like I can't think rationally any more. Anyway, still sticking to oct 1 deadline.


He actually said that still being married (really, still not even begin divorce process by filing) doesn't affect your relationship in any way?? He hasn't ended his relationship with his wife, he is legally married, in affects your relationship in EVERY way. 

I know you are having a hard time with this. I want you to know that there are not many women who would stay in a long term relationship with someone who hasn't wrapped up his previous MARRIAGE. To most, this would be completely unacceptable. 

There is not one reason that exists for not getting it done.


----------



## lynn11374

oldshirt said:


> The relationship IS perfect him.......... as long as you look cute, keep his bed warm, have sex and don't ask anything else of him, make any waves or want anything for yourself.


Yes, and he's also giving me these things and taking care of all my daily needs so doesn't understand what I'm not getting.


----------



## Blondilocks

Good grief, I just can't stand it anymore. 

Fact: He has no business being in a relationship with anyone other than the one to whom he is legally married. Healthy, not healthy - who cares? It shouldn't even exist. Parlor games. Ya'll are just playing parlor games with another person's life.

It's ok if he protects himself but if you try to protect yourself, it's selfish? Phoooey! You get what you deserve.


----------



## samyeagar

lynn11374 said:


> Yes, and he's also giving me these things and taking care of all my daily needs so doesn't understand what I'm not getting.


Well, at least he knows what your price is...


----------



## lynn11374

Blondilocks said:


> Good grief, I just can't stand it anymore.
> 
> Fact: He has no business being in a relationship with anyone other than the one to whom he is legally married. Healthy, not healthy - who cares? It shouldn't even exist. Parlor games. Ya'll are just playing parlor games with another person's life.
> 
> It's ok if he protects himself but if you try to protect yourself, it's selfish? Phoooey! You get what you deserve.


I made those exact arguments. He said if he has no business being in a relationship with me then why am I in one with him? I said because I was expecting him to file. He said he is trying. And claims he's not protecting himself. BS.


----------



## oldshirt

lynn11374 said:


> Yes, and he's also giving me these things and taking care of all my daily needs so doesn't understand what I'm not getting.


I get where he is coming from. His wants and needs are having a side piece to have a warm body to cuddle up against at night and keep his tank drained while he tries to decide what to do about his marital situation and financial affairs. 

He is basically thinking those are your needs at the moment as well. 

He is treating you as he wants to be treated according to HIS needs. 

He has no inclination of meeting YOUR needs. That is the part you aren't getting.

He is not invested in you or your future together. He is simply meeting his needs for a bed-warmer while he leisurely disengages from his marriage. 

The other part you are not getting is he is not disengaging from his marriage for YOU or to be with you. He is doing it for himself and will likely start hooking up with and dating other women once he is single. 

You are the bed warmer and place holder while he feathers his own nest.


----------



## Malaise

His assets > you.


----------



## *Deidre*

I think that you know what to do, you just don't want to lose the fun and whatever else he brings into your life. It's understandable, but he sounds like someone who just wants all the women in his life to do what he wants. I think that's why he feels guilty because most likely, his marriage is worth saving. That's the thing you have to get real with, for yourself. His wife isn't giving up on the marriage, not because she's nuts, but because it might be worth saving, and now he has you...and it's clouded his own judgement. That's my latest thoughts to all of this. And that is why you are struggling at this point, too, because he doesn't exhibit towards his ex, the behaviors of a guy ready to file. 

He also shows you that he doesn't care what you think. AT ALL. He only cares about what he thinks, and how YOU should be perpetually supportive, no matter what is going on. He sounds like a straight up jerk, if you ask me. Good sex and some fun doesn't change that he is a married man who is dragging his feet to divorce his wife, and thus giving you and his wife mixed messages. He should end up all alone, lol you dump him and his wife wakes up and files herself. That would be the perfect ending to this sad story.

You and his wife deserve better, and you know what to do, I think. It's just hard to let him go, but I don't think you're getting a catch, to be honest. He sounds like an incredibly weak and manipulative guy, who shows his true colors when you push for answers. 

I hope you stay true to yourself.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Op I too was in a horrible relationship with my ex. At first I met men who were wildly incompatible and had things that would have been deal breakers down the line. I just was happy they were better than my ex. I ended up with one married. His "ex" was a crazy, controlling freak and I saw texts of her yelling at him and he just needed enough money to leave and couldn't rock the boat too much cause she was mentally ill and cut herself and he feared for the children. 
None of it was true btw, the texts were crazy because she was dealing with a jerk cheating man. 

After some failed attempts I thought about it and what I really wanted and F settling. I had 10 years of hell, I'm not having another crappy relationship. I became a b*tch and extremely picky and if they didn't meet what I needed I moved along to the next with no hesitation. 
My life was awesome single and he's going to have to be even more awesome to beat it (he is) 

If the divorce papers were signed but everything else was exactly as it is now, are you happy and is it compatible?


----------



## thefam

OP whatever you do please do not contact the wife. As long as he is married their relationship is none of your business. 

How do you feel about just going to friend status until his divorce is final? Would you have any problem with doing that? If he finds someone else then that would tell you a lot, right? I would truly be interested to know how you feel about doing that.


----------



## Dannip

You're his side piece. Accept it or move on. He's having his cake and eating it too. Don't spoil it with him. 

I'm sorry you're in this situation. You control far more of it than you know. Your happiness is never controlled or managed by him. Move on. 

He'll do the same with you. He's learned to really like side pieces. He'll tell the next younger hotter babe the same things he's telling you. It seems to work for god knows what reason.


----------



## aine

lynn11374 said:


> Yes, and he's also giving me these things and taking care of all my daily needs so doesn't understand what I'm not getting.


Quite frankly you are being led by the nose and so is his wife. He tells you one thing and tells her another, for all you know he sleeps with her too. You are being played. He gets the best of both worlds and feeds you a line about his wife, blah blah blah and you fall for it.


----------



## Dannip

aine said:


> Quite frankly you are being led by the nose and so is his wife. He tells you one thing and tells her another, for all you know he sleeps with her too. You are being played. He gets the best of both worlds and feeds you a line about his wife, blah blah blah and you fall for it.


I wonder if they all moved in together... one happy commune.


----------



## Zanne

Lynn, sometimes we get ourselves into situations that are not meant to be, but we keep trying anyway because it's hard to give up the good parts or maybe because of fear or pride. It's up to you to decide if or when it's time to move on. None of us are in your shoes. Even my own situation is different in some ways. The following quote was shared a few years ago. I thought you might like to read it:

"Hey you, Stop breaking your own heart by trying to make a relationship work that clearly isn’t meant to work. You can’t force someone to care about you. You can’t force someone to be loyal. You can’t force someone to be the person you need them to be. I’ll be real with you, sometimes the person you want most is the person you’re best without. You got to understand some things are meant to happen, but just not meant to be. Some things are meant to come in your life, just not meant to stay. Don’t lose yourself by trying to fix what's meant to stay broken. You can’t get the relationship you need from someone who’s not ready to give it you. And I know it’s hard when your heart has labeled that person as someone you could spend forever with, but you just have to accept that they’re not that person anymore. And you might not understand WHY NOW, but I promise you your future will always bring understanding of why things didn’t work out. TRUST ME. Don’t put your happiness on hold for someone who isn’t holding on to you. Some chapters just have to close without closure. Straight up. That broken thing you keep trying to put back together is keeping your life from that beautiful thing that’s waiting to be built. God loves you too much to answer a prayer that’s going to leave you hurt. You deserve better." (Credit: Trent Shelton)


----------



## Zanne

I meant to add, if the quote I shared earlier resonates with you, act accordingly. If you feel strongly about your relationship, you should keep the dialogue going with your boyfriend about the future and your expectations. Keep in mind that you have already discovered that he is looking at the situation differently. This is not necessarily a bad thing if he realizes you have concerns and he is willing to work with you so you guys come to a mutual understanding.


----------



## turnera

lynn11374 said:


> I made those exact arguments. He said if he has no business being in a relationship with me then why am I in one with him? I said because I was expecting him to file. He said he is trying. And claims he's not protecting himself. BS.


And yet...here you still are - meeting HIS needs while he doesn't meet your most important one.

Who has the control in this relationship?


----------



## MattMatt

Just a thought:- Was his apparent inability to make decisions and stick with them what damaged his marriage?


----------



## lynn11374

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Op I too was in a horrible relationship with my ex. At first I met men who were wildly incompatible and had things that would have been deal breakers down the line. I just was happy they were better than my ex. I ended up with one married. His "ex" was a crazy, controlling freak and I saw texts of her yelling at him and he just needed enough money to leave and couldn't rock the boat too much cause she was mentally ill and cut herself and he feared for the children.
> None of it was true btw, the texts were crazy because she was dealing with a jerk cheating man.
> 
> After some failed attempts I thought about it and what I really wanted and F settling. I had 10 years of hell, I'm not having another crappy relationship. I became a b*tch and extremely picky and if they didn't meet what I needed I moved along to the next with no hesitation.
> My life was awesome single and he's going to have to be even more awesome to beat it (he is)
> 
> If the divorce papers were signed but everything else was exactly as it is now, are you happy and is it compatible?


Thanks for sharing your situation. What makes this so hard is everything about our relationship is so great and we are very compatible otherwise. We share many of the same interests and worldviews. He doesn't have children yet was not a perpetual bachelor (a very rare find when you're dating middle-aged men). We are very sexually compatible, he is loving and affectionate - always holding my hand, rubbing my back, kissing my hand etc... He takes care of my dogs for me without me having to ask. He is intellectual and sophisticated. If any of these attributes was missing I would not be putting up with this.

Last night he arranged a belated birthday dinner for me at a Thai restaurant - with his mother and brothers. They all brought gifts for me. I wouldn't think a man who viewed as nothing but a side piece would be integrating me into his family and life like he is doing. 

That being said - I'm still sticking to Oct 1 deadline. He doesn't know about the deadline.


----------



## oldshirt

Let's take a giant step back and take a look at how men typically act when they are in love and believe they have found "The One."

If a man thinks he has found "The One" and wants to be with her, he will move mountains and endure great hardships and sacrifice to be with her.

A man will go against the wishes of his family and the advice of his friends. 

He will change his life outlooks and amend his goals to include hers. 

He will think of her and think of how to include her in all his future plans and willing always be thinking of her wants and needs and how to blend tem with his.

This is a dark side and will make people uncomfortable to read but if a married man sincerely believes that another woman is "The One," he WILL leave his home and his wife with the cold calculation and steady hand of a surgeon removing a tumor.

Most men will try to maintain some form or contact with their children, but they will sacrifice houses, money, furniture, home furnishes and will leave all the lots and pans various doo-dads and walk away with his golf clubs, car and the clothes in his back.

They will try to maintain some contact but many married men will also accept weekend and holiday visitation to be with the woman they love.

When a married man thinks the OW is "The One" he will focus all his energies and concentration on getting himself unyoked from his wife as quickly, cleanly and efficiently as possible and will not allow anything to stand in the way if that. All hurdles and challenges will be met and overcome as they occur. 

This is what men do when they are in love and believe in their hearts that this is their love and soulmate.

Is this how this guy is behaving?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

lynn11374 said:


> Thanks for sharing your situation. What makes this so hard is everything about our relationship is so great and we are very compatible otherwise. We share many of the same interests and worldviews. He doesn't have children yet was not a perpetual bachelor (a very rare find when you're dating middle-aged men). We are very sexually compatible, he is loving and affectionate - always holding my hand, rubbing my back, kissing my hand etc... He takes care of my dogs for me without me having to ask. He is intellectual and sophisticated. If any of these attributes was missing I would not be putting up with this.
> 
> Last night he arranged a belated birthday dinner for me at a Thai restaurant - with his mother and brothers. They all brought gifts for me. I wouldn't think a man who viewed as nothing but a side piece would be integrating me into his family and life like he is doing.
> 
> That being said - I'm still sticking to Oct 1 deadline. He doesn't know about the deadline.


To be honest the first thing I thought of when I read this is a comedy skit I saw about how some women have been neglected so much that a bit of basic decency and they are ecstatic. 

These things should all be normal, basic requirements.


----------



## oldshirt

lynn11374 said:


> Thanks for sharing your situation. What makes this so hard is everything about our relationship is so great and we are very compatible otherwise. We share many of the same interests and worldviews. He doesn't have children yet was not a perpetual bachelor (a very rare find when you're dating middle-aged men). We are very sexually compatible, he is loving and affectionate - always holding my hand, rubbing my back, kissing my hand etc... He takes care of my dogs for me without me having to ask. He is intellectual and sophisticated. If any of these attributes was missing I would not be putting up with this.
> 
> Last night he arranged a belated birthday dinner for me at a Thai restaurant - with his mother and brothers. They all brought gifts for me. I wouldn't think a man who viewed as nothing but a side piece would be integrating me into his family and life like he is doing.
> 
> That being said - I'm still sticking to Oct 1 deadline. He doesn't know about the deadline.



No one is saying that he doesn't like you or that he kicks puppies or steals old lady's purses.

We are saying he is not as invested in your relationship or viewing it's significance.

On a 1-10 scale, you are at an 8.5 and starting to think about your wedding colors and what your future children will look like.

He is at a 2-3 and appreciates that you are keeping him good company and gives good BJs to keep him from getting too lonely or too horny so he can methodically take his time and ease himself back into single life. 

No one is saying that he is a bad person or that he doesn't have a degree of appreciation and fondness of you.

You are just worlds away from each other on how invested you are in this relationship.


----------



## Malaise

It seems he's doing everything except what you want.


----------



## Adelais

If you are fighting about him divorcing his wife, you really have more problems than you realize. You did things out of order, and you are paying for it now.

Had you passed him up when you learned he had not filed for D, you might very well be in a relationship with a man who wants to be with you for the rest of his life.

You are not very different than these women:

My boyfriend won't get a divorce - LoveShack.org Community Forums

The lie that broke the camel's back - LoveShack.org Community Forums

Am I right to blame myself for this Affair ? - LoveShack.org Community Forums

Stop telling yourself that your situation is special. Get your self respect back, start taking care of yourself, and when he opens his mouth to say anything to you, know that all he says is filtered through his selfprotective, manipuative brain first. Don't listen to him, walk away.


----------



## Adelais

Here's another person "helplessly" in your (and @Zanne's) predicament and the advice they got:

Q&A - Help! My Boyfriend Won't Divorce His Wife for Me | Lifescript.com

I'm not trying to be mean to you. I know you met him when you had filed for D, and he had told you he was going to do the same. 

zyou should have told him to get in touch with you when his divorce was final. I hope others who read your story learn from it, should they ever find him/herself in a similar situation.


----------



## oldshirt

Another thing you don't realize is you are actually playing a significant role in his lolly gagging and lasidasical approach to divorcing.

Since he has you for comfort, companionship and sex, he really has no need to expedite his divorce. He is content having sex with you and taking his sweet time in dissolving his marriage.

I guarentee you, if there wasn't an accomidating chick keeping him warm and entertained at night, if his marriage was really that bad, he would be moving heaven and earth to get divorced and get single and back on the dating scene again.

You may think you are pushing him along but actually you are supporting and accomidating him taking his sweet time. 

If you cut off his gravy train, warm landing pad and sex, he will either decide his wife isn't that bad after all and go back to her, or he will push his divorce through like a freight train.


.......or find another accomidating chick....but like I said earlier, there are very few chicks that will accomidate a married man indefinately. He kind of has to settle for what he can get and then do his best to string her along.


----------



## *Deidre*

lynn11374 said:


> Thanks for sharing your situation. What makes this so hard is everything about our relationship is so great and we are very compatible otherwise. We share many of the same interests and worldviews. He doesn't have children yet was not a perpetual bachelor (a very rare find when you're dating middle-aged men). We are very sexually compatible, he is loving and affectionate - always holding my hand, rubbing my back, kissing my hand etc... He takes care of my dogs for me without me having to ask. He is intellectual and sophisticated. If any of these attributes was missing I would not be putting up with this.
> 
> Last night he arranged a belated birthday dinner for me at a Thai restaurant - with his mother and brothers. They all brought gifts for me. I wouldn't think a man who viewed as nothing but a side piece would be integrating me into his family and life like he is doing.
> 
> That being said - I'm still sticking to Oct 1 deadline. He doesn't know about the deadline.


He sounds great if he were single. But, he's not even filed for divorce. He's not even heading in that direction. He has been separated and dating you for a while, it's not like he just started seeing you a month ago. I just think you're in love with the wrong guy. It happens, it happens even when you meet a single guy. but, this is the wrong guy. You're comfortable with him now, and you've fallen in love with him, so he seems like the right guy, but you posted this thread for a reason. Because you know what you're feeling deep down inside is what you should really follow.

I just think that six more weeks of sex and love will only make it harder for you when the October 1st deadline comes and he's still nowhere near being 'ready' to file. 

It's your life, I think you know what to do. It's just hard to do it.


----------



## turnera

oldshirt said:


> Another thing you don't realize is you are actually playing a significant role in his lolly gagging and lasidasical approach to divorcing.
> 
> Since he has you for comfort, companionship and sex, he really has no need to exposure his divorce. He is content having sex with you and taking his sweet time in dissolving his marriage.
> 
> I guarentee you, if there wasn't an accomidating chick keeping him warm and entertained at night, if his marriage was really that bad, he would be moving heaven and earth to get divorced and get single and back on the dating scene again.
> 
> You may think you are pushing him along but actually you are supporting and accomidating him taking his sweet time.
> 
> If you cut off his gravy train, warm landing pad and sex, he will either decide his wife isn't that bad after all and go back to her, or he will push his divorce through like a freight train.
> 
> 
> .......or find another accomidating chick....but like I said earlier, there are very few chicks that will accomidate a married man indefinately. He kind of has to settle for what he can get and then do his best to string her along.


This.


----------



## lynn11374

oldshirt said:


> Another thing you don't realize is you are actually playing a significant role in his lolly gagging and lasidasical approach to divorcing.
> 
> Since he has you for comfort, companionship and sex, he really has no need to expedite his divorce. He is content having sex with you and taking his sweet time in dissolving his marriage.
> 
> I guarentee you, if there wasn't an accomidating chick keeping him warm and entertained at night, if his marriage was really that bad, he would be moving heaven and earth to get divorced and get single and back on the dating scene again.
> 
> You may think you are pushing him along but actually you are supporting and accomidating him taking his sweet time.
> 
> If you cut off his gravy train, warm landing pad and sex, he will either decide his wife isn't that bad after all and go back to her, or he will push his divorce through like a freight train.
> 
> 
> .......or find another accomidating chick....but like I said earlier, there are very few chicks that will accomidate a married man indefinately. He kind of has to settle for what he can get and then do his best to string her along.


I have to say I agree. Problem is, cutting things off means moving out. And if I moved out I would not get another apartment in this area (I relocated), I would move close to my family which means our relationship is over for good. So I either stick it out and support him, and believe him that even though the pace is slower than I want that it will happen, or end it altogether.


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## samyeagar

lynn11374 said:


> I have to say I agree. Problem is, cutting things off means moving out. And if I moved out I would not get another apartment in this area (I relocated), *I would move close to my family which means our relationship is over for good.* So I either stick it out and support him, and believe him that even though the pace is slower than I want that it will happen, or end it altogether.


This is very telling. Why would it be over?


----------



## oldshirt

lynn11374 said:


> I have to say I agree. Problem is, cutting things off means moving out. And if I moved out I would not get another apartment in this area (I relocated), I would move close to my family which means our relationship is over for good. So I either stick it out and support him, and believe him that even though the pace is slower than I want that it will happen, or end it altogether.


I agree with samyeager. The fact you sincerly the relationship will end if you aren't his bed warmer during the divorce pretty much says it all and pretty much confirms everything that we have been trying to tell you.

What you are calling "support" is actually enablement.

You are enabling him to have a warm and accomidating place to sleep and a warm vagina to keep his tank from getting too full so he can take his sweet time transitioning away from his marriage. 

The fact you believe that not providing that enablement would end the relationship proves that point. 

Your fog may be starting to slightly lift here after all.


----------



## lynn11374

samyeagar said:


> This is very telling. Why would it be over?


The distance would make it a lot more difficult to carry on a relationship.


----------



## turnera

lynn11374 said:


> I would move close to my family which means our relationship is over for good.


Well, then, he obviously doesn't really love you, then, does he? If you're not worth fighting for, if you're not worth moving for (how come YOU had to move?), then YOU ARE A CONVENIENCE.

Do you want to throw your life away to be somebody's convenience?

Keep to your deadline.


----------



## lynn11374

He needs to be close to his business so he can come and go throughout the day, and I didn't have anything I needed to be close to so that's why I'm the one who relocated. However if I'm going to be living somewhere on my own, I'm not going to live in this area.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

lynn11374 said:


> I have to say I agree. Problem is, cutting things off means moving out. And if I moved out I would not get another apartment in this area (I relocated), I would move close to my family which means our relationship is over for good. So I either stick it out and support him, and believe him that even though the pace is slower than I want that it will happen, or end it altogether.


Ah the black and white either or scenario. Well, what if you move and he knocks on your door a few months later with PROOF he is getting divorced? What if he takes you over to verify there is nothing going on before you leave? See, your problem is you do not want a confrontation, when there should have been one long ago. Unfortunately, all advice isn't good even if it sound helpful. Being confused and waiting is one thing, there is a huge difference in stringing someone along until you get what you want. Remember this when you start thinking about advice. In another posters story, you are the person being set up to fail with no real knowledge of the situation.


----------



## oldshirt

lynn11374 said:


> The distance would make it a lot more difficult to carry on a relationship.


Read what I wrote in post #350 again. A man that is in love and believes he is with the one, will move mountains and over come all hardships and challenges to be with her......including geographic distance.

It is perfectly normal, natural and even expected that a woman would want a man to not be married and still involved with his wife before she commits to him or becomes seriously involved with him. 

Expecting him to be single and available for life with her is the absolute, rock-bottom, baseline expectation of a relationship so you are not asking too much of him to be fully divorced from his current marriage before pursuing a relationship with you.

If you believe that the relationship will end if you are not living with and having sex with him during his marriage and divorce proceedings, then you have your answer and know where you stand.


----------



## Diana7

chillymorn69 said:


> I don't care what he says ...He don't want to lose his business or financial losses.


Move out and say that you will buy a home with him once he is divorced.Personally, I wouldn't date a man if he wasn't actually in the throes of a divorce or divorced. After all, you are living with a married man.

She will be upset whenever it happens, and because you are enabling him to do nothing, he will carry on doing nothing. 
Why did he leave her?


----------



## Diana7

lynn11374 said:


> The distance would make it a lot more difficult to carry on a relationship.


Then its clearly not that important to him if you believe it wouldn't last. Leave until he has started the divorce process and its well under way.


----------



## Diana7

lynn11374 said:


> I made those exact arguments. He said if he has no business being in a relationship with me then why am I in one with him? I said because I was expecting him to file. He said he is trying. And claims he's not protecting himself. BS.


No he isn't trying. He is doing nothing.


----------



## oldshirt

Diana7 said:


> Then its clearly not that important to him if you believe it wouldn't last. Leave until he has started the divorce process and its well under way.


He has already been stringing her along and telling her what she wants to hear while in reality not taking any actual actions to obtain a divorce.

He can file the paperwork and still string this out for years.

I would only advise her to not do anything untill she sees the final documentation with her own eyes.

For some people, it may be good enough to see that the divorce is moving forward in the court. But this is absolutely a "Show-Me-The-Money!" Situation and he is not to be believed until it is actually documented in the official court records.

His words mean nothing here.


----------



## Zanne

oldshirt said:


> Read what I wrote in post #350 again. A man that is in love and believes he is with the one, will move mountains and over come all hardships and challenges to be with her......including geographic distance


I disagree. Why is it all on the man to prove his love? It should be a mutual thing. It sounds like it was a mutual decision for them to move in together when they were separated from their respective spouses. It makes sense to live near his business. The fact is, she stalled on her divorce and he is still stalling on his. IMO, I think he is just avoiding the emotional conflict and financial fallout of the whole thing. She should tell him that she wants to buy a house and start a life together, but he needs to get divorced first and soon. Then set a reasonable period of time for him to get going and let him handle it.

OP stated in her first post, "He has integrated me into his life, family and friends." That doesn't sound like she is a bed warmer to me. She has also said that everything else about their life is great. *She specifically came here to ask how she might encourage him to move along with his divorce.* Now we have the TAM crowd trying to convince her that she is in an affair with a married man (she doesn't care and she stated that early on) and obviously YOU don't care since you just told another poster in her thread that her husband had the right to go outside their marriage and it wasn't considered cheating since that poster wasn't having sex with him.
@lynn11374, I don't think you should necessarily walk away from this relationship, unless his lack of progress in his divorce continues. This is perhaps your first real conflict in this relationship and how you both sort this out will help you in the future, in this relationship or the next.


----------



## oldshirt

Zanne said:


> I disagree. Why is it all on the man to prove his love? It should be a mutual thing. It sounds like it was a mutual decision for them to move in together when they were separated from their respective spouses. It makes sense to live near his business. The fact is, she stalled on her divorce and he is still stalling on his. IMO, I think he is just avoiding the emotional conflict and financial fallout of the whole thing. She should tell him that she wants to buy a house and start a life together, but he needs to get divorced first and soon. Then set a reasonable period of time for him to get going and let him handle it.
> 
> OP stated in her first post, "He has integrated me into his life, family and friends." That doesn't sound like she is a bed warmer to me. She has also said that everything else about their life is great. *She specifically came here to ask how she might encourage him to move along with his divorce.* Now we have the TAM crowd trying to convince her that she is in an affair with a married man (she doesn't care and she stated that early on) and obviously YOU don't care since you just told another poster in her thread that her husband had the right to go outside their marriage and it wasn't considered cheating since that poster wasn't having sex with him.
> 
> @lynn11374, I don't think you should necessarily walk away from this relationship, unless his lack of progress in his divorce continues. This is perhaps your first real conflict in this relationship and how you both sort this out will help you in the future, in this relationship or the next.


I have never said this was cheating.

They've been living together a year and a half so I assume the wife is aware of it and knows their marriage is pointless. 

She asked the people TAM how to encourage him to move forward with his divorce and most of us believe the best way to encourage him is for her to move on with her own life, move out, stop having sex with him, date single men and then if he turns back up on her doorstep as a divorced man and asks her out, she can do whatever she wants at that time.


----------



## oldshirt

.....and if he never shows up, then we all know where she stands.


----------



## samyeagar

oldshirt said:


> I have never said this was cheating.
> 
> They've been living together a year and a half so I assume the wife is aware of it and knows their marriage is pointless.
> 
> She asked the people TAM how to encourage him to move forward with his divorce and most of us believe the best way to encourage him is for her to move on with her own life, move out, stop having sex with him, date single men and then if he turns back up on her doorstep as a divorced man and asks her out, she can do whatever she wants at that time.


That's just it isn't it? She's used just about as many words as he has, and there hasn't been any movement in the past year and a half. Nothing has materially changed. The only way forward is for one of them to actually DO something rather than just throw words at it and he is pretty incapable of actually doing anything. Hopefully the OP doesn't really want a man who actually does things.


----------



## Zanne

oldshirt said:


> I have never said this was cheating.
> 
> They've been living together a year and a half so I assume the wife is aware of it and knows their marriage is pointless.
> 
> She asked the people TAM how to encourage him to move forward with his divorce and most of us believe the best way to encourage him is for her to move on with her own life, move out, stop having sex with him, date single men and then if he turns back up on her doorstep as a divorced man and asks her out, she can do whatever she wants at that time.


I know your stance on cheating, as I referenced in another thread. I just find it interesting that you are telling Lynn that in her situation she is nothing but a bed warmer and an accommodating warm vagina to keep his tank from getting too full and yet in another thread, you support the husband in seeking out such a situation.

I guess, only Lynn can make that call. I don't think she feels like a bed warmer. People can change, but sometimes they need a wake up call. For the record, I'm not entirely against your advice for Lynn to be prepared to move on. I just think she can do it in a mature and respectful way, instead of highlighting his flaws and issuing ultimatums. I'm all for a balanced view.


----------



## Blondilocks

The timeline is a little confusing. Depending on the post, they moved in together either September 2016 or November 2016. Until then, ap was living with his wife and dating op. If he was 'separated', it was only in his head. IIRC.


----------



## oldshirt

Zanne said:


> I know your stance on cheating, as I referenced in another thread. I just find it interesting that you are telling Lynn that in her situation she is nothing but a bed warmer and an accommodating warm vagina to keep his tank from getting too full and yet in another thread, you support the husband in seeking out such a situation.
> 
> I guess, only Lynn can make that call. I don't think she feels like a bed warmer. People can change, but sometimes they need a wake up call. For the record, I'm not entirely against your advice for Lynn to be prepared to move on. I just think she can do it in a mature and respectful way, instead of highlighting his flaws and issuing ultimatums. I'm all for a balanced view.


It's ok to disagree with my recommendations but do not say that I am saying things I did not say.

I do not support or encourage cheating. In the other thread I stated that obtaining sex elsewhere was one of the predictable outcomes of intentionally denying one's partner. Objectively recognizing a reality is not the same as supporting it or condoning it.

Additionally I have not once in this thread told Lynn to be pointing out his flaws or to issue any ultimatums.

I have suggested to her that if she wants to be with a single/divorced man that is free and clear of his wife and marriage, that she should move out, start dating men who are actually single/divorced.

And then if the day comes that he shows up with his final divorce decree in hand and asks her out, she can determine at that time if she wants to try to resume seeing him or not.

Don't put other words in my mouth.


----------



## Zanne

oldshirt said:


> Objectively recognizing a reality is not the same as supporting it or condoning it.


I agree. Too bad we're in the minority here.



oldshirt said:


> Additionally I have not once in this thread told Lynn to be pointing out his flaws or to issue any ultimatums.


Sometimes I am stating my opinion as an afterthought in the same post as my reply to you. My apologies.

"I" think there are few relationship situations where an ultimatum should be used and you should be prepared that it won't end the way you want. It seems to me that this is what the majority of the people here want Lynn to do - like tomorrow. I'm saying, give him a chance.


----------



## oldshirt

Zanne said:


> I agree. Too bad we're in the minority here.
> 
> Sometimes I am stating my opinion as an afterthought in the same post as my reply to you. My apologies.
> 
> "I" think there are few relationship situations where an ultimatum should be used and you should be prepared that it won't end the way you want. It seems to me that this is what the majority of the people here want Lynn to do - like tomorrow. I'm saying, give him a chance.


It's one thing to state upfront what your boundaries and deal breakers are and to inform someone of what will occur if they are broken. That is just informing someone of the ramifications of their actions so that they can make an informed decision.

Giving an ultimatum to get someone to do what you want is simply manipulation and duress. 

He has had a year and a half of chances to make any type of forward progress on a divorce. How many more chances should she give??


----------



## turnera

Telling someone you're tired of waiting for them to do what they promised so you're leaving is not an ultimatum. It's information about what YOU are going to do.


----------



## *Deidre*

I wouldn't give him an ultimatum, I don't believe in those, anyways. I'd just end it. lol This guy is not telling the truth, to what extent, we don't know, but we all sense it, and you even sense it Lynn, thus the reason you posted this thread.

I hope you find the right way, and don't lose anymore of your own identity and values in this.


----------



## lynn11374

I've spoke to quite a few divorced men over the past few weeks - friends, coworkers etc. In EVERY case, it's the wife who did the actual filing, even when it was the husband who wanted the divorce. This was even true in my situation. What I can tell is my bf wants the wife to take an active part in the process rather than it being a unilateral action on his part. It makes him feel better that she comes to terms with the fact that the marriage was not a fit and it's in both of their best interests to file. 
I know this seems like a fantasy, but so many things men do will never make sense to me. This is the way that he wants to do it and whenever he shares news of his attempts to put that plan in motion, I am attacking him and he feels like he doesn't have a partner in me to support him through this. I had the benefit of a spouse who wanted to move things along at a quick pace where he does not. So if I moved out, it's very possible he might feel compelled to force himself to file to save our relationship. But I don't want him to do something in a manner that doesn't feel right to him and then possibly resent me for it down the line. That doesn't mean I am going to keep waiting. A @deidre says I will not let this affect my identify or values, and I need to set boundaries for myself like many of you had advised. I seem to need reminding of that and TAM is certainly the place to get that reminder 

This is really difficult for him and I get the sense that men have an even more difficult time having the emotional tools to execute this kind of thing. My bf is a very sensitive, compassionate type of person and his emotions do tend to overshadow his ability to reason. He is not the alpha male bull-in-a-china-shop kinda guy. It's one of the things I love about him but it also frustrates me!


----------



## samyeagar

lynn11374 said:


> I've spoke to quite a few divorced men over the past few weeks - friends, coworkers etc. In EVERY case, it's the wife who did the actual filing, even when it was the husband who wanted the divorce. This was even true in my situation. What I can tell is my bf wants the wife to take an active part in the process rather than it being a unilateral action on his part. It makes him feel better that she comes to terms with the fact that the marriage was not a fit and it's in both of their best interests to file.
> I know this seems like a fantasy, but so many things men do will never make sense to me. This is the way that he wants to do it and whenever he shares news of his attempts to put that plan in motion, I am attacking him and he feels like he doesn't have a partner in me to support him through this. I had the benefit of a spouse who wanted to move things along at a quick pace where he does not. So if I moved out, it's very possible he might feel compelled to force himself to file to save our relationship. But I don't want him to do something in a manner that doesn't feel right to him and then possibly resent me for it down the line. That doesn't mean I am going to keep waiting. A @deidre says I will not let this affect my identify or values, and I need to set boundaries for myself like many of you had advised. I seem to need reminding of that and TAM is certainly the place to get that reminder
> 
> This is really difficult for him and I get the sense that men have an even more difficult time having the emotional tools to execute this kind of thing. My bf is a very sensitive, compassionate type of person and his emotions do tend to overshadow his ability to reason. He is not the alpha male bull-in-a-china-shop kinda guy. It's one of the things I love about him but it also frustrates me!


Well, you can now say you have met a man who wanted a divorce, and was the one who filed for it. I honestly didn't care if it was joint or unilateral. That was up to her. The divorce was happening, and she's a big girl, she could chose for herself to be on board, or not.

I am also a sensitive and compassionate man, but I have the expectation that adults will act like adults, and are responsible for their own decisions. I was not a jerk, didn't act out, was completely respectful and fair, but I also stood up for myself. We were divorcing, and her emotional well being was no longer my responsibility.


----------



## Livvie

lynn11374 said:


> I've spoke to quite a few divorced men over the past few weeks - friends, coworkers etc. In EVERY case, it's the wife who did the actual filing, even when it was the husband who wanted the divorce. This was even true in my situation. What I can tell is my bf wants the wife to take an active part in the process rather than it being a unilateral action on his part. It makes him feel better that she comes to terms with the fact that the marriage was not a fit and it's in both of their best interests to file.
> I know this seems like a fantasy, but so many things men do will never make sense to me. This is the way that he wants to do it and whenever he shares news of his attempts to put that plan in motion, I am attacking him and he feels like he doesn't have a partner in me to support him through this. I had the benefit of a spouse who wanted to move things along at a quick pace where he does not. So if I moved out, it's very possible he might feel compelled to force himself to file to save our relationship. But I don't want him to do something in a manner that doesn't feel right to him and then possibly resent me for it down the line. That doesn't mean I am going to keep waiting. A @deidre says I will not let this affect my identify or values, and I need to set boundaries for myself like many of you had advised. I seem to need reminding of that and TAM is certainly the place to get that reminder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is really difficult for him and I get the sense that men have an even more difficult time having the emotional tools to execute this kind of thing. My bf is a very sensitive, compassionate type of person and his emotions do tend to overshadow his ability to reason. He is not the alpha male bull-in-a-china-shop kinda guy. It's one of the things I love about him but it also frustrates me!


I guess you will spin it however you have to to make it sound okay.


----------



## samyeagar

lynn11374 said:


> I've spoke to quite a few divorced men over the past few weeks - friends, coworkers etc. In EVERY case, it's the wife who did the actual filing, even when it was the husband who wanted the divorce. This was even true in my situation. What I can tell is my bf wants the wife to take an active part in the process rather than it being a unilateral action on his part. It makes him feel better that she comes to terms with the fact that the marriage was not a fit and it's in both of their best interests to file.
> I know this seems like a fantasy, but so many things men do will never make sense to me. This is the way that he wants to do it and whenever he shares news of his attempts to put that plan in motion, I am attacking him and he feels like he doesn't have a partner in me to support him through this. I had the benefit of a spouse who wanted to move things along at a quick pace where he does not. So if I moved out, it's very possible he might feel compelled to force himself to file to save our relationship. But I don't want him to do something in a manner that doesn't feel right to him and then possibly resent me for it down the line. That doesn't mean I am going to keep waiting. A @deidre says I will not let this affect my identify or values, and I need to set boundaries for myself like many of you had advised. I seem to need reminding of that and TAM is certainly the place to get that reminder
> 
> This is really difficult for him and I get the sense that men have an even more difficult time having the emotional tools to execute this kind of thing. My bf is a very sensitive, compassionate type of person and his emotions do tend to overshadow his ability to reason. He is not the alpha male bull-in-a-china-shop kinda guy. It's one of the things I love about him but it also frustrates me!


And to add...you do realize that you have allowed his emotional connection to his wife, and her emotional well being to completely dictate the direction of your life here right? His wife at this point is running your life. Not you.


----------



## lynn11374

samyeagar said:


> And to add...you do realize that you have allowed his emotional connection to his wife, and her emotional well being to completely dictate the direction of your life here right? His wife at this point is running your life. Not you.


yes I have thought about that. That's why I am saying I'm not going to sit around waiting indefinitely. I'm just trying not to judge him, especially since I did a lot of the same things he is doing. I strung my ex H along for 2 years until he got fed up, ended up in an EA and then pulled the plug. I try to think back and remember how difficult this was for me and try to empathize with him without throwing my life away. Next time he brings up how she is telling him she has other priorities right now and doesn't have time to discuss division of assets, i will remind him of what you wrote. And if still no action, I leave.


----------



## Blondilocks

Your bf's actions belie the statement that he is very sensitive and compassionate. Where was his sensitivity and compassion for his wife when he was living with her and dating you?

The only thing clouding his ability to reason is his johnson.


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## wringo123

lynn11374 said:


> I've spoke to quite a few divorced men over the past few weeks - friends, coworkers etc. In EVERY case, it's the wife who did the actual filing, even when it was the husband who wanted the divorce. This was even true in my situation. What I can tell is my bf wants the wife to take an active part in the process rather than it being a unilateral action on his part. It makes him feel better that she comes to terms with the fact that the marriage was not a fit and it's in both of their best interests to file.
> I know this seems like a fantasy, but so many things men do will never make sense to me. This is the way that he wants to do it and whenever he shares news of his attempts to put that plan in motion, I am attacking him and he feels like he doesn't have a partner in me to support him through this. I had the benefit of a spouse who wanted to move things along at a quick pace where he does not. So if I moved out, it's very possible he might feel compelled to force himself to file to save our relationship. But I don't want him to do something in a manner that doesn't feel right to him and then possibly resent me for it down the line. That doesn't mean I am going to keep waiting. A @deidre says I will not let this affect my identify or values, and I need to set boundaries for myself like many of you had advised. I seem to need reminding of that and TAM is certainly the place to get that reminder
> 
> This is really difficult for him and I get the sense that men have an even more difficult time having the emotional tools to execute this kind of thing. My bf is a very sensitive, compassionate type of person and his emotions do tend to overshadow his ability to reason. He is not the alpha male bull-in-a-china-shop kinda guy. It's one of the things I love about him but it also frustrates me!


In other words he doesn't like doing anything that is uncomfortable or inconvenient for him even if it's something that is important to you and in the best interest of your relationship. Sounds like a wonderful guy and someone who you will always count on to have your back.


Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


----------



## *Deidre*

lynn11374 said:


> yes I have thought about that. That's why I am saying I'm not going to sit around waiting indefinitely. I'm just trying not to judge him, especially since I did a lot of the same things he is doing. I strung my ex H along for 2 years until he got fed up, ended up in an EA and then pulled the plug. I try to think back and remember how difficult this was for me and try to empathize with him without throwing my life away. Next time he brings up how she is telling him she has other priorities right now and doesn't have time to discuss division of assets, i will remind him of what you wrote. And if still no action, I leave.


I don't understand why he's not filing. Is his wife threatening to jump off a building or something? lol I think this is probably him making himself sound like an amazing catch, and his wife just can't bear to part with him. All you know, is what he tells you, and a few random texts. 

Please don't go back on your promise to keep October 1st as the deadline. Something tells me, he will not be filed by then, so you'll have to be strong and be true to yourself, lynn. Sorry you find yourself in all of this, but truthfully, only you can change it.


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## lynn11374

*Deidre* said:


> I don't understand why he's not filing. Is his wife threatening to jump off a building or something? lol I think this is probably him making himself sound like an amazing catch, and his wife just can't bear to part with him. All you know, is what he tells you, and a few random texts.
> 
> Please don't go back on your promise to keep October 1st as the deadline. Something tells me, he will not be filed by then, so you'll have to be strong and be true to yourself, lynn. Sorry you find yourself in all of this, but truthfully, only you can change it.


Well, she was threatening to kill herself with sleeping pills in the beginning. But that was a while back. I just saw an email reply come through from her on his computer and the beginning of it read "Right now, my NUMBER ONE priority is..." which sounds again like he's trying to move forward to figure out the splitting of assets and she's telling him it's not a good time. She's probably talking about healing from the eye infection. Who knows.

I'm not going back on the deadline. I'm sitting here next to him with tears in my eyes because i do know he wants to be with me. His mom and brothers bought me birthday gifts and he wants to buy a home with me. It's not like I'm the side chick he does't talk about and no one sees


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## samyeagar

lynn11374 said:


> Well, she was threatening to kill herself with sleeping pills in the beginning. But that was a while back. I just saw an email reply come through from her on his computer and the beginning of it read "Right now, my NUMBER ONE priority is..." which sounds again like he's trying to move forward to figure out the splitting of assets and she's telling him it's not a good time. She's probably talking about healing from the eye infection. Who knows.
> 
> I'm not going back on the deadline. I'm sitting here next to him with tears in my eyes because i do know he wants to be with me. His mom and brothers bought me birthday gifts and he wants to buy a home with me. It's not like I'm the side chick he does't talk about and no one sees


No, you're a side chick that he flaunts.


----------



## wringo123

lynn11374 said:


> I've spoke to quite a few divorced men over the past few weeks - friends, coworkers etc. In EVERY case, it's the wife who did the actual filing, even when it was the husband who wanted the divorce. This was even true in my situation. What I can tell is my bf wants the wife to take an active part in the process rather than it being a unilateral action on his part. It makes him feel better that she comes to terms with the fact that the marriage was not a fit and it's in both of their best interests to file.
> I know this seems like a fantasy, but so many things men do will never make sense to me. This is the way that he wants to do it and whenever he shares news of his attempts to put that plan in motion, I am attacking him and he feels like he doesn't have a partner in me to support him through this. I had the benefit of a spouse who wanted to move things along at a quick pace where he does not. So if I moved out, it's very possible he might feel compelled to force himself to file to save our relationship. But I don't want him to do something in a manner that doesn't feel right to him and then possibly resent me for it down the line. That doesn't mean I am going to keep waiting. A @deidre says I will not let this affect my identify or values, and I need to set boundaries for myself like many of you had advised. I seem to need reminding of that and TAM is certainly the place to get that reminder
> 
> This is really difficult for him and I get the sense that men have an even more difficult time having the emotional tools to execute this kind of thing. My bf is a very sensitive, compassionate type of person and his emotions do tend to overshadow his ability to reason. He is not the alpha male bull-in-a-china-shop kinda guy. It's one of the things I love about him but it also frustrates me!


There is a difference between being sensitive and compassionate and being indecisive and wishy washy.

My x was one of this men who wanted the divorce but I had to be the one to file. Knowing him, it's not hard to believe. He never would make the hard choices and always took the path of least resistance. It was one of the main reasons I had so little respect for him in the end. He never wanted to be held accountable for his choices so he just never made them. That way he was never to blame and was never the bad guy.

His indecision was all about protecting himself, just like your bf. There is nothing compassionate or honorable about that.

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


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## *Deidre*

lynn11374 said:


> Well, she was threatening to kill herself with sleeping pills in the beginning. But that was a while back. I just saw an email reply come through from her on his computer and the beginning of it read "Right now, my NUMBER ONE priority is..." which sounds again like he's trying to move forward to figure out the splitting of assets and she's telling him it's not a good time. She's probably talking about healing from the eye infection. Who knows.
> 
> I'm not going back on the deadline. I'm sitting here next to him with tears in my eyes because i do know he wants to be with me. His mom and brothers bought me birthday gifts and he wants to buy a home with me. It's not like I'm the side chick he does't talk about and no one sees


I feel bad for you, lynn. You sound like you truly care for this guy, and that's why it's so hard. My biggest concern for you, is that he does file, you stay with him, and this woman always remains in the shadows, pulling at him. 

OCTOBER 1ST!!! We will remind you. Relentlessly. :grin2:

Only because we care.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

But does he want you enough to put your feelings ahead of his ex wife's? To put you first even if it makes him a little uncomfortable? 

Anyone can want you and want to stay with you when it's easy. It's how they act when things are hard tells you a lot more. At this point he would rather hurt you and risk you leaving. 

For something he should have done ages ago and makes worse every day he doesn't. Every dollar he is making everyday he doesn't file is half hers. 

And if it takes him this long to just file, how is the actual divorce going to go? More years of in and out of court, trying not to cause conflict (with her, not you) and endless back and forth between them. 

I'd say find an apartment close with a 6 month lease. If by the time the lease is over he isn't divorced, move back to your family. You'll know then how important you are to him or if he just goes back to his wife.


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## JustTheFacts

Bottom line is that you are in an emotional fog and you are reasoning away red flags. You are not #1 in his life. Just off the top of my head, right now his wife and his finances are ahead of you and I don't see that changing. EVER. I feel bad for what you are going to go through with him. Please don't have children with him.


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## turnera

I agree. Get a 6-month lease. Move out and don't sleep with him. Tell him that's for your husband. If the papers aren't in court by January, move back home.


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## phillybeffandswiss

You are reading his emails and texts. Let that sink in. You are in a relationship so wonderful, you are reading his emails and texts. You are also taking advice from a person in a affair, I guess we could stretch you into an affair partner, who is an unhappy woman who hasn't filed for divorce and thinks she is in the minority with her thinking. So, how does this reconcile with your interviews? All the men you talked to didn't divorce. The one person who you feel understands you is a woman, who had/ is having an affair, who kept on living a lie and didn't file.

Just saying, you can make ANYTHING fit your circumstances if you try hard enough.


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## MattMatt

Your boyfriend reminded me of someone. It took me a while until I realised who:-


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## oldshirt

"The mental gymnastics and self justification are strong with this one."

- Darth Vader

(Well ok, those weren't his exact words, but that's what he would say if he was reading this thread.


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## Diana7

He will never file for divorce unless you act.Do you still want to be in this position, living with a married man, in 2 or 3 years time. Then do nothing. 
Get a place for 6 months near him. See what happens in that time. If nothing then you have your answer. His wife will never be ready. It will never be a good time.She may threaten suicide every time he tries to end the marriage. 
I feel for her, she is clearly devastated, and he should not have dated again until this was sorted.


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## Satya

Lynn, do you have some girlfriends you can hang with? You know, wholesome women friends?

I think you need to start being around people other than him. Don't worry, he's not going anywhere.


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## lynn11374

Thank you guys for all of your guidance and support. Many posters responding to my thread i can tell are genuinely trying to help me which I really appreciate 

I like the idea of the 6 month lease nearby. @Diana7, I agree, I have thought that she might start the suicide threats again if he really pushes her or files on his own and we will be back at square one. When I have told him I don't want my feelings and needs to have to compete with hers, he said it's only temporary. So let's see him put that into action.

This morning in bed, right after we woke up, he started asking me about what kind of wedding I would like to have and also brought up engagement rings. I told him before we can get married he needs to get "unmarried" first!
@Satya for the most part I do not really have girlfriends nearby which is an issue. My closest friend is an hour and half away. I have started spending more time with extended family and also my ex-sister in law so I have some kind of a social life outside of him. I also spend a lot of time at the gym and have started to make some acquaintances there.


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## Satya

He's bringing up marriage because he thinks that's what you want to hear and will keep your feet firmly planted. That's still not fixing the real problem, as you are already well aware.

I'm glad you're doing other things. Meetup.com is another good resource to consider.


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## lynn11374

Satya said:


> He's bringing up marriage because he thinks that's what you want to hear and will keep your feet firmly planted. That's still not fixing the real problem, as you are already well aware.
> 
> I'm glad you're doing other things. Meetup.com is another good resource to consider.


 I believe it's also his way of surveying my goals, to provide some additional initiative for him to forge ahead with the divorce without her blessing despite the issues that are holding him back. He wants to know I'm in it with him for the long-haul. That being said, I've never expressed to him my sense of enthusiasm about getting married. I feel it, however I don't express it to him. I will once I see him moving forward with things.


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## Malaise

Satya said:


> He's bringing up marriage because he thinks that's what you want to hear and will keep your feet firmly planted. That's still not fixing the real problem, as you are already well aware.
> 
> I'm glad you're doing other things. Meetup.com is another good resource to consider.


A good magician keeps his/her audience's attention on one hand while the other hand picks the coin out of the air.

Distractions.


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## Dannip

You're being played and delayed. 

There's a decent guy out there he's preventing you from meeting. 

... and a decent life with that decent guy. Much better than the **** sandwich he's offering you.

406 posts and zero change in the title of your thread. I think you deserve so much better. Don't you?


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## *Deidre*

So, he won’t get a divorce if you left him? You should have nothing to do with him getting a divorce. Or did he only want a divorce when he started seeing you. 

The more I’m reading about your bf, he sounds very manipulative, borderline narcissistic. Read up on narcissism, it’s very telling. They are the center of the universe, everything is about them, and they take manipulation to an art form. He is dangling the marriage carrot in front of your face so you have the illusion that he wants a commitment. He needs to be divorced. And I think you’re going to get really hurt, at some point with this guy.


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## Magnesium

She doesn't want to hear it. She wants to play this game because she really thinks she's going to win. What she refuses to see is that winning this "prize" is still losing.

Let her have it her way. Maybe she'll be back next year crying about how he dumped her to play the field in his newfound freedom, or whining that he is still not divorced. Or, worst of all, he divorced his wife, married her and is now cheating on her. 

Whatever ....her choice.


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## phillybeffandswiss

It's really sad because, if the wife was here we'd be explaining to her how Lynn is the other woman and she needs to move on with her life. It's crazy watching this from the other perspective. I mean Lynn is doing the same mental gymnastics, minus the self harm threats, as his wife. "I will wait, I know we can fix this, he's doing things for me, he is looking out for me" and on and on and on.

I'm moving further and further into the narcissism camp. This dude enjoys having two women fight over him.


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## oldshirt

One of the great roles that these cheater narcissists play is that if the Timid Forest Creature.

In their quest for kibbles and strokes, they are able to make both the BS and the AP believe that if they make one wrong move or scare or upset the Timid Forest Creature in any way, that they will immediately scamper away under the forest foliage never to be seen again.

This Timid Foest Creature routine has both the BS and the AP doing the "Pick me! Dance" and walking on eggshells so as not to frighten them away.

Insecurity is a very powerful force.


----------



## oldshirt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It's really sad because, if the wife was here we'd be explaining to her how Lynn is the other woman and she needs to move on with her life. It's crazy watching this from the other perspective. I mean Lynn is doing the same mental gymnastics, minus the self harm threats, as his wife. "I will wait, I know we can fix this, he's doing things for me, he is looking out for me" and on and on and on.
> 
> I'm moving further and further into the narcissism camp. This dude enjoys having two women fight over him.


With the exception of one or maybe two posters, people have essentially been telling Lynn to move on. 

My recommendation from the opening pages of this thread is to move out, get back on the dating market (dating actual single/divorced men) and if he shows up down the road with the final divorce decree in his hand and asks her out, she can consider it like any other date offer. 

That is the only actual effective way of dealing with a triangle and that is to take yourself out of it.
Anything else is just Jedi Mind Tricks and when it comes to Jedi Mind Tricks, the narcissist cheater that the center of the triangle is always the Jedi Master and the Puppet Master pulling everyone's strings.


----------



## Diana7

lynn11374 said:


> Thank you guys for all of your guidance and support. Many posters responding to my thread i can tell are genuinely trying to help me which I really appreciate
> 
> I like the idea of the 6 month lease nearby. @Diana7, I agree, I have thought that she might start the suicide threats again if he really pushes her or files on his own and we will be back at square one. When I have told him I don't want my feelings and needs to have to compete with hers, he said it's only temporary. So let's see him put that into action.
> 
> This morning in bed, right after we woke up, he started asking me about what kind of wedding I would like to have and also brought up engagement rings. I told him before we can get married he needs to get "unmarried" first!
> 
> @Satya for the most part I do not really have girlfriends nearby which is an issue. My closest friend is an hour and half away. I have started spending more time with extended family and also my ex-sister in law so I have some kind of a social life outside of him. I also spend a lot of time at the gym and have started to make some acquaintances there.


You can't get engaged when you are still married. 
As I said, if you dont act, you will still be in this position in 2 years time.


----------



## oldshirt

lynn11374 said:


> This morning in bed, right after we woke up, he started asking me about what kind of wedding I would like to have and also brought up engagement rings.
> 
> .


Look up the term, "future faking." It's an actual thing. 

It is page #4 of The Cheater's Playbook. It is not original or unique, they all do it.


----------



## oldshirt

lynn11374 said:


> I believe it's also his way of surveying my goals, to provide some additional initiative for him to forge ahead with the divorce without her blessing despite the issues that are holding him back. He wants to know I'm in it with him for the long-haul. That being said, I've never expressed to him my sense of enthusiasm about getting married. I feel it, however I don't express it to him. I will once I see him moving forward with things.


There are more holes in this logic than a screen door. 

You are going through tremendous mental gymnastics to try to justify staying with him. 

Why are you so desperate to accept and settle for this? These are things you should discuss with a therapist to get to the root of your self-worth issues that lead you to contort yourself into these outlandish justifications.

He does not need to "survey" you to determine your motives and objectives. It is all Chrystal clear by the fact you are buying into this at all.


----------



## oldshirt

And while you are looking up terms, look up the term, "Sunken Cost Fallacy."

I think this is playing a significant role here.

In the early days of your affair, you convinced yourself that he was "the one" and you invested yourself heavily into this relationship.

On a logical and intellectual level, you realize this is a dead end and a bust. But you feel you have already put so much time, energy and emotional investment into this that you can't bail out now or it will all be for not.

So you are like the compulsive gambler that has lost about all his money feeding the slot machines but he just keeps pouring more money into it because if he walks away now, what he has already out into it will be gone.

But what that is not factoring in is the loss of future time, energy and money due to refusing to believe it is simply a bad investment. 

This dude may be handsome, sexy and pleasant, but he is a bad investment as a partner because he is married to someone else and making no strides towards becoming single.

You may lose your prior investment in walking away now, but you save all that loss of future assets that would otherwise be squandered.


----------



## MJJEAN

oldshirt said:


> One of the great roles that these cheater narcissists play is that if the Timid Forest Creature.
> 
> In their quest for kibbles and strokes, they are able to make both the BS and the AP believe that if they make one wrong move or scare or upset the Timid Forest Creature in any way, that they will immediately scamper away under the forest foliage never to be seen again.
> 
> This Timid Foest Creature routine has both the BS and the AP doing the "Pick me! Dance" and walking on eggshells so as not to frighten them away.
> 
> Insecurity is a very powerful force.


What has always confused the hell out of me is why anyone would want a Timid Forest Creature in the first place. If TFC scampers into the foliage, well, good riddance.


My theories:

1) He's too mentally weak and easily manipulated by his wife to file.

2) He's trying to be sneaky and is actually being stupid. He doesn't want to file the papers because he knows his wife will be entitled to a percentage of the value of his business, income, and other assets and doesn't want to give her what is legally hers. So, he's trying to sneak a settlement agreement done privately past her before she realizes what she could get. Which is also stupid as the longer they are married, the more she is entitled to.

3) He a manipulative bastard and is keeping both women as long as they'll let him. He's got no intention of divorcing unless/until he is forced to and is keeping his wife as Plan B indefinitely. 

Any of those would be enough for me to walk.


----------



## Malaise

MJJEAN said:


> What has always confused the hell out of me is why anyone would want a Timid Forest Creature in the first place. If TFC scampers into the foliage, well, good riddance.
> 
> 
> My theories:
> 
> 1) He's too mentally weak and easily manipulated by his wife to file.
> 
> 2)* He's trying to be sneaky and is actually being stupid. He doesn't want to file the papers because he knows his wife will be entitled to a percentage of the value of his business, income, and other assets and doesn't want to give her what is legally hers. So, he's trying to sneak a settlement agreement done privately past her before she realizes what she could get. Which is also stupid as the longer they are married, the more she is entitled to.
> *
> 3) He a manipulative bastard and is keeping both women as long as they'll let him. He's got no intention of divorcing unless/until he is forced to and is keeping his wife as Plan B indefinitely.
> 
> Any of those would be enough for me to walk.


This. It doesn't reflect well on his character.


----------



## lynn11374

I agree it's probably mostly number 2. Although, reading through some posts on TAM, it looks like most men consider a woman getting her fair share from a divorce to be "taken to the cleaners"


----------



## lynn11374

Also wanted to add, before I told him I was not going to buy a house, we met with a real estate agent. He was explaining his situation to the agent who then turned around and kept giving him unsolicited advice on how to keep her from taking his money in the divorce. He's had numerous divorced men telling him he's going to get screwed over financially.


----------



## *Deidre*

lynn11374 said:


> Also wanted to add, before I told him I was not going to buy a house, we met with a real estate agent. He was explaining his situation to the agent who then turned around and kept giving him unsolicited advice on how to keep her from taking his money in the divorce. He's had numerous divorced men telling him he's going to get screwed over financially.


So, maybe he should just stay married, then? lol 

What have YOUR FRIENDS who are close to you, felt about your bf still being married and not filed? What does your family think? Like if I were in your situation, I can't imagine my parents (or close friends) being happy if I were dating a married man who won't file for divorce for over a year. They would tell me to end it. Not because they're mean, but because they love me. You are in a bad situation.


----------



## lynn11374

*Deidre* said:


> lynn11374 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also wanted to add, before I told him I was not going to buy a house, we met with a real estate agent. He was explaining his situation to the agent who then turned around and kept giving him unsolicited advice on how to keep her from taking his money in the divorce. He's had numerous divorced men telling him he's going to get screwed over financially.
> 
> 
> 
> So, maybe he should just stay married, then? lol
> 
> What have YOUR FRIENDS who are close to you, felt about your bf still being married and not filed? What does your family think?
Click to expand...

 The women say they don't understand why I'm putting myself in this situation. Guys tell me to give him a chance.


----------



## oldshirt

lynn11374 said:


> I agree it's probably mostly number 2. Although, reading through some posts on TAM, it looks like most men consider a woman getting her fair share from a divorce to be "taken to the cleaners"


That depends in the character and motives of the man.

A decent man who cares about his children and just wants out from under the marriage will agree to a fair and equitable distribution of assets without incident and will try to make things as fair and drama free as possible.

A narcissist, douche or person of generally low character will do all he can to make sure the STBX gets as little as he can get away with, even if it means all assets eventually get eaten up by the additional lawyer bills and court costs of dragging it out.

How a person treats their ex in the divorce is a good window into their character. 

Now you will probably twist that into thinking that he is great guy and is trying to be accomidating to her and not upset her. But the reality is this is something much more insideous and sinister than trying to accommodate her. 

There are many warning signs here. 

If guys are telling you that they all fight a fair and equitable divorce, you are hanging out with the wrong crowd.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

oldshirt said:


> With the exception of one or maybe two posters, people have essentially been telling Lynn to move on.


Nope, we will disagree on how we are reading the thread. There are a ton more middle of the road, of varying degrees, in this thread right now. I get why, but it just fuels the "hang on I can still interact with him" scenario she has built.


----------



## *Deidre*

lynn11374 said:


> The women say they don't understand why I'm putting myself in this situation. Guys tell me to give him a chance.


Guys like your bf? Lynn, it's your life, and you're wasting it on a guy and all of his drama. I hope that you find a way to be true to your own values, because you did post this thread for a reason. Probably because you know it's not a good situation.


----------



## turnera

I believe that people are weak. That we are driven by fear. Fear from a million sources. Fear drives us to NOT do things, fear drives us TO do things. In all my 60 years, I've run into maybe 5 people who actually have self confidence, poise, wisdom, and insight to not be reactive to their fears. Your man fears. You fear. If you can somehow figure out how to think outside of your fear, you'll finally be in control of your life.


----------



## Dannip

*Deidre* said:


> Guys like your bf? Lynn, it's your life, and you're wasting it on a guy and all of his drama. I hope that you find a way to be true to your own values, because you did post this thread for a reason. Probably because you know it's not a good situation.


Amen

Guy here. Tons of experience in a lot of ways. I say dump the jerk. He's in it for himself. You are not even on a backup list of priorities. Run, don't walk. Own your life.

You came here for a reason. Can't be because you want to stick around with this loser.


----------



## Zanne

Dannip said:


> *You came here for a reason.* Can't be because you want to stick around with this loser.


Perhaps Lynn came here seeking advice about how to resolve a problem in her relationship?


----------



## Zanne

I don't see anything in her original post which indicates she is ready to throw in the towel. She has stated that she loves this man. And now when it comes out that they met under questionable circumstances (both still legally married), the general consensus is to break up with him.

It's up to Lynn to decide if she wants to call it quits. IDK, maybe she will. I just think she is receiving an awful lot of one sided advice for the wrong reasons. Now people are convinced that her boyfriend has NPD?!! He may be self centered in ways, but narcissistic personality disorder is actually rare. Again with the armchair counseling. Ugh.

Take note of what she wrote in her original post below.



lynn11374 said:


> everything is great in our relationship. He is very kind and loving towards me, goes above and beyond to make me happy, and we have a lot in common. He has integrated me into his life, family and friends. *I am very happy with everything except for the fact that he hasn't filed for divorce yet.*





lynn11374 said:


> *I don't know how to approach the conversation because it always ends up in a fight.* Any advice?


Again, she wants to know how to *resolve a conflict* in this relationship. That's the type of advice she can take with her to the next relationship, should she find herself deciding that's the best choice. Not cut her losses and run. The guy doesn't sound like a monster, just a guy with some conflict resolution issues. If they are both committed to a healthier relationship than the ones they just left, I don't see why she needs to "get back out on the dating scene."


----------



## Livvie

Zanne said:


> I don't see anything in her original post which indicates she is ready to throw in the towel. She has stated that she loves this man. And now when it comes out that they met under questionable circumstances (both still legally married), the general consensus is to break up with him.
> 
> It's up to Lynn to decide if she wants to call it quits. IDK, maybe she will. I just think she is receiving an awful lot of one sided advice for the wrong reasons. Now people are convinced that her boyfriend has NPD?!! He may be self centered in ways, but narcissistic personality disorder is actually rare. Again with the armchair counseling. Ugh.
> 
> Take note of what she wrote in her original post below.
> 
> 
> 
> lynn11374 said:
> 
> 
> 
> everything is great in our relationship. He is very kind and loving towards me, goes above and beyond to make me happy, and we have a lot in common. He has integrated me into his life, family and friends. *I am very happy with everything except for the fact that he hasn't filed for divorce yet.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lynn11374 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I don't know how to approach the conversation because it always ends up in a fight.* Any advice?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, she wants to know how to *resolve a conflict* in this relationship. That's the type of advice she can take with her to the next relationship, should she find herself deciding that's the best choice. Not cut her losses and run. The guy doesn't sound like a monster, just a guy with some conflict resolution issues. If they are both committed to a healthier relationship than the ones they just left, I don't see why she needs to "get back out on the dating scene."
Click to expand...

The problem is, this isn't a conflict in their relationship, between the two of them, that conflict resolution techniques can improve. This is: ***the man is married to someone else and hasn't filed for divorce***. It's not a "relationship conflict" between OP and this man.

This guy isn't committed to a healthier relationship than the one he just left, either. Because-----HE IS STILL MARRIED, hasn't filed for divorce. He hasn't LEFT.

That's why the responses are overwhelming what they are.


----------



## Zanne

Livvie said:


> The problem is, this isn't a conflict in their relationship, between the two of them, that conflict resolution techniques can improve. This is: ***the man is married to someone else and hasn't filed for divorce***. It's not a "relationship conflict" between OP and this man.
> 
> This guy isn't committed to a healthier relationship than the one he just left, either. Because-----HE IS STILL MARRIED, hasn't filed for divorce. He hasn't LEFT.
> 
> That's why the responses are overwhelming what they are.


IOW, if a piece of paper was filed, she would be getting different advice.


----------



## samyeagar

Zanne said:


> IOW, if a piece of paper was filed, she would be getting different advice.


Yes...of sorts. Many would still say put the relationship on pause until his marriage is over, but the real issue here is not even so much that he is not officially divorced yet. It's that he has allegedly been separated from his wife for nearly two years, yet there has not only been no meaningful movement towards divorce, he is in fact actively engaging in prolonging behavior with absolutely zero signs of actually divorcing. On top of that, he regularly meets with his wife, he is in and out of the marital home. And then lynns latest revelation where they were laying in bed and he started talking about their wedding and engagement ring...I mean WTF??? Was he kicked in the head by a mule when he was a kid or something?


----------



## Diana7

samyeagar said:


> Yes...of sorts. Many would still say put the relationship on pause until his marriage is over, but the real issue here is not even so much that he is not officially divorced yet. It's that he has allegedly been separated from his wife for nearly two years, yet there has not only been no meaningful movement towards divorce, he is in fact actively engaging in prolonging behavior with absolutely zero signs of actually divorcing. On top of that, he regularly meets with his wife, he is in and out of the marital home. And then lynns latest revelation where they were laying in bed and he started talking about their wedding and engagement ring...I mean WTF??? Was he kicked in the head by a mule when he was a kid or something?


 Of course, if the divorce was in progress the advice would be different. I would still advise to not move in or have sex till the divorce was final. That was her big mistake, agreeing to do those things before the divorce was in progress, and that's why she needs to move out and give him a set time to begin and complete the process. If it doesn't happen in that time then I would advise moving on.


----------



## *Deidre*

Livvie said:


> The problem is, this isn't a conflict in their relationship, between the two of them, that conflict resolution techniques can improve. This is: ***the man is married to someone else and hasn't filed for divorce***. It's not a "relationship conflict" between OP and this man.
> 
> This guy isn't committed to a healthier relationship than the one he just left, either. Because-----HE IS STILL MARRIED, hasn't filed for divorce. He hasn't LEFT.
> 
> That's why the responses are overwhelming what they are.


Completely this, the guy is still married and it's not like he just left his wife, and started seeing lynn last month. They have been together well over a year and he still hasn't FILED. It has nothing to do with a conflict between them both, it's that he is still married, and that lynn believed him when he likely said he was getting a divorce well over a year ago when they started dating.

There are tons of GOOD men out there who have their acts together, that you'd have chemistry and a good friendship with, and know who they want to be with. This guy isn't one of them.


----------



## oldshirt

Zanne said:


> Perhaps Lynn came here seeking advice about how to resolve a problem in her relationship?


Actually she hasn't asked for advice on the relationship. According to her the relationship is just fine.

The issue isn't in how they relate to each other, the issue is that he is married to someone else and won't get a divorce.

The catch to that is you can't 'make' another adult do something they don't want to do. She can only govern her own actions and behaviors and not his.


----------



## oldshirt

Livvie said:


> The problem is, this isn't a conflict in their relationship, between the two of them, that conflict resolution techniques can improve. This is: ***the man is married to someone else and hasn't filed for divorce***. It's not a "relationship conflict" between OP and this man.
> 
> This guy isn't committed to a healthier relationship than the one he just left, either. Because-----HE IS STILL MARRIED, hasn't filed for divorce. He hasn't LEFT.
> 
> That's why the responses are overwhelming what they are.


This ^^^^^^^^^


----------



## oldshirt

Zanne said:


> IOW, if a piece of paper was filed, she would be getting different advice.


That depends on whether he was actually making strides towards making the divorce happen or not.

All filing for divorce is is filling out a application and turning it into the clerk of court. People can still do nothing and drag it out for years. 

If he was actively working towards actually securing a divorce and moving in with his life, then yes, the advice would be different.

But if all he did was turn in the petition and then sat in his hands and filed one delay after another and still took no actual action to actually get the divorce - then everything would all still be pretty much as it is now.

Submitting the paperwork for a divorce is simply a step in a thousand step process. If someone just sits in their hands and does nothing else, then it really doesn't mean much as there are still 999 other steps that must be done.

This guy is nothing more that a talker. He doesnt actually do anything. We are what we do, not what we say. He's what my grandmother would've called a do-nuth'n.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Wow. Where is the captain Obvious meme? Of course a different situation may lead to different advice. Now, you are being a contrarian just to be posting. 

If he filed and his wife refused to sign, it could be different.
If it was filed, but he never pushed it forward it could be different.
If he filed and there was a judge postponement , the advice could be different.
If it was delayed because he filed and they decided mediation would be better, it could be different.

IOW, yes, different situations lead to different advice.

Still what ifs do not matter. She asked for ANY advice, not just what she or you want to hear. Dude is still visiting his animals and giving multiple excuses for waiting his wife out.


----------



## wringo123

oldshirt said:


> Look up the term, "future faking." It's an actual thing.
> 
> It is page #4 of The Cheater's Playbook. It is not original or unique, they all do it.


The list I read even included "lets buy a house together" and "what kind of engagement ring do you want" as classic future faking lines.

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


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## oldshirt

wringo123 said:


> The list I read even included "lets buy a house together" and "what kind of engagement ring do you want" as classic future faking lines.
> 
> Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


Oh I know a gal that was with a married man for several years who actually had and wore an engagement ring and HE WAS STILL LIVING WITH HIS WIFE. 

At the point I moved away and lost contact with her, she had been with the MM for FIVE YEARS and he was still in the marital home with the wife. And during those five years he not only bought her a ring, but he talked about how many kids they should have, what kind of house they should get, what kind of cars they would drive blah blah blah. 

- FIVE YEARS. 

I lost contact with her and have no idea how any of that turned out, but she was falling for it hook, line and sinker for years. 

I think Lynn here is also one of those people that is very susceptible to future faking and thinks it is for real.


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## Blondilocks

The OP has been advised how to deal with the 'conflict' since she has no power in resolving the 'conflict'. Her best move is to remove herself from the situation altogether until the conflict has been resolved by the two parties involved. This is the only way she will know if he comes to her with a clear heart rather than from fear which can lead to resentment and acting out.


----------



## Dannip

Zanne said:


> Perhaps Lynn came here seeking advice about how to resolve a problem in her relationship?


And I provided one based on my limited experience and limited story Lynn provided.


----------



## samyeagar

Hey Lynn...reading this made me think of your situation...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...297-husband-left-2-yrs-ago-another-woman.html


----------



## lynn11374

so..Last night he shared me with me a recap of his conversation with the wife. He reached out to her to schedule a date with the mediator and they ended up getting into an argument because she is hysterical claiming he doesn't give a sh!t about her and just wants to get her out of his life and let her rot. And this divorce is extremely hard for her and causing her health issues - in addition to the eye infection, she ended up with a UTI and now some other illness because of the stress, it's taking a toll on her physically. So this ended up in an argument between me and him because I started going off on him about how he needs to move forward. he said the main issue is guilt and his concern for his wife's physical and emotional health. he's not going to just plow through with his own plans without considering her needs, and asked if I valued that about him. I said I did and he said I sure didn't show it, I only seem concerned about myself. He thought he'd have my support as he navigates this in a way that keeps things amicable and minimizes the pain she is going through, and all I do is fight with him about it. So I guess he is not filing any time very soon.


----------



## Melrose8888

lynn11374 said:


> so..Last night he shared me with me a recap of his conversation with the wife. He reached out to her to schedule a date with the mediator and they ended up getting into an argument because she is hysterical claiming he doesn't give a sh!t about her and just wants to get her out of his life and let her rot. And this divorce is extremely hard for her and causing her health issues - in addition to the eye infection, she ended up with a UTI and now some other illness because of the stress, it's taking a toll on her physically. So this ended up in an argument between me and him because I started going off on him about how he needs to move forward. he said the main issue is guilt and his concern for his wife's physical and emotional health. he's not going to just plow through with his own plans without considering her needs, and asked if I valued that about him. I said I did and he said I sure didn't show it, I only seem concerned about myself. He thought he'd have my support as he navigates this in a way that keeps things amicable and minimizes the pain she is going through, and all I do is fight with him about it. So I guess he is not filing any time very soon.


Please, for the sake of YOUR health, take a break from him.

As myself and others keep saying, if he is the man you claim him to be, he will still be there for you when he finally stops using excuses and eventually files and divorces her.

Who knows, in the meantime the space might allow you to assess this from a different perspective and who knows, there might be someone better, less complicated for you out there.

Either way, for me, the advice is the same - take a break.


----------



## Livvie

lynn11374 said:


> so..Last night he shared me with me a recap of his conversation with the wife. He reached out to her to schedule a date with the mediator and they ended up getting into an argument because she is hysterical claiming he doesn't give a sh!t about her and just wants to get her out of his life and let her rot. And this divorce is extremely hard for her and causing her health issues - in addition to the eye infection, she ended up with a UTI and now some other illness because of the stress, it's taking a toll on her physically. So this ended up in an argument between me and him because I started going off on him about how he needs to move forward. he said the main issue is guilt and his concern for his wife's physical and emotional health. he's not going to just plow through with his own plans without considering her needs, and asked if I valued that about him. I said I did and he said I sure didn't show it, I only seem concerned about myself. He thought he'd have my support as he navigates this in a way that keeps things amicable and minimizes the pain she is going through, and all I do is fight with him about it. So I guess he is not filing any time very soon.


This man is a toxic manipulator. He is divorcing her, so duh and yeah he does want her out of his life. UTI really???? You actually answered yes you value that he considers her needs instead of moving forward with his life?

So, are you ready to leave this extremely UNHEALTHY situation yet?


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

lynn11374 said:


> He thought he'd have my support as he navigates this in a way that keeps things amicable and minimizes the pain she is going through, and all I do is fight with him about it. So I guess he is not filing any time very soon.


LOL. Wasn't her eye infection a month ago and they're _still _milking that excuse? It doesn't matter, these two idiots would use a hangnail as an excuse to do exactly what they've BEEN doing - *nothing.
*
So.

You've gotten no further with Mr. Wonderful than you were back in December.

It's been 9 months of his douche-baggery, with no end in sight.

So what's your plan?

More waitin' and hopin'? I think you have a better chance of shaking hands with Jesus than you do of Lover Boy getting that divorce. But as long as the con man engages you in talk about 'weddings' and 'engagements' and all that fantasy nonsense, that's apparently all it takes to keep you there.

I'm just curious. Do you live on a deserted island - with no hope of ever getting back to the mainland - and he's the ONLY male human being on it?

I just can't figure out any other reason you would continually swallow your pride for someone like this.


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## turnera

So October is around the corner. Weren't you going to leave if he hadn't done something by then?

And look up gaslighting. He is gaslighting you. And you're falling for it.


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## Primrose

Manipulation. Again. How many times has something come up now? 

And at what point are you going to stop allowing this to go on?


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## Magnesium

lynn11374 said:


> so..Last night he shared me with me a recap of his conversation with the wife. He reached out to her to schedule a date with the mediator and they ended up getting into an argument because she is hysterical claiming he doesn't give a sh!t about her and just wants to get her out of his life and let her rot. And this divorce is extremely hard for her and causing her health issues - in addition to the eye infection, she ended up with a UTI and now some other illness because of the stress, it's taking a toll on her physically. So this ended up in an argument between me and him because I started going off on him about how he needs to move forward. he said the main issue is guilt and his concern for his wife's physical and emotional health. he's not going to just plow through with his own plans without considering her needs, and asked if I valued that about him. I said I did and he said I sure didn't show it, I only seem concerned about myself. He thought he'd have my support as he navigates this in a way that keeps things amicable and minimizes the pain she is going through, and all I do is fight with him about it. So I guess he is not filing any time very soon.


Shocker. Most here predicted it.

So, what's your new plan?


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## Works

This man does not sound like he will be filing anytime soon. If he wanted the divorce, he would have done it by now. Good luck!


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## *Deidre*

What was your deadline again, lynn? September?

You should really dump this guy...he's an a-hole, and is using you.

I would bet my bank account that he goes back with his wife, if you two break up.


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## Blondilocks

Why didn't you tell him the truth: "I don't give a crap about your wife. And, neither do you. Neither do you give a crap about me. You only care about cheating your wife out of some money."


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## MattMatt

Why is it that such a dastardly man can hook at least two nice, decent women at the same time? And lie to both of them?


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## turnera

*Deidre* said:


> I would bet my bank account that he goes back with his wife, if you two break up.


Oh, you KNOW he would.


----------



## Malaise

Blondilocks said:


> Why didn't you tell him the truth: "I don't give a crap about your wife. And, neither do you. Neither do you give a crap about me. You only care about cheating your wife out of some money."


Why would any decent woman want to be with a guy like this?

If he'll do it to her you don't think he'll do it to you?


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## phillybeffandswiss

Today:


lynn11374 said:


> so..Last night he shared me with me a recap of his conversation with the wife. He reached out to her to schedule a date with the mediator and they ended up getting into an argument because she is hysterical claiming he doesn't give a sh!t about her and just wants to get her out of his life and let her rot. And this divorce is extremely hard for her and causing her health issues - in addition to the eye infection, she ended up with a UTI and now some other illness because of the stress, it's taking a toll on her physically. So this ended up in an argument between me and him because I started going off on him about how he needs to move forward. he said the main issue is guilt and his concern for his wife's physical and emotional health. he's not going to just plow through with his own plans without considering her needs, and asked if I valued that about him. I said I did and he said I sure didn't show it, I only seem concerned about myself. He thought he'd have my support as he navigates this in a way that keeps things amicable and minimizes the pain she is going through, and all I do is fight with him about it. So I guess he is not filing any time very soon.



Part of your original post:


> His wife does not want a divorce. Every time he tries to talk to her about dividing up assets etc.., she becomes hysterical, saying she will instead wait for him to come back to her. He assures her he is not coming back, but says all she has in her life is the hope they can still work things out. They do not have kids. He has been waiting for her to come around and accept reality so they can move forward with filing but it's just not happening. I told him to just file, but he said he'd rather do this amicably and he is willing to give her whatever she wants in the divorce. He doesn't want to deal with lawyers and courts, and wants to make sure she is emotionally ok with everything. He has been encouraging her to start dating other people so she can move on, but she says absolutely not, she is waiting for him to come home.


 Three months later, same ****, different day.
Do you see the similarities that I do?




It is all about him maintain his wife's love and trying to use guilt to help you support his actions. There's is much more, but those are the two main points. Well, I'll be curious to see what you do as, October 1st is right around the corner and he is still saying the same things 3 months later.


----------



## Affaircare

Seriously?

He can't file divorce because she has an EYE infection:








and a Urinary Tract Infection... "from the stress"? 

Here--some antibiotics and some cranberry juice....and some papers. FIXED IT!!

I hope you realize this is :bsflag:

He is perfectly content to make your life unstable and hurt you up one side and down the other ... but for her, he is *****-footing around so he doesn't "stress her out." 

I speak with bravado, and it's easier said than done because I know you care about him, but do not sell yourself short. You deserve someone who will give ALL of himself to you. Pack your things, go find your own place, and pledge to yourself that the next person you're with will be someone who is 100% available to YOU and only YOU. And if that person in the future is this guy, make sure that before you do one thing with him that you see a signed, sealed, and finalized full DIVORCE!!


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## turnera

You do realize how stupid his 'excuse' sounds, right?


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## wringo123

lol, stress does not cause a UTI. Sex does...aka "reaching out to her"

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


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## Satya

We called this ages ago hun.

He'll stall and stall and gaslight to make you feel guilty for rushing him and afraid that if you pressure him too much, you'll lose him. Then the fallout will be YOUR fault. F that noise. 

At what point I wonder, will you learn that he doesn't care what you want? He only wants to further his agenda and do things his way. And now his wife is being a harpy, so he's got two women yelling in his ear, vying for his full attention.

Cut the tethers and find a better, available man.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I also believe he is not divorcing yet because he wants her as a back up plan if you don't work out. 

He is feeding her crumbs to keep her hanging on. A lot of WS do this as a ways to keep options open to go back. 

He WILL go back to her if you leave.

That's not someone I would want. You deserve better, his wife deserves better. 

There are so many fish in the sea that there is just 0 reason to put up with this BS. Find someone who fits you, don't try to make someone fit. Love is just not enough to make a relationship work.


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## Tigger

Sounds like he's having a mid life crisis or just a cheating cake eater. If he wanted to divorce her, he would have long ago. He likes things the way they are; a wife and a side chick.

I'm the wife in this situation and he's told his friends and his new side chick our marriage has been over and we've been separated for 2 years. Lies. 

We aren't living in the same house right now but we hang out in bed together and we talk every day. I'm not even worried about the side chick as they've never met and never will meet. 

You are wasting your time on this clod. If he wanted a divorce, he would have gotten one by now. Don't date married men and you wouldn't be in the mess you are in.


----------



## lynn11374

I talked to a girlfriend of mine last night and she is having a house built, and when it's ready for her and her partner to move in, she's putting her current place up for rent. It's in a another city about an hour and half from me, and it won't be ready until at least the end of Oct, and I'm considering it. I'll need to stay here until it's ready though, but I at least have a place to go near a friend.

I am also considering maybe buying a house up the street and putting the whole thing in my name, and with my money. That's probably the better situation for me financially, however it ties me to this area, and if we are no longer together anymore then I'm not sure I'd stay here. It's one of the few locations around here where you can buy a nice affordable home that's not in a slum. But his name will not be on the mortgage.

Either way I have options for moving out. I really do think he feels responsible for his wife's emotional state and I do really think he has every intention of divorcing her. From all the texts and emails I have read, there is not one reason to believe he's having any sexual relationship with her or that he wants one. I know that if she said she was ready to move forward, he would get things rolling in a heartbeat. He's allowing his guilt to take control. But I can't control him or his wife, only myself. I now have appealing options with regards to moving out so I feel better about having that leverage. going to look at the house tomorrow.


----------



## Magnesium

Well, at least you're seeing a little bit of the truth now....but clearly not all of it.

Of course, you're going to do whatever you do, but I would caution you against buying a home in the city near him. You'll be tied down to a city where he is your only source of emotional connection and that will keep you entrapped in his cycle of manipulation. Take that leap and go to that other city near your friend and start over. If he is the guy he claims he is, he will divorce his wife and come find you - and you will only be renting and not tied down. Just don't hold your breath ...and I will try not to say we told you so.

ETA: And if you were to buy a house in the same town, how long do you think it would take for him to finesse his way into living there....in YOUR house.....without being divorced, or anything changing? (This is rhetorical to the OP, because she still has one leg in LaLaLand.)


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## Openminded

He wants to "nice" her into a divorce. But the problem is that she will never let go and he will probably never file against her wishes. In the meantime, he expects you to wait around for something that's unlikely to happen. Don't. Move away -- even if it adds a month to your deadline. But for sure you need to get out as soon as you can because she's not giving in and he's apparently not acting unless it's mutual -- which it will never be.


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## turnera

Why don't you line up a marriage counselor appointment and tell him he's going with you? Let the counselor say what she thinks.


----------



## *Deidre*

lynn11374 said:


> I talked to a girlfriend of mine last night and she is having a house built, and when it's ready for her and her partner to move in, she's putting her current place up for rent. It's in a another city about an hour and half from me, and it won't be ready until at least the end of Oct, and I'm considering it. I'll need to stay here until it's ready though, but I at least have a place to go near a friend.
> 
> I am also considering maybe buying a house up the street and putting the whole thing in my name, and with my money. That's probably the better situation for me financially, however it ties me to this area, and if we are no longer together anymore then I'm not sure I'd stay here. It's one of the few locations around here where you can buy a nice affordable home that's not in a slum. But his name will not be on the mortgage.
> 
> Either way I have options for moving out. I really do think he feels responsible for his wife's emotional state and I do really think he has every intention of divorcing her. From all the texts and emails I have read, there is not one reason to believe he's having any sexual relationship with her or that he wants one. I know that if she said she was ready to move forward, he would get things rolling in a heartbeat. He's allowing his guilt to take control. But I can't control him or his wife, only myself. I now have appealing options with regards to moving out so I feel better about having that leverage. going to look at the house tomorrow.


Did he cheat on his wife?


----------



## Blondilocks

I have to hand it to his wife - she's quite the little puppet master. It'll be interesting to see who gets the better of who in this divorce.

Yes, he cheated on his wife with the op.


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## lucy999

Boy loooves his cake, doesnt he? Leave him. Rent, don't buy.


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## Malaise

lynn11374 said:


> Either way I have options for moving out. *I really do think he feels responsible for his wife's emotional state *and I do really think he has every intention of divorcing her. From all the texts and emails I have read, there is not one reason to believe he's having any sexual relationship with her or that he wants one. I know that if she said she was ready to move forward, he would get things rolling in a heartbeat. He's allowing his guilt to take control. But I can't control him or his wife, only myself. I now have appealing options with regards to moving out so I feel better about having that leverage. going to look at the house tomorrow.



Well, yes. He's cheating on her.


----------



## Livvie

I would not have a boyfriend who felt responsible for another woman's emotional state. Does this upset you?


----------



## wringo123

Livvie said:


> I would not have a boyfriend who felt responsible for another woman's emotional state. Does this upset you?


Apparently he's not so concerned with her emotional state that he's worried about openly living with someone else. He's talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


----------



## lynn11374

That's basically it, he feels tremendous guilt for the way he went about things and being in another relationship. So he feels the least he can do is give her the time she needs in the divorce.


----------



## turnera

There have been women on this forum who have "waited" over 6 years for their husband to give up his affair partner and return to them.


----------



## Openminded

lynn11374 said:


> That's basically it, he feels tremendous guilt for the way he went about things and being in another relationship. So he feels the least he can do is give her the time she needs in the divorce.


And what is his plan if she never agrees? Because she may not. She might feel she has no life without him so she'll just keep hoping he'll come back (and that happens often enough to feed that hope of hers).


----------



## Livvie

lynn11374 said:


> That's basically it, he feels tremendous guilt for the way he went about things and being in another relationship. So he feels the least he can do is give her the time she needs in the divorce.


I just don't understand. The KIND act would be to firmly push the divorce forward. If...if if if he is never going to go back to a relationship with her, it's actually abusive to drag the termination on so long. It's hurting her, not helping her. An honorable man would kindly but firmly get the divorce done, so she can heal, move on to something new in her life. I believe there are some honorable men who post regularly on this forum who would agree. Men: do you agree?


----------



## honcho

lynn11374 said:


> That's basically it, he feels tremendous guilt for the way he went about things and being in another relationship. So he feels the least he can do is give her the time she needs in the divorce.


This is what you want to believe and what he says but it simply isn't true. It's lip service. He's giving her time is more torment than caring and he's hoping to wear her down to get a better deal on the money end. If he felt guilt he would cut her a favorable deal for her and file for divorce. He's also avoiding divorce because once he does he's gonna have to take your relationship to a new level and he's happy with the status quo.


----------



## turnera

Rude much?


----------



## Rubix Cubed

turnera said:


> Rude much?


 Sounds triggered ... fully.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Moderator warning:

Name calling is against forum rules. Those who can't abide by this will be taking a vacation from posting.


----------



## oldshirt

lynn11374 said:


> That's basically it, he feels tremendous guilt for the way he went about things and being in another relationship. So he feels the least he can do is give her the time she needs in the divorce.


It's the court's job to determine what needs to be accomplished and how much time is need to complete the divorce. 

That's not his concern. 

If he wants a divorce all he has to do is fill out and submit the paperwork and then do what the court says.


----------



## turnera

> If you are involved with a married man and believe it’s going somewhere, well think again. Married men are wily, wicked creatures. They will tell you everything and anything under the sun to make you believe that you have a future with them. When in fact, only 3% of philandering married men will leave their wives for their mistresses... this means that you have a 3% chance of“happy ending,” that’s a very slim chance.
> 
> Now, he may like you a lot or even love you, but not enough to leave his wife and kids. However, if ever you do end up together, there is an equally slimmer chance that he will be faithful with you, as the saying goes, “if he cheats with you, he will cheat on you.”
> 
> In spite of all these seemed impossible chances of having a future with married men, why are there still so many gullible women who still believe them? I guess one of the possible reasons is that they are unaware of the lies married men tell.
> 
> Men can tell a whole lot of lies just to keep you hanging around, if you hear one or more of these lies, it’s time to turn away.
> 
> * “I don’t love my wife anymore.” This is one of the most common lies married men tell simply because there is no concrete way of proving this to you. You just have to take Pinocchio’s word for it. If he throws you this line, tell him to man- up, settle his rut before whoring around.
> 
> * “We’re only in the marriage for the children.” This is the perfect excuse married men tell, because somehow it triggers the sympathy factor- a noble act of giving-up his own happiness for the children’s sake. This is all trash, if he is really a good father as he is trying to imply, then he should be at home, trying to be a good role model to his children and making things right with his children's mother rather than trying to get to bed with you.
> 
> * “We’re not having sex anymore.” Or “We’re not sleeping together for a long time.” Then there must be a good reason, and if things are that bad at home, then why is he still there? If he is trying to work on his lousy marriage, then why is he being smooth with you? It just does not add up. Do not fall it.
> 
> * “We really want a divorce, but we can’t afford it.” Married men who use this line must be from, “Loserville.” He cannot afford a divorce, but he can afford to have an affair with you. You must be as stupid as he is to fall for this line.
> 
> * “I’m leaving her soon.” Or “I’m leaving her as soon as...” Usually, married men use this line when they sense that you are slowly pulling away. Remember, if he wanted to leave his wife, he could have done it way back when he realized their marriage is not working.
> 
> Married men are bored and they need distractions; they want someone who can ease up their tensions. They are not looking for relationships; they are not looking for “you and me forever,” they just want someone to play around with, at the end of the day; they go home to the people that matters to their life, and that is not you.


Lies Married Men Tell


----------



## Satya

turnera said:


> Lies Married Men Tell


I think we've had a woman here posting her situation in regard to every single one of those excuses. The most often one I see personally is "we no longer have sex." I know of at least one wife who posted here... I think it was here, ages ago, and said she found a text her husband had sent to his AP complaining about lack of sex, and they had sex like every other day. Ugh.


----------



## Andy1001

Satya said:


> I think we've had a woman here posting her situation in regard to every single one of those excuses. The most often one I see personally is "we no longer have sex." I know of at least one wife who posted here... I think it was here, ages ago, and said she found a text her husband had sent to his AP complaining about lack of sex, and they had sex like every other day. Ugh.


This story was on a forum a few months ago,I'm not sure if it was tam.
Basically a guy had a long term affair with a woman who he kept reassuring that he was going to leave his wife.Unbeknownst to his affair partner he actually left and divorced his wife and married again!
His answer to his buddy's questioning him was that the affair partner had shown she was willing to hang around indefinitely and while she was ok as a **** buddy she wasn't wife material.


----------



## lynn11374

We had a really long talk the other night. He reassured me he will be getting divorced, he still harbors lots of guilt for entering her life and then leaving it. She is a good person, but broken and unable to connect with people, he said. He thought he could basically fix her, and realized halfway through the marriage he couldn't. She just couldn't provide him what he needed. He is pushing her repeatedly about going over separation of assets and finances. her eye surgery has been rescheduled into October and the thought of dividing up finances is adding pain and stress to her already stressful health situation. She is now agreeing to work with him to split things up but wants to get through the surgery first. She is still very depressed and my bf said he has enough compassion to at least try to work with her and give her what she's asking in terms of getting through the surgery. I know some will say to just file and let the courts decide, but that's not how I did my own divorce so why should I insist on that for him? In fact the judge at my divorce was telling everyone to avoid contested divorces in this state, whenever possible. 

He explained to me that he has completely integrated me into his life - I've been part of every family event, we've had dinners over houses of his friends who knew his wife, which was initially awkward for him. The only thing outstanding is paperwork, and he just needs me to put my trust in him that what he's doing is the best way. He doesn't want to do something that doesn't feel right and then resent me for it. 

This is not to say I am going to keep waiting, I still have options and right now I feel empowered by them. If I decide I've had enough, then I will leave.


----------



## lynn11374

Satya said:


> I think we've had a woman here posting her situation in regard to every single one of those excuses. The most often one I see personally is "we no longer have sex." I know of at least one wife who posted here... I think it was here, ages ago, and said she found a text her husband had sent to his AP complaining about lack of sex, and they had sex like every other day. Ugh.


I've read text messages where he is telling her the "once a month sex" was one of the issues despite frequent discussions about it including marital counseling. She did not deny it, only said "I'm sorry, I was so stupid, I promise it will be better now"


----------



## Andy1001

lynn11374 said:


> We had a really long talk the other night. He reassured me he will be getting divorced, he still harbors lots of guilt for entering her life and then leaving it. She is a good person, but broken and unable to connect with people, he said. He thought he could basically fix her, and realized halfway through the marriage he couldn't. She just couldn't provide him what he needed. He is pushing her repeatedly about going over separation of assets and finances. her eye surgery has been rescheduled into October and the thought of dividing up finances is adding pain and stress to her already stressful health situation. She is now agreeing to work with him to split things up but wants to get through the surgery first. She is still very depressed and my bf said he has enough compassion to at least try to work with her and give her what she's asking in terms of getting through the surgery. I know some will say to just file and let the courts decide, but that's not how I did my own divorce so why should I insist on that for him? In fact the judge at my divorce was telling everyone to avoid contested divorces in this state, whenever possible.
> 
> He explained to me that he has completely integrated me into his life - I've been part of every family event, we've had dinners over houses of his friends who knew his wife, which was initially awkward for him. The only thing outstanding is paperwork, and he just needs me to put my trust in him that what he's doing is the best way. He doesn't want to do something that doesn't feel right and then resent me for it.
> 
> This is not to say I am going to keep waiting, I still have options and right now I feel empowered by them. If I decide I've had enough, then I will leave.


I am in no way trying to offend you here.Check out how many men that when they finally divorce their wives also kick the side chick to the kerb.
Their attitude is if they could have the side piece while they were still married,imagine the hot woman they can pull as a single man.
Then re read your last post.


----------



## lynn11374

Livvie said:


> I just don't understand. The KIND act would be to firmly push the divorce forward. If...if if if he is never going to go back to a relationship with her, it's actually abusive to drag the termination on so long. It's hurting her, not helping her. An honorable man would kindly but firmly get the divorce done, so she can heal, move on to something new in her life. I believe there are some honorable men who post regularly on this forum who would agree. Men: do you agree?


I brought this up to him, and he said normally he would agree, but I don't know her. She's not normal and doesn't handle and react to things the way most people do which is why he left.


----------



## lynn11374

Andy1001 said:


> I am in no way trying to offend you here.Check out how many men that when they finally divorce their wives also kick the side chick to the kerb.
> Their attitude is if they could have the side piece while they were still married,imagine the hot woman they can pull as a single man.
> Then re read your last post.


I understand why you would say that. But quite honestly I think I'm the best he's going to get, married or divorced, and he knows it. Not to sound like I'm full of myself, but every guy I've met on OLD has told I am the hottest woman they've come across and even the women who look good in pics are older and heavier in person. In addition I have a post-graduate degree, stable career with a good salary, no kids, no baggage, compassionate, cultured, loving and emotionally normal. He is good looking for 45, but not some millionaire or someone with a high social status who's going to snag a hot 20-something. His wife is average looking in her most flattering pictures and he didn't care about that, he's not superficial.


----------



## samyeagar

lynn11374 said:


> I understand why you would say that. But quite honestly I think I'm the best he's going to get, married or divorced, and he knows it. Not to sound like I'm full of myself, but every guy I've met on OLD has told *I am the hottest woman they've come across* and even the women who look good in pics are older and heavier in person. In addition *I have a post-graduate degree, stable career with a good salary, no kids, no baggage, compassionate, cultured, loving and emotionally normal.* He is good looking for 45, but not some millionaire or someone with a high social status who's going to snag a hot 20-something. His wife is average looking in her most flattering pictures and he didn't care about that, he's not superficial.


So how is it that you find yourself in this predicament?


----------



## lynn11374

samyeagar said:


> So how is it that you find yourself in this predicament?


I knew someone was going to ask that. It's because it's what I chose. This is the guy I'm in love with. He's my match in almost every way. It would be so much easier if it was one of those single guys, but it's not. I tried dating other guys and I just couldn't bare to have sex with them, something or another kept turning me off.


----------



## NobodySpecial

lynn11374 said:


> I knew someone was going to ask that. It's because it's what I chose. This is the guy I'm in love with. He's my match in almost every way. It would be so much easier if it was one of those single guys, but it's not. I tried dating other guys and I just couldn't bare to have sex with them, something or another kept turning me off.


Like they were actually available? Just saying. And I do actually mean it. It is pretty common to self sabotage in that way.


----------



## Melrose8888

I can't stand this anymore.

I'm out.

Good luck Lynn - you're going to need it.


----------



## lynn11374

NobodySpecial said:


> Like they were actually available? Just saying. And I do actually mean it. It is pretty common to self sabotage in that way.



It was pretty clear why they were available. But anyway, both bf and I were technically "unavailable" when we met. My ex H made starting the divorce process easy, he wanted it. I honestly have no idea how I would have proceeded if I thought every step would cause him unbearable pain. I very well may have given into his requests, I don't know.

that's why I can't tell him he should just push. If I don't see action taking place I'm just going to have to leave.


----------



## lynn11374

Melrose8888 said:


> I can't stand this anymore.
> 
> I'm out.
> 
> Good luck Lynn - you're going to need it.


Sorry to see this, I have found value in some of your posts. I actually really hesitated posting this update.


----------



## Blondilocks

What? There was an update? All I saw was SSDD.


----------



## Primrose

I do want the best for you. I want you to be happy in your relationship, but you need to prepare yourself for how you will handle his next excuse. First will be the surgery, and then will be the recovery. Then the recovery will be lengthened because, of course, she will have complications, etc.


----------



## Affaircare

... don't forget the UTI, caused by "the stress" of having to face reality!
@lynn11374, 

A divorce is like separating conjoined twins. You are literally cutting off a part of yourself and a part of your "twin." Yes, it's wise to plan the separation surgery and prepare so the twins are as medically ready as possible, but when the time comes to actually cut, you don't use a butter knife hoping that a dull knife would hurt less because it's not as sharp. You use the sharpest blade possible, and you CUT!

I get it. He's saying that he's trying to be compassionate, etc. toward the delicate condition of his ex-wife...all while NOT being compassionate for you! He is trying to amputate using a butter knife. That will take MUCH longer and hurt MUCH worse!

Here is your reality: he is willing to hurt you over and over in an ongoing way so that he doesn't hurt another woman. I don't care who that other woman is, that means you are #2 (at best). And you are afraid to leave him and be on your own. "He may not pick me!" He already has not picked you!

The wisest thing you could do right now--today--is arrange for your own residence (rent or own or whatever), pack your things, and take a step back. YOU are a person of value and worth, and you deserve someone who is willing to make you the ONLY priority, who is willing to give you "the whole feast" rather than delicious little crumbs, and who is AVAILABLE to give his all to you. So get your own place. Give him time to work out his life. Wait IF YOU WANT. But disentangle while he is still tangled. 

You said you'd give him until October to do something toward divorce, and he has not. Now the question is not about him at all--we are all crystal clear about him. The question now is about YOU--do you honor and value yourself enough to only accept a partner who is fully available to you and you alone? That is the question!


----------



## Diana7

I agree with the posters who said that you need to move out and take a step back. There will always be an excuse, and while you accept that it will never end. I personally wouldnt move back in until the divorce is ended and he has no more need to see her or have contact with her.


----------



## lynn11374

Primrose said:


> I do want the best for you. I want you to be happy in your relationship, but you need to prepare yourself for how you will handle his next excuse. First will be the surgery, and then will be the recovery. Then the recovery will be lengthened because, of course, she will have complications, etc.


And yesterday I was told her stepfather just died, so now that will be thrown into the mix of obstacles I'm sure.


----------



## NobodySpecial

lynn11374 said:


> And yesterday I was told her stepfather just died, so now that will be thrown into the mix of obstacles I'm sure.


How long are you even going to believe this BS? I mean, that is as concerning as whatever with this guy.


----------



## Livvie

lynn11374 said:


> Primrose said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do want the best for you. I want you to be happy in your relationship, but you need to prepare yourself for how you will handle his next excuse. First will be the surgery, and then will be the recovery. Then the recovery will be lengthened because, of course, she will have complications, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> And yesterday I was told her stepfather just died, so now that will be thrown into the mix of obstacles I'm sure.
Click to expand...

Wow, he seems to be in constant contact with his wife. And, they DON'T HAVE KIDS together. 

That would never fly with me, not for one second. You are choosing to remain in this love triangle, and that is truly what this is.


----------



## lynn11374

Livvie said:


> Wow, he seems to be in constant contact with his wife. And, they DON'T HAVE KIDS together.
> 
> That would never fly with me, not for one second. You are choosing to remain in this love triangle, and that is truly what this is.


He is still facebook friends with her half-sister, that's how he found out. He wanted to send flowers to the funeral home. I asked him if he or his wife was close to him and he said no, but the half-sister is. I told him I thought sending flowers is inappropriate.


----------



## Andy1001

lynn11374 said:


> And yesterday I was told her stepfather just died, so now that will be thrown into the mix of obstacles I'm sure.


 @lynn11374 again I am not trying to offend you but if you were standing in front of me I would be shaking you to try and clear this pea soup thick mist that seems to have enveloped you.
There will probably be a mourning process now,followed by another infection or illness and by the sound of your last posts you have resigned yourself to this interminable wait.He is not going to divorce until he is good and ready and that may be never.
Think about that.HE MAY NEVER DIVORCE.Why should he,he has a wife who will take him back anytime and a side piece who believes everything he tells her.
Is that what you envisioned when you were getting your post grad and building your career,developing your caring compassionate personality 
That you would end up some married dudes sidepiece.


----------



## lynn11374

Andy1001 said:


> @lynn11374 again I am not trying to offend you but if you were standing in front of me I would be shaking you to try and clear this pea soup thick mist that seems to have enveloped you.
> There will probably be a mourning process now,followed by another infection or illness and by the sound of your last posts you have resigned yourself to this interminable wait.He is not going to divorce until he is good and ready and that may be never.
> Think about that.HE MAY NEVER DIVORCE.Why should he,he has a wife who will take him back anytime and a side piece who believes everything he tells her.
> Is that what you envisioned when you were getting your post grad and building your career,developing your caring compassionate personality
> That you would end up some married dudes sidepiece.


It really isn't what I envisioned actually. It's hard to see myself as a sidepiece when I'm the one at all his family events and the one he spends every moment with. But I get what you are saying, it's going to drag on for a really long time. As soon as my friend moves into her new house and her apartment is available for rent, I will see where things are at with him. If there are more excuses, I'm out.


----------



## samyeagar

lynn11374 said:


> It really isn't what I envisioned actually. It's hard to see myself as a sidepiece when I'm the one at all his family events and the one he spends every moment with. But I get what you are saying, it's going to drag on for a really long time. As soon as my friend moves into her new house and her apartment is available for rent, I will see where things are at with him. If there are more excuses, I'm out.


Just like Labor Day, and then just like October 1? Once you rent the house, are you going to let him live there at least on a part time basis?


----------



## lynn11374

samyeagar said:


> Just like Labor Day, and then just like October 1? Once you rent the house, are you going to let him live there at least on a part time basis?


It will be an hour and a half away in another city, so he won't be able to live there. He will have to either get his own place, stay with his mom, or live in the house he co-owns with his wife.


----------



## lucy999

lynn11374 said:


> And yesterday I was told her stepfather just died, so now that will be thrown into the mix of obstacles I'm sure.


Y-A-W-N.

It'll be one thing after the other I'm sure. But you know this. 

It is really unfortunate that he can show compassion to his soon-to-be ex-wife (and I'm laughing at the "soon"part- honey, it ain't ever going to happen),but not show compassion to you. What a shame.


----------



## lifeistooshort

This gets more and more ridiculous every time you post an update.

Lynn, I'm a big advocate of making whatever decision you want as long as your eyes are open. You certainly don't have to justify your decision to stay with this guy.

Just get your head out of the sand and face the fact that this guy is full of ****..... he doesn't want a divorce. Period. He's got it made right where he is. 

If what you're getting from him makes up for that then fine, carry on. Just understand full well what you're dealing with. 

He's married and you are his side piece. If something happens to him you are not his wife..... you won't be able to see him and all of his assets will go to his wife. In the eyes of the law you're nothing.

If you want to continue because you're "in love" with him that's your business. As we're close in age I'd expect more from you, but whatever.

If he means that much just carry on with the understanding that you're his side piece and nothing more. That at least might keep you from doing anything really stupid like buying a house with him or comingling money. 

And understand that if his wife either dies or divorces him you'll probably be out. He'll have many options once he's free, but fewer women would put up with this.


----------



## turnera

lynn11374 said:


> If there are more excuses, I'm out.


Have you flat out told HIM that?


----------



## Diana7

The step father's death will be yet another excuse, and after that there will be something else. Does she not have family or friends of her own?
I would leave until the divorce is either well under way or complete. Until ALL contact has stopped. Right now you are enabling his behaviour. 
I met my husband when he was getting divorced, but it was underway when we met(his wife had met someone else) and we didn't live together.


----------



## lifeistooshort

turnera said:


> Have you flat out told HIM that?


 normally I'd ageee, but in this case I wouldn't tell him anything. It'll just incent him to either lie or spin the next story.

Just observe and when he bull****s then bolt.


----------



## *Deidre*

This guy lynn reminds me of a narcissist I dated in the past. Your entire relationship is about him, and only him. It will always be about him, even after the wife is out of the picture (which I don't think will ever happen) You will always be sharing this guy with someone else, something else...he will never be focused on the relationship. Why? Because you have taught him that he doesn't have to care about you, and you'll still stay and sleep with him.

Actions always speak louder than words. At this point, I have to question why you are staying, and it's less about him and more about your need to have a jerk in your life. I don't care if he brings you to ''events,'' that's just to keep you locked in. He has to give you the idea that you matter, but if you did...he'd be on his way to a divorce. 

I actually think he still loves his wife. I won't say soon to be ex wife, because I don't think that is the right label for her. I think that is reality and he has you now, and didn't expect to still feel for her. Maybe their marriage was bad, but maybe she has begged and pleaded enough that he wonders what if ...

I think you should let him go.


----------



## turnera

lifeistooshort said:


> normally I'd ageee, but in this case I wouldn't tell him anything. It'll just incent him you either lie or spin the next story.
> 
> Just observe and when he bull****s then bolt.


I think she's too entrenched with him mentally to be able to just walk away like that without giving him every last chance. And it looks like it will take about a dozen of those last chances before she leaves.


----------



## turnera

Did she leave him or did he leave her?


----------



## MJJEAN

turnera said:


> Did she leave him or did he leave her?


IIRC, he was living with his wife, having a thing on the side with OP, then left his wife to move in with OP and here we are.


----------



## lifeistooshort

turnera said:


> I think she's too entrenched with him mentally to be able to just walk away like that without giving him every last chance. And it looks like it will take about a dozen of those last chances before she leaves.


Unfortunately you're probably right. 

Just goes to show what you get when you get involved with a cheater.


----------



## Blondilocks

Lynn, do not renew the lease with him. Do this one thing for yourself. Please.


----------



## ILoveSparkles

OP,

You realize that your boyfriends wife is the puppet master over your relationship right? She has complete control over everything and everyone. She knows exactly what she's doing and she's loving it.

Even if they divorce, I suspect that they will still be in close contact like they are now. Even if there is a divorce paper separating them legally, it means nothing relationship wise.

You will always be 2nd to his wife even if they divorce. Is that how you want to live?


----------



## MattMatt

ILoveSparkles said:


> OP,
> 
> You realize that your boyfriends wife is the puppet master over your relationship right? She has complete control over everything and everyone. She knows exactly what she's doing and she's loving it.
> 
> Even if they divorce, I suspect that they will still be in close contact like they are now. Even if there is a divorce paper separating them legally, it means nothing relationship wise.
> 
> You will always be 2nd to his wife even if they divorce. Is that how you want to live?


Really? I think it is like that the boyfriend is the puppet master, using his wife as a sort of ventriloquist's dummy.

That way, everything is _her_ fault, her responsibility, and nothing to do with him. 

How it works is this: Every time he has to let Lynne down, why, it isn't _his_ fault! It's the wife/dummy who makes him do it!


----------



## Adelais

MattMatt said:


> Really? I think it is like that the boyfriend is the puppet master, using his wife as a sort of ventriloquist's dummy.
> 
> That way, everything is _her_ fault, her responsibility, and nothing to do with him.
> 
> How it works is this: Every time he has to let Lynne down, why, it isn't _his_ fault! It's the wife/dummy who makes him do it!


Lynn, consider what MattMatt said.

I believe that if you respected yourself more, you would say, "I don't deserve to be a side piece, and be treated this way," and you would tell him the same thing, and you would leave immediately.

If he loved you so much, he would be desperate to not lose you, and he would quickly push through the divorce and come find you, hoping that it is not too late.

Are you afraid that if you stand up for yourself (because it is painfully obvious that your BF won't put you first) that he will just shrug his shoulders and let you go, never to come looking for you? I believe that is why you don't leave, because you aren't confident he loves you enough to come for you when he is done with his wife.

If you were able to go all the way back to the beginning with what you know now, would you have begun a relationship with him? 

If your answer is yes, then stop complaining.

If your answer is no, what would you have told him as your reason for not dating him? Tell him that today and end the relationship that shouldn't have started in the first place. 

He was not honest with you from the very beginning, so you would date him. Wise up!


----------



## *Deidre*

In thinking about it, I'm feeling like the husband and wife here are still in love with each other, and they've probably had this incredibly dysfunctional dynamic for years. I think that the husband left his wife because he had enough of the head games, and the dysfunction, found lynn, and thought that he was ready to move on, but it sounds like he's not ready. And that's not his wife's fault. That's his doing, and it's because he's not over her, yet. No guy who really moved on would keep putting up with this. So, I'm betting that these two still are into each other, and dysfunction is just part of their dynamic, and if he ever divorces this woman, she will always be in his life, in some form. 

Lynn, you can do way better. You're really just lost in an affair at this point, with a guy who keep trying to convince you that you're not.


----------



## Malaise

I'll say it again: If he really wanted it, he'd be divorced.


----------



## Primrose

Malaise said:


> I'll say it again: If he really wanted it, he'd be divorced.


Yes, and why give up your cake eating when your girlfriend has shown she can be manipulated time and time again? All he needs is an excuse and an accusation ("if you really loved me"...) and Lynn's resolve crumbles.


----------



## turnera

Lynn, have you looked up gaslighting yet?


----------



## Diana7

MJJEAN said:


> IIRC, he was living with his wife, having a thing on the side with OP, then left his wife to move in with OP and here we are.


Relationships that begin with cheating nearly always end badly.


----------



## ILoveSparkles

MattMatt said:


> Really? I think it is like that the boyfriend is the puppet master, using his wife as a sort of ventriloquist's dummy.
> 
> That way, everything is _her_ fault, her responsibility, and nothing to do with him.
> 
> How it works is this: Every time he has to let Lynne down, why, it isn't _his_ fault! It's the wife/dummy who makes him do it!



Either way, this "three-way" if you will is extremely toxic for everyone involved. I feel bad for OP, because ultimately things are going crash and burn around her. I really hope she can see what we all see - sooner rather than later.


----------



## Openminded

My opinion? His wife will never give up and his guilt (or whatever the true reason is) is stronger than his love for you. Maybe at some point he will divorce her. Maybe he won't. 

You've given yourself another deadline. Keep it.


----------



## lynn11374

Yep, the step father dying has produced another delay. He asked her to start the process of splitting things and she snapped back at him at how insensitive to push something like that when someone just died. 

we talked a lot this weekend. For the first time I felt like we were trying to understand one another without simply defending our positions and attacking. I can tell he wants a future with me and I do believe if I walked out the door today that he would do what he needed to do to keep me. But if he did that, the divorce would turn ugly and maybe he would resent me for it. He expressed how important it is to him for this to be as amicable as possible, and wants to know he tried everything first and wants my support, within reason. Within reason means that future illnesses, infections or recoveries are not acceptable excuses, he has agreed. as @LifeIsShort said, I will observe and if it's not happening then I leave.

I don't think his guilt and concern for her has anything to do with romantic love. he said he married her because he thought he could help her. He talks about her like she's a a niece whose parents died and he took responsibility for her development and well being. In a sense that's how he always saw her. He said part of why he married her was he thought he could help her, but eventually realized she wasn't going to change and didn't have the tools to give him what he needed.


----------



## Diana7

lynn11374 said:


> Yep, the step father dying has produced another delay. He asked her to start the process of splitting things and she snapped back at him at how insensitive to push something like that when someone just died.
> 
> we talked a lot this weekend. For the first time I felt like we were trying to understand one another without simply defending our positions and attacking. I can tell he wants a future with me and I do believe if I walked out the door today that he would do what he needed to do to keep me. But if he did that, the divorce would turn ugly and maybe he would resent me for it. He expressed how important it is to him for this to be as amicable as possible, and wants to know he tried everything first and wants my support, within reason. Within reason means that future illnesses, infections or recoveries are not acceptable excuses, he has agreed. as @LifeIsShort said, I will observe and if it's not happening then I leave.
> 
> I don't think his guilt and concern for her has anything to do with romantic love. he said he married her because he thought he could help her. He talks about her like she's a a niece whose parents died and he took responsibility for her development and well being. In a sense that's how he always saw her. He said part of why he married her was he thought he could help her, but eventually realized she wasn't going to change and didn't have the tools to give him what he needed.


Don't you see that there will always be an excuse? How long with this one last? 3 months? 6 months? Then it will be something else. Surely you know that?

I would say, ok, you take you time and do what you think is right, but in the meantime I will move out and get on with my life. If I am still free when the divorce is complete, then contact me, and maybe we can date again. Then leave the ball in his court. No pressure from you, but a clear boundary set.


----------



## 5Creed

I think his divorce is going to turn ugly no matter what. They are still so entangled up in each other. He could resent you for it; but it has nothing to do with you. It is his involvement still with his wife and he for some reason feels so responsible for her still.


----------



## Blondilocks

He has you believing that you can help him control the outcome of his divorce. In fact, he has you sharing in the responsibility of the outcome. How manipulative is that? 

Neither of you are in control of this crapfest.


----------



## Malaise

Blondilocks said:


> He has you believing that you can help him control the outcome of his divorce. In fact, he has you sharing in the responsibility of the outcome. How manipulative is that?
> 
> Neither of you are in control of this crapfest.


Slight difference of opinion here: The only one in control is OP. She can always leave him.

That he's a manipulator par excellence is certain. The W is no slouch either.

OP he will never be free of her, even in the event of a divorce.


----------



## Primrose

Lynn, he tells you the same thing every time you both sit down and have this discussion. He's "trying to be empathetic to her." "I thought you admired this quality in me?" "No more excuses (after this current excuse runs its course)". Maybe he throws in some different words in each discussion, but the outcome has been the same the past how many months? 

The only way anything is going to change is if you put a stop to this. There is absolutely zero reason he should still be married to this woman. Why do you keep allowing this? And let's be clear that the only reason this continues is because you allow it.


----------



## jsmart

How long were they married? Do they have kids together? 

What caused him to leave was not lack of love but lack of sex. Doesn't mean he doesn't have deep feelings for you but it's obvious that he hasn't divorced because he still has love for her in his heart. Not friend or sisterly love but wife love.

You rushed into another relationship before you were even divorced. You needed time alone to mourn the death of your marriage. Learn to once again be an independent woman. Instead you've pulled up stakes, uprooting your life and put your whole lot in with this guy. 

I'm sure after being in a super low sex marriage, he must be smitten by you with all the sex I'm sure you 2 are having but even with the hot sex with a new partner, he can't pulled the switch on the D. Why is that? Once again, I think it's because he still loves her.


----------



## Yvophi

If he isn't divorcing by now, then it m and he is not leaving his wife. Why would he need to? He is dabbling with another woman but still has his option to go back to his wife. In addition to that, why get involved with someone who has not completely dissolved their marriage? Would you want to be with someone who is complete and whole and not in between relationships? I just think woman should value themselves more and realize their worth. You can get involved with someone who is more stable and confident of his needs.


----------



## Annie123

Any updates, Lynn?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## lynn11374

Hi all, wanted to provide an update. He has been separating finances with the wife and went to the courthouse to pick up the divorce papers. As I mentioned before, he really wanted to buy a house. I said if we found a house we really wanted, I would agree to buy it and put it in my name while waiting for his divorce to finalize with the expectation he would be filed by the time of closing. That would give me control over the house and would not drag me into his divorce. I made him show me all his bank and credit card accounts for proof things were separated. So I went ahead and signed the contract for the house. I started having reservations about everything and decided to back out the night before the inspection. Cancelled the inspection and the contract. He was really upset with me that after all that I changed my mind and cancelled. He is barely speaking to me and says he doesn't want to go to my sisters's for Thanksgiving (2 hour drive). He probably will hold off on filing now because of this. So there really is no update as he has not filed and now we are not speaking to each other.


----------



## Diana7

Good grief, he is really not helping himself is he. You did the right thing, don't buy a home until he is divorced is my advise. Also move out until you have seen the court papers saying he is divorced. 
Then you will see what his intentions are.


----------



## turnera

Sorry, but honestly, that's what needed to happen. And you knew it in your gut. That's why you backed out. This isn't the way a relationship is supposed to go.

And going to your sister's by yourself is a good thing. It will force you to face what you really have. And maybe your family can show you how valuable you are so you can approach the whole situation with self-love and high expectations.


----------



## Livvie

Amazing. He sure knows how to let YOU know when he's displeased: he isn't speaking to you and won't participate in Thanksgiving with you because you wouldn't buy a house in your name only-- ehhh because he is still MARRIED.

Let that be a lesson to you. I think you should take a page from the lesson book, and since this man still hasn't actually FILED for divorce yet, stop participating in HIS life until his divorce is final.


----------



## Primrose

Oh, the irony at how angry he gets with you when YOU back out on a promise.. yet he continuously does this to you regarding filing for divorce.


----------



## lynn11374

it's not that I wouldn't buy the house, but that I was wishy washy instead of clearly communicating I didn't want it from the beginning. I needed time to think about it and this was my decision in the end.


----------



## turnera

If you didn't want it from the beginning, how did you end up with a contract in front of you?

Think about it.


----------



## wringo123

lynn11374 said:


> it's not that I wouldn't buy the house, but that I was wishy washy instead of clearly communicating I didn't want it from the beginning. I needed time to think about it and this was my decision in the end.


*He's mad at you for being wishy-washy?*

Don't you see the double standard here? Tell him you backed out because the seller had the hiccups and it wasn't fair to make him move during such a dire crisis.


----------



## lynn11374

Yes i certainly do see the irony, although he would never see it that way. He is saying he will be fostering cats in our apartment over thanksgiving. I told him it's fine with me and to enjoy his time with them, and I'll be at my sisters.


----------



## Rob_1

Male here. As a man I can tell you that "almost" any man in this world that is "in love" and really, really want his woman would do anything ASAP to end any previous relationship to be with the woman he loves.

Having said that, your guy already has you living with him so, he is not that motivated, nor can be that deep in love with you to end his marriage right away. His actions not his words tells you all what you need to know about how committed he really is to you.

My advice to you: separate. Have your own place. What he does after you stop cohabiting with him will tell you everything as far as if you want to continue investing your time, life, and effort in this relationship.


----------



## Satya

Rob_1 said:


> Male here. As a man I can tell you that "almost" any man in this world that is "in love" and really, really want his woman would do anything ASAP to end any previous relationship to be with the woman he loves.
> 
> Having said that, your guy already has you living with him so, he is not that motivated, nor can be that deep in love with you to end his marriage right away. His actions not his words tells you all what you need to know about how committed he really is to you.
> 
> My advice to you: separate. Have your own place. What he does after you stop cohabiting with him will tell you everything as far as if you want to continue investing your time, life, and effort in this relationship.


We've all told Lynn this from the beginning but she's had to really learn this for herself.


----------



## Rob_1

@Satya: oh pitty then, I guess that love is blind.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Rob_1 said:


> @*Satya*: oh pitty then, I guess that love is blind.


And deaf and dumb as well, some say.


----------



## Diana7

Most us here can see exactly what you need to do but you refuse to do it. Nothing will change until you do.


----------



## frusdil

All of the above, if he wants you to behave like a wife, and for him to get all the perks of marriage, he can damn well put a ring on it!

Don't ever act like a wife, until you are in fact, a wife. Too many women do this, they give far too much of themselves and end up full of resentment when the timeline grinds to a screeching halt, while their man coasts along in perfect bliss, getting everything he wants with no committment whatsoever.

People who want to get divorced, get divorced.


----------



## Satya

frusdil said:


> Don't ever act like a wife, until you are in fact, a wife.


This is very wise and I think we've all been guilty of doing this at some point, Lynn. I know I have.


----------



## chillymorn69

What About This Man Do You Love So Much That You Would Put Up With all This/His Drama?

This is who he is and if he ever gets married he will do this to you.

I think you can do better. This drama has soured your relationship for the beginning.


----------



## Diana7

Satya said:


> This is very wise and I think we've all been guilty of doing this at some point, Lynn. I know I have.


Yes it is wise, and partly why I wouldn't live with a man until we are married.


----------



## SunCMars

Yes, she lived with a man, unmarried and was harried.
And if she does not act wise, at the end, she will be unwed when she is buried.


----------



## growing_weary

Hey is this still a thing? What happened to the October or whatever deadline?


----------



## MJJEAN

growing_weary said:


> Hey is this still a thing? What happened to the October or whatever deadline?


His ex stubbed her toe or something and he used it as an excuse.


----------



## Magnesium

MJJEAN said:


> His ex stubbed her toe or something and he used it as an excuse.


And she appears to have bought it ... again.

I would give her credit for not going ahead and buying a house FOR him, but that's kind of like praising someone for NOT committing crimes.


----------



## Anastasia6

Lynn thank you for the update. I know it must be hard when so many of us just don't think he's telling the truth.


----------



## Satya

lynn11374 said:


> Yes i certainly do see the irony, although he would never see it that way. He is saying he will be fostering cats in our apartment over thanksgiving. I told him it's fine with me and to enjoy his time with them, and I'll be at my sisters.


So @lynn11374, how was your Thanksgiving?

Any updates? We won't bite and we do worry about you.


----------



## MJJEAN

Satya said:


> So @lynn11374, how was your Thanksgiving?
> 
> Any updates? We won't bite and we do worry about you.


Seriously. We're a bit free with the blunt honesty, but only because we care.


----------



## lynn11374

I was in his car and found the divorce papers in a folder, partially filled out. I know it doesn't mean anything until it's filed, but it IS a step, along with the separation of accounts. I haven't brought up the topic since letting him know I changed my mind about the house.


----------



## lynn11374

*Re: boyfriend's inaction on divorce process - update!*

Hi Everyone,

It's been a while, but I wanted to share an update (finally a real update). *He has filed!! *

The paperwork required a lot of his wife's personal info that he didn't have such as her insurance info/ driver's license etc.. It took him a while to get it from her and she even took part in filling out the paperwork. After going through all this I do know that the delays, other than gathering the details, were primarily out of genuine concern for his wife's emotional and physical well being. 

And I went to the courthouse with him so I know it actually took place. 

I want to thank everyone for all their great advice. It was a big help for me to see this objectively.


----------



## Rob_1

Congratulations. You're on your way now.


----------



## Blondilocks

I hope your future turns out the way you envisioned.


----------



## Primrose

Best of luck to the both of you.


----------



## turnera

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but do you and he have an agreement that once the divorce is complete, he is to have no more contact with his exwife?


----------



## lucy999

Wow I didn't think he had it in him. This is good news. Good luck and congrats.


----------



## Diana7

I hope that he has agreed to cut off all contact once the divorce is over.


----------



## MJJEAN

I'm happy for you, @lynn11374. I hope it's smooth sailing for you.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: boyfriend's inaction on divorce process - update!*



lynn11374 said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> It's been a while, but I wanted to share an update (finally a real update). *He has filed!! *
> 
> The paperwork required a lot of his wife's personal info that he didn't have such as her insurance info/ driver's license etc.. It took him a while to get it from her and she even took part in filling out the paperwork. After going through all this I do know that the delays, other than gathering the details, were primarily out of genuine concern for his wife's emotional and physical well being.
> 
> And I went to the courthouse with him so I know it actually took place.
> 
> I want to thank everyone for all their great advice. It was a big help for me to see this objectively.


He had the divorce papers in his hand on Nov 21,that’s almost three months ago.He is still feeding you a line and you are grabbing at it.What’s the betting there is delay after delay to hold up the process.I do not trust this guy and I really hope you have no financial ties with him.
Like I told you months ago,check out the amount of guys who after getting divorced also ditch their affair partner.


----------



## Zanne

Well, it's progress! I'm happy for you, Lynn. As always, keep looking out for your own interests too.

As for me, things are also moving along with me and my boyfriend. My divorce was finalized in November 2017 and now that the holidays are over, he is back at negotiations with his STBXW. Currently I am his only counsel and so I'm reading her offers and giving him the filtered "nice" version (he hates any contact with her). Since I just went through my own divorce, I have some knowledge of the process and I do my best to advise him. But wow, things are getting heated! There is mutual desire to be done by June though, so there's an end in sight!

Wishing you all the best!


----------



## lynn11374

Hello all,

thought I would provide an update to anyone who remembers this thread (or doesn't!). My boyfriend's divorce was finalized in September. She finally agreed to sign the papers, and despite several desperate attempts she made to stall and delay the process after signing, he forged ahead with it. 

We bought a house together and our relationship is stronger than ever. The only concern that has come up recently is that I know he feels pity for her. She's had some fairly minor health problems but has not been able to manage her anxiety over it (was diagnosed with an ovarian cyst and just panics that it must be cancer). She has issues in general coping with life's challenges and managing her anxiety. Boyfriend wants to be friends with her, and said he would like to grab dinner with her one night but I'm not sure how I feel about it. I am friends with my ex H however I don't hang out with him if it's just the two of us, however I have spent time with my ex's family without my boyfriend included. Boyfriend's ex still is resentful of him ending the marriage and of course resentful that he is in a happy relationship with me. I do trust him entirely that he has no feelings for her other than wanting to be her friend, so should I NOT make a big deal about it?


----------



## Prodigal

lynn11374 said:


> The only concern that has come up recently is that I know he feels pity for her. She's had some fairly minor health problems but has not been able to manage her anxiety over it (was diagnosed with an ovarian cyst and just panics that it must be cancer). She has issues in general coping with life's challenges and managing her anxiety.


So tell her to get into counseling and perhaps find out if she needs medication for anxiety. Her problem(s) with coping with life is solely HER problem. She's an adult. I mean, c'mon, she is just letting your BF know all this so she can guilt him into remaining in contact. 



lynn11374 said:


> Boyfriend wants to be friends with her, and said he would like to grab dinner with her one night but I'm not sure how I feel about it.


So they're divorced, have no children, and he wants to be "friends" with her. Maybe you should explain to him that having this woman as a "friend" means she'll be in your lives forever.

Why don't you know how you feel about it? The reason I ask, particularly after all the crap she put you through, is because I'd be one step from kicking ass and taking names. NO, IT IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR YOUR BF TO BE BUDDY-BUDDY WITH HIS EX WIFE.

She is the proverbial pain in the ass and fly in the ointment. I hope this bf of yours is as dedicated to you as you believe. Because from my vantage point, it sounds like she still has a hold on him. No matter how tenuous. I sure as hell wouldn't tolerate this nonsense. They got divorced for a reason. That should be the END of that as in forever after. SERIOUSLY.


----------



## Beach123

lynn11374 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> thought I would provide an update to anyone who remembers this thread (or doesn't!). My boyfriend's divorce was finalized in September. She finally agreed to sign the papers, and despite several desperate attempts she made to stall and delay the process after signing, he forged ahead with it.
> 
> We bought a house together and our relationship is stronger than ever. The only concern that has come up recently is that I know he feels pity for her. She's had some fairly minor health problems but has not been able to manage her anxiety over it (was diagnosed with an ovarian cyst and just panics that it must be cancer). She has issues in general coping with life's challenges and managing her anxiety. Boyfriend wants to be friends with her, and said he would like to grab dinner with her one night but I'm not sure how I feel about it. I am friends with my ex H however I don't hang out with him if it's just the two of us, however I have spent time with my ex's family without my boyfriend included. Boyfriend's ex still is resentful of him ending the marriage and of course resentful that he is in a happy relationship with me. I do trust him entirely that he has no feelings for her other than wanting to be her friend, so should I NOT make a big deal about it?


I can tell you how you should feel about it... tell him NO! And if he goes - it’s over with you!

Draw a line! Have a boundary!

Sheez, why are you being so whimpy with him?

Tell him NO WAY!


----------



## lucy999

Sure, he can grab dinner with her one night. Tell him to make reservations for three. Him, you, and her.

Listen, there is ZERO reason why they should be in contact. No children, correct? 

If your husband has guilt over leaving her, he needs to deal with that in a way without involving his ex wife.


----------



## Helplesshub

Once separation papers are filed anything communion between him and his soon to be ex wife stops.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

We all know this guy is just going to continue pandering to her like he's done since the day he left her.

Ain't gonna change.

And the OP will continue to allow it like she always has.


----------



## Andy1001

So your boyfriend wants to go on a date with his ex wife.
How ****ing romantic.
After all the advice you got on this thread you’re still putting up with his bs and believe me it is bs.
Here is a completely outrageous idea. Why don’t you let her move in,you may as well.


----------



## Blondilocks

When you have to twist your boyfriend's arm to get him to file for divorce, you can expect this type of behavior.


----------



## lynn11374

To clarify, he talks to her her very infrequently. He checks in with her via text about once a week and asks how her doctors appointments are going so she’s not this daily presence in our lives. He offered once to go with her to the doctor so she wouldn’t feel so scared and alone as she does. He said it makes him sad to see this person that he cares about for 10 years to go through this downward spiral and wants her to be happy and catch a break. I really do believe he feels he’s doing the right thing by helping her, it just irritates me because whenever there is an interaction he is frustrated that she can’t get her sh!t together and it annoys me that he’s annoyed. And if I express that I come off sounding uncaring and heartless which is why I have not enforced this boundary.


----------



## Andy1001

lynn11374 said:


> To clarify, he talks to her her very infrequently. He checks in with her via text about once a week and asks how her doctors appointments are going so she’s not this daily presence in our lives. He offered once to go with her to the doctor so she wouldn’t feel so scared and alone as she does. He said it makes him sad to see this person that he cares about for 10 years to go through this downward spiral and wants her to be happy and catch a break. I really do believe he feels he’s doing the right thing by helping her, it just irritates me because whenever there is an interaction he is frustrated that she can’t get her sh!t together and it annoys me that he’s annoyed. And if I express that I come off sounding uncaring and heartless which is why I have not enforced this boundary.


Does he see himself as St Jude, the patron saint of lost causes? If you keep doing the same things you will keep getting the same results,and your reluctance to define boundaries is why you are back here. 
Ask yourself this. Is this man capable of making you feel truly happy and the most important person in his life? 
Because I don’t think he is.
He needs a “cause” to achieve self validation and his ability to gaslight you is unbelievable. I know of no other woman who would be happy about her live in boyfriend going on dates with his ex wife. And this is a date no matter that he convinces you otherwise. 
Please don’t put up with this anymore,you are an educated,obviously kind hearted woman and you deserve so much more than this.


----------



## turnera

IIWY, I would separate and tell him to call you up once she's out of his life. And see if you're still interested. I would also tell him to get therapy for his KISA need.


----------



## Prodigal

lynn11374 said:


> ... he talks to her her very infrequently. He checks in with her via text about once a week and asks how her doctors appointments are going so she’s not this daily presence in our lives.


So he texts her "about" once a week. For me, at least, once a week doesn't sound infrequent. Or, at least, not infrequent enough. 



lynn11374 said:


> He offered once to go with her to the doctor so she wouldn’t feel so scared and alone as she does.


What strikes me about this, is she's not nearly as scared and alone as she makes out. But it reels him and keeps him somewhat in her life. What I see here is a manipulative ex-wife playing the "Oh, poor helpless little me" role, your bf's lack of setting boundaries because he still feels he owes her something, and you willing to accept this crap.

Nobody seems to have healthy boundaries in this entire situation. I imagine it will eventually get a bit crowded having three people in this relationship. Sad to say, when you got him you got her as part of the deal too. Even if you don't see it that way. 



lynn11374 said:


> ... he is frustrated that she can’t get her sh!t together and it annoys me that he’s annoyed. And if I express that I come off sounding uncaring and heartless which is why I have not enforced this boundary.


Why should HE be frustrated about his ex's inability to get it together? That should no longer be his concern. THEY ARE DIVORCED. Your reason for no enforcing a boundary is an excuse, not a legitimate reason. Gawd, this silly woman has both of you convinced she's so damn helpless, you're both dancing to her tune. 

So your bf will think you're uncaring and heartless. Look, this is not a woman who is incapable of taking care of herself. In fact, she's doing a helluva job at keeping your bf involved in her life. What a mess.


----------



## lucy999

lynn11374 said:


> To clarify, he talks to her her very infrequently. He checks in with her via text about once a week and asks how her doctors appointments are going so she’s not this daily presence in our lives. He offered once to go with her to the doctor so she wouldn’t feel so scared and alone as she does. He said it makes him sad to see this person that he cares about for 10 years to go through this downward spiral and wants her to be happy and catch a break. I really do believe he feels he’s doing the right thing by helping her, it just irritates me because whenever there is an interaction he is frustrated that she can’t get her sh!t together and it annoys me that he’s annoyed. And if I express that I come off sounding uncaring and heartless which is why I have not enforced this boundary.


Once a week is not "very infrequently". I'm sorry to tell you this,but there will always be three people in your marriage. You, your husband, and his ex wife.


----------



## Livvie

I'd never stay with someone who was in touch with their needy ex (no kids together) on a weekly, or even monthly basis. No, no no no. 

Thinking about attending a medical appointment with her??

Over, now.

No way. That's me. I know you don't have the same boundaries I do, but it might be helpful to you, hearing about the kinds of boundaries other people have.


----------



## nekonamida

There are good friends of mine that I talk to considerably less than he does to his exwife. Once a week?!? That's insane! Offering to go to doctor's appointments and get dinner with her? Completely inappropriate given everything that has happened. 

Here's the thing about people who put other's feelings above their partners - he doesn't want to rock the boat with her but he has no problem causing you pain and discomfort for his exwife. His whole problem with the marriage was that he was being dragged down by her and now that he's divorced suddenly he's going right back to it? 

At absolute best he is a well meaning person who is hurting you by keeping a close relationship with her and hurting her by leading her on and giving her false hope by staying so involved in her life. At worst he knows this and is reconsidering his relationship with you because he might want to try again with her hence the dinner is a test to see if he really wants this or not. Regardless he is very selfish for putting his need to be Captain Save-a-hoe above both of your and her wellbeing. 

Honestly, you sound like you're in a bit of denial with how close they are. Once a week is no where near very infrequently. Very infrequently starts at a couple times a year. Once a month is regularly. This is beyond even that. I also think that you are confusing his reluctance to leave the relationship as being a sign of love. Of course he doesn't want you to leave. You said it yourself - you're a great catch and he couldn't do better even if he tried. Him talking about marriage was an obvious love bombing attempt when he felt you pulling away because he wasn't filing.

But the real question I have is, why do you think that you deserve less than a man who prioritizes you? You can have a sweet, caring man who puts you first. You don't have to settle for someone who has this level of baggage. So why do you do it?

My last thought to part with you is - this will never end. It's been 2 years and while he may have separated from her on paper, he's ramping up his emotional support of her and getting closer by proposing meeting up with her. Dropping her and focusing on you isn't even on his radar and it's exactly what he needs to do for you, for the relationship, and even for her so that she can learn to stand on her own two feet. 

And his response when you call him out on it is manipulative. He immediately turns it back on you. It's no different than what she would do to him every time he brought up the divorce with her. I'm not convinced that he will run off with her if given the chance and at worst I think he's flirting with the idea that maybe he moved too fast in divorcing her BUT his response to you when you bring up your concerns with behavior that would make others run for the hills gives me a huge pause when considering if he's really this amazing, caring, naive, stupid man who is completely oblivious to the destruction he's causing all around him to the two women he claims to care so much about.


----------



## MJJEAN

lynn11374 said:


> To clarify, he talks to her her very infrequently. He checks in with her via text about once a week and asks how her doctors appointments are going so she’s not this daily presence in our lives. He offered once to go with her to the doctor so she wouldn’t feel so scared and alone as she does. He said it makes him sad to see this person that he cares about for 10 years to go through this downward spiral and wants her to be happy and catch a break. I really do believe he feels he’s doing the right thing by helping her, it just irritates me because whenever there is an interaction he is frustrated that she can’t get her sh!t together and it annoys me that he’s annoyed. And if I express that I come off sounding uncaring and heartless which is why I have not enforced this boundary.


Checking in with his ex once a week via text is what I would consider frequent contact. 
My parents moved a lot when I was a kid, I can pack a house in less than 24 hrs. DH's stuff would be no sweat. If DH talked to his ex weekly via text and offered to go to medical appointments with her, I'd seriously pack up his stuff while he's at the doctors office and have it on her doorstep before he got back. 

If he actually cares for her and isn't just doing this stuff to make himself feel better then he needs to understand he is doing more harm than good. He thinks he's helping, but he's hindering. As long as he is there for her, as long as he's giving her attention and being her "rock" and "shoulder to lean on", she's going to A) milk it for all it's worth because she didn't want the divorce in the first place and will do whatever she can to keep him in her orbit and B) she will never, ever, ever, "get her **** straight" because his continued presence is literally incentive to continue to be a hot mess.

In other words, him actually moving on and breaking contact is best for all involved. Him, you, and her.

He's your boyfriend, not your husband. You can walk away at any time for any reason. This would be the hill I'd die on. Put your foot down so hard it registers on the Richter scale.


----------



## Andy1001

MJJEAN said:


> Checking in with his ex once a week via text is what I would consider frequent contact.
> My parents moved a lot when I was a kid, I can pack a house in less than 24 hrs. DH's stuff would be no sweat. If DH talked to his ex weekly via text and offered to go to medical appointments with her, I'd seriously pack up his stuff while he's at the doctors office and have it on her doorstep before he got back.
> 
> If he actually cares for her and isn't just doing this stuff to make himself feel better then he needs to understand he is doing more harm than good. He thinks he's helping, but he's hindering. As long as he is there for her, as long as he's giving her attention and being her "rock" and "shoulder to lean on", she's going to A) milk it for all it's worth because she didn't want the divorce in the first place and will do whatever she can to keep him in her orbit and B) she will never, ever, ever, "get her **** straight" because his continued presence is literally incentive to continue to be a hot mess.
> 
> In other words, him actually moving on and breaking contact is best for all involved. Him, you, and her.
> 
> Put your foot down so hard it registers on the Richter scale.


I agree with everything you wrote except for the last sentence.
She shouldn’t put her foot down,she should put it up.
Up his ass that is,as hard and as far as she can get it.


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## Blondilocks

The problem is she bought a house with him.


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## Adelais

You know he is cheating on you with his ex wife, don't you? 

He wouldn't divorce her for years and now that he has divorced her he wants to continue to text her and go to dinner with her. You were the other women in his marriage, and now she is the other woman in your dating life.

You don't even have children with this guy, yet you put up with his schenanigans. Why?

Have you read the book Codependent No More?


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## Livvie

Blondilocks said:


> The problem is she bought a house with him.


That's a problem, but not the end of the world. Sell it, sort out the finances. Or one of them keeps it, and they sort out the finances.

It's not like they've been financial partners for decades.

It's still doable to end the relationship.


----------



## Openminded

There has always been three of you in this relationship and apparently he doesn't intend to change the pattern. The choices are still what they've been from the beginning.


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## Diana7

lynn11374 said:


> To clarify, he talks to her her very infrequently. He checks in with her via text about once a week and asks how her doctors appointments are going so she’s not this daily presence in our lives. He offered once to go with her to the doctor so she wouldn’t feel so scared and alone as she does. He said it makes him sad to see this person that he cares about for 10 years to go through this downward spiral and wants her to be happy and catch a break. I really do believe he feels he’s doing the right thing by helping her, it just irritates me because whenever there is an interaction he is frustrated that she can’t get her sh!t together and it annoys me that he’s annoyed. And if I express that I come off sounding uncaring and heartless which is why I have not enforced this boundary.


If she always leans on him she never will get her act together. Surely she has friends? family?

We are both formerly divorced and neither of us has any contact at all with the exes and haven't done for years. The children are adults, no need for any contact whatsoever, but in your case there are no children I believe. There is no way that he should be having a meal with her or texting her. 

I do feel VERY sorry for her being abandoned by her husband, and I have no idea why you would be in anyway interested in any man who could do such an awful thing, how can you possibly trust him, but he CHOOSE to leave her and because he did that, his marriage is over. 

Personally I would give him a choice, he cuts off contact for good or your separate. Personally I would never have dated a man who wasn't even going though the divorce process or who had abandoned his former wife for another woman. You did that and that's why you have had this struggle. He was in no way ready for another relationship, and still isn't. He hasn't cut the emotional ties and moved on.


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## MattMatt

*Re: boyfriend's inaction on divorce process - update!*



lynn11374 said:


> Hi Everyone. So I've been dating a man for about a year and half, who is separated from his wife. I was separated as well when we met, and finalized my divorce in December. We moved in together in November with the expectation that he will be moving forward with the divorce, and I relocated to the area he lived in so he could be close to his job, he is a business owner. everything is great in our relationship. He is very kind and loving towards me, goes above and beyond to make me happy, and we have a lot in common. He has integrated me into his life, family and friends. I am very happy with everything except for the fact that he hasn't filed for divorce yet.
> 
> His wife does not want a divorce. Every time he tries to talk to her about dividing up assets etc.., she becomes hysterical, saying she will instead wait for him to come back to her. He assures her he is not coming back, but says all she has in her life is the hope they can still work things out. They do not have kids. He has been waiting for her to come around and accept reality so they can move forward with filing but it's just not happening. I told him to just file, but he said he'd rather do this amicably and he is willing to give her whatever she wants in the divorce. He doesn't want to deal with lawyers and courts, and wants to make sure she is emotionally ok with everything. He has been encouraging her to start dating other people so she can move on, but she says absolutely not, she is waiting for him to come home.
> 
> He is now saying he wants to buy a house with me. I don't know how that would work since he is still financially and legally linked to her. I don't know how to approach the conversation because it always ends up in a fight. Any advice?


Remind us, please why did he find it necessary to leave her and to divorce her?

Also remind him of why he left her and divorced her.

You need to tell him to stop being so cruel to her!

She needs, perhaps with professional counselling, to be helped to move on to live her life as a responsible single woman. 

She will not be able to do this with his hinderance, well intended though it might be.


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## She'sStillGotIt

lynn11374 said:


> To clarify, he talks to her her very infrequently. He checks in with her via text about once a week and asks how her doctors appointments are going so she’s not this daily presence in our lives..


LOL.

His excuse to stay in touch with her *before* the divorce was that she was having a tough time with their separation and pending divorce so he was staying in touch with her and going over to their house in order keep things running smoothly and blah blah blah. 

So what's his lame and feeble excuse for continuing that nonsense *NOW*?

Looks like he accomplished what he set out to do - he got a divorce. *Big whoop*. People do it *every day* but these two idiots act as though their divorce was a much bigger deal than everyone else's, and that _they're_ special and don't need to follow the protocol.

I think you just like to vent here and use this thread as some kind of journal because your lack of self respect and your desperate need to cling to this guy like grim death is just painfully apparent. Any *truly* self respecting woman would have been gone a long, long time ago.

And deep down, I think you know that.


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## lynn11374

So I don't think it's my place to tell him to completely cut off all contact as I don't expect to cut off all contact from my ex H. I exchange texts with my ex H every now and then - I am still friends with his sister, sister-in-law and his mom still sends me xmas and bday gifts. I wouldn't want my bf to insist that I stop all contact with these people who were part of my life for 20 years so I will not be doing the same to him.

That being said, I'm not really into the idea of him reaching out to her and asking her to grab dinner or discussing her health problems. That's where I draw the line. It's not like I've been begging him to stop contact and he refuses - I haven't said much about it other than I think he should stop trying to help her because she can't be helped. And he is not wanting to get back together with her or reconsidering his divorce - he truly feels pity for her since she is alone and does not have close friends and is not close with her family (although I think that fact is rather telling about her). He wants her to feel like she has a friend for support, that's it. I just think it's doing more harm than good to everyone involved and the way I see it - friendship is something that's mutual so the reality is that she is not his friend since this dynamic is completely one-sided and she still resents him for leaving.

Just wanted to get an idea on whether my sense of boundaries was reasonable so I appreciate the input.
I agree with the fact that the only help that would be useful to her is counseling and meds and I will remind him of why he left her in the first place.


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## personofinterest

lynn11374 said:


> *So I don't think it's my place to tell him to completely cut off all contact as I don't expect to cut off all contact from my ex H. I exchange texts with my ex H every now and then - I am still friends with his sister, sister-in-law and his mom still sends me xmas and bday gifts. I wouldn't want my bf to insist that I stop all contact with these people who were part of my life for 20 years so I will not be doing the same to him.
> *
> That being said, I'm not really into the idea of him reaching out to her and asking her to grab dinner or discussing her health problems. That's where I draw the line. It's not like I've been begging him to stop contact and he refuses - I haven't said much about it other than I think he should stop trying to help her because she can't be helped. And he is not wanting to get back together with her or reconsidering his divorce - he truly feels pity for her since she is alone and does not have close friends and is not close with her family (although I think that fact is rather telling about her). He wants her to feel like she has a friend for support, that's it. I just think it's doing more harm than good to everyone involved and the way I see it - friendship is something that's mutual so the reality is that she is not his friend since this dynamic is completely one-sided and she still resents him for leaving.
> 
> Just wanted to get an idea on whether my sense of boundaries was reasonable so I appreciate the input.
> I agree with the fact that the only help that would be useful to her is counseling and meds and I will remind him of why he left her in the first place.


So both of you have a problem with boundaries regarding exes, his are just glaringly worse. There is no need for either of you to be social with ex's. i was married for 20 years. I don't talk to ex at all unless it involved the kids, who are in college, so that is hardly ever. I don't talk to his family. They are nice - they are no longer my family.

You aren't married to each other, you don't let go of your past relationships. This doesn't sound healthy at all.


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## lynn11374

personofinterest said:


> So both of you have a problem with boundaries regarding exes, his are just glaringly worse. There is no need for either of you to be social with ex's. i was married for 20 years. I don't talk to ex at all unless it involved the kids, who are in college, so that is hardly ever. I don't talk to his family. They are nice - they are no longer my family.
> 
> You aren't married to each other, you don't let go of your past relationships. This doesn't sound healthy at all.



I understand there is no NEED but what is the reason why mature, healthy adults would need to forever blacklist people from their lives just because a marriage didn't work out? That just seems extreme to me.


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## personofinterest

lynn11374 said:


> I understand there is no NEED but what is the reason why mature, healthy adults would need to forever blacklist people from their lives just because a marriage didn't work out? That just seems extreme to me.


It's not a blacklist. it's "He is no longer part of my life. I don't need to initiate socialization with him."

As for your husband, he is just hurting his ex over and over. The longer he is her white knight, the longer it will take her to ever move on. It's like picking at the scab over a wound over and over. She CAN'T ever heal.


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## She'sStillGotIt

I hear you - I remained friends with my ex and we still get along great 25 years later. My husband has met him as my grown son stays at his huge home whenever he flies in from out of state and we go to pick him up or drop a car off for him to use, etc. Over the years I've had lunch with my ex if I was in town and we ran into each other, or an early dinner. We co-parented beautifully when my son was younger and we'll always be good friends. Always. My husband thinks he's a real nice guy.

But what I *didn't *do was call him once or twice a week after we separated, I didn't go out to dinner with him on a regular basis, and I didn't act like a mother hen about every single little thing going on in his life. Like I said, we co-parented my son and over the 25 years since our divorce, I've had lunch with him a couple times due to timing - and nothing more. And THAT'S considered a bit much by a lot of folks I know.

Your boyfriend's need to continually stay in his ex's life - and using the excuse that the only reason he does it is due to HER inability to move forward - is lame. It's like he's bought a free pass to continue being emotionally involved with her because you believe it's all coming from her.

That's your first mistake.

I don't care what texts you've seen between them or what calls you've heard between these two. He only lets you hear what he WANTS you to hear, and unless you're attached at his hip every single second he's in contact with her or face to face with her, you DON'T know what he's saying to her and you DON'T know what they're discussing.

You _*don't.*_


----------



## Openminded

He didn't cut these ties before when you wanted him to and he's not likely to cut them now. At least you haven't married him yet. Don't. Unless you want to continue your relationship of three.


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## Adelais

lynn11374 said:


> I understand there is no NEED but *what is the reason why mature, healthy adults would need to forever blacklist people from their lives just because a marriage didn't work out?* That just seems extreme to me.


Because if they don't people end up hurt. In today's age, they end up posting on a forum like TAM because they are hurt that the spouse has such poor boundaries with their ex.

Unless you want to be the boundary police, which it sounds like you are willing to be, the easiest and safest stance after divorce is no contact.

Your desire to keep in contact with your exes has put you in an uncomfortable and precarious position when it comes to your bf and his exes.

You have made your choice, so live with it and stop complaining.


----------



## lucy999

lynn11374 said:


> I understand there is no NEED but what is the reason why mature, healthy adults would need to forever blacklist people from their lives just because a marriage didn't work out? That just seems extreme to me.


But do you text your ex every week? Offer to go to medical appointments with him? Incessantly worry about him? Want to "grab dinner" (call it what it is-a date) with him?

I also think your BF is neither healthy nor mature. He's a cake eater.


----------



## EleGirl

lynn11374 said:


> I understand there is no NEED but what is the reason why mature, healthy adults would need to forever blacklist people from their lives just because a marriage didn't work out? That just seems extreme to me.


Very often a marriage does not work out because at least one of the spouses mistreated the other horribly. Few people who divorce remain friends due to this.


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## MJJEAN

lynn11374 said:


> I understand there is no NEED but what is the reason why mature, healthy adults would need to forever blacklist people from their lives just because a marriage didn't work out? That just seems extreme to me.


We're not talking about mature, healthy, adults here. We're talking about a woman that isn't healthy and an attachment that, by it's very nature, encourages her to stay unhealthy.


----------



## turnera

lynn11374 said:


> That being said, I'm not really into the idea of him reaching out to her and asking her to grab dinner or discussing her health problems. That's where I draw the line. It's not like I've been begging him to stop contact and he refuses - I haven't said much about it other than I think he should stop trying to help her because she can't be helped. And he is not wanting to get back together with her or reconsidering his divorce - he truly feels pity for her
> 
> Just wanted to get an idea on whether my sense of boundaries was reasonable so I appreciate the input.


So many things here. First, you are NOT drawing a line. Clearly, you have drawn NO LINE. Do you see that? Drawing a line is literally a line - do not do this. But a line (what we call a boundary) must have a CONSEQUENCE. IMO, you're afraid to have a boundary because you're afraid he will IGNORE your boundary and stay connected to her once a week. In essence, telling you that he does NOT love you - enough - to just choose you.

Second, you haven't said anything - again, out of your own fear he will choose her and not you. What does that say about you and your self-worth? Think about it.

Third, he doesn't HAVE to get back together with her because he is eating cake. He's getting part of his fulfillment from you and part of his fulfillment from her. Why? BECAUSE YOU LET HIM.

Fourth, you aren't understanding boundaries yet. Have you read up on the whole concept? A boundary - and its inherent consequence (or else it's not a boundary, just a wish) - informs your partner what you will and won't accept. The consequence is not what you do to him. It's what you do FOR YOURSELF to protect you when he crosses over that line in the sand. 

Your role in this relationship is to TELL him that your boundary is now no further contact with your ex except via texts that you expect to be able to read. That's a perfectly legitimate line in the sand for you to have. HE is then in the position of deciding if he wants you more than he wants to keep eating cake. And if he chooses to test your boundary? Your _consequence _must be swift, unequivocal, and unmoving - to leave him until he gets his head out of his behind and gives her up. Cos trust me, hon, he has not given her up yet. Because you haven't forced him to.

Last year, you said you wouldn't still be with him if he didn't take care of this ****. And yet here you are. And you wonder why he still sees her all the time. 

The problem here isn't him, Lynn. It's you.


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## lynn11374

What I want is a good way to explain to him why this is inappropriate. He is the kind of person that at times marches to the beat of his own drum. Because of that, it makes him a good fit for me in some ways because I tend to have some non-traditional believes and interests myself. So you have to believe me when I see he truly doesn’t see anything wrong with this and in his mind it’s innocent. Me drawing a line would be viewed as me telling him he’s no longer allowed to care for his aging mother. He doesn’t see the difference. So my preference would be to make him understand why it’s different rather than me forcing a boundary and creating resentment.


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## MattMatt

He has taught his ex that she could not cope without him. And, by gum, he is continuing with the same cruel, training, ensuring that she will never be able to function as an adult.

He needs to stop this.


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## lynn11374

MattMatt said:


> He has taught his ex that she could not cope without him. And, by gum, he is continuing with the same cruel, training, ensuring that she will never be able to function as an adult.
> 
> He needs to stop this.


I agree with this.


----------



## Andy1001

lynn11374 said:


> What I want is a good way to explain to him why this is inappropriate. He is the kind of person that at times marches to the beat of his own drum. Because of that, it makes him a good fit for me in some ways because I tend to have some non-traditional believes and interests myself. So you have to believe me when I see he truly doesn’t see anything wrong with this and in his mind it’s innocent. Me drawing a line would be viewed as me telling him he’s no longer allowed to care for his aging mother. He doesn’t see the difference. So my preference would be to make him understand why it’s different rather than me forcing a boundary and creating resentment.


“Boyfriend for almost four years we have been dating/living together but it seems you need to always have your ex wife in your life.I am not willing to put up with this anymore and I don’t wish to discuss the situation any further.You have a penchant for turning things around and making me feel guilty whenever I try to enforce some boundaries.If you can’t live without your ex then I suggest you return to her,we can put the house on the market again.A simple yes or no answer is all I will accept,no gaslighting or trying to guilt me into giving in”.
Yours.
Lynn.


----------



## turnera

lynn11374 said:


> What I want is a good way to explain to him why this is inappropriate. He is the kind of person that at times marches to the beat of his own drum. Because of that, it makes him a good fit for me in some ways because I tend to have some non-traditional believes and interests myself. So you have to believe me when I see he truly doesn’t see anything wrong with this and in his mind it’s innocent. Me drawing a line would be viewed as me telling him he’s no longer allowed to care for his aging mother. He doesn’t see the difference. So my preference would be to make him understand why it’s different rather than me forcing a boundary and creating resentment.


See, this is where boundaries and consequences are so golden. You're spinning in circles trying to find a way to control him, a way to CONVINCE him to do what you want. You can't control another person, lynn. 

What we are telling you is that you have to understand that YOUR happiness involves him not seeing his ex on ANY regular basis. Once a year? Maybe. Twice a month? Absolutely not. That is not the kind of relationship you want, and you know it - or you wouldn't BE here trying to find some way to salvage this sordid deal.

You don't have to convince him of anything. 

All you have to do is KNOW that you don't want to share him with her. Period. That is all this whole, long thread has been about and continues to be about. You want him to want only you and...he doesn't want only you.

Therefore, the only step you now have is this: MrLynn, I love you but I'm done sharing you with another woman with whom you have a history. If you need to keep seeing her for whatever reasons, that's your right. _My right _is to tell you that if you do, I can no longer see you. We will sell the house and go our separate ways; I respect myself too much to share you and only get part of your attention and affection. I'll give you til the end of January to decide and if I don't see you choosing to remove your ex from your life/our lives, I will see a lawyer and make plans to move.

And if you're unwilling to tell him that, then it's clear to everyone that you ARE willing to share him, subject yourself to him, just to have part of him. You may want to ask your therapist why that is.


----------



## ILoveSparkles

Be blunt - the relationship you have with your ex in inappropriate and needs to stop now. If she needs support she can look to friends and family for that, not him. 



Also, if he chooses to date her (which is exactly he will be doing if he goes to dinner with her) he's not over her. So he'll have you as his "main woman" and her as "other woman" and you are allowing that to happen. He's put himself in a spot where he has two women wanting him which is exactly what he is getting. If he is serious about you, he will stop communicating with her and focus on you only. She's an adult and needs to act like one.


If you won't stand up for yourself, set boundaries and not follow through, then this will be your life by your choice.


Comparing his ex to his aging mother is absolutely ridiculous. If he doesn't see the difference is just messed up. And I have no doubt he knows the difference between the two.


If you create a boundary and he is resentful of it over something like this, then there is yet ANOTHER problem.


You keep making excuses. You want to be with him no matter what. Most people here would not, but it's your choice so you need to accept this is your life.


----------



## Openminded

There is no "good way" to (again) explain your position. He knows how you feel. He doesn't care because he sees nothing wrong with what he's doing. He's going to continue because that's what he wants. This is who he is. You know where that leaves you.


----------



## Diana7

lynn11374 said:


> So I don't think it's my place to tell him to completely cut off all contact as I don't expect to cut off all contact from my ex H. I exchange texts with my ex H every now and then - I am still friends with his sister, sister-in-law and his mom still sends me xmas and bday gifts. I wouldn't want my bf to insist that I stop all contact with these people who were part of my life for 20 years so I will not be doing the same to him.
> 
> That being said, I'm not really into the idea of him reaching out to her and asking her to grab dinner or discussing her health problems. That's where I draw the line. It's not like I've been begging him to stop contact and he refuses - I haven't said much about it other than I think he should stop trying to help her because she can't be helped. And he is not wanting to get back together with her or reconsidering his divorce - he truly feels pity for her since she is alone and does not have close friends and is not close with her family (although I think that fact is rather telling about her). He wants her to feel like she has a friend for support, that's it. I just think it's doing more harm than good to everyone involved and the way I see it - friendship is something that's mutual so the reality is that she is not his friend since this dynamic is completely one-sided and she still resents him for leaving.
> 
> Just wanted to get an idea on whether my sense of boundaries was reasonable so I appreciate the input.
> I agree with the fact that the only help that would be useful to her is counseling and meds and I will remind him of why he left her in the first place.


I am in fairly regular contact with my former husbands parents and sister, but I never see him. There is no need for me to contact him or see him, and I haven't done for about 12 years. I don't get people who think its ok for them to see their ex. However being that you do, you can hardly expect him not to.


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## Zodiac

A reformed Nice guy - Caretaker , KISA here with co dependency habits. I loved a narc women who was lazy. It did not end well. I just read the whole thread. Every single time you mentioned YOUR feelings, he/you rolled into what he was doing wasn't wrong. Yet nothing about your feelings and needs. HE DOES not seem to be an empathetic listener to you. He does to his ex wife however. He may or may not have been giving her physical intimacy, but he was with you...., He appears to give all the empathy to her, and you get the physical aspect. I wouldnt be surprised if he's in love with both you. Your two relationships almost make a legit one. Between that and all the manipulation, gas lighting, love bombing and circular conversations when you hold him responsible, or how he brings your needs into the mix to keep You hooked. I'd say he was a naracsisst. Narcs love to isolate people. There is ALOT of material for being in relationships with them. I'd look into it so you're prepared. It's almost impossible to not lose yourself in those relationships. I don't want to speculate that her mental well being very well may be a direct result of how he's treated her, might explain the guilt, if I felt he could register it. I'm a fan of family members severing contact as well, unless kids are involved. 

Your situation is almost like one of those bar jokes.... A narc, a co dependent and a hopeless roomantic all walk Into a bar....


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