# Questions for the group



## skyhawk (Jan 6, 2014)

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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

skyhawk said:


> Being as it appears almost everyone who posts here is eventually told one of two things:
> 1)They have a bad marriage and should divorce.
> OR
> 2)They are a bad person and should let the other go.
> ...


Too bad Mrs. John Adams' posts (except for those in Social) are now gone--they contained the answers to all these questions.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

skyhawk said:


> What does it take for a "bad" person to be no longer considered a "bad" person?



eternal remorse


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

People generally only come here when they are in a bad marriage that all other resources have failed to fix.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

skyhawk said:


> Being as it appears almost everyone who posts here is eventually told one of two things:
> 1)They have a bad marriage and should divorce.
> OR
> 2)They are a bad person and should let the other go.
> ...


You asked these questions in your last thread and got answers (which I presume you didn't like and certainly didn't reply to) and now you ask again in a new thread - so I'll bite again and here goes:


_Can you please describe a good marriage? (Use dot points if you like.)_

Many definitions for a good marriage but in dot points:

Love
Mutual respect
Honesty
Trust
Empathy
No major secrets
In sickness and in health
Did I mention love, respect and honesty

_Could a marriage that has had infidelity ever become "good" or is it considered forever "bad"?_

A marriage involving infidelity will never be the same is all anyone can really say. The chances of most people recovering are slim. In order for it to "work" (not be good or even the same), it has to be broken and you have to start all over again albeit with a totally different mindset - the trust is normally gone.

_Can a person "repent" and change or is there a point where a personality is fixed?_

A person can repent and change, yes, but only if they truly understand and own what they did wrong in the first place.

_How can someone demonstrate a change of heart in a way that would be considered "acceptable"?_

By demonstrably showing that they understand and own what they did wrong in the first place. It starts with owning up to the difficult truth. It continues with being honest about your right to walk away from this marriage and doing everything they can to make it easy for you to do whatever you need to do, but being thankful if you choose to stay (knowing it could end at any time). Then comes all the other stuff about transparency, empathy with your triggers etc.

_What does it take for a "bad" person to be no longer considered a "bad" person?_

See answer to the above question - but in summary, by understanding, acknowledging, owning and being genuinely remorseful for what they did wrong and then being active in helping the wronged person recover/heal being transparent, honest and empathetic at all times. Tall order I know. But you know what they say about doing the crime and doing the time.

OK so now here is some of the truth that your wife needs to tell you:

I never really loved you to start with.
I was in love with OM and wanted him all the time.
I made a mistake in marrying you at the time.
I am selfish and still wanted to f**k him and would have preferred it if he was my first to.
This is disrespectful to you but I thought that you wanted me so bad, you would not mind.
I managed to guilt you (because I am that good at manipulation) into paying for me to finally go f**k him.
It turns out that he is not that good a f**k and/or he doesn't really offer me much and I think now that my itch is scratched, I would probably have a more stable life with you, after all I have grown quite fond of you. Until the next time I have an itch, that is.
If you are OK with all of this, the truth is that my respect for you will have gone down further but I am willing to try. I love you.
If you are not OK with all of this, there is a glimpse of somebody I could respect and truly fall in love with.

If she is this honest, then yes she can repent and start to make amends. In any case your existing marriage is broken and you need to start all over again. You do not appear to be doing this but instead think you won something - that is delusional.

Please don't think that I am attacking you. I respect that you came here to tell us the result because you thought it might help other people and that is admirable. However, I would be less than honest if I didn't tell you the above and am hoping it will help you. It is possible that your wife is truly repentant - this is a harsh checklist for you to digest and use as a gauge for how you really are doing in your marriage and what recovery steps need to be taken (mainly by your wife). If and how you point this out to her is up to you.

Good luck!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

skyhawk said:


> Being as it appears almost everyone who posts here is eventually told one of two things:
> 1)They have a bad marriage and should divorce.
> OR
> 2)They are a bad person and should let the other go.
> ...


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## BURNT KEP (Oct 3, 2012)

skyhawk said:


> Being as it appears almost everyone who posts here is eventually told one of two things:
> 1)They have a bad marriage and should divorce.
> OR
> 2)They are a bad person and should let the other go.
> ...


You seem to be looking for something you will never get here. If you are happy with your choice and your life I think it's time to move on from this site. You will never get what you think you want from here. Good luck.


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## skyhawk (Jan 6, 2014)

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## skyhawk (Jan 6, 2014)

BURNT KEP said:


> You seem to be looking for something you will never get here. If you are happy with your choice and your life I think it's time to move on from this site. You will never get what you think you want from here. Good luck.


I asked a set of questions, why don't you step up and answer them, even if you find them confronting.


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## skyhawk (Jan 6, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> People generally only come here when they are in a bad marriage that all other resources have failed to fix.


See, I thought it was Talk About Marriage, and that the questions I posed are quite relevant to the general relationship discussion.


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## skyhawk (Jan 6, 2014)

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## BURNT KEP (Oct 3, 2012)

skyhawk said:


> I asked a set of questions, why don't you step up and answer them, even if you find them confronting.


I could not say it any better than manfromlamancha posted earlier.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

1) a good marriage is one where both partners are happy and love each other.

2) A marriage can become good after infidelity if the partner who cheated never feels the desire to do so again, and the other partner forgives them.

3) People can repent and people can forgive. 

4) you can't prove repentance, you can't prove forgiveness. Both are a leap of faith, a willingness to trust the other despite a past betrayal. Some people can do it, some cannot. 

5) It take forgiveness to no longer consider someone bad.


Forgiveness is misunderstood. It is not something you do because the score has been made even. The entire point of forgiveness is that you accept that the "score" is not even but you forgive anyway. When someone strikes you on the cheek you forgive - not because you have hit them back, not because they were arrested and spent time in prison, and not because you are sure they will not strike you again. You forgive as a leap of faith that upon seeing your forgiveness they will repent and the will love you. You forgive knowing that they may strike you again. 






skyhawk said:


> Being as it appears almost everyone who posts here is eventually told one of two things:
> 1)They have a bad marriage and should divorce.
> OR
> 2)They are a bad person and should let the other go.
> ...


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

OP is making untrue generalizations IMO.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

_Can you please describe a good marriage? _

I don't necessarily equate "long-lasting" with "good" so I'm just going to describe my version of "good": 

- It includes two people who are relatively emotionally healthy and self-aware, willing to show their real selves and be accepting of all that their partner is, warts and all 
- Compatibility: sexually, financially, and parenting philosophy especially
- You approach goals and conflict with the idea that you are a team, not opponents
- You care about each others' well being and happiness
- You are honest and transparent with one another which creates trust

_Could a marriage that has had infidelity ever become "good" or is it considered forever "bad"?_

Yes - relationships can be good after infidelity. 

_Can a person "repent" and change or is there a point where a personality is fixed?_

Personality is fixed. Behavior is always a choice. 

_How can someone demonstrate a change of heart in a way that would be considered "acceptable"?_

I think that depends to some extent on the injured party and the nature of the infraction. The injured party needs to define for themselves what would make things better. 

_What does it take for a "bad" person to be no longer considered a "bad" person?_

I don't accept the premise of the question. People aren't bad. They do bad things.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

skyhawk said:


> Hmm, same person and only 1 set of answers. I assume everyone is scared of you for some reason.



:rofl: Scared of him? :rofl:



skyhawk said:


> I liked your answers up to the point where you started contradicting yourself.
> 
> Thought it would be good for others to have their opinions too so I put this out where it was more likely to attract attention


The answer to all your questions is that, yes marriages can recover from infidel, abuse and a zillion other problems. They can be stronger and better because both partners can grow in the process of the recovery and making positive changes.

However, for a lot of marriage there comes a point when after years of trying everything they can, a person realizes that their spouse has intention of doing their part in fixing things. So the person divorces to save themselves.

As a society there is not a lot of support for people who want to fix their marriage. Friends and family do not put pressure and a spouse who is abusing, cheating or otherwise hurting the marriage. Why? Because most people take the "it's not may business stance."

Most marriage counselors are really divorce counselors.

There is not a lot of support for marital recovery out there. Instead the support is for each person to do whatever the hey they want to do.. to seek personal happiness and if that means screwing their spouse over... ok. 


There are things that a person can do. Get counseling (but they have to find the right counselors), there are a lot of good books that quite frankly are better than hours of counseling, they can change their own behavior, they can better themselves. But at some point if the spouse does not get on board the marriage is still a lousy and can even be detrimental to the mental and physical health of the spouse who is tryhing.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

skyhawk said:


> Hmm, same person and only 1 set of answers. I assume everyone is scared of you for some reason.
> 
> I liked your answers up to the point where you started contradicting yourself.
> 
> Thought it would be good for others to have their opinions too so I put this out where it was more likely to attract attention


Scared of me !?! Oh yeah sure - take EleGirl - she seems absolutely terrified of me.

And again I am always interested to know where I contradict myself (I often do this when I have had lack of sleep and/or coffee), so do tell.


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## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

DoF said:


> OP is making untrue generalizations IMO.


Exactly! You cannot get answers to these questions that are right or wrong for every situation. Marriage involves human beings, who are very unique, have a unique set of circumstances, and need individualized help. People who always post the same advice are not posting wisely. Advice has to be catered to the person and their situation.

People post their stories here because of that very thing. Although manoflamancha gave good answers, you will notice they are not in absolute terms. That is because anybody with half a brain will realize the solutions for problems in relationships are not simple or quick fixes. They are complicated by their very nature.


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## skyhawk (Jan 6, 2014)

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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

skyhawk said:


> Go do a survey of posts and replies as I did.
> There are some classic "cyber bullies" in the group who must inflict their will and put others down at all costs it seems. "They" have a fixed set of rules and will punish anyone who is outside the norm, at least that is my experience here.
> 
> I am so pleased that you have had a completely different experience.


I'm not sharing your sentiment. I don't see these "cyber bullies" the way you do. Actually, I'm not even all that sure of what you mean by that....

I do believe, there ARE a fixed set of rules in marriage. (Love, respect, integrity, honesty, etc) And when a poster falls out of that norm, yes I question their motives. If you feel that's "punishment" then well, that's your view. That's the great thing about opinions, everyone has one. This forum encourages people to share experiences and knowledge. How that is considered "cyber bullying", I'm not following your logic.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

There are definitely controlling people on TAM. We all have our own views, and I think we all benefit from hearing a variety of views. 

But the controllers want to shut people down. They want to "protect" people from hearing a view that may "harm" them. They seem to believe they know best what the rest of us should be allowed to hear.

Whenever I see sarcasm, shouting, or basically reactive emotion in general in a post, it makes me think "weak," and "fearful." The strongest posts, the way I see it, are sincere, open, honest, and reason-based.

And do not forget: many, many people read here who do not post, or put a like on a post. The controllers only *think* they are in control.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Skyhawk, you come here and ask questions and for advice (on different threads). When you get answers from some of us that you do not like to hear, we suddenly become cyber bullies. Incredible ?

You then get together with those who agree or sympathise with your pre-judged point of view (in short you already had answers to your questions so why ask) that those who did not agree and gave you a little bit of brutal truth were cyber bullies. Because they were prepared to defend their comments and explain their thinking. Who is the real cyber bully here ?

Why not rebut the answers that you do not like with answers of your own instead of going off into another thread to seek answers that you approve of.

If you are happy with your marriage why do you ask questions. You "know" you made the right decision then fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone can agree to disagree (like Sidney and I did). Where is the bullying ?

And as for bitter experience, yes there is a lot of that on TAM and behind it is a collective wisdom which has served many in good stead. When you receive answers to your questions you should be prepared to hear what is being said.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

skyhawk said:


> Being as it appears almost everyone who posts here is eventually told one of two things:
> 1)They have a bad marriage and should divorce.
> OR
> 2)They are a bad person and should let the other go.
> ...



I don't believe I responded to your original post, but I read it when I saw the other post. I am wondering if the root of all of this is doubt? Normally people would dust off advice or opinions they don't want to hear or can't accept or completely disagree with and move on. Then others get angry and bitter and you have to wonder if under it all, the real source is doubt about their choices that they don't want to face.


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

skyhawk said:


> Can you please describe a good marriage? (Use dot points if you like.)


A good marriage is one in which both wife and husband have made marriage a priority and are willing to change everything else to make it work. A bad marriage is one in which one or both partners have subordinated the marriage to something else.



> Could a marriage that has had infidelity ever become "good" or is it considered forever "bad"?


Absolutely yes. But certainly one and probably both must change.



> Can a person "repent" and change or is there a point where a personality is fixed?


That is the start of change and the point of repentance.



> How can someone demonstrate a change of heart in a way that would be considered "acceptable"?


The offending spouse must be humble and earn back trust from the other spouse without expecting it. The offended spouse must forgive but be wary of fraud.



> What does it take for a "bad" person to be no longer considered a "bad" person?


People will always be bad but the worst person is the person who refuses to change. If you are trying to change to make the marriage work, you are at least moving in the right direction.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Philat said:


> Too bad Mrs. John Adams' posts (except for those in Social) are now gone--they contained the answers to all these questions.


Crap, I hadn't noticed she did that. She had a lot of good stuff to offer.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> Crap, I hadn't noticed she did that. She had a lot of good stuff to offer.


I think it came about because a group of nice friendly people decided that she, as a WW, could never be treated as an acceptable human being.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

skyhawk said:


> Being as it appears almost everyone who posts here is eventually told one of two things:
> 1)They have a bad marriage and should divorce.
> OR
> 2)They are a bad person and should let the other go.


People that come here are pretty much in dire straits. Very rarely is there anything left to save, and the best advice offered is how to extricate oneself with the minimum amount of collateral damage. 



skyhawk said:


> Can you please describe a good marriage? (Use dot points if you like.)


A "good marriage" is an oxymoron. I've never seen one. 



skyhawk said:


> Could a marriage that has had infidelity ever become "good" or is it considered forever "bad"?


Forever bad. Nothing to save after infidelity. 



skyhawk said:


> Can a person "repent" and change or is there a point where a personality is fixed?


A person's personality is pretty well fixed by the early 20s. If a person has shown their true colors, well that's what you're going to get from them going forward. There might be the occasional rare exception but I wouldn't bet on it. 



skyhawk said:


> How can someone demonstrate a change of heart in a way that would be considered "acceptable"?


You're talking about a person who cheated somehow showing they're remorseful and looking for forgiveness?

Impossible. Sorry



skyhawk said:


> What does it take for a "bad" person to be no longer considered a "bad" person?


A person isn't bad just because they cheated, they're just lacking in impulse control, and they're selfish and they don't really care enough about their partner's feelings to protect them. But they're not "bad". 

Bad includes "terrorist" or "serial killer". Bad people like that can't change. Execution is the the only way to remove them from the "bad person" category.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

If I knew what truly constituted a good marriage I would be too busy doing it. Having an engaged wife that loved me and therefore no time to post here. But alas, the opposite is true and hear I am.

As for "cyberbullies"...you're on the internet. You are not going to hear what you'd like to hear most of the time. You have to understand the resource you're using too. People here are mostly in terrible marriages or have left one. The advice you will get is based off of their horrible experiences.

And common sense of course. Don't forget that. Some people have the benefit of a fresh set of eyes since we're not immersed in the situation at hand.

But if you still feel hurt at the responses you're getting because you feel your wife will never get the kudos you THINK she deserves I offer you this bit of advice. Don't listen to my advice. I am admittedly in a horrible situation and probably cannot seperate my reality from yours.


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