# New here seeking some understanding



## longint45

My wife and I have have various problems over 17 years. Me with and on-again off-again porn addiction (which as a recently saved Christion and counseling I am happy to say I have made permanent changes to) and my wife who cheated twice while I was deployed (was military), and I suspect there was a third. We are in a bad patch now and struggling to understand our situations. We do both desire to stay together and are struggling with how.

Thanks to all.


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## Bremik

Sorry you are here. Thank you so much for your service and the sacrifices you make as a result.
Unfortunately family and marriage is one of those sacrifices.

Can you be more specific about what's going on right now?


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## BarbedFenceRider

I need discription as to the "bad patch". That could include a whole gambit of stuff. A little clarity would help.


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## Lostinthought61

So i have to ask...why are you still with a serial cheater...and please don't even classify in the same vein as physical cheating...last i check the bible covers adultery as physical cheating.


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## Marduk

longint45 said:


> My wife and I have have various problems over 17 years. Me with and on-again off-again porn addiction (which as a recently saved Christion and counseling I am happy to say I have made permanent changes to) and my wife who cheated twice while I was deployed (was military), and I suspect there was a third. We are in a bad patch now and struggling to understand our situations. We do both desire to stay together and are struggling with how.
> 
> Thanks to all.


Hmm.

"On and off again porn addiction."

Married to a multiple cheater.

I'm suspecting she helped you define your addiction for you, didn't she? And this was part of her excuse for cheating? And her solution she helped guide you to was to be come a born again christian that should both "fix" your "porn addiction" and simultaneously force you to forgive her serial cheating?

I smell serious gaslighting here, man.


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## BluesPower

Marduk said:


> Hmm.
> 
> "On and off again porn addiction."
> 
> Married to a multiple cheater.
> 
> I'm suspecting she helped you define your addiction for you, didn't she? And this was part of her excuse for cheating? And her solution she helped guide you to was to be come a born again christian that should both "fix" your "porn addiction" and simultaneously force you to forgive her serial cheating?
> 
> I smell serious gaslighting here, man.


Agreed. I was wondering how to put that. 

Look I know that porn addiction is a real thing. But unless it is SUPER, SUPER bad, it is not in the same ballpark as cheating. Twice that he knows of at least. 

Yeah, somehow I call BS on the Porn thing and kind of just think she is s serial cheater. 

How do guys allow themselves to be duped like this...


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## sokillme

da


longint45 said:


> My wife and I have have various problems over 17 years. Me with and on-again off-again porn addiction (which as a recently saved Christion and counseling I am happy to say I have made permanent changes to) and my wife who cheated twice while I was deployed (was military), and I suspect there was a third. We are in a bad patch now and struggling to afunderstand our situations. We do both desire to stay together and are struggling with how.
> 
> Thanks to all.


You know what would be the equivalent offense for your wife to take as a response to your porn addiction? Her being addicted to porn. It sure as hell ain't cheating. Whatever you think about it porn (not talking about live interaction like with cam girls) is still a solitary act. For the most part it takes place in your mind. You know what the equivalent offense would be as a response for your wife cheating on you twice? You ****ing two other women. I bet if you did that she would no longer thing it's the same as you looking at some computer screen. (That is not me advocating for that!) 

I am curious what would here response be to this fact? Did she go to church and repent?

I am also curious why it's hard for you to understand why you are struggling after your wife cheats on you twice? How many good marriages do you think there are after one spouse cheats twice? I mean in my mind something is wrong if you can be abused so much and yet you somehow still think you have a good marriage or even the possibility for one? I would say there is a good chance are probably suffering from PTSD or just plain delusional. 

So you both desire to stay together. I mean I guess I understand why she would, she gets to have a faithful accommodating husband and live in an open marriage, not sure why you would. Even so desiring something doesn't make it a healthy or even a happy outcome, so desiring to stay together doesn't mean you are going to be happy or it's a healthy choice. In a sense it works like cheating does and probably is the same kind of cognizant dissonance that is part of the problem. Some things and people are just toxic and not healthy for you if you goal is to have a happy healthy emotional life. Love when that is all you got is often times a terrible reason to be married especially after extreme cases of abuse which is what cheating possibly 3 times on someone is. 

Where is she on this? Does she acknowledge that she is an abuser? Do you? 

Dude you may like porn and she may have had a right to be hurt and if you want to do an eye for an eye she had the right to go watch porn too, but you are married to a abusive person and that is going to suck. Is that really that hard to understand? Even God can't help that sometimes, I think often times if there is repeated abuse like there seems to be in your situation he doesn't want to, he wants you to leave.


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## Lila

*Moderator Note*:. The point of this thread is not to debate which is worse, porn or cheating. Please refrain from doing that. 

OP, can you answer some of the questions that have been asked? It will help provide some clarity to your situation which may get you more targeted advice.


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## longint45

Sorry for the delay. I'll try and go more into the questions.

The born again Christian part was only semi related to us. It was a decision I came to for a lot of reasons and have deep convictions on. It did really help me understand my porn addiction and reach a point where it can't control me; so.ethi g years of trying and counseling couldn't do.

The two cheats I referred to that my wife committed both occurred while I was stationed (active duty military) overseas and deployed 2010-2011. One a one night stand that she confessed to and one a full blown affair that I discovered. While we did work through this, her position has always been that I was in some way responsible; a position I let her know that I did not accept and that her actions were hers alone.

My porn addiction has been off and on most of my marriage which I know has bee hard on her. The deployments, military life, have also been hard for her. 

The recent trouble started when she had some sort of flashback to my porn activities. Initially it was only a strain for us. I then accidentally discovered some texts with a local (same state) man that I felt were inappropriate. When confronted she told me she had been talking to a variety of people, men and women, trying g to understand me. I then told her she needed to stop talking to this individual which she did, but she said she was still talking to strangers on line to try and understand. This is were things began to get bad. There was now emotional distance between us. I later discovered chats with other individuals. These were mostly what she said they were, discussion s about porn addiction. I then discovered and ****** ******* account of hers (and later Friendfinder and adult friendfi der). When I confronted her her claim was that she created the accounts looking for me. She did delete the ****** ******* account. Come to find out she was still using the other accounts to talk to individuals about me and my former problem. Eventually, she forgot to close the windows on her computer and I was able to see these accounts and a secret yahoo mail account. What I aw corroborated her claim that this was only discussions about me and my former porn problem. While this was good news, it was still troubling. I told her about it (I have kept nothing secret from her). One thing to add, every question I have put to her about all this has been answered truly verified either by her showing me or my own discovery. I have gone to her and told her that talking to someone e was good but, it needed to be a trained counselor, not strangers. She has since locked her phone, has an app hider, and clears everything so as to not be seen doing it. Trouble is, we have a service to monitor our kids web activity that reveals the website visits and chats (although not the specific content of pages of discussions). I have appealed to her to seek a counselor and stop the online stuff but it continues and I believe she has developed a problem with the activity. Other problem is she has revealed just enough to some that she could be identified. The problem here is that she is the youth ministry director at our church and works with youths at ber job. I appealed to her that this getting g our would ruin our church standing, could cost her, her job, and strain our marriage to the breaking g point. Her response was that was none of my business. I replied that is was because she is my wife and I am concerned.
Over the years we have had a remarkable ability to work through problems. This in large part due to her faith. As I am now sharing this faith, it is hard to understand why she continues. I believe she knows this needs to end and that we can work it out but, I dont know how to get through to her. Our pastor has explained that often Christian spouses have difficulty when trying for years and then the other spouse suddenly comes to the faith as desired. This is odd but, seems to happen more than you woulod expect.
I know there are more q uestions but, I will stop here for now and reply more later.

Thanks again to all.


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## StillSearching

@longint45

She's not going to stop. 
How much sanity and suffering do you have left to give??


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## Marduk

longint45 said:


> Sorry for the delay. I'll try and go more into the questions.
> 
> The born again Christian part was only semi related to us. It was a decision I came to for a lot of reasons and have deep convictions on. It did really help me understand my porn addiction and reach a point where it can't control me; so.ethi g years of trying and counseling couldn't do.


That's not really an answer. Who's idea was the christian thing? What was her position on it?



> The two cheats I referred to that my wife committed both occurred while I was stationed (active duty military) overseas and deployed 2010-2011. One a one night stand that she confessed to and one a full blown affair that I discovered. While we did work through this, her position has always been that I was in some way responsible; a position I let her know that I did not accept and that her actions were hers alone.


And yet you seem to have reconciled with her. She is an unrepentant cheater that blames you for her infidelity. Why did you reconcile?

Where does your conversion fit in this timeline of events?



> My porn addiction has been off and on most of my marriage which I know has bee hard on her. The deployments, military life, have also been hard for her.


Life can be hard. For everyone. Not everyone responds to that by cheating and blaming their spouse for it.



> The recent trouble started when she had some sort of flashback to my porn activities. Initially it was only a strain for us. I then accidentally discovered some texts with a local (same state) man that I felt were inappropriate. When confronted she told me she had been talking to a variety of people, men and women, trying g to understand me. I then told her she needed to stop talking to this individual which she did, but she said she was still talking to strangers on line to try and understand. This is were things began to get bad. There was now emotional distance between us. I later discovered chats with other individuals. These were mostly what she said they were, discussion s about porn addiction. I then discovered and ****** ******* account of hers (and later Friendfinder and adult friendfi der). When I confronted her her claim was that she created the accounts looking for me. She did delete the ****** ******* account. Come to find out she was still using the other accounts to talk to individuals about me and my former problem. Eventually, she forgot to close the windows on her computer and I was able to see these accounts and a secret yahoo mail account. What I aw corroborated her claim that this was only discussions about me and my former porn problem. While this was good news, it was still troubling. I told her about it (I have kept nothing secret from her). One thing to add, every question I have put to her about all this has been answered truly verified either by her showing me or my own discovery. I have gone to her and told her that talking to someone e was good but, it needed to be a trained counselor, not strangers. She has since locked her phone, has an app hider, and clears everything so as to not be seen doing it. Trouble is, we have a service to monitor our kids web activity that reveals the website visits and chats (although not the specific content of pages of discussions). I have appealed to her to seek a counselor and stop the online stuff but it continues and I believe she has developed a problem with the activity. Other problem is she has revealed just enough to some that she could be identified. The problem here is that she is the youth ministry director at our church and works with youths at ber job. I appealed to her that this getting g our would ruin our church standing, could cost her, her job, and strain our marriage to the breaking g point. Her response was that was none of my business. I replied that is was because she is my wife and I am concerned.


Gently, that timeline does not make a lot of sense. Here's something that makes more sense:

she felt the urge to cheat again, threw her hook into the pond to fish for another guy (or two or three), you caught her, and then she said she had "flashbacks" from your porn addiction. Right?




> Over the years we have had a remarkable ability to work through problems. This in large part due to her faith. As I am now sharing this faith, it is hard to understand why she continues. I believe she knows this needs to end and that we can work it out but, I dont know how to get through to her. Our pastor has explained that often Christian spouses have difficulty when trying for years and then the other spouse suddenly comes to the faith as desired. This is odd but, seems to happen more than you woulod expect.
> I know there are more q uestions but, I will stop here for now and reply more later.
> 
> Thanks again to all.


I'm not a religious guy, although I believe in god. And I find it very interesting how religious folks tie themselves up in knots attempting to let themselves off the hook for doing things like cheating.

I think she's just rationalizing her repeated infidelities, probably is cheating on you even now, probably with more guys than you'll ever know, and has learned to hide it well with technology, guile, misdirection and religion.

So that's where you're at. You're a newfound religious dude trying to play it straight with a serial cheating wife. So here's you're options, man:

1. accept that you're in an open marriage because your wife will never be monogamous with you;

2. divorce like many other good christians and find yourself a good christian wife.

Godspeed, man. I wish you well. But every other decision you make is going to be contingent up on the one I just laid out.


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## Tilted 1

longint45 said:


> My wife and I have have various problems over 17 years. Me with and on-again off-again porn addiction (which as a recently saved Christion and counseling I am happy to say I have made permanent changes to) and my wife who cheated twice while I was deployed (was military), and I suspect there was a third. We are in a bad patch now and struggling to understand our situations. We do both desire to stay together and are struggling with how.
> 
> Thanks to all.


Well, firstly do you forgive her/can you in you in your deepest heart of hearts. She must do all and l mean ALL the work in showing she loves you and will do anything to win you back. 

You are giving her a gift by staying in the marriage with her. You need to read .....

Rebuilding Trust and Recovering Your Sanity After Infidelity
Book by Jean Coppock Staeheli and Shirley Glass

DescriptionGood people in good marriages are having affairs. Well-intentioned people who never intended to be unfaithful are unwittingly forming deep, passionate connections before they realize that they've crossed the line that separates platonic friendship from romantic love

And the cheater must do these things....

How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair - Audiobook by Linda J. MacDonald.

Your porn issues are nothing to compare to her banging the other dudes. And if f she just wants you to move on with life. BS and it smells like it too. That's called rugsweeping. Hiding it from anyone. You must expose her to everyone in her family and those who are going to help you recover, you must not hide this or when you split she will rewrites your marriage to make YOU!! look like the lowlife piece of crap. And if she tell you don't tell anyone one she's rugsweeping it then. 

Is this really where you want to go? Cheating is a character flaw she carries and it always shows back up time and time again. So is she telling you because of your porn issues. It's drove her to do this is BS. What about those mind movies that are playing in your head? Did she cheat with you closest friends? If so you are going to run the chance of her doing the same. 

Are you wanting to be the marital POLICE??? Do you think you can ever trust her to be alone while your gone anywhere? What has she told you to prove she is remorseful in betraying you this way? You are saying that your in a rough patch what exactly is that patch consist of? Are they justification for her actions? And because you won't swallow her crap is why she's creating this rough spot? 

HELP US ALL UNDERSTAND MORE?


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## sunsetmist

I am an active Christian and am divorced. Some in the church would disagree and talk about the sanctity of marriage at all costs. The Bible has another message.

Now, about you. Your wife resorts to infidelity because of her lack of character--has nothing to do with you or a porn addiction. Sounds like she has an internet addiction and diarrhea of the mouth/keyboard. More likely she thinks she will find sympathy in the type of sites she searches--or worse. Have your porn activities gone to web cam sites, escorts, strip clubs?

Sounds like she is also a liar who hides her activities from you her husband. Why? Church Youth Ministry is fulfilling, but not well-paid. She could find another job. Her pastor supports her. Why? She is setting a bad example for the kids. Do not let her blame you for her disrespect and dishonesty.

I'd suggest a non-church-based, well-qualified, individual therapist for each of you to see if there is a reason to continue the marriage.


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## farsidejunky

You actually believe she wants to save the marriage?

Her actions are saying something else entirely. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## longint45

So many good questions and it's hard to answer all of them on a phone. As soon as I can get to a computer I will answer more and better.

I can answer a few though.

First, I do agree that she has not accepted full responsibility for the two previous affairs. The first , a one night stand she gave a very heartfelt apology for. The full blown second not so much. Even now, she will say she is sorry but, still insists that she engaged in both because of what was going on with us. I always tell her that I do not accept blame and the decision and actions were entirely hers. Usually I get no response to this. I have also told her that I consider all this current texting with strangers to be a texting affair, regardless of whether it's with one individual or a bunch and regardless of whether there is any explicit talk, meeting, or it just stays as conversations about nothing for a while then moving on. One thing about what I have seen in the conversations I found and read is that she is rejecting the idea of anything but talk and that what she has told me about them is true. What I have tried to explain to her, and am concerned about, is the conversations becoming too familiar. She is a good hearted person who would give the shirt off her back to help others but, this characteristic can work against her. I do think she has developed an addiction to this chatting and dont know if anyone can help her understand that.

Her position. As the youth ministry leader is voluntary for spare time. We are both engaged in our church in this way. I do not understand how she can surf these adult sites, chatting with them, then teach young children about God a few days later. His us not her. I know she is having some sort of faith crisis but, she has even expressed concern that if our pastor finds out she will be removed. This tells me that on some level she knows this is wrong.

I have also asked how she feels anything anyone on these sites tells her is true. These individuals are on these sites, lying to their spouses or SOs about it. If they are lying to important people, why would it bother them to lie to her. In view of this, what besides none, kind of benefit does she think this has towards understanding me and my former addiction? The answer is clearly there is no value. Why wouldn't she understand this? She is very smart and ordinarily would get it. 

My religious convictions are solid, despite my recent conversion. I have surrounded myself with individuals in the church I know I can trust. In light of this, it is my genuine desire to help her but, we must both commit to working on this and to complete openness. My religious feelings also make me want to help her. Her background is the daughter of a pastor. Her parents are both active Christian's. Her mother is aware of what is going on and has been a source of support. For the moment, I believe we can get our marriage straightened out but a lot will depend on how things play out in the next few weeks. Most of those she is talking to, to includes close friends, are unaware of her chatting with people from adults sites. I am aware I am being g painted I a bad light to them and that they have an incomplete picture.

I'll write more later.

Thanks to all for your feedback. It helps.


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## longint45

You're right. Her actions are saying something different. She is aware that I know, that it is hurting me, that I can see when she is doing it, yet continues doing it even knowing it is hurting me and only further damaging our chances of working things out.


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## BluesPower

longint45 said:


> You're right. Her actions are saying something different. She is aware that I know, that it is hurting me, that I can see when she is doing it, yet continues doing it even knowing it is hurting me and only further damaging our chances of working things out.


Dude, wake the **** up already, please. 

You know about one full blown affair that YOU rug swept. You know about ONE ONS???? Really, and you don't think she is still cheating? You think you know about all of is? Really? 

I mean, what do you hope to accomplish with all of the weakness and vacillation? What would you say to one of your men that came to you with similar problems? 

Oh, just stick your head in the sand and maybe it will go away?????

Why are you allowing all of the Bull to continue? What are you afraid of? Do you think you could never find another women, EVER???? 

She has less than ZERO respect for you, and NO LOVE what so ever. Why are you staying with her? 

Please take your head out of the sand...


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## sunsetmist

Perhaps, if you tell her that you re going to talk to your pastor--with or without her--that would be enough motivation for her to stop.

Addictions do not stop without hard work or enough motivation.


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## Tilted 1

longint45 said:


> Sorry for the delay. I'll try and go more into the questions.
> 
> The born again Christian part was only semi related to us. It was a decision I came to for a lot of reasons and have deep convictions on. It did really help me understand my porn addiction and reach a point where it can't control me; so.ethi g years of trying and counseling couldn't do.
> 
> The two cheats I referred to that my wife committed both occurred while I was stationed (active duty military) overseas and deployed 2010-2011. One a one night stand that she confessed to and one a full blown affair that I discovered. While we did work through this, her position has always been that I was in some way responsible; a position I let her know that I did not accept and that her actions were hers alone.
> 
> My porn addiction has been off and on most of my marriage which I know has bee hard on her. The deployments, military life, have also been hard for her.
> 
> The recent trouble started when she had some sort of flashback to my porn activities. Initially it was only a strain for us. I then accidentally discovered some texts with a local (same state) man that I felt were inappropriate. When confronted she told me she had been talking to a variety of people, men and women, trying g to understand me. I then told her she needed to stop talking to this individual which she did, but she said she was still talking to strangers on line to try and understand. This is were things began to get bad. There was now emotional distance between us. I later discovered chats with other individuals. These were mostly what she said they were, discussion s about porn addiction. I then discovered and ****** ******* account of hers (and later Friendfinder and adult friendfi der). When I confronted her her claim was that she created the accounts looking for me. She did delete the ****** ******* account. Come to find out she was still using the other accounts to talk to individuals about me and my former problem. Eventually, she forgot to close the windows on her computer and I was able to see these accounts and a secret yahoo mail account. What I aw corroborated her claim that this was only discussions about me and my former porn problem. While this was good news, it was still troubling. I told her about it (I have kept nothing secret from her). One thing to add, every question I have put to her about all this has been answered truly verified either by her showing me or my own discovery. I have gone to her and told her that talking to someone e was good but, it needed to be a trained counselor, not strangers. She has since locked her phone, has an app hider, and clears everything so as to not be seen doing it. Trouble is, we have a service to monitor our kids web activity that reveals the website visits and chats (although not the specific content of pages of discussions). I have appealed to her to seek a counselor and stop the online stuff but it continues and I believe she has developed a problem with the activity. Other problem is she has revealed just enough to some that she could be identified. The problem here is that she is the youth ministry director at our church and works with youths at ber job. I appealed to her that this getting g our would ruin our church standing, could cost her, her job, and strain our marriage to the breaking g point. Her response was that was none of my business. I replied that is was because she is my wife and I am concerned.
> Over the years we have had a remarkable ability to work through problems. This in large part due to her faith. As I am now sharing this faith, it is hard to understand why she continues. I believe she knows this needs to end and that we can work it out but, I dont know how to get through to her. Our pastor has explained that often Christian spouses have difficulty when trying for years and then the other spouse suddenly comes to the faith as desired. This is odd but, seems to happen more than you woulod expect.
> I know there are more q uestions but, I will stop here for now and reply more later.
> 
> Thanks again to all.



She's full of it!!! And it isn't goodness or faith in the traditional sense. She must be exposed to the church and what once was is no longer this includes your MARRIAGE. It can not ever be what it once was!! Take the consequences of her actions or your new faith is already lying to the Holy one. Regardless it must be make public to the elders if the church. If your church is authentic they will have a way to forgive her


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## farsidejunky

longint45 said:


> So many good questions and it's hard to answer all of them on a phone. As soon as I can get to a computer I will answer more and better.
> 
> I can answer a few though.
> 
> First, I do agree that she has not accepted full responsibility for the two previous affairs. The first , a one night stand she gave a very heartfelt apology for. The full blown second not so much. Even now, she will say she is sorry but, still insists that she engaged in both because of what was going on with us. I always tell her that I do not accept blame and the decision and actions were entirely hers. Usually I get no response to this. I have also told her that I consider all this current texting with strangers to be a texting affair, regardless of whether it's with one individual or a bunch and regardless of whether there is any explicit talk, meeting, or it just stays as conversations about nothing for a while then moving on. One thing about what I have seen in the conversations I found and read is that she is rejecting the idea of anything but talk and that what she has told me about them is true. What I have tried to explain to her, and am concerned about, is the conversations becoming too familiar. She is a good hearted person who would give the shirt off her back to help others but, this characteristic can work against her. I do think she has developed an addiction to this chatting and dont know if anyone can help her understand that.
> 
> Her position. As the youth ministry leader is voluntary for spare time. We are both engaged in our church in this way. I do not understand how she can surf these adult sites, chatting with them, then teach young children about God a few days later. His us not her. I know she is having some sort of faith crisis but, she has even expressed concern that if our pastor finds out she will be removed. This tells me that on some level she knows this is wrong.
> 
> I have also asked how she feels anything anyone on these sites tells her is true. These individuals are on these sites, lying to their spouses or SOs about it. If they are lying to important people, why would it bother them to lie to her. In view of this, what besides none, kind of benefit does she think this has towards understanding me and my former addiction? The answer is clearly there is no value. Why wouldn't she understand this? She is very smart and ordinarily would get it.
> 
> My religious convictions are solid, despite my recent conversion. I have surrounded myself with individuals in the church I know I can trust. In light of this, it is my genuine desire to help her but, we must both commit to working on this and to complete openness. My religious feelings also make me want to help her. Her background is the daughter of a pastor. Her parents are both active Christian's. Her mother is aware of what is going on and has been a source of support. For the moment, I believe we can get our marriage straightened out but a lot will depend on how things play out in the next few weeks. Most of those she is talking to, to includes close friends, are unaware of her chatting with people from adults sites. I am aware I am being g painted I a bad light to them and that they have an incomplete picture.
> 
> I'll write more later.
> 
> Thanks to all for your feedback. It helps.


The pastor needs to know.

As someone who has been the head of a church leadership team (equivalent of a deacon), I can tell you unequivocally that the leadership will want to know. 

Stop being complicit in hiding her affair. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Tilted 1

longint45 said:


> .
> 
> The two cheats I referred to that my wife committed both occurred while I was stationed (active duty military) overseas and deployed 2010-2011.
> 
> One a one night stand that she confessed to and one a full blown affair that I discovered.
> 
> While we did work through this, her position has always been that I was in some way responsible;
> 
> 
> Over the years we have had a remarkable ability to work through problems.
> 
> Our pastor has explained that often Christian spouses have difficulty when trying for years and then the other spouse suddenly comes to the faith as desired.
> 
> This is odd but, seems to happen more than you woulod expect.
> 
> .


So, it's as if one time wasn't enough to scratch her itch that she had a full blown one to boot and you suspecting a third. Pf course she wants to blame you for everything. 

You have never worked it out only rugswept it. 

And for the pastor, how enlightening of him he's not got his act together. Call it what it is infidilty to the extreme, not because her husband came to the faith. Where is his responsibility, to have her own this. Man your fighting a up hill battle all the way. Don't believe the pastor he doesn't know what he is talking about. Because he's a pastor don't mean he has the right answers. He's not God nor can he absolve her, she needs to make amends and show contrition for her laying on her back for who ever she chooses. 

I feel for you my man, but eating crap doesn't prove you to be a man, standing with integrity and owning your flaws like you have done here.

But in no way are you responsible for her.


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## Marduk

longint45 said:


> So many good questions and it's hard to answer all of them on a phone. As soon as I can get to a computer I will answer more and better.
> 
> I can answer a few though.
> 
> First, I do agree that she has not accepted full responsibility for the two previous affairs. The first , a one night stand she gave a very heartfelt apology for. The full blown second not so much. Even now, she will say she is sorry but, still insists that she engaged in both because of *what was going on with us.*


Define please - as explicitly as your are comfortable. But please detail. It feels like you're dancing around something here, and it's hard to give you advice while guessing.



> I always tell her that I do not accept blame and the decision and actions were entirely hers. *Usually I get no response to this.*


And yet, here you are, reconciling with someone that accepts no accountability for her actions. There's a term for this: a false reconciliation. These are often even more painful and traumatic than the originating infidelity. They usually end with even more cheating, even more attempts at reconciliation, and then divorcing. With a lot more trauma on both sides.
https://www.emotionalaffair.org/false-reconciliation-perhaps-devastating-d-day/

This work is hard and takes integrity. It sounds like your wife doesn't like to work hard and has no integrity. You cannot do this alone.



> I have also told her that I consider all this current texting with strangers to be a texting affair, regardless of whether it's with one individual or a bunch and regardless of whether there is any explicit talk, meeting, or it just stays as conversations about nothing for a while then moving on. One thing about what I have seen in the conversations I found and read is that she is rejecting the idea of anything but talk and that what she has told me about them is true. What I have tried to explain to her, and am concerned about, is the conversations becoming too familiar. She is a good hearted person who would give the shirt off her back to help others but, this characteristic can work against her. I do think she has developed an addiction to this chatting and dont know if anyone can help her understand that.


She literally does not care what you think is cheating and isn't, and if it's wrong or not.



> Her position. As the youth ministry leader is voluntary for spare time. We are both engaged in our church in this way. I do not understand how she can surf these adult sites, chatting with them, then teach young children about God a few days later. His us not her. I know she is having some sort of faith crisis but, she has even expressed concern that if our pastor finds out she will be removed. This tells me that on some level she knows this is wrong.


I know the feeling. I once helped build a dojo, then the head instructor cheated on his girlfriend with a female student. And I couldn't sit there and watch that instructor lecture students about bushido, which literally starts with gi (righteousness). I couldn't take it, so I resigned from the board, stopped teaching or attending classes there, and even though it meant the loss of something I spent years helping build and have lost friends, I had to be true to myself.

So I guess what I'm recommending is for you to be true to yourself.

Integrity is that which no man can either give you or take from you. You can only give it to yourself, or give it away. Do you feel a sense of integrity being married to your wife?


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## Marduk

longint45 said:


> You're right. Her actions are saying something different. She is aware that I know, that it is hurting me, that I can see when she is doing it, yet continues doing it even knowing it is hurting me and only further damaging our chances of working things out.


You need a new mantra:

"She does not care."

You need to accept this. She may want to stay married to you because of what you provide, or it gives her a well-defined role, or gives her respectability or whatever. But she wants her side dudes, and thinks she has a right to them. And literally does not care if that hurts you.

My ex was the same way. She was baffled why other people tried to bring how I'd feel about her behaviour into the equation. It literally did not matter to her. I couldn't change it about her. 

But I could accept it, and then act based upon that acceptance.


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## Marduk

sunsetmist said:


> Perhaps, if you tell her that you re going to talk to your pastor--with or without her--that would be enough motivation for her to stop.
> 
> Addictions do not stop without hard work or enough motivation.


Affairs that only stop because they get policed aren't really stopped at all. You can't police someone or shame someone into having integrity. At best, you'll get smug sanctimoniousness and at worst they'll just hide it better and pretend they're righteous.

You have to have what it takes to do the right thing even when it's hard and when nobody's watching. 

Go ahead and tell the pastor - if it helps you and your church, OP. It will not help her.


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## longint45

I can't believe she did this.

Yesterday evening, we were sharing a relatively calm friendly moment. She needed some things from the store which I got. Her back was sore and I massaged it for her. We talked about various things. As the following day was my birthday, I requested a low key family meal & game night. I also requested she take a ONE day break from the chatting on line, which she agreed to. We shared a pleasant bit sipping tea and watching TV after which I went to bed (1130 ish). I checked web activity around 1:30 am and nothing. It seemed she was working with me. Around 2:30 (now the date was my birthday) and I checked again. This time I discovered activity on the adult sites and chatting. When she came to bed I asked her if she was went to the sites and chatted. She replied yes. I asked her about the agreement. She replied that it technically wasn't my birthday yet. I explained to her that it was. I then told her that she had a problem with compulsive inappropriate browsing & chatting, then left to sleep on the couch. I was going to take a weekend trip but circumstances dictated otherwise. So, I am taking some family/friends to dinner & a movie; and have no intention of inviting her.

I know she needs to decide if ruining her job, church/social life, and family is worth risking over something so pointless. At this point, it seems as though it is.

I am at a point where I really don't care what she does, she just needs to decide or, I will make the decision for her. If made for her, she will lose everything.

Oh, and yesterday, after spend 4+ hours, in the wee morning, browsing adult sites and chatting; then in the evening teaching 2-5 year olds about Christianity and the Bible. I just don't get HOW ON EARTH this doesn't create a moral/ethical demila for her. She was NEVER previously like this.

I just don't get any of this and am about to take a VERY hard line for her to shape up or get out.


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## Marduk

longint45 said:


> I can't believe she did this.
> 
> Yesterday evening, we were sharing a relatively calm friendly moment. She needed some things from the store which I got. Her back was sore and I massaged it for her. We talked about various things. As the following day was my birthday, I requested a low key family meal & game night. I also requested she take a ONE day break from the chatting on line, which she agreed to. We shared a pleasant bit sipping tea and watching TV after which I went to bed (1130 ish). I checked web activity around 1:30 am and nothing. It seemed she was working with me. Around 2:30 (now the date was my birthday) and I checked again. This time I discovered activity on the adult sites and chatting. When she came to bed I asked her if she was went to the sites and chatted. She replied yes. I asked her about the agreement. She replied that it technically wasn't my birthday yet. I explained to her that it was. I then told her that she had a problem with compulsive inappropriate browsing & chatting, then left to sleep on the couch. I was going to take a weekend trip but circumstances dictated otherwise. So, I am taking some family/friends to dinner & a movie; and have no intention of inviting her.
> 
> I know she needs to decide if ruining her job, church/social life, and family is worth risking over something so pointless. At this point, it seems as though it is.
> 
> I am at a point where I really don't care what she does, she just needs to decide or, I will make the decision for her. If made for her, she will lose everything.
> 
> Oh, and yesterday, after spend 4+ hours, in the wee morning, browsing adult sites and chatting; then in the evening teaching 2-5 year olds about Christianity and the Bible. I just don't get HOW ON EARTH this doesn't create a moral/ethical demila for her. She was NEVER previously like this.
> 
> I just don't get any of this and am about to take a VERY hard line for her to shape up or get out.


Let me game this out for you.

If you draw a line in the sand she's gonna make you the bad guy. You're controlling, you're possessive, you don't trust me, you haven't forgiven me... 

If you stick to your guns, and she complies, you're going to have to police her. She's going to test boundaries and find ways to sneak around you, get it on, and get out without you knowing. It will be a game to her, and one that even if you win, you lose - because you're going to have to police her forever.

So an ultimatum is a no win scenario.

So, drop a nuke instead. Tell the pastor. Tell her family. Tell your friends. And tell her that you are 100% done.

In this way, you can move on and find someone with integrity. Or, she can do the work to become someone of integrity on her own, and you can judge for yourself the results of this. But there won't be a game. You win either way.


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## farsidejunky

Why would she think she's at risk of ruining what you mentioned?

She believes you lack the fortitude to hold her accountable.

And you know what? She's 100% right.

Until then, it's business as usual for her.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## BluesPower

longint45 said:


> I can't believe she did this.
> 
> Yesterday evening, we were sharing a relatively calm friendly moment. She needed some things from the store which I got. Her back was sore and I massaged it for her. We talked about various things. As the following day was my birthday, I requested a low key family meal & game night. I also requested she take a ONE day break from the chatting on line, which she agreed to. We shared a pleasant bit sipping tea and watching TV after which I went to bed (1130 ish). I checked web activity around 1:30 am and nothing. It seemed she was working with me. Around 2:30 (now the date was my birthday) and I checked again. This time I discovered activity on the adult sites and chatting. When she came to bed I asked her if she was went to the sites and chatted. She replied yes. I asked her about the agreement. She replied that it technically wasn't my birthday yet. I explained to her that it was. I then told her that she had a problem with compulsive inappropriate browsing & chatting, then left to sleep on the couch. I was going to take a weekend trip but circumstances dictated otherwise. So, I am taking some family/friends to dinner & a movie; and have no intention of inviting her.
> 
> I know she needs to decide if ruining her job, church/social life, and family is worth risking over something so pointless. At this point, it seems as though it is.
> 
> I am at a point where I really don't care what she does, she just needs to decide or, I will make the decision for her. If made for her, she will lose everything.
> 
> Oh, and yesterday, after spend 4+ hours, in the wee morning, browsing adult sites and chatting; then in the evening teaching 2-5 year olds about Christianity and the Bible. I just don't get HOW ON EARTH this doesn't create a moral/ethical demila for her. She was NEVER previously like this.
> 
> I just don't get any of this and am about to take a VERY hard line for her to shape up or get out.


Really, YOU CANT BELIEVE THIS... Dude she has been doing this stuff for your whole marriage, YOUR WHOLE MARRIAGE...

YOU CANT BELIEVE THIS??? 

Are you reading what you have written. Why is this a surprise in any way. 

You simply must wake up and understand that your WIFE does not love you if she ever did... 

Why are you putting yourself through this????


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## Tilted 1

Mesmerizing, is where you at at, she's already chosen the answer you seek, why are you not listening to her? Bust this thing down, get real and then pick up the pieces. Game over, or are you going to start another game where no matter how hard you try you still end up losing.


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## colingrant

*We do both desire to stay together and are struggling with how.
*
Well for you, staying together should mean establishing conditions for marital fidelity otherwise there is no relationship to speak of really. If she wants to be together, you'll quickly find out if she's willing and capable of adhering to your imposed conditions for proceeding forward with her. It's two ways. You have to set the conditions and she has to agree. If she can't agree to you doing the work and actions that will enable you to build trust , then she has no respect for you or the marriage. Her agreeing to conditions will allow you to see what you have to work with. Nothing threatens a relationship more than one of the spouses allowing a 3rd person to join it. 

If she really wishes to stay together she'll gladly adhere to conditions to restore your trust and regain your respect for her as a devoted wife. If not, her actions will not match her words and you'll know you do not have the pillars in place for a real relationship. It's all about the actions, not the promises. She has to agree to them and you have enforce them without compromise. Infidelity is a powerful force that can only be overcome with tenacity and conviction, because those in infidelity are tenacious in there efforts to sustain it, as both experience addiction like spells.


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## colingrant

*I am at a point where I really don't care what she does, she just needs to decide or, I will make the decision for her. If made for her, she will lose everything.*

You're already at the point of having to decide. She's not going to because she's having fun. Ever try to stop kids when they're playing so that you can leave or they have to start homework or something? Sometimes they don't stop to verbal commands, until you are impassioned and enforce consequences. Otherwise, they'll just keep playing. Adults are like this too.


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## pbj2016

longint45 said:


> I can't believe she did this.
> 
> 
> 
> ....This time I discovered activity on the adult sites and chatting.....
> 
> 
> I am at a point where I really don't care what she does, she just needs to decide or, I will make the decision for her. If made for her, she will lose....
> 
> 
> 
> I just don't get any of this and am about to take a VERY hard line for her to shape up or get out.



I cut some of your post out so I wasn’t quoting all of it. 

Can you explain what you mean by going to adult websites and chatting? You believe it to not be anything more than her talking about your porn addiction? Or am I misunderstanding? 

It sounds like she is able to make compartmentalizations that allows her to be a a godly woman to 4 and 5 years olds and something else the rest of the time. That might explain why she is ok with having affairs and not be broken over it once the limerence is gone.


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## MattMatt

pbj2016 said:


> I cut some of your post out so I wasn’t quoting all of it.
> 
> Can you explain what you mean by going to adult websites and chatting? You believe it to not be anything more than her talking about your porn addiction? Or am I misunderstanding?
> 
> It sounds like she is able to make compartmentalizations that allows her to be a a godly woman to 4 and 5 years olds and something else the rest of the time. That might explain why she is ok with having affairs and not be broken over it once the limerence is gone.


:iagree:

What type of "adult" sites are they? We don't need the URLs, but, in general, what are those sites intended for? Good or ill?


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