# What's in it for men in Marriages?



## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

Do we, as women in marriages, have a sense of entitlement, which says once married, we are entitled to:
Be loved
Be adored
Be protected
Gets gifts
Be romanced
Be obeyed 
Be provided for 
All without question or reciprocation or showing any appreciation to our husbands. Also without supporting his emotional or psychological state of environment (the home) and we call this entitlement UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. 
Can our men survive this kind of entitlement?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

MaiChi said:


> we call this entitlement UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.
> Can our men survive this kind of entitlement?


I don't think so. We are all human and we are bound to fail, because we all have flaws. The institution of marriage is based on giving and taking. That said, I'm sure there are men who can give unconditional love. I like the idea, anyway.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

There's no such thing as unconditional love in humans. My wife is my best friend and we love each other deeply, but it has its limits. Men that "love unconditionally " are door mats. If unconditional love is what you're after, get a dog.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Our Reverend happily struck the word 'obey' from our marriage vows. Our men can survive the other six components of marriage as long as they are reciprocal and appreciation and gratitude for having them in our lives is displayed regularly. The same goes for women surviving the entitlements of marriage.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

MaiChi said:


> Can our men survive this kind of entitlement?


Yes, we can, and do. "Survival" is accurate. Grudgingly, after we figure out that it's an entitlement, the reason you married us. We accept that we are a "settle", an appliance . We view the marriage as completely one-sided.

We get completely sick of hearing "...thank you for doing that...", it's so disingenuously "token", every time I hear that, I get furious. Please, spare me... and,, please, please, spare me your "concern" for "my health".... you couldn't ****ing care less about my "health", you only don't want to have your life interrupted. I don't need a mother.... don't worry, I'll just call Uber to bring me home from the hospital. Believe me.... I will enjoy some time in which I can watch TV and surf the net without listening to you ***** and complain about how bad your life is.

And, I got more news..... I am pushing 69 years old, I have diabetes, heart failure and mild kidney disease. My ejection fraction is 40. I am ALWAYS going to be out of breath after a walk. The next major health event in my life will require the coroner to bring a bag. No doctor has any pill that will make me 45. All the solutions to YOUR problems will have to come from someone else.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

@TJW ,that anger and bitterness will be the death of you, yet. At least she tries to make the noises of concern and gratitude. That has to count for something.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Sbrown said:


> There's no such thing as unconditional love in humans. My wife is my best friend and we love each other deeply, but it has its limits. Men that "love unconditionally " are door mats. If unconditional love is what you're after, get a dog.


I think it's a kind of "philosophical" attitude, a bit like the worship of beauty in Renaissance times. From this point of view, it's not matter of being a doormat. It's a stance. In modern times, it's pretty much impossible to achieve.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

I think men expect that good sex will be part of their marriage so that's what's in it for them. Many (if not "most") become sadly disappointed in that expectation.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MaiChi said:


> Do we, as women in marriages, have a sense of entitlement, which says once married, we are entitled to:
> Be loved
> Be adored
> Be protected
> ...


I cant relate to what you have written. No I dont have a sense of entitlement, certainly as you describe. I see it as very important how I treat him, not focusing on how he treats me, thats for him to do. Its also a 2 way thing, I need to treat him with love and respect as well.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I strongly believe that _no one_, man or woman, should be expected to provide all those things without reciprocation or appreciation. If anyone is in a marriage where they're expected to do all the giving while their partner does all the taking, they should get some help with improving their self-esteem and boundaries so they can either change that dynamic or get out of that relationship. If anyone is in a marriage where they do all the taking while their partner does all the giving, they should expect to eventually wind up alone. 

Entitlement isn't okay, for either sex.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

TJW said:


> Yes, we can, and do. "Survival" is accurate. Grudgingly, after we figure out that it's an entitlement, the reason you married us. We accept that we are a "settle", an appliance . We view the marriage as completely one-sided.


Ach, this hurts to read.
I have visited this pain of yours, whilst here on TAM, some while before.

Unconditional love comes from good dogs and humans who cannot stand up, as equals.

Even good dogs find themselves neutered, even that joy taken from them.

So too, this neutering, from some good male humans. 

Men find themselves symbolically circumcised at birth, yay, a good percentage cut off from sexual pleasure after marriage.

Dogs have less senses about them, hence less choices. 
They could run away.
Some do.

Human's have choices. 
They too, can run away.

They will have to feed, and fend for themselves. 

Intimacy was absent before, now, it will be officially lost.

Lost, absent, if and until a new mistress pats your head and maybe warms, with her hands your forgotten balls.

The balls that have hung out in the open, in that cold breeze, for seemingly ages.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

MaiChi said:


> Do we, as women in marriages, have a sense of entitlement, which says once married, we are entitled to:
> Be loved
> Be adored
> Be protected
> ...


A husband doesn't have to obey. This was never a command to husbands. We were commanded to love our wives. Likewise, wives are supposed to honor and obey.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

If you will indulge me a bit. My marriage was in a religion you know little about. The vows are very different. There are four promises we make. The actual words of the promise are not really all that clear, and it has taken me quite some time to understand them. I'll spell them out here for your understanding. Also note that men and women make the same commitments.

one, Faithfulness to God and each other. Point two will clarify that this is not just a promise not to commit adultery but rather to place each other first in priority.
two, Confine our intimate and sexual relations to each other. This prohibition is the prohibition of Adultery, but also a promise to keep our personal secrets together and not to share them with any others.
three, To live in ways that contribute to happy and successful family life.
four, To have children.

Now when we look at Mai Chi's list of entitlements,


MaiChi said:


> Be loved
> Be adored
> Be protected
> Gets gifts
> ...


Most of that falls under number three, to live in ways that contribute to happy and successful family life. It should be easy at this point to develop a list of expectations that men might have that would contribute to a happy family life. 

The specific lists will probably vary a lot from couple to couple, as they do from culture to culture or even from religion to religion. The Law can not possibly cover the needs of varied individuals. But every married person has a right to expect a happy and successful family life. Whatever the shape of that family may be.

On a personal note. strictly observing points 2 and 4 will not make a spouse happy. 1 and 3 are the guts of a successful relationship. 2 and 4 follow naturally from observing 1 and 3. Failure to observe one and three are the trouble in my relationship.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Mr. Nail said:


> If you will indulge me a bit. My marriage was in a religion you know little about. The vows are very different. There are four promises we make. The actual words of the promise are not really all that clear, and it has taken me quite some time to understand them. I'll spell them out here for your understanding. Also note that men and women make the same commitments.
> 
> one, Faithfulness to God and each other. Point two will clarify that this is not just a promise not to commit adultery but rather to place each other first in priority.
> two, Confine our intimate and sexual relations to each other. This prohibition is the prohibition of Adultery, but also a promise to keep our personal secrets together and not to share them with any others.
> ...


I had issues with one, two AND three, so I’m glad I’m OUT!


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

MaiChi said:


> Do we, as women in marriages, have a sense of entitlement, which says once married, we are entitled to:
> Be loved
> Be adored
> Be protected
> ...


No.

And what's this unconditional love thing?

Abuse me yet I still must love you??

Snort. Not. 😂😂😂


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

We only married for some practical benefits as our relationship was already great. Our vows only said we'd stay together as long as we both love each other. Neither of us is willing to stay in a relationship if we're taken for granted, not treated kindly, or lacks sex.


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## So Married (Dec 18, 2020)

Wow, I don't agree with the premise at all. 

These are perks of a good relationship, and should apply to both parties (well, except for the "obey" part). They are not entitlements, and certainly shouldn't be one-sided. Who decided that women in general make such demands and give nothing in return? 

It goes both ways. 



TJW said:


> Yes, we can, and do. "Survival" is accurate. Grudgingly, after we figure out that it's an entitlement, the reason you married us. We accept that we are a "settle", an appliance . We view the marriage as completely one-sided.


I'm sorry to see that you are in such pain. I hope you find peace.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

MaiChi said:


> Do we, as women in marriages, have a sense of entitlement, which says once married, we are entitled to:
> Be loved
> Be adored
> Be protected
> ...


OP, if this is what you think marriage is about, perhaps you could use a perception change.

It's a woman of very very very poor character to expect this, and a man who is codependent and an absolute doormat to give it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

In general if your thought about marriage is - what's in it for me, your doing it wrong. You marry someone because you love them and want to give yourself to them.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

MaiChi said:


> Do we, as women in marriages, have a sense of entitlement, which says once married, we are entitled to:
> Be loved
> Be adored
> Be protected
> ...


I think there are men and women who fit the attitude you describe. I also think the divorce rate is also around 50%.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

MaiChi said:


> Be obeyed


😆 ...chance would be a fine thing! I kid.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

MaiChi said:


> Do we, as women in marriages, have a sense of entitlement, which says once married, we are entitled to:


Entitlement ...what a word/concept. Makes me just think 'Act your age, not your shoe size..'

The premise also paints the spouse on the receiving end (of neglect) as a victim.

To me, relationships are about growth... within ourselves and with each other. There's a sharing that occurs as part of that.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

sokillme said:


> In general if your thought about marriage is - what's in it for me, your doing it wrong. You marry someone because you love them and want to give yourself to them.


Agreed. Unless you have to give until it hurts without reasonable reciprocation. Then you're just a chump who's being used.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

I copied the list from a book I was reading, which is about marriages and "How to look after and feed your husband", which I only read because it separated looking after and feeding, which I was curious about. I was written by a lady doctor in New York (America culture I presume). She was doing a radio show in her spare time, advising women on how to mend their marriages by examining their general behaviours in marriage compared to their husband's needs. She Carried out case studies of specific women who called the show to ask for advice on their failing marriages and concluded that the main issue was a sense of entitlement on that list, and the women had no idea that their husbands were also entitled to something similar which the wives has to contribute to the marriages. 

I found myself asking if there was anything in my marriage which I treat as an entitlement. 

One of the behaviours i found listed was that a few wives who work part time or do not work at all engineered getting out of cooking by simply cooking bad food so their husbands would not ever like their cooking. Then they can say they cannot cook or the husband does not like their cooking. Cooking Case closed. So either the man cooks or they have a take out regularly. She also explained that she is not saying wives should cook. She is only explaining how some wives get out of cooking and other functions by doing them badly so the man hates their outputs. 

When I put the list here I was expecting everyone to say the men are entitled to the same list.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

MaiChi said:


> I copied the list from a book I was reading, which is about marriages and "How to look after and feed your husband", which I only read because it separated looking after and feeding, which I was curious about. I was written by a lady doctor in New York (America culture I presume). She was doing a radio show in her spare time, advising women on how to mend their marriages by examining their general behaviours in marriage compared to their husband's needs. She Carried out case studies of specific women who called the show to ask for advice on their failing marriages and concluded that the main issue was a sense of entitlement on that list, and the women had no idea that their husbands were also entitled to something similar which the wives has to contribute to the marriages.
> 
> I found myself asking if there was anything in my marriage which I treat as an entitlement.
> 
> ...


Was the book written by Dr. Laura Schlessinger? I don't know a single person who finds that sanctimonious hypocrite credible.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> Was the book written by Dr. Laura Schlessinger? I don't know a single person who finds that sanctimonious hypocrite credible.


I think that was her name. I found myself wondering whether I live in a different reality or whether my culture is so far from the American culture.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

MaiChi said:


> *One of the behaviours i found listed was that a few wives who work part time or do not work at all engineered getting out of cooking by simply cooking bad food so their husbands would not ever like their cooking. Then they can say they cannot cook or the husband does not like their cooking. Cooking Case closed. So either the man cooks or they have a take out regularly. *She also explained that she is not saying wives should cook. She is only explaining how some wives get out of cooking and other functions by doing them badly so the man hates their outputs.


In fairness, I've known a good number of men who've done the same or similar. They intentionally, usually through feigned helplessness, make such a muddle of doing a chore that their wife gets exasperated and takes it over so it's done properly, or at all. The dishes, the laundry, childcare, cleaning, managing appointments for the kids, etc.. 

So, that's not just a woman thing. 

In either case, it's a way to get out of an equitable share of workload in the relationship. And it's not something that should be acceptable to either partner. Relationships work better with two fully functional contributing adults.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Rowan said:


> In fairness, I've known a good number of men who've done the same or similar. They intentionally, usually through feigned helplessness, make such a muddle of doing a chore that their wife gets exasperated and takes it over so it's done properly, or at all. The dishes, the laundry, childcare, cleaning, managing appointments for the kids, etc..
> 
> So, that's not just a woman thing.
> 
> In either case, it's a way to get out of an equitable share of workload in the relationship. And it's not something that should be acceptable to either partner. Relationships work better with two fully functional contributing adults.


My ex-husband, at the end of our long and dysfunctional marriage, kinda/sorta admitted he had done that. I had known that was the case for decades and he always denied it. I guess as he was finally walking out the door he felt he could finally half-way acknowledge that, yeah, he really did mess up everything so he wouldn’t have to do anything.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> Was the book written by Dr. Laura Schlessinger? I don't know a single person who finds that sanctimonious hypocrite credible.


She understands men in general better than any woman i know of. She can be harsh on women with flippant attitudes and calls them on their crap.

However she needs to understand delay on calls. Not everybody is trying to talk over her.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

MaiChi said:


> I copied the list from a book I was reading, which is about marriages and "How to look after and feed your husband", which I only read because it separated looking after and feeding, which I was curious about. I was written by a lady doctor in New York (America culture I presume). She was doing a radio show in her spare time, advising women on how to mend their marriages by examining their general behaviours in marriage compared to their husband's needs. She Carried out case studies of specific women who called the show to ask for advice on their failing marriages and concluded that the main issue was a sense of entitlement on that list, and the women had no idea that their husbands were also entitled to something similar which the wives has to contribute to the marriages.
> 
> I found myself asking if there was anything in my marriage which I treat as an entitlement.
> 
> ...


People half the time do not read the question you ask, they just assume you are making a statement.
I have sirus in my truck to listen to her show. She calls people on their crap and has an uncanny understanding of men in general. She is getting a little long in the tooth and occasionally responds to people in a way that i think is uncalled for.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Rowan said:


> They intentionally, usually through feigned helplessness, make such a muddle of doing a chore that their wife gets exasperated and takes it over so it's done properly


Well vacuuming the floor north to south instead of east to west doesn't count. Also violating any 1 of the 52 laws of dishwasher loading.
Or perhaps I'm just justifying my refusal to fold towels in the "one true pattern" during the first three yeas of marriage. 

I'll give Dr. Laura as much credit as Esther Perel, even though I read Esther and not Laura. I do have a spare credit and could listen to
The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands. 

@MaiChi I think men are as entitled as women but I think the list differs. I think that it does no harm to consider what actions your spouse is expecting.
With the following cautions:


desires or expectations are not demands, or contractual obligations.


these expectations should be limited to things that do contribute to a happy and successful marriage or family life.
[*]expectations are much more likely to be met when they are communicated clearly.



Almost every relationship problem we discuss here has to do with an expectation.
Either an expectation that is never met, or an expectation that we feel is unreasonable to ask.

Let's revisit the list.
Be loved
Be adored
Be protected
Gets gifts
Be romanced
Be obeyed
Be provided for

Well we've seen plenty of kickback over "Be Obeyed" Men and women believe that this is an unreasonable expectation. Yet historically it was written right into wedding vows (universally accepted).
It has come to my attention that many people desire avoidance of adultery, way more than to "Be Loved". I'm surprised at how little importance it has.
To "Be Adored" or as the men would say to "Be Admired", tends to be one of the one way ones. Men are being conditioned not to expect this. In fact the despise of man is the national sport.
To "Be Protected" . . . Well it varies a lot. I still meet women who expect protection. But, I find it rarer to meet a woman who understands that faithfulness is the "protection" that men expect.
"Get's Gifts" In my relationship that translates to remembers special days. Quite frankly it's working worse than ever now. Maybe this one needs it's own post.
"Be Romanced" is one that is so confusing that it is rapidly becoming the greatest point of friction. The male version is "Be Sexed". It is now politically incorrect for women to do this.
to "Be Provided For" This one is also out of date, men and women are likely to agree with "be financially responsible". Women want to feel secure in their future. Men want to be secure that hard earned assets aren't wasted.

Dr. Laura often offered advice in one sentence. These issues are much more complicated than that. My understanding of the book (which I haven't read) Is that Dr. Laura was saying that men are easy to keep happy. A happy man is more likely to keep you happy. Simple (minded) one sentence solution to a complex problem. 

Entitled has become a politically insensitive thing to say. But if we desire men to continue to enter into marriage, we are going to have to get past that. We are going to need clearly defined expectations. Marriage can't survive without it. If we just say Happiness comes from within and not from your marriage, thus excusing both spouses from any responsibility to their partner, then a person can and will find more happiness outside of marriage. 

TLDR Expectations are historically a part of marriage. Men and women have expectations. A couple should clearly communicate and agree on expectations.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Someone should rank the list both in terms of critical to staying married, and again, critical to being HAPPY.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Rowan said:


> In fairness, I've known a good number of men who've done the same or similar. They intentionally, usually through feigned helplessness, make such a muddle of doing a chore that their wife gets exasperated and takes it over so it's done properly, or at all. The dishes, the laundry, childcare, cleaning, managing appointments for the kids, etc..
> 
> So, that's not just a woman thing.
> 
> In either case, it's a way to get out of an equitable share of workload in the relationship. And it's not something that should be acceptable to either partner. Relationships work better with two fully functional contributing adults.


Used to drive me nuts that my wife did not like the way i did something and she would get huffy. Im not going to do something egactly the same way you do so if you want that exact process follow you can do it yourself. Dont like the way i put pillows on bed so i make up bed and leave pillows for her.
Same time is drives me nuts how she stacks dishes in dishwasher....so i do it or end up redoing it after her.
She does laundry a particular way...so i occasionally sneak in a load of towels...

She will say, stay out of my lane and quit doing my work. This is my kitchen/laundry room.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

I've never seen a demand for "unconditional love" not be gaslighting.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Blondilocks said:


> Was the book written by Dr. Laura Schlessinger? I don't know a single person who finds that sanctimonious hypocrite credible.


Count me as sanctimonious hypocrite devotee then because I think she was right in the money the vast majority of the time. 

IMHO she was one of the original red pillers before The Matrix even hit the theaters. 

The whole premise of “the Care and Feeding of Husbands” is that men have very few needs in a relationship where as women have a whole laundry list of wants and desires and expectations that can never be truly fulfilled.

However if a woman can meet those few basic needs of a man, he will try to move mountains in attempt to meets hers. 

A man will never be be able to truly fulfill a woman’s every want and desire. 

But I wise woman that meets her husband’s simple needs will have a man that will make sincere and honest effort to try to meet as many of hers as possible. 

Dr Laura also explains in the book that the exceptions to that rule is with narcissists and sociopaths. And this was back in a time before it was trendy to blame all bad behaviors on narcissism and personality disorders.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

CatholicDad said:


> A husband doesn't have to obey. This was never a command to husbands. We were commanded to love our wives. Likewise, wives are supposed to honor and obey.


No one does the obey in the vows anymore and they haven't for decades. Nobody is obeying anyone in this day and age and if they are there's something wrong with them.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> No one does the obey in the vows anymore and they haven't for decades. Nobody is obeying anyone in this day and age and if they are there's something wrong with them.


Your opinion.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> Count me as sanctimonious hypocrite devotee then because I think she was right in the money the vast majority of the time.
> 
> IMHO she was one of the original red pillers before The Matrix even hit the theaters.
> 
> ...


I know what you are saying about her thoughts, especially when it comes to men, sex and their needs. However, she’s a known cheater and a home wrecker, and for that, I know longer listen to her show. I have not read her book either. Also, she is easy on the cheaters that call in because she can relate.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

RebuildingMe said:


> I know what you are saying about her thoughts, especially when it comes to men, sex and their needs. However, she’s a known cheater and a home wrecker, and for that, I know longer listen to her show. I have not read her book either. Also, she is easy on the cheaters that call in because she can relate.


I listened to her show at least an hour a night every evening on my commute for a number of years. 

I never once heard her go easy, condone or excuse a cheater. She was quite frank and matter-of-fact them in regards to the harm and damage they were doing. 

Where people get the mistaken idea she goes easy on cheaters is that she is frank and upfront that if someone knowingly and intentionally denies their spouse, that their spouse may very well seek elsewhere as a predictable outcome to the chronic denial.

She did not ever say it was ok or excused. She said it was a predictable and not unrealistic outcome.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> I listened to her show at least an hour a night every evening on my commute for a number of years.
> 
> I never once heard her go easy, condone or excuse a cheater. She was quite frank and matter-of-fact them in regards to the harm and damage they were doing.
> 
> ...


Admittedly, I haven’t listened to her show in maybe two years. When I was listening and a cheater would call or a person would call being cheated on, she would give the standard advice to stop and come clean. Beyond that, nothing. No true remorse, no IC, no reading. It was almost as if “you were caught, admit it and move on with your life”. I was very interested in those calls especially, as I was in limbo with my stbx and her cheating. I then researched her background and I soon understood her passivity.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

RebuildingMe said:


> Admittedly, I haven’t listened to her show in maybe two years. When I was listening and a cheater would call or a person would call being cheated on, she would give the standard advice to stop and come clean. Beyond that, nothing. No true remorse, no IC, no reading. It was almost as if “you were caught, admit it and move on with your life”. I was very interested in those calls especially, as I was in limbo with my stbx and her cheating. I then researched her background and I soon understood her passivity.


Even though she is a licensed therapist, by her own statement her show was not therapy and she did not offer therapy but rather addressed the moral aspects on her show.

From that perspective, stopping the affair and coming clean, is the moral aspect. 

You can’t make someone feel remorse and counseling/therapy is outside the scope of any radio show.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

CatholicDad said:


> A husband doesn't have to obey. This was never a command to husbands. We were commanded to love our wives. Likewise, wives are supposed to honor and obey.


I didn't get that OP was saying the husband must "obey" as part of any marriage vow.
I took it as that these days many wives expect that her demands get obeyed. Kind of in the vein of the old saying that "if momma's not happy, then nobody's happy," sort of thing.

Not taking a stance on the OP's initial question, just saying what I think she meant by that line.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> Well vacuuming the floor north to south instead of east to west doesn't count. Also violating any 1 of the 52 laws of dishwasher loading.
> Or perhaps I'm just justifying my refusal to fold towels in the "one true pattern" during the first three yeas of marriage.
> 
> I'll give Dr. Laura as much credit as Esther Perel, even though I read Esther and not Laura. I do have a spare credit and could listen to
> ...


"Well we've seen plenty of kickback over "Be Obeyed" Men and women believe that this is an unreasonable expectation. Yet historically it was written right into wedding vows (universally accepted)."

If the relationship is at even parity, the need for obedience is removed. 
Historical setting has been removed. the correct setting is what the couple agrees before marriage. We spent upwards of two years discussing what we wanted in our marriage, and documenting everything. We clocked 56 pages of A4 paper at size 11 TMR. We discussed it with our pastor and reworded what we could. We do not argue over anything that has not been discussed already. The directive is that if one of us does anything that is out of the blue and the other finds it objectionable, that act becomes a paragraph in out book ad gets discussed and agreements are reached. 
It means we can take out whatever phrases we agree to take out and bring in new phrases if we agree to do so. Nearly 15 years on we are doing good. 

I believe modern marriages should have their expectations negotiated and agreed. It is not reasonable to go into a marriage with your head full of assumptions which you have no idea if your partner has heard of or not. You both come from two different families and have been brought up differently. 

I also totally disagree with people who speed up their marriage plans just because they have not been using contraception and the girl is pregnant. Foolishness cannot ever be a good reason to marry someone.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Honestly I'm a believer in obedience. It is central to both of my major moral codes. But, I don't expect my wife to obey me just because I'm her husband. I do expect her to counsel with me. We are partners and most decisions should be carefully made together.
Now, before I become accused of blind obedience, I believe in being obedient to righteous leadership. Where I see a leader acting against true principles I do not follow. I would expect a good wife or husband to do the same.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

MaiChi said:


> "Well we've seen plenty of kickback over "Be Obeyed" Men and women believe that this is an unreasonable expectation. Yet historically it was written right into wedding vows (universally accepted)."
> 
> If the relationship is at even parity, the need for obedience is removed.
> Historical setting has been removed. the correct setting is what the couple agrees before marriage. We spent upwards of two years discussing what we wanted in our marriage, and documenting everything. We clocked 56 pages of A4 paper at size 11 TMR. We discussed it with our pastor and reworded what we could. We do not argue over anything that has not been discussed already. The directive is that if one of us does anything that is out of the blue and the other finds it objectionable, that act becomes a paragraph in out book ad gets discussed and agreements are reached.
> ...


Wow. Two years and documenting everything?

On one hand I'm very impressed.

On the other, if I had endured a two year contract developing engagement I'd have had affairs on the side and that would have rightly exploded everything. 

If that was a condition to do by my SO, we wouldn't have been compatible. 

But I appreciate there's different strokes for different folks, like I said on the one hand I'm impressed. The contract thing is too much like tv show, living with Sheldon in Big Bang Theory. 

🙂🙂👍👍


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> Be loved
> Be adored
> Be protected
> Gets gifts
> ...


Every one of the things in this list, for me, is a "don't care".

Dr. Laura said "....if he's not horny, make him a sandwich..."

Dr. Laura has a profound and eloquent understanding of men. In fact, I can even make my own sandwich. So that also is a "don't care".

Her "list" for me is a full-time and a part-time job at the same time. Requiring just about all my 102 waking hours every week.
My "list" for her would require 15 minutes twice per week. That is, if she were actually willing to give it that much time.

I most definitely view myself as a "chump".


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

Whatever benefits marriage offers are overshadowed by everything that can go wrong.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> Was the book written by Dr. Laura Schlessinger? I don't know a single person who finds that sanctimonious hypocrite credible.


I found Dr. Laura's advice to be at best anecdotal and niche, and at worse harmful. 

Her ideas are based on the assumption that men are very simple creatures with only a couple of basic needs. Take care of those two or three basic needs and he will instinctually reciprocate because that's what men do 🙄. The truth is that men are humans and humans are complex. We all have many needs and we are always wanting more. Additionally, although hotly debated, the last time I checked the research, humans don't have instincts. 

Dr. Laura also assumes that women are takers and men are givers except for men who fall under the narcissist or sociopath categories. We all know that's BS. Humans generally seek pleasure and avoid pain. So even if a man is getting his needs met does not guarantee he will reciprocate. He could just be a taker and giving more will not get the desired response. 

At the end of the day, it takes two people willing to give in order to get. Unfortunately Dr. Laura (much like Laura Doyle 🤮) put way too much responsibility on the woman for the success of the relationship. Topping from the bottom. Ummm, Nope.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Divinely Favored said:


> Your opinion.


You'd have to be living in a cult cut off from the real world to not know that.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Lila said:


> I found Dr. Laura's advice to be at best anecdotal and niche, and at worse harmful.
> 
> Her ideas are based on the assumption that men are very simple creatures with only a couple of basic needs. Take care of those two or three basic needs and he will instinctually reciprocate because that's what men do 🙄. The truth is that men are humans and humans are complex. We all have many needs and we are always wanting more. Additionally, although hotly debated, the last time I checked the research, humans don't have instincts.
> 
> ...


Yeah, it's apparent she subscribes to the theory that if you keep a man's stomach full and his balls empty that you'll have a man who wants for nothing. How insulting and demeaning to men. Ilustrates that she has very little regard for men. As you said, men are complex beings and they have just as many needs as women. Sometimes, more so.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm done here! the thread has degenerated to name calling. The SMIC has taken responsibility for future content, and (as explained ^) I don't follow there.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

SMIC??


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Good


Mr. Nail said:


> I'm done here! the thread has degenerated to name calling. The SMIC has taken responsibility for future content, and (as explained ^) I don't follow there.


I see nothing has changed here at TAM


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> Yeah, it's apparent she subscribes to the theory that if you keep a man's stomach full and his balls empty that you'll have a man who wants for nothing. *How insulting and demeaning to men. Ilustrates that she has very little regard for men.* As you said, men are complex beings and they have just as many needs as women. Sometimes, more so.


I found her advice very demeaning to men as well. Although I have met men who claim to only need food and sex to be content, I know so many more who need companionship, emotional support, respect, family interaction, financial support (at least equity), adventure seeking, and the list goes on. The problem with Dr. laura's "simple man" approach is that when it doesn't work, her answer is always "you must not be doing it right".


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm done here! the thread has degenerated to name calling. The SMIC has taken responsibility for future content, and (as explained ^) I don't follow there.



🤔. Can you point to the name calling?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Cindy ( @Affaircare ) and I have this above our bed...
















I read it every night before I go to bed and grasp it's awareness every morning I wake.

I won't speak for her but I feel we choose to be here, that by being the best we can be we are the best for the other. It holds no conditions, leaves room for little judgement... we help another because as it says "when you are in that place in you and I am in that place in me, We Are One"

Relationships deserve the willingness of a hand up, not a hand out... truly be there for another in struggles.

This is the strength in "what's in it for us".

What is in it for me or thee is not where we place "us" in my eyes.

To understand unconditional love means to understand non-attachment... non-attachment to the selfish that we are naturally drawn to. This has nothing to do with "stay and suffer" and everything to do with the patience to understand why we're suffering and then take healthy steps to remove that suffering, either individually (look within first) or together.

Every day you love, you never step in the same creek twice.

Survive?

Transcend...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> Her ideas are based on the assumption that men are very simple creatures with only a couple of basic needs.


@Lila you have to take into account that people from that generation likely grew up with their first job working in a mall departments store. I used to work in the men's formal back when I needed a summer job at the mall when I was in high school. I was friends with a girl that worked over in women's formal wear. My jaw used to drop when she would tell me stories from her department. Did you know almost all department stores have a room full of little old ladies with sewing machines in what is known as "alterations!" They stay busy and have a backlog of dresses to cut, adjust and sew back together. 

I used to be thankful that the men's formal department by contrast was extremely simple. Wedding, prom, choir soloist, or any formal event for men: Here is your standard tuxedo, we are all done here. 

Once you have seen society from that perspective, it is kinda hard to unsee it. 

Badsanta


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> No one does the obey in the vows anymore and they haven't for decades. Nobody is obeying anyone in this day and age and if they are there's something wrong with them.


I'm going to back CatholicDad up on this. In Christianity, the man is to provide for and lead the family. Roughly speaking, the success of the family is his job

If I am responsible for an outcome, I need to know that the steps I take to achieve it are supported. As in, if we need a bigger house and I draw up a budget to save, I need to know you're not going to blow it up. If the kids are out of control and you look to me to fix it, you need to follow my lead on setting expectations, discipline, and so on.

That command doesn't allow me go on a power trip, ignore anyone's needs, or issue commands and watch everyone scramble around me. If simply recognizes that to get stuff done, we all have to pull in the same direction. And the person who is responsible for making it happen - who becomes the one bearing the bigger burden - gets the final say.

It's not for everyone.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DTO said:


> I'm going to back CatholicDad up on this. In Christianity, the man is to provide for and lead the family. Roughly speaking, the success of the family is mostly upon his shoulders.
> 
> If I am responsible for an outcome, I need to know that the steps I take to achieve that outcome are supported. As in, if we need a bigger house and I draw up a budget to save, I need to know you're not going to blow it up. If the kids are out of control and you look to me to fix it, you need to follow my lead on setting expectations, discipline, and so on.
> 
> That command doesn't allow me go on a power trip or issue commands and watch everyone scramble around me. If simply recognizes that to get stuff done, we all have to pull in the same direction. And the person who is responsible for making it happen - who becomes the one bearing the bigger burden - gets the final say.


That's only fundamentalists, which is by no means most Christians. All Christians are not alike, and this day and age, most pastors have omitted the word "obey" from the marriage vows because it's the 21st century.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MaiChi said:


> Do we, as women in marriages, have a sense of entitlement, which says once married, we are entitled to:
> Be loved
> Be adored
> Be protected
> ...


LoL! Why, pray tell, would any man put up with this nonsense?

Don't answer. I know of men and women who come to grips with their slavery.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Wow. Two years and documenting everything?
> 
> On one hand I'm very impressed.
> 
> ...


We had been together from when I was 13 as a play thing which developed into a real thing. We got married when I was 24. So it was not a condition for anything. I was an exercise which we decided to do while we were waiting to fish our education. 

We were friends from when we were kids. Our parents were friends.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> That's only fundamentalists, which is by no means most Christians. All Christians are not alike, and this day and age, most pastors have omitted the word "obey" from the marriage vows because it's the 21st century.


Not necessarily just those you're identifying as "fundamentalists" in fact, far from it.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Not necessarily just those you're identifying as "fundamentalists" in fact, far from it.


Practically, What does the term OBEY actually mean? Is it empowering the husband to become a dictator and asking the wife to accept a slavery role? Or does it mean something else much more positive and productive, progressive?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

DTO said:


> I'm going to back CatholicDad up on this. In Christianity, the man is to provide for and lead the family. Roughly speaking, the success of the family is his job
> 
> If I am responsible for an outcome, I need to know that the steps I take to achieve it are supported. As in, if we need a bigger house and I draw up a budget to save, I need to know you're not going to blow it up. If the kids are out of control and you look to me to fix it, you need to follow my lead on setting expectations, discipline, and so on.
> 
> ...


No, it's certainly not.

I know a lot of people in real life, and not a one has a marriage where the man has to "lead" like this, where the man is the one responsible for making it happen.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

MaiChi said:


> Practically, What does the term OBEY actually mean? Is it empowering the husband to become a dictator and asking the wife to accept a slavery role? Or does it mean something else much more positive and productive, progressive?


Absolutely it doesn't mean the H is empowered to be a dictator. Who's telling you that?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

MaiChi said:


> Practically, What does the term OBEY actually mean? Is it empowering the husband to become a dictator and asking the wife to accept a slavery role? Or does it mean something else much more positive and productive, progressive?


The former.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MaiChi said:


> Practically, What does the term OBEY actually mean? Is it empowering the husband to become a dictator and asking the wife to accept a slavery role? Or does it mean something else much more positive and productive, progressive?


I love telling Mrs. Conan to obey.

I like a little "rough" treatment occasionally and that usually gets her worked up enough to get feisty while I helplessly giggle.😋


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Here are the original wedding vows:

I, (Groom’s first name), take you (Bride’s first name)
To be my wedded wife
To have and to hold from this day forward
For better or for worse
For richer or for poorer
In sickness and in health
To love and to cherish
Till death do us part
_According to God’s holy ordinance
and thereto I plight thee my troth_


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## aston (Oct 24, 2011)

MaiChi said:


> Do we, as women in marriages, have a sense of entitlement, which says once married, we are entitled to:
> Be loved
> Be adored
> Be protected
> ...


Marriage as an institution....theres *nothing* in it for men! 90% of marriage is a one way street. There's an implicit slant towards women.
Relationships, partnering, boyfriend/girlfriend on the other hand? YEs, that's equality and there's plenty in it for both parties.
Once the ring goes and you sign those documents.....the real sense of control an entitlement comes out.
Most marriages fail for that very reason. If you're the perfect girlfriend, why not keep it that way? Perfect girlfriends make the worst wives because you go from being there because you want to be there to being there because you've signed a contract *requiring* you to be there.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Livvie said:


> No, it's certainly not.
> 
> I know a lot of people in real life, and not a one has a marriage where the man has to "lead" like this, where the man is the one responsible for making it happen.


I know a few who are like this actually. But I used to attend an evangelical church.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

aston said:


> Marriage as an institution....theres *nothing* in it for men! 90% of marriage is a one way street. There's an implicit slant towards women.
> Relationships, partnering, boyfriend/girlfriend on the other hand? YEs, that's equality and there's plenty in it for both parties.
> Once the ring goes and you sign those documents.....the real sense of control an entitlement comes out.
> Most marriages fail for that very reason. If you're the perfect girlfriend, why not keep it that way? Perfect girlfriends make the worst wives because you go from being there because you want to be there to being there because you've signed a contract *requiring* you to be there.


You describe a very sad state of affairs and if true its very very sad. Why don't fathers educate their sons? Better still why don't mothers educate their sons about women, seeing that we know more about women than about how our men feel?


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