# Still don't know HOW some of you forgive a cheater?



## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

I have said it a few times already that cheating is THEE ultimate knife in the back and sign of disrespect you can do to someone, and once someone has done something that wrong to you why in the world would you ever trust or respect them again?? To me if you would be willing to cheat on me you would be willing to do ANYTHING else horrible to me!


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Some people have a more forgiving nature than others. I forgave my wife, but I still divorced her. Forgiveness has nothing to do with re-establishing trust.


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Some people have a more forgiving nature than others. I forgave my wife, but I still divorced her. Forgiveness has nothing to do with re-establishing trust.


Well I have no use for a spouse, family member, friend, or hell even a pet that I cannot trust; and I have no idea why you would still want someone around who is undermining you.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Alot of people think the cheating itself doesn't abolish the years/memories of happiness they had with that partner and so are willing to endure the pain, added with a plethora of other reasons of course. Me personally, I couldn't endure the resentment or project it on the WS, so it's best to start a new chapter somewhere else. You only live once, why waste what precious years you have left living in grief and distrust.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

i agree with being able to forgive so you can move on from it but i did not and could never have use for someone like that.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Paul, I was very much in the same mindset as you are. Until it happened to me.

I found out that what I think I'll do in some hypothetical situation and what I'll actually do may not match. The real-life problems rarely unravel in same straightforward way as when we idly ponder what-ifs in an armchair.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Cee Paul said:


> Well I have no use for a spouse, family member, friend, or hell even a pet that I cannot trust; and I have no idea why you would still want someone around who is undermining you.





2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> i agree with being able to forgive so you can move on from it but i did not and could never have use for someone like that.


In my opinion Spouses are not tools, and a persons usefulness is not defined solely by their ability to satisfy the need/s of someone else.

We are all fallible, those of us that can forgive, are much more in tune with that concept. If someone else can do something terrible, so can I. Thinking otherwise is a easy way to delude yourself into thinking you are perfect, or incapable of making a bad choice.

A relationship, trust, love, partnerships, are all what you choose to make them every day. If you decided to not forgive and "move on" because life is "too short" where is the guarantee that your new partner, every bit as fallible as your old one, wont end up cheating on you in the future?

Free will includes the ability to both do something fked up (cheat) and something amazing (forgive/love), sometimes at the same time. 

Just my two cents anyway.

-Paladin


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## Numb-badger (May 18, 2011)

My opinion was always that if it happened to me it's toodlepip.

Until it actually happened.

When faced with the reality there are always so many things to take into account that you just can't see until it happens. That's not to say the end result is that you always stay together, but rather that it's never as simple as cutting a string and moving on.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

Numb-badger said:


> it's never as simple as cutting a string and moving on.


oh, sure it is


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Cee Paul said:


> I have said it a few times already that cheating is THEE ultimate knife in the back and sign of disrespect you can do to someone, and once someone has done something that wrong to you why in the world would you ever trust or respect them again?? To me if you would be willing to cheat on me you would be willing to do ANYTHING else horrible to me!



I guess I'm having trouble figuring out the point to this post


Ok, so infidelity is the deal breaker for you

it is for lots of people

but it isn't for lots of others either

we are all different, some of us are very religious, some of us are casually spiritual, some of us are agnostic or athiest. And despite how much the any one person from a particular category fails to understand the others it doesn't mean that they don't exist or they aren't just as set in their own convictions.


I was once like you, I was prepared to cut all ties and head for divorce. I was convinced otherwise by my spouse through actions and I don't regret R in the slightest now, in fact I embrace it. But I don't fault others for their choice to D. 

That said, there are definite cases where it is evident that R will fail based on what the BS tells us about the WS or their own feelings. In those cases I will speak up in the hopes of helping the BS see more clearly and perhaps make a better and more informed decision.

But to make a blanket statements like "once a cheater, always a cheater" or "always divorce if you are cheated on" I think are disingenuous statements that cater to one point of view only.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

I'm not one of them that would forgive, no matter what the lies and excuses that were given to try and justify such a horrible act.


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## cledus_snow (Feb 19, 2012)

i think this thread is about trying to understand why/how people can forgive such an infraction.

i've often wondered that myself.


for me, the respect would be gone forever, and i can't love someone i don't respect.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> oh, sure it is


Speak for yourself. My decision to divorce my ex-wife was one of the most painful things I have ever experienced and that includes the death of my first wife from cancer.

I forgave my ex-wife for MY well being not hers and chose not to reconcile and end the marriage for MY healing. MY recovery came FIRST.

I refuse to allow anger and bitternes to poison my life and the lives of the ones I love. I make no apologies to anyone who views things differently.


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## cherokee96red (Apr 23, 2011)

This question got me to thinking about how the dictionary defines both "forgive" and "excuse."

The American Heritage Dictionary gives the following definition:


v., -gave (-gāv'), -giv·en (-gĭv'ən), -giv·ing, -gives. 

v.tr. 
1.To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
2.To renounce anger or resentment against.
3.To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).


Read more: forgive: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com


With that in mind, I cannot say at this time that I forgive my STBXH for cheating, period. For to do so would be to "excuse" it and I see absolutely none. Perhaps I am too literal in this, too analytical, don't know. Possibly, in time I'll be able to forgive. Matter of wait and see.


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## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

It's an interesting subject, like many I say it's a deal breaker, but if I actually found out who knows what my reaction would be.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

This message board has been very good at discussing various boundaries to work on in a situation.

When I was single I lived a very accept / reject life, that is, if I didn't like something, move on. Unfortunately, there are a couple of types of relationships in which there is too much invested to make moving on not as easy as the advice giver might assume.

In my current situation, unmarried, many people told me I should have dropped my boyfriend. Some people don't approve of multidating; some people don't approve of lying; some people don't approve of inappropriate male / female friendships. Good for them, but each of these situations are connected to something larger. 

When I finally dealt with his "friendship" directly --something that I was advised not to do because it would make me look insecure and therefore, unattractive -- I was pleasantly surprised that he was eager to do what was necessary to make me feel secure. He took her off his instant messenger; he defriended her from FB; he showed me the text messages between them before and after we met adn asked me how would I like for him to respond to them. This was before I found TAM. I got the impression then that someone in his family must have dealt with adultery and he saw this happening. 

I don't want to tell other people how to live their life. IF there's a way to reconcile, I want to know about it for myself and to help anyone else who asks for help.

I am very grateful for this discussion.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

When they hand you the divorce papers the day you find out they've been cheating ever since the marriage took place, there's literally no chance for reconciliation. When the aftermath causes you to lose just about everything material that you owned, forgiveness never enters the picture.
Recognizing "trust" becomes the the next of life's projects.


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

I will put it this way in how I rate the seriousness of things and my reactions to them; if I owned a store and a teenager steals a pack of gum out of my store and is caught and is sorry for it, there's no way I wanna see him or her go to prison for that. Buuuut if that teen comes into my store and robs me at gunpoint I am going to want him or her thrown in prison for a good long time!

So there's a lot of things that I'll forgive like that pack of gum, but if you cheat on me I will feel like being robbed at gunpoint which is always going to be unforgiveable in my book. And again for the record cheating is something I don't believe in and have never done and never will do, and if things ever get that bad and I am that horny I would probably ask for a seperation and then a divorce to remedy that(instead of sneaking around like a bank robber). In the past I had two opportunitities to cheat with an attractive co-worker - but I turned them down both times.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Very very little is black and white in life. Affairs range from same sex people developing too close of an emotional bond, to multi year full on EA/PA's, to serial cheaters. To make a blanket statement that cheating is a deal breaker is naive and bravado. There are too many variables to believe a statement like that. 

That's not to say that there aren't affairs that aren't deal breakers, but for 99% of the population there are circumstance we here would all define as cheating that wouldn't (and probably shouldn't) end the relationship.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Everyone is different and has their threshold of what they can get past. "Cheating" carries many forms. Some of which I could forgive, some not. 

I've seen people divorce because their spouse flirted with another person too much, but otherwise did nothing. I've also seen people forgive a spouse even though they've had sex many times with several people outside the marriage.

Somewhere inbetween these is where most people are. For me personally, any sex would be a dealbreaker, unless my spouse was raped or heavily drugged or something. Willing, sober, sex, even once and I would be out. But various levels of emotional affairs, if completely broken, to me, can be forgiven, especially if we've had a long history and I surely am not perfect by any stretch.


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Everyone is different and has their threshold of what they can get past. "Cheating" carries many forms. Some of which I could forgive, some not.
> 
> I've seen people divorce because their spouse flirted with another person too much, but otherwise did nothing. I've also seen people forgive a spouse even though they've had sex many times with several people outside the marriage.
> 
> Somewhere inbetween these is where most people are. For me personally, any sex would be a dealbreaker, unless my spouse was raped or heavily drugged or something. Willing, sober, sex, even once and I would be out. But various levels of emotional affairs, if completely broken, to me, can be forgiven, especially if we've had a long history and I surely am not perfect by any stretch.


I agree in the sense that a lot of people male and female have their eyes wander over to the opposite sex and think that they're attractive from time to time, but there's a biiiiiig difference between doing that and sneaking behind my back to go share body parts and bodily fluids with someone you are attracted to other than me. To me the physical bond I share with my wife is very very sacred and cannot and will not be interrupted or toyed with by someone else, or else it is over and I am out the door.


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

For me, it's as simple as the promise we made. I've been cheated on once (first marriage). Carol has not cheated on me. In both cases, however, I see it the same. It all goes back to what I believe I'm entitled to just because she said, "I do". The answer, for me, is "nothing". Accordingly, I wouldn't be worried about forgiving some [to me] non-existent infraction. I'd be focused on the current state of our marriage and whether or not it was still a marriage.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Cee Paul said:


> I will put it this way in how I rate the seriousness of things and my reactions to them; if I owned a store and a teenager steals a pack of gum out of my store and is caught and is sorry for it, there's no way I wanna see him or her go to prison for that. Buuuut if that teen comes into my store and robs me at gunpoint I am going to want him or her thrown in prison for a good long time!


What if that teenager is your only son?


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm not a BS or a WS, so until faced with the scenario, I can only hypothesize how I would react.

I can understand how a BS can reconcile after one betrayal whether it's a ONS or EA or EA/PA, but there are people who forgive and reconcile after VERY long-term affairs. On another board I used to visit, there is a woman whose husband had a 21-year affair! She not only forgave him but reconciled with him and they're still going through marital counseling. There was also a man whose wife had like an 18-year affair which left the paternity of his oldest daughter in question. He's also still with that wife. Reconciling after THAT kind of betrayal I just can't understand.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

I'd just never be able to think of anything else...it would consume me. So I'm really not sure I'd ever be able to stick around. But I've never been married before, so it's definitely different. I've had several boyfriends cheat in many different ways. I never stayed with any of them, so that's why I doubt that I would stay with my H. Of course, like all of us, I hope to be one of the slim few that never has to face anything of the sort...


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

We had 15 good years before our marriage went south. And a big part of the reason our marriage went south was due to my general outlook on life (self-entitled whiner / complainer). I had a serious leg injury that was a huge wake-up call that I needed to appreciate the good in life. It changed me from the inside out.

The problem was, by the time I had turned myself around, my WS was deep into an EA that would last for years.

I don't blame myself for his choice, but I do feel like I carried the bigger load of making our marriage vulnerable.

Also, educating myself about infidelity helped me to understand the tremendous difficulty he had extracting himself from the EA once he was in it.

But he has changed. He isn't just the person I married, he's a new and improved version. And I am too.

So I feel that there were lots of individual circumstances--and if any one of them had been absent, we probably would be heading toward divorce instead of good true R.

On the issue of trust, it's hard, but having my husband very willingly open up his life like a book so that I can prove to myself that he is loyal goes a very long way toward trusting him.

And last, needless to say this is it. He doesn't get another chance.


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## Peachy Cat (Apr 15, 2012)

I can forgive a person for "being human"... but I would never allow that person to be an intimate part of my life ever again. Trust broken is trust lost.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

iheartlife said:


> And last, needless to say this is it. He doesn't get another chance.


amen


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## Ingalls (Mar 7, 2012)

Hypothetical life and the real life are two totally different things. So its easy to say never allow or forgive. 

No second chances!!!! That IS reality!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> amen


yeah, no way. no 3rd chances here either. It wouldn't even be hard to say goodbye if it happened again.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Krichali said:


> I agree with those who say that real life is different from the black and white that you imagine in hypothetical situations. And although I always thought that a spouse cheating was the strongest way to say "I do not love you", as it turns out, it can happen that they cheat and still love their spouse too. I'm still trying to comprehend that, but my MC is teaching me that it's true sometimes.
> 
> Meanwhile I'd also like to wonder, why are most of the commenters on this thread people who are neither BS nor WS? This is the "coping with infidelity" forum. I am surprised that people who have not experienced this crisis from either side are coming here to post such a question. Naturally their minds are made up: they are declaring their positions on the subject from theoretical reasoning only. We who have practical experience in coping with infidelity know that reality is different. There's no need to self-righteously declare that we are doormats if our situations have called for forgiveness.


I hear what you're saying and that's why I don't typically post here. Those of us who aren't WS or BS don't know first hand the reality of CWI. We may have only seen it happen to friends and loved ones. On the other hand, this is a public message board. Someone who isn't a BS or WS should be able to ask questions to understand infidelity issues and add to the conversation. The OP's question isn't off-topic. I've wondered the same thing myself, but haven't opened a topic on it here.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

There is no good, rational reason for reconciliation.

But then there are no really good, rational reasons for marriage in the first place. People still do it.


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

snap said:


> What if that teenager is your only son?


Not really relevant to my point but I will play along; and if it's MY teenager running around robbing stores and banks and endangering lives then..........throw them in prison as well.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

After years of slapping my fWW around I'd figure if she forgave me I could forgive her.

I'm really sure that If we as individuals didn't get the help we needed then things would be different. But as it stand we are now completely different spouses with a completely different marriage, compared to 20 yrs ago.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Peachy Cat said:


> I can forgive...but I would never allow that person to be an intimate part of my life ever again. Trust broken is trust lost.


Things that are broken can be fixed. Trust is not earned in a day, it may be broken in one day, but certainly not lost. Every single moment of every single day is filled with choices. Some are good, some are bad, but they are all still choices. A person dealing with an issue of trust may look at their partner, and choose to only see the negative things they did/do, or they may choose to see only to positive, sometimes even a combination of the two. Ultimately, it really does come down to the observer, or the person making the choice to trust. Just as you cant control the actions of others, their actions, good and bad, cant control you either. You are the only one responsible for having trust, it is a choice you make: "I trust him/her" or "I do not trust him/her" the variables that make up the choice are all in your own mind anyway.


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

Paladin said:


> Things that are broken can be fixed. Trust is not earned in a day, it may be broken in one day, but certainly not lost. Every single moment of every single day is filled with choices. Some are good, some are bad, but they are all still choices. A person dealing with an issue of trust may look at their partner, and choose to only see the negative things they did/do, or they may choose to see only to positive, sometimes even a combination of the two. Ultimately, it really does come down to the observer, or the person making the choice to trust. Just as you cant control the actions of others, their actions, good and bad, cant control you either. You are the only one responsible for having trust, it is a choice you make: "I trust him/her" or "I do not trust him/her" the variables that make up the choice are all in your own mind anyway.


Buuuut if it's something that you consider the ultimate deal breaker or straw on the camel's back(which it should be), then you have to do what you think is the appropriate punishment and if that is a divorce or a permanent split then.......so be it. To me those who get cheated on and keep on forgivng tells me that you probably get taken advantage of a lot in probably more than just your marriage.


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

Cee Paul said:


> I have said it a few times already that cheating is THEE ultimate knife in the back and sign of disrespect you can do to someone, and once someone has done something that wrong to you why in the world would you ever trust or respect them again?? To me if you would be willing to cheat on me you would be willing to do ANYTHING else horrible to me!


It will always be one of thoes things that you can not wrap your mind around until it happens to you. I have no idea how parents of murdered children can forgive the killer, but it happens. I think that it is all about the individual? I still have no idea how my H and I have come this far in recovery from his EA. 

You can not see it from a perspective other then your own so to you it is mind boggling that any one CAN forgive a cheater. But that is where you stand and I can respect that for you it is a deal breaker and I understand how it can be for you because it happen to me. (I once thought it was a deal breaker for me then I found out I was wrong)


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

Kurosity said:


> It will always be one of thoes things that you can not wrap your mind around until it happens to you. I have no idea how parents of murdered children can forgive the killer, but it happens. I think that it is all about the individual? I still have no idea how my H and I have come this far in recovery from his EA.
> 
> You can not see it from a perspective other then your own so to you it is mind boggling that any one CAN forgive a cheater. But that is where you stand and I can respect that for you it is a deal breaker and I understand how it can be for you because it happen to me. (I once thought it was a deal breaker for me then I found out I was wrong)


I already mentioned in another thread that it DID happen to me many years ago, and I broke things off the next day after cussing her and her cheating partner out and threatning to shatter his face(but he wouldn't come outside).


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Cee Paul said:


> ...you have to do what you think is the appropriate punishment... To me those who get cheated on and keep on forgivng tells me that you probably get taken advantage of a lot in probably more than just your marriage.


Boundaries are not about punishment, because punishment implies that you are trying to influence someone, not protect yourself.

The fact that you subscribe to absolutes, probably makes it easier for you to make statements like the one quoted. As mentioned a few times in this thread by others, forgiveness is more for the benefit of the person doing the forgiving, not the person on the receiving end of it. The capacity to forgive, and "being taken advantage of a lot," do not share a correlation. 

The straw that breaks the camel's back is only the straw that breaks the camel's back, until it is not. I suppose "for better or for worse, in sickness and in health" means different things to different people.


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## elph (Apr 2, 2011)

for me this is kinda easy...

my parents had a nasty divorce when i was a child. and for quite sometime, i was the one who lived in two diffenet houses. going back and forth between , never having any real consistancy. i know for a fact it affected my life and how i grew up...and my parents got divorced because my mom (who was 33 at the time) got bored in her marriage (my father was about 44ish) im pretty sure my mom cheated, or would have.


having grown up like that i affected my homework, my focus, my realtionships...

i vowed to my self that my son would never have to go what i went through. that i would always look at the long term picture and put him first.


that said, my wife did have an affair. and during it (it seems to be over now) ive kept a level head and alway put on a good face around my son.(currently seperated)

there have been times when we get a long just fine...and there are time when we dont. for my, if there is a chance to make my family whole again, i will. the marriage wont ever be perfect again. and maybe thats really for the best, because i was becoming something i wouldnt have wanted to be around. 

trust can be rebuilt.the memories and anger can fade over time. and ultimatly my son only has one mother...and one family...


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Cee Paul said:


> Well I have no use for a spouse, family member, friend, or hell even a pet that I cannot trust; and I have no idea why you would still want someone around who is undermining you.


Did you not see that I divorced her? Are you trying to pick a fight or something, pay attention to what posters say.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Cee Paul said:


> Not really relevant to my point but I will play along; and if it's MY teenager running around robbing stores and banks and endangering lives then..........throw them in prison as well.


Yes, but what if he robbed only your store? If no gun was involved? Would you still push prosecution for maximum sentence or would rather see him on parole?

I'm not saying that you must, just pointing out that all these analogies are not worth a damn. And it's quite easy to give life advice when you are not involved.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

It has taken me a couple of days to decide whether or not to add to this thread as my H and i are currently in R from his A and its all a bit raw at the moment and im not really up to having a ear bashing for the choices i am currently making but here goes....

The choice to forgive a WS and to reconcile, is like many of the other issues on TAM a very personal and individual choice. As it has been pointed out, we all like to think we know what we will do for certain when a situation arises but until we actually go through it ourselves, do we really know? All the situations are different, all the As are different, all the marriages and people involved are different.

For me the decision to forgive and have my H back was an easy one. Easy because of the deepest love and commitment i have for him. The pain and anguish i felt on discovering his EA (then later PA) was absolutely devastating. I reacted in a way i never ever thought i would. I felt as if my heart and soul had been ripped from the inside out. I have been through a year of heartache an uncertainty. When my H moved out in Dec it was as if a part of me had been amputated. After being together for 19 years and thinking this was the man i was going to spend the rest of my life with, being apart from him was very difficult to get used to to say the least, but i got on with my life and started moving on, for my sake and the kids. I started going out, spent time with friends etc etc, but i missed him terribly.

4 weeks ago he finished it with the OW and i didn't even have to think about having him back. I have welcomed him with open arms. Why? Because he is the love of my life. He is truly sorry and remorseful. He is doing everything he needs to do to make this right. I don't want to be with anyone else. 

There are reason an A happens in a marriage, and where as i don't take any blame for his bad choice, i can see that our marriage was not in a good place when his EA started. We both want our marriage to be stronger and better than it was before and we are both going to put the work in to make sure nothing like this happens again. 

Maybe i have gone off topic a bit here and i apologize. Im not as articulate as some of you on here and its very difficult to explain in a few lines why i decided to have my H back without feeling as if i have to justify my actions. But the decision to have my H back was the right choice for me because as hard as it is going to be at times to move on from the last year, it will be nothing compared to living a lifetime without him. 

I will never forget what he has done, but i forgive him. As someone pointed out in an earlier post, the act of forgiveness and letting go of the hurt is more for the BS than the WS. I forgave my H long before he wanted to R, because, and i know this is going to be difficult for some of you to understand, i could see how much his choices were hurting him too. He was like a different person when the A was going on. He was miserable and unhappy. I could see in him that the choices he was making did not lie easy with him. The A nearly destroyed him. I am just glad he came to his senses before it was to late for us to sort the mess out.


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## confused55 (Apr 30, 2011)

I am having problems with trust and resentment.

My husband was going for erotic massages over a year ago. I guess you could put this in the category of one night stands (can't think of any other). Not as bad as a lot of other problems on TAM.

Since then, he has been amazing. He always was a great husband and father. His daughters absolutely think he's the world to them.

I'm still having a lot of trouble with the resentment, but what worries me the most is that I don't think of him as a faithful husband who I will always trust, love and be with forever anymore. I see him as a good person, treats us all well, a good provider and doesn't have a mean bone in his body, but I think the love is going, or already gone.

I don't want my daughters to think anything is wrong because it would shatter their worlds and I just can't do that to them. I think they would be messed up for life. Their dad is so important to them.

If someone would have asked what I would do in this situation before it happened, I would have said that he'd be out of the house the next day. When it actually happens, there are more things and people to consider.

I hope that I can regain some of my feelings I had for my husband in the future, but he just seems like someone who lives in the same house now.

Hoping for my mind to change gears.


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## Ingalls (Mar 7, 2012)

daisygirl 41 said:


> It has taken me a couple of days to decide whether or not to add to this thread as my H and i are currently in R from his A and its all a bit raw at the moment and im not really up to having a ear bashing for the choices i am currently making but here goes....
> 
> The choice to forgive a WS and to reconcile, is like many of the other issues on TAM a very personal and individual choice. As it has been pointed out, we all like to think we know what we will do for certain when a situation arises but until we actually go through it ourselves, do we really know? All the situations are different, all the As are different, all the marriages and people involved are different.
> 
> ...


I think you said it very well Daisy_41. :smthumbup:


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Can you even begin to try to R if you haven't forgiven them? I haven't forgiven my WS and I'm not sure I'll ever be able to say I've completely forgiven him 100%. There's just no way. It was a deal breaker to me his ONS. It was ten years ago, his EA four years ago. He's different than he was back then, so it makes it difficult just finding out.


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## Confused_and_bitter (Aug 6, 2011)

Like many have said its different once you are actually faced with the decision.

Before I found out about H's EA. I had no idea what an EA was or even the existence of them. I always told myself that I would never stay much less forgive a cheater and while I was dating I had broken up with guys that cheated without even giving it a second thought.

When I found out about H's EA I was devastated and angry. How could this man who claims to love me start dating OW?! Worse was all the things that I didn't do to inconvenience him when he was home on weekends such as, well anything really he would come home sit on his azz and play video games while I did everything else. Why? Because I believed him when he said he was too tired to go out.

But once I started researching the whole "We're just friends" thing I came upon this site and it has helped me in staying sane. Have I completely forgiven H? No I can't honestly say I have I also hold resentment toward him and for what he did. Have I been working on it? Yes, I do slip up and say some snide remarks. What makes it hard to completely forgive? H is a complete jackass, he thinks that because I stayed it means I have forgiven him but I told him that it doesn't and that I haven't. I need to see him put in the hard work to this marriage so that it proves to me that he is remorseful and wants this marriage to work.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

I told my wife before we married that if she was ever attracted to another guy to tell me, we would divorce and she would be free. I also told her if she ever cheated that was the end of our marriage.

20 years ago she got way too friendly with a guy she met at the gym. I didn't know what an EA was at that time, but now I know that is what was happening. I sat her down and told her I did not like her "friend" and to choose - him or me. She didn't like it at first but did finally admit that he was becoming more than just a casual friend. 

At the time, I really did not consider what she did as cheating. I understand now how an EA can destroy a marriage.

I have reexamined my position. If she came to me and told me about a ONS and was remorseful and begging forgiveness - maybe we could work on it.

If she had an on going affair with all the associated lies, plotting, deception and planning, and I just found out about it. She would be gone.


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## Vegemite (Apr 12, 2012)

hurtingbadly said:


> Can you even begin to try to R if you haven't forgiven them? I haven't forgiven my WS and I'm not sure I'll ever be able to say I've completely forgiven him 100%. There's just no way. It was a deal breaker to me his ONS. It was ten years ago, his EA four years ago. He's different than he was back then, so it makes it difficult just finding out.


Hurtingbadly, that's about where I'm at. Still with my CW. I don't forgive her. I don't love her,but don't hate her. At almost 2 years post D-day, I'm now more confused than ever.

The OP's question is the ultimate question for all of us BS's. I had fixed ideas about cheating being a deal breaker before her affair. But now at nearly 2 years post affair, I'm more confused than ever. Children being part of the equation has been the most influential factor for where I'm at.


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Did you not see that I divorced her? Are you trying to pick a fight or something, pay attention to what posters say.


I believe I made that as a _general_ statement and apologize if you thought it was directed at you personally.


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## Looking to heal (Jun 15, 2011)

My perspective on this as a BS, is its not the transgression as much as how the WS acts afterwards.

Many posts you read have the BS trying to play psychologist and understand WS motivation, fog etc. etc.

Many posts you read have the BS needing certain reassurances like access to e mail etc. and WS more concerned about their "rights" etc.

Step back and look in the mirror, in your gut, do you feel WS is truly sorry for what they did, trying to make things right.

This to me show be the guide in whether to forgive or not i.e. behaviour after vs actions before.

My WS and I didn't make it and at the end of the day, she was never truly sorry for what she did and didn't really want to make things right.

Act of betrayal can happen quickly and is huge. How it is dealt with after is to me the critical component of deciding to forgive, reconcile or whatever.


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

Let me paint this scenario for those of you who have decided to STAY with your cheating spouse.

What happens if let's say one day you forgot to do something or made a big mistake around the house that you were sorry for, but yet your spouse(the cheating one)decides to rip into you for it and throws out what a horrible or stupid person you are for making that mistake. Where do things go from there as far as your next move, knowing fully that this person flat out cheated on you once or maybe a few times and was caught red handed but is ripping you apart for something a lot less serious - hmmmm??????


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Looking to heal said:


> My perspective on this as a BS, is its not the transgression as much as how the WS acts afterwards.


Bingo.

It isn't up to the BS whether successful R can happen, as much as it is up to the WS. They must be truly remorseful - TRULY remorseful - or the BS is just wasting their time.

If a BS is sure their WS is truly remorseful, then they can decide whether THEY want to stay in the relationship.

Some BS will know right away that they don't want anything more to do with WS. That's how I felt. He was gone that very day and I didn't talk to him for over two months except via email. I hated him. But when I saw what he was willing to do - and still is - I decided the guy I married was still there and to give it a go. And I'm so glad I did. What we have now is better than what we had at any time before.

Have I forgiven him? Nope. I don't think I ever will, not by my definition. Forgiveness implies that the event is behind you and not affecting you any more. Forgiveness implies that you have accepted what was done. I will never accept what he did, but I can see it for what it was - a time of temporary insanity on his part. He has to be vigilant with himself, and always will, and I will need reassurance from him probably forever. But that's OK. We are both willing to accept that as part of what our marriage is, and in a funny way, that makes us better together than without it. It's hard to explain, but the level of reassurance I have from him is far more comforting than blind trust.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Cee Paul said:


> Let me paint this scenario for those of you who have decided to STAY with your cheating spouse.
> 
> What happens if let's say one day you forgot to do something or made a big mistake around the house that you were sorry for, but yet your spouse(the cheating one)decides to rip into you for it and throws out what a horrible or stupid person you are for making that mistake. Where do things go from there as far as your next move, knowing fully that this person flat out cheated on you once or maybe a few times and was caught red handed but is ripping you apart for something a lot less serious - hmmmm??????


My spouse would never act that way towards me. He just isn't that kind of person - never was.

IF he did something like that, the fact he cheated would be the farthest thing from my mind. As time goes by, the cheating person is overshadowed by the loving person. That's what I am finding anyway. Since he IS truly remorseful, I do not hold what he did against him at every opportunity.

His cheating is in the past. We don't live our lives thinking about it all the time. It comes up once in a while, but it doesn't color the way we do everything from here till eternity.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Cee Paul said:


> Let me paint this scenario for those of you who have decided to STAY with your cheating spouse.
> 
> What happens if let's say one day you forgot to do something or made a big mistake around the house that you were sorry for, but yet your spouse(the cheating one)decides to rip into you for it and throws out what a horrible or stupid person you are for making that mistake. Where do things go from there as far as your next move, knowing fully that this person flat out cheated on you once or maybe a few times and was caught red handed but is ripping you apart for something a lot less serious - hmmmm??????



you clearly have a one sided view of things with an axe to grind


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> you clearly have a one sided view of things with an axe to grind



And, you obviously haven't been cheated on for twenty years, so how couldyou be expected to understand?
FORGIVENESS is for fools, forgetting after splitting is the ONLY sensible tatic.:rofl:


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

hookares said:


> And, you obviously haven't been cheated on for twenty years, so how couldyou be expected to understand?
> FORGIVENESS is for fools, forgetting after splitting is the ONLY sensible tatic.:rofl:



if I was cheated on for 20 years I would have left in a heartbeat but OP isn't saying that, he thinks EVERY case of cheating should end in D


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> if I was cheated on for 20 years I would have left in a heartbeat but OP isn't saying that, he thinks EVERY case of cheating should end in D



Although nobody has to agree with him, who's to say he isn't right? I know had I caught my ex during her first "indiscretion", which resulted in her first child, no way would I ever have been able to trust her alone had I elected to stay with her.
Others might easily elect to do so.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

hookares said:


> Although nobody has to agree with him, who's to say he isn't right?


He isn't right.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

hookares said:


> Although nobody has to agree with him, who's to say he isn't right? I know had I caught my ex during her first "indiscretion", which resulted in her first child, no way would I ever have been able to trust her alone had I elected to stay with her.
> Others might easily elect to do so.


I've found that most of the time when people use always or never that they are usually wrong

and he is wrong with my case at the very least, I'm sure hope, LM, beowulf, amp and a slew of others agree


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> I've found that most of the time when people use always or never that they are usually wrong
> 
> and he is wrong with my case at the very least, I'm sure hope, LM, beowulf, amp and a slew of others agree


Only a Sith deals in absolutes young jedi.

With that said, everyone has their own personal line that they draw as a deal breaker, but we won't know until we come to that bridge. Long ago I thought any cheating and I'm done. Yet things and circumstance can change ones viewpoint. I've always said a PA is my deal breaker, but I really wont know unless I actually came up on it.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Cee Paul said:


> I have said it a few times already that cheating is THEE ultimate knife in the back and sign of disrespect you can do to someone, and once someone has done something that wrong to you why in the world would you ever trust or respect them again?? To me if you would be willing to cheat on me you would be willing to do ANYTHING else horrible to me!


Cee Paul - How do you define forgiveness?


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> Cee Paul - How do you define forgiveness?


To me granting forgiveness takes place when (a)whatever you did to me was not sooooo severe that it warrants a permanent departure from my life, and (b) I feel that you are sincerely sorry and never meant to do that in the first place. When you meet up to have sex with someone behind your spouse's back there are A LOT of steps involved in that act, and to me that is usually something that is very calculated and planned out which tells me that you fully MEANT to do it.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Abusing your wife takes alot of steps also, 1st it takes alot of drinking, coming home late,then you have to find an accuse to push her around after she make a great dinner.

After awhile the phsysical abuse gets calculated. I fully ment to hit my wife. so that were I *was* at so many years ago.

its been 20yrs but I have been forgiven, its a good feeling.

Now about my cheating wife........well it feels just as good to be forgiven as it is to forgive.

Thats my $0.02


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

the guy said:


> Abusing your wife takes alot of steps also, 1st it takes alot of drinking, coming home late,then you have to find an accuse to push her around after she make a great dinner.
> 
> After awhile the phsysical abuse gets calculated. I fully ment to hit my wife. so that were I *was* at so many years ago.
> 
> ...


Even though abusing your wife physically is a very horrible thing as well it still ONLY involved you and your wife, and there was no third party thrown in there who was sharing body parts with her while the two of them snuck around together, while plotting against you so that the two of them don't get caught.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I can forgive that, but I'm wired different then most. LOL


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

the guy said:


> I can forgive that, but I'm wired different then most. LOL


Well then you're a bigger man than me as far as cheating goes, because if I'm ever cheated on not only is our marriage over but I'm probably going to beat the hell out of the other guy(and at 6'3 and 248 lbs it's not gonna be pretty).


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Brother, I have to fight alot of guys, probably as many bruises I but on my wife.

That, and I'm not built for prison.....jail ya, but prison is a very very bad place.

I still think that there is a degree an individual has when it come to forgiving adultory, Its clear to me just by all the different view on the awsome thread you started. Thank you for that.


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

the guy said:


> Brother, I have to fight alot of guys, probably as many bruises I but on my wife.
> 
> That, and I'm not built for prison.....jail ya, but prison is a very very bad place.
> 
> I still think that there is a degree an individual has when it come to forgiving adultory, Its clear to me just by all the different view on the awsome thread you started. Thank you for that.


Ohhhhh I am well aware how nasty prison is or can be even though I have never been myself, and although I am a big guy I'm also too pretty and too civilized to ever spend any time in there.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Cee Paul said:


> To me granting forgiveness takes place when (a)whatever you did to me was not sooooo severe that it warrants a permanent departure from my life, and (b) I feel that you are sincerely sorry and never meant to do that in the first place. When you meet up to have sex with someone behind your spouse's back there are A LOT of steps involved in that act, and to me that is usually something that is very calculated and planned out which tells me that you fully MEANT to do it.


Cee - Just to let you know my background. I come from a Christian tradition. I had theological training and served as a pastor, chaplain, and held other positions. I am not trying to force a view on you, just want you to understand what my world view is. In most Christian traditions forgiveness is mandatory. I am not saying that all Christians forgive but it is part of our tradition. It is in our holy scriptures, part of our creeds, and in our prayers.

If someone would ask me what forgiveness is I would say that it is an action that a person takes as an act of their will. Not forced but a willful act. And i would describe what it is not.

Forgiveness is not:
1. Forgetting what the person did to you.
2. Waiting for an apology.
3. Denying the wrong the person did to you.
4. It is not trusting.
5. Does not mean we do not seek out justice.
6. Is not reconsiliation. We do not have to accept the person back into our lives.
7. It is not about ceasing the pain the person caused us.
8. It is not a one time event. 

Forgiveness allows us to give up on revenge, letting go, dropping resentment, and allows us to move forward. Forgiveness is about us. It does not leave the person off the hook for what they have done it is more like cutting the line with the person still having the hook in their mouth.

Can I forgive a cheater? I have in the past in 2000. Never did when my wife had an EA in 2010 and a PA in 2011. I am still working through this. Don't know if I will. But if I do it will be something I do. 

Forgiveness may come for me and it is a personal decision.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Cee Paul said:


> Let me paint this scenario for those of you who have decided to STAY with your cheating spouse.
> 
> What happens if let's say one day you forgot to do something or made a big mistake around the house that you were sorry for, but yet your spouse(the cheating one)decides to rip into you for it and throws out what a horrible or stupid person you are for making that mistake. Where do things go from there as far as your next move, knowing fully that this person flat out cheated on you once or maybe a few times and was caught red handed but is ripping you apart for something a lot less serious - hmmmm??????


You know this USED to be me. I was this arrogant, I was this much of an ass, BEFORE my EA. I am one of the cheaters who is truly remorseful. I stood up and took ownership of my actions and choices. I not only accepted, I asked for accountability for what I had done. I took a massive shot of humiliation and pain - I earned it. I also took a massive lesson in humility, I learned it well. My point is I would never do that now - after my affair. I'm not nearly so arrogant or prideful. I learned my lesson. I think anyone who cheats and is really remorseful goes through pretty much the same thing and post reconciliation truly understands that everyone screws up and that they should treat their spouse with the same forgiveness and understanding that they were treated with. 

That's not to say that there aren't lots of reconciliation where the cheater isn't genuinely remorseful, but I think if you're examining a situation where they are, your hypothetical would not happen.


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

It seems that it does not matter what anyone says you will just bash that too or come up with “what ifs” and so on (what ifs that have nothing to do with the act of actually forgiving a WS). I think that posting here on this thread anymore is like beating a dead horse. 
Your lack of ability to understand how one can forgive, to me, says that you have done little forgiving in your life or you would be able to see how someone can, may be I am wrong in my perception of that but I am sure that the problem lays in you not us silly BS that have forgiven our WS. 

That is just how I see it at this point


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

What I always wonder is how the cheaters are able to look their cheated partner in the eye again and pretend like nothing happened...even after the R.

I'd be so ashamed of myself If I did that. I wouldn't be able to even talk to my cheated partner again. I'd want to fade away from shame and the lack of respect that I have shown to my partner. 
How can I make love to him again ...and the worse...how can he make love to me again after all I did to him???? How can the images on his head (about me and the OM) let him sleep at night? 
One has to be VERY strong to try and not think about those scenes.

How can I open my legs to another man then get back home to my man and pretend everything's alright?? I must be very evil to do that. 

I just hope I'll never ever be in that situation where I have to cheat and hopefully I won't be cheated on. And if this happens, I hope I have enoguh self-respect to not forgive my cheating partner.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

The more mercy and forgiveness you have been given, the more mercy and forgiveness you can give to others.

I've done some pretty horrible things in my life, I know the feeling of being forgiven for them. Giving that back as a gift is a very wonderful thing, for the giver and receiver.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

I stayed with Morrigan because she proved to me that she learned, she grew and she made the changes necessary to protect me. When I decided to trust her again I told her that she was in charge of my heart. It is a very fragile thing and if she broke it again it could never be fixed a second time. So now before she does, says or thinks anything her first thought is how will this affect Beowulf.

And as for the forgiveness. I did not forgive her for her. I forgave her for me. And I would have done that had we stayed together or divorced. Life is too short and too beautiful to carry around that baggage.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> I stayed with Morrigan because she proved to me that she learned, she grew and she made the changes necessary to protect me. When I decided to trust her again I told her that she was in charge of my heart. It is a very fragile thing and if she broke it again it could never be fixed a second time. So now before she does, says or thinks anything her first thought is how will this affect Beowulf.
> 
> And as for the forgiveness. I did not forgive her for her. I forgave her for me. And I would have done that had we stayed together or divorced. Life is too short and too beautiful to carry around that baggage.


your right Beowulf
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> I hope I have enoguh self-respect to not forgive my cheating partner.


Do people really think this way? Really? I didn't know these intolerant attitudes were still around.

Whenever this topic comes up I always wonder why. What does it matter to anyone else what my reasoning is for still being with my husband? I can understand why someone would want to know my reasoning, but not why they want to pass judgement on it.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Do people really think this way? Really? I didn't know these intolerant attitudes were still around.
> 
> Whenever this topic comes up I always wonder why. What does it matter to anyone else what my reasoning is for still being with my husband? I can understand why someone would want to know my reasoning, but not why they want to pass judgement on it.


People who pass judgement on others are often people who are unsure of their own thoughts/feelings and try to convince themselves at the expense of someone else.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Do people really think this way? Really? I didn't know these intolerant attitudes were still around.
> .


What's wrong with these intolerant attitudes towards cheating? 

Just because you tolerated your husband doesn't mean everyone should do the same.

Everyone is free to express their own opinion.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Yes they are but to many a position of absolute black and white -especially in something as complicated and multidimensional as cheating - smacks of inexperience and condescension. If life will teach a person anything, it will teach you that life is shades of grey - it is almost never black or white. 

So while everyone is entitled to their opinion the betrayed spouses here are entitled to say, "hope you never have to find out for yourself" and I, as a cheater, can say I'm glad I'm married to someone more tolerant and forgiving.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> What's wrong with these intolerant attitudes towards cheating?
> 
> Just because you tolerated your husband doesn't mean everyone should do the same.
> 
> Everyone is free to express their own opinion.


We aren't talking about an intolerant attitude towards cheating. We're talking about reconciliation.

And if all I was doing was TOLERATING my husband, I wouldn't be with him.

And who is asking you to 'tolerate' him???

You are not expressing an opinion. An opinion says "This is how I feel". You are saying "This is how I feel, and anyone who doesn't feel the same way is an idiot" See the difference? 

Thanks for this Beowulf: "People who pass judgement on others are often people who are unsure of their own thoughts/feelings and try to convince themselves at the expense of someone else." I was trying to think of how to say the same thing without having my post deleted.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

I apologize for my feelings in regards to reconciliation. Of course each is free to approach the way they handle their wayward spouse any way they deem necessary.
Hopefully it will work out for each of those who choose that route.
Should it not, perhaps I will have the good fortune to not open threads devoted to their failures in the future.


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

The responses have been about 50/50 on wether to forgive or not to forgive so maybe there's no right or wrong answer, so those who were bashing me for thinking this way were also bashing half of the people here as well because of our stances on NOT to forgive infidelity.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I just like to bash everyone LOL


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

If my wife wants forgiveness she can go see a priest

I am not qualified to condemn. 

I am not qualified to forgive. 

All I can do is live.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cledus_snow (Feb 19, 2012)

you know.....like COguy, i've partaken in some questionable things, but haven't cheated on someone. notice i don't say NEVER because like most WS, who didn't plan on it, we can't tell the future, right?

given my _current_ status as a filial man, i will not accept it done to me-- that's that! i will not bend backward for someone who has disrespected *me*, *our relationship*, and most of all *themselves* by cheating. like i said, i can't love someone i don't respect. 

that doesn't mean i have no respect for a fWS. there are many here on this forum that i have a high opinion of. it's the cheating part that rubs me the wrong way. if i'm able to resist temptation, even during the "downs" in a relationship-- why couldn't they? if my love for said person was good enough for me not to stray-- what happened to them? i can only surmise that they didn't feel the same way for me.....the love was one-sided. i can't live with that.




> Do people really think this way? Really? I didn't know these intolerant attitudes were still around.


yes they/we do. 

why is it intolerant? these are certain standards we set for ourselves and our SO. if they can't fit the bill, then move on. it's called _making a choice_. it doesn't make us bad people. some people can get past it, while other cannot. just like reconciling with your husband doesn't necessarily make you a weak person; ending it with a cheating spouse doesn't necessarily make me stronger for it. _it is what it is._


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

CeePaul, I think where the confusion lies is that you are thinking that forgiveness means that everything goes back to square one. This isn't usually the case. Forgiveness for a PAST action, in no way, implies that you are givng the cheater a free pass. Consider it like probation in a court. I once did something that landed me in Juvenile Court, I was put on probation for three years. That meant that I was forgiven my past action, but that I would be under suspicion and watched for three years to make sure that it never happened again. I say again, that forgiveness has nothing to do with trust.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Cee Paul said:


> maybe there's no right or wrong answer


Now your starting to understand. It's just too complicated to have a black and white answer - in either direction. There are situations where I think the betrayed spouse should call it quits and others where I think they should forgive, and those won't be the same for you or anyone else here.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

I can forgive but I cant forget,even if it was a EA with them meeting up at a K-mart parking lot,the meetings never lasted more than 5 minutes because she was so nervious,her telling him she loved him is really doing a number on me.I'm having second thoughts about our R and thats killing me.The attorney she had told her she didnt have much hope of getting the house or kidsbut I could never kick her out and see her try to make it on her own...this sucks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

calvin said:


> I can forgive but I cant forget,even if it was a EA with them meeting up at a K-mart parking lot,the meetings never lasted more than 5 minutes because she was so nervious,her telling him she loved him is really doing a number on me.I'm having second thoughts about our R and thats killing me.The attorney she had told her she didnt have much hope of getting the house or kidsbut I could never kick her out and see her try to make it on her own...this sucks
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought you guys were doing okay. What happened?


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Sounds like calvin starts to doubt if it was just an EA..


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

No,if it would have went PA I couldnt deal with it.
Its the lies,gaslighting and her telling him she loved him (15-20 times) that I'm still stuggling with,I'm sure with time it will get better.The OM taunting me didnt help either but he refused to meet me to back up his mouth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

calvin said:


> No,if it would have went PA I couldnt deal with it.
> Its the lies,gaslighting and her telling him she loved him (15-20 times) that I'm still stuggling with,I'm sure with time it will get better.The OM taunting me didnt help either but he refused to meet me to back up his mouth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can you give me a link to your story?


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> Now your starting to understand. It's just too complicated to have a black and white answer - in either direction. There are situations where I think the betrayed spouse should call it quits and others where I think they should forgive, and those won't be the same for you or anyone else here.


:iagree:

It all depends on the situation, really. My first wife cheated on me, was unremorseful and unrepentant, and left. She expected me to come after her and chase her like I did so many times before, but I had enough and finally let her go. She never once tried to come home. It was hell. 

So I remarried. My current fWW knew of my situation and promised she would NEVER do to me what my ex-wife did. And I had promised myself that I would never go thru that hell again and if she ever cheated on me, whether it be emotional, physical, or both, I would be gone no questions asked. Yet 22 years later she fell into an EA with an old HS boyfriend thru facebook. Yet here I am going thru R. The situation is different than the first wife. She stayed faithful to me all through my military career, through all the deployments, all the shift work, and we've been together far much longer than with my ex-wife. And she's remorseful, doing the heavy lifting and pretty much doing everything to win my heart and trust back. And I didn't give her that shot at R quickly, she earned it with her actions. But if it had went PA, then I don't know if I could have been able to deal with it either.

So it all depends on the situation.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

calvin said:


> No,if it would have went PA I couldnt deal with it.
> Its the lies,gaslighting and her telling him she loved him (15-20 times) that I'm still stuggling with,I'm sure with time it will get better.


That's what I struggle with to this day, and I'm nearly 2 years out. Mine said "I Love You" so many times to her OM, even calling him the love of her life, he will always be a part of her heart, she will love him no matter what and forever, she misses him SO much, whining about how she wants to meet with him, how it looks like they aren't able to meet in person yet, etc, etc, etc. Yet they hadn't even met up in person because he's in another country! 

It's difficult, I know.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

My wife finally figured the OM out,he's an ex-hs boy friend,a player,liar and a huge looser who did his best to make himself out to be something he isnt.
Finding out a couple days ago that my Dad cheated on my Mom for years hasnt help at all,
Talk about a mind fvck fest,I'm not sure if I can trust anyone now
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> Now your starting to understand. It's just too complicated to have a black and white answer - in either direction. There are situations where I think the betrayed spouse should call it quits and others where I think they should forgive, and those won't be the same for you or anyone else here.


I myself am a very loyal person and it's extremely important to me wether it's a spouse, family member, or personal friend; so I expect the exact same thing in return and if a person is unable to be trusted or can't be as loyal to me as I am to them - then again I have no use for them. There's enough con artists and/or sneaky people out there in society walking around, that I surely don't need one living in my house or hanging out with me on a regular basis. As you can tell I am not a very trusting person, and there are a million things that went on earlier in my life that could fill up a book to cause me to feel this way.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Cee Paul said:


> I myself am a very loyal person and it's extremely important to me wether it's a spouse, family member, or personal friend; so I expect the exact same thing in return and if a person is unable to be trusted or can't be as loyal to me as I am to them - then again I have no use for them. There's enough con artists and/or sneaky people out there in society walking around, that I surely don't need one living in my house or hanging out with me on a regular basis. As you can tell I am not a very trusting person, and there are a million things that went on earlier in my life that could fill up a book to cause me to feel this way.


And so you have just answered your original post.
Your answer above tells us why YOU cannot understand why some of us can forgive our spouses for their infidelity and why you never will and that is your choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

calvin said:


> I'm not sure if I can trust anyone now
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This was something that really affected me too. If my husband cheated, anyone could. Part of the reason I am with him is because he is doing everything possible to prove he WON'T cheat ever again. He doesn't mind when I get jealous - he knows why I'm like that. He doesn't mind when I peek at his email - he knows why I need to do that. He doesn't mind when he has to apologize to me again for what he did - he volunteers it quite a bit. He knows what I need and why, and that what he did will affect me for years to come. The thought of getting through all this on my own, or even worse, hooking up with someone new and having to try to explain to them what I need and why, exhausts me. Someone new would not like it if I peeked at his email or gave other signals of mistrust. My hubby understands me and often knows what I need before I do. The aftereffects of what he did would be with me whether I was alone, with him, or with someone else. I want him to be there with me through it because I think it's easier for me that way.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Cee Paul said:


> I myself am a very loyal person and it's extremely important to me wether it's a spouse, family member, or personal friend; so I expect the exact same thing in return and if a person is unable to be trusted or can't be as loyal to me as I am to them - then again I have no use for them. There's enough con artists and/or sneaky people out there in society walking around, that I surely don't need one living in my house or hanging out with me on a regular basis. As you can tell I am not a very trusting person, and there are a million things that went on earlier in my life that could fill up a book to cause me to feel this way.


For you, infidelity is an immediate deal breaker. And that's fine. Everyone has their own limit. There's nothing wrong with that, just as there's nothing wrong with those BS who offer the gift of R.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Someone new would not like it if I peeked at his email


Why do you think that? I've never had a problem with my wife checking my email. I have nothing to hide. People that don't have anything to hide don't mind transparency.

It's like that verse in the bible about those being in the light welcoming the light, those in the darkness run from it. If you're living a truthful life, you have nothing to fear from being truthful and open.


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## Ingalls (Mar 7, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> This was something that really affected me too. If my husband cheated, anyone could. Part of the reason I am with him is because he is doing everything possible to prove he WON'T cheat ever again. He doesn't mind when I get jealous - he knows why I'm like that. He doesn't mind when I peek at his email - he knows why I need to do that. He doesn't mind when he has to apologize to me again for what he did - he volunteers it quite a bit. He knows what I need and why, and that what he did will affect me for years to come. The thought of getting through all this on my own, or even worse, hooking up with someone new and having to try to explain to them what I need and why, exhausts me. Someone new would not like it if I peeked at his email or gave other signals of mistrust. My hubby understands me and often knows what I need before I do. The aftereffects of what he did would be with me whether I was alone, with him, or with someone else. I want him to be there with me through it because I think it's easier for me that way.


Hope1964 I just read your story...Loved it!!! Congrats to you!


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

COguy said:


> Why do you think that? I've never had a problem with my wife checking my email. I have nothing to hide. People that don't have anything to hide don't mind transparency.
> 
> It's like that verse in the bible about those being in the light welcoming the light, those in the darkness run from it. If you're living a truthful life, you have nothing to fear from being truthful and open.


It's just the general feeling of mistrust that I can't help but think I would bring to a new relationship. Very few people would be ok with it.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Ingalls said:


> Hope1964 I just read your story...Loved it!!! Congrats to you!


Thanks


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## reggis (Apr 11, 2012)

calvin said:


> I can forgive but I cant forget,even if it was a EA with them meeting up at a K-mart parking lot,the meetings never lasted more than 5 minutes because she was so nervious,her telling him she loved him is really doing a number on me.I'm having second thoughts about our R and thats killing me.The attorney she had told her she didnt have much hope of getting the house or kidsbut I could never kick her out and see her try to make it on her own...this sucks
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry the R is faltering but I cannot say I am the least bit surprised and I too doubt that you know the entire story nor that you ever will. 

If things don't work out you need to realize that she started it, and you are doing what is necessary to make things right including asking her to leave.

This wasn't what you asked for when you tied the knot it was dropped in your lap.

Never forget that and act accordingly!


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

The discovery of my husband's infidelity was an earth shattering life changing moment for me. I was the person who used to say cheating was a no brainer deal breaker for me. For the first few hours after d-day I thought it was only an EA and already felt like my heart had been ripped out. Upon his confession of the PA portion, I was stunned and simply said "Wow. We're getting a divorce." 

We haven't divorced and have been in R for over a year now. It was our 15 years of marriage and having two children together that convinced me to try R, not to mention I still loved him. Hated him, but loved him. Some of you may understand the feeling. Never thought it possible untill I experienced that particualar emotional roller coaster.

D-day has changed me in so many ways and some of those changes are for the better. MC has been the best thing for myself and my marriage. But I also know it probably wouldn't have been as effective had my husband not cheated. It was like the ugly truth of what my H was capable of and him finally having to face who he had become, woke us both up from a life fog.

Honestly, d-day was like waking up to find out you've been driving on a road to no where. My life suddenly snapped into focus and I didn't like what I saw. Now I feel like we're both on the right path and have a clearer picture of where we're going.

So, for me, R is working for my situation at this moment in my life. Would I have been emotionally capable of R 10 years ago? Honestly, I don't think so. Would I forgive him if he did it again? No. Not after going through all this therapy to make ourselves better people. I've said it before, the discovery of his betrayal killed my innocence, if he betrays me again it will kill my love.

Another thing I keep in mind while working towards R is wondering "what if" our situations had been reversed. What if I was swept up into the allure of someone saying all the right things, would I have stayed faithful? Physically, I'm pretty sure the answer is yes but I'm not so sure emotionally.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but no one should judge another for it. I have more self-respect now than ever. I've chosen the path that is right for me. I've grown more emotionally in the past year than I did in the last 20. The strangest part, if I was given the chance to erase d-day and my husband's infidelity from our marriage, I don't think I would do it. I faced one of my deepest fears and lived through it. I am no longer afraid to reach for goals I kept hidden in the recesses of my mind. My innocence is lost, but so is my naivety. I have an empathy and understanding for a situation I used to arrogantly claim knowledge. I love who I've become and look forward to who I'll be in the future. 

On that note, R depends on both people. If my H started being an @hole again, I wouldn't throw his affair back in his face. What purpose would that serve? With any disrespectful behavior I'd communicate it's counterproductive to a healthy marriage. So we'd either work on the issues causing @hole tendencies or move towards D. I will not be a doormat again. 

Good luck to all dealing with infidelity and to those trying to understand why some of us R. I hope no one ever has to learn this life lesson the hard way. But if you do, take it has an opportunity, whatever that opportunity may be.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

calvin, you have two roads to choose from. You can "hope for the best, but prepare for the worst". or you can see to it you don't put yourself into a position that you care either way.
I have chosen the latter, but since you appear to be somewhat younger, your choice may well be different.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Awesome post Saffron!!!


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> Awesome post Saffron!!!


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

reggis said:


> I'm sorry the R is faltering but I cannot say I am the least bit surprised and I too doubt that you know the entire story nor that you ever will.
> 
> If things don't work out you need to realize that she started it, and you are doing what is necessary to make things right including asking her to leave.
> 
> ...


I may not have everything but I know I have 99% of it,the text had some lovey dovey stuff but I was surprised that there was'nt even any sexting going on,my wife never jumped into bed with anyone quckly,I'm only the second man she's been with.I know one old boyfriend whom I get along with and he used to complain about how she was reserved,still tells me this(yeah I know then she wouldnt of had the EA on me)Her ex-hs bf,actually told her when he was in prison he had sex with other men,this disgusted her.She has told me more than a few times that she thought about sex with him down the road but wanted to see what would happen with us,that and the risk of contacting a STD from the OM was a huge risk.she wouldnt take,especially with him having sex while in prison.Our R is a little shaky,she's doing everything she can and more,right now its me,still having a hard time seeing she could fall that quick that fast and believe all of his lies,she see's he was a big bullsh!ter,a garbage man is more of a success story than OM.and she was one of a few he had roped.None of the others stayed with him long.Her telling him she loved him just drives me nuts.I caught her a few times shaking her head and muttering under her breathe how sick doing what she did makes her.We will make it,progress is there but slow,I wont be fooled again.Hate to say it and at the same time I'm glad Tams has made me a damn expert on looking for the slightest sign of an affair now.On guard the rest of my life...ugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## reggis (Apr 11, 2012)

calvin said:


> I'm glad Tams has made me a damn expert on looking for the slightest sign of an affair now.On guard the rest of my life...ugh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just like TAM is making her an expert on avoiding being caught, since she's on here too.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

^^^ That's just not helpful...


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

reggis said:


> Just like TAM is making her an expert on avoiding being caught, since she's on here too.


Uncalled for.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

reggis said:


> Just like TAM is making her an expert on avoiding being caught, since she's on here too.


You assume you know all the answers,you dont.I got the facts while you make assumptions,this will bite you in your @ss one day,no wonder you appear to be miserable
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

calvin said:


> You assume you know all the answers,you dont.I got the facts while you make assumptions,this will bite you in your @ss one day,no wonder you appear to be miserable
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly calvin, no one here can see the remorse in her eyes, or hear whats in her voice as she says she sorry, only you really can see it/hear it...

We can only go by the words that others type here on TAM, some have a way with typing words that you can almost feel them (I'm not one of those) but then again they are just words to read, you get an idea of whats it like but you dont truly know, everyones situation is different
We dont get see the OP or thier spouse...the happiness or saddness in thier face(s) and voice(s)..to see them struggle...

I will never put anyone upon a pedestal again, not that I'm bitter, I just shouldnt have put anyone up so high and that was my fault...were all human...


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

calvin said:


> I may not have everything but I know I have 99% of it,the text had some lovey dovey stuff but I was surprised that there was'nt even any sexting going on,my wife never jumped into bed with anyone quckly,I'm only the second man she's been with.I know one old boyfriend whom I get along with and he used to complain about how she was reserved,still tells me this(yeah I know then she wouldnt of had the EA on me)Her ex-hs bf,actually told her when he was in prison he had sex with other men,this disgusted her.She has told me more than a few times that she thought about sex with him down the road but wanted to see what would happen with us,that and the risk of contacting a STD from the OM was a huge risk.she wouldnt take,especially with him having sex while in prison.Our R is a little shaky,she's doing everything she can and more,right now its me,still having a hard time seeing she could fall that quick that fast and believe all of his lies,she see's he was a big bullsh!ter,a garbage man is more of a success story than OM.and she was one of a few he had roped.None of the others stayed with him long.Her telling him she loved him just drives me nuts.I caught her a few times shaking her head and muttering under her breathe how sick doing what she did makes her.We will make it,progress is there but slow,I wont be fooled again.Hate to say it and at the same time I'm glad Tams has made me a damn expert on looking for the slightest sign of an affair now.On guard the rest of my life...ugh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hang in there Calvin. Some days are good, some days not so good. One foot in front of the other.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Thanks stuggling and cant I appreciate it,seems to me the balls in my court and I'm not sure what to do.I know she's done everything and more,dont get why this is so hard.Pretty confident we'll be fine
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

calvin said:


> Thanks stuggling and cant I appreciate it,seems to me the balls in my court and I'm not sure what to do.I know she's done everything and more,dont get why this is so hard.Pretty confident we'll be fine
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its hard b/c your heart is broken. Same reason its hard for me.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> Its hard b/c your heart is broken. Same reason its hard for me.


Hey let me cheer you up.....my H gets to go sit next to his AP for 10hrs a day for 7 more days til he officially serves his last day in hell. But for those last 7 days.....IM IN HELL!!!!!! At least CSS doesnt have contact anymore. There's some good news.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

calvin said:


> Thanks stuggling and cant I appreciate it,seems to me the balls in my court and I'm not sure what to do.I know she's done everything and more,dont get why this is so hard.Pretty confident we'll be fine
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think I'm standing in the same court..(.Hi Calvin, hand me a cold beer or three please, lets get trashed and go kick the **** out of the other POSmens ) 

On a serious note, if you dont know what to do, then do nothing, when the time comes you will know...I know the hard part sucks, no matter what thou, working thru the pain is whats needed, you cant go around it....


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

You got me there,wow.I could'nt imagine that.Sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Yes, someone always has it worse....


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

I wasnt saying "poor me" just trying to say "look on the bright side" Im not at all making light of your situation. NOT EVEN A LITTLE. I am under NO illusion that even when OW is out of our lives totally, this mess is not even close to over.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> I wasnt saying "poor me" just trying to say "look on the bright side" Im not at all making light of your situation. NOT EVEN A LITTLE. I am under NO illusion that even when OW is out of our lives totally, this mess is not even close to over.


I just could not imagine being in your situation,make it a hell of a lot harder.And it is a f*cking mess,isnt it? Christ.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## profos (Apr 19, 2012)

calvin said:


> You assume you know all the answers,you dont.I got the facts while you make assumptions,this will bite you in your @ss one day,no wonder you appear to be miserable
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How do you know they're facts?

Because she told you they are?

Don't fall into the trap of believing it because you WANT to.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

profos said:


> How do you know they're facts?
> 
> Because she told you they are?
> 
> Don't fall into the trap of believing it because you WANT to.


Believe me,I've done my homework,I'm not the type to half @ss ANY type of job.Ever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

calvin said:


> I just could not imagine being in your situation,make it a hell of a lot harder.And it is a f*cking mess,isnt it? Christ.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


it sure is. Im really struggling with my anger towards him. He is working to fix it and God knows he is paying a BIG A$$ price here all around. At home and at work. Time will tell. You hang in there Calvin.


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