# I'm at a loss. Where did I go wrong? Pls help.



## Byron (Sep 24, 2014)

I am approaching mid40s and I feel like a complete failure when it comes to marriage. I find it hard to identify where the root problems really lie, is it me, her, or the relationship?

On the surface it all looks great. Almost 20 years, two fantastic kids. No arguments, harmonious. My friends think I’m extremely lucky. My wife, “Mary” is attractive, well educated, professional, extremely dutiful, sociable, and selfless. She looks after the kids and works (almost) full time, everything runs like clockwork.

Mary has never denied me sex. I can have sex anytime I want. She always looks after us a family perfectly, for example most nights I arrive home and a meal is waiting for me. Fantastic. Alas, I would gladly swap these “institutional support services” from some real feelings and a sense of togetherness and physical intimacy with my spouse.

So why do I feel like a failure, and why do I feel the marriage is falling short? After all, I’ve hit the jackpot, right? Have I failed to provide her with a relationship in which she feels “sexy”?? If this is the case, why is this all my responsibility? If it is, i really need some help because I’m clearly struggling…

After many years I have realised that what my idea of a great relationship / marriage actually differs considerably from her definition. Mary is very low maintenance, her definition of a relationship seems to be very simple. i.e. the marriage is legal and I am there as a father. She sees to have zero expectation of me as a husband. I can pay her no attention, be unreasonable, even rude, and the status quo is maintained. A whole year an go by without us doing anything together - and still we tick along. Actually, in many respects she is a simply a better person than me, of raving such low expectations and being content with just having the basics.

But this is causing me great distress and its beginning to tear me down emotionally., because I want more. I need more. The marriage feels like a sham. I have tried to discuss this, but Mary says she is very happy and gets upset when I communicate the unhappiness I feel. Then I feel bad for making her unhappy, so I let it all simmer down and we go back to normal.

However, the real sting is the sex life. When we have sex, which is actually quite often as I need it regularly (regardless of quality), its essentially ok but boring. Worse, Mary seems to be far from engaged in it and I notice the following which have for many years deeply upset me as I perceive them as a reflection of my inadequacy as a husband;

1. I love giving oral sex; she doesn’t like it all.
2. She gives oral sex but does it mechanically, as if it was a chore/duty. I always have to request it, although more recently I simply encourage her non-verbally to do so.
3. During sex she keeps her eyes closed.
4. She hates any contact with bodily, sexual fluids, including her own.
5. She only seems to gain any form of pleasure form missionary position at a specific intensity.
6. She doesn’t like sex outside of the bedroom.
7. Any communication I give with regard to likes/dislikes are acted upon once, then forgotten. It’s almost as if she’s the unwilling subordinate going through the motions after a “ticking off”!
8. She has no interest in my body, not really. It’s almost as if she finds a penis slightly disgusting in some way.

I know sex is a reflection of the state of the relationship, and I know women need different things than men before sex becomes as enjoyable. But believe me, I have tried, and nothing ultimately changes. Mary ultimately seems devoid of sexuality…certainly in terms of me and our relationship. Any attempts a flirting are mostly ignored, sexy outfits disappear immediately after purchase and so on. I feel completely alone sexually, undesired, and just someone whose needs are serviced in order to keep the family home intact. Either that, or I have chosen a partner who has issues with sex and will never change. Or, of course, both. This has resulted in behaviours on my part which conflict with my core set if values - such as meeting other women, chatting people up in bars and so. The resentment I feel just becomes too much sometimes and I have to do something to feel positive about myself. Sadly, this are very short micro-fixes of course and don’t come close to really resolving anything.

As it feels the sex is falling far short, any thoughts towards trying to improve things and work at it now feel futile. It just feels like a lost cause. 

But I blame myself. Right from the getgo I thought there was no sexual chemistry. I didn’t really fancy her If i’m brutally honest. I feel ashamed to say that, but it’s the truth. But I liked her, in fact I do love her as a soulmate and best friend, although these problems are becoming so distressing to me it’s changing the way I perceive Mary, resentment is bringing to creep in increasingly, for example.

We just can’t get the sex right. Perhaps my expectations are too high for sex and the relationship in general? Its not more or less sex, or even certain acts I desire; I just want to feel she is enjoying it, wants to have sex with me, is completely at ease about it and even initiates it from time to time. It just feels its all down to me to makes things better, communicate more, make her feel better about herself. Well, thats a pressure and expectation I find hard to deal with and adds even more negativity and concern into the mix. We have discussed sex with limited success, there is an usually a resulting improvement but it feels academic and lacking in sincerity. Also, a lot of what she says in these discussion doesn’t add up, she says she’s happy and really enjoys the sex…but I think we all know if someone is really enjoying sex or not, don’t we?

I don’t know, I doubt I’ve got my points across very well. Part of me wants those youthful relationships full of love and lust back again. I knows kids / marriage/middle age it’s all a compromise but this feel far too much a compromise. It feels like I fail to make her happy, this creates negativity and resentment in my mind, and this in turn makes things worse. Vicious circle. 

The bottom-line is that if I’m completely honest with myself, I would have to confess that if the sex isn’t right I could never truly love a woman. Perhaps Mary has picked up on this, who knows. I wish sex wasn’t so important, but it is - am I screwed up, do I see women as purely sex objects? Should I just forget about the low quality sex and be content with the positives of the relationships?

I have often considered a separation, but I was a child of a broken home and still feel the pain. I couldn’t inflict that on my kids, and the sense of failure if I did would dwarf the sense of failure I feel as a husband/lover.


Anyway, thanks for reading. I would really appreciate other views on my situation. Where have I gone wrong people? Have I just basically hooked with the wrong girl for me and never had the courage to give up and walk away? Or am I expecting too much and being immature, do I just not get it??? Just looking for some third party views / out of the box thinking…maybe I can come up with a plan and some positive steps to move forward with???


Thanks


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## Rooster2014 (Aug 23, 2014)

Byron said:


> I am approaching mid40s and I feel like a complete failure when it comes to marriage. I find it hard to identify where the root problems really lie, is it me, her, or the relationship?
> 
> On the surface it all looks great. Almost 20 years, two fantastic kids. No arguments, harmonious. My friends think I’m extremely lucky. My wife, “Mary” is attractive, well educated, professional, extremely dutiful, sociable, and selfless. She looks after the kids and works (almost) full time, everything runs like clockwork.
> 
> ...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

So...you've been married for 20 year and all during this marriage your sex life was very frequent yet mechanical, lack of passion, rigid, and lacked emotional connection and NOW you want to rewrite the history of your marriage to say you've never found her to be "all that" and at best felt she was a great friend who would oblige your sexual urges?

NOW this is a problem you can't abide?

Can you talk a little more about the conversations you have had with her regarding sex? How often, what do you say, what does she say? Do you know if she masturbates at all?

I would like to point out that perhaps your wife has always felt that sex with you was rather lacking in passionate connection and never felt that you were terribly attracted to her, yet felt you were a good man and good father so she closed up her sexual shop and decided to simply put out when needed because everything else was just fine?


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Hi Byron. 

I could have written most of your post myself, except that I'm a woman. Same age, length of relationship, number of kids and same sexual problems.

In my opinion you haven't gone wrong anywhere. It's a sexual mismatch. The bad news is that I have yet to see any hope on this board or anywhere than this condition can be healed. 

My sexual problems have been this way for nearly 20 years. And yet I was able to ignore, minimize, push them down, pretend all was well until about 18 months ago. 

I wonder if it's hitting midlife, perhaps we take stock of things. Overall I have all I've wanted in life. My dreams have come true. Except for feeling wanted and desired. Suddenly it's eating me alive, the lack of it. I'm very fond of my life. I don't want to get divorced and yet - the thought of never experiencing passionate sex drags me down each and every day. I try to tell myself to not be a baby, but I can't help it. My innermost self feels the stringent lack of it.

Because of the lack of passion, excitement, variety, the paranoia that he's humoring me, that he wishes i would just get him off and never say another word about it - I can't have orgasms with him. I've had less than 10 in 19 years with him. 

Like you said, he won't reject me. He will have sex, but to the letter of my request, not the spirit of it. I can have the sex. He will do what I ask - bit why good is it if it's not done freely. 

So anyway, sorry that is not a cure or good advice, but I feel your pain. It's awful. And then you feel guilty for finding it awful because the rest of life is pretty good. I get it.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

My first thought mirrors something you said, that she's sensed you've never been that into her. Since you need lots of sex she feels like a convenient hole. So you married a woman you weren't that into, and now you're upset there's no connection and she's not that into it? What have you done to create a connection?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Byron (Sep 24, 2014)

Miss Scarlett:
Wow, I didn't expect to hear the same story from a woman to be honest No reason not too, just a bit unexpected. I felt better after reading your reply though  - just suddenly didn't feel quite so alone in it all. Glad I posted the message, and thanks. I hear people say chemistry isn't everything, but it really feels like a long-haul without it. I'm going to what you've said a bit more overnight (am in UK). Night


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## Byron (Sep 24, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> My first thought mirrors something you said, that she's sensed you've never been that into her. Since you need lots of sex she feels like a convenient hole. So you married a woman you weren't that into, and now you're upset there's no connection and she's not that into it? What have you done to create a connection?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She married me too....I'm aware she probably perceives what I feel. Most of the time that upsets me, and so I try and just pretend all is well and that I do love her in the way I want to (but I don't..). Sometime its just easier to deny there's an issue and pretend sex isn't all that important after all....but I go to work feeling depressed and very lonely every day. She must feel the same....but can't say it?....oh what a mess :-( Thanks.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Byron,

How much time a week do you are your wife spend together, doing things that you both enjoy? Just the two of you?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Byron said:


> She married me too....I'm aware she probably perceives what I feel. Most of the time that upsets me, and so I try and just pretend all is well and that I do love her in the way I want to (but I don't..). Sometime its just easier to deny there's an issue and pretend sex isn't all that important after all....but I go to work feeling depressed and very lonely every day. She must feel the same....but can't say it?....oh what a mess :-( Thanks.


Yes she married you too. But what were her feelings when she married you? Did she think you were in love with her? Did you tell her that you were? 

Was she, is she, more in love with you then the revers?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Byron,

What things in your life do you have passion for? Could you describe to us some of these things that you do?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Byron said:


> She married me too....I'm aware she probably perceives what I feel. Most of the time that upsets me, and so I try and just pretend all is well and that I do love her in the way I want to (but I don't..). Sometime its just easier to deny there's an issue and pretend sex isn't all that important after all....but I go to work feeling depressed and very lonely every day. She must feel the same....but can't say it?....oh what a mess :-( Thanks.


She did, but as elegirl pointed out did she have the same feelings about you? How do you suppose a woman that knows you aren't into her is supposed to enthusiasticllly give and receive oral.and have any connection at all? Maybe you should just level with her and allow her to find someone who is into her. It'll hurt, but less then looking back at the end of her life and realizing she wasted her life with someone who wasn't into her. If you tell her and you guys decide to continue at least her eyes will be open. You owe this to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Byron, some people (men and women both) just aren't that sexual. So no, sex is not always a good indicator of a marriage, because some people wouldn't have great sex even if their marriage was the best they could ever find and they know it. Your wife sounds like one of these.

Bad news is, it is unlikely to change.

Good news is, you're not a jerk just because you DO want to have a great sex life in your marriage.

More bad news is, see bad news number one.

But I'm also going to throw out there, you said "Right from the getgo I thought there was no sexual chemistry. I didn’t really fancy her If i’m brutally honest." and obviously this was your mistake. People don't seem to understand that you can't just pick someone you are comfy with but feel no spark with and expect it to get better. It typically gets worse, not better.

So I wouldn't try to lay any blame on your wife, nor ask her to change. You married her even though you felt that way, and what you have now is the result of that choice.


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

What have you done to change the status quo and raise the level of passion in the relationship. Like you said, it possible she has noticed the same thing you have and is just going through the motions to keep the family together. There is most likely a pasinate woman in there somewhere. Hell, most other women would have cut you off sexually a long time ago. Get off your ass and start working to ignite her passions. Oh, buy the way. Things have been this way for twenty years. This ain't fonna be no overnight fix it it can be fixed at all. 

Ray
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Byron, some people (men and women both) just aren't that sexual. So no, sex is not always a good indicator of a marriage, because some people wouldn't have great sex even if their marriage was the best they could ever find and they know it. Your wife sounds like one of these.
> 
> Bad news is, it is unlikely to change.
> 
> ...


Well said girl
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NJD1983 (Sep 24, 2014)

I actually have read here for some time, but never posted before. I registered for the purpose of responding to this post. That is because by and large I could have written this, and so it kinda moved me. I hope I am not projecting my stuff onto you when I answer.

There are a few minor differences that I wont get into, but this is pretty much how I feel in my marriage. Its not awful by any measure. But its completely unremarkable, and we're a sexual mismatch. I am reasonably sure it is not how it is supposed to be, but I would say it isnt uncommon.

I dont think it means youre looking at women as a sex object. Wanting passion and enjoying your sex life I think is pretty normal.

Where did you go wrong? I would say the same as me. Marrying someone who is incredibly practical, with the "institutional support services," and what not, but has no passion for you. She is low maintenance too. All of that is a good thing in some ways, but "Boring" is how I have described it. That doesnt make you feel better, and its not much of a solution. You have basically two choices as I see it and neither of them is good. 

You can stick with it, and realize it probably wont get better. It could improve slightly, but probably not much. I think you cant change a tiger's stripes. 

You can leave. I come from a broken home myself too, and I get where youre coming from on that. I have no children myself so I might be off on what I am about to say. The only point I wanted to make though, and I think this is part of why my wife is the way she is to some degree. She learned this from her parents. I have spent a lot of time with them. Unlike mine, hers are still married, but their marriage is just like ours from what I can tell.

Again, I dont know you from Adam, and I hope you dont take offense to me saying this all, but I feel like passing that on to your children is a legit concern.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Byron said:


> But I blame myself. *Right from the getgo I thought there was no sexual chemistry. I didn’t really fancy her If i’m brutally honest. *I feel ashamed to say that, but it’s the truth. But I liked her, in fact I do love her as a soulmate and best friend, although these problems are becoming so distressing to me it’s changing the way I perceive Mary, resentment is bringing to creep in increasingly, for example.
> 
> We just can’t get the sex right.


Don't blame yourself. Read a thread I started here about "chemistry" in marriage. Without spark and chemistry, I believe a marriage can't be sustained...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/170618-how-important-chemistry-relationship.html


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I can't speak for everyone - but I will add my common disclaimer. In retrospect it's easy to look back and say - well what did you expect?

And yet my life with my husband now bears little resemblance to the life we had as newlyweds. Everything has evolved and improved - financial security, responsibility, income, education, goals, social status, philanthropy. 

Sadly the only thing that didn't improve all that much was our sex life - but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect. that to evolve and improve along with the other things. 

20 years of underwhelming sex also clouds your memory. I'm not that attracted to my DH at present as a result - so it's difficult to conjure feelings how they were. 

Lastly I'm not blaming the whole problem on DH. I've made plenty of mistakes myself along the way.


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## JASON56 (Aug 28, 2014)

Sex is an important part of a marriage, and to you its at the top of your list.. its important but not as important as you put it..

I am thinking your poor wife.. what does he do for her besides want sex..
Do you do anything just for her, to show you appreciate her...

There are quite a few guys that would give there left nut to be in your position.. yes really...

Have sex when you want and most of all have a wife that seems to be content with very little.. she is not a taker but a giver.. she gives everyday, day after day, no complaining.. isn't that a near perfect partner..

You have really gone through 20 yrs feeling this way... ummm

You will find as you get older sex will not be as a priority.. I think you find other things to injoy that when younger had no interest in.

I just wonder what your life would be like if you had a partner that satisfied you the way you wanted, but was far from easy going, couldn't hold down a job, the house is a mess, kids are not clean, no supper on the table when you get home, and your credit cards top up....

You see i have learnt that my partner is not perfect nor am i, but i focus on what is positive about my wife, and there are many good things that out-weight the bad.. maybe you should do the same..


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## NJD1983 (Sep 24, 2014)

MissScarlett said:


> I can't speak for everyone - but I will add my common disclaimer. In retrospect it's easy to look back and say - well what did you expect?


Truth, and its not real productive. None of us thinks this is how its going to be when we start out. We either think it isnt that important as long as we have the other stuff, or itll improve as time goes on.



> 20 years of underwhelming sex also clouds your memory. I'm not that attracted to my DH at present as a result - so it's difficult to conjure feelings how they were.


Very fair. Not nearly 20 years for me, but my best friend and I have talked about it a lot, and he says basically the same thing to me.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Well dude...I'll be honest...

I can't quite decide whether this is a troll-post or not.

But, given its length, and my perception of some 'feeling' behind it---I'll bite.

Moreover, regardless of the sincerity of this particular post...this is an accurate description of a 'real-type' of relationship/woman--- albeit a rare one.

It's actually that bit that prompts me to respond

This is not the 'common-fare' scenario that's posted here

So, if this is indeed sincere,you should know:

You are in a relationship with an uncommon type of woman

And thus, the advice I give 98% of the time, and KNOW is appropriate for 98% of the men on this board...will have absolutely no effect in your case...

And I'm really sorry for that...


_*She seems to have zero expectation of me as a husband. I can pay her no attention, be unreasonable, even rude, and the status quo is maintained.* A whole year an go by without us doing anything together - and still we tick along. *Actually, in many respects she is a simply a better person than me,* of raving such low expectations and being content with just having the basics.
_

Umm...No she's not (a better person). And you don't (really) think that either. You perceive(correctly) that YOU...'as a unique person' don't really matter...and won't ever matter.

You're more of a thing than a real person, let alone a unique person with thoughts, wants, feelings, ideas etc. 

No.

You're 'the husband'. 

On a check-list.

You meet sufficient criteria to 'be checked off'.

Nothing more.


_But this is causing me great distress and its beginning to tear me down emotionally., because *I want more. I need more. The marriage feels like a sham.* I have tried to discuss this, but Mary says she is very happy and gets upset when I communicate the unhappiness I feel. Then I feel bad for making her unhappy, so I let it all simmer down and we go back to normal._

Unless, you share a similar brain chemistry, this is basically a sham relationship. And, being married to a partner like this, will always feel like a sham relationship to someone who is capable of 'more'...

_However, the real sting is the sex life. When we have sex, which is actually quite often as I need it regularly (regardless of quality), its essentially ok but boring. Worse, *Mary seems to be far from engaged* in it and I notice the following which have for many years deeply upset me as I perceive them as a reflection of my inadequacy as a husband;_

She is not engaged.


_I know sex is a reflection of the state of the relationship
_

Umm...yes.

_I feel completely alone sexually, undesired, and just someone whose needs are serviced in order to keep the family home intact. Either that, or I have chosen a partner who has issues with sex and *will never change*. Or, of course, both.
_

This is an accurate observation on your part.

_As it feels the sex is falling far short, any thoughts towards trying to improve things and work at *it now feels futile. It just feels like a lost cause. *
_

It is.

_But I blame myself. *Right from the getgo I thought there was no sexual chemistry. I didn’t really fancy her If i’m brutally honest.* I feel ashamed to say that, but it’s the truth. 
_

Always be brutally honest with yourself (at the VERY least). Literally everyone is UTTERLY HOPELESS without some measure Self-Honesty.

The more self-honest you can be...the better your chances of securing a more satisfactory future.

_But I liked her, in fact I do love her as a *soulmate* and best friend
_

'Best-friend?'---alright, whatever you say...

'Soulmate?'----that's complete BULLOCKS or this is a TROLL on a ROLL type of post for sure!!

The type of woman described in your post is the antithesis of a 'soul-mate'

In fact, for this type of marriage to be happy...one would need to drop that word (and the goal of ever securing any sense of soul-matedness) rather quickly...



_We just can’t get the sex right. Perhaps my expectations are too high for sex and the relationship in general? Its not more or less sex, or even certain acts I desire; *I just want to feel she is enjoying it, wants to have sex with me, is completely at ease about it and even initiates it from time to time.* .... We have discussed sex with limited success, there is an usually a resulting improvement *but it feels academic and lacking in sincerity.*_


She will never feel this way.

There is nothing you can do to change this fact.

And believe me, I DON'T say that lightly (or happily). I believe that 98% of the men on this board CAN 'effect change' in their marriages by changing their behavior...thus what prompts me to respond to your post...is its rarity----because I cannot say the same for the type of marriage you have described. 



_The bottom-line is that if I’m completely honest with myself, I would have to confess that if the sex isn’t right I could never truly love a woman. 
_

Hmm...so that soul-mate thing is looking a bit more dodgy now isn't it?

Oh, and also, ALWAYS BE COMPLETELY HONEST WITH YOURSELF...

It is ruinous, tortuous and miserable IDIOCY to be anything other than completely and totally honest with YOUR own SELF.

In fact, the only person in the world, with whom one OUGHT to be completely honest, is their OWN SELF. And yet, so many people lie to themselves first and foremost.

It's a tragedy.

_I have often considered a separation, but I was a child of a broken home and still feel the pain. *I couldn’t inflict that on my kids, and the sense of failure if I did would dwarf the sense of failure I feel as a husband/lover.*
_


Okay cool.

If you REALLY, EARNESTLY and WHOLLY mean this...Good Deal...stay married, EXPECT and DESIRE no change, and feel content that you are providing your kids with the 'intact' family unit that you yourself were denied.

To me, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this, provided it is an 100% SELF-HONEST conclusion that you have sincerely arrived at in your own heart...and for your own self...

It gives me pause however, simply because, on the whole, it is very hard for us to be this 'self-less'...we are not wired for it. In fact, the slightly ironic, (but wonderful) TRUTH that kids provide adults, is an unabashed glimpse of how 'UN-selfless' we all really are.

But, if you mean what you wrote, then all is well--

Stay married, and be happy with what you have.

Stop looking for fulfillment as a husband or lover.

You will NOT secure it.

You have married a woman who is not looking for anything other than a husband in the socially-acceptable and perfunctory sense.

Simply by 'being her husband'....you are fulfilling your wife's desires.

She's not looking for 'a lover'. And literally nothing you could ever do could make her look for one.

If you threaten to leave the marriage, I have no doubt that she'll try to provide more of what she senses you want...but it won't come from any 'animal desperation' in her...because she can't be triggered by all of the 'animal tactics' I would happily suggest you employ...if I felt they would work...

Sadly, my feeling is that they will not work in your case and thus:

"it feels academic and lacking in sincerity."

is all I think you will ever feel.

So, the critical question for you is:

Can you make peace with this reality?

Ultimately, (like all of the REALLY IMPORTANT queries in our lives the answer is either YES or NO)

So Figure out which of the two it is.

And act accordingly.

Good Luck!


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

in fact I do love her as a soulmate and best friend, although these problems are becoming so distressing to me it’s changing the way I perceive Mary, resentment is bringing to creep in increasingly, for example.

That bit resonates quite deeply with me. My husband seems to love me as a soulmate and best friend - however, we have no sex life because he doesn't want me as a lover. I honestly thought when we got married that we would be lovers,, but the lovers part of the relationship stopped on the day we got married.


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## flyer (Jun 23, 2014)

Well Byron, you're not alone, totally. I share your sentiments, except my wife blows me off COMPLETELY, I'm 55, she's 52, everytime I try to initiate anything. No sex at all in more than a year now. It's to the point now I have so much resentment built up, I don't even want to talk to her.
My advice is to get/have hobbies to occupy your time. They aren't cure-alls, but they will help ease the pain somewhat.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Byron, you don't say how old your kids are, but I'll guess since you are mid 40's they are nearing teens.

Soon; 5-8 years from now they will be off to college, married or whatever. You will have an empty nest. What's been holding your relationship together so far is the kids. When they are gone, then what?

As several posters have pointed out already, you are very lucky in many ways. You have a very high compliant wife. You have great kids. You are financially stable. There is no high drama in your life. The only thing lacking is deep love and passion.

Many people would take that in a heartbeat. Can you?

That is the dilemma which you must seek the answer to.
We can't have everything in life. Show me a person who appears to have everything, and then dig deeper and you will find that they do not.

After the kids are gone, there will be only you and your wife together for the rest of your lives.

Maybe, just maybe, this will be the opportunity now or then, when you can start to learn to love her at a deep level and her you.

These are the things to ponder and think through.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Lila said:


> I wonder if the reason you are now questioning the quality of your marriage of 20 years is because you've been "meeting other women" on the side? Hmmmm.....:scratchhead:


That was exactly my thought... when you taint your feelings for your wife by engaging other women, marriage history can get rewritten. I would love to know what's behind the "and so" at the end of your description of engaging other women.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Was there ever a time, even once, when the sex was exciting for the both of you at the same time?

In 20 years? Never?

If there was at least one episode, there is hope you two can rekindle it.

I'll bet you have changed over the years as has she.

Right now the two of you are consuming the daily hamburger and you want filet mignon.

And she may not eat red meat at all.

Time to have that candid talk no matter where it leads.

Transactional sex is not that satisfying.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Lila said:


> I wonder if the reason you are now questioning the quality of your marriage of 20 years is because you've been "meeting other women" on the side? Hmmmm.....:scratchhead:


And I'm wondering why he isn't taking his wife out and chatting her up instead of other women? Why would, as he said, a year go by with them doing nothing together as a couple?

It's easy to find strangers attractive. But it's a momentary blip of attraction and ego validation, rather than a lifetime together.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Right now if you are more intimate and know the thoughts of other women better than your own wife, you have placed yourself on the wrong side of the tracks. Take your wife out and discover her all over again as if you never knew her. I bet enough time has passed since the last time you really tried to know her inner world that you will discover... you don't really know her anymore...


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## tryagain13 (Sep 15, 2014)

jorgegene said:


> As several posters have pointed out already, you are very lucky in many ways. You have a very high compliant wife. You have great kids. You are financially stable. There is no high drama in your life. The only thing lacking is deep love and passion.
> 
> Many people would take that in a heartbeat. Can you?
> .


Hello - I was in the same boat as you about 11 years ago. I chose to leave a marriage that was very good. Finances were good, parents to two beautiful little girls, he came home every night, didn't drink, didn't turn an eye toward other women, wanted to spend time together, we owned our house, both had good jobs. Why would I leave? Why would I do this to my kids? Was there Love? Yes. Dependability? Yes. However, no passion, no laughter, no witty banter, perfunctory 
communication. I chose to leave. The guilt was terrible. It affected me mentally and physically. Got pneumonia, had hives, hair loss, weight loss. Total mess. AND IT WAS THE BEST THING I EVER DID FOR HIM AND FOR ME. My ex has since remarried (recently) and the woman is PERFECT for him. Love her. They just click. I am in a fantastic relationship with someone I didn't even know could be so right for me. It took time. 11 years. But giving HIM the chance to find someone that true got him and giving ME the chance for passion, goofiness, laughter, playfulness was really the best thing.

If you end up leaving, you could be doing you both a favor. And I'm sorry to seem pro-divorce, but I can tell you that I left for what seems like less than what you're experiencing and after only 6 years and I don't regret it one bit in the long run.


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## Byron (Sep 24, 2014)

Hi all,
I have read your fascinating replies over the course of the day, and to be frank I didn't expect such thought provoking, frank, insightful, and ultimately helpful comments. I will try and reply directly to each on the thread. I really do appreciate it. Thank-you for taking the time to reply, and I'm very glad I took the time to post and become part of the forum. I hope I can help someone else in someway here...

All of the replies are fair interpretations of one aspect of my situation or another. It has lead to me to realise how confused I am about the state of the relationship. There have been times when the sex was nice..but it can be nice but still its obvious to me there is a vacuum between us intimately. Its so damn hard to truly describe in words....its like she's an android where the love/passion chip has been ripped out. I can't seem to establish any form of carrier wave wither romantically. And to the couple of replies which question my effort I can assume you I have...but when I have it has always ended in a feeling of disappointment and discontentment. I can give you one classical example. On the day of our actual marriage, a day I spent trying to make it her special day, we returned home from the ceremony and (small) reception because she was feeling tired. You know what happened next? She took of her beautiful white dress, put on slacks and a t-shirt, turned on the TV and fell asleep on the sofa. I couldn't believe it, it felt the worst day of the my life not the best. From Mary's perspective she saw a long tiring day making sure her and my family had a good time (and looking after our first child who was 3 at the time). But that was the agenda for her, not us.
Thats the rub. Duty first, fun/romance...not really important.
I hope the above example provides a bit more insight for you guys. We don't go out much, because when I do feel the vibe just isn't there and I just find it painful; the resentment and despair set in. I conclude its better for my mental health to just not aa
Its like she has an inner bubble...thats why sexuality lives (if it actually exists...) but none is allowed in there; not even me :-(, and the daily practicalities of parenthood, work, and keeping things ticking over are the most important things to her. 

I do appreciate what I have, thats why I'm still married. I try to focus on the positives every day and appreciate the great women she is. Then I feel bad for feeling the way I do, wanting all this fun/romance/good sex stuff sometimes feels immature and naive; wake up and smell the coffee I say. Most of the time I do; but sometimes it just feels my soul is kind of getting lost in the mix.

I must add some more detail. Mary does very occasionally initiate sex, in her own way. But its obvious to me its done with dutiful intention rather than real desire. I can sense it, because her actions are not being driven by a feeling arising from sexual desire or love - they are robotic and lacking in sensuality.

There have been short periods of improvement, but there have ALWAYS followed conversations where I have made it clear I feel there is a problem and I want more. A big part of me just wishes she would fess up and just say …”yep, I’m sorry, I can give you anymore nor do I want to”…but instead she kind of apologies and promises to try harder!!! So I feel bad, again. These talks we have had have been adult conversations, but the fact she seems to take it all as a criticism of her (despite how I phrase it) makes it an even harder subject to discuss.

I just wish she could just have some fun, enjoy each other, flirt a bit. When I send her a flirty text I get a humorous but off-topic reply. Message not really received. It's just like that romantic carrier wave isn't there. We do share jokes, and often find stuff our kids do hilarious of course, but there's no carry over into the romance. 

I have to log off, I will login again later.

Thanks again all.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

wow... she sounds like she was REALLY sheltered...

my first honeymoon was better than my second

but my second sex life is WAY more emotionally intimate

I track the long term emotional disconnect. I had that with my ex (17 years).


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## Byron (Sep 24, 2014)

Lila said:


> I wonder if the reason you are now questioning the quality of your marriage of 20 years is because you've been "meeting other women" on the side? Hmmmm.....:scratchhead:



No, I just wanted the feeling that a woman who had no sense of "obligation" towards me found me attractive.


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## Byron (Sep 24, 2014)

MissScarlett said:


> I can't speak for everyone - but I will add my common disclaimer. In retrospect it's easy to look back and say - well what did you expect?
> 
> And yet my life with my husband now bears little resemblance to the life we had as newlyweds. Everything has evolved and improved - financial security, responsibility, income, education, goals, social status, philanthropy.
> 
> ...


Can I ask, I understand if you would rather not answer, but can you articulate why he doesn't "float your boat"?


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## Byron (Sep 24, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> Don't blame yourself. Read a thread I started here about "chemistry" in marriage. Without spark and chemistry, I believe a marriage can't be sustained...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/170618-how-important-chemistry-relationship.html


The things is, in the first instance, there is a lack of dynamic at a higher level. We get on, rarely argue, but there is no fun...and I mean that literally.


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## Byron (Sep 24, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Yes she married you too. But what were her feelings when she married you? Did she think you were in love with her? Did you tell her that you were?
> 
> Was she, is she, more in love with you then the revers?


She says she adores me, still fancies me, etc etc. Yet, they are just words....
Honestly, I don't know. Did I tell her I love her? Yes, but not very often - but when I did it kind of sound hollow as the words left my mouth.


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## Byron (Sep 24, 2014)

IndiaInk said:


> Well dude...I'll be honest...
> 
> 
> So, if this is indeed sincere,you should know:
> ...


I'm curious to know more about these "Animal tactics" of yours!

Perhaps I should put this theory to her directly and she how she reacts. On the spot, gut reaction, am I just a mannequin husband? If not, why do I feel this way????


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## Byron (Sep 24, 2014)

jorgegene said:


> Byron, you don't say how old your kids are, but I'll guess since you are mid 40's they are nearing teens.
> 
> Soon; 5-8 years from now they will be off to college, married or whatever. You will have an empty nest. What's been holding your relationship together so far is the kids. When they are gone, then what?
> 
> ...


I agree. But I feel seriously lonely and depression is knocking on my front door.  Sitting and thinking how lucky I am doesn't seem to help....


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

This kind of reminds me of the wives who are just "arm candy"

except reversed


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Byron said:


> Can I ask, I understand if you would rather not answer, but can you articulate why he doesn't "float your boat"?


He's lower drive than me, so we started the marriage out with me at times begging him for sex. 

There was no conversational flow about sex at all. No talking about it, no planning for it, no discussing it after. He never asked me if I was having orgasms nor seemed to notice. For whatever reason I wasn't able to tell him for 18 years. 

He's never told me I was beautiful, called anything I did sexy, never said he wanted me or wanted to be with me. 

Never gave me oral or even manual stimulation until I was able to ask him for it just last year. 

Lest I make him sound like a complete ****, he is very thoughtful in other areas. And I am also culpable for letting this go on so long. I have definitely played my side of the bargain with choices I have made. I was about 18 years too late trying to correct this. 

I don't know if it can be fixed but I have now collected enough resentment over the past year since I told him I wasn't having orgasms that I now don't want sex with him at all. So I hope he's ready to go to counseling because otherwise I'm not sure what's going to happen.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Byron said:


> I'm curious to know more about these "Animal tactics" of yours!
> 
> Perhaps I should put this theory to her directly and she how she reacts. On the spot, gut reaction, am I just a mannequin husband? If not, why do I feel this way????



Just so you know, your thread alone will be helpful to people because you are 'reading' your wife accurately and you describe her and your dynamic very clearly.

I can 'read' her from what you wrote. And I like that.

Regarding animal tactics...if you're really interested...read this thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/168561-she-doesnt-like-touched.html

This is the 'textbook presentation' of a desire-less wife and the marriage dynamic it creates.

All of my replies in this thread ultimately cover pretty much all of my thoughts on the causes and remedies for 'the standard' problem.

And I think, if you just read the OP itself....you will realize that your wife....is not the same as that poster's wife.

Really, I would love to write a more detailed analysis of the nature of your wife's differences. I just don't have any time right now. I really don't have time to be writing this reply either!!

Honestly though, I've got a strong suspicion that you could do this perfectly well yourself if you just compared your wife to the one described in that post and thought about how the nature of 'what makes your wife tick' is different.

That's the *fundamental issue*...

Regarding your suggestion to just lay that theory out there...

Hey...I'd say go for it...I don't think it will help, but I also don't think it will hurt. I think it'd be a completely neutral event in your relationship and so I'd be curious about her reaction myself.

My guess is that she'd deny it instantly. Your wife is all about 'correct' answers to questions, not 'emotionally-honest' or 'self-reflective' ones...

And the 'correct answer' to: _Am I just a mannequin-husband to you? _

Is (of course) No. 


And then she'll give some sort of reply that refutes such a ridiculous notion but any defense she offers you will doubtless feel rather hollow.

There's a hollowness and "_not-there-ness_" that I suspect you will *always *feel with her. 

And as you have already CORRECTLY surmised....it's not something she's intentionally withholding, or something I think you can evoke/trigger through changing your own behavior---

she just doesn't have it in her to give you...

Honestly, if after a couple of days...such a question prompted even the _smallest amount_ of 'critical-reflection' upon the topic from her...regarding either if that "Paper-doll Husband" thing is indeed true for her...or even just 'why you might possibly feel that way in this marriage'. That would be a very hopeful sign.


My sense from what you've written is that your wife DOES NOT self-reflect or reflect upon your marriage, you, the nature of life, love, death etc, etc in any sort of 'real' way

I think that's the core problem here, and presently I don't know of a redress to offer for it


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

So true about no self reflection in her... No emotional honesty, my ex was that way...


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

It's really troubling to me that your wife is getting dumped on her for being emotionless/passionless/etc. You've admitted that you were never that into her and it was even hollow when you told her you loved her. How is any women supposed to be passionate with a guy like that? She's supposed to be super excited about giving you oral and screwing you all the time when you basically contribute nothing? You whine about what you lack but the fact is you don't contribute any passion.

So at this point it is what it is. You're entitled to passion but so is your wife, at least to the extent she wants it. Why don't you just level with her that you're not that into her and it's best to part ways? Don't go sniffing around other women like a dirtbag.....end things and look for someone that suits you better. It's not a crime to want this..but don't buy her argument that she's happy. She may not be as happy as you think, she might have just resigned herself to the fact that she's spent a big chunk of her life with a guy that doesn't fancy her, and being emotionless could be her way of coping. You'd probably be doing both of you a favor if you just pull the plug as amicably as you can. Guys here are always complaining about how soul sucking duty sex is, but lots of sex with a guy that's not into you but still needs lots of sex is soul sucking too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> It's really troubling to me that your wife is getting dumped on her for being emotionless/passionless/etc. You've admitted that you were never that into her and it was even hollow when you told her you loved her. How is any women supposed to be passionate with a guy like that? She's supposed to be super excited about giving you oral and screwing you all the time when you basically contribute nothing? You whine about what you lack but the fact is you don't contribute any passion.
> 
> So at this point it is what it is. You're entitled to passion but so is your wife, at least to the extent she wants it. Why don't you just level with her that you're not that into her and it's best to part ways? Don't go sniffing around other women like a dirtbag.....end things and look for someone that suits you better. It's not a crime to want this..but don't buy her argument that she's happy. She may not be as happy as you think, she might have just resigned herself to the fact that she's spent a big chunk of her life with a guy that doesn't fancy her, and being emotionless could be her way of coping. You'd probably be doing both of you a favor if you just pull the plug as amicably as you can. Guys here are always complaining about how soul sucking duty sex is, but lots of sex with a guy that's not into you but still needs lots of sex is soul sucking too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I'm sorry, I'm truly not interested in beginning 'an argument' here...(and thus I will not defend this post beyond the post itself...so it'll have to just stand own its own...or not) 

But---I feel this is just a 'bad-read' of this situation...and I'd hate for it to be 'a distractor' in what I think could be an otherwise...'special, useful thread'...

You have the chicken and egg mixed-up here.

He wasn't 'ever truly into her' because SHE *was always *'inherently' like 'this'...

I don't have time to craft a lengthy argument in defense of this position...so alas, I think you'll either 'get that' or you won't.

(And note...I'm not actually directing this at the poster...this is simply for 'internet posterity')

Please believe, if I thought the OP was the problem and a 'lack of passion' was the problem I would HAPPILY tell him it was ALL HIS FAULT.

I so WISH I could tell him this...

But the key paragraph, is this one:

_"After many years I have realised that what my idea of a great relationship / marriage actually differs considerably from her definition. *Mary is very low maintenance, her definition of a relationship seems to be very simple. i.e. the marriage is legal and I am there as a father. She sees to have zero expectation of me as a husband. I can pay her no attention, be unreasonable, even rude, and the status quo is maintained. A whole year an go by without us doing anything together - and still we tick along.* Actually, in many respects she is a simply a better person than me, of raving such low expectations and being content with just having the basics."_

The emboldened portion is the most relevant.

And the underlined portion is the real 'death-blow' here.

Again, you'll either 'get this or you won't'

Bottom-line: If the behavior described in the underlined portion of this quoted text...DOESN'T spark any change in sentiment in one's wife, regardless of whether that sentiment is:

A. Anger and Indignation

or 

B. A sudden resurgence of sexual attraction/increased priority of a husband's happiness on the mental list of 'important things in life" ( which is MUCH MORE common than most husbands would believe)

Well, you've got nothing to work with on the attraction/passion front.


_"You've admitted that you were never that into her and it was even hollow when you told her you loved her. How is any women supposed to be passionate with a guy like that"
_

Umm...soooooooo many of the sex-deprived husbands on this board are sooooooo, sooooooo TOTALLY INTO their wives...

It DOES NOT lead to a MORE PASSION-FILLED relationship

Frequently it leads to just the opposite.

And the Sex in Marriage Forum is proof-positive of this (rather ridiculous, yet incontrovertible) reality.

The relationship described here is a total exception to the norm....that's what makes this thread 'noteworthy'


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

Byron said:


> She says she adores me, still fancies me, etc etc. Yet, they are just words....
> Honestly, I don't know. Did I tell her I love her? Yes, but not very often - but when I did it kind of sound hollow as the words left my mouth.


Everything I know of your situation (and the many who write they empathize with you), is filtered through you, and so therefore is limited, and I guess I should apologize up front for being too blunt, but

*Have you considered that you seem to be wishing for a more DRAMATIC relationship, for possibly not the most wonderfully healthy of reasons?*


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

JASON56 said:


> ...There are quite a few guys that would give there left nut to be in your position.. yes really...
> 
> I just wonder what your life would be like if you had a partner that satisfied you the way you wanted, but was far from easy going, couldn't hold down a job, the house is a mess, kids are not clean, no supper on the table when you get home, and your credit cards top up....


Yup.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

bestyet2be said:


> Everything I know of your situation (and the many who write they empathize with you), is filtered through you, and so therefore is limited, and I guess I should apologize up front for being too blunt, but
> 
> *Have you considered that you seem to be wishing for a more DRAMATIC relationship, for possibly not the most wonderfully healthy of reasons?*


This can be very true. And yet it might not be.

With women like this it makes me wonder what it would take to rattle their cage out of being so fastidious to the point of roboticism.


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## JASON56 (Aug 28, 2014)

This is one post i would really like to hear the wife point of view, I think the husband, may learn a few things he didn't know.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

IndiaInk said:


> I'm sorry, I'm truly not interested in beginning 'an argument' here...(and thus I will not defend this post beyond the post itself...so it'll have to just stand own its own...or not)
> 
> But---I feel this is just a 'bad-read' of this situation...and I'd hate for it to be 'a distractor' in what I think could be an otherwise...'special, useful thread'...
> 
> ...



Well we'll have to agree to disagree then because I feel you have a bad read, but it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Hence i'm not going to debate you either, only op really has any idea.

I will say that while guys having passion for their wife doesn't necessarily equal passion from her, not having passion for her most certainly will guarantee no passion from her. And apparently him sniffing around other women is ok (i assume because you don't call him on it) because his wife, who's never been enthusiastically desired by him, doesn't enthusiastically given him blow jobs and screw his brains out.

Whatever, it's for him to decide. I just hope he maintains honor whatever path he chooses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Byron (Sep 24, 2014)

IndiaInk said:


> I'm sorry, I'm truly not interested in beginning 'an argument' here...(and thus I will not defend this post beyond the post itself...so it'll have to just stand own its own...or not)
> 
> But---I feel this is just a 'bad-read' of this situation...and I'd hate for it to be 'a distractor' in what I think could be an otherwise...'special, useful thread'...
> 
> ...


Whoever you are you've seen the heart of the matter. The relationship does not confirm to norms. I'm hopelessly confused. When we have discussed things, Mary says she loves me and just wants to be with me. Yet how can I honestly make her happy? Most of the time I'm in my own world and have excluded her from it because I've given up a) trying to understand the the relationship and b) I don't know how to make things better. 

Sometimes I wonder if Mary is simply of the values of another generation. Her parents are in their late 80s and been with each other since their early 20s. Maybe she just wanted to get married with someone who was going to provide financial security and not cause her any emotional pain. Well, that's me I guess.

Maybe it just black and white with her and that marriage is an institution to be upheld regardless; fun/romance/good sex are just the butterflies - nice if they happen to flyby but the absence of doesn't make for a lesser garden :-(

Its the only theory which seems to fit.

I'm more confident now, after 18 years, of my assertion that this is not how I see a relationship, and the amount of resentment building up is turning me into a person I don't want to be; especially towards my spouse.

I have to qualify some of my comments. I have had good sex with Mary, and there are times (especially after our yearly serious chat) where sex improves for a while. But having observed her carefully during these post-conversation encounters I'm sure she's doing it out of fear of me leaving. I won't because of reasons I have already outlined but it breaks my heart, my friends, honestly that it's fear which triggers a degree of sexuality in her towards me and not simply *me*.

Perhaps I should go home, pack my suitcase walk to the door and see what kind of sex ensues then 


(I'm kidding).

Perhaps I'm placing too much importance on sex. But it does seem to be a very good barometer of the state of a relationship....
I'm not the most secure of guys. Although attractive (or so I'm told!) I have always suffered from horrendous shyness partly due to a dreadful childhood. I think Mary needs someone stronger who is always happy to initiate sex and just tell her what to do - in fact she made a comment to that effect once. I'm happy to do that but not all the time to the point it feels the other person is a slave rather than a willing participant.


Anyway, all of these replies are really helping me. I feel like I suddenly have loads of friends who understand :smthumbup:

If I can provide any more info which will help you guys help me I am very happy to provide - maybe PM me? You all seem very knowledgeable and insightful.


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## justfabulous (Feb 9, 2014)

Okay, so this is a little long, but you might find the perspective helpful. 

Miss Scarlett mentioned wondering if she is being a baby by being so brought down from never having experienced passionate sex. To some degree, what I say below is as much addressed at that remark, as it is addressed at the things the OP has said. 

OP, you are describing a marriage devoid of sexual chemistry and passion. Its very valid for you to want - even crave - those things. You asked if it means you see women as purely sex objects. Based on what you've written, I don't get that vibe from you. I'm a woman. I don't take it that way. As a women, I need powerful sexual chemistry in my marriage (and thankfully have it). I don't think that means that I see men as sex objects (in fact I KNOW it doesn't), so I don't believe it means you see women that way.

For many of us, it is entirely natural and normal to need passion and chemistry within our marriages. Its part of what makes us feel most ALIVE. I think there are other types of people who do not need this. I know there are people who simply are not passionate by nature, and there are LDs. I honestly find it heartbreaking to read about passionate people married to non-passionate people, high drives married to low drives. I think a lot of people are missing out on experiencing what real fulfillment in life is, and that is just tragic. Some people will say, "Its just sex" (obviously the LDs). But its so much bigger than that. Its about spending a lifetime with someone you are incompatible with and who does not fulfill you. That ain't the way marriage is supposed to be.

Indeed, it seems that you and your wife are, sadly, very mismatched. Sexually, and perhaps in other ways as well. You have no sexual chemistry and yes, I can fully understand where that would be a very lonely, painful, numbing, empty, sad existence.

I met my husband when we were 17. Sparks flew (big time) the moment we first saw each other (yes, across a crowded room - I'm not kidding). We didnt hook up for a year after that (I was involved with someone else at the time), but it was very cool to later discover that we had both been the subject of each other's fantasies in the months following that first encounter (his were considerably more graphic than mine ). And the chemistry between us just grew more and more intense from 17 onwards. Its nearly 30 years later - sparks are still flying and there's still SERIOUS chemistry between us. This man makes me feel how every woman wants to feel with a man. Hanging out here for a while has made me realize how incredibly blessed we are. There's no other man I've truly ever wanted to be with because he just _does it_ for me. (The only exception being during a rough spell where I felt unappreciated and neglected by him - at that time I did fantasize about being desired by another man, but that was pure resentment & hurt on my part - my husband was still the only one who made my motor run). 

And I will tell you, I can not imagine being married to someone _without _that kind of chemistry and passion (reciprocated). To me, that IS NOT FULLY LIVING. It is not fully experiencing and embracing all the richness the human experience has to offer. So for you to be craving this, and feeling like you are missing out on something important.... IMO THAT'S NORMAL! Your spouse is SUPPOSED to be hot for you! And you for them. Husbands and wives are intended to want and need each other physically - to CRAVE each other in that way. That's part of how we fully give ourselves and share ourselves with our spouse. So do not diminish yourself for the fact that you crave that. 

Of course, in 22 years of marriage, and nearly 30 years together in total, there have been ups and downs between us. And there was a period of time where we lost each other for a while along the way. (I don't mean separated or strayed, but sort of grew away from each other intimately, due to life's pressures, mistakes each of us made in dealing with the other, resentments that grew between us, etc). Then just as it looked like we were starting to reel that back in, we experienced a very difficult family tragedy, AND our business/ financial situation took a major hit all at the same time -- as a result sex simply wasn't on either of our minds for a quite a while. And when it finally was again, neither of us were sure how to reconnect with one another; we later discovered we both wanted to, but neither really let on to the other because, after all we'd been through, we just weren't sure where the other was at. So we both ended up feeling lonely, undesired and unfulfilled for a while.

So what I am saying is, even though I am with a man that completely rocks my world, and always has in terms of chemistry and passion (and likewise for him), we went through a spell where we were like housemates and business partners for a while - not the passionate lovers we had been, and are again now. So I had a brief (relatively speaking) opportunity to sample that existence.

I will say, that period of my life was SO lonely. So painful. So unfulfilled. So empty. It was like an important part of me was shut down inside. I felt that sense of being undesired, unwanted, unvalidated by my spouse, whether rightly or wrongly. (And he says that's the vibe he was getting from me - go figure). I can not imagine living that way ongoing, let alone for a lifetime. 

I truly believe that experiencing passion and sexual chemistry with a person we love and are crazy about is meant to be an important part of the human experience. As a spiritually inclined person, I believe we are "spiritual beings having a human experience". And I find that our sexuality is one of the greatest joys and highest pleasures of that human experience - it is the ultimate physical experience, where you feel most in tune with your physical nature. Its a gift we are given to partake in during the time we spend as a physical beings. (Hope this isn't getting too woo-woo for you!). 

When I went thru that period where my husband and I drifted apart for a while, and then we eventually got our act back together, I realized that during that period, I hadn't really been experiencing what it felt to truly be alive. When we pulled ourselves back together, I realized how much is missing from life when you don't experience sexual chemistry with another person in the context of a loving committed relationship. I realized I hadn't truly been LIVING during that period. Even though it was only a blip on the timeline of our relationship, to this moment I feel we missed out on so much during that time, or speaking just for myself, I missed out on so much. I just can not imagine anyone living a lifetime without experiencing regular passion and chemistry with a mate you love and who loves you back (or worse yet, ongoing rejection). To me, it is as important as food. Food feeds the body. The connection you feel when you love someone physically, emotionally, mentally, sexually - and they love you back in the same way... _that feeds the soul and the spirit.
_
I really think every human being owes it to themselves to find that. But, let me be clear- I dont believe it should EVER be done through cheating in the marriage. If your marriage is such that it does not enable you to truly feel alive, you need to be honest, set both yourself and the other person free to find happiness (exception being if there is illness involved - that's a whole other show). I am an old fashioned kind of girl. I take marriage very seriously, and I believe in honoring your vows. But sometimes when 2 people get together, its a mistake. And staying together can prevent one or both of them from truly living. And life is too short for that. And I do think that, in your case, marrying someone you weren't totally into (and perhaps she wasn't totally into you either - or perhaps she just lacks passion, which would explain why you weren't totally into her), was a mistake. But mistakes happen. Especially when you are young. I can understand where, if you've never experienced real chemistry, you may not be aware of what it looks like, or that it even exists, or that you don't have it with the person you think you have it with. 

As for the kids. yeah, I know divorce can be devastating on kids. My parents split when I was 4. I think I actually dealt with it quite well, but from time to time I can see where maybe there are parts of me that were wounded (and still are) as a result. But overall, it was fine, and I still had a very happy childhood, I turned out fine, and loved both of my parents immensely.

I think that it may not be serving the children well to stay in a marriage you are not truly happy in. Kids can pick up on stuff, and you never know what conditioning or patterns you may be establishing for them. I can see where if my parents had stayed together, it may have actually set me up for problems in the future, because I would have had a dysfunctional model of what marriage looked like. Its important to be concerned for the kids, but instead of staying in a marriage that is emotionally destroying you, a solution might be to put them into counseling so they can receive healthy guidance in dealing with their feelings about the split. I also think its incredibly important that the parents project an amicable united front to the children and project that they still love and respect each other, but they just need to be apart. My parents remained on very good terms after their split, both expressing admiration for each other throughout my childhood and beyond. And I think that was the key to me growing up in a very happy childhood despite being the product of a broken home. Not saying that there weren't downsides that resulted from the fact that my parents split, but I think I was better off than I would have been if they had stayed together when it really wasn't working.

Of course, you can't control how a spouse will conduct themselves in a split, but from what you have described of your wife, OP, it sounds like she might have it in her to pull this off for the sake of the kids.

There are no guarantees. You could leave and still not find what you are looking for elsewhere. But at least you have a chance. If you stay, you'll never find it. I guess some people stay because they're afraid of losing what they DO have at the risk of never finding what they're really looking for. That's valid. But heartbreaking. To thine own self, be true.


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## lowcal (Dec 23, 2013)

So you want her to enjoy sex more, and she doesn't like giving oral sex. Then why do you keep asking her to do something she doesn't like? This is only confirming her perception that sex is a chore. Stop asking for blowjobs, and let her know that this should be an activity that both of you enjoy and if she feels like this is a chore then don't do it. Also, since she enjoys missionary then why not do that more? Does she orgasm at all?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

And was there ever a time the sex WAS hot?

Does she possess the capacity to learn?

How will you feel if someone does come along who opens her up sexually if you divorced. 

Look up Jason Julius, sex coach. She isnt the first woman with issues that has been transformed.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't see this as a problem with sex or confined to your wife. It's a desire for an ideal that cannot be fulfilled in your current circumstances. A case in point - the incidence where she was tired. It was obvious she was legitimately exhausted but she could not get a break from a man who should care about her. You wanted her to intuit that you wanted sex and give it to you no matter how exhausted she was. I see that as unreasonable and insensitive. 

Were you kind to her when she woke up or resentful? I think you should make an effort to change your whole attitude. First, review what you have going on that is good in your life and marriage. Then, let the people around you know that you appreciate the good that they bring to your life. You have a right to want more but your wife has a right to be who she is. She is the person you married. If she does not meet your requirement for the ideal woman after 20 years then it might be best for both of you to end the marriage. 

This will leave you free to find women to give you the kind of sex you want. You will be much happier. Prepare for a new relationship by being more in tune with any woman you have a relationship, empathy is a requirement. You will get as much as you give. Make sure sex is mutually enjoyable, never expect more sexual pleasure than you can provide.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

lowcal said:


> if she feels like this (oral sex) is a chore then don't do it.


If my wife thought giving me pleasure was a "chore", I'd be disappointed. I can't think of any situation in which my giving my wife pleasure is a "chore".


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Dude,

Time to take charge. Own your marriage. Own your love for her. Work on you now.

Read MMSLP. Like today. Read it several times. Execute. 

Everything you've been taught about women is wrong. Read the book now. She'll love what you will become...!!!!


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Q tip said:


> Dude,
> 
> Time to take charge. Own your marriage. Own your love for her. Work on you now.
> 
> ...


:iagree:
All you can do is change yourself.
If you are happier and more content, connecting with you will become more meaningful.

Read the threads of neuklas and Bagdon, two men who saved their marriages.

Listen more carefully to your wife. Think about what matters to her. It maybe that she does not consciously know.

Workout and build upper body muscle, reduce your stomach. Superficial but accentuating masculinity cannot hurt.

I would not want oral sex from a woman who was not into it. I wouldn't want to see her laboring over me without pleasure. I would drop it favor of better quality intercourse.

Do you give her massages?

If you have success at work, for example, a raise or promotion, does it stimulate admiration? Does she ever seem to adore you?

If you took up deer hunting and dragged home a blood carcass, would she shudder in revulsion?

Could you take her on a date to rock climb? Sky dive?

How old were you when you met? Was it time to marry? Were you both settling?

What work does your wife do? Does she have male colleagues? Do you feel that she is ever attracted to other men?

I don't think you should feel despair. Maybe you will never have good chemistry, but your situation is not sexless.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

bestyet2be said:


> *Have you considered that you seem to be wishing for a more DRAMATIC relationship, for possibly not the most wonderfully healthy of reasons?*



I was kind of wondering about that. Let me warn the audience that a DRAMA FILLED marriage is often like an Italian movie, with the requisite unpredictability, chaos, emotions, etc. 

Some people are just not emotional. That simple. As suggested this will carry you thru empty nest then what?

Don't ask for drama and passion until you know how well you can handle it and how well it can turn out -or not-.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Dramatic relationships will put you on sharp learning curve, test your resolve, and stretch your limits. The can either make you or break you.

This is the road I walk.

It is NOT for the faint of heart.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

This is eerie. I do not remember writing this post but I have lived this life for over 35 years and this sounds almost exactly like my situation.

Let me give some perspective post empty nest. Not good. We have so little in common and conversation is almost nil. She can muster up a three or four sentence conversation about the weather, then silence. I go off on these lengthy monologues hoping against hope the something I say will spark a fire in her but alas nothing but disappointment. Also, after the kids were gone she had some emotional issues involving several guys and it almost broke up the marriage. Nothing physical that I know of, pretty sure of that but not positive. She kept insisting she did it for me so she could be more desirable and more sexy. Didn't work as you might imagine.

The problem is she just has no passion. I've seen it referred to as "robotic" and that seems to be a fair assesment. She did in the beginning but I attribute that to youth and newness. We married young and she liked playing with her new toy but when the newness wore off so did the sexual frequency. Like you she "gives" me sex whenever I want but the problem is that without sensing passion from her I just don't want it that much and I am HD and would be okay with daily, which means I have always wanted it badly, just not from her. We've gone weeks on end. It has been a frustrating life!!! I would have preferred for her to "participate" rather than "put up with" but it never happened.

We also have these frequent "talks" wherein I usually drone on about our situation and she stares at me like a puppy. Then things get better for a day, maybe three and then right back into the rut. And again, like you, I think she is just worried that I'll leave. In over 35 years I've never cheated once. I would pretend to look at other women when she was with me in an attempt to get some kind of rise from her and nothing. No jealousy, no anger, nothing.

Now after all this time my youth is gone and sex is slowly becoming less important to me. It's not there yet but I feel it waning. I focus now on grandkids and it helps but doesn't alleviate.

You are not alone my friend, I am just a decade and a half ahead of you on this tortuous road. The meals on the table, the dutiful attention, I would trade it all for some real heartfelt passion. 

In the beginning I walked this road for my kids and the sanctity of my family. Then in hopes of things changing when the kids left. Now though, I'm too old and I could not take the financial burden of splitting up and losing half of everything I have so I walk this road trying to ignore the razor wire fence that lines each shoulder. It is however a dark lonely path. I have found some solace here on TAM offering up advice, hoping I can maybe help another along on their journey. It occupies the mind and redirects the focus, if only for a while. I am sorry I have no answer for you, no magic bullet. I've searched for one for many, many years but it has eluded me thus far. I still look and try but my level of resentment and hurt has almost completely overshadowed any desire I have to make this better, besides it can't get better when only one party wants it to. I wish you the best my friend.


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## jin (Sep 9, 2014)

NoChoice do you feel you made the right decision or do you regret ?


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

NoChoice - that's really sad


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

jin said:


> NoChoice do you feel you made the right decision or do you regret ?


The single biggest regret I have in life was about 6 months into my marriage when we had a fight over her blatant disregard for my feelings and I almost packed what little stuff I had and left the town we were living in for home. No kids and very little in the way of possessions. D would have been a breeze. The problem is I have this pesky thing called honor and I had made a vow....However, when my kids left I should have followed them out the door. 20/20 hindsight and all that.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Ahh...NoChoice, I both liked and disliked your posts...

You see, I DID NOT like this from the OP


_"Anyway, all of these replies are really helping me. I feel like I suddenly have loads of friends who understand 

If I can provide any more info which will help you guys help me I am very happy to provide - maybe PM me? You all seem very knowledgeable and insightful."
_

Because I know that what he really wants is a PM *full of gumdrops and lolly pops* that will make all of this stuff easier for him...and I don't have any of those to give...

And hey!! I already gave him the absolute very best I had to give him in my first post in his thread. I don't ever want to leave people dangling.

And So I wrote:

*Stay married, and be happy with what you have.

Stop looking for fulfillment as a husband or lover.

You will NOT secure it.*

She's not looking for 'a lover'. And literally nothing you could ever do could make her look for one.

"it feels academic and lacking in sincerity."

(This) is all I think you will ever feel.

*So, the critical question for you is:

Can you make peace with this reality?

Ultimately, (like all of the REALLY IMPORTANT queries in our lives the answer is either YES or NO)

So Figure out which of the two it is.

And act accordingly.*

Good Luck!"


How impressive is that!!

I distilled this whole (seemingly) blasted problem to its ultimate question.

What more do you want from me?!

But of course I know...(and despite, my mock indignation here---I certainly understand)


*The OP wants 'EASY'...and that's not gonna happen. Ever, ever
*
I'm sorry.

No one can make this easy...

And It doesn't how much 'info and insight' is provided 

In the end, this is only Hard...

And thus NoChoice, I like that your post gives credence to this truth---


"_Now after all this time my youth is gone and sex is slowly becoming less important to me. It's not there yet but I feel it waning. I focus now on grandkids and it helps but doesn't alleviate.

*You are not alone my friend, I am just a decade and a half ahead of you on this tortuous road. The meals on the table, the dutiful attention, I would trade it all for some real heartfelt passion. 
*
In the beginning I walked this road for my kids and the sanctity of my family. Then in hopes of things changing when the kids left. Now *though, I'm too old and I could not take the financial burden of splitting up and losing half of everything I have so I walk this road trying to ignore the razor wire fence that lines each shoulder.* It is however a dark lonely path. I have found some solace here on TAM offering up advice, hoping I can maybe help another along on their journey. It occupies the mind and redirects the focus, if only for a while.* I am sorry I have no answer for you, no magic bullet. I've searched for one for many, many years but it has eluded me thus far*. I still look and try but my level of resentment and hurt has almost completely overshadowed any desire I have to make this better, besides it can't get better when only one party wants it to. I wish you the best my friend."
_
Nice.

Could not have asked for someone to post something more ominously resigned and hopeless.

But, just know,* the critical question remains *critical for you too:

_Can you make peace with this reality?_

Yes, LIFE still looks at YOU in askance everyday.

And Based upon what you've written I'd have to say 'No'---to the whole Peace thing

Perhaps you are resigned to playing the bitter, unfulfilled, 'waited too long' wise elder bit on the board...

Okay. Fine.

You're allowed (and you're also allowed to say 'blah, blah finances' and 'blah, blah grandkids') 

But that's not peace.

That's just *Easy*. That's the Easy we pick year-after-year...

So...while I'll be hoping that your posts do indeed help the OP to 'get-it' and SEE what The 'EASY' future holds for him...

I'd also like for you to know that you two (YES you and the OP) are BOTH in the EXACT SAME Blasted Boat.

Okay?

And you'll BOTH remain in this boat...regardless of your 'NoChoice' mindset

(Total rubbish btw)

Until you die.

Alas, The 'critical question' only expires when you do...

So stop trying to make 'Easy' sooo easy on your 'eldered' self

Sorry.

It's not happening


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

john117 said:


> ...Let me warn the audience that a DRAMA FILLED marriage is often like an Italian movie...Don't ask for drama and passion until you know how well you can handle it and how well it can turn out -or not-.





JASON56 said:


> This is one post i would really like to hear the wife point of view...


Yes, that's what makes reading about problems like this interesting. Some people will take a really rotten situation, abusive even, and minimize it to be positive and optimistic. Others, the reverse: "I hate my gainfully employed, non-abusive, non-addicted, sexually available, etc., etc., boring spouse, because he's not passionate enough," forgetting that passionate people (High IQ, exciting, talented artist, etc.) can be the opposite of all the good stable things that are being taken for granted.

So as I wrote up front, it's a little hard to tell, but often when I read about a lack of passion, it sounds to me like, "I'd like to be kidnapped by exciting, passionate, and lustful pirates....but just pirates who are responsible, generous, respectful, and really very safe," and yet they just aren't hearing any obvious contradiction.


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

justfabulous said:


> ... Hanging out here for a while has made me realize how incredibly blessed we are. There's no other man I've truly ever wanted to be with because he just _does it_ for me. (The only exception being during a rough spell...
> 
> And I will tell you, I can not imagine being married to someone _without _that kind of chemistry and passion (reciprocated).


Or maybe you don't give yourself enough credit! Maybe there were innumerable other men you could have built a great marriage with, but you've done your part, done everything to make your marriage right, and so you don't waste a lot of energy wondering if you might have found another man, with whom a marriage could have been easier, less work, fully all of your husbands good qualities, but with some others too.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

bestyet2be said:


> Or maybe you don't give yourself enough credit! Maybe there were innumerable other men you could have built a great marriage with, but you've done your part, done everything to make your marriage right, and so you don't waste a lot of energy wondering if you might have found another man, with whom a marriage could have been easier, less work, fully all of your husbands good qualities, but with some others too.


I don't think easier would be as passionate. I believe that when one side of a relationship is easier that's when we hear the stories of disparity and LD vs. HD. I have found that life requires work and when both parties are working hard then you get the results that justfabulous posted. There needs to be balance in the passion. If both sides have none, then balanced, if both sides have lots, then balanced but when only one has it, or doesn't, then LD vs. HD. It's a complicated dynamic.

It's my belief that passion is what drives people to have the qualities you speak about her husband having and that an "easier" mate would not have those qualities, IMO. She could be the best wife alive but there needs to be someone who can recognize and realize that in order to appreciate it. Someone who will also give back and be the best husband in the world.

I believe Byron has a good cook, housekeeper and nanny, as have I, but if she isn't attentive or even aware of his needs as a wife then you can't really say she is a good one. And from my experience that's not something you can instill but rather a character trait that you either have or you don't.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

Ask yourself a serious question
Is all this just pre-affair justification? Are you considering looking elsewhere and are beginning to make a case for it...to yourself

I always think this when I hear about someone married 10, 15, 20 years and ALL of a sudden they have an epiphany that their sex life has sucked the entire length of their marriage, that they never felt wanted or desired or sexy...really...you just now realized this or you just now became fed up with it?? Be careful with what you might be considering...


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