# More Questions Than Answers...



## hubbyintrubby

Hey there, obviously new here. Me: 39 year old husband, married to 43/f. Each on our second marriages, she has teenage children and mine are just a little younger than that. We have been together for just over 3 years, married for almost a year and a half. We have always, what I would consider, to be a high conflict couple. I understand completely that every marriage has it's amount of disagreement and arguments. What we do is far different than what I feel the "normal" is...like major blow ups at least once a week, sometimes more, sometimes less. Lately feeling like I cannot do a single thing right in her eyes and she has to call me out for every single perceived discretion she can. I am at the end of my rope and now have it stuck in my head how much happier I would be without her on my back nearly as often as she is. Lately, I cannot go a day without one more thing being piled on top of the heap of things I cannot do right. Even when I feel like I'm doing something right, she's in my face showing me that that can't be true. I own up to my shortcomings and I take responsibility when she's hurt or has hurt feelings about something said, done, etc. 

I don't know what to do. We haven't been married long. We own a house together but have no children in common.


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## BluesPower

hubbyintrubby said:


> Hey there, obviously new here. Me: 39 year old husband, married to 43/f. Each on our second marriages, she has teenage children and mine are just a little younger than that. We have been together for just over 3 years, married for almost a year and a half. We have always, what I would consider, to be a high conflict couple. I understand completely that every marriage has it's amount of disagreement and arguments. What we do is far different than what I feel the "normal" is...like major blow ups at least once a week, sometimes more, sometimes less. Lately feeling like I cannot do a single thing right in her eyes and she has to call me out for every single perceived discretion she can. I am at the end of my rope and now have it stuck in my head how much happier I would be without her on my back nearly as often as she is. Lately, I cannot go a day without one more thing being piled on top of the heap of things I cannot do right. Even when I feel like I'm doing something right, she's in my face showing me that that can't be true. I own up to my shortcomings and I take responsibility when she's hurt or has hurt feelings about something said, done, etc.
> 
> I don't know what to do. We haven't been married long. We own a house together but have no children in common.


Well, at the very least, if you guys do actually love each other and care about the marriage, then you guys have to get into some type of Marriage Counseling. 

Obviously you need to work on communication. But that is going to take work on both sides. 

But try to find a good therapist and see if you guys can make some head way...


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## hubbyintrubby

BluesPower said:


> Well, at the very least, if you guys do actually love each other and care about the marriage, then you guys have to get into some type of Marriage Counseling.
> 
> Obviously you need to work on communication. But that is going to take work on both sides.
> 
> But try to find a good therapist and see if you guys can make some head way...


We've been to 2 separate MC's with little to show for it. The first suggested we separate which I was all for, but my wife would not. She said it was stay together no matter what or divorce automatically so that was a no-go. My personal opinion was that we just needed time and space apart from each other for a bit, and she did not agree.


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## notmyjamie

hubbyintrubby said:


> We've been to 2 separate MC's with little to show for it. The first suggested we separate which I was all for, but my wife would not. She said it was stay together no matter what or divorce automatically so that was a no-go. My personal opinion was that we just needed time and space apart from each other for a bit, and she did not agree.


Is it possible she knew you weren't ready to divorce so that wasn't a worry for her? If you mention it again that you are starting to think that's a possibility if you can't get your differences worked out she may feel differently. Of course, don't bring up divorce if that's not something you're prepared to do.


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## Andy1001

hubbyintrubby said:


> We've been to 2 separate MC's with little to show for it. The first suggested we separate which I was all for, but my wife would not. She said it was stay together no matter what or divorce automatically so that was a no-go. My personal opinion was that we just needed time and space apart from each other for a bit, and she did not agree.


You have to take the lead here and make some changes because what you’re doing isn’t working. 
You are also giving your children some terrible lessons in what a marriage is supposed to be like. 
Do you want them to believe that all a marriage is is a war of attrition ?


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## hubbyintrubby

notmyjamie said:


> Is it possible she knew you weren't ready to divorce so that wasn't a worry for her? If you mention it again that you are starting to think that's a possibility if you can't get your differences worked out she may feel differently. Of course, don't bring up divorce if that's not something you're prepared to do.


I need to be very careful before using the D word again in this situation. It's kind of why I'm here. I need clarity that I can't seem to grasp on my own or in conversation with her anymore. Right now I feel like that is exactly what is needed...cut my losses, move on with my children and be done. But I need to be sure. I need to see it much more clearly than I can right now.


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## notmyjamie

hubbyintrubby said:


> I need to be very careful before using the D word again in this situation. It's kind of why I'm here. I need clarity that I can't seem to grasp on my own or in conversation with her anymore. Right now I feel like that is exactly what is needed...cut my losses, move on with my children and be done. But I need to be sure. I need to see it much more clearly than I can right now.


I think some individual therapy might help you in that regard. A good therapist can help you see things more clearly. 

Have you sat down with your wife and asked what she's feeling about all the bickering? Is she one of those people that bickering and nitpicking is just a normal part of a relationship? There are lots of people who think it's just fine oddly enough. 

At the very least you need to let her know you're unhappy with the situation as it is right now. Ask how she feels about it and ask if she has any ideas on fixing things between you. That might be a good starting place. You would know better than me of course but I'd start there.


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## hubbyintrubby

notmyjamie said:


> I think some individual therapy might help you in that regard. A good therapist can help you see things more clearly.
> 
> Have you sat down with your wife and asked what she's feeling about all the bickering? Is she one of those people that bickering and nitpicking is just a normal part of a relationship? There are lots of people who think it's just fine oddly enough.
> 
> At the very least you need to let her know you're unhappy with the situation as it is right now. Ask how she feels about it and ask if she has any ideas on fixing things between you. That might be a good starting place. You would know better than me of course but I'd start there.


I've seen a couple of IC's as well. Perhaps not the right ones, but the one that knew the most told me that he saw little chance of this working out long term and he couldn't understand how I hadn't run...and she hadn't run, for that matter, already. 

We talk about the bickering and nitpicking almost constantly. It's a major problem in my life, and not in hers. Her first marriage was full of it also. There were so many red flags when we first got together, this included, that I just ignored because of those love blinders.

She knows how deeply unhappy I am, and all she does is put the walls up and defend herself and tell me it's up to me to change my own narrative.


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## notmyjamie

hubbyintrubby said:


> I've seen a couple of IC's as well. Perhaps not the right ones, but the one that knew the most told me that he saw little chance of this working out long term and he couldn't understand how I hadn't run...and she hadn't run, for that matter, already.
> 
> We talk about the bickering and nitpicking almost constantly. It's a major problem in my life, and not in hers. Her first marriage was full of it also. There were so many red flags when we first got together, this included, that I just ignored because of those love blinders.
> 
> She knows how deeply unhappy I am, and all she does is put the walls up and defend herself and tell me it's up to me to change my own narrative.


Well, if she's aware of how you feel and doesn't want to change to better the relationship I guess that says it all. Think long and hard: What will you feel if 10 years from now you're still dealing with all this same stuff? 

You have ONE life to live. It's up to you to make it a happy one or a miserable one. I finally chose happy after 14 years of miserable...wish I'd done it long ago.


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## hubbyintrubby

notmyjamie said:


> Well, if she's aware of how you feel and doesn't want to change to better the relationship I guess that says it all. Think long and hard: What will you feel if 10 years from now you're still dealing with all this same stuff?
> 
> You have ONE life to live. It's up to you to make it a happy one or a miserable one. I finally chose happy after 14 years of miserable...wish I'd done it long ago.


I'll tell you, if you couldn't tell already, that I am leaning towards leaving. I am more unhappy in this relationship in general than I was in my first marriage. That speaks volumes to me.


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## wilson

hubbyintrubby said:


> She knows how deeply unhappy I am, and all she does is put the walls up and defend herself and tell me it's up to me to change my own narrative.


Any problem in marriage can be solved if both people are committed to fixing it. But if her attitude is "There's nothing wrong with me. The problem is you can't handle me. You figure out how you can deal with me.", then it's going to be essentially impossible to make things better. 

I can't imagine this environment is good for the kids. It's probably emotionally destructive to them to see the parents fighting all the time. If your kids are pre-teen, then they likely have their own personal emotional toil going on like is common at that age. Forget about you and your wife--do what's best for your kids.


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## hubbyintrubby

wilson said:


> Any problem in marriage can be solved if both people are committed to fixing it. But if her attitude is "There's nothing wrong with me. The problem is you can't handle me. You figure out how you can deal with me.", then it's going to be essentially impossible to make things better.
> 
> I can't imagine this environment is good for the kids. It's probably emotionally destructive to them to see the parents fighting all the time. If your kids are pre-teen, then they likely have their own personal emotional toil going on like is common at that age. Forget about you and your wife--do what's best for your kids.


They absolutely do and I feel immensely guilty about the few arguments we've had while they've been home. It had gotten so bad at one point that my 11 year old daughter texted her grandmother to come pick her up because she was scared. That makes me so sad to think about that I, and we, let it get that out of control. I don't want that life for them. That has figured very heavily into this whole thing. That is not their mother and they are not all that bonded to her to begin with.


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## LimaTango

I am sorry you're going through this.

I'd be curious to know.... how were each of your first marriages? Any chance she found reason to criticize her 1st husband like she does to you? Is there a commonality here between either your or her marriage to what you're seeing now?

I'll say this.... weekly arguments like you describe aren't normal. Marriage does take work but weekly blowups aren't expected. I had a girlfriend like this once and she always found a way to make the most mundane situation a 5 alarm fire. It was exhausting. Worst relationship ever. I finally decided I'm a nice enough guy and shouldn't have to put up with this in a girlfriend.

I realize the marriage is another level of commitment. But this almost sounds unhealthy for both of you.


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## hubbyintrubby

LimaTango said:


> I am sorry you're going through this.
> 
> I'd be curious to know.... how were each of your first marriages? Any chance she found reason to criticize her 1st husband like she does to you? Is there a commonality here between either your or her marriage to what you're seeing now?
> 
> I'll say this.... weekly arguments like you describe aren't normal. Marriage does take work but weekly blowups aren't expected. I had a girlfriend like this once and she always found a way to make the most mundane situation a 5 alarm fire. It was exhausting. Worst relationship ever. I finally decided I'm a nice enough guy and shouldn't have to put up with this in a girlfriend.
> 
> I realize the marriage is another level of commitment. But this almost sounds unhealthy for both of you.


I appreciate your concern, thank you.

Her first marriage was very full of conflict, much like ours currently is. He used to say things like "I feel bad for the next man who ends up with you" and things similar to that. That alone should have been a little bit of a red flag, but I saw it as him just being mean to her at the time. My first marriage was NOTHING like this...it was actually the very opposite. We rarely fought and should have fought about the important things more. 

Our fights have NEVER seemed normal to me, but they do to her. She just says, all couples fight, conflict is normal. Nothing about ours feel that way to me and never have. I feel like I would know "normal". Like I said, there were so many red flags I missed in the name of love, passion, etc etc etc that made me push right past any of this. I am exhausted, extremely exhausted. That is the perfect word to describe where I am right now.


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## notmyjamie

hubbyintrubby said:


> I am exhausted, extremely exhausted. That is the perfect word to describe where I am right now.


I've been in a relationship that made me feel that way. I felt like I was drowning all the time. The very best thing I've ever done for myself was leave.


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## BluesPower

hubbyintrubby said:


> We've been to 2 separate MC's with little to show for it. The first suggested we separate which I was all for, but my wife would not. She said it was stay together no matter what or divorce automatically so that was a no-go. My personal opinion was that we just needed time and space apart from each other for a bit, and she did not agree.


To be honest, I kind of agree with your wife on that. I believe that if you want to work on the marriage, then separating in not a good thing. Some people feel differently, but I think if you can't work it out or be working on the marriage, then you need to just pull the band aid off and get a D.

How did the MC go? Was any progress made? Can you guys communicate about anything? 

Frankly, it sounds like both of you have some issues, and I get some of yours and feeling beat up by your partner. 

But can she articulate what her actual problems are? 

With my last ex, literally she as just nuts. She had a NEW big, ever moving problems, every time we went to the MC. 

The problem was she was just nuts...

And don't think that I am saying that your a perfect or she is a monster, because I am not. We only have your side of the story. 

Without more details it is really hard to say what is going on. 

But, keep looking to MC's... the are SOME good ones out there, but there are a lot of super crappy ones...


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## hubbyintrubby

BluesPower said:


> To be honest, I kind of agree with your wife on that. I believe that if you want to work on the marriage, then separating in not a good thing. Some people feel differently, but I think if you can't work it out or be working on the marriage, then you need to just pull the band aid off and get a D.
> 
> How did the MC go? Was any progress made? Can you guys communicate about anything?
> 
> Frankly, it sounds like both of you have some issues, and I get some of yours and feeling beat up by your partner.
> 
> But can she articulate what her actual problems are?
> 
> With my last ex, literally she as just nuts. She had a NEW big, ever moving problems, every time we went to the MC.
> 
> The problem was she was just nuts...
> 
> And don't think that I am saying that your a perfect or she is a monster, because I am not. We only have your side of the story.
> 
> Without more details it is really hard to say what is going on.
> 
> But, keep looking to MC's... the are SOME good ones out there, but there are a lot of super crappy ones...


Perhaps I knew deep down even then that I really didn't want to separate but really wanted the divorce.


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## hubbyintrubby

I rarely know when she's happy or content. I ALWAYS know when she is angry, frustrated, upset, *fill in negative feeling here*. That is exhausting by itself. I have no problem listening and apologizing when I'm wrong or when I'm the reason for the negative feelings, but when they are almost constant, it makes me want to just stop.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

hubbyintrubby said:


> I rarely know when she's happy or content. I ALWAYS know when she is angry, frustrated, upset, *fill in negative feeling here*. That is exhausting by itself. I have no problem listening and apologizing when I'm wrong or when I'm the reason for the negative feelings, but when they are almost constant, it makes me want to just stop.


Constant nagging and butt hurt feelings over every little thing taken out of context really kills marriages. Some people are just not hardwired to handle stress or anger appropriately. Sometimes you can predict them by counting the days of the month, though.


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## hubbyintrubby

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Constant nagging and butt hurt feelings over every little thing taken out of context really kills marriages. Some people are just not hardwired to handle stress or anger appropriately. Sometimes you can predict them by counting the days of the month, though.


That might be a part of the problem, but I don't want to lay anything completely on that. 

A huge problem is that the more often we started fighting, the more severe we started fighting, I started finding myself more angry than I've ever been. Saying things I wouldn't say to my worst enemy in the face of receiving the same treatment. Basically in a way, I found me lowering myself to a level that I've never been and I feel extremely guilty that I let myself get to that point.

It's gotten to the point where police have been called because I had felt we had lost control of the situation. I try to leave to cool off, and she has blocked the car in and caused damage to the vehicle to keep me from leaving. Things have been thrown, damage to the house has been caused, by both of us. She continues to shame me for feeling like the police needed to be called but I stand by the decision to do so. I've never dealt with anything like this in my life.


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## Prodigal

hubbyintrubby said:


> A huge problem is that the more often we started fighting, the more severe we started fighting … It's gotten to the point where police have been called because I had felt we had lost control of the situation. I try to leave to cool off, and she has blocked the car in and caused damage to the vehicle to keep me from leaving. Things have been thrown, damage to the house has been caused, by both of us. She continues to shame me for feeling like the police needed to be called but I stand by the decision to do so. I've never dealt with anything like this in my life.


This doesn't sound like a marriage, it sounds like a war zone. Sure, couples argue. But what you are experiencing - and participating in - is beyond the pale. People who love each other sometimes say things they regret. But what you are describing is downright nasty and violent.

Nope. Not normal. Not even close. I generally suggest separation over divorce, but it sounds like she has black-and-white thinking when it comes to that. I'd just divorce her, move on, and enjoy living quietly alone.


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## wilson

I don't really see the point of going to MC until she gets her anger under control. I don't see this as a marriage problem. I see this as a problem with how she expresses herself. The solution is *not* for you to walk on eggshells and make everything perfect so she never gets upset. The solution is for her to learn how to express herself in a constructive way like a rational adult.

I think that MC might actually be detrimental at this point. It may empower her to think that this is partly your problem and that you have to change so she doesn't feel the need to act out. I would suspect that her time in MC would be spent giving every excuse why she shouldn't have to change and giving lots of reasons you need to change. It would be like working with an alcoholic spouse in MC. The problem is more a problem of one person rather than a dysfunction of the marriage.

From what you've been describing, start doing some reading on the mindsets of victims of domestic violence. It's common for people to somehow become accustomed to it or think they deserve it. I don't think you're at that point yet, but start reading about it now so you can recognize if you start going down that path. If the genders were reversed where the husband was doing all this stuff to the wife, we'd be urging her to get out immediately whatever it takes. You've already shared enough details that makes me think you should start having an exit plan just for the safety of you and your kids.


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## MEM2020

HiT,

Why not move out and then if she chooses to divorce - accept that for the lack of commitment it is. 




hubbyintrubby said:


> I rarely know when she's happy or content. I ALWAYS know when she is angry, frustrated, upset, *fill in negative feeling here*. That is exhausting by itself. I have no problem listening and apologizing when I'm wrong or when I'm the reason for the negative feelings, but when they are almost constant, it makes me want to just stop.


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## WorkingWife

What type of things cause the frequent conflicts? Can you give some examples?

Do conflicts *usually *start with her getting mad at you, or you getting made at her?

My first thought is "cut your losses" but knowing a bit more would be helpful. There might be things you can do but it depends on what is causing the conflict. (Is she determined to be mad at you or are you inadvertently doing things things that really frustrate her.)

What was your relationship like before you married?

It's good that she was willing to go to MC, but her approach - stay married no matter what or divorce right now - seems extreme. Do you think she could be bi-polar or have some kind of mental health issues?



hubbyintrubby said:


> Hey there, obviously new here. Me: 39 year old husband, married to 43/f. Each on our second marriages, she has teenage children and mine are just a little younger than that. We have been together for just over 3 years, married for almost a year and a half. We have always, what I would consider, to be a high conflict couple. I understand completely that every marriage has it's amount of disagreement and arguments. What we do is far different than what I feel the "normal" is...like major blow ups at least once a week, sometimes more, sometimes less. Lately feeling like I cannot do a single thing right in her eyes and she has to call me out for every single perceived discretion she can. I am at the end of my rope and now have it stuck in my head how much happier I would be without her on my back nearly as often as she is. Lately, I cannot go a day without one more thing being piled on top of the heap of things I cannot do right. Even when I feel like I'm doing something right, she's in my face showing me that that can't be true. I own up to my shortcomings and I take responsibility when she's hurt or has hurt feelings about something said, done, etc.
> 
> I don't know what to do. We haven't been married long. We own a house together but have no children in common.


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## Spotthedeaddog

Some people seek drama in their lives, they aren't comfortable with situations which aren't chaotic, and if the other people in their lives aren't upset or off-balance they find a way to make that happen.
Some of them do this deliberately, but compulsively; others aren't even aware of it and blame others for either making them do it, or for allowing it to occur (ie they just find another excuse to fight over to avoid dealing with any issue).

If you stay in the relationship, you will be blamed.
If you leave, you will be blamed for that.
Spot the pattern? Whatever is happening in the world, it's not that persons fault, they are "just coping the best they can"(TM).....


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## MattMatt

hubbyintrubby said:


> I've seen a couple of IC's as well. Perhaps not the right ones, but the one that knew the most told me that he saw little chance of this working out long term and he couldn't understand how I hadn't run...and she hadn't run, for that matter, already.
> 
> We talk about the bickering and nitpicking almost constantly. It's a major problem in my life, and not in hers. Her first marriage was full of it also. There were so many red flags when we first got together, this included, that I just ignored because of those love blinders.
> 
> She knows how deeply unhappy I am, and all she does is put the walls up and defend herself and tell me it's up to me to change my own narrative.


And is this why her first marriage blew up? 

Therapy sessions for you might be like sending the fire crews to the house in the next street and wondering why the house in the next street over is still on fire.

Your wife needs help. You? Maybe not.


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## Spotthedeaddog

MattMatt said:


> Your wife needs help. You? Maybe not.


But aren't they both in it together?


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## MattMatt

spotthedeaddog said:


> But aren't they both in it together?


Because making someone have treatment when there is nothing wrong with them is an exercise in futility.

Her current husband did not blow up her previous marriage.


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## hubbyintrubby

wilson said:


> I don't really see the point of going to MC until she gets her anger under control. I don't see this as a marriage problem. I see this as a problem with how she expresses herself. The solution is *not* for you to walk on eggshells and make everything perfect so she never gets upset. The solution is for her to learn how to express herself in a constructive way like a rational adult.


Attending the couple of MC's we saw seemed fruitless. My wife actually would argue with the first one we saw, the one I liked best and thought had the best chance of finding a path for us. She'd get upset after appointments that we talked too much about me, and not enough about her and her feelings, which I did not agree with. I'm not saying I don't contribute to problems in the house, because I know nobody is perfect in that way. We've both made small incremental changes in how we deal with things and react to things, but in an overall sense, I feel roughly the same even after those changes.


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## hubbyintrubby

MEM2020 said:


> HiT,
> 
> Why not move out and then if she chooses to divorce - accept that for the lack of commitment it is.


Maybe I'm scared? I don't know. I've thought about it endlessly lately. I'm scared to put the kids through one more big life change. I guess maybe I should look at a change like that as a positive for them, and not a negative. Maybe that would help.


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## hubbyintrubby

WorkingWife said:


> What type of things cause the frequent conflicts? Can you give some examples?
> 
> Do conflicts *usually *start with her getting mad at you, or you getting made at her?
> 
> My first thought is "cut your losses" but knowing a bit more would be helpful. There might be things you can do but it depends on what is causing the conflict. (Is she determined to be mad at you or are you inadvertently doing things things that really frustrate her.)
> 
> What was your relationship like before you married?
> 
> It's good that she was willing to go to MC, but her approach - stay married no matter what or divorce right now - seems extreme. Do you think she could be bi-polar or have some kind of mental health issues?


A lot of conflict comes from me not responding or reacting to things the way she would like me to. For instance, she got visibly angry at ME last night when my 9 year old son was getting close to completing his chore for the weekend of not washing the entryway floor to her satisfaction. I watched him clean that and the bathroom, and from what I saw, he was doing a fine job. It wasn't good enough for her, so she went in and re-cleaned the bathroom and the floor. The things that are good enough for me, never seem to be good enough for her. I listen to her feelings about it, but it doesn't stop. I give and show empathy, I tell her I understand her viewpoint, but that doesn't seem good enough either. I tried to convey these feelings I'm having of rarely being or doing well or good enough in her eyes, and it turned into a 4 hour long argument.

Many, many times, it is my perception and feeling that she is simply determined to be mad about something and it's mostly aimed entirely at me. I don't go out of my way to frustrated her. Of course some things I do are going to cause frustration, like I said I'm not perfect and would never claim to be. I get normal, everyday frustration...I get there myself. This feels like so so so much more than that.

Our relationship was similar to this before we got married. The problems just seem more severe now at times. I think I'm finally finding a limit to what I can handle and what I can't.

I've suspected that she is BPD at some points, but no diagnosis of anything like that. Maybe just a high conflict personality?


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## hubbyintrubby

spotthedeaddog said:


> Some people seek drama in their lives, they aren't comfortable with situations which aren't chaotic, and if the other people in their lives aren't upset or off-balance they find a way to make that happen.
> Some of them do this deliberately, but compulsively; others aren't even aware of it and blame others for either making them do it, or for allowing it to occur (ie they just find another excuse to fight over to avoid dealing with any issue).
> 
> If you stay in the relationship, you will be blamed.
> If you leave, you will be blamed for that.
> Spot the pattern? Whatever is happening in the world, it's not that persons fault, they are "just coping the best they can"(TM).....


I've suspected this for a long time with my wife. I've (maybe wrongly) brought this suspicion to her attention and I bet you can guess how that went. I'm guessing that was the wrong move. It's ok for me to think that, but airing that particular issue to her probably wasn't the best idea. In my mind I guess I blame myself for letting the behavior occur for so long and not doing much about it.

Yes, blame is a big issue for me. I'm not afraid to take responsibility for my shortcomings, but it seems as if I'm being blamed almost daily for things that most people I guess would let go from time to time. Like the saying goes, sometimes it's just not worth the fight(?) That doesn't seem to hold true in my wife's world.


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## hubbyintrubby

MattMatt said:


> And is this why her first marriage blew up?
> 
> Therapy sessions for you might be like sending the fire crews to the house in the next street and wondering why the house in the next street over is still on fire.
> 
> Your wife needs help. You? Maybe not.


I'm sure it contributed to why the first marriage didn't go well, yes. Along with other problems. They were just not a good fit in many areas overall.

MC seemed like an exercise in futility at the time, and looking back, still feels that way. Very little was gained. My wife had a hard time seeing where she could be wrong, even after being faced with it point blank by a professional. 

She tells me she believes she's gotten all the help she feels like she needs. I'm sure I could use a little help too. The one IC I saw that I actually liked and saw as a fit, she got upset about me seeing because he wasn't a Christian and she felt as if he was actively trying to get me out of the marriage because he saw smoke and fire.


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## Bluesclues

hubbyintrubby said:


> MEM2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> HiT,
> 
> Why not move out and then if she chooses to divorce - accept that for the lack of commitment it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm scared? I don't know. I've thought about it endlessly lately. I'm scared to put the kids through one more big life change. I guess maybe I should look at a change like that as a positive for them, and not a negative. Maybe that would help.
Click to expand...

Since the police are being involved and your child has had to contact relatives because she is scared, a big change might come your way that you didn’t plan for. If that continues, at some point a child protective services agency may be informed. You could be found guilty of child neglect just for having a heated argument with your wife, no violence needed, and that could impact your custody. How the two of you interact is actually quite serious in the eyes of child welfare folks.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Bluesclues said:


> Since the police are being involved and your child has had to contact relatives because she is scared, a big change might come your way that you didn’t plan for. If that continues, at some point a child protective services agency may be informed. You could be found guilty of child neglect just for having a heated argument with your wife, no violence needed, and that could impact your custody. How the two of you interact is actually quite serious in the eyes of child welfare folks.


This is exactly a huge thing I'm afraid for. My ex, the childrens' mother has brought her concern to my attention a few times now as the kids obviously talk to her about the things going on at my house. She has told me she is concerned about the amount of conflict in the home. That alone is reason enough in my eyes to leave, no matter how my current wife would react to me doing such a thing.


----------



## TRy

hubbyintrubby said:


> she got visibly angry at ME last night when my 9 year old son was getting close to completing his chore for the weekend of not washing the entryway floor to her satisfaction. I watched him clean that and the bathroom, and from what I saw, he was doing a fine job. It wasn't good enough for her, so she went in and re-cleaned the bathroom and the floor. The things that are good enough for me, never seem to be good enough for her. I listen to her feelings about it, but it doesn't stop. I give and show empathy, I tell her I understand her viewpoint, but that doesn't seem good enough either. I tried to convey these feelings I'm having of rarely being or doing well or good enough in her eyes, and it turned into a 4 hour long argument.


 She is not just being abusive to you, but is being abusive to your children. Yes this is abusive behavior. She also showed your child that although you thought that he was doing a fine job, what you thought did not matter to her, as only her opinion mattered and that your child should only answer to her and what she thinks.

You have only known her for 3 years, and have already seen 2 MCs and 2 ICs. She is creating unhappiness in your life and in the life of your children. Before the damage she is doing to your children, and to your long term relationship with them becomes permanent, you need to take them out of this environment. You need to do this for them.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

TRy said:


> She is not just being abusive to you, but is being abusive to your children. Yes this is abusive behavior. She also showed your child that although you thought that he was doing a fine job, what you thought did not matter to her, as only her opinion mattered and that your child should only answer to her and what she thinks.
> 
> You have only known her for 3 years, and have already seen 2 MCs and 2 ICs. She is creating unhappiness in your life and in the life of your children. Before the damage she is doing to your children, and to your long term relationship with them becomes permanent, you need to take them out of this environment. You need to do this for them.


What kills me about last night is that he could clearly hear from his bedroom upstairs what she was angrily saying about it. The kids were excited to watch a movie after chores were done, and after she talked, confronted, whatever...me about the chore that wasn't done to her satisfaction, he all of a sudden wanted nothing to do with coming down to watch the movie with us. He spent the rest of the night upstairs in his room by himself after not seeing me all day long as I was at work. We have the kind of relationship where I'm lucky enough to still be his hero-figure at his 9 years old. I just wanted to cry. 

After behavior like this for much of our relationship...my wife wonders why my son doesn't like to come out of his bedroom when I'm at work and it's only my wife and the kids home.


----------



## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> Perhaps I knew deep down even then that I really didn't want to separate but really wanted the divorce.


In my experience, if you know deep down that you want a divorce, that feeling is going to fester and grow and grow (especially in the environment you're in now). Better for all to rip the band aid off sooner rather than later.


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## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> I started finding myself more angry than I've ever been. Saying things I wouldn't say to my worst enemy in the face of receiving the same treatment. Basically in a way, I found me lowering myself to a level that I've never been and I feel extremely guilty that I let myself get to that point.


A spouse should bring out the best in you, not the worst. You need to get out ASAP. You don't want to be this person and you don't want your children seeing you handling conflict this way.


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## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> What kills me about last night is that he could clearly hear from his bedroom upstairs what she was angrily saying about it. The kids were excited to watch a movie after chores were done, and after she talked, confronted, whatever...me about the chore that wasn't done to her satisfaction, he all of a sudden wanted nothing to do with coming down to watch the movie with us. He spent the rest of the night upstairs in his room by himself after not seeing me all day long as I was at work. We have the kind of relationship where I'm lucky enough to still be his hero-figure at his 9 years old. I just wanted to cry.
> 
> After behavior like this for much of our relationship...my wife wonders why my son doesn't like to come out of his bedroom when I'm at work and it's only my wife and the kids home.


BE the hero that your son sees and save him from this TOXIC WOMAN. Even if you were wrong and she was right (which isn't the case here) you do not want your son exposed to an environment with this woman in it another day. Criticizing you for not being a cleanliness-nazi over a NINE year old cooperatively doing his chores? Your son staying in his room to avoid this shrew? Cut your losses and save your son. NOW.

3-4 years? This needs to become a life lesson in the rear view mirror as soon as possible.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

WorkingWife said:


> A spouse should bring out the best in you, not the worst. You need to get out ASAP. You don't want to be this person and you don't want your children seeing you handling conflict this way.


No, I don't. It's breaking my heart.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

MEM2020 said:


> HiT,
> 
> Why not move out and then if she chooses to divorce - accept that for the lack of commitment it is.





hubbyintrubby said:


> Maybe I'm scared? I don't know. I've thought about it endlessly lately. I'm scared to put the kids through one more big life change. I guess maybe I should look at a change like that as a positive for them, and not a negative. Maybe that would help.


It's ok to be scared... what is not ok is to live scared.

I am not a big believer in separation generally unless divorce is the target, and then it is only to get your mind right for the challenges ahead.

Toxic incompatibility will never be without the loss of respect, the need for projection, the belittling of value, the loss of compassion and empathy.

There is fear and there is danger... I think you are drifting to the latter.

Walls or not, you are letting her set all the boundaries... what are yours?

Transcend your fears... you will not move in the right direction until you do.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Emerging Buddhist said:


> It's ok to be scared... what is not ok is to live scared.
> 
> I am not a big believer in separation generally unless divorce is the target, and then it is only to get you mind right for the challenges ahead.


I can definitely see your take on separation. There are so many outlooks on this one subject. The fact is, I can pick out a handful of situations, times in our relationship that I feel like I should have left and started proceedings and just didn't out of probably a number of reasons why.


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## Emerging Buddhist

hubbyintrubby said:


> I can definitely see your take on separation. There are so many outlooks on this one subject. The fact is, I can pick out a handful of situations, times in our relationship that I feel like I should have left and started proceedings and just didn't out of probably a number of reasons why.


What are those reasons why you didn't?


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Emerging Buddhist said:


> What are those reasons why you didn't?


A big one is that I don't want to hurt her. Second is I'm scared of putting my kids through another big life change, like I said earlier. Third, I guess there is a fear of being a failure and that stigma that goes along with being twice divorced.


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## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> No, I don't. It's breaking my heart.


It's really sad, especially if you love this woman-or thought you did. But this is YOUR life and you do not have to let another person reduce you to something less than yourself. You KNOW this woman is not good for you or your family. It's up to YOU to take control back over yourself and your life so that YOU are not a man who yells and screams and throws things and subjects his children to a home with a woman who is unkind to them (and their father).

It took me 50 years to realize this but a relationship is much more than how much you love someone else. It is also how you work together. How you feel about yourself when you're with the other person. Also, I haven't read you saying this, but if part of you is wanting to hang on just to avoid admitting defeat or not be embarrassed that everyone will know your second marriage failed, get over that. Other people are interested in themselves, not keeping a scoreboard over your life. This marriage is NOT going to work out, so why not end the pain and mitigate the financial damage ASAP. Don't become someone you don't want to be because of what others might or might not think.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

WorkingWife said:


> It's really sad, especially if you love this woman-or thought you did. But this is YOUR life and you do not have to let another person reduce you to something less than yourself. You KNOW this woman is not good for you or your family. It's up to YOU to take control back over yourself and your life so that YOU are not a man who yells and screams and throws things and subjects his children to a home with a woman who is unkind to them (and their father).
> 
> It took me 50 years to realize this but a relationship is much more than how much you love someone else. It is also how you work together. How you feel about yourself when you're with the other person. Also, I haven't read you saying this, but if part of you is wanting to hang on just to avoid admitting defeat or not be embarrassed that everyone will know your second marriage failed, get over that. Other people are interested in themselves, not keeping a scoreboard over your life. This marriage is NOT going to work out, so why not end the pain and mitigate the financial damage ASAP. Don't become someone you don't want to be because of what others might or might not think.


Of course I love her. I probably always will in my own ways either way this thing goes. But I've always known love cannot be enough. There is so much more that pours into this situation from all sides. A huge part of my problem is how I feel about myself when I'm with my wife. 

It's amazing...there aren't very many times when I'm home, or anywhere for that matter, alone with my 2 children and nobody else, but those are my very favorite times in my life right now and have been for quite some time. I think that is a good barometer to where these problems have led me and us.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

I get all of your reasons... but what is the reality in each?

I was married for 28 years, together for 30 in a toxically incompatible relationship trying to do the right thing, fight the right fight, struggle through the right struggle... it got so bad that my ex called me a martyr when I told her I was doing all these for her and in a moment of letting her control my emotions told her she was right, I was saving some other poor man from having to deal with this.

Not my proudest moment in many ways and in the end when she as done with all I had to offer she did what was ultimately best for us both and offered a divorce where she quit what I was not willing to.

Your children will appreciate you relieving them from all this conflict around you... they will understand your actions of loving them in ways that will bond you for the rest of your life. Some changes are simply necessary... 

That was my third marriage... 3 months after my divorce I was offered a chance to be a great date and am now married (yes, my fourth) to one who loves, honors, and respects all that another could not... and I her.

Stigma be damned... I would have missed a wonderful thing if I believed in them so do not let them stop you from mindful greatness as you will find yourself worrying too much about what other's think.

Learn these lessons... know why this was not the right thing in your life as these lessons do not leave us until they are learned. Once you learn and bring forth this good baggage you will begin to be able to observe the "Right Understanding" -Am I seeing what’s really there or what I want to see?

It will not be without pain, but growth and the right change often isn't.

Courage my friend... peace is not guaranteed but you will be in a much better place to attain it when you are done.


----------



## wilson

hubbyintrubby said:


> What kills me about last night is that he could clearly hear from his bedroom upstairs what she was angrily saying about it. The kids were excited to watch a movie after chores were done, and after she talked, confronted, whatever...me about the chore that wasn't done to her satisfaction, he all of a sudden wanted nothing to do with coming down to watch the movie with us. He spent the rest of the night upstairs in his room by himself after not seeing me all day long as I was at work. We have the kind of relationship where I'm lucky enough to still be his hero-figure at his 9 years old. I just wanted to cry.


It is clear he's being negatively impacted by her behavior. He's just a kid and doesn't have the life experience to put her behavior in context. To him, the family is his whole world and this is the world he knows. Things have to change in a big way and in a hurry for this not to make a permanent impact on who he is and how he thinks of himself.


----------



## alte Dame

I think that when you are completely out of love with her, you will leave. It sounds like she is killing whatever love you have. The time will come when you are just past it and then she won't have any say on whether you separate. I would make this clear to her. Either serious change now or separation/divorce.


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## Livvie

alte Dame said:


> I think that when you are completely out of love with her, you will leave. It sounds like she is killing whatever love you have. The time will come when you are just past it and then she won't have any say on whether you separate. I would make this clear to her. Either serious change now or separation/divorce.


I think leaving only when he is "completely" out of love with her is a bad idea.

His child is being harmed by this toxic person. It may be the damage she has already done will have a permanent effect on him in some way.

I'm advocating for the child here. Get him out of this environment.


----------



## alte Dame

Livvie said:


> I think leaving only when he is "completely" out of love with her is a bad idea.
> 
> His child is being harmed by this toxic person. It may be the damage she has already done will have a permanent effect on him in some way.
> 
> I'm advocating for the child here. Get him out of this environment.


I'm not saying that that is what he should do. I am saying that that is what will happen if he doesn't do something affirmative for himself now. All of the arguments he now marshals against leaving will be irrelevant when he's done. None of those arguments will matter. He will just be done. Why not tell her now and instigate the separation?


----------



## hubbyintrubby

alte Dame said:


> I'm not saying that that is what he should do. I am saying that that is what will happen if he doesn't do something affirmative for himself now. All of the arguments he now marshals against leaving will be irrelevant when he's done. None of those arguments will matter. He will just be done. Why not tell her now and instigate the separation?


I understand this completely. Those reasons are all quickly fading as it is. I'm starting to feel the loss of emotional connection, care about the things I'm supposed to be caring about. Every single day is something new she is not happy about. Every. Single. Day.


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## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> Of course I love her. I probably always will in my own ways either way this thing goes. But I've always known love cannot be enough. There is so much more that pours into this situation from all sides. *A huge part of my problem is how I feel about myself when I'm with my wife.*
> 
> It's amazing...there aren't very many times when I'm home, or anywhere for that matter, alone with my 2 children and nobody else, but those are my very favorite times in my life right now and have been for quite some time. I think that is a good barometer to where these problems have led me and us.


My ex and I didn't have the volatile conflict you two have but he was constantly belittling me. Like it was a joke/sarcasm, but at some point it really wears on you. Anyhow, I had a couple different friends who I love being around say to me, at different times "I love being around you because I always feel good about myself when I'm with your for some reason." And I realized I felt the same way around them. They I realized I felt BAD about myself -- uncertain, insecure, too loud, too happy, too ditzy, too SOMETHING when I was with my Husband. And I didn't like the person I was becoming either -- critical, sensitive, cold, etc. We got divorced and it's like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders and heart.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

WorkingWife said:


> My ex and I didn't have the volatile conflict you two have but he was constantly belittling me. Like it was a joke/sarcasm, but at some point it really wears on you. Anyhow, I had a couple different friends who I love being around say to me, at different times "I love being around you because I always feel good about myself when I'm with your for some reason." And I realized I felt the same way around them. They I realized I felt BAD about myself -- uncertain, insecure, too loud, too happy, too ditzy, too SOMETHING when I was with my Husband. And I didn't like the person I was becoming either -- critical, sensitive, cold, etc. We got divorced and it's like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders and heart.


That light feeling is what I have been chasing for far too long now. I feel that pressure every single day. It feels like an elephant standing on my chest or my heart placed in a vice and squeezed. A few weeks ago, I got the chance to attend a baseball game with a friend of mine and his wife that I was friends with before my first divorce, but there were only enough tickets for me to attend, without my wife. I had a very clear picture of what that light feeling looks like that night. I had the best night I had had for longer than I could remember. It gave me a feeling almost as if the boss was off duty, and that is very sad to me. I didn't have to edit what I'd say, I didn't have to worry about making a silly, stupid, maybe offbeat comment. Nothing. I had no worries and it was the most carefree I had felt in I don't know how long.


----------



## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> That light feeling is what I have been chasing for far too long now. I feel that pressure every single day. It feels like an elephant standing on my chest or my heart placed in a vice and squeezed. A few weeks ago, I got the chance to attend a baseball game with a friend of mine and his wife that I was friends with before my first divorce, but there were only enough tickets for me to attend, without my wife. I had a very clear picture of what that light feeling looks like that night. I had the best night I had had for longer than I could remember. It gave me a feeling almost as if the boss was off duty, and that is very sad to me. I didn't have to edit what I'd say, I didn't have to worry about making a silly, stupid, maybe offbeat comment. Nothing. I had no worries and it was the most carefree I had felt in I don't know how long.


Yep. And your friends liked you because you are you, quirks and all, and you felt the same way about them.

My ex wanted nothing to do with my family. Or any friends I had before I knew him. To my shame, I let him isolate me from my friends and family because I felt I was a bad wife if I pushed him to be around people he didn't want to be around or if I went to see them without him. At some point - after at least 15 years of the distancing - I got a hold of my self and realized I should not let him stop me from having people I loved and cared about in my life and I started going to family gatherings without him. 

The worst possible thing for our marriage happened. I thought I would feel lonely and self conscious without him there -- everyone else's spouse was there, but instead I had MORE FUN without him than I *ever *could have had with himEveryone was just COMFORTABLE and I felt like I could BE MYSELF, and that was suddenly a GOOD thing. I could enjoy my family and friends without his judgments and displeasure and disapproval and sulky attitude that he wanted to be ANYWHERE but there with THOSE losers... 

Here is a good song for you to listen to: 




I also have a new boyfriend and it is just SO DIFFERENT to be with an emotionally healthy person. There is no tension. No drama. My ex would say "You have this fantasy that someone or something somewhere else is going to make you happy and it's just all in your head, you should not compare yourself to other people." Well guess what? I wasn't happy then and I am happy now. If that's all in my head, who cares? I'm too happy and carefree to worry about it.


----------



## TAMAT

HIT,

There is no chance she is going to improve, 

Your kids don't need to see this....what a horror show worse than anything in the movies

Please just divorce and don't look back or answer calls or messages.

She will try to sex bomb you to keep you to stay don't fall for it.


----------



## jlg07

How about next time she gets in your face about something, just calmly say "I don't deserve this and will no longer be talked to in this fashion. If you want to TALK, we can talk, but this isn't talking" Then get up and go into a different room.
If she comes after you, make sure the room has a lock.

Give her 1/2 hour to calm down. If that doesn't work, next time make it an hour. THen 1.5 hours. If it takes longer than that, then you REALLY need to consider if this is something you want to continue living with.


----------



## OnTheFly

hubbyintrubby said:


> After behavior like this for much of our relationship...my wife wonders why my son doesn't like to come out of his bedroom when I'm at work and it's only my wife and the kids home.


She KNOWS why he doesn't want to be around her, nobody is that dense. 

She's an emotional terrorist/vampire.

Some people get off on controlling the emotions of others.....why does is seem it's never to make others happy, only sad??

Deep down you know the right thing to do.

Like another person said upstream, ''stigma be damned''


----------



## alte Dame

People often say that other people can't make you happy. You are in charge of your own happiness.

To this, I say, 'fair enough,' but other people can certainly make you unhappy. Your recourse in that case is often to simply get away from those who cause the unhappiness.

If you stick with this thread, you will likely more and more come to terms with the idea of separation. She doesn't get a veto. You can separate. If divorce follows, well, then it follows.

Life is too short to live the way you are living.


----------



## WorkingWife

alte Dame said:


> To this, I say, 'fair enough,' but other people can certainly make you unhappy. Your recourse in that case is often to simply get away from those who cause the unhappiness.


And that's a fact, Jack.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

WorkingWife said:


> Yep. And your friends liked you because you are you, quirks and all, and you felt the same way about them.
> 
> My ex wanted nothing to do with my family. Or any friends I had before I knew him. To my shame, I let him isolate me from my friends and family because I felt I was a bad wife if I pushed him to be around people he didn't want to be around or if I went to see them without him. At some point - after at least 15 years of the distancing - I got a hold of my self and realized I should not let him stop me from having people I loved and cared about in my life and I started going to family gatherings without him.
> 
> The worst possible thing for our marriage happened. I thought I would feel lonely and self conscious without him there -- everyone else's spouse was there, but instead I had MORE FUN without him than I *ever *could have had with himEveryone was just COMFORTABLE and I felt like I could BE MYSELF, and that was suddenly a GOOD thing. I could enjoy my family and friends without his judgments and displeasure and disapproval and sulky attitude that he wanted to be ANYWHERE but there with THOSE losers...
> 
> I also have a new boyfriend and it is just SO DIFFERENT to be with an emotionally healthy person. There is no tension. No drama. My ex would say "You have this fantasy that someone or something somewhere else is going to make you happy and it's just all in your head, you should not compare yourself to other people." Well guess what? I wasn't happy then and I am happy now. If that's all in my head, who cares? I'm too happy and carefree to worry about it.


WW, I'm so so happy for you that no longer makes you feel the way you used to feel. 

You have no idea how true this is ringing for me. My wife shames me for even WANTING to see and be with friends that are still friends with my ex-wife. I've been breaking away from that lately and feel good for doing so. I went to dinner a month or two ago with a friend that is still in fairly close contact with my ex, and went to the baseball game. In both instances, I had a wonderful time. I thought the same, that I would feel lonely or incomplete without here there with me, but I felt more the opposite and it felt strangely calming to me. Sulky is the exact word I'd use for her behavior in so many situations. 

Honestly, I dream of a life with being with somebody and being somebody and feel that light feeling of no tension, no constant judgement of absolutely everything that is happening and not have drama just bleeding everywhere based on that. My wife says she thinks I just want nothing but happiness all the time...and to that I can only say...doesn't everybody WANT that? I know I'm not dumb enough to know that everything can just be happy all the time...but I also know there is SO much more happiness out there for me, and I want it bad. Does that make selfish?


----------



## hubbyintrubby

TAMAT said:


> HIT,
> 
> There is no chance she is going to improve,
> 
> Your kids don't need to see this....what a horror show worse than anything in the movies
> 
> Please just divorce and don't look back or answer calls or messages.
> 
> She will try to sex bomb you to keep you to stay don't fall for it.


I agree, sadly. I've waited and waited for the situation to improve to a point where I start to feel comfortable and that is not coming. There have been small, incremental changes made for short periods of time but not enough to move the needle as they are not lasting.

That bombing has occurred over and over as I've grown more tired and exhausted and distant, and continues to this day. That has occurred because I've allowed it to and that's on me.


----------



## alte Dame

Of course it doesn't make you selfish. It makes you unrealistic, in my opinion, but not selfish. No real, long-term relationship will be filled with happiness all the time, but the arc over time should tip into the happy range or else the relationship isn't really good for you, is it?

That being said, though, I don't think it's happiness that's really at issue here. Your arc in your marriage is in the misery range most of the time. It's not that you are unhappy. You are abused and miserable. You want some relief from that. Wanting not to be abused and miserable is not selfish. It's self-defense.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

jlg07 said:


> How about next time she gets in your face about something, just calmly say "I don't deserve this and will no longer be talked to in this fashion. If you want to TALK, we can talk, but this isn't talking" Then get up and go into a different room.
> If she comes after you, make sure the room has a lock.
> 
> Give her 1/2 hour to calm down. If that doesn't work, next time make it an hour. THen 1.5 hours. If it takes longer than that, then you REALLY need to consider if this is something you want to continue living with.


I have started to walk away. I've attempted in the past and it only makes her more angry. Most people can cool down after some time to think. She ONLY gets more mad and more angry...and madder and angrier the more time that passes. 

One morning a few months ago when I got up for work at 5 am, I made it clear that it wasn't a good time to talk about her being mad from the night before and I left the room to leave for work. She followed me downstairs and started SCREAMING at me and woke up every child in the house on a Saturday morning. This is not going to end well.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

OnTheFly said:


> She KNOWS why he doesn't want to be around her, nobody is that dense.
> 
> She's an emotional terrorist/vampire.
> 
> Some people get off on controlling the emotions of others.....why does is seem it's never to make others happy, only sad??
> 
> Deep down you know the right thing to do.
> 
> Like another person said upstream, ''stigma be damned''


Deep down I really do know. I know. I've tried to tell her for a while that she needs help and that my perception of things is that her emotions and feelings RUN our household. She of course does not agree and tells me that I'm mean for even thinking that, let alone say it.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

alte Dame said:


> People often say that other people can't make you happy. You are in charge of your own happiness.
> 
> To this, I say, 'fair enough,' but other people can certainly make you unhappy. Your recourse in that case is often to simply get away from those who cause the unhappiness.
> 
> If you stick with this thread, you will likely more and more come to terms with the idea of separation. She doesn't get a veto. You can separate. If divorce follows, well, then it follows.
> 
> Life is too short to live the way you are living.


I'm coming more and more to terms with what needs to happen every single day. Receiving your folks' ideas, comments, concerns, opinions has been very eye opening. I've not wanted to face this for far too long out of some sort of weakness I have. I know I need to be a stronger man for both myself and for my kids that I cherish so damn much.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

alte Dame said:


> Of course it doesn't make you selfish. It makes you unrealistic, in my opinion, but not selfish. No real, long-term relationship will be filled with happiness all the time, but the arc over time should tip into the happy range or else the relationship isn't really good for you, is it?
> 
> That being said, though, I don't think it's happiness that's really at issue here. Your arc in your marriage is in the misery range most of the time. It's not that you are unhappy. You are abused and miserable. You want some relief from that. Wanting not to be abused and miserable is not selfish. It's self-defense.


Right...I definitely do not expect happiness all the time. That would be a fool's errand in my mind. I know every single relationship has times of conflict, argument, fight, etc. I agree...I don't think happiness is the entire picture here either. It's so much more and I've never been able to put my finger on it or as close to it as it is right now.


----------



## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> WW, I'm so so happy for you that no longer makes you feel the way you used to feel.
> 
> You have no idea how true this is ringing for me. My wife shames me for even WANTING to see and be with friends that are still friends with my ex-wife. I've been breaking away from that lately and feel good for doing so. I went to dinner a month or two ago with a friend that is still in fairly close contact with my ex, and went to the baseball game. In both instances, I had a wonderful time. I thought the same, that I would feel lonely or incomplete without here there with me, but I felt more the opposite and it felt strangely calming to me. Sulky is the exact word I'd use for her behavior in so many situations.
> 
> Honestly, I dream of a life with being with somebody and being somebody and feel that light feeling of no tension, no constant judgement of absolutely everything that is happening and not have drama just bleeding everywhere based on that. My wife says she thinks I just want nothing but happiness all the time...and to that I can only say...doesn't everybody WANT that? I know I'm not dumb enough to know that everything can just be happy all the time...but I also know there is SO much more happiness out there for me, and I want it bad. Does that make selfish?


EXACTLY. No, it doesn't make you selfish and believe me, it is attainable. At least it seems that way to me right now. I'm not saying there are never ANY issues with my new BF, but they is just none of the DRAMA. NEVER a worry that something has annoyed him and now he's going to suck all the joy out of life. NEVER a worry that I've said or done something that has offended him and I'm going to be blind sided with an attitude from him. It's actually hard for me to stop being paranoid that I've said or done something "inappropriate" but I'm slowly getting the hand of this "all's well" thing.

What I realize now is the "grow up, happiness does not exist" routine is always paired with trying to keep you away from other people you care about because time with other people is proof that happiness DOES exist. You W is deeply insecure, but instead of trying to be a nicer, kinder person to keep your love, she is trying to keep you from the rest of the world. Even hurting your relationship with your children.

Reading your post I have to think your Wife sounds so much like my ex in the way she tries telling you happiness does not exist that I'd say I should introduce her to my ex once you get out of that relationship. Except, he would NEVER put up with her drama, LOL.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

WorkingWife said:


> EXACTLY. No, it doesn't make you selfish and believe me, it is attainable. At least it seems that way to me right now. I'm not saying there are never ANY issues with my new BF, but they is just none of the DRAMA. NEVER a worry that something has annoyed him and now he's going to suck all the joy out of life. NEVER a worry that I've said or done something that has offended him and I'm going to be blind sided with an attitude from him. It's actually hard for me to stop being paranoid that I've said or done something "inappropriate" but I'm slowly getting the hand of this "all's well" thing.
> 
> What I realize now is the "grow up, happiness does not exist" routine is always paired with trying to keep you away from other people you care about because time with other people is proof that happiness DOES exist. You W is deeply insecure, but instead of trying to be a nicer, kinder person to keep your love, she is trying to keep you from the rest of the world. Even hurting your relationship with your children.
> 
> Reading your post I have to think your Wife sounds so much like my ex in the way she tries telling you happiness does not exist that I'd say I should introduce her to my ex once you get out of that relationship. Except, he would NEVER put up with her drama, LOL.


You know, I've had pangs of that feelings like she had been actively trying to keep me away from certain people, but I would always dismiss that in the name of loving her and her loving me. I've known for a while there has to be a reason when I'm happier, lighter, more "myself" when I'm not with her or she is not around. It was never clear, but it's becoming more and more clear now.

We should get those 2 together and just watch the fireworks lol!


----------



## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> You know, I've had pangs of that feelings like she had been actively trying to keep me away from certain people, but I would always dismiss that in the name of loving her and her loving me. I've known for a while there has to be a reason when I'm happier, lighter, more "myself" when I'm not with her or she is not around. It was never clear, but it's becoming more and more clear now.
> 
> We should get those 2 together and just watch the fireworks lol!


My ex never would have told me I can't see someone. Rather he just used his attitude of displeasure and resistance in joining in to make it clear that our marriage would be better if I stayed away from those people. And if I ever did arrange a get together, even with his permission, he was just basically a **** to me leading up to it and afterwards. He didn't have to "forbid" me, I understood. 

If I wanted to go see family without him he wouldn't say no, but he'd make it very clear that he didn't want me leaving, he wanted me home with him, us together. But no, he wasn't going to go with me. I could be a bad wife and abandon my husband, or I could sit at home with him and have relative peace.

On few occasions (maybe once every 2 or 3 years) when we did go somewhere together or I had people over he always made it uncomfortable. If I had people over he was always "sick" in bed most of the time. If we went to see family he dictated the schedule to minimize contact with them as much as possible. And then there was the sulky, pouty, difficult, irritated attitude the whole time...

But I totally embraced all his friends and family because I knew they were important to him, and he never questioned that because his friends and family = GOOD, mine = SUCK.

*SO PLEASE TELL ME YOU"RE GETTING OUT OF THIS MARRIAGE ASAP. And you're not letting her talk you into staying/trying/whatever.* If not for yourself, do it for your son. He should not grow up in an environment like this where he can't relax and be himself and be loved and treasured for who he *is*, no matter how much you love your wife. She can find someone else to love her. She will be fine. 

Take what you've learned from this relationship and find an and adult capable of being loved and loving you back. And take what you learned from your first marriage and be sure to discuss things of concern early on. Dang, your life could be SO much happier. (Even if you stay single for some time and just enjoy your children and friends.)


----------



## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> I have started to walk away. I've attempted in the past and it only makes her more angry. Most people can cool down after some time to think. She ONLY gets more mad and more angry...and madder and angrier the more time that passes.


That is because her anger is not genuine anger at something you have done. It is a manipulation to get something from you -- a concession? Drama? Attention? who knows, but "anger" is the tool her subconscious knows to use. So when a little anger doesn't get her what she wants, she just digs in and doubles down. 

When a person is genuinely angry at something, time and space helps them calm down and gain objectivity.

You say she hasn't been diagnosed bi-polar or anything like that. Are you familiar with Narcissistic personality disorder? If not, read up on it a bit. She may be a narcissist. If she is, the only thing you can do to solve it is leave and save yourself because a narcissist is basically impossible to have a good relationship with but they have no desire to change who they are because from their perspective there is no problem.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

WorkingWife said:


> My ex never would have told me I can't see someone. Rather he just used his attitude of displeasure and resistance in joining in to make it clear that our marriage would be better if I stayed away from those people. And if I ever did arrange a get together, even with his permission, he was just basically a **** to me leading up to it and afterwards. He didn't have to "forbid" me, I understood.
> 
> If I wanted to go see family without him he wouldn't say no, but he'd make it very clear that he didn't want me leaving, he wanted me home with him, us together. But no, he wasn't going to go with me. I could be a bad wife and abandon my husband, or I could sit at home with him and have relative peace.
> 
> On few occasions (maybe once every 2 or 3 years) when we did go somewhere together or I had people over he always made it uncomfortable. If I had people over he was always "sick" in bed most of the time. If we went to see family he dictated the schedule to minimize contact with them as much as possible. And then there was the sulky, pouty, difficult, irritated attitude the whole time...
> 
> But I totally embraced all his friends and family because I knew they were important to him, and he never questioned that because his friends and family = GOOD, mine = SUCK.
> 
> *SO PLEASE TELL ME YOU"RE GETTING OUT OF THIS MARRIAGE ASAP. And you're not letting her talk you into staying/trying/whatever.* If not for yourself, do it for your son. He should not grow up in an environment like this where he can't relax and be himself and be loved and treasured for who he *is*, no matter how much you love your wife. She can find someone else to love her. She will be fine.
> 
> Take what you've learned from this relationship and find an and adult capable of being loved and loving you back. And take what you learned from your first marriage and be sure to discuss things of concern early on. Dang, your life could be SO much happier. (Even if you stay single for some time and just enjoy your children and friends.)


That is the exact behavior I get. The pouting, the displeasure, the crabbiness. Not outright saying I can't or she doesn't want me to, but everything else tells me, without a doubt. 

I had a conversation with my daughter last night (12) and she told me she wishes we would have moved last fall when I attempted to separate from my wife. I asked her if she'd be happier if it were just her, her brother and I and her answer was yes. So yes, I am getting out. It's just a matter of putting together an exit plan now.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

WorkingWife said:


> That is because her anger is not genuine anger at something you have done. It is a manipulation to get something from you -- a concession? Drama? Attention? who knows, but "anger" is the tool her subconscious knows to use. So when a little anger doesn't get her what she wants, she just digs in and doubles down.
> 
> When a person is genuinely angry at something, time and space helps them calm down and gain objectivity.
> 
> You say she hasn't been diagnosed bi-polar or anything like that. Are you familiar with Narcissistic personality disorder? If not, read up on it a bit. She may be a narcissist. If she is, the only thing you can do to solve it is leave and save yourself because a narcissist is basically impossible to have a good relationship with but they have no desire to change who they are because from their perspective there is no problem.


I've told her for a while now that I believe she uses her anger as a tool and a weapon to get her way and to make sure everybody is doing what she wants. She uses it as a control mechanism and I've recognized that for a while now. She will never cop to that, she will never say that that is truly what is happening and gets upset even at the mention of that.

I'm very familiar with NPD. My first wife was borderline narcissistic, but that's a whole 'nother thread lol.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

WorkingWife said:


> Take what you've learned from this relationship and find an and adult capable of being loved and loving you back. And take what you learned from your first marriage and be sure to discuss things of concern early on. Dang, your life could be SO much happier. (Even if you stay single for some time and just enjoy your children and friends.)


My plan is to stay single and enjoy my friends as much as I possibly can. That is a mistake the first time around and it will not be made again.


----------



## TAMAT

HIT,

One other thing bothering me, her kids are older than yours, at some point they may become an extension of their mother and start abusing your kids emotionally, possibly violently or sexually. Can your kids stay with your exW or parents while you exit?

GET OUT, there is no 5 year plan, or 10 or 20 with this woman unless you want to die from stress in 10 years.

Totalitarianism died out except for North Korea and your wife.


----------



## BluesPower

hubbyintrubby said:


> I'm sure it contributed to why the first marriage didn't go well, yes. Along with other problems. They were just not a good fit in many areas overall.
> 
> MC seemed like an exercise in futility at the time, and looking back, still feels that way. Very little was gained. My wife had a hard time seeing where she could be wrong, even after being faced with it point blank by a professional.
> 
> She tells me she believes she's gotten all the help she feels like she needs. I'm sure I could use a little help too. The one IC I saw that I actually liked and saw as a fit, she got upset about me seeing because he wasn't a Christian and she felt as if he was actively trying to get me out of the marriage because he saw smoke and fire.


Let's say that everything you have said is as true and unbiased are you could possibly tell us what is going on. 

I think it would follow that most of the advice, which is to admit it won't work, and move on is correct. 

I think what you said in this post is quite telling and to me, it basically tells you what you already know and why you need to end it. 

But when you have a counselor at whatever level, telling you that you are wrong, and you don't even entertain the idea that they may have a point, that kind of tells you where you are at. 

Not that a therapist can't be wrong, because they often are, but then to heap on the fact that she is a professed Christian, and she has these issues with abuse of her husband, and children in the house, not to mention the disrespect overall....

Brother she has issues, big huge gaping issues, that you will never ever be able to fix. 

It is time to get out of this marriage, it is bad for you...

And try to figure out how you got with a woman like this in the first place and don't ever do it again.


----------



## Openminded

hubbyintrubby said:


> Maybe I'm scared? I don't know. I've thought about it endlessly lately. I'm scared to put the kids through one more big life change. I guess maybe I should look at a change like that as a positive for them, and not a negative. Maybe that would help.


You've already at the very least seriously scared them with your fights. I don't see the benefit of staying because they'll have to go through another divorce. They'll probably be happy to see the last of her.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

TAMAT said:


> HIT,
> 
> One other thing bothering me, her kids are older than yours, at some point they may become an extension of their mother and start abusing your kids emotionally, possibly violently or sexually. Can your kids stay with your exW or parents while you exit?
> 
> GET OUT, there is no 5 year plan, or 10 or 20 with this woman unless you want to die from stress in 10 years.
> 
> Totalitarianism died out except for North Korea and your wife.


Oh no, I'm talking short term plan. Within the next couple of days while my kids are at their mother's house anyway, and her kids are at their father's house. I already have a place to go and stay for a bit.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Openminded said:


> You've already at the very least seriously scared them with your fights. I don't see the benefit of staying because they'll have to go through another divorce. They'll probably be happy to see the last of her.


Right. I am going to make sure they are *NEVER* in that position ever again.


----------



## Mr.Married

Sounds like she is crazy enough to make false claims against you. I would keep a recorder in your front pocket for your own legal safety.


----------



## wilson

hubbyintrubby said:


> Oh no, I'm talking short term plan. Within the next couple of days while my kids are at their mother's house anyway, and her kids are at their father's house. I already have a place to go and stay for a bit.


I'm sorry that it came to this, but I'm happy you're taking this step. 

Considering how explosive she can get, you need to protect yourself from her making crazy claims. Record all interactions with her(*). Get a Voice Activated Recorder (VAR) and keep it on you at all times. Get a phone recording app. Try to keep all communication through text or email. I would not be surprised if she falsely claims you hit her and tries to get a restraining order on you. I also would not be surprised if she tries to hit or throw something at you. It would probably be safest to have the initial conversation with her over the phone where you can record it and she can't get to you.

(*) Recording laws vary from state-to-state. Some states are "one party", which means you are allowed to secretly record conversations you are part of. Other states are "two party", which means that everyone recorded needs to know. If you are in a one party state, you can record her without her knowing. But if you're in a two party state, you'll have to tell her you're recording all interactions with her.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

So...update. I couldn't wait to get home to tell her. I know I'm a s***** person for doing this, but I told her over our IM system sitting here at work that I'm going to move out tonight. The kids aren't home and it'll be just me and her and I go there and grab some things to bring with me after work. She's begging me and begging me to change my mind but I am going to stand strong.


----------



## wilson

hubbyintrubby said:


> So...update. I couldn't wait to get home to tell her. I know I'm a s***** person for doing this, but I told her over our IM system sitting here at work that I'm going to move out tonight. The kids aren't home and it'll be just me and her and I go there and grab some things to bring with me after work. She's begging me and begging me to change my mind but I am going to stand strong.


Save the IM's some place safe. It would be better if she wasn't there when you got your stuff. It is certain there is going to be high emotions when she sees you. Get your stuff when she's at work or something to avoid the confrontation.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

wilson said:


> Save the IM's some place safe. It would be better if she wasn't there when you got your stuff. It is certain there is going to be high emotions when she sees you. Get your stuff when she's at work or something to avoid the confrontation.


She works from home. She will be there because she wants to talk about it, which means she wants to talk me out of leaving. The next time she will be out of the house for sure is Thursday.


----------



## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> That is the exact behavior I get. The pouting, the displeasure, the crabbiness. Not outright saying I can't or she doesn't want me to, but everything else tells me, without a doubt.
> 
> I had a conversation with my daughter last night (12) and she told me she wishes we would have moved last fall when I attempted to separate from my wife. I asked her if she'd be happier if it were just her, her brother and I and her answer was yes. So yes, I am getting out. It's just a matter of putting together an exit plan now.


Good for you. You and your children will be so much happier. Usually I want to see everyone's marriage work out if possible, but in this case I'm happy for you that you're getting out! I think you are making the right decision. Especially with your kids involved.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

WorkingWife said:


> Good for you. You and your children will be so much happier. Usually I want to see everyone's marriage work out if possible, but in this case I'm happy for you that you're getting out! I think you are making the right decision. Especially with your kids involved.


Thank you for your kids words @WorkingWife I really appreciate it. I know it's going to be hard, but at this point it can't be any harder than life as it is.


----------



## TAMAT

Don't allow her even to touch you.

BTW did she cheat on you as well, if not you are likely avoiding that in your future too.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

TAMAT said:


> Don't allow her even to touch you.
> 
> BTW did she cheat on you as well, if not you are likely avoiding that in your future too.


No contact whatsoever. I'm asking her to leave so I can get some things and she is refusing right now. I might not even go over there tonight if that is true only because of the explosive history.

No, did not cheat on me but history of cheating in her past, multiple times.


----------



## wilson

hubbyintrubby said:


> No contact whatsoever. I'm asking her to leave so I can get some things and she is refusing right now. I might not even go over there tonight if that is true only because of the explosive history.


You may be able to request a police escort in these kinds of situations. It might seem like overkill, but it would ensure that nothing would happen and would establish that you were worried about how she'd react in case she ever made false claims against you in the future.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

wilson said:


> You may be able to request a police escort in these kinds of situations. It might seem like overkill, but it would ensure that nothing would happen and would establish that you were worried about how she'd react in case she ever made false claims against you in the future.


It's absolutely an option and I'm not afraid to do that if it comes down to it.


----------



## Openminded

She's not going to make any of this easy so you absolutely need to be prepared for anything. Have a VAR on you when you're around her.


----------



## Deejo

Whats the situation with your kids and your ex? 50/50?

If you have even a middling, positive relationship with ex, just have the kids stay with her while you untie this knot. 

I'm operating under the presumption that WHAT you are going to do is no longer a point of discussion. It's just when and how.

What you describe is a toxic train-wreck by anyone's definition. It is unhealthy for you, and EXTRAORDINARILY damaging to your children. Get them out at the very least.


----------



## TAMAT

have to agree with whoever suggested a police escort, especially since you already called the police on her before and she has a record.

Given the way she treats you with contempt now and the past cheating, you were in for a world of torment when she relapses.


----------



## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> A big one is that I don't want to hurt her. Second is I'm scared of putting my kids through another big life change, like I said earlier. Third, I guess there is a fear of being a failure and that stigma that goes along with being twice divorced.


Just reading this now. We didn't have kids but those two other reasons are why it took me years to get out of my marriage. Hell, not wanting to hurt him is why I married him in the first place when I knew deep down I was never going to be happy. FINALLY, I asked myself - is my life supposed to be a sacrifice to someone else's happiness? I'm literally staying unhappily married to a man because I don't want HIM to be embarrassed by divorce? 

And I'm worried what will people think that this is my second divorce? I was talking to my main boyfriend from before I got married and I told him I was embarrassed to be divorced twice and he bust out laughing and said "I think there are more important things to be embarrassed by in life." And I realized -- it's true. I have friends, family and business associates with multiple divorces behind them and I don't think anything less of them. I care about them and I just want them to be happy.

What is the saying? Those who care don't matter, and those who matter don't care.


----------



## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> She's begging me and begging me to change my mind but I am going to stand strong.


Good for you. A couple tips on "standing strong" - don't give her concrete examples and reasons, because any detail you give is something she can grab hold of to try to spin to talk you out of it. Say things she can't argue with: I'm just not happy. I'm stressed all the time. This just doesn't feel right. My children are not themselves (even that might be too much detail) but just repeating "This isn't working for me." "I'm sorry but I'm just not happy." "I need time and space to think." If she comes back at you with "But blah blah blah" say "That isn't how I feel." or "That isn't what I want."

Good luck.

PS, given the circumstances I think the IM was fine. The only drawback is that it gives her time to think and plot of how to try to change your mind. But what's important is that you're doing it, not the exact communication medium.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Well folks, I’m out of the house. I went and grabbed some bags full of clothes, necessary items and left. She had a girlfriend over so I didn’t have to talk to her, which was good. After I left, I sent her a text message asking her to transfer half of the balances of our shared bank accounts to my account and she told me she will not being doing that. I’m not sure how that works...maybe somebody can fill me in on what I should do there. Otherwise, I’m out. I’m somewhere safe where I can lay my head for a bit.


----------



## OnTheFly

Legal representation immediately.

Also, it seems if you want her to do something, ask her to do the opposite. 

Stay strong!


----------



## hubbyintrubby

WorkingWife said:


> hubbyintrubby said:
> 
> 
> 
> She's begging me and begging me to change my mind but I am going to stand strong.
> 
> 
> 
> Good for you. A couple tips on "standing strong" - don't give her concrete examples and reasons, because any detail you give is something she can grab hold of to try to spin to talk you out of it. Say things she can't argue with: I'm just not happy. I'm stressed all the time. This just doesn't feel right. My children are not themselves (even that might be too much detail) but just repeating "This isn't working for me." "I'm sorry but I'm just not happy." "I need time and space to think." If she comes back at you with "But blah blah blah" say "That isn't how I feel." or "That isn't what I want."
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> PS, given the circumstances I think the IM was fine. The only drawback is that it gives her time to think and plot of how to try to change your mind. But what's important is that you're doing it, not the exact communication medium.
Click to expand...

She spent most of the day talking me into coming over and talking it all out. I kept giving her those canned type answers you’re talking about @WorkingWife and it seemed to go ok doing that.


----------



## wilson

hubbyintrubby said:


> After I left, I sent her a text message asking her to transfer half of the balances of our shared bank accounts to my account and she told me she will not being doing that.


I'm glad it all worked out without incident. I'm sure her girlfriend being there helped, as she didn't want to embarrass herself in front of her. But keep a VAR on you at all times since there's no telling what will happen in the future.

Is there a reason she has to move the money? If it's a shared account, I would expect that you could do the transfer yourself. She is not going to be cooperative for these kinds of requests, so don't even ask if you can do it yourself.

Keep in mind that debts are still shared, so make sure payments for house, cars, and whatever else are still being made. Even if you have to pay 100%, do it. Any imbalance in payments should be taken into consideration by the judge during the asset separation of the divorce.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

wilson said:


> hubbyintrubby said:
> 
> 
> 
> After I left, I sent her a text message asking her to transfer half of the balances of our shared bank accounts to my account and she told me she will not being doing that.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad it all worked out without incident. I'm sure her girlfriend being there helped, as she didn't want to embarrass herself in front of her. But keep a VAR on you at all times since there's no telling what will happen in the future.
> 
> Is there a reason she has to move the money? If it's a shared account, I would expect that you could do the transfer yourself. She is not going to be cooperative for these kinds of requests, so don't even ask if you can do it yourself.
> 
> Keep in mind that debts are still shared, so make sure payments for house, cars, and whatever else are still being made. Even if you have to pay 100%, do it. Any imbalance in payments should be taken into consideration by the judge during the asset separation of the divorce.
Click to expand...

She’s locked me out of the accounts. I have no access to any shared money as of right now. She says she is going to use the money to pay all necessary bills because she thinks I wouldn’t. I would, but she’s giving me zero choice in the matter. I’ve switched my direct deposit to have my checks deposited into my own account as of now. 

She’s locked me out of almost 10k worth of funds.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

wilson said:


> hubbyintrubby said:
> 
> 
> 
> After I left, I sent her a text message asking her to transfer half of the balances of our shared bank accounts to my account and she told me she will not being doing that.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad it all worked out without incident. I'm sure her girlfriend being there helped, as she didn't want to embarrass herself in front of her. But keep a VAR on you at all times since there's no telling what will happen in the future.
> 
> Is there a reason she has to move the money? If it's a shared account, I would expect that you could do the transfer yourself. She is not going to be cooperative for these kinds of requests, so don't even ask if you can do it yourself.
> 
> Keep in mind that debts are still shared, so make sure payments for house, cars, and whatever else are still being made. Even if you have to pay 100%, do it. Any imbalance in payments should be taken into consideration by the judge during the asset separation of the divorce.
Click to expand...

She’s locked me out of the accounts. I have no access to any shared money as of right now. She says she is going to use the money to pay all necessary bills because she thinks I wouldn’t. I would, but she’s giving me zero choice in the matter. I’ve switched my direct deposit to have my checks deposited into my own account as of now. 

She’s locked me out of almost 10k worth of funds.


----------



## LimaTango

hubbyintrubby said:


> Well folks, I’m out of the house. I went and grabbed some bags full of clothes, necessary items and left. She had a girlfriend over so I didn’t have to talk to her, which was good. After I left, I sent her a text message asking her to transfer half of the balances of our shared bank accounts to my account and she told me she will not being doing that. I’m not sure how that works...maybe somebody can fill me in on what I should do there. Otherwise, I’m out. I’m somewhere safe where I can lay my head for a bit.


If you're on the account.... just go to the bank and get a cashier's check for half the balance. 

Then take that check and deposit into your own account (one where only your name is on account). 

Of if your personal account is at the same bank.... just have them move 50% of the money of your joint account into your personal account.

I would do this asap. You don't need your wifes permission if it's a joint account.


----------



## LimaTango

You need to get to a divorce lawyer asap. They can help you get access to marital assets. 

This needs to be done right away.


----------



## wilson

hubbyintrubby said:


> She’s locked me out of the accounts. I have no access to any shared money as of right now. She says she is going to use the money to pay all necessary bills because she thinks I wouldn’t. I would, but she’s giving me zero choice in the matter. I’ve switched my direct deposit to have my checks deposited into my own account as of now.
> 
> She’s locked me out of almost 10k worth of funds.


Save those texts. That's great documentation to have for the judge. How did she lock you out of the accounts? Was it that she changed the online password or did she remove you from the account? You should contact the bank directly and see about getting your access back. But even if she takes it all, it should just be a temporary setback. The judge will take that $10k into account when splitting up the assets regardless of which account it ends up in.


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## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> Well folks, I’m out of the house. I went and grabbed some bags full of clothes, necessary items and left. She had a girlfriend over so I didn’t have to talk to her, which was good. After I left, I sent her a text message asking her to transfer half of the balances of our shared bank accounts to my account and she told me she will not being doing that. I’m not sure how that works...maybe somebody can fill me in on what I should do there. Otherwise, I’m out. I’m somewhere safe where I can lay my head for a bit.


GOOD JOB! Is your name on those shared accounts? You should be able to do the transfer or a withdrawal yourself. If not, I'd talk to an attorney ASAP. I'm sure they're marital property but if she grabs all the money, getting your half back won't be easy.


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## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> She’s locked me out of the accounts. I have no access to any shared money as of right now. She says she is going to use the money to pay all necessary bills because she thinks I wouldn’t. I would, but she’s giving me zero choice in the matter. I’ve switched my direct deposit to have my checks deposited into my own account as of now.
> 
> She’s locked me out of almost 10k worth of funds.


HOW has she locked you out -- if all she did was change a password, but your name is on the accounts too, contact the bank and have them reset the password. If they were her accounts to begin with and she added your name she can take it off, but if you opened joint accounts you can get the bank to let you back in, but like was said above - GET LEGAL ADVICE ASAP.

I'm really happy and excited for you for your future, despite this current nonsense -- and there will be a LOT of nonsense coming up but some day it will all be behind you. Even if it costs you $10K.


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## TAMAT

HIT,

If it only cost you 10K to get rid of this emotional waking nightmare what a bargain.

You will gain an extra 5 to 10 years of lifespan to spend with your kids and that is priceless.

I'm watching someone now shortening their life married to a horrible stress bomb woman.


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## Nucking Futs

LimaTango said:


> If you're on the account.... just go to the bank and get a cashier's check for half the balance.
> 
> Then take that check and deposit into your own account (one where only your name is on account).
> 
> *Of if your personal account is at the same bank.... just have them move 50% of the money of your joint account into your personal account.*
> 
> I would do this asap. You don't need your wifes permission if it's a joint account.


Don't open your new account at the same bank, sometimes they link it to the other accounts and she can get access.


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## Deejo

Stop interacting with her. At all.

She could not have had you physically removed from the accounts ... so go to the bank ... now.

I say this with all due respect, and understand we can certainly help and provide support ... but unless you seriously get your sh!t together about how YOU want this to move forward, you are about to get steamrolled. She believes shes smarter, more cunning, and vindictive, than you are. Be prepared to prove her wrong.


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## hubbyintrubby

The account is sadly an account she opened in her name and gave me shared access to. The bank we bank at does not do joint accounts, they just have members and you can share access to an account with another person. She is the “member” on the accounts in question and she removed my access.


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## jlg07

hubbyintrubby said:


> The account is sadly an account she opened in her name and gave me shared access to. The bank we bank at does not do joint accounts, they just have members and you can share access to an account with another person. She is the “member” on the accounts in question and she removed my access.


Then you need to get to a lawyer TODAY and get this the first thing they work on.
1/2 of that is YOUR money, and she is just being vindictive.
Secure any other financial items/documents etc. you will need so that she can't pull the same crap with that stuff.

Make sure your other stuff (healthcare, life insurance, etc.) also get updated appropriately.


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## Deejo

hubbyintrubby said:


> The account is sadly an account she opened in her name and gave me shared access to. The bank we bank at does not do joint accounts, they just have members and you can share access to an account with another person. She is the “member” on the accounts in question and she removed my access.


Given that you all but assured she would lock you out ... by 'requesting' that she transfer half of the money to ... where? Politely cut you a bank check? What exactly did you expect her to do?


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## WonkyNinja

hubbyintrubby said:


> That might be a part of the problem, but I don't want to lay anything completely on that.
> 
> A huge problem is that the more often we started fighting, the more severe we started fighting, I started finding myself more angry than I've ever been. Saying things I wouldn't say to my worst enemy in the face of receiving the same treatment. Basically in a way, I found me lowering myself to a level that I've never been and I feel extremely guilty that I let myself get to that point.
> 
> It's gotten to the point where *police have been called* because I had felt we had lost control of the situation. I try to leave to cool off, and she has *blocked the car in and caused damage to the vehicle to keep me from leaving*. Things have been thrown, damage to the house has been caused, by both of us. She continues to shame me for feeling like the police needed to be called but I stand by the decision to do so. I've never dealt with anything like this in my life.


That strikes me as a situation you need to get you and your children away from as soon as possible. If I were your ex and heard about that level of conflict I'd be going for full custody with no visitation to your house in a millisecond.

You are setting a dreadful example for your children. They do look up to you and they do look to you for how to behave and treat people whether they'll admit it or not.


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## WorkingWife

hubbyintrubby said:


> The account is sadly an account she opened in her name and gave me shared access to. The bank we bank at does not do joint accounts, they just have members and you can share access to an account with another person. She is the “member” on the accounts in question and she removed my access.


What @jlg07 said. Get to an attorney right away. I believe the courts can put a restraining order on her spending that money. If she breaks it, I don't know what happens, but an attorney can let you know exactly what your rights and odds are. In hindsight, you probably should have gotten your $5K before telling her you were moving out, but I still applaud your determination to take action once you made the decision. If it costs you $5K to get out of this toxic relationship, so be it.


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## TAMAT

HIT,

You wrote, *The account is sadly an account she opened in her name and gave me shared access to.*

So everything is to her advantage and control, can you image how destroyed you would be if you allowed this to continue?

Does she refer to the house you bought together as "her house"?


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## WorkingWife

@hubbyintrubby how are things going?!


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## hubbyintrubby

WorkingWife said:


> @hubbyintrubby how are things going?!


It's kind of tough to talk about. I'm still out of the house. I've stopped by home a couple of times to have some talks that don't really go anywhere. She wants to change, she wants us to grow together and she wants me to come home. I had a couple of really awesome days with my 2 kids, mostly because we did some fun things and I was off work. Wife wanted to know if I wanted to come back home for the couple of days I had the kids and she'd find another place to be and I said no. I had a tough talk with my daughter and she told me straight up that she does not like my wife because she talks to people rudely and because she thinks that my wife has changed me into someone I wasn't before. She also told me she does not want to be at the house anymore. My children are my #1 and always will be, so her opinion is very important to me.


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## MattMatt

@hubbyintrubby What's your lawyer's take on this?


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## MattMatt

hubbyintrubby said:


> The account is sadly an account she opened in her name and gave me shared access to. The bank we bank at does not do joint accounts, they just have members and you can share access to an account with another person. She is the “member” on the accounts in question and she removed my access.


Actually, the law might not see it her way. If your pay was also going in to it, then the court might declare it as a joint account, no matter what she might want to believe.


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## aine

hubbyintrubby said:


> I rarely know when she's happy or content. I ALWAYS know when she is angry, frustrated, upset, *fill in negative feeling here*. That is exhausting by itself. I have no problem listening and apologizing when I'm wrong or when I'm the reason for the negative feelings, but when they are almost constant, it makes me want to just stop.


What attracted you to this woman in the first place? Your ex wife had Borderline Narcissistic Personality? That tells you something about the type of people you are attracted to, need to work on that issue with a therapist to avoid issues in the future.

How did you guys get together, were you both out of your prior marriages/divorced, etc?

Put your kids first (every time) it is good you are leaving her. Now get it together, get a lawyer, get alternative accommodation for your kids, sort out the finances and move on.
From what you are saying there may be signs of BPD if she is constantly not happy and harassing you?
How is her relationship with her own kids?

Blending families is not easy at all but if you are she are not getting on it will make it more difficult esp with teenage kids. Sounds like you guys rushed into this arrangement.


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## hubbyintrubby

MattMatt said:


> Actually, the law might not see it her way. If your pay was also going in to it, then the court might declare it as a joint account, no matter what she might want to believe.


Yes, my pay and her pay all went into the same account. I have not spoken to a lawyer yet.


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## hubbyintrubby

aine said:


> What attracted you to this woman in the first place? Your ex wife had Borderline Narcissistic Personality? That tells you something about the type of people you are attracted to, need to work on that issue with a therapist to avoid issues in the future.
> 
> How did you guys get together, were you both out of your prior marriages/divorced, etc?
> 
> Put your kids first (every time) it is good you are leaving her. Now get it together, get a lawyer, get alternative accommodation for your kids, sort out the finances and move on.
> From what you are saying there may be signs of BPD if she is constantly not happy and harassing you?
> How is her relationship with her own kids?
> 
> Blending families is not easy at all but if you are she are not getting on it will make it more difficult esp with teenage kids. Sounds like you guys rushed into this arrangement.


We had a lot in common when we first met, including our divorces from our first spouses. I guess you could say we kind of bonded over the trauma of the loss of those relationships in a way, among many other things. I've touched on the narcissism that I seem to be attracted to in therapy sessions in the past. 

I see so many varying opinions on whether or not you should "protect" your children in situations such as these. At what point do you do so? At what point is normal conflict and not? Should they see some amount of conflict AND see you repair said conflict? 

I've had a suspicion about the BPD thing for a while, some things fit and something do not. Everything I've read says that even if you suspect someone is BPD, never bring that up to them directly.

Her relationship with her children is mostly good. She's always been a yeller with them, so they expect that from her when she does that. It has gotten better since I've known her, but her anger is such a hot button issue that it's scary. I've told her that if she speaks to my children like she speaks to her own sometimes, it's an immediate deal breaker and I'm gone fast than you can blink, and she never has. It's just that my wife seems to have no filter at times. When she thinks of something, it comes pouring out when she's angry and cannot stop herself.

I've felt for a while that we rushed many things about our relationship, yes. I completely agree with you there.


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## Prodigal

hubbyintrubby said:


> I see so many varying opinions on whether or not you should "protect" your children in situations such as these. At what point do you do so? At what point is normal conflict and not? Should they see some amount of conflict AND see you repair said conflict?


My mother was your wife. Please protect your children and start doing so now by getting an attorney. To this day - about a million years later - there are still things that can trigger me regarding the damage my mother doled out. Granted, the triggers aren't as strong now, but certain things can still take me back. I went through YEARS of therapy to heal from the damage.

Your conflict with your wife is not normal. You know it. Your children know it. Worse yet, your children are being damaged by this.

Do the right thing. Your children deserve nothing less.


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