# Needy female friend- is this emotional infidelity?



## Astonefeather

My husband and I dated for 5 years and have been married for 2. I trust him not to cheat on me sexually, but I wonder about his attachment to his friend.

My husband and this woman have been friends for 18 years. His closeness with her has made me uncomfortable from the start. Back when we were dating, he would have her over for "movie night" and they would watch movies in his closed bedroom all night long. I questioned their relationship back then, but he was never secretive about it and other friends would corroborate that there was nothing between them physically.

She's kind of a "guy's girl" - primarily has male friends, loves to go out drinking, burps, farts, etc in public without shame. She's smart, funny, and outgoing. I tried to maintain a friendship with her because she is important to my husband. After my first issues were resolved, I got over my concerns and accepted her as just another of my husband's many friends.

HOWEVER, since around the time my husband and I got married (2 years ago), she has been extremely needy and demanding of his time. We moved to a neighboring state, but live about 4 hours from her so visits aren't impossible. She has a common law husband that she been with for years, she has a large family and many friends local to her yet she calls my husband at all hours of the night and day for his help dealing with her problems.

He has been pretty good about more or less avoiding her calls, emails, texts, facebook messages, etc because he doesn't seem to like being smothered by her. But she keeps upping the stakes and finding ways to make him feel compelled to go see her. She's always relied on him to be her hero and I never had any jealousy or resentment, just a mild irritation that she doesn't find someone else to hold her hand through life's many hiccups. 

I am currently seven months pregnant with our first child. I am no longer comfortable with my husband leaving me for days at a time to help his friend deal with her every day life. I haven't once said "you can't see her" or "it's her or me" or anything along those lines. But when she called him crying and demanding he go up there right away and he agreed to go up there. Since her reasons for needing him are becoming increasingly far-fetched (she think she has a brain tumor and her house was robbed but there is no police report, etc), I asked that my husband stop staying with her. Her "lover" (common law husband) is out of town and it would be the two of them alone all weekend. I don't think there is a sexual component in all of this, I think she is freaking out that her back up man and best male friend is now happily married and starting a family. But I also don't think it's fair that he stays with her and tends to her all night and day while he's in town. He used to stay with family, now he stays with this friend.

The level of "crazy" she has reached is really upsetting to me. She has started messaging me to get him to respond to her faster. "Tell him he HAS TO CALL ME, it's an emergency" or "I know your there, tell him to call me!" etc. I addressed it with my husband and expressed that I trust them not to be sexually intimate, but that he needs to talk to her about this. He agrees that once the baby is here she can't be doing this, but he also insists that staying with her is no big deal because her house is really comfortable and closer to town than his other housing options when he goes up there.

What it has come down to is the fact that he promised not to stay in her house this weekend when he goes up there again. He promised to stay with his mother who is very much looking forward to seeing him. But then I heard him on the phone telling his friend to "get the guest room ready for him" and making plans. I confronted him and he tried to make me feel silly for worrying. At this point, is the fact that he is choosing his own laziness (wanting a nicer room to bunk in) and her needs for his attentions over the simple request of his concerned wife grounds for claiming emotional infidelity?

I don't know what this will do to our relationship if he lies to me and stays with her anyway. I have told him so. I don't know what else to do. I feel like he gets a huge ego boost being the man she calls on despite her having many other options that are much closer. He's always liked being the hero and he always will. But with this particular friend, I am extremely uncomfortable. It's creating a lot of negative tension and he won't make any effort to do anything about it. Right down to telling me what I want to hear and planning to do what he wants anyway. To me, that feels like cheating.


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## *LittleDeer*

Oh my goodness. 

I cannot believe that he even tries to justify this friendship. If it was a male friend it would be beyond inappropriate, so just because she has a vagina you are supposed to turn a blind eye to his bad decisions and putting a friend above your marriage. 

It is a total cop out to say if you have concerns that you would be insecure or jealous. And they would be normal emotions to have any way.

Your husband leaves you, his pregnant wife, for days at a time to stay with a pushy, bossy rude 'friend' who uses him when her own spouse is gone for comfort etc.


Either you come first or she does.

Also no man or woman bends over back wards for someone they have no extreme emotional ties to or no sexual attraction. it's either one or the other or both. Those are supposed to be reserved for you now, not her.

BTW, why aren't you spending the weekend there with him?

Tell him his actions are making you lose respect for him as a man. Areal man has good boundaries with friends and puts his family first, and he doesn't have to be pressured into it, he knows where he stands and he takes his priorities seriously.


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## NextTimeAround

**** Since her reasons for needing him are becoming increasingly far-fetched (she think she has a brain tumor and her house was robbed but there is no police report, etc), I asked that my husband stop staying with her. Her "lover" (common law husband) is out of town and it would be the two of them alone all weekend.****

something I learned from my collapsed marriage.......do not underestimate a man's need to take care of the vulnerable. 

Ask him what you should do in an emergency when he's away. And simply tell him that you are not happy when he leaves you like that.

If that doesn't work, hmmmm, but one thing is certain, I would do whatever I could to get this woman out of YOUR (plural) life.


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## survivorwife

For your H to include this particular friend among his other friends, to have dinner with this friend (with other friends) or a simple phone call is not cheating.

HOWEVER, when she calls and he jumps, and he stays at her home alone, and becomes her "knight in shining armor" (at her beck and call) then yes, he most certainly is crossing the line since he is now married to you. There are boundaries that she appears to demand that he cross, and his "knight in shining armor" persona is willingly responding to this. This relationship is potentially dangerous as there appears to be "three in this marriage".

I often wonder (and forgive me for relating your situation to something so public) if the current Duchess of Cornwall, the notorious Camilla, didn't pull such "needy" stunts in order to maintain her relationship with Prince Charles while he was married to Diana. Camilla was married as well (and your OW is in a relationship). Camilla had a relationship with Charles before he married Diana (same as your OW). The "Couple" Charles/Camilla maintained that relationship throughout his marriage to Diana, and we see where that got them.

The point of the above reference is this. The OW is being manipulative and cunning; maintaining what she deems "her territory" (aka your H) in spite of your marriage to him. And, by your H's response, he appears to be accepting the status quo. While your "knight in shining armor" might be innocent of any intention to be involved with this OW, She on the other hand has other options (as you noted) and using YOUR H for domestic duties is a blatant way of keeping him at her beck and call. Using YOU to make sure HE calls HER is also overstepping the line as well. You and your H are a married couple now and the rules have changed.

You should absolutely insist that your H stay at his family's home, not her home. You should further insist that he not attend to her alone, but bring a family member or friend. If he absolutely must help the poor dear , either you should accompany him or someone else should. Make it difficult for them to be together alone. 

Please keep us updated here as I understand your concerns.


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## Astonefeather

I've mentioned to him as well that the gender has little to do with it. I would be just as upset and uncomfortable if it was a male friend calling him at all hours and demanding frequent visits.

My husband doesn't see this as anything other than spending time with a friend. He intends to see other friends while he is away and often does when he goes up there. I really do trust him not to cheat, but at the same time it feels like he already is. I sort of figured that wife (pregnant wife, no less) trumped childhood friend when it came to this sort of thing, but apparently we have equal footing. 

I'm sure if I cried and asked him to stay, he would. But I don't want to be that person. Plus he would resent me for it I'm sure.

My biggest fear is that now that I have laid down the law regarding him staying under the same roof as her, that he will do it anyway. I'm so hormonal and emotional right now that it feels like it will be the end of my ability to trust him if he can't do this one thing for me. It's been a problem in our marriage that he does what he wants to do no matter what my thoughts are on the matter. But this is in a different category than my usual complaints.

I work from home and can only leave for a day at a time. I plan to go up for a night this weekend, but he will be up there Thursday through Sunday.


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## NextTimeAround

I suppose if you wanted to get really aggressive, you could, in the name of being helpful, call around to other people that you and she know in common, asking if they can help her because it's really not feasible for you and your husband to do so.

It depends on how much your husband is determined to "choose" his friends as to how he will react to that. But one thing is certain, that situation can't continue as is. And I feel certain that she will escalate it further.


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## Astonefeather

Is this something that is considered infidelity? Or does it get a different label?

All I know is that if he promises not to stay with her and does so anyway, I will never trust him again. And that's a pretty big problem. Knowing my husband he will do what he wants to do and then say "I didn't feel well and I needed to stay in town" or something to excuse the fact that he blatantly disregarded my feelings on the matter.

Maybe if I address it with her? But I worry that will make it just a big dramatic mess of stupidity.


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## NextTimeAround

Astonefeather said:


> Is this something that is considered infidelity? Or does it get a different label?
> 
> All I know is that if he promises not to stay with her and does so anyway, I will never trust him again. And that's a pretty big problem. Knowing my husband he will do what he wants to do and then say "I didn't feel well and I needed to stay in town" or something to excuse the fact that he blatantly disregarded my feelings on the matter.
> 
> *Maybe if I address it with her? But I worry that will make it just a big dramatic mess of stupidity*.


I have tried open honest discussion in the past and it has only backfired on me. These people don't play fair. You disclose how you feel; you try to get them to make the same disclosure; you try to negotiate; gain agreement and move forward.

It just doesn't work. there are times when the one who is looking to negotiate is viewed as the weaker part. and as the say in the Miranda rights: anything you say can and will be used against you in the (social) court of law.

Let's strategise here
1. You are married to him. so this is not a fly by night relationship.
2. You are carrying his baby. One would hope that even the grandparents and other in laws will be interested in helping to create a stable home life.

Tell your husband you do not like him taking time off to help this woman and that you will ask around to see if other people in the neighbour hood can help. and then do just that.


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## Astonefeather

Okay, I will give that a whirl!


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## Humble Pie

You might have mentioned it, but why is your husband going back to this "town" where both his mother and friend live? Business? Pleasure? Just for this friend?

As you stated, they are very close, I assume like brother and sister since there is no physical interaction between them and they have know eachother for 18 yrs. so I am sure he is just looking out for her. However, he can do that at his own home, on the telephone. 

You are now pregnant, he definately should not be attending this woman's every need, that is a huge problem. He needs to address this with her immidately. I think until he does the friend will continue to pursue his comfort. 

Ask him to talk with her about this and see if that will change. If not maybe she needs a wake-up call from you. Sometimes woman are so distracted with themselves, she might not be thinking about your needs or concerns.


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## survivorwife

Astonefeather said:


> Is this something that is considered infidelity? Or does it get a different label?
> 
> All I know is that if he promises not to stay with her and does so anyway, I will never trust him again. And that's a pretty big problem. Knowing my husband he will do what he wants to do and then say "I didn't feel well and I needed to stay in town" or something to excuse the fact that he blatantly disregarded my feelings on the matter.
> 
> Maybe if I address it with her? But I worry that will make it just a big dramatic mess of stupidity.


No, I would not address it with her. That gives her power and control in your marriage, which I suspect is what she wants. What needs to happen is that you and your H make such decisions in your household without including her as a party to those decisions. Once you actively include her in "family" discussions, I suspect she will take advantage of this new position and find new means of controlling BOTH you and your H.


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## warlock07

Ask him if he would be ok if you spent as much time with a guy friend of yours and be intimate with him as much she is with him? Not sure about the infidelity, depends on what they speak but you definitely should be wary. The signs don't look good.


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## NextTimeAround

warlock07 said:


> Ask him if he would be ok if you spent as much time with a guy friend of yours and be intimate with him as much she is with him? Not sure about the infidelity, depends on what they speak but you definitely should be wary. The signs don't look good.


I understand where you're coming from. but i tried this tact when I was married, it always came across as spiteful. And well, since I'm divorced, this line of thinking didn't really work.

I think it's better to follow the spouse's line of thinking. If, like in this case, the husband believe that she really does need help, then the wife could do everyone a favour by finding people closer to her who can help her.


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## Cosmos

Your husband is investing way too much time in this woman and her problems, and it's unreasonable of him to expect you to be happy about him going to stay with her. 

Frankly, this sort of friendship is too close to be allowed to continue when either one of the parties (or in this case, both) enters into a committed relationship.

She's overstepping the boundaries of, even, a same sex friendship, and your husband needs to put on the brakes.


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## golfergirl

I would lay it on the line exactly what he will do if he stays with her. He will shatter your trust and prove she comes first over you. Before he goes, I would address strongly the outcome should he lie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## moxy

She's trying to up the ante and be a girlfriend. This is definitely an emotional affair.

You should tell him to choose the marriage or his wannabe girlfriend.

People like this make me want to vomit. Your husband is too busy playing knight to the damsel in distress to see where his priorities should be.

This is definitely worth leaving over, if he can't get his loyalties properly aligned because it will only worsen.


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## NextTimeAround

moxy said:


> She's trying to up the ante and be a girlfriend. This is definitely an emotional affair.
> 
> You should tell him to choose the marriage or his wannabe girlfriend.
> 
> People like this make me want to vomit.* Your husband is too busy playing knight to the damsel in distress to see where his priorities should be.*
> 
> This is definitely worth leaving over, if he can't get his loyalties properly aligned because it will only worsen.


this s why I think quite often that men need someone to save. Women who come across as too independent and self-sufficient have these problems.


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## Maricha75

Someone asked, but I didn't see a reply... why are YOU not going with him? Why can't you BOTH go, spend time with his mom, and he can help this woman with whatever fabricated emergency she has? He should NOT be leaving you alone at 7 months pregnant... not unless it is something ONLY HE CAN ADDRESS! You and I both know there are people in that town who could just as easily help her in these 'crises'. And waiting until the baby is born/ Oh HELL NO! Put your foot down NOW! There is NO reason a man should go running off to help some woman, leaving his PREGNANT wife at home, alone. Bad enough when it is before pregnancy... but during? If he doesn't stop now, it WILL continue after the baby is born. Bottom line, he needs to stop this behavior now, not later! Incidentally, if my husband tried this BS during my pregnancies, he WOULD have been told "the friend or me... and choose wisely"


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## Thorburn

First of all I understand where you are coming from, but, you allowed a friendship to continue that should have ended years ago. It is not a good relationship, you know that, but you allowed it and actually by your actions promoted it. Now you are seeing the light. As an outsider this relationship should have ended when you started dating.


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## badbane

I agree with Maricha at this point this whole situation is going to lead to you resenting him. Plus I don't believe a word this girl is saying. It sounds like she and he have and emotional attachment. These usually lead to something more. Stop this now before something irreparable happens. You are not on equal footing and show him you mean business. This woman is obviously not wanting to just be friends. I pretty much talk to my childhood best friend once a month. Why? because we have lives separate from each other. This guy is emotionally attached otherwise it would be easy as hell to tell a friend to just back off. Friends respect boundaries.


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## warlock07

One way woman bond with a man is to let him become her savior. This almost happens on a sub conscious level.


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## Vanguard

You need to get very firm. Not *****y but firm. We men are extremely susceptible to girls in distress, and the things she's whispering to him are stroking his ego. 
He definitely needs to break contact with this woman. Even if his heart is not being turned, she is definitely in love with him. You need to fight.


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## Wanting1

Sometimes, you have to pull out the big gun and give an ultimatum. Try everything else first, but if he doesn't completely commit to you and what is going to be best for your little family, give him the ultimatum to go and be with her. This can be the most powerful move in your arsenal. It can also be the weakest (if you are bluffing). So be prepared to follow through. Never bluff when giving an ultimatum.

When DH and I were at about year 2.5, I had to do this. When we got married, rather than mellowing out on the partying lifestyle, DH ramped it up. 

It was a bone of contention with us from pretty much the first month of our marriage. It got worse and worse, and then just at the point that I was ready to walk away, he straightened out on his own, and we had smooth sailing for about a year. 

Then, when our first child was about 4 months old, the party bug hit him again. He was going out, promising to be back by a certain, reasonable time, but not showing up until 4 am, staggering drunk, passing out. He felt justified for his behavior because he had been "good" for so long. We had arguments and fights about it. I nagged. Nothing worked. 

One night, he stumbled in. He had driven home drunk, he passed out for a while in the bathtub. I was disgusted and sick and tired of it. So, I got my suitcase out and began to pack. It was 3 am. He wandered out and I sat him down. Told him that I would no longer live like this. That I had planned on leaving him before, but he had been able to straighten himself out before I actually walked out the door. Now, we had a kid, and I would not raise my child in that environment. So, that was it. No nagging, fighting, or crying. I just told him how it was. He sobered up real quick. We had a long discussion about his behaviors and what was acceptable and unacceptable. He seemed to get it. I basically told him that there were no more second chances. The behavior changed or me and the kid were gone. Period. 

Moral of the story: I laid it all on the line, ready to walk away. No bluff. We are still together. 14 years now. And I have never had to issue another ultimatum. I haven't even had to hint at it. He knows now, if I am dead serious about a problem, my solution will be dead serious too. 

Caveat: At about year 4, he did have one little backslide. A loophole (if you will) that I tied up real quick and not a single problem since then.


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## Unsure in Seattle

Yep, you really have to put your foot down. Tell him that he's disrespecting you and your marriage. He needs to be helping you now, not some "friend."

Unbelievable. That "friend" is a real piece of work. Even if he's oblivious to it, it's pretty clear that she's trying to plant seeds.


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## vi_bride04

moxy said:


> This is definitely worth leaving over, if he can't get his loyalties properly aligned because it will only worsen.


....even if this issue with the friend is resolved if he can't get to the root of the problem of where his loyalties should lie this issue will come up again later on in the relationship.


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## sinnister

Even if he truly looks at this girl as a "friend", just remember that guys almost always visualize sex with the opposite gender. It's a mess that he refuses to clean up. Tell him to clean his mess or no "supper" (you).


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## EverRain

Doesn't matter if they are childhood friends, this is inappropriate and is filling emotional needs on both sides that should be filled by the others SO.

I understand that you don't want to be seen as a controlling/needy person, But what about YOUR NEEDS!! You matter and need to come first, soon it won't be just your needs that he is ignoring it will be your CHILD'S NEEDS as well.

I would suggest communicating this to him sooner rather than later.


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## Sara8

Astonefeather said:


> Is this something that is considered infidelity? Or does it get a different label?
> 
> All I know is that if he promises not to stay with her and does so anyway, I will never trust him again. And that's a pretty big problem. Knowing my husband he will do what he wants to do and then say "I didn't feel well and I needed to stay in town" or something to excuse the fact that he blatantly disregarded my feelings on the matter.
> 
> Maybe if I address it with her? But I worry that will make it just a big dramatic mess of stupidity.


Yes. This is infidelity. Anything that takes away from him spending quality time with you is infidelity. 

This is an emotional affair.

It also sounds like this woman has some type of personality disorder due to her lack of boundaries and neediness. 

She fits the borderline personality disorder description. Google it. She can be dangerous for sure because they often use sex to manipulate others.


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## Sporto

Why would you even alow this in the first place? If he was watching moving in a bedroom with the door closed all night with another women!!!! I don't care if it is not physical it is still cheating. It is emotional cheating!! He and she are getting a emotional need meet by someone other then their mate. That is cheating PERIOD!!! You let this go on for too long and now to make a stand is going to be difficult but you/he has to end it other wise it will be a source of discontent throughout your marriage. FYI you can bet they both have thought of each other in a sexual nature no matter how much they deny it.


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## Cara

I dont evev need to read your whole post. 

He now has a child and wife. 4-hr away "friend" goes buh-bye. End of discussion. A man who can be trusted will be sad but see this it the best course.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Astonefeather

My husband and I had a long discussion about the matter on a trip home to see my family for my birthday. 3 hours in the car each way allowed for a lot of talk time. He defended his friend and his fidelity. I explained many times over that I was never truly concerned about them having sex, but the fact that he was defending her like she had equal status was the problem in itself. 

At one point he pulled off the road and called his friend. I was horrified and asked him not to make this is a discussion with her. It's our marriage, she doesn't get a say in it. He did it anyway while I just sat there and cried. He told her that I wasn't allowing him to see her anymore because I thought they were having a sexual affair- which is not the case at all! Then he handed me the phone which I started not to take, but then figured "what the hell" and explained to her my issues in a general way.

I said that I respect their 18 years of friendship, that I am not concerned about any sexual component to their relationship, but that I cannot accept that she reaches out to him for her every emotional need. That I cannot allow my husband to spend weekends alone with her regardless of how many other friends they see while he's up there. She cannot call EVERY DAY and she needed to find another support base. She did the whole "I understand" thing and then proceeded to give me marital advice!!!! I told her I was not going to have this conversation with her and hung up. 

I tried a different approach with my husband the next day on our return trip home. I calmly gave examples of what he does for me as my husband- birthday trips, attending funerals, attending weddings, holding me when I'm upset, etc. Then I explained that she calls him for the EXACT same things despite the fact that she has her own husband. Because that's the issue. He seemed to understand it when he realized that she does ask him to attend funerals, weddings, etc with her. He said he wouldn't stay with her and that he was sorry. 

I have now told them both as honestly as I am able that my husband isn't for sharing. He is going to be a father in September and the situation as it stands is unacceptable. 

At one point I said "her or me" or something to that effect. I made it clear that I consider this an emotional affair and I will not be with someone who can't respect my feelings on this. Rational or not, the fact that he won't just walk away speaks volumes. 

I did an immature thing and I snooped. For the first time in 7 years I looked through his cell phone.

He messaged her after we got home- after we had that horrible three way conversation on the side of the road the previous day and said "worst pregnancy tolerance ever"
She replied: " I'm afraid 2 talk 2 u. after that... that was upsetting. you're not coming r u 2"

He said: "No, not this weekend, unlikely but we'll see. I need to smooth things over big time. You are welcome and wanted to come down. I'll probably try and make it up next weekend instead since this weekend is"

She said: "Okay well that will be good u will get to see everyone. I'm out of town. I don't feel comfortable coming down at all anymore. I feel bad I made her so upset"


He has also spoken to her several times since we got home over the phone, but never when I was around apparently. True to his word he has been wonderful to me lately. When he mentioned plans to go home to see friends, I offered to accompany him. The "other woman" is apparently going to be out of town, but I still want to make an effort to see his friends and visit with his mother. He's not sure he wants me to go because I'm a "party pooper" which is exceptionally hurtful, but I guess true. I don't like to stay out until 2 am watching him party with his friends from high school, but I would do the best I can at 7 months pregnant to stay awake with him. I figured I would just go back to his mother's house while he was out late being social. But I've been emotional lately and he doesn't want me to ruin his good time it seems. 

And to be completely honest, I'm not 100% convinced that his friend won't magically be in town and he won't accidentally forget his word and stay with her. Yes, her home is more comfortable. Yes, her home is closer to town. Yes, it would be the end of my ability to trust him again if he disregards my feelings and stays with her. It would quite possibility be the end of our marriage. I will not tolerate infidelity (even if he only considers sex cheating) and I will not tolerate abuse. This, in many ways, is both.

I've told him as much. It's all I can do. I thought I might message her before he leaves this weekend (or whenever he goes up there next) and say "Just as you do not feel comfortable in my home, I do not feel comfortable with my husband in yours. Please respect that" and I will tell him the same. His inability to just simply respect my feelings regardless of his personal take on things has been problem for years. But this is one where he'll have "let me have my way" or this marriage can't last.


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## Maricha75

Astonefeather said:


> My husband and I had a long discussion about the matter on a trip home to see my family for my birthday. 3 hours in the car each way allowed for a lot of talk time. He defended his friend and his fidelity. I explained many times over that I was never truly concerned about them having sex, but the fact that he was defending her like she had equal status was the problem in itself.
> 
> At one point he pulled off the road and called his friend. I was horrified and asked him not to make this is a discussion with her. It's our marriage, she doesn't get a say in it. He did it anyway while I just sat there and cried. He told her that I wasn't allowing him to see her anymore because I thought they were having a sexual affair- which is not the case at all! Then he handed me the phone which I started not to take, but then figured "what the hell" and explained to her my issues in a general way.
> 
> I said that I respect their 18 years of friendship, that I am not concerned about any sexual component to their relationship, but that I cannot accept that she reaches out to him for her every emotional need. That I cannot allow my husband to spend weekends alone with her regardless of how many other friends they see while he's up there. She cannot call EVERY DAY and she needed to find another support base. She did the whole "I understand" thing and then proceeded to give me marital advice!!!! I told her I was not going to have this conversation with her and hung up.
> 
> I tried a different approach with my husband the next day on our return trip home. I calmly gave examples of what he does for me as my husband- birthday trips, attending funerals, attending weddings, holding me when I'm upset, etc. Then I explained that she calls him for the EXACT same things despite the fact that she has her own husband. Because that's the issue. He seemed to understand it when he realized that she does ask him to attend funerals, weddings, etc with her. He said he wouldn't stay with her and that he was sorry.
> 
> I have now told them both as honestly as I am able that my husband isn't for sharing. He is going to be a father in September and the situation as it stands is unacceptable.
> 
> At one point I said "her or me" or something to that effect. I made it clear that I consider this an emotional affair and I will not be with someone who can't respect my feelings on this. Rational or not, the fact that he won't just walk away speaks volumes.
> 
> I did an immature thing and I snooped. For the first time in 7 years I looked through his cell phone.
> 
> *He messaged her after we got home- after we had that horrible three way conversation on the side of the road the previous day and said "worst pregnancy tolerance ever"
> She replied: " I'm afraid 2 talk 2 u. after that... that was upsetting. you're not coming r u 2"
> 
> He said: "No, not this weekend, unlikely but we'll see. I need to smooth things over big time. You are welcome and wanted to come down. I'll probably try and make it up next weekend instead since this weekend is"
> 
> She said: "Okay well that will be good u will get to see everyone. I'm out of town. I don't feel comfortable coming down at all anymore. I feel bad I made her so upset"*
> 
> 
> He has also spoken to her several times since we got home over the phone, but never when I was around apparently. True to his word he has been wonderful to me lately. When he mentioned plans to go home to see friends, I offered to accompany him. The "other woman" is apparently going to be out of town, but I still want to make an effort to see his friends and visit with his mother. He's not sure he wants me to go because I'm a "party pooper" which is exceptionally hurtful, but I guess true. I don't like to stay out until 2 am watching him party with his friends from high school, but I would do the best I can at 7 months pregnant to stay awake with him. I figured I would just go back to his mother's house while he was out late being social. But I've been emotional lately and he doesn't want me to ruin his good time it seems.
> 
> And to be completely honest, I'm not 100% convinced that his friend won't magically be in town and he won't accidentally forget his word and stay with her. Yes, her home is more comfortable. Yes, her home is closer to town. Yes, it would be the end of my ability to trust him again if he disregards my feelings and stays with her. It would quite possibility be the end of our marriage. I will not tolerate infidelity (even if he only considers sex cheating) and I will not tolerate abuse. This, in many ways, is both.
> 
> I've told him as much. It's all I can do. I thought I might message her before he leaves this weekend (or whenever he goes up there next) and say "Just as you do not feel comfortable in my home, I do not feel comfortable with my husband in yours. Please respect that" and I will tell him the same. His inability to just simply respect my feelings regardless of his personal take on things has been problem for years. But this is one where he'll have "let me have my way" or this marriage can't last.


Tell me if this sounds similar:

Him: [Maricha] saw text conversation and freaked out that she was gonna lose me.
Her: I'm sorry, maybe we should just stop talking. I don't want to cause trouble....
Him: No, no, she's ok with it, as long as there is no sexual talk at all.
Her: I just don't want to come between you...
Him: You won't, trust me... or more like you won't trust me. 

A few days later, I found out EXACTLY how they felt. And I gave the ultimatum of her or me. He chose me, his wife, the woman he pledged to spend the rest of his life with. Yea, at one point, she actually said "no offense, but maybe now, she knows a little of how you felt"... and she even had the audacity to ask me "did you ever stop to think maybe I am the reason for his behavior now?".... EA, and it got squashed.... 12 years married and counting. And that b!tch is out.


----------



## Zanna

Any relationship or friendship that causes problems for your marriage has to go.

Your M should be more important to your H than this friendship. (As you already know!)

And his wife's happiness should come first.

It's not about control. It's about marital boundaries and respecting the feelings of your spouse above all others.

Your H's friendship with this woman is so inappropriate and I'm sorry for your frustration. I would be furious with him after that conversation. Not acceptable at all.

I hope MC can help you.


----------



## 2ndchanc81370

I agree with everyone here. 

I understand how you feel -- I would feel the same way too. I'm sorry, but I don't totally believe it is just "friendship" especially with your husband staying at her house. You simply have to put your foot down and talk to your husband (NOT the "friend") that this situation should not continue.

Good luck! I hope your husband realizes what his action is causing you.


----------



## TRy

Astonefeather said:


> At one point he pulled off the road and called his friend. I was horrified and asked him not to make this is a discussion with her. It's our marriage, she doesn't get a say in it. He did it anyway while I just sat there and cried. He told her that I wasn't allowing him to see her anymore because I thought they were having a sexual affair- which is not the case at all! Then he handed me the phone which I started not to take, but then figured "what the hell" and explained to her my issues in a general way.


 Two things major wrong with this. One, he should never allow another person into what should be a private intimate conversation between two married people; by doing so he just let her into your marraige and disrespected your legitimate wishes for him not to do so. Two, he turned it into a two on one debate where they ganged up on you (which is unfair), with them being together as a team and you being the outsider by yourself; not only was she in your marraige, but her status was one of being better than your equal since she was on his team and you were not. Ignoring normal martial boundaries is what makes this an emotional affair (EA). 



Astonefeather said:


> She said: "Okay well that will be good u will get to see everyone. I'm out of town. I don't feel comfortable coming down at all anymore. I feel bad I made her so upset".


 It is official. This text confirms that she in not a friend of the marraige. Even couples that are OK with opposite sex friends, require that these opposite sex friends be friends of the marraige. Again, they are ignoring normal martial boundaries. 



Astonefeather said:


> When he mentioned plans to go home to see friends, I offered to accompany him. The "other woman" is apparently going to be out of town, but I still want to make an effort to see his friends and visit with his mother. He's not sure he wants me to go because I'm a "party pooper" which is exceptionally hurtful, but I guess true.


 Wow!! Big red flag. He just told you to your face that she is welcome and you are not. Again, picking teams he picks her over you. Also, another common boundary for couples that are OK with opposite sex friend is that the spouse is always welcome.

Bottom line, is that your husband's relationship with this other woman (OM) crosses many standard marital boundaries even for some of the most open minded couples that are OK with opposite sex friends. It appears that other than not having sex with her (big if BTW), your husband does not respect any marital boundaries with the OW what so ever.


----------



## FirstYearDown

I had two close male friends and I had dated each of them when I was much younger. When they got into serious relationships, neither of their partners wanted me around because they felt insecure. Even though I miss my friends, I graciously stepped down. There are no more calls or visits.

If this woman was a real friend of your husband's, she would do the same. 

Since your husband sees her alone in her home for weekends, I wouldn't be surprised if he was already banging her. Closed door movie nights? Give me a break! You have been allowing this to go on for far too long. Stand up for yourself and your marriage.


----------



## vi_bride04

I'm sorry but your husband is an EA. My husband said similar things about a Co worker who he has only known a few months. i will be moving out on Friday.....

Either this stops or it doesn't. And it looks like its not going to stop by your husbands actions. It is time for some consequences. Are you ready for that? The disrespect he is showing to you and your marriage is unbelievable!!!


----------



## vi_bride04

FirstYearDown said:


> I had two close male friends and I had dated each of them when I was much younger. When they got into serious relationships, neither of their partners wanted me around because they felt insecure. Even though I miss my friends, I graciously stepped down. There are no more calls or visits.
> 
> If this woman was a real friend of your husband's, she would do the same.
> 
> Since your husband sees her alone in her home for weekends, I wouldn't be surprised if he was already banging her. Closed door movie nights? Give me a break! You have been allowing this to go on for far too long. Stand up for yourself and your marriage.


:thumbup: couldn't agree with this post any more!!


----------



## forlorn99

Astonefeather said:


> My husband and I had a long discussion about the matter on a trip home to see my family for my birthday. 3 hours in the car each way allowed for a lot of talk time. He defended his friend and his fidelity. I explained many times over that I was never truly concerned about them having sex, but the fact that he was defending her like she had equal status was the problem in itself.
> 
> At one point he pulled off the road and called his friend. I was horrified and asked him not to make this is a discussion with her. It's our marriage, she doesn't get a say in it. He did it anyway while I just sat there and cried. He told her that I wasn't allowing him to see her anymore because I thought they were having a sexual affair- which is not the case at all! Then he handed me the phone which I started not to take, but then figured "what the hell" and explained to her my issues in a general way.
> 
> I said that I respect their 18 years of friendship, that I am not concerned about any sexual component to their relationship, but that I cannot accept that she reaches out to him for her every emotional need. That I cannot allow my husband to spend weekends alone with her regardless of how many other friends they see while he's up there. She cannot call EVERY DAY and she needed to find another support base. She did the whole "I understand" thing and then proceeded to give me marital advice!!!! I told her I was not going to have this conversation with her and hung up.
> 
> I tried a different approach with my husband the next day on our return trip home. I calmly gave examples of what he does for me as my husband- birthday trips, attending funerals, attending weddings, holding me when I'm upset, etc. Then I explained that she calls him for the EXACT same things despite the fact that she has her own husband. Because that's the issue. He seemed to understand it when he realized that she does ask him to attend funerals, weddings, etc with her. He said he wouldn't stay with her and that he was sorry.
> 
> I have now told them both as honestly as I am able that my husband isn't for sharing. He is going to be a father in September and the situation as it stands is unacceptable.
> 
> At one point I said "her or me" or something to that effect. I made it clear that I consider this an emotional affair and I will not be with someone who can't respect my feelings on this. Rational or not, the fact that he won't just walk away speaks volumes.
> 
> I did an immature thing and I snooped. For the first time in 7 years I looked through his cell phone.
> 
> He messaged her after we got home- after we had that horrible three way conversation on the side of the road the previous day and said "worst pregnancy tolerance ever"
> She replied: " I'm afraid 2 talk 2 u. after that... that was upsetting. you're not coming r u 2"
> 
> He said: "No, not this weekend, unlikely but we'll see. I need to smooth things over big time. You are welcome and wanted to come down. I'll probably try and make it up next weekend instead since this weekend is"
> 
> She said: "Okay well that will be good u will get to see everyone. I'm out of town. I don't feel comfortable coming down at all anymore. I feel bad I made her so upset"
> 
> 
> He has also spoken to her several times since we got home over the phone, but never when I was around apparently. True to his word he has been wonderful to me lately. When he mentioned plans to go home to see friends, I offered to accompany him. The "other woman" is apparently going to be out of town, but I still want to make an effort to see his friends and visit with his mother. He's not sure he wants me to go because I'm a "party pooper" which is exceptionally hurtful, but I guess true. I don't like to stay out until 2 am watching him party with his friends from high school, but I would do the best I can at 7 months pregnant to stay awake with him. I figured I would just go back to his mother's house while he was out late being social. But I've been emotional lately and he doesn't want me to ruin his good time it seems.
> 
> And to be completely honest, I'm not 100% convinced that his friend won't magically be in town and he won't accidentally forget his word and stay with her. Yes, her home is more comfortable. Yes, her home is closer to town. Yes, it would be the end of my ability to trust him again if he disregards my feelings and stays with her. It would quite possibility be the end of our marriage. I will not tolerate infidelity (even if he only considers sex cheating) and I will not tolerate abuse. This, in many ways, is both.
> 
> I've told him as much. It's all I can do. I thought I might message her before he leaves this weekend (or whenever he goes up there next) and say "Just as you do not feel comfortable in my home, I do not feel comfortable with my husband in yours. Please respect that" and I will tell him the same. His inability to just simply respect my feelings regardless of his personal take on things has been problem for years. But this is one where he'll have "let me have my way" or this marriage can't last.


I have to tell you that this is a very bad road that you are headed down. Me and my wife started spending time with friends alone, she would go out with the girls etc and I would go out with my friends without her. It causes a rift in your marriage. Since her infidelity we go out together and if her friends do not want me to go she does not go. I take her to all the get together with my friends as well. There is a problem and spending more time apart is not going to fix it. I would pose the question to him regarding how pleased he would be if you spent the weekend at one of your guy friends homes alone.. I can tell you I would never even ask or consider something like that because it is not proper behavior for a married man. You need to establish boundaries, right now you do not have acceptable boundaries concerning other people in your marriage. It does not get better if you allow it to continue believe me I know. It will lead to a physical affair (not necessarily with that particular girl) because the line of what is acceptable will continue to move towards it. You HAVE to put a stop to it immediately.


----------



## that_girl

She's in love with him and is jealous.

Your husband shouldn't choose any relationship over the marriage. 

She can make new friends. That's life. It changes all the time.


----------



## MattMatt

I had a needy friend just like this.

My wife told me that she was 'after me'. But I didn't believe my wife. I think this was because my wife had been brutally honest about my physical looks (her Aspieness talking as I later realised) so I knew that my needy friend could not see me in a sexual way, right? Wrong!

I heard this second-hand. 

When my wife and I got our first home together needy friend became hysterical at a mutual friend's house: "Matt's moved in with her! Now I know we'll never be together!" and balled her eyes out for over an hour.

*And I never had a clue that she felt about me in this way. *

It transpired she thought I'd make a good father for her two boys. Sadly it was this needy friend who was the person I confessed my affair to, who told me I should confess to my wife. So I feel I really lost a good friend.


----------



## Coffee Amore

It would make my blood boil if my husband called a close female friend (he doesn't have any) and shared a very private conversation we were having about her. 

I'm sorry, but I think your husband IS in an emotional affair. The two of them have an alliance. You're on the outside. You know in police interrogation rooms where you can look in but can't see out. Well they can see in (see you) but you can't see what they're up to. When a husband shifts his alliance from his wife to a female friend, that's an affair. 

If he would so casually MAKE you talk to her, you can bet he's shared many, many intimate details about your marriage that she shouldn't know. You know far less about her than she knows about you. He's not acting like a happily married man. 

Have you read the book Not "Just Friends" by Shirley Glass? It's an excellent book that shows how the transition from friendship to affair happens slowly . Here's a free 10 question quiz "Has Your Friendship Become an Emotional Affair?"

Dr. Shirley Glass - Quiz: Has Your Friendship Become an Emotional Affair?

I don't want to beat you up over this, but you have been far too tolerant. What were you thinking when you allowed them to have closed door movie sessions together? I realize it's hip these days to show that one isn't jealous or insecure, but really close platonic male/female friendships happen on TV, movies and the books. In real life things get messy fast if both people have very poor boundaries.


----------



## NextTimeAround

****My husband and I had a long discussion about the matter on a trip home to see my family for my birthday. 3 hours in the car each way allowed for a lot of talk time. He defended his friend and his fidelity.* I explained many times over that I was never truly concerned about them having sex, but the fact that he was defending her like she had equal status was the problem in itself. *

At one point he pulled off the road and called his friend. I was horrified and asked him not to make this is a discussion with her. It's our marriage, she doesn't get a say in it. He did it anyway while I just sat there and cried. *He told her that I wasn't allowing him to see her anymore because I thought they were having a sexual affair- which is not the case at all*! Then he handed me the phone which I started not to take, but then figured "what the hell" and explained to her my issues in a general way.

*I said that I respect their 18 years of friendship, that I am not concerned about any sexual component to their relationship, but that I cannot accept that she reaches out to him for her every emotional need.* That I cannot allow my husband to spend weekends alone with her regardless of how many other friends they see while he's up there. *She cannot call EVERY DAY and she needed to find another support base. *She did the whole "I understand" thing and then proceeded to give me marital advice!!!! I told her I was not going to have this conversation with her and hung up. 

I tried a different approach with my husband the next day on our return trip home. I calmly gave examples of what he does for me as my husband- birthday trips, attending funerals, attending weddings, holding me when I'm upset, etc. Then I explained that she calls him for the EXACT same things despite the fact that she has her own husband. Because that's the issue. He seemed to understand it when he realized that she does ask him to attend funerals, weddings, etc with her. He said he wouldn't stay with her and that he was sorry. ****

too much talk, you sound to your husband like the adults on Peanuts. You're trying to sound as if you're the good guy here, ready to negotiate and compromise and we can tell that this woman is not about compromise. They usually aren't.

I know now, if people don't get my non verbal messages, then they're either playing dumb or are too dumb to waste my time on.

You can be sure, if I were in your situation, I would have been on the phone to mutual friends asking them to help take care of this woman because I am pregnant and my husband just no longer has the time.

you might as well try it. Your efforts to be honest broker has certainly backfired (as I had already predicted.)


----------



## NextTimeAround

Thorburn said:


> First of all I understand where you are coming from, but, you allowed a friendship to continue that should have ended years ago. It is not a good relationship, you know that, but you allowed it and actually by your actions promoted it. Now you are seeing the light. As an outsider this relationship should have ended when you started dating.


I think that's a bit mean. the general consensus out there in real life is that it is cool to have opposite sex friendships and if you aren't cool with it, then the problem is with you. Let's see, paranoid, jealous, insecure.

Probably everywhere she went before she got here, she was told to do nothing because the relationship "says more about them than it does about her" or some such.


----------



## The Middleman

From my POV this isn't a friend ship, he's been having an 18 year EA. the minute he committed to you and certainly after you married, that "friendship" should have ended "cold turkey". Simply put, you need to demand that he choose either you or her and that he chooses now, not after the baby. I would also back it up by contacting lawyer if he doesn't comply. Your husband seems to be very immature and you share a fair amount of blame for allowing this to go on as long as it did.


----------



## survivorwife

Astonefeather said:


> At one point he pulled off the road and called his friend. I was horrified and asked him not to make this is a discussion with her. It's our marriage, she doesn't get a say in it. He did it anyway while I just sat there and cried. He told her that I wasn't allowing him to see her anymore because I thought they were having a sexual affair- which is not the case at all! Then he handed me the phone which I started not to take, but then figured "what the hell" and explained to her my issues in a general way.
> 
> I said that I respect their 18 years of friendship, that I am not concerned about any sexual component to their relationship, but that I cannot accept that she reaches out to him for her every emotional need. That I cannot allow my husband to spend weekends alone with her regardless of how many other friends they see while he's up there. She cannot call EVERY DAY and she needed to find another support base. She did the whole "I understand" thing and then proceeded to give me marital advice!!!! I told her I was not going to have this conversation with her and hung up.


Right here. This is where he take an intimate family discussion between himself and his wife and brazenly brings the OW right on into the discussion, as if SHE is in charge. Even has the utter gall to hand YOU the phone. She has no business being into the discussion. And afterwards they have a little chat without you. She is definitely the OW in your marriage, regardless of whether they have slept together or not.

It might be ultimatum time. Her or you. Period. Either you and he are a couple, or you are not. You will not tolerate being second in his heart.

Others have suggested that you get the book "Just Friends" and maybe show him what an EA is all about. He is in one. The OW obviously doesn't care about boundaries and he is being oblivious to your feelings. So long as she is involved as a consultant in your private affairs, she is a threat to your marriage, and you do need to get her out. The obvious other alternative is if you leave (temporarily) to show him that you are dead serious. 

Could he honestly say he would tolerate the same if the roles where reversed? If it was you who had a male friend that you consulted with outside of your marriage? Visited and stayed with? Forced your spouse to accept the status-quo?


----------



## Sporto

He spoke to her after your conversation with him. I can only guess that he values his relationship with her more than his marriage. That is sad, If you do not say or do anything it will continue. You set your boundry and he crossed it. What are you going to do about It. If nothing you are going to be misserable. HAVE SOME RESPECT FOR YOURSELF!! HE DOESN"T so it is time for consequenses.


----------



## survivorwife

Sporto said:


> He spoke to her after your conversation with him. I can only guess that he values his relationship with her more than his marriage. That is sad, If you do not say or do anything it will continue. You set your boundry and he crossed it. What are you going to do about It. If nothing you are going to be misserable. HAVE SOME RESPECT FOR YOURSELF!! HE DOESN"T so it is time for consequenses.


:iagree:

He will not sever the damaging relationship with the OW until he fully realizes that there are consequences. The OW will not budge as she loses nothing. She is confident that this will go underground if need be (as evidenced by him calling her after this exchange). The H has proven that this relationship will go underground by placing the call to her. Time for the "big guns"


----------



## Coffee Amore

Astonefeather said:


> My husband and I had a long discussion about the matter on a trip home to see my family for my birthday. 3 hours in the car each way allowed for a lot of talk time. He defended his friend and his fidelity. I explained many times over that I was never truly concerned about them having sex, but the fact that he was defending her like she had equal status was the problem in itself.
> 
> At one point he pulled off the road and called his friend. I was horrified and asked him not to make this is a discussion with her. It's our marriage, she doesn't get a say in it. He did it anyway while I just sat there and cried. He told her that I wasn't allowing him to see her anymore because I thought they were having a sexual affair- which is not the case at all! Then he handed me the phone which I started not to take, but then figured "what the hell" and explained to her my issues in a general way.
> 
> I said that I respect their 18 years of friendship, that I am not concerned about any sexual component to their relationship, but that I cannot accept that she reaches out to him for her every emotional need. That I cannot allow my husband to spend weekends alone with her regardless of how many other friends they see while he's up there. She cannot call EVERY DAY and she needed to find another support base. She did the whole "I understand" thing and then proceeded to give me marital advice!!!! I told her I was not going to have this conversation with her and hung up.
> 
> I tried a different approach with my husband the next day on our return trip home. I calmly gave examples of what he does for me as my husband- birthday trips, attending funerals, attending weddings, holding me when I'm upset, etc. Then I explained that she calls him for the EXACT same things despite the fact that she has her own husband. Because that's the issue. He seemed to understand it when he realized that she does ask him to attend funerals, weddings, etc with her. He said he wouldn't stay with her and that he was sorry.
> 
> I have now told them both as honestly as I am able that my husband isn't for sharing. He is going to be a father in September and the situation as it stands is unacceptable.
> 
> At one point I said "her or me" or something to that effect. I made it clear that I consider this an emotional affair and I will not be with someone who can't respect my feelings on this. Rational or not, the fact that he won't just walk away speaks volumes.
> 
> I did an immature thing and I snooped. For the first time in 7 years I looked through his cell phone.
> 
> He messaged her after we got home- after we had that horrible three way conversation on the side of the road the previous day and said "worst pregnancy tolerance ever"
> She replied: " I'm afraid 2 talk 2 u. after that... that was upsetting. you're not coming r u 2"
> 
> He said: "No, not this weekend, unlikely but we'll see. I need to smooth things over big time. You are welcome and wanted to come down. I'll probably try and make it up next weekend instead since this weekend is"
> 
> She said: "Okay well that will be good u will get to see everyone. I'm out of town. I don't feel comfortable coming down at all anymore. I feel bad I made her so upset"
> 
> 
> He has also spoken to her several times since we got home over the phone, but never when I was around apparently. True to his word he has been wonderful to me lately. When he mentioned plans to go home to see friends, I offered to accompany him. The "other woman" is apparently going to be out of town, but I still want to make an effort to see his friends and visit with his mother. He's not sure he wants me to go because I'm a "party pooper" which is exceptionally hurtful, but I guess true. I don't like to stay out until 2 am watching him party with his friends from high school, but I would do the best I can at 7 months pregnant to stay awake with him. I figured I would just go back to his mother's house while he was out late being social. But I've been emotional lately and he doesn't want me to ruin his good time it seems.
> 
> And to be completely honest, I'm not 100% convinced that his friend won't magically be in town and he won't accidentally forget his word and stay with her. Yes, her home is more comfortable. Yes, her home is closer to town. Yes, it would be the end of my ability to trust him again if he disregards my feelings and stays with her. It would quite possibility be the end of our marriage. I will not tolerate infidelity (even if he only considers sex cheating) and I will not tolerate abuse. This, in many ways, is both.
> 
> I've told him as much. It's all I can do. I thought I might message her before he leaves this weekend (or whenever he goes up there next) and say "Just as you do not feel comfortable in my home, I do not feel comfortable with my husband in yours. Please respect that" and I will tell him the same. His inability to just simply respect my feelings regardless of his personal take on things has been problem for years. But this is one where he'll have "let me have my way" or this marriage can't last.


Your husband has no sense of boundaries. 

He also wants the lifestyle of a young single man while he's married. He can't have both. If he wants to party it up, stay out all night, stay with an extremely close female friend, he should be single. 

You're taken far too much over the years. You didn't defend your boundaries. If you say something is your limit, HAVE a consequence for it. Mean what you say. If you say that something is off limits, enforce it. Don't beg, don't ask the other person to promise, don't have endless talks about it. It's meaningless to say "this is my limit" then stay when that line is crossed by your partner. When you don't defend you boundary, you look weak. It shows the other person that you'll say one thing but you tolerate another. 

This woman is like a vampire sucking away at your marriage. How do you kill a vampire? Do you tap lightly at it once then sit back see if it's dead? Do you beg and politely "oh please, please respect my marriage"? No, of course not. You would be swift and decisive. Same way, there has to be some decisive action. Decide now if you're going to stay or leave. I realize it's very easy for us on the internet to say that. We're not in your shoes. I KNOW you're in a tough spot right now given that you are pregnant. And the time to have sorted this out was months ago but pregnant or not, you still have to decide whether you'll stay in a marriage where your husband is with another woman, taking care of her, taking care of her emotional needs, confiding in her about you, telling you that you can't come along.


----------



## OneLoveXo

Astonefeather said:


> *he would have her over for "movie night" and they would watch movies in his closed bedroom all night long.*


NO matter how of "guy's girl" she is, staying behind closed doors in unacceptable. I was a guy's girl myself, but my bf started feeling uncomfrtable with who I considered one of my best friend, I broke off with that friend and we rarely hang out together, and it's only if my bf is with me. (this friend of mine is serial cheater, so I could understand why my bf felt so umcomfortable, he is the only that matter most to me not some guy friend). Also just because his friend's say nothing is going on, doens't mean there isn't. You will see on here, most of the time more than 1-3 friends know of the affair, often egging them and supoprting them to cheat.




> she has been extremely needy and demanding of his time. She has a common law husband that she been with for years, she has a large family and many friends local to her yet she calls my husband at all hours of the night and day for his help dealing with her problems.


If she has a husband and family, she should not have the need to constnatly turn to your husband, have them take of her, your husband needs to take care of you!





> she keeps upping the stakes and finding ways to make him feel compelled to go see her.


She is manipulating your husband, she has her own, what does she need him for? Clearly this goes deeper.



> I am currently seven months pregnant with our first child. I am no longer comfortable with my husband leaving me for days at a time to help his friend deal with her every day life.


This almost makes me sick, *WTF is he doing leaving you DAYS at a time to go help this woman*, seriously WTF is wrong with your husband. NO women should be this important to him than YOU, especially since you're pregnant and he is leaving you ALONE for DAYS. BIG RED FLAG! it's not okay to have this sort of attachment and relationship with someone.



> she called him *crying and demanding *he go up there right away and he agreed to go up there. Since her reasons for needing him are becoming increasingly *far-fetched *(she think she has a brain tumor and her house was robbed but there is no police report, etc), *I asked that my husband stop staying with her.* Her "lover" (common law husband) is out of town and it would be the two of them alone all weekend.


No women should be this demanding of YOUR husband's attention except YOU, you are his wife, not her. When you asked him to stop staying with her, what did he say? I would NEVER alow nor put up with my husband doing this to, especially if I was pregnant. *You really need to make him choose between YOU or HER. And if he ever goes to see her, you should ALWAYS accompany him.* It sounds like he is more of husband to her than he is to you, he may be doing out of the goodness of his heart, but you are the owner of his heart, not that rediculous woman. Why can't she go to her other "guy" friends or her family and just leave you and your poor husband alone?!




> The level of "crazy" she has reached is really upsetting to me. She has started messaging me to get him to respond to her faster. "Tell him he HAS TO CALL ME, it's an emergency" or "I know your there, tell him to call me!" etc.


Again, not acceptable, I can't believe you're putting up with this. Put your foot down, you do not need this sort of stress especially with they baby on the way.



> He agrees that once the baby is here she can't be doing this


He agreed to this till AFTER you have the baby? Are you kidding me, you need him now more than ever, it needs to be now. Stop being so nice and trustful, you've gone beyond what most other wives would put up with.



> What it has come down to is the fact that he promised not to stay in her house this weekend when he goes up there again. He promised to stay with his mother who is very much looking forward to seeing him. But then I heard him on the phone telling his friend to "get the guest room ready for him" and making plans. I confronted him and he tried to make me feel silly for worrying.


He will say and do many things to make you feel better, doesn't mean he isn't lying to you. You know how many men just sweep it under the rug just like he just did?

This is becoming a *SERIOUS PROBLEM*, your husband is putting and spending all his attention on this one insignificant woman. 
Also because he lying to you, I don't think it's just for the "comfort" that he is staying with her, I am sure he has "other" reasons. *You need to either GO WITH HIM or make him choose between you or her*, there is nothing between, you already were so lininant and this just keep blowing more and more out proportion. I would NEVER put up with this B.S. no matter how long they have been friends or how close they are.



> He's always liked being the hero and he always will. But with this particular friend, I am *extremely uncomfortable*. It's creating *a lot of negative tension and he won't make any effort to do anything about it.*


Read this again, to yourself. He doesn't make any effort to do anything about it, BIG RED FLAG. You need to put your foot down, go with him, do NOT allow him to go alone anymore, he has overstep his bounds and he is not doing anything to help you. If he continues to put her before you, I would be extremely concerned and surprised if he isn't at very least having an EA, if not PA.

I don't want to stress you out doll, but this won't get better if you don't put your foot down. *I wouldn't even leave him any options, if I was you I would tell him it's me or her, that's all there is to it. *If she NEEDS him SOOO damn bad, she should just come down here herself and rent a hotel room, you should not have to put up with this B.S.

Please put your foot down, I hope there is no PA yet, but it could very well turn into one, especially once you start dealing with a baby, thats bring everything up a notch.

If he wants to see her so bad, he would let you come or she can come here, if he doesn't than there is something going on for sure. I am already suspisious and even your sub-conscious is telling you the same, more often than not your instinct is right. He is not her bell boy, it's rediculous he has to go out that far to even see her.

You come first, put your foot down and make it that way.
Good luck honey, but DO NOT put up with this, you do not need this sort of stress and he should ABOVE all know that. YOU, YOU are the only thing important now, you and your baby, clearly you're so stressed and worried about this that you seeked out help, to help you realize you're not crazy, it's not you and your hormones. 

I would NEVER have even let them stay with door closed if we were starting to date, no matter how close they are. I would have NEVER let him stay with her alone, NEVER. Sounds like he is also making other plans, check bills, do a keylogger and VAR. It never hurts to protect yourself and your baby. The fact that he is spending SO much attention on her is unnatural and unaacceptable. *Make him choose you or her.* 

You've gone beyond your duty, you sacrificed enough, and now they are just overstepping all your toes and boundaries, put a stop to it now.

Wish you all the best *hugs*


----------



## OneLoveXo

FirstYearDown said:


> I had two close male friends and I had dated each of them when I was much younger. When they got into serious relationships, neither of their partners wanted me around because they felt insecure. Even though I miss my friends, I graciously stepped down. There are no more calls or visits.
> 
> If this woman was a real friend of your husband's, she would do the same.
> 
> Since your husband sees her alone in her home for weekends, I wouldn't be surprised if he was already banging her. Closed door movie nights? Give me a break! You have been allowing this to go on for far too long. Stand up for yourself and your marriage.


:iagree: absolutely! Honey, i would do some bigger digging, just in case. He has diserepected you in so many ways, no good faithful husband does that. I would do keylogger and VAR under car seat just to be sure. I honestly pray to go it's not PA, but I would be surprised if it has been going for a long time. She needs way to much attention from someone who is married and is not her husband.


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## Astonefeather

Here's a question- To what extent should I follow up on my husband's actions? If he goes back home to visit his friends, do I do anything to see if she was around (despite her saying she was going to be out of town) or if he stayed with her? Because she is very integrated into his existing/long-term set of friends back home.

At first I thought that I trusted him, but just didn't feel comfortable with him staying with her. The lengths to which he argued and fought over this one request lets me know that he can't be trusted in this matter. It wasn't even an "attack" (as he sees it) or a fight when I brought it up. I just explained that she has reached a new level of dependency and while it was totally okay for him to go home for a few days, I would prefer he not stay with her. His immediate anger over this was an eye opener.

He's been travelling every few weeks these past couple of months to see his friends, go camping at a music festival, and to visit family out West. He's trying to get as much "fun time" in before the baby comes as he can. And while I'm okay with it and pleased that he accepts that with a new baby we won't be going anywhere for a while, I wonder if maybe he feels trapped down here with me now that a baby is coming. The baby was planned, but I did pregnant about two seconds after we started trying. And I've had a rough pregnancy- neither of us was expecting it to be so crappy- so I know I've been no fun lately.

So he goes to see his friends, and he drinks, and he stays out late and stays with his good female friend who has a nice guest bedroom and is close to town. He stayed with her earlier this summer and I had no problem. The only red flag was that every time we spoke while he was away she was there. I even asked if she was monopolizing his time and keeping him from seeing his other friends since she's always been clingy. He explained more recently that the trip was just to see her because she was toying with the idea of moving to New York for grad school. He had wanted to make a special farewell trip since he feels that I wouldn't let him go up to New York to see her. Then he starts in on how I don't let him to go other places to other friends. Which isn't true, obviously, or he wouldn't have been back home 3 times in the past 2 months.

Naturally, she's no longer seriously planning to move to New York. Surprise, surprise. But honestly, this level of doing anything she can to get my husband to see her wasn't a problem until recently when defended her over it. I said I was uncomfortable and he told me to get over it/deal with it/too bad, so sad, etc. Even if he's completely innocent, she is not. And the fact that I have been made to feel that way should be enough to make him drop her like a rock. 

At one point I said "her or me" then I went back on that and said just don't stay at her place. Now I'm feeling that the only way this will work for me is if he just avoids her altogether. He doesn't have to call her when he's home and going out with other friends. If no other friends are available, then too bad for him I guess. His other friends have moved on in a lot of ways, this one woman is the only person still hanging around with nothing to do.

I'm not sure how to bring it up without starting another huge fight. He's been better to me in the past few days than he has been in years. I know he's trying to ease my concerns, but it doesn't work that way. I know how much he loves and how much he loves our baby. But he just can't have his family and this friend if it's going to cause such a rift. He's asked me to give up male friends in the past. We broke up at one point in our relationship and I dated other men. One guy remained a friend after I got back together with my husband (it was before we were married). My husband didn't like the other guy being in communication with me, so I dropped him. I blocked him on Facebook and haven't seen in person in three years. The other guy did NOTHING wrong and I had ZERO interest in him romantically. We went on two dates and realized we were going to be buddies, nothing more. At some point the block on his ability to post on my Facebook was lifted. It could have been 2 years ago for all I know, but my friend made a joke about a post I made about a little while ago. I laughed out loud and my husband looked over and read it and got mad when he saw who had made me smile. So I reblocked him. Because even though my husband was being irrational in my my opinion, I respected him and our relationship enough to just drop the other guy with no questions. I pointed this out to him during our fight and he argued that since I officially dated this other guy it was different. 

I decided that if he goes up there and stays with her, I will leave for a while. I run a business from home so it's hard to leave for more than a day at a time, but I will figure it out. But how do I follow up without being insane about it?


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## Wanting1

Bingo! He has asked you to give up opposite sex friends that made him uncomfortable. This means that he gets it. He just doesn't think it applies to him. 

I think this woman is a real threat to your marriage. At the very least, she has him in a holding pattern. If her marriage ever fails, she will probably pull him in completely. 

Have you read "Not Just Friends"? It's a real eye opener. He's so thick in it, I bet he won't appreciate it though. 

I think making yourself scarce is a good plan. I wish you the best. I think you have a hard road ahead. At least for awhile. Hopefully, he will do the right thing by you and your child.


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## Maricha75

Astonefeather said:


> I'm not sure how to bring it up without starting another huge fight. He's been better to me in the past few days than he has been in years. I know he's trying to ease my concerns, but it doesn't work that way. I know how much he loves and how much he loves our baby. But he just can't have his family and this friend if it's going to cause such a rift. *He's asked me to give up male friends in the past.* We broke up at one point in our relationship and I dated other men. One guy remained a friend after I got back together with my husband (it was before we were married). *My husband didn't like the other guy being in communication with me, so I dropped him.* I blocked him on Facebook and haven't seen in person in three years. The other guy did NOTHING wrong and I had ZERO interest in him romantically. We went on two dates and realized we were going to be buddies, nothing more. At some point the block on his ability to post on my Facebook was lifted. It could have been 2 years ago for all I know, but my friend made a joke about a post I made about a little while ago. *I laughed out loud and my husband looked over and read it and got mad when he saw who had made me smile. So I reblocked him. Because even though my husband was being irrational in my my opinion, I respected him and our relationship enough to just drop the other guy with no questions.* I pointed this out to him during our fight and *he argued that since I officially dated this other guy it was different.*
> 
> I decided that if he goes up there and stays with her, I will leave for a while. I run a business from home so it's hard to leave for more than a day at a time, but I will figure it out. But how do I follow up without being insane about it?


Technically speaking, he has dated this "friend" as well. You went NC with this old friend of yours, someone you dated, because HE was uncomfortable with it. You deserve the EXACT SAME RESPECT! I'd give the "her or me" again, and make it stick... And tell him the consequences of breaking the NC. This woman is NOT a friend of the marriage. Honestly, at this point, in pregnancy, I wouldn't feel comfortable with my husband being away UNLESS NECESSARY (i.e. WORK related). And don't let him get away with the "I guess I can't have any friends" bs either... It isn't ALL friends, only THIS friend, who has proven to NOT be a friend to the marriage.


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## FirstYearDown

If my husband called some other woman right in front of me and complained that I am not happy with their relationship....let's just say he'd be hobbling for a week because my knee would hit his crotch. 

It is all fine and dandy that you want to be nice, but sometimes we women need to get tough and set some boundaries. My husband would not DARE to try such sh!t with me because he knows I ain't no shrinking violet. 

Maybe he feels that because you are pregnant, you are more dependant on him and therefore he can do what he wants. How about exposing his affair? That is the best way to get it to stop-tell your family members and friends what your husband is doing. After that, tell your husband that if he wants to keep his rude and needy friend, you will not be around to tolerate it. If the EA continues, find a lawyer to start divorce proceedings. You and your child deserve to be respected and treated as the #1 priority.

Your husband fighting tooth and nail to see this woman is a huge red flag.


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## survivorwife

Astonefeather said:


> I decided that if he goes up there and stays with her, I will leave for a while. I run a business from home so it's hard to leave for more than a day at a time, but I will figure it out. But how do I follow up without being insane about it?


I would recommend that you go ballistic on him. You call constantly. You tell him you are not feeling well. You need him. In short, you destroy their "fun" by inserting yourself into their little get together as often as you can by calling him with questions, problems, any little stupid thing to throw him (and her) off their game. How do you get away with it? Well, you are pregnant.  What's he going to do?

Then, if he decides to cut his visit short and come home, you suddenly feel better. You see, "insane" is okay when you are pregnant!


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## Maricha75

survivorwife said:


> I would recommend that you go ballistic on him. You call constantly. You tell him you are not feeling well. You need him. In short, you destroy their "fun" by inserting yourself into their little get together as often as you can by calling him with questions, problems, any little stupid thing to throw him (and her) off their game. How do you get away with it? Well, you are pregnant.  What's he going to do?
> 
> Then, if he decides to cut his visit short and come home, you suddenly feel better. *You see, "insane" is okay when you are pregnant! *



:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Bellavista

Your husband is a rescuer, the ow vailidates his need to feel like a hero. She knows what she is doing, but he probably does not see the damage he is doing to your relationship and making him see this without him going all defensive is going to be difficult. 
Perhaps it is not a physical relationship, but it seems she is keeping him dangling on the end of her hook & gains some kind of enjoyment out of making him jump.
I am no expert, but it does seem that an ultimatium may be the answer & be prepared to follow through. If you are not prepared to follow through, then don't make the ultimatium. There are always solutions to problems, if you cannot move out, tell him he will have to vacate the property if he cannot drop this woman.


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## Beelzebub

i have same kind of friend and is never been emotional. its hard to find a friend to click with.


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## that_girl

Thorburn said:


> First of all I understand where you are coming from, but, you allowed a friendship to continue that should have ended years ago. It is not a good relationship, you know that, but you allowed it and actually by your actions promoted it. Now you are seeing the light. As an outsider this relationship should have ended when you started dating.


Yes. My husband had this weird savior relationship with a female friend when we first started dating.

Funny how her "emergencies" were always on our dates 

I put the kibosh on that really quick. I said, "I won't be usurped for another female. If she's so important, then go rescue her, but i won't be here when you get back."

He stayed.


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## lou

Girl. Please. Shut this down quicker and faster than you are now.

My STBX-H had a friend exactly like yours. BFF for years. She called him all the time. Always an emergency only he could solve. I need a truck. You're the only one I trust to teach me to drive. Finally, it was "my boyfriend hit me" and then they ended up making out in the back of his truck.
Before this point I got the same garbage from him. "I'll cut down on talking to her" and then messaging her to allow things to "calm down" before starting up again. These women think your husband is THEIRS. You need to get him back, or this woman will continue to drive a wedge in you.

Be strong. Be firm. Don't allow him to turn the tables on you again!


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## Coffee Amore

that_girl said:


> Yes. My husband had this weird savior relationship with a female friend when we first started dating.
> 
> Funny how her "emergencies" were always on our dates
> 
> I put the kibosh on that really quick. I said, "I won't be usurped for another female. If she's so important, then go rescue her, but i won't be here when you get back."
> 
> He stayed.


That's a great example of a boundary. It's not about telling the other person what to do. It's telling them what you will do if a line is crossed.


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## Astonefeather

As it stands right now, we're going back home together this weekend. The OW is apparently still going to be out of town.

She called him today. He told me in passing because he also missed a couple other calls and wondered what was up with his phone. So, he doesn't see any issue with her still calling. But he also doesn't feel like it's a dirty secret that he needs to hide from me. 

I asked that if he returns her call that he not discuss with her the pros and cons of our relationship anymore. He agreed but didn't understand what I meant. So I elaborated that she was "his" friend, not "our" friend and I would prefer he confide in someone else if he needed to talk about us. Then he did that thing he's famous for where defends the other party no matter what the issue is. He asked if she could come to me with problems if she had them. I said no. At one point I considered her a friend to us both, but she has pushed me aside for him. So no, no she can't come to me if she needs help.

We'll see. I will have the "her or me" discussion when the opportunity presents itself in the coming days. Which, if she keeps calling, I'm sure it will.


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## The Middleman

I don't know how you put up with that, I would have thrown his f**king ass out of the house a long time ago, if I were in your shoes.


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## Acabado

Do you think your husband would be willing to go to MC. No MC would pass this "friendship" as healthy.
Boundaries in Marriage (Cloud & Townsend)
Emotional Infidelity (Gary Neuman)


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## Astonefeather

I've asked to go to counseling many times for other issues that need sorting, but the answer is a resounding no each time. I would probably have to leave him to get him to agree to MC.


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## warlock07

> It could have been 2 years ago for all I know, but my friend made a joke about a post I made about a little while ago. I laughed out loud and my husband looked over and read it and got mad when he saw who had made me smile. So I reblocked him.


Ask him exactly this. And there seem to be some amount of projection in his part. Careful Careful!!


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## Astonefeather

Well, I haven't snooped again. But he's gotten a couple of texts from her I believe- his phone beeps, he checks it, and ignores it. I'm fairly certain he is replying in secret. Though, again, I haven't snooped so I don't know. 

But it occurred to me that even though I told him I consider this an emotional affair and that I don't feel comfortable with her constant need for him, I technically have only officially asked that he not sleep over at her house.

A close friend reminded me that he sees this as hormonal surges from pregnancy, lack of medication, and/or simply having a tantrum. Basically, he doesn't think this is a real problem.

I want to wait until there is an opening to start the discussion again. I'm having a hard time worrying about it and being patient. The fact that he might have taken it underground is a big issue for me, but I don't know what else to do except suffer and wait to catch him talking to her in secret or something.

Part of me wants to confront the "friend" directly. Since my husband clearly sees my concerns as unfounded and she obviously isn't worried about her standing with my husband. I think about the three of us sitting down and me saying to my husband "choose"- her friendship or your family. And I will honor his choice and leave if he chooses her. We've been so close lately as he's tried to make me happy after my breakdown over this, but I'm sure he's consoling her as well. But I'm 7 months pregnant. This can't drag on much longer if I'm going to be having a baby alone or back home with my family. If it comes to that. I don't really think our marriage will end over this if he chooses me (unless there was sex involved), but I can't accept this person in my life right now. Maybe in a few years, but not now. Not when he refuses to even acknowledge there is a problem here. Not when he defends her against my feelings claiming I am having the "worst pregnancy tolerance ever" like I have never mentioned that she's a little too needy before. This is not out of the blue, but the line was finally crossed and there is no going back. She used to be his "strangely clingy, demanding friend" now she is damaging my marriage.

My husband asked me the other day if she could come to me for help if she needed me, I said "nope." I explained that she used to come to me when he wasn't around, but that she has since only used me as a stepping stone to get to him. She is not my friend. Maybe she was at one point, maybe she never cared for me at all. But when my husband forced me to talk to her on the phone the other day and we had a brief talk about my limits, she later apologized to him for making me upset. She hasn't come to me in friendship to explain herself, promise to give him space, or anything at all. Just silence. I'm just so sure that he's telling her soothing things about how I'll calm down once the baby's here and things will be okay and he'll see her next time, etc, that I keep having nightmares. He wants us all to be friends and that's not going to happen anytime soon. 

She used to come down to visit us, but she hasn't made the trip in the last 18 months at least. I actually don't recall the last time I've seen her in person. I simply can't go with him every time he wants to go home for more than a day or two at a time. Don't know what to do.


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## Phenix70

that_girl said:


> Yes. My husband had this weird savior relationship with a female friend when we first started dating.
> 
> Funny how her "emergencies" were always on our dates
> 
> I put the kibosh on that really quick. I* said, "I won't be usurped for another female. If she's so important, then go rescue her, but i won't be here when you get back."*
> 
> He stayed.


This is what you say to your husband,after all, what have you got to lose?
If he goes to her, then you have your answer.
You need to put in place your own boundary for your own peace of mind, to stop the "what if's" from happening.
He will know the consequences of his actions if he continues to persue a relationship with this woman.


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## Astonefeather

That's more or less the approach I want to take on this. I'm willing to leave over this if I have to.

But waiting for the opening to say this is where I'm stuck. If he keeps her under wraps for a month, then it'll be that much harder to follow through. I mean, I'll be 8 months pregnant and going to the OB every 2 weeks, etc. 

I feel like I dropped the ball when I said "just don't stay with her" as my main declaration. I said all sorts of things about how she shouldn't call daily, etc but the only true demand was don't sleep under the same roof. Which really was my only issue at first. The fact it turned into him defending her so vehemently and erupted into a fight that lasted days is the reason why I now want to say "her or me"

But since I didn't start off saying so, I know it will be another fight where he just thinks I'm jealous and crazy.


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## Coffee Amore

You SHOULD be looking at his texts and emails. He's involved in what was/is at least an emotional affair. Whether it's a physical affair isn't clear but who knows. If I were you I would install a keylogger and whatever else is needed to track his texts and emails. It's not snooping to find out more information about his activities with this female friend. I realize you may not want to know what he says to her and vice versa, but you should. Sticking your head in the sand won't do you any favors. 

Why do you have to wait for an opening to talk to him? Honey, you're being very passive here. There's not need to shout, yell or use profanity, but you CAN have a talk now. You are allowed to talk to your spouse about his behavior and how it's affecting you. 

Don't have a conversation with her, him and you. He's married to you. His vows are to you. As another human being you'd think she would have some morals, and as a fellow female you'd think she'd feel some kind of sisterhood with another woman and not trample on her marriage, but she doesn't feel that way and she isn't the one you need to talk to. It's your husband. It's his boundaries that need to be tightened. If a robber broke into your home and got past the flimsy security system guarding the place, are you going to talk to the robber or the security company? Here, the flimsy security system is your husband's bad boundaries. His bad boundaries aren't protecting the marriage or you. Talking to her is NOT a strong move on your part. Please don't do it. 


Find out from the pros on this CWI board how to put a keylogger and the other monitoring devices. His anger and defensiveness sound like he has taken this underground. 

Any chance you could get him to read "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass?


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## Astonefeather

He has more female friends than male friends. I have NO PROBLEM with him camping with his female friends (they're in a group anyway), or going to parties, etc with them. It's just this one person who I feel is a threat to our marriage. But my husband is acting like I am being completely insane and my feelings are unfounded.

I feel like in this one thing he should take my side even if he thinks I'm being irrational. If I feel like this is bad for our marriage, then it is. Because I am half of the marriage.


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## Maricha75

ASF, when I first learned of what was going on with my husband and the OW, I said "I don't want to lose you." He assured me that I wouldn't. When I saw more suggestive texting, I still didn't put my foot down. I merely said "no sexual talking of any kind", and he was agreeable. But the more I thought about it, the more it bothered me. I jumped every time he got a text. I felt miserable, sick to my stomach, you name it. It was a few days later when I said "her or me". He picked me.

The thing you need to stress to him is that he chose to marry you. You voiced concern about her incessant neediness over and over... I assume even before you married, right? You need to have the "her or me" talk with him. Remind him that he chose YOU to be his wife, best friend, partner FOR LIFE. If he tries to play the "I guess I can't have any friends" bull****, call him on it and tell him, "no, you can have friends... just not THAT friend." And, if he sees her, make sure he knows BEFOREHAND what the consequences will be (i.e. You will leave/divorce him). Don't back down, and don't let this continue.


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## Astonefeather

I lose. A swing and a miss.

He won't go to counseling. He won't drop his friend. He still says I'm the one with the problem.

He wants the three of us to sit down and talk. He says that her advice over the years about our relationship has been what has kept him trying. He says that if I make him drop this one friend, then next time it will be another friend and then another. 

He again keeps focusing on how it's not sexual - "she has no figure" "your boobs are bigger" etc like he isn't hearing me at all.

He insists that I am first on his list. But he is first on hers. He doesn't believe that, naturally. She doesn't have time to reach out to other people if she's calling him morning, noon and night. He won't even take a break from his friendship.

I am pathetic. I am desperate not to lose the father of my child over this. 

I asked that he not call her and include her in plans when he goes home- he refused.

I asked that he tell her she needs to back off and stop calling him with her problems- he wants to be available for her if she's in trouble.

I asked that he not be alone with her in any circumstance- he argued that it was stupid that he should need a chaperone.

They apparently haven't spoken in several days. He said I "frightened her" when I spoke to her on the phone. He was right there. I was crying over my crumbling marriage and asked her to find another support system. When she tried to offer marital advice I said "I'm not comfortable having this conversation" and got off the phone. I didn't threaten her. I didn't call her names. I just blubbered for 4 minutes like a fool.

But yeah, I'm the bad guy here. I asked my husband to take a break from his friend after she finally crossed the line. I had asked him for months to tell her not to call in the middle of the night. I have asked him for months to tell her to find help closer to home. She crossed the line when she started lying and crying to him. She crossed the line when she started coming after me with "I know your there, tell him to call me!" when he didn't respond right away. 

My husband won't give up his friend. He claims innocence, says I'm the most important person in the world, cried when I said I can't just accept it.


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## survivorwife

Astonefeather said:


> I lose. A swing and a miss.
> 
> He won't go to counseling. He won't drop his friend. He still says I'm the one with the problem.
> 
> He wants the three of us to sit down and talk. He says that her advice over the years about our relationship has been what has kept him trying. He says that if I make him drop this one friend, then next time it will be another friend and then another.
> 
> He again keeps focusing on how it's not sexual - "she has no figure" "your boobs are bigger" etc like he isn't hearing me at all.
> 
> He insists that I am first on his list. But he is first on hers. He doesn't believe that, naturally. She doesn't have time to reach out to other people if she's calling him morning, noon and night. He won't even take a break from his friendship.
> 
> I am pathetic. I am desperate not to lose the father of my child over this.
> 
> I asked that he not call her and include her in plans when he goes home- he refused.
> 
> I asked that he tell her she needs to back off and stop calling him with her problems- he wants to be available for her if she's in trouble.
> 
> I asked that he not be alone with her in any circumstance- he argued that it was stupid that he should need a chaperone.
> 
> They apparently haven't spoken in several days. He said I "frightened her" when I spoke to her on the phone. He was right there. I was crying over my crumbling marriage and asked her to find another support system. When she tried to offer marital advice I said "I'm not comfortable having this conversation" and got off the phone. I didn't threaten her. I didn't call her names. I just blubbered for 4 minutes like a fool.
> 
> But yeah, I'm the bad guy here. I asked my husband to take a break from his friend after she finally crossed the line. I had asked him for months to tell her not to call in the middle of the night. I have asked him for months to tell her to find help closer to home. She crossed the line when she started lying and crying to him. She crossed the line when she started coming after me with "I know your there, tell him to call me!" when he didn't respond right away.
> 
> My husband won't give up his friend. He claims innocence, says I'm the most important person in the world, cried when I said I can't just accept it.


I am so sorry. I do feel your pain. It hurts to see you so tormented by this OW (and she IS the OW - make no mistake about it). It just isn't fair to you, because now you have a big decision to make. Fold or Fight. It sadly is that simple. To Fold would be that you suck it up and accept it, and it certainly doesn't appear that this is the best solution for you or your marriage. The other option is to Fight, which means that you have to bring out the "big guns" to protect your marriage. Your H is unwilling (so far) to do this for you.

The "Big Guns" simply means that it's her or you. No compromise. If he wants to continue the friendship with her, he must leave you. You will accept nothing less. He either leaves the marital home to think about it, or you do. There is no room for her, especially once the baby is born.

As to her "common law husband" that you mentioned in your first post. What is his position on this? Is he aware of how much she depends on your H and how much it hurts you? Is it possible that he could add some input into this to keep his "wife" away from you H?

You "frightened" her? Apparently not enough to turn her into a big girl and stop calling your H. This EA runs deep. Way too deep. It's all or nothing. You are his wife. You are having his child. You want it over. You want your H to yourself. She is not family, never was, and never will be. Your H needs a new project, and not this piece of work.

I wish there was a magical way to "poof" her out of your life, but there is not. Your H won't do this for you, which leaves the only alternative in your court. You have the full support of strangers here, who would not tolerate such a person involved in our own marriages. I sincerely hope that you find the strength to act to save your marriage. I fear that if you "fold", this will get much, much worse.


----------



## Astonefeather

I appreciate all the input and advice more than I can express in words.

Since posting a couple of hours ago, he has gone to Home Depot and bought supplies for a project he was going to do for me 6 months ago. He's working on it now. He says he just wants me to be happy. He says he'll cut all ties with the OW and mentioned a couple other things that make me miserable that he wouldn't change. Silly little things, but they add up and one big thing that should have made me walk out the door over 2 years ago. 

I asked if he could really promise those things and still move forward without resentment. He said he would try.

I don't know at this point how much of what he said is sincere and how much of it is him trying to fix it quick before I pack my bags. 

If he finishes this project - he's known for starting things and giving up after about 2 hours - I will believe he means to try in other areas as well. If he gets flustered and throws in the towel or takes a 6 hour video game break, I will assume he was trying to win my affections with a valiant display of puffery. 

If he keeps to his word, it will still a long time for me to trust him again in certain areas. I know he's expecting him to promise the moon and the stars and have me swoon at his oaths of loyalty and affection, but I simply can't just forgive and forget after such a nightmare. We'll see.


----------



## survivorwife

Astonefeather said:


> I appreciate all the input and advice more than I can express in words.
> 
> Since posting a couple of hours ago, he has gone to Home Depot and bought supplies for a project he was going to do for me 6 months ago. He's working on it now. He says he just wants me to be happy. He says he'll cut all ties with the OW and mentioned a couple other things that make me miserable that he wouldn't change. Silly little things, but they add up and one big thing that should have made me walk out the door over 2 years ago.
> 
> I asked if he could really promise those things and still move forward without resentment. He said he would try.
> 
> I don't know at this point how much of what he said is sincere and how much of it is him trying to fix it quick before I pack my bags.
> 
> If he finishes this project - he's known for starting things and giving up after about 2 hours - I will believe he means to try in other areas as well. If he gets flustered and throws in the towel or takes a 6 hour video game break, I will assume he was trying to win my affections with a valiant display of puffery.
> 
> If he keeps to his word, it will still a long time for me to trust him again in certain areas. I know he's expecting him to promise the moon and the stars and have me swoon at his oaths of loyalty and affection, but I simply can't just forgive and forget after such a nightmare. We'll see.


I sincerely wish you the best.

Off topic: Even though it's not part of your discussion here,would you please come back and tell us when the baby is born? "Auntie Survivorwife" will be waiting to hear the good news.


----------



## Maricha75

Astonefeather said:


> He wants the three of us to sit down and talk. He says that her advice over the years about our relationship has been what has kept him trying. He says that if I make him drop this one friend, then next time it will be another friend and then another.


If her advice is what kept you two together, then he was relying on HER too much. Shocking, her advice gets him to stay there, gets him to think she's this great person. All the while, waiting to make her move. The advice SOUNDED good to him, because it came from her. Had she advised him to call it quits, he likely would have, right then and there.



> He again keeps focusing on how it's not sexual - "she has no figure" "your boobs are bigger" etc like he isn't hearing me at all.


And.... boobs mean what, exactly when he isn't hearing what you are saying? Absolutely NOTHING!



> He insists that I am first on his list. But he is first on hers. He doesn't believe that, naturally. She doesn't have time to reach out to other people if she's calling him morning, noon and night. He won't even take a break from his friendship.


No, if you were first on his list, he wouldn't jump every time she calls, sobbing over some stupid, made up emergency that only HE can fix.



> I am pathetic. I am desperate not to lose the father of my child over this.


No, HE is pathetic because he refuses to see the truth.



> I asked that he not call her and include her in plans when he goes home- he refused.


Of course he refused... he needs his fix.



> I asked that he tell her she needs to back off and stop calling him with her problems- he wants to be available for her if she's in trouble.


And yet, he claims you come first? Riiiiiiight!



> I asked that he not be alone with her in any circumstance- he argued that it was stupid that he should need a chaperone.


Right, and YOU shouldn't have to REQUEST such a thing...and yet, you need to. Funny that.



> They apparently haven't spoken in several days. He said I "frightened her" when I spoke to her on the phone. He was right there. I was crying over my crumbling marriage and asked her to find another support system. When she tried to offer marital advice I said "I'm not comfortable having this conversation" and got off the phone. I didn't threaten her. I didn't call her names. I just blubbered for 4 minutes like a fool.


They haven't spoken? How does he know she was "frightened"? If she was REALLY afraid, she would back the fvck off! Like, when you first voiced concern.. No, she is playing the martyr..."poor me, I'm losing my "friend" because his wife caught onto my true motives"



> But yeah, I'm the bad guy here. I asked my husband to take a break from his friend after she finally crossed the line. I had asked him for months to tell her not to call in the middle of the night. I have asked him for months to tell her to find help closer to home. She crossed the line when she started lying and crying to him. She crossed the line when she started coming after me with "I know your there, tell him to call me!" when he didn't respond right away.
> 
> My husband won't give up his friend. He claims innocence, says I'm the most important person in the world, cried when I said I can't just accept it.



Again, you have caught onto her motives. He's an idiot for feigning ignorance. If you TRULY come first with him, he's be willing to give up this needy b!tch. But you don't, so he won't.

Now, you have to play the "her or me" card.. or live with this ho attached to your husband. If you say "her or me" DO NOT BACK DOWN! My husband has female friends and I have male friends. The difference is he and I are BOTH friends with these people, and they are happy in their marriages/relationships. NOTHING even REMOTELY suggestive in the exchanges, and we are completely open. We don't run to OPPOSITE sex friends for relationship advice, unless it is the pastor/pastor's wife or parent figures we have known forever. I wish you luck, and you know you have our "ears" when you need us. And, you can PM me anytime.

ETA: Saw your update AFTER I posted this. I concur with survivorwife... there are a few "aunties" and maybe a few "uncles" who would like to know when the baby is born.


----------



## Astonefeather

I will gladly keep you guys posted on the baby! I'm due mid-September and I'm getting bigger everyday.  Thanks again for all your help and advice!

The OW texted my husband twice over the weekend. She was supposed to be out of town and we were supposed to go up and visit his mother and other friends. The OW apparently got home early if she left at all and immediately contacted my husband to try to see him. He didn't reply as far as I can tell. We ended up staying home anyway so she wouldn't have gotten to see him regardless.

My husband spent all weekend working on his project. I eventually joined him and we did a lot of work together. I'm weak and awkward these days (pregnant and 105 degrees, it's a wonder I survived!) and he made me rest a lot, but it was a great team building exercise and we got a lot accomplished. As long as he really does cut ties with the other woman, I think we can move forward. It will take a LOT of time and I will probably be insecure about this for months, but I'm willing to work towards trusting that this issue is resolved. 

If it comes up again in any way, shape or form I'm out. I am going to go to therapy on my own as my husband still refuses couples counseling. I decided to give it until the new year to make any huge decisions unless there is a major issue in the next few months. I will give therapy a try and I will give my husband time to prove himself and keep his word. I will also see what parenthood does for us. Maybe having a child to tend to will help him realize that there just isn't room for a constantly needy "friend" when his family is looking to him to be there. Or maybe he'll run screaming into the OW's arms, but I don't feel that will be the case. Regardless, New Years is my time frame to see if this will work out for us.

Thanks again for all your words of wisdom, experience and advice! I hope I can report back that we are a happy, healthy family soon!!


----------



## survivorwife

Astonefeather said:


> I will gladly keep you guys posted on the baby! I'm due mid-September and I'm getting bigger everyday.  Thanks again for all your help and advice!
> 
> The OW texted my husband twice over the weekend. She was supposed to be out of town and we were supposed to go up and visit his mother and other friends. The OW apparently got home early if she left at all and immediately contacted my husband to try to see him. He didn't reply as far as I can tell. We ended up staying home anyway so she wouldn't have gotten to see him regardless.
> 
> My husband spent all weekend working on his project. I eventually joined him and we did a lot of work together. I'm weak and awkward these days (pregnant and 105 degrees, it's a wonder I survived!) and he made me rest a lot, but it was a great team building exercise and we got a lot accomplished. As long as he really does cut ties with the other woman, I think we can move forward. It will take a LOT of time and I will probably be insecure about this for months, but I'm willing to work towards trusting that this issue is resolved.
> 
> If it comes up again in any way, shape or form I'm out. I am going to go to therapy on my own as my husband still refuses couples counseling. I decided to give it until the new year to make any huge decisions unless there is a major issue in the next few months. I will give therapy a try and I will give my husband time to prove himself and keep his word. I will also see what parenthood does for us. Maybe having a child to tend to will help him realize that there just isn't room for a constantly needy "friend" when his family is looking to him to be there. Or maybe he'll run screaming into the OW's arms, but I don't feel that will be the case. Regardless, New Years is my time frame to see if this will work out for us.
> 
> Thanks again for all your words of wisdom, experience and advice! I hope I can report back that we are a happy, healthy family soon!!


I'm looking forward to the good news! 

Sounds like your H just may have potential! It's good to learn that he is doing things around the home, with you, as a family. Do men go through a "nesting" phase? Anyway, it could be that he's a bit of a stubborn sort. Won't do what you want, but will consider your wishes and decide for himself (saving face). You could be winning here without even knowing it (yet).

I have a feeling that if this trend continues, she will be history (at least I hope so).

I'm looking forward to hearing if he continues to "nest" with you and pushes this OW to the back of the line.


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## Astonefeather

Well, time for an update. 

Good news first- I'm due in 7 weeks and the baby is ready to go! Head down, a good weight/size and active all the time. It's so close I'm getting scared because if Braxton-Hicks are any indicator, labor is going to be mighty unpleasant. 

The bad news is that my husband and his friend have reached out to each other. Both had promised not to be in communication with each without me being present. I guess they assumed I would want to have a pow-wow of some kind, but I don't. I'm trying to focus on the baby, I'm in therapy (marriage counseling) by myself because my husband refuses to go and I'm trying to work through all the issues that this "other woman" situation has caused.

So no, I didn't want to all three of us talk it out anytime soon. I noticed about 10 days ago that my husband "liked" a post on her Facebook page. It was such a tiny thing that I more or less ignored it, but I noticed. Then, on the 25th she called him. He missed the call and she left a very brief message that he has ignored so far- I didn't listen to it, because he would see that I had done so when the little message flag went away. I occasionally check in on his activity online and on his phone. So she called, but he ignored it, which is as good as I can expect.


HOWEVER, he is going home this weekend for a friend's wedding. He was excited for the opportunity to see friends since he hasn't been up there since this whole thing started. I am not going. For many reasons. Primarily because I can't police him forever and also being this pregnant makes it REALLY difficult to travel. It turns out that the day it was decided he was going up there alone, he contacted 7 friends telling them he was going to be in town and wanted to see who would be available to hang out. One of the 7 was the other woman. He included her in the invitation just like nothing had ever happened.

In less than one month's time he has decided for himself that despite everything that's happened, he should still get to do what he wants. I'm sure he'll rationalize it that she'll just be part of the group and it won't be just the two of them, but that's not how I see it. He contacted her behind my back so he knows that I won't approve. He doesn't want to get in trouble, but he wants to do what he wants to do even though I'm literally in therapy over it. Even though I've told him that if her friendships means that much to him, I can't stay.

I had decided to give our marriage until the first of the year to make any major decisions. Part of me knew he would make it a point to see her when he could, but I can't say that I've accepted it. I just knew it was inevitable. To contact her to hang out at his very first opportunity was pretty depressing to say the least. My sister is going to trail him this weekend. As silly as that might sound, I decided that if he spends a lot of time alone with her and/or spends the night as her house (the singular request I made initially that started this whole thing off), then I will be moving home to have my baby with my family. I will declare a trial separation. He's welcome to be a part of the baby stuff, but I can't just stay in this house with a man that cares absolutely nothing about me if it isn't convenient to him.

I just upped my therapy sessions to twice a week.


----------



## Wanting1

I think you'll find this thread to be interesting reading:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/51337-girlfriend-dosnt-like-my-friend.html

He was mad at his live in girlfriend for making him (after 5 years) choose between her and his best friend (girl) who he apparently spent all his nonsexual free time with. Now the best friend wants to marry him and have his babies.


----------



## Kasler

Hes having a huge emotional affair and the biggest symptom of an emotional affair is the denial one is having an emotional affair. 

A marriage is a union between 2 people, not 3. You should not be coming in 2nd place to your husband in priority.

She has no business in your marriage, relying on the father of you soon-to-be-born child as a pseudo husband. 

He needs counseling, BADLY.

He'll attempt to appease you and apologize when he messes up but if he doesn't understand why its a problem he is only going to keep doing it again and again and again because in his mind its just you fussing over nothing. 

Put your foot down and get him to come in to counseling because hes not gonna see whats wrong with what hes doing unless someone other than you is telling him.

He might just be thinking it's you being pregnant and having mood swings that will pass.(which is why he waited for it to 'blow over' and contacted OW a month later)

If you can, have him read this thread because it seems like hes unknowingly trying to flush his marriage down the toiler because of his friend.

^ Also that thread above is very similar to your situation. Guy didn't want to leave his friend that was a girl. It made his wife feel terrible and insecure and then they broke up. As soon as he told his friend about the break up his 'just a friend' instantly wanted a relationship with him. 

Don't wait for this to happen, quash it now!


----------



## survivorwife

Wanting a Strong Marriage said:


> I think you'll find this thread to be interesting reading:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/51337-girlfriend-dosnt-like-my-friend.html
> 
> He was mad at his live in girlfriend for making him (after 5 years) choose between her and his best friend (girl) who he apparently spent all his nonsexual free time with. Now the best friend wants to marry him and have his babies.


:iagree:

This ^^^^^

I was thinking of the OP while reading this other thread. So familiar, and we can actually read the results of the "friendship" in regards to this other story. Turns out that the "friend" (in that case) wants more than a friendship, and the "gf" (in that case) was correct and her instincts were sound. The OP (in that case) had no idea until "it" hit the fan.

So yes, OP, I believe that your instincts are sound and that sadly you may have to do something extreme to wake your H up, since increasing your counseling sessions isn't alerting him to your very real concerns. I'm glad to know that you do have a support system in place, and that you and the pregnancy are doing well.

We are still here for you.


----------



## mestalla guy

Its heartbreaking reading this from the viewpoint of what my gf must have felt like, hits home how horrible I have been
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Astonefeather

All along he seems to have zero comprehension or acceptance of any wrongdoing on his part. 

When I first tried to put my foot down and he took his communications with her underground, he did express the sentiment that pregnancy and hormones are to blame. He wanted to keep their communication discreet until I had a chance to "cool off." The fact that I have expressed a passing distaste for their close friendship for years was never acknowledged.

He can only see this as my problem, not his. He feels justified in his maintaining the friendship and has told me to my face that there is nothing I can do about it. 

He refuses counseling completely and without compromise. He is utterly convinced that my only goal is to change him as a human being. He can't accept that the therapy is for both of us and our marriage. Our communication skills are lacking and it leads to unhappiness. I never expressed any desire to change him, I just want him to meet me in the middle on the little stuff and to hear my side of things without taking it as an attack on the more important things. 

He gives as much as he feels he should. He punishes me when I have misbehave. He recently cut off the AC without a word. He never touches the AC so I thought something was wrong with me when I felt sick as a result. Fevers and pregnancy are a VERY bad combination so I was scared and took my temperature and prepared to call the OB. He went to work feigning concern over my discomfort. He didn't acknowledge that he had done anything wrong and he claimed he felt just fine when I asked if he was feeling too hot. I actually spent a big part of the day in bed with the fan on me and a cloth on my forehead. I eventually checked the thermostat and found the AC turned off and then temperature in the house was 85. At 8 months pregnant, I am uncomfortably warm when the temps are at 70, so 85 was absolutely sweltering. I offhandedly mentioned it a couple days later. He said he did that because my sister (who was in town visiting) was too cold. Which is really funny, because this happened before she arrived. He got the timing wrong on his lie.

I never laid down the law with him because I always assumed I could. I thought he respected me and that I could say "enough is enough" at any time if a line was truly crossed. When the line was crossed back in June and I put a SINGLE LIMIT on his freedom for the first time (I asked that he please not stay at her house when he goes home to visit friends), he became furious and refused without hesitation. That was the eye opening moment in all of this for me. I thought I had some say in things so I waited far too long to assert myself.

The whole thing is a mess and I wish so badly that he would choose me. But the trust is gone. It's pretty likely I will be leaving him and having my baby at home with my family. The only response I have gotten when I told him that he would simply have to choose his family or his friend was threats to fight for the baby. I would never keep him from his child and it was hurtful that his response to my plea was a threat to take me to court. 

I imagine we will formally separate and he will then MAYBE acknowledge that he can't just have his way without consequence. He will have to agree to counseling and probably to just stop going on trips home by himself altogether if he wants to keep his family. He honestly doesn't see anything wrong with what he is doing and he lashes out against me when I defy his will.


----------



## Astonefeather

Thanks for the continued support. I did read the thread about the girlfriend who didn't like the "friend" and the results that followed.

The way it started out sounds so much like my husband that I cried. He honestly doesn't understand why he can't have it both ways. 

The last thing I want to do is leave him when he doesn't understand why. He thinks I'm jealous, insecure and hormonal. He doesn't understand that I'm his wife and his partner. I should have a say in what he does if I feel it's a threat to our marriage. But since he disagrees that it's anything more than friendship, he feels entitled to carry on however he pleases.

I spoke to the friend after they continued to communicate in secret. I put it out there that she cannot be a part of our lives right now. Naturally she feigned confusion and innocence saying how she had no idea I felt that way. She claimed she didn't want to be a "home wrecker" (her words) and volunteered to cease all communication with my husband unless I was personally involved in the conversation as well. Three weeks later, she called him. Not a shocker by any stretch, but at least I can say I tried. She can never again say she had no idea how I felt. She can never play the victim in any of this. She's officially an active participant.

To find out after investing 7 years in a relationship that your feelings never really mattered is a huge blow. So many other issues have arisen as a result of all this that it's almost comical. The timing is just terrible. I am not really surprised that he's making an effort to include his friend in this weekends' plans, but it hurts more than I thought it would to have my suspicions confirmed. He couldn't even wait until after his child was born. He took the first possible opportunity to reach out to her. And yet he still doesn't see how this might end his marriage.

So, I will sit at home this weekend pregnant and alone. He will go see his friends and have a great time. My sister will check in on him secretly and drive past the friend's house to see if his car is there. My family is on standby to drive down and help move me home next week if need be. I wanted to give us a shot as a family until New Years, but I can't live like this. Even if he doesn't see her this weekend, the fact that he tried makes me want to walk out now. I don't know. 

I know I will leave next week for a trial separation if he stays at her place. But anything short of that, I just don't know. I wonder if he will take her to the wedding. I wonder if they will have a meal just the two of them. I'm sure they will want to talk about me and the situation at hand. Sucks to be me but at least now I can start making decisions for myself without worrying about his feelings.


----------



## freckleface

Please do think of yourself first here, and not him. Thats easy for me to say and very hard for you to do - I know as I'm going through a different but similar situation.

You have needs that you've expressed that aren't being met. You need to decide which of those needs have to be met and which are deal breakers for you. If he is seeing her and that was a dealbreaker for you - you should follow through and go for your own mental sanity. Lean on your family and friends who are showing you the concern you need. Stop allowing your happiness to be tied to his actions - or at least try to start..I'm still working on that one a lot myself.


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## karole

Honey, I do not have any advice, but just wanted to say that I am so sorry for this entire situation that you are going through. This should be one of the happiest times of your life. You should not have all this stress and heartache anytime, but during your pregnancy, especially your first, is just horrible. Your husband is an immature ass and the OW is dispicable. She can't be much of a human being if, after you stated your concerns to her, ignores your requests to stay out of your marriage. Speaks volumes for her integrity. I hope your husband wakes up and acknowledges and rectifies his mistakes. Astonefeather, I sincerely pray that everything does work out for you. You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Unsure in Seattle

This thread makes me mad every time I read it.

Astone, I'm so very, very sorry. The other woman is a rotten person and it seems that your hubby isn't much better. I can only hope that he is SO deluded by the fog that you can shock him out of it; that somehow this isn't his true character on display.

It seems that you've done everything you reasonably can, save leave. 

Please remember that, come what may, you have untapped resevoirs of strength. You are stronger than you know, and you'll get thru this, with or without him.


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## NextTimeAround

Maybe it's time for Astone to do a 180.


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

Anything she does is going to be chalked up to "hormones."


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## Astonefeather

My husband leaves tomorrow for his trip back home. He has contacted several people trying to make plans to see as many of them as possible. He has called and texted the OW, in addition to his Facebook message to her on 7/28, in attempts to see her sometime this weekend. 

Naturally, when we speak about the trip, her name hasn't come up once. Which only serves as a reminder that he doesn't care about my feelings at all. I truly believe that he doesn't see anything wrong with seeing her, but he also knows he will be "in trouble" if he gets caught going against my wishes. I think he sees me as "Mean Mommy" these days. 

It's so very frustrating. Especially when I already see his rationale if he gets caught.

1) If he stays at her house= "I was drunk and couldn't drive" or "her husband was there"
2) If he spends time alone with her= "She was the only person available for lunch"
3) If he spends time out and about with her with other friends= "We weren't alone, there were a bunch of people hanging out!"

Basically, anything short of blatant sexual activity is not cheating in his mind and my "irrational jealousy" and pregnancy related hormones are to blame according to him.

I never put my foot down on his relationship with this woman because I always thought I could if I needed to. The fact that I just now discovered that I never had a leg to stand on is what hurts the most. He doesn't respect me, he never has.


----------



## survivorwife

Astonefeather said:


> My husband leaves tomorrow for his trip back home. He has contacted several people trying to make plans to see as many of them as possible. He has called and texted the OW, in addition to his Facebook message to her on 7/28, in attempts to see her sometime this weekend.
> 
> Naturally, when we speak about the trip, her name hasn't come up once. Which only serves as a reminder that he doesn't care about my feelings at all. I truly believe that he doesn't see anything wrong with seeing her, but he also knows he will be "in trouble" if he gets caught going against my wishes. I think he sees me as "Mean Mommy" these days.
> 
> It's so very frustrating. Especially when I already see his rationale if he gets caught.
> 
> 1) If he stays at her house= "I was drunk and couldn't drive" or "her husband was there"
> 2) If he spends time alone with her= "She was the only person available for lunch"
> 3) If he spends time out and about with her with other friends= "We weren't alone, there were a bunch of people hanging out!"
> 
> Basically, anything short of blatant sexual activity is not cheating in his mind and my "irrational jealousy" and pregnancy related hormones are to blame according to him.
> 
> I never put my foot down on his relationship with this woman because I always thought I could if I needed to. The fact that I just now discovered that I never had a leg to stand on is what hurts the most. He doesn't respect me, he never has.


So, according to your H, the only purpose you serve in his life is to meet his sexual needs? And this OW, she is there for companionship and friendship; something that is not part of your role as his wife? Is that how he sees things? I am so sorry that he still doesn't see what is right in front of him, a loving wife. Shame on him.

1. If he stayed at his own home with you, this would not be an issue.

2. If he had lunch alone, that would be a problem? When you are not with him, does he really need another person for company?

3. "A bunch of people hanging out" - has he grown up yet?

I know I'm preaching to the choir as it is painfully obvious that you get it. As for solutions, I believe that you mentioned earlier about staying with your family or, in other words, leaving the home. Perhaps if he actually came to realize just how much he stands to lose in keeping this OW around, he might finally "get it". He is obviously emotionally involved with this OW, and she knows it and doesn't care. He can't really be that dense can he?

I suppose that sometimes you just have to draw the line in the sand and that he must face real consequences in order to actually see what this is doing to your marriage. You've told him. He's not listening. It may be time to take action, however the baby and your well being come first, so please take care of yourself first. I believe that, once you have taken a hard line, he will choose you but unfortunately you have to be the "grown up" and teach him that certain lines should not ever be crossed.

I hope you find some comfort in knowing that you are not wrong and it isn't the hormones responding to all of this. This OW is coming in between you and your H and he is refusing to see it. He is being selfish and immature and stubborn, but is it worth it to him to lose you over it? Is he willing to take that gamble? Perhaps you need to find out.


----------



## NextTimeAround

survivorwife said:


> I hope you find some comfort in knowing that you are not wrong and it isn't the hormones responding to all of this. This OW is coming in between you and your H and he is refusing to see it. *He is being selfish and immature and stubborn, but is it worth it to him to lose you over it? Is he willing to take that gamble? Perhaps you need to find out.*


Yes, I recall that my exH in his some of his parting words told me that the more I asked him to do something / to no do something, that made him want to do the opposite all the more.

Astone, you may have to accept that you have entered that loop with your husband, even as your --his and your -- baby is coming along. 

Don't be surprised at how determined someone is to _show you_.


----------



## RDL

Hello,

I am surprised your counselor did not suggest a written explanation to him of the underlying factors in this situation. 

As you mentioned he is likely clueless as to what you and the OW are doing and why. 

Whenever you discussed this with him even if you made an effort to be calm the negative energy you have came out and he felt it like an attack. Now he does not know a lot about women's nature so not understanding what's going on he rationalizes it as hormones. Furthermore he feels it as an attack on his ego that he has to give in to unreasonable demands. His ego is completely opposed to giving in and thus you reached a deadlock. His response to a deadlock situation is to weasel out, quite common. He feels manipulated, the choice me or her is not really a choice at all as he sees it, it's you trying to manipulate him into one choice.

I suggest a step in a positive direction is firstly to inform. Approaching the situation as giving him information for a decision that is his to take. 

I would suggest a mail from your counselor explaining to him in plain man talk terms women's nature and the underlying reasons for both her and your actions. 

Do it fast too. I am concerned the situation is about to explode in the next few days. 

If your counselor is not available let me know and I will attempt to write it.


----------



## Astonefeather

Thanks for the continued support. I'm actually gearing up to call a lawyer to discuss my rights. Unfortunately, I have no real friends here as we've only been here for a couple years. All my family is back in Virginia. There are probable legal complications if I try to go home since he has equal rights to the baby once she's here. 

I would never keep him from his child in any way. I have no doubt he will be a loving father to our child. But I do worry that if this goes to court at any point, the fact that I took the baby anywhere without his written consent will be an issue. Through all of this when I've tried to explain that this particular issue is a non-negotiable for me, his only reply has been to assure me that he will fight for the baby.

Somewhere in his head he is convinced that I will lawyer up and keep him from ever seeing his child. That I will raise her to hate him and make into some kind of monster. This is so far from the truth that I couldn't believe he would even make the accusation. I want our child to feel secure that we both love her, wanted her more than anything else in the world and are so happy to have her in our lives. There is no hatred here, nothing malicious. I just can't stay with a man who doesn't love me enough to put my needs ahead of his wants. It was suggested by a family member that if I leave him, he might very well speak ill of me to our child so he is concerned I am equally petty. I don't know. 

I have tried writing it down for him in a formal letter, I have tried talking about it calmly. I have tried talking about it with emotion. I have spoken to the other woman twice now- once by force and once by my own accord when my husband was at work. Whether he chalks it up to hormones, jealousy or insecurity the fact that he won't even consider my feelings at all in the matter means that he will never love me the way I need to be loved.

I got him to a point where I thought he understood, but then not even a month passes and he is trying to see her. I explained my issue is that she is in a long-term relationship with another man and she still calls on him to be her support. I have heard him say "I will be in the man in your life" for this, that or the other when she calls crying. They talk to each other, but not to me. They make jokes about how I need electro-shock therapy because I'm apparently crazy like my mother- so he speaks of my family to her as well. 

I would be uncomfortable with this friendship even it was with a man, but the fact that it's with a woman that has been in his life for so long and has been his only real confidante for 18 years makes it just too much for me to take. Part of me feels a lot of guilt for coming between them if that makes any sense since he relies on her so heavily and I want him to be happy. That is why it's really taken so long to say enough is enough. I honestly let it go to the breaking point because I didn't want to feel like a monster.

There is nothing I can do that hasn't been done, but I'm in therapy for our marriage struggles just to feel like I've exhausted all options. I've been asking for couples counseling for the past couple of years and he has refused at every turn. 

He's told me that if something is wrong with the baby -and I'm talking ANYTHING, be it now or in six years when she starts school- he will hold me accountable. What's really funny/sad is that stress is the number one thing in my life that is likely to cause complications. He is the sole source of my stress and he couldn't even play nice until the baby comes. I'm glad I'm not worth lying to or hiding things from (no passwords have been changed, etc) since I'm better off knowing now than in a year that they are still best buddies behind my back. But really? He couldn't just stay away from her until my due date? Really? 

This forum has been invaluable to me in terms of support and guidance. I want to thank all of you and hope that I can continue to come here and unload some of my concerns. The bright side in all of this is that it's happening now and not in two years. If my baby is going to be raised by separated/divorced parents, I want that to be "normal" for her. Taking her into consideration will hasten any decisions at this point because I don't want her to feel loss if we split up after she's gotten used to having us both present at the same time. It's a lot of emotion right now that the best thing that's ever happened (the baby) is happening at the exact time I'm going through the worst thing that's ever happened (EA). The focus is on the baby and my sanity. Coming here helps a lot. Formulating a plan with the help of you all, my family and my therapist helps more than I can say. I feel like I have some control over this and that I'm not "crazy" for feeling this way.

Thanks


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## survivorwife

Astonefeather said:


> Somewhere in his head he is convinced that I will lawyer up and keep him from ever seeing his child. That I will raise her to hate him and make into some kind of monster. This is so far from the truth that I couldn't believe he would even make the accusation. I want our child to feel secure that we both love her, wanted her more than anything else in the world and are so happy to have her in our lives. There is no hatred here, nothing malicious. I just can't stay with a man who doesn't love me enough to put my needs ahead of his wants. It was suggested by a family member that if I leave him, he might very well speak ill of me to our child so he is concerned I am equally petty. I don't know.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks


Just a thought, but.....

I wonder if the OW put these thoughts in his head.

You see, I am currently separated from my WH, who happens to have several women who he talks to on his cell phone daily. Still does. I have no idea what thoughts they put in his head about me, based on "his version" of me. But I can tell you this much. His actions have been downright cruel, as if I was the one who cheated on him. I don't believe that on his own he would have thought of those things, but I do strongly believe that he is acting on what the OW whisper in his ear. And yes, since he is the one doing the acts, I hold him responsible. 

So you see, these might not be "his" thoughts, but "her" thoughts being whispered in his ear behind your back. Those OW - all of them - are poison to a marriage.


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## vi_bride04

survivorwife said:


> Just a thought, but.....
> 
> I wonder if the OW put these thoughts in his head.
> 
> You see, I am currently separated from my WH, who happens to have several women who he talks to on his cell phone daily. Still does. I have no idea what thoughts they put in his head about me, based on "his version" of me. But I can tell you this much. His actions have been downright cruel, as if I was the one who cheated on him. I don't believe that on his own he would have thought of those things, but I do strongly believe that he is acting on what the OW whisper in his ear. And yes, since he is the one doing the acts, I hold him responsible.
> 
> So you see, these might not be "his" thoughts, but "her" thoughts being whispered in his ear behind your back. Those OW - all of them - are poison to a marriage.


Similar situation with my stbx and his girls at work...doesn't really have a thought on his own but if he hears something from any of them, it is the truest of the truth out there....even if it is about me or his marriage.


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## survivorwife

vi_bride04 said:


> Similar situation with my stbx and his girls at work...doesn't really have a thought on his own but if he hears something from any of them, it is the truest of the truth out there....even if it is about me or his marriage.


From the way the OP described what her H thinks will happen if they split up, it seems rather obvious that he has spoken to someone else about his marriage, the baby, and what "could" happen in the event of a separation. WTF? What married man with a baby coming even thinks about the end of the marriage at a time like that? Unless (as you and I pointed out) the OW is poisoning his mind.

Are they (H & OW) talking about the OP's "hormones"? How emotional she is at this time? How dare HE even bring that up with the OW!

My heart goes out to the OP and I am having problems posting some of these thoughts because the last thing I want to do here is to hurt the OP. I'm on her side 100% and if she were my bff, I would try to gently as possible convey the same thoughts and hope that I'm wrong.


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## RDL

Do you still have the formal letter you sent? And would you mind letting us take a look at it.

The wording you used may have been difficult for him to rationally process. Especially if there are points there that trigger his ego.


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## Astonefeather

The letter I wrote was focused more on the overall theme that he does not respect me as a person.

I started with a brief synopsis of the "deal breaker" issue regarding the emotional affair:

Regarding Fidelity- "I won't cite examples from over the years. But you know that your close affection for D and her need for your administrations of support have been a source of discomfort for me since we were dating. I felt it wasn't my place to say anything and for a while I thought D was a good friend of mine as well. I was mistaken on both counts. As your wife, the mother of your child and the woman to whom you have sworn vows, I am now saying that I wish for you to distance yourself from D. If your friendship with this one person is worth more to you than your wife's feelings and concerns that certain lines have been crossed, then I know where I stand. And that should be the end of things right now before there is a child involved."

I went into a couple of other issues regarding his violent temper and his unwillingness to communicate.

The letter was more of a means to an end summarizing the issues in our marriage that need work. It was a plea for him to join me in counseling and an explanation that this marriage is failing and I can't fix it alone. There is no blame, but we need to prioritize each other or this isn't going to work. 

I reached out for a compromise things calmed down for a little while. He helped me around the house, spent more time with me, etc. But here we are again in under 4 weeks time.

We've needed help for a long time but we've scooted along in the meantime with a major fight every few months to sort of "let it all out"- the realization that he was meanwhile having what I now consider to be an EA on the side is what tipped the scales. I can't abide by infidelity. I want him to see the issue, to understand that I'm not trying to alienate him from his friends. But whether he "gets it" or not, I can't just sit back and let him do this to our family. She was there first, he feels a strong loyalty to her, and my trying to separate them from each other has only caused drama that seems to only bring them closer together as they unite against me.

He spoke to her on the phone Wednesday night for 11 minutes. He deleted this record off his phone, but I checked the phone records online last night and there was her number. So, today I will see him off. I cannot make him want to stay and begging him to choose me- well, I tried that. He's going to do what he wants and too bad for me if I don't like it.

My therapist suggested that maybe he wants me to leave him. That he's unhappy too and doesn't want to be the "bad guy" who dumps his pregnant wife for another woman/his freedom/whatever it is he really wants but won't tell me. I don't really want to be the "bad guy" either, but he's forcing my hand with this one.

I thought that if I leave him, I might write his family a letter. Something really simple and non-specific but clearly explaining that I left over another woman and not whatever crap he spouts when they ask. I know I will be painted in a negative light to his family and friends, but I need them to know that I was willing to work on it, to try, that I was in therapy trying to fix things but he was cheating on me. I worry that everyone will tell our daughter that I'm crazy, unstable, or evil in some way when she spends time with his side of the family. If they know there was infidelity, maybe they will hold back the judgement a little bit. If we can't figure this mess out, I want there to be a stable environment for our child to grow up in.


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## survivorwife

Astonefeather said:


> I thought that if I leave him, I might write his family a letter. Something really simple and non-specific but clearly explaining that I left over another woman and not whatever crap he spouts when they ask. I know I will be painted in a negative light to his family and friends, but I need them to know that I was willing to work on it, to try, that I was in therapy trying to fix things but he was cheating on me. I worry that everyone will tell our daughter that I'm crazy, unstable, or evil in some way when she spends time with his side of the family. If they know there was infidelity, maybe they will hold back the judgement a little bit. If we can't figure this mess out, I want there to be a stable environment for our child to grow up in.


:iagree:

Absolutely yes! Do the letter with an explanation of how this affair is affecting your relationship. Save a copy for your attorney, as evidence that you did not simply abandon the home nor are you overreacting. Write the letter with that in mind, citing facts in which you conclude that you can't stay in the marriage while he is involved with the OW. If your posts here are any indication of your ability to write such a letter, you will do just fine.

I wrote a similar "time line" email to my WS before I left, which clearly lists, item by item the things he was doing and how he was hurting me. I gave him the opportunity to address the issues, but he did nothing. Then I left him. He tried to say now (through his attorney) that I "abandoned the marital home", but my email, along with the evidence I had gathered, told a whole different story. I left him because of "extreme emotional abuse" and am able to prove it. All of it helps if you will be needing spousal support. Child Support is non-negotiable.

Please continue to keep us posted. Stay strong and take care of yourself. It's good to know that your own family is behind you.


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## RDL

While your letter likely did a good job of articulating your feelings it must have been difficult for him to read and understand. 

Men's egos are more fragile than they seem and some of the wording in the letter because it's hurtful triggers a defensive reaction when read. 

I would suggest another attempt from a different angle. 

I would like to explain to him with some background the natural rivalry between women. How deep down most women feel that quality men are rare and are prepared to fight for them. 

How most women have the capacity to be subtle when going towards their goals. Even if his friend seems innocent she is fully aware of the underlying situation. 

How most men are not focused on these emotional undercurrents and that his friend is getting a feeling of empowerment from taking time away from you. Deep down she wants what you have, she resents not being good enough to get him. 

For you as a woman the situation is obvious, he may be none the wiser. It's not the pregnancy hormones. It is a very common situation of women's rivalry. 

I suggest that the letter not be written by you. Another man he trusts would be a good approach. His father, one of his friends.

Think about it. Given your recent communication you are both digging in your heels and are on the verge of a split up. Before you do would it not be wise to make sure he has the proper information to understand what's going on?

Yes you are in your full rights to feel upset, yes you are right to demand no contact of him. However on a psychological level sometimes when demanding it does not matter if it's right or wrong, the emotional response is a refusal.


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## Astonefeather

At one point I did try to explain these things but he saw it as "irrational jealousy" because he cannot fathom that his friend would be devious in any way. He defends her honor and integrity and calls me spiteful for thinking ill of her. He said something akin to "you might be petty and jealous, but she's not the type to play games." Basically, he called me a liar. 

I don't know that there is a man in his life that I could go to with this. It would mean intimately involving yet another third party into our marriage. I am not close to any of his male friends or relatives. His father and I do not get along and I can guarantee he wouldn't reach out to his son to save his marriage. My husband respects my father, who is aware of the situation in part, but they are not close. I don't think a letter from my "daddy" would really make an impact. But it's a thought.

My mother offered to contact him to explain the female mind, but my husband hates my mother. Her words mean less than mine.


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## Unsure in Seattle

No- you articulated your feelings, more than once. he can't hide behind some kind of mask of "I'm a man and I don't understand how this works" nonsense.

You've given him chance after chance, and he's dismissed your feelings time after time. You've articulated your problems in clear, plain language if that excerpt is anything to go by. 

I think the "I'm sorry but that's the last straw" letter to the family is a good idea if that's the route you take.


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## Astonefeather

Thank you for that. I will wait and see how this weekend goes and decide from there what to do.

I suppose at this point, I will be leaving for certain. I have an appointment with an attorney to discuss my rights since crossing state lines with our child will likely require paperwork. 

If he spends the night at her house- whether her husband is there or not- I will leave now. Heck, there can be a big slumber party with 30 people and I will still pack my bags. Because that was the ONE thing I asked of him in the very beginning before I realized the extent of their relationship. I think I can legally go wherever I want without his consent as long as I'm still pregnant. Once the baby is here, I think I have to remain in our state of residence unless there are legal documents in place.

I might leave now regardless because even if he doesn't see her at all this weekend, it wasn't for lack of trying. I am so unhappy and I feel so betrayed that just sitting here watching him act like nothing is wrong while I go to therapy twice a week just makes me feel worse. It isn't fair to the baby for me to be this stressed all the time. Leaving would be stressful but at least I would be at home with my family instead of here with a man who doesn't respect me. I feel really isolated.

My husband makes it hard because he does petty things to hurt me like turning off the AC, hiding things I use daily like my hair brush, etc. Just really weird little things that feel a lot like threats. He's immature and he feels like I'm the bad guy for making an issue out of things. But the AC thing was super petty. He never touches it, not in 7 years of being together has he messed with it. But it's 90 degrees or higher each day and pregnancy makes it feel like it's 1000 degrees. He turned off the AC and then acted sympathetic when I didn't feel well. He convinced me it was just me and I had to discover for myself that the house was 85 degrees when I went downstairs for something in the middle of the day. I was literally in bed monitoring my temperature because a fever during pregnancy is a big, scary deal. So yeah, really petty and really unnerving responses. He thinks I'm in therapy to change him and refuses to go for any reason. And he knows that I'm talking to my mother and sister for support through this. I don't advertise anything to him, but he's not stupid.

Anyway, I will see how this weekend goes, speak to an attorney about my rights regarding the baby, and go from there.


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## Wanting1

Astonefeather said:


> My husband makes it hard because he does petty things to hurt me like turning off the AC, hiding things I use daily like my hair brush, etc. Just really weird little things that feel a lot like threats. He's immature and he feels like I'm the bad guy for making an issue out of things. But the AC thing was super petty. He never touches it, not in 7 years of being together has he messed with it. But it's 90 degrees or higher each day and pregnancy makes it feel like it's 1000 degrees. He turned off the AC and then acted sympathetic when I didn't feel well. He convinced me it was just me and I had to discover for myself that the house was 85 degrees when I went downstairs for something in the middle of the day. I was literally in bed monitoring my temperature because a fever during pregnancy is a big, scary deal. So yeah, really petty and really unnerving responses.


There is something really diabolical and scary about this. It's so manipulative that I don't think I could ever feel safe being around a person who did something like that to me. 

Even if he doesn't see the friend this weekend, I would seriously consider getting out. That's a snapshot of what your life could be like in the years to come. Him making you feel crazy because he is manipulating your environment. Do you want your daughter raised in that environment? If he isn't willing to work on something like that, to fix what is wrong with him (and there *is* something wrong with a man who would do that to his pregnant wife), what choice do you have?


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## survivorwife

Astonefeather said:


> Thank you for that. I will wait and see how this weekend goes and decide from there what to do.
> 
> I suppose at this point, I will be leaving for certain. I have an appointment with an attorney to discuss my rights since crossing state lines with our child will likely require paperwork.
> 
> If he spends the night at her house- whether her husband is there or not- I will leave now. Heck, there can be a big slumber party with 30 people and I will still pack my bags. Because that was the ONE thing I asked of him in the very beginning before I realized the extent of their relationship. I think I can legally go wherever I want without his consent as long as I'm still pregnant. Once the baby is here, I think I have to remain in our state of residence unless there are legal documents in place.
> 
> I might leave now regardless because even if he doesn't see her at all this weekend, it wasn't for lack of trying. I am so unhappy and I feel so betrayed that just sitting here watching him act like nothing is wrong while I go to therapy twice a week just makes me feel worse. It isn't fair to the baby for me to be this stressed all the time. Leaving would be stressful but at least I would be at home with my family instead of here with a man who doesn't respect me. I feel really isolated.
> 
> My husband makes it hard because he does petty things to hurt me like turning off the AC, hiding things I use daily like my hair brush, etc. Just really weird little things that feel a lot like threats. He's immature and he feels like I'm the bad guy for making an issue out of things. But the AC thing was super petty. He never touches it, not in 7 years of being together has he messed with it. But it's 90 degrees or higher each day and pregnancy makes it feel like it's 1000 degrees. He turned off the AC and then acted sympathetic when I didn't feel well. He convinced me it was just me and I had to discover for myself that the house was 85 degrees when I went downstairs for something in the middle of the day. I was literally in bed monitoring my temperature because a fever during pregnancy is a big, scary deal. So yeah, really petty and really unnerving responses. He thinks I'm in therapy to change him and refuses to go for any reason. And he knows that I'm talking to my mother and sister for support through this. I don't advertise anything to him, but he's not stupid.
> 
> Anyway, I will see how this weekend goes, speak to an attorney about my rights regarding the baby, and go from there.



Yes, you could leave now and stay with your family in their State. Then, you could also consult with an Attorney in their State. If you remain there at your family's home, and have the baby in that State, you could potentially have the right to sole custody in the sense that he could not "demand" that you come home. Generally, as the mother of a newborn, he would not be allowed to remove the child from your care, but of course he would have the right to visit the baby. An attorney could explain your rights better than I could, but leaving now, before the baby is born, sounds like a good choice.

In the meantime, keep your documents in a safe place for a quick departure. Have plenty of cash on hand and gas in your vehicle. He is starting to sound rather evil (diabolical) so it might be wise not to let him know of your intentions. Trust your family to help you with what you need done.

And you are right. He has done nothing to help you with the stress that he created. You have the right to protect yourself and the baby.


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## Kasler

Seems like you're married to a manchild. 

Emotional virgins with no boundaries.

You need to leave. A man should be proverbially covering the ground his pregnant wife walks on with rose petals. Not leaving her to sweat in bed.

You need some time away from him, and should consider divorce. Manchild's only think about themselves and thats not going to change anytime soon.


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## Jibril

Astonefeather said:


> *They make jokes about how I need electro-shock therapy because I'm apparently crazy like my mother*- so he speaks of my family to her as well.
> 
> My husband makes it hard because he does petty things to hurt me like *turning off the AC, hiding things I use daily like my hair brush, etc*. Just really weird little things that feel a lot like threats. He's immature and he feels like I'm the bad guy for making an issue out of things.
> 
> *He turned off the AC and then acted sympathetic when I didn't feel well. He convinced me it was just me* and I had to discover for myself that the house was 85 degrees when I went downstairs for something in the middle of the day. I was literally in bed monitoring my temperature because a fever during pregnancy is a big, scary deal. So yeah, really petty and really unnerving responses.


Astonefeather... I think this is a much bigger issue than you are acknowledging. A *much* bigger issue. I don't want to alarm you, but your husband is gas-lighting you _literally_. He's so caught-up in his affair that he's actually messing with your head, to convince you that everything you're feeling is the product of your confused and warped mind. 

It's not petty, or immature. What he's doing is far, far worse. Cruel, deliberate, and _evil_. He is deliberately harming your mental health (and your physical health) by screwing with your mind the way he is doing. I suppose it's good that you have this forum as an outlet to give you advice and feedback, but I'm afraid you are in a very precarious relationship. And you say he has a violent temper on top of all this?

Whatever you're doing to get out of that situation, I'd urge to do _faster_. Again, I don't want to frighten you too badly, but the sooner you're away from him, the better. _Forget_ your relationship and your past history with him - _he's endangering your wellbeing_.


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## vi_bride04

Jibril said:


> Astonefeather... I think this is a much bigger issue than you are acknowledging. A *much* bigger issue. I don't want to alarm you, but your husband is gas-lighting you _literally_. He's so caught-up in his affair that he's actually messing with your head, to convince you that everything you're feeling is the product of your confused and warped mind.
> 
> It's not petty, or immature. What he's doing is far, far worse. Cruel, deliberate, and _evil_. He is deliberately harming your mental health (and your physical health) by screwing with your mind the way he is doing. I suppose it's good that you have this forum as an outlet to give you advice and feedback, but I'm afraid you are in a very precarious relationship. And you say he has a violent temper on top of all this?
> 
> Whatever you're doing to get out of that situation, I'd urge to do _faster_. Again, I don't want to frighten you too badly, but the sooner you're away from him, the better. _Forget_ your relationship and your past history with him - _he's endangering your wellbeing_.


Please read and take this post to heart!!!!!


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## Astonefeather

I will talk to my therapist about gaslighting. She had brushed off is actions as immaturity and also an attempt to push me away so that I would leave him and he could be "guilt free" should we divorce. Which I do agree might be the case. He cries when I talk of leaving, but does nothing to build back trust. I thought he was trying at first, but it lasted about a week.

I just reviewed other parts of the letter I wrote him back in June when things got really bad. It's a little out of context since the letter was two full pages long, but the parts that apply to this situation right now are:

"A discussion with a resolution vs no discussion and no resolution. Why do I keep bringing up certain topics? Because they are extremely important to our marriage and to my happiness and we have yet to resolve things. Without any word from you I am left to assume that you don't intend to do anything. D will start calling again in two weeks or whenever and you will make sure to prioritize her when you go up to [home]. I am prepared to take serious action should this be the case, but just sitting here waiting for it to happen is torture. Especially since you brushed off my concerns as unfounded, hormonally driven insecurities and have yet to acknowledge my feelings as valid. I trust you not have sex. I trust that you love me and our child. I do not trust that you will give a second thought to your pregnant wife at home when you're out having a good time and Dana is there. You won't think about how hurt and lonely I am that D gets to be included in the gang when you're out having fun because she's so awesome and loves a good time and a good drink. But since you argue with me and get defensive, I have no reason to trust that you are really hearing me on this. Since you say "I don't want to talk for 30 minutes" and then take a nap when that time is up, I am left with nothing. I am alone in this marriage. I want to fix things that are broken. I want to plan a future. I want to take a vacation and spend time with you, not watch you bounce around while I stay home and wait.

I love you. I love you more than anyone else. I take the good with the bad. Despite our ups and downs, I want to be with you. But parenthood will make everything harder. We need professional help. We need to prioritize each other more. We need to make a plan and stick to it. Or else this isn't going to work.

I won't even ask you to leave your home. I will leave. I will go home and live with my parents and have my baby alone. I will tell our child how much daddy loves them even though he's not around. Yes, I need medication, but I need your love and support more. Medication just numbs the pain of feeling unloved. The more you leave me alone, the more alone I feel."

Rereading this made me realize that nothing has changed. It's true, the OW took 3 weeks to call (I had guessed 2) but the rest is pretty much spot on. He did indeed make every attempt to see her during his trip up there. He called, texted and facebooked her. According to his phone records, he has been trying to reach her tonight. Whether they meet up or not, he's sure trying to spend time with her. This letter was read together and discussed. I'm sure he will act shocked and horrified if/when I leave, but this is beyond ridiculous. 

I will be seeing a lawyer this week, I have an OB appointment and two therapy sessions. I will not advertise my intentions in any way. My family is on stand by to come down and help me move my things and also to protect me should he react with rage/violence/threats, etc. I just don't know what's happened to the man I married. Looking back the signs were all there and I feel foolish for ever marrying him.

My mother makes me feel better because she says that even though all this is happening, that it must be because God really wanted this particular baby to be born into our family at this exact time. And the only way to get the timing right for her arrival was for me to marry my husband and stick it out until she could make her appearance. I'm not religious in the least, but it really feels a lot better to know that there is something wonderful about to happen despite all the heartache.


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## Kasler

^ Yes, please do this ASAP. 

That marriage is not a good one, and you would be absolutely miserable 5-10 years later while you play babysitter and he is out partying with Dana all the time.


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## moxy

There seems to be a lot of gas lighting going on by your H. Unchecked, that could be dangerous. Turning off the A/C while his pregnant wife roasts and then feigning ignorance and even sympathy while watching her suffer does isn't what a loving person would do; it's not just passive aggressive -- doesn't that compound the possibility of dehydration and danger to your life and that of the fetus? Not that 85 degrees will kill you, but messing with your head like that indicates devious behavior. Sounds like he wants you to suffer because you're getting in the way of his freedom. My H is also a gaslighter and manipulator, so I know how this can get to you. Just think about whether or not you two can be an effective team working toward shared life goals if one of the two of you is sabotaging those efforts. I think he wants out and doesn't want to be the bad guy. Let him go. If he loves you AND wants to be with you, he will make it work by making an effort to keep you in his life rather than expending energy to push you out if his way by underhanded and covert means.

File for divorce. That sends the message that this is unacceptable. It shouldn't be a last resort in your case but something you do now.


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## ing

I am very late to this thread and reading it my blood ran cold as it played out in the way it so often does. Do not take on ANY of the blame or believe that you are in any way controlling . That is typical gas light behavior. It will destroy your emotional self.

Stop considering him at all. Look after you. Look after the baby.


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## Acabado

Astonefeather, just wanted to tell you you are going to be OK. Dropp the dead weight for good.
I've been reading your thread from the very beginning and a really want to punch your husband in the face so badly...


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## Astonefeather

Still in therapy twice a week. The therapist suggested that he has Narcissistic Personalty Disorder. Looking into it, all of his aberrant behaviors fit into this concept neatly. The rage, the punishments, the manipulations, the infidelity, the inability to empathize, etc. 

I meet with an attorney tomorrow afternoon to discuss my rights before making any big decisions since there will be a child involved in the next 6 weeks or so (I'm due mid-September) and I don't want to jeopardize future custody issues. In the meantime I am being extra submissive and catering to his needs to keep the peace.

I asked him one last time join me in therapy. Just one visit would be helpful according to my therapist. He says he needs to think about it.

He went back home and made EVERY attempt to see the OW. She made herself available- replied to texts and calls and then said "no, I can't see you, I'm busy/tired/sick/etc" she's playing hard to get I guess and loving the drama and attention. She even went out into town just to be spotted so she could say in person to one of my husband's others friends that she was "unavailable and please don't tell him you saw me" - which obviously the friend thought strange enough to mention to my husband who then told me about it.

My husband actually complained to me how frustrated he was that she wouldn't see him. Alluding to the conversation we had back in early July when I called her and asked her to back off he said, "I don't know what you said to her, but she avoided me all weekend" - he knew what was said, I told him all about it. I offered to discuss it again and didn't want talk about it. He just wanted to be upset about what he calls "stupid, emotional nonsense." He might as well have punched me in gut it hurt so bad that he wanted me to feel sorry for him about it. He still sneaks around when he tries to call her, but he let me know on Friday, Saturday AND Sunday while he was away that he was trying to get her to come play.

So, it's not looking good. All of what he's doing fits in the Narcissism spectrum which is helpful to me in many ways, but still doesn't solve anything in the long run. I am making preparations to leave- organizing files and accounts (it's all in my name and I need to switch things to him, etc), taking notice of where sentimental items are currently located (quilts my grandmother made, things like that), etc. If/when I leave, my family will come down and be physically in the house before I say anything since his rage response is so sporadic. 

If he goes to therapy, makes an effort, drops the OW and openly allows me to check up on his email/text/facebook/phone accounts, and has ZERO outbursts of any kind, then I will stick with my plan to stay until the first of the year. I don't really think this will be the case, but my mother pointed out that if I leave now he can kick me off insurance and we can't afford the thousands of dollars in medical bills when I deliver in the next few weeks. Obviously, that isn't the driving force here, but it is something to consider. Going bankrupt with medical bills and then having to hire an attorney for divorce would ruin my family financially. 

So much heartache that could have been avoided. This pregnancy has made it so much worse because his narcissism won't allow him to accept that I have needs that outweigh his. People always ask about me and how I'm doing, they want to touch my belly and talk about baby stuff. Basically, it's not about him until the baby is here and he's the daddy. Right now it's still all about me and my needs and he cannot stand that- hence the punishments. Then the OW, fearing she was losing her "boyfriend" to fatherhood latched on even harder than ever before which prompted me to say something. It all spiraled out of control because my husband "needs" the validation of the OW since she doesn't care about the baby, she only cares about him. So he gets a HUGE perk from being her hero, especially when she knows he's leaving his pregnant wife all alone just for her. They both feed off each other. So, here's his lazy wife hogging all the attention and trying to take away his only friend who treats him like he sh*ts golden nuggets. So, of course he's going to rebel against that perceived injustice and make my life hell. In his mind, I deserve it.

Coming here really helps my stress. I don't have any friends or family that are physically close by to share this with and bottling it up makes it worse. So thank you all for your time and advice.


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## freckleface

Wait, he complained to you that he couldn't see the OW? Wow.

Just wow.

I'm really sorry that you're going through this and hope that you find the strength to do what you need to do to take care of yourself.

Please prioritize yourself over him. You and your baby need your attention more than that d-bag does.


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## Kasler

Not if you leave.

WHEN YOU LEAVE


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## survivorwife

3leafclover said:


> Just a quick note regarding the above. Yes, he will have equal rights to the baby once she's here, but if you're going to move, I would do it now. That he's already talking about things like "fighting for the baby" is worrisome. Right now, there is legally no baby and he can't stop you from moving. Once the baby is born, if you separated from him and attempted to move, you could find yourself stuck living near him indefinitely if he files for custody/visitation in your current jurisdiction...unless you give up custody in order to move. It happens. And it's much more likely to happen if he's aggressive about the issue, which it sounds like he might be.
> 
> In general (not sure if there are any state exceptions), the state the baby is born in has jurisdiction for any custody matters. There's no waiting 6 months to establish residency or anything like that because the child isn't considered to have lived in another state even if you spent your pregnancy in another state up until the day you delivered.
> 
> If you move before the baby is born, you should be able to file for temporary custody in your new state immediately after the birth, hopefully beating him to the punch. He would have to go to Virginia for the proceedings. By my understanding, you could not be forced to move back with the child. However, if he filed for divorce in your current state before YOU meet residency requirements for Virginia and can file, yourself, you may have to handle divorce through your current state, but that's not as big a deal.
> 
> Sorry to interject all this into your thread. I know you don't want to keep your child away from him and I'm not in any way suggesting that, but the thought of you potentially getting stuck far away from your family support system as a single mom for 18 years just makes me shudder.


:iagree:

Hopefully the OP's attorney will explain this to her, as this is my understanding as well. Although her H will always be the child's father and have visitation rights, if she gives birth where her parent's live instead of the marital State, she will get the upper hand in the actually custody issue.


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## badbane

From reading this whole story the only thing I can surmise is the you married a man who was already married to someone else. I am sorry that your WH can't let go of this woman. I think that there is some obvious codependency here. The reason she is stepping up her game is because your WH seems like her big back up plan. She know she has him and is keeping him on the hook. However she won't commit to him. It is sad really that your WH can't see how the OW is playing him. I hope that you stay strong and I wouldn't even ask at this point for pulling back. If he wants to stay married it is 100% No contact or bust. This woman is toxic to him and is likely playing you both right now. She wants him single and when she gets tired of her common law man. She'll shack up with him. I am so sorry.


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## Astonefeather

The legal summary sounds about right from what I've read online. My meeting with my attorney is at 4pm this afternoon. Followed by an appointment with my therapist. Then it's home to make dinner and keep the peace because he knows I'm unhappy and I'm afraid his temper might flare if I don't keep making an effort to keep him happy. He's been nice lately, bringing my flowers, talking to my baby in my belly, and rubbing my back at night, etc. It's not what I need or what I've asked for in this marriage, but it's harder on me emotionally to accept his kindness and then leave him. 

My husband agreed last night to attend therapy with me- I think he agreed to one session- but it's better than nothing. I invited him to join me as an "expert witness in living and dealing with me" - anything to get him in the door without pressure to discuss himself or our marriage. I had asked that he go with me next week. But he said next week was too soon for him and he needed to think about when he would go.

Of course, I'm 35 weeks pregnant and there will be a therapy lapse after the baby comes. I will try to get back in as soon as possible, but I imagine I will miss a week or two. I wanted my husband involved sooner than later in the therapy aspect of things. But he's stalling already so I take that as a clear sign he doesn't really intend to go. 

And yeah, I also agree that it looks like the OW sees my husband (what does "WH" stand for?) as her back up option. She really only upped the ante after we got married and even more so when I got pregnant. She wants him without baggage.

I completely agree that, even if it is not sexual now, all she has to do is spread her legs and that will change. My husband is not the type to look for sex elsewhere, but this particular "friend" is a definite exception. I wouldn't be completely shocked if they had already had sex, but I can't find any evidence of it at this point.


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## NaturalHeart

Astone, I am so sorry you are in this position. This has got to be the worse feeling ever to be pregnant and dealing with this. I think you will be stronger when you have the baby. 

Please dont stay with him simply because you dont want her to have him because her needy behavior and him jumping to save her already gives her the benefit of HAVING him.

I will have to read up on the rest of this. My friend went through the same thing and she wanted to trust her husband. Her husband talked about how his confiding in his friend made him see he wanted to work things out with her but he failed to mention what happen with he and the friend after they finished the face to face conversations.


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## Astonefeather

Update: I left.

I was planning on staying until after the baby was born. I was crying every night and my soul comfort was a little tuxedo cat named Mowgli. 

This past weekend was my baby shower and I was home with my family and a few close friends. While I was away, Mowgli was hit by a car and killed. I have cried more for that cat than I have for my failing marriage.

That was the last bit of heartache for me. My family went with me and moved me home to my family. 

My husband acted completely shocked and was very upset that I was leaving him out of the blue. I reminded him that I have wanted therapy for our issues for months. I wanted to work it out. The EA with the OW was my reason for giving him the "her or me" ultimatum back in June. I told him that I said I would leave if he couldn't bear to be apart from his "friend" and it turns out he couldn't. And I STILL stayed because I was hoping he would wake up one day and want to work it out in therapy. 

Mowgli's death was the last bit of heartache my body could handle. I couldn't go home to a man who now openly interacted with his "friend" as if the past two months of tears, begging, demanding, pleading for him to love me never happened. I needed that little cat more than I could have realized. I'm 35 weeks pregnant and he sees nothing wrong with hurting me emotionally. You would think he would at least love his child enough to keep her mother happy so she could be born safely. But no, he couldn't do that. He wanted to be with her and his family didn't matter.

I feel sad for him because the truth is I had confided everything in this "friend" a few months ago- back when I thought she was my friend too. I called her in July to tell her that her presence in our lives right now was too much for our marriage to withstand. So she knew exactly what he stood to lose. She doesn't care about me and she certainly doesn't care about this baby, she only cares about my husband and having him under her thumb. 

Now that I have left, she might very well lose interest in him. He was forbidden fruit and now he's back to being a normal guy. And he lives four hours away so it's not like she gets any perks from flaunting her new conquest. Or maybe she genuinely cares for him and wants to be with him. But she still living with her elderly "lover" who is much more well off financially than my husband. I don't know. I guess it's not my problem anymore.

I can't possibly imagine that she really was "just a friend" if she would stand by and do/say nothing while his wife left him. She knew what he was losing and she allowed it happen without a word. In my parting words I told him to reach out to someone else, anyone else, to talk to about some of this. This "friend" does not care about his happiness. He is now all alone in North Carolina with no friends, no wife and no idea that I was actually going to follow through with my "threats" to leave. 

The saddest part was while I was talking to him. Telling him I was leaving because he was constantly in contact with the OW. He started to deny it and in that exact moment the phone rang and it was her. He had tears in his eyes telling me he wasn't cheating while the woman he had promised to "take a break" from was calling him. After all, I was supposed to be out of town all weekend so they could call each other openly, right?

So, I'm at home. My world has fallen apart. This is the worst thing that has ever happened. I can't believe I am 31, having a child and starting my life over from scratch at the same time. Selfishly, I worry that I will never find another man to love me. That fear is likely why I stayed as long as I had.

I love him. I will always love him. I only needed him to choose his wife and child over one single friend. He forced my hand, but it still is the last thing I wanted to do.


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## survivorwife

Prayers of support coming your way Astonefeather.

If it's any consolation at all, you did the right thing. And you and your baby will be just fine. And yes, when you are ready, you will find someone that loves not only you, but your baby as well. There are loving people "out there" that will put you first above all others.

So sorry too that losing your cat had to be the point in which you reached to decide it was time to leave.

And yes, you are probably right about the OW. She is obviously self-centered and has no feelings for anyone other than herself. Your H is a fool to let you go on such a false premise. My STBXH still remains in contact with two of his OW, going by his cell records. What an empty life the Hs have to rely on OW who are not emotionally vested in the course of their lives. But, if they choose those OW, they deserve them.

I hope this forum is giving you strength and that you feel the genuine concern that most of us "strangers" have for you at this time in your life. Although I don't "know" you, I have read your words and felt your pain and offer whatever comfort and friendship I can to you and hope that you know that your story has touched many of us here.

Your story continues. You are with your family and they love you unconditionally. Your baby will need you and I have no doubt in my mind that you will be a wonderful and loving mother and will do what is in the best interested of the baby.

As for your H, one of two things will happen. He will hit rock bottom and finally see the light and will do anything in his power to make things right. Or he won't. Either way, you have shown that you stand by your word and that you are a lot stronger than he or anyone else knew you could be.

Wishing you all the best and hope that you keep in touch. You have friends here. Take care.


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## vi_bride04

survivorwife said:


> Prayers of support coming your way Astonefeather.
> 
> If it's any consolation at all, you did the right thing. And you and your baby will be just fine. And yes, when you are ready, you will find someone that loves not only you, but your baby as well. There are loving people "out there" that will put you first above all others.
> 
> So sorry too that losing your cat had to be the point in which you reached to decide it was time to leave.
> 
> And yes, you are probably right about the OW. She is obviously self-centered and has no feelings for anyone other than herself. Your H is a fool to let you go on such a false premise. My STBXH still remains in contact with two of his OW, going by his cell records. What an empty life the Hs have to rely on OW who are not emotionally vested in the course of their lives. But, if they choose those OW, they deserve them.
> 
> I hope this forum is giving you strength and that you feel the genuine concern that most of us "strangers" have for you at this time in your life. Although I don't "know" you, I have read your words and felt your pain and offer whatever comfort and friendship I can to you and hope that you know that your story has touched many of us here.
> 
> Your story continues. You are with your family and they love you unconditionally. Your baby will need you and I have no doubt in my mind that you will be a wonderful and loving mother and will do what is in the best interested of the baby.
> 
> As for your H, one of two things will happen. He will hit rock bottom and finally see the light and will do anything in his power to make things right. Or he won't. Either way, you have shown that you stand by your word and that you are a lot stronger than he or anyone else knew you could be.
> 
> Wishing you all the best and hope that you keep in touch. You have friends here. Take care.


Well said.

I'm so sorry ...stay strong and true to yourself, Astonefeather.


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## Unsure in Seattle

I truly believe that you did the right thing.

PS: I don't believe in gods or karma or anything but the world that we can see in front of us...

But this awful woman calling right in the middle of him pleading and saying that he wasn't talking to her...

Well, sometimes you just have to smile a little bit.


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## Acabado

> The saddest part was while I was talking to him. Telling him I was leaving because he was constantly in contact with the OW. He started to deny it and in that exact moment the phone rang and it was her. He had tears in his eyes telling me he wasn't cheating while the woman he had promised to "take a break" from was calling him. After all, I was supposed to be out of town all weekend so they could call each other openly, right?


Now my wishes to punch him have become something worse. He's to a rude awakening. Go NC with him. Talk to a lawyer and out the ball rolling. I'm so glad ou have your family to take care of you.

You are going to be OK.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2

I'm so sorry you're going through this. That being said you're going to be much better off when this man is no longer your husband.


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## karole

ASF, how are you doing?


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## NaturalHeart

I'm so sorry - -


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## Astonefeather

Update- Sorry for being silent for so long after I left. I have had a lot to sort through. 

I'm living at home with my family, my clothes are still in trash bags around the room. I just don't have anywhere to put them yet. Hopefully this week I will get a dresser or something. We've been focusing on getting stuff for the baby. I'm nine months pregnant and due sometime in the next four weeks so baby takes priority. But things are coming along. My only concern is that I've lost 7 pounds since this happened. I have an appointment at my new OB today for some tests. But the baby is still active so I've been assured that she will probably be just fine. 

When I left I took all of the remaining pets. Mowgli had just died and I was the primary caretaker for the animals. Plus, my husband was upset and I just didn't trust him to remember to take care of them. I also just needed them with me to know they were safe. 

Naturally, my family isn't able to take on me and my child if I come with cats and 60 pound dog, so I've had to let them go. That's been really hard. I've been fortunate that they've gone to family members so far so I can still see them and ask how they are doing. But the dog ended up going back to my husband yesterday.

My mother and I met him at the state line. The dog is thrilled to go back to him and he LOVES his dog so I'm not worried. But it was rough. My husband and I walked and talked for about an hour. We've been in communication here and there since I left. He says he loves me, misses me, is sorry and will do anything to get me back. It wouldn't change anything at this point, but I was a bit surprised he said all these things but hadn't made a single overture towards reconciliation. He was in extremely close contact with the OW- she was counseling him!!- he hadn't even called the therapist or done anything to win me back. I think he thought that simply apologizing but doing nothing would actually affect me in some way.

He has proclaimed his undying love for me and for our child, but he still expects me to respect his relationship with the OW. Even yesterday he tried to say that he didn't think he should have to give her up because my reasons for needing her out of our lives were "illogical." 

He also doesn't get that the OW was just the final straw. The marriage was never solid, I was delusional. I thought that even though we had ups and downs he would do anything for me. I was horribly mistaken. He's pointed out all the things I have done wrong in the marriage which I do accept responsibility for. But the difference is that I wanted to fix things. I have been trying to make up for my mistakes, going to therapy/couples counseling alone, making changes in my behavior towards him, etc. I was willing to do anything to save the marriage and he was willing to do nothing. 

After yesterday I feel a lot better. I currently have no feelings for him. I see him for what he is. I want him to be as involved as he so chooses in the life of our child. He can be a part of the birth and take his paternity leave and visit with the baby. But in terms of winning me back... well, that will take such an amount of dedication on his part that I don't see it happening. I even told him so. I told him that I cannot guarantee I will ever go home, but he needs to make some changes NOW if he wants a chance. He dropped the OW. She was quite upset and forwarded me some emails between the two of them. There are many other things that need to change, but the OW was the one that was still hurting me daily.

I need to see him make an effort so that I can stop hating him. But I will continue to focus on the baby, get back in shape after she's born, find a new career and start over.


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## Unsure in Seattle

I'm at a loss to explain how he possibly thinks that you're (still) the bad guy in this. Yes, yes, fog and etc... but wow.


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## vi_bride04

It took my STBXH almost 2 months past DDay and a month after I moved out for him to slightly admit that "maybe" he did something wrong. Prior to that I was overreacting and the bad guy. 

EAs are like a fog machine on full blast.....ugh


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## Unsure in Seattle

I apologize on behalf of dudes everywhere.


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## survivorwife

Thank you Astonefeather for the update! It's always good to read that you are well and among family. You are a strong woman and, as time passes, you will know for a fact that you did the right thing by leaving.

So, he says he dumped the OW? Was that before or after she "counseled" him?  The OW in my WH's life "counseled" him too (still do), and it worked out the same way it's working in your situation. So, according to OW in your situation, she was so hurt she forwarded you his emails? She sure does like to stir the pot. Pay her no mind. She is worthless, and probably still has her hooks in him while attempting to hurt you in the process.

I know you will have your ups and downs, but you made the right decision for you and your child. He doesn't get it and never will. The OW will unfortunately always be there for him and he knows it. 

None of us are perfect. We all do things in our marriages that we probably should not have done. And you are right. You took steps toward fixing the problems that you created, and yet he did nothing to correct his end of the deal. Sadly, he is just not into fixing himself for the sake of your marriage. And no matter what you did or did not do in the marriage, you did not deserve to be treated the way he did with you. You and your baby deserve so much better.

Please continue to update us here as we all care about you and how you are doing with all of this.


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## colotnk

survivorwife said:


> Please continue to update us here as we all care about you and how you are doing with all of this.


:iagree: 

I keep thinking about you and I don't think I'm the only one that does on this forum. Take care of yourself and the baby!


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## Acabado

I'm another one thinking on you.
Positive thoughts you way. You are going to be OK.


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## Acabado

Duplicate.


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## Wanting1

Stone, 
You've definitely been on my mind this week. The last month of a pregnancy is such a challenge. Do what you can to nurture yourself now. That will help the baby and you.


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## Oatmeal

This story was heart-breaking. You absolutely did the right thing in leaving. I believe there is something very wrong with your husband.

When my wife was pregnant with our daughter I became hyper vigilant about protecting her and seeing to her needs. I'm not special, this is how people are supposed to behave. I wasn't the one gaining weight and having to be careful about what I ate. I wasn't the one who was going to have to go through an incredibly painful birth. Etc etc. Certain of her family members gave her a hard time about her choices while pregnant and when our baby was very young, and they irrevocably altered my opinions of them by those actions.

There is something so wrong with a person who will increase the pain that someone is in when they're pregnant like during your AC thing. Your pregnancy should have brought your husband closer to you, not allowed him to cause you distress.


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## Astonefeather

I very much appreciate the words of encouragement. Things are getting better every day. I have a skype session with my therapist tomorrow morning and then I will start looking for a new therapist local to my new home. 

The baby is still doing well, just doing her thing in there. My mother actually admitted the other day that she's glad she gets to have the baby living here. She already worries about the day I move out on my own again and I take "her baby" with me. 

Having a lot of support every day has made everything better. I feel better physically. Apparently a lot of my symptoms were just pure unhappiness- headaches, stomach issues, excessive insomnia, etc- now that I'm in a loving environment I feel a lot better.

It will be complicated when the baby comes as I intend to allow my husband as much visitation as he wants. It's his legal right to do so, but I want to make it clear that he is welcome to be a father to our child if he wishes it. We will not stand in his way. My mother said we should offer him the guest room to stay in for his paternity leave if he wants to stay here. I mostly doubt he will want that, but he's cheap enough to consider it over paying for an extended hotel stay. Or maybe he will stay at home with family or his "friend" because they are about an hour out from my family's home in a neighboring city. It doesn't really matter I guess. 

I saw him on Monday and felt no affection for him. I felt a lot of anger, resentment and even pity. I keep thinking about how sad it was that he cried, but then I remind myself of all the tears I've shed in the past year and I feel less sorrow for him. He had every chance to do right by me. I literally begged him to love me and I got rejected every time. The fact that he didn't truly understand that his actions/inactions had consequences is not my problem. I literally wrote it down for him at one point in my letter and it didn't matter to him.

So yes, I am much better off but it will take some time to adjust to my new life. But baby is doing great and her nursery will be set up this weekend and that's all that matters


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## Astonefeather

I very much appreciate the words of encouragement. Things are getting better every day. I have a skype session with my therapist tomorrow morning and then I will start looking for a new therapist local to my new home. 

The baby is still doing well, just doing her thing in there. My mother actually admitted the other day that she's glad she gets to have the baby living here. She already worries about the day I move out on my own again and I take "her baby" with me. 

Having a lot of support every day has made everything better. I feel better physically. Apparently a lot of my symptoms were just pure unhappiness- headaches, stomach issues, excessive insomnia, etc- now that I'm in a loving environment I feel a lot better.

It will be complicated when the baby comes as I intend to allow my husband as much visitation as he wants. It's his legal right to do so, but I want to make it clear that he is welcome to be a father to our child if he wishes it. We will not stand in his way. My mother said we should offer him the guest room to stay in for his paternity leave if he wants to stay here. I mostly doubt he will want that, but he's cheap enough to consider it over paying for an extended hotel stay. Or maybe he will stay at home with family or his "friend" because they are about an hour out from my family's home in a neighboring city. It doesn't really matter I guess. 

I saw him on Monday and felt no affection for him. I felt a lot of anger, resentment and even pity. I keep thinking about how sad it was that he cried, but then I remind myself of all the tears I've shed in the past year and I feel less sorrow for him. He had every chance to do right by me. I literally begged him to love me and I got rejected every time. The fact that he didn't truly understand that his actions/inactions had consequences is not my problem. I literally wrote it down for him at one point in my letter and it didn't matter to him.

So yes, I am much better off but it will take some time to adjust to my new life. But baby is doing great and her nursery will be set up this weekend and that's all that matters


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## vi_bride04

Your post brings a smile to my face. 

Glad to hear you and the baby are doing great


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## Kasler

I'm glad for you. 

No one should be in a marriage consisting of three people. 

Not that you should, but has he seen this thread yet by any chance?


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## Astonefeather

I started to show him this thread, but I am not ready for him to know about my meeting, the talk of him having narcissistic personality disorder or the snooping just yet. He will likely be angry with me and I don't want that to take away from him spending time with the baby. 

I know I can't make him be a good father, but I just couldn't live with myself if my actions kept him from stepping up to the plate when our daughter is born. I want my baby to have pictures of her daddy holding her and smiling. I don't want my child punished for my actions any more so than she already will be because I left.

I will very likely share this thread with him one day but I doubt it will mean anything.


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## Kasler

Astonefeather said:


> I started to show him this thread, but I am not ready for him to know about my meeting, the talk of him having narcissistic personality disorder or the snooping just yet. He will likely be angry with me and I don't want that to take away from him spending time with the baby.
> 
> I know I can't make him be a good father, but I just couldn't live with myself if my actions kept him from stepping up to the plate when our daughter is born. I want my baby to have pictures of her daddy holding her and smiling. I don't want my child punished for my actions any more so than she already will be because I left.
> 
> I will very likely share this thread with him one day but I doubt it will mean anything.


You're not punishing your child by leaving him. To punish your daughter would be to show her a farce of a marriage. that would impact her ideals on what a functioning marriage should be.

What children see of their parent's marriage is usually how they'll act in their own marriages. 

Sons who grew up with fathers who beat their mothers are one of the worst examples. 

They shed so many tears, cared for their mother so much, and sweared not to be like their fathers, but a lot of them grow up and still end up beating their own wifes one day due to having the ideal 'violence is an answer and its ok' instilled into them since a very young age. 

Many children who go through a messy home-breaking divorce while young, wind up doing the same thing to their own families one day as well. (Theres even some threads on here of women from broken homes self destructing their marriages and families for no real reason, and feeling upset and confused about it)

To punish your daughter would be by remaining in a three person marriage where there'd be a possibility of her growing up unable to ever have a functioning relationship with anyone, due to being born into a home with a foundation of distrust, resentment, and no commitment.


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## Astonefeather

Thanks for that. You're right. I just feel guilty because I never intended for this to happen. But you're right, she's better off with happily divorced parents than unhappily married parents.


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## Kasler

Astonefeather said:


> Thanks for that. You're right. I just feel guilty because I never intended for this to happen. But you're right, she's better off with happily divorced parents than unhappily married parents.


Exactly. :smthumbup:


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## Astonefeather

I've been sending my husband infrequent emails regarding baby updates and other pertinent information. For instance, at this point I don't think he's told anyone outside of his best male friend and the OW that I've left. I had to tell him that I can no longer keep the fact that I'm living back home a secret. People are starting to ask why I'm at home. We're saying because it's the best place for me to be right now and that's it.

The goal is to keep him informed about his child's well-being- something I feel very strongly he should know. It's also so that I am not in any way being malicious or unfair to him. It is not my business if he tells his family or not, but I am not going to pretend we're still together in our marital home when we're not. Again, I am not announcing it in any way but I am not to going to lie either. I've been avoiding communication with his family while on Facebook, but that's about all I can do for him. 

I also told him that, unless he tells me otherwise, I will let him call his mother when I go into labor. Since I don't think she knows yet and I could technically deliver any day now, I figured it just made more sense for him to be in charge of his side of things.

In terms of his responses, he pretty much ignores me. Which is fine. Even though on Monday when we met up and talked he promised to be in communication and keep me posted on the dog, etc I still haven't heard a word from him about anything.

He hasn't told his coworkers and they wanted to throw us a baby shower. Having ignored my email about his child and the status of the pregnancy, he texted me this morning informing me that the baby shower was scheduled for Wednesday afternoon. He had been informed in earlier emails and in person that I have an ultrasound to see if the baby is breech, an OB appointment and then the tour at the new hospital on Wednesday. 

True to form he completely forgets/ignores/dismisses the fact that Wednesday is completely booked with important appointments to ask me to drive all the way back home for a party. I have had issues travelling for a long time. I couldn't even make it all the way home to pass off the dog and pick up a few items from the house. He met at the state line for this reason. It's just another example of how my needs are completely tossed aside so he can have a party in his honor. Although baby showers are supposed to be about the baby, I'm pretty sure he's thinking that it's about the daddy too. Which in some ways, it is. But it's not what he's thinking...

He had originally asked about the baby shower last week. I had said I would go if I was able to make it because his coworkers have been nothing but kind to me and I felt bad for my husband at that point for having to be all alone. He had said he would be telling his coworkers that I had left him. I responded that we would likely not get a party after they found out I had left. He got mad. I had to actually explain to him that they probably won't feel comfortable throwing a party for our family now that we're apart. I assured him that they would still give the baby gifts and congratulate him, but there would not likely be a party. At the time I had said that I would go to the party if they threw one anyway if I was physically able.

But since he has done nothing in the way of making amends or following through with any of the promises he made to me in person on Monday, I am not inclined to put myself out there for him. Plus, I wasn't kidding about the driving. I am NINE MONTHS PREGNANT! Even if I had a chauffeur drive me all the way down there and back (8 hours round trip including all my necessary bathroom stops), I would still find the trip excessively difficult and stressful. I wanted to be kind to him and I do love his coworkers, but I don't know if he's told them anything yet. I don't know if they think I'm up here on vacation or for a specialist. Or maybe he's told them the whole truth and they still want me to attend? Or, what's most likely, they have no clue things have changed and my husband will tell me at the last minute that I'm supposed to lie to everyone about everything.

It's just too much. The only thing he has done is to break up with the OW. The only reason I know he even emailed her was because she forwarded the message to me. And in that message he said three times "it's not what I want" and that I'm essentially making him do it. My favorite part in this letter was this line: "i hope that we can remain friends for many many years, but for right now i cant communicate with you until she says it is okay to do so. you can call me if you like to discuss this, but for now im gonna have to take you off my facebook and take you out of my phone" - even when breaking off contact he still says he hopes to maintain a friendship and tells her that she can keep calling him. What part of "drop her like a rock" is so hard to grasp?

I also asked that he see my therapist (or any therapist), that he communicate with me more about paternity leave, how my dog is doing, etc. He's continued to ignore me. 

My therapist suggested over our skype session that he doesn't accept that this is real or long term. He still thinks that I am going home to him. Which is really funny that he might honestly believe that I would go back when hasn't done a thing to make amends. 

It was also suggested that he's glad to be rid of me. I don't know. I really don't. I don't think he loves me. I think that he loved the idea of me being at home waiting for him and raising his babies. He introduces me as "my wife" instead of by name frequently. Something I didn't realize until recently when someone at his work that I don't know well finally asked my name after not actually knowing it despite him constantly speaking of me at work. He tells his coworkers how much he loves me, how proud he is of me, how he can't wait to be a father, etc. He comes home and ignores me. He tells me about his day and gets on his computer until bed time. When he needs to talk seriously, he calls the OW. When he wants to have fun, he goes to visit the OW.

I think I was in a delusional fog for so many years that I lost myself. I told my story to a friend who was shocked that I would put up with half of the things he's done or said. I didn't strike him as the type of woman who would let a man walk all over her. The funny thing is, I'm not. Or I wasn't when we first started out. Somehow I just started to give up pieces of myself for the sake of making it work between us until I became some sad and abused woman literally sitting at home waiting for him to call. 

Being a single mom starting over at 31 is not at all what I wanted for myself or for my child, but I thank this baby and this pregnancy for helping to save me. I could have taken abuse and neglect for many more years had I not had to think of this baby first. The pregnancy brought out the worst in my husband, the worst in the other woman and the best in me. 

It's still very new and very challenging, but the support that I have now is so amazing I cannot find the words. I hope to be friends with my husband one day. I hope he proves to be a wonderful, doting father. But if not, well that will be okay too. I hope to find real love one day, but in the meantime my daughter will have a wonderful father figure in her maternal grandfather. She will see what a real man is and that love doesn't come with strings attached.


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## Acabado

Forget completely about the babyshower. Stop protecting him. Let him deal the way he preers. It's not your business anymore. Stop giving him more information about out feelings, emotions, wishes, intentions or desires. Stop voluntaring more info. Stop reaching out. He won't get it ever.
Your husbads displays many narcissistics traits. Stop being his supply. Stop being of use for him. You have become acustomed to this as a reaction to his selfishness. He toke adventage of your love. Be selfish, you don't need him.
Focus on you future without him.


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## Maricha75

ASF,

I have to ask this... is there any one of his coworkers that you know well enough to contact yourself? I have a feeling he will make up a lame excuse as to why you won't be at the shower. If it were me, I would call one of them and say that you are at your mom and dad's, 4 hours away, and being heavily pregnant, it isn't feasible for you to attend. He said he is telling his coworkers. I think you are right that he sees this party as being all about him, not just the baby. Really, as close as you are to delivering, the shower COULD have been scheduled AFTER the baby is born. I had one after my oldest was born. I was unable to attend the one my mom planned for me because I had to have my son that day (pre-ecclampsia, had a c-section). But our church had one for us about a month or so after he was born. My point is, I think your therapist (?) is right. He doesn't see this as permanent. He needs a dose of reality. Don't air it on Facebook, but certainly don't HIDE it if anyone asks. Tell people you are separated. That will make it real for him then.


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## Kasler

Even after you moved out of the house, HE STILL WANTS TO BE IN CONTACT WITH HER?!?!?!

This guy isn't even *trying* to understand where his pregnant wife is coming from. 

That kind of lack of empathy is truly ridiculous

I think its time for you to start filing papers for a divorce, or a separation at the least.

Hes completely unappreciative, takes you for granted, and your needs are 5th on his list from the looks of it.

1. His needs

2. Ego

3. OW's needs

4. Ego

5. Wife

If he is treating you this bad now, it would be hell when it comes to raising the child. 

Hes thinking hes just gonna ride out the storm and then get back on deck(OW) as soon as it blows over, show him otherwise.

You need to cut off from him emotionally. Everytime you give him your feelings, pleading it just feeds his narcissistic ego.


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## vi_bride04

Don't you dare go to that baby shower!!! It's too risky for you and the babys health!!


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## Astonefeather

No worries. I won't go at this point.


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## alte Dame

You are very articulate in your resolve and understanding of your situation. This can only be a good sign, I think, for your state of mind going forward & your ability to handle your baby when she comes. I can tell you that, from experience, a new baby is such a different and amazing experience that it can really concentrate the mind. Having to worry about the baby instead of your own personal problems is strangely calming and liberating. (Yes, it's exhausting and endless work, but it helps to focus on what's really meaningful in life.)

Best of luck to you.


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## Astonefeather

Baby update- I had another ultrasound to determine her position since there was concern the little stinker was breech.

But she's looking good. Head down, good heart rate, good activity, practicing her breathing (really cool to see on the monitors!) and measuring at around 7 pounds. It's reassuring to see her doing just fine despite everything else that's happened. I'm hoping she stays put until September, but I won't complain if she comes earlier than her September 17th due date. She's completely ready now at almost 38 weeks so it's just up to her when to make her debut. Being this pregnant is not much fun and I'm ready to hold her in my arms. 

Husband update- My husband hasn't made any strides to reconcile since his promises to "do anything" to get me back. He makes it easier for me to do what I need to do to move on, but I'm still a bit surprised that he has zero ability to follow through on anything. I don't have any intentions to return, but I would have liked to see some effort so I could not hate him for the sake of our child. Because right now I hate him. A lot. For all the years of misery, the neglect and abuse and then an affair that he still refuses to acknowledge. The lack of empathy is on the level of a serial killer and I'm not being insincere when I say that. He honestly has no ability to see this from my perspective and it doesn't concern him in the least. He sees me as attacking him and his freedom and feels I have no right to ask anything of him. He acted so shocked when I left that I thought it was an act. He also has yet to ask about the baby, but informed me that the dog misses Celeste (one of our cats). Which is his way of saying he misses the cat. 

I'm glad I've left. I had no idea how beaten down I was until I entered a supportive environment. I am eating and sleeping again. The headaches and stomach issues are gone. What I thought was pure pregnancy issues was actually debilitating depression. I am so glad I left before this baby was born. She will only know this love and she will never have to see her mother fearful of her father's rage. Or her mother cry because her father is off visiting his "friend" in another state. He can be a part of her life and I will only sing his praises to our child and she will never have to know that he loves himself more than he could ever love another human being.

So yeah. I will keep you posted on the baby when she arrives. My family is extremely excited to get their hands on her. My mother is being overprotective of me and actually called up one of my sisters to come babysit me while she and my father spend the day at the river tomorrow. My father keeps talking about nicknames for her. And my sisters have bought all sorts of things that say "I love my aunt" on them.  It's a bit much, but it's such a welcome change from the "get over it" and "women have babies everyday, you're nothing special" attitude I was getting with my husband.


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## vi_bride04

Sad to hear he puts himself even above his own daughter....what a sad man he is.

BUT on the bright side, you can see that you made the best decision for you and your daughter in the long run. You have a great support system and she will get plenty of love without him!

Thanks for the update, you sound like you are doing so much better mentally 

Oh, ETA - what happened with the whole baby shower thing and his coworkers?


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## alte Dame

Wonderful to hear that you are getting so much stronger.

One side comment, though. I think it's hard to overestimate the cluelessness we can have about the opposite sex. Is it possible your H is getting some completely misguided advice about you? Like, perhaps, 'you need your space, the best thing he can do for you and the baby is to let you cool down & have the baby in peace...' blah, blah? It seems possible that he'll rear his head in a surprising way once the baby comes.


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## Astonefeather

Oh yes, the baby shower. He had a lovely time and sent me a picture of himself opening gifts. His Facebook indicates he even prepared food to take to the event. It was a party in his honor and he's only presented himself as the doting husband and excited father to be among friends, family and coworkers so naturally he had a wonderful afternoon. I have to assume he didn't tell his coworkers as he had said he would a week ago. But maybe he did and he still got his party. I don't know. I just replied that I was happy for him and that he has wonderful coworkers- which he does- and left it at that.

It's possible people have told him to leave me alone, but at the same time I told him exactly what I needed him to do if he wanted a shot at having me home one day. I said something along the lines of "I cannot promise I will come home, but I can guarantee this relationship is over if you continue to do nothing." The things that I asked him to do after I'd left were to do the things I'd begged him to do for months prior. I wanted him to sincerely drop the OW, give therapy a try (I gave my therapist full disclosure to discuss my side of things with him and I offered to pay for the sessions to boot), communicate with me about his plans, schedule, paternity leave, etc and to be there for the baby. If he is still listening to other people's advice over my telling him precisely what I need from him, then that's just a whole new level of idiocy.

So far, he insincerely broke up with the OW. I only know this because she forwarded me the email. He said more than once "this isn't what I want" and he even had a line that read "i hope that we can remain friends for many many years, but for right now i cant communicate with you until she says it is okay to do so. you can call me if you like to discuss this, but for now im gonna have to take you off my facebook and take you out of my phone" - This is not exactly what I meant by "drop her like a rock"- he extends his continued friendship and invites her to contact him. Maybe he thinks it's okay for them to chat if she initiates the conversation? Her response was that of a jilted lover and she ominously says " all of this could have been prevented if you had been honest with her. Period. Just honest with her." So I have more questions than answers on the OW front.

His communication is still essentially non-existent though I think he intends to be there for paternity leave. He also plans on spending time in his home town which is infuriating because paternity leave is not a vacation! Either spend time with the baby or go back to work. It just goes to show how insincere he is about the whole thing. If I wanted to be cruel, I could get him fired for not spending his leave with the baby. I won't do that, but the fact that he mentioned plans to stay in his hometown speaks volumes about his inability to grasp the situation he is in. At this point he can do what he wants, but it is truly baffling.

He hasn't contacted my therapist because she would have to contact me to sign off officially on the disclosure agreement for their sessions. Plus, I would have received a bill. If he's communicating with another therapist, it doesn't show up on his phone records. In fact, he's switched over to almost 100% text messages since he found out I was snooping since I have no access to those records online. Which leads me back to the assumption he's still in full communication with the OW.


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## alte Dame

You sound so cogent and mature about the situation. And distance indeed helps, imo. The old saw about absence making the heart grow fonder never really worked for me - I usually found that I was able to gather my strength much better when I was on my own. The more you write, ASF, the more it sounds like you're light years ahead of your H in maturity and world view. He could catch up, but if he doesn't, it seems like you'll be OK without him.


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## Acabado

Awesome news, my friend! All of them!
Yes, I know you are wondring how can I say that. Because you are awakening, there's no way back. You be sucked again into an abusive relationshio. You were in one. You now know.

Glad to know your baby is perfect and you are cared of by your parents.
Go dark on the a$$hole.


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## Kasler

I think its time for you to file divorce papers. When you take a step back from your relationship, you see it in much more focus. 

the positives and flaws of a spouse are amplified as well.


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## Astonefeather

We need to be separated for a year before filing divorce per state law. I'm hoping to work out a separation agreement while he is here for paternity leave- assuming he follows through and shows up. 

I'm done asking, now I'm telling. He can either work out a reasonable agreement on how to handle this separation or we can go to court. No more sitting on his thumbs.


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## Astonefeather

We need to be separated for a year before filing divorce per state law. I'm hoping to work out a separation agreement while he is here for paternity leave- assuming he follows through and shows up. 

I'm done asking, now I'm telling. He can either work out a reasonable agreement on how to handle this separation or we can go to court. No more sitting on his thumbs.


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## Astonefeather

That sounded more aggressive than I intended... 

I'm just so worried he will do his classic "ignore her until she goes away" act over this. I would really rather not fight and have this whole thing get even more messy than it already is. But yeah, I'm prepared to do what I need to do. He can't hold me down forever, but I'm worried he will try.


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## Kasler

^ Yep. Its good to get these done as soon as possible. Where I am the waiting period is much shorter than a year. But one TAMinite on here is from AUS and has the same 1 year stipulation. Still waiting on it too.


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## Astonefeather

Still waiting on the baby! I'm not due until the 17th, but I'm ready now!!

I spoke to my husband for three hours Monday night. We talked about everything. A lot of it was repetitive as we hashed out all our issues with each other over the course of our marriage. I think we both really listened to each other for the first time in a while.

There are many things that I did to him over the years that upset him and felt unfair to him. Likewise, I was unhappy with many things he has done over the years. Looking back, we stayed together when it was likely in both our best interests to be apart. But the heart wants what it wants. Family and friends on both sides have said to each of us we shouldn't have gotten together. I don't think either of us wanted to see it. We didn't want to be alone, we both wanted a family, we both were inexperienced in love and relationships. We were both each others' first major romantic relationship and that's a hard thing to let go of.

He finally called me because he was upset that I sent him an email about a separation agreement. I want to get our affairs in order and hopefully handle custody and the management of our assets outside of the court system. There is a one year mandatory separation before divorce papers can be filed. We can go to court and fight over everything, or we can sit down together and discuss what we each hope to gain during the next year without spending our savings and dragging each others' names through the mud. Up until receiving the email he was still under the impression that I would eventually come home even if he continued to make very little effort to do the things I had asked of him. As someone on here suggested at one point, he had indeed been poorly advised to sit back and wait for me come home. It was a male friend who agreed that it was my hormones and that I would go back home once the baby was here and things settled down.

I wish so very badly he could just listen to me. He has listened to the advice of people who barely know me or don't even like me (best friend and OW) and then acted shocked to learn that they were wrong. It makes me feel for him, but I don't know what else I could have done to get my feelings across. Even when I put it in writing, he still reads into it that I really mean something else. More than once he has said "I didn't believe you meant it." There is just no helping that. 

I have never said one thing and meant another. I couldn't play mind games if my life depended on it. I look him in the eyes and tell him what I need from him and then let him decide what to do. I guess that since what I was asking him to do was outside of his comfort level, he was happier listening to third party advice and hoping for the best. When I was leaving him, I pleaded with him to put his trust in other people beside the OW. I even suggested a few names of people I believe would have his best interests at heart. He continued to talk to the OW and sought her council. He also spoke to his male best friend who apparently didn't get the full story or who maybe honestly thinks that pregnant women are "crazy" and thus should not have their feelings acknowledged.To think that he has been continuing to ignore me these past weeks for no reason other than he thought I would change my mind and go right back to an unhappy home just makes me so sad for him. He says he has been cleaning, preparing the house for my return, etc. But that isn't what I asked of him. If I had said "clean the house and I will come home" then he did an awesome job. But no, I said I needed him to do four specific things right now if he wanted me to even consider going home. I said to him two weeks ago when we met to return the family dog that I cannot guarantee I will ever go home, but I can promise you here and now that if you continue to do nothing, I am never coming back to you. Two weeks later, he has done next to nothing and so I gave him a heads up about a separation agreement.

Of the four things I asked he has dumped the OW (as far as I know since she was the one who forwarded the email to me, he never mentioned it to me himself) and made preparations to be here for the baby. The communication had not improved and a therapist was never called. He gave excuses Monday night on the phone as to why he hasn't followed through, but there is nothing I can do about it. He doesn't feel comfortable communicating with me regularly nor will he just suck it up and call a therapist. Not even to save his marriage. I think that in itself is very telling. He just simply isn't invested in this enough to put himself out there. I think in his own way, he wants out of this marriage.

I think we were both unhappy. I think we both committed to this marriage and were willing to stick it out because we both felt that we were the other's first choice. That all changed for me when his "friend" crossed the line with him and the whole realization that I wasn't first in his heart after all made me need to reevaluate everything. Things got messy when there was no reason for them to. Every single one of our issues up until the EA were things we could have worked on in therapy. Or therapy would have made us realize that this marriage was broken beyond repair and we could have worked towards an amicable split. The EA was the deal breaker. He still refuses to see it for what it was. I can't help that either. In his mind the definition of an affair is sexual in nature and he stands behind his claim that things were never physical. I told him that I would have had an easier time getting past a drunken one-night stand with a woman he doesn't know more than I could what went down with his "friend." But, oh well. It is what it is.

I've been going through stages of grief, anger, resentment, sorrow, guilt, etc. I know very well that I was not a perfect wife. We both felt that the other was too controlling and demanding. But we were both in it for the long haul because we loved each other more than anything else. We both wanted this baby so badly. But we needed to work on things. I wanted to be a better wife to him and I wanted him to be a better husband to me. We needed therapy! When he refused therapy in the past I used to suggest a mutual friend serve as a third party mediator because we always ended up arguing when someone wanted to talk about tough topics. But he refused even that. I'm just so sad it turned out this way. I am so angry that he had to be so stubborn about something so simple as not having slumber parties at the OW's house. I will never understand how going to therapy even once was such a big deal that he still won't go. Oh well.

Talking to him helped a lot. I feel confident that he will be here for his child which is all that I can hope for. He says he will fight for me custody- he's said this all along. Every time I pleaded for him to choose me over the OW, join me in counseling, or meet me halfway, his only constant reply was that if I left him, he would fight to keep his baby. He still maintains that if he cannot have me and the baby, he will fight to have primary custody of the baby when she's done breast feeding. Not sure how that next level of drama will play out. He has a good job and currently lives in the marital home. I have no job and live with my parents. I don't want to attack each other publicly. I don't want to drag out the affair, the abuse and the neglect. I don't want him to drag out my history with depression, my past business working with reptiles, etc. Because none of those things will have any bearing on who we are as parents and I want us to at least be friends for the sake of our daughter. 

We will see. Maybe he will realize he's better suited to being a part time dad. He has a hard time keeping up with paying bills on time and buying dog food before we run out. I was happy to handle those things when we were together. But I worry about him remembering to check diapers, feed on a schedule, keep the monitor with him when she's napping, etc. I worried about that all along. But the thought of him caring for her all by himself terrifies me. That's why I'm glad he will be an active participant in her life from day one. He has experience with young babies, but that was for his work. It's a different mind set when the baby is yours and you're 100% in charge 24/7. 

I've rambled enough. Time to go to my weekly OB appointment and figure out the car seat straps. Fingers crossed she comes soon, I'm looking forward to meeting the little kicker


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## Unsure in Seattle

Please do me a favor. Compile (not for here; just for yourself) a list of all of the neglectful and abusive behavior you suffered thru your pregnancy that led to your departure, with an eye toward assembling as accurate a timeline as possible... that way you have something to hand to or discuss with a lawyer when the time comes.


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## Rowan

Unsure in Seattle said:


> Please do me a favor. Compile (not for here; just for yourself) a list of all of the neglectful and abusive behavior you suffered thru your pregnancy that led to your departure, with an eye toward assembling as accurate a timeline as possible... that way you have something to hand to or discuss with a lawyer when the time comes.


:iagree: This. 

ASF, I'm sorry, but your husband is an @sshat. And he shows signs of being a true narcissist. If he says he'll fight you for custody, then I think you would be very wise to believe him. Call around now and find yourself a very good attorney who handles divorce/custody cases. Find out how child custody cases work. Prepare a timeline of his abuse/neglect, along with any and every shred of evidence (emails, texts, letters, phone records, anything) you can get that supports the facts of the case. Try to have further communications with your husband be over email (printed and kept somewhere safe), so that there's a record of what is said from both sides. 

Also, there is no reason for you not to let your friends and relatives know you've left him - and why. You don't have to be nasty about it, but you don't owe him a cover story and there's no need to lie. 

And please, please, please, call or email those nice co-workers who threw the baby shower to let them know that you appreciate their kindness but that the two of you are separated and for how long that's been the case. My guess is that they're all wondering at the lack of thank-you notes for the gifts.


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## survivorwife

Unsure in Seattle said:


> Please do me a favor. Compile (not for here; just for yourself) a list of all of the neglectful and abusive behavior you suffered thru your pregnancy that led to your departure, with an eye toward assembling as accurate a timeline as possible... that way you have something to hand to or discuss with a lawyer when the time comes.


:iagree:

This is great advise! Yes!

Prepare for the "worse case scenario". A good offense is the best defense.

It's quite possible that he could get himself a pit-bull attorney, who will use the fact that the OP had to have counseling, whereas her husband did not. Therefore, they will conclude that the OP has mental and emotional issues, whereas her husband does not. This is the likely defense he will use to gain custody of the child.

However, if the OP prepares herself for this particular defense in advance, by having a chronological log of events/times where her H was abusive and/or neglectful, this paints a whole new realistic picture of why she went to counseling to save her marriage, and her H did not.

Also (and maybe I'm just being skeptical), I'm not so sure that the H cut ties with the OW, and that she isn't actively involved in counseling him. Yes, I read that the OW sent a copy of the NC letter, however, there is nothing to suggest that he understands what this did to his marriage, no effort on his part to reassure his W that it's over between them, no regrets, and really (at this point and from his point of view) any reason now for him to end it with the OW.

And finally, we too await the birth of the precious baby girl.


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## alte Dame

I will probably be a different voice here, mainly because I continue to be surprised in my life at the communication breakdown that can regularly occur between men and women. I think I'm the one who suggested that maybe your H was listening to an idiotic friend & thus assuming that you'd make your way home. I have a long term marriage to a man I love, but it never ceases to amaze me how he (mis)interprets what I believe I have expressed clearly. (And he says I don't get what he means, as well.) Sometimes I ask him to mirror what I've said & even then I need to have it paraphrased so that we can understand that maybe, possibly, in the most ideal of worlds, we're on the same page. Often we have to write things down explicitly. (I told some of my gf's one day that they should never ask their H's to be baldly honest with them because they'd be horrified at what they hear...oh well, only partly joking.)

In any event, I've thought two things about your thread:

1. Your problems are possibly a tragic case of miscommunication - at least in part.

2. You seem very mature and articulate, and your H seems immature. His immaturity may be just that & may not necessarily mean he's a bad guy, just making stupid choices (like his behavior with OW).

So..do you really want a divorce? If your communication were better and he could man up, would you want to try again?


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## Astonefeather

I am going through my texts and emails over the course of the pregnancy to have at the ready when/if things go to court. Thanks for the advice!

I don't take the idea of divorce lightly, but I don't really see a future with my husband at this point. There are certain things he has done in the past that I don't think I can ever get over. Now that I'm apart from him I can take stock and I realize that this whole marriage was a horrible mistake for us both. For instance, in his first rage against me, he slapped me. I'm not sure if I told the story here or not because I wanted to focus on the emotional affair he was potentially having. Plus there is a lot of shame in looking back and staying with a man who I thought might hurt me physically. 

We were outside playing fetch with the dog 3 summers ago while we were still engaged. It was hot and there were mosquitoes everywhere so I went inside to take a shower. Out of habit I apparently locked the door behind me. I didn't know I had locked him out. I had no clue he was banging on the door for me to let him in because I was in the shower and didn't hear a thing over the running water. Then I heard crashes inside the house and the door to the bathroom flies open and he's so angry I didn't recognize him. He was insane and screaming and swearing at me. I had my head sticking out of the shower and couldn't understand what he was saying he was so hysterical. It was so out of character for him, I thought he might be playing a sick joke and faking the tantrum (his sense of humor has never made a lot of sense to me) and I must have looked amused in some way. Maybe I smiled in that "what's going on" sort of way, I don't know. But he screams "Oh, you think this is f***king funny?!" and slapped me across the face and stormed out.

He never showed true remorse. Hours later when I finished sobbing and he had calmed down he explained that he was very angry I had locked him out. Up until this point I didn't know what I had done wrong. I should have called the police. I should have left right then and there. But I didn't. At the time, the behavior was so out of left field that I couldn't imagine it happening again. I didn't tell my family or friends. I just pretended like it never happened.

Now, every time he is displeased in any way, I am scared. Scared to get hit again, scared it will be worse the second time around, scared he will lose control and kill me. He never threw himself at my feet and begged forgiveness. He has apologized more sincerely in recent months when it got brought up again during my "this is why we need therapy" talks. But back then he actually threatened to do it again if he felt I deserved it. He denies this now, of course. But in one instance my youngest sister and the OW (back when she was still visiting us regularly) were witness to his screaming and threatening me. He actually threatened to hit my sister too when she tried to defend me. He hasn't hit me since then, but now if he comes into the room frowning I immediately want to make him happy. My therapist had said that since I married him anyway, I couldn't really use it against the marriage now. I mean, his temper is unpredictable and frightening and rarely seen by others. I'll bet his own mother would doubt he could get so angry. Out in public he doesn't even use swear words and chastises me if I use bad language.

Finally leaving him has made me realize that there are certain aspects of our relationship that I can never feel good about. I will always be scared when he gets upset and his temper has come out in many new and threatening ways during my pregnancy. He will give me the silent treatment while glaring at me for literally hours. He trashed the kitchen in a fit of rage when I wasn't appreciative enough that he had cleaned up around the house. He was mad at an outburst I had over how one-sided the pet care was and suggested that he should just "pop me one" so I would leave him, etc. Now that the fog has lifted, I am ashamed I stayed. Whether he ever raised his hand against me again, I would always fear it happening again. If he had agreed to therapy three years ago, I might not be so scared of his temper now. 

I stayed with him when I should have left because I thought he loved me. I thought we could get past the negatives and I honestly thought we had for a while. Things were great between us when we decided to try for a baby. So when I came to realize that he loved his "friend" more than me all along (or maybe he just loves himself best), I had to leave. I think he was only abusive towards me. I don't know how it will look in court that I stayed with a man who slapped me once and threatened more than once to do it again. His gaslighting and lack of empathy and open affair with the OW were the reasons I ultimately left. He knew what I needed and he refused to give it to me. Not only that, he intentionally did things to hurt me more.

We were just a terrible mis-match. We brought out the worst in each other. I think it will take years of individual therapy and marriage counseling and even then I don't know that we were ever truly right for each other. I still love him. He was my first love and the father of the child I believe we both truly wanted. I want to share custody of our baby with him, but he just cannot have her full time. So I will work toward building a case against him even though I hope I don't have to use it.

I guess at this point I no longer wish to be married to this man. I think that our marriage was a mistake for both of us. I don't think my husband is a bad person, but I bring out the worst in him without meaning to. I really do accept my part in this marriage not working out, but there are certain things he has done in the past that I have found I cannot forgive. That, along with the emotional abuse and neglect inflicted on me throughout my pregnancy is just more than I can live with in the long run. I should have been treated with kindness and understanding while carrying his child, not insults and condescension while he flaunted his affair and left me alone as often as he could. Even now that he is communicating more openly with me like I asked, he's still trying to control me in strange little ways. He asked that I call him yesterday to follow up on a topic we were discussing the previous night. I thought that odd, but said okay because it's not worth arguing over at this point. I called him and he was busy so he said "call me back in five minutes." Since I didn't know what he was busy with, how long it would take and I was also checking email and thus distracted a bit myself, I didn't mark the time and call him back in exactly 5 minutes. About 10 minutes later he texts me to say "it's been more than five minutes." Instead of just calling me when he was done doing whatever he was doing, he texted me to tell me that I had failed at the required task. It's just weird. It might be innocent or it might be some sort of narcissistic mind game. I have no clue, but I'm not playing anymore.


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## alte Dame

Lord in heaven! Yes, you need a divorce. So sorry that this has happened to you. The physical abuse is intolerable and should never be excused.

Good luck with your delivery. Your baby will bring tremendous joy and more than compensate for the pain you're now feeling.


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## Jibril

I'm not going to dwell on the negatives in your last post. I think you need some positive reinforcement, so I'll say this.

I am very, _very_ happy that you've decided to move on with your life without him. You deserve better, and I'm pleased to see that you've come to realize this.

Good on you, really. Try not to stress over your ex-husband for the time being. Focus on being happy, for you and your baby. Eat lots of good food, takes lots of vitamins, and try and relax for the next two weeks.

Take care of yourself.


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## KathyGriffinFan

Astone, 

Just read your entire thread and all I have to say, is what a brave and mature woman you are. 

With that being said, your H would be a mismatch for anyone. If he's ever told you that you bring out the worst in him, know how to push his buttons, and you cause to fly into a rage- that's just abuser talk. This guy needs help that you can't give and you are wise to leave. Thank goodness you have a great support system in your family. 

The passive aggressive/creepy increase of the A/C was bad enough, but the slapping and the threats. Do not abide by his wishes and give into his demands, like calling him back exactly 5 minutes later. I doubt you could even convey to him how controlling this is w/o him defending his own disgusting behavior. 

Although you rec'd fwd'd msg's from the OW, I wonder if that was all set up for your benefit. After all, you're ruining their good time and what they probably think is you'll have the baby, you'll stop being a pain to them, and you'll forget all about. So, in the meantime, they'll put on this charade. 

So, he's been physically and emotionally abusive, cobtrolling/demanding, drinks, parties, still goes camping to music festivals, lies to you, spends the night at OW's house and you bring out the worst in him? Seems like he's doing most of this himself. 

Stay strong, never meet him by yourself, and if you're ever alone be cognizant of your surroundings. Sounds like this guy hasn't comprehended it's over, and you don't want to be around for the temper tantrum when reality sets in. 

As everyone else said, take notes. If he's going to fight you in court, be prepared.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karole

Have no doubts ASF, you are doing the right thing for you and your baby. Best of luck to you and your baby! P.S., I think you should insist that your husband have supervised visitation.


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## NaturalHeart

I'm glad you're ok


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## Remains

Did you ever tell him that the OW sent you his emails? As you tell it, it sounded like it was a malicious act, as if you were the other woman that was causing the difficulty beween them! Can you let him know so as to help open his eyes to his toxic friend? 

I realise this may make no difference to your current state of affairs, but, as time goes by and the realisation sets in that you are not coming back (if he makes no amends or effort to help any hope of that) then he will be back in touch with her. He will be best buddies with her again. Worst case scenario, they will end up together and she will be step mum to your child. Aaargh! That will surely stick in the throat. It would mine. Especially given her attitude to her 'best friend' and his wife.


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## Acabado

You don't bring the worse of him, rather the opposite. I see some abused spuse faulty thinking here, likely classic boiling frog effect.
It was your good nature what he toke adventtage of.
I'm so glad to know you are safe with yoir parents.
It's time to come clean. Does your IC know about it?
Do your parents know?

I feel you still are addicted to hope (the very definition of codependency). He won't change, ever. He won't respect anybody else, ever.
He will start respecting you when you force him.
I pray you get full custody.

Hang tough, my friend. You are going to be OK. You will be happier from now on.


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## Astonefeather

My family is now fully aware of everything. My father was the last to know because we (myelf, sisters and mother) were afraid of his reaction to hearing that my husband struck me. He was furious for a long time and understandably so. My parents are disappointed because they raised me better than to stay with someone who would strike me for any reason. And even more disappointed that I lived in fear of it and did nothing about it. 

I looked into codependency and I guess I fit the description in a lot of ways where my husband was concerned. The "addicted to hope" thing really clicked. That's exactly how I felt for years. Every little thing he did for me felt like something monumental and allowed me to ignore all the negatives. I guess it was part of the cycle of abuse where I got worn down to my breaking point and then he would be kind for a little while and I would be convinced he loved me as much as I loved him. I would always put his needs first and consider his feelings on every decision I made. We would fight sometimes over it because I would think of him first and so would he. I never made top billing in either of our choices. The few times I put my down or fought back, I got punished or ignored or he would complain about it to the OW as I learned through my snooping.

Again, I did many things to him that were immature and selfish. I don't think the fact that I "got my way" on certain things is the same thing as holding a gun to his head and making him bend to my will. But at the same time I have spent years trying to make up for it. When he gets his way at my expense, he gets mad if I try to bring it up later. We're coming from very different places. I mess up and I am truly remorseful. He simply doesn't perceive himself as capable of messing up in the first place. 

With regard to the OW stuff, he told me that he couldn't take me seriously because he thought I was exhibiting the traits of a paranoid schizophrenic. As in, the world is out to get me and the voices in my head tell me he's cheating. I wonder if he'll try to use that in court? At least I have been to a therapist who vouch for me and my intact mental faculties. The longer I stay away from him the more I deal with him and just think "what a ****" and move on. I've stopped snooping because it just doesn't matter what he does or doesn't do/say.

When I first left and even up until recently, I was happy to share custody provided she lives with me and he has "reasonable visitation." The more I look through old emails and texts, the more fearful I am that he will harm our child in some way. Even through sheer neglect. He's not the type to check on her if she's quiet or remember to change her if she doesn't actually smell or feed her if he's distracted with something else, etc. Towards the end, I was trying to relate to him about the baby. I told a story about how my grandmother slept with a little flashlight under her pillow so she could peek on my mother in her bassinet without disturbing anyone when my mother was an infant. I was trying to explain to him that mothers are like that because he was so set in the thought that you just put a baby to bed and ignore it. Newborns require feedings all night and new mothers are typically very doting and concerned over every hiccup. It's all so new and you just want to watch them all the time. So I told the story to make it more "real" to him. His response was to exclaim "no wonder your mother grew up to be so crazy!" - as in the flashlight must have altered her mind from an early age. 

It won't be an issue for awhile, but I am building my case as best I can now.


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## Acabado

> With regard to the OW stuff, he told me that he couldn't take me seriously because he thought I was exhibiting the traits of a paranoid schizophrenic. As in, the world is out to get me and the voices in my head tell me he's cheating. I wonder if he'll try to use that in court? At least I have been to a therapist who vouch for me and my intact mental faculties.


Gaslighting at its finest. This kind of mental abuse can mess with our perceptions, make us to doubt our discerniment and mental health. Abusive malignant narcissistic. That what he is. No doubt about it. There's no cure.


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## survivorwife

Astonefeather said:


> With regard to the OW stuff, he told me that he couldn't take me seriously because *he thought I was exhibiting the traits of a paranoid schizophrenic. *As in, the world is out to get me and the voices in my head tell me he's cheating. I wonder if he'll try to use that in court? At least I have been to a therapist who vouch for me and my intact mental faculties. The longer I stay away from him the more I deal with him and just think "what a ****" and move on. I've stopped snooping because it just doesn't matter what he does or doesn't do/say.
> 
> 
> It won't be an issue for awhile, but I am building my case as best I can now.


Oh really? And where did he get HIS medical license with which to diagnose you? Are you saying he doesn't have one? Well then perhaps his experience in the psychological field. What? None on that either? Counseling experience then? No? 

I think he should use that in court. Your attorney will eat him up for breakfast (and lunch too). :rofl:

Seriously, he has no basis and no experience with which to diagnose you. On the other hand, you have a therapist. You will be fine.


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## alte Dame

Re the supposed paranoid schizophrenia: I think this thread alone vouches for your mental health.


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## Astonefeather

39 weeks to the day! I keep looking at every hiccup as a sign that labor might be starting. My mommy books and forums liken the discomfort of being this pregnant as nature's way of preparing a woman for childbirth. What used to be a terrifying prospect (labor and delivery), is now something I am eagerly anticipating. Just going from one position to another feels like my guts are going to fall out. Then there's the back pain and joint aches and bladder pressure, you name it! I've been walking a lot since being back home but it doesn't do much to alleviate the discomfort. I am pretty sure I look like an old woman shuffling up and down the street. Oh well. She'll be here eventually and it will be totally worth it. 

I spoke with my husband for over 3 hours early Sunday morning. We are both night owls by nature so being awake at 1am is nothing out of the ordinary. Plus, I slept all afternoon- something I won't be able to do anymore once the baby is here.  

He had sent me a very long email expressing all of his hurt, confusion, anger and sorrow on Saturday evening. The email was in response to me telling him I was frustrated that he still hasn't told hardly anyone we are separated. It's been a month and I was led to believe he had told his parents. Well, he did tell them I was back home, but he said it was because I was stressed out. It's true that I was stressed over the thought of being isolated with a newborn down in NC while our families were in VA. It's also true that I was devastated that my cat had been killed during such a challenging time in my life. HOWEVER, those are not the only reasons I was back home. I reiterated that I will not tell his family our business but that it isn't fair to mislead people. How will his mother feel when he goes home alone after his paternity leave? It makes our situation much more dramatic than it is. All family and friends need to know is that it's not working out for us and we are separated. But that we are both equally here for our child. That's the simple truth of it. Dragging it out makes it something to gossip about later on. It isn't fair to our daughter who might one day overhear it.

I had said I was going to be changing my facebook status to "separated" because as silly as it sounds, that makes it official in some way to other people. It wasn't a threat to hurt him, but it's been a month and he still isn't facing reality. We are separated and I'm not hiding it. This baby will be here soon and his family will visit and it's going to be a stupid mess when they have no idea what's going on. 

So, we talked and talked and talked. Every time we talk we just rehash all the same things. It ended on a positive note because we were both tired by that point and because we had said all there was to say. He didn't want to get off the phone because he said he wanted to keep hearing my voice. It really breaks my heart. Every day my feelings are different. I stand behind my decision to leave and I don't see myself returning to the situation I left. It helps that he still hasn't called the therapist. He still won't do that one thing for me even now. He insists he hasn't communicated with the OW since he finally broke up with her on the 20th of August. The saddest thing about that is that he explained that even if he wanted to go back to her that the bridge is well and truly burned. He explained that in the past when she feels wronged by someone, she essentially black lists them for years (or life). If this is true. If she is really that type of person, then it makes the fact that he chose her over me that much harder to understand. I wonder if part of the reason he never corrected her for calling night and day, harassing me to get to him, etc because he knew she would simply ditch him for it. I don't know. But the fact that he fought tooth and nail for a friend that is that type of person in the first place just makes it so much sadder. Oh well. It was his choice and he still chose her so that's on him now. He wanted both and now he has none. He could have me if he wanted me. In a way he always will because we share a child.

I saw on Facebook the following day that he had posted a cute video on another girl's wall. Something along the lines of "I saw this and thought of you"- it was less than an hour after we ended our heartfelt conversation. I was never a jealous person before. But if I go back I would be jealous. I wouldn't trust him to not get too close with another woman because now I realize he's capable of it. Now I know he doesn't care about my feelings and will do what he wants regardless of how it affects me. I even suspect that he was thinking of this new girl because I had mentioned her in our phone conversation. She is a mutual friend of ours from before we were dating and I have no issues with her. But she got a special visit from my husband while he was last in town because he volunteered to move her old tv out and her new tv in to apartment. Not a big deal at all except I was still waiting for months to get him to help me move the computers out of the room that was going to be the nursery for our baby. It's not so much that I minded sharing my husband with other people, it was more that he was giving other people what I needed. If he had been there for me at any point in this pregnancy, I would have been okay with him being there for other people too. But I just didn't get that. So now, when he reaches out to women for any reason I will notice it and it will hurt me. And there is still no therapy to fall back on. He has no concept of how to establish boundaries because he doesn't want to learn how. He still maintains that friends are better therapists. Which is fine that he feels that way, but it's not what our marriage needed.

I keep coming back to the affair aspect of things in my mind. I was scared of his temper, his lack of empathy, his weird little punishments and manipulations, and the other things I've told you wonderful folks about in length many times. But the feeling of being picked last in my own marriage just really brings me down even now. I was not a perfect wife. I accept my share of responsibility in all the things that made him unhappy over the years. I don't think he even understands where he went wrong. I don't think he understands even now that he is capable of being wrong. He says all the right things, but I know if I turned around and went back we would be right back where we started.


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## Kasler

You should tell his family. 

A scorned grandparent is definitely something to beware. 

When this child comes everyone needs to know the scenario and what happened. 

You wouldn't want your in laws(soon to be ex in laws) badmouthing you in front of your ex or child because they got the wrong idea. 

And he is NOT gonna do it himself. He wants to look good in his parents eyes so he won't tell them how he won't make any changes for you. He won't tell them how he involves the OW in marital affairs. He doesn't want to see their disappointment. When this baby is born it is ALL gonna come out and the last thing you need after delivering is more drama so get this all out in the open now.


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## turnera

Astonefeather said:


> I saw on Facebook the following day that he had posted a cute video on another girl's wall. Something along the lines of "I saw this and thought of you"- it was less than an hour after we ended our heartfelt conversation. I was never a jealous person before. But if I go back I would be jealous.


That alone ought to tell you he has no intention of ever living 'just for you.' That he would fully intend to have as many women as he deserves/wants.

I'm glad you are recognizing the benefits of leaving. He can always change. On his own. And try to earn you back. That day isn't today. And if he ever decides it is, he'll probably be too late, you'll have moved on and found a wonderful man who will cherish you and NEVER hit you and be faithful. They ARE out there.


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## turnera

Please tell his parents. There's a grandchild involved. They need to know.


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## alte Dame

Is he explicitly trying to talk you into staying with him?


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## Astonefeather

Thanks for the words of advice. I have maintained that telling his family is his business. But, silly me, I would have thought he would tell them something remotely accurate. I knew he wouldn't say anything specific or paint himself in a bad light, but I thought for sure he would at least make it known that we are officially separated. But I think he made it sound like a had a nervous breakdown and ran home to my family to coddle me while he was left all alone and working full time. Sad, but strong and understanding is how people must see him. 

Now if I approach anyone in his family I'm going back on my word. Obviously, something will need to be done. But now it won't be as simple as it was before. His mother and I get along okay, but we aren't as close as I'd use to to hope we'd be. She isn't close to my husband either, but she loves him very much. They just don't talk a lot. Similarly he and his father aren't close though my husband seeks his approval in ways that make truly sorry for him. My father and I are very close and it's heartbreaking that my father's dad is narcissist just like his wayward son. His father had at least one affair and eventually left home to be free. He left his wife to raise their three children alone. It really hurt my husband that I called his relationship with the OW an affair because he suffered the fallout of an affair in his own childhood. Blatant sexual intercourse is the only definition of an affair in my husband's mind and he maintains that he never took that step with his "friend." Oh well. I tried to help him understand for months.

alte Dame- I'm so glad you asked that. He hasn't invited me home since we started talking again. He has implied he wants me home by reminding me how I left him, how he never would have walked away from our marriage, etc. This is fine with me and makes it less uncomfortable. I don't want to keep slamming the door in his face if I can avoid it. I'm not out to punish him for hurting me or seek revenge. I don't want to go to court and attack each other's character, etc. 

But, since the last time we spoke he has checked in with me twice. He called me today and he sounded 100% normal, happy even. So I went with it. There is no need to act sulky when I'm not. It hurt my mother when she overheard the pleasant tone in my voice. My family is worried he will win me over and I will go back. I assure them that is not the case but I need to find a way to make this our new "normal." If we can have pleasant conversation then that's fine with me. But I don't want to upset my family over it. I don't want them to think my husband and I are working things out when we're not. We need to be friends since we share a child. It doesn't feel fair that I can smile and they can't yet. At least not where he is concerned. I totally understand their feelings but I'm not sure how to handle it. In my mind, I know exactly what I'm going to do. In their minds, they have doubts about my resolve. 

I can reassure my mother by telling her all the little things he's doing that make me frustrated and sure of my decision- the "thinking of you" stuff on Facebook, the fact he will never go to therapy, the fact he isn't being honest with the few people he's told, etc. But other than that, it will take time. She's also mortified by how wrong it feels that they are hosting his stay. For the sake of the baby, future custody battles and my need to see him prove himself in the role of a father he is going to be sleeping at our house during his paternity leave. It's a large home, there is a nice guest room and there is an air mattress on the floor of the nursery where the baby and I will be sleeping. At first he didn't feel comfortable staying here, but now he's okay with it. It might change once he's here. He'll feel weird, I'll feel weird, etc and it will have to change. But for the sake of future custody issues, we need to prevent him from saying that we kept him from the baby. My mother was the one who told me to offer him to stay here, now she regrets it because it's really happening. But we can't change our minds on it now, it would reflect poorly on us to revoke the invitation without a reason.

He called me today to ask me to help him make sure we could still reach each other on the phone. He decided to root his phone today which essentially wiped it clean. He wanted to make sure he had done it right and we would still be able to reach each other so he doesn't miss the call when I go into labor. He gave believable reasons for wanting to do this but all I could think was that he wanted to get all his texts, call logs, etc off his phone before coming up here. He'll be up here very soon and I'm sure he doesn't want me to get my hands on his phone. He knows I have snooped and I'm sure he doesn't want me to see the things he's discussed with the OW since I left. So, even if he legitimately needed to wipe his phone, I will never truly believe it. He also volunteered that he is setting up a google voice account. I use google voice for my business line. I'm sure he will use it with an email account that I don't know about and thus he can have a whole separate line that I cannot access. As I've said before, no matter how well we may get along in the coming weeks the trust is completely gone. I will doubt and suspect everything he does because he's given me no reason to believe his words.


----------



## alte Dame

From your description, you two sound so different. I wonder how you got together. You sound stable, mature, intelligent and emotionally sound. He sounds pathologically immature and narcissistic. I know he's violent & that's reason enough to get out, but the yawning gap in maturity will only get worse when the baby comes.

Also, I have to say that your comments on how the OW just cuts people from her life when she's been displeased really gives one pause - a real narcissist herself & a purposeful homewrecker.


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## Acabado

> He hasn't invited me home since we started talking again. He has implied he wants me home by reminding me how I left him, how he never would have walked away from our marriage,


Of course, he reminds you he's the victim here.
Still nothing he says or does sound like love. He's not heartbreaken, he suffers from a wounded ego. That's all. How dared she...? You wounded his narcissistic core.
That's also the reason to hide your walk out. Facade.


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## moxy

Sounds like he is still trying to pull you back into the same power cycle. You see how many problems you had that you rug swept (many similarities in my story, so I can understand what you're going through) and can't anymore. Do not allow this man to pull you back in like this because he hasn't changed in the face of it all and you'd be in for more intimidation, threats, control, and betrayal. He's not accepted responsibility for a single thing, so he has not earned the right to a second chance -- especially not a second chance which he is trying to get in order to bully you into submission.

The phone call and five minute thing was a classic destabilization and control move. I'm glad you saw through the power play. Regardless of love, if those problems aren't addressed, your future would hold danger. His anger and self-entitlement and impulse control and immaturity are standing in the way of a healthy relationship right now because he won't acknowledge them or deal with them. You can love him all you want, but you shouldn't continue the marriage until and unless you see genuine change. Be very careful and guard your child. That a/c gas lighting scared me just in hearing about it. You shouldn't have to be afraid of his anger or the consequences of not keeping him pleased. You sounded strong in that post; keep it up! Much luck to you and your baby.


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## survivorwife

Astonefeather said:


> He called me today to ask me to help him make sure we could still reach each other on the phone. He decided to root his phone today which essentially wiped it clean. He wanted to make sure he had done it right and we would still be able to reach each other so he doesn't miss the call when I go into labor. He gave believable reasons for wanting to do this but all I could think was that he wanted to get all his texts, call logs, etc off his phone before coming up here. He'll be up here very soon and I'm sure he doesn't want me to get my hands on his phone. He knows I have snooped and I'm sure he doesn't want me to see the things he's discussed with the OW since I left. So, even if he legitimately needed to wipe his phone, I will never truly believe it. He also volunteered that he is setting up a google voice account. I use google voice for my business line. I'm sure he will use it with an email account that I don't know about and thus he can have a whole separate line that I cannot access. As I've said before, no matter how well we may get along in the coming weeks the trust is completely gone. I will doubt and suspect everything he does because he's given me no reason to believe his words.


I'm with you on this one. Call me old-fashioned, but it doesn't take any "technical magic" to be able to reach each other by phone. Either he calls you and you don't answer because you are in labor, or he calls your Mom, or your Mom calls him. He keeps his cell phone on so you can reach him or you give your family a list of his phone numbers. Not rocket science here. And sometimes one has to get creative. 

When my water broke, my H took me to the hospital. I was examined and it was determined by the doctor to induce labor. My H went home, thinking he could get a nap before the baby came.  Anyway, instead of napping, he was chatting on the phone with a family member about the impending birth. Long story short, I had to call a neighbor to walk down the street, tell him to get off the phone and back to the hospital as the birth was imminent. I was in labor for only 3 hours...lol And yes, he made it in time for the birth.

So yes, I agree that playing with his phone is just an excuse to do some creative security, nothing more than that.

And I am so happy to read that you are doing well in spite of the drama created by your WS and that you have the full support of your family. You will be just fine. :smthumbup:


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## turnera

Stay strong. And please please please at least write your FIL/MIL a letter explaining what happened, ok? They deserve that much and you do NOT owe your husband a 'keeping your word' moment here - HE is the reason you had to escape your own home, ok? YOU DON'T OWE HIM ANYTHING.

Please tell them the truth.


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## Astonefeather

If I went over his head and told his family, I'm not sure what I would say. I am sure that his family will side with my husband, which is completely natural and expected of them, so I wouldn't want to come across as attacking him by sharing too many details. I want to be able to own up to my end of things that went wrong in our marriage, but also express to them that I very much wanted to work things out. That I was in couples counseling alone, etc. 

It may all have to come out in person when/if his mother comes to see her grandchild. I have to assume she will visit us but you never know if my husband will try to convince her that I'm not stable for guests or something. I have no idea. I guess I will go ahead and contact her in a simple way to invite her here when the baby comes. Just a simple- "can't wait for you to meet the baby!" sort of thing. 

My husband's father is exactly like him. I NEVER liked his father or respected him as a man. I just completely didn't see that his son was the same person. It's actually funny that all the qualities I disliked in my father-in-law, my husband possesses as well. That was some pretty thick fog! I won't be reaching out to him. He will waltz in and see the baby when he feels like it regardless of what anyone does or says. 

My husband has been in daily contact. He checks in on me, shares funny things he finds on the internet, etc. I have to assume that he is indeed setting things up to win me back with his charm. It's much easier to work with him by acting like nothing's changed. We get along well when he's his normal happy-go-lucky self. But I am also very concerned what will happen when he is set to leave and I don't follow. Or I don't ask to be taken back. Or if he asks me back and I refuse, etc. I fear violence because I am now conditioned to react that way (though he reminded me recently that his strike didn't leave a mark thus implying it wasn't that bad), but I also fear him simply taking the baby. My family will be on high alert as will I. I think he understands the consequences of acting out in an obvious way. There will be zero tolerance of anything remotely similar to the stunts he was pulling back home.


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## turnera

Astonefeather said:


> If I went over his head and told his family, I'm not sure what I would say.


Stop making excuses. 

You're just afraid of making him mad. If you can't admit that, then you have a LOT of work to do.

"MIL/FIL, I need to let you know that your son and I have separated. He has been cheating on me with ______, and I can't continue to stay in a marriage if he won't put me first above another woman. I hope you will understand."

It's that simple.

Stop making excuses and do the right thing.


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## Unsure in Seattle

Dunno if I'd put it quite so harshly, but I have to agree.


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## turnera

I'm sorry if you think I'm harsh, but people nowadays have been taught to be politically correct over being right, and look at what it's doing - 50 years ago, if a woman stole another woman's man, that wife would be after the OW with a frying pan. Nowadays we can't even talk about what's being done to us. No wonder the ME generation is running rampant with cheaters and liars - we no longer have consequences.

Now, in stonefeather's case, she may truly be afraid of what her husband will do, and I understand that. But that's extortion, and you can't live your whole life afraid of his actions, ok? Standing up for yourself and telling the truth and being MAD! about what he did is the most helpful, empowering, healthy thing you can do for you and your kid.

Plus, by telling the grandparents the truth, they will be able to carry on a truthful, meaningful relationship with YOU and ALSO with their grandchild. One of you needs to tell the truth. And it ought to be you.


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## Jellybeans

Astonefeather--you are doing the right thing by getting on. Him hitting you is no ok, ever. 

It seems there have always been 3 people in your marriage. And sad to say, you said it bothered you from the beginning, but you still hung in there. The ap propriate thing would have been to shut it down right there (by saing you weren't into dating someone who was so close to another chick , that it is dysfunctional and there are 2 people in a relationship, not 3). But.... 

Good for you for taking the right steps.

I do have a question for you. You said the OW has been with her partner for many years now. Did her partner ever say anything about their relationship? I would tell her partner what you've been through and what's going on. He has a right to know. This isn't normal at all and I imagine it's caused a few headaches in her own relationship. 

Rest assured, your husband will never have a healthy relationship with a woman (you or otherwise) as long as he keeps this crap up w/ her.


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## constant_ache

You've acknowledged that you were in an abusive relationship and that you should have left a long time ago, but you're also minimizing why you left.
In the previous post, the majority of it was geared towards the issue with the OW. Does that really matter though? Doesn't it only matter that he has a pattern of physical and emotional abuse?
Even a disturbing act like lower the A/C without telling you, putting you and your unborn child in harms way?
At that point, if there is another woman in the picture, good. See ya. Didn't want you anyways, right?

Instead, the majority of the post is pointing to towards the OW being the catalyst for leaving, and I'm sure in hindsight you know that shouldn't be the case.

I agree with Turnera. Stop babying him. He's not fully grasping your gone yet. I understand you don't want to make him so angry that he's going to make your life a living hell, but 3 hours over the phone for one night? 
If you're not thinking of going back to him, whatever are you doing?

Stop that. You're separated with no intention of returning. 
Update your facebook status to separated, contact his parents or just his mom and any family of his you talk to and by cordial and simple. You could say he spent the day beating you to a pulp, and eventually, they'll side with their son. It's the way it goes.

Start weaning yourself away from him. Don't talk to him as long, don't answer the phone some times, don't respond to text messages. Start talking to him less and less. 
He needs to understand you're done. This guy has much work to do and you sound healthy. You're not on the same page.

Understandably, you want to be on friendly terms when the baby arrives so that you may coparent together. However, he's at an immature stage (to say the least) and you're gonig to have to lead by example whether he likes it or not.


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## Kasler

^ Yes, very much so this post. 

If you keep acting like you're married or it will blow over, thats what he'll believe. 3 hour phone calls? They need to be more like 3 minutes. 

You're separated, act like it.

If you keep leading him on trying to act like you weren't FORCED to move out of your home while pregnant, its not going to well for either of you.

Until you let go of these vestiges of daily routine, you can't really put your future without him in perspective, especially with you being on the phone with him for several hours a day.


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## Acabado

Friend. You need to detach more from your husband in order to have a more balanced emotional state.
All those 3 hours phone calls, the constant texts...
Not a good thing.
I know you are still hoping he's going to wake up as if this somehow finnaly would show you are worth. He's going to tell how wrong he was all this time, how ashamed of himself he is, how blilnd he was until now he couldn't see how wonderfull you are.

Detach, friend. Cut down the contact to the bare minimum, force yourself. It's like a mental diet.


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## Kasler

Acabado said:


> Friend. You need to detach more from your husband in order to have a more balanced emotional state.
> All those 3 hours phone calls, the constant texts...
> Not a good thing.
> I know you are still hoping he's going to wake up as if this somehow finnaly would show you are worth. He's going to tell how wrong he was all this time, how ashamed of himself he is, how blilnd he was until now he couldn't see how wonderfull you are.
> 
> Detach, friend. Cut down the contact to the bare minimum, force yourself. It's like a mental diet.


This post. Until you see complete signs of remorse and heavy liftin you absolutely have to stay detached. One poster on here Chris22. He was done with his STBEW. She lured him in with a night of good sex. Then while he wasn't about to R with her, he was completely detached from her emotionally anymore.

Guess what she did? Took that chance that she stole through sex and after she partially wormed her way into his heart, She humiliated and stepped on his heart again one last time. 

Hes still D'ing but all that pain was so unnecessary and could've been completely avoided if he just stayed detached.

If your still emotionally connected to him, he can hurt you deeply at any time. Its very painful for you, but it would take a toll on your family. No one likes seeing someone they love keep setting themselves up for pain or failure time and time again.


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## vi_bride04

Acabado said:


> Friend. You need to detach more from your husband in order to have a more balanced emotional state.
> All those 3 hours phone calls, the constant texts...
> Not a good thing.
> I know you are still hoping he's going to wake up as if this somehow finnaly would show you are worth. He's going to tell how wrong he was all this time, how ashamed of himself he is, how blilnd he was until now he couldn't see how wonderfull you are.
> 
> Detach, friend. Cut down the contact to the bare minimum, force yourself. It's like a mental diet.










Kasler said:


> This post. Until you see complete signs of remorse and heavy liftin you absolutely have to stay detached. One poster on here Chris22. He was done with his STBEW. She lured him in with a night of good sex. Then while he wasn't about to R with her, he was completely detached from her emotionally anymore.
> 
> Guess what she did? Took that chance that she stole through sex and after she partially wormed her way into his heart, She humiliated and stepped on his heart again one last time.
> 
> Hes still D'ing but all that pain was so unnecessary and could've been completely avoided if he just stayed detached.
> 
> If your still emotionally connected to him, he can hurt you deeply at any time. Its very painful for you, but it would take a toll on your family. No one likes seeing someone they love keep setting themselves up for pain or failure time and time again.


Repeating these posts.....

Yes...it is the only thing that gives you sanity...detachment...been there with the calls, texts, emails, "dinners"...everything was to try to lure me back in. He is going to try to get you back in his grasp. Be careful. Be wary when he comes to stay. 

Use this time to detach as much as you can. You have a GREAT support system - use it. 

You can do this.


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## Astonefeather

I agree. Thanks for reminding me of these things.

The OW stuff hurts the most right now because I stayed through a lot of abuse for all the wrong reasons- mostly thinking that he loved me and respected me even though he didn't always show it. The betrayal and humiliation of being laughed at by my husband and his girlfriend just seems to hurt the most. I suddenly realized after all these years that I was a doormat. I kept rereading the conversations they had online and wallowing in it. I was considering leaving him for a myriad of other reasons in the past and I am furious with myself that I lingered and the result was an affair right in my face.

Even if he magically changed overnight into the man I thought I married all along, I can't/won't go back. The damage is well and truly done and I have been selfish for too long. I keep saying it's about the baby now, but I need to act like it.

It will get worse before it gets better because he has every legal right to see the baby. And the hormones and emotions and stress and joy of this baby will be compounded by the fact that he will be there the whole way through. After his paternity leave and some sort of separation agreement is worked out it will be easier to detach. But you're right, I need to start working harder on doing that now.

I haven't been answering his calls lately. It's extra messy right now because there will likely be a court battle for custody and anything I do or say that could be perceived as keeping him from his child could hurt me down the road. There are a lot of things I've said here that I can't necessarily prove in court. Especially when my husband has already started his lines about how I would physically attack him sometimes and vehemently denies the cruel little things he's been doing. It's mostly going to be "he said, she said" so both sides will be looking for recent and concrete things to throw at each other. I have a lot of evidence about the EA but the courts don't care that he was a crappy husband, they care about what he can offer the child as a father.

I am now addressing the topic of letting go in therapy. It's just really confusing right now and it's easier to fall into old habits. I have maintained that I am staying put with my family and this baby, but I'm more comfortable being friendly with people than cold no matter what the situation. I've been called a "people pleaser" but now I'm realizing I'm just an easy victim for cruel minded people. I don't want to rock the boat or hurt anyone's feelings. It's my greatest character flaw as you all can see.

I talked to my family after reading your comments and they are on board with giving me daily reminders to stay the course. I will not go back, it will be hard, and I will try harder to be firm and distant. 

Thank you again for telling me the things I need to hear.


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## Kasler

:iagree:

Now you're getting somewhere.


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## turnera

Astonefeather said:


> The OW stuff hurts the most right now because I stayed through a lot of abuse for all the wrong reasons-


Eh? So what?

I choose to look at my mistakes as God-given opportunities to learn and grow. I'm perfection in the making, and so are you! Going through that has taught you a LOT, has it not? Consider yourself wiser, and blessed. Now you have a wonderful child to live for.


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## turnera

For custody, just make sure you don't do anything illegal and you'll be fine. Keep a ringbound notebook of everything he does; the judge may or may not look at it. Go back to the marriage and work up.

An easy read, and pretty powerful, The Dance Of Anger - a great book for people pleasers.


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## alte Dame

ASF,

I sound like a broken record on your thread, but I want to say again that your feelings will probably change dramatically when your baby is born. Love between a man and woman is ephemeral (unfortunately, as anyone reading her can see). Love for your children is boundless and immutable. You'll feel the difference immediately; you probably already are feeling it. I'm sure biologists can explain the different chemical reactions that account for this, but that has never mattered to me. What has always mattered is the effect.

Whatever love you thought you felt or still feel for your husband will seem shallow in comparison to what you feel for your child. And your priorities will be very clear. I doubt you'll waffle at all once the baby is here.

You're starting out a life as a mother with a lot of turmoil & that's a shame, but that too shall pass. Hang in as you've been doing. And all the best.


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## Astonefeather

Quickie update: My due date is tomorrow (Monday, 9/17) and still no baby! I am running out of ways to keep busy while I wait. My OB will run tests tomorrow morning to see when/if he will be inducing labor. The baby can stall all she wants, but she can't stay in there forever! 

I've been reading "Women Who Love Too Much" which has been amazingly helpful to me. I probably should have read it years ago, but I wasn't ready to accept the hard truths until recently. 

And I'm looking into some graduate programs in accounting in preparation to move onto the next phase of my life in the coming months. It feels a bit premature to make any solid decisions about the future, but it's great to know I have options. I contacted the department head about the post-baccalaureate program.

I have been taking everyone's advice about stepping back from my husband. He keeps luring me in with requests that seem reasonable (he asks for pictures of my belly, asks about my day, etc) and then ignores my reply. It's hard for me to just ignore him outright when he texts, but I will obviously need to do that from now on. It's comical at this point. He asked for belly shots, I sent them, and he replied about his plans for dinner complete with a picture of what he had prepared for himself. It was like he didn't get the photos at all. So now I will just avoid him altogether unless it pertains to the baby in some way.

I hope my next update will be a baby announcement! I'm ready to move onto better things!


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## turnera

meh

Take some time off!

Deal with your marriage later, ok?

Enjoy your baby.


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## DH1971

Astonefeather said:


> I agree. Thanks for reminding me of these things.
> 
> The OW stuff hurts the most right now because I stayed through a lot of abuse for all the wrong reasons- mostly thinking that he loved me and respected me even though he didn't always show it. The betrayal and humiliation of being laughed at by my husband and his girlfriend just seems to hurt the most. I suddenly realized after all these years that I was a doormat. I kept rereading the conversations they had online and wallowing in it. I was considering leaving him for a myriad of other reasons in the past and I am furious with myself that I lingered and the result was an affair right in my face.
> 
> Even if he magically changed overnight into the man I thought I married all along, I can't/won't go back. The damage is well and truly done and I have been selfish for too long. I keep saying it's about the baby now, but I need to act like it.
> 
> It will get worse before it gets better because he has every legal right to see the baby. And the hormones and emotions and stress and joy of this baby will be compounded by the fact that he will be there the whole way through. After his paternity leave and some sort of separation agreement is worked out it will be easier to detach. But you're right, I need to start working harder on doing that now.
> 
> I haven't been answering his calls lately. It's extra messy right now because there will likely be a court battle for custody and anything I do or say that could be perceived as keeping him from his child could hurt me down the road. There are a lot of things I've said here that I can't necessarily prove in court. Especially when my husband has already started his lines about how I would physically attack him sometimes and vehemently denies the cruel little things he's been doing. It's mostly going to be "he said, she said" so both sides will be looking for recent and concrete things to throw at each other. I have a lot of evidence about the EA but the courts don't care that he was a crappy husband, they care about what he can offer the child as a father.
> 
> I am now addressing the topic of letting go in therapy. It's just really confusing right now and it's easier to fall into old habits. I have maintained that I am staying put with my family and this baby, but I'm more comfortable being friendly with people than cold no matter what the situation. I've been called a "people pleaser" but now I'm realizing I'm just an easy victim for cruel minded people. I don't want to rock the boat or hurt anyone's feelings. It's my greatest character flaw as you all can see.
> 
> I talked to my family after reading your comments and they are on board with giving me daily reminders to stay the course. I will not go back, it will be hard, and I will try harder to be firm and distant.
> 
> Thank you again for telling me the things I need to hear.


You deserve better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## survivorwife

Astonefeather said:


> Quickie update: My due date is tomorrow (Monday, 9/17) and still no baby! I am running out of ways to keep busy while I wait. My OB will run tests tomorrow morning to see when/if he will be inducing labor. The baby can stall all she wants, but she can't stay in there forever!
> 
> I've been reading "Women Who Love Too Much" which has been amazingly helpful to me. I probably should have read it years ago, but I wasn't ready to accept the hard truths until recently.
> 
> And I'm looking into some graduate programs in accounting in preparation to move onto the next phase of my life in the coming months. It feels a bit premature to make any solid decisions about the future, but it's great to know I have options. I contacted the department head about the post-baccalaureate program.
> 
> I have been taking everyone's advice about stepping back from my husband. He keeps luring me in with requests that seem reasonable (he asks for pictures of my belly, asks about my day, etc) and then ignores my reply. It's hard for me to just ignore him outright when he texts, but I will obviously need to do that from now on. It's comical at this point. He asked for belly shots, I sent them, and he replied about his plans for dinner complete with a picture of what he had prepared for himself. It was like he didn't get the photos at all. So now I will just avoid him altogether unless it pertains to the baby in some way.
> 
> I hope my next update will be a baby announcement! I'm ready to move onto better things!


I am so glad to read that you are moving forward. I hope you and the baby are well and look forward to an update, although I would imagine that you are very busy right about now.


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## turnera

Congratulations?!


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## survivorwife

turnera said:


> Congratulations?!


I hope that's why we haven't heard from the OP. I suspect that, since the baby was due a couple of days ago, she could very well have delivered by now. I wish her the best.


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## Astonefeather

LOL, I wish that was the case!! Thanks for the well wishes! Still no baby. 

Since she's overdue they did a biophysical profile to make sure everything was still good. She tested 8/8 for the stats they check out (muscle tone, amniotic fluid, etc) so she gets until Monday the 24th before the OB schedules an induction. I keep thinking of it in terms of an eviction notice. 

I'm about to go on yet another walk (read "waddle") around the neighborhood to see if gravity will pitch in. My mother won't let me go out after dark alone so my dad is going with me. Which is adorable. I am very spoiled. My sisters like to tease that they are only spoiling me until they get their hands on the baby.


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## survivorwife

Astonefeather said:


> LOL, I wish that was the case!! Thanks for the well wishes! Still no baby.
> 
> Since she's overdue they did a biophysical profile to make sure everything was still good. She tested 8/8 for the stats they check out (muscle tone, amniotic fluid, etc) so she gets until Monday the 24th before the OB schedules an induction. I keep thinking of it in terms of an eviction notice.
> 
> I'm about to go on yet another walk (read "waddle") around the neighborhood to see if gravity will pitch in. My mother won't let me go out after dark alone so my dad is going with me. Which is adorable. I am very spoiled. My sisters like to tease that they are only spoiling me until they get their hands on the baby.


"eviction notice" :rofl:

I'm glad to read that your family is spoiling you. 

So how are things with the father? Any better for you? I hope he realizes that the marriage is over and you won't be hoping into his car with the baby and heading back home with him, unless he has a major change of attitude, which is not likely to happen. Has he told his parents anything yet?


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## turnera

Astonefeather said:


> I'm about to go on yet another walk (read "waddle") around the neighborhood to see if gravity will pitch in.


lol

I went into labor during an aerobics class. I was trying to give birth in August so kiddo wouldn't have to wait another year to go to school, so I was exercising like mad. She still didn't come until Sept. 2.


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## Astonefeather

It's funny how our children rule the roost before they are even born. I'm eating watermelon while surfing the web, by the way. 

My husband and I are on good terms. He has kept me posted on his plans and he seems genuinely excited for the baby. He's been working on the house down in NC and sent me some pictures of what he's done. I'm glad he's happy about the baby stuff and I'm glad he's taking care of the house and not letting the yard fall to crap. My sister had the city called on her by a neighbor not too long ago because she wasn't cutting her grass weekly and there were weeds. The neighbor is a little bit a of a crazy person when it comes to lawn care, but I did worry what our yard would look like if my husband just altogether ignored it for the last 6 weeks.

To the best of my knowledge my husband has told only his immediate family that I'm in Virginia. He also hasn't amended his earlier statements that I left North Carolina because I wasn't able to deal with my stress. Since the baby is due any minute, I am just going to focus on being ready for motherhood right now.

I did tell my husband that he needs to clear any photos with me before posting to Facebook (I will afford him the same consideration, to be fair). I don't want him to post misleading things for all his friends and family to see. I'm sure there will be photos of the two of us smiling with the baby and I will be extremely displeased if he posts them without my knowledge and adds more stupid confusion to our situation. I feel fairly confident that he does indeed think that I will be returning home with him after his paternity leave.

I could be wrong. We've discussed everything at length so many times and not once have I said that I will toddle back home after I recover. Even when I thought he was interested in taking the steps needed to reconcile, I still said I intended to get in shape, learn to stand on my own two feet, and get my priorities straight before returning. Not once have I given any indication that I would just turn around and go home without MAJOR changes for both of us. But since he still completely refuses therapy of any kind and is apparently now using an email I can't access (I thought he left his old accounts unchanged to prove he wasn't hiding anything... silly me), has wiped and rooted his phone, etc, I have no reason to think that anything at all has changed or ever will.

My plan moving forward in dealing with my husband and his potential denial of the situation is to set boundaries as best I am able. There will be consequences if he chooses not to work with me on certain things. Not out of maliciousness or anger, but simply self-preservation at this point. For instance, if he goes over my head and posts misleading "happy family" photos, I will change our facebook status to separated. It's totally fine that people know we are both in love with our baby, but not if he presents it as a false representation of our current marital situation. Also, I've told him many times now that I am not advertising our situation, but when/if people ask I will share them that we are separated. If they are my friends, I give them a little more than if they are acquaintances. I am not dragging his name through mud or lying, but I'm not protecting his pride any more either. I suspect his mother will say something hurtful and insulting while she's visiting and I will be compelled to clue her in on some facts. 

Since she's only been told that I had a breakdown and ran home to my family, leaving her son all alone to work full time, tend the house and potentially miss the birth of his child, I'm sure she isn't thrilled with me. She hasn't said anything to me at this point, but I imagine her saying something while she's here visiting like "See? This isn't so bad. Now, do you really think you needed to make such a fuss by leaving?" - something like that. Or maybe something more direct or angry. I don't know. She falls into that same camp as my husband where I am nothing special because women have babies every day. Which I agree with. But I should have been special to them because I was carrying THEIR baby/grand baby. His mother in law encouraged me to indulge in alcohol at my baby shower, that it was no big deal just to have one or two. She said that in front of my mother and we were horrified. Why even suggest that I take a chance on anything? I politely declined and she made some comment about being too fussy and went back to her seat.

So yeah... things are fine but I don't know for certain if my husband accepts the situation or not. I hope he does and we are honestly just on decent terms right now. It's very possible that he's loving being single and having the house to himself. I have no clue. We'll discuss it while he's here I'm sure, but not right away. First thing is figure out how babies work.


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## turnera

I really like that consequence. I think I'm going to have to suggest that to people.


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## alte Dame

It sounds like your husband is in that strange and absolutely infuriating mindset where he is both clueless about the reality, but at the same time patronizing and smug. If you are polite or coy with other people about your reading of your situation, they will easily accept your husband's version & this will make you want to scream even more. You may have to just start telling everyone quite simply and directly, 'my husband had an affair & I won't tolerate it.' End of story. If people counterargue, simply repeat your assertion, again and again.

Now to the truly important stuff - I'm hoping that you are delivering your beautiful baby as I post this. You have many virtual friends here waiting to hear the good news. Best of luck!


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## Astonefeather

Still no baby. I know it's normal for first-time moms to go late, but the waiting is just the worst. 

If she's not here by Monday, the OB will schedule an induction. I was hoping to avoid that, but she's gotta come out some time!


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## turnera

Oh believe me, she will! lol

Enjoy your last weekend of freedom and peace!


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## Astonefeather

Baby update! Heading to the hospital this evening to begin the induction process. Tonight they will apply prostaglandin and then at 3am tomorrow morning, they will start pitocin to initiate labor. 

The possibility of requiring a c-section is there, but we're aiming for natural birth... with epidural. 

My husband is on his way here right now. But I reserve the right to ask him to leave if he makes me uncomfortable. My sisters will be there and my parents are on stand by to come to the hospital at any point night or day. My grandmother and other loved ones are waiting for the baby's arrival before heading over. Though Nana might not be able to contain her enthusiasm for her first great grandchild. I won't be surprised if she shows up before labor even starts. lol.


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## warlock07

good luck!!


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## ladybird

Does he do this type of thing with his other friends, or just her?


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## turnera

Good luck!


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## survivorwife

Astonefeather said:


> Baby update! Heading to the hospital this evening to begin the induction process. Tonight they will apply prostaglandin and then at 3am tomorrow morning, they will start pitocin to initiate labor.
> 
> The possibility of requiring a c-section is there, but we're aiming for natural birth... with epidural.
> 
> My husband is on his way here right now. But I reserve the right to ask him to leave if he makes me uncomfortable. My sisters will be there and my parents are on stand by to come to the hospital at any point night or day. My grandmother and other loved ones are waiting for the baby's arrival before heading over. Though Nana might not be able to contain her enthusiasm for her first great grandchild. I won't be surprised if she shows up before labor even starts. lol.


WOW Thanks for the update!

Good Thoughts and Best Wishes coming your way! :smthumbup:


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## ladybird

Good luck with labor and delivery.. I prey that everything goes well for you both!! =)


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## Astonefeather

Proud to announce: my perfect baby girl was born into the world via an unplanned c-section on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 at 1:21pm. She weighed 8lbs, 11oz, 21 inches long and is completely perfect in every way.

I have had some complications. Everything is fine, but it's almost laughable at this point. Like no one put certain allergies into my chart at the hospital. There is no way to prove I ever said I had certain allergies to adhesives, but I feel like the least they could do is not charge me for the follow up care and medications to fix their mistakes. LOL, it's just so silly.

Thank god all the negatives of the last nine months and into my post partum health have fallen onto me. My child seems to have been spared any ill effects. She is healthy, active, alert, hungry and silly. She is just so perfect I can't believe she is mine!


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## EI

Astonefeather said:


> Proud to announce: my perfect baby girl was born into the world via an unplanned c-section on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 at 1:21pm. She weighed 8lbs, 11oz, 21 inches long and is completely perfect in every way.
> 
> I have had some complications. Everything is fine, but it's almost laughable at this point. Like no one put certain allergies into my chart at the hospital. There is no way to prove I ever said I had certain allergies to adhesives, but I feel like the least they could do is not charge me for the follow up care and medications to fix their mistakes. LOL, it's just so silly.
> 
> Thank god all the negatives of the last nine months and into my post partum health have fallen onto me. My child seems to have been spared any ill effects. She is healthy, active, alert, hungry and silly. She is just so perfect I can't believe she is mine!


Congratulations to you and your (not so tiny) perfect and healthy baby girl. One day this precious little girl will know what the true definition of love and sacrifice means and she will have had the perfect example in you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *LittleDeer*

Congratulations. So glad you are doing ok. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Wonderful!


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## survivorwife

Astonefeather said:


> Proud to announce: my perfect baby girl was born into the world via an unplanned c-section on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 at 1:21pm. She weighed 8lbs, 11oz, 21 inches long and is completely perfect in every way.
> 
> I have had some complications. Everything is fine, but it's almost laughable at this point. Like no one put certain allergies into my chart at the hospital. There is no way to prove I ever said I had certain allergies to adhesives, but I feel like the least they could do is not charge me for the follow up care and medications to fix their mistakes. LOL, it's just so silly.
> 
> Thank god all the negatives of the last nine months and into my post partum health have fallen onto me. My child seems to have been spared any ill effects. She is healthy, active, alert, hungry and silly. She is just so perfect I can't believe she is mine!


Congratulations!! :smthumbup:


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## alte Dame

Wonderful, wonderful news! Give your new girl a virtual hug from all of us.


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## Jellybeans

Congrats on the bebe


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## Danielfom

That is so wonderful.


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## Acabado

Wonderful news! You sound so happy!


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## Kasler

This is awesome news. Congratulations on the healthy child.


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## survivorwife

Any updates, Astonefeather?

Yes, I know you are busy with your beautiful new baby girl. 

But if you find a minute or two in between mothering and napping, I sure would like to know how things are going with you and your H. I do hope everything is running smoothly for you.


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## Acabado

Still in my thoughts Astonefeather.


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## Astonefeather

Still alive and well! The baby is doing great, she is still perfect in every way. 

My husband and I are doing a million times better than expected. I will update with more soon. The second I sat down to type, the baby started fussing and I'm here alone tonight.


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## tom67

Astonefeather said:


> Still alive and well! The baby is doing great, she is still perfect in every way.
> 
> My husband and I are doing a million times better than expected. I will update with more soon. The second I sat down to type, the baby started fussing and I'm here alone tonight.


Is the fog gone I hope so


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## Astonefeather

Update: Tomorrow will be 8 weeks since my daughter was born! She's perfect in every way, I couldn't be a happier new mom. 

My husband has been here since she was born. He has been staying at the house as planned. The nursery is a very large room and we have separate beds on opposite sides of the room. As parents we are a great team. I have no complaints on my husband's skills as a parent. He's a natural in every way and I trust him completely. That was the biggest concern in all of this for me. Feeling unloved and rejected during my pregnancy made me fear that he didn't want this baby and she would grow up feeling like her father never wanted her. 

There was a lot of unhappiness for both myself and my husband over the years but nothing that I considered a deal breaker until his close friend invaded our marriage. Therapy was refused at every turn, ultimatums ignored and I finally left.

Over the past 2 months we have done a LOT of talking. I have gotten my questions answered and we have worked through a lot of past hurts. He will be returning to North Carolina next week but coming up frequently to visit. I plan on driving down with the baby as soon as I feel comfortable spending that much time on the road alone with a newborn. 

My husband has contacted a therapist and had a session with her on the phone. He plans to be in individual counseling to work through his own stuff and I may join him after a point when I go down to visit to work on our things. I am pleasantly surprised by this, but I try not to get my hopes up. I did share with him my thoughts on him being a narcissist. I really put it all out there over the last 8 weeks because I have nothing to lose at this point. He finally shared with me his feelings on various things, stories from his childhood that helped me understand him better, etc. There is so much about him that he just never wanted to talk about I never pushed it. But honestly, hearing about his past in greater detail helps me understand him. We talked about where I went wrong over the years and what I have done that has hurt him. He has a lot of valid issues with my actions on certain occasions and I appreciated finally learning his feelings about things. 

I can't think of a single topic that we haven't discussed going all the way back to our first date. After countless hours of talking, I believe him when he tells me that his EA with his "friend" is over. He was essentially putting his foot down on what he considered to be another nagging complaint coming from his hormonal wife, but he chose the wrong thing to stand firm on. And, as originally stated 18 pages ago, she really went psycho with her demands on his time and attention. Not a single one of her "emergencies" was true from what I can tell. I am glad for this because otherwise she would be a homeless orphan with a brain tumor.  The other lie she used to get him to visit her was that she was moving away to go to nursing school and this was his last chance to see her before she left. Guess what? She isn't in school at all, much less New York. Oh well.

I don't know her motivations and I don't care. Though I may very well punch her in the face if I ever see her again. I think that would bring me closure.  

In moving forward we are on good terms. We will work out the terms of our separation agreement, but we are on the same page about what our expectations are. My leaving was the best thing that could have happened for us in my opinion. We need to be apart and continue to work on being patient with each other. My husband can now admit that he had stopped giving our marriage his best effort. He has been a wonderful companion these past 2 months. In light of his efforts to try harder with me, I am now comfortable trying to do things for him in return. 

It's been weird and there is a lot of confusion from friends and family, but it's working for us. The most important thing is that our daughter is getting the love and care she needs from happy parents.


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## Kasler

So glad to hear that stone. 

You're taking both your daughter and hubby by the reins. 

Awesome.


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## turnera

I am SO glad to hear this! You are my poster child for success. You did exactly right - you stood up for yourself, you gave him a HUGE consequence, yet you kept the door open for him to right the wrongs, and you acknowledged your own part in the problems. And you did the King of all Tools - you communicated! I have high hopes for you guys.


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## The Middleman

I'm happy for you and you did the right thing. You husband had to pay dearly for his behavior and I believe he now is. As far as the OW is concerned, if you two eventually wind up back together, you may need a restraining order.


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## Astonefeather

My husband heads back to North Carolina on Monday. I am very sad to see him go, but I am definitely not ready to follow him. 

SO much has improved and we are FINALLY working on our issues. We did the 5 Love Language thing and discussed it just this evening. His priority was Affirmation and Physical Touch, mine was Acts of Service. That right there says a lot about where things went wrong. I would feel let down that he wasn't helping me/offering to pitch in/keeping promises to do things. If he finally did them (usually after being reminded several times), I wouldn't feel much like praising him for his efforts. So we both ended up feeling like the other didn't appreciate us.

I feel that I can start to trust him again, but I don't feel secure yet. I am worried that things will fall back to how they were if I return to him. Right now he follows through on promises to help me/spend time with me/etc, but it hasn't been a long enough time to feel certain that my feelings will continue to be a priority in his life. I've been making an effort to go outside of my comfort zone for him. The more support he gives me, the more I am willing to trust him. 

I trust him with our daughter completely. At the very least we can be happily divorced and friends. But I really do want to be a family in our own home. I hope he follows through on therapy and communication with me. I try not to get my hopes up, but it's hard when I feel like we're finally connecting again. Fingers crossed.


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## Kasler

^ Its good that you've made progress and are leaning towards R.

Just be careful stone that the R is for your marriage, it doesn't become you. 

What I mean is if its clearly not true R, its not gonna become one anytime soon no matter how much of yourself you throw into it. 

You're child needs a happy healthy mother so you need to be in a situation where you can be both, with or without H.


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## Acabado

Glad to hear things are improving. It believe is wise to stay the were you are for now.
I can't stress enough how badly he needs to learn about boundaires in marriage.


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## Astonefeather

Thanks  I agree that I can't go back until I am happily doing things on my own. I want to get back in shape and find a routine that works for both myself and my child. 

I have told my husband exactly what I need from him. I have listened to things he needs from me. Right now he needs to work his butt off to make amends, but in the long run I am still willing to meet him halfway. I just want us both to be happy and it's still going to take a long time for me to be happy with him again. I will pull back after he's gone. I agree with you, Kasler, that I can't keep throwing myself into it. It's been 8 weeks, there isn't anything more I can say/do. It's up to him to be motivated on his own.


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## alte Dame

Astonefeather said:


> He was essentially putting his foot down on what he considered to be another nagging complaint coming from his hormonal wife, but he chose the wrong thing to stand firm on.


I know you're very busy being a new mother, but if you have time, could you elaborate on the above?

I sensed from the start of your thread that the pregnancy hormone thing could be the rationale for your husband's behavior, but what he did was quite extreme. What exactly does he say about his? What was his explanation?


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## Acabado

Thing is you already confronted him many times about OW continued intrussion. He's gaslighting himself with the hormone thing.

He must search on his own about EAs and boundaries. Tell him. You claimed his Dad was the same, except he doesn't believe it. He needs to learn what is healthy/appropiate and what's not by reading about it and perhaps picking up the right role models.

I remember he physicaly abused you early in the marriage. Just stopping doing it won't fix a thing when the "abuser" mentality is still there.

A day at a time.


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## crimsonbling

One day at a time. It will take you, and him, a long time to heal. Love that baby of yours in the mean time!


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## Astonefeather

I think I have done all I can do. Officially. There is nothing left to do or say. I don't think that I can keep investing in this right now. The reality of being a single mother has sunken in this past week. The sleep deprivation is the hardest part. Caring for my daughter full time is a blessing. I'm so glad she's happy and healthy. She's just the greatest person I know. 

I need to stop waiting for my husband to magically step up to the plate. He has come so far these past two months, but I realize to my disappointment that everything he has gained I have given him. I love him, but I will not keep spoon feeding him. If he can't find the motivation to do what needs to be done in the time frame in which I need him to do it, then I give up. We can be friends and he can be a father to his child.

I am officially done telling him what to do. I won't encourage him to continue his efforts. I won't chase him around for child support. I won't hint or remind him of promises. If he doesn't want to care for his child's financial needs then I will just have to work harder on my own. He's just not the type to figure things out on his own. He just sits down and hopes things will improve.

Time alone will not fix things between us.


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## alte Dame

Are you and he on the same page as far as believing things are broken, that they have to be fixed?


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## turnera

Write him a letter and tell him that.


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## Acabado

turnera said:


> Write him a letter and tell him that.


:iagree:


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## turnera

The only hope your marriage has is complete honest communication.


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