# Toxic friends and their role in infidelity



## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Breaking this topic out of another thread.

I am of the opinion that while everyone has free will to control themselves, that toxic friends who promote and cheer on bad behavior i.e. cheating, flirting, drugs etc are harmful to have around for married people, and they do impart some sort of influence on their friends....

It seems that most cases of cheating, there is often some sort of partner in crime friend, offering terrible advice and setting a bad example, who knows what is going on and actively assisting in keeping it a secret.

Am I wrong to think that if your spouse has a toxic friend, that:

1. Your spouse should eliminate toxic friends on their own, as soon as they see poor behavior.
2. If you are uncomfortable with that sort of friend, you should be able to ask your spouse not to engage with that person.

In general, I feel like most people surround themselves with friends of similiar morals and character, and if a spouse is hanging around toxic friends, it is a major red flag.


----------



## Jimi007 (6 mo ago)

#2


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I'll share some stories that back this up later.

Busy with wife for more than drive by posting.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I agree with that happening 90% of the time. Birds of a feather and all that…


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

I agree with both points, but I would hope that my spouse sees the same toxicity as I do and cuts them from her circle long before I need to say something. They are her friends, she knows them better than me and should see red flags long before I do. 

We both have a history of doing this. Two of my wife's best friends became very toxic to our relationship. To the point they went from being on the shortlist for Maid of Honor at our wedding to not even being invited. She saw they weren't interested in seeing us succeed to the point of likely sabotaging us if they had the opportunity. They were gone from her life forever at that point. She even told one of them to go away when they tried to patch things up years later. She has done that with other friends for various reasons. A good friend and coworker of hers left her husband for an AP because he didn't have the money to give her the things she deserved in life. Poor guy was a fellow soldier busting his ass for her and their kid. My wife went from talking to her daily and regular play dates with our kids to 100% no contact and she wasn't shy about telling her why. I've done the same in various ways, including joining the Army and moving 8 hours from home to get away from friends and environment I saw were doing nothing positive for our relationship. 

I'm actually surprised that this would be a divisive topic. Why would anyone want toxic people in their lives and why would spouse be wrong for pointing it out if their SO doesn't see it?


----------



## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I agree with both points, but I would hope that my spouse sees the same toxicity as I do and cuts them from her circle long before I need to say something. They are her friends, she knows them better than me and should see red flags long before I do.
> 
> We both have a history of doing this. Two of my wife's best friends became very toxic to our relationship. To the point they went from being on the shortlist for Maid of Honor at our wedding to not even being invited. She saw they weren't interested in seeing us succeed to the point of likely sabotaging us if they had the opportunity. They were gone from her life forever at that point. She even told one of them to go away when they tried to patch things up years later. She has done that with other friends for various reasons. A good friend and coworker of hers left her husband for an AP because he didn't have the money to give her the things she deserved in life. Poor guy was a fellow soldier busting his ass for her and their kid. My wife went from talking to her daily and regular play dates with our kids to 100% no contact and she wasn't shy about telling her why. I've done the same in various ways, including joining the Army and moving 8 hours from home to get away from friends and environment I saw were doing nothing positive for our relationship.
> 
> I'm actually surprised that this would be a divisive topic. Why would anyone want toxic people in their lives and why would spouse be wrong for pointing it out if their SO doesn't see it?


I suppose the counterpoint would be the suggestion that one spouse should not have any voice in the friend relationship of the other spouse.
I've heard those idiot comments here before.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Good luck with extroverts ditching their friends no matter how toxic 🙄

With the sheer volume of dipsh-ts compared to decent people it's inevitable if you are a social person. Always why I look for the more independent minded types with their own standards of morality.

Yet it's not always so easy to dump people, they could be childhood friends, they could be family, etc etc. Easy for introverted lone wolves like me but not for them. 

Best defence is simply a woman with the right mindset. The bimbos I tend to avoid for anything long term anyway.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

I am someone who finds the infantilization of a spouse into a parent/child dynamic AT BEST really creepy. I believe that marriage should be two (mostly) like-minded adults building a life together. One would hope that two married people would have the same ideas about morality and fidelity; however, the world isn't a perfect place and sometimes that doesn't happen.

On the other thread, the concern was that a woman had friends who were doing things that were inappropriate and dangerous, and the argument is that she lacks the intelligence or judgment to make her own decisions and therefore must be controlled by a parent figure, in this case, her husband. What I noticed about that particular situation is that while everyone was obsessing over the possibility she might interact with rogue penis, the fact that a bunch of young women got into a truck with a stranger in the middle of the night to do illegal drugs was lost in the fray. That is crazy dangerous behavior; that's how young women end up getting fished out of a ditch by the cops the next day. That in itself speaks to very poor judgment on the part of those women, single or not.

In an ideal world, this could be pointed out to the wife and she would think to herself, "Wow, I behaved like an idiot," and either limit or eliminate her time with that group of girls. I do not believe that her husband should HAVE to "make" her drop her friends or forbid her from going out, because I believe that if someone is married, they should be an adult. If that isn't happening, the husband should question if he wants to stay married to someone who needs to be policed and parented like a child because they lack the judgment to make good choices.

An example from my own life of "bad influence friends" (it won't be well received and it will soon be clear why, but some people will get where I'm going) is this:

We have some couple friends, the husbands are pilots. One has an open marriage and the other cheats on his wife all the time. An opportunity came up for my H to go to Amsterdam for a weekend with them (for free, it was a pretty cool deal). 

It did of course occur to me that there would be a LOT of cheating going on. But my H is an adult, and I'm not his mommy or his jailer so if he wanted to go I don't feel like I should stop him even if I could. I don't want that type of relationship anyway.

In talking about it, my H told them that he would only go "if you can promise me I'm not going to have to lie about anything." Basically, he'd go, but no cheating on your wives on a trip with him. 

See, I don't choose to worry too much about that kind of thing because we were adults who knew each other well before we married and we're on the same page about fidelity. He isn't only faithful because he lacks opportunity. If he chooses to cheat, then we will deal with that. I'm not going to spend my life trying to keep him locked up so he can't.

So bottom line, if you're with someone that you have to treat like a child and parent, then perhaps instead of pointing to his or her friends you should decide if you really want to be married to someone who will be peer pressured into cheating because "everybody's doing it." At the end of the day, the problem isn't the friends. It's the spouse whose judgment and fidelity can't be trusted.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

re16 said:


> Breaking this topic out of another thread.
> 
> I am of the opinion that while everyone has free will to control themselves, that toxic friends who promote and cheer on bad behavior i.e. cheating, flirting, drugs etc are harmful to have around for married people, and they do impart some sort of influence on their friends....
> 
> ...


I’ve learned a lot from my cheater and you are looking at this wrong. The red flag is not the sleazy cheater minded friends in this persons life, the red flag is the person who chooses these friendships.

When you ask someone to give up friendships they enjoy, people they like to hang out with; they will resent you. 1- for not trusting them as a person even if their friends are skeezy 2- for trying to control them.

You can take the cheater out the cheater-park, but you can’t take the cheater-park out the cheater. No? Doesn’t work? Ah. I tried.

Best course of action, pay close attention to the people the person you are dating calls their “good buddies” “best friend” “someone they can trust with their life”. If those people are low life, skeezy, cheating, wh0ring substance abusers…. Then your problem isn’t the friends… it’s your person.

*and if you’re already married to cheater-park, then sleep with one eye open.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Major difference in being friends with someone who is having an affair, and being friends with someone who is encouraging YOU to have an affair.

If a friend is encouraging my spouse to cheat, or be open to cheating, then that's a direct disrespect of ME (or in reverse, trying to get me to cheat, major disrespect to my wife)

If a friend is cheating on his/her own spouse, and keeping that compartmentalized, then that's between him/her and spouse. Not us. Now, we may want to disassociate ourselves from that person, or at the very least, show disapproval, but that's a difference decision point based on their character, not as a threat to our marriage.


----------



## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

QuietRiot said:


> I’ve learned a lot from my cheater and you are looking at this wrong. The red flag is not the sleazy cheater minded friends in this persons life, the red flag is the person who chooses these friendships.
> 
> When you ask someone to give up friendships they enjoy, people they like to hang out with; they will resent you. 1- for not trusting them as a person even if their friends are skeezy 2- for trying to control them.
> 
> ...


Fully agree with this... the red flag is your spouse choosing these types of friends....

But not giving up on friends that are doing that? Not so sure... 

Another poster was insinuating that it is ok for a spouse to hang out with friends who cheat and do cocaine in bar parking lots with random bar folk, because it is up to that person to not go forward with such bad decisions, even if the friends they are with are doing it... I think just putting yourself in that situation, something is wrong...


----------



## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Good luck with extroverts ditching their friends no matter how toxic 🙄


So extroverts hang out with people of poor character just for the friendship?

I'm not sure about that one... I think I would be considered a full fledged extrovert, but I wouldn't associate with people who consistently do things that would be considered of low character or poor morals.


----------



## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Major difference in being friends with someone who is having an affair, and being friends with someone who is encouraging YOU to have an affair.
> 
> If a friend is encouraging my spouse to cheat, or be open to cheating, then that's a direct disrespect of ME (or in reverse, trying to get me to cheat, major disrespect to my wife)
> 
> If a friend is cheating on his/her own spouse, and keeping that compartmentalized, then that's between him/her and spouse. Not us. Now, we may want to disassociate ourselves from that person, or at the very least, show disapproval, but that's a difference decision point based on their character, not as a threat to our marriage.


So you are ok with your spouse being pals with someone in an active affair, discussing their affair, the excitement etc, as long as that person never says 'you should do it too' to your spouse?


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I have noticed that people often say such and such is a bad influence on my cute, innocent little ——//-//. Kid, spouse, whatever.....

rarely is that the case. People gravitate toward like minded people. Their innocent little billy or Suzy isn’t being influenced, they’re the ones influencing...... I wish I had known this as a younger man.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

re16 said:


> So extroverts hang out with people of poor character just for the friendship?
> 
> I'm not sure about that one... I think I would be considered a full fledged extrovert, but I wouldn't associate with people who consistently do things that would be considered of low character or poor morals.


Perhaps, just sharing my experience from my partners who were always the extroverted types. Not all can cut people out like that.

I go for those that can or at least has their own mind, but not every friend is easy to flick off.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

re16 said:


> _*So you are ok with your spouse being pals with someone in an active affair, discussing their affair, the excitement etc, as long as that person never says 'you should do it too' to your spouse?*_


That quote wasn't directed at me, but my answer is, my husband isn't my 12 year old son so I can't even imagine telling him who he can play with and who he can't. He's a grown man and if he wants to screw around, he doesn't need one of his knuckle-dragging friends to encourage or enable him - I'm sure he could manage just fine on his own without any of them.

Would I prefer his friends all carry bibles in their cars and wear blinders so they never see other women? LOL, yeah sure, why not? And I'd also like an oceanside condo in Hawaii and unlimited free Margaritas at the Tiki Bar.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I would agree that the vast majority of affairs have supporters, cheerleaders and coconspirators.

on the surface, yes it would seem that these friends are toxic and should be avoided.

but, skunks don’t think skunks stink and what is one person’s toxin is another person’s medicine.

case in point, I have seen siblings encourage their brother/sister to get with other people and have even been witness to siblings setting up the WS with the AP.

to the BS, those siblings would be the devil incarnate and a horrible betrayal.

But one must ask deeper questions. Are the siblings hateful and mean spirited towards their sibling in general and out to sabotage their life in general historically? Or do they love and support them and want the best for their well being typically?

why would a sibling want to actively undermine their sibling’s marriage?

That is the question.

Are they vengeful and envious and want to hurt their sibling by sabotaging their marriage?

or do they love and care for their sibling and hate the BS? Is the BS abusive or a drunk or a cheater him/herself?

the same general questions can be asked about other friends and associates.

what is their motive and their agenda for supporting the affair?

is it morally “right” in any case?? Maybe, maybe not.

Again, it comes back to are they wanting to hurt the WS or do they hate the BS and sincerely believe the AP is the better option?

A are they typically a crappy person in general and are a snake in the grass and want other snakes in the grass to slither around with?

these are all the questions that need to be asked.


----------



## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> That quote wasn't directed at me, but my answer is, my husband isn't my 12 year old son so I can't even imagine telling him who he can play with and who he can't. He's a grown man and if he wants to screw around, he doesn't need one of his knuckle-dragging friends to encourage or enable him - I'm sure he could manage just fine on his own without any of them.
> 
> Would I prefer his friends all carry bibles in their cars and wear blinders so they never see other women? LOL, yeah sure, why not? And I'd also like an oceanside condo in Hawaii and unlimited free Margaritas at the Tiki Bar.


I guess I'm trying to get at where is the line? Where you don't necessarily tell your spouse to stop it, but just would kick them to curb for poor behavior.... like if he is doing coke with random girls from a bar, they are trying to kiss him, and he's with another married guy / toxic friend who is hooking up with said girls, what would you do? I don't think you'd be thrilled everytime he said he is going out for drinks with coked out cheater dude....


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

re16 said:


> I guess I'm trying to get at where is the line? Where you don't necessarily tell your spouse to stop it, but just would kick them to curb for poor behavior.... like if he is doing coke with random girls from a bar, they are trying to kiss him, and he's with another married guy / toxic friend who is hooking up with said girls, what would you do? I don't think you'd be thrilled everytime he said he is going out for drinks with coked out cheater dude....


The real issue is how do you even know? The spouse is usually never given these details. It was “just drinks with the guys/girls” nothing to see according to them. This type of detail usually comes out of the woodwork after you catch the cheating. And even then, you can only suspect most of it or hear it from other people.


----------



## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

QuietRiot said:


> The real issue is how do you even know? The spouse is usually never given these details. It was “just drinks with the guys/girls” nothing to see according to them. This type of detail usually comes out of the woodwork after you catch the cheating. And even then, you can only suspect most of it or hear it from other people.


Good point, but lets say you know via admissions and retrieval of texts.... true they usually only fess to what they think you probably already know....


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

re16 said:


> Good point, but lets say you know via admissions and retrieval of texts.... true they usually only fess to what they think you probably only know....


Then get those running shoes on!


----------



## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

I went through this with my last boyfriend. About four or five months into the relationship he reveals that his best friend is a serial cheater. Now I had met this friend as well as his wife and had really liked both of them. But after finding out about the husband serial cheating I lost all respect for the man obviously. My issue then was how much of a role was my boyfriend playing in all of this? So I asked him, do you know about these affairs while they’re happening? At that point I had already referred to his best friend as one ****ed up individual so he already knew my thoughts on the matter. When he responded to my question it was “no, I never know about these affairs until they’re over.” That made me feel a whole lot better about everything.

A year later we were out for dinner one night and he was talking about that subject again and I decided to ask him the same question. Do you know about these affairs while they’re happening? He answered “yes, every single time. He’s got to share his adventures and tells me everything.” Every ounce of respect that I still had for my boyfriend at that point turned to dust. We were already on very shaky ground relationship wise and that was just another nail in the coffin.

I was just stunned because my boyfriend was such good friends with the wife and they would talk on the phone giving each other life advice and planning outings for all of us. It was mostly the wife calling my boyfriend because she couldn’t get her husband up off his butt to go out with all of us so she would call my boyfriend and get him to convince the husband to go. I never ever had a problem with any of this because I really liked her. I couldn’t understand how my boyfriend could look her in the eye and act like everything was OK when he knew the entire time what her husband was doing behind her back. I never looked at him the same way again. In my opinion, it takes a special kind of person to be able to do that but I don’t mean special in a good way.


----------



## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

I don't advocate for being a parent or overlord to my wife or controlling her choices (or the reverse her for me).

I do advocate for the right of each of us to speak into each other's lives when one sees potential issues.

I know for a fact I've walked blindly into things and my wife put the brakes on... I didn't see the danger in certain relationships. Was I an idiot? Maybe, but who here has perfect vision? The same thing applies with her, I've called out people that gave me chills. Later...she agreed and simply didn't see it that way at the time.

I appreciate that she values my opinion and I value hers. Even if she were wrong about someone she didn't feel good about, it wouldn't matter. She's more important than any of you (meaning anyone else in my life).

If one of us voiced concerns and the other ignored it, then all the discussion about a spouse possibly making poor choices comes into play.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

re16 said:


> So you are ok with your spouse being pals with someone in an active affair, discussing their affair, the excitement etc, as long as that person never says 'you should do it too' to your spouse?


If the person is in an affair, but it's behind the scenes and not part of the friendship, then I might stay friends with the person, depending on the strength of my bond with them. If it's a newer friend, probably not, I'd not have invested much, and I view it as a character flaw. But like a lifelong friend? Not sure that's a big enough reason to throw away that relationship. If he started wanting me to join in his behavior, that's different, because he'd be disrespecting my wife. And if any friend of mine showed that much disrespect for my marriage/wife, then I wouldn't care how long we were friends, that's a non-starter.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

re16 said:


> I guess I'm trying to get at where is the line? Where you don't necessarily tell your spouse to stop it, but just would kick them to curb for poor behavior.... like if he is doing coke with random girls from a bar, they are trying to kiss him, and he's with another married guy / toxic friend who is hooking up with said girls, what would you do? I don't think you'd be thrilled everytime he said he is going out for drinks with coked out cheater dude....


I get your point, but the real issue here is you spouse being someone who goes out to bars and does coke with randoms and places him/herself into that environment. 

If someone does that, it doesn’t matter if they hang out with priests and nuns the other days of the week. 

what caliber of person are you married to to begin with?

if someone is going to hang out in bars doing coke with other people, are any of their friends NOT going to be cheaters and wh0re$ and womanizers etc?

evaluating a potential partner’s family and inner circle of friends really does need to be every bit as much of a criteria as their looks, height, weight, education, income etc etc

a person is the average of the people they spend their time with and people like to spend their time with people they are comfortsble with, which means they are basically birds of a feather.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Not said:


> I went through this with my last boyfriend. About four or five months into the relationship he reveals that his best friend is a serial cheater. Now I had met this friend as well as his wife and had really liked both of them. But after finding out about the husband serial cheating I lost all respect for the man obviously. My issue then was how much of a role was my boyfriend playing in all of this? So I asked him, do you know about these affairs while they’re happening? At that point I had already referred to his best friend as one ****ed up individual so he already knew my thoughts on the matter. When he responded to my question it was “no, I never know about these affairs until they’re over.” That made me feel a whole lot better about everything.
> 
> A year later we were out for dinner one night and he was talking about that subject again and I decided to ask him the same question. Do you know about these affairs while they’re happening? He answered “yes, every single time. He’s got to share his adventures and tells me everything.” Every ounce of respect that I still had for my boyfriend at that point turned to dust. We were already on very shaky ground relationship wise and that was just another nail in the coffin.
> 
> I was just stunned because my boyfriend was such good friends with the wife and they would talk on the phone giving each other life advice and planning outings for all of us. It was mostly the wife calling my boyfriend because she couldn’t get her husband up off his butt to go out with all of us so she would call my boyfriend and get him to convince the husband to go. I never ever had a problem with any of this because I really liked her. I couldn’t understand how my boyfriend could look her in the eye and act like everything was OK when he knew the entire time what her husband was doing behind her back. I never looked at him the same way again. In my opinion, it takes a special kind of person to be able to do that but I don’t mean special in a good way.


But it doesn't sound like you said he couldn't be friends with that person any more, or that he couldn't go out with that person. You uncovered flaws in your boyfriend's behavior and dealt with those, you didn't make rules about who he could talk to and where, when, and with whom he could go places.

I think that's the real question here. If your SO is spending time with shady people, do you deal with the fact that your SO could be shady or do you make a bunch of rules about their interactions to prevent them from associating with people you consider shady?


----------



## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> But it doesn't sound like you said he couldn't be friends with that person any more, or that he couldn't go out with that person. You uncovered flaws in your boyfriend's behavior and dealt with those, you didn't make rules about who he could talk to and where, when, and with whom he could go places.
> 
> I think that's the real question here. If your SO is spending time with shady people, do you deal with the fact that your SO could be shady or do you make a bunch of rules about their interactions to prevent them from associating with people you consider shady?


No rules. If we hadn’t already been on shaky ground I would’ve dumped him just for that. I can’t be with someone I don’t respect. In the end, I dumped him for that and a bunch of other stuff too lol!


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

If your SO enjoys being around people that have no respect for you or your relationship then it’s just a problem waiting to happen. It doesn’t matter if they resist playing into it for 14 years, one day… they might just decide to join the fun and it’s all too easy to get the support they need to nurture the behavior.

I don’t consider a friend as a person who encourages you to do something that is destructive to your life and marriage. But I don’t think staying quiet while your “friends” are destroying their family and spouse is acceptable either. I would never be ok with any of my friends acting like an idiot and disrespecting their spouse and children. That person wouldn’t be a friend. Unfortunately I had lower standards on what my ex considered friendships because I thought he was trustworthy. As a person. I didn’t dig deeper to find why he’d be attracted to those friendships to begin with.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> or do you make a bunch of rules about their interactions to prevent them from associating with people you consider shady?


So in other words parole.

Isn't that what parole is? When someone gets an early release out of the klink, they are not just told not to reoffend or they will go right back in, but they are also told who they can and cannot be in contact with in order to remain on the outside.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> I didn’t dig deeper to find why he’d be attracted to those friendships to begin with.


Sometimes they fool us. It happens to most of us, honestly, we get fooled by someone who pretends to be someone they aren't to get us to do what they want us to do, usually to our detriment. 

But the way to deal with that isn't to put that person in some kinda prison, or to be their warden. It's to excuse that person from our lives. People really don't change unless it's something that comes from within. You can't control a person into being someone new. So I will never be on board with spouses controlling who their SOs have as friends or telling them they "can't" go do things unsupervised. I don't think that is healthy for either person. Honestly, the warden has the most miserable time of it, spending all their time monitoring and checking up. How awful to not be able to relax. No one deserves to live like that. If you are honestly filled with dread every time your spouse leaves the house for fear they will cheat, then you need to end it and find someone who can be trusted.


----------



## CursiveWritingOnTheWall (4 mo ago)

re16 said:


> Breaking this topic out of another thread.
> 
> I am of the opinion that while everyone has free will to control themselves, that toxic friends who promote and cheer on bad behavior i.e. cheating, flirting, drugs etc are harmful to have around for married people, and they do impart some sort of influence on their friends....
> 
> ...


I'm a victim of this very thing, and as of very lately.


----------



## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

We had a good group of gals when young, and one got married at 18. We had pretty high standards and morals. When she decided to have an affair, she actively sought out a newer and trashy toxic crowd, and saw us less and less. Which was great! Because I was happy to cut her off as soon as I was married myself. It made that part easier.

So that type of person probably seeks those Toxic friends rather than the other way around. She’d known some of those more decent girls as family friends, they grew up together. Her newer friends were really way beneath her class/social standing, it was weird.


----------



## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

It depends on how strong the willpower is of a person to not be gullible and not be led by outside influences.
We can all be influenced, even subconsciously by friends, family members, advertising and the media which is a powerful medium because many people believe what they watch and read on the media.
As regards infidelity that maybe encouraged by toxic friends or any other type outside influences, if a partner truly loves their partner, nothing or no one could ever steal that partner away or be led astray and why there is never any excuses for cheating within a marriage. 
The old saying, if someone told you to put your head in an oven or jump off a cliff, would you do it? Or in other words, no one can be persuaded to do something they don`t want to do.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

re16 said:


> So you are ok with your spouse being pals with someone in an active affair, discussing their affair, the excitement etc, as long as that person never says 'you should do it too' to your spouse?


Wife should be telling friends hubby what she is doing, testify against her in court if asked.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> I suppose the counterpoint would be the suggestion that one spouse should not have any voice in the friend relationship of the other spouse.
> I've heard those idiot comments here before.


It is pretty idiotic to think that a spouse should go through life with no input from their partner. 


I think what is missed in a lot of these discussions and what causes friction between people posting on the topic is a lack of nuance in the actual conversations that go on between spouses regarding this topic. None of us want to be the friend police and honestly it has been said thousands of times that you can't MAKE your spouse do anything. Even though many people take the hard line and say something like "I would never allow my spouse to go on a night out with so-and-so". I think what they really mean is they would never put up with their spouse going out with them. Meaning they can go, but I won't be here when you get back. There is a distinct difference.

If I see a friend of my wife's that IMO is toxic or a potential threat to our marriage I'm going to bring it up to my wife. My hope is that she is maybe just too close to see it, is trying to "fix" that friend, etc. And once she hears what I have to say about that friend I expect she will either agree with me and cut things off or she has a compelling argument that changes my mind. If we can't come to an agreement then we have a fundamental incompatibility. There is some mismatch if I see someone as toxic to the point I don't think we should associate with them and my wife sees no issue with associating with them. This is just another potential point of compatibility/incompatibility in a relationship. 

I understand where people are coming from when they say, "well she has her own brain and do you trust her or not?" That is true, but we don't always recognize the precarious positions we are sometimes in. When your spouse is out with friends would you prefer them to be with the friend that would pull your spouse back from the brink and stop them from doing something they will regret or one that pushes your spouse to just go with what feels good and have a good time? Some will say that a good person wouldn't do that in the first place. There is some truth to that, but I've personally witnessed otherwise. I was out with a group of coworkers, but we spent so much time with each other I also consider us all to be friends. It was a group of mostly men, but there were a couple women. After dinner one night we were in the hotel bar and one of the guys had never been drunk in his life and was married 20 years at the time to his HS sweetheart. He had two, maybe three drinks and was pretty hammered. I won't go into details and you'll just have to take my word for it, but he is an incredibly good man on so many levels. That night he was getting hit on hard by one of the single women in our group. She was pretty tipsy too. Between being drunk and his naiveté he was oblivious to what was going on. It got to a point where they appeared to be heading to the woman's hotel room. Me and one or two of the other people in our group saw what was going on. We all knew this would be a life wrecking event for him and we stopped it before it started. We kept them apart the rest of the evening and walked him back to his room and put him to bed. He didn't really remember any of that the next day. A less marriage friendly group of friends could have easily cheered on and encouraged what was happening. I obviously have no idea what would have happened if none of us intervened, but which group of friends would you want to be with and your spouse to be with?


----------



## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I think what is missed in a lot of these discussions and what causes friction between people posting on the topic is a lack of nuance in the actual conversations that go on between spouses regarding this topic.


Well said.

So many conversations here are either 0 or 100... meaning if I say anything at all to my wife then I am controlling her every move. Instead, I should say nothing and let her live a life without any comments from me. And when she makes an error in judgment, I should bring the hammer down without mercy.

Neither of those are truth and neither of those are real-world.

Oh... and because I said, "error in judgment" someone right now is thinking "cheating is not an error...yada yada". Of course it's not. We're talking about friend selection. Nuance is important. Real-world is important.

Taking an extreme view of discussion topics is rarely useful or real-world, especially in relationships.
(I did not say don't have boundaries for you who are thinking I just said that)


----------



## 342693 (Mar 2, 2020)

Take it a step further...when your marriage hits a rough spot and you want to unload about your spouse, the worst people to talk about to are friends and family. Especially if any of them are toxic. They will always tell you what you want to hear.


----------



## BoSlander (6 mo ago)

In my case, I know of two close friends that knew of my wife’s cheating with OM # 1 and never said anything. In the case of OM # 2, I know of at least three coworkers that were aware of my wife’s affair. So much so the four used to go for coffee together while OM # 2 and my XW held hands (with my wedding ring on it by the way). Twas my wife’s text to one of these two animals that alerted me that OM # 2 was probably in the same country we were in and that my wife was going to go see him secretly.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> Well said.
> 
> So many conversations here are either 0 or 100... meaning if I say anything at all to my wife then I am controlling her every move. Instead, I should say nothing and let her live a life without any comments from me. And when she makes an error in judgment, I should bring the hammer down without mercy.
> 
> ...


I get your meaning here, and I agree with you. But what you describe, what some others describe is a respectful give and take that many people just don’t have the tools to know. I sure didn’t. I’ll admit, many issues in my marriage I didn’t even know were issues. I was naive. 

I don’t want to overtake the thread with a personal story, but my situation wasn’t like yours is. The “best friend” pre-dated me, and I knew about the cheater behaviors (and some other behaviors of friends seen less often) but it was never told to me with an air of acceptance. More he thought that this guy and these other friends doing these things were foolish but they were his buddies! And most of the hanging out was golfing or something… maybe a few shady things looking back, but I really didn’t think of the situation as a problem. Probably most people wouldn’t? I’m not sure. 12 or so years of these people orbiting but not really infiltrating. 

I didn’t realize that these orbiters were more insidious than I realized. They had a huge roll to play in how my xH carried out his affair and got celebrated for having one. I just didn’t know it until later. They didn’t cause the cheating but they sure added to the excitement and the intensity of it. They changed from orbiters to the central group of friends and by then it was far too late to have reasonable conversations anyway. I highly doubt I’d have been able to have reasonable conversations about these friends in the way you and others have stated you’re able to. 

Maybe the mutual respect was never there the way it is for you and I just didn’t see it, or maybe it’s just not the same situation because his BFF was almost part of the package. The lesson I learned here is that if a person keeps company with shady characters then it’s best to just let them go in the beginning. But I don’t think that’s the same thing you’re saying. I’m not sure.


----------



## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> I get your meaning here, and I agree with you. But what you describe, what some others describe is a respectful give and take that many people just don’t have the tools to know. I sure didn’t. I’ll admit, many issues in my marriage I didn’t even know were issues. I was naive.
> 
> I don’t want to overtake the thread with a personal story, but my situation wasn’t like yours is. The “best friend” pre-dated me, and I knew about the cheater behaviors (and some other behaviors of friends seen less often) but it was never told to me with an air of acceptance. More he thought that this guy and these other friends doing these things were foolish but they were his buddies! And most of the hanging out was golfing or something… maybe a few shady things looking back, but I really didn’t think of the situation as a problem. Probably most people wouldn’t? I’m not sure. 12 or so years of these people orbiting but not really infiltrating.
> 
> ...


Good comments @QuietRiot. I think we're all naive in the beginning unless one has super-parents who provide all the tools we need. TAM would go out of business if that ever happened. We live, we learn, we grow. Eventually we find TAM where all the answers reside.  


I agree with the lesson:
"_The lesson I learned here is that if a person keeps company with shady characters then it’s best to just let them go in the beginning_"

We don't need to set about dating people that are already making bad choices. Life is too short and the risk is too high to think we can reform someone, or live in constant "monitor" mode.

And you are right again, my main point is about couples expressing concerns to one another and the respect each should have in that situation. As you can see there are many views on the subject. Mostly I think some people don't like to have their autonomy and independence challenged so they push back on ideas of deference, even to an SO. I'm not in that camp.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> Good comments @QuietRiot. I think we're all naive in the beginning unless one has super-parents who provide all the tools we need. TAM would go out of business if that ever happened. We live, we learn, we grow. Eventually we find TAM where all the answers reside.
> 
> 
> I agree with the lesson:
> ...


Right, I have to agree that the ability to communicate pretty much anything without fear is pretty important. (Another lesson hard won)


But you have another good point… so when does the challenge to independence and autonomy type personality become the red flag? That has to be a very slim gray area. Especially with a shady friends that maybe aren’t overtly shady, or super shady. It’s all very complicated. I think it boils down to how much tolerance for shade you have. (I probably will have a slim to zero margin moving forward)


----------



## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

Not said:


> I went through this with my last boyfriend. About four or five months into the relationship he reveals that his best friend is a serial cheater. Now I had met this friend as well as his wife and had really liked both of them. But after finding out about the husband serial cheating I lost all respect for the man obviously. My issue then was how much of a role was my boyfriend playing in all of this? So I asked him, do you know about these affairs while they’re happening? At that point I had already referred to his best friend as one ****ed up individual so he already knew my thoughts on the matter. When he responded to my question it was “no, I never know about these affairs until they’re over.” That made me feel a whole lot better about everything.
> 
> A year later we were out for dinner one night and he was talking about that subject again and I decided to ask him the same question. Do you know about these affairs while they’re happening? He answered “yes, every single time. He’s got to share his adventures and tells me everything.” Every ounce of respect that I still had for my boyfriend at that point turned to dust. We were already on very shaky ground relationship wise and that was just another nail in the coffin.
> 
> I was just stunned because my boyfriend was such good friends with the wife and they would talk on the phone giving each other life advice and planning outings for all of us. It was mostly the wife calling my boyfriend because she couldn’t get her husband up off his butt to go out with all of us so she would call my boyfriend and get him to convince the husband to go. I never ever had a problem with any of this because I really liked her. I couldn’t understand how my boyfriend could look her in the eye and act like everything was OK when he knew the entire time what her husband was doing behind her back. I never looked at him the same way again. In my opinion, it takes a special kind of person to be able to do that but I don’t mean special in a good way.



Dating is the job interview for marriage.

Dump this BF he has failed the job interview.


----------



## kab_ (3 mo ago)

I had the same questions after some incidents.

My wife has this friend from childhood. She is a deeply toxic person that constantly cheats on her husband, does substance abuse, gets is all sorts of trouble every time. While she and my wife are not spending time together frequently, she is her 'buddy to go out with' and have fun. 7/10 times they go out together, it will end up being a massive all-nighter until early dawn.

Recently some trusted person of mine saw them along with a couple more friends at an unusual location around 3 am that got me triggered. When I asked my wife about her night-out, she hid this location. When I confronted her, she revealed that they went there to carry on the fun and do drugs. She told me that she did some drugs and danced, and decided to leave after an hour, when her friends decided to carry on more (I believe by carrying on she meant with other guys), and took a cab back home. Her story and the hours she said, match her location tracking. She also told me that she avoided telling me because she didn't want to expose her friends' activity and make them 'look less' in my eyes.

I genuinely trust my wife as a caring person that hasn't really given me anything to seriously worry about. I also trust her judgement and the fact that she's mature and smart enough to be able to draw lines. But I know that this friend of hers is deeply indulged into a lifestyle of abuse, infidelity and toxicity in general.

I don't want to impose her anything about the people she spends time with. I know that this person has been a childhood friend that my wife will always have caring feelings for and obviously that she will be a resort to for some carefree fun every now and then.

But deep down I feel that my wife being exposed in an environment of infidelity and toxicity (they both also have this other, third friend, that keeps on lying to her husband and has cheated on him a few times), will sooner or later influence her. How do you think I should handle it?


----------



## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

kab_ said:


> I had the same questions after some incidents.
> 
> My wife has this friend from childhood. She is a deeply toxic person that constantly cheats on her husband, does substance abuse, gets is all sorts of trouble every time. While she and my wife are not spending time together frequently, she is her 'buddy to go out with' and have fun. 7/10 times they go out together, it will end up being a massive all-nighter until early dawn.
> 
> ...


Express your concerns about this other friend(s).
Express your concerns about GNO and partying with guys.
Ask her if it’s ok for you to do the same things.
Ask her to diminish the time she spends with this ‘friend’
Ask her to not extend the GNO into the afterparty.

In the end, this is dangerous territory. A married woman acting single with toxic friends is a slippery slope. That one time you and she are fighting and she goes out with friend, will she remain faithful? Or will friend talk her into staying to ‘carry on’.

I wouldn’t abide by this behavior but you can’t ‘command’ her to do anything. Don’t even try that. Express your concerns and ask her to make changes. If she doesn’t then you need to decide if that’s ok or not. Set some boundaries for what behavior is ok for people to be in your life.


----------



## BootsAndJeans (4 mo ago)

I agree with the OP, that individuals are responsible for their own choices and actions. With that being said, humans are social creatures by natural biology. My perspective is that we can and do choose the people we want to be friends with and socialize with. Because we are social creatures, we tend to normalize with the prevailing ethos of our social circles.

I think this goes way beyond just sexual mores. I have cot off relatives and friends who have beliefs and behaviors that I find repugnant. Some of these reasons are racism, infidelity, rampant alcohol or drug use, etc. 

As a social being, I can be nice to people, but also not be in their social circles that are counter of my life values. An example is that though I have drank socially before, I have never gone to bars with friends who do. 

For myself, the life my wife and I have may be boring to some. That's okay, we have a stable, loving home and marriage. This life is worth protecting and preserving.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I promised a story, so here is one.

I knew a guy that was married to a former party type girl who had changed her ways and wanted to settle down.

Her body count wasn't that high but she use to live it up.

They went along with a couple of bumps in the road like everyone and even had a separation early in.

They got it together and had many good years and a couple of kids.

The lady in question had a couple of very trashy sisters and one hyper religious good girl sister she looked up to.

Well, her fall started when her older (religious) sister went full ho and left her husband and children to f around with a coworker, totally destroying her family.

The lady in question then started hanging out with her extremely trashy sisters and several friends that had gone the same route over the years. Several of these friends had been solid women at one point but all had destroyed their lives by riding the sausage train to slvtville.

I saw the growing discontent and disrespect this woman started showing her husband and Mrs. C did too. We even got into it once because the lady tried to start an argument between Mrs. C and myself and thought she could disrespect me like she did her husband.

I set her straight on that point quickly.

Well, the inevitable happened and lady decided she was going to start dating and thought she could control her husband through intimidation and threat of divorce which she claimed would separate him from his kids most of the time and she would keep the house and destroy him financially as well.

She had been beating him down mentally and emotionally for years.

He called me not knowing what to do.

I gave him some firm advice which he took and he now has full custody of his kids, is living in his home and is doing fine financially.

The "lady" left the state with the POS she cheated with.

The guy has a new girlfriend that has her own kids and they're probably getting married soon.

They already have been blending their families and going through counseling to build a good foundation for it.

People do get influenced by those they are closest to.

I'm not close with any cheaters. I'm related to some but what can you do?😋


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Indeed, I can understand why some religions ban alcohol altogether.


----------



## BootsAndJeans (4 mo ago)

KindBuddha said:


> This one rule, by itself, would probably resolve 95% of this kind of issue.


I am in support of individuals setting their own boundaries. In terms of a married couple, I believe that boundaries should be established by communication and mutual consent/agreement. A boundary that is important or a do not pass boundary for one spouse should be communicated to the other.

I would like to say infidelity would be a presumptive, but there are couples who have open marriages.

I can only live my life and behave in my marriage, as we have agreed. Our and my values and boundaries are informed by our religious and moral background. They are also defined by the two of us talking and agreeing to specifics.

For us, alcohol abuse is no go, as well as drug use. Infidelity (sharing of intimacy outside of our marriage - physical or emotional) is a hard boundary. We also do not seek or engender close, personal friendships with people of the opposite gender.

In short, we have chosen to invest our time in activities, relationships and endeavors that support our marriage and family. What a person invests their time, care and intention on will flourish.


----------



## Avgman (Jan 18, 2019)

My problem is my wife's family. Parents both have been married, divorced several times, etc...wife was married and getting divorced when we met. But her brother, younger than us, has been married 3 times already, always cheating on his wife or girlfriend at the time. He has two small boys. The mom has settled down now but married 5 or 6 times now. 

I think what bothers me the most with them is this....when the wife was screwing around with my friend, her mom would actually come over and watch our son and so her daughter could go out with him while I was working nights... actually let her use her car so no one would see our vehicle running up and down the roads late at night. 

Complete opposite of my mom, who would not tolerate any of that type of behavior.


----------



## BootsAndJeans (4 mo ago)

Avgman said:


> My problem is my wife's family. Parents both have been married, divorced several times, etc...wife was married and getting divorced when we met. But her brother, younger than us, has been married 3 times already, always cheating on his wife or girlfriend at the time. He has two small boys. The mom has settled down now but married 5 or 6 times now.
> 
> I think what bothers me the most with them is this....when the wife was screwing around with my friend, her mom would actually come over and watch our son and so her daughter could go out with him while I was working nights... actually let her use her car so no one would see our vehicle running up and down the roads late at night.
> 
> Complete opposite of my mom, who would not tolerate any of that type of behavior.


I come from a broken and dysfunctional family life, with the same characteristics of your in-laws. I lived and saw the damage that kind of life creates. I made a conscious decision to not be like my parents. I have had my own demons, but we have a 38+ year marriage and my wife, who came from a stable family, has been my bedrock.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Avgman said:


> My problem is my wife's family. Parents both have been married, divorced several times, etc...wife was married and getting divorced when we met. But her brother, younger than us, has been married 3 times already, always cheating on his wife or girlfriend at the time. He has two small boys. The mom has settled down now but married 5 or 6 times now.
> 
> I think what bothers me the most with them is this....when the wife was screwing around with my friend, her mom would actually come over and watch our son and so her daughter could go out with him while I was working nights... actually let her use her car so no one would see our vehicle running up and down the roads late at night.
> 
> Complete opposite of my mom, who would not tolerate any of that type of behavior.


Please tell me you aren't still married to her.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Avgman said:


> My problem is my wife's family. Parents both have been married, divorced several times, etc...wife was married and getting divorced when we met. But her brother, younger than us, has been married 3 times already, always cheating on his wife or girlfriend at the time. He has two small boys. The mom has settled down now but married 5 or 6 times now.
> 
> I think what bothers me the most with them is this....when the wife was screwing around with my friend, her mom would actually come over and watch our son and so her daughter could go out with him while I was working nights... actually let her use her car so no one would see our vehicle running up and down the roads late at night.
> 
> Complete opposite of my mom, who would not tolerate any of that type of behavior.


Yeah at this point it’s encoded in her DNA that cheating is right and normal. Why are you still calling her your wife?


----------



## Avgman (Jan 18, 2019)

QuietRiot said:


> Yeah at this point it’s encoded in her DNA that cheating is right and normal. Why are you still calling her your wife?


Well, I couldn't imagine not raising my son. I hadn't been perfect, not saying that's an excuse, but it's what I told myself. Working crazy shift work I'd only been able to see my boy about 4 days a month. I couldn't do that, my feelings were already broke, they would have been absolutely crushed not being able to be with him.


----------

