# Is it possible for a bottomed-out marriage to recover



## Jim455 (May 3, 2013)

Please bear with me... On a scale of 1 – 10...

Let’s say the wedding day (about 20 years ago) was a 10.

Let’s say, about 6-7 months ago, the high school calls me to pick up our son and take him to the ER for a Suicide Evaluation. He's a mess.

That day the marriage hits a -10. It literally can’t get any worse.

(ok, scale is -10 to +10.....)

A little back story – We’re both 50 now. Things started sliding noticeably after 5 years. Wife (and her family it seems) has anger management issues. No big deal until about 6-7 years ago. Nothing physical. All verbal. Full bore thermonuclear events. Directed towards me and (more stunningly) the kids. I start taking notes.

When the Suicide Eval/ER Visit hit I had already fully vetted the divorce process. A few days after the ER I sat down with my attorney who really wants a piece of her ass. I didn’t give the green light due to stabilizing our son being Priority Number One and wife agreeing to my demands to leave him alone so we (really “I”, she’s turning a blind eye to it all) can figure out how to fix this or coast this marriage towards its demise.

Forward to now (sorry if I’m rambling), I’m exhausted. I'm empty. Predictably, the current peace from her is contrived and coerced. Both kids see that. Daughter told me a year ago out of the blue that she would live with me in case of divorce. Son really wants nothing to do with her. 

We are in MC for the 2nd time. Took 4 yrs to get her to MC #1. She has her own psych now. Son saw a psych over the summer and was discharged (he’s fine). Over the summer we had 3 psych’s going at one time. So, yea.......

To her credit, she does "seem" to be trying to improve on her innate ways even though her anger/indignation simmers under the surface and shows itself from time to time. Things like trust, love, passion, desire, companionship are gone for me. What we have is a façade, a truce, and now the holidays, that’s keeping things going.

So has anyone seen a couple recover from anything like of this? 

It seems impossible. I feel that I’m wasting my (and her) time and energy. She’s uber-catholic so, while I'm prepared if she beats me to it, it’s unlikely she’ll serve me papers. At home I’m always “on guard”. The thought of sex (even an affair) makes me want to run for the hills (so much for guy stereotypes). It’s been almost 2 years since I’ve said an unprompted “I Love You”. Our 20th anniversary passed like a silent fart in church. The thought of waking up in my 70’s or 80’s being married to someone who can’t say anything good about me (Hmmm, just like my parents. And hers) makes me want to throw up.

Any odds makers here? Time to end it?

(did I just answer my own question?)

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Anything is possible. Not every thing is probable.

What is she so angry about?


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## Jim455 (May 3, 2013)

anchorwatch said:


> Anything is possible. Not every thing is probable.
> 
> What is she so angry about?


It's emotional. It's inflexibility. Whenever her emotional buttons get pushed she goes off. She'll go from zero to 100 in a heartbeat. There's no middle ground. If she feels even remotely threatened, even in truly benign moments - like the other week at a restaurant over drinks, she goes off. 

Everything is viewed through the lens of suspicion. Any disagreement, whether minor or major, is viewed as an assault on her character. 

It's gotten worse over the years as the kids have become teenagers and, coming into their own, started pushing back. Of course, any time I've deviated from what she says or I've defended the kids (i.e. not supporting her) I get crucified. 

She puts so much weight on everything that is said or done. It's all black and white to her. Anything that falls in a gray area, she can't handle. She can't do judgement calls. She can't change her position once she's made it. Even if new circumstances come to light. She views that as ceding ground. That just happened again the other day. Stunning to watch it unfold now that I see the patterns.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

She's defensive? She sees everything as an attack? When you suggest something she lashes out at you or the children? 

Is this what happens?

What is she frightened off? You?


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## Jim455 (May 3, 2013)

anchorwatch said:


> She's defensive? She sees everything as an attack? When you suggest something she lashes out at you or the children?
> 
> Is this what happens?
> 
> What is she frightened off? You?


Hardly.

This nails it pretty good.... 

Paranoid personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Jim455 (May 3, 2013)

anchorwatch said:


> She's defensive? She sees everything as an attack? When you suggest something she lashes out at you or the children?
> 
> Is this what happens?
> 
> What is she frightened off? You?


Hardly.

Look up Paranoid Personality Disorder on Wikipedia. 

That pretty much nails it.

(tried to post a link)


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Jim455 said:


> We are in MC for the 2nd time. Took 4 yrs to get her to MC #1. She has her own psych now. Son saw a psych over the summer and was discharged (he’s fine). Over the summer we had 3 psych’s going at one time. So, yea.......
> 
> To her credit, she does "seem" to be trying to improve on her innate ways even though her anger/indignation simmers under the surface and shows itself from time to time. Things like trust, love, passion, desire, companionship are gone for me. What we have is a façade, a truce, and now the holidays, that’s keeping things going.


So she has been diagnosed, and you know it is more than defensiveness and resentment built up over time. PPD is treatable, even more so it she recognizes it. You say she is in treatment and working on at it. Is she taking anti anxiety meds? This is a long term illness. She only started treatment this summer. At fifty, these behaviors are ingrained and will take much time and effort to break. If she is trying to use rationalization instead of instinct, that is what you see under the surface. She is holding on the cap down on the volcano. She is only at the beginning of the process. 

You know all this. I don't know how deep this personality disorder runs in her. Along with your MC and IC, I would have recommended Retrovalle, as it has had last chance successes and even with adversarial divorced couples. But personality disorders are complicated to say the least. I'll contact another member who is versed at these disorders, as he has live through them. He may give you more insight. You might also read/post in the Physical & Mental Health Issues area of the forum, for similar situations. If you're strong enough to give it an effort before you make changes to separate yourself from her.


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## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

I can't only say that if my child were suicidal, all bets would be off on trying to fix my marriage if my kids were being tormented or emotionally abused by my spouse. I would say to my spouse "I love you, but we need to separate so I can take care of our kid properly". It sounds like she has driven away your kids, and so in my opinion the best thing you could do for your children is give them one stable parent and try to help your son through this tough time. If she was an alcoholic or a drug addict and putting your kids in physical danger you would not hesitate. For her to try to control her anger, it is just a mask, a band-aid, it sounds like she needs some serious therapy, not medication, but therapy. 

You son needs some serious help and really fast. It's great that you are making him priority #1...


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Jim, welcome to the TAM forum. I agree with the advice already given by Anchor and Keenwa. Indeed, I am participating in your thread only because Anchor brought it to my attention. Hopefully, I will say something you find useful in your dire situation.


Jim455 said:


> Look up Paranoid Personality Disorder on Wikipedia. That pretty much nails it.


Jim, perhaps you are right about your W having strong traits of PPD. Please keep in mind, however, that most folks having a personality disorder (PD) suffer from two or three of them, not just one. Moreover, the behaviors you describe -- inability to regulate emotions, temper tantrums starting in seconds and lasting several hours, inability to trust, black-white thinking, persistent anger, and lack of impulse control -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has. 

Of course, you cannot determine whether your W's BPD traits are so severe that they meet 100% of the diagnostic guidelines for having full-blown BPD. Only professionals can make a diagnosis. You nonetheless are capable of spotting the red flags for BPD (just as you did for PPD). There is nothing subtle about strong occurrences of traits such as always being "The Victim," verbal abuse, and temper tantrums. I therefore suggest you read about BPD traits to see if most sound very familiar.

I caution that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means everyone has the traits to some degree. At issue, then, is not whether your W has BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

Rather, at issue is whether she has most BPD traits at a strong level. Not having met her, I cannot know the answer to that question. I nonetheless believe you are capable of spotting any red flags that exist if you take time to learn the warning signs.


> She puts so much weight on everything that is said or done. It's all black and white to her. Anything that falls in a gray area, she can't handle. She can't do judgement calls.


People suffering from strong BPD traits are notorious for black-white thinking, which will be evident in their frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions such as "You NEVER..." and "You ALWAYS...." B-W thinking also will be evident in the way they categorize everyone as "all good" or "all bad" -- and will recategorize someone, in just ten seconds, from one polar extreme to the other based solely on a minor comment or infraction.

This all-or-nothing thinking occurs because a BPDer's emotional development came to a screeching halt before age five, at which time the child was trying to integrate both the good and bad aspects of her own personality. That is, she was trying to reach the stage when she could think "I am an essentially good girl even though I occasionally do bad things." Sadly, that integration never occurred. This means that, to a BPDer, taking responsibility for her own mistakes means -- to her -- that she must be "all bad."

A BPDer therefore is stuck having to shoehorn everyone (including herself) into a white or black box so she knows how to deal with them. This is why BPDers are intolerant of mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, dualities, and the other grey areas of interpersonal relationships. To avoid dealing with strong conflicting feelings, a BPDer will "split off" that part of her mind having the conflicting feeling. That is, she puts it out of reach of her conscious mind.


> About 6-7 months ago, the high school calls me to pick up our son and take him to the ER for a Suicide Evaluation. He's a mess.


If your W does suffer from strong BPD traits, they likely were passed onto her (through genetics and/or childhood environment) by one of her parents. If so, she may have passed a mental disorder onto your son. As I noted above, PD traits usually do not start showing until the early teens (in contrast, bipolar typically appears in the late teens). 

Importantly, this outcome is only a _possibility_, NOT a probable result. None of my exW's five children, for example, ever developed full-blown BPD. One exhibits moderate traits of BPD, another suffers from mild depression, and a third has occasional panic attacks. But, generally, all five of them are doing quite well as adults.


> It's gotten worse over the years as the kids have become teenagers


If your W actually has strong BPD traits, that deteriorating relationship with her own children is to be expected. The reason is that high functioning BPDers often interact quite well with their young children because, given the kids' immaturity and dependence on the mother, they do not pose a threat to her two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. As the kids get into their early teens, however, they will start triggering both of those fears as they start acting out and refusing to be compliant.

If you were describing a short-term problem, I would suggest you look for warning signs of drug abuse, recent hormone change (e.g., pregnancy), or a head injury -- all of which can cause a temporary loss of emotional control and other temporary BPD traits. You seem to be describing a long-term problem, however, because your W has been behaving this way for many years. For such a long-term problem, the two common causes are bipolar disorder and BPD. Significantly, the behaviors you describe seem much closer to BPD.


> Things started sliding noticeably after 5 years. Wife (and her family it seems) has anger management issues. No big deal until about 6-7 years ago.


This statement is troublesome. If your W actually has a PD as you suspect, it would not have laid hidden for five years and then start appearing 5 years into your 20-year marriage. Instead, the PD would have developed in early childhood, with the traits starting to appear big time at puberty. 

For high functioning BPDers, for example, it is likely that only the close friends and family members would be aware of the traits. HF BPDers typically interact very well with casual friends, classmates, business associates, and complete strangers. None of those folks see her dark side because they have no close relationship with her that can be abandoned -- and there is no intimacy to cause the suffocating feeling of engulfment.

When you initially draw close to a BPDer, you will not trigger either of those fears if she is infatuated with you. The infatuation will hold the two fears at bay because it convinces her that you are the perfect man, the soul mate, who has come to rescue her and make her happy. Yet, when the infatuation starts evaporating after about six months, you would start triggering her two fears. Hence, if your W really does have strong BPD traits, you would have started seeing warning signs of those traits soon after the wedding, if not before.


> We are in MC for the 2nd time. Took 4 yrs to get her to MC #1. She has her own psych now.


Jim, if your W has strong traits of BPD or another PD, MC likely will be a total waste of time and money until she has had several years of intensive therapy to retrain her mind in how to think about interpersonal relationships. It therefore is good that she is seeing a psychologist or psychiatrist. 

If she has strong BPD traits, the good news is that there are good treatment programs for it all over the USA and Europe. The bad news, however, is that it is rare for a BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength needed to stay in those programs long enough to make a real difference. As Anchor says above, these issues are deeply ingrained and take a long time to treat. 

Yet, even when BPDers stay in treatment a long time, they usually just play mind games with the therapists -- as my BPDer exW did with six different psychologists (and 3 MCs) in weekly sessions for 15 years. I spent a small fortune, all to no avail. For the treatment to succeed, the BPDer must want it badly for herself.


> Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.


Jim, therapists generally are loath to tell a BPDer -- much less tell her H -- the name of her disorder. They routinely withhold this information to protect the BPDer, for reasons I discuss in other threads. Instead, they generally will list, for the diagnosis, only the co-occurring "clinical disorders" such as depression, GAD, adult ADHD, PTSD, or bipolar. 

This means that, if you decide that BPD traits are a strong possibility because you are seeing many warning signs, you should not regard HER therapist as your friend. Instead, you should see your own therapist -- one who has never seen or treated your W -- to ensure he is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers. When BPD is a strong possibility, relying on your W's therapist for candid advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her attorney's advice during the divorce.

I therefore suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your children are dealing with. I also suggest that, while you're waiting for an appointment, you look at my description of BPD traits at My list of hell!. If that description rings some bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you and point you to good online resources. Take care, Jim.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

OP, 
And menopause may only make things worst if she has a rough go of it as everything can seem 10x worst than it is at times. The 50's where my most miserable years in my life as far as dealing with menopause. 48-57 yrs... I thought the misery would never end... Just a thought for your wife ,and you too.

~sammy


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## Jim455 (May 3, 2013)

Thank you Anchorwatch, Keenwa, Sammy and Uptown for the replies. A lot of golden nuggets here. I greatly appreciate it.

Uptown, I keep re-reading your reply. *“High Functioning” Borderline Personality Disorder..... *Yup (Wow).... 

A few weeks back our MC brought up BPD. We spent a considerable amount of time on the subject. While I’m a bit of a psych wonk and love to delve into this stuff (much to his amusement/delight), he *really* drilled into the BPD conversation. He addressed it in a 3rd party kind of way, walking right up to the line of directing it to my wife without really crossing that line. I wasn’t quite sure what I was seeing at the moment. But looking back...... The man is brilliant. 

*“therapists generally are loath to tell a BPDer....the name of her disorder”* ----- This really hit home. A year ago I printed out the list of PPD attributes from Wikipedia, highlighted everything on the attribute list (except one) and literally handed it to my wife. She hit every attribute except accusations of infidelity (which I was able to check off over this past summer...grrrr...). She stated that she presented my highlighted PPD paper to her IC who apparently dismissed it. That had me wondering if she is not presenting the whole picture/sugar coating things or if the IC is withholding actual diagnosis.

(I never ask about her IC sessions. I was surprised she mentioned it to me. She never discussed what diagnosis, if any, they are pursuing. I have no interest in interfering with her IC as that is her personal business and I don’t want my presence to influence/skew the IC’s work)

*Some other noteworthy points...*

*“strong BPD traits” (were) likely were passed onto her...by one of her parents. If so, she may have passed a mental disorder onto your son. *---- Yes. There appears to be a family link. I have noticed possible traits in our son but not our daughter. The reasons I am pursuing MC in such depth is not just to try to save the family/marriage but to learn as much as possible about my wife so I can better work with the kids as they go through life. Our son especially since he is possibly exhibiting some traits. Throughout the years, and especially since the ER visit, I’m literally hands-on all over this kid to the point of being accused of spoiling him and giving him whatever he wants. Of course that is not true but that is one of the many topics where her “black and white thinking” really shines through. 

*“...that deteriorating relationship with her own children is to be expected”* ---- wow. So true.

My quote *“Things started sliding noticeably after 5 years.”* Your quote *”This statement is troublesome. If your W actually has a PD as you suspect, it would not have laid hidden for five years”* ---- to clarify, I’ve noticed it from literally the beginning. I actually made a running joke of it early on to diffuse flair ups. Her family has joined in on the running joke thinking it’s hilarious. Only after about 5 years did things really start to concern me. 

*“HF BPDers typically interact very well with casual friends, classmates, business associates, and complete strangers. None of those folks see her dark side because they have no close relationship with her that can be abandoned”* ---- Wow. So true. She cites this as a reason why she “really does not have a problem”. To which I recently concluded/literally told her that’s because she has no depth or vested interest in that relationship.


*“if your W has strong traits of BPD or another PD, MC likely will be a total waste of time and money”* ----- Yes, I was very concerned about this. I think I’ve now learned all there is to know about her for the sake of the kids. I’ve started chirping about winding down MC as we are beginning to revisit things and it is starting to become less and less productive.

The holidays will soon come and go. There are no major family events on the horizon. Come January, it's time to have a serious conversation. Or, if that's not possible, just put an end to it.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Jim, I'm glad to hear you found the BPD information useful. I also offer several other suggestions:

*As an initial matter,* if you suspect your W has strong BPD traits, I recommend that you NOT tell her. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her.

*Second,* if you believe your W has strong BPD traits, I strongly recommend that you read the book, _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist._ Divorcing a BPDer likely will get very nasty really quick. My exW, for example, had me thrown into jail for three days on a bogus charge, allowing her to obtain a R/O barring me from returning to my own home for 18 months (the time it takes to get a divorce in this State).

*Third,* I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. This issue is such an enormous problem that that website is growing by 20 new members every day. The result is that it offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the "Leaving" board and the "Parenting after the Split" board.

*Fourth,* while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My favorite is article #9 at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. I also recommend Kathy Batesel's blog at Borderline Personality Disorder and Relationships.

*Fifth,* if you are interested, I discuss several reasons why therapists routinely withhold the diagnosis from high functioning BPDers (and from their husbands) at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-official-im-getting-divorced.html#post811909.

*Finally*, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping many other members and lurkers. The hit count on your thread, for example, already exceeds 400 views.


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## Jim455 (May 3, 2013)

*if you suspect your W has strong BPD traits, I recommend that you NOT tell her. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. *----- Wow again..... I’ve experienced this the few times I’ve confronted her in the past. And this was over just general layman terms, well prior to IC/MC and the knowledge of specific diagnosis like BPD or PPD. 

As I’m trying to do damage control and resolve matters (as best I can anyway) it was not the response I was hoping for. She took it as a personal attack, spun it around, accused me as the one being nuts and thus making her crazy. I was stunned. Naturally, I’ve eliminated any type of confrontation from my repertoire of interaction with her. 

Interestingly, early on, during her thermonuclear events I attempted to match her intensity and try to one-up her to see if she would reconsider her position and back down. No go. She never backed down. She only escalated further to the point of screeching. Didn’t matter if the kids were around or not. So I pulled the plug on the escalation tact too. (as I now know, backing down is ceding ground for her. Something she simply cannot do)

*My exW... had me thrown into jail for three days on a bogus charge *–---- A buddy of mine had a similar experience. Is there any way to prevent that?? Is that covered in the book?? 

It sounds like yet another reason why I should take my attorney’s advice - don’t mess around, file immediately and just hand her the papers for divorce and eviction.

(My God........ I saw this coming years ago..... while bobbing and weaving, all that time money and energy..... trying to make this work somehow..... not wanting the kids to come from a broken home..... all that they endured...... the quiet intervention that has come from my family towards her, from my sister especially.... not wanting to put the stress of divorce on both our families and especially our aging parents...... and despite it all, here I am..... with my parents aware that their life-work is in my name and at risk...... I finally arrived at the edge of this effing cliff.......................)

Thank you for the resources and your time and effort here. I greatly appreciate it.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> As I now know, backing down is ceding ground for her. Something she simply cannot do.


BPDers are loath to back down because they are convinced they are "The Victim" and, as such, have precious little control over anything in their lives. My experience is that this "out of control" feeling is so powerful that it is impossible for you, as the husband, to do anything that assures her she really does have control over many aspects of your M and household.

My BPDer exW, for example, always felt strongly that I made ALL the important decisions. Hence, if I brought home a surprise gift for her, she would resent my having been _the one to pick it out_. Yet, if I bought her a gift that she herself had already picked out, she would resent my being _the one to decide when the purchase was made._ And, if I tried to remedy that by giving her a generous budget for buying whatever she wants, she would resent my being _the one to decide the monthly budget limit. _

Moreover, when I tried to remedy that problem by agreeing on a mutually acceptable budget figure upfront, she would soon resent me for being _the one who "pressured" her into the agreement._ Indeed, she viewed every mistake she made as being "my fault" because, in some twisted use of logic, she would be convinced I had somehow forced her to that choice.

For example, she had spent $6,000 on several sewing machines and a surger -- and another $5,000 on stacks and stacks of beautiful fabric. In the 15 years, however, she had only managed to make one dress, one shirt, one vest, and a cat collar. When I asked why she had produced so little after buying three different sewing machines, she explained that she had always restricted her choice to machines that were inadequate for the task -- because she feared my reaction if she were to spend a little more on a machine that would actually work. Yes, she said that with a straight face.

Similarly, I paid for a $3,500 piano that she played only five times. It was my fault, she explained, because she never had really wanted a piano -- never mind all the pleading she did prior to the purchase. With BPDers, their feelings are so intense that they are convinced they MUST be true -- reality be damned. This is why BPDers are notorious for "rewriting history" in their own minds.


> *My exW... had me thrown into jail for three days on a bogus charge *–---- A buddy of mine had a similar experience. Is there any way to prevent that??


I agree with your attorney that the most effective remedy -- when a BPDer is unwilling to fix herself in therapy -- is divorce. Otherwise, you are just playing with fire to keep living with an angry, emotionally unstable woman. Because BPDers usually are firmly convinced that their outrageous accusations are absolutely true, they can be very convincing when the police arrive. As soon as there is a knock on the front door, you will see a raging, screaming woman transform instantly into the calmest, most rational individual in the room.

On the way to jail, the cop told me that -- next time this happens -- I should make the 911 call before she has a chance to do so herself. He explained that, whenever the guilty party in domestic violence cannot be readily identified, the normal procedure is to arrest the party WHO DID NOT MAKE THE 911 CALL -- and let the judge figure it out when it goes to arraignment later that day. Yet, if you are arrested early on a Saturday morning as I was, "later that day" means "nearly three days later, on late Monday afternoon."

Significantly, these were not rookie cops but, rather, very experienced city cops working in the "uptown" core (hence my name) of a very large metro area. I therefore suggest that, until you are divorced, you avoid interaction with your W that is not witnessed by other adults. If she starts running for the phone, I suggest you call 911 yourself before she has a chance to do so. Finally, try to avoid any confrontations occurring on Saturday morning, LOL.


> Is that covered in the book??


Yes, the book gives detailed advice on how to document and record your W's behavior so you have firm evidence to use when the police show up and when you are fighting for your possessions in divorce court. It also has tips for dealing with the divorce lawyer because many of them don't know what to expect from BPDers. 

This book was written by one of the co-authors of _Stop Walking on Eggshells_, the best-selling BPD book targeted to abused spouses. Whereas _Eggshells_ is for those trying to _stay_ in the marriage, _Splitting_ is for those who've decided to _leave_. For more information about what the book offers, I suggest you read customer reviews at Amazon.


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