# Unrealistic Expectations or Misperceptions about Marriage



## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

In reading some of the "How to Prevent a WAW" thread, I thought it would be interesting to discuss the different ideas men and women have about marriage. I didn't want to threadjack so I thought we could have a more specific discussion about it here.

While I believe that some enter into marriage with unrealistic expectations (both men and women), I think the bigger issue might be how they perceive marriage and the differences therein.

It was discussed on the other thread on how to prevent your wife from becoming disillusioned and unhappy and ultimately walking away or at least wanting to. I believe that a lot of it stems from the perception that men have relative to how women view marriage.

Speaking as a man who has been in several relationships and now married to the same woman for thirty years, I fell in love with my now wife exactly how she was. I didn't feel the need to tweak her or modify her in any way. I loved her just the way she was. I really believe that's the way most men are.

Conversely, from my own experiences and the experiences of those I know well, it seems that women tend to fall in love with the potential of a man rather than who he is at that time. Now obviously that's not always the case and I am generalizing somewhat, but I do think it's a fairly common occurrence. 

Speaking of my own marriage, my wife first worked on me about my temper problems when we were first married. Over the years, it's been that I need to be more kind, or more nice, or more thoughtful and considerate of others. It's like she's in a perpetual mode of refining me to be her ideal mate and father of her children.

It's not that some of those qualities aren't worthwhile or haven't made me a better person, it's just that I don't think that way about her. I don't think most men get into a relationship with the idea of "fixing" somebody. It's as if woman view us men as a house with good bones that they can design and decorate into the house of their dreams. I think men, for the most part, view their wife as the "move in ready" house from the start.

Now I say all of that to say this. I believe after some time has gone by in the relationship, say 5, 10 or even 15 years, that the wife becomes disillusioned because perhaps she can only modify her husband so much. You see, he doesn't realize that he's being tinkered with. He doesn't view his wife as some "fixer-upper" project so he's oblivious to what she wants and is trying to do.

He, on the other hand, may begin to feel as though she doesn't love him for who he is, and perhaps there is some merit to that. You see, I think men fall in love with their wives for who they are and I think women fall in love with their husbands for what they can be.

When those notions are dashed, you have an atmosphere of disillusionment and discord that may cause one to simply walk away.

What is the cause of this relatively new idea. I say that because up until the 60's and 70's, I don't think women were very prone to just leave their husband if their emotional needs weren't being met. I tend to blame this on the equal rights movement and the rise of feminism during that time period. I think it bread entitlement and that has led to so many going into marriage with the wrong ideas. You know the mindset - you can have this or you SHOULD have this or you deserve this. Don't get me wrong, a lot of good came out of that movement as well. Women needed to know that they were empowered but I think all the entitlement nonsense has gone overboard.

Given that divorce proceedings are generated 80% of the time by women, I do wonder if their perceptions of what marriage should be are completely different than what men think it is. I would lean toward yes. I believe that women are looking at marriage in a different way than men and I'm not completely certain that it's a good thing.

While I think we should all strive to be better people, I don't think people should ever get married with the idea that they can change someone. From my experience, that seems to be losing proposition and maybe if it changed, there would be less people disenchanted with their marriage.

I'm curious if others have noticed this or perhaps even feel the same way.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mostlycontent said:


> In reading some of the "How to Prevent a WAW" thread, I thought it would be interesting to discuss the different ideas men and women have about marriage. I didn't want to threadjack so I thought we could have a more specific discussion about it here.
> 
> While I believe that some enter into marriage with unrealistic expectations (both men and women), I think the bigger issue might be how they perceive marriage and the differences therein.
> 
> ...


I think that you are making gross generalizations and it just does not hold up. That might be the dynamic in your marriage but I don’t think that it is in most marriages. You wife have tweaked you for years but not all, probably not most, women do this.
This is something that some people do. Some men try very hard to change a woman after they marry.



Mostlycontent said:


> What is the cause of this relatively new idea. I say that because up until the 60's and 70's, I don't think women were very prone to just leave their husband if their emotional needs weren't being met. I tend to blame this on the equal rights movement and the rise of feminism during that time period. I think it bread entitlement and that has led to so many going into marriage with the wrong ideas. You know the mindset - you can have this or you SHOULD have this or you deserve this. Don't get me wrong, a lot of good came out of that movement as well. Women needed to know that they were empowered but I think all the entitlement nonsense has gone overboard.


Women did not divorce much in the past because they had no real way to support themselves and their children. Now women have more options. They can leave bad marriages.


Mostlycontent said:


> Given that divorce proceedings are generated 80% of the time by women, I do wonder if their perceptions of what marriage should be are completely different than what men think it is. I would lean toward yes. I believe that women are looking at marriage in a different way than men and I'm not completely certain that it's a good thing.


I think that men leave marriages just as often as women do. The only difference is that women tend to have lessor incomes, and when a man leaves he usually leaves her with the children. So women file more often because they have a need to get some support to help them take care of the children and often to transition into a new life.


Mostlycontent said:


> While I think we should all strive to be better people, I don't think people should ever get married with the idea that they can change someone. From my experience, that seems to be losing proposition and maybe if it changed, there would be less people disenchanted with their marriage.
> 
> I'm curious if others have noticed this or perhaps even feel the same way.


When I married I had no thoughts at all of changing anyone. Now it did turn out that the men I married changed after marriage. They were appeared to be responsible men with good educations, good solid careers and incomes. Once we married they left their jobs, did what they wanted and expected me to no longer be their lover who they enjoyed life with but someone to support them, to take care of their house, their children and on and on.

Maybe, since people seem to want to blame women for all the divorces, we should ask women why they filed for divorce. And was it they who caused the end of the marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

"So, why do women to leave their husbands? The most common reason women initiate divorce is infidelity with over 37 percent of women citing that is the cause of their marital breakdown. Coming in at second and third is emotionally unavailable husbands and immaturity, respectively. Women, overall, cited more reasons for divorce than men and were more likely to divorce because of emotional or physical abuse, incompatibility and immaturity."

Study Shows Women More Likely to File for Divorce | Divorce Lawyers - USAttorneys.com


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## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

Mostlycontent, I think you are spot on. Even the infidility that Elegirl spoke about - most women I know get married to men they KNOW are flirtatious. They know in advance when they are getting into but because they have this 'Saviour Complex' they imagine they'll change it.

This is not entirely bad. I think women wanting to change and better things is part of their nature (Eve was Adam's helper, as in she was there to help him be more than he would/could be alone) but it goes really overboard at times.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

FrenchFry said:


> I think an unrealistic expectation of men is that the woman you marry will stay the same throughout the duration of your marriage. I think that that may be a little short-sighted, especially if you marry fairly young and with the intention of having children which has a tendency to effect how a woman (person, ideally) approaches life.
> 
> I got married straight out of college at 22. At 29 plus one kid, I feel like I have retained some of the key elements of my personality but how I relate to the world and my husband is vastly different--in a better way.
> 
> I don't think my husband married me move-in ready. I think he'd be an idiot if he did. I didn't marry him to change him, but I did marry him expecting that he wouldn't stagnate as a person, which he has. Like it or not, the person we marry has a significant influence on how we grow and change. If you married a woman who didn't expect anything, you wouldn't give anything--and vice versa.


This was the case for me as well. My husband and I married each other for who we were at the time. But we were young, I was 19 and he was 22. At 29 and 32, I had grown up quite a bit, and he hadn't changed much at all. Behaviors that seem normal and endearing in a 22-year-old guy can be very unattractive in a 32-year-old guy. So what was once a good match became a very bad one.

Our expectations were definitely off. He expected me to never change, and I expected him to grow up. In the end, we were both disappointed.


"Expectation is the root of all heartache." - William Shakespeare


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Depends on one's definition of "grow up" of course...


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

Suspect that your thread title is gender neutral then when we come in you bash on women for the entire post. 

I disagree with you. 

My wife, mother, MIL, sister, grandmothers and aunts did not marry incomplete husbands that needed remodeling. 

I offer all of these amazing women and their husbands more respect than you do

There isn't one nag in the whole bunch and their men get the job done one way or another eventually rather than the men of a WAW that are deaf, dense and dumb

Leaving a man that is triple D is what I hope for my daughter if she makes a poor choice of whom to marry


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

There's an old adage:

Women marry expecting their husbands to change, while men marry expecting their wives to never change.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SunnyT said:


> There's an old adage:
> 
> Women marry expecting their husbands to change, while men marry expecting their wives to never change.


That is a quote made by Freud.

Now he is the man who believed that all women had penis envy.

He also believed that clitoral orgasm was adolescent, and that upon puberty, when women began having intercourse with men, women should transfer the center of orgasm to the vagina. The vagina, it was assumed, was able to produce a parallel, but more mature, orgasm than the clitoris.

So yea, we are not going to pay a lot of attention to insulting, gross generalizations made by a man who was clueless when it came to women.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Mostlycontent said:


> .........................
> Speaking of my own marriage, my wife first worked on me about my temper problems when we were first married. Over the years, it's been that I need to be more kind, or more nice, or more thoughtful and considerate of others. It's like she's in a perpetual mode of refining me to be her ideal mate and father of her children.
> 
> It's not that some of those qualities aren't worthwhile or haven't made me a better person, it's just that I don't think that way about her. I don't think most men get into a relationship with the idea of "fixing" somebody. It's as if woman view us men as a house with good bones that they can design and decorate into the house of their dreams. I think men, for the most part, view their wife as the "move in ready" house from the start.
> ................................


It always amazes me when people do not understand the damage that temper problems cause in a relationship.

If your partner is trying to tweak out the bad traits (anger, temper) then what she is really doing is trying to save the relationship, she cannot live with (nor should have too) and angry, bad tempered man. What she is telling you is that you are unbearable to live with and if you want her to stay then you had better start behaving like a mature, emotionally healthy man.

I expect my partner to behave with respect and to be adult enough to control his anger. How that could be mistaken for an entitlement mentality is very telling of a controlling man.

Lets flip it, your wife is bad tempered and angry, would you be happy to live with that or would you enforce your boundaries of being treated respectfully?


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

There is an old adage "masterbation causes blindness"

If you can SEE my point then so much for old adages


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

thread the needle said:


> There is an old adage "masterbation causes blindness"
> 
> If you can SEE my point then so much for old adages


Dug said in France they say it causes deafness.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Mostlycontent said:


> Speaking as a man who has been in several relationships and now married to the same woman for thirty years, I fell in love with my now wife exactly how she was. I didn't feel the need to tweak her or modify her in any way. I loved her just the way she was. I really believe that's the way most men are.


Yes most men are this way
_“Men marry women with the hope they will never change. Women marry men with the hope they will change. Invariably they are both disappointed.” : Albert Einstein_


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> That is a quote made by Freud





Thundarr said:


> _“Men marry women with the hope they will never change. Women marry men with the hope they will change. Invariably they are both disappointed.” : Albert Einstein_


Hmm


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Thundarr said:


> _“Men marry women with the hope they will never change. Women marry men with the hope they will change. Invariably they are both disappointed.” : Albert Einstein_


Should we take this to mean that women change a lot through their lives, and men don't change much? What do you think would cause that?


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

OpenWindows said:


> Should we take this to mean that women change a lot through their lives, and men don't change much? What do you think would cause that?


We should take it to mean Einstein should stick to science


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

An anonymous internet meme said it was Einstein lol. Memes are gospel aren't they?

It doesn't really matter though because it's repeatedly corroborated.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

OpenWindows said:


> Should we take this to mean that women change a lot through their lives, and men don't change much? What do you think would cause that?


It's ironic isn't it. When looking at cars, truck, homes, etc, men see potential more often. When looking at the opposite sex women see potential more often.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

thread the needle said:


> Hmm


Ok, I got mixed up on who made that silly quote.


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## ExiledBayStater (Feb 16, 2013)

OpenWindows said:


> Should we take this to mean that women change a lot through their lives, and men don't change much? What do you think would cause that?



Because men enjoy waking up next to a pretty woman and taking her on a ride on a motorcycle or in a convertible, sex 4X a week, etc.

Women have a nesting instinct and look forward to the changes that married life keeps bringing.

These are generalizations of course. So is Einstein's statement that prompted this whole discussion.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ExiledBayStater said:


> Because men enjoy waking up next to a pretty woman and taking her on a ride on a motorcycle or in a convertible, sex 4X a week, etc.
> 
> Women have a nesting instinct and look forward to the changes that married life keeps bringing.
> 
> These are generalizations of course. So is Einstein's statement that prompted this whole discussion.


So, do we assume that the only thing men care about is a waking up next to a pretty woman?

Surely men also care about their relationship with that women, with their home, their children, and a whole lot more. 

Marriage is a lot more than a pretty woman.. I would think that it was for men as well.

.


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## ExiledBayStater (Feb 16, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> So, do we assume that the only thing men care about is a waking up next to a pretty woman?
> 
> Surely men also care about their relationship with that women, with their home, their children, and a whole lot more.
> 
> ...


I knew you'd be all over that and I hesitated to post - but there was a question begging for an answer. If you post your own response to @OpenWindows question I'm sure you could answer it better.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ExiledBayStater said:


> I knew you'd be all over that and I hesitated to post - but there was a question begging for an answer. If you post your own response to @OpenWindows question I'm sure you could answer it better.


Why be hesitant to post. What’s the fun in that 

The point of my question is that of course men expect women they marry to change. 

Sure men would like for the woman they marry to always be beautiful.

But that’s not all that marriage is about.

Men expect their wife to grow into a good wife. They expect her to pay attention to his needs and wants and to change to meet those needs.

They expect her to grow into the mother of their children, the caretaker of their home, their care taker when the husband is ill, and a gazillion other things. 

If he takes up a new hobby or interest, most men would like their wife to grow in a way to appreciate the new interest/hobby and maybe even join in on it.

In today’s world, a lot of men expect their women to work, grow in their career and bring is a good portion of the family income.

If it turns out that she has some bad traits, most men would be very verbal about it an insist that the woman change:

•	she has a horrible temper
•	She blows money like crazy
•	She’s a slob
•	She cannot keep house
•	She yells at the kids
•	The list is endless of the things that men would speak up about and want to change in a woman that the married if she had those traits.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Men want their wife to change. His area of desired improvement is usually sensuality. How about the adage to the effect of - marry a nun and turn her into the [email protected] he didn't marry because she was too sensual.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Holland said:


> It always amazes me when people do not understand the damage that temper problems cause in a relationship.
> 
> If your partner is trying to tweak out the bad traits (anger, temper) then what she is really doing is trying to save the relationship, she cannot live with (nor should have too) and angry, bad tempered man. What she is telling you is that you are unbearable to live with and if you want her to stay then you had better start behaving like a mature, emotionally healthy man.
> 
> ...



Well, I wouldn't have married her as I don't find a woman with a temper attractive at all. I used anger as an example but you used it to veer off on a tangent. The point is that I didn't have a list of things about her that I needed to fix.

Again, I think woman look at men from a potential standpoint much more so than men view women in that way.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> No I don't think that men don't have projects he wants to undertake on the woman he marries. His area of improvement is usually sensuality. How about the adage to the effect of - marry a nun and turn her into the sensual women he didn't marry because they were too sensual.



Perhaps this was true 40 or 50 years ago before premarital sex became so accepted. Now, a man would have to be an idiot to marry a prude hoping that she'd turn into a vixen after they were married.


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## ExiledBayStater (Feb 16, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Why be hesitant to post. What’s the fun in that
> 
> The point of my question is that of course men expect women they marry to change.
> 
> ...


I personally expect nothing from my wife. She will do as she pleases. Trying go change things just leads to aggravation for both of us. If I accept things as they are we're okay.

Going back to the Einstein quote, I assume it's about the stereotypes of perpetually adolescent males and women eager to nest. I don't give it much credence, human behavior varies a lot between individuals.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mostlycontent said:


> Well, I wouldn't have married her as I don't find a woman with a temper attractive at all. I used anger as an example but you used it to veer off on a tangent. The point is that I didn't have a list of things about her that I needed to fix.
> 
> Again, I think woman look at men from a potential standpoint much more so than men view women in that way.


Most women who marry men with bad tempers would not have married them had they known about the temper.

A lot of people wait until after marriage to show their true selves.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Most women who marry men with bad tempers would not have married them had they known about the temper.
> 
> A lot of people wait until after marriage to show their true selves.


I think it's more accurate to say that the signs were there, they were just selectively ignored.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> I think it's more accurate to say that the signs were there, they were just selectively ignored.


Do you feel like you did that in your first marriage?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> So, do we assume that the only thing men care about is a waking up next to a pretty woman?
> 
> Surely men also care about their relationship with that women, with their home, their children, and a whole lot more.
> 
> ...


Brings to mind the quote "show me the most beautiful woman in the world and I'll show you a guy who's tired of putting up with her".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Brings to mind the quote "show me the most beautiful woman in the world and I'll show you a guy who's tired of putting up with her".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I bet that would be true if the sexes were reversed, too.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> Do you feel like you did that in your first marriage?


Yes.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

I think FrenchFry hits the nail on the head - how can you expect not to change over the span of ten years. It's crazy. Everyone changes a hell of a lot from 15 to 20. Why wouldn't you expect to change from 20 to 25?

Do men think that 20 years of age constitutes full maturity? Makes no sense. I think that women are more mature earlier in life and their likely equal age partners are generally behind, maturity wise. This means that women are looking to the future a bit more. 

The counterpoint to the idea that men like women as they are, is that men have learned that women are much more sensitive about being criticized, so they don't even attempt to make changes. If my wife says my pants aren't flattering my response will be "whatever". If I say the same thing to her, it causes a crisis. You learn to not sweat the small stuff. It isn't worth a big blow-up.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

OpenWindows said:


> Thundarr said:
> 
> 
> > Yes most men are this way
> ...


I think these two things are related to one another, rather than being mutually exclusive.

I think that women are led to believe that love/marriage can change a man--it's an ever-present romantic trope in our culture. You see it in moves and TV all the time. Even George Clooney, the forever playboy, was "changed" and convinced the settle down by the right woman. So women think that their love is strong enough to get a man to settle down, to grow up, to change his wandering ways, to temper his temper. Whatever his fatal flaw is--or even just minor flaws, like he's a bad dresser or he chews with his mouth open--a good woman will save him from it. Once they're married, he will start acting like the flawless prince that she knows he is, somewhere deep inside. They fall in love with potential.

Instead, what can happen is: after marriage, instead of becoming the flawless prince, he moves in the opposite direction. He stops courting her, he stops trying to impress her, he stops making an effort, because why should he? All that stuff was to get her to fall in love and marry him, and now that he's accomplished that, his job is done, right? 

For the men's side, hoping that the woman will never change... there is something to be said about our culture's obsession with youth and beauty, particularly where women are concerned, and perhaps this has something to do with it. But I don't think that all men expect their wives to stay young and beautiful forever. This has more to do with men failing to meet the woman's expectations for growth and change; in response, she will change herself, but not intentionally. She might become less affectionate and lose interest in sex, she might get b!tchy, she might get depressed and gain weight or stop caring for her physical appearance. Not to mention there are the changes of life; with kids, more demands at work, more responsibilities with church or other social organizations, the relationship/husband can become less of a priority. She feels his interest in her is beginning to wane, because of these unmet expectations, so she feels less inclined to be available to him.

Neither is right--but neither is wrong, either. They feed into one another.

If a couple is to avoid this dysfunctional cycle, both need to continue to strive to be better partners, but at the same time need to strive to stay the same man/woman their spouse fell in love with. We all grow and change over time, and in a healthy relationship, hopefully we grow and change together and become better versions of ourselves.

(And also, be critical of our own expectations, to determine what we really need, what is unrealistic, and what we've been culturally conditioned to expect. Men are expected to be supermen, and women are expected to be the perfect mother, housewife, and executive all at the same time. Seriously, something has got to give, these societal expectations are just absurd.)




samyeagar said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> > Most women who marry men with bad tempers would not have married them had they known about the temper.
> ...


I think it's a little bit of both, or perhaps dependent/unique to each situation.
@samyeagar, you said in a later post (in response to @jld) that you selectively ignored the signs in your first marriage.

For me, yes, there were some signs in my first marriage, but I didn't selectively ignore them, I didn't recognize them for what they were. I can at least beg ignorance on that part. 

But the signs were no comparison to his true self--my XH had completely fabricated his persona based on what he knew I wanted in a partner, and that persona was completely antithetical to his true self. The man I was married to (and divorced) was completely different from the man that I fell in love with--they even LOOK completely different. (Seriously, I compared a picture of when we were dating to a pic of him now. Completely different.) 

My XH also has a lot of unresolved emotional issues, and if I knew then what I know now... I would have run far away, and fast. The signs may not have indicated who he really was, but they certainly indicated that the man he presented was false. And if someone has to fake their personality, well then, the real one must be pretty awful.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

VermisciousKnid said:


> I think FrenchFry hits the nail on the head - how can you expect not to change over the span of ten years. It's crazy. Everyone changes a hell of a lot from 15 to 20. Why wouldn't you expect to change from 20 to 25?
> 
> Do men think that 20 years of age constitutes full maturity? Makes no sense. I think that women are more mature earlier in life and their likely equal age partners are generally behind, maturity wise. This means that women are looking to the future a bit more.
> 
> The counterpoint to the idea that men like women as they are, is that men have learned that women are much more sensitive about being criticized, so they don't even attempt to make changes. *If my wife says my pants aren't flattering my response will be "whatever".* If I say the same thing to her, it causes a crisis. You learn to not sweat the small stuff. It isn't worth a big blow-up.


Agreed with all the above.

But if your wife says your pants aren't flattering, you should listen to her. She wants you to look good, and you should make the effort to look good for her. Maybe you don't care, but she's the one who has to look at you. And the more attractive she finds you, not to mention that you're taking her wants into consideration, the more likely she is to jump your bones with more frequency. Ladies are crazy for a sharp-dressed man.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

ExiledBayStater said:


> Because men enjoy waking up next to a pretty woman and taking her on a ride on a motorcycle or in a convertible, sex 4X a week, etc.


To me, this would be an unrealistic expectation. All of that is easy to maintain when I'm young, fit, and carefree, living in a little apartment with almost no real responsibility. Not so much with a full-time job, two kids, and big house to take care of.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Mostlycontent said:


> Well, I wouldn't have married her as I don't find a woman with a temper attractive at all. I used anger as an example but you used it to veer off on a tangent. The point is that I didn't have a list of things about her that I needed to fix.
> 
> Again, I think woman look at men from a potential standpoint much more so than men view women in that way.


How long did you date or live together for before marriage?

OK you gave a list in your OP of the traits your wife has tried to "tweak" over the years and TBH they are all poor qualities to have, temper, unkindness etc. 

Did you show your wife the full extent of these poor traits prior to marriage? Really show them to her?

Again IMHO it is less about trying to change a man and more about wishing he was the man that he portrayed he was pre marriage. By expecting you to step up to be a better quality person, she is trying to save the marriage. How can a wife respect and love a man that is not a decent caring person?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Holland said:


> How long did you date or live together for before marriage?
> 
> OK you gave a list in your OP of the traits your wife has tried to "tweak" over the years and TBH they are all poor qualities to have, temper, unkindness etc.
> 
> ...


It's also about making a relationship work. Even the most perfectly wonderful people still need to learn and develop good relationship dynamics.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

It's true, women do expect men to change after marriage, from a single man to a man with a wife and then a man with children. My husband changed within 6 month of our marriage. It had nothing to do with anything I encouraged. 

He resumed his passionate interest in sports, rusty old nasty cars and stupid beat up motorbikes. I knew his interests but not the amount of time he devoted to them. I did ask him to change. I didn't see getting married so that we spent 4 evenings out of 7 apart. I did not want him to stop doing what he was passionate about just make more time for me.

I don't think I was unreasonable. At the time he thought I was. He was not going to be controlled by me or dictated to. This is what he always did and he was not going to give it up. No way I could win so I decided to do it his way. I became more independent and got involved in things that interested me. I met new people joined a group and spent a lot less time waiting for him to come home. 

He got concerned then annoyed then angry. I told him that I agreed that we shouldn't control each other but we each needed to decide what kind of marriage we wanted. What ever we decided, it needed to be bilateral. We both decided to spend more time together. I got interested in bikes and he tolerated my musical interest. So we both changed because we needed to.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> I think that women are led to believe that love/marriage can change a man--it's an ever-present romantic trope in our culture. You see it in moves and TV all the time. Even George Clooney, the forever playboy, was "changed" and convinced the settle down by the right woman. So women think that their love is strong enough to get a man to settle down, to grow up, to change his wandering ways, to temper his temper. Whatever his fatal flaw is--or even just minor flaws, like he's a bad dresser or he chews with his mouth open--a good woman will save him from it. Once they're married, he will start acting like the flawless prince that she knows he is, somewhere deep inside. They fall in love with potential.
> 
> Instead, what can happen is: after marriage, instead of becoming the flawless prince, he moves in the opposite direction. He stops courting her, he stops trying to impress her, he stops making an effort, because why should he? All that stuff was to get her to fall in love and marry him, and now that he's accomplished that, his job is done, right?
> 
> ...


Thank you FIP for understanding the kind of thread I meant this to be. Far too many are hyper sensitive and completely miss the point. I think you gave a fairly good synopsis that can generate further discussion.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Holland said:


> How long did you date or live together for before marriage?
> 
> OK you gave a list in your OP of the traits your wife has tried to "tweak" over the years and TBH they are all poor qualities to have, temper, unkindness etc.
> 
> ...



This thread was not intended to be about me but rather a general discussion of the perceptions men and women have going into marriage and how they differ. I gave a few examples in my own marriage to get the ball rolling not be critiqued by those who likely also are riddled with less than admirable traits as well. There's no point in that.

There are dozens and dozens of character traits and all of us have good ones and bad ones. That is not the point of this thread.

As for saving my marriage, that is not an issue. I've been married for 30 years to my wife. We are generally very happy. We have the one thing necessary for a marriage to be sustained and it's called commitment. It is our very foundation.

Anyway, since you asked the question, I'll answer it. My wife and I married exactly 6 months to the day after we met. It wasn't love at first sight but it was pretty damned close. We obviously were very attracted to each other physically and shared very similar core values. Add commitment to staying together to that and we've been able to pretty much work through everything.

I used anger as an example but it was probably better defined as aggression. I was an athlete in college who played a violent sport and was young, strong and invincible. I believe, well I know, that my wife found that attractive about me. She liked the "take charge" kind of man and I had that in spades. 

As for hiding any traits, I don't believe I did any of that consciously. I believe we all try and show our best selves during the dating process but I really wasn't one who intentionally tried to do that. I always had my pick, if you will, so I don't recall ever worrying about such things. On the other hand, I wasn't stupid. I don't know anyone who would purposely show their worst traits to someone they were interested in. That's a silly assertion. 

Do I think people overlook potential red flags in relationships with others they are really interested in? Hell yes. How else do you explain the number of folks on here with multiple failed marriages. It isn't all that their spouse changed for the worst. In fact, it's more likely that they just didn't see the obvious red flags, probably in large part because they didn't want to see them. Perhaps they did notice some of them and believed they could change them.

That's the point of this thread really. How did they perceive marriage? I believe men and women do perceive marriage differently and I also think that after years have gone by that often times one or both realize that their marriage isn't anything like they thought it would be.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

jld said:


> Dug said in France they say it causes deafness.


*
Huh? What did you say?*

Posted via Mobile Device[/i][/size]


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> It's true, women do expect men to change after marriage, from a single man to a man with a wife and then a man with children. My husband changed within 6 month of our marriage. It had nothing to do with anything I encouraged.
> 
> He resumed his passionate interest in sports, rusty old nasty cars and stupid beat up motorbikes. I knew his interests but not the amount of time he devoted to them. I did ask him to change. I didn't see getting married so that we spent 4 evenings out of 7 apart. I did not want him to stop doing what he was passionate about just make more time for me.
> 
> ...


That's an excellent example, Catherine. My wife and I also had more dissimilar interests when we first got married. I loved sports and hanging out with the guys. She was unhappy about it and then we began to cultivate interests that we both liked. It took some time but it's also a fairly normal process, I would assume, when two people get married young.

Now we do pretty much everything together. All three of our kids were/are very good athletes and played sports. She became very interested and learned a lot so she could follow our kids. Now she absolutely loves football and basketball the way I do. It worked out beautifully. We also go antiquing together, which was definitely one of her passions when we first married, and also spend hours a week walking the dogs on the beach together.

So people can work through those things and you and your spouse are a good example.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

So really the question (at least in terms of expectations that the man will change), what type of change are we talking about? For example, when you get married, have kids, etc... the man (and woman) are expected to change as they take on new responsibilities in their lives. That is only natural and seems fair to expect (but still leaves open the question of exactly what constitutes change as each person may have a different opinion of what that means). 

On the other hand, if you marry a guy who has a wandering eye, treats you like crap, etc... expecting that the wedding cake will provide some magic cure all, well, more likely than not you will be SOL (or reverse could be true if you are a guy trying to go the Pretty Woman route).


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Brings to mind the quote "show me the most beautiful woman in the world and I'll show you a guy who's tired of putting up with her".


I'm pretty sure that has been cleaned up from the original. >


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

technovelist said:


> I'm pretty sure that has been cleaned up from the original. >


Lol, thought the saying seemed to be a bit watered down :grin2:


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

jld said:


> Dug said in France they say it causes deafness.


I believe you and Dug have solved the reason for WAWs. Too many husbands walking around with rosy palms and no hearing.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> I believe you and Dug have solved the reason for WAWs. Too many husbands walking around with rosy palms and no hearing.



_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> I believe you and Dug have solved the reason for WAWs. Too many husbands walking around with rosy palms and no hearing.


OMG, if I had only known...

I could have just turned off the internet and bought him some hearing aids!!

:rofl:


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Part of the problem, as I see it, is how do you define unrealistic? What may be a realistic expectation from one person would be completely unrealistic from another.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> It's true, women do expect men to change after marriage, from a single man to a man with a wife and then a man with children. My husband changed within 6 month of our marriage. It had nothing to do with anything I encouraged.
> 
> He resumed his passionate interest in sports, rusty old nasty cars and stupid beat up motorbikes. I knew his interests but not the amount of time he devoted to them. I did ask him to change. I didn't see getting married so that we spent 4 evenings out of 7 apart. I did not want him to stop doing what he was passionate about just make more time for me.
> 
> ...


Sounds like he wasn't totally ready for marriage. He figured that once he put the ring on your finger that he didn't have to do anything else to maintain the relationship, and that you would be happy to cook, clean, have the sex, and wait around for him while he did his own thing.

No way was a woman going to tell him what he could and couldn't do. Men don't like it when women say, you need to do a better job of prioritizing our relationship, because they see that as her taking away something from him; they seem to see it as an all-or-nothing deal. For some reason, making the relationship a priority signals a cease-and-desist order of anything the man might have once enjoyed, a personality castration of sorts. What he didn't realize (until after you gave him a dose of his own medicine), and what a lot of men don't realize, is this: if you want a happy and healthy relationship/marriage, then you need to make the choice to prioritize the relationship and your partner. Because, which is more important, your hobbies or your life partner? If you say your hobbies, you shouldn't be in a relationship in the first place. It doesn't mean that you have to give up your hobbies/interests entirely, it just means that he needs to be judicious with his time. This should not be met with the statement, "My relationship is taking time away from my hobby;" it should be met with the question, "Is this hobby taking time away from my relationship? Is it causing me to neglect my partner?" What your husband didn't see (and what many men like him don't see) is that if he doesn't make that choice, if he doesn't have the cognizance to ask that question, his wife sees that as a rejection of her and of the marriage. The man who fails to do so will surely lose his marriage, and if he does not lose it, it will surely be an unhappy union. 

I'm glad the two of you worked it out.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Mostlycontent said:


> Thank you FIP for understanding the kind of thread I meant this to be. Far too many are hyper sensitive and completely miss the point. I think you gave a fairly good synopsis that can generate further discussion.


Thanks, I try


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Mostlycontent said:


> This thread was not intended to be about me but rather a general discussion of the perceptions men and women have going into marriage and how they differ. I gave a few examples in my own marriage to get the ball rolling not be critiqued by those who likely also are riddled with less than admirable traits as well. There's no point in that.
> 
> There are dozens and dozens of character traits and all of us have good ones and bad ones. That is not the point of this thread.
> 
> ...


I think people who have multiple failed marriages have often not done enough self reflection to understand their role, whether it's that they were a poor partner, had a broken picker, or some combination. 

If your first wife cheats I get that you may have been blindsided, but if you have wife number 2, 3, and 4 all cheating you need to take a look at yourself. 

I can give you a list of the ways my ex mistreated me but I've also tried very hard to consider my faults. I think in most ways I'm a good partner. .... I'm in really good shape, good job, take care of myself, am not very demanding, cook well and clean ok. And I like sex a few times a week.

But other parts of me can be difficult. .... I'm a little damaged emotionally thanks to csa, I have a big mouth and am highly opinionated, can be moody (never anger, just sullen), and I'm a dominant alpha type. The fact is that I'm hard for many men to handle despite all the good things I offer and my ex wasn't able to deal with a woman like me. He found me attractive but didn't like dealing with me and I'm ok with that. I just don't understand why he fought the divorce. ....it was obvious things weren't going to work. 

I took 6 years of dating to marry my hb partly because I wanted him to know what he was getting. We're going on 11 years together and 5 married and are still happy partly because he's comfortable with who I am. 

Or he's just dealt with enough crap to know that in aggregate I'm a pretty good deal.

I sometimes feel like there isn't enough self reflection here. It is tough to do but so important. Whenever I see a thread where someone writes a page of their spouse's faults and none of their own I become suspicious. 

Unless there's abuse. Nothing trumps that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

One unrealistic expectation I think many have with marriage is children (assuming that most people get married with the idea of starting a family). It doesn't quite tie in with the OPs first post, but does tie in when it comes to expecting your spouse to make some changes. As most people here can attest to, raising a family is hard f'n work, and really until you are knee deep in it you can't quite understand how much it takes. Take a couple where the marriage isn't particularly strong or there are unrealistic expectations from the start, throw in some kids, and you are left with a ticking time bomb (not a pencil case  ).


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> One unrealistic expectation I think many have with marriage is children (assuming that most people get married with the idea of starting a family). It doesn't quite tie in with the OPs first post, but does tie in when it comes to expecting your spouse to make some changes. As most people here can attest to, raising a family is hard f'n work, and really until you are knee deep in it you can't quite understand how much it takes. Take a couple where the marriage isn't particularly strong or there are unrealistic expectations from the start, throw in some kids, and you are left with a ticking time bomb (not a pencil case  ).


This was the case in my marriage. He expected his life to mostly stay the same after kids. I expected him to share the workload. This was never openly discussed between us before the kids... I think we each thought our own perspective went without saying.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Yes, I had unrealistic expectations. Before marriage I had 1 serious 15 year hobby and played golf. She participated in both regularly. Wedding day marked the end of that. Did I give either up? HELL no


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

FeministInPink said:


> Sounds like he wasn't totally ready for marriage. He figured that once he put the ring on your finger that he didn't have to do anything else to maintain the relationship, and that you would be happy to cook, clean, have the sex, and wait around for him while he did his own thing.
> 
> No way was a woman going to tell him what he could and couldn't do. Men don't like it when women say, you need to do a better job of prioritizing our relationship, because they see that as her taking away something from him; they seem to see it as an all-or-nothing deal. For some reason, making the relationship a priority signals a cease-and-desist order of anything the man might have once enjoyed, a personality castration of sorts. What he didn't realize (until after you gave him a dose of his own medicine), and what a lot of men don't realize, is this: if you want a happy and healthy relationship/marriage, then you need to make the choice to prioritize the relationship and your partner. Because, which is more important, your hobbies or your life partner? If you say your hobbies, you shouldn't be in a relationship in the first place. It doesn't mean that you have to give up your hobbies/interests entirely, it just means that he needs to be judicious with his time. This should not be met with the statement, "My relationship is taking time away from my hobby;" it should be met with the question, "Is this hobby taking time away from my relationship? Is it causing me to neglect my partner?" What your husband didn't see (and what many men like him don't see) is that if he doesn't make that choice, if he doesn't have the cognizance to ask that question, his wife sees that as a rejection of her and of the marriage. The man who fails to do so will surely lose his marriage, and if he does not lose it, it will surely be an unhappy union.
> 
> I'm glad the two of you worked it out.


We were 20, I don't think anyone is ready for marriage at that age. I gave the short version of the adjustment we made as if it took a day and was strait forward. It took years with lots of back sliding at first. When we had our first baby, he decided to join a neighborhood baseball team. I like baseball and went to the games and socialized with other couples. This was his idea of us doing things together. 

Ummm no, not every w/e, the same people, same activity with a new baby and him out on the field and me watching. We had different ideas about what constituted doing things together. When I told him how I felt, he became irritable and short with me. 

He said I was never happy no matter what he did. That was a hard period. My activities centered around caring for a small baby and I felt trapped and unhappy and I withdrew. He noticed that he did not have the attentive involved wife he had before baseball. Women are between a rock and a hard place with regard to these hard line attitudes. If you ask for change you are a stereotypical wife trying to change her husband and you meet resistance. 

But when you become unhappy and withdraw you are the stereotypical manipulative b!tch. When you adapt the "I am not being controlled by you either" attitude, you are a withholding hag. You can't discuss it to avoid being labeled a nag. 

I try to purge stereotypes from my interactions with my husband and men in general. I treat him like an individual and I ask him to treat me the same way. Makes it easier to work out compromises. I don't need to dance around worthless gender assumptions that ferment conflict between men and women.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Cultural expectations and stereotypes make it so we can't win, no matter what we do. Or it seems like that, eh? Much depends on how much Kool-Aid the other has had to drink. And sometimes you never know until you're deep in the muck and sh!t.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> I think people who have multiple failed marriages have often not done enough self reflection to understand their role, whether it's that they were a poor partner, had a broken picker, or some combination.
> 
> If your first wife cheats I get that you may have been blindsided, but if you have wife number 2, 3, and 4 all cheating you need to take a look at yourself.
> 
> ...



This is a great post. I was married at age 23 but if anything had happened in my marriage and it went south or she passed away and I suddenly found myself single, I would likely do things differently. 

I know myself so much better now and have the gift of more accurate self appraisal. I know my strengths and weaknesses and my good traits and bad. I might be more open to sharing some of those to choose another partner.

The reality is though that nobody at age 23 or really any age below 25 is going to know themselves well enough to accurately assess themselves, even if they wanted to. So how could you not keep things about yourself from your potential spouse if you don't even know yourself well enough to know they could be a problem.

I will also say that age is not the only detriment to accurate self assessment and introspection. I know plenty of people in their 40s and 50s who don't seem to examine themselves at all. So I don't think it's just an age thing but certainly more of an emotional maturity thing. 

Once you really know yourself, warts and all, you can likely choose a more suitable partner. The problem is that many people never become emotionally mature enough to do this. This is where commitment to the marriage from both parties is so huge. You have to work through this stuff together.


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## Dycedarg (Apr 17, 2014)

The biggest mistake women make going into marriage is assuming their man will change.

The biggest mistake men make going into marriage is assuming their woman will not.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Mostlycontent said:


> This thread was not intended to be about me but rather a general discussion of the perceptions men and women have going into marriage and how they differ. *I gave a few examples in my own marriage to get the ball rolling not be critiqued by those who likely also are riddled with less than admirable traits as well. There's no point in that.
> *
> There are dozens and dozens of character traits and all of us have good ones and bad ones. That is not the point of this thread.
> 
> ...


Did not bother to read past this point. You seem to have not done as your wife had wished and improved who you are as a person. All the best to her. And no I am not riddled with undesirable traits, quite the opposite


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Holland said:


> Did not bother to read past this point. You seem to have not done as your wife had wished and improved who you are as a person. All the best to her. And no I am not riddled with undesirable traits, quite the opposite



You seem to be very thin skinned and always looking for a fight. That's two undesirable traits right there. If you also believe that you only have desirable traits then self deception and delusion would be another.

See, I hardly know you and I can already name three.

Good luck with that.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Mostlycontent said:


> You seem to be very thin skinned and always looking for a fight. That's two undesirable traits right there. If you also believe that you only have desirable traits then self deception and delusion would be another.
> 
> See, I hardly know you and I can already name three.
> 
> Good luck with that.


To quote my son "cool story bro" >


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

SunnyT said:


> There's an old adage:
> 
> Women marry expecting their husbands to change, while men marry expecting their wives to never change.


Maybe this is why such men are probably disappointed...

Expecting a 20 something year old W to look the same for the rest of her life is obviously pretty deluded, but so is expecting her to remain the same despite the huge life changes of becoming a W, a mother and a mature adult...

People either grow (together) or they grow apart, and growth always involves some form of change...


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