# My list of hell!



## MaybeItsMe?

We are both in our late 20s and have been together for over11 years. It has never been easy but as soon as we where married about 2 years ago it went quickly down hill. She refuses to come with me to talk to some one about our relationship and I don't seem to be able to get through to her in any way. Its like a stone

At the moment I can't really come up with a big long essay so I have listed the issues below
*
Lets start with my bad side*


I had a mental breakdown some years back and I have become very withdrawn. I don't like crowds or people any more.

I bite my nails

My time keeping can be pretty crap at times

I have been know to pick my nose (I know its disgusting!)

I can shout and smash things when I am angry,

My job is stressful and my manager has bull****ted his way into the role and so has no real skills in the field we work in. Due to this I have lot of pressure on my back that he dumps across and some times I have to do long hours

I have lost my self confidence

I sometimes wont let an argument just drop

In the past I have taken her for granted (many years ago)

I used to play computer games a lot but that stopped about 3 years ago

I don't have any friends anymore (see first bullet)

I make stupid mistakes such as buying an item I had already asked her to get me for my Birthday (this annoys me)

I don't sleep very well but also I find it hard to get up in the morning

I do a lot of Internet browsing / reading for my job while at home. 

I some times snore when under lots of stress or when very very tired

This list can go on and on probably


*Now onto my wife....*


She is unhappy most days mainly with me and our relationship

She is always angry and easily provoked / frustrated, she can't do simple tasks such as help put a bed together without getting angry with it and walking off ( I walk around on egg shells!)

picky and overly critical of me (see above point)

99 good things in the week are overshadowed by the 1 mistake I have made

makes her mind up and it can't be changed. She quotes me incorrectly, I try to tell her that’s not what I said, she doesn't argue about it but she will always come back to the quote and it goes in a huge circle again. It seems as if she is stuck in a loop.

She seems to see things as right or wrong with no ability to give leeway or explain away a mistake.

She can't see the difference between malicious intent and an accident / mistake and will punish both in the same way.

doesn't care if she hurts or upsets me, no change in her emotion even when I am is pieces. In fact no emotion other than anger and frustration.

She is very defensive, I can't criticise her in any way no matter how I sugar coat it

no effort (lost hope?)

says she feels awkward around me

no sex, no desire not even a kiss

Discussions turn into her being sarcastic and trying to say I am blaming her

She says “our relationship is ****” or “we don’t get on any more”

When we do have a good time she will later belittle it and say its not good enough or is crap that we only enjoy those activity’s

Says her friends have better marriages

says she wants to go on holiday like they do when I say “ok lets do it” then backs out saying she can't afford it. If I then ask why she blames our relationship for the fact that she can't afford it there is no answer other then walking off or getting angry

She has to have what ever it is she wants, she wanted a new car so we went to see it and I didn't like to look of it, it may have been in an accident and it had definitely had a hard life. When I brought up these possible problems she asked “should I not buy it then?” when I said If it was me I wouldn't she stormed off angry with me and was like that for days. When we did find a car for her a few days later she was happy again but then asked for $2000 from me to help her pay for it. (she doesn't like me talking about that though so its never brought up)

Seems to be unable to control her spending. I have dragged her out of her debt a few times but it just creeps up and up again.

Pushes other people away, she can't keep friends for more than 12 months (none of them turned up to our wedding) People have asked to be moved away from her in the office and managers have asked for her to not work under them any more

Doesn't seem to be able to step back and see the big picture, can't see it from any other point of view. 

No real empathy for others

Tells me she doesn't want to hear about my problems any more, then a few weeks later says that I don't talk to her about my issues.

Tells me to make sure I tell her if she is making a mistake or upsetting me but hates it when I say anything (I don't any more)

She asked me to buy her a puppy (it was about $1000) she then found it hard to cope with it to the point where only me stepping in stopped her getting rid of it. Still 15 months on she struggles with the dog (its the most lovely little thing you have ever seen and very well behaved thanks to my mum and I training it for her!)

Doesn't act like a wife to me, more like my mother one minute and my child the next depending on if she is angry or wants something

Doesn't keep up with her side of the house work. I some times have no clean clothes and when I try to wash them she says I am only doing it to point out that she hasn't done them. I sadly some times have to go to work with dirty shirt and trousers on just to keep her happy (I dare not say anything to her about this) I also some times buy new cloths and hide them from her so I can wash them without her knowing

Very nasty drunk, I can't go out on a night out with her any more as she will just lay into me

Like I said at the very top of the list I had a mental breakdown some years back and I have become very withdrawn. She says I used to be outgoing, funny and sexy and now I’m not

When I ask her if she can see why I find the above comment hurtful she says she can't, when I ask if she can even see that it could be hurtful and ask for a yes or no answer she can't answer and walks off

*A bit more info...*


I do some times get very angry with her and even though I try my best I do sometimes shout. I know I shouldn't and I really do try and keep a lid on it.

I do try and buy her little gifts a few times a month just to spark up her day 

I call her every day to make sure she is ok in work and tell her I love her.

I look after the dog, take it to the vets, out for walks, feed it etc

I do my fair share of the house work (sometimes more than my fair share)

I financially support us even though she has a full time job (she hates me saying anything about this, this is a big no no)

I treat her nieces as if they where my own children.



I do all the little things like pick her and her friends up from nights out and take them home or go to the shops for her when she needs something, give her back rubs, foot rubs, look after her when she is ill and I would never ever cheat on her. To be honest there isn't anything I wouldn't do for her but I feel taken for granted and whatever I do isn't good enough anyway. I know this is only my side of the story and there’s a chance that maybe I am totally insane and this is a very warped view of what is really going on. I really do hope it is me going mad because I know that I can fix that! Oh and also when it is going good (it lasts for about 1 week normally) its fantastic and she is a really lovely person. I enjoy every last second with her nice side while it lasts and I have to keep reminding myself it not going to last long but be happy for the next few days. Nothing makes me more happy then her opening the door with a big smile on her face I just give her a big hug and smile myself, its like I have my life back. Its very much like living with Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.

I will be honest I have posted this because I think am starting to struggle to cope, my ability to keep my mind straight has reduced, I some times can't remember my drive to work, its as if I have the entire drive missing from my memory, I can't remember what day it is, some one asked my age the other day and I couldn't remember that either (that was very odd!) and suicide has cropped up in my mind a few times when I am at my lowest. I am a fully grown man and I have a tear rolling down my cheek as I type this, In fact for some reason I cry a lot these days for no real reason, I feel embarrassed even typing that.

I think I am a good person, I hope I am anyway and I know I am not perfect and some of her anger and frustration is valid, I annoy myself when I a late for things but I really don't think I deserve all of the negativity.

Thanks for reading my list!


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## ku1980rose

I notice the two lists are very different lengths. I'm not saying you're wrong, but if she were to make the lists would they be opposite? Maybe you don't see what she sees? Maybe she doesn't see what you see? Have you shown her this list?

On the other hand, you sound a lot like my husband whom I'm separating from. Do you consider yourself a "nice guy"? Have you read about "manning up"? Please don't take this in the wrong way. I just see a lot of what I am wanting from my husband in what you say. It is great that you do nice things for her and take care of her, but check out the "manning up" and see if it fits you. Just my two cents.

I hope you get the answers that you are looking for. I'm sorry for your situation.


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## MaybeItsMe?

Yes, I know my list is smaller than hers and I am 100% sure she has a huge list about me 

Manning up doesn't work. I have tried what is called the 180 here and she finds that annoying. She like the nice things I do and if i don't do them well thats just more ammunition. I feel like a jester to be honest.


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## pidge70

Has she ever seen a psychologist or psychiatrist? She sounds like I was and I was diagnosed with BPD amongst other things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MaybeItsMe?

pidge70 said:


> Has she ever seen a psychologist or psychiatrist? She sounds like I was and I was diagnosed with BPD amongst other things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


no and there is no chance of her going to see anyone. I once asked her why and she let slip she was worried it was her fault and didn't want to be told that by anyone. she would deny ever saying that now though.

Maybe I should go alone and make sure its not me thats got the issue and I am just projecting that on to her?

Some times this song says it all to me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjFzUVCQ1vM

If you've heard all they got to say
You looked but turned away
Walkaway, walkaway
If you've said all you got to say
And now the words just slip away
Just walkaway, walkaway, walkaway
That's what they say, what they say, what they say
You gotta walkaway

If you've played all the games they play
You played them yesterday
Walkaway, walkaway
If you've been, where they want to go
Seen all they got to show
Just walkaway, walkaway, walkaway
That's what they say, what they say, what they say
You gotta walkaway

And now you must believe me
You never lose your dreams
And now you must believe me
We never lose our dreams

If you've proved all there is to prove
Got nothing left to use
Walkaway, walkaway
If you've done, all there is to do
There ain't nothing left for you
Just walkaway, walkaway, walkaway
That's what they say, what they say, what they say
Walkaway, walkaway,walkaway
That's what they say, what they say, what they say
You gotta walkaway
Today


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## pidge70

So many of those traits of hers that you listed are traits of BPD. One of the things about living with a BPD'er, you will seriously question your own sanity. Maybe you could Google BPD and see if she does have all nine traits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MaybeItsMe?

pidge70 said:


> So many of those traits of hers that you listed are traits of BPD. One of the things about living with a BPD'er, you will seriously question your own sanity. Maybe you could Google BPD and see if she does have all nine traits.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she is BPD what can I do? I can't go on like this, its destroying me.


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## Trying2figureitout

You need to apologize for ALL your transgressions sincerely. You then need to tell her that you are on a personal journey to be a better man. Ask her if it is acceptable that you talk to her at certain intervals about things you learned in your journey to keep her up to date. Tell her you love her and are committed to improving your relationship and your marriage to her.

If she accepts great, if not great just give her a card that says anytime she can use it to get and update when ever she wants. That you are committed to improving yourself since you don't feel you've been a great husband to her and the best person you could be.

Now let her go! Don't expect anything from her at all.

Immediately stop all the annoying things you do, quit the compulsive behavior in smothering her. Really start to listen to her closely and be there to validate her feelings don't solve her problems just validate that the way she feels you understand you agree. Do your share of housework but not much more than 50% and really be there for her as her rock. Be the steadying influence. Do not do all her housework she hasn't behaved well enough for that yet. Let her get mad. But don't engage in a fight just keep doing more than half. With a smile.

Be happy, if she lays in to you simply state that you will not tolerate being talked to in that fashion and when she calm down you would be happy to listen to her when she is calm and collected. Don't pick or continue fights calmly walk away when she is behaving badly. Only tolerate what you will allow as a man if it gets out of hand smile and walk away peacefully from the situation. Tell her you will be glad to discuss anything that you really like to talk to her when she is not upset.

Remember a man stays calm and collected NEVER upset in front of his wife. Leave if you need to vent don't let her see any frustration.

Apologize immediately for any mistakes you make. Don't try to explain just apologize and move on.

Be a man.
Find ways to make yourself happy, you don't need her validation to make you happy.

You will be in control this will make you happy the goal of a functional marriage will make you happy.
Take the high road always.


Now every so often update her on your progress. Let her know what you discovered and how you are going to apply these discoveries to her... then do that consistently. The idea is to learn to behave as a man in control of his household and to stop the overall dysfunction. You start to build her up compliment her, notice the stuff she does, get excited when you talk to her. Talk in front of others with her in earshot about all the great qualities she has. Don't expect anything in return. Never try to change her accept her the way she is and compliment the good about her, ignore the bad. She will eventually see good behavior gets rewarded and if you are behaving good that will eventually create a sense of peace in your home.

Do this for a while then ask her on a date where she can meet the new you. Take her somewhere fun and date her again. Let her see the new you. Tell her you really want to get to know her at a deeper level. Keep dating her without going for sex. You want to show her she is more than just a sex toy.

It's hard work but sooner or later she will want to live up to your standard. let her change herself. If there is still any love left this should work... plan on six month minimum. Once you get her felling better about you and herself then their is the possibility of sex returning but go slow and let her make the move towards you. If it happens to fast resit her and tell her not yet that you want to get to know her as a person better first.

At the very least if thing don't work out you can hold your head high and know how to relate better to other women. They eat this stuff up.

Good Luck.

Most of what both of you have going on is a way of acting out in a dysfunctional marriage. Stop always reacting to her bad behavior. Only tune in good behaviors. If you get your marriage functional by not tolerating anything less. both of your bad behaviors will diminish and good behaviors will replace them. You will allow an environment for her to see she does have the guy she loves and want to keep him happy.

I'm the one doing the 6-month celibacy to fix my sexless marriage that has been going on for two years of endless trying. My situation is much calmer than yours but my wife shut off emotions for me two years ago. The concepts work we get along much better. I'm confident this method will fix our marriage.

It's a calculated risk, I'm much happier because I'm in control and I believe there to be a much better sex life in my future in 2012. My wife's happier also. Everyday I observe her and compliment her, talk to her and validate her feelings. I touch her non-sexually more. I offer to do things that make her life easier. communicate more about my day and ask about hers. I remember to ask her about minute details women love to know you hear them. Treat your wife like the most important person in the world. pay attention to her when in public. Be very detailed in any compliment it should take at least five seconds to say be descriptive why you are giving a compliment. Keep your eyes on her let her look away first. Be the man she wants.

She is a lump of clay you need to gently mold her every day. Take every interaction as a way to build her esteem up.

You put a wall around her heart it's going to take time to break that wall down.


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## pidge70

If she is BPD, NONE of the above will work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MaybeItsMe?

I see what you mean about BPD but I am going to try Trying2s advice as well. Last time I tried this I was told to stop trying to be the hero, if I tried to show improvement I was "bigging myself up" but maybe I should stick too it no mater how hard she tries to make it.

I'm not sure why she hates me trying to improve myself the "bigging myself up" thing is very odd. I can't even talk about any success I have had in work or my general life without her saying it. She wasn't always like this, I was warned by her mother that she was very stubborn and she was right bit it seems to have moved on from stubbornness.

The sad thing is I have lost my wife, she is in there somewhere and I do get to see her sometimes but she has been taken over, its some times as if she is possessed! I miss her, I miss her smile, her laugh, hugs, feeling wanted and not like a bit of dirt on someone shoe. I will keep supporting her for as long as I can but I need to give myself a time frame, I expect she will leave me first though.


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## DoYouWoo

You need to work for yourself - happy in your job = less stress = less anger = less depression = more sociable = better atmosphere at home. Just my 2 cents!


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## MaybeItsMe?

Yes its a route I have looked into. I doubt it will change my wife though. I am back to the doctors on Tuesday to go back on the happy pills I can just blank it all out then. Not a fix but I don't know what else to do.


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## MaybeItsMe?

My wife said she is leaving tomorrow. She said it was because I was talking to a girl 11 years ago and I lied to her about it and because I texted an ex 11 years ago both times where none sexually. I didnt touch any of these people in any way and it was during my breakdown so I can't really remember too much due to the medication I was on (it has since been banned as it was found to send people mad, I think one guy killed and cut up his entire family!) She doesn't see this as a reason for my unusual behaviour. We spoke about this 11 years ago and once my medication was changed I was back to me again. Also I was just a kid back then 17 / 18 years old.

She also said it was because a few years ago I asked her to go to the shop for me a few times and was late all the time (this is true, I went through a period of leaving her waiting all the time, I know it was a mistake and have since fixed that.) Both of these where maybe 3 years ago. None of these issues are after our marriage.

I don't know why she married me if it was such an issue. I have got much better in the past 2 years, I can go out and meet people no problem and I'm much better in crowded places. If she was so upset about what went on 11 years ago why did she say her vows? Is this just her looking for a justification for being how she is and for leaving me?

Can anyone help me understand what's going on here? My wife is leaving and I don't really know why. I think I will stay single for the rest of my life after this.

Ps

Why do I still love her after all this? I wish I hated her.


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## Trying2figureitout

MaybeItsMe? said:


> My wife said she is leaving tomorrow. She said it was because I was talking to a girl 11 years ago and I lied to her about it and because I texted an ex 11 years ago both times where none sexually. I didnt touch any of these people in any way and it was during my breakdown so I can't really remember too much due to the medication I was on (it has since been banned as it was found to send people mad, I think one guy killed and cut up his entire family!) She doesn't see this as a reason for my unusual behaviour. We spoke about this 11 years ago and once my medication was changed I was back to me again. Also I was just a kid back then 17 / 18 years old.
> 
> She also said it was because a few years ago I asked her to go to the shop for me a few times and was late all the time (this is true, I went through a period of leaving her waiting all the time, I know it was a mistake and have since fixed that.) Both of these where maybe 3 years ago. None of these issues are after our marriage.
> 
> I don't know why she married me if it was such an issue. I have got much better in the past 2 years, I can go out and meet people no problem and I'm much better in crowded places. If she was so upset about what went on 11 years ago why did she say her vows? Is this just her looking for a justification for being how she is and for leaving me?
> 
> Can anyone help me understand what's going on here? My wife is leaving and I don't really know why. I think I will stay single for the rest of my life after this.
> 
> Ps
> 
> Why do I still love her after all this? I wish I hated her.


Just stay the course...let her go!

Work on yourself.. be upbeat like I said around her. Don't let this affect you.. don't plead... don't harass. Just state that you will be here for her if she ever needs anything and when she's ready to reconsider leaving you'll be there for her. That you are sorry she feels that way and you wish her well.

You can't make her come back, she needs to decide for herself. Do not pursue her at all it'll just push her farther away. Do a 180... just be nice, positive and upbeat whenever she contacts you. If she sees you are not that upset that will get her thinking twice about leaving. Work on yourself so if she doesn't return you are ready for the next lady that comes into your life.

Perhaps time apart is what she needs..... let her have the space. She needs time alone to reconsider her life with you. She might find it isn't so bad after a while of being apart and lonely.

Let her contact you.

One thing to remember... IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT
It's her and her thoughts.... you have done nothing wrong!
She's bring up old stuff to justify her unusual actions.

Be the rock... be the adult... keep your head up.
Enjoy the peace and quiet!


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## MaybeItsMe?

Thankyou.

If she goes I will never let her back. It will be hard but I can't let her do this to me again.


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## Lydia

Love yourself and you won't need her. She will either choose to shape up or leave, and you will be a happier person either way.


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## MaybeItsMe?

I don't know what she'll do next she has made many threats to leave and to be fair so have I. 

This was her worst and most hurtful outburst, but she does the usual ask questions, demand answers, if she doesn't like my answer demand another different answer until I say something she can take exception to then act like the victim. 

I keep telling myself I have already lost her so if she moves out I don't lose anything more than has already been taken away, its almost like a grieving process in a strange way. I know I haven't been the best husband in the world and yes I am to blame for a lot of what has gone wrong but she won't allow me to fix it its never good enough for her. What she needs is a buff guy, who lives in a mansion, has no way of being hurt, has enough free time and cash do most of the leg work, doesn't need or want sex, always has a plan for something to entertain her and can put up with not being loved.

That's not me.


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## MaybeItsMe?

She has now changed her story. She wants to go because of my problems with crowds. She is still here but said she's too tired to pack tonight and will go tomorrow.


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## MaybeItsMe?

A quick update for anyone who wants it

She is still here, I have been put back on the meds and will be building them up to la la land strength over the next few months. Its a shame as I lose myself when I am on them but I don't see any other way at the moment. I am trying to get all my complex tasks such as my Cisco certification out the way before the meds start to take hold.


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## Uptown

MaybeItsMe, I agree with Pidge that the behavior you are describing are classic traits of BPD, which my exW has. These include the verbal abuse, temper tantrums, inappropriate anger, lack of impulse control, constant blaming, always being "the victim," black-white thinking, and a cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back. Only a professional can determine whether those traits are so severe as to satisfy all of the diagnostic criteria for having full blown BPD. 

Yet, for the purposes of deciding whether to remain married to her, you don't need to know whether her traits surpass the diagnostic threshold. Even when those traits fall well short of that threshold, they can make your life miserable and destroy a marriage. Moreover, strong BPD traits are easy to identify when occurring in a woman you've known for 11 years. There is nothing subtle or nuanced about behavior such as verbal abuse and temper tantrums. I caution, however, that BPD traits are not something that would have appeared only in the last few years. They are persistent. When you were dating, they would have disappeared during the infatuation period but would have resurfaced as the infatuation evaporated. You therefore should have started seeing red flags for this behavior after the honeymoon period ended.


MaybeItsMe? said:


> She is unhappy most days mainly with me and our relationship


If your W is a BPDer (i.e., has strong BPD traits), she has been unhappy since childhood. Making her happy is not your responsibility and, even if it were, it would be impossible to do. Only SHE can make herself happy. Hence, if you want a happy wife, you have to marry a woman who is already happy and emotionally healthy. It took me 15 years to learn that.


> She seems to see things as right or wrong with no ability to give leeway or explain away a mistake.


That is called "black-white thinking" (aka, "all-or-nothing thinking"). It will show up as her claiming you "never" or "always" do such and such. It also is evident in the way she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad." Moreover, she will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other -- in only ten seconds -- based only on an innocuous remark or minor infraction. 

B-W thinking occurs in BPDers because they are extremely uncomfortable with ambiguities and mixed feelings and with cognitive dissonance (where one part of your mind believes something contradicting what is believed in another part of your mind). A BPDer therefore shoehorns her perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations into a B-W dichotomy -- not seeing that real people live in the gray area in between those polar extremes. This is why strong BPD traits are said to constitute a "thought distortion." This is true to a lesser degree, by the way, for all of us. Every time you get intense feelings (e.g., infatuation or anger) your judgement of other peoples' intentions becomes distorted -- which is you try to wait until you cool off before making decisions or taking actions.


> She is always angry and easily provoked


A BPDer carries enormous anger, hurt, and shame inside just under the skin. This is carried from early childhood, when damage was done to her emotional core. Hence, you don't have to do a thing -- not one thing -- to create the anger. It is always there. You only have to say or do sdome minor thing that TRIGGERS the anger that is already there. It will suddenly be released in ten seconds.


> I walk around on egg shells!


Of course you do, being married to an emotional time bomb. That is why the #1 best selling BPD book (targeted to nonBPD spouses like you) is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells._


> She is picky and overly critical of me.


A BPDer is convinced she always is "the victim." Because she has a weak, fragile sense of who she is, the strongest thread of a self image usually is that false notion of being a victim. A BPDer therefore maintains a death grip on that false self image and will tolerate living with you only if you continue to validate it by playing one of two roles.

The first role is being "the savior," a role you played during the infatuation period lasting about 3 to 6 months. During that period, she thought you were perfect and that -- unlike all previous BFs -- you would save her from her unhappiness. The implication of your being "the savior," of course, is that she must be a victim in need of saving. Sadly, that illusion quickly evaporates along with the infatuation.

Since the honeymoon ended, there is only one role left for you to play: being "the perpetrator." As long as you keep allowing her to blame you for every misfortune that befalls her, she will keep you around because you are validating her false self image of being "the victim." Once you leave her, she will be telling people how awful you were -- just the way she talks about the BFs she had before you. She is the victim. They are all considered to be perpetrators.


> 99 good things in the week are overshadowed by the 1 mistake I have made


This is one of the hallmarks of having strong BPD traits -- the feeling of entitlement to all the sacrifices you make and the inability to have a lasting appreciation. Because a BPDer cannot control her emotions, she experiences feelings every day that are so intense that they push aside all the good feelings she had before about you. This is why it is impossible, with a BPDer, to build up a store of appreciation and good will on which to draw during the hard times. Trying to do so is as futile as building a sandcastle beside the sea. It will be washed aside by the next emotional tide flowing through her mind.


> She quotes me incorrectly, I try to tell her that’s not what I said, she doesn't argue about it but she will always come back to the quote and it goes in a huge circle again. It seems as if she is stuck in a loop.


A BPDer is not good at intellectually challenging her intense feelings. Instead, she is convinced that any feeling that is that intense MUST be right. She therefore will produce whatever rationalization that pops into her head to justify the feeling. This is why a BPDer will often make such ridiculous "arguments" that you simply marvel any adult can say such a thing while keeping a straight face. If I challenged my exW's allegations, for example, she would either replace that argument with another that is equally ludicrous -- or eventually loop back to the original argument as you describe. 

This is what happens when you try to argue with a woman who, although very intelligent and knowledgeable, has the emotional development of a four year old. In effect, you are trying to argue with the very angry little girl that is control of her mind. The logical adult part of her mind is being "split off," placed out of reach of her conscious mind. You therefore cannot carry on a calm, rational discussion about any sensitive topic because you have only ten seconds to do so. In that short time, any attempt to discuss sensitive matters will trigger her anger, bringing her child back into the driver's seat. And, with a BPDer, nearly ever issue is considered a "sensitive" issue.


> I can't criticise her in any way no matter how I sugar coat it


Like I said, you have ten seconds before the kid is in charge. It therefore does not matter -- at all -- that you have caught her in a calm, apparently receptive mood. And she is so super-sensitive to perceived infractions, she may even take offense at the sugar coating itself (thinking you are talking down to her). The statements and actions that will trigger a release of her anger consist of anything that she interprets as posing a threat to her two great fears: abandonment and engulfment (from intimacy). Because you never know what trivial thing will trigger one fear or the other, you are always walking on eggshells. 

Your predicament is made all the worse by the fact that the two fears are at opposite ends of the same spectrum. This means that, as you back away from one fear to avoid triggering it, you will necessarily be drawing closer to triggering the other fear. For example, when you had a very intimate evening or great weekend together, you likely found her -- the next morning -- creating an argument out of nothing to push you away. For a BPDer, intimacy is experienced as suffocating and engulfing, making her feel as though she is losing her identity by merging into your strong personality. It is a frightening experience in which she feels she is vanishing into thin air. She therefore will feel that you are somehow "controlling" and dominating her (nevermind that she is the controlling one).

Yet, as you back way to give her breathing room, you will eventually trigger her great fear of abandonment. It may take days or weeks for that to occur but, unless the BPDer has split you black permanently, it likely will occur. At that point, she will return behaving extra caring and sweet to pull you back into the R. This is why one hallmark of a BPDer relationship is cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back.


> When we do have a good time she will later belittle it and say its not good enough or is crap that we only enjoy those activity’s


Yes, that is the way emotionally unstable people behave. As I said, a BPDer's feelings are so intense that they MUST be true -- so she will ignore all facts to the contrary and she will not hesitate to rewrite history in her mind. If this seems strange, keep in mind that you and I do the same thing every time we experience intense feelings. We therefore differ from BPDers only in degree, not in kind. Indeed, during our childhood, we behaved that way all day long. Even during high school, we likely had some strong BPD traits left. That is why therapists usually wait until a person is at least 18 before trying to diagnose BPD.


> She has to have what ever it is she wants ...unable to control her spending.


Being unable to control or regulate her emotions, a BPDer has little impulse control. It therefore is common to see a BPDer acting impulsively. Moreover, because she has no stable self image to guide her, she will be wildly interested in something one day and then quickly lose interest. My exW, for example, would love a new purchase for a week or two and then totally lose interest in it. Her mother was the same way -- she would love our gifts for two weeks and then exchange them at the store because they were the wrong size, wrong shape, or wrong color. Similarly, my exW spent $5,000 on fabric and $6,000 on sewing machines. In 15 years, she made one blouse, one dress, one vest, and a cat collar. And I bought her a $3,500 piano she desperately wanted -- but she played it only five times.


> Pushes other people away, she can't keep friends for more than 12 months (none of them turned up to our wedding)


A high functioning BPDer typically gets along fine with acquaintenances, business colleagues, and total strangers. None of those folks pose a threat because there is no relationship to abandon -- and no intimacy to engulf her. Lord help them, however, if they make the mistake of trying to draw close and form a close business relationship or lasting friendship. Then they will start triggering her two great fears. And, like you, they will find that there is no "Goldilocks position" midway between the two polar extremes where they can safely avoid triggering her anger. This is why BPDers typically have no long term close friends unless they live a long distance apart.


> No real empathy for others.


The lack of empathy is another BPD trait. IME, a high functioning BPDer can have great empathy at times, especially for total strangers and others posing no threat. She will not be able to maintain it consistently, however, and cannot be empathetic while splitting loved ones as "black." This is why it is common to see some high functioning BPDers in caregiving professions where they are nursing or doctoring folks with much care all day long -- and then they will go home that night and abuse the very people who love them.


> I think am starting to struggle to cope, my ability to keep my mind straight has reduced, I some times can't remember my drive to work, its as if I have the entire drive missing from my memory,


MaybeItsMe, that is called "splitting," a form of dissociation.It occurs when one part of your mind is put out of touch with the other parts. It happens many times a day to everyone -- every time a person is daydreaming, for example. It also occurs -- as you observe -- when we are driving and suddenly realize that we cannot recall a single thing about the last ten miles, not even the three lighted intersections we drove through. Another example is walking into the kitchen and, as you open the refrigerator door, suddenly realizing you have no idea what you were coming to get. This is splitting. 

While your subconscious was carefully driving you through three intersections or walking you to the kitchen, your conscious mind was a thousand miles away thinking about something else. Although we all do it, BPDers do it far more than the rest of us to escape their painful realities. Not surprisingly, when a man has been living with a BPDer many years, it is common for him to start adopting many of her behavioral traits. Moreover, your depression can cause you to escape your reality in that manner. This is why depressed folks don't even want to get out of bed. They escape by lying around and living in their daydreams.


> When it is going good (it lasts for about 1 week normally) its fantastic and she is a really lovely person.


Yes, while a BPDer is splitting you white, she is very VERY good. At that time, you likely will see a warmth of expression and emotional purity that otherwise is seen only in children. My exW, for example, was so immediately likeable and disarming that, within a half hours, total strangers would feel like they had known her for months. The highs of being split white and the lows of being split black are comparable to the highs and lows of heroine usage and withdrawal. This is one reason why a relationship with a BPDer quickly can become so toxic and addictive, especially for excessive caregivers like you and me. Our problem is that our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are). Indeed, we have difficulty feeling that we are truly loved if the woman does not also desperately need us. This is why you are at risk, when leaving your W, of running into the arms of another woman just like her.


> I call her every day to make sure she is ok in work and tell her I love her. I look after the dog.... give her back rubs, foot rubs, look after her when she is ill and I would never ever cheat on her.


As I said, you are a caregiver like me. Normal guys (who have strong personal boundaries) will leave a BPDer within a year after the infatuation period ends. We caregivers, however, will stay for years -- 15 in my case -- being convinced that, if we can only figure out what it is we are doing wrong, we can restore our loved one to that perfect "soul mate" we saw at the beginning. Sadly, that is an impossible task. And the "soul mate" we saw was largely an illusion. As I explain in other threads, it is mostly the result of "mirroring" that the BPDer does when infatuated.


> Its very much like living with Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.


It is common for a partner or spouse of a BPDer to feel like he is living with a person who is half way to having a multiple personality disorder. That is the feeling you get when living with an emotionally unstable person. You would not get that feeling if you were living with a narcissist because a narcissist is stable and predictable.


> She is still here but said she's too tired to pack tonight and will go tomorrow.


As the years go by, a BPDer becomes increasingly resentful of your failure to make her happy -- an impossible task. This is why BPDers typically leave their spouses after 12 to 15 years (15 years in my case). Yet, until they reach that point, they usually keep coming back after they leave because they loath being alone. Being unstable, they have a strong desire to be around someone with a strong, stable personality who will ground them -- serving as an emotional anchor. This tendency of BPDers to keep pulling you back after pushing you away is why the #2 best selling BPD book is called _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me._


> There’s a chance that maybe I am totally insane and this is a very warped view of what is really going on. I really do hope it is me going mad because I know that I can fix that!


Yes, there is a chance. Yet, as Pidge said, it is very common for the partners and spouses of BPDers to feel like they may be losing their minds. Indeed, therapists see far more of the spouses coming in to find out if they are crazy than they ever see of the BPDers (who are loath to go to a therapist). If you were living with a sociopath or narcissist, you would be abused and feel depressed and miserable. You would not feel "crazy," however. Of the ten personality disorders, BPD is the ONLY ONE that is notorious for making a large share of the nonBPD partners start questioning their own sanity.

BPDers have extreme emotions, which lead them to actions that can range from puzzling to brutal. This makes living with them painful and confusing. They can't deal with the reality of their behaviors. On some level they realize how hurtful they are, yet accepting this major flaw in themselves is just too painful to a person who already has self loathing. The last thing a BPDer wants to find is one more thing to add to the long list of things she hates about herself. So she will "spin" your reality to make hers less painful. 

One of the most common defense mechanism they use is projection, where she will attribute her shortcomings and mistakes to you. As I said above, you become "the perpetrator," a trashcan in which she can dispose of all guilt and mistakes. This is why you should not tell her that she has strong BPD traits. If your W has strong traits, she will project the accusation back onto you, believing that you are the one having such traits. 

This spinning of reality is so well known to the partners and spouses of BPDers that they have given it a name: "gaslighting." It is named after the classic 1944 movie, _Gaslight, _in which a husband (Charles Boyer) tries to drive his new bride (Ingrid Bergman) crazy so as to get her institutionalized, allowing him to run off with her family jewels. One of his many tricks is to turn the house gas lights down a tiny bit every day -- all the while claiming that he sees and reads just fine.


> Can anyone help me understand what's going on here? My wife is leaving and I don't really know why.


MaybeItsMe, if this discussion rings a bell, I have several suggestions. First, I suggest you get a copy of the _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ mentioned above. Another excellent book by the same author is _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist. 

_It is important to read more about the nine BPD traits so as to be able to recognize the red flags. This is especially important for caregivers like us because we are so empathetic -- and have such low personal boundaries -- that we have great difficulty distinguishing the problems of our loved one from our own. Hence, when you get a clearer understanding of your W's issues, you will find it much easier -- by subtraction -- to see your codependency issues.

Second, while you are waiting for the book, I suggest you read more about typical BPDer behavior in Blacksmith's thread about his wife. My posts there begin at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-complicated-marriage-dynamic.html#post358403. You may want to also check out Berilo's painful experiences with his wife. My posts there start at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/29373-distressed-3.html#post391827. 

Third, if those descriptions of typical BPDer behavior sound very familiar, I suggest you visit a clinical psychologist by yourself -- for at least a session or two -- to confirm what it is you are dealing with. Even if your W were going to a therapist, relying on her therapist for advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her attorney during the divorce. _Her therapist is not your friend._ He is bound by professional ethics to protect his sick client (which will be her, even if you attend some of the sessions). I mention this because therapists are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer the name of her disorder -- for reasons I've discussed at length in other threads.

Fourth, MaybeItsMe, I suggest that you start participating -- or, at least, lurking -- at BPDfamily.com, which is the most active BPD site I've found that is targeted solely to the partners of BPDers. There you will be able to read the shared experiences of hundreds of guys who have fallen in love with BPDers. They can give you valuable tips on leaving because divorcing a BPDer usually gets very nasty very quick. They tend to be mean and vindictive when they are splitting you black, as you well know. Finally, I urge you to start taking better care of YOURSELF for a change, Caregiver.


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## MaybeItsMe?

Thank you for that fantastic post. I am looking into the book now and will take a look at the website. 

Once again, thanks.


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## pidge70

I truly hope the best for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

MaybeItsMe? said:


> If she is BPD what can I do? I can't go on like this, its destroying me.


I lived with this for years with Pidge. She didn't become self aware and try to change until she saw I was on my way out the door. She had to hit rock bottom. I will say she is SO MUCH BETTER now. There are still moments but all in all she is doing quite well. I hope the same can come from your situation.


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## Uptown

MaybeItsMe, I caution that the vast majority of BPDers never attain the self awareness and ego strength that Pidge has achieved. Although I've communicated with many self-aware BPDers online, they are so rare that I've never knowingly met one in my private life. Moreover, as you can see for yourself above, Pidge has a powerful incentive your W doesn't have: her husband, Joe, is the spittin' image of Clint Eastwood.


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## MaybeItsMe?

Uptown said:


> MaybeItsMe, I caution that the vast majority of BPDers never attain the self awareness and ego strength that Pidge has achieved. Although I've communicated with many self-aware BPDers online, they are so rare that I've never knowingly met one in my private life. Moreover, as you can see for yourself above, Pidge has a powerful incentive your W doesn't have: her husband, Joe, is the spittin' image of Clint Eastwood.




I am sad to say I doubt she will ever admit it and she is getting worse all the time. 

She did once say she didn't want to go to see some one becuase she was worried they would say it was all her fault. She has never said it again and will never talk about it again. 

She has withheld sex from me for a long time now but its ok with me these days becuase I am not in the place to want to do that with her anymore. At first it hurt though and some time I think I am wasting my life, i'm in my late 20's and should be enjoying my life.


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## pidge70

Unfortunately, she most likely will continue to get worse if she is BPD. Please take care of yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## candice912

Wow! 
Uptown, 
I think that is the best explanation I have ever read. There is only one thing left out, and that is the fact that men can have bpd too. 

I do understand you were explaining to a guy about a wife's behavior. I just wanted to make sure people realize that.


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## Uptown

candice912 said:


> men can have bpd too.


Candice, thanks for your kind words. You make a very good point. For decades, it was widely believed that twice as many women suffer from BPD than do men. It is now generally believed, however, that this difference was due to therapists mistakenly categorizing many of the men as having Antisocial PD. This new view arises because a large scale study of nearly 35,000 American adults (in face to face interviews) found the lifetime incidence for BPD (6% of the population) to be equal for both men and women. This study carries great weight because it is the only large scale study of BPD ever done -- and because it was funded by the National Institute of Mental Health.


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## MaybeItsMe?

I am really starting to want out of this to be honest, its so hard to take the constant insults, put downs etc. I am powerless to make it better between us it seems and she just doesn't care about anything but herself. Also I have counted back the months and I haven't had sex for 6 months, its actually starting to make me a bit angry and rejected.

She got angry with the fan in my laptop today, she said it was pissing her off, I lost my temper and told her to "go **** herself" I try so hard to keep myself from lashing back but I just can't some times, anyway her reply was "is it any wonder why I think you are a ****ing wanker"... I had only just come back from getting her a milk shake she wanted, bloody 5 mile drive!

Its good that my 60mg of Citalopram is keeping me happyish


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## MaybeItsMe?

I have recently found myself making sure she has somthing to do without me and going to bed. I only really noticed this this morning when I looked back at my last few weeks and found I have mainly sat in bed after getting home from work. I didn't even bother getting out of bed this morning, its 01:20pm, she has gone out in a huff and I am still here in bed. I just dont want to go out of this room.

I have no idea why I may do this.

I even went out and bought her a load of DVDs to keep her happy, her christmas pressents are also things that she can do without me.

I have also noticed that I no longer miss having sex with her, it no longer annoys me that she is withholding or using it against me. I wil say that over the past almost 7 months with no sex It has annoyed me and depressed me but I just dont care about it anymore.


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## Uptown

MaybeItsMe? said:


> I have mainly sat in bed after getting home from work. I didn't even bother getting out of bed this morning... I just dont want to go out of this room. I have no idea why I may do this.


Not wanting to get out of bed is a hallmark of depression. And, if you are living with a BPDer, you have plenty to be depressed about. But instead of sitting in bed feeling sorry for yourself, there are many proactive things you should be doing to get on with your life. Did you read the book _Stop Walking on Eggshell_s? (Another good one is _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me.) _ Did you visit the website BPDfamily.com?


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## EleGirl

MaybeItsMe? said:


> Thankyou.
> 
> If she goes I will never let her back. It will be hard but I can't let her do this to me again.


This is easy to say today when you are upset today. Let her go. Work on yourself, become the best person you can be. 

The decision to take her back or not is one for another day.

You might want to read the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs" by Dr. Harvey. You would learn a lot about yourself and about how to have a much better relationship. This will be necessary to fix this marriage if she returns or for a future relationship.


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## lafatherandhusband

LET HER GO. at this point its every man for himself. RUN, don't walk. she is angry and sick and nothing you can do will fix that. i wish i had known about BPD a year ago....
you are letting her drag you under with her. don't do it!! help her pack.


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## ClosedOff

At the very least get a separation from her. If your job is stressing you out so bad, your wife is making it 100 times worse with all the stress at home. No wonder your brain is blanking out at times and you're depressed. That's how it happens to me...whenever I get a sustained, high-intensity stress situation it always triggers depression for me. I even was so preoccupied once with all my anxieties that I turned left right in front of a guy and T-boned in the middle of the intersection. Having that much stress in your life is not good for your health, mental or otherwise! 

BTW, it is possible to get "happy pills" that don't numb you up into nothingness. Citalopram is an older type of antidepressant, the brand name is Celexa. I had better luck myself on Lexapro, the newer version of that drug. If you don't like the way Lexapro makes you feel, you can try any number of others out there (whatever your doc feels is best) such as Wellbutrin, Elavil, Zoloft (my personal favorite), Pristiq, Paxil, Cymbalta, and the list goes on and on. I believe I tried about 5 of them altogether. So don't feel like you have to sacrifice who you are to feel better...there should be a happy medium there.

I would definitely get some therapy/counseling for yourself during this time. I've done that myself and had a lot of positive experiences with it. You want a therapist who asks leading questions and lets you talk, vent and discuss what's happening and who really seems to listen. Usually they will ask questions, make marks on their notepad and then give you "homework" before you go, things you can do to help yourself. For me doing the therapy was just a great way to get out my worst fears and problems with someone who was a neutral 3rd party. I didn't have to prove anything with them. And I feel like it really helped me through some tough times. 

I hope you can move on and be with someone better. Your wife really sounds like she has no redeeming value anymore in this relationship. And it's ruining you. Save yourself!


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## Patricia B. Pina

You should get a divorce.
You are in a hell of a relationship.


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## SoWhat

My god, thank you so much for this thread!! 

I've hurriedly read through everything I could get my hands on and am buying Stop Walking On Eggshells. 
I do not want to try to diagnose her myself, but my GF seems to fit every single trait listed for BPD. Everything. 

Telling her this would be wrong, correct? 
I sometimes marvel, when we fight - usually when she blows up about something trivial (this morning: seeing a car on the road that was the same model as one owned by a girl who she knew had a crush on me a year ago) - about her ability to get mad at almost nothing. I'll say something aloud once out of every 20 times this happens. It generally makes her angrier. 

But if I sounded like I was scientizing it, I think it would be worse. 
(There I go again, walking on eggshells.)


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## Uptown

SoWhat said:


> I do not want to try to diagnose her myself, but my GF seems to fit every single trait listed for BPD. Everything.


SoWhat, there is a world of difference between diagnosing a personality disorder (PD) and spotting strong occurrences of PD traits. You would have to be deaf, dumb and blind to not spot strong traits such as verbal abuse, temper tantrums, and blame-shifting in a woman you've been dating for a year. There is nothing subtle or nuanced in such strong dysfunctional traits.

Before you graduated high school, you already could spot strong selfishness and grandiosity in classmates -- without being able to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could spot extreme shyness and fear of rejection in classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. You could easily spot the class drama queen -- without knowing how to diagnose Histrionic PD. Likewise, you can spot the BPD traits once you read about them. I therefore applaud your willingness to educate yourself about your GF's issues -- as well as your own issues.


> Telling her this would be wrong, correct?


Yes, that is correct. The conventional wisdom at all the BPD websites (targeted to the nonBPD partners) is to advise a BPDer to go to a clinical psychologist -- but NOT to tell her you suspect strong BPD traits. If you do, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing that YOU are the one with strong BPD traits. 

Yet, being the caregiver that I am, I would not leave any stone unturned in trying to help my exW. So, after the divorce, I slipped a copy of a BPD book into a box of things she was coming by to pick up. Doing so did absolutely no good at all. And, of course, she now firmly believes that I am the one suffering from BPD. The reason that projection works so wonderfully in protecting a BPDer's fragile ego is that projection is done entirely at the subconscious level -- allowing the conscious to believe that the projection is true.


> I sometimes marvel, when we fight ... about her ability to get mad at almost nothing.


Although it appears that way, she doesn't really get mad "about almost nothing." The reality -- if your GF is a BPDer -- is that she has been very angry since the age of 3 or 4. She has been carrying that anger just below the surface all those years. Hence, you don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to say or do some trivial thing that TRIGGERS the anger that is already there. This is why it will be released, in only ten seconds, as a temper tantrum or hissy fit.


> I've hurriedly read through everything I could get my hands on and am buying _Stop Walking On Eggshells_.


While you're waiting for the book, I suggest you read T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. The other articles there at BPDfamily.com are excellent also. Another favorite of mine is therapist Shari Schreiber's description of BPDers at IF LOOKS COULD KILL - Anatomy of a Borderline. Schreiber's other articles also are excellent. Please take care, SoWhat.


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## EleGirl

MaybeItsMe? said:


> Yes, I know my list is smaller than hers and I am 100% sure she has a huge list about me
> 
> Manning up doesn't work. I have tried what is called the 180 here and she finds that annoying. She like the nice things I do and if i don't do them well thats just more ammunition. I feel like a jester to be honest.


The 180 is not the same thing as manning up.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

I stopped after reading your list, did not get to your wife's.
Why?
Because at that point, I'm thinking, heck, I can't even live with myself when I am like things on list #1. Let alone try to get another person to live with me. I think your W is right, you need to fix things for yourself. None of those issues seems to involve your W at all, they are stand-alone stickies that are the monkey on your back. It's wrong to ask her to pick fleas off that monkey, which isn't going to do any good really, just keep her occupied while more fleas breed happily on the monkey. Get that?

I see some simple things first.
Go to the doctor and get the sleep thing fixed.
Then the things like buying something you asked for as a gift will stop. You will also be less irritable, and have more confidence, since you'll be more aware.
You had a mental breakdown but if you don't like people and are biting your nails you didn't completely recover. If you came this far you owe it to yourself to keep going. I need to point this out...you should like to be with at least some people. Or, to rephrase, you should be more open-minded about the possibility, because you share the earth with loads of other people, some of whom you need to deal with to get food, shelter, clothing, entertainment, jobs... You're in your 20's, I think it's worth the investment, considering. Sartre said hell is other people...but I think there are limits.
Picking your nose is normal, just don't flick or eat and it's best if people are annoyed with you in the first place not to push the limits...so pick in the shower or in private, buy some tissues, some of the boxes are really nice.
Don't think I'm making light of this.
I'm cruising along merrily because I think you are stuck in some kind of rut where you got the idea, wrongly, that your issues were somehow more complex than they are...maybe you are even holding onto this notion, and it is getting perpetuated and enhanced by your isolation from other people, emotionally and physically.
As for your boss, you feel that he BS'd his way, but he is a risk-taker and he has the job of boss and part of that is not always knowing everything but being the boss and taking risks. Heck, I give my work away for free to help someone do her job and I tell her all the time, I don't want your job, it involves always being here and handling people issues and going out on a limb and managing your life plus a job...I would personally feel over-extended...but if there were no people willing to 'BS' and be willing to make mistakes so they can develop and grow, then there would be no bosses. I don't know if you noticed, demographically there was a baby boom, so the ratio of followers to leaders is kind of slim, and jobs and business environment have changed drastically...you are looking at a lot of pioneers. Now you are young and you could change your viewpoint and develop into appropriate risk taking yourself. It can be fun, and yes, some people will knock you down or try to knock you down for not knowing stuff, but most people will help you because they appreciate that you took on the risk...the rest of them...they obviously are too far out of their own heads and into nitpicking about other people making a living and having a life and taking risks. But first you need sleep. Then fun. Also a new hobby...do you have anything at all you ever wanted to do but were always thwarted in efforts to do it? Something that even if it isn't defiant would feel defiant to you to do it, because it would make no sense to anyone other than you? I suggest pursuing that, for a while. It will let everything else relax, you might even forget to bite your nails for a bit. 

You are seeking help, but if your wife was not in the picture, if your marriage didn't even exist, in your present state of living...would you go the distance for yourself...? I think that's what your wife is getting at. You will never gain confidence if she goes with you, and if you fail at anything she is there to muddy the water as to why... she wants to give you the gift of confidence of sorting this out for yourself, I suggest you accept, for a while. Think of it as an adventure.


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## Uptown

delup said:


> I had considered my wife could be Bi-Polar ... But BPD seems a better fit....


Delup, I am not a psychologist but I did live with a BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of a bipolar foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a long series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found several clear differences between the two disorders.

One difference is seen in the frequency of mood changes. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days. The latter therefore is consistent with your description of your W's numerous temper tantrums.

A second difference is seen in duration. Whereas bipolar moods typically last a week or two, BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours). Again, these short-duration rages are consistent with with the tantrums you describe.

A third difference is seen in the speed with which the mood change develops. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build slowly over two weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action. Significantly, the behavior you describe is consistent with these event-triggered outbursts.

A fourth difference is that, whereas bipolar can be treated very successfully in at least 80% of victims by swallowing a pill, BPD cannot be managed by medication because it arises from childhood damage to the emotional core -- not from a change in body chemistry.

A fifth difference is that, whereas bipolar disorder can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. That difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly. This seems consistent with your earlier comment, in another thread, that your W periodically detests you.

Finally, a sixth difference is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust for an extended period -- even though they sometimes may claim otherwise. This lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when a person does not trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time -- and almost certainly will. 

Yet, despite these six clear differences between the two disorders, many people confuse the two. One source of this confusion seems to be the fact that a substantial portion of BPD sufferers (about 25%) also have the bipolar disorder.


> I am resolved to inquire more about my wife's diagnoses and medication, and gently push for a further evaluation.


Seeking a professional opinion is certainly prudent, Delup. For your own protection, however, I urge you to see a clinical psychologist -- ON YOUR OWN for a visit or two -- to obtain a candid opinion on what it is you are dealing with. If your W has strong BPD traits, she almost certainly is a high functioning BPDer (or you would not have married her). This means there is little chance that a therapist would tell her the name of the disorder, much less tell you. 

As I've explained in other threads, therapists generally are loath to tell HF-BPDer clients the name of their disorder -- primarily because the news could make her behavior worse, would like cause her to immediately terminate therapy, and would likely result in the insurance company refusing to cover the treatments. Hence, relying on HER therapist's advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on HER attorney's advice during the divorce. Like the attorney, her therapist is ethically bound to protect his sick client, regardless of whether you occasionally show up to ask questions.


----------



## Uptown

> I realize the issue is the level to which someone resorts to these symptoms.


Yes. Every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if they are emotionally healthy. These traits become a problem only when they so strongly distort the person's perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations that they undermine marriages and other close LTRs. Significantly, that can happen even when the strong traits fall well short of the diagnostic level. The relevant threshold for your purposes, then, is whether you are reasonably happy in the marriage.

The nine BPD traits therefore are NOT a disease -- like chickenpox -- that one "has" or "does not have." There is no identified disease. Instead, such traits are simply a group of behavioral symptoms -- like selfishness and irritability -- that vary in intensity among various individuals. Indeed, at low levels, these traits are desireable because they are essential for our survival. This is why they arise from the primitive ego defenses we all use 24/7 in early childhood -- and continue to use occasionally all through adulthood. 

Splitting (a form of dissociation), for example, is something you and I do many times a day -- every time we daydream or are suddenly startled. A good example of the black-white thinking occurs when you are in a crosswalk and suddenly look up to see a truck bearing down on you. In emergencies like that, when you are suddenly startled, our brains are hard-wired to be capable only of B-W thinking. We can only think "jump left" or "jump right."


----------



## MaybeItsMe?

Homemaker_Numero_Uno thanks for your post, I agree I do need to work on myself and I have gone back on medication to help this. I went out today to see some of my friends and we off fishing etc, over Christmas I went over to see family and already feel much much better. Its a shame you didn't read the full list though.

As for my wife trying to give me confidence, I think if my wife is BDP she isn't thinking about me in any way in anything she does, I expect that now though and it makes it easier for me. Yes she has childish outburst, tantrums, my way or the highway, cut her nose of to spite her face but I just let her do it, she cools down eventually. There is still no sex but that is fine with me these days as well.

I think once I read the books it gave me the ability to really step back, she can't hurt me anymore becuase I know what to expect and thats ok with me. She is currently in a bad mood with me and sleeping down stairs but thats fine she will talk when she wants to. Its not that I don't care its just that I dont react in the way I used to do.

Some times she does open up a bit, she said to me yesterday that she thinks she is the least patient person she knows. I know she will never do anything about it and in some ways I think she thinks this is actually ok, its as if she is proud to be like that. When I ask her why she is like that she just says she takes no **** off anyone. Now when I say impatiant I am talking about seconds here, if she is ready and has to wait literally 2 seconds she is in a bad mood. If I am on the phone and she wants somthing then she makes it clear I have to get off the phone etc, she has to come first in every way. She has recently fell out with more people in work and currently has no friends again. Its a shame to see her destroy her own life but its her life to mess up, there is nothing I can do and in all honesty I dont want to try and help her. She can dig her hole as deep as she wants it makes no difference to me and in reality she cares so little about the people around her it actually makes no difference to her. 

I recently found out that may years ago she was actually fired from her job due to her attitiude and unwillingness to adapt, or do what was asked of her. I also know that in highschool she had no real friends and people she did hang around with eventually got sick of her. Her first real boyfriend got fed up with her and finished with her becuase he couldn't handle her and she has been told in her current job that she needs to make some changes. I just wished should would go and talk to some one but that is simply never going to happen, she knows she has a problem but refuses to deal with it.

The only big issue at the moment is she wants a new house, now this is probably going to cause a major problem as I am not willing to fund it all but if I dont she will get really upset, although she wont see it as me funding it all and will some how have it in her head that she is funding it. I'll just have to think of a way around that issue. How she can try and buy a $400,000 house when she has $500 in savings and owes me probably over $4000 now, I will never know.

In many ways I am still looking forward to the day she walks out and doesn't come back and as with most BPD it will happen.


----------



## Uptown

MaybeItsMe? said:


> In many ways I am still looking forward to the day she walks out and doesn't come back and as with most BPD it will happen.


Maybe, yes, that is what typically happens after about 12 to 15 years with most high functioning BPDers. Each year, a BPDer will become increasingly resentful with your "failure" to make her happy -- an impossible task. Moreover, you are accelerating that distancing processing now that you've stopped walking on eggshells around her all the time. 

Because you are behaving like yourself, you are no longer validating her false self image of always being a perpetual "victim." BPDers become very intolerant of living with a spouse who refuses to validate that false image by assuming the role of "the perpetrator," i.e., refusing to accept blame for every misfortune that befalls her.


----------



## Caligyrl

Any updates? How are you doing these days?


----------



## SomeLady

Oops. This is an old thread. Never mind!


----------



## endlessgrief

I haven't read any other posts so I may be telling you something others have already covered. She sounds bi-polar to me. My father is bi-polar and they are the hardest people to live and work with. They are only in their own heads and view themselves as the victim no matter the case.

They say that people with bi-polar disorder actually hate themselves deep inside. (I have been to therapy about my father and read tons of books on this subject). You mention that you walk on eggshells. One of the best bi-polar books out there is entitled STOP WALKING ON EGGSHELLS. You cannot argue with someone that is in their own head. They know no other opinion other than their own. They are right and everyone else in the world is wrong.

My father used to go into tantrums over things me and my brother never did, but we got punished anyway. We would be crying and plotting his death (like most 8 and 6 year olds will do in a situation like this). Then, five minutes later, he calls us out of our rooms, our tears have not dried up yet. Our anger is still fresh. AND HE WANTS US TO PLAY UNO CARD GAMES WITH HIM like nothing happened. So we had to paste on fake smiles and play along. Because I cannot hide my emotions due to facial expressions, I heard "GET THAT LOOK OFF YOUR FACE" so many times. I wasn't allowed to be angry or sad. Dad wanted happy, and dammit we had to fake happiness. (Another reason I ended up in therapy). You never know who or what you are gonna get with a person like that. Taking the abuse personally is not a good thing because this is their problem, not yours. But somehow they vomit their poison onto you and suddenly it is your problem. These are called EMOTIONAL VAMPIRES. They suck the life right out of you.

You sound highly intelligent and you have been paying attention to your marriage enough to make a list. (I wish my husband paid attention like that!!!  

It sounds like you are in the eye of a hurricane and cannot get out because no matter where you turn, you are gonna get blasted with negativity. 

What do you think is best for you? Have you considered leaving? Most bi-polars will not seek therapy because like I said, everyone else are the crazies, not them. Do you want to spend your life walking on eggshells. I walked on eggshells my whole childhood and grew up with self esteem issues, lots of therapy, anti-anxiety meds, and bad anxiety attacks. 

I wish I could say something to you that is helpful. But you already know what the deal is. That is why it is healthy to come here and vent to others about your marriage. You gotta get that poison out of your system. 

She acts like she can't stand you right? Everything you do is wrong? See how she acts if you leave her. She will crumble. You will be the bad guy. But you already are the bad guy aren't you? 

Hang in there man, follow your gut and your heart and do what is best for you. Don't become a senior citizen looking back on their lives and wishing they had made changes when they were young. 

I would love to know your deepest thoughts, what do you think you are going to do? Have a deep conversation is out of the question. You won't be able to get through to her and it will just hurt you more. They say marriage is hard, but it doesn't have to be THIS hard. Hold your head up my friend. You are not alone.


----------



## SomeLady

endlessgrief said:


> I haven't read any other posts so I may be telling you something others have already covered. She sounds bi-polar to me. My father is bi-polar and they are the hardest people to live and work with. They are only in their own heads and view themselves as the victim no matter the case.
> 
> They say that people with bi-polar disorder actually hate themselves deep inside. (I have been to therapy about my father and read tons of books on this subject). You mention that you walk on eggshells. One of the best bi-polar books out there is entitled STOP WALKING ON EGGSHELLS. You cannot argue with someone that is in their own head. They know no other opinion other than their own. They are right and everyone else in the world is wrong.


Are you sure you mean Bi-Polar and not Borderline Personality Disorder?

Bi-polar just means the person has episodes of mania and episodes of being down. I've known people who are bi-polar and they don't seem to think of themselves as victims or whatever. At worst, they got a little strange when they were manic (because they felt really, really great and thought they were conquering the world or something.)


Borderline Personality Disorder, or other personality disorders (like narcissism, antisocial, etc) sound more like what you're talking about.


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

That sounds miserable. You both need to work on your attitude towards each other. It looks as if your both feeding off of one another's negative energy. I see a lot of resentments you both are holding against each other.

You can't go on living in misery like this and neither can she. MC is a good start or both of you can sit down and have a talk. Start everyday with a smile and a hello. Look for the positive things you both do and thank each other for it. Your focusing on the negative, start focusing on the positives. Both of you.

My husband and I only feed on the positive things we do for each other. We are not perfect and we let the mistakes go. Neither of us has expectations of one another, but we both put effort into our marriage. Its not going to be 50/50, my husband puts so much more effort then I do. I let him know how much I appreciate him. He does the same even though he puts fourth most the effort. We do not keep score of who does what.

If you guys can't figure this out and get along, it's not going to work. Your neg attitude is stopping her from having sex, it would me too. My husband is very loving. We communicate and compromise in a calm way. Yes, there are stressful times, especially now with trying to make ends meet. Find a way to rebuild your marriage. Stop with the neg attitude(both of you), even if she's grouchy. Walk away or tell her you love her. 

Only focus on the positives. It works and it works well in our marriage! My husband has taught me to only look for the positive. It's not easy, but it can be done. 

If you or your wife have any bipolar or other illness getting in the way, it's very important to get that under control. I know it will be difficult convincing, but it's a serious issue that needs to be delt with. My ex had untreated bipolar. He would go off on severe anger rages for days. He was abusive towards me, I left. I would never put up with abuse. He was also unfaithful to boot.


----------



## endlessgrief

SomeLady said:


> Are you sure you mean Bi-Polar and not Borderline Personality Disorder?
> 
> Bi-polar just means the person has episodes of mania and episodes of being down. I've known people who are bi-polar and they don't seem to think of themselves as victims or whatever. At worst, they got a little strange when they were manic (because they felt really, really great and thought they were conquering the world or something.)
> 
> 
> Borderline Personality Disorder, or other personality disorders (like narcissism, antisocial, etc) sound more like what you're talking about.


You are so right!!! Narcissism and Borderline are more apt in this situation.


----------



## MaybeItsMe?

I do try very hard with her but there is no real point as a BPD wont respond as you would expect.

She is no better or no worse. Some days she is fine and then a little thing can set her off. I just never forget that No good deed goes unpunished by a BPD



SomeLady said:


> Oops. This is an old thread. Never mind!



I am still here!


----------



## pidge70

> One of the best bi-polar books out there is entitled STOP WALKING ON EGGSHELLS.


This book actually deals with Borderline Personality Disorder.


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## diwali123

I thought my ex had BPD or bipolar disorder. Now I don't care what you call it. These people are miserable because they want to be. They need you to be there to blame for everything. I am living a completely different life now, and it's only once you get away and heal that you can see the damage this person did to you. 
I would caution against buying a new house if you're not sure about the marriage. It's just more assets to divide. 
Are you in therapy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123

Also I was never a violent person until I married my ex. He seemed to want to drive me to the point where I yelled back and threw things so he could say "see, this marriage sucks because of YOU." Its like he was a genius at figuring out how to make me miserable, mad, crazy, frustrated. He would also get stuck in a loop where he would deny having said things or his version if reality was borderline delusional. He got worse and worse as time went on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CrazyGuy

MaybeItsMe? said:


> I just never forget that No good deed goes unpunished


Holy crap! I remember thinking this for the past 13 years or so. I thought that I was the only one that thought this way. Another one I have is "she never fails to disappoint me." Looking at your list we are in the same boat.


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## MaybeItsMe?

Things have changed a bit for me, the guilt trips for the smallest thing (like putting water into a bowl because we pay for the water we use) have become worse. Another thing that has gotten worse is the chores around the house.

They start to build up, she even says "I will do your chores" but never does. The house gets worse and worse , I try to ask her to do them but she just gets angry (I love a clean and tidy house, you never know who may turn up at your door!) Eventually I give up and do it. She then gets angry with me because she said she would do them and "I never listen"

Dishes in the kitchen for 2 days is just too much for me, as is rubbish falling out the bin, dust all over the place etc. If a guest comes around unannounced it would be embarrassing plus its just unhealthy to have all that crap around.

I can't work this one out but maybe its a control thing?


----------



## Tigger

MaybeItsMe? said:


> Things have changed a bit for me, the guilt trips for the smallest thing (like putting water into a bowl because we pay for the water we use) have become worse. Another thing that has gotten worse is the chores around the house.
> 
> They start to build up, she even says "I will do your chores" but never does. The house gets worse and worse , I try to ask her to do them but she just gets angry (I love a clean and tidy house, you never know who may turn up at your door!) Eventually I give up and do it. She then gets angry with me because she said she would do them and "I never listen"
> 
> Dishes in the kitchen for 2 days is just too much for me, as is rubbish falling out the bin, dust all over the place etc. If a guest comes around unannounced it would be embarrassing plus its just unhealthy to have all that crap around.
> 
> I can't work this one out but maybe its a control thing?


so what are her goods points?


----------



## Caligyrl

It's hard to come up with "good points" when someone is continually on your behind all the time. Bi-polar or BPD spouses are the absolute worst to try and figure out. There is no right or wrong path to take because eventually they all are wrong.


----------



## WHATDIDISAY

MaybeItsMe? said:


> We are both in our late 20s and have been together for over11 years. It has never been easy but as soon as we where married about 2 years ago it went quickly down hill. She refuses to come with me to talk to some one about our relationship and I don't seem to be able to get through to her in any way. Its like a stone
> 
> At the moment I can't really come up with a big long essay so I have listed the issues below
> *
> Lets start with my bad side*
> 
> 
> I had a mental breakdown some years back and I have become very withdrawn. I don't like crowds or people any more.
> 
> I bite my nails
> 
> My time keeping can be pretty crap at times
> 
> I have been know to pick my nose (I know its disgusting!)
> 
> I can shout and smash things when I am angry,
> 
> My job is stressful and my manager has bull****ted his way into the role and so has no real skills in the field we work in. Due to this I have lot of pressure on my back that he dumps across and some times I have to do long hours
> 
> I have lost my self confidence
> 
> I sometimes wont let an argument just drop
> 
> In the past I have taken her for granted (many years ago)
> 
> I used to play computer games a lot but that stopped about 3 years ago
> 
> I don't have any friends anymore (see first bullet)
> 
> I make stupid mistakes such as buying an item I had already asked her to get me for my Birthday (this annoys me)
> 
> I don't sleep very well but also I find it hard to get up in the morning
> 
> I do a lot of Internet browsing / reading for my job while at home.
> 
> I some times snore when under lots of stress or when very very tired
> 
> This list can go on and on probably
> 
> 
> *Now onto my wife....*
> 
> 
> She is unhappy most days mainly with me and our relationship
> 
> She is always angry and easily provoked / frustrated, she can't do simple tasks such as help put a bed together without getting angry with it and walking off ( I walk around on egg shells!)
> 
> picky and overly critical of me (see above point)
> 
> 99 good things in the week are overshadowed by the 1 mistake I have made
> 
> makes her mind up and it can't be changed. She quotes me incorrectly, I try to tell her that’s not what I said, she doesn't argue about it but she will always come back to the quote and it goes in a huge circle again. It seems as if she is stuck in a loop.
> 
> She seems to see things as right or wrong with no ability to give leeway or explain away a mistake.
> 
> She can't see the difference between malicious intent and an accident / mistake and will punish both in the same way.
> 
> doesn't care if she hurts or upsets me, no change in her emotion even when I am is pieces. In fact no emotion other than anger and frustration.
> 
> She is very defensive, I can't criticise her in any way no matter how I sugar coat it
> 
> no effort (lost hope?)
> 
> says she feels awkward around me
> 
> no sex, no desire not even a kiss
> 
> Discussions turn into her being sarcastic and trying to say I am blaming her
> 
> She says “our relationship is ****” or “we don’t get on any more”
> 
> When we do have a good time she will later belittle it and say its not good enough or is crap that we only enjoy those activity’s
> 
> Says her friends have better marriages
> 
> says she wants to go on holiday like they do when I say “ok lets do it” then backs out saying she can't afford it. If I then ask why she blames our relationship for the fact that she can't afford it there is no answer other then walking off or getting angry
> 
> She has to have what ever it is she wants, she wanted a new car so we went to see it and I didn't like to look of it, it may have been in an accident and it had definitely had a hard life. When I brought up these possible problems she asked “should I not buy it then?” when I said If it was me I wouldn't she stormed off angry with me and was like that for days. When we did find a car for her a few days later she was happy again but then asked for $2000 from me to help her pay for it. (she doesn't like me talking about that though so its never brought up)
> 
> Seems to be unable to control her spending. I have dragged her out of her debt a few times but it just creeps up and up again.
> 
> Pushes other people away, she can't keep friends for more than 12 months (none of them turned up to our wedding) People have asked to be moved away from her in the office and managers have asked for her to not work under them any more
> 
> Doesn't seem to be able to step back and see the big picture, can't see it from any other point of view.
> 
> No real empathy for others
> 
> Tells me she doesn't want to hear about my problems any more, then a few weeks later says that I don't talk to her about my issues.
> 
> Tells me to make sure I tell her if she is making a mistake or upsetting me but hates it when I say anything (I don't any more)
> 
> She asked me to buy her a puppy (it was about $1000) she then found it hard to cope with it to the point where only me stepping in stopped her getting rid of it. Still 15 months on she struggles with the dog (its the most lovely little thing you have ever seen and very well behaved thanks to my mum and I training it for her!)
> 
> Doesn't act like a wife to me, more like my mother one minute and my child the next depending on if she is angry or wants something
> 
> Doesn't keep up with her side of the house work. I some times have no clean clothes and when I try to wash them she says I am only doing it to point out that she hasn't done them. I sadly some times have to go to work with dirty shirt and trousers on just to keep her happy (I dare not say anything to her about this) I also some times buy new cloths and hide them from her so I can wash them without her knowing
> 
> Very nasty drunk, I can't go out on a night out with her any more as she will just lay into me
> 
> Like I said at the very top of the list I had a mental breakdown some years back and I have become very withdrawn. She says I used to be outgoing, funny and sexy and now I’m not
> 
> When I ask her if she can see why I find the above comment hurtful she says she can't, when I ask if she can even see that it could be hurtful and ask for a yes or no answer she can't answer and walks off
> 
> *A bit more info...*
> 
> 
> I do some times get very angry with her and even though I try my best I do sometimes shout. I know I shouldn't and I really do try and keep a lid on it.
> 
> I do try and buy her little gifts a few times a month just to spark up her day
> 
> I call her every day to make sure she is ok in work and tell her I love her.
> 
> I look after the dog, take it to the vets, out for walks, feed it etc
> 
> I do my fair share of the house work (sometimes more than my fair share)
> 
> I financially support us even though she has a full time job (she hates me saying anything about this, this is a big no no)
> 
> I treat her nieces as if they where my own children.
> 
> 
> 
> I do all the little things like pick her and her friends up from nights out and take them home or go to the shops for her when she needs something, give her back rubs, foot rubs, look after her when she is ill and I would never ever cheat on her. To be honest there isn't anything I wouldn't do for her but I feel taken for granted and whatever I do isn't good enough anyway. I know this is only my side of the story and there’s a chance that maybe I am totally insane and this is a very warped view of what is really going on. I really do hope it is me going mad because I know that I can fix that! Oh and also when it is going good (it lasts for about 1 week normally) its fantastic and she is a really lovely person. I enjoy every last second with her nice side while it lasts and I have to keep reminding myself it not going to last long but be happy for the next few days. Nothing makes me more happy then her opening the door with a big smile on her face I just give her a big hug and smile myself, its like I have my life back. Its very much like living with Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.
> 
> I will be honest I have posted this because I think am starting to struggle to cope, my ability to keep my mind straight has reduced, I some times can't remember my drive to work, its as if I have the entire drive missing from my memory, I can't remember what day it is, some one asked my age the other day and I couldn't remember that either (that was very odd!) and suicide has cropped up in my mind a few times when I am at my lowest. I am a fully grown man and I have a tear rolling down my cheek as I type this, In fact for some reason I cry a lot these days for no real reason, I feel embarrassed even typing that.
> 
> I think I am a good person, I hope I am anyway and I know I am not perfect and some of her anger and frustration is valid, I annoy myself when I a late for things but I really don't think I deserve all of the negativity.
> 
> Thanks for reading my list!


----------



## MaybeItsMe?

Caligyrl said:


> It's hard to come up with "good points" when someone is continually on your behind all the time. Bi-polar or BPD spouses are the absolute worst to try and figure out. There is no right or wrong path to take because eventually they all are wrong.


Hi,

This is correct. I have accepted this and don't try to fight against it. When my wife is on my back I find that if I give her a big hug and tell her its going to be OK she seems to come round. 

I think its about herself feeling low. She acts like a child and you have to treat her like that, she is a child who needs reassurance, that's how I now look at it. It seems to be working.

Don't get me wrong its still a very hard life to live and suicide does pop into my head from time to time but I think I can cope for now.


----------



## Uptown

MaybeItsMe? said:


> Its still a very hard life to live and suicide does pop into my head from time to time but I think I can cope for now.


Maybe, thanks for giving us an update. A year ago, when you started this thread, you were seriously considering leaving her -- and were even hoping she would walk out on you. Why, then, do you continue to put yourself through this pain and misery by staying with her? 

Given that you are only in your late 20's, why don't you find a true husband/wife relationship to replace the parent/child relationship you have? I strongly encourage you to discuss your codependency issues with a psychologist and with the other abused spouses at BPDfamily.com. If you are interested in reading about it, _Codependent No More _is a good book. I believe you are an excessive caregiver like me.


----------



## DayDream

MaybeItsMe? said:


> We are both in our late 20s and have been together for over11 years. It has never been easy but as soon as we where married about 2 years ago it went quickly down hill. She refuses to come with me to talk to some one about our relationship and I don't seem to be able to get through to her in any way. Its like a stone
> 
> At the moment I can't really come up with a big long essay so I have listed the issues below
> *
> Lets start with my bad side*
> 
> 
> I had a mental breakdown some years back and I have become very withdrawn. I don't like crowds or people any more.
> 
> I bite my nails
> 
> My time keeping can be pretty crap at times
> 
> I have been know to pick my nose (I know its disgusting!)
> 
> I can shout and smash things when I am angry,
> 
> My job is stressful and my manager has bull****ted his way into the role and so has no real skills in the field we work in. Due to this I have lot of pressure on my back that he dumps across and some times I have to do long hours
> 
> I have lost my self confidence
> 
> I sometimes wont let an argument just drop
> 
> In the past I have taken her for granted (many years ago)
> 
> I used to play computer games a lot but that stopped about 3 years ago
> 
> I don't have any friends anymore (see first bullet)
> 
> I make stupid mistakes such as buying an item I had already asked her to get me for my Birthday (this annoys me)
> 
> I don't sleep very well but also I find it hard to get up in the morning
> 
> I do a lot of Internet browsing / reading for my job while at home.
> 
> I some times snore when under lots of stress or when very very tired
> 
> This list can go on and on probably
> 
> 
> *Now onto my wife....*
> 
> 
> She is unhappy most days mainly with me and our relationship
> 
> She is always angry and easily provoked / frustrated, she can't do simple tasks such as help put a bed together without getting angry with it and walking off ( I walk around on egg shells!)
> 
> picky and overly critical of me (see above point)
> 
> 99 good things in the week are overshadowed by the 1 mistake I have made
> 
> makes her mind up and it can't be changed. She quotes me incorrectly, I try to tell her that’s not what I said, she doesn't argue about it but she will always come back to the quote and it goes in a huge circle again. It seems as if she is stuck in a loop.
> 
> She seems to see things as right or wrong with no ability to give leeway or explain away a mistake.
> 
> She can't see the difference between malicious intent and an accident / mistake and will punish both in the same way.
> 
> doesn't care if she hurts or upsets me, no change in her emotion even when I am is pieces. In fact no emotion other than anger and frustration.
> 
> She is very defensive, I can't criticise her in any way no matter how I sugar coat it
> 
> no effort (lost hope?)
> 
> says she feels awkward around me
> 
> no sex, no desire not even a kiss
> 
> Discussions turn into her being sarcastic and trying to say I am blaming her
> 
> She says “our relationship is ****” or “we don’t get on any more”
> 
> When we do have a good time she will later belittle it and say its not good enough or is crap that we only enjoy those activity’s
> 
> Says her friends have better marriages
> 
> says she wants to go on holiday like they do when I say “ok lets do it” then backs out saying she can't afford it. If I then ask why she blames our relationship for the fact that she can't afford it there is no answer other then walking off or getting angry
> 
> She has to have what ever it is she wants, she wanted a new car so we went to see it and I didn't like to look of it, it may have been in an accident and it had definitely had a hard life. When I brought up these possible problems she asked “should I not buy it then?” when I said If it was me I wouldn't she stormed off angry with me and was like that for days. When we did find a car for her a few days later she was happy again but then asked for $2000 from me to help her pay for it. (she doesn't like me talking about that though so its never brought up)
> 
> Seems to be unable to control her spending. I have dragged her out of her debt a few times but it just creeps up and up again.
> 
> Pushes other people away, she can't keep friends for more than 12 months (none of them turned up to our wedding) People have asked to be moved away from her in the office and managers have asked for her to not work under them any more
> 
> Doesn't seem to be able to step back and see the big picture, can't see it from any other point of view.
> 
> No real empathy for others
> 
> Tells me she doesn't want to hear about my problems any more, then a few weeks later says that I don't talk to her about my issues.
> 
> Tells me to make sure I tell her if she is making a mistake or upsetting me but hates it when I say anything (I don't any more)
> 
> She asked me to buy her a puppy (it was about $1000) she then found it hard to cope with it to the point where only me stepping in stopped her getting rid of it. Still 15 months on she struggles with the dog (its the most lovely little thing you have ever seen and very well behaved thanks to my mum and I training it for her!)
> 
> Doesn't act like a wife to me, more like my mother one minute and my child the next depending on if she is angry or wants something
> 
> Doesn't keep up with her side of the house work. I some times have no clean clothes and when I try to wash them she says I am only doing it to point out that she hasn't done them. I sadly some times have to go to work with dirty shirt and trousers on just to keep her happy (I dare not say anything to her about this) I also some times buy new cloths and hide them from her so I can wash them without her knowing
> 
> Very nasty drunk, I can't go out on a night out with her any more as she will just lay into me
> 
> Like I said at the very top of the list I had a mental breakdown some years back and I have become very withdrawn. She says I used to be outgoing, funny and sexy and now I’m not
> 
> When I ask her if she can see why I find the above comment hurtful she says she can't, when I ask if she can even see that it could be hurtful and ask for a yes or no answer she can't answer and walks off
> 
> *A bit more info...*
> 
> 
> I do some times get very angry with her and even though I try my best I do sometimes shout. I know I shouldn't and I really do try and keep a lid on it.
> 
> I do try and buy her little gifts a few times a month just to spark up her day
> 
> I call her every day to make sure she is ok in work and tell her I love her.
> 
> I look after the dog, take it to the vets, out for walks, feed it etc
> 
> I do my fair share of the house work (sometimes more than my fair share)
> 
> I financially support us even though she has a full time job (she hates me saying anything about this, this is a big no no)
> 
> I treat her nieces as if they where my own children.
> 
> 
> 
> I do all the little things like pick her and her friends up from nights out and take them home or go to the shops for her when she needs something, give her back rubs, foot rubs, look after her when she is ill and I would never ever cheat on her. To be honest there isn't anything I wouldn't do for her but I feel taken for granted and whatever I do isn't good enough anyway. I know this is only my side of the story and there’s a chance that maybe I am totally insane and this is a very warped view of what is really going on. I really do hope it is me going mad because I know that I can fix that! Oh and also when it is going good (it lasts for about 1 week normally) its fantastic and she is a really lovely person. I enjoy every last second with her nice side while it lasts and I have to keep reminding myself it not going to last long but be happy for the next few days. Nothing makes me more happy then her opening the door with a big smile on her face I just give her a big hug and smile myself, its like I have my life back. Its very much like living with Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.
> 
> I will be honest I have posted this because I think am starting to struggle to cope, my ability to keep my mind straight has reduced, I some times can't remember my drive to work, its as if I have the entire drive missing from my memory, I can't remember what day it is, some one asked my age the other day and I couldn't remember that either (that was very odd!) and suicide has cropped up in my mind a few times when I am at my lowest. I am a fully grown man and I have a tear rolling down my cheek as I type this, In fact for some reason I cry a lot these days for no real reason, I feel embarrassed even typing that.
> 
> I think I am a good person, I hope I am anyway and I know I am not perfect and some of her anger and frustration is valid, I annoy myself when I a late for things but I really don't think I deserve all of the negativity.
> 
> Thanks for reading my list!


You both sound kind of immature to me. You both need to do a bit of growing up. I think counceling will help if you can convince her to go. You need help in realizing the proper reactions to things in your lives and when to know you've gone overboard. 

And for God's sake...stop picking your nose! (well...in front of people anyway. At least use a tissue!)


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## MaybeItsMe?

Uptown said:


> Maybe, thanks for giving us an update. A year ago, when you started this thread, you were seriously considering leaving her -- and were even hoping she would walk out on you. Why, then, do you continue to put yourself through this pain and misery by staying with her?
> 
> Given that you are only in your late 20's, why don't you find a true husband/wife relationship to replace the parent/child relationship you have? I strongly encourage you to discuss your codependency issues with a psychologist and with the other abused spouses at BPDfamily.com. If you are interested in reading about it, _Codependent No More _is a good book. I believe you are an excessive caregiver like me.


I agree, I feel like I have to provide and hate to fail. I think the issues are as much about my problems with fear of failure, excessive care giving as they are about my wife's issues.

I will take a look at the book.

Thanks



DayDream said:


> You both sound kind of immature to me. You both need to do a bit of growing up. I think counceling will help if you can convince her to go. You need help in realizing the proper reactions to things in your lives and when to know you've gone overboard.
> 
> And for God's sake...stop picking your nose! (well...in front of people anyway. At least use a tissue!)



I have tried to get her to go but she won't. I think this has already been covered. 

I don't really agree with you "growing up" comment to be honest I think I carry enough burden and deal with it in a respectable manor without any need to do more "growing up".


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## Uptown

Maybe, how are you doing? Did you ever have a chance to read the _Codependent No More_ book? I checked your profile and noticed that you were reading on the TAM forum very recently. So I'm hoping for an update.


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## MSP

MaybeItsMe? said:


> I had a mental breakdown some years back and I have become very withdrawn. I don't like crowds or people anymore
> 
> I can shout and smash things when I am angry,
> 
> I have lot of pressure on my back
> 
> I have lost my self confidence
> 
> I sometimes wont let an argument just drop
> 
> I don't sleep very well but also I find it hard to get up in the morning
> 
> I cry a lot these days for no real reason, I feel embarrassed even typing that.


FWIW, all of those things can be correlated with low serotonin. I prefer natural ways of bringing it back up, like exercise, good diet, being social.


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## LifeIsBeautiful42

Can anyone explain the reason for the "looping" converstations? Any techniques to cope with it? 

Talking about events, people, feelings that happened years ago every now and them, and these are mostly negative experiences (it left a deep impression and wasn't exactly happy ones). Am I suppose to validate it over and over again? I've asked my W to stop (in fact just last night) and the outcome, you can imagine. I have to rationalize for most part of my work, it drives me to the edge more so lately, and I'm struggling to deal with it. Thanks.


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## Uptown

LifeIsBeautiful42 said:


> Can anyone explain the reason for the "looping" converstations? Any techniques to cope with it?


LIB, are you referring to the way a BPDer will keep looping back to the same old false arguments over and over again -- nevermind that you two have discussed them to death and even resolved some of them? If so, this behavior occurs because a BPDer's feelings are so intense and uncontrolled that they establish her "reality" at any point in time. This means she will interpret reality in a distorted way that "validates" the feelings she is feeling at THIS VERY MOMENT. 

This is why it is impossible to build up a store of good will on which you can later draw during the hard times. Whatever good will you create is quickly washed aside, like a sandcastle beside the sea, by the next tide of emotions flooding her mind. 

For the same reason, it is nearly impossible to ever resolve any contentious issues with a BPDer. In the rare instances when you actually do achieve a resolution, it will be washed aside -- together with your good will -- by whatever feelings are flooding her mind. 

The result is that you will find a BPDer often looping back to the same old allegations over and over again. Indeed, this will even happen in the same conversation, where you will see her abandon one argument and support her distorted view with an entirely different argument. When you find fault with that new argument, she will substitute a third without even blinking. And, if you prove that it makes no sense as well, she will loop back to the very first argument -- as though you had never said anything about it at all.

Significantly, BPDers are not the only folks who do this irrational arguing. On the contrary, we all do it whenever we experience very intense feelings. We've done it so many hundreds of times that, by the time we are in high school, most of us know that our judgment goes out the window whenever we are very angry or very infatuated. That's why we know to keep our mouths shut until we have time to cool down.


> Am I suppose to validate it over and over again?


That is what _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ seems to suggest. My experience is that, while that may work for people having mild to moderate BPD traits, it doesn't make a dent in the bad behavior of those having strong BPD traits. Because they are unable to trust you, they simply will not believe the many things you say to validate them. Moreover, even if they did, they have so much anger and shame inside that their subconscious minds will keep projecting it onto you -- over and over again -- to protect their fragile egos from seeing too much of reality. This, at least, is my experience.


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## LifeIsBeautiful42

Hi Uptown,
You were spot on, thanks for explaining. Previously I had tried to rationalize, and it was probably more for me to regain my sanity then to help her regain hers, which wasn't possible anyway. Recently, after an event I tried staying calm (not losing it) and letting it pass. Nothing further came from it. Seems for my W, any reaction to her acting out makes it worse, much worse. I had tried setting boundaries, it does not work because it simply does not register. But by not reacting to it and not telling her that that I disliked her behavior, am I validating her actions? I'm hoping that she realizes her behavior does not affect me (to the point that I need to show displeasure or anger). Like if a child throws tantrums and people around her pay no attention and carry on normally, the child eventually stops since it is pointless?


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## MaybeItsMe?

My wife does this a lot, goes round and around and then gets angry with me that the conversation is looping. She also sticks to the same thought process no matter what I say.


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## Uptown

LifeIsBeautiful42 said:


> I had tried setting boundaries, it does not work because it simply does not register. But by not reacting to it and not telling her that that I disliked her behavior, am I validating her actions? I'm hoping that she realizes her behavior does not affect me (to the point that I need to show displeasure or anger). Like if a child throws tantrums and people around her pay no attention and carry on normally, the child eventually stops since it is pointless?


LIB, I agree with you that, by not reacting emotionally to her attempts to start a fight, you are reducing her incentive to create drama. If she has only mild to moderate BPD traits, that approach -- together with your frequent validations of her feelings -- may make your M workable.

In that case, however, I would not agree that "setting boundaries does not work." The boundary you are setting is your refusal to participate in childish arguments that create pointless drama. You are enforcing violations of that boundary by allowing her to suffer the logical consequences of her actions -- i.e., you are ignoring her and, if necessary, leaving the room when she escalates the attack. Hence, if you don't want to be an "enabler," your only option is to create personal boundaries and strictly enforce them when they are violated.


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## argyle

Setting boundaries works. With 3 caveats.
(a) BPDs oscillate a lot. And bad behavior is capped. So, good boundaries do not mean you should expect an elimination of visits to crazytown.
(b) Enforcing boundaries results in feelings of abandonment, so the immediate reaction (think 3-6 months) will be one of increased dysfunction.
(c) Escalation is required. So, if you won't engage in looping conversations. That means the sequence is something like...

1) Conversation looping->done
2) Not stopping->leaving the room
3) Following->leaving the house, and staying out for about a day
4) Blocking you->calling the police, and leaving her in jail for a while

That said, not feeding into crazytalk does help.

Regarding hopelessness, it depends on the BPD. BPD is surprisingly treatable in many instances. I'd argue that my wife has made a transition from BPD to seriously neurotic.

Personally, I found that the 'best' response to projections involved calmly cutting my wife off and explaining that her behavior was pure projection. And then explaining exactly which bit of shame she was projecting and that feeling shame was normal but projecting it was unhealthy. And then telling her that I wouldn't discuss anything further while leaving her to cry/melt down on the floor. And then coming back a day later. The problem is that validating crazy doesn't help.

And, anyways, there's a certain amount of venting my wife needs to do under stress - and given a choice between a helpless crying fit and an abusive rage, I prefer the former.

--Argyle


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## EleGirl

MaybeItsMe? said:


> Yes, I know my list is smaller than hers and I am 100% sure she has a huge list about me
> 
> Manning up doesn't work. I have tried what is called the 180 here and she finds that annoying. She like the nice things I do and if i don't do them well thats just more ammunition. I feel like a jester to be honest.


The 180 is NOT manning up. The 180 that is given out here is for a person who use when they are an emotional wreck because their spouse is having an affair and will not end the affair.


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## Uptown

MaybeItsMe? said:


> My wife does this a lot, goes round and around and then gets angry with me that the conversation is looping.


Maybe, did you find the validation techniques mentioned in _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ to be helpful? I ask because, IME, such techniques are helpful when the partner's BPD traits are at a moderate level but not when they are at a strong level.


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## argyle

...my experience is that, on those occasions where my wife was expressing an emotion, validation was helpful. On those occasions where my wife was avoiding feeling an emotion by projecting bad behaviors onto me and then responding abusively to the projections...less so. Or just when she was throwing a tantrum to relieve stress.

--Argyle


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## argyle

...my experience is that, on those occasions where my wife was expressing an emotion, validation was helpful. On those occasions where my wife was avoiding feeling an emotion by projecting bad behaviors onto me and then responding abusively to the projections...less so. Or just when she was throwing a tantrum to relieve stress.

--Argyle


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## MaybeItsMe?

I think my wife is getting worse, she has painted a lot of friends black (there is no hope for the now) and has pissed of her boss and her team leader at work and now has a disciplinary meeting. I used to try and calm her down and keep her away from these work outbursts, warn her about being nasty to the people around her but I don't do it any more, I let her get on with it. Sadly I also have no sympathy for her and actually understand what her workplace must be going through.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

MaybeItsMe? said:


> I think my wife is getting worse....


Like you, Maybe, I didn't find the validation techniques mentioned in _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ to be helpful. Such techniques likely are helpful when the partner's BPD traits are at a moderate level but not when they are at a strong level, as appears to be the case with your W. I'm sorry to hear that her behavior is not improving.


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## Uptown

Maybe, are you still around? If so, please give us a status update. Am wondering how you're getting along with your W and whether her boss has fired her by now.


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## MaybeItsMe?

Uptown said:


> Maybe, are you still around? If so, please give us a status update. Am wondering how you're getting along with your W and whether her boss has fired her by now.


Sorry for the lack of updates!

Some things have changed, she moved to a new office with a new boss and is moving again soon.

She is getting worse and for the most part I cope but do have my off days. I think she takes me more and more for granted these days than ever before and is slowly becoming more and more unreasonable and paranoid. The sulking when she doesn't get her own way is a weekly occurrence now and she hardly spends any time with me (mainly due to the sulking)

She now 100% refuses to resolve any conflict, she will sulk and sulk but not talk or bring anything of any value to try and fix even the smallest disagreement but it doesn't surprise me.

When we do spend time together she reads her books and if I try and make idle chit chat or talk to her she says I'm chatting **** and she is trying to concentrate. If I call her in the day and she bothers to actually answer I get one word answers and awkward silences.

If she wants sex and doesn't get it she withholds it for weeks If I want sex she withholds it and the last time we had sex she didn't orgasim and had a massive strop, I did offer to give her her orgasim in other ways but she refused and now uses it from time to time to belittle me. 

All good apart from that


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## Uptown

Maybe, thanks so much for returning to update your original thread, which you started back in October 2011. By sharing your experiences here, you've helped numerous other members and lurkers. Indeed, your story in this thread has already attracted about 45,000 views. There seem to be two reasons for this popularity. One is that, in your very first post above, you come out of the gate with a detailed, concise, and articulate account of problems occurring in your marriage.

The other reason, in my view, is that you describe a problem affecting a substantial share of other marriages and LTRs. The lifetime incidence of BPD was found to be 6% in a recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults (funded by the National Institutes of Health and published in 2008). If BPDers only formed LTRs with other BPDers, this finding would imply 6% of all LTRs include a BPDer. 

Yet, because BPDers are emotionally unstable, they strongly desire to be paired with a partner having a stable personality -- so that partner can help to center and ground the BPDer and provide a sense of direction. That is, BPDers nearly always enter long-term relationships with nonBPDers. Hence, although BPDers account for only 6% of the population, they likely account for (i.e., are a member of) nearly 12% of the long-term relationships. Moreover, the figure likely is larger than that because BPDers typically have more failed marriages and other failed LTRs, leaving a long trail of abused ex-partners.


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## AVR1962

Why are you still together? You both sound pretty miserable together.


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## Angelou

Take back control of your life Sir.


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## Jackdaniels

Unbelievable. Many of the traits fit my wife perfectly! No joke!! Explains a lot.


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## kingsman

MaybeItsMe? said:


> If she wants sex and doesn't get it she withholds it for weeks If I want sex she withholds it and the last time we had sex she didn't orgasim and had a massive strop


I know this is an old thread but you've updated it so maybe if you come back to read you can tell me why you refuse her sex don't you think that makes things more difficult and builds her resentment?

Also what's a massive strop?


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## MattMatt

kingsman said:


> I know this is an old thread but you've updated it so maybe if you come back to read you can tell me why you refuse her sex don't you think that makes things more difficult and builds her resentment?
> 
> Also what's a massive strop?


It's a very angry outburst.


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## MidwestDave

Jackdaniels said:


> Unbelievable. Many of the traits fit my wife perfectly! No joke!! Explains a lot.


Old familiar story to me, I remember reading this thread back in 2011. I've been married to a BPDer for 10 years now (second marriage). About 2 years ago she discovered Trazadone (well actually I suggested she try it, because it was either get her help or get divorced, my life was a living hell). In her case it changed her enormously. She is much less angry and crazy acting with the childish manipulative "I can't ever be wrong or my life falls apart" behaviors. I am convinced that Borderline / depression / bipolar are all mixed to some extent in many people so finding the right treatment can be hard. And in some cases there may be no easy chemical solution.

I knew that deep down this was NOT the person I fell in love with. I stuck with her although it has taken a great toll on my mental / physical health. Unfortunately all the problems have not gone away with the advent of the Trazadone. She is also ADHD on top of the Bordeline/depression issues, so she wants to use Adderall on occasion for tasks likes driving, traveling, etc. She is really, truly ADHD by the way has significant problems with concentration and comprehension. Unfortunately I have learned without a shadow of a doubt that Adderall also makes my wife into a raving angry lunatic. Starts arguments over the slightest thing, pushes buttons, blaming, twists things around to damage my self esteem which I guess gives her some sort of charge when she is in this state. 

When she is not doing the Adderall and she is on the Trazadone she is the amazing person I married. But to confront her about any of this is not possible; she would never, ever accept that either the Trazadone changed her for the better, or that the Adderall makes her into a crazed angry spiteful spawn of satan. That Borderline trait is still there which prevents her from admitting these things, but I don't CARE if she can't admit this or not. I just need her to keep taking Trazadone (and stay far, far away on the days when she is using the Adderall).


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## Uptown

MidwestDave said:


> I am convinced that Borderline / depression / bipolar are all mixed to some extent in many people....


Midwest, a recent large-scale study supports your view. It found that the vast majority of folks exhibiting one personality disorder (PD) also exhibit one or two others as well. On top of that, those folks also exhibit at least one or two co-occurring "clinical disorders" such as PTSD, ADHD, bipolar, depression, GAD, MDD, or panic disorder. With respect to full-blown BPDers, for example, it found:


74% exhibit at least one other PD;
40% have a co-occurring lifetime incidence of bipolar (I or II); and
32% have a co-occurring lifetime incidence of MDD (Major Depressive Disorder). See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.


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