# Woman's Insight needed



## Ian (Jun 14, 2017)

First of all I'm sorry for posting to the women's section, but I'm tired of reading posts suggesting you put recorders in your wife's car and read her text messages to find out the truth. Also I want to apologize for the length of the this post..

My situation isn't pretty, my wife and I suffered a miscarriage about 2 and half months ago. She took it pretty bad for a couple of weeks but soon we decided to try again and that the pregnancy just wasn't right. We tried to have another baby with no luck and over the last 6 weeks shes been a roller coaster of emotion. She will be super excited one minute then pissed off the next. She's missed my son's soccer games and a practice because she was sleeping all day. This is clearly depression. She knows its depression and talked to her phycologist... but the dr is more of a friend as in she prescribes aderall to everyone.. so I don't know how much help her Dr actually is. She told me about a month ago she thinks about ending her life 3 times week and cries every night. She says she puts on a smile for me because she knows its depression causing these feelings and doesn't want to hurt our relationship. 
Last Sunday (8 days ago) she texted me and said "I'm sorry ive been in a funk for the last three days, Ive just been out of it." I replied no worries, I hadn't really noticed. Then the next day on Monday, she says we've been distant and she needs her space, maybe a separation will do us good. She tells me this while we are on our way to home depot looking at hardwood flooring... I totally freak out, we've been together for 6 years, married for 4 and have a beautiful 3 year old boy. I started getting mad, then sad. I asked if she met someone and her response was "I would never disrespect you like that, NO". She said that she just doesn't feel the same way about me, she doesn't feel like she used to and that we have no spark anymore. I still love her, I am in love with her, I deal with the crazy and pick up as much of the responsibility as possible to make her life less stressful. The following Tuesday she went to work at 1030 am and stayed at her parents house that night. While she was at work she texted me and said that the she has lost control of her emotions and cant find happiness, she really wants us to make it and just needs me to be patient. I followed with a "baby I'm here for you we can make it" kind of thing. then she sends me a link about the benefits of trial separation... That didn't go well for me, it made me think this is her trying to get out fast but trying to save face with the family. We had a good Thursday night, then we had our first counselor appointment on Friday. That went ok, she said it wasn't anything to do with me and wanted to save the marriage. Saturday she goes to work and does text me at all (we normally talk all throughout the day, just normal conversation stuff). When I would text her I got one word responses. She said she was going to pick up a first cut shift that night meaning she'd get off around 8. Our son was with my sister in law as we both work on Saturdays. Since my wife clearly didn't want to talk to me I texted my sister in law to check on the babe. My wife texted and said she wasn't getting a break and wouldn't be off before I was. I get off work at 1030pm. I freaked out a little. I said you are telling me you'll be at work for 12 hours and cant get a break to tell me whats going on. we fought alittle via text, I picked up the babe, and she got home at 1230. I wanted to talk about what happened and why she wouldn't talk to me. She just stormed off and went to sleep in our sons room. So spitefully I went out with a friend of mine in an I'll show you manner... bad idea. She might have cared I don't know. I spent sunday at work listening to some save your marriage podcasts and learned some very insightful info, basically everything I had been doing was wrong. I also didn't text her, call her or talk to her in an attempt to give her some room. So with some excitement in my new found insight, I write a letter for her. no judgement no blame just me taking responsibility for everything, and a promise to fix the marriage no matter what. 
She refuses to talk to me, like I have to basically corner her for her to tell me how shes feeling. She hasn't said I love you via text since Thursday, so almost a week. I swear shes cheating on me or at the very least is seeing someone. Its like as soon as she goes to work the SHTF. She doesn't wear her wedding ring anymore.. and I mean refuses to wear it. This morning as a chilled reminder I said "hey babe, I moved your wedding ring to the jewelry stand on your dresser". she walked out to leave.. no ring. I said babe, are you not wearing your ring anymore? she said sometimes I just don't feel like wearing it, and copped an attitude.
Tonight shes going out with people from work. I have no idea what to expect or how to react. I don't know if I should ask questions. I assuming she wont be home until 3 or 4. I'm trying hard to believe that she wont cheat on me but I'm really struggling. I want to believe its all from the depression but a part of me says shes using that as an excuse to act like this. She wont let me touch her, not just sex btw. I wanted to hold her hand while we went to sleep and she said no. I'm praying someone here has been through this and can share with me a positive ending. I don't want to meet other people, I don't want to date, I have no desire to have sex with anyone else except my wife. We have so much together and the thought of something as uncontrollable as depression ruining it is devastating. The thought of her being so selfish as to throw it all away for some crush at work.. is just as devastating. Thank you all for reading


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Ian said:


> *Then the next day on Monday, she says we've been distant and she needs her space, maybe a separation will do us good.* She tells me this while we are on our way to home depot looking at hardwood flooring... I totally freak out, we've been together for 6 years, married for 4 and have a beautiful 3 year old boy. I started getting mad, then sad. I asked if she met someone and her response was "I would never disrespect you like that, NO". * She said that she just doesn't feel the same way about me, * she doesn't feel like she used to and that we have no spark anymore. I still love her, I am in love with her, I deal with the crazy and pick up as much of the responsibility as possible to make her life less stressful. The following Tuesday she went to work at 1030 am and stayed at her parents house that night. While she was at work she texted me and said that the she has lost control of her emotions and cant find happiness, she really wants us to make it and just needs me to be patient. I followed with a "baby I'm here for you we can make it" kind of thing. then she sends me a link about the benefits of trial separation... That didn't go well for me, it made me think this is her trying to get out fast but trying to save face with the family. We had a good Thursday night, then we had our first counselor appointment on Friday. That went ok, she said it wasn't anything to do with me and wanted to save the marriage. Saturday she goes to work and does text me at all (we normally talk all throughout the day, just normal conversation stuff). When I would text her I got one word responses. She said she was going to pick up a first cut shift that night meaning she'd get off around 8. Our son was with my sister in law as we both work on Saturdays. Since my wife clearly didn't want to talk to me I texted my sister in law to check on the babe. My wife texted and said she wasn't getting a break and wouldn't be off before I was. I get off work at 1030pm. I freaked out a little. I said you are telling me you'll be at work for 12 hours and cant get a break to tell me whats going on. we fought alittle via text, I picked up the babe, and she got home at 1230. I wanted to talk about what happened and why she wouldn't talk to me. She just stormed off and went to sleep in our sons room. So spitefully I went out with a friend of mine in an I'll show you manner... bad idea. She might have cared I don't know. I spent sunday at work listening to some save your marriage podcasts and learned some very insightful info, basically everything I had been doing was wrong. I also didn't text her, call her or talk to her in an attempt to gi
> She refuses to talk to me, like I have to basically corner her for her to tell me how shes feeling. She hasn't said I love you via text since Thursday, so almost a week. I swear shes cheating on me or at the very least is seeing someone. Its like as soon as she goes to work the SHTF. She doesn't wear her wedding ring anymore.. and I mean refuses to wear it. This morning as a chilled reminder I said "hey babe, I moved your wedding ring to the jewelry stand on your dresser". she walked out to leave.. no ring. I said babe, are you not wearing your ring anymore? she said sometimes I just don't feel like wearing it, and copped an attitude.
> *Tonight shes going out with people from work.* I have no idea what to expect or how to react. I don't know if I should ask questions. I assuming she wont be home until 3 or 4. I'm trying hard to believe that she wont cheat on me but I'm really struggling. I want to believe its all from the depression but a part of me says shes using that as an excuse to act like this.* She wont let me touch her, not just sex btw. I wanted to hold her hand while we went to sleep and she said no. *I'm praying someone here has been through this and can share with me a positive ending. I don't want to meet other people, I don't want to date, I have no desire to have sex with anyone else except my wife. We have so much together and the thought of something as uncontrollable as depression ruining it is devastating. The thought of her being so selfish as to throw it all away for some crush at work.. is just as devastating. Thank you all for reading


Sorry to disappoint you, but you're going to have to investigate, using the VAR in the car, and surveillance on her phone to monitor her texts. 

The above are all red flags, OP. She's behaving distant, she wants a separation, and you've gotten the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech, which is classic cheater script. You can't ask her or confront her for answers since cheaters do not tell the truth. 

I'd start with these co-workers she's going out with. Are men going too? Can you show up unannounced? Can you have a friend go and observe? You need to find out what is going on in your marriage and the only way to do that is to investigate.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Take a deep breath and relax. 

This is clearly a confusing and painful time for both of you! It sounds like the miscarriage has really affected her deeply. Going on what you wrote - it's highly possible that the way you responded to her pain and her emotions left her feeling like you did not understand and were not supportive in the way she needed you to be. And that may have compounded her pain to the point that she can't bare it. So she is seeking an escape from it - from you because you caused it - in her mind. I am not saying that is what you did - but it sounds like that may be her perception. You don't say what your marriage and relationship was like before the miscarriage, but if there was a pattern of her perceiving you are not supportive or emotionally connected to her enough before - this incident may have pushed her over the edge. Its also highly possible she is turning to someone else to help rid herself of the pain she feels. 

No matter what - you can't do anything but work on yourself. I would strongly suggest you get some counseling yourself - pull back and give her space and time for now - but let her know you will be there when she is ready to talk. Encourage her to get some individual counseling. Her pulling away may be because she can't handle the pain she is feeling right now. She may need professional help in dealing with that pain. If she is turning to someone else - there isn't anything you can do about it anyways. You can only let her know your boundaries - that if she does that - (fill in the blank - is it a deal breaker to you?). 

Perhaps - after some individual counseling for both of you - you can start to work together again on the marriage, if that is what you both want.


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## Ian (Jun 14, 2017)

mary35 said:


> Take a deep breath and relax.
> 
> This is clearly a confusing and painful time for both of you! It sounds like the miscarriage has really affected her deeply. Going on what you wrote - it's highly possible that the way you responded to her pain and her emotions left her feeling like you did not understand and were not supportive in the way she needed you to be. And that may have compounded her pain to the point that she can't bare it. So she is seeking an escape from it - from you because you caused it - in her mind. I am not saying that is what you did - but it sounds like that may be her perception. You don't say what your marriage and relationship was like before the miscarriage, but if there was a pattern of her perceiving you are not supportive or emotionally connected to her enough before - this incident may have pushed her over the edge. Its also highly possible she is turning to someone else to help rid herself of the pain she feels.
> 
> ...


Prior to the miscarriage we had very very mild issues. We talked all the time though and always did things together. She has 0 patience anyway and that hasn't changed. Our marriage counselor is meeting with her one on one tomorrow. We've had a really good marriage for the last 4 years. If you asked 2 weeks ago, "would you and your wife ever separate?" the answer would have be absolutely not. we are a fantastic couple with an amazing baby. You are right about me not being there emotionally. I have kind of checked out on the relationship stuff. I thought that talking and cleaning/picking up the slack in the house made me a good husband but I know we need to do stuff together, whether its looking at furniture online or laughing at a movie. I've taken that stuff for granted and I really hope I have an opportunity to do it again.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Ian said:


> Prior to the miscarriage we had very very mild issues. We talked all the time though and always did things together. She has 0 patience anyway and that hasn't changed. Our marriage counselor is meeting with her one on one tomorrow. We've had a really good marriage for the last 4 years. If you asked 2 weeks ago, "would you and your wife ever separate?" the answer would have be absolutely not. we are a fantastic couple with an amazing baby. You are right about me not being there emotionally. I have kind of checked out on the relationship stuff. I thought that talking and cleaning/picking up the slack in the house made me a good husband but I know we need to do stuff together, whether its looking at furniture online or laughing at a movie. I've taken that stuff for granted and I really hope I have an opportunity to do it again.


I hope you do too. A miscarriage for many woman is a death of a baby. Many don't understand just how deep the pain and emotional loss runs for some woman. I know men grieve in their own way too. But if both grieve separately it sometimes can create a deep wedge in the relationship. That kind of sounds like what happened here. 

How long have you been "checked out on the relationship stuff"? Like I said, if this was a pattern before - the miscarriage may be the straw to break the camel's back. If that's the case - you may not get the chance to make things right again. Like I also said before - start working on you. Become the husband you can be. Learn how to be emotionally available and supportive. Hopefully she will see the changes and respond positively. 

Whatever you do - don't keep acting the way you have been. Give her space and time. Let her know you want the marriage to work, that you love her and are willing to work on your part of the issues in the marriage. Let her know you will wait until she is ready to talk to you again with the counselor. In the mean time - get IC for you! You have a lot of work to do.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Ian said:


> Prior to the miscarriage we had very very mild issues. We talked all the time though and always did things together. She has 0 patience anyway and that hasn't changed. Our marriage counselor is meeting with her one on one tomorrow. We've had a really good marriage for the last 4 years. If you asked 2 weeks ago, "would you and your wife ever separate?" the answer would have be absolutely not. we are a fantastic couple with an amazing baby. You are right about me not being there emotionally. I have kind of checked out on the relationship stuff. I thought that talking and cleaning/picking up the slack in the house made me a good husband but I know we need to do stuff together, whether its looking at furniture online or laughing at a movie. I've taken that stuff for granted and I really hope I have an opportunity to do it again.


You do understand her answer could be 180 degrees in the other direction? You can only answer for you. Many spouses, of either gender, have been blindsided by divorce or separation talk. You have a larger issue with the miscarriage, but it doesn't mean the out look of your marriage compared to her is the same. Here's the thing you will not get. You needed help as well during the miscarriage. Yes, it is different for you because you didn't carry the baby, but it doesn't mean it was just as emotionally devastating. Sadly, there isn't a ton of help for men because we are strong blah blah blah blah blah.

Sorry, but you better research. The last thing you need to do is step back, wait and let a possibly depressed person figure it out on their own. I am not saying to force or push her, but separation RARELY helps except in extreme circumstances. Numbers vary, but separation has an extremely high divorce rate.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

I agree, there are some red flags here, and it would be worth investigating. Either you find out something is going on with another man, or you can rule out that possibility.

My immediate thought, however, in reading your post, is that your wife sounds depressed and overwhelmed. She had a miscarriage 2.5 months ago, and you're already trying again? She might not be ready, and feels pressure from you, which may be putting her off. If she feels depressed and overwhelmed, it is hard to feel love and connect with a partner, because everything ELSE is so big and hanging over her head. She probably needs to see a therapist/counselor who isn't a friend--she needs someone who is impartial and isn't handing out meds like candy.

She may just need a break, and need some space. She's telling you she needs some space, so give it to her. Check out Michelle Weiner's Divorce Busting, and do the 180 to give her some space. This will be good for you, too. If she's done, if she's already mentally checked out of the marriage, you won't be able to convince her to stay... she needs to realize on her own what she is giving up if she leaves.

Also, you may want to see a therapist/counselor yourself. I've met a lot of men who think they are great boyfriends/husbands, and they really aren't... and then when their wives leave them, they're totally blindsided and devastated. Their wives had been trying to communicate that the marriage was in trouble for years, but the blockheads were dismissive, or didn't listen, or didn't take her seriously. I'm not saying that you're a bad husband, but now would be a good time to be introspective and consider if you've really been the best partner to her. And that's the sort of thing that people generally need outside help with. Read this particular blog post, see if anything resonates with you, and then continue to explore the rest of the blog.

Good luck.


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## Ian (Jun 14, 2017)

mary35 said:


> I hope you do too. A miscarriage for many woman is a death of a baby. Many don't understand just how deep the pain and emotional loss runs for some woman. I know men grieve in their own way too. But if both grieve separately it sometimes can create a deep wedge in the relationship. That kind of sounds like what happened here.
> 
> How long have you been "checked out on the relationship stuff"? Like I said, if this was a pattern before - the miscarriage may be the straw to break the camel's back. If that's the case - you may not get the chance to make things right again. Like I also said before - start working on you. Become the husband you can be. Learn how to be emotionally available and supportive. Hopefully she will see the changes and respond positively.
> 
> Whatever you do - don't keep acting the way you have been. Give her space and time. Let her know you want the marriage to work, that you love her and are willing to work on your part of the issues in the marriage. Let her know you will wait until she is ready to talk to you again with the counselor. In the mean time - get IC for you! You have a lot of work to do.


I don't know how long honestly, we work opposite shifts and most free time we have is spent with with the kiddo. At night after he goes to sleep and I'm off work that's our only "us" time. So I'm sure her emotional needs haven't been met to the extent they should be. She has never complained by the way, as I reflect on situations I think we could have had really nice quality time together. She starts taking antidepressants today actually so maybe that will help. I'm hoping the is the depression and shes just not happy with me right now. She gets super hella impatient with our son which drives me crazy but I don't want to say anything and be too insensitive. But its really sad to watch someone lose there temper over a baby who "wants to cuddle mommy" granted its a LOT of cuddling lol, so I know shes just at wits end. I meet with the counselor next week by myself. over the last week since we don't talk to eachother like we should, Ive had to read between the lines.. and theres so much negativity right now its hard to see anything but signs of cheating or her with one foot out the door.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Ian said:


> I don't know how long honestly, we work opposite shifts and most free time we have is spent with with the kiddo. At night after he goes to sleep and I'm off work that's our only "us" time. So I'm sure her emotional needs haven't been met to the extent they should be. She has never complained by the way, as I reflect on situations I think we could have had really nice quality time together. She starts taking antidepressants today actually so maybe that will help. I'm hoping the is the depression and shes just not happy with me right now. She gets super hella impatient with our son which drives me crazy but I don't want to say anything and be too insensitive. But its really sad to watch someone lose there temper over a baby who "wants to cuddle mommy" granted its a LOT of cuddling lol, so I know shes just at wits end. I meet with the counselor next week by myself. over the last week since we don't talk to eachother like we should, Ive had to read between the lines.. and theres so much negativity right now its hard to see anything but signs of cheating or her with one foot out the door.


Working opposite shifts will KILL a marriage. The two of you haven't been able to spend enough time together to maintain emotional intimacy, and most women need emotional intimacy to be physically intimate. She likely feels disconnected from you emotionally, and she sees this status quo dragging out indefinitely. Which is probably why she is thinking that she wants out.

Being married to someone you never see isn't really a marriage, and it makes one feel single (with all the work and little support) without the benefits of actually being single. When that marriage also lacks emotional and physical intimacy, you're in real trouble.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Ian said:


> I don't know how long honestly, we work opposite shifts and most free time we have is spent with with the kiddo. At night after he goes to sleep and I'm off work that's our only "us" time. So I'm sure her emotional needs haven't been met to the extent they should be. She has never complained by the way, as I reflect on situations I think we could have had really nice quality time together. She starts taking antidepressants today actually so maybe that will help. I'm hoping the is the depression and shes just not happy with me right now. She gets super hella impatient with our son which drives me crazy but I don't want to say anything and be too insensitive. But its really sad to watch someone lose there temper over a baby who "wants to cuddle mommy" granted its a LOT of cuddling lol, so I know shes just at wits end. I meet with the counselor next week by myself. over the last week since we don't talk to eachother like we should, Ive had to read between the lines.. and theres so much negativity right now its hard to see anything but signs of cheating or her with one foot out the door.



That may well be the case - she may be cheating and/or have one foot out of the door. Hindsite is 20/20. It's easy to see what we have done wrong in the past, but not so easy to see what we need to do in the present. You can't change the past - you can only move forward. You can't change her - you can only change you. But you can set up boundaries for both you and your son to protect the both of you if you need to. 

Sometimes when someone is in so much pain - they emotionally shut down or build up walls around themselves. They do things to keep from feeling the pain instead of dealing with it. Perhaps she is doing that with your son right now. I don't know - you don't say if she has always been that way with him or if that is something new. Either way, if you think it is something detrimental to your son - you owe it to him to speak up for him. You can do this in a gentle way or perhaps talk to the counselor about it and have her help you talk to her about it. 

As far as the possible cheating goes - why do you think that is a possibility?


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Ian said:


> First of all I'm sorry for posting to the women's section, but I'm tired of reading posts suggesting you put recorders in your wife's car and read her text messages to find out the truth. Also I want to apologize for the length of the this post..
> 
> My situation isn't pretty, my wife and I suffered a miscarriage about 2 and half months ago. She took it pretty bad for a couple of weeks but soon we decided to try again and that the pregnancy just wasn't right. We tried to have another baby with no luck and over the last 6 weeks shes been a roller coaster of emotion. She will be super excited one minute then pissed off the next. She's missed my son's soccer games and a practice because she was sleeping all day. This is clearly depression. She knows its depression and talked to her phycologist... but the dr is more of a friend as in she prescribes aderall to everyone.. so I don't know how much help her Dr actually is. She told me about a month ago she thinks about ending her life 3 times week and cries every night. She says she puts on a smile for me because she knows its depression causing these feelings and doesn't want to hurt our relationship.
> Last Sunday (8 days ago) she texted me and said "I'm sorry ive been in a funk for the last three days, Ive just been out of it." I replied no worries, I hadn't really noticed. Then the next day on Monday, she says we've been distant and she needs her space, maybe a separation will do us good. She tells me this while we are on our way to home depot looking at hardwood flooring... I totally freak out, we've been together for 6 years, married for 4 and have a beautiful 3 year old boy. I started getting mad, then sad. I asked if she met someone and her response was "I would never disrespect you like that, NO". She said that she just doesn't feel the same way about me, she doesn't feel like she used to and that we have no spark anymore. I still love her, I am in love with her, I deal with the crazy and pick up as much of the responsibility as possible to make her life less stressful. The following Tuesday she went to work at 1030 am and stayed at her parents house that night. While she was at work she texted me and said that the she has lost control of her emotions and cant find happiness, she really wants us to make it and just needs me to be patient. I followed with a "baby I'm here for you we can make it" kind of thing. then she sends me a link about the benefits of trial separation... That didn't go well for me, it made me think this is her trying to get out fast but trying to save face with the family. We had a good Thursday night, then we had our first counselor appointment on Friday. That went ok, she said it wasn't anything to do with me and wanted to save the marriage. Saturday she goes to work and does text me at all (we normally talk all throughout the day, just normal conversation stuff). When I would text her I got one word responses. She said she was going to pick up a first cut shift that night meaning she'd get off around 8. Our son was with my sister in law as we both work on Saturdays. Since my wife clearly didn't want to talk to me I texted my sister in law to check on the babe. My wife texted and said she wasn't getting a break and wouldn't be off before I was. I get off work at 1030pm. I freaked out a little. I said you are telling me you'll be at work for 12 hours and cant get a break to tell me whats going on. we fought alittle via text, I picked up the babe, and she got home at 1230. I wanted to talk about what happened and why she wouldn't talk to me. She just stormed off and went to sleep in our sons room. So spitefully I went out with a friend of mine in an I'll show you manner... bad idea. She might have cared I don't know. I spent sunday at work listening to some save your marriage podcasts and learned some very insightful info, basically everything I had been doing was wrong. I also didn't text her, call her or talk to her in an attempt to give her some room. So with some excitement in my new found insight, I write a letter for her. no judgement no blame just me taking responsibility for everything, and a promise to fix the marriage no matter what.
> ...



A miscarriage can have a huge impact on a woman, all those pregnancy hormones were there and are now gone, can play havoc with the emotions, go and have her checked out with a doctor.
How much emotional support have you been giving her, if you have been avoiding the elephant in the room you are not coming across as supportive, which will make her withdraw. 

I am amazed at how some people are simply jumping to cheating, a woman and her body is not a machine.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

FeministInPink said:


> Working opposite shifts will KILL a marriage. The two of you haven't been able to spend enough time together to maintain emotional intimacy, and most women need emotional intimacy to be physically intimate. She likely feels disconnected from you emotionally, and she sees this status quo dragging out indefinitely. Which is probably why she is thinking that she wants out.
> 
> Being married to someone you never see isn't really a marriage, and it makes one feel single (with all the work and little support) without the benefits of actually being single. When that marriage also lacks emotional and physical intimacy, you're in real trouble.


Agreed!
It's so easy to jump at the opposite shift schedule for child care reasons; it seem so logical, and it is on its face. But in practice, it turns even newlyweds into nothing more than roommates who end up babysitting the same kid in shifts. Work..sit...sleep...work..sit..sleep -- never any quality time together, just the never ending burdens of work and child care and with nobody to even share them with! It is a recipe for disaster. What starts out as being the best thing for junior ends up making junior's parent miserable, so not only is it not the best thing for the parents, in the end it's not even the best thing for junior. 

And with hubby never there at the same time, that can be an open invitation to others.

This needs to be fixed if there's any chance of the rest being fixed.


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## Ian (Jun 14, 2017)

@FeministInPink- I couldn't post your quote because there were links or something lol. 

You mentioned it might be too soon to try again and she felt pressure. So when she had the miscarriage the doc said to give it a few months before trying again. She was super offended and as soon as her hcg levels got normal she wanted to start, I didn't complain btw. She is definitely overwhelmed, there is no doubt. I watched her paint her toenails last night with a pretty down look on her face. I got up to check on our son and when I returned to the room her head was in her knees and she was sobbing. I don't understand depression. When I see that shes either dying on the inside or she is dying to tell me something but just cant. 
As far as "investigation" goes, I'm just not comfortable with it. I'm afraid i'll never be satisfied and I will be obsessed with trying to catch her doing something. Which could also lead to an expedient end. Like on Saturday when she got off work at 1230 which is really really suspicious. I wanted to drive by her work and see if she was there. Then I thought about it, if I see her car will I be satisfied... or will I then assume she rode with some dude somewhere... So I didn't go. Thank you all so much, writing this stuff out is very therapeutic and it keeps me from looking at my phone every 5 min to see if my wife has texted me.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

I am very sorry for your loss. 

I don't think she is cheating, it's depression. Everyone has different symptoms and acts differently. But I can relate to your wife, during one of my depression episodes a few years ago, I was suffering with grief and did everything in my power to push my husband away. 

I think you should focus on trying to help her sort out her depression. Has she been to the doctor regarding treatment?


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## Ian (Jun 14, 2017)

MrsAldi said:


> I am very sorry for your loss.
> 
> I don't think she is cheating, it's depression. Everyone has different symptoms and acts differently. But I can relate to your wife, during one of my depression episodes a few years ago, I was suffering with grief and did everything in my power to push my husband away.
> 
> I think you should focus on trying to help her sort out her depression. Has she been to the doctor regarding treatment?


Her therapist is her friend, and that's the only person professionally that shes spoken to about the severe depression thoughts she says, my concern was that since they knew each other personally she might not open up. In our first marriage counseling session this past Friday she talked about the depression and the miscarriage but didn't go into much detail. So hopefully when she meets with the counselor tomorrow she will be able to really open up since I wont be there. How did you husband handle it? when did you realize what was going on and try to get things back to normal?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ian said:


> I don't know how long honestly, we work opposite shifts and most free time we have is spent with with the kiddo.


This is the kiss of death to your marriage. I'm sure you feel you 'have' to have these particular jobs, but if you can't have a life in which you two spend real time together it's almost impossible to stay in love. You need to seriously look into getting a job (one of you) where you're not in opposite shifts or else improving your skills/training so you can go out and get another job. 

Having a kid is stressful enough on a marriage. Add in not even having the same shifts and then losing a baby? Wow.


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## Ian (Jun 14, 2017)

mary35 said:


> That may well be the case - she may be cheating and/or have one foot out of the door. Hindsite is 20/20. It's easy to see what we have done wrong in the past, but not so easy to see what we need to do in the present. You can't change the past - you can only move forward. You can't change her - you can only change you. But you can set up boundaries for both you and your son to protect the both of you if you need to.
> 
> Sometimes when someone is in so much pain - they emotionally shut down or build up walls around themselves. They do things to keep from feeling the pain instead of dealing with it. Perhaps she is doing that with your son right now. I don't know - you don't say if she has always been that way with him or if that is something new. Either way, if you think it is something detrimental to your son - you owe it to him to speak up for him. You can do this in a gentle way or perhaps talk to the counselor about it and have her help you talk to her about it.
> 
> As far as the possible cheating goes - why do you think that is a possibility?


Recently its been kind of an up and down thing between her and our son. She said that one time when she started to talk to him he covered his ears (like she was about to yell). It broke her heart so shes been trying to be more patient and calm. When he is being good, not too whiny or anything, they have an amazing love affair kind of relationship. I mean its beautiful to see. Unfortunately, as soon as he gets too much to handle she loses it. With the cheating thing, i believe its me just trying to make sense of whats going on. For some reason its easier for me to process someone saying they are leaving me for another man vs. they want to leave to clear their head. I've never been suspicious before and have never had an urge to check on her or snoop through her stuff. This is all new to me and I cant just be myself. I keep putting the dots together and theres not much to go on, just negative emotions.


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## Ian (Jun 14, 2017)

aine said:


> A miscarriage can have a huge impact on a woman, all those pregnancy hormones were there and are now gone, can play havoc with the emotions, go and have her checked out with a doctor.
> How much emotional support have you been giving her, if you have been avoiding the elephant in the room you are not coming across as supportive, which will make her withdraw.I am amazed at how some people are simply jumping to cheating, a woman and her body is not a machine.


When it happened she was massively devastated. I came home from work and I told her to take her time. to think, to do whatever it takes. We have absolutely addressed that issue. She doesnt think she was able to properly grieve but im not sure what that means or how i can help. Its worth mentioning we lost the baby very early in the pregnancy, before the first doc appointment in fact. I was very excited but it cant be anything compared to her. She really wanted a second child and was over the moon when we found out.


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## Ian (Jun 14, 2017)

I really hope I haven't made my wife out to be this crazy cheating abusive psycho. Shes honestly a very supportive loving person who is a really good mom. Her downtimes though are really bad. All of this we are talking about has happened in the last 9 days. It was very sudden to me and took me by surprise, and thats why im here trying to make sense of it all. We agreed she had some depression issues from the miscarriage but it wasnt enough for her to make a special doc appointment. I'm glad you all are so responsive and insightful, its put me in a position where i want to defend her against the allegation of cheating. As we talk an I read your responses I'm getting out of this emotional zone and thinking more objectively. Thank you all so much.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Ian said:


> Recently its been kind of an up and down thing between her and our son. She said that one time when she started to talk to him he covered his ears (like she was about to yell). It broke her heart so shes been trying to be more patient and calm. When he is being good, not too whiny or anything, they have an amazing love affair kind of relationship. I mean its beautiful to see. Unfortunately, as soon as he gets too much to handle she loses it. With the cheating thing, i believe its me just trying to make sense of whats going on. For some reason its easier for me to process someone saying they are leaving me for another man vs. they want to leave to clear their head. I've never been suspicious before and have never had an urge to check on her or snoop through her stuff. This is all new to me and I cant just be myself. I keep putting the dots together and theres not much to go on, just negative emotions.


Your child's safety is the #1 priority right now. Sorry, a kid freaking out like he is going to get yelled at is not good. Kids get whiny, clingy and demonstrative. I am not saying it is easy for your wife at all, but you said "loses it" not me. You need to get some daycare going, get her to a legit evaluation and protect your child.


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## Ian (Jun 14, 2017)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Your child's safety is the #1 priority right now. Sorry, a kid freaking out like he is going to get yelled at is not good. Kids get whiny, clingy and demonstrative. I am not saying it is easy for your wife at all, but you said "loses it" not me. You need to get some daycare going, get her to a legit evaluation and protect your child.


Im not concerned about his physical safety, i get concerned because sometimes she just doesnt have patience with him. It is something that she is talking to the counselor about as well. She really is a good mom, maybe you are right, maybe daycare would be good for us.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Ian said:


> Im not concerned about his physical safety, i get concerned because sometimes she just doesnt have patience with him. It is something that she is talking to the counselor about as well. She really is a good mom, maybe you are right, maybe daycare would be good for us.


I didn't say physical. Verbal and emotional abuse can be just as damaging and I'd argue more so, if you actually delve into the problems.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

As @aine noted, the pregnancy hormones can wreak havoc. She sounds depressed, anxious, panicked, confused, self-righeous, and indignant. (Sounds like me in perimenopause...)

She's off the rails and knows it. She could also be justifying her behavior and that behavior could be the start of an affair. There are definitely red flags. Her depression and an A are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

You posted here for the female take. Mine is that she is depressed and unhappy AND that there are some red flags for cheating that you must investigate. It may seem like it's more honest to confront with direct conversation, but thousands of people here will testify that it is better to get your proof one way or the other before you talk to her about your suspicions.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

I had what is called a missed miscarriage (baby had died about 2 weeks before MC happened, that was about 17 years ago and it still impacts me. A MC is such a devastating event, very traumatic and an emotional hell. I remember feeling completely alone and yes even suicidal at times.

Your wife has the added burden of an emotionally unavailable husband. Now would be the worst time for you to try and be the husband you should have been earlier, my guess is that it is too late for that. You cannot neglect your wifes emotional needs for years and then think it is possible to make up for it now while she is in one of the most traumatic times of her life.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Agreed!
> It's so easy to jump at the opposite shift schedule for child care reasons; it seem so logical, and it is on its face. But in practice, it turns even newlyweds into nothing more than roommates who end up babysitting the same kid in shifts. Work..sit...sleep...work..sit..sleep -- never any quality time together, just the never ending burdens of work and child care and with nobody to even share them with! It is a recipe for disaster. What starts out as being the best thing for junior ends up making junior's parent miserable, so not only is it not the best thing for the parents, in the end it's not even the best thing for junior.
> 
> And with hubby never there at the same time, that can be an open invitation to others.
> ...


Totally agree. Now throw in a miscarriage and a husband who checked out emotionally and it's not hard to see how they ended up here.

The first thing that needs to change is the opposite shift thing.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Ian said:


> Recently its been kind of an up and down thing between her and our son. She said that one time when she started to talk to him he covered his ears (like she was about to yell). It broke her heart so shes been trying to be more patient and calm. When he is being good, not too whiny or anything, they have an amazing love affair kind of relationship. I mean its beautiful to see. Unfortunately, as soon as he gets too much to handle she loses it. With the cheating thing, i believe its me just trying to make sense of whats going on. For some reason its easier for me to process someone saying they are leaving me for another man vs. they want to leave to clear their head. I've never been suspicious before and have never had an urge to check on her or snoop through her stuff. This is all new to me and I cant just be myself. I keep putting the dots together and theres not much to go on, just negative emotions.


Ok - I'm a bit confused. Are there any signs at all that she may be cheating - or did you just jump to that conclusion for absolutely no reason? If it's the latter - do you have a history of being overly jealous or insecure for no reason?

You are the one who brought up cheating. I don't think any of us would have gone that road based on anything you wrote. If there are good reasons you brought it up or think that way - are you sure you want to rug sweep it? You can if you want to - it certainly is one of your choices, especially if her cheating is not a deal breaker for you and you can live happily and not dwell on it. But if you can't - then maybe for your peace of mind or well being you should investigate it a little longer.

If there are no good reasons to go down the cheating road - please let it go - and try to understand that you bringing that up at this emotional and painful time in her life - is making it even worse for her.


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## lisacolorado (May 2, 2017)

I think you should give her that time away. My reason is that you would then be free to pay your son the attention he needs, and you'd develop your bond with him. You'd give your wife an alternative view, and she'd be shown life without you and be able to decide what she wants. I recommend you refocus off of her. It won't be for long.


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## Ian (Jun 14, 2017)

MrsHolland said:


> I had what is called a missed miscarriage (baby had died about 2 weeks before MC happened, that was about 17 years ago and it still impacts me. A MC is such a devastating event, very traumatic and an emotional hell. I remember feeling completely alone and yes even suicidal at times.
> 
> Your wife has the added burden of an emotionally unavailable husband. Now would be the worst time for you to try and be the husband you should have been earlier, my guess is that it is too late for that. You cannot neglect your wifes emotional needs for years and then think it is possible to make up for it now while she is in one of the most traumatic times of her life.


We have been very happy for 6 years. I didnt mean to say emotionally unavailable as in I wasnt there for her when she was sad and upset or anything. We had excellent communication with eachother and enjoyed our small amount of free time. What I was trying to say is that I missed opportunities that she would present for us to bond. Like recently she decided to paint the bathroom which i thought was a bad idea. She wanted to do it after i got off work but I told her i wanted no part in turning my bathroom "ming dynasty white" aka purple. I missed a great chance for us to bond, spend time together making a mess and laughing about it. That type of thing is what I am certainly guilty of. When you were going through your depression did you get distant from your spouse? I think I'm really here to find reassurance from women that they will be distant, not want to communicate, not wear their wedding ring, and show zero affection but not cheating or wanting to cheat. They are just going through a hard time and just want to be alone.


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## Ian (Jun 14, 2017)

mary35 said:


> Ok - I'm a bit confused. Are there any signs at all that she may be cheating - or did you just jump to that conclusion for absolutely no reason? If it's the latter - do you have a history of being overly jealous or insecure for no reason?
> 
> You are the one who brought up cheating. I don't think any of us would have gone that road based on anything you wrote. If there are good reasons you brought it up or think that way - are you sure you want to rug sweep it? You can if you want to - it certainly is one of your choices, especially if her cheating is not a deal breaker for you and you can live happily and not dwell on it. But if you can't - then maybe for your peace of mind or well being you should investigate it a little longer.
> 
> If there are no good reasons to go down the cheating road - please let it go - and try to understand that you bringing that up at this emotional and painful time in her life - is making it even worse for her.


Type in "what does it mean when my wife wants a separation" in google... I have no evidence other than her sudden behavior, I posted here hoping to find women who have been in this state mentally. Wanted their space, had limited conversation, and weren't intimate in any form but werent having an affair. We have had an amazing honest relationship but I can't get it out of my head that there is another cause to this. I keep telling her not to throw away a 6 year relationship because of the last few months. I know she cant control the way she feels and we agreed to wait until after the marriage counseling before anymore talk of separation. I've got about 5 weeks left..


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## Ian (Jun 14, 2017)

I want to thank all of you who read this and replied. You have absolutely made my evening much less anxious and hopefully my mental state will help her as well. This is the hardest thing I've ever gone through. I'm sitting on my recliner now while she is out with friends and the baby is asleep, looking at 6 years of happy memories hanging on my walls. That is an incredible motivator to find a way to make this work. I will keep you guys posted and lets pray for a happy ending. I hope to continue reading more thoughts of the opposite sex. Love you ladies but my goodness y'all aren't simple creatures. Thank you again.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Ian said:


> We have been very happy for 6 years. I didnt mean to say emotionally unavailable as in I wasnt there for her when she was sad and upset or anything. We had excellent communication with eachother and enjoyed our small amount of free time. What I was trying to say is that I missed opportunities that she would present for us to bond. Like recently she decided to paint the bathroom which i thought was a bad idea. She wanted to do it after i got off work but I told her i wanted no part in turning my bathroom "ming dynasty white" aka purple. I missed a great chance for us to bond, spend time together making a mess and laughing about it. That type of thing is what I am certainly guilty of. When you were going through your depression did you get distant from your spouse? I think I'm really here to find reassurance from women that they will be distant, not want to communicate, not wear their wedding ring, and show zero affection but not cheating or wanting to cheat. They are just going through a hard time and just want to be alone.


Ian I can only answer about my own personal experience. FWIW I was not going through depression I was going through an emotionally isolating hell that it very hard to explain to anyone that has not personally experienced it. A missed MC has it's own heightened level of pain as you find out afterwards that you were carrying a dead baby  but your body still behaved like it was pregnant. I have never suffered with depression however I did have antenatal depression (not post natal depression) with my next pregnancy as I was so scared to have another MC, might be worth keeping this in mind should you guys try again.

If you lost an arm your wife would have her own feelings, grief etc about this however she would never be able to feel your isolation and internal turmoil, likewise you cannot feel hers with a MC. She was not only going through the emotional pain but also the hormonal impact and then the loss of part of her future.
I do not agree with trying so soon afterwards for another baby because it sets couples up for failure at an already stress filled time in life, but that is just my POV.

I did not cheat, I have never cheated.
Taking off a wedding ring is IMHO a cry for help if the person is in turmoil. If a person wanted to cheat then taking off their wedding ring would be a stupid red flag to give their partner.

As to the emotional unavailability, well I think you have nailed it in this post. Couples need to bond and live a life together as true partners. This is extremely important to focus on when times are good because when times are bad it is this bond that will help you through. Like I said earlier, when things are bad it is not going to help much to try and fix this lack of bonding. you are not her rock, you did not give her that when times were good so somewhere in her mind she believes she cannot rely on you.

No one can answer to say your wife is or is not cheating but I think you are in danger of making things worse by being on TAM at such a fragile time in your life. This place is top heavy with people that think that any time a woman acts out of character then she much be cheating. I do not subscribe to this line of thinking. 

I struggled greatly after the MC and my then husband and I did not have a great emotional bond, he was not my rock. We did eventually divorce but for other reasons. My second husband has a very high EQ and we have been through some pretty hard times but through everything I know I can rely on him, in fact he is always the person I seek out to talk to and to be with when I need support. If your wife is choosing to be apart from you then you have real issues, sure she may want time alone but it seems she wants company, just not from you.

I wish you well. TBH it may serve you better to seek professional advise instead of randoms on the net. Your local Dr or hospital should have support available for you to seek information about MC and the impact on both the mother and father.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I totally get why you are concerned. Your wife is clearly turning away from you AND your marriage at the moment. It should be troubling to you that she has taken off her ring and refuses to wear it. She is clearly making a very strong statement with that one act alone. Add in the other stuff and I totally understand why you are worried and concerned about her and your marriage. She is choosing to turn away from you both physically and emotionally and she is hiding no bones while doing it. These are not good signs in any marriage. Given her state of mind - and a seemingly contempt towards you - continuing with the therapist is about the only course you have at the moment. 

Since you also have some time alone - I suggest you also read the book "His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage" by Willard F. Jr. Harley, This is his web site which has a lot of good info. Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice

When reading or listening to videos - be sure to have the mindset of "how do I need to change, what do I need to do differently" not "my spouse needs to be doing that or she should do that differently". Again its about you making changes and becoming a better person, husband, and father - not about getting your spouse to change. And don't expect immediate positive reactions as you start to make changes. It takes time to prove that the changes are real and lasting. Anyone can change themselves short term when they are in crisis mode.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Ian said:


> We have been very happy for 6 years. I didnt mean to say emotionally unavailable as in I wasnt there for her when she was sad and upset or anything. We had excellent communication with eachother and enjoyed our small amount of free time. What I was trying to say is that I missed opportunities that she would present for us to bond. Like recently she decided to paint the bathroom which i thought was a bad idea. She wanted to do it after i got off work but I told her i wanted no part in turning my bathroom "ming dynasty white" aka purple. I missed a great chance for us to bond, spend time together making a mess and laughing about it. That type of thing is what I am certainly guilty of. When you were going through your depression did you get distant from your spouse? I think I'm really here to find reassurance from women that they will be distant, not want to communicate, not wear their wedding ring, and show zero affection but not cheating or wanting to cheat. They are just going through a hard time and just want to be alone.


Women will normally say nothing when their emotional needs are neglected and just hang on for kids, etc hoping things will turn around. However, the full depth of the emotional neglect probably surfaced with the MC depending on whether you actually tried to meet her needs for comfort and support at the time of the miscarriage. If not, then it shows her even more clearly that you are not there for her, she is depressed, grieving the lost child and maybe even a lost marriage. You have to tread very carefully to come back from this one, hoping it will sort itself out is not going to cut it. Her impatience with your son is also a sign of depression and being unable to handle her overwhelming feelings of abandonment imo.

She may or may not be in a position to fall into the arms of another man. Most certainly if another man pays her attention, listens to her pain, then .............time for you to step up to the plate


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Without knowing her side, I'd say that your wife is on her way to a definite crash and burn. 

What the h3ll is she doing going out with friends until 3-4am when she has a 3 year-old?! Go with her or put your foot down. 

You are being such a nice guy she is finding it cloying, like being trapped in a telephone booth with a fart.

I don't understand why you can't VAR her car or demand to see her phone. She's your wife, not some stranger, and you have a right to know what's going on, especially when you won't find out the truth directly from her.

I'm sorry about the miscarriages, it's understandable why she would be so upset, but as you say she has no patience for failure. That attitude is certainly not healthy or helpful when dealing with such a turn of events. She likely felt like a failure and when a woman needs strong validation and reassurance, she can find it anywhere it's dispensed like pez. 

I'm sure others can give more quality advice. But I think you're going to have to dig if you want answers.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

I am going to offer this to you from a mans perspective. Taking off the rings....BAD. Asking for a separation....BAD. Going out without wedding rings with a group!?

You need to man up, take charge, be assertive with her and let her know first that the removal of rings is a sign of disrespect to you marriage. Sorry man, I call it like I see it. She very likely has someone on the side. You really need to consider VAR. 

She is in outer space mentally, and you need to bring her back to earth. Give her a deadline to decide. If no decision serve her with divorce papers. 

She is gaslighting you in my opinion.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ian said:


> I think I'm really here to find reassurance from women that they will be distant, not want to communicate, not wear their wedding ring, and show zero affection but not cheating or wanting to cheat. They are just going through a hard time and just want to be alone.


Yes. That is true. Although not everyone's the same. But when a woman's distant, it seems to me that it's usually because they have been hurt in some way. Best to dive into if that's true.

As for the rings thing, the only time I ever consciously took off my ring was in my first year of marriage, totally disillusioned with it, and I met a guy in one of my classes at college. Next 2 or 3 classes, I purposely did not wear my ring. And he did talk to me. But then my guilt got so bad I put my ring back on. 

In your wife's case, it's possible that she's in a freefall trying to figure out what life is all about, why is it so hard, is this all there is, what if I had never gotten married, etc. IMO, she needs professional help.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Taking off her rings consistently is a message as loud as if she were shouting into a megaphone. 

"F this."


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## Ian (Jun 14, 2017)

Thanks again for the thoughts. I have to agree that not wearing a ring is an F you in my face. Last night when she came home, I wasnt in a good mood and I told her to talk to her parents about her moving in for a little while, thats happening this evening so we will see how it goes. I'm convinced she ISNT cheating or seeing someone else. I am pretty certain though that she really doesnt want to be in this marriage anymore. Its like as soon as she said the words "I need some space, maybe some time apart will do us good" she turned off any possibility other than that. Today however shes really upset, maybe the reality of separation is setting in and she doesnt want to do it.. i dont know. Thanks again everyone. I'll post back when i get a chance.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

It's time to work on yourself. Focus on you and the kids. I wouldn't be so sure she isn't cheating, but if she wants out, let her. Most of the time, any separating just gives them a chance to bone someone else without their spouse breathing down their neck. Don't let her play mind games with you. Either she is in (and she stays in the house to work on the marriage) or she is out. Do you really want someone who is wishy washy as your spouse?


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## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

Better that she goes to stay with her parents than move out and play the field. I have a feeling that mommy and daddy would not enable her going out all hours of the night and would instead try to get her to open up. What she really needs is a shoulder of someone who she trusts to cry on, not a controlled alcohol-enabled crash from potential enablers of infidelity toward your marriage. 

Still, her feelings toward you are a real concern. I wouldn't suggest going full NC with her while she's with her parents. Instead, maybe go to visit on the weekend or when you have a couple of days off and use that as an opportunity for you and her to do something alone while the grandparents watch your child. I certainly wouldn't use it as an opportunity to get a hotel room and try and make another baby. Heavy petting only, her parents - and your child - are watching! ;o) Seriously though, your wife's in no psychological state to fully appreciate the situation; she's looking to replace something that was lost and isn't thinking far enough ahead. 

I'd also see about talking with your in-laws without her around just to air your concerns and get their perspective. Hopefully you are in good standing with them. If not, given the way your wife is acting toward you there's further opportunity for character assassination. 

Regardless, this needs to be a short term thing where she is essentially removing herself from a setting that she clearly associates with the trauma of losing the baby. Two weeks at the most, with frequent phones calls and weekly visits. Tell her that you still want to be married to her and that whatever she's feeling is likely temporary and that you will be there for her. 

You will, right? That's kind of what marriage is all about, isn't it?

For your part, you should definitely set up marriage counseling for the two of you to try to attend - but only after she has started her own IC in order to sort her true feelings out.


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## Ian (Jun 14, 2017)

The reason I'm convinced she isn't having an affair or even talking to someone else seriously is because she is very free with her phone. I mean she hasn't changed the pin and leaves out for the world to see all the time. In fact I don't think any of her passwords have changed. I am feeling comfortable with that. She's going to her parents before me but I have a great relationship with my in-laws so they will definitely support what's best for their daughter without the threat of immediate sabotage. I like the way a previous reply put it . If she's with her parents she has support that will hopefully keep her from getting crazy. She has her first independent counseling session today, I don't know if she will tell me about but maybe it'll offer her some clarity. She's stubborn as hell but maybe it'll help.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Ian said:


> Her therapist is her friend, and that's the only person professionally that shes spoken to about the severe depression thoughts she says, my concern was that since they knew each other personally she might not open up.


Given her symptoms, I would recommend advising her to see a doctor, she could have had a mental breakdown. It can happen to anyone after a deep loss. 



> How did you husband handle it? when did you realize what was going on and try to get things back to normal?


Neither of us realised what was going on. Things got back to normal after I eventually went to the doctor. It can take a few months or up to a year, depending on the person. 



Sent from my F3311 using Tapatalk


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ian said:


> Thanks again for the thoughts. I have to agree that not wearing a ring is an F you in my face. Last night when she came home, I wasnt in a good mood and I told her to talk to her parents about her moving in for a little while, thats happening this evening so we will see how it goes. I'm convinced she ISNT cheating or seeing someone else. I am pretty certain though that she really doesnt want to be in this marriage anymore. Its like as soon as she said the words "I need some space, maybe some time apart will do us good" she turned off any possibility other than that. Today however shes really upset, maybe the reality of separation is setting in and she doesnt want to do it.. i dont know. Thanks again everyone. I'll post back when i get a chance.


I've found that the best defense when a spouse says they want out or need space is to immediately agree with them. That what they really want is for you to stroke their ego while they waffle. By you saying "Fine. I won't tie you to me," you're saying that YOU value yourself too much to beg when you shouldn't have to, and the best way to get a woman to want you is to be what people want. In demand. Knowing your worth. Goes back to caveman days when the women would fight to be the one the strong guy picked. 

btw, please use apostrophes in your posts; it's hard to read without punctuation.


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## Ian (Jun 14, 2017)

Sorry about the lack of apostrophes. Everything is going steadily in the wrong direction. I watched a few youtube videos on codependency and toxic relationships. Turns out the wife and I are text book cases. There is something called gas lighting, and the examples given are verbatim phrases she has said to me. So I'm now supportive of the separation while I get my crap together. If anyone here feels like a "pushover" check out codependency. I have basically no hope we will stay together. I asked what ground rules do we have during this "me" time. As in obviously we won't sleep with other people. She didn't like that rule "you never know what might happen." I appreciate the honesty but I pulled all of our pictures off the wall and left her curled up on the recliner crying. I know she is going to regret this, in a few months she will have surely been with at least a few people and still not happy. I can't be expected to put up with that and take her back. I offered unconditional forgiveness without question in case she has already done something. I just can't forgive her if she makes that choice now. I'm thanking God that I'm 31, I feel awful for the couple's that divorce in their 40s. Any advice on moving on?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

She is already sleeping with someone else. Bank on it.

I agree with @turnera. She wants out? Give it to her at lightning speed.

So far, your actions have been that of someone desperate to accommodate your spouse treating you like garbage. Show her you love and respect yourself too much to tolerate remaining in a marriage with someone who shows you so little of either.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Ian said:


> Sorry about the lack of apostrophes. Everything is going steadily in the wrong direction. I watched a few youtube videos on codependency and toxic relationships. Turns out the wife and I are text book cases. There is something called gas lighting, and the examples given are verbatim phrases she has said to me. So I'm now supportive of the separation while I get my crap together. If anyone here feels like a "pushover" check out codependency. I have basically no hope we will stay together. I asked what ground rules do we have during this "me" time. As in obviously we won't sleep with other people. She didn't like that rule "you never know what might happen." I appreciate the honesty but I pulled all of our pictures off the wall and left her curled up on the recliner crying. I know she is going to regret this, in a few months she will have surely been with at least a few people and still not happy. I can't be expected to put up with that and take her back. I offered unconditional forgiveness without question in case she has already done something. I just can't forgive her if she makes that choice now. I'm thanking God that I'm 31, I feel awful for the couple's that divorce in their 40s. Any advice on moving on?


 @Ian, I know you're relatively new here and haven't had much time to read. 

You're preaching to the veritable choir here. Codependency, gas-lighting, PTSD, ADD/ADHD, OCD, NPD, BPD....the list goes on.

TAM is a veritable gold mine of experiences with various disorders.


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## justcallme.Vi (Jun 17, 2017)

Since this is likely from the miscarriage, she needs to see her OBGYN. They are also trained to assist in these matters. If she's shut you out, try convincing her mother-in-law to make an appt.
Angry as you may be right now, I know you want her to get help. An OBGYN may be more helpful than a so-so therapist quick to pile on the anti-depressants.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Ian said:


> Sorry about the lack of apostrophes. Everything is going steadily in the wrong direction. I watched a few youtube videos on codependency and toxic relationships. Turns out the wife and I are text book cases. There is something called gas lighting, and the examples given are verbatim phrases she has said to me. So I'm now supportive of the separation while I get my crap together. If anyone here feels like a "pushover" check out codependency. I have basically no hope we will stay together. I asked what ground rules do we have during this "me" time. As in obviously we won't sleep with other people. She didn't like that rule "you never know what might happen." I appreciate the honesty but I pulled all of our pictures off the wall and left her curled up on the recliner crying. I know she is going to regret this, in a few months she will have surely been with at least a few people and still not happy. I can't be expected to put up with that and take her back. I offered unconditional forgiveness without question in case she has already done something. I just can't forgive her if she makes that choice now. I'm thanking God that I'm 31, I feel awful for the couple's that divorce in their 40s. Any advice on moving on?


Ouch! Sorry Ian! How does she feel about you dating and sleeping with other women? Were you very blunt and clear that you could forgive if she tells you she already cheated but that you will not if she does now? IF not - you need to be perfectly clear - and tell her you will not be in an open marriage. Its either total fidelity - emotional and physical. or divorce. Her choice! Tell her you love her and want to make the marriage work for both of you. And this time of separation is not for her to cheat on you - but to decide if she is in or out of the marriage!! Be blunt and firm - and mean every word you say! Further more follow through with what you tell her you are going to do. 

Good Luck, Ian! I hope she chooses wisely! Either way - you seem to be astute and willing to learn and improve yourself. So go forward - and if she doesn't take advantage of the new and improved you - another very smart and lucky woman will! You are going to be OK, eventually!


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## Ian (Jun 14, 2017)

mary35 said:


> Ian said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry about the lack of apostrophes. Everything is going steadily in the wrong direction. I watched a few youtube videos on codependency and toxic relationships. Turns out the wife and I are text book cases. There is something called gas lighting, and the examples given are verbatim phrases she has said to me. So I'm now supportive of the separation while I get my crap together. If anyone here feels like a "pushover" check out codependency. I have basically no hope we will stay together. I asked what ground rules do we have during this "me" time. As in obviously we won't sleep with other people. She didn't like that rule "you never know what might happen." I appreciate the honesty but I pulled all of our pictures off the wall and left her curled up on the recliner crying. I know she is going to regret this, in a few months she will have surely been with at least a few people and still not happy. I can't be expected to put up with that and take her back. I offered unconditional forgiveness without question in case she has already done something. I just can't forgive her if she makes that choice now. I'm thanking God that I'm 31, I feel awful for the couple's that divorce in their 40s. Any advice on moving on?
> ...


Yeah I was clear that she doesn't even have to tell what she's done. Just that I forgive her and will assume is from her mental state. If it comes out in 3 years that all of this was from an affair so be it. I won't hold it against her. I went out last night and met a few people, I got my ego stroked the best way possible. No lines crossed but you know what I mean. The wife stayed at her parent's house last night and brought the babe over on her way to work. She was in a really good mood, asked me about my night. I told her something's without going into detail. She said she feels a lot better now that I'm supportive of our time apart. She kissed me and said I love you without me nudging her in anyway towards any kind of affection. I'm not sure how to take this. Is it mind games, or maybe she's concerned about what I'm going to do.... I want to remind her of her total lack of commitment to our marriage but I don't want her to associate affection, with me throwing her words in her face. I definitely want this all to work out. I definitely don't want to be the reason it ended for good.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What to do? Go visit a lawyer Monday morning and have him write up a legal separation agreement, with full limits on spending from any bank accounts other than existing bills; a clause about her having to go to in-depth therapy; a clause about ruining reputations (meaning she'd better not be caught doing something wrong); whatever else you can think of. In other words, hit her swift, hit her hard, show her your BACK. Wanna get out of codependency? Show her your back. Let her SEE you moving on and loving your life without her. Wait it out while she gets her **** together but meantime learn to be ok being ALONE. That's the main thing you need to be doing, above all else. The best way to get out of codependency is to be ok being alone - that way, you don't NEED her to choose you for you to be happy; and if she does decide to come back, YOU will have the power. To set the rules.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Your wife may have depression she may have felt you did not give her emotional support but her treatment of you is not acceptable. You need to be careful from here on out to show that you will not tolerate cheating, emotional abuse of you.

Give her a deadline for the break, tell her the rules, e.g. no contact, no dating, etc

Then you go work on yourself, start going to gym, going out, join club, etc. Tell her she has 4, 6, weeks etc and that you yourself are not sure you will want her back at the end of it because she is not committed to the marriage, to work through the problems, etc. Say you are prepared to go to MC for a minimum of 3 times but after you get your freedom, you may like it too much.
If she has cheated, she needs to come clean now, later revelations will blow up the marriage and you will definitely file for divorce. 
Do not ***** foot around this, your wife is not thinking of you or the marriage, only herself it seems.


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## Ian (Jun 14, 2017)

So after two weeks nothing new. She still says there's no one else and I have no reason not to believe her. She has said she's felt this way a while and isn't in love with me anymore. We had a date night two days ago that was fine until we talked about the relationship. I asked how she'd feel if I saw someone else. She said it's fine but I can't cheat on her. I explained that I mean having sex with another woman in our bed. She starts crying and says "I'm just not happy being around you, I'm fine at my parents but when I'm with you, I'm unhappy". So we finished our date calmed down alittle, she wouldn't hold my hand. On the way home I asked her how long I was supposed to keep trying when I get nothing back, zero affection. She apologized crying again, said she's sorry, that she wants to love me again and feels terrible that she doesn't. So anyway, marriage counselor is awful, and can't get the wife to really open. I know my wife wants me to stop trying and just end it, but I won't do it. It's been 4 weeks.. anyway. That's it. Nothing good, nothing new


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If she won't tell you what's wrong, then it's up to you to take the lead and move toward official separation. Let her see you moving on.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Whatever you do, DO NOT end up falling into each other's arms and have unprotected sex with her. Will she be insulted if you reach for a rubber? Yep, but that's on her. DO NOT RISK BRINGING ANOTHER CHILD INTO THIS MESS. Please think this possibility through. If your aren't prepared, the natural thing would be to let nature take its course. Then your problems multiple again.

If I were you, I would screw dating her. I would 180, and serve her with divorce papers. Maybe the shock would wake her up. If it doesn't, I doubt there is anything else you can do to save this. So sorry, it's a terrible shame.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Ian said:


> I know my wife wants me to stop trying and just end it, but I won't do it. It's been 4 weeks.. anyway. That's it. Nothing good, nothing new


Boy, you're frantically doing the "Pick Me!" dance and dancing as fast as you can.

There's no pride or dignity in begging someone to love you.

She's told you how she feels. Find your self respect and graciously *accept* what she's told you. Then,visit a lawyer and protect yourself and find out what your options will be in the likely event of a divorce.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Implement the 180. Don't make excuses about why it's impossible to manage. Do the 180. You will have much greater clarity once you have detached.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Ian said:


> So after two weeks nothing new. She still says there's no one else and I have no reason not to believe her. She has said she's felt this way a while and isn't in love with me anymore. We had a date night two days ago that was fine until we talked about the relationship. I asked how she'd feel if I saw someone else. She said it's fine but I can't cheat on her. I explained that I mean having sex with another woman in our bed. She starts crying and says "I'm just not happy being around you, I'm fine at my parents but when I'm with you, I'm unhappy". So we finished our date calmed down alittle, she wouldn't hold my hand. On the way home I asked her how long I was supposed to keep trying when I get nothing back, zero affection. She apologized crying again, said she's sorry, that she wants to love me again and feels terrible that she doesn't. So anyway, marriage counselor is awful, and can't get the wife to really open. I know my wife wants me to stop trying and just end it, but I won't do it. It's been 4 weeks.. anyway. That's it. Nothing good, nothing new


She wants to do whatever she's doing ( and take her denial of another man with a grain of salt ) but turns on the tears when you suggest being with another woman.

Has she always been this manipulative and have you always succumbed to it?


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