# Implementing 180 During Separation



## bbbb8080

About 7 weeks ago, my wife of 15 years told me that she wanted an "In-House Trial Separation". Although the first month or so was horrible, I have started to accept the fact that we may not come out of this together. That said, for my own conscious, if nothing else, I have decided that I am not willing to walk away from a 15 year marriage after 8 weeks.

Although she denies, I know that my wife is continuing an affair (started before the separation, I became aware, and this is what led to the separation). The basic......this is your fault, you haven't given me enough attention, you don't listen to me, took place. While I do accept a portion of the blame for the relationship getting where it did, infidelity is never the answer.

Although my wife has agreed to counseling, she has not committed to "working" on the relationship at this point. She says she needs her space to figure herself out.

All of the above said, please do not respond with the "leave her now", "run", etc. While she is on the fence, I could leave the marriage right now if I wanted. The choice to not leave the marriage right now is mine. Will I eventually decide I no longer want to try to work it out, am tired of waiting for her to decide, and leave, sure....but that time isn't now. I am comfortable with this decision and even feel empowered knowing I can end it whenever I want.

To my question.........

Can anyone with experience with the 180 technique explain how communication/conversation with spouse should be handled during this time? While I know there is no "one size fits all" answer, this is an area I am struggling with. I have tried being extremely quiet (borderline ignoring), and this didn't seem to feel right. I feel like there needs to be some conversation to keep the relationship alive. Now, I am taking the approach of trying to be my "normal" upbeat self during conversations, while staying away from any discussions surrounding our relationship. This feels a lot better and more effective to me at "developing" our relationship. Essentially, how do I balance: "Only show spouse happiness and contentment","be the type of person your spouse wants to be around", "don't be cold", and "be scarce and short on words".

All other areas of the 180 are being implemented perfectly.....the above is where I am struggling. A quick search shows plenty of "recommendations" from professionals on both sides of the fence, but wanted to check directly with those that have been through it. All feedback is appreciated!


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## EleGirl

could you clarify. Is your wife in an affair right now?


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## bbbb8080

Yes


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## Marc878

bbbb8080 said:


> About 7 weeks ago, my wife of 15 years told me that she wanted an "In-House Trial Separation". Although the first month or so was horrible, I have started to accept the fact that we may not come out of this together. That said, for my own conscious, if nothing else, I have decided that I am not willing to walk away from a 15 year marriage after 8 weeks.
> 
> Although she denies, I know that my wife is continuing an affair (started before the separation, I became aware, and this is what led to the separation). The basic......this is your fault, you haven't given me enough attention, you don't listen to me, took place. While I do accept a portion of the blame for the relationship getting where it did, infidelity is never the answer.
> 
> If she's in an ongoing affair not much else matters. Get your priorities straight. If the other man is married inform his wife. Exposure to try and end the affair is about all you've got. Her affair will trump everything.
> 
> Although my wife has agreed to counseling, she has not committed to "working" on the relationship at this point. She says she needs her space to figure herself out.
> 
> All of the above said, please do not respond with the "leave her now", "run", etc. While she is on the fence, I could leave the marriage right now if I wanted. The choice to not leave the marriage right now is mine. Will I eventually decide I no longer want to try to work it out, am tired of waiting for her to decide, and leave, sure....but that time isn't now. I am comfortable with this decision and even feel empowered knowing I can end it whenever I want.
> 
> To my question.........
> 
> Can anyone with experience with the 180 technique explain how communication/conversation with spouse should be handled during this time? While I know there is no "one size fits all" answer, this is an area I am struggling with. I have tried being extremely quiet (borderline ignoring), and this didn't seem to feel right. I feel like there needs to be some conversation to keep the relationship alive. Now, I am taking the approach of trying to be my "normal" upbeat self during conversations, while staying away from any discussions surrounding our relationship. This feels a lot better and more effective to me at "developing" our relationship. Essentially, how do I balance: "Only show spouse happiness and contentment","be the type of person your spouse wants to be around", "don't be cold", and "be scarce and short on words".
> 
> If she's in an affair this is just a version of the "pick me dance" which will get you nothing but a lowered status. The 180 is used for your detachment and healing not to necessarily get you wife back. Right now you are accepting living in infidelity
> 
> All other areas of the 180 are being implemented perfectly.....the above is where I am struggling. A quick search shows plenty of "recommendations" from professionals on both sides of the fence, but wanted to check directly with those that have been through it. All feedback is appreciated!


Good luck, you'll need it.


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## Diana7

Agreeing to share a house with a spouse who refuses to stop an affair isn't something I would ever agree to. I would say, ok, you are free to carry on the affair but you will have to leave. By agreeing to it you are enabling her behaviour and not standing up for what is right. 
Do you have children?


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## sunsetmist

Your behavior is unlikely to change her mind. If she is in the limerence affair fog, you are a back-up plan. She has chosen an affair, not working on your marriage. Not much else besides the 180 that you can do--that is 'pick me' doesn't work now. Exposure to other man's spouse, families, friends seems to offer some assistance. 

Without knowing more details, there is little else to offer.


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## EleGirl

bbbb8080 said:


> Yes


Ok. 

If you read the purpose of the 180 (link in my signature block below), it's to do while your spouse is actively in an affair. You have to be sure that you tell your wife that until she ends her affair and goes no contact with the guy, that you assume that the marriage is over. That when and if she ends the affair, you will be willing to go to counseling and do everything in your power to fix the marriage.

You should not go to counseling with her until she ends the marriage. All that will happen in counseling is that the counselor will work to get the two of you to divorce. That's what they do in situations like this.

So how do you implement the 180? Exactly as is stated. Having conversations with her is a waste of your time and effort. Instead come up with 3 or 4 pat answers. "Sorry, I'm busy."... is a good one. If she tries to take about anything in your relationship "Have you ended your affair and gone no contact?" If she says no, then follow up with "Let me know when you do. We can talk after you end it."

That's it. You need to show her what life will be like without your love and support. Withdraw from her completely right now. Let her rely completely on this guy.

And you get on with your life. Get busy. Do your hobbies. Go to the gym and work out. Go out with friends. Do things for yourself.

And....

There are 3 books you would benefit from, all 3 written by Dr. Harley.

"Surviving an Affair" this book is for you, so don't let her see you reading it. It gives you the strategy you need. It will tell you the best ways to get her to end her affair. Hint.. it's not by asking her to do it. It talks about Plan A and Plan B. When you read it, keep in mind that you are in Plan B now, which is like the 180. Do the things that books tells you to do, like expose the affair. Is her affair partner married?

After that book, read "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs" in that order. Do the work the books say to do. If she ends the affair and you agree to recover the marriage, then you will know how to do it. If she does not, then you will be better educated in how to keep a marriage going strong for your next relationship.


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## bbbb8080

Yes


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## bbbb8080

Thank you for your feedback. In doing some research, it appears that a lot of professional marriage councilors actually disagree that giving ultimatums has the expected effect. Instead, they actually say that it has the reverse effect. That is, until they chose to stop the affair on their own, reconciliation is impossible because they are not truly vested in the marriage.....but feel forced. The result is that they actually draw closer to the affair partner. What are your thoughts on this?


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## the guy

What you are looking for is "indifference".


But since you are not there yet to have the emotional indifference you are just going to have to act indifferent.


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## bbbb8080

Diana7 said:


> Agreeing to share a house with a spouse who refuses to stop an affair isn't something I would ever agree to. I would say, ok, you are free to carry on the affair but you will have to leave. By agreeing to it you are enabling her behaviour and not standing up for what is right.
> Do you have children?


Yes. Teenage son


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## bbbb8080

the guy said:


> What you are looking for is "indifference".
> 
> 
> But since you are not there yet to have the emotional indifference you are just going to have to act indifferent.


I agree that "Indifference" is what I am looking for. Just not sure exactly what that should look like.......

I know that the silent treatment is not indifferent. This comes across extremely unnatural and forced. To me, indifferent would mean being myself when around her (basic conversation, etc.), but also not brining up the relationship and not planning my schedule around her (going out with friends on my own, planning things on my own, etc.)


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## the guy

Being your self before marriage or after marriage?

Just asking cuz marriage has a way of changing a guy!


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## the guy

I'm thinking being that guy before marriage might show your old lady a confident guy....the one she fell for all those years ago.


Maybe the guy she might lose if she doesn't stop screwing around?


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## the guy

I wonder if your kid knows his mom has a boyfriend?

I ask cuz there's an example we fathers have to show when it comes to relationships.


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## the guy

Since this has been going on for over a couple of months I wonder if she has the same AP since pre separation or is she on to a new AP?


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## Marc878

Your current marriage has ended. Would you marry her again? That's what R is.

Many upfront just want them back. What are you getting back if that were to happen? Better think long term.

IMO you go your own way now and let her completely go. Absence makes the heart grow fonder.

An enabling attitude just makes you look unnattractive.

Strength is attractive. Weakness is not. If you chase they tend to move farther away 

Have you done any exposure? Affairs are fantasy based. Only thrive in secrecy and dark. The truth fixes a lot of things.


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## bbbb8080

the guy said:


> I wonder if your kid knows his mom has a boyfriend?
> 
> I ask cuz there's an example we fathers have to show when it comes to relationships.


Don't think he knows, but not sure it is appropriate to disclose right now either. Of the many people I know that have children and are divorced, it seems as though the kids that are most screwed up are the ones who's parents bash one another. Don't get me wrong, it has crossed my mind to disclose, but my better judgement always steps in and tells me no. 

Different opinion on this? Something I'm overlooking?


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## bbbb8080

.


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## bbbb8080

the guy said:


> Since this has been going on for over a couple of months I wonder if she has the same AP since pre separation or is she on to a new AP?


Think it is the same AP.......would be shocked if someone else. I guess there is no way to know for sure though.


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## bbbb8080

Marc878 said:


> Your current marriage has ended. Would you marry her again? That's what R is.
> 
> Many upfront just want them back. What are you getting back if that were to happen? Better think long term.
> 
> IMO you go your own way now and let her completely go. Absence makes the heart grow fonder.
> 
> An enabling attitude just makes you look unnattractive.
> 
> Strength is attractive. Weakness is not. If you chase they tend to move farther away
> 
> Have you done any exposure? Affairs are fantasy based. Only thrive in secrecy and dark. The truth fixes a lot of things.



Honestly, if my son didn't only have 10mths until he was off to school, we would definitely be in separate residences during this as money is not a restricting issue.

No exposure, but I did reach out to the AP directly as soon as I found out.


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## the guy

No one suggest bashing your kids mom, but it kind sucks that you have not explained the problem in the current family dynamic.
I thinks it's fair to tell a teenage boy that you will not sure his mother with her boyfriend.

But that's just me...I don't even share my lawn mower with the neighbor.


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## bbbb8080

the guy said:


> No one suggest bashing your kids mom, but it kind sucks that you have not explained the problem in the current family dynamic.
> I thinks it's fair to tell a teenage boy that you will not sure his mother with her boyfriend.
> 
> But that's just me...I don't even share my lawn mower with the neighbor.


I hear you. Problem is, spouse denies. Only way I could prove it would be to start sharing the evidence I have to prove it. I just can't help but feel this would be crossing a line I would regret.


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## the guy

Gotta respect your plan....at least you got one.

I'm just think there has to be a time you talk with the boy and let him know what your plan is and why.

Lets face it...bad behavior has consequences...your old lady is going to have to face her son for her actions.

Beside he already knows....that's why he has been acting up...at least around his mom? Maybe you just don't see cuz he thinks you don't know?


But it sounds like you got a time frame when you and the boy come to term with this shyt sandwich.


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## the guy

What was AP reaction?


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## Affaircare

bbbb8080 said:


> Don't think he knows, but not sure it is appropriate to disclose right now either. Of the many people I know that have children and are divorced, it seems as though the kids that are most screwed up are the ones who's parents bash one another. Don't get me wrong, it has crossed my mind to disclose, but my better judgement always steps in and tells me no.
> 
> Different opinion on this? Something I'm overlooking?


Yes sir I have a differing opinion, and I want you to know I am saying that as someone who was once unfaithful and recovered from it. 

Right now your wife is living in a land of fantasy. She has a comfy home, all bills paid, and plenty of money and time to spend on a lover, and what she needs is a big dose of reality. Like the reality that you will no longer foot the bill for her to cheat on you. Or the reality that her actions and choices will harm her relationship with her son—not you telling the truth about her choices!

See your son is not dumb. He knows something bad is going on, and he needs one parent to tell him the truth even if it’s hard to hear. You don’t need to bash her... just be honest and keep the Focus on YOU. Like this:

“Son I am sure you can tell things are tough between your mom and I, so I wanted you to know what we are up against. I found out your mom is seeing someone else and I don’t believe people who are married should have boyfriends. I asked her to stop and she’s decided not to do that, so I’m preparing for the worst.” 

See? That’s not bashing her. That is stating facts in a pretty neutral but honest way and stating what you did and what you believe.

If he asked something like “Why’d mom do that ?” just say “You’ll have to talk to her about that” and let him. He is a member of the family and has the right to know the truth about why his family is falling apart! 

In addition he will learn that he can trust you to tell him the truth even if it’s hard or “not pretty “.


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## EleGirl

bbbb8080 said:


> Thank you for your feedback. In doing some research, it appears that a lot of professional marriage councilors actually disagree that giving ultimatums has the expected effect. Instead, they actually say that it has the reverse effect. That is, until they chose to stop the affair on their own, reconciliation is impossible because they are not truly vested in the marriage.....but feel forced. The result is that they actually draw closer to the affair partner. What are your thoughts on this?


You have completely misunderstood what I said about this.

I did not say to give an ultimatum. I said to state your position which should be that until she stops the affair there is no way to fix your marriage. 

There are many different points of view of how to handle an affair. If you are going to use the 180, then you should use it way it's intended which is what I was talking about. Otherwise just don't bother doing the 180 because it's going to back fire.


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## farsidejunky

Your actions (waiting for her to end her affair without consequence) are subconsciously showing her that she was correct to seek out another partner. One who respects themselves enough to refuse to share their partner. 

Your inaction has probably taken this past the point of no return, and it is likely beyond help.

Unless you are willing to lose your marriage in an attempt to save it, your situation will not improve. 




Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## aine

bbbb8080 said:


> About 7 weeks ago, my wife of 15 years told me that she wanted an "In-House Trial Separation". Although the first month or so was horrible, I have started to accept the fact that we may not come out of this together. That said, for my own conscious, if nothing else, I have decided that I am not willing to walk away from a 15 year marriage after 8 weeks.
> 
> Although she denies, I know that my wife is continuing an affair (started before the separation, I became aware, and this is what led to the separation). The basic......this is your fault, you haven't given me enough attention, you don't listen to me, took place. While I do accept a portion of the blame for the relationship getting where it did, infidelity is never the answer.
> 
> Although my wife has agreed to counseling, she has not committed to "working" on the relationship at this point. She says she needs her space to figure herself out.
> 
> All of the above said, please do not respond with the "leave her now", "run", etc. While she is on the fence, I could leave the marriage right now if I wanted. The choice to not leave the marriage right now is mine. Will I eventually decide I no longer want to try to work it out, am tired of waiting for her to decide, and leave, sure....but that time isn't now. I am comfortable with this decision and even feel empowered knowing I can end it whenever I want.
> 
> To my question.........
> 
> Can anyone with experience with the 180 technique explain how communication/conversation with spouse should be handled during this time? While I know there is no "one size fits all" answer, this is an area I am struggling with. I have tried being extremely quiet (borderline ignoring), and this didn't seem to feel right. I feel like there needs to be some conversation to keep the relationship alive. Now, I am taking the approach of trying to be my "normal" upbeat self during conversations, while staying away from any discussions surrounding our relationship. This feels a lot better and more effective to me at "developing" our relationship. Essentially, how do I balance: "Only show spouse happiness and contentment","be the type of person your spouse wants to be around", "don't be cold", and "be scarce and short on words".
> 
> All other areas of the 180 are being implemented perfectly.....the above is where I am struggling. A quick search shows plenty of "recommendations" from professionals on both sides of the fence, but wanted to check directly with those that have been through it. All feedback is appreciated!


Why are you playing a 'pick me' dance? Why should anything change about your relationship with your wife when she has you and the OM, she is having her cake and eating it. You are being weak and she's got you where she wants you, acquiescent and giving into her way. She will do her test run with the OM and make her choice. If she chooses him, you lose, if she chooses you, you lose as you become her sloppy seconds and will set your self up for a lifetime of pain. 

You need to be ready to lose this marriage to save it, go scorched earth on her

1. Go see a lawyer and see what your rights are
2. If you have kids, protect them
3. Expose her and her OM to your family, her family, let them feel the heat of their shame
4. Ask her to leave the house- if kids old enough tell them
5. If the affair is at their workplace expose to HR
6. Show her you mean business, you can do this, stand up and earn some respect. Right now she sees you as a doormat whom she can walk all over.

Her excuse you didn't give her enough attention, why to fall for that, a grown ass woman comes to you and tells you straight up what is happening, they do not step outside the marriage. Burst the snowflake's bubble and let the chips fall where they may.

Doing the 180 requires no conversation unless it is administrative, no interaction, no explanations of your whereabouts, nothing. You are not supposed to be 'keeping the relationship alive' you are supposed to be demonstrating that you won't stand for this treatment and act accordingly, to do anything else is putting a nail in the coffin of the marriage.


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## farsidejunky

Please read this repeatedly until it sinks in.


EleGirl said:


> You have completely misunderstood what I said about this.
> 
> I did not say to give an ultimatum. I said to state your position which should be that until she stops the affair there is no way to fix your marriage.
> 
> There are many different points of view of how to handle an affair. If you are going to use the 180, then you should use it way it's intended which is what I was talking about. Otherwise just don't bother doing the 180 because it's going to back fire.


An ultimatum is telling her what she will do.

A boundary is telling her what you will not do. 

"Wife, the only thing worse than divorce is sharing you with another man. Since you continue to do so, you leave me with no other choice than to pursue divorce, and every day you continue on your current course makes it harder to alter mine."

See how that works? She has the option to do exactly as she chooses. You are telling her what you will not tolerate.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## aine

bbbb8080 said:


> I hear you. Problem is, spouse denies. Only way I could prove it would be to start sharing the evidence I have to prove it. I just can't help but feel this would be crossing a line I would regret.


So when your son, who is almost a man has a girlfriend or wife who steps out on him, you are teaching him how to handle it all. You think your son doesn't know already? He probably knows more than you think. What life lessons are you teaching, are you protecting your wife or your ego?


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## Marc878

bbbb8080 said:


> Honestly, if my son didn't only have 10mths until he was off to school, we would definitely be in separate residences during this as money is not a restricting issue.
> 
> *No exposure, but I did reach out to the AP directly as soon as I found out*.


Didn't do any good did it. It never does. He's just glad you didn't expose. You are now enabling it further. 

Better wake up


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## BluesPower

I am going to sum some of this advice that you have received up for you, so maybe it will become more clear. 

So far one of the best posts is from @anne. She summed it up pretty well and she I right. 

What you have to understand is that the experts that you refer to in your first post are wrong. I don't know what site or book you got your expert advice from but maybe you missed something or misunderstood something or it is just wrong. 

Now, several years ago there was a book and a school of thought that advocated just letting your wayward spouse have their affair and see if they come back and you can have your marriage again. 

That school of thought has been debunked and it was stupid to start off with.

Next I don't know what income level you are in and it really does not matter. I also don't know who makes or has most of the money in your marriage but none of that matters. 

Your self respect should have NO DOLLAR figure attached, ever. 

Your son, odds are that he knows something is up whether he knows HIS MOM is being a POS or not. 

What you think you are doing is protecting him, but you are not. What you are actually teaching him is that dad was a willing ****, and a weak man, so that must be the way that I should be. Because, he will at some point find out that you allowed your wife, his mom, to have an affair and you did not divorce her. 

So let all of that sink in for a second. 

Now understand that you are doing everything wrong. 

This is how it works. When you find out your spouse is having an affair, you file for divorce first. Then you confront them and hand them a copy of the divorce papers. 

Filing first allows you to show your WW that you will not live in infidelity, you will not accept this behavior in a marriage. 

Now your evidence, why is it that you don't want her to know where it came from? If it is shady or questionable then you don't have to tell her where you got the evidence. But there has got to be a really good not to show her the evidence. 

However, when you hand her divorce papers, you don't have to tell her where the evidence came from or show it to her. Another option is to hire a PI and get evidence that is clean and valid in court. 

So the most important thing that you need to do is expose the affair to everyone, EVERYONE. 

First and for most, if her AP is married, you need to let the other betrayed spouse know. Give them what evidence you can. But expose. 

Then you expose to everyone and ask her to leave the house. And you tell your son what is going on. 

You are probably think all of this will push your wife away. The thing you have to understand is that she is already gone and you are enabling her affair and fantasy land. 

By taking the above steps you may lose you wife, but you will not look like a weak sissy either. The other possibility is that she will wake up because you are being a strong man for a change instead of a weakling. 

And talking to the guy that is screwing your wife, is about the weakest move you could have possibly made. 

So keep posting and we will help you through this. 

If you want to have a chance at saving your marriage, even a chance, you need to wake up and listen to what we are saying....


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## manfromlamancha

You need to be clear (as others have already told you) about some things before anyone can answer your question on how to implement the 180 in-house.

First, having an affair is completely on her. You did not cause this. All marriages have ups and downs and if there was a problem, she should have spoken with you first and if that did not work, she should have got a divorce before stepping out. Of course she will try and blame you (cheaters 101).

You will not achieve anything by being nice or even normal with her. You have already pushed her further into the affair by not informing the other spouse, not exposing, not giving her any consequences for her actions etc. She (and the AP) now sees you as a weak and certainly not someone worth coming back to. All the separation means is she gets all the creature comforts of her home and your support while continuing to test drive this POSOM or even others too. This arrangement will NEVER get her back and WILL make you look weak and become weaker.

Informing the other spouse is the right thing to do - both, morally and tactically. She needs to know (just as you would if the shoe was on the other foot) and she will be an ally in putting an end to this. Right now neither of the cheaters are facing any consequences or resistance of any kind.

You need to continue to be a role model to your son and help him develop the right type of moral compass and strength. You need to tell him a sanitised version of what happened and you need to act in a decisive and strong manner so that he too learns not take any **** in future.

Your WW needs to understand that you will not do the pick me dance and will not tolerate her cheating behaviour. She is free to go with whoever she wants but not as your wife and living in your house with your support. File for divorce even if you think she might come back (you can always stop it at the last minute).

If you do file and properly distance yourself from her, you need to know the difference between regret and true remorse from her if she does come crying back.

Now against this backdrop, the 180 is for you to heal your own mind and become well - not to make her face consequences or get her back and should become easy to implement with this frame of mind.


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## manfromlamancha

On a separate note, how did you find out? What evidence do you have? Who all knows about what happened? Does she have friends or family that enabled this cheating or even support her in it? What exactly happened when you confronted ? What happened when you "reached out" to the AP?


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Well, I may be a bit over the top, but if I were in your shoes, which I have been, I favor the “shock and awe” approach. If you want to save your marriage, EXPOSURE. Exposure is your best weapon. Expose to your family, friends,and discuss with your son that mom has a boyfriend.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Next 180. Once you expose she will absolutely go bat**** crazy. She will be angry at you initially until the shock wears off and she will come to the realization she brought it on herself if she has a conscience.

I exposed to family, friends, put a post on Facebook, FWW went off. That got me revved up so I took out marital bed to our farm, built a bonfire, tossed the heirloom bed into the fire, too video, and texted it to her. I let her know her actions were unacceptable. But I must say, initially I tried to be the nice guy when I had my initial suspicions. The good people on here gave me some much needed whacks to the head, and I reversed course and unleashed the beast inside of me. My FWW had never seen that side of me before. Implemented 180 for six weeks, and I am now approaching three years of r.

Point I am making is you must show nothing but strength. Women respect strength. I wish you luck sir. Listen to the advice of those on this site.


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## VermiciousKnid

I honestly don't believe this OP is going to listen to or act on any of this advice. This is common in my profession. We give the absolute best advice we can based on our decades of experience and many times our clients do their own thing anyway and it never works out in their favor. It used to really frustrate me but now I let it go and get on with my life. You can lead a horse to water...


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## bbbb8080

manfromlamancha said:


> On a separate note, how did you find out? What evidence do you have? Who all knows about what happened? Does she have friends or family that enabled this cheating or even support her in it? What exactly happened when you confronted ? What happened when you "reached out" to the AP?


1. Text messages showing unfaithful/inappropriate conversation is how I found out
2. Proof it is continuing, via billing. That is, she has not been where she said she was on multiple nights, and at hotels instead.

No friends of hers, that I know of, support these actions.

When I confronted, after initial acknowledgment of his actions, he pretty much hid and avoided me like the plague. Just an FYI, this is not somebody I know/knew. Could take it a step further by notifying his friends/family, but have not at this point.


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## bbbb8080

One additional fact that I want y'all to consider in giving your advice. Several years back, I had my own bout with infidelity. While it was never fully exposed, I did many of the things cheaters do (blame on relationship, etc.). This is the biggest regret of my life.

We never really worked through the issues at that time, and it was essentially brushed under the rug for years until this came up. I know that the past has "hardened" my wife and led to the issues we are now facing.

With the above said, how does this impact your advice? I know I was wrong, had it coming, etc., so no need to tell me that. But, given the complete context of this, what are your thoughts on how I should proceed? As you can imagine, this knowledge of the "past" is impacting the way that I am handling the current situation.


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## BluesPower

bbbb8080 said:


> One additional fact that I want y'all to consider in giving your advice. Several years back, I had my own bout with infidelity. While it was never fully exposed, I did many of the things cheaters do (blame on relationship, etc.). This is the biggest regret of my life.
> 
> We never really worked through the issues at that time, and it was essentially brushed under the rug for years until this came up. I know that the past has "hardened" my wife and led to the issues we are now facing.
> 
> With the above said, how does this impact your advice? I know I was wrong, had it coming, etc., so no need to tell me that. But, given the complete context of this, what are your thoughts on how I should proceed? As you can imagine, this knowledge of the "past" is impacting the way that I am handling the current situation.


It does not change any single bit of advice in any way. Yes you were at that time a POS. 

If she wanted to she could have divorced you then. And she maybe should have. 

That does not change anything that is going on now or how you need to handle any of it. 

If she wanted out, she should have divorced. It does not give her the right to have a revenge affair. 

It also does not give you the right to be a weak man and not protect your child and your marriage. 

You were wrong, and she IS wrong. 

If you want your marriage, then you have to be willing to lose it. You have to be strong. 

It may be better that you two divorce no matter how much it will cost. Happiness has no cost, self respect has no price tag. You either have it or you don't. 

What you have been advised to do, is what you need to do. And DON'T ****ING contact the OM again. 

When him and your wife are screwing, they are laughing at you for being such a weak chump. 

Contact his wife or GF and expose to them... 

Now is the time for swift decisive action. 

Think about what you are currently teaching your son. He will at some point find out what is going on. 

How do you want him to look at you? Do you want him to look at you as a strong decisive man? Or do you want him to look at you like a weak **** that is paralyzed by fear and weakness????


----------



## BigToe

While I don't agree with much of the black-and-white approach that has been suggested, I must say that I have never understood the concept of an in-house separation. Communication is a pillar and requirement for a healthy relationship of any kind but particularly marriage. The idea of being separated, non-communicative, but under the same roof is simply illogical and non-productive. Rebuilding a relationship can only be done with communication, not isolation. Sometimes people in a healthy relationship need a few hours, a day or two at most, to clear their mind and get their thoughts together when a major issue comes up. But weeks, months? No. If your marriage were really in the forefront of her mind right now she would be communicating with you about it, not isolating herself from you.

You can’t fix your marriage without your wife’s participation. Assuming you are correct and her affair continues, you simply don’t have her attention and can’t work on your marriage while she’s distracted by another man. By living with in-house separation you are essentially endorsing her behavior. The other guy is not going to stop the affair as long as your wife wants to continue it. The fact that you know about the affair and she still wants to continue it under those circumstances only makes it easier for him.

I’m not a proponent of contacting the other man’s wife/girlfriend because it does nothing to change your situation. It provides some satisfaction in knowing you caused some disruption in the other persons life, but it does nothing to fix YOUR marriage. If not this current guy, it would be another one. And even if exposure stops this current man from continuing the affair it doesn’t stop your wife developing one with someone else. For you, the problem is your wife wanting relations with another man, not another man wanting relations with your wife.

The problem I have with the “180” is that it’s a mind game. It’s great advice for someone that discovers their partner in an affair and wants to end the marriage, like SCUBASTEVE, but not for someone like you that wants to try to recover from the affair. That can only happen by open, honest, and deep communication. The “180” relies on “shocking” your partner with the idea you are bigger than the affair, can move on from it quickly, and are ready to move on with your life either alone or to find your own new relationship. None of that seems to be where you are.
My advice is to forget the mind games. Tell your wife you want to talk. Give her the evidence you have that her affair continues and tell her to stop lying to you. Tell her you love her and want to make your marriage work. Tell her what YOU need to make that happen. Ask her what SHE needs to make that happen. If she cannot give you what you need to rebuild the marriage, it is time for you to recognize that the relationship is irreconcilable at this point and you should act accordingly.

I know 15 years is a long time to be with someone and you want to make the marriage work. Unfortunately you can’t force someone to love you, they have to want that on their own.


----------



## Lostinthought61

you sound like a man in desperation and not in control, and i have a sense your wife knows that...if i were you i would open a dating app in front of her and sign up and watch what she does...if she starts to attack you about doing that while your supposedly trying to work on your marriage then tell her why should you when she is sleeping around. but if she says nothing then you pretty much know that she does not care.


----------



## manfromlamancha

bbbb8080 said:


> One additional fact that I want y'all to consider in giving your advice. Several years back, I had my own bout with infidelity. While it was never fully exposed, I did many of the things cheaters do (blame on relationship, etc.). This is the biggest regret of my life.
> 
> We never really worked through the issues at that time, and it was essentially brushed under the rug for years until this came up. I know that the past has "hardened" my wife and led to the issues we are now facing.
> 
> With the above said, how does this impact your advice? I know I was wrong, had it coming, etc., so no need to tell me that. But, given the complete context of this, what are your thoughts on how I should proceed? As you can imagine, this knowledge of the "past" is impacting the way that I am handling the current situation.


OK lets address your infidelity here first. How long did it last ? How did it end ? Was it discovered or did you come clean and if so, why? Who was the AP ?

It should have been dealt with properly and maybe the two of you should have split up then - but it sounds like this did not happen.

But ...

Two wrongs do not make a right - there is no justification for her cheating as I have said before - the right thing to do would have been to talk to you first and divorce if nothing came of it. So she is still very much in the wrong and yes you should expose to the POSOM's family and friends but really his wife or other half.

You should also when informing your son, come clean on your own situation but make sure that he walks away understanding that it is never right to cheat and cheating should never be rugswept/accepted.

It sounds like your wife is done with you and that maybe a good thing all round. However, do not allow her to walk all over you. Get the divorce underway asap and then do the 180. Once everything is exposed I would be interested to know if she still wants an in-house separation.


----------



## bbbb8080

BigToe said:


> While I don't agree with much of the black-and-white approach that has been suggested, I must say that I have never understood the concept of an in-house separation. Communication is a pillar and requirement for a healthy relationship of any kind but particularly marriage. The idea of being separated, non-communicative, but under the same roof is simply illogical and non-productive. Rebuilding a relationship can only be done with communication, not isolation. Sometimes people in a healthy relationship need a few hours, a day or two at most, to clear their mind and get their thoughts together when a major issue comes up. But weeks, months? No. If your marriage were really in the forefront of her mind right now she would be communicating with you about it, not isolating herself from you.
> 
> You can’t fix your marriage without your wife’s participation. Assuming you are correct and her affair continues, you simply don’t have her attention and can’t work on your marriage while she’s distracted by another man. By living with in-house separation you are essentially endorsing her behavior. The other guy is not going to stop the affair as long as your wife wants to continue it. The fact that you know about the affair and she still wants to continue it under those circumstances only makes it easier for him.
> 
> I’m not a proponent of contacting the other man’s wife/girlfriend because it does nothing to change your situation. It provides some satisfaction in knowing you caused some disruption in the other persons life, but it does nothing to fix YOUR marriage. If not this current guy, it would be another one. And even if exposure stops this current man from continuing the affair it doesn’t stop your wife developing one with someone else. For you, the problem is your wife wanting relations with another man, not another man wanting relations with your wife.
> 
> The problem I have with the “180” is that it’s a mind game. It’s great advice for someone that discovers their partner in an affair and wants to end the marriage, like SCUBASTEVE, but not for someone like you that wants to try to recover from the affair. That can only happen by open, honest, and deep communication. The “180” relies on “shocking” your partner with the idea you are bigger than the affair, can move on from it quickly, and are ready to move on with your life either alone or to find your own new relationship. None of that seems to be where you are.
> My advice is to forget the mind games. Tell your wife you want to talk. Give her the evidence you have that her affair continues and tell her to stop lying to you. Tell her you love her and want to make your marriage work. Tell her what YOU need to make that happen. Ask her what SHE needs to make that happen. If she cannot give you what you need to rebuild the marriage, it is time for you to recognize that the relationship is irreconcilable at this point and you should act accordingly.
> 
> I know 15 years is a long time to be with someone and you want to make the marriage work. Unfortunately you can’t force someone to love you, they have to want that on their own.


Although the rest of this message board will prob come after me for this, I tend to agree with your perspective more than the other posters. Being that I value your advice, I would love to get further feedback. Here is an outline of the current situation:

1. At the time I found the incriminating emails, I confronted my wife. She basically said she wanted a break from the marriage in which she could "realize" herself and what she wants. The only alternative to a "separation" for her was a divorce.

2. Not wanting a divorce (as explained in my original post), I agreed to the separation but informed her that I would not be comfortable with her seeing other people. She listened, but ultimately said that while she would take that into consideration, she was not willing to have me tell her what she could and couldn't do during this time of separation (hostility from feeling "controlled" throughout the marriage - not violent control, but emotional). Again, the alternative was divorce. I agreed, not from a position of weakness, but from the standpoint that my ultimate goal is to give the marriage the best chance possible of survival.

3. I have since became aware that the affair has continued (through billing records in her name that I gained access to....not shared accounts). While I have told her that I feel like an affair is continuing, to show her evidence would also come across as a direct breach of her personal privacy.

4. My personal counselor has told me that, in his mind, the best thing I can do if I truly want to save the marriage is to wait it out and work on myself (prepare for the worse). He says that he would not make her aware of the knowledge I have because of how it was obtained....thinks it will hurt more than it would help. My councilor feels that given the current scenario and our past, I am best to work on my personal relationship/communication with my wife, with the idea that the affair won't last (as most don't), and my wife may recognize that she is not willing to give up the 15+ years and the "breaking up" of our family. Or, through our relationship building, realize she truly wants to continue the marriage. He also acknowledges that this may not be the result, but she may wish to continue the other relationship. Again, he is not advocating this position in normal circumstances, but given our past, this is what he feels is the best option if ultimate goal is a chance at reconciliation. Worst case, it doesn't work out and I am better prepared to move on with my life.

5. Current stance of wife is that she would like to continue being separated as she is not yet ready to work on the marriage. Alternative to the current separation is divorce.

While I can see where people stating this is a "weak" stance are coming from, I am not concerned with looking weak. My goal is to save the marriage, or at least give it the best chance to survive. I just want to give my marriage the best chance at survival before I call it quits. Ultimately, if she doesn't come around to wanting to "work" on the marriage, I can ask for divorce whenever I want. I am comfortable with waiting assuming I can accept that it gives me the best chance at reconciliation. At this point, I am paying a professional (the counselor), and in his view (knowing the totality of the situation, our past, her current feelings and reasoning for these feelings, etc) this the best option.

What are your thoughts?


----------



## MovingForward

Marc878 said:


> Good luck, you'll need it.


THIS!!!

Expose, file and get out with the best settlement you can, timing is everything and affair clouds judgement, she might let you get away with much more so she can be with the AP without guilt or she may be blindsided allowing you time to get ahead.

Do not waste anymore time, i did this and still regret it at times


----------



## BluesPower

bbbb8080 said:


> Although the rest of this message board will prob come after me for this, I tend to agree with your perspective more than the other posters. Being that I value your advice, I would love to get further feedback. Here is an outline of the current situation:
> 
> 1. At the time I found the incriminating emails, I confronted my wife. She basically said she wanted a break from the marriage in which she could "realize" herself and what she wants. The only alternative to a "separation" for her was a divorce.
> 
> 2. Not wanting a divorce (as explained in my original post), I agreed to the separation but informed her that I would not be comfortable with her seeing other people. She listened, but ultimately said that while she would take that into consideration, she was not willing to have me tell her what she could and couldn't do during this time of separation (hostility from feeling "controlled" throughout the marriage - not violent control, but emotional). Again, the alternative was divorce. I agreed, not from a position of weakness, but from the standpoint that my ultimate goal is to give the marriage the best chance possible of survival.
> 
> 3. I have since became aware that the affair has continued (through billing records in her name that I gained access to....not shared accounts). While I have told her that I feel like an affair is continuing, to show her evidence would also come across as a direct breach of her personal privacy.
> 
> 4. My personal counselor has told me that, in his mind, the best thing I can do if I truly want to save the marriage is to wait it out and work on myself (prepare for the worse). He says that he would not make her aware of the knowledge I have because of how it was obtained....thinks it will hurt more than it would help. My councilor feels that given the current scenario and our past, I am best to work on my personal relationship/communication with my wife, with the idea that the affair won't last (as most don't), and my wife may recognize that she is not willing to give up the 15+ years and the "breaking up" of our family. Or, through our relationship building, realize she truly wants to continue the marriage. He also acknowledges that this may not be the result, but she may wish to continue the other relationship. Again, he is not advocating this position in normal circumstances, but given our past, this is what he feels is the best option if ultimate goal is a chance at reconciliation. Worst case, it doesn't work out and I am better prepared to move on with my life.
> 
> 5. Current stance of wife is that she would like to continue being separated as she is not yet ready to work on the marriage. Alternative to the current separation is divorce.
> 
> While I can see where people stating this is a "weak" stance are coming from, I am not concerned with looking weak. My goal is to save the marriage, or at least give it the best chance to survive. I just want to give my marriage the best chance at survival before I call it quits. Ultimately, if she doesn't come around to wanting to "work" on the marriage, I can ask for divorce whenever I want. I am comfortable with waiting assuming I can accept that it gives me the best chance at reconciliation. At this point, I am paying a professional (the counselor), and in his view (knowing the totality of the situation, our past, her current feelings and reasoning for these feelings, etc) this the best option.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


Our thought are that almost everyone always disagrees with Toe about everything he writes. 

You should not only be concerned with looking weak, you should be concerned about being weak, which is what you are doing. 

If you have not figured that out yet, understand this... Women, all woman, despise weak men. They may not say it out loud, but they despise them. 

The advice we are giving you is to 1) have a chance to save your marriage, and 2) GET YOU out of infidelity...

The excuses that you make for not acting and not exposing and not filing for divorce are make it a certainty that your marriage will not survive...

It may not anyway, but this is the only chance you have...

And all the other drivel from your counselor who is a moron, and part of the school of thought that I warned you about. 

She wanted to realize herself so she could screw her AP without your interference. 

Honestly, how in gods name can you think this is the right thing to do.


----------



## MovingForward

bbbb8080 said:


> Although the rest of this message board will prob come after me for this, I tend to agree with your perspective more than the other posters. Being that I value your advice, I would love to get further feedback. Here is an outline of the current situation:
> 
> 1. At the time I found the incriminating emails, I confronted my wife. She basically said she wanted a break from the marriage in which she could "realize" herself and what she wants. The only alternative to a "separation" for her was a divorce.
> 
> 2. Not wanting a divorce (as explained in my original post), I agreed to the separation but informed her that I would not be comfortable with her seeing other people. She listened, but ultimately said that while she would take that into consideration, she was not willing to have me tell her what she could and couldn't do during this time of separation (hostility from feeling "controlled" throughout the marriage - not violent control, but emotional). Again, the alternative was divorce. I agreed, not from a position of weakness, but from the standpoint that my ultimate goal is to give the marriage the best chance possible of survival.
> 
> 3. I have since became aware that the affair has continued (through billing records in her name that I gained access to....not shared accounts). While I have told her that I feel like an affair is continuing, to show her evidence would also come across as a direct breach of her personal privacy.
> 
> 4. My personal counselor has told me that, in his mind, the best thing I can do if I truly want to save the marriage is to wait it out and work on myself (prepare for the worse). He says that he would not make her aware of the knowledge I have because of how it was obtained....thinks it will hurt more than it would help. My councilor feels that given the current scenario and our past, I am best to work on my personal relationship/communication with my wife, with the idea that the affair won't last (as most don't), and my wife may recognize that she is not willing to give up the 15+ years and the "breaking up" of our family. Or, through our relationship building, realize she truly wants to continue the marriage. He also acknowledges that this may not be the result, but she may wish to continue the other relationship. Again, he is not advocating this position in normal circumstances, but given our past, this is what he feels is the best option if ultimate goal is a chance at reconciliation. Worst case, it doesn't work out and I am better prepared to move on with my life.
> 
> 5. Current stance of wife is that she would like to continue being separated as she is not yet ready to work on the marriage. Alternative to the current separation is divorce.
> 
> While I can see where people stating this is a "weak" stance are coming from, I am not concerned with looking weak. My goal is to save the marriage, or at least give it the best chance to survive. I just want to give my marriage the best chance at survival before I call it quits. Ultimately, if she doesn't come around to wanting to "work" on the marriage, I can ask for divorce whenever I want. I am comfortable with waiting assuming I can accept that it gives me the best chance at reconciliation. At this point, I am paying a professional (the counselor), and in his view (knowing the totality of the situation, our past, her current feelings and reasoning for these feelings, etc) this the best option.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


Looking weak also makes you much less likely to save the marriage, it is completely counter intuitive. Work on getting your self respect back.

Figure out legalities and financials, so whatever you can to make sure you are in a good position financially and legally and then move forward with Divorce, your marriage ended the moment another mans **** went in her, it is already over so complete the paperwork and make it official if you get divorced and protect yourself and you so choose you can start a new relationship with her not that i would recommend it though since there are any many better people out there who do not treat people like this.

One final note, your counselor sounds like an idiot and clearly has no experience with this, read through all the posts and see what happens to the guys who wait on the sideline for there wife to come back while she is screwing someone else, it never never never ends well.

The men who decide they wont be treated like ****, who have a plan and move forward with it all end up well, often the WW wants to come back but they are too busy with there new life to care and realize she was not that great anyway


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

You're looking at the 180 as a way to 'win' her back. That never works. You do the 180 as way to detach from her so you can move on with your life often times without her. Do what you want to do, you don't answer to her anymore. 

Honestly, all you should be talking with her about is the kids and finances. Everything else is relationship stuff and guess what, brutal as it may seem, you don't have a marriage anymore.

Problem is you aren't willing to let it go even though you already know its gone. The only way you get out of this with your balls in place is if you make the decision that you are worth more than being her cuckhold. Be proactive. Get a divorce lawyer if you don't have one already. Ask her to pack her stuff and leave because guess what the 180 is hard especially when you are still in damage control mode, its far easier when that person is gone.

Sorry, there is no answer her you will like, because the answer you don't want to accept is the only option. Take it and you will never regret it.


----------



## MovingForward

BluesPower said:


> I am going to sum some of this advice that you have received up for you, so maybe it will become more clear.
> 
> So far one of the best posts is from @anne. She summed it up pretty well and she I right.
> 
> What you have to understand is that the experts that you refer to in your first post are wrong. I don't know what site or book you got your expert advice from but maybe you missed something or misunderstood something or it is just wrong.
> 
> Now, several years ago there was a book and a school of thought that advocated just letting your wayward spouse have their affair and see if they come back and you can have your marriage again.
> 
> That school of thought has been debunked and it was stupid to start off with.
> 
> Next I don't know what income level you are in and it really does not matter. I also don't know who makes or has most of the money in your marriage but none of that matters.
> 
> Your self respect should have NO DOLLAR figure attached, ever.
> 
> Your son, odds are that he knows something is up whether he knows HIS MOM is being a POS or not.
> 
> What you think you are doing is protecting him, but you are not. What you are actually teaching him is that dad was a willing ****, and a weak man, so that must be the way that I should be. Because, he will at some point find out that you allowed your wife, his mom, to have an affair and you did not divorce her.
> 
> So let all of that sink in for a second.
> 
> Now understand that you are doing everything wrong.
> 
> This is how it works. When you find out your spouse is having an affair, you file for divorce first. Then you confront them and hand them a copy of the divorce papers.
> 
> Filing first allows you to show your WW that you will not live in infidelity, you will not accept this behavior in a marriage.
> 
> Now your evidence, why is it that you don't want her to know where it came from? If it is shady or questionable then you don't have to tell her where you got the evidence. But there has got to be a really good not to show her the evidence.
> 
> However, when you hand her divorce papers, you don't have to tell her where the evidence came from or show it to her. Another option is to hire a PI and get evidence that is clean and valid in court.
> 
> So the most important thing that you need to do is expose the affair to everyone, EVERYONE.
> 
> First and for most, if her AP is married, you need to let the other betrayed spouse know. Give them what evidence you can. But expose.
> 
> Then you expose to everyone and ask her to leave the house. And you tell your son what is going on.
> 
> You are probably think all of this will push your wife away. The thing you have to understand is that she is already gone and you are enabling her affair and fantasy land.
> 
> By taking the above steps you may lose you wife, but you will not look like a weak sissy either. The other possibility is that she will wake up because you are being a strong man for a change instead of a weakling.
> 
> And talking to the guy that is screwing your wife, is about the weakest move you could have possibly made.
> 
> So keep posting and we will help you through this.
> 
> If you want to have a chance at saving your marriage, even a chance, you need to wake up and listen to what we are saying....


So much good advise on all these posts, you just need to put it in action. You have all the information you need.

A lot of people posting have had or seem similar circumstances and know how it ends. 

I just hate to see people make these mistakes if it is avoidable


----------



## Chaparral

Actually the 180 does often work to win a wayward wife back. 

For an example. Go out and buy new clothes. New haircut. Go to the gym often. Go out dressed to kill with a tiny bit of cologne. Never tell her where you're going. She needs to think you’re over her and doing great. The most important parts of the 180 are the details. Like showing no concern for her, doing nothing for her and especially being cheerful no matter how hard. Never bring up the relationship. If she wants to talk about while the affair is going on just listen but don’t participate. Listen for a short while and then announce you have someplace to be.

As shown over many years, what your trying to do has never worked. The upside is you will end up losing a cheating wife anyway.


----------



## BigToe

Given that you are willing to "wait it out" I think your counselors advice makes sense. Your strategy is hoping she will come to her senses before your patience wears out. With that in mind I don't think non-communication, the 180 approach, is the answer. I think that would embolden her to believe that you don't care either and she is justified in continuing the affair. In my mind, you need to communicate as much as you can in the normal daily sense and reiterate that you love her when appropriate. Kill her with kindness, as the saying goes. At least, if the marriage does end you know that you have done everything you could to make it known you wanted it to succeed.

I wish you the best of luck and hope she does see how much you care for her.


----------



## manfromlamancha

bbbb8080 said:


> Although the rest of this message board will prob come after me for this, I tend to agree with your perspective more than the other posters. Being that I value your advice, I would love to get further feedback. Here is an outline of the current situation:
> 
> 1. At the time I found the incriminating emails, I confronted my wife. She basically said she wanted a break from the marriage in which she could "realize" herself and what she wants. The only alternative to a "separation" for her was a divorce.
> 
> 2. Not wanting a divorce (as explained in my original post), I agreed to the separation but informed her that I would not be comfortable with her seeing other people. She listened, but ultimately said that while she would take that into consideration, she was not willing to have me tell her what she could and couldn't do during this time of separation (hostility from feeling "controlled" throughout the marriage - not violent control, but emotional). Again, the alternative was divorce. I agreed, not from a position of weakness, but from the standpoint that my ultimate goal is to give the marriage the best chance possible of survival.
> 
> 3. I have since became aware that the affair has continued (through billing records in her name that I gained access to....not shared accounts). While I have told her that I feel like an affair is continuing, to show her evidence would also come across as a direct breach of her personal privacy.
> 
> 4. My personal counselor has told me that, in his mind, the best thing I can do if I truly want to save the marriage is to wait it out and work on myself (prepare for the worse). He says that he would not make her aware of the knowledge I have because of how it was obtained....thinks it will hurt more than it would help. My councilor feels that given the current scenario and our past, I am best to work on my personal relationship/communication with my wife, with the idea that the affair won't last (as most don't), and my wife may recognize that she is not willing to give up the 15+ years and the "breaking up" of our family. Or, through our relationship building, realize she truly wants to continue the marriage. He also acknowledges that this may not be the result, but she may wish to continue the other relationship. Again, he is not advocating this position in normal circumstances, but given our past, this is what he feels is the best option if ultimate goal is a chance at reconciliation. Worst case, it doesn't work out and I am better prepared to move on with my life.
> 
> 5. Current stance of wife is that she would like to continue being separated as she is not yet ready to work on the marriage. Alternative to the current separation is divorce.
> 
> While I can see where people stating this is a "weak" stance are coming from, I am not concerned with looking weak. My goal is to save the marriage, or at least give it the best chance to survive. I just want to give my marriage the best chance at survival before I call it quits. Ultimately, if she doesn't come around to wanting to "work" on the marriage, I can ask for divorce whenever I want. I am comfortable with waiting assuming I can accept that it gives me the best chance at reconciliation. At this point, I am paying a professional (the counselor), and in his view (knowing the totality of the situation, our past, her current feelings and reasoning for these feelings, etc) this the best option.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


I can GUARANTEE that you are not going to "win" her back this way! The bulk of the advice you are being given is based on years of experience and is completely contrary to this lone voice you are listening to. If you want to truly save the marriage, you have to be willing to lose it first. Also you need to see that she is playing you and has no reason to change anything. Even if she appears to come back to you it will be on her terms which is paramount to letting her **** around whenever she wants. If you are OK with that then by all means carry on with this approach and prepare yourself for a world of pain and misery.

And I completely agree that your counsellor is a moron!!!

Good luck!


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Chaparral said:


> Actually the 180 does often work to win a wayward wife back.
> 
> For an example. Go out and buy new clothes. New haircut. Go to the gym often. Go out dressed to kill with a tiny bit of cologne. Never tell her where you're going. She needs to think you’re over her and doing great. The most important parts of the 180 are the details. Like showing no concern for her, doing nothing for her and especially being cheerful no matter how hard. Never bring up the relationship. If she wants to talk about while the affair is going on just listen but don’t participate. Listen for a short while and then announce you have someplace to be.
> 
> As shown over many years, what your trying to do has never worked. The upside is you will end up losing a cheating wife anyway.


Yea, in a way, being a doormat will ensure she will dump bbbb swiftly for the OM or whoever else rocks her world. She may rip out his guts and feed it to him along the way. But one thing will be certain, his lack of self-respect will make her run. In the long run he will be better off, even if it was all on her terms. I prefer a proactive approach but maybe the guilt of leaving him shattered and broken will mean the divorce agreement will be a little more favorable for him.


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## BigToe

BluesPower said:


> Our thought are that almost everyone always disagrees with Toe about everything he writes.


Hahaha...well, that may be true, but in my own defense I was married only ONCE, for 32 years. My advice is always based upon that life experience.

The OP doesn't want out of the marriage right now. That's his choice and his choice alone to make. He's fully aware of what his wife has done, and is doing; he's not naive. He knows it may not work out the way he wants it to; he's realistic about the potential outcome. It doesn't help him to be called weak, a ****, or any other characterization just because he desires a different course of action than conventional wisdom of this forum would want him to pursue.


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## BluesPower

BigToe said:


> Hahaha...well, that may be true, but in my own defense I was married only ONCE, for 32 years. My advice is always based upon that life experience.
> 
> The OP doesn't want out of the marriage right now. That's his choice and his choice alone to make. He's fully aware of what his wife has done, and is doing; he's not naive. He knows it may not work out the way he wants it to; he's realistic about the potential outcome. It doesn't help him to be called weak, a ****, or any other characterization just because he desires a different course of action than conventional wisdom of this forum would want him to pursue.


Sorry, but a man that allows this to go on in his marriage is weak. No other why to describe it. It means that he does not value himself, his name, or his child enough to have the strength to do what has to be done. 

And no, she will not come back to this man. Maybe he will file at some point maybe he will not. That is also weak. 

Maybe he will just get himself a side piece? 

There is no reason to stay in this situation, never will be. 

If he wants to win her back, he has to become strong. Now I don't know who has the money in the family but maybe she does. 

What he is doing will assure the destruction of his marriage, and who would want a marriage like this in the first place. 

Mostly I see another young male that does not have a father that has the ball to show him what life is like. 

No, Toe, I, as usually, just have to disagree. 

If that is what you chose to do in your marriage, that is your business. I was marriage a couple of times, once for 26 years so your 32 does not impress me. 

I am afraid that you are doing this man a disservice but maybe that is what he wants.

Who can figure out people....


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## sunsetmist

bbbb8080 said:


> One additional fact that I want y'all to consider in giving your advice. Several years back, I had my own bout with infidelity. While it was never fully exposed, I did many of the things cheaters do (blame on relationship, etc.). This is the biggest regret of my life.
> 
> We never really worked through the issues at that time, and it was essentially brushed under the rug for years until this came up. I know that the past has "hardened" my wife and led to the issues we are now facing.
> 
> With the above said, how does this impact your advice? I know I was wrong, had it coming, etc., so no need to tell me that. But, given the complete context of this, what are your thoughts on how I should proceed? As you can imagine, this knowledge of the "past" is impacting the way that I am handling the current situation.


IMO: this post is the key to this mess. He feels GUILT over his affair/affairs--which was never properly addressed after it/they happened. We have no details on his affair/affairs--length, depth, who, what where, why--could have been years with escorts or admin assistant. Sounds like wife didn't discover all details either. What did happen was she lost respect, love, dedication for bbbb8080. We don't even know if wife's AP is available for future commitment.

He wants to be his usual happy self and woo her back with his charm and forgiveness. He chooses to follow the advice for which he is paying. Many here know the unlikely success of this and want him to get the best deal while she is in limerence. 

To me there is no happy ending. Both have had affairs. Trust is so tarnished it can't be found. We don't know ages, if this is first marriage, or what is left to save.


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## the guy

bbbb8080 said:


> Think it is the same AP.......would be shocked if someone else. I guess there is no way to know for sure though.


Having been there...it never really blows over...It's been my experience the infidelity doesn't die out but only the one particular AP does, and it's just a matter of time before a new AP shows up.

I played this game with my FWW for like seven years and dozens of AP's.

Consider your self warned.

Your counselor hasn't read my tag line and most likely bases his perspective on typical cases.


My wife was having way to much fun to notice the healthy changes I was making. And like you I stuck it out, but I fear your old lady's unhealthy choices will snow ball like mine did.
Granted I could be wrong about your old lady's future, maybe she finds an OM and sticks with him for a long time...


I think both of you guys stopped caring...…..and when that happens anything can happen and usually does!


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## manfromlamancha

BigToe said:


> Hahaha...well, that may be true, but in my own defense I was married only ONCE, for 32 years. My advice is always based upon that life experience.
> 
> The OP doesn't want out of the marriage right now. That's his choice and his choice alone to make. He's fully aware of what his wife has done, and is doing; he's not naive. He knows it may not work out the way he wants it to; he's realistic about the potential outcome. It doesn't help him to be called weak, a ****, or any other characterization just because he desires a different course of action than conventional wisdom of this forum would want him to pursue.


So what is your story from whence this advice comes? Did your wife **** another man or men and you waited patiently for her to come back to you because you wanted to preserve the marriage? Because if that is not the case then your advice is not based on anything relevant. If it is the case would you comment on what was the effect on you as a result of you having the grace to forgive her and wait for her to pick you?

Else OP cannot take your advice seriously. When you see somebody cut and bleeding you tend to advise them to disinfect the wound and also to stem the bleeding (stitches) and recover from the blood loss. You cannot advise them not to get stitches just because you never needed stitches (when you haven't been cut). So I'd love to hear your story to back up the advice you give.

OP you have been warned about this course of action based om a lot of collective experience. Good luck!


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## skerzoid

bbbb8080:

Many people come here asking for advice, then do the opposite because they think they know better than the combined wisdom of the posters on this board who have gone through this themselves and have seen thousands upon thousands of stories exactly like yours over many years. You are certainly welcome to go your own way, but I promise you, you do so at the peril of your family. 

1. You have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it. *Go big or go home.*

2. *Hit her with papers without warning.* Divorce takes time. Watch her actions. If she becomes truly remorseful, you can halt it. If not, get it over with. Tell her she can go be with him, but not as your wife. 

3. The *180* is meant to help you not effect her.

4. Your counselor is asking you to be a doormat. * What's your gut feeling on that?*

5. She wishes to separate in order to try her new plan "A" out. *Plan "B" is in the way right now.*

6. Your teenage son deserves to know what is going on. *With both of you.*

7. *STD test.* She has been taking a stranger's body fluids in. This threatens the health of you and your son. That's why we don't have sex with hookers. They are germ bags.

8. *No sex with her.* This is viewed as forgiveness by the courts. 

9. Be the man you want her and your son to see. *Strong, courageous, and decisive.* It's the only way to come out of these things with a chance to heal.

10.You really need a new therapist. *You're paying money for that kind of advice?*


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## faithfulman

> 4. My personal counselor has told me that, in his mind, the best thing I can do if I truly want to save the marriage is to wait it out and work on myself (prepare for the worse). He says that he would not make her aware of the knowledge I have because of how it was obtained....thinks it will hurt more than it would help. My councilor feels that given the current scenario and our past, I am best to work on my personal relationship/communication with my wife, with the idea that the affair won't last (as most don't), and my wife may recognize that she is not willing to give up the 15+ years and the "breaking up" of our family. Or, through our relationship building, realize she truly wants to continue the marriage. He also acknowledges that this may not be the result, but she may wish to continue the other relationship. Again, he is not advocating this position in normal circumstances, but given our past, this is what he feels is the best option if ultimate goal is a chance at reconciliation. Worst case, it doesn't work out and I am better prepared to move on with my life.


Wait it out!? Sit back until your wife has had her fill of being filled by another man?!

Who gives a **** how you obtained evidence of your wife ****ing another man?! How will it get worse? She might **** him again or something!?

When spouses cheat, the other spouse "invade privacy". You don't have to feel good about it, but you are not wrong to do it and should not apologize for it...because she is ****ing another man! 

Please find another counselor because this one is a moron and/or is on your wife's payroll.

In my experience, most counselors range somewhere between worthless to dangerous. 

Be very selective and fire them quickly if they give you ****ty advice like the advice you are getting.


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## aine

bbbb8080 said:


> Although the rest of this message board will prob come after me for this, I tend to agree with your perspective more than the other posters. Being that I value your advice, I would love to get further feedback. Here is an outline of the current situation:
> 
> 1. At the time I found the incriminating emails, I confronted my wife. She basically said she wanted a break from the marriage in which she could "realize" herself and what she wants. The only alternative to a "separation" for her was a divorce.
> 
> 2. Not wanting a divorce (as explained in my original post), I agreed to the separation but informed her that I would not be comfortable with her seeing other people. She listened, but ultimately said that while she would take that into consideration, she was not willing to have me tell her what she could and couldn't do during this time of separation (hostility from feeling "controlled" throughout the marriage - not violent control, but emotional). Again, the alternative was divorce. I agreed, not from a position of weakness, but from the standpoint that my ultimate goal is to give the marriage the best chance possible of survival.
> 
> 3. I have since became aware that the affair has continued (through billing records in her name that I gained access to....not shared accounts). While I have told her that I feel like an affair is continuing, to show her evidence would also come across as a direct breach of her personal privacy.
> 
> 4. My personal counselor has told me that, in his mind, the best thing I can do if I truly want to save the marriage is to wait it out and work on myself (prepare for the worse). He says that he would not make her aware of the knowledge I have because of how it was obtained....thinks it will hurt more than it would help. My councilor feels that given the current scenario and our past, I am best to work on my personal relationship/communication with my wife, with the idea that the affair won't last (as most don't), and my wife may recognize that she is not willing to give up the 15+ years and the "breaking up" of our family. Or, through our relationship building, realize she truly wants to continue the marriage. He also acknowledges that this may not be the result, but she may wish to continue the other relationship. Again, he is not advocating this position in normal circumstances, but given our past, this is what he feels is the best option if ultimate goal is a chance at reconciliation. Worst case, it doesn't work out and I am better prepared to move on with my life.
> 
> 5. Current stance of wife is that she would like to continue being separated as she is not yet ready to work on the marriage. Alternative to the current separation is divorce.
> 
> While I can see where people stating this is a "weak" stance are coming from, I am not concerned with looking weak. My goal is to save the marriage, or at least give it the best chance to survive. I just want to give my marriage the best chance at survival before I call it quits. Ultimately, if she doesn't come around to wanting to "work" on the marriage, I can ask for divorce whenever I want. I am comfortable with waiting assuming I can accept that it gives me the best chance at reconciliation. At this point, I am paying a professional (the counselor), and in his view (knowing the totality of the situation, our past, her current feelings and reasoning for these feelings, etc) this the best option.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


You still don’t get it. Cheaters are cake eaters, they want it all. Going scorched earth and taking being married to you as an option off the table will have her scrambling to consider her future. The current scenario is simply cake eating and you being a chump. Incidentally a woman who resents you already for your affair will respect you even less with your current approach. You will lose her.


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## aine

manfromlamancha said:


> I can GUARANTEE that you are not going to "win" her back this way! The bulk of the advice you are being given is based on years of experience and is completely contrary to this lone voice you are listening to. If you want to truly save the marriage, you have to be willing to lose it first. Also you need to see that she is playing you and has no reason to change anything. Even if she appears to come back to you it will be on her terms which is paramount to letting her **** around whenever she wants. If you are OK with that then by all means carry on with this approach and prepare yourself for a world of pain and misery.
> 
> And I completely agree that your counsellor is a moron!!!
> 
> Good luck!


He wants to listen to the lone voice cause he doesn’t want to hear the hard stuff


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## Laurentium

I am a qualified therapist and counsellor, specialising in high-conflict marriage work. 

The advice below is a good summary. To it, I would add "NO couple counselling while the affair is still happening". 

I sometimes see wives, after her affair is over and the marriage is disintegrating, saying "all the time I really wanted you to fight for me, and you didn't". 

I know opinions on the 180 vary. Mine is, it's about saying "I have made my position clear (this has to come first) and now I am not going to beg or do the pick-me dance." 

I can't agree with calling the existing counsellor a "moron", of course, but he may be primarily an individual counsellor rather than a marriage counsellor. Every MC has seen more affairs than you can count (like this board). 

Edit to add: Oh also, I am confused, maybe I missed it, but if the OP contacted the AP, then presumably the AP would immediately tell the W this. What did she say, how did she react?



skerzoid said:


> bbbb8080:
> 
> 1. You have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it. *Go big or go home.*
> 
> 2. *Hit her with papers without warning.* Divorce takes time. Watch her actions. If she becomes truly remorseful, you can halt it. If not, get it over with. Tell her she can go be with him, but not as your wife.
> 
> 3. The *180* is meant to help you not effect her.
> 
> 4. Your counselor is asking you to be a doormat. * What's your gut feeling on that?*
> 
> 5. She wishes to separate in order to try her new plan "A" out. *Plan "B" is in the way right now.*
> 
> 6. Your teenage son deserves to know what is going on. *With both of you.*
> 
> 7. *STD test.* She has been taking a stranger's body fluids in. This threatens the health of you and your son. That's why we don't have sex with hookers. They are germ bags.
> 
> 8. *No sex with her.* This is viewed as forgiveness by the courts.
> 
> 9. Be the man you want her and your son to see. *Strong, courageous, and decisive.* It's the only way to come out of these things with a chance to heal.
> 
> 10.You really need a new therapist. *You're paying money for that kind of advice?*


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## BluesPower

Laurentium said:


> I am a qualified therapist and counsellor, specialising in high-conflict marriage work.
> 
> The advice below is a good summary. To it, I would add "NO couple counselling while the affair is still happening".
> 
> I sometimes see wives, after her affair is over and the marriage is disintegrating, saying "all the time I really wanted you to fight for me, and you didn't".
> 
> I know opinions on the 180 vary. Mine is, it's about saying "I have made my position clear (this has to come first) and now I am not going to beg or do the pick-me dance."
> 
> I can't agree with calling the existing counsellor a "moron", of course, but he may be primarily an individual counsellor rather than a marriage counsellor. Every MC has seen more affairs than you can count (like this board).
> 
> Edit to add: Oh also, I am confused, maybe I missed it, but if the OP contacted the AP, then presumably the AP would immediately tell the W this. What did she say, how did she react?


I would call the counselor a moron. Any counselor at any level that believes what this one told OP, is in fact a moron. 

THIS IS NEVER THE RIGHT THING TO DO. EVER. 

This is a problem in your industry. Consolers that believe in waiting it out and letting the affair end on its own. This is never good advice. 

Where did that school of thought originate in the first place? It has done a lot of damage to a lot of people, I actually cannot believe that anyone is stupid enough to suggest this, the concept has been debunked years ago...


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## Tell me more lies

I really don't understand your position OP, you are suppling your wayward with a home, domestic services, childcare, and all the great things that should be part of a marriage.

What is she doing? Besides having an affair right under your nose?

Wow, just WOW!


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