# Men need men



## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

Many of our problems stem from not forming close bonds with other men. It is self inflicted.

Ladies feel free to chime in.


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## Mike6211 (Jan 18, 2013)

It's also inflicted by modern Western culture. Of course, that 'bad start' doesn't absolve men from the responsibility for doing what needs to be done. But how, exactly, are these 'close bonds' to be formed amongst men who are "self-alienated" from the lack of 'empowered elders' and lack of meaningful rites of passage from adolesence into adulthood?

A good book is "Under Saturn's Shadow" by James Hollis Under Saturn's Shadow: The Wounding and Healing of Men (Studies in Jungian Psychology By Jungian Analysts): James Hollis: 9780919123649: Amazon.com: Books

I count myself fortunate in that I attend a men's group for a day four times a year. It is a 'closed' group (i.e. new members come in only when someone leaves and it has a 'committed' culture rather than a 'drop-in' culture). It's really the only place where I can feel more than lightly vulnerable, in a 'male energy' setting.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

I totally agree. Our MC has gently trying to encourage my SO in that direction, but so far it's not happening. I think men's groups (i.e. church groups) are very beneficial for men.


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## Mike6211 (Jan 18, 2013)

SecondTime'Round said:


> ... I think men's groups (i.e. church groups) are very beneficial for men.


I would have a problem with a church group on two counts. First, it being held under 'the umbrella' of the church, I'd see a 'church-compliant' or 'church-consistent' flavour arising - a case perhaps of 'participants, don't rock the boat'.

Secondly, even though I have a self-imposed rule that I don't say anything in my group that I wouldn't say to my wife's face, I would be uncomfortable with the possibility of 'leakage' out of the group of what happened within it eg to wives of participants

I just mention, in case your SO might have similar concerns.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Mike6211 said:


> I would have a problem with a church group on two counts. First, it being held under 'the umbrella' of the church, I'd see a 'church-compliant' or 'church-consistent' flavour arising - a case perhaps of 'participants, don't rock the boat'.
> 
> Secondly, even though I have a self-imposed rule that I don't say anything in my group that I wouldn't say to my wife's face, I would be uncomfortable with the possibility of 'leakage' out of the group of what happened within it eg to wives of participants
> 
> I just mention, in case your SO might have similar concerns.


I think his only real issue is that we're just not even involved in a church right now so he wouldn't know where to start. Also, probably just being selfish with his time.

I'm curious, why wouldn't the "leaking to the wives" thing possibly happen in a non-church group?


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## Mike6211 (Jan 18, 2013)

SecondTime'Round said:


> ...why wouldn't the "leaking to the wives" thing possibly happen in a non-church group?


It might, but the wives won't know each other. I didn't know any of the men in my group before I joined it


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Mike6211 said:


> It's also inflicted by modern Western culture. Of course, that 'bad start' doesn't absolve men from the responsibility for doing what needs to be done. But how, exactly, are these 'close bonds' to be formed amongst men who are "self-alienated" from the lack of 'empowered elders' and lack of meaningful rites of passage from adolesence into adulthood?
> 
> A good book is "Under Saturn's Shadow" by James Hollis Under Saturn's Shadow: The Wounding and Healing of Men (Studies in Jungian Psychology By Jungian Analysts): James Hollis: 9780919123649: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> I count myself fortunate in that I attend a men's group for a day four times a year. It is a 'closed' group (i.e. new members come in only when someone leaves and it has a 'committed' culture rather than a 'drop-in' culture). It's really the only place where I can feel more than lightly vulnerable, in a 'male energy' setting.


Hollis was at least ambivalent about Men's Groups in the book you reference. In the first few chapters he discusses how his son's mentor tried to shame him into acquiescing to a proscribed view of masculine expression. Hollis correctly noted this as a suppression of the self in favor of an idealized version of masculine expression. Hollis rejected this viewpoint (as would have Jung). Thinking about the men's groups based on "Hold On To Your Nuts". Self-expression and vulnerability: good. Indoctrination and groupthink: bad.


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## Mike6211 (Jan 18, 2013)

Jung_admirer said:


> Hollis was at least ambivalent about Men's Groups in the book you reference.


I think Hollis, in that book, gave a flavour of not really being able to see 'the way forward' at all - he did more to identify the problems than to suggest solutions. Although, to the extent that cultural-norm solutions may be there to be found, they would surely need to 'emerge ' rather than to be imposed, so I'm not taking a swipe at Hollis on that account - a good perception of how the landscape lies is a prerequisite for any meaningful effort to traverse it.

For now though, I think men are largely 'on their own' (men's groups or no men's groups) and I'd see this as stemming from the lack of arduous rite-of-passage rituals where adolescent males, as part of becoming men, would feel a deep bond to their guiding elders who, the young knew, would have been through the same themselves. Today, young men have to muddle through from adolescence through the 'kidult' stage of the twenties, emerging into some semblance of adulthood in their thirties.

It's all rather lonely and isolating. You mentioned the vignette of the son's mentor; Hollis gives another vignette of when he speaks to women's groups, who he says tend to be appalled when they 'see' the world through men's eyes (emotionally isolated, valued only for what they can do, produce or provide and so on). That's a rather sketchy reference to a deeply evocative passage - but i can't put my hands on my copy of the book at the moment.



Jung_admirer said:


> Self-expression and vulnerability: good. Indoctrination and groupthink: bad.


Yes, indeed.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Mike6211 said:


> It might, but the wives won't know each other. I didn't know any of the men in my group before I joined it


Oh, I see what you mean. How did you find your group?


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## Mike6211 (Jan 18, 2013)

SecondTime'Round said:


> How did you find your group?


Googled on men's group London


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

My H has always been closer to me over any male friends , since age 18 .. I don't think it has made him a lessor man in any ways that have hurt us. There was a men's group at our church, they were always trying to get him to go.. He might have went 1 or 2 times over the years...just wasn't his thing...

He works with 99% men and feels that's enough male bonding for him, he gets along fine with them, he is very well liked, asked to come visit one's cabin, go to a gun show...come to the house...many of these things, he brings me along even - the guys are all good with that.. 

He's always had a few guy friends but more so than not...their getting together has been to work on something out in the garage... I don't know. 

.. I just know my H is content hanging with Family.. wife & the kids.. and never put a whole lot of emphasis on male bonding..he's also not into sports, so sitting around with a bunch of men going on about football would bore the he** out of him.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> ..he's also not into sports, so sitting around with a bunch of men going on about football would bore the he** out of him.


Same here! It seems like a large part of male bonding is sports related, and that's not my thing.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

People need friends that feed parts of their soul. It can be men or women. Their friends will also provide a sense of belonging so yes we do need men (and women) to help us feel complete.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

meson said:


> *People need friends that feed parts of their soul. It can be men or women. Their friends will also provide a sense of belonging so yes we do need men (and women) to help us feel complete*.


Yes, it does feed something in us.. 

Our closest couple friends - we've known since high school, we watched our kids growing up together...they moved 3 hrs away.. Facebook is great but we miss their frequent visits (now that might happen just once/ twice a year)..... so many memories of the 4 of us laughing under the Gazebo while all our kids played in the distance, in the sandbox, on the trampoline.. on the hammocks goofing off..... This year their daughter will go to the Prom with our 3rd son -something they always talked about, if one needed a date. 

Maybe it's not the norm here.. but we've always been a couple who seemed to get together with other *couples * (though we have some single friends of both genders too)... he's never been one to hang out with the boys drinking into the night- type thing... and I never cared much for "Girls night out"... 

But yeah.. Friends are VERY IMPORTANT.. in my teen years, they were my salvation.. what made me feel I had a place in this world, gave me Hope.. 

I also greatly encourage our children to hang with friends, and make memories, it builds a sense of connection & belonging in all of us.. Very true !


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I don't know. I get through the day pretty nicely without cuddling with another guy. Maybe some men need to sit in the cave with other guys and discuss The Lakers. I work with mostly men but we don't take long showers together or sit around weeping and talking about our feelings.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I am more challenged and challenging around men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

Everyone just needs friends, I don't think the gender of said friends is important. I can't imagine how people live when their only real friend is also their spouse. I love my husband to shreds, but I think we'd both go crazy if we (and our kids) were the extent of our social circle. 

(Also, I always thought things described as "men's groups" were just really, really thinly veiled gay meet-ups but apparently not? What do guys actually do at these meetings, then?)


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I've got a friend. I married her. If I need another, I'll go arrest one and we can chat on the way to jail.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

batsociety said:


> *Everyone just needs friends*, I don't think the gender of said friends is important. I can't imagine how people live when their only real friend is also their spouse. I love my husband to shreds, but I think we'd both go crazy if we (and our kids) were the extent of our social circle.


Not everyone, I have my fill of people at my workplace...We socialize quite a bit. 

And, just because you don't have a whole lot of friends doesn't mean you spend every waking moment with your spouse. 

Family, that's a different story and hold them close to my heart.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I think this is true. My husband has two brothers and they are very close even though one lives 6 hours away. They talk on the phone all the time. They are very supportive of one another.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I've got dogs. They listen but never repeat my business. I can commune with the dirt in my garden. The fish in the lake are always happy to listen and judging from their wagging tails, they really like it when I catch them. I've been raised. I know what the right thing to do is in virtually every situation, so sitting around brainstorming these things with fellow males seems a bit pointless. If a person knows what is right and what is wrong, their only remaining question is, "will I take the right course?" If the answer is something other than, "yes", it doesn't matter how many friends they talk to.


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

unbelievable said:


> I've got dogs. They listen but never repeat my business. I can commune with the dirt in my garden. The fish in the lake are always happy to listen and judging from their wagging tails, they really like it when I catch them. I've been raised. I know what the right thing to do is in virtually every situation, so sitting around brainstorming these things with fellow males seems a bit pointless. If a person knows what is right and what is wrong, their only remaining question is, "will I take the right course?" If the answer is something other than, "yes", it doesn't matter how many friends they talk to.


Define this whole post.


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

In part, it’s a cultural phenomenon, it wasn’t all that long ago (1970’s) that the infrastructure which engenders “male only” socialization (things like lodges, fraternal society’s, and etc.)were categorically vilified and have or are largely disappearing. 

Male Roles and Expectations on me as a Gen X male are dramatically different that those of my father a Baby-Boomer and those of my grandfather a WWII man. I am far more involved in the day-to-day aspects of our family than either my father or grandfather were. Going off for a week with the boys just isn’t in the mix.

Another aspect is economic. I work far greater hours away from the house than either my father or grandfather did. I’m also tethered to the Balckberry and VPN 24/7. And pragmatically, we move a lot more. Men of our generation are far more transient and less of a sense in having “roots” in a given place. And the work environment has changed too. I work with as many, if not more, women than men. 

Another element is technology. In a strange twist I think many men find intellectual engagement with other men in discussion groups, forums, and etc. To wit, I’d guess there are more men actively participating on TAM then women?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

batsociety said:


> Define this whole post.


Don't know what there is to define. If you believe you need same-sex friends to make you a better person, the logical follow-up question is, "why?" If you're an adult and were properly raised, you already know the difference between right and wrong. You don't need others to counsel you. If you know what is right, what difference does it make what 200 other people think about it? I don't need others to make me a better person. I just need to choose to do what I already know is right. Sitting around talking with a bunch of fellow cripples isn't going to make me run faster. Getting out and running will.


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

unbelievable said:


> batsociety said:
> 
> 
> > Define this whole post.
> ...


That's a pretty warped idea of friendship there, dude.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

batsociety said:


> That's a pretty warped idea of friendship there, dude.


And that's an opinion. Friendship is great and I am friendly and courteous to all I meet. The title of this thread is "Men NEED men", not "men enjoy hanging out with men". I expect quite a few people on earth get along quite nicely without any close associations outside their family. Back in the day, most men were farmers and spent almost all their life with just with their family. They didn't end up in a tower with a sniper rifle. 

To those who just can't get through the day without hanging out with their "bro", more power to them. That's just not a "need" I share and I don't believe I'm alone. I don't need to sit around a campfire with other guys, scratching my behind, to learn how to be a man. Teaching me how to do that was my father's job.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Everything you need to know about being a man, being a husband, being a father, being an employee, being a boss, being a neighbor, was written down for you in the Bible, thousands of years ago. You're not going to get better information hanging out at Hooter's with a bunch of your bros.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

unbelievable said:


> Don't know what there is to define. If you believe you need same-sex friends to make you a better person, the logical follow-up question is, "why?" If you're an adult and were properly raised, you already know the difference between right and wrong. You don't need others to counsel you. If you know what is right, what difference does it make what 200 other people think about it? I don't need others to make me a better person. I just need to choose to do what I already know is right. Sitting around talking with a bunch of fellow cripples isn't going to make me run faster. Getting out and running will.


This post made me laugh.. reminded me of a conversation I had with my Father yrs ago.. this pretty much sums up how he feels about CHURCH...he sees no value in it at all... sitting there listening to a Preacher and others telling us how to live...in his world, that is all just "common sense".


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

unbelievable said:


> Everything you need to know about being a man, being a husband, being a father, being an employee, being a boss, being a neighbor, was written down for you in the Bible, thousands of years ago. You're not going to get better information hanging out at Hooter's with a bunch of your bros.


No, you won't get better information at Hooter's. You will get it just about anywhere else, though.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Nothing in my Bible tells me to emulate other people in the church. I see value in attending services and associating with fellow believers, but folks get into trouble when they look up to other humans. I had a really close friend for many years. I had to lock him up for attempted murder. I had another really close friend in the Army. Had to lock him up, too. Just got through doing an internal affairs investigation on a fellow officer I work with. I could have to do another one tomorrow. There's not a living soul on earth (outside immediate family) that I might not one day have to investigate, lock up, or shoot. I'm polite to everyone, friendly to everyone, courteous to everyone, but close only to my wife and kids. I might see my local pastor in women's underwear or I may have to lock him up for molesting kids next week. I have no moral heroes living down here on this earth and I'm not entrusting my sanity or my soul to anyone of flesh and blood.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

batsociety said:


> No, you won't get better information at Hooter's. You will get it just about anywhere else, though.


I don't believe you will. Every human is flawed, so if you look up to one you're going to be disappointed sooner or later.


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

unbelievable said:


> Nothing in my Bible tells me to emulate other people in the church. I see value in attending services and associating with fellow believers, but folks get into trouble when they look up to other humans. I had a really close friend for many years. I had to lock him up for attempted murder. I had another really close friend in the Army. Had to lock him up, too. Just got through doing an internal affairs investigation on a fellow officer I work with. I could have to do another one tomorrow. There's not a living soul on earth (outside immediate family) that I might not one day have to investigate, lock up, or shoot. I'm polite to everyone, friendly to everyone, courteous to everyone, but close only to my wife and kids. I might see my local pastor in women's underwear or I may have to lock him up for molesting kids next week. I have no moral heroes living down here on this earth and I'm not entrusting my sanity or my soul to anyone of flesh and blood.


As a former forensic psychologist with the police dept. in my state I'm kind of concerned by your paranoia and trust issues. I'm not saying this to be a D-bag, just maybe it's something you should keep in mind.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

batsociety said:


> As a former forensic psychologist with the police dept. in my state I'm kind of concerned by your paranoia and trust issues. I'm not saying this to be a D-bag, just maybe it's something you should keep in mind.


That's cool, Doc. If I want someone to crack my skull and root around with a stick, I'll let you know.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> I don't believe you will. Every human is flawed, so if you look up to one you're going to be disappointed sooner or later.


And that's what I have found with all the men I have tried to be friends with. None of them seemed much better than me, only different. How we did things to achieve some goal was just different, neither better, nor worse, in all the normal cases. That "ideal standard" was not there. When I followed what they said they would do, in most cases, because my life is different from theirs, I failed. Partly why I can be so hard headed with suggestions not backed up with neutral science or tradition.


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Everything you need to know about being a man, being a husband, being a father, being an employee, being a boss, being a neighbor, was written down for you in the Bible, thousands of years ago. You're not going to get better information hanging out at Hooter's with a bunch of your bros.


And the Bible is a collection of inspiration, written and oral histories which were handed down amongst men (sorry girls) in both formal and informal social interactions. 

While the allusion to Hooters is amusing rhetoric, it misses the greater question/point which is that society progresses as collaboration of wisdom and intellect rather than in isolation and that many observe and believe that the social fabric which has traditionally fostered that progress has dramatically changed in the past 40-years. 

It is not without irony then that “your” Bible, as a divine manifestation, is known to you through that societal fabric – sorta’ that “No man is an island” kind of a thing.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

SpinDaddy said:


> And the Bible is a collection of inspiration, written and oral histories which were handed down amongst men (sorry girls) in both formal and informal social interactions.
> 
> While the allusion to Hooters is amusing rhetoric, it misses the greater question/point which is that society progresses as collaboration of wisdom and intellect rather than in isolation and that many observe and believe that the social fabric which has traditionally fostered that progress has dramatically changed in the past 40-years.
> 
> It is not without irony then that “your” Bible, as a divine manifestation, is known to you through that societal fabric – sorta’ that “No man is an island” kind of a thing.


Whether it was inspired by God Almighty or put together by the writers at Hallmark, what's in it has always worked for me. Why would it bother anyone here if a man gets through life without craving some group hug? Don't we have enough victimized, helpless, vulnerable people? The world is a huge place and lots of people need saving. I'm doing pretty well.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

batsociety said:


> As a former forensic psychologist with the police dept. in my state I'm kind of concerned by your paranoia and trust issues. I'm not saying this to be a D-bag, just maybe it's something you should keep in mind.


C'mon Doc. I don't think he's paranoid at all...

Humans are a strange bunch, no? I've had "friends" in the past do some weird a$$ sh!t and never saw it coming.


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

Not thinking so much in the context of a “group hug” but rather in the context of matters like Framers of our Constitution or the Founding Fathers. These things did not come to pass in spiritual or social isolation. And, at least in Ben Franklin’s case, a Hooter’s type establishment most likely played a role.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

SpinDaddy said:


> Not thinking so much in the context of a “group hug” but rather in the context of matters like Framers of our Constitution or the Founding Fathers. These things did not come to pass in spiritual or social isolation. And, at least in Ben Franklin’s case, a Hooter’s type establishment most likely played a role.


Our Founders were politicians, a profession that requires negotiation with others to achieve a specific goal. They weren't getting together to try to cope with managing their own personal lives.


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Our Founders were politicians, a profession that requires negotiation with others to achieve a specific goal. They weren't getting together to try to cope with managing their own personal lives.


Oh seriously Officer Fife, go write some tickets!


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Church was where much of it took place, along with taverns. Probably why there was such a diverse group of professionals involved. Taverns were meeting places, just as church, but in the taverns, they could express individual ideas which were in many cases rooted in church teachings or dealings with religious tolerance based upon the bible and restricted by the government.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

"Need"? Maybe, but I certainly can see many benefits. It was always said (a cultural perspective) that one benefit to marriage was to gain a BIL to help working the lo'i (taro fields) or fishing (in ancient times and even now it was sometimes a multi man task). 

Even now, I spend part of my weekend working with my cousin on his farm, a mix of lo'i, aquaponics and some free range chickens. I know there are women strong enough to carry out the task, but the quality time while working the fields can be good, and brings "mana" to each other. I guess it is just a Hawaiian thing. But each to his own in these situations. 

And, yes my very best friend is my wife.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> "Need"? Maybe, but I certainly can see many benefits. *It was always said (a cultural perspective) that one benefit to marriage was to gain a BIL* to help working the lo'i (taro fields) or fishing (in ancient times and even now it was sometimes a multi man task).
> 
> Even now, I spend part of my weekend working with my cousin on his farm, a mix of lo'i, aquaponics and some free range chickens. I know there are women strong enough to carry out the task, but the quality time while working the fields can be good, and brings "mana" to each other. I guess it is just a Hawaiian thing. But each to his own in these situations.
> 
> And, yes my very best friend is my wife.


Must be cultural because prior to the late twentieth century, and I believe still to this day on farms, around here anyway, children were expected to help out, not so much a BIL.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Must be cultural because prior to the late twentieth century, and I believe still to this day on farms, around here anyway, children were expected to help out, not so much a BIL.



Very much a cultural thing, to this day I can't think of too many non-commercial lo'i where I see women working. It was kapu (forbidden) in ancient times. I guess somethings are not easily reversed. 

Pounding kalo (comes from the lo'i) poi too, very much a male thing. 

http://youtu.be/5LuIYcBFHM8


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> Very much a cultural thing, to this day I can't think of too many non-commercial lo'i where I see women working. It was kapu (forbidden) in ancient times. I guess somethings are not easily reversed.
> 
> Pounding kalo (comes from the lo'i) poi too, very much a male thing.
> 
> http://youtu.be/5LuIYcBFHM8


I had to watch because I wasn't sure what poi was and some folks like to "pound", well you know. On a side note, ow my fingers. I bet there are quite a few broken when learning or distracted. It does look like a wonderful way to beat the crap out of something rolling around in your head and bothering you. Sleep would be easier. 

Sorry for the TJ.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Ikaika, I would have suspected that you also bonded a lot in the lineup waiting for waves. That's where most of my bonding with friends happens, outdoors experiencing nature. 

I was homesick once and tried pounding Kalo here in Maryland but the Taro root is different and it was terrible. Asian variety that didn't work.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

The last couple of years, my husband has placed friendships as one of his priorities. He realized this was something lacking in his life. Now he has a group of friends around him. There are four men in particular he's closer with and they'll call one another from time to time to catch up and are supportive of each other. They also make time to meet for lunch/coffee/beer every few weeks. I'm friends with their wives and we get together regularly as couples on weekends.

It's not that these men (his friends) are role-models; rather my husband's view is that friendships help make him a more well-rounded person. It keeps us open to different perspectives and learning about ourselves and others. And having friends is fun - sharing in good times!

He's also met with some older guys that run a carpenter workshop. They seemed surprised but welcoming to the idea of teaching him some skills... his plate is full at the moment but when the time's right, he'll likely learn from them.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

SpinDaddy said:


> Oh seriously Officer Fife, go write some tickets!


Now, that's just rude. I don't come down to Burger King and make fun of your job.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Thankfully nearly every human society gets this, past and present. 

The notion that men just need their female partner is a VERY new, and very limited, western idea.

And thankfully millions of men in the west don't buy into this feminized, romanticized bull****. Men need men (general rule: there are always exceptions). It's just very sad that for a lot of whipped men have been put in the absurd position by their woman of having to chose her over friends. Pathetic.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Everything you need to know about being a man, being a husband, being a father, being an employee, being a boss, being a neighbor, was written down for you in the Bible, thousands of years ago. You're not going to get better information hanging out at Hooter's with a bunch of your bros.


Oh the irony.

*Romans 12:10* - Love one another with brotherly affection. Out do one another in showing honor.

*Proverbs 17:17* - A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity.

*Proverbs 27:17 *- Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another.

*Proverbs 18:24* - A man of many companions may come to ruin, but there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother.

*Ecclesiastes 4:9-10* - Two are better than one, because they have a good return for their work: If one falls down, his friend can help him up. But pity the man who falls and has no one to help him up!

*John 15:12,13* - My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.


The bible is the worse example to use for you supporting this notion that friendship is unnecessary. Too many scriptures state the exact opposite, both explicitly and implicitly; some of the great friendships featured in all literature are found in the bible.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Some dogs sacrifice too much for others and they do not make their needs a priority. They become too dependent on one person, wife/girlfriend. They castrate their can-do masculine power and become whinny b!tches no one wants around, most of all their women. They need quality men to help them regain their balls and become men.


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Now, that's just rude. I don't come down to Burger King and make fun of your job.


Not making fun of your job, I'm complimenting you. Who didn’t love Barney? No matter how obtuse he may have been on something his heart was always in the right place.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Thankfully nearly every human society gets this, past and present.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I sometimes feel very much like a foreigner on TAM. I don't understand the bold comment. I love my wife, respect her (she has earned it) but she would never tell me I could not spend time with my cousin or friends, that concept seems odd. Granted, I don't spend time with them drinking and wasting time and I get the the things that need to be done around our house, that is I don't sacrifice the duties at home only to double down for those with friends. 

To the contrary, she rather me do something productive with my cousin and friends than sit about the house wasting time. Plus, I come home with food she does not have to buy at the store. I work a white collar job, but my outside activities are anything but white collar and do involve my sons or other males. Maybe it is just me, or maybe it is just my culture.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jaquen said:


> Thankfully nearly every human society gets this, past and present.
> 
> The notion that men just need their female partner is a VERY new, and very limited, western idea.
> 
> And thankfully millions of men in the west don't buy into this feminized, romanticized bull****. Men need men (general rule: there are always exceptions).* It's just very sad that for a lot of whipped men have been put in the absurd position by their woman of having to chose her over friends. Pathetic.*


OK question... I understand your post is directed at men who are ALLOWING their women/ wives to LORD over them... bi*ching , whining he is never home ..throwing some jabs...that he needs to be with her/ the kids more so... too much time with the Boys....guilt tripping... such men are submitting to their wives , even resenting it...

That's not me.. just let me get that out, never had such a conversation, never tried to keep him home more.. 

*Now ... what do you Do or think of the husbands/ fathers who really just DON'T CARE ALL THAT MUCH ??* ..... I speak for my Husband here.. he is not one to be calling the guys up... if anything, it's always someone else saying >> "Hey let's get together", or calling HIM..asking "hey you want to go with me here?"... and I DO encourage him to go... Heck yeah!!...and he does.. though this doesn't happen all that often.. 

He really only seems to care about ME & his kids, granted we have a house full here ....it's not like He's bored or lonely by any stretch....there is plenty to keep the man busy & entertained.. (& 5 of these are SONS, then add more boys to the mix on weekends)..... if anything I probably get the least female bonding out of any of us!.. 

I also don't seem to care all that much... 

This is his pride & joy.... his domain.... It's when I read how so many other men ARE.. that I keep insisting he is tipped BETA (don't mean it in the negative).....Because he's not into sports... because he didn't try to bang women in his youth...because he is naturally Romantic/ the tender hearted softer type.. a great listener.. even enjoys those Chick flicks with me -(you remember that thread Jaquen -you didn't think that was so bad)!

Now I will admit.. IF he was the type that put too much emphasis on hanging with the boys, add drinking/ bars ... I would have never stayed with him..

As a wife, I SO ENJOY the way he IS... he's spent plenty of time in the garage helping other guys work on their vehicles.. getting engines out, putting them in.. the male bonding for him is more tied to getting a job done so it seems.. unless we're all just hanging out together, with the wives / group of friends shooting the breeze, during a bonfire, party, picnic etc.. 

That's our life....He is content with THIS way of being.. again, he works with 99% men.. that's enough male bonding...I have to laugh as he often has said ...those guys are like a bunch of women- all the drama they give off at work.. He's happy to get home many times..


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

SA your husband works primarily with men, has an entire brood of sons, and still hangs out occasionally with friends outside of work when doing a project together, like working on a car.

He's surrounded by plenty of male energy. Not sure why you're holding him up as an example to the contrary.

In this respect he sounds like a typical male. For some reason you're trying to categorize him differently.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

Yes. One of the stereotypical things that happens is that once men began to seriously date a woman/get married they suddenly lose all their male friends because they give all their time to their wife, willingly or not. While I agree that priorities should shift, it's important that friends remain. 

My husband has always had built in friends from the time I met him. He works a job that creates a very strong bond amongst them. Since he travels a lot for work they get lots of quality time together, and I'm happy for that. They'll just sit and tell stories for hours and have a good time, and encourage eachother about work.

But outside of work things? They actually DO text a lot, but it's always either about whats going on at work or sports. Which is fine. But my husband is lacking something, which is only because of our situation. It's not so much about having friends, but the TYPE of friends. Since my husband isn't a super emotional guy, if our marriage were still solid like it was in the beginning I wouldn't even think of telling him what kinds of friends to have. He doesn't need to be all deep and philosophical with other men, or people in general. But all that changed when our marriage began falling apart and suddenly the only person who could call him out on his actions were me. And at the time I was the enemy to him, so it was my silent battle. If he had had friends that were the type to know more about his personal life and vice versa, then I believe that could have made an impact much sooner for him about how he was treating me and needing to get a grip on handling his life. He was not being good person, and I wished so badly he had a friend that would call him out on that and be a good example. These guys probably could have been that, but they just didn't "go there" with each other.

So again, I think every guy should have male friends. But I do NOT necessarily think every guy should have friends that they get all "personal" with. Only if they feel the need. However, if their life is falling apart, then suddenly the need for that type of male friend who does talk about life with you may be more than needed.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jaquen said:


> For some reason you're trying to categorize him differently.


It's simply because he seriously* doesn't care*....like at all.. talking about it earlier, he said the same thing.. he doesn't want to hang out with anyone...one could say he's a bit of a "loner" even...except when it comes to family, he is VERY involved with us. 

I guess that's why... is this normal or is this not normal in the world of men?? People have different views on it, is all...like a man should have his regular "GUY TIME, just him & the boys"... 

I am sure everyone's bar is set a little higher or lower in that *need*, or should I say "*enjoyment*".... 

Let me use my Father as an example......on weekends for much of his life...he'd hang out in the garage drinking beer with his buddies & did hill climbs in the back yard .....I recall him & specific friends often getting together, shooting the breeze.. it was common place, or he'd go to another guys house & spend hours in his garage -drinking beer again.. he seemed to ENJOY GUY TIME much more so than my husband would ever care... 

Now as my Father has gotten older.. this went by the way side...his weekends is just him & my step Mom now...and he's all good with it. 

IN comparison... for my H ...there is no regular hang out with men in his life... It's a "whatever comes" down the pike sort of thing...

This is my assessment... If we had a house full of daughters, I seriously doubt he would be any different, even if he worked with lots of women, it just so happens he works with men & has sons.. so I guess it sounds better !...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I hear you, SA. My husband would always rather hang with our kids and me. Turned down a Super Bowl party invite from his boss just to be with us.

He knows his priorities.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

My H has benefited tremendously this past year by involving himself with a men's group at church. These guys have provided MUCH needed support and accountability. He is WAY happier. Before he just looked to me for all the answers and it just doesn't work that way, no matter how strong or smart I am. I wasn't designed to carry all of that.

So I encouraged him to "spread it around Baby, get your answers from numerous sources."


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> It's simply because he seriously* doesn't care*....like at all.....


That is his Alpha side coming out


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> *I hear you, SA. My husband would always rather hang with our kids and me. Turned down a Super Bowl party invite from his boss just to be with us.
> 
> He knows his priorities*.


We care so little for sports, I didn't even know there was a super bowl till yesterday morning ..he was telling me how one co-worker, I know this guy, he's loud and gets all fired up.. saying ... "It's good to see I won't be the only miserable one having to work " (during the S bowl)...and I guess he got a laugh out of this cause another guy, apparently like him said..."I won't be missing nothing", another didn't say anything... ... 

My H wouldn't go even if we weren't home - I did put the news on this am though.. sounded like the most exciting Super Bowl ever...seen all the Tom Brady talk.. here I was telling him how posters on TAM have used his body in comparisons here, cause he looks like an average Joe ... and about his HOT wife, heck I didn't even know who Tom Brady was !!!...had to do a google search!

But yeah..the highlights are enough for us .... it's always the commercials we get a charge out of, I was laughing my butt off with that FIAT one with the viagra... looked it up just now...

Official Fiat 500X teaser blue pill Viagra 










I'm going to have him read my posts, maybe he'll comment himself.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

I'm not into the Super Bowl either. Xkcd summarizes my feelings when I go to Super bowl parties:

xkcd: Super Bowl

For me they are about doing something with friends. Last night though I gave may wife a hot oil message while it was on. Way more fun on ANY given Sunday.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

meson said:


> I'm not into the Super Bowl either. Xkcd summarizes my feelings when I go to Super bowl parties:
> 
> xkcd: Super Bowl
> 
> For me they are about doing something with friends. * Last night though I gave may wife a hot oil message while it was on. Way more fun on ANY given Sunday*.


:smthumbup: I liked your link...

There you go !!! Frankly we'd rather just watch some Porn.. not exactly something we can talk about out & about though!


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> It's simply because he seriously* doesn't care*....like at all.. talking about it earlier, he said the same thing.. he doesn't want to hang out with anyone...one could say he's a bit of a "loner" even...except when it comes to family, he is VERY involved with us.
> 
> I guess that's why... is this normal or is this not normal in the world of men?? People have different views on it, is all...like a man should have his regular "GUY TIME, just him & the boys"...
> 
> ...


There are exceptions to every rule, definitely. Typically, historically, and even now the world over, same sex socialization has been normal, pervasive and necessary for much of humanity. 

But I actually do wonder if your husband would have the same nonchalant attitude about relationships with other men if all his male relationships never were. If he did have all daughters, no male co-workers, no males to work on projects with, no relationship with male family members, and his entire life was surrounded by nothing but estrogen, I really am curious as to whether he'd be totally fine with that.

A lot of guys don't think much of their bonding time with other men, because it's always been there. It just "happens". But if it suddenly disappeared?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jaquen said:


> There are exceptions to every rule, definitely. Typically, historically, and even now the world over, same sex socialization has been normal, pervasive and necessary for much of humanity.
> 
> *But I actually do wonder if your husband would have the same nonchalant attitude about relationships with other men if all his male relationships never were. If he did have all daughters, no male co-workers, no males to work on projects with, no relationship with male family members, and his entire life was surrounded by nothing but estrogen, I really am curious as to whether he'd be totally fine with that.*
> 
> A lot of guys don't think much of their bonding time with other men, because it's always been there. It just "happens".* But if it suddenly disappeared?*


I am very sure this gives him "enough" balance to get by...... I did ask this question earlier to him.. he said he still probably wouldn't care.. (easy to say I know)... 

Without the influence of the men in his life over the years, his dad & him building garages in his teens, a mechanic friend helping him put a truck together, for instance, he surely wouldn't have learned as many *manly* skills...which these things have been a Godsend over the years.. 

I wouldn't want it to disappear either !! ..those interactions built "hands on" learning, and confidence , helped shape him into someone who is capable of getting a Job done...

Isn't it true when men get together, they are generally involved in some activity , to accomplish something.. a band, building something, helping each other??... it's not like they care to hang out unleashing their emotions -like us women do over a couple cups of tea...sort of thing. 

Yet in these MALE activities they JOKE, while their building or whatever, let off some steam ..maybe a little more with a beer -things trickle out...it's like their release is in the joking -the things they can't get away saying - many times around their wives.. I don't know.. just the feeling I get with many "men on men" interactions... 

Blossom Leigh mentioned the Men's group at her Church.. in these groups generally they encourage more emotional openness / accountability to whatever the man's struggles are . .... we have a single guy friend who goes regularly to a Men's group .... he's mentioned in passing how important those guys are to him .. he's had his sister overdose twice on drugs -both times she pulled through... I just know HOW MUCH their support meant to him during times like that.. he doesn't really have any family except her....he calls us his closest friends.. we don't see him as much as in the past ..... so it's good he has that group to hang with.


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## homerjay (Dec 12, 2014)

chaos said:


> Many of our problems stem from not forming close bonds with other men. It is self inflicted.
> 
> Ladies feel free to chime in.


I don't agree.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Isn't it true when men get together, they are generally involved in some activity , to accomplish something.. a band, building something, helping each other??... it's not like they care to hang out unleashing their emotions -like us women do over a couple cups of tea...sort of thing.


This is typical, but far from universal.

For example I have a lot of friends, as I've mentioned several times on this board; they range in age, background, race, ethnicity, perspective, etc. But almost none of my friendships are activity based. When I meet up with a friend, it's almost always for lunch, a cup of coffee/tea, hanging out at my or their place, whatever, just to talk. Depending on the friendship we'll sit for hours talking about politics, spiritual matters, film, sports, women, sex, relationships, video games, whatever. And yes, emotions. I am an openly emotional man and I love to just listen to people, and when possible, offer insights. Because of that I seem to draw lots of men who need a place to be able to talk openly, freely, without judgement. I even have close and best friends who don't open up this way to any other people in their lives but me. I'm close to quite a few fellas whose other friendships are activity based, where very little deeper stuff is discussed, but when hanging out with me are wellsprings of expression. In fact just last week a young pastor-in-training from my church said to me, a 24 year old man with a wife and 4 kids, that I'm about the only man he knows that he can just be completely open with. I am honored, and humbled, by those words. I truly believe this is one of my greater purposes in life.

In my experience, men need to express. Many of us just don't have the tools to do that, or we don't find too many other people we can express with without feeling judged or weakened. Men are socialized to be emotionally distant, and silent, but that's not our inherent make up. We are different than women, but we are still very much human, and just as emotionally complex and alive.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Blossom Leigh mentioned the Men's group at her Church.. in these groups generally they encourage more emotional openness / accountability to whatever the man's struggles are . .... we have a single guy friend who goes regularly to a Men's group .... he's mentioned in passing how important those guys are to him .. he's had his sister overdose twice on drugs -both times she pulled through... I just know HOW MUCH their support meant to him during times like that.. he doesn't really have any family except her....he calls us his closest friends.. we don't see him as much as in the past ..... so it's good he has that group to hang with.


Such truth here. I've been part of a twice monthly men's bible study and fellowship for about a year now, and just recently joined in the leadership team as one of the teachers. The meetings are like fresh water to the 15 or so regulars who show up. We worship together, pray together, discuss the word, discuss our lives, laugh, sometimes cry. It's very powerful.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Yea... my H has really started developing different types of bonds too, some based in activity and some not. Coworkers, the Men's Group at Church, and his pool team. The pool team flew to Vegas together in the Summer and placed 65th out of 650 teams from the US, Canada and Japan. It was a good time. He loves the winning. So I really like the variety in his life now. Before it was way too introverted and unhealthy as well as sedentary.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Jaquen said*:This is typical, but far from universal.
> 
> For example I have a lot of friends, as I've mentioned several times on this board; they range in age, background, race, ethnicity, perspective, etc. But almost none of my friendships are activity based. *When I meet up with a friend, it's almost always for lunch, a cup of coffee/tea, hanging out at my or their place, whatever, just to talk. Depending on the friendship we'll sit for hours talking about politics, spiritual matters, film, sports, women, sex, relationships, video games, whatever.* *And yes, emotions. *


 I just wanted to say...I really enjoyed reading your post Jaquen..... Yes... I know men like this.... that one friend I mentioned that goes to the Men's group is ALL THIS...a # of our guy friends are LIKE this... we enjoy them! They are more outgoing over my Husband though. 

I've found in life, many times those who enjoy a little debate are more OPEN like this. *These are our conversationalists*.. Nothing wrong with that [email protected]# 
We need them in male form too!...











> *I am an openly emotional man and I love to just listen to people, and when possible, offer insights. Because of that I seem to draw lots of men who need a place to be able to talk openly, freely, without judgement. I even have close and best friends who don't open up this way to any other people in their lives but me. *


 I imagine you always wear a ..show interest in people's lives... ask questions to pull them in...you get an "A" for "*approachable*".. 

I want to say something about my Husband in contrast... although he is not one to initiative much conversation, he is introverted-this explains some....not one jumping in .... 

What he is, however, is still very approachable.. HIS VIBE is "all good guy"... .people seem to trust his character.... at his work place.. so many of those guys have opened up to him about delicate issues.. like problems in their marriages , on a serious note, their sex lives, failures in the bedroom even! ... ha ha .....I guess they know he'll keep their secrets -which is very true... (though he does share all with yours truly -it stops with ME.. this is our code / our rule).. 



> *I'm close to quite a few fellas whose other friendships are activity based, where very little deeper stuff is discussed, but when hanging out with me are wellsprings of expression. In fact just last week a young pastor-in-training from my church said to me, a 24 year old man with a wife and 4 kids, that I'm about the only man he knows that he can just be completely open with. I am honored, and humbled, by those words. I truly believe this is one of my greater purposes in life*.


 I feel it's a grand purpose...Yes.... we need more approachable people who we feel "safe" opening up to.... Young pastor/ 24 with 4 kids already, DARN!



> *In my experience, men need to express. Many of us just don't have the tools to do that, or we don't find too many other people we can express with without feeling judged or weakened. Men are socialized to be emotionally distant, and silent, but that's not our inherent make up. We are different than women, but we are still very much human, and just as emotionally complex and alive.*


 Men do need this outlet with a select few ...so i feel.... Hopefully most can do this with their wives... 

I know for us.. this is the case -more than anyone else in his life ....I am his soft place to fall....and I am grateful ...


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Absolutely no question. I think all men need a close male friend, possibly one they have grown up with, who trust each other implicitly. 
They talk to and discuss anything knowing that it will go no further.

I have a couple of close male friends....but one in particular that I have known for 35 years. I know far more about him than his wife does and vice versa. We have seen each other at our worst and our best, picked each other up when we've fallen etc. 
We only see each other a couple of times a year as we live on different continents but there is a weekly flow of inane banter!

I also think it is very important for women to have that 'special' girlfriend with whom they can talk about anything knowing it is in total confidence....I think we all need someone outside of the family with whom we can relate to etc.

I'm not explaining this very well but I'm sure you see what I'm getting at!


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

The problem with questions like this on a marriage site with an infidelity section is there are plenty of friends of the husband that were close and the wife, during a period of confusion and desperation, searched for clues from this friend to solve the issues. If you've been here reading at all, I don't have to finish. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I don't know what to say.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

jaquen said:


> This is typical, but far from universal.
> 
> For example I have a lot of friends, as I've mentioned several times on this board; they range in age, background, race, ethnicity, perspective, etc. But almost none of my friendships are activity based. When I meet up with a friend, it's almost always for lunch, a cup of coffee/tea, hanging out at my or their place, whatever, just to talk. Depending on the friendship we'll sit for hours talking about politics, spiritual matters, film, sports, women, sex, relationships, video games, whatever. And yes, emotions. I am an openly emotional man and I love to just listen to people, and when possible, offer insights. Because of that I seem to draw lots of men who need a place to be able to talk openly, freely, without judgement. I even have close and best friends who don't open up this way to any other people in their lives but me. I'm close to quite a few fellas whose other friendships are activity based, where very little deeper stuff is discussed, but when hanging out with me are wellsprings of expression. In fact just last week a young pastor-in-training from my church said to me, a 24 year old man with a wife and 4 kids, that I'm about the only man he knows that he can just be completely open with. I am honored, and humbled, by those words. I truly believe this is one of my greater purposes in life.
> 
> *In my experience, men need to express. Many of us just don't have the tools to do that, or we don't find too many other people we can express with without feeling judged or weakened*. Men are socialized to be emotionally distant, and silent, but that's not our inherent make up. We are different than women, but we are still very much human, and just as emotionally complex and alive.


YES! I think this is the key and not just for men but for women as well.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

For a young man, male bonding is a primal necessity for his initiation into manhood. A great example of this is in Chasing Mavericks film, where the teen is challenged and tested by an elder until he is ready...and then invited to join the ranks of the adults...in the kid's case, to actually be welcomed into the extreme wave surfers' group. One of my favorite scenes is when the mentor, who had been relentlessly ON this kid almost mercilessly, goes to the guys and vouches for him...knowing that the kid was READY. This is what male initiation is about.

It's important for men to be surrounded by other guys who will keep him honest and will get in his face when he is missing the mark. Yet, being in this position is uncomfortable for many men because it seems we have a natural inclination to isolate into our own castles...or not want anyone to challenge us. Also, there are many men who fail to see or avoid opportunities where they can actually make a difference in someone's life.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Totally agree Former... My H's mentor is excellent at holding my H accountable without shaming. He is just very plain spoken and accurate to a point where my H sees no reason to argue about it, so he just accepts it. He is kind about it making acceptance palatable.


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## lifeisbetterthanalternat (Apr 24, 2012)

SpinDaddy said:


> In part, it’s a cultural phenomenon, it wasn’t all that long ago (1970’s) that the infrastructure which engenders “male only” socialization (things like lodges, fraternal society’s, and etc.)were categorically vilified and have or are largely disappearing.
> 
> Male Roles and Expectations on me as a Gen X male are dramatically different that those of my father a Baby-Boomer and those of my grandfather a WWII man. I am far more involved in the day-to-day aspects of our family than either my father or grandfather were. Going off for a week with the boys just isn’t in the mix.
> 
> ...


I could not agree with you more daddy. I would add that much of this adds up to demasculinizing men (spelling i know). There are many great men that did great things that relied on the brotherhood and company of other men. I think that both genders benefit from girl get togethers and guys night. I don't think they have to include strip clubs/night club as they dilute the purpose.


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## lifeisbetterthanalternat (Apr 24, 2012)

jld said:


> I hear you, SA. My husband would always rather hang with our kids and me. Turned down a Super Bowl party invite from his boss just to be with us.
> 
> He knows his priorities.


While i respect your and many of your posts, you comment drips with guilt. So if your husband decided to blow off steam with the guys....he would somehow be doing the wrong thing? Surely he hears your message. 

I think that men should be good fathers and "lead" their children in equal partnership with their wives. That does not necessarily mean that they need to attend every athletic event, practice or "family quality time" that i hear many women talk about. 

I know many men that don't spend time with the guys because they recognize what should be "their priorities" should be. I think that men benefit from male company. Many have jobs that fulfill this while others do not. Regardless, women should be careful that THEY are not the ones making the decision for their husbands (consciously or otherwise).


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

lifeisbetterthanalternat said:


> While i respect your and many of your posts, you comment drips with guilt. So if your husband decided to blow off steam with the guys....he would somehow be doing the wrong thing? Surely he hears your message.
> 
> I think that men should be good fathers and "lead" their children in equal partnership with their wives. That does not necessarily mean that they need to attend every athletic event, practice or "family quality time" that i hear many women talk about.
> 
> I know many men that don't spend time with the guys because they recognize what should be "their priorities" should be. I think that men benefit from male company. Many have jobs that fulfill this while others do not. Regardless, women should be careful that THEY are not the ones making the decision for their husbands (consciously or otherwise).


This.

Any implication that a man spending bonding time his male friends somehow suggests that his priorities are askew is stunning, and sad. Many men lose contact with vital friendships due to this flawed, if well meaning, take on marriage and family.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

lifeisbetterthanalternat said:


> While i respect your and many of your posts, you comment drips with guilt. So if your husband decided to blow off steam with the guys....he would somehow be doing the wrong thing? Surely he hears your message.
> 
> I think that men should be good fathers and "lead" their children in equal partnership with their wives. *That does not necessarily mean that they need to attend every athletic event, practice or "family quality time" that i hear many women talk about.*
> 
> I know many men that don't spend time with the guys because they recognize what should be "their priorities" should be. I think that men benefit from male company. Many have jobs that fulfill this while others do not. *Regardless, women should be careful that THEY are not the ones making the decision for their husbands (consciously or otherwise)*.


Myself and JLD met in real life... we spent a whole day together.. talking about many things, family, husbands and all... her H and mine are just naturally LIKE THIS.... there is no compulsion by us....* it's what they want*.. as I have tried to lay out in my post as articulately as I could..

We give them NO GUILT..(at least I am speaking here from my own end now)... If I had to compare myself to my own husband ....*HE is more the one making **me* *feel guilty* if I wanted to blow off going to a son's race or a Band concert they are in.. Yes he's done that [email protected]#$%...

He will say to me.. "they'll only be with us so many years" pulling at the heart strings.. 

Of course I can't speak for Jld here...if she does it subtlety or not...though He is quite the Man's man, does what he wants -so I get that Vibe... (haven't met him yet)...I doubt she would even get away with it!!


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Most people are happier when they are in social groups but the group structure doesn't have to be all men or all women. Whether it's other couples, family, or the guys, the important part is sharing time with other people. Yesterday we took a hike with my brother and his wife and our oldest son and his son. No hooters necessary. This morning my brother went hiking with some work buddies and we were planning to ride the bike with a friend and his wife. We backed out because the hike kicked our butts yesterday but there again there is no Hooters or alcohol necessary.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

To me the critical part is that men can have guy time if they need it and women can have girl time if they need it. The real problem is when the spouse is so jealous or insecure that their partner feels trapped. And then if both spouses are jealous or insecure then it's even worse because they are trapped by the own convert contract. That's a recipe for disaster.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

I guess i need human interaction, but i don't need a lot of it, and i think a lot of it is a mental thing. I am closest with my brother and cousin, as far as peers. Then there are my parents and kids, and there are co-workers and acquaintances. Even though I may spend an entire day alone, for example, I know in the back of my mind that I have some people in my life. 

If all these people were removed from my life and I felt like I didn't have anyone beyond an acquaintance, that would probably feel strange.

However, I don't crave a lot of human interaction to be happy.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Too many loners ain't good.


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