# EA or friendship? Need some help please



## wally123 (Jan 9, 2014)

Like many other folks here, I have been lurking around for a few weeks trying to get a feel for things before I ventured into posting myself. So here goes!
Some basic information first - I've been married for 23 years, most of it very happily. We've had no serious marital issues, have 2 great kids (now teens) and are both working. My wife recently graduated from a 4-year program that was done mostly by correspondence, however 2 times per year she had to travel to another city for a 3 week duration for classroom sessions. All this was done while she was also working full-time. Obviously this was a very busy time for her (working, taking courses - reading text books/writing papers/etc, and family life). During that time I supported her as much as I could by helping with the kids, housework, shopping, and so on. Looking back on it now, I can see that it did take a toll on my emotional needs. But, trying to be a good dad and husband, I sucked it up.
Now the issue - whenever she was out of town for the course, we would sometimes communicate by Facetime on our iPads. If you are familiar with Apple products (iPads, iPhones, etc) you may know that when using one Apple ID account, sometimes messages can get sent between individual devices. That occurred once when I noticed a Facetime (like Skype) request and a text message coming in to my iPad from another man (meant to be sent to wife's iPad). This was while she was away. The OM is an older colleague and I didn't really think about it at the time. I mentioned it to her and she must have changed her settings as no further messages came through to me. Now fast-forward about a year to last November. I saw a text message come through to her phone from the OM. They were attending a meeting for later that night and my wife was running a little late I guess, and he was wondering where she was. I spotted her reply to him - which was "sick kid, husband (me) freaking out" and "lunch tomorrow?". That reply bothered my because a) no kid was sick, b) I certainly wasn't freaking out about anything and c) what's this about lunch?
The following weekend she was away attending a conference and I decided to do some snooping. She had her computer with her, but I found an older computer that still have email messages from 2011 and 2012. I came across probably around 50 emails between them, about half were mainly about work, but the other half discussed having lunches together (with "the usual place" being referenced), many from the OM say things like "thanks for the call last night, it came at a perfect time", "looking forward to our next meeting" or simply "thanks". Most of these types of replies were from him, not my wife. I got the impression that he was more involved in this friendship than her, however they still appear to have met many times for lunches together,
SO, when she came home I asked her about this guy. I only referred to the 2 messages that came through on my iPad when she was away, and the text that I saw on her phone. I did not talk about the 50 emails from her old computer. I asked if they were friends, do they meet a lot, why hadn't I ever known about this friendship? She looked embarrassed, said that she did not really like him, does not consider him a friend, and that she just kept in contact as he is a colleague in the type of work she is involved in (more for political reasons). She was adamant about the "does not even like him" part. I left it alone for a few days to ponder (stew). It didn't seem to ring true to me though, why would she continue to be involved with him (I'm not sure exactly what type of relationship it is) when she so adamantly stated that she didn't like him? I then approached her again and decided to come clean - I showed her some of the emails that I found that referred to regular lunches, missing or thinking of you (his comments - not my wife's). Well - that did not go over very well. Rather than trying to get some sort of answer from her about what was going on, I was on the receiving end of some pretty nasty stuff, like how I betrayed her trust by snooping, I'm trying to control her (even compared my actions to what abusers do), and I got the silent treatment for about 2 weeks. Since that time I've managed to find some more stuff - they did communicate over Facetime (like Skype) when she was away. He is one of her top 9 friends on her Facebook page, the emails have continued since 2012 indicating regular communications, cell phone records also show regular communication. I would have to say though, based on what I have read, he appears to be much more needy and showing affection than she is. But what I don't know is why she is continuing with this relationship. Is it an EA? Could it be a one-sided EA from his side? Are they just friends? Maybe she doesn't know how to get out of it. Like I said, he is an older colleague and there may be political reasons for her to maintain some sort of connection. I don't believe there is or was a PA (he is married, pretty conservative, not particularly attractive - I'm not entirely ruling it out but my gut feel is no). Any suggestions?


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

"Thou doth protest to much" 

My guess, her guilt betrays her. She got upset with you "snooping" because she knows what she was doing is wrong. 

She deflected the issue by blaming you and you argued about that not about the behaviour of a married woman. She is upset about you questioning her trust because she has become untrustworthy, you caught her and her actions speak louder than words. 

She is minimizing how she feels about this guy so you look bad for questioning her. "I don't even really like him" - yeah that's why you go to lunch so often. Look at what she shows you not what she tells you. 

50 emails is a lot. Not to mention the time they may spend talking on the phone that you know nothing about.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

wally123 said:


> Like many other folks here, I have been lurking around for a few weeks trying to get a feel for things before I ventured into posting myself. So here goes!
> Some basic information first - I've been married for 23 years, most of it very happily. We've had no serious marital issues, have 2 great kids (now teens) and are both working. My wife recently graduated from a 4-year program that was done mostly by correspondence, however 2 times per year she had to travel to another city for a 3 week duration for classroom sessions. All this was done while she was also working full-time. Obviously this was a very busy time for her (working, taking courses - reading text books/writing papers/etc, and family life). During that time I supported her as much as I could by helping with the kids, housework, shopping, and so on. Looking back on it now, I can see that it did take a toll on my emotional needs. But, trying to be a good dad and husband, I sucked it up.
> Now the issue - whenever she was out of town for the course, we would sometimes communicate by Facetime on our iPads. If you are familiar with Apple products (iPads, iPhones, etc) you may know that when using one Apple ID account, sometimes messages can get sent between individual devices. That occurred once when I noticed a Facetime (like Skype) request and a text message coming in to my iPad from another man (meant to be sent to wife's iPad). This was while she was away. The OM is an older colleague and I didn't really think about it at the time. I mentioned it to her and she must have changed her settings as no further messages came through to me. Now fast-forward about a year to last November. I saw a text message come through to her phone from the OM. They were attending a meeting for later that night and my wife was running a little late I guess, and he was wondering where she was. I spotted her reply to him - which was "sick kid, husband (me) freaking out" and "lunch tomorrow?". That reply bothered my because a) no kid was sick, b) I certainly wasn't freaking out about anything and c) what's this about lunch?
> The following weekend she was away attending a conference and I decided to do some snooping. She had her computer with her, but I found an older computer that still have email messages from 2011 and 2012. I came across probably around 50 emails between them, about half were mainly about work, but the other half discussed having lunches together (with "the usual place" being referenced), many from the OM say things like "thanks for the call last night, it came at a perfect time", "looking forward to our next meeting" or simply "thanks". Most of these types of replies were from him, not my wife. I got the impression that he was more involved in this friendship than her, however they still appear to have met many times for lunches together,
> *SO, when she came home I asked her about this guy. I only referred to the 2 messages that came through on my iPad when she was away, and the text that I saw on her phone. I did not talk about the 50 emails from her old computer. I asked if they were friends, do they meet a lot, why hadn't I ever known about this friendship? She looked embarrassed, said that she did not really like him, does not consider him a friend, and that she just kept in contact as he is a colleague in the type of work she is involved in (more for political reasons). She was adamant about the "does not even like him" part. I left it alone for a few days to ponder (stew). It didn't seem to ring true to me though, why would she continue to be involved with him (I'm not sure exactly what type of relationship it is) when she so adamantly stated that she didn't like him? I then approached her again and decided to come clean - I showed her some of the emails that I found that referred to regular lunches, missing or thinking of you (his comments - not my wife's). Well - that did not go over very well. Rather than trying to get some sort of answer from her about what was going on, I was on the receiving end of some pretty nasty stuff, like how I betrayed her trust by snooping, I'm trying to control her (even compared my actions to what abusers do), and I got the silent treatment for about 2 weeks. Since that time I've managed to find some more stuff - they did communicate over Facetime (like Skype) when she was away. He is one of her top 9 friends on her Facebook page, the emails have continued since 2012 indicating regular communications, cell phone records also show regular communication. I would have to say though, based on what I have read, he appears to be much more needy and showing affection than she is. But what I don't know is why she is continuing with this relationship. Is it an EA? Could it be a one-sided EA from his side? Are they just friends? Maybe she doesn't know how to get out of it. Like I said, he is an older colleague and there may be political reasons for her to maintain some sort of connection. *I don't believe there is or was a PA (he is married, pretty conservative, not particularly attractive - I'm not entirely ruling it out but my gut feel is no). Any suggestions?


All of the signs are there.

Lying
Deception
Trick Truth
Gaslighting
Blameshifting


But the worst of all of these signs is the lack of remorse and her refusal to remove herself from the OM.

Not a good sign.
Not a good position to be in at all.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Look up the Cheaters Script: she is following it to the letter. She is EXTREMELY mad that you found out, which means that she has more, MUCH MUCH more to hide than you found out.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

And look up a member named "weightlifter". He will tell you just what to do.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

So if he is so important to her, and will not go NC with him, 
you should file for divorce.

She is deep in the affair with him. Put a keylogger on her computer. 

I would file for divorce. She is already had an affair with him.

Ask her if they used protection.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Ask her to take a polygraph test and see her reaction. Heck she was already all defensive forget it. Find out if the OM has a wife or GF and let her know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

Tell her you want the truth. You can get it from her, or you will go to him, or better yet, his wife. IF she is unwilling to give you an explanation. You will have no choice but to assume it's ana affair and will proceede as such. Then just leave and let her decide what she wants to do.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

One of the few things i got right on confronting my wifes EA.

Her: you snooped, its none of your business.
Me: you married me, you are my business.

Shortly followed by: him or me. Pick ONE.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ask her how she would feel if you had done these same things with a female co-worker, and had not told her.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

In addition to what the other posters have said. Don't think an affair isn't possible because he is older and unattractive. I'm amazed at how my single older colleagues in their fifties that would be considered "average" at best are able to date attractive women as young as 28. He is definitely a threat.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

You ask EA or friendship ? A secretive friendship like this is an EA!

She is not only in an EA with this guy but is also (typically) being disrespectful to you and is also blame shifting etc. There is a strong chance that this has gone PA too given the length of time and number of communications. You need to dig deeper, VARs, key loggers and find out more before confronting - she has already been tipped off and could be taking this further underground.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Ok, any post above, or strategy that you devise that presumes rationality, fairness, compassion for you? Forget it, that's out the window. You have at the very least a raging EA. You can only hope that's all it is. Never threaten to talk to him, useless unless you've got hard evidence, or his wife. You just do that sort of thing, you don't provide a warning.

You've made the task of finding out what's really going on a lot harder, if you don't want to take a very hard line. That would consist of consulting the best lawyer you can find, serving her papers and making a polygraph a necessary precondition to having the first second thought about it(as far as she knows). That can be successfully done if you have resolve. It's deadly serious, but you treat it like a poker game and play to win, ruthlessly.

The soft option is to stfu about it, pretend to rugsweep, and employ every means of covert intelligence gathering you can muster. Spyware, key logger, V.A.R., email recovery, text recovery. Anything and everything. You likely won't get a shred of truth out of her until she believes you already know it. Never reveal a source again, directly or indirectly. Figure out exactly what's going on, then decide what you want to do about it.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Her actions spoke much louder than her words

If there was nothing going on, she would have made an attempt to prove it to you,---AND SHE WOULD HAVE GONE NC

If she doesn't like the guy---WHY WOULD SHE REPEATEDLY, MEET UP WITH HIM---as to whatever political significance is involved---I am sure that does not include----repeated meetings ONLY INVOLVING THE 2 OF THEM

Her actions speak very loud and clear, something is going on---as to looks---beauty is only skin deep-----you need to put your foot down, and demand NC, if she refuses, you know where your mge. is----and you can make any further decisions from that point.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Brokenshadows wife had a PA with a fat bald old dude.

Never seen him but statistics say she was trading down.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I think the easiest, quickest way to deal with this is to tell her:

"I am not comfortable with this, whether it is an affair, friendship, or work/political. I am asking you nicely to put a stop to this. I don't care what it is, but it's him or me."

If she protests, don't argue with her, remain calm. Tell her it's not about you being suspicious, per se, that it's about how she has reacted to your questions.

If she brings up the snooping, then ask her (calmly) how SHE would have handled messages to you, from some woman, coming through accidentally to her iPad, and whether that would raise any suspicion in her. She's lying if she says no.

"Snooping", to me, is totally justified if something appears wrong. You share a life, a house, finances, etc. You're not going through your friends medicine cabinet while at their house or something - that's snooping.

However, to play devil's advocate, she may be telling the truth. It may be entirely work-related, and he may be a creep that she doesn't like, but in order to maintain her career (or chances at career advancement) she may feel like she HAS to "play nice" with him. She may know full well what this guy is expecting from her, but will never, ever go that route. Perhaps she's terrified that if she doesn't play nice with him, her career could suffer.

Maybe the reason she never told you about all of this is because she feels like she is being sexually harassed by a senior co-worker, and that by telling you, she knows it will blow up and her career could be over. Perhaps she is embarrassed. Perhaps she feels she can handle this harassment on her own without running to her protective husband.

You have said that you have not found anything particularly incriminating on her part. You insinuate that it is HE who is crossing lines in these emails, not her. That is a GOOD sign, and is why I can play devil's advocate with this.

What I DON'T like about this, is her inability to (so far) not be defensive about it. It MAY BE that she is hiding more from you, but it could also just be her personality. Many people feel like these things are an invasion of privacy, no matter how the other one feels. If she feels she is acting in good faith in regards to your marriage, then I can see how she would be upset that you are showing signs of mistrust.

What she is not realizing, is how bad it LOOKS, regardless of whether it IS bad or totally innocent. How something appears can be different to both parties. If it never even crossed her mind until you insinuated it, that it looks like she could be having an affair, then she will not react accordingly. She will act insulted and hurt and feel that you don't trust her.

It could just be that she's ashamed that she (especially as a woman) is being coerced into being nice to a creepy older guy who could have an impact on her career. The embarrassment of this alone could have been enough to not tell you.

I agree that defensiveness is not always a good sign... however her defensiveness could very well be her realization that her husband of XXX years does not trust her. If she truly has not done anything with this guy, doesn't plan on it, and really doesn't like him (as she has said), then it can be easy for her to be upset at your mistrust.


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## damagedgoods1 (Nov 8, 2013)

alexm said:


> However, to play devil's advocate, she may be telling the truth. It may be entirely work-related, and he may be a creep that she doesn't like, but in order to maintain her career (or chances at career advancement) she may feel like she HAS to "play nice" with him. She may know full well what this guy is expecting from her, but will never, ever go that route. Perhaps she's terrified that if she doesn't play nice with him, her career could suffer.
> 
> Maybe the reason she never told you about all of this is because she feels like she is being sexually harassed by a senior co-worker, and that by telling you, she knows it will blow up and her career could be over.


As a career oriented wife, I can see the the point that alexm is making here. Many career oriented women are too scared to report sexual harassment in the work place for fear of ending our own careers.

Perhaps she realized that this OM had "feelings" for her and as alexm said, she decided to try to handle things on her own. Her defensiveness could be guilt that she knew his feelings for her and didn't actively stop it.

*I'd be really interested to hear about someone's experience / perspective on a one-sided EA and how it lines up or doesn't line up with the OPs story.*

Either way, she should have been more open and honest with you about the whole thing. If she can't do that going forward, that's not good.


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## wally123 (Jan 9, 2014)

Wow .... thanks for all the replies and advice so far. Honestly, my head is spinning. I think I need to take a day or two to settle my mind down before I take the next step. It's too easy to simply go off the deep end. I few things I have noticed within the last week - there has been a reduction in the cell phone calls, emails and facebook messaging (he appears to not be in the top 9 friends anymore). However, I am not naïve to think that whatever is going on is over. Some of you are recommending I install a VAR in her car - any more thoughts on this? Is that the only way to get piece of mind?


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## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

wally123 said:


> Wow .... thanks for all the replies and advice so far. Honestly, my head is spinning. I think I need to take a day or two to settle my mind down before I take the next step. It's too easy to simply go off the deep end. I few things I have noticed within the last week - there has been a reduction in the cell phone calls, emails and facebook messaging (he appears to not be in the top 9 friends anymore). However, I am not naïve to think that whatever is going on is over. Some of you are recommending I install a VAR in her car - any more thoughts on this? Is that the only way to get piece of mind?


Oh, I hate to say it...

It could also mean that she's started up a new email address. She could be permanently deleting facebook messages, she could be speaking to him on the phone. You just don't really know...

I'm not saying that it IS what happened, but that it's a possibility.

Sorry.


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## radrobe (Jun 17, 2013)

*Re: Re: EA or friendship? Need some help please*



wally123 said:


> Wow .... thanks for all the replies and advice so far. Honestly, my head is spinning. I think I need to take a day or two to settle my mind down before I take the next step. It's too easy to simply go off the deep end. I few things I have noticed within the last week - there has been a reduction in the cell phone calls, emails and facebook messaging (he appears to not be in the top 9 friends anymore). However, I am not naïve to think that whatever is going on is over. Some of you are recommending I install a VAR in her car - any more thoughts on this? Is that the only way to get piece of mind?


Wally, 

Now is the time to go nuclear. Find out whatever you can about OM. Tell his wife or SO about the affair. Tell both sides of the family about the affair. Do the 180. File. 

You should assume it went physical because they were alone together a lot. You need shock and awe her. You can gather evidence like people are advocating, but honestly, I think it's a full blown PA based upon her reaction. Let her chase you if she wants you. 

Btw, my wife had an affair with a coworker who was 12 Years older. It can happen.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

From what you say here I would say the man is infatuated with your wife and like she said, she is not interested. Why she continues? That might depend on her personality. She might even be flattered but not interested.


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## damagedgoods1 (Nov 8, 2013)

Hate to say it too, but if you can see a reduction in phone calls and messaging, then it looks like their relationship has gone underground or she has told him, "My husband is onto us, we need to cool it for now."
If she were completely innocent and this friendship was only not to jeopardize her career, she would have said to you, "Hey you know what, I can see your point and I'm going to distance myself from OM. I'm putting our marriage first and I'll keep my messages to the OM strictly business related going forward." AND then you would have seen the reduction in communications.

But for her to give you the silent treatment and then you see a reduction in communications is a red flag to me.

The reason I was willing to give your wife the benefit of the doubt in my previous post is because the situation you described did not fit the "standard EA" that I have seen on this forum. Generally when the BS discovers the messages from the WS to the OM/OW, the WS sends self-incriminating messages or at least reciprocal "love you / miss you / me too" messages, but you said you did not see that in your investigation.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Say nothing. VAR her car. 

Colleagues can have opposite sex friends. But is your wife so weak that she would go to lunch with him over and over uf his company annoyed her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

As previous posters have mentioned she may take it personally that you are questioning her trust. 

That being said did she ever mention going for lunch with this OM to you? 

If you were seeing a female co-worker and had lunch with her would you mention it to your wife or if you knew in advance would you say " I'm meeting so and so for lunch today". 

It would seem they have had lunch often enough together to have a "usual place".


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

LongWalk said:


> Say nothing. VAR her car.
> 
> Colleagues can have opposite sex friends. But is your wife so weak that she would go to lunch with him over and over uf his company annoyed her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she thought her career could be jeopardized because of it, yes.

We men don't know what it's like to be a woman in the workplace, and the things that some of them feel they need to put up with to get ahead.

Look, I'm not naïve enough to think there's nothing going on - I'm saying it's a possibility that all is not what it seems.

And, as usual, the same people come out on this forum and immediately, IMMEDIATELY, jump to "affair".

It certainly sounds like one... but... BUT:

If this IS a case of a woman having to put up with **** in the workplace, and she is not AT ALL doing anything sneaky behind hubby's back, do you really think she is going to be impressed with her husbands lack of faith in her?

GD, people... It's one thing to provide your opinion on what it MAY be, and how it SEEMS like it's (A) or (B), but to state, in writing that it IS, and you better start getting divorce papers in order, and "go nuclear" and use every available means to spy on every move and every word is horrific, horrific advice. I don't care if OP comes back in 2 months with proof that there was an EA or PA - right now, it's much too early for anyone to emphatically state that it is (based on their own unfortunate experiences and really nothing else).

OP, clear your head, then trust your GUT. Don't blindly follow advice unless YOU think it's a good idea, or it's something YOU would do under normal circumstances. You know your wife, yourself, and this situation better than we do.

Tell her your concerns, and why you have them. She may not see what this looks like to you (if it's nothing).


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## radrobe (Jun 17, 2013)

*Re: Re: EA or friendship? Need some help please*



alexm said:


> And, as usual, the same people come out on this forum and immediately, IMMEDIATELY, jump to "affair"./QUOTE]
> 
> What you're not saying it's that every story has the exact same plot. Please, find a false positive thread. I'm sure one exists, I've just never seen it.
> 
> I'd bet 5 grand straight up that this is a PA.


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

alexm said:


> And, as usual, the same people come out on this forum and immediately, IMMEDIATELY, jump to "affair".


It's called "playing the percentages." I think every single box is checked off on my "Signs of an affair" card.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

> If she thought her career could be jeopardized because of it, yes.
> 
> We men don't know what it's like to be a woman in the workplace, and the things that some of them feel they need to put up with to get ahead.
> 
> ...


You know, I've seen you post this countering opinion in several threads, calling out "the same people" for always jumping to the affair conclusion. Have you ever been right? Can you point to a thread where "the same people" jumped to affair, you said maybe not, and you were right? I'll bet you "the same people" can point out threads where they were proven right. Can you claim the same credibility?


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

I think the likelihood of an affair is very high. Still there is a chance the wife is innocently bungling a embarrassment situation, a very slim one. So, if he wants to give her the benefit of that slim doubt, he should employ means to ascertain the nature of their relationship, covertly, because it may not be innocent at all.

pm weightlifter for the rundown on the VAR. The model, how to attach it, etc, etc. 

Do you have the name of the restaurant? If they are regulars, then it would be worth your time to go there. The staff should recognize her and may shed light on the appearance of the nature of their lunches, if lunch isn't a code word.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

wally123 said:


> Wow .... thanks for all the replies and advice so far. Honestly, my head is spinning. I think I need to take a day or two to settle my mind down before I take the next step. It's too easy to simply go off the deep end. I few things I have noticed within the last week - there has been a reduction in the cell phone calls, emails and facebook messaging (he appears to not be in the top 9 friends anymore). However, I am not naïve to think that whatever is going on is over. Some of you are recommending I install a VAR in her car - any more thoughts on this? Is that the only way to get piece of mind?


 In your first post you stated that "I showed her some of the emails that I found that referred to regular lunches, missing or thinking of you (his comments - not my wife's). Well - that did not go over very well. Rather than trying to get some sort of answer from her about what was going on, I was on the receiving end of some pretty nasty stuff, like how I betrayed her trust by snooping, I'm trying to control her (even compared my actions to what abusers do), and I got the silent treatment for about 2 weeks." Sorry to say but this is exactly how a person in an emotional affair ("EA") and/or physical affair ("PA") reacts when you show them the evidence. They know that best defense is a good offense. They have no other choice but to attack at full power, because to do anything else would mean at the very lease ending the affair. The silent treat is good for someone in an affair because it means that she does not have answer your questions and does not have to promise you that she will discontinue contact with the affair partner. 

The truth is that other than when you are in the bathroom, their is no expectation of privacy in a marriage. Also, being married is by definition an agreement to be controlled when it comes to relationship with members of the opposite sex. Therefore, as a married person she cannot tell you that you as her spouse has not say so in establishing opposite sex friend boundaries. 

The best odds to save your marriage is to get her to end contact with the other man immediately. You must be willing to file for divorce if she does not go full no contact with this other man ("OM"), and agrees to full mutual transpancy (which includes both sharing all passwords), to get someone to end a potential affair. If she will let you divorce her in order to let her keep the relationship with this OM, then your marraige was coming to an end anyway. You should matter more to her than that. You can always stop the divorce if she takes actions to deserve you not going through with it. BTW, cheaters will always say that they are willing to go through with the divorce out of the principle that they do not want to be controlled. Do not buy into this. If you have a long track record of never before making such a demand, the principle they are fighting for is not for a general rule, but to keep this specif other man in her life, and she would not do that if he were just a friend. I do not know how far she is involved with the OM, so it is not a sure thing that she will pick you over the OM, but the longer that you wait, the lower the odds that she will pick you in the long run. If you are weak now, you will regret it later. When she tries to blame shift onto you, remember that you are both 50%-50% responsible for the condition of the marraige, but the cheater is 100% responsible for the affair. Cheating is never done to fix a marraige. Good luck and be well.


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## radrobe (Jun 17, 2013)

*Re: Re: EA or friendship? Need some help please*



SadandAngry said:


> I think the likelihood of an affair is very high. Still there is a chance the wife is innocently bungling a embarrassment situation, a very slim one. So, if he wants to give her the benefit of that slim doubt, he should employ means to ascertain the nature of their relationship, covertly, because it may not be innocent at all.
> 
> pm weightlifter for the rundown on the VAR. The model, how to attach it, etc, etc.
> 
> Do you have the name of the restaurant? If they are regulars, then it would be worth your time to go there. The staff should recognize her and may shed light on the appearance of the nature of their lunches, if lunch isn't a code word.


Best case scenario its an EA. 

His wife purposely hid a significant male friendship from her husband. There's no defending that. 

Means, opportunity, and her reaction to confronting her makes me almost certain it's a PA. 

If OP needs a smoking gun to see the writing on the wall, investigate further. I think acting as if it's a full blown PA and throwing down the gauntlet will be most effective. The longer be waits, the weaker he looks now after WWs ridiculous response to confrontation.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

radrobe said:


> alexm said:
> 
> 
> > And, as usual, the same people come out on this forum and immediately, IMMEDIATELY, jump to "affair"..
> ...


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

I think you mean to say they DO need to go all 007 before they go nuclear, to be positive it is warranted?


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

alexm said:


> I am of the firm belief that more digging needs to be done before anyone starts going 007 on their spouse, for the reason above.


What's the difference between digging and going 007? I thought they were the same thing.:scratchhead:


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Nucking Futs said:


> What's the difference between digging and going 007? I thought they were the same thing.:scratchhead:


Talking, communicating, involving the other party.

This could also involve getting in touch with the OM/OW and see what they have to say about it. I think OP should be doing that asap, and it's within his rights to do so.

Going 007, to me, is the VARS, GPS tracking, keyloggers, etc. Stuff that is surreptitious, and done without the spouses knowledge. I am not a fan, BUT I can see where and when it is warranted.

But those should never be step #1.

On the slight chance there is nothing going on, how do you think OP's spouse would react to essentially being spied on? And how do you think OP will feel about himself after doing those types of things and not finding a thing?

Notice I said "slight". I am not a moron and actually think that 99% of these posts aren't what they seem to be. I am saying that we have to be cognizant that if even 1% are not that, then some of this advice could effectively implode a marriage.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

AVR1962 said:


> From what you say here I would say the man is infatuated with your wife and like she said, she is not interested. Why she continues? That might depend on her personality. She might even be flattered but not interested.


No. They regularly meet at "the usual place." Which is probably a motel.

GPS her car when you do the VAR, then you'll find out which place is "usual."


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

alexm said:


> Talking, communicating, involving the other party.
> 
> This could also involve getting in touch with the OM/OW and see what they have to say about it. I think OP should be doing that asap, and it's within his rights to do so.
> 
> ...


Ok, we're already past the first step in this case, and all she gave him was more reason to be suspicious.

She got a nice big neon sign, telling her to cover her tracks better, he's suspicious. He has made it very much harder to a) find evidence of wrongdoing and b) believe it if he finds nothing incriminating.

Beyond this particular case, I find your advice to be naive and misguided. Of course I do, I had my trust abused in exactly the manner we are talking about. I was lucky though. Even after the initial tip off she gave (changed fb password), I did not suspect an affair. I wanted to see why. It took a few days to get my answer, but I got the unvarnished truth. Way more than I ever got from her voluntarily.

The time to go 007 is while they still think you are a blind fool, not after you tell them you have suspicions. Say this is the best case scenario. She is getting harassed by this gentleman. That is something you definitely need to be sharing with your spouse. This isn't an episode of Three's Company. Hilarity will not ensue from this misunderstanding. Her actions are the catalyst for his suspicion, rightfully so, regardless of if she is cheating or not. He has every right to take action to uncover the truth for himself. Without her input, because a universal truth is that cheaters lie, and he cannot take that chance.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

SadandAngry said:


> Ok, we're already past the first step in this case, and all she gave him was more reason to be suspicious.
> 
> *She got a nice big neon sign, telling her to cover her tracks better, he's suspicious. He has made it very much harder to a) find evidence of wrongdoing and b) believe it if he finds nothing incriminating.*
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

You're incredibly naive if you think tipping her off that you suspect her _before_ investigating is going to work. There are many cases of weak confronts without evidence that cause the cheater to take steps to hide any evidence. Look at rdmu for instance, he asked, she denied and actually stopped the affair for 6 weeks thinking that would be long enough for his suspicion to die down, then she brought the om into his bed while he was out of town. Rdmu about broke under the strain during those 6 weeks, and it could have been avoided if he had found TAM a little sooner and followed the directions you think are so wrong.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Nucking Futs said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> You're incredibly naive if you think tipping her off that you suspect her _before_ investigating is going to work. There are many cases of weak confronts without evidence that cause the cheater to take steps to hide any evidence. Look at rdmu for instance, he asked, she denied and actually stopped the affair for 6 weeks thinking that would be long enough for his suspicion to die down, then she brought the om into his bed while he was out of town. Rdmu about broke under the strain during those 6 weeks, and it could have been avoided if he had found TAM a little sooner and followed the directions you think are so wrong.


I see your points, and don't discount them. And I'm not going to say "but", and continue on. I see your points, all of them, from all of you who feel this is the best advice. I do not disagree.

Where I see an opportunity to give her a chance, you guys see an opportunity to burn the **** out of her, and that's where our differences lie.

What I am advocating is that OP - and sometimes others - treat this scenario with a modicum of respect prior to doing anything extreme. It IS extreme to bug your wife's car, GPS her phone, hire a PI, or look into divorce papers - NOW. Not in the future, if one feels it's necessary.

OP says he doesn't feel his wife is having an affair, yet there's enough circumstantial evidence to point to the contrary - I agree. However, he has not found anything concrete from HER, only from the OM. Her responses to his emails are rote and bland and suggestive of a one-sided thing happening.

I merely pointed out two things - that there is a possibility that it is not what it seems, and I outlined the scenario of her being bullied/harassed/coerced in the workplace. THIS would be an excellent place for OP to start with his wife. Point blank ask her if that's what it is. It could be that she is ashamed of how she's being treated, and that her career has led her to a place like this.

And second, as a consequence of no HARD evidence, it's, imo, in the OP's best interest to approach it at that level, rather than launch into adultery accusations.

If (*IF*) his wife is the victim of workplace coercion or harassment, she certainly isn't happy about it. Having the one man (emphasis on "man") in her life that is supposed to trust her completely turn around and show her no trust at all could be devastating not just to their marriage, but to her as a person.

You guys are spending too much time on the words and not enough on the people involved, and have lost sight of the fact that these are human beings with real issues that are not simply black and white, no matter what you think. This is not a choose your own adventure book where if you make the wrong choice you can go back and try again and nobody gets hurt.

I've said what I want to say about this, and I will not respond further. Feel free to get the last word in. OP has been given several different options and tactics and scenarios to think of, and he will choose the right one for him and for his situation.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

alexm said:


> I see your points, and don't discount them. And I'm not going to say "but", and continue on. I see your points, all of them, from all of you who feel this is the best advice. I do not disagree.
> 
> Where I see an opportunity to give her a chance, you guys see an opportunity to burn the **** out of her, and that's where our differences lie.
> 
> ...


That trust is a two way street. If your hypothesis was correct, then she should trust the one man in her life who is supposed to trust her completely. Asking her if x, y, or z (plausible reason) is the case when in fact it isn't, you've just handed her a plausible excuse. A way to deflect from the truth. Yes, she has a problem, in that xyz isn't the truth, but she can milk it. "Please let me handle it. Yes I should have told you, but I was so ashamed!" And BS relaxes, and she has time to figure out how to hide the truth.

I do see your point though. The evidence is circumstantial, if there was a full court press, and the spouse was not in fact wayward, then yes, some damage would be done. That could be remedied by showing the offended person the CWI forum here. Openness, honesty, communication, avoid those for whatever reason, and bad things happen.

Ps this isn't specifically for you Alex, it is to refine the point, and pass the lesson on.


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## PeaceTrain (Jun 25, 2011)

I don't want to hijack the thread. Anybody please tell me a model and make of a VAR. I am trying to find in eBay and amazon, but lot of them just a recorder not var. Recommend one that you liked or used.

Also, is there just GPS device that will track car? Please recommend one.

To the OP, why the heck you need so much advice for, what is these all debates about? You are suffering and not sure what's going on with your SO. This is enough reason to find out with VAR, GPS etc.

You don't need any more f-zing reasons. Your intention is good to save your marriage and you are suspicious about her. That's good enough.

Please don't waste time. Just go and do it my friend.


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## wally123 (Jan 9, 2014)

Hi again - I am the OP (I assume that means Original Poster?) - still figuring the acrynims of this site. 

Firstly, thanks for all the advice and opinions coming in from everybody -I know some of you have been through similar or worse circumstances and your comments are based on your personal experiences. I appreciate that. I also appreciate the balanced views from Alexm and the debate that it's generated.

Well, just when you think you've had enough lately to handle, we just received the news that my wife has been diagnosed with breast cancer. It is terrible news but it seems have brought us back together. I guess that's what a potentially life changing event can do to you. I had not yet confronted her again about the OM, I have not "gone nuclear" or done some of the other suggested actions. My focus is now with her and getting through this (surgery, radiation, etc). There is no way I am going to walk away now. 

However, I am a normal person with feelings and I still can't get my concerns out of my head. I just feel guiltier when I have them. Like Alexm said, there may be nothing physical going on. But am I still supposed to confront - say its either him or me - when she's just been diagnosed with cancer and now needs her husband more than ever?


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

wally123 said:


> Hi again - I am the OP (I assume that means Original Poster?) - still figuring the acrynims of this site.
> 
> Firstly, thanks for all the advice and opinions coming in from everybody -I know some of you have been through similar or worse circumstances and your comments are based on your personal experiences. I appreciate that. I also appreciate the balanced views from Alexm and the debate that it's generated.
> 
> ...


I was in a similar situation, Wally. I had definite knowledge of W's long-standing EA, plus other inappropriate relationships (all denied and lied about ad nauseum), and was taking initial steps to spring a surprise D on her when the cancer diagnosis came. I was able to put everything else aside in order to help her through. The problems still existed afterwards (she is now 5+ years cancer-free), but we were able to work on them. Things really didn't come to a head until last fall (after I found TAM), but the cancer gave me enough of a pause that I didn't pursue the D, and am glad I didn't. First things first.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Now is the time to be there for her. Put the issue aside, unless she brings it up. Be vigilant, don't ignore it. The OM will try to send her the message that if your not strong enough or there for her, he will be. The best way to block him is to fill your place in her life. That will be remembered. 

Still do your due diligence now. If it doesn't escalate, when the crises is over, you will need to address it. 

BTW, Have faith. My W was struck at mid life. We celebrate her 20th year as a survivor in March. 

Best wishes.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Get the book "Not JUST FRIENDS" ASAP. 
See what we're talking about. 
Here's the site for you...

Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends"


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## radrobe (Jun 17, 2013)

*Re: Re: EA or friendship? Need some help please*



wally123 said:


> Hi again - I am the OP (I assume that means Original Poster?) - still figuring the acrynims of this site.
> 
> Firstly, thanks for all the advice and opinions coming in from everybody -I know some of you have been through similar or worse circumstances and your comments are based on your personal experiences. I appreciate that. I also appreciate the balanced views from Alexm and the debate that it's generated.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear the news. Be there for her.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wally123 said:


> Hi again - I am the OP (I assume that means Original Poster?) - still figuring the acrynims of this site.
> 
> Firstly, thanks for all the advice and opinions coming in from everybody -I know some of you have been through similar or worse circumstances and your comments are based on your personal experiences. I appreciate that. I also appreciate the balanced views from Alexm and the debate that it's generated.
> 
> ...


Ouch, that's bad news, and I'm very sorry to hear that.

Obviously you need to put your full energy into her, given her diagnosis, and forego everything else at the moment.

However, if you can't get it out of your head, even during this time, then have a look and see if she's still in contact with the OM throughout her ordeal. It's possible you'll glean more concrete info in regards to what it is the two of them are doing.

If it's nothing, then I would imagine her contact with him would be minimal, if at all. Even if he contacts her (email, etc.) you can get a good picture from how she responds to him.

if there IS something going on, then it'd likely be reflected in their communication with each other. Stay by her side through the whole ordeal, and when she's healthy again, that's when you can confront and/or leave.

On the flip side, if there is something between the two of them, this diagnosis may give her the impetus to call it off entirely, and when she gets through this, with you by her side, he will have become a distant memory. Later on down the road, when everything is back to normal, you can question her about this, and perhaps she'll be more honest with you, as you will have been by her side through the worst of what life has to offer.

Things like this almost always change a person's perspective on life for the positive, which is a good thing in regards to your marriage.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

alexm said:


> Ouch, that's bad news, and I'm very sorry to hear that.
> 
> Obviously you need to put your full energy into her, given her diagnosis, and forego everything else at the moment.
> 
> ...


It may also make her think that she has a limited time on this earth, and that she should leave her H and family and go "grab the gusto" while she still has a chance.


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## wally123 (Jan 9, 2014)

Thanks to everyone for your comments and advice.

To Alexm - very sound advice considering my situation. I can access most of her emails, I pay the bills so can see all cell phone calls and visa/debit transactions. I think I can still get a pretty good sense of any contact activity between them.Hopefully that can calm my fears while we get through this. She recently told me that the OM's wife had cancer a few years ago and recovered very well. That is the first time she mentioned his name in conversation in quite a long time. I'm thinking now that would have been a good time to discuss this whole thing further but I'll wait for another opportunity when the time feels right.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Advice is simply this.

Stealth monitoring should be ongoing. Sorry but we both know its true. Hold off on confronting obvously but DO NOT let on on your sources. Keep your radar up.

Side advice. Shop around for plastic surgeons on the reconstruction and DO NOT just go with whoever her cancer doc suggests. Google images breast reconstruction. Some of these guys are absolute artists who can give her an aesthetically pleasing pair so good she will want to hit a topless beach after the scars fade. No she wont feel 100%, probably ever but if she can look at herself topless in the mirror and see a nice pair in her reflection, she will very likely do better.

Other surgeons are butchers whos results look like two odd shaped water balloons under stretchwrap in the wrong place. If possible look at the skin saving technique. ( think roto rootering. Sorry for the crude). It seems to give the best looking results. Flap is ok but tends to produce a bit of an odd shape plus pretty big scars on the abdomen.

Side advice2. Hair grows slow. If she wants no do the head shave thing, Do not have her shave her head completely bald during chemo. Leave about 1.5 inches. Yes it will thin out but on an average woman that is a 4 month head start on nice long hair once done. Many women celebrate finally being able to get that first pony tail. 4 months is 4 months.

Source: mistakes of friends and friends of friends.


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## wally123 (Jan 9, 2014)

Thanks Weightlifter,
We've got a appointment with the surgeon tomorrow so we'll see where that goes.
Obviously I'm laying low, being there for her. My mind has settled down so I can focus on things more clearly. I haven't really noticed anything unusual, she's recieved lots of calls and emails from friends regarding her condition. What else can you do?


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

alexm said:


> If she thought her career could be jeopardized because of it, yes.
> 
> We men don't know what it's like to be a woman in the workplace, and the things that some of them feel they need to put up with to get ahead.
> 
> ...


A true breath of fresh air and common sense.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Wally I truly hope she gets through this then tackle the 800 pound gorilla.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

wally123 said:


> Thanks Weightlifter,
> We've got a appointment with the surgeon tomorrow so we'll see where that goes.
> Obviously I'm laying low, being there for her. My mind has settled down so I can focus on things more clearly. I haven't really noticed anything unusual, she's recieved lots of calls and emails from friends regarding her condition. What else can you do?


Sorry for your situation wally

I am not sure this means that the 007 stuff has to cede untill this is all over. You may end up as the loved caretaker, but not being the lover. How would that make you feel afterwards, having heavily invested in her and finding out she did invest in someone else.

I would like to know the truth first and work from there. Now is the time for her to come clean. She has lost the right to your support by her affair. It is your choice to give her support after you know what happened.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> Sorry for your situation wally
> 
> I am not sure this means that the 007 stuff has to cede untill this is all over. You may end up as the loved caretaker, but not being the lover. How would that make you feel afterwards, having heavily invested in her and finding out she did invest in someone else.
> 
> I would like to know the truth first and work from there. Now is the time for her to come clean. She has lost the right to your support by her affair. It is your choice to give her support after you know what happened.


Great post.
Or the resentments will grow.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> Sorry for your situation wally
> 
> I am not sure this means that the 007 stuff has to cede untill this is all over. You may end up as the loved caretaker, but not being the lover. How would that make you feel afterwards, having heavily invested in her and finding out she did invest in someone else.
> 
> I would like to know the truth first and work from there. Now is the time for her to come clean. She has lost the right to your support by her affair. It is your choice to give her support after you know what happened.


Post of the week so far. We've had a few of these. Husband goes superhero to care for sick wife only to find out he is the caretaker while the lover part goes to some bad boy/ player. Follow the support and 007 track. Quietly of course.


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