# 9 years no longer in love with me



## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

I have been with my wife for nine years 8 of it married. we got married young both of us had just turned 21 and she got pregnant ten days after we became married. I have done many things wrong being a stay at home dad I didn't do my fair share of chores for a good bit of the marriage, or I would give up on doing them because she wouldn't pick up after herself. Three years ago she started to disconnect. I knew she was unhappy and I knew it was me but I couldn't get any feedback on what to change. She told me a few items and I made an honest effort to work and change on them.

We had happy times still in those three years I have pictures showing an honest smile and look of love in her eyes. But slowly but surley we started having more and more "fights"(her word not mine I was just trying to talk with her) they stayed civil enough though as tends to happens both sides have said hurtful things and in that end I have been the greater problem without question.

Five months ago I discovered she had at the very least an emotional affair, she says nothing physical happened but she won't even own up to the fact that yes she was letting another man romance her. We decided to work things out and things started to get better. We currently reside overseas and only one cell has long distance so we occasionaly swap phones a few months ago I noticed when texting her to ask her a question said guys name was in the recently texted list. Shortly thereafter on a day she didn't text me at all there was a sudden deleted text (her text inbox use to always be full so it was easy to notice and not something I was looking for but I saw and noticed none the less.) She told me she didn't know how it happened yadda yadda yadda. She has since been very protective over the long distance phone wanting me to express when I want it before giving it to me.

about 2 weeks back I noticed a new name on the recently texted list. Some cat named Bruce Wayne....... yeah thats right my wife is now texting batman. I look through the phone book and sure enough the other guy is suddenly gone and now we have Bruce Wayne whos number strikes a bell. She of course denies everything. 2 sundays ago after a day out with her female friend she tells me she wants a divorce that she no longer loves me. That for three years she has been unhappy and scared to tell me. I asked her to consider a trial seperation or marriage counseling and she will have none of it.

So now I am soon to be divorced.I have two kids with her which as it stands I am suppose to be getting full custody of until we can discuss it at a later time. My in-laws plan to help me get settled and possibly watch over my wee ones while I go through the law enforcement academy in flordia. Wife and me are still friendly and cordigal to each other and there is still a spark when she forgots she is suppose to be not in love with me.

So here are my questions.
1. yesterday she told me she didn't want to go for trial seperation, I want to fight for the phone records for not closure but my on mental well being. I can handle if she had an affair on some levels but I know if I don't find out I will become resentful and inadvertenly poison my children's minds. Should I pursue this course and should I trust her to get the records on her own or should I go with her/ do it through legal action?

2. If she did have an affair how do I handle my in-laws because part of me not to be mean wants to let everyone know. If it is something that caused her to leave me should I tell the people that might show their disaproval at such actions and get her to reconsider her marriage to me and fixing it. I really don't want to lose my in-laws as family and am worried said course might do just that but at the same time well yeah.

Like I said I realise their are other things that need fixing but if there wasn't an affair I truley think us getting some time apart can fix everything if she would just soften herheart. No contact doesn't work for me because I will be damned if she abandons her two children along with me.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

1) leagal action (she never get them *never*)
2) expose with hard black and white proof (she will rewrite history and make you look like the bad guy if you don't)


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

I am guessing you come to the same conclusion as I did. Mind you I did things to drive it there but...


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## marksaysay (Oct 15, 2010)

Niceguy13 said:


> I am guessing you come to the same conclusion as I did. Mind you I did things to drive it there but...


You should own that fact that you made mistakes. You should NOT own the fact that your wife made the choice to go outside of the marriage. You did not force her to make that decision. 

Nonetheless, you are in an uphill fight that many here are this website have been through or are currently going thru. Sorry to her about another member being added to the club.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Oh I don't own the affair just the reasons she felt like it was ok to have one. Its on her for having done it. And I have confronted her on it multiple times. I made the decicion that if she wanted atrial sep I could live with it if she wanted divorce I needed to know. I didn't tell her while she was thinking of the trial sep because I was not trying to force her to save the marriage. even if I found out she did I would still takeher back as long as she agreed to work on us truley work on us not lip service. I have just lost all faith and trust in this particular issue because right now it feels like the past five months were all a lie. I mean honestly with what I have described and that was vagueley does anyone else draw up a he was just a friend concluscion?

*edit Thanks for the welcome but I really don't want to be part of this club I know I can't change the fact that I am but I hate being art of it.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

any other adivce from anyone could really use some more
help/support.


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## marksaysay (Oct 15, 2010)

Do you want the divorce? Have you resigned to just give up on the marriage and move on or are you willing to fight for your marriage to the end? Understanding your answers to these questions would go a long way in helping you figure out what you should do next.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

I want to fight for my marriage, affair or not she is the woman I love, she is also the mother of my children, makes me a better man (when she isn't acting all stepford wife on me) and a million other things, at the bottom of the list is I came from a broken family and don't want that for my children.

She is just unwilling to consider anything but a straight divorce, has already timed when she will start dating again etc. I know I can't force her to stay and am aware I need to basicaly do the 180 as much as possible and allow her to miss me. Granted being a military family and overseas makes it a little harder. I just wish she wouldhold on the paperwork until she gets back to the states.I do want to go back now as it will make pulling the 180a lot better. I can't get everything in order from over here.

On a side note like most young couples we have a large amount of debt, caused primarily through her spending and me not putting my foot down (though she says I am to controllling of the money I really haven't been controlling enough ) and even if she still wants to divorce me I would like for the two of us to clear all our debts and walk away finacialy clean.


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## marksaysay (Oct 15, 2010)

First of all, you should probably get the notion of walking away from a divorce financially clean out of your hand. It is possible but not very likely. 

Next, whether or not you do the 180 or plan A from Marriagebuilder.com, stick to it. Try to make yourself look as attractive as possible without looking weak. Weakness to a woman is unattractive. I might also suggest looking through some of the threads in the Men's Clubhouse about boundaries. I think you would learn a lot about that.

Most importantly, the reason she want to hurry up and get the divorce is because something else is going on. I believe that you already have suspicions, but you need proof. You are going to have to gather some hard proof in order to expose her affair to family, close friends, OM's family and so forth. Affairs are driven by the secrecy. You need to do what you can to ensure that this is no longer a secret and that means you need proof.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Yeah that last part is the part that keeps kicking me in the gut. Like I said know she hasn't been happy for some time and have been trying but it all feels like a big case of WAW. I don't think she wants anything serious with OM could be wrong there but defnitley think there is more to OM then what she will admit. Its the confronting her parents part now. As it is when I leave here I had been planning to stay with them till I am on my feet as I have been a stay at home dad for seven years now, and am currently in a foriegn country I have no means and am really starting from scratch. On the affair I think its just her way of enabling her heart to be hardened. hard proof should be coming up soon though I probaly won't put it up here will let you all know. Well as hard of proof as I can get without stalking and getting a picture of her pants around her ankles . I also know you are suppose to expose it to the workplace but her being military I don't want her to get into legal trouble.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

You cannot engage your wife to try and save the marriage while she is having an affair.

And in case you have any questions whatsoever ... she is having an affair. Your story is textbook. When your wife says she wants a divorce out of the blue, and doesn't want to talk about separation or counseling, there IS somebody else, and it is more than you think, or that they will ever admit to. 

That may sound bitter, but it also happens to be correct.

So what led to the breakdown? You mentioned being a SAHD. Despite the marketing to make that look like an acceptable choice for men ... I know of absolutely no stories of respectful, loving, homes where mommy makes the money and daddy stays home and does the housekeeping and child-rearing. Even worse, if daddy is doing a lousy job at housekeeping and child-rearing.

You have dropped a few hints about struggling with setting boundaries with your wife that it would appear that there is little attraction to, or respect for you on her part. Is that your feeling, or were you completely blindsided by this whole thing?


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Ok, nice guy. Heres the deal. The sooner you get this into your head, the better off you will be mentally, and in your chances of reconciliation. Conrad made mention of another Mr. niceGuy, because , well, we are...wether you want to believe it or not. You ARE part of the club, so get used to it.

Why your a nice guy...
You probably catered to your wife. Gave her everything she needed. In doing so, you probably scarified a lot of personal boundaries in doing so...not arguing with her for sake of not upsetting her. Letting her get away with overspending, because, well, you wanted to spoil her. Letting her talk to you in demeaning ways, and doing nothing about it. Giving up your wants and need for hers. Getting frustrated with her because it seemed all one sided, with you doing most of the giving. Then, letting that frustration turn into passive aggressive silence, where you were angry but didn't do anything about it because you didn't want to really rock the boat. You may have bought her things....thinking...the nicer I am, the more she will appreciate me. Maybe you even did things for her, thinking that if you were just a bit nicer, she will give you something in return...like sex. Or admiration. Most likely sex. You maybe felt like if she was happy...then you ate happy. If she was cranky, this made you angry.

Then, the sex got more infrequent. Then stopped. This made you angry, too. But you dealt with it via silent treatments, or other passive aggressive behavior. Then, in your infinite wisdom, you had the idea that maybe if I just did MORE nice for her, I would get nice back. But that never happened, so you withdrew even more. Pretty soon, you just gave up on even trying anymore. But you just remained silent, and angry......

Any of this sound familiar? If so, then your a nice guy. What happened? Well, your wife lost all respect for you. She treated you like a doormat. And the more she mistreated you, the more you took. Thinking...if I do more nice...I will get more nice. Know what? Doormats aren't sexy. So...she fell out of love with you...and justified not being in love with you with having an affair.

No. They ate not friends. They are lovers. Even if it was just an EA, it's still an affair.

Now, your wife is in a fog. The fog is that your wife has all these PEA chemicals juicing up her brain. You know, those chemicals that make you all giddy when you first meet someone. They are, in fact, as addictive as heroin. So, now you have to think of your wife as a junkie. You, interfering with her affair, is the one, in her mind, that will end the heroin supply. She loves the heroin supply, so she wants to keep on with the affair to get it. This is why she wants an outright divorce. You are not the heroin. Her lover is. Plus, she knows, deep down, that what she is doing is wrong. But she won't admit it to herself. Because the heroin is awesome! She won't admit it to you either. So she is torn between guilt. And addiction. How does she compensate for this moral dichotomy? She rewrites your entire history together in her mind. You have always been evil! She never really loved you anyways! You suck! You always did! She was never happy! It's all your fault! Now...it's all about her, she deserves the affair! She wasted Yeats with you, now it's time for her. 

Get used to the lying, blame shifting, and doublespeak. This is the arsenal of the addict in the fog. She will be selfish, and seem uncaring. She will ignore you, and her children in some cases. The heroin is too fun too worry about petty responsibilities and morals! Those just get in the way!

So..what do you do? Well, for your marriage, your wife is in her utopian fantasy land. Life with the OM holds promises of eternal bliss and happiness. Ypu need to get her to come back down to reality. You know...her kids...her marriage. You can't do this while she's in the affair fog. So you need to first expose the affair. To family. To friends. To parents. To inlaws. To the OMs wife, if there is one. Then, contact the OM and tell him you have plans to fight for your marriage. And you won't just lie down like a little puppy.

Then, do the 180. Then Plan A, and plan B.

Your in for a rough ride, friend. Be strong. Stay health. Focus on you, and your kids. Take good care of yourself. Also, work on yourself during this time. Get mentally stronger. If you are a true nice guy...do some reading. Grow some balls. Set up boundaries. Become an alpha male. Learn to assert yourself and protect your boundaries. Don't be a doormat. Become the man that any women would be pround to be with, including your SO. Show her what she will be missing if she continues down this path. But most importantly, do it for yourself.

Take care, friend. Hope this turns out well for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

some of it sounds accurate,I was dominating the relationship for sure but I was never the quiet type.I have always been semi assertive I just always fell for believing her just because I love her and then later saying sorry. *note to others saying sorry after every "fight" is not the answer. And yeah I have long known something else was going on its the geting the proof which I know I am gonna find via phone statements and what to do with said proof.

* edit I am also a fixer. I have a very logical mind take the data offered come to a conclusion and then try to fix said problem...something I defnitley was doing wrong. I did spoil and smother her though in acts of kindness. Cold shoulder routine is going to be hard with her in the same house and the kids in the same house but with her staying in Japan I want the kids to be around their mother as long as possible before they don't see her for a year or more.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Niceguy13 said:


> about 2 weeks back I noticed a new name on the recently texted list. Some cat named Bruce Wayne....... yeah thats right my wife is now texting batman.


I know it's not meant to be funny but this made me LOL.



Niceguy13 said:


> She is just unwilling to consider anything but a straight divorce, has already timed when she will start dating again etc. I know I can't force her to stay


That is correct. You cannot force anyone to stay with you. And why would you want to? Love should be free.

So check it out: she is having an affair. Right now. No, you don't ASK her to give you her phone records. A cheater will very rarely if ever give up the evidence. So you get that on your own. Can you get copies from the phone company?

Right now, don't beg or plead w/ her to stay with you. She is running away. Don't chase after her. All you can do is let her know you will NOT live in an open marriage and state a hard boundary that you MUST adhere to.

Get tested for STDs. Once you have evidence, expose the affair. If OM is married or has a girlfriend, tell her ASAP.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

OM is just a single guy. Not even a man because I have already taken the step of confronting him, looked scared not the oh my god we are going to get got caught scared, but omg this guy is going to kil me scared.

We are living in Japan so getting the phone records is a pain in the ass. She is no longer fighting me about it though and we are going out in town to talk to a better phone company branch to get said records. Not her alone not her with a friend but me with her tagging along. I finaly took step one of affair cares advice. Before I always tried to talk to her about it this time I set the boundry and let her know there are consequences if she doesn't follow them. I also up and told her I am tired of being disrespected she may be divorcing me but for the time being she is still married to me, and regardless I am the father of her children I will be respected and not walked all over.

She kept saying how I looked like I was in a bad mood all night when the truth was I felt great. I just had this resolved not going to cater to you look on my face all night and went about doing my things.

Thanks to all you wonderful people (and including her for telling me to listen to her dad) I am done chasing. I am done being the emotional luggage carrier. I am done saying sorry because she crossed one of my boundries.

She left her boots this morning at home and waas wearing one of her girlfriends at work called me at 630 am asking me to bring them. Having slept like **** for the past two weekstold her I am sleeping in will bring them when I wake up then promptly hung up the phone.

And yes she did fall in love with some of my nice guy aspects, but I use to also be more of an ******* as well. Funny you think you are becoming a better man and doing what they want you to do improving on the areas they complain the most about and what you are really doing is pushing them farther away.

And not to be vindictive but I am kind of looking torwards our first "fight" where she busts into the whole tears routine and I don't come find her and tell her I am sorry.

Thank you everyone thus far your support has meant a lot will keep things updated as they progress.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Also yes Jelly it crackedme up as well here is this guy that has supposivley been working near the clinic for months that shares a name with Batman and this is the first I hear of it.......:rofl::rofl::rofl::wtf: How she thought I wouldnt notice is beyond me.

Also last night I she snuggled up to me in bed. Yes we are still sharing the same bed. Part of the whole living overseas and she is not moving out of the house part. Not her choice mine. Myboundry I set up. She is still my wife and she still has two children living under this roof who are not going to see their mother for a long time whether we end up saving our marriage or not. I also as people have suggested in this thread need to once again start respecting myself(being a SAHD has killed allmy self respect I have not been happy as one. I love my kids cherish the extra time I got to spend with them but I literaly felt my testosterone draining away...hell how many guys do you know can say they have seen every episode of Charmed out of boredom mind youbut still.) And I refuse to leave MY bed. She wants to sleep it in fine. She ends up cuddling with me while I sleep fine I am a pretty dead sleeper though recently has been like ****.

But one day at a time right. Should I giver her a timeline on the whole open arms back.I was thinking of letting her know not discussing but sharing thatwhen she finishes her tour and gets back stateside thats when the clock stopsspeaks metaphoricaly speaking. I don't think I will ever really move on and not going to subject someone else to the emotional baggage I am now carrying but I also can't put my life on hold for her forever always waiting for the day"she comes home"


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Well she just called started to get nasty on the phone she was talking about going to legal before I get phone records. I told her I would go but I was not signing anything till after I get those phone records she started disrespecting me saying I was bullying her trying to guilt trip me etc. I called ehr on it she got more disrespectful so I said alrgith bye and hung up.

*edit Sent her a text if she wants to call back and talk with me respectfuly she is more then welcome to.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

No no no,. you don't TELL her you're getting any phone records or evidence. She will only hide the affair better. Right now you are stealth, ok? Like the Batmobile. :lol: 

And oh my, I thought you were being facetious but his name really is Bruce Wayne. That is hilaaaarious!


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

no that is what she put in her phonebook OM name is something different and use to be lsited as such, and to late she already knows I am getting them now she is trying to cram paperwork down before I get them. She knows she has been caught and is in full panic mode.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

And I don't care if she hides it more like everyone here has been saying either first I can't control her secondly I have to think of myself my emotional stability and my childrens well being and either A) she is divorcing me already so what does it matter B) she starts to truley realize the consequence of her actions. Funny how me doing something for me and not caving about signing papers before I have those phone records is suddenlyme stalling and bullying her though, she just can't wrap her head around the idea that it has nothing to do with her it has to do with me. I am done pushing I am done chasing I done being the only one trying.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Did she file divorce already?

Don't let he know you're gathering intel on the affair.



Niceguy13 said:


> I am done pushing I am done chasing I done being the only one trying.


I can understand this sentiment. I got to this place too right before I moved out.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

She already knows I am she however does not know I am currently sending her dad a message explaining everything including a few years back where she got sexualy curious/ i pushed her into being sexualy curious and me having an emotional affair. I didn't realize what it was at the time but you know what they say about hindsight being 20/20 and all and I think it was that event that set us on this course.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

So message to FIL sent.I did my best to make sure it was not accusing or anything. Just told him the details of what has been going on and some key events in the past such as me unknowingly having an EA with the person she was exploring her sexuality with up to her present EA and quite probaly PA. No message back from him yet. I told him it was not an attempt to drag him in the middle I just needed him to know and understand in case things get nasty over me needing the phone records that I have no intention, want or need for things to get nasty but this is why I need them (emotional stability and health for myself as well as my kids) and why I won't sign anything till I have that closure. I really want to see what lies she has prepared for the new me. I am also curious if her father will accept and understand what I am saying and furthermore confront her and make her feel even more shame for what she has done. No I don't want to be vindictive I just want her to reap what she sowed no more eating of cake on my emotional tab.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Haha yet another update (this has been very therepeutic for me.)
She is gone for the weekend "camping at a bike show" enabler even showed up to pick her up. When she told me I took it in stride. Told her the way she approached me about it was disrespectful. I almost intialy blew up she told me in the car with the kids around luckily I was about to get out to go the store which gave me my twix moment. Came back in the car told her have agood weekend.

Upon getting to the housetold her how she disrespected me and I didn't appreciate it nor will I stand for it. Her original line was "Enabler asked me to go to the bike festival this weekend and I said yes. Is this ok"last remark said timidly and meek.I instantly reconized it as one of her classic no win situations. She has already agreed to go out. She made these plans before ever talking to me. If I say no I wasplanning on doing this I am controlling her, if I act all happy and say yes then I am a doormat nice guy. So I took the middle road told her I can't control you your going to do what you do but how you handled this was disrespectful to me.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> No no no,. you don't TELL her you're getting any phone records or evidence. She will only hide the affair better. Right now you are stealth, ok? Like the Batmobile. :lol:
> 
> And oh my, I thought you were being facetious but his name really is Bruce Wayne. That is hilaaaarious!


BTW new batmobile is a freaking black tank there is nothing stealth about a big giant car crushing black tank with a freaking jet engine in it


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

LOL. Too true.

I wouldn't send any more messages to her family. From now on, just be the best dad you can be and protect yourself. Don't chase after her.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Haha wished someone would of said something before I sent it *shrug* owell to latenow. Oh I am defnitley done chasing I quit chasing yesterday. the message to her father was part panic mode part screw it I am just coming clean. Yes there was negative stuff in there about her but it was not attacking in nature just a look this is what is happening I value guys not asking you to get in the middle but this is why I need to do what I need to do.I realize I am giving them Justification of my actions in a wa, but for me it was more asserting look here's the truth here's how I see it you now know it either accept me or don't mentality.


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## LonelyNLost (Dec 11, 2010)

Oh, Niceguy, our stories are so similar! Freaking affairs are powerful, aren't they?! My H was talking trial separation when he wanted to leave, but as soon as I snooped too close to finding out the truth, he's throwing paperwork at me for custody of the kids. Sigh. I'm a damn good woman, and he's being a jerk. Disrespecting me left and right, and can't even tell me to my face he wants a divorce. I don't get it. Not sure how I can expose the affair as I have no proof. His phone is in his name, and I can't get into the account. He changed his email and facebook passwords. The girl lives 2500 miles away, but I think he's been with her twice since Christmas. I want to bust but don't know how!


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Defnitley powerful and yeah talked to ehr father this morning about my facebook message. It had the desired effect. I understand and appreciate that youfelt the need to tell me but I am not getting in the middle of this. It is clear you want to stay civil with my daughter through this all. Which is all I wanted from him. especialy as I am going to need their help when getting stateside.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Well other updates. Had planned to go to the cherryblossom festival today as a family unit. Apparently W had different ideas and decided to go camping with the girls all weekend.....Yes I know doesn't bother me anymore though. As already said talked to FILthis morning was a good chat and no longer have any worries on that front.

Was a nice day decided to take the kids to the cherry blossom festival anyways. After all its not their fault and they were expecting to go. Was a good time. Had some ice ream (well they did) 4 year old made herself an absolute mess. Rode a little old school japanese style gondola on the river kids liked it.

All in all I think I needed today. It showedme what the futureholds with out the W. Quite honestly it wasn't that bad.She hasn't been in it for years and I have been a single father who happened to be married. Today gavve me the confidence to know that I can do it all. That I don't need her. Was some hard moments I admit mainly only when the kidswould bring her up and I had to do my best to put on the smile and quite honestly lie through my teeth.

I still love my W. I still wantreconcilliation but at the same time WTF am I doing with a woman who is about to not see her kids for over a year and is not taking every available moment to spend with them. I mean seriously I know the fog is bad, but this is just unexcusable. My children do not deserve to be punished for the choices she is making in her life. 

I think she might go cut all strings route. This just made me feel like she could give a F less about her children. Glad she isn't going to fight me for custody. They deserve better.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

OK another question of advice. I am pretty much over it and ready to throw in the proverbial towel. Should I plan to give her the I want you to be around the kids but either you respect me or get the f out speech. I want the D to be civil for the sake of my kids. I am aware that this weekend "out with the girls" is probaly nothing more then her spending time with OM. Hell even how she came to me about it was disrespectful. She has no intention of reconcilliation, and is only mildly hiding OM.

I keep thinking of my kids though and going this might be the last time they ever see their mother. Yes she is that deep in the fog, only way I can explaining you not going to see your kids for a year or more and you aren't spending every free moment, but I am more and more just wanting this over with. I want to be with her but I don't need to be with her.I want her in MY kids lifes but I don't need her in them.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

any adivce on the last question she will be "back" in a few hours and I want to handle this properly.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

My take is you might be making this thing to easy for her. If you want to fight this affair make it as uncomfortable as possible. But since you've thrown in the dowel. Got out as fast as possible, and move on.

You seem to be protecting her, I say go with the scorged earth effect, but thats just me. 

Why allow your kids to have your cheating wife be an examble for wife of the year. Face it she isn't the best role model for them.

And god know what kind of influence the OM will have on them. Don't take this sh*t laying down for the sake of the kids. Your wife did wrong and the kids should see how bad it really is when spouse's aren't faithful.

Show them a good example in not tolorating this bad behavior.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Any guidelines you can offer for the conversation? I know she knows I know but accusing has gotton no where in fact it is getting me divorced  And trust me I know she isn'tthe best rolemodelfor them but I grew up in that broken household where mommy daddy politics were always played. I detest both my parents for it.

Its just getting hard to manage my needs and my kids needs. And by throwing in the proverbial towel I meant the divorce not the OM. That towel is not thrown. In fact trying to mount a Balboa moment where I come back and just knock her outta her shoes. At least as far asthe fog goes. I want her to realise she sacrificed everything for nothing.Hell the guy is a little b**** boy and if I wasn't a father just a married man I would be sitting in jail right now happily might I add because my personal moral compass finds no problem with vengence. I don't use it often but got no problem with it. 

But I get what you are saying maybe its time for some "vengence" against the wife. Not to be nasty or mean but just giver her what she deserves which is not a damn thing from me.

*edit Just wanted to add even though I am pretty sure about this weekend out. It did me alot of good. I ate two good meals over the two days (I usualy only eat one good meal a day the rest being grazing) And slept soundly if getting to bed late both nights. It was great all in all.Alot of the stress and anxiety is returning today though. Yeah I know it will be easier in time and I get the NC thing just current situation the NC doesn't really work and even once NC does work it will still have to be LC because of the kids. And I mean me having NC/LC with her not OM. As has been suggested her respect for me is to far gone right now and she is to deep in the fog for NC to be a reality with OM. And yes want my D is final their is a chance for reconcilliation but she is going to have to show a lot, she succceded in her WAW plan more then she realizes because this LSwill go back on to the market and from hearing Ladies talk. Single Fathers who don't bad mouth there ex, got their act together, and know how to treat a woman with affection are sexy.

Also took my ring off today. Finger feels so naked now but before like when it would fall off and I would miss it now it feels liberated and weightless. She knows how much my ring means to me so it will be interesting to see if she reacts not going to ring it up though.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

the guy said:


> Why allow your kids to have your cheating wife be an examble for wife of the year. Face it she isn't the best role model for them.
> 
> And god know what kind of influence the OM will have on them. Don't take this sh*t laying down for the sake of the kids. Your wife did wrong and the kids should see how bad it really is when spouse's aren't faithful.
> 
> Show them a good example in not tolorating this bad behavior.


This is terrible advice when it comes to the kids. No matter how bad a wife she may be, she is still their mother and will ALWAYS be their mother. If she abandons them, they will suffer badly. If he denigrates her, they will suffer badly. For the kids' sake, you need to keep your eyes on the prize: either a fight for the marriage that does NOT use the children as a weapon in any way, shape, or form, or an amicable divorce where you insist she remain a part of their lives to the extend her military service makes it possible. 

Remind her that it will make the children's lives extremely difficult if she abandons them--read literature on abandonment issues; you cannot "fix" them although, with a lot of counseling, kids can get through it. Also let her know that while you do not give a damn about her relationship with OM (if you decide that is true), the kids deserve her undivided attention when they are with her--and they do not need the stress of trying to adjust to a new man in their lives while they are trying to learn to adjust to a divorced mom and dad. One step at a time; divorce, and give the kids time to adjust to each of you as single parents. The OM can just not be around when the kids are, for the first year or two. 

I'm glad you were both able to see and accept the ways you contributed to the marital breakdown, and able to accept being a single dad if that's the way it turns out. Lots of women who are SAHMs feel the "testosterone" draining out of them too, only it is their identity as adult individuals. Watching Charmed, huh? Mine was "Winnie the Pooh" tapes. I knew I was in trouble when Piglet started looking sexy to me. . . ;0 But, you will be one of the few men who may truly understand how difficult being a SAH parent can be--emotionally, intellectually, physically. God, we love 'em, but man, it can be so demanding and boring at the same time! Good for you, though, given that their mom seems not to have a lot of inclination as a nurturer (and contrary to popular belief, not all women do). 

Your willingness to walk away may be the only thing that saves the marriage. Do not let her cuddle you and do not be warm in any way--treat her more like an acquaintance to whom you are polite but reserved. But enforce boundaries, and refuse to discuss anything until she agrees to marriage counseling. Refuse to sign any papers until you've gotten legal advice, too. You do not have to make it easy for her by agreeing to signing a joint petition, for example. In that way, the normal legal process will take its time, and if you are in calm retreat (ie, walking away without looking back), she *may* come chasing after you. Make sure the only place she can "find" you is in a marriage counselor's office--it should be the only place you discuss "us." You can also insist that she come clean on the affair, if you truly believe that you want and need to know. Good luck.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Think Iposted it somehwere else sister but I shall resay it here. The kids are MINE. She isn't even fighting them for me all I have to do is live in flordia (the state her parents reside in) and thats it. As before I even met her I joined the military to get out of my home state and I hate CA where the rest of my biological family is well this is really a non issue for me. I got no problem moving to FLA there are people that support me there a good bit of them being her own family.

I never had the breakdown of losing my life. Since I was young I always wanted MY family. I was open and honest with her about this before I ever asked her to marry me .For me my biggest goal and dream in my life was to have MY family. There are times where I wish she would of been more part of the family, but she is the one that grew resentful of the family life. I realise there are some things I did to contribute to this and I also realise half of what she is telling me are her reasons are flat out lies. A lot of her reasons for leaving boil down to back to high school,you know its me not you, (which either A means its you and I can be fixed or B there is someone else already there) All the evidence points in this case she already has someone else there and doesn't realize what life is going to be like without her family.

Going to make it hard on her till D is final. Once D is final all chance of an "easy" reconcilliliation are gone. 

Once I gained the acceptance of the fact that I want her but don't need her things got a lot easier for me. I am suprised it was so easy for me to reach that point but I think the past 6 months of lies is what did it for me. I know I have my faults but I also know I am a good man. I know I will pick myself up get to the states and make a life for the remains of my family. I also know that romanticaly life is not over for me. I may not be the most attractivemale physicaly but I am pretty sure that being a single father who treats and loves his kids right and puts them first while having his own life together is a pretty attractive quality so I know when I am ready it might take time but someone who does want and can accept the type of love I offer will across me. Maybe in a couple years may be in 20, but I know good men tend not to stick on the market long and I am a good man. And next relationship I have (whether it be a reconcilliation with her or someone new) I will be more firm on my boundries and stick to them no more of these silly games, tests and other nonsense.

Thank you though sister youkinda turned my day around. Went kind of crappythinking about her coming back and trieing to start drama but now I just don't care again.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Well I took the middle road thank you everyone for the advice given helped me decide how I wanted to broach it all. When she got back from her trip Made her sit down and listen to me. First I told her I nolonger care aboutt he phone records which is true. She has already proven I can't trust her on that and either its true or not but it does not negate her lies even if I am wrong. That set her off guard for the rest of the talk.

Then went to tell her that I will no longer be disrespected. If she wanted to stay in this house and spend these last few months in the house with her kids then she will accept the fact that until that divorce is finalized she will respect me. If I catch her talking to OM she is out of the house, if she continues to try to play these little mind games with me she is out of the house. 

I told her I won't fight the divorce but if she wants to stay in the house she needs to keep her heart open. She needs to quit bad mouthing me and bringing up how I did everything wrong.

I told her that the kids feel abandoned by their mother. That it has nothing to do with her divorcing me but her divorcing the family. The same time she disconnected from me she disconnected from her children and that the children do not deserve this and I will not tolerate it.

Lastly I told her once the D is finalized thats it. She might still have a chance but I will not be her plan B. I am a good man, a pretty good husband and a damn good father. That if she can't learn to value and appreciate me there are plenty of women in the world that can value and appreciate a man like me. And most women would count themselfs lucky to have a man that always stood by and supported their woman. Will of course keep everything updated but that was my Sunday. And you know what it felt good damn good. Especialy seeing those tears forming in her eyes think I actualy broke through the fog some. Not that I count on it lasting.

I feel good about myself though and will see what today brings. Going to the doctor to get myself some ambien or something so I can sleep better starting to run ragged. Would like to get a temp script for some anti depressants or mood balancers as well but don't want the mental health check up on the file as I progress into law enforcement academy.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Alright everyone news update for the day. Please ensure that you are firmly buckled into your chair for fear of roflmaoing into your computer desk. Just went by base legal. They can't do divorce proceedings here. Her lawyer is now here. If my lawyer who is from a differnt base SJO has a family court I cans tart it from there. As I don't nessicarly want one well yeah you know. Anyways so all she can file for is seperation papers. Said seperation papers as many know carry over into divorce proceedings and usualy help the judge on determing. So according to the military I am entitled to no less then 3/5 of her gross income that includes BHA, COLA for living overseas, but does not include her uniform allowance or her BSA. That is just for child support with two kids that is without any alimony. So as even I want to go back to the states and work on me and truley give her the 180 she is going to be losing over half her paycheck right out the gate and giving it to me.

No I do not want to be vindictive and no I do not want revenge, but I know what we make and I know how she likes to spend and I know what bills are in her name only and I know what they cost. The hammer hasn't hit the bell yet but look out folks its gonna be a big ass hammer that hits it. And yes after dropping her off back at work as soon as I pulled away I started laughing uncontrollably and almost drove off the bridge. Irony how I love you. She is divorcing me because she is unhappy wait till she realises how much unhappiness is gonna about from her struggling to get by whilst my paychecks I start earning back in the states will be all spending money. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ok that came off more evil then I meant but I am loving this.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Niceguy13 said:


> Well I took the middle road thank you everyone for the advice given helped me decide how I wanted to broach it all. When she got back from her trip Made her sit down and listen to me. First I told her I nolonger care aboutt he phone records which is true. She has already proven I can't trust her on that and either its true or not but it does not negate her lies even if I am wrong. That set her off guard for the rest of the talk.
> 
> Then went to tell her that I will no longer be disrespected. If she wanted to stay in this house and spend these last few months in the house with her kids then she will accept the fact that until that divorce is finalized she will respect me. If I catch her talking to OM she is out of the house, if she continues to try to play these little mind games with me she is out of the house.
> 
> ...


Good for you for standing up for yourself. Did she say anything to you when you told her all of this?

Stick to your guns now!



Niceguy13 said:


> Alright everyone news update for the day. Please ensure that you are firmly buckled into your chair for fear of *roflmaoing* into your computer desk.


Love the term ROFLMAOing


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Good for you for standing up for yourself. Did she say anything to you when you told her all of this?
> 
> She got teary eyed but nothing that day. Though we did talk After she got off work yesterday.
> Stick to your guns now!
> ...


Which leaves me with the finish up of yesterday. Well after sunday evening and monday afternoon I think the fog has cleared a little from her head. It still prettymurky in there but she actually came to to talk.

Firstly she is tired of me reflecting her. You know monotone even when I get riled I have been barley raising my voice. She said what equated to it feels like you don't love me anymore. Which she gave me a chance to respong to. Told her you wanted to divorce me. I to9ld you I accept your decicion even if it isn't what I want,but in order to accept it I need to emotionaly distance myself from you. I am pretty happy inside but I am tired of riding my emotions for you. She looked pretty upset and contemplative about that.

She finaly addressed a few things I have been doing wrong as well. All minor stuff but it was of the nature that explains her disconnect. Which gave me the oppurtunity considering she started the line to talk about how for three years I have been begging for just this. For her to open up and confront me.

She also opened up about I am not choosing the easy way giving me the chance to say yes but no. The easiest way is to stay married with nothing unchanged on either side, but I don't want that either. The true hard way is to finaly work on ourselfs and staymarried.I have my issues but youare the one who wants a divorce, you are also the one who emotionaly disconnects before someone has a chance to hurt you and avoids conflict at all cost. The key elements that led to our divorce. She gave a slight nod then (body language agreement.)

Somewhere during it all we talked about the kids. She brought up about how I am saying she doesn't love the kids. Which I never said but may have implied. She was upset that when I picked her up from work I said I am taking the kids to go bowling tonight you can come if you like. (I know not the best way to word it but my 6yr old has been wanting to go bowling for about 9 months now. I have been trying to get the family to go but we never went because she never wanted to go and I was tired of my sone not being able to bowl because mommy just didn't feel like it.) And I took the time to explain not just in my eyes but the kids actions show they feel like mom disconnected from them when she disconnected from me. That they and I mean THEY feel like my mommy is divorcing the family not me. This comes both from observing their behaviour around them and from talking with them about their feelings. Yes I reassure them mommy loves them but questions I can't answer or could only answer in a "poisoning" way I let them know I don't have an answer to that. 

On other news. After reading her package from legal. She has to remarry me before she can divorce me :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: You see we got married in Japan. Japan does not do divorces for gaijin unless one spouse is a resident. According to federal law in the U.S. our marriage must be recoknized (e have to inform the state) that we are married. We have never done that. We are legaly married in Japan not the US. So we have to do the paperwork stateside for marriage in order to get divorced. Life is grand ain't it.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Ok, I may have been just a little out of line with getting my point across about the kids but my point was don't make it easy for her by protecting the kids, there not dumb,and the kids will be effected by there moms doing not yours. 

She cheated!


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

the guy said:


> Ok, I may have been just a little out of line with getting my point across about the kids but my point was don't make it easy for her by protecting the kids, there not dumb,and the kids will be effected by there moms doing not yours.
> 
> She cheated!


I think Knew how you eremeaning that guy. I am pretty sure that point is starting to get across. Mind you the fog may be thinning but its still there. I am not letting my guard down anytime soon, but I will "reward" her for steps in the right direction.

She is slowly starting to admit to things. And not admitting for my sake but actually admitting it to herself. I can handle everything besides the fact that she turned me into a controlling beta. 

I know many here know what I am talking about. For three years I was pushing and trying but I was never getting feedback due to her fear of hurting someone she cares about (she does this with everyone in her life including her parents) she is a passive aggresive appeaser. She would much rather go over the waterfall whistling a tune then help someone who is killing themselfs trying to row to shore.

I am going to keep up what I am doing though. Mixing and combining several of the strategies. She is going to have to continue to initiate contact. If she wants to talk about serious issues I will talk with her but I am done bringing them up. I will still do actions to express love(as I know those count for something) such as little chores around the house she has been talking about. I will continue to draw the hard line on respect I think this one has probaly had the biggest impact and scares her the most. And though I want to save my marriage I will continue to not to allow myself to be the only one trying. The ball is in her proverbial court. I will be fine with or without her and right now I am planning my life for myself and my kids without her. And I will continue to wait for the chance to confront her with the truth about how her life is going to suck as a divorcee.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Oh to add in yesterdays conversation I thanked her for opening up to me when it was all over. For being truthful not invalidating my feelings and instead asking for clarification when she was unsure of what I said. I did the same and allowed her to talk and did my best not to invalidate her feelings.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

So I am thinking of telling her I am going to file seperation papers early. Things have gotton a lot better since starting my mixed strategy butif I am going to have to live alone with the kids they should start getting used to it now. I am unsure how Ieel about this and it is one of the issues I am torn on, but if she means there is no hope for reconcilliation what is the point of her still residing in the home? This opens up a whole world of troubles finacialy as we are still residing overseas. Of course she doesn't want to talk about it but *shrug* I don't kow things are complicated right now.

I am finding it easy in a lot of ways, but when it comes to matters of my kids I keep being weak. My son earlier today said he was mad at mommy for not wanting to be with me anymore. I know I can't be a nice guy but I don't want to deny the kids what little time they have left. I want the W to wake up and smell the proverbial coffee and she seems to be a little less groggy right now but she is causing more of a disturbance then anything.

*guess I will see what my legal advice tells me tomorrow and discuss it with him/her. Can't represent me in a civil matter but can advise me.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Just got done talking with legal. Said there is pretty much no way she can divorce me from here. The japanese courts won't handle anything if its contested, they also don't want anything to do with American child custrody jurisdiction or american child support jurisdictition. We sat aside some time on Sat to talk about everythign. Going to drop the bomb on her then. As usual she has done none of her actual footwork instead listening only to its so easy for this so easy for that.

The way it is now if she goes through the way she wants I will basicaly get 60% of her money for the rest of her life. Oh yeah and I am entitled to part of her retirement as well. The picture is getting better and better for the LS who wanted to save the marriage and grimmer and grimmer for the WS who wanted the divorce.

Considering I still love her I hope she wakes up before the D because she has got an awful big hammer poised above her head.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

So last night was a wierd night. We both agreed Sunday would be "talk day." As she is focusing on one thing and I am focusing on another. Then we made plans to get out this weekend. JUst the four of us. These plans are made for saturday so they do not interefere with Sunday. Get home I do dishes play a little bit of video games together. And you know chat "qulaity time chat" youkow superficial stuff and such. Then she starts acting her "lovey dovey" self. She even rolled over in bed last night and cuddled with me.

Not trying to read to much into though. I think finaly she has completely broken it off with OM,but she is now in divorceland fog.
Not sure exactly what I will talk about Sunday.Think it might have to do with what her plans are to being with. If given the chance by her going to confront her with some of her own feelings and ations. Confront may the wrong word to use, as I know I can't come off as her enemy, but I also know I need to not put my balls back in her purse.

I really do think the way I handled her out all weekend really shook her and her convictions up.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Well the weekend was odd. She has done no work as far as getting me out of here and back to the states. She had a horrible day Friday at work but I just listened as she talked raised my hand if I needed clarification on as issue (that way she didn't think I was interrupting in order to "fix it) Woke up early saturday and went out the four of us. Spent a little to much money but owell.

Got back super late. Before going to bed told her I needed to tell her something. Took her head in my hands and gave her a quick kiss and toll her I forgive her. She actually kissed back. She asked me forgive me for what and I just said everything. She was still curious about it the next day but didn't talk to her about it.

Chat on Sunday wasn't much. She didn't have much for me and I am following the 180 plan of not offering up information (as that is something I am horrible about) Talked a little about her plans after D. She has none and it kind of rocked her that she realized she didn't really have none. 

Taking advice also from the The Five Love Languages by Chapman. Been working on my acts of love (it seems to be what matters most to her) And as it has been 4 weeks since the hammer was dropped on me I asked her of a simple favor. To read the book. Asked it in a nonthreating way and made it seem like I didn't care if she did or didn't.

That about sums it up for now will keep everything posted and up to date. Things are slow and painful but going good. Still not trying to get my hopes up. I know that the ball is in her court and I can't force her to shoot it but defnitley showing her I am ready for the rebound if she misses or am willing to take it and dunk on her. (depends on if she decides she wants me on her team or not)


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Well yesterday my emotions thought a roller coaster would be great. Not sure why but Iwas up and down all down. By the time she got off work was just absolutley exhasuted. The evening went well. Grocery store was closed so we all went out to eat.

Noticed a lot of slips in her language last night. Not sure if it was intentional or not. Talk of keeping the joint account when I go back to the states. Lots of we and us from her. I never called her on it. She also gave me my better husband list. It was short and was very positive heavy.

Work still stressing her out a lot. Been doing a better job of just listening. Feels like she is holding back on the big D now. Mind you I slip up I am sure it will be right back in force, but defnitley feels like she has kept her heart open to any changes I have made and am continuing to make. Again not making the changes just or her. I do hope she notices don't get me wrong and hope to stay married to her but the changes are for ME. 

With everything going on I know in ten years I will be able to look my son or daughter in the eye and tell them yes I did my best. I tried (both in the wrong ways via old me and the new ways via better me) my best. Thats all I can tell you kid but know your father never gave up.

So all in all the evening actualy went pretty well and still don't know why I decided to ride the emotional roller coaster yesterday. So far today has been pretty well.

As always will keep my progress/status updated. Thanks again to the people that have read and commented hopeful my process helps some of you.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

The roller coaster right is normal, Nice. 

You will have days where you feel you've got it under control and then the next day may be depressed all day. Just take it as it comes.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> The roller coaster right is normal, Nice.
> 
> You will have days where you feel you've got it under control and then the next day may be depressed all day. Just take it as it comes.


Haha just wish my emotions would of decided to ask me first. Was an exhausting task to stay positive with my emotions telling me be depressed be depressed. And yeah yesterday evening was another trip. Though yesterday I know what caused it all. Wanting to talk but knowing talking would just make everything worse.


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## jeffsmith77 (Mar 19, 2011)

Yep, I know about the roller coaster all to well my friend. I felt great for a few days, then the past couple of days have been ok, and today was one of the hardest days I've had since my ex left me.

I called my ex today (breaking NC) to tell her that our neighbor passed away. I ended up talking a few minutes longer about other stuff. The stronger me from a few days ago would've cut that chatter out, but I was vulnerable today... Sometimes our emotions force our mouths to move.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

The emotions one goes through--are similar to someone having a psychotic breakdown. Seriously. Happy, sad, laughing, violent, crazy, mad, relieved, downtrodden, sleepless, depressed, excited, it's nothing short of insane.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Well Weds and Thursday were wierd days as well. Weds I was in a very angry mood. I didn't just "open" up about it. I told ehr I was in an angry mood and later she came to me and asked me to tell her about it at which point I did. Cracks in her armor appeared through it all. She is slowly starting to be more honest with herself. Which in turn is allowing her to be more honest with me.

She tried once or twice to trap me in "fitness tests" read the mens forums laides if you are curious about that term I think I handled them well. Thursday was the really big fitness test. It is one dating back to early in our marriage that I failed. Will recount the early incident before the new one.

Original story.
Hey my mom wants to take me out and have a woman's day out you know haircuts pedicures and the like.

Sounds great. You aren't going to cut your hair to short though are you.

No honey just a trim I promise.

Ok have fun.

*several hours later Her sister and mil come back Hair is very short. I grow upset over the broken promise and make myself look like an ass insteaad of saying it looks nice honey.*

Now for the new revamped version. Happened Thurs.

*pick her up from work*

I want to get my hair cut I picked out a couple styles tell me what you think.

*at this point kinda going WTF does it matter but I oblige watch her facial reactions as she is telling me about each style. Luckily the one I like the most is also the one she reacted to the most.*

I like this one.

*a smile and a quick touch by her drive to beauty salon*

I will take my phone so I can call you when done.

It shouldn't take that long and the kids need naps. I got no problem waiting.

*a honest smile not cruel or twisted* Ok will take it anyways just in case.

(Honestly wanted to sit there my daughter is 4 going on 21 and is cranky diva B**** when she doesn't get her beauty sleep)

*hour and a half later she comes out and excitedley shows off her hair*

Looks nice baby.(yes I still call her by pet names but I always called her by pet names they have just changed from stuff like kid to honey)

*another honest smile she then volunteers to cook dinner and sits on the love sit with me and watches some tv.*

This week has been wierd to say the less. OM appears to be "gone." even to the point she is not associating with OM's friends. She has made some wierd statements as well regarding when I go back to the states (happening either way I would love to stay here with her but even if we stay married I need to secure a future for my family) Such as keeping the joint account. Divorce is no longer all that is on her mind. And she has been appearing to actually be paying attention not just to me but to the family unit as a whole. 

She got invited out again this weekend.The last one was innocent. Got outside sources with pictures and know what happened and it really was just to girls hanging out. This time though she told her friend I can't go all weekend again its not fair to my family (she didn't say kids she said family) and let me think about it. She then and came talked to me before giving her friend an answer.

She even talked about having a date night with me. Looks like the mix bag of advice I got from everyone here is working.Not going to get my hopes to high. 

Been riding a roller coaster latley. I am settled with what happens either way mentaly. Emotionaly still a decent amount of pain to deal with. Which has to be dealt with either way.

One last observation its funny how they aren't in love with you anymore but the moment you quit offering everything up on a silver platter they start showing care and concern again.


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## jeffsmith77 (Mar 19, 2011)

Niceguy13 said:


> One last observation its funny how they aren't in love with you anymore but the moment you quit offering everything up on a silver platter they start showing care and concern again.


That's the ticket. Once you pull away, they realize that they may lose you forever. Good job! I'm still trying to get to that point...


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

jeffsmith77 said:


> That's the ticket. Once you pull away, they realize that they may lose you forever. Good job! I'm still trying to get to that point...


Its easy to get to that point Jeff the hard part is staying at that point.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

jeffsmith77 said:


> That's the ticket. Once you pull away, they realize that they may lose you forever. Good job! I'm still trying to get to that point...


And this is also the reason why it is so important to let go of them fast once they say they want out. The longer you cling and are available to them as an emotional crutch, the worse for you, for them, for any chance of a possible reconciliation.

The sooner you stop meeting their emotional needs/support system, the better for you and the quicker they realize the consequence of their action. I had to go black-dark as soon as I told my ex that it was the marriage or nothing else. I dont think he ever thought I'd let go.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> And this is also the reason why it is so important to let go of them fast once they say they want out. The longer you cling and are available to them as an emotional crutch, the worse for you, for them, for any chance of a possible reconciliation.
> 
> The sooner you stop meeting their emotional needs/support system, the better for you and the quicker they realize the consequence of their action. I had to go black-dark as soon as I told my ex that it was the marriage or nothing else. I dont think he ever thought I'd let go.


Have to agree there. She wasonly able to handle about 36 hours of I don't give a **** me, I am stillswitching it on here and there. After three years of I don't give a **** her I think it was a rude awakening. That talk I had her one day as well where I told her I will fight for my marrige up until the point the divorce is final, once that happens that's it I am moving on I will not be your second choice rocked her.

She is stillonly meeting me halfway but every step she is taking forward right now I am moving one more back. We have veered so far off into lala land thatmy new position was on her side of the road so trying to walk her back to the middle of the road if that makes any sense at all.

Sunday is talk day and dun dun dun paperwork day. Which of course she has no real idea what to do on the paperwork and neither do I, and she doesn't want to talk to legal. 

Oh forgot another funny thing make sure you are pushed away from your desk or firmly buckled in your chair. remeber how I said she didn't want to go to counseling............ Before she sends me to the states in order to get it approved there must be a minimum of one counceling session with councilor saying it is beyond repair and is detrimental to the goverment :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: I just really hope the councilor is not a push over yes man and says that it has to be some group sessions for him/her to make a deciscion.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

LOL. That IS funny, Nice. Are you prepping your questions for the counselling session? 

The counsellor will be an objective party. In the end, it will be up to you guys to stay or leave the marriage.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Haha I have my questions semi formed yes. My brain never shuts off so stuff always gets added and removed. Yes I have important stuff locked in there. If s/he makes us do couple counciling before approving I am just going to work on our communication skills and such. Like I said before I take my fault for the state my marriage is in,I have forgiven myself(mostly) and forgiven her (mostly) and am activley fixing the things I can control (me.) 

She has done a great job of opening up to me latley and have been feeling sparks latley, but I still think she is living in the what if I was single fog. Yes she hadan EA possibly a PA but for her it really is the "choked in family" feeling. The real affair isn't with another OM he was just a tool the real affair is for her sense of loss of freedom.

We got together when we were 20 married shortly after 21 and pregnant shortly after married. Her military career has hit a dead end (to many bad commands back to back) her self esteem has gotton better since being with me but she is still to "nice" and to afraid to hurt people. Finances aren't as goo as they could be so we don't get to do as much as we want to do. Usualy have to dig us a small hole to do something truley fun. Date nights were slim to none (though she has expressed intrest in going out jsut me and her.) Male friends I don't mind her having but obviously I want to know them and know they respect me and my marriage (she is a beautiful woman honestly and most of her male coworkers don't respect me) her female coworkers for the most part are either A) commitment fearing, male ba mouthers or B) single and some married women that have no respect for marriage.

In general with the problems we were having on our own added in with an extremley toxic enviorment (that due to being military there is no way out of) she has to find something she can control for all her misery. *waves hand* My family (myself and my two wonderful children) got to be the source of the turmoil. 

It is that responsibility free life that is calling her and quite honestly she can never have that again. Even if she divorces me and "divorces" the kids she is going to have to deal with responsibilities. She will help me pay for their care even if she is not in their lives. Been showing tough love there and forcing her to live up to the responsibilities of her choices. True Freedom has nothing to do with the amount of choices offered but owning the consequences of the choices made. I think that is starting to dawn on her. Not there yet but it is.


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## jeffsmith77 (Mar 19, 2011)

Niceguy13 said:


> True Freedom has nothing to do with the amount of choices offered but owning the consequences of the choices made. I think that is starting to dawn on her. Not there yet but it is.


Ain't that the truth. It seems that maybe the reality is sinking in for her, and she's not quite ready. From what I read in your post, she is warming up to you a bit more. It's interesting seeing the changes in you two from your first post to your latest. You maintain a great attitude about the whole thing (either you're following nonchalance knowingly, or it's just your personality). I hope for the best for you, and based on what you're saying, it seems like you're as prepared as one can be for any scenario.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

I am a neo-pagan (i.e. polytheists but non of that new age wiccan crap or wannabe old age wiccan or whatever it is my beliefs about the powers that be come from what my heart tells me to be true, like I know Jesus did die for someone's sins but they weren't mine) but the core of my belief system is modeled after zen buddahism. Posting on here and talking with everyone helped me apply my faith to my own personal crisis. To end it with something zen like,

One can not make the flower grow, one can only offer the oppurtunity for the flower to grow, it is then up to the flower to grow.


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## jeffsmith77 (Mar 19, 2011)

Niceguy13 said:


> One can not make the flower grow, one can only offer the oppurtunity for the flower to grow, it is then up to the flower to grow.


I love it. It's great that you have your beliefs which can help you cope with your situation. It's during times like this where people like us can find some true strength, and grow as a result of our challenges. I consider myself agnostic, so I don't have faith to help me through this. Instead, I'm doing some inner reflection. It's surprising, and pretty terrifying, that I've found so much about myself that I'm not happy with, and have been ignoring for years. But I'm on the path to becoming the man I've always wanted to be. And I wouldn't be on that path without going through everything I'm going through. It's amazing that we can see positively, to "offer the opportunity for the flower to grow" during times like this.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

you might want to look into Zen it requires no belief in a higher power per say. Its great for introspecting. More about always striving to better yourself you can only control your world and not others worlds etc and so forth. Unfettered Sword is a great introduction make sure you just get the regular version of it and not like a version for buisness gurus so the lines remain mostly untouched. Book of Five Rings is another great one though it deals mainly with the martial arts from an outward appearance Musashi really challenges the disciple to master himself.


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## LonelyNLost (Dec 11, 2010)

Sounds like things are going okay, niceguy! I think if I had really seen what was going on a long time ago and not played into the whole "depression" thing, my results could have been different. Instead I just pushed him away because I believed his lies and kept being a doormat. Sucks. It's too far gone now.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Haha well thanks LnL but this weekend was a horrible one. We started the serperation paperwork as it is needed to get me back to the states. Some things were said and I ended up going off. Not yelling or screaming or anything but revealed tomuch and said to much. In effect reseting all the work I have done. Ended up pouring my heart out all Sunday. I know stupid stupid stupid.

Talked to her how to me felt like her actions were selfish. It was a long talk but what she took away from it was I said she as a selfish ***** beause I quit using the word behaviour and acting like and just started saying selfish. I knew it was the wrong thing to do before I did it.I just couldn't stop myself.

So yeah bad bad Sunday. I buckled I caved. I let the fact that she chose not to love me anymore get to me. Fitness test failed. 

Some good points out of it all she finaly showed some remorse. She didn't voice it at all but it was there in her face.


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## jeffsmith77 (Mar 19, 2011)

Niceguy13 said:


> Some things were said and I ended up going off. Not yelling or screaming or anything but revealed tomuch and said to much. In effect reseting all the work I have done. Ended up pouring my heart out all Sunday. I know stupid stupid stupid.


It's hard, I know. I opened up and revealed too much to my ex a while back, but sometimes it's hard to contain ourselves. Just keep in mind that you two have made some good progress as well; try to think of that too.



Niceguy13 said:


> Some good points out of it all she finaly showed some remorse. She didn't voice it at all but it was there in her face.


See? It wasn't a total loss. This seems to be a recurring theme with her. Just about every post from you lately calls-out some signs of her coming around a bit. I just hope that you're not misinterpreting her emotions. It can be easy for us to see what we want to see in times like this.


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## Giulietta (Apr 21, 2011)

Nice to see how people's beleifs help. Even the most difficult situations help you become a better person and evolve your consciousness. I've been reading Nonviolent Communication by M Rosenberg which helps you to express yourself in a way as to not cause the other person to become defensive, see everyone with compassion, connect with what they really need and not take things personally. Bhagavad Gita and A New Earth by Ekhart Tolle have also helped to see others with love and their actions as stemming from a false sense of ego coming from previous conditioning which is not who they really are deep down etc.
Flower is a nice analogy. I use a similar one in regards to love, the seed is there, but you have to give it regular water and sun for it to grow and blossom, otherwise it will dry up.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Sorry to hear you had a setback. It's totally normal though.

Do you feel better knowing the sep. papers have started?


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Ladies and gentlemen E-coaster brought to you by the fine folks of D-day is about to disembark. Please remeber to keep your hands with in the vehicle at all times. Pregnant mothers, People with heart conditions and the eldery should not ride this ride. You must be this tall to ride. Thank you enjoy your trip.


Yes and no Jellybeans. Some of it wasn'tdone right and apprently my "setback" was actualy a good thing. Well I don't think it was nessicarly my setback her friend yesterday went through her own crisis about people not listening to her etc and so forth. She ended up going to lunch with us and she was talking about it and my wife is sitting their offering sympathy to her friend then she finaly looked over at me and saw me smiling, not necisarly a nice smile either it was the more see. So when we got home we handled the sep paper work changes together then we talked. Not yelled at each other not one person dominating just sat there and talked.

I asked her to go to counciling as my friend and the mother of my children. Not in an effort to save our marriage but an effort to save our friendship and to ensure we don't be come bitter people that used the children as weapons. She said she would think about it. She told me she isn't sure when she is going to file for divorce that she is putting a lot of thought into not doing it (that was her just telling me) and talked about some other non essential stuff but stuff that has been going on. Spent a good hour just chit chatting. 

Apparently my "setback" about her being selfish and just needing someone to blame hit home on some level. I still don't think she is taking the blame herself (for the things she did not the things I did) but maybe it was the "tough" love she needed.If so her friend helped with that unknowingly.

Thank god for friends having an emotional breakdown of the sort that forces WS to face everything the LS just told them. In other news I am getting confirming reports that OM is completley gone (and has been since she told me Divorce). I am not pretty sure the guy was being used as a tool. I am begining to actualy believe her nothing physical happened she just needed me as "crazy" as possible to make things easier for her. Not to mention he has tried manipulating situations to get time with her again they work in the same command and quiting isn't an option in the military) and the looks of disgust she has given and used when talking about it (not directed at me) make the looks and tone of voice used on me the past few months seem loving and caring.

We are actualy making lots of plans to get out together a lot of it started by her. I am no where near thinking my marrige is saved. And I am not getting my hopes up (expect the worst hope for the best that way you are never disapointed) but things are looking bright.


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## jeffsmith77 (Mar 19, 2011)

Niceguy13 said:


> We are actualy making lots of plans to get out together a lot of it started by her. I am no where near thinking my marrige is saved. And I am not getting my hopes up (expect the worst hope for the best that way you are never disapointed) but things are looking bright.


You and that zen attitude... it's inspiring.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

jeffsmith77 said:


> You and that zen attitude... it's inspiring.


Tell you what it wasn't inspiring my Easter Sunday. Horrible horrible horrible fraking day. Well actualy it wasn't all that bad. first we did the sep paperwork. Then there was the 2 hour suppose tobe talk that turned into a lecture about her acting selfish emotionaly. The thirty minutes where I forced ehr to confront me instead of running off to talk to someone else. Honestly I think that is what saved the 2 hour talk. I made her take her frustration out on me. No I did not physicaly restrain her after our talk she went to the bedroom to change talking how she needs to get out blahblah. I just closed the bedroom door and stood in front of it. All she would of had to do was try to open the door and I would of moved. Instead she let her anger out at me and it felt good.

Then the thirty minutes of my sins of the father (very emotionaly abusive man who has made me believe I can do nothing but f*** things up.) After that we watched the Dark Knight together on the couch. The kids came out and joined us. Then went to the theater watched Beastly (pretty decent movie though the conflict moment was underdeveloped)

Came home handed her a letter that I had been working on earlier that day. Talked about said letter (again mostly me I am a wordy person in case you all haven't noticed) started to utrn into a lecture so I stopped myself. Went to the bedroom got myself un verbaly dominating came back out and chatted some about the events of the day and some about other stuff. Then went to bed.

There was nothing Zen about my easter Sunday though. I am still unsure how much it hurt or helped things. I know minus the sins of my father thing it made me feel better.It was all stuff I needed to unload. I didn't let her emotionaly victimize me in fact the letter was about if you keep thinking of me as just the bad guy I am going to start being the bad guy. Right now I am the good guy and you are trying to portray me as the bad guy but you know what I can make it easy for you I can be the bad guy because if I am going to get credit for being the bad guy then I am going to do it with style.

Yes obviously I still have unresolved issues about things that happened Sunday.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Great news. She has agreed to counciling. And has agreed to it on her own for her reasons. Yes she wants to go to salvage friendship and to ensure we can live apart but still comunicate properly about the kids and we won't be playing mommy vs daddy games with the kids. But it is a step. She wants to do it, not for me but for her. Huzzah. I know its not much but its a small victory and one I will take. I know we aren't magicaly better, and I know she isn't going to fix us. But she is going with an open mind non resentful and an open heart. With how many weekends she went out this past month 4 out of 5 (some of them were day trips some of them were over nights all of them were girl trips and as stated before got my sources that is all they were and they are reliable sources) she also told me she is not going out any weekend in May. 

Trying to remain calm and stay on the course. Its hard right now I am just so happy that she is starting to make "concessions." She is also sick today which gives me a chance to be the man she loves. Take care of her and do the things she loves about me and remind her not through words but through actions that I am a good man. Gonna sit on the couch probaly with her head in my lap and watch glee while playing with her hair and letting her nap off and on waking her up for the stuff she cares about.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Well yesterday went well. Downloaded some little casual games for her to play. I had talked to my FIL earlier in the day shared with her what he had to say that wasn't privateman to man. Not that I could share those things as if she brought it up to him he would deny it to her obviously she is his daughter.

She talked more about the not going out next month on the weekends. The way things were worded it sounded like she knew she was being unfair to me and the kids and seeking "happiness" outside of the family. Not going to confront her on it. But she suggested us go out to one of the beaches for memorial day weekend possiblystay in a hotel for a night or two and just get away from the base. Of course I complied as it gives me a chance to highlight positive me.

Counciling first session is today at 5pm after she gets off work. Thats right she agreed to it and I moved fast like a viper before she could back down  It is still under the pretense of communication so kinda "tricked" her into going. Don't get me wrong communication is something we need to work on either way as even if we do Divorce (which hasn't been as concrete for her recently) she will still be in my life due to my two wonderful children. I am hoping though that with some joint counciling she willbe willing to seek individual counciling and we can move together as a couple. Not counting on it at all but a man is allowed to hope.

As for me and indivdual counciling I have my missues and demons but I really need the joint stuff on how to communicate better how to listen better and most importantlyhow to express myself better. I know I seem like I do such a good job here but I really do come off in person as a judgemental ass and that has to be hard for my spouse.


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## jeffsmith77 (Mar 19, 2011)

This is great news, and you deserve it. Giving you two some time to spend together, away from some of the stresses in life, will be a great thing. It's time she's reminded of why she fell in love with you in the first place.

I'm also happy to hear about her agreement to go to counseling. It shows that she's not giving up just yet. I take all of these updates as positive steps, but I hope you don't get too wrapped-up in the moment. Maintain that zen outlook my friend, and keep sending out the good news!


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

jeffsmith77 said:


> This is great news, and you deserve it. Giving you two some time to spend together, away from some of the stresses in life, will be a great thing. It's time she's reminded of why she fell in love with you in the first place.
> 
> I'm also happy to hear about her agreement to go to counseling. It shows that she's not giving up just yet. I take all of these updates as positive steps, but I hope you don't get too wrapped-up in the moment. Maintain that zen outlook my friend, and keep sending out the good news!


Believe me Jeff I am not. But negative me is going to get nowhere so I have to see the little things she is doing and support those actions no matter how small. If things still don't work out then they don't work out but I will be able to walk away knowing I did everything possible in a loving way. And ten years when the kids have questions I can tell them honestly I did everything besides force your mother to stay in the marriage and I have no regrets. I didn't give up for the woman I loved (no matter what I will have love for her in my heart) but I couldn't force her to love me.

I think that is what I am looking for if she decides to divorce me no matter what. That ability to look my children in the eye and tell them yes their father did everything possible that was constructive. That is something neither of my parents can give me. My mother is a dirty crack *****...no I am not exagerating that is what she is and my dad just gives up on everyone when things are hardest for them. I don't want to be like either them especialy my father at least my mother has being a drug addict for an excuse.

Above paragraph is another reason I bonded with my in-laws so well. They accepted meopen arms with love and support and even going through this as long as I don't try to make them pick a side (which I wouldn't) they have been very supportive and loving of me. The conversation with my FIL was him making sure she didn't think she was just going to walk out on everything. He was going to chew her out if he didn't think the settlement agreement was fair to me and my kids....yeah I know pretty amazing people huh.


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## jeffsmith77 (Mar 19, 2011)

Just remember, she fell in love with you on her own, and it's possible she could do it again. Just keep being the man that she fell in love with in the first place.

I'm sorry to hear that you come from such a troubled family. It's great that the in-laws are such amazing people. Plus, it seems that they really do care for you. I know the feeling. My would-have-been in-laws are amazing people. In fact, they are truthfully some of the greatest people I've ever known. I'm closer with her family than I am my own, I hate to say. But they've been supportive, although distant. Still, it's a great feeling knowing that the other family truly loves you.

You're putting in a valiant fight, and I'm glad to hear that you're proud of your efforts. At the end of the day, you can't change her mind. Only she can do that. Recognizing this, like you have, is a huge step. Your kids will recognize that no matter what the outcome is, you really did try your hardest to keep the family together.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I am glad to hear she is willing to do counselling. That is definitely a big step


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Well first councilling session went about as well can be expected. I wasn't expecting a sudden change of heart but she finaly started being honest not only with me but with herself. She admitted she checked out three years ago and hasn't done anything to check back in. Admitted that she feels like it is is to late.

I was able to finaly express my feelings and with help her hear my feelings. Granted its not everything still a lot to work through but its a start. She later admitted that night that each day a little more she is thinking divorce isn't the answer. She is still more on the divorce side and has a long way to go but she admitted that day by day I am changing her mind. 

So whether we get a divorce or not we are finaly working on our issues. She has promised to keep an open heart in regards to me and this past month she has. I don't say that because of ehr words but because of her actions.

Had a minor flare up last night after the session. My boy had described he wanted to ask mommy questions but was scared. I couldn't answer the questions for him and I refused to ask them for him (in him not around) Right now he has a very large fear that if he makes mommy unhappy that she is going to quit loving him as well. So I had him sit next to me and talk to mommy told him before the conversation if he is worried he can whisper in my ear and I will ask the questions for him. Well he started to talk and then got scared so I told him that I was there for him and would protect him.

Wife initialy reacted badly after he left saying I was blaming her for our children being messed up and was very aggresive and hostile (justifying her choices) I told her that I handled this to the bet of my ability. That our children were hurting and I was giving her the chance to help ease the pain. If she keeps making me a bad guy when I am not being one I will start acting like one. She then calmed down and told me it was that line that upset her. We then talked real quick about the whole its all her fault.

I calmly and lovingly told her, Yes our kids are messed up right now. Did you think this wasn't going to affect them? (she replied no) I had nothing to do with wanting a divorce/seperating, you wanted it. You are the one who emotionaly detached not me so yes it is your fault.I didn't blame you a few minutes ago you felt like I did because you feel guilt over it. Because quite honestly we both know in this particular case yes it is you that is causing the disturbance. If you prefer I can quit sharing with you what the kids are telling me they feel about you? I do not want to because they will grow to resent you. She told me back in a nice tone that she understood and she agreed that despite that one line I couldn't of handled it better.

The legal seperation paperwork is all finished, just waiting on the final draft now and then will have my legal aid go over it one last time with me. We have not begun working on the moral conduct of the seperation though as she does not have an answer to my question yet. The Question being now that you are finaly being who you feel you are openly and honestly are you going to give your family (me and the kids) an honest chance.

I realize for three years she has been unhappy and I have caused her a lot of pain.I also know for three years I was trying to get her to open up to me and if she would of alot of this would be negated.I can't rewind time though so I have to worry bout the now. Now that she is ready to be open and honest with herself and others, now that she is opening her heart to me, I really do feel their is a chance for us as long as she stays honest, but she has to make that concious deciscion to "give love another shot" If she is unwilling to make that deciscion then as soon as I get back to the states I will begin moving on. Not saying going to date immediatley but am saying i am going to start preparing myself to get on proverbial market and most likley will be dating within a year.

If she doesn't have an answer for me and if we can not agree on the terms of our seperation then when she starts missing this life we had together (the good parts of it not the bad) then I wille pretty much deaf. As often said here on TAM the ball is in her court she has to decide if she wants me on her team or not.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Just reread my entire thread wow all that progress in just over a little a month and talking about me progress as well as us progress.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Well Sunday was a good day if not rough. We sat around played hidden picture games all day on the comp together. Some laughs and chuckles involved. She has been really trying to include me in activities latley. Hey I want a divorce but do you want to spend all this time with me? I am taking the time though have to highlight positive me and steer clear of negative me.

Later in the day she went out shopping for groceries. She came back made a pie while I did dishes a little bit later she cooked a dinner for the family. Once the kids were done with dinner we gave them pie and watched Beauty and The Beast all out together in the living room with the family. Lots of smiles and laughs between the two of us.

Really wanted to bring stuff but I kept on checking myself reminding myself our second MC is on weds. She is really starting to treat me with some love again and alot more respect. I think the respect is here for good I am unsure if whether the love is a ploy or not.

She has quit making comments subtley as well. She went to make a subtle comment about the floor being vacuumed and changed it to can you vacuum the floor tomorrow. She has duty tonight so shouldn't be an update we will see what tuesday brings though.


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## jeffsmith77 (Mar 19, 2011)

Niceguy13 said:


> Really wanted to bring stuff but I kept on checking myself reminding myself our second MC is on weds. She is really starting to treat me with some love again and alot more respect. I think the respect is here for good I am unsure if whether the love is a ploy or not.


I'm so happy to hear this. I honestly believe that MC is an amazing thing, so long as the couple realizes that it doesn't fix the problem, but gives you the skills to fix the problem yourself. I hope that she continues to treat you so well, but remember that she may slip into her old habits every now and again. Just be prepared, and be willing to accept it. For now, keep being the man that makes her want to act this way, and I'll keep my fingers crossed for you and your family.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Haha still a lot to work through, not sure if we are going to or not. She seems to realize that alot of the actions she is divorcing me for were caused by her own actions. She hasn't completley owned it yet, as I have the things that were not her caused. Still one day at a time. Its getting hard to walk the proverbial knife edge though. Might try to talk with her some minus a councilor when she gets off work today. Might also just trying cold shoulder non responsive with her. Defnitley a day to shake the tree some more and see what comes falling down.


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## jeffsmith77 (Mar 19, 2011)

You know her better than anyone, so it's your call, but I would be hesitant to give her the cold shoulder. You've been loving and supportive, and she's warming up to you again. If you were to change your behavior, it may push her away. You have made some great progress, I would suggest to keep things the way they are and let her do some more processing.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Yeah not sure which route I am going to go... I don't know rough day I guess for me. Just have new issues I want resolved so to say


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## jeffsmith77 (Mar 19, 2011)

All part of the rollercoaster... Try to get your mind to a calm place, then think about how you'll want to approach things. You're entitled to rough days, but that's not the time to evaluate how you'll handle the issues.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Not rough in that way. No emotional breakdowns are anything. Just realised last night my tank is on empty and its painful to be parked right in front of the gas station so to speak. Every day I am getting closer and closer to ultimatum day. I don't mean it as an ultimatum but I know that is how it will be taken. The more and more she opens up and talks about what is going on with her the more I think what a crock. The only thing that has been holding me back is the kids. And only then because once I leave here it will be a long time before they see their mother again. Yes she is treating me with more respect yes she is treating me with more love even if she doesn't realise its that, but she still isn't committed to trying something new in our relationship. I was unhappy with the status quo as well. We have an honest chance to change the dynamic of our relationship and if she isn't going to take that chance then I should kick her out. 

Its the whole I haven't been happy I am working on a better me and the first thing I am going to do is the same thing I have always done run from challenge and hardship in my life. She has an answer (read: justification for everything,) well I am working on me for me, my kids and yes to an extent her, when is she going to work on herself like she says she needs to? Why the hell does she need a divorce if she just needs to refind herself? It all comes out hollow if you know what I mean. Do I think its because of another man..no I can honestly say i don't. I do honestly believe she is in a ****ed up place right now with her emotions and mindset, she got lost in being the perfect mother perfect wife and quit being herself yes, but how about she tries putting some freaking energy into her relationship and see how things go. Try actually listening to the things that really drive me crazy and acting upon them. Do more then just run away. I know I can't force her to do any of that, but I can stop enabling her spiral as painful as it would be by putting my foot down. Not sure what I will do yet, like I said the amount of time the children will be away from their mother complicates thing some because I am a good father and know it is going to be hard for them to not be around mommy for that long of a time. I am willing to make that sacrifice of pain for them, but I am getting to the point I can't bear that cross anymore and if I get to the point where I can't it will be the children that suffer the most and they are innocent in all this.

**** me being a good father is hard.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Well mixed bag weekend. Friday was pretty timid and lame. Saturday we stayed up watched a movie, I had suggested camping in the living room but she semi missed the point though said we will do it this weekend. Mothers day she went out on a trip in the morning came home and seemed to enjoy the presents and cards from everyone. Cooked her dinner nothing to special just something she hasn't had for a while. Watched Stone....killed the night stupid stupid movie.

Monday was a mix bagged in and of itself. She asked me why it seemed like as soon as we got in the house I always seemed to switch modes. Did my best to explain without being accusing. Later after doing dishes I left a spot of water on the floor. She chided me with a honey...I didn't react to much even though it was said in a joking manner, then she said honey did you hear what I said, started to say yes I smiled then realized the second time she emphasized the honey and she just called me honey twice,


Today is suppose to be counciling day. Pretty nervous as she is suppose to be answering a pretty big question for me today, that being if you need space and time for yourself why do you need a divorce, she told me yesterday not to worry about it and not dwell on it. That reassures me but only up to a point.


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## jeffsmith77 (Mar 19, 2011)

It'll be interesting to hear how the counseling session goes. To me, it sounds like she's reconsidering the big D, but I wonder if she's ready to make that call just yet. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you...


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Please remember that no matter how hard it is or how upset you are, you should not deprive your children of their mother. It does not matter that it is "her doing." She is their mom and they love her; losing her for a while will feel like abandonment and, if you are playing a role in it, you are just as guilty as she is for what they will suffer. It's one thing if a parent just moves away and never wants to connect, never calls, etc. You can't do anything about that. But you can and must--for their sake--do as much as you can to make sure they do not experience abandonment when it is NOT her choice to abandon them, but rather her choice to leave you. There is such a difference. This is what makes divorce so hard on kids, being torn between parents, separated willfully from one because the other is angry and hurt and will not see the role they are playing in the damage to the kids.

It is harder than hell to allow her to continue to have a role in their life, and you may think she does not deserve it. But, no matter how awful she is, she is still their mom and even if it is just supervised visits and phone calls, it needs to happen. It is better all around and as they grow up, they will form their own judgment of her. If you make this about her leaving THEM because she wants to separate from you, they will figure that out too and ultimately this can rebound in a very negative way. They won't forgive you for keeping her away from them, and that is how they will see it unless she is physically incapable of visiting due to distance. In fact, you should go the extra mile to make sure they have contact with her so that she can never get away with telling them "your father wouldn't let me see you." They will seek her out when older and her version of things may get more weight than yours unless they have the evidence that you made the effort to keep them in touch with their mom. Be the bigger person, for the sake of your kids.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

I hear what you are saying Sister but its not just me she is leaving not in this case. If during her "unhappy" periods she would of been there for the kids instead of shunning them as well my feelings would be a lot different. Thats why I closed about bearing the cross for them. If I was back stateside, had no kids etc this would all be a lot easier and I would be a lot more cold about things. She has been better with the children since I tore into her about it and since then she has asked for further clarification. I think she is really realizing how much pain she caused the family over the years.

I come from a broken home I don't want that for my children, if it has to happen I am going to have very very firm boundries whether she likes it or not, apparently her parents have the same boundries which has her worried that I will have a lot of support in enforcing those boundires. For example I have already told her when she gets back to the states 18months later there is not going to be another man with my children when they spend time with her. It is not fair to them to not have seen their mother for 18months and have to adjust to not only her but mommmy's new boyfriend. (obviously that is a worse case scenario) I told her last week that if she goes to stay the night at a friends house every night she will not be in the house everyday its to damaging to the kids. Its not to keep her from them or anything on that like its just to damn confusing when they want mommy and daddy to stay together.

I have been through a lot of what your describing in fact my entire side of the family has and I have faith that my children will grow up and know the truth about me no matter how things turn out. I know her parents will support me in decicions I make especialy my FIL. 

Like I was saying its just hard to bear that cross and I needed to express it and get it out let out the frustration I am not a saviour are a martyr so when I am burdended with a cross for other people I feel it and I do cry out.

@Jeff thanks, I hope it goes well as well. I know I will be fine either way given time of course, but I also know what I want for myself and my children and yes in a way even for her. I knew the woman I married warts and accept her warts and all its just hard that the warts I knew of and accepted her for are now turning against me but been appealing to that other side of her lately with some success.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

So cpounciling session got postponed by councilor is now Thursday waiting 2 more days for the answer to the next big question. Couldn't sleep last night wrote something down, wanted to share it and get advice opinions.

Couldn't sleep last night so I decided to write. I have been being a etter man, not just for you but for myself. I am doing my best to open and share my feelings with you in a non hurtful way. I have some I need to share, but I do not know how. I realize you are unhappy, I truley do, but the things you have said and done in the past 1/2 year or so do not add up.One day you say you haven't loved me for three years, the next it was that "last" fight. You say you only talked to him because he was suicidal, but you never cared that talking to him made me "suicidal" (suicidal not in qutoes in the letter because she knows I am very anti-suicide and would never do it but I did have the thoughts) 

Time and time again in the past few years you have put other men's feelings before mine. You say I never listened to you and in some regards you are right, but you also never gave me second chances to prove the times I did.
How can I show you change if you won't give me the chance? How can you love me when you put everyone else first? I do not want a divorce. 

I know there are things you have to do. I accept and respect that, but there are also things I have to do. We made promises to each other nine years ago. I have given you everything you said you neded and tried for more. You quite simply have not. If you refuse to honor your promises to me and continue to force me out of your life I will walk out of your life. I will never bad mouth you to our children but yes some of those choices do involve the children. If you force me out of your life I do not know if I will ever be able to consider you a friend.

You see I gave you my heart. I have always loved and supported you, but if you leave me because love is hard and takes work, because you were unwilling to be my partner in all things like you promised, because marrying me meant you had kids to early that ruined your life I wont be able to forgive you. I can forgive the emotional abuse suffered the past three years (I am coming to realize that what she has put me through is emotional abuse whether she meant to or not) I can forgive you divorcing me if we give it an honest go and it doesn't work out, I can not forgive you though if you spent the past three years turning me into a neurotic mess just so you can justify leaving me. I can't forgive you if you actually allow the feelings for a man you should of never gotton involved with be the reason you divorced me, shattered my dreams, and took away part of my children's childhood.

The ball is truley in your court now. Are you going to step up to the challenge of being the wife and mother that you can be or are you going to continue to try to be the person you could of been? Are you going to be the example and hero to your children that teaches them to try to live up to their word and value other's feelings or the woman who emotionaly ****ed up their father possibly for life.

The last paragraph I am really worried about. It seems rather judgemental to me, but at the same time it is how I feel. My children have already commented on what mommy is doing to daddy. No I haven't said anything bad about her to them I smile make sure they know its not their fault tell them some things they have to ask their mother about and do my best to detach my pain when answering their questions, but yes I do think my children will end up not respecting her for doing what she did, well if they grow up to be happy healthy adults and I plan on making sure they do grow up to be that and with the help of my in-laws I will accomplish it. So thoughts opinions should I keep that letter as a venting exercise or should I share it with her, change it share it with her.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Waaaaaay too much emotion.

Ask less questions, state what you need and want from the marriage, that you are willing to work it out w/ her. Don't say you can't forgive her. Don't use self-depracating comments "you f*cked up their father."
State your boundaries, be firm, sound confident.

NO NO NO to what you wrote.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

OK so keep it as a venting exercise then *check*
thanks Jelly. Been doing the other stuff when having the chance just needed to purge negativity last night and it felt good then was unsure what to do with the negativity.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Oh btw I have decided that if I somehow save my marriage and end up with a second daughter her nickname is going to be Jellybean. Owe you alot thanks for being mean and telling me when I am being stupid


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Niceguy13 said:


> Oh btw I have decided that if I somehow save my marriage and end up with a second daughter her nickname is going to be Jellybean. Owe you alot thanks for being mean and telling me when I am being stupid


Why, thank you. I am honored to know there could be a little baby Jellybean named after me.  

Yes do not give that letter to her at all. Just use it to vent. I will go over it with you if you truly want to give her something in writing (I think writing things is helpful) but keep that one for yourself, mmmkay?


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Not a problem glad my gut told me to check on it before giving it to her. I have been working on my needs but right now she isn't willing to listen to my needs for a succesful marriage but I guess I really should work on my needs for a succesful divorce with friendship if that is even possible. Or should it be what I need to get a divorce and remain a friend with you I hinted at that stuff in my venting letter but it came off as you said emotional instead of No this is what I want and I will not tolerate less


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## LonelyNLost (Dec 11, 2010)

Jellybean rocks! ALWAYS run your letters by them. I just sent two kickass ones with her help.  Baby jellybean, lol. Maybe I'll name my next pet jellybean.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Aw, I feel so loved


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Will work on that list and get it posted here Jelly would like to work on it in the open with you that way it might just help someone else as well if you don't mind


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Yeah that's fine. Write away.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Alright well won't be right now its midnight here just was having things on my mind again so came out here and hung out with all you TAM people instead of tossing and turning in bed. Wait past midnight sorry, will probaly start it up tomorrow get a rough draft up my friday which is your thurs I believe for you to help me out on


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Ok sounds good


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

Hey Niceguy13- was reading your thread and it looks like you've done a pretty nice job of getting your wife to "somewhat" come down from the ledge. One thing I do see, is that you really haven't emotionally disconnected from her. You still are kind of sitting on her emotions like, "What is tonight going to be like? Is she going to spend time with me? " These, in itself, are not bad. BUT, they are hindering your ability to seperate and really take a strong look at yourself as a person. She CANNOT affect you. You got to get that self confidence back. 

You really have to "shelve" your feelings right now. Telling her the consequences of a possible divorce is only going to piss her off. It comes across to her as you are underestimating her pain. To a woman, very bad. She is in emotional dissarray. 

All of these are not make or break issues, but you can really start to kickstart the progress.


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## broken1 (May 10, 2011)

Niceguy13 - Also just got done reading your story. You have absolutely made progress over the last month. Might still seem bleak to you, but I'm envious of where you're at. Sounds like you did a great job fairly early in your situation of not getting sucked in by your emotions. Wish I had done that... Took me about 2 months to realize how destructive I was being.

Anyway, it really does sound like you have a lot to work with. Keep it up! I have considered writing a letter similar to the one you wrote but... not sure how receptive W would be. How did yours do with it? has she read it yet?


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

That last particulatr letter was not given to her nor will it ever be given to her, was me up late venting and wasn't sure what to do with it afterwards. So I posted it here looking for advice. I have wanted to tell her the consequences in a non feeling way for a while now. I get what you are saying D2H, but her whole plan surmises pretty much to I divorce you I am happy. 

The emotional disconnect thing is hard for me, though I have done a much better job of not being happy/unhappy soley because of her. If she is in a receptive mood then I treat her warmly if she is acting "stupid" then I just ignore her. She doesn't like it when I turn off and it really is only turning off to her when the kids come in the room and start engaging I engage with them. Its more me no longer me trying to force her to be happy, she wants to be in a pissy mood I allow her to be I just show her (not tell her) the consequences of her behaviour. 

Unfortunatley no matter how hard I try she is going to affect me as it were, but I am doing my best to "pretend" that she can't affect me. Defnitley working on getting that confidence and self worth back. My Self esteem is pretty high its just my self worth that took a nose dive.

Which actually leads me to the events of yesterday which was a very interesting day. Kid needed to go to the doctor (she works at the clinic) dropped the daughter off with her so I wouldn't have to deal with both. When I show up she had a coworker in there and he was trying to show pictures off of his little girl. She pretty much ignored me no hi or anything so instead of lingering and forcing it I told her ok going to kid's appoitment and walked out.

After appoitment was amost time for her to get off and had to wait for the script to be put in. So sat down there with her for a bit. A series of events happened that triggered me ending with her "suddenly" wanting me to get out of the office. Not saying she really suddenly wanted me out fo the office but I got triggered so thats what I felt like. I got obviously upset and she tried to ask me what was up with me. Well as I was triggered and she was at work I just said don't worry about it and walked off. While waiting for the script she got off came out there and asked me again. I was no longer triggered so I explained.

to be continued


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

OK back sorry had to take the boy to school. 

So when we got home things went really well. Ordered a pizza as it has been raining pretty hard here niether of us wanted to get out of the car to buy groceries. While waiting for the pizza she decided to take a shower. My little girl's friend was over so looked over at the wife and said you are lucky. She asked me why. Told her (not in an asked or told as a question) Been waiting for the chance for you to take a shower because I was going to be in there with you. She gave back an honest flirty smile. Later when my girls friend left I went back there for whatever reason think I had a question to ask or some such. Gave her hair a quick stroke after asking said stupid question (had to of been a stupid one because I don't remeber what it was about) damn woman had just finished putting conditioner in her hair. She laughed at me so I wiped it off on her breast got a physical reaction from her but instead of staying I just smiled and walked out. (thought it would be good to show her I could make a playful sexual touch without it going all sexual) When the pizza got here went back again to let her know and she invited me in to wash her back. So went ahead stripped down right quick washed her back then got out dried off and served the kids dinner.

So I have to say I think yesterday was my best day so far. I didn't engage when I was in emotional places even if she tried to engage me. I showed confidence and dominance without being controlling and her reactions responded to them.

Oh on the ride home I brought up the idea of cohabitation. Didn't get into the details told her there would obviously be details for us to handle but it is something to think about. As in not try to rush a decicion and force an answer but bring it up and make her curious about it. She was defnitley intrigued by my idea. Obviously it wouldn't come into play for a while and I know some people are going to be like WTF at that comment.

1. I love my kids and I do not want them in a broken home, I would much rather both parents be there for them at all times even if the parents themselfs are only together as friends in the same house.

2. I would only go through with it if there were firm ground rules in place. Which I can lay out some major ones.

a. If either parent wants out they are the one who goes. If either parent wants to date they are the one who goes.
b. Finances are completley seprate with both parents splitting bills in half otherwise your money is your money my money is my money and I have no say what so ever in what you spend your money on as long as your bills are paid. Groceries count as bills but special food items come from your pocket.
c. all decicions regarding the children are to made jointly as is all discipline.
d. Chores will be split unless it is a personal chore, i.e. your personal laundry.

3. Another reason why I like this idea is it gives me what I need to part ways as friends.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

So a list of things that are on the table as I realize now there are a few,

1. The rules of the seperation. We haven't discussed this yet because she is still coming off the fence and I told her I am not discussing it until she is off the fence whichever way she may come off.

2. My needs if we are to remain friends after divorce (if divorce happens) and her needs if we are to remain friends after a divorce.

3. My/her needs if we are to stay married.

4. Possible co-habiation down the road pending numbers 1 and 2.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Ok MC was yesterday. First let me say we both had a laugh at the MC yesterday after the event, I think it was a tactict but she kept on saying stuff like she didn't understand and wife and we just kept looking at each other seeing if we actualy understood each other because the councilor was obviously not getting it. 

Wife says some of this has changed but this is why she felt divorce.
My Replies will be after that.

He's way to jealous, overprotective, bossy, has to be told to do something that I've told him to do several times. Controlling with the money and me, He gets upset if I spend money without his permission first or questions me about something I've spent money on, though he does the same thing but never explains what he is buying and why. Tells me who I can and can't go out with, says its for my protection because I am too naieve to take care of myself. When I do go out I have to ask permission from him to hang out with my friends so as to not cause "problems" I have to introduce him to all of my friends before I can go out with them even if I'm only going out for a few hours.

My response to item one. I am not a jealous person naturaly this has been a result of always feeling like someone else was more important to you. Overprotective I own I am and is something I am working on, bossy I never mean to come off as bossy but I have told her several times I know I get a bossy "superior" tone call me out when I do it s I can stop. I honestly don't realize when I get that tone and can't stop it if I don't know it. Being told several times is utter crap because she never actualy directly says something. She put me in charge of the finances in order to run finances I have to know what money is being spent on. She didn't want to handle finances and anytime i have quit "controlling" the money she has dug us in some pretty deep holes. If she wanted to know what I spent money on I would tell her and the why (mind you most of it is still stuff for her) Yes I have told her who she can't go out with. I am sorry I do not want her to go out drinking with the person known to get DUI's. The times I have said no to a particular friend are very few. But she is a mother and wife. Yes Ihave insuated on many occasions that she is to naieve to take care of herself. But well she is she thinks the best of everyone and doesn't think single men that want to be her friends might have ulterior motives. yes I want to meet her friends, I don't want to steal them or be my friends I just want to know they respect the fact she is a mother and wife quite a few don't.

I feel that he doesn't listen to me or consider my feelings at times because I have to repeat myself or have the same argument and try to explain in a different way the exact same thing I said the day before.

I feel much the same way if not more so. The reason why we have the same arguments is because she never handles the conflict.

Tries to guilt trip me into things I don't want to do by saying that I am hurting someone I love (usualy the kids) plaguing on the fact that I avoid conflict.

I have never tried to guilt trip her. It is a fact she avoids conflict. She ahs admitted it herself many times. It is also a fact until recently she was hurting the kids and me. If she feels guilt over that it is her own fault. (last line was not said to her)

Sex comment is being skipped because that I believe is just more indictive of our predicatament lets just say I am the agressor and she is the avoider.

He's nosy, looks through my things whether he feels justified or not.

I have only done this recently yes on a couple of occascions but I would of never known other wise. I was not being nosy it was the fact I knew I was being lied to and she was being secretive. Before said recent incident she was an open book and never cared if I went into her things often times asking me to (email accounts and such) She does not understand the difference between secrecy and privacy (not said yesterday but has been said before)

I've felt like I have to be a different perso at home, afraid to be myself up until recently even then I change into a different person when I step outside work or when I get on the phone. Need to hide my feelings as to not give off any impression not intended... its reflex now, I have friends who commented on it and that's the only reason I know I do this.

This has been my biggest complaint with her for years during her unhappy times. I have constantly said you treat me differently then you treat other friend, to which her response always was thats because your my husband and I love you.(part left unsaid) To say she never notice it comes off as hollow and makes me wonder what else her "friends" have told her. I think combined with the first one this is the root of the problem. 

She also listed some positives
1) Good with the kids
2) Is considerate of my need to not stay cooped up in the house and sugests going out often
3) Values family time
4) Encourages me to go to college even though I have felt I haven't had the time to do this.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

So giving all that Jelly I would like to write my need list in a similar manner as I really got how she did this so maybe she will get it if I do the same

Reasons I Agree with Divorce

She avoids conflict. Anytime we have a problem in our relationship she shuts down and pretends it isn't there instead of handling it there so we can move forward.

She must always feel like the victim. Anytime she feels stress or something goes wrong in her life she has to find something to point at and say its this persons fault.

She has expressed no care or concern for my feelings or needs. She often puts the needs of her friends above the needs of her family. She has tried in the relationship but has never truley listened or respected my needs.

She is to focused on who she could of been instead of who she can be. 

She is more worried about what her friends think of her then what her loved ones think of her or more importantly what she thinks of herself.

She broke her promise of always coming to me with her problems with me especialy before going to someone else.

She is fiscaly unresponsible. Anytime I have not closley monitored the money she has dug us into a hole.

She continously emotionaly blackmails me by asking me to do something such as control the finances then when I do that thing says I am controlling her.
and to end with positives
1) she has made me a better person
2) she has dreams
3) usualy she tries to see the positive in a situation
4) she is a giving person to people in need


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

My actual needs

I need to feel respected. That means putting my needs before others obviously minus one's self, valuing my opinion and being the primary go to person but not the only person.

I need someone who when they get off work "comes home" Doesnt come into the house and sit on facebook all night talking to the people she just spent the day with that she says is the reason for all her stress.

I need someone who is going to be honest with me even if it hurts me. I realize at times I can be overbearing, bossy, or egotistical what I need is someone to tell me that I am being such so I can knock off the bull****.

I need someone who knows how to find happiness in other peoples happiness and who is a happy person in general.

I need someone who is committed to myself and my children.

I


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Oh wanted to add the weekend plans. Tonight is camping night. As right now we have a no touching policy in the bed (for both of us) we are goign to stay up late out in the living room watching movies playing video games and camp out there after the kids go to bed. Not a guarentee anything will happen but it is out of the bedroom where something "can" happen and yes I do intend to try but nt force. 

Saturday not much planned will probaly just spend some time together. Sunday weather permitting we are going to the beach though she doesn't know it yet. I am just going to wake up start getting the kids ready and when she asks say oh sorry forgot to tell you I am taking the kids to the beach would you like to come. She loves the beach so its a sure fire plan but I don't want myself going being dependant on her wanting to go I am going to take charge and show some of that sexy inititive she fell in love with instead of this daddy inititive.


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## jeffsmith77 (Mar 19, 2011)

Niceguy13 said:


> Reasons I Agree with Divorce
> 
> She avoids conflict. Anytime we have a problem in our relationship she shuts down and pretends it isn't there instead of handling it there so we can move forward.


If I could make a recommendation: try not to use "She" or "You". By saying "She avoids conflict" the tone may seem confrontational (the same can be said if you tell her "You avoid conflict"). This might put her on the defensive. I would say "I feel that she avoids conflict."


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

She has openly said time and time again though that she avoids conflict its nothing that its jsut me that I feel


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Update from my weekend. Well the camping in the living room was a semi bust as were my sunday plans. Apparently she had a lot more plans for our living room camping then I did as she wanted to drink some wine and get frisky, she has said next weekend as she really wanted to have fun and with the pager she was worried she wouldn't be able to. Huzzah for me. Pager also kept us from going to the beach as the good beaches are to far away from the base and she would of had to come back in if she got paged.

So Friday we rented a few movies. Rented one family movie and two "date" movies. So watched one of them friday with some flirty touches but nothing ever to much are with the intent of it leading somewhere right then and there. Played lots of video games with her over the weekend as well.

Was overall a pretty amazing weekend kinda had that feeling like we had just started dating. Like that is how she was viewing me.
Defnitley seems like she is asking me to just be, not overwhelm her, and be more at ease. She ahs taken steps to put me more at ease as well. 

On a side note Sunday night she waited till I was at my laptop to clean her facebook. It was refreshing she wanted me to know she did that even if it isn't clean to the point of where I want it (facebook for me is for family and a few gaming friends) but it was a deliberate act she wanted me to see because she knows how I feel about facebook.

She talked to her mom sunday evening as well on facebook. No idea what was said but this morning she was pretty chipper with me. In fact she has been getting more and more chipper with me everyday.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Well had an anger conversation yesterday when she got off work. Before it al started I let her know I was angry. Then told her the reasons why I was angry. It wasn't much just stuff that had been nagging on my mind we talked for about an hour just talked no fighting or yelling I accepted what she said and that was that.

Interesting info did come from the conversation, she still "wants" a divorce but she is giving me an honest chance. From reading the forums here and looking at the ladies clubhouse seems like the majority of women who say that don't really want the divorce they are just prepared for one if nothing changes. I have been committed to my changes so I am hoping its a non issue. She has finaly admitted to the fact that she as spending more energy on everyone else then herself and her own personal relationship and she is sorry for it. But she also said even though she is the one who neglected in that regard so much "love' has been lost that she has to rebuild it. I don't nessicarly agree but I realize I can't invalidate that feeling she has otherwise I am forcing her. 

Counciling session is today. Lets hope the councilor acts smarter today then she did last session as I think it has helped us quite a bit. *shrug* if not then today will be our last trip which would be a shame because it feels like we are getting somewhere. If we do continue counciling thinking about a biweekly thing.


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## rebootingnow (May 3, 2011)

It sounds like you are progressing. Keep pluggin' away!

My wife and I tried MC a bunch of years ago. I think the biggest mistake was after 6-12 times we felt the MC wasn't really helping and it was US against the MC. I told my wife this time we can't give up until well after we feel we don't need it. Marriage/Relationships are work and if you're spending 99.99% not working on them... TAM.com.



Niceguy13 said:


> ...Interesting info did come from the conversation, she still "wants" a divorce but she is giving me an honest chance. From reading the forums here and looking at the ladies clubhouse seems like the majority of women who say that don't really want the divorce they are just prepared for one if nothing changes...


Hmmmm.... I'm going to have to investigate this. This is interesting to know.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Ladies club house has given me lots of insight to if its not about the affair what is it about. She has given my lots of reasons to believe it wasn't about the EA she had and the EA was just an unfortunate event that happened because of all our other issues. obviously it was a very very painful thing etc I just mean as she never meant to put herself in that situation thought she was immune to it etc ad nauseum.

So reading threads about women who are no longer in love with their husbands has given me lots of insight.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Nice, I am sorry I have been out of touch w/ you...

Your needs list is fine. Definitely take it to your next counselling session. Don't sound accusatory. You could say something like:

"I want to feel respected. When you do X and ask my opinion, that makes me feel respected." or

"I want you to be honest with me, even if it hurts. When you are honest with me and truthful, it lets me know you are showing me what is what and it opens my eyes to how I am."

You have to say it like that and not "I need you to respect me woman cause ya makin me feel like a chump" LOL

I hope you are doing well. Sounds like you guys were flirty when you had your camping weekend.

When is the next MC session?

And I also agree w/ you about people finding happiness w/ themselves & others' happiness. This was always a major diff me and my ex had. He seemed to always be unhappy and didn't delight in others' happiness...almost like everything was a competition for him.

Re: women having affairs... women generally cheat when their emotional needs aren't being met. Now that is not everyone but its the most common reason (and it does not excuse it). I myself had one and during the time I did, my ex and I were barely speaking. I felt like he was not there for me emotionally or as support.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Well the camping session got delayed to this weekend but we still spent the weekend together and I dont mean in the same house mean spending time together. Everything has been moved to this weekend which is fine by me as she wants to drink to "loosen" up.

Yeah I get I didn't meet her needs I just don't get why the lies about not meeting her needs for three years then being solid on divorce but then again after looking at ladies clubhouse her actions sound like the women who want to stay married but need a change in their marriage even if the problems were originaly created by them they need the man to instigate the change so to say. I am fine with that. Now that I have more an idea of what I was doing wrong I can fix it. Some of it is stuff she enver directly said but after changing me she has responded to it and some of it is directly related to what she said and some of it I am not going to change and she can learn that thats part of life or honestly better off without her.

In example her being stuck on what she could of been instead of what she can be. I know some people might read that wrong I am sure your not one of them Jellybeans so let me clarify that for people that have been reading my story. We got married young alot of what she seems to be feeling stems from the fact she "missed" her 20's that she skipped that part of her life. I can not make her to come to grips with that I "matured" early and my party days were done when I met her she never got her party days. What she isn't seeing is that ultimatley after her party days she would be right where she is now. She ahs a husband that cares and loves for her and though he has on occasion been emotionaly neglectful he has never with intention tried to harm her, her parents fully approve of me, and I defnitley want to be their for my children. All in all the women who have lived their party days know I am a catch because they have the expierence to back it up she doesn't and still thinks "what if" Granted her being the only married woman with children in her position and age category at work doesn't help as she has no one physicaly present to reinforce that concept instead she has young 20 somethings who are just entering their party phase.

I plan on doing both lists the first to validate her feelings and at the same time express what I feel is wrong with the marriage maybe an item or two will be left off the needs list is meant more as a pick me up (her) because I know she is fully capable of meeting all of my needs.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Sorry to hear she didn't come at you directly w/ what the problems she had on her mind were. But all you can do is deal with the here and now... 

That was not my experience. I had been asking my H for MONTHS to go to MC with me and he would not and would dismiss it, not discuss it, say there was nothing to resolve. I tried so hard.

She may feel she missed the party phase but she will have a cold hard wake up call if she decides to go through with the D and realizes the party phase...isn't what it's cracked up to be.

Stay strong.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Thanks for the support JB. Last night I broke down due to my own eprsonal demons I tried to not let her see it as I knew she would think I was breaking down because of just her. It was to late though. I know the nothing to resolve feeling. I give her credit she is giving me a chance but it feels like that chance is only coming from half her heart so to speak. She still hasn't moved forward on any of the things she said she would move forward on (seperation paperwork, a new flier to get rid of the cats, the paperwork to get me and the kids back to the states, etc and so forth.)


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Well weekend went well if not great. Flirty touching has really picked up a lot of instigated by her and she isn't recoiling from my touch. She has admitted she is aware I might not be "gone" according to her schedule. If I am not gone by then we have actualy planned a mini vacation. 

The camping night went ok. We ended up not staying out in the living room she had reservations about her original plan. But I cranked the AC in the bedroom (I have always liked to sleep when its cold she is a warm sleeper I use to keep it warm for her) which had the side benifit of her scooting closer and closer and then realize she was snuggled against me and scooting back away. I know cruel in some ways but why should the sleeping temperture still be conformed around comfie for her, afterall you can always put more clothes on but you can only take so many off.

It rained on Sunday so no beach. Well it was cloudy and by the time we got to the beach it said yup I am going to rain today instead of passing overhead. Thats fine though as we made some more plans based off of it.

Well that is about it. Things are still moving in a positive direction. i still am not a "married" man again but I am defnitley not an about to be divorced man. Still don't know which way she is going to fall but I have reached over the divorce fence grabbed her and brought her back to the married side. Now if I could just convince her its safe to put her damn feet down on the ground and let go of the fence.

On a side note we are done with the councilor, still think we need councilling but this councillor has really become counter productive to both of our needs so we have decided to "break-up" with her. She took my needs list pretty seriously as well as the reasons I agree with divorce list. Well thats about it for now hope you all enjoy will post any more updates I get or when I am having a rough day but I feel pretty good today was a great weekend all things considered.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Well huge slip of the tongue last night by her. I was messing around with hulu and to watch all of no ordinary family I would need hulu plus so she starts asking how much is it. I check its pretty dirt cheap and I tell her the price. Now here is where the slip happens. We should get it after all we still have a long time here.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

OK I am not sure what to make of all this besides women are bat **** ****ing crazy. No offense ladies. The more I pretend like we are just having a spat (i.e. ignore the fact that I know she "wants a divorce") the more she acts like we are just having a spat. I mean seriously women do you really know what in the hell it is you want or do you all live in what happened five minute ago land.

So had an absest tooth obviously two ights ago I got like zero sleep. Take her to work take kid to school go to dental. Come back later for my partial root canal. Happens to be near the time boy needs to be picked up. She takes girl to pick up boy. Then has to spend like 30 minutes with them both while I get finished. Thirty minutes of having both kids and she is "done" gets snappy with me and starts taking it out on me. Which I calmly and politely remind her I do this everyday and don't take it out on her, that I dont mind she is frustrated but its not right to transfer that frustration to me. 

Come home she sits on the love seat ends up passing out. I missed my canuks game so after doing some stuff I lift up her legs and sit on the couch. Having gotton no sleep end up passing out with her for a period of hockey. Then cook dinner set up season finale of glee for her wrestle some and watch some more no ordinary family.

Seriously WTF yes I want to stay married but is it really as simple as just not bringing up you might be divorcing me? Do all I really have to do is improve myself and pretend she didn't say the d-word? It shouldn't be that easy but her actions have been saying just that.

On a side note less then 30 days away until supposed go back to the states day. Second draft of seperation paperwork is still not here (this makes it about 30 days and we got our first draft after three days) She has still not set up new bank account, found a home for the cats, set up an allotment, um really done anything to get me and the kids back to the states. Considering some of it is goverment paperwork there really isn't much chance in hell that I will be gone within the next month if even the next two months. 

Well one day at a time anyways but recently each day has been better then the last in regards to reconcilliation.


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## jeffsmith77 (Mar 19, 2011)

Each update seems a little more promising. It could be she doesn't want to talk about the divorce because either she's avoiding the problem, or it could be out of embarrassment or guilt that she even mentioned it.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Her actions when she isn't reminding herself she doesn't love me say she loves me. She has to make a concious effort now that her outside stress has gone down to not love me and anyone can see her do it. I do think their is a guilt shame component in it. One of her biggest flaws 9in her opinion) is saying something then not sticking to it. Now she it feels like she is sticking to her decicion made in a flash even though she doesn't think it is the right decicion anymore. Of course I can't point any of this out to her.....head..wall..head..wall..head..wall ok i feel better. It is just so damn frustrating at times. Everyday though I get more and more right by myself and need her less and less which is a good thing. I think she is getting there as well well soemthing similar that yes she can do things by herself but she doesn't have to. We shall see what the cards hold though.


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## jeffsmith77 (Mar 19, 2011)

In my experience, and I know I'm not 100% correct, is that women tend to think with their hearts while men tend to think with their minds. One way is certainly not better than the other. But right now, your wife's heart is telling her she's not entirely happy in the moment. But it seems to me that you're looking ahead, and what you both may be feeling in the future. I think this is why my fiance left: she was so caught up with the stresses of her life at the moment, that it made it difficult for her to feel love. On the other hand, I was looking at how we'd feel when life calmed down and we whether the storm.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

What is the plan here, Nice?

Are you guy sultimately separating/divorcing?

If so, playing husband and wife is only going to prlong the agony. She can't have it both ways. Let her know that.

If the plan is to get back together and you're both on the same page, you need to tell her that you are still feeling hurt from her throwing the D word around. It hurts. It's a big loud heavy word that makes you feel you've lost your sense of security with someone.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Haha complicated answer, lets see whats my plan or whats her plan? My plan is to show her I am still the man she loves which cold and distant won't work for because well that isn't the man she loves, neither is an insecure needy man. So I my plan is just to be the man I should be regardless of her which is having a very drastic effect on her. It wasn't so much the d-word that her it was all these "problems" that supposivley have been around for years that I have been "begging" to hear that she never told that led to the divorce that hurt.

Her plan and her actions are what don't match up. It has gone from I can't wait to get a divorce to I don't know when we will get a divorce to really just seperation talk but no action taken really for seperation for a while. I think her plan right now (as I am being that better man) is "mess up" the paperwork so I don't leave. I can't really push her on what her plan is because I actualy have been to pushy in the past. I can live with her trying to save face for now. Its much more important to fix us then worry about small slights. Obviously all this d-talk still needs to be handled if we stay together but for now I am just concentrating on bettering myself looking out for my kids and yes on saving my marriage. 

As for letting her have it both ways I agree. I have told her if we were back stateside things would be going a lot differently, us being in a foriegn country and the fact that if I do go back stateside early means certain things for my children has complicated matters out of their sake. If I was back stateside I would of honestly just taken a vacation by myself to my home and let her deal with everything I deal with for two weeks then see how she feels. She knows if she sends me back with out recommiting to the marriage their is a strong possibility that when she gets back some other woman will have been filling in the mom role for x months because I am not going to "wait" around.

And just for the record I am only giving her love and affection when she is being positive torwards me when she is negative (which has been very latley since starting this method) I put her on /ignore after telling her why she is being put on /ignore.

So her verbal plan compared to her actions don't match up her veral plan is I want to be single her actions (including changing the habits I have issues with, and working on fulfilling my needs) say she wants to be married to ME. Every day is a new day though shall keep fighting it one day at a time and continue to be the man I ought to be.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Well I jynxed myself, legalfinaly called with the seperation paperwork. Damn it all but she is saying it is just so she can do the ERD paperwork now. She is starting to realize she is going to be missing out on the kids's life. daughter turns five and boy turns 7 soon and she just realized she won't be there for their b-days. Those are going to be some very hard days for me as I cope with the kids wondering why mommy isn't at their b-day party. 

As always shall see what the next day brings and the day after that. Keeping my head up and trying to stay realisticly optimistic. As in I am trying to see the good in everything without reading to much into any one thing


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I realize you need to be optimistic...you're hoping something is going to change, that she will have an A-ha! moment, that she'll tell you how ridiculous she has been with all this separtion/D talk.

But you need to seriously sit down and talk to her. It swounds like you're confused, both of you. Either you stay together or you don't. Yes, it is really as simple as that. It's clear you WANT your marriage but does she???

If you have filed paperwork or it's already been filed, work from that angle. You guys doing this back and forth isn't going to get you anywhere. You can't keep in this limbo forever. 

As for you saying another woman will take her place in X monthsh--I'd caution you not to threaten her with that or to think that way. Divorce is very traumatic. You need to put your kids firset and then you and figure out your marriage before getting yourself involved with someone else. Finding someone to fill the"mommy role" without dealing with all of the other very important things isn't the answer and will create more problems than the ones you already have. 

At present timei you've been saingn you want your marriage so another woman fulfilling the "mommy role" shouldn't even be on your mind.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Limo lasts till late June early July if the paperwork goes fast. That is just for me going back to the states. Divorce if it goes that route is 18 months out due to legal complications and that is in the least. I am not so much thinking that way I don't have this grand plan to go out and hit the market right away if worse came to worse. More of a just I won't wait and be your plan B though when having it reflected back at me in the way I worded it I can see it was not a prime choice of words.

She has been honest with me on where she is at or at least I believe honest. but I don't want to leave here go back stateside and still be in limbo land. If I leave here and she is still undecided I don't want her to have the expectation that I am going to just raise our kids and hope mommy decides to come home. I can handle waiting for the aha moment in the same house but an ocean away for 18 months nope not going to happen (18 months is the short projection and even then she may still not be living near the kids. If she finishes up her career our oldest will be almost done with high school by the time she can come back to home state for good) Right now we are slowly just handling issues trying to tackle them one at a time. It feels we are making progress and I have seen signs that the EA fog is finaly starting to lift. The EA has been over for a while but its taking her a while to stumble clear from the haze.

So confused yes I am but I am confused by her words versus her actions because she seems very confused and overwhelming her or telling her how I think she feels or how it appears to me that she feels or however to word that really isn't going to help the matter. 

Tommorrow we were going to talk some probaly set an egg timer for an hour or two and deal with "heavy" stuff. Especialy as she finaly talked about how she is going to be missing time with the kids so she opened the door for that angle. 

As for filed paperwork its all a pretty straight forward seperation agreement. I get custody of kids can not move them out of home state without her permission maternal grandparents get reasonable visitation, spousal support for myself (been a Mr Mom for 7 years) along with child support for our two children. Not really an angle to attack from there and D paperwork unless I file is a long way off and yeah right now I am not of the mind to file.

As for filling the "mommy" role have no intrest what-so-ever of finding a new mommy for my children. I know it can't be avoided as a couple moves on sepratley but I want my children to only know one mommy 

I guess more then anything I am frustrated now. Not angry anymore (still have my moments) not depressed (still have those moments as well) just wishing a real reconcilliation wasn't so damn hard because one party is being so damn stubborn. I know its the nature of the beast luckily this whole journal of mine here at TAM has really helped with me not being overwhelemed with the frustration.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I wouldn't wait around for someone to make up their mind about whether they want to be with me either. That is ridiculous.

Have a firm talk with her today. Tell her you're committed dto the marriage and reswtoring it WITH her help. If she can't give you 100% committment, then you're moving on with your life. 

Kapiche. End the waiting game.

If someone WANTS to be with you, they will be.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> I wouldn't wait around for someone to make up their mind about whether they want to be with me either. That is ridiculous.
> 
> Have a firm talk with her today. Tell her you're committed dto the marriage and reswtoring it WITH her help. If she can't give you 100% committment, then you're moving on with your life.
> 
> ...


This is what my H has said to me too and being on the receiving end, this is definitely good advice. He did add that I wasn't backed into a corner, there's breathing room for discussion but we need to work out what we both want. I know being in limbo time is over. This is all very hard. All the best to you Niceguy.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> I wouldn't wait around for someone to make up their mind about whether they want to be with me either. That is ridiculous.
> 
> Have a firm talk with her today. Tell her you're committed dto the marriage and reswtoring it WITH her help. If she can't give you 100% committment, then you're moving on with your life.
> 
> ...


Haha I have been to the best of my ability whilst dealing with the ramifications for my children. like I said if I was back in the states this would all be a lot easier. Being where I am geographicaly and what this will mean for my kids, I am trying to ensure them as much mom time as possible while me and her deal with us. Things day by day are getting better but again due to where I am at geographicaly I have a limited time table. I can't really just do the whole no contact well limited contact because of the kids for 6 months or however long is needed. If I force her out of the living area now then that is just an extra couple months the kids won't have their mother and I refuse to punish my kids or use them as an emotional weapon. They are innocent in this all and deserve as much mom time now as possible before possibly not getting any good mom time till they are graduating high school.

So have been doing talks in bites. She knows unless she is 100% committed I will be walking away when I go back to the states and she is giving us a chance right now. the chance through actions seem genuine but quite honestly I am lacking in trust of her right now. i have to start trusting her though if there is going to be any chance of reconciliation. Not saying I am putting all my eggs in that basket yet but ach day she is moving cloer and closer to "home" so there is hope. I do status update conversations every once in a while just to see where we are at. We has reentered her vocabulary recently and like I said though she says she still wants a divorce alot of ehr actions of late have said what she really wants is different then what she is verbaly expressing. I just wish she would confide in someone like her parents, you know someone who might tell her the hard truth if they knew everything instead of someone who isn't.


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Been nearly a month since I updated. What can I say when things start going good in context you don't need daily treatment anymore . Still not divorced still not married still somewhere in limbo and still overseas defnitley looking mid to late July now at the earliest no complaints though. So how are things going better you might ask. Well she has officialy gone from wanting a divorce to "I don't know what I want." I know may not seem like much but her actions have been entirley what can I do to repair our relationship.

In the bedroom still no passionate love making not there yet, but at night time she started with foot snuggles (you know moving her leg over to where it is touching mine) To the past two nights in the middle of the night when I roll away from her (not intentionaly but if I can't cuddle (which as of the moment we are not cuddling in bed it is a "safe" zone I toss and turn and no pillows don't help its not the same thing) she has rolled to face my back and put her hand in the center of my back rubbing it. Last night I decided to see how aware it was and moved away slightly and moved slightly away after she did it sure enough she readjusted to where she could touch me again and resumed rubbing. (rubbing is probaly the wrong word it is just one of those slow thumb movements)

In normal life she is being very considerate to the needs of the family while still taking care of her needs. Its been months since she tried a no win situation. Now she either says she is going to do something or if it is something she is open to compromise with she will honestly ask. For example tomorrow her friend just got back from Vacay and she told me she was inviting her her over. Not is it ok if she comes over. 

Which I guess brings me to the really good news. She is starting to trust me again and be open with me. She is defnitley trusting me in my ability to get over little things. As in above example I am not really happy her friend willl be coming over tomorrow but really its not that big of a deal and I will get over it. So its a good thing it has allowed us to move really far from where we were. Like I said still not all the way there but I admitted way back in the beginning I didn't want the quick easy fix and am willing to take the long slow painful road. Have about a year and a half over three years worth of issues to deal with a few months isn't going to magicaly erase it all.

I have begun writing her every work day. Yes they contain my feelings but the only emotions I ever show in them are positive ones. Only had one start to get angry and stopped it but still gave it to her. They are helping a lot to keep me from overtalking her and managing my levels so I don't get to angry bitter whatever. She reads them every morning and has made a few comments upon them. She says I am being realisticaly hopeful in them in regards to me and her.

Yesterday the daughter in her sweet almost five year old self started talking about how she wants mommy and daddy together like in the picture (family picture) Wife was sitting out there and did my normal explanation of things. Wife smiled warmly at the fact I said mommy and daddy are trying to be better people and when we finish becoming better people we are going to reasses. 

Really think that is where we are at. I don't think she will openly admit it yet but from all her actions it really seems she now wants to stay completley married take some time for the two of us to work on ourselfs while slowly rebuilding our relationship send me to the states come back to the states herself a year later and see where we are.


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## jeffsmith77 (Mar 19, 2011)

I'm happy to hear that things are still slowly improving. Appreciate the update, and I hope this trend continues for you!


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## brighterlight (Aug 13, 2009)

:smthumbup:


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## LonelyNLost (Dec 11, 2010)

Hadn't been around much here on TAM lately myself, but wanted to see how things were going with you. Hope they are still looking up! Limbo sucks, that's for sure. I hate that my marriage is over, but at least I'm out of limbo and I'm happier than I've been in a long while. Hang in there, stay strong!


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

well there were fireworks on the fourth. She called her parents and wants to move forward on divorce again (apparently even her parents are confused on it). I am hurt by it all but handling it alot better this time, because I know I have been doing everything I can and well **** it. I am sad this time but its not desperate or heart wrenching, the fireworks were over.....facebook....God how I hate that thing, yes I use it myself but not to connect with the world just with people that matter. I am being resolute this time no more backpedaling like I did in the past she isn't going to scare me with D talk if it was just an emotional outburst to her parents and its serious. Thank you everyone for telling me not to put to much hope or read to far into things it allowed me to try to restore my marriage with a level head and be prepared for failure. Again not sure it will go there could just be an emotional temper tantrum because she is still torn well hell either way its an emotional temper tantrum and yes I want to be with her but I will not let her anticts phase me and if that is what she wants in her life I will keep moving forward.


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## hesnothappy (Mar 5, 2011)

Glad it is not affecting you the same way this time. Go be single and wonderful. I am learning it is not so bad after all ;o)


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## LonelyNLost (Dec 11, 2010)

Sorry to hear! I'm going to PM you. Hang in there!


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I wondered how you were doing. Sounds like you're in a more balanced place with it all.


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## LonelyNLost (Dec 11, 2010)

Anything new here? Just looking for an update and checking in on you!


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