# Emotion affair pre-marriage



## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

My now-husband had an emotional affair with the "friend" that introduced us. By emotional affair, I mean they were both aware of at least his romantic feelings and flirted, both in front of me playing it off as a joke and privately. I know this sounds like I'm an idiot but I was 20 years old and, well, an idiot. While it made me uncomfortable, I honestly didn't believe there was ever anything romantic between them. We spent a lot of time doubling with her then-boyfriend who laughed it off like I did. This continued on for over a year while our relationship progressed into fault serious territory. Shortly after we moved in together, we had a falling out with the "friend" for reasons that I won't go into. She really was just an awful person. Shortly after that, I found out about the secret romance, but not from him. A mutual friend of mine and the "friend" told me after the "friend" basically bragged about it. I was (what I now know was) understandably upset, but made to feel like I was overreacting because "nothing ever happened". Truly, I am not typically this foolish. If I were advising a friend in this situation, I would've told her to vamp. I didn't though. I was able to bury it somehow and now, almost 10 years later, we're married with two kids. I've often thought about the whole thing (wondered if it was really just emotional or what would happen if we saw her again), but I try not to bring it up, if avoidable. He's well aware of my feelings about it and her. It's worth noting that besides this incident and being agreeable to a fault, my husband is pretty much the greatest guy in the world. 
Ok, so 10 years down the road we're out late with the kids, exhausted from working so he runs in to a restaurant to grab all of us dinner to go. Inside, he runs into our old "friend", hugs her, and then allows her to come out to the truck to say hello and meet the kids. I was dumbfounded. It took all my might to restrain myself while she made an audible note of how awkward it was and the two of them made faces at each other like I was the one making it awkward. She left without incident while I just sat quietly fuming and hurt and nauseated. We've talked, weighed the idea of separating, agreed to begin counseling, etc.
My concern now is because I'm not feeling very optimistic about our relationship. His willingness to make me uncomfortable to prevent her from being uncomfortable is a pretty profound statement of his feelings for me. I think about it constantly and I can't turn it off. I don't want to leave him but I don't want to feel this way worse. I'm mad at myself for creating this situation by not addressing it years ago. I feel like the entire foundation of our relationship is a lie. I have no idea how to fix this or if I even want to. Help!


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Hey OP - so you both were 20 years old and he had a crush when he started dating you? What makes this an affair exactly? Being 20 he's probably had many fleeting crushes when he was younger. 20 year olds are flighty by nature and new relationships are never serious until they are. But at some point he got serious about you, married you and had two kids, sounds like a great guy and you've never caught him cheating otherwise. So he ran into her and was cordial? 

Don't mean to dismiss your trigger but perhaps you're overreacting a bit?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Your H should not have brought out the OW as he understands there is an relationship issue from years ago. Disrespectful in my eyes.


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## bluelily (Jul 10, 2018)

GHaynes said:


> Shortly after that, I found out about the secret romance, but not from him. A mutual friend of mine and the "friend" told me after the "friend" basically bragged about it. I was (what I now know was) understandably upset, but made to feel like I was overreacting because "nothing ever happened".





GHaynes said:


> Shortly after that, I found out about the secret romance, but not from him. A mutual friend of mine and the "friend" told me after the "friend" basically bragged about it. I was (what I now know was) understandably upset, but made to feel like I was overreacting because "nothing ever happened".


Bloody hell, this is bad. He basically gaslighted you from the start and she had no shame that she bragged about it. Explain to him what EA is and what he had done with her before and how it was unacceptable and disrespectful his action was for you. Is there any way to verify that nothing physical happened in the past ?

I hope I have good words for you OP, but I don't. My H was few steps back from your H's EA seriousness level and I left him for a while, we have no kids though so it's easier. Still in R but we've had bad bumps in the past days


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## bluelily (Jul 10, 2018)

*dp


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## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

I respectfully disagree. If you have to hide it, it's an affair. We were all in the living room of the home we had newly moved in to together while they jokingly kissed. They shared a private connection that simultaneously mocked me to my face. It was beyond a crush. That part I got over (or thought I had). Bringing her out knowing it would make me uncomfortable is not being cordial, not that she deserved even that. He had two choices of people to make uncomfortable and he chose his wife.

Or even if I am overreacting, you're not answering my question. How do I turn these thoughts off? How do I feel ok with that?


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## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

That's where I get really uncomfortable. It was common knowledge to the both of them, yet he doesn't remember what happened between them because it was nothing. All he knows is that it wasn't ever physical. She wasn't single for any of this either and he'd just recently been horribly betrayed by his highschool sweetheart and best friend. It stunned me that he was even capable of that kind of deceit. It still does. I can't reconcile this person with the man I married. I could contact her but I really don't want to. The "falling out" we had was because she cheated on her boyfriend with a woman but used us to do it and then made us out to be horribly homophobes to the girlfriend to explain why we couldn't all hang out together. The girl is evil.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

GHaynes said:


> I don't want to leave him but I don't want to feel this way worse.


Well, I'm sure you don't "want" to but you need to be "willing" to if he refuses to end the relationship. Tell him you can't control what he does, but you can control what you will accept from him. And you can no longer accept this continuing relationship with this "friend". 

Contacting her would be a mistake. You'd be all but admitting to her, that your husband won't end it on his own. That may very well embolden her, but even if it doesn't it's makes you appear weak and desperate. He's your husband and he's the one that needs to handle this.

Divorce is ultimately the only weapon in your arsenal. If he does not have an emotional tie to her like he claims, if he truly loves you and and if he cares about his marriage; you will make him understand and he'll end it.

I had to have the "I want accept it" conversation several years ago with my WW, when she was hanging on to a toxic friend (that knew about her A and didn't tell me). That was after my complaining about it got me no where.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

At this point, I would choose to believe that HE is Mine period. Maybe he wanted to show off his wife and daughters.

Living room incident was ten years ago? Hard to separate then and now and what has happened in between.

He is foolish to not be aware of your feelings. BUT why even hug her? Have you asked how often he has seen her recently? Hope you both see her as toxic. Don't upset a happy marriage--you do not want to have her try to separate y'all if there is dissension. 

However, I would be extremely diligent and aware. Tighten the boundaries of your marriage. Would not contact her if I were you--that would likely be a wash--she is a liar and you don't want her to know the turmoil she can cause. Jealousy can be a mighty force; don't let it destroy a good thing.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

"*Or even if I am overreacting, you're not answering my question. How do I turn these thoughts off? How do I feel ok with that? *"

Time and determination can help you heal. Ask yourself how does my worry help 'fix' this situation. Marriage counseling would be good!! I think mandatory. Earlier issues were never resolved. Until then close your eyes and picture a stop sign and stop the troubling thought. You will get better with practice. DO NOT let her live rent free in your head!! 

What is your husband saying? You will never be ok with the place you now are, but he chose you and y'all are going to work on better communication, etc? RIGHT?


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

sunsetmist said:


> "*Or even if I am overreacting, you're not answering my question. How do I turn these thoughts off? How do I feel ok with that? *"
> 
> Time and determination can help you heal. *Ask yourself how does my worry help 'fix' this situation.* Marriage counseling would be good!! I think mandatory. Earlier issues were never resolved. Until then close your eyes and picture a stop sign and stop the troubling thought. You will get better with practice. DO NOT let her live rent free in your head!!
> 
> What is your husband saying? You will never be ok with the place you now are, but he chose you and y'all are going to work on better communication, etc? RIGHT?


You're right, worrying won't fix it, because she has a legitimate marital boundary issue she needs to resolve. Counseling won't fix it, time won't fix it, trying not to think about won't fix it, better communication won't fix it. What will fix it, is him ending contact. It's not that complicated.


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## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

He wants to fix it. I don't feel like this was really a communication fail. I may have not set firm boundaries but he knew exactly how I'd feel about it. He raced to the truck to warn me and apologize in advance before she could get there. They don't have an ongoing relationship that I can insist that he stop and I don't think he would ever start up anything with her now. I'm much more worried that she still takes priority over me. We haven't seen or heard from her in over 8 years and he still put her comfort level above mine? He's a very loyal guy. What if he's only with me out of loyalty? I don't want to be anyone's consolation prize.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

I'm sorry you experienced this - and I agree you have reason to still be angry as well as concerned about the present. It sounds like he cheated 10 years ago (and was never held accountable) and now he's possibly invited her back into his life and your marriage (which is thoughtless as well as disrespectful at a minimum). Unfortunately even though it was 10 years ago since he's now reconnected with her - both the past and present relationship needs to be discussed. This mess is entirely on him.... his past as well as his current behavior . 

If he's such a 'great' guy, he should have known better ...great guys don't humiliate their wife nor do they disrupt marital harmony by warmly greeting/welcoming their past cheat partner. I don't believe your husband does not remember. 

How did the discussion escalate to both of you agreeing to possibly separating? Did he apologize for upsetting you or offer to never contact or see her again? Why would he agree to separate ... does he recognize that he's currently interested in her or are there other issues? Can you provide more detail?


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Oh....my comment missed yours by 2 minutes. I see he anticipated that you would not want contact with her (and still allowed it to happen). His apology is not sincere because he could have stopped it. He could have avoided the entire ugly mess by manning up and telling the women to stay away from his family. Again...this mess is all on him. He should do what ever you need him to do to fix it.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

GHaynes said:


> They don't have an ongoing relationship that I can insist that he stop and I don't think he would ever start up anything with her now. I'm much more worried that she still takes priority over me.


If that's the case, he shouldn't have any problem with sending her no contact email, that you read and approve. You let him know that prioritizing her feelings over yours, hurt you very much and that you want a commitment from him that it won't happen again with her or anybody else. He can demonstrate that commitment by prioritizing your feelings this time; by him taking away any possibility of further contact. Accidental or otherwise.


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## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

That's how I feel about it. He didn't quite agree to separate. I wasn't asking him for a separation. I told him I was going to stay with my parents for a while. He refused to talk about the logistics of the whole thing but he couldn't just ban me from doing it either.


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## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

badmemory said:


> You're right, worrying won't fix it, because she has a legitimate marital boundary issue she needs to resolve. Counseling won't fix it, time won't fix it, trying not to think about won't fix it, better communication won't fix it. What will fix it, is him ending contact. It's not that complicated.


Counseling won't fix it? Why do you say that? They don't still have contact. This was a chance encounter. The issue was that he took it a step past being polite and put me in an uncomfortable position so as not to let her down. What happened way back when just got brought back up to the surface but I feel much more upset about the most recent encounter than the stuff that happened back then. It feels like he said her feelings are more important than mine. I'm very worried that counseling won't work because I wasn't who he wanted in the first place. Maybe I never have been?


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

I've been in the relationship with my wife for over 20 years. And married 13. If I ran into a old flame, let alone a tawdry affair type...I don't think I would march her out to the car and say "hey honey, look who I found.." 

Your husband is very tone deaf to say the least. I would love to hear his side of events and how he rationalized his behavior.....


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## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

BarbedFenceRider said:


> I've been in the relationship with my wife for over 20 years. And married 13. If I ran into a old flame, let alone a tawdry affair type...I don't think I would march her out to the car and say "hey honey, look who I found.."
> 
> Your husband is very tone deaf to say the least. I would love to hear his side of events and how he rationalized his behavior.....


He said he didn't want to be rude.

To be fair, coming out to the truck together wasn't his idea. She asked him if it would be ok and he said yes. He felt like saying no would be rude, I guess? He is a ridiculously agreeable guy, but he knew how I would feel about it.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

You said your husband was 'agreeable'. Sounds like a pleaser-type and just made a bad judgement call on the spot without the time to think it through. Didn't mean to dismiss your anger on that, and agree seems a less than thoughtful to your feelings. That said "don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity". Sometimes we humans make stupid mistakes.

You know your husband best and your history together. If he's a great man and a great husband and hasn't talked to her in 8 years...just seems like an over reaction to me. But again i understand how that could be a trigger...


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## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

BigDigg said:


> You said your husband was 'agreeable'. Sounds like a pleaser-type and just made a bad judgement call on the spot without the time to think it through. Didn't mean to dismiss your anger on that, and agree seems a less than thoughtful to your feelings. That said "don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity". Sometimes we humans make stupid mistakes.
> 
> You know your husband best and your history together. If he's a great man and a great husband and hasn't talked to her in 8 years...just seems like an over reaction to me. But again i understand how that could be a trigger...


Definitely not malicious, but I'm not buying stupid either. If it can be attributed to being the pleaser-type, shouldn't I have been the most important person to want to please?


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## coquille (May 8, 2018)

GHaynes said:


> He said he didn't want to be rude.
> 
> To be fair, coming out to the truck together wasn't his idea. She asked him if it would be ok and he said yes. He felt like saying no would be rude, I guess? He is a ridiculously agreeable guy, but he knew how I would feel about it.


Your husband should send an email, approved by you,addressed to this "friend" telling her that he made a terrible mistake by allowing her to greet you and meet your children. Considering her past actions towards him and you, he should warn her that he will not be making any contact with her should he run into her in the future. 

Sending this email to this woman should help you take off these thoughts. You just need to feel a tangible proof that you are his priority after this encounter with this woman. Looks like your husband's behavior was neither thoughtful nor intelligent, but it's not unforgivable. It doesn't look like you are his second option or he married you out of loyalty only. You two have built a happy life together, and it is worth it to defend it rather than let these thoughts aggravate and destroy what you have.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

GHaynes,

You wrote, *They shared a private connection that simultaneously mocked me to my face. It was beyond a crush. That part I got over (or thought I had). Bringing her out knowing it would make me uncomfortable is not being cordial, not that she deserved even that. He had two choices of people to make uncomfortable and he chose his wife.*

I do recall being around OM1 and my now W, and I have to agree with you that when my W and OM1 were together I was excluded, and there was a certain sense that they had pulled one over on me. Feelings of loneliness, abandonment and unwantedness that deep don't go away. 

I am fairly sure OM1 and my W bonded from mutual complaints about their SOs. OM1 was aware of everything my W disliked about me and must have felt quite superior. 

Have your H write out a timeline of what went on with the OW, possibly take him for a polygraph. Has his story changed over time, it frequently does when they can't remember all the lies they told.

Tamat


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## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

TAMAT said:


> GHaynes,
> 
> You wrote, *They shared a private connection that simultaneously mocked me to my face. It was beyond a crush. That part I got over (or thought I had). Bringing her out knowing it would make me uncomfortable is not being cordial, not that she deserved even that. He had two choices of people to make uncomfortable and he chose his wife.*
> 
> ...


I haven't been able to get a story. I was too stupid or scared to ask back then and he now claims not to remember because nothing happened. I think I'd feel better if I did know everything. Worse, I don't believe he doesn't remember so now I just feel like they've retained this useless connection that I'm not a part of.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

A few things I've thought of doing,

* tell OM1 my W has told me everything and if his story matches up with hers there will be no consequences for him

* tell my W I spoke with OM the reverse of the above.

* contact OM1 current W, the only thing I have on OM1 GF, not his current W, from that time is a first name.

Have you searched digital media for emails, possibly old hard drives phone records etc.

Speaking with OW is ok what do you have to lose, although you might want to wait until all other avenues have been exhaused.

Are there other witnesses to their relationship?

BTW for me it was about 30 years ago now, so fix this before he really does forget.

Tamat


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## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

coquille said:


> Your husband should send an email, approved by you,addressed to this "friend" telling her that he made a terrible mistake by allowing her to greet you and meet your children. Considering her past actions towards him and you, he should warn her that he will not be making any contact with her should he run into her in the future.
> 
> Sending this email to this woman should help you take off these thoughts. You just need to feel a tangible proof that you are his priority after this encounter with this woman. Looks like your husband's behavior was neither thoughtful nor intelligent, but it's not unforgivable. It doesn't look like you are his second option or he married you out of loyalty only. You two have built a happy life together, and it is worth it to defend it rather than let these thoughts aggravate and destroy what you have.


With that being so out of character for him, I feel like it would come across as "my wife made me write this and has barred us from having any contact".
Moreover, I don't want to give him rules. I want him to choose me because he would rather see her unhappy than me unhappy.


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## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

TAMAT said:


> A few things I've thought of doing,
> 
> * tell OM1 my W has told me everything and if his story matches up with hers there will be no consequences for him
> 
> ...


I could contact the friend that told me, though she has less reason to remember. Telling him that I'm going to talk to her might help but I don't think I'd actually go through with it. I wouldn't be able to trust her and it would just fuel her fire. It'd be pretty devastating to learn that he magically remembered after threatening him with that.


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## Steelman (Mar 5, 2018)

GHaynes said:


> My now-husband had an emotional affair with the "friend" that introduced us. By emotional affair, I mean they were both aware of at least his romantic feelings and flirted, both in front of me playing it off as a joke and privately. I know this sounds like I'm an idiot but I was 20 years old and, well, an idiot. While it made me uncomfortable, I honestly didn't believe there was ever anything romantic between them. We spent a lot of time doubling with her then-boyfriend who laughed it off like I did. This continued on for over a year while our relationship progressed into fault serious territory. Shortly after we moved in together, we had a falling out with the "friend" for reasons that I won't go into. She really was just an awful person. Shortly after that, I found out about the secret romance, but not from him. A mutual friend of mine and the "friend" told me after the "friend" basically bragged about it. I was (what I now know was) understandably upset, but made to feel like I was overreacting because "nothing ever happened". Truly, I am not typically this foolish. If I were advising a friend in this situation, I would've told her to vamp. I didn't though. I was able to bury it somehow and now, almost 10 years later, we're married with two kids. I've often thought about the whole thing (wondered if it was really just emotional or what would happen if we saw her again), but I try not to bring it up, if avoidable. He's well aware of my feelings about it and her. It's worth noting that besides this incident and being agreeable to a fault, my husband is pretty much the greatest guy in the world.
> Ok, so 10 years down the road we're out late with the kids, exhausted from working so he runs in to a restaurant to grab all of us dinner to go. Inside, he runs into our old "friend", hugs her, and then allows her to come out to the truck to say hello and meet the kids. I was dumbfounded. It took all my might to restrain myself while she made an audible note of how awkward it was and the two of them made faces at each other like I was the one making it awkward. She left without incident while I just sat quietly fuming and hurt and nauseated. We've talked, weighed the idea of separating, agreed to begin counseling, etc.
> My concern now is because I'm not feeling very optimistic about our relationship. His willingness to make me uncomfortable to prevent her from being uncomfortable is a pretty profound statement of his feelings for me. I think about it constantly and I can't turn it off. I don't want to leave him but I don't want to feel this way worse. I'm mad at myself for creating this situation by not addressing it years ago. I feel like the entire foundation of our relationship is a lie. I have no idea how to fix this or if I even want to. Help!


Disrespectful and stupid maybe- but a divorce over that? Come on. Go see a counselor. This sounds like something that can be worked out.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

I understand why you were hurt by this introduction 10 yrs later. 

I would have never given her the satisfaction of knowing she meant anything by cutting her at the restaurant. I would have shown her my wonderful wife and kids instead of making a possible ruckus. 

I just don’t know your husbands intention of bringing her out to the truck. 

Sorry you’ve been hurt by this.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

GHaynes said:


> Inside, he runs into our old "friend", hugs her, and then allows her to come out to the truck to say hello and meet the kids. I was dumbfounded. It took all my might to restrain myself while she made an audible note of how awkward it was and the two of them made faces at each other like I was the one making it awkward.


Ten years ago when they were playing grab-ass with each other right in front of you and showing you ZERO respect while doing it (and likely doing a whole lot MORE when you *weren't* around), they had no problem rubbing your nose in it every single day. Why would dragging her out to the truck 10 years later be any different for them?

He remembers what happened 10 years ago and it's likely a lot more than you know, and more than he'll ever admit to you.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

coquille said:


> *Your husband should send an email, approved by you,addressed to this "friend" telling her that he made a terrible mistake by allowing her to greet you and meet your children. Considering her past actions towards him and you, he should warn her that he will not be making any contact with her should he run into her in the future.
> *
> Sending this email to this woman should help you take off these thoughts. You just need to feel a tangible proof that you are his priority after this encounter with this woman. Looks like your husband's behavior was neither thoughtful nor intelligent, but it's not unforgivable. It doesn't look like you are his second option or he married you out of loyalty only. You two have built a happy life together, and it is worth it to defend it rather than let these thoughts aggravate and destroy what you have.


I disagree with *this*, I feel there should be ZERO contact with this woman at this point. I think that would only encourage her, or at the least, give her smug satisfaction that she was able, once again, to cause strife between you. I feel like she put him in an awkward position, and he handled it the wrong way. Make it known in no uncertain terms that what he did (by letting her come to your vehicle) was NOT the considerate thing to do, and see about getting into MC so that you can finally put this to rest. If he hasn't been in contact with her all these years, and has not taken up with anyone else either in that time. then I feel like you two can get past this.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Are you concerned that he still cares about her?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

3Xnocharm said:


> I disagree with *this*, I feel there should be ZERO contact with this woman at this point. I think that would only encourage her, or at the least, give her smug satisfaction that she was able, once again, to cause strife between you. I feel like she put him in an awkward position, and he handled it the wrong way. Make it known in no uncertain terms that what he did (by letting her come to your vehicle) was NOT the considerate thing to do, and see about getting into MC so that you can finally put this to rest. If he hasn't been in contact with her all these years, and has not taken up with anyone else either in that time. then I feel like you two can get past this.


Agree. This is one of those times that the cookie cutter "no contact letter" is a ridiculous idea.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

If your husband is a true people-pleaser and agreeable to a fault, then you are on the bottom of his priority list with everyone else in his life, too. Is this correct? If so, then he needs counseling to establish that you come first before all others.

Me, I would stay at my parents and make him pursue me with the ardor of a besotted fool until I felt like I was number one and the kissy-face chick was just a distant memory. And, just for ****s and giggles, I'd make his life a living hell in the meantime. But, I'm a ***** that way.


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## coquille (May 8, 2018)

3Xnocharm said:


> I disagree with *this*, I feel there should be ZERO contact with this woman at this point. I think that would only encourage her, or at the least, give her smug satisfaction that she was able, once again, to cause strife between you. I feel like she put him in an awkward position, and he handled it the wrong way. Make it known in no uncertain terms that what he did (by letting her come to your vehicle) was NOT the considerate thing to do, and see about getting into MC so that you can finally put this to rest. If he hasn't been in contact with her all these years, and has not taken up with anyone else either in that time. then I feel like you two can get past this.


3Xnocharm, I agree that emailing the OW carries its own risks, but the OP was made to feel uncomfortable in front of the OW, as a result of an encounter initiated by the OW, and facilitated by the Husband. For the OP to feel that the husband's behavior was not a materialization of his unconscious/hidden and long-preserved feelings for the OW, the husband needs to do this (or some other action that makes it clear to the OP that he has no lingering feelings for the OW, because the OP wants him to initiate something without her telling him to do it, so that he is not doing it out of obligation or to please her; he is doing it because he sincerely feels that it is a reflection of his own true feelings for her). 

OP, if your husband has expressed his willingness to make things right, why don't you suggest to him what would you like him to do?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I still disagree. I feel that its opening a can of worms that really needs to be left alone.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Only an insecure basket case, would demand a non contact letter for something that ACTUALLY IS to much ado about nothing, regardless of her feelings. This OP should let it rest. If I was the husband, I wouldn't put up too much with this nonsense.


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## Shoyoself (Aug 18, 2017)

Rob_1 said:


> Only an insecure basket case, would demand a non contact letter for something that ACTUALLY IS to much ado about nothing, regardless of her feelings. This OP should let it rest. If I was the husband, I wouldn't put up too much with this nonsense.


I don’t agree with this. I think that if these two are building a life together that is supposed to be for the rest of their lives, drawing a hard line to exclude people that are not friends of the marriage is a good idea. To leave no room for a “maybe someday”. If you’re truly all in, the “friend” will never have a place in their lives.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I do say that this person should not be a part of the husband's life anymore. But to write a no contact letter is weird and excessive and would only be recommended by the most legal listic of you know who followers. This isn't an active affair that just ended. Just cut the woman out and move on


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

@Shoyoself: did you read Ops two posts. This is all about a perceived/or actual EA/FA 8 years ago when he just started going out with her. It is obvious that the husband at that time wanted a relationship with her friend, but the friend shot down that, and he ended out with the OP.

What is making the OP all bend out of shape was a casual encounter with the ex-friend after not seeing each other for about 8 years. All the husband did was to bring her to the car to show her his kids and for her to say hi to the now wife. The most that he did was being daft. But now we are in the ridiculous situation of people (mostly women here) asking for no communication letters, and other idiocies. 

They don't have a relationship with the ex-friend, they haven't communicated with her for years. It was a CHANCE ENCOUNTER with her.

What's in the past is the past. We all go through partners, until we find one that we click enough to commit. Don't we all when young and looking for the one, look around, try to date more than one, get rejected by some, accepted by other and we move On? I'm pretty sure that OP's husband was doing just that at 20, when they met. 

He could of done what the OP says of him with the friend, or they could of just being silly in front of her, true is she doesn't know to this day, in my suspects.
Does the husband has any harboring secret feelings for this woman that rejected him? We don't know, it is all suppositions, and any one guess. This is something that the OP should ask the husband.

But, sending a non contact letter for a chance encounter, oh my, projecting too much? So ridiculous.


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## Shoyoself (Aug 18, 2017)

Rob_1 said:


> @Shoyoself: did you read Ops two posts. This is all about a perceived/or actual EA/FA 8 years ago when he just started going out with her. It is obvious that the husband at that time wanted a relationship with her friend, but the friend shot down that, and he ended out with the OP.
> 
> What is making the OP all bend out of shape was a casual encounter with the ex-friend after not seeing each other for about 8 years. All the husband did was to bring her to the car to show her his kids and for her to say hi to the now wife. The most that he did was being daft. But now we are in the ridiculous situation of people (mostly women here) asking for no communication letters, and other idiocies.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I read the OP’s posts. I see where you’re coming from. I just think that if the OP and her H both agree not to invite any contact, then why leave the door open for the “friend” to pop into their lives on whatever whim she has? If a letter takes 2 minutes and potentially saves them from stress in the future, why not do it?
And I have no horse in this race and don’t mean to argue or say that your opinion is wrong. I only posted so the OP can see different perspectives on this, and hope that she/they can find peace and leave this behind them, one way or the other.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

OP, 60 years old retired career woman here, & 38 years married (first time for the both of us). I remembered one incident when my husband's parents made my then boyfriend (now husband) entertain a childhood friend that was visiting California from Ohio. My husband had to change our date plans to accomodate his parent's request & toted me along with this female childhood friend. We went all over the California coastline for a tour & I felt like a fifth wheel.

The following day, I told my then boyfriend to leave me out from his plans. I further told him that if he did not show up at my house the following day, we were through. In addition, I set my foot down and told him how I felt and that he must chose between me or his childhood friend. He showed up at my house the following day to take me to the beach as previously planned. She turned out to be a previous girlfriend & his parents set him up!

OP, your husband is disrespecting you and put your horrible ex-friend's feelings above yours. Don't spend a lifetime with this husband of yours. You were a choice of convenience because his bi-sexual friend had not chosen him. You've continued to be Plan B. It's your choice to leave or stay in this marriage. Sincerely sorry for your situation.


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## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

*Emotional affair pre-marriage*

I appreciate all the responses. I'm not a regular user on TAM, so I only learned this morning how to go back and view the responses since my last visit was so long ago. I did not contact the OW. Since then, he did confirm my suspicions of his feelings for her and we began counseling. I don't know if it can be considered an emotional affair since he was the only one very invested in it, but as far as I'm concerned the damage is the same, as his investment is all I really care about. Given the opportunity, I have no doubt he would've engaged in a PA. We're dealing with that.
I wanted to also come here to thank those who pointed out the people pleasing issue. While I always felt that it was unhealthy and was vocal about it being a problem, I undoubtedly enabled it. The counselor is helping us to deal with it and I'm learning what a real compulsion it is. I'm under no disillusion that it excuses lying and manipulation, but we are a work in progress.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Make sure it works for YOU.


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## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

@ABHale Thank you. I am. My emotions are all over the place so I'm trying not to make any rash decisions. The hardest part for me is that he knew I considered it cheating (I've always said "if you have to lie about it, it's cheating") and I can't see any scenario where he could think it was acceptable to play nice with her in front of me. He's trying to say it's the people pleaser thing, but I'm not buying it. Time will tell. Meanwhile, I really like our counselor and even if the marriage doesn't survive, we'll be healthier people when it's all said and done.


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## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

@Blondilocks That is an extremely tempting course of action. Staying with my parents isn't an option. I love my parents but I can't live with them (longer story for another day). 
You are correct about the people pleaser thing. I'm often the bottom of his priority list, which we've fought about often and now he's working on it. It sounds like you've got some expertise in the area. Any literature you can recommend for helping me to understand it? I have almost the opposite mindset so I'm reeeeeally struggling.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

GHaynes said:


> @ABHale Thank you. I am. My emotions are all over the place so I'm trying not to make any rash decisions. The hardest part for me is that he knew I considered it cheating (I've always said "if you have to lie about it, it's cheating") and I can't see any scenario where he could think it was acceptable to play nice with her in front of me. He's trying to say it's the people pleaser thing, but I'm not buying it. Time will tell. Meanwhile, I really like our counselor and even if the marriage doesn't survive, we'll be healthier people when it's all said and done.


I agree that it’s not the people pleasing thing. He chose to do what he did. 

I really hope you find happiness.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

@GHaynes, I recommend a couple of books for him.

"No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. R. Glover. Glover has described a set of thought processes and behaviors he calls Nice Guy Syndrome. Being nice is a good thing, being pathologically NICE is a bad thing! Your husband likely felt really cornered by the situation when he ran into that woman in the restaurant. He was unable to stand up the way he should have. I would guess she knows how to manipulate him, and she did so in order to create the awkward scene at the car.

Nice Guys are created as young children. They grow up learning dysfunctional coping strategies, and they tend to have faulty ideas of how relationships work. The book is an excellent resource for him. Note that almost everyone who reads the book ends up believing their wife should not be involved in their work with the book. The author suggests otherwise, but my advice is for you to stay out of his NMMNG work unless he specifically asks you for something. The opposite of Nice isn't Jerk. The goal is to become Integrated, meaning well balanced. It isn't about him being hostile or selfish. Many women assume the book is about something it isn't because of the title.

Another book I recommend is "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by M. Smith. This book is a whole lot more than the title suggests. There's an underlying philosophy that a person has a right to their own boundaries and it is fine to make someone else unhappy. This is something the Nice Guy does not understand. To the Nice Guy, one of the worst things is to make someone else unhappy. The book has many verbal tools for dealing with difficult people to set and hold boundaries.

Your husband may need some IC. MC is by definition loyal to the marriage not the individuals. Your MC can see him individually but only in the context of the marriage. This would be something to discuss with the MC at some point. Books are great but his issues may need more guidance than DIY. There may be a mens' group nearby he could attend. Meetup dot com may have a NMMNG group or a general mens' group which would be free, or he could seek an IC.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

GHaynes said:


> He said he didn't want to be rude.
> 
> To be fair, coming out to the truck together wasn't his idea. She asked him if it would be ok and he said yes. He felt like saying no would be rude, I guess? He is a ridiculously agreeable guy, but he knew how I would feel about it.


During our marriage I was a very social guy. I had some attention from ladies. Some went too far as to falling for me or just asking me for straight out NSA sex. I let all know that I was married from the beginning, I had never cheated my wife in any level.

I told my wife about all of them in detail, and I let those women meet my wife on purpose when it starts getting funny. 

Would you rather have that last encounter hidden from you ?


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

GHaynes,

You were 20 years old and I assume your husband and the others were around the same age when all of you acting silly. You were still kids in adult bodies. Give yourself and others a break.

Do you have other issues personally and/or in your marriage ? It seems like things were brewing already before that incident where you met that woman.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I don't think you should shut your feelings off, or just sweep this under the rug anymore. You did that in the beginning, and here you are ten years later. Sounds like at the very least, counseling could help. If nothing changes, then you could separate. 

No matter what, don't ever become a part of a triangle. There should be no triangles in marriage.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

SweetAndSour said:


> During our marriage I was a very social guy. I had some attention from ladies. Some went too far as to falling for me or just asking me for straight out NSA sex. I let all know that I was married from the beginning, I had never cheated my wife in any level.
> 
> I told my wife about all of them in detail, and I let those women meet my wife on purpose when it starts getting funny.
> 
> Would you rather have that last encounter hidden from you ?


Are you still married?


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## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

@Thor Thank you so much!!!
He's actually reading No More Mr. Nice Guy now, so I guess that's good. We share a Scribd account (we're cheap like that) so I haven't read it. He says there's some written work that goes with it that he intends to do after he reads it a second time, but then he wants me to read it. It seems to be making him miserable, though. He seems to be feeling more guilty than empowered. I don't want to step on his toes by reading it, but I really want to be able to empathize. Maybe I can read the other one you suggested without telling him I am?

No groups available, unfortunately, but he made a real connection with a deacon at our church when he was contemplating converting to my faith. (That was clearly a people pleasing behavior and I'm glad now I went with my gut on that one and advised him to wait. Whew!) Anyway, he's been talking about calling him for lunch recently, so maybe that will be good for him. I really don't know when to encourage him and when to back off. This is tough.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

GHaynes, no problem with you reading WISNIFG. It is a good book for anybody to read. The philosophy part of it is a really good adjunct to NMMNG. A lot of NG's feel guilty when they disappoint someone, because they feel obligated to please everyone. So, when a coworker asks for help moving on Saturday, the NG says yes even when they want to say no. Or, a relative is always asking for money. The NG needs to learn it is ok to say No. The book also provides a number of practical tools for dealing with manipulative people. NG's may not know how to deal with the persistent or manipulative person, so the book gives specific examples.

As far as No More Mr. Nice Guy, the reason most readers suggest the wife not be involved is because he needs to learn some new behaviors and new thought processes. Sometimes this involves him standing up to his wife. Now your situation is a bit atypical because you are the one who is seeing his passive or people-pleasing as a problem. Most times the wife's behavior is also part of the problem, so when she reads the book she is getting an unfair advantage on him. The power dynamic will shift in the relationship, so if the wife likes having power it will be difficult for her. Also, when a man brings NMMNG to his wife it can be (or come across as) him looking for her approval. "Look at what I'm doing! Aren't I a good boy!".

If he asks you to read the book then go ahead.

NGs have difficulty making decisions if there are others involved. e.g. picking a restaurant or movie to go on a date with you. NGs can seek approval/permission for things almost as if they are a child. Sometimes it is just perception. I remember informing my wife on Saturday morning I was going up to take a shower after watching 3 Stooges with the kids. That kind of looked like I was waiting for her permission, though in my mind it was trying to be courteous by informing her what my schedule was. The better action was to say nothing. Sex is a huge area NGs have issues with. I don't want to try to tackle that one here! The other biggie is covert contracts. A regular contract would be where you agree to do X and he agrees to Y. You will pick up the kids from soccer practice and he will go pick up takeout dinner. A covert contract is when somebody expects the other person to do something but it was never overtly agreed to. One simple example is he does the dishes and then expects sex that night. In his mind there is an expectation because he did the dishes for you. But you have no idea this deal exists. So when sex doesn't happen he gets upset. You detect his annoyance but don't know why. Resentments build. Another NG behavior is care taking, which is doing things for other people without them asking.

This is all on a continuum, where some is good but the NG is over the line into dysfunction.

You can encourage him to have his own time and activities. Maybe he could join a golf league or other activity at work with other men. My ex's church had a men's beer and pizza night once per week. Your husband will benefit from having male centric activities. If he seems to be asking permission about things, you can guide him to become declarative. If he won't make decisions such as asking where you want to go to dinner, tell him not to ask but to just decide and tell you. If you don't like his choice you will speak up. (If you are always undermining his choices then there is another problem to deal with). If he is care taking, you can point it out to him.

Your MC should be able to help with a lot of this stuff, too, at least as it appears within your marriage.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> Are you still married?


Nope.


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## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

@Thor All of that sounds exactly like our situation. I can't help but be relieved to hear that I'm not like the typical partner that all these Google articles I'm reading describe. I was concerned because the OW is that person to a T and I make a conscious effort not to treat people that way, especially people like him. I guess I thought it was saying that is who he belongs with or wants, but it's actually saying she's bad for him. 
And so this all explains why he seems to be able to justify half-truths and the like as if they're not lies? The MC told me I needed to just be patient with the process but that I didn't have to be patient with the lying (white lies included). They're almost never anything serious, but I think that makes it even more frustrating that he feels the need to lie about them. It just makes everything 10x more difficult, which is the surest way to piss me off. I guess that's why we keep repeating this ridiculous pattern. 
I don't mean to keep bugging you with these questions. I really appreciate all your help.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Is it possible that whilst HE thought there was nothing to it, SHE thought otherwise?

She wrecked her relationship by cheating please don't let her wreck your relationship.

Counselling is an option I hope you will consider?


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## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

@Thor All of that sounds exactly like our situation. I can't help but be relieved to hear that I'm not like the typical partner that all these Google articles I'm reading describe. I was concerned because the OW is that person to a T and I make a conscious effort not to treat people that way, especially people like him. I guess I thought it was saying that is who he belongs with or wants, but it's actually saying she's bad for him. 
And so this all explains why he seems to be able to justify half-truths and the like as if they're not lies? The MC told me I needed to just be patient with the process but that I didn't have to be patient with the lying (white lies included). They're almost never anything serious, but I think that makes it even more frustrating that he feels the need to lie about them. It just makes everything 10x more difficult, which is the surest way to piss me off. I guess that's why we keep repeating this ridiculous pattern. 
I don't mean to keep bugging you with these questions. I really appreciate all your help.


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## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

@MattMatt No, she is just an attention seeker. I knew that well before I even met my husband. I believe that it was never physical but only because she didn't really want it. She just wanted to know she could have it.
We are in counseling. TAM has just been where I turn when I feel like I'm going to lose it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

GHaynes said:


> @MattMatt No, she is just an attention seeker. I knew that well before I even met my husband. I believe that it was never physical but only because she didn't really want it. She just wanted to know she could have it.
> We are in counseling. TAM has just been where I turn when I feel like I'm going to lose it.


That's cool! 

@GHaynes, I wonder if the situation was that he though they were joking, but she wasn't joking?

I was in a situation when a woman had apparently set her cap at me (great old fashioned British expression, that!) and I was totally unaware of it. I just thought we were friends, but apparently not.

My wife warned me about her but I had known her for years (longer than I'd known my wife) and didn't see her as anything more than a friend.

However, I found out from a third party that she wanted me as, amongst other things, she thought I'd be an ideal father for her two children. *And I never had a bloody clue! Not one!* 

So, what men should be capable of seeing/knowing and what we actually are capable of seeing/knowing can be entirely different.


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## Blaine (Jul 23, 2015)

GHaynes I'm sorry for what ur feeling. So if I'm understanding this right ur H had a crush on this woman. She was a selfish ***** so she liked him wanting her but had no intention of doing anything she just liked the attention. So now ur wondering if you were the consolation prize and if u just wasted 10 years of ur life. Only you and he can answer that. U did mention he was a people pleaser and it was her idea to come to the truck. I kinda think if you had something to worry about he wouldnt have let that happen but who knows. I would urge for the childrens sake to at least try.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> So, what men should be capable of seeing/knowing and what we actually are capable of seeing/knowing can be entirely different.


I believe nature has given humans some blind spots. Men are blind to some things about women, and vice versa. But, men see through other men, and women see through other women. So, as in the OP's case, when a woman has bad feelings about another woman and the husband doesn't see it, there's a very good chance the wife is right and the husband's brain is programmed to be blind to the threat.

And vice versa of course.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

@GHaynes

Has your husband had any other issues with flirting or giving too much attention to other women since the "friend"?

Have you set boundaries and told him the consequences of having contact with her again, and if it was beyond his control you need to know immediately?

Have you told her in no uncertain terms you want her out of your life permanently?

I think the last two questions are imperatives. They don't need to be elaborate and actually shouldn't be. Short, concise and to the point.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

I think it's not relevant whether the OW wanted or wants your husband or was just flirting ... it's his behavior/reaction that you have to live with.

Frankly, I think the term 'people pleaser' is misleadingly positive for what amounts to toxic behavior towards you. It's a cover story (along with him lying over small stuff etc) for something deeper that's broken that he needs to fix. It's good he's making an effort. 

Anyway....what I really wanted to say is his peer group is important so encourage contact with someone like the deacon....someone that can role model appropriate behavior and encourage him. Good luck!


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