# Green Shoots Amidst the Wreckage



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

There is no thread that contains my story. I remember finding this place in the browser history after a particularly nasty fight with my wife. She was reading Athol Kay's recommendations on the 10 second kiss and other ideas about generating sparks in your relationship. She had never mentioned this website to me.

We have abused each other emotionally and physically. She points out that I've never hit her, but she has gotten injured when we scuffled. We've even been visited by the police and one of us spent the night in holdover.

Yet, through all of this our attraction to each other remained constant. I could list all the issues. But, that's not what's important right now. Yes, she was abused as a child. And, I was the prototypical nice guy. Of course, I was going to rescue her. Yeah, right. Round and round the drama triangle we spun our wheels. Me as the rescuer. Her as the victim. No boundaries at all. Of course, I'd get my turn as the victim when I'd had my own fill of being nice with expectations. I'd then make a cameo appearance as the avenging persecutor. She'd slide back into the victim role and away we'd go.

So, whatever knowledge I can impart here is from hard won experience. I now realize I was hoping to fix her so she could fix me. Once I got about fixing me, things changed rapidly.

And, you can bet your life, "I'm not ok with that" became a huge part of my vocabulary. Just as jpr and SoVeryLost don't like what they're currently seeing about how they've "been", I had a similar epiphany. I ended up with my head in my arms sobbing at work (thank God I was working alone that day). I was confronting my own blameshifting and anger - the two qualities I despised most in her... (OF COURSE).

As our separation ground on, we continued to see each other and date occasionally. We likely still have more and hotter sex than most couples. Of course it's passionate when you think every time might be the last - ever. But, we've always been very very in tune with each other in that department. As good in the bedroom as we were rotten everywhere else. When you're in a second marriage, nobody dreams of having a "first", yet we've learned on each other's bodies in several different ways.

Why am I telling you this?

Well, as you can likely imagine, the fights were as passionate as the sex, as we are both intelligent and really hate being wrong. Add in six children between us and the tinderbox only needed a bit of gasoline to ignite.

My first marriage was largely loveless. Adopting special needs kids from overseas sent us into a slow motion death spiral. I understand why special needs parents divorce at a 90% rate. We gutted it out 20 years before I pulled the plug - shortly after my 16 y/o daughter knifed herself in a suicide attempt on my 44th birthday. 3 inch wound. Unreal terror.

My wife was a friend of mine at the time. She offered to help me with my daughter. My wife was adopted and figured she had the background (troubled teen) to connect with my adopted Little Sweetheart.

Talk about a tinderbox of emotions. As we worked with my daughter, I simply had to have this woman for me. I airbrushed every single red flag and chased her.

Of course, after we got married, we started fighting in our blended family. Soon, I realized I was very deep in the weeds. I've likely spent more than 10 thousand dollars on counseling for me and her over the past 5 years.

But, as Uptown will tell you, counseling is no silver bullet. My wife went though counseling without ever asking what she could do differently to help our relationship. On this forum, she never asked a single question of what could be different from her to improve things. In short, she often behaved in the same classic manner as OVS', Houstondad's, synthetic's, Lifescript's, and Matt1720's spouses - to name a few. No responsibility taken.
*
UNTIL YESTERDAY*

6 full years after we became a couple.

To say the least, I am stunned.

The reason why counseling was so important to me is that I no longer lie to protect her. I care for her deeply. Damn, I've never loved anyone like this. As egotistical as this sounds, I thought I could fix her.

But, by risking the entire thing. Letting her move out. Not chasing. "I'm not ok with this" - when I wasn't. Cutting her off financially. No enabling. Controlling emotion. And - telling the truth. It looks like it has finally happened. She is seeing herself. And she hates it. She is - literally - falling all over herself to apologize about specifics. Things she is owning that she has never owned - and I never EVER thought she would.

I've been crying a river all morning. I'm completely speechless and overwhelmed. And, in this truth-telling phase, now I am scared. I really don't want to screw this up. She is so precious to me. To hear words of genuine remorse, contrition, and warmth as she breaks out of the cold-hearted shell she wore for the world.

I just want to wrap my arms around her and never let go, while I continue to sob without ceasing.

It does feel good to actually practice what you preach. I actually had given up almost all hope. I never thought this would be possible.

Thanks for reading this. Please pray for us.

Many thanks to so many of you who have helped me so very much. My cup overflows with gratitude.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Thanks for sharing this, Conrad. You are so helpful to so many people, and I know that that good karma will come back to you threefold, at least.

*hugs*


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

Conrad - I wish you the best as you begin this new part of your journey. As I read your account, though, I did find myself wondering - what was the catalyst for her new introspection? What triggered this change?

I don't know this firsthand as I've never experienced it, but I would assume an estranged spouse returning to you when reconciliation was always your goal must also bring along with it a plethora of mixed emotions. One, namely, would be happiness. And for that I am happy for you. But please proceed with caution. As someone who is going through something similar to your wife, I saw the mistakes, I saw my wrong-doings, I needed him to know for my benefit just as much for his. But I didn't want him back. In fact it made me want to run even further from him. Do what you know is right. Call upon all the advice you have self-lessly given to others on this forum. Keep your guard up, at least somewhat. The best may yet to be, but the worst may not be over yet either. Stay strong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Matt1720 (May 7, 2012)

This is awesome news, like sunshine breaking through the clouds!

Theres nothing for you to screw up at this point. Thats been her job up until now, you just observe and give only as good as you truly get.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

SoVeryLost,

Thanks for the kind words and for caring enough to write them.

She has always backed away from trust. The other night, she got hold of my phone and started a rigorous interrogation of my activities with female friends from work.

Keep in mind that we've been living separately since November of last year. Additionally, her proposals to socialize with me most often only grant me her time when her kids are not present. So, she's been offering me crumbs of love. Of course, that's not sufficient to sustain a relationship. I've pointed out that's like being married to her kids and having an affair with me.

So, I "haven't been ok" with crumbs of love.

In this time period, she's had to move 3 times. What she's starting to realize is that she's "Mrs. Nice Mom" - enabling her kids. These are her words now. Without me to blame, they've had to deal with each other. 14 and 16 year old girls aren't the easiest people on earth with which to deal. Through this process, she is starting to tune into the disrespect and the really difficult position I occupied.

As for female friends, I've enforced a boundary on anything physical, but have been having a blast going out with them.

Some of apparent affection and banter she read was problematic for her, but she was impressed by how I answered her honestly and without hemming and hawing. She ended up laying awake nearly all night with wave after wave of insight coming to her about the entire relationship.

It just seemed that there was no other place to shift blame so she looked within. She now says she's gone through a door and won't be going back.

When I spoke the words to her on the phone, "All I ever wanted was for you to love me", my chest was heaving. For the first time, I believe she does - because she is acting like it.

I could give additional details, but I was exceptionally stupid about something last night. Something that she has simply dug into me about countless times. So much so that I try to CYA whenever I possibly can. She saw me doing the CYA thing last night and REALIZED it was because I didn't want to get ripped apart. She told me this. AND... she didn't do it. She even saw me expecting it... and empathized with what she saw.

I'm truly overwhelmed. This must have been how the women felt when they saw the stone rolled away in the Bible. She says she forgives me. And, she's acting like it.

Can I forgive her she asks? How can I not?

One last thing. We hear all this sappy talk of "soul mates" when people run to the arms of PosOM and PosOW. I heard a different definition of "soul mate" that rings clear.

A soul mate is a person in your life that forces you to confront you. And, by "you", I mean the deepest blackest nastiest little corners of your soul. The stuff you defend vigorously. The stuff you run from. The stuff you don't want anyone to know and even less acknowledge to yourself. Sometimes the rupture caused by these insights are too difficult for you to stay with that person. But, you are forever transformed by having them in your life.

I always knew why she was in my life. She has been that catalyst for me. The passion I felt for her was so intense, I had no choice but to root out all that sludge. My question has been "why have I been in her life?" Friends have advised me that it's "not my problem" and it's "hers to figure out". Well, I never felt right about her being that sort of positive catalyst for me and then running away. That's where I implemented the "observation" strategy I encourage for Lifescript and others. I was going to observe for a year. We've only halfway through that year.

Remember that dogs can only run halfway into the woods - because during the second half, they're actually running out.





SoVeryLost said:


> Conrad - I wish you the best as you begin this new part of your journey. As I read your account, though, I did find myself wondering - what was the catalyst for her new introspection? What triggered this change?
> 
> I don't know this firsthand as I've never experienced it, but I would assume an estranged spouse returning to you when reconciliation was always your goal must also bring along with it a plethora of mixed emotions. One, namely, would be happiness. And for that I am happy for you. But please proceed with caution. As someone who is going through something similar to your wife, I saw the mistakes, I saw my wrong-doings, I needed him to know for my benefit just as much for his. But I didn't want him back. In fact it made me want to run even further from him. Do what you know is right. Call upon all the advice you have self-lessly given to others on this forum. Keep your guard up, at least somewhat. The best may yet to be, but the worst may not be over yet either. Stay strong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

What a read...

Conrad, I'm speechless.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

Conrad,

If you are asking that question, clearly you have already forgiven her. Perhaps you haven't verbalized this to her yet, but the forgiveness is there in your heart. The issue, I would argue, is not forgiveness.

The afterglow from all of your wife's introspection will likely leave you both feeling the warm fuzzies. And that will last for a bit of time. But once that afterglow wears off, where does that leave you as a couple? You clearly have a lot to process right now, so don't overwhelm yourself. Take things one day at a time. But keep the big picture in mind. What changes will need to happen for the situation to be acceptable for you? Is she willing to make these changes permanently? I believe she can, as I know I can, but it will take a great deal of work. Only time will tell if she is commited to making those changes long-term.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

Conrad, I really enjoyed your post, and liked that you've finally shared your story. 

I am very happy that thing have finally taken a turn in a more promising direction for you. I fully believe the advice you've given people on TAM has been from your own experience and situation. 

I've always values your intelligent, challenging and insightful posts. I do wish you the very best as you situation unfolds. I think that if you practice what you've been preaching, you'll be in a very good position to nurture the rebirth and strengthening of your relationship.

I wish you nothing but the best, You've been a huge help to so many on TAM, including myself. So very good to see some light shine in your life.


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

Congrats Conrad.

I love how SVL now gets to turn this around... I don't know about everyone else, but I could read the back and forth between the two of you all night.


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

coachman said:


> Congrats Conrad.
> 
> I love how SVL now gets to turn this around... I don't know about everyone else, but I could read the back and forth between the two of you all night.


Congratulations Conrad, you are to the point but I respect that from you, I wish you will continue some of us lost souls & good luck on your new journey. I also am speechless
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Conrad, 

You've been like a mentor to me and so many others here. I wish you happiness and that you are able to save this relationship. STBXW has had moments where I have though wao she finally gets it but then the next day things change but thats because she may be BPDer. 

Again, congrats on this. I hope things continue to improve.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Lifescript said:


> Conrad,
> 
> You've been like a mentor to me and so many others here. I wish you happiness and that you are able to save this relationship. STBXW has had moments where I have though wao she finally gets it but then the next day things change but thats because she may be BPDer.
> 
> ...


She says she wants to be with me forever.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Conrad said:


> She says she wants to be with me forever.


I'm sure you have your reasons for believing her this time, because I'm also sure she has said that before.

You're smart enough to figure it out. No need for us to worry.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

synthetic said:


> I'm sure you have your reasons for believing her this time, because I'm also sure she has said that before.
> 
> You're smart enough to figure it out. No need for us to worry.


I'm on it synthetic. But, I appreciate the support, more than you'll ever know.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Lifescript said:


> Conrad,
> 
> You've been like a mentor to me and so many others here. I wish you happiness and that you are able to save this relationship. STBXW has had moments where I have though wao she finally gets it but then the next day things change but thats because she may be BPDer.
> 
> ...


How old is stbxw?

Is she hot?


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

This makes me so happy for you. 

How do you know when they are 4 real?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

29
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

Wish you nothing but the best Conrad, I really hope you two can work things out and flourish from this.

Must say, I'm rather jealous that you ex was finally able to start owning her part in everything. What a feeling that must be for you.

Once again, wish nothing but the best for you!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Lifescript said:


> This makes me so happy for you.
> 
> How do you know when they are 4 real?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When they own it.

When they own it, they say things like this:

"I rejected you too. The theme of our marriage was that I didn't need you. That had to hurt you so deeply. I am sorry for that. I have needed you the entire time, but I was so broken and afraid."

This is verbatim.

I have about 25-30 more just like it. I'm sure you understand me not posting them. I love her so.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Got it. 

She has said stuff like I didnt show you love and affection because I was afraid of you leaving me. I didn't think I was worthy of your love and always felt like you would be cheating with other more attractive women, better than me.

Sometimes I think maybe she has at times really known what the mistakes were but it changes later on. Like she apologized and understood why her keeping the toxic friends OM's relatives was wrong but didnt agree with it. 

How does one forgive and moves on after so much disrespect. How does your heart heal after something like this. I guess true remorse would be vital the first step.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Lifescript said:


> Got it.
> 
> She has said stuff like I didnt show you love and affection because I was afraid of you leaving me. I didn't think I was worthy of your love and always felt like you would be cheating with other more attractive women, better than me.
> 
> ...


If the remorse is true, the story doesn't change.

No one backtracks once they truly own it.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

Conrad said:


> If the remorse is true, the story doesn't change.
> 
> No one backtracks once they truly own it.


That last line also applies to ourselves.

Conrad, I've no doubt you'll observe her (and yourself) at 50,000 feet and truly feel this through in your mind and soul. You have the necessary tools and I can tell you've done a great deal of self-reflection and growth in your life. 

Wishing you both the very best.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Thanks for posting this conrad. Your example has given me something to aspire too...


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## DjF (Nov 24, 2010)

Conrad, been separated 18 months here, but soon my wife will move back home, I've missed her terribly after 25 years of being together...but these past 18 months have been a lot of fun getting to know myself better..getting to know my 2 sons better...30 years ago today, my wife and I went out on our first date, by the time I got home that night, I knew I had met my soul mate...just forgot that somewhere a long the line...

I hope and pray things continue to grow for you and your wife, haven't been on here much lately, but what I read of your post, you challenge people to think within themselves when they are all wrapped up with what is happening around them...you keep things grounded...good job!
Dan


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## Andy968 (Apr 29, 2012)

Conrad said:


> If the remorse is true, the story doesn't change.
> 
> No one backtracks once they truly own it.


Your ability to summarize a concept and state it clearly has been a source of guidance to me, and obviously too many on TAM. Thank you so much. I will pray as your marriage turns the next corner for the better.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Conrad said:


> When they own it.
> 
> When they own it, they say things like this:
> 
> ...


Did your wife show positive signs before finally owning it? My wife is being less distant and starting to show hope of wanting to do things together again, but I haven't seen any ownership at all.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jdlash said:


> Did your wife show positive signs before finally owning it? My wife is being less distant and starting to show hope of wanting to do things together again, but I haven't seen any ownership at all.


Usually, the first 20-30% is "inch along" progress where you will see some signs of change.

The last part comes with a rush. It's transformational and it is impossible to miss it.

As "niceguys", we often take a small sign and generalize that we're headed towards "blue sky" when we should continue to stick to our knitting, observe, and wait.


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## RDJ (Jun 8, 2011)

Great news Conrad.

"To change your marriage, change yourself".

Wishing the both of you the best. You deserve nothing less.

Peace Brother!


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