# Ladies, why did you stay?



## southbound

I've read a lot of threads during my months here about women who have stayed in a marriage for many years while facing, by my way of measuring, much, much more serious issues than what my wife and I had when she divorced me after 18 years.

For those of you who have stayed in a marriage with serious problems and misery for so many years, why did you do it? Was it as simple as being in love? Did the positives still outweigh the bad? Did you view marriage as sacred and you really meant it when you said, "I do?" Was it for the children? thanks.


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## stumblealong

Child and co-dependency. Working on the co-dependency ...planning to be free one day soon!


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## LuvMyH

My husband and I went through a few years of disconnect and resentment. I think one of the reasons I stayed had to do with guilt carried over from divorcing my first husband. He made sure I and everyone else knew how miserable he was when I left, so I sort of felt like I deserved any unhappiness I experienced in my current marriage. Another reason was laziness. I was pretty depressed over my infertility and just didn't have the gumption to leave or try to make things better. We finally hit rock bottom and things turned around for the better. 

There was a study done that showed most people who felt they were very unhappy in their marriage no longer felt that way 5 years later. I think someone posted it on TAM in longterm success in marriage. I see how that can be true. If you stick it out through the tough times, sometimes you can be rewarded with a happy marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

^ I've read about the 5 years later-thing, too Luv. It makes sense, actually.


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## alwaysnforever

Jellybeans said:


> ^ I've read about the 5 years later-thing, too Luv. It makes sense, actually.


Does anyone have a link to anything about this? I would love to read up on it.

Thanks!


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## Jellybeans

Does Divorce Make People Happy?: Findings From a Study of Unhappy Marriages - Stronger Marriage - strongermarriage.org


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## turnera

One, money. Two, fear of his reaction and expecting him to be a jerk for the next several years. Mainly #2.


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## COGypsy

So then how do you decide whether you just wait out 72 months of boredom, resentment and frustration to see if that magic wand happens to wave for you? 

The web page didn't seem to indicate that counseling made much difference, just that people either got happier together or happier on their own but still married.... If you already have the separate lives...do you just hope for one of the other two options to hit? Or do you take your chances before you're just 5 years older and even more logistically enmeshed? It's a hard bet....


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## southbound

Jellybeans said:


> Does Divorce Make People Happy?: Findings From a Study of Unhappy Marriages - Stronger Marriage - strongermarriage.org


This article is very interesting. I honestly believe if my x wife had held on, she would have been happier later, but she chose to divorce.


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## Riverside MFT

southbound said:


> This article is very interesting. I honestly believe if my x wife had held on, she would have been happier later, but she chose to divorce.


It is sad that you missed the "chance" of things improving in the relationship over time. I think patience and perseverance are attributes that need to be exercised more regularly within a marriage. Applying those would, imho, save a lot of uneccsary divorces.


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## magnoliagal

The first 7 years of my marriage were rocky. According to that article we fall into the aggressive category. We sought help and refused to give up. The key element in our problems was my ptsd/depression and when we sought help I quickly realized that (I had no idea prior to that). I see now that my willingness to take ownership of that and my determination to fix it is what kept us together. We BOTH worked very hard to stay together and yes I believe it takes two to do this.

That said I'm so glad we held on during the rough times. We will celebrate our 20th wedding anniversay next month and I can honestly say now we have a happy marriage. This was no quick fix though. It's been a long sometimes painful process but I'm glad neither of us gave up. I don't think divorcing would have solved anything for either us. We both had baggage and we would have simple carried that into our next relationships. No doubt about it. Now we grow TOGETHER and that to me is amazing.

Oh forgot the most important thing. I stayed because I loved him.


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## Craggy456

Money and medical insurance


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## Enchantment

Probably the first 3 -4 years we were married it devolved in to a big mess for us. However, after everything was laid out, we both decided that we were willing to work through our issues, and we did. It wasn't always easy, but we have been married 23 years now.

But, as Riverside said, if you have patience and persistence, along with willingness on both sides and open communication, you can go far.

I stayed because I loved him, he agreed to work on it with me, and he held up his end of the bargain, and we are still together.


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## southbound

Riverside MFT said:


> It is sad that you missed the "chance" of things improving in the relationship over time. I think patience and perseverance are attributes that need to be exercised more regularly within a marriage. Applying those would, imho, save a lot of uneccsary divorces.


True. I have been trying to understand why I am divorced for several months now. My wife basically had the characteristics of the "walk away wife" that was described in another thread. It has puzzled me to no end. After coming here, I have discovered that she is not the first wife to divorce for what I look at as lame reasons.

I just can't figure out why she felt divorce was the solution and why she didn't want to give it another try once she got my attention. If I had still been hesitant to work, I might could understand better. Being that we had a lot of good years in the beginning, and I do think she really loved me, I can't understand why she didn't want to try.


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## Enchantment

southbound said:


> True. I have been trying to understand why I am divorced for several months now. My wife basically had the characteristics of the "walk away wife" that was described in another thread. It has puzzled me to no end. After coming here, I have discovered that she is not the first wife to divorce for what I look at as lame reasons.
> 
> I just can't figure out why she felt divorce was the solution and why she didn't want to give it another try once she got my attention. If I had still been hesitant to work, I might could understand better. Being that we had a lot of good years in the beginning, and I do think she really loved me, I can't understand why she didn't want to try.


southbound ~

Have you ever asked her these questions?


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## southbound

Enchantment said:


> southbound ~
> 
> Have you ever asked her these questions?


Oh yes, I asked. By the time she got my attention, she said it was too late and she no longer had feelings for me. That is the verbal answer, but it is not a satisfying answer to me. 

When I first came to the forum, I made the comment that I was puzzled because we just aren't the kind of people who divorce. Some people thought that was naive of me, and apparently it was, but when people go against who they have claimed to be for so long, it's just puzzling. 

It may be tough to explain, but divorce just seemed like a huge step for a person with her beliefs and personality to make without giving a 100% to make the marriage work. 

If a woman had come to my wife at anytime during the first 17 years of our marriage seeking advice and saying she wanted to divorce her husband for the same reasons my x gave, she would have done everything in her power to convince her not to divorce. Then, my x would have talked to me about how ridiculous the woman was; however, she apparently thinks it's all good now.


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## Runs like Dog

I think in my wife's case she stays because she will never take responsibility for her own life or be accountable for anything she does. Also I think that the truly paranoid really DO want to make everyone around them as miserable as they are.


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## Enchantment

southbound said:


> Oh yes, I asked. By the time she got my attention, she said it was too late and she no longer had feelings for me. That is the verbal answer, but it is not a satisfying answer to me.
> 
> When I first came to the forum, I made the comment that I was puzzled because we just aren't the kind of people who divorce. Some people thought that was naive of me, and apparently it was, but when people go against who they have claimed to be for so long, it's just puzzling.
> 
> It may be tough to explain, but divorce just seemed like a huge step for a person with her beliefs and personality to make without giving a 100% to make the marriage work.
> 
> If a woman had come to my wife at anytime during the first 17 years of our marriage seeking advice and saying she wanted to divorce her husband for the same reasons my x gave, she would have done everything in her power to convince her not to divorce. Then, my x would have talked to me about how ridiculous the woman was; however, she apparently thinks it's all good now.


Wow. How old is your ex? Sounds like she kind of did a 180 in the wrong direction. I guess that's what the Walk-away Wife stuff is. I don't really know what's going on with a woman in that case - I've never had those kinds of feelings, thankfully. Seems like it could set a woman up for a big case of regret later, especially if she was with a decent guy.

Hang in there!


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## turnera

southbound said:


> Oh yes, I asked. By the time she got my attention, she said it was too late and she no longer had feelings for me. That is the verbal answer, but it is not a satisfying answer to me.


I'm sure you know by now that women suffer in silence. For years. They expect men to be as tuned in to the marriage as they are. When the men continue to travel in oblivion, satisfied (probably because the wife is doing 75% of the work), and the women try to get the husband to notice she's not happy, and they don't, the women stew in silence. Resenting. Growing angry. Going through all the stages of ending a relationship, in silence, with the man none the wiser. Until, when she's finally at the final stage - having NO feelings left for you (already gone past the sad, anger, resenting, etc. stages until there simply is no love left - and you finally notice what she's saying, it IS too late. You men then go through all the stages after she leaves; she's already been there. That's why you couldn't make it work - you didn't pay attention; you settled in and enjoyed the ride without worrying about her.


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## southbound

Enchantment said:


> Wow. How old is your ex? Sounds like she kind of did a 180 in the wrong direction. I guess that's what the Walk-away Wife stuff is. I don't really know what's going on with a woman in that case - I've never had those kinds of feelings, thankfully. Seems like it could set a woman up for a big case of regret later, especially if she was with a decent guy.
> 
> Hang in there!


She's 38. She was always the most laid back, down to earth, sensible, spiritual woman I had ever met. It's one thing to say that things aren't always what they seem, but she put off an air that made everybody think she was the happiest woman on earth while we were married. One of her friends told me that she was often envious of things she would tell her that we shared. She said she often thought, "I wish I had that with my husband."

I won't be able to post a picture of my "Husband of the Century" award, because I don't have one. I realize now that i could have made a lot of improvements on my relationship skills, but i am a decent guy. Perhaps a lot of people don't look at it this way, but I look at the absence of negatives as a positive in a lot of areas of life.

For example, I was a guy that she didn't have to worry about, and she knew it. She knew i wasn't going to cheat on her, or get angry and hit her, or call her bad names in anger, or run our finances in the gutter, or come home drunk, or be mean to the kids, and she could depend on me to do my share of the work around the house. I was a good provider, and together, we built our dream home. If I told her i would be home at 5:00 but didn't show up until 7:00, she knew in her heart there was a good reason and that i wasn't out doing something i shouldn't. 

I won't go into detail, but she had some serious issues with her family once, and she told a friend that if it hadn't been for me being there for her to lean on, she didn't think she would have made it. 

Does that excuse me for not giving her the things she needed emotionally? No, but I didn't intentionally deny her, I guess i was just too ignorant to know what to do. I apparently still acted in a way that made her feel that I didn't love her, so she lost feelings for me. I've learned here that it has to do with the "Love Languages."

I just don't understand how much greener she thinks the grass can get. I don't think she will ever find someone who will fulfill all her needs.


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## Prodigal

turnera said:


> I'm sure you know by now that women suffer in silence. For years. They expect men to be as tuned in to the marriage as they are. When the men continue to travel in oblivion, satisfied (probably because the wife is doing 75% of the work), and the women try to get the husband to notice she's not happy, and they don't, the women stew in silence. Resenting. Growing angry. Going through all the stages of ending a relationship, in silence, with the man none the wiser. Until, when she's finally at the final stage - having NO feelings left for you (already gone past the sad, anger, resenting, etc. stages until there simply is no love left - and you finally notice what she's saying, it IS too late. You men then go through all the stages after she leaves; she's already been there. That's why you couldn't make it work - you didn't pay attention; you settled in and enjoyed the ride without worrying about her.


southbound, I think you just got your answer. ^^^

I suggest you read turnera's post again. And again. And again. This is the best explanation I have ever read as to why so many women walk and the husband is standing there in total shock. I know a gal who did just this, and left her husband stunned and asking "why" for years. As a woman, I can attest to the "suffer in silence" mode and "nothing's wrong" when asked response. I've played that game myself.


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## southbound

Prodigal said:


> southbound, I think you just got your answer. ^^^
> 
> I suggest you read turnera's post again. And again. And again. This is the best explanation I have ever read as to why so many women walk and the husband is standing there in total shock. I know a gal who did just this, and left her husband stunned and asking "why" for years. As a woman, I can attest to the "suffer in silence" mode and "nothing's wrong" when asked response. I've played that game myself.


This is probably just the "logical male mind" in me, but even though the "stewing in silence" is apparently a normal female reaction, is it really productive? If someone acts like things are ok, regardless if it's my boss, brother, friend, or wife, then I logically assume they are ok. That just makes sense to me. Otherwise, it seems like we are playing a dangerous game. 

Since this has been identified as how it is, perhaps both men and women could learn from it to help marriages in the future. Perhaps men should "pay more attention" and women shouldn't "stew in silence" as much.


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## Therealbrighteyes

turnera said:


> I'm sure you know by now that women suffer in silence. For years. They expect men to be as tuned in to the marriage as they are. When the men continue to travel in oblivion, satisfied (probably because the wife is doing 75% of the work), and the women try to get the husband to notice she's not happy, and they don't, the women stew in silence. Resenting. Growing angry. Going through all the stages of ending a relationship, in silence, with the man none the wiser. Until, when she's finally at the final stage - having NO feelings left for you (already gone past the sad, anger, resenting, etc. stages until there simply is no love left - and you finally notice what she's saying, it IS too late. You men then go through all the stages after she leaves; she's already been there. That's why you couldn't make it work - you didn't pay attention; you settled in and enjoyed the ride without worrying about her.


I couldn't agree with you more. That was my situation for 15 years and I had the divorce papers ready to be served. One day out of the blue he comes home and announces that he is all in and that we need to get our marriage back on track. He couldn't conceive of the idea that for 15 years I was barely a thought and I had checked out of the marriage. Suddenly when I mattered to him, I should be open and willing to fix things. Well I withdrew the divorce petition but I would be lying if I said it was for any other reason than we have children. He has now spent the better part of 2 years working on making things right and yet here I am struggling daily to forgive, work on things and look towards a brighter future. We have had wonderful days and things are much better and we do get along very well but it is a struggle to put the bad thoughts behind me.
Having said that, if I had to do it all over again, I would have never married him knowing what I know now. It isn't because of lack of love for him. I really do love him. It is that 15 years of pain and rejection is too much for one person to have to bear.


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## Enchantment

turnera said:


> I'm sure you know by now that women suffer in silence. For years. They expect men to be as tuned in to the marriage as they are. When the men continue to travel in oblivion, satisfied (probably because the wife is doing 75% of the work), and the women try to get the husband to notice she's not happy, and they don't, the women stew in silence. Resenting. Growing angry. Going through all the stages of ending a relationship, in silence, with the man none the wiser. Until, when she's finally at the final stage - having NO feelings left for you (already gone past the sad, anger, resenting, etc. stages until there simply is no love left - and you finally notice what she's saying, it IS too late. You men then go through all the stages after she leaves; she's already been there. That's why you couldn't make it work - you didn't pay attention; you settled in and enjoyed the ride without worrying about her.


This is a great summary.

:soapbox:

But for any ladies reading this who may be in this situation - don't be suffering in silence! If you've never expressed how you feel or what you need or you just quit doing it because you felt it was falling on deaf ears - well, who is to blame for that?

You don't have to suffer in silence. Woman up - stand up for yourselves! Demand the respect and appreciation that you deserve and if you don't get it, then you know what you need to do. Don't let it sit and stew for years! Sometimes easier said than done, I know. But wouldn't you rather have back those years of your life? Okay, rant over, I feel better now that I didn't stew in silence.


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## Therealbrighteyes

southbound said:


> This is probably just the "logical male mind" in me, but even though the "stewing in silence" is apparently a normal female reaction, is it really productive? If someone acts like things are ok, regardless if it's my boss, brother, friend, or wife, then I logically assume they are ok. That just makes sense to me. Otherwise, it seems like we are playing a dangerous game.
> 
> Since this has been identified as how it is, perhaps both men and women could learn from it to help marriages in the future. Perhaps men should "pay more attention" and women shouldn't "stew in silence" as much.


None of us "stew in silence" in the beginning. We communicate our needs, our wants and our desires but it falls on deaf ears. After a while of banging our heads against a wall, we just stop talking or caring. 
I was told that I was the one with the problems when I asked to go to MC. For years I would tell him how I hurt and how much his ignoring me is causing me pain. It didn't matter. I didn't matter. After years of that humiliation, you just stop trying and you bide your time. Waiting and yearning.


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## CLucas976

My marriage isn't probably long enough to compare. but I do know why I stayed as long as I did.

Fear/uncertainty were huge. I had lived with him since I was 18, had no car, no saved money, no where to go and a job I couldn't walk to. 

Depression/loyalty were another. This was the man I took vows to, the man I pledged the rest of my life to, I meant every word of it when I said it..I never ever pictured living without him. At the time I was so sunk into depression and self loathing that I couldn't force myself to get up for work let alone help myself enough to get out of there. Ultimately it was a friend who pushed me out.

Guilt was huge. His sister died in 2009. For our entire relationship she thanked me for being so good to her brother and told us how we were the only reason she believed love existed at all. I did not want to let her down, did not want to let his family down since they too praised me for my affect on their son and they did so much to help me out too. I felt trapped by their praise and generosity.

Religion. still to this day being thrown in my face is how I "turned my back on god" by leaving. I had been bashed in the face with "god" and "good christian wife" nonsense it just added to the guilt.

And finally Love. Up until the day I decided to leave I reminded my self an truly believed that my husband loved me. How could I leave someone who loved me enough to marry me? No matter of being put last, forgotten, put below drug use and parties none of that was enough to convince me otherwise until the day he told me to my face infront of his drug addict jobless friends that they mattered more than me. and at that point he was only coming home to smoke, snort, and drink because he couldn't do that at his parents house and not even letting me use the car to go to work.


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## southbound

turnera said:


> I'm sure you know by now that women suffer in silence. For years. They expect men to be as tuned in to the marriage as they are. When the men continue to travel in oblivion, satisfied (probably because the wife is doing 75% of the work), and the women try to get the husband to notice she's not happy, and they don't, the women stew in silence. Resenting. Growing angry. Going through all the stages of ending a relationship, in silence, with the man none the wiser. Until, when she's finally at the final stage - having NO feelings left for you (already gone past the sad, anger, resenting, etc. stages until there simply is no love left - and you finally notice what she's saying, it IS too late. You men then go through all the stages after she leaves; she's already been there. That's why you couldn't make it work - you didn't pay attention; you settled in and enjoyed the ride without worrying about her.


Does anyone here feel that the times, surroundings, etc., can influence a person's emotional needs? For example, I think both of my grandmothers, who passed away many years ago in their 90s, would think these "Love Languages" and "Walk away Wife" is a bunch of nonsense. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying that they would have.

They always talked positive about my grandfathers and it crushed them when they passed away. But their positive talks always centered around how they were hard workers and providers, and how they were morally, decent men. They seemed very fulfilled and happy with their lives.

To be honest, my mother is even this way. My parents never made a big deal out of anniversaries, birthdays, valentine's day, etc. I've heard my mother say several times that she thought things like that was nonsense. Yet, she was very happy with my dad because he was a good man and he worked hard for the family, and he was very handsome too. I've heard her say over the years that there wasn't a better man anywhere. 

Is it possible that having a hard working man in their day was emotionally fulfilling, whereas, that has changed with the times due to changes in our society and environment?


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## Therealbrighteyes

southbound said:


> Does anyone here feel that the times, surroundings, etc., can influence a person's emotional needs? For example, I think both of my grandmothers, who passed away many years ago in their 90s, would think these "Love Languages" and "Walk away Wife" is a bunch of nonsense. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying that they would have.
> 
> They always talked positive about my grandfathers and it crushed them when they passed away. But their positive talks always centered around how they were hard workers and providers, and how they were morally, decent men. They seemed very fulfilled and happy with their lives.
> 
> To be honest, my mother is even this way. My parents never made a big deal out of anniversaries, birthdays, valentine's day, etc. I've heard my mother say several times that she thought things like that was nonsense. Yet, she was very happy with my dad because he was a good man and he worked hard for the family, and he was very handsome too. I've heard her say over the years that there wasn't a better man anywhere.
> 
> Is it possible that having a hard working man in their day was emotionally fulfilling, whereas, that has changed with the times due to changes in our society and environment?


You are incredibly lucky that you have that legacy with your relatives. That's awesome!
Often times a woman stayed with her husband "back in the day" because she literally had no options to leave. Back then cheating was tolerated as long as it wasn't tossed in the wife's face and abuse was rampant. It was viewed as immoral to divorce over either of those situations. No "proper" woman divorced her husband and if she did, she was viewed as the problem.
Fast forward to today....many blame feminism for the high divorce rate. Perhaps that has some merit but I hesitate to put the blame solidly on that. I think that in this day and age when most women work full time jobs and are also largely responsible for the childcare, housework and cooking that they just see a husband who doesn't pull his share as being undesirable. Their needs aren't being met and in turn, they feel used and taken advantage of.
Granted, that's a pretty general synopsis but I see this happening all the time. Husband comes from mommy's house and wants a wife to take care of him. Wife works full time and sees her husband not pulling his fair share. She becomes resentful and angry and the rest is history.


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## greenpearl

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Fast forward to today....many blame feminism for the high divorce rate. Perhaps that has some merit but I hesitate to put the blame solidly on that. I think that in this day and age when most women work full time jobs and are also largely responsible for the childcare, housework and cooking that they just see a husband who doesn't pull his share as being undesirable. Their needs aren't being met and in turn, they feel used and taken advantage of.


My husband said that men have to change! 

I read an article about why a lot of women in China don't want to get married. The reasons are married women work all day, when they go home, they still have to be busy with their children, worry about house chores, have to deal with nasty in-laws, have to worry about their husbands' infidelity, after said all these, what's the good for women to get married there, what do they get from their marriage? Financial support? They make their own money! Emotional support? Where is it? 

Men have to understand that women today are different. It's not like old history, women couldn't go out and work. Now women can go out and work, job opportunities for women are plenty! Understand women's frustration if they are stay at home moms. They stay at home not because they want to, they stay at home because they love their children, it's a lot of sacrifice from them. I don't want to stay at home. If I have a choice, I would rather work! But if I have a child, I know I have to stay at home! Men should view that as a sacrifice for him and for the children. Men should understand their wives if they work, share house chores, share responsibilities related to children, share wives' frustration related to work. Men who understand the change and adapt to the change well get women's heart. Men have to understand women's sex art too! In history, men could just have whatever way they wanted, men were preaching that women should suppress their sexual needs! But women today are liberated, they want to enjoy activities in bed too!( I know there are still a lot of women who think sex is dirty, but I think majority of them are liberated!) Men can't just think about themselves, when they have sex, they have to find out what makes their wives happy in bed!


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## southbound

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You are incredibly lucky that you have that legacy with your relatives. That's awesome!
> Often times a woman stayed with her husband "back in the day" because she literally had no options to leave. Back then cheating was tolerated as long as it wasn't tossed in the wife's face and abuse was rampant. It was viewed as immoral to divorce over either of those situations. No "proper" woman divorced her husband and if she did, she was viewed as the problem.
> Fast forward to today....many blame feminism for the high divorce rate. Perhaps that has some merit but I hesitate to put the blame solidly on that. I think that in this day and age when most women work full time jobs and are also largely responsible for the childcare, housework and cooking that they just see a husband who doesn't pull his share as being undesirable. Their needs aren't being met and in turn, they feel used and taken advantage of.
> Granted, that's a pretty general synopsis but I see this happening all the time. Husband comes from mommy's house and wants a wife to take care of him. Wife works full time and sees her husband not pulling his fair share. She becomes resentful and angry and the rest is history.


I can see what you described as being a problem, but in my situation, that was not the case. That makes me feel like it's a "no win" situation; darned if you do, darned if you don't. I was certainly not looking for a woman to take care of me. I pulled more than my share of the housework, and I'd be willing to bet that I changed more dirty diapers than she did. If i ever needed a soda, I got up and got it myself, it didn't matter if she was standing in the kitchen at the time. 

In the entire time that we were married, she never once painted her toenails, I always did it because she loved attention to her feet. Sometimes I felt like I took care of her.

Discussion in another thread indicated that it may have been a "turn off" that i did so much work rather than a positive. So, it seems like a no win situation.

By the way, if it ever seems like I'm trying to argue or prove anyone here wrong, I assure you I'm not. I appreciate all the comments. I'm just trying to "learn" as much as I can, and the back-and-forth is very educational to me.


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## Therealbrighteyes

greenpearl said:


> My husband said that men have to change!
> 
> I read an article about why a lot of women in China don't want to get married. The reasons are married women work all day, when they go home, they still have to be busy with their children, worry about house chores, have to deal with nasty in-laws, have to worry about their husbands' infidelity, after said all these, what's the good for women to get married there, what do they get from their marriage? Financial support? They make their own money! Emotional support? Where is it?
> 
> Men have to understand that women today are different. It's not like old history, women couldn't go out and work. Now women can go out and work, job opportunities for women are plenty! Understand women's frustration if they are stay at home moms. They stay at home not because they want to, they stay at home because they love their children, it's a lot of sacrifice from them. I don't want to stay at home. If I have a choice, I would rather work! But if I have a child, I know I have to stay at home! Men should view that as a sacrifice for him and for the children. Men should understand their wives if they work, share house chores, share responsibilities related to children, share wives' frustration related to work. Men who understand the change and adapt to the change well get women's heart.


I 100% agree. I think most western men do get this but the onus is still largely on the woman. Home and children is the womans responsibility. I work full time and yet every Sunday when we clean the house my husband says how can I "help" you. I sucked it up for a while but finally told him that it isn't him helping me, it is US working together to clean the house. It isn't my responsibility to clean the house and him to "help". It is ours.
He realized that those words really ticked me off and since has never said that.


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## southbound

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I 100% agree. I think most western men do get this but the onus is still largely on the woman. Home and children is the womans responsibility. I work full time and yet every Sunday when we clean the house my husband says how can I "help" you. I sucked it up for a while but finally told him that it isn't him helping me, it is US working together to clean the house. It isn't my responsibility to clean the house and him to "help". It is ours.
> He realized that those words really ticked me off and since has never said that.


Just the opposite with me. As I passed by the sofa with a basket full of clean laundry, my x would occasionally ask if i needed help.


----------



## greenpearl

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I 100% agree. I think most western men do get this but the onus is still largely on the woman. Home and children is the womans responsibility. I work full time and yet every Sunday when we clean the house my husband says how can I "help" you. I sucked it up for a while but finally told him that it isn't him helping me, it is US working together to clean the house. It isn't my responsibility to clean the house and him to "help". It is ours.
> He realized that those words really ticked me off and since has never said that.


Exactly! 

I know that's true in western countries. 

Women who work have two jobs, one is her work, the other one is at home! Those women whose husbands don't help out at home are very stressed out! But I am sure that kind of marriage doesn't last!


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## Therealbrighteyes

Southbound,
I was responding to your post not to your actions.
I have read your posts and followed your struggles and all I have to say is your ex is an idiot. There isn't a woman on the planet that wouldn't want somebody as awesome as you.
Stop trying to change yourself. Stop worrying about what women want. Stay true to yourself and you will be fine. There is a fine woman out there and she will love you for who you are.


----------



## greenpearl

southbound said:


> Just the opposite with me. As I passed by the sofa with a basket full of clean laundry, my x would occasionally ask if i needed help.


Southbound,

If your wife wanted to check out, there must be a reason! 

You only remember the good things you did, but I am sure she only remembers the things you didn't do for her. 

And YES, some women like men who are more challenging, maybe your were not challenging enough for her!


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## greeneyeddolphin

Well, I can answer for my marriage and for my most recent hell - I mean, relationship. 

My marriage - we were married for 3 years, 1 month, 21 days when the divorce was final. I knew it was over probably 6 months in, if that long. He was a liar, cheater, and eventually was forcing himself on me in bed. I stayed as long as I did because of my kids. I felt I owed it to them to try to give them a whole family. I finally had enough the night that he shoved my into a wall when I was 6 months pregnant and holding my 2.5 yr old. 

My recent disaster of a relationship - we were together almost 2 years. He was mentally abusive, and I've just found out since the break up, cheating. I stayed as long as I did because I felt like I had no choice. I wasn't able to work, so I had no money. He kept me on the phone and tracked me through my phone's GPS, and I think even had mics and cameras in the house, so I felt like I couldn't talk to anyone or tell anyone, and without that ability, I couldn't make plans to get away. 

I finally left when he called me dumb again. I just snapped and decided I was done. I called my parents and they helped me get my and my kids stuff packed up in about 3-4 hours. 

I have learned my lesson now, though. I'm going to be much more cautious in the future, and I think I may start doing some background checks, too.


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## magnoliagal

southbound said:


> I just don't understand how much greener she thinks the grass can get. I don't think she will ever find someone who will fulfill all her needs.


I've read your story and beyond a shadow of a doubt know this had little to do with you. I won't bring the topics up again but really? Personally I think she did you a huge favor by leaving. You keep beating yourself up about how you somehow failed to meet her needs well I want to know what about YOUR needs? Everything I read about your story was it was all about her and the reason she got unhappy is when you quit doing all those lovely things she took for granted and didn't reciprocate.

You keep rewriting history. Go back and read some of your old posts and you will see what I see.


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## Therealbrighteyes

magnoliagal said:


> I've read your story and beyond a shadow of a doubt know this had little to do with you. I won't bring the topics up again but really? Personally I think she did you a huge favor by leaving. You keep beating yourself up about how you somehow failed to meet her needs well I want to know what about YOUR needs? Everything I read about your story was it was all about her and the reason she got unhappy is when you quit doing all those lovely things she took for granted and didn't reciprocate.
> 
> You keep rewriting history. Go back and read some of your old posts and you will see what I see.


F-ing word! She abused him in every sense of the word. 
I hope he finds a Mensa member supermodel/nymphomaniac who after finding the cure for cancer opens up her own high end bar in Key West with her fortune. She then asks him on bended knee to be her husband and he accepts. She hands him the keys to his new Ferrari and the license plates read I WON.


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## magnoliagal

Therealbrighteyes said:


> F-ing word! She abused him in every sense of the word.
> I hope he finds a Mensa member supermodel/nymphomaniac who after finding the cure for cancer opens up her own high end bar in Key West with her fortune. She then asks him on bended knee to be her husband and he accepts. She hands him the keys to his new Ferrari and the license plates read I WON.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:



:rofl: This made me laugh out loud seriously and here I thought I was going to get bashed for what I said. Walk-a-wife my ass. Selfish, entitled beotch is more fitting.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Wanted to add new supermodel wife needs to come out of some body of water wearing Bo Derrick's gold bathing suit complete with the braids and beads.
THEN she asks you to be her husband and hands you the keys to your new Ferrari.


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## southbound

greeneyeddolphin said:


> Well, I can answer for my marriage and for my most recent hell - I mean, relationship.
> 
> My marriage - we were married for 3 years, 1 month, 21 days when the divorce was final. I knew it was over probably 6 months in, if that long. He was a liar, cheater, and eventually was forcing himself on me in bed. I stayed as long as I did because of my kids. I felt I owed it to them to try to give them a whole family. I finally had enough the night that he shoved my into a wall when I was 6 months pregnant and holding my 2.5 yr old.
> 
> My recent disaster of a relationship - we were together almost 2 years. He was mentally abusive, and I've just found out since the break up, cheating. I stayed as long as I did because I felt like I had no choice. I wasn't able to work, so I had no money. He kept me on the phone and tracked me through my phone's GPS, and I think even had mics and cameras in the house, so I felt like I couldn't talk to anyone or tell anyone, and without that ability, I couldn't make plans to get away.
> 
> I finally left when he called me dumb again. I just snapped and decided I was done. I called my parents and they helped me get my and my kids stuff packed up in about 3-4 hours.
> 
> I have learned my lesson now, though. I'm going to be much more cautious in the future, and I think I may start doing some background checks, too.


greeneyeddolphin, now yours is a situation that leaves me with no puzzles or questions as to why you left. I would have helped you pack. 

Therealbrighteyes and magnoliagal, thanks for the uplifting comments! If I get a supermodel with a Ferrari, I'll post a picture!:smthumbup:


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## Therealbrighteyes

southbound said:


> greeneyeddolphin, now yours is a situation that leaves me with no puzzles or questions as to why you left. I would have helped you pack.
> 
> Therealbrighteyes and magnoliagal, thanks for the uplifting comments! If I get a supermodel with a Ferrari, I'll post a picture!:smthumbup:


You will get the woman of your dreams. Don't EVER settle for less. You really are amazing....do you know that? :scratchhead:


----------



## Halien

southbound said:


> I just don't understand how much greener she thinks the grass can get. I don't think she will ever find someone who will fulfill all her needs.


You are trying to understand something that just might not be possible to understand for a normal, healthy person. The more you expect it the make sense why she did what she did, the crazier it drives you. 

Southbound, one of the most emotionally traumatic parts of my own marriage is trying to see some sort of rationalistic trends in my own wife's thinking in the area that is impacted by her bipolar disorder. I'm not talking about what she says or how she acts on a day to day basis, but the thoughts that drive her to respond emotionally, and hurfully. Consider that we all have varying degrees of these types of disorders within us. You just may never know.

My wife was diagnosed as bipolar, but without positive mania. I would think things were going great, and she would act like we were incredibly close, but then it was like a light switch was turned off. She once equated it to an inner voice that told her that I didn't really love her. She knew it was not normal, so she would hide it until it finally busted out. 

Other people who ultimately turn away from the marriage just start doubting themselves, and then their relationship. These doubts take on life and become irrational.

What I'm saying is that there could be no rational way to explain your wife's behavior. Not that I'm suggesting that she's bipolar, but only that her thinking was entirely different than before, given your past. It goes against everything she ever said to you before. If you realize that their were small giveaway behaviors earlier, where she suddenly treated you out of context to what was going on in the relationship, then its possible that this just built up over time. Otherwise, it could be a fog, of sorts, more like what happens with the walk away wife, or just driven by doubts that run out of control.

Last week, our marriage counselor told me that I probably felt like I owned my wife's depression, and her discontent with our marriage when she felt like a good husband should've made her happy. I'll tell you what she told me: You just have to believe in yourself and believe that you deserve a happy future. In most ways, you loved her in a way that allowed you to look at yourself in the mirror without guilt. When you learned of a problem in the marriage, you worked on it. It's time to release the guilt and self-analysis.


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## turnera

southbound said:


> Just the opposite with me. As I passed by the sofa with a basket full of clean laundry, my x would occasionally ask if i needed help.


I just drop it on the couch and say 'hey, you wouldn't mind folding these, would you?' What's he gonna say? I'm too busy watching tv?


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## magnoliagal

Oh and I'm secretly happy that your X is in a pissy mood these days. Karma's a *****.


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## Jellybeans

greeneyeddolphin said:


> He kept me on the phone and tracked me through my phone's GPS, and I think even had mics and cameras in the house


Omg. Craaazy! Be so glad you got away from him!


----------



## Runs like Dog

turnera said:


> I'm sure you know by now that women suffer in silence. For years.


No, there is no such animal. Unless 'in silence' means an endless stream of complaints, nagging, correction, muttering, abusive psychotic tirades, threats and cruelty. 

I am starting to come to the realization that women are their own worst enemies almost 100% of the time. They just want to be miserable and to make everyone around them as miserable as they are if only for the thrill of looking around and feeling even more sorry for themselves than they were before. 

Women who stay at least are doing the rest of the world a favor by not destroying anyone else's life.


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## Prodigal

southbound said:


> This is probably just the "logical male mind" in me, but even though the "stewing in silence" is apparently a normal female reaction, is it really productive?


I'm not debating the merits as to whether or not "stewing in silence" is productive; either in my original post or here. I'm just telling you that I was sitting around a table with a group of men last night, and the consensus of the men (all married) was that it's the status quo.

Women will stew. Men don't want to rock the boat, even if the status quo isn't particulary wonderful. (That from one of my male friends.) Frequently, women clam up after they feel they're not heard. Same for men.

Whether productive or not, it is frequently human nature to do so, regardless of one's sex.

If you don't believe me, just read a some of the posts on these boards. Many boil down to communication breakdowns, one party refusing to speak to the other party, one suddenly leaving, blah, blah, blah, etc.

We could analyze it, re-analyze it, read something into it, hash it over some more; it boils down to human nature is what it is. And from what I read in the news everyday, it doesn't appear it's moving in the direction of becoming more productive.


----------



## southbound

Prodigal said:


> I'm not debating the merits as to whether or not "stewing in silence" is productive; either in my original post or here. I'm just telling you that I was sitting around a table with a group of men last night, and the consensus of the men (all married) was that it's the status quo.
> 
> Women will stew. Men don't want to rock the boat, even if the status quo isn't particulary wonderful. (That from one of my male friends.) Frequently, women clam up after they feel they're not heard. Same for men.
> 
> Whether productive or not, it is frequently human nature to do so, regardless of one's sex.
> 
> If you don't believe me, just read a some of the posts on these boards. Many boil down to communication breakdowns, one party refusing to speak to the other party, one suddenly leaving, blah, blah, blah, etc.
> 
> We could analyze it, re-analyze it, read something into it, hash it over some more; it boils down to human nature is what it is. And from what I read in the news everyday, it doesn't appear it's moving in the direction of becoming more productive.


Oh, I believe you. I'm not directing any negativity at you, I'm just saying, if this is the norm and people can see how it is not productive, perhaps they should stop it, but I guess that would make relationships less complicated, and we wouldn't want that.


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## southbound

turnera said:


> I'm sure you know by now that women suffer in silence. For years. They expect men to be as tuned in to the marriage as they are. When the men continue to travel in oblivion, satisfied (probably because the wife is doing 75% of the work), and the women try to get the husband to notice she's not happy, and they don't, the women stew in silence. Resenting. Growing angry. Going through all the stages of ending a relationship, in silence, with the man none the wiser. Until, when she's finally at the final stage - having NO feelings left for you (already gone past the sad, anger, resenting, etc. stages until there simply is no love left - and you finally notice what she's saying, it IS too late. You men then go through all the stages after she leaves; she's already been there. That's why you couldn't make it work - you didn't pay attention; you settled in and enjoyed the ride without worrying about her.


I wonder also, when women go through this, what if everything else in their life is good, is it worth just throwing all that away?

Aside from the positive things I did in our marriage, my x gave up a lot of friends, her church, and having her kids around all the time. Minor things are now a big stress for her too, such as car trouble, house problems, etc. Was it really not worth one more try? Can a guy really be that bad that it's worth giving all that up?

Do people just assume that divorce will "fix" the problem because they will easily find someone new who will fulfill all their needs?


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## SimplyAmorous

southbound said:


> Do people just assume that divorce will "fix" the problem because they will easily find someone new who will fulfill all their needs?


I am just guessing of coarse, but I would think this IS what she was thinking but ......she is deluding herself if she feels the next guy is going to have a walk in the park dealing with her passive aggressive behavior , and oversensitivity. 

It is very unlikely she is going to be a changed woman -just cause it is a new man! If a person is not "sound" to begin with in themselves, they will inevitaby cause much drama to anyone they attach themselves too. 

It would be real interesting if you ever run into some of these ex boyfriends of hers in the future & you all have a heart to heart.


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## southbound

SimplyAmorous said:


> It would be real interesting if you ever run into some of these ex boyfriends of hers in the future & you all have a heart to heart.


Yes it would. It will be interesting to see how her happiness plays out in the future.


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## magnoliagal

southbound said:


> Do people just assume that divorce will "fix" the problem?


Yes and notice I shortened your question. People everywhere think a quick fix is the answer to everything. It's so very typical. Had I gone that route I'd be divorced too. I believe it's easier to fix the problem with the one you're with than to go start another new relationship that is barring some kind of abuse or infidelity. I'm talking your typical communication breakdown kinda thing.


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## turnera

Yes, they do. Many people hook onto an idea, and it solidifies in their mind, to the point that there simply is no other solution. They stop thinking logically about it, shut down all arguments. Then again, many people don't.

Truth is, the only one who can tell you what she was thinking is her.


----------



## southbound

magnoliagal said:


> Yes and notice I shortened your question. People everywhere think a quick fix is the answer to everything. It's so very typical. Had I gone that route I'd be divorced too. I believe it's easier to fix the problem with the one you're with than to go start another new relationship that is barring some kind of abuse or infidelity. I'm talking your typical communication breakdown kinda thing.


Interesting that you could have gone that route but chose not to. I've often wondered what made the difference in our divorce. In other words, was I really so bad that I would have driven "any" woman to divorce? I didn't assume our communication breakdown was worse than any other married couple, or was it? Did I go just beyond where other men go to the point it drove her crazy?

Then again, how does she compare to other women? Was she just allowing herself to think our problems were unable to be fixed, whereas most women would have chosen to try to work on it? Was her thinking just different than most other women? Was her emotional needs different? 

I realize nobody can answer these questions, it's just things I have wondered about.


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## turnera

It's normal to wonder, but why are all your thoughts and questions about what YOU did wrong? I don't see you spending much time questioning what SHE did wrong.


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## magnoliagal

Southbound in my marriage I've had specifically two times where I contemplated leaving. Once at year 7 and again at year 19 (a year ago). Both times had been building for a while before I got to that point.

I'm not like most women in that I'm a thinker and I analyze everything. I have this ability to think about the consequences of my actions into the future. I thought about co-parenting my young kids, having to get a ft job, dating again, the thought of my husband with another woman <shudder>, all of it. I played out the details of my life as a divorced woman and I came to the conclusion that leaving was harder than the effort that I'd have to put forth to fix my marriage.

I still say you married a selfish woman. Selfish people aren't likely to want to work on anything. They run in a feeble attempt to find someone else to use. Fixing a marriage requires true giving and your wife is incapable of that. The only reason your marriage lasted as long as it did is because you catered to her. She got everything she wanted and her world was just peachy. But then that changed and she didn't like it. She likely left just to punish you for not continuing to kiss her ass. Furthermore a woman like that *may* have married for all the wrong reasons. So the glue of love was never there. Don't underestimate the power of a selfish woman picking a husband just because he's a good provider and will do her biding on command.

What happened to you was you were likely in denial that any of this was going on. You played your part well as she dictated and things "seemed" happy but they weren't. You weren't happy you just deluded yourself into thinking you were. Yes I love the beach and board games. Not. You were brainwashed. Then one day you woke up and decided you were sick of all of it and you quit doing it. That's when she started planning her exit strategy. She didn't want a husband she wanted a doormat. You truly are better off you just don't know it yet.


----------



## turnera

I think that, given the woman you married, she destroyed your self esteem. That happens when you unwittingly marry a User; they keep making you feel like YOU are the problem, to keep you on your toes. Otherwise, you'd start complaining.

Anyway, because of that, you're having trouble seeing your own worth and are too quick to blame it all on yourself, when you should be (1) getting therapy to restore your self esteem and (2) taking a good hard look at what she actually gave you in your marriage. Question THAT.


----------



## Prodigal

turnera said:


> you're having trouble seeing your own worth and are too quick to blame it all on yourself, when you should be (1) getting therapy to restore your self esteem and (2) taking a good hard look at what she actually gave you in your marriage. Question THAT.


Thank you, turnera. It seems that southbound is focused way too much on figuring out why his ex left. Nobody is a mind-reader. People do things that will never make sense. She's gone. The marriage is over. 

And, yes, southbound - it would be absolutely marvelous if people would be straighforward so relationships would be less complicated. BTW, your sarcasm was not lost on me ...

If relationships were less complicated, these boards would have no need to be in existence, you wouldn't be posting, and life would be just great. It's not the way the world works, unfortunately.


----------



## southbound

turnera said:


> It's normal to wonder, but why are all your thoughts and questions about what YOU did wrong? I don't see you spending much time questioning what SHE did wrong.


I do think about what she did wrong, I just don't see that either of us did wrong enough to constitute a divorce. I can't deny the things she said I did. I did slack in communication, I did stop wanting to do things she wanted to do, etc. I just didn't see those things as deal breakers or things that couldn't be fixed. 




turnera said:


> I think that, given the woman you married, she destroyed your self esteem. That happens when you unwittingly marry a User; they keep making you feel like YOU are the problem, to keep you on your toes. Otherwise, you'd start complaining.
> 
> Anyway, because of that, you're having trouble seeing your own worth and are too quick to blame it all on yourself, when you should be (1) getting therapy to restore your self esteem and (2) taking a good hard look at what she actually gave you in your marriage. Question THAT.




Looking back, I do think she was a user. 




magnoliagal said:


> Southbound in my marriage I've had specifically two times where I contemplated leaving. Once at year 7 and again at year 19 (a year ago). Both times had been building for a while before I got to that point.
> 
> I'm not like most women in that I'm a thinker and I analyze everything. I have this ability to think about the consequences of my actions into the future. I thought about co-parenting my young kids, having to get a ft job, dating again, the thought of my husband with another woman <shudder>, all of it. I played out the details of my life as a divorced woman and I came to the conclusion that leaving was harder than the effort that I'd have to put forth to fix my marriage.
> 
> I still say you married a selfish woman. Selfish people aren't likely to want to work on anything. They run in a feeble attempt to find someone else to use. Fixing a marriage requires true giving and your wife is incapable of that. The only reason your marriage lasted as long as it did is because you catered to her. She got everything she wanted and her world was just peachy. But then that changed and she didn't like it. She likely left just to punish you for not continuing to kiss her ass. Furthermore a woman like that *may* have married for all the wrong reasons. So the glue of love was never there. Don't underestimate the power of a selfish woman picking a husband just because he's a good provider and will do her biding on command..


Did you feel like you no longer loved your husband either time, or was it an issues thing? I saw that as the difference with her. Some people have issues, whether it be financial, drinking, etc., yet the wife says she still loves him, which allows for things to be worked out. My wife said she had lost all feelings for me; therefore, it didn't matter about anything else, she was done. At that point, it wouldn't have mattered if I had agreed to play board games daily with a smile on and go to the beach multiple times every year, she was done.


----------



## magnoliagal

southbound said:


> Did you feel like you no longer loved your husband either time, or was it an issues thing? I saw that as the difference with her. Some people have issues, whether it be financial, drinking, etc., yet the wife says she still loves him, which allows for things to be worked out. My wife said she had lost all feelings for me; therefore, it didn't matter about anything else, she was done. At that point, it wouldn't have mattered if I had agreed to play board games daily with a smile on and go to the beach multiple times every year, she was done.


Okay and I'm being honest here. I was a user and I was selfish just like your wife is. If not for my high drive I would have absolutely lost feelings for him. Sex was the only thing that I liked about him. Seriously and this goes back to day 1. I never loved him I only loved what he had to offer. I made my own money so I didn't care how much he provided. I was cold so I didn't care about any emotional connection. We had great chemistry and so I said (as a user would) sign me up. I thought I could just have a built in lover that also shared the bills and not have to give anything back (that's the definition of a user btw). 

Your wife is a user end of story. She had no real feelings for you. It was all about what YOU had to offer. Once that was no longer there she left. You can sugarcoat it all you want but this is in fact what happened.

BTW: I do now love my husband but it has taken LOTS of therapy to get me there. I'm a reformed user.


----------



## turnera

I was just going to say that. A User stays with her/his partner _only so long as they get what they want out of the relationship._ As soon as the Giver stops giving enough or the right 'stuff,' they move on for a better sucker.


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## turnera

I knew a woman once in her mid 20s, who told me that she helped her husband with the yardwork, like I do. I said, oh, which chores do YOU do? She laughed and said, 'Oh, I don't do the WORK; I bring my lawn chair out and get a magazine and a drink, and sit on the driveway and read, so he can see me while he gets it done.'

THAT is a User.


----------



## magnoliagal

turnera said:


> I was just going to say that. A User stays with her/his partner _only so long as they get what they want out of the relationship._ As soon as the Giver stops giving enough or the right 'stuff,' they move on for a better sucker.


And sadly this is why so many nice guys fall into this trap. They keep giving thinking that someday it will eventually be reciprocated not realizing they're really being taken advantage of. I'm further convinced that takers tend to marry givers. And in most cases it's up to the givers to take a stand to stop giving when the resentment starts. It's rare for takers to quit on their own.


----------



## southbound

Being that she was a user, I don't suppose it would have mattered what I did. I suppose she would have left at some point; if not 18 years, perhaps 20, 30. I suppose the reason i seem down on myself at times is because I think, "Could saving my marriage really have been that simple?" If I had just tuned in to her and communicated more, done things that she wanted, like board games and the beach, not made such a big deal out of sex, etc., would my kids be living with both of us today and getting a kiss from both mom and dad as they head off to school?


----------



## greeneyeddolphin

Jellybeans said:


> Omg. Craaazy! Be so glad you got away from him!


Oh, believe me, I am! I've found out that since I left him, he's gone totally off the rails. I don't know if it was me leaving him that made him lose it or if that was coming anyway, but I'm so glad I'm no longer dealing with him.


----------



## Prodigal

southbound said:


> Being that she was a user, I don't suppose it would have mattered what I did.


Unfortunately, this is probably quite true. It is sad that she didn't see the good in you, because all of us have both good and bad. It sounds like you had your faults, just like any other person, but you still got a raw deal.



southbound said:


> If I had just tuned in to her and communicated more, done things that she wanted, like board games and the beach, not made such a big deal out of sex, etc., would my kids be living with both of us today and getting a kiss from both mom and dad as they head off to school?


I don't know, but I wish I could give you an answer. JMO, but I think it's not exactly answers you need. I think you need to grieve the loss. It sounds like you love/loved her very much. It can take a long time to grieve the loss of someone we love. During that time, we frequently try to intellectualize the relationship, question it, pull it apart and examine it ... whatever it takes to make sense of it. The thing we humans often avoid by pursuing the answers to often unanswerable questions is that what we really need to experience is deep down gut-wrenching, falling on the floor, crying until we gag, type of grief.

Maybe, someday, you'll get the response you need from your wife, a family member, or a good friend. I don't know. My husband chose a bottle of cheap booze over me; can't say that I'll ever understand it, but I finally just quit trying to figure it out. And then I cried a lot.


----------



## heartsbeating

southbound said:


> "Could saving my marriage really have been that simple?" If I had just tuned in to her and communicated more, done things that she wanted, like board games and the beach, not made such a big deal out of sex, etc., would my kids be living with both of us today and getting a kiss from both mom and dad as they head off to school?


No, because if it wasn't those things - it would have been something else you hadn't done right. She had responsibility in this too. It wasn't all on you to change and fix and save. 

At some point, you'll need to be thankful for the good years you did have with her and then move on but first let yourself grieve. I'm all for growth and understanding but if you keep beating yourself up over these things, you're just going to end up in a place of low self-esteem, self-doubt, and unhappiness. It's over. Try to focus on your well being right now, if not for your own sake, for the sake of your children.


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## sammy3

I have never found marriage to be so difficult in 28 years as I have on this site! Maybe that is why I am here now...

~sammy


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## turnera

southbound said:


> Being that she was a user, I don't suppose it would have mattered what I did. I suppose she would have left at some point; if not 18 years, perhaps 20, 30. I suppose the reason i seem down on myself at times is because I think, "Could saving my marriage really have been that simple?" If I had just tuned in to her and communicated more, done things that she wanted, like board games and the beach, not made such a big deal out of sex, etc., would my kids be living with both of us today and getting a kiss from both mom and dad as they head off to school?


 If you had done that, you would be no better than an abuse victim - totally submissive, no life of your own, no thoughts of your own, totally demoralized and shamed. And your kids would have grown up to be just like you - a victim - or a User like her. Now, you have a chance to teach them a better life.


----------



## magnoliagal

turnera said:


> If you had done that, you would be no better than an abuse victim - totally submissive, no life of your own, no thoughts of your own, totally demoralized and shamed. And your kids would have grown up to be just like you - a victim - or a User like her. Now, you have a chance to teach them a better life.


Great post and well said. My dad was the user and my mom the submissive victim. Sadly the same dynamic existed in my husband's parents too. Where do you think we both learned what we did about relationships?


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## southbound

Prodigal said:


> Thank you, turnera. It seems that southbound is focused way too much on figuring out why his ex left. Nobody is a mind-reader. People do things that will never make sense. She's gone. The marriage is over.
> 
> And, yes, southbound - it would be absolutely marvelous if people would be straighforward so relationships would be less complicated. BTW, your sarcasm was not lost on me ...
> 
> If relationships were less complicated, these boards would have no need to be in existence, you wouldn't be posting, and life would be just great. It's not the way the world works, unfortunately.


As I've said before, I think relationships are way more complicated than necessary. I thought I had the most most uncomplicated relationship in the world, but apparently had one of the most complicated. 

Now that I'm divorced, i don't know if I ever want to play the relationship game again. I'm just not a game person. Now when I wake up every morning, I don't have to worry about what game I'll play today.


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## magnoliagal

It's not about playing a game its about being aware. Now that I know what I know I don't wake up everyday worrying about what game I have to play. I simply put forth effort into my marriage daily. Awareness comes in simply when I have a negative feeling towards my husband. I deal with it right then instead of letting those feelings build. Practice that enough and it becomes second nature. It's really quite simple once you understand how relationships work.

For years you suffered in silence and that was a mistake. Had you spoken up sooner you would have known you married a user.


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## COGypsy

southbound said:


> As I've said before, I think relationships are way more complicated than necessary. I thought I had the most most uncomplicated relationship in the world, but apparently had one of the most complicated.
> 
> Now that I'm divorced, i don't know if I ever want to play the relationship game again. I'm just not a game person. Now when I wake up every morning, I don't have to worry about what game I'll play today.


You had the most uncomplicated relationship in the world as long as your ex was getting everything her way...whatever that way might be. Once her wants or your willingness to blindly follow (whichever, or both) changed, it was still uncomplicated, really. Her way or no way. 

Unfortunately, she didn't come with a sign on her forehead or a manual and her packing instructions were in Swahili. And apparently there were a few screws missing. Your whole set of Allen wrenches can't make that solid if the screws just aren't there.

It wasn't ever a game, it was a part of her nature that didn't reveal itself until way too late. Sure, maybe you got too comfortable with things or got stuck on cruise control, but in the end she is the way she is. Now you've seen what that looks like and if and when you get back in the pool, you'll know what not to look for and be able to make a better choice.


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## southbound

magnoliagal said:


> It's really quite simple once you understand how relationships work.


 One couldn't prove that statement by being on this forum. Apparently there are a lot of people in the world who don't "understand" relationships. I don't think a lot of people understand themselves, so how is anyone else supposed to.


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## COGypsy

southbound said:


> One couldn't prove that statement by being on this forum. Apparently there are a lot of people in the world who don't "understand" relationships. I don't think a lot of people understand themselves, so how is anyone else supposed to.


I think that a lot of people don't understand that communication and relating to other people is a skill like any other. We just jump into life with other people and wade through it. 

Some do fine naturally. Some do fine luckily. Some learn and do the work through one circumstance or another. But it's really not an inherent "understanding" that humans just have. The people who learn about relationships understand them. The people who learn about themselves understand themselves. It's a process.

In my opinion, anyway. But that's after a couple of years of teaching communication skills to teenagers and God knows how many years of therapy


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## magnoliagal

southbound said:


> One couldn't prove that statement by being on this forum. Apparently there are a lot of people in the world who don't "understand" relationships. I don't think a lot of people understand themselves, so how is anyone else supposed to.


I've been at this for 12 years (therapy, reading every self help book I could get my hands on, soul searching, the works). And you make a very good point. Understanding yourself is the cornerstone to a good relationship. If you don't know who you are then how on earth could you possibly understand someone else? For me this experience has been surreal. I just woke up one day and "got it". It all made sense. I can now see things that I never was even aware of before.

Like with you. You are so caught up in trying to figure out what you did wrong in your marriage that you can't possibly fathom that you chose a user. You rocked along for 18 years oblivous to that fact. You weren't happy but you stuffed those feelings and tried to convince yourself that all was good. If anything you need to find out why you think your needs are less than anyone else's. Getting "it" for you means understanding that you are worthy, you have rights, you get to choose, you can love, you are free. Master that and your future relationships will be uncomplicated.


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## turnera

People may not understand relationships, but they sure as hell can EDUCATE themselves about them. Lord knows there are enough books out there. Starting with some of the more accepted ones like His Needs Her Needs is a great way to ensure you do it right the next time.


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## southbound

COGypsy said:


> I think that a lot of people don't understand that communication and relating to other people is a skill like any other. We just jump into life with other people and wade through it.
> 
> Some do fine naturally. Some do fine luckily. Some learn and do the work through one circumstance or another. But it's really not an inherent "understanding" that humans just have. The people who learn about relationships understand them. The people who learn about themselves understand themselves. It's a process.
> 
> In my opinion, anyway. But that's after a couple of years of teaching communication skills to teenagers and God knows how many years of therapy


It felt like things were happening "naturally" during my marriage. It seemed like things were going great and she acted the same. Then after 18 years, POW! She's unhappy and apparently has been for several years. 

I suppose I came from a family where everything happened naturally. We lived life with what I thought was a common sense approach and we all got along. I'm 43 and I haven't had any major quarrels with my parents or sibling in my entire adult life. My way of looking at that is that 95% of stuff that people argue about doesn't amount to a hill of beans, so why act as though it does. Say what you mean, mean what you say, and enjoy life. Life is too short to be upset about something all the time or to be playing some kind of emotional game. 

I work closely with a woman at my work. We were evaluated this year and my boss told me that he had never seen two people get along so well if they worked in a room the size of a gym, let alone a room our size. I said that I didn't know what to say other than there is just never anything to argue about. 

It seems like I have done well in the other relationships in my life naturally. It appeared that was the way it was going in my marriage until it all went south one day. I work in an instructional capacity with other people and I'm always getting compliments about how well I work with them and how it must just be my gift to work with those people, yet, my marriage went belly up.


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## turnera

And...the reason is...?

Do you see it yet? The one odd man out in all this is your wife. YOU are good in all your other relationships because you have your crap together. But the ONE relationship with HER went belly up not becaues of YOU but because of her. Make sense?


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## magnoliagal

southbound said:


> It felt like things were happening "naturally" during my marriage. It seemed like things were going great and she acted the same. Then after 18 years, POW! She's unhappy and apparently has been for several years.


Again you focus on her. Were you truly happy with the vacations with her family? Were you truly happy with the weekly board games with her family? Really?

Nothing happens "naturally" and things were not so great. You just didn't see it.

I get you are an easy to get along with guy. I know the type as I'm married to one. You put your needs below everyone else's which is why you play well with others. But this is not always such a good thing. Can't you see that?

BTW: Feel free to tell me to shut up. Most people don't like what I have to say anyway.  I'm just trying to help.


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## turnera

I agree with magnolia. Most people who are so easy to get along with really have no clue who they are or what they want. They've spent so long NOT getting upset or caring if their needs go unmet that they can't recognize themselves.


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## southbound

magnoliagal said:


> Like with you. You are so caught up in trying to figure out what you did wrong in your marriage that you can't possibly fathom that you chose a user. You rocked along for 18 years oblivous to that fact.


I think I can fathom at this point that she was a user. I'm not sure if she even knew it, but I can see that now. 



magnoliagal said:


> Again you focus on her. Were you truly happy with the vacations with her family? Were you truly happy with the weekly board games with her family? Really?
> 
> Nothing happens "naturally" and things were not so great. You just didn't see it.
> 
> I get you are an easy to get along with guy. I know the type as I'm married to one. You put your needs below everyone else's which is why you play well with others. But this is not always such a good thing. Can't you see that?
> 
> BTW: Feel free to tell me to shut up. Most people don't like what I have to say anyway.  I'm just trying to help.


No, don't shut up. I'll take all the comments I can get. As far as me not being happy, I wasn't satisfied with some things, sex mostly, but overall, I was happy. I guess I'm from the old school and have the "things could be a lot worse" mentality. I know everything isn't going to be served to me on a silver platter in life. I actually thing that mentality makes me happier. I know some people who spend their entire lives with things never being "good enough". Sure, I may not have liked the vacations, drama, and board games, but compared to the cheating, abuse, drug addictions, mental disorders, and other things I read about here, I was living in paradise. 



turnera said:


> And...the reason is...?
> 
> Do you see it yet? The one odd man out in all this is your wife. YOU are good in all your other relationships because you have your crap together. But the ONE relationship with HER went belly up not becaues of YOU but because of her. Make sense?


Good point!




turnera said:


> I agree with magnolia. Most people who are so easy to get along with really have no clue who they are or what they want. They've spent so long NOT getting upset or caring if their needs go unmet that they can't recognize themselves.



I don't feel this is the case with me, although I can see it being with some people that are easy going. I am easy going, but I'm not a push over. I had a person tell me a few years ago that he wished he had my personality. He said that I never seemed to get into it with anybody, yet nobody ever messed with me either. When I thought about it, I guess he was right.


----------



## southbound

turnera said:


> And...the reason is...?
> 
> Do you see it yet? The one odd man out in all this is your wife. YOU are good in all your other relationships because you have your crap together. But the ONE relationship with HER went belly up not becaues of YOU but because of her. Make sense?


After giving it some thought, you make a really good point. My x has had a lot of relationship trouble over the years. She had a cousin who was a best friend that she had a falling out with before we married. Then she had a best friend at work that she had issues with. These were situations where things were "never the same." She had issues with her parents a few years ago to the point of minimal contact. (I won't go into detail, but it was serious issues and I agreed with her on it.) Now that we are apart, she's licking their butts again like nothing ever happened. So, she has always had trouble with relationships.

She also comes from a family of 6 children. Including her, 4 have been divorced, and one is so messed up he's never been married.


----------



## Runs like Dog

So we had a little dust up yesterday. A medical EOB came in the mail for some labwork I had done and the charges ran into the multiple thousands of dollars. It was poorly worded and in fact there was zero dollars I was liable for. But I had to go down to the MD's office and get to the root of why these charges were 10x normal. So that took about a day. When I 'reported back' the wife was all weepy and such. Not about the charges, mind you but in her mind she concluded that with all these new and absurdly expensive tests there must be something horribly wrong and I might be dying. Which in and of itself bothered her less than the prospect of being left w/o a check coming in. I think I'm going to call her "Lucille Bluth" from now on.


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## magnoliagal

southbound said:


> After giving it some thought, you make a really good point. My x has had a lot of relationship trouble over the years. She had a cousin who was a best friend that she had a falling out with before we married. Then she had a best friend at work that she had issues with. These were situations where things were "never the same." She had issues with her parents a few years ago to the point of minimal contact. (I won't go into detail, but it was serious issues and I agreed with her on it.) Now that we are apart, she's licking their butts again like nothing ever happened. So, she has always had trouble with relationships.
> 
> She also comes from a family of 6 children. Including her, 4 have been divorced, and one is so messed up he's never been married.


Ah there you go. This explains everything to me. Again it's not you.


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## southbound

It seems that i know what a "users" reaction to this was. What would a have been a typical reaction from a woman who was not a "user.?" Would the things my x listed have been petty to them and they would have easily been willing to work it out?


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## turnera

Like what?


----------



## Jellybeans

turnera said:


> I was just going to say that. A User stays with her/his partner _only so long as they get what they want out of the relationship._ As soon as the Giver stops giving enough or the right 'stuff,' they move on for a better sucker.





heartsbreaking said:


> No, because if it wasn't those things - it would have been something else you hadn't done right. She had responsibility in this too. It wasn't all on you to change and fix and save.
> 
> At some point, you'll need to be thankful for the good years you did have with her and then move on but first let yourself grieve. I'm all for growth and understanding but if you keep beating yourself up over these things, you're just going to end up in a place of low self-esteem, self-doubt, and unhappiness. It's over. Try to focus on your well being right now, if not for your own sake, for the sake of your children.





magnoliagal said:


> I still say you married a selfish woman. Selfish people aren't likely to want to work on anything. They run in a feeble attempt to find someone else to use. Fixing a marriage requires true giving and your wife is incapable of that. The only reason your marriage lasted as long as it did is because you catered to her. She got everything she wanted and her world was just peachy. But then that changed and she didn't like it. She likely left just to punish you for not continuing to kiss her ass. Furthermore a woman like that *may* have married for all the wrong reasons. So the glue of love was never there.
> 
> What happened to you was you were likely in denial that any of this was going on. You played your part well as she dictated and things "seemed" happy but they weren't. You weren't happy you just deluded yourself into thinking you were. Yes I love the beach and board games. Not. You were brainwashed. Then one day you woke up and decided you were sick of all of it and you quit doing it. That's when she started planning her exit strategy. She didn't want a husband she wanted a doormat. You truly are better off you just don't know it yet.


All greats posts and spot on!


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## southbound

Thanks everyone for all the support. I suppose I seem to blame myself a lot sometimes and probably ask the same old questions over and over with just a different wording, but I just try to be totally honest about my actions. After all, people only know each other here according to what is written. As my x said, if you actually had to "live with me," you might see me differently. Who knows. If I ever have another relationship, I don't want to enter it thinking I am Mr. Wonderful with no changes needed, and then have it fall apart because of my same 'ol actions. I will have to say that I have absorbed and learned a lot since coming here.


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## magnoliagal

Look I've readily admitted I was like your wife (selfish person who also came from a dysfunctional family) and I married a nice, easy to get along with, working man like yourself. In retrospect I can honestly say without hesitation he is/was Mr. Wonderful and I was 95% at fault for ALL our marital problems. My therapist would get mad if she heard me take ALL the blame so I'll say 5% is on him because he should have spoken up sooner.


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## turnera

southbound said:


> It seems that i know what a "users" reaction to this was. What would a have been a typical reaction from a woman who was not a "user.?" Would the things my x listed have been petty to them and they would have easily been willing to work it out?


 What reactions did she have? Reactions to what?


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## southbound

turnera said:


> What reactions did she have? Reactions to what?



I mean the "divorce" reaction to me apparently not giving her what she wanted, like playing games with family, getting excited about vacations with her family, wanting sex more often, and those things. 

I assume if she loved me deep down for who I was and was not a user, she would have been more willing to have worked on the marriage rather than divorce.


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## sammy3

QUOTE > Sure, I may not have liked the vacations, drama, and board games, but compared to the cheating, abuse, drug addictions, mental disorders, and other things I read about here, I was living in paradise. <UNQUOTE


Yeah , sometimes Paradise isn't all it's crack up to be , Huh? 

~sammy


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## turnera

southbound said:


> I mean the "divorce" reaction to me apparently not giving her what she wanted, like playing games with family, getting excited about vacations with her family, wanting sex more often, and those things.
> 
> I assume if she loved me deep down for who I was and was not a user, she would have been more willing to have worked on the marriage rather than divorce.


That depends on how happy she's been all along. Are you absolutely sure you were the ideal husband, that she never grew any resentments, that you two always had great communication? It's just as likely that this marriage just didn't do it for her any more. And even a NON-User wife would still get up and leave if you had been leaving her short-changed over time.


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## southbound

turnera said:


> That depends on how happy she's been all along. Are you absolutely sure you were the ideal husband, that she never grew any resentments, that you two always had great communication? It's just as likely that this marriage just didn't do it for her any more. And even a NON-User wife would still get up and leave if you had been leaving her short-changed over time.


I'm sure that's the way she looked at it.


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## katc

I stay because I can't afford to leave and if I did, I would lose an investment. I bought the home we live in with money I had saved while a single parent - if I leave, I would lose that and that is money for my son - not my husband.

Right now, it's survival of the fittest - I just hope I outlive him!


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## southbound

For those of you who stay for financial reasons, the children, etc., is your life miserable? If so, how do you stand it? I think my x wife just was so sick of me, finances and the other positive things in our marriage didn't matter. It's like, she just had to get out.


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## turnera

Life is...not what I would have chosen. Not so miserable that I had to run, but then I've always been willing to accept less than I wanted. All my life. But I can't tell you how many times in a week I stop and think, 'if only I was alone.'

I do know that if my DH had continued to be the super jerk he was about 5-10 years ago, I WOULD have found a way to afford leaving, one way or another.

I know that a LOT of women are not like that at all. They were raised to want what they want and GET what they want, and will not settle, period. So if you don't please her, look out.


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## southbound

turnera said:


> I know that a LOT of women are not like that at all. They were raised to want what they want and GET what they want, and will not settle, period. So if you don't please her, look out.


That was not like my x wife. She grew up with nothing financially and certainly wasn't accustomed to getting what she wanted when she wanted. I don't think she expected much out of life.

Together, she and I went from rags to riches; not real riches, but compared to how she grew up, we were rich. Then, once we had made it, apparently I couldn't live up to prince charming, so she was done with me.


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## SimplyAmorous

southbound said:


> That was not like my x wife. She grew up with nothing financially and certainly wasn't accustomed to getting what she wanted when she wanted. I don't think she expected much out of life.
> 
> Together, she and I went from rags to riches; not real riches, but compared to how she grew up, we were rich. Then, once we had made it, apparently I couldn't live up to prince charming, so she was done with me.


Your wife probably didn't expect anything financially, she doesn't sound high maintenance in THAT area, but she did expect the strong emotional connection, affection, "needing to be needed" and wanted thing. Would you agree Southbound? High Maintenance here -possible? 

That is how I am. I could never be marreid to a Work a holic, I would get too lonely. But give me a blue collar man who is madly in love with me with a little change in his pockets, that would do all the fullfilling I needed -of coarse it would help to have the country shack, be able to pay our bills on time & alot of fun & laughter while we set out working on our "reachable" dreams.


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## southbound

SimplyAmorous said:


> Your wife probably didn't expect anything financially, she doesn't sound high maintenance in THAT area, but she did expect the strong emotional connection, affection, "needing to be needed" and wanted thing. Would you agree Southbound? High Maintenance here -possible?
> 
> That is how I am. I could never be marreid to a Work a holic, I would get too lonely. But give me a blue collar man who is madly in love with me with a little change in his pockets, that would do all the fullfilling I needed -of coarse it would help to have the country shack, be able to pay our bills on time & alot of fun & laughter while we set out working on our "reachable" dreams.


You are probably right. I always thought when people spoke of "high maintenance" they were usually speaking financially, but I suppose she was high maintenance emotionally. I guess I knew that to a point in the beginning, but she seemed to mature a lot over the years, or so i thought, so I guess i put my high maintenance tools in low gear thinking she didn't need them as much.


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## magnoliagal

SimplyAmorous said:


> That is how I am. I could never be marreid to a Work a holic, I would get too lonely. But give me a blue collar man who is madly in love with me with a little change in his pockets, that would do all the fullfilling I needed -of coarse it would help to have the country shack, be able to pay our bills on time & alot of fun & laughter while we set out working on our "reachable" dreams.


You know we are alike in this. I've got a blue collar man myself who thankfully is back adoring me again. Never was interested in his money. Everything I want from my husband cannot be bought. If I wanted money I would have stayed at my career. It wasn't fulfilling but being at home with my babies and an emotionally there husband is.

Southbound my husband would do anything for me but there is a difference between my marriage and yours. I meet my husband's needs too. I know he doesn't like the sun so I don't push him to go to the pool with me. I know he likes to camp so I go with him. It's a two way street and thats what makes it beautiful. Again you are looking at just what your wife needed. What about your needs? What did you need?


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## turnera

Yeah, when I was talking about wanting what you want, I meant like winning the argument, or getting the room decorated the way she wants it, or going to HER friend's party and not YOUR friend's party...things like that. It can be very subtle.

NO matter what your wife was like, you are STILL sitting here wasting your time thinking 'if I had only...blah blah blah' when, in reality, you should be spending the time looking at YOU. What are YOU doing to become a whole person, one who doesn't compromise unless needed, who stands up for himself, who values himself, who comes to a woman from a position of power and self-confidence. 

You keep coming back again and again to this one thing - If I had just... - when people keep telling you not to waste your time on that. Why is that? What are you not willing to look at in yourself?


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## magnoliagal

turnera said:


> You keep coming back again and again to this one thing - If I had just... - when people keep telling you not to waste your time on that. Why is that? What are you not willing to look at in yourself?


My sister has yet to have a relationship last more than 5 years. She's always the one doing the dumping too. Except for this ONE guy. He was a total dork and what she saw in him I have no idea. They lived together for 2 years and out of the blue he left her. Do you know that to this day she still obsesses like SB about why he did it, what did she do wrong, everything, it's crazy. And this was at least 7 years ago. She is totally stuck and can't see it no matter how many times I tell her. It ruined her last relationship which btw she just ended after you guessed it 5 years. She kept comparing this guy the ONE that got away. Really? He's a total loser. And I keep thinking why am I the only one that sees that? LOL!!


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## NotaGoodSlave

Reason #1: Money
Reason #2: Cash
Reason #3: Moohla
Reason #4: Dough
Reason #5: Bucks
Reason #6: Greenbacks
Reason #7: ............well you get the idea.

Marriage is all about money. Nothing more. Nothing Less.


----------



## kevint

turnera said:


> I'm sure you know by now that women suffer in silence. For years. They expect men to be as tuned in to the marriage as they are. When the men continue to travel in oblivion, satisfied (probably because the wife is doing 75% of the work), and the women try to get the husband to notice she's not happy, and they don't, the women stew in silence. Resenting. Growing angry. Going through all the stages of ending a relationship, in silence, with the man none the wiser. Until, when she's finally at the final stage - having NO feelings left for you (already gone past the sad, anger, resenting, etc. stages until there simply is no love left - and you finally notice what she's saying, it IS too late. You men then go through all the stages after she leaves; she's already been there. That's why you couldn't make it work - you didn't pay attention; you settled in and enjoyed the ride without worrying about her.


Im gonna read this over and over again.I have never heard it like this before.:smthumbup:


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## southbound

NotaGoodSlave said:


> Reason #1: Money
> Reason #2: Cash
> Reason #3: Moohla
> Reason #4: Dough
> Reason #5: Bucks
> Reason #6: Greenbacks
> Reason #7: ............well you get the idea.
> 
> Marriage is all about money. Nothing more. Nothing Less.


If that's true, then it seems she would have divorced me in the first few years instead of after 18 after the money was good.


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## SimplyAmorous

I believe every person in this world , men and women, have their HIGH MENTAINANCE areas. I know what my husbands are (though he is much easier to please than me) , he knows what MINE are.... to communicate these effectively and to care about meeting each others needs is the answer to a happy fullfilling marraige. 

Suffering in any type of silence is a slow death to the partner doing it, my husband did it for a time -to the sheer detriment of himself - I had NO CLUE, I was content. When I learned of it, I was pi**ed off at him for doing it !  He knows better now. We are much closer now and totally vulnerable with each other, this is ONE Of the keys to fullfillment in any marraige. 

Southbound, did you see my new thread >> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...r-its-pain-its-beauty-how-vulnerable-you.html


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## southbound

turnera said:


> You keep coming back again and again to this one thing - If I had just... - when people keep telling you not to waste your time on that. Why is that? What are you not willing to look at in yourself?


I know, I'm beating a dead horse. You would just have to have been around us to know why I'm so puzzled. It's just something I can't fully relate in typing.

If she had been a woman of the world who was obviously different than me who had done everything and had an obvious edge to her personality and then married a laid back country boy like me, I could have understood more. This is as shocking as if you had turned on Mr. Rogers one day and he came in with a tattoo and cursing. One would obviously wonder what happened.

She is just no longer the woman she claimed to be all those years. I wonder if something did snap within her and if during her vulnerable state she allowed someone to talk her into doing what she did.


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## magnoliagal

Southbound my heart goes out to you. It does. My parents disowned me 12 years ago and I just didn't understand what I had done to deserve that. I was the overachiever, straight A, do nothing wrong type person and yet they walked. Was this my fault or theirs? I could spend years trying to figure it out or I could just let it go. I've chosen to let it go. My therapist recently told me that sometimes there are no logical answers as to why people do the things they do. And in the end does it really matter why?


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## southbound

magnoliagal said:


> Southbound my heart goes out to you. It does. My parents disowned me 12 years ago and I just didn't understand what I had done to deserve that. I was the overachiever, straight A, do nothing wrong type person and yet they walked. Was this my fault or theirs? I could spend years trying to figure it out or I could just let it go. I've chosen to let it go. My therapist recently told me that sometimes there are no logical answers as to why people do the things they do. And in the end does it really matter why?


I'm sorry to hear that; I know that must be tough. Ironically, I told my brother lately that the only thing I could compare this to would be a person's parents disowning them. he has never experienced anything like this, and that was an example I gave him.

I suppose the weirdness to me is that it stirs feelings and emotions that go beyond just the fact that my wife no longer wanted me. that was the trigger, but it makes me feel like my whole life has been a lie and fake.

For one, what happened to the woman that I married and lived with all those years? Her form is still there, but the person on the inside is gone and replaced with something totally strange. I wonder if she recognizes the person she is now?

Also, what happened to the way i was raised? Nobody ever gave me a deep marriage talk, but by example, I was led to believe that "I do" meant forever. It's not like nobody ever got divorced where I'm from, but i can honestly say I can't think of a single couple in my circle of people who divorced with these kinds of reasons, nor can anyone else. Maybe it's different in cities where the population is millions, but around here, I've never heard of it.

Another thing is that puzzles people, and me, is that it happened so quickly. The entire thing happened within weeks. The wait period for divorce turned it into a few months, but one day everybody thinks we're the happiest couple on earth, then we're separated and BAM, we're divorced. It's enough to make a head spin.


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## turnera

Then you truly have learned nothing about women. Men are simple creatures. Their parents tell them to go out and have fun. Don't worry about meals, cleaning, manners, relationships, anything. Just have fun. Teenage boys are still busy having fun, with mom still making their meals, washing their clothes, making their doctor appointments, following behind them cleaning up...life is ALL ABOUT HAVING FUN. Oh, yeah, throw a little schoolwork in there...as long as you graduate.

Meanwhile, (most) girls are being taught how to look good, how to not get dirty, how to wash dishes and cook and do laundry. They're given dolls and told to pretend to be a mom - so they play at putting on pretty clothes and makeup, they have baby dolls they learn how to take care of, they get praised and cooed over when they're so 'cute' about taking care of their babies...they learn that what they LOOK like is more important than what they want.

By the time they're teenagers, they are ALL about looks. They didn't (usually) spend years being outside playing sports, roughhousing, getting dirty and sweaty - they watched tv shows about pretty girls getting the guy, so they focus on looks, and they read books about romance and daydreamed about finding a guy. STILL, nowhere in there was a real conversation with themselves about what they really want out of life - they've been taught that their appearance is more important, that no one really cares what they think, and that they had better provide what's expected.

Meanwhile, the boys are having fun. Only now, they're having fun WITH the guys, and WITH girls. Once again, the girls are not only competing in the popularity category with other girls, to get the guys, but they are now having to start thinking about what it means to catch - and keep - a boy. Still, nothing about what they want or believe. Just how they fit in.

So...the girl gets a guy to commit to marriage because, after all, that's what she's been trained to work toward, right? That's what matters in life. They get married, and all the pent-up expectations start to weigh against reality - dealing with a male who frankly only wants to have fun (no small reason a man's usual top 3 Needs are sex, recreation, and admiration). Suddenly, he's being expected to act like an adult, when he's never been prepared for it. And the person expecting it is the woman he expected to have fun (sex) with. He shuts off. And she's being expected to replace her mother and do everything for the man (unless, of course, he 'bothers' to decide to 'help' her out). And what happened to all that romance she grew up thinking would be in her marriage? Instead, she gets a surly, noncommunicative stranger who fights her every step of the way. Or ignores her.

Ever notice how the Disney fairy tales end at the wedding?

So...go a few years into a marriage, and you're both left wondering what happened, why isn't it easier, what's in it for me? The guy, he reverts back to his old self. But the girl? What does she have to revert back to? This marriage was all she planned for, she never really wasted time thinking about who she was, what she wanted, what she would do without a man.

But now she's not getting needs met. Her dreams are shattered. She's at the 'is that all there is' stage. And she starts acting 'out of character.' Trying to figure out what happened and what she's supposed to do.

All this to tell you...the wife you married, probably ISN'T who she really is. You don't KNOW who she is. And neither does she.


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## turnera

southbound said:


> Another thing is that puzzles people, and me, is that it happened so quickly. The entire thing happened within weeks. The wait period for divorce turned it into a few months, but one day everybody thinks we're the happiest couple on earth, then we're separated and BAM, we're divorced. It's enough to make a head spin.


 Don't you understand yet that is was NOT overnight? She has been THINKING and thinking and thinking, and most of that was probably UNHAPPY thoughts. Is it your fault you didn't know? Yes and no. We don't come with instruction manuals. But don't be saying she just turned on you overnight.


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## magnoliagal

southbound said:


> I suppose the weirdness to me is that it stirs feelings and emotions that go beyond just the fact that my wife no longer wanted me. that was the trigger, but it makes me feel like my whole life has been a lie and fake.


Try waking up one day and realizing your parents never wanted you. I know all about feeling that your whole life was a lie and fake. I was lost for a year after my parents disowned me. Then after that I slowly began to rebuild my life without them. I was deeply enmeshed with my father so there was a huge hole when he left (I know now he's a destructive narcissist). My mother I recently realized never liked me and was jealous of me. Of course I never knew or saw it. She tried to destroy me but it was so subtle that I never noticed. I see it now. Before I was blind to it.



> For one, what happened to the woman that I married and lived with all those years? Her form is still there, but the person on the inside is gone and replaced with something totally strange. I wonder if she recognizes the person she is now?


My parents have morphed into something that I no longer recognize. These are not the people I thought they were. I spent a long time thinking thoughts like you. Questions that had no answers. I will likely never know what really happened to them. They of course have rewritten history. The way they tell the story is I left them. I of course remember every detail as if it happened yesterday.

I got stuck in the mourning phase for too long because I blamed myself for what happened much like what you are doing now. I felt broken and unloveable. In that one moment my whole life changed. I was no longer this confident person. They took that from me. I became a shell of a person. It was very traumatic to say the least.

Don't make the same mistake I did. Don't stay stuck in this phase. Looking back I realize that all those questions I kept trying to ask to make some sense out of what happened were pointless. The bottom line was I no longer had parents. The reason why didn't really matter. What mattered was that I get back up and recognize my worth as a human being with or without them. 

You can sit and spend the next decade trying to figure out what went wrong with your marriage and I can tell you from experience it won't make one iota of difference. Your story isn't some cut and dried infidelity or walk a way wife syndrome it's one of those you will never truly know what happened stories. Your wife has issues that I'm certain of. I've said it before and I'll say it again this had NOTHING to do with you.


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## SimplyAmorous

SouthBound, sure sounds like your wife had some passive aggressiveness going on -probably for alot more years than you realized towards the ending. I have to adamently agree with Turnera, this was NOT overnight. She put on the aires she was "perfect" "nice" "sweet" but deep inside, she was nothing but.... Here is a couple articles about it - what do you think ? 

Dealing with a Passive-Aggressive Manipulator (1) - Mental Health - Families.com

What does Passive Aggressive Mean


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## southbound

SimplyAmorous said:


> SouthBound, sure sounds like your wife had some passive aggressiveness going on -probably for alot more years than you realized towards the ending. I have to adamently agree with Turnera, this was NOT overnight. She put on the aires she was "perfect" "nice" "sweet" but deep inside, she was nothing but.... Here is a couple articles about it - what do you think ?
> 
> Dealing with a Passive-Aggressive Manipulator (1) - Mental Health - Families.com
> 
> What does Passive Aggressive Mean


She says she was unhappy for a long time, but her divorce actions were sudden. It's not like we were fighting for 3 years and then she decided to leave.

As some have mentioned, "IT was not about me." Could someone expand on that. If it wasn't about me, why did she take it out on me and blame me? I wonder if she realizes it was not about me, or does she really think it is about me. She told me in the end that she waited hoping "I" would change, but I never did, so to her, it was apparently "all" about me.

I'll check the articles out after work. Thanks.


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## magnoliagal

I know you probably think there is no connection between your situation and what happened with me and my parents but there is. They only liked me when I did what they wanted. Within 6 months of me deciding I wanted something different they walked. 6 months was all it took for them to be done with me. SB they are users just like your wife was.

I think when your wife said she was unhappy for a long time she meant that literally. SHE was unhappy for a long time but it wasn't you. Oh she blamed it on you that's for sure. But isn't that the first no no in marriage? Making the other person responsible for your own happiness. Expecting the other person to change to suit them.

She wasn't passive aggressive she was a user. You are researching the wrong topic. Go read up on users and toxic people.


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## upset/confused

I stayed with a cheater because I think it is better to fix your issues than not deal with them. They will follow you around like a lost pup.

Didnt matter what I wanted, he found another one and we are now separated leading to divorce.


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## AFEH

magnoliagal said:


> Southbound my heart goes out to you. It does. My parents disowned me 12 years ago and I just didn't understand what I had done to deserve that. I was the overachiever, straight A, do nothing wrong type person and yet they walked. Was this my fault or theirs? I could spend years trying to figure it out or I could just let it go. I've chosen to let it go. My therapist recently told me that sometimes there are no logical answers as to why people do the things they do. And in the end does it really matter why?


Yes. Sometimes “Pure Acceptance” is the thing.

Accepting something without understanding it. Maybe we will never understand it. But by accepting it, the truth of whatever it is, we can move on and put it behind us. Which is probably where it belongs rather than being the focus of our everyday thoughts.

But sometimes Accepting can be as hard as Understanding.


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## Mrs. T

Runs like Dog said:


> I think in my wife's case she stays because she will never take responsibility for her own life or be accountable for anything she does. Also I think that the truly paranoid really DO want to make everyone around them as miserable as they are.


Dog...just curious...if she's a horrible as you paint her then why do you stay? I've read several of your posts and you seem very bitter.


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## Mrs. T

turnera said:


> I'm sure you know by now that women suffer in silence. For years. They expect men to be as tuned in to the marriage as they are. When the men continue to travel in oblivion, satisfied (probably because the wife is doing 75% of the work), and the women try to get the husband to notice she's not happy, and they don't, the women stew in silence. Resenting. Growing angry. Going through all the stages of ending a relationship, in silence, with the man none the wiser. Until, when she's finally at the final stage - having NO feelings left for you (already gone past the sad, anger, resenting, etc. stages until there simply is no love left - and you finally notice what she's saying, it IS too late. You men then go through all the stages after she leaves; she's already been there. That's why you couldn't make it work - you didn't pay attention; you settled in and enjoyed the ride without worrying about her.


This is amazing...it describes perfectly the way I handled my unhappiness in my first marriage. Turnera you have a way with words!! Thankfully I have learned since then that it is so much more beneficial to stand up for yourself, speak your mind, get it out in the open. Otherwise the anger becomes toxic...destroying everything in its path.


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## turnera

Yes. The point is that both parties have a responsibility - the man to stay in tune to his wife and not let his upbringing keep him clueless, and the woman to learn to expand the inherent boundaries within which women are raised, and become vocal.


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## southbound

magnoliagal said:


> I know you probably think there is no connection between your situation and what happened with me and my parents but there is. They only liked me when I did what they wanted. Within 6 months of me deciding I wanted something different they walked. 6 months was all it took for them to be done with me. SB they are users just like your wife was.
> 
> I think when your wife said she was unhappy for a long time she meant that literally. SHE was unhappy for a long time but it wasn't you. Oh she blamed it on you that's for sure. But isn't that the first no no in marriage? Making the other person responsible for your own happiness. Expecting the other person to change to suit them.
> 
> She wasn't passive aggressive she was a user. You are researching the wrong topic. Go read up on users and toxic people.


I think she did look outside herself for happiness. So, if this was about "her" and not "me", then getting rid of me is not going to solve her problem. I guess until she learns to be in charge of her own happiness, she will never truly be happy.

A lot of people say the guy she is currently dating is "a piece of work" and is good at using women. But who knows, he may have just the drama it takes to satisfy her.


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## magnoliagal

> So, if this was about "her" and not "me", then getting rid of me is not going to solve her problem. I guess until she learns to be in charge of her own happiness, she will never truly be happy.


Yes. Now you are starting to get this. 



> A lot of people say the guy she is currently dating is "a piece of work" and is good at using women. But who knows, he may have just the drama it takes to satisfy her.


Look I used to be like your wife (user) and before I got married I dated lots of bad boys. The only guys I liked were the ones who treated me like crap. Yes I got off on the drama. Was totally addicted to it. Wasn't until the last one got physical that I wised up. I then specifically sought out the nicest guy I could find. Read up on all those nice guy threads in the mens club and you can guess how that turned out. LOL 

Explains a lot really as to why my marriage wasn't so great and why it took a while for me to "get it". It took changing my point of reference to be with a nice guy. To be able to fully appreciate all that he does for me. As a general rule I don't do "nice". It's unnerving somehow. I have to work at it.

I'm laughing at your wife and her "piece of work". If she's going down that road it will not end well.


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## turnera

magnolia is exactly correct. Think Grease.


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## southbound

I'm sure one reason that makes it difficult for me to just let this go is due to my personality. As I've stated before, I look within myself for happiness, so I also look within myself when things go wrong. I'm not the type that blames all my troubles on other people. I don't say to myself, "I could have had a better job, or more money, or better this or that if only something else hadn't happened. 

For example, most everybody would like to be a star, at least for a few minutes, but a lot say they just couldn't do it, that those who did had different life situations. I, however, love to sing, and i have no doubt in my mind that if I had really tried, I could have been one of the guys you hear on radio. I could have been on the Opry singing with George Jones. I'm not saying I would have been another Garth Brooks, but I could have made an appearance of some kind.

However, it just wasn't worth everything that went into it to me and I didn't really have a dream to do it. But if Toby Keith could do it, why couldn't I have done it? He puts his pants on one leg at a time just like I do.:rofl: 

So, that's how i am. I, therefore, am looking within myself for my contributions to this divorce. It would be too easy just to say she's an idiot and I'm the smart one; case closed.

But, I guess i apply that attitude a little too much for my own good sometimes.


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## SimplyAmorous

southbound said:


> So, that's how i am. I, therefore, am looking within myself for my contributions to this divorce. It would be too easy just to say she's an idiot and I'm the smart one; case closed.


If MORE spouses did what you are doing right here BEFORE they scrambled to see a Lawyer for Divorce papers, there'd be a lot less divorces in our world. I find it commendable. You'll run out of questions eventually, ha ha.


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## southbound

SimplyAmorous said:


> If MORE spouses did what you are doing right here BEFORE they scrambled to see a Lawyer for Divorce papers, there'd be a lot less divorces in our world. I find it commendable. You'll run out of questions eventually, ha ha.


I feel like i did do that before the divorce, but she would have no part of it. She did say it was partly her fault, but she never gave any specifics. i feel like that was just a generic statement to make her look a little better. 

Oh, SimplyAmorous, I've already figured out what to do when I run out of questions: I just ask the same ones over again with a little different wording. I bet everyone will be glad when i run out of ways to phrase the same question.:rofl:


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