# What have I done?



## orbitary (Feb 18, 2013)

Hi all....some advice please.

We got married 6 months ago, everything seemed right. Things have taken a turn for the worst lately. She changed a few months ago and got a bit more withdrawn. She recently let me know that she has been depressed. I think that it boils down to money. My checks pay the bills but there isn't much left over- she comes from a 'well to do' family that has never had to worry about money because there was always plenty of it. I should add also, that she is from Korea. There are some things that are blamed on cultural differences.

She says that when there is something wrong, I should talk to her and not hold it in, but when I talk to her it agitates her and erupts into an argument.

I have been facing things too, but I don't tell her because her depression is a full time job.

*What I face:*

*She is ashamed of my daughter, she does not let her friends know that I have a 16 yr old child. If the friends come to visit, she takes down the pictures of my daughter so they don't see. Also, I cannot be friends with her friends on Facebook because they might see that I have a daughter. (She says that this is because of her culture)

*When I get my daughter (alternating weekends) my wife leaves and stays the night at her parents house. I think this hurts my daughters feelings.

*We are accumulating debt, she has finally said that she will get a job. (she absolutely does not want a job). She has offered to make her own car payment, but has made it clear that she is going to purchase a $500 wallet because she needs a new wallet. She had a job recently and the money went to 'things', but not our debt.

*She has been talking to a guy on her cellphone through text. I came home early a few days ago and caught her on the phone with him. I dont know if they have met in person or not lately. I was real angry, she said that I have nothing to worry about. At that moment she said we should forget the past and start over. So, she wants that forgotten about. Of course.

*Her friends come first. She was even texting during our Valentines dinner and was on the phone the whole way home 
after our Valentines dinner. We went on the 13th to avoid the crowd. Then, on the 14th (V day), she stayed out drinking with her friends until 11 or 12pm. She said it was my fault because I have made her depressed.

I have been putting up with some BS, but I want us to find our compatibility. She has finally stated that she is willing to talk to a marriage counselor with me. That much is good news. 

I asked her last night what I could possibly do to help her with this depression thing, she said for me to Google it. And that it's my fault. So..this is probably a beating to read through, but I believe that marriage should last, so I will fight until there is no light left in the tunnel. 

I guess maybe I want some tips on how to handle some of these things.
Thank you


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Are you sure she is actually in a clinical depression? Or is she using the idea of a depression to get her way on things.

You should not put up with the things going on in your marriage. Her being ashamed of your daughter is unacceptable. I would leave a person over that. It’s your job to protect your child.

You need to set boundaries and let her know what they are. If she does not respect them then it’s reasonable to end this marriage.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Um. She doesn't sound depressed. She might be having an affair though. Having v day with you to avoid the crowds but going out and facing the crowds just fine with friends is a big red flag
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## orbitary (Feb 18, 2013)

EleGirl & Shaggy-
Im not sure if it is clinical depression. I told her some things last night and she cried, loud for 20-30 minutes. It seemed like it would never end. If she's not clinically depressed then she is definitely sad.

It was my idea to have V Day on the 13th, I hate the V Day crowds...but, I couldn't believe that on the 14th, she went out with friends, came home late (and drunk) and we had the worst argument ever. And it's all my fault.

She has finally agreed to counseling, and I found an affordable counselor. Problem now is that we have to wait 2 weeks because of her plans. I don't know if we have the strength to wait 2 weeks really.

Sometimes I wonder if I am fighting the good fight or if it's all destined for doom.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

My dad's new wife (when I ws just 18) was the same.

It came to blows and I didn't talk to him for 8 years because he WOULD NOT stand up for me. Eff tht shet. Find your balls, man.

My dad died 2 years ago. We never got a chance to work things out.

His wife apologized to me at his funeral. But whatever. She's a wh-re. A jealous, horrible piece of shet who shunned a CHILD because it was "her culture" too. Eff that.

Find your balls and tell your wife that YOUR CHILD matters...if she doesn't like it, she can leave.

Don't eff up your daughter like my dad effed up my whole perception of self and never being good enough for anyone.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

orbitary said:


> *What I face:*
> 
> *She is ashamed of my daughter, she does not let her friends know that I have a 16 yr old child. If the friends come to visit, she takes down the pictures of my daughter so they don't see. Also, I cannot be friends with her friends on Facebook because they might see that I have a daughter. (She says that this is because of her culture)


Stop allowing this immediately.
To the point that YOU mention your daughter in front of her friends if she insists on continuing this charade.



> *When I get my daughter (alternating weekends) my wife leaves and stays the night at her parents house. I think this hurts my daughters feelings.


Why are you married to a woman who would do this?



> *We are accumulating debt, she has finally said that she will get a job. (she absolutely does not want a job). She has offered to make her own car payment, but has made it clear that she is going to purchase a $500 wallet because she needs a new wallet. She had a job recently and the money went to 'things', but not our debt.


You need to put a stop to this.
She gets a job and stops blowing money on crap.
A $500.00 wallet?
I`ve never even imagined a $500.00 wallet.



> *She has been talking to a guy on her cellphone through text. I came home early a few days ago and caught her on the phone with him. I dont know if they have met in person or not lately. I was real angry, she said that I have nothing to worry about. At that moment she said we should forget the past and start over. So, she wants that forgotten about. Of course.


Are you tracking her text messages, e-mail, and other forms of communication?
If you aren`t you'd beter start quickly.



> *Her friends come first. She was even texting during our Valentines dinner and was on the phone the whole way home
> after our Valentines dinner. We went on the 13th to avoid the crowd. Then, on the 14th (V day), she stayed out drinking with her friends until 11 or 12pm. She said it was my fault because I have made her depressed.


And what did you say to her blaming you for her inconsiderate acts?
Do you allow her to keep you as the scapegoat?



> I have been putting up with some BS, but I want us to find our compatibility. She has finally stated that she is willing to talk to a marriage counselor with me. That much is good news.


If what you say is true she isn`t going to like the MC as he'll point out the inequities in your marriage



> I asked her last night what I could possibly do to help her with this depression thing, she said for me to Google it. And that it's my fault. So..this is probably a beating to read through, but I believe that marriage should last, so I will fight until there is no light left in the tunnel.


Not very forthcoming is she?



> I guess maybe I want some tips on how to handle some of these things.
> Thank you


Start by stiffening your backbone and refuse to accept this crap.
She'll either gain respect for you and your problems will fix themselves or it'll destroy your marriage.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I just caught this...



> "Then, on the 14th (V day), she stayed out drinking with her friends until 11 or 12pm. "


My friend you've got problems.

Start snooping on what she's doing and with who because this added to your discovery of the OM text messages spells affair.




> I couldn't believe that on the 14th, she went out with friends, came home late (and drunk) and we had the worst argument ever. And it's all my fault.


Affair for sure.


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

orbitary said:


> Sometimes I wonder if I am fighting the good fight or if it's all destined for doom.


Your wife does sound like:

Immature and selfish = she makes money to buy her own "things" but not helping household expenses AT ALL..

Self-centred = lack of empathy towards your child 

Plus, possible casual affair behind your back
she goes out with "friends" to get drunk..= inconsiderate and teenage behaviour

These things suggest that she's really not a good wife material. She sounds more like a spoilt child..

Have you seen any posts/threads by a poster called, "Argyle" on here? If my memory serves me correctly, he is struggling with his Korean Wife.


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## orbitary (Feb 18, 2013)

Thanks all. All has been read. I cannot monitor the cellphone because it is all in the Korean language. It's hopefully going to get better. I will look for this Argyle person.


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## nevergveup (Feb 18, 2013)

Your dealing with all of this after only 6 months of marriage.
She is a spoiled little girl who has always had her way.

Spends that much on a wallet.Is embarrassed that you have a daughter.I imagine she knew this before she married you.
She dosen't work, while you have many bills to pay.I'm sorry,a marriage with real love has both spouses trying to improve it.

Most marriages start off great and go down hill over time,but it seems your is already there.Sorry,I just see
you eventually will start to resent your wife if she dosen't change soon.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...much of your wife's behavior is quite reminiscent of being a selfish, spoiled, narcissistic child. To be fair, those traits are not that unusual in Korean culture...neither are aggression, jealousy, paranoia, conformism, and slavish adherence to social status. Bear in mind that, even though being Korean can look a lot like horrible mental illness, the two are not mutually exclusive.

1. Regarding your daughter, well, avoiding shame is ingrained in Korean culture - and her friends probably would look down on her if they knew you had a daughter.* That said, there's no reason to accept anyone treating your daughter poorly. Yes - it will be hard for her - but I'd give her the choice between being a kindly yet distant stepmother and a divorcee. Heck, I'm not kind, I'd probably Facebook pictures of my daughter so she wouldn't have to worry about her friends finding out any more. It may be reasonable to insist on her treating your daughter well when she's around but not insisting on her admitting she exists to her friends or family.

2. ...she may also be having an affair. Some of her behavior doesn't sound trustworthy. I would say, however, that my Korean wife puts much less priority into Valentine's day than a typical American (referring to it as an 'id*ic Hallmark holiday.') Jealousy is a reasonable response and unlikely to make matters worse.

3. ...Koreans are argumentative. Even the sane ones. So, you are probably best off confronting her even though it erupts into an argument. Standing your ground is a pain, but may be helpful - just figure out what your limits are in advance...because she may not have any limits at all. Her behavior will probably improve marginally if you consistently stand up to her. The most effective method I've found for dealing with escalation is to tell her that she's wrong, acting crazy, that you won't spend another second dealing with her, and leaving her for at least 4 hours. Bear in mind that casual violence is fairly acceptable in Korea - as my wife has lectured me repeatedly on the proper ways to hit a women. (basically, don't break bones......) You'll probably have to set limits on casual slaps and thrown crockery.

5. Regarding her depression, America is very lonely for my wife, so this isn't surprising. Depending on where you live, it may be possible to incorporate bits of home into your life. Bathhouses, in particular, as a big part of my wife's life. Socialization can be hard - some Koreans are extremely status conscious and paranoid, which results in difficulty dealing with American racism. Korean meetups are not uncommon and may be helpful.

--Argyle
*There are degrees. If she married a non-Korean, the Korean term for her apparently translates as 'soldier's wh*re', which is why we didn't have a wedding in Korea - but my wife's parents aren't that upset and I've met some of her friends. However, there's also strong racism in Korean culture, so it is probably not realistic to expect her to accept your daughter unless she is either Caucasian, Korean, or Chinese. Given that that should be a dealbreaker, you may be looking at divorce.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

obituary why are you with her?? i had a 3 year old son when i remarried 6 years later he is the love of my wifes life. she cant have kids and she loves him like her own. if my wife pulled half the crap with my son that yours does with your D i would kick her to the curb


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## debster (Dec 17, 2012)

terrence4159 said:


> *obituary* why are you with her?? ...


:lol: *Too funny!* :rofl:

But not funny about your situation. :iagree: with what everyone said about not acknowledging or respecting your daughter. That's a deal breaker. Is there still time to get an annulment?  What's to love about a brat like that?  Or what is it that you are not telling us about what you've done to sour the relationship? Sorry  It takes two.


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## orbitary (Feb 18, 2013)

I dont think its funny. We are still new and all this drama is still new to me. Ive never had to deal with this. And im fighting to make my marriage right.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

@coffee
Possibly. Albeit, there's some truth to these stereotypes. If you ever want to read something scary, look into domestic violence statistics in Korea. The frequency isn't that high, but the degree of injury is fairly extreme...or just realize that common names for women include...'no more boys' and 'next to a boy'.

...and I do believe that English speakers do tend to overdiagnose BPD in Koreans. Screaming fits, rages, and storming off demanding divorce are relatively more common - relative to the 'cold zombies' on the other side of the waters.

I should probably add that the Korean's I've met tend to be more loyal and kinder than Americans - particularly to those in need. (They tend to see the average American as an inhuman monster who leaves his/her fellow men to die in the street.) They aren't precisely wrong.

--Argyle


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## orbitary (Feb 18, 2013)

Argyle- I value alot of what you say, but you end it with 'racism must be strong in my culture'? No, its not or I wouldnt have married her in the first place.

Im going to put my foot down about my daughter, but everything is new and I want us to have all the discussion and counseling we need as we go through it.

Shes argumentative at the right moments, but if I ever hit her that would end it immediately. She is from a high class in Korea, not the slums.

America is lonely for her in some ways. She doesn't want to hang out with my friends, she feels that her english suck even though I think it doesn't. Shes just self concious about it. I do not disagree with anything that you nor anyone on this thread said about the llack of relationship with my daughter. Its BS and I will be addressing it direct. 

We are 6 months into this and still figuring things out. I think she is wrong so far, and this thread has been helpful- but anyone declaring that it should end should think about what marriage is. If you have to go through hell after 6 months, if you have to go through hell after 10 years, you should still fight for your marriage.


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## orbitary (Feb 18, 2013)

Argyle- not interested in talking with you anymore. You can post here because I am new and I dont know how to block you yet (if there is a way). You may have some good insight on the Korean culture but you're an *******. That's why you're here. If you can refrain, go elsewhere to insult people. I am here for help.
Thank you.


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## debster (Dec 17, 2012)

orbitary said:


> I dont think its funny. We are still new and all this drama is still new to me. Ive never had to deal with this. And im fighting to make my marriage right.


Orbitary... what was funny is that the poster called you Obituary. It struck me as funny anyways, sorry if you don't find it funny. 

Of course, nothing is funny about your situation, as I stated. {hugs}


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## debster (Dec 17, 2012)

orbitary said:


> Im going to put my foot down about my daughter, but everything is new and I want us to have all the discussion and counseling we need as we go through it.
> 
> ...
> 
> I do not disagree with anything that you nor anyone on this thread said about the llack of relationship with my daughter. Its BS and I will be addressing it direct.


Very happy for you that you've come to this realization. 



orbitary said:


> Shes argumentative at the right moments, but if I ever hit her that would end it immediately. She is from a high class in Korea, not the slums.


There is never a reason to hit anyone. Even if they do this in Korea, doesn't make it right. 



orbitary said:


> Ive never had to deal with this. And im fighting to make my marriage right.


It's good to not give up on your marriage if you address it from the point of what you are doing to contribute to a broken marriage. You can't change her. Only she can change herself if she responds lovingly and positively to the changes you make about yourself. 

Orbitary, you still haven't told us what you have done to possibly contribute to her depressed state? You seem to put the blame on her completely, even if as you say you are fighting to make your marriage right. Red flags go up for me when I see a laundry list of what the spouse has done wrong and no acknowledgement of the OP faults. Please be honest with us so those reading your story can help you, and consequently your marriage, since that's what you want. 



orbitary said:


> Argyle- not interested in talking with you anymore. You can post here because I am new and I dont know how to block you yet (if there is a way). You may have some good insight on the Korean culture but you're an *******. That's why you're here. If you can refrain, go elsewhere to insult people. I am here for help.
> Thank you.


What did Argyle say that set you off? One post you are saying you value what he has to say and then the next you are chastising him. I don't get it. :scratchhead:


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Her blaming you is an excuse to justify her wrong doings. 

I also bet she's having an affair. The red flags are certainly there and plenty of them. 

Your wife has zero respect for you. She's using you as a doormat.


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

orbitary said:


> *but anyone declaring that it should end should think about what marriage is.* If you have to go through hell after 6 months, if you have to go through hell after 10 years, you should still fight for your marriage.


I quite agree with your comment.

Telling anyone to Divorce her or leave her - however so easy it is to say to people, I tend to find the comment highly offensive and arrogant, to be frank. It also gives us a false impression that, "marriage is disposable, if you don't like it, get rid of it and get another" like a commodity. Marriage is far more precious than that.

Marriage is not a toaster!


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## orbitary (Feb 18, 2013)

debster said:


> Orbitary... what was funny is that the poster called you Obituary. It struck me as funny anyways, sorry if you don't find it funny.
> 
> Of course, nothing is funny about your situation, as I stated. {hugs}


Ohhh, I didn't see that! People confuse this name with obituary regularly- ha!


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## orbitary (Feb 18, 2013)

debster said:


> Very happy for you that you've come to this realization.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The worst thing that I have done to contribute to our failing is that I dont make enough money. Theres other little things, I sometimes tap my leg, bite my nails, play with my wedding ring- all that stuff drives her nuts. She thinks sometimes that I dont listen to her but I do try to. 

Maybe Argyle isn't that bad, he just has some anti-american sentiment that he throws in with his responses and I'm not here for that. I would never ever leave someone 'dying in the street' or whatever.


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## orbitary (Feb 18, 2013)

coffee4me said:


> Ok, orbitary. you want to try and fix these issues. It's admirable that you do not want to give up. This is quite a list of issue and it will take time to address them. Don't try to fix everything at once or expect things to change overnight. It would help to know a few things such as your ages, how long you were together before you married and if your wife is brought up here or in Korea (if so how long has she been in your country)
> 
> Thank you
> 
> ...


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...as you invited me. (PM) I'll try not to offend you again.

...I'd be careful assuming that high family==nonviolent or that they behave openly around you. That turned out to be very false in my wife's case. Her parents were pretty high in government and got along well when we visited, but black eyes, et cetera, happen a few times a year and arguments involve shouting, cursing, insults, and thrown crockery. Neither one is innocent, although the mother is probably the worst. OTOH, you might simply be more passive than she's used to. 

...money's a common problem among nearly every couple - particularly when women from the upper class marry. She's probably grown up with no budget and an attachment to expensive stuff. It might be most straightforwards to lay out your financial situation and work out a plan. If you can't agree and stick to something, you'll need to set limits...something fair involves depositing enough to pay all the bills and groceries into an account she can't touch and splitting the rest (unless she has a job.) It might be wise to consider, eg, living somewhere smaller so she can spend more on purses - most residences in Korea are relatively small but people tend to have nice stuff. The funniest example involved a guy who moved out of his apartment into a Mercedes.

...probably the most important thing is budgeting time to confront her on each issue. (one at a time) ...and accepting and preparing for the fact that she will most likely erupt aggressively. ...that and listening with an open heart to the things that she believes are making her unhappy. It might help a bit to look into a book on nonviolent communication and practice on safer topics. She is likely to be happier if you confront her than if you avoid confrontation.

...her blaming you for making her weird is a red flag though. *It is not healthy to make yourself responsible for another person's happiness.* My wife did that for a long time. I kind of bought into it for a while. That didn't work. She ended up with a BPD diagnosis and suspected autism. Probably not your situation. The quickest way to sort that out is to go to a marriage counselor, or a few good marriage counselors if the first doesn't work out...and see what happens. If she listens and works together to make changes...s'great. If she monologues incoherently about why everything is your fault...problematic.

...regarding your daughter, my wife is relatively liberal and open-minded for her age and culture. If I had children from a prior R/S, I don't believe she'd admit their existence. If they were neither Korean, nor Chinese, nor Caucasian - I'm certain she wouldn't admit their existence. If her children married outside those categories, she'd prefer them dying. She isn't a bad person, just a few decades behind the times. 

...it is, however, odd that she married you while knowing of the existence of your daughter. OTOH, a couple of my wife's Korean friends have essentially become wicked stepmothers to their husband's daughters from prior marriages. I don't know the friends personally, but my wife's description seems to be founded on rather extreme jealousy - possibly with an unfounded incestuous twist in one instance.

...not that it matters. Your daughter deserves you defending her. 


--Argyle


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## orbitary (Feb 18, 2013)

argyle said:


> ...as you invited me. (PM) I'll try not to offend you again.
> 
> ...I'd be careful assuming that high family==nonviolent or that they behave openly around you. That turned out to be very false in my wife's case. Her parents were pretty high in government and got along well when we visited, but black eyes, et cetera, happen a few times a year and arguments involve shouting, cursing, insults, and thrown crockery. Neither one is innocent, although the mother is probably the worst. OTOH, you might simply be more passive than she's used to.
> 
> ...


Argyle-
Thanks for coming back.

She has been brought up without the budget, but at the same time was trained to only find the best deals on things- which is why I thought she was conscientious about money since the start. I never imagined that she would leave me on the edge and guilt-trip me about not bringing in enough. What I make isn't even bad, I am not anything near a minimum wage worker. Its just not enough for her lifestyle, which has come to the surface more recently.

Her blaming me for her unhappiness is wrong, I am finally coming to grips with that. For many nights now, she feigns illness, every night there is something wrong: 'i started my period and it made me sick', 'I have a cold', 'my stomach is upset', 'i feel exhausted', etc etc. I don't buy into what she says anymore, although at first I would worry about her quite a bit.

As a matter of fact, I went into writing on this thread thinking that she has no mental illness like what you described with your wife but..now I am putting a couple things together:
*She says that when she was younger she took an overdose of antibiotics and it did something to her system that makes her less energetic
*she claims to sometimes see a ghost of a little girl, one that has followed her around her whole life. She has only 'seen' it once in our apartment but saw it at her parents house soon before she moved out. It just grins at her and it is evil
*she has low blood pressure (possibly a side effect of the anti-biotics) and the other night she felt that she was going to die- she asked me to donate her car to one of her friends if she were to die that night.
...hell, maybe she is mental.

Every night for the last week or two, she has a totally depressed demeanor and an illness of some sort. As if she is trying to send me a message that she is miserable. The only bone that she throws me is that she calls me 'hon' sometimes (short for honey). That's just about all that I am getting these days.

My daughter is another issue..I had a marriage over 10yrs ago, we peacefully divorced and me and the ex are still friends, and I am even friends with her current husband. No drama. My wife doesn't even know this because she has distanced herself so much. She didn't do this before marriage, she met my daughter before-hand, and has met my daughter one time since we have been married. Now, 6 months into this, I feel that I have been weak because I have allowed my wife to leave when my daughter comes over. 

So, my daughter deserves me defending her- true. Just so many issues to tackle. Just 6 months into this thing. Either I have totally screwed my life or there is a light at the end of the tunnel. We are to see the marriage counselor soon. Typing all this out, I feel bleak.
Thanks for your insight.
John


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## nevergveup (Feb 18, 2013)

No,your not the one in the wrong.You are the sole bread winner,
and it seems she dosen't want to comprimise.Does she do
any work around your apartment?A marriage is suppost to be give and take.Sorry,yours seems one side.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

orbitary said:


> EleGirl & Shaggy-
> Im not sure if it is clinical depression. I told her some things last night and she cried, loud for 20-30 minutes. It seemed like it would never end. If she's not clinically depressed then she is definitely sad.


What things did you tell her last night that made her cry? Crying because she is upset does not make her a sad person. A sad person is always sad, never happy and never enjoys anything. A depressed person is all that and does not want to be around people, often will not leave the house, has no motivation to do anything. 

It sounds to me like your wife is find except when she does not get her way. Then she will cry loudly for 20-30 minutes to get control of the situation. My guess is that she uses crying to get you to back down and let her have her way.


orbitary said:


> It was my idea to have V Day on the 13th, I hate the V Day crowds...but, I couldn't believe that on the 14th, she went out with friends, came home late (and drunk) and we had the worst argument ever. And it's all my fault.


If you did not want her to go out on the 14th, you need to be very clear about what you want.

Her going out with friends, getting drunk and staying out late is not something you should accept. This is a place where you need to set a boundary. This is not how a married person behaves.


orbitary said:


> She has finally agreed to counseling, and I found an affordable counselor. Problem now is that we have to wait 2 weeks because of her plans. I don't know if we have the strength to wait 2 weeks really.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if I am fighting the good fight or if it's all destined for doom.


If you cannot wait that long, then go to see a counselor yourself in the interim.


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## Tigger (Dec 5, 2007)

I have to ask where you met her and how long did you know her before you got married?

Did you get a visa for her to come to the US?


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## debster (Dec 17, 2012)

orbitary said:


> The worst thing that I have done to contribute to our failing is that I dont make enough money. Theres other little things, I sometimes tap my leg, bite my nails, play with my wedding ring- all that stuff drives her nuts. She thinks sometimes that I dont listen to her but I do try to.


If you are working full time and your job pays a reasonable wage and it is the best job you are qualified for, you are making enough money. What is she doing to contribute to the household income? I think I recall you saying she doesn't even work. :scratchhead:

When financial problems exist (and contribute to marital stress), you have two options, both can be exercised:

Increase income
Reduce expenses

If you discuss and prepare a budget together, as others have suggested, then you can look at opportunities to address the above. She gently needs to be given an education. I can suggest tools to use if you want. If she is handy with excel and doesn't work, maybe she would be willing to do some of this stuff for the both of you, and then you can review it with her.

She may resent this, if she was expecting to be supported in a manner to which she has become accustomed, but if you are gentle but firm and she truly wants to make the marriage work, she will come around, once she adjusts to her new reality.



orbitary said:


> Even now she is texting me saying that I make her 'weird'. I dont even know what that means nor why shes saying that kind of crap.


You do not *make* her weird, nor are you responsible for her feelings. She owns those feelings which are a reaction to her view of her situation. As an understanding spouse, you owe it to her to discuss her feelings, but you cannot change how she reacts to what she is experiencing in her life. Only she can change how she reacts, the same way only you can change how you react. For example, let's turn it around. She says you make her weird. You don't understand this comment and it has hurt you. So you could react to this by becoming depressed and shutting down or retort back in a mean way (uping the ante) or calmly discussing her feelings about being "weird". Depending on which option you choose, your own feelings would be quite different 1) sad 2) angry 3) peaceful. So the best option you could choose that would result in "better" feelings would be the third. But no matter what, whichever option you took, you own the feelings and outcome, because it was your choice to react accordingly to what she said. She didn't make you that way. 

Maybe if you can dissect with her why she feels weird, it will help you understand and help her know how to stop the weird feeling by choosing an alternate course of action by framing the situation differently.


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## orbitary (Feb 18, 2013)

nevergveup said:


> No,your not the one in the wrong.You are the sole bread winner,
> and it seems she dosen't want to comprimise.Does she do
> any work around your apartment?A marriage is suppost to be give and take.Sorry,yours seems one side.


True, she doesn't want to comprimise, which makes it tougher to talk through issues. The work she does around the apartment is laundry, light cleaning, cleans dishes, vacuums 50% of the time. I usually do the in-depth cleaning on the weekends. The place is cluttered because she keeps everything that she can, so its kind of hard to make it 'look' clean. We even have a kimchi freezer in our dining room..!:scratchhead:


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## orbitary (Feb 18, 2013)

coffee-
I don't reference her culture when me & her talk- she references it. Maybe its a shield? She says she doesn't post pics of me & her on Facebook much, because of her culture. Her culture this, her culture that. 
I cannot see anything that anyone (including myself) has said that is stereotypical. I am not here to blow steam and bash her, but being that she blames various things on her culture and I have lived my life without knowing her culture- I dont know what is accurate and what isn't. So yes, the cultural items are discussed but I have no desire to 'bash' her because she is Korean. That would be silly.

My negative view of her is that I do not see her contributing to the marriage in ways that I always thought that a wife would- not that she's asian. I dont claim myself to be perfect, not at all, but I am trying and it seems that I am fighting an uphill battle, which is why I am here. I have been talking to Argyle, whom has a Korean wife and good insight and that may be the kind of thing that I need. I dont blame everything on her culture, she does, which is why I brought it up here in the first place. I have zero disrespect for her culture, so perhaps I don't fully know where you are coming from.
Thanks


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

orbitary said:


> So, my daughter deserves me defending her- true. Just so many issues to tackle. Just 6 months into this thing. Either I have totally screwed my life or there is a light at the end of the tunnel. We are to see the marriage counselor soon. Typing all this out, I feel bleak.
> Thanks for your insight.
> John


You are taking ownership of a lot of things that you don't own. While at the same time avoiding ownership of the ONE thing you DO OWN. Bringing a woman into your daughters life. You own that.

This woman you brought into your daughters life denies your daughters existence, refuses to acknowledge her, removes her pictures, and has no relationship what so ever with your daughter.

Edited to add: This is all predicated on the assumption you didn't fully realize what this marriage would mean to your relationship with your daughter. However, if you fully understood prior to marriage, that your wife would have nothing to do with your daughter, then you deserve every bit of unhappiness coming your way.

What the hell kind of parent marries a person who wants nothing to do with their child? Your daughter sees that her father thinks so highly of her that she becomes a nonperson, not something to fully consider in the grand scheme of things, to the new wife. And you're focusing on your wife's problems and how you can fix them?

Your wife's attitude and behavior to your daughter are DEAL BREAKERS. PERIOD FULL STOP. Be the man and father your daughter has a right to expect.

yeah, what have you done?...done to your daughter...
Please reread this post that I notice you ignored the first time. 



that_girl said:


> Re: What have I done?
> My dad's new wife (when I ws just 18) was the same.
> 
> It came to blows and I didn't talk to him for 8 years because he WOULD NOT stand up for me. Eff tht shet. Find your balls, man.
> ...


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

@coffee (I'll try to stay on topic...not always good at that)

...I think the thing you may be missing is that my wife, my in-laws, my friends, my friend's friends, my co-workers friends and, as far as I can tell, orbitary's wife have all agreed they're...

...embarrassed by the existence of children from a prior marriage.
...have strong negative associations relative to other races.
...strongly value conformity to their cultural values.
...are strongly status conscious
...accept much higher conflict levels in marriage than most Americans.
...and attribute all of this to their culture.

Now, you can choose to assume that they're lying and making excuses for their behavior...and generally behaving like horrible people...and that anyone who believes that their behavior is cultural is a racist. But, it might not be the best approach if you're trying to empathize with your wife. There, you usually start out by giving her the benefit of the doubt when she tells you something.** 

...or you can choose to believe that even the negative values that they're attributing to their culture actually come from their culture. That doesn't mean that, eg, you should either think less of your wife because her values don't mesh with yours or accept behaviors that harm your daughter, but it does mean that you should accept that, as a result of her upbringing, it may be very difficult for her to accept the existence of a daughter. It also means that you'll need to figure out a way to live together while recognizing that your values differ significantly from your spouse in certain important ways. Just like most marriages, although perhaps a bit harder and you may need to pick your battles. For bonus credit, you can even try to see the merits of many of these cultural values.*

I should probably emphasize that, even though your wife's shame (assuming shame and not simple jealousy) at the existence of your daughter is probably cultural and to be expected, that doesn't mean that it is acceptable for you to stand by and let her hurt your daughter. It may be that she is willing to change - that'd be great. It may be that she isn't. Then you need to figure out whether or not you're willing to compromise to avoid divorce. And, if you do compromise, you really need to talk to your daughter. Facebook and hiding picture is annoying, but somewhat unimportant, but refusing to see your daughter would be a dealbreaker for me - others may disagree.

...regarding her depression...every Korean I've gotten to know to complains about how cold and lonely America is. Some people can cope, some can't. If she is native-born, I'd expect better coping skills. She might need some help here. Although, it sounds more like you should talk about her depression and figure out realistic changes she can make. Being open to changes on your end is essential to marriage, but I don't expect that you changing can really change her depression. OTOH, you both changing her _situation_ can help a lot.

...OTOH, regarding her spending habits and expectations, while her upbringing may have contributed something there...this sounds like a pretty cross-cultural phenomenon. Culture sounds more like a contributing factor than anything else.

--Argyle

*I can't altogether do that, but I try to think of some of these values as simply old-fashioned. I can accept that, in living memory, my relatives believed that: death was better than divorce, interracial marriage merited death, people in same-sex relationships weren't human, that certain races deserved genocide, that women showing their ankles were loose, and that women should be crippled to ensure beautiful feet. I never convinced any of these relatives to change their views...but accepted them as they were. Oh well...

OTOH, I can see that my wife has a sense of connection and shared responsibility with other Koreans that I don't see elsewhere - and that conformity and status consciousness can preserve social order and encourage hard work. That, and, I haven't met any Koreans who don't believe that marriage is hard and worth working at.

** I can tell you that when I told my wife that:
'Hitting people ain't cultural.'
'Hating xx people ain't cultural.'
'Screaming fits ain't cultural.'
'Being obsessed with designer stuff is ridiculous.'
'Interracial marriage is ok.'
...she looked honestly confused...explained that 'yes, it is cultural, and then started yelling when I contradicted her.'
...and then her siblings explained that I should expect cultural differences and started teaching me the proper ways to 'physically calm a woman.' Urgle.

OTOH, proceeding with...'I understand that you're from an aggressive culture, but we are living in the US, and teaching our children that it is ok to scream/punch/throw things during an argument will result in them ending up in jail.'
...actually worked (mostly) - our discussions are still pretty passionate, but I'm not dodging crockery anymore. Her values still haven't changed - she believes that slapping someone in an argument just adds emphasis - she just agrees that teaching our children that will cause problems later.


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## orbitary (Feb 18, 2013)

Anon Pink-
Definitely didnt mean to ignore you. Your story stuck in my head since your original post and I have put thought as to how horrible it were to be if that happened with my daughter.

Before marriage, my wife was fine with my daughter. We'd meet, go out for coffee, talk, walk, all that. Never a problem. My wife would even ask how my daughter was doing when she (daughter) wasn't around. After marriage, I brought my daughter over. We all cooked dinner. My wife got a phone call and left, went to a friend of hers. Soon after, my wife said that she's having trouble adjusting and just needs a little time. I granted her that, I was disappointed but allowed her to go to her parents. That was about 5 months ago. I've asked her about this, but there's a different excuse everytime.

Recently she offered to hang out with me and my daughter. I was pleasantly surprised and was looking forward to it. I learned yesterday that she is going to her parents tomorrow...so, no dinner. This sucks. I had no idea that it would ever be like this before marriage. Now I have to try to fix it. She will be confronted and given a choice. I don't know exactly when yet, I am hoping to put it in front of the counselor. If not, I'll lay it out for her myself.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

orbitary said:


> Anon Pink-
> Definitely didnt mean to ignore you. Your story stuck in my head since your original post and I have put thought as to how horrible it were to be if that happened with my daughter.
> 
> Before marriage, my wife was fine with my daughter. We'd meet, go out for coffee, talk, walk, all that. Never a problem. My wife would even ask how my daughter was doing when she (daughter) wasn't around. After marriage, I brought my daughter over. We all cooked dinner. My wife got a phone call and left, went to a friend of hers. Soon after, my wife said that she's having trouble adjusting and just needs a little time. I granted her that, I was disappointed but allowed her to go to her parents. That was about 5 months ago. I've asked her about this, but there's a different excuse everytime.
> ...


Thank you for defending your daughter and her right to be among your top two priorities, tops if there is a conflict.

I must point out that the quoted post found in my post to you was from another member "*that_girl*", not from me. I took up her banner because in my opinion, nothing else in your marriage matters until this issue is satisfactorily resolved.

Your wife misled you, by her not letting you know ahead of time and allowing you to remain unaware of her deeply ingrained and cherished cultural tradition of disgraceful behavior toward children. "Oh hey hon, just so you know, once we're married...? your daughter...? Not gonna work. You're okay with that right?"

But now you know. Talk to that_girl and see how her fathers abandonment affected her, and she was older than your daughter. This is a non-negotiation point.

All the other issues in your marriage mean nothing until your wife publicly, openly, and happily accepts your daughter into her life. That or the road. Cultural differences be damned! We're not talking about which hand you eat with vs which hand you wipe with. We're talking about your daughter's right to feel loved, accepted and safe.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...one other thought, perhaps foolish, if your wife accepted your daughter at one point, perhaps some sort of conflict has occurred? It might be reasonable to ask her - my wife has dealt similarly with other people in the past.

...albeit, in our case, I believe this to be less cultural than paranoia occasioned by mental illness...which has amplified many non-issues into life-or-death struggles in her mind. I could be wrong - as there seems to be a theme in her family of discordant in-law relationships.

I don't know if it helps - as I have always assumed that my wife's perceptions here were simple mental illness, but her thought process with in-laws appears to be:
1. Any ambiguous message is a game or veiled threat.
2. Interact with people through symbolic gestures (gifts).
3. Flee confrontation and brood over imagined wrongs.
4. Any disagreement on the part of her husband regarding in-laws is evidence of disloyalty, possibly sexual.
5. Close relationships and expressions of affection are evidence of incest.
6. Negation or questioning of statements is evidence of hostility.
7. All in-laws are inherently jealous and hostile.

It sounds completely f*d up, but, in practice boils down to her whining for days or hours about her in-laws, bringing them gifts, and being perfectly polite in company - but occasionally running away and avoiding people for extended periods with no explanation...and being depressed about her marriage...she even pushes me to spend more time with my relatives than I'm precisely comfortable with on the theory that they're likely to hate her less.

The incidents have been as trivial as: 'She criticized your shirt... I knew she hated me and is telling me to divorce you!!!' If your wife is similar, it might be that she's focused on some sort of trivial or non-existent conflict.

...and...um...if your wife agrees with any of the items in the above list...I'm kind of curious - I've always assumed that the in-law stuff was straight-up crazy, but it might be more typical than I'd been assuming. 

...not that it matters...if she can't get along with your daughter...that's a dealbreaker. In the end, it doesn't matter if it is cultural or a single messed-up person, letting your wife avoid your daughter isn't right.

--Argyle


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## orbitary (Feb 18, 2013)

argyle said:


> ...one other thought, perhaps foolish, if your wife accepted your daughter at one point, perhaps some sort of conflict has occurred? It might be reasonable to ask her - my wife has dealt similarly with other people in the past.
> 
> ...albeit, in our case, I believe this to be less cultural than paranoia occasioned by mental illness...which has amplified many non-issues into life-or-death struggles in her mind. I could be wrong - as there seems to be a theme in her family of discordant in-law relationships.
> 
> ...


Hi Argyle-
There wasn't a conflict with her and my daughter. My daughter came over one night, and I made a joke of some sort that my wife didn't like. It was then that her friend called her, and after that she left. It wasn't intended to be a harsh joke, more 'cute' than anything, but I think that she totally misunderstood the intent. After that, she never hung around me & my daughter. The joke had something to do with the fact that my wife painted some of the furiture without telling me- I really didnt mind that she did that, but decided to joke about it. my mistake.

I dont have the same experience with my inlaws as you do. I mean, my wife is really worried about what they think and how they view us- as she is worried about how her friends view us, but rarely brings any gifts for them. Her dad is visiting from Korea, I've visited him a couple times. Hard for us to talk, though..

When I let her know that I feel that the marriage counselor will tell her things that she will not want to hear- she did take that as a confrontation, and was ready to go to war. I appeased things but man...I have really gotta watch my words, or else the arguing unleashes. I'm not afraid to argue, just sick of it.

Today I mentioned to her that we need to talk soon about the situation with my daughter. The first thing that she said is that I dont understand her feelings- I was at work so I said 'Im not saying anything, except that we need to talk about this soon'. It still pissed her off that I presented it like that but she knows its coming.

I would like to ask her about your bullet points above, about the in-laws and such. We'll see if I can get those things in front of her and get some answers.

Last night, I talked to her on the finances. It didn't go well, but I did drop the bomb about it on her. Felt better afterwards because I got it off my chest. I just learned that it is her lifes dream to stay at home and not work. I let her know that maybe we can have that someday, but as for now we need to work together, and that's just the way that it is. I think that she listened, but she has also become more distant.

For the mental stuff, Ive asked her if we can try to get some prozac prescribed- she says no. I get confused if she is clinically depressed or if she was just raised this way and has had to land in the real world recently. I can have sympathy, but I would sure like to figure this crap out. Anyway, my foot is coming down, a day at a time.

Sorry if I didnt get to respond to everything, busy day at the office.
Thanks


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...everyone's different...so your experiences probably and hopefully will be different from mine. 

...regarding the MC, the way they tend to structure things is to tilt as far as reasonably possible against the saner partner and let you build trust and demonstrate a willingness to change. Eventually, everyone's issues get dealt with... It may not be productive to tell her that the MC will be on your side...as no one wants to walk into a group bashing session...it might even be productive to let her complain for a while.

...I understand and sympathize with being sick of arguing (oh, so very, very much). That said, my experience is that, long-term, appeasing makes things worse. Hearing her out, trying to understand and empathize where she's coming from...great. Giving in or making nice to get her to be quiet...not so much. I would be careful of that. My experience, when I can't manage empathy or assertiveness, is that aggression and leaving the vicinity works better than passivity. 'You are insane and disrespectful. I won't waste my time talking to you. I'm out of here.' I guess that you both will need to compromise and find some ways to communicate that work for both of you - it isn't going to be your wife communicating like you do.

...it would be good to take the time to understand and listen openly to her feelings about your daughter...y'know, ask what's going on...avoid judging...and be open. I would recommend doing this at a time when you're feeling calm and happyish, as what you hear will probably be really aggravating.* But, it works best to just accept that her feelings and beliefs are actually her beliefs, for as far as you can give the benefit of the doubt. Truth is, if she says it is cultural - it probably is - even if it is pretty bad. And, if she says she feels a certain way, she probably does.

...while I'd be grateful for your assessment, my wife would probably react badly to direct questioning about those bullet points unless I was pretty diplomatic.

...don't know if it helps...but most of the Korean women we know have chosen to go back to work really early because they find staying at home in America absolutely miserable. Albeit, some of them have real trouble accepting anything that isn't fairly high status. But, she'll probably be much happier with the right job.

...probably a bit of both...and...careful of the medication - it might be best to have her see a competent psychologist and find out if they recommend drugs - then see a competent psychiatrist. It took about 3 years of absolute torture, accompanied by substantial weight gain (which depressed my wife), to get to a pill combination that isn't markedly worse than nothing. The antipsychotics completely zombied her, one of the sleeping pills resulted in persistent dysphoria (black depression and continuous rage fits), and most of the anti-depressants didn't do much but help her gain weight. Seroquel and St. John's Wort seem to help a bit though. YMMV, but I've been completely unimpressed by psychiatric medications so far - and at least one psychiatrist seemed to mostly dose her at random to see what happened.

...regarding the money, have you scheduled a second discussion where you talk about goals and budgets and compromise on how you're going to achieve them?

...one thing my wife's parents have tried to teach me is the art of moving around a discussion...like going out to dinner or a walk when things get too heated...or reframing the issue when my wife gets stuck...it may help to try interacting with your FIL, unless the language barrier is too steep. 

--Argyle
*For example, the part where my wife, and wife's family, chooses playdates to avoid multiracial exposure - as they worry about kids being willing to marry non-Koreans.


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