# Parenting a disturbed child who is not my own



## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

(Didn't sleep last night, would be grateful for a sensible ear on this one).

Brief background

My niece (my brothers only child age 15)
Her mother is a very low functioning alcoholic, about 7 years ago she went on the run from social services after they attempted to take both my niece and her step sister into care. My niece has been sexually abused by her step dad (who was arrested and convicted to having indecent images on his computer). I also believe her mother is a prostitute. She has been physically assaulted and neglected by her mother. Her maternal grandmother emotionally abuses her. She is on the 'at risk register' but for some reason social services have placed her back with her mother in an attempt to keep the family together (step sister) :frown2:. We communicate regularly with SS but they have been seriously inadequate and do not intervene other than visit the house and offer her mother parenting courses - which she agrees to but never attends. 

Every other weekend she visits her dad (my brother) but he works 7 days a week. He spends every evening in the pub (this is the only thing he ever does with her). His annual leave is saved for holidays with his new wife who refuses to take my niece with them. She never gets a holiday. Because of my brothers heavy drinking he never has any money - he is also bankrupt so has no access to credit. 

For the past few years it was my mother that looked after her when she visits. Now my mother is older with health issues she hasn't the same energy to keep my niece entertained so I agreed to let her be part of our family when she comes to visit. Wherever we go she comes with us. I think I had some image of me saving the day with my excellent parenting skills......teaching her another way of life. I very quickly became No.1 Auntie.

I have hugely enjoyed bonding with her and she has come to feel like a daughter to me. I worry about her immensely when she goes home. She talks to me about everything. The first thing she does when her dad picks her up is ring me to see if she can hang out with us. Our house has become like home to her. If there are issues at school she rings me not her mother to help her out. She talks often about coming to live with us full time and although I am not completely opposed to this there are many things that cause me anxiety about the whole thing.

Firstly - her behaviour is really not good (she is aggressive with people in the street), loudly racist, spits in the street, back chats any grown up. She steals anything that isn't nailed down. Her hygiene is appalling regardless of how many 'chats' we have about cleaning her teeth and showering every day. She often smells of BO or urine :surprise:. She wears the same clothes every day, we have a lot of trouble getting them in the wash. Her coat has never been washed and is filthy - for some reason she will not let us wash it or mend the rips. She wears this coat in all weathers and does not like taking it off at all, even in a heat wave. (Any tips on tackling this without shaming?). She is very manipulative and lies like a cheap watch. I really struggle to work out lies from truth. She manipulates my mother into buying her expensive things - these things disappear once she gets home. She refuses to say please or thank you for anything. If I give her anything she always wants a little bit more (receives gifts or money ungratefully). We have tried using usual parenting techniques to instill good behaviour but nothing seems to get through to her. If anything she does it more when she is pulled up on it. I cannot take her into shops because she steals, or she ruins stock. For example she grabbed a brush, ran it through her hair and threw it back on the shelf! :surprise: She refused to pay for it with her own money. I tell her off which leads to her doing it again and again (kind of "you can't tell me what to do"). She often nags for the most expensive thing in the shop and will have a tantrum when we say 'no'.

Secondly - Her diet is reduced to Macdonalds or anything similar. She refuses to eat anything cooked at home. She refuses to eat breakfast and only drinks coke. Her teeth are falling out :surprise:. One reason she was nearly taken into care was because there was never any food in the house and it has made her eating habits very restricted. As my own family doesn't eat junk it can be very draining constantly looking for fast food restaurants. We have tried all the usual things to encourage her to eat normally. She will literally go all day without eating a thing. (Any tips on this?). Financially I am finding this very draining.

Thirdly - I consider her friends very undesirable people to have around me and my (nice) family. Her friends look like this - Pregnant at 13, drug taker with a father who is a dealer, shoplifter, all have been in serious trouble of some kind. Boyfriend can barely string coherent words together and is very disrespectful towards adults. (Am I being intolerant or snobbish?)

This summer I have spent nearly every day with her and for the first time I am a bit relieved that it is our last day and yet I am anxious to send her back to her mother. Entertaining her has been very stressful. She refuses to take part in anything educational (sits in a chair and sulks if we go to galleries or museums). I try to educate her but she is not interested in anything. Everything I have taken her to has resulted in some drama or bad behaviour. {exhausted}

My own children are not perfect, but I have never had to deal with this type of thing. My daughter is 17 and an A grade student (going to uni next year, wants to be a teacher), very polite and sensitive to doing the right thing. I cannot remember the last time I had to pull her up on anything. My son is autistic with his own sensory issues and challenges but very gentle and well behaved. So I feel out of my depth to be perfectly honest. 

Her father is pretty redundant with regards to parenting (I have given up on him).

Anyone else cared for a child with a history of abuse and behavioural problems who can offer me some good advice please? 

Thank you in advance!


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm so sorry you find yourself tangled up in what sounds like a very awful situation!

Many of her behaviors - poor hygiene, bad teeth, hostility, etc. - seem geared to keeping people at a distance. Those are all likely a result of self-protective instincts. Even pedophiles might be turned off by a nasty, smelly, unclean and openly hostile kid. She, sadly, has probably learned that from experience. That coat she hides in all the time and won't allow to be washed? That's her security blanket, a way to keep people from getting too close to her, and a way to disguise anything about herself that might possibly be alluring to creepy perverts. 

My guess is that she's got ODD - oppositional defiant disorder - or something similar. Or, perhaps more than one mental health diagnosis. 

At this point, the only thing that is likely to help her make a change from the path she seems set on is intensive therapy, probably also including medications. And getting her permanently placed with someone who is willing and able to provide a stable home for her. Neither of those is guaranteed to work, but might offer at least some hope. She is, sadly, unlikely to better herself as long as she's living in her mother's environment. Do the family courts where you are permit children above a certain age a say in where they live? In my jurisdiction, a 13 year old can have a say in which parent they live with, and older kids often get the final say as long as there's no clear evidence of their preference being unsafe. Is it possible that your niece could legally opt to live with her father, who might then allow her to live with you?


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Thanks Rowan.

Yes security blanket is a good description. She sleeps with the coat under her pillow. 

She went for therapy very briefly when she was younger which is why she has the adjective 'disturbed' on her SS paperwork. She now refuses to go to any therapy and I have offered to pay for her private therapy (as opposed to that of SS -as she has a great mistrust of anything to do with them). But she refused. 

SS (in their wisdom) decided at the age of 7 to give her a choice as to where she wanted to live. She chose her mother because she wanted to protect her little sister. We offered to take both children (to stop my niece from worrying about her) but SS refused this because she isn't blood related. 

The biggest issues we have, and maybe someone can advise me here, is that she tells me things and then asks me to promise not to tell anyone. This tears me in two because I have a moral responsibility to report anything worrying and yet I don't want her clamming up on me on what's happening at 'home' or having trust issues around me. 

Another thing that is a little concerning is that she sees me as 'mum'. She sometimes calls me 'mum' by mistake and refuses to call me 'Auntie Peacem' when I correct her. She also calls our home 'home' (lets go home). She sometimes calls my daughter 'sister'. I noticed that she leaves a selection of items here and when I try and return them she insists they stay here. She told my mother that she has 'practically moved in with us'. But I think the intensive amount of time I have spent with her made me realise I am not wholly equipped to deal with the level problems she has. In fact I feel exhausted.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

How do you handle her tantrums in the store? (or other tantrums?)

What kind of discipline do you implement? What is done when she disobeys? 

These are unbelievably difficult situations to overcome. Keep in mind, some kids can't be saved.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I have zero personal experience with this.

The only thing I want to say, is be VERY cautious about bringing her into your life and home. You are putting your own kids at risk.
My head is screaming at me, "what if she abuses your autistic son!"


I completely understand that you love her and want to help. Just realize all the energy and love you are spending on her, is less that you can give to your own kids. I have seen this scenario many times and it has never ended well. I hope your situation is different.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Kivlor said:


> How do you handle her tantrums in the store? (or other tantrums?)
> 
> What kind of discipline do you implement? What is done when she disobeys?
> 
> These are unbelievably difficult situations to overcome. Keep in mind, some kids can't be saved.


One situation recently...

She spent her spending money in one go on the first shop. She then wanted a handbag but she had no money. She began nagging and lying and then a tantrum, followed by her running away from us. 

We dealt with it by being firm with 'no' and then taking her home for running away. Shopping trip ended early and she sulked for the rest of the day. It was really stressful for us all and difficult for my daughter to handle because her day was ruined too. The issue is - she never seems to learn from the consequences like other children do. To a point we avoid shops as it seems to trigger something in her.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

peacem said:


> One situation recently...
> 
> She spent her spending money in one go on the first shop. She then wanted a handbag but she had no money. She began nagging and lying and then a tantrum, followed by her running away from us.
> 
> We dealt with it by being firm with 'no' and then taking her home for running away. Shopping trip ended early and she sulked for the rest of the day. It was really stressful for us all and difficult for my daughter to handle because her day was ruined too. The issue is - she never seems to learn from the consequences like other children do. To a point we avoid shops as it seems to trigger something in her.


To a point, it may be good to avoid shops. Then again, to a point, you're missing out on the opportunity to correct the bad behavior, by avoiding it.

She's 15 Peacem, she may be broken entirely. I've seen a few of these. 

Some more questions for you: 

How does she acquire money to pay for things? Is she doing drugs? Does she have a capacity for empathy, or do you think that is missing currently? 

Have you ever raised and trained dogs? 

I'm not sure I'm the right guy for advice here. It's possible that I would advise you use a hammer, when perhaps a scalpel is the right tool for this problem.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

> To a point, it may be good to avoid shops. Then again, to a point, you're missing out on the opportunity to correct the bad behavior, by avoiding it.


I think I agree.



> She's 15 Peacem, she may be broken entirely. I've seen a few of these.


There are many moments where she is very good company too. It is just that she is very different to us and sometimes becomes intimidated or confused at how we interact as a family. We had an on going game where we would teach her a new word every time we saw her (she has very limited vocabulary). She thought this was fun until one day she refused to play. When I talked to her about it she said it was because her friends picked on her for 'talking weird'. As a family we watch documentaries together and talk about politics, go for long walks, museums etc - I thought this would be good for her to see another way of living and interacting, but instead I now see that it makes her feel uncomfortable and alienated. So over the past few weeks I have tried to get to her level with her music, tv tastes, social media etc. Not sure if I succeeded or not.




> How does she acquire money to pay for things?


It's usually small amounts of pocket money collectively given from the whole family



> Is she doing drugs?


Very possibly. Her friends all do drugs. Her mother does drugs.



> Does she have a capacity for empathy, or do you think that is missing currently?


Actually, another poster gave concern for my autistic son. The interesting thing is, she is very, very caring with him. He is none verbal but she takes time to talk to him and is very protective and kind to him.



> Have you ever raised and trained dogs?


Yes. We don't have a dog anymore but we had one we raised from a pup and was the best dog in the world.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

peacem said:


> I think I agree.
> 
> 
> There are many moments where she is very good company too. It is just that she is very different to us and sometimes becomes intimidated or confused at how we interact as a family. We had an on going game where we would teach her a new word every time we saw her (she has very limited vocabulary). She thought this was fun until one day she refused to play. When I talked to her about it she said it was because her friends picked on her for 'talking weird'. As a family we watch documentaries together and talk about politics, go for long walks, museums etc - I thought this would be good for her to see another way of living and interacting, but instead I now see that it makes her feel uncomfortable and alienated. So over the past few weeks I have tried to get to her level with her music, tv tastes, social media etc. Not sure if I succeeded or not.
> ...


Good news! If she has empathy, I think you've got a chance. 

Have you considered setting up opportunities to earn money, and no more "giving" of money? 

Have you talked to her about drugs, and the dangers associated? Do you think she brings any on your property? If you're unaware of the dangers of Marijuana--which is the most benign of illegal drugs--look up Civil Asset Forfeiture, so you can explain to her that the activity puts the family at great risk. 

Ok, so now this is where I'm probably going off the rails--so if it sounds bad, just don't do it--but here's where the dog question comes in:

When you train dogs, you provide strong, consistent structure to their lives. You reward good behavior, you correct bad. Constantly. Until their nature has been altered. 

This child may benefit from strong, consistent structure, similar to how a puppy does. Of course, she may push back all the harder against it.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

> Have you considered setting up opportunities to earn money, and no more "giving" of money?


Yes this is definitely something we should do, particularly in the holidays when she has plenty of time. I think we have shy-ed away from it in the past because when she is home with her mother she is pretty much in charge of everything. She is responsible for her younger sister and basic things around the house. According to SS the house is a constant mess because her mother doesn't do anything at all (which is why she is happy in dirty clothes and only eats fast food). Looking at it from a different perspective, rather than protecting her and trying look after her needs we should encourage better living skills and pay her for it.:smile2:



> Have you talked to her about drugs, and the dangers associated? Do you think she brings any on your property? If you're unaware of the dangers of Marijuana--which is the most benign of illegal drugs--look up Civil Asset Forfeiture, so you can explain to her that the activity puts the family at great risk.


We talk about it all the time and have told SS about the kind of people she is hanging out with and being exposed to drugs in her home. If they were serving her well they would have removed her from the home and school to live in our village where drugs are considerably rare (afaik - nice rural, middle class area). But instead one of the conditions of her mother keeping her children was she is not allowed to move nor move schools (she has a history of moving every 6 months). I understand consistency is good for them but the drug risk is high if she stays in that area and in a poor school where drugs are rife. We talk and advise - all we can do. 





> When you train dogs, you provide strong, consistent structure to their lives. You reward good behavior, you correct bad. Constantly. Until their nature has been altered.


Yes you are right. But the issue we have is in the past she has not visited us for months and months because she sulks and feels victimized if we tell her off. Because we think her visitations with us are really important in showing her another way to live (just eating at a table was an alien concept) there is a certain amount of walking on eggshells. The last thing we want is to push her away, back to her mother. Although her life there is without doubt abusive and neglectful, in a way that is her sense of belonging and her comfort zone. Our aim is for her to eventually live with her dad (or maybe us) long term. So we walk a thin line of welcoming her and yet dealing with her behaviour. 

Thank you for your advice - it is good to read from an outsiders perspective.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

I would not recommend that you bring her to live with you. Even if you want to save her. She is dealing with a lot of problems and I don't think you can really deal with her on a regular long term basis. You are not accustom to kids like her and it would upset the balance of your family. It would also put a lot of strain on your daughter and marriage eventually. 

What you are doing now is very commendable , you are offering her a safe place to rest. 

Now my story is not so bad as this, but I used to run away to my grandmother's brother house every weekend to get away from my mum. It was the best thing that could happen to me. But even abuse kids love their parents and start missing them. It's f'ed up but bonds are strong.

She is trying to protect herself as best as she can. The dirty clothes, the coat and rude behavior. If people stay away they can't hurt her. It is also a form of hoarding, keeping things close to you so that, you don't lose them. Because you have so little, everything means a lot. 

I bet the mum is selling the stuff she takes home. Just keep letting her know that she is safe in your home and no-one will hurt her. Keep the shopping to a minimum, it will reduce the tension in your house and keep the peace.

Keep reinforcing the house rules, so that, she understands when she is there the rules are to be followed. make sure your daughter is also following the same rules. Clean clothes, bath, brush teeth and eating home cooked meals. Going hungry for a few hours is not going to hurt her and no sodas in the house. You are retraining her. 

Good luck. Remember to take care of yourself. You can only do what you can.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i have some experience with this... i am currently raising my niece, 16. she will be with us until she graduates high school, and then for however long it takes her to decide what she wants to do in life. 

her mother, my half sister, is a recovering meth addict who lost custody of her. from the time she was seven until she got to us late last year, my niece suffered CSA, physical abuse at the hands of multiple men and women, abandonment, emotional abuse, etc. pretty much had a taste of all that crappy life has to offer. she regularly had all of her possessions taken away and sold, told she was useless, a *****, etc. 

anyway, the behaviors that we have dealt with are compulsive lying, self destructive behaviors such as cutting, hypersexuality, temper tantrums, disrespect of authority, rebellion, manipulation, etc. pretty much the stuff you might expect from someone who was raised to believe that nobody really cares about them at all. i remember the first time i sat down and talked to her when i got back from afghanistan... she cried. nobody had ever just listened to her before. 

what has worked for us has been pretty much not telling her she is not allowed to do anything. instead, we just tell her that we will not support certain behaviors and will actively seek to discourage them. we dont care if she is a liar. we dont care if she feels horny whenever she sees a boy. when we catch her in a lie, we will provide a consequence that is unpleasant, but temporary. we will provide her with the means to communicate electronically, but we will monitor all of those electronic communications. consequences may be restriction of phone privileges(we control that), or restriction from internet(we control the wifi and router) or refusal to take her shopping for a week. basically, something that she wont like, but as a temporary thing. at no point will we ever tell her she is not allowed to do something, since we cannot control her actions anyway. i mean, if she decides she is going to slip out of school to go have sex with a boy, we cant really stop her. If she does stuff like that, we will simply find out what WE can do about it, and we implement that consequence.

now, once the consequence has been applied, she gets another chance to try and do right. sometimes, we will let her mess up a few times in a row, with the warning that the third time in a month, we will come up with a more unpleasant consequence. also, sometimes we will give her a way to make up for a deeply ingrained negative behavior, such as rolling her eyes whenever an adult is talking to her. basically, we understand that it is a habit that she wont be able to break over night. but, since it is disrespectful and will do nothing but cause her strife in life, we actively discourage it by limiting the things we are willing to do for her, UNLESS... she is willing to apologize for it on the spot, when it is either called out or she catches herself doing it. 

our philosophy is, why stress ourselves out trying to control her actions when we can just control our own in response to her? we dont have to do anything to support the negative behaviors. i would rather just talk to her and get to know her, and let her know that i will not support her disrespect. if i think she might get butt hurt by not being able to get something at a store, i tell her ahead of time that we wont be getting her anything at that store, and that its ok with me if she gets upset about that. it wont bother me at all if she gets upset. she has a right to throw a temper tantrum. it is, after all, her body that she controls. she has an innate right to do whatever the hell she wants. and i have a right to provide a consequence that is within my means to provide. 

something that is key... whatever consequence you find yourself needing to implement, do your best to make sure it is clearly stated ahead of time. that is not always possible as new issues arise, so when they do, let her know how YOU are going to respond the next time it happens. if she freaks out at a store and you suddenly decide to never take her to a store again, then you pretty much blindsided her. she didn't know that freaking out will get her forever excluded from a family event. she will see it as another form of abandonment. but, if she hears ahead of time that you will exclude her from the NEXT outing, or that she will lose some privilege at home as a TEMPORARY consequence, then she will know that even if she messes up, she can try again. its not the end of the world. she isn't getting abandoned. just disciplined. that is a MUCH easier pill to swallow to someone who has been abandoned before, especially if they think that they themselves are the reason that people keep abandoning them. the truth is, whoever abandons someone is the reason they were abandoned. it is not a choice they made.

that is it in a nutshell. we dont try to control her. we focus on controlling us, and getting on with our lives, while letting her join us if she chooses. 

she has been with us for about nine months now, and is doing pretty good. her issues today are mostly just typical teenage drama. she finished the school year last year on the AB honor role, recently double belt tested in her martial arts class, and we are really looking forward to how she will do this year.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> i have some experience with this... i am currently raising my niece, 16. she will be with us until she graduates high school, and then for however long it takes her to decide what she wants to do in life.
> 
> her mother, my half sister, is a recovering meth addict who lost custody of her. from the time she was seven until she got to us late last year, my niece suffered CSA, physical abuse at the hands of multiple men and women, abandonment, emotional abuse, etc. pretty much had a taste of all that crappy life has to offer. she regularly had all of her possessions taken away and sold, told she was useless, a *****, etc.
> 
> ...


Excellent advice! Thank you so much. I will cut and paste this to think about later. We will see her again at the weekend.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Also just a reminder (not sure if I mentioned it) she has a history of shoplifting - hence shopping 'triggers' her. We are going to a sculpture park this weekend. But will keep retail to a minimum.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

What does she do when she is "triggered" by shopping?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> What does she do when she is "triggered" by shopping?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for getting back to me! It is her birthday in a few weeks and we are planning a shopping trip to the city so she can spend her birthday money. It will be a good opportunity to improve things...

When we go shopping anywhere for anything she finds it almost painful to leave a shop without buying at least 1 thing, even if it is a shop that is wholly inappropriate (a DIY store for example). She will lie about needing something for a school project, she needs it for home, her dad asked her to buy one. In the past my mother (who used to look after her) who just give in because she felt sorry for her, it was only cheap, or genuinely believed what she was saying.

I am a lot stricter in saying 'no' so although she loves me and wants to be part of her family shopping creates a lot of conflict and what are normally relaxing family days out becomes a battle of wills.

She turned up unexpectedly the night before a family trip. The trip involved art gallery for my daughter, history museum for me and a bit of shopping to finish the day off. I said she was welcome to come with us but we will be going to galleries and a museum (she finds these boring). She agreed and was enthusiastic. Bless her she turned up in the morning looking pristine, really excited as she had never been to this particular city. Good as gold traveling - lots of fun.

When we got there the first drama was over lunch. We don't eat in fast food restaurants and we had already told her where we were eating and that she will have to find something to eat there. She agreed. However, once we were there she refused to choose anything, she wouldn't even look at the menu. We took her to a grocery store and told her she could anything there. She just wandered around shrugging her shoulders and pouting. We were there probably about an hour trying to find something she would eat (in the whole store!).

We eventually left and she sulked quite badly complaining that she was hungry because she hadn't eaten breakfast, my daughter was losing patience with her. My husband gave in and found a burger king because he couldn't bare the thought of her being hungry and was worried about it ruining my daughters day out. A big chunk of the day was taken just by feeding her.

We then went to the art gallery and museum. She found a chair and pouted and sulked, she refused to talk to us - she wouldn't even walk round with us. Complaining (rather loudly) that this was boring! (She knew we would be doing this beforehand). Because she was bored her attention seeking behaviour kicked in. A lady accidentally caught her on her ankle with a pushchair. She apologised but my niece became aggressive and angry with the lady and I had to remove her from the building. :surprise:

We then did the shopping. The first thing my niece wanted to do was find a makeup shop, she spent ALL her money in one go here. I did warn her not to spend it all but she was adamant that she needed everything she bought. She then asked if she could go into Victoria;s Secret. She wanted to show me a sweater that she liked. Then the manipulation tactics started; ALL her friends have this jumper, they bully her because she doesn't have anything from VS, her mum never buys her new clothes, her dad won't go shopping with her, her dad will pay me back, she will do chores to pay me back - so on and so forth. Every time I said 'no' she would pout, circle around the shop and then go back to the sweater. In the end she flounced out of the shop in temper. 

My daughter had taken her own birthday money to spend and was looking at clothes. This was triggering jealousy in my niece because she didn't have any money left. I explained that it was birthday money that had been given by her family. My niece then started with 'I don't have family that will give me money - it's not fair!'. So my daughter wouldn't spend her own money because she didn't want to trigger jealousy in her cousin. But later my daughter was annoyed that she didn't get to spend her money like we planned (she loves her but sometimes resents her behaviour). 

I bought myself a pot of face cream, so then my niece was accusing me of spending all my money on myself "just like my mum":surprise:. When we got to the train station I said they could chose a snack for the journey home - she chose the biggest most expensive box of sweets in the store (like something you would buy as a gift). I think was her way of compensating herself for not getting the sweater. At this point I was so weary I agreed as long as she shared (to be fair she did share it in the end). 

I know there are many things we could of done better but she grinds us down to the point of the whole day being ruined for everyone.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Alert the Vatican, we've got a candidate for sainthood!!


Wow, peacem, you are going above and beyond. Watch out, that this doesn't start to eradicate your own family love and bonds.


It's terrible what this girl has been through. She IS to be pitied, and helped. But not at the expense of your family unit. I bet your daughter doesn't really like her; but is following the party line and saying that she "loves her". Who could love this girl? She doesn't sound the slightest bit lovable.

Any of the behavior you describe her doing; my mother would have dismantled me on the spot. I marvel at how sweet and patient and generous you are being.

And I know that the movie ending, is that your niece responds to all the love and care that you guys are sharing with her, and you all live happily ever after.

In real life, I think she needs professional care. She is still a dependent minor; how can she refuse treatment?

It sounds like she needs medication; at least temporarily, to control her mood swings and lack of impulse control.

As'ladain mentioned that his niece was sexually active. Is this girl? Does she need to be put on b.c. to avoid an unwanted pregnancy? Can you imagine her as a mother?

Rotten teeth, at 15? Could she be using meth? That is one of the hallmark indicators.

Being practical, she may have abscessed dental caries. She needs a dental exam. Will SS pay for this? It could be quite costly if she needs multiple fillings.


How is this affecting you financially?

How is this affecting the relationship with your husband?


It's great to help; but I think you need to get the professionals to do the heavy lifting on this one.

Sorry you've been put in this difficult situation.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

peacem said:


> Thanks for getting back to me! It is her birthday in a few weeks and we are planning a shopping trip to the city so she can spend her birthday money. It will be a good opportunity to improve things...
> 
> When we go shopping anywhere for anything she finds it almost painful to leave a shop without buying at least 1 thing, even if it is a shop that is wholly inappropriate (a DIY store for example). She will lie about needing something for a school project, she needs it for home, her dad asked her to buy one. In the past my mother (who used to look after her) who just give in because she felt sorry for her, it was only cheap, or genuinely believed what she was saying.
> 
> ...


Good job staying firm on saying No to her. Keep it up. Consistency is a great disciplinarian, all on its own.

Could you take your daughter shopping privately? If not, the next time you go and she wants to spend her money, ignore your niece's sulking. Life does not go exactly the way any of us wants. We all adjust. Could be a way for her to become less materialistic, too. I bet she will thank you later for that.

Also, you and your husband need to be a united front on the restaurants. If you do not eat fast food in your family, no amount of sulking on the niece's part should earn her fast food. If she does not eat at a meal, she waits until the next one. She will learn soon enough.

Last thing: It is good she shared the box of sweets. But it would have been better to tell her a small size or nothing. Don't let your weariness be used against you. If she is told a small size or nothing, and you hold firm, she will learn soon enough.

Again, consistency in saying No and simply sticking to it is really all you need, as you are already quite reasonable in your structure. 

And I am sure your own daughter is quite lovely. She certainly has a fine example in you. 
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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> Good job staying firm on saying No to her. Keep it up. Consistency is a great disciplinarian, all on its own.
> 
> Could you take your daughter shopping privately? If not, the next time you go and she wants to spend her money, ignore your niece's sulking. Life does not go exactly the way any of us wants. We all adjust. Could be a way for her to become less materialistic, too. I bet she will thank you later for that.
> 
> ...


This, pretty much. 

If she wants to go hungry, it's her choice. Whenever you tell her she can get something, put a limit on it. For instance, my niece doesn't have much in the way of clothes. So, we regularly go out and get her more clothes when we get paid. But, there is always a monetary limit on it. She can only spend so much, so she has to decide what she actually wants. 

She sulked, threw a fit, etc, the first couple times. Then she just accepted it. Lately, she has started expressing guilt about the money we spend on her. She has never felt guilty about people buying her stuff before. Before she came to us, she knew that anything she got anyway would just be taken away from her later on.

So far as food, again, jld is spot on. She doesn't have to like the food, but if she KNOWS she will go hungry if she refuses to eat, she wI'll likely start eating what is offered to her. 

Let her sulk if she wants. If it really doesn't bother you, or you can at least carry on like it doesn't bother you, then she will see that. She will see that sulking won't get her more attention. 

And again, make sure you and your husband are on the same page. If you arent, she will play one of you against the other.
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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

She sounds exactly like a girl I worked with for a few years. Borderline personality disorder, low functioning. There really isn't much you can do except minimize the damage, there is NO undoing it.

Hygiene: this is a common problem with kids who have been sexually abused while living in very unsafe conditions. The personal filth is their way of keeping the predators from going at her. 

Food: Hording food and having restrictive requirements are also very common among kids who have been raised in substance abuse/abusive homes. Fast food means not only food but love because someone had to buy that food for her or give her money to get that food.

Stealing, dishonesty, lack of boundaries, creating unsafe situations for your kids... These are all part and parcel of trying to parent a teen with borderline personality disorder. Personally, I wouldn't bring a child like that into my home unless my kids were older than the child.

It sounds like your not in the US so I can't say what DSS should do according to your countries rules and regs of child advocacy but labeling her as disturbed serve zero purpose. If she is diturbed what is being done to settle her? More of the same? How can the Constance of inconsistency settle her? What skills will she need to have to become a functioning adult? Who can teach her these skills? 

That girl I worked with who was exactly like your niece, left foster care, lived on the streets for a year conning churches and charities to give her money for hotel rooms saying she was pregnant, when she wasn't. Conned the parents of a boy that he was the father, when she wasn't even pregnant...I could go on and on...that was 10 years ago when she left care and since then she's had 3 kids all of whom have been removed from her care.

You and your mother are enabling your brothers appalling neglect of his responsibilities to his daughter. 

Next time she wants to come stay with you she must agree to ground rules and you must be prepared to take her back to your bother...and you will have to do this.

1. No fast food. Period. If she doesn't want to eat the food prepared for the family she goes hungry or gets herself her own food, and then you will have to ensure anyone with cash has their cash in a safe place.

2. Clean clothing every day. Clean PJ's every night. Clean Panties every night. (The panties are the more troubling issue) she changes into PJ's and you take her dirty clothing away to be washed. This is not a choice. If she wants to stay with you she will have to accept cleanliness is required.

3. You must watch her get into the shower and tell her you will smell her head when she gets out and if she's not clean she's going back into the shower. Sounds like a horrible intrusion but this forced cleanliness is the ONLY way to get them clean.

4. List the skills she will need to have when she turns 18. Does she know how to cook? How to shop for inexpensive food? How to keep a budget? How to access public transportation? How to open a bank account? How to apply for a job? How to structure her day around work schedule? There are many more but these are the skills you can teach her. You can't undo the damage and make her "undisturbed" 

These poor kids are a great big black hole of need, never ending need. There is no meeting her needs because she has never had her needs met. Instead of feeling safe, she got fed. Instead of feeling safe, she learned to stay dirty to keep herself safe. Instead of learning to trust, she learned to lie. 

I'm so sorry for this girl, but your brother needs a big kick in the ass...a few times.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Wow. My approach with my niece was very different. 

And the results have been very different too. She is starting to ask those introspective questions that are required for growth. 

Over the summer, we let her visit her mother in florida for a little while. Her mother then decided to tell us that there is no way her daughter is staying down there. She will do anything to make sure she goes back up with us. In her eyes, her daughter is a completely different person than she was just a year ago. 

I cannot buy into the idea that anyone is just permanently messed up. 

If you emplacement all those conditions as requirements to not be excluded from the family, it's setting them up to be abandoned again. What happens when she rebels and becomes defiant? Because she most likely will at some point, as it is her habit to do so. If you aren't willing to stick to your guns, then you have just told them through your actions that your word is not solid. If you DO stick to your guns, then you have abandoned them again. 

If you want them to shower and change into clean clothes, then require that behavior as a prerequisite for providing the extra privilege. 

It's like this: my niece likes to browse the internet when she gets home from school. If she doesn't keep the electronic devices out in the living room where we can see her activity and talk to her about it at any time, then we will not provide her with access to the internet. 

She used to steal stuff from around the house. So, we told her that we will do random room inspections and would remove the door to her room for a few days every time we found something that didn't belong to her. 

The negative behaviors dropped off pretty quick when she realized that she couldn't get us to kick her out/abandon her, but she COULD get us to apply an unpleasant consequence to her negative behaviors.
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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

> I'm so sorry for this girl, but your brother needs a big kick in the ass...a few times


 @ Anonpink

This is the major problem that I cannot find a solution to. Here's the thing.

My mother is in complete denial about his alcohol problem (he is likely to be an alcoholic but a high functioning one). She actually says he is the best dad in the world but a victim of his ex (we are all staggered by this). He works hard, drinks hard. He never has any money and my mother funds this by giving him money (but she justifies this as helping him). She gave him money for a holiday - he booked the holiday but excluded his daughter. My father is far, far more savvy and on the ball with what is going on with him but my mum gives him money in secret and covers up for him. We have had meeting upon meeting - even with SS.

He drink drives. He never does anything with his daughter other than 'lets' her sit in the pub with him. At home he drinks. She has told me that she hates being with him because he and his wife argue all the time over money.

IMO - She shouldn't be with him at all, particularly because of the drink driving. This is why when she visits we keep her with us as much as possible. We have had huge rows with my brother, involved social services, diplomatic chats, got other family members involved but he has completely given up on her (he used those exact words to my husband). We even have a barrister in the family who specialises in family law to help him pick up the pieces but he refused FREE legal help. Barrister relative called me to ask 'what is wrong with your brother?'. Even he couldn't get through to him.

So when she visits I do as much with her as possible to keep her safe and away from alcohol and arguing. We stock pile sanitary products and toiletries (because nobody will buy them for her but us). We make sure she visits the dentist (she never goes with her parents and her teeth are breaking). We are even taking her to visit some colleges near by to discuss her options when she leaves school next year. (Nobody will do that). 

I have sleepless nights worrying about her, particularly when she goes 'home'. When she is with us she becomes anxious for her step sister who is left with her mother. We have offered to have her sister come stay but SS have said no to this because we are not family and she is 'at risk'.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

As'laDain, I think our versions of providing structure are very similar. We differ on 1 consequence and while I believe you are absolutely right, in this instance peacem's other kids must be safe. If the neice is creating unsafe situations, and at her age she can really create some very unsafe situations, peacem's first duty is to protect her kids.

Peacem, you have to focus on what you can have influence and impact on. 

What skills does she need to have to be safe? Teach her those skills. Teach her how to de-escalate confrontations, how to resolve conflict, how to remove herself from drama.

Excellent job (or as you Aussies say Good on Ya) on getting her ready for college. If college is a real potential for her, what skills will she need to succeed there? Research college drop out causes in your country. Affiliation, or lack of, is a big factor in freshman drop out. What does she need to learn to make new friends, to fit in or be cool with who she is now?

You can't change where she comes from. She has been dealing with this her whole life and she has some street skills as a result. The goal is to help her cope with what she cannot change, and to recognize the difference between normal fvcked up home life and dangerous home life.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

I haven't really heard anything that might put peacem's kids at risk of harm... 

As for my niece, she has stabbed someone in the chest before. But, he was beating the crap out of her and her mother. When a twelve year old girl is willing to drive a steak knife down to the handle in a grown man's chest, you know things are bad...

She used to get in fights a lot, but that was mostly because of the environment she was in. At first, when she came to us, she would get angry, usually when she thought people were judging her or trying to control her. But, she quickly calmed down when she saw that we really don't judge her. We love her, even if she is acting like a terrible person. Because we know that at any point, she can act like an amazing person. We would just provide some form of consequence and afterwards, tell her that her slate is clean if she wants to try and change the way she handles it next time.

Peacem, AP is right about this: you have to focus on things you can actually have influence and impact on. 

That also means you should not try to change the way she thinks, since you cannot control that. All you can do is introduce her to new ways of thinking. And, likewise, never utter a single consequence that you cannot or will not implement.
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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> I haven't really heard anything that might put peacem's kids at risk of harm...
> 
> As for my niece, she has stabbed someone in the chest before. But, he was beating the crap out of her and her mother. When a twelve year old girl is willing to drive a steak knife down to the handle in a grown man's chest, you know things are bad...
> 
> ...


No she is never aggressive with us at all. Just sulky, pouty and the odd tantrum. She is good around my son and is considerate to his needs (I actually think he is good for her as it brings out the nicer side to her personality and caring nature - I actually wondered if she would make a good nurse?). 

My daughter is a few years older than her and very academic - she looks up to her like a big sister. I think my daughter is a good influence. She does 'normal' childhood things with her like making dens, taking her for long bike rides. She has taught her some good art skills and they sit for hours painting. She also coaches her in maths and english to get her up to speed. I don't worry about my children's safety at all. Now her friends...that's another matter :|


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