# Holding on for heaven?



## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

I thought I would throw this one out there for discussion, not sure if this thread belongs in General Discussion or Relationships and Spirituality. I am choosing General.

A year ago I was seeing a counselor who is a practicing Jew. His approach to me was influenced strongly by how he viewed me as someone with a strong Christian background.

Yes, that last paragraph is relevant.

I have been married 22 years and have held on a lot longer than my counselor thought I should, except for one factor that he thinks has had a heavy influence on my staying with my marriage. He says this --

Evangelical Christians have a tendency to hold on to their marriages not just because they think divorce is wrong -- they have the hope that there is a heaven. Christians are willing to hold on to something that does not make them happy because they have the hope for eternal happiness.. and they do not want to jeopardize that.

How legitimate is that?:scratchhead:


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## dormant (Apr 3, 2012)

It sounds like a fair assessment to me.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Religion is a very strange thing, for that matter what it really comes down to is belief, regardless of what religion you subscribe too, the belief structure that groups of individuals use as their premise for how they view their lives can sometimes look irrational from an outsider. Hey I'm a catholic and to this day i still don't eat meat on friday's during lent....would the world end if i had a burger on fridays...no...but would i still eat it...probably not. if you took away your faith and religion and took an honest look at your relationship would you stay or would you go? sometimes we look at ourselves as something greater then the sum of our parts.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

For me, as a Christian, bye and bye pie in the sky is not a motivation.

My motivation is hope- based on Bible statements about marriage and life- 

that things can improve and be satisfying in the here and now. (Eph 5)
 that God loves us both and is on the side of our M. (Matt 19:6, Mk 10:9)
that trials are character building (Rom 5:3-5)

At times I think of how well loved I am by God despite my weaknesses and I think M is supposed to have that too. I have a Christian responsibility to love despite my spouse's weaknesses and failures.

"Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things..." 1 Cor 13


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

wanttolove said:


> I thought I would throw this one out there for discussion, not sure if this thread belongs in General Discussion or Relationships and Spirituality. I am choosing General.
> 
> A year ago I was seeing a counselor who is a practicing Jew. His approach to me was influenced strongly by how he viewed me as someone with a strong Christian background.
> 
> ...


What do you think? Do you think there is truth to this for you? Do you feel biblically bound to remain married? When you read Blonde's post are you filled with a sense of God's love and thus energized to keep loving your wife? Or do you just have this nagging sense of doom that to call your marriage over would put you on a collision course with ...wrongness.

And what exactly does "wrongness" mean to you? 

Taking the life of another person is wrong. But most religions give you a "get out of hell for free pass" if you were forced to take that life in defense of your own life or lives of those around you. Divorce, according to the bible, is also wrong and will put you on the path to hell unless you have one of those passes in the form of adultery, or abuse (and perhaps 1 or 2 other reasons depending on your particular brand)

As Blonde points out and she is one of the few who walk the talk and it comes straight from her generous and considered heart (and NOT from hellfire and damnation often associated with evangelicals) She is biblically bound to keep loving because to stop loving would put distance between her and God. Heaven and the question of entry is beside the point to her. It is being close to God in the here and now that matters to her not where her soul will travel in the afterlife.

I think the important question for you to answer is are you staying out of love or out of fear of wrongness?

Your therapist seems to think it is the latter.

I think there is a reason why you placed this question here in general and not in spirituality.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

"Accepting and justifying crappy life because there is an imaginary place"

Yeah, he has a point.

Sure I like to think there is paradise and heaven when I die, but my common sense tells me there is VERY little chance of that.

THUS, I accept that I only have 1 shot at life and to make it best that it can be.

It's kind of like saying "live like there is no tomorrow" but remember, 99.99% of the time tomorrow WILL be here, and if it's not, you won't even know it.



I always recommend ignoring dreams......hope......and other imaginary things (to an extent of course).......and simply focus on REALITY/what's right in front of you.

I find that to be the best approach. Older I get, the more BS I see all around....and more I struggle to make sense of these imaginary things that have been sold to me and drilled into me for 3+ decades.

It's simply hard for me to believe in something that I don't see or have good evidence of.

But I do know and accept that people are full of sheeeeeeet/BS. I see evidence of that on daily basis!


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

Wait, am I misunderstanding? Staying in a crappy marriage = getting into heaven? Boy, am I gonna be hot for eternity!  

I thought getting into heaven (by christian standards) = accepting jesus as savior. Or having your name written in a book, depending on what branch of christianity you follow.

Seriously, I know that the bible says you are supposed to stay married and all that jazz, but I have never heard of it being a requirement for getting into heaven. 

Maybe I misunderstood the question. LOL!


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

GA HEART said:


> Wait, am I misunderstanding? Staying in a crappy marriage = getting into heaven? Boy, am I gonna be hot for eternity!
> 
> I thought getting into heaven (by christian standards) = accepting jesus as savior. Or having your name written in a book, depending on what branch of christianity you follow.
> 
> ...


Religion is confusing and an oxymoron (to me). It's hard to understand or make sense of ANY of it. 

This guy can explain it WAY better than me.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

GA HEART said:


> Wait, am I misunderstanding? Staying in a crappy marriage = getting into heaven? Boy, am I gonna be hot for eternity!
> 
> I thought getting into heaven (by christian standards) = accepting jesus as savior. Or having your name written in a book, depending on what branch of christianity you follow.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm not aware of any evangelical Christians who believe that divorce = a greased rocket sled to hell.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Thank you for calling Heaven, all lines are busy right now, please hold


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Almostrecovered said:


> Thank you for calling Heaven, all lines are busy right now, please hold


I would think that the lines would be pretty long too, due to high demand upon death.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

DoF said:


> I would think that the lines would be pretty long too, due to high demand upon death.



well if you read CWI enough you'd think that there'd hardly be any line at all


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Xenote said:


> ....if you took away your faith and religion and took an honest look at your relationship would you stay or would you go? sometimes we look at ourselves as something greater then the sum of our parts.


I have nothing to add to your statement -- I just like the way you expressed your thought! I think you are dead on right.:smthumbup:


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> What do you think? Do you think there is truth to this for you? Do you feel biblically bound to remain married? When you read Blonde's post are you filled with a sense of God's love and thus energized to keep loving your wife? Or do you just have this nagging sense of doom that to call your marriage over would put you on a collision course with ...wrongness.
> 
> And what exactly does "wrongness" mean to you?
> 
> ...


That is a lot of questions. 

One answer I can give to you is that I placed this question in General because I am interested in hearing from a genuine Christian (like Blonde's obviously is) and also from someone like my Jewish friend, who showed me how humanistic even a deeply devoted Jew can be. And I want to hear from a non-believing viewpoint. It's important to me and I hope it is to others.

Blonde's comments and use of scripture interests me because I want to see what my own marital struggles mean to me spiritually. She gave some good scripture references that I need to meditate on.

I honestly don't know where I stand on the heaven issue as it relates to marriage and divorce. When my counselor posed the thought to me, it was something I had not thought about before. I think it probably does influence my reluctance to take a step further towards divorce.. because I thought I would by now. It affects my ability to hope, something that has already been touched on in the comments to this thread, because heaven does extend our hope for something better to come.. because it's promised to us.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

GA HEART said:


> Wait, am I misunderstanding? Staying in a crappy marriage = getting into heaven? Boy, am I gonna be hot for eternity!
> 
> I thought getting into heaven (by christian standards) = accepting jesus as savior. Or having your name written in a book, depending on what branch of christianity you follow.
> 
> ...


No, that thought is there. I was raised with the idea that divorce is wrong, a sin, unless it is due to unfaithfulness (as the Bible does indeed say). There was always that willful sin will send you to hell stigma, be it correct or not. As I grow older, I see that I have needed to question a bit more of what I simply accepted as a youth in church. Most of what was taught to me is correct, but some is opinion taught as truth. Oops.

But that thought of heaven still makes me hold on, not to keep me out of hell, but because of the hope of something better.. even while still on this earth.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

GTdad said:


> Yeah, I'm not aware of any evangelical Christians who believe that divorce = a greased rocket sled to hell.


Haven't spent much time in the Bible belt or southern states, have you? LOL

Ever see a movie called 'Fireproof'? There are TAM people that quote it religiously (pun intended).


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

For what its worth I was raised in a religious environment - however, the good thing was that the religion just helped to make me a better person, a better man. As a better man I make better judgements and decisions with regard to my relationships and the people I care about.

I did not focus on the "heaven awaits thee aspect" or the "expecting miracles aspect" or the "what would Jesus/Moses/Mohammed/Buddha do aspect" but more on the "what's the right thing to do", "respect for others" and "what love really means" aspects brought out by the religious environment I was raised in. So what I am trying to say is that as a devout Christian, there is nothing wrong in drawing on your faith to guide you to do the right thing - by the way, the Jewish faith believes in Heaven too!


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## dazed794 (Aug 31, 2014)

I think that Christians in general hold on to hope which may lead them to staying in marriage (or any other situation) longer than they should. I was raised Christian, and although I do believe in most of the Christian values, I don't believe in any of the supernatural stuff. My wife is a devout believer though. She is very hopeful for things that are bad in life to change. I would consider myself a realist but she calls me pessimistic because I don't share the same hope as her for things that (almost certainly) are not going to change. It isn't necessarily for reward in heaven but that a large portion of the New Testament teaches you to be hopeful. Which IMHO leads one to wait patiently for a situation to improve rather than taking your own life by the reigns and making it better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

wanttolove said:


> Haven't spent much time in the Bible belt or southern states, have you? LOL
> 
> Ever see a movie called 'Fireproof'? There are TAM people that quote it religiously (pun intended).


You kidding me? I'm in Texas fer crissakes. The divorce rate among my Christian friends is as high as among the others.

I'm not even sure they necessarily work that much harder at marriage. And in any event, they can get Forgiveness for any screwup just for the asking.

There may be more peer pressure to stay in a marriage in Christian circles, but even that may be debatable.


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

I think this really points out where RELIGION (NOT spirituality) can be harmful.

I was raised in a HIGHLY religious home. While i am a believer, my veiw of God has changed significantly over the years. The God I was raised with was full of anger and hate, the God I worship now is the REAL deal.....full of forgiveness and love. A God full of anger would punish someone for the sin of divorce, a God full of love would be sad to see someone in a situation beyond their control.....a marriage made of lies, teenage decisions that were way off, or maybe just two people who ended up being not as compatible as they thought and are both miserable. God does not want us to be miserable in order to "keep his laws." He wants us to equip ourselves and LEARN from our mistakes.....to continue growing and learn HOW to keep his laws. None of us are born knowing it all. And God knows this.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

dazed794 said:


> I think that Christians in general hold on to hope which may lead them to staying in marriage (or any other situation) longer than they should. I was raised Christian, and although I do believe in most of the Christian values, *I don't believe in any of the supernatural stuff. My wife is a devout believer though. She is very hopeful for things that are bad in life to change. I would consider myself a realist but she calls me pessimistic because I don't share the same hope as her for things that (almost certainly) are not going to change.* It isn't necessarily for reward in heaven but that a large portion of the New Testament teaches you to be hopeful. Which IMHO leads one to wait patiently for a situation to improve rather than taking your own life by the reigns and making it better.


Oh my goodness do I think LIKE YOU...that's me.. I tried to be a christian for many years but the cold hard truth of it is.. I was always a common sense Realist underneath it all & I bulked at the idea of anything supernatural .... 

Truth is...I have seen too many people HURT, let down, holding on to faith where it would have been better to "ACCEPT" what was...and move on from it....the fall would have been so much easier...I've seen many loose their faith over it even..

It can be taken to extremes with some... I work for a Preacher Lady....she is an Evangelist even.. days ago , she called me into her study and told me how she got $900 from __Treasury.gov & how I need to go there , punch in my name...I gave some pessimistic response , I was smiling ...but didn't feel I'd find my name there..... she seemed almost annoyed with me.... which she has done on other occasions where I feel she is off in the clouds somewhere "Just believe God sister, have some faith" to some things I have thrown at her....and I am thinking









...I do tend to stand there & argue with her.. she has ended it sometimes how she will pray for me... We still like each other but she thinks I am a lost hard head. 

Our mindsets have different foundations... for christians...they Pray, they believe, they endure hardships with a  against all odds ....then when it doesn't work out... it (suddenly) wasn't God's will....

For many of us....it's reason.. We weigh the everyday odds that are right in front of us... or history has given us a clue to someone's behavior, what are the odds THEY will change, how bad is it... balancing the logical with our feelings also...... how we are treated in all of these things ...and also what we have done to bring about change -for mutual understanding & getting back on the same page.....

And with all this..we make the BEST choice in light of our life/ future and to all those it may affect (children etc)...

I am one who feels our own personal Happiness *IS* worth something.. I wouldn't stay where I didn't feel loved & cherished if I so wanted to give of myself like this...but was met with coldness / distance / giving a finger to my needs & what mattered to me... I'd see that as a breakage of the intended vows... 

I'd love to believe there is a Heaven.. beautiful thought, to see my dear Grandmother again.. or when myself & H are separated from this life.. but I just don't know..



> *manfromlamancha said*: For what its worth I was raised in a religious environment - however, the good thing was that the religion just helped to make me a better person, a better man. As a better man I make better judgements and decisions with regard to my relationships and the people I care about.
> 
> I did not focus on the "heaven awaits thee aspect" or the "expecting miracles aspect" or the "what would Jesus/Moses/Mohammed/Buddha do aspect" but more on the "what's the right thing to do", "respect for others" and "what love really means" aspects brought out by the religious environment I was raised in. So what I am trying to say is that as a devout Christian, there is nothing wrong in drawing on your faith to guide you to do the right thing - by the way, the Jewish faith believes in Heaven too!


I have a # of friends in real life who are very much like you... they have been influenced in a good way.. having church / fellowship in their lives has been a good thing...I would even say this about our oldest son.. I can respect that


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

GA HEART said:


> I think this really points out where RELIGION (NOT spirituality) can be harmful.
> 
> I was raised in a HIGHLY religious home. While i am a believer, my veiw of God has changed significantly over the years. The God I was raised with was full of anger and hate, the God I worship now is the REAL deal.....full of forgiveness and love. A God full of anger would punish someone for the sin of divorce, a God full of love would be sad to see someone in a situation beyond their control.....a marriage made of lies, teenage decisions that were way off, or maybe just two people who ended up being not as compatible as they thought and are both miserable. God does not want us to be miserable in order to "keep his laws." He wants us to equip ourselves and LEARN from our mistakes.....to continue growing and learn HOW to keep his laws. None of us are born knowing it all. And God knows this.


If there is a god, it's CERTAINLY a man. Cause only a man can **** things up like this (based on results we have on this planet

I also don't like people telling me what to do and how to live my life. I'm smart enough to figure out right from wrong myself at this point.


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## dormant (Apr 3, 2012)

I believe that "God's Will" and "Being Forgiven" are just ways for someone to not take responsibility for their own actions. We are each responsible for our own actions and should take the consequences for their own actions. Believing “All is Forgiven” is just a cop out.

I was taken to church until around the age of 17, and I just don’t buy it.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

The predominate flavor I'm used to are the "once saved always saved" Baptists. The way I understand it, a divorce would not mean hell at all; that sure, depending on circumstances it may be a sin but certainly not one that's unforgivable. 

Are there denominations which teach that divorce means a one-way ticket to the Lake O'Fire?


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Hope Springs Eternal - Reformation21

"Hope Springs Eternal"

No matter how dire things seem to be, there is hope that tomorrow will be better.

Whether one has cancer, addictions, or a bad marriage. Hope is what helps us function to get through the day...

Many of us hang on to situations way longer than we should. Sometimes hope is a good thing. If we can weather the storm, there will be a sunny day soon...

The link is a very short read...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If that's the case I will be the Donald Trump of Heaven when I croak with enough real estate holdings There to last me awhile 

I kind of doubt it, seriously. Someone stuck in a sub par marriage has other things to worry about generally, more pressing and urgent than afterlife.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

I'd be curious about this, too, as it says in the bible that if a man divorces his wife and marries another, he commits adultery. The only exception is if the wife was unfaithful.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> I'd be curious about this, too, as it says in the bible that if a man divorces his wife and marries another, he commits adultery. The only exception is if the wife was unfaithful.


That was the Law and Jesus quoted that portion of the Law.

I don't think any one believes that divorce is the unforgiveable sin (if there is one). But many Christians like it is the sign that a person has not really committed themself to Christ and is indeed living in sin.


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## WalterWhite (Sep 14, 2012)

Op, tells us about your husband please...


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Well you won't see an atheist sitting on their bum waiting for a god to save them from their misery, either through death or miracles.


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