# My Story



## Here'sHoping

<Sigh> I have read a ton of these since D-Day so I will try to include all relevant details. I feal like I need to get my story out there even though It seems I have already found a hundred just like it, I guess I havent found the answers I am looking for. 

I am 35 W is 34 married 14 years 2 kids 14 and 9. In hindsight I will preface my story and say that I think I have not paid as much attention to my wife as I should have for going on 2 years now. I chose to hang out with my buddies and drink beers over her company on many occasions. 

Ok, so we built and closed on our first house this past year as well. During the final few weeks prior to Closing on our new house we lived in a Hotel room. One night in the hotel room we got into a fight and my wife left with the kids. I did not think much of the fight at the time (my concern was that she come back to the same hotel room and not waste money on a second room), but this is where my story begins. Appearantly, after she left our room that night she began talking to an old high school ex BF (on the phone & in another state). She did come back to our room that night and did not "waste" any money on a second room. So in my mind, life goes on. Over the next few weeks I start noticing she is going for walks by herself. or running errands without our kids (she has always done EVERYTHING with our kids). 

After we closed on our house I thought things would have a sort of return to normalcy. I was WAY wrong. The week after we closed on our first home, she insisted on taking a trip without me or our kids back east to visit her mother. I could not understand why she would want to take such a trip only a week after we closed on our house, but her mother can be very controlling and she said her mother had insisted she make it in for some family BBQ. After she returned from her trip she was back to her same tricks more errands less kids lots of alone time and began acting suspicious. I have never been a jealous husband, in fact, I am less bothered by other men hitting on my wife than she is (she is a very attractive woman). I have always been very confident in her love for me. 

About 2 months after the night of the fight in the hotel, I came home a little tipsy one night and having had suspicions for the first time in my life with this woman I grabbed her cell phone as she was texting away next to me in our bed. She immediately looked shocked and scared that I was about to uncover something BIG, and she broke down and began crying. I tried to unlock the phone but did not know the password, so she said to give it to her and she would type it in...but she wanted to tell me first before I read anything, which I agreed too. 

She proceeded to tell me she had been talking to her highschool ex for a few months now and she was thinking about leaving me. she admitted to an EA but denied that it had gotten physical. By the time she was finished telling me of EA she had slipped into her phone and deleted all text messages, so I'm not sure what evidence got erased. I suppose this was my first eye opening...I did not get any sleep that night, I couldnt understand what she was telling me or how that could happen (Why didnt she talk to me?) the next day I took off work and told her was going to work on forgiving her and that I wanted our marriage to work, she offered to delete her Facebook turn her phone off whatever it took she was in, "lets save the marriage". 

As time went on I noticed her suspicious behavior just became more suspicious locking herself in the bathroom for extended periods of time multiple times a day etc. So I logged into my cell phone account and began looking at cell phone activity. AH HA she is calling and texting this guy every day multiple times a day and he too. I decide to use this new information as a sort of barometer to gauge my sucess with her. I wont tell her I know about the texts and calls and eventually they will slow and cease. 

Nope, they continue and I begin to feel betrayed daily. now 4 months from the hotel room fight we blow up at each other. She says she is gone and I am almost in agreement. But no I calm her down a few hours later, explain to her that our love is strong and that neither one of us has a chance as long as she is continuing the EA. She agrees and all communication appears to cease (at least off the cell phone bill) I believe she is still talking to the guy through any of a hundred other ways that I cant track, but decide I am going to beat him and win. I become super husband / super dad. This only pisses her off more. It seems the harder I try to win her affection the angrier she gets at me. So I try harder. 

ok so 6 months after the hotel fight she she buys plane tickets for her and our kids to go back east to her mothers. She did this behind my back but I found the bank statement charges and confronted her. She was very nice about it and said, that she had to buy them when she did they were the last seats blah blah and she didnt think I would mind but she also didnt have enough money to buy my ticket. Well I (being superhusband) agree to her and the kids going to her mothers afterall what could she do, our kids are with her. 

Well once she got away from me she was like a dog off the leash. I couldnt get her on the phone I would talk to my kids everyday and they would talk about mommy being out with friends. So my wife was spending alot of time out and without the kids. This grew my suspicion so I vowed to work even harder when she returned and that I should have never stayed behind. The day they returned I was very excited she would surely see how hard I was working for her affection and I would never let her out of my sight again. However after being home for about 15 minutes she told me we need to talk. I thought this was great because she had been so distant and cold for the last 6 months that we were finally going to get somewhere. She informed me that she was not happy, needed space to find herself, lost herself, needed to miss me again etc.

She had seen a lawyer a month before and looked into divorce but couldnt pull the trigger. She did however, rent an apartment 5 miles from our house (shared with one of her female coworkers who was unhappy in her marriage) and said she was moving out. She said she could not divorce me so she felt like there must be something left. She also agreed to marriage counseling (which I have propmply scheduled an appointment). We also agreed to a weekly date night. Talked about money and how we would share time with the kids. She left on Saturday. The Kids will stay with me while she works nights for half the week, then will stay with her for the second half...she is also picking up from school and stays with them in our home until I get home. 

I am devastated but I have only texted her once since she left. I told her to let me know if she needed anything and that she was welcome home whenever she found what she was looking for. The day after she left we both attended my Son's basketball practice. It was extremely awkward as I did not know if I was supposed to talk to her, but I felt like an A-hole if I just sat there quiet. So I told her I was going to leave and that I supported her cause for "space" and did not feel like it was going to have it desired effect if we were around each other everyday and that we should save our conversations for date night and counseling. I have broken down several times since she left, I am strong in front of my kids but I want her to come home quickly. Sorry if this thing turned into a novel.

*her txt back to me:*
_Thank u. I appreciate all of ur efforts and I hope we get through this. We are strong. I think I just lost myself somehow. I love our family. Im sorry for the disappointment. I've been a mess for a while now and should have never let it get to this point._


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## Rottdad42

Sorry your here brother. For us readers could you paragraph your story it's hard to read. Not jamming you with insults in your time of need.


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## Wiserforit

Could you please learn to use the "enter" key so that this is broken up into paragraphs instead of one long run-on script? It is so easy to do. Literally lifting a finger. A lot of people aren't going to read this simply because you didn't do them that slight courtesy.

You did the exact wrong thing: doormat instead of 180. You baked a nice big triple-layer cake for her and invited her to eat it, while standing by with the icing dispenser to make sure she has yummy icing with every bite. It's more than enabling, it is being the facilitator, stopping just short of arranging her dates for her.


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## Here'sHoping

sorry spacing added


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## walkonmars

I find it odd that on the night of the hotel fight she called the old xHSBF.
She must have been in contact with him well before the fight. So, it's likely she already had his # in her contacts.

And if you were neglectful for two years, I would suspect that's how long he's been offering comfort and support (but mostly he was grooming her for the big payoff). 

By the time you came home with a snoot-full, she was way, way, deep into this guy. But they hadn't finalized their plans. Hence, the 1-act play featurng your wife in the role of a remorseful spouse.

It's likely that the very next day they talked it over and made final arrangements.
Since then, they've gotten'it on in every imaginable way. 

You're out. He's in. That simple.

She's waiting for him to wrap up loose ends while living off your dime. Biding her time until he's able to ride off with her.

She was mad at your "new & improved" bad self because to her, it was too late. You seemed pathetic and to ease the anger snd pain, probably has a good laugh w her boyfriend at your "too late" feeble attempts.

Sorry it turned out this way. Open your eyes and work on YOU. There is no marriage to work on. It's a waste of time and effort.

She's agreed to date nights so she can declare to one and all that she did all she could to save the marriage.

Accept your failings in the marriage. But don't excuse her treachery and vile deceit.


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## MattMatt

Did she, by any chance, engineer the fight? She did not waste any money on another room. But did she spend some time in another room at the hotel with her 'friend'?


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## Here'sHoping

@WalkonMars
Thanks for the point blank advice...that is kind of what I am looking for. I have not been able to find clarity in my situation as I am so close to it. BTW you didn't have to go all Kenny Powers on me lol.

my story, though long, is summed up in a 5 minute read but know that it has taken 6 months to get to now...I think you make a lot of valid points and I'm sure I have left out a few pieces. I do think she had contact with XHSBF prior to hotel fight, however I believe that was the night she chose to move forward and indulge.


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## Here'sHoping

MattMatt said:


> Did she, by any chance, engineer the fight? She did not waste any money on another room. But did she spend some time in another room at the hotel with her 'friend'?


The XHSBF lives back east over 2K miles away.


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## walkonmars

Sorry HH,
Didn't intend to be cruel. I have to check myself.

You really need to work on yorself and distance youself from her. Get in shape, physically, mentally, emotionally.

Ther's nothing you can do to MAKE her want you again. But if she sees you are moving on, caring for yourself, being gracious with your kids and shutting her out then maybe. Just maybe.

Me, I would limit the date nights or eliminate them for a while until I pulled myself together. That's what the 180 is for. She's fading - let go.

The sun will shine again, the world will turn, as will the worm.


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## Chaparral

How do you know she didn't see him while she was away? I'm guessing this is already a physical affair. What is your dealbreaker?

You need to check old phone/text records to see when this **** really started.

Have you told your parents/ her parents?

What do you know about the OM, is he married? You need to let his parents and wife know he is busting up your family. 

Put him on cheaterville.com and send him a link. Send his parents a link too.

You have a chance to save this but only if you act boldly and stay strong.

Separate your finances and make sure you are not paying for her affair.

Read Married Man Sex Life..............it is not a sex manual BTW. http://marriedmansexlife.com/


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## CH

Yeah, she slept with him already. Sorry but it's a done deal that's been sealed already.


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## MattMatt

Here'sHoping said:


> The XHSBF lives back east over 2K miles away.


He might have arranged to meet up, there. And something similar happened to another BS on TAM, not so long back.


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## Here'sHoping

chapparal said:


> How do you know she didn't see him while she was away? I'm guessing this is already a physical affair. What is your dealbreaker?
> 
> You need to check old phone/text records to see when this **** really started.
> 
> Have you told your parents/ her parents?
> 
> What do you know about the OM, is he married? You need to let his parents and wife know he is busting up your family.
> 
> Put him on cheaterville.com and send him a link. Send his parents a link too.
> 
> You have a chance to save this but only if you act boldly and stay strong.
> 
> Separate your finances and make sure you are not paying for her affair.
> 
> Read Married Man Sex Life..............it is not a sex manual BTW. Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.


Additional Details: the OM is or was married with kid(s)...her mother knows she is unhappy but I dont know how much she knows. I have not told anyone other my sister. I do not have any contact for the OM or his wife. 

I will go back and check phone records for the sake of your advice, (confident in my guess) and she blames this hotel fight for constantly I don't even remember what it was about in much detail...perhaps she was looking for an excuse.


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## ThreeStrikes

I agree the affair is a PA. Most likely when she went to visit her mother. She is chemically bonded to the OM now. Since they most likely fvcked each other in HS, then the bond will be even stronger. It's a chemical addiction. 

He will be paying visits to her in her apartment now. Guaranteed. 

Regardless of how things play out over the next several days, you absolutely must consult with an attorney to learn the divorce and custody laws in your state.

Read up on the 180, and the focus now becomes about you and your kids. 

Oh yeah...hopefully you've figured out by now that you can't "nice" her out of her affair. Never works. If you want to end her affair, then you must expose it to her family and friends. Affairs tend to wither when brought out into the light. If OM is married, then find his wife and let her know what's up.


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## walkonmars

HH
Don't blame yourself or the hotel fight. If there hadn't been a hotel fight it would have been something else. Anything else except the truth.

That she blames the hotel fight is more evidence that she had been thinking if not actively planning to do this.


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## Here'sHoping

doormat vs 180 are terms I have become familiar with over the past few days. I do not want to make myself look desperate despite what damage is done. We have our first counseling session in 2 weeks. 

From what I have read it sounds like she is having a MLC and even it appears it may already be to late if she views me that way. I have seen a lot of "there is nothing he could have done" stories by now.


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## walkonmars

Most assertive thing you can do is to follow Three-strike's advice. Then lay divorce papers at her door. Blindside style. Don't threaten just do it.


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## Chaparral

Where does the OM live in relation to you?

Check phone records for his number.

Try spokeo.com. It won't work if he has a burner phone.

You HAVE to tell her parents.

Who is paying for her apt., car ,insurance etc.?


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## Chaparral

Does she have a good job?


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## ThreeStrikes

Don't blame this on a MLC. Cripes, you guys still have young kids and were just moving into a new house!

Nope, she was feeling entitled. Probably has been in contact with her old flame for a long time. She got off on the attention he gives her. Now, as you suggest that he was/is having marriage problems, he was most likely prowling after your wife. It probably started where she was helping him get through his marriage problems, then they got more intimate, flames were re-kindled, and now you're the odd man out babysitting her kids while she thinks he's her soulmate.

If you want to end the affair, you have to nuke it with exposure, and then show her you are serious by filing for D. Divorces take a long time to finalize, but the act of filing just may shock her back to reality. You can call it off if you decide to reconcile.

The longer you wait around, the less likely the chance of ending the affair. *Especially if he has plans to come and visit her soon.* The more she fvcks him, the more addicted to him she will become.


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## committedwife

Here'sHoping said:


> The XHSBF lives back east over 2K miles away.


This is to your advantage. Don't be a wuss - save your marriage! Let your WW know that she can leave. After all, she's an adult. BUT YOUR CHILDREN WILL NOT BE GOING WITH HER. Tell her that, if she wants to bolt to her old boyfriend, she'll be leaving ALONE. Hardcore waywards will leave their children behind; she may not be hardcore.

Let her know that you will not allow her to continue this lifestyle. 

You need to expose this affair to anyone who is in a position to influence your wife. Think - who would that be? Is OM married?


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## Here'sHoping

chapparal said:


> Does she have a good job?


yes we both have good jobs


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## Here'sHoping

so glad I posted my story...there seems to be a consensus to expose the affair...yet must of what I have read over the last few days says not to contact her friends and family about this.

That would be perceived as desperate?


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## committedwife

Here'sHoping said:


> doormat vs 180 are terms I have become familiar with over the past few days. I do not want to make myself look desperate despite what damage is done. We have our first counseling session in 2 weeks.
> 
> From what I have read it sounds like she is having a MLC and even it appears it may already be to late if she views me that way. I have seen a lot of "there is nothing he could have done" stories by now.


HH, understand that any counselling is worth squat until your WW is totally on board with recovering your marriage. If that isn't the case, CANCEL the appointment and save your money.


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## Here'sHoping

committedwife said:


> This is to your advantage. Don't be a wuss - save your marriage! Let your WW know that she can leave. After all, she's an adult. BUT YOUR CHILDREN WILL NOT BE GOING WITH HER. Tell her that, if she wants to bolt to her old boyfriend, she'll be leaving ALONE. Hardcore waywards will leave their children behind; she may not be hardcore.
> 
> Let her know that you will not allow her to continue this lifestyle.
> 
> You need to expose this affair to anyone who is in a position to influence your wife. Think - who would that be? Is OM married?


She will NEVER leave her children...I think that is the only reason she is still here...she also claims she would never take the kids away from me.

As for the OM he was married when she confessed EA but he had marriage issues so I dont know now.


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## Here'sHoping

She agreed to the counseling and says she wants to make our marriage work...BS? 


I edited my novel and included a txt from her at the bottom


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## ThreeStrikes

Here'sHoping said:


> so glad I posted my story...there seems to be a consensus to expose the affair...yet must of what I have read over the last few days says not to contact her friends and family about this.
> 
> That would be perceived as desperate?


Desperate times call for desperate measures. 

Forget what you've been reading in the last few days. It's baloney.

And I agree with committedwife. MC is a waste of $ unless she has ended the affair and wants to commit to reconciliation.


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## committedwife

Here'sHoping said:


> so glad I posted my story...there seems to be a consensus to expose the affair...yet must of what I have read over the last few days says not to contact her friends and family about this.
> 
> That would be perceived as desperate?


Only if you come off as desperate. So, don't do that. 

"Dear friends of me and my wife,

I am heartbroken to disclose to you that WIFE'S NAME HERE, has begun an extramarital affair with ASSHO*LE, a childhood friend of hers. I am devastasted and worry about my children, whose lives may be destroyed by her actions. 

I ask that you, as a person of importance to her, to please help her understand the importance of her conduct regarding the future of her children and of her marriage with a husband who loves her very much. I trust your judgment and hope you will help us at a time when we so dearly need your help."


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## committedwife

Here'sHoping said:


> She will NEVER leave her children...I think that is the only reason she is still here...she also claims she would never talk the kids away from me.
> 
> As for the OM he was married when she confessed EA but he had marriage issues so I dont know now.


 Very good. Then he's still married. Do you have his wife's contact info? I'm sure he DID have marriage 'issues' - your wife was interfering in their marriage with their affair. That DOES create 'issues.'


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## Here'sHoping

committedwife said:


> Only if you come off as desperate. So, don't do that.
> 
> "Dear friends of me and my wife,
> 
> I am heartbroken to disclose to you that WIFE'S NAME HERE, has begun an extramarital affair with ASSHO*LE, a childhood friend of hers. I am devastasted and worry about my children, whose lives may be destroyed by her actions.
> 
> I ask that you, as a person of importance to her, to please help her understand the importance of her conduct regarding the future of her children and of her marriage with a husband who loves her very much. I trust your judgment and hope you will help us at a time when we so dearly need your help."


WOW that's good...very bold I will think on it for a day


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## ThreeStrikes

Here'sHoping said:


> *her txt back to me:*
> _Thank u. I appreciate all of ur efforts and I hope we get through this. We are strong. I think I just lost myself somehow. I love our family. Im sorry for the disappointment. I've been a mess for a while now and should have never let it get to this point._


If she was sincere, she wouldn't have moved out. She would be acting with the most sincere remorse. *Actions*, not words.

Ask her if she slept with the guy. Ask her if she is willing to submit to a polygraph. Demand that she get tested for STD's and show you the results. 

"Im sorry for the disappointment"??????? Like she burned your toast or something.

Oy vey!

Dude, do not be bamboozled by a cheating spouse's *words.*


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## Here'sHoping

committedwife said:


> Very good. Then he's still married. Do you have his wife's contact info?


I have looked for him on facebook...spokeo..various social sites nothing...All I have is his first and last name city state and phone number that he was calling from on my phone bill


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## Here'sHoping

I have not spoken to her of OM since the day I confronted her over the phone bill over 2 months ago..

So I think what your saying is she needs to say to me that the affair is over and I should not assume anything


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## walkonmars

Do her parents know his family?

They might help track her down.


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## Here'sHoping

walkonmars said:


> Do her parents know his family?
> 
> They might help track her down.


I dont think they do...her parents are divorced. her mother would be the one that might and I dont think she would be on my side anyway.


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## Here'sHoping

My sister has offered in the past to go full detective on his @$$ get his wifes info etc and I have called her off...basically stating I dont care about him I only care about my wife. But I can see where getting him in hot water may work in my favor.


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## Here'sHoping

ThreeStrikes said:


> If she was sincere, she wouldn't have moved out. She would be acting with the most sincere remorse. *Actions*, not words.
> 
> Ask her if she slept with the guy. Ask her if she is willing to submit to a polygraph. Demand that she get tested for STD's and show you the results.
> 
> "Im sorry for the disappointment"??????? Like she burned your toast or something.
> 
> Oy vey!
> 
> Dude, do not be bamboozled by a cheating spouse's *words.*


Ok so are you saying that if the affair was over and she was serious about reconciling she would have stayed...the I need space / time away from you to love and miss you again is a no go?


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## ThreeStrikes

Yep.


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## committedwife

Here'sHoping said:


> I have not spoken to her of OM since the day I confronted her over the phone bill over 2 months ago..
> 
> So I think what your saying is she needs to say to me that the affair is over and I should not assume anything


I'm saying that YOU need tell HER that the affair is over, if she wants to continue to enjoy the comforts of home and children. 

If she wants to continue the affair she needs to move her arse OUT. Her call. If she stays, the affair ENDS.


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## walkonmars

From the threads on this board you will discover that unfaithful spouses can and do say ANYTHING to achieve their goals.

The way you can distinguish the liars from the remorseful is to watch the actions and mostly ignore the words. Most know their spouses so well they know exactly what to say and what buttons to push.

Talk is cheap. Tears can be summoned almost on demand. Actions speak volumes.

What do her actions tell you?


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## committedwife

Here'sHoping said:


> Ok so are you saying that if the affair was over and she was serious about reconciling she would have stayed...the I need space / time away from you to love and miss you again is a no go?


Women who want 'space' want to continue their affair. That's a time-buying comment.


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## ThreeStrikes

Think about it. She's already consulted a lawyer about D. She's taken a huge step by moving out and semi-abandoning her children. She hasn''t been transparent about what occurred, or is occurring, with OM.

She doesn't have quite the heart, *yet*, to pull the trigger on D. She'd rather do this: 

The Humiliating Dance of

But, if the affair is still going on (99.9999999% chance), then its only a matter of time before she finds her guts. In the meanwhile, you will be living in the world of heartache limbo. And probably end up losing her to POSOM.

I'm baffled that you haven't even spoken with her about her OM...for over two months?

Why? Can't you see the big elephant in the room?


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## ThreeStrikes

committedwife said:


> I'm saying that YOU need tell HER that the affair is over, if she wants to continue to enjoy the comforts of home and children.
> 
> If she wants to continue the affair she needs to move her arse OUT. Her call. If she stays, the affair ENDS.


She's already out. Rooming with another gal with "marriage problems" ie, cheating on her husband.


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## committedwife

Here'sHoping said:


> My sister has offered in the past to go full detective on his @$$ get his wifes info etc and I have called her off...basically stating I dont care about him I only care about my wife. But I can see where getting him in hot water may work in my favor.


HH, you can go down whimpering (which is what you've been doing so far) or you can GO DOWN SWINGING and possibly save your marriage. 

You called off your sister's help? That's going down whimpering. STOP IT.


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## committedwife

Here'sHoping said:


> I dont think they do...her parents are divorced. her mother would be the one that might and I dont think she would be on my side anyway.


You don't know for sure. Try it anyway.


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## Here'sHoping

walkonmars said:


> From the threads on this board you will discover that unfaithful spouses can and do say ANYTHING to achieve their goals.
> 
> The way you can distinguish the liars from the remorseful is to watch the actions and mostly ignore the words. Most know their spouses so well they know exactly what to say and what buttons to push.
> 
> Talk is cheap. Tears can be summoned almost on demand. Actions speak volumes.
> 
> What do her actions tell you?


I am new at this but I agree that leaving seems counter intuitive to coming home...However many of the websites say that If I try to force her to stay she will merely try harder to leave. her actions are greek to me I cant believe any of this is really happening...

All I have is the cheap talk and promises of counseling / date night.


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## Here'sHoping

ThreeStrikes said:


> Think about it. She's already consulted a lawyer about D. She's taken a huge step by moving out and semi-abandoning her children. She hasn''t been transparent about what occurred, or is occurring, with OM.
> 
> She doesn't have quite the heart, *yet*, to pull the trigger on D. She'd rather do this:
> 
> The Humiliating Dance of
> 
> But, if the affair is still going on (99.9999999% chance), then its only a matter of time before she finds her guts. In the meanwhile, you will be living in the world of heartache limbo. And probably end up losing her to POSOM.
> 
> I'm baffled that you haven't even spoken with her about her OM...for over two months?
> 
> Why? Can't you see the big elephant in the room?


OMG great post!! and the link is too valuable :smthumbup:


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## Here'sHoping

so Coarse of Action(s)?

Tell her to move in or D?
Force her to admit to PA and that its over prior to Counseling?
Tell the whole world of the affair?

Thoughts?


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## ThreeStrikes

Here'sHoping said:


> I am new at this but I agree that leaving seems counter intuitive to coming home...However many of the websites say that If I try to force her to stay she will merely try harder to leave. her actions are greek to me I cant believe any of this is really happening...
> 
> All I have is the cheap talk and promises of counseling / date night.


You can't force her to stay. You can't force her to do anything.

You can only tell her what you will or will not tolerate. I'm assuming that you will not tolerate sharing your WW with OM. 

So she picks. You or him. 

If she picks you, then No Contact with OM. EVER. AGAIN.

She moves back home. She offers full transparency. No passwords on phone. No deleting texts or messages or call logs. No privacy except in the bathroom. Everything else is secrecy,which is a no go. She does the heavy lifting to win you back.

She answers your questions about the affair. Every detail that you want to hear. Remember, you can't "un-hear" it, though, so only ask what you need to ask to help you move on.

She gets STD tested. 

Polygraph if you feel you need it.


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## walkonmars

See a lawyer first to know your rights and responsibilities. Know what she can and can't do with your kids, finances, other assets.

You may discover, as others have that in a month she will have evicted you and moved her OM in. It has happened more than you can imagine so lawyer up.

Draw divorce papers tell her she will be served in a day or two because you won't live like this. Tell her she's right, you are strong. Strong enough to go your separate way.

If she want to reconcile let HER bring it up. If she doesn't you will know what her real goal was.

If she does then she needs to reveal all that has happened with no holds barred. 
No trickling of the truth. She needs to compose a no contact letter to the OM.

Needs to provide access to her email and phone for starters.

Can you do these things with courage?


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## Here'sHoping

ThreeStrikes said:


> So she picks. You or him.
> 
> If she picks you, then No Contact with OM. EVER. AGAIN.
> 
> She moves back home. She offers full transparency. No passwords on phone. No deleting texts or messages or call logs. No privacy except in the bathroom. Everything else is secrecy,which is a no go. She does the heavy lifting to win you back.
> 
> She answers your questions about the affair. Every detail that you want to hear. Remember, you can't "un-hear" it, though, so only ask what you need to ask to help you move on.
> 
> She gets STD tested.
> 
> Polygraph if you feel you need it.


No cherry picking? all or D? What if she say EA / PA over swears to whatever but "need time to heal?" 

How soon do I have this conversation? NOW?


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## walkonmars

She has already seen a lawyer. She's miles ahead of you. You need a lawyer pronto.


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## Here'sHoping

walkonmars said:


> See a lawyer first to know your rights and responsibilities. Know what she can and can't do with your kids, finances, other assets.
> 
> You may discover, as others have that in a month she will have evicted you and moved her OM in. It has happened more than you can imagine so lawyer up.
> 
> Draw divorce papers tell her she will be served in a day or two because you won't live like this. Tell her she's right, you are strong. Strong enough to go your separate way.
> 
> If she want to reconcile let HER bring it up. If she doesn't you will know what her real goal was.
> 
> If she does then she needs to reveal all that has happened with no holds barred.
> No trickling of the truth. She needs to compose a no contact letter to the OM.
> 
> Needs to provide access to her email and phone for starters.
> 
> Can you do these things with courage?


I think I can do these things..In my mind I am planning for the worst but hoping for the best. I feal like I should hold out for her to return and assume she wont. but if I push then she will run.


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## Here'sHoping

I have read that the first to file D carries some advantage...I cant seem to think of how being the first to file is beneficial.


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## walkonmars

She's sitting on the fence. Having her cake and eating it too.
She says you're strong. She's a liar. She sees you as weak because you have only groveled, pleaded, and bent to her will. All unattrctive characteristics, same ad chasing after her.

If you push the way you should it will force her from her comfy fence. You need to know where she stands.She knows but sees no advantage in telling you or consequence in remaining silent about her plans.

Let her know there is a consequence.


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## ThreeStrikes

The reason you need to file is because you are demonstrating, by your actions, that you will not tolerate the sh!t she is pulling. It means you are dead serious. 

The "I need space" crap is, as has already been said, cheater-talk for "I want to continue my affair".

We've been where you are, HH. Trust the advice you've been given.

See a lawyer tomorrow to educate yourself on your state's D laws. Take the day off work if you need to. This is important.

If you push, and she runs, then she is already gone.


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## walkonmars

It depends on state laws. Ask your lawyer.


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## ThreeStrikes

HH, you're probably not sleeping much.

Spend some time tonight and read some of the other cheating wife posts here. It will help you gain confidence regarding what your next steps should be. Up to this point, you've pretty much done all the wrong things regarding your WW's affair. We are giving you some harsh, but needed, advice. 

Stay strong. Reach between your legs. Still there? Good. 

If you want to save your marriage, you have to be willing to lose it.


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## Here'sHoping

@ThreeStrikes and walkonmars
my next moves
conversation me or OM if me come home and etc. etc

she gets pissed says OM is gone but "I need time"
Then go see lawyer get D papers served but continue to counseling?

She chooses OM...Proceed directly to lawyer for D

sound about right?


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## ThreeStrikes

Step 1.

talk with a lawyer. educate yourself.

Step 2.

draw up divorce papers

step 3.

talk with your wife with divorce papers in hand

If you lack the funds to retain a lawyer, download some state-appropriate divorce papers and fill them out. show her you are serious. 

Don't grovel or beg her to come back. Tell her she ends the affair or you are filing. Tell her you have enough self-respect that you will not tolerate her behavior in your marriage.

Be prepared for her to wig out. She'll blame you, lie, trickle truth, sob, who knows. Just be prepared, and act like Cool Hand Luke. Be as unemotional as you can.


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## Here'sHoping

Sounds like good advice!


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## Will_Kane

Your lack of action and stand-offishness in this whole thing if baffling.

Your behavior in going out with friends for beers and neglecting your wife IS part of this equation, but it DOES NOT justify her cheating.

It is hard to make a plan when you don't know what's going on - and you're clueless. Luckily, we see this so much we can figure it out just based on what little you gave us.

Assume the following is true unless you find out definitively otherwise:

1. Your wife and other man have told each other they are soul mates and destined to be together. They have met up during each of her trips back east and had sex as many times as they could.

2. Your wife and other man would be together already if not for their kids and their jobs. They both have seen lawyers and they both know that they can not just up and take the kids out of state to live away from the other parent. Also, they need their jobs.

3. They are making plans to be together. They have pledged "not to give up on each other" or some such. They are in contact every single day - the first thing they do each morning and the last thing they do each night is contact each other.

When you confronted your wife originally about this situation, she immediately and sincerely pledged to work on the marriage and then she proceeded to not work on the marriage one little bit, and, as a matter of fact, increased contact, spent hours upon hours in the locked bathroom, and got angrier and angrier at you. THAT is what we are talking about when we say watch the actions, not the words. By the way, your trying to be a better husband had zero effect on her anger towards you. It did not cause her anger nor did it relieve it. No matter how you acted, you only were an obstacle between her and a perfect life with other man. That's why she was angry.

So she saw a lawyer, he told her she could not take the kids away from you without an agreement. She planned to move out and did. Now she can contact other man whenever she pleases without your unwelcome and unapproving glances. Also, she now has an UNLIMITED amount of time to make plans with other man. You have been NEUTRALIZED and are now IRRELEVANT to her plans. She will be pleasant to you as long as you KNOW YOUR PLACE and DO AS YOU ARE TOLD. She will throw you a bone like marriage counseling, but she WILL NOT TELL THE TRUTH and will not make any true effort. She will just go through the motions.

Your marriage MAY be salvageable. It may not.

Your story is not unique. Your wife is not unique. You are not 1unique. Your situation is very common. There always are a few variables, but nothing significantly different. Cheaters follow a very predictable script. Betrayed spouses also follow the script. The plot outline could take one of a few courses, like bad TV movies. You and your wife both are following the script to a T.

Your wife is "fence-sitting" and "eating cake." She is "in love" with the other man. This will run its course on its own. In about a year, or two, maybe at longest three. That's how long it takes to get over the "in love" feeling, which eventually turns into the kind of love you and your wife have for each other, the more mature settled kind of love, not the exciting, not-knowing-what's-going-to-happen-next, butterfly-in-the-stomach love. After the "in love" feeling wears off, your wife may stay with the other man out of habit for a year or a few more. Then she will contact you via Facebook, remembering only the good times, and want to reunite with you. If she doesn't meet anyone else in between. So, if you follow your current course, you might have your wife back in 7-10 years or so.

Your wife wants the safety of you at home and the excitement of her new lover. She's not going to give up either unless you force her to (or unless the other man gets hit by a bus, struck by lightning, finds someone else, or otherwise dumps her).

You can wait until hell freezes over and it still won't be enough time for your wife to decide to stay with you. The only way you are going to save your marriage is to end the affair. That is the first step and no guarantee that you can save your marriage.

Your wife is "in love" with the other man, which means she is infatuated, gets butterflies in the stomach, like a teenager with a crush. Her "affair" with the other man is pure fantasy-land; none of the harsh realities of life intrudes. In her affair with him, she does not have to pick up his dirty underwear off the floor, do laundry, cook, clean, or deal with any of life's unpleasantness. With him, there is only I love you's, sex, and talk of living in a perfect fantasy world together. Of course, no such perfect fantasy world awaits your wife, and somewhere deep down she knows that, but a big part of her wants to believe in that fantasy, just like you want to believe that she will come to her senses on her own. She won't.

Right now, she likes the fact that she can still have her other man knowing you will be there as a backup in case it falls through. She is sitting on the fence eating cake.

There is a reason she hasn't left you for him - what is it? The kids? The job? Other man's hesitance to leave his wife and family? If she is in love with him and they are soulmates destined to be together since high school, why hasn't she left you for him yet?

Your first step is to talk to your wife. Get her alone without the kids around. Tell her that you love her and are sorry for whatever legitimate gripes she has against you, that you will improve yourself and improve your marriage, that you feel your marriage will be better than ever if you try to reconcile. Next, tell her that although you feel this way, you cannot go on this way any longer waiting in the wings as she takes her time and decides. Give her one day to decide. Tell her no decision means she chooses other man. Tell her you took vows together, you've been married many years, have had children together, and have been through life's ups and downs together and you don't plan on waiting any longer as her "backup plan" while she continues her affair with the other man.

If your wife does choose to commit to the marriage, she agrees to give up all contact with the other man now and forever, handwrite a no contact letter to the other man, move back in, tell you the full truth of her affair, and give you complete transparency of all her communication devices and accounts. If she can't agree to this, file for divorce. Don't threaten it, just do it.

Divorce is a long process. You can always stop it if your wife comes to her senses. If not, you save yourself months and months of pain and unhappiness, which ends in a bad result anyway.

If your wife does not want to meet your conditions and work on the marriage, start moving on with your life. Stop engaging with her as your wife, and start engaging with her as your soon-to-be-ex-wife. Be pleasant, but not romantic. Talk to her only as needed to discuss the divorce settlement. If you are financing her affair in any way, stop. Definitely don't pay for any means she uses to cheat on you.

Also, if she doesn't choose to re-commit to the marriage right away, expose the affair to the other man's family and friends. Expose the affair to you and your wife's family and friends. Let them know the other man's name and ask for their support in saving your family and your marriage. Don't tell your wife you are going to do this, just do it.

If you want to save your marriage, you have to be willing to lose it. You cannot "nice" your wife out of her affair.

The longer you allow this to go on, the more respect your wife is losing for you. She sees a weak-willed man who is not willing to stand up for himself. When she sees the other man, she sees a strong man who goes after what he wants and doesn't stop until he gets it. Other man may be belittling you to your wife every chance he gets. And if so she likely is listening to it and not disputing it. If the situation were reversed, do you think she would tolerate it? Why are you willing to put up with her cheating on you?


----------



## walkonmars

I wouldxsee axlawyer first. You need to know the lay of the land. 

But whichever way you do it, I would have a VAR on me when having the confrontation. Just to be on the safe side. You don't know if she's capable of making threats etc. Remember that she has both legal advice and probably advice from her OM.

When you confront het don't be cruel, emotional, angry, hurt, etc. The minute she sees any of those she won't take what you say seriously. Be composed, thoughtful and be willing to go through periods of silence. 

Know what you're going to say. Say it with confidence in a calm manner and wait for a response. Don't be afraid to use these phrases to attacks she makes:

Sorry thats my position and I'm not going to change it. 

I've said all I'm going to say. Now its up to you

I'm not going to discuss that now

You'll have to adk your lawyer and I'll ask mine

HH, don't get into debates or arguments. If things start to go that way. Just say you're done talking until she calms down


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## Here'sHoping

@Will_Kane no offense to any of the other posters that have been helping me along through this, but that is the most rationalized balanced thought out advice I have read or received. Thank you so much! and where do I send the check  

@walkonmars can a VAR be admissible for legal proceeding if the WW doesn't know about it?


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## Here'sHoping

Additional Info: (side-note)
Her new roommate is also her best friend who started having an affair prior to my wife. I think they are going all Thelma and Louise egging each other on though this.


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## Will_Kane

A few succinct answers to your wife's likely objections when you talk to her about ending the affair:

I cannot control you, I can only control myself and what I will accept and not accept in a marriage. And I am not willing to accept you having an affair with another man.

Privacy is for the bathroom; everything else is secrecy.

Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.


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## Will_Kane

Here'sHoping said:


> Additional Info: (side-note)
> Her new roommate is also her best friend who started having an affair prior to my wife. I think they are going all Thelma and Louise egging each other on though this.


This definitely will make saving the marriage much more difficult. She won't feel so ashamed of divorcing if she has a partner to share the shame with and tell each other how right they each are as they justify and rationalize their affairs.


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## OldWolf57

HH, Will Kane is one of the most insightful and helpful posters on this site. I think I remember him saying he did counseling, SO, plz pay attention to what he says.

Especially this " To save Your Marriage, You Have To Be Ready To Lose It ".

I'm sorry you are here, but glad you found this place.


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## Here'sHoping

Will_Kane said:


> This definitely will make saving the marriage much more difficult. She won't feel so ashamed of divorcing if she has a partner to share the shame with and tell each other how right they each are as they justify and rationalize their affairs.


but it does not change any of the advice you have given, correct?


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## tom67

Here'sHoping said:


> but it does not change any of the advice you have given, correct?


Just confront her cool and calm she has a day to decide like Will said om or you read again please and follow through limbo/cake eating sux.


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## Here'sHoping

FWIW to all that have posted so far...for the first time since the bombdrop I feel empowered...Like I can actually do something about this! I feel excited that the advice I have received is my best chance at salvaging my marriage and that if I still lose my wife I know that I have given it EVERY opportunity to succeed.

I feel like I might actually get some sleep tonight  Thanks to ALL


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## Will_Kane

Here'sHoping said:


> but it does not change any of the advice you have given, correct?


No, it does not change any of the advice. Except now you have to resolve the toxic best friend problem, in addition to the other man problem. They live together and work together.

Ultimately, your wife's best friend will be a bigger obstacle to trying to save your marriage than other man himself. Your wife likely will have to go no contact with the best friend. Your wife probably has exaggerated or outright lied about what a terrible husband you are to best friend, so best friend will forever be against you.

Even if other man doesn't pan out, if other man is killed in a freak accident, best friend will tell your wife not to reconcile with you because 1) you are a terrible person; and 2) living the single life is so much fun while 3) looking for someone who is more deserving of her love than you ("don't settle for him, he LEFT YOU ALONE and WENT OUT WITH HIS FRIENDS FOR BEERS, and there is NOTHING WORSE than that!" - this really is the type of stuff they say to each other.)

It doesn't always go that way, let's hope in your wife's case her desire to raise her children in an intact family will give you a chance to work on the marriage. Although she has fallen out of love with you, that can change. It starts by winning back her respect - standing up for yourself and refusing to tolerate her poor behavior.


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## Shaggy

Here'sHoping said:


> Ok so are you saying that if the affair was over and she was serious about reconciling she would have stayed...the I need space / time away from you to love and miss you again is a no go?


I need space is always a cheaters excuse to get freedom to cheat.

It's gone PA long ago, no doubt during the first trip to her mothers, then again during the second. Her having a safe place and space makes it easy to contact him, have sex video chats with him etc. it also enables him to pop into town on a business trip.

If she wanted to save the marriage shed be home fixing it and working on the marriage. She instead chose more space to be a avaiable for the OM.

Exposé him wide and far, especially to his wife. Yes he has marriage problems, he's having a PA with your wife.


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## Shaggy

Can you expose the cheating friend?


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## tom67

Shaggy said:


> I need space is always a cheaters excuse to get freedom to cheat.
> 
> It's gone PA long ago, no doubt during the first trip to her mothers, then again during the second. Her having a safe place and space makes it easy to contact him, have sex video chats with him etc. it also enables him to pop into town on a business trip.
> 
> If she wanted to save the marriage shed be home fixing it and working on the marriage. She instead chose more space to be a avaiable for the OM.
> 
> Exposé him wide and far, especially to his wife. Yes he has marriage problems, he's having a PA with your wife.


Tell her family about this and who the pos is expose in the morning then talk to your wife ugh.


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## Here'sHoping

Shaggy said:


> Can you expose the cheating friend?


I don't know enough other than the few things my wife had told me in her friends beggining I suppose I could try, I've never met her husband but I know where he lives.


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## Shaggy

Here'sHoping said:


> I dont know of any way to contact his family...All I have is his first last name and the city state and phone number he called and texted her from...I have looked for him on FB and other social sites and google also the cell may be a burner idk


I bet her mom has met him. Have you tried spokeo and pipl? Heck hire a PI to find out his shoe size.


----------



## Shaggy

Here'sHoping said:


> I don't know enough other than the few things my wife had told me in her friends beggining I suppose I could try, I've never met her husband but I know where he lives.


I would also make sure to let him know you know all of this because your wife told you the friends secrets!

Driving a wedge between you wife and the cheating friend who is no doubt coaching her is a good idea.


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## Here'sHoping

tried spokeo and no.. hey just tried pipl and there are 4 of them...I dont know his middle initial...but the 34 year old looks promising.


----------



## Here'sHoping

Shaggy said:


> I would also make sure to let him know you know all of this because your wife told you the friends secrets!
> 
> Driving a wedge between you wife and the cheating friend who is no doubt coaching her is a good idea.


I like the angel here...I view My WW BFF as the Devil!


----------



## Shaggy

Here'sHoping said:


> I like the angel here...I view My WW BFF as the Devil!


Because she is. She's feeding your wife a constant stream of justification and rationalizations and selfish behavior.

She's telling her over and over that she should do whatever makes her feel good.


----------



## Here'sHoping

I think I just found the OM wife and messaged her on facebook, 

"Hello My name is MYNAME I am looking for family of POS that graduated high school in City STATE Year. My wife has been having an extramarital affair with him for the past 6 months. We have 2 wonderful children an her activities have put our marriage of 14 years at great risk. If I have contacted you by mistake please accept my apologies. Thanks."


----------



## tom67

Here'sHoping said:


> I think I just found the OM wife and messaged her on facebook,
> 
> "Hello My name is MYNAME I am looking for family of POS that graduated high school in City STATE Year. My wife has been having an extramarital affair with him for the past 6 months. We have 2 wonderful children an her activities have put our marriage of 14 years at great risk. If I have contacted you by mistake please accept my apologies. Thanks."


Good follow up and make sure. If she is who she is give your cell#


----------



## Shaggy

Very good. Do not be too aggressive , but be patient and open. Offer to answer any questions she wants to ask,

You'll know if you got the right OMW when your wife calls to scream at you for ruining everything. Expect phrases like how could you betray me, and why did you hurt that woman?


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## ThreeStrikes

HH, you have two huge hurdles now.

1.) The OM is her ex-boyfriend from HS. You've got the "soulmate" effect to overcome.

2.) She now has a partner in crime/toxic friend who will empower her. (You see how we predicted the roommate was also a cheater, before you mentioned it?)

The sooner you kill this affair and get her out of that apartment, the better! 

Do you know if OM has come to visit her? Hopefully he hasn't. I'm sure the plans are already there, though. Act now before he has a chance. If she gets to fvck him again, then her addiction to him will get even stronger.


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## Chaparral

I am assuming she has keys to your house and comes and goes as she pleases. Change the locks immediately. She has abandoned the family i.e. the children by moving out and being invloved in an affair. This send s a reality message. It goes without saying you do not hae keys to her place right?

Talk to an attorney asap. Let him know all this. See if he can subpeona her texts, emails, phone records and social neteworking site info. Leave no stone unturned. By abandoning her kids you should ask the attorney for an order of total primary custody. This is a huge bargaining chip and doesn't mean that is necessarily what you want.

Check out the site d*cool.com to see how cheaters manipulate their spouses.

Good luck and prayers for your familly.

Chap


----------



## Here'sHoping

ThreeStrikes said:


> Do you know if OM has come to visit her? Hopefully he hasn't. I'm sure the plans are already there, though. Act now before he has a chance. If she gets to fvck him again, then her addiction to him will get even stronger.


I don't think he has ever traveled to her...She has made the two trips back to him. I also think he is hoping to play her and this affair out for years with no intention of leaving his wife. 

So It has become a big priority now for me to expose this thing to his family. I also found the OMW email and tried to email her but it was returned. Still no response to my FB msg.


----------



## tom67

Here'sHoping said:


> I don't think he has ever traveled to her...She has made the two trips back to him. I also think he is hoping to play her and this affair out for years with no intention of leaving his wife.
> 
> So It has become a big priority now for me to expose this thing to his family. I also found the OMW email and tried to email her but it was returned. Still no response to my FB msg.


Try spokeo there is a fee but it is pretty good.


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## Here'sHoping

tom67 said:


> Try spokeo there is a fee but it is pretty good.


signed up for spokeo and found her but it doesnt list any contact info just a PO Box :scratchhead:


----------



## Acabado

Shaggy said:


> I would also make sure to let him know you know all of this because your wife told you the friends secrets!
> Driving a wedge between you wife and the cheating friend who is no doubt coaching her is a good idea.


This is key. Do it. ASAP.


----------



## Acabado

Your marriage is hanging by a thread, spend a few bucks to fins out and reach the right people, OM's BW, toxic GF's BH...


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## Chaparral

Here'sHoping said:


> signed up for spokeo and found her but it doesnt list any contact info just a PO Box :scratchhead:


Call a local PI and ask how hard/how much it would cost to find her info. Shamwow did it and it only took a day or two. He let the OM's wife know everything and busted up the affair thoough he divorced his wife anyway.


----------



## Here'sHoping

Acabado said:


> This is key. Do it. ASAP.


Okay...with my new spokeo account I was able to find WW BFF Husbands email. So I sent him an email explaing much of what I know. Im not sure if any of it is news to him, guess I will have to wait and see.


----------



## Acabado

Tell him you know what you know from your wife's mouth.


----------



## Chaparral

Here'sHoping said:


> Okay...with my new spokeo account I was able to find WW BFF Husbands email. So I sent him an email explaing much of what I know. Im not sure if any of it is news to him, guess I will have to wait and see.


Maybe he has more info on the guy.

Have you tried classmates.com? Facebook? etc.

Yellow pages?


----------



## Here'sHoping

Acabado said:


> Tell him you know what you know from your wife's mouth.


That is how I put it...told him how I only knew of the beginning of the affair because my wife quit talking to me so openly about it after she began having hers.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

HH, have you scheduled a consultation with an attorney?


----------



## The-Deceived

What is it with wayward women and this "I lost myself" bullsh*t??


----------



## Here'sHoping

ThreeStrikes said:


> HH, have you scheduled a consultation with an attorney?


I have researched the one I will use but have not consulted (yet)...I am going to giver her the him or me discussion first.. if after the 1 day grace period she has not returned: I will skip consultation and file D.

Tommorow is our first "date night" I plan to have the him or me discussion at the goodbye of our date.


----------



## Jasel

Here'sHoping said:


> I have researched the one I will use but have not consulted (yet)...I am going to giver her the him or me discussion first.. if after the 1 day grace period she has not returned: I will skip consultation and file D.
> 
> Tommorow is our first "date night" I plan to have the him or me discussion at the goodbye of our date.


Why not just file first? Why keep giving her options to keep you as a back up plan? If she gets those divorce papers and wants to work it out she'll come to you. Don't give her the control. You need to take it.


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## ThreeStrikes

Make sure she buys.


----------



## Here'sHoping

another side note: I am convinced that there is a EA and PA affair ongoing...thanks to this forum. 

However, she has only ever admitted to the EA which allegedly ended 4 months ago even though the (trackable) calls and txts only ended 2 months ago.

Are WE SURE HE is still in the picture?


----------



## Here'sHoping

Jasel said:


> Why not just file first? Why keep giving her options to keep you as a back up plan? If she gets those divorce papers and wants to work it out she'll come to you. Don't give her the control. You need to take it.


I believe Will_Kane has provided a very realistic recipe for success. His step one is to have the convo, Then file if she doesnt return. I dont mind changing the order but I guess it would have to make sense first.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

*"Well once she got away from me she was like a dog off the leash. I couldnt get her on the phone I would talk to my kids everyday and they would talk about mommy being out with friends. So my wife was spending alot of time out and without the kids. This grew my suspicion so I vowed to work even harder when she returned and that I should have never stayed behind. The day they returned I was very excited she would surely see how hard I was working for her affection and I would never let her out of my sight again. However after being home for about 15 minutes she told me we need to talk. I thought this was great because she had been so distant and cold for the last 6 months that we were finally going to get somewhere. She informed me that she was not happy, needed space to find herself, lost herself, needed to miss me again etc."*

Yes, he is still in the picture. She was banging him back east, and was so emboldened by it that she offered to move out a mere 15 minutes upon her return. 

She couldn't wait to get away from you so she could continue her affair without having you looking over her shoulder.

"I need to miss you again". 

Ugh. How lame is that?


----------



## walkonmars

Here'sHoping said:


> ...However, she has only ever admitted to the EA which allegedly ended 4 months ago even though the (trackable) calls and txts only ended 2 months ago...
> 
> *Are WE SURE HE is still in the picture?*


HH, we, all of us know how much you want your wife back. 

The reality is she moved out. She said "it ended" 4 months ago. But you KNOW there was contact for at least 2 more months. 

People rationalize all sorts of things. She could have meant, "sexual contact ended 4 months ago - when she was with him last" What she didn't say was that it ended because they couldn't be together physically for a while" 

She could have meant, the EA ended. But didn't say that she now considers it a full romance and not an 'affair'. 

See what I mean? Rationalization. Justification in her own mind. 

Now why isn't it possible and even much more likely that she has a skype account? You can't monitor that can you. 

My guess is that the administrators at skype are blushing at the back-and-forth video chats going on between them.

You have no idea if she has another "special" phone with a special ringtone - with only her toxic girlfriend and her boyfriend as contacts. Is it impossible or likely? Why is it an advantage for her to be out of sight in another house rather than in a separate room in your house? 

I like Will Kane's plan. I like it a lot. You should still see a lawyer for a consultation because when you give the "him or me" speech she's going to hit you with all sorts of bullsnot. She's going to threaten you with all sorts of evil; take the kids; take you to the cleaners; kick you out of the house. 

She will tell you how she's being so nice to you and you are being mean. You will leave frightened after apologizing to her. She will still have her cake. etc. You need to know what your rights are so you can laugh at her threats.

You want her back. People in hell want a glass of cold water. They have a better chance at getting what they want than you do if you don't keep your focus.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

walkonmars said:


> Why is it an advantage for her to be out of sight in another house rather than in a separate room in your house?


Well, she *did *try locking herself in the bathroom for a while. But, HH wouldn't leave her alone. 

Too hard to skype there anyways.

Does her new apartment have a pole?


----------



## Here'sHoping

Also with regard to the him or me conversation...Im not sure if I should OWN the idea, tell her i got it on the internet  , or make up some fake councelor that advised me.


----------



## sandc

NEVER reveal your sources. This is your idea.

Do we mind guys and gals?


----------



## Here'sHoping

FYI-Just read about the laws regarding D in my state...once the petitioner files there is an automatic injuntion put in place by the court.

Part of that injunction is that kids cannot leave the state without both parents written consent....hmm, she knew she had this trip coming up when she went and saw the lawyer before.

*She knew my daughter really wanted to go


----------



## walkonmars

Knowledge is power. You can bet her lawyer told her to make nice with you for as long as she can. 

He probably also told her how to act if you become bothersome to her. Please don't yell at her. All she needs is one person (like her toxic friend) to say they saw you being abusive and she will slap a TRO on you so fast you'll wonder what happened. 

Sometimes they only give you 10 minutes to clear yourself out of the house. Be very careful. Act like a snake-handler. Listen more than talk. Keep your distance from her so she doesn't 'fall' because you pushed her. 

Better safe than sorry.


----------



## Will_Kane

Here'sHoping said:


> Also with regard to the him or me conversation...Im not sure if I should OWN the idea, tell her i got it on the internet  , or make up some fake councelor that advised me.


If she thinks you're getting your ideas from a bunch of Internet yahoos, she won't believe you can stick to it.

Even if you found out about it here, you have to believe it's the course of action YOU want to take.

If you need to tell her where it came from, just tell her that you've had a change of heart.


----------



## Here'sHoping

Just looked back through the phone bills...First contact 77 minutes about a week before hotel fight...the fight was her stressor that allowed her to feel entitled to move forward with what she knew was wrong...must be why she points back at it so justifiably.


----------



## WhatASituation

What is it with all of these affairs with old HS flames?!?! FB strikes again I guess!

Sorry you're here OP! It just sucks!


----------



## carmen ohio

Here'sHoping said:


> Also with regard to the him or me conversation...Im not sure if I should OWN the idea, tell her i got it on the internet  , or make up some fake councelor that advised me.


Dear HH,

I'm not sure you're getting the picture here. The point is for you to _convince_ your wife that you _won't tolerate_ her continuing to cheat on you, not because some advisor told you not to tolerate it but because _you have self-respect and don't want a cheating wife._

Read some of the other threads on TAM and you will learn that your best hope of saving your marriage comes from your acting like a guy for whom cheating is cause for divorce that can be avoided _only_ with a complete confession, sincere contrition, NC with the OM ever again, total openness and "hard lifting" from your WW.

As long as your mindset is, "gee, I'll be nice to her and hope that she'll choose me over the OM," it is almost guaranteed that you will lose her. _Women_ like _men_, not _namby-pambies_. Be a man. A man doesn't let his woman cheat on him and get away with it. He either dumps her or, if he thinks she's worth it, gives her one chance and one chance only to mend her ways.

Think Russell Crowe ("Gladiator"), not Steve Carell ("40 Year-Old Virgin").

Good luck.


----------



## Here'sHoping

Thanks Carmen...I am working to get to that mindset I have just been doing it wrong for so long it is taking a little while to sink in.


----------



## walkonmars

HH
carmen ohio, along with everyone else is right about the 'act like john wayne' (my era) attitude. 

I posted this earlier for a poster who was, IMO, too fearful to confront his wife. 

This is from a cheating girlfriend. She's explaining to other cheaters why she took up with a married man (MM). The thread is titled something like "Why I felt entitled" - that's the gist of the thread. I bolded the part that carmenOhio was alluding to. 



> ···I was talking to my-then-BF on phone when MM and I had just begun our working friendship. BF notices I had begun speaking about MM frequently during our review-of-the-day calls, and made an inquiry as to what the guy is like. BF seems settled by the innocent exchange of support MM is providing for me.
> 
> Time passes. I mention to BF that MM and I have a lot of common interests and "Isn't that interesting? How cool is that?". BF makes comment about how he didn't like how MM got to spend time alone with me but recognized I needed his company as my life was crumbling and MM was central to helping keep it afloat. More time passes. BF and I are talking more but seeing each other less. I tell BF that MM gave me a hug during our work together. BF says it's comforting to know I have a friend like MM.
> 
> All the while, I unwittingly sh1t-tested my BF. I always told him about MM's interactions with me, I kept very open and honest about our conversations and BF just went with it. *BF trusted me but he also was not defending his "territory". I smelled weakness and I was tired of weakness.* So tired of having to hold everything up under my own power and not getting any help from him. Superwoman has to rest sometime, am I right?
> 
> *Looking back, BF had it within him to save that sinking (relation)ship*. Yes, I could have had more control and not waved my arms for rescue whenever I spotted MMs life raft. If the person you love isn't willing to throw you a life preserver when you're waving your arms? You swim towards the life raft.


HH this girl shyt-tested her bf and he failed.

(shyt test = a hard time is given to see how much shyt they will eat. More = wimpy & unworthy)


----------



## Acabado

Here'sHoping said:


> Just looked back through the phone bills...First contact 77 minutes about a week before hotel fight...the fight was her stressor that allowed her to feel entitled to move forward with what she knew was wrong...must be why she points back at it so justifiably.


The rationalization machine started working BEFORE she called BFF. You don't call an old BFF out of the blue without thinking about it, she had a motivation. She called, tested the waters, tought he could be possibility, since then she was acting as indivitual, not as a married woman. The fight was orchestrated. She has been having an EA-PA since then. The affair is still ongoing.


----------



## alte Dame

Acabado said:


> The fight was orchestrated.


:iagree:


----------



## Here'sHoping

Acabado said:


> The rationalization machine started working BEFORE she called BFF. .


I think your are correct sir...just checked and the call originated from her! they must have been chatting it up prior to the actual call.


----------



## Here'sHoping

wow, blame it on booz <yikes> I just blasted all of her family and friends with the

"Dear friends of me and my wife,

I am heartbroken to disclose to you that WIFE'S NAME HERE, has begun an extramarital affair with ASSHO*LE, a childhood friend of hers. I am devastasted and worry about my children, whose lives may be destroyed by her actions. 

I ask that you, as a person of importance to her, to please help her understand the importance of her conduct regarding the future of her children and of her marriage with a husband who loves her very much. I trust your judgment and hope you will help us at a time when we so dearly need your help."

email...wonder what tomorrow will bring.


----------



## sandc

Here'sHoping said:


> wow, blame it on booz <yikes> I just blasted all of her family and friends with the
> 
> "Dear friends of me and my wife,
> 
> I am heartbroken to disclose to you that WIFE'S NAME HERE, has begun an extramarital affair with ASSHO*LE, a childhood friend of hers. I am devastasted and worry about my children, whose lives may be destroyed by her actions.
> 
> I ask that you, as a person of importance to her, to please help her understand the importance of her conduct regarding the future of her children and of her marriage with a husband who loves her very much. I trust your judgment and hope you will help us at a time when we so dearly need your help."
> 
> email...wonder what tomorrow will bring.


:smthumbup:

Just hold your arms up and scream. It's funner that way.


----------



## tom67

Just say like from the movie network I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!


----------



## Chaparral

Be prepared for the "I was going to work on it before you did this" speech. Tell her every one says that is what cheaters always say when what they have done is found out..


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Also be prepared for her denials, and then her attempts to make you out to be the villain.

It would have been better if you had confronted her, with D papers in hand, first...

but, what's done is done.

I'm glad you got off the fence.:smthumbup:


----------



## carmen ohio

walkonmars said:


> HH
> carmen ohio, along with everyone else is right about the 'act like john wayne' (my era) attitude.
> 
> I posted this earlier for a poster who was, IMO, too fearful to confront his wife.
> 
> This is from a cheating girlfriend. She's explaining to other cheaters why she took up with a married man (MM). The thread is titled something like "Why I felt entitled" - that's the gist of the thread. I bolded the part that carmenOhio was alluding to.
> 
> 
> 
> HH this girl shyt-tested her bf and he failed.
> 
> (shyt test = a hard time is given to see how much shyt they will eat. More = wimpy & unworthy)


Good post, walkonmars. Really illustrates the point.

HH needs to read "The Married Man Sex Life Primer" by Athol Kay.

BTW, I'm also from the John Wayne era. Just trying to make my metaphors more relevant to a younger crowd.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Wow Here'sHoping. Bravo to you for the way you've completely turned around in 2 days from being a doormat to taking control of your life. Feels good doesn't it?

Be prepared for the shyte. It will hit soon like a ton of bricks! And get those divorce papers going!!


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

carmen ohio said:


> Dear HH,
> 
> *I'm not sure you're getting the picture here. The point is for you to convince your wife that you won't tolerate her continuing to cheat on you, not because some advisor told you not to tolerate it but because you have self-respect and don't want a cheating wife.*
> 
> Read some of the other threads on TAM and you will learn that your best hope of saving your marriage comes from your acting like a guy for whom cheating is cause for divorce that can be avoided _only_ with a complete confession, sincere contrition, NC with the OM ever again, total openness and "hard lifting" from your WW.
> 
> As long as your mindset is, "gee, I'll be nice to her and hope that she'll choose me over the OM," it is almost guaranteed that you will lose her. _Women_ like _men_, not _namby-pambies_. Be a man. A man doesn't let his woman cheat on him and get away with it. He either dumps her or, if he thinks she's worth it, gives her one chance and one chance only to mend her ways.
> 
> Think Russell Crowe ("Gladiator"), not Steve Carell ("40 Year-Old Virgin").
> 
> Good luck.


:iagree:


----------



## walkonmars

Here'sHoping said:


> wow, *blame it on booz* <yikes> I just blasted all of her family and friends with the "Dear friends of me and my wife [letter]...wonder what tomorrow will bring.





Here'sHoping said:


> ... I have not paid as much attention to my wife as I should have for going on 2 years now. *I chose to hang out with my buddies and drink beers* over her company on many occasions.





Here'sHoping said:


> About 2 months after the night of the fight in the hotel,* I came home a little tipsy*...


HH
Do you drink every day?
Are you an alcoholic? 
Would you admit it if you were?

There's something wrong HH. 

How many decisions of this magnitude have you made while drunk?

I may be mistaken but I think you have two big problems. We all know your wife is one. 

But I think alcoholism is a problem you haven't admitted. 

This decision you made was a good tactical decision. But that you made it and want to "blame it on booz" shows that if anyone calls you on the decision to send the message you want to say "It was the booz - sorry" instead of what you should say: "Yes, I did this. I did it because it's right and I'd do it again".


----------



## Here'sHoping

UPDATE!!
wife just called pissed!

her: whats with spamming everyone's inbox are you trying to make me the bad guy to all my friends and family

me: no I just felt like I had to expose your affair in the hopes of making it less mysterious and attractive to you

her: well I have some things about you I can tell everyone

me: look, I'm not trying to battle this out with you. My only agenda here is to end your affair

her: well I don't think that was the right thing to do

me: well I think you need to make a decision...you have had six months to choose me or him. You don't need to decide right now, but you need to come home tomorrow if not I will take it as you choosing him.

her: so your giving me an ultimatum to come home tomorrow <angry>

me: no I'm telling you to make a decision; him or me.

her: ok "tone:you really want to do this <pissed>"

me: ok

her: ok well I will talk to you tomorrow <not sounding like she coming home or anything>

me: ok

her: bye

me: bye

end of call


----------



## Here'sHoping

walkonmars said:


> HH
> Do you drink every day?
> Are you an alcoholic?
> Would you admit it if you were?
> .


I will not deny that I do drink alot...Which, has been a big factor in driving my wife toward the affair. I do not consider myself an alcoholic nor do I drink every day. I may drink 2-3 times a week. I also think the alcohol made it easier to execute sending the mass message, but the decision to do it was made sober and of clear mind.

As part of my super-husband mode I cut most of my drinking out.


----------



## tom67

Don't forget to change the locks if she isn't coming back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## walkonmars

Here'sHoping said:


> I will not deny that I do drink alot...Which, has been a big factor in driving my wife toward the affair. I do not consider myself an alcoholic nor do I drink every day. I may drink 2-3 times a week. I also think the alcohol made it easier to execute sending the mass message, but the decision to do it was made sober and of clear mind.
> 
> *As part of my super-husband mode I cut most of my drinking out.
> 
> Good! Let's keep it that way.
> 
> *


Nice way to handle yourself with her btw. Keep to your word.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

You're doing great, HH.

You drew a line in the sand.

Now there are no doubts that the affair is ongoing, as she did not deny it.

Next step....get to a lawyer and start the D process.

Also, work on exposing OM to his wife.

Be a step ahead of her. Be smarter, more savvy.

*She *will decide if she will end the affair, not you.

You need to take actions as if she has chosen him. To protect yourself and your kids.

Good work so far. Stay strong and steel yourself for her counter-punch.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

You just rocked her world, btw.:smthumbup:


----------



## Here'sHoping

I guess our date is off for tonight...


----------



## Chaparral

*His wife doesn't know??????????*


ThreeStrikes said:


> You're doing great, HH.
> 
> You drew a line in the sand.
> 
> Now there are no doubts that the affair is ongoing, as she did not deny it.
> 
> Next step....get to a lawyer and start the D process.
> 
> Also, work on exposing OM to his wife.
> 
> Be a step ahead of her. Be smarter, more savvy.
> 
> *She *will decide if she will end the affair, not you.
> 
> You need to take actions as if she has chosen him. To protect yourself and your kids.
> 
> Good work so far. Stay strong and steel yourself for her counter-punch.


----------



## Chaparral

Here'sHoping said:


> I guess our date is off for tonight...


She is still going to try and waffle, although I thought her response would be a lot worse.

When she does you should already have an appt with an attorney and just tell her when the appt is.

Change the locks. You could end up missing a lot of things you are fond of.


----------



## walkonmars

chapparal said:


> She is still going to try and waffle, although I thought her response would be a lot worse.
> 
> *When she does you should already have an appt with an attorney and just tell her when the appt is.*
> 
> Change the locks. You could end up missing a lot of things you are fond of.


:iagree::iagree: and one more thing, :iagree:


----------



## Here'sHoping

I feel like I need to say it...but my goal here is still to save my marriage, its beggining to not feel that way. Are we still on track?


----------



## tom67

Here'sHoping said:


> I feel like I need to say it...but my goal here is still to save my marriage, its beggining to not feel that way. Are we still on track?


You have to be willing to lose the marriage in order to save it. You have taken your power back by showing you can move on without her now the ball's in her court.


----------



## sandc

Here'sHoping said:


> UPDATE!!
> wife just called pissed!


:smthumbup: Very well handled.


----------



## walkonmars

Look HH, you can't drag her home by the hair caveman style. 
You can't make her come to you if she just doesn't want to. 

At the moment, she is sitting on the fence waiting for something from the old boyfriend. She is doing whatever she can to entice him. 

She's visited him twice. Probably keeps in daily contact through whatever means. She is trying hard to pull him in. He hasn't visited her right? 

She's getting support from a toxic friend. But. But, but she's also keeping you in the back of her mind as the safety valve, the plan B emergency chute. If she wasn't she would have divorced you already. 

So, we all recommend giving her a shove from the fence. Him or Me. From your POV she has a central place in your life. 

From her POV you have a marginal place in hers. Principally as the father of her children. You haven't acted "manly", you've done (I'm not trying to dis you, I'm being objective from your own descriptions) - you've done wimpy things; housemaid, beggar, nuisance, pest, babysitter. All unattractive qualities. 

Now, I'm not saying that doing housework, babysitting, etc are bad things. They're great things. Great things in a committed marriage. But unattractive to a woman who is LOOKING for a man. 

Standing up for yourself, demanding respect, exhibiting self-respect, acting with integrity, not accepting infidelity or treachery. These are characteristics of a man of quality. An attractive man. 

She may not WANT you regardless of how attractive you are. If so, then so be it. But your best shot is telling her what you told her last night. 

"get off the fence. I'm not a toy or puppy to be played with. I demand respect. You're my wife or you're not".


----------



## Acabado

At this moment you have* no marriage* at all. It's all paper.
- Your wife is having an ongoing affair with her soulmate for a while
- She left to, moved out, moved in with an enabler - cheating GF, to carry on with the affiar nad her plans to have you in limvo until she has her doks lined up to make her official exit. She has been holding the cards in this farce of marriage, acting as single, as individual, not as a wife. Since this started she has been making decisions for you by having you in the dark, orchestrating all.

You have no marriage. You are just realizing it and taking the hard instance, giving her a chance to go back from this situation to the marriage (little chances) or make it official, even if the timing is not the one she had planned.
What you did, needs to keep doing, is the only chance you have.

Lawyer up, file for divorce. The fact she's avoiding is her answer to your demand. She's likely seeing her lawyer too telling him time is key. You need to follow through. Calm but firm.
Implement, live the 180.


----------



## sandc

Here'sHoping said:


> I feel like I need to say it...but my goal here is still to save my marriage, its beggining to not feel that way. Are we still on track?


There is an old saying on TAM: You have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it. You've just shined a very bright light into the dark places she's been skulking in. She's bound to kick and scream. She won't think rationally until the shock is past. 

You also need to expose to OM's wife or girlfriend if he has one. This will cause him to throw your wife under the bus. When she she has no one to turn to she MAY come back to you.

You've also got to face the possibility that she's just completely checked out of the marriage and is beyond saving. The best thing for YOU is to act as if this is the case. Act as if you're going to move on without her. If she thinks you can go on with life and be perfectly fine without her, she'll start trying to save the marriage. Maybe. No guarantees but it has worked countless times before.


----------



## tom67

Now contact the omw asap. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by doing this. If you have to hire a pi to get the info do it today.


----------



## Acabado

Remove MOM from the equation.
Expose him to his wife and friends.

News from GF's BH side?


----------



## TRy

Here'sHoping said:


> I feel like I need to say it...but my goal here is still to save my marriage, its beggining to not feel that way. Are we still on track?


 At this point, the odds of saving your marraige actually go down the more that you try to save the marraige. Right now your wife knows that no matter what she does she can have you back anytime that she wants, so there is no urgency in ending the affair. Your spammed email said as much. She sees no risk to caking eating and enjoying the affair before deciding. The longer that she continues the affair, the less likely that she will choose you.

Right now you need to get mad. Right now you need to decide that you want a divorce and mean it. Right now you need to stop taking about taking her back and tell her that you have decided to move on. Right now she does not respect you and she cannot be in love with someone that she does not respect. This will force her to respect you and either decide to stay with the other man or to work at convincing you to stay in the marraige. That is right she needs to show remorse and be the one that works at trying to save the marraige. If she does not fight the divorce, then it was over anyways but now you know and have saved your dignity. 

She will test you by holding out a bit of hope, and if you take the bait early, she will know that you do not mean business and go back to cake eating. File for divorce and wish her a good life with the other man. Tell her that you know that there is someone out there that would appreciate you and make you happy and that now is a good time for you to start looking for that person. If she starts to talk to you about saving the marraige, tell her that it is too late for that and mean it. If she keeps at trying to get you to change your mind tell her that you will think about it but will process with the divorce process until you have had more time to decide what you want to do. 

Only if she keeps trying to save the marraige should you think about trying to work it out with her. There are no guarantees that she will want to save the marraige, but this gives you the best odds of saving your marraige long term because it requires that she respect you.


----------



## Jasel

tom67 said:


> *You have to be willing to lose the marriage in order to save it.* You have taken your power back by showing you can move on without her now the ball's in her court.



This. :iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## MattMatt

walkonmars said:


> HH
> carmen ohio, along with everyone else is right about the 'act like john wayne' (my era) attitude.
> 
> I posted this earlier for a poster who was, IMO, too fearful to confront his wife.
> 
> This is from a cheating girlfriend. She's explaining to other cheaters why she took up with a married man (MM). The thread is titled something like "Why I felt entitled" - that's the gist of the thread. I bolded the part that carmenOhio was alluding to.
> 
> 
> 
> HH this girl shyt-tested her bf and he failed.
> 
> (shyt test = a hard time is given to see how much shyt they will eat. More = wimpy & unworthy)


Actually, no. She set a test for herself ("can I be faithful?") *and she proved she could not be faithful. She failed.*


----------



## Acabado

And please, don't call her except for kids and logistics, don't bring the ultimatum or the relationship again.
If she doesn't com home, that's her decision to your ultimatum. Follow through.
In case she reaches out you tell her her actions spoke for herself. You gave her the opportunity to give the marriage a last shot but she spit back that chance in your face. She knows damm well what's need to be done. Meanwhile you proceed with the natural consequences: the legal stuff. If she wants to fix things she can seek advice about "how to".

Divorces procedings can be stopped anytime. It takes a while.


----------



## Here'sHoping

Acabado said:


> And please, don't call her except for kids and logistics, don't bring the ultimatum or the relationship again.


Good timing I have resisting the urge to email her and try to put things in perspective for her...my hope that she will realize the full gravity of the situation.

I was also thinking...show her your not a doormat <tonight was datenight> send her a text tell her be ready a 6 I'm picking you up and were going to dinner.


----------



## sandc

You should. After all your world wasn't rocked by disclosure. Hers was. If you were expecting to go to dinner you should pick her up and go to dinner. Just don't be surprised if she stands you up. Go to dinner anyway.


----------



## tom67

sandc said:


> You should. After all your world wasn't rocked by disclosure. Hers was. If you were expecting to go to dinner you should pick her up and go to dinner. Just don't be surprised if she stands you up. Go to dinner anyway.


Show her you're not phased good plan don't forget to change the locks though.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

tom67 said:


> Now contact the omw asap. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by doing this. If you have to hire a pi to get the info do it today.


I'm sorry Here'shoping, but her response should be proof enough that it's over. It was insulting, childish, and disrespectful. 

In no way does she want to end this affair. Isn't it obvious from her snide comments?

You cannot save what you cannot control. 

Also, why would you want to go to dinner with her? That's just another sign that she can fall back on you if she feels like it. 

You have given her until tomorrow to decide. Wait until then.

But the real point is: tomorrow YOU must decide.


----------



## TDSC60

From the conversation it is clear that:
She is pissed at being exposed.
She is pissed that she cannot make you the bad guy in the marriage any longer.
She has zero respect for you or how you feel. It is all about her.
And lastly - SHE DOES NOT BELIEVE YOU HAVE THE BALLS TO FOLLOW THROUGH AND DUMP HER. SHE NO LONGER THINKS OF YOU AS A MAN.

Like others have said - you have to be willing to let go of the marriage to get your wife to return. If she had it in her mind that there was a remote chance of staying married, her entire attitude would be different. The confrontational way she asked "Are you sure you want this?" shows disrespect and confirmation that as far as she is concerned the marriage is history.

Do not back down. She could wake up when reality finally sets in or she could really be gone. Either way, you are in the fight now instead of sitting on the side lines wishing she would do X or wondering what her next move will be.

Good luck.

Edit: Most people associate an extramarital affair with sex with someone other than your spouse. I notice she made no attempt to deny that it was sexual and made no demand that you tell these people it was an EA and nothing physical with OM has happened. Her attitude is almost confirming that it is a PA. Do you still want her back?


----------



## Here'sHoping

I think I can get over a PA at least I want to have an opportunity to cross that bridge...What I am afraid of is blaming myself for the failures of our marriage, which drove her to the affair...I know 3Cs but we have survived ALOT and I have always been there for her.

I checked out first choosing my lifestyle over being with her. I'm not sure if I would have succumbed on my own. I wish she would have tried harder to snap me out of my funk. I agree the A never justified. 

I wish she would leave me on her own if she was going to leave...I feel like she is hypnotized and she "hasnt been herself for some time now" 

I guess I refuse to allow it to end like this


----------



## Here'sHoping

I also think she is genuinely confused. Once she started down the rabbit hole it was too late. She found herself in over her head and FAILED to end it when I confronted her the first time.

I dont think she is as plotting and planning as it comes accross. I dont think she understands her own feelings and thats why she really agreed to the thearapy...she is looking for a life raft but afraid to re commit to me. I dont know what the current state of the A is...they may have broken up a month ago for all I know.

Maybe now she feels confused and guilty over what she did and wants "her space" without me up her arse doing the pick me dance.

I know this will frusterate some of you that keep reassuring me..and I dont mean too. I Have re-read every post you guys have written to me at least 10 times. I agree with PreRaphElite that I need to decide some things too.


----------



## carmen ohio

Here'sHoping said:


> Good timing I have resisting the urge to email her and try to put things in perspective for her...my hope that she will realize the full gravity of the situation.
> 
> *I was also thinking...show her your not a doormat <tonight was datenight> send her a text tell her be ready a 6 I'm picking you up and were going to dinner.*


Dear HH,

You've given her until today to move back in or you are done (or so you've said). If she tells you she's not moving back but you go on your date with her anyway, that says you were not serious that she has to choose between you and the OM.

My suggestion would be to call her shortly before the date and say, "we were going to go out tonight and I still want to do that if you're moving back in as I've asked you to do. But, if you're not, there aren't going to be any more dates. So, do we have a date or not."

Good luck.


----------



## walkonmars

carmen ohio said:


> Dear HH,
> 
> You've given her until today to move back in or you are done (or so you've said). If she tells you she's not moving back but you go on your date with her anyway, that says you were not serious that she has to choose between you and the OM.
> 
> My suggestion would be to call her shortly before the date and say, "we were going to go out tonight and I still want to do that if you're moving back in as I've asked you to do. But, if you're not, there aren't going to be any more dates. So, do we have a date or not."


HH 
Even if she gets mad and says "no!" 
Her respect for you will have risen a mile. She may even begin to have second thoughts.


----------



## carmen ohio

walkonmars said:


> HH
> *Even if she gets mad and says "no!" *
> Her respect for you will have risen a mile. She may even begin to have second thoughts.


I'm confused, walkonmars. Are you saying HH should go on the date even if his WW says she's not moving back home?


----------



## Here'sHoping

I talked to her this morning and gave her until tomorrow to move back in...date night is tonight.


----------



## Chaparral

carmen ohio said:


> I'm confused, walkonmars. Are you saying HH should go on the date even if his WW says she's not moving back home?


Wasn't the deadline tomorrow?


----------



## carmen ohio

Here'sHoping said:


> I talked to her this morning and gave her until tomorrow to move back in...date night is tonight.


HH,

Sorry, I misunderstood the timing.

If I were you, I would cancel the date to emphasize the point that you are serious about dumping her if she doesn't come home.

If you decided, nevertheless, to go on the date, be careful what you say. Don't say anything that detracts from what you've already said. Avoid the issue of the problems in your marriage, stick to frivolous subjects and, if she brings it up, repeat what you've said -- she has to choose between you and the OM by tomorrow or you are leaving.

Whatever you do, don't give her reason to believe that she can continue to fence sit.

Best of luck.


----------



## TRy

Here'sHoping said:


> I talked to her this morning and gave her until tomorrow to move back in...date night is tonight.


 How could you even consider going on a date with her tonight, and then drop her off knowing that she was going to spend time with the other man?


----------



## walkonmars

carmen ohio said:


> I'm confused, walkonmars. Are you saying HH should go on the date even if his WW says she's not moving back home?


No, I'm saying that HH should tell her what you said: (paraphrase)
I'll be there if you're coming home. if not I won't show up. 
Do we have a date?


----------



## Wiserforit

Here'sHoping said:


> I also think she is genuinely confused.


Nope. YOU are.


Think of all the great men in history too, with the adoring women at their feet, fawning for his attention. Because of all the power and sexuality that exude from a man who looks confused. 

Genghis Khan - confused.
Alexander the Great - confused.
Here's Hoping -


----------



## Chaparral

I think he should go all out. Look good, exude confidence, and NOT bring up any relationship talk. At the end of the date, say something about sad it would be if this was the last time they saw each other. Or you might do something really fun and tell her you want to have a good time since you might not see each other again.

Does she still wear her rings? Are you still having sex with her? Sorry if this has already been covered.


----------



## Here'sHoping

chapparal said:


> Does she still wear her rings? Are you still having sex with her? Sorry if this has already been covered.


She never has really worn her ring...her job requires her to wear latex gloves.
No sex since end of October.


----------



## sandc

Part of the R should be she wears her ring while not at work.

Mark your territory my man.


----------



## MarriedTex

Call her up, act as if assuming date is still on. Don't predicate her participation on her decision. You're just going out on a date, no commitments. 

If she says, she has to "think" tonight. Say, "Fine, but you shouldn't be thinking on an empty stomach. You gotta eat anyway. Let's go have some laughs."

Keep it as light and breezy as possible. Essentially, for a night at least - you be the OM. No responsibilities. No kids. Just focus on having fun with her. Easier said than done, I know. If you can do this, though, it speaks well of your ability to move on no matter what she decides to do.

Make the call.


----------



## Here'sHoping

Sorry Tex I got a little ahead of you...also, when we agreed to date night the kids got excited and wanted to go with us on our first one...cant really so no to them since this has been hard on them as well, maybe we can work our way to date night and family night.

anyway, UPDATE:
texted the wife for date.

me: can you and the kids be ready for dinner by 6?

her: dinner??? We were gonna have spaghetti tonight and stay in. Can we go tomorrow night??

her: I havent been able to cook for them. Kind of was looking forward to it tonight.

PROLOGUE: (tomorrow is Friday I almost always drink and hang out on Friday nights)

me: Ok be ready at 6 tomorrow

her: okie dokie will do. Thx.

her: where r we going??

me: name of restaurant on name of road

her: k

Now I may be reading into this but I think that her demeanor is changing...she is asking things that she would otherwise tell me...i.e "cant go out tonight made spaghetti for the kids" etc.


----------



## Chaparral

Here'sHoping said:


> Sorry Tex I got a little ahead of you...also, when we agreed to date night the kids got excited and wanted to go with us on our first one...cant really so no to them since this has been hard on them as well, maybe we can work our way to date night and family night.
> 
> anyway, UPDATE:
> texted the wife for date.
> 
> me: can you and the kids be ready for dinner by 6?
> 
> her: dinner??? We were gonna have spaghetti tonight and stay in. Can we go tomorrow night??
> 
> her: I havent been able to cook for them. Kind of was looking forward to it tonight.
> 
> PROLOGUE: (tomorrow is Friday I almost always drink and hang out on Friday nights)
> 
> me: Ok be ready at 6 tomorrow
> 
> her: okie dokie will do. Thx.
> 
> her: where r we going??
> 
> me: name of restaurant on name of road
> 
> her: k
> 
> Now I may be reading into this but I think that her demeanor is changing...she is asking things that she would otherwise tell me...i.e "cant go out tonight made spaghetti for the kids" etc.


I guess its good that she did not act like a jerk. Did she not know it was date night?

Dates do not include kids. Dates are romantic.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

She just gave herself a pass for answering your "me or him" ultimatum tomorrow.


Clever girl.


----------



## Here'sHoping

chapparal said:


> Dates do not include kids. Dates are romantic.


Yeah we agreed on saturday that the kids could come on this first one...It is a new experience for them us living apart, and I think they are looking for a little bit of normalcy. As well as they have taken everything I can not deny them...

If we make it to future date nights kids will be excluded.


----------



## carmen ohio

Here'sHoping said:


> Sorry Tex I got a little ahead of you...also, when we agreed to date night the kids got excited and wanted to go with us on our first one...cant really so no to them since this has been hard on them as well, maybe we can work our way to date night and family night.
> 
> anyway, UPDATE:
> texted the wife for date.
> 
> me: can you and the kids be ready for dinner by 6?
> 
> her: dinner??? We were gonna have spaghetti tonight and stay in. *Can we go tomorrow night??*
> 
> her: I havent been able to cook for them. Kind of was looking forward to it tonight.
> 
> PROLOGUE: (tomorrow is Friday I almost always drink and hang out on Friday nights)
> 
> me: Ok be ready at 6 tomorrow
> 
> her: okie dokie will do. Thx.
> 
> her: where r we going??
> 
> me: name of restaurant on name of road
> 
> her: k
> 
> Now I may be reading into this but I think that her demeanor is changing...she is asking things that she would otherwise tell me...i.e "cant go out tonight made spaghetti for the kids" etc.


HH,

Tomorrow is when she's supposed to tell you if she's coming home or not, right? So, if she says no, why would you have a date with her?

I sense your losing your focus and courage. Hope I'm wrong.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Here'sHoping said:


> her: dinner??? We were gonna have spaghetti tonight and stay in. Can we go tomorrow night??
> 
> her: I havent been able to cook for them. Kind of was looking forward to it tonight.


In other words, she blew you off tonight. Spaghetti? Seriously? vs. a dinner out?

Probably has a skype chat planned tonight after she puts the kids to bed...early.


----------



## TRy

Here'sHoping said:


> Sorry Tex I got a little ahead of you...also, when we agreed to date night the kids got excited and wanted to go with us on our first one...cant really so no to them since this has been hard on them as well, maybe we can work our way to date night and family night.
> 
> anyway, UPDATE:
> texted the wife for date.
> 
> me: can you and the kids be ready for dinner by 6?
> 
> her: dinner??? We were gonna have spaghetti tonight and stay in. Can we go tomorrow night??
> 
> her: I havent been able to cook for them. Kind of was looking forward to it tonight.
> 
> PROLOGUE: (tomorrow is Friday I almost always drink and hang out on Friday nights)
> 
> me: Ok be ready at 6 tomorrow
> 
> her: okie dokie will do. Thx.
> 
> her: where r we going??
> 
> me: name of restaurant on name of road
> 
> her: k
> 
> Now I may be reading into this but I think that her demeanor is changing...she is asking things that she would otherwise tell me...i.e "cant go out tonight made spaghetti for the kids" etc.


 She just took control again. Stood you up for date night and moved it to when she knew that you had other plans; she could have saved the spaghetti for tomorrow or asked you over for dinner but did not. She has confirmed that you are so afraid of her b*tch demeanor that she has been giving you that you will let her be in control if she acts like a normal wife every once in a while. She is giving you crumbs and you are happy.


----------



## committedwife

Here'sHoping said:


> *her txt back to me:*
> _Thank u. I appreciate all of ur efforts and I hope we get through this. We are strong. I think I just lost myself somehow. I love our family. Im sorry for the disappointment. I've been a mess for a while now and should have never let it get to this point._


So, you know she's cheating on you, right? What do you want to do with that knowledge?

ETA: Sorry, I'm just getting caught up on your thread.


----------



## committedwife

walkonmars said:


> Most assertive thing you can do is to follow Three-strike's advice. Then lay divorce papers at her door. Blindside style. Don't threaten just do it.


Make sure you are clear that YOU will be the primary parent for your children. If she wants to run off, the kids aren't going with her.


----------



## 3putt

carmen ohio said:


> HH,
> 
> Tomorrow is when she's supposed to tell you if she's coming home or not, right? So, if she says no, why would you have a date with her?
> 
> I sense your losing your focus and courage. Hope I'm wrong.


Actually, if he does this right, it could have a pretty good impact. I would have her meet him there instead of picking her up. After a nice dinner and nice conversation he again gives the ultimatum, but now it's face to face. She's then forced to make a decision right then and there while also having to say it directly to him and not on the phone. The only way it will work though is if he's prepared to stand his ground if she says no and not back down.

If she says no, stand up, leave enough money to cover the check, and walk out.

Or, if you want to be a real a$$hole about it, just go and leave her with the check.


----------



## the guy

Thats the thing she already has the kids with the toxic friend and her kids.

I think date night is great as long as OM is out of the picture.

Remember date night is a tactic to raise your attraction level, so its not the place to give her the "him or me speach".


----------



## the guy

Date night is a great way to reconnect, but if OM or any OM that toxic friend brings around... then you can't compete with a new guy.

So keep in mind your rewards versus your consequences you show her.


----------



## committedwife

Here'sHoping said:


> @ThreeStrikes and walkonmars
> my next moves
> conversation me or OM if me come home and etc. etc
> 
> she gets pissed says OM is gone but "I need time"
> Then go see lawyer get D papers served but continue to counseling?
> 
> She chooses OM...Proceed directly to lawyer for D
> 
> sound about right?


You're going to have to give her a Come to Jesus talk. Straight and to the point. Here's the deal: if she wants to be with OM, you can't stop her; she's a big girl who will have to sink or swim with her decisions. 

She's going to need to tell you NOW what it's going to be. If it's OM, she needs to pack her bags and get out. WITHOUT THE KIDS.

If she wants to stay, she needs to send a No Contact letter to OM and tell him that she is thoroughly ashamed, as a married woman, of her actions with him. She will NEVER contact him again, and will never ACCEPT contact from him again. She intends to rebuild her marriage and will never again expose her husband and children to the heartache of her actions with OM. 

After that:
- She changes her cell phone number
-She blocks OM from her emails account
- She gives you all of her passwords
-You put a keylogger (without her knowledge!) on her computer
-You put spyware (without her knowledge!) on her phone
-You put a VAR (without her knowledge!) in her car.
-You buy Surviving an Affair by Dr. Willard Harley (get it on amazon.com) This will be your handbook to recovering your marriage. 

What do you know about OM? You need to expose this to his family. Is he married? If so, his wife will be invaluable for you. You need to let her know what they're up to. Have you done this yet?


----------



## the guy

I think your family night is just that...it more for the kids so capitalize on this and do what you can to remind her of how inportant family is.


----------



## the guy

What concerns me is your wife capacity to screw around. I mean if she can screw around on her husband, then she can screw around on her OM. After all hes' 2k away....
This toxic friend she is living with is bad news, but you know that. So keep raising that attraction level and work on how important family is and how unhealthy a broken home can be.


----------



## walkonmars

Stop beer night Friday's - very unattractive. Find some sport, the gym, a running club. Work on yourself not your gut. You need to put away the alcohol during this time. 

I won't say more about this okay.


----------



## the guy

This isn't all about the OM..sure it started with him, but that toxic friend gave her a taste of what a uncommited relationship is like and IMO WW can tell OP she has stopped contact with OM...but what about the guys she is meeting with toxic friend = " I'm not talking to OM, I just need time" ....kind of thing!


----------



## committedwife

Here'sHoping said:


> My sister has offered in the past to go full detective on his @$$ get his wifes info etc and I have called her off...basically stating I dont care about him I only care about my wife. But I can see where getting him in hot water may work in my favor.


Now, why in the world would you have this hands-off attitude?? This guy is TAKING YOUR WIFE FROM YOU! What don't you get about that?? You only care about your wife?? Don't you realize that he is directly threatening your marriage??

I like the way your sister thinks. And you, sir, would do well to take a page from her book. Sheesh! Are you kidding me? Your wife and that guy are screwing each other!!! What are you missing,here??


----------



## committedwife

the guy said:


> This isn't all about the OM..sure it started with him, but that toxic friend gave her a taste of what a uncommited relationship is like and IMO WW can tell OP she has stopped contact with OM...but what about the guys she is meeting with toxic friend = " I'm not talking to OM, I just need time" ....kind of thing!


Yep. Toxic Friend needs to go. That should be another of your requirements to agree to recover your marriage, HH.


----------



## the guy

I think a revision needs to be stated. Its not the " me or him" speech, but "get your butt home of lose me for ever" speech!


----------



## committedwife

ThreeStrikes said:


> Yep.


x2


----------



## the guy

committedwife said:


> Yep. Toxic Friend needs to go. That should be another of your requirements to agree to recover your marriage, HH.


You need to reword this......"requirements to agree to recover *her* marriage"


----------



## Chaparral

Are you saying you go out on Fridays to drink with your friends?


----------



## committedwife

Here'sHoping said:


> I think I just found the OM wife and messaged her on facebook,
> 
> "Hello My name is MYNAME I am looking for family of POS that graduated high school in City STATE Year. My wife has been having an extramarital affair with him for the past 6 months. We have 2 wonderful children an her activities have put our marriage of 14 years at great risk. If I have contacted you by mistake please accept my apologies. Thanks."


----------



## the guy

From what I read it sounded like OP was going out with the guys for brew. Infact he mentioned it as a cuase for the marriage problems. But then he went into super husband mood and stopped.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## committedwife

tom67 said:


> Don't forget to change the locks if she isn't coming back.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, she'll be back. Refer to my other posts regarding what she'll need to do to before you will allow her to come back.


----------



## committedwife

the guy said:


> You need to reword this......"requirements to agree to recover *her* marriage"


No. It's HIS marriage with her. If she is lucky, she'll agree to his terms. She's given up ownership by her actions. Actually, I should have worded it 'requirements to recover THEIR marriage.'


----------



## the guy

committedwife said:


> Oh, she'll be back. Refer to my other posts regarding what she'll need to do to before you will allow her to come back.


Are you reffering to OP stance with OM? 

The OM is on the other side of the country, I think it has become more of being out of a marriage now and the fog of being single and besides the kids has all the privielage of being single. 

Thats a taste that will be hard to leave with out the consequences for taking a bite in the 1st place.

I mean WW was messing around well before the motel arguement and it propably went PA when WW went back east and now she is in this fantasy that continues with back east OM *and* all the guy she is currenty meeting.

After all, in her mind she is no longer married.

Seperating in order to give her space was a very bad idea IMHO.


----------



## the guy

committedwife said:


> No. It's HIS marriage with her. If she is lucky, she'll agree to his terms. She's given up ownership by her actions. Actually, I should have worded it 'requirements to recover THEIR marriage.'


If OP doesn't have the mind set that *his* marriage is over and is willing to just let her go, then WW still has all the power and she can continue to do what she wants with out consequence.

BUT....if WW wants to save this marriage then it is *her* marriage to save and do the heavy lifting to save it...

Why would you or me for that matter give in to terms if we both knew our spouses aren't going anywere no matter how we behaved.

His old lady is screwing around.. it is now *her* marriage to save or not. 

make sence?

"just let them go" remember that post?


----------



## Will_Kane

Here'sHoping said:


> Yeah we agreed on saturday that the kids could come on this first one...It is a new experience for them us living apart, and I think they are looking for a little bit of normalcy. As well as they have taken everything I can not deny them...
> 
> If we make it to future date nights kids will be excluded.


This first date night is a waste of time on all levels. You and her and kids were home together night after night for years, wife moved out a short while ago, now you are going on a date night. Kids do not belong on a date night. If you want to have one family night and one date night, that would be better - or is she "too busy" to devote two nights to you and the kids.

You are starting to lose me with how you are going about this.

She is in the middle of an affair. YOU are her HUSBAND. "Date night" is a term coined for husbands and wives to spend time together ALONE WITHOUT THE KIDS and do GROWNUP STUFF, ROMANTIC STUFF.

Date night is for husbands and wives who either have no problems in their marriage and want to spend adult time with each other or husbands and wives who are having problems and are COMMITTED to working on their marriages. IT IS NOT FOR SPOUSES ACTIVELY ENGAGED IN AN AFFAIR. Start having date nights to work on your marriage AFTER she ends her affair. Otherwise, she will be dating you and dating him. Dating both of you. She took vows with you. How humiliating that you have to win your wife back from her new lover! How much harder it will be to do so with the kids sitting with you. Do the kids go on her dates with other man, or are those just for dinner and sex?

Go on your "date night" tomorrow night, but call it "family night." Don't talk about your marital problems in front of your kids. Tell her you need to talk to her alone Saturday regarding your "me or him" proposal. Don't try to do it in five minutes while the kids are away from the table.

If she brings up exposure again, tell her you are fighting for her and you are fighting for your marriage and you make no apologies for doing so. Tell her you will improve your behavior, you will cut out the drinking and the going out with the guys, that you want your marriage to be better than ever. Also tell her that you will not be humiliated by her dating another man while married to you, either she works on the marriage, or you will move on without her - you're not waiting any longer. Tell her if she changes her mind, after the divorce if you're still single, she can try to win you back.

She wants to live a single lifestyle with her toxic girlfriend, contact other man whenever she wants, go on double dates with toxic girlfriend and whatever man she sets your wife up with, keeping you at home waiting on her final decision. She can go on that way indefinitely, she may never tire of it.

My opinion - the longer you live apart, the less likely you will stay married.


----------



## the guy

@CW, youv'e been around long enought to remember that "just let them go" by .......shout I forgot...was it from Almostrecovered or Morti?

God Iv'e been her to long


----------



## Will_Kane

I think it was Morituri.


----------



## Jasel

It was Mori. I found that thread and just bumped it. At least I think that's the one you're talking about. HH I really think you should read it. I think you could use a new perspective.


----------



## happyman64

> *Thank u. I appreciate all of ur efforts and I hope we get through this. We are strong. I think I just lost myself somehow. I love our family. Im sorry for the disappointment. I've been a mess for a while now and should have never let it get to this point.*


Will Kane is on the money Heres Hoping!

The day your wife said the above quote to you, you should have stepped up to end her Affair. A physical Affair.....

But when she deleted all her texts you would have known everything. And she obviously does not want you to know.

So take the team's advice. be firm. Do not settle for being her Plan B. If you two decide to Reconcile you will learn things she did that you wish you did not know.

So get tough. Take control of your life. If she does not choose you then fix your issues and be the best man you can be, be the best Dad you can be and live the best life without her you can.

She will take notice of all these improvements but do them for you and your kids.

And lastly, if your email blast was wrong she would have really denied it. And if her Affair was over she would have said that to you to make herself not look so bad. So be aware of that.

Did any other family members or friends reach out to you about the email or Affair???

HM64


----------



## the guy

What I found interesting to the spam email is when WW mentioned OP secrets that other poeple wouldn't want to know about him.

It leads me to think that yes infact this affair was something more then she makes it out to be... a dirty little secret!

From were I'm sitting she basicly admitted to doing something she wasn't proud of. A dirty little secret.

Did anyone else catch that?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Will_Kane said:


> *This first date night is a waste of time on all levels. * You and her and kids were home together night after night for years, wife moved out a short while ago, now you are going on a date night. Kids do not belong on a date night. If you want to have one family night and one date night, that would be better - or is she "too busy" to devote two nights to you and the kids.
> 
> You are starting to lose me with how you are going about this.
> 
> She is in the middle of an affair. YOU are her HUSBAND. "Date night" is a term coined for husbands and wives to spend time together ALONE WITHOUT THE KIDS and do GROWNUP STUFF, ROMANTIC STUFF.


That should be some charade you put on in front of each other and the kids.

I, for the life of me, would definitely not go on this date/family night until you get an answer to your question. Either she ends her affair and moves back home (away from toxic friend), or divorce proceedings will start.

HH, you are being too 'Mr. Nice Guy', hoping to nice her out of her affair. It doesn't work.

She has some audacity to suggest going out with you and the kids while she's still involved with OM.

Gawd, what a cake-eater. And you are feeding it to her by the fork-load! Stop it....today.

If you don't enforce this ultimatum you gave her, about choosing you or OM *tomorrow*, she will know that she has nothing to fear from you, and can continue cake-eating whilst throwing you a bone periodically to keep you hanging in limbo.

Limbo is a bad place to be.

Stick to your convictions. You know what you need to do.


----------



## Here'sHoping

I spoke with her father today...

he said when he got the spam he called her this morning. She told him that I was deflecting my own issues onto some dreamed up affair she was having. I wanted him to understand so I spoke to him for a couple of hours explained alot of what I learned on this board and in the end I think he believes me but didn't know what I wanted him to do about it. 

I told him I didnt expect anything from him just that he shouldn't be so quick to believe what she was saying and dismiss my exposure and that if there were any opportunities for him to try to snap her out of this he should take them. she tried to demonize me to him..again bringing up the hotel fight and how she had to take the kids and leave and how upsetting that was for her. 

My point here is that most people probably heard the same story from her and most likely believe her...THIS IS COMPLETELY OUT OF HER NATURE! she has not been denying the A took place or is taking place with me anymore. However she is not admitting anything either (likely on the advice of a lawyer) I am not reverting back to doormat, but I need a little more to get there...It truly was a tough sell explaining all of the circumstantial evidence to her dad.

Now I know many of you are rolling eyes right now...I am very close to making contact with OMW any day now she will be able to corroborate the obvious assumptions we have made. I am reluctant to go out on a limb when there are still facts that are unknown to me...The OM could be dead for all I know. 

I doesn't change that fact that the A DID happen and my WW is engaged in a toxic relationship with her BFF. 

We are making alot of assumptions here when we do not need to. She may have got a taste of WW enjoyed it, the A ended, now she wants to Single life it up for a while...How do I sound demanding to end the PA if it no longer exists. OMW will be able to confirm if he was even in town while my wife was back east. (he lives about 6 hours from wife's mother) I can put him in wife's mothers town at time of meet one due to Obituary from his Grandmother...again...OMW can confirm this.

I would hate to make a lot of assumptions file D and find out I was wrong on half and was a couple of days from revealing everything.

This Board has done wonders for me...I have Manned up, I am taking control, I am no longer breaking down when I look at a pair of shoes she bought me for no reason. But I have to slow things down a bit right now. The hurting has stopped I do not feel like I am in Limbo, I am just trying to understand EVERYTHING before I make a wrong decision. BTW the SPAM blast was the right move, in fact I should have done it alot sooner...I also should have allow my sister to try to blow this thing up with OMW 2 months ago. For now I just need a little more to get me total buy in. 

I hope this doesn't offend any of you that have been helping me through this time, and I am not calling anything off just yet. So Please dont crucify me for taking a few more days if needed.


----------



## Here'sHoping

the guy said:


> I think date night is great as long as OM is out of the picture.
> 
> Remember date night is a tactic to raise your attraction level, so its not the place to give her the "him or me speach".


I like this perspective! :iagree:


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## jim123

Why do you think she wants the single life. File D and move on. Moving on will get you the best results.


----------



## MarriedTex

Just an idea here:

Do you have a lawyer yet? Can you hire one Friday?

Doubtful that you can have divorce filing drawn up in a day. But if she has no answer for you tomorrow, you could consider giving her your lawyer's business card at the end of the date.

She will likely try to not answer you on the "him or me" question. You do not bring it up all night. You get to the end of the evening and the issue will not have been addressed. As you say goodnight, give her the card. (Of course, only do this if you are ready for the potential consequences either way. She's planning to file on you, so I think you have nothing to lose. You may think differently.)

"We're at the end of our visit and you have still not answered my question. That, in itself speaks volumes. Here's the card for my lawyer. You will be hearing from him next week. " And then calmly walk away.

She's good at this stuff. It's very apparent that she's very good at managing this relationship. If you don't step up your game, she's going to eat you alive. 

Best of luck.


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## Here'sHoping

This may sound taboo even asking...But if the kids are with us and we are having a family night / date night...Would it be unfair if we ganged up on her and asked her to come home? 

(They were not part of the exposure and only believe mommy is away because of my failures in the marriage *not necessarily by her word just perceived action after two years of her complaining about me not being around enough and drinking beers with my buddies...I think they have been optimistic about this being temporary because they have seen super-husband/dad for the past few months)


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## OldWolf57

HH, we can understand not moving to fast, butt A or not, she is NOT working on the marriage if she is living apart. Especially with the toxic cheating bff.

Three or 4 pages back, you was still trying to deflect a lot of the blame from her. BUT, ask urself this. " How did she just happen to have his # to be able to call him right after the motel fight" ?
Oh, if your sister knows this woman, why are you ****ing around ?? Just ask sis to get her contact info, or just blow it up to her.

Your job is to get her home, so the lil day to day family interactions can work on her. She works and lives with this cheater. She has TOO much influence in your ww thinking.
So either home or file. That don't men it can't be dropped, but it will show her you are manning up.


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## sandc

Here'sHoping said:


> This may sound taboo even asking...But if the kids are with us and we are having a family night / date night...Would it be unfair if we ganged up on her and asked her to come home?
> 
> (They were not part of the exposure and only believe mommy is away because of my failures in the marriage *not necessarily by her word just perceived action after two years of her complaining about me not being around enough and drinking beers with my buddies...I think they have been optimistic about this being temporary because they have seen super-husband/dad for the past few months)


Short answer don't use the kids. If she's going to commit suicide or something fine, use the kids to talk her off the ledge. Do NOT use them in the war with your wife. It's against the rules of engagement.


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## TDSC60

You are acting (or I should say NOT acting) out of fear. Fear of losing her. Fear of the unknown future. Fear of change. Fear of doing the wrong thing. Fear of doing the right thing for yourself. Fear of upsetting your wife. Fear of being seen as the "bad guy".

It is time for decisive action if you hope to save your marriage. Others have said it and it has proven true time and time again. You have to be willing to walk away from the marriage in order to have a chance to save it. She has to believe that you will divorce her and be just fine without her.


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## tom67

TDSC60 said:


> You are acting (or I should say NOT acting) out of fear. Fear of losing her. Fear of the unknown future. Fear of change. Fear of doing the wrong thing. Fear of doing the right thing for yourself. Fear of upsetting your wife. Fear of being seen as the "bad guy".
> 
> It is time for decisive action if you hope to save your marriage. Others have said it and it has proven true time and time again. You have to be willing to walk away from the marriage in order to have a chance to save it. She has to believe that you will divorce her and be just fine without her.


Please stay frosty and focused you won't regret it.


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## PreRaphaelite

Here'sHoping said:


> I spoke with her father today...
> 
> he said when he got the spam he called her this morning. She told him that I was deflecting my own issues onto some dreamed up affair she was having. I wanted him to understand so I spoke to him for a couple of hours explained alot of what I learned on this board and in the end I think he believes me but didn't know what I wanted him to do about it.
> 
> I told him I didnt expect anything from him just that he shouldn't be so quick to believe what she was saying and dismiss my exposure and that if there were any opportunities for him to try to snap her out of this he should take them. she tried to demonize me to him..again bringing up the hotel fight and how she had to take the kids and leave and how upsetting that was for her.
> 
> My point here is that most people probably heard the same story from her and most likely believe her...THIS IS COMPLETELY OUT OF HER NATURE! she has not been denying the A took place or is taking place with me anymore. However she is not admitting anything either (likely on the advice of a lawyer) I am not reverting back to doormat, but I need a little more to get there...It truly was a tough sell explaining all of the circumstantial evidence to her dad.
> 
> Now I know many of you are rolling eyes right now...I am very close to making contact with OMW any day now she will be able to corroborate the obvious assumptions we have made. I am reluctant to go out on a limb when there are still facts that are unknown to me...The OM could be dead for all I know.
> 
> I doesn't change that fact that the A DID happen and my WW is engaged in a toxic relationship with her BFF.
> 
> We are making alot of assumptions here when we do not need to. She may have got a taste of WW enjoyed it, the A ended, now she wants to Single life it up for a while...How do I sound demanding to end the PA if it no longer exists. OMW will be able to confirm if he was even in town while my wife was back east. (he lives about 6 hours from wife's mother) I can put him in wife's mothers town at time of meet one due to Obituary from his Grandmother...again...OMW can confirm this.
> 
> I would hate to make a lot of assumptions file D and find out I was wrong on half and was a couple of days from revealing everything.
> 
> This Board has done wonders for me...I have Manned up, I am taking control, I am no longer breaking down when I look at a pair of shoes she bought me for no reason. But I have to slow things down a bit right now. The hurting has stopped I do not feel like I am in Limbo, I am just trying to understand EVERYTHING before I make a wrong decision. BTW the SPAM blast was the right move, in fact I should have done it alot sooner...I also should have allow my sister to try to blow this thing up with OMW 2 months ago. For now I just need a little more to get me total buy in.
> 
> I hope this doesn't offend any of you that have been helping me through this time, and I am not calling anything off just yet. So Please dont crucify me for taking a few more days if needed.


Here'shoping, I will try to offer some perspective on this.

You want your wife back, it's clear. The approach you have taken however is to give her the benefit of the doubt until you find "more." More what? It is your WW who would have to come clean and tell you all, but she is in no way ready or willing to do that. Full disclosure is out of the question for her.

So ask yourself why that is. Let's go even further. It's not only that she is unwilling to come clean on the whole affair but rather that she's still lying to you and to everybody.

When your spam email went out, what was her response? She lied to her father--to her father! She demonized you, blamed you. If you hadn't talked to him, he would have her story alone and you'd be the villain.

You are not seeing the forest for the trees. The one who is making assumptions is you. _You_ believe she is confused. She put those words into your mind. They aren't yours. It's you that wants to believe_her_, even though she continues to lie to you and everyone. You simply do not know another person, even your wife, as well as you think. Maybe it's in her nature, maybe not. Maybe there are feelings and desires that have been buried for a long time, but something has triggered a change in her. The idea that she's just out of her mind temporarily and she'll soon regain her senses is the biggest myth of all. That's just social morality talking which is there to make us all feel better and you're just aping it. 

This date-night thing is a mistake, because what is needed between you two is a serious head-to-head conversation about whether she's in or out. What she's probably taking away from this is that she can continue to manipulate you in order to keep the situation as it is now, which is the way she wants it. Now she used the kids to manipulate you by saying that she's made dinner for them and now the issue is delayed one more day. She probably made them dinner alright, in between texting her lover. 

You want her to come back, you are ready to forgive her and heal. What you don't want to process is that she isn't there. She does not want to be forgiven, she does not want to come home, and so you are playing a game with the illusion of her and not the real her.

You are not ready to take the hard step, that seems clear to me.


----------



## tom67

It will take time I,m 3 years out considering he is doing ok, it's a process. Since I've had my gf ex has been nicey nicey with me but for now I have had enough self respect to say whatever. It's triggering me with what he's going through.


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## Jasel

Here'sHoping said:


> This may sound taboo even asking...But if the kids are with us and we are having a family night / date night...Would it be unfair if we ganged up on her and asked her to come home?


You're more likely to drive her away if anything. It will just come off as needy, desperate, and pretty much the opposite of "manning up".


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## Here'sHoping

Consider this, She was not able to take the hard step and file D on her own...If I do so it could play right into her favor...She will accept that what she has done was wrong and accept that I have filed and it is no longer within her control...

Right now she is willing to work towards saving the marriage, what if filing D backfires and I am giving her what she is unable to go through with on her own. Once D is filed she thinks "whats the point of working on the marriage now" and simply wait the 60+ days until I have given her exactly what she wants.


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## Chaparral

Here'sHoping said:


> Once D is filed she thinks "whats the point of working on the marriage now


Nothing you have written indicates this is even slightly true. All her actions oppose this veiw.


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## Here'sHoping

PreRaphaelite said:


> It is your WW who would have to come clean and tell you all, but she is in no way ready or willing to do that. Full disclosure is out of the question for her.
> 
> So ask yourself why that is. Let's go even further. It's not only that she is unwilling to come clean on the whole affair but rather that she's still lying to you and to everybody.


If we can make it to counseling I believe I can get her to crack and admit everything in front of a professional. She is looking for someone to OK what she is doing or has done. She will demonize me to the counselor and hope the counselor tells us, that given the circumstances what she did was normal or natural. She needs and independent perspective to validate her actions. 

Of course, she will not hear this, but I also want her to hear a non biased opinion that NOTHING justifys an Affair. I need to stretch this thing along and make it to the counseling session 2 weeks. I have lost respect in her eyes and and I am working on that, but she has a toxic BFF patting her on the back every day.

She cannot undo this on her own. The BFF is likely reassuring her that she has not done anything wrong and that I left her no choice. I think I have her father in my camp but she is lying to him (he may get through to her, yet). Aside from the kids, right now she has no reason to come home. Afterall so far, the objective opinion is supporting her A.


----------



## ArmyofJuan

Here'sHoping said:


> This may sound taboo even asking...But if the kids are with us and we are having a family night / date night...Would it be unfair if we ganged up on her and asked her to come home?


Oh God no, don't do this! This would backfire horribly.

The more you pressure her, the more she will run. You can't guilt her back nor should you try. She has to want to come back or else it won't work.



> Consider this, She was not able to take the hard step and file D on her own...If I do so it could play right into her favor...She will accept that what she has done was wrong and accept that I have filed and it is no longer within her control...


Honestly, it would be in your best interest if you file as it gives you control back. You would show her that time is up and you are not going to be a chump. No self respecting person would waste time trying to win back someone having an affair and that's the impression you need to give her. 




> Right now she is willing to work towards saving the marriage, what if filing D backfires and I am giving her what she is unable to go through with on her own. Once D is filed she thinks "whats the point of working on the marriage now" and simply wait the 60+ days until I have given her exactly what she wants.


I feel bad for you, you are just as much in a fog as she is.

She is NOT working on saving the M, you wouldn't be here if she was. 

When you give someone what they want they stop wanting it so much. One of the BEST ways to stop a divorce is to AGREE with the divorce. They expect you to fight them on it because they see you as the enemy so they will want to opposite of what you want. They more you want and push for a D, the more likely they will have second thoughts on it. 

Filing for a D is nothing, I've seen people R on the day they went to finalize the D (or as one guy here R’ing after the D). You have to show strength if you want any hope of R, acting passive is going to make things worse.

Read this thread:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-immediately-drop-all-contact-divorce-ws.html


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## Here'sHoping

ArmyofJuan said:


> Read this thread:
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-immediately-drop-all-contact-divorce-ws.html


I have looked for stories like mine where the WSO has separated and continued relations with AP...and filing D snapped WSO back, I havent found any.

I agree that this strategy seems very effective if used at the right time. I fear I may have missed the boat on my opportunity and filing D would only play in her favor.


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## MarriedTex

OK, so don't file for D.

So, what consequences does she face for her actions? What next steps do you plan to take to convey the idea that her actions are inappropriate in the context of your marriage.

You're working your way back into trying to "nice" her back in the marriage. I, too, am a nice guy by nature. But sometimes you have to stiffen your spine, call a spade a spade and then accept the consequences of the situation.

You are operating from a defaault position of fear, not strength. Unfortunately, this will hinder your ability to achieve the outcome you seek.


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## Chaparral

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/61712-could-you-reconcile.html


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Will_Kane said:


> Your lack of action and stand-offishness in this whole thing if baffling.
> 
> Your behavior in going out with friends for beers and neglecting your wife IS part of this equation, but it DOES NOT justify her cheating.
> 
> It is hard to make a plan when you don't know what's going on - and you're clueless. Luckily, we see this so much we can figure it out just based on what little you gave us.
> 
> Assume the following is true unless you find out definitively otherwise:
> 
> 1. Your wife and other man have told each other they are soul mates and destined to be together. They have met up during each of her trips back east and had sex as many times as they could.
> 
> *2. Your wife and other man would be together already if not for their kids and their jobs. They both have seen lawyers and they both know that they can not just up and take the kids out of state to live away from the other parent. Also, they need their jobs.*
> 
> *3. They are making plans to be together. They have pledged "not to give up on each other" or some such. They are in contact every single day - the first thing they do each morning and the last thing they do each night is contact each other*.
> 
> When you confronted your wife originally about this situation, she immediately and sincerely pledged to work on the marriage and then she proceeded to not work on the marriage one little bit, and, as a matter of fact, increased contact, spent hours upon hours in the locked bathroom, and got angrier and angrier at you. THAT is what we are talking about when we say watch the actions, not the words. By the way, your trying to be a better husband had zero effect on her anger towards you. It did not cause her anger nor did it relieve it. No matter how you acted, you only were an obstacle between her and a perfect life with other man. That's why she was angry.
> 
> *So she saw a lawyer, he told her she could not take the kids away from you without an agreement. She planned to move out and did. Now she can contact other man whenever she pleases without your unwelcome and unapproving glances. Also, she now has an UNLIMITED amount of time to make plans with other man. You have been NEUTRALIZED and are now IRRELEVANT to her plans. She will be pleasant to you as long as you KNOW YOUR PLACE and DO AS YOU ARE TOLD. She will throw you a bone like marriage counseling, but she WILL NOT TELL THE TRUTH and will not make any true effort. She will just go through the motions.*
> 
> Your marriage MAY be salvageable. It may not.
> 
> *Your story is not unique. Your wife is not unique. You are not 1unique. Your situation is very common. There always are a few variables, but nothing significantly different. Cheaters follow a very predictable script. Betrayed spouses also follow the script. The plot outline could take one of a few courses, like bad TV movies. You and your wife both are following the script to a T.*
> 
> Your wife is "fence-sitting" and "eating cake." She is "in love" with the other man. This will run its course on its own. In about a year, or two, maybe at longest three. That's how long it takes to get over the "in love" feeling, which eventually turns into the kind of love you and your wife have for each other, the more mature settled kind of love, not the exciting, not-knowing-what's-going-to-happen-next, butterfly-in-the-stomach love. After the "in love" feeling wears off, your wife may stay with the other man out of habit for a year or a few more. Then she will contact you via Facebook, remembering only the good times, and want to reunite with you. If she doesn't meet anyone else in between. So, if you follow your current course, you might have your wife back in 7-10 years or so.
> 
> Your wife wants the safety of you at home and the excitement of her new lover. She's not going to give up either unless you force her to (or unless the other man gets hit by a bus, struck by lightning, finds someone else, or otherwise dumps her).
> 
> *You can wait until hell freezes over and it still won't be enough time for your wife to decide to stay with you. The only way you are going to save your marriage is to end the affair. That is the first step and no guarantee that you can save your marriage.*
> 
> Your wife is "in love" with the other man, which means she is infatuated, gets butterflies in the stomach, like a teenager with a crush. Her "affair" with the other man is pure fantasy-land; none of the harsh realities of life intrudes. In her affair with him, she does not have to pick up his dirty underwear off the floor, do laundry, cook, clean, or deal with any of life's unpleasantness. With him, there is only I love you's, sex, and talk of living in a perfect fantasy world together. Of course, no such perfect fantasy world awaits your wife, and somewhere deep down she knows that, but a big part of her wants to believe in that fantasy, just like you want to believe that she will come to her senses on her own. She won't.
> 
> *Right now, she likes the fact that she can still have her other man knowing you will be there as a backup in case it falls through. She is sitting on the fence eating cake.*
> 
> There is a reason she hasn't left you for him - what is it? The kids? The job? Other man's hesitance to leave his wife and family? If she is in love with him and they are soulmates destined to be together since high school, why hasn't she left you for him yet?
> 
> *Your first step is to talk to your wife. Get her alone without the kids around. *Tell her that you love her and are sorry for whatever legitimate gripes she has against you, that you will improve yourself and improve your marriage, that you feel your marriage will be better than ever if you try to reconcile. * Next, tell her that although you feel this way, you cannot go on this way any longer waiting in the wings as she takes her time and decides. Give her one day to decide. Tell her no decision means she chooses other man. * Tell her you took vows together, you've been married many years, have had children together, and have been through life's ups and downs together and you don't plan on waiting any longer as her "backup plan" while she continues her affair with the other man.
> 
> If your wife does choose to commit to the marriage, she agrees to give up all contact with the other man now and forever, handwrite a no contact letter to the other man, move back in, tell you the full truth of her affair, and give you complete transparency of all her communication devices and accounts. *If she can't agree to this, file for divorce. Don't threaten it, just do it.*
> 
> Divorce is a long process. You can always stop it if your wife comes to her senses. If not, you save yourself months and months of pain and unhappiness, which ends in a bad result anyway.
> 
> If your wife does not want to meet your conditions and work on the marriage, start moving on with your life. Stop engaging with her as your wife, and start engaging with her as your soon-to-be-ex-wife. Be pleasant, but not romantic. Talk to her only as needed to discuss the divorce settlement. If you are financing her affair in any way, stop. Definitely don't pay for any means she uses to cheat on you.
> 
> *Also, if she doesn't choose to re-commit to the marriage right away, expose the affair to the other man's family and friends. Expose the affair to you and your wife's family and friends. Let them know the other man's name and ask for their support in saving your family and your marriage. Don't tell your wife you are going to do this, just do it.*
> 
> If you want to save your marriage, you have to be willing to lose it. You cannot "nice" your wife out of her affair.
> 
> *The longer you allow this to go on, the more respect your wife is losing for you. She sees a weak-willed man who is not willing to stand up for himself.* When she sees the other man, she sees a strong man who goes after what he wants and doesn't stop until he gets it. Other man may be belittling you to your wife every chance he gets. And if so she likely is listening to it and not disputing it. If the situation were reversed, do you think she would tolerate it? Why are you willing to put up with her cheating on you?


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

HH, please follow Will's advice.

HH, so far you haven't followed the advice you were being given, except for exposing the affair to some of WW's family. She promptly denied any affair, and is demonizing you to her family.

Her father IS NOT in your camp. In fact, he probably called WW right after he hung up with you to "report in."

If filing for D "plays into her favor", then you have already lost her. Sorry. But, I and most of the other posters feel you are wrong. Filing for D will not play into her favor. 

Not filing for D plays into her favor, because it allows her to continue the cake-eating and fence sitting.

Realize that you are option B. OM is option A. If things don't work out with OM (which could take months-years to find out), she may resort to option B with you. Or, it's possible she might have other suitors lined up by then.

*"If we can make it to counseling I believe I can get her to crack and admit everything in front of a professional. She is looking for someone to OK what she is doing or has done. She will demonize me to the counselor and hope the counselor tells us, that given the circumstances what she did was normal or natural. She needs and independent perspective to validate her actions. "*

Counselling doesn't work when the affair is ongoing. I think you are having unrealistic expectations of MC, and you are hoping the counselor will act the "daddy" and tell your WW that what she is doing is wrong. 

Have you considered that WW will simply deny any ongoing affair in MC? That she will give the same reasons for separating that she gave to you? She needed to miss you, blah blah.?


----------



## Jasel

Here'sHoping said:


> I have looked for stories like mine where the WSO has separated and continued relations with AP...and filing D snapped WSO back, I havent found any.
> 
> I agree that this strategy seems very effective if used at the right time. I fear I may have missed the boat on my opportunity and filing D would only play in her favor.



HH I've read through this section from page 97 all the way backwards to page 56 over the past 6 days. Granted I haven't read every thread but I've read quite a few of them. 

The ones whose stories I've read who got their WS to want to R got them to do so by doing the exact opposite of pretty much everything you've been doing.

I read more than a few stories where the BS immediately filed for D, seperation, moved out, kicked the WS out, did the 180, or just went out and started dating and damn near all of them had the WS BEGGING for a second chance. Granted this wasn't always the case and sometimes it happened weeks, months, and in a few cases years down the road. But it seemed to be the case much more often than not.

You've drawn basically no hard lines in the sand for your WS. And even when you do, she constantly crosses them, and you keep capitulating. It's obvious at this point you're simply her fall back guy who she doesn't take seriously (and you really haven't given her any reason why she should), and from how she's acting at this point you're barely even that.

Your wife has all the control in this situation while you have none because you keep giving it to her and she knows it. Now you could TAKE back control but you really need to toughen up, stop trying to "win her back" from the OM, and show her that you're quite capable of moving on without her.

If you want some examples of men who had their wives begging to come back after cheating on them read Rookie4, The-Decieved, and BadBlood's threads. All these men divorced their wives or started dating other women, and every one of them had their wives begging to come back. There are others I've read but those 3 stood out for me because they got what you want by doing everything you haven't been doing. You not only need to change your whole approach to this situation, you really need to change your perspective.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

MY STBXW didn't show any interest in R until *after I filed and moved out.*

Then, and even now, she wants me to come back and R.

Unfortunately for her, its too little and too late.


----------



## Here'sHoping

Jasel said:


> If you want some examples of men who had their wives begging to come back after cheating on them read Rookie4, The-Decieved, and BadBlood's threads.


I've read the recommended Threads above except for BadBlood's (could not locate) I think The-Decieved most closely resembles my situation...

My wife has always been the jealous one to the point of driving me nuts sometimes. She felt emotionally abandoned. She even said about a year ago that she felt like we were "room mates" alot of "scripts right out of his story"

His WW had an affair and they separated and sough MC. etc...The part that's missing is he never filed D. I have thought about dating another woman to get my wifes attention but it felt wrong. 

I DO think that I can put enough doubt out there without actually dating that she will become very jealous and might snap back when she thinks the tables are turned.


----------



## Jasel

Here'sHoping said:


> I've read the recommended Threads above except for BadBlood's (could not locate) I think The-Decieved most closely resembles my situation...


Try "Badblood" without the " 's ". He was banned some time ago but all his threads are there.


----------



## Jasel

Here'sHoping said:


> I've read the recommended Threads above except for BadBlood's (could not locate) I think The-Decieved most closely resembles my situation...
> 
> My wife has always been the jealous one to the point of driving me nuts sometimes. She felt emotionally abandoned. She even said about a year ago that she felt like we were "room mates" alot of "scripts right out of his story"
> 
> *His WW had an affair and they separated and sough MC. etc...The part that's missing is he never filed D. I have thought about dating another woman to get my wifes attention but it felt wrong.
> 
> I DO think that I can put enough doubt out there without actually dating that she will become very jealous and might snap back when she thinks the tables are turned*.


I really think you're missing the point. It's not about giving her doubts and trying to trick her into coming back to you. It's about you needing to change your mentality and start focusing on yourself so you become the man she WANTS to come back to.

How do you feel wrong about dating other women when your wife is screwing some other guy and seems to not feel guilty about it in the slightest? Like I said, you are not behaving or thinking in a way that is going to make your wife come back to you.


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## sandc

When my son was a little guy, h'd always try to run off whenever I'd stop holding his hand. He'd just bolt in any direction as fast as he could. I'd always chase him and catch him of course. One time I noticed he would look back at me as he ran. So instead of chasing him I ran the other direction away from him as fast as I could. He laughed and kept running for a short while. But when he saw me getting farther and farther away he turned around and started chasing me. I kept going until he was crying his eyes out chasing after me.

Sometimes wayward spouses are like that. Stop chasing her. Make her chase you. Have the talk, file for divorce (because she'll say she can't decide), and don't look back. She'll come chasing after you with tears in her eyes. If she doesn't, do you really want to be married to her? And remember, I can't decide, is a decision in and of itself.


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## Acabado

OldWolf57 said:


> Three or 4 pages back, you was still trying to deflect a lot of the blame from her. BUT, ask urself this. " How did she just happen to have his # to be able to call him right after the motel fight"?


Already stablished she called OM *at least* one week BEFORE the - orchestrated - fight (and subsequent new call).


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## Will_Kane

I think your plan about the marriage counselor telling your wife adultery is wrong is based on a misconception.

I don't think most marriage counselors believe that infidelity is NEVER justified.

The counselor is just a man or woman who may have cheated or been cheated on themselves.

They won't even get to the adultery for a few sessions. They will take everything the both of you say as the God's honest truth.

The counselor is working from the standpoint that you both are absolutely sincere and 100% truthful.

That is why marriage counseling almost never works when the affair is still active.

The marriage counselor IS NOT going to interrogate your wife and get her to crack.

On what do you base your expectation of what will occur in marriage counseling?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Here'sHoping

Acabado said:


> Already stablished she called OM *at least* one week BEFORE the - orchestrated - fight (and subsequent new call).


I'm not sure if I have already said this but...early on right after I discovered EA...I peaked at her FB in her phone and saw that he had msg'd her his #...(casual contact like "hey how have you been etc..follow by his # and gimme a call sometime if you want to catch up"

I think she must have toyed with the Idea before convincing herself it was a harmless phone call to an old friend...


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## Shaggy

Why the heck haven't you exposed to the OMW? She should have been the first on you told.

Right now the OM can hook up with your wife at wiill without any fear.


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## Machiavelli

Here'sHoping said:


> I'm not sure if I have already said this but...early on right after I discovered EA...I peaked at her FB in her phone and saw that he had msg'd her his #...(casual contact like "hey how have you been etc..follow by his # and gimme a call sometime if you want to catch up"
> 
> I think she must have toyed with the Idea before convincing herself it was a harmless phone call to an old friend...


Her toxic friend influenced her to have the affair. Birds of a feather flop together.

Here's a question for you: Do women ever hit on you?


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## Here'sHoping

Shaggy said:


> Why the heck haven't you exposed to the OMW? She should have been the first on you told.
> 
> Right now the OM can hook up with your wife at wiill without any fear.


I am working on this...I have FB msgd OMW but she hasnt read the msg yet...I have msg'd about 5 of OMW friends asking them to contact her and let her know she has an urgent msg in her FB inbox...None of my msgs have been read yet (i guess the people never get on their FB) I may reach out to a couple more of OMW friends today...I just dont want to blast them all.

FB is the only contact info I have able to find...I have bout several background people search reports etc...email returned undeliverable phone disconnected


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## Chaparral

YOu don't know where they live?


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## Here'sHoping

UPDATE:

Date night was supposed to be last night, I had told her the previous day to be ready at 6...

When I got home from work I noticed she had been to the house and taken more of her belongings. My gut kind of sank as she was also supposed to come home yesterday.

I tried to force myself to go through with date night anyway because it is something we committed to a week ago and the kids were looking forward to it.

While on my way to her apt. I had to pull off...I could not go through with it...she would continue to fence sit and eat cake forever if I allowed her.

I called her and asked her to meet me. we met in a parking lot and talked for about 1.5 hours. The convo was good no real fighting or hurting one another. I explained to her that it was too hurtful for me to continue to see her until she was serious about working on our marriage and that she wasnt serious about the marriage until she came home.

She tried to deny that the A has anything to do with why she moved out...Even admitted that the A was still ongoing. I told her she was fooling herself and that she was rationalizing like a drug addict. I told her how I knew what she was going through and that I could not compete with the fairytale she is experiencing. I explained that she was under the influence and that the A was the only reason she wasnt serious about us that she could not go even two weeks without talking to him much less leave him forever for me.

Challenge accepted...She told me she would prove to herself that A was not influencing her decisions and she would not have contact with him for 2 weeks. Now I know she will fail she's already tried this twice before. But on any level it works out for me and she may finally realize how out of control she it.

I told her I would have no further contact with her and am canceling our counseling session until she comes home. She did not like hearing this but accepted it. 

Now I wait..not a desperate wait. I hope that she comes home soon. However I will not be pining for her affection or trying to persuade her any longer. The ball is in her court, when I find myself losing interest in her returning I will know that I have moved on and can take the next steps.

I am optimistic right now that she is close to making the right decision. Spam blast was a real eye opener, she was very upset that I was going to end contact until she comes home...In fact I think I was very close to her coming home last night. Her fence sitting days of eating cake are over.


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## Here'sHoping

chapparal said:


> YOu don't know where they live?


They have a PO Box...I think they live with his parents <LAME>


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## Chaparral

Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.

Your welcome


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## tom67

Change the locks already!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Here'sHoping said:


> They have a PO Box...I think they live with his parents <LAME>


Did you use spokeo.com and put int all the info you have?


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## Here'sHoping

chapparal said:


> Did you use spokeo.com and put int all the info you have?


Yes even tried my name and saw how well it works...Its like these are the paranoid type of people that try to be off the grid.


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## Here'sHoping

tom67 said:


> Change the locks already!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Tom I live in a community property state and until legal action is filed there is no injunction on any of "our" property....I dont have any right to change the locks.

But I am entitled to a key to her apt...


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## Chaparral

Here'sHoping said:


> Tom I live in a community property state and until legal action is filed there is no injunction on any of "our" property....I dont have any right to change the locks.


She moved out. Do you have keys to her place? Change the locks anyway. If she gets a court order fine. Its the message that counts anyway.

Also start boxing her things up. In a few days, send her a text asking her if she wants the wedding pictures.

You are separated. 80% of the couples that separate end up divorced. Wishing this wasn't so won't help. Little nudges might work as in tightening the screws.

Have a visitation agreement in your advantage written by your attorney.

Remember, the chances of reconcilliation are slim and none. When you realize this, life will get much better.

If she thought you were looking at other women it would help too. She thinks you are hanging on...................like snot on a doorknob. EEEEEEEEWWWWW


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## happyman64

Here'sHoping said:


> Tom I live in a community property state and until legal action is filed there is no injunction on any of "our" property....I dont have any right to change the locks.
> 
> But I am entitled to a key to her apt...


So ask for a key. Bet you she balks on that request.

And I commend you on the no date night.

You took the right action. But you can only control you.

Go dark on her. Only discuss the kids.

You need to show consequences for her actions.

And work on yourself during this separation.....


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## Chaparral

Here'sHoping said:


> Tom I live in a community property state and until legal action is filed there is no injunction on any of "our" property....I dont have any right to change the locks.
> 
> But I am entitled to a key to her apt...


Did you get this info from an attorney? Her moving out and being able to come and go as she pleases sounds wrong compared to what others have found.


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## Chaparral

The Sixteen Commandments Of Poon « Chateau Heartiste


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## keko

Here'sHoping said:


> Tom I live in a community property state and until legal action is filed there is no injunction on any of "our" property....I dont have any right to change the locks.
> 
> But I am entitled to a key to her apt...


Didn't you old locks broke and you replaced them at the last minute? Since she wasn't home you couldn't give her the new keys. 

Your welcome.


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## the guy

If I'm not mistaken didn't the front door lock "break" you may as well change the backdoor lock also so that both keys match.

Or was it the other way around "maybe" the back lock "broke" so in order to have the same key you changed both of them.

"Even" though the lock was " broken" when she goes to get in, it will be like....." OMG he changed the freaking lock on me...he most be really moving on" kind of thinking.

I'm sure when you give her a new key she will understand that you had to "fix" the broken lock.


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## the guy

There have been more then a handful of past threads that mention the change in haert by the wayward when the betrayed starts dating or has the "perception" that the betrayed is dating......

A tactic you may want to think about.


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## tom67

the guy said:


> If I'm not mistaken didn't the front door lock "break" you may as well change the backdoor lock also so that both keys match.
> 
> Or was it the other way around "maybe" the back lock "broke" so in order to have the same key you changed both of them.
> 
> "Even" though the lock was " broken" when she goes to get in, it will be like....." OMG he changed the freaking lock on me...he most be really moving on" kind of thinking.
> 
> I'm sure when you give her a new key she will understand that you had to "fix" the broken lock.


Ha leading the witness Ilike that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

the guy said:


> There have been more then a handful of past threads that mention the change in haert by the wayward when the betrayed starts dating or has the "perception" that the betrayed is dating......
> 
> A tactic you may want to think about.


yes it works
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

My ex knows I'm dating and has been after me the last few months. She broke up with ap after a year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Look, find a local PI and pay him to get the contact info for the OMW


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## Here'sHoping

the guy said:


> There have been more then a handful of past threads that mention the change in haert by the wayward when the betrayed starts dating or has the "perception" that the betrayed is dating......
> 
> A tactic you may want to think about.


I have considered this. WW is / was very jealous once upon a time and likely still is. I am not ready to begin dating and it would be unfair to the other person, but I can make my whereabouts a bit more mysterious and certainly peak some curiosity.


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## Here'sHoping

chapparal said:


> Did you get this info from an attorney? Her moving out and being able to come and go as she pleases sounds wrong compared to what others have found.


Not from an attorney just from reading state laws...If we were legally separated I could prevent her from coming and going as she pleases...We are in whats termed a trial separation...The law views us no different than if we were happily married.


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## Chaparral

Here'sHoping said:


> Not from an attorney just from reading state laws...If we were legally separated I could prevent her from coming and going as she pleases...We are in whats termed a trial separation...The law views us no different than if we were happily married.


Does she know that? Misinformation is one of your tools.


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## tom67

Here'sHoping said:


> I have considered this. WW is / was very jealous once upon a time and likely still is. I am not ready to begin dating and it would be unfair to the other person, but I can make my whereabouts a bit more mysterious and certainly peak some curiosity.


Now that's the right attitude. What you do hypothetically is go to backpage and find a "companion" take her out where mutual friends may be. Like Mach says, you'll get her limbic brain going in no time. You will be surprised.


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## the guy

Here'sHoping said:


> I have considered this. WW is / was very jealous once upon a time and likely still is. I am not ready to begin dating and it would be unfair to the other person, but I can make my whereabouts a bit more mysterious and certainly peak some curiosity.


Not only conceal your were abouts but gets some new clothes and a hair cut, a perception that you are out to impress someone.

Not only will it give your chick the desired perception but it will also raise your attraction level.


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## happyman64

tom67 said:


> Now that's the right attitude. What you do hypothetically is go to backpage and find a "companion" take her out where mutual friends may be. Like Mach says, you'll get her limbic brain going in no time. You will be surprised.


I have a friend who got blindsided by his wife last year. He actually had to take custody of his kids.

His wife still would not end her Affair even after exposure.

So he started dating her hairdresser who is a few years younger.

Oh boy, did that wake her up. She took notice and realized her husband had his own plans on how to replace her.

Now look who got left behind.

And his GF thought my buddy's wife is a fool for cheating on him.

The tables were turned.......


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## walkonmars

Dating is dating. Not an engagement. 
What's unfair to the date partner? Are you planning on telling her you want a commitment on the first date?

C'mon Gunga Din, step to the plate. Instead of beer nite - take someone to dinner and a movie. Then home. Easy as pie.


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## Here'sHoping

walkonmars said:


> C'mon Gunga Din, step to the plate.


Really walkonmaras...I had to google Gunga Din and watch the trailer. LOL :lol:


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## jim123

Time to start looking out for yourself. Who knows, Make a future and take control over creating it.


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## Chereeda

Do not, under any circumstances, allow her to take the kids out of state, even just on a visit, even if she has purchased return tickets.


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## ThreeStrikes

Here'sHoping said:


> Challenge accepted...She told me she would prove to herself that A was not influencing her decisions and she would not have contact with him for 2 weeks. Now I know she will fail she's already tried this twice before. But on any level it works out for me and she may finally realize how out of control she it.


How will you verify is she maintains the NC for two weeks?

Surely you can't depend on her to be truthful about it.

Basically, what you did is similar to telling an alcoholic she's an alcoholic. And then the alcoholic is telling you she will avoid alcohol for two weeks to prove she isn't.

Ummm...yeah, would you actually believe her if she swears she didn't touch the stuff?

I wouldn't.


Glad you canceled the date night, though. 

I also agree about changing the locks. I know it might seem extreme to you, but you need to be extreme right now. Also, you need to protect your stuff. She can just waltz in and take whatever she wants right now. Should she attempt to enter your home, and can't get in, it will be another "jolt" to her fog-laden brain.


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## MattMatt

Here'sHoping said:


> Yes even tried my name and saw how well it works...*Its like these are the paranoid type of people that try to be off the grid*.



Now... why would *that* be, d'you think?:scratchhead:


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## Here'sHoping

ThreeStrikes said:


> How will you verify is she maintains the NC for two weeks?
> 
> Surely you can't depend on her to be truthful about it.


I guess my point here is its a win win...If she makes it two weeks good for her more stress on the EA and she will realize she CAN live without him

If not she will have to admit to herself that the she is out of control and that the fantasy is driving her decisions. (she denies that the A has anything to do with her leaving)

She says she will be honest and tell me if she contacts him...No matter what she tells me I know she will fail at this.


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## jim123

You need to prove you can live without her. Get your life back. Moving on will settle this one way or another. Right now it is all about her. Do this for yourself.


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## Chaparral

Chereeda said:


> Do not, under any circumstances, allow her to take the kids out of state, even just on a visit, even if she has purchased return tickets.


get a court order. Unfortunately, you are still not accepting how messed up this is.


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## ThreeStrikes

Here'sHoping said:


> I guess my point here is its a win win...If she makes it two weeks good for her more stress on the EA and she will realize she CAN live without him
> 
> If not she will have to admit to herself that the she is out of control and that the fantasy is driving her decisions. (she denies that the A has anything to do with her leaving)
> 
> She says she will be honest and tell me if she contacts him...No matter what she tells me I know she will fail at this.


Actually, I think you just gave her another 2 weeks to make plans w/OM. And connive with Ms. Toxic.

Wasn't she just in your house taking more stuff to her place?

You two talked for 1.5 hours in a parking lot! What else was said? The more we know, the better advice we can give.

I suggest you lawyer-up ASAP.


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## Machiavelli

Machiavelli said:


> Here's a question for you: Do women ever hit on you?


No? You say the answer is women do not hit on you? Well, you're like most guy's that way, and in your case it's most likely the beer gut. Cut the beer, cut the bread and all other grain products, cut the sugar. Hit the gym. Ignore aerobics/cardio/running and start bodybuilding. Three sessions a week. Concentrate on compound movements to get the biggest fastest results. you want a 32" waist right under the ribs and a minimum 42" chest at 9-12% body fat. Women have a limbic sexual reaction to men with those proportions. It's hardwired and cross-cultural. 

Change your haircut to something 25 year olds are doing. It don't matter that you like it, you're sending a message.

Upgrade your wardrobe to something much sharper than you usually wear. Like a guy who makes twice as much and doesn't get his hands dirty. An alternative is to quit shaving and start riding a chopped hog. Either way sends the exact same message. Both are very attractive to women. To wife, it will be attractive because it telegraphs that you are moving on. She doesn't think you can get another woman and thinks you have no choice but to carry a torch for her. These moves project the actions of a man with choices. If you carry them out, you actually will be a man with choices.

Read Chapparal's link recommendations ASAP: MMSL and The Sixteen Commandments. Find out where you are on The Male Socio

Start going out and having fun. Word will get back to her.


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## Chaparral

I aws just going to ask if he had downloaded the MMSL book yet. Why is it so hard to get the guy's to do one simple little thing? The ones that read it have an eye opening, jaw dropping experience.

HH over the last few years how has your sex life gone?

How has your appearance changed over the years?

How has your wifes appearance changed?


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## OldWolf57

How is it a win win if she still lives with toxic bf ??
Look man, YOU are in the fog. Like Chap said, you still don't see how bad this is.
This woman is conducting an affair. Did she come to you and confess ?? NOOOOOOOOOOO. Did she stay and try to repair the marriage? NOOOOOOOOO. Is she coming home? NOOOOOOOOOOOO.

So why in the heck would you expect her to admit she likes things the way they are, when her actions tell you that??
The blame shifting is just like ALL the cheaters we see here. And your desperation to save your marriage is all she needs to continue.
Let me give you a clue. She is not even going to try. She is going to keep on contacting him. I think even you realize this.
The thing of it is, you actually expect her to be honest with you about it.
She has her freedom to date. She has mistermom at the old homestead taking care of the kids. She even has a wingwoman to hunt with.
What do you have ?? A cooked meal every now and then, and some suppose heartfelt talks.

Can I ask, why are you here if you are NOT following the advice you seek ??


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## walkonmars

Two weeks eh? Not gonna go your way at all. 

Now that she's hooked up with her toxic girlfriend, it won't be long before her circle of friends is made up, not only of her boyfriend, but of other cheating divorced girls and a host of sleazy guys looking for a quick lay. That's what two weeks are gonna get you. 

After two weeks you will to join that group in competing for her attention.

Keep wringing out your emotions until you're emotionally dry. ONLY then will you be able to start anew.


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## the guy

jim123 said:


> You need to prove you can live without her. Get your life back. Moving on will settle this one way or another. Right now it is all about her. Do this for yourself.


And with this......her A has everytning to do with *you* taking her back!

I think its time to start showing thru your own actions that you really don't want her back.

So when 2 weeks come and go I suggest you don't acknowledge her liitle test for her self. I would act like it doesn't matter anymore. And when she brings it up smile and give a pat on the head for a job well done.

Granted its always good to get the OM out of the picture but in this case the matter at hand is the fact that she does not want to come home.


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## Machiavelli

the guy said:


> So when 2 weeks come and go *I suggest you don't acknowledge her liitle test for her self.* I would act like it doesn't matter anymore. And when she brings it up smile and give a pat on the head for a job well done.


Exactly. Women are attracted to men with options. A guy with women lined up outside his bedroom door doesn't need to worry about whether or not he measures up to his wife's lovers because it doesn't matter. He's the man with options, like whether to replace the cheating b!tch with one woman or a whole harem.

Be that guy with the options.


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## Here'sHoping

Okay well its been a while so alot of the advice I have received has been repeated I know the recipe that you are suggesting...There is frustration on the part of YOU the helpful community, but I need to believe in what I am doing...I have learned alot and will continue to seek advice. For now, I am doing a little soul searching and cherry picking the advice that best suits my situation. 

Someday soon my wife will be back in my arms or a distant memory. Until then signing off. I understand the rationale of what to do and have come to terms with my situation.


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## sandc

Please come back and update us periodically.


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## ThreeStrikes

HH is the type of guy that likes to blaze his own trail. Rather than take advice, he wants to learn things for himself....do it his way.

There's not necessarily anything wrong with that, but I think he could've saved himself a lot of mental anguish if he had just followed the advice he was given. It's very possible that he could have killed the affair by playing hardball...and perhaps his WW would have wanted to R after she came out of her fog. It's doubtful that will happen, now. Now he will have to wait to see if things work out between WW and OM. When (if) that relationship fails, WW will come crawling back to HH (option B). He will have to live with the fact that he was plan B.

I guess his trailblazing will eventually reach a destination, wherever that may be.


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## sandc

ThreeStrikes said:


> HH is the type of guy that likes to blaze his own trail. Rather than take advice, he wants to learn things for himself....do it his way.
> 
> There's not necessarily anything wrong with that, but I think he could've saved himself a lot of mental anguish if he had just followed the advice he was given. It's very possible that he could have killed the affair by playing hardball...and perhaps his WW would have wanted to R after she came out of her fog. It's doubtful that will happen, now. Now he will have to wait to see if things work out between WW and OM. When (if) that relationship fails, WW will come crawling back to HH (option B). He will have to live with the fact that he was plan B.
> 
> I guess his trailblazing will eventually reach a destination, wherever that may be.


Reminds me of Carlton that way.


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