# How long of a leash do I give her?



## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Hi there. Title is very tounge in cheek but will attract more traffic 

I usually post on the sex forum but thongs have been so great in that department I have not posted much lately. I am curious how much space/freedom you give your spouse? I am in the camp of trust being one if the most important and intimate aspects of a relationship. My wife and I go out a lot together on dates and try to spend at least a few hours together on weeknights. It is also important that we spend quality time apart with our friends. We take turns each taking a night out about once a week while the other watches the kids. We both stay out pretty late.

For example, last time I was out it was with a few co workers (my married boss and two female single girls that work for me). It was a going away thing for one of the girls and we ended up drinking too much to drive home so we stayed at my bosses house that night. Totally plutonic relationship and just having a good time. My wife was actually pretty understanding 
and just teased me a little about it. 

My wife was out last night with quite a few of her friends for dinner and two of her single friends went out with her to a few bars afterwards. She got home around 3:30. It usually does not bother me and I totally support her going out (actually improves our relationship). Last night I got a little worked up and we had a chat just to make sure we were on the same page as far as boundaries, etc. 

My question to you is how much freedom is too much? I know every couple is different. I also know that we do put ourselves in situations where we get hit on and flirted with and drinks are involved. We both have good heads and know where to draw the line. I guess I just felt a little insecure and jealous last night.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

As long as ther are no red flags and has no history of cheating and boundries are discussed and addressed regularly and this only happens on scheduled nights and isn't a random occurence that happen night,y then I think your in good shape.

Just keep an eye out for the red flags, and my 1st concern would be her being secritive with her cell.


Like you said, both of you are putting your self out on a slipery slope and the enviorment and oppertunity is there. so just keep an eye out b/c blind trust will get you in troule. I've been there!


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

No red flags that I have noticed. We both leave our phones unlocked and have our email on it. 

My sensitivity is just that I know how trusting I am and have heard horror stories of how guys have had the rug pulled from under them without suspecting anything. You ladies seem to be a little more skilled in the subleties of secrecy 

However, she is so into the kids and would never do anything to hurt them either. She also does not have enough time in the day to schedule a long term affair, even though she is a SAHM. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Sound like my wife, just get a list of red flags to look for.

I'm telling you blind trust is a bad thing, if something were to start at least you can have the tools to identify it and catch it in time.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

hubby said:


> She also does not have enough time in the day to schedule a long term affair, even though she is a SAHM.


WRONG.

Even very busy people find the time to have an affair. As the old saying goes 'Where there is a will there is a way'.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Do you have a link to a good list?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

no, go on line search "cheating wife" or "cheating spouse"

I never have checked the quick link at the top of this page....I wonder....


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

hubby said:


> Hi there. Title is very tounge in cheek but will attract more traffic
> 
> I usually post on the sex forum but thongs have been so great in that department I have not posted much lately. I am curious how much space/freedom you give your spouse? I am in the camp of trust being one if the most important and intimate aspects of a relationship. My wife and I go out a lot together on dates and try to spend at least a few hours together on weeknights. It is also important that we spend quality time apart with our friends. We take turns each taking a night out about once a week while the other watches the kids. We both stay out pretty late.
> 
> ...


The bolded is just NFW for me and my wife. My wife staying over someones house under these circumstances would be unacceptable to me. Her staying out like that under those circumstances would be unacceptable as well.

So none of this is within the boundaries my wife and I have set for ourselves. YMMV. Too many stories of how people say that they trusted their spouses completely. That is foolish , lazy and unrealistic in my opinion. Love trumps trust. I trust my wife more than anyone else in the world. She has had great freedoms on trips and so on. BUT she is not a drinker and does not "party". She does not hang out with other men. If she started to, my trust for her choices would diminish significantly and probably end up a deal breaker.

I sincerely hope this works for you though.

What are your boundaries? If they are not well defined you may find they don't really exist. Shooting from the hip while drinking and flirting is a dubious way to go.

Realize I go on business trips and there is some serious drinking going on and there are female colleagues. I am very conscious of my boundaries no matter how much I drink. If I question that for some reason I nurse my drinks.

But to answer your question. How much freedom is too much. I think you are on your way to finding out the hard way. I hope not.

BTW your gut is telling you this is beyond reason. Jealousy is there for a reason. Listen to your gut. Your wife hanging out with single guys drinking until 3:30 is asking for trouble.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

hubby said:


> No red flags that I have noticed. We both leave our phones unlocked and have our email on it.
> 
> My sensitivity is just that I know how trusting I am and have heard horror stories of how guys have had the rug pulled from under them without suspecting anything. You ladies seem to be a little more skilled in the subleties of secrecy
> 
> ...


RED FLAG -- SAHM out partying with single guys until 3:30 am.
SAHM moms are amongst the most vulnerable.

Young children -- Have you not been reading this forum? Having little children does nothing to keep wives from having affairs. To assume the mother of your children would not enter into an affair is foolish indeed. It happens all the time.

Not enough time for an affair -- Sigh. Please someone jump in here. This is classic. Trust us, they find the time. If she is out until 3:30am in the morning that is plenty of time.

I think you arer setup pretty good for failure dude. Again I hope not.

How about my sweet wife would never do anything to hurt us?

Next I am expecting to hear she goes to the GYM and has a male personal trainer Please say it ain't so.

You can trust your wife. Why would you trust other men with your wife?


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

You are allowing your wife to go out to bars week after week, you are allowing her to go in harm's way

She can go out with her GF, a couple times a month ---TO DINNER, AND A MOVIE, to sports events in the daytime, to bookclubs, to hobbies, to racetracks---lots of things to do-

----IT IS INAPPROPRIATE FOR MARRIED WOMEN TO BE IN BARS-----that is a singles element, and your wife DOES NOT BELONG THERE

You are gonna get bitten, and you have no idea of what it will do to your life

You can read about it, all you want---BUT YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF THE PAIN, AND HURT, AND MISERY---possibly for a life time---and you are allowing her to go out and be part of the scene.

If she is to go out at night---NOT TO BARS---there needs to be a time limit, such as midnight---and please do not tell me how you trust her---that trust will disappear forever, if she cheats, and you are allowing her the opportunity

How do you know she didn't cheat when she was out till 3:30-------bars close at 2---last round served at 1:30---where was she for 2 hours

SHE SURE IS NOT GONNA TELL YOU IF SHE WAS WITH ANOTHER MAN----she never WANTS you to find THAT out

You keep going the way you are, and you and your mge., are in for a very big wake-up, that you AIN'T gonna like.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

jnj express said:


> You are allowing your wife to go out to bars week after week, you are allowing her to go in harm's way
> 
> She can go out with her GF, a couple times a month ---TO DINNER, AND A MOVIE, to sports events in the daytime, to bookclubs, to hobbies, to racetracks---lots of things to do-
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Did everyone miss the part where HE went out drinking with his female boss and 2 single female coworkers? He then was too inebriated to get home and ALL of them stayed the night at his boss's house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks for the frank feedback. I do appreciate it. I am probably too trusting indeed. I guess my thoughts are that if a spouse is going to cheat, they will find a way to do it. What is to stop her while I am at work? We both meet plenty of people of the opposite sex each day that we could make a move on.

As far as our boundaries, we can talk to whoever we want but we are not alone with anyone, no phone numbers exchanged, nothing physical...period. 

Just a point of clarification, it was me who stayed at my bosses house while my poor wife was at home with the kids. Just wanted to show the trust has to work both ways. 

I have also let her have her girls night out vacation nights where she and her friends (most married) get a hotel and go out for dinner and dancing. I know I am not making it sound any better but just want to lay out all the facts. I do the same when I am traveling with my work buddies. 

We have also told each other that if either of us felt that we abusing our independence that we should discuss and agree on a compromise. 

Again, I think if she is going to cheat, she will do it one way or another. 

I'll take a loom through some of the common red flags and see if any pop up.

Thanks again for the candid feedback.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrustratedFL (May 18, 2011)

How much freedom is to much??? IMO, to much freedom is when the nights out become more and more frequent and the friends/co-workers become more distanced or unknown to you.

My husband went out often and SOOO many friends and family members told him he had a very long leash. He would always go watch football or sports with his married friends. I trusted him so I never thought it was an issue. Then all of a sudden his friends started to change to people I did not know. That is when his affair was in full force. I would never again put up with ANYONE who always wanted to be out of the house and not include me or be with me.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks frustrated, good points. No change in friends. In fact, the two friends she went out with last night are neighbors that I know well and are teachers. I talk to her friends a lot, mostly in the mooring as I wait at the bus stop with the kids In the morning. I would think that I would see some signs from one of her friends (no eye contact, avoiding me, etc). 

She goes out with her friends maybe twice a month...I do about the same. We also have our date nights three to four times a month. We have two or three in house pseudo date nights a week where we have a few drinks and watch a movie/show, talk, cuddle/kiss, etc. I agree if the balance ever shifted where it was less "us" time than "me" time it would not be good. 

I actually encouraged her to get out more to help her stop being a "mom" or "wife" all the time...go out and be herself more with the girls. She started taking me up on it about two years ago and the pattern or frequency has not changed a lot over time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

pidge70 said:


> Did everyone miss the part where HE went out drinking with his female boss and 2 single female coworkers? He then was too inebriated to get home and ALL of them stayed the night at his boss's house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I caught that. That is dubious behavior on his part IMHO.

That said it comes down to the boundaries that he and his wife agree on.

We can provide our opinon as to how adviseable this of course.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

hubby said:


> Thanks for the frank feedback. I do appreciate it. I am probably too trusting indeed. *I guess my thoughts are that if a spouse is going to cheat, *they will find a way to do it. What is to stop her while I am at work? We both meet plenty of people of the opposite sex each day that we could make a move on.
> 
> As far as our boundaries, we can talk to whoever we want but we are not alone with anyone, no phone numbers exchanged, nothing physical...period.
> 
> ...


It is not about someone going out with the intention of cheating. I call what you guys are doing, playing just the tip. You are involving yourself in risky behavior. Over time this is risking extra-marital relationships. 

I think women in a hotel, drinking, hanging out and dancing with other men is asking for someone to grab your wife away from you. Maybe just borrow her for the night. Give her some strange. Those men are there to bed your wife. Trust your wife but do not trust the men while she is drinking.

Instigation -- By engaging with these men in the seductive singles scene she is putting herself out there. She may or may not intend to go too far. Does she dress hot for this? You bet she does. Some women go sans certain garments when they let their hair down. The men dancing with them appreciate it very much. What hubby does not know won't hurt him.

Isolation -- When she is out of town, at a hotel and surrounded by predators and she is soaking up the attention, the alcohol and the gropes and caresses of other men, you are completely isolated from her. The music helps with the atmosphere. And you know what. No one will ever know. That is the thinking after so many drinks. 

Escalation -- You do understand PUA, right? You know what a Kino escalation is? It works best in clubs, where women are not with thier husband and they are drinking. When the guy puts his hands in a place she would normally not allow, she may start thinking you know this guy is kinda hot. I think I will let him do that. And then he pulls back and then tries the next level. It is a technique to break down the barriers. It works in this atmosphere often enough. Maybe not the first two nights or even the first vacation. But for the thrill to be there the next time, one has to take more and more chances.

I mean if you are happy with this life style go for it. Does it turn you on to think your wife is interacting with other men. I only ask because some husbands like that.

Now if they are in Vegas, the women my opt for a little private in the hotel room stripper action. Just harmless fun. 

Also 98% of men think their wives are in the 32% of women who will not cheat on them if they could get a way with it. Since most wives do not go on vacations like you describe I wonder what the statistical odds are with this in your case. I am not judging your wife's character. All else equal it is very risky. Plus, you asked.

For all I know you may be ok with an open marriage. I don't know.

I have no intention of cheating on my wife. Get me plastered, throw me in a bed with a bunch of naked hotties who are wanting to ravage me and I hope I can fight my way out of that bed. The best way to stay faithful is to not get into that bed to begin with.


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## nada (Aug 20, 2011)

hubby said:


> Thanks for the frank feedback. I do appreciate it. I am probably too trusting indeed. I guess my thoughts are that if a spouse is going to cheat, they will find a way to do it. What is to stop her while I am at work? We both meet plenty of people of the opposite sex each day that we could make a move on.
> 
> As far as our boundaries, we can talk to whoever we want but we are not alone with anyone, no phone numbers exchanged, nothing physical...period.
> 
> ...


I am not sure if I would be too worried if this is a single occurence thing. If she starts to change her interests, dressing, improve fitness etc, then THAT is a clear RED FLAG. Jeaolusy can push women in the wrong direction. You does not seem to have such issues though. I do well understand that you got a bit pissed when she came home that late.

Nada


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

I guess while we suggest men meet their wifes needs, you will need to be extra vigilante that she is getting hers met before she goes on one of these vacations ...

You will love this one.

I would be most worried if she was ovulating during any of these vacations. I'm serious. If women are going to cheat they are inclined to do so when ovulating.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Of course you can't stop her from cheating, that's why there are such high rates of D., due to cheating. Believe me if she cheats, and she knows what she is doing, you may/will never know about it. 

You are allowing her to be with other men, in a situation where there is absolutely no boundaries, nor control

You don't allow your MARRIED WIFE, to go dancing, along with drinking with other men

Picture it, in your own mind---DO YOU HONESTLY THINK SHE IS AT ARMS LENGTH, stiffly dancing with some guy

She may intend to do nothing, but she is already licquored up---she dances close, he bumps, and grinds, she responds----I guarantee you, the juices are flowing, and lust, and passion, are going full out

Please don't delude yourself, that teachers don't cheat, teachers are just as susceptible to cheating as anyone else

You are just allowing your wife to go in harms way----are you gonna allow your daughter to go out drinking, and messing around with guys when she is 12, 13, 14 yrs old????

Also almost every paragraph you write, when you do things alcohol is involved, ---can't you guys conduct any kind of activities sober???????


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## InsecureSecurity (Aug 7, 2011)

jnj express said:


> You are allowing her to be with other men, in a situation where there is absolutely no boundaries, nor control
> 
> You don't allow your MARRIED WIFE, to go dancing, along with drinking with other men


Married men also don't need to be doing the same damn thing and then end up spending the night at someone else's house with several single women. I'd be more worried about the man cheating in this whole situation before the woman. At least she comes home after she's done.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

You both need to stop going out drinking like this snd staying at other peoples' homes because your'e too wasted to get home.

You are both guilty. What's good for the goose...


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback folks. Will take it to heart. I will at least be more diligent in looking for the red flags.

Just a few points of clarification. We hardly ever get drunk (that one night for me was a first and probably a last), it is usually just a few drinks. In fact, my wife is usually the DD. 
Also, one of the boundaries we have set is she does not dance with other guys...just the girls. She has promised me that she does not dance with other guys when she is out with her girlfriends. In fact, she doe not even like to go out dancing when it is just 2-3 girls as guys do not approach her when it is a larger group.

Of course, this is what she says and I have no reason to doubt her...but I do understand I need to have a healthy dose of skepticism.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Jellybeans said:


> You both need to stop going out drinking like this snd staying at other peoples' homes because your'e too wasted to get home.
> 
> You are both guilty. What's good for the goose...


Yeah, that was a bad move on my part. Won't be happening again.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

You can't tell her not to do something while you are doing the very same thing. 

Both of you need to stop it.


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## Rob774 (Sep 27, 2010)

My wife is a SAHM. A few times a year, she goes out with her gal pals to clubs, drinking is involved, but she never get's drunk. I've never had an issue with this... because she's never given me a reason to have an issue. She's bumped into Ex's, danced with guys... no big deal. She volunteers this info to me too, so its not like i stop her at the door, saying, "So Who'd You See Tonight!" 

The weird part is, i've very jealous and insecure.. just not on things like this. And the gal pals she goes out with... i know, they are married as well, they look out for one another. I very seldom go out, but when i do, its with buds or my brothers, and she isn't worried about me either.


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## Craggy456 (Feb 22, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Not enough time for an affair -- Sigh.


Yeah, my H said the same thing in an email he wrote to me after i caught him the second time. Something about "My paychecks reflect the amt of time I've been working, I've been too busy to have an affair"

Then yesterday, I found a half empty box of rubbers in his suitcase. He sure keeps his little pecker busy


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Jellybeans said:


> You can't tell her not to do something while you are doing the very same thing.
> 
> Both of you need to stop it.


I am not going to ask her to stop going out with the girls just as I would not want her to ask me to not go out with the guys. I think it is just something we are OK with each other doing and have that level of trust. Sure she can end up cheating but like I mentioned before, if she wanted to she could, where there is a will there is a way. 

Life is to short to worry about her being deceitful, especially since I have never known her to lie to me, not even once, in the 18 years we have been together. I could also worry about getting hit by a bus, getting struck by lightning or attacked by African killer Bees. That is just how we roll.

But this thread does give me some pause and grounds me in a little realism. Thank you for that.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Rob774 said:


> My wife is a SAHM. A few times a year, she goes out with her gal pals to clubs, drinking is involved, but she never get's drunk. I've never had an issue with this... because she's never given me a reason to have an issue. She's bumped into Ex's, danced with guys... no big deal. She volunteers this info to me too, so its not like i stop her at the door, saying, "So Who'd You See Tonight!"
> 
> The weird part is, i've very jealous and insecure.. just not on things like this. And the gal pals she goes out with... i know, they are married as well, they look out for one another. I very seldom go out, but when i do, its with buds or my brothers, and she isn't worried about me either.


Well at least there is some other couples out there that have not been burned, gives me some hope.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

hubby said:


> I am not going to ask her to stop going out with the girls just as I would not want her to ask me to not go out with the guys.


It's not about telling her to stop going out. It's where she goes that's the probem. I was in a thread once where some married guy was claiming it's controlling to not let your wife w.h.o.r.e around at...sorry, dance with the girls at clubs. He said he wasn't looking for strange when he did (so it's not guaranteed that everyone is, get it?) , but agreed he was in the minority. 

Sorry, but my wife can't hang out at places where a majority of the people , and a near TOTALITY of the men, are there to get laid. Sorry. No. Put some loud music on in the garage and have the girls come over for disco night. They can all wear wigs and polyesther. Then go out to a movie and dinner the next weekend.

You do understand why they call these places meat markets, right?


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

The most faithful spouse can cheat if the conditions are right. Sure, you can't control her, but why put her in situations where temptation is great? Married people should not be flaunting their sexuality in highly charged drunken places.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey hubby---let me just give you a very real possible example

She is out at a bar with her friends, they must all drive seperately, so she is on her own---they have a couple of drinks, she has the normal hit rate from guys---eyeing her, coming over, maybe being rejected---they see her dancing, maybe a couple of guys come to their table, and they all start talking---on this night one of her GF, needs to go home early, so it is now just couples---she does end up flirting, talking dancing with one of the guys---finally her other GF, decides to go home, and your wife is having a good time, kind of being swept away by whole attention, flirting, alcohol, you wife knows she can handle it, and tells her other friend she is fine

Now no one has your wife's back---she is on her own---things get more intense, other guy--gets more alcohol down her----and BANG you have a ONS

It was never planned---it was never thought about --it just happened----all the circumstances were perfect, and she never had a chance----

This happens, and it happens a lot---and the betrayed many times will never know it happens

Depending on the spouse who cheated---the mge will now go thru problems, for the cheater has problems with shame, guilt etc----the cheater is now different, and the betrayed doesn't know what is going on---but knows something is wrong, and now a perfectly good trusting mge, is in trouble

This all happens, cuz a spouse is ALLOWED to go out in HARM'S WAY


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

We have set a boundary on that scenario. She can never be out by herself without one of her GF. They must always share a car. In fact, there are very few times when it is just her and one other GF, it typically at least 3-6 other married GFs.

Point noted though and keep the good feedback coming.

So here are the control points/ground rules:
-Always out with at least another GF
-I can call her as many times as I want and she needs to pick up the phone
-Never get "drunk" basically be able to drive herself
-Don't abuse the frequency - keep it to 2-3 times a month

If needed, I could add a GPS tracking device which could also capture random audio tracks and send them to me from her phone (which she has to keep on her at all times). She and I would talk about it of course and that in and of it self would show my lack of trust. That would be the alternative to "just saying no" and would still allow her to go out and have fun with the girls. Seems a bit childish to me though.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

I think our work is done here everyone. He has one special wife. The answer is that your girl is superwoman. No leash required. Congratulations.

I guess I do have ONE last question: Do you ever go with her? No? Why not?

No. Sorry. 3-6 ladies at a meat market and it NEVER gets inappropriate? With any of them? I doubt it. That's against any realistic odds.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

MrK said:


> It's not about telling her to stop going out. It's where she goes that's the probem.
> 
> Sorry, but my wife can't hang out at places where a majority of the people , and a near TOTALITY of the men, are there to get laid.


I agree. However, he needs to do the same. He shouldn't be out at bars with single women too and passing out at his boss's with other single women there, too.

If she shouldn't do it, neither should he.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Sorry. One LAST question. If these nights are so trusting, why is this posted in the coping with infidelity section? That's more than just an oversight.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Jellybeans said:


> I agree. However, he needs to do the same. He shouldn't be out at bars with single women too and passing out at his boss's with other single women there, too.
> 
> If she shouldn't do it, neither should he.



Agreed. But that seems to be a one time mistake. She is regularly getting a thrill being in a sexually charged atmosphere. It's planned before she steps out the door. There's a difference.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

MrK said:


> I think our work is done here everyone. He has one special wife. The answer is that your girl is superwoman. No leash required. Congratulations.


I don't mean to come on as defensive, just laying it out there and taking in the feedback, which is appreciated and I welcome more.

While my wife is in fact Superwoman  she is not infallible.



MrK said:


> I guess I do have ONE last question: Do you ever go with her? No? Why not?.


We sure do, we go out to bars and go dancing with each other more than we do with "alone". We love dancing :smthumbup:



MrK said:


> No. Sorry. 3-6 ladies at a meat market and it NEVER gets inappropriate? With any of them? I doubt it. That's against any realistic odds.


I know, I get it, I was not born yesterday. She has filled me in on one of her married GFs who have danced with other guys every once and a while. She assures me that she has never dance nor even accepted a drink from another guy just to avoid any miss-communication. She is even referred to as the "married girl" among some of her single girl and guy friends FWIW.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

MrK said:


> Sorry. One LAST question. If these nights are so trusting, why is this posted in the coping with infidelity section? That's more than just an oversight.


Because I knew I would get more replies like this here. I could have posted somewhere else where folks have not had much experience with the red flags. You guys are the skilled professionals for advice like this and I knew you would not hold back on the risks.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

hubby said:


> Because I knew I would get more replies like this here. I could have posted somewhere else where folks have not had much experience with the red flags. *You guys are the skilled professionals *for advice like this and I knew you would not hold back on the risks.


We're flattered but don't deserve THAT much credit. 

:rofl:

I kid.



MrK said:


> Agreed. But that seems to be a one time mistake. She is regularly getting a thrill being in a sexually charged atmosphere. It's planned before she steps out the door. There's a difference.


Ah, well if it's planned and a habitual pattern, he needs to put his foot down now. Bar hopping constantly with her single friends is def going to lead to negative things. He also needs to lead by example.

Time to have a talk and set some boundaries in the marriage, OP.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> The most faithful spouse can cheat if the conditions are right. Sure, you can't control her, but why put her in situations where temptation is great? Married people should not be flaunting their sexuality in highly charged drunken places.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Just remember if she gets tracked you should get tracked.

You guys are on a slipery slope, if the both of you get pissed at each other then I can see either one of you taking up an "offer".

IMO the leash can be long on both of you as long as you both know the signs being betrayed and can acknowledge the fact that all boundries are met.

I would make it a practice to engage each other after your GNO or BNO and talk, watching the body langue and looking for changes.

My point is when ever either one of you are do something bad it will show afterwards. 

Either one of you seem to be the jealous or suspicious type, but having blind trust for one another is unhealthy. It will lead to putting your hand in the cookie jar knowing you won't get caught.

If both have your nights and you both act as if your spouse is always next to you then there should never be a line that is crossed. Pretending that your spouse is next to you will prevent you from acting or saying anything inapropreate. I do this at work, especially with female coworkers, it keeps me out of trouble.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Jellybeans said:


> Ah, well if it's planned and a habitual pattern, he needs to put his foot down now. Bar hopping constantly with her single friends is def going to lead to negative things. He also needs to lead by example.
> 
> Time to have a talk and set some boundaries in the marriage, OP.


OK, so let me clarify a little and lay out how it typically goes:

-She has a girls night out about twice a month. This involves 3-5 married GF and 1-2 single.
-They go out for dinner/drinks each time and then go dancing with them maybe 2 out 3 of those times.

So mostly with a decent number of married friends and dancing maybe 1 or 2 times a month. Not really habitual bar hoping with single friends. That said, this last night was a little out of the ordinary where she was out with her two single friends and they did hit a few bars and she got home late. That combo got me a bit nervous and triggered this thread. I called her a few times that night and she answered promptly and sober each time. Traded several texts throughout the night, about one each half hour. She drove herself home.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

the guy said:


> If both have your nights and you both act as if your spouse is always next to you then there should never be a line that is crossed. Pretending that your spouse is next to you will prevent you from acting or saying anything inapropreate. I do this at work, especially with female coworkers, it keeps me out of trouble.


^That

This is one of our core philosophies. Pretend I am there with you and only do what you would want me to do in your shoes.

I also like the idea of a good talk afterwords.

I also may just have a one-on-one with one of her better friends that she consistently goes out with. FWIW, this good friend has just gone through a divorce recently. This could be a good sign as her friend knows how difficult a divorce is, especially when children are involved. Could also be a bad sign as her friend is probably catching up on lost time now.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

hubby said:


> We have set a boundary on that scenario. She can never be out by herself without one of her GF. They must always share a car. In fact, there are very few times when it is just her and one other GF, it typically at least 3-6 other married GFs.
> 
> Point noted though and keep the good feedback coming.
> 
> ...


It is not childish to respect a marriage and be mature enough to understand the risks involved. It is risk vs. reward. If the partying life style is more important that the risks to the marriage then cool. It is only childish until someone falls into an EA or a PA. Then it is very grownup stuff indeed.

The key questionn here is how do feel about infidelity? Would a ONS be a deal breaker for you? Are you ok with having close opposite sex friends? Is it ok for your wife to accept these contacts as friends on facebook, text with them, call them and so on. Not saying she will do this. I just am looking for your boundaries. You have stated a few already.

If you can forgive a ONS then maybe that is a risk you are willing to take.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

hubby said:


> That combo got me a bit nervous and triggered this thread.


Well, yeah. She got home at almost 4 in the morning totally wasted. 

You NEED to set boundaries STAT. Before this snowballs into an avalanche.

"Wife, I've been t hinking lately about the late nights out we've both had and I am uncomfortable with it. Let's set a plan together where this behavior stops. Let's spend more time together and decide together what is acceptable. When you get home at almost 4 in the morning it make sme feel very uncomfortable and its not behavior conducitve to a healthy marriage. So I want you to stop doing that. I will do the same." 

Tweaks, anyone? He needs to say it in a way that shows he's not down with this behavior and also reflect he will join her in not doing it also.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

MrK said:


> Sorry. One LAST question. If these nights are so trusting, why is this posted in the coping with infidelity section? That's more than just an oversight.


LOL


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

MrK said:


> I think our work is done here everyone. He has one special wife. The answer is that your girl is superwoman. No leash required. Congratulations.
> 
> I guess I do have ONE last question: Do you ever go with her? No? Why not?
> 
> No. Sorry. 3-6 ladies at a meat market and it NEVER gets inappropriate? With any of them? I doubt it. That's against any realistic odds.


He may never know other that a change in his relationship with her. Especially if it happened on one of those vacations.

And not knowing may be ok for some people.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

hubby said:


> I don't mean to come on as defensive, just laying it out there and taking in the feedback, which is appreciated and I welcome more.
> 
> While my wife is in fact Superwoman  she is not infallible.
> 
> ...


Not accepting drinks is a good idea. Single friends can add a whole other dynamic ... but you know this. Trust me the married girl is a trophy for many. A prize to go after.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

hubby said:


> Because I knew I would get more replies like this here. I could have posted somewhere else where folks have not had much experience with the red flags. You guys are the skilled professionals for advice like this and I knew you would not hold back on the risks.


It is good to learn from other peoples mistakes. That takes maturity. However, some folks are hell bent on making thier own mistakes becasue they just know they must be right. 

BTW, I though was immune. I was superman. I met my kryptonite. I understand the dopamine fix and what it does to your boundaries .... Just the tip is not very reliable.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

the guy said:


> Just remember if she gets tracked you should get tracked.
> 
> You guys are on a slipery slope, if the both of you get pissed at each other then I can see either one of you taking up an "offer".
> 
> ...


Having blind trust can mean someone is very lazy. It can also mean that they are not concerned if the person cheats or not. 
Usually it is being naive, but a bit of the above too.

It is abundantly clear that he values his time in the bars and so on. He nows he has to be equitable. So he is not willing to give up his freedom in this area. That may be the biggest key to this.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Ok guys, so what should he tell his wife? He needs to set a hard boundary.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Jellybeans said:


> Well, yeah. She got home at almost 4 in the morning totally wasted.


Technically she was at the door at 3 (just checked my texts) and she was stone cold sober...she drove home and had not had a drink since 1. 

I am still not sold on the idea of cutting off the activity. I think there is a way to tighten up boundaries and increase communication that would still enable us to have fun with a little freedom. 

To this point:
-I have never known her to lie to me, ever
-She said she has never danced with another guy
-She said she has never accepted a drink from another guy
-She has never gotten drunk to the point where she could not drive...in fact drinking usually gives her a headache before she even gets a buzz...she hates beer for goodness sake :scratchhead:


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

hubby said:


> I am still not sold on the idea of cutting off the activity. I think there is a way to tighten up boundaries and increase communication that would still enable us to have fun with a little freedom.


Ok. So what do you propose in your own situation? What do you think would allow for tightening up boundaries, increasing communication that enables you to have fun w/ freedom? 

Answer your own question.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Entropy3000 said:


> Having blind trust can mean someone is very lazy. It can also mean that they are not concerned if the person cheats or not.
> Usually it is being naive, but a bit of the above too.
> 
> It is abundantly clear that he values his time in the bars and so on. He nows he has to be equitable. So he is not willing to give up his freedom in this area. That may be the biggest key to this.


I guess I would be more on the naive side. Not lazy and not that I don't care. I definitely tend to see only the good in people and have not ever really been burned in life so you could see how I would approach things.

FWIW, I actually value her time out with her friends more than my time with my buddies. I really appreciate the way my wife has grown the last three years. She pulled back into being a mommy for so long that she lost who she was when we met. I think she has found the person again and we have found that couple again. She has embraced her womanhood and I love it. Being out with her friends has increased her confidence and I am sure there are guys giving her the eye and offering a dance or a drink which helps her feel better about herself as well. It is a risk, I agree. But I am still in the camp where rewards > risk. I come here to get some feedback from the outside looking in.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Jellybeans said:


> Ok. So what do you propose in your own situation? What do you think would allow for tightening up boundaries, increasing communication that enables you to have fun w/ freedom?
> 
> Answer your own question.


I am indeed trying to figure that out real time. We have a decent balance now...increasing boundaries = decreasing trust. That said, I could add some monitoring apps on her phone (GPS, audio)...she the same for my phone. We could work it out so where there is a third party that could drop in from time to time (maybe one of my friends/brothers/myself) and check out how things are going. Even to the extreme that I go out with her and her GFs  My mother is always on call to babysit.

You can see the rainbow of options from "by honey I will see you when every you get home" to "you are never going out without you chained to my wrist."


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Ok guys, so what should he tell his wife? He needs to set a hard boundary.


He should tell his wife they both need to sit down and clarify their boundaries around this stuff. They need to share their concerns for each other. Then they need to brain storm on what the boundaries need to be. They have some but they need to evolve them. Sometimes we find that one clear boundary can eliminate several complex and vague boundaries. Sometimes not.

They should then agree on the boundaries. The boundaries need to be equitable. This may of may not be identical. Identical is simple but there may be reason to tweak one vs. the other. Practical reasons. The key is that both agree to them and both are comfortable with their ability to stay within them. When there is an impasse it is not ok for one spouse to make up their rules. One just curtails the activity until there is agreement. That provides motivation for compromise.

I suggest that the schedule be important. i.e. I plan to be home by such and such a time. If I think I am going to be late I will call you well before this. i.e. calling five minutes before one is late is inconsiderate. I would suggest at least an hour notice but that is for them to define.

Is 3am really acceptable? Lets not be vague here. It is better to define a reasonable default value and then when a special occasion comes up discuss an exception for a given event.

Not coming home at all I suggest is bad idea period. Are you ok with her doing what you did? I think not. 

I would have gone and picked up my wife and brought her home. Why? I love her. It has nothing to do with trust.

I have more issue with the vacation GNOs than the rest. Vegas?

Let me be clear my wife has made many trips for business and with a GF here and there. There is no indication that they are hanging out in bars with guys. My wife has as you put it a very long leash. She has earned it and there appears to be no risky behavior. I just may be unaware. I have no reasonable reason for concern. However, I do not assume. I communciate about her activity. She checks in with me .... on her own. I have not had to ask for this. It is respectful communication.

This is about you guys. Your arrangement would not work for me. But it does not have to.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Well said Entropy. Agreed on me not coming home that one night...bad call on my part.

The GNOs were just local. I think they have done three in the last three years. One was in our town and the other two in the local city about an hour away. Both were just one night, planned months in advance. They left 12PM ish and got back 12PM ish the next day.

She has also gone on two real vacations to go see her best friend (married) in NY. Those were longer vacations (about 4 nights). During those vacations, they had their own GNO with the two of them in the city but no clubbing or bars.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

hubby said:


> *Technically she was at the door at 3 (just checked my texts) and she was stone cold sober...she drove home and had not had a drink since 1. *
> 
> I am still not sold on the idea of cutting off the activity. I think there is a way to tighten up boundaries and increase communication that would still enable us to have fun with a little freedom.
> 
> ...


So was her time essentially accounted for? The bar closed at 2am and she came home. An hour is reasonable considering the distance and time of night?

Again I read your original post incorrectly. It was you that was out with single women. I thought your wife was out with single men. That makes a difference of course.

How about the vacations?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

hubby said:


> I am indeed trying to figure that out real time. We have a decent balance now...increasing boundaries = decreasing trust. That said, I could add some monitoring apps on her phone (GPS, audio)...she the same for my phone. We could work it out so where there is a third party that could drop in from time to time (maybe one of my friends/brothers/myself) and check out how things are going. Even to the extreme that I go out with her and her GFs  My mother is always on call to babysit.
> 
> You can see the rainbow of options from "by honey I will see you when every you get home" to "you are never going out without you chained to my wrist."


No increasing boundaries in no way means decreasing trust.

It is our role to help the spouse that we love. We care. Boundaries are not for lack of trust. Have you done His Needs Her Needs. If not I suggets you do. As part of this the couple learnes how to set boundaries.

You seem to want the discussion to go to surveillance and I do not see anyone taking that bait.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

hubby said:


> Well said Entropy. Agreed on me not coming home that one night...bad call on my part.
> 
> The GNOs were just local. I think they have done three in the last three years. One was in our town and the other two in the local city about an hour away. Both were just one night, planned months in advance. They left 12PM ish and got back 12PM ish the next day.
> 
> She has also gone on two real vacations to go see her best friend (married) in NY. Those were longer vacations (about 4 nights). During those vacations, they had their own *GNO with the two of them in the city but no clubbing or bars.*


The GNOs being local make a big difference. Even if they stay at a hotel. This leaves open the possibilty you could just drop by to say hi. Not that you would, but you could. Makes a difference.

Ok that trip sounds ... normal. My wife does this.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

I'll have to brainstorm this a little before we have the discussion. 

Sure, surveillance (either full tracking or me actually being) there is an extreeme, but not quite the extreme of saying that we just don't go out with our friends to bars or wherever. I will try to lay out a list of boundaries in my head and throw them out for you all to consider. The is such a wide array of compromise between the extremes and I have no doubt that my DW can conclude on them. Point being to actually have some more hard and fast ones set.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

You might want to consider pulling the leash in on that toxic friend with the divorce, misery love company, this relationship could be dangerous.
If I were to make an adjustment it would be with the amount of time I'd want my wife spending with a divorced women.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

That would be a tough one. That is pretty much her best friend in town. Not ao worried much about the misery, she is over the divorce and moved on. I worry more about her single status. Another approach would be just to get closer with her and have some one on ones.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Kinda like, keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer

LOL


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

the guy said:


> You might want to consider pulling the leash in on that toxic friend with the divorce, misery love company, this relationship could be dangerous.
> If I were to make an adjustment it would be with the amount of time I'd want my wife spending with a divorced women.


Yeowch. Divorced women are evil? I'm divorced and don't do the clubbing/bar hopping thing til 3 in the morning with my single or married friends. Doesn't appeal to me. In fact, there are some marrieds that hit the club/bar a lot more often than divorced/singles.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

hubby said:


> I am sure there are guys giving her the eye and offering a dance or a drink which helps her feel better about herself as well.


You're sure, are you? You haven't discussed it? She's hanging out at meat markets, playgrounds for predators, and you haven't discussed the frequence and quantity of her interactions with strange men? Is she attractive? If so, she's being hit on ALL NIGHT. If she's NOT attractive she's being hit on most of the night. If she's butt ugly she's being hit on a lot (especially as the beer goggles get thicker later in the evening). 

OK, she doesn't dance with men (maybe). She doesn't accept drinks from them (maybe). Does she talk to them? Flirt wth them? Ask her. How often is she hit on and how does she handle it? She's spending half her time dancing and half her time rejecting potential predators? I'm not buying it. I'm really not. 

She likes to dance. So do you. Why wouldn't she go with you? What does she get out of it with her girlfriends that she doesn't with you? I get that she's there with her gal-pals. But there are hundreds of other things she can do to bond with them. 

Look. I've done some informal research on this. On this and other sites I've done some key-word searches to find posts on the subject. Not just threads like this, but posts where the clubbing was just a backdrop to the original point. "We were clubbing and this happened" kind of posts. I was cutting and pasting like crazy. Unfortunately, I lost that document. I wish I had it. It convinced me to near 100% certainty that women in a commited relationship can't go to meat markets and have it be appropriate. If they were looking for appropriate, they would be doing something else.

Play Ronald Reagan: Trust, but verify. Have someone you know she won't recognize go to a club and observe her. Report back. I GUARANTEE it will be an eye opener. I wish, I WISH I did when my wife went through her post-partem clubbing spree a few years ago. 

I'll end it with one of the quotes I read and get off of your back. It was posted by a guy who's friend (not girlfriend) said: "If you guys knew what went on during a typical GNO (to a club/meat market) you would never let your wives out of the house again".

God luck to you. Trust, but verify.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

J- Sorry to offend you, my point was to state the possiblity of some trouble could happen when the two of them go out because the D- friend my have a different out look on marrige.

disclaimer; not all divorced people are toxic or evil


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Yeowch. Divorced women are evil? I'm divorced and don't do the clubbing/bar hopping thing til 3 in the morning with my single or married friends. Doesn't appeal to me. In fact, there are some marrieds that hit the club/bar a lot more often than divorced/singles.


LOL just started to read this thread and I thought to myself "I wonder what JB will think of that statement" and it looks like she already answered it!


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

^ Hehehe. I'm so predictable, yes? LOL


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

MrK said:


> You're sure, are you? You haven't discussed it? She's hanging out at meat markets, playgrounds for predators, and you haven't discussed the frequence and quantity of her interactions with strange men? Is she attractive? If so, she's being hit on ALL NIGHT. If she's NOT attractive she's being hit on most of the night. If she's butt ugly she's being hit on a lot (especially as the beer goggles get thicker later in the evening).


We have discussed it. She has mentioned that guys hit on her. She is very attractive so I understand. I get the same when I am out with the guys, though I am sure not to the same extent. It is all how you handle it. She says she has to be a little cold and blunt and staying in the corner area helps. She even does not like to go dancing when it is just her an one other fried as they guys "infiltrate" easier and it get annoying. That said, I can see how it is fun for a bunch of girls to go out dancing.




MrK said:


> OK, she doesn't dance with men (maybe). She doesn't accept drinks from them (maybe). Does she talk to them? Flirt wth them? Ask her. How often is she hit on and how does she handle it? She's spending half her time dancing and half her time rejecting potential predators? I'm not buying it. I'm really not.


Like I said, she has never lied to me and says she has not danced, accepted drinks for flirted with them. 



MrK said:


> She likes to dance. So do you. Why wouldn't she go with you? What does she get out of it with her girlfriends that she doesn't with you? I get that she's there with her gal-pals. But there are hundreds of other things she can do to bond with them.


We dance together as well, probably more than she does with her friends. I have been out with them too and I can see how much fun they have together...I get it. I also have seen guys come up to her when she is with the girls and she handles it well. Just a "no thank you" and turns around.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

the guy said:


> J- Sorry to offend you, my point was to state the possiblity of some trouble could happen when the two of them go out because the D- friend my have a different out look on marrige.
> 
> disclaimer; not all divorced people are toxic or evil


Nothing in this world is black and white and nothing is a sure thing. Just maybe close.

This woman should be a consideration. That is prudent.

She could make the wife an exciting wingwoman.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Let me tell you about wingwomen, when you have a hot wife all her ughly friends want her to come along. She is the bait that brings in all the guys.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Nothing in this world is black and white and nothing is a sure thing. Just maybe close.
> 
> This woman should be a consideration. That is prudent.


It's not that she shouldn't be a consideration, it's the reason WHY he initially said she should be a consideration. 

But now I see he wrote a little disclaimer


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Hubby. Can I ask you why you even started this thread? We've thrown everything out there that we've got and you anticipated each one and answered calmly and in a very concise, articulate manner. What could you possibly have been looking for? Someone to say: "Keep it on the down low, but there's a secret society of sexually promiscuous men and women that have a secret password to the underbelly of the club scene where sex and drugs are rampant. You don't know it but your wife is a platinum level member".

You know what goes on there. You are honest with each other. You have no problems. What were you looking for? You asked us if we thought you were maybe naive. We said HELL YES and you brushed it off anyhow. What's really on your agenda? What's up?


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

MrK said:


> What's really on your agenda? What's up?


No real agenda per se. Probably a bit of just needing to vent while also looking for some perspective and advice from the outside...particularly those that have been burned. 

I think primarily I need to hone in on what red flags to look for and if I can really trust my wife. She says emphatically and calmly that she has not, will not and has no desire to step out of the marriage. She has never given me a reason to doubt her and I am thrilled that she is able to have a good time with her friends. 

I guess I am just a little scared.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Having been one of those that got burned.....just keep an eye out and don't do anything you don't want your wife to do, like spending the night with female coworkers at your bosses house.

She made it home solber you could have done the same.

It can easiely turn into he did this now I can do that.

You should be scared, the both of you are on a slippery slope and the both of you need to get off of it.

The bar seen is in fact a slippery slope for both of you and there might be a better way to have some......personal time with friends.

I love hanging out in bars and talking shop, it used to be one of my favorite things to do, now my wife is one of my favorite things to do.

Just be careful you have intuition for a reason so I suggest the both of you regroupe before a boundry is crossed.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

hubby said:


> No real agenda per se. Probably a bit of just needing to vent while also looking for some perspective and advice from the outside...particularly those that have been burned.
> 
> I think primarily I need to hone in on what red flags to look for and if I can really trust my wife. She says emphatically and calmly that she has not, will not and has no desire to step out of the marriage. She has never given me a reason to doubt her and I am thrilled that she is able to have a good time with her friends.
> 
> I guess I am just a little scared.


She is most likely telling you the absolute truth here. As many have stated it is not about trying to limit a spouse who is hell bent on cheating. It is about us helping our SOs maintain our trust. We sometimes take risks in the heat of the moment. If we have good boundaries they help us not make a bad choice. Sorry alcohol combined with a predator is risky. Why take the risk?

The other part of this is that even if our wife is *not* cheating but has the appearance of acting single and staying out late it puts undo strain on a marriage. Guys start to go after her on facebook and emails and so on. Her weak moment may only be in friending someone on facebook. It may be she gives out her cell number. After all the guy is sweet. Hubby has been busy lately .... I feel good when I talk to this guy. he is just a friend. I have been there. Not my wife. Me.

I am amazed at the power of attention with women. These guys are all about that.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Holy double standards Batman!!
Some of the responses here are revolting. It is as if his doing the EXACT SAME THING has been totally forgotten.
She's the one who came home and HE is the one who stayed out all night and the response is well what happened to that extra hour between 2:00 am and 3:00 am?! Un-freaking-believable.

Hubby, it sounds like you both love and trust each other. Kuddos and mazel tov! 
Hey, your first post your wrote "thongs have been going well". I'm guessing that wasn't a typo.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Ok, break it up. Nothing to see here.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> Ok, break it up. Nothing to see here.


Don't like being called out I see.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Hubby, it sounds like you both love and trust each other. Kuddos and mazel tov!
> Hey, your first post your wrote "thongs have been going well". I'm guessing that wasn't a typo.


Thanks Brighteyes. 

Yes, Freud took over my keystrokes for a second...and indeed the thongs have been going well:ezpi_wink1:


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Don't like being called out I see.


You did not call me out madam. If you read my posts you saw that I did indeed adress his night out as unacceptable AND how would he feel if she did the same. I am pretty sure if you look you will see I suggested equitable boundaries. 

We can also see that as the trhead went on things in general became much more tame. His original post was a bit more provocative than it turned out.

Now if you are calling me out for something not yet in evidence on this thread then it will have to be deemed admissable.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

hubby said:


> Thanks Brighteyes.
> 
> Yes, Freud took over my keystrokes for a second...and indeed the thongs have been going well:ezpi_wink1:


It was funny and awesome. Fawesome.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

What's a thong? lol


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## howcouldshe (Jul 18, 2011)

I have read this and I am pretty positve person but I think you are setting yourself up here
1- Remeber all of us in here for the most part have been cheated on or cheated or both, we know the signs that we saw or some have used on others, that is why we are telling you as good as it sounds things do happen.

2- I am one that trusted my W 110% percent and she ended up having a PA and had no intentions of telling me until I found out about it. 

3- There is a code with woman just like men that they cover for their friends, if your buddy messed up you would likly cover for him. Woman do the same thing dont kid yourself.

I am not trying to put doubt in your mind but I can tell you that if you think something is up there must be a reason, take the warning signs and fix it before things end the way they did for to many of us on here. I wish you well in how you handle this but I think you both need to tigten up the leash a little.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey Hubby----One last opinion, and I won't bother you again

Something is bothering you----otherwise you wouldn't be here---this is a very hard place to come to---there is great hurt, pain, and anguish here, those who come here, are here due to very unhappy circumstances, and you are here seeking advice---so ---something is twisting your gut

IMHO---its the 2 to 3 hour lapse of time---your wife went to a bar---last call is usually 1:30---she probably doesn't stay to the bitter end tho---so she left some where 2 to 3 hours before getting home---she was with 2 single friends, and she drove herself---what is gnawing at you is what happened during those three hours, cuz I am very sure you do not live 3 hours from the local bars

You state you talk on the phone all nite long---means nothing---do you have any idea how many talk on cell phone while actually having sex with a different person----unless you are face to face, or there are reliable people with her----YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT SHE IS DOING----you only know what she wants you to know

As to good, loyal, wonderful spouses cheating-----you better believe it happens, and it happens a lot more than you even wanna think about----why do you think there are such high rates of adultery, and divorce due to adultery---do you think ALL of those stats JUST include problem mge's, or known cheaters, or bad people

You are playing with fire, and you are just liable to get burned, and you have never experienced anything like what awaits you if she cheats on you


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

jnj express said:


> Hey Hubby----One last opinion, and I won't bother you again
> 
> Something is bothering you----otherwise you wouldn't be here---this is a very hard place to come to---there is great hurt, pain, and anguish here, those who come here, are here due to very unhappy circumstances, and you are here seeking advice---so ---something is twisting your gut
> 
> ...




I wonder what you would say to his wife is she were posting? He stayed overnight with 3 women because he was too drunk to come home. That kinda [email protected] would NOT fly in my house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey pidge----you are right---he has also cheated, and I have no idea how his wife dealt with his sexcapade---

-but it is he who came here, seeking advice---so it is he who gets counseled

In all actuality---they both need to stop all this crap with drinking, bars, GNO, BNO, and get to where they do things with each other----otherwise why did the get married in the 1st place----they could have just stayed single, lived together, and lived in, and enjoyed the singles scene---which they seem to be trying very hard to continue to do

Your either married or you ain't, and if you are---then follow the married script.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

pidge70 said:


> I wonder what you would say to his wife is she were posting? He stayed overnight with 3 women because he was too drunk to come home.


Not to mention that she MAY feel because of that, she now has free pass to do the same in the future with one or more men.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

morituri said:


> Not to mention that she MAY feel because of that, she now has free pass to do the same in the future with one or more men.


Or...she MAY not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

His overnight trumps what she did. I don't think anyone would argue that.

Take note that her escapade happened after his and was not typical for her.



> For example, last time I was out it was with a few co workers (my married boss and two female single girls that work for me). It was a going away thing for one of the girls and we ended up drinking too much to drive home so we stayed at my bosses house that night. Totally plutonic relationship and just having a good time. My wife was actually pretty understanding
> and just teased me a little about it.


Perhaps his gut bothers him because he actually realizes he messed up. Did something else happen with the two single girls? Idunno. But his night looked more like a double date with his boss and the two chicks. If this was his wife, her female boss and two single guys ...... we would be telling him to get checked for STDs.

His wife teased him about this. Then she stays out late. hmmmm. Coincidence ... maybe.

What happened on these two nights may never be determined for sure from each others perspective. These could come up years from now in the middle of some argument. Truth has little to do with it. It is the appearance of inappropriate behavior. That at least gets files away.

If the friends were male she hung out with I would understand the concern on his part more. I am not sure what his worry is / was. I guess just his gut feeling. Something was amiss and he is not really sure what it is but his gut is feeling there may be something to be concerned about.


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## librarydragon (Aug 20, 2011)

Between you and your wife, this behaviour you describe is dangerous to your marriage, nevermind inappropriate. I have other words for it, but I'll behave and refrain.

Bookmark this site. You'll need it in a few years to deal with the inevitable infidelity in your marriage after you and your wife have continued with your respective single, party lifestyles.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> His overnight trumps what she did. I don't think anyone would argue that.


Indeed it does. 

Let's hope it will be the first and last time that he does something as risky and stupid as that.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/20944-wife-now-into-porn.html#post241236

Trying to get some background for this situation. Earlier in the year he pointed out that thier almost sexless marriage has really taken off. Awesome. His wife is awakening to sex. This happens for women sometimes in their 30s.

She got into porn. Her friends are into erotic fiction

Interesting that the wife has become much more sexual. Cool. Even wants a boob job.

Athol comment:



> Women don't usually get a boob job to impress the guy they are with, usually it's to attract attention of other men.
> 
> If you're on here again in six months talking about her having affair, I would be unsurprised.


Trey69 comment:



> "She also mentioned the other day about a guy she tweets with that posted a picture of a "monster c**k" that was dwarfing a pringles can"
> 
> So she is tweeting with some guy, I'm assuming its all about these graphic pics? Don't you think its odd she didn;t like you doing it, but now she is all into it? Why the change? Maybe the boobs she wants are for someone else.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

I think I would be thrilled in your case that my wife was awakening sexually.

That said, I would probably be that much more protective of her. Simply because these are new feelings and frankly she is not used to dealing with them. 

I am assuming she got that boob job. This is normally about getting attention from other men. A lot of women get boob jobs. Not judging here. Just pointing out that she is improving her sex rank.

Am I reading she tweets about porn? With guys and girls? Hopefully people are not posting thier genitals for each other to see. Or their new boob jobs.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

I don't think blind trust is wise, especially after being burned like many of us have been. However, one doesn't want to live always picturing the worse case scenario either.

Back in the early days of our marriage, GNO usually meant going to bars. As I got older, the type of GNO I desired changed. Now it's usually dinner or a movie, perhaps once every 6 months we'll go dancing. Regardless of what we do on GNO, I avoid getting drunk. I have no interest in loosing control of my senses. If we're out past bar time, it's because we're at an all night McD's drive-thru.

My H had an affair 10 years ago and then again last year (wasn't busted the first time). His affairs started at work and had nothing to do with the time he spent with his usual guy friends. I missed the red flag....he was going out frequently with co-workers, none of whom I knew. It was a change from the usual and it's when he went down that slippery slope.

Everyone has different comfort levels. Find what you and your wife are comfortable with as far as nights out with friends. Make sure your wife is being honest about her feelings too. She may have laughed off your night with the boss and two co-workers, but it may have been more upsetting to her than she let on. Perhaps she didn't want to seem controlling or uptight by voicing her hurt or anger.

Be alert for any changes in the norm. I do agree friends will cover for friends, so that's not a catch all. But a change in pattern would be an alert. For instance, choosing to always go out with the same girlfriend, when she used to like a group, would be a red flag. You only need one friend to enable bad behavior.

The trust I had in my H was destroyed when I discovered his infidelity. I'm no longer comfortable with boys weekend or guys night out, but he's not on a leash. My H can do what he wants, but he chooses not to do those things because he knows it would make me anxious and upset. If you're feeling anxious about your wife staying out until 3 am, be honest and tell her it's leaving you feeling jealous and insecure.

Good luck working out what's right for the two of you!


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> I think I would be thrilled in your case that my wife was awakening sexually.
> 
> That said, I would probably be that much more protective of her. Simply because these are new feelings and frankly she is not used to dealing with them.
> 
> ...



Well...that adds a little more background. Innocently hitting the clubs with her gal pals is a little different than hitting the clubs with a new body, a new sexual awakening, and gal pals all into sharing porn with strangers. Not to mention the score she has to settle.

Look. You don't owe anybody anything, and you can portray any confident persona you'd like on an anonymous chat forum. But I'll ask you to do your fellow *****-whipped men a favor. After your life comes crashing down upon finding out about the inappropriate activity that will happen on one of her nights, please come onto this forum and tell everyone about it. The "I trust my wife 100% when she's out w.h.o.r.i.n.g at meat markets" crowd is in for an awakening. But I'd ask you to help the MrK's of the world that are stuck at home with the kids with a hole in their guts because they didn't want to seem to controlling. How I WISH I knew then what I do now. That it's OK, minimum, to question your wife's activity at these places. Better yet to just flat out let her know it is an uncrossable boundry before she goes. 

I'm a Republican, hence not used to blaming other people for my problems, but I blame attitudes of people like you for what I went through a few years ago and am still dealing with every day of my life. After it hits the fan for you, pay it forward to someone else. Share your misery to help others.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks again for the perspective guys. She did get the boob job about six months ago or so. She is not really into porn, she just is more accepting of it now and will dabble with some of those "implied nudity" black and white photos. 

I agree this awakening does not give me the warm and fuzzies and make me feel more comfortable about her staying out late. I am going to have to give this some more thought.

The thing is our relationship has NEVER BEEN BETTER than it is now and it literally gets better each day. We have never been closer or more intimate...it has been progressing on this trend for the last three year. BTW, this is mostly due to the help from you folks here, specifically in the sex in marriage forum. You can see a LOT more of our history there as Entropy has pointed out.

Just to clear the air. My extended night out the other week was purely platonic. Nothing happened except a good time and a few laughs. 

Also, on the night my wife went out, she was out in a bar about 20 mins from home until 2:30. It is a local bar I go to as well and know the bar tenders and they have kept it open for us pass 2 a few times. She got home at 3.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Also from that previous thread that may or may not directly apply here.



> I really don't think she is out looking for guys, although all the things I mention above may seem contradictory to that. I cheated on her once a few months after we started dating and that almost killed us. I have been earning back her trust ever sense. I think I almost have her complete trust now. She also does not have time for an EA or PA with the 3 kids and all the school activities.


The above was not optimal but it was before you were married. You were single. I guess she felt she was in an exclusive relationship at that time. That said you guys did make your vows when you got married.

Do you think this is something in your own mind more than hers? Meaning does she elude to that or do you just feel that you need to regain her trust?

Do you think this is the reason for your concern over her staying out late? It almost has to be in the back of your mind.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

MrK said:


> Well...that adds a little more background. Innocently hitting the clubs with her gal pals is a little different than hitting the clubs with a new body, a new sexual awakening, and gal pals all into sharing porn with strangers. Not to mention the score she has to settle.
> 
> Look. You don't owe anybody anything, and you can portray any confident persona you'd like on an anonymous chat forum. But I'll ask you to do your fellow *****-whipped men a favor. After your life comes crashing down upon finding out about the inappropriate activity that will happen on one of her nights, please come onto this forum and tell everyone about it. The "I trust my wife 100% when she's out w.h.o.r.i.n.g at meat markets" crowd is in for an awakening. But I'd ask you to help the MrK's of the world that are stuck at home with the kids with a hole in their guts because they didn't want to seem to controlling. How I WISH I knew then what I do now. That it's OK, minimum, to question your wife's activity at these places. Better yet to just flat out let her know it is an uncrossable boundry before she goes.
> 
> I'm a Republican, hence not used to blaming other people for my problems, but I blame attitudes of people like you for what I went through a few years ago and am still dealing with every day of my life. After it hits the fan for you, pay it forward to someone else. Share your misery to help others.


I don't think it is possible for anybody else to project more than you just did. Hubby has been here for a long time and seems to have a pretty good marriage. I don't think EITHER of them going out to clubs to 3:00am is such a nifty idea but it works for them and has worked for a long time.
Calling his wife a *****/whoring around is disgusting and unneeded and says a whole lot more about your issues than it does him or hers. I know you are from the camp that everybody cheats and you fail to see that many many do not. Even those who go out without their partners.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Entropy3000 said:


> Do you think this is something in your own mind more than hers? Meaning does she elude to that or do you just feel that you need to regain her trust?
> 
> Do you think this is the reason for your concern over her staying out late? It almost has to be in the back of your mind.


Actually, I hardly ever think about that. She is the one that will bring it up from time to time...maybe a once or twice a year. For what ever reason had told her "small" white lies in the past...although I am much better at that the past few years. Several years ago I just did not care that much and would rather just do things (usually around buying stuff for my car or cleaning up around the house...she is a neat freak and actually has OCD). She has eased up on the nagging and I have become a more assertive partner so this lead to more honesty on my part. That said, I don't think I have 100% of her trust earned back.

The only way this would subconsciously create anxiety over her going out is that I know I cheated on her way back when so I know it can happen. That said, given how VERY sensitive to that event and how much it hurts her and still haunts her somewhat today, it shows her conviction to loyalty. 

I know it is hard for you to walk in my shoes and see her character, but that is the same reason why I come here for a dose of realism...I am too close to the situation. Other than the obvious things I have pointed out (taking better care of herself, more self confident, going out with the girls more), she has shown ZERO evidence of cheating; never caught her in a lie, very affectionate, still desires my emotional support and reassurance and always making plans for time together with me and the kids.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

hubby said:


> Actually, I hardly ever think about that. She is the one that will bring it up from time to time...maybe a once or twice a year. For what ever reason had told her "small" white lies in the past...although I am much better at that the past few years. Several years ago I just did not care that much and would rather just do things (usually around buying stuff for my car or cleaning up around the house...she is a neat freak and actually has OCD). She has eased up on the nagging and I have become a more assertive partner so this lead to more honesty on my part. That said, I don't think I have 100% of her trust earned back.
> 
> The only way this would subconsciously create anxiety over her going out is that I know I cheated on her way back when so I know it can happen. That said, given how VERY sensitive to that event and how much it hurts her and still haunts her somewhat today, it shows her conviction to loyalty.
> 
> I know it is hard for you to walk in my shoes and see her character, but that is the same reason why I come here for a dose of realism...I am too close to the situation. Other than the obvious things I have pointed out (taking better care of herself, more self confident, going out with the girls more), she has shown ZERO evidence of cheating; never caught her in a lie, very affectionate, still desires my emotional support and reassurance and always making plans for time together with me and the kids.


Cool. To be clear I am not saying she cheated or will cheat. Your opening post gave us one view. Since then you have provided additional information that was less provocative than that.

It then came down to why you may have felt a twinge jealous over her being out late. Maybe just a natural thing.

But surely you see that significant changes, even very welcome ones are still changes for you guys this year. Her sexual awakening, her interactions not just with porn but with related tweets and the boob job are good data points against this topic.

I am assuming you have read Athol's book.

When it comes to our wives we are all very close to the trees to see the forest. So it is good to get outside opinions. Most of them are going to be way off base because we can nly gleen so much from posts. But I do think there is that occasional deep insight that we can get from others as well.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

:iagree:

Your intuition is helping you along and its just another tool to use to keep your marriage healthy * in this case*.

You have perspective and we here at TAM can also have a perspective, so take what you have read here and continue to stay informed with knowing the signs/flags that can lead to trouple.
I still believe the both of you stepped over the line so learn from it, prevent it from both of you doing it again and prevent your self from getting all twisted up about it. 

I do not think its coincidence that you stay over night and she comes home late. Both of you need to stay in check before someone goes down that slippery slope and one of you find your selves saying " I didn't mean it to happen, it just did"!

I hope TAM is helping both of you out in finding a healthy way in haveing boundries.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

hubby said:


> Well at least there is some other couples out there that have not been burned, gives me some hope.



Not in my experience. Since 1980, ALL THE COUPLES I know, except one, have divorced that had girls night out. I just found out a couple of months ago that another one bit the dust. She was the last of a group of 5 that went out together, all now divorced. Sooner or later drinking and a smooth talker leads to disaster. Almost no one intends to cheat . The fact is almost 70% of women admit they would cheat if they knew they wouldn't get caught. If you add the ones that would not admit it and add in drinking what do you think the % would be. 


The friends will not help you at all as you will see on these threads they will keep their mouths shut or enable cheating. D


Doesn't have time ? People are regularly caught using a nearby secluded factory parking lot before 6 am in the morning.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

"This could be a good sign as her friend knows how difficult a divorce is, especially when children are involved. Could also be a bad sign as her friend is probably catching up on lost time now."


OMG ........are you kidding?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

chapparal said:


> Not in my experience. Since 1980, ALL THE COUPLES I know, except one, have divorced that had girls night out. I just found out a couple of months ago that another one bit the dust. She was the last of a group of 5 that went out together, all now divorced. Sooner or later drinking and a smooth talker leads to disaster. Almost no one intends to cheat . The fact is almost 70% of women admit they would cheat if they knew they wouldn't get caught. If you add the ones that would not admit it and add in drinking what do you think the % would be.
> 
> 
> The friends will not help you at all as you will see on these threads they will keep their mouths shut or enable cheating. D
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

chapparal said:


> Since 1980, ALL THE COUPLES I know, except one, have divorced that had girls night out. I just found out a couple of months ago that another one bit the dust. She was the last of a group of 5 that went out together, all now divorced.


I wish I still had my list going. That would be a good addition.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks again for all the feedback. I do appreciate the healthy does of skepticism.

I am interested in Chapparal's take on the correlation of divorce rate and GNO...I can certainly see that there are more opportunities for making a mistake under those circumstances.


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## Craggy456 (Feb 22, 2011)

hubby said:


> I am interested in Chapparal's take on the correlation of divorce rate and GNO..


As am I. I've had MANY GNO not once did I ever feel tempted to do something inappropriate. Ya, lots of drinking, bad karaoke, fat girl kind of dancing, b*tch about work la la la.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

hubby said:


> Thanks again for the perspective guys. She did get the boob job about six months ago or so. She is not really into porn, she just is more accepting of it now and will dabble with some of those "implied nudity" black and white photos.
> 
> I agree this awakening does not give me the warm and fuzzies and make me feel more comfortable about her staying out late. I am going to have to give this some more thought.
> 
> ...


So what? Your actions were unfaithful. We only have your word that nothing happened while you were behaving unfaithful. Trust is about trusting the other spouse to not behave in an unfaithful manner. To not put them in this position. To not do questionable things. So this alone puts pressure on a marriage. It the trust me defense. It is a boundary thing.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

hubby said:


> Thanks again for all the feedback. I do appreciate the healthy does of skepticism.
> 
> I am interested in Chapparal's take on the correlation of divorce rate and GNO...I can certainly see that there are more opportunities for making a mistake under those circumstances.


Heard of another one this week. Wife starting going out with girls.(two kids) Soon wanted to separate for awhile. Lost house .
Got apartment with wife. She left filed for divorce gave kids to husband. I guess she didn't have time for them. 

Sad story short, he was killed in a construction accident last week. Really nice kid too. He was 33. We didn't know about marital problems until after the funeral.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

My wife's wingwoman from her little clubbing spree of a few years ago is divorced. The only reason I'm not divorced is that I'm too much of a p.us.s.y. It's easier to live in a loveless, sexless, miserable marriage than go through the hassle.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

MrK,
I lived that life for 13 years, you my friend are not alone.
H-
I still take the stance, the leash depend on how informed you are, you know red flags when you see them and you act occurdingly.

Blind trust is what got many of us here, so please stay involved and stay incontrol of your marriage. What I mean is the leash can have variable lengths. It is up to both of you to have boundries and with that the leash can be comfortably long, but things can happen and mistakes can be made when allowed to long of a leash. And this applies to both of you.

Trust me when I tell you if not controled both of you will find that you are both no longer even on a leashs!

You gave your self too long of a leash and look what happened....now your W has made her leash longer.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

the guy said:


> MrK,
> I lived that life for 13 years, you my friend are not alone.
> H-
> I still take the stance, the leash depend on how informed you are, you know red flags when you see them and you act occurdingly.
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Hey there folks. Not much to report. I did share my concerns, feelings and fears that crept up after that night with my wife. We have put some additional boundaries and are not going to be staying out that late anymore. We had several heart to hearts, both assuring each other of our faithfulness. I am nearly 100% sure she would never cheat on me, I just really freaked out that night. That said, I do like the call out by someone on this thread to "trust but verify". That is what i am doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

hubby said:


> Hey there folks. Not much to report. I did share my concerns, feelings and fears that crept up after that night with my wife. We have put some additional boundaries and are not going to be staying out that late anymore. We had several heart to hearts, both assuring each other of our faithfulness. I am nearly 100% sure she would never cheat on me, I just really freaked out that night. That said, I do like the call out by someone on this thread to "trust but verify". That is what i am doing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good to hear.


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