# If They Cheated Once, Will They Cheat Again?



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

If They Cheated Once, Will They Cheat Again?

New research shows the alarming trend that should probably be on your radar.

By Molly Triffin

New research confirms everything your mom told you about "once a cheater..." Many unfaithful partners tend to be repeat offenders. A yet-to-be-published study by Denver University grad student Kayla Knapp looked at the relationships of 484 unmarried 18-35 year olds and found that people who had cheated on a partner in the past were 3.5 times more likely to be unfaithful in a subsequent relationship. Yikes.

The longitudinal study followed participants over the course of five years, checking in with them every four to six months to ask questions about their love life, including whether they had engaged in sexual relations with someone other than their partner since they'd begun seriously dating. (The study didn't account for consensually non-monogamous couples, like those in open relationships or who'd had a threesome with their partner, and also didn’t capture emotional infidelity or online affairs that didn't involve sexual interaction.)


Not only did 32 percent of people admit to being unfaithful, but—and here’s the kicker—out of those who reported cheating in the initial relationship, a whopping 45 percent went on to cheat again in a subsequent relationship. On the other hand, only 18 percent of people who hadn't cheated in the first relationship were unfaithful later on.

Unfortunately, if you're dating a guy who’s knocked boots out of bounds before, this study can't reveal how to predict whether or not he'll cheat on you, too. "We don’t know why people who have been sexually unfaithful in the past are more likely to cheat in the future. Do they value fidelity less? Is it a learned behavior?" says Knopp. "Without that information, it’s hard to say whether an individual might cheat again." Still, simply knowing that he’s been dishonest in a prior relationship may be a red flag.

*Another interesting finding in Knopp’s research suggests that people who’ve been betrayed in the past are more likely to date a philanderer again down the line—so if you fall into this category, be sure to keep your BS antenna up. Twenty-two percent of those who were in a relationship with someone disloyal reported that their subsequent significant other also cheated, compared to only nine percent of those whose initial partners had remained faithful. *"Perhaps some people are very limited in their partner pool, based on social, economic, or geographic constraints, and don’t have the freedom to select more reliable partners," ventures Knopp. "Or maybe they learn that sexual infidelity is acceptable or expected based on past experiences."

What's more, those who suspected that their partner was cheating without knowing for sure were 10 times more likely to be suspicious in their next relationship. "This indicates that how people are feeling about trust, fidelity, and commitment is even more salient than what their partners are actually doing," says Knopp. "Some people are likely to always think their partner is cheating, regardless of whether or not that’s true." In addition, cheaters are significantly more prone to dating other cheaters.

So how can you buffer your bond against future betrayal? Talk to your partner about it. "If one or both of you has had trouble staying faithful in the past, discuss what happened. Might it happen again? How can you and your partner anticipate those difficulties together, and tackle them as a team?" says Knopp. "Many people expect monogamy to happen easily, but commitment takes effort and communication. Being able to confront the possibility that you or your partner might struggle to maintain fidelity can make you better able to handle those challenges in the future."

The next time the subject of cheating comes up in a neutral context—say, if a friend broke up with an unfaithful boyfriend, you’re watching a show featuring a cheater, or, ahem, you want to fill your partner in on this fascinating article—take advantage and use the moment as a jumping-off point for a discussion on where each of you stands, and how to keep your love superglue-strong.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Maybe.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Well, I learned this from military training, doing things like rappelling off a cliff or the mandatory tower dive into a pool at the Academy (I have slight acrophobia).

The first time you try or do anything is always the most frightening and uncomfortable time. I would hyperventilate and have high anxiety due to my fear of heights.

But eventually, it became routine and the fear almost disappeared.

So based on experience, I would say that the first time someone cheats is probably the most difficult time for them in terms of anxiety and fear.

If they do not have a bad experience (getting caught, abusive/psychotic AP, etc), then the chances of them having the same difficulties in doing it again are probably pretty low.

If it does go bad, another occurrence probably depends on how traumatic the fallout is on whether they would ever cross the boundary again.

But this is for average or normal people.

People with mental disorders or sociopaths probably do not have the same level of inhibition going into the first episode...and seem almost impervious to being deterred by the consequences of their actions (probably because they are being driven even harder by their inner demons and negative consequences just get overwhelmed).

So for people with these condition, I would say its a very high probability.


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

To be honest.... Out of all the cheaters I know of personally, nearly all of them have repeated. I think these numbers are probably accurate, and possibly a little conservative. At least in my crappy town…..


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

it-guy said:


> To be honest.... Out of all the cheaters I know of personally, nearly all of them have repeated. I think these numbers are probably accurate, and possibly a little conservative. At least in my crappy town…..


Cheating is a character flaw and if not treated as such will keep happening IMO.


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## where_are_we (May 24, 2013)

Yes!


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> Well, I learned this from military training, doing things like rappelling off a cliff or the mandatory tower dive into a pool at the Academy (I have slight acrophobia).
> 
> The first time you try or do anything is always the most frightening and uncomfortable time. I would hyperventilate and have high anxiety due to my fear of heights.
> 
> ...


That is why rugsweeping never works or R without consequences. The WS needs to have their "hand burned from touching the flame" and even if they do I think in they are still at a higher risk to cheat again.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

If no consequences are imposed for the first infidelity, there will likely be a second, and third and ......


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I honestly can't say I disagree with the article, especially if we are talking about serial cheaters or people who have had long term affairs. Had you asked me a year or so ago I would have said it was BS. But I do think there is something to it. I think if you are a wayward you should just be honest with yourself and acknowledge what you are so that you don't hurt anyone else in the future. You will always fail at trying to shoehorn yourself into a traditional life. For a serial cheater, you can string together a couple years of monogamy here and there, but you will eventually cheat again. I wouldn't necessarily say that I have a character flaw. But, my sexual preference is definitely non-monogamous. For people like me its best to just be upfront about it in our relationships.


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## gouge_away (Apr 7, 2015)

I have never come close to having any type of affair, be it EA or PA. I strongly feel that ifbi have managed to cope my way through life without fvcking over those I love, then I should never be expected to tolerate it.

I might, be able to stomach a short anonymous EA. PA, no fvcking way, I don't care how bad she wants a R, or to wring me dry. Affairs don't just happen, not to anybody and everybody.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I honestly can't say I disagree with the article, especially if we are talking about serial cheaters or people who have had long term affairs. Had you asked me a year or so ago I would have said it was BS. But I do think there is something to it. I think if you are a wayward you should just be honest with yourself and acknowledge what you are so that you don't hurt anyone else in the future. You will always fail at trying to shoehorn yourself into a traditional life. For a serial cheater, you can string together a couple years of monogamy here and there, but you will eventually cheat again. *I wouldn't necessarily say that I have a character flaw. But, my sexual preference is definitely non-monogamous. For people like me its best to just be upfront about it in our relationships.*


Those are two separate issues. 

Lying and cheating on your spouse for an extended period of time is a character flaw. It shows a depraved indifference for another person's mental and physical well-being. Their life will most certainly wrecked for good. 

Having a preference for non-monogamy and being upfront about it is honest - people can either stay or leave but they know what they are getting. It is a lifestyle you have chosen for better or worse and any partner that comes a long for the ride has approved of it.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> If no consequences are imposed for the first infidelity, there will likely be a second, and third and ......


Oh yeah - the only thing people use doormats for is to wipe their dirty shoes on. and a cheater will keep wiping if you let them.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Want to chime in. I was cheated on by a serial cheater. She cheated in her first marriage, which was known, and said she went to counciling and all these steps to make sure that never happened again. Course to hear her story she was the abused wife who was controlled and belittled and I bought it. 

This possibility of reoccurance was a huge concern to me. Maybe it was my gut instinct trying to tell me not to trust her but I had a lot of trouble letting it go. We had hours of talks about what she did and how my expectation is she would never do that to me. I felt like at the end of those talks I knew the guy she had an affair with as well as she did. I demanded, prior to marriage, that we have pre martial counciling and we did. She swore she would never cheat and I bought it. Young and naive

It is absolutely engrained in their character. Like others here many have been cheated on repeatedly. I personally know of no cheater who only did it once. It's a repeated pattern. I keep my opinions about reconciliation here quiet because when it comes to infidelity I think it's only a matte of time before it repeats.


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## Dude007 (Jun 22, 2015)

Pluto2 said:


> If no consequences are imposed for the first infidelity, there will likely be a second, and third and ......


Agreed, its all about CONSEQUENCES....DUDE


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I have always believed most cheaters repeat. I just didn't think it would happen to me. I ignored the odds when I chose to forgive 30 years ago (and rug swept) because I was positive he never would cheat again. The next time I wasn't, thankfully, nearly as naive. And life is better not having to wonder if it will happen a third time. 

No one chooses R with the idea their spouse will cheat again -- you take a chance -- but you should never feel absolutely positive they won't (as I did) because it's very easy for them to prove you wrong. Forgiving a cheater will always be a huge risk and that's not something it's helpful to forget. Like me, you can get burned (and it hurts more the second time). 

There definitely are people who are successful with R but I think that's not nearly as common as people who R want to believe. I guess the lesson is to continue to be very careful when you R. Never think you're safe and that it can't happen again. Above all -- don't rug sweep. And always have a plan (just in case you need it).


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Openminded said:


> I have always believed most cheaters repeat. I just didn't think it would happen to me. I ignored the odds when I chose to forgive 30 years ago (and rug swept) because I was positive he never would cheat again. The next time I wasn't, thankfully, nearly as naive. And life is better not having to wonder if it will happen a third time.
> 
> No one chooses R with the idea their spouse will cheat again -- you take a chance -- but you should never feel absolutely positive they won't (as I did) because it's very easy for them to prove you wrong. Forgiving a cheater will always be a huge risk and that's not something it's helpful to forget. Like me, you can get burned (and it hurts more the second time).
> 
> There definitely are people who are successful with R but I think that's not nearly as common as people who R want to believe. I guess the lesson is to continue to be very careful when you R. Never think you're safe and that it can't happen again. Above all -- don't rug sweep. And always have a plan (just in case you need it).


I also think many Rs fail in the long term because once the BS gets stronger, and realizes they have other options the prospect of staying with the WS who betrayed you in the most vile way possible doesn't seem that appealing. I also think they let their guard down even subconsciously and are open to other possibilities which is when another person can step in.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

As a person in reconciliation and being the BS, I am jaded. I will do my level best to post without me being jaded. Not everyone who cheats will cheat again. Obviously there are serial cheats and narcissistic cheats. Overall I believe people can change, or they can stay the same. It is only fair to assume that I believe people can change as I am in R, and if I thought she would cheat again I'd be divorcing. 

As for studies, I'm not sure I believe all of these studies. Take for example the study that says most vehicle accidents happen within five miles of your home. This study kills me, where is ninety percent of your driving done? So I'll stick to I believe people can change, but I'll never trust a WS as much as I did before infidelity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

drifting on said:


> ...It is only fair to assume that I believe people can change as I am in R, and if I thought she would cheat again I'd be divorcing.
> 
> ... So I'll stick to I believe people can change, but I'll never trust a WS as much as I did before infidelity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope you're right. 

I also thought that my H wouldn't cheat more than once, especially after the saw how much pain it caused me the first time. Well, he did, in fact cheat again. The second time, 4 years later and I was pregnant. Like a double slap to the face. 

A majority of the people I've known or read about that's cheated on a spouse or SO, ended up cheating again - some took as long as 10 years to cheat again...but they did cheat again. From my experience, the study seems to be pretty accurate - even going easy on the stats. But everyone will believe how they want to believe and learn from what their experience tells them. 

Like I said, I really thought my H wouldn't have done it more than once. They say all of the right things when they need to - and maybe in the moment they believe what they are saying, which I why the BSs buy into it so often. But I believe cheating is a character flaw (like many here do), and those who cheat - will more than likely do it again. It's like they don't realize how hurtful they are being and the kind of pain they are inflicting...or they just don't care.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

> Not only did 32 percent of people admit to being unfaithful, but—and here’s the kicker—out of those who reported cheating in the initial relationship, a whopping 45 percent went on to cheat again in a subsequent relationship


If these stats are correct, you have a roughly 1 in 3 chance of being cheated on with someone who has not cheated before, and a nearly 50-50 chance of being cheated on if you're with someone who has cheated before. That's only about 13% greater using the numbers given. Significant, but not decisive.

So, once a cheater, you have a 50-50 chance of cheating again. That's far from always!


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

staarz21 said:


> I hope you're right.
> 
> I also thought that my H wouldn't cheat more than once, especially after the saw how much pain it caused me the first time. Well, he did, in fact cheat again. The second time, 4 years later and I was pregnant. Like a double slap to the face.
> 
> ...


Was your H's first affair rugswept?


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

staarz21 said:


> I hope you're right.
> 
> I also thought that my H wouldn't cheat more than once, especially after the saw how much pain it caused me the first time. Well, he did, in fact cheat again. The second time, 4 years later and I was pregnant. Like a double slap to the face.
> 
> ...




I can agree with most of this, but I also believe that with the correct therapy and a WILLING WS this character flaw can be repaired. Many people enter therapy broken and unhealthy, but upon exit are repaired and healthy. Only time will tell, but I made significant changes to my own self without therapy before. So if you have a person who is strong enough to change, then you can be successful with change. So I will always believe people change. 

With what I do for a living I'm lied to all day long. Seeing honesty is rare and refreshing, but some people are genuine, and right now I think my wife is. Could I be proven wrong in the future, absolutely, but no relationship comes with a guarantee of infidelity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

drifting on said:


> I can agree with most of this, but I also believe that with the correct therapy and a WILLING WS this character flaw can be repaired. Many people enter therapy broken and unhealthy, but upon exit are repaired and healthy. Only time will tell, but I made significant changes to my own self without therapy before. So if you have a person who is strong enough to change, then you can be successful with change. So I will always believe people change.
> 
> With what I do for a living I'm lied to all day long. Seeing honesty is rare and refreshing, but some people are genuine, and right now I think my wife is. Could I be proven wrong in the future, absolutely, but no relationship comes with a guarantee of infidelity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unfortunately truly remorseful WSs who are willing to do the heavy lifting for the YEARS it will take are few and far between - but do some exist sure - most cheaters either want to leave or rugsweep...


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Unfortunately truly remorseful WSs who are willing to do the heavy lifting for the YEARS it will take are few and far between - but do some exist sure - most cheaters either want to leave or rugsweep...



I agree that WS who are truly remorseful and willing to do the heavy lifting are rare. But at the same time the correct path to reconcile must be chosen and executed. The process is long, difficult and both the BS and WS have to do their respective shares of reconciliation. I will use my case as an example of what I mean here.

The WS has destroyed the BS, has destroyed the marriage, and all that goes along with their infidelity. The WS has to accept the damage they have done, they have to accept putting in heavy lifting, and working on themselves. They need to help the BS in many areas and need to earn trust from the BS. Many WS fail under this pressure alone, and I find no fault in that, some people just don't have this type of strength. The BS needs to be equally strong, they have to find the fine line between issuing consequences and punishing the WS. This can derail a reconciliation very quickly, as well as not fixing yourself. 

The BS has to be willing to fix himself then needs to begin fixing these rise. I find this very difficult to do at times. I didn't wreck the marriage my wife did. That type of thinking needs to be removed. The BS has to correct his errors and shortcomings to the marriage. This is separate completely from the affair. It is also not the cause of the affair. In my case I am shoring up my wrongdoings in the marriage. I have to rebuild my portion of the marriage as the old marriage died. I can't go back to something that's dead, nor would I want to. I am civil with my wife, we communicate and I am not judging, sarcastic, or cruel in how I interact with her. I have to accept the affair if I expect to reconcile. 

Now I've left out many things but these are more if the important things each spouse will do to rebuild their marriage. My wife and I are on the right path and I don't berate her for her affair. I let her know on d-day and the week after how I felt. She hasn't forgotten how I feel. Reconciliation can work, if it's what you both desire and you can do the hard work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

drifting on said:


> I agree that WS who are truly remorseful and willing to do the heavy lifting are rare. But at the same time the correct path to reconcile must be chosen and executed. The process is long, difficult and both the BS and WS have to do their respective shares of reconciliation. I will use my case as an example of what I mean here.
> 
> The WS has destroyed the BS, has destroyed the marriage, and all that goes along with their infidelity. The WS has to accept the damage they have done, they have to accept putting in heavy lifting, and working on themselves. They need to help the BS in many areas and need to earn trust from the BS. Many WS fail under this pressure alone, and I find no fault in that, some people just don't have this type of strength. *The BS needs to be equally strong, they have to find the fine line between issuing consequences and punishing the WS. This can derail a reconciliation very quickly, as well as not fixing yourself. *
> 
> ...


what do you mean the difference between punishment and consequences?


I wish you both good luck on your journey.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Married but Happy said:


> If these stats are correct, you have a roughly 1 in 3 chance of being cheated on with someone who has not cheated before, and a nearly 50-50 chance of being cheated on if you're with someone who has cheated before. That's only about 13% greater using the numbers given. Significant, but not decisive.
> 
> So, once a cheater, you have a 50-50 chance of cheating again. That's far from always!


I agree.

But here's the thing, having been up close and personal with it. And having my ex wife's email in the A-M hack...

People do what people do. Some people are more open to cheating -- that may be they are hornier, it may be that social rules aren't as ingrained, it may be a sense of entitlement, it may be poor mate picking on their behalf driving them to cheat.

It may be any of a million things that make people want to cheat. 

At the end of the day though, being caught cheating doesn't change any of that. It may reinforce some things, it may detract some things, but unless there is some fundamental shift in their frame of reference, unless the underlying mechanisms have fundamentally changed...

That group will have a higher likelihood to cheat again. And that makes sense. Like an alcoholic has a higher likelihood to become an active alcoholic again.

Do speeders stop speeding forever when they get caught speeding? Only those that are willing to stop speeding. Those that aren't going to stop, aren't going to stop because of a fine.

Abusers? Same. Drug addicts? Same. On and on it goes. It's a standard model. People do what people do. With human beings, past behaviour predicts future behaviour. Not 100%, but not 0%, either.


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## Devastated an lost (Oct 29, 2014)

drifting on said:


> As a person in reconciliation and being the BS, I am jaded. I will do my level best to post without me being jaded. Not everyone who cheats will cheat again. Obviously there are serial cheats and narcissistic cheats. Overall I believe people can change, or they can stay the same. It is only fair to assume that I believe people can change as I am in R, and if I thought she would cheat again I'd be divorcing.
> 
> As for studies, I'm not sure I believe all of these studies. Take for example the study that says most vehicle accidents happen within five miles of your home. This study kills me, where is ninety percent of your driving done? So I'll stick to I believe people can change, but I'll never trust a WS as much as I did before infidelity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @drifting on,

I agree with you here. My H was a loyal & faithful husband for 33 years. Yes he did me about as dirty as you can do a person. There was a lot going on at the time. midlife crises, Starting shots for low T, Which caused his emotions to be all over the place, Problems at work, He was depressed. I'm not excusing what he did. All I'm saying is they're are people out there who are just cheaters & there are the ones that feel hopeless & make the wrong choices. It's not necessarily who they are. and like you I will never trust him 100% again for sure, But I don't see him as one to just cheat for the fun of it. It has destroyed us both..


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> I agree.
> 
> But here's the thing, having been up close and personal with it. And having my ex wife's email in the A-M hack...
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree: Nothing is 100% but you want to stack the odds in your favor as much as possible.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Was your H's first affair rugswept?


Yes it was. There weren't any consequences for what happened. That's probably why he seemed okay to go for round 2. I completely blame myself for this.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

staarz21 said:


> Yes it was. There weren't any consequences for what happened. That's probably why he seemed okay to go for round 2.* I completely blame myself for this*.


No it's COMPLETELY his fault for not realizing what a sh!t he was for cheating the first time. But i understand why you regret not imposnig consequences. Cheaters are about one person themselves and their wn pleasure. I call it orgasms and ego boosting thats what they chase. They need to feel the consequences - many don't.


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## Am sammy 3 (Aug 10, 2015)

Wow, so should I assume my hubby had other affairs throughout the years before being caught ?

~sammy


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> what do you mean the difference between punishment and consequences?
> 
> 
> I wish you both good luck on your journey.




Thank you Truthseeker1, I hope make it too. Consequences are issued by me and some are out of my control. Whatever OMW decides to do I have no control over. If OMW decides to exercise consequences to my wife there is not much I can do, I could do the same to OM but it would be a losing battle. Consequences I gave are boundaries with limits, divorce is on the table, everything separated just have to drop the papers off at attorneys office. 

Punishing her would be berating her each and every day for a bad choice. I could easily destroy her now after the intimacy talk but why destroy my boys mother? What I did was within reason, I haven't tried to destroy her, I'm a compassionate man and even though I was destroyed I won't do that to her. That doesn't mean I'm weak or letting her get away with anything, it means I respect human beings and I know I've given consequences, but I haven't punished her but once. In fact our MC pulled me aside after a session and said she wished people thought this through as I have. Breaking my wife for punishment, no, she will punish herself enough, and I couldn't really punish her much more then she has herself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Redone (Feb 10, 2013)

I can attest to the once a cheater always a cheater. My husband cheated on me 2 times around year 10 into our marriage and has had several EA's and inappropriate texting with other women online. I thought he was remorseful after he got caught the first time and I gave him significant consequences but obviously he didn't stop. What I am wondering is his father was too a cheater . Both of them suffer from Depression and history of bi polar with his sister who also cheated on her husband . It's just a family circle of cheaters. I made a huge mistake staying with him and now after 27 yrs I am doing the 180 and getting myself together with making plans to leave.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

The likelihood of cheating again is YES. I have three siblings: my eldest sister was married to a serial cheater and my two brothers are repeat cheaters. I don't have much faith in Reconciliation for cheaters.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Am sammy 3 said:


> Wow, so should I assume my hubby had other affairs throughout the years before being caught ?
> 
> ~sammy


Everyone is different but anything is possible. How has he been since dday?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Roselyn said:


> The likelihood of cheating again is YES. I have three siblings: my eldest sister was married to a serial cheater and my two brothers are repeat cheaters. I don't have much faith in Reconciliation for cheaters.


Without any real consequences or loss cheaters will keep pushing the boundaries to see what they can get away with.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Want to chime in. I was cheated on by a serial cheater. She cheated in her first marriage, which was known, and said she went to counciling and all these steps to make sure that never happened again. Course to hear her story she was the abused wife who was controlled and belittled and I bought it.
> 
> This possibility of reoccurance was a huge concern to me. Maybe it was my gut instinct trying to tell me not to trust her but I had a lot of trouble letting it go. We had hours of talks about what she did and how my expectation is she would never do that to me. I felt like at the end of those talks I knew the guy she had an affair with as well as she did. I demanded, prior to marriage, that we have pre martial counciling and we did. She swore she would never cheat and I bought it. Young and naive
> 
> *It is absolutely engrained in their character. Like others here many have been cheated on repeatedly. I personally know of no cheater who only did it once. It's a repeated pattern.* I keep my opinions about reconciliation here quiet because when it comes to infidelity I think it's only a matte of time before it repeats.



Sounds like you married a damaged woman who made no attempt to fix her HUGE character flaws. Serial cheaters or those in LTAs should scare any perspective partner far away. That is not a foundation you want to build a marriage on. Tell me is your XW cheating on her next victim?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Sounds like you married a damaged woman who made no attempt to fix her HUGE character flaws. Serial cheaters or those in LTAs should scare any perspective partner far away. That is not a foundation you want to build a marriage on. Tell me is your XW cheating on her next victim?


Honestly have no idea. I know that the POsOM she left me for dumped her before our divorce was final...she tried to come back to me but I told her to kiss my ass. I think she has dated in the last 4 years since our divorce but ,like a lot of women in our age range, think she is learning that guys are interested in relationships on their terms not defined by conventions nonsense anymore. My guess is she has gotten burned a couple times. Maybe she picked up a disease so she can't date anymore...dunno

Maybe some part of me hope she realizes what she has done, and that this is of her own doing, so she purposely doesn't date to make raising our two daughters a priority. Unfortunately she isn't a great mother either but would be nice to see her put forth the effort and make them first.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Honestly have no idea. I know that the POsOM she left me for dumped her before our divorce was final...she tried to come back to me but I told her to kiss my ass. I think she has dated in the last 4 years since our divorce but ,like a lot of women in our age range, think she is learning that guys are interested in relationships on their terms not defined by conventions nonsense anymore. My guess is she has gotten burned a couple times. Maybe she picked up a disease so she can't date anymore...dunno
> 
> Maybe some part of me hope she realizes what she has done, and that this is of her own doing, so she purposely doesn't date to make raising our two daughters a priority. *Unfortunately she isn't a great mother either but would be nice to see her put forth the effort and make them first.*


A cheater and a lousy mother - so she only cares about one person herself...I feel bad for your two daughters and that she has not damaged them like she is damaged.

Have you moved on?


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

I am in disagreement that once a cheater always a cheater. People can change, people can better themselves, and not everyone continues to make bad choices. To say once a cheater always a cheater is stereotyping at its finest. While its obvious whomever cheats has something broken within them, if they get the proper help they can change. Those who don't are called serial cheaters, and yes there are plenty of those on this thread alone. 

But what about others on this website? For the sake of not naming names three come to mind at an instant who cheated but haven't cheated again. So you all sit here and stereotype them to this ridiculous statement once a cheater always a cheater? I honestly thought TAM was better then this, that most members here know people can change. People can better themselves, and that people can make good choices after making a terribly wrong choice. 

We are all human, we are all fallible in our own ways, but even someone who makes a bad choice can make good choices after getting help. From the posts above reconciliation shouldn't even be a choice, because the cheater will do it again. I don't believe that every marriage will suffer from infidelity, even though mine has. That would be a stupid stereotype without any merit. Humans make bad choices, humans commit atrocities on other humans that boggle the mind.

I have seen such atrocities that people can't even fathom. People changed to commit these acts, and people change to cheat. Some people who cross the line can't come back and some can. But saying once a cheater always a cheater is stereotyping, and stereotyping helps nobody.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

drifting on said:


> I am in disagreement that once a cheater always a cheater. People can change, people can better themselves, and not everyone continues to make bad choices. To say once a cheater always a cheater is stereotyping at its finest. While its obvious whomever cheats has something broken within them, if they get the proper help they can change. Those who don't are called serial cheaters, and yes there are plenty of those on this thread alone.
> 
> But what about others on this website? For the sake of not naming names three come to mind at an instant who cheated but haven't cheated again. So you all sit here and stereotype them to this ridiculous statement once a cheater always a cheater? I honestly thought TAM was better then this, that most members here know people can change. People can better themselves, and that people can make good choices after making a terribly wrong choice.
> 
> ...


I think what the article said and what many people feel is that the *likelihood* of people who have cheated to do it again is higher - not 100% certain but higher - especially if there are no real consequences. In my experience with infidelity, and I have seen a lot of it, many of the cheaters did so more than once - some didn't but many did. And of those that didn't a few were involved in LTAs...not just a ONS.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Posted by Redone

I can attest to the once a cheater always a cheater. My husband cheated on me 2 times around year 10 into our marriage and has had several EA's and inappropriate texting with other women online.

Posted by Roselyn

The likelihood of cheating again is YES. I have three siblings: my eldest sister was married to a serial cheater and my two brothers are repeat cheaters. I don't have much faith in Reconciliation for cheaters.


Truthseeker1

I was basically writing to these to posts, even though Roselyn used the word likelihood. I say this as she goes on to say her brothers cheated multiple times so she is agreeing to once a cheater always a cheater. At least that was my perspective.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

drifting on said:


> Posted by Redone
> 
> I can attest to the once a cheater always a cheater. My husband cheated on me 2 times around year 10 into our marriage and has had several EA's and inappropriate texting with other women online.
> 
> ...


I understand your issue with that but many people who do know cheaters or have been cheated on - have seen cheaters do it more than once. Another quibble i have is if a person has a LTA they have not cheated "once" - cheating once is a ONS - having a LTA is cheating on your spouse multiples times. That is how I view it.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

This subject always stirs up a ton of debate and we don't have many waywards posting here. The waywards that have posted here have been "reformed" so they would say no they wouldn't cheat again.

I got cheated on and I wasn't about to find out if he would do it again. Fool me once...


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## Am sammy 3 (Aug 10, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Everyone is different but anything is possible. How has he been since dday?


hmmmm...still up & down. There had been a few things like 2 or 3 in the past that I think recall, may have been a signs, but there was so much trust the thoughts were laughed off and shared. Now I look back and wonder. I also look back and wonder if my whole blissful marriage of almost 30 years was even real. Its been a struggle still 4 yrs out. 

And this weekend has been a real change. Hubby and I have been in contact 24/7 for the past 4 yr since all of this mess started. Throughout that time, he has always wanted us to get back. This past weekend he told me, "I realize you will never be there for me again, I give you my permission to go, as you have been telling me for 4 yrs I needed to let you go."

It is going on day 3 with no contact at all. 4 yrs later, we are where we should have been so long ago. We walked away this week end with nothing agreed on other than him saying, "he isnt coming back again." Everything just is status quo how I have been living, but I feel so much in the dark. I feel very scare right now and very uncertain and have no idea what I am going to go thur now, but I know Im in for another round of being on my own.


Sorry dont mean to hi-jac the subject. 

But this is what I wonder when I think about will he cheat again because he cheated once. How do we ever know its the first time that they cheated? I think the holy hell that a ww goes thur the first time if caught they learn how to cover the tracks, so if caught could look like the first time, because the idea, hes cheated, so pretty likely he cheated before. 

His father and grandfather were cheaters, mother in law told me to turn the other cheeck,sister in law, Att of law (( marriage)) told me to look at it as sex before marraige, but yet she & her hubby both had been cheated on. Works in an industry where as he says, "Everyone is D, this industry is so hard on families. Everyone got their sh**, I just dont realize it." 

~sammy


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

drifting on said:


> I am in disagreement that once a cheater always a cheater. People can change, people can better themselves, and not everyone continues to make bad choices. To say once a cheater always a cheater is stereotyping at its finest. While its obvious whomever cheats has something broken within them, if they get the proper help they can change. Those who don't are called serial cheaters, and yes there are plenty of those on this thread alone.
> 
> But what about others on this website? For the sake of not naming names three come to mind at an instant who cheated but haven't cheated again. So you all sit here and stereotype them to this ridiculous statement once a cheater always a cheater? I honestly thought TAM was better then this, that most members here know people can change. People can better themselves, and that people can make good choices after making a terribly wrong choice.
> 
> ...


I disagree. Stereotyping is often based in reality it just skewed. It's like me saying all women do this or that. Clearly use of the word all isn't correct because always we have exceptions. Certainly some who have cheated go on to never cheat again .....however OFTEN it is the case that it's a repeat behavior. Not long ago their was a poll here asking how many d days people went through. Right down the line people who reconciled were cheated on again. Those who weren't cheated on twice it was because they left the first time. I was in that group. 

Here is maybe the unique thing about cheaters. They commit several instances of bad and selfish behavior. They lie, cheat, manipulate, rug sweep. They do all these things to a person Whom they swore to love, honor, cherish and forsake all others for. It honestly takes a special kinda selfish to make all those things happen and be ok with it. So to turn Around and think they can somehow rehabilitate this is extremely unlikely. To do that they would have to honestly admit they are wrong...selfish people lack this ability. 

So I feel that the stereotype of once a cheater always a cheater is actually spot on. I also like the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. Both I have seen in my own life to be proven correct. As I have dated since my divorce it is the one hard and fast rule I have, I don't date cheaters and I make that known upfront. Several times I have heard the ramblings of justifications from my dates on why they cheated but never the admittance I was wrong....not once... I just smile and say have a great life.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> A cheater and a lousy mother - so she only cares about one person herself...I feel bad for your two daughters and that she has not damaged them like she is damaged.
> 
> Have you moved on?


I feel bad for them too. It is the one area I have tremendous guilt about unfortunately. And yes I have moved on. Enjoying the single and dating life


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> I feel bad for them too. It is the one area I have tremendous guilt about unfortunately. And yes I have moved on. Enjoying the single and dating life


Do you spend much time with them? does she have primary custody?


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> No it's COMPLETELY his fault for not realizing what a sh!t he was for cheating the first time. But i understand why you regret not imposnig consequences. Cheaters are about one person themselves and their wn pleasure. I call it orgasms and ego boosting thats what they chase. They need to feel the consequences - many don't.


Yeah, I wanted to be the understanding wife. The wife that listened to her H's concerns in the relationship. All I did was impose boundaries, which he didn't even follow. I tired to "talk" with him through it. Obviously, he told me what I wanted to hear and pacified me for a while. 

Then, 4 years later, I get pregnant and a couple of months after we find out, he leaves for a deployment leaving me pregnant with a 2 year old...alone (Not his fault, of course we know his deployment schedule is every year - I have learned to deal with it). No family and we had just moved to the area so I knew no one. My H finds his girlfriend 12 days after leaving, claiming at first, that he just missed me and our son and wanted to see me pregnant - that's why he cheated...because that makes perfect sense!!! NOT!! He changed his story later to blame it on porn - so who knows? I call it selfish. 

I haven't been as understanding this time around as I was the first time. The understanding wife who wanted to talk to her H and hear his concerns left the damn building. It's been my way or the highway for a little while now (at least the last 12 months he's done way better!) and so far he hasn't screwed up. But that has lead us to the parent/child dynamic. He comes to me when he feels urges to watch porn (he has an issue controlling himself and will watch it for hours a day like a damn 16 year old if he's left unchecked).

The unfortunate part of this though is that we are talking about divorce. We are still deciding. I mostly want out. He wants us to stay together. Every time I talk about wanting to just call it quits, he cries and tells me how very sorry he is for screwing up and that he's grown up so much in the last year. I just don't know if he's waited too long to do that growing up, you know? 

I rambled, sorry!!


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Do you spend much time with them? does she have primary custody?


No it's 50-50. If you broke down the hours I have them more than my x. I tried for full custody and lost in court. Then realizing that the family courts only deem provable physical abuse as a reason to strip a parent of their custody...emotional abuse has no bearing.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> I disagree. Stereotyping is often based in reality it just skewed. It's like me saying all women do this or that. Clearly use of the word all isn't correct because always we have exceptions. Certainly some who have cheated go on to never cheat again .....however OFTEN it is the case that it's a repeat behavior. Not long ago their was a poll here asking how many d days people went through. Right down the line people who reconciled were cheated on again. Those who weren't cheated on twice it was because they left the first time. I was in that group.
> 
> Here is maybe the unique thing about cheaters. They commit several instances of bad and selfish behavior. They lie, cheat, manipulate, rug sweep. They do all these things to a person Whom they swore to love, honor, cherish and forsake all others for. It honestly takes a special kinda selfish to make all those things happen and be ok with it. So to turn Around and think they can somehow rehabilitate this is extremely unlikely. To do that they would have to honestly admit they are wrong...selfish people lack this ability.
> 
> So I feel that the stereotype of once a cheater always a cheater is actually spot on. I also like the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. Both I have seen in my own life to be proven correct. As I have dated since my divorce it is the one hard and fast rule I have, I don't date cheaters and I make that known upfront. Several times I have heard the ramblings of justifications from my dates on why they cheated but never the admittance I was wrong....not once... I just smile and say have a great life.




We will have to agree to disagree. Stereotyping is a generalization, that is a help to nobody. Look at what stereotyping has done to human races. How long has the African-American race been fighting stereotyping, among other things. So we are best to agree to disagree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> The waywards that have posted here have been "reformed" so they would say no they wouldn't cheat again.


True, but the interesting thing is we've had a couple of reformed get busted in EAs and such right here on TAM. We've also has some betrayed get involved as well. So, I will never say 100%, but I agree with stacking the odds in your favor.

It's why my wife knows if there is an inkling and I get even CIRCUMSTANTIAL proof I am out.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

It's been said on here that given the right set of circumstances, everyone is capable of cheating... But people with healthy boundaries and who genuinely respect in others that which they want to be respected for will rarely find themselves in such circumstances. The character flaw isn't that it's rewarding to take risk, nor that it's not unpleasant for them to be caught, the character flaw is not valuing for themself that which they value in others... Low empathy and lack of ability to reflect.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> True, but the interesting thing is we've had a couple of reformed get busted in EAs and such right here on TAM. We've also has some betrayed get involved as well. So, I will never say 100%, but I agree with stacking the odds in your favor.
> 
> *Exactly, it is really depressing that those being held up as these beacons of hope for reconcilliation aren't always what they seem. *
> 
> It's why my wife knows if there is an inkling and I get even CIRCUMSTANTIAL proof I am out.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

I don't think there is a thing you posted that I disagree with.. :grin2:


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## nursejackie (May 22, 2015)

Cheated and have not cheated again, 

At the very beginning- after the end of the A it was a temptation, there were times when I thought about making "innocent " contact - like just an e-mail to see how things were going. 

I never did because I realized that it wasn't innocent - and that it would be another assault on BS whether he knew it or not. (A was never officially disclosed and whatever was rugswept)

I would never cheat again as I now know it is a possibility - like a defective character flaw- and I would recognize the danger signs beforehand and take action to prevent even an inkling of possibility. 

There may be something to the idea of a "cheater gene" as I think it does seem to be handed down to the next generation. Both my parents were cheaters.They cheated early in their marriage and all throughout it. At 89 my mom was having an EA/PA (if you count the massage) with the masseur at the cuban resort they went to for a month every year. (he was 30 years younger and managed to milk 10's of thousands of dollars from her before she died. While she was dieing she asked me if i thought she would still go to heaven if she loved 2 men? My dad at 87 with a broken hip had a woman recognize him in ER- come over and was rubbing her hand up and down his bare leg. (turns out they had been meeting each other for the last 20 years at mcdonalds)

Anyways…….


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

drifting on said:


> We will have to agree to disagree. Stereotyping is a generalization, that is a help to nobody. Look at what stereotyping has done to human races. How long has the African-American race been fighting stereotyping, among other things. So we are best to agree to disagree.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Driftingon your comparison does not hold. African Americans are negatively stereotyped for NOTHING - they did absolutely NOTHING wrong but were forced to bear the brunt of brutal nasty stereotypes - cheaters have cheated - people are skeptical because of something cheaters have actually done in other words they are GUILTY.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

staarz21 said:


> Yeah, I wanted to be the understanding wife. The wife that listened to her H's concerns in the relationship. All I did was impose boundaries, which he didn't even follow. I tired to "talk" with him through it. Obviously, he told me what I wanted to hear and pacified me for a while.
> 
> Then, 4 years later, I get pregnant and a couple of months after we find out, he leaves for a deployment leaving me pregnant with a 2 year old...alone (Not his fault, of course we know his deployment schedule is every year - I have learned to deal with it). No family and we had just moved to the area so I knew no one. My H finds his girlfriend 12 days after leaving, claiming at first, that he just missed me and our son and wanted to see me pregnant - that's why he cheated...because that makes perfect sense!!! NOT!! He changed his story later to blame it on porn - so who knows? I call it selfish.
> 
> ...


No apology necessary - that is what TAM is for - we are hear to listen to each other since people here actually understand and know what you are going through. This is your H's second trip to the rodeo so he is now a serial cheater - you need to really think about what his character truly is. forget his tears and I'm sorrys he had TWO affairs on you now - if he was really sorry he would have stopped after one. I'd get some IC and decide if this man is worth spending the rest of your life with. Only you can decide that but remember when you decide to R or D do it from a place of strength not fear.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

I am a former wayward wife. I have not cheated a second time. It's been 5.5 years. I was even RA on and in being in that kind of pain the thought of having another affair made me ill. It still does.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> I am a former wayward wife. I have not cheated a second time. It's been 5.5 years. I was even RA on and in being in that kind of pain the thought of having another affair made me ill. It still does.



You and your H are both former waywards. He had two RA's didn't he? Did he justify both of them as RA's?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> I am a former wayward wife. I have not cheated a second time. It's been 5.5 years. I was even RA on and in being in that kind of pain the thought of having another affair made me ill. It still does.


If your husband had an RA on you - wouldn't that then make you even but if you had another affair doesn't it just keep the cycle going?

I'm glad you have remained faithful but if you read the article it said cheaters are more likely to repeat - its not 100% but it happens often.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

yeah, he had two.. he doesn't call them RA but if you had to write a paragraph about our experience it would look that way. certainly his anger over what I did led to his justification.. he admitted that.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> yeah, he had two.. he doesn't call them RA but if you had to write a paragraph about our experience it would look that way. certainly his anger over what I did led to his justification.. he admitted that.


You can understand that motivation can't you? I do have a question - as a WS you had empathy im assuming for your BH but after he cheated didn't it make it a lot clearer about what you did to him? A wS cant know what they have done unless they feel it themselves. Isn't it different than empathy for what you did?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

I understand and have empathy for one. Not two.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> I understand and have empathy for one. Not two.



Did his affair make you more fully realize why you did by having an affair first?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> I understand and have empathy for one. Not two.


See and I find this very interesting. Thanks for your candor.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> yeah, he had two.. he doesn't call them RA but if you had to write a paragraph about our experience it would look that way. certainly his anger over what I did led to his justification.. he admitted that.



Did he tell you after the first RA or was it left for you to discover? And did you separate at any time?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

kristin2349 said:


> You and your H are both former waywards. He had two RA's didn't he? Did he justify both of them as RA's?





Truthseeker1 said:


> Did his affair make you more fully realize why you did by having an affair first?


no, it made it worse. I knew I could have stopped it and I didn't. I knew I was being selfish and cruel and I didn't stop it in time. Affairs don't have to happen. Some people think they're temporary insanity or mid life crises. They're not. If you're not thinking straight how do you know to keep it a secret from everyone and go to measures to continue it?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

kristin2349 said:


> Did he tell you after the first RA or was it left for you to discover? And did you separate at any time?


I caught him in both. We never separated.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Driftingon your comparison does not hold. African Americans are negatively stereotyped for NOTHING - they did absolutely NOTHING wrong but were forced to bear the brunt of brutal nasty stereotypes - cheaters have cheated - people are skeptical because of something cheaters have actually done in other words they are GUILTY.




No, not wrong at all, it doesn't matter if stereotyping is forced or not, what I said is stereotyping helps nobody. It is unfair to place that stereotyped label on a cheater who has not cheated again. That's the problem with stereotyping, it includes everyone. Look at the reformed cheaters here, and against better judgement I'll mention one, Tears. Cheated once, never has again, now tell me once a cheater always a cheater. Stereotyping is wrong and incorrect to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> I understand and have empathy for one. Not two.




Good for you stephscarlett, you gave your husband the same he gave you. The second affair you should not offer reconciliation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> no, it made it worse. I knew I could have stopped it and I didn't. I knew I was being selfish and cruel and I didn't stop it in time. Affairs don't have to happen. *Some people think they're temporary insanity or mid life crises. They're not. If you're not thinking straight how do you know to keep it a secret from everyone and go to measures to continue *it?


I agree with that 100%


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

drifting on said:


> No, not wrong at all, it doesn't matter if stereotyping is forced or not, what I said is stereotyping helps nobody. It is unfair to place that stereotyped label on a cheater who has not cheated again. That's the problem with stereotyping, it includes everyone. Look at the reformed cheaters here, and against better judgement I'll mention one, Tears. Cheated once, never has again, now tell me once a cheater always a cheater. Stereotyping is wrong and incorrect to do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah it absolutely does matter if the stereotyping is applied to the guilty or innocent. Of course it does. Sorry comparing the plight of African Americans to cheaters does not hold - If cheaters are met with skepticism they EARNED that label by cheating - African Americans did NOTHING NADA ZERO to earn their plight.

even the use of word stereotyping when applying it to cheaters is wrong. The right word is skepticism and that skepticism has been earned everytime they decided to shag someone who is not their spouse.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Yeah it absolutely does matter if the stereotyping is applied to the guilty or innocent. Of course it does. Sorry comparing the plight of African Americans to cheaters does not hold - If cheaters are met with skepticism they EARNED that label by cheating - African Americans did NOTHING NADA ZERO to earn their plight.
> 
> even the use of word stereotyping when applying it to cheaters is wrong. The right word is skepticism and that skepticism has been earned everytime they decided to shag someone who is not their spouse.




Stereotype

: to believe unfairly that all people or things with a particular characteristic are the same


Whether earned or not stereotyping helps nobody. It's too broad of a generalization to label a group. Skepticism? Yes. What I said is stereotyping helps nobody. Once a cheater always a cheater is not skepticism, it's stereotyping a group of people. Period. You want to argue then show me how Tears fits into once a cheater always a cheater. She doesn't, cheated once. If you wish to bring in more words to call it fine, but what I have said is correct. Stereotyping helps nobody.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Truthseeker1

I hate that saying once a cheater always a cheater. I hate stereotyping, and that's what this statement says every damn time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

drifting on said:


> Stereotype
> 
> : to believe unfairly that all people or things with a particular characteristic are the same
> 
> ...



Driftingon. I will NEVER concede that skepticism of cheaters is the same thing as the stereotyping of African Americans so lets just agree to disagree there. Cheaters aren't denied jobs, promotions, housing, harassed by cops and killed for being a cheater so please stop it right there. 

The fact that cheaters are more likely to cheat again and are met with skepticism is EARNED. Do all cheaters get painted with a broad brush sure - but its an earned label they acquired by cheating. Another byproduct of their vile sin. I have no sympathy for someone who lies and betrays and then is denied the benefit of the doubt the next time.

Tears is the exception you are right - but pointing to one exception doesn't change the studies findings.


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## truster (Jul 23, 2015)

I think you guys are talking about two different things.

It sounds like you both would agree that a cheater is *more likely* to cheat again, which seems to be both of your actual position on the subject. The idea that cheaters will always (or never) cheat again, is not really what either person is saying.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

truster said:


> I think you guys are talking about two different things.
> 
> It sounds like you both would agree that a cheater is *more likely* to cheat again, which seems to be both of your actual position on the subject. The idea that cheaters will always (or never) cheat again, is not really what either person is saying.


But i have no sympathy for someone who has earned the skepticism of others due to their previous behaviors and to compare it to the stereotyping of African Americans is [email protected]#$%^& outrageous.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

African-Americans are stereotyped for many things;
Criminals
That they don't hold jobs
That they collect welfare
That they are lazy

I could go on for days. We will have to agree to disagree. Some of my best friends are African-American, skin color doesn't matter. It doesn't for you either, and I'm not asking for your sympathy towards cheaters. Feel as you feel about them, but I argued that once a cheater always a cheater is wrong, it's a stereotype. Agree to disagree is fine, but as soon as you show someone who cheated once it becomes different. 

Truthseeker1, you may hate my comparison and that's fine. I said stereotyping helps nobody, and that's true. The statement once a cheater always a cheater is not defined as skepticism.

Skepticism-
1 :an attitude of doubt or a disposition to incredulity either in general or toward a particular object

It's toward an object not people, so actually skepticism is not applicable, but stereotyping is, and it's wrong. 

I won't argue this as I have respect for you, but this is nothing but classic stereotyping.

I will agree that African-Americans are some of the best people I know, and I'm not racist, but in my area of the country this is how they are perceived and it's wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

drifting on said:


> I said stereotyping helps nobody, and that's true. The statement once a cheater always a cheater is not defined as skepticism.
> 
> Skepticism-
> 1 :an attitude of doubt or a disposition to incredulity either in general or toward a particular object
> ...


I disagree that the statement once a cheater always a cheater is 'classic stereotyping'. 

It's a black or white statement that is untrue and potentially harmful (someone who has cheated may opt not to bother working on themselves as under the pressure of such statements may feel they are destined to a life of such mistakes). 

I like the research cited by the OP. Interesting stuff. Basically 1/3 of people cheat at some point in a relationship. If they cheated in a prior relationship it's closer to 50% chance they will cheat in a subsequent relationship. If they didn't cheat, it's reduced to an 18% chance. 

So, basically everyone is capable of, or could cheat. But who would you rather take your chances with, the 50% or the 18%? 

So, how about a new phrase, "once a cheater, higher probability to be one again." Nah, doesn't have the same panache.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Stereotyping a person based on their ethic background and stereotyping someone based on their past behaviour are two different things.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

marduk said:


> Stereotyping a person based on their ethic background and stereotyping someone based on their past behaviour are two different things.



I agree with this, they are totally different, but both are types of stereotyping.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Acoa said:


> I disagree that the statement once a cheater always a cheater is 'classic stereotyping'.
> 
> It's a black or white statement that is untrue and potentially harmful (someone who has cheated may opt not to bother working on themselves as under the pressure of such statements may feel they are destined to a life of such mistakes).
> 
> ...




Saying once a cheater always a cheater is wrong, but I understand the premise of the statement. I don't agree with it and that's my choice. But in essence it is a stereotype. It also says that humans are incapable of change. Think about it, once a cheater always a cheater, you are saying they can't change and will forever cheat. That is incorrect. Yes 
OP did research and that same research shows that once a cheater always a cheater is untrue. I will leave the thread now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

drifting on said:


> I agree with this, they are totally different, but both are types of stereotyping.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, judging a person's individual history is not stereotyping... BUT, judging one person by another person's history because they share a characteristic would definitely be considered stereotyping. If a married person is flirtatious and so happens to be a cheater, then it doesn't make any other flirtatious person a cheater. Saying "once a cheater always a cheater" isn't typing them based on other cheaters being serial cheats, it's assessing their character based on their own individual actions.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

drifting on said:


> I agree with this, they are totally different, but both are types of stereotyping.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So?

When I fire someone, it's because I'm stereotyping based on the idea that his past performance will predict his future performance. 

When a high risk offender is released, they tell the public even though it stereotypes his future risk based on past behaviour. 

I married my wife based on the same line of thinking. 

It doesn't make it bad. It makes it a thing that people do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Saying "tall people have to duck often" isn't stereotyping, it's just pointing out logical, merit-based assumptions.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Everyone, at some point, has heard "once a cheater, always a cheater". And, while it doesn't necessarily follow that a given person, having previously cheated, will continue to do so in either the same relationship and/or in future relationships (which is what, given the title of this thread, we're discussing here), I'd like to point out that the phrase also has another, completely different meaning...

It also implies that, for _some_ that have felt the sting of betrayal inherent to infidelity, his or her wayward partner -- and whether _actively_ or _formerly_ wayward -- will ALWAYS be tainted by it.

And, fortunately, that is also not the case for everyone.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I would suspect, based on standard models, that the number of times someone has cheated, or the length of the affairs perhaps, would vastly increase the probability of a future affair. 

Serial cheaters are probably far more likely to have another affair than someone that had a one night stand once, for example. 

I'm thinking something like a power law distribution would be likely. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_law
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> Everyone, at some point, has heard "once a cheater, always a cheater". And, while it doesn't necessarily follow that a given person, having previously cheated, will continue to do so in either the same relationship and/or in future relationships (which is what, given the title of this thread, we're discussing here), I'd like to point out that the phrase also has another, completely different meaning...
> 
> It also implies that, for _some_ that have felt the sting of betrayal inherent to infidelity, his or her wayward partner -- and whether _actively_ or _formerly_ wayward -- will ALWAYS be tainted by it.
> 
> And, fortunately, that is also not the case for everyone.


Same way that in AA, once you admit you are an alcoholic it means you are always an alcoholic even if you remain sober your entire life.

I'm not sure the analogy is equivalent though, in most cases it's about core characteristics (someone that has decided to seek therapy to change some behavior about themselves may find great success however they must always be vigilant because they are aware that they are prone to that which they choose to no longer act out). For genuine mistakes that led to adultery, I don't think this applies, just as a person without alcoholism may have gotten way too drunk on some occasion.


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## hospitality (Feb 24, 2014)

The stereotype exists because people typically don't get out of bad marriages or bad relationships the first time someone cheats. Also, 100% of the people I know who are cheaters are also the type who cannot live without a girl/boyfriend so they rush right in to one bad relationship after another. The classic is the guy who cheats on his wife and ends up with the OW. Of course he is going to cheat on the OW because there isn't a man on the planet who can truly achieve his mate potential while married. You simply have to take what comes along which isn't that great and therefore the cycle repeats. It works the same for people who are just dating and can't end it, they just take the next five who walks through the door instead of breaking up and being single and marrying the nine that sets your heart on fire.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

marduk said:


> I would suspect, based on standard models, that the number of times someone has cheated, or the length of the affairs perhaps, would vastly increase the probability of a future affair.
> 
> Serial cheaters are probably far more likely to have another affair than someone that had a one night stand once, for example.
> 
> ...


Sometimes being on the internet makes me feel like a freak of nature.

I regularly cheated on my first husband before and during the marriage. Some of my affairs were ONS. More often it was a few time thing. A couple of my lovers were more than 6 months and one was off and on for 6 years.

I left my ex for my last AP. I met him in October, went on a date with him in December, slept with him two weeks later in January, told my ex it was really and truly over a week later, filed for divorce the minute I had the money and married my former AP 2 months after the divorce was final. We've been together 15 years. Married 12 of those years. And in all that time I've never even been tempted to cheat.

We also came from very different socio-economic backgrounds and had very little in common. 

He was the baby of 5 in an intact family. I was the oldest and the product of an affair, so I had a mom and her LT partner.

I was leaving a marriage with two kids, aged 6 and 1. He was never married and not only did he not have kids, none of his friends had kids and he'd never even held a bay or toddler.

I had a small zoo of pets I loved. He never had so much as a goldfish in all his life.

Heck, we didn't even have religion in common. He was raised by a Roman Catholic family and I was raised by Protestants who went to church maybe 10 times my entire childhood.

Strikes against us..
1) I'm the adult child of a broken home. 
2) I was previously married
3) My husband and I were affair partners
4) My husband and I are of completely different backgrounds and religious upbringing
5) We fell in love at first sight and made major life altering decisions to be together on short acquaintance 

Statistically, we shouldn't be so stupidly happy together. I guess statistics aren't everything. :grin2:


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

And, in a related study, it is confirmed that fire is hot.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TX-SC said:


> And, in a related study, it is confirmed that fire is hot.


And when it burns you once you learn not to touch it again.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MJJEAN said:


> Sometimes being on the internet makes me feel like a freak of nature.
> 
> I regularly cheated on my first husband before and during the marriage. Some of my affairs were ONS. More often it was a few time thing. A couple of my lovers were more than 6 months and one was off and on for 6 years.
> 
> ...


Absolutely and congrats on 'beating the odds!'

Can I ask what changed? What was different that broke your cycle of infidelity?

Did you have a pattern of infidelity in relationships prior to your ex husband or was this only with your ex husband?

Forgive me if I pry.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> Sometimes being on the internet makes me feel like a freak of nature.
> 
> I regularly cheated on my first husband before and during the marriage. Some of my affairs were ONS. More often it was a few time thing. A couple of my lovers were more than 6 months and one was off and on for 6 years.
> 
> ...


Wow. Just... wow.

How is your ex these days?

Was he cheating as well?

Was he aware of your infidelities? If not, is he now?

Any chance either of his kids aren't actually his?

What do you feel motivated your affairs?

And if you were cheating prior to marriage, why did you marry him?

I don't ask these questions to offend but rather to understand.

ETA: Is your current husband aware of the degree to which you cheated on your first husband?


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

marduk said:


> Absolutely and congrats on 'beating the odds!'
> 
> Can I ask what changed? What was different that broke your cycle of infidelity?
> 
> ...


Now worries on the prying front. I'm a tell the truth and shame the devil type gal. I don't mind questions at all. I hope that by answering them maybe I can prevent someone else from making my mistakes or maybe help their understanding of themselves and others.

Human behavior and especially behavior in romantic relationships interests me. Probably because my life was so profoundly affected by romantic relationships. 

I mean, think about it. Romantic relationships help determine everything from where you live and work to what kind of sex you have to what food you eat to even how you decorate your home. People make decisions every day based on a compromise or sacrifice of their and their romantic partners wishes.

What changed for me? I have been looking for the answer to that question for a while. 

I decided to convert to the catholic faith when my husband began attending Mass again. Because I was previously civilly married and divorced, we had a problem. I had to apply to the Church for an investigation into my first marriage. If the Church found the marriage invalid, I would be free to marry DH in the faith. If the marriage was to be found valid, DH and I would be considered to be in a perpetual state of Mortal Sin and wouldn't be eligible to receive the Sacraments.

The determination process is quite invasive and the Church asks a lot of hard questions.

In answering those questions and really looking at myself and my life at the time, the best I have ever been able to come up with is that I finally found someone I loved and wanted to commit to.

It could also be a function of maturity. I met my ex when I was 16. Moved out of my parents home at 17 and got pregnant later that year. Had my daughter at 18. Married her father at 19. Had my 2nd daughter at 23, met my DH at 24. Maybe I just grew up enough to be capable of fidelity.

I was always an old soul, though. I think I could have been faithful to someone when I was younger if I'd met someone worth being faithful for.




GusPolinski said:


> Wow. Just... wow.
> 
> How is your ex these days?
> 
> ...


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

I should probably add that everything with myself and DH isn't perfect. We've had our issues. 

We had my girls from my first marriage and we had a son together. Kids will put a strain on any relationship. Now imagine going from no one you know has kids to being a step-father to a first grader and a toddler overnight! And, for my part, I had to learn to share parenting with someone else. My ex didn't do anything for the kids, so having another parental figure was a new thing for me.

He had to adjust to the dogs and cat. Then to a tortoise and parrot. He's really into them now, though. He likes the dogs and bird more than most people.

DH went through a phase when we were going through a rough patch and I was trying to communicate. Every freakin time I tried to explain he wasn't meeting a need, he'd go right to "Oh, so you want to have an affair! Well, go out and do it if that's what you want to do." Took a long time for me to get him to understand that I did NOT want an affair. I wanted to be married. To him. I just needed him to step it up a bit because he was getting complacent and taking me for granted.

There are some things we have had to agree to disagree on and don't usually bring up. We have different views on child support laws. We can't talk about a "friend" of his without a referee. If there is only one working gaming computer in the house, we might kill each other. (He introduced me to gaming and got all pissy when I took to it like a duck to water.) The band Abba, Lady Gaga, and the former tv series Xena:Warrior Princess and Hercules are topics that could start WWIII.

His laundry methods horrify me and I don't think he's ever picked up a sock or any other clothing. He's washed dishes about 5 times...ever.

Believe me, the man can get on my nerve. In fact, he can make me batty like no one else ever could. And I am sure I do the same to him. Yet, for some reason, we really do love each other and get along very well.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Geeeeeeeeeezzz...

First, @MJJEAN, thanks for opening up. You certainly aren't accountable to anyone here for the events of your life, but I'm sure that many will appreciate that you've chosen to share so much.

Second, while I can't condone cheating, it honestly sounds like neither you nor your ex had any expectation of either true partnership or monogamy.

You both had a lot of growing up to do, and it's such a shame that -- at least to date -- he hasn't done any of it for himself.

ETA: Which PC games do the two of you play?


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Geeeeeeeeeezzz...
> 
> First, @MJJEAN, thanks for opening up. You certainly aren't accountable to anyone here for the events of your life, but I'm sure that many will appreciate that you've chosen to share so much.
> 
> ...


Aww, no problem on the sharing. Really. I don't get offended easily and I don't have anything to hide. I am who I am. I did what I did. I learned a few things. Why not put it out there and hope it helps someone? 

Maybe someone will walk away with a better understanding. 

Maybe some young woman won't make a disastrous mistake and marry the wrong man in the name of doing the right thing. 

Maybe some wife considering cheating will decide that her husband ain't so bad after all, by comparison to my ex, and work it out or just divorce instead.

Maybe someone will realize that once a cheater doesn't mean always a cheater and take a chance on love. And maybe it'll work out for them.

I can't answer for my ex, but I didn't expect a true partnership or monogamy. We said the words in a civil ceremony because it was a social convention. It was what we were supposed to do since we had a kid and all. Time to grow up and get married. 

I think the best we were hoping for was to be functional friends who didn't curtail each others activities too much.

The Church agreed. My annulment was granted this past spring after nearly two years of waiting for the case to be heard by the Tribunals.


Between my own testimony and that of the required number of Witnesses (friends and family who knew us both at the time of the marriage and who are willing to answer a lengthy questionnaire), the Tribunal found the marriage invalid. The ruling was that, at the time of the ceremony and afterward, neither of us consented to what marriage actually is, we failed to form a marital bond, and merely simulated marriage.

Took a Tribunal of very well educated people 19 pages of typed testimony from me alone, two pages from each of 3 friends and family, and just shy of two years to figure out what I knew the day I got married. And what you figured out from a few forum posts!

I wish my ex would grow up already. He's 43 for Petes sake! My ex in laws and I maintained a good relationship. Ex MIL came up a couple years back to visit my middle daughter. She brought along my oldest and my ex's son with his new wife. I felt so bad for that poor kid. I knew a lot of what was going on back then and just felt bad for the lil guy. It'd be nice if ex had an epiphany and became a man for the sake of those babies.

I play mostly MMORPG's and some RTS. I'm kicking around getting back into console gaming, but it's been years. I've been Blizzard's b*tch since Diablo II. The merge with Activision was a dark day. Totally ruined WoW, but I am looking at HoTS. Can't wait to get a new machine to play. Our old gaming comp blew up. Like, actual fire. Bad power source. A few months later, the other one had a catastrophic hard drive failure.

We're debating which system to buy next and we have to get two or there will be blood!


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## Quigster (Aug 1, 2015)

stephscarlett said:


> I am a former wayward wife. I have not cheated a second time. It's been 5.5 years.


I'm a former wayward husband but I've been in my new relationship for nearly 11 years. To the original poster, and all the people who seem to agree with the premise, how much time do you require before you no longer view me as a serial cheater? 20 years? 50 years?


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Good question, Quigster.

I believe the research that sparked this discussion followed participants for 5 years. So, let's use that. I say anyone faithful for more than 5 years loses the Serial Cheater title.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Quigster said:


> I'm a former wayward husband but I've been in my new relationship for nearly 11 years. To the original poster, and all the people who seem to agree with the premise, how much time do you require before you no longer view me as a serial cheater? 20 years? 50 years?


I don't think it matters what anyone but you and your spouse thinks.

What do you think? What does she think?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> *I don't think it matters what anyone but you and your spouse thinks.*
> 
> What do you think? What does she think?


Agreed 100% and no i do not believe ALL cheaters will necessarily cheat again - but if the spouse gets suspicous more easily given their partner's history well that is understandable. 
@marduk one thing I do wonder thought ss how many have people who have had PAs and stop go on to have EAs and since it doesn't go physical think they are not cheating but still getting the ego boost they crave. I have no clue but it is a question I have had.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agreed 100% and no i do not believe ALL cheaters will necessarily cheat again - but if the spouse gets suspicous more easily given their partner's history well that is understandable.
> 
> @marduk one thing I do wonder thought ss how many have people who have had PAs and stop go on to have EAs and since it doesn't go physical think they are not cheating but still getting the ego boost they crave. I have no clue but it is a question I have had.


I think that people that seek external validation will continue to do so as long as they need to feel validated.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> I think that people that seek external validation will continue to do so as long as they need to feel validated.


Do you think that is a common trait of cheaters? By which I mean that they have a heightened need for external validation - more so than the average person?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Do you think that is a common trait of cheaters? By which I mean that they have a heightened need for external validation - more so than the average person?


For _some_, yes. 

Not for all. People cheat for all kinds of reasons, from ones that seem super-duper-mega ****ty to ones that are slightly less ****ty.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> For _some_, yes.
> 
> Not for all. People cheat for all kinds of reasons, from ones that seem super-duper-mega ****ty to ones that are slightly less ****ty.


But either way it's sh*tty.....:grin2:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

The only answer is, maybe yes, maybe no.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Truthseeker1 said:


> But either way it's sh*tty.....:grin2:


After reading Esther Perel's "Mating in Captivity" I can now well imagine a situation where a spouse is basically effectively trapped into a sexless marriage -- by economics, by a crappy spouse, by children, by their own family...

Where it would be quite understandible to cheat. Not condonable -- I'm still in a place where I think that the bulk of such things is essentially a cop-out, I can envision such a situation.

For example, my in laws are very religious. And both the economic and emotional consequences for divorce would be massive. And so one of my in-laws had a string of affairs to 'escape' his sexless marriage.

And, of course, his marriage ended anyway. In a far more horrible way than if he would have just left her to begin with. But I can see the motivation.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> After reading Esther Perel's "Mating in Captivity" I can now well imagine a situation where a spouse is basically effectively trapped into a sexless marriage -- by economics, by a crappy spouse, by children, by their own family...
> 
> Where it would be quite understandible to cheat. Not condonable -- I'm still in a place where I think that the bulk of such things is essentially a cop-out, I can envision such a situation.
> 
> ...


There is never a shortage of motivations to do bad things in life or take shortcuts some people take that way out - many don't - sometimes doing the right thing sucks and it takes a stronger person to walk down the right road.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

I stopped reading after "Esther Perel." She's known for blaming the BS for the WS's affair. Not. Even. Close.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> I stopped reading after "Esther Perel." She's known for blaming the BS for the WS's affair. Not. Even. Close.


i'm not really familiar with her - is she a popular relationship expert?

and if she does indeed blame the BS for the WSs cheating than she hurts her credibility IMO. There are too many excuses given for bad behavior.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

stephscarlett said:


> I stopped reading after "Esther Perel." She's known for blaming the BS for the WS's affair. Not. Even. Close.


I would change 'blame' to 'sometimes be part of the root cause.'

Take my in-law. Married young, and his wife turned the taps off sex. He tried a lot of things, but she was just done with sex. Forever. 

Yes, he should have left as a consequence instead of cheating. 

But she was a significant part of the root cause for him looking elsewhere. 

Marriage does not mean that someone can simultaneously expect monogamy and chastity just because one party decides the other should.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

marduk said:


> Marriage does not mean that someone can simultaneously expect monogamy and chastity just because one party decides the other should.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It sure does it you stood up the day you were married and promised this. 

The "root cause" is the WS choosing "affair" as their coping mechanism of choice. My husband was emotionally absent for years before my affair. So freaking what. I could have done a million other things than have an affair. Does it really matter where the pain stems from? It matters how I handle it. People can always leave marriages.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

stephscarlett said:


> It sure does it you stood up the day you were married and promised this.
> 
> The "root cause" is the WS choosing "affair" as their coping mechanism of choice. My husband was emotionally absent for years before my affair. So freaking what. I could have done a million other things than have an affair. Does it really matter where the pain stems from? It matters how I handle it. People can always leave marriages.


Is having an affair ****ty? Yes. I've been on the wrong side of that. 

Was I also on the wrong side of a sexless marriage ****ty? Yes. I was on the wrong side of that, too. 

Marriage does not mean you own your partner's sexuality. It also means you take some accountability for your partner's sexual satisfaction if you want monogamy. 

Again, I've been in both. And if I stopped wanting or being able to have sex with my wife and didn't try to fix it, I would offer her a way out, not expect a lifetime of chastity just because I chose it for myself. 

Yes, as I said, I would leave. And expect my spouse to do the same rather than cheat.

But those that turn their back sexually or emotionally or romantically on their spouse and then are shocked that they have an affair...

Then I say that was a ****ty situation that they both contributed to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Btw, I did promise unconditional love and commitment and monogamy in marriage #1 and it was a terrible mistake. 

Because all that did was to allow my wife to own my sexuality while simultaneously rejecting it; and eventually it was weaponized and used to distort my thinking about duty and honour. 

I will never do that again and I wouldn't suggest it to a friend. Hell, I wouldn't suggest it to my worst enemy. 

"Poor is the man who's pleasures depend upon the permissions of another."
- Lenny Kravitz. 

I give monogamy as a gift only because she deserves it and gives it to me in return while respecting my sexual identity. It's a choice. Every day. Not a one time deal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

I will give it because I promised it. If life turns out to be different than what I signed up for I will change my circumstance, but I will be faithful as long as we are married, no matter what that marriage looks like.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

stephscarlett said:


> I will give it because I promised it. If life turns out to be different than what I signed up for I will change my circumstance, but I will be faithful as long as we are married, no matter what that marriage looks like.


And that is admirable. Just please don't let that be twisted and used against you.

And please take a giant step back to see if and how that relates to your husband turning his back on you. Because there might be a piece of "I know she'll be there no matter what I do" to that.

Or not. I don't know your circumstances. But I do know human nature, being one myself.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

stephscarlett said:


> It sure does it you stood up the day you were married and promised this.
> 
> The "root cause" is the WS choosing "affair" as their coping mechanism of choice. My husband was emotionally absent for years before my affair. So freaking what. I could have done a million other things than have an affair. Does it really matter where the pain stems from? It matters how I handle it. People can always leave marriages.


uh, part of my vows were to have and to hold, which implies a sexual relationship with my spouse. If one partner turns off the spigot, they are violating their vows. maybe not as bad as an affair, but imo, pretty darn close.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

naiveonedave said:


> uh, part of my vows were to have and to hold, which implies a sexual relationship with my spouse. If one partner turns off the spigot, they are violating their vows. maybe not as bad as an affair, but imo, pretty darn close.


For me, it's about accountability.

If you want monogamy with me, you share accountability for my sexual happiness.

If you want emotional monogamy with me, you share accountability for my emotional happiness.

And so on down the line it goes.

It does NOT mean that I will give myself a get out of jail free card for having an EA or PA. But it does mean that I have clear expectations of her and that I feel for myself (shared accountability for her happiness).

To much absence of that and we have a problem with the marriage.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

marduk said:


> For me, it's about accountability.
> 
> If you want monogamy with me, you share accountability for my sexual happiness.
> 
> ...


imo, that is what to have and to hold means. So I am in agreement with you.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> And that is admirable. Just please don't let that be twisted and used against you.
> 
> *And please take a giant step back to see if and how that relates to your husband turning his back on you. Because there might be a piece of "I know she'll be there no matter what I do" to that.*
> 
> Or not. I don't know your circumstances. But I do know human nature, being one myself.


Commitment has to be a 2 way street or just head for the exits. Adultery as a coping mechanism is never a solution whatever the problems may be..cheaters disrespect themselves as well as their BS by lowering themselves in taking part in such vile behavior..that is another thing that is not frequently discussed how the cheater has defiled themselves as well as their marriage...infidelity is a sin that is corrosive to the souls of all involved....


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

naiveonedave said:


> uh, part of my vows were to have and to hold, which implies a sexual relationship with my spouse. If one partner turns off the spigot, they are violating their vows. maybe not as bad as an affair, but imo, pretty darn close.


I agree. There are many vows. But having an affair to compensate for this should not be an option. Divorce, yes. Open marriage, if both agree, yes. but going behind someone's back, lying, deceit - no.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

stephscarlett said:


> I agree. There are many vows. But having an affair to compensate for this should not be an option. Divorce, yes. Open marriage, if both agree, yes. but going behind someone's back, lying, deceit - no.


Totally agree.

But once you discover your spouse had an affair, whether you choose to stay with them or not, once you get over the shock of it...

You might as well learn from the situation. It was a really ****ty journey to discover and have to accept that I actually contributed to my ex wife having an affair.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

see and I don't think my husband contributed to mine at all. He does though.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> But once you discover your spouse had an affair, whether you choose to stay with them or not, once you get over the shock of it...
> 
> You might as well learn from the situation. *It was a really ****ty journey to discover and have to accept that I actually contributed to my ex wife having an affair*.


no you may have contributed to her unhappiness not her choosing to cheat...that is on her...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Truthseeker1 said:


> no you may have contributed to her unhappiness not her choosing to cheat...that is on her...


Yes. 

But I contributed to the situation that led to her making that decision. 

Listen. In no way do I blame myself for her crappy immature and selfish decision. But I do understand it quite differently now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

stephscarlett said:


> see and I don't think my husband contributed to mine at all. He does though.


You had an affair?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> Yes.
> 
> But I contributed to the situation that led to her making that decision.
> 
> ...


the only thing that contributed to her having an affair is her...it had ZERO to do with you..we are all unhappy but how we cope is what defines our true character..and its not just selfish and immature its [email protected]#$%^ abusive...


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

stephscarlett said:


> see and I don't think my husband contributed to mine at all. He does though.


There's a difference between the thought that a given BS contributed to his or her WS's affair(s) and the notion that, whether by action or inaction, the BS contributed to the poor and unhealthy state of his or her marriage, w/o which the WS likely would not have pursued or engaged in an affair.

Either way, do you feel that you contributed to either of your husband's affairs?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Thanks Gus, that's what I meant. 

We can apply stress to our marriage. We can de-stress it and fix it if we are aware of it, and if we have what it takes to figure out what is causing that stress and try to resolve it skillfully.

Or we can add stress by blame shifting to the other person. Or make the stress chronic by not dealing with it. Or just not owning up to your piece of it. 

And stress causes consequences. Stress on your body can be good if it's done skillfully, like exercise. Or it can make you sick if you don't deal with it or it becomes chronic. So you get sick. 

Sick marriages treated unskilfully have negative outcomes in general.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> There's a difference between the thought that a given BS contributed to his or her WS's affair(s) and the notion that, whether by action or inaction, the BS contributed to the poor and unhealthy state of his or her marriage, w/o which the WS likely would not have pursued or engaged in an affair.
> 
> Either way, do you feel that you contributed to either of your husband's affairs?


I caused him pain. I did not cause his affairs. Nor did he cause mine.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

stephscarlett said:


> I caused him pain. I did not cause his affairs. Nor did he cause mine.


What caused your affairs?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Just being generally unhappy and thinking other people or things could make me happy, a kid in Afghanistan I worried about and needed distracted from, empty nesting closing upon me, aging, - see all really poor excuses. My happiness and maturity and ability to be a mature adult in a relationship is MY thing to handle. Not act out.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

stephscarlett said:


> Just being generally unhappy and thinking other people or things could make me happy, a kid in Afghanistan I worried about and needed distracted from, empty nesting closing upon me, aging, - see all really poor excuses. My happiness and maturity and ability to be a mature adult in a relationship is MY thing to handle. Not act out.


If you put the excuse thing aside, what caused you to be unhappy?

What caused you to think that other people could make you happy?

What caused you to not go to your husband with that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

fear of abandonment, conflict avoidance, etcetera. I expected him to read mind and got resentful when he didn't. Very screwed up I was. 

I was unhappy with myself. Child rearing gave me many distractions. He was a good enough partner.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

stephscarlett said:


> fear of abandonment, conflict avoidance, etcetera. I expected him to read mind and got resentful when he didn't. Very screwed up I was.
> 
> I was unhappy with myself. Child rearing gave me many distractions. He was a good enough partner.


And do you still want to have an affair?


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## californian (Jan 28, 2010)

Devastated an lost said:


> But I don't see him as one to just cheat for the fun of it.


Why can't you? Did he not have fun while doing it?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

californian said:


> Why can't you? Did he not have fun while doing it?


All cheaters are having fun while the affair is going on - or they would not be going out of their way to have sex with someone repeatedly if it wasn't a blast. It the consequences that aren't fun..kind of like running up a credit card bill - the shopping was fun but when the bill comes at the end of the month and you don't have the cash to pay it not so much fun.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

I have not desired to have an affair since I had one, even when he had two. I dont get to act out because he does. Last thing I wanted to do. When you have an affair you actually betray yourself as well.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> I have not desired to have an affair since I had one, even when he had two. I dont get to act out because he does. Last thing I wanted to do. When you have an affair you actually betray yourself as well.


Yeah....agreed...the WS defiles themself as well..although many do not see it that way...


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Here's a good candidate for being a serial cheat according to some of the comments. It makes me smile that he got his @$$ whipped.
Navy Commander Vincent Wood; beaten and fired : This ain't Hell, but you can see it from here


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## californian (Jan 28, 2010)

Truthseeker1 said:


> All cheaters are having fun while the affair is going on - or they would not be going out of their way to have sex with someone repeatedly if it wasn't a blast. It the consequences that aren't fun..kind of like running up a credit card bill - the shopping was fun but when the bill comes at the end of the month and you don't have the cash to pay it not so much fun.


In that case the cheater got lucky as it seems that his wife came up with all of the excuses for him.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"I am in disagreement that once a cheater always a cheater. People can change, people can better themselves, and not everyone continues to make bad choices."

I actually agree with this...conditionally.

What I mean is this.

People can change....for THEMSELVES and because THEY want to.

It is the same for alcoholics, drug addicts, even quitting smoking......a person has to want change for themselves.

But too often, especially in R from infidelity.....a person is trying to change for someone else....their BS, their kids, etc.

It just doesn't really work....change to please other people, rather than something we desire for our own good or improvement, eventually breeds resentment of the person or people that the WS (or alcoholic, addict, etc) is changing for.

Change is hard work....and it is very easy for the WS to start to resent the fact they feel they can't be 'genuine' or be allowed to be 'who they really are' if the motivation for their change is others rather than a true desire inside themselves to become a better person. 

Unfortunately, in the aftermath of an A, a WS too often enters IC and sets out to change more to placate their BS than out of a deep seated desire inside themselves to become better.

I saw this with alcohol in my family...every one of my maternal grandmother's brothers was a life-long alcoholic....the ONLY one who quit prior to death.....just up and did it one day...for himself.

All my other uncles would always promise their kids and wives they were going to change, go to AA for awhile, etc, etc....they would stay on the wagon for a short time, and then fall right back into drinking and the same behaviors.

So, IMO....WS's who truly want to figure out and change themselves, for THEMSELVES, have the best chance of truly becoming someone a BS can R with.

If their only motivation for change though is to calm and placate their angry BS in order to prevent a D in the aftermath of discovery...I don't think these changes last.

And a few years down the road, when the immediate crisis is over, the BS looks at their fWS and realizes they have gone back to acting very much like they did during the A and in the pre-A M.


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## Recoveringws (Oct 1, 2014)

I think the 'once a cheater, always a cheater' is far too simplistic to be true.

Because if you apply this standard, than 95% of the population is undateable. The vast majority of people have cheated in SOME way at some point in their lives. Even some of you who are so self-righteous on the subject probably have too. have you ever flirted with someone while you were in a committed relationship? You cheated. Have you ever started seeing someone else when you had not first broken up with the primary person? You've cheated. Ever had one drunken kiss at a party with someone while committed to another? You've cheated.

So basically if we hold all people to this standard -- then everyone is going to cheat again and nobody is worth dating? Even ourselves?

Why not "once a liar, always a liar?" Have any of you told lies to someone close to you? Then how do they know you won't lie again? You see my point.

So, no, I don't think it's that simple. There are serial cheaters -- "thrill seekers". And yes, they establish a pattern of it that they likely won't stop.

But there are people that made one mistake and paid a big price for it, internally and externally, who take this opportunity to reexamine themselves and their life and make fundamental changes in behavior. And would never cheat again.

Clearly, people are more than capable of learning from their errors. If you believe, "once a cheater, always a cheater", then all the therapists, all the book writers, need to close up shop because apparently this particular sin is worse than all others in the world -- that once you do it once, you can't help but do it again and again. Research says otherwise.

And of course to take the "once a cheater, always a cheater" approach is to basically let the betrayed spouse off the hook -- they don't have to examine themselves in the mirror and their role in a relationship so lousy that their spouse walked out on them. They don't have to try and reconcile a relationship, because if you believe this dogma, its a waste of time. it's an excuse to give up. To take the self-righteous high road and be the victim. And there is power in being the victim indefinitely. I get that.

I think if the research and the blogs prove anything is that people can and do learn from mistakes. People, when they have the right attitude, can not only rise above what happened, but have marriages that actually thrive after it. I don't think however that pithy, self-serving attitudes will get anyone there. 

Are there serial cheaters? You bet. Tiger Woods, Bill Clinton, etc. They exist. But research says they are by far the minority. The reasons that people get involved in infidelity are far more complex than "I had a an opportunity and took it."

so instead of using a broad brush on all cheaters (which is easy, but not accurate), examine YOUR former cheater to find out whether they are the serial type or not

Here are five signs of relationship advice that indicate your cheater is not a chronic case and that the couple still has hope:

1. Your partner is truly remorseful and regrets having cheated. Look for heartfelt apologies that ring true when you hear them.
2. Your partner cuts off contact with his or her lover.
3. The cheater shows a renewed appreciation and devotion towards you.
4. You wind up having deep, open and honest conversations with each other about your relationship, what was missing in it and where you'd like to take it in the future.
5. Your partner is willing to enter counseling either individually or with you to understand his/her own dynamics and to make your relationship better and more intimate.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

I would add that the WS needs to want to change for themselves. People who cheat, I'm convinced, are broken. They need to want to heal and fix themselves despite the status of the relationship they cheated in.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Recoveringws said:


> I think the 'once a cheater, always a cheater' is far too simplistic to be true.
> 
> *Because if you apply this standard, than 95% of the population is undateable. The vast majority of people have cheated in SOME way at some point in their lives.* Even some of you who are so self-righteous on the subject probably have too. have you ever flirted with someone while you were in a committed relationship? You cheated. Have you ever started seeing someone else when you had not first broken up with the primary person? You've cheated. Ever had one drunken kiss at a party with someone while committed to another? You've cheated.
> 
> ...



This only works with your VERY broad definition of cheating....which I reject.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> I would add that the WS needs to want to change for themselves. People who cheat, I'm convinced, are broken. They need to want to heal and fix themselves despite the status of the relationship they cheated in.


Truth.

A cheater needs to become a better person regardless of if their decimated relationship is salvageable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Truth.
> 
> A cheater needs to become a better person regardless of if their decimated relationship is salvageable.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree 100%..the cheater had also damaged themselves and that needs to be fixed. Few cheaters have the strength to fix themselves and help their BS heal - some do manage to pull it off. That's why it is vital for the BS to realize that their partners affair is about their partners defects and not theirs...easier said than done i know. Ultimately the BS in many cases is on their own to heal themselves and move on.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

stephscarlett said:


> I have not desired to have an affair since I had one, even when he had two. I dont get to act out because he does. Last thing I wanted to do. When you have an affair you actually betray yourself as well.


What changed?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

A realization that I made all those choices myself. That only I could make myself happy. I did a lot of reading.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> A realization that I made all those choices myself. That only I could make myself happy. I did a lot of reading.


I think that that is realization we all must come to - that happiness comes form within. I had to realize this myself in a non-infidelity related context. A change in geography, finances, lovers, etc will mean little if you don't take care of what is broken inside. It all starts from you and flows outward.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think that that is realization we all must come to - that happiness comes form within. I had to realize this myself in a non-infidelity related context. A change in geography, finances, lovers, etc will mean little if you don't take care of what is broken inside. It all starts from you and flows outward.


True, but eventually it also has to lead you to a point where you only choose to be around people that help create the conditions to sustain your happiness, not detract it.

Other people cannot make you happy, I agree.

But other people can increase your happiness, or take it away, if you let them.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> True, but eventually it also has to lead you to a point where you only choose to be around people that help create the conditions to sustain your happiness, not detract it.
> 
> Other people cannot make you happy, I agree.
> 
> But other people can increase your happiness, or take it away, if you let them.


Oh yeah..big time! They say surround yourself with the kind of people you want to be.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

MJJEAN said:


> Good question, Quigster.
> 
> I believe the research that sparked this discussion followed participants for 5 years. So, let's use that. I say anyone faithful for more than 5 years loses the Serial Cheater title.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Only 5 years? As a betrayed, I'm 4 years out from discovering my ex W's A, and only starting to feel recovered from that. Our relationship was monogamous for 7 years, but she had both cheated on BFs past as well as been the OW to a married man... She revealed all this early on and I believe she was repentant and grew past it, but she wasn't. She has remarried since, and to a good man, but I'd wager $1000 she cheats within the next 5-10 years. 10-15 years is a more reliable timeline to determine serial status.


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## vox.populi (Aug 8, 2013)

I joined this forum 3 years ago on the heels of my first D-day. 3 years later I'm a single father of 3. If I could go back 3 years and choose divorce following D-day. I would not. I would relive the lies, STD's and widespread general badmouthing and self-pitiful/SAHMisms. During the course of those 3 years I earned an advanced degree in CompSci, inventoried a great deal of marriage lessons, got myself into shape, and doubled my income. I'll spend my next 20 years with someone who possesses self-integrity.

I just wanted to thank Truthseeker1, marduk, and stephscarlett for these last few treasure troves:

*People who cheat, I'm convinced, are broken. They need to want to heal and fix themselves despite the status of the relationship they cheated in. 

*A cheater needs to become a better person regardless of if their decimated relationship is salvageable

*Few cheaters have the strength to fix themselves and help their BS heal - some do manage to pull it off. That's why it is vital for the BS to realize that their partners affair is about their partners defects and not theirs...easier said than done i know. Ultimately the BS in many cases is on their own to heal themselves and move on.

*That only I could make myself happy


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## vox.populi (Aug 8, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Ultimately the BS in many cases is on their own to heal themselves and move on.


Ts1,

You win the Comment's Pulitzer with this one. Although, I would make minor tweaks.

"Ultimately, the BS who breaks ties smoothly and starts living the better life they were capable of all along can not just heal but really MOVE ON."

To me it feels somewhat like a good takeoff minus the usual over laden chore of getting airborne with 5 tons of fecal cargo.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

vox.populi said:


> I joined this forum 3 years ago on the heels of my first D-day. 3 years later I'm a single father of 3. If I could go back 3 years and choose divorce following D-day. I would not. I would relive the lies, STD's and widespread general badmouthing and self-pitiful/SAHMisms. During the course of those 3 years I earned an advanced degree in CompSci, inventoried a great deal of marriage lessons, got myself into shape, and doubled my income. I'll spend my next 20 years with someone who possesses self-integrity.
> 
> I just wanted to thank Truthseeker1, marduk, and stephscarlett for these last few treasure troves:
> 
> ...


You made yourself stronger - so when you choose your next partner it will be from a place of confidence and not fear or desperation. Good going man!!!


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Lon said:


> Only 5 years? As a betrayed, I'm 4 years out from discovering my ex W's A, and only starting to feel recovered from that. Our relationship was monogamous for 7 years, but she had both cheated on BFs past as well as been the OW to a married man... She revealed all this early on and I believe she was repentant and grew past it, but she wasn't. She has remarried since, and to a good man, but I'd wager $1000 she cheats within the next 5-10 years. 10-15 years is a more reliable timeline to determine serial status.


I'll take it out even further...

Go the rest of your life w/o cheating and THEN you lose the title.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

stephscarlett said:


> I have not desired to have an affair since I had one, even when he had two. I dont get to act out because he does. Last thing I wanted to do. *When you have an affair you actually betray yourself as well.*


I've pointed this out more than once, but it usually falls on deaf ears. Either way, it's very true, at least for those possessed of even an ounce of integrity.

Keen insight.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Lon said:


> Only 5 years? As a betrayed, I'm 4 years out from discovering my ex W's A, and only starting to feel recovered from that. Our relationship was monogamous for 7 years, but she had both cheated on BFs past as well as been the OW to a married man... She revealed all this early on and I believe she was repentant and grew past it, but she wasn't. She has remarried since, and to a good man, but I'd wager $1000 she cheats within the next 5-10 years. 10-15 years is a more reliable timeline to determine serial status.


Your ex obviously has something very broken inside of her since she has cheated in multiple relationships. She is a bad risk for any man to get involved with. If she hasn't fixed it the odds are she will cheat on him too.


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## californian (Jan 28, 2010)

In order to want to change one needs to (at the very least) _be willing to see the flaws in oneself_ (not mentioning having the motivation and ability to overcome them). Most people don't because _ego reconstruction is a painful process_. That's why the truth is that while some people change, most don't. Approaching it statistically, _the odds of somebody changing to your liking are strongly against you_. If you believe the change is possible, then start with yourself and see how easy it goes. For instance, how about changing your dependency on the person whom you wish to change to your liking? If you succeed, you won't need the other person to change for you and the problem will be solved. If you don't, you'll get the taste of your own medicine and the idea of the odds of the other person changing either for you or for him/herself. *Ready, set, go!*


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

californian said:


> In order to want to change one needs to (at the very least) _be willing to see the flaws in oneself_ (not mentioning having the motivation and ability to overcome them). Most people don't because _ego reconstruction is a painful process_. That's why the truth is that while some people change, most don't. Approaching it statistically, _the odds of somebody changing to your liking are strongly against you_. If you believe the change is possible, then start with yourself and see how easy it goes. For instance, how about changing your dependency on the person whom you wish to change to your liking? If you succeed, you won't need the other person to change for you and the problem will be solved. If you don't, you'll get the taste of your own medicine and the idea of the odds of the other person changing either for you or for him/herself. *Ready, set, go!*


I agree change is difficult, which is why health reconciliations are rarer than we think.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Your ex obviously has something very broken inside of her since she has cheated in multiple relationships. She is a bad risk for any man to get involved with. If she hasn't fixed it the odds are she will cheat on him too.


But what are the odds she has fixed herself? As far as I could tell when I got involved with her, she had turned her life around, had undertaken much counselling and was a genuinely honest woman. I wagered wrong, not based on her cheating history but on her ability to change herself.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Lon said:


> But what are the odds she has fixed herself? As far as I could tell when I got involved with her, she had turned her life around, had undertaken much counselling and was a genuinely honest woman. I wagered wrong, not based on her cheating history but on her ability to change herself.


Oh from what you described if she hasn't done serious IC then she is a ticking time bomb and it is a matter of time before she cheats unless she has hit a wall looks wise...


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## vox.populi (Aug 8, 2013)

At the end of the day all any BS can truly do is live a better life.

Of course, an investment property that the WS can be exiled to is also a good recovery plan.....'you take that old rental of ours and I'll just stay right here with the kids and keep food on the table' <==== magical escape plan from your flea bitten WS ;-)


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

californian said:


> ...For instance, how about changing your dependency on the person whom you wish to change to your liking? If you succeed, you won't need the other person to change for you and the problem will be solved. If you don't, you'll get the taste of your own medicine and the idea of the odds of the other person changing either for you or for him/herself. *Ready, set, go!*


On d-day, this for me was the harshest realization about my ex W - yes the betrayal of trust stung, but it was the sudden discovery that she was dependent on others for validation - until that moment I had always believed her to be a self-assured person, who was willing to go against the flow to do what she thought was right not just for the sake of rebelling. Which was one of the main reasons I had complete trust and faith in our partnership.

I found out instantaneously everything I thought I knew about her was wrong, that all along her independence was only the perception she worked hard to put out there, it was her facade, and because of that she could never have truly had trust or faith in our partnership. That's where the shock comes from when you learn someone you love has cheated.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Oh from what you described if she hasn't done serious IC then she is a ticking time bomb and it is a matter of time before she cheats unless she has hit a wall looks wise...


Well you can do thousands of hours of IC, but if it doesn't actually turn a switch inside the person (if they even have such a switch) it can't do a thing to change someone. I have no idea if my ex sought IC after our separation, but if she did I certainly wouldn't ever consider it if it came to reconciliation (by that point in the timeline). Makes it difficult to co-parent with them though, you really have to stretch your compartmentalization skills.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Lon said:


> Well you can do thousands of hours of IC, but if it doesn't actually turn a switch inside the person (if they even have such a switch) it can't do a thing to change someone. I have no idea if my ex sought IC after our separation, but if she did I certainly wouldn't ever consider it if it came to reconciliation (by that point in the timeline). Makes it difficult to co-parent with them though, you really have to stretch your compartmentalization skills.


I do not envy your situation having to co-parent with a cheater...ugh...sickening that you have to still see their face..


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I do not envy your situation having to co-parent with a cheater...ugh...sickening that you have to still see their face..


But you train yourself to not get sick when you do, so that your child has the benefit of healthy parental guidance. And when you do can put all that shock and disappointment out of your mind you find you can even appreciate the good qualities the ex has for the sake of the kids (it's just hard to ever forget that betrayal or de-compartmentalize the interaction).


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Lon said:


> But you train yourself to not get sick when you do, so that your child has the benefit of healthy parental guidance. And when you do can put all that shock and disappointment out of your mind you find you can even appreciate the good qualities the ex has for the sake of the kids (it's just hard to ever forget that betrayal or de-compartmentalize the interaction).


I commend you for putting the needs of your child first your ex sure as hell didn't.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"Either way, it's very true, at least for those possessed of even an ounce of integrity."

I agree Gus, it is a betrayal of self to those with a sense of honor or dignity.....the problem is that most cheaters don't even have that ounce of integrity to begin with, so how can they betray what never existed?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> "Either way, it's very true, at least for those possessed of even an ounce of integrity."
> 
> I agree Gus,* it is a betrayal of self to those with a sense of honor or dignity.....the problem is that most cheaters don't even have that ounce of integrity to begin with, so how can they betray what never existed?*


They are broken creatures who need serious help - especially those who engage in LTAs of a year or more. and neglect their spouse and their family while chasing that strange. There is something seriously wrong with a person who REPEATEDLY has the capacity to lie and cheat and endanger their whole family for an extended period of time.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Dyokemm said:


> the problem is that most cheaters don't even have that ounce of integrity to begin with, so how can they betray what never existed?


I'm going to disagree with this. I think MOST do have values, but dont' realize it. They sail through life simply living, but not living their values intentionally. They dont hurt anyone, yet they don't know that they need to be protective and proactive, at times. 
I don't think most people start out saying to themselves, "I should have an affair." I know some do, but not most.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> I'm going to disagree with this. I think *MOST do have values, but dont' realize it.* They sail through life simply living, but not living their values intentionally. They dont hurt anyone, yet they don't know that they need to be protective and proactive, at times.
> I don't think most people start out saying to themselves, "I should have an affair." I know some do, but not most.


Or they didn't have strong values but the utter devastation caused by their vile act leads them to reassess and seek redemption...rare but I'm sure it happens..also most people start out flirting and enjoying attention of the opposite sex - so they are already making the decision to go down that road..they do decide to have the affair...it makes them feel good


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## princevinco (Jul 7, 2014)

"If They Cheated Once, Will They Cheat Again?" Yes, there is a great tendency that they may cheat again unless what caused them to cheat is addressed and dealt with. For instance, a man or woman may be under the manipulation or influence of spell/love charm or love potion which may be the cause why he/she cheated. Unless the spell/charm is broken and the man/woman become free, if not, so long as he or she is under manipulation, he or she is bound to cheat again.

I said this because there are men and women whose actions are been manipulated as a result of spell or charm placed on them. For example, there was a man, any time the wife wasn't at home, the house helps will seduce and go to bed with him. After each occasion, the man will feel ashamed and terribly guilty of his action. 

At a point, the man went and told his pastor as well as his wife. The pastor came to the house and conducted prayer for the family and in the course of the prayer, the girl started confessing that her mother gave her something to put in the man's food. And that any time she had sex with the man that whatever demand she makes, that man must do it. She confessed that she had used that means to collect a substantial amount from the man which she sent to her mother in the village.

From the above story, if the man had not opened up, he would still be under the captive of the girl. He wasn't having affairs with the girl because he enjoyed it but because the girl had charmed him and taken him captive. That is why I counsel women before they take drastic action to end their marriage because their husband cheated on them, they should find out the cause why the man cheated. They should confirm that their husbands are not under the influence of a spell, charm or love potion.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

lemme guess, prince, you'll soon be wanting to sell us a spell remover?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> lemme guess, prince, you'll soon be wanting to sell us a spell remover?


:lol:


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

I just don't think its only about cheating. For me it shows so many other horrible traits that staying with the personal no matter how remorseful they are is not worth it. 

If it was just about having sex then that would be one thing but they lie. They plan to hurt you in a way they know clearly it will destroy you. They are taking a medical risk on you as well with out your knowledge. If you have children they are doing the same to them. All this still does not include the possibility of physical violence. Its clear to me most cheaters cheat down. They are not able to get the really good people because the really good people will have nothing to do with them. 

I personally just don't think another minute should be wasted on someone who is willing to do all that. If I could permanently block my kids from seeing there mother the rest of there lives it would have already been done. Her cheating not only destroyed them once she recently cheated again on the other loser with someone else and they had to see that first hand. Not to mention two weeks ago that loser beat her so bad she looked like she was married to mike tyson and he took her in for three rounds. My kids had to see her when she came back in town with that too. 

Everyone one has to make there own choice if they stay but I personally think if they do then the next time they get cheated on its on them. Just like it was on me when I gave my xW to many chances. 

Just my two cents. 

C


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## californian (Jan 28, 2010)

Lon said:


> the harshest realization about my ex W... was the sudden discovery that she was dependent on others for validation - until that moment I had always believed her to be a self-assured person.


You end up realizing that what you loved was and image and that that person never existed. It's harsh because of the invalidating effect it has on the past but it's also very liberating. Even though you were giving a lot of you to the person who was not what you thought she/he was, at least you _had _something to give and _were_ able to believe in something. Whatever _you did and were_ was real and is yours to keep without any regrets.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

californian said:


> You end up realizing that what you loved was and image and that that person never existed. It's harsh because of the invalidating effect it has on the past but it's also very liberating. Even though you were giving a lot of you to the person who was not what you thought she/he was, at least you _had _something to give and _were_ able to believe in something. Whatever _you did and were_ was real and is yours to keep without any regrets.


For me it shook my confidence in my ability to read people which I always took pride in...I felt stupid and a tremendous amount of shame...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

here's the crappy thing about human nature.

We aren't fixed. We change constantly. This is life. 

It also looks like deception as a strategy is part of intelligence.

Put these together -- change and deception -- and you can soon wake up one day next to somebody you don't even know.

Or even wake up and be somebody you don't even know, if you're not careful.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Sounds like a sci fi movie


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

But i m in one too

So i can understand 

A few years ago before things blow up i probably think all of you are crazy .

Now i know n understand . Sadly


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## californian (Jan 28, 2010)

Truthseeker1 said:


> For me it shook my confidence in my ability to read people which I always took pride in...I felt stupid and a tremendous amount of shame...


... and it's supposed to, it's a call for action if you will. It makes you reevaluate many assumptions you held and grow as a result. In the end you realize that there's no shame in being inexperienced and not knowing something. The shame is in not learning and doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result each time.


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## californian (Jan 28, 2010)

Truthseeker1 said:


> They are broken creatures who need serious help


More often than not "they" don't think they need help. It's their partners who need them to need it. This is why a lot of reconciliations don't work out in the long term despite the initial successes. Being caught (as indicated by the presence of D-Day as opposed to unsolicited self-confession) is a big indicator pointing the way it will go. A person can feel shame when caught, but the shame is not the same as remorse and is miles away from a self-motivated desire to change.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

californian said:


> More often than not "they" don't think they need help. It's their partners who need them to need it. This is why a lot of reconciliations don't work out in the long term despite the initial successes. Being caught (as indicated by the presence of D-Day as opposed to unsolicited self-confession) is a big indicator pointing the way it will go. *A person can feel shame when caught, but the shame is not the same as remorse and is miles away from a self-motivated desire to change.*


:iagree::iagree::iagree: Shame is definitely not the same thing as remorse. Many cheaters are more worried about their reputation and lifestyle being effected not the devastation they have caused their spouse. They were having a great time sneaking off and getting some strange and only when a light is shined on their activities does the fun stop. I think many cheaters who get caught would have gone on with their affairs for years and years. The attention is fun, the sex is fun and they get to have it all their family and something on the side.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

californian said:


> ... and it's supposed to, it's a call for action if you will. It makes you reevaluate many assumptions you held and grow as a result. In the end you realize that there's no shame in being inexperienced and not knowing something. *The shame is in not learning and doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result each time.*


I do not think I will ever be capable of that type of blind innocent love again - ever. And that is a good thing.


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## californian (Jan 28, 2010)

Truthseeker1 said:


> The attention is fun, the sex is fun and they get to have it all their family and something on the side.


Some of those people have personality disorders and there's a wonderful book that sheds the light on how they operate inside: Emotional Vampires by Albert Bernstein. Funny and enlightening.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

My XWW had two OM's that I know about. The good news is that she won't cheat on me ever again.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

workindad said:


> My XWW had two OM's that I know about. The good news is that she won't cheat on me ever again.


SMH..how someone can be so vile towards others and disrespectful of their own body boggles the mind...


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