# The Unlikelihood of True Remorse



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

The Unlikelihood of True Remorse

June 22, 2017 by @chumplady

There’s an article over at HuffPo on how a cheater should tell their spouse they’ve been having an affair. There’s some discussion on tell versus don’t tell. (I’m not going there — duh, TELL. Yes. Of course.) But what interested me about the interview with Dr. Scott Haltzmann is his peculiar warning that cheaters might “break down in sympathy.” Otherwise, I thought his advice on the whole was pretty good — be honest, expect much drama (short of physical violence), express remorse, commit fully to the marriage, and be immediately transparent.

And then I thought…. yes and no one does this.

Not one single cheater I have ever heard of in my years of reading on infidelity boards, or heard about here, or known in real life. Not one single cheating person has behaved that way. And certainly not right out of the starting gate.

I mean, I don’t want to rule them out. I want to believe they exist with the other unicorns in their fairy forest of “post-infidelity marital bliss.” (Read the article for that nugget.) I’ve just never seen one.

(read the rest here)


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Why would anyone even expect remorse? Affairs, even one night stands, have already been rationalized by the tortfeasor. You only feel remorseful, if at all, some time (months or years) later when you realize the risk you took and the pain you caused to the only person who really loves you. If your relationship was bad and unrewarding, you never feel remorseful and likely have pleasant memories of the affair and may even feel remorse that you didn't leave the bad relationship and get out while the gettin was good.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> Why would anyone even expect remorse? Affairs, even one night stands, have already been rationalized by the tortfeasor. You only feel remorseful, if at all, some time (months or years) later when you realize the risk you took and the pain you caused to the only person who really loves you. If your relationship was bad and unrewarding, you never feel remorseful and likely have pleasant memories of the affair and may even feel remorse that you didn't leave the bad relationship and get out while the gettin was good.


IMO many BS project "remorse" onto their WS when it is really their WS fearing the consequences of cheating...two different things entirely...frankly WS will never get it unless they too get cheated on..when a WS becomes a MH their measured tones about infidelity usually change since the shoe is on the other foot


----------



## gswfan (Apr 14, 2017)

Tears did on here


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

gswfan said:


> Tears did on here


Agree 100%...I agree with the title of the article remorse is unlikely but it is possible...In my view, _which I know is not shared by all_, there are levels of infidelity - while all are bad a ONS is a lesser offense than serial cheating or a LTA IMO.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Remorse only occurs when the cheater is found out!

And in a lot of cases, they are still not the least bit remorseful, no matter what!*


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *Remorse only occurs when the cheater is found out!
> 
> And in a lot of cases, they are still not the least bit remorseful, no matter what!*


I would guess true remorse takes time - if it comes at all. I think the feeling WSs have after dday is panic.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

arbitrator said:


> Remorse only occurs when the cheater is found out!


_True_ remorse doesn't require such prompting.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> _True_ remorse doesn't require such prompting.


Was your wife not remorseful then?


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

jld said:


> Was your wife not remorseful then?


By that metric?

Nope.

Look, it's exceedingly simple: there can be no true remorse without accountability, and there can be no accountability without honesty.

Additionally, anytime there's a D-Day that wasn't brought about by an unprompted confession (which seems to be very, very rare), there's been -- at least up until that point -- a glaring lack of honesty.

It's something that every BS who _knowingly_ opts for reconciliation is aware of.

It's part of the **** sandwich.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I would guess true remorse takes time - if it comes at all. I think the feeling WSs have after dday is panic.


*Panic, bewilderment, disgust, and utter nausea, all in that order!*


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *Panic, bewilderment, disgust, and utter nausea, all in that order!*


They dont want to lose their **** - meaning home, family, reputation - which the should have thought about before they decided to shag a stranger.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

If a person has sex once and immediately regrets it and comes clean to their spouse, takes full responsibility and then does all they can to rebuild the trust and be accountable, then I may believe that they are actually remorseful. If they went back and did it more than once, and were later found out, that is not remorse, that is being sorry you were found out. 
The times that a cheater is honest and tells their spouse are rare. The times that they have sex only once is rare. True remorse is rare.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> If a person has sex once and immediately regrets it and comes clean to their spouse, takes full responsibility and then does all they can to rebuild the trust and be accountable, then I may believe that they are actually remorseful. If they went back and did it more than once, and were later found out, that is not remorse, that is being sorry you were found out.
> The times that a cheater is honest and tells their spouse are rare. The times that they have sex only once is rare. True remorse is rare.


When the cheater goes back repeatedly to their AP for sex, sometimes for years, then please dont tell me you didnt enjoy what you were doing. You were dating while you were married that is what you were doing. I agree true remorse from a WS is rare but many BS think their WS is remorseful when what they are really doing is saying all the right things to keep what they have.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Here's one that did it! One ... out of all the disloyals here on TAM 

However, @Truthseeker1 having been at this for MANY years (even here on TAM for many years), and I will say that I can probably count on one hand the number of disloyal spouses who were truly repentant and did the work to transform themselves and their marriage...and by comparison there are literally THOUSANDS who either were not truly repentant, or who were remorseful but who didn't have the courage to examine themselves and face their own demons. 

I usually tell people that about 95% of disloyals are too self-centered and prideful to even admit they were wrong--sometimes the karma bus hits them and they eventually admit they were wrong, but sometimes not! Of the 5% that are left, I'd say about 4% are sorry--remorseful about the hurt they caused and the subsequent consequences--but too afraid to actually go to counseling, look themselves in the mirror, and face their demons. Real recovery means that you have to drag the stuff about yourself that you are "most afraid of" right out into the light and LOOK AT IT. Most folks try and sort of fake it, but when the doodoo hits the oscillator they bail and the marriage can't recover. 

And then there's that 1%. Like I said, having been here a long time, I've known a couple. Remember the Reconciliation thread that was gigantic? EI and B1. I think some of the mods have repentant disloyal spouses. BUT the title of this thread is entirely true: it is HIGHLY unlikely.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@Affaircare - you've always been an asset to the TAM community.


----------



## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> @Affaircare - you've always been an asset to the TAM community.


 I agree 100% , but "disloyals"? Let's call them what they are Cheaters. Sugar coating a word seems a bit dishonest here.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

If you look around most of the betrayed are so weak and codependent there is not much accountability or consequences. A lot just roll over and take it so they don't make anyone mad. No remorse needed


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> However, @Truthseeker1 having been at this for MANY years (even here on TAM for many years), and I will say that I can probably count on one hand the number of disloyal spouses who were truly repentant and did the work to transform themselves and their marriage...and by comparison there are literally THOUSANDS who either were not truly repentant, or who were remorseful but who didn't have the courage to examine themselves and face their own demons.
> 
> I usually tell people that about 95% of disloyals are too self-centered and prideful to even admit they were wrong--sometimes the karma bus hits them and they eventually admit they were wrong, but sometimes not! Of the 5% that are left, I'd say about 4% are sorry--remorseful about the hurt they caused and the subsequent consequences--but too afraid to actually go to counseling, look themselves in the mirror, and face their demons. Real recovery means that you have to drag the stuff about yourself that you are "most afraid of" right out into the light and LOOK AT IT. Most folks try and sort of fake it, but when the doodoo hits the oscillator they bail and the marriage can't recover.
> 
> And then there's that 1%. Like I said, having been here a long time, I've known a couple. Remember the Reconciliation thread that was gigantic? EI and B1. I think some of the mods have repentant disloyal spouses. BUT the title of this thread is entirely true: it is HIGHLY unlikely.


Using this logic shouldn't the default advice be empowerment to move on. Which is exactly why that is my default advice almost always. Just seems unfair to give people hope when there is a 5% chance.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Marc878 said:


> If you look around most of the betrayed are so weak and codependent there is not much accountability or consequences. A lot just roll over and take it so they don't make anyone mad. No remorse needed


Again why I wish we could empower them more and give them hope that there is better out there if they heal themselves and fix their codependency. I wish there was a site with just testimonials of people who left cheaters and how much better their lives are. Like some of the people who come back here and talk about.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Rubix Cubed said:


> I agree 100% , but "disloyals"? Let's call them what they are Cheaters. Sugar coating a word seems a bit dishonest here.


You can use the term 'Cheaters' if you like. I have no objection to that. I prefer naming a thing what it is--like we don't cheat, we commit adultery. But on my blog, @Rubix Cubed, I chose the terms Loyal and Disloyal to distinguish between the two spouses, and when I write here I just am consistent with my own blog. Some folks call them Betrayed and Wayward, which reminds me of someone who just wandered off the path somewhere, and thus I don't use it. I chose Loyal to mean that they were loyal to their vows and honored them--and disloyal because that's the spouse who dishonored their vows and was disloyal to their spouse (to whom their loyalty is due). 



sokillme said:


> Using this logic shouldn't the default advice be empowerment to move on. Which is exactly why that is my default advice almost always. Just seems unfair to give people hope when there is a 5% chance.


 @sokillme you are rapidly becoming one of my favorite people here on TAM, and let me tell you why: because you really THINK. You question everything and actually apply what you learn to yourself. I like your question, because what you're asking is: "If 99% of the time the disloyal spouse is too self-centered and prideful to even admit they were wrong OR they're too afraid to face their own demons, then shouldn't the default advice be to leave and/or end the marriage?" 

In real life the 1% is a VERY small percentage. In real life, I firmly believe that some disloyals don't recover because what they need is a firm kick in the head with some consequences of their choices, and many loyals are too afraid to do what is needed! Because in real life, even in a perfect marriage (and there is no such thing), what we don't face is that at any time the relationship could end...today, right now. Sometimes people go on a bender and just leave a perfect marriage. Sometimes there's a timebomb inside them from a FOO issue and the perfect storm comes together and it goes off. Sometimes they just get sick and die. Sometimes there's addictions or ...heavens the list is unending! So in real life, every day and every night we have relating to someone in an intimate way--physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually--is a GIFT! And it's a choice to be our independent selves and walk alongside another person. But they aren't ours, it's not guaranteed, and it could end any time. 

So given that fact, why would we advise people to marry? Why risk it?

It's because all of it is a choice. People get married knowing it could end any day. In the same way, I think people hold out hope that their spouse is in the 5% that will admit they were wrong...and MAYBE in the 1% that will really examine themselves and work on their inner demons. And my take is that there are probably more disloyals that could be helped into the 5% or the 1% if they were hearing good advise in their ears. Or if they heard the truth instead of those lies that other cheating "friends" tell them. Or if they heard that it's okay to admit they were wrong and show their children they can come back from doing the wrong thing! 

I also think that what really, REALLY needs to be done is for the loyal spouse to immediately say "I love you and I will give you every possibility to do the right thing, but as long as you are involved in an affair, you are NOT to be in this marital home, and not one marital cent will go to financing adultery. I can't stop you from choosing adultery but I can say here and now that I won't be part of it and neither will our children. I know you are committing adultery--and make no mistake that's what it is, not an affair or a rendezvous or some other pretty term. I also will not lie to cover up your adultery. If that's what you choose to do it will be out in the light of day, because I will not stoop to lying or being anything less than honest. Now you get to choose who YOU will be." 

So there it is--my strong advice would always be that in order to save your marriage you have to be willing to lose it and mean it. Yep give them a chance to be in the 5% or 1% but also plan as if they aren't. And if someone chooses to wait, I don't mind as long as they are not simultaneously condoning the adultery by playing the "pick me" game etc. I'd say this to everyone, I think: always be honest, and always do the right thing. And if they want to join you, they will...and if they don't you will have comfort in knowing you always did the right thing. You will recover from it--they may not.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> IMO many BS project "remorse" onto their WS when it is really their WS fearing the consequences of cheating...two different things entirely...frankly WS will never get it unless they too get cheated on..when a WS becomes a MH their measured tones about infidelity usually change since the shoe is on the other foot


LOL...funny you should mention that. There's an example of this very thing on another thread here on TAM where a guy left his wife after deciding to be with his 'soul mate' and the OW left her husband.

By gosh and by golly, here's the SURPRISE _no one_ was expecting - it seems his 'soul mate' doesn't feel the same loyalty to him that he has for her, and she's been quite busy over the years having fun on the side. Of course, he's now getting to feel what it's like to be betrayed, fooled, scammed, deceived and manipulated by a self-serving, cheating spouse. He's discovered it ain't so much 'fun' when you're being forced to swallow your *own* medicine.

I think you're right about most BS's projecting 'remorse' on their cheaters. I think a cheater will pretty much say and do anything they think will pacify their BS when the alternative is being raped in divorce court and losing half their assets and possibly having to adjust to a lesser standard of living. I also can't help but roll my eyes to the back of my head when a BS posts that her 'former' WS claims he is now 'sickened' by the very thought of his OW. Yeah, sure he is.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> When the cheater goes back repeatedly to their AP for sex, sometimes for years, then please dont tell me you didnt enjoy what you were doing. You were dating while you were married that is what you were doing. I agree true remorse from a WS is rare but many BS think their WS is remorseful when what they are really doing is saying all the right things to keep what they have.


 Yes and many go on to cheat again, which shows they are not really sorry.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Marc878 said:


> If you look around most of the betrayed are so weak and codependent there is not much accountability or consequences. A lot just roll over and take it so they don't make anyone mad. No remorse needed


This can be the case. I do think that any cheating spouse needs to be held strongly accountable for what they have done, and not just accepted back with little or no consequences. At the very least I would advise a 6-month separation and regular marriage counseling. Also, if they are together, complete openness with all electrical devices, the setting of strong boundaries with the opposoite sex, leaving their job if the affair partner works there, and finally being told that if this ever happens again they are out.

I am often amazed that some will stay and not be firm about the conditions.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> it ain't so much 'fun' when you're being forced to swallow your *own* medicine.
> 
> *I have zero sympathy for a cheater who gets cheated on end of story! ever read the MH stuff at SI? Boy do they not like the shoe being on the other foot. Cheaters who get cheated on are not real BSs IMO - just someone who finally sot some justice. Cheaters are perfectly willing to live with the injustice THEY committed but scream and moan when they are the "betrayed" spouse.*
> 
> I think you're right about most BS's projecting 'remorse' on their cheaters. I think a cheater will pretty much say and do anything they think will pacify their BS when the alternative is being raped in divorce court and losing half their assets and possibly having to adjust to a lesser standard of living. I also can't help but roll my eyes to the back of my head when a BS posts that her 'former' WS claims he is now 'sickened' by the very thought of his OW. Yeah, sure he is.


Ever read the WSs (most of them anyway) who post at other sites with cheater safe spaces? Not much remorse IMO - in fact some go back to rewrite their marital history to justify their own their own victimhood. That is a classic cheater deflection move. I think true remorse is rare with a cheater - I think they crave external validation constantly and find other ways to get it even if they never cheat again.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Yes and many go on to cheat again, which shows they are not really sorry.


Like I stated earlier many go on to continue to get external validation - perhaps in other ways if not an affair. True remorse is sadly rare IMO.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I am often amazed that some will stay and not be firm about the conditions.


What amazes me is some who stay after particularly nasy trangressions by their WS - multiple APs, LTA, no real remorse - but you see it everyday.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@Affaircare I think the term disloyal spouse is really accurate and not at all sugarcoating it like the term wayward does IMO. Thanks for the contribution.


----------



## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> _True_ remorse doesn't require such prompting.


I agree. I don't think remorse can ever be genuine if the cheater is caught, instead of the giving an unsolicited confession; and even then it's not a given. That's certainly even more so when the A is still current (as in most cases). To believe otherwise, is to believe a light switch can be turned on and brain molecules realigned in an instant. 

And I also agree that genuine remorse can develop over time. But the CS better understand the need to demonstrate remorse, even though they might not feel it at first.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

badmemory said:


> I agree. I don't think remorse can ever be genuine if the cheater is caught, instead of the giving an unsolicited confession; and even then it's not a given. That's certainly even more so when the A is still current (as in most cases). To believe otherwise, is to believe a light switch can be turned on and brain molecules realigned in an instant.
> 
> And I also agree that genuine remorse can develop over time. But I also believe *the CS better understand the need to demonstrate remorse, even though they might not feel it at first*.


Would that not be disingenuous?

How would further dishonesty build trust?

If my husband had an affair, I would at least want him to be honest about it. I can learn from his honesty, however painful.


----------



## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

jld said:


> Would that not be disingenuous?
> 
> How would further dishonesty build trust?
> 
> If my husband had an affair, I would at least want him to be honest about it. I can learn from his honesty, however painful.


I don't think there is anything disingenuous about the *actions* of demonstrating remorse. But that includes being honest about what they did and why. If the CS truly wants to save their marriage that's the least that they can do for their BS.

In most cases, it's not rational for a BS to expect the CS won't have residual feelings for the AP. But they should expect for the CS not to wear those feelings on their sleeves.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> So there it is--my strong advice would always be that in order to save your marriage you have to be willing to lose it and mean it. Yep give them a chance to be in the 5% or 1% but also plan as if they aren't. And if someone chooses to wait, I don't mind as long as they are not simultaneously condoning the adultery by playing the "pick me" game etc. I'd say this to everyone, I think: always be honest, and always do the right thing. And if they want to join you, they will...and if they don't you will have comfort in knowing you always did the right thing. You will recover from it--they may not.


To me most of the advice about R never takes into account the quality of life that happens after the R, even if the WS is remorseful. Reading the boards it doesn't seem like most BS have a high quality of life, at least when it comes to the emotional part of the relationship after the point of the affair. Even when the WS does everything right staying in a relationship with someone who can abuse you so badly doesn't seem healthy lots of times. I always use the analogy of physical violence, is it healthy for the women to stay with a reformed husband who has repeatedly humiliated and abused her? I say no, even if he is a changed man. This seems to be a kind of demeaning thing to do in a way. Why is emotional violence different. There are also the larger societal implications in all this and how it devalues loyalty and fidelity in my mind. But I digress. 

Granted there are times when I understand why people stay, money, kids, love, history. Fear is never a good reason though, it just perpetuates the abuse and powerlessness that the BS feels at the onset of the exposure. In my opinion and experience much of the misery that the BS feels has to do with the loss of agency in their own lives. Though I don't think many BS understand that. I think after they move on they grow to understand that, but it seems to be one of those you have to live through it to get it type things. Again this seems to me to work like getting your house robbed, for many they never feel safe in their house again, they need to move to get the feeling back, again in my opinion. But that is all it is opinion. 

The WS seem happy many times though. I often wonder when a WS writes that the marriage is better then it has ever been if the BS's perception would be the same. After all they are now married to someone who betrayed them in the most horrible way. Probably the person who hurt them more then anyone else in their lives in most cases. 

One thing that I have changed my mind about it that I think for most BS there is no convincing them to do otherwise, unfortunately. They are going to do what they are going to do no matter what I or anyone else says. Most come here and other places with their mind made up. The reaction of the WS will really determine if there is R or not. A lot of time it doesn't take much reaction, any tiny concession on the WS part and R is a go. This is sad to watch alot of the times as the WS is many cases just a horrible human being. Also you notice once the BS is no longer in shock or has lived in this new marriage they end up regretting their choice, and yes they can move on, but they never get the time back. 

Still I do believe it's good that there are people here steering them to the "best" way to R. Doesn't mean there shouldn't be someone their yelling GET OUT! as well though. Eventually the get out crowd may be the only choice left for the BS to follow. Many times the BS and WS are both broken and the dynamic was in place way before infidelity happened. The infidelity just the most dramatic manifestation of the brokenness and makes the whole thing worse.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

badmemory said:


> And I also agree that genuine remorse can develop over time. But the CS better understand the need to demonstrate remorse, even though they might not feel it at first.


IMO many cheaters, perhaps most, never truly get it. They simply cant unless they get cheated on. They dont have the mind movies, the extreme pain of betrayal, the loss of self esteem like the Bs does. They just dont. In terms of damage the WS gets the better end of the deal - they got to have their fun and in cases of R they got to keep their family as well. 



badmemory said:


> In most cases, it's not rational for a BS to expect the CS won't have residual feelings for the AP. But they should expect for the CS not to wear those feelings on their sleeves.


What many BSs have to deal wit, except in the case of a ONS perhaps, their WS enjoyed being wiht their AP and was more excited by that liaison. That is why I have zero compassion for a WS who becomes a BS - that is justice IMO.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> To me most of the advice about R never takes into account the quality of life that happens after the R, even if the WS is remorseful. Reading the boards it doesn't seem like most BS have a high quality of life, at least when it comes to the emotional part of the relationship after the point of the affair.
> 
> *Quality of life does seem to be a problem for many BSs. Every read some of the join dates on the boards? Some date back to the early 2000s. some ddays go back to the 1980s!! If you dday is 10, 20, 30 years ago and you are still posting - yeah I'm doubting you are happy and healed. You are simply limping through life. Even if you R what the hell have you won exactly? A spouse who is willing to lie, deceive and abuse you for the sake of some strange? *
> 
> ...


----------



## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

Okay...I will bite. I dont think remorse is black and white. I think remorse can be also fear, guilt... Its not a completely clear thing in my book. Its a broad meaning word. 

If you were to ask me, "Is my husband remorseful?" I would say yes. 
"Has he been remorseful from Dday on?" I would say yes. 

And here is why. Through the evidence of messages, to ***** 1 and ***** 2 he says he is ****ed up. They ask what is wrong with me. One goes so far as to stalk me and say im fat (At the time i was pregnant) but i am overweight. He did not accept those as reasons. At first he was quite conflicted with cheating on me. At the time he did not think he was cheating but he was close and he told ***** 2. Anyway.... Getting off track. He was in the process of realizing i did not deserve this. He even was thinking of divorcing me (I was pregnant at the time) Because he did not think i deserved this from him. But somehow waywards can wrap their heads around things, he saw my moodyness and stress with the children as unbearable. My strange attitude towards him because i sensed his wayward behavior without snooping. It was in that time that he entitled himself to the behavior...and he swing back and forth because of fear. Fear losing his children, (Because at that time he didnt want to be with me.....Period. I just didnt know.) But wanting to cheat, to engage in LOVE with others. Dday, he was instantly remorseful not for hurting me, but because he feared i would leave him. And thats when he realized he lost his best friend somewhere along the way and now his world was falling apart and he had no one to turn to. Im only lucky he didnt have an OW currently waiting in the wings. He left for Japan one month after Dday, and 2nd dday happened when he confessed on the first skype conversation we had. 

He didnt have me or the kids for four months. He was awful and wonderful and everywhere in between during that time. He flew me there for my birthday and took me to Hakone which was lovely. But it was a struggle. The three years since then we have been everywhere in between Divorce and Reconciliation. 

I think its just word play REMORSE, GUILT, REGRET....... They can feel many of those things at different times of the day. Yesterday for example I was VERY irritable with my husband and i wasn't feeling so pro reconciliation FOR PETTY reasons. 

Im sure he has a full gambit of feelings from Not any of those things to the full measure. Us humans are fickle creatures. its walking the walk that matters to me. What i am looking for is reason, Not reaction from negative emotion. Our emotions are unreliable. Takes sense to make heads or tails.


----------



## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> You can use the term 'Cheaters' if you like. I have no objection to that. I prefer naming a thing what it is--like we don't cheat, we commit adultery. But on my blog, @Rubix Cubed, I chose the terms Loyal and Disloyal to distinguish between the two spouses, and when I write here I just am consistent with my own blog. Some folks call them Betrayed and Wayward, which reminds me of someone who just wandered off the path somewhere, and thus I don't use it. I chose Loyal to mean that they were loyal to their vows and honored them--and disloyal because that's the spouse who dishonored their vows and was disloyal to their spouse (to whom their loyalty is due).


 @Affaircare,
Thank you for your explanation. I will posit though, that committing adultery IS cheating and being "disloyal" smacks of rooting for a different ball team than your spouse, but I don't want to get into word games. To each his own. I do thoroughly enjoy reading your posts.


----------



## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Yep, were all just a bunch of pieces of sh*t on the bottom of everyone's shoes that never really get what we did. Surely none of us feel like we'd be better off dead than thinking about it every single day wishing we could change it.

And of course if we DO get cheated on in return, in a much more planned, calculated, long, drawn out, soul stomping way, well, obviously we deserved it because we're subpar human beings who definitely deserve a million times more than what we gave. All the while KNOWING we deserved it but that doesn't override the pain, and now you don't just have the pain of what you did, but what they did to you now as well.

Never in my life have I been suicidal. Never have I wanted to disappear from the face of the earth more than I have since 4 years ago. Never have I felt like everyone in my little corner of the world would be better off without me because I just hurt people.

In turn for my one night stand, my husband had a full on physical affair that lasted close to 2 years. A cold, calculated, hidden, secret, drawn out physical and emotional affair. For 2 YEARS. The whole time while I'm doing everything I can to fix things, letting him walk all over me, doing any and everything I can, full transparency, kissing his ass, not going anywhere, doing anything, except what he wants and needs. And the whole time he's screwing his high school girlfriend - ADMITTEDLY because he knows it's the one thing that would destroy me, and he wanted to.

But my remorse? I guess it didn't exist.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

My wife is one of the five percent that has shown true remorse for her choices. My d-day was two and a half years after the affair ended so she had plenty of time to reach remorse. However, I believe she would have still reached true remorse with the gap in time. Maybe a bit slower then she did, but she would have reached true remorse. It is no secret that @Truthseeker1 has bashed my wife, but I say people can change and atone for their actions. I believe remorse and repentance can be achieved by a WS. All human beings have the capability to change, many changed just to become the WS they became. Does that mean they all are the worst people? 

I have seen many remorseful former waywards on TAM, EI, Losinghim, tears, somedaydigs wife, and I'm sure there are others. These just popped into my mind when I typed. Each of these posters in my opinion are exceptional human beings, because they "get it". They understand what their choices have brought upon their spouses. They understand only they are accountable for their choice, they don't blame shift to a different reason. They have owned their **** so to speak. 

I have gone through quite a bit from infidelity, I have become a better person and I'm in a better place now. My life has changed in many ways, I'm happy with many of the changes both my wife and I have made. It's a hard path to take, and a WS showing remorse isn't enough to save a marriage. It takes far more then just remorse, it takes and demands that you truly evaluate yourself and instill positive changes. It takes unfaltering commitment to your spouse, it takes brutal honesty. It's so much more then just remorse, but remorse is in my opinion what drives a WS to become that elite five percent.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> Yep, were all just a bunch of pieces of sh*t on the bottom of everyone's shoes that never really get what we did. Surely none of us feel like we'd be better off dead than thinking about it every single day wishing we could change it.
> 
> And of course if we DO get cheated on in return, in a much more planned, calculated, long, drawn out, soul stomping way, well, obviously we deserved it because we're subpar human beings who definitely deserve a million times more than what we gave. All the while KNOWING we deserved it but that doesn't override the pain, and now you don't just have the pain of what you did, but what they did to you now as well.
> 
> ...


Please get some help LH, your post are always so painful to read. Your relationship with him is toxic and until you move on your life is never going to get any better. I suspect it was toxic before the cheating even entered the picture. 

Now it's time to forgive yourself and move on. No ones life is irredeemable, don't use your guilt to keep you trapped. At the very least, you are even now, so no reason to stay for guilt's sake. Just look at your relationship, if you describe it as soul crushing there is no reason to stay in it.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

drifting on said:


> My wife is one of the five percent that has shown true remorse for her choices. My d-day was two and a half years after the affair ended so she had plenty of time to reach remorse. However, I believe she would have still reached true remorse with the gap in time. Maybe a bit slower then she did, but she would have reached true remorse. It is no secret that @Truthseeker1 has bashed my wife, but I say people can change and atone for their actions. I believe remorse and repentance can be achieved by a WS. All human beings have the capability to change, many changed just to become the WS they became. Does that mean they all are the worst people?
> 
> I have seen many remorseful former waywards on TAM, EI, Losinghim, tears, somedaydigs wife, and I'm sure there are others. These just popped into my mind when I typed. Each of these posters in my opinion are exceptional human beings, because they "get it". They understand what their choices have brought upon their spouses. They understand only they are accountable for their choice, they don't blame shift to a different reason. They have owned their **** so to speak.
> 
> I have gone through quite a bit from infidelity, I have become a better person and I'm in a better place now. My life has changed in many ways, I'm happy with many of the changes both my wife and I have made. It's a hard path to take, and a WS showing remorse isn't enough to save a marriage. It takes far more then just remorse, it takes and demands that you truly evaluate yourself and instill positive changes. It takes unfaltering commitment to your spouse, it takes brutal honesty. It's so much more then just remorse, but remorse is in my opinion what drives a WS to become that elite five percent.


Why did you stay? Did she immediately ask for forgiveness? Were you committed to R at that moment?


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> LOL...funny you should mention that. There's an example of this very thing on another thread here on TAM where a guy left his wife after deciding to be with his 'soul mate' and the OW left her husband.
> 
> By gosh and by golly, here's the SURPRISE _no one_ was expecting - it seems his 'soul mate' doesn't feel the same loyalty to him that he has for her, and she's been quite busy over the years having fun on the side. Of course, he's now getting to feel what it's like to be betrayed, fooled, scammed, deceived and manipulated by a self-serving, cheating spouse. He's discovered it ain't so much 'fun' when you're being forced to swallow your *own* medicine.
> 
> I think you're right about most BS's projecting 'remorse' on their cheaters. I think a cheater will pretty much say and do anything they think will pacify their BS when the alternative is being raped in divorce court and losing half their assets and possibly having to adjust to a lesser standard of living. I also can't help but roll my eyes to the back of my head when a BS posts that her 'former' WS claims he is now 'sickened' by the very thought of his OW. Yeah, sure he is.


That's not true. I told my husband about my affair before he had the chance to find out, and after 3 months of counselling or so, I too began to feel sickened- even triggered- by the thought of him. I would see certain jewelry like the items he wore and literally feel sick to my stomach. I'd see a guy at the mall who looked vaguely like him and I'd all but have a panic attack. I'd have nightmares about waking up next to him... or worse. Sometimes the WS is just as hurt as the BS, especially when there's an element of coercion or Stockholm Syndrome with the AP.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> Yep, were all just a bunch of pieces of sh*t on the bottom of everyone's shoes that never really get what we did. Surely none of us feel like we'd be better off dead than thinking about it every single day wishing we could change it.
> 
> And of course if we DO get cheated on in return, in a much more planned, calculated, long, drawn out, soul stomping way, well, obviously we deserved it because we're subpar human beings who definitely deserve a million times more than what we gave. All the while KNOWING we deserved it but that doesn't override the pain, and now you don't just have the pain of what you did, but what they did to you now as well.
> 
> ...


First of all you dont fall into the same category as the cheaters discussed. You didnt have a long term affair, serial cheat or trickle truth for 4 decades. If there is only a one percent its you. Plus i've mentioned this to you before - your hubands reactions as you described them were "strange" and i'm being nice. Your husband does not seem to care and I dont think its affair related. So please do not put yourself into the categories we are discussing.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Sometimes the WS is just as hurt as the BS, especially when there's an element of coercion or Stockholm Syndrome with the AP.


I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Any pain the WS might feel is self inflicted whereas the Bs is blindsided and served a sh!t sandwich they didnt make. The WS is NOT the victim when infidelity. I see this a lot from WSs on another message board and I disagree.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@drifting on - I'm on your side. I simply don't have any sympathy for your wife - it is reserved for you.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Why did you stay? Did she immediately ask for forgiveness? Were you committed to R at that moment?




I stayed for many reasons, jus as I could have left for many reasons, but she had taken many steps to improve herself. This had all been done by her before I committed to reconciliation, and during the time I was undecided she worked even harder. I can understand fully that posters here felt I should have divorced and never looked back, but I understand that people can change, feel true remorse, and I know that she is not some POS that shouldn't ever feel happy again. I had to look deep within myself and her as much as I could. In my opinion I took a great risk in staying, and I would take a great risk with someone new had I chosen to marry again. The best path for me was taking the path I chose, I know I'm ok if it works or doesn't, and that is the place that each betrayed needs to get to. Once the betrayed knows their ok, a huge burden gets lifted from their shoulders.
@sokillme, I know we have bantered and agreed on many threads here, and I think @Affaircare said it best in that you were becoming one of her favorite posters because you think. I will admit that many times I struggled in my opinions with you, because you made me think as well. Our opinions differ in some areas, doesn't mean either of us is wrong or right, but I respect your posts very much as they are well thought out. I hope you stay here for quite some time.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

@sokillme, I forgot to add this to my post. My wife has never once asked for forgiveness, never once asked for reconciliation, but she worked incredibly hard to earn both forgiveness and reconciliation.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> @drifting on - I'm on your side. I simply don't have any sympathy for your wife - it is reserved for you.




I completely understand what you are saying, and I meant no offense when I said you bashed my wife. I simply couldn't think of the word sympathy and instead chose bashed. You have been a big supporter and an even bigger help in my journey. Thank you for being such a great help.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

drifting on said:


> I completely understand what you are saying, and I meant no offense when I said you bashed my wife. I simply couldn't think of the word sympathy and instead chose bashed. You have been a big supporter and an even bigger help in my journey. Thank you for being such a great help.


I just want to see you happy. And I try to make it clear that I'm in your corner. I was not offended by your post I just wanted to be clear that I was on your side.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

drifting on said:


> I stayed for many reasons, jus as I could have left for many reasons, but she had taken many steps to improve herself. This had all been done by her before I committed to reconciliation, and during the time I was undecided she worked even harder. I can understand fully that posters here felt I should have divorced and never looked back, but I understand that people can change, feel true remorse, and I know that she is not some POS that shouldn't ever feel happy again. I had to look deep within myself and her as much as I could. In my opinion I took a great risk in staying, and I would take a great risk with someone new had I chosen to marry again. The best path for me was taking the path I chose, I know I'm ok if it works or doesn't, and that is the place that each betrayed needs to get to. Once the betrayed knows their ok, a huge burden gets lifted from their shoulders.
> 
> @sokillme, I know we have bantered and agreed on many threads here, and I think @Affaircare said it best in that you were becoming one of her favorite posters because you think. I will admit that many times I struggled in my opinions with you, because you made me think as well. Our opinions differ in some areas, doesn't mean either of us is wrong or right, but I respect your posts very much as they are well thought out. I hope you stay here for quite some time.


 @sokillme adds a lot to these discussions. i like his posts as well.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I just want to see you happy. And I try to make it clear that I'm in your corner. I was not offended by your post I just wanted to be clear that I was on your side.




I think this is what you have always wanted for me, and lately I have been much happier. You have expressed yourself in supporting me many times and it hasn't gone unnoticed. Thank you.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

drifting on said:


> @sokillme, I know we have bantered and agreed on many threads here, and I think @Affaircare said it best in that you were becoming one of her favorite posters because you think. I will admit that many times I struggled in my opinions with you, because you made me think as well. Our opinions differ in some areas, doesn't mean either of us is wrong or right, but I respect your posts very much as they are well thought out. I hope you stay here for quite some time.


I completely agree with this assessment. I have told you before I respect you and what you are doing. I have also said your story is very much hard for me because I have so many conflicting feelings about it. But it's your life and you seem at peace so who am I to say otherwise. I also mentioned that yours is a great example of forgiveness in the Christian sense, and being a Christian that being conflicted about it has caused me trouble. Anyway I am not above admitting that I have learned form you and @Affaircare and some others, even some here who are bullies. 

I ask questions because I want to understand I also thing it's good for people to read it. 

Continuing, how do you deal with the loss you must feel, or do you feel the loss? 
How did you view your marriage before this happened, how do you feel afterwords? 
How did you view marriage in general did you have the romantic notions such as soulmate and stuff like that? 

I ask some of this because when I read the SI/R posts I feel a lot of the questions are really "how do I live with this, who is this person, could they really do this to me, how can someone do this to someone they say the love". Those seem to be the questions that drive the seemed unrest on that board. I know that for me moving forward was accepting that the person I was with (I know it's not the same) was not who I thought, they basically lied to me and some people are capable of doing very awful things. I don't really believe most people change though so that leads me to the default move on. Even so I also know that feeling that way about them caused me to not want to be with them anymore, I lost the respect and the thing that made me fall in love with them. The change in my perception of who they were pretty much eroded my love. It took me a while to figure this out as for a few weeks I was morning the loss of the feeling of love and connection but still trying to salvage it if possible. But it was dead all the same. It would never come back for me. 

Once I figured that out it made it easier to stop talking to her. But I still felt the loss and the grieving took like 2 years. But I never had a feeling like I wanted her back, just like being emotionally hustled in a way. I learned that I thought I had something that probably doesn't exist. In a way I feel like this is true, because part of what I had was an innocence about love. It was nice and fairytale like but it wasn't healthy. As I right this I wonder if that is true. Is the right word healthy, or is it safe, or is it even realistic. Anyway I digress. 

So I guess another question is, is your thinking different then mind, or is it that you are capable of seeing a person for who they are at the moment and what they have done. I don't think I am capable of thinking that way. For me it would be more then just the awful things that were done it would be the type of person it is who I am with. Do you think the ones who struggle do so because they don't accept that this is who their WS is or is that they do and that is the conflict, how can I be with someone who could do that? I wonder if these questions are not at the heart of if R is possible or not.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I completely agree with this assessment. I have told you before I respect you and what you are doing. I have also said your story is very much hard for me because I have so many conflicting feelings about it. But it's your life and you seem at peace so who am I to say otherwise. I also mentioned that yours is a great example of forgiveness in the Christian sense, and being a Christian that being conflicted about it has caused me trouble. Anyway I am not above admitting that I have learned form you and @Affaircare and some others, even some here who are bullies.
> 
> I ask questions because I want to understand I also thing it's good for people to read it.
> 
> ...





Continuing, how do you deal with the loss you must feel, or do you feel the loss?

I am unsure of what loss you are referring to, but I imagine it is the loss of marriage and in ways my wife. It took some time to mourn the loss of both, my marriage was dead and my wife I didn't know anymore. It's a double hit that is very confusing to work through. I thought I knew my wife, I thought I knew who I lived and slept with, only to be shown otherwise. I struggled with how could she love me, yet then do this to me. 

The work my wife has put forth is amazing, I can only view it as people are capable of change. While I know she can cheat again, I don't think she will ever repeat those choices. She has become a stronger and better person through therapy, and thankfully in a way, a person that I am attracted to and want to be with. I wrote many posts explaining I can only hope that her change I will still love, as I change and become a better person also. 

As for my marriage, it died the day she became involved in her EA. Of course it became a PA, but the marriage was already dead. Instead of mourning a person I had to mourn what I thought was a marriage. The good memories were retained and the rest was simply mourned and moved past. We had to rebuild from nothing and begin this new marriage with s strong foundation. That meant we both looked at our faults of the marriage, we corrected them, then applied what we learned to the marriage. The marriage now is very good, we are attracted to each other, we communicate and wears vulnerable. It took some hard work, that there is no doubt, but we are both much more happier now. 


How did you view your marriage before this happened, how do you feel afterwords?

Before the affair the marriage I would now describe the marriage as bad. I took a lot for granted to be honest, nor did I communicate well with my wife. The same issue also said for her, then her terrible choices were made. I thought my telling her I loved her that she understood how deep my love was. In therapy I found that my communication with her had broken down, a divide formed, and we sort of grew apart. My distancing myself also led to her communicating poorly, so basically we were like roommates. It was very difficult for me to accept, but my therapist has shown me time and time again how we distanced ourselves from each other. With the changes we've made we haven't made this distance happen again. As I said above I'm much more happier now in my marriage.


How did you view marriage in general did you have the romantic notions such as soulmate and stuff like that?

I once believed in soulmates, but I don't anymore. I do believe that spouses while fallible and broken in their own ways, can be perfect for each other. Is that a soulmate? I'm unsure as I considered my wife and I soulmates. But if we were soulmates, how does one hurt the other so terribly? How does a soulmate just crush the soul of the other callously? After infidelity, I'm probably not the real romantic type anymore, but I can feel it coming back in the last six months. I still do some romantic things with my wife but only about half as much as I used to. Our intimacy and being romantic then is not a problem as it was before. That has improved tremendously over the last couple of years, although it is different. 


When infidelity strikes a marriage it causes two main reactions for the betrayed spouse, pain and utter disbelief. It's why I recommend that a betrayed spouse wait six months to make a decision. Your feet need to return to firm ground, you need to make a decision from a place of strength. You can't make this decision from the emotions of pain or disbelief. I also see that the WS changed, it just may not be who they are completely. I see many former waywards on this site, and I respect them, for they had the courage and determination to change. I do try to see the best in people, I guess with my job I cling to hope that society isn't as bad as I see it every day. 

I hope I answered your questions and if not just let me know.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

drifting on said:


> Continuing, how do you deal with the loss you must feel, or do you feel the loss?
> 
> I am unsure of what loss you are referring to.


So maybe that answer illuminates your thinking. The loss of what you thought you had, but maybe you don't think that way. I guess part of the way I have always looked at romantic relationships is the thinking of teamwork, but even more so, you and me against the world. So I think the betrayal was another way that it was just a bridge to far for me, as the effort for me to get that back would be harder then it would be to just start with someone else. I guess for me I don't believe a partner could think that way and cheat. My conclusion would be that even though they may say they think that way logic dictates and their actions show they don't. I guess it comes down to the lack of loyalty, how do you get over it. Loyalty is a word that isn't used enough in today's society.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Maybe because in my part time job it's me against the world, no backup most times I work. By that I mean, if I'm winning the fight help comes, if I'm not clearly winning the others aren't coming. By this I'm talking my hospital job, most other officers are afraid of physical confrontation. They shouldn't be there I agree, but HR doesn't care as long as no lawsuit is filed. I guess I'm used to fighting alone, and that my wife not having my back and the us against the world mentality never really hit me. Until now that is!! Lol!!! 

At this point I feel she will have my back, I'm trying to remember if she would have back prior and during the affair. I can't believe I never saw this in this way.


----------



## Ckone1800 (Jul 13, 2015)

sokillme said:


> So maybe that answer illuminates your thinking. The loss of what you thought you had, but maybe you don't think that way. I guess part of the way I have always looked at romantic relationships is the thinking of teamwork, but even more so, you and me against the world. So I think the betrayal was another way that it was just a bridge to far for me, as the effort for me to get that back would be harder then it would be to just start with someone else. I guess for me I don't believe a partner could think that way and cheat. My conclusion would be that even though they may say they think that way logic dictates and their actions show they don't. I guess it comes down to the lack of loyalty, how do you get over it. Loyalty is a word that isn't used enough in today's society.




I believe what you wrote here is profound, and exactly the ONLY reason why reconciliation has been successful, at least to this point, for me and my WW. 

We did NOT think about our relationship as a team or even us against the world. This is the topic of our conversations now when we reflect on the recent past and try to determine how we missed it all of these years. 

I equate it to not knowing what real love is, rather then we were just "in love" with being able to use each other. Sounds harsh, but true. It allows boundaries to not even enter the picture, as everything is compartmentalized and rationalized. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Sometimes the WS is just as hurt as the BS, especially when there's an element of coercion or Stockholm Syndrome with the AP.


Bull****.

My husband is truly remorseful. He wasn't at first. I'd say it took him about 8 months to truly GET IT.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> What amazes me is some who stay after particularly nasy trangressions by their WS - multiple APs, LTA, no real remorse - but you see it everyday.


Many stay because of fear. Fear of being alone. Fear of lack. Fear of what others will say and think. Fear of losing their marital status.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Bull****.
> 
> My husband is truly remorseful. He wasn't at first. I'd say it took him about 8 months to truly GET IT.


Did he come clean himself?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Ckone1800 said:


> I believe what you wrote here is profound, and exactly the ONLY reason why reconciliation has been successful, at least to this point, for me and my WW.
> 
> We did NOT think about our relationship as a team or even us against the world. This is the topic of our conversations now when we reflect on the recent past and try to determine how we missed it all of these years.
> 
> ...


The real love and in love thing is a profound thing to get. It's one of those eye openers. I get what you mean, I see it happen when you transition from the early spark of love, to the long slow fire after the initial excitement wheres off. Same kind of thing in my mind. But I think part of what you are saying is if you only think love is the initial kind of love you don't know there is a better out there and so you keep looking for the newness type of love. That enables you to make choices that are wrong because you think that you are no longer in love when the excitement goes away. Short term thinking in a way. 

Personally I don't think this is a good excuse to cheat but I do think understanding that love is more then the intensity of feelings is a good way to help yourself not cheat. I also think this can be a red flag to look for in a relationship. Short term thinking is a very serious red flag. 

Part of what I was getting is, I wonder if a successful R is really dependent on what your perception of what a marriage should be. For instance some people can have a sexually open marriage, even have other people in their marriage and it works for them. Not the same thing but in the same way I suspect some people can have a marriage that has some infidelity in it's history and they can still move forward. Maybe for them fidelity just isn't as much of a priority. This I get. The problem is the ones who it doesn't seem to work but yet they stay. 

So I wonder if their are certain key feelings about marriage that make it hard to get over infidelity. I think for me I have identified them. Safety or feeling safe in my own home is of paramount. I have posted about this before. Another is my perception of people and how character really does play a huge part of my attraction to my wife. It was really one of the first things that attracted me to her. Third would be the importance of loyalty to me. I am a person who have had friends who I met when I am 3. I only have a small group but I am fiercely loyal to them, but I expect the same. I am like a Corleone when it comes to loyalty. You betray me and you sleep with the fishes (figuratively). All those things together would just make it too hard. 

Now also I am very introspective (i.e. nuts), I post on board about this stuff for some crazy reason, but I wonder if not everyone is this introspective and if understanding this kind of thing would help.

So maybe the primary things that are important to you when it comes to your marriage can be used as a determining factor if R is viable. This being only after true remorse is shown from the WS which I think we are most in agreement that 5% seems about right. Anyway I am sure you are all sick of my babbling on about this. I am sick of myself blabbering about it.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Many stay because of fear. Fear of being alone. Fear of lack. Fear of what others will say and think. Fear of losing their marital status.


It could be - Ive read cases where the WS gave the Bs an STD, cheated for 3/4 of the marriage, screwed in the marital bed, cheated while they were near death and made post funeral plans with the AP. Even those who declare themselves "healed" and "reconciled" still admit to triggering years later. I dont want to hear a cheaters problems when they have given their BS lifetime scars. When is enough enough?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Bull****.
> 
> My husband is truly remorseful. He wasn't at first. I'd say it took him about 8 months to truly GET IT.


Man, she just came back and boom you are going to chase her away for another 3 months. :frown2:


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

drifting on said:


> Maybe because in my part time job it's me against the world, no backup most times I work. By that I mean, if I'm winning the fight help comes, if I'm not clearly winning the others aren't coming. By this I'm talking my hospital job, most other officers are afraid of physical confrontation. They shouldn't be there I agree, but HR doesn't care as long as no lawsuit is filed. I guess I'm used to fighting alone, and that my wife not having my back and the us against the world mentality never really hit me. Until now that is!! Lol!!!
> 
> At this point I feel she will have my back, I'm trying to remember if she would have back prior and during the affair. I can't believe I never saw this in this way.


Can you say what you do? It sounds like you are navy seal slash doctor. :|

In my mind cheating and especially what she did to you is the very definition of NOT having your back. This is like letting the lion loose in your own grounds. That being said you never thought about this until now! So this actually VERY illuminating to the discussion. Here I am and though my own perception this is like top 3 paramount of importance in marriage, and you never thought about it. NO WONDER, I have so much trouble understanding why you stay. 

Taking that further. What happens when one spouse feels like you and one feels like me. That sound like true recipe for disaster.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> That's not true. I told my husband about my affair before he had the chance to find out, and after 3 months of counselling or so, I too began to feel sickened- even triggered- by the thought of him. I would see certain jewelry like the items he wore and literally feel sick to my stomach. I'd see a guy at the mall who looked vaguely like him and I'd all but have a panic attack. I'd have nightmares about waking up next to him... or worse. Sometimes the WS is just as hurt as the BS, especially when there's an element of coercion or Stockholm Syndrome with the AP.


Why were you sick though Ella, was it because of what he did to you, or what you did to your husband? I think that would be the distinction.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Did he come clean himself?


Not in March when I first found out, but in November he did.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Man, she just came back and boom you are going to chase her away for another 3 months. :frown2:


Well, I don't want her to leave, but I call em like I see em.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Well, I don't want her to leave, but I call em like I see em.


I got nerve calling out someone for being blunt.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I got nerve calling out someone for being blunt.


LOL are you softening up on us?


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

sokillme said:


> The real love and in love thing is a profound thing to get. It's one of those eye openers. I get what you mean, I see it happen when you transition from the early spark of love, to the long slow fire after the initial excitement wheres off. Same kind of thing in my mind. But I think part of what you are saying is if you only think love is the initial kind of love you don't know there is a better out there and so you keep looking for the newness type of love. That enables you to make choices that are wrong because you think that you are no longer in love when the excitement goes away. Short term thinking in a way.


Speaking for myself, I was physically abused as a child and thus you can imagine--I did NOT know what real love was. With my first husband, I picked another abusive person (because that's what I knew) and in addition, he is bi-polar and BPD diagnosed. So not an easy ride at all! Nonetheless, I tend to be a one-man woman and stuck with him far longer than was healthy. He cheated on me and I went to counseling and worked through my FOO issues...and then I had to try to have a healthy marriage when I had never seen one. Thus I knew of the infatuation stage, and I knew of a more domestic feeling, but did not know about longer-term, very deep life-sharing intimacy feelings. 

As you know, @sokillme, I lost a child and then we found out as a couple we could never have anymore children, and that sent me into a tailspin. To dovetail off what @EmergingBuddhist said on another thread, my own identity and self-worth plummetted because I LOVE children and have seven! If I couldn't be a mom anymore, then what was I ? And right about that same time, someone showed interest in me that created something I did recognize: infatuation feelings. Imagine my surprise to realize I could still feel that "at my age"! 

So yeppers, I'd say it's often a combination of not knowing what love is in the family of origin (not seeing long-term commitment demonstrated) and also thinking that Hollywood romance = love ... which of course is actually just that infatuation. Anyone in a long-term relationship knows that infatuation does fade, but then a much deep, much hotter love smolders and takes over. 



> Personally I don't think this is a good excuse to cheat but I do think understanding that love is more then the intensity of feelings is a good way to help yourself not cheat. I also think this can be a red flag to look for in a relationship. Short term thinking is a very serious red flag.


I would agree. I would also say that for Christians, we make a covenant to our spouse before God, and the vow is to spend our life learning about our spouse, and acting in love toward them. Nowhere in there does it say "as long as you make me happy" or "as long as you meet my needs." The actual promise is that I promise to spend my life LOVING THEM. So honoring my promising means being that person, rather than being "woohoo, now I am not alone and I get my needs met" person. 

If someone does not understand commitment in that way--then that's a deal breaker to me.



> Part of what I was getting is, I wonder if a successful R is really dependent on what your perception of what a marriage should be. For instance some people can have a sexually open marriage, even have other people in their marriage and it works for them. Not the same thing but in the same way I suspect some people can have a marriage that has some infidelity in it's history and they can still move forward. Maybe for them fidelity just isn't as much of a priority. This I get. The problem is the ones who it doesn't seem to work but yet they stay.


So let me remind of one of the first times you and I talked. Back then you were VERY adamantly against all disloyal spouses and thought poorly (I'd say) of all disloyals ever in the history of the world! LOL It's okay--you had been recently hurt, I suspect. Anyway, one thing you asked me was enormously eye-opening "You mean you didn't know to put up protection around your marriage and your relationship?" 

To you, that seemed like something you just "knew to do" and you did it somewhat naturally. To me, that was such a foreign concept that I had to learn to do it! I had to barriers/protection in place during my first marriage, but then again I was a work-from-home mom who ran her own company and took care of the kids. In a very grown-up way I was "playing house" in an adult way. After my exH cheated on me (and by the way, he cheated several times, but I made excuses and denied it for a long time) we divorced and I was single, so I still didn't have barriers/protection in place other than that I knew I needed a more gentle man. I figured I was just across 30 and had 2 kids--who would want me? Then again, I had enough therapy to know I needed someone to who wasn't an abuser and I knew how to spot them, etc. I dated one man at a time (cuz I'm that way) and got to know them until it was clear it wasn't even a possibility of a match--then I moved on. So when I got to my new marriage, my spouse was a much better fit and a much wiser choice, but I still didn't think of putting protective measures in place. Why would I? It never occurred to me I'd need protection from anything, including myself! 

Needless to say, after my affair I realized that a major part of the reason it happened was due to LACK OF PROTECTION. I had failed to shield my marriage from myself and shield my partner from my issues! 

I bring all this up because you essentially asked if successful Reconciliation and Recovery require the two spouses to view marriage the same way. What I think is that marriage is a crucible, and in it, the two spouses grow up and change. The hope is that the two will be safe enough in the crucible to learn the things they need to learn to mature and become more healthy. But since most/many people come to marriage now with an insufficient definition of love (it's a feeling!) and an inadequate example of commitment (mom and dad each divorced 2 or 3 times), then it's no wonder people can't weather the storm! I think successful Reconciliation takes the one who committed the wrong to accept that their right/due recompense is losing it all, and accept building again from scratch---and the one who was wronged to accept that their partner is a faulty being just as they are, deserving of compassion and forgiveness. 



> So I wonder if their are certain key feelings about marriage that make it hard to get over infidelity. I think for me I have identified them. Safety or feeling safe in my own home is of paramount. I have posted about this before. Another is my perception of people and how character really does play a huge part of my attraction to my wife. It was really one of the first things that attracted me to her. Third would be the importance of loyalty to me. I am a person who have had friends who I met when I am 3. I only have a small group but I am fiercely loyal to them, but I expect the same. I am like a Corleone when it comes to loyalty. You betray me and you sleep with the fishes (figuratively). All those things together would just make it too hard.


 @sokillme, I think it's most reasonable to think of it like this: the consequence of adultery is losing the marriage. Period. End of discussion. That's the price. You play, you pay. I do not think my Dear Hubby thinks less of safety or feeling safe in his own home than you do, but I do think that he saw within me a person who could understand the true definition of commitment AND live it, and I think partially he may have seen it because I was able to take personal responsibility for my actions. I also do not think my Dear Hubby looks at me now and sees someone of low character--as he and I both need that as well to be respect each other and be drawn together. But for example, if your wife (who cheated on you) did not try to blameshift, called her actions what they were, took complete responsibility for her side of what she did, and then took the time to build herself and also took the time to rebuild the trust she had destroyed...if you could see that TYPE OF PERSON within her... I think some people literally can see that and say "I can accept this and get over it" and other people just can not. And based on Matthew 18, I believe the loyal spouse can morally make either choice. Finally, I don't think my Dear Hubby suspects my loyalty, but then again, that's because I agree that 100% of my affection, loyalty and companionship are for him alone! If I didn't understand that, or understood but disagreed, then I suspect he would not consider me loyal. 



> Now also I am very introspective (i.e. nuts), I post on board about this stuff for some crazy reason, but I wonder if not everyone is this introspective and if understanding this kind of thing would help.


You are introspective, but even since the time you first came here, you've grown considerably. I would say that not may are this introspective. The much larger majority--even of loyal spouses--just want to "get back to the way things were" even if that was just an illusion! They'd rather live in their denial than face the possibility that their marriage was a lie and what they thought they had was not based in reality. 

So I'm personally glad that you're introspective. I think it helps a lot of people to read conversations like this. 



> So maybe the primary things that are important to you when it comes to your marriage can be used as a determining factor if R is viable. This being only after true remorse is shown from the WS which I think we are most in agreement that 5% seems about right. Anyway I am sure you are all sick of my babbling on about this. I am sick of myself blabbering about it.


Speaking for myself, you're trying to figure it out, so keep blabbering.


----------



## katies (May 19, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> If a person has sex once and immediately regrets it and comes clean to their spouse, takes full responsibility and then does all they can to rebuild the trust and be accountable, then I may believe that they are actually remorseful.
> The times that a cheater is honest and tells their spouse are rare. The times that they have sex only once is rare. True remorse is rare.


wow, I guess I'm exceptionally rare! I did all this. Yep, we actually exist. Not only did I do this I stayed after he had his fun as well.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

katies said:


> wow, I guess I'm exceptionally rare! I did all this. Yep, we actually exist. Not only did I do this I stayed after he had his fun as well.


Yes you are rare - and I can see R with a ONS but the cases we are referring to are not people like you or losinghim - we are talking LTAs, decades of trickle truth, sex in the marital bed - I could go on. Its those cases where true remorse is doubtful. All affairs and waywards ar enot the same. Ive said that man times on TAM. I read of one case where the WS was cheating something like 8 of the 12 years of marriage - see the difference?


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

What I have discovered after many years of trying to process what I endured with my ex-wife, is that the very description of what transpired, what WORDS are used to say what happened; all mean distinctly different things to the one who cheats and the one who didn't cheat.

For example, my ex really saw no difference between telling me she only was with the guy once, and actually being with him for almost a decade and being intimate with him thousands of times. 

To her, if she had strayed, a bridge was crossed. Not a solid enough one to inform me and get out of the marriage. That would entail caring what happened to me, to be empathetic.

She saw not telling me the true situation meant she was protecting me from pain. My pain was the price for her pleasure--apparently.

To me? I was trying to repair our marriage from the damage caused by her cheating once. I would not have bothered if I knew it was ongoing, and so lengthy. There was no protection from pain. She gave me a serious STD from her cheating ways. I could have dealt with that far sooner, ya know?

To me, it is not a theoretical discussion or a philosophical stance.

It is a visceral reaction and practical self-protection before any discussion of why, who, stats, ethics.

To her? Oh, I didn't think about any of that. I didn't mean to hurt you (ergo, she didn't?)


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

michzz said:


> What I have discovered after many years of trying to process what I endured with my ex-wife, is that the very description of what transpired, what WORDS are used to say what happened; all mean distinctly different things to the one who cheats and the one who cheats.
> 
> For example, my ex really saw no difference between telling me she only was with the guy once, and actually being with him for almost a decade and being intimate with him thousands of times.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing you make some great points. There are folks on the other boards who are in a similar situation - STD, LTA and yet the tell us what great spouses they have. WTF? A spouse who has a LTA, gives you an STD will never be a great spouse. Too much damage done. I feel those folks twist themselve sinto a pretzel to justify staying wiht their WS. 

You stated it perfectly_* the BS's pain is the price of the WS's pleasure*_. Perfect. That is the unvarnished truth. Your WS paid for their pleasure with your pain and nothing can change that.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> Speaking for myself, you're trying to figure it out, so keep blabbering.


So in keeping in that fashion I want to ask you questions but forgive me if this seems harsh, but hell I'm harsh. If they are too difficult you can just ignore them. None of these questions mean I don't think you changed. Also man I write a lot of stuff on these boards. 

First off yours was and EA right not a PA? 

How long did it last?

I can see how a EA can happen in the sense that it can slowly happen if you are not aware of it, if you have poor boundaries so maybe this is it. How deep did it get was it at the I love you stage? Still at the point were you say I love you though something should click in even the most obtuse. 

So overall your story doesn't make a lot of sense to me. You protected yourself with the guy who treated you bad, but not with the one who was the good one? Expand on that, what changed to change your mind about that? How can you get it the first time and then not get it with the better guy? You understand that this falls right along the lines of the stereotype of the nice guy getting taken advantage of? The idea that it doesn't pay to be nice. Was it because he was so nice so you didn't have any fear?

Were you really in love with your husband at the point you cheated on him? I mean the love as you understand it now?

You knew what it felt like to be cheated on yet you still did it to someone else. How did you justify that when you knew how it felt? I get that you were unhappy but didn't you think how he was going to feel about it? Did you choose not to think of him? Did you think you would never get caught? 

I can see the fertility thing but you do have kids it's not like you couldn't have any. Was this more about the loss of your youth typical of a mid life crisis? 

It sounds like you had a typical mid life crisis type affair, helped along by your grief at your fertility issue. Also in the other thread you mentioned he didn't talk to you enough and that kind of kicked it off as well. Your story to me is actually more scary then most because none of your reasons seem very unusual, they seem almost ordinary life disappointments. Concessions even. It's hard for me to think that you didn't know better and did it anyway? 

Where you a Christian when you did it? What of your vows before God? It's a 10 commandment so you have to know it's wrong. Again how did you justify this? It's like Christianity 101. Was this commandment closer to how Christians think of do not lie, which is I suspect that one is not followed as strictly as say do not kill. I would think adultery is right up there with the killing and stuff, which again I know from a Christian point of view is the wrong way to think about it. Maybe you are one of those Christians who don't think any of the law applies. 

Were you a person who believed in loyalty before this happened? How does that work, is that just not something that is even a consideration? Was your husband not loyal to you? Did you consider yourself a loyal person?

One thing I have to reject is the idea of having a poor childhood leads to this, what accounts for the ones who don't and have a bad childhood? Both my parents were married 3 times. Dad cheated lots. My stepfather verbally abused my Mom in front of me all the time. I don't yell at my wife, I never cheated. Haven't gotten divorced yet. I just can't accept that one. 

It wasn't some life lesson that taught me not to do that, I just want to be decent to people. That is the basic reason. I don't want to cause people pain. I don't accept that my needs are more important then other peoples feelings in this respect. Now is this just something I was born with? I don't remember ever being taught that. I am sure everyone would say the same thing even lots of cheaters? (I am not bragging here, I am ****ty in other ways.)

So where does it go wrong? Some people just have mental illness and some people are just bad seeds, but what about the other people who were basically decent until they are not? The ones who can't believe what they did even after they did it over and over for months? That kind of stuff is dumbfounding. Part of me thinks maybe it's genetic, which again is scary to me, and probably a part of why I am so interested in this. See my quote about my father below. 

I don't get it, I don't think I ever will get it. I do get the temptation though.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katies said:


> wow, I guess I'm exceptionally rare! I did all this. Yep, we actually exist. Not only did I do this I stayed after he had his fun as well.


Why? Why did you do it? Did you also confess?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

> I think it's most reasonable to think of it like this: the consequence of adultery is losing the marriage. Period. End of discussion. That's the price. You play, you pay. I do not think my Dear Hubby thinks less of safety or feeling safe in his own home than you do, but I do think that he saw within me a person who could understand the true definition of commitment AND live it, and I think partially he may have seen it because I was able to take personal responsibility for my actions. I also do not think my Dear Hubby looks at me now and sees someone of low character--as he and I both need that as well to be respect each other and be drawn together. But for example, if your wife (who cheated on you) did not try to blameshift, called her actions what they were, took complete responsibility for her side of what she did, and then took the time to build herself and also took the time to rebuild the trust she had destroyed...if you could see that TYPE OF PERSON within her... I think some people literally can see that and say "I can accept this and get over it" and other people just can not. And based on Matthew 18, I believe the loyal spouse can morally make either choice. Finally, I don't think my Dear Hubby suspects my loyalty, but then again, that's because I agree that 100% of my affection, loyalty and companionship are for him alone! If I didn't understand that, or understood but disagreed, then I suspect he would not consider me loyal.


Do you think he ever doubts his judgment? Like I am sure he didn't think you would cheat the first time. That would be an issue for me, if I didn't know the first time how could I be sure now. Have you asked him this?

You mean this figuratively right? My wife didn't cheat on me. I wrote a pretty good synapse of what happened to me on another thread. I really don't have any pain from that anymore. If my wife were to cheat I would ghost, wouldn't be a thought. Reading these boards have convinced me of that fact more then anything else about reading these boards. Life is too short and I don't have it in me. She could have the heart of Donna Reed from It's a Wonderful Life, and look like Sophia Loren. Not sticking around. 



> I bring all this up because you essentially asked if successful Reconciliation and Recovery require the two spouses to view marriage the same way.


I think marriage in general should be talked about before and during the marriage. "This is what I think our marriage is. This is who you are to me." Stuff like that. For instance the bit about having each others back. My wife and I talked about that is some fashion before we got married. I am surprised that this isn't the norm. Like don't you want to talk about the deal you are accepting?



> Back then you were VERY adamantly against all disloyal spouses and thought poorly (I'd say) of all disloyals ever in the history of the world!


I think here I am getting a bad rap. Some adulterers (I like that better) are just *******s and should be thought of as such. But I feel bad for some, and I believe all are worthy of forgiveness if they truly change. Though as a Christian I guess I am supposed to forgive either way right? Not sure how that works. Besides that anyone who has come on here talking about what they did with a true sense of regret, read any of my posts to them, I am probably less harsh with them than lots of people. I really try hard to go about it following the "go and sin no more" route. I absolutely believe that committing adultery should NOT automatically bar you from starting over if you change, and I believe if motivated enough people can change. It's just that I don't think a lot of people have it in them to do so. 

My father who is like my best friend and who I respect in a lot of other ways was a cheater. I don't hate adulterers. I hate adultery, and I hate when it is justified. I hate it when those who do it are cold to the pain they cause. Those people need to be called out. I respect you and a few other on here and SI who have done this and changed, maybe even more so for your change. carpenoctem for instance on SI, sometimes I wonder if he is really me in my sleep.

I also don't believe in sugar coating what it is that was done to the BS. I think this is what some people have a problem with me and some others on here. I think it is important to say exactly what happened, not to gloss it up so it isn't as painful. A few of us on here are like that. It's better to expose it like cancer. 


Maybe this is where you say I have grown. I used to say that R is a bad idea always, now I say most of the time, but you damn sure ain't going to know with only a few months of I'm sorrys. It's also much harder it seems that is presented by some. 

Actually I think you and I are pretty much on the same page when it comes to this. Maybe 5% are truly remorseful. I just don't think remorse should be the primary reason to R though. It really depends on the BS. What the quality of life will be. In a sense this his more fare to the WS as well. How many threads are there from men who say they are 5, 10 , 15 years out and they still can't get over it and are divorcing. In such cases both the WS and the BS wasted all that time. Both people end up stuck in this broken marriage, for the WS I guess you could say the deserve it, but still.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Can you say what you do? It sounds like you are navy seal slash doctor. :|
> 
> In my mind cheating and especially what she did to you is the very definition of NOT having your back. This is like letting the lion loose in your own grounds. That being said you never thought about this until now! So this actually VERY illuminating to the discussion. Here I am and though my own perception this is like top 3 paramount of importance in marriage, and you never thought about it. NO WONDER, I have so much trouble understanding why you stay.
> 
> Taking that further. What happens when one spouse feels like you and one feels like me. That sound like true recipe for disaster.




I think @ckone said it best, which is why I said I feel as if my wife has my back now. I work part time in a hospital, I work in the ER only, and I was best qualified as security. My full time job is in law enforcement, for a much bigger city. Up until now I haven't actually said what my occupation is, I always felt it made this to personal on the Internet. But because I think it pertains to how I have felt over the years, I just accepted this as status quo. 

My part time job I take many insults, rent a cop, door knob shaker, wanna be, and so on. Also many people figure you are the dumbest person on earth to work security. I'm either threatened or fight someone each day, this also occurs at my full time job as well. My outlook on society prior to the affair was terrible, what I have gone through most can't imagine. I've seen homicides, stabbing a, gun shots, auto accidents, riots, dead babies, a baby cut from the womb while the mother was still alive, entire families killed by jealous lovers, persons hit by trains, suicides, and whatever else you can imagine. I've seen people killed for a debt of less then a hundred dollars. I've made phone calls to parents that their children died in an accident or suicide. I have endured so many atrocities on human life, when my wife cheated I completely broke. 

Being alone at work is the normal for me, I prefer it that way, I don't want to think backup is coming if it's not. So my wife not having my back was just added status quo. I still don't have backup, I'm fine with it as I am confident in my ground fighting skills, and confident enough to know I may lose. My goal at either job I'm at is that I go home after my shift ends, and for over twenty years this has been true. 

@sokillme, you have given me much to digest, I thank you for that. You may be on to something that can complete my reconciliation. As I said earlier, my wife has my back now just as I have hers, and maybe that is why I have been feeling so much happier as of late. As I think I see my wife and I are more united as ever, maybe now I will start to see backup as a good thing instead of it's not coming. I will tell you this, I had thought of quitting the hospital, but the doctors and nurses talked me out of it, they said they felt safest when I was working.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

@sokillme, I don't think it's a recipe for disaster as neither my wife nor myself think like you. I'm not trying to say your ignorant, we just disagree on some things and agree on some things. So for one of us to begin thinking as you do won't probably happen. My wife and I are on the same page and have the same beliefs. Wish it had always been that way but it wasn't. With that said I think my wife and I are very happy for where we are at.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

drifting on said:


> @sokillme, I don't think it's a recipe for disaster as neither my wife nor myself think like you. I'm not trying to say your ignorant, we just disagree on some things and agree on some things. So for one of us to begin thinking as you do won't probably happen. My wife and I are on the same page and have the same beliefs. Wish it had always been that way but it wasn't. With that said I think my wife and I are very happy for where we are at.


I don't think I made my point about that well. My point being, it would be hard for one souse to see marriage one way and have the expectations of their spouse having their back and the other having no idea about that. Don't think that will work out well. I always thought that having your partner's back was implied.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

drifting on said:


> I think @ckone said it best, which is why I said I feel as if my wife has my back now. I work part time in a hospital, I work in the ER only, and I was best qualified as security. My full time job is in law enforcement, for a much bigger city. Up until now I haven't actually said what my occupation is, I always felt it made this to personal on the Internet. But because I think it pertains to how I have felt over the years, I just accepted this as status quo.
> 
> My part time job I take many insults, rent a cop, door knob shaker, wanna be, and so on. Also many people figure you are the dumbest person on earth to work security. I'm either threatened or fight someone each day, this also occurs at my full time job as well. My outlook on society prior to the affair was terrible, what I have gone through most can't imagine. I've seen homicides, stabbing a, gun shots, auto accidents, riots, dead babies, a baby cut from the womb while the mother was still alive, entire families killed by jealous lovers, persons hit by trains, suicides, and whatever else you can imagine. I've seen people killed for a debt of less then a hundred dollars. I've made phone calls to parents that their children died in an accident or suicide. I have endured so many atrocities on human life, when my wife cheated I completely broke.
> 
> ...


You work in a Big City I take it. 

You should talk to her about having your back and see what her thoughts are. It's actually kind of a nice thing, unless you get stabbed in the back.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@sokillme, 

I'll reply to all your questions, but you asked a MANY! That will be a gigantic post, and this thread is about the unlikelyhood of true remorse. I don't want to threadjack @Truthseeker1 's thread. 

So if you think it's pertinent to the discussion, @Truthseeker1, I'll continue here and break up the questions like into 3-4 in one post. On the other hand, if you think it would be better on another thread, let's start a new one @sokillme, and just start the first post with your "bunch of questions". M'kay?

BTW, I want to state right now that my very first, original response is feeling deeply embarrassed by your questions, because I know what I did and telling you the truth may help you "figure it out" or at least understand a portion, but it I will feel ashamed of how I thought and behaved. It's just the way it is--I behaved poorly.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> @sokillme,
> 
> I'll reply to all your questions, but you asked a MANY! That will be a gigantic post, and this thread is about the unlikelyhood of true remorse. I don't want to threadjack @Truthseeker1 's thread.
> 
> ...


Here you go my friend.

You don't have to answer if you don't want. I am not trying to make you feel bad. However, feeling ashamed is good it shows recognition. In the same respect if you are forgiven than part of that is accepting the gift right?


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

sokillme said:


> Here you go my friend.
> 
> You don't have to answer if you don't want. I am not trying to make you feel bad. However, feeling ashamed is good it shows recognition. In the same respect if you are forgiven than part of that is accepting the gift right?


Indeed!

In my personal instance, I am making the choice to answer because I think it will help anyone who happens to read by at least being a thought provoking conversation. I'm also choosing to realize that what I did in the past is just that--it's over and has been for a long time. It's forgiven and that means the weapon is laid down. 

The weird thing is that writing here (as I do) it's pretty much always remembered and picked at just a little. I'm sure you feel the same when you speak openly about the hurt you endured.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Why were you sick though Ella, was it because of what he did to you, or what you did to your husband? I think that would be the distinction.


What I'm trying to get people to see here is the distinction doesn't matter because you can't judge a book by its cover. Not all cheaters feel less or no pain, because some cheaters were abused by their APs. Not all cheaters feel less or no pain because in some cases the BS was cheating too. Not all cheaters feel less or no pain because in some cases the BS was abusive and the WS is a chronic codependent who had to ensure they had another relationship before they could leave.

Believe it or not, all of these things hurt a _lot_. Being abused by someone you trusted hurts. It even hurts cheaters. Feeling trapped and afraid to leave hurts. It even hurts cheaters. Being cheated on hurts. It even hurts cheaters. I'm tried of people assuming that _all_ cheaters cannot hurt because they are the perpetrators, because that's simply not true. It's a misrepresentation. Cheaters are not a monolith. It's a stereotype that all adulterers are heartless demons. Like most stereotypes, it's not accurate. Look beyond the stereotype and you might see circumstances that humanize these people and make them worthy of support.

The day people stop generalizing adulterers is the day my work here is done. A hurt spouse does not have to stay with or even care about the spouse who hurt them, but in the wider world, outside of their relationship, some empathy and understanding is called for. I'm not arguing that adultery isn't wrong. I'm saying even people who are wrong need compassion and understanding. Not approval; just understanding.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> What I'm trying to get people to see here is the distinction doesn't matter because you can't judge a book by its cover. Not all cheaters feel less or no pain, because some cheaters were abused by their APs. Not all cheaters feel less or no pain because in some cases the BS was cheating too. Not all cheaters feel less or no pain because in some cases the BS was abusive and the WS is a chronic codependent who had to ensure they had another relationship before they could leave.
> 
> Believe it or not, all of these things hurt a _lot_. Being abused by someone you trusted hurts. It even hurts cheaters. Feeling trapped and afraid to leave hurts. It even hurts cheaters. Being cheated on hurts. It even hurts cheaters. I'm tried of people assuming that _all_ cheaters cannot hurt because they are the perpetrators, because that's simply not true. It's a misrepresentation. Cheaters are not a monolith. It's a stereotype that all adulterers are heartless demons. Like most stereotypes, it's not accurate. Look beyond the stereotype and you might see circumstances that humanize these people and make them worthy of support.
> 
> The day people stop generalizing adulterers is the day my work here is done. A hurt spouse does not have to stay with or even care about the spouse who hurt them, but in the wider world, outside of their relationship, some empathy and understanding is called for. I'm not arguing that adultery isn't wrong. I'm saying even people who are wrong need compassion and understanding. Not approval; just understanding.


This reminds me of a quote by Esther Perel:

_Betrayal in a relationship comes in many forms. There are many ways that we betray our partner: with contempt, with neglect, with indifference, with violence. Sexual betrayal is only one way to hurt a partner. In other words, the victim of an affair is not always the victim of the marriage._


----------



## katies (May 19, 2015)

sokillme said:


> Why? Why did you do it? Did you also confess?


Why did I confess? Because he deserved to know who he was married to and I wanted to be an authentic person.
Why did I have an affair? Some odd sense of entitlement. and a crazy need for validation.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Believe it or not, all of these things hurt a _lot_. Being abused by someone you trusted hurts. It even hurts cheaters. Feeling trapped and afraid to leave hurts. It even hurts cheaters. Being cheated on hurts. It even hurts cheaters. I'm tried of people assuming that _all_ cheaters cannot hurt because they are the perpetrators, because that's simply not true. It's a misrepresentation. Cheaters are not a monolith. It's a stereotype that all adulterers are heartless demons. Like most stereotypes, it's not accurate. Look beyond the stereotype and you might see circumstances that humanize these people and make them worthy of support.


You make a valid point or two but once again I must respectfully disagree with the bulk of your worldview. A WS's misery post-A is brought on by their own actions. Period. No cheaters are not a monolith - since there are different levels of cheating but they are not the victim at any level. Physical abuse in any relationship is as bad as cheating so in the cases where a BS is a physical abuser I have zero sympathy for them if their spouse cheats. But the bulk of the cases are about the WS wanting more - ego kibbles, attention, sex etc. they are not trapped, beaten or coerced. They gave themselves to their AP of their own free will because it felt good and that is the bottom line. So forgive me if I dont want to hear a WS p!ss and moan after dday about how miserable their life is or how hard R is or how exhausted they are. I say suck it up - you weren't too tired to make time to see your lover, weren't too tired to eat up those ego kibbles - now you are paying the price. 

What I have noticed with many WSs is their race to be the victims too. It is astounding. My theory is for many WSs it is always about them and always will be. They lie, cheat and destroy their family and now they are the victim. Its like the old joke of the kid who killed his parents but pleaded with the judge for mercy since he was now an orphan. They create ther mess and now want to be the victims of the very mess they created. Uh - no - not by a long shot.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@Affaircare - please continue to post on this thread. Your posts are always well thought out and insightful.


----------



## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

Truthseeker1 said:


> You make a valid point or two but once again I must respectfully disagree with the bulk of your worldview. A WS's misery post-A is brought on by their own actions. Period. No cheaters are not a monolith - since there are different levels of cheating but they are not the victim at any level. Physical abuse in any relationship is as bad as cheating so in the cases where a BS is a physical abuser I have zero sympathy for them if their spouse cheats. But the bulk of the cases are about the WS wanting more - ego kibbles, attention, sex etc. they are not trapped, beaten or coerced. They gave themselves to their AP of their own free will because it felt good and that is the bottom line. So forgive me if I dont want to hear a WS p!ss and moan after dday about how miserable their life is or how hard R is or how exhausted they are. I say suck it up - you weren't too tired to make time to see your lover, weren't too tired to eat up those ego kibbles - now you are paying the price.
> 
> What I have noticed with many WSs is their race to be the victims too. It is astounding. My theory is for many WSs it is always about them and always will be. They lie, cheat and destroy their family and now they are the victim. Its like the old joke of the kid who killed his parents but pleaded with the judge for mercy since he was now an orphan. They create ther mess and now want to be the victims of the very mess they created. Uh - no - not by a long shot.


I agree 100% with what you said. I don't know why, i'm a regular reader-non poster on TAM but something about this thread and some of the replies tick me off. As someone who has been on both side, i have to say that WS's pain is not even 10% compared to the loyal person.

Look beyond stereotypes and i still find a bunch of selfish liars. I'm sorry if that's to rough to some posters but as a former cheater myself it's important for to slash through argument like this in order for me to form a healthy relationship. In my opinion, comparing loyal's and disloyal's pain is like comparing cold and cancer. I will support ex-cheaters (like myself) who is trying to move forward, but not one still in "we are victims too" crowd.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Do you think he ever doubts his judgment? Like I am sure he didn't think you would cheat the first time. That would be an issue for me, if I didn't know the first time how could I be sure now. Have you asked him this?
> 
> You mean this figuratively right? My wife didn't cheat on me. I wrote a pretty good synapse of what happened to me on another thread. I really don't have any pain from that anymore. If my wife were to cheat I would ghost, wouldn't be a thought. Reading these boards have convinced me of that fact more then anything else about reading these boards. Life is too short and I don't have it in me. She could have the heart of Donna Reed from It's a Wonderful Life, and look like Sophia Loren. Not sticking around.
> 
> ...


I am also a Christian and believe strongly in forgiveness. I too had a dad who cheated, he had an affair for years, also grandparents and 3 sisters in law who cheated. Also, my husbands first wife cheated. There is no excuse ever for adultery in my opinion, and in my experience, adulterers rarely come clean and repent on their own. They also care little it seems for ruining others lives even if its their own children. Its a very serious sin and the consequences are far reaching.

For me the marriage would be over it it happened. The trust would be gone and I dounbt I could ever have sex again with a man who did this to me. Yes I would forgive eventually, but that wont change what has happened.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

sokillme said:


> You work in a Big City I take it.
> 
> You should talk to her about having your back and see what her thoughts are. It's actually kind of a nice thing, unless you get stabbed in the back.





Sokillme, during reconciliation this has been addressed, in ways prior to the affair we both faltered on this. Some of the toxic I brought to the marriage was that she felt alone. My wife had stated that even though it was never discussed, she felt the marriage was over. Initially I was shocked by this, but therapy has basically proven my marriage was in a bad place due to both of our shortcomings. So in ways I guess my wife felt that I did not have her back. Had someone wronged her I would have protected her, but having ones back goes far deeper then that. 

The way it is now we are united and have each other's backs. We are far more open and communicating much healthier then before. In turn we are there for each other more, we have the same goals I what we want for outlet marriage. The affair did stab me in the back and in turn caused so much pain for me, and in ways I stabbed my wife in the back causing pain to her. As we go through reconciliation I had a very difficult time acknowledging my wrongs in the marriage because she had cheated. The first two months I refused almost, to accept any blame whatsoever for the marriage, it took time to work through the pain. I'm not perfect by a long shot, I am fallible and I myself failed in my marriage. My wife has given me a second chance so to speak also, she knows I'm also capable of hurting her like I had in the past too. True, what I did wasn't as severe as cheating and deception with the paternity of the boys, but who is to say I didn't cause the same pain to my wife the way I was during the marriage? 

My point is this, I made mistakes and bad choices, so did my wife, and therapy has changed each of us. We love each other deeply and both have committed to the path we are currently on. Does she or even myself deserve sympathy from TAM? I don't know truthfully, all I know is two broken people are healing individually and healing a marriage as a team. I guess that is what everyone in reconciliation hopes to accomplish so they can move forward towards peace and happiness. Just my opinion.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I am also a Christian and believe strongly in forgiveness. I too had a dad who cheated, he had an affair for years, also grandparents and 3 sisters in law who cheated. Also, my husbands first wife cheated. There is no excuse ever for adultery in my opinion, and in my experience, adulterers rarely come clean and repent on their own. They also care little it seems for ruining others lives even if its their own children.* Its a very serious sin and the consequences are far reaching. *
> For me the marriage would be over it it happened. The trust would be gone and I dounbt I could ever have sex again with a man who did this to me. Yes I would forgive eventually, but that wont change what has happened.


Post-A cheaters forget even though their affair is over the consequences last a lifetime. They have not only betrayed their Ws but their entire family. It is about them and only them.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

drifting on said:


> My point is this, I made mistakes and bad choices, so did my wife, and therapy has changed each of us. We love each other deeply and both have committed to the path we are currently on. Does she or even myself deserve sympathy from TAM? I don't know truthfully, all I know is two broken people are healing individually and healing a marriage as a team. I guess that is what everyone in reconciliation hopes to accomplish so they can move forward towards peace and happiness. Just my opinion.


Her choices were worse than yours - destructive with lifelong consequences. You deserve sympathy and support -period.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> What I'm trying to get people to see here is the distinction doesn't matter because you can't judge a book by its cover. Not all cheaters feel less or no pain, because some cheaters were abused by their APs. Not all cheaters feel less or no pain because in some cases the BS was cheating too. Not all cheaters feel less or no pain because in some cases the BS was abusive and the WS is a chronic codependent who had to ensure they had another relationship before they could leave.
> 
> Believe it or not, all of these things hurt a _lot_. Being abused by someone you trusted hurts. It even hurts cheaters. Feeling trapped and afraid to leave hurts. It even hurts cheaters. Being cheated on hurts. It even hurts cheaters. I'm tried of people assuming that _all_ cheaters cannot hurt because they are the perpetrators, because that's simply not true. It's a misrepresentation. Cheaters are not a monolith. It's a stereotype that all adulterers are heartless demons. Like most stereotypes, it's not accurate. Look beyond the stereotype and you might see circumstances that humanize these people and make them worthy of support.
> 
> The day people stop generalizing adulterers is the day my work here is done. A hurt spouse does not have to stay with or even care about the spouse who hurt them, but in the wider world, outside of their relationship, some empathy and understanding is called for. I'm not arguing that adultery isn't wrong. I'm saying even people who are wrong need compassion and understanding. Not approval; just understanding.


Ella, every human deserves dignity I agree. However not ever cheater is hurting in the sense they are feeling pain. Are they doing harm to themselves? I believe they are in the long run yes. However you can't tell me the guy who goes to see prostitutes behind his wife and families back is hurting. Or the wife who continues to go out with her boyfriend telling her insecure husband that she is confused, is hurting. 

I look at it like this if someone robs a bank and shoots the teller only to get shot in the process when the cops arrive. If I am E.M.T I am going to treat the teller first. I think most people feel that way. The teller is hurting do to not fault of their own, the robber brought the pain on themselves. Doesn't mean I think you shouldn't advocate for them, someone should. That seems to be what you want to do and that is fine by me. I just think you have to understand where most of us are coming from.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

karr99 said:


> I agree 100% with what you said. I don't know why, i'm a regular reader-non poster on TAM but something about this thread and some of the replies tick me off. As someone who has been on both side, i have to say that WS's pain is not even 10% compared to the loyal person.
> 
> Look beyond stereotypes and i still find a bunch of selfish liars. I'm sorry if that's to rough to some posters but as a former cheater myself it's important for to slash through argument like this in order for me to form a healthy relationship. In my opinion, comparing loyal's and disloyal's pain is like comparing cold and cancer. I will support ex-cheaters (like myself) who is trying to move forward, but not one still in "we are victims too" crowd.


WSs seem to like being the center of attention - and in the case of post dday that means being the "victim". What really ticks me off is post dday WSs who say they would not forgive the same transgression. Drives me nuts. I've read other WSs and even some Bss applaud this as setting healthy boundaries - bullsh!t - all it is in my opinion is a further exertion of power by the WS and any BSs who lives with a WS under those conditions is foolish.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

karr99 said:


> I agree 100% with what you said. I don't know why, i'm a regular reader-non poster on TAM but something about this thread and some of the replies tick me off. As someone who has been on both side, i have to say that WS's pain is not even 10% compared to the loyal person.
> 
> Look beyond stereotypes and i still find a bunch of selfish liars. I'm sorry if that's to rough to some posters but as a former cheater myself it's important for to slash through argument like this in order for me to form a healthy relationship. In my opinion, comparing loyal's and disloyal's pain is like comparing cold and cancer. I will support ex-cheaters (like myself) who is trying to move forward, but not one still in "we are victims too" crowd.


Great post. WS's (and those who have never even experienced cheating) who keep trying to convince TAM that people should feel sympathy for all the poor wittle cheaters unfortunately do exist here. We just need to keep calling them out when they post such drivel.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Let's move the discussion.

How much of the cheating happens because the WS doesn't really love the BS?

This is never said, maybe because it is too painful but I think a lot of times the truth is the WS doesn't love, maybe never was capable of loving their BS or anyone. I think this is the truth for more then 50%. Just look at the thing they do and I don't see how you can love someone and do those things. Maybe they even thought they loved there BS but really have no idea what love is. Some of the stuff I read I think lots of WS have severe emotional problems, the kind that really prevent you from having the kind of emotional bond that it takes to do long term commitment. 

I think if the BS could see this it would be easier to let go because they would see that there never really was any hope. Chalk it up to being tricked not to them not being worthy of love, which is a consistent fear I see a lot of BS have. I get it. I remember feeling that way. 

Sometimes I think if you could force the WS to be honest and they would tell the BS, I just don't love you, I never did. It would be painful but at least it would make some sense of what they did for the BS and help them move on.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Great post. WS's (and those who have never even experienced cheating) who keep trying to convince TAM that people should feel sympathy for all the poor wittle cheaters unfortunately do exist here. We just need to keep calling them out when they post such drivel.


On other boards the sympathy cheaters seek and receive is astounding from both Ws and BS!! They whine about how exhausted they are - they had the energy to date while married they need to find the energy for R. To be honest I do believe very few cheaters are every truly remorseful.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Let's move the discussion.
> 
> How much of the cheating happens because the WS doesn't really love the BS?
> 
> ...


Great question - Im not sure but I do know they dont respect their BS - at all. If you had a LTA espcially in your home, in ouy bed, etc you have no respect for your BS - none.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I do believe very few cheaters are every truly remorseful.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: VERY VERY few.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: VERY VERY few.


I find it hard to accept a cheater who has a LTA , sleeps with their AP in their martial bed or home, lies and deceives after dday, etc - is truly remorseful. They are afraid of the consequences - that is not remorse.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Just some thoughts off the top of my head:
I think for someone to be truly remorseful they have to 
- truly love their spouse. As in, would literally die for them. Very few spouses are like this. I don't think I am like this. I don't think I am like this about anyone but my kids, and my grandson. This sounds contradictory, but see my next point
- have a large capacity for compartmentalization. Some people do things on the one hand that don't fit AT ALL with their 'other side' if you will. Some cheaters think that way about sex, or intimacy, or both. They truly see what they do without their spouse knowing as something that isn't hurting them.
- REALLY, when they get right down to it, want to be married to the person they're married to.They might see their cheating as a temporary thing, to be stopped when the relationship with their spouse improves (my hubby did).
- have some kind of epiphany about themselves. You can't cheat and then be truly remorseful unless this happens. It has to be such an epiphany that thinking about what you did makes you literally ill.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Let's move the discussion.
> 
> How much of the cheating happens because the WS doesn't really love the BS?
> 
> ...





This is a very good question, with a multitude a variances for an answer. In that question is the word love, love has how many varying degrees? I love my mom, my sister, my dad, my wife, my boys, my dog, and so on. I'm in love with my wife, I'm not in love with any others. I believe it to be possible to love many, but I firmly believe you can only be in love with one. I think my wife loved me during her affair, but she definitely wasn't in love with me during the affair. That's a big difference, as well as to what degree she loved me. Like a friend? Father? Brother? I had asked my wife if she loved OM, she said no, but as we reconciled and therapy helped her she realized that not only did she love OM but was also in love with OM. At the time this hurt, I won't lie and say otherwise, but it was something I understood from d-day. 

Why do we do this to those we love, well, the old saying is we hurt the ones we love. We all make dumb or stupid choices in life, some have very little consequence while others have consequences that remain for your lifetime. My wife's choice will have consequences for a lifetime. When I chose to reconcile I also chose to accept those consequences, to rectify these consequences in the future. By this I mean the boys will need to be told at an age appropriate time, and in the office of a therapist. That is a cross I chose to bear down the road with the boys. I don't think this will be easy, for any of us, but I believe this to be the best way. In a way this is also done out of love for the boys as well as the right thing to do. 

So in my opinion, any question with the word love will have varying degrees as to what we all perceive love to be. I think this is what will make this question so difficult to answer.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Her choices were worse than yours - destructive with lifelong consequences. You deserve sympathy and support -period.




I agree her choices were worse, far more consequences, and support was definitely appreciated. Hell TAM is a large reason why I've made it this far! Maybe I deserve sympathy for her cheating, I just struggle with sympathy.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

drifting on said:


> ? I had asked my wife if she loved OM, she said no, but as we reconciled and therapy helped her she realized that not only did she love OM but was also in love with OM. At the time this hurt, I won't lie and say otherwise, but it was something I understood from d-day.


Many BSs have trouble with this and the fact that their WS did in fact enjoy the affair while they were in it. You met it head on from dday which is a good thing. You knew her denials were lies. Tell me how tolerant and forgiving is she of other people including yourself now that she has been given the ultimate act of forgiveness? She has no room to be judgemental of anyone - ever.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Many BSs have trouble with this and the fact that their WS did in fact enjoy the affair while they were in it. You met it head on from dday which is a good thing. You knew her denials were lies. Tell me how tolerant and forgiving is she of other people including yourself now that she has been given the ultimate act of forgiveness? She has no room to be judgemental of anyone - ever.




My wife has changed completely from what she was those six months of her life. Before the affair she was exceptionally kind to people. During high school she helped disabled students, even at lunch she helped them eat their food. She went out of her way to help elderly, gave elderly females rides, helped with friends and their parents during times of struggles. The way she helped people amazed me, one of the reasons I was so attracted to her. She has become that person again, but now with more compassion, she helps our neighbors, one is elderly and one has stage four breast cancer. She helps them as often as she can, as do I. 

Even after all this therapy, I'm still not perfect, and my wife is supportive and tolerant with me. She has been since d-day. She runs errands for me if I'm busy, she's made my lunch on occasion sticking little notes in it that say " I love you", as well as being there for me with life struggles. Is she perfect after all this therapy, no she's not either, but like me she's become a much better person. She has also returned to going to church, which I feel is important and I see how she has renewed her faith. She is there for whatever I need, does little things I may miss or forgot, and never once has asked for a thank you in return. Of course I do thank her, but my point is she does what needs to be done and without mentioning anything. It would be easy to say, you forgot garbage bags, but she will get them that night or the following day. I understand I'm mentioning the little things, but this is how far she has taken her change. 

I can't overlook what she does, she works hard at becoming better and I support her fully. I can honestly say if any of you met her not knowing she is my wife you would all be friends. You would be shocked at thinking she had it in her to cheat. I know first hand what she did was cruel, but I also know that she has worked very hard to be such a better person.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@drifting on I'm glad you can see the good in your wife despite everything. It says more about you than it does her IMO. She should be a walking monument to gratitude because she could have easily been a single mom to two boys.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Let's move the discussion.
> 
> How much of the cheating happens because the WS doesn't really love the BS?
> 
> ...



Unfortunately I think the truth is even worse. When I was still unrepentant, my line of thinking was, "I do love and care about my husband and always have, but I used to care about him more than I did myself. Now I care about my own security slightly more, and that slightly is enough to make me able to throw him under the bus." I wasn't happy that I was hurting my husband, but I wasn't devastated either like you should be when you hurt someone you love that badly. When you're infatuated with someone else to the point that you're considering cheating, not only do the romantic feelings you have for your partner wane, your strong committed sense of devotion does too. Both kinds of love diminish into the background. 

The scary part is that they were there before, and if you aren't aware of your own capability to be unfaithful, something as ephemeral as a daydream or a feeling can make them go away.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Unfortunately I think the truth is even worse. When I was still unrepentant, my line of thinking was, "I do love and care about my husband and always have, but I used to care about him more than I did myself. Now I care about my own security slightly more, and that slightly is enough to make me able to throw him under the bus." I wasn't happy that I was hurting my husband, but I wasn't devastated either like you should be when you hurt someone you love that badly. When you're infatuated with someone else to the point that you're considering cheating, not only do the romantic feelings you have for your partner wane, your strong committed sense of devotion does too. Both kinds of love diminish into the background.
> 
> The scary part is that they were there before, and if you aren't aware of your own capability to be unfaithful, something as ephemeral as a daydream or a feeling can make them go away.


This is one of the best posts ever put on here. All you have to do is read some of the boards where people in affairs post and you get this sense. This is also why character and loyalty are so important. It keeps you from going down the rabbit hole. Clear boundaries. Well said Ella.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Post-A cheaters forget even though their affair is over the consequences last a lifetime. They have not only betrayed their Ws but their entire family. It is about them and only them.


Yes and in my case, it had even more devastating effects on the whole family than usual, because my mum got severely depressed and eventually took her life. Probably why I hate cheating so much and realize that most cheaters are just selfish, self-centered, very immoral people. Fortunately, neither my brother or I would ever act that way, but sadly he has had 2 wives who cheated on him.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Yes and in my case, it had even more devastating effects on the whole family than usual, because my mum got severely depressed and eventually took her life. Probably why I hate cheating so much and realize that most cheaters are just selfish, self-centered, very immoral people. Fortunately, neither my brother or I would ever act that way, but sadly he has had 2 wives who cheated on him.


I'm sorry about your mom and your brothers two awful wives. On some other boards where cheaters are allowed their safe spaces with stop signs they begin these threads that I can best describe as "I'm a WS hear me roar!". It is mostly if not exclusively WWs who go on to declare what worthy human beings they are and how they now have boundaries and enforce them on their BHs. WTF? It is astonishing to watch the tone deaf nature in which they post their thoughts. Simply astonishing.. While they were cheating they had no boundaries or standards but now they are these morally upright people. Please spare me. If your going to improve yourself do it humbly and dont sign into a message board to have other cheaters and some BSs tell you what a great person you are. They are still seeking that attention and it is still about them - their marriage their rules - their BSs are fools for living under such conditions. But hey there are a lot of bad people in the world with fools that love them. Any BS who stays with a Ws who has declared they would not extend them the same mercy if they had an infidelity is a fool IMO - a garden variety fool. And one more thing any WS that declares that they will not extend mercy is not remorseful IMO they just want everything under their control post-A.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I'm sorry about your mom and your brothers two awful wives. On some other boards where cheaters are allowed their safe spaces with stop signs they begin these threads that I can best describe as "I'm a WS hear me roar!". It is mostly if not exclusively WWs who go on to declare what worthy human beings they are and how they now have boundaries and enforce them on their BHs. WTF? It is astonishing to watch the tone deaf nature in which they post their thoughts. Simply astonishing.. While they were cheating they had no boundaries or standards but now they are these morally upright people. Please spare me. If your going to improve yourself do it humbly and dont sign into a message board to have other cheaters and some BSs tell you what a great person you are. They are still seeking that attention and it is still about them - their marriage their rules - their BSs are fools for living under such conditions. But hey there are a lot of bad people in the world with fools that love them. Any BS who stays with a Ws who has declared they would not extend them the same mercy if they had an infidelity is a fool IMO - a garden variety fool. And one more thing any WS that declares that they will not extend mercy is not remorseful IMO they just want everything under their control post-A.


Thank you. I loved my sisters in law a lot, and with my mum as well, you can see that we have had such pain and loss due to adultery in my family. My husbands ex also cheated on him as did my grandfather on my grandmother causing divorce in both cases. 

I have no idea why anyone would stay with someone who is so unrepentant that they would not forgive their spouse if they did what they have done.How selfish and how disgusting. I have no time for cheaters. I would never be with someone who had cheated on me or anyone else. I would rather be alone.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Thank you. I loved my sisters in law a lot, and with my mum as well, you can see that we have had such pain and loss due to adultery in my family. My husbands ex also cheated on him as did my grandfather on my grandmother causing divorce in both cases.
> 
> *I have no idea why anyone would stay with someone who is so unrepentant that they would not forgive their spouse if they did what they have done.How selfish and how disgusting. *I have no time for cheaters. I would never be with someone who had cheated on me or anyone else. I would rather be alone.


The thing is these cheaters say it proudly - as if they have discovered something. The main reason I can think of why BS would stay is fear - fear of losing their kids, money, etc.. How one can go to bed with a traitor AND a hypocrite I do not know. It gets under my skin. Also normal people dont need to list normal boundaries like I didn't shag my neighbor and expect kudos for it. SMH


----------



## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

Truthseeker1 said:


> The thing is these cheaters say it proudly - as if they have discovered something. The main reason I can think of why BS would stay is fear - fear of losing their kids, money, etc.. How one can go to bed with a traitor AND a hypocrite I do not know. It gets under my skin. Also normal people dont need to list normal boundaries like I didn't shag my neighbor and expect kudos for it. SMH


Many of loyal's reasoning is also Hope. They hope and project remorse to the cheater, they like to think that the cheater is really really sorry for what they've done and understand their pain while in reality it's impossible to feel it unless you experience it.

The thing is BS have to dig deeper, is the cheater sorry simply because the affair hurt the loyal spouse, or is the cheater sorry because he/she realize that it's a slimy dishonest thing to do ? Lots of cheaters i know fall into the former category not the later, they're sorry they got caught and cause sadness but not sorry for the actual gaslighting+secret flirting+sneaking into hotel etc. 
There's a former cheating husband blog, he told his wife he'd been having morning shift while in fact he was out working on a single mom whose child is a friend to their child. He got caught and off course, sorry for the pain he caused his wife but told that he also missed the forbidden sensation, the thrill of sneaking into the AP's house before dawn and doing it in silent because they don't want to wake up AP's children. He stopped his cheating and working on the marriage but also missed the AP. The blog disappeared after a while, i hope the wife figured it out and dump his ass

I'd be very worry if i have WS who fall into category 1, the next time, they'd simply hide it better because they don't think cheating at the core, is a wrong thing to do.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> The thing is these cheaters say it proudly - as if they have discovered something. The main reason I can think of why BS would stay is fear - fear of losing their kids, money, etc.. How one can go to bed with a traitor AND a hypocrite I do not know. It gets under my skin. Also normal people dont need to list normal boundaries like I didn't shag my neighbor and expect kudos for it. SMH


 yes, there is no humility is there. :frown2::frown2:


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

karr99 said:


> He got caught and off course, sorry for the pain he caused his wife *but told that he also missed the forbidden sensation, the thrill of sneaking into the AP's house before dawn and doing it in silent because they don't want to wake up AP's children.* He stopped his cheating and working on the marriage but also missed the AP. The blog disappeared after a while, i hope the wife figured it out and dump his ass


This is one thing many cheaters won't admit - how much they enjoyed the affair while it was going on. If its a ONS and they are remorseful and said they didnt like it I'd be willing to believe that but not an affair that lasted over an extended period of time not so much. They enjoy the adrenaline rush of the whole thing - in short its fun. Its the consequences that are not fun. IMO any R after a LTA involves letting the cheater get away with it on some level. And when cheaters chime in and say "I didnt get away with it I felt so bad" - yeah well two things its self inflicted and you are not experiencing the pain your BS is feeling so please quit it you are not the victim here. Cheaters can move on without the mind movies, self esteem hit and all the other lovely side effects of infidelity which is why I have no sympathy for a cheater who gets cheated on. They deserve to be cheated on IMO.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> yes, there is no humility is there. :frown2::frown2:


This particular group I was referring to have NO humility - zero. How is it an achievement to wake up and be a decent person?


----------



## skb (Dec 1, 2012)

I'll give you an opinion from the other side, serial cheater here. True remorse is not possible, at least not for me. And of course I always feel like my then spouse pushed me to it.

Sharon


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

skb said:


> I'll give you an opinion from the other side, serial cheater here. True remorse is not possible, at least not for me. And of course I always feel like my then spouse pushed me to it.
> 
> Sharon


So why are you married if you aren't going to be faithful? Do your moral values tell you that its ok to do this?


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

skb said:


> I'll give you an opinion from the other side, serial cheater here. True remorse is not possible, at least not for me. And of course I always feel like my then spouse pushed me to it.
> 
> Sharon


Well I appreciate you being honest. If this is the case perhaps you should not get into a another exclusive relationship. Some people can not make that work. I do put serial cheaters or cheaters who have LTAs for years into a different category and I am definitely more skeptical of their "remorse". 

I am curious why do you think true remorse is not possible for you?


----------



## skb (Dec 1, 2012)

When the right guy comes my way I honestly think I lack the will power to resist his advances. I would guess my moral values are remiss in the case of starting an affair.
As far as why am I married, every time I think I'm stronger and will be able to resist the startup of a new affair. That obviously turns out not to be the case.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

skb said:


> When the right guy comes my way I honestly think I lack the will power to resist his advances. I would guess my moral values are remiss in the case of starting an affair.
> As far as why am I married, every time I think I'm stronger and will be able to resist the startup of a new affair. That obviously turns out not to be the case.


Have you sought out counseling to figure out why you behcave the way you do?


----------



## skb (Dec 1, 2012)

I have not. I'm convinced my problem is lack of will power. To date I have had a lot of opportunities and as I said, the right guy comes along.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

skb said:


> When the right guy comes my way I honestly think I lack the will power to resist his advances. I would guess my moral values are remiss in the case of starting an affair.
> As far as why am I married, every time I think I'm stronger and will be able to resist the startup of a new affair. That obviously turns out not to be the case.


 Does your husband know that you cheat?
The thing is that we all have the willpower to be faithful if we choose to be.
Please just stay away from women's husband. Anyone who cheats with someone else's husband or wife is the lowest of the low, and causes so much pain for the cheated on spouse and their children, and even leads to suicides sometimes.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

skb said:


> I have not. I'm convinced my problem is lack of will power. To date I have had a lot of opportunities and as I said, the right guy comes along.


I'm not convinced its a matter of will power - many people in bad marriages or who get tempted by attractive people dont cheat. You need to get to your whys. It sounds as if your behavior is self destructive. Why is that? You need to sift through your motivations with a professional.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

skb said:


> I have not. I'm convinced my problem is lack of will power. To date I have had a lot of opportunities and as I said, the right guy comes along.


Serial cheating is an overdose on escapism {a second fantasy life, real AND imagined where I am the lead character} coupled with selfish entitlement {I deserve MORE ~ it's all about me or it's MY turn to live free} meets a complete lack of impulse control {I can do whatever I FEEL like doing and ain't nobody gonna control me}.

Our prisons are full of such persons.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

As far as the unliklihood of true remorse...

I find most people are wayward thinkers ~ not just adulterers {former or not}.

no one is immune.

true full repentance IS rare.

We all need to work at doing it and then doing it again and again.


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Quality said:


> As far as the unliklihood of true remorse...
> 
> I find most people are wayward thinkers ~ not just adulterers {former or not}.
> 
> ...


This I agree with....

But what you described as 'wayward thinkers' is simply call 'justifiers'....and you are correct IMO, that most humans do it.

Because the end goal of all justification is.....NO CONSEQUENCES.

The number of people who willingly admit wrong....aka 'own their crap'....and accept the consequences that result from poor choices is a small minority.

I'm used to seeing it from teenagers I teach.....but then you quickly see where they learned the behavior when you have a meeting with their parents.

This is one of the true, lasting, and more subtle damages that WS do to their children......so much of behavior and decision making is learned through a process of socialization, which begins as mimicking in young children.

When the adult being mimicked is a lying traitor, the damage can be immense in the long run.


----------



## skb (Dec 1, 2012)

I stay away from married men and all the baggage that comes with them. However, there are married guys out there that lie about being single. That has always been a deal breaker for me. My husband has no idea. No suspicions at this point. Willpower? It's easy to SAY willpower is what is needed to resist cheating. And yet another thing to actually have the willpower to resist. It is for me at least.


----------



## skb (Dec 1, 2012)

Self-destructive? I would say guilty as charged. But I would say my main issue is not being able to resist temptation. Physical attraction just melts me. Like the quote BTW.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

skb said:


> I stay away from married men and all the baggage that comes with them. However, there are married guys out there that lie about being single. That has always been a deal breaker for me. My husband has no idea. No suspicions at this point. Willpower? It's easy to SAY willpower is what is needed to resist cheating. And yet another thing to actually have the willpower to resist. It is for me at least.


We can choose to be faithful, ALL of us. It's a decision. Having good strong boundaries in place with the opposite sex is a start. 

Your poor husband, don't you think its the kindest thing to let him go and find a wife who will be faithful and have some moral values?


----------



## skb (Dec 1, 2012)

Quality said:


> Serial cheating is an overdose on escapism {a second fantasy life, real AND imagined where I am the lead character} coupled with selfish entitlement {I deserve MORE ~ it's all about me or it's MY turn to live free} meets a complete lack of impulse control {I can do whatever I FEEL like doing and ain't nobody gonna control me}.
> 
> Our prisons are full of such persons.


I can actually identify with your statements above. However, I'm far from being a criminal.


----------



## skb (Dec 1, 2012)

I can choose to be faithful but give me opportunity and the right guy I pretty much melt. I lose my resolve quickly around an attractive, available male. Ever been hit on by someone you would love to sleep with?


----------



## skb (Dec 1, 2012)

"Your poor husband, don't you think its the kindest thing to let him go and find a wife who will be faithful and have some moral values?"

What makes you think his next wife would be faithful? It's a possibility but not a certainty. 
|


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

skb said:


> I can choose to be faithful but give me opportunity and the right guy I pretty much melt. I lose my resolve quickly around an attractive, available male. Ever been hit on by someone you would love to sleep with?


No because I wouldn't let myself get into that position. I have also seen far too many lives in my family destroyed by adultery. 
Get some good boundaries in place.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

skb said:


> "Your poor husband, don't you think its the kindest thing to let him go and find a wife who will be faithful and have some moral values?"
> 
> What makes you think his next wife would be faithful? It's a possibility but not a certainty.
> |


Hopefuly he would choose more wisely next time.


----------



## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Hopefuly he would choose more wisely next time.


IKR, that poor guy. It's a learning curve though, serial cheater has never been sorry for what they did


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

skb said:


> "Your poor husband, don't you think its the kindest thing to let him go and find a wife who will be faithful and have some moral values?"
> 
> What makes you think his next wife would be faithful? It's a possibility but not a certainty.
> |


Animal control shows up at your home to take your animals into protective custody and your argument is: "what makes you all think the next person that adopts these animals won't abuse them too". You don't get to keep your husband, like an abused dog, because there's a chance his next wife might abuse him too. 

As far as not being a criminal ~ adultery is certainly morally and biblically a crime; but, even if you aren't religious, it remains statutorily illegal in much of the world {including many places in the western world}. Many of those places no longer enforce the supposedly archaic laws while others offer summary execution for the offense {whether you adhere to their faith-based laws or not}.

Adultery is a much more serious personally destructive {to both the victim and yourself} crime than many other crimes. I think society would even benefit if we put a few more drug offenders into effective rehab to make some room to lock up serial adulterers for like 6 months each just so they'd understand this very simple fact ~ it is not just sex ~ it's a crime. Probably make repentance a lot more likely too, which is kind of the point, punishment, AND rehabilitation. You can't rehabilitate if you don't even think what you're doing is really wrong.

Point is, you are a self-admitted unrepentant reprobate serial criminal {presuming you aren't just yanking our chains for sport}. A common criminal.


----------



## skb (Dec 1, 2012)

"Adultery is a much more serious personally destructive {to both the victim and yourself} crime than many other crimes. I think society would even benefit if we put a few more drug offenders into effective rehab to make some room to lock up serial adulterers for like 6 months each just so they'd understand this very simple fact ~ it is not just sex ~ it's a crime. Probably make repentance a lot more likely too, which is kind of the point, punishment, AND rehabilitation. You can't rehabilitate if you don't even think what you're doing is really wrong."

"Point is, you are a self-admitted unrepentant reprobate serial criminal {presuming you aren't just yanking our chains for sport}. A common criminal. "


In the state in which I live divorce is easy and amazingly inexpensive - NO FAULT RULES. Under NO FAULT the courts could care less if either party has had extramarital sex. 30 days and you get your divorce. Either party could sue the other for adultery. However, adultery is very hard to prove in court and the cost is prohibitive.
a
|


----------



## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

skb said:


> I stay away from married men and all the baggage that comes with them. However, there are married guys out there that lie about being single. That has always been a deal breaker for me. *My husband has no idea. No suspicions at this point.* Willpower? It's easy to SAY willpower is what is needed to resist cheating. And yet another thing to actually have the willpower to resist. It is for me at least.


I just read through your first thread 4 years ago. Are you still with Husband #2 who you were thinking about divorcing then (after the conversation with your friend about her divorce)?

***EDIT, now I'm reading your other thread about you thinking about marriage #3. Am I reading this correctly that you did marry him and are cheating on him as well?


----------



## skb (Dec 1, 2012)

TheGoodGuy said:


> I just read through your first thread 4 years ago. Are you still with Husband #2 who you were thinking about divorcing then (after the conversation with your friend about her divorce)?
> 
> ***EDIT, now I'm reading your other thread about you thinking about marriage #3. Am I reading this correctly that you did marry him and are cheating on him as well?


I'm on husband #3


----------



## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

skb said:


> I'm on husband #3


And am I reading it correctly that you're cheating on him as well? You wrote this in your last thread 

"Still, I think I'm going to take a chance one more time. I'm convinced my fiancée is good marriage material.

SKB"

Is he still marriage material? Are YOU?


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

skb said:


> I'm on husband #3



Did you cheat on all of them? 

What kind of emotional upheaval did it

1. cause to you?
2. cause to your XHs
3. Children (have you any?)

What are your reasons for cheating?
Did you feel any remorse?

Just would like to know motivates people to cheat. Thanks


----------



## skb (Dec 1, 2012)

aine said:


> Did you cheat on all of them?
> 
> What kind of emotional upheaval did it
> 
> ...


I've admitted I'm a serial cheater. In this post I've admitted a couple of times the reason I cheat. My Xs are OK. I have a daughter from my first marriage.


----------



## hylton7 (Jan 24, 2017)

who is you daughter's bio dad?
are you sure its your first husband?


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

skb said:


> I've admitted I'm a serial cheater. In this post I've admitted a couple of times the reason I cheat. My Xs are OK. I have a daughter from my first marriage.


What makes you want to pursue marriage given what you know about yourself?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

skb said:


> I've admitted I'm a serial cheater. In this post I've admitted a couple of times the reason I cheat. My Xs are OK. I have a daughter from my first marriage.


I get it that you don't morally see a problem with you brokenness. Sounds like you have BPD or are a Narcissist or maybe even a Sociopath, but let me ask you this how is that working out for you? You really don't seem happy. You are kind of like an alcoholic, broken down in a broken life. Ever think about trying to fix yourself for that reason? Seems like a hard way to live. It's hard to live like Elizabeth Taylor even when you ARE Elizabeth Taylor.

Maybe you don't realize this but you are only capable of the very shallowest of relationships when you think like you do. You are kind of living your life for the sugar rush. I mean soda pop is nice but if that is all you drink you really miss out. There is some great bear and wine out there too. 

Your husband will eventually figure it out. Your life isn't going to get any easier as you age.


----------



## dmatters (Apr 19, 2017)

I have read something that says

"Don't regret something you once did, at the time it was exactly what you wanted to do"

From everyone I know that has went through infidelity, reading the internet stuff and my own fun experiences
the percentage of truly remorseful cheaters seems very low. Sorry for getting caught, even sorry for hurting you, but sorry for their actions? HA
Cheaters are above all else selfish narcissists, many feel that their cheating was like a starving person getting to eat it was for their own survival hard to be sorry for that.


----------



## skb (Dec 1, 2012)

First husband is bio father of my daughter, of that I am certain


----------



## skb (Dec 1, 2012)

sokillme said:


> I get it that you don't morally see a problem with you brokenness. Sounds like you have BPD or are a Narcissist or maybe even a Sociopath, but let me ask you this how is that working out for you? You really don't seem happy. You are kind of like an alcoholic, broken down in a broken life. Ever think about trying to fix yourself for that reason? Seems like a hard way to live. It's hard to live like Elizabeth Taylor even when you ARE Elizabeth Taylor.
> 
> Maybe you don't realize this but you are only capable of the very shallowest of relationships when you think like you do. You are kind of living your life for the sugar rush. I mean soda pop is nice but if that is all you drink you really miss out. There is some great bear and wine out there too.
> 
> Your husband will eventually figure it out. Your life isn't going to get any easier as you age.


I think it will be a while before I catch Liz. Several of your statements were close but you hit the nail on the head with:
“you are only capable of the very shallowest of relationships when you think like you do.“

You guys are getting down and dirty. I am not a sociopath or a criminal!!!
Happy? I have lots and lots of friends, a gorgeous daughter from my first marriage, college degree, good career, husband, and a long list to choose from.


----------



## skb (Dec 1, 2012)

sokillme said:


> I get it that you don't morally see a problem with you brokenness. Sounds like you have BPD or are a Narcissist or maybe even a Sociopath, but let me ask you this how is that working out for you? You really don't seem happy. You are kind of like an alcoholic, broken down in a broken life. Ever think about trying to fix yourself for that reason? Seems like a hard way to live. It's hard to live like Elizabeth Taylor even when you ARE Elizabeth Taylor.
> 
> Maybe you don't realize this but you are only capable of the very shallowest of relationships when you think like you do. You are kind of living your life for the sugar rush. I mean soda pop is nice but if that is all you drink you really miss out. There is some great bear and wine out there too.
> 
> Your husband will eventually figure it out. Your life isn't going to get any easier as you age.




I think it will be a while before I catch Liz. Several of your statements were close but you hit the nail on the head with:
“you are only capable of the very shallowest of relationships when you think like you do.“

You guys are getting down and dirty. I am not a sociopath or a criminal!!!
Happy? I have lots and lots of friends, a gorgeous daughter from my first marriage, college degree, good career, husband, and a long list to choose from.


----------



## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

skb said:


> You guys are getting down and dirty. * I am not a sociopath* or a criminal!!!
> Happy? I have lots and lots of friends, a gorgeous daughter from my first marriage, *college degree, good career*, husband, and a long list to choose from.


 Lots of college degreed, high powered business folks are sociopaths. Sociopath doesn't necessarily mean psychopath (although I'm sure some would argue that). It's a lack of conscience among other things. 

There's really nothing wrong with you wanting to be with lots of people and go after every good looking guy that makes himself available to you. You just shouldn't make vows to one particular person if you fully intend to not be faithful to that person.


----------



## skb (Dec 1, 2012)

TheGoodGuy said:


> Lots of college degreed, high powered business folks are sociopaths. Sociopath doesn't necessarily mean psychopath (although I'm sure some would argue that). It's a lack of conscience among other things.
> 
> There's really nothing wrong with you wanting to be with lots of people and go after every good looking guy that makes himself available to you. You just shouldn't make vows to one particular person if you fully intend to not be faithful to that person.


Seriously, I have let my last two husbands talk me into marriage. I knew better and should not have agreed to marry them. Not certain where the attachment came from, probably one of my GFs


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

skb said:


> Seriously, I have let my last two husbands talk me into marriage. I knew better and should not have agreed to marry them.


Third one either.

Have you met #4 yet?

And seriously, folks -- don't open the .doc.


----------



## theDrifter (Mar 20, 2017)

Telling us not to open the .doc is pretty much a guarantee that every reader will open it :smile2:

I cannot imagine my wife, or any cheater, ever feeling what I consider "true remorse". People who go through a stop sign & hit & kill someone. They may not have been paying enough attention and blame themselves. They were doing nothing wrong, they had no intention of doing anything to hurt anyone yet are more than willing to accept responsibility and pay any consequence without placing blame on the victim. Someone in that situation may truly feel remorse for what they perceive as a horrible accident that the think could have been avoided. 

Now, if that same person was blind-drunk and drove recklessly through an intersection and killed someone I don't believe that person would feel true remorse. That would feel regret that it happened, regret that they hurt someone, and self-pity for having to pay the consequences. I hope everyone can see the difference.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

skb said:


> I think it will be a while before I catch Liz.


Keep thinking like this and you will. 

Not all sociopaths are criminals. I want to ask you do you have love? Not someone loving you but you loving someone else? I think it is hard for me and other people like me to think you do when you cat treat others the way you do. For many people the way they treat others is just as important as how they are treated by others maybe even more important. It's how people can get cheated on in the most horrible ways and still not exact revenge. It is a part of what we think makes us valuable, it is how we get a lot of our self worth. 

I am curious what do you think about when you read what I just wrote?


----------



## skb (Dec 1, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Keep thinking like this and you will.
> 
> Not all sociopaths are criminals. I want to ask you do you have love? Not someone loving you but you loving someone else? I think it is hard for me and other people like me to think you do when you cat treat others the way you do. For many people the way they treat others is just as important as how they are treated by others maybe even more important. It's how people can get cheated on in the most horrible ways and still not exact revenge. It is a part of what we think makes us valuable, it is how we get a lot of our self worth.
> 
> I am curious what do you think about when you read what I just wrote?


What is cat treat? I'll be the first to admit I haven't found a true, lasting love with a male. But, my love for my daughter is PERFECT and will last an eternity.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> Third one either.
> 
> Have you met #4 yet?
> 
> And seriously, folks -- don't open the .doc.


Women to Avoid as a Potential Marriage Partner

1.Women who have affairs are more likely to divorce.

2.Women who had affairs in their previous marriage(s) have almost a 100% probability they will cheat in subsequent marriages.

3.Women who divorce once are more likely to divorce again.

4.Some women say that affairs helped them survive marriage.

5.Women who have multiple affairs have the highest divorce rates.

6.Women with parents that have multiple marriages are more likely to have multiple marriages themselves.

7.Women that have had multiple live in lovers prior to marriage have more than twice the normal rate of divorce.

8.Women who separate are 98% likely to ultimately file for divorce. It seems separation first is an easy way to let the STBX down gently. If she wants a separation, she wants a DIVORCE.

9.Married women you cheated with. If she cheated with you she’ll cheat on you in marriage.

10.Women well realize they have been empowered by the courts. The vast majority of divorces are initiated by women and at an ever increasing rate. It makes perfect sense. They are well aware they will be the ultimate winner in divorce.

ETA: The above should not be gender specific... women should also think long and hard about getting involved with men who fit that this list.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Women to Avoid as a Potential Marriage Partner
> 
> 1.Women who have affairs are more likely to divorce.
> 
> ...


Interesting list...its important to look deeper than how you "feel" about the person..character counts and even if someone is intoxicating to you it does not mean they should be your spouse..


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

skb said:


> I think it will be a while before I catch Liz. Several of your statements were close but you hit the nail on the head with:
> “you are only capable of the very shallowest of relationships when you think like you do.“
> 
> You guys are getting down and dirty. I am not a sociopath or a criminal!!!
> Happy? I have lots and lots of friends, a gorgeous daughter from my first marriage, college degree, good career, husband, and a long list to choose from.


Yet you are a liar, cheat and deceiver who has no moral values
You can have all the things you mention and still act terribly and be unhappy inside.


----------



## skb (Dec 1, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Yet you are a liar, cheat and deceiver who has no moral values
> You can have all the things you mention and still act terribly and be unhappy inside.


What you say is true. Unfortunately it goes with the package. I am however happy for the most part. As you know, life is bittersweet.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

skb said:


> What you say is true. Unfortunately it goes with the package. I am however happy for the most part. As you know, life is bittersweet.


For the large part life is what we make of it and dependent on how we act. Acting the way you do will make it unhappy and painful for those you say you love. What sort of role model are you for the daughter you claim to love? You treat the ones you love with contempt and cruelty.
You marry and make promises knowing that you will break them. 

I hope that one day you will be honest with your husband and tell him what sort of person you are. Does he know that you cheated on previous husbands?


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> For the large part life is what we make of it and dependent on how we act. Acting the way you do will make it unhappy and painful for those you say you love. What sort of role model are you for the daughter you claim to love? You treat the ones you love with contempt and cruelty.
> You marry and make promises knowing that you will break them.
> 
> I hope that one day you will be honest with your husband and tell him what sort of person you are. Does he know that you cheated on previous husbands?


She's under 30 and on her 3rd marriage -- if he doesn't at least _suspect_ then he's kind of an idiot.


----------



## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

skb said:


> I think it will be a while before I catch Liz. Several of your statements were close but you hit the nail on the head with:
> “you are only capable of the very shallowest of relationships when you think like you do.“
> 
> You guys are getting down and dirty. I am not a sociopath or a criminal!!!
> Happy? I have lots and lots of friends, a gorgeous daughter from my first marriage, college degree, good career, husband, and a long list to choose from.


So lets start with you probably have a screwed up daughter who will now never be "right" because of you, but then you are not capable of true remorse because thats the way you are. So how do you feel about having a screwed up daughter?

What would you say if your husband was sleeping with other younger prettier women (age does catch you up eventually) - would you accept that he has done nothing wrong because in his mind, you drove him to it?

What do you plan to do when you are older and unable to sell your "wares" ? Turn over a new leaf or just turn over?

Why do you need to be married? Is it easier to attract the right (wrong) type of guy that way?

You might catch Liz up sooner than you think. Each time makes it harder to find a good man.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> She's under 30 and on her 3rd marriage -- if he doesn't at least _suspect_ then he's kind of an idiot.


yes, I wouldnt marry anyone who had already been divorced twice, but she probably lied about what happened.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> yes, I wouldnt marry anyone who had already been divorced twice, but she probably lied about what happened.


I think someones past does indeed matter when picking a marriage partner. I think the couple should know as much about each other as possible before the wedding to make an informed choice. What I cant stand is those who deceive before their marriage and then are upset and consider their spouses judgemental when the truth comes out. You dont have a right to lie to get your chosen partner to marry you.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@skb Hi there. I haven't fully read your story yet but I noticed that you are a cheating (wayward) spouse and that TAM may or may not be jumping on your back about it. In 2014 I had an affair with an abusive man, in 2016 I decided to tell this forum about it, and my experience and sharing my story sort of compelled me to become the unofficial consoler of wayward spouses. As I said ,I haven't read everything yet, but feel free to message me. I want you to know that you are not a bad person; you are a good person who made some very ill-informed and rash decisions, and you deserve support and care and understanding and compassion.

Forgive me if this sounds too generic. I'm in bed nursing a cold but after a nap I'll try to come on and give a more personal response. I wish you all the best and, again, please message me if you need someone to talk to.


----------



## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> @skb Hi there. I haven't fully read your story yet but I noticed that you are a cheating (wayward) spouse and that TAM may or may not be jumping on your back about it. In 2014 I had an affair with an abusive man, in 2016 I decided to tell this forum about it, and my experience and sharing my story sort of compelled me to become the unofficial consoler of wayward spouses. As I said ,I haven't read everything yet, but feel free to message me. I want you to know that you are not a bad person; you are a good person who made some very ill-informed and rash decisions, and you deserve support and care and understanding and compassion.
> 
> Forgive me if this sounds too generic. I'm in bed nursing a cold but after a nap I'll try to come on and give a more personal response. I wish you all the best and, again, please message me if you need someone to talk to.


Smh.......some folks need a conscience more than they need consoling. 

Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

oneMOreguy said:


> Smh.......some folks need a conscience more than they need consoling.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk


They need consequences also - but many people who cheat want to be the victim too and want to be coddled. I think it is fair t say that when infidelity occurs many times the BS carries most of the burden even when Roccurs. The cheater got to have their fun and then gets ot keep their marriage - where are the consequences? Meanwhile the Bs deals with triggers, self-esteem issues, anger, etc for years afterwards.


----------



## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

A cheater might be a "good person" - but they have / are doing "BAD THINGS" to other people, especially to someone they are supposed to "LOVE" or "be in love with"...

Cheaters don't know the amount of damage they done to another human being... (unless its two cheaters cheating on each other - in which case- they won't fell pain anyway).

And when they do it over and over again... the excuses are nothing but that. Their justifications are worthless.


----------



## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> For the large part life is what we make of it and dependent on how we act. Acting the way you do will make it unhappy and painful for those you say you love. What sort of role model are you for the daughter you claim to love? You treat the ones you love with contempt and cruelty.


That should be one of the top things a cheater should think about.... "What am I teaching and showing my children by causing severe pain to their other parent?" It can show the child/ren than love is fake... if you have no respect for your husband or wife, who do you have respect for? The other cheater?!


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TaDor said:


> A cheater might be a "good person" - but they have / are doing "BAD THINGS" to other people, especially to someone they are supposed to "LOVE" or "be in love with"...
> *
> Cheaters don't know the amount of damage they done to another human being..*. (unless its two cheaters cheating on each other - in which case- they won't fell pain anyway).
> 
> And when they do it over and over again... the excuses are nothing but that. Their justifications are worthless.


No they don't which is why I feel zero sympathy for a cheater who becomes a madhatter - I think every cheater should feel that sting of betrayal as punishment fot what they did - and they deserve to. Many do not - they R with a decent person who gives them the gift of a faithful spouse - a gift they can never give again. Because no matter what they will always have cheated..

I've even read a couple of cases where WWs worried that once they became older and less attractive their BH would leave them for greener pastures - once again always thinking about themselves.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TaDor said:


> That should be one of the top things a cheater should think about.... "What am I teaching and showing my children by causing severe pain to their other parent?" It can show the child/ren than love is fake... if you have no respect for your husband or wife, who do you have respect for? The other cheater?!


Cheaters not only cheat on their Bs but their WHOLE family. Their affair also damages their kids as well. How can they tell their kids to be respectful and honest with any credibility after destroying their family like that?


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*As with anything, cheaters, more often than not, are nothing more than serial liars!

And not only do they lie to their BS, their children, their families, their friends, their clergy, and their community, but more importantly, they lie to themselves, greatly in pursuit of some innate form of comfort!

And I highly suspect that when they finally reach judgment, they'll be vain and conceited enough to even try to lie about their sordid actions to an all-knowing Heavenly Father!*


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *As with anything, cheaters, more often than not, are nothing more than serial liars!
> 
> And not only do they lie to their BS, their children, their families, their friends, their clergy, and their community, but more importantly, they lie to themselves, greatly in pursuit of some innate form of comfort!
> 
> And I highly suspect that when they finally reach judgment, they'll be vain and conceited enough to even try to lie about their sordid actions to an all-knowing Heavenly Father!*


As much as I disapprove of cheaters I don't get BSs who roll over during R. Is is low self-esteem? Is it perceived lack of options? 

Ever read of cases where a BH finds out his wife is cheating and then reconciles to settle for a low sex marriage and haunt message boards complaining? Why the hell even stay? My sympathy for betrayed runs out when they stay stuck and whine all the time or lecture other BSs for being to "mean to the WS...


----------



## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

Well, to know the chance of true remorse just enter SI Wayward Forum. They are doing great on the surface, they feel regret and empathy but boy, when the problem is getting serious, the true color emerge. 

There's a serial cheater WH, had been cheating at least 4 times during 20 years of marriage. He feels betrayed (LOL) because his wife quit R after 8 months, he also feels angry because during those months he's worked so hard to change himself, even agreed to enter R without guarantee of forgiveness (he's entitled to it!) but wifey quits. WH also hopes to find happiness again in the future. It's all always been about him. What's even more sick is also almost everyone pat him on the back and said that he's been doing great job. One called his bullsh!t and off course, he got angry and he brought up everything that he had done again. I haven't visited that forum since


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> As much as I disapprove of cheaters I don't get BSs who roll over during R. Is is low self-esteem? Is it perceived lack of options?
> 
> Ever read of cases where a BH finds out his wife is cheating and then reconciles to settle for a low sex marriage and haunt message boards complaining? Why the hell even stay? My sympathy for betrayed runs out when they stay stuck and whine all the time or lecture other BSs for being to "mean to the WS...


*TS: Such episodes literally makes my blood boil!*


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *TS: Such episodes literally makes my blood boil!*


I wonder what goes through a BH's head when his WW cheats with another man, he gives her the gift of R, and the marriage is now low sex? And he is obviously unsatisfied with their sex life - he is not tempted to find a new woman? Too many KISAs in this world...and they get treated poorly because they accept that treatment..the Bh who stays in a low sex marriage is not some hero on the moral high ground he is a fool IMO..


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

karr99 said:


> Well, to know the chance of true remorse just enter SI Wayward Forum. They are doing great on the surface, they feel regret and empathy but boy, when the problem is getting serious, the true color emerge.
> 
> There's a serial cheater WH, had been cheating at least 4 times during 20 years of marriage. He feels betrayed (LOL) because his wife quit R after 8 months, he also feels angry because during those months he's worked so hard to change himself, even agreed to enter R without guarantee of forgiveness (he's entitled to it!) but wifey quits. WH also hopes to find happiness again in the future. It's all always been about him. What's even more sick is also almost everyone pat him on the back and said that he's been doing great job. One called his bullsh!t and off course, he got angry and he brought up everything that he had done again. I haven't visited that forum since


With the exception of one or two the waywards who post regularly at SI dont seem remorseful but in fact the opposite - prideful. Their selfishness emerges time and again when they post their rants about how "tough" their life is..I equate that to the WS burning down their home and then complaining they have to move. What drives me crazy is the BSs particularly the BHs who enable these cheaters and kiss their a$$ if their BS is being too "mean", WTF? The wayward forum is an eye opener - ever notice how the WS wants to be a victim as well? They always figure out a way to make it about them.

At to the WH whose wife dumped him 8 months out - boo hoo..i'm sure plenty of folks will send hugs his way..


----------



## Hexagon (Jun 20, 2017)

skb said:


> I am not a sociopath or a criminal!!!


I'm going to have to disagree with you there. 
If I were to be married and come home and see that my wife made tuna casserole or something trivial and proceeded to beat the snot out of her, it would be criminal. I would rightfully go to jail and we would divorce. It would be a rather easy divorce i suspect.
I'd be criminally abusive. 
Pretty black and white. (not getting into the discussion of why women stay in relationships like this.

But what about cheating. What about the long term damage this causes? This isn't a black eye that just goes away in a matter of days.
Its long term emotional abuse that sometimes never goes away? What about your own narcissistic tendencies? That too comes with an emotional abuse tag. The lies. The gaslighting. The discard. 
What you do destroys lives. 

Its long overdue that this be considered criminal. What about the mother that was mentioned that committed suicide? When someone causes that much pain and suffering to someone else, it needs to be recognized. There needs to be justice.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Hexagon said:


> When someone causes that much pain and suffering to someone else, it needs to be recognized. There needs to be justice.


Unfortunately there does not seem to be much justice in marriage and divorce law for many people.


----------



## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Cheaters not only cheat on their Bs but their WHOLE family. Their affair also damages their kids as well. How can they tell their kids to be respectful and honest with any credibility after destroying their family like that?


That's why when a BS says "WS cheated but is a good parent" it makes me fume.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Malaise said:


> That's why when a BS says "WS cheated but is a good parent" it makes me fume.


Like I stated earlier how can a WS tell their children with any credibility to be honest and respect other people when they cheat - especially if they are serial cheaters or had a LTA??


----------



## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> No they don't which is why *I feel zero sympathy for a cheater who becomes a madhatter *- I think every cheater should feel that sting of betrayal as punishment fot what they did - and they deserve to.


I'm confused.... don't you mean "I feel zero sympathy for a cheater whose BS becomes a madhatter"?

To a degree, those thoughts to run through my mind from time to time. I was out alone, at a concert club - drinking, enjoying the music for the band I paid to see. Some nice looking women out there. But that is not what I went out there for. My WW didn't attend because she doesn't like the band and stayed home with our kid. I got the show's timing off, so instead of coming home at 11, it was after 2am. Anyway - I did text as I was enjoying my drunk (I rarely drink at the moment) "I'm intoxicated and it feels odd to be clubbing alone and not out to pick up chicks" (like when I was single). She had no response to that one 

A) I can still perk some interests in women younger than my wife.
B) Ah, I have 30~40lbs to lose for my health, but would also make a severe difference in attracting the ladies since I can still pass for 37yrs old or so, as long as shave off my gray hairs 
C) UGH.... I do think I am better than that.
D) I am considering bringing this up on our next MC session.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TaDor said:


> I'm confused.... don't you mean "I feel zero sympathy for a cheater whose BS becomes a madhatter"?
> 
> To a degree, those thoughts to run through my mind from time to time. I was out alone, at a concert club - drinking, enjoying the music for the band I paid to see. Some nice looking women out there. But that is not what I went out there for. My WW didn't attend because she doesn't like the band and stayed home with our kid. I got the show's timing off, so instead of coming home at 11, it was after 2am. Anyway - I did text as I was enjoying my drunk (I rarely drink at the moment) "I'm intoxicated and it feels odd to be clubbing alone and not out to pick up chicks" (like when I was single). She had no response to that one
> 
> ...


I mean I have no sympathy for a cheater who gets cheated on - period. I've seen threads on other sites where WSs boldly declare they dont deserve to be BSs lol uh huh..sure...

If you didnt do anything when you were out - there is nothing to discuss...your WW crossed the line you didnt..

Another site has a "support" thread for WS's only - man is that an eye opener..it makes you truly believe even for those in R true remorse is indeed rare...these WWs who post in that thread are some pieces of work..nauseating..


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Malaise said:


> That's why when a BS says "WS cheated but is a good parent" it makes me fume.


Do you think infidelity should be factored into custody arrangements if a divorce occurs?


----------



## Dannip (Jun 13, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> If a person has sex once and immediately regrets it and comes clean to their spouse, takes full responsibility and then does all they can to rebuild the trust and be accountable, then I may believe that they are actually remorseful. If they went back and did it more than once, and were later found out, that is not remorse, that is being sorry you were found out.
> The times that a cheater is honest and tells their spouse are rare. The times that they have sex only once is rare. True remorse is rare.


I really like this statement. My confusion is that cheating would happen in the first place. True remorse would seem to be identifying a situation that you immediately extract yourself from and confess a close call before it happened. 

Is this a case of rationalizing a less rational act? Is cheating obeying simple genetic memory of reproducing? 

Have thousands of years shown us we as society are far more successful in monogamy. Raising family. Are social extremists tearing proven social fabric apart resulting in single families, less marriages, open relationships? Did the devil make them do it? (Flip Wilson...)

I don't R or accept cheating. I just moved on. 

I can control my urges.. generic memory to grab every babe in sight to reproduce/seduce have fun with and just focus that energy on the person I married. Ive resisted in-my face temptation more times I than can remember. These occurrences were not in inapproiate places. And while single or married. 

Being just being married did not somehow stop my ways. I never lived that way in the first place. So I expect the same from my spouse. 

There is no excuse for infidelity. I don't look For excuses or answers. For me, I move on. 

--

@tears married the right guy. He found he did not. He moved on. I can relate. Sympathy here for her is clear and strong. I have much more sympathy for her marriage and her husband. Sucks.. I don't know why it happened. She never will either. Perhaps her cake eating failed. Perhaps it was surrendering to genetic memory. Doesn't matter to me. 

Perhaps I'm just less gray area than others. Maybe that is a fault of mine. Ain't saying I am right or wrong. Just how I am. 

The BS should be able to freely decide for themselves all outcomes of a cheating spouse. Its the WS that is subject to consequences whatever they are. It's their lives. Too complex for a single answer. Just up to the BS and their heart.


----------



## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

I think so.

Infidelity should be a factor in how a divorce is handled. Just as proof is needed for physical assault or theft, evidence of infidelity SHOULD be allowed in court. "your wife cheated, she gets no alimony" and/or "she loses primary custody of children because of her actions shows she is not trustworthy".

Need to look as to why the laws on cheaters have changed in the 1970s. I think a LOT of cheater lawmakers (cough * congressmen * and *cough* local house reps*) are cheaters themselves and made laws to protect their own asses.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TaDor said:


> I think so.
> 
> Infidelity should be a factor in how a divorce is handled. Just as proof is needed for physical assault or theft, evidence of infidelity SHOULD be allowed in court. "your wife cheated, she gets no alimony" and/or "she loses primary custody of children because of her actions shows she is not trustworthy".
> 
> Need to look as to why the laws on cheaters have changed in the 1970s. I think a LOT of cheater lawmakers (cough * congressmen * and *cough* local house reps*) are cheaters themselves and made laws to protect their own asses.


Alimony should be out for a cheater and I think the divison of assets should favor the BS. I also support alienation of affection laws so you can sue the AP. Those too have been abolished in many jurisdictions. Not much justice in divorce law.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Alimony should be out for a cheater and I think the divison of assets should favor the BS. I also support alienation of affection laws so you can sue the AP. Those too have been abolished in many jurisdictions. Not much justice in divorce law.


... and if betrayal is proven, the wayward should also be financially liable for all the expenses required to prove the betrayal (private eye, VAR, software, etc).


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> ... and if betrayal is proven, the wayward should also be financially liable for all the expenses required to prove the betrayal (private eye, VAR, software, etc).


Agree...from personal experience and from reading here and elsewhere true R from a WS is rare - ever read a WS self-righteously declare what good people they are? I've seen entire threads started by a WS letting other WSs know what good people they are. WTF?? I read one WS whose BS had an Ra and said they would have refused R if their Bs didn't admit they were wrong for having an RA...See how that works - it is always about them....


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agree...from personal experience and from reading here and elsewhere true R from a WS is rare - ever read a WS self-righteously declare what good people they are?


I usually don't read the Wayward crap because it bores me.

But I read a lot of BS posts who have 'reconciled' and they always claim their cheater is "truly remorseful." LOL. I think the term for that "remorse" should _actually_ be, "my cheater is towing the line but has likely just become sneakier at cheating, and is behaving the way I want them to because they're afraid to be kicked out on their ass which is what they deserve."


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I usually don't read the Wayward crap because it bores me.
> 
> But I read a lot of BS posts who have 'reconciled' and they always claim their cheater is "truly remorseful." LOL. I think the term for that "remorse" should _actually_ be, "my cheater is towing the line but has likely just become sneakier at cheating, and is behaving the way I want them to because they're afraid to be kicked out on their ass which is what they deserve."


If these folks are so healed and reconciled why are they haunting an infidelity board 10, 20 years later telling people about how great R is. The affair has obviously become a major part of their identity IMO. If your H or W cheated many years ago and you are still around - you are not healed IMO.

There is a WS only support thread - the amount of whining that goes on there is sickening. They complain about being called bad names after having an affair - in some cases multiple affairs. Are you f***ing serious? They like to throw the word "abuse" around as if being a serial cheater or having a LTA is not abuse? They whine about being isolated or that their BS is still mean to them. Its a pity party of people who made their own mess. It makes me realize the selfishness of the WS is really deep and rooting that out is very rare. So instead of taking a lover they get ego kibbles from other waywards and BSs online - that is still wayward behavior IMO.

What WSs don't realize is they have no credibility when discussing the morality of RAs, boundaries in marriage, etc.. The WS seems to set boundaries if they don't want to become a BS - see how that works? Then they pass it off as self-improvident and not hypocrisy The only thing that is perhaps almost as annoying is the BSs who enable them at that site.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Hexagon said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
> If I were to be married and come home and see that my wife made tuna casserole or something trivial and proceeded to beat the snot out of her, it would be criminal. I would rightfully go to jail and we would divorce. It would be a rather easy divorce i suspect.
> I'd be criminally abusive.
> Pretty black and white. (not getting into the discussion of why women stay in relationships like this.
> ...


Yes that was my mother, and as you can imagine the fall out has greatly affected me and my brother also and my children who lost a wonderful grandmother when they were small. The ripples from adultery go out and damage so many. Its the most selfish cruel action.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

karr99 said:


> Well, to know the chance of true remorse just enter SI Wayward Forum. They are doing great on the surface, they feel regret and empathy but boy, when the problem is getting serious, the true color emerge.
> 
> There's a serial cheater WH, had been cheating at least 4 times during 20 years of marriage. He feels betrayed (LOL) because his wife quit R after 8 months, he also feels angry because during those months he's worked so hard to change himself, even agreed to enter R without guarantee of forgiveness (he's entitled to it!) but wifey quits. WH also hopes to find happiness again in the future. It's all always been about him. What's even more sick is also almost everyone pat him on the back and said that he's been doing great job. One called his bullsh!t and off course, he got angry and he brought up everything that he had done again. I haven't visited that forum since


 Good for her, I am amazed that she stayed that long.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Good for her, I am amazed that she stayed that long.


 @karr99 @Diana7 The BS at SI are as frustrating to read as the WSs. You know what you are dealing with when a BS whose WS had a multiyear affair is now making improvements and realize they have other options besides their WS. Well the "do gooders" at SI scream boundaries and tell the BS to treat their WS like a precious gem or some such nonesense andto mind their boundaries. When the first question would be - you just admitted your WS sabotaged your improvement for years and had lots of sex with their AP why are you staying? Dont you want to explore your options now? Is that being a good person or just a doormat?


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Yes that was my mother, and as you can imagine the fall out has greatly affected me and my brother also and my children who lost a wonderful grandmother when they were small. The ripples from adultery go out and damage so many. Its the most selfish cruel action.


Yes it is - which is why for the lif eof me I can not understand when people R with a serial cheater or a cheater who has a LTA that means they are getting away with it on some level. And I dont believe this bullsh!t that the WS will have to look in the mirror - please spare me that load of junk.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Hexagon said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
> If I were to be married and come home and see that my wife made tuna casserole or something trivial and proceeded to beat the snot out of her, it would be criminal. I would rightfully go to jail and we would divorce. It would be a rather easy divorce i suspect.
> I'd be criminally abusive.
> Pretty black and white. (not getting into the discussion of why women stay in relationships like this.
> ...


I've never cheated on any of my sexual partners and ended my marital relationship with my first wife very swiftly following her revelation of marital infidelity. 

That said I don't think marital infidelity is abuse at all, nor do I think my ex-wife's behaviour was criminal.

In my opinion people who commit suicide over such things or never get over it. Are evidently not very resilient and probably also suffer from a mental illness. Since such responses are out of all proportion to the act of itself, which is clearly demonstrative of not having a healthy psyche to begin with.

As I recall it sure sux when it happens, yet it certainly wasn't the end of the world. When my ex-wife cheated on me, I ended our relationship and got on with my life without her. Life is far easier when one doesn't tolerate such nonsense and chooses not to keep sleeping with someone who has chosen to become the enemy.

As best as I can recall since it happened over 26 years ago, within hours of her confession I walked away. Then at her begging through a few weeks I dated her a bit to see if we could work it out, and even had sex with her twice. Which saw me realise I hated her entire being for her betrayal, so I called her all sorts of nasty things when we finished having sex for the last time and that was the end of it.

Yet I didn't mope around, resort to hyperbole and didn't think all women were bad. I just got on with my life after taking a couple of weeks to gather myself. Then after a few months started easily having sex with other women. Some of whom I had ongoing relationships with, which includes my current (2nd) wife who I have been married to for 18 years, following starting to date her 21 years ago.

If my current wife cheats on me and I find out about it, I have no doubt it will suck. Yet at the same time I also have no doubt, I'll dust myself off, get on with my life and subsequently enjoy other sexual partners.

Life goes on for those who are still alive.

At the end of the day good relationships are very easy, it's the bad ones that are hard work.

When a sexual relationship is easy you're with someone who is on the same page, enjoys your company and is sexually attracted to you. If one doesn't have those things, they're evidently in the wrong sexual relationship with the wrong person/s.

What one chooses to do when faced with wrong is up to them. For me though since I am not a masochist, I'm not inclined to tolerate wrong for very long.

Funnily enough one of my siblings is married to a woman who had a kid with another partner before they were together. Anyway a few years ago she left him out of the blue with no warning, for I don't know maybe a couple of months (or three?). To shack up with the father of her first child in another state, while abandoning her husband and their kids. Then she came home after her ex got sick of her and kicked her out. The kicker is my brother at our mother's pleading took her back... WTF???!!!

The thing is although I find my sister-in-vlie's conduct reprehensible. I am more unimpressed by my brothers weakness for accepting that **** sandwich with glee. And am disgusted with my mother for finding her favourite daughter-in-trailer's behaviour okay as well.

The human animal isn't a monogamous species, so having sex with others will always be inherent amongst us. Non-monogamy isn't just infidelity or poly-whatever through to so all of the so called serial monogamists (which is anyone who has had more than one sexual partner married or otherwise) aren't really monogamous at all. Monogamy is a choice, just as fidelity which is not limited to monogamy is also a choice.

So we should still encourage fidelity whether monogamous or otherwise all while appreciating that sometimes the wheels will come off for some people without criminalising such indiscretion.

At the end of the day when someone finds themselves on the wrong end of a betrayal. The best they can and ought to do, is seek support and solace from friends, family or anyone else who is so inclined. Then pick themselves up and get on with their life.

On the other hand if someone finds they aren't coping, lack perspective, are not resilient and or are prone to or suffer from mental illness. They should also seek some professional help to get over that which isn't world ending and invest themselves in getting a grip.

Likewise the best anyone can do when offering support and solace. Is to commiserate with them, offer sound practical actionable advice if they have any. And help the betrayed to get over it while not indulging hyperbolic nonsense by helping them to have a grip.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Reference the above I just want to make it clear one should not feel weak, embarrassed or ashamed for seeking professional help. We're social creatures, so getting help when you need it is a very natural and healthy approach to moving forward positively.


----------



## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

Personal said:


> That said I don't think marital infidelity is abuse at all, nor do I think my ex-wife's behaviour was criminal.


If only there were punishment for emotional abuse then infidelity is definitely one. Gas-lighting, name calling, silent treatment, etc. The sex itself is probably not the worst part, for some people, the worst part is when the WSs treat the BSs like they're lower than sh!t. 




Personal said:


> Yet I didn't mope around, resort to hyperbole and didn't think all women were bad. I just got on with my life after taking a couple of weeks to gather myself. Then after a few months started easily having sex with other women. Some of whom I had ongoing relationships with, which includes my current (2nd) wife who I have been married to for 18 years, following starting to date her 21 years ago.


Good for you, i'm happy that you walked away easier than most. I hope infidelity isn't such a hurtful thing but again, for many (that i've read and i've witnessed) it is a hurtful and traumatic thing. Some people had already received such emotional battering from the WS that infidelity can be their last stab to the heart. 

I know a lot of BSs were told by society or their WSs that they made WSs cheated on them, which is no difference when someone told a woman that they got raped because their skirt is too short or their shirt is too tight. Infidelity is a tragic thing that would change any BSs either for the better or the worse, and those ignorant people just kept adding salt to their wound won't do any good to BSs condition. 



Personal said:


> At the end of the day when someone finds themselves on the wrong end of a betrayal. The best they can and ought to do, is seek support and solace from friends, family or anyone else who is so inclined. Then pick themselves up and get on with their life
> On the other hand if someone finds they aren't coping, lack perspective, are not resilient and or are prone to or suffer from mental illness. They should also seek some professional help to get over that which isn't world ending and invest themselves in getting a grip.


Easy to say, hard to do. I don't know why but i found your post to be boastful and lack of sympathy


----------



## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

Truthseeker1 said:


> @karr99 @Diana7 The BS at SI are as frustrating to read as the WSs. You know what you are dealing with when a BS whose WS had a multiyear affair is now making improvements and realize they have other options besides their WS. Well the "do gooders" at SI scream boundaries and tell the BS to treat their WS like a precious gem or some such nonesense andto mind their boundaries. When the first question would be - you just admitted your WS sabotaged your improvement for years and had lots of sex with their AP why are you staying? Dont you want to explore your options now? Is that being a good person or just a doormat?


I clicked a thread called "Will I forever pay the price" below in similar threads list, now that's the BS whose reason i'd really like to know. The wife was having sex with her side piece on her marital bed(!) while on the phone with her husband and her boytoy laughed(!) at her oblivious husband yet she continued to cheat until she got caught, husband stayed btw. Hands down, one of the worst i've ever read


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

karr99 said:


> I clicked a thread called "Will I forever pay the price" below in similar threads list, now that's the BS whose reason i'd really like to know. The wife was having sex with her side piece on her marital bed(!) while on the phone with her husband and her boytoy laughed(!) at her oblivious husband yet she continued to cheat until she got caught, husband stayed btw. Hands down, one of the worst i've ever read


The other BSs at SI rarely question another BSs desire to stay but will torment them if they entertain getting any justice. To me that encourages doormat behavior. If your WW is sleeping with another man for years, sabotages your own efforts to improve and you R without any consequences for her and the best advice you get is treat her like she is a queen and watch your boundaries - that to me is nonsense. Absolute nonsense. They should be asking the BH why is he so afraid to explore his other options - because a spouse who cheats on you for years and years is not precious but actually the complete opposite.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> And I dont believe this bullsh!t that the WS will have to look in the mirror - please spare me that load of junk.


LOL. The only time a cheater looks in the mirror is to make sure their hair and/or makeup (if applicable) looks ok before they run off to meet their affair partner. :rofl:

Speaking of Waywards, did you see the ruckus one of them caused recently when they DARED to be honest in the Reconciliation forum? A BS was wondering if she could believe the bull**** her WS had fed her about the sex with his NUMEROUS OWs as not being very good and it was boring, etc. LOL. Yeah, _sure_ it was. That's one of the biggest lies cheaters tell their BS's. Gimme a break.

Anyway, BS's and WS's were encouraged to reply, so a trying-to-reconcile WW posted and was honest about her experience - that sex with her affair partner had been the hottest sex she'd ever had. Oh BOY you should have seen all the ruffled tail feathers over THAT! Their argument is that once a cheater is 'truly remorseful,' it should automatically make them 'sick' to think about it and think the sex they had was '*disgusting*.' Where do they GET this delusional **** from? An experience is an experience - period. The cheater might regret it and might have empathy that it caused their BS pain but it isn't going to *change* the fundamental experience they had.

They're delusional. Truly delusional.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> LOL. The only time a cheater looks in the mirror is to make sure their hair and/or makeup (if applicable) looks ok before they run off to meet their affair partner. :rofl:
> 
> Speaking of Waywards, did you see the ruckus one of them caused recently when they DARED to be honest in the Reconciliation forum? A BS was wondering if she could believe the bull**** her WS had fed her about the sex with his NUMEROUS OWs as not being very good and it was boring, etc. LOL. Yeah, _sure_ it was. That's one of the biggest lies cheaters tell their BS's. Gimme a break.
> 
> ...


The mirror comment came from a BH - after another BH wondered what consequences his WW had after having as he put it *"a lot of sex with her AP for years"* - she got no consequences - kept her family, lifestyle, everything so some [email protected] Bh chimes in and says well she has to look in the mirror and that can be tough. WTF???? Are you kidding me? The BH was right his WW got no consequences and that is on him - no matter what his group of enablers say to boost his ego. His WW is getting nervous because other women are looking at him now after he improved himself and instead of encouraging him to explore his options and have some self-respect they encouraged him to roll over. What a group...

I did see that thread - I agree that the Ws is not going to shoot themselves in the foot and admit it was hot and exciting. Of course it was. Lots of folks in denial there. If your WS kept going back to their AP for any length of time -hello they enjoyed it. They enjoyed being with their AP sexually as well as emotionally. Period. They downplay it because they dont want the consequences. Those folks who buy this line from their Ws - "hony I screwed my AP for years but it was - meh. Well I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. SMH.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Personal said:


> I've never cheated on any of my sexual partners and ended my marital relationship with my first wife very swiftly following her revelation of marital infidelity.
> 
> That said I don't think marital infidelity is abuse at all, nor do I think my ex-wife's behaviour was criminal.
> 
> ...


My mother was not as you describe. The long long affair led to severe depression. She did not have it before.She was the most loving, sweet, forgiving lady I have ever met. She was also a lady who had been through bed things in life and was tough. I can completely see how an affair can lead to suicide. I know people who had severe breakdowns after discovering their spouse's affair.One spent months in a mental hospital.Previously they were normal emotionally healthy people.
Its a cruel appalling thing to do.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> My mother was not as you describe. The long long affair led to severe depression. She did not have it before.She was the most loving, sweet, forgiving lady I have ever met. I can completely see how an affair can lead to suicude. I know people who had severe breakdowns after discovering their spouse's affair.One spent months in a mental hospital.Previously they were normal emotionally healthy people.
> Its a cruel appalling thing to do.


Its abuse - and one of the worst forms of abuse at that. The one thing I tell BSs - no sh!tty WS is worth your love or your life - not one of them. They arent precious snowflakes but extremely self-centered a-holes.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Its abuse - and one of the worst forms of abuse at that. The one thing I tell BSs - no sh!tty WS is worth your love or your life - not one of them. They arent precious snowflakes but extremely self-centered a-holes.


 I agree, it's terrible abuse.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I agree, it's terrible abuse.


And then to whine about how tough life is after you devastate someone else really p!sses me off....all the Wss wounds post d-day are self-inflicted.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> LOL. The only time a cheater looks in the mirror is to make sure their hair and/or makeup (if applicable) looks ok before they run off to meet their affair partner. :rofl:
> 
> Speaking of Waywards, did you see the ruckus one of them caused recently when they DARED to be honest in the Reconciliation forum? A BS was wondering if she could believe the bull**** her WS had fed her about the sex with his NUMEROUS OWs as not being very good and it was boring, etc. LOL. Yeah, _sure_ it was. That's one of the biggest lies cheaters tell their BS's. Gimme a break.
> 
> ...


Good sex or bad sex...they had sex, end of story. Even if the sex did indeed end up being bad they did it with every intent to have "great" sex. As a bs this was a question I never pondered or worried about. If we had tried to R and I heard some rhetoric of the sex was bad l would have pretty quickly lost any faith in an R attempt. 

What am I supposed to feel bad if the sex wasn't great? Give me a break....


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

honcho said:


> Good sex or bad sex...they had sex, end of story. Even if the sex did indeed end up being bad they did it with every intent to have "great" sex. As a bs this was a question I never pondered or worried about. If we had tried to R and I heard some rhetoric of the sex was bad l would have pretty quickly lost any faith in an R attempt.
> 
> What am I supposed to feel bad if the sex wasn't great? Give me a break....


Good point as if "bad sex" makes it somehow less of an affair? lol But to have a LTA and say it was - meh - bullsh!t...they liked what they were doing and if the A went on for years they liked it a lot.


----------



## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> And then to whine about how tough life is after you devastate someone else really p!sses me off....all the Wss wounds post d-day are self-inflicted.


Yep! It has been 10 years now since my H admitted to cheating. The first 5 years after, I kept it all inside, didn't tell a soul and he and I never talked about it. In other words, a complete rug sweep. Our sex life had come to a complete stop, but from the outside we looked like any other normal married couple with 3 children and two jobs. He was sleeping on the couch in the basement, but the excuse for that was his back. 

I eventually drifted into an EA and then it all blew up when he found out by spying on me. His hypocrisy enraged me and still does and his declaration that he now loves me rang hollow and is insulting because it's just his wounded pride. I think many WS don't give a crap about their BS until they think they may leave or until the BS engages in a RA. 

We are now in crisis again and he has now, finally, taken full responsibility for the fiasco that our marriage has become and offered to move out. One of the things he said to me when we had our last discussion was that he thought what he was doing back then was a "logical" way to deal with his frustration with the amount of sex we were having. We were still intimate, just not as much as he wanted. I physically recoiled from that choice of words when he said that. In a text exchange just a few days ago my H said that he was "very hurt" by my actions. My response: "If you are hurt because of my actions, then I would say that this is your consequence for throwing away your wife. You walked away from me long before I did the same and then you were surprised and hurt that I formed an attachment to someone else. In all your logical thinking, you didn't count on that, did you?" 

I haven't heard back from him since.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

blahfridge said:


> Yep! It has been 10 years now since my H admitted to cheating. The first 5 years after, I kept it all inside, didn't tell a soul and he and I never talked about it. In other words, a complete rug sweep. Our sex life had come to a complete stop, but from the outside we looked like any other normal married couple with 3 children and two jobs. He was sleeping on the couch in the basement, but the excuse for that was his back.
> 
> I eventually drifted into an EA and then it all blew up when he found out by spying on me. *His hypocrisy enraged me and still does* and his declaration that he now loves me rang hollow and is insulting because it's just his wounded pride. I think many WS don't give a crap about their BS until they think they may leave or until the BS engages in a RA.
> 
> ...


The hypocrisy would enrage me too. Ive read WSs boldly declare how wrong RAs are and how wrong infidelity is - its convenient they came to that conclusion after their fun was over. Some declare they wont forgive the same transgression - now that is some brass plated hypocrisy right there. the WS doesnt count on the Bs finding someone else. They never count on the BS leaving do they?

I wonder how many couples supposedly in R eventually break up when the Bs is no longer in shock and has their confidence back. I also wonder how common situations like yours are - where after years of the WS skating through life post dday the BS finds someone else and has their own dalliance. It makes sense - we all get tempted from time to time but when a Bs gets tempted they cant think oh my WS would never do that to me - because they know that is untrue.

The Ws burns the house down and then complains they have to move. SMH.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> And then to whine about how tough life is after you devastate someone else really p!sses me off....all the Wss wounds post d-day are self-inflicted.


Yes its completely unbelievable.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Yes its completely unbelievable.


I think it demonstrates how it is always about them. Always. Ever read about Wss insecurity after dday? They accuse their Bs of cheating or wanting to leave them. A few BHs on another site wrote that their WWs worried that they would abandon them as they aged. Can you believe that level of self-centeredness? Not only do WSs seek pleasure in the moment but worry about where their a$$ might end up years down the line when they are old an unattractive. The Bhs assured them they would stay - I would have been a real a$$ and said it depend what you look like. But Im not a nice person. lol


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

honco said:


> What am I supposed to feel bad if the sex wasn't great? Give me a break....


No, the cheater is actually trying to make their BS feel better that 'sex was nothing special' because if most of them told the truth, their BS would be devastated, the cheater would have to work 50 times harder and longer to get back in their BS's good graces, and quite possibly it might shut down the" hysterical bonding" sex the lying cheater's been getting every night. That's some reward for being a cheating scum, ain't it? Sex on tap at home. Smh

There is not ONE advantage to a cheater EVER admitting to their BS that the sex was some of the best they ever had. Not *one *single advantage so most claim it wasn't good. That's why most BS's post gloatingly about how their WS didn't enjoy it and it was nothing like it is at home and all that crap - because they actually believe the bill of goods they were sold by their cheater. :awink:


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> No, the cheater is actually trying to make their BS feel better that 'sex was nothing special' because if most of them told the truth, their BS would be devastated, the cheater would have to work 50 times harder and longer to get back in their BS's good graces, and quite possibly it might shut down the" hysterical bonding" sex the lying cheater's been getting every night. That's some reward for being a cheating scum, ain't it? Sex on tap at home. Smh
> 
> There is not ONE advantage to a cheater EVER admitting to their BS that the sex was some of the best they ever had. Not *one *single advantage so most claim it wasn't good. That's why most BS's post gloatingly about how their WS didn't enjoy it and it was nothing like it is at home and all that crap - because they actually believe the bill of goods they were sold by their cheater. :awink:


The advantage is its an honest answer despite how much it may hurt the BS. An R can only be successful in the long run with honesty. If the WS was sincerely remorseful theyd lay all the cards on the table in order to try and rebuild. The cheater isn't trying to make anyone feel good with a nonesense lie, it pure damage control and "hoping"to not get in more hot water with the truth. It's telling people what they want to hear and personally that drives me nuts when people do that.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think it demonstrates how it is always about them. Always. Ever read about Wss insecurity after dday? They accuse their Bs of cheating or wanting to leave them. A few BHs on another site wrote that their WWs worried that they would abandon them as they aged. Can you believe that level of self-centeredness? Not only do WSs seek pleasure in the moment but worry about where their a$$ might end up years down the line when they are old an unattractive. The Bhs assured them they would stay - I would have been a real a$$ and said it depend what you look like. But Im not a nice person. lol


For me the trust would be shattered and I doubt I could have sex again with a cheater. Adultery shatters the marriage covenant. I have no idea some stay with a cheater, especially if the affair was long or there were many affairs.I think for many it's through fear of being alone and the drastic changes that divorce would bring.


----------



## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> ... and if betrayal is proven, the wayward should also be financially liable for all the expenses required to prove the betrayal (private eye, VAR, software, etc).


And for medical expenses too! Loss of work... Hell, people get money from emotional damage for mundane things.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> No, the cheater is actually trying to make their BS feel better that 'sex was nothing special' because if most of them told the truth, their BS would be devastated, the cheater would have to work 50 times harder and longer to get back in their BS's good graces, and quite possibly it might shut down the" hysterical bonding" sex the lying cheater's been getting every night. That's some reward for being a cheating scum, ain't it? Sex on tap at home. Smh
> 
> There is not ONE advantage to a cheater EVER admitting to their BS that the sex was some of the best they ever had. Not *one *single advantage so most claim it wasn't good. That's why most BS's post gloatingly about how their WS didn't enjoy it and it was nothing like it is at home and all that crap - because they actually believe the bill of goods they were sold by their cheater. :awink:


Agree 100% - if the cheater is about to get everything back why screw that up? Look every BS needs to accept that if your spouse had an affair where they went back more than once be it a few months to a few years - they enjoyed being with their AP and enjoyed the sex as well. Period. If some BS believes their WS had a multiyear affair and didnt enjoy sex with the AP they are deluding themselves. Which is why I say when you R with a serial cheater or a cheater who has had a LTA - they are essentially getting away with it. They keep their life in tact and had their few years of fun on the side. And if someone tells me my Ws "feels bad" - please - they are hating the consequences - who likes negative consequences? 



honcho said:


> The advantage is its an honest answer despite how much it may hurt the BS. An R can only be successful in the long run with honesty. If the WS was sincerely remorseful theyd lay all the cards on the table in order to try and rebuild. The cheater isn't trying to make anyone feel good with a nonesense lie, it pure damage control and "hoping"to not get in more hot water with the truth. It's telling people what they want to hear and personally that drives me nuts when people do that.


But @honcho remember this - the quality of the sex is the one lie a WS can tell that can not be disproved. Think about this case sceanrio - a WW has an affair for a few years - gets caught. Now she is desperate to save her family and keep her lifestyle - well what is the one sure way to boost her husbands broken ego? The sex was meh - it is better with you. How can the Bh ever prove the opposite? Most WSs are not interested in giving away the full truth they are interested in getting away with it. Period. And many WSs who R do get away with it. We see it everyday. @chumplady is right true remorse from a WS in unlikely. They tend to be selfish and entitled people to begin with. 

the Bs needs to accept that R involves them getting away with it on some level. I do wonder how many BSs end up leaving years later.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> For me the trust would be shattered and I doubt I could have sex again with a cheater. Adultery shatters the marriage covenant. I have no idea some stay with a cheater, especially if the affair was long or there were many affairs.I think for many it's through fear of being alone and the drastic changes that divorce would bring.


The LTA and serial cheatingthing baffles me as well. Your spouse has essentially had another wife or husband for years. i've read cases where the Ws had an affair for 10 or 15 years. What is there left to save? And if you do R what do you have? A spouse who lied and cheated for years and repeatedly had sex with another person - sometimes in your own home and even your own bed. I do think it is fear and a lack of belief in themselves. The Ws gets to have their multiyear affair and then skate back into the marriage - maybe they feel bad but it is nothing like the burden the BS has to carry. Nothing.


----------



## Hexagon (Jun 20, 2017)

Personal said:


> That said I don't think marital infidelity is abuse at all, nor do I think my ex-wife's behaviour was criminal.


Maybe not in every single case but it can be. If you have children, I would go so far as to call it child abuse. 
I can tell how it sometimes works or at least from my experience.

You have met the single best person you have ever met. This person shares your interests, sense of humor, is passionate, and damn near everything about them is perfection personified and created just to match you.
You have never met anyone even remotely close to this person in terms of companionship. You are so enamored that you want to spend every second you can with them. You can laugh or discuss ANYTHING. You seldom argue (if ever). They mirror this feeling back to you. Life has never been more wonderful.

Early on, you feel something isn't right at times. You can't put your finger on it but you know something just doesn't jive.
You can sometimes notice little things that in and of themselves, mean nothing. Almost not worth the effort to say something.
Just a comment here or a bizarre action there. 
But being a good spouse/partner, you communicate. You discuss as an adult and describe what you think and feel. 
You're told that you're jumping at shadows. Or, you're told that you're paranoid. Maybe you're told that you're too sensitive. Ok that seems acceptable. You're not being accusatory, you just know that....something felt..."off".
But thats ok. You've been wrong before and it takes an adult to admit you were wrong. 
Its becoming evident that something may in fact, be wrong with you. Alone, they would mean nothing, but its starting to build. The more it builds, the more "paranoid" you become. 
You're slowly being conditioned to not trust yourself, your own judgement, or your own thoughts. Think of the frog in heated water. 
*Now multiply this by months or years*. The longer it goes on, the more insidious it will become.

Lets now add a dash of lies.
"You said......"
You don't remember saying it. Its out of context so it doesn't feel right but.....
"You don't remember a whole lot".
Or
"you don't remember me doing/saying"?
No....no you don't. You're starting to wonder if you ARE crazy. Its a good thing you're with this person because they know and understand all of the things thats wrong with you. 

You don't have any proof that anything has happened. You have essentially nothing but a scratch at the back of your head that you can't reach. 
Save that for later.
Now lets add in another mixture to the narcissistic formula.
"When you were single.....X,Y,Z was wrong. You totally needed a woman to fix things up".
"I don't like it when you do the dishes, you can't load the dishwasher right".
"Don't touch the laundry. You mess it up".
"Don't bother with that, I like it done right".
"You shouldn't hold the syringe like that, it will hurt more". (I take daily blood thinners)
"You really should do {A, B, C}".
Now you're being conditioned to feel as if you're not adequate or can't do or act correctly. Again, the frog in the water. 
You don't know its happening, but it is and it works amazingly well if done over *years*. 

Now those are just examples and it doesn't happen daily....or even a whole lot. Lets say 95% of your life with this person is wonderful. You just get these sprinkles of discontent on occasion. This is still the same person you know to be the perfect person....at least for you. Although you're occasionally being told that.....you will seldom do things correctly or make the best choices (over trivial matters mind you), you think, "well, I can get better for this person".
They still claim to admire you and adore you so....typical marriage I guess. 

Now lets say the affair does happen or rather, THEY GET CAUGHT. Out of the blue, the rug has been pulled out from under you. 
Years of what you've been conditioned to think is now your worst enemy. 
"Maybe this is my fault. Maybe if I would have been a better man, she wouldn't have strayed. Maybe my paranoia drove her into the arms of another. I just need to be better".
Having children just compounds this.
"I need to be better for my child(ren)". My kids NEED me to be better".
"I cannot let my kids down any more".

Now, all that you know is that your over sensitivity, paranoia, failure to do anything right, etc has caused this to happen. YOU are YOUR own worst enemy.
So you stay. To be better. To be a good father. 
"She is really sincere and made a mistake. That doesn't make her a bad person".

At this point, you don't know any better.
You work harder and do your best. She admitted fault, now its your turn to admit YOUR faults.

Repeat the cycle above and this time, crank up the intensity from the very top. You went from being the best friend and lover they claimed to have ever had to a broke (if they take the money like mine) enemy. You went from having a family that wasn't perfect but really nice to nothing. You and your children will suffer for this indiscretion. 

This. Is. Abuse.

From the outside you would think, how in the world could you allow it?
Because it's gradual. If you jumped right into a relationship and you were in the middle phase, you'd reject it.
It takes time and conditioning and it's by far and away, the most painful thing I have ever experienced by a long shot.


----------



## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> There is not ONE advantage to a cheater EVER admitting to their BS that the sex was some of the best they ever had. Not *one *single advantage so most claim it wasn't good. That's why most BS's post gloatingly about how their WS didn't enjoy it and it was nothing like it is at home and all that crap - because they actually believe the bill of goods they were sold by their cheat





honcho said:


> The advantage is its an honest answer despite how much it may hurt the BS. An R can only be successful in the long run with honesty. If the WS was sincerely remorseful theyd lay all the cards on the table in order to try and rebuild. The cheater isn't trying to make anyone feel good with a nonesense lie, it pure damage control and "hoping"to not get in more hot water with the truth. It's telling people what they want to hear and personally that drives me nuts when people do that.


Agreed. I don't want to hear want I want to hear... I want the truth... as much as possible (Its reasonable to be fuzzy on some things - we all are). But saying "I blew him 20 times but I hated it every time" is a load of crap.

My WW did admit to our MC and to me that her AP was good at what he does... him being almost 25yrs younger and not much bigger than her - allowed him to bang like a jack rabbit... but otherwise no other skills in the bedroom. IE: fast at the in and out... so get her a vibrator. Can't afford a Symbian. ( LOL ) Because of her injury, his smaller size makes things easier on her. I'm 45lbs over-weright... even when I get down to a proper weight - I am a LARGE guy, it would be helpful and benifical to my health as well.

There are women in my past that have done things more exciting than my wife as well... but doesn't mean I want my wife any less.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TaDor said:


> But saying "I blew him 20 times but I hated it every time" is a load of crap.


But this is in fact what man WSs do - for any Bs to believe that their WS kept going back to their AP and didnt like it well then they are delusional. If your WS shags someone repeatedly well yeah they liked it. And if they do things for the AP they didnt do for you - well perhaps they were more into the AP sexually than they are you.

I read one [email protected] WW on another forum put it this way - yeah they were into their AP and sexually it was exciting in bed but their BH had the whole package and that is why they chose them. Because in her mind the BH was worth more overall than just fun in the sack. She wrote this as if it was some f**king prize to be chosen by a WW. Here husband got back a damaged spouse IMO not some precious prize. What this told me is she knew her BH was a doormat she could control so why give that up? And some of the BHs seem to eat that sh!t up.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Using this logic shouldn't the default advice be empowerment to move on. Which is exactly why that is my default advice almost always. Just seems unfair to give people hope when there is a 5% chance.


Actually, it's not "US" that give people "hope". Rather they show up here and other forums with a big old tub of their own hope. They bring hope with them or they wouldn't bother looking for help {packing up and leaving really isn't that hard to figure out and follow through on}. I don't agree with AffairCares assessment that only 5% truly ever repent. That may be the number that a place like SI tries to achieve or what happens in her private practice but in my world and in real life it's probably more like 50%. 

These are all just random guesses but I'm going off my experience with real couples in real life situations, who are mostly active Christians and usually {but not always} already coming forward for help as a couple.

But regardless if the number is 5% or 20% or 50% the default advice should remain the same because:

1. There's no way to determine up front which waywards are the ones that will eventually repent {sure WE can eyeball the ones that appear easier or harder but still can't predict it - take affaircare, we both seem to agree she's repentant but wouldn't you think a family and marriage counselor that deals with this stuff day in and day out would be pretty culpable and just too cruel to recover with? It's not like she had the excuse that it just happened, she KNEW what she was doing having delt with this issue as a counselor for years prior to that and having dealt with her ex-husband's affair - I shudder to consider the reception she'd get here today if she had arrived here as a new wayward trying to save her family in this environment};

2. the betrayed is SEEKING help saving his/her marriage and will just simply move on or ignore your "default" always divorce advice; 

3. this forum was founded on the premise and the forum rules say "Affairs are very destructive. But relationships can, and do recover from them. Be supportive of those choosing to make that effort"; and, 

4. Giving such betrayed spouse the most aggressive advice to push the agenda to actually save his/her marriage and get his spouse to repent actually results in the quickest resolution in the greatest number of situations.

The BEST save your marriage advice is actually the BEST divorce advice at the same time because they'll do it. They'll actually take action and each action empowers them to take the next action until, at some point soon, the situation resolves itself one way or another {reconciliation leading to repentance or divorce}.

Simply telling people to divorce and ALL waywards suck forever and never truly become remorseful will just send them away shopping for what they want to hear {and they'll inevitably end up at SI perpetuating that limbo encouraging wayward loving hellhole}.

Finally, forums aren't real life. Getting all your knowledge and experience regarding infidelity from SI, loveshack or even here isn't real life. Very few, if any, fully repentant spouses would actually stick around an infidelity forum indefinitely. It's not a healthy place for them. Maybe for a season or two as a way to try to pay it forward or something but long-term wayward posters just don't make sense. A fully repentant former wayward spouse understands fully how horrible and destructive their choices are and were and will be disgusted by them, just as I'm disgusted by the sins I've come to repent for in my life {even if I enjoyed them at the time}. There's no sense in a wayward sticking around here or any infidelity forum trying to rationalize or justify their behavior. Their posts will be picked apart and the dislike and distrust they see here was earned and doesn't deserve to be defended.  If anyone wants to hate my wife for what she did two decades ago that's their right. I/we don't have to stick around and allow her to be berated but that doesn't happen in real life. People are much bolder with a keyboard but we're sure there are some couples, women and men that maybe don't take kindly to us/her after we share our testimony. That's fine. Them are the consequences. None of us can control the consequences of our behavior but we are all unworthy of forgiveness ~ not just waywards. What is the likelihood that any of us will be sufficiently remorseful and repentant for our own sins?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> Actually, it's not "US" that give people "hope". Rather they show up here and other forums with a big old tub of their own hope. They bring hope with them or they wouldn't bother looking for help {packing up and leaving really isn't that hard to figure out and follow through on}. I don't agree with AffairCares assessment that only 5% truly ever repent. That may be the number that a place like SI tries to achieve or what happens in her private practice but in my world and in real life it's probably more like 50%.
> 
> These are all just random guesses but I'm going off my experience with real couples in real life situations, who are mostly active Christians and usually {but not always} already coming forward for help as a couple.
> 
> ...


No one is saying you can't post and advocate for R. You seem to be saying people like me should not post saying the BS may be making a mistake. This is pretty hypocritical. I do agree that most people come on here with their mind already made up. But then what is the harm if I or others say to them, think about what you are resigning yourself to, who it really is you are going to be spending the rest of your life with, and that there is a possibility that in a few years after the trauma wears of you will change your mind. That is the point of an open forum. Yet YOU continually try to shut down dialogue. Just because someone wants to R doesn't mean it's the right decision. Just seeing all the people who end up back on these forums after wasting a year or two only to find their spouse did it again, or those who have they have lost all feelings for their WS years later. 

As far as repentant ws are concerned haven't we had this conversation before. I really don't the whether the WS is repented or not should be a basis for R. A part of it yes. Doesn't mean I think ws who are truly repentant shouldn't be able to live happy lives.

Why is it mostly my posts you respond to? Your not going to show up at my house one day are you?


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> LOL. The only time a cheater looks in the mirror is to make sure their hair and/or makeup (if applicable) looks ok before they run off to meet their affair partner. :rofl:
> 
> Speaking of Waywards, did you see the ruckus one of them caused recently when they DARED to be honest in the Reconciliation forum? A BS was wondering if she could believe the bull**** her WS had fed her about the sex with his NUMEROUS OWs as not being very good and it was boring, etc. LOL. Yeah, _sure_ it was. That's one of the biggest lies cheaters tell their BS's. Gimme a break.
> 
> ...



You can call me delusional or whatever you want. I'm really not hung up on this issue at all but merely trying to help out any newly betrayed spouses that might stumble upon this entire thread and take in this barrage of nonsense. 

To repent means to "change your mind". Repentance is a gift from God and it physically and mentally changes your mind about the repented for sin.

I can look back at the extra-marital sex I had prior to meeting my wife and, since repentance, be disgusted by myself and the behavior and find it distasteful despite the belief, at the time, that I was enjoying myself or that it was good or decent sex. I actually didn't know what good sex was until after my wife and I reconciled and God was present in our marriage and angels in our bedroom. Our marriage lacked a lot of intimacy prior to her affair. 

I actually think the affair partners are the ones delusional that the sex was all that great or even good to begin with. They may or may not do nasty stuff or try to dress it up to make it more exciting but it's never going to be anything more than filthy adulterous self-destructive sex. The illusion of the THRILL is in the secrecy, not the mechanics. The affair partners are often strangers to one other ~ pretending and continuing to hide themselves behind a pile of lies, deceit and usually some prescription pills, a joint or a bottle of alcohol. There's very little real intimacy. 

So betrayed spouses shouldn't worry or care about what their wayward spouse says or thinks about the sex because it was uhholy and unGodly and nasty and when their wayward spouse repents, such will be revealed to them too. 

Taking it out of the religious realm, applying your logic to another similar situation like child sexual abuse situations reveals its inherent logical error. Children often enjoy sexual abuse while it's happening. Much of the damage to such children as they recover is a result of feeling shame and guilt over having enjoyed something so disgusting and revolting. They very often blame themselves for being submissive, for not telling someone, for actually "enticing" the abuser with their behavior or dress but the biggest shame inducer is guilt over feeling physical pleasure. So, even though their fundamental physical experience was pleasurable on some level at that time, I think we can all concur that it was simultaneously revolting on EVERY other level and, as an adult years later they, too, can look back at such experience with disgust.

My wife enjoyed the sex she had with OM, just as I, likewise, enjoyed the disgusting premarital fornication I had with other woman before I met my wife and, likewise, some sexually abused children did at the time they were abused. Doesn't make those feelings fact, nor does it make it less vulgar. I recall telling my wife that I'm sure if I went out and had sex with some random unknown attractive women that I could "perform" and "enjoy" it too. So what? We're human and designed to function that way Maybe I'm odd but I'm pretty self-confident and sex was never our problem. We were good in bed and then we got even better. I don't really care, but I do believe God provided me with this ability to overcome and not get bothered by this issue and I would encourage any betrayed spouse reading along and suffering to pray and seek similar understanding themselves about this and worry less about such disgusting matters as adulterous sex.

Finally, I'd like to try to put this overwhelming notion that the wayward spouses are getting away with something to bed once and for all. If being wayward and getting all that supposed great sex was worth it why don't you guys all do it? You've certainly observed that most marriages stay together after infidelity as long as you give up your affair partner so why don't you go get yourself some? I think it's because no matter how much fun or worthwhile you think adultery is or was to my wife and every repentant wayward you speak about so unkindly, there's NO WAY you, I or anyone would trade spots with them. I'd much rather be the BH eating my supposed "crap sandwich" than be the wayward spouse living with that memory, guilt, and shame over what I did to my family. Not that it's an either|or supposition but they way you guys try to pound home how awesome and worthwhile they are just makes it all sound so appealing. I can also say we probably wouldn't have recovered our marriage had I been the wayward one because I didn't possess half the character or ability to repent that my wife had. I'd have probably been one of the REALLY stupid waywards that went off and married their affair partner and posted on loveshack pretending to be happy. I was GOOD at rationalizing and justifying myself. We were actually fortunate because I ended up initially leading my wife to repentance and "true remorse" and then by her example, she lead me to my "repentance" and "true remorse" and TOGETHER it's made all the difference in the world and neither of us "got away" with anything ~~ consequences of sin are unavoidable, but we've been very lucky and blessed so far.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> No one is saying you can't post and advocate for R. You seem to be saying people like me should not post saying the BS may be making a mistake. This is pretty hypocritical. I do agree that most people come on here with their mind already made up. But then what is the harm if I or others say to them, think about what you are resigning yourself to, who it really is you are going to be spending the rest of your life with, and that there is a possibility that in a few years after the trauma wears of you will change your mind. That is the point of an open forum. Yet YOU continually try to shut down dialogue. Just because someone wants to R doesn't mean it's the right decision. Just seeing all the people who end up back on these forums after wasting a year or two only to find their spouse did it again, or those who have they have lost all feelings for their WS years later.
> 
> As far as repentant ws are concerned haven't we had this conversation before. I really don't the whether the WS is repented or not should be a basis for R. A part of it yes. Doesn't mean I think ws who are truly repentant shouldn't be able to live happy lives.
> 
> Why is it mostly my posts you respond to? Your not going to show up at my house one day are you?


I have no idea what you think I posted that was hypocritical. But acting like I'm complaining or trying to stop you from simply posting telling BS's they may be making a mistake is a bit of an overstatement. You regularly bully and berate newbie betrayed spouses in this forum. For example, within 24 minutes of GloomySunday starting his thread and sharing his distress over his wife's affair {which she reveallled} and clearly saying:"There is no doubt that we still love each other and want to make this work, but I don't know what lies ahead. Any advice would be appreciated" you came back with:



sokillme said:


> She is not your soulmate. She probably has done a lot more from the sound of her boundaries. Where was the male friend of hers, covering for her? Does his wife know? You should tell her because they probably cover for each other. I would bet good money this is not your wife's first rodeo, this was not drunk, horny and stupid because she had to be premeditated to be around this guy where there was opportunity. New job is a must.
> 
> **** test her and tell her you want a polygraph. I bet you find out a lot more. Honestly the truth is you are never going to have the same relationship with her that you once did. You probably are coming to terms with that, but you need to. No amount of hard work is going to make it go back to the way it was. You have a new relationship with a different person. I know that is hard but it's the truth. You would do better to accept that then trying to get the old one back will only prolong your pain and drive you crazy.
> 
> She is not your soulmate. Just another common cheater.


And it's not entirely the content above that's the problem, it's the time and delivery within 24 minutes of this guy spilling his guts out on the forum and seeking some solace and understanding. It just completely lacks empathy and understanding ~~ as though you hurriedly put it up just in case someone nicer stopped by to maybe offer him some hope. 


That said, we are engaged in dialogue ~ you posted your thoughts, I'm posting mine. I can't "shut you down" or even try to "shut down" dialogue whatsoever and simply stating the forum rules and pointing out this really isn't an "open forum" free for all sub-forum is in no way similar to enforcing those rules. I'm not a moderator shutting down anything. 

Why I tend to respond to you and truthseeker is because most of the persons that have actually experienced this trauma in their lives, no matter what the outcome, have a much better understanding of the emotions and circumstantial predicament than either of you. They may even agree with you but at least they are posting from an experienced and empathetic perspective and aren't running around posting the same repeated 6 or 7 thoughts and arguments 4500 times in one year as if relationships were like a computer program where certain inputs result in the same output every time. 

I grew up with an ASD cousin so the disconnect is familiar to me and, though you don't recognize it, your posts are largely unproductive, unhelpful and actually hurtful to many newly betrayed spouses who don't understand your limited perspective, marital {really relationally} history and mental condition.

But it's a free forum ~ I'm powerless to stop you. Bully away.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> I have no idea what you think I posted that was hypocritical. But acting like I'm complaining or trying to stop you from simply posting telling BS's they may be making a mistake is a bit of an overstatement. You regularly bully and berate newbie betrayed spouses in this forum. For example, within 24 minutes of GloomySunday starting his thread and sharing his distress over his wife's affair {which she reveallled} and clearly saying:"There is no doubt that we still love each other and want to make this work, but I don't know what lies ahead. Any advice would be appreciated" you came back with:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is this a joke right. You are the one who goes and researches other peoples posts on other boards no less and regularly post lies about people. Hell you have attacked my relationship with my wife, my father, call other people here cheaters with the most flimsy of evidence, attacked posters for being other posters. Now I have Autism is it? You calling me a bully that's rich, and right after you diagnose me on the spectrum. haha. If there was ever a bully here it's you. 

It's not bullying to say "be aware the marriage you used to have is over. Or remember who you are dealing with, do you want to be with someone who could do that to you, they may not be safe. Recognize you are under trauma and not thinking clearly right now, don't make a huge decision until you detach. What your spouse did to you is monstrous and that means there is probably something very wrong with them that will take a lot of work and desire to fix" 

I stand by everything I posted in the thread you quoted, though I will give you that it comes across as blunt, point taken. Here is the thing it's not your place here to police when is the right time to post about stuff. People come here to here opinions even if they are harsh, there situation is HARSH! Sometimes they need to see it. More often then not the poster will thank us for saying it. They are posting on an OPEN FORUM, they are not in the counseling room at your place, wherever you and your wife do your work. When they are doing that you get your say. Here attacking people because they don't do it the way you would is just bush. 

This is not the only thing on here I post about by the way but whatever you only seem to respond to me here anymore. Please don't do a statistical study! 

I think you call me a bully because you just don't like my arguments. 

The difference between you and me is you WOULD shut me down if you could. I don't really care if you post here or not. 

Pot meet kettle. 

Now I will await for you to use obscure reddit post from 4 years ago, my grandma or maybe my newfound ASD diagnosis as evidence that I am wrong, as is your goto. :grin2:


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Is this a joke right. You are the one who goes and researches other peoples posts on other boards no less and regularly post lies about people. Hell you have attacked my relationship with my wife, my father, call other people here cheaters with the most flimsy of evidence, attacked posters for being other posters. Now I have Autism is it? You calling me a bully that's rich, and right after you diagnose me on the spectrum. haha. If there was ever a bully here it's you.


Who have a posted lies about? I didn't attack your relationship with your wife and father, I merely inquired about your relationship with them and wondering whether, in the case of your wife, if she knew you were posting here and on reddit nearly 16,000 posts pretty much lamenting your ex-girlfriend that got away and wondering why you weren't seeking help here on TAM for the marital issues you discussed previously on Reddit and alluded to here on TAM without actually expressing and, in the case of your father, how it seems hypocritical that it's so abundantly obvious to you that every betrayed spouse that shows up here would be healthier by divorcing and ghosting their wayward spouse yet you get to keep your wayward father in your life and he's your best friend now. If, when you say I call people "cheaters" on flimsy evidence, you are referring to Chumplady ~ you just need to read her own incriminating adulterous comments yourself. You certainly have read enough wayward stories to recognize the foggy rationalization that goes something like "I'm not a cheater because I told my husband the marriage was over before I ever slept with my "friend" who has been supporting me throughout our abusive marriage". Attacked posters for being other posters ~ maxo
arnold|bigliam|etc|etc has been banned here a dozen times and brags about it on chumpcheater all the time ~ it's not bullying to point out an uninvited unwelcome guest. I'm sure he's still here trying to be careful and slipping in his crap {but I happen to have more respect for his opinions because, at least, he's been through the sawmill of infidelity TWICE versus 0 times for you}.



sokillme said:


> It's not bullying to say "be aware the marriage you used to have is over. Or remember who you are dealing with, do you want to be with someone who could do that to you, they may not be safe. Recognize you are under trauma and not thinking clearly right now, don't make a huge decision until you detach. What your spouse did to you is monstrous and that means there is probably something very wrong with them that will take a lot of work and desire to fix"


No ~ now THAT's not bullying; wish you posted that instead of the much more bullying, mean and presupposing post that you did make.

And I make presuppositions too - and sometimes I miss on them - but I'm much more often right than I'm not because I've experienced this crap and you haven't. Am I not just saying that because I don't like your viewpoint, GusPolinski is much more often right than he's not too. You just can't really learn this stuff by reading reddit and SI for a couple years. There's no replacing experiencing it and|or sitting with many other couples face to face dealing with these emotions. 





sokillme said:


> I stand by everything I posted in the thread you quoted, though I will give you that it comes across as blunt, point taken. Here is the thing it's not your place here to police when is the right time to post about stuff. People come here to here opinions even if they are harsh, there situation is HARSH! Sometimes they need to see it. More often then not the poster will thank us for saying it. They are posting on an OPEN FORUM, they are not in the counseling room at your place, wherever you and your wife do your work. When they are doing that you get your say. Here attacking people because they don't do it the way you would is just bush.


Yes, you tend to be a fairly blunt bully. You seem to lack a general nuance, compassion, understanding, and empathy. This is not my forum and I am not the forum police so whatever but people like Gloomy come here for opinions and I believe they fully understand their situations are harsh and that it sucks ~ they don't need you to help them "see it" any more than they NEED to see these incessant sideline gratuitous wayward bashing threads continually being bumped to the top so people can get their chump referral clicks. 

There is also a difference between giving balanced reasons logical advice that reconciliation is hard and divorce might even be the best option or necessary to prepare for giving certain facts versus LYING to newbies by telling them that recovery is impossible {or massively unlikely}, the marriage will never be the same, let alone better like mine and so many others and that all waywards will never change. 




sokillme said:


> This is not the only thing on here I post about by the way but whatever you only seem to respond to me here anymore. Please don't do a statistical study!
> 
> I think you call me a bully because you just don't like my arguments.


I often won't post contradicting or trying to correct you on a thread because I don't want to give you more reason to come back with another post defending you illogical arguments and doubling down on the lies and hope killing.

I call you a bully because you bully newbies and attack|denigrate any poster that tends towards and|or ultimately reconciles with their wayward spouse.




sokillme said:


> The difference between you and me is you WOULD shut me down if you could. I don't really care if you post here or not.


Well, duh! I've been pretty consistent saying that I FEEL your posts violate the forum guidelines as published by Chris and pinned to the top of this sub-forum for a long time. Doesn't mean I'm right and clearly I'm NOT a moderator so this part of the conversation is pointless {and hopefully doesn't get me in trouble}. Post whatever you want and so will I until told otherwise.

Of course, you don't care about my posts here. When directed at newly betrayed spouses, they're nothing but helpful and I believe they're well within the sub-forum guidelines as I understand them. 



> Pot meet kettle.


 So we're BOTH bullies? Huh?



sokillme said:


> Now I will await for you to use obscure reddit post from 4 years ago, my grandma or maybe my newfound ASD diagnosis as evidence that I am wrong, as is your goto. :grin2:


Come on. You know I can't do that because you deleted your 1 year old 12,000 post count user name, sokillme. 

Are you denying you're ASD? It's the only thing that makes sense to me. You just posted the other day on the historical honesty thread that if your wife lied to you, that you'd just simply divorce her with hardly a look back and that you're never going to open yourself to anyone emotionally again forever because that was the main lesson you took from your 20 something girlfriend cheating on you years ago. Life gets hard and sticky sometimes. Our marital vows include the caveat "in good times and bad" and your spouse is your family and it's just not normal to be so cavalier about divorce and discarding loved ones. Now you don't seem to have children so there's not that extra baggage or deterent to splitting up yet but I'm concerned for you over the day you do have kids and those children disappoint you or otherwise behave like humans {especially the teenage variety}. Will you open up to them? Will you discard them? But other than that, there is nothing inherently wrong with being ASD. But if you are handing out advice, it might be a good idea for people to know that instead of thinking you are this uncaring unempathetic robotic posting bully.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> Who have a posted lies about? I didn't attack your relationship with your wife and father, I merely inquired about your relationship with them and wondering whether, in the case of your wife, if she knew you were posting here and on reddit nearly 16,000 posts pretty much lamenting your ex-girlfriend that got away and wondering why you weren't seeking help here on TAM for the marital issues you discussed previously on Reddit and alluded to here on TAM without actually expressing and, in the case of your father, how it seems hypocritical that it's so abundantly obvious to you that every betrayed spouse that shows up here would be healthier by divorcing and ghosting their wayward spouse yet you get to keep your wayward father in your life and he's your best friend now. If, when you say I call people "cheaters" on flimsy evidence, you are referring to Chumplady ~ you just need to read her own incriminating adulterous comments yourself. You certainly have read enough wayward stories to recognize the foggy rationalization that goes something like "I'm not a cheater because I told my husband the marriage was over before I ever slept with my "friend" who has been supporting me throughout our abusive marriage". Attacked posters for being other posters ~ maxo
> arnold|bigliam|etc|etc has been banned here a dozen times and brags about it on chumpcheater all the time ~ it's not bullying to point out an uninvited unwelcome guest. I'm sure he's still here trying to be careful and slipping in his crap {but I happen to have more respect for his opinions because, at least, he's been through the sawmill of infidelity TWICE versus 0 times for you}.
> 
> 
> ...


There you go again with your psychoanalyzing, somehow I always end up just short of a serial killer when you analyze me. Ha ha. Whatever man. 

Why do you even read my posts they seem to trigger you. Sounds like you read every one and study them. Like you did with my reddit account. Again it's weird and kinda creepy. 

So sure I deleted my Reddit account. Someone was stalking me. I told them as much. I will just make another one, I am sure that will drive you crazy and you will accuse some poor sap of being me because he will post something you don't like.

I didn't say I would leave my wife if she lied to me it was in the context that she lied about her sexual history. Since that was a pretty big deal to both of us and was often discussed before we got married, at least our feelings about sex being reserved for someone special this would be a pretty big breach. I am not worried about it though because she didn't lie. But you leave that out because you want to be able to tell me I am heartless or whatever. 

I am glad you have diagnosed me, where would I be without you? Actually I know someone who works closely with kids who have ASD, sorry to disappointed you it's not me. I may be self righteous and hate cheating, I am also opinionated, but I am not on the spectrum. Harsh at times yes, maybe even too harsh, I admit it, but it is never done out of malice, it's because I see the BS blindly hurting themselves. But you're right I should work on that. You should try to get back on SI it's seems much more your speed. They like to police harshness too.

You are a somewhat emotionally intelligent man, you know exactly what you are doing posting stuff like, does you wife know you post here? Yes. Making it seem like I have ever posted anything at all about my ex except how horrendous the aftermath of those few year were after she cheated years ago. You dismiss this though when it's convenient, but now it's a big deal again. This is what you do, you take stuff that people say and quote it here out of context to make it seem nefarious. You want to discredit them, it's a form of lying. 

Your original comment about me and my wife I believe had to do with me I wanted her to cheat on me as an out. Not very nice. You do that to, such as now I have ASD "but that is not a big deal" or I am posting because of my relationship with my Dad or whatever. Next week it will be hooping cough. You know exactly what your doing, it's all backhand insults and textbook bullying. 

Let's drop it were thread jacking again. I get it you don't like my posts. 

Have a good night.


----------



## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Sokillme : Quality has some good points... things I thought about saying as well. By all means, I think you have been helpful to many people. But yeah, I feel there are unresolved issues with your EX-GF for what... 10+ years (I don't remember, sorry). It's not healthy. I'm here because I am still going through the motions and also paying it forward with others here and there. I find it helpful to be here.

But I don't want to be here 5 years from now. Other than updates or checking in here and there... I know it would be unhealthy to me and my relationship with my wife or a future person if I lived on this forum (or any other cheater forum). The likelihood of cheating is very high - the amount that is going on, there is no way to escape it. Either you are involved or know someone who is. I never knew how bad the number of people really was or how bad it would hurt.

This placed has saved my sanity but also has rescued the relationship with my wife, or at least giving it a chance in the right direction. I'd be a liar if I said "we are saved" - we can likely get there. We both want to and I know I have options.

But I do long for the day that I am not here every few days. It comes and goes. Situation caused me to be more active... once its over, I hope to check in here every few months.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TaDor said:


> But I do long for the day that I am not here every few days. It comes and goes. Situation caused me to be more active... once its over, I hope to check in here every few months.


I do wonder about BSs who claim to be healed and are "reconciled" who haunt infidelity forums 10,20+ years after the actual infidelity occurred. Are they healed? I have my doubts.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TaDor said:


> Sokillme : Quality has some good points... things I thought about saying as well. By all means, I think you have been helpful to many people. But yeah, I feel there are unresolved issues with your EX-GF for what... 10+ years (I don't remember, sorry). It's not healthy. I'm here because I am still going through the motions and also paying it forward with others here and there. I find it helpful to be here.
> 
> But I don't want to be here 5 years from now. Other than updates or checking in here and there... I know it would be unhealthy to me and my relationship with my wife or a future person if I lived on this forum (or any other cheater forum). The likelihood of cheating is very high - the amount that is going on, there is no way to escape it. Either you are involved or know someone who is. I never knew how bad the number of people really was or how bad it would hurt.
> 
> ...


Posting on here has really done more to qualify some stuff about myself as it has to do with my childhood. In that sense it's been good for me. The ex thing really wasn't a though until I started posting on here and read all these horrific stories and started to remember. I have no pain from that at all. I do sympathize very deeply maybe too much so with the people who are going through it. Especially the men. I remember how I didn't feel like I wouldn't find better. But I know now I was so wrong. I am glad that that fear didn't keep my holding on. 

If you are going to post on aftermath threads you are going to post your experience. It doesn't mean you are still suffering. I have gotten into my reasons for not really believing in R for most situations on here at infinitum and don't want to rehash it again. Suffice to say there is not issue I need to work through at least on that front. Do I have issues, sure doesn't everyone. Infidelity isn't one of them.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I do sympathize very deeply maybe too much so with the people who are going through it. Especially the men. I remember how I didn't feel like I wouldn't find better. But I know now I was so wrong. I am glad that that fear didn't keep my holding on.


That right there is key. Do many BSs who reconcile feel like they can not find better? Do they believe themselves? I understand R in some circumstances but other you have to wonder. If your spouse had multiple APS or was cheating on you for years - what is left to save? And even if you do R what did you gain exactly? Many stay out of fear and lack of belief in themselves. I also suspect that many cheaters suspect their BS won't leave if they do get caught. I'm not sure. However if a BS does reconcile it must be done from strength and not fear. 

Because if you have a spouse who had multiple APs or a LTA they are not a prize to be won back - but a very damaged person who you are planning a future with.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I'm not sure.


:BoomSmilie_anim: ~~~~ Understatement of the century. 

:iagree::moon:

.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I think it would depend on the type of personality you're dealing with - someone who has borderline disorders, or narcissistic personality disorder would never feel remorse. Those types lack empathy. But, the common everyday person who sometimes behaves atrociously or selfishly, could definitely after things settle down...feel deep regret and guilt (which is basically what remorse is) Remorse doesn't mean that someone can change, though - it just means at least you're dealing with someone who has a conscience.

So with all that said, I'd say that yes, many people could feel true remorse. Cheating is a deal breaker for me, and for my husband. Not because we don't believe people can't be remorseful, but because we both feel it would take a miracle for us to trust each other again. I wouldn't want to live like that...monitoring him, and second guessing everything he does. He feels the same. 

So, to me, it's not about not believing that someone could be remorseful, but it's more about the fact that the core trust would be shattered forever. I do have the utmost respect for people who reconcile, it has to take a lot of patience and trust to build a new relationship after infidelity.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@*Deidre* Its about more than just shattered trust - the cheater in a LTA or a serial cheater shows a depraved indifference to not only their Bs but their entire family including their kids. They repeatedly put themselves first at the expense of the good of their spouse and children. That kind of irresponsibility should give one serious pause about building a new relationship on tha tkind of brokenness.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> @*Deidre* Its about more than just shattered trust - the cheater in a LTA or a serial cheater shows a depraved indifference to not only their Bs but their entire family including their kids. They repeatedly put themselves first at the expense of the good of their spouse and children. That kind of irresponsibility should give one serious pause about building a new relationship on tha tkind of brokenness.


I completely agree, which is why cheating is a deal breaker for me. But, I can only speak for me, if others feel like they want to give someone a second chance, it is his/her life to do as they wish. What are your thoughts on reconciliation when serial cheating is involved? There are some stories on here where the BS stays in the marriage, what do you think about that?


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> I completely agree, which is why cheating is a deal breaker for me. But, I can only speak for me, if others feel like they want to give someone a second chance, it is his/her life to do as they wish. What are your thoughts on reconciliation when serial cheating is involved? There are some stories on here where the BS stays in the marriage, what do you think about that?


I understand how R is possible with certain types of affairs like an EA, a ONS and even a brief A but a LTA or a serial cheater I am skeptical it can ever be put back together again where the BS is happy. To me not every affair is equal (my opinion) *Online EA<EA<ONS<Brief PA<LTA or Serial Cheating* - now people can and do divorce for any one of these but I think the level of depravity gets worse as you move along that list. 

I read of a case on another forum where the WW had an A for a few years and had sex with her AP everyday even bringing home an STD and giving it to her BH. The couple did R but I'm skeptical about what that R looks like in real life. Can it happen? Sure there are exceptions to every rule. But what do you truly have with a spouse who can lie and deceive you for YEARS and YEARS? What did you "win" back exactly?

I agree with you every person can do what they wish which is why I would never attack a BS for reconciling - it is none of my business and up to them. But I am concerned about their self-esteem and belief in themselves if they take back a cheater who stepped out with multiple people or for years and years. When is enough enough? That is just my opinion.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I understand how R is possible with certain types of affairs like an EA, a ONS and even a brief A but a LTA or a serial cheater I am skeptical it can ever be put back together again where the BS is happy. To me not every affair is equal (my opinion) *Online EA<EA<ONS<Brief PA<LTA or Serial Cheating* - now people can and do divorce for any one of these but I think the level of depravity gets worse as you move along that list.
> 
> I read of a case on another forum where the WW had an A for a few years and had sex with her AP everyday even bringing home an STD and giving it to her BH. The couple did R but I'm skeptical about what that R looks like in real life. Can it happen? Sure there are exceptions to every rule. But what do you truly have with a spouse who can lie and deceive you for YEARS and YEARS? What did you "win" back exactly?
> 
> I agree with you every person can do what they wish which is why I would never attack a BS for reconciling - it is none of my business and up to them. But I am concerned about their self-esteem and belief in themselves if they take back a cheater who stepped out with multiple people or for years and years. When is enough enough? That is just my opinion.


Agree with you, here. I have a close friend who just found out her husband has been cheating on her for the past 6 months. They have only been married for two years. She is staying, and the thing is, this isn't the only area that he's fallen down as a husband. He also does drugs, and is very selfish. I told her my opinion, but at this point if she's staying, without even a trial separation or anything, just staying and rug sweeping, what is she gaining? I can't help but think she is more afraid of being alone, than being with a jerk. And the sad thing is, you know when you get this feeling that someone will do that again? I get that feeling with him, especially if she easily forgave. She cries about it a lot, and it's hard on her, but I told her that no one would fault her for ending the marriage. I think some people feel that divorce, even if they did nothing wrong, somehow makes them look like a failure.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> Agree with you, here. I have a close friend who just found out her husband has been cheating on her for the past 6 months. They have only been married for two years. She is staying, and the thing is, this isn't the only area that he's fallen down as a husband. He also does drugs, and is very selfish. I told her my opinion, but at this point if she's staying, without even a trial separation or anything, just staying and rug sweeping, what is she gaining? I can't help but think she is more afraid of being alone, than being with a jerk. And the sad thing is, you know when you get this feeling that someone will do that again? I get that feeling with him, especially if she easily forgave. She cries about it a lot, and it's hard on her, but I told her that no one would fault her for ending the marriage. I think some people feel that divorce, even if they did nothing wrong, somehow makes them look like a failure.


Cheated for 6 months of a 2 year marriage? Does drugs? Selfish? It would not be hard for her to trade up. Does she have low self-esteem? If he off drugs?

Divorcing a cheater, drug user,etc does not make you a failure - they are the ones who have failed.

I read 2 other cases one in which the WW's affair lasted 15 years and another for 25 years! Both are in R and I'm thinking WTF? Your wifes affair lasted long enough to reach the silver anniversary with her AP and this is the woman you want to spend your final years with? You do wonder aobut the BHs self-esteem in these cases dont you?


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Cheated for 6 months of a 2 year marriage? Does drugs? Selfish? It would not be hard for her to trade up. Does she have low self-esteem? If he off drugs?
> 
> Divorcing a cheater, drug user,etc does not make you a failure - they are the ones who have failed.
> 
> I read 2 other cases one in which the WW's affair lasted 15 years and another for 25 years! Both are in R and I'm thinking WTF? Your wifes affair lasted long enough to reach the silver anniversary with her AP and this is the woman you want to spend your final years with? You do wonder aobut the BHs self-esteem in these cases dont you?


Yea, I do wonder, sometimes. I've dated in the past, men who mistreated me, and I stayed in some toxic relationships and what I realized was that I was attracting people like that because I didn't have enough self respect. Not saying that is the case with all betrayed spouses who reconcile, but if the reconciliation happens too quick, like in my friend's case...then, I do think it's just a matter of the BS not wanting to lose the fantasy life that she/he thinks they have with their partner. It's not a long enough time in her case, to see if he really is truly remorseful or just is jumping through hoops so she doesn't divorce him.


----------



## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

@*Deidre* : 6 months after 18 months of marriage? She is wasting her time. It sucks. Don't get pregnant by him.

I agree withTruthseeker1: LTR and serial cheating = no empathy. Wasted tears.


----------



## Hexagon (Jun 20, 2017)

I'm not entirely sure if my STBX regrets anything regarding her affairs. In our previous discussions (we haven't even attempted to discuss it in a while) she has blamed me. I'm also unsure if she actually believes that her affairs are my fault or if shes trying to convince herself of this bull****. 
If she feels any regret or remorse, its because of what she has done to her daughter. 
The constant lies, even after she left, the smear campaign, all of it. It makes me fantasize about grabbing her and shaking her and yelling, "how can you not see what you've done to our child?"

When I stop to give the subject thought, I am amazed that someone with children attempt to justify this for any reason whatsoever. Its breathtaking how someone engages in something so destructive. 
Its been said that part of why I'm going through this is due to her being so childish/immature/etc but as far as I can tell, this behavior knows no age. 

Remorse? Maybe they suffer silently. I hope so. 
I don't believe in a god. I don't believe in karma. I do however believe in justice and as socially acceptable as this behavior is, even though it destroys lives, justice may never come and if it does, it will come in the form of "time".
Once time catches them and they are alone later, perhaps when they feel remorse.


----------



## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Those who "fall in love" with a co-worker, typically women - are usually GUILTY the first time they do it. But they got away with it... and it is naughty - so do it again. Like anal-sex, heheh.

Because of the thought process required to continue to cheat and lie to your SO, it changes how that person thinks of themselves and the person they married.
"I should get sex on the side. He insulted my new pair of pants" of whatever comes to mind in order to blame someone else for their sexual adventures. When you are single and having sex with someone else -you don't have to lie and cheat, to people. So what goes on in the head is not the same.

Many do not ever get to remorse. When they do, its usually too-late. Or their pride gets in the way of hitting the mark. So let's say they are 99% remorse, but can't admit their messed up bad. So to me, they haven't quite gotten there yet. So some of them go down hill... they lost everything for a piece of ass.

Admitting to have made bad choices is a hard thing for many people. THey would rather hang on to that mistake... which of course doesn't help them.


----------



## Hexagon (Jun 20, 2017)

TaDor said:


> Those who "fall in love" with a co-worker, typically women - are usually GUILTY the first time they do it. But they got away with it... and it is naughty - so do it again. Like anal-sex, heheh.
> 
> Because of the thought process required to continue to cheat and lie to your SO, it changes how that person thinks of themselves and the person they married.
> "I should get sex on the side. He insulted my new pair of pants" of whatever comes to mind in order to blame someone else for their sexual adventures. When you are single and having sex with someone else -you don't have to lie and cheat, to people. So what goes on in the head is not the same.
> ...


The pair of pants thing, however goofy that sounds, is pretty accurate. 
I was blamed too. She wouldn't have done it had I not........

Also, I keep seeing the term "mad hatter". Whats this mean?


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> Yea, I do wonder, sometimes. I've dated in the past, men who mistreated me, and I stayed in some toxic relationships and what I realized was that I was attracting people like that because I didn't have enough self respect. Not saying that is the case with all betrayed spouses who reconcile, but if the reconciliation happens too quick, like in my friend's case...then, I do think it's just a matter of the BS not wanting to lose the fantasy life that she/he thinks they have with their partner. It's not a long enough time in her case, to see if he really is truly remorseful or just is jumping through hoops so she doesn't divorce him.


He is a cheater and a drug user - he is a bad bet for future happiness. She needs to realize she is worth more than that. I do think that many BSs who stay with such spouses do have self-esttem issues and lack belief in their ability to make a better life for themselves.



TaDor said:


> [MENTION=231978]
> 
> I agree withTruthseeker1: LTR and serial cheating = no empathy. Wasted tears.


It takes a high level of immorality and a lack of a real conscience to engage in either of those things. Imagine coming home to a spouse and lying to them for YEARS about where you were, who you were with and what you were doing. That person is a special kind of broken IMO.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TaDor said:


> Because of the thought process required to continue to cheat and lie to your SO, it changes how that person thinks of themselves and the person they married.
> "I should get sex on the side. He insulted my new pair of pants" of whatever comes to mind in order to blame someone else for their sexual adventures. When you are single and having sex with someone else -you don't have to lie and cheat, to people. So what goes on in the head is not the same.
> .


Great observation. I do wonder how many people cheat first and come up with the reasons later.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Hexagon said:


> The pair of pants thing, however goofy that sounds, is pretty accurate.
> I was blamed too. She wouldn't have done it had I not........
> 
> Also, I keep seeing the term "mad hatter". Whats this mean?


Madhatter is when both the H and W cheat - then they wear both hats of betrayed and wayward. I like to think of it as the WS finally getting a taste of their own medicine. >

i'm sure your Xw will find lots of ways to rewrite history to convince herself and everyone else what a great person she is. That is cheater 101. SMH.


----------



## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

I thought the MadHatter is mostly when the BS does major revenge sex on the wayward. Like, several partners, etc.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TaDor said:


> I thought the MadHatter is mostly when the BS does major revenge sex on the wayward. Like, several partners, etc.


no its simply when the BS engages in some sort of RA - I've seen cheaters elsewhere claim MH status when their BS has a perceived EA - uh huh yeah that makes it even SMH


----------



## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Breaking trust... its hard to make that even. Even if its a revenge thing. There shouldn't even need to be a Revenge Affair if there wasn't cheating to begin with.

Consequences for your actions.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TaDor said:


> Breaking trust... its hard to make that even. Even if its a revenge thing. There shouldn't even need to be a Revenge Affair if there wasn't cheating to begin with.
> 
> Consequences for your actions.


WSs like to avoid those consequences. I do love it when a Ws wants to tell the Bs how they need to behave after dday. it is amazing how they like boundaries after they get caught isnt it?


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Hexagon said:


> Remorse? Maybe they suffer silently. I hope so.
> I don't believe in a god. I don't believe in karma. I do however believe in justice and as socially acceptable as this behavior is, even though it destroys lives, justice may never come and if it does, it will come in the form of "time".
> Once time catches them and they are alone later, perhaps when they feel remorse.


I think poor character eventually catches up with people. They cross the wrong person or suffer unexpected consequences. Do they change? Some do and some dont. But poor character will eventually diminish a persons life in the long run.


----------



## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Hexagon said:


> I'm not entirely sure if my STBX regrets anything regarding her affairs. In our previous discussions (we haven't even attempted to discuss it in a while) she has blamed me. I'm also unsure if she actually believes that her affairs are my fault or if shes trying to convince herself of this bull****.
> If she feels any regret or remorse, its because of what she has done to her daughter.
> The constant lies, even after she left, the smear campaign, all of it. It makes me fantasize about grabbing her and shaking her and yelling, "how can you not see what you've done to our child?"
> 
> ...


As long as they feel some justification or that it's the other persons' fault remorse won't happen. They will convince themselves it's so to protect themselves from self loathing.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Malaise said:


> As long as they feel some justification or that it's the other persons' fault remorse won't happen. They will convince themselves it's so to protect themselves from self loathing.


Agree 100% - the WS pre and post dday is about saving the WS. They want to be both the perpetrator (_have their affair for ego kibbles_) and the victim (_oh poor me there are consequences_) at the same time. Real broken people.


----------



## growing_weary (Jul 23, 2017)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agree 100% - the WS pre and post dday is about saving the WS. They want to be both the perpetrator (_have their affair for ego kibbles_) and the victim (_oh poor me there are consequences_) at the same time. Real broken people.



It took me a while, it'll probably take me much longer to full get it, but I'm slowly starting to see this. It does help that when I try to blame myself my therapist gently, but sternly stops me and describes how he perceives things. 

My husband would literally do both in one crying fit. "You dont _____! Oh, I ruined everything." Cue waterworks, snot and loud sobbing.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

growing_weary said:


> It took me a while, it'll probably take me much longer to full get it, but I'm slowly starting to see this. It does help that when I try to blame myself my therapist gently, but sternly stops me and describes how he perceives things.
> 
> My husband would literally do both in one crying fit. "You dont _____! Oh, I ruined everything." Cue waterworks, snot and loud sobbing.


I've seen this personally in my own life. I had a relative who cheated on their spouse. i believe it was a serial type cheating situation. They kept the details murky but some filtered out. Anyway it went from embarrassment to blaming the Bs for what they did when it came to money, career, etc oh and it got better the BS was even accused of having a long time crush on an opposite sex friend. See how that worked? It went from being embarrassed at being caught cheating to being the victim. It was astonishing to watch the pace at which that happened. They ended up divorced since the BS could not take it any longer.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

growing_weary said:


> It took me a while, it'll probably take me much longer to full get it, but I'm slowly starting to see this. It does help that when I try to blame myself my therapist gently, but sternly stops me and describes how he perceives things.
> 
> My husband would literally do both in one crying fit. "You dont _____! Oh, I ruined everything." Cue waterworks, snot and loud sobbing.


One more thought - after dday the WS deserately looks for what I'll call "equivalency". IMO in order to minimize what they did they will say but you did this or you said that. I've seen WSs particularly WWs try to equate being called names after dday with their affair or being an "abused" spouse. I also dont trust a spouse who has a PA to tell us their spouse had a revenge EA..really that makes it even? And I do not trust them to judge if their spouse was having an EA or not. They are desperately looking to be equal in victim status with their BS.

If you read other forums with a specific protected section for cheaters this will all shine through. They either start threads to whine about how tough their life is or what good people they are becoming. Forgive me but I dont view getting up in the morning and not screwing your AP a particularly grand achievement. Perhaps I set my standards too high.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> The Unlikelihood of True Remorse
> 
> June 22, 2017 by @chumplady
> 
> ...


I did..I cheated one time...and confessed..and have never cheated again in the past 34 years. I became transparent...i made very strict boundaries...i dedicated my life to learning how to become remorseful and heal my spouse. You have indeed seen one...truthseeker...me

Negativity breeds negativity
one size does not fit all


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I did..I cheated one time...and confessed..and have never cheated again in the past 34 years. I became transparent...i made very strict boundaries...i dedicated my life to learning how to become remorseful and heal my spouse. You have indeed seen one...truthseeker...me
> 
> Negativity breeds negativity
> one size does not fit all


If you look at most of the discussion on this thread and my own words its folks in LTAs and serial cheaters I'm skeptical of.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

that is not what your original statement said...I wanted to assure you that there are indeed exceptions.

There is no one size fits all

Hope you are doing well....


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@Mrs. John Adams I'm doing fine thanks hope you and Mr. JA are doing fine as well.


----------



## rockon (May 18, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams?

Wow, what a blast from the past.


----------



## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

I may be confusing between posters, but didn't @Mrs. John Adams husband has an affair too ? (Again, apologize if i mentioned wrong poster)


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

yes he did

and yes i am a blast from the past

TS..I am very glad to hear it..we are doing very well thank you


----------



## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> yes he did
> 
> and yes i am a blast from the past
> 
> TS..I am very glad to hear it..we are doing very well thank you


MadHatter situation like mine then, who did it first ? was the later affair a RA ?


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

karr99 said:


> MadHatter situation like mine then, who did it first ? was the later affair a RA ?


I cheated first and he had an RA two years later. we have been in reconciliation 34 years...and we are doing great.


----------



## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I cheated first and he had an RA two years later. we have been in reconciliation 34 years...and we are doing great.


Glad to hear you're doing well. My xWH had EA, possible PA but he had deleted many of the texts. I tried R but he was actively half blameshifting to me, even our MC called him out when he blamed me. I had never felt so worthless. Then i met someone and had an affair, not RA but exit affair. Interestingly, after that he thought that my affair was 100% all on me but when it came to his affair, he said that i made the condition of our marriage to be fragile which was why he got "comforted" by someone else.

Those were great mistakes, having affair and wasting time R with someone who was to selfish


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

karr99 said:


> Glad to hear you're doing well. My xWH had EA, possible PA but he had deleted many of the texts. I tried R but he was actively half blameshifting to me, even our MC called him out when he blamed me. I had never felt so worthless. Then i met someone and had an affair, not RA but exit affair. Interestingly, after that he thought that my affair was 100% all on me but when it came to his affair, he said that i made the condition of our marriage to be fragile which was why he got "comforted" by someone else.
> 
> Those were great mistakes, having affair and wasting time R with someone who was to selfish


You never know until you try. You can say you gave it your best shot...
Reconciliation is not for everyone..but it was right for us.


----------



## rockon (May 18, 2016)

@Mrs. John Adams

As a loooong time lurker (now a member) it's good to see you posting again!

Any chance your husband might also return?


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

rockon said:


> @Mrs. John Adams
> 
> As a loooong time lurker (now a member) it's good to see you posting again!
> 
> Any chance your husband might also return?


I have always been a paid member and have visited TAM...but I chose not to post...and I dont really think I will ever be back like I once was...an occassional post maybe. John will not be back. 
TAM will always be a place that we feel helped us cross the last hurdle...and we will forever be grateful.


----------



## rockon (May 18, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I have always been a paid member and have visited TAM...but I chose not to post...and I dont really think I will ever be back like I once was...an occassional post maybe. John will not be back.
> TAM will always be a place that we feel helped us cross the last hurdle...and we will forever be grateful.



:frown2:


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

karr99 said:


> Glad to hear you're doing well. My xWH had EA, possible PA but he had deleted many of the texts. I tried R but he was actively half blameshifting to me, even our MC called him out when he blamed me. I had never felt so worthless. *Then i met someone and had an affair, not RA but exit affair. Interestingly, after that he thought that my affair was 100% all on me but when it came to his affair, he said that i made the condition of our marriage to be fragile which was why he got "comforted" by someone else.*
> 
> Those were great mistakes, having affair and wasting time R with someone who was to selfish


Isnt the hypocrisy of WS's just special? They destroy the marriage and cant figure out why someone would strike back. They really do expect to get away with it dont they?


----------



## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

I think I have that unicorn at home: I believe my husband is genuinely remorseful. Everything he says and does shows me that. He snapped out of the fog and turned a corner. Now he begs me to give our marriage a chance and is doing everything to fix things. I don't doubt his sincerity and feelings of disgust about what he did. I see genuine remorse.

But it is still not enough. I am heartbroken and can't imagine a happy future. I'm giving him a chance because we have young kids. I hope things will get better.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Aletta said:


> I think I have that unicorn at home: I believe my husband is genuinely remorseful. Everything he says and does shows me that. He snapped out of the fog and turned a corner. Now he begs me to give our marriage a chance and is doing everything to fix things. I don't doubt his sincerity and feelings of disgust about what he did. I see genuine remorse.
> 
> But it is still not enough. I am heartbroken and can't imagine a happy future. I'm giving him a chance because we have young kids. I hope things will get better.


It takes 2-5 years to recover - just work on your healing. He cant heal you - only you can do that. Read more chump lady - lots of good advice and wisdom on her site.


----------



## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

Truthseeker1 said:


> It takes 2-5 years to recover - just work on your healing. He cant heal you - only you can do that. Read more chump lady - lots of good advice and wisdom on her site.


I will, thanks.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Aletta said:


> I think I have that unicorn at home: I believe my husband is genuinely remorseful. Everything he says and does shows me that. He snapped out of the fog and turned a corner. Now he begs me to give our marriage a chance and is doing everything to fix things. I don't doubt his sincerity and feelings of disgust about what he did. I see genuine remorse.
> 
> But it is still not enough. I am heartbroken and can't imagine a happy future. I'm giving him a chance because we have young kids. I hope things will get better.




There is a thread here somewhere with the title being something like, is remorse enough, or something like that. This thread helped me in my journey, you can't just bank everything on remorse. There is so much more then just remorse, but genuine remorse will help the the person who cheated become a better person if they allow. If can bring about change in how they live, it can bring personal growth to becoming a healthier person overall. Just remember that you now know what your spouse is capable of, and that is something that is hard to accept. 

I will also tell you this, if you are attempting to reconcile, you need to be all in. No holding back, you discuss the difficult conversations with vulnerability and calm. I suggest that people should wait a minimum of six months from d-day to decide. Let the emotions, feelings, anger, shock, begin to dissipate before making this decision. In other words, your decision needs to come from a position of strength. I wish you the best of luck if you are indeed deciding to reconcile, but your above post I perceive as much indecision in your decision. Pm me if you would like if you feel I can assist you in any way. God bless.


----------



## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

drifting on said:


> ... but genuine remorse will help the the person who cheated become a better person if they allow. If can bring about change in how they live, it can bring personal growth to becoming a healthier person overall. Just remember that you now know what your spouse is capable of, and that is something that is hard to accept.
> 
> I will also tell you this, if you are attempting to reconcile, you need to be all in. No holding back, you discuss the difficult conversations with vulnerability and calm. I suggest that people should wait a minimum of six months from d-day to decide. Let the emotions, feelings, anger, shock, begin to dissipate before making this decision. In other words, your decision needs to come from a position of strength. I wish you the best of luck if you are indeed deciding to reconcile, but your above post I perceive as much indecision in your decision. Pm me if you would like if you feel I can assist you in any way. God bless.


Thank you.

I agree that remorse can change a person for the better. He has started therapy to deal with his issues and insecurities that led him to infidelity. What he has done was a huge wake up call and he sees his flaws and problems and wants to deal with them and grow. He understands what happened and why, and that is a very positive thing. 

Things are still very fresh and I'm not at the stage to be all in. I'm still in shock and the roller-coaster ride is pretty wild at the moment. But I do essentially want to fix our marriage. I hope I will be able to do my part without holding back, and do it soon. Your encouragement means a lot to me. God bless you too.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@Aletta - @drifting on has been through hell and has much wisdom to share.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> @Aletta - @drifting on has been through hell and has much wisdom to share.





Thank you for the kind words, but your wisdom has helped me tremendously. You have shown me what exactly was in front of me, your words of support have helped me to remain focused and calm. Thank you so very much.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Aletta said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I agree that remorse can change a person for the better. He has started therapy to deal with his issues and insecurities that led him to infidelity. What he has done was a huge wake up call and he sees his flaws and problems and wants to deal with them and grow. He understands what happened and why, and that is a very positive thing.
> 
> Things are still very fresh and I'm not at the stage to be all in. I'm still in shock and the roller-coaster ride is pretty wild at the moment. But I do essentially want to fix our marriage. I hope I will be able to do my part without holding back, and do it soon. Your encouragement means a lot to me. God bless you too.




I apologize to you, I don't know when your d-day was, but if it's less then six months ago I advise to wait before making a decision. During the six months you will sit next to your husband and want him there, a minute later you will wish to never see him again. What I'm saying is that your emotions are so very confused. Wait six months and watch the actions of your husband. Focus on yourself, your husband and marriage can wait, become a healthier you. Again, if you feel I can help, don't hesitate to call on me, I'll help in any way.


----------



## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

drifting on said:


> I apologize to you, I don't know when your d-day was, but if it's less then six months ago I advise to wait before making a decision. During the six months you will sit next to your husband and want him there, a minute later you will wish to never see him again. What I'm saying is that your emotions are so very confused. Wait six months and watch the actions of your husband. Focus on yourself, your husband and marriage can wait, become a healthier you. Again, if you feel I can help, don't hesitate to call on me, I'll help in any way.


D day was three months ago. The affair ended just over a month ago. I'm a mess and behave in exactly the same way you describe above. He is frustrated, doesn't understand why I can't decide what I want and then take steps towards it. I, of course, get angry because he caused my suffering. And so we go in circles.

We will be separated for about three weeks because I am visiting family for a holiday. 

Thank you for your offer. I need all the help I can get.


----------



## JayOwen (Oct 26, 2016)

@Aletta

as one betrayed spouse to another I can tell you that you're still right in the worst of it. If you truly think that he has put the affair behind him (and I must say, that's not a guarantee at this stage, the fact that it continued for two months afterwards is NOT a great sign) then maybe you can finally start the process of whatever it is that comes next (even if you remain undecided as to what that might be).

If it's any help I can tell you my own timeline thus far:

First month: intense pain, weight loss, inability to work. Getting out of the slump required dumping all alcohol, frequent counseling, asking for support from my closest friends and family, and beginning a concerted exercise regimen. Internet message boards, this one included, were both helpful and complicated -- take it all with a grain of salt.

At two months (but sounds like where you're at): you start to feel like you're getting your bearings. Episodes of extreme emotions will still ruin you for a day at a time, but I also started to have days where life seems almost normal (at least until you think about things again). It helped that my wife had committed herself (although for what I now consider the wrong reasons) to rebuilding our marriage. She wasn't perfect, but she was trying at least. I would hope your husband is doing the same.

For me, the three month mark was when I first started feeling numb. All overtures by my wife fell on deaf ears and deaf emotions. Making things worse was the fact that questions still lingered, truths about her feelings for me continued to emerge, and we had a counselor who seemed intent on "sharing the blame around" (who I've long since given the boot -- marriage counseling is not high on my list of things that help, but I could be biased).

By six months, the pain had receded considerably, but forgiveness remained a foreign-sounding word. It was around this time that I began to slowly stop monitoring her every move. The paranoia remained but was decreasing as well as exhausting to continue. In other words, I realized that my "surveillance" wouldn't change a thing in the end -- a difficult realization, but one you may need to embrace in order to not make yourself crazy. The emotional numbness had receded to be replaced by ambivalence. If three months marked the "plain of lethal flatness" then six months marked the emergence of an "emotional ceiling." I could feel good things for her, just not nearly what I once did. I also gave up on counseling for myself, again largely because I felt the counselor was ineffective and offering bad advice (in so many words advising that I should stop obsessing and try to view my wife like I once did i.e. act as if it never happened).

By nine months, after near constant reflection and unearthing of hidden skeletons in out of the way closets there is a clear understanding of what my wife was going through, and still struggles with. Which is not to say there is forgiveness. Quite the opposite, it's now at the point where I understand how far she falls short in the areas that were critical to me in a wife (i.e. had I know of them I would never have married her). What remains to be seen is whether she has the strength to "learn" how to be a good partner and if I have the ability to not let this eat at me forever (not clear). Or perhaps a better way to describe it is whether I'll have the strength to recommit to a marriage with a known abuser struggling with emotional issues. Realizing that's the ugly truth of my wife -- along with all the things that make her a wonderful person otherwise -- is a painful milestone. What I have yet to mention is all of this has been done, and is being done, with my three young children in mind. Parsing the effects on the children between an emotionally muted but (now) stable marriage and happier but divorced parents remains my biggest puzzle.

So that's a long way of saying that there's a winding, tangled road ahead of you. Rarely does "simple" advice really apply. It might work for a day, or a month, or even a divorce. But I've found that if you truly did love your spouse it's a long road that only time will truly sort out. The 180, no contact, Chump Lady, etc. They are all very useful, but none of them will likely be a magic bullet. The reality is that there is no magic bullet, just the progress you make for yourself. You get out of the process what you put into it.

I think a lot of people decide it's not worth staying and there's better paths to happiness out there and they divorce, and that's valid -- I'm jealous of those people to a degree. It's also okay to decide to stay, even if to figure out whether this is "new" person is real or another line of bull****. At least so you know you made the right decision in the long run, even if divorce is how things shake out. But in the meantime make sure you have both eyes open, and take the time you need to really work through it (counseling helps). But either way, sure as hell your "reformed cheater" of a husband shouldn't be tapping his watch and asking you whether you're over it yet.

Tell him to stuff it and get to work proving he's worth your time. If he can't handle that... then that's your answer.


----------



## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

Jay Owen,

thank you for sharing. It is good to know I am not alone in this and that what I'm going through is normal.

He will have to work hard to earn my trust and respect back, that's for sure. I am ready to walk away if he doesn't and he knows it. I guess time will tell.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Aletta said:


> D day was three months ago. The affair ended just over a month ago. I'm a mess and behave in exactly the same way you describe above. He is frustrated, doesn't understand why I can't decide what I want and then take steps towards it. I, of course, get angry because he caused my suffering. And so we go in circles.
> 
> We will be separated for about three weeks because I am visiting family for a holiday.
> 
> Thank you for your offer. I need all the help I can get.




Just wanted to let you know something that for obvious reasons you can't see yet. Your husband is feeling terrible regret right now, but being frustrated means he isn't remorseful. Being remorseful is feeling your pain, willing to move mountains for you to alleviate that pain. Right now he is regretful and fears the future is in dire jeopardy, which is not remorse. When he hits remorse you will know, it's hard to describe, but trust me, you will know remorse.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Aletta said:


> D day was three months ago. The affair ended just over a month ago. I'm a mess and behave in exactly the same way you describe above. He is frustrated, doesn't understand why I can't decide what I want and then take steps towards it. I, of course, get angry because he caused my suffering. And so we go in circles.
> 
> We will be separated for about three weeks because I am visiting family for a holiday.
> 
> Thank you for your offer. I need all the help I can get.


He will push you to get over it and most ws do this. This leads to rugsweeping. Your going to go thru many stages as others have already laid out and drifting on is very correct to wait at least 6 months to let the emotional roller-coaster calm down a little. What you think you want today may not be what you want in a couple of months and that's ok. 

Him going to therapy and such are not really remorse but him doing what he thinks he needs to do to keep the marriage intact. Remorse will show up when he loses the "frustrated" attitude and understands just how much he hurt you and understands things are on your time line for healing not his.


----------



## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

honcho said:


> Him going to therapy and such are not really remorse but him doing what he thinks he needs to do to keep the marriage intact. Remorse will show up when he loses the "frustrated" attitude and understands just how much he hurt you and understands things are on your time line for healing not his.


The other day I snapped and told him that pushing me will only make things worse and is the best way for him to lose me. So he backed off. I think he is starting to realise hat it will take as long as it takes and that he can't manage my recovery.

The way he ended up having an A and quickly made some crazy decisions, and the way he snapped out of it over night has all genuinely scared him. Like he was in a drug infused madness and then just woke up. He realised he has some deep emotional issues and wants to resolve them. He is genuinely keen to continue therapy.

Luckily, my personality is such that I couldn't rugsweep if I wanted to. I can't hide my emotions and pretend. So I think this will help me in this situation.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Aletta said:


> D day was three months ago. The affair ended just over a month ago. I'm a mess and behave in exactly the same way you describe above. He is frustrated, doesn't understand why I can't decide what I want and then take steps towards it. I, of course, get angry because he caused my suffering. And so we go in circles.


That's not remorse* at all*. This is all about what HE stands to lose.

You keep saying he's so full of remorse but that's *not* remorse. What you're seeing is REGRET.


----------



## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> That's not remorse* at all*. This is all about what HE stands to lose.
> 
> You keep saying he's so full of remorse but that's *not* remorse. What you're seeing is REGRET.


Do people ever move from regret to remorse? Should I accept regret at this stage?


----------



## Wife5362 (Oct 30, 2013)

Aletta;18258762[ said:


> *D day was three months ago. The affair ended just over a month ago*. I'm a mess and behave in exactly the same way you describe above. He is frustrated, doesn't understand why I can't decide what I want and then take steps towards it. I, of course, get angry because he caused my suffering. And so we go in circles.
> 
> We will be separated for about three weeks because I am visiting family for a holiday.
> 
> Thank you for your offer. I need all the help I can get.


Am I understanding this correctly. You discovered his affair 3 months ago, but it took him 2 more months to end it? 

And now he is frustrated that you can't quickly decide what you want? It seems it took him some time to stop his affair and decide that he wanted the marriage. He should be grateful you are even considering staying married to him!


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Wife5362 said:


> Am I understanding this correctly. You discovered his affair 3 months ago, but it took him 2 more months to end it?
> 
> And now he is frustrated that you can't quickly decide what you want? It seems it took him some time to stop his affair and decide that he wanted the marriage. He should be grateful you are even considering staying married to him!


Agreed! If it took him 2 months to stop after discovery - he is nowhere near remorse - he is just scared sh!t he is going to lose his situation....


----------



## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

I doubt remorse, remorse is being sad at the pain caused to other person I would say most people don't show remorse they just realize the grass wasn't greener and want what they had back until they find the next patch of green grass.


----------



## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

Wife5362 said:


> Am I understanding this correctly. You discovered his affair 3 months ago, but it took him 2 more months to end it?
> 
> And now he is frustrated that you can't quickly decide what you want? It seems it took him some time to stop his affair and decide that he wanted the marriage. He should be grateful you are even considering staying married to him!





Truthseeker1 said:


> Agreed! If it took him 2 months to stop after discovery - he is nowhere near remorse - he is just scared sh!t he is going to lose his situation....


Yup. On D day he came home after work, told me about A, packed his bags and went to her. Returned a week later. False R.for a few weeks. Left again, came back the day after. Then I played the sad "pick me" game for a bit and won. Then he snapped out of it, the fog lifted, he went into full on "let's make our marriage great" mode and I went along. Then after a few weeks I snapped and decided I couldn't just take him back. So we are now engaged in a dance of back and forth, and all that. 

I think I need a time out and sort myself out.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Aletta said:


> Yup. On D day he came home after work, told me about A, packed his bags and went to her. Returned a week later. False R.for a few weeks. Left again, came back the day after. Then I played the sad "pick me" game for a bit and won. Then he snapped out of it, the fog lifted, he went into full on "let's make our marriage great" mode and I went along. Then after a few weeks I snapped and decided I couldn't just take him back. So we are now engaged in a dance of back and forth, and all that.
> 
> I think I need a time out and sort myself out.


Yes you need time to let your emotions cool and given your husbands actions time to watch him. It's not unusual for a ws to be "all in" in the very beginning and once things calm down go right back into an affair, they just get sneakier. 

Both parties underestimate the work it takes for a successful R. He left twice, what were his reasons for coming back. Did he dump her or did she dump him? Is the ow married?


----------



## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

2 months???? Oh how nice of him. Kick him out tell him you need to think about it and you have no idea how long you will need ....he rubbed the affair on u for 2 months, unreal....he can't say one word to you

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

honcho said:


> Both parties underestimate the work it takes for a successful R. He left twice, what were his reasons for coming back. Did he dump her or did she dump him? Is the ow married?


He came back for the kids after the first attempt to leave. But he was still not ready to stay away from OW. She was after him, pretty full on. The second time he came back the day after because of me - he realised it was all a stupid mistake amd all that. 

So D-day was about telling me and leaving me, but he wasn't very good at it LOL


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Aletta said:


> Yup. On D day he came home after work, told me about A, packed his bags and went to her. Returned a week later. False R.for a few weeks. Left again, came back the day after. Then I played the sad "pick me" game for a bit and won. Then he snapped out of it, the fog lifted, he went into full on "let's make our marriage great" mode and I went along. Then after a few weeks I snapped and decided I couldn't just take him back. So we are now engaged in a dance of back and forth, and all that.
> 
> I think I need a time out and sort myself out.


I feel so bad for you. 

I am amazed that you let him come back. Twice. Ugh.

And even sadder, you think you've 'won' this cheater who had *NO* qualms about deserting his wife and family.

Twice.

"Fog" is a myth. He was doing exactly what he WANTED to do but eventually, knew he couldn't successfully pull it off so he came running back to what was familiar. There are a lot of reasons these remorseless cheaters come back, and they aren't always altruistic. Maybe his OW booted his ass out and decided she didn't want him full time. Maybe after he got there he decided it wasn't quite the Fantasy Land he thought it would be so he came back home. Maybe splitting his assets, alimony, child support etc. were enough to scare him into coming back home. And *never *underestimate a man's need to NOT look like a failure - and running off to his OWs house and deserting his wife and family makes him a *huge* failure in the eyes of his kids, his friends, family, loved ones, co-workers, neighbors and everyone else. And some have a strong sense of responsibility to their family and have to come back to meet that responsibility.

It's not always 'love' that brings them back.

Honestly? I think you're very, very *wise* for re-thinking your position about exactly who it is you think you've 'won.' 

VERY wise.


----------



## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

Aletta said:


> Do people ever move from regret to remorse? Should I accept regret at this stage?


Aletta - firstly, I am so sorry that you are here. But I hope that like many of us, you find TAM to be helpful in making you feel less alone and lost.

I think that regret is exactly what you should accept and expect from your husband at the moment. Remorse will likely take a lot more time. Both are important.

Regret is inward-looking. It about your husband confronting his own weakness and shame and directly acknowledging the lack of honour and character revealed by his choice to cheat. Coldly, it is about him recognising and addressing the damage that he has done to himself by choosing to act as he did (as selfish as that may seem at that point). Remorse looks outward and is about your husband confronting and addressing the consequences of his actions and choices on you and your children. For me, my husband showed regret when he responded "I can't believe that I did that" or "Please forgive me for doing this horrible thing". When he began comforting me rather than prioritising his guilt and shame, listened resiliently to my outpourings of pain and anger, and proactively asked me what I needed to feel loved and safe, then I began to see remorse. Regret requires self-knowledge. Remorse requires empathy.

If I put a timeline to my experience, my husband showed regret almost immediately. Unlike you, I was lucky in that my D-day was after the affair had ended. Remorse only really came when he began to fully appreciate the consequences his affair had had (around 6 months after D-day?). Considering that it took me several months to meaningfully start processing what the affair had done to me and my view of my husband and our marriage, I think it would have been premature for me to expect my husband's remorse earlier. 

I have something to add on the subject of regret. Many WS's try to skate by on "I'm very sorry", " I never meant to hurt you", "It was a moment of madness" etc. without ever confronting the reality that they were in complete control of their actions and choices the whole time. The "reasons for the affair" do not excuse cheating. More worryingly, they can be used to make the affair an anomaly - something that should never have happened, but for the perfect storm of x, y and z happening. Reasons may be able to explain circumstances and states of mind, but they do not excuse the choice to cheat itself. I think that true regret is about the WS realising that there can never be an excuse.


----------



## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

Mizzbak said:


> Aletta - firstly, I am so sorry that you are here. But I hope that like many of us, you find TAM to be helpful in making you feel less alone and lost.
> 
> I think that regret is exactly what you should accept and expect from your husband at the moment. Remorse will likely take a lot more time. Both are important.
> 
> ...


Damn that's good stuff! I like the definitions/differences for regret vs remorse.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Aletta said:


> Yup. On D day he came home after work, told me about A, packed his bags and went to her. Returned a week later. False R.for a few weeks. Left again, came back the day after. Then I played the sad "pick me" game for a bit and won. Then he snapped out of it, the fog lifted, he went into full on "let's make our marriage great" mode and I went along. Then after a few weeks I snapped and decided I couldn't just take him back. So we are now engaged in a dance of back and forth, and all that.
> 
> I think I need a time out and sort myself out.


How are you doing today?


----------



## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

Truthseeker1 said:


> How are you doing today?


I'm managing, thanks.

I went to see my doctor about the meds. After that husband and I spent the rest of the afternoon in town, had a few drinks. We dropped by the church in which we got married 9 years ago. It was very soothing for me, but he was extremely uncomfortable. Serves him right :grin2:

I had no bad mood swings today, but had to fight off a few waves of despair. Today I had no desire to show him how much I hurt. I wanted to keep it private, it made me feel stronger for some reason.


----------



## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

If the number of death bed confessions are any metric, I would say true remorse that comes quickly, completely, and honestly without being caught or prompted, is exceedingly rare. Heck I found out my dear, sweet mother had an A long after she died. Apparently she told somebody close to her deathbed and years later they told me.


----------

