# How to educate a young man about marriage?



## 347055

I have a young relative who has dated a lot of women. Unfortunately, he is old enough that several have wanted to get married, thankfully when they brought up the subject he ended the relationship. Frankly, despite having been happily married for more than 5 decades, in these times and for his generation see no benefit to marry. I have many friends and relatives who have lived with a woman for decades, so-called common law. Just the same as being married without all the drama and trauma of filing for divorce if things go south. And, have had several friends where the relationship soured as soon as they marched down the aisle. Seems once a man is locked into a marriage, the woman begins to tighten the screws in every respect.


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## Mr.Married

You assume your experience will be his.

5 decades of no benefit sounds like your not the best person to teach him of marriage.


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## SpinyNorman

If he's someone you talk to about this stuff you can mention your opinion. If not, it is likely to come off as unwelcome.


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## bobert

Rus47 said:


> Unfortunately, he is old enough that several have wanted to get married, thankfully he dumped them when they brought up the subject.


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## 347055

Mr.Married said:


> You assume your experience will be his.
> 
> 5 decades of no benefit sounds like your not the best person to teach him of marriage.


You misunderstand. I married a long time ago and our marriage has been and remains wonderful, NO regrets, only good NO bad. Times have changed, conditions for a young person are totally different from when my wife and I started dating and married. Today, as witness the pages and pages of unhappy people asking people here how to escape the hell they are in, it seems marriage isn't a very good option for a young man. I can't tell him there is any way he could find someone to spend a blissful married lifetime with.


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## Enigma32

To be fair, you are on a website where people come to vent their problems and ask advice so it will give a skewed perspective. It's like asking a divorce lawyer what they think about marriage.


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## LisaDiane

But...why wouldn't you want him to experience ALL of life that he wants to experience, the good AND the bad...? That's actually what life is, a mixture of good and bad, and there is actually alot of value in emotional growth from living through both, especially when it comes to relationships! Also, not marrying has many of the same pitfalls as marriage, so it's NO guarantee that he will be happier remaining unmarried

I would advise him to make HIS goals for himself and his life a reality, and if that includes marriage, make sure he knows the risks and ways to minimize them.


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## hubbyintrubby

LisaDiane said:


> But...why wouldn't you want him to experience ALL of life that he wants to experience, the good AND the bad...? That's actually what life is, a mixture of good and bad, and there is actually alot of value in emotional growth from living through both, especially when it comes to relationships! Also, not marrying has many of the same pitfalls as marriage, so it's NO guarantee that he will be happier remaining unmarried
> 
> I would advise him to make HIS goals for himself and his life a reality, and if that includes marriage, make sure he knows the risks and ways to minimize them.


I don't mean to TJ...so if I am, someone can maybe let me know...but I'm curious what you think the same pitfalls of not marrying are, compared to marrying. What do those same pitfalls include?


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## As'laDain

Rus47 said:


> I have a young relative who has dated a lot of women. Unfortunately, he is old enough that several have wanted to get married, thankfully he dumped them when they brought up the subject. Frankly, despite having been married more than 5 decades, see no benefit these days for a man to formally marry. I have many friends and relatives who have lived with a woman for decades, so-called common law. Just the same as being married without all the drama and trauma of filing for divorce if things go south. And, have had several friends where the relationship soured as soon as they marched down the aisle. Seems once a man is locked into a marriage, the woman begins to tighten the screws in every respect.
> 
> Are there any books I could send him to acquaint him with the fact is a sheep ready to be sheared if he ties the knot formally?



It's not that hard. Just remind him that in any relationship, people have total control of themselves and zero control over anyone else. 

If you can get him to truly understand that, then he will be fine. Regardless of whether he decides to marry.


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## LisaDiane

hubbyintrubby said:


> I don't mean to TJ...so if I am, someone can maybe let me know...but I'm curious what you think the same pitfalls of not marrying are, compared to marrying. What do those same pitfalls include?


I just meant some of the painful parts of marriage also exist in any long term relationship. I've seen plenty of partners tighten the screws in any committed relationship. 

Does that answer your question? I can explain what I mean in even more detail, if you'd like...


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## OutofRetirement

Rus47 said:


> *I have many friends and relatives who have lived with a woman for decades, so-called common law.*
> 
> *Just the same as being married without all the drama and trauma of filing for divorce if things go south.*


I don't believe your idea of "common law" is correct. You can search on the internet for common law if you want to know more.

There are benefits and drawbacks from being officially married or in common-law marriage or just cohabitating. There have been studies, so you can look at the statistics of, let's say, how long a person lives if they are in those situations. The problem with statistics like that is that if, let's say, most married men live longer and are healthier, that does not mean that you, personally, may live longer and be healthier. There are other outside factors that may increase or decrease the favored statistic. That is why I believe it is hard to convince someone that marriage is an overall advantage or disadvantage.


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## Luckylucky

Leave him alone and don’t drag him into your pit. You want someone just like you to make your misery ok.

I wish him very well and hope he gets 50 decades and more filled with marital bliss one day!


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## Diana7

I would always encourage any young person to get married rather than live together or jump from one relationship to another, and I am really encouraged that nearly all the young people I know are either married or want to get married. In this young mans case I would advse him to stop having any sort of relationship because he is clearly messing with peoples emotions and hearts. Either that or he tells them immediately that he has no interest in ever getting married and is a committment phobe.

How sad that you want to fill him with your negativity and anti marriage retoric, although he sounds as if he is already filled with it. He will miss out on so much if he never gets married, but one day he will meet the one and do it I bet.


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## Diana7

Rus47 said:


> You misunderstand. I married a long time ago and our marriage has been and remains wonderful, NO regrets, only good NO bad. Times have changed, conditions for a young person are totally different from when my wife and I started dating and married. Today, as witness the pages and pages of unhappy people asking people here how to escape the hell they are in, it seems marriage isn't a very good option for a young man. I can't tell him there is any way he could find someone to spend a blissful married lifetime with.


Surely you realise that there are countless good marriages out there where they dont have to go and ask for help with their issues? Marriage hasnt changed, we just hear more about problems these days with the internet.


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## zookeeper

Unsolicited advice is usually unwanted advice. Unless he asks you directly, I'd say keep your opinion to yourself.


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## Totally T

I think the whole live-together thing ends up largely detrimental to women.

Laws regarding divorce settlements and child arrangements are barbaric and penalize men onerously and unfairly. Take a look at the MGTOW movement.

I just learned this afternoon that my nephew intends to marry a woman who he loves. I asked if he'd talked to her about various subjects at length. Told her what I thought of marriage (can be very excellent boost to one's appreciation of human life and living) and children (also boosts your appreciation of humanity).


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## Totally T

Diana7 said:


> Surely you realise that there are countless good marriages out there where they dont have to go and ask for help with their issues? Marriage hasnt changed, we just hear more about problems these days with the internet.


Interesting point. I would add that society keeps separating and dividing and individuating people. . . and so we lose friends and ability to coordinate with others. . . and we can often put all our emotional eggs in one basket. Kinda stupid to think one person can satisfy all our emotional needs and wants. Men especially are losers here, have 1-2 friends total, vs. women with their support circles.


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## RClawson

I love the idea of marriage. If I ever found myself out the outside looking in I would consider it if the right individual came into my life. That being said a courship would be a minimum of a couple of years and everything would be on the table. I would never suggest anybody get married today as young as I did (22). It truly takes two very mature honest individuals who know how to communicate and are not afraid to do so.


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## Diana7

RClawson said:


> I love the idea of marriage. If I ever found myself out the outside looking in I would consider it if the right individual came into my life. That being said a courship would be a minimum of a couple of years and everything would be on the table. I would never suggest anybody get married today as young as I did (22). It truly takes two very mature honest individuals who know how to communicate and are not afraid to do so.


Thats interesting because some of the happiest marriages I know were ones where they were very yong, 19 in some cases. Still going strong 40 and more years later. Two of my best friends at the time married at age 19, still going strong 45 years later.


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## Diana7

The Mighty Fred said:


> Interesting point. I would add that society keeps separating and dividing and individuating people. . . and so we lose friends and ability to coordinate with others. . . and we can often put all our emotional eggs in one basket. Kinda stupid to think one person can satisfy all our emotional needs and wants. Men especially are losers here, have 1-2 friends total, vs. women with their support circles.


Agreed, no one person is supposed to meet all of our emotional needs. Maybe thats the mistake many make thinking they should. 
.


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## Diana7

The Mighty Fred said:


> I think the whole live-together thing ends up largely detrimental to women.
> 
> Laws regarding divorce settlements and child arrangements are barbaric and penalize men onerously and unfairly. Take a look at the MGTOW movement.
> 
> I just learned this afternoon that my nephew intends to marry a woman who he loves. I asked if he'd talked to her about various subjects at length. Told her what I thought of marriage (can be very excellent boost to one's appreciation of human life and living) and children (also boosts your appreciation of humanity).


Depends on where you live, not that bad in the UK going by the many divorces I have known. I have two young family members, my neice and half brother getting married later this year covid permitting. I am so so pleased for them. Both around 25 years old, both with such lovely partners.


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## hamadryad

I don't think anyone needs any counsel...

I know a lot of younger males(many nephews and I normally employ a fair amount in this age range)...Most aren't marrying at the same rate that my generation(x) did, nor are they marrying at an age we did either...Most are waiting until at least 30 and some aren't taking the plunge then either...

Most cite the easier access to sex with online dating, hookup culture, and with women's generally more open attitude towards sex in a casual activity sense.....That wasn't always the case....so guys often sought to marry those women...not so much anymore.

Another aspect here is that women are making more money and getting better jobs than they ever did.. I say good for them...But with that comes a dynamic where it's no longer a thing where the guy has to be considered the one to pull a lot of the weight, so this type of equality reduces the need for people to join together to form a stronger unit, in a "yin/yang" sense.....They can each stand on their own.. You might think that if two are on an equal footing it would be better as a unit, but I dunno...maybe not...Like maybe also this reduces the number of women looking for the standard SAHM deal....

I don't know what the stats are and don't care to investigate, but as someone with countless nephews and nieces. all in their 20's and early 30's and not one of them have married yet, is a telling and startling change considering the parents of all of these kids were all married before 25 or shortly after...


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## 347055

I would never suggest anybody get married today as young as I did (22). It truly takes two very mature honest individuals who know how to communicate and are not afraid to do so.
[/QUOTE]
We were 19 and 20 when we married and and both immature. Always communicated well from day one.


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## oldshirt

Diana7 said:


> Thats interesting because some of the happiest marriages I know were ones where they were very yong, 19 in some cases. Still going strong 40 and more years later. Two of my best friends at the time married at age 19, still going strong 45 years later.


Yeah but for every couple that are still happily married 40 years later there are countless couples that had horrific divorces or are just gritting their teeth and trying to endure until either the kids are grown and on their own or until one dies if they have drank the “Till Death Do Us Part” Kool Aid. 

I would never encourage a young person to marry in this day and age. It will just mean shelling out child support and possibly spousal support during what should be the prime of life.


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## Totally T

hamadryad said:


> I don't think anyone needs any counsel...
> 
> I know a lot of younger males(many nephews and I normally employ a fair amount in this age range)...Most aren't marrying at the same rate that my generation(x) did, nor are they marrying at an age we did either...Most are waiting until at least 30 and some aren't taking the plunge then either...
> 
> Most cite the easier access to sex with online dating, hookup culture, and with women's generally more open attitude towards sex in a casual activity sense.....That wasn't always the case....so guys often sought to marry those women...not so much anymore.
> 
> Another aspect here is that women are making more money and getting better jobs than they ever did.. I say good for them...But with that comes a dynamic where it's no longer a thing where the guy has to be considered the one to pull a lot of the weight, so this type of equality reduces the need for people to join together to form a stronger unit, in a "yin/yang" sense.....They can each stand on their own.. You might think that if two are on an equal footing it would be better as a unit, but I dunno...maybe not...Like maybe also this reduces the number of women looking for the standard SAHM deal....
> 
> I don't know what the stats are and don't care to investigate, but as someone with countless nephews and nieces. all in their 20's and early 30's and not one of them have married yet, is a telling and startling change considering the parents of all of these kids were all married before 25 or shortly after...



really a good summary. I would add that imho its bad for our society not to reproduce itself and that casual sex us a developmental thing.


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## bobert

oldshirt said:


> I would never encourage a young person to marry in this day and age. It will just mean shelling out child support and possibly spousal support during what should be the prime of life.


They will be responsible for child support regardless of being married or not, and depending on location they can also be responsible for spousal support even if they weren't married. 

So now young people (or let's be honest, you're referring to men) should all stop cohabitating and procreating as well? Just have their Tinder hookups and hope sex doesn't do what it was intended to do?


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## oldshirt

Rus47 said:


> You misunderstand. I married a long time ago and our marriage has been and remains wonderful, NO regrets, only good NO bad. Times have changed, conditions for a young person are totally different from when my wife and I started dating and married. Today, as witness the pages and pages of unhappy people asking people here how to escape the hell they are in, it seems marriage isn't a very good option for a young man. I can't tell him there is any way he could find someone to spend a blissful married lifetime with.


I agree with this. The times have changed to where marriage is too high of a risk for many young men and it is in most young men’s best interests to not marry, father children or even cohabitate. 

The only time and reason I think a man should consider marriage is if and when he himself wants to parent. 

And then his mate selection should be a woman of his similar socioeconomic group or higher and who has an education and career equal to or higher than his. 

And then he needs to go into marriage understanding that the marriage has a 50% chance of ending and there for he needs to take the necessary precautions and have an exit strategy.

Above all else, maintain separate finances, separate credit accounts and separate retirement accounts etc. 

If a house is purchased together, ensure that both contribute equally to the mortgage.

If he owns the house and the house is in his name only prior to the marriage, then consult a family law attorney on determining what would be the best way for him to not lose his house in the event of divorce. 

And probably the biggest piece of advice I can give to a man is never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever (ok you get the point) EVER support another able bodied adult or ever be the sole income provider.

I know that is controversial, but the divorce and child support laws are so stacked against men that any man that is the primary wage earner is at serious risk of subsidizing his ex wife and children living with some other man or subsidizing her lifestyle of riding the carousel while he eats Ramen Noodles from his one-room apartment. 

The traditional role of male breadwinner has simply become too risky and too financially devastating for men to agree to in this day and age.

My advice for young men is if you do not have an innate yearning for children - DO NOT MARRY PERIOD. I wouldn’t even advise cohabitation because men are starting to get taken to the cleaners for even living together as well.

But if at some point in your life you do develop a sincere yearning for children, then only marry and have kids with a woman of similar or greater educational level and similar or greater income and do not let her quit her job or lapse her professional licensure/credentials. 

Then maintain separate financial accounts and credit. 

You’ll still experience a financial loss. Perhaps even a significant and painful loss.

But with those precautions it should hopefully not be a devastating or permanent financial calamity.


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## oldshirt

The Mighty Fred said:


> really a good summary. I would add that imho its bad for our society not to reproduce itself and that casual sex us a developmental thing.


I disagree. The last thing the world needs is more people. 

Societies need to be reproducing less and decreasing populations. 

There hasn’t been a major war in 80 years or a population impacting plague in 100. Without these natural factors in keeping herd populations in check, people need to reduce their fecundity accordingly.


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## oldshirt

bobert said:


> They will be responsible for child support regardless of being married or not, and depending on location they can also be responsible for spousal support even if they weren't married.
> 
> So now young people (or let's be honest, you're referring to men) should all stop cohabitating and procreating as well? Just have their Tinder hookups and hope sex doesn't do what it was intended to do?


Yes.


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## oldshirt

@bobert 

If you read my other post in its entirety, I predicate highly on whether an individual man innately wants to actually father children or not.

I am of the belief that most men actually do not.

And most of the ones that do end up wanting children, do not do so until approaching midlife like say in the 30s or so. 

If that occurs, if a guy is smart, he will select a mate that is equal to or higher than his own socio economic class or educational and income potential equal to or greater than his own.

IMHO these guys that knock up these ditzy, uneducated bar flys and waitresses that are simply looking for a provider to take care of them and feed their kids, have it coming when they get taken to the cleaners and have to shell 2/3rds of their income. 

The divorce rates have been climbing and becoming a normal and predictable part of society for the last 50 years. 

Anyone dumb enough to think that their little Sexy Susie with no education and no job skills wouldn’t possible extract kids and child/spousal support out of them when they want to go back to riding the carousel is just plain ignorant and stupid and brought it on themselves. 

F’ them.

The OP posed a great question that we all need to asking. 

I offered my input and this what I teach both my son and daughter. 

This ain’t 1955 and we ain’t Ward and June Cleaver raising Wally and The Beaver anymore. 

Divorce is real and people need to prepared for it.

People don’t have to have kids and we have safe and effective means of controlling our fertility and fecundity.


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## LisaDiane

oldshirt said:


> I agree with this. The times have changed to where marriage is too high of a risk for many young men and it is in most young men’s best interests to not marry, father children or even cohabitate.
> 
> The only time and reason I think a man should consider marriage is if and when he himself wants to parent.
> 
> And then his mate selection should be a woman of his similar socioeconomic group or higher and who has an education and career equal to or higher than his.
> 
> And then he needs to go into marriage understanding that the marriage has a 50% chance of ending and there for he needs to take the necessary precautions and have an exit strategy.
> 
> Above all else, maintain separate finances, separate credit accounts and separate retirement accounts etc.
> 
> If a house is purchased together, ensure that both contribute equally to the mortgage.
> 
> If he owns the house and the house is in his name only prior to the marriage, then consult a family law attorney on determining what would be the best way for him to not lose his house in the event of divorce.
> 
> And probably the biggest piece of advice I can give to a man is never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever (ok you get the point) EVER support another able bodied adult or ever be the sole income provider.
> 
> I know that is controversial, but the divorce and child support laws are so stacked against men that any man that is the primary wage earner is at serious risk of subsidizing his ex wife and children living with some other man or subsidizing her lifestyle of riding the carousel while he eats Ramen Noodles from his one-room apartment.
> 
> The traditional role of male breadwinner has simply become too risky and too financially devastating for men to agree to in this day and age.
> 
> My advice for young men is if you do not have an innate yearning for children - DO NOT MARRY PERIOD. I wouldn’t even advise cohabitation because men are starting to get taken to the cleaners for even living together as well.
> 
> But if at some point in your life you do develop a sincere yearning for children, then only marry and have kids with a woman of similar or greater educational level and similar or greater income and do not let her quit her job or lapse her professional licensure/credentials.
> 
> Then maintain separate financial accounts and credit.
> 
> You’ll still experience a financial loss. Perhaps even a significant and painful loss.
> 
> But with those precautions it should hopefully not be a devastating or permanent financial calamity.


What you are trying to do with this advice is contain the uncontainable...all of your very sensible, well-thought-out ideas will crumble before nature's power and will! Like the Chaos Theory scientist in Jurassic Park said, "Life finds a way". You cannot control it! Nature wants us to procreate...that's why sex (or "love") is probably the most powerful motivator!

I do admire your attempt, and your To Do list is very "perfect".

But it's also COLD and heartless, and that's pretty much the polar opposite of what people are seeking in relationships. It sounds great in a post, but it simply cannot translate into the real world of relationships - emotional, unpredictable, exciting, annoying, fulfilling, painful, joyful, messy, CHAOTIC. 

And I'm not sure that relationships (and life) SHOULD be handled this way. Life is meant to be LIVED, and we are meant to be inspired through happy times, and grow through difficult times! In fact, some of the most unhappy people I know have everything they ever wanted, including money, no kids, and very few struggles.

I would much rather live a full REAL life, mistakes and all, and take a few financial hits (and I HAVE), than to be on my very ritzy deathbed with a full bank account and NO ONE by my bedside who actually loves ME at all.


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## happyhusband0005

oldshirt said:


> I agree with this. The times have changed to where marriage is too high of a risk for many young men and it is in most young men’s best interests to not marry, father children or even cohabitate.
> 
> The only time and reason I think a man should consider marriage is if and when he himself wants to parent.
> 
> And then his mate selection should be a woman of his similar socioeconomic group or higher and who has an education and career equal to or higher than his.
> 
> And then he needs to go into marriage understanding that the marriage has a 50% chance of ending and there for he needs to take the necessary precautions and have an exit strategy.
> 
> Above all else, maintain separate finances, separate credit accounts and separate retirement accounts etc.
> 
> If a house is purchased together, ensure that both contribute equally to the mortgage.
> 
> If he owns the house and the house is in his name only prior to the marriage, then consult a family law attorney on determining what would be the best way for him to not lose his house in the event of divorce.
> 
> And probably the biggest piece of advice I can give to a man is never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever (ok you get the point) EVER support another able bodied adult or ever be the sole income provider.
> 
> I know that is controversial, but the divorce and child support laws are so stacked against men that any man that is the primary wage earner is at serious risk of subsidizing his ex wife and children living with some other man or subsidizing her lifestyle of riding the carousel while he eats Ramen Noodles from his one-room apartment.
> 
> The traditional role of male breadwinner has simply become too risky and too financially devastating for men to agree to in this day and age.
> 
> My advice for young men is if you do not have an innate yearning for children - DO NOT MARRY PERIOD. I wouldn’t even advise cohabitation because men are starting to get taken to the cleaners for even living together as well.
> 
> But if at some point in your life you do develop a sincere yearning for children, then only marry and have kids with a woman of similar or greater educational level and similar or greater income and do not let her quit her job or lapse her professional licensure/credentials.
> 
> Then maintain separate financial accounts and credit.
> 
> You’ll still experience a financial loss. Perhaps even a significant and painful loss.
> 
> But with those precautions it should hopefully not be a devastating or permanent financial calamity.


The 50% failure rate of marriage is kind of misleading. The statistic includes all marriages with a large number of failed marriages being second, third with statistics on marriages after the first failing at exponentially higher rates. Some people just don't do marriage well. 

I think the current state of humanity has become more and more self centered which means marriages will probably fail at higher rates in the future than even the 50% we are at now. 

I do agree with the points regarding over population. There are a lot of reasons why this is going to be a bigger and bigger problem. 

I don't know the solution but there are 2 basic truths. 1. Fewer and fewer people have the basic mental makeup to be successful in marriage, communication skills are just getting worse and worse and people are becoming more and more self centered. 2. Fewer and fewer people should be having kids because too many people just suck as parents. 
If guys are so worried they are going to be taken to the cleaners, just get a prenup. I think a lot of people think prenups only make sense for very wealthy people, but maybe it's just a practical step everyone should take. Just a simple agreement that says basically I keep everything I come in with, she keeps everything she came in with, there is no spousal support, If we divorce with kids any child support goes into a trust account so the payer can monitor the spending to ensure it is being used for the kids, and whatever we accumulate together gets split 50/50 or based on the percentage of what we each put into the acquisition. 

Lets not pretend that men are saints and they just get screwed in divorce but had no responsibility for the marriage ending. Some guys marry bad women yes true, but if you get married and turn out to be a crap husband, well sorry you bare some responsibility for the situation you're in. I see too many threads where a man or a woman come in here talking about their cheating partner or their spouse has become distant and stopped having sex with them but it seems too often people want to complain while taking zero accountability, or they do accept responsibility and admit the screwed up and were bad husbands or wives but still act like they can't believe their spouse left. 

I think people waiting to get married is probably a good thing given the cultural shifts we are seeing, I think people are probably really ready for commitment and being married much later in life than they use to be. 

So the best advice is probably don't get married because you think you should, get married because you want to spend the rest of your life with this person and you are fully confident in that you're both ready for it. And hey while you're at it why not get a prenup to protect both of you.


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## oldshirt

LisaDiane said:


> What you are trying to do with this advice is contain the uncontainable...all of your very sensible, well-thought-out ideas will crumble before nature's power and will! Like the Chaos Theory scientist in Jurassic Park said, "Life finds a way". You cannot control it! Nature wants us to procreate...that's why sex (or "love") is probably the most powerful motivator!
> 
> I do admire your attempt, and your To Do list is very "perfect".
> 
> But it's also COLD and heartless, and that's pretty much the polar opposite of what people are seeking in relationships. It sounds great in a post, but it simply cannot translate into the real world of relationships - emotional, unpredictable, exciting, annoying, fulfilling, painful, joyful, messy, CHAOTIC.
> 
> And I'm not sure that relationships (and life) SHOULD be handled this way. Life is meant to be LIVED, and we are meant to be inspired through happy times, and grow through difficult times! In fact, some of the most unhappy people I know have everything they ever wanted, including money, no kids, and very few struggles.
> 
> I would much rather live a full REAL life, mistakes and all, and take a few financial hits (and I HAVE), than to be on my very ritzy deathbed with a full bank account and NO ONE by my bedside who actually loves ME at all.


The key word to all of this is “Mitigation.”

You are correct, one cannot control all of the variables and one certainly cannot control all matters of the heart or of the loins.

And trust me, my heart and my loins have certainly lead me away from any semblance of logic many many times.

But while we cannot control all outcomes, we can mitigate their impacts and lessen their level of destruction to us. 

We cannot control the other driver running a red light but we can reduce the impact to us by wearing our seatbelts, having air bags and maintaining our awareness and alertness so we can hit the brakes and take evasive action in time to lessen the impact and negative outcomes that may occur to us. 

Our car may still be damaged. It may even be totaled, but between having proper safety equipment in place and taking our own evasive actions, we may walk away unharmed or at least harmed less than if we had simply done nothing with no forethought of potential consequences. 

I see this as the same. 

Marriage of our grandparents era is no longer applicable to marriage of younger generation today.

We live in a different society with different social and religious beliefs and customs. We have different economics and different family law structures and different divorce and custody laws and practices.

A 22 year old lives in a completely different world and society than a 22 year old in 1965 did so we can no longer use that model. 

To make the assumptions today that people did in 1970 or 1985 is simply irresponsible.

My kids in their teens do not live in the same world than I did in my teens and their relationships and marriage will not be like my marriage. 

It would be irresponsible of me as a parent to try to make them believe that the marriage we had is what they will have because the conditions and playing fields have changed.

They cannot control or avoid all the pitfalls and challenges they face, but they can reduce the level of negative impact they may experience.


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## 347055

oldshirt said:


> I agree with this. The times have changed to where marriage is too high of a risk for many young men and it is in most young men’s best interests to not marry, father children or even cohabitate.


Thanks for the list of cautions. I was hoping that maybe someone had compiled comprehensive advice expanding on these into a book that a young man might find beneficial to read. I hadn't realized that even cohabitation exposed a man to the same risks as marriage. As others have mentioned, my young relative is already predisposed to stay far from marriage, but he had mentioned moving in with a GF once, so need to advise him to be cautious with duration of those arrangements and be sure of the birth control.

Your post summarizes what I was trying to ask. Thank you.


----------



## oldshirt

happyhusband0005 said:


> The 50% failure rate of marriage is kind of misleading. The statistic includes all marriages with a large number of failed marriages being second, third with statistics on marriages after the first failing at exponentially higher rates. Some people just don't do marriage well.
> 
> I think the current state of humanity has become more and more self centered which means marriages will probably fail at higher rates in the future than even the 50% we are at now.
> 
> I do agree with the points regarding over population. There are a lot of reasons why this is going to be a bigger and bigger problem.
> 
> I don't know the solution but there are 2 basic truths. 1. Fewer and fewer people have the basic mental makeup to be successful in marriage, communication skills are just getting worse and worse and people are becoming more and more self centered. 2. Fewer and fewer people should be having kids because too many people just suck as parents.
> If guys are so worried they are going to be taken to the cleaners, just get a prenup. I think a lot of people think prenups only make sense for very wealthy people, but maybe it's just a practical step everyone should take. Just a simple agreement that says basically I keep everything I come in with, she keeps everything she came in with, there is no spousal support, If we divorce with kids any child support goes into a trust account so the payer can monitor the spending to ensure it is being used for the kids, and whatever we accumulate together gets split 50/50 or based on the percentage of what we each put into the acquisition.
> 
> Lets not pretend that men are saints and they just get screwed in divorce but had no responsibility for the marriage ending. Some guys marry bad women yes true, but if you get married and turn out to be a crap husband, well sorry you bare some responsibility for the situation you're in. I see too many threads where a man or a woman come in here talking about their cheating partner or their spouse has become distant and stopped having sex with them but it seems too often people want to complain while taking zero accountability, or they do accept responsibility and admit the screwed up and were bad husbands or wives but still act like they can't believe their spouse left.
> 
> I think people waiting to get married is probably a good thing given the cultural shifts we are seeing, I think people are probably really ready for commitment and being married much later in life than they use to be.
> 
> So the best advice is probably don't get married because you think you should, get married because you want to spend the rest of your life with this person and you are fully confident in that you're both ready for it. And hey while you're at it why not get a prenup to protect both of you.


I agree with everything you said except I don’t believe communication is getting worse. 

I actually think people communicate better today that generations past.

It’s not that we don’t communicate, it’s that we don’t agree and we end up doing what we want anyway. 

We as a society simply have more freedoms, more options and more opportunities than generations past. 

One the whole that is a good thing. But it also means that there will be more people divorcing and moving on when that marriage is no longer working for them. 

We can do one if a couple things -

- we can point fingers and tell people they are wrong and that they shouldn’t do whatever it is that they are doing.

- or we can accept that we live in a world of options and that people may choose options other than what we’d like and so we take precautions and mitigation measures to reduce the negative impact to us if and when they do so.


----------



## Totally T

People communicate worse. People spend less time together across the board. 

Having many options actually can be limiting and debilitating; the paradox of choice.


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## She'sStillGotIt

Rus47 said:


> _*Frankly, despite having been married more than 5 decades, see no benefit these days for a man to formally marry. *_


I feel the same way - but for women. Marriage for a lot of women is nothing more than a life of servitude to a big man-child who suddenly forgets how to wipe his own ass and sees his wife as his housekeeper, cook, laundress, appt. maker, food shopper and mommy.

So I heartily agree. Maybe you can talk to HER instead and warn her off before she does something stupid and marries him.


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## oldshirt

On the matter of prenups, I do believe that all couples today should have a prenup. 

However that needs to be tempered with the understanding that prenups are not a silver bullet and prenups cannot usurp divorce laws. One cannot preemptively agree to something that is not supported by law.

Example; an employer cannot get a desperate potential employee to agree to work for less than minimum wage. Even if that employee agrees to and sign the employment contract, that contract is not valid because one can not agree to something that is fundamentally illegal. 

Divorce laws maintain that children shall be financially supported and maintained by both parents (unless one is deemed unfit) and divorce laws maintain that marital assets shall be divided somewhat equitably and that neither party shall be left homeless in the street requiring public assistance if there is marital assets available to support them.

What that means is that one cannot prenup away their child supporting responsibilities and it also means that if a millionaire marries an uneducated pauper, they cannot expect to cast them out penniless and expect society to support them until they can support themselves. 

A prenup can influence to a limited degree how SOME assets are divided and how child support is determined. But it can’t usurp divorce law or eliminate one’s lawful responsibilities in a divorce. 

Don’t expect to be the sole or largely primary breadwinner and expect a prenup to relieve you of child support or spousal support in various circumstances. They just don’t work that way.


----------



## oldshirt

Rus47 said:


> Thanks for the list of cautions. I was hoping that maybe someone had compiled comprehensive advice expanding on these into a book that a young man might find beneficial to read. I hadn't realized that even cohabitation exposed a man to the same risks as marriage. As others have mentioned, my young relative is already predisposed to stay far from marriage, but he had mentioned moving in with a GF once, so need to advise him to be cautious with duration of those arrangements and be sure of the birth control.
> 
> Your post summarizes what I was trying to ask. Thank you.


Cohabitation is often posing many of the same risks as a marital contract.

Even the courts are starting to view marriage as “just a piece of paper” in that if a couple is living together as a “couple” that many of the laws in asset division and partner support are still applicable.

There is even a case making its rounds across forums like this where a man ended up having to pay support to a woman that was employed, had children from a previous relationship but no kids of their own and who he DID NOT cohabitate with. 

He simply made a lot more money than she did and she stayed with him on weekends frequently and they would go on trips and he would buy her things and would help her out periodically with bills etc while they were dating.

The court ruled that since he made a lot more money than her and that since he had established a pattern of providing various goods and services for her, he was obligated to maintain her level of lifestyle for a number of years even though they were not married, did not live together, did not have children together and even though she had her own income and home. 

Even just dating is not completely safe.


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## oldshirt

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I feel the same way - but for women. Marriage for a lot of women is nothing more than a life of servitude to a big man-child who suddenly forgets how to wipe his own ass and sees his wife as his housekeeper, cook, laundress, appt. maker, food shopper and mommy.
> 
> So I heartily agree. Maybe you can talk to HER instead and warn her off before she does something stupid and marries him.


I agree with this. 

We need to start educating our girls on the potential pitfalls of marriage and children and stop treating girls that their mission in life is to get married and crap out kids. 

Statistically more women are receiving college degrees today and as more career fields shift from manufacturing and manual labor to service and tech driven fields, women may not be simply catching up to but actually surpassing men in income potential. 

Women will need to protect their own assets and their own income potentials as well. 

Right now courts are still typically biased towards supporting the mother.

But joint shared custody is rapidly becoming the default and it’s just a matter of time before the courts have to recognize that a number of women are out-earning their husbands and the husbands are going to start getting child and spousal support. 

In fact one day a few years ago when my wife and I were having a bit of a tiff, she grumbled something under her breath about divorcing me and “take you for every cent you have” and I laughed in her face and said, “Sugar, you made more than me last year. If anyone is going to be paying out in a divorce, it will be YOU ha ha.” 

The tiff came to an immediate end. 

So yes, this is not a male vs female issue. It’s something that everyone needs to understand and be aware of.


----------



## Anastasia6

Well I can say that many quality women wouldn't have a long term relationship without marriage. If you are just worried about sex then stay single. If you are worried about who is going to take you to your chemo therapy when you have prostrate cancer then you get married. 

Marriage is so much more than just sex and money. It is designed to form a long term bond and to help you get through tough times. Sure people get divorced but marriage is a promise to give yourself to another for life. Through good and bad times. This promise is a form and expression of love. I am glad that he was wise to get rid of them when they brought up marriage as those women deserve someone who loves them and is willing to stick around during hard times. I hope he isn't wanting children because again most quality women don't want children outside of marriage. Can you find a baby mama sure and that is exactly the kind of woman he deserves but the children deserve better.

I don't think anyone so bitter and shallow should be advising the young.


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## Enigma32

The idea that marriage is a lifelong promise should have died when no-fault divorce became a thing. Now, marriage is basically an agreement to stick together as long as it is convenient to do so.


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## oldshirt

Anastasia6 said:


> Well I can say that many quality women wouldn't have a long term relationship without marriage. If you are just worried about sex then stay single. If you are worried about who is going to take you to your chemo therapy when you have prostrate cancer then you get married.
> 
> Marriage is so much more than just sex and money. It is designed to form a long term bond and to help you get through tough times. Sure people get divorced but marriage is a promise to give yourself to another for life. Through good and bad times. This promise is a form and expression of love. I am glad that he was wise to get rid of them when they brought up marriage as those women deserve someone who loves them and is willing to stick around during hard times. I hope he isn't wanting children because again most quality women don't want children outside of marriage. Can you find a baby mama sure and that is exactly the kind of woman he deserves but the children deserve better.
> 
> I don't think anyone so bitter and shallow should be advising the young.


It’s not bitter and shallow to advise people on the realities of marriage, it is simply wise. 

These pitfalls and challenges are real. People need to be aware of them and take the proper precautions to protect themselves as best they can. 

I think the step is take a hard and honest look inside yourself and determine if marriage and family is what you actually want and if it is actually a viable option for you or not.

And part of that evaluation needs to be, can I afford to divorce and what measures can I take to protect myself if it occurs.

We can drive safe, but we can’t control the other drivers on the road. The same applies to marriage. We can follow all the rules but we can’t force our partner or other people to do the same. 

If people don’t truly want to marry or have kids, they shouldn’t.


----------



## Anastasia6

Enigma32 said:


> The idea that marriage is a lifelong promise should have died when no-fault divorce became a thing. Now, marriage is basically an agreement to stick together as long as it is convenient to do so.


Only for some. For those of us in long term marriages it means something. Though we haven't ever wanted to separate. I can honestly say that I would not be with my husband now if he had not wanted to marry me. I had several proposal as a young woman and I wouldn't want a man who wanted to stay single because that would make it easier for him to leave me. That's a ****ty way to start a long term relationship with preparing for the day you want to leave.


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## Anastasia6

oldshirt said:


> It’s not bitter and shallow to advise people on the realities of marriage, it is simply wise.
> 
> These pitfalls and challenges are real. People need to be aware of them and take the proper precautions to protect themselves as best they can.
> 
> I think the step is take a hard and honest look inside yourself and determine if marriage and family is what you actually want and if it is actually a viable option for you or not.
> 
> And part of that evaluation needs to be, can I afford to divorce and what measures can I take to protect myself if it occurs.
> 
> We can drive safe, but we can’t control the other drivers on the road. The same applies to marriage. We can follow all the rules but we can’t force our partner or other people to do the same.
> 
> If people don’t truly want to marry or have kids, they shouldn’t.


I agree but you must realize that choice also comes with pitfalls. The love of my life and the man I've been married to for 27 years who claims he could imagine life without me would be without me if he had not loved me enough to marry me. 

As I stated this young man is welcome to stay single. I also think it honorable that he dumped the women who wanted to marry if he does not. Too many times those women will hang on thinking he'll change his mind. But they deserve someone who loves them. I already stated that.

I also stated other truths.


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## Enigma32

Anastasia6 said:


> Only for some. For those of us in long term marriages it means something. Though we haven't ever wanted to separate. I can honestly say that I would not be with my husband now if he had not wanted to marry me. I had several proposal as a young woman and I wouldn't want a man who wanted to stay single because that would make it easier for him to leave me. That's a ****ty way to start a long term relationship with preparing for the day you want to leave.


You've been married for 27 years and that's awesome! Really. Problem is, that is the exception, not the rule. All you have to do is read these forums for a bit and see the various miniscule justifications for divorce people have.


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## Anastasia6

Enigma32 said:


> You've been married for 27 years and that's awesome! Really. Probably is, that is the exception, not the rule. All you have to do is read these forums for a bit and see the various miniscule justifications for divorce people have.


Sure and you think this forum represents most happy marriages? You think happily married people come here regular? I know many people happily married over 20 years.
I happened upon here because I was trying to get some sexual advice about swings and there aren't many forums for regular sex advice. I'm not sure why I stuck around. But there are many many people who are happily married. There are many men who would be lost without their wives they just have better things to do then come to this divorce forum.


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## oldshirt

Enigma32 said:


> The idea that marriage is a lifelong promise should have died when no-fault divorce became a thing. Now, marriage is basically an agreement to stick together as long as it is convenient to do so.


I’m not quite as nihilistic but I think it is important for people to understand that there are no guarantees in the world and that it is in their better interests to realize that divorce is always a possibility. 

That goes both ways and is not always a bad thing. 

People need to be aware that their partner can up and leave one day and they need to be at least somewhat prepared for that. 

But I also think that people need to also give themselves permission to exit stage-left when they need to and always be able to do so should their partner become abusive/drunk/addicted/unfaithful etc 

I don’t think people should take divorce lightly or do it frivolously. But neither do I condemn it across the board or think that it is always a bad thing. Sometimes it is necessary and literally saves lives. 

If we treat it as a fact of life and a component of existence and conduct ourselves as such and are prepared for it, then it is not the destructive evil that it can potentially be.


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## LisaDiane

oldshirt said:


> The key word to all of this is “Mitigation.”
> 
> You are correct, one cannot control all of the variables and one certainly cannot control all matters of the heart or of the loins.
> 
> And trust me, my heart and my loins have certainly lead me away from any semblance of logic many many times.
> 
> But while we cannot control all outcomes, we can mitigate their impacts and lessen their level of destruction to us.
> 
> We cannot control the other driver running a red light but we can reduce the impact to us by wearing our seatbelts, having air bags and maintaining our awareness and alertness so we can hit the brakes and take evasive action in time to lessen the impact and negative outcomes that may occur to us.
> 
> Our car may still be damaged. It may even be totaled, but between having proper safety equipment in place and taking our own evasive actions, we may walk away unharmed or at least harmed less than if we had simply done nothing with no forethought of potential consequences.
> 
> I see this as the same.
> 
> Marriage of our grandparents era is no longer applicable to marriage of younger generation today.
> 
> We live in a different society with different social and religious beliefs and customs. We have different economics and different family law structures and different divorce and custody laws and practices.
> 
> A 22 year old lives in a completely different world and society than a 22 year old in 1965 did so we can no longer use that model.
> 
> To make the assumptions today that people did in 1970 or 1985 is simply irresponsible.
> 
> My kids in their teens do not live in the same world than I did in my teens and their relationships and marriage will not be like my marriage.
> 
> It would be irresponsible of me as a parent to try to make them believe that the marriage we had is what they will have because the conditions and playing fields have changed.
> 
> They cannot control or avoid all the pitfalls and challenges they face, but they can reduce the level of negative impact they may experience.


Hmm...You are only trading one negative impact for another, I think.
And while you might be "mitigating their impacts and lessening their level of destruction" for yourself (or whomever you are advocating to), you are also preventing any and all GOOD impacts and potential wonderful outcomes. You are taking away the risk but then also blocking the possibility of any reward.

Your post I first quoted wasn't about mitigation, it was a rather heartless list of protections and what you believe are very likely negative consequences. And what you highlighted was almost all about the financial losses that a man incurs because of marriage and "cohabitation". Why make money the only consideration on whether a relationship is worth pursuing and how...? Money should be the LEAST considered aspect of how valuable a relationship with someone is...at least, for me it is. 

It was a decidedly hopeless view of the potential outcomes...You weren't advocating using a seatbelt - you were saying no one should drive at all!
But then I want to know, how would you characterize the experiences where you tossed caution to the wind, threw away your logic, and went with your heart and loins...? Were they grave mistakes that had NO positive impact on your life...? Or were they some of your best memories and some of the most fun things you could experience that also helped you grow and overcome, and that you would choose to do all over again...? Because THAT is what makes life worth living - THOSE moments. Why warn someone completely against those?

I still believe you are attempting to apply logic and intellect to something that will simply NOT abide by it, because it's ruled by feelings and emotions. And the basic thing is that all relationships (and even life) must be navigated with more feelings than intellect - you will NOT succeed if you only apply intellect and try to place insurmountable boundaries for "protection"...because all you are advocating is isolation, and most humans are not happy living like that.

Relationships are not designed to be static and unchanging, and stable - they are most successful when they grow and evolve and adapt to meet the changing needs of the people in them. Learning how to handle THAT is the key to avoiding the negative outcomes that you listed in your other post. To live the way you advocated would be handing a grave loss to anyone who followed that advice and avoided risk, but also then avoided the challenges and rewards that are possible...and are what make relationships (and LIFE) so exciting and worth having!


----------



## oldshirt

LisaDiane said:


> Hmm...You are only trading one negative impact for another, I think.
> And while you might be "mitigating their impacts and lessening their level of destruction" for yourself (or whomever you are advocating to), you are also preventing any and all GOOD impacts and potential wonderful outcomes. You are taking away the risk but then also blocking the possibility of any reward.
> 
> Your post I first quoted wasn't about mitigation, it was a rather heartless list of protections and what you believe are very likely negative consequences. And what you highlighted was almost all about the financial losses that a man incurs because of marriage and "cohabitation". Why make money the only consideration on whether a relationship is worth pursuing and how...? Money should be the LEAST considered aspect of how valuable a relationship with someone is...at least, for me it is.
> 
> It was a decidedly hopeless view of the potential outcomes...You weren't advocating using a seatbelt - you were saying no one should drive at all!
> But then I want to know, how would you characterize the experiences where you tossed caution to the wind, threw away your logic, and went with your heart and loins...? Were they grave mistakes that had NO positive impact on your life...? Or were they some of your best memories and some of the most fun things you could experience that also helped you grow and overcome, and that you would choose to do all over again...? Because THAT is what makes life worth living - THOSE moments. Why warn someone completely against those?
> 
> I still believe you are attempting to apply logic and intellect to something that will simply NOT abide by it, because it's ruled by feelings and emotions. And the basic thing is that all relationships (and even life) must be navigated with more feelings than intellect - you will NOT succeed if you only apply intellect and try to place insurmountable boundaries for "protection"...because all you are advocating is isolation, and most humans are not happy living like that.
> 
> Relationships are not designed to be static and unchanging, and stable - they are most successful when they grow and evolve and adapt to meet the changing needs of the people in them. Learning how to handle THAT is the key to avoiding the negative outcomes that you listed in your other post. To live the way you advocated would be handing a grave loss to anyone who followed that advice and avoided risk, but also then avoided the challenges and rewards that are possible...and are what make relationships (and LIFE) so exciting and worth having!


I don’t see living life to the fullest and being aware of the realities of life and marriages as the least bit mutually exclusive and I certainly did not mean for people to avoid relationships or marriage - but to take some simple steps to mitigate financial ruin in today’s world. 

I was not saying not to drive or not to enjoy the journey. I was saying buckle up and keep your eyes on the road and be aware the other guy may not be as conscientious.


----------



## LisaDiane

oldshirt said:


> I don’t see living life to the fullest and being aware of the realities of life and marriages as the least bit mutually exclusive and I certainly did not mean for people to avoid relationships or marriage - but to take some simple steps to mitigate financial ruin in today’s world.
> 
> I was not saying not to drive or not to enjoy the journey. I was saying buckle up and keep your eyes on the road and be aware the other guy may not be as conscientious.


Well, I'm NOT criticizing you (exactly...Lol!)...I even agree with alot of what you said - especially here.

I just wanted to challenge your perception of the "realities", because they sounded alot harsher when you first wrote them!


----------



## oldshirt

LisaDiane said:


> Well, I'm NOT criticizing you (exactly...Lol!)...I even agree with alot of what you said - especially here.
> 
> I just wanted to challenge your perception of the "realities", because they sounded alot harsher when you first wrote them!


The realities _can _be harsh if we ignore them.

Dr Laura Schlesinger used to address this in her radio show and books from 10-15 years ago.

The world has changed and in many ways the world no longer supports the institution of marriage the way it was in previous generations ( her words, not mine, although I think she is accurate).

In days of yore, families, churches, the marital and divorce laws of the times and society as a whole supported marriage as it was practiced at that time. 

This had both good and bad elements. When women packed up the kids and showed up on friends or family’s doorstep, they were told marriage takes work and sacrifice and that the good of the children, family and society were greater than her own sense of happiness and were sent back.

The problem is when she showed up with black eyes and bloody nose, she was told the same thing. 

If she showed up at the lawyer’s office wanting a divorce, the lawyer told her she’d have to go home and talk to her husband about it to see if the husband would be agreeable to paying him for his services.

If she went to the judge, the judge would also ask if it was ok with her husband if they got divorced and would say he’d have to hear both sides and see if he agreed that it was necessary or not.

If a husband showed up on anyone’s doorstep saying his wife hadn’t spoke to him or touched him in 5 years, he was told that’s the way marriage is and that divorce would be a dishonor and that if he was discreet enough that there were some ladies in town that provided discrete services that would cost less than a divorce.

And if a man’s wife was cheating, he could rightfully sue for divorce but he would still be held accountable for not “managing” his household well enough to keep her from straying and that he would still be expected to support her and the kids (that he wouldn’t see) until she was able to remarry. But of course with the Scarlet Letter on her lapel, the chances of her remarrying any time soon were not great. 

So for better or for worse, society supported that model of marriage. Marriage was like a schoolyard fight where the two combatants were in a ring of people egging them on and if one got knocked down the, eggers picked them up and pushed them back into the fight. so they settled the score by either punching themselves out and calling a truce on their own, or one got basically knocked out by the other.

Society has changed. Society is no longer the ring of eggers-on that will pick you up and push you back into the ring. We no longer tolerate people beating each other until one cries uncle.

You show up at a friend/relative’s house saying you don’t want to be married anymore, they’ll tell you stay as long as you want and that they didn’t like him/her to begin with anyway. Chances are they’ll even try hook you up with someone else.

Show up at an attorney’s office or the courthouse wanting a divorce and they will give you the forms and tell you how to fill it out and where to sign.

If your spouse is cheating on you, people will tell you to kick him/her to the curb and let the next sucker deal with them and no one will have a problem taking their own turn with them next. They may not marry them per se immediately, but they won’t have a problem banging them for awhile. If you’re a woman, guys will line up to be next. If you’re a man, someone will fall for your sob story and take you in. 

And economically, as time goes on, women are being more and more expected to get an education/training, get a job and support themselves. Women making their living by marrying men is no longer assumed or even accepted. 

If they want to be single mothers, that’s fine but get a job and pay for them so I don’t have to. I want to ride the carousel too but I don’t want to have to pay for your kids while you do nuth’n. 

So where I am going with this is families, society, laws and economics supported our grandparent’s marriage decades ago. 

That no longer happens now. 

Families, Society, laws and economics support our children’s divorce today. 

There for our children are going to need to learn to prepare for and navigate around divorce more than our elders because it is going to be more of societal institution for them.

The quickest way to defeat is to fight today’s war with the last war’s tactics and strategy.


----------



## oldshirt

TLDR version: 

40 years ago marriage was supported by people’s families, society, churches, society as a whole and even the laws and courts.

Today, divorce is supported by those entities. 

(Even if they say they don’t like divorce or don’t believe in it)


----------



## Enigma32

oldshirt said:


> TLDR version:
> 
> 40 years ago marriage was supported by people’s families, society, churches, society as a whole and even the laws and courts.
> 
> Today, divorce is supported by those entities.
> 
> (Even if they say they don’t like divorce or don’t believe in it)


This has been my experience. People are really quick to advise others to get a divorce. It seems to be the default answer to most problems.


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## oldshirt

Enigma32 said:


> This has been my experience. People are really quick to advise others to get a divorce. It seems to be the default answer to most problems.


I think it goes deeper than that. 

Going back to the schoolyard circle fight, I think people are tired of picking people up and pushing them back into the fight to get punched again. We’ve lost our taste for a pointless fight. 

If someone is a jerk or a bad spouse, they don’t deserve to have a spouse so leave their arse already.

If someone is a nitwit that got married because they wanted a dance and party where everyone doted on them and told them how pretty they were but they didn’t actually want to BE married - well they probably shouldn’t be there either. 

In the days of yore, they were pushed back in the ring. But today? Why should I bother? Not my circus, not my monkey. 

The knowledge and statistics are out there. 50% of marriages fail. People that marry at young age fail at a higher rate. Unplanned pregnancies divorce at a higher rate. People that are uneducated and nominally employed divorce at a higher rate.

Divorce is expensive and costly. 

Contraception is safe, reliable and accessible, so don’t have kids before your ready or want to. 

Divorce was a relatively new and unknown phenomenon to the common man (the upper classes that could afford it have always had divorce) to our grandparents 50 years ago. 

But in today’s world, people know it’s out there, know it’s accessable and obtainable by anyone - - so they are naive, irresponsible and dumb if they think it can’t happen to them.


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## happyhusband0005

I think people should be taught to understand how basic personality conflicts can lead to serious problems in marriage. If one person has personality that is very particular and inflexible they need a partner who is very flexible and easy going. If one person has a personality that requires a lot of act performed for them they need a partner who finds joy in giving. If you have two people with the same inflexibility they are naturally going to have long term problems, just like if you have two takers instead of a taker and giver you have problems. When dating people focus on their commonalities as strengths. Their shared hobbies having similar life goals etc. That stuff is great and people can learn to enjoy new hobbies as their interests change, basic personality traits are unlikely to change. So a couple who gets a long great when dating would be wise to pay attention to if their personalities are complimentary to one another. Two very similar personalities are unlikely to compliment each other which can be a bad thing for long term marriage success. 

I think this would be good info for young men and women to understand. It is kind of common sense but given people usually start out focused on shared interest and goals etc. They end up deep in a relationship before they start paying attention to the personality stuff.


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## Diana7

Enigma32 said:


> You've been married for 27 years and that's awesome! Really. Problem is, that is the exception, not the rule. All you have to do is read these forums for a bit and see the various miniscule justifications for divorce people have.


I am fortunate enough to know loads and loads of couples in long term marriages of over 40 years. There are just as many good long marriages as there are those who end them for little reason.


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## Cletus

Diana7 said:


> I am fortunate enough to know loads and loads of couples in long term marriages of over 40 years. There are just as many good long marriages as there are those who end them for little reason.


Stats suggest that 40 percent of first time marriages fail. Which means 50% more succeed than crash and burn.


----------



## hamadryad

Cletus said:


> Stats suggest that 40 percent of first time marriages fail. Which means 50% more succeed than crash and burn.


These stats are tremendously misleading....They don't take into account the amount of marriages that don't end in a divorce, but are trudging on in a miserable way, with neither party willing to make a run for it....Maybe they are doing it for the kids, the finances, the fact that they have another m/w on the side...

Point is, just because people are married and haven't divorced, doesn't immediately count as "success"....02


----------



## Cletus

hamadryad said:


> Point is, just because people are married and haven't divorced, doesn't immediately count as "success"....02


Oh, the annual red pill bumper crop is coming in a little early this year. The great thing about marriage is you don't have to participate if you don't want to. But I'll never understand the desire to poison the well for everyone else.

I just celebrated my 35th anniversary - you'll probably need to find another tree to bark up. My son has only been married three years, so the jury is still out, but they seem primed for success.

Sometimes, if you're not happy in your marriage, the problem is with one's expectations as much as it is with the institution itself.


----------



## hamadryad

Cletus said:


> Oh, the annual red pill bumper crop is coming in a little early this year. The great thing about marriage is you don't have to participate if you don't want to. But I'll never understand the desire to poison the well for everyone else.
> 
> I just celebrated my 35th anniversary - you'll probably need to find another tree to bark up. My son has only been married three years, so the jury is still out, but they seem primed for success.
> 
> Sometimes, if you're not happy in your marriage, the problem is with one's expectations as much as it is with the institution itself.


I don't even know what "red pill" is.... 😂

But if you think that ALL married people would consider themselves happy and call themselves a "success" , then you are simply delusional....If you are one that fits in the success category then great for you,...but many are not, and many people you even think are happy are FAR from it...Some of the couples I have known that I would have thought never would divorce are now divorced... It happens, period....

But without a way to measure the non divorced as happy or not happy, or staying only for the kids, sheer apathy, or living lies because they can't afford to divorce, creates an enormous unaccounted for margin of error..You are just employing confirmation bias, rather than facts or common sense...I'm pointing out the obvious error in the stats....Nothing more and nothing less..


----------



## Cletus

hamadryad said:


> But without a way to measure the non divorced as happy or not happy, or staying only for the kids, sheer apathy, or living lies because they can't afford to divorce, creates an enormous unaccounted for margin of error..You are just employing confirmation bias, rather than facts or common sense...I'm pointing out the obvious error in the stats....Nothing more and nothing less..


The problem is, your guess and $2.50 will get you a cup of coffee. I do not know what the satisfaction rate is for marriages. There is only one publicly traded divorce security, and that is the official divorce rate. The number of unhappy marriages that never end in divorce is certainly non zero. What it is beyond that, well, do you take cream or sugar?

What else is not measured is the number of single people living alone unable to find a spouse who are equally unhappy. Let's not pretend that the equation has only one term.

I'll end with this. 95% of surveyed married adults report the state of their marriage as doing fairly well to very well, according to Pew.

"Married adults are more satisfied in general with their relationship than are those who are living with a partner. And they express higher levels of satisfaction with several specific aspects of their relationship. In addition, those who are married are more likely than those who are cohabiting to say they have a great deal of trust in their spouse or partner to be faithful to them, act in their best interest, always tell them the truth and handle money responsibly."









How married and cohabiting adults see their relationships


Married adults are more satisfied in general with their relationship than are those who are living with a partner. And they express higher levels of




www.pewsocialtrends.org




.


----------



## RClawson

Diana7 said:


> Thats interesting because some of the happiest marriages I know were ones where they were very yong, 19 in some cases. Still going strong 40 and more years later. Two of my best friends at the time married at age 19, still going strong 45 years later.


I am still married myself (35 Years). I also have a few friends that married right out of high shcool that are going strong. They are the exception. A very small exception.


----------



## EleGirl

Rus47 said:


> You misunderstand. I married a long time ago and our marriage has been and remains wonderful, NO regrets, only good NO bad. Times have changed, conditions for a young person are totally different from when my wife and I started dating and married. Today, as witness the pages and pages of unhappy people asking people here how to escape the hell they are in, it seems marriage isn't a very good option for a young man. I can't tell him there is any way he could find someone to spend a blissful married lifetime with.


How old is this young relative of yours? What's his education level?

If you are talking about the pages and pages of posts by people in bad marriages here on TAM, keep in mind that this is a self-selected group. Very few people in a happy marriage would bother to be on a site like this.

The highest divorce rates are for those with lower income who marry early (women under 25 and men under 30).

People who marry after 25 have about a 25% chance of ending up divorced. Statistically, it's best for women to wait until they are at least 25 to marry. And for men, it's statistically best for them to not get married before they turn 30.

Today's young people not as different from older generations as they, and apparently you, seem to think they are. I have a few dozen nieces and nephews. Most of them are married. Most married in their early 20's. They want the same thing that we all wanted, a good, strong relationship, marriage, children, and a good job to support their family.


----------



## Diana7

oldshirt said:


> I don’t see living life to the fullest and being aware of the realities of life and marriages as the least bit mutually exclusive and I certainly did not mean for people to avoid relationships or marriage - but to take some simple steps to mitigate financial ruin in today’s world.
> 
> I was not saying not to drive or not to enjoy the journey. I was saying buckle up and keep your eyes on the road and be aware the other guy may not be as conscientious.


I could never go into a marriage thinking of it ending.


----------



## hamadryad

Interesting that a huge spike has occurred in the divorce rate with the pandemic....You would think that this event would draw and unify happy/satisfied married couples together, and perhaps even result in more sex/intimacy.....Well....I guess not....These certainly make up some of the people that weren't in the regular divorce rate, but all it took was an inconvenience to their lives(and perhaps the thought that they can't escape from their partner on a daily basis) to send them packing....It's entirely possible/probable, that if not for the pandemic, they would just continue with their married, yet unsatisfied and unfulfilled lives..


----------



## Laurentium

hamadryad said:


> Interesting that a huge spike has occurred in the divorce rate with the pandemic....You would think that this event would draw and unify happy/satisfied married couples together, and perhaps even result in more sex/intimacy


Yes, it is interesting (and good for my business!) It has had a bad effect on some couples -- others have been brought closer together by it as you say. And many in my area have been very stressed by having their children with them 24/7. 

In a successful couple, each needs to have a sense of themselves as in individual separate person, as well as half of a couple and perhaps a member of a bigger family. Some have struggled to maintain their sense of self during lockdown. For many couples, the daily trip to work helps them to maintain stability.


----------



## Diana7

hamadryad said:


> Interesting that a huge spike has occurred in the divorce rate with the pandemic....You would think that this event would draw and unify happy/satisfied married couples together, and perhaps even result in more sex/intimacy.....Well....I guess not....These certainly make up some of the people that weren't in the regular divorce rate, but all it took was an inconvenience to their lives(and perhaps the thought that they can't escape from their partner on a daily basis) to send them packing....It's entirely possible/probable, that if not for the pandemic, they would just continue with their married, yet unsatisfied and unfulfilled lives..


I guess if things werent that good anyway its made thing worse, but for many families its been a positive thing for them.


----------



## oldshirt

Diana7 said:


> I could never go into a marriage thinking of it ending.


People need to at least recognize the possibility and take a few simple precautions.


----------



## RebuildingMe

At his age, the best advice you can give him, if he’s willing to listen, it get him off the ‘marriage market’ and ALWAYS wear a condom.


----------



## Diana7

oldshirt said:


> People need to at least recognize the possibility and take a few simple precautions.


Everyone knows it can happen, but I dont go into marriage thinking it will. If it does then I deal with it.


----------



## oldshirt

Diana7 said:


> Everyone knows it can happen, but I dont go into marriage thinking it will. If it does then I deal with it.


I don’t get into the car thinking I will get in a crash. But I wear my seat belt, follow the posted speed limits and traffic signs and keep my eyes on the road with the awareness that something could happen. 

This generation of kids coming into adulthood now have a much higher likelihood of divorce than our generation. They need to be aware of that and conduct themselves as such. 

That is all I am saying.


----------



## pastasauce79

Relationships dynamics change all the time. They change within a relationship.

My relationship with my husband is not the same as it was 19 years ago. 

Are young people so dumb to understand this? 

I don't know you, but I'm surrounded by married friends. The majority of us have been married for at least ten years. Do you think we are telling our children not to get married? 

Our children see us in a relationship. They learn from us, they look for love. And yes, they might find love in the wrong places just like I did, and many do, dating before getting married or getting serious with someone. 

Am I going to tell my kid to not date or fall in love or marry because I'M afraid they are going to break up or divorce? No way! 

After all, I'm here to give my kids the tools so they can leave the nest and start their own nest. If they fail, I'll be there to support them, but it's their life, not mine. 

I'm glad I didn't listen to people who told me my husband and I weren't going to make it because we married 9 months after meeting each other. If I remember correctly, we were too young, too stupid, too broke to make it. Oh, I was a foreigner as well, his friends told my husband I was only after a green card! 

Things have changed. My generation is different from my parent's generation. I don't have a negative outlook for my kids' future and their relationships, and I definitely don't bad mouth men or women, I have a boy and a girl. 

I would be concerned if my son started dumping women just because they want to get married. I would think my son is the one with a problem. And I would definitely tell my daughter to steer away from men with commitment issues. 

Let the kids live his life and make decisions on his own.


----------



## LisaDiane

Diana7 said:


> I could never go into a marriage thinking of it ending.


But this certainly doesn't guarantee a successful marriage.


----------



## Diana7

RClawson said:


> I am still married myself (35 Years). I also have a few friends that married right out of high shcool that are going strong. They are the exception. A very small exception.


I know loads of couples who met in their teens or early 20's who are still happily married after 40 and more years. I love to see that.


----------



## Diana7

LisaDiane said:


> But this certainly doesn't guarantee a successful marriage.


I still would go in with hope and not thinking of what may happen in a divorce. Thats why I would never ever get a prenup, to me that would going into a marriage with a completely wrong attitude. Neither of us believes in divorce anyway, except for the most serious things.


----------



## Diana7

pastasauce79 said:


> Relationships dynamics change all the time. They change within a relationship.
> 
> My relationship with my husband is not the same as it was 19 years ago.
> 
> Are young people so dumb to understand this?
> 
> I don't know you, but I'm surrounded by married friends. The majority of us have been married for at least ten years. Do you think we are telling our children not to get married?
> 
> Our children see us in a relationship. They learn from us, they look for love. And yes, they might find love in the wrong places just like I did, and many do, dating before getting married or getting serious with someone.
> 
> Am I going to tell my kid to not date or fall in love or marry because I'M afraid they are going to break up or divorce? No way!
> 
> After all, I'm here to give my kids the tools so they can leave the nest and start their own nest. If they fail, I'll be there to support them, but it's their life, not mine.
> 
> I'm glad I didn't listen to people who told me my husband and I weren't going to make it because we married 9 months after meeting each other. If I remember correctly, we were too young, too stupid, too broke to make it. Oh, I was a foreigner as well, his friends told my husband I was only after a green card!
> 
> Things have changed. My generation is different from my parent's generation. I don't have a negative outlook for my kids' future and their relationships, and I definitely don't bad mouth men or women, I have a boy and a girl.
> 
> I would be concerned if my son started dumping women just because they want to get married. I would think my son is the one with a problem. And I would definitely tell my daughter to steer away from men with commitment issues.
> 
> Let the kids live his life and make decisions on his own.


👌 👆😊Well bought up children will act well and make good decisions.


----------



## 347055

EleGirl said:


> How old is this young relative of yours? What's his education level?
> 
> If you are talking about the pages and pages of posts by people in bad marriages here on TAM, keep in mind that this is a self-selected group. *Very few people in a happy marriage would bother to be on a site like this.*


He is nearing 21, a senior at university. I guess saying he "dumped" the younger women who wanted marriage was too strong a term. He let them know as soon as they brought up the subject that he didn't want them wasting their time dating him hoping to get an "MRS" degree because he had a career to begin.

And, I originally visited TAM to obtain information about TRT. Then got interested reading all of the sad stories elsewhere on the site. Being very happily married for a long time, I probably shouldn't have joined in. And, from here on will just watch.


----------



## EleGirl

Rus47 said:


> He is nearing 21, a senior at university. I guess saying he "dumped" the younger women who wanted marriage was too strong a term. He let them know as soon as they brought up the subject that he didn't want them wasting their time dating him hoping to get an "MRS" degree because he had a career to begin.
> 
> And, I originally visited TAM to obtain information about TRT. Then got interested reading all of the sad stories elsewhere on the site. Being very happily married for a long time, I probably shouldn't have joined in. And, from here on will just watch.


I think you misunderstood what I said. I was not saying, or implying, that you or anyone in a good marriage should not post here on TAM. Our members can always benefit from the input/advice from someone who is happily married. So please, post all you want! 

Since he's only 21, I think it's a good thing that he is not pursuing relationships right now that would lead to marriage. He is wise to put his efforts right now into building his career. Smart young man!


----------



## oldshirt

pastasauce79 said:


> Relationships dynamics change all the time. They change within a relationship.
> 
> My relationship with my husband is not the same as it was 19 years ago.
> 
> Are young people so dumb to understand this?
> 
> I don't know you, but I'm surrounded by married friends. The majority of us have been married for at least ten years. Do you think we are telling our children not to get married?
> 
> Our children see us in a relationship. They learn from us, they look for love. And yes, they might find love in the wrong places just like I did, and many do, dating before getting married or getting serious with someone.
> 
> Am I going to tell my kid to not date or fall in love or marry because I'M afraid they are going to break up or divorce? No way!
> 
> After all, I'm here to give my kids the tools so they can leave the nest and start their own nest. If they fail, I'll be there to support them, but it's their life, not mine.
> 
> I'm glad I didn't listen to people who told me my husband and I weren't going to make it because we married 9 months after meeting each other. If I remember correctly, we were too young, too stupid, too broke to make it. Oh, I was a foreigner as well, his friends told my husband I was only after a green card!
> 
> Things have changed. My generation is different from my parent's generation. I don't have a negative outlook for my kids' future and their relationships, and I definitely don't bad mouth men or women, I have a boy and a girl.
> 
> I would be concerned if my son started dumping women just because they want to get married. I would think my son is the one with a problem. And I would definitely tell my daughter to steer away from men with commitment issues.
> 
> Let the kids live his life and make decisions on his own.


I don’t think most people are saying NOT to marry or have relationships etc. 

I think many people are basically saying to make decisions with your head and protect yourself by being mindful that divorce is a fact of life in today’s and tomorrow’s world. 

Our kids are going to have a different world than what we did so our modeling, while beneficial, can only go so far no matter how good our marriages may have been.


----------



## oldshirt

Rus47 said:


> He is nearing 21, a senior at university. I guess saying he "dumped" the younger women who wanted marriage was too strong a term. He let them know as soon as they brought up the subject that he didn't want them wasting their time dating him hoping to get an "MRS" degree because he had a career to begin.


I am glad you clarified that because I was going to ask you if he truly “dumped” them or whether he told them he wasn’t looking for a heavy commitment at this time and then THEY basically faded like a fart in the wind.


----------



## Totally T

oldshirt said:


> The realities _can _be harsh if we ignore them.
> 
> Dr Laura Schlesinger used to address this in her radio show and books from 10-15 years ago.
> 
> The world has changed and in many ways the world no longer supports the institution of marriage the way it was in previous generations ( her words, not mine, although I think she is accurate).
> 
> In days of yore, families, churches, the marital and divorce laws of the times and society as a whole supported marriage as it was practiced at that time.
> 
> This had both good and bad elements. When women packed up the kids and showed up on friends or family’s doorstep, they were told marriage takes work and sacrifice and that the good of the children, family and society were greater than her own sense of happiness and were sent back.
> 
> The problem is when she showed up with black eyes and bloody nose, she was told the same thing.
> 
> If she showed up at the lawyer’s office wanting a divorce, the lawyer told her she’d have to go home and talk to her husband about it to see if the husband would be agreeable to paying him for his services.
> 
> If she went to the judge, the judge would also ask if it was ok with her husband if they got divorced and would say he’d have to hear both sides and see if he agreed that it was necessary or not.
> 
> If a husband showed up on anyone’s doorstep saying his wife hadn’t spoke to him or touched him in 5 years, he was told that’s the way marriage is and that divorce would be a dishonor and that if he was discreet enough that there were some ladies in town that provided discrete services that would cost less than a divorce.
> 
> And if a man’s wife was cheating, he could rightfully sue for divorce but he would still be held accountable for not “managing” his household well enough to keep her from straying and that he would still be expected to support her and the kids (that he wouldn’t see) until she was able to remarry. But of course with the Scarlet Letter on her lapel, the chances of her remarrying any time soon were not great.
> 
> So for better or for worse, society supported that model of marriage. Marriage was like a schoolyard fight where the two combatants were in a ring of people egging them on and if one got knocked down the, eggers picked them up and pushed them back into the fight. so they settled the score by either punching themselves out and calling a truce on their own, or one got basically knocked out by the other.
> 
> Society has changed. Society is no longer the ring of eggers-on that will pick you up and push you back into the ring. We no longer tolerate people beating each other until one cries uncle.
> 
> You show up at a friend/relative’s house saying you don’t want to be married anymore, they’ll tell you stay as long as you want and that they didn’t like him/her to begin with anyway. Chances are they’ll even try hook you up with someone else.
> 
> Show up at an attorney’s office or the courthouse wanting a divorce and they will give you the forms and tell you how to fill it out and where to sign.
> 
> If your spouse is cheating on you, people will tell you to kick him/her to the curb and let the next sucker deal with them and no one will have a problem taking their own turn with them next. They may not marry them per se immediately, but they won’t have a problem banging them for awhile. If you’re a woman, guys will line up to be next. If you’re a man, someone will fall for your sob story and take you in.
> 
> And economically, as time goes on, women are being more and more expected to get an education/training, get a job and support themselves. Women making their living by marrying men is no longer assumed or even accepted.
> 
> If they want to be single mothers, that’s fine but get a job and pay for them so I don’t have to. I want to ride the carousel too but I don’t want to have to pay for your kids while you do nuth’n.
> 
> So where I am going with this is families, society, laws and economics supported our grandparent’s marriage decades ago.
> 
> That no longer happens now.
> 
> Families, Society, laws and economics support our children’s divorce today.
> 
> There for our children are going to need to learn to prepare for and navigate around divorce more than our elders because it is going to be more of societal institution for them.
> 
> The quickest way to defeat is to fight today’s war with the last war’s tactics and strategy.


Of course not too long ago the family network had its ways to force men to behave better.


----------



## Totally T

Diana7 said:


> I could never go into a marriage thinking of it ending.


This is the right attitude. A prenuptial and separate accounts suggest advance preparation.


----------



## pastasauce79

Rus47 said:


> He is nearing 21, a senior at university. I guess saying he "dumped" the younger women who wanted marriage was too strong a term. He let them know as soon as they brought up the subject that he didn't want them wasting their time dating him hoping to get an "MRS" degree because he had a career to begin.


Well, at 21 he is too young to be thinking about marriage. And the girls were younger? And thinking about marriage? Wow!!

I got married at 23 but I tell my kids I'd like for them to wait a little longer before getting married or live with someone. I tell them they have to travel, live in other places, meet people, go party, enjoy life because once you marry it's all about responsibilities. And if they have kids, everything is about the kids and no fun or time for themselves. 

I hope they listen to my advice.


----------



## LisaDiane

Rus47 said:


> And, I originally visited TAM to obtain information about TRT. Then got interested reading all of the sad stories elsewhere on the site. *Being very happily married for a long time, I probably shouldn't have joined in.* *And, from here on will just watch.*


I think you are taking what she said WAY too personally...if you've been reading posts on this site, you should know that she was making an observation to help add to your understanding of this discussion, and not in any way attacking you. ESPECIALLY @EleGirl.


----------



## Livvie

The Mighty Fred said:


> This is the right attitude. A prenuptial and separate accounts suggest advance preparation.


So you're a head in the sand _unprepared_ kind of guy, one who does no advance preparation in case of a negative event?

A lot of things happen that we don't want to happen but if we are smart we realize it COULD happen and we prepare for it.

Got health insurance? Vehicle insurance? Homeowners insurance? Life insurance? Disability insurance?


----------



## GC1234

Rus47 said:


> I have a young relative who has dated a lot of women. Unfortunately, he is old enough that several have wanted to get married, thankfully when they brought up the subject he ended the relationship. Frankly, despite having been happily married for more than 5 decades, in these times and for his generation see no benefit to marry. I have many friends and relatives who have lived with a woman for decades, so-called common law. Just the same as being married without all the drama and trauma of filing for divorce if things go south. And, have had several friends where the relationship soured as soon as they marched down the aisle. Seems once a man is locked into a marriage, the woman begins to tighten the screws in every respect.


Honestly, if your relative can be smart enough to figure out he or she isn't the marrying kind, let them be. Better to be yourself than to be in a marriage you really don't want to be in. Some people just don't want to be married, and that should be ok.


----------



## oldshirt

The Mighty Fred said:


> This is the right attitude. A prenuptial and separate accounts suggest advance preparation.


It *is *advance preparation. 

Being prepared and cognizant of the threat typically makes that threat LESS likely to occur, not more. 

Both my wife and I could walk away in the amount of time it would take to put down deposits and pack the truck and neither would be harmed or financially crippled. 

Neither of us are hostages to our own circumstance. We each have free will and agency as well as ability. 

That keeps us both on our toes and on good behavior. Neither feels they have the other over a barrel and thus can mistreat the other knowing their ability to do anything about it is limited.


----------



## oldshirt

The Mighty Fred said:


> Of course not too long ago the family network had its ways to force men to behave better.


Yes. 

But in today’s world, brothers and fathers discouraging someone’s bad behavior and motivating them to be better will land them in jail and being sued. 

In days gone by, family members would correct the bad behavior and provide motivation to do better. 

But today it’s easier and cheaper and less risk to support them leaving.

Again, in previous generations society supported people staying together (even if it meant some beat-downs) and today’s society supports divorce.

Today staying in the face of abuse or adultery etc is the new shame.


----------



## oldshirt

oldshirt said:


> Yes.
> 
> But in today’s world, brothers and fathers discouraging someone’s bad behavior and motivating them to be better will land them in jail and being sued.
> 
> In days gone by, family members would correct the bad behavior and provide motivation to do better.
> 
> But today it’s easier and cheaper and less risk to support them leaving.
> 
> Again, in previous generations society supported people staying together (even if it meant some beat-downs) and today’s society supports divorce.
> 
> Today staying in the face of abuse or adultery etc is the new shame.


Let me give a personal, real life example; 30+ years ago, my 20something cousin showed up on my Aunt and Uncle’s doorstep in the middle of the night with a black eye, a bloody nose with a baby wrapped in a bloody towel. 

My aunt and uncle called him over to their house and sat them down to supposedly help mediate them and get them to “work out” their issues. They told him not to get drunk and beat her and they told her not to be nagging and be more compliant and cooperative.

He apologized and promised he wouldn’t do it again and they sent her back to the low life POS. 

After the umpteeth time of her having cuts and bruises they finally figured out his promises and assurances didn’t have a lot value and begrudgingly gave their blessing for her to leave him. 

I am not privy to what “other” forms of motivation took place behind closed doors but let’s say they were not successful in getting him to become a good guy. 

Today I have a 19 year old daughter. If someday she shows up with bruises, I am not going to commit a premeditated crime and risk my own freedom and financial future in today’s legal climate. 

I will call the police, take pictures and document and encourage and support her divorcing the A-hole and never having contact with him again. 

I will also make clear that the next beating will be on her and that any time she goes back to him, she will need to expect further abuse.

I will also tell my son that if some little cutie cheats on him or ruins his credit score with bad debt, I will buy him a drinkand listen intently while he sheds tears in his beer. 

But I will also make clear that if he takes her back, her next affair or his future bankruptcy is also on him. 

There are simply too many other options and opportunities in today’s world justify remaining with someone who mistreats you. 

Our grandparents may have gone out of their way to keep people together when they were acting badly. 

I don’t.


----------



## Openminded

Rus47 said:


> I originally visited TAM to obtain information about TRT. Then got interested reading all of the sad stories elsewhere on the site. Being very happily married for a long time, I probably shouldn't have joined in. And, from here on will just watch.


Of course, you should have joined in. Absolutely. Not every marriage here has serious problems and it helps to have all perspectives. Your input is valuable too. I joined specifically to support women who were ending very long marriages because that’s where I was at that time. Years later, I’ve stayed for many other reasons.

None of the young adults in my family have the slightest interest in marriage before 30 and I totally support that. And if none of them choose to get married, I would totally support that as well. It’s their lives after all.


----------



## hamadryad

Best advice is don't let the little head do the thinking for the big one... 😂

But one thing there is to consider moving forward, with regard to marriages and finance, and resulting divorce settlements...Typically the majority of men take it on the chin here...I could tell you all of the hideously lopsided divorce/alimony/asset judgements and many of you wouldn't believe it...It's really almost criminal...I even know a guy that still paying spousal support despite being divorced for almost 3 decades...All of this despite the fact that these guys were super generous to their wives during the marriage...In fact, the sad irony is that the more generous they were, the harder they got hit!!

Conversely, I have really not heard the same for women getting "taken to the cleaners" in fact that saying of and itself, seems to be specifically the rallying cry for women..I have never heard a guy say he was going to "take her to the cleaners"...never happened...

So there is no secret that women now are making more money than they ever have...Many entering marriages where they are making clearly more than their husbands, and likely will for the duration of the marriage.....Yet, with that, I have not been hearing of many cases of guys getting cushy support judgements...It may be happening, but I am not hearing of it...Despite these advances, I still get the feeling women expect guys to be earners and that while many guys(at least a lot in my generation anyway) are of the mindset that what they earn, is primarily for the family, a lot of women feel like what they earn is "hers" and that the husband is still the one that should do a lot of the heavy lifting regarding paying for stuff and contributing...I do know a few guys in this scenario, and they tell me that their wives are very tight with the money, despite making a lot....and that any effort to get any resorts to groveling and begging...Women typically lose respect for guys that take money from them, even though many guys have been providing for women for eons...many gladly doing so....

This will certainly be an interesting dynamic moving forward..


----------



## Diana7

Rus47 said:


> He is nearing 21, a senior at university. I guess saying he "dumped" the younger women who wanted marriage was too strong a term. He let them know as soon as they brought up the subject that he didn't want them wasting their time dating him hoping to get an "MRS" degree because he had a career to begin.
> 
> And, I originally visited TAM to obtain information about TRT. Then got interested reading all of the sad stories elsewhere on the site. Being very happily married for a long time, I probably shouldn't have joined in. And, from here on will just watch.


He is very young yet and 21 year old males are very rarely anything like mature enough to think of marriage. Having said that some of the best marriages I know are ones where they married very young.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

LisaDiane said:


> I just meant some of the painful parts of marriage also exist in any long term relationship. I've seen plenty of partners tighten the screws in any committed relationship.
> 
> Does that answer your question? I can explain what I mean in even more detail, if you'd like...


You nailed it, thanks!!!


----------



## Luckylucky

I am saddened to read the advice to find a woman with similar education or more earning power. 

Find a woman with similar morals and values and forget finances. 

Because if you believe in the same things, none of that matters. 

So if you’re both honest, reliable and dislike cheating, lying, drama and manipulation, you’ll have a greater chance at success. 

And if you both like drugs, alcohol, adultery, stealing etc, you’ll be a great team too! 😁

That’s the advice I’d give to a young person about marriage, only if they asked me.


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## Livvie

Luckylucky said:


> I am saddened to read the advice to find a woman with similar education or more earning power.
> 
> Find a woman with similar morals and values and forget finances.
> 
> Because if you believe in the same things, none of that matters.
> 
> So if you’re both honest, reliable and dislike cheating, lying, drama and manipulation, you’ll have a greater chance at success.
> 
> And if you both like drugs, alcohol, adultery, stealing etc, you’ll be a great team too! 😁
> 
> That’s the advice I’d give to a young person about marriage, only if they asked me.


Finances can and do matter, if you are someone who is going to be hateful about having to pay spousal support and or dividing assets in the event of a divorce if you were married to a low earner spouse and you were the high/only earner.

Men complain about this all of the time. A way to avoid it is to choose someone who earns similar to you.

Sometimes divorce happens when you least expect it. Nice people are not immune to it. Sometimes people change for the worse, in ways you never expected, and divorce happens.


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## Luckylucky

This is true.


----------



## Diana7

SuaveTigris said:


> For a young man of today there is ZERO reason to get married. It only leads to a state of sexlessness and the everpresent risk of significant financial stress.
> Marriage is also a way for you to become conditioned to accept kids as well. Before you know it, you are in the category of once a month (if lucky), children in your bed and envy towards your single friends. Of course, this is not the fate of everybody, but it is a high risk. Would you take a bus drive it is was 40% chance of a crash? Of course not.
> 
> I always tell the young men I counsel (in gym, at work and so on and so on) that they should stay single as long as they can and not even moving in with a woman, because that also heightens the risk of her getting knocked up. Of course if they WANT all that, this is fine, but if not, stay single and live by your self. You can have kids and all that stuff even in your 40's and can find a younger girl still.
> 
> Again, there are guys who want this, but if you give in to pressure from the woman to get married or move in together, you are already about to lose, IMHO.


Thankfully most men dont see this the same way as you.


----------



## Diana7

SuaveTigris said:


> I don't think you are in possession of any unbiased statisitcs here, but in any case... WHat works for soem, works for some.
> 
> To each his own.


Most people do get married, and many get married for a second time if they are divorced or widowed. So the desire for marriage is still very strong.


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## Sbrown

When my 10yo comes of age I will do my best to discourage marriage. I've been married to his mother for going on 12 years and she's my best friend, but if things go south I will be financially destroyed. I will get to see my son 4 days a month and live on bean's and Rice. I wouldn't recommend allowing ANYONE to have that much control over you.


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## Diana7

SuaveTigris said:


> Yes, but how many men truly would choose marriage if it wasn't for the pressure from others? (his woman, family and so on and so on).
> Still, there are people who will not desire this and even if a minority, will be enough for one person.
> I am fond of the 1% rule in a sense that 1% is more than enough with anything. Peer pressure and norms are most often societal strains that reign one in.
> 
> As long as you do not harm others, you should be free to do what you want.
> It all comes down to "To each his own".
> While I would NEVER EVER take up arms for a government, those who want to are free to do. Unfortunately, I was FORCED to do so in my country or face prison. At the same time, this only applies to men. Societal norms have accepted this. WHY? All conflicts are banker wars or actions desired by a government to expand or defend their interests.
> 
> Why talk about war here? Just another example of something nobody should be forced to enter. We are born with a free will and society works overtime to strip us of it from we are born until we leave earth.


Loads. I dont know a single man who married due to pressure. Yes there may be a small minority of both men and women who dont want to marry, but generally marriage is good for men, hense they are healthier and live longer than single men. Thats why so many men after divorce or being widowed jump quickly into a new marriage. No one forces them, they want to.


----------



## Diana7

SuaveTigris said:


> We have different expriences and perceptions here of course. In principle, I see no difference between moving in together and getting married and the court system seems less and less to differentiate also. Even prenuptial clauses ahve been successfully challenged at various courts.
> So marriage of today has often been reduced to a ceremonial performance and a label, while the essence is no different from living together.
> 
> Living togeter, OR NOT is the main difference. I think the statement if marriage being the healthiest is a very broad generalization. Yes, I have heard so, but if you live Vegan and exercise regularly, you will tend to live longer than a married man. Of course, you can be married and do both, but this is more challenging due to not having enough time to yourself.
> 
> Due to the large breakup rates, I can see a continued trend of people preferring to live alone, especially men. If you desire children it is a differnet story of course.


In the UK marriage is still treated differently. Most people who live together do end up getting married after a while, for many its far more of a committment and more special that just living together. 
I dont think that many actually choose to be alone, life's circumstances may have ended up that way, but most still want to be with someone and will usually date again after a relationship or marriage break up. I cant actually think of anyone I know who wants to be alone even if they are right now.


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## happyhusband0005

Sbrown said:


> When my 10yo comes of age I will do my best to discourage marriage. I've been married to his mother for going on 12 years and she's my best friend, but if things go south I will be financially destroyed. I will get to see my son 4 days a month and live on bean's and Rice. I wouldn't recommend allowing ANYONE to have that much control over you.


I find this really interesting. You will discourage your son from getting married out of the fear of something that hasn't even happened to you. I kind of fear that your attitude may be creating a self fulfilling prophecy. I think the better advice to boys is to chose wisely who they marry, date for years and live together for at least a year before getting engaged and never get lazy in your relationship. I also think it is good advice given the unfair treatment of men in divorce, that guys look for women who have their own career ambitions. I can't say for certain as I am married and have been for going on 20 years but I don't think I would be anywhere as close to as happy in my life if I were single.


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## Sbrown

happyhusband0005 said:


> I find this really interesting. You will discourage your son from getting married out of the fear of something that hasn't even happened to you. I kind of fear that your attitude may be creating a self fulfilling prophecy. I think the better advice to boys is to chose wisely who they marry, date for years and live together for at least a year before getting engaged and never get lazy in your relationship. I also think it is good advice given the unfair treatment of men in divorce, that guys look for women who have their own career ambitions. I can't say for certain as I am married and have been for going on 20 years but I don't think I would be anywhere as close to as happy in my life if I were single.


Lol please explain how I am creating a self fulfilling prophecy? By realizing, should my wife decide to leave that she can and WILL take me for everything I have, including our son? Or by warning my son of the risk of being married? I would be an unfit parent to leave out the fact that legal marriage can end badly for him once kids are involved. 

The ONLY reason it didn't happen to me in my last divorce is because we had no kids. Oddly enough she had a career, we dated for years and even lived together almost a year..... she decided she didn't want to be married anymore. She tried to take my 401k until I claimed half the equity in the house. Oddly enough her friends convinced her to go after everything she could. But alas, no kids, no leverage. 

Thankfully your advice is worth almost as much as I paid for it.


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## happyhusband0005

Sbrown said:


> Lol please explain how I am creating a self fulfilling prophecy? By realizing, should my wife decide to leave that she can and WILL take me for everything I have, including our son? Or by warning my son of the risk of being married? I would be an unfit parent to leave out the fact that legal marriage can end badly for him once kids are involved.
> 
> The ONLY reason it didn't happen to me in my last divorce is because we had no kids. Oddly enough she had a career, we dated for years and even lived together almost a year..... she decided she didn't want to be married anymore. She tried to take my 401k until I claimed half the equity in the house. Oddly enough her friends convinced her to go after everything she could. But alas, no kids, no leverage.
> 
> Thankfully your advice is worth almost as much as I paid for it.


Ahh so you've been divorced once already. Makes sense. The way you worded it was that you would discourage your son from ever getting married not that you would warn him of the risk. 2 different things. I think after all the horror stories I have read about guys getting divorced a warning of the risks and giving an understanding of the statistics is sensible. Both of my kids will have fairly large nest eggs by the time they get married so I would probably advise both my son and daughter to get a prenup.


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## RebuildingMe

The safest prenup is to just not get married. Foolproof. Even a contested prenup will cost 10’s of thousands of dollars to defend and would likely result in a “settlement”.


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## happyhusband0005

RebuildingMe said:


> The safest prenup is to just not get married. Foolproof. Even a contested prenup will cost 10’s of thousands of dollars to defend and would likely result in a “settlement”.


They'll have plenty of money to lose 10s of thousands of dollars if that happened. A properly crafted prenup should be easy to defend, doing it right would include a predetermined payout. Basically the idea is the party agreeing to it has to get something for agreeing to it. So lets say my son gets married at 27. By then he should have 1.5-2 million, so a prenup would probably say if he gets divorced after 5 years his future wife would get something like 300k. Then she would get her portion of the accumulated marital assets. If he ends up with a marriage like ours it's little (relatively) risk high reward.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

The same woman for the rest of your life that never gets younger coupled with a 50% chance of financial ruin. Sounds grand.


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## happyhusband0005

SuaveTigris said:


> I believe prenuptial agreements are about to be so under assault by divorce lawyers and their friendly judges that practically speaking it is only a question of time before they are void. The legal system is (for the most) not any more about the law, but rather has become another extension of the "social Justice" movement.
> 
> And the more resources one has, the more the lawyers will hammer away to create precedents. Feel free to make an "iron clad" prenup, but know that the modern society, popular culture and feminists can disregard any laws by merely bullying weak and non-principled legal minds (of which there are plenty).
> 
> A new way of men and women living and existing in a social space will emerge, just to foolproof the man. We already see it in the "MeToo" era. This cultural garbage has been dumped here from Amerika as much as Coca Cola and Mc Donalds and the women here have learned that to bully a man into submission is easier than they could ever dream about. I absolutely expect men not only to start living more as room-mates, but also to socialize with women at arenas where they are more secure. The future issue will remain children. The Feminists, the same ones who worship abortions are the first ones to talk about it "is all for the children". As always this is as fake as the gold in Forth Knox.


You're paranoid. If a prenup is properly done, includes a full and complete disclosure of all assets, both parties have legal representation, and the deal is fair, it's not getting thrown out. Instead of my example in my other post if a prenup only paid his hypothetical future wife say 10,000 a judge might consider it too lopsided and toss it or increase the payout, but if you do it fairly thats not going to happen, no matter how much of a big meanie the woman is. But I'm assuming you would agree if my daughter gets a prenup she can include a tiny payout for her hypothetical future husband and be fine. 

A person takes on a huge risk when trying to break a properly crafted contract. I had a lawsuit that proved this point very well. I was doing a real estate development, the guy selling the land wanted 3 million for the land, the price was fair but the project was risky so I offered 2.5. He eventually agreed. After I got all the approvals local and state, signed up the major tenants and was ready to close and start, the seller decided now that he knew what I was doing for a project he wanted his original 3 million. He actually said to me I know what the P&S says but you can afford to pay 3 so unless you do I'm not selling. Now I had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on civil engineers, lawyers, architect, everything, so I told him either you stick to the contract or I sue for specific performance. He felt the judge would side with him because I was the big bad developer and he was just a small guy who owns a piece of land and the land is basically his entire net worth. Well I sued and by the time we got to trial my legal fees were around 300k, construction costs had gone up a lot I had lost one of the tenants I had signed up and I was going to have to renew s couple of the approvals. In the end I won and the guy had to sell me the land for 2.5 per the contract and he had to pay me just short of 1 million dollars in damages and legal fees. So by stupidly trying to breach a contract at the end of the day instead of walking away from closing with a couple million bucks (after taxes) he walked away with just over a million.


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## Enigma32

Sbrown said:


> When my 10yo comes of age I will do my best to discourage marriage. I've been married to his mother for going on 12 years and she's my best friend, but if things go south I will be financially destroyed. I will get to see my son 4 days a month and live on bean's and Rice. I wouldn't recommend allowing ANYONE to have that much control over you.


It's really sad that it comes down to this but it really does. A buddy of mine used to rent some apartments in town here, nothing luxurious or anything. His upstairs neighbor was a doctor. He got talking to the guy once over a couple of beers and he lost his house and kids in the divorce. Now, here he is an MD, and he is living in a basic 1 bedroom apartment.


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## RebuildingMe

happyhusband0005 said:


> You're paranoid. If a prenup is properly done, includes a full and complete disclosure of all assets, both parties have legal representation, and the deal is fair, it's not getting thrown out. Instead of my example in my other post if a prenup only paid his hypothetical future wife say 10,000 a judge might consider it too lopsided and toss it or increase the payout, but if you do it fairly thats not going to happen, no matter how much of a big meanie the woman is. But I'm assuming you would agree if my daughter gets a prenup she can include a tiny payout for her hypothetical future husband and be fine.
> 
> A person takes on a huge risk when trying to break a properly crafted contract. I had a lawsuit that proved this point very well. I was doing a real estate development, the guy selling the land wanted 3 million for the land, the price was fair but the project was risky so I offered 2.5. He eventually agreed. After I got all the approvals local and state, signed up the major tenants and was ready to close and start, the seller decided now that he knew what I was doing for a project he wanted his original 3 million. He actually said to me I know what the P&S says but you can afford to pay 3 so unless you do I'm not selling. Now I had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on civil engineers, lawyers, architect, everything, so I told him either you stick to the contract or I sue for specific performance. He felt the judge would side with him because I was the big bad developer and he was just a small guy who owns a piece of land and the land is basically his entire net worth. Well I sued and by the time we got to trial my legal fees were around 300k, construction costs had gone up a lot I had lost one of the tenants I had signed up and I was going to have to renew s couple of the approvals. In the end I won and the guy had to sell me the land for 2.5 per the contract and he had to pay me just short of 1 million dollars in damages and legal fees. So by stupidly trying to breach a contract at the end of the day instead of walking away from closing with a couple million bucks (after taxes) he walked away with just over a million.


You need both a prenuptial and a postnuptial. It should be ratified every few years. If you think your piece of paper that was signed 20 years ago is holding up, think again.

I’m glad that worked out for you. Sucks you had all that money tied up in the legal system, which as we all know, has grown very inefficient in the US.


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## Evinrude58

A young man that believes he will do well financially in the future, wouid be a fool to marry a woman with an earning potential far below his, particularly foolish if she is a stay at home mom. Marriage in general is a highly risky prospect. 
My experience has been that young ladies today value the wedding itself far more than the marriage. Once a lot of women get what they think they want— a husband, a home, and kids/— they suddenly find that raising children takes a lot of time, expense, and responsibility. Then they complain to their friends who inform them that they can look for a new man, have a free babysitter every other week, and have at the very least, several years of free checks coming in monthly.
I’m sure I’m biased and totally in the wrong.


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## happyhusband0005

RebuildingMe said:


> You need both a prenuptial and a postnuptial. It should be ratified every few years. If you think your piece of paper that was signed 20 years ago is holding up, think again.


Yes most properly drafted prenups have an expiration date. Thats why you see some marriages with prenups end abruptly shortly before it expires. The party that requested it in the first place either decided things were too questionable to risk it or they asked for a renewed one got a no and pulled the chute.


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## Sbrown

happyhusband0005 said:


> They'll have plenty of money to lose 10s of thousands of dollars if that happened. A properly crafted prenup should be easy to defend, doing it right would include a predetermined payout. Basically the idea is the party agreeing to it has to get something for agreeing to it. So lets say my son gets married at 27. By then he should have 1.5-2 million, so a prenup would probably say if he gets divorced after 5 years his future wife would get something like 300k. Then she would get her portion of the accumulated marital assets. If he ends up with a marriage like ours it's little (relatively) risk high reward.


What's the reward you got from being married?


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## happyhusband0005

I would say to keep it very basic a having a partner who has my back 100% no matter what, a mother for my kids and being able to share life with someone who has been there and will be there until the end. My life wouldn't be nearly what it is today without her in it. If we weren't married it wouldn't be the same.


----------



## Sbrown

happyhusband0005 said:


> I would say to keep it very basic a having a partner who has my back 100% no matter what, a mother for my kids and being able to share life with someone who has been there and will be there until the end. My life wouldn't be nearly what it is today without her in it. If we weren't married it wouldn't be the same.


What did the ceremony do to improve this? You think it made you a better person? Your wife?


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## happyhusband0005

Sbrown said:


> What did the ceremony do to improve this? You think it made you a better person? Your wife?


I think having made the commitment did change things. Hard to explain but it just made the bond more intense. I think being a solidified family unit strengthened by the formal and legal bond is just different than if we were just living together. I also think it is much better for the kids, it gives them a higher level of stability. Did it make us better people no but I do think it made us better partners.


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## happyhusband0005

SuaveTigris said:


> The real issue with marriage of today is that is has become nothing but a legal Sword of Damocles upon the man. As long as women embrace feminism and woksterism OR do nothing to stand up to it, they also have to accept that there will be a reaction.
> 
> The third law of Newton applies to more than just a force.
> 
> Until/unless this changes, I see marriage as nothing but the starting fall of that man.


Most women are not as scary as you think. There are lots of crappy people in the world, their crappiness doesn't depend on them being a man or a woman.


----------



## happyhusband0005

SuaveTigris said:


> The FORMAL bond is something that matters more to some than others. Many men find the marriage some of the biggest stress in their lives, but they cannot even project anything but utter enthusiasm. Then the first lie of the marriage starts, the first genuine suppression of truth and expression.
> 
> The LEGAL bond is entirely one-sided and based on the man being guilty until proven otherwise and having to dole out huge amounts of money for simply being allowed normalcy.
> 
> Of course, there are people who believe in rituals and rites, but marriage, especially the ones being forced upon the man is the start of power imbalance.


Yah if a man is being forced into marriage, 1 he's not much of a man, 2 there's really no hope of that being a decent marriage. If the marriage itself is a source of stress then obviously there is something very wrong. A good marriage doesn't have any power imbalance. In our marriage I am the decision make most of the time, but that isn't because I have more power, it's because my wife tends to be a little indecisive, she gets analysis paralysis so she appreciates me being decisive. But no one is bossing anyone around.


----------



## happyhusband0005

SuaveTigris said:


> There are many ways being forced into marriage. There could be constant and snide bickering now&then where woman implies dissatisfaction. There can be pressure from parents. There can be subtle hints that it is something that has to be done. Finally, a man should be HAAAAPPPY as never before or otherwise it is punishment time.
> 
> Young men are weaker than women most of the time. They have not built the patience or understanding of how these seemingly innocent things are setting them up for a high risk of future doom. They are in the moment, they are getting enough sex and woman is mostly taking care of herself. It is easy to give in or simply close the eyes.
> 
> Of course there are exceptions to this, but any action that carries a 50% risk of a very bad outcome, should be questioned at least. I just think young men should be more aware of how society has stacked the deck entirely against them and this may help them see marriage in a different and more realistic light.
> 
> What's in it for me? Should be the MINIMUM of questions asked. At times, I havegotten asked by a woman if we should move in together and AGAIN, What's in it for me? High risk of disaster when it is over. This is the time to pull the plug, at least if she insists. Modern women will not put up with anything that gives them even an inch of disadvantage, so why should we?


I agree, If there is any doubt you shouldn't get married. Adults are responsible for their own lives, no one should make a decision like getting married because they felt pressure from anyone. I do believe there are a lot of people that kind of settle and get married because they think it's time or she really wants it so I should just do it. You just have to read a few divorce related threads on here to see people who had some doubts before getting married but went through with it hoping for the best. What they're really saying is I saw this coming or the had plenty of reason to see it coming. There's a reason why the divorce rate is so high. So yah advice for young men AND women about marriage be 100% certain it's right.


----------



## Jung_admirer

It used to be that marriage implied a committed relationship, but No Fault seems to have completely destroyed this. Marriage is a legal contract between two parties enforced by the State... nothing more. What most people desire in a relationship is a committed partner. The State cannot make this happen so please explain how marriage serves a committed partner? In fact, the legal construct of marriage seems to be creating distance between potential partners by creating outcomes desired by the State, but not necessarily needed or desired by either partner. I've been married over 30 years, and if someone said to me "I need the safety a marriage contract creates", I would tell them they are not ready to enter a partnership on equal footing. This creates resentments (Harley/Gottman) and marginalizes the relationship from the outset. 

How many contracts are you aware of where one party can completely violate the basic tenets (fidelity etc), and still extract financial considerations from the contract they expressly violated? This applies equally to men and women as each have become equally entitled bad actors, perhaps 40% of the time.


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## Diana7

SuaveTigris said:


> The FORMAL bond is something that matters more to some than others. Many men find the marriage some of the biggest stress in their lives, but they cannot even project anything but utter enthusiasm. Then the first lie of the marriage starts, the first genuine suppression of truth and expression.
> 
> The LEGAL bond is entirely one-sided and based on the man being guilty until proven otherwise and having to dole out huge amounts of money for simply being allowed normalcy.
> 
> Of course, there are people who believe in rituals and rites, but marriage, especially the ones being forced upon the man is the start of power imbalance.


Marriage is never forced upon anyone with the exeption of young women from some third world countries.


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## Diana7

If I felt I needed a pre-nup before I married then I wouldnt get married. If I cant trust a man I am to marry then no point in being with him.

I actually find this thread pretty laughable, that some of the men here think they are the 'poor victims' who are 'forced' into marriage by some harridian of a woman so that she can later divorce him and take everything he has. Most men want to get married, many are very happy, and far happier than they were before marriage. Many men jump very quickly into another marriage after their first one ends. Clearly they didnt hate it that much.


----------



## Diana7

SuaveTigris said:


> The FORMAL bond is something that matters more to some than others. Many men find the marriage some of the biggest stress in their lives, but they cannot even project anything but utter enthusiasm. Then the first lie of the marriage starts, the first genuine suppression of truth and expression.
> 
> The LEGAL bond is entirely one-sided and based on the man being guilty until proven otherwise and having to dole out huge amounts of money for simply being allowed normalcy.
> 
> Of course, there are people who believe in rituals and rites, but marriage, especially the ones being forced upon the man is the start of power imbalance.


Your views are seeminngly skewed by the fact that you are divorced. All women are not your wife. Your wife is not all women.


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## Mr. Nail

Countless millions of spouses betray.
Whatever happened to "just say NO"?


----------



## Evinrude58

Diana7 said:


> If I felt I needed a pre-nup before I married then I wouldnt get married. If I cant trust a man I am to marry then no point in being with him.
> 
> I actually find this thread pretty laughable, that some of the men here think they are the 'poor victims' who are 'forced' into marriage by some harridian of a woman so that she can later divorce him and take everything he has. Most men want to get married, many are very happy, and far happier than they were before marriage. Many men jump very quickly into another marriage after their first one ends. Clearly they didnt hate it that much.


Diane, I think your heart is in the right place but look at what you’re saying.
“If I can’t trust him”
Diane, people’s past is usually a good indicator of their future behavior. When most people are getting married the first time in their 20’s—— there’s no pattern to follow. Besides that, a person can make you think they’re trustworthy, and then you find out they’re not. I did! My ex was always bad about lying, but I didn’t think she had it in her to cheat. I truly didn’t have any reason that she’d want to do that. She never cheated the 4 years we dated.
Getting married now gives neither party any more confidence in having a safe, committed partner than not getting married and living together. Marriage in 99% of all cases is nothing but a legal screwup for a man if his wife is unfaithful or chooses to divorce him.
You can’t just say I wouldn’t have married him if I didn’t trust him. I trusted my ex to be faithful and had no reason to believe she wouldn’t be. 14 yrs later, I didn’t recognize the person I saw texting other men and sending them pics and videos. I had NO idea she was capable of such vile behavior.
There’s not always a warning. She hid her true self from me. However, I wasn’t fired up to marry her after 4 years, and only did due to constant harassment to marry her. I did want a family. I think I should have listened to my subconscious.
Just saying....


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## vincent3

I wouldn't tell him about my experience or what I've concluded about marriage. I'd just remind him that marriage is ultimately a legal contract and that he should talk to a men's advocacy lawyer before getting in too far - and especially if he has already gotten in too far.


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## vincent3

I know many people who have controlled this aspect of their lives. They intentionally didn't get married or have children because it wasn't right for them. Some of these people are now middle aged or seniors and seem happy with their lives. Sure, we can speculate that they might not be as happy as they seem. I'd rather let them speak for themselves.


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## Mr. Nail

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## Al_Bundy

I have found sharing content from guys like Rollo Tomassi, Rich Cooper, Donovan Sharpe....etc. to be a good way to get through to other friends. That way it's not coming from me and they can see all the comments on the videos and realize other guys are in the same boat.


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## think positive

happyhusband0005 said:


> Ahh so you've been divorced once already. Makes sense. The way you worded it was that you would discourage your son from ever getting married not that you would warn him of the risk. 2 different things. I think after all the horror stories I have read about guys getting divorced a warning of the risks and giving an understanding of the statistics is sensible. Both of my kids will have fairly large nest eggs by the time they get married so I would probably advise both my son and daughter to get a prenup.


Prenups have loopholes. If their nest eggs warrant, they may want to consider other more extensive forms of protection. Family courts are generally still more mom friendly but I knew a friend of my wife whose dirt bag ex got some cash exiting the marriage claiming he grew accustomed to a lifestyle...he didn't take her to the cleaners but she had exposed assets that the courts allowed him to take advantage of.


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