# Patience...



## HCH

Long story as short as possible...

About 8 months ago, my wife said the dreaded "we needed to talk." We've been together for 20 years, married for 14. We practically grew up together. Over the years, I have certainly slacked in my emotional and actual responsibilities in the marriage. I won't take full blame and she has confessed to some of her downfalls as well, but she had a sudden realization that she wasn't happy. 

We talked about things. I was angry, hurt etc. I overreacted initially, but eventually came around. Admitted my faults and have promised to do everything I can to rectify those faults. 4 months later, Things were getting worse. She was pulling farther away and I was becoming more and more resentful. At that point, she wanted a separation. I wanted nothing less. Eventually, I realized that if things were ever going to get better that we needed that space to ease some of pressures of the day to day emotions or lack thereof in her case.

Things were bad. She couldn't say if she actually wanted the marriage to work out or if she thought she could ever get back to a happy place with "us" She was lost, confused and completely shut down to me. We had very little contact except some emails back & forth and (by the way we have 2 kids) conversations about logistics dealing with the kids and their activities. I did a lot of explaining my side. Both what I understood my issues to be and why I think I was doing or not doing those things. Eventually something hit home. She sent an email saying something along the lines of, "Wow! You really do get it." and thanked me for saying the things I was saying. Since then, we've begun doing a lot more things as a family. Going to swim meets, out to lunch/dinners with the kids, etc. Things are feeling great. There seems to be a renewed connection. Even to the point of when I was driving them home one night after dinner, she reached over and held my hand on the way. 

Sounds good right? But, when I told her that I think we need to attempt to do something weekly either as a family or just the two of us in order to keep this positive momentum, she agreed to the family stuff, but not to us "dating" She thinks us going out together alone feels like too much pressure. 

Here is where I'm confused....I know it's going to take time to (if it happens) get back to solid ground again. BUT, what will it take for her to be prepared to take that step. Is it something that I'll do, is it a mindset that she needs to develop, will she have another sudden realization...what is it!? I know no one could ever begin to put a time frame on something like this, but I go through phases (regardless of how well things seem to be going) where I think this could go on and on for way longer than I'm expecting and/or prepared for. I'm desperately trying to steel my resolve, suck it up and prepare for needing a lot of patience. On the other hand I'm getting more and more frustrated with the fact that I am doing everything in my power to be a better husband, but to me it appears that she's not working on things on her end.


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## the guy

If there is another man in her life it will be impossible for you guys to get to that point you are looking for.

You may be competing with a new love, romanticly speaking. as for as the family man your wife knows that is cover by you, but I think she has someone that is treating her like a women and then she has you and is happy having you just as the father of her children.

In short she will never get the spark back when there is a fir else were.


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## HCH

The one thing I am certain of is that there's not anyone else. If there was, I'd be out in a heartbeat.


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## Stretch

You are doing the 180 maybe by mistake but that is the standard strategy here on TAM. Basically, by doing something different, aka addressing the items you have confirmed that are at the root of your problems, you are showing your change is real. Continue changing for YOU. Itis being noticed trust me.

There is nothing to do except continue your process and hope that the WAS will be re-engaged by the change.

Your thread title says it all. It is a long uncertain road but if your marriage is meant to be saved you will have transformed yourself into the man you need to be to make it work. If not, you will be a better man for yourself.

Diligence is your friend.

Be strong,
Stretch


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## Amplexor

I will address as if there is not another party involved but you need to fully verify that. As stated by TG, if there is, no amount of effort you put in will trump her emotional attachment to another man. I speak from experience.

When a wife disconnects from a marriage they typically have hit the game over button. It generally follows years of trying, false promises and disappointment. Feeling hurt over and over again, they build an emotional wall that the, now out in the cold, husband can't penetrate. Seemingly no matter the efforts. It must come down brick by brick and at her tempo. An example is the hand holding. It's a brick, nothing more and dollars to doughnuts, you put a lot more emphasis on it then she does. Her wall keeps her safe from disappointment and being hurt. In her eyes she sees a pattern in her husband to improve then fall back on to old habits and behaviors. Unfortunately, she is usually correct. If you have to push a husband to divorce to get action it's extortion, not a healthy recovery of the marriage.

If you are truly committed to reconciliation, your actions will prove that to her more than words. A steady show of resolve and support will begin to loosen those bricks. If you do things right, once the wall starts to crumble it will at an accelerated rate as it did for my wife. But the build up took years because the foundation of the marriage had to be rebuilt.

For the steel that you seek. Patience was a virtue my wife would have never attached to me, nor would my children. But with my marriage failing, my family crumbling and my life at the abyss I found the resolve and developed the patience. It took over a year to kill the EA. Another 8 months to rekindle a sex life and intimacy. Six more months before she said "I love you!". And several more months after that before she was truly back in love with me. We are nearly 8 years post D-Day. Still doing fine, still loving each other and still doing for each other what we should have been doing all along before we hit the wall.

It can be a tough road but it is not impassable.


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## tom67

HCH
I truly hope you have done investigating to rule out another man otherwise you are spinning your wheels in the mud and the betrayal will be that much worse.
Like what was said improve yourself for you and no more relationship talk kids only.
Become a man of mystery to her and yes she will notice if there isn't another man.
The fact she doesn't want to go on a date has me wondering why.


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## HCH

Stretch said:


> It is a long uncertain road but if your marriage is meant to be saved you will have transformed yourself into the man you need to be to make it work. If not, you will be a better man for yourself.


At least I've got that going for me. Thanks Stretch.


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## HCH

Nail on the head Amp. Thanks.


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## HCH

tom67 said:


> HCH
> I truly hope you have done investigating to rule out another man otherwise you are spinning your wheels in the mud and the betrayal will be that much worse.


I've done everything possible and have every reason to believe there is not another man.



tom67 said:


> HCH
> The fact she doesn't want to go on a date has me wondering why.


Me too, but her rational is (like I said above) she feels like it puts too much pressure on her. I'm not pushing to find out what exactly she means, but I'm sort of taking it as she's not quite ready for that next step... it's frustrating as hell.


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## Kevinb

Thanks Amp, your words are beautiful and is helping me go through the pain I'm in


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## HCH

Latest contact was all about how she was completely impressed with the changes I was making. She says that I've done everything she could ever ask for...even more than she thought I was capable of. I've been given all sorts of compliments on the way I've handled the situation.

The problem now is that she says she still just can't seem to feel the way she thinks she should. She says she wants us to get back to the way we were, she misses the affection, she misses my company...BUT she can't seem to find the right feelings. She feels happy when she sees me but not in the way "she should." She's likes living alone and sleeping alone. She ends the communication with "what is wrong with me?"

She still feels emotionally disconnected and says "sometimes" she feels attracted to me but thinks she is still closed off to it.

I've had a conversation with her about the meds she's on. She's going to try to have the dose or prescription changed in hopes that they just have her feeling numb. One can hope that it's that simple.

I fear that she is holding on to the past and wanting it to be that way, but deep down she may be too far gone. Wishing it were good again, but not able to see or admit that she is actually finished.


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## Amplexor

HCH said:


> The problem now is that she says she still just can't seem to feel the way she thinks she should. She says she wants us to get back to the way we were, she misses the affection, she misses my company...BUT she can't seem to find the right feelings. She feels happy when she sees me but not in the way "she should."


Pretty much verbatim to my wife's comments. Even though she recognizes your efforts and even applauds them it does not mean the wall is down. She's getting closer on the "logical" side of things but not the emotional. There is no timetable for that and neither of you have much control over it.

When my wife reached this stage she felt terrible about it in light of my efforts. The problem, in her eyes, was no longer me, it was her and it scared her. My solution was a quiet confidence that "we'll be OK" and "I'll give things time" to improve. It wasn't an I'll wait until the end of time but willing to move forward slowly. I gave her my support but did not pursue her romantically. Pushing can drive a disconnected spouse further away. I simply let her draw back to me. Affection and non sexual intimacy began to recover.

When I felt the time was right I had a discussion with her that it was time to restart our sexual relations. We never separated in our difficult times so that conversation was easier than what yours will be. She was hesitant but the discussion centered around what was best for the marriage and that sex would help us both in bonding within the marriage. It did, fairly quickly and dramatically. The bricks began to tumble and she felt more confident that things were on the right track for her emotionally. Later that year, on Christmas Eve, the words that had escaped her for so long, found their way. "I love you." I'd not heard them in years.


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## commonsenseisn't

HCH

Amplexor has given you some of the best advise I've ever seen on this forum. I can't add to it except to lend encouragement. 

I sense that your marriage is truly worth rescuing and I hope you have success. Don't lose faith.


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## HCH

Commonsenseisn't, I couldn't agree more.

Thank you Amp and Commonsense.

Amp, the similarities are amazing...like we're reading from the same script. It is helpful to hear your story and I truly appreciate your sharing.


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## Stretch

Stay diligent on your journey.

Become the man you want to be. Things will turn out for the best and as you can see, success comes with patience and diligence.

Keep it up bro'

Stretch


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## neglected42

I only wish my husband had the patience and compassion of Amplexor . His advice is spot on! Although I am still living with my husband, I have totally emotionally detached from him, and have been so for years. He is finally trying to make changes required for some kind of hope of reconciliation.

He is doing well with the changes, but has no patience when it comes to my lack of affection. He feels he is changing, so my feelings should be changing as well.

Not so easy! It takes time to trust. It takes time to even try to emotionally re-attach. There are feelings that have to be there for a women. It would be easy if we could insert them when logic dictates. 

One thing I know for sure, his pressure, his anger and frustration at the lack of affection, and his impatience with me in general makes everything so much worse. I do not like being alone with him because I know it will ultimately end up in a "discussion" as to what is taking so long. I am relieved when he leaves the house, and I am tense when he is home. All I know is that I would love for him to give me some space and time to heal and deal with my emotions. 

That he would do that for me would certainly increase the likelihood of any kind of affection returning.


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## commonsenseisn't

neglected42 said:


> I only wish my husband had the patience and compassion of Amplexor . His advice is spot on! Although I am still living with my husband, I have totally emotionally detached from him, and have been so for years. He is finally trying to make changes required for some kind of hope of reconciliation.
> 
> He is doing well with the changes, but has no patience when it comes to my lack of affection. He feels he is changing, so my feelings should be changing as well.
> 
> Not so easy! It takes time to trust. It takes time to even try to emotionally re-attach. There are feelings that have to be there for a women. It would be easy if we could insert them when logic dictates.
> 
> One thing I know for sure, his pressure, his anger and frustration at the lack of affection, and his impatience with me in general makes everything so much worse. I do not like being alone with him because I know it will ultimately end up in a "discussion" as to what is taking so long. I am relieved when he leaves the house, and I am tense when he is home. All I know is that I would love for him to give me some space and time to heal and deal with my emotions.
> 
> That he would do that for me would certainly increase the likelihood of any kind of affection returning.


Wishing you success. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to offer your husband some encouragement. Acknowledgement of his efforts might do you both good.


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## neglected42

Just as HCH's wife has, I have certainly offered words of encouragement and have acknowledged his efforts. Although I can tell HGH appreciates the acknowledgement of his changes and efforts, he like my husband is frustrated that there is not more on physical side. (That is the kind of acknowledgement they are really looking for). I just wanted to encourage him to continue with the patience. Pressure, anger and frustration will work against him. I would hate to see that happen, as it sounds like he is making some progress. I can relate to how his wife feels. I feel the same.


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## HCH

neglected42 said:


> Just as HCH's wife has, I have certainly offered words of encouragement and have acknowledged his efforts. Although I can tell HGH appreciates the acknowledgement of his changes and efforts, he like my husband is frustrated that there is not more on physical side. (That is the kind of acknowledgement they are really looking for). I just wanted to encourage him to continue with the patience. Pressure, anger and frustration will work against him. I would hate to see that happen, as it sounds like he is making some progress. I can relate to how his wife feels. I feel the same.


Neglected, I honestly appreciate the advice and that is exactly what I'm trying so hard to do. Patience is difficult at this point, but it's all I've got really. I'm also not so much concerned about the physical as the emotional at this time. I know if the emotional is there, the physical will be too (at some point)

But, to play a little devil's advocate...

I certainly appreciate acknowledgment. No doubt about it. I also (sort of) understand her initial pulling away. But, my inability to fully understand her feelings/emotions makes it difficult to put myself in her shoes. I look at the situation as if we BOTH have some pretty major trust issues to deal with. We BOTH have things that we need to work on to build the relationship back up. Although as far as we've come, I only see one side actually working on anything. I've made changes, I've gone to therapy, I continue to work on improving myself. Also, I am allowing myself to be more vulnerable than I have ever been before in my life. I don't fully trust her in this relationship, but I'm overlooking that, putting myself out there and moving as if I want to do all I can to save our family. On the other hand, she isn't. She needs time and space. Again, I "sort of" get it, but if you really truly want something, than you need to work for it. If I can be vulnerable, why can't you? If I can see past my fears and doubts and still do the things I need to, why can't you?

It's unbelievably painful to not trust someone. It's even worse to have them not trust you. We both are going through that. At least, I've said, "no matter how scared or hurt I am, I'm waiting."

I don't get that kind of encouragement. I have to wait until she decides "Yes, I want to be with you." or "No, I'm finished with you."


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## HCH

And an update...

We, while things were especially rough, decided that we needed to file separation agreement paperwork. As things moved forward, neither of us followed through on it. We had verbally agreed on everything. How we'd handle finances, kids, etc. We have always seen eye to eye on these items. We've been extremely fair in all aspects and both parties have followed through without any hiccups along the way.

Fast forwarding to last week, she sends me a draft of the separation agreement from her lawyer. She asked that I look over it and let her know if it all looks correct. First off, I'm shocked and a little put off since things had been going relatively well. But, I suck it up, read through the paper work and make some notes.

Within the first couple of paragraphs, it mentions we are separating due to disputes and irreconcilable differences. It also states, "there is no probability of reconciliation between them." My first note was, "I will not sign this with that verbiage in there. Unless you are telling me differently, I believe that reconciliation is at least possible" She explains that she asked the lawyer to remove it, but he has told her that it needs to be in there that way. ??? I don't get it.

The paperwork is filled with details, although minor, that are all leaning in her favor. Then I noticed that there were changes to things we had previously discussed about the house and how it would be handled. Mortgage, equity, potential sale, etc. This was the biggest eye catcher for me. All of a sudden, I was to get (in case of future sale) a lump sum from the current equity and nothing more in the future. Yet, I was continuing to help pay for repairs and upkeep. This ALMOST made me lose my cool. I typed up my thoughts, read them, retyped them, reread them, retyped them...over and over until it sounded calm and rational. Again, I'm told the lawyer said it should be done this way. 

So here's my point...I couldn't care less about selling/taking/getting money from the house. It's my children's home. I want them to be comfortable and stay there as long as possible. I am not looking towards divorce. I am looking towards reconciliation, so none of these things matter to me currently. I've voiced my mistrust and concern over the amount of detail contained in this agreement. Mentioning that it sounded like a divorce decree. I've voiced my concerns about it leaning in her favor. But I have also said that none of it matters as much as the fact that she had them drawn up at all. We're supposed to be trying to fix things...not shoving wedges between us. I've asked why she felt the need to file this. 

Her answer: 
1. to protect me - since I moved out, legally it could be seen as abandonment. This states that we agreed to my moving out.
2. to make her feel protected against me being able to hurt her financially. ????????!!!!!!!!

She says, that she didn't want me to be able to force the sale of the house, gain access to her 401k, etc. I'm dumbfounded. It made me furious. Throughout this and our past, I have certainly lost my temper. I was a hot headed kid when we met, but NEVER have I done anything to hurt her...not intentionally at least. I know for a fact that I've SAID hurtful things in the heat of an argument, but for someone who has known me for over 20 years...who knows the kind of person I am to take that angle really pushed me to a new low. The fact that she may not trust me as a husband in emotional support. Or the ability to do the things she needed around the house for support is one thing. To now move that mistrust into thinking that I would be the guy who would try to disrupt her life and the lives of my children out of anger is offensive. Who does she think I am? What have I done to change the way she sees me as a person...as a decent human being!?!? 

I explained that it made me angry. She says, "I don't REALLY think you would, but I'm scared and just want to be sure that I'm protected." The old, it's not you, it's me routine. If you didn't think I would, then you wouldn't be scared... I don't get it.

So, I've gone over the thing with my lawyer, adjusted the things I needed adjusted and signed 4 copies...with it continuing to say, "there is no probability of reconciliation between them." I left that in, because if she thinks I'm the kind of person who she needs to protect herself from, then the probability of reconciliation is likely very low.


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## tom67

Good to protect yourself.


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## Propwash72

HCH, your situation sounds very similar to mine. A couple of months ago my wife did the whole ILBINILY thing, says she had built a wall between us due to my issues with depression and negativity, my inability to set good boundaries with my parents (all reasonable criticisms), and a few other things (some on her side, some on mine). She says she had not been happy for a couple of years but had buried it. In her case there had been some emotional entanglement with a guy she knows though her work, but who doesn't live here locally. I'm confident that there never was a PA, and while it could be argued there was an EA, it never proceeded beyond some flirty texting. She has gone NC with the guy; I continue to monitor her communications and internet ativity and I can't find any evidence that she's not keeping her word. Her story on him has been very consistent. I'm putting a pin in the potential EA for the time being while we address our core issues.

Basically she doesn't trust that I can be a happy and positive person and that I have her back when it comes to dealing with my parents. While I have made some serious changes in my life to address those issues, and she notices, I don't have much of a track record in that area. She's 43 and I'm 42; a big part of this is the normal questioning of life's direction at this age. She just doesn't know if she's meant to be with me anymore.

It will be frustrating and slow. I feel jerked around; some days she's affectionate, even sexual, and she talks about things like protecting our marriage. She said the other day that she liked the idea of growing old with me. Then this week she's been much more distant and openly questions whether there's been too much damage in our marriage for it to be recoverable. Sometimes this is in the course of a single evening. The good news is that she and I still live together, are communicating and friendly with each other. She's looking forward to our first MC session next Monday.

I don't post to talk about my problems but to say that patience is your friend. Take care of yourself. The 180 is real. I've been doing that (with varying degrees of success) and I think it's helped get us to a much better place than we were in a couple of weeks ago. For me the silver lining has been weight loss. I had lost some weight before bomb drop, but the stress afterwards helped me lose the remaining 20 pounds I needed to lose. I'm now almost to what I weighed when I graduated high school. To leverage that I've hit the gym and I'm getting ripped. She notices. If she sticks around she'll get the benefits, if she doesn't, then some other lucky woman will.

My biggest problem has been anxiety. At some times it's been crippling and interfered with me doing my job. Listening to music helps me. I listen to music that gets me pumped up, and it instantly lifts my mood.

Basically, let go. You can't say anything to snap her out of it, but if you can be strong, positive and most of all consistent, she will notice. She's riding a roller coaster. Do what you can to get off that ride. I will discuss our relationship but only when she initiates. I will not discuss the logistics of divorce with her. 

The wall analogy is a good one. The wall has been built up over a long time. If your marriage is meant to be saved, it will only come down brick by brick.


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## D.H Mosquito

I wouldn't sign it without seeing my lawyer first and get him to even things up a bit, it certainly looks like she is stalling for time until she gets things stacked in her favour and then hitting you with divorce papers rather than a genuine attempt to reconcile


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## neglected42

> Throughout this and our past, I have certainly lost my temper. I was a hot headed kid when we met, but NEVER have I done anything to hurt her...not intentionally at least.


 This sounds just like something my husband would say. Let me assure you, the loss of your temper has definitely caused her to feel a need to be protected. That "rage" and loss of control may seem like nothing to you, but it is significant. 

I was at a party once where one of my girlfriends was in an argument with her boyfriend. He "lost his temper". I will never forget how all the women at the party acted. They were horrified. Said things like "my husband would NEVER talk to me like that", "she needs to get rid of him", etc, etc. My friend was divorced shortly afterwards. The thing is, his loss of temper did not have the same impact on me. I had seen that kind of thing in my own marriage. I did not realize it was not normal. 

If she is trying to protect herself it is because she does not trust you. Perhaps your temper has something to do with this. I went to see a lawyer regarding my situation because I felt I needed to protect myself from my husband as well. If we were going to separate, I felt he might let his temper guide him rather than logic, and what is best for the children. 

I think it is definitely a good idea to see a lawyer before you sign anything. He will tell you that she is correct. It is important to have in writing that you both agreed that you would move out. I have heard many times that if you leave the house it could be perceived as abandonment.

I understand you feel powerless. My husband tells me that all the time. He is used to bullying and yelling to get his way, and it no longer works. It actually just drives me further away. You cannot force someone to love you. Patience is all you have. It will either work or it will not. Enjoy your children, find a new hobby, try something new. Find a way to distract yourself and stay positive. There is always hope.


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## HCH

neglected42 said:


> This sounds just like something my husband would say. Let me assure you, the loss of your temper has definitely caused her to feel a need to be protected. That "rage" and loss of control may seem like nothing to you, but it is significant.
> 
> If she is trying to protect herself it is because she does not trust you. Perhaps your temper has something to do with this. I went to see a lawyer regarding my situation because I felt I needed to protect myself from my husband as well. If we were going to separate, I felt he might let his temper guide him rather than logic, and what is best for the children.


Neglected, I certainly understand how that could be a part of it, but I'm not sure "rage" is what I've displayed throughout this. Through my own personal therapy, I am working on my ability to have the proper emotional reactions to things. I do tend to get hurt and try to hurt back. Saying things that I don't necessarily mean. I've been incredibly careful about how I act when things get too hard to handle over the last 6 months. 

I'm sure she has tip toed through a lot of our disagreements over the years and that certainly weighs on her mind now. But, regardless of any emotional outburst I may have, she of all people knows who I am inside and knowing that she should know that I wouldn't try to hurt her financially.


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## HCH

Well...patience has not been my strong suit.

She continues to flip flop. She continues to do things which do not seem to be the things that the woman I married would be doing at this point. She will seem like she's coming around, only to follow it up with a dagger in my back. "I'm hopeful." "I think it may be too late" "I want it to be great again" "I don't think we are right for each other" Back and forth back and forth...

So, I put it all on the line. I've said that I will ride this until the end of days if she wants me to. I told her though that I needed her to tell me that she wants me to remain invested in this marriage and continue to work towards saving it. If she couldn't tell me that , then I was going to move on. I received what appeared to me, to be a very confused email response, but at the end it stated, "I don't think we should be together anymore."

Now my ring has come off and I am starting to live my life as a single man for the first time in over 20 years. I was kind and polite. I went over to the house and told her that I wanted to, face to face, say that I was sorry for any and everything that I did that led to this. I gave her a good long hug and left.

Since that moment, all communication has been lighthearted. The normal day to day, friendly, stuff has reemerged. There is banter that hadn't been there in 9 months. I all but told her that I was finished. I did say that I am still in love and that will take a long long time to go away (if it ever does). I told her that I was finished "trying" I was finished doing the things that she told me she needed me to do because no matter how hard I worked, nothing changed. In fact things had become worse. I told her, "I give up. I hope you find the happiness that you're looking for."

I feel like this is kind of (in a way) the 180 thing everyone talks about. She didn't say, "NO! Don't give up!" But a light has come on. I don't think it's the light I was looking for, but all of a sudden she seems to really "like" me again. This was not the reaction I was trying to get. In fact, I thought the relationship would completely deteriorate. It didn't. It's like a weight has been lifted from her and she's coming out of a fog. I love seeing it if only for her well being. She had become someone that I couldn't even recognize. 

Now, I am not holding my breath for reconciliation. In fact, at this point, even if she decided to "come back", it would take some heavy lifting from her to convince me. I actually am relieved to have some sort of a direction instead of being in the limbo that I was in. But, has anyone seen this reaction before? Is this a common thing in certain situations? Is she just so thrilled to have me off of her back or did my "180" make her see things differently? It's beautiful whatever it is. It makes day to day life SO much easier. I just wonder what it means.


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## neglected42

HCH, I have to be honest here. It may be different in your situation. My husband is angry at me due to my loss of feelings. I did not get here by myself, if he was a different man I would not be here. The pressure (and anger) from him for me to "fix myself" and "stop ruining our marriage" is a weight on me that is quite unbearable. I can think of no greater relief than him letting me go, and doing so without anger, and in a frame of mind that will continue in the best interest of our children. You have done this for your wife. You may be seeing that weight lifted from her shoulders. She does not want to be your enemy. She does not want to bear the brunt of your anger. 

That being said, your release of her may be just the thing that will get her to see you differently. She may one day come back to you, not see you as a man who controls with his temper. I think moving forward with the mindset you are in is the best thing to do. She may want to come back some day, that day may be too late, or she may never want to return. 

Good for you for going forward without anger and blame. You will always have a relationship with your wife, as you must co-parent your children. No matter how this turns out, you have done what you could, with their best interests at heart.


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## lenzi

HCH said:


> I feel like this is kind of (in a way) the 180 thing everyone talks about.


Yes, you're doing quite well.


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## FormerSelf

I highly suggest reading Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus...as it details major differences in genders that lead to major communication barriers.

The works of Calle Zorro is recommended as well. He teaches a lot of things that men miss regarding the source of unhappiness in their wives...what we do that cause them to lose their respect and trust which is tied into their feelings of insecurity, fear, and loneliness. Once those negative feeling worm their way in, hopeless comes and then contempt and repulsion. It can be flipped, but if there is an affair partner involved then that's a whole 'nother obstacle altogether.

There are lots of resources out there that can help you work on areas of your life, and perhaps even create a scenario of re-attracting your wife. But from the sounds of it, she is trying to keep thing amenable for her benefit...which is why she hasn't been upfront about her true intentions and motives.

I'd almost say that there has to be a third party out there, because the punishment doesn't seem to fit the "crime"...and there is nothing like an affair partner to bring everything to a head like this. Of course, I'm biased from my own experience.

Stick to your legal guns. Stay amenable. Don't discuss with her anything random, emotional, or ANYTHING other than business. Keep convos short and sweet, direct and to the point. Always start a convo with..."I only have a few minutes" or something time-sensitive that you have stuff going on.


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## DadOfFour

FormerSelf said:


> I highly suggest reading Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus...as it details major differences in genders that lead to major communication barriers.
> 
> The works of Calle Zorro is recommended as well. He teaches a lot of things that men miss regarding the source of unhappiness in their wives...what we do that cause them to lose their respect and trust which is tied into their feelings of insecurity, fear, and loneliness. Once those negative feeling worm their way in, hopeless comes and then contempt and repulsion. It can be flipped, but if there is an affair partner involved then that's a whole 'nother obstacle altogether.
> 
> There are lots of resources out there that can help you work on areas of your life, and perhaps even create a scenario of re-attracting your wife. But from the sounds of it, she is trying to keep thing amenable for her benefit...which is why she hasn't been upfront about her true intentions and motives.
> 
> I'd almost say that there has to be a third party out there, because the punishment doesn't seem to fit the "crime"...and there is nothing like an affair partner to bring everything to a head like this. Of course, I'm biased from my own experience.
> 
> Stick to your legal guns. Stay amenable. Don't discuss with her anything random, emotional, or ANYTHING other than business. Keep convos short and sweet, direct and to the point. Always start a convo with..."I only have a few minutes" or something time-sensitive that you have stuff going on.


I'll second the work of Calle Zorro, he is a great guy who really cares about what happens to you and your marriage. I won't say exactly what was done but I will say he went well above and beyond what anyone has ever done for me and he doesn't know me from a bar of soap, he just knew I was hurting and needed help. Not only has Calle given me time but done other stuff that would have cost him alot of $$$. He also wouldn't take any credit for the help he had given me and passed it on to someone else. If there was ever a humble man, Calle Zorro is it.:smthumbup:


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## DadOfFour

Propwash72 said:


> HCH, your situation sounds very similar to mine. A couple of months ago my wife did the whole ILBINILY thing, says she had built a wall between us due to my issues with depression and negativity, my inability to set good boundaries with my parents (all reasonable criticisms), and a few other things (some on her side, some on mine). She says she had not been happy for a couple of years but had buried it. In her case there had been some emotional entanglement with a guy she knows though her work, but who doesn't live here locally. I'm confident that there never was a PA, and while it could be argued there was an EA, it never proceeded beyond some flirty texting. She has gone NC with the guy; I continue to monitor her communications and internet ativity and I can't find any evidence that she's not keeping her word. Her story on him has been very consistent. I'm putting a pin in the potential EA for the time being while we address our core issues.
> 
> Basically she doesn't trust that I can be a happy and positive person and that I have her back when it comes to dealing with my parents. While I have made some serious changes in my life to address those issues, and she notices, I don't have much of a track record in that area. She's 43 and I'm 42; a big part of this is the normal questioning of life's direction at this age. She just doesn't know if she's meant to be with me anymore.
> 
> It will be frustrating and slow. I feel jerked around; some days she's affectionate, even sexual, and she talks about things like protecting our marriage. She said the other day that she liked the idea of growing old with me. Then this week she's been much more distant and openly questions whether there's been too much damage in our marriage for it to be recoverable. Sometimes this is in the course of a single evening. The good news is that she and I still live together, are communicating and friendly with each other. She's looking forward to our first MC session next Monday.
> 
> I don't post to talk about my problems but to say that patience is your friend. Take care of yourself. The 180 is real. I've been doing that (with varying degrees of success) and I think it's helped get us to a much better place than we were in a couple of weeks ago. For me the silver lining has been weight loss. I had lost some weight before bomb drop, but the stress afterwards helped me lose the remaining 20 pounds I needed to lose. I'm now almost to what I weighed when I graduated high school. To leverage that I've hit the gym and I'm getting ripped. She notices. If she sticks around she'll get the benefits, if she doesn't, then some other lucky woman will.
> 
> My biggest problem has been anxiety. At some times it's been crippling and interfered with me doing my job. Listening to music helps me. I listen to music that gets me pumped up, and it instantly lifts my mood.
> 
> Basically, let go. You can't say anything to snap her out of it, but if you can be strong, positive and most of all consistent, she will notice. She's riding a roller coaster. Do what you can to get off that ride. I will discuss our relationship but only when she initiates. I will not discuss the logistics of divorce with her.
> 
> The wall analogy is a good one. The wall has been built up over a long time. If your marriage is meant to be saved, it will only come down brick by brick.





HCH said:


> Well...patience has not been my strong suit.
> 
> She continues to flip flop. She continues to do things which do not seem to be the things that the woman I married would be doing at this point. She will seem like she's coming around, only to follow it up with a dagger in my back. "I'm hopeful." "I think it may be too late" "I want it to be great again" "I don't think we are right for each other" Back and forth back and forth...
> 
> So, I put it all on the line. I've said that I will ride this until the end of days if she wants me to. I told her though that I needed her to tell me that she wants me to remain invested in this marriage and continue to work towards saving it. If she couldn't tell me that , then I was going to move on. I received what appeared to me, to be a very confused email response, but at the end it stated, "I don't think we should be together anymore."
> 
> Now my ring has come off and I am starting to live my life as a single man for the first time in over 20 years. I was kind and polite. I went over to the house and told her that I wanted to, face to face, say that I was sorry for any and everything that I did that led to this. I gave her a good long hug and left.
> 
> Since that moment, all communication has been lighthearted. The normal day to day, friendly, stuff has reemerged. There is banter that hadn't been there in 9 months. I all but told her that I was finished. I did say that I am still in love and that will take a long long time to go away (if it ever does). I told her that I was finished "trying" I was finished doing the things that she told me she needed me to do because no matter how hard I worked, nothing changed. In fact things had become worse. I told her, "I give up. I hope you find the happiness that you're looking for."
> 
> I feel like this is kind of (in a way) the 180 thing everyone talks about. She didn't say, "NO! Don't give up!" But a light has come on. I don't think it's the light I was looking for, but all of a sudden she seems to really "like" me again. This was not the reaction I was trying to get. In fact, I thought the relationship would completely deteriorate. It didn't. It's like a weight has been lifted from her and she's coming out of a fog. I love seeing it if only for her well being. She had become someone that I couldn't even recognize.
> 
> Now, I am not holding my breath for reconciliation. In fact, at this point, even if she decided to "come back", it would take some heavy lifting from her to convince me. I actually am relieved to have some sort of a direction instead of being in the limbo that I was in. But, has anyone seen this reaction before? Is this a common thing in certain situations? Is she just so thrilled to have me off of her back or did my "180" make her see things differently? It's beautiful whatever it is. It makes day to day life SO much easier. I just wonder what it means.


Wow, I can't believe how similar our wife's really are. My wife and I are separated but living under the same roof. One minute she will give hope and treat you like she cares and the next she will dash that hope and treat you like you mean nothing to her and when she does that your heart just sinks and I'm overcome with an anxiety attack (but really try not to show it). 

Like me you really want to know what direction you are headed, I know I can live without my wife, if it comes to it, but I also have the guilt and pressure knowing that my kids will suffer because of it

My wife also wants her space and wants "time to heal" but as far as us go and our relationship I don't think she knows what she wants. She has said our marriage is over but she wants to "maybe" try and again in the future, probably in a year or to when she has overcome her resentment, so we are starting from a clean slate.

I really hate this feeling of being in limbo and like someone else said I just want to feel the ground beneath my feet again whichever way she wants to go. I have owned all my s&@t that I have bought into our marriage, I have also just dealt with all my resentment towards her (as I know it wasn't going to kill our marriage). I hate the fact that she won't own any of her s&@t that made our marriage bad and the fact that her resentment is so much more important and mine meant nothing or wasn't important.

Anyway, I have tried hard to keep a happy face and not put any pressure on her, but I probably made a mistake that I said that "I love you and I don't care what it takes or how long it takes to get my family back together, I'll do it and I'll just keep working on myself until she decides what she wants to do". While I've changed alot and she has noticed these changes, I think its probably time to do a real 180 and start detaching from her and not let her know that "I love her" and that I'll be a viable option for her, incase she realizes she doesn't like being single parent or alone. She has always been indecisive and can never make up her mind on what she wants, (be it what brand/model of new car she wants, colour she wants to paint the house, breed/type of dog she wants, what she should tell someone, school to send the kids etc, etc).

She just left this morning to take the kids on a weeks holiday and I'm stuck at home by myself. I just hope she has a long/hard think what she wants to do.

Sorry OP to jack your thread, just wanted to let you know, your not going through the same thing alone.


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