# How do I get evidence at the workplace?



## marcel kittel (Jan 27, 2015)

My WW had at least an extended EA two years ago with a coworker. She has a history of relationships with coworkers that don't quite rise to the level of "fire", but there's been plenty of smoke. The only time she admitted inappropriate behavior was due to the OM's wife calling me and revealing the details. We have moved 1300 miles away from the OM, and the wife doesn't travel without me, so I'm not worried about him.

I thought I had moved past the affair and started to trust her again. For 2 years, there has been no evidence of extramarital activity...at least not the kind of evidence that she left last time. There are no texts from her phone according to phone bills. I can't find any emails from the account I'm aware of. So, I had kind of allowed a trust to redevelop.

But over the last several weeks, our relationship has really soured, culminating in her consulting a divorce attorney. We've been fighting a ton and I get the sense that the fights are out of proportion to the causes. She has accused me of cheating (I have not, not in any way). Several other things seem off, which taken alone wouldn't bother me, but taken together raise a red flag:
1. sex frequency has dropped off a cliff.
2. she's shaving the area very regularly (used to do it 2x a year and it was always a sex party that night). now it's just because she "can't stand it". 
3. crazy fights over small things
4. suddenly the job I've had for 2 years is inadequate
5. lost a bunch of weight, colored the hair, joined a pilates studio
6. accusing me of cheating


I'm not certain she is or convinced that she isn't. If there's another affair, I am totally at peace with a quick divorce. The problem is that I'm not at all satisfied with the lack of texts/calls/emails. If she's doing this, it's happening during working hours and/or via a burner phone and secret email account. 

So how does one get evidence of a workplace affair?


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Hire a PI to follow her around for a few days. It shouldn't take long to catch them going somewhere if it is indeed an affair. It's a small price to pay for quick peace of mind.

Also consider putting a GPS tracker on her car. That way, if she turns her phone off you can still track her movements.

Sorry you're here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

marcel kittel said:


> My WW had at least an extended EA two years ago with a coworker. She has a history of relationships with coworkers that don't quite rise to the level of "fire", but there's been plenty of smoke. The only time she admitted inappropriate behavior was due to the OM's wife calling me and revealing the details. We have moved 1300 miles away from the OM, and the wife doesn't travel without me, so I'm not worried about him.
> 
> I thought I had moved past the affair and started to trust her again. For 2 years, there has been no evidence of extramarital activity...at least not the kind of evidence that she left last time. There are no texts from her phone according to phone bills. I can't find any emails from the account I'm aware of. So, I had kind of allowed a trust to redevelop.
> 
> ...


Does she use a personal computer at home?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Oh, So many red flags it's like she is a fire marshall at a giant red flag parade and convention.

You might need to file for divorce. Sorry.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

If she's not cheating, she is doing a good job at pretending. 

Checklist 1-6 is, as you know, right out the handbook. The most telling is seeking a divorce or separation and you are blindsided. Bottom line, most women would not leave you that suddenly without having another man to take your place. 

CSI... If you can get access to her work computer, you may be able to Recover the Deleted Folder in Micro. Office, just use the Folders option, assuming she hasn't permanently deleted them. 2nd, you can download Office archive files. *.pst. Most Network IT types periodically archive these files to the share drive.


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

Where theres smoke theres fire. A hidden VAR in her car should soon unearth the truth.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Top link in my signature. I would avoid touching the work computer if it does not belong to you or her.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Sorry what do you actually mean about 

2x year sex party?


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## Age (Jan 11, 2015)

It sounds like she keeps comparing you to someone else and getting disappointed. The question is who? I would totally spy if for you maybe you have a friend or family member that she doesn't know at all so they can spy on her. But definitely i agree hire a defective. Does she go to the gym to do pilates? maybe she met someone there?
Yeah that isn't right for you to have to live in constant worry. Is My Wife Cheating At Work? | Coworker Affair

Call her then pretend to hang up maybe she won't notice that it didn't hang up then you might be able to hear her interactions at work.
here is a website to get some spy equipment http://www.gadgetsandgear.com/real-spy-gear-gadgets-for-sale.html


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

what kind of job does she have? What kind of access to her workplace to you have? 

Definitely keylog your computers (all of them) because if it is a secret email account, she will leave a trail to it (if she accesses it from home) and you can then access it. You can also openDNS your router from home and see where she is visiting online, sniff the IP traffic.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

It's tough to get evidence at work. Close to impossible unless you have an alie there. Your best bet is to monitor her conventionally on her personal communication devices (VAR in her car, keylogger on her home computer, GPS tracker on her car, spyware on her cell, checking her cell phone bill). Chances are, if she's having an affair they will try to contact each other outside of work at some point. They usually can't resist.

If she can log into her work e-mail from home, the keylogger will pick up her password and log-in ID.

Patience and due diligence.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

If it is not a secure government facility or the like, a Pen VAR might get you something too.


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## ReidWright (May 15, 2014)

marcel kittel said:


> There are no texts from her phone according to phone bills.


if it's an iphone, then imessages won't show up on the phone bills. 

Also, there are tons of apps for messaging that won't show up (snapchat, kik, viber, whatsapp, and games with chat features)


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

G.J. said:


> Sorry what do you actually mean about
> 
> 2x year sex party?


Yeah, I kind of let that slide by. Sex Party?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I think you can get I messages from a wonder share program. You can get a great pen var from brick house security on the web.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Have a PI carefully find out about her coworkers. Maybe they go out to a bar after work, or at lunch.

If the PI can watch, he or she might be able to get the goods.

Sometimes a woman PI can get her male co-workers to talk.

(hopefully not the OM)


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

marcel kittel said:


> My WW had at least an extended EA two years ago with a coworker. She has a history of relationships with coworkers that don't quite rise to the level of "fire", but there's been plenty of smoke. The only time she admitted inappropriate behavior was due to the OM's wife calling me and revealing the details. We have moved 1300 miles away from the OM, and the wife doesn't travel without me, so I'm not worried about him.
> 
> I thought I had moved past the affair and started to trust her again. For 2 years, there has been no evidence of extramarital activity...at least not the kind of evidence that she left last time. There are no texts from her phone according to phone bills. I can't find any emails from the account I'm aware of. So, I had kind of allowed a trust to redevelop.
> 
> ...


The short answer is that you don't. No workplace is going to allow a private individual to snoop around or spy , the risk of litigation is too great. We had a similar situation at a plant that I was manager of. A private investigator approached the office asking questions about an employee and his relationships to other workers. He was shown the door from the outside. He then attempted to sit in the parking lot and take pictures. He was arrested and charged with trespass.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

RWB said:


> If she's not cheating, she is doing a good job at pretending.
> 
> Checklist 1-6 is, as you know, right out the handbook. The most telling is seeking a divorce or separation and you are blindsided. Bottom line, most women would not leave you that suddenly without having another man to take your place.
> 
> CSI... If you can get access to her work computer, you may be able to Recover the Deleted Folder in Micro. Office, just use the Folders option, assuming she hasn't permanently deleted them. 2nd, you can download Office archive files. *.pst. Most Network IT types periodically archive these files to the share drive.


Do NOT attempt to get into her work computer. This could be a felony, and you could end up in the slammer.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I will put this as forcefully as I can. Any attempt at all, to involve her workplace is an incredibly bad idea, and will more likely involve YOU in very serious legal problems. Think about it. With the threat of litigation, workplace shootings, terrorist threats, and industrial espionage, Corporations and Law enforcement officials view such activity with great concern, and will almost certainly do very bad things to you..


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> The short answer is that you don't. No workplace is going to allow a private individual to snoop around or spy , the risk of litigation is too great. We had a similar situation at a plant that I was manager of. A private investigator approached the office asking questions about an employee and his relationships to other workers. He was shown the door from the outside. He then attempted to sit in the parking lot and take pictures. He was arrested and charged with trespass.


Sounds like this was someone playing PI and not a professional.

Licensed PIs are usually very discreet, and it shouldn't be that easy to "spot" them. Also, they know very well that video and picture evidence can be obtained only in public places and not in private property.

If OP can afford it, a professional PI might be the only way to get information in this case.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

italianjob said:


> Sounds like this was someone playing PI and not a professional.
> 
> Licensed PIs are usually very discreet, and it shouldn't be that easy to "spot" them. Also, they know very well that video and picture evidence can be obtained only in public places and not in private property.
> 
> If OP can afford it, a professional PI might be the only way to get information in this case.


You don't understand. It is AGAINST THE LAW to spy on a citizen in the workplace. Any evidence gathered would be inadmissible, and the PI would, at least, lose his license, and also be guilty of a felony. And possibly the person who hired him, as well. This isn't like TV, spying in the workplace is a serious crime. Actually, it is several serious crimes.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> I will put this as forcefully as I can. Any attempt at all, to involve her workplace is an incredibly bad idea, and will more likely involve YOU in very serious legal problems. Think about it. With the threat of litigation, workplace shootings, terrorist threats, and industrial espionage, Corporations and Law enforcement officials view such activity with great concern, and will almost certainly do very bad things to you..


This is actually only partially true. You will get in serious trouble if you try to break into electronic devices that are property of the company, if you try to obtain inside documentation that's not meant for the public or if you trespass private property (i.e. if you wait in the parking lot outside her office and that area is private property, you're breaking the law, if it's a public area you're not breaking any law).
So, keeping an eye on her might be risky or not, a lot depends on the logistics and the security level involved in her job (there's obviously a difference if she is a high level employee in a government facility or a waitress at the "Cheesecake Factory")


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> You don't understand. It is AGAINST THE LAW to spy on a citizen in the workplace. Any evidence gathered would be inadmissible, and the PI would, at least, lose his license, and also be guilty of a felony. And possibly the person who hired him, as well. This isn't like TV, spying in the workplace is a serious crime.


No, I understand it perfectly. It is against the law IN the workplace and in any private property area. It is not against the law, for a licensed PI, to gather picture or video evidence in any public area.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

My advise to the OP is to not even think of doing anything in her workplace. You will regret it.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> My advise to the OP is to not even think of doing anything in her workplace. You will regret it.


I don't think he would be doing anything IN the workplace, that would be obviously trouble.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

OP, do you ever meet up with her work buddies? Socially that is? You could watch their body language when you're there. Do they behave differently that what would be normal? Maybe uncomfortable? Office gossips may even hint to you about rumors.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Locke.Stratos said:


> I think he means that she'd shave her pubic region twice a year and that they'd have wild/passionate sex afterwards. Now she shaves regulary and it's not for the benefit of them having sex.


*It's only natural to assume that if the old lady, out of the ordinary, is fastideouly starting to keep "the playground" neat and tidy, and greatly provided that her H has not, in any way, been extended an engraved invitation to go play there; well then by golly, somebody certainly has!

After all, that playground isn't usually intricately groomed for one's health!*


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Its possible but unlikely she is actually having sex at work. We have had those here though.

More likely they go out to "lunch", take off early, go in early, take time off, or meet on girls night out.

If she has a smart phone turn on the find my phone feature. Otherwise GPS her car. Var, Sony appx $60 model at bestbuy, Costco, Walmart, etc, in her car, in the house where she goes to talk and when you're not at home.

Var's usually catch them in a two or three days. A pen var for her purse costs about $70 dollars and works great and works as a real pen.

Since this isn't her first rodeo and what she is doing is obvious how come you haven't just filed or told her you're divorcing her. She's telling you who she is by her actions, pay attention and accept she's broken.

Have you read the two books linked to below? Especially mmslp?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

At this point you need to Google serial cheater. There is little chance of fixing this.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Ugh, I hate these workplace affairs, and a PA at that. She's obviously shaving her kitty for some OM, probably her boss or other manager that makes more money than the OP. I would check her paystub or pay statement, and he will most likely find that there's missing vacation days or time off. 

Many cheaters will pretend to go to work, and then spend the day with their affair partner. There's another thread here where the WW was playing hookie from work with the OM. I've seen that in real life too.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Marcel, sorry to have you here. Here are my observations:


There are far too many red flags (shaving, no sex, blaming you, wanting a divorce, losing weight, dressing more attractively, saying that your job and you are inadequate etc) here to suggest that she might be behaving inappropriately. She definitely is.


Why do you think that her first affair wasn't physical and was an EA only ? This does not appear to be her first rodeo as others have pointed out and as you have pointed out too. She displays all the hallmarks of a serial cheater.


You did not handle the first time that you caught her properly. You should have gone for the jugular until you had all the facts and had her on her knees begging for forgiveness and wanting to come back (and with all the truth and facts disclosed to you).


She wants a divorce - really ??? Why do you not just give her one. Why are you trying to save this "marriage" ? I know that you will say that you love her etc but she is lying to you, disrespecting you and appears to have checked out of this marriage. So give her what she wants.


Collect evidence by all means. The VARs and spying on her (PI) appear to be your best options. Do not confront until you have solid evidence and never tell her your sources. Even if you (by some miracle) reconcile. The evidence will give you closure, may assist you in the D process and will maybe stop her from slandering you and blaming it all on you.


Start getting your ducks in a row - attorney, separation of funds, evidence gathering to be followed by full exposure, improved health and mind (the 180), filing for divorce etc. Be ready to lose her completely even if you want to reconcile later (you can always stop the divorce process). This marriage should have been over two years ago. Do not show any weakness whatsoever as you go forward.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Locke.Stratos said:


> I think he means that she'd shave her pubic region twice a year and that they'd have wild/passionate sex afterwards. Now she shaves regulary and it's not for the benefit of them having sex.


Well, not for his benefit anyway...


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## marcel kittel (Jan 27, 2015)

*Sorry for the absence*

Sorry for the absence, but for some reason I get an error message when I try to log in on my tablet. I don't really use a laptop much anymore.

Anyway, to answer a few questions:
1. Regarding the "sex party" reference, yes, it used to be a big deal and we would have nice, nice relations that night. It has always been like a gesture toward me. We aren't swingers. I didn't mean to cause confusion.
2. I bought the VAR recorder yesterday and have been setting it up. It's more involved than I thought, and I want to get it right without its being discovered. I will place it tonight. I'm assuming there's a burning phone somewhere in her vehicle and I don't want my VAR to be discovered while she's retrieving her second phone.
3. She is a nurse at the VA. I have no intention of monitoring her inside that facility in any way. I'm not going to break any laws. No worries there.
4. I don't know any of her coworkers. She's only been there for about 9 months.
5. There's no after work socializing or girls nights out. We have 3 kids and we both work all day. If something is happening, it's at work. It happens. She's told me stories about other VA employees hooking up in various locations (bathrooms, doctors' sleep rooms, etc.). I'm at a loss on how to get info if that's happening.

Question: have any of you had a truly reformed spouse? I'm hoping I'm just paranoid and the VAR is going to reveal only a bunch of boring conversations with me or her mother on the other side. I really can't stand the thought of my wife's being an irredeemable skank. I'll accept it if it's the case, but still.

ETA a couple of responses to more recent posts...
-I'm not certain that the EA wasn't a PA. It still bothers me that I will never know for sure. I did the best I could with it after I confronted. The OM's wife called me one morning and I blew a gasket and confronted my wife within 10 minutes. I didn't know this place existed until a day or two later. From that time on, I did all the recommended things, but the cat was out of the bag and I couldn't find any evidence of past PA.
-I will have to do a little snooping on the vacation time. That's an excellent thought. My memory sucks, though, and I doubt that I will be able to remember every day she took off. Like I said, we have kids and she takes sick days for them sometimes.


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## imjustwatching (Jul 8, 2014)

You could know for sure bu the way. ask her to take a poly?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Many cheaters aren't caught. They are either very careful or very lucky. Or both. My ex-husband never changed. There were no red flags. I was just fortunate when I caught him both times. Your wife obviously has red flags but confirming she's cheating can be tough. Can you live with not knowing if it comes to that?

And, yes, there are posters with a reformed spouse. However, you don't truly know until the natural end of the marriage if your spouse will cheat again or not. You hope they won't but you aren't them. That's part of living with someone who has cheated. At some point you have to decide to trust (up to a certain point) or not. And that's hard.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

marcel kittel said:


> My WW had at least an extended EA two years ago with a coworker. She has a history of relationships with coworkers that don't quite rise to the level of "fire", but there's been plenty of smoke. The only time she admitted inappropriate behavior was due to the OM's wife calling me and revealing the details. We have moved 1300 miles away from the OM, and the wife doesn't travel without me, so I'm not worried about him.
> 
> I thought I had moved past the affair and started to trust her again. For 2 years, there has been no evidence of extramarital activity...at least not the kind of evidence that she left last time. There are no texts from her phone according to phone bills. I can't find any emails from the account I'm aware of. So, I had kind of allowed a trust to redevelop.
> 
> ...


So the sex party ref was about the two times in the past year you've had sex

Gosh if your down to 2x in 2 years there is no intimate bonding between you and its no wonder she looks on you as a room mate

This is going to be so hard to discover her affair as they can get it on at work every day and there's no real way for you to catch her out other than a co worker telling you

*Nurses poll 3rd in the top adulterous profession's*

One way not mentioned is to try asking her who doesn't like her at work in a conversation some time when your talking generally about her work

Pre cursor could be to say that x at your place is a pain in the butt as she/he is always pulling me down to others then ask her about anyone like that at her place

If you get a name then you can go ask them and they MIGHT tell you some bits of information

If every thing fails and you finally have no way to find out anything else and want to find out *no matter what* then you can confront and interrogate her the way *I did* with my wife *which worked* BUT to do it properly it may split you up


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## ReidWright (May 15, 2014)

*Re: Sorry for the absence*



marcel kittel said:


> 3. She is a nurse at the VA. I have no intention of monitoring her inside that facility in any way. I'm not going to break any laws. No worries there.
> 4. I don't know any of her coworkers. She's only been there for about 9 months.


Does she have a fixed lunch time? Does she eat in the public (open to visitors) hospital cafeteria? or leave the hospital? 

Can you 'stop by' to join her for lunch? Or have someone she doesn't know eat lunch in there one day to see who she's eating with? 

maybe the var can confirm if she leaves the grounds for 'lunch'.

make sure the var has all the lights and beeps turned off (see the manual).


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## marcel kittel (Jan 27, 2015)

G.J. said:


> So the sex party ref was about the two times in the past year you've had sex
> 
> Gosh if your down to 2x in 2 years there is no intimate bonding between you and its no wonder she looks on you as a room mate


No, we were very regular for a long stretch. Like 2x a week. If it were 2x a year, I might cheat. jk (maybe)

The drop off has been in the last 6 weeks. It still happens, but the frequency is more like 2x/month now.

Not defending, I just don't want to paint an inaccurate picture.

Re: lunch, she eats in the cafeteria in the hospital, I'm told. I'm definitely going with the VAR starting tonight. I really thinks it's all I can do given the circumstances. The VA isn't going to tolerate a PI on campus. I think I'm going to have to just gather evidence and let her out herself if something's going on.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

marcel kittel said:


> No, we were very regular for a long stretch. Like 2x a week. If it were 2x a year, I might cheat. jk (maybe)
> 
> The drop off has been in the last 6 weeks. It still happens, but the frequency is more like 2x/month now.
> 
> ...


Talk to a reputable P.I. company and ask them what they would do for you

If they want to go into VA that's up to them


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> Ugh, I hate these workplace affairs, and a PA at that. She's obviously shaving her kitty for some OM, probably her boss or other manager that makes more money than the OP. I would check her paystub or pay statement, and he will most likely find that there's missing vacation days or time off.
> 
> Many cheaters will pretend to go to work, and then spend the day with their affair partner. There's another thread here where the WW was playing hookie from work with the OM. I've seen that in real life too.


Lets not put the cart before the horse, here. A hairless kitty is not evidence of infidelity. If it were so, most every young woman would be a cheater. Shaving or waxing is all the rage, now, and many women do it. Even women who didn't do it before. My GF does it , and she's not a cheater. To assume that she is making personal improvements just to please a lover, is a stretch. Maybe she just wants to feel better about herself.
OP, exactly what actual EVIDENCE do you have that she is cheating?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

G.J. said:


> Talk to a reputable P.I. company and ask them what they would do for you
> 
> If they want to go into VA that's up to them


As a veteran, I can tell you that the Government will not tolerate any, repeat, any spying . Nor would any other Government facility. I seriously doubt that any reputable Investigation company would even think about it. If you spy in a Government facility.....you will go to jail. It's that simple.


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## marcel kittel (Jan 27, 2015)

Rookie4 said:


> OP, exactly what actual EVIDENCE do you have that she is cheating?


None, yet. And I hope I can satisfy myself that you are correct. Like I said in my first post, it's the totality of the circumstances that raise the red flag, not just the shaving.

I want you to be correct, Rookie.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Lets not put the cart before the horse, here. A hairless kitty is not evidence of infidelity. If it were so, most every young woman would be a cheater. Shaving or waxing is all the rage, now, and many women do it. Even women who didn't do it before. My GF does it , and she's not a cheater. To assume that she is making personal improvements just to please a lover, is a stretch. Maybe she just wants to feel better about herself.
> OP, exactly what actual EVIDENCE do you have that she is cheating?



Here's a few that *POINT *to cheating

1. sex frequency has dropped off a cliff.
2. she's shaving the area very regularly (used to do it 2x a year and it was always a sex party that night). now it's just because she "can't stand it". 
3. crazy fights over small things
4. suddenly the job I've had for 2 years is inadequate
5. lost a bunch of weight, colored the hair, joined a pilates studio
6. accusing me of cheating

perhaps OP will provide more red flags over the next few days


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> As a veteran, I can tell you that the Government will not tolerate any, repeat, any spying . Nor would any other Government facility. I seriously doubt that any reputable Investigation company would even think about it. If you spy in a Government facility.....you will go to jail. It's that simple.


As I said *UP TO THEM*


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

marcel kittel said:


> My WW had at least an extended EA two years ago with a coworker. She has a history of relationships with coworkers that don't quite rise to the level of "fire", but there's been plenty of smoke. The only time she admitted inappropriate behavior was due to the OM's wife calling me and revealing the details. We have moved 1300 miles away from the OM, and the wife doesn't travel without me, so I'm not worried about him.
> 
> I thought I had moved past the affair and started to trust her again. For 2 years, there has been no evidence of extramarital activity...at least not the kind of evidence that she left last time. There are no texts from her phone according to phone bills. I can't find any emails from the account I'm aware of. So, I had kind of allowed a trust to redevelop.
> 
> ...


My question is why are you fighting to stay with her when she's proven again that she's not happy in the marriage. It's very important to understand that you cannot make her love you and trying to do that goes to very bad places every time. Life is just too short to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

marcel kittel said:


> No, we were very regular for a long stretch. Like 2x a week. If it were 2x a year, I might cheat. jk (maybe)
> 
> The drop off has been in the last 6 weeks. It still happens, but the frequency is more like 2x/month now.
> 
> ...


Marcel, my advice is to do your homework. Take the time to learn where your W goes, and who she is with, when she isn't at work. You don't have to rely on gadgets and PI's and all of that crap. What you need to do, is be aware of what is happening, communicate your concerns to your wife, and learn all you can. Do this BEFORE you accuse her of anything.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

G.J. said:


> As I said *UP TO THEM*


Advising an OP to break the law is a terrible idea. If a PI company is willing to break the law... then it isn't a reputable company.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Advising an OP to break the law is a terrible idea. If a PI company is willing to break the law... then it isn't a reputable company.


Can you re read were I said for him to break the law ???

I said *its UP TO THE P.I. company*
Please don't twist


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> My question is why are you fighting to stay with her when she's proven again that she's not happy in the marriage. It's very important to understand that you cannot make her love you and trying to do that goes to very bad places every time. Life is just too short to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you.


Thundarr is right. You really should have a "come to Jesus" talk with your wife. Communicate your concerns, find out hers, and decide where the marriage is going. Do this BEFORE you go off the deep end.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

G.J. said:


> Can you re read were I said for him to break the law ???
> 
> I said *its UP TO THE P.I. company*
> Please don't twist


No. If the company breaks the law, it is liable....and so is the client. I have seen this happen too many times. That is why no reputable company will do it.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> No. If the company breaks the law, it is liable....and so is the client. I have seen this happen too many times. That is why no reputable company will do it.


Please link where you have seen a client liable for hiring a PI.I. company that broke the law
As if that's the case I think a lot of us need to know this

Add
not accidents caused there by


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

*Re: Sorry for the absence*



marcel kittel said:


> 2. I bought the VAR recorder yesterday and have been setting it up. It's more involved than I thought, and I want to get it right without its being discovered. I will place it tonight. I'm assuming there's a burning phone somewhere in her vehicle and I don't want my VAR to be discovered while she's retrieving her second phone.


Do a thorough search of her vehicle, preferably while she's asleep. Many people use industrial strength velcro, and velcro the VAR under the driver's seat. Don't just slip the VAR under the seat, it could slip out and/or be discovered easily. If you use tape, use Gorilla duct tape. The important thing is to have it secure. If its secure under the seat, then it will have less chance of being discovered.



marcel kittel said:


> 5. There's no after work socializing or girls nights out. We have 3 kids and we both work all day. If something is happening, it's at work. It happens. She's told me stories about other VA employees hooking up in various locations (bathrooms, doctors' sleep rooms, etc.). I'm at a loss on how to get info if that's happening.


That's just sad, but its not unheard of. Having quickies in bathrooms, sleep rooms, etc, is not unheard of when nurses are having workplace affairs. They may not even need to get a hotel room or meet outside of work for their sex. However...shaving her kitty shows that she wants OM to see it, and that means that do have to meet somewhere else besides work to have their hot, steamy, intense affair sex.



marcel kittel said:


> -I'm not certain that the EA wasn't a PA. It still bothers me that I will never know for sure. I did the best I could with it after I confronted.


Well, she's not shaving her kitty for you, that's for sure. What other reason would there be to shave her kitty except for an OM? Usually, shaved kitty=PA when combined with all the other RED flags.



marcel kittel said:


> -I will have to do a little snooping on the vacation time. That's an excellent thought. My memory sucks, though, and I doubt that I will be able to remember every day she took off. Like I said, we have kids and she takes sick days for them sometimes.


I have kids too, but its not going to be that many days. You will be able to see if she's taking too many vacation days off.

Also, you can buy a GPS tracking device. Its not foolproof, because the OM may be the one taking her somewhere in his vehicle, but at least its a shot and better than nothing.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

G.J. said:


> Please link where you have seen a client liable for hiring a PI.I. company that broke the law
> As if that's the case I think a lot of us need to know this


You really don't understand, do you? Link You? No, that's not going to happen. If I were to "link you', THAT WOULD BE BREAKING THE LAW. I cannot discus criminal cases . Take my word for it, Marcel, you don't want to do this.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> You really don't understand, do you? Link You? No, that's not going to happen. If I were to "link you', THAT WOULD BE BREAKING THE LAW. I cannot discus criminal cases . Take my word for it, Marcel, you don't want to do this.


oh plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :sleeping:

guess we wont know for sure then......oh wait we take your word


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

*Re: Sorry for the absence*



lordmayhem said:


> Do a thorough search of her vehicle, preferably while she's asleep. Many people use industrial strength velcro, and velcro the VAR under the driver's seat. Don't just slip the VAR under the seat, it could slip out and/or be discovered easily. If you use tape, use Gorilla duct tape. The important thing is to have it secure. If its secure under the seat, then it will have less chance of being discovered.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Much of what you say, LMH , is good advice, except about the shaven kitty. You are too old school. A lot, perhaps even a majority of women will shave or wax. It is the fashionable thing to do. Since my divorce, I've seen more shaven or trimmed kitties, than otherwise. And we all know that most women are slaves to fashion.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Rookie, those were women expecting someone to be looking at it though, right? They didn't just shave it so no one could see it.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> Rookie, those were women expecting someone to be looking at it though, right? They didn't just shave it so no one could see it.


Every women I've known shaved for the guy

If they leave it for a couple of days it gets ichy


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

one of the purpose of hiring a licensed PI is so the suspecting spouse does not brake the law.
a good reputable license PI know the laws in his or her state (the licenses are state by state).
The only way the client would be held liable is if he or she knew (with proof) that the PI is braking the law.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

G.J. said:


> oh plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :sleeping:
> 
> guess we wont know for sure then......oh wait we take your word


Give it up its just the same hyjack over and over


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Tasorundo said:


> Rookie, those were women expecting someone to be looking at it though, right? They didn't just shave it so no one could see it.


Did you ever hear of bathing suits? And many women say it feels better to shave. I don't claim to understand it, but there it is. You don't have to believe me...ask women, yourself. The majority will say that they trim or shave or wax. It is the fashionable thing to do.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Most women get bikini waxes in December/January, right before they hit the beach!


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

convert said:


> one of the purpose of hiring a licensed PI is so the suspecting spouse does not brake the law.
> a good reputable license PI know the laws in his or her state (the licenses are state by state).
> The only way the client would be held liable is if he or she knew (with proof) that the PI is braking the law.


 You are right, Convert. Which is the reason that no reputable PI firm would even consider it. The number of Privacy, Industrial , and Civil Rights laws would fill a library. I can tell you from experience, that it is practically impossible to LEGALLY spy in the workplace.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Tasorundo said:


> Most women get bikini waxes in December/January, right before they hit the beach!


I don't care!! All I'm saying is that there are other reasons for a woman to wax or shave....besides cheating.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> You are right, Convert. Which is the reason that no reputable PI firm would even consider it. The number of Privacy, Industrial , and Civil Rights laws would fill a library. I can tell you from experience, that it is practically impossible to LEGALLY spy in the workplace.


yea I think the only ones that can legally spy (for security and safety reasons) in the work place would be the company owner (within reason) and in some cases that still might be braking the law.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> I don't care!! All I'm saying is that there are other reasons for a woman to wax or shave....besides cheating.


True, but it's a change in behavior nonetheless. Couple that w/ _everything else_ that OP mentioned in his initial post, and it's pretty clear that he's dealing w/ a number of red flags.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

convert said:


> one of the purpose of hiring a licensed PI is so the suspecting spouse does not brake the law.
> a good reputable license PI know the laws in his or her state (the licenses are state by state).
> The only way the client would be held liable is if he or she knew (with proof) that the PI is braking the law.


So are we saying that if you hire a reputable P.I. company (as I suggested) you will/will not be held responsible ?

As I would like to see the case where a client was convicted for any offence (other than accident) attached to hiring a reputable P.I. Company ?

If so please link so I can verify for my own satisfaction as the advice we give we should be crystal clear, and I'm unaware of being held responsible if you hire a reputable P.I. Company


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

G.J. said:


> So are we saying that if you hire a reputable P.I. company (as I suggested) you will not be held responsible ?
> 
> As I would like to see the case where a client was convicted for any offence attached to hiring a reputable P.I. Company ?
> 
> If so please link so I can verify for my own satisfaction as the advice we give we should be crystal clear on and I'm unaware of being held responsible if you hire a reputable P.I. Company


I agree
the only way a client would be held liable is if he or she knew with proof that the PI broke the law.
I think that is one of the main reason for hiring a PI. 

the other reasons would be :
Time 
equipment
expert knowledge
ext.

although at 350 dollars or more a day
I am all for doing some of my own PI work (within the law, most of the time).


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

convert said:


> I agree
> the only way a client would be held liable is if he or she knew with proof that the PI broke the law.
> I think that is one of the main reason for hiring a PI.
> 
> ...


So if he hires a reputable P.I. Company and they want to go into VA that's up to them* which is what I originally said *

As which which reputable company would survive if their client became liable :scratchhead:


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> Most women get bikini waxes in December/January, right before they hit the beach!


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

G.J. said:


> So if he hires a reputable P.I. Company and they want to go into VA that's up to them* which is what I originally said *
> 
> As which which reputable company would survive if there client became liable :scratchhead:


yes,
i wasn't disagreeing with you

the biggest thing in hospitals is HIPPA (SP)

the Pi would probably not be able to take a camera or a recorder but he would probably be able to go to the cafeteria and observe and report back to client of what was seen


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> True, but it's a change in behavior nonetheless. Couple that w/ _everything else_ that OP mentioned in his initial post, and it's pretty clear that he's dealing w/ a number of red flags.


O.P.
Lots of decent avenues for you to go down on this thread


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> True, but it's a change in behavior nonetheless. Couple that w/ _everything else_ that OP mentioned in his initial post, and it's pretty clear that he's dealing w/ a number of red flags.


I agree, Gus. I was just pointing out that there are other reasons for a woman to shave her ******. but I do think that the OP should be concerned, and try to find out what gives.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

convert said:


> I agree
> the only way a client would be held liable is if he or she knew with proof that the PI broke the law.
> I think that is one of the main reason for hiring a PI.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. It is always better to work on the marriage yourself, instead of trusting your personal business to outsiders.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> I will put this as forcefully as I can. Any attempt at all, to involve her workplace is an incredibly bad idea, and will more likely involve YOU in very serious legal problems. Think about it. With the threat of litigation, workplace shootings, terrorist threats, and industrial espionage, Corporations and Law enforcement officials view such activity with great concern, and will almost certainly do very bad things to you..


Unless, of course, he got HR to help via a threat from a lawyer re the affair being allowed in the workplace which led to the breakdown of the marriage?

Also a threat of media coverage ("Why XYZ Corp. is bad for marriages, alleges heartbroken spouse") might get some degree of co-operation.

Also, if the employer is tipped off to the existence of an affair, this might tally with concerns they have with work performance of WS and POSOM/W?


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Are you guys friggin' serious about this PI discussion? Give it a rest or take it elsewhere.

None of the things she does in isolation is a red flag. But she has changed. And all of her changes are right out of the book. The shaving is a few pages. It's the book that looks bad.

This thread has got to hold some kind of record for threadjacking/ dead horse beating.

See what the VARS tell you then report back.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

convert said:


> yes,
> i wasn't disagreeing with you
> 
> the biggest thing in hospitals is HIPPA (SP)
> ...


A PI COULD go into the public areas of a workplace, BUT he would have to declare himself and his purpose to the management of the facility. Why? Because he is spying on an employee. Then, since the OP's wife works for the Federal Government, the management would HAVE to notify her that she is being investigated.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Unless, of course, he got HR to help via a threat from a lawyer re the affair being allowed in the workplace which led to the breakdown of the marriage?
> 
> Also a threat of media coverage ("Why XYZ Corp. is bad for marriages, alleges heartbroken spouse") might get some degree of co-operation.
> 
> Also, if the employer is tipped off to the existence of an affair, this might tally with concerns they have with work performance of WS and POSOM/W?


All of these things could happen, true, but they are all very public, and would not be able to be kept secret from the OP's wife. This would defeat the purpose of hiring a PI, in the first place. What good is a PI without secrecy? And believe me, NO COMPANY is going to spy on behalf of a private individual. You would get sued in a heartbeat.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

My advice still holds true, Marcel. Do the work yourself. Talk to your woman about the marriage and find out where she feels it is going. Notice where she goes and who she sees when not at work or at home. Don't rely on electronic junk or outside help.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> True, but it's a change in behavior nonetheless. Couple that w/ _everything else_ that OP mentioned in his initial post, and it's pretty clear that he's dealing w/ a number of red flags.


Having said ^that^, I'm going to side w/ Rookie and advise the OP to tread very lightly w/ respect to any sleuthing, snooping, spying, etc at his wife's workplace, which is both a government AND healthcare facility. The possibility that whatever methodology he -- or anyone else, for that matter -- would choose to employ could inadvertently result in an unintended disclosure of PHI to a 3rd party (i.e. a PI and/or himself) is simply too great a risk to take.

Trust me... _no one_ wants that kind of heat, and _any_ PI will tell him _EXACTLY_ that.

Marcel, does infidelity "matter" at all w/ respect to divorce (i.e. division of assets, custody of minor children, and/or whether or not spousal support is awarded) in your state? If not, you don't have much to lose by either (a) simply filing for divorce or (b) initiating a conversation w/ your wife regarding your concerns... which may lead to _one of you_ filing for divorce. If so, or if you just "need to know" (which is perfectly understandable), then I'd start w/ the following...

* Place a VAR in the car. Whether she's seeing someone from work, the gym, or the McDonald's down the street, there's bound to be something of value to be found in the car. Whether you uncover a conversation between her and a lover, her and a toxic friend, or nothing more than just her talking to herself, you'll hear _something_. Hell... for all you know, you might actually overhear her in the actual act of cheating on you. If you do, you'd be wise to take weightlifter's advice and stop listening as soon as you hear kissing, and then have a trusted friend listen to the rest in order to verify your findings.

Either way, VAR the car. See weightlifter's "Standard Evidence" thread for additional instructions w/ respect to VAR selection (Sony VARs are highly recommended), configuration, and placement.

* Install a keylogger (WebWatcher and Spector Pro are favorites) on any _personal_ computer that she could reasonably be expected to use while at home. *Do NOT touch any computer that has been issued to her by her employer for work purposes.* Unless she's a nurse manager, educator, informaticist, or works in administration, she probably doesn't bring home a computer at all. Either way, don't touch _anything_ that she brings home for work. *TRUST ME ON THIS.*

* Open a personal OpenDNS account and configure your home's router to use their servers for name resolution services. Don't configure any parental controls... just monitoring. Instructions can be found here...

https://www.opendns.com/home-internet-security/

* Consider using recovery software w/ your wife's phone in order to retrieve any deleted texts, pics, call history, etc. Some tools will even retrieve data sent and received via apps like SnapChat, WhatsApp, etc. If, however, your wife's phone is something that has been issued to her by her employer (again, doubtful), DON'T DO IT.

Additional thoughts...

* Polygraphs aren't very reliable, but observing a WS's reactions once a poly is mentioned can be absolutely invaluable. If you decide to mention a poly, don't do so prior to having at least some of the aforementioned measures in place... _*especially* the keylogger_. Seeing a Google search for "how to beat a polygraph" in your wife's search history will tell you pretty much everything that you need to know.

* Be aware that, due to your wife's job, should you indeed find the "smoking gun" that you're hoping for, you may not be able to disclose either what you discover or _how_ you discovered it, at least not w/o making yourself vulnerable to litigation. Again, _tread carefully_.

More questions...

What kind of _personal_ computer/smartphone/tablet (if any) does your wife use?

Of the following, what do you currently have?

Passwords to your wife's _personal_ electronic devices (laptop/desktop computer, tablet, smartphone, etc)
Passwords to your wife's _personal_ e-mail accounts
Passwords to your wife's social media accounts
Passwords to any Google Play / Apple iTunes/iCloud account that your wife might have

What kind of vehicle does your wife drive?

OK... that's enough for now. I'm feeling pretty creepy.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Having said ^that^, I'm going to side w/ Rookie and advise the OP to tread very lightly w/ respect to any sleuthing, snooping, spying, etc at his wife's workplace, which is both a government AND healthcare facility. The possibility that whatever methodology he -- or anyone else, for that matter -- would choose to employ could inadvertently result in an unintended disclosure of PHI to a 3rd party (i.e. a PI and/or himself) is simply too great a risk to take.
> 
> Trust me... _no one_ wants that kind of heat, and _any_ PI will tell him _EXACTLY_ that.
> 
> ...


I agree with Gus Polinski on just about everything, except the electronic part. I think you need to have a "heart to heart" talk with your wife about the marriage....first. Then escalate by trying to discover her actions and acquaintences by observation, home computer and billing checks, and questioning. Only after you have exhausted all other means, should you consider the expense of electronic gadgets or PI's.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

*Re: Sorry for the absence*



italianjob said:


> @Rookie :
> Actually, the OP stated, pages ago, he has no intention of spying her at her workplace.


That is a very good idea. I hope that he will stick to it and not allow anyone to convince him otherwise.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> I agree with Gus Polinski on just about everything, except the electronic part. I think you need to have a "heart to heart" talk with your wife about the marriage....first. Then escalate by trying to discover her actions and acquaintences by observation, home computer and billing checks, and questioning. Only after you have exhausted all other means, should you consider the expense of electronic gadgets or PI's.


Rookie... come on, man. Read what he's written. She'll just take that sh*t underground, and then it will be all the more difficult for him to find _anything_.

Then again, if he doesn't feel like he just "needs to know" (and, honestly, my read on him is that he does), then sure... initiate the talk first, and then take it from there.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

G.J. said:


> Talk to a reputable P.I. company and ask them what they would do for you
> 
> If they want to go into VA that's up to them


You did.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Rookie... come on, man. Read what he's written. She'll just take that sh*t underground, and then it will be all the more difficult for him to find _anything_.
> 
> Then again, if he doesn't feel like he just "needs to know" (and, honestly, my read on him is that he does), then sure... initiate the talk first, and then take it from there.


I agree that it is possible that she will take it underground. My point is that any and all electronic spying is expensive and should be used with great care and fore-thought. I remember what it was like to be on a budget, and I will always try to find ways to do the job, without costing a lot of dough. Try communicating first, then escalate.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

OP, consider this. You gave your WW the GIFT of R 2 years ago. 

She should be doing everything in her power to put your mind at ease that she would no cheat again. HOWEVER, she is doing the exact opposite.

That alone for me would be enough to tell her to hit the bricks, whether or not she is cheating again this time, which looks likely.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

barbados said:


> OP, consider this. You gave your WW the GIFT of R 2 years ago.
> 
> She should be doing everything in her power to put your mind at ease that she would no cheat again. HOWEVER, she is doing the exact opposite.
> 
> That alone for me would be enough to tell her to hit the bricks, whether or not she is cheating again this time, which looks likely.


Absolutely. The OP is completely in the right, and should stand up for himself .In my opinion, I wouldn't worry about the red flags except as bargaining chips in a divorce settlement.But, if the OP wants to continue the marriage, he needs his questions answered.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> I agree that it is possible that she will take it underground. My point is that any and all electronic spying is expensive and should be used with great care and fore-thought. I remember what it was like to be on a budget, and I will always try to find ways to do the job, without costing a lot of dough. Try communicating first, then escalate.


This is nonsense, if she's cheating she will lie and take it underground. If she does finding out any information will be far more costly.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

italianjob said:


> This is nonsense, if she's cheating she will lie and take it underground. If she does finding out any information will be far more costly.


Not true. Many WS's will admit to affairs. We have some of them here. PLus, if the OP uses electronic gadgets first, then he doesn't even have the option. The expense of electronic equipment is the same, whenever you buy it. My point is to start working by himself, first....then escalate. Not drop an A-bomb first, then there is no going back.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I never got to my state of life by jumping the gun or over-reacting. A calm reasoned approach is always best. Remember, you can always escalate if need be. The OP and his wife need to talk first. Give her the opportunity to come clean. At the same time, the OP can state his demands and concerns. If the wife doesn't comply, then escalate. Either by electronic spying, or if necessary, divorce.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Not true. Many WS's will admit to affairs. We have some of them here. PLus, if the OP uses electronic gadgets first, then he doesn't even have the option. The expense of electronic equipment is the same, whenever you buy it. My point is to start working by himself, first....then escalate. Not drop an A-bomb first, then there is no going back.


Very few WS admit if just asked, I was one of them, but it's not very common.
What Abomb would he be dropping?

I have a hunch that you're just pushing your usual agenda and try to prevent the OP from finding out informations with means different from asking. A few weeks ago it was a matter of honorability and integrity, this morning of legality, now of costs.
Just say that you are personally against it and let go absurd motivations...


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Why you don’t have that conversion is based on what most experience: A cheater will lie. 

It is extremely rare they will confess just because you confronted. Those that would are usually the same ones racked with guilt who were about to confess anyway. She’s been through it before. So IF she is cheating, she knows damn well and has thought it through. It was a conscience choice versus a fit of passion or just puppy love. So she will approach it rationally and from a logistics management side too.

So if all you have is redflags, she can easily justify it all going through each and every thing; She’s already thought about how to answer those questions and will make you look like an arse. "You want me fat!? I'm not allowed to take some pride in my appearance without you thinking I'm f'ing someone! You are crazy and I'll be damned if become some fat slob to appease your insecurity!" That is why you need to quietly gather information until you feel there is definitely something going on that can’t easily be explained away. A VAR, gps, helps a lot especially if she has an emotional connection to someone else. She’ll need to talk to them even if they work side by side all day long, most can’t resist. The nurse thing makes it a lot more complicated… rooms, beds and a place to clean up after. It might help finding a friend on the inside who can kind of watch out for it.

The other complication is you are dealing with someone who already went through this. She knows what you will probably be looking at based on the past infidelity. So from the get go, she’s already covering her tracks having learned from ‘the last time’. That does mean if she is having an affair, it is already going to be deeper underground than the last round. She may have even started with a burner phone or hidden app like those free txting ones that won’t show on the phone records at all (since that’s how you nailed her hide the last round). She won’t make the same mistakes. Serial adulterers are a different breed.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

italianjob said:


> Very few WS admit if just asked, I was one of them, but it's not very common.
> What Abomb would he be dropping?
> 
> I have a hunch that you're just pushing your usual agenda and try to prevent the OP from finding out informations with means different from asking. A few weeks ago it was a matter of honorability and integrity, this morning of legality, now of costs.
> Just say that you are personally against it and let go absurd motivations...


You are way behind the curve. I have ALWAYS stated my objections to electronic gadgets. My main objection is that some posters will jump on the band wagon and advise the BS to use all sorts of electronic gadgets and Polygraphs, etc, because they haven't the courage to confront their WS. It's easier to sneak around and spy.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Racer said:


> Why you don’t have that conversion is based on what most experience: A cheater will lie.
> 
> It is extremely rare they will confess just because you confronted. Those that would are usually the same ones racked with guilt who were about to confess anyway. She’s been through it before. So IF she is cheating, she knows damn well and has thought it through. It was a conscience choice versus a fit of passion or just puppy love. So she will approach it rationally and from a logistics management side too.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. If it were me, I would not have taken her back the first time. I don't believe in Reconciliation.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> You are way behind the curve. I have ALWAYS stated my objections to electronic gadgets. My main objection is that some posters will jump on the band wagon and advise the BS to use all sorts of electronic gadgets and Polygraphs, etc, because they haven't the courage to confront their WS. It's easier to sneak around and spy.


It's not a matter of courage, it's a matter of finding out the truth. Cheaters usually lie. Some don't but it's a rarity. It's easier to find out the truth when the people who are hiding it are taking ordinary precautions and not very special care.

9 times out of 10 if you just ask they will begin taking very special care and it will be very hard to find out.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

italianjob said:


> It's not a matter of courage, it's a matter of finding out the truth. Cheaters usually lie. Some don't but it's a rarity. It's easier to find out the truth when the people who are hiding it are taking ordinary precautions and not very special care.
> 
> 9 times out of 10 if you just ask they will begin taking very special care and it will be very hard to find out.


That is not the situation, here. The OP ALREADY KNOWS his wife is a cheater. She has done it before. He also already knows that she will lie and deceive. So what possible good can come from spending the money to electronically spy on her? He already knows enough to divorce. I think he just doesn't want to pull the string, and is trying to find excuses , not to.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> You are way behind the curve. I have ALWAYS stated my objections to electronic gadgets. My main objection is that some posters will jump on the band wagon and advise the BS to use all sorts of electronic gadgets and Polygraphs, etc, because they haven't the courage to confront their WS. It's easier to sneak around and spy.


Just to add: I recall you Always stated your objection in snooping or using any other mean different than asking the spouses if they are cheating.

Actually I'm not a big fan of electronic devices myself, but I feel you should try to find out if there's something wrong with any mean that will be more useful for that purpose in any specific case.


----------



## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> That is not the situation, here. The OP ALREADY KNOWS his wife is a cheater. She has done it before. He also already knows that she will lie and deceive. So what possible good can come from spending the money to electronically spy on her? He already knows enough to divorce. I think he just doesn't want to pull the string, and is trying to find excuses , not to.


I think he wants to be sure if she's back at it before calling it quits. He knows she's done it before, but he only suspects she's doing it now.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I agree with Gus Polinski on just about everything, except the electronic part. I think you need to have a "heart to heart" talk with your wife about the marriage....first. Then escalate by trying to discover her actions and acquaintences by observation, home computer and billing checks, and questioning. Only after you have exhausted all other means, should you consider the expense of electronic gadgets or PI's.


the op has already tried the"heart to heart"

the electronics are needed here to know where he stands.
especially since the work place spying is out

not everybody gets the confession, it is very rare.
the BS usually gets lied to gaslight and TT


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I agree that it is possible that she will take it underground. My point is that any and all electronic spying is expensive and should be used with great care and fore-thought. I remember what it was like to be on a budget, and I will always try to find ways to do the job, without costing a lot of dough. Try communicating first, then escalate.



he has already tried to communicate.
around 50 dollars for a VAR and there is a lot of free down loads to recover texts.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Not true. *Many* WS's will admit to affairs. We have some of them here. PLus, if the OP uses electronic gadgets first, then he doesn't even have the option. The expense of electronic equipment is the same, whenever you buy it. My point is to start working by himself, first....then escalate. Not drop an A-bomb first, then there is no going back.


not many without solid proof

it is really rare for a wayward spouse to admit without proof


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I never got to my state of life by jumping the gun or over-reacting. A calm reasoned approach is always best. Remember, you can always escalate if need be. The OP and his wife need to talk first. Give her the opportunity to come clean. At the same time, the OP can state his demands and concerns. If the wife doesn't comply, then escalate. Either by electronic spying, or if necessary, divorce.


they have talked.

if by not overacting means to kick her out and to go straight to D, that is not what op wants.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> You are way behind the curve. I have ALWAYS stated my objections to electronic gadgets. My main objection is that some posters will jump on the band wagon and advise the BS to use all sorts of electronic gadgets and Polygraphs, etc, because they haven't the courage to confront their WS. It's easier to sneak around and spy.


To confront a WS with a few red flags I would recommend as a *last resort *to anyone who is not fully confident in talking in a stressed situation and even, then unless they go in hard and cold if the WS is a confident person (which in most WS it is) it will always *mostly* fail

If you try the' lets talk like adults' route why in heck should they say anything that will incriminate them after lying all this time

Tell you what Rookie
Ill look back through this thread and see which way the majority lean to see if I'm on the right tack, true majority isn't always right but law of averages is in the favour of the majority being right on an infidelity subject on this board, not always but mostl
So for me more evidence more chance of finding truth


P.S.
OP ASKED


> *The problem is that I'm not at all satisfied with the lack of texts/calls/emails. If she's doing this*, it's happening during working hours and/or via a burner phone and secret email account.
> So how does one *get evidence* of a workplace affair?


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> I agree with this. If it were me, I would not have taken her back the first time. I don't believe in Reconciliation.


:iagree:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> All of these things could happen, true, but they are all very public, and would not be able to be kept secret from the OP's wife. This would defeat the purpose of hiring a PI, in the first place. What good is a PI without secrecy? And believe me, NO COMPANY is going to spy on behalf of a private individual. You would get sued in a heartbeat.


They might if the employee was breaching company policy and likely to bring bad publicity down on the company's good name.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

G.J. said:


> To confront a WS with a few red flags I would recommend as a *last resort *to anyone who is not fully confident in talking in a stressed situation and even, then unless they go in hard and cold if the WS is a confident person (which in most WS it is) it will always *mostly* fail
> 
> If you try the' lets talk like adults' route why in heck should they say anything that will incriminate them after lying all this time
> 
> ...



I agree GJ


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

marcel kittel said:


> I thought I had moved past the affair and started to trust her again. For 2 years, there has been no evidence of extramarital activity...at least not the kind of evidence that she left last time. There are no texts from her phone according to phone bills. I can't find any emails from the account I'm aware of. So, I had kind of allowed a trust to redevelop.
> 
> But over the last several weeks, our relationship has really soured, culminating in her consulting a divorce attorney. We've been fighting a ton and I get the sense that the fights are out of proportion to the causes. She has accused me of cheating (I have not, not in any way). Several other things seem off, which taken alone wouldn't bother me, but taken together raise a red flag:


The comments in this thread still baffle me. She cheated and you guys were in a false reconciliation and now she's either 1. cheating again and wants out or 2. isn't cheating and wants out.

Is everyone missing the fact that she wants out and that OP cannot force her to want in? That's common sense people. It's a sad deception to think that OP finding out whether she's cheating or not will fix anything because he found out the first time and here they are again. She's damaged good. She's not marriage material and that's the simple reality. Whatever view OP has of this woman is false and it's driven by fear and insecurity.

Here's the solution. Cut her loose and work on yourself and don't look back. The old cliche of *horse to water* comes to mind. Again I don't understand all of this bickering about snooping or not because it's missing the point entirely. This women wants out and OP will be lucky when she's gone. OP needs to work on OP and be a wonderful partner to someone else in the future who is actually loyal and treats him like he deserves to be treated.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

italianjob said:


> Just to add: I recall you Always stated your objection in snooping or using any other mean different than asking the spouses if they are cheating.
> 
> Actually I'm not a big fan of electronic devices myself, but I feel you should try to find out if there's something wrong with any mean that will be more useful for that purpose in any specific case.


Personally, I object to electronic junk , at all times. But I do realize that some posters like them. but I would always confront, first..


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

convert said:


> they have talked.
> 
> if by not overacting means to kick her out and to go straight to D, that is not what op wants.


Then it is on him, if he will put up with her activities. I would not.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

G.J. said:


> To confront a WS with a few red flags I would recommend as a *last resort *to anyone who is not fully confident in talking in a stressed situation and even, then unless they go in hard and cold if the WS is a confident person (which in most WS it is) it will always *mostly* fail
> 
> If you try the' lets talk like adults' route why in heck should they say anything that will incriminate them after lying all this time
> 
> ...


So? OK , you are a "bandwagon" sort of person. I am not.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> The comments in this thread still baffle me. She cheated and you guys were in a false reconciliation and now she's either 1. cheating again and wants out or 2. isn't cheating and wants out.
> 
> Is everyone missing the fact that she wants out and that OP cannot force her to want in? That's common sense people. It's a sad deception to think that OP finding out whether she's cheating or not will fix anything because he found out the first time and here they are again. She's damaged good. She's not marriage material and that's the simple reality. Whatever view OP has of this woman is false and it's driven by fear and insecurity.
> 
> Here's the solution. Cut her loose and work on yourself and don't look back. The old cliche of *horse to water* comes to mind. Again I don't understand all of this bickering about snooping or not because it's missing the point entirely. This women wants out and OP will be lucky when she's gone. OP needs to work on OP and be a wonderful partner to someone else in the future who is actually loyal and treats him like he deserves to be treated.


I agree. This marriage is on the rocks, the wife has cheated before, and the husband has all of the info necessary to D. What is the point in finding out all of the gory details? How will it make anything better? I truly think that some BS's are into self-abuse. The OP can do much better than this wife.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> The comments in this thread still baffle me. She cheated and you guys were in a false reconciliation and now she's either 1. cheating again and wants out or 2. isn't cheating and wants out.
> 
> Is everyone missing the fact that she wants out and that OP cannot force her to want in? That's common sense people. It's a sad deception to think that OP finding out whether she's cheating or not will fix anything because he found out the first time and here they are again. She's damaged good. She's not marriage material and that's the simple reality. Whatever view OP has of this woman is false and it's driven by fear and insecurity.
> 
> Here's the solution. Cut her loose and work on yourself and don't look back. The old cliche of *horse to water* comes to mind. Again I don't understand all of this bickering about snooping or not because it's missing the point entirely. This women wants out and OP will be lucky when she's gone. OP needs to work on OP and be a wonderful partner to someone else in the future who is actually loyal and treats him like he deserves to be treated.


The OP asked about getting evidence. Not everyone can just move to D without hard evidence. Many need something before they can pull the trigger on D. Many need that so they can have closure. She's more than likely a serial cheater, no argument there, and he would be better off without her. But he also needs that evidence so he can move on.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> I agree that it is possible that she will take it underground. My point is that any and all electronic spying is expensive and should be used with great care and fore-thought. *I remember what it was like to be on a budget,* and I will always try to find ways to do the job, without costing a lot of dough. Try communicating first, then escalate.


Who said anything about OP being on a budget?

Honestly Rookie, where do you come up with this stuff?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> Who said anything about OP being on a budget?
> 
> Honestly Rookie, where do you come up with this stuff?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Where did I say that the OP was on a budget? I said that I remembered when I was on a budget. See the difference? I was simply saying that the electronic junk was a useless expense, in this case.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> The OP asked about getting evidence. Not everyone can just move to D without hard evidence. Many need something before they can pull the trigger on D. Many need that so they can have closure. She's more than likely a serial cheater, no argument there, and he would be better off without her. But he also needs that evidence so he can move on.


His wife has consulted a lawyer, is treating him like crap, and has cheated before. If he wants her to either change or be gone then something more along the lines of a 180 are in order. Something where his focus is on what he can control (himself). Needing hard evidence is often a way to draw an unobtainable line the sand. For example, she's crossing showstopper boundaries already that marcel doesn't want to deal with. Rather than him making a stand about how she's treating him, he wants to go snooping for hard core proof. That's generally a stall technique and it's the opposite of what needs to happen. If she's being disrespectful and nasty already and he's allowing that then her view of him is dropping daily and she's resenting him more and more for not standing up to her.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> So? OK , you are a "bandwagon" sort of person. I am not.


Sorry
What is a bandwagon person ? 

In fact don't bother explaining you are having multiple talks with nearly every poster and this thread is truly peppered


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> His wife has consulted a lawyer, is treating him like crap, and has cheated before. If he wants her to either change or be gone then something more along the lines of a 180 are in order. Something where his focus is on what he can control (himself). Needing hard evidence is often a way to draw an unobtainable line the sand. For example, she's crossing showstopper boundaries already that marcel doesn't want to deal with. Rather than him making a stand about how she's treating him, he wants to go snooping for hard core proof. That's generally a stall technique and it's the opposite of what needs to happen. If she's being disrespectful and nasty already and he's allowing that then her view of him is dropping daily and she's resenting him more and more for not standing up to her.


That's standard cheater behavior, the consulting of the lawyer and starting fights with him. Personally, I wouldn't even give her the chance, given her history andprofession. But he's one who needs the conclusive proof. Normally, I would recommend that further evidence is not needed in cases where the WS is rubbing the affair in the face of the BS (i.e. luvmyjava, etc). But this isn't the case here. The most common mistake that BSs make is doing the soft confrontation, meaning, they confronted without sufficient proof. This allows the WS to gaslight and/or do the DDD (Deny, Deny, Deny). This tactic also allows the WS to put doubt in the BSs mind. There's many cases like that in the forum. With the definitive proof in hand, it can give Marcel the closure that he needs and harden his resolve.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> That's standard cheater behavior, the consulting of the lawyer and starting fights with him. Personally, I wouldn't even give her the chance, given her history andprofession. But he's one who needs the conclusive proof. Normally, I would recommend that further evidence is not needed in cases where the WS is rubbing the affair in the face of the BS (i.e. luvmyjava, etc). But this isn't the case here. The most common mistake that BSs make is doing the soft confrontation, meaning, they confronted without sufficient proof. This allows the WS to gaslight and/or do the DDD (Deny, Deny, Deny). This tactic also allows the WS to put doubt in the BSs mind. There's many cases like that in the forum. With the definitive proof in hand, it can give Marcel the closure that he needs and harden his resolve.


So you are saying that the OP needs hard evidence of TWO affairs before he acts? How many do-overs does this woman get? I agree with Thundarr that the OP (and other BS's) use evidence gathering as an excuse to avoid facing the truth. The person the OP needs to confront the most...is himself. There are some WS's who view any attempt by their BS's with contempt, as showing weakness. I suspect that this is the case, here. A nice guy , who is being abused by a wayward spouse. The 180 might help, but I doubt it. What good is drawing lines in the sand, if , when the other person crosses them, you still do nothing?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> That's standard cheater behavior, the consulting of the lawyer and starting fights with him. Personally, I wouldn't even give her the chance, given her history andprofession. But he's one who needs the conclusive proof. Normally, I would recommend that further evidence is not needed in cases where the WS is rubbing the affair in the face of the BS (i.e. luvmyjava, etc). But this isn't the case here. The most common mistake that BSs make is doing the soft confrontation, meaning, they confronted without sufficient proof. This allows the WS to gaslight and/or do the DDD (Deny, Deny, Deny). This tactic also allows the WS to put doubt in the BSs mind. There's many cases like that in the forum. With the definitive proof in hand, it can give Marcel the closure that he needs and harden his resolve.


Maybe my point was lost in translation or maybe no one agrees with it. I'm not sure. My point was merely that she's treating marcel like garbage and that should be enough for him to send her on her way. I just don't comprehend wanting to be with someone like her whether she's cheated or not. And I don't see too many comments telling him to take care of himself and set boundaries.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

An analogy: We had a plant that was very profitable and efficient, with an outstanding manager.. The manager retired and was replaced by another man. The efficiency gradually dropped off and the plant became less profitable. When we asked the manager what the problem was, he appointed Management/employee "fact finding" committees, called in efficiency representatives, and instituted production changes.He said all the right things and was very persuasive, so it was decided to give his methods a few months. There was a slight increase, but not near what it was before. I went to the plant and spent a week reviewing the paperwork, and another week observing plant operations. On the third week, I fired the manager, 5 other people, dismissed the fact finding group, and efficiency persons, returned the plant to the method of operation that the previous manager had used , and efficiency and production improve dramatically. All of the info needed was already there, all that was lacking was the will to act.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

LOL.

Sorry you are here and sorry you are now involved in one of the dumber recurring debates on TAM "You have enough proof" vs "Get more proof." Yes, from both directions. You are not the first, nor will you be the last, betrayed spouse who has enough red flags to act, but wants 100% proof.
Do what you need to do, LEGALLY, but:

1)Do not become obsessed chasing after proof.
2)Remember you may never get 100% proof.
3)Do not rush into any life altering decisions if you get proof.

Also, realize, you may have to make a decision based on circumstantial evidence. 

Good luck, I hope it is poor communication and nothing worse.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

You do realize the OP hasn't posted since page 3 right?


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Racer said:


> You do realize the OP hasn't posted since page 3 right?


I know, right?

I think the PI jack drove him off.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Racer said:


> You do realize the OP hasn't posted since page 3 right?


Yes. I hope he learned what he needed to know about the pitfalls of attempting to gather personal information in the workplace.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> I know, right?
> 
> I think the PI jack drove him off.


 Then Why did you bring it up? Personally, I think that it is a valid point.. The Op named his thread, and asked specifically about gathering evidence in the workplace, so no T/J, at all.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

The needs and methods of gathering info in the workplace are all relevant to the questions the OP asked. I think this was a very informative thread, where the OP got a lot of different opinions, and I really hope it helps him to act. Even where there is disagreement, something can be learned.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Racer said:


> You do realize the OP hasn't posted since page 3 right?


Yes, yesterday.



happy as a clam said:


> I know, right?
> 
> I think the PI jack drove him off.


No, he posted yesterday.



Rookie4 said:


> Yes. I hope he learned what he needed to know about the pitfalls of attempting to gather personal information in the workplace.


Me too.

LOL.

Relax, it has only been a day.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> An analogy: We had a plant that was very profitable and efficient, with an outstanding manager.. The manager retired and was replaced by another man. The efficiency gradually dropped off and the plant became less profitable. When we asked the manager what the problem was, he appointed Management/employee "fact finding" committees, called in efficiency representatives, and instituted production changes.He said all the right things and was very persuasive, so it was decided to give his methods a few months. There was a slight increase, but not near what it was before. I went to the plant and spent a week *reviewing the paperwork*, and another week observing plant operations. On the third week, I fired the manager, 5 other people, dismissed the fact finding group, and efficiency persons, returned the plant to the method of operation that the previous manager had used , and efficiency and production improve dramatically. All of the info needed was already there, all that was lacking was the will to act.


The analogy does not fit with the OP because he does not have the "paperwork" or all of the "paperwork" anyway, and that is why he came here to get help in getting the "paperwork" or more of it.

and if you did not have the paperwork aka information would you still fire 6 people?


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

The PI was still a valid suggestion especially when it is a workplace affair because a good reputable PI could keep him out of legal trouble.

I wouldn't waste the money but it is an option for OP to consider


and for a lot of people the OP has a enough info. to make the decision to D, but some people need more and apparently so does OP.

everyone has different deal breakers/different levels of deal breakers.

*and if he lives in a at fault state the information gathered would/could be beneficial.*


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> Who said anything about OP being on a budget?
> 
> Honestly Rookie, where do you come up with this stuff?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The ignore feature is less stressful...


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

convert said:


> The analogy does not fit with the OP because he does not have the "paperwork" or all of the "paperwork" anyway, and that is why he came here to get help in getting the "paperwork" or more of it.
> 
> and if you did not have the paperwork aka information would you still fire 6 people?


I did not need to review ALL of the paperwork, only enough to see where the problem was. This insistence on getting all of the gory details of affairs is, to my mind , very unhealthy. As I said before, If you know your spouse cheats , what more do you need to know?


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I did not need to review ALL of the paperwork, only enough to see where the problem was. This insistence on getting all of the gory details of affairs is, to my mind , very unhealthy. As I said before, If you know your spouse cheats , what more do you need to know?


Some people need all or more details. The mind movies are sometimes worse then the whole truth. It was in my case, so knowing all or more of the details helped me.
I know this is not true for everyone.

or if by chance knowing the details would be worse then the mind movies it could help the BS make a more confident and quicker decision to move forward with D.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Rookie4 said:


> Yes. I hope he learned what he needed to know about the pitfalls of attempting to gather personal information in the workplace.


You made your point... Then continued to argue instead of making your own thread to explain your 'wisdom'. Total threadjack. He hasn't come back since. Did you really help?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Racer said:


> You made your point... Then continued to argue instead of making your own thread to explain your 'wisdom'. Total threadjack. He hasn't come back since. Did you really help?


I certainly hope so. If I have helped to persuade a poster from making a huge mistake, I will be happy.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

convert said:


> Some people need all or more details. The mind movies are sometimes worse then the whole truth. It was in my case, so knowing all or more the details helped me.
> I know this is not true for everyone.
> 
> or if by chance knowing the details would be worse then the mind movies it could help the BS make a more confident and quicker decision to move forward with D.


I disagree, but am not going to press the point.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

So it's ok to get a divorce, destroy your self financially, emotionally wreck your kids but whatever you do DON'T BUY A VOICE ACTIVATED RECORDER that's just stepping over the line.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Why are you attacking me? I did not attack you, or even mention you.


I made an observation not an attack. Like you I didn't explain my comment. Also, don't be ridiculous. If you, I or anyone else on TAM waited until they were specifically addressed or mentioned, people would rarely post. 



Rookie4 said:


> It seems that YOU have the problem....not me. Are you just T/J ing or trying to create drama?


Irony.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

ButtPunch said:


> So it's ok to get a divorce, destroy your self financially, emotionally wreck your kids but whatever you do DON'T BUY A VOICE ACTIVATED RECORDER that's just stepping over the line.


Nope, not what I said at all. What I said was that this OP already knows his wife is a cheater, so what is the point in going to the expense, to PROVE WHAT YOU ALREADY KNOW? GEEZ, if more people would just PAY ATTENTION to what is happening around them, there would be fewer affairs and fewer divorces. They don't call them "red Flags" for nothing. BTW, I am just as guilty of this as anybody.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Nope, not what I said at all. What I said was that this OP already knows his wife is a cheater, so what is the point in going to the expense, to PROVE WHAT YOU ALREADY KNOW? GEEZ, if more people would just PAY ATTENTION to what is happening around them, there would be fewer affairs and fewer divorces. They don't call them "red Flags" for nothing. BTW, I am just as guilty of this as anybody.


My point is people do not tend to believe they are being cheated on especially if it has never happened before. The brain unconsciously protects you from the pain. People see the red flags but still think it can't be so. I was one of those until I snooped into the phone records and looked up a suspicious number. That was when I truly saw the red flags for what they were. It tooK the smoking gun for me to accept it to be true.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

ButtPunch said:


> My point is people do not tend to believe they are being cheated on especially if it has never happened before. The brain unconsciously protects you from the pain. People see the red flags but still think it can't be so. I was one of those until I snooped into the phone records and looked up a suspicious number. That was when I truly saw the red flags for what they were. It too the smoking gun for me to accept it to be true.


Well, I may not have been a believer in Red Flags, before, but I certainly am now. I'm out of here.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

ButtPunch said:


> So it's ok to get a divorce, destroy your self financially, emotionally wreck your kids but *whatever you do DON'T BUY A VOICE ACTIVATED RECORDER*, that's just stepping over the line.


Yep, you don't want to waste that fifty bucks, that's for sure.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Suspecting2014 (Jun 11, 2014)

Marcel,

You should really read this thread,

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/67661-become-spy-catching-them-technology.html


DD discovered his wife affair using a mobile program that allowed him to use it as a VAR and heard his WW with OM form his own computer.

Good look


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## marcel kittel (Jan 27, 2015)

*I've gotten 1 day of VAR*

All it got was a phone call from her to me. Otherwise it recorded a quiet ride to work. 

On a related note, I've seen references to reading materials for betrayed spouses. Is there a thread that goes into detail about things like the 180. I've read that post elsewhere, but I'm looking for additional reading.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

*Re: I've gotten 1 day of VAR*



marcel kittel said:


> All it got was a phone call from her to me. Otherwise it recorded a quiet ride to work.
> 
> On a related note, I've seen references to reading materials for betrayed spouses. Is there a thread that goes into detail about things like the 180. I've read that post elsewhere, but I'm looking for additional reading.


If you are determined to try to R, then the Marriage Builders website has a lot to offer. While I don't agree with all that they say, they have a lot of instructional information about the procedures. Good Luck!!


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

Marriagebuilders is never going to recommend the 180.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

*Re: I've gotten 1 day of VAR*



marcel kittel said:


> All it got was a phone call from her to me. Otherwise it recorded a quiet ride to work.
> .


Early days yet
Keep vigilant


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

syhoybenden said:


> Marriagebuilders is never going to recommend the 180.


I agree, but you can find out what it is, there. Plus, they have some good ideas about ending affairs that are worthwhile.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Here is a link to the 180. Its a tool for getting over your spouse. It isn't a reconciliation tool though it sometimes shocks the wayward spouse into trying to save their marriage.

The Healing Heart: The 180


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

syhoybenden said:


> Marriagebuilders is never going to recommend the 180.


Marriage builders does recommend acting according to the 180. They do not call it that .. but it's recommended.

In Plan A... you basically do the 180 until the cheater decides to leave with AP. 

When it goes into Plan B.. you do a hard 180 to the point of as little to no contact as possible.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Good stuff


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

For what its worth, MarriageBuilders is a lame site and their approach is ineffective. However some things are worth looking at but please take their Plan A and Plan B [email protected] with a huge pinch of salt!!! I have personally seen them do more damage to a poster called SteveK (although he was a difficult case) than anything else. They had him begging for his cheating wife to come back in the end!!!!


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

manfromlamancha said:


> For what its worth, MarriageBuilders is a lame site and their approach is ineffective. However some things are worth looking at but please take their Plan A and Plan B [email protected] with a huge pinch of salt!!! I have personally seen them do more damage to a poster called SteveK (although he was a difficult case) than anything else. They had him begging for his cheating wife to come back in the end!!!!


Strange that Dr. Harley, the author and guru of that site, himself stated that if he was cheated on, that he would never talk to his wife again.

_"My wife, Joyce, let me know early on that if I ever had an affair, she would not divorce me, she would KILL me. My own response to an affair by Joyce would not be as drastic. *I wouldn't kill her, I'd just never see or talk to her again*. That's what I thought I would do."_

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html

Yet the advice is to try Plan A crap? Seriously?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

manfromlamancha said:


> For what its worth, MarriageBuilders is a lame site and their approach is ineffective. However some things are worth looking at but please take their Plan A and Plan B [email protected] with a huge pinch of salt!!! I have personally seen them do more damage to a poster called SteveK (although he was a difficult case) than anything else. They had him begging for his cheating wife to come back in the end!!!!


It depends on what you go there for. They do a good job defining infidelity and the various terms and procedures. I also have doubts about some of their plans. Most sites have their good points and their bad points.


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