# The confusion of it all



## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

So many of you regulars have probably seen my post about the problems with my marriage, or at least the recent problems. Long story short, I had and was caught in an EA that never got physical, my wife was caught texting with another man and from everything I've seen during my investigation, it was an EA that never got physical. More recently I found a suggestive text on her phone from a different man that she said was nothing more than an unsolicited text. Again, through my investigating I have found that it was nothing more than an unsolicited text.

What confuses me is this, for about 2 years now we have been having problems. Each time something has happened we have spoken about it and trying to work past things. Within the past couple weeks I have noticed her making an effort, showing more affection, talking more about random interests and not work or our problems, things like that. It hasn't been a great effort, but it's much more than I've seen. But then out of nowhere there's a mood swing where once again it seems like she doesn't want me around, and that mood swing can go on unprovoked for a couple days. 

I have asked her many times over the last two years if she wants to stay married and if she wants to try and work on things, and the only answer I've gotten is "I'm not sure, I need to feel comfortable in our relationship again before I can make a decision" Now I know what everyone is going to say, "Why are you still together if that's her answer?" And I do agree, but then there are those times where it really does feel like she's making a real effort and things improve. I can understand her not wanting to give me a direct answer to the question, she is stubborn, always wants her way, and never likes to show her hand until she's ready. She's always been like that and it is something I do like about her, or at least did up until the problems started. But the back and forth of one week seeing an effort and things are good, then back to she wants nothing to do with me for a day or two and then this little truce kind of period before things improve again just confuses me.

I am really at the point that I'm ready to file for divorce because I just don't want to live like this anymore. But on the other hand, when things are good, they're good, and the good days have been outweighing the bad days more and more recently. I go back and forth between how I've been living like this for awhile now so what's a little while longer, to I'm done with this I can't deal with it anymore. I do still love her and the last thing I want to do is divorce, but I keep finding myself more and more on the fence about all it.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Sounds like you need to read this:
https://www.amazon.com/Good-Leave-Stay-Step-Step/dp/0452275350


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

File for divorce. If she wants to make it work, she will exert effort. You can always stop the filing. 

When you ask someone if they want to stay married, any answer other than "Yes" means No.


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## megamuppet (Feb 13, 2017)

Have you tried couples counselling? It sounds like there is a lot being 'unsaid'. It might give you the chance to truly put both sets of cards on the table and start anew.

Just out of curiosity, who had the first EA? 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

AtMyEnd said:


> So many of you regulars have probably seen my post about the problems with my marriage, or at least the recent problems. Long story short, I had and was caught in an EA that never got physical, my wife was caught texting with another man and from everything I've seen during my investigation, it was an EA that never got physical. More recently I found a suggestive text on her phone from a different man that she said was nothing more than an unsolicited text. Again, through my investigating I have found that it was nothing more than an unsolicited text.
> 
> What confuses me is this, for about 2 years now we have been having problems. Each time something has happened we have spoken about it and trying to work past things. Within the past couple weeks I have noticed her making an effort, showing more affection, talking more about random interests and not work or our problems, things like that. It hasn't been a great effort, but it's much more than I've seen. But then out of nowhere there's a mood swing where once again it seems like she doesn't want me around, and that mood swing can go on unprovoked for a couple days.
> 
> ...


Upon immediate reflection it appears you expect her to trust you and work on the marriage, who had the EA first? Not to justify her actions but was her EA a 'revenge' EA. If so, you are not in any position to make any demands as the first EA was the nuclear bomb in your marriage, no wonder she will not show her hand. 

For me the telling sentence in your story is how you glossed over your own EA and immediately talked about your wife's texting which may or may not have been an EA. You also found an 'unsolicited' textr. It is as if you are looking to find her doing the same thing as you. It would be interesting to hear from your wife because I suspect you and only you had an affair but you want to even things out to justify your actions. So perhaps you might want to reevaluate your position and be a bit more truthful about how this all started.

The mood swing is her realizing that you cannot be trusted and she is second guessing herself whether she is doing the right thing investing again in the marriage.
You don't want to live with her behaviour but for a wayward spouse yourself what have you been bringing to the table? It sound like you expect her to do all the heavy lifting although you yourself are culpable, what have you done to show her you are committed to her and the marriage, will never ever do what you did again, etc. 
YOu appear to be making this all about you.

Actually based on this, she should divorce you.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

AtMyEnd said:


> More recently I found a suggestive text on her phone from a different man that she said was nothing more than an unsolicited text.


Forgive me if I roll my eyes into the back of head because this is SO cliche of the typical clueless husband.

OP, I've never received an 'unsolicited' sexually suggestive text from some mouth-breather who *know*s my cell phone number. And if the fool DID dare to send me something like that out of the blue, it's not something my husband would just forget about and delete like you did, I can tell you that. The guy would be hearing from him.

Not sure what super-sleuth methods you supposedly employed in order to be able to claim the text was nothing, but you'd better think again. You're obviously unaware of the *many* different ways people can stay in touch with each other using all kinds of apps that use WiFi, not your cell phone carrier. That means NO trace is left on the cell bill or in the texting or calling history. It's ALL contained in the app. And cheaters hide these apps so they're not visible to you. They've also been known to uninstall the app when they get home and just reinstall it when they leave for work in the morning (or when YOU leave for work in the morning).

Stop being so naive thinking she's a girl scout.

From your post I can already tell she's the one who wears the pants. For two years you've been doing the 'pick me' dance, being needy and asking her if she wants to be with you, and for 2 years you've actually accepted her bull**** non-answers about not knowing what she wants. So, instead of finding your spine and calling an end to this farce, you just dance a little faster, praying she'll finally give you the answer you're hoping for.

I have to be brutally honest. Just _reading_ this post makes you sound weak, needy and desperate, so I can only imagine how you appear to *her*. That's about as unattractive as a man can possibly get.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Forgive me if I roll my eyes into the back of head because this is SO cliche of the typical clueless husband.
> 
> OP, I've never received an 'unsolicited' sexually suggestive text from some mouth-breather who *know*s my cell phone number. And if the fool DID dare to send me something like that out of the blue, it's not something my husband would just forget about and delete like you did, I can tell you that. The guy would be hearing from him.
> 
> ...


Well I did confront him about it and made it very clear that if I found anything else like that his life would become extremely difficult. My "super sleuthing" methods were direct to the source. When I found the text on her phone I looked through the entire thread and there was nothing else there. Since then I have gained access to her phone secretly a few times and have looked through everything, emails, texts, messaging apps, all of it, and all I have found is conversations with her friends about it how I'm making a big deal over an unsolicited text. I have also downloaded all the backups and deleted messages from her found and have found nothing else. 

And yes, I will admit that over the course of our problems I have lost myself and become needy. But over the last few months I have taken the steps to change that, and that's the time period now that I have seen the most change from her. I've stopped hoping or expecting anything from her and I live my life on my terms. My problem here is that yes, I do still love her, we have a young child together, and I don't feel that throwing away 15 years of our lives together because of a couple bad years is worth it. I've told myself that for my son's sake I would stick it out a little longer and see what happens. But that patience is really beginning to wear thin.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

aine said:


> Upon immediate reflection it appears you expect her to trust you and work on the marriage, who had the EA first? Not to justify her actions but was her EA a 'revenge' EA. If so, you are not in any position to make any demands as the first EA was the nuclear bomb in your marriage, no wonder she will not show her hand.
> 
> For me the telling sentence in your story is how you glossed over your own EA and immediately talked about your wife's texting which may or may not have been an EA. You also found an 'unsolicited' textr. It is as if you are looking to find her doing the same thing as you. It would be interesting to hear from your wife because I suspect you and only you had an affair but you want to even things out to justify your actions. So perhaps you might want to reevaluate your position and be a bit more truthful about how this all started.
> 
> ...


Well for one, when I was caught I offered up anything and everything I could. I showed her my phone, my email, answered every question she asked me truthfully and whatever else she asked. I even gave her the OW's number and email and told her to contact her and ask her whatever she wanted. I brought up that we needed to go to counseling, looked for a counselor and made the appointments. In counseling I held nothing back, I didn't hide a thing and she knew it. All the things she used to tell me I didn't do that she wished I did, I started doing. I put in every ounce of effort that I could to try and show her that I knew I was wrong and was making an effort to change myself and to try and fix our marriage.

When I caught her texting another man everyday from the time she woke up to the time she went to sleep, her response was he's a friend and a mentor, and that he gives her a lot of advise about work cases and they had just became friends. When I asked her to see her phone and show me the texts, she refused. She said that her privacy was important to her, that they also talked about things about his personal life as well as hers and that I had no business reading about things in his life. I disagreed and told her that if she wanted me to believe that, that she'd show me the phone. I told her how when she caught me I was completely open about it and I expected her to do the same, but she still refused. At the time I couldn't gain access to her phone, all I could do is monitor her text and data logs from our cell carrier. I saw that the texts had stopped and there was no unusual increases in data, along with paying closer attention to where she was going and being able to verify that, I didn't see any other flags at all so I had to put it behind us and try to move forward. Shortly after I found out about this and confronted her on it was when she decided she didn't want to continue counseling saying she "didn't believe in it". After a long conversation about it we both agreed that we'd try and work on things ourselves, see how it goes and if things got bad again we'd go back to counseling, she still refuses to go back.

When I found the most recent text, the "unsolicited" one, again after confronting her on it I asked to she her phone, and again she refused. After days of arguments about it I let things die down a little, I knew if I kept pushing it would just push her further away. I did a lot more research after that one as far as how to get into her phone, computer, VAR's and everything else. I did figure out how to get into her phone without her knowing, and after seeing there were no other texts and seeing all the texts with her friends about it I did come to the conclusion that nothing had actually happened. The OW knew our marriage was a mess and my thinking on it was that the text was his way of making a move on her. But again, since the only evidence I found was evidence going against what I thought, and yes there was a lot of it, I had to put this behind us as well.

Since all of that I have done a 180, limiting communication and interaction to only things about our son or the house, essential things. I started working out again, going out with friends more, doing things for me, and spending more quality time just me and my son. If he and I are going to do something, yes I'll ask if she wants to go, but if she doesn't it's fine, we go anyway. If she asks me a question I answer but I don't get into a conversation about it. I've focused on me and she knows that, she's noticed it and she's commented on it in a positive way. And since I've done that I have seen signs of improvement from her. But at the same time her mood will change back and she'll withdraw from everything with no cause. That lasts a day or two and then things are ok again.

But I've been focused on working on our marriage since I got caught having an EA, she knows that and she's commented on that. I've told myself that divorce is an absolute last resort mainly because I don't want to put my son through that if I don't have to. And yes, I have seen little signs of effort and improvement from her lately, but is it too little too late?


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

megamuppet said:


> Have you tried couples counselling? It sounds like there is a lot being 'unsaid'. It might give you the chance to truly put both sets of cards on the table and start anew.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, who had the first EA?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


I had the EA first. It wasn't something I set out to do, we didn't talk or interact much at the time. I had started playing an online game to pass the time and went the OW. We would chat about the game, our lives, and my marriage. We had a lot of things in common and she would give me advice on things with my marriage, a lot of which was helpful, but one thing led to another and there it was. We had never met, and never actually talked, we only texted in the game and later texted by phone outside the game. It's not something I'm proud of, it's not something I ever meant to happen, it was a mistake. And a stupid one at that, one that I still regret and probably always will.

We did try couples counseling, we started shortly before I caught her texting another man. We went to 3 sessions and she told me she wasn't going back because she didn't believe in it. Even the 3 sessions we did I could tell, and so could the counselor, that she didn't want to be there and wasn't being open about things. After a long conversation between the two of us we both figured that if both weren't totally committed to it then it was just a waste of money.

Every conversation we've had since all of this started I have been totally open about and laid all my cards out there, hoping she would do the same, but she hasn't. She still tells me that she has a wall up between us that she doesn't know how to take down, and I keep telling her that if anything is ever going to work out that she needs to take that wall down, at least partially.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

blueinbr said:


> File for divorce. If she wants to make it work, she will exert effort. You can always stop the filing.
> 
> When you ask someone if they want to stay married, any answer other than "Yes" means No.


That has always been my last resort, but one I'm coming very close too. I know it's wrong to think this way but I worry about my young son if it does come to divorce. He's old enough to understand a lot, but I don't know if he's old enough to understand why daddy isn't there anymore. He really does mean the world to me, we have a great relationship, and I don't want to do anything that would jeopardize that or how he thinks about me. But yes, I'm approaching the point of filing, and both I know and she knows that if it comes to that I'm not coming back. I'm not going to file as a threat, if I reach that point, that's it game over.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> So many of you regulars have probably seen my post about the problems with my marriage, or at least the recent problems. Long story short, I had and was caught in an EA that never got physical, my wife was caught texting with another man and from everything I've seen during my investigation, it was an EA that never got physical. More recently I found a suggestive text on her phone from a different man that she said was nothing more than an unsolicited text. Again, through my investigating I have found that it was nothing more than an unsolicited text.
> 
> Was it from a coworker?
> 
> ...


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

AtMyEnd said:


> That has always been my last resort, but one I'm coming very close too. I know it's wrong to think this way but I worry about my young son if it does come to divorce. He's old enough to understand a lot, but I don't know if he's old enough to understand why daddy isn't there anymore. He really does mean the world to me, we have a great relationship, and I don't want to do anything that would jeopardize that or how he thinks about me. But yes, I'm approaching the point of filing, and both I know and she knows that if it comes to that I'm not coming back. I'm not going to file as a threat, if I reach that point, that's it game over.




Don't look at filing as a threat. Look at it as following the path that is best for both of you. But it might be the kick in the ass you both need to start fixing the marriage. 

You need to get off the fence and out of limbo. Filing may make you both decide which side of the fence you want. Hopefully that is the same side, whether divorce or stay married.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

blueinbr said:


> Don't look at filing as a threat. Look at it as following the path that is best for both of you. But it might be the kick in the ass you both need to start fixing the marriage.
> 
> You need to get off the fence and out of limbo. Filing may make you both decide which side of the fence you want. Hopefully that is the same side, whether divorce or stay married.


Well these next two weeks will really be the test of how things are going to go. She's away all week with her best friend this week. I haven't been communicating with her unless she initiates and actually asks me something. I Skype with her at night for my son, and that's it. I feel that this week will be good for her to clear her head, relax and just enjoy her time away. Next week our son will be at my in-laws all week so we'll have time to act like adults. We can go wherever and do whatever without having to worry about a babysitter or something like that. So we'll see, but if there is no signs of anything after next week I am telling her and meeting with an attorney and starting to look for someplace else to live. I have been on the fence too long and it's time to get off it, one side or the other.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Was it from a coworker?
> 
> She's not over your EA. She's likely harboring great resentment and hurt, especially if the EA was rug swept and never fully recovered from. Do her mood swings coincide with her cycle (woman's)? I know that I have issues with neglect by my husband from last year and I have intense mood swings regarding the pain right before my cycle each month. I'm reading The Power of Now (about fully awakening/enlightenment) and the author says that the pain-body experience is especially powerful for women at this time, and it is very difficult to manage the powerful emotions that come from issues at this time. I am in NO WAY blaming her behavior on just her "cycle," as the issues are very real- just that she might have a harder time hiding it or managing it at this time. I know I do and my husband did not have an EA- if he did, it would be MUCH more difficult for me.
> 
> That's not my question at all. You made vows. You both need to do whatever you can to save your marriage before giving up. This is not only her problem- you contributed greatly to the issues in your marriage.


It wasn't a coworker. The first texting incident was with another attorney but not one that she worked with. The second was someone we play volleyball with in the summers. I've spoken to both of them both by text and in person which is one of the reasons why I haven't found anymore communications from either.

Sometimes yes, her mood swings go along with her cycle but not always. Typically if I see the mood swing when I know it's around that time I let things slide and don't think much of them knowing that there are other factors involved.

And yes, we both took vows, and actually renewed those vows shortly before our problems began. I know that I've contributed to our problems and I have admitted that numerous times, but so has she, only she hasn't admitted to anything. Our problems started long before my EA happened, and I'm not blaming anything on anyone or anything, but our problems were started by neither one of us communicating and both of us shutting down. Other problems really came out about 3 three years ago, and at the time she had asked if we should go to counseling and I agreed. I heard her make the appointment, but the week of the appointment she told me she canceled it. She felt we should try on our own first and if things didn't work than we'd see a counselor. Well needless to say her plan didn't work.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Would she be willing to give marital coaching a try? Have you seen Marriage Builders? I know I talk about their program a lot here, and other posters do too. I like MB because you can do it from home and it gives concrete steps to take to improve communication and rebuild intimacy and Dr. Harley's work is based on research that works for a lot of couples recovering from affairs. It doesn't focus on the past. I've also heard Dr. Harley say on his radio show that a lot of MC doesn't work because it focuses too much on the issues instead of focusing on rebuilding intimacy. I think their program could really help you guys. It might be worth it to give your marriage the best shot you can.

I also want to add that I think your wife is lucky that you're here trying to improve the communication in your marriage. It really sounds like that is the main issue between you two and that can be fixed if you're able to convince her to try.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Would she be willing to give marital coaching a try? Have you seen Marriage Builders? I know I talk about their program a lot here, and other posters do too. I like MB because you can do it from home and it gives concrete steps to take to improve communication and rebuild intimacy and Dr. Harley's work is based on research that works for a lot of couples recovering from affairs. It doesn't focus on the past. I've also heard Dr. Harley say on his radio show that a lot of MC doesn't work because it focuses too much on the issues instead of focusing on rebuilding intimacy. I think their program could really help you guys. It might be worth it to give your marriage the best shot you can.
> 
> I also want to add that I think your wife is lucky that you're here trying to improve the communication in your marriage. It really sounds like that is the main issue between you two and that can be fixed if you're able to convince her to try.


Thanks Jess. I know we have our issues, we've both made mistakes and bad decisions, but it really does come down to our communication, it's horrible and it has been. As far as counseling, the counselor we had seen was focused on moving forward on our relationship as a whole and not bringing up past issues, which was what I liked about him. She still stands pretty firmly that she doesn't believe in counseling, even though she saw an IC years ago and said it did help. I think her problem is that she's been avoiding our problems for so long and as argued my points at every turn, that I think she doesn't want to go to counseling because she's afraid of being proven wrong. She's always been very strong minded and always likes things her way, and as much as I've always let her have her way on most things, the things I really disagree with always turn into an argument.

My biggest issue right now is getting her to open up and just talk about everything without her getting defensive and getting into an argument. That's one of the big reasons I haven't given up just yet. If I can just get her to open up, admit where she was wrong and just make an effort, I think we'll be ok. But she doesn't want to seem to do that.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

AtMyEnd said:


> So many of you regulars have probably seen my post about the problems with my marriage, or at least the recent problems. Long story short, I had and was caught in an EA that never got physical, my wife was caught texting with another man and from everything I've seen during my investigation, it was an EA that never got physical. More recently I found a suggestive text on her phone from a different man that she said was nothing more than an unsolicited text. Again, through my investigating I have found that it was nothing more than an unsolicited text.
> 
> What confuses me is this, for about 2 years now we have been having problems. Each time something has happened we have spoken about it and trying to work past things. Within the past couple weeks I have noticed her making an effort, showing more affection, talking more about random interests and not work or our problems, things like that. It hasn't been a great effort, but it's much more than I've seen. But then out of nowhere there's a mood swing where once again it seems like she doesn't want me around, and that mood swing can go on unprovoked for a couple days.
> 
> ...


It's in her nature.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> Thanks Jess. I know we have our issues, we've both made mistakes and bad decisions, but it really does come down to our communication, it's horrible and it has been. As far as counseling, the counselor we had seen was focused on moving forward on our relationship as a whole and not bringing up past issues, which was what I liked about him. She still stands pretty firmly that she doesn't believe in counseling, even though she saw an IC years ago and said it did help. I think her problem is that she's been avoiding our problems for so long and as argued my points at every turn, that I think she doesn't want to go to counseling because she's afraid of being proven wrong. She's always been very strong minded and always likes things her way, and as much as I've always let her have her way on most things, the things I really disagree with always turn into an argument.
> 
> That's not going to work out well for her then. She's married and needs to take your feelings/needs into consideration. I get that she's shut down, but her independent behavior is killing your marriage. It's time to let her know that you're no longer willing to live this way and she's got to meet you halfway here and go back to the MC, if she wants to stay married to you. But you need to hold up your end too- be nice to her, show her what's in it for her by working with you on your marriage (not saying you're not nice, just that resentment and hurt can impede success).
> 
> ...


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

AtMyEnd said:


> Thanks Jess. I know we have our issues, we've both made mistakes and bad decisions, but it really does come down to our communication, it's horrible and it has been. As far as counseling, the counselor we had seen was focused on moving forward on our relationship as a whole and not bringing up past issues, which was what I liked about him. She still stands pretty firmly that she doesn't believe in counseling, even though she saw an IC years ago and said it did help. I think her problem is that she's been avoiding our problems for so long and as argued my points at every turn, that I think she doesn't want to go to counseling because she's afraid of being proven wrong. She's always been very strong minded and always likes things her way, and as much as I've always let her have her way on most things, the things I really disagree with always turn into an argument.
> 
> My biggest issue right now is getting her to open up and just talk about everything without her getting defensive and getting into an argument. That's one of the big reasons I haven't given up just yet. If I can just get her to open up, admit where she was wrong and just make an effort, I think we'll be ok. But she doesn't want to seem to do that.


You are kinda in the same boat I am and my wife's ultra strong will is the problem. She will never admit to doing anything wrong, it's always Mr. *******'s fault. At this point, the probability of all of the sudden after years of admitting to nothing being her fault to actually owning at least part of the blame is pretty much nil. I'll give you props for trying but I think you're wasting your time. She is not going to go willingly into an environment where she could possibly be proven wrong.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

One of the single best things you can do for someone who is defiant and overly independent is to give them exactly what they say they want.

It rarely works out the way they expect.



AtMyEnd said:


> Thanks Jess. I know we have our issues, we've both made mistakes and bad decisions, but it really does come down to our communication, it's horrible and it has been. As far as counseling, the counselor we had seen was focused on moving forward on our relationship as a whole and not bringing up past issues, which was what I liked about him. She still stands pretty firmly that she doesn't believe in counseling, even though she saw an IC years ago and said it did help. I think her problem is that she's been avoiding our problems for so long and as argued my points at every turn, that I think she doesn't want to go to counseling because she's afraid of being proven wrong. She's always been very strong minded and always likes things her way, and as much as I've always let her have her way on most things, the things I really disagree with always turn into an argument.
> 
> My biggest issue right now is getting her to open up and just talk about everything without her getting defensive and getting into an argument. That's one of the big reasons I haven't given up just yet. If I can just get her to open up, admit where she was wrong and just make an effort, I think we'll be ok. But she doesn't want to seem to do that.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

jb02157 said:


> You are kinda in the same boat I am and my wife's ultra strong will is the problem. She will never admit to doing anything wrong, it's always Mr. *******'s fault. At this point, the probability of all of the sudden after years of admitting to nothing being her fault to actually owning at least part of the blame is pretty much nil. I'll give you props for trying but I think you're wasting your time. She is not going to go willingly into an environment where she could possibly be proven wrong.


Have you tried? I'm sure you have, but I mean, have you explained to her (or even better, had a MC explain to her) that independent behavior kills marriages? That interdependency is necessary for a marriage to thrive? I ask because independent behavior has been an issue in my marriage and it was only through Marriage Builders describing it as a MAJOR lovebuster that was hurting my love for my husband that he was finally able to see that I wasn't trying to CONTROL him, I just wanted to be treated like a partner and have him take my feelings into consideration like I do his (it comes more naturally to many women, obviously not your wife though).


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> One of the single best things you can do for someone who is defiant and overly independent is to give them exactly what they say they want.
> 
> Only after they clearly understand that independent behavior is destroying the marriage and that it isn't just the spouse trying to control them though. I think many people truly don't understand that difference, especially if they married later in life, which is increasingly more common.
> 
> It rarely works out the way they expect.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> Have you tried? I'm sure you have, but I mean, have you explained to her (or even better, had a MC explain to her) that independent behavior kills marriages? That interdependency is necessary for a marriage to thrive? I ask because independent behavior has been an issue in my marriage and it was only through Marriage Builders describing it as a MAJOR lovebuster that was hurting my love for my husband that he was finally able to see that I wasn't trying to CONTROL him, I just wanted to be treated like a partner and have him take my feelings into consideration like I do his (it comes more naturally to many women, obviously not your wife though).


Jessica, I wish you were right but she takes anything that I suggest whether it's MC or anything else as an attempt by me to control her. As you say, all I have ever wanted in this marriage is to be treated like a partner instead of a beast of burden. I want her love, always have, but I think after 27 years of a totally broken marriage I'm unlikely to get it and I'm not even sure at this point I would even want it if she did give it to me. I've spent so much time trying to fix this I'm not sure what else to do or what else to try that I think mentally I just gave up. 

I think back to the beginning when things were good before we were married. We worked with the precision of a Swiss watch. Now I realize that was only her attempt to get me to marry her. It was all fake. How do you fix it now??


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

jb02157 said:


> Jessica, I wish you were right but she takes anything that I suggest whether it's MC or anything else as an attempt by me to control her. As you say, all I have ever wanted in this marriage is to be treated like a partner instead of a beast of burden. I want her love, always have, but I think after 27 years of a totally broken marriage I'm unlikely to get it and I'm not even sure at this point I would even want it if she did give it to me. I've spent so much time trying to fix this I'm not sure what else to do or what else to try that I think mentally I just gave up.
> 
> I think back to the beginning when things were good before we were married. We worked with the precision of a Swiss watch. Now I realize that was only her attempt to get me to marry her. It was all fake. How do you fix it now??


She sounds dreadful, I am so sorry. I do admire your staying for the sake of your children though. I hope you find great joy in them, it sounds to me like you do.


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## stixx (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> She sounds dreadful, I am so sorry. I do admire your staying for the sake of your children though


 @jb02157 is staying married because he thinks he'll be wiped out financially, he's posted as much several times.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

stixx said:


> @jb02157 is staying married because he thinks he'll be wiped out financially, he's posted as much several times.


I've seen that, and I think that's a big reason why many people stay in unhappy marriages, especially if kids are involved. There really are only 2 choices- fix the situation (even if that means leaving it) or accepting it.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You are a talker not a doer and your wife knows this very well.


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## shrah25 (Mar 22, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> Thanks Jess. I know we have our issues, we've both made mistakes and bad decisions, but it really does come down to our communication, it's horrible and it has been. As far as counseling, the counselor we had seen was focused on moving forward on our relationship as a whole and not bringing up past issues, which was what I liked about him. She still stands pretty firmly that she doesn't believe in counseling, even though she saw an IC years ago and said it did help. I think her problem is that she's been avoiding our problems for so long and as argued my points at every turn, that I think she doesn't want to go to counseling because she's afraid of being proven wrong. She's always been very strong minded and always likes things her way, and as much as I've always let her have her way on most things, the things I really disagree with always turn into an argument.
> 
> My biggest issue right now is getting her to open up and just talk about everything without her getting defensive and getting into an argument. That's one of the big reasons I haven't given up just yet. If I can just get her to open up, admit where she was wrong and just make an effort, I think we'll be ok. But she doesn't want to seem to do that.


Hi @AtMyEnd

Thanks for all your messages. 

There have been a number of points that various members have made which are valid but I'd like to tackle this from a slightly different angle. 

What you're going through is not easy. When a relationship is not experiencing true love and passion and there is poor communication, then it can be extremely painful and bring out the greatest fears within us.

Firstly I honour you for wanting to make an effort here to improve. Lots of guys walk out on this situation so your stickability is to be admired. 

I think to help resolve your situation, it's important to get to the heart of what's real. The short of it is that, IMO, your partners needs weren't being met. In my work, i've never come across a couple where each partners needs were being met at high levels and then they still felt the need to cheat or engage in EA's. 

So the first question you need to ask yourself if - what does she truly need? What is it that she's screaming out for? 

Secondly, there has been mention of the difficulties you have faced communicating with her. The most important thing here is to ensure that an environment is created where she feels safe enough to vocalise her thoughts and emotions and feel truly understood. She needs to feel like you aren't going to get defensive or lose the plot if she was to speak her truth. 
This is often the hardest part here because men, in general, really battle with criticism because it ultimately brings out their greatest fear that they aren't good enough. Hence, all the defensiveness which creates a cycle of communication that never serves either party. So in this situation, you need to drop any sort of defensiveness and come purely from your heart. Listen to the messages, the underlying messages and come from a place where you are serving her.

Thirdly - you mentioned that she changes her tune regularly which ultimately confuses you. This is just the nature of the feminine energy - it does go through peaks and troughs and its important for you to stay strong, constant and as her rock during all this time. Show her that you are prepared to fight tooth and nail for her if you truly love her.

Remember, love is about giving, not getting. As long as you are stuck in the mode of "she's not doing this, she's not doing that", then you playing the game at a very low level and you are setting the wrong foundations. 

In my personal opinion, given the length of time you have been together and the fact that you have kids, you owe it to all parties involved to give everything you can for the next 60 days minimum. Serve from the heart, meet her needs in the way that she needs it and if at the end of that time, things aren't shifting, then you can choose to make plans for the future.

Hope that all makes sense.

Thanks


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

shrah25 said:


> Hi @AtMyEnd
> 
> Thanks for all your messages.
> 
> ...


It does make sense. And the main reason I have been backing off lately and not pushing any issues is because she's told me that she needs to feel peace and to feel comfortable with our relationship again before she feels she can start trying to work on things. After reading and posting on these forums, and reading other articles and books, I do see where I have gone wrong trying to work on things and I understand that now. Lately when we do talk about things I don't offer up my opinion as easily and openly as I used to, instead I just listen to her. If she asks a question or asks for any opinion I do give it to her, but I'm not as free with my thoughts as I used to be. Since I've been doing that I have seen a difference, but like I said, it's the random mood swings for no known reason that throw me off.

Personally I have dropped all expectations of her other than the typical things regarding our house and our son. That has seemed to help a lot with my attitude. I have told her that she needs to do the same, but as must as she's agreed I don't think she has. Her thinking always seems to revert back to thinking about how I used to be in the past before I really started making an effort for all this. I do plan on giving things some more time, most likely through the summer and fall, we always seem to spend the most time together and have the most fun together during the spring, summer and early fall, so I'll see what happens through then and go from there.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Marc878 said:


> You are a talker not a doer and your wife knows this very well.


I know I've become more of a talker than a doer over the course of our problems. I was never like that before and it's something that now that I realize it, I'm working to change it.


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## shrah25 (Mar 22, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> It does make sense. And the main reason I have been backing off lately and not pushing any issues is because she's told me that she needs to feel peace and to feel comfortable with our relationship again before she feels she can start trying to work on things. After reading and posting on these forums, and reading other articles and books, I do see where I have gone wrong trying to work on things and I understand that now. Lately when we do talk about things I don't offer up my opinion as easily and openly as I used to, instead I just listen to her. If she asks a question or asks for any opinion I do give it to her, but I'm not as free with my thoughts as I used to be. Since I've been doing that I have seen a difference, but like I said, it's the random mood swings for no known reason that throw me off.
> 
> Personally I have dropped all expectations of her other than the typical things regarding our house and our son. That has seemed to help a lot with my attitude. I have told her that she needs to do the same, but as must as she's agreed I don't think she has. Her thinking always seems to revert back to thinking about how I used to be in the past before I really started making an effort for all this. I do plan on giving things some more time, most likely through the summer and fall, we always seem to spend the most time together and have the most fun together during the spring, summer and early fall, so I'll see what happens through then and go from there.


Great stuff.

Out of curiosity, what's an example of how you used to offer your opinion up in the past?

Thanks


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

shrah25 said:


> Great stuff.
> 
> Out of curiosity, what's an example of how you used to offer your opinion up in the past?
> 
> Thanks


Basically if she was telling me about a problem at work or venting about a person at work, I'd offer up my opinion of how she could try and "fix" it or I'd give her my opinion of the person she was venting about. A lot of that revolved around her job, she loves her job but has been very stressed over it and very over worked. I think she's always felt that as a young female attorney that she's needed to prove herself and go above and beyond in everything. But her firm has also made a lot of promises to her that they haven't followed through with which really bothers me because I know how hard she works. I have told her during conversations how I think they're taking advantage of her and she needs to step up and say something and have always given her my honest thoughts on all of this, which in turn always started an argument about how I just don't understand "her world".

Ironically enough, she just got a new job at a different firm, basically because of all the failed promises and everything else over the years. She was talking about all of it with myself and a friend the other night and all the reasons she talked about of why she was leaving were almost word for word what I've been telling her the last couple years. I just sat there listening and thinking to myself "really, when I said that I was mean and didn't understand your world" lol, but no I didn't say anything, I just listened. She did look over at me a couple times while she was talking almost looking for a reaction from me about what she was saying but I didn't have one.

She's always been a very strong minded person. It's something I always loved about her and admired, up until it started getting in the way of our communication and relationship. But again, that's one of the reason I've stopped offering up my opinion on things unless I'm asked for it. I understand now that when she talks or vents about things that are bothering her, she not looking for an opinion or a solution, she just needs to vent and I need to stop trying to fix things that I have no control over.


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## shrah25 (Mar 22, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> Basically if she was telling me about a problem at work or venting about a person at work, I'd offer up my opinion of how she could try and "fix" it or I'd give her my opinion of the person she was venting about. A lot of that revolved around her job, she loves her job but has been very stressed over it and very over worked. I think she's always felt that as a young female attorney that she's needed to prove herself and go above and beyond in everything. But her firm has also made a lot of promises to her that they haven't followed through with which really bothers me because I know how hard she works. I have told her during conversations how I think they're taking advantage of her and she needs to step up and say something and have always given her my honest thoughts on all of this, which in turn always started an argument about how I just don't understand "her world".
> 
> Ironically enough, she just got a new job at a different firm, basically because of all the failed promises and everything else over the years. She was talking about all of it with myself and a friend the other night and all the reasons she talked about of why she was leaving were almost word for word what I've been telling her the last couple years. I just sat there listening and thinking to myself "really, when I said that I was mean and didn't understand your world" lol, but no I didn't say anything, I just listened. She did look over at me a couple times while she was talking almost looking for a reaction from me about what she was saying but I didn't have one.
> 
> She's always been a very strong minded person. It's something I always loved about her and admired, up until it started getting in the way of our communication and relationship. But again, that's one of the reason I've stopped offering up my opinion on things unless I'm asked for it. I understand now that when she talks or vents about things that are bothering her, she not looking for an opinion or a solution, she just needs to vent and I need to stop trying to fix things that I have no control over.


Yup, I'm glad you've learnt the lesson.

When women offload their problems, generally they are saying "listen to me and show me you care and understand". Most men fail badly at this and it's no wonder arguments start all the time!

Anyway, keep learning my friend. You're doing great. It's a painful process but it's worth it in the long run - I promise.

Cheers
Sri


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

So just a little vent here and I guess an update to things, lol. My wife has been away for the past week with a friend on a trip the two of them had been trying to plan for about 10 years and just never found the time to take. Personally I did feel it was a good idea to get away with one of her best and oldest friends, I figure that with everything going on in our relationship it would be a nice break for both of us and it would give her a chance to relax and reset.

So the day she left for her trip was her birthday, so the night before we celebrated, nothing crazy, just us, our son and a close friend. I don't think she really expected anything given how things have been and the fact that months ago she had pretty much completely blown off my birthday. So we were just sitting around having a couple drinks and I whispered to my son to go get mommies present and her birthday cards. He did and kind of snuck up on her and gave them to her, he then told her to wait to open them until after the cake. She opened her present, which was really from our son, and read his card and gave him big hugs, kisses and thank him. Then she opened the card from me, again nothing crazy or romantic, just a nice card with a message in it about how proud of her I am because of her new job that she's excited about, how I think this is going to be a great year for her, and that I loved her. She read the card, put it down and continued right with the conversation we were having prior, no smile, thank you, kiss....nothing. It didn't phase me much because her attitude towards pretty much anything I've said or done recently has been fairly dismissive most of the time. It did bother me a little that she basically didn't acknowledge anything, but whatever.

So the next morning she left for her trip and it's just been me and our young son for the week. Since she's been gone I have not initiated any conversation with her, my feelings were to just let her be and relax. Surprisingly she has been texting every morning "good morning", we'd chat a little bit about what her plans for the day are and anything going on at home that was interesting and that would be it. Occasionally through the course of each day she would text asking how my day was going or sending me a picture of her, I would respond but the same as I have been doing, minimally. As the week went on our conversations when she texted got better and we'd chat longer. There were a couple times when the conversation was going well and she'd say something and the timing was right so I'd throw out a flirty little comment about what she said. And as usual, the comment would be dismissed and she'd either change topics or just go right on with the conversation. Again, it didn't phase me much since that's just the way things have been but I had figured the timing and mood of the conversation was right so I threw out the comments. We were chatting last night before bed and I had asked her if she was sad that it was the last night of her trip, she said no that she was ready to come home and felt good. I told her that was great and that I'm happy that she'll be home again, she replied back "thank you" but that was it.

The one thing that has bothered me a little bit has been how she hasn't seemed to want to talk to our son since she's been gone. She Skyped with him the first day she was gone and she asked how he was doing when we'd text, but that was it. Typically when she's away or we're away together without him she Skypes with him everyday and sometimes calls to talk to him each day as well, but not this time. The only real reason this all bothers me is it just seems like she totally disconnected herself from her life for a week, which don't get me wrong I do feel it was a good thing for her, but it's just odd that she hasn't wanted to talk to him at least. 

So now she'll be home from her trip tonight and I'm really curious to see how things will be. Things had been improving some before she left, but I'm not expecting much. What I'm even more curious about it how next week will be. Our son is off from school and going to stay at my in-laws for the week because we both have to work. This is another reason why her not seeming to want to talk to our bothers me, she's been away for a week and now he's going to be away for a week. I'd think that she'd want to get as much time with him as she could but it doesn't seem that way. But anyway, I'm curious to see how next week will be when it's just her and I with no kid and no kid responsibilities. I'm not planning anything but I think I will throw out there a couple times of meeting up for dinner or drinks after work. Just something to get the two of us out of the house together and acting like adults, lol. But we'll see how things go, hopefully they go better than they have been.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Her detachment from your son is concerning. I don't think your plan to back off is going to work here. I hope I'm wrong, but it seems to me like you're losing her. The two of you have serious issues concerning infidelity and likely a lot of hurt surrounding that. You need to get back to your MC, or another marital coach who can help you guys heal and restore intimacy in your marriage. Your plan isn't working. She's trying to detach from you, is how it seems to me.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Her detachment from your son is concerning. I don't think your plan to back off is going to work here. I hope I'm wrong, but it seems to me like you're losing her. The two of you have serious issues concerning infidelity and likely a lot of hurt surrounding that. You need to get back to your MC, or another marital coach who can help you guys heal and restore intimacy in your marriage. Your plan isn't working. She's trying to detach from you, is how it seems to me.


But see that's the odd thing about this past week, we've not only texted more with each other during the day then we have been recently, but the we've been having actual conversations about things and she's been the one to initiate all of it. So in a sense it feels like since she's been away she has been trying to reconnect with me on a certain level more than she has been, but yes the lack of communication with our son does bother me. Maybe she did need just a week away to relax her mind and kind of disconnect herself from everything and only concentrate on herself. I mean really, from time to time it's good for everyone's mental health to just completely detach from their realities for a little. I guess I'll see what happens and how things go when she gets back tonight.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

That is all well and good, but when you took it a flirty direction, there was no response.

You do not hold any romantic interest for her; you are her roommate; someone she can have friendly text chat with...you are in the friend zone.

Jessica is right about one thing: your marriage is on life support.

Sorry, brother, but I am not real optimistic at this point.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> That is all well and good, but when you took it a flirty direction, there was no response.
> 
> You do not hold any romantic interest for her; you are her roommate


Yep.


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## BradWesley2 (Jul 15, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> That is all well and good, but when you took it a flirty direction, there was no response.
> 
> You do not hold any romantic interest for her; you are her roommate; someone she can have friendly text chat with...you are in the friend zone.
> 
> ...


Your wife appears to be suffering from an extreme case of ILYBINILWY syndrome.

I agree with farside and Jessica that your marriage is on life support, and your wife may be getting ready to pull the plug.

Since she is an attorney, I would speak to an attorney first, one who doesn't know her. Let him/her explain all your options, then file. You're already in an adversarial relationship.

There's nothing wrong with a sneak attack to blindside her.

Good luck.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

I wouldn't give up because your wife is not in love. You can turn it around but you need help and a plan.

You're in the phase that they talk about when they say marriage is hard work. 

Couples who've been married for decades typically hit a period where they fall out of love. The ones who stay married get through it. 

But you really have to want it and be willing to do the work.


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## BradWesley2 (Jul 15, 2016)

Jessica38 said:


> I wouldn't give up because your wife is not in love. You can turn it around but you need help and a plan.
> 
> You're in the phase that they talk about when they say marriage is hard work.
> 
> ...


They have been down the MC road and she blew it off after a few meetings. It takes two to tango.Why squander good money on shopping around for another MC, when she's not interested.

Best bet is to apply that money towards a damn good divorce
attorney. 

Time is too short on this planet to waste it on someone who's not willing to meet him halfway.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Jessica38 said:


> But you really have to want it and be willing to do the work.


If she doesn't really, truly want it, you will see it in her eyes... up to that point believe in everything your relationship can deliver.

After that point, and those eyes tell you she is gone, let go of all you cannot control... and commit to it.

It's a painful walk to get through it, but if she truly doesn't want to be there with and for you, letting go is better for you both.

Love yourself more at all times... you will succeed no matter where your path leads.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

BradWesley2 said:


> They have been down the MC road and she blew it off after a few meetings. It takes two to tango.Why squander good money on shopping around for another MC, when she's not interested.
> 
> Best bet is to apply that money towards a damn good divorce
> attorney.
> ...


The OP admits he contributed to the issues in the marriage. An EA can be very damaging. I think he owes it to his wife to have the "I'm unhappy, we either go back to MC/marital coaching, or we part ways" talk. In this whole thread, I see him trying to make it better but not communicating to her that he's at the end of his rope (unless I'm mistaken?).


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> That is all well and good, but when you took it a flirty direction, there was no response.
> 
> You do not hold any romantic interest for her; you are her roommate; someone she can have friendly text chat with...you are in the friend zone.
> 
> ...


I get it and I feel the same way. However, she returned from her trip Friday night and her attitude towards me and our relationship seem totally different. It hasn't magically changed or anything but her responses to things are totally on the positive side. It's a little weird, but I'm going to roll with it and see what happens. Maybe a week anyway gave her time to think about things, clear her head and relax. We'll see how it goes.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> The OP admits he contributed to the issues in the marriage. An EA can be very damaging. I think he owes it to his wife to have the "I'm unhappy, we either go back to MC/marital coaching, or we part ways" talk. In this whole thread, I see him trying to make it better but not communicating to her that he's at the end of his rope (unless I'm mistaken?).


No, I have told her a few times that if things don't start to change that I'm done. During one of our conversations shortly after I saw the text from the other man I told her that I thought it was time to talk to attorneys. When she ask me why, I told her about getting a divorce. That was when I started to see things start to change in a positive way. She still has mood swings and there are good and bad days, but I have seen some improvement in her.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Brother, unless you are going to turn over a new leaf with regards to transparency, the two of you will have built the proper foundation.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Brother, unless you are going to turn over a new leaf with regards to transparency, the two of you will have built the proper foundation.


All I can say right now is that since she got back from vacation this past Friday things have been totally different, and in a good way. I don't want to have any talks about our issues or what we need to do about them just yet. I need to see how things go and if they stay on the same path as they seem to be right now. I think that if I bring things up right now it may just push her back again like it has before. There will be a long talk at some time in the near future but knowing her and how she reacts to things, it has to be at the right time and it can't be forced.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Wow, I'm confused all over again LOL. I know I just said earlier that things have been totally different since my wife got back from vacation, and they really have. And it's because of that and what I just found that really confuses me.

So she had been away and came back Friday night, our son has off from school this week so he's staying with my in-laws for a week. My in-laws live 8 hours away from us and I drove in there this past weekend, I drove up Saturday and back Sunday. My wife had told me when she first told me I had to take him there, that she wasn't going to go for the ride. She said that she was going to have too much work to get caught up on since she had been away for a week. Then when she got back on Friday night, she was talking about how she wanted to get the house in order and the guest room cleaned up for when her parents bring our son back and stay a few days for Easter. This struck me as odd since it was a different reason than what she originally told me. When we were saying goodbye before I left for her parents she then told me that she really just wasn't in the mood to go. So now I have 3 different stories, and it seems the last one was the truth. But really, why lie, I don't care if she didn't want to go, I didn't want to go.

So know here's the real confusion. With all the BS that's been going on, before I left for my trip, I set up a hidden camera in the bedroom connected to our surveillance system. I also disconnected the feed from the DVR to the TV so if she tried to look at it, she wouldn't be able to see anything and possibly think the system wasn't on. So everything is still recording but there's no way she can see any of the video feeds to see that I added the bedroom camera. I also left a VAR hidden in the kitchen, in our house any time anyone ever comes over at some point or another they're always in the kitchen, so I'm covered. I have a camera on my driveway, one on my front door, one on the back door and now one in the bedroom.

So this afternoon I go to check the video. I bring up the playback screen and select Saturday's date. The screen shows 1 hour blocks that you can pick to start from and those blocks show up green if there is recorded video. So I bring up the screen, and from 4pm to 10pm on Saturday shows no recorded video. So I go to 3:30 and fast forward, around 5 to 4 I see her in front of the TV looking around and then she walks away. She comes back a minute later, climbs up on something, reaches behind the TV and the feed goes out, she unplugged the cameras. Right after that the video starts again at 10:15pm with her stepping down after plugging them back in. So I run downstairs to get the VAR, I download the audio because it's easier to listen to and mark things on my laptop. I didn't have much time so I jumped around it at 15-20 minute intervals, if I didn't hear any voices within 30 seconds I jumped again. I heard when I walked out the door to leave on my trip and I heard her on the phone with me around 10:30 at night, all I heard between those two times were my one dog walking around his cage. The dog is only in the cage when we're not home because he's still a puppy and still loves to get into trouble. I do need to listen to every second of the recording but from what I've heard so far it sounds like she left the house.

When I talked to her that night I asked her what she ended up doing because she had told me that a couple different friends and wanted to get together with her, and she told me she didn't go out anywhere other than to run a couple errands. So the big question and confusion now is if she did leave the house, which it seems like she did because I haven't heard anything on the VAR, why unplug the cameras? Hearing that the dog was in his cage tells me that she definitely left the house. She told me that she was probably going to run a couple errands. But why disconnect the cameras? The only thing that I can think of, and if you go back through the thread you can see the post, a few weeks ago she made all kinds of accusations at me about how she "knows" I'm spying on her, and even though I proved her wrong on all of the accusations she still told me she didn't believe me. So could she just be testing me again? I don't know, but once again I'm not telling her that I know what I know and I'm just collecting evidence. My next step is to find the opportunity to get into her phone again and see if there's anything there.


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## Voltaire2013 (Sep 22, 2013)

AME,

Care to update given your recent posts on other threads?

Cheers,
V(13)


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## emmasmith (Aug 11, 2016)

Tried couples counseling! Counseling is the best way to bring your declining relation back to the loving state.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Voltaire2013 said:


> AME,
> 
> Care to update given your recent posts on other threads?
> 
> ...


Well surprisingly since Easter things have been pretty good up until recently when her dismissive attitude started coming back. I had thought that things really were finally on the right track. Since my last post I have gone through the audio from the VAR’s and there was nothing, I heard her walking around and leaving the house. Looking at the video again I can see that car had moved and I did hear her come back into the house later and the sound of rustling plastic bags. So once again there is no evidence of anything going on other than just really odd behavior so maybe unplugging the cameras was another test to see if I’d say something proving to her that I was spying on her, I don’t know.

She started a new job and has been very happy and hasn’t seemed as depressed as she had been. The ironic thing is that her old job was the number one source of our arguments. She’s an incredibly hard worker and always puts in the extra effort, she always feels that as a woman in a male dominated field that she always needs to go that extra mile to prove herself. For years her old firm told her things and made promises that they never followed through on and it upset me as much as it upset her. My mistake was that I always voiced my opinion about how I felt they were taking advantage of her to her. She always told me that I just didn’t understand how her industry worked and that I just don’t get it. That’s where the irony comes into play, all the reasons that she left and everything I heard her tell other people about why she left her old firm were the exact things that I’ve been telling her for years that always started arguments. I didn’t say anything when I heard her say these things recently because I didn’t want to start anything, I just kind of laughed it off to myself. I am extremely proud of her and I have let her know that and I’m happy that she made the move and seems happy about it. Our relationship and conversations really did improve and it started to feel like a relationship again up until about a week ago.

I had surgery and was pretty much immobile for a few days. It was an outpatient procedure so she brought me to the hospital and then went out for lunch with a friend but was back just as I was coming out of anesthesia. She brought me home, got me settled in and then went out to run errands. Our son was with my parents and they dropped him off around 7:00pm that night, she didn’t get home until about a half hour after that. The next day after our son got on the bus she went to the gym, when she got back she got changed and went to meet a friend for lunch and then make a couple other stops. She picked up our son from school, made her stops and again got home after 7:00pm. That weekend was pretty much the same thing, take our son to his sports and then run errands, some with him and some without him but each day not returning home until early evening. There was nothing suspicious about her being gone all the time but I did think it was odd that here I am not really able to move around the first two days and then fairly limited the next two and she was never there. I’m not saying that I thought I should’ve had constant attention or anything but at least be around a little bit but she wasn’t. I didn’t say anything about this to her because I knew it would just cause an argument.

The day I went back to work her dismissive attitude towards me started to come back. I didn’t say anything and just kept doing what I needed to do. We spent the following Friday night together having drinks, talking and laughing, the following night we had friends over and it was like I wasn’t even there. Anything I said to her got dismissed, during conversations if I said something she would then say something basically changing topics from what I was talking about, if I put my arm around her or something she would quickly think of something she needed to get and walk away, it was just odd considering things had been better.

The following morning she started an argument about where something was for our son. I told her where I last saw it but she was basically yelling at me because I didn’t know where it was. Then the argument took a turn towards us and she asked me what my problem was with her. I really had no intentions of starting anything and I am a little upset with myself that I let her get to me but I told her that I’m tired of her dismissive, unaffectionate, withdrawn attitude towards me and I was just done. She asked what I meant by how I said I was done and asked if I was leaving her. I told her that I was getting close to that and that I’m tired of her always treating me like I did something wrong and that I need to make it up to her when I haven’t done anything wrong. And then I told her how for the past year she has been the one causing the problems and not me but she keeps either throwing it back on me or giving me the attitude that I did something wrong and it’s my job to fix it. I ended the conversation with how I’m just tired of it and I can’t keep living like this.

Since then we haven’t really spoken much, just household and things about our son. I know that I shouldn’t have said what I said because I knew it would just cause more problems but at the same time I’m happy I said it. I’m not going to apologize for it, I’m not going to try and smooth things over, I’m just going to keep living my life and see how things progress.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

emmasmith said:


> Tried couples counseling! Counseling is the best way to bring your declining relation back to the loving state.




We had gone to counseling back when things first got bad. We went to four sessions and then she told me she didn’t want to go because she didn’t believe in it and just wasn’t comfortable being there. Both myself and our counselor could tell that she wasn’t being completely open and didn’t want to be there in the first place. I didn’t really argue with her about not wanting to go anymore, if both people don’t share an interest in counseling it’s kind of pointless.


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## TheRealMcCoy (Apr 13, 2017)

Your wife hates you. There's no ILYBINILWY. There's no L at all. And there won't be. You are doing the 180 correctly except for one HUGE mistake: She's not coming back. I don't know why it's implied that they can. They don't. And I see no reason to believe you will be the exception. 



AtMyEnd said:


> Her thinking always seems to revert back to thinking about how I used to be in the past before I really started making an effort for all this.


BINGO! Good luck changing that. It will always be there. The fear. It will never go way. And EVERYTHING you do confirms that you will not change. Protect yourself brother. If she doesn't love you , she's not REAL concerned about your happiness. Plan accordingly.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

TheRealMcCoy said:


> Your wife hates you. There's no ILYBINILWY. There's no L at all. And there won't be. You are doing the 180 correctly except for one HUGE mistake: She's not coming back. I don't know why it's implied that they can. They don't. And I see no reason to believe you will be the exception.
> 
> 
> 
> BINGO! Good luck changing that. It will always be there. The fear. It will never go way. And EVERYTHING you do confirms that you will not change. Protect yourself brother. If she doesn't love you , she's not REAL concerned about your happiness. Plan accordingly.


Well the interesting thing is that since I pulled the 180, she has been coming back. Yes there are still issues, issues that are not that easy to just push aside, but for the most part her attitude has changed for the better. All the BS she seems to being pulling now seems be a test to see if I'll get upset or start questioning her or whatever. She's seen and acknowledged the changes in me and I have done the same with her. Yes I still question if the changes in her are real just like she does with me, only she chooses to test me to see if they really are real. Nothing happened in our marriage that was a total deal breaker. We both caught each other texting and chatting with other people, we both disconnected because of the others attitude, and we both failed at communicating our feelings. 

I have planned accordingly and am ready to be on my own again if that is the way things ultimately end up. During all of this I have been working on my personal finances, down to how much child support will be and the split of our assets. Other than missing seeing my son everyday, the transition into single life will be relatively seamless at this point. But with the changes I have seen from her compared to the way things between us were, there has been a major improvement.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> Well the interesting thing is that *since I pulled the 180, she has been coming back*. Yes there are still issues, issues that are not that easy to just push aside, but for the most part *her attitude has changed for the better.* All the BS she seems to being pulling now seems be a test to see if I'll get upset or start questioning her or whatever. She's seen and acknowledged the changes in me and I have done the same with her. Yes I still question if the changes in her are real just like she does with me, only she chooses to test me to see if they really are real. Nothing happened in our marriage that was a total deal breaker. We both caught each other texting and chatting with other people, we both disconnected because of the others attitude, and we both failed at communicating our feelings.
> 
> I have planned accordingly and am ready to be on my own again if that is the way things ultimately end up. During all of this I have been working on my personal finances, down to how much child support will be and the split of our assets. Other than missing seeing my son everyday, the transition into single life will be relatively seamless at this point. But with the changes I have seen from her compared to the way things between us were, *there has been a major improvement*.


Is this all since yesterday, because your post from yesterday afternoon doesn't reflect any of this.

Your feelings about your marriage seem to yo-yo depending on how your wife is treating you That Moment. Do you think that's fair or am I reading things wrong?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Maybe this is about the best the two of you are capable of.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

GTdad said:


> Is this all since yesterday, because your post from yesterday afternoon doesn't reflect any of this.
> 
> Your feelings about your marriage seem to yo-yo depending on how your wife is treating you That Moment. Do you think that's fair or am I reading things wrong?


No this is not all since yesterday, my post from yesterday is from the last week, before that things have improved a lot. But as much as they may have improved they still are not great and no where near what a marriage should be. My point in my last post is that as much as there are still problems in my marriage and there have still been ups and downs, there has also been improvements, more so then there have been problems.


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## lisacolorado (May 2, 2017)

Too Good to Leave is a great book. It helped me think. I'm still too chickenhearted to do what I want to but the book is good.


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## TheRealMcCoy (Apr 13, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> Well the interesting thing is that since I pulled the 180, she has been coming back.


Please understand that I am not just trying to win an argument. I LIVED this. I went through months of trying to make myself a better person. Same as you. She was playing along. But I'm not perfect. I slipped up. As soon as I did, she ripped me a new one. That's when I realized they don't come back with the 180. They're just happy your not pestering them and everything is nice nice. You're happy, they're happy...

Go ahead. Shake things up. Not in a bad way. In a "I'm glad things are so cool right now, but it still gets a little bad sometimes. Let's talk about it" way. Make it a little more serious than playing nice with each other and see what happens. I hope I'm wrong. I hope she plays along and tries to better your relationship. Counseling? More time together? Better sex? Something. 

But,"hey, this is nice not having to deal with the fact that our marriage is over" can work too. Just be sure you know what you're dealing with.

Good luck.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

TheRealMcCoy said:


> Please understand that I am not just trying to win an argument. I LIVED this. I went through months of trying to make myself a better person. Same as you. She was playing along. But I'm not perfect. I slipped up. As soon as I did, she ripped me a new one. That's when I realized they don't come back with the 180. They're just happy your not pestering them and everything is nice nice. You're happy, they're happy...
> 
> Go ahead. Shake things up. Not in a bad way. In a "I'm glad things are so cool right now, but it still gets a little bad sometimes. Let's talk about it" way. Make it a little more serious than playing nice with each other and see what happens. I hope I'm wrong. I hope she plays along and tries to better your relationship. Counseling? More time together? Better sex? Something.
> 
> ...



I know you're not trying to win an argument, and honestly you're the type of person I want feedback from. Right now my situation is a bit strange, what's happened on both sides has happened and it hasn't been brought up in a while which I'm happy about. In the past every time we tried to talk about anything our past problems would always end up be throw at each other in spite, that has stopped which is something that I see as a major step in the right direction.

Yes in the past while I've been working on myself if I slipped up about something she would say something to throw it in my face but that hasn't happened in now in months along with a few other little spiteful habits she's has, they've been non existent recently which I do see as a good thing. Whether it means our relationship is actually improving or if she's just given up and going along for the ride I don't know yet. Even the way she tests me from time to time like I've posted recently, I do see it as a good thing. She's told me in the past about how she always feels like I'm watching her and monitoring her and whatever else and that's a main reason why she feels uncomfortable and can't open up about things because she thinks that I'll jump to conclusions like I've done in the past. So now she tests me to see if I still will and I haven't, her testing me is not only a good reinforcement for her but for me as well.

So yes at times things still seem really screwed up but I do think that they've improved in a lot of ways. And in all honesty right now it doesn't really matter to me anymore if things do work out or not. Yes I want them to but they don't have to. What I do want is that if things do end, they at least end on a good note with little to no animosity between us. Because of our son we're going to be in each other's lives a lot for at least the next 12 years, we need to at the very least have a good relationship for his sake.


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## TheRealMcCoy (Apr 13, 2017)

Keep up the 180. It saved my life. MY wife didn't come back because of it. It doesn't mean they don't.

And I am living a (mostly) happy, healthy life right now. I learned from my mistakes as a husband. We get along. We have fun. Our family is together. I live my life. She lives hers. That works for me. Sounds like it could for you. Just be REALLY careful trying to read her intent. Be careful trying to judge her heart. 

Good luck.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You haven't mentioned anything about the ups and downs of your sex life or any books you have read. Could you be specific and give us a heads up on these two things?


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Chaparral said:


> You haven't mentioned anything about the ups and downs of your sex life or any books you have read. Could you be specific and give us a heads up on these two things?


Our sex life has been as up and down as our marriage. Sex was great up until our son was born 6 years ago, after that there was a big decline, maybe 2-3 times per month, sometimes more. That has held pretty steady ever since then. She does have a thyroid issue which from what I've read can cause a decrease in sexual desire and she works a lot and is always stressed about work. One of our problems is that I want sex, at least once a week, but she always says she's tired or she's stressed or something else. There are nights where I'll make clearly suggestive comments to her trying to spur things on, and an hour later she's upstairs cuddling in bed with our son and falling asleep. I've told her how this bothers me because she falls asleep with him in our bed almost every night and it pretty much kills any chance of anything ever happening. Her response is always that she just feels stressed and cuddling with him comforts her. I've brought up how maybe she should cuddle with me every now and then and she tells me how it's just not the same.

I know she's stressed about work and the problems we're having with our marriage but something has to give. I've stopped trying and asking for sex as she says that sometimes stresses her out more. I do pass little suggestive comments from time to time during conversation and that has helped. I still don't initiate but things have picked up a little.


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