# WHY is sex such a problem?



## Kathrynthegreat (Apr 23, 2012)

I have heard repeatedly that the biggest cause of divorce in North America is financial problems, but listening to this forum and other people, it seems like sex is the main issue. It certainly was for us.

Why is that? Why is it so hard for two people to keep their sex life in line over a long period of time? Also, do you think this is a relatively new phenomenon, or has it always been this way and got swept under the rug because divorce was frowned upon?


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## CWM0842 (Dec 8, 2011)

Dunno, ask my wife. It doesn't make sense to me either. Could be the proliferation of rom coms and porn. Unrealistic expectations on either or both sides. (I'm being facetious, partially)


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Huge issue. I think it's largely a disconnect between the genders, but hell, I don't know.

Maybe it's because it's the most intimate act a couple can do, and when the rest of things fall apart, that's going to fall apart, too? But that's post hoc ergo propter hoc


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## Skate Daddy 9 (Sep 19, 2011)

I don't know, I just keep thinking that I must not be that good at it and that is why she is not coming back for more? Who knows?


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## Mr B (Feb 6, 2009)

Over time people get bored of having sex with the same person year in and year out. They like being married, like having kids and being in a family but they just lose interest in the sex. They stay married despite this because divorce causes so much collateral damage to loved ones, and is expensive and drops the standard of living for all concerned especially kids. Some fear they can't make it alone or feel they are no longer able to attract another partner should they leave the marriage.

So people end up staying together even though sex is either terrible or non existent. Its very common.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Ah, Mr. B is in the house, with his usual platitudes.

Mr. B really wants the new girls.

But most of us learn to explore and enjoy our partners more and more every year.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Kathrynthegreat said:


> I have heard repeatedly that the biggest cause of divorce in North America is financial problems, but listening to this forum and other people, it seems like sex is the main issue. It certainly was for us.
> 
> Why is that?


Some days I think that people with mismatched libidos have a fatal attraction for each other.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

jokersvillage.com said:


> My wife and I went to the state fair and one of the first exhibits we stopped at was the breeding bulls.
> 
> We went up to the first pen and there was a sign attached that said, 'THIS BULL MATED 50 TIMES LAST YEAR'. My wife playfully nudged me in the ribs, smiled and said, 'He mated 50 times last year.'
> 
> ...


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

LOL Working


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

I think it varies from couple to couple depending on the issues they have going on. It could be a number of things.


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

Kathrynthegreat said:


> Why is it so hard for two people to keep their sex life in line over a long period of time? Also, do you think this is a relatively new phenomenon, or has it always been this way and got swept under the rug because divorce was frowned upon?


From my perspective, it's a new phenomenon. 

'Sex' for me always meant intercourse. It never meant all these other 'sex acts' that have appeared and become common place over the last 40 years. 

Oddly, I was reading a classic novel this weekend written in the 1960's where the characters spoke of "taking the man by mouth" but never gave it a name... and they way the subject was treated it was as if society didn't speak of these things, that it might be shameful...

compare _that_ to what's on the best seller's list this summer... 

Also, divorce has become far more common place in our society over the last 60 years.


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## Matt1720 (May 7, 2012)

When one spouse (take a wild guess which) uses it as marital currency


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Two things come to mind. 1) people live too long and have too much free time. 2) they've run out of all the other significant problems.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

I think a lot (nto all) of couples go throudh periods of sexual sturggles in fact some of can even be rellated to the stress and strain of financial problems..Im wondering if it seems like an overwhelming(more so than it is ) problem because a lot of people have no one else to talk to about any sexual issues or dont feel comfortable doign that in person unlike financial so a forum where you can be somewhat anonymous to come to vent and "commiserate" and get advice would naturally turn into a hot bed(not pun inteneded) of people flocking with that issue?

IOW if Im havign a financail issue I woud hav eno problem talkign to my mother ..my sister ..my father brother heck a lot of people and many of them could relate somewhat at least..not so with a sexual issue..its #1 nat as easy to talk about #2 less likely they have expereince with it..or at least not necessarrily the same way you are etc..and even IF so are far less liekly to divulge their stories to say ...'you are not alone"..

Thats just a hunch...

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Oh and I do suspect the rise in availability of porn could have caused an increase in the issues today verses say 25 30 years agot..I just knwo too many that get hurt over that and it affects their self esteem and causes disturbences as well as men who lose interest in being with thewife becasue of it etc..(not that women dotn ever view porn )..

Dallas


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

*stern glare at RLD*


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

LOL most divorces are not cause of "financial problems" that is a lie people say. 

Most divorces are because of abuse mental or physical, being neglected, infidelity, and substance abuse and "financial problems". I would say the financial problems also usually come hand and hand with many other problems and the last straw for the couple is being not financially secure. Infidelity is a leading cause. Sex becomes a huge issue because often people who are not in a consummate love marry they than realize they dont love each other and want more out of life. Often some people feel they just settled for the other person or they were maybe "high" at the time and just went along with it. Now they are left unhappy and bound to this person and its legally recognized they than have to factor in shared expenses or housing and everything is shared and their may be a child involved yearning for a different life they might find that in someone else and cheat. By and large id say sex is a huge issue because you cannot continue to have sex with someone and it be enjoyable unless (typically) you have a connection with them. In a marriage were sex is expected it might be hard to want to have sex or have sexual desires for your spouse if you are not truly in love with them. They may be physically appealing and nice but if other things in the marriage are hard and failing you might build resentment among other things. 


In short i believe its a huge issue because most people in marriages and having sex are not truly in love with one another. The couples who are experience problems with sex like all others do but it does not lead to divorce if they are truly in love, issues like low or high sex drives can be overcome through co-operation and talking. Love can triumph all those things and any negative event should that love be a true love that consumes both partners. If that love does not exist in the marriage than what you have is a marriage that is not a "true love" not a consummate love. The "true love" requires 3 things (intimacy, passion, commitment) marriages that fail do not truly have those 3 things. A good portion of marriages exist in which their is commitment and intimacy but no passion that will lead to a marriage that survives for a long period 10-15 years than eventually dies. A marriage that has only intimacy and passion has no commitment and will die quickly. A marriage that passion and commitment may not have the intimacy part which is vital to sex and being loved.


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## Kathrynthegreat (Apr 23, 2012)

MrVanilla said:


> From my perspective, it's a new phenomenon.
> 
> 'Sex' for me always meant intercourse. It never meant all these other 'sex acts' that have appeared and become common place over the last 40 years.
> 
> ...


True. It seems like in generations past, sex for women was viewed as "marital duty." They were advised to "lie on your back and think of England." I think maybe these days people expect more from marital sex than they did in years gone by.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Kathrynthegreat said:


> True. It seems like in generations past, sex for women was viewed as "marital duty." They were advised to "lie on your back and think of England." I think maybe these days people expect more from marital sex than they did in years gone by.


Well, yeah. You say that like it's a bad thing?

I don't want to model my sex life on Victorian England -- and by the way, those mores were only for the upper crust. And just look at the erotica that came out of Victorian England.

Really, Kathryn, what are you getting at? Do you want permission to not want sex? Well, then, give yourself permission. It's 2012, you can do whatever you want.


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## Kathrynthegreat (Apr 23, 2012)

lamaga said:


> Well, yeah. You say that like it's a bad thing?
> 
> I don't want to model my sex life on Victorian England -- and by the way, those mores were only for the upper crust. And just look at the erotica that came out of Victorian England.
> 
> Really, Kathryn, what are you getting at? Do you want permission to not want sex? Well, then, give yourself permission. It's 2012, you can do whatever you want.


Not really getting at anything. Just noticed it's a huge issue for a lot of people and wondering why. I don't need permission for anything.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

No, you don't, I'm glad you know that. But you were the one that brought that up. Why?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

quote:True. It seems like in generations past, sex for women was viewed as "marital duty." They were advised to "lie on your back and think of England." I think maybe these days people expect more from marital sex than they did in years gone by. 
end quote

I agree ..hot and spicy is expected norm..I doubt 60 years ago the woman was expected to wear lingerie and use "toys" .text message sexy invitations maybe even take nudie shots for hiim....have sex in broad daylight and every postion you can twist into .. oral sex with swallowing ..and to recieve oral ..keep it "shaved" anal(at least attempted that is) ...at least not the average wife..and especially not 3 to 7 times a week..

Now the lie on yoru back adn pray for England that was resticted to the Victorian Era..when the wife was DESIRED to be almost "virginal sex was to have babies adn only when she new he had to have a beast taming and woudlnt stop poundign on the door LOL!!..But she was also NOT considred as to HER sexual needs...in fact she was told she doesn or shouldnt HAVE any..swear the woman used to go to the doctor with anxiety adn they masturbated her..I beleive thats actually how the modern day vibrator came about it was originally an medical device for women..

Dallas


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

My view on marriage has always been a simple one. When you marry, you marry for life and if that is the goal, you have make it a priority to bring you spouse your best self and continuosly feed it.

The execution of that is where I have been naive because it seems there are so many needless complications and drama that gets in the way. Communication gets sideways, resenetments build and then you end up like me finding out things weren't what you thought they were and trying to fix what I suppose I should have known was broken.

Sex seems to be a physical illustration of how a marriage deteriorates. At first you do it all of the time and there is variety, quantity, passion etc... and then you wake up some years later and it has all changed. 

A man may look at this as not a threat, just a harmless routine that can be easily corrected. So we initiate more and try to introduce new things not expecting the euphoric rush you get in a new relationship, but the satisfying closeness that is the result of having a long term partner. But then comes the rejection and it forces a man to face that the lack of sex means something deeper that is a threat.

So we try to initiate more looking for the signs that everything is OK and the more we are rejected, the clearer the message.

Now what if there is no message to be sent other than our wives have just lost interest? As a man, I have no idea how to relate to that. I am always interested and because I started this marriage with the mindset it would be forever, I am only interested in her. It has become a subconscious attraction that no other women can break through.

So then some people fight about it, say mean things, pout, guilt and just about every other negative emotion and it just builds on itself I guess.

It would be so nice for the wife to acknowledge that her lower libido is a problem, and as a couple work to fix it. If it is emotional (resentment of me) or physical just talk about it and work through it. Just the effort would go so far.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by jokersvillage.com
> 
> My wife and I went to the state fair and one of the first exhibits we stopped at was the breeding bulls.
> ...


I always heard this as a Calvin Coolidge joke.

Coolidge effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Mr B said:


> Over time people get bored of having sex with the same person year in and year out. They like being married, like having kids and being in a family but they just lose interest in the sex.


This seems like an oversimplified and perhaps unfounded generalization. I haven't gotten bored in 35 years and I'm sure she hasn't either.

But maybe we're weird.


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I agree ..hot and spicy is expected norm.. I doubt 60 years ago the woman was expected to wear lingerie and use "toys" .text message sexy invitations maybe even take nudie shots for hiim....have sex in broad daylight and every postion you can twist into .. oral sex with swallowing ..and to recieve oral ..keep it "shaved" anal(at least attempted that is) ...at least not the average wife..and especially not 3 to 7 times a week..


In the world I grew up in... this wasn't expected, and that was 40 years ago, or in college 30 years ago... 

actually, I'm not entirely convinced that most of what you mentioned above is _expected_ today.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Oh and I do suspect the rise in availability of porn could have caused an increase in the issues today verses say 25 30 years agot..I just knwo too many that get hurt over that and it affects their self esteem and causes disturbences as well as men who lose interest in being with thewife becasue of it etc..(not that women dotn ever view porn )..
> 
> Dallas


ITA. The availability of porn at the click of a button is creating a new generation of men who will be utterly hooked on porn. They start younger and younger, and become fixated on certain images and events which trigger their sexuality. Anyone who has seen porn can testify that the things that are done in a pornographic movie/pictures are not the norm for marriage. There is a brutality to porn that is not the norm. The vast majority of women do not wish to have violent intercourse with 3 or 4 men - one in each orifice, and one to watch. But if that's what a young boy becomes tantalized by, and becomes warped by, then he is going to find a sexual relationship with a normal woman extremely strange. He is going to wonder why she doesn't like it rough, why she doesn't have an endless capacity for oral sex, and her jaw hurts after a while, and no he really can't ram it right down her throat, and actually anal sex is not her thing and she does NOT want to do that, and she would run a mile if he brings up a threesome .. I mean, and I haven't even got into the weird stuff in porn yet. 

When a woman gets judged by those standards, and her man lets her know that she's not satisfying him because she can't be a porn star, then damn right she's going to turn off sexually.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

I think there is a lot of tension also. A lot of people still don't know how to talk about sex. And then there is the hook up sex. In general, I blame the media, lol. There is an obsession with sex, and who is doing what to whom with what and when. At the same time, it's kind of a schoolboy attitude, with lots of sniggering. We need some grown up attitudes towards sex and not this salaciousness.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

lamaga said:


> *stern glare at RLD*


I'm the first to admit I have first-world problems. I'm just saying sex is pretty far down the list of things to no, really, seriously this nuclear sh^t is going to hit the fan type worries. 

"So, what's on the to-do list today?"

dunno, maybe try not to get cholera or killed by the uprising?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

MrVanilla said:


> In the world I grew up in... this wasn't expected, and that was 40 years ago, or in college 30 years ago...
> 
> actually, I'm not entirely convinced that most of what you mentioned above is _expected_ today.


I think its expected by FAR more today than it ever has been ...at least in married life..your more likely if you marry today for most of those things on that list to be "assumed" will occur(with the excetion of anal but anal sex is ON the rise even for teenage girls to "preserve her virginity none the less)I will however say that with that changing of sort of sexaul "expectations" that FAR less women go to thier graves having never experienced an orgasm..these times as opposed to past times in many cultures have allowed for women(the average woman) to be lets say "liberated" and more encouraged to understand her sexuality and to teach men a womans sexuality and that a woman too (a wife not just a woman kept on the side ) has the not only ability but the desire and the right to enjoy sex same as a man..:smthumbup:

Dallas


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

I agree with the above posters who have cited romance novels and romantic comedies and romance movies etc. as creating unrealistic sexual/romantic expectations in women. 

Like the above posters, I agree that these mediums warp women into thinking enthusiasm for romance and exciting and close intimacy is commonplace

Darn right men are going to be turned off when compared to smooth-talking, socially-adept, sensitive, well-hung, perfect alpha/beta-mixed, popular, rich guys like this.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

janefw said:


> ITA. The availability of porn at the click of a button is creating a new generation of men who will be utterly hooked on porn. They start younger and younger, and become fixated on certain images and events which trigger their sexuality. Anyone who has seen porn can testify that the things that are done in a pornographic movie/pictures are not the norm for marriage. There is a brutality to porn that is not the norm. The vast majority of women do not wish to have violent intercourse with 3 or 4 men - one in each orifice, and one to watch. But if that's what a young boy becomes tantalized by, and becomes warped by, then he is going to find a sexual relationship with a normal woman extremely strange. He is going to wonder why she doesn't like it rough, why she doesn't have an endless capacity for oral sex, and her jaw hurts after a while, and no he really can't ram it right down her throat, and actually anal sex is not her thing and she does NOT want to do that, and she would run a mile if he brings up a threesome .. I mean, and I haven't even got into the weird stuff in porn yet.
> 
> When a woman gets judged by those standards, and her man lets her know that she's not satisfying him because she can't be a porn star, then damn right she's going to turn off sexually.



I agree, women are starting to consume romance media at younger and younger ages. The availability of this stuff at a click of the button on streaming Netflix or at the bookstore is creating a generation of women who are utterly hooked on romance media. 

Anyone who has seen these movies and read these books can attest that the stuff that happens in them are not the norm in marriage. But if that's what women become tantalized by and warped by, she is going to find a relationship with a normal man extremely strange. She is going to wonder why he doesn't have the charm of Clooney, or the abs of Tyson Beckford, or the smile of Ryan Gosling, or the sensitivity of a Nicholas Sparks lead character, or the rugged masculinity of a bodice-ripper hero, or the package of David Beckham, or the money and mystery of Christian Grey. 



I think we're together - when a man gets judged by those standards and his woman lets him know he's not satisfying her because he can't be a rom-com star/romance novel lead, then damn right he's going to turn off sexually.


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## resetbuttonpushed (May 13, 2012)

Kathrynthegreat said:


> I have heard repeatedly that the biggest cause of divorce in North America is financial problems, but listening to this forum and other people, it seems like sex is the main issue. It certainly was for us.
> 
> Why is that? Why is it so hard for two people to keep their sex life in line over a long period of time? Also, do you think this is a relatively new phenomenon, or has it always been this way and got swept under the rug because divorce was frowned upon?


I think it is because people's sexual desires change over time, drives change, there is a need to keep up the spark which takes work from both parties, and sometimes one party loses interest altogether causing serious issues... I think it's been an issue it's just that with the last generation taking the divorce rate to all time highs, before woman (like my gma's generation) just dealt with it, gave to their husbands, were considered property, many lived by the biblical principles in North America (whether Catholic or Jewish it's in the old testiment).... so I think it was rug swept, with the feminist movement i think things changed a bit, sexual freedom and women seeking sexual freedom and rights things changed dramatically. Just my opinion from talking with older adults (I am 30). But having experienced issues with it in my own marriage, it's a challenge to keep things fresh, from both sides, I work on it, and then my husband get lazy and then it goes good a while and then I get lazy.... if we could just both keep up the work things would be great. I would hope. But then again occasionally we have issues with jealousy too because we have seen friends go thru affairs, split up, divorce, etc, and so fear creeps in. It's crazy. I know I've gone on a rant, but I think that it is a very common problem but often the source of strain that causes other problems to blow out of proportion. I know plenty of people with financial problems who stay together, add sex problems, and everything falls apart, maybe on divorce papers it's just nicer to cite financial problems then "sexual incompatibility" or "lack of desire"


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

quotearn right men are going to be turned off when compared to smooth-talking, socially-adept, sensitive, well-hung, perfect alpha/beta-mixed, popular, rich guys like this END quote

Its hell of a lot more realistic than a woman having multiple orgasms from a guy just "putting it in"..Also why dont you look at the revenue generated from porn as compared to "romance novels" its a joke..Porn has far more been "utilized" by mostly men than romance novels by women..Romance novel sales are DWARFED like its not even comparible to porn its a joke to even compare them..

Dallas


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> quotearn right men are going to be turned off when compared to smooth-talking, socially-adept, sensitive, well-hung, perfect alpha/beta-mixed, popular, rich guys like this END quote
> 
> Its hell of a lot more realistic than a woman having multiple orgasms from a guy just "putting it in"..Also why dont you look at the revenue generated from porn as compared to "romance novels" its a joke..Porn has far more been "utilized" by mostly men than romance novels by women..Romance novel sales are DWARFED like its not even comparible to porn its a joke to even compare them..
> 
> Dallas


Are we really going to compare what's more realistic out of two incredibly unrealistic alternatives? 

And I didn't just refer to romance novels. Also: romance movies.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

SoWhat said:


> Are we really going to compare what's more realistic out of two incredibly unrealistic alternatives?
> 
> And I didn't just refer to romance novels. Also: romance movies.


Yes I am going to compare them ..so are many..if you dont want to then ...well dont.but there IS NO COMPARISON.Even if you start with VOLUME(of peopel exposed) and exposure and then move on from there ..

Dallas


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

You were comparing the "realism" of porn sex and romance novel romance, not the amount of people consuming each.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

Couples stop prioritizing sex and they get too comfortable with their spouses. Sex takes a backseat to children, work and other responsibilities. 

I want to be a woman who enjoys a great sex life well into my old age. Of course, I do not know how menopause will effect me and my stallion husband may develop ED as he ages. Hope Cialis works for him.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

FirstYearDown said:


> Couples stop prioritizing sex and they get too comfortable with their spouses. Sex takes a backseat to children, work and other responsibilities.
> 
> I want to be a woman who enjoys a great sex life well into my old age. Of course, I do not know how menopause will effect me and my stallion husband may develop ED as he ages. Hope Cialis works for him.


I dont think its fair to say couples (in general) stop (as in an action ) prioritizing sex rather than sex waxes and wanes over from puberty to death..where other things in life naturally are "priority" over sex..and then sex is still there and important on some level though..Havign a "great sex life" well into your 80s doesnt have to mean "sex is your priority" anymore than in your 20's..

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Unhappy2011 said:


> I am sure it has always been that way.
> 
> Just my own gut response to reading this post is that life used to be short and mother nature really didn't care if you were happy so much as if you just reproduced to perpetuate the species.


Yeah ..Im a Christian and I wonder sometimes why we have the nerve to bring other humans in the world to suffer..thats a pet "peeve" of mine..Doesnt seem fair..to the children..

Dallas


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Religions seem to put the biggest :nono: on sex.

Christianity makes it seem almost deadly if done before marriage. I had Christian guilt as a teen! It was so horrible! All I did was kiss my bf and touch his penis and I thought I was doomed to hell. :wtf: Sex in marriage was ok, though...but how many women (and men?) went into marriage with a guilt about sex that was put on them by their parents and religion? "Good girls don't do----", especially get pregnant before marriage....but with boys, they can hide the fact that they are sexual. No one would know they got a girl pregnant unless they told people. I was unwed and pregnant at 22. I was a college grad and working towards my career. Hardly a child. But in my mom's church, oh the shame! People I had known since childhood ignored and shunned me and would give my mom their condolences. :wtf: That soured me on Christianity. 

Hindu faiths teach that sex is only for marriage too, but they take it a step farther...it's ONLY for procreation within marriage. NOT for fun.  What if the couple LIKES sex, but are highly devotional? What a mess that would be...and IS for many of my friends in the temple who struggle with sex WITH their husbands because it's ONLY for procreation. 

So in my mid 20s, I was enjoying sex. I didn't really know who i was as a person, but i knew I was sexual. Boyfriends mocked me because I was "too sexual" and they couldn't keep up. One even said I was like a man. Um....ok. So, a few more years of feeling shameful of my sexuality. 

We are raised, at least in America, that sex is somehow something only "bad girls" enjoy. Porn is CRAZY popular, but women aren't supposed to like sex and if we do, we are chastised, even by mates. 

So in marriage, once marriage happens, sex becomes an issue if the woman is shameful of her sexuality and the man wants more, OR if the woman is open about her sexuality and the man has been raised that "good girls don't do----".

I don't promote waiting til marriage for sex. I think it's important to experience with a person the act of sex for a long while before committing to marriage. Not to say people should freely give up their bodies, but while getting serious, sex should be part of the process. Those who want to wait should talk about ALLLLLL the things that could come up with sex. 

Maybe the younger generations will be better off with sex in marriage...I know I talk to my daughter about sex WAY more than my mom did with me. Hell, my mom gave me the talk in 3rd grade and after that is was just, "No sex until marriage!" If I brought up the topic, she wouldn't even listen, she'd just shut me down with, "You better not be having sex". Well, I wasn't...but I had questions for god sake.

Also, sex becomes something controlled by another human being when you're married. IF You want sex a LOT and your partner doesn't, then you are being controlled at the whim of your spouse. If you don't want sex as much as your mate, you are usually being manipulated or put down about it. The last thing you want when you're married is to fight about sex or feel bad about your sexuality. 

The key is to be equally yoked in this situation. Discuss the heck out of it, talk about the 'what ifs' and experience it WITH that person.

i don't know if that answered any question. I don't think it did. Sorry...rambling.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Any man could please a different woman in bed every night.
But it takes a REAL MAN to please the SAME WOMAN in bed EVERY NIGHT.
Just sayin'


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

In my opinion - its that we have unrealistic expectations of each other. We know how to attract a partner and get thruogh the honeymoon phase but we have little knowledge of the subsequent phases of a LTR and how to negotiate them. I had to read books to find out and we had a great MC. 

After the honeymoon phase, the real person emerges. The inevitable disappointment and resentment may perminatly taint the relationship.. Some people weather this phase with equanimity. The experience makes them reflect and mature. 

I think it is natural to notice the imperfection and role out more of yourself as you get comfortable with you chosen partner. I see maturity as enjoyimg and loving the imperfect person you married. Some people never reach a level of maturity and are perpetually dissatisfied over not getting exactly what they want. 

They expect the gauzy honeymoon phase to last throughout the relationship. They may feel cheated if they expected the romantic hero every day and the porn star every night. I hear bait and switch often. Many times it is not that at all. It's a natural changes in the nature of the relationship..

I notice one thing. Many women when young or in new relationships are very giving sexually. They give much more than they get because they don't yet know themselves. Also women are socialized to give men sex. As they begin to mature and have a better sense of themselves and gain confidence, they begin to want an equal meeting of their needs. That may start problems in the relationship. 

The man feels that she no longer loves him because she is no longer willing to give if her needs are not being met. If they don't know what ther partners needs are, they tend to give what they need not what their partner needs. The maturing is often chracterized as Bait and switch, controlling sex, gate keeping. I dont think it is that most of the time. It is just a natural process of maturing of people and relationships. 

At any rate, there are overriding elements of human relationships - an exchange of satisfactions and conditional love. The exchange requires complimentary needs. Unconditional love ends when childhood ends and mommy and daddy push their progeny out of the nest. 

I just realized that what I wrote may be overly intellectual, that's one of my many problems. . 

The question is "why is sex so difficult" . It is so vague. OP difficult how? Are you talking about sexual satisfaction, difficulty oragsming, difficulty becoming arroused, ED? Can you expand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Religions seem to put the biggest :nono: on sex.
> 
> Christianity makes it seem almost deadly if done before marriage. I had Christian guilt as a teen! It was so horrible! All I did was kiss my bf and touch his penis and I thought I was doomed to hell. :wtf: Sex in marriage was ok, though...but how many women (and men?) went into marriage with a guilt about sex that was put on them by their parents and religion? "Good girls don't do----", especially get pregnant before marriage....but with boys, they can hide the fact that they are sexual. No one would know they got a girl pregnant unless they told people. I was unwed and pregnant at 22. I was a college grad and working towards my career. Hardly a child. But in my mom's church, oh the shame! People I had known since childhood ignored and shunned me and would give my mom their condolences. :wtf: That soured me on Christianity.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing your self..:butterfly:

GREAT RAMBLING!

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Any man could please a different woman in bed every night.
> But it takes a REAL MAN to please the SAME WOMAN in bed EVERY NIGHT.
> Just sayin'


and vice versa..

Just sayin..

Dallas


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I mean, I see it in my own family. My nephew is 3 and was naked and was holding his penis. Big deal. My sister made the BIGGEST issue about how that's gross and nasty  So at 3, he's learned that his body is gross and nasty.

My girls have never been told it's gross and nasty to be naked or touch themselves. We just say it's a private thing and to do it in their bedrooms. Then wash their hands :lol: Sexuality begins almost at birth. People don't like to think about that or address it, but what we say to children about their bodies and their reproductive organs/body parts GREATLY affects how they'll view sex and body parts of the opposite sex.

We are sexual beings. Sexuality should be taught WELL before middle school (where it's the norm around here). As parents, it's our duty to provide the necessities in life--food, shelter, clothing, Love and the knowledge of their sexuality. It's not dirty or evil or gross. But it is private.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

that_girl said:


> I mean, I see it in my own family. My nephew is 3 and was naked and was holding his penis. Big deal. My sister made the BIGGEST issue about how that's gross and nasty  So at 3, he's learned that his body is gross and nasty.
> 
> My girls have never been told it's gross and nasty to be naked or touch themselves. We just say it's a private thing and to do it in their bedrooms. Then wash their hands :lol: Sexuality begins almost at birth. People don't like to think about that or address it, but what we say to children about their bodies and their reproductive organs/body parts GREATLY affects how they'll view sex and body parts of the opposite sex.
> 
> We are sexual beings. Sexuality should be taught WELL before middle school (where it's the norm around here). As parents, it's our duty to provide the necessities in life--food, shelter, clothing, Love and the knowledge of their sexuality. It's not dirty or evil or gross. But it is private.


In the USA we are also ahamed of being sexual in contrast to our over sexualized pop culture.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> In the USA we are also ahamed of being sexual in contrast to our over sexualized pop culture.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep. You can look, but you better not engage in that activity, or you're a slvt!


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Yep. You can look, but you better not engage in that activity, or you're a slvt!


I think in all my life I have never met a "slvt"...I HATE that term ..I think MEN came up with that term...

No sister of mine is a SLVT..No way..

Dallas


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> I think in all my life I have never met a "slvt"...I HATE that term ..I think MEN came up with that term...
> 
> No sister of mine is a SLVT..No way..
> 
> Dallas


I agree. However, society paints a different picture.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

lamaga said:


> *stern glare at RLD*


There is some amount of truth to what he says. It's actually a wonderful thing that we're now dealing with sexual compatibility with our spouse as our biggest problem.

I can't compare as I haven't lived in some of these places like RLD has, but I have worked in the developing world and our problems pale in comparison to theirs.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> I'm the first to admit I have first-world problems. I'm just saying sex is pretty far down the list of things to no, really, seriously this nuclear sh^t is going to hit the fan type worries.
> 
> "So, what's on the to-do list today?"
> 
> dunno, maybe try not to get cholera or killed by the uprising?


I'm seeing that right now at work. We sold some stuff into Yemen, and now it's broke. Do you have any idea on what's involved in getting a Westerner into Yemen? Friggin scary stuff.


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

What a perfect opportunity for me to share some of the things I've learned in the last year...

Pornography - Did you know?? 

That when it comes to making 'normal' pron videos 'the industry' _purposely_ seeks men "actors" whose physical appearance is as far from any woman's idealized man as possible? The reason they do this is make sure they do not alienate or otherwise 'emasculate' the male viewing audience. They want to make sure that any guy watching their 'product' can identify or feel 'better than' the men on the screen. How about that?

Romance - did you know?

That in the US last year and according to available print industry statistics... the single largest selling section of fiction was Romance Novels? (38%) and that we are not talking about just love stories here! A Romance novel can be PG or R rated or X-rated when it comes to sex descriptions and this doesn't even include so-called 'erotic' stories. 

Also: the largest section of the population purchasing both romance and erotica stories are women? Not only that... but that it's also women that out number the men when it comes to _writing_ these stories! 

Did you know? 

That _because_ some religions have put soo many restrictions on what a married couple can do when it comes to vaginal sex... that in some religious subgroups younger teen girls are being _taught_ by older teen girls how to have 'alternative' sex? (ie: oral & anal) and that this has been going on for so long that the teen boys in these subgroups have grown to _expect_ these sex acts?

I'm just dumbfounded at some of the stuff I've learned in the last year...

=)


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## hldnhope (Apr 10, 2012)

lamaga said:


> Huge issue. I think it's largely a disconnect between the genders, but hell, I don't know.
> 
> Maybe it's because it's the most intimate act a couple can do, and when the rest of things fall apart, that's going to fall apart, too? But that's post hoc ergo propter hoc


Let me add here (from current experience):
1) It is one of the first things most woman turn off when things are not going well in other areas of a marriage.

2) Some women do not have a clear understanding that sex is intimacy and needed by men to be able to 'work' on other parts of the marriage. We need to feel loved and this is the primary way we feel loved/accepted/wanted/needed by our spouse. For men, other things can be worked on easier when this exists.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

SoWhat said:


> I agree, women are starting to consume romance media at younger and younger ages. The availability of this stuff at a click of the button on streaming Netflix or at the bookstore is creating a generation of women who are utterly hooked on romance media.
> 
> Anyone who has seen these movies and read these books can attest that the stuff that happens in them are not the norm in marriage. But if that's what women become tantalized by and warped by, she is going to find a relationship with a normal man extremely strange. She is going to wonder why he doesn't have the charm of Clooney, or the abs of Tyson Beckford, or the smile of Ryan Gosling, or the sensitivity of a Nicholas Sparks lead character, or the rugged masculinity of a bodice-ripper hero, or the package of David Beckham, or the money and mystery of Christian Grey.
> 
> I think we're together - when a man gets judged by those standards and his woman lets him know he's not satisfying her because he can't be a rom-com star/romance novel lead, then damn right he's going to turn off sexually.


Sure, because the brutality encouraged by porn is the same as some girl sighing for her romantic lead. 

Do you have any original thoughts on this, or do you plan to just hijack every one of mine?


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> I think in all my life I have never met a "slvt"...I HATE that term ..I think MEN came up with that term...


I think the oldest English usage is Chaucer in the late 1400's as a term for an untidy man. (slûttish)

Germanic cognates include _Schlutt_ (German) _Slatta_ (Swedish) _Slotter_ (Dutch) and the overall meaning is simply, "Sloppy, Untidy or Lazy"

The implication of loose morals and/or sexual promiscuity of a woman was a meaning the word acquired over time, eventually becoming the primary meaning.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Didn't read the whole thread, but here's my take.

I don't think anyone leaves a marriage over common sexual problems, such as one spouse being HD and the other lD. Usually that can cause an issue, but not divorce unless the issue is severe (such as a sexless marriage).

However, when other things are stressful in the relationship, a good sexlife can make that stress disappear. Take for instance myself yesterday. I've had a long few weeks, work is getting stressing on me, some crap came up with one of the kids ticking me and my fiancee off and I'm worried a bit about money as my job is set to end in December (I'm on a term position). None of it was major stress, but I was really looking forward to coming home and getting some action just to blow off that stress and be with the one I love.

Well, my advances didn't advance nearly as far as I wanted them too and instead of feeling more connected to my fiancee and releiving some stress, I'm not extra stressed because I have the rejection to deal with on top of all the other issues. I already know that tonight is going to be a pretty big no go as well, as we are busy tonight dealing with stuff that our daughter is trying to pull off.

The point I'm trying to make is that when issues like money, the house, work, etc are causing issues, but not severe issues, they can cause stress. A healthy sexlife can do wonders to reduce that stress and keep both of you working together, not apart. It's hard to be mad at someone or stressed with someone who is banging the heck out of you every second night. It's just hard.

Sex is like a drug, and is a lot healthier for you than drinking/drug use, which some people use as a means to escape their hectic lives. It's a bond that brings two loving people together and can in a round about way nip a lot of the marital problems in the bud before they develop, not to mention almost guaranteed prevent other problems from ever appearing, such as an affair.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

It's interesting that in the Judaic tradition men are told to please their wives a certain number if times a month. The puritans actually had a similar concept about both spouses pleasing each other.

I think that we have more knowledge about different sex acts than ever before and most people feel entitled to get their fantasies met by their spouse. It's both sexes too. I think in a lot of cultures it's still acceptable for a man to go do the "dirty" things with a mistress but his wife is still pure. 
Honestly I think a lot of people are still marrying for money and physical appearance. Men want the trophy wife and women want someone to pay the bills. They get dazzled by each other and don't think about sexual compatibility until its too late. 

Also we date more than any culture ever has. We put off marriage for so long that people have a variety of partners and them expect their spouse to live up
to everyone from the past. 
Personally I don't get how women don't want to have sex. The only thing I could understand is that they are marrying for money and not for love or sexual compatibility.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> Personally I don't get how women don't want to have sex. The only thing I could understand is that they are marrying for money and not for love or sexual compatibility.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree, though I'm sure there is somethings that men don't like that women can't comprehend as well.

That said, sex is caring, loving, enjoyable and free, so I really have never been able to understand the drawback to sex for women in my life. Either I'm brutal at it or I pick the wrong women. I dunno.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I meant I don't understand women who don't like it. Not all women are like that. I love it. As time goes by the woman often becomes the one complaining about her husband's declining libido. My therapist told me men's sexuality is much more fragile as we age, she hears from women middle aged and older all the time that they don't get it enough anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

One thing I think has changed over time are the reasons to get married in the first place.

I've got three adult daughters and none of them are married. The truth is, none of them needs to be.


They're not concerned about producing children to take care of them in their old age.

Neither are they concerned about labor to run a family farm.

They're not concerned about inheritance law that favors males

They don't need somebody to support them.

They have rewarding careers of their own.

There are not strict social taboos that forbid casual male company when they want it.​
It seems like all the reasons that made marriage an economic and social necessity in previous generations are gone.

Companionship and a quality relationship seem to be what is left and a decent sex life therefore becomes more important.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

janefw said:


> Sure, because the brutality encouraged by porn is the same as some girl sighing for her romantic lead.
> 
> Do you have any original thoughts on this, or do you plan to just hijack every one of mine?



See, that's the thing - most porn does not encourage brutality. Some does. Most does not. 

I was discussing this in the context of 'unrealistic standards.' 
The unrealistic standard created by 'romantic leads' are just as unrealistic those created by beautiful women posing naked, or women enthusiastically having sex with some guy on camera. 

I'm "hijacking" because I see a ridiculous double standard being promulgated; that the sort of fantasy that appeals to women is good and the sort of fantasy that appeals to men is bad. That the former is just fantasy and the latter is 'warping' men's minds.

There is some repugnant pornography, no doubt. The majority of porn is softcore, however - just pictures of naked ladies. The vast majority of hardcore porn involves oral and vaginal sex, with some anal. 

The porn that features brutal gangbangs or rape fantasies or general abuse is not as prevalent as many would lead you to believe. 

By conflating "brutal/abusive hardcore pornography" with "softcore nudes" and "1-on-1 vaginal/oral sex" and so on, a lot of people make their anti-porn gospel misleadingly strong. 

Most men do NOT watch abusive pornography. Most men do not actually expect their women/wives to be receptive to abusive sexual acts....just as most women do not actually expect their men to be smooth-talking, sensitive-yet-strong billionaires. 

The whole "unrealistic expectations" thing is just a red herring thrown around to cover people's (very natural) jealousy.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> I think the oldest English usage is Chaucer in the late 1400's as a term for an untidy man. (slûttish)



I prefer 'slattern' as it's a more well rounded word. A better sense of the whole gestalt.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

diwali123 said:


> It's interesting that in the Judaic tradition men are told to please their wives a certain number if times a month.


This is correct. In halacha (Jewish law), if a man withholds sex it is legitimate grounds for the wife to divorce him. But to be fair, family purity laws closely circumscribe WHEN couples are permitted to have sex as well.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Sex is the greatest pleasure that many of us will ever experience. It goes to our very core emotionally. It is how we bond with our spouse, and how we feel that they love us. It is a spiritual uniting of our beings. It is the one act that makes marriage separate from all of our other relationships. It helps us to overcome petty resentments, and binds together two very different people. It is the longing of the soul for blissful union with the infinite.

Bernini's statue of St. Teresa shows her yearning for God as an open, sexual yielding.

This is too mystical for some people, but it is my view of the role that sex plays in a marriage. 

To me, it is not just f*cking.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Runs like dog: from what I've read the times coincide with when a woman is most fertile. Judaic law is so practical it makes me want to convert.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

SoWhat said:


> The majority of porn is softcore, however - just pictures of naked ladies.


This is one of the reasons I think discussions on pornography derail so badly here.

Some people are talking about depictions of the vilest, most sexually degrading acts imaginable.

Other people are talking about simple nudity, which usually qualifies as erotica, but does not actually even meet the dictionary definition of pornography.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> This is one of the reasons I think discussions on pornography derail so badly here.
> 
> Some people are talking about depictions of the vilest, most sexually degrading acts imaginable.
> 
> Other people are talking about simple nudity, which usually qualifies as erotica, but does not actually even meet the dictionary definition of pornography.



As a Wittgensteinian, I'm not into dictionary definitions  

I think many, many people here would classify Playboy as pornography; if they saw their husbands looking at a Playboy video or magazine, they'd say their husbands were jacking off to "porn." The word means whatever its usage is. (though we can save the linguistic prescriptivist/descriptivist argument for later, I guess) 

So we get a conflation of "Brutal anal gangbangs" with "Nude woman." I think the prevalence of this leap makes conversation about the topic nearly impossible on here.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> This is one of the reasons I think discussions on pornography derail so badly here.
> 
> Some people are talking about depictions of the vilest, most sexually degrading acts imaginable.
> 
> Other people are talking about simple nudity, which usually qualifies as erotica, but does not actually even meet the dictionary definition of pornography.


I personally dont think of nude photos of men or women..just nudity .."porn"..If in the picture they are engaing in some sort of sexual behvior then yeah..

but when I talk about porn as well I dont mean strictly the most vile degrading kind either..I am shocked however how popular the sicko stuff is..I used to sell computers back when the PC was first becoming a household addtion to many homes..I will never forget (adn this was in say the mid 90's) goign back in the tech room to check on an order or ask a question ..and 3 or 4 ..just average guys ..sitting at work in the middle of the day..all watching porn and it was a woman with a horse..they didnt evne try to hide it ..just 'yes what can I help you with"..Im sitting their feeling liek Im goign t pass out..I did NOT feel comfortable ..I NEVER wanted in my life to see something like that and their it was right in my face..I was humiliated..

Dallas


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Kathrynthegreat said:


> I have heard repeatedly that the biggest cause of divorce in North America is financial problems, but listening to this forum and other people, it seems like sex is the main issue. It certainly was for us.
> 
> Why is that? Why is it so hard for two people to keep their sex life in line over a long period of time? Also, do you think this is a relatively new phenomenon, or has it always been this way and got swept under the rug because divorce was frowned upon?


I can only speak from my own experiences obviously but lack of sex drive was never the issue.It always started out hot n heavy then trickled off after various spats,disappointments,hurts,etc.
My sex drive is tied to my emotional health.If I'm happy,I'm horny.

In my current relationship we have sex every single night no matter what.We'll turn the tv off,stop other activities, and go to bed as early as we need to in order to make love and take our time.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I can only speak from my own experiences obviously but lack of sex drive was never the issue.It always started out hot n heavy then trickled off after various spats,disappointments,hurts,etc.
> My sex drive is tied to my emotional health.If I'm happy,I'm horny.
> 
> In my current relationship we have sex every single night no matter what.We'll turn the tv off,stop other activities, and go to bed as early as we need to in order to make love and take our time.



AND you've got an awesome screenname. In the strangest of places...if you look at it right.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

SoWhat said:


> So we get a conflation of "Brutal anal gangbangs" with "Nude woman." I think the prevalence of this leap makes conversation about the topic nearly impossible on here.


The philosophy behind it is interesting, but I think this illustrates an impracticality in allowing subjective perception to take precedence over the anchor points we've established in language to keep us all on the same page. 

I don't think you could discuss trigonometric functions in any meaningful way with someone who couldn't agree with you on the value of Pi. You can't really discuss ancient Greek with someone who thinks ανθροπος means something besides "man" (Or Mankind) and it's difficult to discuss the harmful effects of pornography when anything whatsoever that stirs a man's desire is at least mildly pornographic. It turns into an indictment of men as a gender.

For example, men are especially susceptible to a phenomenon called 'Partialism' --Sexual fixation on non-sexual parts of the body. Most men enjoy the sight of a shapely pair of female legs, but some men think things like hair, hands, feet, the small of the back, etc. are sexy.

Is a picture of a barefoot woman pornographic or is it pornographic to only some men or is it only 1% pornographic since about 1% of the male population would find it erotic? I think flexible, subjective definition is a path that Islam went down _vis-à-vis_ pornography and now they're stuck in a cul-de-sac where everything needs to be covered up in the name of decency.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

SoWhat said:


> AND you've got an awesome screenname. In the strangest of places...if you look at it right.


;-) my favorite song


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## MYM1430 (Nov 7, 2011)

Two reasons:
#1 - Increased diversions
#2 - Increased mobility

What is left to do before sleep if the power is out (no netflix or facebook)? #1
Why are there so many babies born 9 months after a blizzard? #2

We have so many options for pleasure that it makes sex fall in priority.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> The philosophy behind it is interesting, but I think this illustrates an impracticality in allowing subjective perception to take precedence over the anchor points we've established in language to keep us all on the same page.
> 
> I don't think you could discuss trigonometric functions in any meaningful way with someone who couldn't agree with you on the value of Pi. You can't really discuss ancient Greek with someone who thinks ανθροπος means something besides "man" (Or Mankind) and it's difficult to discuss the harmful effects of pornography when anything whatsoever that stirs a man's desire is at least mildly pornographic. It turns into an indictment of men as a gender.
> 
> ...


I think you're right in your practical concerns. And I don't actually disagree with you. 
I don't think "meaning" is something floating out there over words, but I do think language is a social activity and that its a senseless one if we don't have somewhat common (or at least overlapping) references. 

Words don't have meaning, people mean things when they use words - but there's no reason to speak if we don't have some sort of common sense to the words. 

So I don't like dictionary definitions, as they are always going to fall short, but I do think people here should work on eliminating some ambiguity when there's a strong potential for confusion.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

SoWhat said:


> See, that's the thing - most porn does not encourage brutality. Some does. Most does not.
> 
> I was discussing this in the context of 'unrealistic standards.'
> The unrealistic standard created by 'romantic leads' are just as unrealistic those created by beautiful women posing naked, or women enthusiastically having sex with some guy on camera.
> ...


You do not see ME promulgating any double standards. I don't advocate for romantic fiction any more than I advocate for porn. And you personally may not think that porn is brutal - but as a woman who has been having sex for, oh, over 30 years easily - I can vouch that for a woman to have sex with multiple partners, in multiple orificies, time after time IS brutal. There is no woman out there who can take that kind of hammering to her body without it causing pain - and any man watching that who believes it doesn't cause pain, is immediately caught up in some kind of fantasy land which is far, FAR more dangerous than a woman wishing her husband brought home flowers more often.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

janefw said:


> Y And you personally may not think that porn is brutal - but as a woman who has been having sex for, oh, over 30 years easily - I can vouch that for a woman to have sex with multiple partners, in multiple orificies, time after time IS brutal. There is no woman out there who can take that kind of hammering to her body without it causing pain - and any man watching that who believes it doesn't cause pain, is immediately caught up in some kind of fantasy land which is far, FAR more dangerous than a woman wishing her husband brought home flowers more often.



Uh...that's the point I was trying to make.
Most porn is NOT like that. 
Most porn is 1-on-1 vaginal/oral. 
You're conflating.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

SoWhat said:


> Uh...that's the point I was trying to make.
> Most porn is NOT like that.
> Most porn is 1-on-1 vaginal/oral.
> You're conflating.


I don't know what porn you have seen, but what I have seen has never been like that. You can see more than that in an NC17 and even some R rated movies. Who would bother with such vanilla sex?


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

janefw said:


> I don't know what porn you have seen, but what I have seen has never been like that. You can see more than that in an NC17 and even some R rated movies. Who would bother with such vanilla sex?


Most people. 

You've never seen one-on-one vaginal sex in porn? _Really_?


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

janefw said:


> I don't know what porn you have seen, but what I have seen has never been like that. You can see more than that in an NC17 and even some R rated movies. Who would bother with such vanilla sex?


I've watched some porn in my life, usually watch a little a few times a month. This type of sex is usually all I do watch.

I find I tend to watch porn when I'm wanting sex but it isn't forthcoming. Usually the type of porn I watch is the type of sex I want too, and for me that's limited to vaginal or oral almost exclusively.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

"*There’s been a lot of concern that porn is getting more violent and more misogynistic and that the Internet is making it harder for women because porn makes men want more extreme sex. What does your research show?*

It’s not at all more violent or misogynistic. We really looked at all porn searches. Truly violent pornography is extremely rare. It truly is rare and the kind of people who watch it are a clearly identifiable group."



Read more: Q&A: The Researchers Who Analyzed All the Porn on the Internet | Healthland | TIME.com


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

It's not misogynistic to show that women are ready to have sex with a man at the drop of a pair of pants, without any foreplay or lubrication, and that she will have the most amazing orgasms from nothing but penetration?

LOL.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

Studying porn isn't exactly a lifelong study of mine. I simply chose to educate myself. What I have seen, no, is not straight penetration/sex. And, btw, to show SO much oral sex, and to show women actually getting an orgasm from oral sex is just a big eye roll for me. There is no g-spot in the throat/mouth. Women really don't have orgasms from giving oral sex. I promise. Also, what I have seen is multiple sex partners/threesomes/foursomes and it is not the real scenario of most marital sex - where a good partner will take care of other's needs, and where sex is an act of love between two partners. 

Or is there some respectful, loving porn out there that I missed?


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

janefw said:


> It's not misogynistic to show that women are ready to have sex with a man at the drop of a pair of pants, without any foreplay or lubrication, and that she will have the most amazing orgasms from nothing but penetration?
> 
> LOL.


On the flip side, why is it ok to show men as being horny at the drop of a hat, easily seduced by a woman simply bending over and having wangs that could be used as a towrope?

Porn gives stereotypes to both sides.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> On the flip side, why is it ok to show men as being horny at the drop of a hat, easily seduced by a woman simply bending over and having wangs that could be used as a towrope?
> 
> Porn gives stereotypes to both sides.


ITA. The stereotype of James Bond - ready at the zip of a zipper - is just as ridiculous as the stereotype of the happy *****.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Mr B said:


> Over time people get bored of having sex with the same person year in and year out. They like being married, like having kids and being in a family but they just lose interest in the sex. They stay married despite this because divorce causes so much collateral damage to loved ones, and is expensive and drops the standard of living for all concerned especially kids. Some fear they can't make it alone or feel they are no longer able to attract another partner should they leave the marriage.
> 
> So people end up staying together even though sex is either terrible or non existent. Its very common.


This loss of interest is generally limited to the wife losing interest specifically in her husband. They get the 4-7 year itch, which manifests more as disinterest in the H, rather than interest in others. However, if the right guy comes along and sniffs, she'll regain her interest in sex.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

That's strange. It seems it happens to men too.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

janefw said:


> Studying porn isn't exactly a lifelong study of mine. I simply chose to educate myself. What I have seen, no, is not straight penetration/sex. And, btw, to show SO much oral sex, and to show women actually getting an orgasm from oral sex is just a big eye roll for me. There is no g-spot in the throat/mouth. Women really don't have orgasms from giving oral sex. I promise. Also, what I have seen is multiple sex partners/threesomes/foursomes and it is not the real scenario of most marital sex - where a good partner will take care of other's needs, and where sex is an act of love between two partners.
> 
> Or is there some respectful, loving porn out there that I missed?


So those who HAVE studied it and publish results that dont jive with your point of view are...wrong? Studying too much? 

Do you think that the sort of porn that you remember most strongly is the stuff that you have an aversion to and thus made the most impact on your memory? 

You don't have to agree with the studies that show that most people most of the time look at porn that you deem vanilla. But I think you should make clear to people that what you mean by "porn" is simply "violent porn."


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

janefw said:


> It's not misogynistic to show that women are ready to have sex with a man at the drop of a pair of pants, without any foreplay or lubrication, and that she will have the most amazing orgasms from nothing but penetration?
> 
> LOL.


I think there's a BIG difference between misogyny and fantasy. 
Misogyny = hatred/dislike/fear of women. Showing women who pretend to be really enthusiastic about sex and really enjoy it has nothing to do with hatred of women - it involves women getting pleasure out of something! 

Is it fantasy? Sure. Women's drive, on average, is lower than men's. A lot of the men who look at porn are using it as a form of escapism, pretending a woman they're (pretend) having sex with actually likes and wants to have sex with them.

In porn, a woman's sex response looks more like a man's typical sex response.
In romance media, a man's romance/sex response often looks more like a woman's.

There's nothing sexist/misandrist about romance media conceptions of men as someone so overcome by emotion for a female lead that they can't help but do X, Y, or Z. It's fantasy.


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## Skate Daddy 9 (Sep 19, 2011)

I wonder if 30 – 40 years ago in the Leave It To Beaver era if Ward Cleaver just came home and said “June, we are going to have sex tonight” and women just did it because they were taught to be more subservient then women are today. I did not live in this time but I have always been under the impression that Pre-60’s, Pre-Liberation women had less say and maybe they just were more use to doing what they were told?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

The ancient Romans were huge into porn, and look what happened to them - Goths, Vandals, Malaria, Christianity the whole 9 yards.


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## Mr B (Feb 6, 2009)

SoWhat said:


> As a Wittgensteinian, I'm not into dictionary definitions
> 
> I think many, many people here would classify Playboy as pornography; if they saw their husbands looking at a Playboy video or magazine, they'd say their husbands were jacking off to "porn." The word means whatever its usage is. (though we can save the linguistic prescriptivist/descriptivist argument for later, I guess)
> 
> So we get a conflation of "Brutal anal gangbangs" with "Nude woman." I think the prevalence of this leap makes conversation about the topic nearly impossible on here.


Exactly. Not to mention that morality is fluid and one person's "vile and disgusting" is another's hot fantasy sex The unlimited variety of porn available simply reflects the wide range of things that turn people on. 

Porn is here to stay and like any visual medium if it bothers you don't watch it.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

janefw said:


> That's strange. It seems it happens to men too.


Read the full article. It's all medical for the boys. The woman loses interest in the husband as a matter of the passage of time together. Her libido is intact, but dormant and awaiting reawakening by the arrival of some prince Charming. The men are the victims of low T, ED, stress, hypertension, or all the above.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Runs like Dog said:


> The ancient Romans were huge into porn, and look what happened to them - Goths, Vandals, Malaria, Christianity the whole 9 yards.


This is correct. The Greco-Roman world was huge into porn (incidentally in the full view of children). Plus lots of public nudity by all strata of society, including the Christians, who the churchian fathers tell us attended the baths daily.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Sex dies off in relationships where people don't focus enough on their own relationships.
there are lots of reasons, some are that the men are either doormats or they are *******s, most women will not stay attracted to either of those types long term.
Secondly if the woman is a doormat or too masculine or Shrew like. There has to be a balance. 

Most women are attracted to family men who take charge can do the right thing without being told and who will be honest and faithful and put his wife first. Both people should know each other well and focus on each other as much as possible, they should flirt and the men should take the lead. 

Get rid of porn and any other sexual distractions, spend time together and focus on your sexual relationship and it should blossom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Skate Daddy 9 said:


> I wonder if 30 – 40 years ago in the Leave It To Beaver era if Ward Cleaver just came home and said “June, we are going to have sex tonight” and women just did it because they were taught to be more subservient then women are today.


"Kind of hard on the beaver last night, weren't you Ward?"


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## dahling (Sep 26, 2011)

*Why is sex such a problem?*
Sex is likely such a problem in marriages since the HD's partner desires and needs are usually seen as more normal and important and the LD's partners desires and needs are usually vilifed. The LD partner is generally expected to not say no without a good reason having sex regardless of their feelings, desire, and consent to meet the HD's 'emotional needs'. 

*Why is that?*
Sex is often regarded as a duty the LD partner is expected to and berated for not accomodating the HD's partner. Ironically it's frowned upon to treat it as an unwanted or unpleasant duty, chore, job despite how often it's compared to chores and jobs those who frown upon such treatment. Suggests to me that whether the partner genuinely wants and enjoys sex doesn't matter only that the partner doesn't show the opposite during. :scratchhead:

*Why is it so hard for two people to keep their sex life in line over a long period of time? *
Hormonal changes (sex drive), conditional changes (location), relationship changes (needs unmet), emotional changes (resentful), and attraction changes (fat, bald, aging).

*Also, do you think this is a relatively new phenomenon, or has it always been this way and got swept under the rug because divorce was frowned upon?*
I think it's a relatively new phenomenon thanks to martial rape generally being a crime, ease of divorce, gals generally not having to depend on guys for financial survival so few grin it & bear it, and many gals seeing sex as a mutual consensual activity done out of desire and arousal for a partner vs a duty I'm obligated to do to meet his 'emotional needs'. I doubt sex was such a problem in the past considering the low opinion of gals, martial rape not being illegal much less recognized, and sex being treated as an entitlement rather than a loving act.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Read the full article. It's all medical for the boys. The woman loses interest in the husband as a matter of the passage of time together. Her libido is intact, but dormant and awaiting reawakening by the arrival of some prince Charming. The men are the victims of low T, ED, stress, hypertension, or all the above.


What ALL women lose interest in her husband as a matter of a passage of time? It's not medical? (Menopause) or stress? Really? Whoever wrote that did not do their research. 

And not ALL men have medical issues. Some are passive/aggressive, some are controlling and abusive. 

It's not women bad/men good. It's really just - not.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

I agree its not all medical for the men..I've met too many women who are married to men with plenty of other reassons ..including i have heard some men confess to deliberately witholding later on in the marriage if her interest rises out of spite that she had rejected him too frequently in thier opinion in the past ..my neighbor her husband refused to have sex with her after she gained some weight..she eventually divorced him ..My brother is in a long term monogomous relationship of 13 years and they both come to me with thier issues so Im am in the know that my brother would lose interest after a fight and she said some hurtful things..then he would get over it adn in the next argument she would repeat these very same hurtful comments(or even differnt ones just as hurtful) and he eventually shut down completey..on top of the fact she had gotten in the habit after being put on disability for multiple health issues of not gettign dressed in real clothes every day just wearign a robe with her hair thrown up and no make up and gaiend about 15 lbs..the combination end resut he has no interest in havign sex with her he doesnt trust her because of the hurtful remarks and he finds her physcially unapealing.Another woman I know her husbadn has some psychological dysfunction when it comes to sex ..he feels liek hes "disrespecting" her somehow AND they have a son and he has this paranoia his son will know what they are doing..anyway because of that he will have sex but it has all these rules..like has to be on the weekened..has to be when their son is away..has to be her on top..he will not touch her breast or her vagina...basically he lays there and she does all the work..

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

quote:Why is sex such a problem?
Sex is likely such a problem in marriages since the HD's partner desires and needs are usually seen as more normal and important and the LD's partners desires and needs are usually vilifed. The LD partner is generally expected to not say no without a good reason having sex regardless of their feelings, desire, and consent to meet the HD's 'emotional needs'. 

Why is that?
Sex is often regarded as a duty the LD partner is expected to and berated for not accomodating the HD's partner. Ironically it's frowned upon to treat it as an unwanted or unpleasant duty, chore, job despite how often it's compared to chores and jobs those who frown upon such treatment. Suggests to me that whether the partner genuinely wants and enjoys sex doesn't matter only that the partner doesn't show the opposite during. 
end quote

I completley agree with this..someone not WANTING to have sex AS frequently as their spouse is demonized ..if they voice that as in I just dont want it that often you are somehow "selfish" just simply not having an interest as oftne ..then you are argued into it..or guilted int it..told its yoru resposibility..the feeligns of the higher drive spouse are elevated to righteous while the other one is somehow defraudign or sinning even agaisnt the higher drive spouse.its explaine it IS your duty ..marriage is LIKE a job directly compared to it in fact as in "sometimes you dont feel like going to work either but you have to go or you will be fired"..IF the lower drive spouse then goes ahead and complies..under those terms THEN you are demonized for thinking of it as a duty ..that you are obligated to perform even though you are NOT into it..and told you are terrible for thinking of it as a job or a chore ..how does that make them feel ..the poor thing..

Its seriously liek gettign ANGRY at someone becasue they say they arent hungry ...then talkign them int to eatign anyway..then sayign their feelings are hurt becauese the didnt seem like they enjoyed the meal enouhg ..or that they know they werent really hungry for that and not beign satisfied with the meal and that is selfish of them and so hurtful to DO to someone..The person whos forcign themslef to eat who has been angered or guilted or even threatened to do it thier feelings are apparrently jsut "wrong"..they need to stuff it someohow..

The very same person who will talk someone into becasue its your JOB..then turns around and balks becasue it FEELS liek a job when the person complies under THAT premise..

That IS a problem with sex..

Dallas


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## Skate Daddy 9 (Sep 19, 2011)

Dallas,
Your example of eating when not hungry is very clear and accurate so I am not disagreeing with what you have said but I think there is more to the story. In my marriage my wife expects a lot, my personal feelings are the scale is in her favorer most of the time. Most nights when I come home from work my wife unloads all of her emotions of the day on to me. They are always very heavy hearted and personally I am not usually in the mood to listen but I try to put a smile on my face and do what I can to be interested and engaged with her. She also likes to sleep a lot which puts me in a spot where I am in charge of dinner, bed time, homework, ect. The point I am trying to make is that there are a lot of physical needs and emotional needs in a marriage and both sides need to understand that they are all equally important. After 20 years of me being expected to deal with my wife’s depression day in and day out I am exhausted and from the rollercoaster she is on and exhausted by my needs being pushed to the side and being seen as less important than hers. If a LD partner is having their emotional and physical needs meet they need to put on a happy face when the HD partner ask for sex if they want a happy relationship, even if they are not “hungry”.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

My emotional need is to not for a change not have to worry about hers and her impending meltdown.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Skate Daddy 9 said:


> Dallas,
> Your example of eating when not hungry is very clear and accurate so I am not disagreeing with what you have said but I think there is more to the story. In my marriage my wife expects a lot, my personal feelings are the scale is in her favorer most of the time. Most nights when I come home from work my wife unloads all of her emotions of the day on to me. They are always very heavy hearted and personally I am not usually in the mood to listen but I try to put a smile on my face and do what I can to be interested and engaged with her. She also likes to sleep a lot which puts me in a spot where I am in charge of dinner, bed time, homework, ect. The point I am trying to make is that there are a lot of physical needs and emotional needs in a marriage and both sides need to understand that they are all equally important. After 20 years of me being expected to deal with my wife’s depression day in and day out I am exhausted and from the rollercoaster she is on and exhausted by my needs being pushed to the side and being seen as less important than hers. If a LD partner is having their emotional and physical needs meet they need to put on a happy face when the HD partner ask for sex if they want a happy relationship, even if they are not “hungry”.


But see Im differrent..I dont have "doulbe standards" If I can see my husband is preocupied or tired or what have you ..I would not EXPECT him to put on a "happy face" and pretend he was really interested in what ever my ramble is..there are PLENTY of times he wants to unload on me about some gripe too so I compare those APPLES to APPLES not he needs sex I need to unload my mind ..I will tell him Im NOT in the mood to listen to his gripe tell me later ..and I do the SAME for him..he is WELCOME to tell me hes stressed and cant talk right now..

What makes for a "happy marriage' in my opinion is mutual RESPECT for if you are being a real burden to the other to back off..Im not saying to NEVER go beyond your comfort or to NEVER compromise but to call it "love and "bondign" that you are straining your spouse on any constistant basis is because of some supposed "need' is just backwards to me..Why woudl I want my husband to be stressing out forcign himself and strainign to do anything for me and PRETENDING it wasnt and I mean on some sort of "routine basis..?

I think what your wife is "expecting of you" is wrong.

And particularly with sex its by design supposed t be pleasurable for TWO people not one..What you are describing this venting thing or unloading and chores need to be done..those by design are not neccessraily SUPPOSED to be pleasurbable at all let alone mutually pleasurbale as in two people engaging in an act together..If Im upset and want to vent at all..Im under NO illusion that my hsbadn is expereincing any kind of "pleasure' or hes really really enjoying it if anything its nuetral..or he mya be curious what the information is Im relaying..If I detect hes "overloaded" like he may 'zone"(glazed over eyes) I say ..ya know what your tired I'll tell you about that later..I dont get MAD at him and tell him he needs to do a better job FAKING he is really really interested or curious in my conversation ...then continue to unload knowign hes stressign out inside while I ramble away ..pretendign that he doesn't really mind..And like I said there are MANY times he will start to unload and i will tell him I cant take anymore today I had too many things go on ..hell write me an e-mail I read later on ...

Dallas


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## J.R.Jefferis (Jun 27, 2012)

CWM0842 said:


> Dunno, ask my wife. It doesn't make sense to me either. Could be the proliferation of rom coms and porn. Unrealistic expectations on either or both sides. (I'm being facetious, partially)


You may sound a bit facetious but there is alot of truth to your statement. Today's society and culture, which is largely shaped by the media, places ridiculous levels of importance on sex. It is everywhere. The proliferation of soap operas, romantic comedies, pornographic material, romance novels, all of which are so incredibly disconnected from reality, elevate the importance of sex to dangerous levels. They completely distort our perception of reality and our understanding about the role of sex in a marriage or relationship. So, as you say, they breed wholly unrealistic expectations when it comes to sex. Knowing this, it should come as no surprise that sex is a main cause for marital problems. Blame it on the pernicious messages constantly fed to us by the media, but let's also blame ourselves for having an insatiable appetite for such raunchy and low-class entertainment.

JR


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## J.R.Jefferis (Jun 27, 2012)

Mr B said:


> Over time people get bored of having sex with the same person year in and year out. They like being married, like having kids and being in a family but they just lose interest in the sex. They stay married despite this because divorce causes so much collateral damage to loved ones, and is expensive and drops the standard of living for all concerned especially kids. Some fear they can't make it alone or feel they are no longer able to attract another partner should they leave the marriage.
> 
> So people end up staying together even though sex is either terrible or non existent. Its very common.


Quite the contrary. I know many couples that say their sex lives have only gotten better and more fulfilling as they grow older. This is due to knowing each other more deeply, what the other person likes and does not like. It also has to do with being more and more comfortable with each other over the years. I guess ultimately it has to do with understanding that sex isn't about what I want, rather what I can do to please my partner. The key is to not be so self-centered, as with many other things in life!


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

J.R.Jefferis said:


> Quite the contrary. I know many couples that say their sex lives have only gotten better and more fulfilling as they grow older. This is due to knowing each other more deeply, what the other person likes and does not like. It also has to do with being more and more comfortable with each other over the years. I guess ultimately it has to do with understanding that sex isn't about what I want, rather what I can do to please my partner. The key is to not be so self-centered, as with many other things in life!


I agree with this...the quality of our sex life after 24 years of marriage is better than its ever been..When its MUTUALLY desired its like flowing down a river and its extremely intoxicating..becasue we know each other so well its like melting into one physcially and emotionally and we BOTH want the other to have a great time..and know exactly how to accomplish that..:smthumbup:

Dallas


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

Kathrynthegreat said:


> I have heard repeatedly that the biggest cause of divorce in North America is financial problems, but listening to this forum and other people, it seems like sex is the main issue. It certainly was for us.
> 
> Why is that? Why is it so hard for two people to keep their sex life in line over a long period of time? Also, do you think this is a relatively new phenomenon, or has it always been this way and got swept under the rug because divorce was frowned upon?


Sex is often a symptom of other problems in the relationship. That was the case for us. But even if it is the main problem, I think it can be explained by either one or both partners not seeking to understand the other. Generally men and women approach the the need for sex differently. Most problems in marriage result from a lack of understanding and communication of these differences to one another. 

Reading books on relationships and counseling helped us to better understand each other so out sex life has improved over the years instead of diminishing.

Then there is the issue of keeping sex and romance alive for the long haul. We celebrate 40 years in July. Yes it takes work to keep sex passionate. It also takes the realization that every sexual encounter will not have fireworks. Most of the time it is ordinary. So we try to make once a week or so special and we take a couple of romantic trips a year to keep the sex exciting (like having sex on the beach, in the ocean, in a hot tub at a secluded cabin, etc., etc.)


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Its seriously liek gettign ANGRY at someone becasue they say they arent hungry ...then talkign them int to eatign anyway..then sayign their feelings are hurt becauese the didnt seem like they enjoyed the meal enouhg ..or that they know they werent really hungry for that and not beign satisfied with the meal and that is selfish of them and so hurtful to DO to someone..
> Dallas


Maybe this is one of the basic disconnects in communication between men and women, but I would say that this analogy is just exactly backwards.

If my wife is hungry, it doesn't matter if I'm hungry or not. I'll cook for her. Anytime she wants. Needs are defined by the person who is *in need*; not by the person who is sated. The latter strikes me as an attempt to portray lack of need as a need in its own right.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Maybe this is one of the basic disconnects in communication between men and women, but I would say that this analogy is just exactly backwards.
> 
> If my wife is hungry, it doesn't matter if I'm hungry or not. I'll cook for her. Anytime she wants. Needs are defined by the person who is *in need*; not by the person who is sated. The latter is simply a back-handed attempt to portray lack of need as a need in its own right.


Cooking dinner is not the same as EATING when you are not hungry..Your not beign expected to eat WITH her if you are not hungry..and she is ...two completely different actions...

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

romantic_guy said:


> Sex is often a symptom of other problems in the relationship. That was the case for us. But even if it is the main problem, I think it can be explained by either one or both partners not seeking to understand the other. Generally men and women approach the the need for sex differently. Most problems in marriage result from a lack of understanding and communication of these differences to one another.
> 
> Reading books on relationships and counseling helped us to better understand each other so out sex life has improved over the years instead of diminishing.
> 
> Then there is the issue of keeping sex and romance alive for the long haul. We celebrate 40 years in July. Yes it takes work to keep sex passionate. It also takes the realization that every sexual encounter will not have fireworks. Most of the time it is ordinary. So we try to make once a week or so special and we take a couple of romantic trips a year to keep the sex exciting (like having sex on the beach, in the ocean, in a hot tub at a secluded cabin, etc., etc.)


Congrats on 40 years thats awesome...

Dallas


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Cooking dinner is not the same as EATING when you are not hungry..Your not beign expected to eat WITH her if you are not hungry..and she is ...two completely different actions...


Granted. What I'm not understanding is why you see eating when you're not hungry as a closer parallel to sex than cooking when you're not hungry.

To me that's entirely backwards and not how I view sex when my wife is in the mood and I'm not.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> What makes for a "happy marriage' in my opinion is mutual RESPECT for if you are being a real burden to the other to back off..Im not saying to NEVER go beyond your comfort or to NEVER compromise but to call it "love and "bondign" that you are straining your spouse on any constistant basis is because of some supposed "need' is just backwards to me..Why woudl I want my husband to be stressing out forcign himself and strainign to do anything for me and PRETENDING it wasnt and I mean on some sort of "routine basis..?


:iagree:


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Granted. What I'm not understanding is why you see eating when you're not hungry as a closer parallel to sex than cooking when you're not hungry.
> 
> To me that's entirely backwards and not how I view sex when my wife is in the mood and I'm not.


Because we eat when we hunger..and to satiate hunger adn feel satisfied..Sex is similar..so askign someone who has no "hunger" at the moment to act as if they do is force feeding them..because yu have to "respond" you have to "engage" as if you are hungry when you are not..When you cook and have NO desire to eat you arent EATING anythign you are cooking.You dont have t go mmmm..that smells delicious!And gobble up the food when you are stuffed already..

When you cook dinner when you arent hungry you arent engaging in the eating of the food..you are preparign food for someone else to eat..and you can say ..no you go on ahead and enjoy Im NOT HUNGRY..NO ONE is offended by that..but if you say ..NOPE I do nto desire sex at the moment but here go AHEAD you enjoy my body have at it ..its my duty adn obligation to offer my body to you ..it seems thats "deplorable" and you should PRETEND like you are hungry ..not just 'cooking" .

Im a pescatarian..I do not eat any meat but fish and eggs..I will however cook a steak for my husband but I dont have to EAT IT...I also dont have to pretned its appetising while I cook it..and I dont have to eat the bloody meat and go YUM...I dont have to say wow that smells good..In fact I can say GROSS..I mena I GET why YOU like it I used to eat it ALL..chicken livers ..lamb..baby back ribs...CHICKEN .VEAL.turkey ..PRIME rib too..now its disgusting and putrid..havent touched it in a long tiem adn makes me want to vmit at the smell of it..He never ask me to "pretend " I like it let alone eat any of it..

Dallas


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Because we eat when we hunger..and to satiate hunger adn feel satisfied..Sex is similar..so askign someone who has no "hunger" at the moment to act as if they do is force feeding them..because yu have to "respond" you have to "engage" as if you are hungry when you are not..When you cook and have NO desire to eat you arent EATING anythign you are cooking.You dont have t go mmmm..that smells delicious!And gobble up the food when you are stuffed already....


I suppose it depends on whether you see yourself as the provider or the recipient. 

With the latter, the analogy seems to me to get back into the distinction of 'Can't' vs. 'Won't.' 

Obviously the storage capacity of the stomach is finite. When you're full, you're full and you can't physically hold anymore. 

When you're not in the mood, is there nothing your husband can do? Is it really as cut and dried as being full?


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> .In fact I can say GROSS..I mena I GET why YOU like it I used to eat it ALL..chicken livers ..lamb..baby back ribs...CHICKEN .VEAL.turkey ..PRIME rib too..now its disgusting and putrid..havent touched it in a long tiem adn makes me want to vmit at the smell of it..He never ask me to "pretend " I like it let alone eat any of it..
> 
> Dallas


Yeah, but the fact that you feel comfortable with this analogy, which by extension is calling sex gross, disgusting and putrid? Tells me all I need to know.


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## dahling (Sep 26, 2011)

lamaga said:


> Yeah, but the fact that you feel comfortable with this analogy, which by extension is calling sex gross, disgusting and putrid? Tells me all I need to know.


Seems more by extension it's calling it gross, disgusting, and putrid to be forced to have sex when it's unwanted and put on a false show of enjoyment on a routine basis. How did you get it's by extention calling sex gross, disgusting, and putrid? :scratchhead:


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

dahling said:


> Seems more by extension it's calling it gross, disgusting, and putrid to be forced to have sex when it's unwanted and put on a false show of enjoyment on a routine basis. How did you get it's by extention calling sex gross, disgusting, and putrid? :scratchhead:


Does this apply to other actions between spouses? If your husband finds talking to you gross, disgusting and putrid, even though you need those discussions to connect, is he allowed to withhold?


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Does this apply to other actions between spouses? If your husband finds talking to you gross, disgusting and putrid, even though you need those discussions to connect, is he allowed to withhold?


I think that line of questioning - on-point though it is - is pretty pointless because I really don't think this poster is interested in having (or helping people to have) successful relationships.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

SoWhat said:


> I think that line of questioning - on-point though it is - is pretty pointless because I really don't think this poster is interested in having (or helping people to have) successful relationships.


Fair point. To quote an old movie, "sometimes the only winning move is not to play."


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Fair point. To quote an old movie, "sometimes the only winning move is not to play."


Wargames. Fun movie.


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## dahling (Sep 26, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Does this apply to other actions between spouses? If your husband finds talking to you gross, disgusting and putrid, even though you need those discussions to connect, is he allowed to withhold?


It applies to being forced to do acts when it's unwaned and put on a false show of enjoyment on a routine basis.

I like how to support your twist you skipped the part of it not being about the act rather being about forced to do it and put on a show of false enjoyment on a routine basis.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I think the hunger analogy isn't a bad one, actually. Hunger for food, hunger for sex, sure.

The one that is always hungry, no matter how much they ate recently, isn't going to understand someone who doesn't have a big appetite.

The one that is hungry less often (or is full more quickly on less food), isn't going to understand the person who is always hungry.

And I do agree that for a lower sexual need person that it can feel like being force-fed when you're full if you're expected to have sex even when you don't feel the desire for it. That forced feeling is the part that creates all kinds of lasting resentment. 

But, sometimes you can eat even if you aren't hungry - when presented with a delicious dessert or wonderfully smelling dish or a bag of potato chips, for that matter. Some people can eat a bit more just for the taste of it. 

Perhaps that's the key...if it tastes really good, then maybe you might want to eat more and more often than you would otherwise.


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## dahling (Sep 26, 2011)

norajane said:


> Perhaps that's the key...if it tastes really good, then maybe you might want to eat more and more often than you would otherwise.


Perhaps the key is having a compatible partner rather than forcing an incompatible partner to accomodate having the accomodation solely be on the person who isn't hungry especially when the other person can eat by themself.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> I dont think its fair to say couples (in general) stop (as in an action ) prioritizing sex rather than sex waxes and wanes over from puberty to death..where other things in life naturally are "priority" over sex..and then sex is still there and important on some level though..Havign a "great sex life" well into your 80s doesnt have to mean "sex is your priority" anymore than in your 20's..
> 
> Dallas


Why is it unfair to say that couples stop making sex a priority? It is a very true statement-husband and wives often put work, children and finances way before sex and then wonder why the connection is gone. Read the sex section of this forum and you will see what I mean.

A marriage will slowly become monotonous and dead when couples ignore sex. If couples keep putting other things above their sex life, the marriage will suffer. I'm not saying that sex should always be the very first priority, but it should NEVER be the last. I want a satisfying sex life for many decades and that will not happen if I don't view lovemaking as very important and necessary. 

Sex comes before many things in our marriage because we have agreed on the importance of lovemaking. We still enjoy each other in bed if we are arguing, when money is tight and especially when life becomes very hard. As a childfree couple, we enjoy freedom and privacy that a couple with children has to make special arrangements for. Sex is what makes us a married couple and not a pair of platonic friends or roommates. It promotes a special kind of bond which no marriage can survive without. :smthumbup:


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

norajane said:


> And I do agree that for a lower sexual need person that it can feel like being force-fed when you're full if you're expected to have sex even when you don't feel the desire for it. That forced feeling is the part that creates all kinds of lasting resentment.


Only last week I was thinking that the different 'kinds' of sex might somehow be equated to a smorgasbord or buffet... and I've been filling my plate with what I recognize, and enjoy. 

Then someone asks why I haven't tried this, or that, or such-n-such... and the only answer I have is that I'm fine with what I have, and I don't really see anything wrong with that... I often wonder if more is better, or if more is just more - for more's sake? =)


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

norajane said:


> I think the hunger analogy isn't a bad one, actually. Hunger for food, hunger for sex, sure.
> 
> The one that is always hungry, no matter how much they ate recently, isn't going to understand someone who doesn't have a big appetite.
> 
> ...


THANK you ..that my analogy isnt a bad one..And I have no issue with an occassional desert ofter you are full..or a late night snack after a big meal..(occassionally) Im talkign about you can not speed up soemones metabolism to "enjoy" 3,000 claories a day when they only need 1500...and then expecting them to pretend they are starvign as they routinely eat on a full belly...the force feeding beign a resetnment you betcha..

Also I like how you term it that ...you end up evne though you are full being somehow enticed and fullfilled by a full extra calories..Not that you routinely FAKE that its all that yummy when its not..

One correction thogh I do understand the one that has a bigger appetite..all I have to do is say ..how I feel now is how they feel more often (by far) frequently with me..and I will abstian just to see how that feels..turst me I've done both..and faking that you want sex when you dont frequently is FAR WORSE than havgn to abstain when you are hungry..Includign the fact I will lose my appetite all together..Never feelign any hunger myslef again..

Dallas


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

MrVanilla said:


> Only last week I was thinking that the different 'kinds' of sex might somehow be equated to a smorgasbord or buffet... and I've been filling my plate with what I recognize, and enjoy.
> 
> Then someone asks why I haven't tried this, or that, or such-n-such... and the only answer I have is that I'm fine with what I have, and I don't really see anything wrong with that... I often wonder if more is better, or if more is just more - for more's sake? =)


More is definately not better for me..More takes away from a good thing..

I guess I put too high of a meaning on how spectacular sex is..I would not have the same enjoyment factor if I lived in an amusemment park..than if I got to visit it less frequently..

Dallas


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I don't why it's so broken. I guess it's because people are broken.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

norajane said:


> I think the hunger analogy isn't a bad one, actually. Hunger for food, hunger for sex, sure.
> 
> The one that is always hungry, no matter how much they ate recently, isn't going to understand someone who doesn't have a big appetite.
> 
> ...


I always used that analogy a well because it is a human desire that is similar to me. I know that people are different. Some people can skip breakfast and be fine while others require 3 meals a day to feel satisfied. Some people snack between meals while others don't. At some point, however, it seems natural that people are going to be hungry, and if they lose their appetite, that can eventually affect their health in a negative way just as no sexual appetite can affect a marriage in a negative way. If someone has medical issues and loses their appetite for food, it is recognized as a problem and will be addressed by the doctor.

There are times I eat when I'm not particularly hungry, but I usually manage to eat a normal meal with satisfaction. There are certain foods i don't like, but if I get hungry enough, they taste good. Using this analogy, i can't understand how someone can go on, and on, and on, without a sexual desire of some type. 

I have learned a lot from this forum about sexual desire. I guess it's difficult to truly understand desires that are different from one's own. Honestly, I wouldn't even consider myself a HD guy. I didn't go crazy if i didn't get it every day. But I never understood how a healthy person who was married to someone they loved didn't have a desire at least once a week. My x wife seemed puzzled as to why I seemed to want sex so often. I always thought, "why would i not?" I was married to an attractive woman that i loved that I shared the same bed with. What is a turn off about that? Why would i not want sex? Why would i go to bed each night and rather lie there like we were 90 years old and in the nursing home? 

If someone loses their appetite for food and is satisfied with that, they will eventually die just as a marriage will die is one partner is satisfied with having no sexual desire.


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## J.R.Jefferis (Jun 27, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I agree with this...the quality of our sex life after 24 years of marriage is better than its ever been..When its MUTUALLY desired its like flowing down a river and its extremely intoxicating..becasue we know each other so well its like melting into one physcially and emotionally and we BOTH want the other to have a great time..and know exactly how to accomplish that..:smthumbup:
> 
> Dallas


Well put


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## J.R.Jefferis (Jun 27, 2012)

southbound said:


> I always used that analogy a well because it is a human desire that is similar to me. I know that people are different. Some people can skip breakfast and be fine while others require 3 meals a day to feel satisfied. Some people snack between meals while others don't. At some point, however, it seems natural that people are going to be hungry, and if they lose their appetite, that can eventually affect their health in a negative way just as no sexual appetite can affect a marriage in a negative way. If someone has medical issues and loses their appetite for food, it is recognized as a problem and will be addressed by the doctor.
> 
> There are times I eat when I'm not particularly hungry, but I usually manage to eat a normal meal with satisfaction. There are certain foods i don't like, but if I get hungry enough, they taste good. Using this analogy, i can't understand how someone can go on, and on, and on, without a sexual desire of some type.
> 
> ...


While I can see your point of view, and respect it, I think it is misleading to compare the desire to eat to sexual desire. Eating vital to our very existence and, as you said, will ultimately lead to death if not satisfied. However, the life and survival is not solely dependent on the satisfaction of sexual desire. While sex is an important component in a marriage, and a physical expression of the couple's love for each other, survival does not depend on it. Many marriages, particularly as the couples gets older, survive due to a host of other factors other than sexual satisfaction.

JR


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

J.R.Jefferis said:


> While I can see your point of view, and respect it, I think it is misleading to compare the desire to eat to sexual desire. Eating vital to our very existence and, as you said, will ultimately lead to death if not satisfied. However, the life and survival is not solely dependent on the satisfaction of sexual desire. While sex is an important component in a marriage, and a physical expression of the couple's love for each other, survival does not depend on it. Many marriages, particularly as the couples gets older, survive due to a host of other factors other than sexual satisfaction.
> 
> JR


While I understand this, I will again ask why this thinking only applies ot sex and does not apply equally to other needs in a marriage. If, for example, a husband decided that he only wanted sharing conversations with his wife one every 10-14 days because he just did not need or want those types of disccusions, how long would that marriage last? Would anyone even blink if the wife got the heck out of the marriage? I know I would support her. So why is sex different?


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

J.R.Jefferis said:


> While I can see your point of view, and respect it, I think it is misleading to compare the desire to eat to sexual desire. Eating vital to our very existence and, as you said, will ultimately lead to death if not satisfied. However, the life and survival is not solely dependent on the satisfaction of sexual desire. While sex is an important component in a marriage, and a physical expression of the couple's love for each other, survival does not depend on it. Many marriages, particularly as the couples gets older, survive due to a host of other factors other than sexual satisfaction.
> 
> JR


Sure, there is no exact comparison. I admit that the importance of sex in a marriage is difficult to describe. On one hand, sex is not all there is to a good marriage. If someone said they were getting married just for sex, I think most would think that was a bad idea. On the other hand, if someone said they were getting married and didn't care much for sex but just wanted a companion for life, I don't think that would sound logical either.

Dr. Phil once said that if a couple is satisfied with their sex life, it's only about 10% of what is right with their marriage, but if someone is not satisfied, it can be about 90% of what is wrong with the marriage. I thought that was about the best explanation I had heard. 

I also agree that sex may not play as huge of a role as the couples get older. The part that seems strange to me is when someone is young, healthy, and in love with their partner, yet couldn't care less abut sex. Under those conditions, I think some interest in sex would seem normal.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> So why is sex different?


Because she says it is. It's no deeper than that.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

J.R.Jefferis said:


> While I can see your point of view, and respect it, I think it is misleading to compare the desire to eat to sexual desire. Eating vital to our very existence and, as you said, will ultimately lead to death if not satisfied. However, the life and survival is not solely dependent on the satisfaction of sexual desire. While sex is an important component in a marriage, and a physical expression of the couple's love for each other, survival does not depend on it. Many marriages, particularly as the couples gets older, survive due to a host of other factors other than sexual satisfaction.


Pushing an analogy beyond its intended scope and then criticizing the result is usually _argumentum ad absurdum_

The food analogy usually comes up in response to the assertion that people for whom sex is an important emotional need are selfish, lack self-control, are not worthy or respect, etc. (All things that have been said on TAM)

You can go a week without food and it won't kill you. Humans are capable of going substantially longer than that.

Food will escalate to your number one priority though and it will be all you can think about. Anyone who thinks less of you for that is arguably judgmental and cruel. At the very least, they certainly have never known hunger at that intensity themselves.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> One correction thogh I do understand the one that has a bigger appetite..all I have to do is say ..how I feel now is how they feel more often (by far) frequently with me..and I will abstian just to see how that feels..turst me I've done both..and faking that you want sex when you dont frequently is FAR WORSE than havgn to abstain when you are hungry..Includign the fact I will lose my appetite all together..Never feelign any hunger myslef again..
> 
> Dallas


Breaking my own rule, I don't think that is a fair test. Going without something that is a low priority to you is not a fair test to understand how someone else who views it as a high priority deals with going without. Rather, go without one of your highests emotional needs/wants for an extended period (such as a week or two) and then consider how that feels.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

ocotillo said:


> Pushing an analogy beyond its intended scope and then criticizing the result is usually _argumentum ad absurdum_
> 
> The food analogy usually comes up in response to the assertion that people for whom sex is an important emotional need are selfish, lack self-control, are not worthy or respect, etc. (All things that have been said on TAM)
> 
> ...


I've thought of that as well. My x wife said that "all i thought about was sex." Well, that's not true, but I can see where she might think that. When a person feels like they are starving, it becomes a priority. I can remember the few times in our marriage when sex was frequent enough to be satisfying; I did it, enjoyed it, and went on with life. 

Once that slacked off; however, I started to feel starved. Using the food analogy, if i had to go without food for a day, and then got up the next morning and had to skip breakfast, I'm sure food is going to be the #1 thing on my mind until I get to a McDonalds. If I were with somebody, my actions might make them think, "Is food all you think about?"


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

southbound said:


> I've thought of that as well. My x wife said that "all i thought about was sex." Well, that's not true, but I can see where she might think that. When a person feels like they are starving, it becomes a priority. I can remember the few times in our marriage when sex was frequent enough to be satisfying; I did it, enjoyed it, and went on with life.
> 
> Once that slacked off; however, I started to feel starved. Using the food analogy, if i had to go without food for a day, and then got up the next morning and had to skip breakfast, I'm sure food is going to be the #1 thing on my mind until I get to a McDonalds. If I were with somebody, my actions might make them think, "Is food all you think about?"


Yes. Exactly. In their books, Alexander Dolgun and Alexander Solzhenitsyn both described an interrogation technique that is still used today because it leaves no physical marks: 

The subject is put into solitary confinement and deprived of all human contact for months and months. Then they are taken out and put into a cell with another person. I can't remember the exact Russian term for what happens, but it roughly translates to 'Verbal diarrhea.'

The need to communicate with another human being has built up to the point where all inhibitions are gone and they tell their 'cellmate' everything. The 'cellmate' of course, is an informer who promptly relays the information. 

There's a tendency for people to redefine the word, "Need" to only those things that you would quickly die without, which is complete nonsense. No dictionary supports that narrow a definition. Humans have other needs besides the physical and objective. Interrogation techniques like this would not work otherwise.


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