# I mine as well talk to the wall



## keepontruckin (Mar 13, 2015)

Hello. First post here. Just looking for advice or maybe just a sympathetic ear. A little about me - My wife and I have been together for 12 years, married for over 5. We are in our mid 30's and have 1 young child under 2. 

A couple of things to say before I share this problem I am having. I am not perfect. Men are not perfect. I do believe that fundamentally men and women are different and think differently and that many arguments arise out of simple misunderstandings of those differences. Basically, we mean well but sometimes misunderstand our spouses. I get that. I still scratch my head sometimes wondering if my wife is different, but I'll get to that.

Here's our issue, which has existed for as long as we've been together so this has come up hundreds of times. My wife doesn't really share her bad feelings. I can tell that something is wrong. She is visibly bothered. She gets quiet, cold, stiff, basically emotionless. I KNOW something is wrong. I ask her what the issue is and the answer is ALWAYS "nothing." This goes back and forth. After much prying, it turns out something is wrong but she does NOT want to share it. She feels its better to just deal with it herself. For me, this hurts. OK, so this has happened MANY times. Sometimes the prying DOES bring out whatever the issue is and it's something simple. ME, being the man that I am, tries to offer solutions, which as it turns out is wrong, because maybe she just wants to share her feelings, not get lectured on how to fix it (this is the men vs women thing). She has said that she doesn't like sharing with me because I make her feel like what she's feeling is wrong. A line she uses is, "You're basically telling me not to feel that way." I feel that defense is one she uses WAY too much. I look at it like she shouldn't be upset because things are not as bad as they seem. I feel our life is truly blessed and we have much to be thankful for. I am serious, the stresses outside the relationship are normal like job, house and kid stuff - no REAL hardships. IMO, this is a blessing. 

Here's the other major issue that ties into this. I feel my wife is extremely sensitive. Many times I feel like I am walking on egg shells around her for fear of saying the wrong thing that is going to upset her. So, she gets upset easily because she's sensitive and she doesn't share her feelings because she's sensitive and she can't be talked into a good mood because she's sensitive. She does let the littlest things stress her out and feels many things in her life and our relationship are "not fair" to her. 

These fights can often lead to what we are going through now, which is DAYS of her being "emotionless" with me. We are not really talking aside from the bare minimum. There is definitely no affection. Let me say that again, COLD for DAYS. Over something she has not shared with me. She does unusual things acting like a martyr. Like, she insists on cooking and cleaning the kitchen all by herself, a duty we normally share. This goes on for days. I feel this is such a waste. Life is too short to spend being miserable and making your spouse miserable too. I have said to her, "It doesn't need to be this way," and "are you ready to talk?" Her response is so dead. She will literally NOT answer anything at all. I mine as well talk to the wall. 

I feel she bottles up feelings and thinks she can just deal with them on her own. I try and tell her that is not healthy and that we should share our feelings with each other - that is what married couples do. 

She can also be very cold, a sentiment that has been noticed by my parents (I know that's another issue) and by her parents. Her mother once told me that God sent me to her because I have so many patients. And that is true. I am patient and feel that I am a good husband and father. A good man. I feel my wife does not appreciate that. She makes me feel like I am a bad guy. I don't deserve this "stone walled" treatment. 

As much as it hurts to think it, I sometimes feel like I married the wrong person. I do truly believe in marriage and feel it is for the rest of your life. 

Anyways, this is something that has happened many times. We eventually get through it, but it is so frustrating and really stupid when it does happen and it seems like it's INSANE. It is a problem that has always existed and probably always will. That's what hurts too. That this is life, it's as good as it gets :/

Thanks for reading.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

She was like this before you married her too, right?

Have you suggested that the two of you go to marriage counseling?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

keepontruckin said:


> She does let the littlest things stress her out and feels many things in her life and our relationship are "not fair" to her.


What are these things that she feels in life and your relationship are not fair to her?


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

It was heading towards it anyway,, then the confirmation arrives,,, "walking on eggshells".

This indicates a personality flaw - perhaps even a disorded - whereby misery, bad/cold moods etc - are used as a manipulation tactic to subjugate the partner. To keep that partner in a constant state of anxiety. The stress of guessing whats wrong,, the 'guilt' of incorrect guessing and further pouty punishment for empathetic advice given.

It's emotional bullying or abuse and it serves the same purpose as any other type - to keep one partner 'walking on eggshells', pandering to the needs, emotional or physical, of the other.

Everyone has a 'right' to their feelings and bad days,, even to get a bit snappy,, that's 'normal'. What's not normal is when those feelings become a near-daily, ongoing event,, no attempt to seek short or long-term resolution,,, spreading the misery to those around them and failing to recognise THEIR feelings.

Your wife may be abusive,,, she may be sick - one begetting the other - but it's certainly beyond the bounds of acceptable 'feelings management'.

Apols for the rush job. Gotta go out but I'll check back. Meanwhile, some reading,,

21 Warning Signs of an Emotionally Abusive Relationship | World of Psychology
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Your wife sounds disordered (cluster B personality). Read what Cluster B means.



> I ask her what the issue is and the answer is ALWAYS "nothing." This goes back and forth.


That's your biggest mistake. Never ask such personalities what the issue is. They ALWAYS have an issue. ALWAYS. They can make an issue out of no issue. They're full of resentment, self-loath and internal conflicts.

You can't really fix people like your wife. You can only draw your own boundaries and try to maintain some level of sanity. I say "try", because it's often a futile effort. 

You sound 'too nice' about the treatment your wife gives you. Days of cold treatment by her should be met with severe, swift and consistent consequences. You must make her realize your absolute lack of tolerance for such behavior by calmly drawing boundaries that carry clear consequences if crossed.

Living with people like her is like a slow death that seems inevitable every single day. Torture is what I called it in my previous marriage.

Guess what? You don't have to live like this.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"She has said that she doesn't like sharing with me because I make her feel like what she's feeling is wrong. A line she uses is, "You're basically telling me not to feel that way." I feel that defense is one she uses WAY too much. *I look at it like she shouldn't be upset* because things are not as bad as they seem."

Do you realize that you have confirmed what your wife said?

Her feelings are her feelings and you've no right to denigrate them. She may also be feeling that she married the wrong person. 

Suggestion: When your wife is in one of her moods, don't badger her to share with you. Simply tell her you know that she is upset and you love her and will be there for her should she decide to share. If she does, do not do anything other than ask if there is anything you can do. She needs to feel safe to open up with you.


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## Vorlon (Sep 13, 2012)

OP....Your situation is not really all that unique. I have been married 29 years and have the same arguments and have felt just like you do. Believe me your wife doesn't want to feel the way she does. Niether does mine. But the fact is they do. You can not take responsibility for her feelings. They are hers to own. 

Your right men and women are different. It is the Mars/Venus thing. You can fight it all you want but its a losing battle. Blondilocks advice and comments are dead on. 

You sound like a caring but frustrated husband. You also sound like you could benefit from reading a book called No More Mister Nice Guy. Marriage is tough. Its work everyday. Its also a choice each day. You can chose to control that which you have control over: YOU! You can not control your wife or her feelings. 

Yes you hate to see your wife unhappy and her unhappiness spills over on to you. It hits you where you live because you believe that she should be happy. She thinks she should too. But when she isn't you take it personally and she can feel that too which adds to her unhappiness. After a time you begin to resent her unhappiness and thus resent her too. Its all understandable. 

Take some time and work on making your self happy. Lead and she may follow. If not what have you got to lose.


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## keepontruckin (Mar 13, 2015)

Thank you for the replies. They are insightful. To answer/address a few things:

- We were in counseling for about a year a few years ago before we had a child and dealt with some issues. Counseling is a great thing and did improve our marriage. We may need to consider going back. 

- She feels many things are unfair to her - how I treat her vs my friends/family, how her boss treats her vs other coworkers, how her mother treats her vs siblings, how she does more housework/cooking/chores than I do. In my head I am thinking, "there is just no pleasing you." As someone said, there is ALWAYS an issue. 

- Blondilocks you are right. I should not tell her how to feel. That is something I need to work on. But, I feel she does over use the defense that I am telling her how to feel. Like I said, she is extremely sensitive about the little things that upset her. But again, you are right and I shouldn't try and make her feel like her feelings are wrong. And you are also right in that I shouldn't badger. That is my personality flaw where I feel like things need to be addressed and fixed right away. Works for my job, not for my marriage. But again, in my defense, this goes on for days at a time. I feel like, ok, enough already - let's deal with this. 

- Synthetic, what "severe consequences" that are calm do you suggest? I simply can't think of any.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

It sounds as though your wife is feeling like second fiddle to everyone in her life. Her self-esteem is low. She needs something to give her an ego boost so this other crap can roll off her back.

So what if it takes her several days to get her groove back. There will come a day when she won't shut up and you'll be longing for the good old days of quiet. Enjoy it while you can.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> - Synthetic, what "severe consequences" that are calm do you suggest? I simply can't think of any.


Divorce.

Make sure she knows *why* so she has a chance to improve herself.

Give her a deadline by which time you expect her to have a healthier personality (via counseling, reading and therapy). Tell her you will be filing for divorce if the improvements don't measure up to your standards.

You really DO have a choice in staying married to her. Always remember that. She can choose to remain the person she is, but you shouldn't choose to live a miserable life because of her choices.

You're not a martyr. Don't be a victim.


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## Vorlon (Sep 13, 2012)

keepontruckin said:


> Thank you for the replies. They are insightful. To answer/address a few things:
> 
> - She feels many things are unfair to her - how I treat her vs my friends/family, how her boss treats her vs other coworkers, how her mother treats her vs siblings, how she does more housework/cooking/chores than I do. In my head I am thinking, "there is just no pleasing you." As someone said, there is ALWAYS an issue.
> 
> .


Ditto my friend. I've heard all these statements. I have learned to just love her and accept her as she is. My wife does a lot and has sacrificed herself for years. She has a low self esteem stemming from childhood and cultural upbringing that is deeply engrained. Doesn't really know how to just have fun. Its all put your head down and just get it done. So in part that is a good philosophy and I agree with ti but she takes it to extremes and will not seek counseling or see a Dr about it even though she has all the signs of depression. In her eyes that is simply a weakness and failing at life. 

Not to toot my own horn but my wife has never had to work outside the home, she drives a high end SUV, Pilates multiple times a week, hair and facials monthly, furs and Jewry so much that she can't wear them all, beautiful big 5 bdrm house, 4 children, date nights, vacations, etc. Still she is unhappy many days of the week and feels like crying others. I show her affection daily, foot rubs, hand holding, cuddling, kissing and we talk on the phone 2x a day. This is not to Bragg. Well maybe it is a little  but my point is sometimes people can SEEM to have everything and it still isn't enough to make them happy. They have to find a way to make themselves happy. 

She used to call me selfish for years as she saw that I could and would enjoy myself and pursue things I enjoyed and it made me happy. She is her own worst enemy in that she expects everyone else to do, think and feel as she does and get seriously disappointed when things and people don't live up to that ideal. We later determined she equated the word selfish with looking after your own needs. We had more than one argument about that over many years. 

I'm no saint so I'm sure there are things that drive her insane about me too but that's married life sometimes. I love her dearly and life goes on. I work on being the best Me I can be. I also did a lot of self-improvement to help me cope as well.

Best of Luck


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

keepontruckin said:


> - She feels many things are unfair to her - how I treat her vs my friends/family, how her boss treats her vs other coworkers, how her mother treats her vs siblings, how she does more housework/cooking/chores than I do. In my head I am thinking, "there is just no pleasing you." As someone said, there is ALWAYS an issue.


Is there anyone in her life who she feels is treating her right? Has she always been this way, or it is a newer development? If so when did she start to change?

What is it about how you treat your friends/family that she thinks is better than you treat her.

Why does she do more housework/cooking/chores than you? (not attacking or accusing, just asking)

You need to decide what this is.. either she is mentally ill, extremely insecure or she has valid concerns that should be addressed.

If she is mentally ill and extremely insecure, why did you marry her? You know she was like this.

If she is not, there is a huge problem in your marriage that needs to be fixed. The counseling did not work. That is not very surprising as some counselors are not very effective. Plus most of the work of counseling occurs outside the office. The couple has to do all the work and find their own direction. The counselor is just there to keep you on track.

My suggestion is that you get the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". The two of you read them in that order and do the work that they suggest.

Find another counselor how is aware of those books and agrees to use them in the MC.


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## PM1 (Aug 9, 2011)

My perhaps over-simplistic view. You did fall into the "fix-it" trap, but I can see how you might be more likely to when dealing with someone who seems to feel that the world is against them. However, I disagree with some of the advice here. I tell my daughter, you have every right to feel however you feel, but how you deal with it/treat people is important too. You don't just get to get up on the wrong side of the bed and be an ass about it and the world is just supposed to deal with it. And her silent treatment is not healthy, and I have seen it referred to as bullying more than once.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Truckin, I agree with *Dutchman, Synthetic*, and *EleGirl* that your W might be exhibiting moderate to strong traits of a personality disorder. I say this because the behaviors you describe -- i.e., event-triggered irrational anger, controlling behavior, feelings of entitlement, lack of empathy, and always being "The Victim" -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). (And, to a lesser extent, Avoidant PD may be worth consideration.) Importantly, I'm not suggesting your W has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she might exhibit moderate to strong traits of it or another PD.

I caution that BPD is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot know the answer to that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD (or AvPD) warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as very controlling behavior, always being "The Victim," and rapid event-triggered mood flips.

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your W's issues. Only a professional can do that. The main reason for learning these red flags, then -- like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack -- is to help you decide whether there is sufficient reason to spend $150-$200/hour to seek a professional opinion.



keepontruckin said:


> Many times *I feel like I am walking on eggshells *around her for fear of saying the wrong thing that is going to upset her.


As Dutchman observed above, that feeling of "walking on eggshells" is a warning sign for being abused by someone with strong traits of a personality disorder. Although this is true for several PDs, the strongest association is with BPD. Indeed, the best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused partners) is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells._



> My wife doesn't really share her bad feelings. I can tell that something is wrong. She gets quiet, cold, stiff, basically emotionless.... Let me say that again, COLD for DAYS.


Whereas the vast majority of BPDers express anger by throwing temper tantrums and yelling, a small share of them "act in" instead of "acting out" when anger is triggered. This "acting in" does not mean, however, that the partner escapes punishment. Instead, the partner is punished with icy withdrawal and passive aggressive remarks. A.J. Mahari describes this behavior as follows:_Silence, in this context, employed by a quiet acting in borderline is emotional violence. It is a weapon. It is abuse.... __The silent treatment is like the quiet borderline is saying - if I ignore him or her, I hold the power. I'll show you. I win - you lose. You'll learn that you'd better not fail to give me what I want when I want it because I want it. When you are weak I am strong. _See A.J. Mahari's Quiet Borderlines.​


> I ask her what the issue is and the answer is ALWAYS "nothing." This goes back and forth. After much prying, it turns out something is wrong but *she does NOT want to share it*.


Whereas Mahari refers to the "acting in" BPDers as "quiet borderlines," Shari Schreiber calls them "waif borderlines" and states:_If you fail to respond perfectly to the Waif's needs (which requires you to be a *mind reader*), she'll come across so hurt and disappointed, you'll believe you've committed a heinous act! It doesn't matter how lofty or thoughtful your intentions and gestures were, a Borderline will extract a pound of flesh from you for not intuiting her desires/needs, and letting her down. The upshot is, you'll feel horrible about yourself, and that's the intended consequence._ See Schreiber's  Waif Borderlines.​


> She does unusual things *acting like a martyr*.... She makes me feel like I am a bad guy.


If she has strong traits of BPD, that behavior is to be expected. BPDers typically have a stunted emotional development that is frozen at about age four -- with the result that they never had an opportunity to develop a strong sense of who they are. To the extent that a BPDer has a sense of self, it is the false self image of being "The Victim," always "The Victim."



> She has said that she doesn't like sharing with me because I make her feel like what she's feeling is wrong. A line she uses is, "You're basically telling me not to feel that way."


BPDers typically feel that their feelings are invalidated -- i.e., don't count -- all the way through childhood. They therefore carry with them, into adulthood, a strong conviction that loved ones do not value their feelings. My BPDer exW, for example, was convinced her feelings were always ignored and she had to input into what decisions we made and what purchases we made. 

If I bought my exW a surprise gift, for example, she resented my having been the one to decide what it was that was given to her. I tried to correct that by not surprising her with presents. Instead, I asked her exactly what she wanted. Then, however, she was resentful of me being the one to make the purchase, i.e., deciding when and where to purchase it. 

I tried to address that problem by giving HER the money and encouraging her to go out and buy something for herself. But her resentment simply shifted to resenting me for being the one to decide on the budget. I therefore found that -- short of allowing her to spend unlimited sums on herself -- it was impossible to make her feel like she had control over anything. She always had the gut feeling that her feelings and desires never really counted.



> I feel my wife is extremely sensitive.


Again, if she has strong BPD traits, that is exactly what you should expect. BPDers are unable to regulate their emotions very well, with the result that they often experience very intense feelings that distort their perceptions of other peoples' feelings and intentions. At times, these misinterpretations can be so strange and out of place that the behavior appears paranoid. This is why paranoia is one of the nine defining traits for BPD. 

Indeed, BPDers typically are so easily offended by remarks from loved ones that this oversensitivity is sometimes referred to as "emotional hemorrhaging." With my exW and her two sisters, for example, someone could tell a joke six times and everybody would burst out laughing. On the seventh time, however, the very same joke could easily offend one of them. The result was that it was common for two of the sisters to not speak with the third for several months. Then everything was okay again for many months until one of them said some minor thing that triggered the hurt and anger again.



> She does let the littlest things stress her out and feels many things in her life and our relationship are "not fair" to her.


As I said earlier, your W will always feel she's "The Victim" if she has moderate to strong traits of BPD. If so, then you will be allowed to play only two roles: that of "The Rescuer" and "The Perpetrator." Significantly, both of those roles "validate" her false self image of being "The Victim" because, if she were not a victim, you wouldn't be trying so hard to rescue her or to persecute her.

If your W has mild to moderate BPD traits, you can improve your relationship -- as *PM1* suggests above -- by validating her feelings, i.e., by making it clear that you recognize her feelings are very real and she will be held accountable only for her actions, not her feelings. Those validating techniques are discussed in many BPD books, e.g., the one I mentioned earlier. Yet, if she has strong BPD traits, my experience is that all the validation in the world won't make much difference until the BPDer has had several years of intensive therapy. 



> It is so frustrating and really stupid when it does happen and it seems like it's INSANE.


Yes, it can "seem" that way. Yet, if your W really does have strong traits of BPD or another PD, there is nothing "insane" or "crazy" about her behavior. Those terms commonly mean that a person has lost touch with physical reality, e.g., believing that the TV news announcer is speaking to her personally. In contrast, BPDers and other PD sufferers typically see physical reality just fine. What is distorted is their perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations.

The irony is that, in typical BPDer relationships, the partner who is most likely to start questioning his/her sanity is the nonBPD partner. Indeed, of the 157 disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual (DSM-5), BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be going crazy. The result is that therapists usually see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are losing their minds -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves. Fortunately, you say nothing to indicate that this is the situation for you. 



> Just looking for advice.


My advice, Truckin, is to see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your young child are dealing with. I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you read about BPD (and AvPD) warning signs to see if they seem to apply.

An easy place to start reading is my list of red flags at _*18 Warning Signs*_. If most of those signs sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings any bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, Truckin.


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