# Trying to understand... Trying to talk...



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

So my wife and I have been fighting. This morning, she asked if we should see a counselor. I said I'd be willing. Then she asked why we cannot just talk about it ourselves. I told her I just don't understand the points she makes, and she doesn't understand the points I make. 

I told her that I don't think it's fair that she wakes up late on my days off and I pointed out that waking up with our son and then falling asleep downstairs doesn't count because 15m later I"m up with both of them feeding them breakfast while she's asleep on the sofa. She doesn't see it that way, but agreed to stay awake with them in the morning. We will see, because she's agreed in the past.

I told her I was mad when I overheard her talking to her sister saying "we" did the laundry when I was the one who did the laundry. I was walking in when I overheard her, and she looked up and saw me and corrected herself and said actually he did it. I also pointed out that I did a lot more cleaning then just the laundry, but I didn't vacuum. After vacuuming she went back to telling everyone "we" cleaned the house. 

I also brought up sex, which until recently, I would be embarrassed to bring up. I told her that every time she says no, she's rejecting me. I told her that her excuses were very poor, and immediately remediable. For example, she's hot or sweaty. Or on a similar note, either hasn't yet showered or just showered. Or had just eaten, the rest of the family eats together. I told her that if she wants alone time after the kids go to bed, then disappearing to the porch to smoke cigs isn't going to solve it, it's just going to give me time to fall asleep. I told her that in the past, she's said if I did "blank" then I'd get more sex. So I'd do "blank", I'd make sure there wasn't any more "blank" to be done. Whether it's laundry, cleaning up toys, dishes, garbage, going out to dinner, etc... Most recently, and the thing that made me mad, was that I'd get more if I bought her more stuff. Let's just say I tried that. Most recently, I payed off $8k of her secret debt without getting angry or even asking her about it. Has your SO ever given you $8k no questions asked?

I asked her how she would feel if I rejected her when she wanted either a hug or a kiss. Then I asked her how she would feel if I said, "I'm too hot or if I said give me 5m and I disappeared." 

I told her that since she suggested sitting down for a family dinner, I've sat down with the family every time, and she hasn't. She goes outside and smokes a cig. 

I told her I don't appreciate what she calls her sarcasm and it's not that I dont get the joke. It's that the joke isn't funny. In my mind, she's using the word sarcasm because it sounds better then disrespect. I gave her the example of when she said I made my back go out on purpose so I wouldn't have to watch the kids. 

Her side of the story is different and I don't quite understand it. So she says that what I don't understand is that the kids are her priority. So everything else isn't important. I point out that I do other things while watching the kids. I pointed out that I did the laundry while the kids were awake. I completely agree that the kids are the priority, but that doesn't mean everything else is completely unimportant. 

She says she wants intimacy, but sex isn't the top of her list. OK. So I'm going to switch roles here. If I want sex, I try and do all of the things that would otherwise distract us before the kids go to bed. Chores, etc... Even when I do this, it never works out like I plan; she usually still goes outside and browses the internet and smokes cigs. She goes back to the kids being her priority, implying that she cannot do the chores and watch the kids at the same time. So she does them after. I point out that I manage to do chores when the kids are awake and she's asleep.

I blew up last week over my back. I inarticulately stated the above and wasn't calm. The other day, I thought we had a planned an "intimate night". I had unexpected surprise at work and had to clean up a makeshift homeless bathroom. So I came home and said I was going up to shower. She gave me a look, but I had to shower. I came down and was trying to lay the groundwork, but she didn't seem into it. I asked if she wasn't into it and she said "no". I said OK and gave up. She said that if I would buy her more stuff I'd get more sex. I've heard this before, and frankly it was the last straw for me. 

EDIT: OK. I'm going to post this without adding anything else. Her sister called me to ask what's going on and we had a long chat. I think her sister and I are on the same page. I feel a lot better, but I do think it's a long uphill climb ahead.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Buy her more stuff and you'd get more sex? Is she actually serious?


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

How are the kids a priority to her when she doesn't even get out of bed when they wake up? It's either you or your mother dealing with the kids in the morning. I think your wife needs to get a job. She's not cut out to be a SAHM.

ETA: From this post and your other post, it looks like your wife does the bare minimum around the house.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

You're being a nice guy doormat, and are very safe.

Ask yourself how many nice guy safe doormats get laid.

Oh, and stop the whiny blowing up at her. That's not cool and all kinds of not sexy.

Go do something else fun when she says no.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

lessthennone said:


> The other day, I thought we had a planned an "intimate night". I had unexpected surprise at work and had to clean up a makeshift homeless bathroom. So I came home and said I was going up to shower. She gave me a look, but I had to shower. I came down and was trying to lay the groundwork, but she didn't seem into it. I asked if she wasn't into it and she said "no". I said OK and gave up. She said that if I would buy her more stuff I'd get more sex. I've heard this before, and frankly it was the last straw for me.


Here's a quote that I used in my marriage when my wife was dropping hints about jewelry when she was all but checked out of the marriage:

Only wives that deserve it get shiny things. Not the other way around.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Despite the fact that I think she's being selfish, I want to work it out. We have kids. I want my kids to grow up with their two biological parents. That is my priority, and I'm not compromising on that. 

Any suggestions otherwise won't be helpful. I need to find out how to work it out. If you ask me strait, "Would you compromise some of your happiness for your kids well being, the answer would be yes, unequivocally".


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

lessthennone said:


> Despite the fact that I think she's being selfish, I want to work it out. We have kids. I want my kids to grow up with their two biological parents. That is my priority, and I'm not compromising on that.
> 
> Any suggestions otherwise won't be helpful. I need to find out how to work it out. If you ask me strait, "Would you compromise some of your happiness for your kids well being, the answer would be yes, unequivocally".


I don't think anyone has said not to work it out.

What I'm saying is that I tried the path you're on, and it got everyone all kinds of hurt and all kinds of not laid.

The counter-intuitive path of not being as nice and a lot more selfish (in an enlightened way) got everyone chilled out and a lot more laid.

What kind of guy were you when you hooked up with your wife?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Well, from what I see, she isn't exactly willing to work on it. I do think counseling is a good idea but don't hesitate to change counselors if you don't feel that's the right one. And remember that counseling is only helpful when both parties are truly motivated and willing to do the necessary hard work for permanent change.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

And children pick up on parents' unhappiness. So sure you can stay in the marriage if counseling doesn't work and she decides she's not changing -- just don't think your children will be unaware of the situation. Will they appreciate it when they are adults? Some do and some don't.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

marduk said:


> I don't think anyone has said not to work it out.
> 
> What I'm saying is that I tried the path you're on, and it got everyone all kinds of hurt and all kinds of not laid.
> 
> ...


I'm just saying that because I do see a lot of comments like "Leave, run etc.." Not necessarily in this thread, but in others.

When we first met, we were much more active. We didn't have our own house, so we spent most of the time driving or hanging out with friends. We literally went out every night because we didn't have our own place. She is much more social then I am, but even our friends have grown up, left town or gotten their own houses.


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## Maneo (Dec 4, 2012)

Openminded said:


> And children pick up on parents' unhappiness. So sure you can stay in the marriage if counseling doesn't work and she decides she's not changing -- just don't think your children will be unaware of the situation. Will they appreciate it when they are adults? Some do and some don't.



Sticking with the marriage no matter what is not always the best solution so I agree with open minded. Draw hard lines you won't cross can make life difficult. Where kids are involved I tend to think, the solution to family marital problems should have a high priority on what will be best for the kids in the end.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

lessthennone said:


> I'm just saying that because I do see a lot of comments like "Leave, run etc.." Not necessarily in this thread, but in others.
> 
> When we first met, we were much more active. We didn't have our own house, so we spent most of the time driving or hanging out with friends. We literally went out every night because we didn't have our own place. She is much more social then I am, but even our friends have grown up, left town or gotten their own houses.


OK, I'm not saying run.

What I am saying is that there are a lot of women out there with hormone issues that drive their husbands crazy because they don't want to get them sorted out.

And there are a lot of women who aren't into their husbands any more sexually that find it easier or simpler to say "it's hormones."

In my marriage, there may be hormone issues. But 90%+ of the "hormone issues" with sex went away when I worked on the attraction issues and stopped being a nice guy.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Your wife claims that the kids are her priority, but clearly they are not, judging by her actions. Things she has said lays it out there that they are nothing but an inconvenience to her. I still think a lot of your issues could be helped by insisting that she go back to work full time, this woman is NOT SAHM material.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

The last straw? As in you're going to get mad, again?

Who cares if you and her sis are on the same page? She doesn't have any more control over your wife than you.

You don't want to consider divorce, so start playing hardball. You didn't say what her secret debt was about, but take away her credit card (the kids are your priority). You do the grocery shopping and do not buy her beer & cigs (the kids are your priority). Bank accounts in your name only.

When her monthly horniness arrives, reject her. Eventually, she'll get the message that she needs to actually participate in a marriage to be considered 'married'.

Don't know why I typed all that. It's obvious that you're looking for that magical elixer that will fix all problems with no work on anyone's part.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Not here for a magic fix all, just good advice. On a forum, it's mixed; but I have selectively applied a lot. If you consider my initial effort of seriously pitching in with the housework, then I've done a lot of work. Only been on this forum for 6 weeks or so. I don't think it ever plays out how you plan, but in a lot of ways I have been getting tougher. 

She's not a terrible person, and though she goes too far with her words, she's nice most of the time. 

A lot of my previous posts got exagerated by other posters. Everything I wrote was accurate, but other posters exagerated. That's not to say she isn't saying outright wrong things or has bad behaviors, but if you consider my blowups; so have I. Unless that's getting tough?!?!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## texasoutlaw82 (Dec 27, 2013)

lessthennone said:


> Despite the fact that I think she's being selfish, I want to work it out. We have kids. I want my kids to grow up with their two biological parents. That is my priority, and I'm not compromising on that.
> 
> Any suggestions otherwise won't be helpful. I need to find out how to work it out. If you ask me strait, "Would you compromise some of your happiness for your kids well being, the answer would be yes, unequivocally".


My brother... Simply put, just because you're willing to go the extra mile to maintain the relationship and keep it moving forward does not equate to her sharing that same sentiment.

I commend you for wanting to go above and beyond, but I disagree that it has to be at your expense at all times. 

I envision you and her started the race together and somewhere along the way somehow things changed between you and her. It sounds like, from what I've read, that you're still in the race but it's almost as if she's got something else on her mind or something else going on to keep her from trying to maintain the same page with you. Counseling will only help when both parties involved share a similar goal in mind. If not, it'll be done in vain. 

PS. Your children will still have 2 loving biological parents even if both parents no longer cohabitate. Best of luck my good man.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Blowups are not getting tough. They are a reaction. Only you can control how you act and react. The same goes for your wife.

She has shown you that no matter what she asks of you and no matter how well you fulfill those desires, she has no intention of honoring her end of the deal.

Unless she is all in on the counseling, it will be a waste of time and money. She wants to talk it out between the two of you because she knows she can keep feeding you BS and you'll keep eating it up.

She wants to be a roommate, treat her like one. 180 her.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

lessthennone said:


> Despite the fact that I think she's being selfish, I want to work it out. We have kids. I want my kids to grow up with their two biological parents. That is my priority, and I'm not compromising on that.
> 
> Any suggestions otherwise won't be helpful. I need to find out how to work it out. If you ask me strait, "Would you compromise some of your happiness for your kids well being, the answer would be yes, unequivocally".


Your wife is a lucky women.

Basicly you just told me your old lady can treat you any way she wants and you ain't going anywere.....

Ya this may not sound like it helps you a lot but maybe you can start treating your old lady like a women and not a wife. Maybe if your old lady thinks you can attract other women she just might work at keeping you around....oh wait you ain't going anywere so why bother.

At the end of the day it time to raise your attraction level, work on you then it will be up to old lady to keep up.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Openminded said:


> And children pick up on parents' unhappiness. So sure you can stay in the marriage if counseling doesn't work and she decides she's not changing -- just don't think your children will be unaware of the situation. Will they appreciate it when they are adults? Some do and some don't.


I am one of the children that does NOT appreciate that my parents stayed together for the kids. It is one of the big reasons I am in group and IC. And the youngest (me in my own case) gets the brunt of the crap. Parents need to model HEALTHY relationships for their children, and staying together "for them" is not enough to accomplish that. 

Also, I am not sure how old your kids are (they sound young though), but your notion about sacrificing your own happiness for the benefit of an intact family for them is a short-term reality. After a decade of being miserable - once your kids are more independent... your tune is likely to change (because w/o effort, resentment and issues fester, and things get worse).

That said, I don't think that your marriage is beyond saving... I just think that you need to not only discuss and establish boundaries, but enforce them. This should be a collective effort -- where you each work to accommodate the needs of the other, without animosity or resentment.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

My mother chose to stay for me and I never forgave my father. I wish they had divorced. My son wishes I had divorced 30 years ago instead of last year. Parents think they are doing this great thing by remaining together and some children appreciate it. But some children wish that they hadn't.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I am glad my parents stayed together. I can only imagine how destabilizing it would have been in every way for everyone if they had not.

OP, the reason people are suggesting divorce is that it usually tends to wake up both parties. It can actually be a great motivator to both to reassess what they are contributing to the marriage.

It is common for one person to think they are doing everything right and the other person is the problem. Actually being deprived of the other person can provide a whole new perspective on what the other person may or may not be doing.

And your emotional moments are definitely reactionary. Not inspiring to her, I am sure. And her asking for jewelry seems shallow to me. 

Hope you two can work all this out . . .


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

If you're absolutely certain that divorce is not an option, then you have to do something else. Constantly talking and nothing changing is not going to change the situation one bit.

Start with her getting up in the morning. Tell her she has to get up and get the kids ready. Then, you get up and ONLY get yourself ready. When the kids starting whining for breakfast, tell them to go tell mummy. Then when you leave for work put them in her room.

Hire a cleaner to do the housework (I know you shouldn't have to) and then next time she tells you to buy her more things, tell her you would, but you need extra $ for the cleaner.

The clothes washing, wash your clothes, and the kids clothes only. That's IT. When she runs out of clothes, she'll have to wash her own - necessity is the mother of invention.

It's time to play hardball. Stop taking crap from her. She's walking all over you, and I promise you, every time you let her treat you this way she's losing a little bit more respect for - and it's clear she doesn't have that much to begin with.


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## pushing50 (Aug 5, 2010)

"Wife, I don't trade money for sex."


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