# Do I just set a deadline?



## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

I suppose I could make it regular sex, or even seeing a marriage counselor, possibly even just reading X,Y,Z book, by a certain date, and if not I see a lawyer and start things rolling. (I have to see a lawyer because I promised the "Considering Divorce" board that I wouldn't move out without doing so, and having some document in place.) 

If my wife were posting here, she would have her own set of issues -- he doesn't listen to me, he doesn't do anything around the house, I have to make all the decisions -- all as supportable and reasonable as my complaints. 

We have a trip to Italy, the town my father came from, this summer. That wouldn't happen or would be torture if we "separated" before it. So, I guess maybe that should be the deadline. Of course, by August, we may have something else (skiing in Colorado? Trip to Hawaii?) set, and the deadline gets pushed out. 

But I have accepted her complaints without pushing my own for so long that I am pessimistic she can find a way to come around. Though we are always on the verge of a fight, for the last month I have highlighted the things I've done (and often stopped doing) over the last six months to meet her complaints -- maybe not enough, maybe not effective but at least they were something. In response, no acknowledgement of my efforts, certainly no guidance on how they should be adjusted to meet her needs, and no efforts to meet my needs (no sex for four months now). 

So, is it a final effort? And in my mind, to I make that effort through Italy, or do I make the effort through end of May, then plan for post-Italy? By then, it will be more months without sex than months with sex. 

My kids are resilient, and with proper legal protection, I'll see them often enough. And without her, I can be the Dad I want to be. AND, if all goes well, I'll be getting laid. Hell, that has to be better than what I have now.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

1812overture said:


> I suppose I could make it regular sex, or even seeing a marriage counselor, possibly even just reading X,Y,Z book, by a certain date, and if not I see a lawyer and start things rolling. (I have to see a lawyer because I promised the "Considering Divorce" board that I wouldn't move out without doing so, and having some document in place.)
> 
> If my wife were posting here, she would have her own set of issues -- he doesn't listen to me, he doesn't do anything around the house, I have to make all the decisions -- all as supportable and reasonable as my complaints.
> 
> ...


Well setting a deadline without her knowing what it is or when it is would be pointless. Since you see that she has complaints about you as well is she at all interested in marriage counseling ?


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

A deadline for what exactly ? Are you in a sexless marriage ? If so, for how long has this been.

I personally am not one to schedule "nice" things like vacations when the relationship is having serious problems, but that is just me.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I'll have to go check out your other thread because my suggestion may be dead wrong based on info I don't have...

Setting a deadline is good. But it must be for positive effort to work on things. From your post above, your marriage has some serious issues for which you must have outside help in wading through the troubles.

My suggestion is the first deadline should be for initiating MC.

Second deadline is to see improvement in how you each relate and communicate with each other.

According to the above, you've been on defense for too long. Get out of defensive mode, but don't go into offensive maneuvers either. Come to the table to understand her issues with you giving her an opportunity to understand your issues with her.


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## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Well setting a deadline without her knowing what it is or when it is would be pointless. Since you see that she has complaints about you as well is she at all interested in marriage counseling ?


We've tried it three times. Each time she decided we should stop (the first two to find someone else). All was good when the early conversations were about me. When the spotlight turned to her, we had to find someone else, and then just had to stop. 

I appreciate your response, but I guess I am thinking, internally, I need a deadline or else it will continue indefinitely. I see pierrematoe at 17 months, and I know I don't want that. I see BB a few years into the struggle, and I can't help but think any window to address our issues has since closed.

I know her issues, she knows my issues. No marriage is perfect. But the things I point to that I am doing to address her issues are seemingly worthless, in her eyes. I've asked her what sees done to address my issues, and she says "nothing." 

Even if I am 80% to blame, if I work on four things, she should work on one. 



> According to the above, you've been on defense for too long. Get out of defensive mode, but don't go into offensive maneuvers either.


 It may be a little late for that. But, if I have a deadline, then at least while I am putting my issues front and center (she knows we don't have sex and it bothers me) I know I'm doing to get progress or get out -- not just to complain and respond tit-for-tat.



> Are you in a sexless marriage ? If so, for how long has this been.


 A slow slide for eight years. If once a month is sexless, then it's been at least four years. Total for 2014 is zero. Total for summer 2013 was zero. Total for summer 02012 was zero. When it's not once a month, it's zero (except for back-to-back days last fall.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

The bottom line is, a secret deadline is not a deadline at all. It's a nice-guy passive aggressive covert contract. I don't even care to hear about secret deadlines. They're pointless and childish. 

Now, on the other hand, if you're talking about setting a deadline that she is fully aware of, that's a different story. Then the debate shifts to what's the difference between a healthy boundary and a counter productive ultimatum.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> The bottom line is, a secret deadline is not a deadline at all. It's a nice-guy passive aggressive covert contract. I don't even care to hear about secret deadlines. They're pointless and childish.
> 
> Now, on the other hand, if you're talking about setting a deadline that she is fully aware of, that's a different story. Then the debate shifts to what's the difference between a healthy boundary and a counter productive ultimatum.


I think she needs to know, down the smallest detail, what you are expecting with respect to effort and change. She needs to understand what you want and what she needs to do, so that she can decide if it is something that she wants to undertake.

But I don't see a problem with not telling her when your deadline is. Most folks tend to procrastinate until the last minute. Giving a deadline tells her exactly when the last minute is and allows her to avoid doing anything until then. It also allows manipulation. She can do the minimum at the last minute, confident that she can draw things out until the next deadline. 

So I think telling her that you need to see improvements in the next couple of months is good guidance. I think telling her you need to see improvements by May 19th is not a good idea.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think she needs to know, down the smallest detail, what you are expecting with respect to effort and change. She needs to understand what you want and what she needs to do, so that she can decide if it is something that she wants to undertake.
> 
> But I don't see a problem with not telling her when your deadline is. Most folks tend to procrastinate until the last minute. Giving a deadline tells her exactly when the last minute is and allows her to avoid doing anything until then. It also allows manipulation. She can do the minimum at the last minute, confident that she can draw things out until the next deadline.
> 
> So I think telling her that you need to see improvements in the next couple of months is good guidance. I think telling her you need to see improvements by May 19th is not a good idea.


Your post is a good example of the debate between boundaries and ultimatum that I was talking about. What I don't like about secret deadlines is the passive aggressive nature of them. That's where you passively pretend like everything is ok, while the whole time you're counting down the days to the deadline. Then when it comes she's totally blindsided because she didn't even know the deadline existed. You see this a lot with conflict avoiders.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

1812Overature said:


> I know her issues, she knows my issues. No marriage is perfect. But the things I point to that I am doing to address her issues are seemingly worthless, in her eyes. I've asked her what sees done to address my issues, and she says "nothing."
> 
> Even if I am 80% to blame, if I work on four things, she should work on one.
> 
> It may be a little late for that. But, if I have a deadline, then at least while I am putting my issues front and center (she knows we don't have sex and it bothers me) I know I'm doing to get progress or get out -- not just to complain and respond tit-for-tat.


Maybe I'm unrealistic here but if you're really giving this marriage one last shot, complete with deadline, then you have to go ALL IN!

That means you own your side of the street fully and completely. That means that you also own and hold her accountable for making progress on her side of the street. Not tit for tat, not deflecting blame either.

"You say I get angry and shout too often. Okay I am working on that. Now I walk away for a time and calm myself then resume the discussion. Have you noticed that and is that working for you?" 

If she says it's not enough then you give it more effort.

The sexlessness is a serious issue. But a woman isn't going to want to have sex with her husband if the relationship sucks.

So where does this leave you? Making covert contracts and TAG and WOM have accurately mentioned will get you no where fast.

This is why you have to either go ALL IN to save your marriage, putting your needs on the back burner, or you simply end it. You now your wife better than anyone here. If she is a resentful grudge holding woman, you're better off leaving. If she is forgiving and open to really trying, it's worth a shot to save it.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I agree that, if there is a deadline, she needs to be aware of it.

Deadlines and progress need to be quantifiable, though. You can't just say "if we don't start having regular sex" or "if things don't get better" without qualifying it with some sort of data. 

Perhaps - I am seriously considering divorce and have made contact with a lawyer to find out what is involved. If you are feeling the same way that I am and are considering divorce as well perhaps we should split now. We could also give marriage counseling a 6 month try (regularly attended, doing homework for) and decide at the end of 6 months if we would be better or apart.

Warning shot, she knows you are serious, you give the relationship a long enough time that a false start won't be sustainable, and there is a point in the future where you both can decide what should happen.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

MissScarlett said:


> I agree that, if there is a deadline, she needs to be aware of it.
> 
> Deadlines and progress need to be quantifiable, though. You can't just say "if we don't start having regular sex" or "if things don't get better" without qualifying it with some sort of data.
> 
> ...


Yup that will get her raring to go....

I think you have to be very careful not to force someone into doing something... rather set the stage to encourage them to make the correct choice on their own.... people change when they want to or have to. Best is when they want to.

I'm ok with nebulous deadlines as my wife and I have. Its out there that the next talk we have will be about splitting...and we need to move away from the insanity


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T2,
You should recuse yourself from contributing in these type threads until you dig out of the 4 year false recon you've been in while your W has been banging another man in plan sight. 

You're so worried about coming across an controlling that you have turned into a champion enabler. 


QUOTE=Trying2figureitout;7729538]Yup that will get her raring to go....

I think you have to be very careful not to force someone into doing something... rather set the stage to encourage them to make the correct choice on their own.... people change when they want to or have to. Best is when they want to.

I'm ok with nebulous deadlines as my wife and I have. Its out there that the next talk we have will be about splitting...and we need to move away from the insanity[/QUOTE]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

1812,
Can you get most of the money back if you cancel the Italy trip?

Canceling the trip will send a real message that you are serious. 

In the meantime, I think it's fair to say that if your W is unwilling to:
- participate in counseling
- have sex with you
- actively and openly work on HER issues 
Then you might consider a temporary legal separation during which you get an apartment. This would be a formal separation with legal docs reviewed by your lawyer. You tell her that the intent of the separation is for her to have a chance to work on her issues. And that if she is uninterested in doing so, it is perhaps more sensible to move straight to divorce. 

Counseling HAS helped me and M2. However, I did need to point out that I was disappointed that she was so super sensitive about being criticized by me or the therapist. And also that I viewed her ongoing participation in therapy as a sign of commitment to the marriage. 




1812overture said:


> I suppose I could make it regular sex, or even seeing a marriage counselor, possibly even just reading X,Y,Z book, by a certain date, and if not I see a lawyer and start things rolling. (I have to see a lawyer because I promised the "Considering Divorce" board that I wouldn't move out without doing so, and having some document in place.)
> 
> If my wife were posting here, she would have her own set of issues -- he doesn't listen to me, he doesn't do anything around the house, I have to make all the decisions -- all as supportable and reasonable as my complaints.
> 
> ...


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

In my opinion, there comes a tipping point and when you are there you are there. Can you return from the tipping point? Sure you can - but something has to change THEN. Time to fish or cut bait. People can only take what they can take.

I spent half of 2013 in counseling for my marriage and sexual issues. On day 1 of therapy I told my counselor that my sexual issues were all my husband's doing. By the last day of therapy I had reached an understanding that we shared the issues and still had a long way to go. I am still working out my own issues and there are a lot of steps in the wrong direction. 

(Editing to add that I was the one at the tipping point and also the one who wanted therapy.)

Is it all your wife - of course not. It never is. 

Life is full of situations that reach a point where they no longer benefit us. If you have a job you dislike, that makes you miserable, that gives you pay decreases - should you stay with that job for another 5 years to see if things turn around?

No, you put in your two weeks and quit getting jerked around.


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## appletree (Oct 9, 2012)

Deadlines are not very smart. You reach a situation were you are not able to decide anymore. I would not like to feel cornered as well.
You do not seem to take her very serious. If you are doing things around the house and it is half made than it is worse than it is not made at all. First try to be the very best husband you can yourself and wait what happens. Otherwise you need a counselor. Read some books.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

1812overture said:


> I have highlighted the things I've done (and often stopped doing) over the last six months to meet her complaints -- maybe not enough, maybe not effective but at least they were something. In response, no acknowledgement of my efforts, certainly no guidance on how they should be adjusted to meet her needs, and no efforts to meet my needs (no sex for four months now).


I understand that is frustrating, but what about marriage counseling? From there, she might find the way to articulate how to meet her needs, and you might better be able to explain yours. I would certainly try MC before setting some deadline.


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## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

Theseus said:


> I understand that is frustrating, but what about marriage counseling? From there, she might find the way to articulate how to meet her needs, and you might better be able to explain yours. I would certainly try MC before setting some deadline.


We've tried marriage counseling three times. My view is when the spotlight turned to her, she became unhappy and sought another counselor (or ended it). Her view is that I am disingenuous during counseling, portray myself in a good light and make her look unreasonable. My response to that is that a good MC can't be easily fooled, I'm not trying to fool the counselor, and I'll keep trying. Why would I care about fooling a counselor if me life at home still svcks (but not in that way, badda bing!)?

Committing to counseling again would be sufficient to avert the deadline consequences. But I can't even be sure if she would view separating as a big consequence. Hell, she may be wondering about setting a deadline of her own.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

1812overture said:


> We've tried marriage counseling three times. My view is when the spotlight turned to her, she became unhappy and sought another counselor (or ended it). Her view is that I am disingenuous during counseling, portray myself in a good light and make her look unreasonable. My response to that is that a good MC can't be easily fooled, I'm not trying to fool the counselor, and I'll keep trying. Why would I care about fooling a counselor if me life at home still svcks (but not in that way, badda bing!)?
> 
> Committing to counseling again would be sufficient to avert the deadline consequences. But I can't even be sure if she would view separating as a big consequence. Hell, she may be wondering about setting a deadline of her own.


Yikes! This changes things significantly.

Can't go wrong following MEM's advice. Cancel the trip. Even if you take a hit, the seriousness of that message is a lot cheaper than divorce, right?


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Italy will always be there - even if it's sanctioned by the Russians.


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## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

There are others relatives, including older folks in both Italy and here (who are traveling with us) that makes it trickier. A number of tickets already purchased

We travel very well as a family -- though there is no sex. 

It's part of why I am wondering about a deadline. "I'll wait until X. I'll wait until Y. I'll wait until Z." My father always told me to break up with girlfriends before Christmas and before birthdays, and now understand completely why that is a good idea. There's always a reason to postpone. I'm thinking, for myself, I keep trying through the end of May (hell, even that is 10 weeks) for a trend toward regular sex, or at least marriage counseling, or at least acknowledgement that we can't fix the problem if she doesn't care about it -- all of it. At that point, I can focus on getting to Italy and back, then Sep 1 and beyond -- including finding a lawyer to help get things in order.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Break up now. That will wake her up and change her attitude. And if it doesn't, you'll get to go to Italy as a single man instead of with an anchor.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

1812,
Start the process now and let her decide if she wants to be civil and participate in the vacation or if she cannot be, and therefore chooses not to come.





1812overture said:


> There are others relatives, including older folks in both Italy and here (who are traveling with us) that makes it trickier. A number of tickets already purchased
> 
> We travel very well as a family -- though there is no sex.
> 
> It's part of why I am wondering about a deadline. "I'll wait until X. I'll wait until Y. I'll wait until Z." My father always told me to break up with girlfriends before Christmas and before birthdays, and now understand completely why that is a good idea. There's always a reason to postpone. I'm thinking, for myself, I keep trying through the end of May (hell, even that is 10 weeks) for a trend toward regular sex, or at least marriage counseling, or at least acknowledgement that we can't fix the problem if she doesn't care about it -- all of it. At that point, I can focus on getting to Italy and back, then Sep 1 and beyond -- including finding a lawyer to help get things in order.


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## dsGrazzl3D (Apr 22, 2013)

1812overture said:


> There are others relatives, including older folks in both Italy and here (who are traveling with us) that makes it trickier. A number of tickets already purchased
> 
> We travel very well as a family -- though there is no sex.
> 
> It's part of why I am wondering about a deadline. "I'll wait until X. I'll wait until Y. I'll wait until Z." My father always told me to break up with girlfriends before Christmas and before birthdays, and now understand completely why that is a good idea. There's always a reason to postpone. I'm thinking, for myself, I keep trying through the end of May (hell, even that is 10 weeks) for a trend toward regular sex, or at least marriage counseling, or at least acknowledgement that we can't fix the problem if she doesn't care about it -- all of it. At that point, I can focus on getting to Italy and back, then Sep 1 and beyond -- including finding a lawyer to help get things in order.


I was hoping not to agree with you about deadline, :scratchhead:***BUT*** I really do not see any fault in your efforts towards compromise. If you are being honest here (no reason to doubt you), then she should be able to go to MC fourth and final time. If she is not willing towards improving her marriage, then you should be able to go on offense here.

I agree about your deadline... Go for it. :smthumbup:


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## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Break up now. That will wake her up and change her attitude. And if it doesn't, you'll get to go to Italy as a single man instead of with an anchor.


That's what my Dad would have said (out of earshot of my Mom, of course).


> Start the process now and let her decide if she wants to be civil and participate in the vacation or if she cannot be


 That's got possibilities. It aligns with my "deadline" thinking, but creates two deadlines -- 1) prior to Italy, the topic of how, when, why we might split 2) after Italy, do we split or not.

There are other threads with similar challenges, but we are all at different points, and different people. 

Anon Pink wrote this to one of them:


> My husband was the same way only our issue was not sex but his ability to emotionally connect with me. He was flabbergasted when his reply to the above question resulted in me saying Not Good Enough!
> 
> He thought going to work every day, coming home every day, not beating me, not having addictions, and paying for everything was enough. Seriously, that is ALL he did.
> 
> ...


 That's what I DO! It's also what I'd like, but I don't get. But here's the trick -- my wife doesn't like it (when we were dating she asked me to knock it off) and her major issue with me is we don't "talk." I know I can't erase the 15 years where she believes I wasn't available to "listen," but now I make the time. And she fills it with discussions (normally heavy with complaints) of her frustrations of her part-time job, and the Church group she now heads up. Not emotions, fears, dreams, etc. Calendars, recaps, and complaints. I sit there and listen, and ask questions and/or offer suggestions, but I guess it's not good enough. I NEED A CHEAT SHEET, and I thought Marriage Counseling helped provide one. She didn't understand, I guess, that marriage counseling could also provide her a cheat sheet with what I need. 



> If you are being honest here (no reason to doubt you), then she should be able to go to MC fourth and final time. If she is not willing towards improving her marriage, then you should be able to go on offense here.


 It's my honest interpretation. A professional might be able to help me see a different perspective. But if I stay in the kitchen to talk while she's making dinner, it is too much to think that she, in return, ought to give me an unprompted hug from behind when I am washing the dishes? 

The maybe, just maybe, I'll understand what the hell it is she wants from me in these conversations, and maybe, just maybe, she'll understand that we can head to the bedroom together when the dishes are washed (and, shudder, maybe even before.)

So, if I make the time to "talk," but she can't reciprocate, maybe I just have to tell myself to throw in the towel at the end of May. And I'm not even sure I want to continue to make the time to talk.


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## JerryB (Feb 13, 2014)

Doesn't really seem like there's enough time for something to be magically fixed by the time the Italy trip comes around.

"I suppose I could make it regular sex, or even seeing a marriage counselor, possibly even just reading X,Y,Z book, by a certain date, "

From past experience, 'regular sex' can pick up for a couple months, and life always seems rosy when it happens, but it *never* lasts if the issue is not resolved.



I'd look into cancelling her ticket in the meantime and go without her. "Hey hon, I canceled your ticket and put the refund towards my lawyer's retainer".


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## Time4Joy (Dec 13, 2012)

My deadline was when the last kid left for college. Seven different marriage counselors over two years. Like you wife, as long as they were critiquing me, she was okay, but let one hold her accountable. Bingo. She was outta there. On way home from last one, I told her I was done and would be filing.

Last kid left. I left one week later. Divorced one year later. That was 15 years ago. Things aren't perfect now, but they are very good. And compared to the misery I endured at the hands of the ex, it's heaven.


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## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

Back from the trip. I wrote that we travel well as a family, and we do. Lots of good memories for everyone, all generations.
But, as with so many vacations, there were times filled with tension, a couple of small arguments, and of course no sex.



JerryB said:


> From past experience, 'regular sex' can pick up for a couple months, and life always seems rosy when it happens, but it *never* lasts if the issue is not resolved.


Hasn't lasted. This will be the third sexless summer in a row (at least). Things were looking good ever so briefly in March and April. "The issue" is, of course, the issue. The sexless part is as much a symptom as anything else, but (I think) it also helps define our different views on life and our different priorities. 

I suppose I'm glad I didn't tell her there was a deadline, because she met it, and now she'd say that she met it. But it didn't really solve anything. I'm trying to get comfortable with the idea of NOT seeing my kids every day, but the thought of it just kills me. I'm also afraid of the days when I'll wake up alone, wondering what they're doing -- the three of them.
But this one got to me more than other vacations. I was noticing sexy women walking around, and wondering what it'd be like waking up next to someone like that. I did (at least?) notice the sexy things about my wife, but it more just highlighted how far we've come, from the days when it was only a matter of time before that sexy thing was next to me, to realizing those sexy things just don't do it for me, anymore. 
Maybe she's felt that way about me for a long time.


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