# painful intercourse and marriage



## alol99 (May 11, 2017)

sorry this is a bit of a rant.

My husband and I have been together for 8 years married for almost 2 and we have an 11 mo daughter. We have struggled from early on with differing sex drives as my libido tanked in my late 20s, which I think was caused by BC. I then developed Vaginismus and vulvodynia. Initially my husband was very supportive in trying to repair our sexlife, we went to couples therapy and from there was able to find a doctor to properly diagnose my physical issues. I took all kinds of lotions and pills and even went to physical therapy. I also found out that I have a autoimmune skin condition that appears on my vulva contributing, or perhaps causing the pain. after all this we were able to have comfortable sex, and decided to get pregnant. We have not had penetrative sex since our daughter was conceived, since the cream that helped most with the pain was not safe to take during pregnancy. After pregnancy I have just been afraid with all the changes, although we have tried a couple times.

I am aware of my husband's need for sex, and so after the initial crazyness of being a parent wore off I tried to talk to him about how he felt about not having sex for so long. He reveled that he was actually pretty angry with me about it, something I had felt since he was often distant and short with me. We tried some non penetrative sex, but after a couple times of me initiating he lost interest. He also doesnt really touch or kiss me in an affectionate way anymore. He used to be very physically affectionate and want to cuddle, now he tells me no when I ask to cuddle, or he says yes out of obligation. He has said that he feels like we are roommates that are married, and he doesnt seem willing to try to fix this. He said no to more couples therapy and says I need to initiate. I am not okay with this situation. I dont want a loveless marriage and I dont want to be married to my roommate. the worst part is that we brought our beautiful daughter into this mess. Part of me feels trapped and I dont know how to begin to repair the damage except insisting we go to therapy. He doesnt seem to understand that I need him to make me feel wanted and desirable in order to feel remotely like trying to have sex.

On top of that there just doesnt seem to be the same love between us. I am often frustrated with him and feel like he is frustrated with me. 

I am not sure what to do. I want to have a healthy sexlife, but I feel like my husband doesnt find me attractive. Is this something that happens when people have children? is it a phase that will pass or is my marriage seriously damaged?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

This is a pretty good example of what happens to the love once the sex goes away. There's very little chance that he's going to put himself at risk emotionally to bring it back. Your marriage is at high risk right now, and your husband is vulnerable to an affair. Really, you can't expect a man who you won't have sex with to want to do things like cuddle, hold your hand, kiss or talk to you. That would be beyond frustrating for him and hurtful on your part.


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## adrienne.degrace (May 8, 2017)

He needs to make you feel loved, but I also think you need to initiate as well. Sex after babies is hard in the best of situations. I can't​ imagine what it would be like with health issues too. My husband and I went though the roommate phase after all three of our kids. It gets better in time but both parents have to work at it. 

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

alol99 said:


> On top of that there just doesnt seem to be the same love between us. I am often frustrated with him and feel like he is frustrated with me.
> 
> I am not sure what to do. I want to have a healthy sexlife, but I feel like my husband doesnt find me attractive. Is this something that happens when people have children? is it a phase that will pass or is my marriage seriously damaged?


It is something that happens when you don't have sex with your husband. Do whatever you need to do to address your issues (see the doctor, seek counseling, address childhood issues etc.) then go to him and tell him you are ready to try again. It is fairly unlikely he is not attracted, he is beaten down and discouraged.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

alol99 said:


> I am aware of my husband's need for sex, and so after the initial crazyness of being a parent wore off He doesnt seem to understand that I need him to make me feel wanted and desirable in order to feel remotely like trying to have sex.
> 
> On top of that there just doesnt seem to be the same love between us. I am often frustrated with him and feel like he is frustrated with me.


Cherry picked the parts that stand out to me. Parenting...the same pit many fall into. Child first!!! Child first!!! In reality, it is significant other first. The child follows behind happy when the parents are happy. The craziness of parenting which translates to neglecting each other brings you to the stage you are now. Room mates. 

Second, do you understand your H wants to feel desired and wanted? Referring back to child rearing. H took a back seat? 

Are you making your H first in your life? It appears you are putting the onus of attraction and wooing you to want sex. What are you doing to woo your H for sex? Initiating I see you are. But how. Does it appear to be duty sex?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

@WorkingOnMe is right on the mark.
.................................................................................................................................
Think of a tree that survived a huge windstorm.

It is still standing....but barely.

It has a serious tilt to it. After a few years, the roots have healed. The tree is permanently deformed. 

But the tree is on borrowed time. Anyone can see that it will go completely over and down in the next storm.

Gravity never stops. It is pulling the tree downward at a bad angle.

No tree surgeon can straighten the tree.

Once a marriage goes sexless for a long time the wood no longer responds to stimuli. To warm water and fertilizer. 

A man's wood is no different. 

The trust in marital intimacy is gone. Trust in the wife's intentions are nil. 

Bitterwood leads to conks and fungi on the shady side of the bole.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alol99 said:


> He doesnt seem to understand that *I need him to make me feel wanted and desirable in order to feel remotely like trying to have sex*.


What I'm about to say does not dismiss the physical issues you've been through, nor the rest of your post....but I'm going to point something out to you about the bolded part above....

He needs YOU to make HIM feel wanted and desirable, too. And while you went through all of these issues and weren't having sex with him, you made him feel totally unwanted and undesired.

I think women sometimes think that all we have to do is show up naked and any man is going to want to jump on us. But that assumes that men have no real needs, they are just "walking hard-ons". In reality, men have needs, the need to be desired for a man is just as important as it is to most women. His body may still feel arousal without feeling desired, but that doesn't mean he will want to proceed with sex if he doesn't feel desired. He may or may not feel desire for you at this point, but he certainly does not feel desired by you.

This will kill your marriage if you don't fix it. 

DO YOU desire your husband and want him? DO YOU feel he is sexy, does he turn you on? If you can't answer those questions in the positive, or if they are dependent on him doing a bunch of things first to "earn" your desire, then the answer is no.

And if the answer is no....why would you expect him to want to have sex with you, when you clearly don't desire him?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> DO YOU desire your husband and want him? DO YOU feel he is sexy, does he turn you on? If you can't answer those questions in the positive, or if they are dependent on him doing a bunch of things first to "earn" your desire, then the answer is no.
> 
> And if the answer is no....why would you expect him to want to have sex with you, when you clearly don't desire him?


QFT.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> QFT.




Seriously one of the best descriptions of that dynamic I've read. 


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

alol99 said:


> sorry this is a bit of a rant.
> 
> My husband and I have been together for 8 years married for almost 2 and we have an 11 mo daughter. We have struggled from early on with differing sex drives as my libido tanked in my late 20s, which I think was caused by BC. I then developed Vaginismus and vulvodynia. Initially my husband was very supportive in trying to repair our sexlife, we went to couples therapy and from there was able to find a doctor to properly diagnose my physical issues. I took all kinds of lotions and pills and even went to physical therapy. I also found out that I have a autoimmune skin condition that appears on my vulva contributing, or perhaps causing the pain. after all this we were able to have comfortable sex, and decided to get pregnant. We have not had penetrative sex since our daughter was conceived, since the cream that helped most with the pain was not safe to take during pregnancy. After pregnancy I have just been afraid with all the changes, although we have tried a couple times.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you are both looking for each other to lead the relationship.

If neither of you is willing to do it, you may want to separate. That way each of you will be free to find a leader.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> This is a pretty good example of what happens to the love once the sex goes away. There's very little chance that he's going to put himself at risk emotionally to bring it back. Your marriage is at high risk right now, and your husband is vulnerable to an affair. Really, you can't expect a man who you won't have sex with to want to do things like cuddle, hold your hand, kiss or talk to you. That would be beyond frustrating for him and hurtful on your part.


You really can't expect a man to go without sex in a marriage. If you withhold, don't feel like it or what ever the excuse du-jour is, you can expect your marriage to crumble. You're going to have to find way to make yourself available to him, pain or not or whether you want to or not, if you want to keep the marriage going.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Your marriage is on borrowed time. 

He sounds completely disconnected. And after 2 years of no sex, I will lay a bet that he probably is thinking about D and finding another woman to have a relationship with, no less than several times a day. 2 years of rejection and excuses will do that to a man. 

And, to add fuel to the fire, you believe, in the midst of all this rejection, it is his obligation to romance you and make you feel like a queen before you will consider sex with him. He is sick and tired of trying to romance you for sex, because all recent evidence shows that IT DOESN'T DO ANY GOOD!

I do sympathize with you. Childbirth is no little thing. And I am sure that these medical problems are no little thing either. But it sounds like you have a really patient, caring and understanding H. All of your issues have put him through the wringer. And he is pissed off. He didn't sign up for a sexless marriage. 

If you want to stay married to this man, it is high time you take the initiative and get on the horse. Make him feel wanted and desired. Because if he is half the man I think he is and you don't, then there will be a flock of other women out there who will.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> What I'm about to say does not dismiss the physical issues you've been through, nor the rest of your post....but I'm going to point something out to you about the bolded part above....
> 
> He needs YOU to make HIM feel wanted and desirable, too. And while you went through all of these issues and weren't having sex with him, you made him feel totally unwanted and undesired.
> 
> ...


Word...


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Have you explained to your husband your reasons for not wanting sex like you have explained it here? 

If yes then, well I think your husband lacks empathy and understanding. 

If no then, maybe you should explain it exactly the way you said it here. 

If his ego is still hurting then I'm sorry but he needs to get over it, you were ill, you had side effects from birth control and after giving birth to a child, did you do these things on purpose? No, so he needs to try and understand that these things happen sometimes in marriage. 

Initiating and seducing should be 50/50. It's complicated though, it's obvious that he has felt rejected, so perhaps make him feel wanted but explain afterwards that you too would like to enjoy the experience of being wanted by you also. 

If he's unwilling to see a therapist and understand that you are trying then honestly, he needs to grow up and get over it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

alol99 said:


> He reveled that he was actually pretty angry with me about it
> ...
> He said no to more couples therapy and says I need to initiate.
> ...
> Part of me feels trapped and I dont know how to begin to repair the damage except insisting we go to therapy.


At the core of human sexuality is challenging personal development, which usually manifests itself as a temper tantrum of sorts.

Your husband is not angry with you simply for not having penetrative sex with him, but he is likely mostly angry that you insist that problems can't be healed from within. When you insist on therapy he likely hears:

• I have no faith that you can help me
• I have no faith that we can solve this just you and me
• I do not care enough about you to try on my own anymore and just give up

He is angry, and he is now insisting you fix it and is refusing therapy as a way to punish you. While this seems childish, your marriage would likely benefit from him seeing you try all on your own to fix things and to be more trusting that he loves you and does not wish to cause you pain when it comes to finding ways to sexually connect with you. 

I will warn you that if you do try to initiate he will likely withdraw and insist that you can't as a way to hurt you even more. He will likely do this because he wants you to feel the way you have been making him feel so that you can begin to understand his anger. 

So there is no easy solution, but you will have to lean into the discomfort of this situation before things will have a chance to improve. 

As for sex being painful for you, creams, antibiotics, and ointments can actually make things worse, particularly if any of these contain substances to numb pain (as you are still hurting yourself but perhaps can't feel it). I would advise trying the following. Take a bath together, then using ample coconut oil try having penetrative sex that is motionless to help avoid any irritation to your vaginal lining. The coconut oil should sooth your skin as well as enhance the sensations of motionless sex. Stimulation while doing this should be derived from seeking a strong emotional connection, and reinforced by applying strong pressure of being penetrated. You can also contract your vaginal muscles as a way to pleasure him. The point is that there is no friction which is most likely the source of your pain.

If you still experience pain when having sex in this manner, you may need further medical assessments to make sure that nothing is prolapsed, scarred, torn, or that there are no abnormal growths such as fibroid tumors causing pain. 

Hope that helps, 
Badsanta


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Did you give your husband a constant supply of oral sex during the time vaginal sex was painful. It sounds to me almost as if you didn't. That seems like pertinent information. 

Unlike politicians, I do think oral sex is sex.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

I suspect the OP is not anticipating the answers that are posted.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Your husband feels emasculated and worthless in your presence. He's afraid of further rejection which would lead to him being further emasculated. He cannot be physically affectionate with you because he knows it might lead to sexual failure and the return of those feelings. 

I don't know what your plan is, but if you have any desire for him, you'd better learn to express it and very fast, even if you're physically unable to have sex. It took my wife a long time to learn this, even after I explicitly told her. By the time she came around, the damage to our marriage was deep and permanent. We will never be as close as a married couple should be because I simply cannot trust her to have my back. You should be very thoughtful about how to proceed from here.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

What you are experiencing is common, especially after having a child. Just so you know, my wife and I have not had intercourse due to various reasons, for more than 15 years and yet have had a full and rewarding sex life. Most women get their orgasms from clitorial stimulation anyway. I am going to put a link below that explains the various stages of love. It is short but interesting reading and something many married people go through.

Throughout our 44 years of marriage we have had our sexual peaks and valleys. Our solution is not a popular one since it involves non monogamy, what most will choose over their marriage. Knowing that sex produces the hormone Oxytocin which emotionally bonds a couple together, I set up one night a week for sex with no excuses. Be there or just tell me you are not in love with me anymore, type of thing. What we found is that even if we forced sex, Oxytocin was released and in a few weeks we were in lust again as well as love. It is one of those things that the more you do it, the more you want to do it and the opposite is true too. 

Let's be honest, sex does become boring and routine after many years. The eroticism, excitement and doing it differently, is missing in married sex for most. You start to take each other for granted. You need to talk to your husband and make him understand how important having sex is. Oxytocin is the same hormone that bonded you to your child. It is that potent so you need it or you will lose the intimacy and emotional bonding that makes a marriage survive. Our solution was not mainstream but it worked for us and worked well. Our sex life and marriage has been fantastic. Try talking about sexual fantasies and you may find some in common or take turns doing each other's fantasy. We have tried every fetish that most people are aware of and some that they are not. That always put a spark back in our marriage and when it got boring, we found another sexual fetish. I am soon to be 66 and we are still involved in sexual fetish play to keep things from becoming boring and routine. I have found that the secret to a great sex life is great communication. If you both are honest and not embarrassed to say what you want out of sex, you can find a way to give each other what you want.

How long does passion last? The four stages of love - TODAY.com


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Yeswecan said:


> I suspect the OP is not anticipating the answers that are posted.


OP did say it was a "rant", so she might have been hoping for some "you go girl" type answers that encouraged her to dig in her heels and wait for her husband to prove his worth. This kind of thinking has probably done immeasurable damage to marriages all around the world.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Tatsuhiko said:


> OP did say it was a "rant", so she might have been hoping for some "you go girl" type answers that encouraged her to dig in her heels and wait for her husband to prove his worth. This kind of thinking has probably done immeasurable damage to marriages all around the world.


I agree on all counts.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Sex being painful is a good reason to stop AND to also try to find a cure. If I understand the OP correctly, the pain issues have been resolved. 

For some people sex is just a thing that they do with their partners, for others it is an integral part of love. 

I have what is in most ways a wonderful wife, but she very rarely wants intimacy, and has stopped anything that could be called sex. I love her - but without sex it is like loving a family member - to me it simply doesn't have the intensity of romantic love. I'll go home, give her a kiss, ask her how her day was. Sunday I'll bring her flowers. I'll go through the motions, but I feel like I'm living next door to the girl I love, not married to her. 

I know that many people feel differently - they can enjoy non sexual romantic love. Some of us can't. 

The lack of sex is so frustrating that I need to build a wall - he same sort mental wall that keeps me from thinking my sister is sexy. But that wall stops more than just sexual desire, it stops love. 


OP - you need to find a way to fix this. You desired sex with your husband enough to have a child with him - you need to find a way to desire him.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Yeah, she bailed. Just ranting. Oh well.

I guess she has no interest in actually, you know, staying married. Bummer.


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## alol99 (May 11, 2017)

I appreciate all the responses, even if I dont agree with them all. It is good to hear different perspectives and some are very sobering. My H is a great guy and has been very understanding, and I am not trying to take advantage of that. 

I am not sure how to "make him feel desired" I tried complimenting him, affectionate touches etc, perhaps that is not the way. I was initiating intamacy, but as I said he eventually confessed that he wasnt interested. And not because it wasnt penetrative sex, he has said many times that he is fine with other forms of intamacy,whether or not that is genuinely true I cant say.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

My wife and I stopped having vaginal sex for a few weeks when our first was born. But she still made sure I had an orgasm each evening. She gave me oral sex and hand jobs. Personally I enjoy hand jobs from her while we kiss, so that worked for me as an alternate with oral sex.

So I would hope you kept him having sex every day during all the days you were off vaginal sex.

If he wasn't having orgasms during that time, then you are so far out of synch it is extremely difficult to think of how to restart your sex life. 

But the key is sex. Don't be shy. Don't be afraid to talk about sex as sex. It's all about sex.

If you want to save your marriage, you need to get sex going. In a big way. All the other things are potential pathways to kick starting sex. But if they don't lead to sex, they are useless.


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## alol99 (May 11, 2017)

Also, the pain issues are not resolved. And for the record vaginismus is REAL not a made up "excuse". Many women suffer from this and dont even know it because even gynecologists disregard a woman who complains of pain, and it is largely ignored. It took me a long time to find a doctor who understood what I was going through and didnt just give me an STD test and send me on my way. Imagine someone giving you a rug burn on your penis over and over again. You may not be so interested in jumping on the wagon then.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Yes. I know vaginismus is real.

Do you know most professionals consider it to be a symptom of underlying psychological issues? It is very real, yes. Certainly very real. Very painful. Yes.

Are you attempting to treat it properly?


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

And I want you to know I would never think you can just wish your vaginismus to stop, and have it be gone. I understand it is a condition which is not under your control.

Again, I do understand it is very real, and extremely painful. You cannot have vaginal sex as long as you suffer from this condition. That is not in question. And you cannot just wish it away. That is understood.

That is why I only discuss other types of sex.

I never suggested toughing it out and attempting vaginal sex.

But you didn't speak to a trauma which caused your vaginismus? You seem to think it might be related to Birth Control? I suggest it is not. You need to try to find a cause.


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## alol99 (May 11, 2017)

Sorry for the confusion, I was responding to therealmccoy with that post. 

My condition was probably the result of a number of issues. I say BC started it because it may have thrown my hormones out of wack.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Well, there are many theories of course regarding what starts the cycle of pain. Most counselors believe the cycle can only be broken with counseling, though. Perhaps it is just self aggrandizement on their part, but personally from what I have read of the condition I believe it is true. Once the cycle starts you cannot interrupt it without help. The best help is a good psychologist or psychiatrist.

But if you read much of what I write, you would find I am partial in that regard. They did help my wife.

As for sex, I think you need to loosen up and start talking about sex in a more relaxed fashion. So, did your husband get to enjoy a steady course of blow jobs while you have been unable to have vaginal sex? It is very important you kept him ejaculating. That is vital for a man. Vital. 

If you find it difficult to speak frankly about sex, or perform oral sex on your husband regularly while you suffer, for instance, perhaps that points to some of your issues which may be the root of why you suffer from vaginismus. You do need to consider any possibilities. Your goal is to solve this, not refuse to consider one possible cause or another because you don't like the possibility, after all.

Be prepared to explore.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alol99 said:


> I am not sure how to "make him feel desired" I tried complimenting him, affectionate touches etc, perhaps that is not the way. I was initiating intamacy, but as I said he eventually confessed that he wasnt interested. And not because it wasnt penetrative sex, he has said many times that he is fine with other forms of intamacy,whether or not that is genuinely true I cant say.


Do you truly desire him and think he is sexy, yes or no?

Sorry to be blunt, but if you can't say an easy yes, then it will be obvious why he doesn't feel desired by you. He will know this, whether you are affectionate or initiating or not.

If the answer is no, are you willing to find your desire for him again by looking within?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

WilliamM said:


> Well, there are many theories of course regarding what starts the cycle of pain. Most counselors believe the cycle can only be broken with counseling, though. Perhaps it is just self aggrandizement on their part, but personally from what I have read of the condition I believe it is true. Once the cycle starts you cannot interrupt it without help. The best help is a good psychologist or psychiatrist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




When she says not penetrative I think she means hand jobs. I find hand jobs to be inadequate and a big turn off. Most women don't seem to be good at them anyway. It's like 'what's the absolute most sterile non erotic thing I can do'? Wonder if she wore a latex glove to do it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Do you truly desire him and think he is sexy, yes or no?
> 
> Sorry to be blunt, but if you can't say an easy yes, then it will be obvious why he doesn't feel desired by you. He will know this, whether you are affectionate or initiating or not.
> 
> If the answer is no, are you willing to find your desire for him again by looking within?


Or how about just divorcing him? Are you opposed to that?

I can't imagine having the kind of pain that I have read about regarding vulvodynia and even attempting to deal with a husband's concern about his not getting intercourse. You truly have all my sympathy.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jld said:


> Or how about just divorcing him? Are you opposed to that?
> 
> I can't imagine having the kind of pain that I have read about regarding vulvodynia and even attempting to deal with a husband's concern about his not getting intercourse. You truly have all my sympathy.


I agree sometimes divorce is the answer. Sometimes people just aren't into each other enough to create a good sex life, and I wish they could just admit it/accept it and not be so hung up on it. 

This in no way means I'm saying "just give up". I am though saying be honest with yourself about it, and if you and your partner don't both feel mutual sexual attraction for each other, realize this may be a deal breaker eventually.

Couples who were once into each other have a higher chance of bringing it back, IMO.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I agree sometimes divorce is the answer. Sometimes people just aren't into each other enough to create a good sex life, and I wish they could just admit it/accept it and not be so hung up on it.
> 
> This in no way means I'm saying "just give up". I am though saying be honest with yourself about it, and if you and your partner don't both feel mutual sexual attraction for each other, realize this may be a deal breaker eventually.
> 
> Couples who were once into each other have a higher chance of bringing it back, IMO.


If I had vulvodynia, the last thing my husband would be thinking about would be himself. He would just want the best for *me.*


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Well, I find the way she avoids saying what type of non penetrative sex to be evasive. In my opinion it may have some bearing on her issues.

It just seems to me she is using too many vague non descriptions in reference to sex. Just say it, don't be so cagey. Talk about the sex her husband experienced while she was not allowing vaginal sex, for instance, in some clinically correct detail. We do judge, but like, who cares. She is the only one who cares. 

This is a forum about sex. It's indicative of sexual repression. Which might make sense in light of the vaginismus, for instance.

Just exploring, is all.


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## alol99 (May 11, 2017)

WilliamM said:


> Well, I find the way she avoids saying what type of non penetrative sex to be evasive. In my opinion it may have some bearing on her issues.
> 
> It just seems to me she is using too many vague non descriptions in reference to sex. Just say it, don't be so cagey. Talk about the sex her husband experienced while she was not allowing vaginal sex, for instance, in some clinically correct detail. We do judge, but like, who cares. She is the only one who cares.
> 
> ...


It was hand jobs and some oral. 

Im new to the forum, so wasnt sure of the decorum.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

My understanding from the OPs post was that this problem was in the past. If this is still an issue, then it is a different situation. 



jld said:


> If I had vulvodynia, the last thing my husband would be thinking about would be himself. He would just want the best for *me.*


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

What people think of as "sex" and what they enjoy varies a lot. For some oral is the equivalent of "sex" for others its not. 



alol99 said:


> It was hand jobs and some oral.
> 
> Im new to the forum, so wasnt sure of the decorum.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

jld said:


> If I had vulvodynia, the last thing my husband would be thinking about would be himself. He would just want the best for *me.*


Hmmm.

Don't be so sure. Years of no sex can make a man think. Whats in this for me!


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

alol99 said:


> It was hand jobs and some oral.
> 
> Im new to the forum, so wasnt sure of the decorum.


Was it frequent and loving or done out of obligation and begrudgingly? Did you use your condition to your advantage to deny him. 

Love isn't enough,love doesn't conqure all. Love is a choice and eventually most people who are not getting there needs met give up the ghost.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> My understanding from the OPs post was that this problem was in the past. If this is still an issue, then it is a different situation.





alol99 said:


> Also, * the pain issues are not resolved. *And for the record vaginismus is REAL not a made up "excuse". Many women suffer from this and dont even know it because even gynecologists disregard a woman who complains of pain, and it is largely ignored. It took me a long time to find a doctor who understood what I was going through and didnt just give me an STD test and send me on my way. Imagine someone giving you a rug burn on your penis over and over again. You may not be so interested in jumping on the wagon then.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Is this an accurate description of your pain, OP?

_"A *burning pain *is the single most common symptom of vulvodynia. Some women describe it as a *knife-like pain* or like *an acid poured on the skin*."_

Vulvodynia: Causes, Symptoms, and Treatments


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

chillymorn69 said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> Don't be so sure. Years of no sex can make a man think. Whats in this for me!


When a man truly loves a woman, he sacrifices for her. He does not put his desire for pleasure before her need to feel safe and loved.

OP, just read this response to a man complaining about his lack of sexual satisfaction due to his wife's vulvodynia:

_You have to understand the complete emotional devestation of feeling intense pain where others feel pleasure, and being expected to endure it constantly because it's apparently either all in your head (doctors can't find a physical problem) or your own fault (you're not relaxed, you're not lubricated, you're not turned on enough).

I don't mean to criticise you, as it's clear you care for her a lot, but you say that during the early stages of your relationship you had sex frequently despite her pain. I'm sorry to say it but this was probably very damaging behaviour. Even if neither of you knew she had a legitimate physical condition, to have sex with her whilst she was in pain probably led your wife to think that you don't care about whether it's comfortable for her or not, and that sex is more important to you than her feelings. I am absolutely not saying that this is true, I'm sure you care about her feelings a great deal, or you wouldn't be here, I'm just trying to explain to you how the mind of a vulvodynia sufferer works. We live in a society where we are bombarded by sex every day -- in movies, in tv shows, it's even implied in commercials and ads. Sex is the norm. And we are led to believe that men think about sex all the time, and that this is all that they want. Although we know this is not logically true, when you suffer so much pain in your most sensitive part, it can lead to all sorts of irrational and unpelasant thoughts about men.

Try to understand that for your wife, sex=pain, and after years of being with you she thinks that physical contant will always lead to sex. You should work on building your physical relationship from the very foundations, with just cuddling. Your begging for handjobs is not helping things either. If you want her to trust you with her body again, you have to make it clear to her that you are not seeking your own sexual release, and that your only goal is to make her feel comfortable and loved. Make sure she knows that cuddling/kissing is where it ends right now, and that it won't lead to anything sexual. She is only avoiding this simple imtimacy because she believes you want the night to end with sex, which is something she can't yet handle.

And when you move on past cuddling/kissing, every step of the way, make sure she knows that your only concern is what SHE feels. It may not sound fun for you, but your wife has endured a lifetime of intense vulvar pain, she needs to learn how to enjoy beeing intimate with you without worrying about what she's doing wrong, or what her limitations are, or how much pain she's going to feel. Things will become easier when she grows to trust you with her body again._

If you can relate to the advice being given to this husband, then I would say it is your husband who needs to be seeking advice, not you. Yet he will not even go to counseling?

It takes a special kind of man to love a woman with chronic health issues. A selfish, immature man cannot do it.

I would be clear with your husband on what you can and cannot do. He will need to decide if he can live with it or not. 

And if he decides to leave, consider it a liberation. He is freeing you so that a man who truly can love you is free to eventually come into your life.

Nothing you have said seems unreasonable to me, btw. Of course you need to feel inspired in order to want to be intimate. Nothing wrong or even unusual about that. I think it is a way Nature tries to protect women.

I would urge you to reconsider lowering your standards. And I would advise against taking responsibility for the relationship. I think you will just end up feeling resentful. And he will just feel justified in his self-pity and entitlement. It will surely feel like you have another child.

It is wonderful that you were able to have a child. Whatever happens to your marriage, your daughter will surely be an ongoing source of joy for you.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

jld said:


> When a man truly loves a woman, he sacrifices for her. He does not put his desire for pleasure before her need to feel safe and loved.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

If he sacrifices for her, in love, OP will surely respond. She does not seem like a self-centered person.

And fortunately, she does not seem like an enabler, either.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

jld said:


> If he sacrifices for her, in love, OP will surely respond. She does not seem like a self-centered person.
> 
> And fortunately, she does not seem like an enabler, either.


Thats the problem He feel hes been sacrificing their whole marriage.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

chillymorn69 said:


> Thats the problem He feel hes been sacrificing their whole marriage.


For sure, his chances of dealing with vulvodynia may be less with another woman. One statistic I read said that about 15% of women deal with vulvodynia at some time in their lives. He will have to take that into consideration as he makes his decision.

But not every man in a sexless marriage is dealing with vulvodynia issues. He may find himself less than sexually satisfied for other reasons if he leaves her. No guarantees.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

jld said:


> For sure, his chances of dealing with vulvodynia may be less with another woman. One statistic I read said that about 15% of women deal with vulvodynia at some time in their lives. He will have to take that into consideration as he makes his decision.
> 
> But not every man in a sexless marriage is dealing with vulvodynia issues. He may find himself less than sexually satisfied for other reasons if he leaves her. No guarantees.


Its a personal choice for each person. Lots of people leave a marriage because there is a sexual incompatibility.

typically theres no guarantee in life but nothing ventured nothing gained.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> When a man truly loves a woman, he sacrifices for her. He does not put his desire for pleasure before her need to feel safe and loved.


Note that the converse is true is well. Right now her husband does not feel loved. Your implication that a sexual relationship is just about superficial pleasure is something out of a different century. But I suspect that you change your tune when you need to argue on behalf of a woman. A wife needs to feel "loved" after all. This selfish manifestation of feminism might serve to destroy her marriage. The fact that you are already suggesting divorce at this point is very telling.

What I'm not hearing from the OP is any reiteration of desire for her husband. My guess at this point is that she'd prefer not to have sex with her husband, but would like him to stick around to provide support and limited affection. The affection part is very difficult for him, because it leads him naturally to want sex. Sex is his "love language." He knows that affection will ultimately lead to rejection and further emasculation, so he holds back.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tatsuhiko said:


> Note that the converse is true is well. Right now her husband does not feel loved. Your implication that a sexual relationship is just about superficial pleasure is something out of a different century. But I suspect that you change your tune when you need to argue on behalf of a woman. A wife needs to feel "loved" after all. This selfish manifestation of feminism might serve to destroy her marriage. The fact that you are already suggesting divorce at this point is very telling.
> 
> What I'm not hearing from the OP is any reiteration of desire for her husband. My guess at this point is that she'd prefer not to have sex with her husband, but would like him to stick around to provide support and limited affection. The affection part is very difficult for him, because it leads him naturally to want sex. Sex is his "love language." He knows that affection will ultimately lead to rejection and further emasculation, so he holds back.


The only person who can emasculate a man is himself. As MEM once said, "The only true emasculation is _self_-emasculation."

I am not sure it is feminism that brought about the idea of a man first loving a woman and earning her trust, thus inspiring her reciprocation. I think the Bible advises it as well.

OP, there is one point to consider in the above post, and that is what was said about your husband possibly holding back from affection as it may cause him to be aroused. Not that he could not physically take care of that himself. But emotionally he may want to connect with you through a hand job or oral. 

Now, if he is refusing that, too, I don't know what to tell him. His options are limited, after all.

I would indeed advise you to recognize the possibility of divorce. You are married to, in my opinion, a very weak and selfish man. That is the only kind of man who would put his pleasure before your very real pain.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

The problem is current, I bet. 

It's good to see we didn't scare you away yet. 

I do think this forum can help. Please keep posting.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> The only person who can emasculate a man is himself. As MEM once said, "The only true emasculation is _self_-emasculation."


Oy, what nonsense. We're expected to believe that people in marriages are not responsible for behavior that does damage to their spouse? "Sorry I had an affair, honey. But if you're angry, it's because _you_ made _yourself_ angry."


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tatsuhiko said:


> Oy, what nonsense. We're expected to believe that people in marriages are not responsible for behavior that does damage to their spouse? "Sorry I had an affair, honey. But if you're angry, it's because _you_ made _yourself_ angry."


Emasculation implies somehow taking away a man's sense of his masculinity, no? 

I don't think that can be done. He can only give that power over him away. 

As far as anger is concerned, remember that anger is the *second* emotion. Underneath it is usually fear or pain. Focus on resolving those, and your anger should not be such an issue.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

OP, in your first post you wrote:

"after all this we were able to have comfortable sex, and decided to get pregnant."

I think there is some confusion in the discussion on whether you are still having this issue - did it come back. 

I think everyone would agree that you shouldn't have sex if its painful, but should be looking for a solution.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> Emasculation implies somehow taking away a man's sense of his masculinity, no?
> 
> I don't think that can be done. He can only give that power over him away.
> 
> As far as anger is concerned, remember that anger is the *second* emotion. Underneath it is usually fear or pain. Focus on resolving those, and your anger should not be such an issue.


Yes, her rejection of him resulted in him taking away _his own_ sense of masculinity. It also caused him to make _himself_ angry. Probably caused him to give _himself_ some pain and make _himself_ fearful. I agree that a person is ultimately responsible for the emotions he/she feels--emotions are all happening inside one's own head. It's true that an abused child, for example, is giving power to the abusive parent through _his own_ hurt, fear, and anger. 

But our understanding of human emotions and interpersonal relationships stays at that superficial level, we won't be doing any favors to the OP's marriage. Why are we even in this forum discussing marriages, for that matter, since all people ultimately control their own emotions? 

I don't think it will be productive for her to offer tips to stop making himself feel less emasculated and worthless. He loves her--he needs to feel valued in her eyes. For most men, this comes through his partner's willingness to engage in physical intimacy. I don't think he should just learn to get over it somehow, and he's not even here to listen to that advice. I'm done with this threadjack.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tatsuhiko said:


> Yes, her rejection of him resulted in him taking away _his own_ sense of masculinity. It also caused him to make _himself_ angry. Probably caused him to give _himself_ some pain and make _himself_ fearful. I agree that a person is ultimately responsible for the emotions he/she feels--emotions are all happening inside one's own head. It's true that an abused child, for example, is giving power to the abusive parent through _his own_ hurt, fear, and anger.
> 
> But our understanding of human emotions and interpersonal relationships stays at that superficial level, we won't be doing any favors to the OP's marriage. Why are we even in this forum discussing marriages, for that matter, since all people ultimately control their own emotions?
> 
> I don't think it will be productive for her to offer tips to stop making himself feel less emasculated and worthless. He loves her--he needs to feel valued in her eyes. For most men, this comes through his partner's willingness to engage in physical intimacy. I don't think he should just learn to get over it somehow, and he's not even here to listen to that advice. I'm done with this threadjack.


If OP's husband is giving away his sense of his masculinity, that's on him. 

Unless you are willing to take responsibility for his emotions, OP.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> If OP's husband is giving away his sense of his masculinity, that's on him.


 @jld when a husband deals with sexual rejection it will eventually take a serious toll. When it goes beyond that to the point that any attempts to continue trying result in hurting your spouse, as a man you can't help but to feel hopeless in regards to enjoying sexuality anymore in the marriage. So you get this:




alol99 said:


> Initially my husband was very supportive in trying to repair our sexlife
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



If the OP has "given up his masculinity" it is likely that he has done so to be supportive and try and protect his wife from being subjected to any further pain. Not exactly fair to take his only solution to the problem and throw it right back at him as if it is the cause of the problem. 

Now does he deserve to be angry about it? I would be! Exactly how should he vent this anger? Well at least he is advocating for his wife to "try" as it is likely that he will not be able to keep himself held back much longer from either A) demanding to have sex and physically hurting his wife or B) ending the marriage and hurting his wife.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

badsanta said:


> @jld when a husband deals with sexual rejection it will eventually take a serious toll. When it goes beyond that to the point that any attempts to continue trying result in hurting your spouse, as a man you can't help but to feel hopeless in regards to enjoying sexuality anymore in the marriage. So you get this:
> 
> If the OP has "given up his masculinity" it is likely that he has done so to be supportive and try and protect his wife from being subjected to any further pain. Not exactly fair to take his only solution to the problem and throw it right back at him as if it is the cause of the problem.
> 
> Now does he deserve to be angry about it? I would be! Exactly how should he vent this anger? Well at least he is advocating for his wife to "try" as it is likely that he will not be able to keep himself held back much longer from either A) demanding to have sex and physically hurting his wife or B) ending the marriage and hurting his wife.


I don't think he has given up his masculinity. Think of priests. They live lifelong, celibate lives. That does not mean they have "given up their masculinity".

She offered hand jobs and blow jobs, I believe. He was not interested. 

He does not have to stay married to her. He can choose to end the marriage and seek a woman who he can have penetrative sex with.

But if he stays with OP, he is probably going to have to be open to what she can provide without pain, which is hjs and bjs, if he wants to be physically intimate with her.

And he is going to have to take responsibility for his own feelings, unless she is willing to assume the dominant role and take responsibility for them. And from what she has said about needing him to make her feel loved and arouse her in order to be intimate, I do not think she is wired to take on that role in the marriage.

Look, badsanta, I get that this is a ****ty deal for him. It is for her, too. Chronic pain is the pits. 

But that is their reality. They either face these troubles head on and come up with a plan they can both live with, or they part ways. That is how I see it, anyway.


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

jld said:


> Or how about just divorcing him? Are you opposed to that?
> 
> I can't imagine having the kind of pain that I have read about regarding vulvodynia and even attempting to deal with a husband's concern about his not getting intercourse. You truly have all my sympathy.


The husband has not had intercourse in over 18 months, and has a wife telling him he needs to make her feel special, desirable and wanted if he ever has any hope of getting there again. And she gets all the sympathy?

Understanding that while yes, she has health issues, that her husband has not had sex in well over a year. He has tried, initiated, been shot down. Been to counseling. Settled for the occasional sympathy handjob. Shouldn't matter. This is about her now. 

So leave the uncaring cad.

After the divorce, custody battle, pick up the pieces, and start dating again.

Have at least enough painful sex with the men you date to get them interested. Oh, you'll feel desired all right, because the poor schmuck is just trying to get laid, and is going to pour it on. And it will be painful, but you're going to feel so good with the shower of compliments and ass kissing, that you'll gladly do it. Long enough to get their feel good brain drugs flowing, fall for you. And then have this conversation with them:

"I need to be up front with you. Once you have fallen for me, I will probably lose all interest in sex with you because intercourse is painful for me. I will still expect you to compliment me, shower me with hugs, kisses, hand holding and cuddling, but you are to expect nothing further. Okay...if you MUST have release, I'll throw in a handjob every now and again. But if you ever want to have the hope that someday you'll have intercourse with me again, you will have to do the above. Then follow me to counseling when it doesn't work so the counselor can tell you how uncaring and selfish you are being. But don't stop going! I need the reassurance you will still work on this with me no matter how long we go without intercourse. I must warn you though, my last record was 20 months before my husband left me. I'm looking for a man who can put in the work LONG TERM if I'm going to submit to intercourse after we are married. I mean, 20 months....pffft. And by the way, even without the painful intercourse issues, my libido tanked in my 20's, so even if intercourse was not painful, ya know, I just do not feel a need for it very often."


OP, a lot of sarcasm in that post, and I don't intend to be mean spirited. But take away all the "woe is me" filter, and this is what it sounds like. I am trying to show you the road you're headed down in YOU don't find a solution for this and find a way to re-awaken his heart and interest in you. 

Or you can take the above route because you "must feel wanted and desirable" before you can even "remotely" be expected to initiate some kind of enthusiastic sex with your husband.

How about this for feeling "wanted and desirable"? You have a man who has not had sex with you in over a year and a half, and has stayed despite a "tanking libido" well before that. And he has remained with you. Uhm, well?

Yes, you have health issues. But he didn't cause your health issues. You'd better start looking for a serious solution to both that AND a way to repair what has been broken in him as a result. 

Or you can try your luck with the next guy who may likely NOT be as supporting, understanding, etc., as you said your husband was earlier on. And hopefully this next guy won't be an alcoholic. Or an abuser. Or jealous. Or controlling. Or has STD's. Or hates kids. Or farts in his sleep. Or.......

Try this.... start giving the man enthusiastic blowjobs, handjobs, cudding from your side. Enthusiasm also means being flirty and sexy with it. Not "oh honey, I'm not in the mood, how about a dry handjob instead?" Initiate, have fun, and and make it good. If you think your technique is not good, research how to videos. Make his pleasure something that makes you feel fantastic.

Nobody is saying have painful sex. That solution will not be immediate to be sure. But you can start working on the rest of it NOW, and there is no reason not to.

If he doesn't come around within a couple months of that, then I'd say it may be a lost cause. You'd better start showing him his needs are very important to you before he is really even going to consider your needs at this juncture. He tried to fulfill your needs and support you through this earlier on. It has gotten him nowhere.

On a final note, have you looked into "Femilift", "Thermiva" or "Intimalase" procedures? It is a fractional Co2 laser treatment for the vaginal walls. And it can help a good deal with vaginismus and a host of other things. If you have not looked into this, get google started up and start reading. Read the reviews from the women who have had it done, and how it changed their lives. Disregard the femi-nazi article or two out there about how this is targeting "women's confidence" and it will "set you back $10k" That is nonsense. And it works, and is a life changer for many women. Don't believe me, just go to "realself.com" and read these women's reviews in their own words.

If femilift sounds like it could be a solution for you, I'd discuss it with him enthusiastically as something you discovered and are anxious to give a try to attempt to fix these problems. I mean, you WANT this all to change, right? It may be a very real solution. And you can pay for it with the money you've been blowing on counseling.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

What none of us other than the OP can know for sure is exactly how much of this is physical and how much is mental and/or emotional. Even the physical is often driven by the mental/emotional. And OP may not even really know for sure herself, as it's easy to simply accept a difficulty as insurmountable and take the easy way out, not working to overcome--many self delude into thinking this is the only possible outcome. 

Not being satisfied _just _with HJ/BJ is understandable. Those can be great, especially as part of a well rounded sex life, but there is no substitute for the more standard form of physical intimacy. I suspect the husband's desire is (as previously noted by other posters), is to be desired; not to just get off himself, but to be able to provide pleasure as well as receive it.

Something else we don't know is how the OP offered HJ/BJ. Was it enthusiastic or reluctant? Was it out of a genuine desire to please her husband or just to toss him a bone? Duty BJ is no more enticing than duty intercourse. 

The other aspect of the concern for how much of this is physical and how much of it is fixable with the right attitude and/or medical help ties into the vows. In my marriage there has always been a mismatch, at times my wife's reluctance was physically based and at times it was just an inherent mismatch. When it was a basic mismatch and she seemed disinterested in trying to help close the gap from her end, that was a problem I saw fit to hold against her. But when she was facing a legitimate physical issue, even though I was facing the same lack of activity, I could in no way hold that against her. I take "in sickness and in health." very seriously. I could not imagine bailing on my bride if she couldn't, rather than wouldn't.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Unable and unwilling are very different things, but sometimes its difficult to tell from posts which it is. 

There can also be intermediate cases of someone who is "unable" to enjoy sex even though there are no physical issues.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Unable and unwilling are very different things, but sometimes its difficult to tell from posts which it is.
> 
> There can also be intermediate cases of someone who is "unable" to enjoy sex even though there are no physical issues.


After a while unwilling becomes unable.


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## alol99 (May 11, 2017)

jld said:


> When a man truly loves a woman, he sacrifices for her. He does not put his desire for pleasure before her need to feel safe and loved.
> 
> OP, just read this response to a man complaining about his lack of sexual satisfaction due to his wife's vulvodynia:
> 
> ...


You havent scared me away. And yes the vaginismus still persists. I need to use medical dilators and prescription cremes to make sex bearable. 

Yes this describes our situation very well. we discussed a lot of this when we went to counseling pre-marriage and baby. We worked on starting with just cuddling and kissing and working our way back to sex. It was a very frustrating process, mainly for me, and I dont think he wants to do it again. He doesnt think I really want to have sex and I am just doing it to keep our marriage together. But this isnt true, I want to enjoy sex! As the post you shared states sex has been associated with pain and embarrassment. even when we were able to have sex without pain it was not pleasurable for me.

I do find my husband attractive, but honestly when I found out he was angry with me my feelings for him changed a well and I dont have a strong desire for him. I tired talking to him to figure out how we can reconnect and re-spark our sex life but he seemed disinterested. Perhaps I am past the point of saving this marriage.

tatsuhiko, you say I need to make my husband feel valued by willing to engage in physical intimacy. Well I have done that on several occasions, and have been rejected. I told him I wanted to try again to be physical, but he doesnt believe me when I say I want to have sex, he thinks I am just placating him.


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## alol99 (May 11, 2017)

In the past when I offered Hj/BJ I was reluctant. I was resentful that he would insist upon feeling pleasure when I couldnt. at that time, I was angry about it and withdrew. That is not the case now however, I see that it was not useful to feel/act that way and I have been trying to make up for it, but as I said in the previous post he doesnt seem to believe me.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

alol99 said:


> In the past when I offered Hj/BJ I was reluctant. I was resentful that he would insist upon feeling pleasure when I couldnt. at that time, I was angry about it and withdrew. That is not the case now however, I see that it was not useful to feel/act that way and I have been trying to make up for it, but as I said in the previous post he doesnt seem to believe me.


Thanks for the clarification. It sounds like you set a precedent and once set, your husband refuses to see that things (or more accurately you) may have changed. Very tough situation. Most men would react badly and some are more easily beaten down than others. He may be such a man.

This may be extrapolating too far, but it is worth considering that he is fully checked out and needs to maintain you strictly as the "bad guy" to justify his emotional, and maybe ultimately actual departure from the marriage. At some point, he may have said to himself "I'm leaving and there's no turning back," but if you really make an effort and do all you can do, that would make him squeamish about a decision to leave you, so he has to cling to the "bad" you, lest he waver. He may even be doing this subconsciously. No way to tell over the net, just sharing this possibility because it's fairly common human nature.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> Look, badsanta, I get that this is a ****ty deal for him. It is for her, too. Chronic pain is the pits.
> 
> But that is their reality. They either face these troubles head on and come up with a plan they can both live with, or they part ways. That is how I see it, anyway.


I agree with you on that! 

I'll add that since they have an 11-month-old daughter impacted by these decisions that @alol99 everyone should advocate ways to help them be patient with one another. 
@alol99 is probably going to need to validate her husband's anger before he will be willing to work together in a positive way again. YES, that means she has to get involved about caring for his feelings, particularly the negative ones. Us guys are not all perfect and I realize that wives do not want to be made to feel they are caring for two children...

...but in my opinion women are strong! She should be able to muscle up the courage to help her husband deal with his feelings in a nurturing way, and THEN perhaps they can resume work on resolving problems with sex in the marriage.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Forgetting history for the moment, do you think you could both enjoy sex (oral etc) without intercourse?

If so it might be possible to reset things: to tell him that you really do want to enjoy intimacy with him, that you would enjoy giving him oral and other things and having him do the same for you. That you will meanwhile work on finding a way to make intercourse work again.

My wife has problems that if we go a while without sex, intercourse becomes uncomfortable and she wants it less often, and things get worse. We tried using small toys (we already used sex toys), frequently, and gradually working up in size. When we were able to try about 3x/week, this seemed to be working. She was enjoying it and we'd worked up to where she was comfortable with toys that were almost my size and we were about to try intercourse again. Then (as so often happens) she let things get in the way. 3x/week became 2x, became 1x became 1/2 weeks. Now its been over a month. As the frequency went down, the size of toys she found comfortable went down. 

She is older (50s) so that probably makes a difference, but I think that in some cases frequent use of small toys may let you gradually work up to larger things. 









alol99 said:


> In the past when I offered Hj/BJ I was reluctant. I was resentful that he would insist upon feeling pleasure when I couldnt. at that time, I was angry about it and withdrew. That is not the case now however, I see that it was not useful to feel/act that way and I have been trying to make up for it, but as I said in the previous post he doesnt seem to believe me.


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## alol99 (May 11, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Thanks for the clarification. It sounds like you set a precedent and once set, your husband refuses to see that things (or more accurately you) may have changed. Very tough situation. Most men would react badly and some are more easily beaten down than others. He may be such a man.
> 
> This may be extrapolating too far, but it is worth considering that he is fully checked out and needs to maintain you strictly as the "bad guy" to justify his emotional, and maybe ultimately actual departure from the marriage. At some point, he may have said to himself "I'm leaving and there's no turning back," but if you really make an effort and do all you can do, that would make him squeamish about a decision to leave you, so he has to cling to the "bad" you, lest he waver. He may even be doing this subconsciously. No way to tell over the net, just sharing this possibility because it's fairly common human nature.


I think he does paint me as the bad guy sometimes, but he still often does nice things for me like bring me flowers or desert treats, he made me a special dinner for my birthday, so I dont think he has completely checked out. Im hoping he just needs a break from dealing with our relationship stuff while work is difficult. 



uhtred said:


> Forgetting history for the moment, do you think you could both enjoy sex (oral etc) without intercourse?
> 
> If so it might be possible to reset things: to tell him that you really do want to enjoy intimacy with him, that you would enjoy giving him oral and other things and having him do the same for you. That you will meanwhile work on finding a way to make intercourse work again.
> 
> ...


This might be a good idea instead of the dialators which I use by myself. Thanks


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Alol99,

Although you can't have intercourse perhaps your H could masterbate you to orgasm. This could be a way to make him feel that you are attracted to him.

Are you able to come that way and if so could you do it with your H or have you also gone non-orgasmic?

Tamat


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Have you been seeing a psychologist about these issues?

One of the go-to recommendations to deal with vaginismus, and vulvodynia, is counseling. 

This site is a resource for good information. I'm sure you have already found it, but just in case:

https://www.nva.org/


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

alol99 said:


> I think he does paint me as the bad guy sometimes, but he still often does nice things for me like bring me flowers or desert treats, he made me a special dinner for my birthday, so I dont think he has completely checked out. Im hoping he just needs a break from dealing with our relationship stuff while work is difficult.




OP -
So he sounds like he still cares for you. 
What we're not hearing from you so far on your forum posts is you acknowledging the damage you have done to your marriage in your role as the sexually refusing wife.

A high drive early 30s guy who is routinely refused by his wife early in the marriage will be extremely frustrated. From his perspective, he is in the process of realizing that his wife doesn't value the relationship as much as he does. (And you don't!) 

Because if you loved him, you'd make the effort to do what's important to him, the way he's making the effort to do what's important to you. 

He is likely feeling that the marriage is extremely one-sided, and that he's doing things for you, and you are not doing things for him, and that he's really just being taken advantage of for what he provides for you.

Unless you are providing what he needs from you, he's right!

If vaginal intercourse needs to be off the table for a while, you need to be taking care of him with frequent oral and anal sex. Basically, repeated clear evidence of interest and attraction and fulfilling his sexual needs. Lingerie. Road head. There's lots of options if PIV is off the table for a while.

What's critically important is that he see you activity working to solve your medial problem, and to enthusiastically provide him with the sex life he needs within the context of your medical limitations. 

Here's my recommendation: Get serious about initiating and taking care of his needs frequently and enthusiastically. Then after a few months where through your actions you've consistently demonstrated to him that you are no longer the sexual refuser, then have a talk with him about non-sexual affection, cuddling, about your needs, about the other things that you need from him that you're not getting. I bet you won't have to.

But if you can't bring yourself to put his penis in your mouth 2-3x weekly for the next few months, and trying anal with him, then you need to realize that the fundamental issue is that you are just not attracted to him and you are never going to be able to make the marriage work, and you need to let him go.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anal?

Seriously?


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

jld said:


> Anal?
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously?




Sure. She needs to aggressively prove to him that she is a sexual being, has a libido, is attracted to him, and is willing to make an effort in the bedroom to stay married. That means getting out of her comfort zone, so yes.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MartinBeck said:


> Sure. She needs to aggressively prove to him that she is a sexual being, has a libido, is attracted to him, and is willing to make an effort in the bedroom to stay married. That means getting out of her comfort zone, so yes.


Totally disagree.


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

jld said:


> Totally disagree.




Love is a verb. If she's not going to make an effort, she doesn't love him, and should end the marriage.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MartinBeck said:


> Love is a verb. If she's not going to make an effort, she doesn't love him, and should end the marriage.


I don't think any woman needs to make those kinds of efforts.


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## TheRealMcCoy (Apr 13, 2017)

That's odd. You ARE deleting my posts on this thread. I thought I just did it wrong the first time. I wonder why?


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

@alol99


Don't do anal sex unless it is something that you find exciting and want to do 'cause it feels good to you.




In addition to using your mouth and/hands; you can also have breast sex, or some form of heterosexual "frottage" {him rubbing his penis on your groin or tailbone area}.

I mean, there are a lot of options. But I sure hope you can regain vaginal health using a good dilator set and healing the tissues of the vulva.

Have physical infections and other diseases been ruled out as a possible cause of your pain? ie. yeast infections, UTI's, IC. Does your gynecologist know the marital problems that your health issues are contributing to?


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

If you are in the nyc area these people helped me when no else could. They are amazing the docs truly understand women issue. I whet to over 10 docs in three years and my first visit and they knew what to do...SOHO OB/GYN ...in lower Manhattan. Good luck taking care of yourself.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

jld said:


> Anal?
> 
> Seriously?


Although anal sex is one of the things that my wife and I frequently enjoy. I concur the suggestion is hardly helpful and certainly barking up the wrong tree.


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## shellybell (May 13, 2017)

Hello Alol99,
Obviously this needs to be addressed right away. In case you haven't figured it out yet  Men and women speak different languages!! lol We REALLY DO. Communication is everything. With men, sex is visual, touching, kissing, looking, feeling. With US, the biggest sex organ is our brain. We have to be stimulated in a completely different way (as you know). I would suggest to your husband that you start dating again. Do the things that made you fall in love in the first place. Do little things for him, leave love notes, surprise him with special, "favors," the oral kind! I know that's very blunt, but it's amazing what that can do for a man  I'm SURE he still finds you attractive, he's probably feeling the same way you are, with a lot of frustration on the side........marriage doesn't just come naturally, it takes work.


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

His narrative of this marriage is that he is married to a sexual refuser who has ignored him since the pregnancy started. He's being used as a sperm donor and a wallet by a wife who doesn't love him. 

He hasn't had any sex in two years except for a few grudging get-it-over-with handjobs.

What she is doing isn't working and she needs to radically start acting differently if she wants to stay married.


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## alol99 (May 11, 2017)

I just started therapy for general/social anxiety disorder and may also speak to a sex therapist down the road. I have said it already, but my husband doesnt want me to just give him sex and pretend to be enthusiastic. I have been trying to initiate but he isnt interested in sex right now according to him. I understand and acknowledge my role in creating this situation. I appreciate everyones perspectives on this. I think shellybell is right, my husband and I need to bring things back to basics.


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

alol99 said:


> I just started therapy for general/social anxiety disorder and may also speak to a sex therapist down the road. I have said it already, but my husband doesnt want me to just give him sex and pretend to be enthusiastic. I have been trying to initiate but he isnt interested in sex right now according to him. I understand and acknowledge my role in creating this situation. I appreciate everyones perspectives on this. I think shellybell is right, my husband and I need to bring things back to basics.




It sounds like you are taking some positive steps and acknowledging your responsibility for this. Thanks for admitting to this. 
We're just a bunch of internet strangers though. You should have this conversation with your husband.


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