# distressed and floundering - lost in uncertainty (long, apologies in advance)



## WantWhatsRight (Nov 2, 2011)

*need a reality check (long, was: distressed & floundering ...)*

Frankly, I do not know where to begin. I am the type of person that recognizes complexity and, under the threat of great risk, occasionally become incapable of deciding between two ill-defined and largely uncertain outcomes.

That is to say, I am in a place where I could either choose to leave my marriage or I could choose to stay - and both options seem to offer potential for great grief and for great joy.

Given that basic decision as described above, and acknowledging my own firm belief in the sanctity of marital vows (not necessarily in a religious sense, by the way), I tend towards option B: stay and fight for the marriage.

My wife and I came into this relationship with a fair amount of our own individual "baggage". She, when we met, was a 33 year-old divorcee, who had shared custody of two young children. I, 31, had never been married - but was always gun-shy in large part because my desire to never get divorced (and yet, having never really experienced a true loving relationship).

We have always had a challenged relationship. Quite honestly, we never really experienced that "honeymoon" period of lusty infatuation that normally brings two people together. We had our first relationship-threatening fight approximately two weeks into our now 7+ year relationship. Yet, despite the absence of the typical "walking on air" feelings that characterize most relationships - we found a place of mutual agreement and mutual understanding that true, lasting love was to be found in real life and not in a fantastical place of infatuation.

We built our relationship, instead, on the cornerstones of absolute honesty and perseverance in the face of struggle. This is, in fact, the reason why I decided that this was the relationship to which I would pledge my lifelong commitment. I chose to stay with her, to modify my career goals and dreams, because I felt I had found a partner that would stand and fight with me (as in side-by-side) for the survival of our relationship.

I actually proposed to her under threat of an ultimatum. Not necessarily that I didn't want to propose to her - nor that I couldn't see myself marrying her. Instead, I had just finished a very (overly) long period of time as a graduate student and I had wanted a period of time (about 1 year) to establish myself as a professional and as a full adult living and working in the real world. She had different ideas. By that point, we had already been together nearly 3 and 1/2 years and she felt that we needed to get a move on. Particularly if we were going to try and have a child together. So she gave me a "propose in 6 months or we done" ultimatum. Obviously, I met the time demand, proposed to her, and we wedded in the middle of our 4th year of being together.

Unfortunately, that is where things really took a turn for the worse. You see, when we married, we had been through a little over a 1 year engagement. We attended and worked through premarital counseling. We actively sought and addressed most of the "key issues" that newly weds need to address.

We knew what we were getting into ...

We knew that our relationship was going to be a tough ride. We both are strong, educated, and opinionated personalities. We both believe in fighting for what we think is right. Neither of us, however, is particularly good at seeking compromise and dealing with conflict in neutral or positive ways. We knuckle down, dig our heels in, and fight for our position.

In fact, before we were married, I even said to her (and others) that I imagined that - some 20 years down the road - I could hear myself saying something to the effect of "Based on our courtship, I have no clue why we ever decided to marry, but I am glad we did, because we have a better relationship now than I ever imagined I could have". That is to say, I had high hopes that, once married, many of our power struggles would have been "solved" by default and we would recognize that we were now locked into this thing - together - and thus, we should work together to be happy and joyful.

Now, 2 and 1/2 years later, and things have gone the opposite direction. We fight constantly - and often, though not always, about trivial disagreements or differences of opinion. I feel that she is controlling and unyielding. I feel that I have no autonomy in our joint life and that I *always* must subordinate my needs/wishes/desires to the higher needs of the relationship. Yet, I also feel that she doesn't make the same level of sacrifice. I feel like a second-class citizen in our home - as it was the home she owned before we married and, as it stands, I moved into *her* house, occupied by her and her boys ... any space I take needs to not conflict with her or the boys needs.

As a result, I have progressively lost interest in the relationship. I have grown somewhat numb to the desire to experience love and joy. I started hiding my emotions in alcohol and other things (synthetic cannabis). Eventually, when holding in my emotions didn't work anymore, I acted out in passive-aggressive or just straight-out aggressive manners. I've yelled. I've put my fist through a door and my foot through a wall. Once, I slapped her after being taunted by her (she told me that I "have no balls").

Since the worst of our fights (back in October now), I have more-or-less quite drinking. I haven't touched the synthetic cannabis in over a year. I've stopped the yelling and name calling. I have been working hard to control my angry outbursts (currently enrolled in a second anger management class). I see a therapist weekly to deal with my psychological issues (anger, depression, etc). I am medicated.

Her issues, on the other hand, are justifiably focused on my bad behaviors. She worries about substance use, though she admits that now that I've exercised considerable restraint for quite a long time, she is less concerned about that. She fears my anger outbursts ... even though it has been 4+ months since I've even so much as raised my voice. Now, she is saying that she thinks I am incapable of being happy - even on my own, much less in a relationship with her or anyone ... she feels that while she may contribute to my issues (by "triggering me"), that I really need to learn how to be happy and not so depressed and angry before there can ever be substantive change in our relationship.

Thus you see, there is a complex and largely negative dynamic between us. We have tried so many things now. Personally, I have:
- been going to counseling
- taking (and tweaking) appropriate meds for depression, etc
- tried to do the "40 day love dare" (twice)
- tried yielding always to her and just dealing with my problems on my own.
- tried doing things to fulfill myself (such as joining a sports club, taking more college classes, exercising, dieting, meditating, etc)

Together we have:
- attempted marriage counseling
- talked with our pastor (though I remain agnostic, so this was of limited value to me in the first place)
- taking little "romantic" weekend trips together (most of the time we end of fighting at least once during these getaways)
- going to a couples weekend (i.e. Imago)
- tried the Gary Chapman "5 love languages" approach

I am sure there is more ... but suffice it to say, we've tried a lot of things, together and separately. Though I might argue that her focus, largely, has been on how to use these things to get me to fall into line rather than to assess her own contributions to the relational difficulties that we have. However, she is now seeing a counselor of her own ... so perhaps she is also beginning to work on herself.

Yet, today, I find myself just exhausted. I am not capable of functioning anymore. I literally accomplish *nothing* at my job (in fact, I am writing this on my companies time). I accomplish the bare minimum at home -- laundry, dishes -- but none of the projects that I have/want to take care of. I think of nothing other than how to fix this situation ... during all of my waking hours. I sleep to avoid it all.

In the last week, I came really close to leaving her. I have a place lined up to stay in the short term while I find some more permanent housing. I know my financial picture, within reason, and have worked out a budget for living separate from her. I've thought/fantasized about what my life might look like as a single man again (somewhat despondently because I am no longer in my early 20's ... but rather, a year and a half away from 40).

Yet I hesitate. I worry about plans we have coming up. We have a trip to Europe planned for next month. In a few weeks, I promised to be around the house so our new washer/dryer can be installed. I worry about the boys ... particularly the older one who has formed more of a bond with me than the younger one (both still live with their father half-time ---- so, really, if I leave, they aren't "losing" a parent). Nevertheless, I toil over the potential long-term effects on the kids. I worry about my wife, that she comes from a non-American culture that frowns on divorce and know that being twice-divorced would just add to the strain she already feels with her immediate and extended family members.

Mostly, I fear making a bad decision. I fear that there are options here that I haven't exercised. I feel that the opportunity still exists that she and I can make it work. I don't want to divorce if there is a chance that I can find a place of warmth, love, peace, joy - and even a little lust - with her again.

Yet I know the road will continue to be rough. I know that the issues we have will take more years ... maybe 5 or more ... to overcome.

And so I ask myself, how much more of my life to I want to give up pursuing a happiness that has thus far been elusive?

I've already moved beyond the point where I could have a child of my own. I've already undertaken a major diversion in my career path so I could be with her. I have separated myself geographically from my own family. What else do I need to give and what more can I compromise to make this work?

As I said in my subject line ... I guess I am just lost in the uncertainty ...

Thanks for reading.


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## WantWhatsRight (Nov 2, 2011)

Guess my post was too verbose. I'll have to edit it and try again.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

WWR, welcome to the TAM forum. I don't believe your post is "too verbose." Many members here, like me, actually prefer the longer posts because they give us more background to work with -- making it unnecessary for us to acquire the information by asking numerous questions.

Yet, although your post provides much information, it says little about what the problems with your W actually are -- other than her being too controlling, stubborn, and argumentative. I therefore have a few questions. Who is the person starting nearly all of the fights over minor issues? If it is her, how does she start them? Is she verbally abusive? Does she pretend that she is "a victim" and blame you for every misfortune? Does she has a good relationship with her two boys? Does she give you any reason to believe that she really loves you? How is your sex life with her?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I've read the post. To augment what Uptown is asking... could you give us a couple of examples of how these fights gown down? The dynamics are important.


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## WantWhatsRight (Nov 2, 2011)

Hello Uptown and EleGirl:

I think that I can be efficient and address (most of) both of your questions with a generalized example. However, to more fully address Uptown's questions, I'll have to provide some elaborations below.

So, the pattern of conflict between my wife and I typically goes something like this:

Context is commonly when she is in a mood of some sort - characterized by her acting a little "cold" towards me, responding to me with very terse statements, sometimes overtly sighing and making it clear that my attempts to interact with her are annoying to her.

Sometimes the problem is with me (something I've done, knowingly or unknowingly) and sometimes the problem comes from elsewhere (her job, her ex husband, the kids).

Either way, she always acts in the same way towards me and rarely gives me a heads up what's going on. So, I will start probing for what is going on. I immediately assume that she is upset with me, I start guessing at what I might have done to upset her, I get myself into a defensive state.

Then things will go one of two ways. Either I will give up and let well-enough alone and go to another room. Or, I will press on and start become more aggressive in trying to get her to talk. What follows is that we then start engaging in a negative cycle of communication. She becomes more terse and is inclined to respond with heavy amounts of sarcasm. I get louder and start casting blame on her for hurting the relationship by refusing the engage.

Now, I want to pause and say that - as of late (the last several months, I have been working very hard to short-circuit this whole negative cycle of communication. If the discussion is not going in a good direction after 5-10 minutes, I just excuse myself from the room and go watch TV or have some tea or something).

Anyway, when it has gotten worse than what I just described, she would start stonewalling me --- under the premise that I had gotten her to a point where she felt she could no longer engage the issue in anything remotely close to a positive/proactive manner. I, on the other hand, feel that I am being shut out --- which happens pretty much every time things get tense. So, wanting desperately to be heard and understood, I start demanding that she attend to me.

When it has gotten worse than that, it has elevated to her trying to leave the room and me blocking her way. On a few occasions, I have broken things (a floor fan, hole in a door, hole in a wall, etc). On a few occasions, I physically put her back down on the bed ... and then, as I mentioned in my OP -- once, it got enflamed even worse. She antagonized/emasculated with a statement where she said "you have no balls". In this one case, I spit on her and, separately, ended up slapping her (in response to her goading me to do it ... literally, and in the words "go ahead, I know you want to slap me").

So, again, since about October, none of these worse behaviors have happened. I have worked incredibly hard to remove all factors from my life that could inhibit my ability to control myself. I've more or less stopped drinking (meaning, I literally stopped drinking for several months, off and on throughout the last year, and now - I *may* have 1-3 drinks per month ... probably averages out to 2 every 2 months or something like that). I have worked extremely hard to recognize when I am getting angry and to take a breath or two (or three, until I feel my rational brain is coming online). So I don't think I have even so much as raised my voice since last fall.

Now, the way disagreements are going are a little muted compared to what I described above. She knows that I've been trying to be different. But, unless I completely let every negative instance/observation go, I occasionally have to bring up something that I find bothersome.

An example was last night. We were laying next to one another in bed and I had let our cats out of their room to play around us while we were watching TV. During this time, the cats would occasionally jump on the bed and sit in the way of my wife's view of the TV. Her response, each time, would be to sigh in disgust ... despite knowing cats are cats and that all it takes is a quick gesture with your foot to get them to jump away ... she would just sigh in disgust. At one point, I simply said "Are you aware of how often you actively choose the negative option for dealing with an unsatisfactory situation?" To which she responded "Are you aware that I am tired tonight and am annoyed that you let the cats out in the first place?". I tried to capitalize on this moment and illustrate how this was a bad communication pattern. She avoided my question and then deflected to something that *I* had done that was negative and, in her opinion, the *actual* root cause of the problem. At that point, I put the cats back away, said good night to her, and left the room to go sleep somewhere else.

So, to summarize, I think it is useful to answer Uptowns series of questions:

1. Who is the person starting nearly all of the fights over minor issues?

It depends on how you define the "start" of the fight. Most commonly, it is her attitude, mood, and overt expressions thereof that sets me on a course to start "picking" at the situation. However, another way to interpret this is that I am selecting both the wrong time and the wrong manner to address the issue. So, in that sense, I am the one that chooses to go forward with a negative encounter. (as a side note, it is almost me who escalates the level of tension/aggression --- she is good at remaining calm and using calm tones, though she will employ significant sarcasm ... it is that sarcasm that is one of my initial triggers where I start growing angry and things start going down a bad road).

2. If it is her, how does she start them? Is she verbally abusive?

I wouldn't say she is abusive. Though she tends to be critical, she tends to focus on the negative and not the positive (i.e. whenever I give myself a haircut, the first words out of her mouth are derogatory or mocking rather than positive). Even if she isn't being overtly critical or negative, she speaks loudly with her demeanor and body language ... sighs, eye rolling, eyebrow raising, closed arms, etc.

But, I would never go so far as to call her verbally abusive ...

3. Does she pretend that she is "a victim" and blame you for every misfortune?

Well, given the incidents that I described above ... and given the size difference between her and I (she's 4'11" / 115lbs and I am 5'9" 185lbs) and how I sometimes use it in a threatening posture, yes she does feel like she has been victimized. She also feels she has been victimized by the words that have come out of my mouth at the height of my anger (I curse a lot and use incredibly defamatory terms) ... given all of that, she does feel that if she's not regularly being victimized, she has been and has the potential to be again. She feels that her safety is a question for as long as she stays with me (she says this despite my ability to show her that I have changed and become much more docile for a protracted period of time ...)

4. Does she has a good relationship with her two boys? 

Yes, since the divorce in particular, she has been able to define a close and unique relationship with each of the boys. They are (generally) very respectful and obedient to her. They both love being around her and getting "mom time". They like to spend time just laying around next to her while she's watching TV and they are reading. The look to her for support and advice, etc. She is an excellent mother and her boys both feel very loved and cared for by her.

5. Does she give you any reason to believe that she really loves you? 

This is a tough one. She is from a culture that, in general, does not believe in giving a lot of overt expressions of affection (i.e. hugging, kissing, touching) nor many overt words of affirmation/encouragement (i.e. saying "I love you" or randomly saying "I like x about you). So, now, because I grew up in a family that does hug, kiss, cuddle, verbally affirm, etc ... I don't "hear" a lot of love in her daily actions. At the same time, she steadfastly maintains that the only reason she continues to fight for our relationship is that she loves me. She loves me despite feeling all of the pain that I am feeling as well. She claims she would have no problem walking away from me otherwise. In addition to saying that she loves me, as our recent reading of Chapman's "Five Love Languages" dictated, she's tried to express things in my love languages more frequently ... which, at this point, amounts to something discernible maybe once every week to two weeks. Of course, in my observation, the likelihood of these expressions is highly contingent on her mood and whether she feels like putting in the effort on that given day ...

6. How is your sex life with her? 

Another complicated answer -- and since this response has already raged out of control, I'll give the bullet points. She and I met in the context of a mutual interest in alternative lifestyles ... specifically, a mutual interest in the practice of (safe, sane, consensual) BDSM. We differ on how much this should be integrated in our lives. For her, it is like being homosexual in the sense that it is not a choice. It is something that is essential to her experience of intimacy and sexual gratification. For me, it's fun, it's interesting, it's potentially expansive ... but it is not a need.

More - I am on antidepressant meds (among others). I have a major problem with sexual desire for her (though, I do get "in the mood" and can "take care of myself" a couple of times a week). Nevertheless, the interaction of the meds and the context of our relationship makes it near impossible for me to have sex to the point of climax with her. So, even when we try, I most often resort to using BDSM techniques, combined with certain toys, to at least provide some of what she needs.

So, if we count BDSM "play", we probably average an episode or two every two weeks. If, however, you are talking about intercourse ... well, I think the last time I attempted intercourse with her was at the end of december (and neither she nor I reached climax, but I brought her to climax as described above). If I think really hard about it, I can probably identify a total of about 10 (or less) times in the entirety of last year that we had intercourse ... one quarter of which, I may have achieved climax/satisfaction for myself.

WHEW! Okay, you two asked me some complicated questions. So I hope the length of the response, again, isn't too offputting. 

Hopefully I can confine my answers and response to more focused questions/issues from here forward.

Thanks again for listening.


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## WantWhatsRight (Nov 2, 2011)

oh, one more thing on this - since I didn't fully answer Uptown's question:

"Does she pretend that she is "a victim" and blame you for every misfortune?"

On the victim part ... sometimes. However, in terms of ascribing blame for the problems in our relationship ... though she doesn't overtly admit/argree with the notion ... she really does feel that I am the source of a vast majority of the difficulty in our relationship.

Quick examples:
- I am a depressive and have been medicated since she met me. We did not live together before our wedding ... and so, after our honeymoon, I went off meds for a brief period of time and she saw how bad it could get. To her, that was the moment when *she* decided we would never have kids and that was the moment when she felt blindsided in the sense that she married someone with worse problems than she had imagined.

- She thinks that I have no self-confidence ... and if I had more self confidence, I would be more assertive about getting things done and standing up for myself in the relationship (which is paradoxical, as she always fights harder when I do stand up for myself).

- She thinks of me as completely disorganized and unable to manage things like household finances (neglecting, of course, that I lived a full adult life for probably 15+ years before I met her). But, since I have a more relaxed style, which also bleeds into the way I manage my time, she turns this around and calls me unreliable.

- She has said that I am "wishy-washy", that I never make a decision and stick to it. Again, a matter of personal style, I like to think that I adapt responses/solutions/situations as new information is brought to bear.

Anyway, the summary, then, is that --- if I could handle my depression, my anger issues, learn to be more reliable and less wishy-washy ... we would have a lot less difficulty in our relationship.

As far as she is concerned, her role is to learn to be more tolerant of me and work harder to express things in a way that don't trigger me. However, she see's no basic need to examine and change anything about herself beyond that ...


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

WWR, thanks for the generous amount of detail you provided in response to questions from EleGirl and me. One issue I would like to see you resolve is whether your perceptions of your W's motivations and intentions is often being distorted by intense feelings. This is an important issue because, if your view is distorted, it means that leaving your W will not solve the problem. Instead, you will only take it with you into the next relationship. 

I raise this issue because, in my experience with folks having difficulty controlling their anger -- as you have -- most of them lack good control over their own emotions. This results in their often experiencing intense feelings. This is a problem because, when any of us experiences intense feelings, our perceptions of other peoples' intentions becomes distorted. This happens so frequently that, by the time we are in high school, nearly all of us know we cannot trust our own judgement when our feelings are intense (i.e., very angry or infatuated). Of course, this is why we know we have to wait until we cool down before saying or doing anything.

It therefore is very unclear whether your W is actually "starting" the fights in a passive-aggressive manner with snide remarks, a denigrating tone of voice, or a dismissive rolling of her eyes. The issue is not whether she is doing those things. Of course she is -- or you would not be seeing them. Hence, the issue is whether you are misinterpreting them to be "about you," thereby starting the fights by "seeing" slights and insults where they don't even exist. My exW, for example, would often interpret my being grumpy (when I had a headache or was simply tired) as a personal attack on her. As you acknowledge, you are usually the first person to actually "pick" the fight and you do it in response to those perceived slights.

Regardless of the answer to that issue, I must say that it is rare for me to ever raise this issue with a person who -- as you do -- has had much difficulty in controlling his anger. The reason is that it is very rare for such a person to have the self awareness to see his contribution to the problem -- or to have sufficient ego strength to want to see his own contributing role. 

In contrast, you have an amazingly level of self awareness and seem to have much ego strength also. In addition, you are exceptionally articulate about what you see and how you feel. This does not imply that you are seeing your W's intentions clearly. Maybe you are and maybe not. Rather, it implies that -- even if you are not seeing her intentions clearly -- you stand a very good chance of doing so by continuing to work with your psychologist to clarify your role in the toxic fights. 

A second important issue is whether you and your W both have great difficulty handling emotional intimacy. That seems to be the case for you W, given what you've said about her great reluctance to show warmth and affection. Moreover, the sexual experiences you have had with her have been largely devoid of tenderness and affection and have focused, instead, on BDSM. As you said, she cannot be intimate without BDSM because "it is essential to intimacy" for her.

As to you, it seems you also may have difficulty with intimacy, albeit to a lesser degree. I say this because of your willingness to marry a woman who is so emotionally unavailable to you. Guys who enjoy being emotionally intimate -- and can handle frequent doses of it -- do not marry a person like that.

A third issue is whether depression is your main problem or, rather, merely the side effect of your having moderate to strong traits of a personality disorder (PD). Significantly, every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all of the PD traits. These traits become a problem only when they are strong enough to interfere with one's ability to sustain close LTRs. At issue, then, is whether you have any such traits at a moderate to strong level.

Finally, there is a fourth issue. I am struck by the fact that you've written several lengthy and detailed posts without once mentioning that you ever have _loved_ this woman. Instead of speaking about love, you say "We built our relationship, instead, on the cornerstones of absolute honesty and perseverance in the face of struggle." And you explain that you had hoped the love would eventually follow. If I understand you correctly, her love did follow (albeit without much show of warmth or affection). At issue, then, is whether you ever managed to love her or not.

With those four issues being unresolved in my mind, I have no idea what your best path would be. Even so, I am inclined to agree with you that -- until you have a better understanding of your role in the toxic fighting -- you likely are better off staying put and working hard to see if your marriage can be saved. My suspicion -- and it is only a suspicion -- is that you are carrying so much anger inside (from your early childhood) that you frequently experience intense feelings that -- as they do with every other human being -- distort your perceptions of your W's intentions.


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## WantWhatsRight (Nov 2, 2011)

Looks like the response I started to write last night - and then abandoned based on how tired I was - was posted anyway. I blame my iPhone app :

Anyway, here are quick responses to your 4 points:
1. I rarely act based on periods on heightened emotion these days. Typically, I remove myself from the situation and only attempt to revisit it much later (I give myself a day or two - sometimes maybe even a week). 

Likewise, I try very hard to avoid decision making during periods of particularly high conflict or intense emotion. That is, i do my best to be a rational decision maker. In fact, that is part of my problem ... I have been thinking about this and mulling it over - literally - for years. I have, for the most part, felt these same things through many a season with my wife (even before she became my wife). In large part, our relational difficulties exist when we are "doing well" though maybe more muted in tone during those times.

2. As far as difficulty with emotional intimacy is concerned, i would not say I have major issues here (though one could argue that I have become more reserved in forming attachments with the passing of each failed relationship). Also, I should clarify on the BDSM. It seems that you assume that it and emotional intimacy are exclusive of one another ... This is not the case at all. In fact, if done properly, BDSM can take the intimacy in a relationship to a whole new level of depth.

What really is going on here, however, is that while my wife and I can independently form intimate connections - we have always had a hard time forming and maintaining one between ourselves.

3. On the notion of PD, I did a quick look up on this and can only conclude that my depression falls in this general category - but there isn't a whole lot additional going on that also falls under PD. in fact, I have been consistently in IC and medicated for the better part of 17 years now - with some small breaks along the way. So I'd like to believe that my counselors have it right in the way they've been administering my treatment.

4. You are quite perceptive about this past point - that without thinking about it, I often don't use the word love to describe my relationship with or my feelings for my wife. My brother and father have similarly called me out on this one as well. In fact, talking with my brother today, it became clear that he is convinced that I don't love her. He can't figure out why I am so adamant about working on this relationship - since he thinks it isn't love.

My position is that there is a basic core of love that I feel for her - but it is almost completely obfuscated by the broader context (as well as the specifics) of our interpersonal difficulties.

In many ways, we just "clash" as people ... Though, despite this, we both remain drawn to one another.

This may all be moot now. Apparently, this morning, she told the boys that I was going to have to move out because we are having problems ... Though she hasn't drawn any lines or demanded me to actually leave

She says that at this point, she just wants a resolution one way or the other - and she wants it now.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

WWR, I'm so sorry to hear that she's pushing for a resolution and decision at the very time that you are so undecided as to what you want to do. If the matter truly is rendered "moot" as you say, perhaps you will no longer want to continue our discussion. 

Yet, if you do, I must say that many of my questions were intended to get at the source of the anger you are carrying inside -- the anger that is so easily triggered by her tone of voice, attitude, and minor actions. Hence, at risk of driving you away, I will ask a few more questions. 

Did you have a bad childhood, experiencing any abuse or abandonment? Do you have any close long-term friends who live nearby? Do you get along with your brother (and any other siblings) well? Do you tend to categorize everyone as "all good" or "all bad" -- i.e., as "with me" or "against me"?


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## WantWhatsRight (Nov 2, 2011)

Uptown said:


> Yet, if you do, I must say that many of my questions were intended to get at the source of the anger you are carrying inside -- the anger that is so easily triggered by her tone of voice, attitude, and minor actions.


While simultaneously joking and being serious, I will say that if you can help me get at that - you'll have a friend for life. In short, because I have no clue why I tend to be so angry ... Not just at my wife or at certain people I work with, but at the state of humanity in general. I am really pained by the world in which we live ... But, I digress.



Uptown said:


> Hence, at risk of driving you away, I will ask a few more questions.


No worries - I am not easily offended or driven away.



Uptown said:


> Did you have a bad childhood, experiencing any abuse or abandonment?


No, my childhood was pretty good and normal. Two parents who are still together ... Pretty religious ... Neither parent drank or did drugs, no abuse, etc.



Uptown said:


> Do you have any close long-term friends who live nearby?


I have some long term friends around. People I have known for over a decade ... However, I hardly spend time with them in a social context anymore. Largely because, since I started dating my W 7 years ago, our joint lifestyle hasn't really fit with the kinds of personalities of my personal friends. None of my lifelong friends live nearby - they are back in Chicagoland where I grew up



Uptown said:


> Do you get along with your brother (and any other siblings) well?


I only have one brother - 2.5 yrs younger than me. I consider him my closest confidant and most reliable source of no-nonsense opinions on my most difficult issues. In a strange way, though he is my minor, I look up to him.



Uptown said:


> Do you tend to categorize everyone as "all good" or "all bad" -- i.e., as "with me" or "against me"?


I try not to think in absolutes. Occasionally, when I get angry with someone, i tend to "write them off" for a while - though rationality most always wins out and I start to see both the good and the bad of the person.

This is also why I am so conflicted about my wife. I see a lot of the bad -- but I know there is still some good, both in actuality and in potential ...

Hope those answers are helpful.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

WantWhatsRight said:


> On the notion of PD, I did a quick look up on this and can only conclude that my depression falls in this general category - but there isn't a whole lot additional going on that also falls under PD. in fact, I have been consistently in IC and medicated for the better part of 17 years now - with some small breaks along the way. So I'd like to believe that my counselors have it right in the way they've been administering my treatment.


WWR, depression does not fall in the PD category. Rather, it is one of the "axis 1" disorders that are generally treated by meds because those disorders usually arise from an abnormal change in body chemistry. In contrast, the ten PDs are called "axis 2" and are not treatable by meds because they do not arise from body chemistry changes but, rather, from a dysfunctional thought process that the individual has used since early childhood. This is why PDs are nearly always invisible to the sufferer, i.e., he has been thinking that way his entire lifetime and thus can see nothing wrong with it.

I mention this distinction because, for us to proceed further in our discussion, we must use a common language to describe your behavioral traits. In this country (USA), that means talking about the disorders identified and defined in the DSM-IV (to be replaced in May 2013 by DSM-5). As I said earlier, an important issue is what the source of your anger is.

By "source," I don't mean "exact cause" because nobody knows with a certainty what the cause is for any of the PDs or other disorders giving rise to intense anger. Hence, by "source," I simply mean the pattern of dysfunctional behaviors giving rise to such anger. Presumably, because you had a good childhood, if you exhibit one of those patterns, it is because you inherited a predilection to it (but nobody knows for certain).

As to those "sources" or patterns, there are only seven conditions -- to my knowledge -- that are known to give rise to a serious anger management problem. One is Alzheimer's and a second is a head injury causing brain damage. Presumably, we can rule those two out because, at your young age, both are very rare. That leaves five others to consider: two axis-1 disorders and three axis-2 disorders to consider.

With regard to the axis-1 disorders, one is called IED (Intermittent Explosive Disorder). When it was added to the DSM in 1980, the authors wrote that it was believed to be rare and the psychiatric community has generally held that view for the subsequent 32 years. Yet, in 2006, a study was published claiming that the lifetime incidence of IED was really 7% of the general population. 

That study, however, used a very low-threshold for determining whether a person "had IED." Specifically, you were said to have the disorder if you had ever had three bad physical outbursts in your lifetime -- a test that half the population might pass before they die. IMO, then, IED is a very unlikely source for the anger problems you have had, which are so serious that you've completed the anger management course on two occasions and your W is still fearful for her physical safety (despite your improved behavior over the past two months).

The other axis 1 disorder is called "adult ADHD." It is believed to strike males much more frequently than females. It's incidence in the general population is unknown, being variously estimated at 1% to 5%.

The remaining sources of such anger problems are the three axis 2 disorders (i.e., 3 PDs). These include ASPD (Antisocial PD), NPD (Narcissistic PD), and BPD (Borderline PD).


> I will say that if you can help me get at that - you'll have a friend for life. In short, because I have no clue why I tend to be so angry.


WWR, not having met you -- and not being a psychologist -- I cannot tell you what is causing your anger. I can tell you, however, where I would start looking if I were you. Of the seven disorders mentioned above, the one most closely matching your description of yourself is adult ADHD. 

The "Attention Deficit" part of that disorder could explain why your W claims you are "wishy-washy" and "completely disorganized and unable to manage things like household finances." 

Moreover, the "Hyperactivity" part of the disorder could explain the anger and impulsivity. It is common for adults with ADHD to have a hard time managing their feelings, especially when it comes to emotions like anger or frustration. The result is that they often have a hypersensitivity to criticism which becomes evident in a short, often explosive, temper. Another result is that they lack impulse control, making them susceptible to addictive things like the alcohol and synthetic drug you once used to self-medicate yourself. 

I suggest you see, e.g., Adult ADD / ADHD: Signs, Symptoms, Effects, and Treatment. Please let us know if it rings a bell. Also, please tell us what your counselors have told you about your anger source. After being treated for 17 years, you must have received a diagnosis from several doctors along the way.


> [I am angry] not just at my wife or at certain people I work with, but at the state of humanity in general. I am really pained by the world in which we live.


To the extent that this anger toward people in general is based on distrust of those other people, the distrust may not be fully explained by adult ADHD. Instead, it may largely arise from mild to moderate traits of one of the three PDs I mentioned above. Significantly, I am NOT saying you have a full blown PD. Rather, I am simply saying you may have some PD traits at a level -- perhaps only mildly -- above normal. 

Please keep in mind, WWR, that PD traits are not a disease like Chickenpox that one "has" or "doesn't have." There is no known disease. Moreover, everybody has these traits because, at a low level, they are essential for our survival. Hence, every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits ALL of the PD traits, albeit at a low level if he or she is emotionally healthy. The traits become a problem only when they are strong enough to undermine one's ability to sustain close LTRs.


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## WantWhatsRight (Nov 2, 2011)

Uptown,

Thanks for all of the valuable information. It's been quite a long time since I took a class in Abnormal Psych ... probably since the DSM-III was out ...

May I ask, are you a professional counselor or psych prof? You seem to have a pretty deep understanding of psychological diagnosis (to the extent that I am considering forwarding this discussion to my counselor and see what she has to say about your thoughts).

I will say this in response: you now have me thinking a lot about the extent to which this is an "axis-I" or "axis-II" condition. Thus far in my life, this has been treated as axis I (that is, primarily with meds --- and the list is very long by this point of all that I have tried). Moreover, in the long run I have found that, while the meds definitely have a stabilizing effect on me, I am still not making a whole lot of progress on getting to the root of the actual psychological issue or issues that I am dealing with.

Interestingly enough, I did not read your post before I fell asleep last night --- but, I was awaken at 5:00 this morning after having a dream that was immediately interpretable in terms of a potential source of my anger. I wrote a whole bunch of stuff down and then napped a bit more before coming into work. The interesting part, however, was that one of the immediate implications of my dream was that the source of my anger may be more aligned with what you describe as axis-II conditions ... that is, my anger may arise "from a dysfunctional thought process that the individual has used since early childhood" ...

In particular, a kind-of competition with my brother (who I hold dearly and in high regard, but who has also pretty much outperformed me - or shown me up - in every aspect of life for as long as I can remember) as well as a deep need to feel and be assured of the love and approval of my parents.

The conclusion that this leads me to (or at least leads me to consider) is that I married my wife because a life with her represented the life of my brother's that I envy. That is, she already had a nice home, in a nice neighborhood, with two loving children ... in other words, a life with her is/was something that I could proudly display to my parents and show them that their little boy has grown up and managed to do well for himself ...

Even though, in reality, I may not have actually been choosing my path to suit my own desires, interests, and needs.

Anyway, I'll hold off there ... as I feel like I have to talk with several people at this point -- my wife, my immediate family (mom, dad, brother), my counselor, and the psychiatrist that oversee's my meds. It may be the case that this new revelation leads to a lot of changes over the course of the next month or so ...

But it is the first time I have felt some hope in a while. Regardless of the outcome with my marriage, I think I am seeing a new direction in the pursuit of a happy life.

Thanks so much for keeping this discussion with me. Your questions have been quite helpful.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

WantWhatsRight said:


> May I ask, are you a professional counselor or psych prof?


No, I am not. I am just a guy who is sharing his experiences of taking a bipolar foster son and a BPDer exW to numerous psychologists -- over a 30 year period. It therefore would be very prudent to run anything I say by your counselor and psychiatrist before acting on it.



> I have found that, while the meds definitely have a stabilizing effect on me, I am still not making a whole lot of progress on getting to the root of the actual psychological issue or issues that I am dealing with.


IMO, you are wise to start exploring the role that may be played by an axis 2 disorder. Of course, whether the disorders are called "axis 1" or "axis 2" does not really matter much. Indeed, DSM-5 is folding them together to bring them into alignment with the way they are treated in the rest of the world. The only important distinction, as you clearly recognize, is that one type can be treated with meds and the other type cannot.



> The source of my anger may be more aligned with what you describe as axis-II conditions ... that is, my anger may arise "from a dysfunctional thought process that the individual has used since early childhood."


Yes, the disapproval (and perhaps distrust) you express for other people in general sounds so much like a trait of ASPD (Antisocial PD) or NPD. It is hard for me to believe that you got that disregard -- together with so much uncontrolled anger -- from ADHD alone. Granted, several research studies have concluded that explosive anger and extreme impulsiveness can be traits of adult ADHD. Those findings, however, are very controversial -- which is why DSM-IV doesn't show them in the list of ADHD traits.

Be that as it may, it really doesn't matter whether those two traits are attributed to ADHD or to one of the three PDs I mentioned. The reason is that medication has not been very successful in treating ADHD generally. And, more to the point, medication has not been very helpful in treating the anger and impulse problems you have been struggling with. To the extent that your issues cannot be medicated away, you have to work on them in therapy -- irregardless of whether you label it axis 1 or 2. The effect, then, is that you are mostly dealing with an axis 2 problem that cannot be treated by swallowing a pill. Again, please run this opinion of mine by your counselor.


> In particular, a kind-of competition with my brother (who I hold dearly and in high regard, but who has also pretty much outperformed me - or shown me up - in every aspect of life for as long as I can remember)


Perhaps so but I really doubt it. My understanding is that, when a person has an anger problem (and perhaps a trusting problem) as strong as yours, the damage to your emotional core likely happened before age 5, i.e., happened when you were trying to form a cohesive and strong self image at age 3 or 4. For this reason, I find it hard to believe that your rivalry with your brother -- which is common in nearly every group of siblings -- could have created such damage that it is hobbling you throughout adulthood with so much explosive anger. 

I therefore believe your brother's constant successes is an unlikely source for the anger and your difficulties in attaching to a partner. But, again, this is an interesting question to raise with your counselor.


> As well as a deep need to feel and be assured of the love and approval of my parents.


More important, do YOU truly love yourself and have a strong sense of who you are? The answer to these two questions will largely determine whether you have strong traits of an axis 2 disorder (particularly, one of the three I mentioned). I note that, if you do find that you have some strong traits of ASPD, BPD or NPD, your prognosis for learning to control those traits in therapy is _excellent_. I say this because it is rare for anyone with such traits to have anything close to your level of self awareness.


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