# First Timer, In Need of some real advice



## mscotthall (Feb 11, 2014)

Hello Everyone,

This is my first post here mainly because I have finally decided that I need to seek the advice and ideas from others for the first time. I am sorry this is so long, but I have a lot to get out and I hope that if even one person finds the time to read through all of this, maybe you can help me.

My wife (married for 9 years, together for 11) and I have been going through some problems recently and I fear that they may soon spiral out of control. Within the past 2 months or so, it seems as if we have gradually grown apart. About a month to 6 weeks ago, we finally discussed it and she acknowledges that there are some problems, but she thinks that my expectations of marriage are just too high. Around that time, I told her that I need her to be more affectionate and attentive to me and I said that because those things are important to me, they should be to her as well. She agreed, but since then we have had some real communication and closeness issues.

A few things about us: 
- We have been married for 9 years
- We have two great daughters (8 and 4) that we are both very committed to
- We work at the same place, although not necessarily together. (we are both High School teachers)

A few things about our relationship: Our marriage has been, on the whole, a good one as far as I can tell for the last 9 years. However, over the course of the last month or so, things have gotten bad as we have begun to drift apart. We don’t necessarily have a history of incompatibility (no more than most couples).

Not to sound like the whole reason for staying together is our kids, but I can't imagine putting them through the hardships of a divorce, custody battles and having to be shuttled between parents. I still love my wife very, very much and I believe she does as well. I want to save our marriage and not throw away all we have built together and our futures. My wife, has told me in the last couple of weeks that she feels like there is something wrong with her, in her mind, as she is (as she described it) apathetic and unhappy. 

She believes that she might have some depression issues and I understand that. I told her she needs to get help for these problems and she says she will, just waiting until it is more convenient (like during a school break). We talked a bit about marriage counseling, but agreed that maybe she needs to focus on her own issues first. She says that our marriage is just, “in a rut” and that’s common for most couple. She likened it to the “7 year itch”. 

The biggest problem I am having right now is that she doesn’t really want to communicate with me about her issues. She says that she wants things to be like normal, but it is so hard for me to act normally when I know there is this cloud hanging over us. What is even more bothersome is that she shares none of her feelings with me, yet she has had many “private” conversations with her brother (who I like a great deal and think I have a good relationship with). I just wish she wouldn’t shut me out. I have told her, just recently, that I think there is so much more going on in her head than she is willing to admit to me and so much more that has transpired than she has told me. I don’t necessarily suspect infidelity, but she has many friends that I do not know, including one guy in particular that I think is extremely untrustworthy. I, on the other hand do not have any friends that she doesn’t know or wouldn’t consider her a friend as well.

This morning, I looked at a text message on her phone between her and her brother, not because I am paranoid or crazy, more because I want just a glimpse of what’s going on inside her head. The text went something like this:
Him: Mom knows
Her: About Me… why did you tell her?
Him: I didn’t, she figured it out
Her: I’m f*cked
Him: what are you going to say if she asks about it
Her: I don’t have to tell her everything just that I don’t feel like talking about it

This scares the heck out of me because it makes me think that I am right in suspecting that there is more going on here. Unfortunately though, I cannot just come out and ask her about it, she will then feel that I violated her privacy and she will completely shut me out.

I really am at a loss right now. Any insight or help would be appreciated.


----------



## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

Time to do some covert research.
Start with the phone logs maybe.


----------



## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

I don't think that two people are fine and dandy and then suddenly "grow apart" in 2 months. Chances are there is something going in that is causing some of the friction in your relationship which coincides with the 2 month time period.

You say that you can't tell her about the texts, because she will "shut you out". Keep in mind, the fact that she confides in her brother and not you means you are already shut out. 

The main issue here is that she will not admit to whatever the issue is, and would rather run away from it. The focus IMO should be on getting her to open up rather than some sudden increase in affection.

That said, if it were me, I'd come right out and say "Wife, something is going on with us and if we don't solve it soon, I will have to consider divorce. I need to know what's really going on here." You do not have to specifically mention the text, and it's probably a good idea that you don't.

Stop thinking of it as worrying about what she's going to think about you asking these questions, and start thinking of it as fighting for your marriage. Before it is too late.


----------



## mscotthall (Feb 11, 2014)

Thanks... I tried that already and she says that she just wants to try to work through her issues on her own. Every single time I bring it up, she says she can't believe we ALWAYS have to talk about this!!

She keeps insisting that she just wants me to have normal conversations with her instead of these deep soul-searching kinds. 

Today, I am really close to just giving up and not trying anymore... meaning, I won't even bring it up, I won't show affection or try to have any closeness. No, I don't plan on that being a permanent arrangement, rather, I am thinking I would give it a few days to a week and see where we are then...

Am I making sense or is that totally off base. I don't like the idea of threatening divorce, we have made those threats before and I don't like to acknowledge that as a "way out".


----------



## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

This sounds difficult. You have my sympathy.

If she says she just wants normal conversation, I would be inclined to indulge, even if only for a little while.

Are you familiar with the Five Love Languages and His Needs Her Needs? They are worth reading if you are not as they help with thinking about married life.

A question for you to consider - do you still behave towards your wife the way you did when you wooed her? If not, how have you changed? There is a fair chance that, if you reverse the changes, things will improve.


----------



## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

I think you really should consider monitoring more of her texts and communications with others. After reading those texts, I would say infidelity is perhaps the reason why she is so unwilling to talk about it. In fact, it has to be something that she doesn't want to discuss with her mom. When I don't want to discuss things with my mother, it is usually because I am ashamed of my behavior and know it is wrong. Whatever it is, you have to snoop around until you find out. It is obvious she will keep avoiding you and the topic. I found out about my ex husband's cheating by monitoring his phone, not because he offered the information to me. If you want to fight for your marriage, you need to start taking action.


----------



## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

mscotthall said:


> Thanks... I tried that already and she says that she just wants to try to work through her issues on her own. Every single time I bring it up, she says she can't believe we ALWAYS have to talk about this!!


I just wanted to point out something about this. She's not working them out on her own. She's working them out with someone who is not you, and that affects your marriage.

She wants normal, non-soul searching conversations... with you. She's taking the private, intimate conversations to her brother.

She is using whatever soul searching energy she has on her brother, and not you. That's the problem.

So, if you want to wait a week, my bet is you'll be back here in a week saying nothing has changed.

You might try something like - Ok, I'll tone down the emotional conversations a notch, but in return, if you feel like having one, come to me and not your brother. Hopefully she'll see the value in that.

I don't think the situation gets any better until she makes some sort of change, unless you can be happy in your shut out state indefinitely.


----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Wow, the first thing that struck me is that your expectations of marriage *should* be that the husband and wife prioritize the marriage, which your wife is not doing. When she says you put too high of expectations on marriage, this is the question I would ask of her. "What is too high about expecting that we commit to our marriage being good?" 

The second thing that struck me is the linguistics of her text with her brother. She didn't say, "Mom knows about it?" She said mom knows "about me." This means she's not hiding something she is DOING necessarily (although this may be present) but is hiding something about herself - something she believes is part of "how she's made." My first thought is that she has come to suspect she is bi or lesbian if mom really "guessed" it, but it could also be a disease or an addiction. 

If I was in your shoes, I'd confront with the text message. "Honey, I do value our marriage above all else, and I am desperate to know why it's falling apart. So I read your texts with Brother and saw this. What do you feel is so bad that you can't let your family know?"


----------



## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Will her brother or her mother help you out here?

Tell them it would be nice to know what you are dealing with.

She is shutting you out, she is not fixing it on her own and she is building a wall between you. How high is she going to build the wall? If it gets too big, and wide, it can take too much work to tear it down.

How would she feel if you shut her out and started building your own wall? Is that what she wants?


----------



## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Sorry you are here Scott. As soon as you stated you are both school teachers my heart sunk. The teaching profession is a hotbed for affairs. How do I know? My wife is one and I pretty much am a sounding board for the affair of the quarter going on in the district. Just recently she had to put her foot down to a very inappropriate EA (maybe PA) that had crossed lines into the work place.

She would never admit it but she is guilty of EA's with her female co workers. I suspect she would have had her own PA and was on that road until I began to go on "Red Alert".

The "Mom knows" thing is quite telling and a serious "Red Flag". Do not rug sweep this because something is up. Do not confront but you need to go stealth and search things out. Please do not tell us all how you cannot breach her trust. She has already done that to you.

You need to look up the 180 and implement it immediately. It will keep you sane during this difficult period.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

mscotthall said:


> My wife (married for 9 years, together for 11) and I have been going through some problems recently and I fear that they may soon spiral out of control. Within the past 2 months or so, it seems as if we have gradually grown apart.


A sudden, abrupt shift in the winds of the relationship means a new man has arrived upon the scene.



mscotthall said:


> About a month to 6 weeks ago, we finally discussed it and she acknowledges that there are some problems, but she thinks that my expectations of marriage are just too high.


Deflection from her.



mscotthall said:


> Around that time, I told her that I need her to be more affectionate and attentive to me and I said that because those things are important to me, they should be to her as well. She agreed, but since then we have had some real communication and closeness issues.


Well, that's kind of like telling the old sarges that you demand more respect because you're the guy wearing the yellow bar on your collar. It's not going to happen until certain skills and proficiencies are demonstrated. Your failure to detect the presence of a sexual interloper who has riveted your wife's attention means you are not in tune with her and you are not her soulmate. You are an imposter. This is confirmed by your failure to neutralize or otherwise counter the interloper. She sees you as clueless and getting what you deserve.



mscotthall said:


> A few things about us:
> - We have been married for 9 years
> - We have two great daughters (8 and 4) that we are both very committed to
> - We work at the same place, although not necessarily together. (we are both High School teachers)


Female teachers are said to be the most likely group of married women to have affairs, and that's saying a lot when you look at the nurses, who are said to be only #3. Your wife is following the crowd.



mscotthall said:


> A few things about our relationship: Our marriage has been, on the whole, a good one as far as I can tell for the last 9 years. However, over the course of the last month or so, things have gotten bad as we have begun to drift apart. We don’t necessarily have a history of incompatibility (no more than most couples).


The abrupt shift into a drifting apart status is the result of the new man and the body chemistry that is released by your wife in response to orgasm. Because affair sex (illicit sex in general but especially affair sex) is the best sex, the usual crack-like high they get, a mix of dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, testosterone, etc as a result of climaxing with a new guy is even higher than usual. This is accompanied by bonding chemistry, oxytocin, which acts during the build-up anticipation (a huge part of affair sex)with touching and cuddling, vasopressin, endorphins, etc that cause your wife to quickly de-link and drift away from you as the chemicals induce your wife to transfer her affection to the new sex partner. I won't even get into the mood elevating chemicals that she absorbs vaginally and sublingually from semen; like oxytocin again, estrone, yet more of the anti-depressant serotonin, and melatonin. She gets this because affair sex is conducted without the use of rubbers. In fact, mood elevation is the reason why, even though the women involved probably have no cognizance of this fact.



mscotthall said:


> Not to sound like the whole reason for staying together is our kids, but I can't imagine putting them through the hardships of a divorce, custody battles and having to be shuttled between parents. I still love my wife very, very much and I believe she does as well. I want to save our marriage and not throw away all we have built together and our futures. My wife, has told me in the last couple of weeks that she feels like there is something wrong with her, in her mind, as she is (as she described it) apathetic and unhappy.


She knows exactly what is wrong with herself. She is an addict and you need to realize that she is an addict and she will put her sex induced chemical addiction first in her life, ahead of you and even ahead of the well being of her children. You need to read up on addict behavior and spend some time on the CWI forum.



mscotthall said:


> She believes that she might have some depression issues and I understand that.


She's depressed because she's an adulteress. Something she never thought she would be. And to a degree her depression is the usual low to be expected after the ultra high of affair sex. She associates her AP with the high times and you, Mr Downer, with the post-coital low times. And the cure for those "low times" with you is more sex with the new BF.

She will soon realize, if she hasn't already, that she is not really an adulteress. You actually forced her into adultery by not really being the soul mate she thought you were. You forced her into "settling" for you instead of waiting for her real soulmate, the affair partner. This is another element of sex with new guy(s): rewriting the marriage. Her rationalization hamster will run in its cage 24/7 ginning up justifications for her outrageous behavior.



mscotthall said:


> I told her she needs to get help for these problems and she says she will, just waiting until it is more convenient (like during a school break). We talked a bit about marriage counseling, but agreed that maybe she needs to focus on her own issues first
> 
> 
> mscotthall said:
> ...


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> The second thing that struck me is the linguistics of her text with her brother. She didn't say, "Mom knows about it?" She said mom knows "about me." This means she's not hiding something she is DOING necessarily (although this may be present) but is hiding something about herself - something she believes is part of "how she's made." My first thought is that she has come to suspect she is bi or lesbian if mom really "guessed" it, but it could also be a disease or an addiction.


Given the fact of sexual fluidity in women, this is always a possibility. If it's the case, Scott needs to carry on as if it's a guy he's competing with, which the odds are is in fact the case, despite the wording. Whatever it is, she's guilty and ashamed.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Well it didn't take long for the cheating paranoia to surface. The fact is that what you see as a "sudden shift" may not be so sudden to her. How many times have we seen a man here that openly admits his wife tried to communicate that she was unhappy but he blew it off, figuring it would pass? Then when she wants a divorce he's shocked and blindsided? And we all know there couldn't be anything else going on so she must be cheating. FYI, I used to be a high school teacher too and I didn't know of anyone that was cheating. That's TAM paranoia talking.
I'll throw this out there: have you historically been a safe place for her to come to with issues? If not that's something to consider. If so you must approach her again and tell her that whatever it is you're there for her and she must let you in; do this after a nice dinner and bath when you're snuggling together; that's a place where women feel safe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'll throw this out there: have you historically been a safe place for her to come to with issues? If not that's something to consider. If so you must approach her again and tell her that whatever it is you're there for her and she must let you in; do this after a nice dinner and bath when you're snuggling together; that's a place where women feel safe.


Yes, that will really work. Even better, try this, it works every time:


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> Yes, that will really work. Even better, try this, it works every time:



Yeah, you're right. Just tell your wife to f$ck off and file for divorce, and make sure you spy on everything; that's the answer to everything. Let me know how that works.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Occam's Razor. Or as Ptolemy put it:"We consider it a good principle to explain the phenomena by the simplest hypothesis possible."

Eliminate the most obvious possibility, then move on from there. OP knows, despite his protestations otherwise, that his gut is telling him what's up. He already has a prime suspect. And his WW has admitted being in "something like the 7 year itch." The only reasons she said "something like" is that they've been married 9 years. Otherwise, it's the itch. A confession to what he already knows in his heart. 

Hey, I could be wrong. But, until this possibility is laid to rest, there is no going forward.


----------



## silentghost (Jan 28, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Well it didn't take long for the cheating paranoia to surface. The fact is that what you see as a "sudden shift" may not be so sudden to her. How many times have we seen a man here that openly admits his wife tried to communicate that she was unhappy but he blew it off, figuring it would pass? Then when she wants a divorce he's shocked and blindsided? And we all know there couldn't be anything else going on so she must be cheating. FYI, I used to be a high school teacher too and I didn't know of anyone that was cheating. That's TAM paranoia talking.
> I'll throw this out there: have you historically been a safe place for her to come to with issues? If not that's something to consider. If so you must approach her again and tell her that whatever it is you're there for her and she must let you in; do this after a nice dinner and bath when you're snuggling together; that's a place where women feel safe.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



^^^ You have a good point.


----------



## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Yeah, you're right. Just tell your wife to f$ck off and file for divorce, and make sure you spy on everything; that's the answer to everything. Let me know how that works.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OP:

I agree with LTS here. I don't think there is convincing evidence, at this point, that she is cheating, though it obviously can't be ruled out. I like some of the advice you've been given here, in particular:

a. Consider going to her brother and telling him you're concerned about your wife. He might open up to you or otherwise give indication of the what the secrets are. I believe you said you have a good relationship with him.

b. You might want to discuss "boundaries" with her. IMO it is just not a good idea to tolerate a spouse having close, opposite sex friendships. You have a right to be uncomfortable with that, and you should be. you might try to frame it in a 'respect' context rather than a cheating context. If she objects I think you should consider making some of your own female friends, so that the mesage to her is that she can be replaced, without you having to state it explicitly.

c. I do think you have a right to be concerned whether - OR NOT - she is cheating. you have reason to be suspicious...thus you have reason to 'spy' by whatever method makes the most sense. A reasonable, non-cheating spouse will not hold it against their partner if they find out they are gathering intel on them, as long as you can explain why you were concerned. Just don't worry too much that she's cheating until you have more solid evidence. 

d. If you do find out she is cheating, well, can't put it any better than LTS does above -- "...then just tell your wife to f$ck off and file for divorce." that's right....depression is no more an excuse for cheating than it is for serial killing. Given her general behavior I think every bit of love you offer her after making such a discovery will be a very bad investment.


----------



## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

Machiavelli's analysis is a tour de force of what looks like a textbook case of an affair.

The OP needs to very quietly conduct intelligence-gathering and stop with the touchy-feely relationship talk, which only makes things worse. Once he gets the information, he should go to the CWI forum for further advice.


----------



## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Yeah, you're right. Just tell your wife to f$ck off and file for divorce, and make sure you spy on everything; that's the answer to everything. Let me know how that works.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Something is amiss in the guy's marriage. At this point the poor guy is frustrated because he doesn't know what it is. He tries to talk to her, and she wants none of that, so that's out. 

So what does he do? Right now he's floundering, so he has to start narrowing the possibilities. One of those is that she's cheating. All of the signs are there, so why not look at the cell phone records, the texts, the emails, etc? It's easy to do and if his intelligence-gathering comes up empty then he can cross cheating off the list and take the next steps in getting his marriage on track.


----------



## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Well it didn't take long for the cheating paranoia to surface. The fact is that what you see as a "sudden shift" may not be so sudden to her. * How many times have we seen a man here that openly admits his wife tried to communicate that she was unhappy but he blew it off, figuring it would pass? Then when she wants a divorce he's shocked and blindsided? * And we all know there couldn't be anything else going on so she must be cheating. FYI, I used to be a high school teacher too and I didn't know of anyone that was cheating. That's TAM paranoia talking.
> *I'll throw this out there: have you historically been a safe place for her to come to with issues? If not that's something to consider. If so you must approach her again and tell her that whatever it is you're there for her and she must let you in; do this after a nice dinner and bath when you're snuggling together; that's a place where women feel safe.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's been trying to communicate with her about her issues. She told him she doesn't want to talk about it. That's why he's here. He's the one trying to talk, she's the one shutting him out.

If that doesn't translate to "there's another guy in the picture" then I don't know what does.


----------

