# 20 years later....



## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Hello. New here (first post actually). I have been married for over 19 years (20 in a few months). We are planning a weeklong getaway to Costa Rica in early December. 

We, like a lot of married couples I assume, have experienced a decline in our sex life over the years. In all honesty, it has always been a struggle. I like sex. A lot. I actually waited till I was married (to much to explain now) and now, well, I wonder if I made a mistake? Waiting that is. 

I co-worker once described my marriage like I was married to a business partner (running kids around, coordinating schedules, etc..) 

The core of my struggle is that my wife does not seem to like sex. We go a week, then two, then a month, then two months, no sex. Then, it's 1x a week for a month. Then its back to 2-3xs in a 3 month period. No rhyme or reason. Life is complicated. We both work, have active kids, etc....I get all of that. 

Having accepted the frequency will be random...I am at a point where I can't accept the quality. 

In short, I need an active willing partner. Not one that lays there motionless, soundless, does NOTHING. And I mean NOTHING. Then it is over. 

I'm here really because I have tried all the stuff you can imagine. I am looking for someone with any real world experiences that may not be orthodox but worked. 

Help?

MarriednAtlanta


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

What did she say when you said that to her?

:grin2:


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Said what?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

We call them "roommate" but "business partner" works too.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Said what?


That you need better quality in the bedroom. 

It doesn't sound like she particularly enjoys the experience based on your description.

Have you asked her why?

Notice all of my questions are geared not towards your displeasure, but how you have communicated such.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Nothing really. A few comments that it will get better once the kids get older (that is at least 13 years away), that is normal for couples with kids to experience this, etc....and a just a general unwillingness to do or try anything other than what we are doing. At this point, even a with a trip to Costa Rica coming up, I am so fed up with her level of participation in this process. 

I stopped asking for sex, expecting sex, even hinting around sex with her about a month a go. We had a shower quickie a week or two ago. I am at a point where I would rather go without then have the same thing over and over and over again. 

I will not participate unless it changes (the routine) that is. Am I being too harsh? I'm here because I am really open to almost anything.


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## Altair (Sep 16, 2016)

Well it won't get better by itself when the kids are older in 13 years that's for damn sure.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

So basically you are going to stop initiating, in hopes that she will "get it", without actually telling her you will stop initiating? Does that make sense to you? Or do you just want to nurture your resentment?

Passive-aggressive.

Have you ever just tried something adventurous in the bedroom, without asking for permission before hand?



Marriednatlanta said:


> Nothing really. A few comments that it will get better once the kids get older (that is at least 13 years away), that is normal for couples with kids to experience this, etc....and a just a general unwillingness to do or try anything other than what we are doing. At this point, even a with a trip to Costa Rica coming up, I am so fed up with her level of participation in this process.
> 
> I stopped asking for sex, expecting sex, even hinting around sex with her about a month a go. We had a shower quickie a week or two ago. I am at a point where I would rather go without then have the same thing over and over and over again.
> 
> I will not participate unless it changes (the routine) that is. Am I being too harsh? I'm here because I am really open to almost anything.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Nothing really. A few comments that it will get better once the kids get older (that is at least 13 years away), that is normal for couples with kids to experience this, etc....and a just a general unwillingness to do or try anything other than what we are doing. At this point, even a with a trip to Costa Rica coming up, I am so fed up with her level of participation in this process.
> 
> I stopped asking for sex, expecting sex, even hinting around sex with her about a month a go. We had a shower quickie a week or two ago. I am at a point where I would rather go without then have the same thing over and over and over again.
> 
> I will not participate unless it changes (the routine) that is. Am I being too harsh? I'm here because I am really open to almost anything.


You're not being too harsh. I would go so far as to recommend that the moment you realize you're getting starfish sex you should simply get up and say 'this isn't working for me' and walk out of the bedroom. You need to disrupt and talking will never be sufficient to accomplish that. Stay out late after work a few times. Cancel the Costa Rica trip (or at least did-invite her).

Edited to add, the point of disrupting is to make sure she knows it's happening and why. If you keep it a secret and expect some kind of magical result then you're being passive aggressive as Farside said above.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Do not wait for the 13 years.

The kids come back and bring others with them.

Good luck to you.

I tried talking to my wife to get her to be more than just pity sex. sometimes it is better, but not always.

also tried to get her to allow oral and she threw a fit. that is not happening. 

So do not have many answers, but do not wait for the kids to be gone. had several come back over the years.

maybe try seeing a sex counselor?


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I wonder whether you should cancel the trip until which time, if ever, you figure this out with her. I have the same type of unfulfilling business partner type marriage you have and I thought that a nice trip to Europe for our 25th would at least go toward solving the problem. Nope. In fact we had less sex than we usually have (none the whole trip). I came back home so pissed I can't even tell you.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> So basically you are going to stop initiating, in hopes that she will "get it", without actually telling her you will stop initiating? Does that make sense to you? Or do you just want to nurture your resentment?
> 
> Passive-aggressive.
> 
> Have you ever just tried something adventurous in the bedroom, without asking for permission before hand?


Good points. I don't know what I'm doing. Which I is why I am here. Ugh. The shower was a result of not asking for it the previous night. So that kinda worked. I guess. By nature I am not passive aggressive but I am definitely resentful. She knows this is important to me (having some good sex) and still she can bring herself to try or do anything. EVER.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

I'll save you the $200/hour therapist fee. Schedule times for sex. That works for busy people. During that time go vanilla or as wild as you want but make sure you have it scheduled on your busy calendars. That's what MC's and sex therapists tell busy married couples. Now, if she doesn't actually want sex then read the Married Man's Sex Life Primer. It's a really good book and you'll probably spot the reason why she doesn't want it as you're reading.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Good points. I don't know what I'm doing. Which I is why I am here. Ugh. The shower was a result of not asking for it the previous night. So that kinda worked. I guess. By nature I am not passive aggressive but I am definitely resentful. She knows this is important to me (having some good sex) and still she can bring herself to try or do anything. EVER.


Have you actually asked your wife if she enjoys sex? 

Have you asked her what she fantasizes about?

Have you had any frank communication at all regarding sex?

What was her response when you indicated disappointment in your sex life?
@MEM2020


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Not cancelling the Costa trip. Oddly enough, even the sex does not resolve itself...the trip will be great. Activities, food, drinking, etc...hard to really explain but it is not being cancelled.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Have you actually asked your wife if she enjoys sex?
> 
> Have you asked her what she fantasizes about?
> 
> ...


I have tried all of those things over the years and it never ends well. Just a look of incredible disappointment (she knows this is an issue) than I feel bad for even asking and resolve (I'll just accept this as normal).


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## MapMan (Dec 11, 2015)

Read this: It will be the best $1.99 you ever spent and will explain why your wife is not attracted to you anymore. Your marriage and sex life is totally within rescue. It worked for me and thousands of other men. llhttps://www.amazon.com/Married-Man-Life-Primer-2011-ebook/dp/B004W0IRQ8/ref=sr_1_1_twi_kin_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1474485979&sr=8-1&keywords=married+man+sex+life+primer, This is not an ad for the book, I don't have any connection to it. I just wish it was standard reading for every man who decides to marry. Why not download and read it on your vacation?


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

LucasJackson said:


> I'll save you the $200/hour therapist fee. Schedule times for sex. That works for busy people. During that time go vanilla or as wild as you want but make sure you have it scheduled on your busy calendars. That's what MC's and sex therapists tell busy married couples. Now, if she doesn't actually want sex then read the Married Man's Sex Life Primer. It's a really good book and you'll probably spot the reason why she doesn't want it as you're reading.


Well....in fact, our ideal time is around lunch. She is lucky enough to work from home, I work close by. PMs are off the table always, AMs same, so that leaves Lunch. And there is always a miriad of excuses why it is not a "good time" etc. but occasionally she relents and we have the same thing we have every time with a few minor complaints along the way. It is not pretty but it happens. 

Have not read that book - read Red Hot Monogamy. I have suggested a regular date nite it was rejected as to rigid. 1000 reasons why it won't work for us etc...that is why the ball is in her court. So to speak.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I have tried all of those things over the years and it never ends well. Just a look of incredible disappointment (she knows this is an issue) than I feel bad for even asking and resolve (I'll just accept this as normal).


It would be interesting for you to share details of why you waited until after marriage? Could she have religious hangups? Putting you off until the "kids are older" because she is stressed or embarrassed about the topic? If you are religious, would your priest/minister or whatever help her see that sex is a normal part of marriage? Just some thoughts.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> It would be interesting for you to share details of why you waited until after marriage? Could she have religious hangups? Putting you off until the "kids are older" because she is stressed or embarrassed about the topic? If you are religious, would your priest/minister or whatever help her see that sex is a normal part of marriage? Just some thoughts.


I grew up in a ultra conservative environment, then religion kicked in, then my friend(s) got their GFs pregnant, then I dated around but it never got serious enough to get that point then...we well it just happened (me waiting). I waited, she did not. And I don't resent that about her all.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I grew up in a ultra conservative environment, then religion kicked in, then my friend(s) got their GFs pregnant, then I dated around but it never got serious enough to get that point then...we well it just happened (me waiting). I waited, she did not. And I don't resent that about her all.


Why did you wait WITH HER? Presumably you dated before marriage?


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Why did you wait WITH HER? Presumably you dated before marriage?


That is an excellent excellent question. Once I told her I was still a V....she said let's wait. I said ok. We met, dated, got engaged and married in 12m. We were older soo it's not like I was 20. 

That was a good question BTW. One I have not really thought about...glad I posted this question. Hope I am doing this right.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> That is an excellent excellent question. Once I told her I was still a V....she said let's wait. I said ok. We met, dated, got engaged and married in 12m. *We were older* soo it's not like I was 20.
> 
> That was a good question BTW. One I have not really thought about...glad I posted this question. Hope I am doing this right.


It is worth thinking about. You are not going to like what I am going to say next. But the reason she may have wanted to wait was that she was not that into you except as husband material and either provider or co-provider and sperm delivery. Could she maintain her standard of living if you decided to leave?


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Not cancelling the Costa trip. Oddly enough, even the sex does not resolve itself...the trip will be great. Activities, food, drinking, etc...hard to really explain but it is not being cancelled.


Ok but do so at your own risk. I think you're setting yourself up for a real disappointment and waste of money. I thought the trip to Europe was a "can't miss" as you do and I was really wrong. Even if the activities, food and drink are great, not having sex will make it a disaster.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> Ok but do so at your own risk. I think you're setting yourself up for a real disappointment and waste of money. I thought the trip to Europe was a "can't miss" as you do and I was really wrong. Even if the activities, food and drink are great, not having sex will make it a disaster.


Well..it's a week away, no kids, all inclusive, other cool couples (I hope), I/we can do whatever I want all day. I have lived with a crappy sex life for 19 years...no way a week in Costa Rica is going to be bad. They invented Zip Lining. ::grin2::grin2:


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

I think you're being too accommodating. Let's be honest, she has withdrawn from your marriage. You have to tell her that you are prepared to reciprocate that withdrawal of marriage. If she doesn't have time for you, she needs to make time. And cancelling the Costa trip would deliver that point well if she is looking forward to it... I know you're probably thinking that Costa is your first chance in years for good sex, but for what? You should be having good sex every week (at least) if you are happily married. The bottom line is she has some explaining to do. You need to literally sit her down and tell her that a sexless marriage is not going to fly anymore (10x/year or less is sexless). Your partner needs to be the #1 priority. She needs to be made aware of this. Tell her sexual fulfillment is the #1 expectation of marriage by men. So, you are not asking for something unusual. Tell her that if she continues to not participate in the marriage, you will be forced to move on. I told my wife that she had broken our wedding vows. If she won't explain herself, find a marriage counselor that does sex therapy. Then tell your wife that she can start talking, come to the appointment, or expect divorce papers. Her choice. But, you need to be ready to follow through.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> It is worth thinking about. You are not going to like what I am going to say next. But the reason she may have wanted to wait was that she was not that into you except as husband material and either provider or co-provider and sperm delivery. Could she maintain her standard of living if you decided to leave?


More good points but I don't think they apply. And the last one we learned did NOT apply. Yeah she would probably be ok -- we would both have to downsize. She has some f'ed up history in past with sex -- details somewhat vague and it was nothing taboo but there was some emotional trauma. Happened in HS. I think.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Do you know what you are doing in the bedroom? You were a virgin when you married and your wife isn't too enthusiastic. Have you educated yourself on sex (watching porn doesn't count)?

There are many books on the subject with illustrations of best positions for her and for him. Go to Amazon and read reviews on some. You can start with the Kama Sutra to get an idea of what is considered helpful by the reviewers.

Buy an illustrated book, peruse it, pick out 3 positions and tell your wife to pick one and be ready to try it out for lunch the next day. No asking, no whining. Just a statement of fact.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> Ok but do so at your own risk. I think you're setting yourself up for a real disappointment and waste of money. I thought the trip to Europe was a "can't miss" as you do and I was really wrong. Even if the activities, food and drink are great, not having sex will make it a disaster.


I completely agree. We went on a "Family Friendly" cruise for a week. "Family Friendly" means they can watch the kids so the parents can have some quality alone time. You still have lots of time as a family, it's just not all the time. I got us a private suite with private balcony! Guess what happened? My wife made our daughter terrified to be left with her brother at the kid zone. So, our daughter tagged along nearly the whole time. My wife was desperate to make sure we were never alone. Now, obviously your kids won't be there. But, do not assume for a second that all your problems will melt away in Costa.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

wantshelp said:


> I think you're being too accommodating. Let's be honest, she has withdrawn from your marriage. You have to tell her that you are prepared to reciprocate that withdrawal of marriage. If she doesn't have time for you, she needs to make time. And cancelling the Costa trip would deliver that point well if she is looking forward to it... I know you're probably thinking that Costa is your first chance in years for good sex, but for what? You should be having good sex every week (at least) if you are happily married. The bottom line is she has some explaining to do. You need to literally sit her down and tell her that a sexless marriage is not going to fly anymore (10x/year or less is sexless). Your partner needs to be the #1 priority. She needs to be made aware of this. Tell her sexual fulfillment is the #1 expectation of marriage by men. So, you are not asking for something unusual. Tell her that if she continues to not participate in the marriage, you will be forced to move on. I told my wife that she had broken our wedding vows. If she won't explain herself, find a marriage counselor that does sex therapy. Then tell your wife that she can start talking, come to the appointment, or expect divorce papers. Her choice. But, you need to be ready to follow through.


What did your wife say? Do? What was her response? Costa is a reward for both of us for making it 20+ years. Marriage is hard enough in general. Fortunately neither of us have strayed. Wife is def not going to a counselor. I mentioned that too a few months ago in a fit of frustration.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> Do you know what you are doing in the bedroom? You were a virgin when you married and your wife isn't too enthusiastic. Have you educated yourself on sex (watching porn doesn't count)?
> 
> There are many books on the subject with illustrations of best positions for her and for him. Go to Amazon and read reviews on some. You can start with the Kama Sutra to get an idea of what is considered helpful by the reviewers.
> 
> Buy an illustrated book, peruse it, pick out 3 positions and tell your wife to pick one and be ready to try it out for lunch the next day. No asking, no whining. Just a statement of fact.



More good ideas (that I have tried) to no avail. I think I know what I am doing but I guess I don't really know. You are right -- porn is not the answer. I could dust a book I bought called Kama something. I am pretty sure I will get the same answer I usually get..."I am not comfortable with that (insert position)". 

It's usually missionary or whatever they call laying your stomach. Reverse missionary?


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Marriednatlanta said:


> What did your wife say? Do? What was her response? Costa is a reward for both of us for making it 20+ years. Marriage is hard enough in general. Fortunately neither of us have strayed.


She was furious. She refused to accept that rejecting my affection was breaking a vow. Then she acknowledged that she was a "cold fish" and the she was depressed. So, I found the BEST female sex therapist in the city and scheduled the appointment and told her "we're going". She did not resist. I think it lends credibility for the therapist to be the same gender as the spouse that resists. Fast forward to today -- 2 years and we are still going to therapy once a week. I have learned a lot. My wife was taught in Catholic school and by her parents that boys only care about one thing --sex. I can't help but think that parents demonize horny teenage boys when talking to their daughters by saying these things and my wife is proof of the long lasting damage you can do. She also learned that sex is only for bad/dirty/immoral women. Our therapist thought at one point that she'd been sexually assaulted. That's how powerful her negative perceptions of men were. Her parent's relationship was devoid of displays of affection and she was just participating in marriage the way she understood it. For my part, I was FAR too patient and failed to tell her how much I hated our life. We've been married 15 years and I regret not making my expectations clear after 5 years, but it's never too late. 



Marriednatlanta said:


> Marriage is hard enough in general. Fortunately neither of us have strayed.


I have not strayed although I certainly feel justified. It's just morally unacceptable to me to cheat. 



Marriednatlanta said:


> Wife is def not going to a counselor. I mentioned that too a few months ago in a fit of frustration.


If she can't communicate why she is doing this, you have to get her to a therapist to understand what she is really thinking. Otherwise, you're living a lie. She is concealing her truth for some reason, and as her husband, you have a right to know. IMHO.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Marriednatlanta said:


> What did your wife say? Do? What was her response? Costa is a reward for both of us for making it 20+ years. Marriage is hard enough in general. Fortunately neither of us have strayed. Wife is def not going to a counselor. I mentioned that too a few months ago in a fit of frustration.


Oh, this is an anniversary vacation? That's even worse. Way worse. So now you're specifically rewarding her for being a bad wife by taking her to Costa Rica.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Oh, this is an anniversary vacation? That's even worse. Way worse. So now you're specifically rewarding her for being a bad wife by taking her to Costa Rica.



Yes. Another good point.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

wantshelp said:


> She was furious. She refused to accept that rejecting my affection was breaking a vow. Then she acknowledged that she was a "cold fish" and the she was depressed. So, I found the BEST female sex therapist in the city and scheduled the appointment and told her "we're going". She did not resist. I think it lends credibility for the therapist to be the same gender as the spouse that resists. Fast forward to today -- 2 years and we are still going to therapy once a week. I have learned a lot. My wife was taught in Catholic school and by her parents that boys only care about one thing --sex. I can't help but think that parents demonize horny teenage boys when talking to their daughters by saying these things and my wife is proof of the long lasting damage you can do. She also learned that sex is only for bad/dirty/immoral women. Our therapist thought at one point that she'd been sexually assaulted. That's how powerful her negative perceptions of men were. Her parent's relationship was devoid of displays of affection and she was just participating in marriage the way she understood it. For my part, I was FAR too patient and failed to tell her how much I hated our life. We've been married 15 years and I regret not making my expectations clear after 5 years, but it's never too late.
> 
> I have not strayed although I certainly feel justified. It's just morally unacceptable to me to cheat.
> 
> If she can't communicate why she is doing this, you have to get her to a therapist to understand what she is really thinking. Otherwise, you're living a lie. She is concealing her truth for some reason, and as her husband, you have a right to know. IMHO.


I really appreciate all your candid fastback. There is definitely something deeper going on that I can't even begin to understand.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> More good ideas (that I have tried) to no avail. I think I know what I am doing but I guess I don't really know. You are right -- porn is not the answer. I could dust a book I bought called Kama something. I am pretty sure I will get the same answer I usually get..."I am not comfortable with that (insert position)".
> 
> It's usually missionary or whatever they call laying your stomach. Reverse missionary?


Basic 1st question. 

Does she orgasm? 

Are you sure?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Oh, this is an anniversary vacation? That's even worse. Way worse. So now you're specifically rewarding her for being a bad wife by taking her to Costa Rica.


It's a little late to cancel the trip.

But, DO NOT EXPECT GREAT SEX.

You'll most certainly be disappointed.

And even if you had great sex, all that would mean is that great sex is available to you only in Costa Rica. What would you do then? Spend alternate weekends in Costa Rica?

Focus on the zip-lining.

Do not let your happiness with the trip be controlled by your wife.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

What is your history with sex as a couple? How was it at first? How long until it went bad?

What is her sexual history prior to you?

Does she have any trauma history, that you know of, such as child sex abuse or rape as a teen/adult? Physically or emotionally abusive parents? Chemical abusing family members?


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Basic 1st question.
> 
> Does she orgasm?
> 
> Are you sure?


This is VERY important
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Says she "is" but I know she is not. 50% of the time she just "throws in the towel" and mumbles something about not being able to,,,from there it's my turn and then it's over.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

It's a little late to cancel the trip. But, DO NOT EXPECT GREAT SEX. You'll most certainly be disappointed. And even if you had great sex, all that would mean is that great sex is available to you only in Costa Rica. What would you do then? Spend alternate weekends in Costa Rica? Focus on the zip-lining. Do not let your happiness with the trip be controlled by your wife.


That's the plan. Fun relax meet other couples enjoy the week. Sex is not the priority. She will notice.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Stated ok. Got worse and worse and then disovled to today.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Says she "is" but I know she is not. 50% of the time she just "throws in the towel" and mumbles something about not being able to,,,from there it's my turn and then it's over.


How about the other 50% of the time?

Only about 25% of women orgasm from intercourse.

Do you do anything else?

Will she let you?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Says she "is" but I know she is not. 50% of the time she just "throws in the towel" and mumbles something about not being able to,,,from there it's my turn and then it's over.




Do you use toys? I recommend getting a hitachi magic wand. Then there will be no doubt. She won't want you to use it. Insist, in a playful dominant way.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Stated ok. Got worse and worse and then disovled to today.


Orgasms?


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Yes. We have a variety of toys. Same results.


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## Seppuku (Sep 22, 2010)

Bro. Your wife is either not interested in sex, or not interested in sex with you.

Everyone has their issues, but the fact that she is not willing to admit to a problem, won't talk about it, won't go to counseling - THAT'S the deal-breaker.

Honestly, I wonder what she'd say if you told her you're going to get sex from somewhere else. I'm not advocating that you do that, but I'm betting she would be furious.

You need to get her to open up or you need to leave. I know it is always complicated, especially when there are children, but she might be more open to it if she really believes that you would leave.

I'm in the same boat as you, so that is pretty much my mindset right now.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I think some women build resentments and start holding their orgasms and sexual pleasure hostage. I had one friend that described it like - he would keep at me till I gave in but I would never give him the satisfaction of me enjoying it. 

That couple now has a great sex lifr, they are the envy of our group of friends. But that was her attitude with a young child and a husband that wasn't so supportive or helpful. 

Having younger kids can be really difficult because by bed time a mother can give as much as she has to give and has been touched and hung on and had her attention demanded through the day. Then she gets to bed and here's husband wanting attention next. 

Having said all that I've also been married 20 years and am a woman who does enjoy sex.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The odds of fixing this after almost twenty years - when it was never good to begin with - are very low.

The smart move at this point is to ask yourself how good the rest of the marriage is. Sounds like it is mechanically sound - you are both responsible - good with the kids. But if that's all there is to it, then make a financial plan that leaves you both in a good spot when the youngest leaves for college. With the understanding being the marriage will end at that point. 

This shouldn't be framed as a threat. Just an acceptance that you are almost entirely coparents and once that phase ends you are almost entirely nothing. 





farsidejunky said:


> Have you actually asked your wife if she enjoys sex?
> 
> Have you asked her what she fantasizes about?
> 
> ...


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Seppuku said:


> Bro. Your wife is either not interested in sex, or not interested in sex with you.
> 
> Everyone has their issues, but the fact that she is not willing to admit to a problem, won't talk about it, won't go to counseling - THAT'S the deal-breaker.
> 
> ...


Not ready to leave. Have wondered about a "hall pass". I can't rule it out. She has volunteered some day....(when she is gone) I will have a "sex kitten". I told her that the odds were she would outlast me.


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## Cowboy2 (Nov 12, 2013)

If this is fixable it's with action, not words & discussions.

If the marriage is good except for sex read MMSL as others have suggested. Work the plan. If it doesn't work with her you'll be in a good place for other women who enjoy sex WITH YOU. It's an eye opening book and will make you see things in a new light.

Women have sex with men they are attracted to. Look in the mirror and be honest. Not just about how you look but are you fit, a great dad, have interesting things going on in your life, kicking ass at work, etc. 

Have fun on your trip, you've got the right mindset.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> The odds of fixing this after almost twenty years - when it was never good to begin with - are very low.
> 
> The smart move at this point is to ask yourself how good the rest of the marriage is. Sounds like it is mechanically sound - you are both responsible - good with the kids. But if that's all there is to it, then make a financial plan that leaves you both in a good spot when the youngest leaves for college. With the understanding being the marriage will end at that point.
> 
> This shouldn't be framed as a threat. Just an acceptance that you are almost entirely coparents and once that phase ends you are almost entirely nothing.


Yup. The marriage is fine in everyday life (finances, kids, home, etc). Just this gaping whole in the bedroom. Don't see it ending in divorce.


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## Altair (Sep 16, 2016)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Just this gaping whole in the bedroom.


The way you put that struck me as amusing for some reason.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MissScarlett said:


> I think some women build resentments and start holding their orgasms and sexual pleasure hostage. I had one friend that described it like - he would keep at me till I gave in but I would never give him the satisfaction of me enjoying it.
> 
> That couple now has a great sex lifr, they are the envy of our group of friends. But that was her attitude with a young child and a husband that wasn't so supportive or helpful.
> 
> ...


Interesting feedback. Don't think it's resentment. And TRUST ME - I am in the HALL OF FAME of Husbands. That I know. From AM to PM the needs of the kids, house, her, etc..are the priority. I don't watch TV, play Golf, go out and watch college football, etc... I am present in our home life. Laundry, dog, dishes, dinner, there is NOTHING I dont' do or wont' do. Anyway, I have allowed for the "it's been a long day" soo I don't even ask and AM is kinda the same. Leaving us lunch. She is not willing to fight for lunch. How hard would it be to send me a SMS inviting me home with a teaser. Be in bed,be getting in the mood, flirt with me, say something erotic...sorry I am just venting now.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> How about the other 50% of the time?
> 
> Only about 25% of women orgasm from intercourse.
> 
> ...


50% no (gives up/can't)
40% yes (but based on what I experience and what I need to enter her - I am saying it's fake yes)
10% maybe.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Altair said:


> The way you put that struck me as amusing for some reason.


Yeah, not the best word choice.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Cowboy2 said:


> If this is fixable it's with action, not words & discussions.
> 
> If the marriage is good except for sex read MMSL as others have suggested. Work the plan. If it doesn't work with her you'll be in a good place for other women who enjoy sex WITH YOU. It's an eye opening book and will make you see things in a new light.
> 
> ...


Good advice. Will download on my iPad next week while I am travelling.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You could try destabilizing.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> You could try destabilizing.


I am assuming that is causing some friction or something? Creating an environment that makes her think I am leaving or looking or planning to leave...??


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Nope. Stop all of the things you specifically do for her. No listening, no massages, no extras. Simply do the things you are responsible for and nothing more.

She will ultimately complain about it if you are the super husband you claim to be. When she does, simply say:

"If you want more from me, you can start by doing more for me."


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Nope. Stop all of the things you specifically do for her. No listening, no massages, no extras. Simply do the things you are responsible for and nothing more.
> 
> She will ultimately complain about it if you are the super husband you claim to be. When she does, simply say:
> 
> "If you want more from me, you can start by doing more for me."



Hmmm. Yes I am SUPER HUSBAND lol....but that approach sounds vindictive and I really don't think I could pull that off. Not in my DNA. What I am doing...and I think she is noticing, is not asking for it, expecting it, etc...just grinding away at life. Today for example is a perfect day for LUNCH. But, if I go home to each (which I usually do) and she remotely suggests it, I am letting her lead. I am DONE TIRED etc of doing all the work.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

If I did the math right, you think she may orgasm about 10% of the time you have sex. For me, that would be a HUGE problem. Over a period of time, I could imagine I'd sexually shut down. I'm not getting much out of it, so why do it other than as a chore I perform for the sake of the marriage?

I suspect she is either not sexually attracted to you or she has shut down to avoid sexual frustration.

I think you should seriously discuss sex therapy. As in, not really a discussion, you're both going and that's that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Atlanta,

I keep waiting for you to actually say something meaningful about your wife. Other than - she doesn't like sex with you. 

This stuff is very difficult. And unless you have some really smart mentors, it is easy to get lost in the maze. You seem kind of lost. Your focus is almost entirely on the mechanics of life - on WHAT is happening. Until you begin to understand WHY things are happening - you have very little hope of improvement. 






Marriednatlanta said:


> Interesting feedback. Don't think it's resentment. And TRUST ME - I am in the HALL OF FAME of Husbands. That I know. From AM to PM the needs of the kids, house, her, etc..are the priority. I don't watch TV, play Golf, go out and watch college football, etc... I am present in our home life. Laundry, dog, dishes, dinner, there is NOTHING I dont' do or wont' do. Anyway, I have allowed for the "it's been a long day" soo I don't even ask and AM is kinda the same. Leaving us lunch. She is not willing to fight for lunch. How hard would it be to send me a SMS inviting me home with a teaser. Be in bed,be getting in the mood, flirt with me, say something erotic...sorry I am just venting now.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Hmmm. Yes I am SUPER HUSBAND lol....but that approach sounds vindictive and I really don't think I could pull that off. Not in my DNA. What I am doing...and I think she is noticing, is not asking for it, expecting it, etc...just grinding away at life. Today for example is a perfect day for LUNCH. But, if I go home to each (which I usually do) and she remotely suggests it, I am letting her lead. I am DONE TIRED etc of doing all the work.


Vindictive is one way of looking at it. 

Another way to look at it is investing in her only the amount that will prevent you from building resentment.

Here is the thing, OP. At this point, you are dismissing everyone's suggestions.

You want your wife to change, but you sound unwilling to change anything to influence change.

That NEVER works. All that will happen is you complaining, and nothing changing. In order to influence change, you to must do things differently. 

Good luck.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> If I did the math right, you think she may orgasm about 10% of the time you have sex. For me, that would be a HUGE problem. Over a period of time, I could imagine I'd sexually shut down. I'm not getting much out of it, so why do it other than as a chore I perform for the sake of the marriage?
> 
> I suspect she is either not sexually attracted to you or she has shut down to avoid sexual frustration.
> 
> I think you should seriously discuss sex therapy. As in, not really a discussion, you're both going and that's that.


I'm a with you -- on the "shutdown" part. For what it is worth...I am in decent shape, maybe better shape than I have been in in awhile, take good care of myself, etc...soo I hope it's not an attraction thing. My thinking this that she knows it's an issue (our crappy sex life) is really only in it (having sex) to get it over with and back to her work day and satisfy me at some level. 

Sex therapy is on the table for sure, just need to tell/ask her, hopefully before Costa.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Now I get it. You're one of those guys who complains but isn't willing to do any of the things that work.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Vindictive is one way of looking at it.
> 
> Another way to look at it is investing in her only the amount that will prevent you from building resentment.
> 
> ...


Well I was looking for any and all ideas. Some ideas, yes, not trying. Others (reading a book someone mentioned, possibly sex therapy, asking some tough questions (again), I am definitely trying. I am doing something differently too - not asking for it or expediting it. Forcing the issue by having her suggest it, allowing me to say, "Sure, let's try this though XXXX" . I am not an expert but I have lived it for almost 19+years. And even after yesterday(reading all of the opinions) was really helpful, which is why I came here.


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## Altair (Sep 16, 2016)

She's not into the sex because you aren't satisfying her. 

She's probably resentful because you get off and she doesn't.

Lots of guys don't know the first thing about pleasing a woman, as long as they stick it in and out for 5-10 minutes and shoot their load they've done their job as far as they're concerned.

Then they wonder why wifey isn't into it anymore or goes looking elsewhere to get what hubby can't or won't provide.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Now I get it. You're one of those guys who complains but isn't willing to do any of the things that work.


100% not the case. I have tried and tried most of the things suggested -- karma book, 5LL, direct conversation, etc...now I landed here looking for ideas that I have not ever even considered. Generally, the feedback has helped.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Altair said:


> She's not into the sex because you aren't satisfying her.
> 
> She's probably resentful because you get off and she doesn't.
> 
> ...


I don't think this applies. I have asked, suggested alternatives, etc...this is not a one way ticket thing with me. I always make sure we try to meet her needs first even when she CANT release.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Atlanta,
> 
> I keep waiting for you to actually say something meaningful about your wife. Other than - she doesn't like sex with you.
> 
> This stuff is very difficult. And unless you have some really smart mentors, it is easy to get lost in the maze. You seem kind of lost. Your focus is almost entirely on the mechanics of life - on WHAT is happening. Until you begin to understand WHY things are happening - you have very little hope of improvement.


Good feedback and probably why we both need some therapy. After 19+ years I am sure any marriage needs a tuneup. Meaningful? Works hard, stays in shape, good mom, active, etc...as I said earlier -- it's not really anything other the bedroom. I have just reached a threshold of needing some alternative ideas. And, I have gotten some. So that's good.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Not ready to leave. Have wondered about a "hall pass". I can't rule it out. She has volunteered some day....(when she is gone) I will have a "sex kitten". I told her that the odds were she would outlast me.


At 57 in have found a real kitten is far more soothing. Unlike unresponsive spouses, pets always cheer me up, and the shift of attention from unresponsive spouses to pets is a lot more fun than several 180's...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Yup. The marriage is fine in everyday life (finances, kids, home, etc). Just this gaping whole in the bedroom. Don't see it ending in divorce.



If you're not willing to put the marriage at risk, then you have no leverage.

She can keep doing what she wants without worrying about any consequences.

Sure, you'd think that she'd care enough about your happiness to work on this.

There are two possibilities:

1) She doesn't truly understand how unhappy you are about this.

2) She doesn't care about your happiness

You convey your unhappiness to her by saying "I am very unhappy with the state of our sex life. If nothing changes, I will have to consider leaving at some point". Of course, if you're never going to actually leave under any circumstances, then you're just going to lose credibility. In that case, don't say anything and work on destabilizing and the 180.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

This is a complicated thing that requires work from many angles.

First you have to think about what makes your wife tick and what makes you tick. For example commonly men marry to have a wife and a companion, and women marry to have a marriage and a life. And the marriage itself becomes a vehicle for the greater good. Each of you get more fulfillment than you can have on your own. You must be giving her what she needs (are you?) and she must be giving you what you need (she is not).

The message is that not every wife or husband for that matter needs sex to feel fulfilled. This does not make them bad people or less loving. So with a wife like yours the course of action is not about sex, it's about marriage, it's about the greater good, and it's about giving and it's about receiving.

There's many layers to this but you have to develop a marriage over time where each of you is in a mode of "giving" to each other not to just do it but with the understanding and motivation that what we give provides satisfaction and fulfillment to our partner which promotes our own fulfillment.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Atlanta,
You have a physical house and a virtual house. The virtual house is how you FEEL about the folks in your family. And how they feel about you. 

Just for a moment - stop focusing on how fit and productive and reliable everyone is. You have convinced ALL of us that your family is run in an efficient and cooperative manner. 

By the way - I give you high marks for coming here - and trying to work through this stuff. It is difficult and scary. For anyone. 

Let's do a baseline. More than anyone you know what a craving is. You crave a certain interaction with your wife. 

What does she crave from you? Your company? Your touch? Your sense of humor? What? 

Cause I have news for you. One reason you feel so anxious - is - in the current setup she doesn't crave much from you. And until you fix that, it will be hard to fix the bedroom issues.





Marriednatlanta said:


> Good feedback and probably why we both need some therapy. After 19+ years I am sure any marriage needs a tuneup. Meaningful? Works hard, stays in shape, good mom, active, etc...as I said earlier -- it's not really anything other the bedroom. I have just reached a threshold of needing some alternative ideas. And, I have gotten some. So that's good.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

As what do child custody and alimony laws look like in Georgia? Esp for 20 years. Does your spouse work outside the house? If the state is not particularly man friendly divorce wise you may find it more difficult to play destabilizing...

Also, and you are the only person qualified to answer, is your wife one to "fall" for 180/destabilizing type actions? 20 years is a long time.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I have tried all of those things over the years and it never ends well. Just a look of incredible disappointment (she knows this is an issue) than I feel bad for even asking and resolve (I'll just accept this as normal).





Marriednatlanta said:


> I grew up in a ultra conservative environment, then religion kicked in, then my friend(s) got their GFs pregnant, then I dated around but it never got serious enough to get that point then...we well it just happened (me waiting). I waited, she did not. And I don't resent that about her all.





Marriednatlanta said:


> That is an excellent excellent question. Once I told her I was still a V....she said let's wait. I said ok. We met, dated, got engaged and married in 12m. We were older soo it's not like I was 20.
> 
> That was a good question BTW. One I have not really thought about...glad I posted this question. Hope I am doing this right.





Marriednatlanta said:


> She has some f'ed up history in past with sex -- details somewhat vague and it was nothing taboo but there was some emotional trauma. Happened in HS. I think.





Marriednatlanta said:


> There is definitely something deeper going on that I can't even begin to understand.


I'm going to make an educated guess that this all goes back to that traumatic event. Now there may be more to it, with some poisoning by her parents by making sex a taboo or dirty thing. But you have described all the hallmarks of a child sex abuse or sexual assault victim.

She was happy to wait to have sex with you because it took the pressure off of her. Most people enjoy sex. People who have been sexual with others have no reason not to be sexual with their fiance, and in fact normal people look forward to and enjoy sex with their fiance. Normal people would not be happy with no sex with their fiance if they have had sexual relationships before.

You were the "safe guy", and I'll even go out on a limb and say you were the "Safe Nice Guy". You're probably somewhere in the spectrum of a Nice Guy in line with Dr. Glover's book "No More Mr. Nice Guy". You had some hang-ups regarding sex back when you met her which are consistent with Nice Guy Syndrome. I think you could benefit from reading the book. Also, "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by Smith is well worth reading. It is far more than what the title suggests.

Anyhow, I don't think you're dealing with the typical situation of a tired woman who is working too hard and perhaps is trying to live up to some too high standard of Mom. I think whatever it was that allegedly happened in high school is much more than she's alluded to, or she is actually covering up something far bigger.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

My recommendation is you don't do any of the following:
-- Recommend sex therapy
-- Insinuate that she has trauma in the past that is causing a sexual hangup
-- Tell her to read any books

There are two problems with this. One, she will crystallize the exact reason she is not sexual and it will be nothing you can ever fix. Two, you are reinforcing to her that you think she is broken in some way and that lack of true acceptance of her is something that makes it impossible for her to be safe / sexual with you.

You have to focus on setting up a marriage where she understands that to keep her own personal happiness that she has to provide you with her sexuality. And it is she that has to overcome the internal obstacles to make that happen. The therapy approach could very well put you into the position of being and insenstive jerk who wants to gratify himself with a wife who has been victimized in the past.

What I see from your post is she gets her own personal happiness but is not required to provide you with her sexuality. The Costa Rica trip is a glaring example. You being a great husband and doing alot is another glaring example. The fact that you are still married and acting like "it's all great except this one aspect" is another example. You need to reorient your thinking to say to yourself that you are not a doormat who gives excessively but receives little. You need to reorient her thinking into the fact that making a kid breakfast does not make her husband feel satisfied in her marriage.

By the way, it takes effort for a human being to suppress their sexuality. Rarely are people non sexual so play the probabilities that your wife is suppressing her own sexuality with effort she is making.

There are alot of stories of men who had a prude wife... Said wife ends up having a torrid affair with a personal trainer, tennis instructor, home contractor etc... These me reflect on that experience and realize that their soft or pissy approach was exactly the opposite of what was needed.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Thor said:


> I'm going to make an educated guess that this all goes back to that traumatic event. Now there may be more to it, with some poisoning by her parents by making sex a taboo or dirty thing. But you have described all the hallmarks of a child sex abuse or sexual assault victim.
> 
> She was happy to wait to have sex with you because it took the pressure off of her. Most people enjoy sex. People who have been sexual with others have no reason not to be sexual with their fiance, and in fact normal people look forward to and enjoy sex with their fiance. Normal people would not be happy with no sex with their fiance if they have had sexual relationships before.
> 
> ...


I think you are 1000% spot on with your assessment. I have some homework to do that's for sure. Thanks.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Hicks said:


> My recommendation is you don't do any of the following:
> -- Recommend sex therapy
> -- Insinuate that she has trauma in the past that is causing a sexual hangup
> -- Tell her to read any books
> ...



WOW. A lot to think about. Thanks. I am going to have re-read this and really think about it. Thanks again. I especially like the "provide me" with her sexuality theme. Very insightful.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I'm a with you -- on the "shutdown" part. For what it is worth...I am in decent shape, maybe better shape than I have been in in awhile, take good care of myself, etc...soo I hope it's not an attraction thing. My thinking this that she knows it's an issue (our crappy sex life) is really only in it (having sex) to get it over with and back to her work day and satisfy me at some level.
> 
> Sex therapy is on the table for sure, just need to tell/ask her, hopefully before Costa.


Appearance is part of it, but not nearly all. Being well groomed and in shape doesn't make a woman feel sexually attracted to you by itself. Physical chemistry, the man's skill as a lover, his general vibe, etc. all play a role.

Don't ask her about therapy. Tell her. This is a very big problem, it's not something you can fix by yourselves as evidenced by the fact that there is still a problem, and therapy is no longer optional.

After 20 years, you are both very much conditioned to certain patterns, habits, responses, etc. You are going to need professional help to overcome that.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Atlanta,
> You have a physical house and a virtual house. The virtual house is how you FEEL about the folks in your family. And how they feel about you.
> 
> Just for a moment - stop focusing on how fit and productive and reliable everyone is. You have convinced ALL of us that your family is run in an efficient and cooperative manner.
> ...


What does she crave.....that is a great great question.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

jb02157 said:


> I think you're setting yourself up for a real disappointment and waste of money.


Those were my thoughts exactly. In my opinion, if he is determined to travel together, they should visit a place in which they can concentrate on activities like bike riding or snow skiing.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> As what do child custody and alimony laws look like in Georgia? Esp for 20 years. Does your spouse work outside the house? If the state is not particularly man friendly divorce wise you may find it more difficult to play destabilizing...
> 
> Also, and you are the only person qualified to answer, is your wife one to "fall" for 180/destabilizing type actions? 20 years is a long time.


What is "180"? Not going the divorce route. Will buy my own s-x toys (for myself) before I do that.


----------



## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Steve1000 said:


> Those were my thoughts exactly. In my opinion, if he is determined to travel together, they should visit a place in which they can concentrate on activities like bike riding or snow skiing.


It's a kick ass all inclusive resort in Costa Rica. Zip lining, ATVs, snorkeling, etc....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

180 is a sometimes successful, mostly futile in longer marriages effort to destabilize... 

If divorce is off the table you aren't going to accomplish much with an 180 in any case.

Not a lot of other options I'm afraid.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Steve1000 said:


> Those were my thoughts exactly. In my opinion, if he is determined to travel together, they should visit a place in which they can concentrate on activities like bike riding or snow skiing.


Very true but the reason for the trip is their anniversary so sex is going to be one of the things you would naturally think be envolved. If he goes the extra mile to make it nice and his wife shuts off sex, then it becomes a bad trip almost automatically. I honestly think they should not go on a trip like this until this impasse is settled.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> It's a kick ass all inclusive resort in Costa Rica. Zip lining, ATVs, snorkeling, etc....


The part that would concern me though is that you'll be surrounded in the evenings at the lounges by couples in love or in lust (or possibly even both). Exposing myself to a romantic atmosphere while in a disappointing marriage, would just make me feel worse. Of course I'd be glad to see you come back from your trip and tell me that you're glad you went.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Atlanta,
Your totally honest response below is rather helpful. 

You have a high cooperation, low connection marriage. 

You have told us enough that I can mostly describe the Lego pieces which comprise your dilemma.

The cooperation vibe creates a 'everything seems pretty good' type appearance. And that's ok - cooperation is a beatiful thing. 

As you have discovered, it just isn't enough. 

The biggest challenge in creating a connection is in identifying and suppressing a natural and powerful reflex you aren't even aware of. The 'ego protection' reflex. For example, we all have hard wired physical preferences. And layered on top of those a set of experiences.

Maybe your wife, henceforth (A2) doesn't much like sex. Maybe she had a bad experience. Ego protection makes the idea that she was damaged prior to meeting you an appealing prospect. Because then none of this is your fault. 

An ego neutral posture is far healthier. Open ended questions: 
- Why don't we have much of a connection?
- Why don't I know what my wife really craves?
- Why doesn't she seem to crave one on one time with me?

You are fluent in your wife's skills and habits and utterly unsighted regarding her thoughts and motivations. 

Your ego protective reflex is both fast and subtle. I bet she is careful about what she says to you. And - that - is - unfortunate. 

Let's do a simple test. I'll show you how that reflex works.

Mechanically you are an excellent husband outside the bedroom. 






Marriednatlanta said:


> What does she crave.....that is a great great question.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Atlanta,
> Your totally honest response below is rather helpful.
> 
> You have a high cooperation, low connection marriage.
> ...


Ok, what is the next step? Do I need to answer something?


----------



## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Steve1000 said:


> The part that would concern me though is that you'll be surrounded in the evenings at the lounges by couples in love or in lust (or possibly even both). Exposing myself to a romantic atmosphere while in a disappointing marriage, would just make me feel worse. Of course I'd be glad to see you come back from your trip and tell me that you're glad you went.


We have been on vacations etc...limited or no sex, I find things to do to make to make great. Activities, listening to music, etc..I'm not much of a drinker in general so "get drunk" is not something I make a goal. If that makes sense. The trip is booked and paid for.....we are going. N is coming too.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Step 1: confirmation or correction.

Does that assessment feel about right to you? If not - where am I off. If so - yes - I can make suggestions.





Marriednatlanta said:


> Ok, what is the next step? Do I need to answer something?


----------



## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Step 1: confirmation or correction.
> 
> Does that assessment feel about right to you? If not - where am I off. If so - yes - I can make suggestions.



Feels right, minus the "careful what she says" around me. We have everyday normal convo about life, kids, travel, work travel, etc...ego protection (I think) sounds very familiar in terms of what I am living with.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ok

I don't mean careful about the mechanics of life. I mean careful about - difficult stuff.

After a quick recap - it might be clear what is next. She knows you are upset about your sex life. 

You however, don't know your wife as well as maybe you could. So let's focus on that single goal. A deeper understanding of A2. 

Watch episode 1, season 1 of the tv series 'Lie to me'. The series is based on real science. 

And then start learning to read her body language and facial expressions. 

By the way - I'm not saying she is dishonest. I am saying that she is broadcasting a steady stream of non verbal information that you are likely missing. Getting good at that at is your first step.

In terms of creating a connection - this ability - is incredibly powerful. 

And just to be clear: Until you create a strong connection with A2 - you won't be able to improve your sex life. 

The one is a prerequisite for the other. 




Marriednatlanta said:


> Feels right, minus the "careful what she says" around me. We have everyday normal convo about life, kids, travel, work travel, etc...ego protection (I think) sounds very familiar in terms of what I am living with.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Ok
> 
> I don't mean careful about the mechanics of life. I mean careful about - difficult stuff.
> 
> ...


Ok. Yes "careful about difficult stuff" meaning anything related to SEX YES. I think I'm pretty good at reading people. I am def. well versed in reading her....I will try to watch that show. 

My gut feeling is that I have not asked enough questions about her past, in HS. Because, a lot of people have suggested (very accurately) that "N" (wife) is hung up or whatever you call it, has some major block or issue with intimacy based on what happened in HS. Maybe something in college too. 

This forum has helped me focus more on what could be a root problem. I don't think it's me (being honest). I could be wrong. I have worked tirelessly at trying to make for an environment that she feels "safe" in to be intimate. Lowered the expectations. Did not ask for anything out of ordinary. Did not get anything that's for sure. 

Again thanks for you and everyone -- I have some newfound hope. I think.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The connection should be bidirectional, in case it's not clear. You can connect all you want to her but if there's no connection back...

Penetrating the wall that she's built around herself is where the first problem lies. That's you connecting to her, and it's generally doable.

Her reaching out to you is the second problem. That's a lot harder.

In 2012 when I was naive enough to believe I could save my marriage we went for a 25th anniversary cruise to Alaska. It was midnight, deck 17 bar, the two of us enjoying probably the most romantic place I could think of. I tried to make conversation and after a few monosyllabic answers decided to keep quiet. She did not speak a word, and not because she was overwhelmed . That was the beginning of the end.

Maybe you can do the same in Costa Rica?


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

@OP

I would say go to a sex counselor to have her and you (!) understand that a good sex life is *vital* to a good marriage. Once you both agree on that (also you, because you accepted the slipping away!) you can find ways to provide scheduled sex timeboxes in the weekschedule. Then get used to just go on with it, no matter what. The liking will follow the practice, I am confident.

Oh yeah, you need to have a lot of candle light, soft music and nice smells to make it a good love nest. Take 1,5 hour for the total. If necessary with the kids, even a timebox when they are away during the day, or early evening is ok.

Good luck!


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> The connection should be bidirectional, in case it's not clear. You can connect all you want to her but if there's no connection back...
> 
> Penetrating the wall that she's built around herself is where the first problem lies. That's you connecting to her, and it's generally doable.
> 
> ...


Spot on analysis. I will be honest, I am little nervous about how this trip is really going to go....the last thing I want is any tension or friction or whatever over our sh-ty sex life. I see us arriving at the resort a little road weary with flights and customs etc. relaxing and then going to find dinner, tour the resort. I am a talker (if that's not too obvious  ) soo if the trip starts bad or she is not for some reason able to have fun or relax -- that is on her. I am going to have fun on this trip. 

I'v thought of having the "conversation" about all of this in Costa -- but, now, why would I spoil our week? It will only cause problems the rest of the week and she will feel the "set-up" aspect of the conversation. "So, N, now that I have you in Costa, why don't you like to (insert anything) when we have sex?" 

Could take a different approach and just volunteer things..."when I travel for work, I miss you" " hotels make me horny" just odds and ends stuff I don't share with her now because she cant not handle it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I'm confused.

What does a bad sexual experience in high school have to do with:
- You not knowing what N craves (I don't mean sexually - I mean in general)
- N not craving one on one quality time with you
- A weak emotional connection

This is my one and only explicit warning: If you give her an easy out, she will take it. 

The ultimate ego protection move is to focus on something from twenty plus years ago instead of the present.




Marriednatlanta said:


> Ok. Yes "careful about difficult stuff" meaning anything related to SEX YES. I think I'm pretty good at reading people. I am def. well versed in reading her....I will try to watch that show.
> 
> My gut feeling is that I have not asked enough questions about her past, in HS. Because, a lot of people have suggested (very accurately) that "N" (wife) is hung up or whatever you call it, has some major block or issue with intimacy based on what happened in HS. Maybe something in college too.
> 
> ...


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

See_Listen_Love said:


> @OP
> 
> I would say go to a sex counselor to have her and you (!) understand that a good sex life is *vital* to a good marriage. Once you both agree on that (also you, because you accepted the slipping away!) you can find ways to provide scheduled sex timeboxes in the weekschedule. Then get used to just go on with it, no matter what. The liking will follow the practice, I am confident.
> 
> ...


I would go just to establish the first part (sex is important for us/me). The second part (time/schedule/stay with it) etc...I tried that method for years (and years) and I am still trying it -- does not work. She does not like the pressure of knowing...it's MOnday at 12:00 time for sex. I am paraphrasing but that is the smokescreen I have gotten.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It is simply wrong to try and address this major issue directly or indirectly while she is a captive audience in Costa. 

That type move will erode trust.





Marriednatlanta said:


> Spot on analysis. I will be honest, I am little nervous about how this trip is really going to go....the last thing I want is any tension or friction or whatever over our sh-ty sex life. I see us arriving at the resort a little road weary with flights and customs etc. relaxing and then going to find dinner, tour the resort. I am a talker (if that's not too obvious  ) soo if the trip starts bad or she is not for some reason able to have fun or relax -- that is on her. I am going to have fun on this trip.
> 
> I'v thought of having the "conversation" about all of this in Costa -- but, now, why would I spoil our week? It will only cause problems the rest of the week and she will feel the "set-up" aspect of the conversation. "So, N, now that I have you in Costa, why don't you like to (insert anything) when we have sex?"
> 
> Could take a different approach and just volunteer things..."when I travel for work, I miss you" " hotels make me horny" just odds and ends stuff I don't share with her now because she cant not handle it.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

You are setting yourself up for an epic fail and huge resentment. Assume there will be no sex in CR. In fact, I think that 2 or 3 days before you go, you should tell her that you want the trip to be relaxing and mutually invigorating so you have decided there will be no sex during the vacation. That way both of you can relax and you don't have to worry about what each of you is thinking or wanting or not wanting and you can just focus on enjoying the time together in a non-sexual way. If she does not jump your bones during the trip to prove that she can overwhelm your resistance, then you can toss away any thoughts that you will ever have a mutually satisfying sexual relationship with this woman. And you will not have ruined the trip or created huge resentment in yourself, because you are the one who banned sex. Always feel better to be the one who makes decisions and takes control. Take control. In the only way you can. Ban sex entirely.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I wouldn't do that either.

Don't take it off the table. Don't initiate. 

Leave it to N to initiate or not. Assume she won't. If she does - have fun.

Telling her it is OK that your sex life is dead - is telling her that YOUR NEEDS don't matter. Huge mistake. Your needs DO matter. But you don't want to raise them in a captive audience context. 

If she was that afraid of the idea of being alone with you - she would have declined to go.




Holdingontoit said:


> You are setting yourself up for an epic fail and huge resentment. Assume there will be no sex in CR. In fact, I think that 2 or 3 days before you go, you should tell her that you want the trip to be relaxing and mutually invigorating so you have decided there will be no sex during the vacation. That way both of you can relax and you don't have to worry about what each of you is thinking or wanting or not wanting and you can just focus on enjoying the time together in a non-sexual way. If she does not jump your bones during the trip to prove that she can overwhelm your resistance, then you can toss away any thoughts that you will ever have a mutually satisfying sexual relationship with this woman. And you will not have ruined the trip or created huge resentment in yourself, because you are the one who banned sex. Always feel better to be the one who makes decisions and takes control. Take control. In the only way you can. Ban sex entirely.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> I'm confused.
> 
> What does a bad sexual experience in high school have to do with:
> - You not knowing what N craves (I don't mean sexually - I mean in general)
> ...


Ugh you are confused!? I am too. Ok, the answer is I don't know. It seemed like the previous experience might be a big road block hence why we waited, why it's gotten worse....I need to really think about all of this. N is travelling later this week and me the following week. I am going to re-read all of these and try to write down some notes so I know what I should try to do. 

Is that TV show -- just that particular episode? Or are you saying the whole show to understand body language etc...?

We do have a weak emotional connection. That is true. I think it's true. What does a strong one look like?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Dialup versus fiber. That simple...


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> It is simply wrong to try and address this major issue directly or indirectly while she is a captive audience in Costa.
> 
> That type move will erode trust.


I agree. Just an idea floating around my head. Bad one. But I'v run through it in my head more than once.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I would go just to establish the first part (sex is important for us/me). The second part (time/schedule/stay with it) etc...I tried that method for years (and years) and I am still trying it -- does not work. She does not like the pressure of knowing...it's MOnday at 12:00 time for sex. I am paraphrasing but that is the smokescreen I have gotten.


DO NOT initiate sex in Costa Rica! She'll just see the whole trip as a covert contract to your part to have sex.

It's not like you haven't been able to go a week without sex in the past. 

I'm not sure if I'd announce it ahead of time as Holding is recommending.

Focus on conversations about her and what she wants out of life, what's important to her etc.

Don't talk about how she's failing to meet your needs (yet).

If things start to seem romantic, ignore them, don't react.

Having sex on vacation isn't going to solve any problems and may just cause mpre.

If she initiates (fat chance), I'd pass. If she asks why, just tell her that you're not willing to risk messing up the vacation.

You won't be disappointed and she'll be a little unsettled, which never hurts.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> DO NOT initiate sex in Costa Rica! She'll just see the whole trip as a covert contract to your part to have sex.
> 
> It's not like you haven't been able to go a week without sex in the past.
> 
> ...


Can I pose a question to that theory....?

Ok "N" let try this (anything in the foreplay arena) and then move to a different postion? Basically, saying (without saying) I'm all in, but it's not going to be the way it has been for 20 years. 

Just refusing is a NUCLEAR option I'm not sure I want to use on a 20 year trip. Just my honest feelings.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@MEM2020: I rarely disagree with you, but here I feel strongly for a few reasons.

1. I do not think "no sex this vacation" sends the message "it is OK that our sex life is dead". It only sends that message if she is oblivious and does not care about his feelings. If that is the case, then he has no shot at long term success and it doesn't matter what he does this vacation. If she has a clue and cares about him, she will realize he is making a caring gesture so they can enjoy their precious vacation together.

2. When you have a decent sex life, vacation creates an opportunity to have more and better sex. More free time. Less chores and responsibilities. When you are in a dry spell (and some of those can last a LONG time), vacation creates enormous pressure to have sex that one or both doesn't want and won't enjoy, but will feel very very guilty for not providing. This creates an enormous incentive for the LD spouse (perhaps only subconsciously) to pick fights to justify not having sex. Very easy for this mechanism to destroy an otherwise wonderful vacation. Taking sex off the table helps create an environment where they get along well on vacation, which can create goodwill that spill over toward . . .

3. Having sex at home. Having sex while on vacation doesn't solve the mismatch problem. The problem is not having frequent mutually satisfying sex at home during "real life". You can always say "I won't be having sex with you while we are on vacation, but I expect that we will address my need for sex when we get back. Because my need for sex on a long term basis is important to me, and if it isn't important to you, then we have an enduring problem that threatens our marriage."

There is plenty of time when they get home to save their marriage. Their is not as much time to save the vacation. A lousy vacation makes it that much harder to solve their problems when they get back.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> You are setting yourself up for an epic fail and huge resentment. Assume there will be no sex in CR. In fact, I think that 2 or 3 days before you go, you should tell her that you want the trip to be relaxing and mutually invigorating so you have decided there will be no sex during the vacation. That way both of you can relax and you don't have to worry about what each of you is thinking or wanting or not wanting and you can just focus on enjoying the time together in a non-sexual way. If she does not jump your bones during the trip to prove that she can overwhelm your resistance, then you can toss away any thoughts that you will ever have a mutually satisfying sexual relationship with this woman. And you will not have ruined the trip or created huge resentment in yourself, because you are the one who banned sex. Always feel better to be the one who makes decisions and takes control. Take control. In the only way you can. Ban sex entirely.


Wow that is a nuclear option for sure..really something to ponder. WOW


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> @MEM2020: I rarely disagree with you, but here I feel strongly for a few reasons.
> 
> 1. I do not think "no sex this vacation" sends the message "it is OK that our sex life is dead". It only sends that message if she is oblivious and does not care about his feelings. If that is the case, then he has no shot at long term success and it doesn't matter what he does this vacation. If she has a clue and cares about him, she will realize he is making a caring gesture so they can enjoy their precious vacation together.
> 
> ...


I feel like bullet point #2 is painfully accurate. Over the years...and I mean YEARS, I have been told "not tonight, let's try tomorrow night" and guess what....the next day/evening we get in some dumb argument and then sex is off the table. Has happened soo many times I just tell N -- "you know and I know we won't have sex tomorrow night". Then it's a 50/50. She will relent reluctantly or promise it will happen. It has NEVER happened.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The whole series is a fascinating analysis of human behavior. It taught me a lot, and before watching it, I had no idea how little I understood about the science of human facial expression. 

A strong emotional connection is one where you are AT LEAST as concerned with your partners well being as your own. And where you generally feel better in their presence than you do alone. And where you understand each other at a level no one else does. 




Marriednatlanta said:


> Ugh you are confused!? I am too. Ok, the answer is I don't know. It seemed like the previous experience might be a big road block hence why we waited, why it's gotten worse....I need to really think about all of this. N is travelling later this week and me the following week. I am going to re-read all of these and try to write down some notes so I know what I should try to do.
> 
> Is that TV show -- just that particular episode? Or are you saying the whole show to understand body language etc...?
> 
> We do have a weak emotional connection. That is true. I think it's true. What does a strong one look like?


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> The whole series is a fascinating analysis of human behavior. It taught me a lot, and before watching it, I had no idea how little I understood about the science of human facial expression.
> 
> A strong emotional connection is one where you are AT LEAST as concerned with your partners well being as your own. And where you generally feel better in their presence than you do alone. And where you understand each other at a level no one else does.


Now you have my attention. I hope it's on Netflix.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sorry guys - I screwed up. I liked this when in truth I like all of it except the idea of rejecting her. If she initiates - have fun.

But - and this is a bit subtle but very important. If she initiates in a bullshlt way - like she will tolerate sex if you want to have it - THAT - you should decline. 

But if she is genuinely wanting to - you two should have fun. It creates a connection. 




Buddy400 said:


> DO NOT initiate sex in Costa Rica! She'll just see the whole trip as a covert contract to your part to have sex.
> 
> It's not like you haven't been able to go a week without sex in the past.
> 
> ...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Now you have my attention. I hope it's on Netflix.


I would watch it while she's around. Not *with* her, just when she's around.

If she asks why you're watching it, just say "I heard it was interesting". Don't comment on what you see.

Even better, start watching it at a time when she would normally be expecting you to do something with her or watch something she's interested in.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

For any big-time advice, it is always important to consider the source. HoldingOnToIt is a great TAM participant who has a very unusual solution for his marriage relationship dilemma. I would encourage you to read his thread before initiating the nuclear option.

I would think best approach is to let Costa Rica play out with low expectations and no intentions to initiate. If she asks why you don't initiate, you use the "I wanted this vacation to be relaxing for both of us and you've clearly communicated with me that the idea of being intimate with me is something that causes you stress and is something that you don't desire. We're going to have to figure that out at some point but right now I just want to enjoy being with you."

Then, let's say there's no / minimal intimacy on the trip. Yet, she comes back all happy from the relaxing vacation. Then, if you're serious about this, you tell her, "I'm glad that you enjoyed our trip. I did, too. I can't wait for the 25th anniversary. But if we're going to make it to 25, there need to be changes. I need to be with a partner interested in being intimate with me, and we have to work on solving these problems while we're still in love. We've been working on this for the better part of 20 years, it's time to turn to some outside help and go to a counselor."

She continues to live the idyllic life. Dutiful husband, nice family etc. But she faces no consequences for not meeting the needs of her spouse. Why would she change? I agree that there's no margin in spoiling a perfectly good vacation trying to solve a problem you haven't been able to solve for years. But you have to wrap your mind around the fact that consequences will result from a lack of intimacy. If you don't set down boundaries and consequences, you will continue to live as you have in the past. You are doing well by detaching and illustrating that sex is not the only thing on your mind. After proving that you CAN live without it, you must then show her that you WILL NOT ACCEPT a long-term relationship that forces you to live without it.

You are not seeking anything out of bounds, but you will have to have to harsh, frank conversations that outline negative consequences absent change. If you are unwilling / unable to set the boundaries and consequences, then look at HoldingOnToIt's thread again to get a glimpse of your future.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Sorry guys - I screwed up. I liked this when in truth I like all of it except the idea of rejecting her. If she initiates - have fun.
> 
> But - and this is a bit subtle but very important. If she initiates in a bullshlt way - like she will tolerate sex if you want to have it - THAT - you should decline.
> 
> But if she is genuinely wanting to - you two should have fun. It creates a connection.


And that is a very very valid point. Numerous times...she has agreed to have sex with me or on a rare occasion even suggested it only to just lay there and be like "ok, start" as in start the routine that is killing me slowly. I have always caved and just "started" but it's brutal bc I hate it now. The routine that is. I hate just going through the motions of sex. I like the end result bc I feel better or whatever but the "routine" of sex is what I can't do anymore. Kinda what brought me to this forum.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Excellent analysis.

I just think it's harsh to say: we won't be having sex

And less confrontational to say: The point of vacation is to relax. I don't want you to worry that I'm going to pressure you to do anything you don't want to do on our trip.

If she plays dumb and asks: like what

He ought to shrug and respond with: Well there's only ONE thing I ever pressure you to do.

And then he needs to stop talking. If she disputes that notion he might learn some useful stuff. Maybe she feels pressured in ways he doesn't know. 

I understand the 'power dynamic' of saying 'sex won't happen on vacation'. But it isn't genuine because she KNOWS he likes it. 

I freely admit - there isn't a clear - right - answer. These are just my thoughts. 





Holdingontoit said:


> @MEM2020: I rarely disagree with you, but here I feel strongly for a few reasons.
> 
> 1. I do not think "no sex this vacation" sends the message "it is OK that our sex life is dead". It only sends that message if she is oblivious and does not care about his feelings. If that is the case, then he has no shot at long term success and it doesn't matter what he does this vacation. If she has a clue and cares about him, she will realize he is making a caring gesture so they can enjoy their precious vacation together.
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

See, now @MEM2020 and I are closer to one the same page. A major aspect of taking sex off the table for the vacation is to see if she initiates, and initiates strongly, and demands a session that is satisfying for her. Because this is data as to how awful your situation is. If she is really pleased that you took sex off the table and doesn't bother trying to initiate while on vacation that is valuable information. Bad news, but valuable date. Data that you should relate to the sex therapist during your first session after the vacation. If you can't get your W and the ST to agree that one goal of therapy is for your wife to want to jump your bones during your next vacation together, then you might as well stop taking vacations together and file for divorce. Stick a fork in it, it is over and done.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MarriedTex said:


> For any big-time advice, it is always important to consider the source. HoldingOnToIt is a great TAM participant who has a very unusual solution for his marriage relationship dilemma. I would encourage you to read his thread before initiating the nuclear option.
> 
> I would think best approach is to let Costa Rica play out with low expectations and no intentions to initiate. If she asks why you don't initiate, you use the "I wanted this vacation to be relaxing for both of us and you've clearly communicated with me that the idea of being intimate with me is something that causes you stress and is something that you don't desire. We're going to have to figure that out at some point but right now I just want to enjoy being with you."
> 
> ...


Very good insight and a great strategy. I am def. planning on the first part, no expectations etc...need to get more committed to the chat post.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Excellent analysis.
> 
> I just think it's harsh to say: we won't be having sex
> 
> ...


Yeah, I am not saying "NO SEX" on vacation. That is not anyone best interests. Trust me. But having NOT asked for it in 2+ weeks, hinted about it, went home for lunch, she is getting the message. It needs to change. 

Oddly, today, she was bent over doing something and wow I thought (I miss that). SIGH.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Very good insight and a great strategy. I am def. planning on the first part, no expectations etc...need to get more committed to the chat post.


Please remember, the first part of low-keying sex on the vacation will have little impact if you don't follow up with the straight-forward post-vacation chat that sets expectations - and consequences for when expectations are not met. Right now, the approach of taking sex requests off the table is what followers of the "No More Mr. Nice Guy" book by Robert Glover call a "covert contract." You are engaging in behavior where you have agreed with yourself - in your own mind - that a certain behavior on your part should produce a certain response from your partner. The only problem here is that you have not clued her in on your little agreement. Ultimately, you will become resentful when she does not respond in the way you are anticipating.

So now, quietly, you are expecting your withdrawal to make her realize what she is missing and come chasing you. This will not turn out the way you envision in your mind's eye and it will make you more bitter over time. What's more, convert contracts are a really jerky think to impose upon a partner. Much more authentic to lay cards on the table, tell her what your expectations / desires are and set clear consequences of what will happen if she is unwilling / unable to address the issue. The key is setting a consequence you are willing to enforce. Instead of divorce, maybe the boundary is that you will wind up spending more time on your hobbies with your friends. You have to come up with what's right for you. But, without directly and clearly expressing boundaries and consequences, you're going nowhere - fast.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Ugh you are confused!? I am too. Ok, the answer is I don't know. It seemed like the previous experience might be a big road block hence why we waited, why it's gotten worse....I need to really think about all of this.


Food for thoughts.

Are you being too gentle? Maybe she has kinks. Maybe she hasn't told you about them. Maybe she actually wants you to suggest things that are beyond vanilla.

It's not unheard of for a woman to marry a man she isn't sexually attracted to because she thinks he would make a good husband in every other way and no one can have it all, right? The sex starts off ho-hum and ends up very rare after children, if it exists at all.

If she had limited experience before you and you had no experience, she might actually want nothing because she has never been properly aroused physically and mentally. Maybe her sexuality is still very largely unexplored.

How is your interaction? Lots of hugs, kisses, casual touches as you pass each other, laughter, sharing of personal thoughts and feelings, whispered secrets as you cuddle before sleep, etc?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> I just think it's harsh to say: we won't be having sex
> 
> And less confrontational to say: The point of vacation is to relax. I don't want you to worry that I'm going to pressure you to do anything you don't want to do on our trip.


Agree that my way is harsher and more confrontational. Disagree that less harsh and less confrontational is the way to go after 20 years of a sexually deficient marriage. To me, there is a benefit in saying something jarring and forceful. Something unexpected and a clear break with the past. Tone and manner affect the message. 

I think being non-confrontational in tone actually does what you warned against in your previous post. Makes it seems like the absence of sex is no big deal and he is OK with a dead bed marriage. I think being harsh and confrontation is more likely to signal "this is not just another mild and wimpy attempt to beg you for more sex. This time I am serious that things are not going to be same old - same old as they have been for 20 years."

Only the OP can tell how far gone he is. To me sounds pretty darn far gone. I tried non-confrontational. I tried being polite and rationally asking for what I wanted and communicating that its absence negatively affected our marriage. I went to MC and ST and sat there mostly politely listening to her recite over and over again all the BS reasons why she couldn't bring herself to have sex with me, not even when we went on vacation for a week or 10 days without the kids. At some point if you want change you have to rock the boat. Maybe not the right advice during year 2 or 3 or 5 of a marriage where the sex started great an gradually wore down. But in year 20 of a marriage where sex has been lousy for a long time and where there has already been lots of polite conversation about how much this bothers him and polite requests for change on her part that have generated zero movement from her side, I think the time to avoid being harsh or confrontational has long since passed.

@MarriedTex is correct. OP should weigh where this advice is coming from. But remember, after 20+ years of a sexless marriage and 8 years of pointless MC and ST, the only thing that ever got my wife to initiate was my telling her "we will not be having sex any more if that is all you can muster" and then backing it up by turning her down when she initiated. She has offered sex more times in the past 2 months than in the previous 20+ years of our marriage combined. She actually offered to consider getting a vibrator to see if we could make sex better for her because I told her the only way we were ever having sex again was if we worked on making it pleasurable for her. After 20+ years of being told "I don't do toys, I don't do lingerie, I don't do oils or chocolate sauce or whipped cream. I don't do anything but PIV." Now she said she would do some research on the Hitachi Magic Wand to see if it would be worth buying. From every outward indication, she is more head over heels in love with me today than she was the day we got married, any day during our honeymoon, etc. And this is after weeks of being rejected sexually again and again. So I know I am weird and I am know I am warped and biased and crazy. That doesn't mean that when you are cursed to find yourself in my part of the searing desert, that I do not know every inch of this terrain and which way leads to the exit.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

"How is your interaction? Lots of hugs, kisses, casual touches as you pass each other, laughter, sharing of personal thoughts and feelings, whispered secrets as you cuddle before sleep, etc?"

Uh no. Lol. All business. Efficient. Probably another barrier in our communication.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MarriedTex said:


> Please remember, the first part of low-keying sex on the vacation will have little impact if you don't follow up with the straight-forward post-vacation chat that sets expectations - and consequences for when expectations are not met. Right now, the approach of taking sex requests off the table is what followers of the "No More Mr. Nice Guy" book by Robert Glover call a "covert contract." You are engaging in behavior where you have agreed with yourself - in your own mind - that a certain behavior on your part should produce a certain response from your partner. The only problem here is that you have not clued her in on your little agreement. Ultimately, you will become resentful when she does not respond in the way you are anticipating.
> 
> So now, quietly, you are expecting your withdrawal to make her realize what she is missing and come chasing you. This will not turn out the way you envision in your mind's eye and it will make you more bitter over time. What's more, convert contracts are a really jerky think to impose upon a partner. Much more authentic to lay cards on the table, tell her what your expectations / desires are and set clear consequences of what will happen if she is unwilling / unable to address the issue. The key is setting a consequence you are willing to enforce. Instead of divorce, maybe the boundary is that you will wind up spending more time on your hobbies with your friends. You have to come up with what's right for you. But, without directly and clearly expressing boundaries and consequences, you're going nowhere - fast.


Yes I'm doing all of these things and your right. I'm getting more pissed. Solid feedback. Morning flash did not help either. Ugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> Agree that my way is harsher and more confrontational. Disagree that less harsh and less confrontational is the way to go after 20 years of a sexually deficient marriage. To me, there is a benefit in saying something jarring and forceful. Something unexpected and a clear break with the past. Tone and manner affect the message.
> 
> I think being non-confrontational in tone actually does what you warned against in your previous post. Makes it seems like the absence of sex is no big deal and he is OK with a dead bed marriage. I think being harsh and confrontation is more likely to signal "this is not just another mild and wimpy attempt to beg you for more sex. This time I am serious that things are not going to be same old - same old as they have been for 20 years."
> 
> ...


Yeah I have not drawn a line in the sand. Yet. What is PIV?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Marriednatlanta said:


> "How is your interaction? Lots of hugs, kisses, casual touches as you pass each other, laughter, sharing of personal thoughts and feelings, whispered secrets as you cuddle before sleep, etc?"
> 
> Uh no. Lol. All business. Efficient. Probably another barrier in our communication.


That's...bad. Seriously, you go through your days together with no random gestures of affection, no physical, mental, or emotional intimacy? Good God, man, why are you still there? You do know there are women who actually like sex and are willing and able to demonstrate love freely, right?

Jeeze, I'd go batsh!tcrazy if I had to live like that. I love my husband and we've been a couple for 16 years, married for 13 of those, 3 kids, house, dogs, etc. If he were to stop the above AND the sex sucked or was nonexistent, I'd have to seriously consider filing and moving on.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> That's...bad. Seriously, you go through your days together with no random gestures of affection, no physical, mental, or emotional intimacy? Good God, man, why are you still there? You do know there are women who actually like sex and are willing and able to demonstrate love freely, right?
> 
> Jeeze, I'd go batsh!tcrazy if I had to live like that. I love my husband and we've been a couple for 16 years, married for 13 of those, 3 kids, house, dogs, etc. If he were to stop the above AND the sex sucked or was nonexistent, I'd have to seriously consider filing and moving on.


Well it was not always this way. But it is now. Not for lack of effort. I have tried. PDAs etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Well it was not always this way. But it is now. Not for lack of effort. I have tried. PDAs etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If it's been that way long enough that you're here after having tried a laundry list of things to improve the relationship, it's a serious problem. Your marriage is a hot mess. You really do need to insist on counseling and complete transparency/honesty in that counseling.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Wow, soo much talking...

The concept of the Alpha and Beta males is sometimes denied here, but I think the long pieces of text above display it very well.

You need to alpha up a bit, and tell her you want to have sex regularly and she better be enthusiastic about it or you are gone.

That is all.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Atlanta,
Downside to good talkers, is that when feeling anxious - they tend towards nervous talking. I bet that N has learned to just shut up in these conversations about sex or anything else you aren't happy about. She shuts up - you do the talking for both of you.

Just a guess on my part, but an educated guess at that.

Too much one sided talking, or too much talk and not enough touch is bad for creating a connection.

That said you are getting a lot of encouragement to try and coerce N. I am of the belief that coercion is the strategy of last resort. You have plenty of stuff to try - before coercion. Plenty. 

And the only substantive coercive play you have - divorce - is one that you are emotionally not even close to ready for. 

The board is full of the skeletons of dead marriages where the H said: If you don't start putting out, eventually I will leave. But he didn't mean it. 

Maybe N truly is a cold person. Or maybe you just haven't yet learned how to reach in and wrap your hands round her heart. 





Marriednatlanta said:


> "How is your interaction? Lots of hugs, kisses, casual touches as you pass each other, laughter, sharing of personal thoughts and feelings, whispered secrets as you cuddle before sleep, etc?"
> 
> Uh no. Lol. All business. Efficient. Probably another barrier in our communication.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Comprehension trumps coercion.

Atlanta can ask N: Ideally what would you like life to be like when our youngest leaves for college/moves out permanently?

Don't say: 'our life', nor 'your life'

Just 'life'. 

This is the door opener. You need to open the door - and when N deflects or avoids - you need to say what's true without threat or judgement or fear. 

If it was me I'd say this: 

We've never really formed a connection. What we have is a workable parenting partnership. And to keep that going you tolerate a minimum amount of touch. Once the kids leave - we will lack love a connection and even the one bond we have now, which is the shared purpose of parenthood. 

---------
And that's all I would say. No blame. No whining. Just the calm and concise depiction of the world as it is. 
---------
With a little non verbal encouragement, Atlanta can likely get N to talk. Which is what is needed. She needs to talk and he needs to listen.






MarriedTex said:


> Please remember, the first part of low-keying sex on the vacation will have little impact if you don't follow up with the straight-forward post-vacation chat that sets expectations - and consequences for when expectations are not met. Right now, the approach of taking sex requests off the table is what followers of the "No More Mr. Nice Guy" book by Robert Glover call a "covert contract." You are engaging in behavior where you have agreed with yourself - in your own mind - that a certain behavior on your part should produce a certain response from your partner. The only problem here is that you have not clued her in on your little agreement. Ultimately, you will become resentful when she does not respond in the way you are anticipating.
> 
> So now, quietly, you are expecting your withdrawal to make her realize what she is missing and come chasing you. This will not turn out the way you envision in your mind's eye and it will make you more bitter over time. What's more, convert contracts are a really jerky think to impose upon a partner. Much more authentic to lay cards on the table, tell her what your expectations / desires are and set clear consequences of what will happen if she is unwilling / unable to address the issue. The key is setting a consequence you are willing to enforce. Instead of divorce, maybe the boundary is that you will wind up spending more time on your hobbies with your friends. You have to come up with what's right for you. But, without directly and clearly expressing boundaries and consequences, you're going nowhere - fast.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> We do have a weak emotional connection. That is true. I think it's true. What does a strong one look like?


Atlanta--a strong emotional connection is built on a foundation of trust. Trust that you have each others' back, and trust that your partner is looking out for your needs. Do you trust that your wife is looking out for your needs? Does your wife trust you?

You're familiar with the 5 Love Languages? What is your wife's love language? How do you meet it?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

See_Listen_Love said:


> Wow, soo much talking...
> 
> The concept of the Alpha and Beta males is sometimes denied here, but I think the long pieces of text above display it very well.
> 
> ...


Threatening your wife isn't being alpha, it's being an a$$hole. Quickest way to empty, emotionless sex, followed by a walkaway wife as soon as she has the opportunity.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

All,

First and foremost I'm now speaking as a fellow poster not a mod. No one is outside the bounds of forum rules. So as a mod - I say that you are all fine to carry on as you see fit.

As a fellow poster I'm gonna pile on to the theme of Fozzy's post for a moment.

Atlanta has been very candid on this thread. 

I am not sure it's best for us to recommend he threaten to shoot first and ask questions later. Especially when the shootin is being done by proxy if you get my drift.

I believe our job is to help him perform a thorough situation assessment. And AFTER that, make suggestions. 

And fwiw - I'm guilty also. Early on I mentioned him having a financial planning convo with her based on a future depart date when the last kid leaves. 

But we don't really understand his situation very well. So maybe that's the best first step. 





Fozzy said:


> Threatening your wife isn't being alpha, it's being an a$$hole. Quickest way to empty, emotionless sex, followed by a walkaway wife as soon as she has the opportunity.


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## learner4life (Aug 27, 2016)

If she doesn't like sex and you stop initiating, she will see this as a relief not a punishment.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM, the fact that y'all don't understand what we are going through very well, if at all, should be a good indication to actually consider suggestions from those who are / have gone through this.

Much as we want to sugarcoat it, Atlanta has as much chance to turn it around as I do of replacing Jony Ive at Apple. 

The halls of TAM are littered with former posters who were in the same situation and poof they are gone after a few dozen posts...That's why the move hardened posters give less rosy and less optimistic prognostications...

Agreed about the assessment. Yet if more drastic changes are called for, the OP needs to understand that they're not made in haste or out of spite or projection, but because they represent the collective wisdom of those who have experienced it.

Those of us eager to shoot first and ask questions later  have been thru the routine. We know that success is defined not in how many weight lift reps you do or how much your new suit costs ($400) but it's defined by the divorce laws in your state and the family court judges in your town.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I think the op doesn't know it yet but he's going to wake up in 5 years and realize that none of this work was really worth the end result or the effort it'll take to get there.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
Agree that his odds are low for a couple reasons:
- This is a deeply entrenched long term pattern
- Atlanta appears to have minimal leverage in two key areas: finances and emotions

I do however believe he will personally benefit from trying to establish a connection with her. He needs to better understand that theme or his subsequent relationships will fail. And hey - my guess is she's going to keep him at arms length because to date, his primary attempts to connect have been sexual and for whatever reason that part of the marriages isn't working for her.

This is an extremely polarized marriage: mechanically solid and emotionally empty




john117 said:


> MEM, the fact that y'all don't understand what we are going through very well, if at all, should be a good indication to actually consider suggestions from those who are / have gone through this.
> 
> Much as we want to sugarcoat it, Atlanta has as much chance to turn it around as I do of replacing Jony Ive at Apple.
> 
> ...


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## memdad (Sep 23, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Atlanta,
> *Downside to good talkers, is that when feeling anxious - they tend towards nervous talking. I bet that N has learned to just shut up in these conversations about sex or anything else you aren't happy about. She shuts up - you do the talking for both of you.*
> 
> Just a guess on my part, but an educated guess at that.
> ...


ATL - there is an abundance of great insight and advice in this thread. I can relate to much of your struggle, but i want to emphasize the bold lines above. Being a good talker does not make a good communicator. Only recently have i learned to speak in an (almost) consistently authoritative, respectful and concise manner, AND the key part - shut up. It would be very beneficial to pay attention to body language, tone, etc., as others have mentioned. There is definitely an underlying issue here and you need to know what it is before making any firm demands or decisions. I've followed this forum for years and the more details you can provide, the better the advice/insight you will receive. Trauma, boredom, resentment, nice guy issues, etc. or any combination could suggest many different directions to go. But you must identify why she has no desire for sex or sex with you, and the only way to do that is decide what you expect/want/need, what you are willing to do (or not) to achieve those, then sit her down and communicate that in an authoritative, respectful, concise manner. Then ask her thoughts on how your marriage proceeds from there. Do not lead the conversation beyond that, do not interject, do not get defensive, do not take anything personally, only listen, say I understand, etc. etc. etc. If you pay attention to body language, tone, etc., and listen carefully, something will be communicated to you. It may not be much or what you want to hear, but something. And then you go from there. Perhaps you have attempted this, as I had many times. My wife's communication skills outside the home are extraordinary, not so inside the home. Part of that is my tendency to talk often, have an opinion, diagnose and/or fix things, etc. She grew tired of not being heard. By no means am i implying that is you situation. Simply, you hear much more when you are silent. 

I agree with no sex pressure, no sex talk on or before Costa Rica. There are great suggestions here on how to specifically handle it. Process them all and find what works for you. Then sit her down when you return.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Memdad, your assumption here is that she will actually listen and talk and pour her soul. I don't see that happening. She had 20 years. She has been thru the talk part of the program.

Her thought of the marriage is simply this - another day without sex. Let's go to bed and do it all over again. What do you expect her to say? You will get answers - but not the real answer. After 20years she has it down to an art.

Think like a lawyer - never ask a question if you don't already have the answer.


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## memdad (Sep 23, 2016)

john117 said:


> Memdad, your assumption here is that she will actually listen and talk and pour her soul. I don't see that happening. She had 20 years. She has been thru the talk part of the program.
> 
> Her thought of the marriage is simply this - another day without sex. Let's go to bed and do it all over again. What do you expect her to say? You will get answers - but not the real answer. After 20years she has it down to an art.
> 
> Think like a lawyer - never ask a question if you don't already have the answer.



1. I highly doubt she bears her soul, but she most likely will communicate something if he pays careful attention. What I am suggesting is for him to speak and follow that up with stern silence, then let her speak. And I'm not convinced he's done that yet, for a myriad of reasons. If she doesn't listen and shuts down completely, that is communicating she doesn't care what he feels. Perhaps you are correct, and if so, he needs to see that reaction in its entirety. 

2. He doesn't have to ask the question "why do you not like sex or sex with me?" Directly to get the answer to that question, but he does need to know the answer before he can make any conclusions on how to proceed. So like a lawyer, he needs the answer so he can ask the question. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Threatening your wife isn't being alpha, it's being an a$$hole. Quickest way to empty, emotionless sex, followed by a walkaway wife as soon as she has the opportunity.


Seen her motionless lying on the bed, 'undergoing' the penetration by her husband, demanding she be enthusiast about it has nothing to do with 'Threatening'. Threatening to leave is not equal to being an a$$hole. It is clear communication advise after years and years of sheepish behavior from OP. That is manning up.

Empty, emotionless sex, is what he has now, if seldom.

I advise to want passion, or look elsewhere. Quit reasonable if and contradictory with your statement.


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## Capricious (Sep 21, 2016)

I have not read all the replies so I apologise if this has been asked/answered already. Is your wife on any hormonal contraception? 
I was on the pill a few years before having children. My sex drive was really really low. Once I stopped the pill (to conceive) I noticed a huge difference. I never went back on the pill after our first was born (he is 10 now).
We have been together for 20 yrs (married 15) and have a very active sex life. We too have 3 kids (ages 10,6,3).
Could there be hormones affecting her desire/drive?
Does she have a good self esteem? 
This might affect how she feels about herself in general.
Again I apologised if this has already been covered.


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## Cowboy2 (Nov 12, 2013)

You have a lot of advice to sift through, great thing about this forum. Use what resonates with you, dump the rest.

Bottom line is this will stay the same unless your actions inspire change. Your wife is in her comfort zone. She gets everything she wants in the current status quo. You don't. How will you change that? And btw, doing more around the house to "help more" expecting that this will earn you point towards sex does not work.


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## Capricious (Sep 21, 2016)

Cowboy2 said:


> You have a lot of advice to sift through, great thing about this forum. Use what resonates with you, dump the rest.
> 
> Bottom line is this will stay the same unless your actions inspire change. Your wife is in her comfort zone. She gets everything she wants in the current status quo. You don't. How will you change that? And btw, doing more around the house to "help more" expecting that this will earn you point towards sex does not work.


I agree, that doing extra around the house does not earn you extra points towards sex. If the desire for intimacy is there, your extra help will not make a difference. That is not to say that the help around the house is not appreciated.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> If it's been that way long enough that you're here after having tried a laundry list of things to improve the relationship, it's a serious problem. Your marriage is a hot mess. You really do need to insist on counseling and complete transparency/honesty in that counseling.


I agree. I think that is my next move....the feedback here has been eye opening


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Atlanta,
> Downside to good talkers, is that when feeling anxious - they tend towards nervous talking. I bet that N has learned to just shut up in these conversations about sex or anything else you aren't happy about. She shuts up - you do the talking for both of you.
> 
> Just a guess on my part, but an educated guess at that.
> ...


Agree with most of everything you said. I have tried the straight talk approach and it has never worked. It has been awhile since I last tried it...but if I remember, she was pretty upset, sad, which made me feel bad for wanting to have sex (hard to quantify). I just wrote it off as...well, maybe it will change down the road. I remember the exact circumstances very vividly --- during sex, I just stopped, said, "I can't do this anymore", rolled over went to bed. She was like "Why are you stopping?" 

The next AM she returned from the gym as I was preparing to go the gym and she was apologetic but we still did come with any thing to address the issue. At the time, may have been more a quality vs quantity issue. 

The reason I "stopped" during sex was she made a comment about "Are you almost done?" Or something like that. As we briefly reconciled over the previous nights debacle, she said "I think about this every day". I was even more upset/disappointed after that statement. I thought to myself, if you (N) are thinking about "this" (our terrible sex) "every day" and this is what you have come up with.....UGH. 

She is not a cold person. That is not a fair description. She is just not into sex.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Fozzy said:


> Atlanta--a strong emotional connection is built on a foundation of trust. Trust that you have each others' back, and trust that your partner is looking out for your needs. Do you trust that your wife is looking out for your needs? Does your wife trust you?
> 
> You're familiar with the 5 Love Languages? What is your wife's love language? How do you meet it?


Reflecting on this some....our connection is not terrible. We do trust each other, there are no secrets really. I don't hide my fone, she knows the passcode, or keep secret email addys. I am very transparent in everyday life. She is looking out for most of my needs but one. 

Last night, for example, after a busy night of running kids around, making dinner, bedtime routines, etc...we watched some TV together. We made small talk. It was fine. Talked about the weekend, plans, commitments. Travel next week for me, etc...would have been nice to end the night with some sex, perfect opportunity but I was not up for doing all of the work. So we went to bed.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Fozzy said:


> Threatening your wife isn't being alpha, it's being an a$$hole. Quickest way to empty, emotionless sex, followed by a walkaway wife as soon as she has the opportunity.


I agree with both of you partly. She is not walking away from this...I seriously doubt it at least. Also, I'm already having empty, emotionless sex soo being a little more firm (no pun intended) can't hurt. 

My thoughts were/are...the next time we have sex is to basically ask her to take the lead (or something). I can't completely articulate this but that's my current mindset. Maybe she starts with some oral (which never happens) and then we have more extended foreplay. Then sex.


----------



## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

memdad said:


> ATL - there is an abundance of great insight and advice in this thread. I can relate to much of your struggle, but i want to emphasize the bold lines above. Being a good talker does not make a good communicator. Only recently have i learned to speak in an (almost) consistently authoritative, respectful and concise manner, AND the key part - shut up. It would be very beneficial to pay attention to body language, tone, etc., as others have mentioned. There is definitely an underlying issue here and you need to know what it is before making any firm demands or decisions. I've followed this forum for years and the more details you can provide, the better the advice/insight you will receive. Trauma, boredom, resentment, nice guy issues, etc. or any combination could suggest many different directions to go. But you must identify why she has no desire for sex or sex with you, and the only way to do that is decide what you expect/want/need, what you are willing to do (or not) to achieve those, then sit her down and communicate that in an authoritative, respectful, concise manner. Then ask her thoughts on how your marriage proceeds from there. Do not lead the conversation beyond that, do not interject, do not get defensive, do not take anything personally, only listen, say I understand, etc. etc. etc. If you pay attention to body language, tone, etc., and listen carefully, something will be communicated to you. It may not be much or what you want to hear, but something. And then you go from there. Perhaps you have attempted this, as I had many times. My wife's communication skills outside the home are extraordinary, not so inside the home. Part of that is my tendency to talk often, have an opinion, diagnose and/or fix things, etc. She grew tired of not being heard. By no means am i implying that is you situation. Simply, you hear much more when you are silent.
> 
> I agree with no sex pressure, no sex talk on or before Costa Rica. There are great suggestions here on how to specifically handle it. Process them all and find what works for you. Then sit her down when you return.


Very good feedback. The feedback on the forum has made me rethink I really don't know anything about her sexual past, other than something happened in HS and College that she did not like. I asked her if she was assaulted or raped, she said no. I am thinking that there is a lot more unresolved with that then I ever really considered. She had a few partners before me (after college) but now I am wondering if the sex with them was pretty minimal too? Soo flash forward and you have two adults, one with some trauma and one with no experience prior to marriage -- starting to make sense why there is a struggle. N is a communications director for her company. #irony


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

learner4life said:


> If she doesn't like sex and you stop initiating, she will see this as a relief not a punishment.


Possible but not likely. Having not asked for it in awhile she is sensing I'm pissed. I know this is not healthy but my frustration took over or has taken over and now I'm just rolling along. The forum has helped me identify this as bad but I don't have time right now to sit (again) and have a long talk or just listen. It will be a week or two before that happens. At best.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> Memdad, your assumption here is that she will actually listen and talk and pour her soul. I don't see that happening. She had 20 years. She has been thru the talk part of the program.
> 
> Her thought of the marriage is simply this - another day without sex. Let's go to bed and do it all over again. What do you expect her to say? You will get answers - but not the real answer. After 20years she has it down to an art.
> 
> Think like a lawyer - never ask a question if you don't already have the answer.


There is truth in what you are saying because I am living it...everyday. For example....

We last had sex on 9/10 in the shower. I did not ask for it on 9/9 (had the house alone to ourselves). Before that it was probably late mid August (I think). Back to present day. We have been rolling along with life, and activities, outings, etc..I have been home for lunch most days this month. Have not asked for it and it has not been offered. With some personal travel and work travel approaching the next window could be around my upcoming bday 10/2. Unfortunately Mother Nature will interfere with that plan and it be yet another week. So, now, in reality, because of the various rules and "acceptable" times she is open to -- we are looking at possibly the second week of October. So she has created a "once a month" environment that 100% me. There is nothing required of her during sex -- she is happy to lay there before during after etc...


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

memdad said:


> 1. I highly doubt she bears her soul, but she most likely will communicate something if he pays careful attention. What I am suggesting is for him to speak and follow that up with stern silence, then let her speak. And I'm not convinced he's done that yet, for a myriad of reasons. If she doesn't listen and shuts down completely, that is communicating she doesn't care what he feels. Perhaps you are correct, and if so, he needs to see that reaction in its entirety.
> 
> 2. He doesn't have to ask the question "why do you not like sex or sex with me?" Directly to get the answer to that question, but he does need to know the answer before he can make any conclusions on how to proceed. So like a lawyer, he needs the answer so he can ask the question.
> 
> ...


Correct I can do better -- I need to listen or observe more. Agree.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Capricious said:


> I have not read all the replies so I apologise if this has been asked/answered already. Is your wife on any hormonal contraception?
> I was on the pill a few years before having children. My sex drive was really really low. Once I stopped the pill (to conceive) I noticed a huge difference. I never went back on the pill after our first was born (he is 10 now).
> We have been together for 20 yrs (married 15) and have a very active sex life. We too have 3 kids (ages 10,6,3).
> Could there be hormones affecting her desire/drive?
> ...


NOPE. No BC. Self Esteem should be great -- she just got promoted to VP, in good shape, has a pretty good circle of friends, etc..I try to make sure all her of her needs are met outside of the bedroom in general. Sounds wierd but she has a good life.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Cowboy2 said:


> You have a lot of advice to sift through, great thing about this forum. Use what resonates with you, dump the rest.
> 
> Bottom line is this will stay the same unless your actions inspire change. Your wife is in her comfort zone. She gets everything she wants in the current status quo. You don't. How will you change that? And btw, doing more around the house to "help more" expecting that this will earn you point towards sex does not work.


I do have a lot to digest. Planning on reading and taking some notes this weekend. Also going to read a book someone mentioned about the married man sex guide. And doing more around the house def. won't lead to more sex. That I know.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I agree with both of you partly. She is not walking away from this...I seriously doubt it at least. Also, I'm already having empty, emotionless sex soo being a little more firm (no pun intended) can't hurt.
> 
> *My thoughts were/are...the next time we have sex is to basically ask her to take the lead (or something). I can't completely articulate this but that's my current mindset. Maybe she starts with some oral (which never happens) and then we have more extended foreplay. Then sex.*


Bad plan. Asking her to take the lead on something she already doesn't like doing is going to get you lackluster results, at best. You need to direct the encounter. Sitting back and hoping your wife will do what you want to do ain't gonna work out. 

Think about a blindfold. Seriously. It isolates her senses, forcing her to focus more on sensation and less on everything her eyes are telling her are bad about the situation. It also puts you in charge of directing the encounter. Don't abuse the trust, but also don't waste the opportunity and you may find that she enjoys it more.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Reflecting on this some....our connection is not terrible. We do trust each other, there are no secrets really. I don't hide my fone, she knows the passcode, or keep secret email addys. I am very transparent in everyday life. She is looking out for most of my needs but one.
> 
> Last night, for example, after a busy night of running kids around, making dinner, bedtime routines, etc...we watched some TV together. We made small talk. It was fine. Talked about the weekend, plans, commitments. Travel next week for me, etc...would have been nice to end the night with some sex, perfect opportunity but I was not up for doing all of the work. So we went to bed.


Not precisely what I was getting at. I'm not talking about trusting that your partner isn't screwing the poolboy or gambling away your paycheck (although that's important too). I'm talking about the peace that comes with knowing that you don't have to struggle and prompt your partner to meet your needs. Does she trust you to meet her emotional needs? Do you know what those needs are?


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Fozzy said:


> Bad plan. Asking her to take the lead on something she already doesn't like doing is going to get you lackluster results, at best. You need to direct the encounter. Sitting back and hoping your wife will do what you want to do ain't gonna work out.
> 
> Think about a blindfold. Seriously. It isolates her senses, forcing her to focus more on sensation and less on everything her eyes are telling her are bad about the situation. It also puts you in charge of directing the encounter. Don't abuse the trust, but also don't waste the opportunity and you may find that she enjoys it more.


Ok..there is not much she likes soo that might be short lived but intriguing...


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Fozzy said:


> Not precisely what I was getting at. I'm not talking about trusting that your partner isn't screwing the poolboy or gambling away your paycheck (although that's important too). I'm talking about the peace that comes with knowing that you don't have to struggle and prompt your partner to meet your needs. Does she trust you to meet her emotional needs? Do you know what those needs are?


Hmmm, I don't know.


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## memdad (Sep 23, 2016)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Very good feedback. The feedback on the forum has made me rethink I really don't know anything about her sexual past, other than something happened in HS and College that she did not like. I asked her if she was assaulted or raped, she said no. I am thinking that there is a lot more unresolved with that then I ever really considered. She had a few partners before me (after college) but now I am wondering if the sex with them was pretty minimal too? Soo flash forward and you have two adults, one with some trauma and one with no experience prior to marriage -- starting to make sense why there is a struggle. N is a communications director for her company. #irony




Ironically, my wife holds the same position at her company. Super performer at work, tries to be super mom and home administrator, always there for friends, resume a mile long full of boards, volunteering, etc. does that sound familiar?

I highly suspect trauma somewhere. If that is the case, i would suggest accepting that things most likely will never change. It's certainly not impossible, but that acceptance will buffer some of your internal emotion and frustration. It's hard to explain, but I presume she is highly intuitive and even though you may not be 'connecting', she senses the disturbance yet has know earthly idea what to do with it. As others have said, do not suggest trauma to her. Ever. Or that there is something wrong with her. Your approach to take some time before this is discussed again is a good one. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

memdad said:


> Ironically, my wife holds the same position at her company. Super performer at work, tries to be super mom and home administrator, always there for friends, resume a mile long full of boards, volunteering, etc. does that sound familiar?
> 
> I highly suspect trauma somewhere. If that is the case, i would suggest accepting that things most likely will never change. It's certainly not impossible, but that acceptance will buffer some of your internal emotion and frustration. It's hard to explain, but I presume she is highly intuitive and even though you may not be 'connecting', she senses the disturbance yet has know earthly idea what to do with it. As others have said, do not suggest trauma to her. Ever. Or that there is something wrong with her. Your approach to take some time before this is discussed again is a good one.
> 
> ...


YES. You are spot on. She senses something is "UP" but either does not want to hear about it or just biding till she leaves on her trip and me on my trip etc...and then she knows it will be mid October. She is home free till then I guess.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Ok..there is not much she likes soo that might be short lived but intriguing...


Certainly not a guarantee by any means, but a funny thing often happens with a blindfold. It allows a person to fool their brain into thinking that they're no longer responsible for letting all that awful sex stuff happen---which can then allow them to actually enjoy it. It helps release the guilt and shame that's built into it for them.

Again, your mileage may vary--just something to consider.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Atlanta,
You would benefit a lot from individual counseling. You ought to find a therapist.

And your ego protection reflex is quietly running in the background. Watch how this works:
- If she had a good/great sexual relationship before you - that means maybe she could have one with you. But it sure is unflattering by contrast.
- If however, she had bad experiences with the prior boyfriends - that is a negative indicator - because it means she's never had a good sexual relationship. But it is easier on your ego - because it implies this is her issue.

Go look at how you framed that question. It's obvious which outcome you prefer. 

And asking a partner who already dislikes sex - to make it even better for you - by starting with oral - will come across as selfish. I'm not saying you can't require a certain level of engagement - because you can. If N just lies there - stop. 

--------
Me personally - I'd rather find out what her best sexual partner and experiences were like and find out why.








Marriednatlanta said:


> YES. You are spot on. She senses something is "UP" but either does not want to hear about it or just biding till she leaves on her trip and me on my trip etc...and then she knows it will be mid October. She is home free till then I guess.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> NOPE. No BC. Self Esteem should be great -- she just got promoted to VP, in good shape, has a pretty good circle of friends, etc..I try to make sure all her of her needs are met outside of the bedroom in general. Sounds wierd but she has a good life.


Great. So you won't feel guilty and won't be paying much in alimony or child support 

What you need is - in her terms - is a paradigm shift. Not negotiate once a month to twice a month. Give it another few years and once a month will look good. And by the time you retire you'll be way pi$$ed of with her to enjoy anything. 

(I do get paid to predict the future  )


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Fozzy said:


> Certainly not a guarantee by any means, but a funny thing often happens with a blindfold. It allows a person to fool their brain into thinking that they're no longer responsible for letting all that awful sex stuff happen---which can then allow them to actually enjoy it. It helps release the guilt and shame that's built into it for them.
> 
> Again, your mileage may vary--just something to consider.


I can see this working....and we have a blindfold too. Thanks!


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Atlanta,
> You would benefit a lot from individual counseling. You ought to find a therapist.
> 
> And your ego protection reflex is quietly running in the background. Watch how this works:
> ...


Good advice. Need to find the right timing to ask some questions and just listen. She really hates this topic and wishes it would go away entirely but that leaves us having no sex ever. Or just ****ty sex once a month.


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## memdad (Sep 23, 2016)

Fozzy said:


> Bad plan. Asking her to take the lead on something she already doesn't like doing is going to get you lackluster results, at best. You need to direct the encounter. Sitting back and hoping your wife will do what you want to do ain't gonna work out.
> 
> Think about a blindfold. Seriously. It isolates her senses, forcing her to focus more on sensation and less on everything her eyes are telling her are bad about the situation. It also puts you in charge of directing the encounter. Don't abuse the trust, but also don't waste the opportunity and you may find that she enjoys it more.


Agree that asking her to take the lead is a bad plan. If trauma is present, blindfold could backfire. Horribly. I speak from experience.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

memdad said:


> Agree that asking her to take the lead is a bad plan. If trauma is present, blindfold could backfire. Horribly. I speak from experience.


True enough. Trauma takes all the normal rules and responses and tosses them out the window.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

memdad said:


> Agree that asking her to take the lead is a bad plan. If trauma is present, blindfold could backfire. Horribly. I speak from experience.


It's never easy anymore. Ok. Thanks.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Marriednatlanta said:


> What is "180"? Not going the divorce route. Will buy my own s-x toys (for myself) before I do that.


And this is not going to work. Are you me, 20 years ago? "Divorce is not an option". Well then you just gave away any and all power you have to change the dynamics and to save the marriage. You can never build the marriage you want.

I've had this nagging feeling this is where you were going with things.

The discussions of taking sex off the table on vacation just make things worse, not better. Sex is your wife's problem. Literally, it is where she has large problems going back to her formative years. You deciding to not pressure her for sex means she gets a positive reinforcement for not having sex with you. She gets to avoid the internal turmoil of having sex and she avoids feeling guilty for not having sex.

I bet she's either hinted at or will at some point that you may be cheating. Because she knows down deep that men need sex to feel happy in a relationship. And she'll know she's not living up to her end of the marriage contract. Remember your vows? "To love, honor, and cherish. To Have and To Hold, forsaking all others....". What do you think it means "To Have and To Hold"? That's having sex, engaging in physical contact, and providing emotional support when needed.

Normal techniques of pulling a low-desire spouse back into a sexual relationship will never work with the sex abuse or rape victim. She has to deal with what is inside her. You can't do it for her. And you can't even directly tell her all this. She needs to come to the conclusion herself that she needs to address the issues.

Her deepest fear is that she is as dirty and undesirable as she thinks she is. So if you tell her she is "broken" or "damaged" it is unbearable to her. And that is what she hears when you say she needs to go to therapy. The best you can do is say "We need to figure this out via therapy". She'll still be scared and will likely do everything possible to avoid even couples therapy because she fears her secrets being discovered. You have to approach this as a team thing, where there is some dysfunction with the team and so you both need to figure out how you can both work on it.

She may buy into it. She may start with the therapy and then keep going. Or she may resist at every opportunity.

The failure rate is very high, unfortunately, with a long term marriage and decades of her trauma being suppressed.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Thor said:


> And this is not going to work. Are you me, 20 years ago? "Divorce is not an option". Well then you just gave away any and all power you have to change the dynamics and to save the marriage. You can never build the marriage you want.
> 
> I've had this nagging feeling this is where you were going with things.
> 
> ...


Listen to Thor. Lots of clear-headed analysis here.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Having not asked for it in awhile she is sensing I'm pissed. I know this is not healthy but my frustration took over or has taken over and now I'm just rolling along.


I disagree. It IS healthy to be pissed when you aren't getting any sex. It is not healthy to hold it in and pretend you aren't pissed if you are. She may not like it. If she doesn't like it, she can do something about it. Like have sex with you. If she doesn't feel like having sex with you, she could communicate what you need to do to help her be in the mood. If there isn't anything you can do to help her be in the mood, then you are going to continue to be pissed and both of you should consider whether staying married to each other is in either of your best interests.



> It will be a week or two before that happens. At best.


Sex? Or a good time for the talk? Look, it has been a long marriage and the sex has been bad what sounds like the entire time. Was she ever enthusiastic? Even before the kids? If it has been bad the whole time then another week or 2 without sex and without having the talk is a drop in the bucket. But is there REALLY no time for the talk? Or is it that you are procrastinating because you fear the talk will be pointless and then you will face a hard decision you don't want to have to make? So you are avoiding the talk so you can avoid dealing with the inevitable consequences of having the talk? Only you know the truth.

Agree with the others. Trauma seems a high probability. That makes chances for recovery much lower. Stinks for both of you.


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## memdad (Sep 23, 2016)

Marriednatlanta said:


> It's never easy anymore. Ok. Thanks.


It isn't easy, but I think you are on the right path. I hesitate to keep beating the trauma drum, since it may not be the case. If it is, however, a false move could be very detrimental. Don't do a 180, disrupt, or implement anything just yet. As mem2020 said, individual counseling is a good idea. You seem to have a good demeanor, hobbies, and positive outlook. Maintain those and begin to formulate a plan of action regarding your wife. Do not rush it. Let sex go for the time being. Your wife will sense it. What she does in the meantime should reveal some vital information.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Thor said:


> And this is not going to work. Are you me, 20 years ago? "Divorce is not an option". Well then you just gave away any and all power you have to change the dynamics and to save the marriage. You can never build the marriage you want.
> 
> I've had this nagging feeling this is where you were going with things.
> 
> ...


This is great great advice. I don't want to get divorced over this...I want it to get better. It seems some members have used the nuclear option or talked about it...I'm not there yet. Still have Costa Rica too, naive, but, I was hoping we could make some headway on this now and then Costa would be soo much better. This is the mind of a married man. I assume some can identify? 

She has NEVER ever even sniffed around me cheating on her. That would be the reverse nuclear option IMO. I would be soo pissed if she ever did --- I have never ever done anything or given her any reason to ever suspect. My time is 100% accounted for that I assure you. She knows that too. She knows that I am the one running kids around, dealing with house issues, etc...not even one second to do that. I could go on and on (and I will) for a minute. 

I recently won/awarded a kayak of work as a service anniversary (also 20 years). It is inflatable. I got it 3 months ago. It is still in the box. I bought a new three wood last year, have never hit it. I like to MTB. Have not ridden in year. I'm just saying that I am present in our life. Needed to say that. 

Someone suggested earlier that I could start doing more things for me (Kayaking, MTB, maybe a little golf) as way to respond to her lack of commitment to have sex -- that is definetly on the table. 

The TEAM concept I can definetly identify with. We both have issues, let's get them addressed. I have suggested we might benefit from some counseling, not specific sex therapy. She is loath to even consider it. For now. I could go to the nuclear option on that topic. "I am going, with, or without you."


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Agree with most of everything you said. I have tried the straight talk approach and it has never worked. It has been awhile since I last tried it...but if I remember, she was pretty upset, sad, which made me feel bad for wanting to have sex (hard to quantify). I just wrote it off as...well, maybe it will change down the road. I remember the exact circumstances very vividly --- during sex, I just stopped, said, "I can't do this anymore", rolled over went to bed. She was like "Why are you stopping?"
> 
> The next AM she returned from the gym as I was preparing to go the gym and she was apologetic but we still did come with any thing to address the issue. At the time, may have been more a quality vs quantity issue.
> 
> ...


*This *is where scheduling sex *can* be a big help. If she knows when it is going to happen, she doesn't have to think about it the rest of the time.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@Marriednatlanta, I think setting up therapy should be your immediate goal but in the meantime, I would suggest you read Passionate Marriage by Dr. Schnarch (sp?). It's not a step by step 'how to' book but it is eye opening. Word of warning... some of the sections are long winded.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Marriednatlanta said:


> This forum has helped me focus more on what could be a root problem. I don't think it's me (being honest). I could be wrong. I have worked tirelessly at trying to make for an environment that she feels "safe" in to be intimate. Lowered the expectations. Did not ask for anything out of ordinary. Did not get anything that's for sure.


You made it safe for her to not have intimacy with you, so she didn't.

Normally I'd recommend you make it very unsafe for her to not have sex or emotional intimacy, but that would be counter productive with a CSA/rape victim. Normally the woman would desire sex and emotional intimacy and would respond to your attempts to make it safe for her. You keep trying to change things so that she will respond, but this won't work with her because of her trauma.

I suggest you read the book "Haunted Marriage" by Barshinger. It can be a bit difficult to find sometimes, though you may find it on his own website. Anyhow it is worth you reading. I recommend you not show it to your wife yet.

Of course there are things you can do to be a better spouse, because we are all imperfect. But you being a better spouse isn't going to magically flip her sex switch on. You should read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Glover. Be a better husband and better man for yourself. Either she will respond or she won't, but that is not the goal. Do it for yourself and your own future.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> I disagree. It IS healthy to be pissed when you aren't getting any sex. It is not healthy to hold it in and pretend you aren't pissed if you are. She may not like it. If she doesn't like it, she can do something about it. Like have sex with you. If she doesn't feel like having sex with you, she could communicate what you need to do to help her be in the mood. If there isn't anything you can do to help her be in the mood, then you are going to continue to be pissed and both of you should consider whether staying married to each other is in either of your best interests.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


NO sex for two weeks or more. Sex started ok. Just went downhill slowly. Even before kids it was struggling. I am probably stalling bc I hate the thought of the outcome I'v every time I have brought it up. Me feeing terribly for reminding her how terrible it is. I will say the only difference now is I am prepared to say -- we/I are going to counseling. I am can not figure this out on my own.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

The answer is not to sacrifice every single thing you love, just to be "present." a human being needs hobbies and "me" time away from everything sometimes, as long as it's within reason. 

How can you be your best self if you have no dedicated time to work on you? 

And you can't "fix" her sex issues. Only she can, with therapy, if she wants to. What you can do is support that process, but she has to do the work. The reality is that she may not want to and she may just not like sex with you, or at all.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> The ultimate ego protection move is to focus on something from twenty plus years ago instead of the present.


Disagree, but also agree.

I believe she has deep significant emotional trauma from something she has vaguely described as a bad experience in high school. CSA/rape victims lie, cover up, and minimize the events, so while it may have happened in high school, I would not be at all surprised if it was something at another time, or multiple events (now OP has alluded to maybe something in college).

Anyhow, I believe this is the root of her behavior. He has described, and keeps hitting new, classic behaviors and psychology of CSA/rape trauma. I could be wrong, and it could be she had a physically and emotionally abusive upbringing. It could be she is truly (hormonally) very low sex drive. It could be her brain is just not wired to engage in emotional intimacy.

Nothing with her is going to change unless and until she effectively deals with her trauma. All the normal things we come across here and on other relationship resources will be useless, presuming she does have a trauma history.

Where I agree with you is that OP should take the approach with her that the root causes don't matter. What does matter is that the marriage is badly dysfunctional and very near to ending. She has to become motivated to at least attempt to address what is really going on. She will avoid it, she will try to derail it, and she may ultimately refuse to participate. This is not uncommon.

Either the marriage is or is not acceptable to OP. If it is not, it is not. Either she does or does not step up to effectively deal with whatever it is that she needs to deal with.

Certainly OP has work to do, too. Dealing with CSA/rape is like dealing with infidelity. It can be patched up and made to look like some semblance of normality, but if the past is not dealt with it will ultimately fatally poison the future.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Marriednatlanta said:


> "How is your interaction? Lots of hugs, kisses, casual touches as you pass each other, laughter, sharing of personal thoughts and feelings, whispered secrets as you cuddle before sleep, etc?"
> 
> Uh no. Lol. All business. Efficient. Probably another barrier in our communication.





MJJEAN said:


> That's...bad. Seriously, you go through your days together with no random gestures of affection, no physical, mental, or emotional intimacy? Good God, man, why are you still there? You do know there are women who actually like sex and are willing and able to demonstrate love freely, right?
> 
> Jeeze, I'd go batsh!tcrazy if I had to live like that. I love my husband and we've been a couple for 16 years, married for 13 of those, 3 kids, house, dogs, etc. If he were to stop the above AND the sex sucked or was nonexistent, I'd have to seriously consider filing and moving on.


MnA, you probably don't realize just how dysfunctional your marriage is. MJJEAN's reply shows the norm.

Every post you make is of yet another classic behavior of someone with deep trauma history. Note that the actual event(s) may end up sounding fairly minor to you and I. What is experienced by the victim as trauma depends on many factors. We can process the events with an experienced adult viewpoint, whereas the victim may have been a child. Also the circumstances prior to and after the event may play an even larger part in their trauma. Whatever you may learn of her experiences don't downplay them or give an indication you think she has over reacted in some way. You aren't her therapist and can never be. If she does volunteer information to you either in private or in therapy session, be as neutral as possible, while showing your support for her. It would be ok to say you're sorry she experienced it, that you want to support her in any way that she would find helpful. That's about it. Let her and the therapist make specific requests for any further comments or actions on your part.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I really don't know anything about her sexual past, other than something happened in HS and College that she did not like. I asked her if she was assaulted or raped, she said no. I am thinking that there is a lot more unresolved with that then I ever really considered. She had a few partners before me (after college) but now I am wondering if the sex with them was pretty minimal too? Soo flash forward and you have two adults, one with some trauma and one with no experience prior to marriage -- starting to make sense why there is a struggle. N is a communications director for her company. #irony


I asked my wife at least 3 times about rape and CSA. She denied it every time. Then 29 years into marriage when I finally had the talk with her that either we fix the marriage or end it, she bursts into tears and tells me she was sexually abused as a grade schooler.

Chances are you know little to nothing in terms of the truth about her sexual history. I don't say that to get you upset or angry. Just be aware that there are likely many secrets out there, some of which you may become aware of and others you never will know about.

Your virginity is a significant player in all of this. Perhaps the largest factors would be 1) you don't have good perspective on what is normal in a relationship, and 2) fear of leaving the one and only person you've had a sexual relationship with. I don't have time this weekend to spend more time on the interwebs but next week perhaps we can visit this topic. Think about how you view the specialness of this relationship, and what divorce means to you. Think about how you view your wife being sexual with you in terms of what it means about you. What do you think or perhaps fear about your own sexual prowess, and how might that color your view of a divorce?

ETA: My wife is a psychologist. #irony!


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> Atlanta,
> You would benefit a lot from individual counseling. You ought to find a therapist.
> 
> And your ego protection reflex is quietly running in the background. Watch how this works:
> ...


Trauma can, and does, allow both that she had good prior sexual relationships yet it does not reflect badly on him that the marriage is a bad sexual relationship.

The CSA/rape victim typically moves towards the extremes, either towards being prudish or being promiscuous. If she goes towards promiscuity she may engage in sex at a younger age, and more adventurously than is typical. She uses sex in the relationship to get all kinds of rewards. It doesn't mean she is a hooker or porn star by any means, just that she was more sexual than average.

Yet in a marriage she becomes more and more unable to be sexual. Sexual trauma is one of the top 3 risk factors for infidelity (though I have seen nothing on this thread to make me concerned OP's wife is cheating) because the woman remembers the hot sex in her previous relationships and seeks it out again. Within the marriage she has all kinds of psychological barriers to sex.

So it is not uncommon for the issues to be primarily related to the woman's trauma history yet it did not cause poor sexual relationships prior to marriage.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Thor said:


> Disagree, but also agree.
> 
> I believe she has deep significant emotional trauma from something she has vaguely described as a bad experience in high school. CSA/rape victims lie, cover up, and minimize the events, so while it may have happened in high school, I would not be at all surprised if it was something at another time, or multiple events (now OP has alluded to maybe something in college).
> 
> ...


Whatever happened was not in her childhood. It was HS and maybe college. And I may have to allow for LD. That is another possibility I have not allowed for. I don't think it was Rape either. As this comes into focus....I am thinking it was limited experience. In fact, maybe she only had one partner, in HS. She could have embellished her history since I was V. Keep in mind this is stuff we talked about over 20 years ago and not since. Soo my memory might be a little fuzzy.


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## memdad (Sep 23, 2016)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Whatever happened was not in her childhood. It was HS and maybe college. And I may have to allow for LD. That is another possibility I have not allowed for. I don't think it was Rape either. As this comes into focus....I am thinking it was limited experience. In fact, maybe she only had one partner, in HS. She could have embellished her history since I was V. Keep in mind this is stuff we talked about over 20 years ago and not since. Soo my memory might be a little fuzzy.


Trauma doesn't necessarily mean CSA/rape. It can be a result of many different events, with varied levels of severity. Whatever it is, she has to be the one that opens up, comes to terms, and ultimately does the work to improve. What she needs from you is safety and trust. The challenge is finding the balance of providing this while not foregoing your needs or allowing the patterns to continue, ad infinitum.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Thor said:


> Normally I'd recommend you make it very unsafe for her to not have sex or emotional intimacy, but that would be counter productive with a CSA/rape victim. Normally the woman would desire sex and emotional intimacy and would respond to your attempts to make it safe for her. You keep trying to change things so that she will respond, but this won't work with her because of her trauma.


Here is the hard part when your spouse is an unrecovered victim of CSA/rape. You have to eventually get the following message across:

I know you wish I wouldn't ask you to do the hard, painful and lengthy process of recovering. I love you and I wish I did not have to ask. But I love you, so I have to ask, because otherwise our marriage doesn't work for me. I wish that weren't true, but after all this time of trying to love you despite the wall between us, we both know I can't. So you have a choice to make. Keep me, or keep the wall. The wall you built to separate yourself from your sexuality. Between yourself and what happened to you. I know the stuff on the other side of the wall is painful and scary. But if you want me to stay, you have to open the gate. If you do, I will be here to help you as best I can. I will be patient. I realize you may lash out at me when the process is particularly painful, and I will not hold that against you. I realize that we may have to open up more space between us to give you space to heal. I realize that for a while we may have sex less frequently and less intensely than we have in the past. or, for a time, not at all. I can endure that and will cherish you more for doing this for us and for me.

I also understand that you may decide it is not worth it. That I am not worth it. That keeping yourself safe is more important than keeping me. If that is the case, then I will be sad, but I understand. I may not be worth enough for you to brave the horrors of the "bad place" to keep me. That is your right and your decision to make. Let me know what you decide. I'll be over here waiting for a little while longer. But if you don't answer, eventually I won't be here waiting any more. I love you. But I can't keep doing this to either of us.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

I mentioned earlier that her sexuality may be largely unexplored. If she was relatively inexperienced when you married and you had no experience, it could be she simply doesn't enjoy sex as she has previously experienced it and has no interest in sex based on what she thinks sex is like for a woman in general or her in particular.

Her trauma in HS and college might simply have been a partner asking her for something more than vanilla. For an inexperienced woman who has been sheltered, some sex acts that seem normal to the rest of us are shocking. 

Perhaps she felt a passionate attraction for one of her previous partners and was betrayed or abandoned. She could have repressed her sexuality to avoid the pain of possibe future betrayal. Maybe her ability to bond to a sex partner was damaged by such an experience.

Of course, there may have been no trauma. She could be one of many men and women who are asexual, but have sex with SO's in order to procreate and because it is expected of them.

She may also have decided to marry a man she was not sexually attracted to thinking that sex wasn't nearly as important as other aspects of a relationship. So many do.

If she's asexual, there is nothing that can be done. It's just how she's wired. If she isn't attracted to you physically, there is nothing that can be done. Physical attraction is something that is either there or it is not. If it's physical or emotional trauma, YOU can't fix it for her. She has to be willing to seek help and do the work involved.

I'm 41. As DH put it, we're on the back 9 of life. First half is over. This is the age where friends start having heart attacks, surgeries to remove organs, get cancer, etc. Makes you realize life is short. How do you want to spend the time you have left? When you envision the next 20 years, assume nothing changes in the marriage. Assume you are still having monthly duty sex. Assume there are still no hugs, cuddles, kisses, intimate and personal conversations, and that you are still basically living like friends and domestic business partners. Is that acceptable to you?

I feel for your whole family. You are clearly unhappy. Your wife doesn't seem any happier. Your kids example of marriage seems cold and affectionless and they will emulate that in their own future relationships. Not a good scene for anyone.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

tech-novelist said:


> *This *is where scheduling sex *can* be a big help. If she knows when it is going to happen, she doesn't have to think about it the rest of the time.


But it makes MUCH easier to plan against it


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@john117: But scheduling also helps to eliminate the smokescreen as to the precise nature of the problem. If the LD's main problem is anxiety and tension over when sex will occur, and not wanting to be bothered all the time for sex, then scheduling is helpful. If the LD's main problem is not wanting sex to occur at all, then scheduling is counter-productive. From the HD's perspective, helpful to know what you are dealing with.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> But it makes MUCH easier to plan against it


Trust me the scheduling will never work. It's been tried. Officially, unofficially etc...


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> I mentioned earlier that her sexuality may be largely unexplored. If she was relatively inexperienced when you married and you had no experience, it could be she simply doesn't enjoy sex as she has previously experienced it and has no interest in sex based on what she thinks sex is like for a woman in general or her in particular.
> 
> Her trauma in HS and college might simply have been a partner asking her for something more than vanilla. For an inexperienced woman who has been sheltered, some sex acts that seem normal to the rest of us are shocking.
> 
> ...


That's a depressing reality. Makes me want to double down on the therapy etc....


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thor,

You are making a huge assumption. 

I have read plenty of threads by LD women. Enough to know that in many cases it has nothing to do with CSA, and everything to do with key compatibility issues.

Many of these women have learned that it's better to avoid sex than speak the truth. 

And I routinely read posts here - that say: If my wife actually SAID she wasn't attracted to me - I'd immediately divorce her.

These are guys who have plausible deniability. Their wives rarely sleep with them - but since those same women haven't said: I am not attracted to YOU. 

The guys can pretend it is something else. 




Thor said:


> You made it safe for her to not have intimacy with you, so she didn't.
> 
> Normally I'd recommend you make it very unsafe for her to not have sex or emotional intimacy, but that would be counter productive with a CSA/rape victim. Normally the woman would desire sex and emotional intimacy and would respond to your attempts to make it safe for her. You keep trying to change things so that she will respond, but this won't work with her because of her trauma.
> 
> ...


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> Thor,
> 
> You are making a huge assumption.
> 
> ...


My huge assumption is based on literally every description OP writes is in line with the classic CSA/rape victim. Each new revelation he posts here is yet another indicator of trauma. LD don't turn their head away during sex, which his wife does. That's just one of many many examples of what he's written. He's written that she has alluded to at least 2 bad experiences, one during high school and the other college. While those may not be rape events, there does seem to be some trauma related to sex in those relationships.

I could be wrong and there is no trauma. But so far I've read nothing from OP which in any way is inconsistent with it.

Given this possibility, I think he needs to be aware of the implications as he puts together and executes a strategy. The typical MMSL/Alpha/confrontational approaches are likely to be counterproductive at best. Holdingontoit's post above is the direction OP should be thinking. Approaching her with kind firmness. I would even suggest being less direct in making it about her. I would approach her as WE the team are broken. But I think he also needs a firm boundary that things MUST get better, and it is not acceptable the way things are now.

He needs to lead the horse to the water, but carefully. Ultimately either the marriage is or is not acceptable to OP. That really is the bottom line. Whatever her issues may be is not important, only that she recognize a need to make meaningful efforts to overcome her issues. And when they get into MC or he gets into IC, he will find things he needs to make meaningful efforts to deal with in himself.

Gentle nudging isn't going to transform her. Nor is him doing the dishes more often or going to the gym more frequently. Good MC is necessary, and if there is any trauma history then she will need good, long term, IC.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM2020 said:


> Thor,
> 
> You are making a huge assumption.
> 
> ...


Yeah, the board groupthink here has come to the definitive conclusion that this is a case of CSA. Plausible, yes. Absolutely the explanation, I'm not convinced. Only way you can get to the bottom of it is to have you both engage in meaningful counseling. Hate to be a broken record, but you have to set your mindset on delivering consequences if she rejects / ignores this counseling request. Put some thought into it and share with us some consequences for her that you would be able to implement if she decides not to participate in counseling.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> And I routinely read posts here - that say: If my wife actually SAID she wasn't attracted to me - I'd immediately divorce her.
> 
> These are guys who have plausible deniability. Their wives rarely sleep with them - but since those same women haven't said: I am not attracted to YOU.
> 
> The guys can pretend it is something else.


I know a number of men who blamed themselves for the lack of sex. Their wives were quite sexual with previous boyfriends but then after the wedding or after the first child the sex disappeared. So the wife is obviously capable of being very sexual, just not with her husband. Many men are mystified by this, perhaps assuming the old stories of sexless marriages are true, and not to expect anything more.

Nice Guys who marry CSA/rape survivors get into a Perfect Storm this way, even more so if they were a virgin when they met the woman. Toxic shame rises up in him. He thinks he doesn't truly deserve a good sex life, or he thinks the dysfunctions are due to his lack of sex appeal or sexual ability. So he doesn't stand up for his needs while the decades of sexless marriage pass by.

Marriages with CSA/rape survivors have entirely different rules and dynamics than other marriages. Regular logic and techniques don't work.

OP can and should avail himself of all the typical resources. NMMNG, MMSL, HNHN, 5LL, etc etc etc. There's no reason he should not look at himself so as to make improvements.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Thor said:


> My huge assumption is based on literally every description OP writes is in line with the classic CSA/rape victim. Each new revelation he posts here is yet another indicator of trauma. LD don't turn their head away during sex, which his wife does. That's just one of many many examples of what he's written. He's written that she has alluded to at least 2 bad experiences, one during high school and the other college. While those may not be rape events, there does seem to be some trauma related to sex in those relationships.
> 
> I could be wrong and there is no trauma. But so far I've read nothing from OP which in any way is inconsistent with it.
> 
> ...



Excellent input. I am going with the "team" "we" approach. Ultimatum(s) are not going to work, nor do I want to start there. I am here bc I have a Costa Rica trip fast approaching (I just booked our activities ) and I want to have sex more than 1x a month. I have a lot of work to do and I let it get here. Some remaining questions I need to understand some more...

* Her history, details, not an interrogation but some more information
* Her desires (fantasies?) 

I think I start with my personal background and that way she does not feel attacked.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MarriedTex said:


> Yeah, the board groupthink here has come to the definitive conclusion that this is a case of CSA. Plausible, yes. Absolutely the explanation, I'm not convinced. Only way you can get to the bottom of it is to have you both engage in meaningful counseling. Hate to be a broken record, but you have to set your mindset on delivering consequences if she rejects / ignores this counseling request. Put some thought into it and share with us some consequences for her that you would be able to implement if she decides not to participate in counseling.


Ok. I will mull this over this weekend. I am leaning away from the CSA (a lot). I probably need to grow some balls once I say I/we are going to counseling.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> I have read plenty of threads by LD women. Enough to know that in many cases it has nothing to do with CSA, and everything to do with key compatibility issues.
> Many of these women have learned that it's better to avoid sex than speak the truth.
> And I routinely read posts here - that say: If my wife actually SAID she wasn't attracted to me - I'd immediately divorce her.
> These are guys who have plausible deniability. Their wives rarely sleep with them - but since those same women haven't said: I am not attracted to YOU.
> The guys can pretend it is something else.


Might be merely that she is not attracted to him and does not want to admit it. Might be rape/CSA. The "cure" is very different and the burden falls differently. But in either case, any hope to resolve MnA's complaint requires her to admit the truth. Which, after 20 years of lying, hiding and stonewalling, she is likely to refuse to do until he proves willing to destabilize. He can try to make a safe space for her to admit the unpleasant truth. But I doubt safety alone will motivate her to unburden herself. Having a counsellor present might help her to feel safe. Counsellor can help advance the discussion.

Key question for MnA is the same: are you willing to divorce over it? If not, she will likely continue to hide and deflect. His choice how long to tolerate the hiding and deflection. His answer might be "the rest of my life".


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thor and those who liked this post,

While much of the analysis below is solid, the final bit is confusing to me. 

Why do you say this marriage is close to ending? What has Atlanta said to make you think that?

Because IMO, he's been very clear that he isn't anywhere near even beginning to think that way.

So - that - feels like pure projection to me. His wife is a proxy for other people's wives - these are angry people who wished they had divorced. So they project the idea of divorce onto Atlanta despite his explicit statements to the contrary.






Thor said:


> Disagree, but also agree.
> 
> I believe she has deep significant emotional trauma from something she has vaguely described as a bad experience in high school. CSA/rape victims lie, cover up, and minimize the events, so while it may have happened in high school, I would not be at all surprised if it was something at another time, or multiple events (now OP has alluded to maybe something in college).
> 
> ...


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Thor and those who liked this post,
> 
> While much of the analysis below is solid, the final bit is confusing to me.
> 
> ...


Yeah, far far from over. The request for counseling or if she notices me going to bed earlier, continuing to get in better shape, going on a few MTB rides or kayaking alone, etc...she will do the math. But I owe it to her to clearly tell her what the ISSUE is. AGAIN. Either before Costa, probably not during, definitely after.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> @john117: But scheduling also helps to eliminate the smokescreen as to the precise nature of the problem. If the LD's main problem is anxiety and tension over when sex will occur, and not wanting to be bothered all the time for sex, then scheduling is helpful. If the LD's main problem is not wanting sex to occur at all, then scheduling is counter-productive. From the HD's perspective, helpful to know what you are dealing with.


When we tried to schedule, it was fairly contrived, and she got very good at manufacturing excuses so... Took me a little to catch on that she was using intimacy as a means to other goals, and eventually this backfired on her...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Trust me the scheduling will never work. It's been tried. Officially, unofficially etc...


Q.E.D.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Yeah, far far from over. The request for counseling or if she notices me going to bed earlier, continuing to get in better shape, going on a few MTB rides or kayaking alone, etc...she will do the math. But I owe it to her to clearly tell her what the ISSUE is. AGAIN. Either before Costa, probably not during, definitely after.


You can kayak the Mississippi all the way down to NOLA and say hi to my buddies there, return via MTB on I-55 to Chicago and still her math won't change. You can tell her about the issue too, and she'll stonewall you a bit then back to ho hum land.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> Q.E.D.


QED???


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> My thoughts were/are...the next time we have sex is to basically ask her to take the lead (or something). I can't completely articulate this but that's my current mindset. Maybe she starts with some oral (which never happens) and then we have more extended foreplay. Then sex.


This kind of imaginary thinking isn't going to get you anywhere.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> You can kayak the Mississippi all the way down to NOLA and say hi to my buddies there, return via MTB on I-55 to Chicago and still her math won't change. You can tell her about the issue too, and she'll stonewall you a bit then back to ho hum land.


I am more optimistic.....hope springs eternal. I haven't even broached the idea of MC. Or worse yet (in her head) sex therapy. That will NOT go over well. I have hinted around it in the past and she has NEVER liked the idea or even the possibility of hinting around it. 

Her attitude might change if she sees me traveling more for work, or doing some of my own activities. Hell maybe I should flirt with some women in the carpool lane. I'm kidding about that last one.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> This kind of imaginary thinking isn't going to get you anywhere.


I know you are right but it sounds good in my own head.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

@memdad,

So how was @MEM2020 when he was growing up?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> QED???


Q.E.D.*is an*initialism*of the*Latin phrase*quod erat demonstrandum, meaning "which is what had to be shown".

One of the perils of being married to a PhD mathematician


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I am more optimistic.....hope springs eternal. I haven't even broached the idea of MC. Or worse yet (in her head) sex therapy. That will NOT go over well. I have hinted around it in the past and she has NEVER liked the idea or even the possibility of hinting around it.
> 
> Her attitude might change if she sees me traveling more for work, or doing some of my own activities. Hell maybe I should flirt with some women in the carpool lane. I'm kidding about that last one.


I virtually stopped talking to my wife altogether for months on end . No change...

If she knows you aren't bailing out on her it will be January of 2025 when President Chelsea Clinton is inaugurated that your wife will notice.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Some remaining questions I need to understand some more...
> 
> * Her history, details, not an interrogation but some more information
> * Her desires (fantasies?)
> ...


Nope. Leading by example on this one is a failure.

If she does have some trauma history and has not revealed it as such, she probably won't. Especially if she thinks the conversation is leading to blaming the trauma for the marital dysfunction. Remember, her greatest fear is that she is discovered to be as dirty and unloveable as she thinks she is.

Ok, think of it this way. You had a sporting accident as an adult which resulted in a broken leg and now a seemingly permanent limp. Your wife says she wants to explore some medical treatments which could rehabilitate your leg and thus you two could do some strenuous activities together. Does this sound threatening to your core being? Nope.

Now let's say she starts talking about how you were careless and thus deprived you two of being able to do those strenuous activities together. Starting to sound a bit blaming? Yup, a bit, depending on her tone of voice.

Now multiply that by 1,000,000. That's how she may respond. Many CSA/rape victims end up being blamed directly by parents, friends, police, and society. Or indirectly they feel some guilt. So your wife may feel guilty for the traumatic event _even though you and I know she in no way is at fault_.

She likely cannot separate out blaming the trauma event from the long term psychological effects, meaning she will take any mention of the trauma as you attacking her. You have to be exceedingly careful in bringing up her possible trauma.

I strongly suggest discussing the situation with a therapist first. If you go to MC, this would be the person. After you have a joint session, ask for a solo session. In this session you can tell the therapist what you recall her saying, and that you believe some kind of trauma may be there. You can ask the therapist to consider this possibility. Then the therapist can raise the topic in private with your wife.

The most I would endorse at this time knowing what you've posted so far is for you to say something to the effect that if she feels there is anything she may want to discuss with a therapist you support her in any way which may be helpful. I don't think I would even mention her history or whatever may have happened in high school or college.

Not knowing better what your wife said or in what context, I would not suggest any direct confrontation of the issue with her outside of a therapist's office.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Buddy,

You are truly priceless. I am ROTFL.





Buddy400 said:


> @memdad,
> 
> So how was @MEM2020 when he was growing up?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tex,

100% agree they need to find a way to achieve deep communication. 

I just don't like the basic premise that this has to be a power play - with a coercive flavor to attending counseling.

All,
I love Atlanta's candor, while I wince at his ground truth. 

I'm gonna ask his permission to be totally unfiltered. 




MarriedTex said:


> Yeah, the board groupthink here has come to the definitive conclusion that this is a case of CSA. Plausible, yes. Absolutely the explanation, I'm not convinced. Only way you can get to the bottom of it is to have you both engage in meaningful counseling. Hate to be a broken record, but you have to set your mindset on delivering consequences if she rejects / ignores this counseling request. Put some thought into it and share with us some consequences for her that you would be able to implement if she decides not to participate in counseling.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Atlanta,

I am requesting your blessing for me to post in an utterly unfiltered manner. One - fairly explicit analysis of the yin and the yang of your situation. To date - I've been honest but not unfiltered. 




john117 said:


> I virtually stopped talking to my wife altogether for months on end . No change...
> 
> If she knows you aren't bailing out on her it will be January of 2025 when President Chelsea Clinton is inaugurated that your wife will notice.


----------



## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Proceed. I'm ready.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Tex,
> 
> 100% agree they need to find a way to achieve deep communication.
> 
> ...



Proceed. What is ground truth??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Atlanta,
> 
> I am requesting your blessing for me to post in an utterly unfiltered manner. One - fairly explicit analysis of the yin and the yang of your situation. To date - I've been honest but not unfiltered.


Come on MEM. You doubt my prediction that New York Governor Chelsea Clinton will win the 2025 election?



Atlanta: one great way to lighten up your situation is humor. Good self deprecating humor, Jewish comedian style. You're trying too hard for something that comes naturally. And the more you try, the worse it gets.

You're dealing with a corporate Queen. Been there, done that... Today's my Queen's birthday. I celebrated by running errands, and painting some exterior trim (Sherwin Williams thank you). The Queen got her $100 Estee Lauder gift when it was on special a couple weeks ago. No restaurant, candle light dinner, and all that. 

A month ago it was our 30th anniversary. I completely let it slide and she forgot. My hope is to not have a 31st.

If you can't stand this way of thinking, then you live off what she is willing to provide. I'm 56+, and not really looking forward to much more of this.

And this is after 25 decent years together.. and 10 not quite good.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Atlanta,

Ground truth = a totally accurate depiction of reality. 

For instance there is: your view, her view and then there is ground truth. 

Instead of making assertions I would prefer to ask questions:

How often does N:
1. make a conscious effort to spend one on one time with you?
2. make a conscious effort to touch you, rub your back, hug you?

When was the last time you had a 'real' conversation? A discussion about something of substance - something that was important to one or both of you? 





Marriednatlanta said:


> Proceed. What is ground truth??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

I am a CSA survivor, so I have strong feelings on the subject.

From the OP's posts, I am not getting a CSA vibe. I lean more toward she doesn't like sex or isn't actually attracted to OP. Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe she has suffered a trauma. If she has suffered a trauma and I were OP, I'd be FURIOUS. And rightly so!

Failing to disclose sexual abuse or assault before marriage is nothing short of fraud. Failing to disclose after marriage when your spouse admits that there is a serious problem and then continuing to lie by omission while watching your spouse suffer is nothing short of cruel.

If she is a sexual assault or abuse survivor and has hid this crucial information from her husband for 20 years he would have every right to be angry at her.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> I am a CSA survivor, so I have strong feelings on the subject.
> 
> From the OP's posts, I am not getting a CSA vibe. I lean more toward she doesn't like sex or isn't actually attracted to OP. Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe she has suffered a trauma. If she has suffered a trauma and I were OP, I'd be FURIOUS. And rightly so!
> 
> ...


Beautifully said.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

My sexual behavior for almost the first 30 years of my marriage was a lot like your wife's. And for the record - I did not suffer sexual trauma. However I did suffer from what is often referred to as "Good girls don't" syndrome. I also think I suffered from hormonal problems that kept my desire levels low which made it easy to shut down my sexual feelings. From all the research I have done in the past 10 years, I am also convinced that birth control pills played a part in the hormonal problems. 

In my mind sex was dirty and evil, and participating in it made me guilty, especially if I enjoyed it. So, I tried to stay away from it and only tolerated sex with my husband when I felt I had to, which resulted in sex happening once a week if he was lucky, and often once or twice a month. I seldom let him pleasure me - or do anything to me other than intercourse. I wouldn't touch him - oral was completely off the table - giving or getting. And the sex he did get was just as you described yours is now. My favorite position was laying on my stomach, only giving him PIV access. It was my ultimate way of saying - I don't want to do this - but because I am sick of your pestering, and I am feeling somewhat guilty - this is ALL I am giving you. And you better do it quickly!!! Then I resented that he would go ahead and do it - knowing full well I did not want to do it. I am telling you - if your wife has any of the same mind play that went on in my head - you are in a no win situation as far as sex is concerned. I offered him pity sex, or starfish sex as it is sometimes called here - to reel him back in when he started to withdraw from our relationship too much - and I felt he was pulling away too far, or when I could tell he was getting really upset about my saying no all the time.

So, unfortunately - I would guess my husband could totally relate to most of your posts. And all the things you tried, he tried - except he never, not even once had a direct talk with me about it - or directly expressed verbally his feelings about not having sex. He acted like our marriage was good. We got along for the most part, and when we didn't - he avoided me. He was/is also a nice guy - I mean a really nice guy (in a good way), and in some ways a nice guy (in a bad way) too. 

So having been like your wife as far as my behavior regarding sex and recovered (by the grace of God and not really from anything my husband did or didn't do) - I will share some of my thoughts with you. Most of my thoughts, if not all of them, has already been said by other posters. So this will probably be a repeat. And also I will preface this by saying I don't have a clue why your wife doesn't like sex - if she was sexually traumatized, if she is a natural LD, or if she has resentment issues towards you, hormonal issues, or is assexual etc. etc. Only she can tell you the why - and it's highly possible she doesn't even know herself. I didn't know exactly. I just knew hubby wanted sex a heck of lot more than I did. Sex made me feel bad about myself, and I avoided it. And he liked it and kept trying to get it. I felt bad about saying no all the time - and I hated the way my husband acted both when he wanted sex and when he didn't get it. But apparently I did not feel bad enough to change things. 

I believe your wife thinks about sex every day - but only because you make her think about it. And I venture to say she does not think about it or you in a good way during those thoughts. But again - only she can tell you what she thinks and how she feels and why she feels the way she does. However - honestly - I don't think you will ever get her to talk about it - unless a professional can get her to open up. I don't thing she will ever open up to you on her own. That is why Mem brings up that he thinks your emotional connection is weak or lacking. Both of you are holding back huge parts of you emotional make up - for whatever reason. I would guess that its because neither of you feel really safe to show your real selves - for whatever reasons. (This is the stuff the professional will have to help you figure out).

So my thoughts on your situation

1. Your wife does not like sex. She does not enjoy it the majority of the time - and I venture to say she probably hates it most of the time. I think your 10% guestimate of orgasms may even be a little high. What I can't say is if she doesn't like sex at all - or just doesn't like it with you. At this point - I am not sure that matters all that much - because its gone on so long, and she isn't trying to get it from anywhere else (unless she masturbates a lot without your knowledge, which could be a possibility - but I doubt it). So even if it started out that she did not like having sex with you - it is to the point now, where she just doesn't like having it at all. And that's what you are dealing with now.

2. There is nothing you alone can do to fix this issue for her. It is her issue. She is the one that does not want to have sex, that does not like it, and will not let you do anything to make it better for her - even though you try and try and try. She has to want to change and she has to do the work on herself to change. You can try to motivate her, beg her, bribe her, nuclear option her, educate her, wine and dine her, etc., etc., to get her to change - but NOTHING will work UNLESS and UNTIL SHE and SHE ALONE decides she wants to and needs to change bad enough to actually change herself. This one fact applies to all LD situations - sexual trauma, resentment, hormonal issues, etc. 

3. The statistics of her deciding to change and actually changing long term are not in your favor, especially if she will not work with a good sex therapist. The fact is most women like I was, and like your wife is do not change on their own - and those that do, usually change because either their hormones change and make them really horny (which is what happened to me), or something causes them to realize that the benefits of changing highly outweigh the consequences of staying the same - or vice a versa (i.e the consequences of not changing highly outweigh the benefits of staying the same), or if their lack of desire is caused by something there husband is doing or not doing that turns them off - and the husband fixes himself and that is no longer an issue. If you don't believe me go through the hundreds of posts from spouses just like you. 

4. Since you have taken divorce off the table - then you need to go back and really understand and really accept the above 3 facts about your situation. And if really come to terms with these facts and divorce is still off the table - then you need to decide to accept and love your wife just as she is right now - really accept your sex life, just as it is now - and let go of the idea that she will change, that she needs to change for you to be happy and quit thinking about trying to make sex better - and find a way to be happy with your marriage just the way it is now!! There are many men who stay and make the best of their marriage by choice - but more often most men stay by default. Or in other words - they keep fighting against the current carrying them down stream - until they finally realize they are downstream and are too tired or too old to get out and walk back upstream. Most who stay by default are bitter about where they find themselves.

If by chance you get lucky and your wife turns out to be one of the few with a different outcome - then consider it a bonus. It does happen. It happened to my husband. 

Now that I have brought you down and probably really depressed you by introducing you to your reality, I will tell you your best chance and hope of addressing this problem is with a sex therapist. I highly recommend you go by yourself if your wife will not go with you. If your wife won't go - you will need help to figure out what her unwillingness to work on something that is so important to you means to you and to your marriage - and if her not changing is a deal breaker or not. Right now you say it is not - but you are also a man that came to a forum thinking we could give you a magic pill to make your wife all of a sudden become more sexual on your Costa Rica trip. Just saying...

From what you have written - it is clear you think you can change your wife. Well, you can't. You can change yourself, and you can support her if she decides to change - but only she can change herself. (And chances are - that won't happen before or during you Costa Rica trip). Sorry - I wish I could tell you otherwise.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Nothing will change unless your wife wants to change.

And with divorce a no-go, you have no leverage. And you're stuck.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

A couple of observations on the posts above..

First, get out of the "I can fix it" mentality. With three degrees in psychology I thought I could fix it too. Never mind my superb understanding of how she thinks, never mind my superb manipulation skills, never mind my prediction ability, none of that. I know what's going on but can't undo a fvcked up upbringing. 

Second, keep in mind that what you have now will deteriorate. And, at some point, when she's confident sex is off the table, she'll start living her life more watching out for number one, ie herself. You'll be playing along as well. Resentment is hard to uproot. If she has this notion of a pair of silver hairs driving their Volvo or Buick to the sunset.. ain't happening.

Eventually your marital KPI's will deteriorate and that's all she wrote. One health crisis and poof, what you did over four decades, gone.

Get in counseling now and try to straighten out these parts. Then worry about sex.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

QFT

Mary's gold....




mary35 said:


> My sexual behavior for almost the first 30 years of my marriage was a lot like your wife's. And for the record - I did not suffer sexual trauma. However I did suffer from what is often referred to as "Good girls don't" syndrome. I also think I suffered from hormonal problems that kept my desire levels low which made it easy to shut down my sexual feelings. From all the research I have done in the past 10 years, I am also convinced that birth control pills played a part in the hormonal problems.
> 
> In my mind sex was dirty and evil, and participating in it made me guilty, especially if I enjoyed it. So, I tried to stay away from it and only tolerated sex with my husband when I felt I had to, which resulted in sex happening once a week if he was lucky, and often once or twice a month. I seldom let him pleasure me - or do anything to me other than intercourse. I wouldn't touch him - oral was completely off the table - giving or getting. And the sex he did get was just as you described yours is now. My favorite position was laying on my stomach, only giving him PIV access. It was my ultimate way of saying - I don't want to do this - but because I am sick of your pestering, and I am feeling somewhat guilty - this is ALL I am giving you. And you better do it quickly!!! Then I resented that he would go ahead and do it - knowing full well I did not want to do it. I am telling you - if your wife has any of the same mind play that went on in my head - you are in a no win situation as far as sex is concerned. I offered him pity sex, or starfish sex as it is sometimes called here - to reel him back in when he started to withdraw from our relationship too much - and I felt he was pulling away too far, or when I could tell he was getting really upset about my saying no all the time.
> 
> ...


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> I virtually stopped talking to my wife altogether for months on end . No change...
> 
> If she knows you aren't bailing out on her it will be January of 2025 when President Chelsea Clinton is inaugurated that your wife will notice.


I'm not going that route. Why are you still together if I may ask?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Atlanta,
> 
> Ground truth = a totally accurate depiction of reality.
> 
> ...


1. That happens as life rolls along. We are not avoiding each other. We have normal couple time dinners out tv time etc

2. Rare. 
We talk about ALOT. Just not our sex life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Thor said:


> Nope. Leading by example on this one is a failure.
> 
> If she does have some trauma history and has not revealed it as such, she probably won't. Especially if she thinks the conversation is leading to blaming the trauma for the marital dysfunction. Remember, her greatest fear is that she is discovered to be as dirty and unloveable as she thinks she is.
> 
> ...


I'm going to be soo good at this. Ugh. Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Short answer: Money 

Long answer: Two daughters in college, one starting her PhD in design next year and one starting medical school next year... PhD girl should get a full ride but med school girl... LoansRUs. 

We both make very good money but even very good money's not enough versus two expensive colleges . In May 2017 I'm filing...

I know it's cold and calculating but selling your soul (and a few other body parts) to the devil has its ramifications. The important lessons here are many:

- things won't get better
- the older the kids the harder it will be to deal with it
- by the time the kids are in college, you'll be too pi$$ed off at each other to do anything
- it won't get better

To me, it was worth the price. My older girl is in Italy and texting me from the train to Florence as we speak. The younger is spending her final semester in Lausanne next year studying health policy and maybe interning at WHO. That's $40k in one year , probably more. Maybe I should pack up the Mini Cooper and head to Nevada with that $40k?


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Nothing really. *A few comments that it will get better once the kids get older *(that is at least 13 years away), that is normal for couples with kids to experience this, etc....and a just a general unwillingness to do or try anything other than what we are doing. At this point, even a with a trip to Costa Rica coming up, I am so fed up with her level of participation in this process.
> 
> I stopped asking for sex, expecting sex, even hinting around sex with her about a month a go. We had a shower quickie a week or two ago. I am at a point where I would rather go without then have the same thing over and over and over again.
> 
> I will not participate unless it changes (the routine) that is. Am I being too harsh? I'm here because I am really open to almost anything.


Dude, surely you know this is BS..sorry to be blunt. And I think you know the answer but just don't want to confront the truth.

Whatever her problem is won't be fixed by an empty nest in 13 years. Her lying there while you do your thing is duty sex, surely the most horrible sex there is because it feels off, especially when it's meant to be intimate that two people are supposed to enjoy.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Atlanta,
The reason you don't yet have answers - is twofold:
1. The way you ask questions is likely ego protective instead of ruthlessly truth seeking
2. When N senses that you want reassurance more than truth, she gives it - reassurance - instead of truth

The best way to get to a good outcome is to strive towards acceptance of the truth as it is today - with the hope that maybe it can be improved. The truth is however kind of ugly.

1. You two have a weak connection partly because you don't really know each other.
2. And you don't know her because for 19 years you've chosen not to traverse a simple decision tree.
3. You don't know the truth because at some level you don't WANT TO KNOW

Let's start with how little you know. 
1. You don't even know if it's ever good for her. Because for that to be true you have to acknowledge that it is at least mostly bad for her.
2. Since you've avoided that acknowledgement - you don't know if this is an attraction thing or a technique thing.

You could ask her: How much of your lack of desire to physically connect with me (or you can say: have sex with me) is a lack of attraction thing and how much is it that my technique isn't good?

That is a sincere question. So she might answer it. 

You can also ask her: Is it EVER good for you, or are you always just waiting for it to be over?

If she believes you truly want to know and can handle the truth - she'll tell you. 





Marriednatlanta said:


> 1. That happens as life rolls along. We are not avoiding each other. We have normal couple time dinners out tv time etc
> 
> 2. Rare.
> We talk about ALOT. Just not our sex life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

mary35 said:


> My sexual behavior for almost the first 30 years of my marriage was a lot like your wife's. And for the record - I did not suffer sexual trauma. However I did suffer from what is often referred to as "Good girls don't" syndrome. I also think I suffered from hormonal problems that kept my desire levels low which made it easy to shut down my sexual feelings. From all the research I have done in the past 10 years, I am also convinced that birth control pills played a part in the hormonal problems.
> 
> In my mind sex was dirty and evil, and participating in it made me guilty, especially if I enjoyed it. So, I tried to stay away from it and only tolerated sex with my husband when I felt I had to, which resulted in sex happening once a week if he was lucky, and often once or twice a month. I seldom let him pleasure me - or do anything to me other than intercourse. I wouldn't touch him - oral was completely off the table - giving or getting. And the sex he did get was just as you described yours is now. My favorite position was laying on my stomach, only giving him PIV access. It was my ultimate way of saying - I don't want to do this - but because I am sick of your pestering, and I am feeling somewhat guilty - this is ALL I am giving you. And you better do it quickly!!! Then I resented that he would go ahead and do it - knowing full well I did not want to do it. I am telling you - if your wife has any of the same mind play that went on in my head - you are in a no win situation as far as sex is concerned. I offered him pity sex, or starfish sex as it is sometimes called here - to reel him back in when he started to withdraw from our relationship too much - and I felt he was pulling away too far, or when I could tell he was getting really upset about my saying no all the time.
> 
> ...


Mary, I have read your post a few times and will probably read it a few more times this weekend. Thanks for the input. Ok if I send you a private for some additional input?


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> I am a CSA survivor, so I have strong feelings on the subject.
> 
> From the OP's posts, I am not getting a CSA vibe. I lean more toward she doesn't like sex or isn't actually attracted to OP. Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe she has suffered a trauma. If she has suffered a trauma and I were OP, I'd be FURIOUS. And rightly so!
> 
> ...


It was disclosed but it's been so many years I can't recall the exact details. I need to get us into counseling.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Atlanta,

Before you proceed - likely best to consider why you are near the 20 year mark without explicitly acknowledging this is often a bad experience for her. Because if you walk through that door - you better be well prepared.

If I'm N - I might decide the best defense is a good offense. Here's how that might play out:

Atlanta: acknowledging this is mostly a negative experience for N, and trying to understand why
N: So let me get this straight. You KNOW it's bad for me, and yet - keep pushing it. How can you enjoy something when you know I DONT want to do it with you?

--------
Let me help you out here. Because you don't strike me as either a bad or predatory person. There are a few powerful factors at work. 

1. It is actually quite difficult to believe that something which feels so fantastic for you, could actually feel bad to your partner. 
2. She has chosen not to talk about this with you, making it a less clear cut situation. 
3. While the raw physical experience remains good, the emotions of it are now sour as you have finally realized it often DOES feel bad for her.
4. It was obvious that you felt desire - at the point you proposed. You assumed she wouldn't have accepted your proposal if she didn't feel the same way.
5. Last but very much not least: You accept it must feel bad to dread having sex. Does she understand it feels equally bad to dread being rejected? And having only a fraction of the physical relationship you actually want.

---------
The tone needs to be neutral. Like you are describing the current weather conditions. No anger. No apology. Just you - saying what is true.






MEM2020 said:


> Atlanta,
> The reason you don't yet have answers - is twofold:
> 1. The way you ask questions is likely ego protective instead of ruthlessly truth seeking
> 2. When N senses that you want reassurance more than truth, she gives it - reassurance - instead of truth
> ...


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Atlanta,
> 
> Before you proceed - likely best to consider why you are near the 20 year mark without explicitly acknowledging this is often a bad experience for her. Because if you walk through that door - you better be well prepared.
> 
> ...


So, everyone's advice has been really appreciated and eye opening. I have contacted a therapist via email for a fone consult, hopefully Monday. 

I agree with the tone being neutral when talking about this topic. I have even tried the more lite hearted approach after another lackluster .....sort of joking "we have killed our love life" said to her as she would go to get dressed. She would respond with something like "it's going to be like this sometimes" meaning, quick efficient, to the point. 

I don't think this "she does not like" scenario or "it feels bad" is the problem. As I said she is somewhat disconnected from it while it's happening. I don't know. Maybe she does not like it.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Marriednatlanta said:


> So, everyone's advice has been really appreciated and eye opening. I have contacted a therapist via email for a fone consult, hopefully Monday.
> 
> I agree with the tone being neutral when talking about this topic. I have even tried the more lite hearted approach after another lackluster .....sort of joking "we have killed our love life" said to her as she would go to get dressed. She would respond with something like "it's going to be like this sometimes" meaning, quick efficient, to the point.
> 
> I don't think this "she does not like" scenario or "it feels bad" is the problem. As I said she is somewhat disconnected from it while it's happening. I don't know. Maybe she does not like it.


Look, as a woman I can tell you that a woman who is aroused and into sex is anything but passive and disconnected.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Atlanta,
> The reason you don't yet have answers - is twofold:
> 1. The way you ask questions is likely ego protective instead of ruthlessly truth seeking
> 2. When N senses that you want reassurance more than truth, she gives it - reassurance - instead of truth
> ...


I have asked her questions before about it...she TELLS me it is fine/good etc...she is climaxing etc...but it is emotionless. I pressed her once on the whole "are you even climaxing" and she snapped "of course I am I would tell you if I wasn't"


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> Look, as a woman I can tell you that a woman who is aroused and into sex is anything but passive and disconnected.


I know. It has been a gradual descent.....


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I have asked her questions before about it...she TELLS me it is fine/good etc...she is climaxing etc...but it is emotionless. I pressed her once on the whole "are you even climaxing" and she snapped "of course I am I would tell you if I wasn't"


From my viewpoint: She sounds pissed you question her acting ability.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Atlanta,
You explicitly gave me permission to be unfiltered. So now I'm gonna be just that.

Sex is by far the biggest point of contention in your marriage. Do you really believe that she is creating all this tension for no good reason?

That is simply ludicrous. She has done everything she can to avoid sex - and yet you claim she doesn't dislike it. 

While a therapist is generally a good thing it is ALSO true that a therapist cannot help you if you continue to stick your head deep in the sand. 

In the spirt of being helpful - I will give you some context. I will rate M2 in a few key categories and give you an approximate rating from her to me solely based on her actual behavior. Ratings are on a 10 scale. 

MEM rating of M2:
1. companion: 9++ 
2. non sexual touch: 9++
3. sexual touch/attraction: 9

M2 rating if MEM:
1. companion: 9++ 
2. non sexual touch: 9++
3. sexual touch/attraction: 5-6

That my man is just reality. And I fully accept it. Do I wish I was 'hotter'? Sure. Of course. Am I glad that M2 loves me enough to make our sex life work? Hell yes. 

Do we have tension over our mismatched desire levels? Rarely. M2 is always willing to connect with me. And I am generally not interested in connecting twith her when she isn't really feeling it. 





MEM2020 said:


> Atlanta,
> The reason you don't yet have answers - is twofold:
> 1. The way you ask questions is likely ego protective instead of ruthlessly truth seeking
> 2. When N senses that you want reassurance more than truth, she gives it - reassurance - instead of truth
> ...





Marriednatlanta said:


> So, everyone's advice has been really appreciated and eye opening. I have contacted a therapist via email for a fone consult, hopefully Monday.
> 
> I agree with the tone being neutral when talking about this topic. I have even tried the more lite hearted approach after another lackluster .....sort of joking "we have killed our love life" said to her as she would go to get dressed. She would respond with something like "it's going to be like this sometimes" meaning, quick efficient, to the point.
> 
> I don't think this "she does not like" scenario or "it feels bad" is the problem. As I said she is somewhat disconnected from it while it's happening. I don't know. Maybe she does not like it.


----------



## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Malaise said:


> From my viewpoint: She sounds pissed you question her acting ability.


She is tired of me analyzing her, our sex, her response, etc....I am tired of too. I stopped awhile ago. But I'm still frustrated with the actual sex due to the lack of commitment, excitement etc...by N.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Atlanta,
> You explicitly gave me permission to be unfiltered. So now I'm gonna be just that.
> 
> Sex is by far the biggest point of contention in your marriage. Do you really believe that she is creating all this tension for no good reason?
> ...


I guess I am holding onto the following scenario in my head....and please keep in mind, it's my marriage. 19 years I know N pretty well. I may not be able to express it all perfectly here on a forum. And by my own admission I did come here to get some outside the box advice or ideas - and it has been fantastic. Beth, you, a lot of others. 

My scenario I'm holding onto is something like this

N is exhausted from working, childcare, household, everything else. Sex is the lowest thing on her priority list. She has had some trauma in her past and was possibly in experienced (more so than I knew 19 yrs ago). I have a much higher sex drive than she does (clearly) and so my frustration resentment has steadily increased over the years to present day. While in early years she could manage it all (and as I have said it started off fine) now there is just too much on her plate. 

This scenario still makes sense to me bc of the frequency and the quality. My frustration/boiling point is that she seems to not want to fight through any of it to get to the other side (a great sex life). For example...rather than going downstairs to watch TV to RELAX, let's go in different bedroom and have some great sex after the kids are in bed and asleep, that should help with stess, sleeping, relaxing, our marriage, etc....this is just me suggesting ideas of course. 

We have tried this year to due a few date nights in a hotel etc...has not worked out yet but she is not opposed to it. She has suggested it even. She knows what she is signing up for. Maybe I am grasping at straws. Beth????? 

I know I have to sit her down and ask the hard questions. I read the first chapter of the married mans sex guide.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Atlanta,
In your VERY FIRST post you said the core of it is that N does not seem to like sex. And the basis for that statement was her avoidance of it. Sometimes for months at a time despite knowing this REALLY upsets you.

If you want to try and address this with her - you need to start by being totally honest with yourself. 

Your fixation on excuses is destructive: she's so busy (bullshlt), she was abused - you've already been told by a CSA victim that N isn't presenting that way. 

Except - N isn't too busy to do the things she likes. 

Enough for now. This is a lot for you to process and frankly the reason you are almost 20 years into this situation is that it is inherently difficult and you aren't really comfortable dealing with it. 

At some point you will realize the truth is your friend. Until then you will focus on constructing excuses that allow you to avoid dealing with this. 

And FWIW - in general women hate this fragile male ego nonsense. It is weak and it's a turn off. A big turn off. 




Marriednatlanta said:


> I guess I am holding onto the following scenario in my head....and please keep in mind, it's my marriage. 19 years I know N pretty well. I may not be able to express it all perfectly here on a forum. And by my own admission I did come here to get some outside the box advice or ideas - and it has been fantastic. Beth, you, a lot of others.
> 
> My scenario I'm holding onto is something like this
> 
> ...


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I know I have to sit her down and ask the hard questions. I read the first chapter of the married mans sex guide.


Bear in mind that is a useful, but mechanic philosophy about the man-wife relation. No More Mr Nice Guy is a book that applies more in your situation I think, because it learns you to take care of what YOU want, instead of being a passive doormatter at the point of your sex life. But very good you take action here!


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I guess I am holding onto the following scenario in my head....and please keep in mind, it's my marriage. 19 years I know N pretty well. I may not be able to express it all perfectly here on a forum. And by my own admission I did come here to get some outside the box advice or ideas - and it has been fantastic. Beth, you, a lot of others.
> 
> My scenario I'm holding onto is something like this
> 
> ...


Beth? Did I miss some posts or something?

Nobody is saying you don't know your wife and marriage. You are the one that came here to this forum looking for help with this problem. So you don't have it all figured out yet - by your own admission. Do any of us? I for one do not!!! 

I do think that your wife being overwhelmed with kids, career, and life in general is part of her sexual issues. But I don't think it is the major part. Why? Because if I remember correctly you have stated the sex doesn't get better when you go on vacations or get away from the kids - etc. She is not really jumping on the hotel get away idea. You are even gearing yourself for pretty dull sex on your 20th anniversary trip. 

I think you need to keep digging and let go of that scenario. Pay attention to MEM. I for one think he is on to something important. You really have to try to get into your wife's head somehow. Until you do - you will never understand what is really going on with her or your sex life. Maybe that's just it - you don't really want to know. You just want it fixed!! Wouldn't be the first poster on this forum that felt that way! lol


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

These threads are always interesting. They look for a deeper motive because the simplest truth is unpalatable. Imagine if you posted this.



> My wife and I have a great marriage, except that I love pizza and my wife hates it. It's really important to me. How do I get my wife to like pizza?


Everyone would say, maybe she just doesn't like pizza. Deal with it.

Point being, you can maybe negotiate a deal where she participates for your sake, but if she just likes a different frequency from you, that's not necessarily something you can change. Just like you can negotiate for pizza once a week, but that won't make her like it.

Maybe you can identify things you can work on that will vary things a bit, but I'm not convinced that in the long term you can fundamentally change who someone is.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mary,

The theme I am MOST certain about in this situation is as follows. 

To date, her verbal messages have all been reassuring but her conduct screams a wholly different message. Avoidance plus a total lack of engagement (just lying there) - are powerful messages. 

If I am 'N', and Atlanta approaches this by IGNORING all my non verbal communication, that would make me angry. 

If however - he acknowledges that the best part of his week is often the worst part of hers, they can at least have a real conversation. 

He can say in all honesty he knows it isn't good for her, but doesn't know how to make it better. Doesn't even know if it is ever really good for her. 

It's also odd they don't have more non sexual physical contact. Given that she's made nights off limits for sex, seems like she could relax about non sexual touch. 





mary35 said:


> Beth? Did I miss some posts or something?
> 
> Nobody is saying you don't know your wife and marriage. You are the one that came here to this forum looking for help with this problem. So you don't have it all figured out yet - by your own admission. Do any of us? I for one do not!!!
> 
> ...


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> It's also odd they don't have more non sexual physical contact. Given that she's made nights off limits for sex, seems like she could relax about non sexual touch.


From my experience:

Non sexual touch, cuddling on the sofa, etc, slowly went away. She was afraid it would lead to something more. So, it vanished over time.

'N' may be concerned along the same lines, that non-sexual could lead to sexual. Something she doesn't really want.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Says she "is" but I know she is not. 50% of the time she just "throws in the towel" and mumbles something about not being able to,,,from there it's my turn and then it's over.


Wow.

You're completely clueless about sex and how to please a woman. Yet another guy who got his sex 'education' from porn and who thinks his magic member should automatically send a woman into orbit. :laugh:

Your wife has zero passion for you and it started on your wedding night. You had zero experience and from the sounds of it, really haven't learned much over 20 years. That's also her fault, make no mistake. She should have trained you. It sounds as though she just doesn't care enough to bother, and never did.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> If I did the math right, you think she may orgasm about 10% of the time you have sex. For me, that would be a HUGE problem. Over a period of time, I could imagine I'd sexually shut down. I'm not getting much out of it, so why do it other than as a chore I perform for the sake of the marriage?
> 
> I suspect she is either not sexually attracted to you or she has shut down to avoid sexual frustration.
> 
> I think you should seriously discuss sex therapy. As in, not really a discussion, you're both going and that's that.


Yup.

Yup.

And yup.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

mary35 said:


> Beth? Did I miss some posts or something?
> 
> Nobody is saying you don't know your wife and marriage. You are the one that came here to this forum looking for help with this problem. So you don't have it all figured out yet - by your own admission. Do any of us?  I for one do not!!!
> 
> ...


Sorry somehow I read Mary but wrote Beth.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

See_Listen_Love said:


> Bear in mind that is a useful, but mechanic philosophy about the man-wife relation. No More Mr Nice Guy is a book that applies more in your situation I think, because it learns you to take care of what YOU want, instead of being a passive doormatter at the point of your sex life. But very good you take action here!


Just downloaded for reading this week. Thanks.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Wow.
> 
> You're completely clueless about sex and how to please a woman. Yet another guy who got his sex 'education' from porn and who thinks his magic member should automatically send a woman into orbit. :laugh:
> 
> Your wife has zero passion for you and it started on your wedding night. You had zero experience and from the sounds of it, really haven't learned much over 20 years. That's also her fault, make no mistake. She should have trained you. It sounds as though she just doesn't care enough to bother, and never did.


This is not totally true. We have had passion -- in the past. And have worked at "what do you like, what do I like" etc...We just hit a rough spot.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Malaise said:


> From my experience:
> 
> Non sexual touch, cuddling on the sofa, etc, slowly went away. She was afraid it would lead to something more. So, it vanished over time.
> 
> 'N' may be concerned along the same lines, that non-sexual could lead to sexual. Something she doesn't really want.


I don't think this is the case. She knows when things are leading to the bedroom. And was trying the casual touching thing for awhile , PDAs, etc, just probably got a little lazy and some resentment kicked in overall so I have not been as good in that area as I once was.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Malaise said:


> From my experience:
> 
> Non sexual touch, cuddling on the sofa, etc, slowly went away. She was afraid it would lead to something more. So, it vanished over time.
> 
> 'N' may be concerned along the same lines, that non-sexual could lead to sexual. Something she doesn't really want.


This in spades.

The prevailing wisdom in TAM is that she's not into him and other such things. Nope. She's not into sex, because of various reasons.

He may ask not why she doesn't want sex, but whether in her perception people in her age etc have a healthy sex life.... That may shift focus from her as a person and to her cultural / social expectations and norms.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

MEM2020 said:


> Mary,
> 
> The theme I am MOST certain about in this situation is as follows.
> 
> ...


 This is not odd to me at all. When a husband is not getting sex - let's face it - he craves it - and its constantly on his mind. There is no such thing as non sexual physical contact when he is really really horny and craving his wife. At least that is how it felt to me. So I learned real quickly that any non sexual physical contact often led to him trying to go for more which I did not want to have to deal with. So I stopped any behavior that I though would give him any inclination that sex might be a possibility. Another very strong red flag - right? Should be!! 

Atlanta made a comment about her bending over - and he got turned on. She is saying over and over in all her behaviors concerning sex that she does not want it very often, is not really interested in enjoying it very often - and furthermore, is not really interested in making it enjoyable for him. At least that is what I read into her behaviors - which of course, my read is based on my own life experience and feelings. Yet he keeps trying to get her to change, he keeps searching for the magic pill that will suddenly make her turn the corner and become more sexually interested and passionate. Why is he not more concerned and bothered by the fact that his wife pushes him away and rejects him over and over? Why is he not more angry and concerned about her not being interested in his feelings and his desires? 

Kind of sad in a way - the dysfunctional dances we create as both spouses try so hard to convey with their behaviors what they want and don't want - trying to change each other and fix their problems - all without really sitting down, discussing and delving into the root causes of the problems. Why is it so hard to break out of the dysfunctional behavior dance, why is it easier to continue with the painful reality of not meeting each others needs and having contention over their sexual life?

For me - the reason was mostly fear. I felt I was broken and I was not sure I could be fixed. My body didn't even work the way I thought it should. Sexual intercourse, romance, love was suppose to be beautiful and fulfilling. My prince charming and I were suppose to live happily ever after. Yet sexual intercourse didn't even feel good, and manual sex made me feel bad and guilty most of the time. If I addressed the issue, my husband would see just how really broken I was. And worse - I would see just how broken I really was. These feelings were painful to me. Dealing with sex was painful. The longer it went on the more painful and confusing it became. Dealing with my husband who was a constantly looking for sex from me was painful. So I built a protective wall - a very high and thick one. Avoidance and an emotional disconnect was the bricks in my wall. Ignoring the topic - and focusing on everything else in my life - pretending our marriage was good, that we were good friends and our marriage was hunky dory - kept me hidden within my safe walls. I chose feeling safe. Hubby built his own walls and chose denial. And life went on...neither of us admitting there was a problem, neither of us working on fixing ourselves, neither of us really happy and content. 

It wasn't until we finally broke down our walls and dealt with our fears - opening up fully to each other that a real emotional and intimate bond could be formed. Which has been an amazing and wonderful experience. We are not perfect. We still struggle - and sometimes retreat behind our safety walls. I still struggle with my sexuality sometimes. I think I still have some deep digging to do in some areas, as does my husband. But our marriage and our connection is so much better than it ever was. i had no idea just how good a marriage could be - and what a difference a good sexual relationship could make it connecting and bonding us. Now that I do know - I am committed to keeping it that way for as long as I can.


To Atlanta - my advice is to stop rug sweeping, stop the dysfunctional dance - at least your part of it. Tear down your walls and open yourself up to your wife. Start talking, and more importantly, start listening - listening with your ears, with your eyes, and with your heart. She is telling you things that you are are not hearing. Continue on with the therapist path. It will not be easy, but it is necessary if you want the kind of marriage and sexual relationship you crave. I can't guarantee that she will follow suit. And you should be prepared that you are going to upset her boat by stopping your part in the dance. She has become very comfortable in her safe walls - and you disturbing her comfort is going to greatly upset her. Just remember her change is in her hands alone. If she decides she can't or won't change - you will have some tough decisions to make. The advice to work on you is good advice. Make yourself attractive, be confident, and sexy, a good husband, a good lover, a good father, a good listener, a good communicator. Be the kind of man that she wants to keep around which may help her want to change to keep you.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Mary

You are so spot on.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

I am confident Atlanta is contributing something meaningful to this situation. Either by a lack of positive or the presence of some behaviors that don't work for her. That is largely due to the lack of real communication on this subject.

By default the hardest and or scariest part of these conversations - is the partner contribution part. 

Unless you make it really easy - you won't get genuine feedback. 

This is a situation where you have a stark choice: embrace reality with whatever it brings - or protect your ego.





john117 said:


> This in spades.
> 
> The prevailing wisdom in TAM is that she's not into him and other such things. Nope. She's not into sex, because of various reasons.
> 
> He may ask not why she doesn't want sex, but whether in her perception people in her age etc have a healthy sex life.... That may shift focus from her as a person and to her cultural / social expectations and norms.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Non sexual affection is so powerful. 

This is worth making the effort to solve. And that requires decoupling sexual overtones from basic non sexual affection. At least for now.

Maybe that sounds - boring - but it isn't boring and it is worth the effort. 

It also creates trust. 




mary35 said:


> This is not odd to me at all. When a husband is not getting sex - let's face it - he craves it - and its constantly on his mind. There is no such thing as non sexual physical contact when he is really really horny and craving his wife. At least that is how it felt to me. So I learned real quickly that any non sexual physical contact often led to him trying to go for more which I did not want to have to deal with. So I stopped any behavior that I though would give him any inclination that sex might be a possibility. Another very strong red flag - right? Should be!!
> 
> Atlanta made a comment about her bending over - and he got turned on. She is saying over and over in all her behaviors concerning sex that she does not want it very often, is not really interested in enjoying it very often - and furthermore, is not really interested in making it enjoyable for him. At least that is what I read into her behaviors - which of course, my read is based on my own life experience and feelings. Yet he keeps trying to get her to change, he keeps searching for the magic pill that will suddenly make her turn the corner and become more sexually interested and passionate. Why is he not more concerned and bothered by the fact that his wife pushes him away and rejects him over and over? Why is he not more angry and concerned about her not being interested in his feelings and his desires?
> 
> ...


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Mary, your post is brilliant. Bit the thing I struggle with is this.

Atlanta can send one of two signals in this situation. He can send the signal that the marriage is under threat and needs to be worked on, which carries an implicit criticism of her. Or he can send the signal that he wants to work together and fix things, but that he will be there for her, which allows her to stay in her comfort zone and avoid dealing with things.

I've usually found in the hard parts of my marriage that it's hard to know which signal to send. 

Is there a dimension of what should be communicated that I am missing?


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Wazza said:


> Mary, your post is brilliant. Bit the thing I struggle with is this.
> 
> Atlanta can send one of two signals in this situation. He can send the signal that the marriage is under threat and needs to be worked on, which carries an implicit criticism of her. Or he can send the signal that he wants to work together and fix things, but that he will be there for her, which allows her to stay in her comfort zone and avoid dealing with things.
> 
> ...


There is a third signal that he can send - or better yet bluntly and honestly state in a loving manner. That he wants to work together and fix things, that he has every intention of being there for her, but that there is a serious problem within their marriage that is hurting their relationship and they both play a part in that problem. There are natural consequences and natural threats to the marriage when serious problems are rug swept and not addressed and he can already see those consequences and threats in their marriage. And then be prepared to outline what they are and what he is worried about. 

Men are human - and are allowed to say that when their needs are not met - they feel resentment, anger, and their loving feelings disappear quickly! When they walk around horny all the time - temptations are harder to fight. These are not threats - these are facts and natural consequences and natural threats to the marriage. Rejection over and over breeds contempt and feelings of insecurity. Nobody wants to feel this way and will start avoiding people and situations that cause them to feel this way. Fact! Right? Why is this any different in a marriage? 

Sheltering our spouses from natural consequences and natural threats to the marriage does neither spouse any favors. You don't have to be critical to say "Hey there is a problem in our marriage and we both are contributing to it, lets work on it. I am willing to do my part - are you? 

Mem has already given some great phraseology to do this without criticism. Perhaps he will share more ideas and suggestions.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

Wazza said:


> These threads are always interesting. They look for a deeper motive because the simplest truth is unpalatable. Imagine if you posted this.
> 
> Everyone would say, maybe she just doesn't like pizza. Deal with it.
> 
> ...


But pizza is great! I need pizza in my life to feel happy, and I also definitely need my spouse to get excited about pizza and initiate pizza-ordering so I can feel loved. What if I send her to therapy for insight into why she doesn't like pizza? Will she become enthusiastic about pizza then? I can't stand it if she doesn't. I'm secretly planning to leave the marriage unless she shows some passion for pizza. Etc., etcetera zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

mary35 said:


> There is a third signal that he can send - or better yet bluntly and honestly state in a loving manner. That he wants to work together and fix things, that he has every intention of being there for her, but that there is a serious problem within their marriage that is hurting their relationship and they both play a part in that problem. There are natural consequences and natural threats to the marriage when serious problems are rug swept and not addressed and he can already see those consequences and threats in their marriage. And then be prepared to outline what they are and what he is worried about.
> 
> Men are human - and are allowed to say that when their needs are not met - they feel resentment, anger, and their loving feelings disappear quickly! When they walk around horny all the time - temptations are harder to fight. These are not threats - these are facts and natural consequences and natural threats to the marriage. Rejection over and over breeds contempt and feelings of insecurity. Nobody wants to feel this way and will start avoiding people and situations that cause them to feel this way. Fact! Right? Why is this any different in a marriage?
> 
> ...


I'm struggling to see the difference between my first option and your third way. I just feel that, as soon as I say my partner needs to be different in some way, it is a criticism.


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## JonJonJon (Sep 25, 2016)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Nothing really. A few comments that it will get better once the kids get older (that is at least 13 years away), that is normal for couples with kids to experience this, etc....and a just a general unwillingness to do or try anything other than what we are doing. At this point, even a with a trip to Costa Rica coming up, I am so fed up with her level of participation in this process.
> 
> I stopped asking for sex, expecting sex, even hinting around sex with her about a month a go. We had a shower quickie a week or two ago. I am at a point where I would rather go without then have the same thing over and over and over again.
> 
> I will not participate unless it changes (the routine) that is. Am I being too harsh? I'm here because I am really open to almost anything.


I hate to tell you this - but being in pretty much the same situation for the past 20 years, it hasn't gotten any better.
It wasn't too bad the first 10 years of marriage but then things kind of dried up. I have spoken to my wife many times about it and she swears she still enjoys sex, but her actions shout louder than words. When I quit asking, she never seemed to even notice...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mary,
You would be a phenomenal therapist. 

Atlanta simply isn't ready to do what needs doing - which is to ask carefully worded questions in a non threatening manner. 

His priority at the moment seems to be reassurance, instead of truth. And that's ok, this is a difficult process and most folks aren't really well suited to navigating it. 

As far as his efforts to talk about this to date - they were mostly spontaneous/not well thought out. And she has gotten skillful at getting him to back off from the subject without her having to say anything of substance. 

And I say this next bit reluctantly but - there is other serious dysfunction in the marriage which has resulted in their having a minimal emotional connection. 





mary35 said:


> There is a third signal that he can send - or better yet bluntly and honestly state in a loving manner. That he wants to work together and fix things, that he has every intention of being there for her, but that there is a serious problem within their marriage that is hurting their relationship and they both play a part in that problem. There are natural consequences and natural threats to the marriage when serious problems are rug swept and not addressed and he can already see those consequences and threats in their marriage. And then be prepared to outline what they are and what he is worried about.
> 
> Men are human - and are allowed to say that when their needs are not met - they feel resentment, anger, and their loving feelings disappear quickly! When they walk around horny all the time - temptations are harder to fight. These are not threats - these are facts and natural consequences and natural threats to the marriage. Rejection over and over breeds contempt and feelings of insecurity. Nobody wants to feel this way and will start avoiding people and situations that cause them to feel this way. Fact! Right? Why is this any different in a marriage?
> 
> ...


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Wazza said:


> I'm struggling to see the difference between my first option and your third way. I just feel that, as soon as I say my partner needs to be different in some way, it is a criticism.


Maybe I misunderstood what you meant with your two options. I read them to be option 1 - the nuclear option - or tough love approach - change or I am leaving, and option 2 - the nice guy, lets fix things, but even if you don't I am staying with you. 

Really its just semantics - my third option is just saying that this problem in our marriage needs to be fixed, at this time I plan to stay with you, but honestly - I make no guarantees if things don't change, because there are natural consequences and threats to our marriage as long as we have this serious problem between us. I may fall out of love with you, you may resent me because I want sex so much and decide to leave me, etc. etc. Its phraseology, instead of saying she needs to be fixed, you are saying the problem needs to be fixed. And instead of saying I am going to end the marriage if its not fixed - the problem may end our marriage if WE (requiring effort and change from both parties) don't fix the problem. 

Wazza - the bottom line in my mind, is no matter how you phrase it - you are asking for change from her, and you chance her feeling criticized. You can't get around that. And in all of these kinds of situations - that have gone on long term - it is a given that the spouse doesn't want to change or they would have already. They have proven that with their long track record. And the 2nd option that you presented seems to me to just be a repeat of the dysfunctional dance the husband has been doing all along, that also has the long proven track record of failing. 

The real 2nd option, as I see it is to say I accept you as you are - I accept our sex life as it is - I wish it were different, but see that is not going to happen, and I am OK with that - and will fix the problem by not letting it be a problem to me. 

Does this make sense?


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

MEM2020 said:


> Mary,
> 
> Atlanta simply isn't ready to do what needs doing - which is to ask carefully worded questions in a non threatening manner.
> 
> ...


I agree totally with you. It is a difficult process and is also a hard skill to learn - to ask carefully worded questions in a non-threatening manner. This is why I strongly encourage professional help. Skilled professional help to help navigate this difficult process and address the emotional connection dysfunction. 

One of the issues with emotional connection is that many people really don't know what a good functional emotional connection is - because they have never experienced it. They don't even know or understand what they are missing. I know I didn't - until after we fixed our sexual dysfunction - which required us both to start talking and revealing our true thoughts and feelings that we had both kept hidden for so many years. Once I felt the bonding and the deep emotional connection - it was a real eye opener of what we had been missing out on for so many years. Sometimes when we regress - which we do now and then - I find myself craving it and desperate to get it back.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

2020hindsight said:


> But pizza is great! I need pizza in my life to feel happy, and I also definitely need my spouse to get excited about pizza and initiate pizza-ordering so I can feel loved. What if I send her to therapy for insight into why she doesn't like pizza? Will she become enthusiastic about pizza then? I can't stand it if she doesn't. I'm secretly planning to leave the marriage unless she shows some passion for pizza. Etc., etcetera zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


The problem with this pizza analogy is that anyone can go and have pizza anytime they want - and they don't need there spouse there with them to enjoy the pizza. Plus - one spouse did not vow to never ever eat pizza unless the other spouse ate it with them. And then found themselves in a situation where they craved pizza all the time - but was not allowed to have it cause the other spouse decided they don't like pizza. 

Perhaps, Atlanta's wife simply is a natural low-drive, and doesn't enjoy sex all that much - and never will. But honestly, I really have yet to hear of someone who's low drive is so simply explained. There are just too many elements, levels, and complications to explain this issue so simply. That is just my opinion and observation. 

Even if this was the case - there is still a major problem in the marriage - because the conflict of wants and desires creates an impasse that can not be solved and typically leaves at least one of the spouses very unhappy and resentful.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Does it make sense? No.

Let me elaborate. It makes sense subject to her:

- taking him at face value
- dealing threatened by the possibility of divorce
- being vested in the marriage long and deep enough to even consider the issue from his point of view

Up to a year ago I planned to torpedo my wife out of the blue, as a parting gift . The TAM peanut gallery managed to convince me to do the more honorable and conventional approach. Nonetheless, my wife:

- doesn't believe that it Will happen. 
- doesn't understand how the legal system works, ie she's convinced she can walk away with "her" house and "her" 401k. 
- doesn't feel threatened, as I'm not the complaining type person
- is not vested in the marriage. She finds it normal that it's 10:00 pm on a Sunday and her husband is playing with the cat instead of talking to her. 

I would be so bold as to say she doesn't understand at all where I'm coming from. Zero emotional connection with me or her daughters or her family. Major zombie.

These people can't be reasoned with. Over a period of a couple decades they have polished an awesome image and ignore anything that contradicts it. 

Talking with N will not fix anything. She'll stonewall and go back to her activities...the most difficult people to deal with are those who don't know what they don't know.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Atlanta - if your wife were here posting on this forum, what would she say about you? How would she describe you and your personality to us? What would she say about your marriage? Would she say you are presenting her unfairly, and that you are critical of her and any effort she makes to improve sexually is not appreciated or noticed? Who would she say has the dominant personality - you or her? Who would she say carries the biggest work load and decision making load concerning your family unit? What would she tell us is her biggest gripe about you and what is the one thing that she wishes you would change, but you refuse to do so? Would she tell us she is happy and content with your marriage and your relationship? Would she tell us that she thinks you both have a strong emotional connection - and that she feels safe in sharing anything with you? 

Share anything that you think will give us her perspective and her side of the picture. Try to be brutally honest - even if it puts you in a bad light.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You need to ask far more basic questions in the beginning... Questions that do not focus on them as a couple but general attitude questions:

- do you understand the concept of an emotional connection in an LTR
- how much of a priority is a healthy emotional connection to you
- do you understand the sexual nature of marriage

And so on. Not open ended fishing expedition questions but very pointed questions to determine how she feels about intimacy in general. If she gives the right kind of answer, then you can follow up with the kinds if questions Mary suggested.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

@Atlanta,

My father always said that not being able to, is no problem, can be fixed. Not wanting to is a big problem, cannot be fixed.

I see you are working on it, then I think with the above in mind, it does not matter if what you do is the right thing now, if you keep trying you will succeed and get in a better place!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

mary35 said:


> The problem with this pizza analogy is that anyone can go and have pizza anytime they want - and they don't need there spouse there with them to enjoy the pizza. Plus - one spouse did not vow to never ever eat pizza unless the other spouse ate it with them. And then found themselves in a situation where they craved pizza all the time - but was not allowed to have it cause the other spouse decided they don't like pizza.
> 
> Perhaps, Atlanta's wife simply is a natural low-drive, and doesn't enjoy sex all that much - and never will. But honestly, I really have yet to hear of someone who's low drive is so simply explained. There are just too many elements, levels, and complications to explain this issue so simply. That is just my opinion and observation.
> 
> Even if this was the case - there is still a major problem in the marriage - because the conflict of wants and desires creates an impasse that can not be solved and typically leaves at least one of the spouses very unhappy and resentful.


I agree about the severity of the problem, but the point I was making with the pizza analogy is that you can't just demand someone like something they don't like. The most you can demand is they cooperate. It's not fair to demand they like it. 

If there's a problem you can address, great. But I'm not sure there always is.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

mary35 said:


> T
> To Atlanta - my advice is to stop rug sweeping, stop the dysfunctional dance - at least your part of it. Tear down your walls and open yourself up to your wife. Start talking, and more importantly, start listening - listening with your ears, with your eyes, and with your heart. She is telling you things that you are are not hearing. Continue on with the therapist path. It will not be easy, but it is necessary if you want the kind of marriage and sexual relationship you crave. I can't guarantee that she will follow suit. And you should be prepared that you are going to upset her boat by stopping your part in the dance. She has become very comfortable in her safe walls - and you disturbing her comfort is going to greatly upset her. Just remember her change is in her hands alone. If she decides she can't or won't change - you will have some tough decisions to make. The advice to work on you is good advice. Make yourself attractive, be confident, and sexy, a good husband, a good lover, a good father, a good listener, a good communicator. Be the kind of man that she wants to keep around which may help her want to change to keep you.




This is extremely valuable advice. I would think about every one of these sentences and think about specifically what they mean in terms of actions you can do.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Valuable advice subject to her wanting to keep any man around... I'm not so sure this is the case for many women... 

I'm thinking WGTOW...


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Hello. I am still reading and re-reading some very good responses I have gotten. I also started the first chapter of No More Mr. Nice Guy. A lot of it hit home. Clearly I have some housecleaning to do...started last night in fact. 

On another note, N just found out that her sister's marriage is ending. That will have an impact on us because she had no idea it was even in trouble.....
@mary35 your advice has been tremoundously helpful. Really everyone's. May not have agreed 100% or wanted to look inward first but I am.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Just for kicks, why is her sister's marriage ending? 

Also, you can look inward all you'd like but ultimately she's the one that has to take action. Part of the allure of DIY books is to.present a general set of "cool dudes don't do X, Y, and Z" attributes and convince their audience that they are indeed guilty of X, Y, and Z.

Human behavior is gestalt, larger than the sum of its parts. The books focus on a few aspects that allegedly cause all kinds of problems. Maybe they do, to some spouses, but if it takes being Mr. Perfect to get laid, pardon the crass terminology, you may be barking up the wrong tree.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Wazza said:


> I'm struggling to see the difference between my first option and your third way. I just feel that, as soon as I say my partner needs to be different in some way, it is a criticism.


This. Especially if there is in fact CSA. Even the slightest hint at the marriage being threatened will send her into her own ego protection mode.

You want to make a bad situation worse? Lead her to believe that sex, the very thing she is also hiding from, and likely has all sorts of feelings of toxic shame, will end her marriage. That said, often times things have to be made worse before they can get better. 

If the stonewalling continues even after a heartfelt attempt at understanding, the only choice he will have besides living with it is telling her that he will no longer continue in a relationship with her being repulsed by having sex with him. 

What she does with that statement will be the measure by which he can truly make a decision.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Minority Report lab guy says...

If she knows divorce is off the table she'll continue to string him along. The moment she senses divorce is on the table she will file first to avoid the self perceived stigma of him having filed.

As a successful professional, it's safe to assume her self preservation neurons are on sabbatical.

Maybe Atlanta could bring up divorce once or twice to see her reaction. It would be an awesome psyops experiment...


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> Just for kicks, why is her sister's marriage ending?
> 
> Also, you can look inward all you'd like but ultimately she's the one that has to take action. Part of the allure of DIY books is to.present a general set of "cool dudes don't do X, Y, and Z" attributes and convince their audience that they are indeed guilty of X, Y, and Z.
> 
> Human behavior is gestalt, larger than the sum of its parts. The books focus on a few aspects that allegedly cause all kinds of problems. Maybe they do, to some spouses, but if it takes being Mr. Perfect to get laid, pardon the crass terminology, you may be barking up the wrong tree.


Ending due to....laziness, communication, I'm sure there are few more reasons I don't even know.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Who filed tho, he or she? I'm trying to get a feeling for common behaviors here...


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> Who filed tho, he or she? I'm trying to get a feeling for common behaviors here...


Being driven by the sister. She is he breadwinner. Marriage has been a struggle since day 1 (so I'm told). And she has not filed. Yet.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Marriednatlanta said:


> N is exhausted from working, childcare, household, everything else. Sex is the lowest thing on her priority list. She has had some trauma in her past and was possibly in experienced (more so than I knew 19 yrs ago). I have a much higher sex drive than she does (clearly) and so my frustration resentment has steadily increased over the years to present day. While in early years she could manage it all (and as I have said it started off fine) now there is just too much on her plate.
> 
> This scenario still makes sense to me bc of the frequency and the quality. My frustration/boiling point is that she seems to not want to fight through any of it to get to the other side (a great sex life). For example...rather than going downstairs to watch TV to RELAX, let's go in different bedroom and have some great sex after the kids are in bed and asleep, that should help with stess, sleeping, relaxing, our marriage, etc....this is just me suggesting ideas of course.
> 
> ...


Victims of CSA/rape are not all the same. Let's start with that. I know victims who run the gamut from doing very well to being very dysfunctional, and who experienced everything from what seems innocuous to what is horrifying to even hear about.

Everything you have written is consistent with a significant portion of women who are CSA victims. I am much less well informed on rape but it fits what little I know.

Many of those women have no or very little understanding of how they have been affected. They have little understanding of what is normal in marriages and sexual relationships because they only know the marriage they are in. The trajectory of your marriage is not only very similar to mine but to numerous other marriages I am aware of.

You describe the head turning and starfish duty sex. That indicates she is not happy, possibly even feeling distress or worse. Why would she want to confront her trauma knowing how difficult it is to even think about? Why would she want to do that with a goal of getting to _more sex_ when sex is not fun as is? Think about a food you really hate, and then imagine a goal of eating it more often. That food is by its very nature unpleasant, so you can't picture it being fun to eat any time in the future.

You assume she would want to achieve more sex in order to experience more physical pleasure and more emotional bonding. But if she is actually experiencing physical and emotional distress regarding sex (and touch and other attempts at emotional closeness) then she is looking at the situation very differently than you are. You can try to understand what her perspective may be, whatever the root causes of the problems, and that is good. Just don't use that to give her a pass on working to be a better spouse. All of us have the ongoing obligation to work at being a better spouse.

When things don't make sense, you don't have all the information yet. She may not be a CSA/rape victim though I am rarely wrong in spotting it. Whatever is going on is only important in helping you assess if she is on a course which could be helpful. Ultimately either she becomes the spouse you wanted and expected, or she does not. So your interactions with her should be biased more towards boundaries and expectations rather than diagnosing her.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

john117 said:


> Valuable advice subject to her wanting to keep any man around... I'm not so sure this is the case for many women...
> 
> I'm thinking WGTOW...


Many CSA victims end up deciding it is easier to get divorced than face trying to fix things. But it is better to get to the answer sooner rather than avoiding the topic and being in limbo for another 20 years.


----------



## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

mary35 said:


> The problem with this pizza analogy is that anyone can go and have pizza anytime they want - and they don't need there spouse there with them to enjoy the pizza. Plus - one spouse did not vow to never ever eat pizza unless the other spouse ate it with them. And then found themselves in a situation where they craved pizza all the time - but was not allowed to have it cause the other spouse decided they don't like pizza.
> 
> Perhaps, Atlanta's wife simply is a natural low-drive, and doesn't enjoy sex all that much - and never will. But honestly, I really have yet to hear of someone who's low drive is/ so simply explained. There are just too many elements, levels, and complications to explain this issue so simply. That is just my opinion and observation.


You've heard of one now. My whole life, I've been someone who doesn't "get" the whole sex thing, doesn't get much out of it, and never will. It's mind-boggling for me to hear people go on and on about sex as if it's so great...sort of like listening to someone talk about pizza as the greatest thing and insist on his spouse enjoying it as much as he does. That's the pizza analogy from my point of view. Or maybe, to be even more realistic, substitute a food that's dreary, like gruel, yet somehow inspires an inexplicable passion in one's spouse. 



> Even if this was the case - there is still a major problem in the marriage - because the conflict of wants and desires creates an impasse that can not be solved and typically leaves at least one of the spouses very unhappy and resentful.


I completely agree with you there. The spouse who provides sex on demand begins to feel unhappy and resentful. And the spouse who receives sex on demand wonders, where is the passion?, and becomes unhappy and resentful.


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

2020hindsight said:


> You've heard of one now. My whole life, I've been someone who doesn't "get" the whole sex thing, doesn't get much out of it, and never will. It's mind-boggling for me to hear people go on and on about sex as if it's so great...sort of like listening to someone talk about pizza as the greatest thing and insist on his spouse enjoying it as much as he does. That's the pizza analogy from my point of view. Or maybe, to be even more realistic, substitute a food that's dreary, like gruel, yet somehow inspires an inexplicable passion in one's spouse.
> 
> 
> 
> I completely agree with you there. The spouse who provides sex on demand begins to feel unhappy and resentful. And the spouse who receives sex on demand wonders, where is the passion?, and becomes unhappy and resentful.


Nice to meet you 2020. 

Because of 2020 hindsight, I will re-phrase my statement and say "many low drive situations are not so simply explained... but i know at least one person whose low drive is that simple, so it is possible!"

I know better than to make unqualified statements. :slap:


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thor,
There's a lot of reverse engineering that happens in human behavior. That occurs when I want a certain outcome and work backwards to find reasons that make it OK to get that outcome.

I will give you an anecdotal example of what I mean - but life is full of them. We have an office party including spouses and my coworker Joe brings his wife. 

Joe: 
The good:
- 6'2" tall
- Fairly smart in a niche area
- Fairly ambitious
- Top 10% in terms of income - maybe top 5%

The bad:
- below average looking - maybe a 4 on a ten scale 
- below average ability to read other people
- not charismatic or funny

Ah - now let's turn to Joes wife. I got all of two minutes with her so forgive me for my limited sketch.

Very attractive. If Joe is a 4, she is an 8. Hey - the reason this memory stuck is twofold:
- They were very mismatched physically 
- She said some astonishing things in 2 minutes

Joe introduces us and proceeds to: tell her that I'm (and yes it's true) the guy promoted him out of consulting, why he doesn't have to travel for work anymore. He went from a 4 night per week travel schedule to zero.

Then he says to us: I love being home full time.

And she says to me dead serious: I liked it when Joe travelled. I like having time to myself at night.

-----------
And I'm thinking - you just don't want to be around this guy. And he has such a hard on for you. Wonder what that is like. 

Was she a CSA victim - picked an easy mark for marriage - someone she could control by virtue of being twice as good looking?

Maybe.

Or maybe she just doesn't like sex. 

----------
But the bigger issue is that Joe - in his quest for social status - picked a partner who does NOT enjoy his company. Full stop. 
----------

Maybe I'm not wired quite right - but in general - if someone doesn't actually LIKE ME - I don't WANT to sleep with them. 





Thor said:


> Victims of CSA/rape are not all the same. Let's start with that. I know victims who run the gamut from doing very well to being very dysfunctional, and who experienced everything from what seems innocuous to what is horrifying to even hear about.
> 
> Everything you have written is consistent with a significant portion of women who are CSA victims. I am much less well informed on rape but it fits what little I know.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

2020,
Welcome and thank you for contributing.





2020hindsight said:


> You've heard of one now. My whole life, I've been someone who doesn't "get" the whole sex thing, doesn't get much out of it, and never will. It's mind-boggling for me to hear people go on and on about sex as if it's so great...sort of like listening to someone talk about pizza as the greatest thing and insist on his spouse enjoying it as much as he does. That's the pizza analogy from my point of view. Or maybe, to be even more realistic, substitute a food that's dreary, like gruel, yet somehow inspires an inexplicable passion in one's spouse.
> 
> 
> 
> I completely agree with you there. The spouse who provides sex on demand begins to feel unhappy and resentful. And the spouse who receives sex on demand wonders, where is the passion?, and becomes unhappy and resentful.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mary,
My brother in law and I both suffered from the same condition up to the age of 50: Testosterone poisoning.

It made us - overly aggressive - especially regarding marital sex.

But now - here we are in our mid fifties - lower T - nicer folks. Biology is powerful.




mary35 said:


> Nice to meet you 2020.
> 
> Because of 2020 hindsight, I will re-phrase my statement and say "many low drive situations are not so simply explained... but i know at least one person whose low drive is that simple, so it is possible!"
> 
> I know better than to make unqualified statements. :slap:


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM, I probably have NEGATIVE T-levels... 57, 20 lb over, non optimal sex life, and taking Propecia to keep my Einstein spec hair where it's supposed to be.

So, unless cycling 100 miles a week does miracles (kinda doubt it) I should be registering as much T as my lawn mower.

I'm voting for mind over matter here...


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> Thor,
> There's a lot of reverse engineering that happens in human behavior. That occurs when I want a certain outcome and work backwards to find reasons that make it OK to get that outcome.
> 
> I will give you an anecdotal example of what I mean - but life is full of them. We have an office party including spouses and my coworker Joe brings his wife.
> ...


There's not nearly enough info there to know if there is any psych issue at all there with either Joe or his wife. Which has nothing to do with OP's situation. You're trying to somehow undermine my opinion and observation that OP has described behaviors, experiences, and comments within his marriage which are 100% consistent with CSA (and possibly rape) and in no way inconsistent with CSA. What he describes is classic CSA, to the point I've wondered twice early in this thread if he is trolling us with faked ignorance. I believe he is genuine, I just say that to emphasize how he has ticked the boxes for a wife with CSA.

And he seems to tick the boxes of a Nice Guy who was a virgin before marriage. Which brings up another set of issues we've actually not really addressed on the thread much more than recommending a few books.

The bottom line may be the same with OP and your friend Joe, but the dynamics within those marriages sounds polar opposites. Marriednatlanta's wife generally wants to be "married" to him. She wants him to be everything a husband is _except_ sexually or emotionally intimate. Joe's wife just wants a very part time companion. MnA's wife doesn't recoil from his presence, she doesn't get irritated by him when they do functional family activities, she only retreats upon his approaches or bids for sexual or emotional closeness. Joe's wife doesn't like him being present more than a couple of days per week, and we have no indication Joe was being rejected sexually or emotionally when he was only home those few days.

As I've said numerous times, which was said to me here a few years ago, ultimately it doesn't matter what the root cause of his wife's behavior is. Either she is or is not an acceptable spouse to him. He has the right to his needs and desires. She has the obligation to recognize her dysfunctions and to make a strong effort to overcome them, especially if there is a history of trauma.

If she does have a trauma in her history, he needs some general idea so he can modify his strategy. Normally we'd tell a guy in a sexless marriage to bend her over and plow her. If she says no, then to tell her he intends to enjoy a normal sex life. We'd advise him to set up MC and invite her to come along. We'd advise him to set a fairly short timeline in which to see significant improvements in his marriage. Read and implement MMSL. All of those things will be counterproductive with the CSA victim. 

MC is still advised with CSA, but it will be a more neutral environment in terms of pointing fingers. And it will be a much more long term process. Sex should probably be taken off the table for a while. Without CSA/rape the opposite would be true, where the couple would be encouraged to have frequent sex. MC is completely different when there is CSA/rape.

She may love him and want to be married to him, but just has a serious dysfunction regarding sexual and/or emotional intimacy. Joe's wife just doesn't want to be around him in general.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thor,

Where's the post where you clearly differentiate between a woman with:
1. CSA and 
2. a woman who isn't that into sex or 
3. isn't attracted to their partner?

If you have made such a post and I missed it, just provide the post number. 

I have never seen anyone claim to be able to differentiate between those scenarios. 

And fwiw Atlanta has left - not just gaps - but huge gaps in his narrative. He referenced asking her for oral but has said nothing about whether she will accept it from him. 





Thor said:


> There's not nearly enough info there to know if there is any psych issue at all there with either Joe or his wife. Which has nothing to do with OP's situation. You're trying to somehow undermine my opinion and observation that OP has described behaviors, experiences, and comments within his marriage which are 100% consistent with CSA (and possibly rape) and in no way inconsistent with CSA. What he describes is classic CSA, to the point I've wondered twice early in this thread if he is trolling us with faked ignorance. I believe he is genuine, I just say that to emphasize how he has ticked the boxes for a wife with CSA.
> 
> And he seems to tick the boxes of a Nice Guy who was a virgin before marriage. Which brings up another set of issues we've actually not really addressed on the thread much more than recommending a few books.
> 
> ...


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

john117 said:


> So, unless cycling 100 miles a week does miracles


Quite the opposite I'm afraid.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Quite the opposite I'm afraid.


I asked my veterinarian (*) to check my T-levels but he said since you don't have any symptoms insurance won't cover it . 

(*) Not convinced he's a real doctor...

Now how do I get a Catrike?


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

john117 said:


> WorkingOnMe said:
> 
> 
> > Quite the opposite I'm afraid.
> ...


Why don't you pay for the test yourself?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The parts work as advertised, no symptoms of low-T, great energy levels, but I really gotta wonder about what the values . 

I might do just that just for fun, lots of places advertise tests etc for $100...


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

It might be interesting just to know for the heck of it!


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thor,
I want to be very explicit on this point. I am ONLY speaking as a mod if I begin my post by using the phrase: 'I am now speaking as a mod', 

All my standard posts are simply as a regular contributor on TAM. 

Therefore with regard to this discussion we are equals. As far as it goes - there are several professional mathematicians on TAM. I am not one of them. I do however understand that self selection bias can create a lot of distortion. That said, the women who self select to discuss their LD marriages only rarely cite CSA/or young adult SA/rape as the main reason their marriages are LD. 

I am aware the issue is complicated. And that in some cases a victim of SA may select a sexually incompatible mate, so they can minimize the amount they have to deal with their prior sexual abuse (SA). 

Thing is - IMO - the core issue isn't the SA, instead it is the fact they feel no desire for their partner. They can obtain treatment for the SA, but there is no treatment for a lack of desire/attraction. 





Thor said:


> There's not nearly enough info there to know if there is any psych issue at all there with either Joe or his wife. Which has nothing to do with OP's situation. You're trying to somehow undermine my opinion and observation that OP has described behaviors, experiences, and comments within his marriage which are 100% consistent with CSA (and possibly rape) and in no way inconsistent with CSA. What he describes is classic CSA, to the point I've wondered twice early in this thread if he is trolling us with faked ignorance. I believe he is genuine, I just say that to emphasize how he has ticked the boxes for a wife with CSA.
> 
> And he seems to tick the boxes of a Nice Guy who was a virgin before marriage. Which brings up another set of issues we've actually not really addressed on the thread much more than recommending a few books.
> 
> ...


----------



## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Thor,
> 
> Where's the post where you clearly differentiate between a woman with:
> 1. CSA and
> ...


Hello. I am not going to bore everyone with a "play by play" of what is happening but I will say this...just since posting this, reading the first few chapters of the Nice guy book and Married Man Guide book a few things have occurred:

* I am in a more honest place (with myself)
* N iniated intimacy this morning.
* It was better, more natural more 2 way
* I expressed some needs during in a no threatening way. It worked.

I don't even know what TROLLING is...and O is has always been on the table. For awhile for both of us then just for her.


----------



## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Mary,
> My brother in law and I both suffered from the same condition up to the age of 50: Testosterone poisoning.
> 
> It made us - overly aggressive - especially regarding marital sex.
> ...


Is this a real thing?? Testosterone poisoning??


----------



## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Hicks said:


> This is extremely valuable advice. I would think about every one of these sentences and think about specifically what they mean in terms of actions you can do.


 I agree. I am.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

No not really. It isn't something in the DSM. Let's just say that there is a level of aggression which is hard on your friends and family. This is an attempt to characterize such a thing in a humorous manner. 







Marriednatlanta said:


> Is this a real thing?? Testosterone poisoning??


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Good good and good.

A friendly tip you won't find in those books.

You can insist on a high level of engagement when you have sex. You don't get to comment on her arousal level.

The former she controls the latter she doesn't. 

I would never proceed if M2 was not fully engaged. That said she doesn't always get as turned on as I do. 






Marriednatlanta said:


> Hello. I am not going to bore everyone with a "play by play" of what is happening but I will say this...just since posting this, reading the first few chapters of the Nice guy book and Married Man Guide book a few things have occurred:
> 
> * I am in a more honest place (with myself)
> * N iniated intimacy this morning.
> ...


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I love to hear about positive steps of progress.. I pulled back from posting on TAM for awhile because it was discouraging to invest myself and having nothing come of it. I was beginning to feel pessimistic and jaded..

Stay with it Atlanta if it is working. Just remember it takes time to break old habits and form new ones. And set backs will happen. Stay focused on the emotional connecation building and the things YOU have control over. Build a solid foundation with her first. Open yourself up to her and hopefully she will reciprocate. If she does, THEN, together you can start working on building a better sexual relationship. Or you may find they come hand in hand.

Lay down your boundaries and stick by them. For example pity sex is not fullfilling or helpful for your goals so don't desperately accept it when offered. But loving engaged sex willingly offered for the purpose of connecting emotionally, even if she is not aroused or not interested in her O can be fullfilling and help with your goals. Again, as Mem is saying, try to be attuned to cues and pull back if feeling negative vibes from her. As much as possible try to make every sexual encounter a positive one for her in some way.

Just a warning - as you disturb her comfort zone more and more she may start resisting or pull away. Things might get rocky before they get better and you may feel discouraged as your progress seems to disappear. You will have to really try to stay connected and read her cues during that time - get into her head so to speak - while at the same time, give her space. Tricky, I know. Whatever you do - do NOT come across as pushy, needy, or desparate, and slip back into your own dysfunctional patterns. Whatever she chooses, you can still work on you. 

The emotional connection is crucial during this time. Don't ever cause her to think that your changes are about getting more sex only. It's about building a better, closers, and stronger relationship and marriage that will allow the sexual relationship to flourish naturally.

And very very important - be honestly appreciate and give positive reinforcement for every single step forward, no matter how small. This is essential. Refer back to my statement on why those who change - decide to change, i.e. benefits of changing outweigh consequences of staying the same. 

Tie the reinforcement to the emotional connection you get from sex with her, not the feel good sensations from sex. But, be careful to not overdo the reinforcement. There is a fine line between enough and too much. Too much is annoying and fake. The reinforcement does not have to be given immediately after - sometime the same day or next morning, etc is good. Some ideas- As she passes by pull her close, and say something honest like - you have the prettiest eyes, give her a quick hug and then carry on with whatever you were doing. Hand her a single flower and say, just because I love you or leave it with a note somewhere. Do something she has been after you to get done, but don't point it out or call attention to it, ever. Do your reinforcement casually, without calling attention to it, or the reason you are giving it and don't be looking for your own reinforcement from her. The idea you are presenting by the reinforcement is that you love and enjoy connecting with her and you want her to feel loved and connected too. PAVLOV DOG theory kind of thing. 

Also - don't get gung-ho and start pushing too hard and/or too fast. Slow progress is good. Give her time to adjust and build courage to take another step.. It took you a long time to get where you are at. It will take time to undo it and redo it right this time. 

OOPS - I think I am getting gung-ho and overzealous here. Sorry! I just got caught up in hearing some good news. Don't follow this particular lead. lol

Any luck with the sex therapist?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> * I am in a more honest place (with myself)
> * N iniated intimacy this morning.
> * It was better, more natural more 2 way
> * I expressed some needs during in a no threatening way. It worked..


In "Soul of a new machine", Tracy Kidder said something to the effect of: 

It's like pinball. You play the game well, you get to play the next one for free.

He meant minicomputer design, of course. But it's something that has stuck with me to this day, 30 years ago. 

The key will be to use it as a stepping stone for something better.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> Thor,
> 
> Where's the post where you clearly differentiate between a woman with:
> 1. CSA and
> ...


Every description OP has given has been a signpost of CSA. The behavior he describes is different than just the run-of-the-mill LD or emotionally disconnected wife. He even has mentioned two probable traumatic events in her early adulthood.

I don't know what your experience is with dealing with women who are CSA victims, but there is a qualitative difference in how they present compared to LD or emotional disconnection. While the most shallow descriptions may be similar, with little interest in sex with their husband, the difference is in the details. She is interested in doing all the things married people do _except those things involving physical and emotional closeness_. She turns her head during sex.

Anyhow, I've made my point that this is something OP should consider as a likely possibility, and so he should use care in how he approaches her. The landscape is full of landmines if she indeed has a trauma history.

I'll bow out now.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thor,
No need to bow out. My viewpoint is no more valid than yours. And to be clear: I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying he ought to approach this with a neutral posture as to the underlying cause. And yeah - he can likely get in her head without threatening her. Well - he can if he's able to relax and focus outwardly. 

And no offense intended but for a guy who has such good langauge skills Atlanta comes across as a bit low on the EQ side. A smart successful guy typically doesn't ask for the definition of a strong emotional connection.

He ought to triangulate. How is N with the kids, her parents and best friends. How about him. 

And so far, not a single reference to humor in this thread. Laughter is so powerful. And laughter is typically the result of people feeling very easy, natural around each other. 

It's easy for type A people to turn their marriage into one big 'time motion' study. 







Thor said:


> Every description OP has given has been a signpost of CSA. The behavior he describes is different than just the run-of-the-mill LD or emotionally disconnected wife. He even has mentioned two probable traumatic events in her early adulthood.
> 
> I don't know what your experience is with dealing with women who are CSA victims, but there is a qualitative difference in how they present compared to LD or emotional disconnection. While the most shallow descriptions may be similar, with little interest in sex with their husband, the difference is in the details. She is interested in doing all the things married people do _except those things involving physical and emotional closeness_. She turns her head during sex.
> 
> ...


----------



## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Thor,
> No need to bow out. My viewpoint is no more valid than yours. And to be clear: I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying he ought to approach this with a neutral posture as to the underlying cause. And yeah - he can likely get in her head without threatening her. Well - he can if he's able to relax and focus outwardly.
> 
> And no offense intended but for a guy who has such good langauge skills Atlanta comes across as a bit low on the EQ side. A smart successful guy typically doesn't ask for the definition of a strong emotional connection.
> ...


I only asked for examples of a strong emotional connection because I am trying to be open to any and all ideas. I know the fundamentals of a strong emotional relationship...was looking for some "I tried [insert anything] and it worked" etc...

Low on the EQ? Means what?


----------



## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I only asked for examples of a strong emotional connection because I am trying to be open to any and all ideas. I know the fundamentals of a strong emotional relationship...was looking for some "I tried [insert anything] and it worked" etc...
> 
> Low on the EQ? Means what?


EQ as opposed to IQ. Google can explain it infinitely better than I can, but it is somewhat like your social/emotional IQ.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Atlanta,
EQ - is a mix of trais, skills and knowledge. Being on TAM has greatly increased my skills and knowledge. 

For example I have learned to read M2's facial expressions fluently. And often when she's feeling anxious or guilty about me I step to - and real softly say: Look at me - tell me what you see. 

We are only 4,000 generations into speech. By my estimate we have 200,000 generations of body language and facial expression skills. 

It was like learning another language - face reading and face talking. 

You have at least 6 channels to work with:
- Text (the actual words used)
- Volume
- Pacing
- Tone
- Body language (non facial)
- Facial expression

Most folks - don't read/write with all 6. And folks like me, who have good vocabularies - often lean WAY WAY to hard on the text channel. 




Marriednatlanta said:


> I only asked for examples of a strong emotional connection because I am trying to be open to any and all ideas. I know the fundamentals of a strong emotional relationship...was looking for some "I tried [insert anything] and it worked" etc...
> 
> Low on the EQ? Means what?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

And marital EQ has additional components to it.

One way to deconstruct an interaction is to consider how much of it is:
- About yourself
- About your spouse
- About both of you (an us theme)
- About something external to the two of you

Some interactions are extremely one sided. When those are voluntary gifts, I refer to them as: 'All about you' events.

Thing is, the physical aspect of a marriage is the same. M2 and I are both consistently doing: 'All about you' physical type stuff. 

M2 gets a lot of back rubs and long hugs that are of this type. I get a lot of back scratches and sexual - contact - of this type.

None is requested, all is volunteered. 

Maybe this ought to have its own quotient(Q). Physical quotient - (PQ). Touch is SO powerful. It can be great or good or - as a recent poster from Australia has expressed - toxic - for a marriage. Her husband gropes her aggressively and she hates it. Her H has totally destroyed her trust. She feels anxious in his presence due to all his groping. 





Steve1000 said:


> EQ as opposed to IQ. Google can explain it infinitely better than I can, but it is somewhat like your social/emotional IQ.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My cat scored a 98% PQ... -2 for occasional play biting or pretend clawing. He's very touchy feely. Merely feeding him requires a belly rub, picking his 22-23 lb up and placing him in front of his food bowl, then petting him while he eats. If he sleeps alone he'll be teed off for a week.

My wife maintains a single digit PQ


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

After reading these many pages, it is not clear to me if OP has had any discussion with his wife about how important this lack of intimacy has been, and how important it is to solve it.

Have such discussions taken place? Does she acknowledge there is a big problem here? Or do you merely exchange frustrations in the occasional moment but otherwise covertly conspire to avoid talking about big issues?

Not saying discussions fix anything. Maybe they can help, depending. But, I got the feeling several pages ago you were still working up the nerve or looking for an ideal time to break the news to her that you are somewhat unhappy (when the truth is much much bleaker).

If she is open to coming together, then maybe Esther Perel's "Mating in Captivity" will open some eyes into how easily intimacy can fade, and give you something to think about.

Like many of us, OP you sound as if you are embarking on a project to change something in her to make your needs get met. If so, I empathize and see it as a place many including me get stuck. I'm finding hope in framing my project differently, as I read Richard Schwartz's "You are the one you've been Waiting For". After 20 years of this sort of life, it might be worth a pause to read and see if the understanding of how it all is to work might be flawed. As you become more vocal about her not meeting your needs, she will feel burdened and turned off more. The only thing that can work is for her to understand she can freely choose to care or not care, but that you are going to be just fine either way. That book, and one by James Hollis called "Through the Dark Wood, Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life" are helping me see and feel my happiness is less tied to her than I had thought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

PieceOfSky said:


> After reading these many pages, it is not clear to me if OP has had any discussion with his wife about how important this lack of intimacy has been, and how important it is to solve it.
> 
> Have such discussions taken place? Does she acknowledge there is a big problem here? Or do you merely exchange frustrations in the occasional moment but otherwise covertly conspire to avoid talking about big issues?
> 
> ...


Hi... I see the point you are making to him,. I also think that if a mutual, passionate, frequent sex life with a partner is a core need of his, then that aspect of his happiness is COMPLETELY tired to his wife. Because that is what marriage is. How do you/the authors suggest otherwise?


----------



## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

john117 said:


> My cat scored a 98% PQ... -2 for occasional play biting or pretend clawing. He's very touchy feely. Merely feeding him requires a belly rub, picking his 22-23 lb up and placing him in front of his food bowl, then petting him while he eats. If he sleeps alone he'll be teed off for a week.
> 
> My wife maintains a single digit PQ


That's a pretty teed off cat!


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Livvie said:


> I also think that if a mutual, passionate, frequent sex life with a partner is a core need of his, then that aspect of his happiness is COMPLETELY tired to his wife. Because that is what marriage is. How do you/the authors suggest otherwise?


Divorce and find someone who want to have frequent mutually passionate and satisfying sex with you. Stop trying to force your current spouse to be the person you share that with.


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Hi... I see the point you are making to him,. I also think that if a mutual, passionate, frequent sex life with a partner is a core need of his, then that aspect of his happiness is COMPLETELY tired to his wife. Because that is what marriage is. How do you/the authors suggest otherwise?


There's no suggestion anyone should just "live without".

To the contrary, it seems both Schwartz (and his Internal Family Systems therapy, IFS), and Hollis (who draws significantly on Jung's ideas) see suppressing/exiling/snuffing-out parts of ourselves as a mistake with very large consequences over time. I think they see it as essential to correcting such mistakes, before you can gain any lasting traction on problems of relating to each other.


I'm not quite there yet. But, I do feel relief already. I'm someone who has at time felt deeply lonely and crushed by my wife's continued rejection and turning away from me over the last decade or more. Looking back, I see I sought from her something she could not give, and wasted much time and felt much pain that could have been avoided. I'm not good at explaining it, but her (apparent) opinion of me -- of my desirability and suitability -- mattered too much to me, because parts of me were missing. I needed to know MYSELF -- for my own reasons and through my own experience separate from hers -- that I was and am worthy of love, affection, respect, admiration. The better I am at that, the less hurt I feel from her withdrawal. And, the more at ease I am as I find my way out and to a better life (whether "out" means out of this marriage or not doesn't weigh on me like it used to, even though more and more ending my marriage seems like a necessary step).


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

You are having married sex THAT many times after 30 years of marriage? 

You crazy Americans! 

Seriously I hope you can get it together. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

mary35 said:


> I love to hear about positive steps of progress.. I pulled back from posting on TAM for awhile because it was discouraging to invest myself and having nothing come of it. I was beginning to feel pessimistic and jaded..
> 
> Stay with it Atlanta if it is working. Just remember it takes time to break old habits and form new ones. And set backs will happen. Stay focused on the emotional connecation building and the things YOU have control over. Build a solid foundation with her first. Open yourself up to her and hopefully she will reciprocate. If she does, THEN, together you can start working on building a better sexual relationship. Or you may find they come hand in hand.
> 
> ...


Spoke on the phone with the ST today. Pondering next steps.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

PieceOfSky said:


> After reading these many pages, it is not clear to me if OP has had any discussion with his wife about how important this lack of intimacy has been, and how important it is to solve it.
> 
> Have such discussions taken place? Does she acknowledge there is a big problem here? Or do you merely exchange frustrations in the occasional moment but otherwise covertly conspire to avoid talking about big issues?
> 
> ...


Thanks! I'm more optimistic. The no more mr nice guy book is helping. A lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Thanks! I'm more optimistic. The no more mr nice guy book is helping. A lot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can you elaborate on how it is helping? Also on what steps you are pondering and how you felt about the therepist?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

PieceOfSky said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > Hi... I see the point you are making to him,. I also think that if a mutual, passionate, frequent sex life with a partner is a core need of his, then that aspect of his happiness is COMPLETELY tired to his wife. Because that is what marriage is. How do you/the authors suggest otherwise?
> ...


Oooh, I get it now. Your wife's opinion of you doesn't need to be YOUR truth. You are worthy and you don't need her validation for that to be so!


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Visit the NMMNG forums at No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group

And don't show your wife the book or talk to her about it. The book is for you, independent of your marriage.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I am sorry you find yourself here Atlanta. I am almost a newlywed, but I married as a HD wife, a LD husband, and it is our struggle for sure. So I do understand. 

In your case, you have gotten tons of detailed advice about abuse etc, of which I have no knowledge or experience, so I repsecfully leave that advise to those who do.

To me, I see a possible solution path from a simpler side.

I would change the focus of sex so that you are always ready to try something new, a technique that is known to pleasure a woman. Perhaps the book "She comes first" or others like it would be of help to you.

Your skillset is very limited. It's time to change that. And as a virgin, who did you have left as your teacher when you got married? Someone who is LD, and who also has little experience. So I would say, arm yourself with knowledge of how to please a woman in bed. Between now and your trip, educate, educate, educate yourself. On your happy anniversary trip, try to blow her mind sexually. Make every experience geared toward giving her wonderful pleasure. Pleasing her will turn you on a ton too and everyone benefits.

Plus it's imperative to bring back the affection in your daily life. Tell her you miss holding her, and cuddling her and kissing her etc, AND START DOING IT, and never stop again. You both need it. It will make your hearts happy and also make it a more conducive atmosphere for how your new approach to your sexual relations is going to be.

Educate yourself and then practice on her. Let her prepare herself for the fact that your new focus is her pleasure. As I see it, you can't end up any worse than you are now. I wish you the best!!!!


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

mary35 said:


> Can you elaborate on how it is helping? Also on what steps you are pondering and how you felt about the therepist?


I see myself, or my actions, in each chapter. It's not a 100% match...but it's close enough. Pondering if I suggest to wife we start meeting with her, do I go it alone, can we afford it, will she be open to it, do we need it?

I think the most important thing I have come to realize is I need to say what I'm thinking and not bury it -- that only causes resentment. I need to tell her what my needs are, what I am thinking, etc...in all areas not just the bedroom. Still lots of room to grow.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Spicy said:


> I am sorry you find yourself here Atlanta. I am almost a newlywed, but I married as a HD wife, a LD husband, and it is our struggle for sure. So I do understand.
> 
> In your case, you have gotten tons of detailed advice about abuse etc, of which I have no knowledge or experience, so I repsecfully leave that advise to those who do.
> 
> ...


Good advice. We even spooned last night for the FIRST time in a long time -- and I HATE spooning.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Atlanta,
Why have you chosen not to describe yourself from your wife's perspective? What she likes/doesn't like about you?

Farside might be a good role model for you. He was solely focused on getting the best result. We banged him up pretty good in the process - but constructively. Or mostly so. 

Lot of guys want the result without having to share their part in the mess they are in. 

At least half of a sexually broken marriage lies outside the bedroom. And a sex therapist isn't typically very helpful with that stuff.

Why do you hate spooning?




Marriednatlanta said:


> Good advice. We even spooned last night for the FIRST time in a long time -- and I HATE spooning.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Here's a sample description from my dear wife:

Fat
Ugly
Uncultured
Cares about junk food drink and sex only
Does not help around the house
Is lazy at work and is not ambitious
Spends all his time with his phone

Depending upon observer bias, she's right


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Atlanta,
> Why have you chosen not to describe yourself from your wife's perspective? What she likes/doesn't like about you?
> 
> Farside might be a good role model for you. He was solely focused on getting the best result. We banged him up pretty good in the process - but constructively. Or mostly so.
> ...


Atlanta:

First, role model may be a stretch, although I appreciate the comment from Mem. You need to understand that he (among others) was INSTRUMENTAL in helping me in rekindling my marriage. 

Second, if he asks a question, there is a solid reason for it. There is another poster who came here several months ago who complained of a sexless marriage. It took several months and several hundred posts to uncover that he was actually obese. Not that I am a hater, but attraction is a fickle thing. 

Another example: a few years ago, an NFL team had 3 turnovers (+2 overall), scored 10 points from them, and had 300 yards passing. They still lost. Why? Because the opposing team put up over 250 yards of rushing, and owned time of possession. Imagine looking at only the losing teams stats. You would be stumped as to why they would lose. With analysis, you need the complete puzzle, not half of the pieces.

Third, you have no emotional connection with your wife based on what you have posted here. You may get minor improvements in physical intimacy without the emotional intimacy, but it is highly unlikely for you to _sustain_ it.

What are your wife's hopes and dreams? What does she value about you more than anything? What does she want that you are not delivering? What do you respect about her? Ego will stop you from answering those questions properly. Oh, and all of the answers to those questions? You need to let her know through actions that you have heard her.

Lastly, as for the possibility of sexual trama... My wife lost her virginity by date rape. In our rekindling, we had to overcome that hurdle. It was not easy, and she was resistant at first. However, it became easier when she realized I actually loved the person she was, inside and out. You need to create an environment which will get her to open up about it. And you need to be completely supportive. It may be nothing...or it may be everything.

Long winded...yes. Answer Mem's questions, brother. And lay bare everything here lest you receive well intentioned but misguided advice due to not seeing the complete picture.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The post below demonstrates a level of ballsiness rarely seen in the modern world.

I think it only fair to point out that core values produce long term results. One reason John is experiencing a grand slam in terms of his daughters - success - is that he stayed focused on being a great father - partly because he didn't get overly focused on maximizing his income. So while it's true that he isn't as ambitious (coin operated) as J2 might like, it's also true that he is enjoying an enormous reward for having a more balanced view of life.





john117 said:


> Here's a sample description from my dear wife:
> 
> Fat
> Ugly
> ...


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

I didn't read all the thread, but here's my experience in a similar situation: I communicated numerous times about my dissatisfaction with no change. Eventually emotionally withdrew. My hail mary was to have a "I feel checked out" talk with her. After which she filed for divorce. 

Now we are separated, living together while it sorts out and, god willing, I'll be done in the next two months. 

Some people can turn it around, some people thrash around for YEARS trying to turn it around (me!) based on the few successful case studies on this site. I have all the respect in the world for MEM, but I think his approach is the exception, not the rule. Whenever I've either withdrawn, or made a hard stance it's always gotten worse. 

I think it's probably hopeless, to be honest. So you can hang in, or move on. But it's unlikely you'll ever get the connection and love you want from your wife.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

seeking sanity said:


> Whenever I've either withdrawn, or made a hard stance it's always gotten worse.


Same here. It takes motivated cooperation from both to turn it around, and only passive resistance or mere indifference to keep it all unraveling.

At first, each step away hurt like hell. After awhile, awareness of the pattern is inescapable. What I worry about is not the pattern continuing, but -- before I make my dash for the exit -- being fooled into thinking there are signs of her heart changing. Part of withdrawing and detaching is not giving the other the opportunity to feign a change of heart and keep one trapped by indecision.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Hi all. Quick update.....Costa is about three weeks away. I have read the NMMNG (2xs). I have half way through the married guys guide to sex. I have accepted some basic things that have helped things in the bedroom....in no more particular order...

* I needed to be more honest about my needs and wants (not just in the bedroom)
* I need to take care of some my needs and not feel guilty (not sexual)
* I need to do some house cleaning of my own (various bad habits that result in toxic shame)
* I need to ask for what I want in the bedroom
* I need to keep working on me -- get in better shape, eat better, drink less soda, etc....avg shape now -- have some work to do

Ok, well, that's it for now. I'm leaving out some stuff Im sure but that's the news from the ATL.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Hello all I am back. I have the big "50" in a week...we have semi improved our quantity but I am desperately craving more quality - as in - "please participate in this" with me. Has anyone else figured out an effective way to improve quality....???


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Hello all I am back. I have the big "50" in a week...we have semi improved our quantity but I am desperately craving more quality - as in - "please participate in this" with me. Has anyone else figured out an effective way to improve quality....???



Direct talk about bleak things has been the only thing that has made a difference. And only temporarily so.

What is the nature of the quality that has been missing lately? Do you understand why "more quality" has not been freely given? Have you had direct talks about quantity and/or quality.

In my case, her behavior during sex was pretty extreme (literally falling asleep, after spending quite a bit of time bringing her to orgasm; if not falling all the way asleep, then barely touching me saying "do you want to do anything" after she "had hers", whilst being fairly non-responsive; in all cases apparently foggy drunk).

(Lest anyone think I might have "persuaded her" while in that state, I assure you she was fully awake and functioning when she agreed we'd finally have sex, and I waited a good long while alone as she got her self "ready", which apparently included self-medicating.)

I explained to her that I had stopped initiating because of the hurtful manner in which she behaved. I challenged her to consider that she might have been digging in her heels, passively resisting giving me something that she new I wanted precisely because she resented me or hated me or was holding something against me that I was powerless to do anything about (since I was unaware of what it was, and she was apparently unable or unwilling to tell me).

I tried to convey that I still found her to be an attractive woman, but it is impossible to respond sexually, enthusiastically, when one's alleged partner in life falls asleep while we are supposedly making love. 

I directly conveyed that her way of finally having sex with me was causing me to lose any remaining connection I had to her, whereas sex used to be a bonding experience for me.

The effect at first appeared positive, as her receptiveness to my eventual expressed interest was significantly respectful and polite, and she seemed to care about my experience during. But, that only amounted to sex two or three times over about six months. Things have been deteriorating since... nothing but a few elusive "rainchecks". Even during those two or three relatively positive experiences, she still was not up for something that used to be no problem for her (with me or partners prior), despite me expressing my desire. So, even then it felt like she was passively resisting/punishing me, IMHO... I saw the improvement, but it only went so deep.

I hope you are situated farther from that brink than I. If so, I'd advise being positive and encouraging, lighthearted. I'd advise being direct about the change you'd like to see, in any case. (Of course, consider the source here -- my track record is not so good.)

I'd also again encourage you to read or listen to Esther Perel's book, Mating in Captivity. If you and your wife are working on the problems openly together, then I think it's a positive book, perhaps worthy of a listen together. You might also read some of @badsanta's threads/posts, as he seems to advocate taking "no" in a light-hearted fashion and projecting confidence that the couple will soon enough have a fun and satisfying experience together. My guess is a generally unshakeable positive attitude is the only sort of thing that has a chance to work in the long run, but there are times where -- if the situation is feeling pretty bleak or is heading that way -- scary/sad predictions about the course you are on together must be discussed. No idea how to balance it.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

PieceofSky, I don't recall anything about your particular situation, but your wife sounds like she is a victim of some kind of trauma from her younger years. Self-medicating in order to be able to face having sex with her husband is kind of a classic coping strategy.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Hello all I am back. I have the big "50" in a week...we have semi improved our quantity but I am desperately craving more quality - as in - "please participate in this" with me. Has anyone else figured out an effective way to improve quality....???


A new partner!

Or acceptance.

Tough choice.

Things won't change. You have been trying for so long. Whats the plan when you realize its never going to change?


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

PieceOfSky said:


> Direct talk about bleak things has been the only thing that has made a difference. And only temporarily so.
> 
> What is the nature of the quality that has been missing lately? Do you understand why "more quality" has not been freely given? Have you had direct talks about quantity and/or quality.
> 
> ...



Thanks. My "story" is not too different from most of the other Hs on here....I do have a pretty positive outlook. I'v been working on this for a year or so.....still room to grow/improve. With the "50" facing me in a few days I decided to check back in. Also to get a refresher on how to approach the topic of quality or creativity etc...


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

PieceOfSky said:


> Direct talk about bleak things has been the only thing that has made a difference. And only temporarily so.
> 
> What is the nature of the quality that has been missing lately? Do you understand why "more quality" has not been freely given? Have you had direct talks about quantity and/or quality.
> 
> ...





chillymorn69 said:


> A new partner!
> 
> Or acceptance.
> 
> ...



Things have changed enough in the last 10-11 months. I think we are on the verge of a breath through. Lol. Fingers crossed that's for sure.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Things have changed enough in the last 10-11 months. I think we are on the verge of a breath through. Lol. Fingers crossed that's for sure.


Read She Comes First before CR if you can....remember....blow her mind.


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## cma62 (Jul 31, 2010)

MnA.....You are a very patient man. 

That’s true love I guess.

I hope she is as patient and appreciating of you as you are of her.

I truly get when wives are abused, ignored, cheated on and not given the support as an equal.....but I will never understand as in your case....you are patient, compassionate and treat her like gold......how is she not ravishing you.....🤔🤔


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Spicy said:


> Read She Comes First before CR if you can....remember....blow her mind.


I read it awhile ago with little to no results.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

cma62 said:


> MnA.....You are a very patient man.
> 
> That’s true love I guess.
> 
> ...



Well I am the eternal optimist. I also have work to do on myself, soo, no need for the nuclear option. We are inching towards a break through and it started with me NOT doing all the work in the bedroom. Another TAM posted about their routine and it was vertually identical to ours. I recently stopped being the one to "do" all the activity. Allowing her to make some of the first and second and even third moves. It is a slow process and it was a little jolting for her I know -- but she has figured out the old routine is off the table.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

UGH. I have no idea how this happened. 6 weeks w/o. I am soo beyond frustrated. What really pisses me off is the # of times she has said no. I have tried sooo hard to create the right time, place, etc...and still it's NO. Venting. But, trust me, the talk is coming. [email protected]!


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Marriednatlanta said:


> UGH. I have no idea how this happened. 6 weeks w/o. I am soo beyond frustrated. What really pisses me off is the # of times she has said no. I have tried sooo hard to create the right time, place, etc...and still it's NO. Venting. But, trust me, the talk is coming. [email protected]!


What is the point? You honestly think "the talk" is going to have more impact now than it had all the previous times.
You can introduce her to your girlfriend. Or you can introduce her to your divorce lawyer. Those are the only conversations that are likely to make any difference.
I suggest the lawyer because it is much more ethical than cheating. Even if you divorce her you still have to live with yourself.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> What is the point? You honestly think "the talk" is going to have more impact now than it had all the previous times.
> You can introduce her to your girlfriend. Or you can introduce her to your divorce lawyer. Those are the only conversations that are likely to make any difference.
> I suggest the lawyer because it is much more ethical than cheating. Even if you divorce her you still have to live with yourself.


Given some of the progress we have made...not willing to start a nuclear option. But, also, not willing to go backwards. The talk will be pretty simple.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Given some of the progress we have made...not willing to start a nuclear option. But, also, not willing to go backwards. The talk will be pretty simple.



In most cases I wouldn't recommend moving to the guest room, but I think it could work in your case provided you phrase it as transitioning to divorce. Say you can't live in a platonic relationship and that you feel you're wasting your life being married to a woman who is not attracted to you. You are going to move into the guest room so you can think about how to move forward. Tell her that you'll move back if she commits to a truly intimate relationship again with no backsliding. But tell her that you'll be thinking of what's right for your future, and that might mean divorce. Ask her to think about how she will deal with the future if it doesn't work out. Ask her to think about how she will fix her car or whatever if you're not there. Ask her to think about what she'll tell her friends and family and how she'll respond to their questions about why it couldn't be fixed. And most importantly, ask her how she'll explain to her kids why the relationship failed and why she couldn't make it work. 

Without going nuclear, this might provide the shock she needs to get back on track. And if it doesn't, you've set the groundwork for the transition. If it doesn't work out, you can confidently tell your friends, family, and kids how hard you tried to make it work. Will she be able to say the same thing?


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Given some of the progress we have made...not willing to start a nuclear option. But, also, not willing to go backwards. The talk will be pretty simple.


Why? What has she shown to improve what you want/need? By having some really awful sex slightly more often? She isn’t into you like that anymore. Who knows why, could be a litany of reasons. What matters is that it’s not more sex you want, it’s that you want her to want you. And that will never, ever happen. Ever. She can only pretend.

You know what ex wives who never had sex with their husband do when they get divorced? Yeah, and a lot of it.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

wilson said:


> In most cases I wouldn't recommend moving to the guest room, but I think it could work in your case provided you phrase it as transitioning to divorce. Say you can't live in a platonic relationship and that you feel you're wasting your life being married to a woman who is not attracted to you. You are going to move into the guest room so you can think about how to move forward. Tell her that you'll move back if she commits to a truly intimate relationship again with no backsliding. But tell her that you'll be thinking of what's right for your future, and that might mean divorce. Ask her to think about how she will deal with the future if it doesn't work out. Ask her to think about how she will fix her car or whatever if you're not there. Ask her to think about what she'll tell her friends and family and how she'll respond to their questions about why it couldn't be fixed. And most importantly, ask her how she'll explain to her kids why the relationship failed and why she couldn't make it work.
> 
> Without going nuclear, this might provide the shock she needs to get back on track. And if it doesn't, you've set the groundwork for the transition. If it doesn't work out, you can confidently tell your friends, family, and kids how hard you tried to make it work. Will she be able to say the same thing?


Interesting idea. Very interesting. Honestly, there have been a nite or two (not a ton) but a few where I have contemplated a temporary relocation to the guest room. I have laid the ground work for the conversation. As I said, it will be brief to the point. Will probably start with something like "Hey, not sure how you do it....but I can't go 6 weeks w/o. Can you agree to 1x a week? Great." If I get the slightest BS about "timing, tired, etc....." then, she gets the "talk". And yes, once we have 1x a week agreed to, I am expecting a lot more in the creativity side.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Maybe she just doesn't care. That is a hard thing to accept but maybe accept it you must. She doesn't care about this. Personally your speech is too nice and just not honest. Nothing is going to change if you are not honest with yourself or her. 

"Wife I have finally accepted that you just don't care about me and physical intimacy. Like in you don't give a ****. It was really hard to come to that conclusion. I really thought you loved me enough and this was just some sort of personal issue with you, but I have been denying what in my heart I know is true. You think of me as a platonic friend. Since that is the case I really need to reevaluate why we are married. I didn't marry to have a friend. I can do that without vows. We don't need to be married to be platonic friends."


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Maybe she just doesn't care. That is a hard thing to accept but maybe accept it you must. She doesn't care about this. Personally your speech is too nice and just not honest. Nothing is going to change if you are not honest with yourself or her.
> 
> "Wife I have finally accepted that you just don't care about me and physical intimacy. Like in you don't give a ****. It was really hard to come to that conclusion. I really thought you loved me enough and this was just some sort of personal issue with you, but I have been denying what in my heart I know is true. You think of me as a platonic friend. Since that is the case I really need to reevaluate why we are married. I didn't marry to have a friend. I can do that without vows. We don't need to be married to be platonic friends."


So I have had the "conversation" in my head a few times. Sometimes it is harsher (your version) sometimes it is my version (softer). I know what I need to do. Just need to say it now. Thanks for the feedback. I will use it to form my narrative.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Herschel said:


> Why? What has she shown to improve what you want/need? By having some really awful sex slightly more often? She isn’t into you like that anymore. Who knows why, could be a litany of reasons. What matters is that it’s not more sex you want, it’s that you want her to want you. And that will never, ever happen. Ever. She can only pretend.
> 
> You know what ex wives who never had sex with their husband do when they get divorced? Yeah, and a lot of it.


So, the one thing I need to do, that I haven't done....just because we did it 20 years ago and now I am a little fuzzy on the details....I need to ask about her past. Really understand what the hell happened etc...bc it is definitely still affecting our sex life. I will start by sharing my past (limited experience, waited till married, etc...) to get her to feel comfortable. 

Is what your saying actually true about x-wives? Or are you kinda making that up?


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Interesting idea. Very interesting. Honestly, there have been a nite or two (not a ton) but a few where I have contemplated a temporary relocation to the guest room. I have laid the ground work for the conversation. As I said, it will be brief to the point. Will probably start with something like "Hey, not sure how you do it....but I can't go 6 weeks w/o. Can you agree to 1x a week? Great." If I get the slightest BS about "timing, tired, etc....." then, she gets the "talk". And yes, once we have 1x a week agreed to, I am expecting a lot more in the creativity side.


It seems like the groundwork has already been laid for the move out discussion. Start with, "You know, it's been 6 weeks w/o and that's got me really questioning if this relationship can work. I was hoping the earlier discussion about 1x/week would bring improvements, but it seems things are even worse than before. I don't think I can convey how important intimacy is for me. For my own sanity, I'm going to move into the guest bedroom and think about what is right for my future. ..."

I would not recommend starting with proposing 1x/week because she'll just agree and then not fulfill the agreement like she did before. Maybe she'll do it 1-2 times, but then the drought will start over again. She needs to feel some serious consequences and realize the marriage is over unless she starts acting like a wife instead of a roommate. Hopefully if she realizes the time for 2nd chances is over, she'll have an epiphany that intimacy needs to be part of a marriage.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

wilson said:


> It seems like the groundwork has already been laid for the move out discussion. Start with, "You know, it's been 6 weeks w/o and that's got me really questioning if this relationship can work. I was hoping the earlier discussion about 1x/week would bring improvements, but it seems things are even worse than before. I don't think I can convey how important intimacy is for me. For my own sanity, I'm going to move into the guest bedroom and think about what is right for my future. ..."
> 
> I would not recommend starting with proposing 1x/week because she'll just agree and then not fulfill the agreement like she did before. Maybe she'll do it 1-2 times, but then the drought will start over again. She needs to feel some serious consequences and realize the marriage is over unless she starts acting like a wife instead of a roommate. Hopefully if she realizes the time for 2nd chances is over, she'll have an epiphany that intimacy needs to be part of a marriage.


This is real life...and I have room to improve myself still. But, Yes. I get your point. I may ask for 2xs a week bc I know she is thinking 1x is enough. I think we are leaning in not out. The trend line over a 1 year is more positive then negative but 6 weeks w.o is not option anymore. I should have nipped this in the bud 5 weeks ago.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Is what your saying actually true about x-wives? Or are you kinda making that up?


Absolutely positively true. Not in all cases, but in many. Sometimes (not as often as you wish), the woman is uninterested in sex regardless of the partner. More of the time, she simply is not attracted to her current partner. She married him for other reasons. For a while she could pretend or force herself to do it with him. But over time the lack of attraction wears her down and then she can't pretend any longer. Stinks to be there. I am there too. It is all too common.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Marriednatlanta said:


> So I have had the "conversation" in my head a few times. Sometimes it is harsher (your version) sometimes it is my version (softer). I know what I need to do. Just need to say it now. Thanks for the feedback. I will use it to form my narrative.


I'm sorry dude this is a brutal realization to come to. Maybe you need to accept that you just don't do it for her, doesn't mean you can't do it for someone else. I posted this on another thread but I can't find it. I will rewrite it here. 

I read a post from a guy on SI and it really changed my thinking about this situation (sexless marriage). He said to paraphrase -

My wife stopped having sex with me, I was upset but I thought well she has just changed, change of life, she will no longer have sex. I love her and I want to stay with her, besides that we have a good marriage so this is something I have to accept. 10 years went by and we didn't have sex. A year later I found out she just cheated. Then I understood, it wasn't that she no longer wanted to have sex, it was that she no longer wanted to have sex with me. 

That was one of the most painful things I have ever read on these boards. It totally changed my thinking about this forever. 

Here is the thing, that guy thought he had a good marriage besides the sex part, but the truth is his marriage was missing a fundamental element of why people get married. His marriage was broken, it was always broken for a long time. His mistake was not addressing the brokenness or leaving. I would never want to end up like that guy. Something is wrong in your marriage. If your wife can't fix it then you are in danger at least in my mind. She may not even know it but there is a healthy sexuality that she doesn't experience, and there may be someone down the road who can bring that out of her. Because of that you are vulnerable. She is too. For whatever reason she had decided not to give this part of herself to you. But that means there is a part of herself that can still be given to someone else. It's a scary thought but unhealthy people do unhealthy things. 

I no longer believe it's possible to live long term in a sexless marriage. Maybe some do but to me it is Russian roulette, it pretty much unsustainable. Something to think about.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I'm sorry dude this is a brutal realization to come to. Maybe you need to accept that you just don't do it for her, doesn't mean you can't do it for someone else. I posted this on another thread but I can't find it. I will rewrite it here.
> 
> I read a post from a guy on SI and it really changed my thinking about this situation (sexless marriage). He said to paraphrase -
> 
> ...


Very much something to think about.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Absolutely positively true. Not in all cases, but in many. Sometimes (not as often as you wish), the woman is uninterested in sex regardless of the partner. More of the time, she simply is not attracted to her current partner. She married him for other reasons. For a while she could pretend or force herself to do it with him. But over time the lack of attraction wears her down and then she can't pretend any longer. Stinks to be there. I am there too. It is all too common.


That is where I am at.

Took a very long time to recognize.

Confusing me first was the belief that surely she too wanted to close the intimacy gap, which had both a physical and non-physical component. Mix in heaping doses of blame thrown my way that triggered a reaction in me to seek out what I needed to change about myself and atone for before I was deserving of her reaching across the gap. 

It was helpful to hear a friend say it did not seem like she truly underneath the hurtful behavior loved me. It was important to see her behavior’s net result — me feeling lonely and unloved and undeserving literally year after year, nearly starting a third ****ing decade.

I understand now she does not want to repair our relationship, she just fears being divorced. 

And it is not that she turned asexual. She even informed me recently she much prefers to masturbate. 

All those years looking for a key make sense. I had no hope of finding one — there was no lock to be unlocked. She just didn’t want to let me in.

OP, don’t assume she is open to truly looking for answers. Pay attention to clues revealing whether she truly wants to connect, or simply wants to maintain the distance at all costs — including wasting your life in service of her dishonesty and/or lack of courage to live authentically.


Just throwing this out there, and hoping your situation is not so dire — but, 

If her mind and heart is like my wife’s, understand there is a cost of “not playing along” with the charade of “uhm, yes there’s a key, you’ve just not looked hard enough for us”. That cost is she will find it hard to justify faking a connection and being open to romance and sex. And you will find it impossible to desire any sort of intimacy with her. That cost was paid a little more with every talk and step away I took.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> *OP, don’t assume she is open to truly looking for answers*. Pay attention to clues revealing whether she truly wants to connect, or simply wants to maintain the distance at all costs — including wasting your life in service of her dishonesty and/or lack of courage to live authentically.


OP

You may be looking for answers, she isn't. She's knows what's going on, she just won't tell you.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

sokillme said:


> I'm sorry dude this is a brutal realization to come to. Maybe you need to accept that you just don't do it for her, doesn't mean you can't do it for someone else.


I think you're right on the money with the part about understanding a reality here. She is who she is. Her sex drive is what it is. The reasons don't matter, and she isn't going to change now simply because of one more conversation about it!

OP is, imho, thinking she has the same basic logic or psychology or belief system he does. But she doesn't. Years and years have proven she has a very different mindset. She is not going to be convinced she is wrong.

The second part is perhaps not quite correct in terms of implication. OP may not do it for her, but that doesn't mean somebody else would turn her on. She may have a significant reason for not being interested, and it may have nothing to do with who she is with. It could be that nobody would turn her on. OP should not feel substandard because his wife is uninterested in sex with him.

The final point is 100% correct! There are uncountable people out there who will be very turned on by OP and would love to be in a serious (or casual) relationship with him.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

Just read thru the thread and wondered to myself.... "Will he be back next year with another... "Not there yet but getting better, up to 2x a month pretty frequently" post? Bet so.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> Just read thru the thread and wondered to myself.... "Will he be back next year with another... "Not there yet but getting better, up to 2x a month pretty frequently" post? Bet so.


Well.....you were pretty much right. Not sure how you called it -- but, yes, she realized I was about done and basically it has been (or is) 1x a week. It is quick and requires as little as possible from her. 

I have also lost 30lbs (down to 205) and feel great. I have been re-reading NMMRNG and the Guide to Married Man Sex book. Maybe its time for the nuclear option.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Married,

I just read through your thread which has personal relevance for me and was wondering.

Is your W still in love with someone from years ago, it's not always obvious but when a woman is dumped by the love of her life she will sometimes marry a plan B sort of guy and live semi-happily for decades. 

What often happens both on this website and in my experience is that the OM can turn back on that relationship with a single email even after 20 or more years.

Is your W in a workplace affair which can be the easiest to conceal from the husband and are so convenient because they are always together, I've seen some that went on for 20 years silently. I would suspect an older man who was presented to you as a mentor or that your W talked alot about and then went quiet.

Is your W sexually interested in women.

Tamat


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Well.....you were pretty much right. Not sure how you called it -- but, yes, she realized I was about done and basically it has been (or is) 1x a week. It is quick and requires as little as possible from her.
> 
> I have also lost 30lbs (down to 205) and feel great. I have been re-reading NMMRNG and the Guide to Married Man Sex book. Maybe its time for the nuclear option.


Is she still orgasming only 10% of the time?

Did you go to a sex therapist for help?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

TAMAT said:


> Married,
> 
> I just read through your thread which has personal relevance for me and was wondering.
> 
> ...


Not interested in W...as far as I know. I have mulled it over for sure. Don't see the other part of your questions applying either. No oppty. We know each other pws for our cells. Not a shred of a sign of anything out of the ordinary.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Lila said:


> Is she still orgasming only 10% of the time?
> 
> Did you go to a sex therapist for help?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Possibly less to be brutally honest with myself. The "routine" has devolved into pretty much whatever takes to achieve O (for me) and then its in essence over. No need to expand here but I think its just allows her to say "we have sex every week".

No on the ST. I thought we were making progress so I backed off on having that conversation and then life happened and we got busy etc and semi on track. I kept thinking -- "this time will better, I will ask for Z or X" and every time I do (or did) there is/was always reason for her not to do it. I'm kinda rambling but the bottom line is that we are again stuck in a terrible routine that allows her to say "you said you wanted sex once a week and I have been doing that and you are still not happy??"


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

While I am routinely criticized for my blunt matter of fact posts on this subject, I really think that some of you guys, and girls for that matter, that are in bad sex, low sex, sexless marriages may want to listen. 

Now folks, I have never actually been in this situation, oh I have made mistakes in my marriages for sure, but there is a simple reason. I will not stand for it. I won't say that the fact that sex has always been good and frequent has not keep me in bad marriages way longer than I should have been, but I have or would accept any of these scenarios. 

For men, it shakes out like this. Some women are not sexual, and some woman are not sexual with you. But you can bet that they could be sexual with someone else. 

In speaking with many men and woman about this it shakes out like this. Most woman like sex, some like it a lot. 

However, for what ever reason they either loss or never really had any real attraction to their husbands. It is just a fact. 

In this situation, OP has lost weight, does not sound like he is bad in bed, and has really tried to make things better. But one thing he has not done is realize that his wife does not like sex with him and she is not attracted to him. 

Everyone will say that my opinion is just too simplistic but really it is not. OP in this thread has lost weight and is not doubt more attractive, he has read all the book, so what is the problem? 

He is sure that his wife is not having an affair, he is not unattractive. I would suggest that the problem is not with him, unless he has some type of unattractive beta qualities that he has not written about. 

Same thing for women in sexless/bad sex/low sex marriages. It is not your fault that your husbands are either 1) bad at sex if you have tired to teach them, 2) low drive, 3) asexual or closet gay. You did not cause that, they did. 

So based on all the, mostly women, and a lot of men that I have spoken to about this, the only way to fix it is divorce if you want to be happy and honorable. Or open marriage if you dare and they accept, or cheating if you want some type of sexual life....

This thread of a guy that appears to have done everything right and he is still stuck with once a week pity sex that he basically hates and it little better than masturbation. 

Tell me where I am wrong. If you accept this type of life it is on you. If you divorce you stand a good chance of finding a partner that not only enjoys sex but enjoys sex with you...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You're wrong because it doesn't happen overnight. It takes time, and after a few years and kids, things get a lot harder to "I won't stand for it". Not in many woman friendly family courts at least. You think you can fix it, sometime some things improve for a bit but the paradigm shift doesn't happen.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Possibly less to be brutally honest with myself. The "routine" has devolved into pretty much whatever takes to achieve O (for me) and then its in essence over. No need to expand here but I think its just allows her to say "we have sex every week".
> 
> No on the ST. I thought we were making progress so I backed off on having that conversation and then life happened and we got busy etc and semi on track. I kept thinking -- "this time will better, I will ask for Z or X" and every time I do (or did) there is/was always reason for her not to do it. I'm kinda rambling but the bottom line is that we are again stuck in a terrible routine that allows her to say "you said you wanted sex once a week and I have been doing that and you are still not happy??"


I recommend you try the sex therapist before going the route of divorce. Don't let it be said you left no stone unturned. 

If she won't go or it doesn't fix the incompatibility then you can prep for divorce. You can throw a Hail Mary pass before filing and ask for an open marriage. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

OP,

If your W hasn't been actively cheating on you for years I'd be shocked, unless there is some big piece of information about your relationship you haven't shared.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> Tell me where I am wrong. If you accept this type of life it is on you. If you divorce you stand a good chance of finding a partner that not only enjoys sex but enjoys sex with you...


I don’t understand what you mean by “it is on you”, or what value you intend to offer by saying it. At first read, it sounds judgmental and dismissive of context. Maybe I misunderstood.

Of course one is free to leave. Given enough time and pain an honest, thoughtful, introspective person can develop the insight and wisdom that keeps one in touch with what is and is not likely to ever change. Having achieved clarity and possessing a capacity to take self-interested action does not mean leaving is the obvious best option all things considered. It’s a difficult choice. It sucks to be in those shoes, with imperfect knowledge and limited options. One lives with the consequences, and only lives once.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

No fears OP after another 10 years like this your sex drive will diminish and you'll be fine. She is who she is and you'll never fix it. 

You can't make a decision so you'll linger on.......


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Married,

What may also be the issue is that she can't ask for the kind of sex she actually enjoys from you since you're her husband. 

Out of shame or embarrassment she can't tell you that she is turned on by whatever type of sexual activity she was involved in before you. It may be her most natural and comfortable way of reaching orgasm. Everything else about those relationships before you was horrible except for the sex. Everything about her relationship with you is great except for the sex.

She may have been able to develop passion for you early in the relationship when she is the hysterical bonding stage of new love, but that's not sustainable long term.

I say this from my personal experience because I believe that my Ws most natural orgasm style is to masturbate while talking/gossiping with someone in person or on the phone, and it's something I don't enjoy and also something she would not want to share with me. It also goes back to her first sexual experiences that she told me about. 

Tamat


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

barbados said:


> OP,
> 
> If your W hasn't been actively cheating on you for years I'd be shocked, unless there is some big piece of information about your relationship you haven't shared.


Am i the OP? Sorry wasn't sure who that is directed at? But, assuming its me, no, really don't see it. There is nothing in her behavior that would remotely suggest it. And trust me -- Iv checked. No hidden texts, cell, emails, etc...very low tech kinda person (my DW). 

Just don't think that is on the table.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

barbados said:


> OP,
> 
> If your W hasn't been actively cheating on you for years I'd be shocked, unless there is some big piece of information about your relationship you haven't shared.





TAMAT said:


> Married,
> 
> What may also be the issue is that she can't ask for the kind of sex she actually enjoys from you since you're her husband.
> 
> ...


This is good food for thought. I need test these waters some with some probing questions. That conversation is happening this Sunday to be exact.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Lila said:


> I recommend you try the sex therapist before going the route of divorce. Don't let it be said you left no stone unturned.
> 
> If she won't go or it doesn't fix the incompatibility then you can prep for divorce. You can throw a Hail Mary pass before filing and ask for an open marriage.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Yeah...I think some therapy would be good. I think there is some unresolved issues in her past that in essence BLOCK her from enjoying sex in general.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Marc878 said:


> No fears OP after another 10 years like this your sex drive will diminish and you'll be fine. She is who she is and you'll never fix it.
> 
> You can't make a decision so you'll linger on.......


A harsh reality but there is truth in your post. I am aware of the clock.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Sorry man but you’ll keep hoping she’ll get it but......,


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Hoosier said:


> Just read thru the thread and wondered to myself.... "Will he be back next year with another... "Not there yet but getting better, up to 2x a month pretty frequently" post? Bet so.


Your post has always stuck with me....yes, some slight improvements - but a fundamental gap still exists. I am back.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Your post has always stuck with me....yes, some slight improvements - but a fundamental gap still exists. I am back.


You have been treated like this for 20 years, i think, and two years since you posted... 

You are back because you refuse to see reality. Many have probably said on this thread, that your wife is not into you. 

She loves you like a brother, or a dog, but not like you deserve. She is not into you sexually and she never will be. 

I don't why you stay, but it is a mistake frankly, this will never change... 

It is time to divorce and try to be happy....


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think the op doesn't know it yet but he's going to wake up in 5 years and realize that none of this work was really worth the end result or the effort it'll take to get there.


Twenty years later plus four @Marriednatlanta, how many more are you up for?


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Personal said:


> Twenty years later plus four @Marriednatlanta, how many more are you up for?


I don’t know. I read these posts and get motivated. I also realize I can not change my DW. I can change my behavior, looks, attitude, etc...I can become my best self. So to speak.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I don’t know. I read these posts and get motivated. I also realize I can not change my DW. I can change my behavior, looks, attitude, etc...I can become my best self. So to speak.


NO, NO, NO... What, you want to jump through more hoops for your wife? You are kidding right?

You are good enough to deserve far better treatment than you are getting. You deserve to be treated better than a dog. I mean, you get that don't you.

You are already better than good enough for this woman. Can't you see that?

I promise you one thing, if you divorce you will not regret it.

You have got to find your balls, and you have to keep them attached. The way you change your behavior is get a divorce...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

OP,

Kindly, how are there 384 responses without action to improve?


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> OP,
> 
> Kindly, how are there 384 responses without action to improve?


There were/are some good ideas. Most of which I took to heart. Read the NMMNG, was more direct in communication (on going), started taking better care of myself (exercise, fitness) and no, I was not morbidly obese. Sadly I am still at a huge impasse of me being HD and her being LD. And I'm beyond frustrated currently.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Totally in a friendly way; I know it's got to be hard. 

Hang in there!


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> I promise you one thing, if you divorce you will not regret it.


How can you promise that? How can you possibly know what he will or won't regret?


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

MIA, did you ever get your wife to go to a sex therapist? Did you ever have the discussions that maybe she wants a type of sex she was afraid to tell you since you are her husband? Did you ever find out if there was something in her past that keeps her from enjoying sex?

Does she ever masturbate and O that way?


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

jlg07 said:


> MIA, did you ever get your wife to go to a sex therapist? Did you ever have the discussions that maybe she wants a type of sex she was afraid to tell you since you are her husband? Did you ever find out if there was something in her past that keeps her from enjoying sex?
> 
> Does she ever masturbate and O that way?


MIA = me...I get it. 

1. No. It got better (a little)
2. No. Got close but never really dug in deep.
3. Not yet. This is by far #1 priority but we are really trapped with COVID and kids and homeschooling soo that sucks.
4. IDK. I think not.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> NO, NO, NO... What, you want to jump through more hoops for your wife? You are kidding right?
> 
> You are good enough to deserve far better treatment than you are getting. You deserve to be treated better than a dog. I mean, you get that don't you.
> 
> ...


This is good to hear. Looking for them as I type...so to speak.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Sorry I am late to this thread. What exactly do you want your wife to do specifically? What do you need her to do and how often for you to be happy?


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Meet me half way. Participate in our sex life. Be a willing partner. Have fun. Bring something new to the table. Flirt with me. Take a chance. Try something new occasionally....a few times a week. That's a general recap.


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## hubbyintrubby (Jul 5, 2019)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Meet me half way. Participate in our sex life. Be a willing partner. Have fun. Bring something new to the table. Flirt with me. Take a chance. Try something new occasionally....a few times a week. That's a general recap.


How many of these things have you sufficiently received from your wife since you were first here a handful of years ago?


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

hubbyintrubby said:


> How many of these things have you sufficiently received from your wife since you were first here a handful of years ago?


You know...enough progress was being made that I thought it would get better. But on a collective basis - since this posting was started. Not enough.


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## hubbyintrubby (Jul 5, 2019)

Marriednatlanta said:


> You know...enough progress was being made that I thought it would get better. But on a collective basis - since this posting was started. Not enough.


WAS being made? What happened to make that change or revert? 

So not enough. What happens what not enough is too much? What does that look like to you?


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

jlg07 said:


> did you ever get your wife to go to a sex therapist? Did you ever have the discussions that maybe she wants a type of sex she was afraid to tell you since you are her husband? Did you ever find out if there was something in her past that keeps her from enjoying sex?
> 
> Does she ever masturbate and O that way?





Marriednatlanta said:


> MIA = me...I get it.
> 
> 1. No. It got better (a little)
> 2. No. Got close but never really dug in deep.
> ...


So, why don't you work on this NOW before throwing in the towel -- what could it hurt if you are already feeling like this?


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

hubbyintrubby said:


> WAS being made? What happened to make that change or revert?
> 
> So not enough. What happens what not enough is too much? What does that look like to you?


Not sure I completely understand the question but I will try to summarize in a brief recap.

Made the post in 2016...as we were approaching a 20yr mark. I had booked a 1 week trip to Costa Rica and was starting to realize how unhappy I was -- specifically in the bedroom. As a somewhat desperate measure, I started to google everything I could. That process led me to TAM - where I posted the original message. I was very grateful for all of the feedback. It opened my eyes to several things that I was doing that were not helping the situation. I read the NMMNG book (2xs). I started to be more direct with my communication. I started to listen more and talk less and stopped getting soo wrapped up in what was "next" on the list to do vs being more present, asking how her day was, how was work, etc....I had work to do on myself (short version).

Over the next 4 years (till now) the frequency was slightly better. We had a few "reset" button conversations because we were still getting to that point of being very unhappy -- me in the bedroom, her everywhere else. 

I hope any other married guy understands this next part -- but when things are getting slightly better and your not fighting etc...and the you have the oppty to have sex with your DW, the last thing you really want to do is blow up in the middle of the act. If that makes sense. 

So for us (for me), I allowed, and continue to allow our sex routine to primarily revolve around what her desires are because in most cases, I don't want to NOT have sex when she is in the mood and or willing. I think that will only make sense to a married guy with a LD spouse. 

I am back here on TAM because my frustration level has gone back to 100 because we can't get out of our own way. And if we follow what she is comfortable with -- it will be 100% what she will do (and won't). In the end, our my basic needs met - yes. But there is soooo much more we missing out on. That is why I am not going down the nuclear option. I still believe there is room for me to grow and improve and for her to grow and improve in this specific area. 

Does that help....?


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## hubbyintrubby (Jul 5, 2019)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Not sure I completely understand the question but I will try to summarize in a brief recap.
> 
> Made the post in 2016...as we were approaching a 20yr mark. I had booked a 1 week trip to Costa Rica and was starting to realize how unhappy I was -- specifically in the bedroom. As a somewhat desperate measure, I started to google everything I could. That process led me to TAM - where I posted the original message. I was very grateful for all of the feedback. It opened my eyes to several things that I was doing that were not helping the situation. I read the NMMNG book (2xs). I started to be more direct with my communication. I started to listen more and talk less and stopped getting soo wrapped up in what was "next" on the list to do vs being more present, asking how her day was, how was work, etc....I had work to do on myself (short version).
> 
> ...


It does and it doesn't. The "changes" you keep citing seem more like placation to me more than anything. Scraps thrown around so that someone can say they're doing something, then foreseeably reverts to the old way, the way that keeps you coming back here.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

hubbyintrubby said:


> It does and it doesn't. The "changes" you keep citing seem more like placation to me more than anything. Scraps thrown around so that someone can say they're doing something, then foreseeably reverts to the old way, the way that keeps you coming back here.


That is very valid to a point. I can't say there has been no progress. But I am more motivated to have a blunt conversation with my DW. The current theme of the threads and their respective responses has motivated me.


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## hubbyintrubby (Jul 5, 2019)

Marriednatlanta said:


> That is very valid to a point. I can't say there has been no progress. But I am more motivated to have a blunt conversation with my DW. The current theme of the threads and their respective responses has motivated me.


Good, motivation is good. 

What is plan B? Plan C?..............


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

hubbyintrubby said:


> Good, motivation is good.
> 
> What is plan B? Plan C?..............


I don't have one. Yet.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

Like I predicted....you are back. How did I know you would be? Because you talk ALOT about how this is unacceptable, (I totally agree that your complaints are valid) whine to others, and then do nothing to change the situation. I feel for you dude! Completely! I got on here originally for just the same kind of problem, ended up spending he majority of my time in the Infidelity section (not saying that is your problem) but I was willing to DO something. 
BottomLine: You have what you have. What you have is what you are going to have (with minor variances for short period of times) the rest of your married life. If that is acceptable to you. Great! You are going to have lots of time to do the stuff you like to do, except sex of course, be me time should be abundant so take the time and run with it! 
If your current level is not acceptable, then you and only YOU, can do something about it. But please, either choice you make, you and you alone make, live with it and quit complaining. There is nothing anyone here can do for you if you are not willing to .....do.
Good luck dude. Sucks that you are in this situation, even worse is you can remove yourself if you want to, but you dont. No dishoner in staying married, if that is what you want, but it comes with a price. Either its worth it or it isnt


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

What?
This is 4 years old. 
This has been going on for four years?
Obviously this woman is NOT sexually attracted to and appears fine with NEVER having intimacy with the person she married....ever again. 
I can't imagine not being with someone who wanted me physically, who would crave me and be upset if we stopped having sex. 

Posts like this get on my nerves. 4 years should have had a resolution. Divorce, you open up the marriage and sleep with others, you flat out getting to the bottom of this, getting her to a doctor, therapists, finally finding out about her past. I thought a read a post from OP ONE YEAR later saying he needs to find out about her past....when he said the same thing a year prior. 
WHAT? You still having talked her about that?

Ok, I am sorry I read this thread.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

hinterdir said:


> What?
> This is 4 years old.
> This has been going on for four years?
> Obviously this woman is NOT sexually attracted to and appears fine with NEVER having intimacy with the person she married....ever again.
> ...


Life is busy complicated etc...and progress was being made just reaching another point of it stalling out....so I come back for more input and motivation. Being candid.


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## hubbyintrubby (Jul 5, 2019)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Life is busy complicated etc...and progress was being made just reaching another point of it stalling out....so I come back for more input and motivation. Being candid.


I get the progress being made then stalling out again from your perspective, but it's way too broken record to be workable at a certain point to the majority of us looking from the outside in. 4 years man. That's a long long time in the scope of life. 

You've received tons and tons of workable "input" as you've called it, and most of us have seen you stand still, even if it looks like progress to you.

We're all busy, man. Life is busy for all of us. Remove that from the excuse list post-haste. That cannot be a reason things are not changing. It just can't.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

4 years with incremental progress is enough for me to stay in the marriage vs starting over IMO. Just going through a rough spot and I know I need to accelerate things in the bedroom.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Hoosier said:


> Like I predicted....you are back. How did I know you would be? Because you talk ALOT about how this is unacceptable, (I totally agree that your complaints are valid) whine to others, and then do nothing to change the situation. I feel for you dude! Completely! I got on here originally for just the same kind of problem, ended up spending he majority of my time in the Infidelity section (not saying that is your problem) but I was willing to DO something.
> BottomLine: You have what you have. What you have is what you are going to have (with minor variances for short period of times) the rest of your married life. If that is acceptable to you. Great! You are going to have lots of time to do the stuff you like to do, except sex of course, be me time should be abundant so take the time and run with it!
> If your current level is not acceptable, then you and only YOU, can do something about it. But please, either choice you make, you and you alone make, live with it and quit complaining. There is nothing anyone here can do for you if you are not willing to .....do.
> Good luck dude. Sucks that you are in this situation, even worse is you can remove yourself if you want to, but you dont. No dishoner in staying married, if that is what you want, but it comes with a price. Either its worth it or it isnt


And this is why TAM is useful. It inspires those that have LD spouses or just need the motivation to take things the next level. I know what I need to do and I am committed to doing it (even during this crazy lockdown).


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Marriednatlanta said:


> 4 years with incremental progress is enough for me to stay in the marriage vs starting over IMO. Just going through a rough spot and I know I need to accelerate things in the bedroom.


Listen, lots of folks have kind of jumped on you and rightly so. Unless you are pulling our chains with your two sentence replies, and flippant attitude, why come here.

If you really want a normal and fulfilling sex life it will not be with your wife, it just won't. That has been explained to you many times.

So either man up, divorce your wife, or live a celibate life...


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

I guess where you have me is the "four years with incremental progress" line. I guess there is some progress if you measure in millimeters. Hey, just say, "I have decided I love my wife and my life, just the way it is. I know I could have more, but this is good enough for me." We will all respect that, your life your choice. Heck I know a couple where they havent had sex in decades, both are happy enough, works for them, I respect that. But you come on here and say "I WANT CHANGE!" Then do nothing to change, then try blowing smoke up our butt that things "have improved over the last four years" They havent and you havent. 

My counselor after working with me for three years following my divorce that left me bleeding on the deck, told me "Hoosier, you do realize that you are a very strong person." I could of fell over. This woman had watched me cry like a baby many many times. I sure didnt feel strong. But what I think she meant was that I had listened to her and others, and had ACTED. I didnt sit around and wring my hands wishing for a change, I did stuff. Man I am so glad I am strong because Limbo sucks the soul dry.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

marriednatlanta, what you describe is consistent with Child Sex Abuse or possibly other traumas (rape during teen years, abusive parents, etc).

Regardless, she is who she is, and either your marriage is acceptable or it is not. If it is not acceptable, it is not acceptable. In which case don't put up with it! Small, minor, temporary changes are not real. They are not lasting, and they don't indicate any change to who she is.

My sense is she is a trauma victim, probably CSA, and you are a Nice Guy. This is the perfect storm of a marriage.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Got some questions.

How old are your kids, and how old are you and your wife?
What activities do you have going on in your lives that are so time consuming? STRONGLY consider simplifying your life. Tip if you have kids in traveling sports teams - walk away from that crap. Chances are you kids aren't THAT good at sports to justify the huge time commitment to travel teams.
Are you the type of guy that initiates by asking? Or do you just "go for it"? Is it possible that your seduction skills suck? Since there's no way to put this delicately, is it possible that you aren't good at sex? No disrespect intended - but you should assess yourself honestly about this IMHO.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

If it hasn’t vastly improved and you haven’t made solid changes to improve this situation - it’s probably not going to get better.

if you want it to improve then divorce her. She has no intention of considering your feelings. You’ve waited way too long to stand up to her and say “I don’t like the way you’re treating me! You aren’t participating like a wife!”

get stronger! You’re way too weak in the relationship.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Thor said:


> marriednatlanta, what you describe is consistent with Child Sex Abuse or possibly other traumas (rape during teen years, abusive parents, etc).
> 
> Regardless, she is who she is, and either your marriage is acceptable or it is not. If it is not acceptable, it is not acceptable. In which case don't put up with it! Small, minor, temporary changes are not real. They are not lasting, and they don't indicate any change to who she is.
> 
> My sense is she is a trauma victim, probably CSA, and you are a Nice Guy. This is the perfect storm of a marriage.


I think there is some trauma in her past....I was def. a prototype for NICE GUY. I have worked at it and I think I have made some changes. More work to do obviously.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Beach123 said:


> If it hasn’t vastly improved and you haven’t made solid changes to improve this situation - it’s probably not going to get better.
> 
> if you want it to improve then divorce her. She has no intention of considering your feelings. You’ve waited way too long to stand up to her and say “I don’t like the way you’re treating me! You aren’t participating like a wife!”
> 
> get stronger! You’re way too weak in the relationship.


I would agree with there needing to be a shift in the balance of whose needs are being met during sex. I plan to explain that to her shortly. Our routine (whatever its called) is 100% built around what she will do and while I do get to climax...I am only getting to climax. That is not a enough.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Got some questions.
> 
> How old are your kids, and how old are you and your wife?
> What activities do you have going on in your lives that are so time consuming? STRONGLY consider simplifying your life. Tip if you have kids in traveling sports teams - walk away from that crap. Chances are you kids aren't THAT good at sports to justify the huge time commitment to travel teams.
> Are you the type of guy that initiates by asking? Or do you just "go for it"? Is it possible that your seduction skills suck? Since there's no way to put this delicately, is it possible that you aren't good at sex? No disrespect intended - but you should assess yourself honestly about this IMHO.


 We are in our early 50s with kids in the house. No travel sports teams. Sometimes I ask, sometimes she invites me into the shower (an example) sometimes it just happens naturally. My skills are average. With a willing partner they would be improve because we would be trying new things....


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

Marriednatlanta said:


> We are in our early 50s with kids in the house. No travel sports teams. Sometimes I ask, sometimes she invites me into the shower (an example) sometimes it just happens naturally. My skills are average. With a willing partner they would be improve because we would be trying new things....


Yeah, my x use to do the same thing. Heck she would jump into the shower in the mornings with me. Then I figured out that she jumped in because she could give me a hand job then use it is an excuse in the evening. "I just took care of you this morning!" Simpler for her, leave me crying for intimacy, she didnt care.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> 4 years with incremental progress is enough for me to stay in the marriage vs starting over IMO. Just going through a rough spot and I know I need to accelerate things in the bedroom.


I am all for trying, but this is really snail pace. I think you are in denial about the state of your marriage. Maybe there is small incremental progress, or maybe she is just doing it to keep you from making any drastic moves.
If you are in 50s, then this also might be a matter of menopause and decreased libido.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

WandaJ said:


> I am all for trying, but this is really snail pace. I think you are in denial about the state of your marriage. Maybe there is small incremental progress, or maybe she is just doing it to keep you from making any drastic moves.
> If you are in 50s, then this also might be a matter of menopause and decreased libido.



Pre Meno is a factor. And she has admitted that she has a low libido and went to her MD for an RX. She did not like the RX so she is going back once the COVID19 is over. And...I am not going back to what we had (in terms of routine).


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Hoosier said:


> Yeah, my x use to do the same thing. Heck she would jump into the shower in the mornings with me. Then I figured out that she jumped in because she could give me a hand job then use it is an excuse in the evening. "I just took care of you this morning!" Simpler for her, leave me crying for intimacy, she didnt care.


Ok. Our situation is not as dire. And it’s not just an HJ. Thanks @Hoosier.


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think the op doesn't know it yet but he's going to wake up in 5 years and realize that none of this work was really worth the end result or the effort it'll take to get there.


4 years not five... but called it!


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

MartinBeck said:


> 4 years not five... but called it!


Yes you were close. Sorry there is no award for predicting me ending my marriage. I invested 20 years of being too NICE etc and worked on things for the last 4 years with some limited success. I realize the progress has been slow (and to some unacceptable) but - its my marriage and I am not throwing it away. I have decided that there will be NO MORE SEX until she meets me half way in terms of effort, creativity, participation etc..


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

Good move! Thats showing her! ...........ugh

By the way you might want to try and keep to one or two threads, multiple threads all about the same subject gets confusing. Might be why no one reply to your latest "what can I do to get my wife to have sex with me" post.

Here is the bottom line. You want to keep your marriage, you love your wife. I can totally respect that.

I had a wife that cheated on me. I wanted nothing more than to be with her. Thankfully she didnt want to be with me. After the fog cleared (I would literally say over and over out lout. "She doesnt love you" "She doesnt love you" as I drove down he road, it was so hard for me to accept) I took action, I was divorced in less than 100 days (still thinking we would maybe reconcile) and hitting the pool, trying hard to start a new life. Thats me. 

You have decided that you are willing to accept less than what you think is fair. Dude! live with it! Dont keep asking over and over "what can I do to improve, be a better lover" because you are not the problem, (well at least initially trend is not in your favor) she is. She is not changing. She is not changing. She is not changing.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Hoosier said:


> Good move! Thats showing her! ...........ugh
> 
> By the way you might want to try and keep to one or two threads, multiple threads all about the same subject gets confusing. Might be why no one reply to your latest "what can I do to get my wife to have sex with me" post.
> 
> ...


@Hoosier this is my only thread. You have me mistaken with @Married_in_michigan but we are both in similar boats.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I have decided that there will be NO MORE SEX until she meets me half way in terms of effort, creativity, participation etc..


I'm not quite sure that this strategy will lead to success. If she's apathetic about sex, I suspect she won't even notice or care about the lack of sex. In fact, I suspect she will be happy to not have the pressure anymore. 

If you want your marriage to work, you have to come to terms with the reality of her sex drive. Realize that she will _never_ be as sexual as you want her to be. It just doesn't seem like something she's interested in. Maybe if she had lots of sexual urges you could work with that, but it sounds like she doesn't have sexual urges anyway. I'm guessing she never masturbates, which should indicate how low her natural desire is. It would be like taking someone who thinks opera is boring and trying to get them to love it. Or even if it's something that she once enjoyed but no longer does--like playing with Barbies--and expecting her to once again enjoy it with the same passion. You might be setting yourself up to only be happy with a goal which is virtually impossible to achieve.

You need to figure out reasonable and realistic solutions to this situation. Either acknowledge the reality of her drive and figure out ways to make it work (e.g. enjoyable duty sex), or move on and find someone who you are better matched with. For how long you've been working at this and your ages, it's not really likely that you're going to see a huge turnaround.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

wilson said:


> I'm not quite sure that this strategy will lead to success. If she's apathetic about sex, I suspect she won't even notice or care about the lack of sex. In fact, I suspect she will be happy to not have the pressure anymore.
> 
> If you want your marriage to work, you have to come to terms with the reality of her sex drive. Realize that she will _never_ be as sexual as you want her to be. It just doesn't seem like something she's interested in. Maybe if she had lots of sexual urges you could work with that, but it sounds like she doesn't have sexual urges anyway. I'm guessing she never masturbates, which should indicate how low her natural desire is. It would be like taking someone who thinks opera is boring and trying to get them to love it. Or even if it's something that she once enjoyed but no longer does--like playing with Barbies--and expecting her to once again enjoy it with the same passion. You might be setting yourself up to only be happy with a goal which is virtually impossible to achieve.
> 
> You need to figure out reasonable and realistic solutions to this situation. Either acknowledge the reality of her drive and figure out ways to make it work (e.g. enjoyable duty sex), or move on and find someone who you are better matched with. For how long you've been working at this and your ages, it's not really likely that you're going to see a huge turnaround.


Wilson, that is kind of the point. OP just does not understand. 

He has repeatedly been told that this is not going to change and he refuses to accept the truth.

You can only do so much for people over the internet. I suspect that if OP had Dr. Phil tell him to get a divorce and find someone else, the would argue that if he just does more dishes, cooked better, was a better husband, it will get better...


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

Married in Atlanta, married in Michigan.......dang.... Sorry, you are correct. I am wrong.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Yes you were close. Sorry there is no award for predicting me ending my marriage. I invested 20 years of being too NICE etc and worked on things for the last 4 years with some limited success. I realize the progress has been slow (and to some unacceptable) but - its my marriage and I am not throwing it away. I have decided that there will be NO MORE SEX until she meets me half way in terms of effort, creativity, participation etc..


OP,

With your stated decision, you W just won totally and fully what she's been trying to intentionally accomplish for a long time.

The big win description, this was/is her goal, restated: No sex with you but keep you mentally and emotionally hooked so you continue to support her way of life. 

You deserve to have a M where you have a sexually willing partner, and one that you don't continuously have to stress yourself out on how to start sex, much less the sex itself.

There's one out there for you. It's not abnormal or that hard for most married partners to have regular sex.

Its
Just
Not!!

I bet your W puts you last in many of her thoughts as she plans her day and if you think about it I bet you can see that in some of you two's other interactions.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

IME, “letting” frequency deteriorate, and especially consciously choosing to avoid sex, is a one way ticket to NewNormal, where sex and affection are not even expected, and where the distance felt by Her and I continues to only grow.

It’s not necessarily a bad thing. Might be helpful to you if you’re having a hard time seeing/accepting the degree of her disinterest and it’s persistence over time.

For me, abstinence is a coping and detachment strategy, as I wait out our children‘s final year or two in our home. Has been effective, detachment-wise, for myself (and, hadn’t thought about it, but for her in response too). Coping — depends on the day.

The more consistently I treat her as a roommate, the more clearly I see that is all she ever offered me freely, and all she ever wanted, for years.

There was a time a few years ago she got angry because I asserted that she had “friend zoned” me. (She denied it. Was uncomfortable seeing herself as someone that could do that to her husband.). Now, I’d have to guess she would quietly agree that’s where we are.

Point is, understand that IME letting the distance grow and frequency decline leads to having less and less to try to hold on to.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

Piece of Sky, Wow. You very clearly laid out what OP has to look forward to but it might be what he needs. 
OP, I may have been to hasty citicizeing your choice, maybe you will observe and realize "The more consistently I treat her as a roommate, the more clearly I see that is all she ever offered me freely, and all she ever wanted, for years." your approach might work, clarity, one way or the other might happen, which would be great. Good Luck with that.

Piece of Sky. Staying for the kids is a tough call, and I think it is a majority of the time not the right call. Your case is your case. I'll support your choice. Sorry that you are stuck, but at least when you do leave, you should have all the "did I do the right thing" hammered out. Have fun! If she wants a roommate, ok, but do all the stuff you want to, especially with your kids, and make sure a number of times it is inconvienet for her and she is then no included. OP follow his lead!


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

The reason I often suggest "no sex at all" to men in this position is precisely because it has a chance of changing their perspective. I don't suggest it in the hope that it will lead to more sex. It won't. But it might lead the sex starved husband to realize the actual relationship he is in, instead of the unrealistic one in his head while he is chasing for sex. Plus, in my experience, no sex at all is MUCH easier to endure than erratic infrequent sex. I want the guy to spend less time strategizing how to get some sex and more time focusing on what else he wants to do with his life. Once sex is totally off the table, every decision is not weighted down with worrying "how will this impact my chances to get some sex this week / month / year?"

For guys like me, who don't leave despite being knowingly neglected, taking sex off the table completely is one of the few ways to ease him into the idea of leaving. It clears his mind of the obsession with sex, and gives him space to think about what he really wants from life.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Even though @Holdingontoit has a somewhat unique situation, he has a point, and I did it the exact opposite way to see my side of a hang up I had. I did a 7-Day Sex Challenge once, back in my 30's when we had 2 younger kids (early elementary and PS). The goal was to have sex every day, no excuses no matter what, for 7 days. I was stunned to realize that, even though I considered myself sexy and willing, almost every day that week I had thoughts like "Oh my God I wish I didn't have to do this" or "I am too tired to enjoy this" or "UGH another thing ToDo" It was shocking to have it so obvious in my face how I viewed sex so poorly and like it was just another chore! And seriously--compared to some of my girlfriends, I had a good attitude! LOL 

This is a similar but almost exactly opposite concept. Right now, so much of OP's relationship time is made up of "When will I get sex?" and "What do I have to do to get sex?" and "Will I get sex this time?" and "Will she say yes if I do XYZ just right?" that maybe he can't see himself and where he's at. In other words, clearly he is determined to stay no matter what. He has stated he will have NO MORE SEX unless she meets him halfway with enthusiasm (or something to that effect)...so that means he's not having any more sex. 

Well... what if that is just what he chooses to do? What if he weighs in the balance and says that to him, keeping the family together and being with this woman, even without any sex, is what he wants? Okay. If that is the choice, then just stop even trying for any sex AT ALL. Let it go. Be free of it. Enjoy all the coffee together, reading the paper, doing errands, puttering around the house, having friends over, and whatever... and just let go of the attempt to EVER HAVE SEX AGAIN. Maybe that will bring clarity, by laying down the obsession to try and get some. If you're not trying to get any, maybe you'll find you like every single other thing and you're willing to just be sexless. On the other hand, maybe you'll discover that every single other thing is also controlled by her and that's not acceptable to you, and you're not as willing as you thought to force the broken marriage to stay together.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@Affaircare: yes, the LD partner deciding to have sex every day for 7/30/365 days is the same idea from the other direction of the HD saying no sex for 7/30/365 days/ forever (with this partner). It is to go in the opposite direction of your internal default. Shake things up and see if you view yourself and the relationship differently. If trying for more sex hasn't worked after repeated attempts, try insisting on less sex. If the issue is control rather than actual sexual desire (or lack of it), the partner who is used to being in control is going to have to react to a new paradigm. That reaction is often revealing.

We used to have a mod (maybe still here lurking?) who often described when his wife got tired of being pestered for sex so she pushed him to have sex several times a day and all night to show him what it is like to be pestered for sex when you don't want it. If pulling isn't working, stop trying to pull harder and learn to push. Or drop the rope.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> The reason I often suggest "no sex at all" to men in this position is precisely because it has a chance of changing their perspective. I don't suggest it in the hope that it will lead to more sex. It won't. But it might lead the sex starved husband to realize the actual relationship he is in, instead of the unrealistic one in his head while he is chasing for sex. Plus, in my experience, no sex at all is MUCH easier to endure than erratic infrequent sex. I want the guy to spend less time strategizing how to get some sex and more time focusing on what else he wants to do with his life. Once sex is totally off the table, every decision is not weighted down with worrying "how will this impact my chances to get some sex this week / month / year?"
> 
> For guys like me, who don't leave despite being knowingly neglected, taking sex off the table completely is one of the few ways to ease him into the idea of leaving. It clears his mind of the obsession with sex, and gives him space to think about what he really wants from life.
> [/QUOT


This is kinda working for me right now -- not obsessing about it 24/7. Wondering etc..it is helping clear my head in a lot of ways.

My DW SIL is in town for the weekend. She is now divorced for 2 years. I asked her about it last night casually. Because she does not believe in premarital sex has no plans of dating again and sites her deep relationship with God as satisfying her needs. I only mention it because of the shared DNA. She repeatedly said "marriage is hard" and people change. Her EXH was kinda a loser and brought zero to the marriage. And I think she is kinda a man hater now - at least a little bit.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> ... I only mention it because of the shared DNA. She repeatedly said "marriage is hard" and people change. Her EXH was kinda a loser and brought zero to the marriage. And I think she is kinda a man hater now - at least a little bit.


Hmmm.

Birds of a feather flock together.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

MIA, you were going to explain it to her, but it doesn't look like you ever did. Good God! This has been going on for 4 years and your still talking about it. If you don't Do something, there'll be another 4 years of this. What you seem to be doing is some kind of internal self talk while deflecting the real problem. And your responses here seem a lot like the " ..yeah, but.." kind of thing.
My advice: File on her to get her attention because you don't have it yet. Another piece of advice: Get off your dead ass!


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I realize the progress has been slow (and to some unacceptable) but - its my marriage and I am not throwing it away. I have decided that there will be NO MORE SEX until she meets me half way in terms of effort, creativity, participation etc..





wilson said:


> I'm not quite sure that this strategy will lead to success. If she's apathetic about sex, I suspect she won't even notice or care about the lack of sex. In fact, I suspect she will be happy to not have the pressure anymore.


There is a reason why the "NO MORE SEX" from the the HD person might be effective. Because, for years, the LD offender (LD does _not_ = "offender" but in this case it appears to) depended on using the HD partner's HD against him or her. The consistency of the HD partner allowed the LD person to believe they could continue as-is forever. Their world was solid. Not really much to worry about.

But when the HD partner takes sex off the table, the LD person may wake up and smell the coffee. What's changed, or what might be about to change? HD person is suspected to not be able to change their ways, right? So something serious might be afoot.

Hey, just sayin', it's been at least somewhat effective for me. My wife got really shaken up, really badly, when sex became something I wanted only on my own terms, denying her gatekeeper status. I think so much of this is about control, and control is addictive. @Marriednatlanta 's wife has held a ton of power over the years. As has my wife. If you stop playing the LD person's game, things can change. 

Again, this is not an indictment against all LD folk. Lots of reasons for LD that have nothing to do with control or insensitivity or selfishness.


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## Deguello (Apr 3, 2015)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Nothing really. A few comments that it will get better once the kids get older (that is at least 13 years away), that is normal for couples with kids to experience this, etc....and a just a general unwillingness to do or try anything other than what we are doing. At this point, even a with a trip to Costa Rica coming up, I am so fed up with her level of participation in this process.
> 
> I stopped asking for sex, expecting sex, even hinting around sex with her about a month a go. We had a shower quickie a week or two ago. I am at a point where I would rather go without then have the same thing over and over and over again.
> 
> I will not participate unless it changes (the routine) that is. Am I being too harsh? I'm here because I am really open to almost anything.


I really understand. To be honest I had a p0rn issue,she saw it as cheating.
She all but cut me off for a while. I'm recovering. However,in 2009-2010 our sex life went south ,we dropped from 42- 55 times a year to last year less than 12,this year 3 times maybe.the reason was "I have cold sores" sex hurts yadda yadda yada.She has no fantasies. It is last on the "to do list"

Only because it is her obligation as my wife.we have been married 46+years for a while I gave up.and she said "What's wrong" I may have unloaded on her,Our sex life is just this side of non existent.this has got to change,either you don't care about us any more or,the other choice I think you know what that is. At one point I thought she was steppin' out. all of the red flags were there. she was not. I'm sure.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

I've revised my thinking on this. I think it's a long-term EA, maybe PA with MIA supplying all the necessities.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Ok so. I have a question. You want your sex life to be satisfying and have her participate and you aren't just happy with an orgasm. What is you didn't get an orgasm at all? Would you be happy then? What is your wife just humped your leg and you never got a hard on or an orgasm but you didn't have to do any work. She just humped your leg rubbing herself up and down on your knee until she came? Would that be ok? Probably not.

LIsten a long time ago in this thread you admitted your wife has 10% orgasm or less with lately being less. Then you want more sex. Why? Why would she want more sex? Sex is supposed to be something enjoyable, sex should be orgasmic more often than not. You are getting yours but she isn't. Of course she is unmotivated. For her sex is a chore. Something she has to do for you to be happy but not something for her at all. You are treating her like a blow up doll. So she is acting like a blow up doll.

Some people have asked for specifics and you've glossed over those. First you say she is unhappy with things outside the bedroom. What things? What is her needs for feeling connected? 

Second make the next several times you have sex about her orgasm. No matter what that takes. Even if you don't get one. Oral on her may or may not be the answer. She comes first is pretty much just about oral on the woman. Not every woman likes that. Most women do not orgasm from PIV alone. 

Your wife is probably sexually repressed and doesn't even know what she would like. Women can also get very self conscious when the focus is on them. I might suggest using her starfish as a tool. Buy a blindfold, and some other toys like a vibrator, dildo. Have her lay on the bed and put the blindfold on. Specifically request she just lie back and not look. Tell her you need to know when something feels good let her know that if she doesn't feel comfortable talking maybe she could make some sound when you are getting warmer. Then work her over. You aren't allowed to use your penis until she has an orgasm. Tips. If you are going to do oral on her then put the dildo in it gives the vaginal walls something to grip. If you use the vibrator don't just stick it on the clitoris and leave it that can be way too intense. 

Thing is she might be low drive, she might not be attracted to you or she could just have never really had good sex. Bad sex or mediocre sex for a women just doesn't do much for us. You admit that your sex life if just her laying there while you get on, get off and then done. Ask your self what's in it for her. You are basically asking her to just take one for the team once a week. Then you want to complain that she isn't doing enough for you. What the hell are you doing for her? Many women need more warm up and energy on their orgasm to achieve it then men. Fair? maybe not. But you find a good regular orgasm for her and you might just find she is more willing and adventurous because she then would have skin in the game. Also I don't think anyone on this thread has mentioned responsive desire. That is when a women doesn't go around horny, doesn't think about sex, but warms up after foreplay and such has started. It often takes 10 to 20 minutes for the motor to start running but then they enjoy sex. It doesn't sound like the kind of sex you are having is quality sex for you or HER.


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## Baldy (Jul 18, 2019)

Marriednatlanta said:


> This is kinda working for me right now -- not obsessing about it 24/7. Wondering etc..it is helping clear my head in a lot of ways.
> 
> My DW SIL is in town for the weekend. She is now divorced for 2 years. I asked her about it last night casually. Because she does not believe in premarital sex has no plans of dating again and sites her deep relationship with God as satisfying her needs. I only mention it because of the shared DNA. She repeatedly said "marriage is hard" and people change. Her EXH was kinda a loser and brought zero to the marriage. And I think she is kinda a man hater now - at least a little bit.


I have nothing to offer as far as a solution. Having lived through sexless marriage I remember when desperate telling my wife that every time we don’t when we could, is gone forever. Guess what? I got a medical issue that has ended ( maybe not forever) my ability to get an erection. I’m not sure what that has done for her, but I harbor a great deal of resentment. We have sex a little more often, as best we can, but I’m sure it’s from guilt. 
DO SOMETHING TO SOLVE THE ISSUE!


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

[email protected] said:


> I've revised my thinking on this. I think it's a long-term EA, maybe PA with MIA supplying all the necessities.





[email protected] said:


> I've revised my thinking on this. I think it's a long-term EA, maybe PA with MIA supplying all the necessities.


It’s not. I have checked.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Deguello said:


> I really understand. To be honest I had a p0rn issue,she saw it as cheating.
> She all but cut me off for a while. I'm recovering. However,in 2009-2010 our sex life went south ,we dropped from 42- 55 times a year to last year less than 12,this year 3 times maybe.the reason was "I have cold sores" sex hurts yadda yadda yada.She has no fantasies. It is last on the "to do list"
> 
> Only because it is her obligation as my wife.we have been married 46+years for a while I gave up.and she said "What's wrong" I may have unloaded on her,Our sex life is just this side of non existent.this has got to change,either you don't care about us any more or,the other choice I think you know what that is. At one point I thought she was steppin' out. all of the red flags were there. she was not. I'm sure.


Where are things at as of today?


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Baldy said:


> I have nothing to offer as far as a solution. Having lived through sexless marriage I remember when desperate telling my wife that every time we don’t when we could, is gone forever. Guess what? I got a medical issue that has ended ( maybe not forever) my ability to get an erection. I’m not sure what that has done for her, but I harbor a great deal of resentment. We have sex a little more often, as best we can, but I’m sure it’s from guilt.
> DO SOMETHING TO SOLVE THE ISSUE!


I am. No sex is working. She is starting to realize things are bad. When she finally asks “What’s up?” We will have the conversation we’ve needed to have a loooong time ago.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> Ok so. I have a question. You want your sex life to be satisfying and have her participate and you aren't just happy with an orgasm. What is you didn't get an orgasm at all? Would you be happy then? What is your wife just humped your leg and you never got a hard on or an orgasm but you didn't have to do any work. She just humped your leg rubbing herself up and down on your knee until she came? Would that be ok? Probably not.
> 
> LIsten a long time ago in this thread you admitted your wife has 10% orgasm or less with lately being less. Then you want more sex. Why? Why would she want more sex? Sex is supposed to be something enjoyable, sex should be orgasmic more often than not. You are getting yours but she isn't. Of course she is unmotivated. For her sex is a chore. Something she has to do for you to be happy but not something for her at all. You are treating her like a blow up doll. So she is acting like a blow up doll.
> 
> ...


I’v done variations of practically everything you suggested. And for 2O years or so she has controlled our sex life. It has mostly if not exclusively been about trying to get her off. My needs have always been last in the list. And she has never asked “What do you like?? Want?” We are going without for now.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Casual Observer said:


> There is a reason why the "NO MORE SEX" from the the HD person might be effective. Because, for years, the LD offender (LD does _not_ = "offender" but in this case it appears to) depended on using the HD partner's HD against him or her. The consistency of the HD partner allowed the LD person to believe they could continue as-is forever. Their world was solid. Not really much to worry about.
> 
> But when the HD partner takes sex off the table, the LD person may wake up and smell the coffee. What's changed, or what might be about to change? HD person is suspected to not be able to change their ways, right? So something serious might be afoot.
> 
> ...


It’s working. Slowly. I will have to turn down sex soon because she will eventually ask about it. Then I will say “let’s talk”.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I’v done variations of practically everything you suggested. And for 2O years or so she has controlled our sex life. It has mostly if not exclusively been about trying to get her off. My needs have always been last in the list. And she has never asked “What do you like?? Want?” We are going without for now.


Look if for 20 years you have been working to get her to orgasm then it wouldn't happen less than 10% of the time. I get that she has controlled frequency I'm not sure how she could control everything since you are a participant. Your needs are last? Do you not get to orgasm during sex? 

Anyway I guess the rest are correct. Just divorce this is going nowhere.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> Look if for 20 years you have been working to get her to orgasm then it wouldn't happen less than 10% of the time.


That ignores several very real problems some people have. 






Anorgasmia - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> Look if for 20 years you have been working to get her to orgasm then it wouldn't happen less than 10% of the time. I get that she has controlled frequency I'm not sure how she could control everything since you are a participant. Your needs are last? Do you not get to orgasm during sex?
> 
> Anyway I guess the rest are correct. Just divorce this is going nowhere.


Yes, my needs are last. As in....we spend the entire time doing what she wants, when wants, how she wants, etc....and then we have PIV. And she wants to lay there motionless usually. So while my needs are met at the end (the very end) - I am tired of having never been asked “What do you like? Want” etc..”


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

PieceOfSky said:


> That ignores several very real problems some people have.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Last year she tried a patch for a week to help address her low libido. After a week she took the patch off because she said the instructions were to complicated as to when and how to apply it, when to wear it etc...I was disappointed because it felt like (at the time) she did not care enough to fight through it and figure it out.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Yes, my needs are last. As in....we spend the entire time doing what she wants, when wants, how she wants, etc....and then we have PIV. And she wants to lay there motionless usually. So while my needs are met at the end (the very end) - I am tired of having never been asked “What do you like? Want” etc..”


Notice I didn't say ask her how she wants to have sex. I doubt she knows how to have an orgasm. But I've already agreed with you. It's time to divorce. You don't feel loved or appreciated due to sexual needs, it's common. And I have no doubt you can find someone to have enthusiastic sex with after the divorce.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> Notice I didn't say ask her how she wants to have sex. I doubt she knows how to have an orgasm. But I've already agreed with you. It's time to divorce. You don't feel loved or appreciated due to sexual needs, it's common. And I have no doubt you can find someone to have enthusiastic sex with after the divorce.


I am preparing myself for either scenario once we talk. I have the basic word track in my head and now that I have gotten over the actual not having sex in a looonggg time - my head is clear. I am prepared to tell her the things I have previously held back on because I thought I saw some progress.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I am preparing myself for either scenario once we talk. I have the basic word track in my head and now that I have gotten over the actual not having sex in a looonggg time - my head is clear. I am prepared to tell her the things I have previously held back on because I thought I saw some progress.


I would suggest you do _not_ approach it from the perspective of trying to convince her that more intimacy is needed. You've wasted enough breath on that. If she doesn't understand it after 20+ years, don't waste any more years trying to explain your needs. Rather, tell her that you realize that she doesn't like intimacy and you're tired of feeling like you're forcing her to do something which should be a loving part of a good marriage. Tell her you've decided to figure out other ways to fill that void in your life, such as new hobbies, hanging out with friends, etc. Tell her that you're pulling away because being close to her brings up those feelings of intimacy, so by pulling away you won't feel that frustration. But also tell her that likely means you will fall out of love with her since intimacy and love are tightly tied together in your emotions. Without one, the other will fade. Likely this means you will end up divorcing after a while. It's not that you're saying "have sex or we'll divorce", but rather "without intimacy I won't feel love, and without love there won't be a marriage." If she doesn't realize that a marriage without intimacy is a bad marriage, that's her problem to work on. 

Hopefully she takes the message to heart and takes on the work to changing her outlook, but if she doesn't, realize it's over. She should take major steps to fix the situation. But if instead it's all about how you have to change every aspect of yourself and remove every stressful thing in her life, don't bother.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

wilson said:


> I would suggest you do _not_ approach it from the perspective of trying to convince her that more intimacy is needed. You've wasted enough breath on that. If she doesn't understand it after 20+ years, don't waste any more years trying to explain your needs. Rather, tell her that you realize that she doesn't like intimacy and you're tired of feeling like you're forcing her to do something which should be a loving part of a good marriage. Tell her you've decided to figure out other ways to fill that void in your life, such as new hobbies, hanging out with friends, etc. Tell her that you're pulling away because being close to her brings up those feelings of intimacy, so by pulling away you won't feel that frustration. But also tell her that likely means you will fall out of love with her since intimacy and love are tightly tied together in your emotions. Without one, the other will fade. Likely this means you will end up divorcing after a while. It's not that you're saying "have sex or we'll divorce", but rather "without intimacy I won't feel love, and without love there won't be a marriage." If she doesn't realize that a marriage without intimacy is a bad marriage, that's her problem to work on.
> 
> Hopefully she takes the message to heart and takes on the work to changing her outlook, but if she doesn't, realize it's over. She should take major steps to fix the situation. But if instead it's all about how you have to change every aspect of yourself and remove every stressful thing in her life, don't bother.


That's good advice. I can work that narrative into the conversation. Thanks.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Last year she tried a patch for a week to help address her low libido. After a week she took the patch off because she said the instructions were to complicated as to when and how to apply it, when to wear it etc...I was disappointed because it felt like (at the time) she did not care enough to fight through it and figure it out.


Keep mind how little effort she puts into fixing the situation given the magnitude that it affects you. If figuring out a patch is too much work, that says a lot about how much she cares about your feelings and fixing this issue. I doubt that the patch was "too much work". It sounds like a kid saying "my stomach hurts" when they don't want to go to school. I'm sure if the patch did something she wanted (like eliminating wrinkles), she would have figured it out.

When she pushes back in your conversation, just be totally nonchalant about it. Rather than engaging and providing counter arguments, say something like, "Ok, that's fine. Like I said, I have some new hobbies to keep to keep me interested. " 

To be honest, because of her disinterest, I think you should just go ahead with a divorce. I am doubtful if there will be any real change in her that will bring you true satisfaction. But I can see giving her an opportunity to change for the sake of the kids. Especially with the CV19 situation, it's going to be tough to make major changes to your living situation right now. It's important for you to have the mindset that you are in control of your happiness and figure out how to achieve that rather than feeling like you need her to change for you to be happy.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

wilson said:


> Keep mind how little effort she puts into fixing the situation given the magnitude that it affects you. If figuring out a patch is too much work, that says a lot about how much she cares about your feelings and fixing this issue. I doubt that the patch was "too much work". It sounds like a kid saying "my stomach hurts" when they don't want to go to school. I'm sure if the patch did something she wanted (like eliminating wrinkles), she would have figured it out.
> 
> When she pushes back in your conversation, just be totally nonchalant about it. Rather than engaging and providing counter arguments, say something like, "Ok, that's fine. Like I said, I have some new hobbies to keep to keep me interested. "
> 
> To be honest, because of her disinterest, I think you should just go ahead with a divorce. I am doubtful if there will be any real change in her that will bring you true satisfaction. But I can see giving her an opportunity to change for the sake of the kids. Especially with the CV19 situation, it's going to be tough to make major changes to your living situation right now. It's important for you to have the mindset that you are in control of your happiness and figure out how to achieve that rather than feeling like you need her to change for you to be happy.


Yeah. The conversation is coming - could be tonight. She is dropping off my MIL/SIL at the airport. We have a few schedule issues to resolve next week. She will try to bring it up “Everything ok? You seemed kinda disconnected? Etc..” I can see it already on her face. I am ready. The only downside is we don’t have the time tonight we really need to have the deeper conversation. And CV19 is not helping the cause AT ALL.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

One thing -- she may try to turn this into a YOU JUST WANT SEX. Make sure you keep it at the I want INTIMACY level...


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

jlg07 said:


> One thing -- she may try to turn this into a YOU JUST WANT SEX. Make sure you keep it at the I want INTIMACY level...


Also noted. Yes. We have been down that path before too — prior to our trip to Costa. And YES - I had to recalibrate my approach some so as she didn’t feel like an object per say - more spooning, handholding, being more gentle. And that did work SOME — but we never really got beyond your basic missionary, starfish, duty performance etc....and when we do (like maybe she lays on top of me - which I like - I like that body weight feeling) she usually practically frozen in place. I can tell she is terribly uncomfortable and just wants to move on to PIV.


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I am. No sex is working. She is starting to realize things are bad. When she finally asks “What’s up?” We will have the conversation we’ve needed to have a loooong time ago.





Marriednatlanta said:


> It’s working. Slowly. I will have to turn down sex soon because she will eventually ask about it. Then I will say “let’s talk”.





Marriednatlanta said:


> Yeah. The conversation is coming - could be tonight. She is dropping off my MIL/SIL at the airport. We have a few schedule issues to resolve next week. She will try to bring it up “Everything ok? You seemed kinda disconnected? Etc..” I can see it already on her face. I am ready. The only downside is we don’t have the time tonight we really need to have the deeper conversation. And CV19 is not helping the cause AT ALL.


Respectfully, no, no, no, what you are doing is not working at all. You are passive-aggressively not initiating sex and using that as a driver for her to initiate a conversation (or series of conversations) you should have led years ago. This passive aggressive behavior is simply continuing the same hamster wheel exercise you've been futilely engaged in for the last four years, and you shouldn't expect a different result. You've been less than honest with yourself, telling yourself that there have been incremental improvements, when all that has happened is that the frequency has slightly increased overall. 

You still don't have a willing and engaged sexual partner and, worse (and not coincidentally), you don't have the emotional intimacy and mutual trust you need between you and N to have frank but supportive conversations about this issue. Intentionally or subconsciously, you and she have continued to hide behind your busy lives as an excuse for not developing emotional intimacy, which is step 1 for both a good sex life and the conversation you want to have. 

Four years in, you still don't know why N doesn't enjoy sex with you. You don't know why she doesn't orgasm most of the time with you. You don't know what she fantasizes about in a sexual partner or experience. You don't know what's holding her back. You don't know whether her past has any bearing on her present attitude toward sex. And you can't just whip out those questions in a talk out of the blue and expect to get a real answer or have a real and productive conversation if she doesn't feel safe and emotionally connected to talk about them with you. This is what MEM2020 tried to get you to confront years ago, but your posts seemed to ignore his questions, so here again you find yourself because you have not dealt with the root of the situation and are still focused on just one symptom. Frustrated or not, ambushing N with a "let's talk" is not going to have the outcome you want.

Were I in your shoes, that's where I would start. Getting in better shape, setting healthy boundaries and taking care of yourself is great. You should be doing that anyway. You want a wife invested in your sex life? Start by getting her invested in you emotionally and, even more importantly, investing in her emotionally. That missing piece may be what's holding her back. At a minimum, that gap is preventing you from finding out what's really at issue. 

I appreciate this post may sound harsh, but I speak from personal experience. After having kids, my sex life with my wife went to heck. We were the picture of awesome roommates, co-parents and business partners, but lovers we were not. After a year of haranguing her, I eventually got our frequency back to where I wanted it, but her heart was almost never in it. Trying to talk to my wife about sex would usually cause her to shut down. Not coincidentally, our emotional connection was nil. We both had emotional walls up, and we used the business of life as a distraction to avoid emotional intimacy.

Separately, I began to see a counselor for FOO issues, and in doing so I began to see all the walls I had put up, even with my wife. Long story short, as I began to take those walls down and make myself vulnerable and begin to initiate emotional intimacy, I was shocked at how she began to open up as well. It didn't happen overnight, but she also began to feel more comfortable talking about sex. Some of those conversations were hard, and we're still a work in progress, but that has translated into us both really trying to be better sexual partners for each other. 

Good luck to you, MIA. Rooting for you!


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Satisfied Mind said:


> Respectfully, no, no, no, what you are doing is not working at all. You are passive-aggressively not initiating sex and using that as a driver for her to initiate a conversation (or series of conversations) you should have led years ago. This passive aggressive behavior is simply continuing the same hamster wheel exercise you've been futilely engaged in for the last four years, and you shouldn't expect a different result. You've been less than honest with yourself, telling yourself that there have been incremental improvements, when all that has happened is that the frequency has slightly increased overall.
> 
> You still don't have a willing and engaged sexual partner and, worse (and not coincidentally), you don't have the emotional intimacy and mutual trust you need between you and N to have frank but supportive conversations about this issue. Intentionally or subconsciously, you and she have continued to hide behind your busy lives as an excuse for not developing emotional intimacy, which is step 1 for both a good sex life and the conversation you want to have.
> 
> ...


Thanks for rooting for me. Everything you said is true - I don’t deny it. I have tried and tried (and tried) to rebuild that trust with my DW. I know we have a weak emotional connection. I worked on myself for 5 years. We are having our “reset“ conversation Monday night. We have had a few of these that I can recall YE18, mid 19, Now. This conversation will be different - with me being more upfront, candid, truly transparent, more confrontational. There are several levels to this conversation — not just about our ****ty sex life.


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Thanks for rooting for me. Everything you said is true - I don’t deny it. I have tried and tried (and tried) to rebuild that trust with my DW. I know we have a weak emotional connection. I worked on myself for 5 years. We are having our “reset“ conversation Monday night. We have had a few of these that I can recall YE18, mid 19, Now. This conversation will be different - with me being more upfront, candid, truly transparent, more confrontational. There are several levels to this conversation — not just about our ****ty sex life.


That's great that you'll be having a conversation with her. I'd like to make a few recommendations:

1. Keep your expectations realistic - the issues you and your wife have won't be solved with one, two or even a handful of talks. Look at this first conversation as a starting point.

2. Sex isn't even your biggest issue - the missing intimacy and connection between you is where I would focus the conversation, and I wouldn't even make this first conversation about sex. You may be surprised to find that improving your emotional intimacy with your wife also improves your physical intimacy, but even if it doesn't, you'll at least have a foundation for talking about sex with wife in a more honest, vulnerable and productive way.

3. Be direct and honest in sharing your feelings with her - don't beat around the bush, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to be confrontational. You need to clearly express YOUR needs, but the more you're able to do it from the standpoint of WE and US (as in how you want the best for you as a couple), the better. And I don't think it's a bad thing to make yourself vulnerable in sharing your feelings. If you want her to open up to you, you may have to lead by example.

4. If you feel like you have contributed to the lack of emotional intimacy between you, own up unequivocally to your side of it and apologize for it. Talk about what you intend to do on your side to effect changes.

5. Ask questions of your wife to find out how she feels about your marriage and your intimacy. Don't let her skate with pat answers about the kids, the house, your day-to-day life, etc. That's surface stuff. She may need time to think about it, but make sure you get answers either later in the conversation or in a later conversation. The best thing you can do is to get her talking, and when she does, really listen and watch her expressions and body language as well.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Satisfied Mind said:


> That's great that you'll be having a conversation with her. I'd like to make a few recommendations:
> 
> 1. Keep your expectations realistic - the issues you and your wife have won't be solved with one, two or even a handful of talks. Look at this first conversation as a starting point.
> 
> ...


I can figure out the cool way to cut and paste my response to this...so I will just reply to each bullet:

1. Very much the plan. I will use this to establish Monday PMs as our night to catch up, use a baby sitter, talk, checkin, etc...

2. I agree. It won’t be about sex but if it comes up I am not backing off. And I know I have room for improvement in this area with her — but I have never really ASKED the important questions regarding her past. 

3. Yes. I know my role in this and I will lay all my cards in the table, even the ones I’d rather not.

4. I know where I have fallen short and why she is feeling so isolated. Again, me being transparently honest despite the consequences. If that makes sense. 

5. This BY FAR is the area I have never really been able to get her to the next level. Lots of excuses but nothing really I can act on per say.


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I can figure out the cool way to cut and paste my response to this...so I will just reply to each bullet:
> 
> 1. Very much the plan. I will use this to establish Monday PMs as our night to catch up, use a baby sitter, talk, checkin, etc...


Sounds like a good plan. Don't be discouraged if you get some pushback from your wife in the beginning or don't see the progress you'd like initially. Keep in mind that this probably will feel very new and strange to her. You don't just overcome 20+ years of patterns in a few weeks. That's where you need to be strong and persistent. Let her know this is for real and hopefully once she starts to see some changes, she'll buy in. In my case, it took a couple of months before I started seeing progress.

And don't think of this as just a weekly thing. Practice mindfulness in your daily interactions with her. Really listen to her and observe her body language and facial expressions and ask her deeper questions when the situation calls for it. Check in with how she's feeling on more than just a surface level. Bring back some playfulness whenever you can. This all would have sounded so touchy-feely and over-the-top to me a few years ago, but the first step to a deeper connection with your wife is to really listen to her and be in tune with her and not allow all the day-to-day distractions of life get in the way.



Marriednatlanta said:


> 2. I agree. It won’t be about sex but if it comes up I am not backing off. And I know I have room for improvement in this area with her — but I have never really ASKED the important questions regarding her past.


Agreed that you should be honest and direct in your answers. Just keep in mind that you may not have a whole lot of credit built up with her yet in the emotional trust bank. That means you'll need to be very careful in whether and how you approach certain subjects for a little while.



Marriednatlanta said:


> 5. This BY FAR is the area I have never really been able to get her to the next level. Lots of excuses but nothing really I can act on per say.


My wife and I both were (are) extremely emotionally stunted thanks to trauma in our pasts and our default coping mechanisms. Counseling (MC and IC) was very helpful, and I think it also was a big deal for my wife to see me take the first steps in being emotional vulnerable, opening up, and making myself someone who could be emotionally trustworthy. I didn't demand that she do the same. I simply shared my journey with her and kept asking her questions along the way. Again, it won't just happen overnight, and if you're anything like me, you'll be terrible at it at first (this is where a good sense of humor is really helpful). In my case, we had low EQ and significant communication issues reinforced by decades of bad habits. But if your wife and marriage are as important to you as mine are to me, the work and pain will be worth it in the long run.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

The only thing I have to offer at this point is... how can you tell when you're actually getting somewhere, vs spinning your wheels? How does one measure progress?

So often this journey becomes a combination of a wild roller coaster ride and the movie Groundhog Day. Expectations aren't met... or are they? Judgment becomes cloudy. 

I think... and this is REALLY hard for people to do... I think we need to lay out, on paper, what the expectations are and what progress should look like, when we're having these conversations. And post that paper on the wall somewhere. Maybe the bathroom door. Some place where it's not possible to avoid it. And be accountable to what's written down

every

single

day.

My wife simply will not do this, and we simply have to get there. Not doing so is a way of removing accountability from the situation, and her own accountability is the missing ingredient for success. Therapists are not big on accountability because they want to avoid judgment.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Casual Observer said:


> The only thing I have to offer at this point is... how can you tell when you're actually getting somewhere, vs spinning your wheels? How does one measure progress?
> 
> So often this journey becomes a combination of a wild roller coaster ride and the movie Groundhog Day. Expectations aren't met... or are they? Judgment becomes cloudy.
> 
> ...


I like where you are going with this....


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I like where you are going with this....


You might really benefit from this TED Talk, something to watch with your wife. It "gets" my feeling so well. And it speaks to the LD partner in a way that you might not be able to. Could be the best 17 minutes the two of you have spent in some time.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Casual Observer said:


> You might really benefit from this TED Talk, something to watch with your wife. It "gets" my feeling so well. And it speaks to the LD partner in a way that you might not be able to. Could be the best 17 minutes the two of you have spent in some time.


Wow. I watched it. That is sooo 💯💯.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Wow. I watched it. That is sooo 💯💯.


The "just do it" approach can also backfire. The notion of it sounds great as if one partner enjoys sex once it happens, but perhaps struggles to let down their guard to allow it to happen. Over time if you have a sense of entitlement come time to "just do it" if can begin to play mind games on your partner. She may question her value in the relationship as a human being and start to feel something more like a sex worker that is required to provide you with sex in the marriage. 

I am to a point that I can bend that mind game on its head. The first step if this happens it to ironically validate your partner's fear that she actually is a sex worker in the marriage and compliment her on her ability to please you. Then sarcastically claim as if you are not interested in sex at that moment and make a note of all the other things in the marriage that makes it tolerable to stay together. Ask your wife if she stays with you because she expects great sex from you, and do so with a sense of unreasonable overconfidence. Ask your wife if you changed careers to become a professional sex worker how much she thinks you would make, and before she answers claim that you would likely be one of those people that would get depressed because you would have too much money, then elude to the fact that you are OK with giving up unlimited wealth to be with her because she makes you happy. Be sure and cite this reason for being happy... (make a pause) ...and say, "after all these years I really enjoy being a sex worker with you as my only client, because you don't overwork me and I get to be lazy!" Then ask her if she wants to know a secret... Tell her that your best performances in the bedroom that please her the most are almost too easy. All you have to do is lay there, let her get on top and do all the work! 

Then just lay there naked next to her in bed and sarcastically pretend to be totally uninterested. If she asks about your erection, just claim you are trying to be professional as a curtesy so that whenever she needs you that you are ready.

The whole point to this is that your wife will enjoy you being over confident. She may try to criticize you, but when you don't let her, she will have to have it. And you can enjoy role playing the world's laziest sex worker! 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

badsanta said:


> The "just do it" approach can also backfire. The notion of it sounds great as if one partner enjoys sex once it happens, but perhaps struggles to let down their guard to allow it to happen. Over time if you have a sense of entitlement come time to "just do it" if can begin to play mind games on your partner. She may question her value in the relationship as a human being and start to feel something more like a sex worker that is required to provide you with sex in the marriage.
> 
> I am to a point that I can bend that mind game on its head. The first step if this happens it to ironically validate your partner's fear that she actually is a sex worker in the marriage and compliment her on her ability to please you. Then sarcastically claim as if you are not interested in sex at that moment and make a note of all the other things in the marriage that makes it tolerable to stay together. Ask your wife if she stays with you because she expects great sex from you, and do so with a sense of unreasonable overconfidence. Ask your wife if you changed careers to become a professional sex worker how much she thinks you would make, and before she answers claim that you would likely be one of those people that would get depressed because you would have too much money, then elude to the fact that you are OK with giving up unlimited wealth to be with her because she makes you happy. Be sure and cite this reason for being happy... (make a pause) ...and say, "after all these years I really enjoy being a sex worker with you as my only client, because you don't overwork me and I get to be lazy!" Then ask her if she wants to know a secret... Tell her that your best performances in the bedroom that please her the most are almost too easy. All you have to do is lay there, let her get on top and do all the work!
> 
> ...


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

badsanta said:


> The "just do it" approach can also backfire. The notion of it sounds great as if one partner enjoys sex once it happens, but perhaps struggles to let down their guard to allow it to happen. Over time if you have a sense of entitlement come time to "just do it" if can begin to play mind games on your partner. She may question her value in the relationship as a human being and start to feel something more like a sex worker that is required to provide you with sex in the marriage.
> 
> I am to a point that I can bend that mind game on its head. The first step if this happens it to ironically validate your partner's fear that she actually is a sex worker in the marriage and compliment her on her ability to please you. Then sarcastically claim as if you are not interested in sex at that moment and make a note of all the other things in the marriage that makes it tolerable to stay together. Ask your wife if she stays with you because she expects great sex from you, and do so with a sense of unreasonable overconfidence. Ask your wife if you changed careers to become a professional sex worker how much she thinks you would make, and before she answers claim that you would likely be one of those people that would get depressed because you would have too much money, then elude to the fact that you are OK with giving up unlimited wealth to be with her because she makes you happy. Be sure and cite this reason for being happy... (make a pause) ...and say, "after all these years I really enjoy being a sex worker with you as my only client, because you don't overwork me and I get to be lazy!" Then ask her if she wants to know a secret... Tell her that your best performances in the bedroom that please her the most are almost too easy. All you have to do is lay there, let her get on top and do all the work!
> 
> ...


You might be over-thinking things, and, coming from me, that's saying something. 

I do agree that the "just do it" approach is a bit strong; I think what she was getting at was taking responsibility for responsive desire. But my wife actually asked that we watch it again because there was a bit of a light-bulb moment when this woman in a video validated what I'd been saying all along. She (my wife) had always thought my claims of feeling lonely and hopeless were just a ploy. Her expression went dark and sad when the woman in the video talked about how a guy feels when rejected. I think it also helped that it wasn't a young woman in the video.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Wow. I watched it. That is sooo 💯💯.


Watch it with your wife. She might get that "Oh my God, I had no idea" moment. For my wife, it was 3rd party validation (of what I've been feeling/talking about) that hit her hard enough she asked to watch it again in a couple of days. My wife wondered why the "3 things" waited until the very end; I explained how important it was the she first got the viewer to really put themselves in the place of the HD partner.

It was also eye-opening, to my wife, to hear someone talk about how much power the LD partner has in the marriage, compared to the HD. Her therapist has hinted about that for a while, but it never quite seemed to hit home. This video brought it home loud and clear.

Think this video might deserve its own thread?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I agree the “just do it” approach could backfire.

I’d go even further: asking one’s lower desire spouse to listen to the advice at the end of the video could backfire. For some, it’s too much information and would drown out the supremely important opportunity the earlier part of the video offers for creating empathy for the rejected spouse.

The risk has to do with where a particular couple is in the unraveling MWD describes in the talk — unraveling that begins with rejected bids for affection and ends up with sexual anorexia (or maybe sexual aversion).

MIA, I would cautiously consider where your wife might be on the spectrum — lack of awareness of responsive desire and innocent ignorance of what rejection means to you on the one side, and sexual anorexia and sexual aversion way way on the other side. IIRC your earlier posts, maybe she is on the safer side of that spectrum at the moment, and would truly be moved even with hearing the advice to just do it.

I once thought it would be a good idea for my wife to read this article about sexual aversion: How to Overcome Sexual Aversion : Marriage Builders, Inc.. It struck me as, if anything, putting the blame on the rejected partner for creating an aversion to sex in the low desire partner. I was dumbfounded by my wife’s angry claim that the article advised her to just do it, essentially.

If I were to show her this video, I would insist we stop before the “just do it” advice, and tell her if she thought there was a problem worth solving, she could listen to the rest on her own. I’d emphasize that I truly wanted her to hear the part that gave us a chance of having empathy for what’s happened and to understand the unraveling process that has unfolded, because without such empathy and insight we are doomed.

Ymmv. Timing, and framing, matters.
Good luck.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

We will watch it. Together.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> We will watch it. Together.


Curious how that went? Generally speaking in relationships where things are out of balance, so are the solutions. Meaning that one person puts in a lot of effort to try to better understand problems and solutions. As you try a variety of things perhaps there is improvement here and there, but eventually it becomes a cycle of wash, rinse, and repeat with only one person putting in the effort. 

So if it were solely up to your wife to solve imbalances in the marriage and suggest ideas to try and fix things, what would those suggestions be? Or would she suggest that there is not much of a problem that needs to be solved?

Badsanta


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Curious how that went? Generally speaking in relationships where things are out of balance, so are the solutions. Meaning that one person puts in a lot of effort to try to better understand problems and solutions. As you try a variety of things perhaps there is improvement here and there, but eventually it becomes a cycle of wash, rinse, and repeat with only one person putting in the effort.
> 
> So if it were solely up to your wife to solve imbalances in the marriage and suggest ideas to try and fix things, what would those suggestions be? Or would she suggest that there is not much of a problem that needs to be solved?
> 
> Badsanta


You know...you raise good points. She knows there is a problem. For a variety a reasons (timing, general exhaustion) I have had to turn down sex this morning and last night. I was not being passive aggressive. I just didn’t have the time or energy to devote to it and because its been soooo long since the last time - I am truly treating this like a restart opportunity, not a RESET. That is very important to note. I even mentioned it to her when I told her why today was a NO - that would should really talk before we start “that” again. It kinda rattled her but that’s Ok. I have waited since March. Another a few days is going to be ok. 

We have our talk scheduled for Thursday PM. We have a sitter scheduled. I plan to find a semi private location and bring camping chairs or a blanket and answer her question “Do you still want to be married?” (I am paraphrasing). I have the general points in my head. 

She knows there is a problem but she doesn’t seem to know how big the problem is or that its not just communication. She kinda mentioned that this morning - that communication is key. It is not that simple in our case. 

We haven’t watched the video - yet.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Marriednatlanta said:


> You know...you raise good points. She knows there is a problem. For a variety a reasons (timing, general exhaustion) I have had to turn down sex this morning and last night. I was not being passive aggressive. I just didn’t have the time or energy to devote to it and because its been soooo long since the last time - I am truly treating this like a restart opportunity, not a RESET. That is very important to note. I even mentioned it to her when I told her why today was a NO - that would should really talk before we start “that” again. It kinda rattled her but that’s Ok. I have waited since March. Another a few days is going to be ok.
> 
> We have our talk scheduled for Thursday PM. We have a sitter scheduled. I plan to find a semi private location and bring camping chairs or a blanket and answer her question “Do you still want to be married?” (I am paraphrasing). I have the general points in my head.
> 
> ...


I would preface watching the video with a simple question. "Please watch this with me, and ask yourself, is this us?"

Don't overcomplicate things. Don't suggest that the video has solutions. Focus only on whether there are things in it that the two of you can relate to. Afterwards, let her talk. See if she identifies with "Mary." You can let her know that "John" (I think it was John?) hit you... hard. The whole thing about rejection being something that literally equals pain.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Casual Observer said:


> I would preface watching the video with a simple question. "Please watch this with me, and ask yourself, is this us?"
> 
> Don't overcomplicate things. Don't suggest that the video has solutions. Focus only on whether there are things in it that the two of you can relate to. Afterwards, let her talk. See if she identifies with "Mary." You can let her know that "John" (I think it was John?) hit you... hard. The whole thing about rejection being something that literally equals pain.


Yes. 💯 💯 💯


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> You know...you raise good points. She knows there is a problem.


As you solve problems it is very important to acknowledge that you or your wife are not the problems, but that life is messy. Working together you each have the ability to "help" each other solve life's problems, but you each have to ask for help from one another. That sounds awkwardly stupid and obvious, but in reality it is not. 

We are so quick to point out each other's faults and try to insist that one needs help. A common example is a spouse sending their partner to go get their hormones checked once marital sex becomes difficult as if one of the two is somehow broken. The reality is that one person may be experiencing difficulty becoming aroused and not know what to do about it. Or one person may become aroused by stress as a way to self sooth while the other experiences the opposite. No one is broken, but there is an opportunity to learn more about each other. Once that happens you can start asking to help each other overcome life's problems that make marital relations very challenging. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

Marriednatlanta said:


> You know...you raise good points. She knows there is a problem. For a variety a reasons (timing, general exhaustion) I have had to turn down sex this morning and last night. I was not being passive aggressive. I just didn’t have the time or energy to devote to it and because its been soooo long since the last time - I am truly treating this like a restart opportunity, not a RESET. That is very important to note. I even mentioned it to her when I told her why today was a NO - that would should really talk before we start “that” again. It kinda rattled her but that’s Ok. I have waited since March. Another a few days is going to be ok.
> 
> We have our talk scheduled for Thursday PM. We have a sitter scheduled. I plan to find a semi private location and bring camping chairs or a blanket and answer her question “Do you still want to be married?” (I am paraphrasing). I have the general points in my head.
> 
> ...


It sounds like a lot has happened, either explicitly or implicitly, since your previous update. You were going to have a conversation Monday night, but now moved to Thursday night. What prompted that rescheduling? And in what context did N ask if you still want to be married? That seems like a significant recognition on her part that things are not okay.



Casual Observer said:


> Don't overcomplicate things. Don't suggest that the video has solutions. Focus only on whether there are things in it that the two of you can relate to. Afterwards, let her talk. See if she identifies with "Mary." You can let her know that "John" (I think it was John?) hit you... hard. The whole thing about rejection being something that literally equals pain.





badsanta said:


> As you solve problems it is very important to acknowledge that you or your wife are not the problems, but that life is messy. Working together you each have the ability to "help" each other solve life's problems, but you each have to ask for help from one another. That sounds awkwardly stupid and obvious, but in reality it is not.
> 
> We are so quick to point out each other's faults and try to insist that one needs help. A common example is a spouse sending their partner to go get their hormones checked once marital sex becomes difficult as if one of the two is somehow broken. The reality is that one person may be experiencing difficulty becoming aroused and not know what to do about it. Or one person may become aroused by stress as a way to self sooth while the other experiences the opposite. No one is broken, but there is an opportunity to learn more about each other. Once that happens you can start asking to help each other overcome life's problems that make marital relations very challenging.


Great posts. I strongly agree that this conversation shouldn't be an attempt to find solutions. I would consider the conversation a resounding success if you and she can both begin to share, without finger pointing or attributing fault, how you're feeling in the relationship and if you and she can begin to understand and acknowledge how the other feels (even if not why they feel that way).


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Satisfied Mind said:


> It sounds like a lot has happened, either explicitly or implicitly, since your previous update. You were going to have a conversation Monday night, but now moved to Thursday night. What prompted that rescheduling? And in what context did N ask if you still want to be married? That seems like a significant recognition on her part that things are not okay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is the basic plan. I answer the “Do you still want to be married?” And from there we have an open honest candid conversation about the state of our marriage w/o the blame game. And realistically I plan to lay out how we got here - mistakes I made, not being true to myself, spending 20 years trying keep her happy because I thought it would lead to hot, intense, kinky sex. It did not. The last 5 years have been filled with conflict etc because I have been clawing back to my normal self. My narrative goes on for a little while after that - that is the jist. I am going to keep it simple and to the point. My only significant ASK will be - please plan to share with me you entire sexual history — starting from HS. I will volunteer to fill in a missing blanks in my own history - but they are very minor. 

We moved from Monday to Thursday and now back to Wednesday due to various conflicts, life, etc....nothing sinister or passive aggressive by either one of us.


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

Marriednatlanta said:


> That is the basic plan. I answer the “Do you still want to be married?” And from there we have an open honest candid conversation about the state of our marriage w/o the blame game. And realistically I plan to lay out how we got here - mistakes I made, not being true to myself, spending 20 years trying keep her happy because I thought it would lead to hot, intense, kinky sex. It did not. The last 5 years have been filled with conflict etc because I have been clawing back to my normal self. My narrative goes on for a little while after that - that is the jist. I am going to keep it simple and to the point. *My only significant ASK will be - please plan to share with me you entire sexual history — starting from HS.* I will volunteer to fill in a missing blanks in my own history - but they are very minor.
> 
> We moved from Monday to Thursday and now back to Wednesday due to various conflicts, life, etc....nothing sinister or passive aggressive by either one of us.


I think you need to be patient and careful with this request for a couple of reasons. 

You have suspicions of sexual trauma in your wife's past, but based on what you've shared with us, the evidence appears conflicting on that point. Making a loaded request like that jumps to a conclusion, which is the opposite of what you want to be doing in this situation to open the lines of intimate communication. And your relationship does not seem to have the baseline foundation of mutual trust to begin having that discussion yet. IMHO, learning to listen and communicate effectively, understanding what your wife is feeling, and building that trust (as more than just roommates, co-parents, etc.) and intimacy is where the focus of your early conversations should be. As you begin to really understand where she's coming from and what she's feeling, then you can begin to ask more pointed questions.

Also, it's a good thing for you to share with her your deep unhappiness and dissatisfaction with your sexual relationship and your desire for something more. But asking a loaded question like that implicitly attributes fault and blame for that issue in the marriage, which will have the opposite of the desired effect, which is to get your wife to open up about her feelings on the subject.

Looking at how it might play out, let's say that your wife's sexual past is not a significant contributing factor to your current sexual relationship. Asking a question like that before she shares information with you giving you a reason to ask that question will have you barking up the wrong tree. It will drive you further from the real issues, and it will make her wonder whether you're actually listening to her or understand her. And even if her sexual past is a significant contributing factor, asking that question in restart conversation no. 1 is much too premature. If it's really an issue for her, it will be an extremely sensitive subject, and you probing like that right out of the gate is only going to reinforce her walls.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Satisfied Mind said:


> I think you need to be patient and careful with this request for a couple of reasons.
> 
> You have suspicions of sexual trauma in your wife's past, but based on what you've shared with us, the evidence appears conflicting on that point. Making a loaded request like that jumps to a conclusion, which is the opposite of what you want to be doing in this situation to open the lines of intimate communication. And your relationship does not seem to have the baseline foundation of mutual trust to begin having that discussion yet. IMHO, learning to listen and communicate effectively, understanding what your wife is feeling, and building that trust (as more than just roommates, co-parents, etc.) and intimacy is where the focus of your early conversations should be. As you begin to really understand where she's coming from and what she's feeling, then you can begin to ask more pointed questions.
> 
> ...


Ok. I had to move it back to Thursday anyway. More to time to collect my thoughts.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Satisfied Mind said:


> You have suspicions of sexual trauma in your wife's past, but based on what you've shared with us, the evidence appears conflicting on that point.


Experience is showing me that it doesn't take "sexual trauma" to cause real issues. Sometimes it's triggers. Thing that remind someone of something they wished hadn't happened. Not traumatic, just a choice they later regret. Covering up that choice can lead down a very bad path, involving lack of honesty, both to themself, and their partner. 

Honesty to oneself. I am beginning to understand that a lot of people really aren't honest to themselves. Instead of processing a mistake and moving on, they would prefer not to think about it, pretend it didn't happen. And that's what leads them down a path of triggering events... anything that might remind them of what they would rather not think of, becomes something they avoid. And that includes... sex itself. Emotions attached to sex. A lot of interesting things.

Inability to process our history, recent or path, is not a good thing. EMDR is beginning to show signs of progress for my wife, and may help with @Marriednatlanta 's wife as well. But when it's triggers, not trauma, the path to recovery can be even longer, because what you're chasing may be difficult to comprehend and define.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Marriednatlanta said:


> *w/o the blame game*. And realistically I plan to lay out how we got here - mistakes I made, *not being true to myself*, spending 20 years *trying keep her happy *because I thought it would lead to hot, intense, kinky sex. It did not. The last 5 years have been filled with conflict etc because I have been clawing back to my normal self. My narrative goes on for a little while after that - that is the jist. I am going to keep it simple and to the point. My only significant ASK will be - please plan to share with me you entire sexual history — starting from HS. I will volunteer to fill in a missing blanks in my own history - but they are very minor.
> 
> We moved from Monday to Thursday and now back to Wednesday due to various conflicts, life, etc....nothing sinister or passive aggressive by either one of us.


And you think this is a conversation without blame? Basically you aren't happy because of her and now you are going to be true to yourself. I don't see this conversation heading anywhere.

And you are kinda moving the goal posts. You went from frequent quality sex to hot, wild, intense kinky sex. So she's just gonna make that jump overnight (while not orgasming and having anxiety over this. Just divorce her. Put her out of her misery.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> And you think this is a conversation without blame? Basically you aren't happy because of her and now you are going to be true to yourself. I don't see this conversation heading anywhere.
> 
> And you are kinda moving the goal posts. You went from frequent quality sex to hot, wild, intense kinky sex. So she's just gonna make that jump overnight (while not orgasming and having anxiety over this. Just divorce her. Put her out of her misery.


You make some good points. I realize my narrative is not translating well to this forum. And I re-read some of my previous posts and does sound like I am taking the “blame”. I am not. All set to talk tonight at 5:30 - 7:30.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> And you think this is a conversation without blame? Basically you aren't happy because of her and now you are going to be true to yourself. I don't see this conversation heading anywhere.
> 
> And you are kinda moving the goal posts. You went from frequent quality sex to hot, wild, intense kinky sex. So she's just gonna make that jump overnight (while not orgasming and having anxiety over this. Just divorce her. Put her out of her misery.


We cannot discount that there are some conversations where the blame is, in fact, 95% on one side. But it does seem like @Marriednatlanta may have moved the goal posts, and that's not exactly fair. Presenting a moving target makes it very tough to get to the finish line.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

So how did it go?


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> So how did it go?


Good. I am not going to bore everyone with a detailed “I said this” “She said that” etc...and there is still a reality for BOTH of us we may not make it. I am more optimistic vs pessimistic at this point. I made the main points I wanted too — she countered with some points (some I had not considered) etc...

We both independently agreed and commented that we just were not that close to each other - that we don’t know each other very well, that we are lacking a true emotional connection. 

I was able to make the point that I know NOTHING about her sexual history and would need a detailed response on that before we reestablish our sexual relatoinship — which is still on hold. That part of the conversation was probably the better part of the conversation. Me expressing things that I had not fully and transparently said to her in the past; 


Frequency
HD vs LD
Desire to explore, try new things, fantasies, lite kink
Basic needs not being met for 20 years
My HD dropping slowely over the last 5 years
etc......

I know this time will be different because she knows I really have thought about the “We might be better co-parents” than Husband/Wife team” scenario. 

DM me if any of you specific questions.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Frequency
> HD vs LD
> Desire to explore, try new things, fantasies, lite kink
> Basic needs not being met for 20 years
> ...


A long time ago I would have pointed out a similar list to my wife, but as things got better my perspective changed.

Frequency - This one can be challenging because when you compare the frequency of desiring a one-sided experience where one spouse pleases the other versus a shared experience where you both please each other, odds are you find the HD is the one that rejects more sex than the LD. Most HD spouses demand the other spouse enjoy it regardless of if that person can get in the mood or not. 

HD versus LD, in my opinion there is no such thing. You could better describe it as having arousal incompatibilities. Both of you are equally as capable but perhaps one is trying to define the other using an incorrect model of what is needed to achieve arousal. The most common is that society uses the male-model-of-sexual-response to determine if a woman has problems with her arousal/libido. Try reading "Come As You Are."

Desire to explore - You can do that solo all you want and if you discover something you can take responsibility for it and share that with your spouse. Don't assume you can make her responsible for expressing your desire for a lite kink as that will only make her feel anxiety as if she will never be good enough for you.

His needs / her needs. Odds are her needs are not being met either. She likely asked you to help her with something, you said sure but still haven't gotten around to it. For me an example of me not meeting my wife's needs would be me being lazy about replacing the light bulb over the stove so she can see better while cooking for our family. Little things like that add up fast as it pertains to her needs not being met and those problems later manifesting as sexual problems in the bedroom. 

HD dropping over the years.... While that can happen, it is as if you are blaming your wife for missing out on greener grass over on the other side of the fence. If so you are only serving to add to your problems of perhaps making your wife feel inadequate (if she struggles with that).


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

What points did your wife bring up?


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> What points did your wife bring up?


Regarding sex/intimacy....


Feeling exhausted from daily life makes it hard to be in the “mood” (not new)
Not having an emotional connection does not lend itself to wanting to have sex (new because we both agreed)
Limited experience befor me (that was kinda news)
General ways we relate that ultimately drive her sex drive DOWN not up (this part was not new - and was tense - a few take aways for me that are not deal breakers and actually are easier to address then I thought))
Some big picture comments that helped me understand more about how she views sex/intimacy
Not into kink (lite or otherwise) this was not a deep discussion but I did have to explain the to her the difference between FANTASY and reality in terms of what I likes, wanted, etc...and how fantasy and reality work together. Not going into further detail on this but it was a topic and I had to re-explain it twice because she got hung up on the word KINK.
Willing to disclose/share with me her past experiences at later but sooner date. She wanted time to think.
Explained the patch debacle to me from her perspective. We agreed lack of communication on that was bad and resulted in hurt feelings and sent a bad message.

I am summarizing but thats the gist. No need to buy any confetti yet.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Not into kink (lite or otherwise) this was not a deep discussion but I did have to explain the to her the difference between FANTASY and reality in terms of what I likes, wanted, etc...and how fantasy and reality work together. Not going into further detail on this but it was a topic and I had to re-explain it twice because she got hung up on the word KINK.


I'll give you a model of how kink/fantasies work in my marriage as I have a few odd ones. Once I got up the courage to ask my wife to try some things, her response was that she could not understand "why" I was asking her to try something a little different. Not understanding the "why" is what made her uncomfortable. At that time I did not understand myself why I liked what it was that I liked. It took me a while to better understand myself and then have a conversation about THAT with her as opposed to just asking for something a little kinky in the bedroom. THEN once she understood what I was asking her to do. Her response was that we could do that anytime I wanted, but that she wanted me to be the one to take responsibility for making it easily happen as opposed to her being responsible for doing it. So now I get to enjoy my kink with her as much as I want. She understands why I enjoy it and can easily participate without any fear that I will get frustrated if something didn't work out the way I wanted (because I take responsibility for my own kink). 

Let me try to come up with an GENERIC EXAMPLE KINK as an illustration. Imagine if you have a serious kink for NURU massage but your wife does not understand why you like it and also has no interest in being the one to clean up five gallons of coconut oil off the ceiling, walls, and floors. Nor does she want to go cook dinner and find all the cooking oils missing or six empty jars of coconut oil hidden behind the couch. Once you explain that it is the sensation of a very soft and slippery touch all over and that other forms of touch feel uncomfortable or rough she might begin to understand. She might ask if there is a way to explore that without using oils and making a mess and for you to try and figure that out. So as a husband you have to be more responsible and creative so that your wife does not get frustrated and at the same time feels more comfortable allowing you to explore nuru massage. Eventually you discover that wrapping yourself up in layers of silk sheets facilitates this kink and you buy some for the bedroom. No more mess to clean, your wife understand you want a soft and slippery touch instead of something rough and everyone is happy. 

So taking responsibility for your kink may mean having to fully explain yourself to your spouse and it may also mean getting really creative so your wife can easily facilitate your desires.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

You need to be realistic about the outcome if you want to work on it. You need to think about what can actually be achieved rather than some perfect outcome that is essentially just a fantasy. Based on all the things you've written about how she feels about sex, it's highly unlikely that she's going to have a breakthrough and become much more sexual. Things can certainly get better, but it doesn't seem like it's going to be straightforward to get improvement. If she doesn't feel that way about you, it's going to be a challenge to create those feelings, and maybe it will be impossible. 

You should probably drop the request to find out about her sexual history. It's normal for people's desire to change over the years. Whatever she did or didn't do when she was younger may have little bearing on what is going on now. Trying to delve into that may be emotionally exhausting and end up wasting a lot of time and effort trying to use those past experiences to apply to what is going on today. And keep in mind that those early experiences were in short-term relationships. Desire always changes as relationships go on for years or decades. You can't compare sex in your your marriage to relationships that only lasted a few months.

These things:

Feeling exhausted from daily life makes it hard to be in the “mood” (not new)
Not having an emotional connection does not lend itself to wanting to have sex (new because we both agreed)
General ways we relate that ultimately drive her sex drive DOWN not up (this part was not new - and was tense - a few take aways for me that are not deal breakers and actually are easier to address then I thought))
Are indications that you guys have drifted apart. The feeling exhausted is a common excuse, but it's just one of convenience. If she wanted sex, she would de-stress her life and make the time for it. And not having an emotional connection and the way you relate together driving her desire down are indications that you don't have that kind of intimate connection anymore. Whatever magic created the spark initially is not there now. That's going to be the hard thing to restore. It can't be done pragmatically. You guys feel in love because of that magic rather than because of some pragmatic matching of life goals. 

The type of intimacy that can likely be achieved is one more of practicality rather than passion. She can probably get to a point where she enjoys sex, but in a more generic way from sharing time with you. She may never be spontaneous or instigate it, but she may be agreeable if you initiate. If you think more along those lines, you can likely achieve something that could work in the long term. But if you have a goal that's too lofty, trying to achieve it will likely end up causing your relationship to crash.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

duplicate


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

wilson said:


> You need to be realistic about the outcome if you want to work on it. You need to think about what can actually be achieved rather than some perfect outcome that is essentially just a fantasy. Based on all the things you've written about how she feels about sex, it's highly unlikely that she's going to have a breakthrough and become much more sexual. Things can certainly get better, but it doesn't seem like it's going to be straightforward to get improvement. If she doesn't feel that way about you, it's going to be a challenge to create those feelings, and maybe it will be impossible.
> 
> You should probably drop the request to find out about her sexual history. It's normal for people's desire to change over the years. Whatever she did or didn't do when she was younger may have little bearing on what is going on now. Trying to delve into that may be emotionally exhausting and end up wasting a lot of time and effort trying to use those past experiences to apply to what is going on today. And keep in mind that those early experiences were in short-term relationships. Desire always changes as relationships go on for years or decades. You can't compare sex in your your marriage to relationships that only lasted a few months.
> 
> ...


I think I see where you are going...and I agree that we are talking about reestablishing an emotional connection that for whatever reason was never very strong, despite being together for 24 years. We agreed on this last week (at dinner.)

I am not dropping the “history” request simply because I feel I have the right to know about any trauma and how that might effect her thinking regarding sex. It also allows us to talk about what is on the menu and what is not on the menu. 

We had a decent weekend that including some sex on Saturday AM — it was more mutual and less one way. We did not have a bunch of time, in fact we relocated to our walk-in closet bc our door was being knocked on. In the past we would have just thrown in the towel. 

We have a small window this week where we will be in a hotel together for a few hours. Looks promising......


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

badsanta said:


> I'll give you a model of how kink/fantasies work in my marriage as I have a few odd ones. Once I got up the courage to ask my wife to try some things, her response was that she could not understand "why" I was asking her to try something a little different. Not understanding the "why" is what made her uncomfortable. At that time I did not understand myself why I liked what it was that I liked. It took me a while to better understand myself and then have a conversation about THAT with her as opposed to just asking for something a little kinky in the bedroom. THEN once she understood what I was asking her to do. Her response was that we could do that anytime I wanted, but that she wanted me to be the one to take responsibility for making it easily happen as opposed to her being responsible for doing it. So now I get to enjoy my kink with her as much as I want. She understands why I enjoy it and can easily participate without any fear that I will get frustrated if something didn't work out the way I wanted (because I take responsibility for my own kink).
> 
> Let me try to come up with an GENERIC EXAMPLE KINK as an illustration. Imagine if you have a serious kink for NURU massage but your wife does not understand why you like it and also has no interest in being the one to clean up five gallons of coconut oil off the ceiling, walls, and floors. Nor does she want to go cook dinner and find all the cooking oils missing or six empty jars of coconut oil hidden behind the couch. Once you explain that it is the sensation of a very soft and slippery touch all over and that other forms of touch feel uncomfortable or rough she might begin to understand. She might ask if there is a way to explore that without using oils and making a mess and for you to try and figure that out. So as a husband you have to be more responsible and creative so that your wife does not get frustrated and at the same time feels more comfortable allowing you to explore nuru massage. Eventually you discover that wrapping yourself up in layers of silk sheets facilitates this kink and you buy some for the bedroom. No more mess to clean, your wife understand you want a soft and slippery touch instead of something rough and everyone is happy.
> 
> ...


This is good feedback. I will introduce this after the “history” chat because it will have more context. I also told her I have more to share that will help explain my drive/interests/desires. I am little nervous because it requires me to be very transparent and vulnerable.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Desire to explore - You can do that solo all you want and if you discover something you can take responsibility for it and share that with your spouse. Don't assume you can make her responsible for expressing your desire for a lite kink as that will only make her feel anxiety as if she will never be good enough for you.
> 
> His needs / her needs. Odds are her needs are not being met either. She likely asked you to help her with something, you said sure but still haven't gotten around to it. For me an example of me not meeting my wife's needs would be me being lazy about replacing the light bulb over the stove so she can see better while cooking for our family. Little things like that add up fast as it pertains to her needs not being met and those problems later manifesting as sexual problems in the bedroom.


Just to clarify — I am probably not perfectly expressing my “desire to explore” request. But I know what I’d like to try and how it ties into her being an active participant in our sex life. 

She did mention some things in a general sense that drive her sex drive DOWN. I am working on those things - nothing really I was not aware of but just paid less attention to because I was either resentful over no/limited sex, tired in general, too focused on the “what’s on the list” of life for our household. This ties back to us having a weak emotional connection which in turn does not make her “want” to have sex. Not sure I am perfectly articulating it - but I know what she is saying.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

If she doesnt have a connection with you now. No "talking about it" is going to make her have one. She isnt going to have months of discussions and then one day say, "Hey! You are right!" You are totally sexy and I want to do anything you want to do." My suggestion would be to divorce and find someone more in line with what you like.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Just to clarify — I am probably not perfectly expressing my “desire to explore” request. But *I know what I’d like to try and how it ties into her being an active participant in our sex life.
> 
> She did mention some things in a general sense that drive her sex drive DOWN.* I am working on those things - nothing really I was not aware of but just paid less attention to because I was either resentful over no/limited sex, tired in general, too focused on the “what’s on the list” of life for our household. This ties back to us having a weak emotional connection which in turn does not make her “want” to have sex. Not sure I am perfectly articulating it - but I know what she is saying.


When having similar conversations with my own wife about adding different things to the menu so to speak, my wife emphasized that she needed things to just be kept simple and natural. This did not mean that things needed to be taken off the menu, but that it was important for me to take responsibility and resolve logistics ahead of time. Using a simple example of an adult novelty, it would be up to me to have that preemptively hidden under the pillow (or within reach) ahead of time so in the moment that it would be right there without having to interrupt, go get it, check the batteries, and so on. Ahead of time we had already discussed things days before and determined what things were ok and how to add that to the menu when desired.

So in the heat of the moment for me was NOT the time to ask consent to try something different or start making provisions for it to happen.

Now awkwardly once someone is aroused, they are way more open minded. So the timing of these discussions may best occur during quality time when there is a strong emotional connection with positive moods, but the moment does not lend itself to full on intimacy. An example might be during a long car ride and having a good conversation about everything.

Regards,
Badsanta


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

Hoosier said:


> If she doesnt have a connection with you now. No "talking about it" is going to make her have one. She isnt going to have months of discussions and then one day say, "Hey! You are right!" You are totally sexy and I want to do anything you want to do." My suggestion would be to divorce and find someone more in line with what you like.


Maybe not, but saving a 20+ year marriage seems worth a shot. I do agree that it's going to take more than "talking about it." 

Rebuilding intimacy (or building it for the first time), at least in my case, was a very difficult and one-sided thing at first. It has meant making myself vulnerable and risking (or experiencing) rejection, but continuing to put myself out there. It has meant being brutally honest and initiating difficult conversations, but being careful to do so in a way that is considerate of my wife's feelings. It has meant working to become much more observant, better at asking questions that stimulate more than surface level conversations, and being a much more active listener. The hardest part was persistently working to improve those things about myself, even when I didn't see any (much) progress on my wife's side or when we had a setback.

My wife and I have talked about how it would probably be easier in some ways for us to both start over with other people with whom we were more compatible right out of the box (goes back to having deeply honest conversations), but in many ways we've been really good for each other. Plus, speaking for myself, I would almost certainly run into many of the same intimacy problems with anyone else because a lot of the barriers stem from my own issues, so I need to do this work anyway.

MIA, how's it been going since your talk? Keep us posted.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Satisfied Mind said:


> Maybe not, but saving a 20+ year marriage seems worth a shot. I do agree that it's going to take more than "talking about it."
> 
> Rebuilding intimacy (or building it for the first time), at least in my case, was a very difficult and one-sided thing at first. It has meant making myself vulnerable and risking (or experiencing) rejection, but continuing to put myself out there. It has meant being brutally honest and initiating difficult conversations, but being careful to do so in a way that is considerate of my wife's feelings. It has meant working to become much more observant, better at asking questions that stimulate more than surface level conversations, and being a much more active listener. The hardest part was persistently working to improve those things about myself, even when I didn't see any (much) progress on my wife's side or when we had a setback.
> 
> ...



Update: Everything you wrote (above) I could have written. We are steadily working at building that emotional connection. We have had some success and some failure, failure being we resort back to our old way of relating. The sex has been kinda off the radar for a minute or two due to a variety of issues - timing, cycle, interest etc...I have definitely clued into things I was doing that really eroded our EC and I think she has too. We were supposed to have a date night over the weekend but had to cancel. I believe she is ready to tell me about her “past”. I think we are in a more honest place. More real. In some cases, more raw. 

I am more optimistic vs pessimistic. Stay tuned...


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Update: Everything you wrote (above) I could have written. We are steadily working at building that emotional connection. We have had some success and some failure, failure being we resort back to our old way of relating. The sex has been kinda off the radar for a minute or two due to a variety of issues - timing, cycle, interest etc...I have definitely clued into things I was doing that really eroded our EC and I think she has too. We were supposed to have a date night over the weekend but had to cancel. I believe she is ready to tell me about her “past”. I think we are in a more honest place. More real. In some cases, more raw.
> 
> I am more optimistic vs pessimistic. Stay tuned...


Why does this seem familiar?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> I believe she is ready to tell me about her “past”.


If I can be curious, what dynamics about her past are the most important to you? Is it the notion that someone else pleased her more or less than you intimately so that you know where you stand as a lover by comparison? Or is it the notion that someone else may have harmed/hurt her and you want to be able to be aware and more caring towards her in that regard? Or is it the notion that you feel that she currently fantasizes about someone else in her past in a way that keeps her distant from you? 

If you feel strongly that you fall into one of those categories, perhaps you should make yourself vulnerable and share with her how you feel on the topic before she opens up. This way she can do so at least with some context so that she can better address your concerns.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Nucking Futs said:


> Why does this seem familiar?


That’s a fair question except this time we are on a path of “it gets better or we will become co-parents”. She understands based on our last conversation I’m willing to go down that path if we can’t figure it out.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

badsanta said:


> If I can be curious, what dynamics about her past are the most important to you? Is it the notion that someone else pleased her more or less than you intimately so that you know where you stand as a lover by comparison? Or is it the notion that someone else may have harmed/hurt her and you want to be able to be aware and more caring towards her in that regard? Or is it the notion that you feel that she currently fantasizes about someone else in her past in a way that keeps her distant from you?
> 
> If you feel strongly that you fall into one of those categories, perhaps you should make yourself vulnerable and share with her how you feel on the topic before she opens up. This way she can do so at least with some context so that she can better address your concerns.
> 
> ...


Mostly #2 because I want to understand the mental blocks bad memories etc...whatever is preventing her from embracing sex - or her sexuality. I think she is carrying around a truckload of grief or resentment or something. Once I know that and I share some more of my past we should be ready to rock and roll. 😂

Probably a small part of me is also into the “who, when, how was it, what did you do” before me.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Mostly #2 because I want to understand the mental blocks bad memories etc...whatever is preventing her from embracing sex - or her sexuality. I think she is carrying around a truckload of grief or resentment or something. Once I know that and I share some more of my past we should be ready to rock and roll. 😂
> 
> Probably a small part of me is also into the “who, when, how was it, what did you do” before me.


While I am no expert on the topic of past abuse, from what I have read people as a result tend to have a very strong sexual aversions or become hypersexual. This behavior would be persistent as opposed to the relationship starting out OK and then gradually becoming problematic. So if things have gradually gotten worse, then you have to take a look in the mirror and stop looking for other things or someone else to blame. If by chance there was abuse, trying to discuss that while you are leaning on the fence to decide if you want to stay married or not seems like an extremely unhealthy forum to insist on that discussion. You would probably best be served to take yourself to a therapist and get some professional guidance and education for approaching that topic.

As for wanting to know where you stand among her other partners along with who did what, when, where, and how will only serve as a point of comparison. By nature comparison tends to be the thief of joy and will make you be more observant/critical of yourself instead of being closer to your wife.

Either take yourself to a therapist to help educate yourself on past abusive relationships and how to actually recognize it and help someone, or just let it go. That would be my advice. 

Badsanta

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Ok originally you wanted to know if her sexual past such as assault effected how she is now. Perhaps a legitimate question. Now you want to compare her complete sexual history, who what where when. This will not end well. You had a right to these questions before you married. Now they will not serve any purpose but to make you mad or sad or jealous. 

And holding sexual history is abusive hostage to marriage is counter productive. 

This will not end well. Nor will it accomplish anything you desire. You are about to build more resentment.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> Ok originally you wanted to know if her sexual past such as assault effected how she is now. Perhaps a legitimate question. Now you want to compare her complete sexual history, who what where when. This will not end well. You had a right to these questions before you married. Now they will not serve any purpose but to make you mad or sad or jealous.
> 
> And holding sexual history is abusive hostage to marriage is counter productive.
> 
> This will not end well. Nor will it accomplish anything you desire. You are about to build more resentment.


That’s not the vibe I am getting so far. I think she is looking forward to it in some ways. As part of our new beginning. I


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

@Marriednatlanta How is your emotional intimacy progressing. I note that alot of the focus is on the physical sex (lack thereof) part. You also mention that you are not very close. How do you intend to work on emotional intimacy which is very important for a female. She will probably be much more up for the physical side of the relationship if you tend to emotional intimacy. Women and men are very different in this department. Men's physical needs can be equated to hunger, it is that powerful Women on the other hand don't have that 'drive' at least when they are older. Their need is for emotional intimacy so that it is safe.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

badsanta said:


> While I am no expert on the topic of past abuse, from what I have read people as a result tend to have a very strong sexual aversions or become hypersexual. This behavior would be persistent as opposed to the relationship starting out OK and then gradually becoming problematic. So if things have gradually gotten worse, then you have to take a look in the mirror and stop looking for other things or someone else to blame. If by chance there was abuse, trying to discuss that while you are leaning on the fence to decide if you want to stay married or not seems like an extremely unhealthy forum to insist on that discussion. You would probably best be served to take yourself to a therapist and get some professional guidance and education for approaching that topic.


WRT to the abuse, it’s analogous your partnering wanting to build a house on land that you’re partner grow up on and inherited. Unbeknownst to you (but known to her) is that the property sits on top on an unmediated toxic chemical site. So you’re excited ‘cause its a great looking property and build a house. A few moths or years later, you notice there is a nasty smell somewhere in your house but can’t pinpoint. Your partner blames it on your or someone else. Then you to start seeing this nasty stuff in your basement. Again, your partner blames it on you or someone else. Eventually she feels she has to tell you but only tells you a little bit but nowhere near the whole truth. So now you’re frustrated because this stuff effects your relationship almost daily. There is a discussion on cleaning it up but it’s gonna take years and a ton of work that only she can do but with help of professional. So in the end, there are two victims in this. The first partner who was the initial victim, knew about the pollution doesn’t want to relive it through the clean-up and may or not feel bad about withholding that info. The other feels misled and now has to live with the consequences of what happened to his parter and is helpless to address something they they had nothing to do with but is faced with everyday. 

Seeking IC is warranted because you need somewhere to vent besides your wife. I get it. You have two different objectives. Her’s is safety and to forget it. Yours is to address this and fix because it is likely the root cause of sexual issues in your marriage. There are two diametrically opposed things here. One is this traumatic event(s) happened to her, it’s her pain, it’s something deeply private and hurtful and how/if she deals with it is to be respected. She’s grieving the loss to her innocence. The other is that event(s) effects you, you had nothing to do with it, it wasn’t fully addressed before marriage and you feel helpless/misled. Your grieving the loss of sexual connection. Those are both legitimate feelings but you are responsible for you own.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

Kinda crazy how all those times that involve (maybe) sex keep getting canceled. Amazing! only thing more amazing to me is how you keep kicking the can down the road, and happy to do so. I almost wrote "hope you find what you are looking for" then realized that maybe you found it 20 years ago and are living it.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Hoosier said:


> Kinda crazy how all those times that involve (maybe) sex keep getting canceled. Amazing! only thing more amazing to me is how you keep kicking the can down the road, and happy to do so. I almost wrote "hope you find what you are looking for" then realized that maybe you found it 20 years ago and are living it.


Kinda negative but I think I follow...


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

aine said:


> @Marriednatlanta How is your emotional intimacy progressing. I note that alot of the focus is on the physical sex (lack thereof) part. You also mention that you are not very close. How do you intend to work on emotional intimacy which is very important for a female. She will probably be much more up for the physical side of the relationship if you tend to emotional intimacy. Women and men are very different in this department. Men's physical needs can be equated to hunger, it is that powerful Women on the other hand don't have that 'drive' at least when they are older. Their need is for emotional intimacy so that it is safe.


Update coming soon. Need more time.


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Update coming soon. Need more time.


How's it going, MiA? 

Have you and your wife given any thought to seeing a marriage counselor? It very much accelerated the process for my wife and me. It gave us a safe space to have difficult conversations, gave us tools to communicate better outside of sessions, held us accountable for doing work on our relationship, etc. The therapist also served as an independent sounding board whenever we got "stuck" on any issues.


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## Deguello (Apr 3, 2015)

Marriednatlanta said:


> today


Still minimal,got rejected twice in to days, a little an Angry and hurt
I asked her if she wanted to fool around,all I got was a giggle and no answer. I am thinking about just being a roomate


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

I think for some women there is a distinct relief when “that part of their life is over” except you can’t do it unilaterally and expect no consequences. Hence the avoidance game starts.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Prediction: It won’t go as planned.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

aaarghdub said:


> I think for some women there is a distinct relief when “that part of their life is over” except you can’t do it unilaterally and expect no consequences. Hence the avoidance game starts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


This idea of "that part of their life is over" is pretty absurd. It puts sex on the level of something purely physical or procreative. Our sexual bits & pieces don't shrivel up and die on their own. They shrivel up and die from neglect. The idea that chemo can destroy everything... that's another myth that becomes reality only when people give in to it. When we allow ourselves to "go" then guess what, we're gone.

Not to say things aren't going to be different as we age, but my wife has PLENTY of really serious issues about sex, but physical capability is not one of them. At 63 appropriate stimulation (oral to orgasm) will get her so slippery and enlarged that the biggest issue might be a lack of feeling. 

But what happens at MC? I'm given all these physical reasons why sex is difficult for her, why what I'm asking might be unreasonable, and none of them are true. But do you think a sex-avoidant woman will tell the therapist that, when she's getting a get-out-of-jail-free card?

OK, this is a sample size of one, your mileage may vary, and I'm guessing a woman who had an active and enjoyable sex life early on might be affected more negatively if/when things do dry out, when the hormones no longer have you really wanting sex for yourself.

For yourself. That's just so wrong, in my book, to be focusing on "yourself" and not you as a couple, and as a couple, the guy should be looking out for the woman's unmet needs, and vice versa. It's the nice thing to do. It should be the enjoyable thing to do. This idea that enjoyment should only come from things you want for yourself is selfish. Many of the things I enjoy most are those I do for my wife. Things I wouldn't want to do on my own. 

Sorry. Hope I didn't do a threadjack here.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Casual Observer said:


> This idea of "that part of their life is over" is pretty absurd. It puts sex on the level of something purely physical or procreative. Our sexual bits & pieces don't shrivel up and die on their own. They shrivel up and die from neglect. The idea that chemo can destroy everything... that's another myth that becomes reality only when people give in to it. When we allow ourselves to "go" then guess what, we're gone.


It’s not that absurd. Many women look forward to menopause because they’re tired of having horrible periods, cramps, migraines, hormone spikes, PMS, etc. This is no different than a partner excited that the “dating” phase of life is over (since they’re married now) and they can be themselves and not be on their best behavior. You are right in terms of “use it or lose it.” Many just assume their partner’s ex drive is the same. “I’m OK with no sex, no logical reason why he shouldn’t be OK.”

Some women have a tremendous emotional struggle every time they have sex due to trauma triggering. Many of these same women knowingly fight a tsunami of negative emotions surrounding sex because they know it’s required to attract and keep a mate, have children, etc. They also know if they don’t suppress that dread or hide it from a potential suitor they will be forever single. Why? Men marry primary for companionship, sex and family. Most women do not marry for sex but security, family and companionship. These same women would be perfectly happy getting the best no-sex marriage for the rest of their lives but they can’t say that to their partner.

You’re lucky to have the sex life you do. I salute you. Your wife chooses to be open and excited as you are. I and many others like OP wish we had that but we don’t because we’re paying emotion reparations for something we had nothing to do with. It’s merely an opposing comfort zone construct. You and your wife share the ability to operate freely in each other’s comfort zone... others do not. 

In my case and likely OP’s case, the man’s comfort zone is the size of a beach ball while the wife’s is the size of a baseball. She enjoys freedom to maneuver in his but he does not have the same ability as hers is confining and controls the relationship. Her marriage is awesome while he’s perpetually being denied that emotional connection. 

Example: my wife says she want a new shower installed which includes moving pipes around. I’ve never solder pipes before but I’m not afraid to teach myself. I say sure, teach myself and deliver a new shower (which I’ve done). She enjoys that ability that I’m not afraid to tackle it. I have set no constraints as it’s in my comfort zone. I like to go on long bike rides for exercise with my wife but she sets constrains based on her baseball: less than 10 miles, on paths not roads, 9 mph vs 14, water breaks every 15 minutes, “competing” reinforces low self esteem, etc. Now I will never get what I want based on the baseball yet she will always get what she wants. 

I think in OPs case, his wife knows she just can’t come out and say she doesn’t want sex ever again and wishes she didn’t have to deal with anymore for whatever reason. But she knows that would be an expressway to divorce. So she avoids it and erects barriers. That was my point.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

It IS absurd to both think and say that just because you reach menopause _that part of your life is over_, meaning a sexual relationship with your HUSBAND. There's no rule that menopause equals no sex. Post menopausal women around the world have sex. 

It's absurd to state or or think it as a fact.

If that part of your life is over then the -having a husband part- of your life is maybe over, a marriage is a sexual relationship.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

aaarghdub said:


> It’s not that absurd. Many women look forward to menopause because they’re tired of having horrible periods, cramps, migraines, hormone spikes, PMS, etc. This is no different than a partner excited that the “dating” phase of life is over (since they’re married now) and they can be themselves and not be on their best behavior. You are right in terms of “use it or lose it.” Many just assume their partner’s ex drive is the same. “I’m OK with no sex, no logical reason why he shouldn’t be OK.”
> 
> Some women have a tremendous emotional struggle every time they have sex due to trauma triggering. Many of these same women knowingly fight a tsunami of negative emotions surrounding sex because they know it’s required to attract and keep a mate, have children, etc. They also know if they don’t suppress that dread or hide it from a potential suitor they will be forever single. Why? Men marry primary for companionship, sex and family. Most women do not marry for sex but security, family and companionship. These same women would be perfectly happy getting the best no-sex for the rest of their lives but they can’t say that to their partner.
> 
> ...


Not just bold, but red! Next part meant to be humorous, not nasty-

You
have
no
idea

No reason to go through my threads and all; but in general, my wife has been in hiding from her true self for 42 years, caught in a lie she told 2 years before marriage to me and trapping me initially in guilt (that I'd "taken" something that I didn't know had already been.... virginity... from her) and then rejecting me sexually for 42 years for reasons unknown. Until recently, when it turns out that I was the way out for her, a way out of a past she was ashamed of, and now we've been engaged in IC, MC, and starting Monday, seeing a very expensive sex therapist. Isn't life exciting???!!!

By the way, regarding bike rides, getting her a nice e-bike might help with that. A Class-1 ebike with a Bosch motor will make her feel like superwoman, and costs... let's see... not all that many counseling sessions! About $2500. I know this stuff cycling is my biz. Best of luck for your situation!


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Deguello said:


> Still minimal,got rejected twice in to days, a little an Angry and hurt
> I asked her if she wanted to fool around,all I got was a giggle and no answer. I am thinking about just being a roomate


Uh....wrong thread @Deguello ....


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