# Do emotional/verbal abusers change?



## 3littleangelsmom

I am so confused. I have been in what I am just now coming to grips with was a 15 year marriage of emotional and verbal abuse.
I had a breakdown and decided to leave temporarily until I could get my head above water and get "healthy". My husband is VERY deperate to save the marriage. He says he will change and do whatever it takes, but I have very little trust in him. Can they change or is it part of their personality? I feel like I have been here before many times and told him things that were wrong in our relationship, he would change it for a couple weeks and then become complacent and fall back. It has been very cyclical. I want out SO badly, but am afraid not to give him every opportunity to make it right, but I don't love, respect, or trust him. I want to be able to say I did everything possible so I can leave without guilt. Can they change or is it just ingrained? Will counseling help or will be going around in circles? HELP!!


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## that_girl

Can they? Yes. I was one. I have been self-healing for 6 weeks now (therapy and my own meditations) and have come to terms with many of my issues that made me the way I was.

SAYING he will change will not change him. He has to work. It sucks. It's scary and uncomfortable....but necessary to be healthy.

I wish you and your husband the best.


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## Ten_year_hubby

Yes, anyone and everyone can change for the better. Yes counseling helps a lot. Yes, it will probably require your help.


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## Kauaiguy

*Only IF they want to bad enough!* As with any habit, they are hard to break. One MUST remain *FOCUSED *and keep working at it.

If you know anyone who was an alcoholic or a die hard smoker, it takes a lot of will power and sometimes help from outside sources to break the habit.

One or two months WON'T do it, and if he doesn't remain focused ... he will revert back to his old self time and time again.

I would say that a year of continual effort may eventually curve him of his abusive ways.

Good luck to both of you and hope that he follows through.


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## that_girl

One or two months CAN change things...I have been working my ass off to get to the bottom of my issues.

I just faced my biggest issue of all...it's scary as hell. But I'm a grown woman now and I don't want to be controlled by the past any longer. there's too much to lose.


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## Jellybeans

3littleangelsmom said:


> Can they change or is it part of their personality?


I personally feel that it's a character defect/issue. 
A personality problem" or whatever you want to define it as. 

Its rare the abuser that changes. They tend to change for a little bit but what they are is always there. And they also tend to get worse over time. It's sick, really. 

I think the ones who do change have an epiphany or something major has to happen for them to realize the damage they have caused and inflicted on their loved ones/people around them. It can and will only change IF they admit/realize there is a problem, get help for the problem, acknowledg ethe problem, apologize to those they have hurt and actually COMMIT to changing the destructive behavior. 

My ex was very emotionally abusive and even when I talk to him now, it's still there, that "dark cloud"--lingering in the background. 

You can't give in to their tantrums. Stand your ground. You mentioned it's "cyclical," and you are spot on. Abuse IS cyclical. It's one big merry-go-round of terror that never ends. It's is happy, then a conflict, then the blow up, then the calm time, then happy, conflict, a blow up, calm time--over and over again. My ex would be ok for about 2-3 months at most and it would start all over again. And it was horrible. I couldn't live like that anymore. Neverending circle.

You said you lost love/trust/respect for him--this happened with me too. Eventually all the love I had for him was stripped away and nothing was left but resentment. Once that resentment starts in, it is HARD to go back to how you saw them before. For me, it hasn't happened all the way, even after we split. 

If he is desperate, I say give it another shot but explain to him what you need from him to start even believing him. Tell him you aren't f-cking around and that talk is cheap. ACTIONS are what counts. 

Good luck.


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## hehasmyheart

I completely agree with Jellybeans. I think it IS a personality flaw. I also struggle with whether or not to stay in my marriage which has also been very emotionally abusive.

After he found out I'm having a (long distance) emotional affair, he promised to change everything. I do not trust him in so many ways. He's controlling and abusive. I don't trust him to know how to control himself & not throw tantrums like a little spoiled child. 

I went to therapy on my own. I tried to get him to go years earlier in the marriage, he refused. MC might be a good idea, even if just to get the issues out in the open.

I feel like he's putting on a nice little act, probably plotting something horrible against me all the while. In the past, he's cut up my clothing, cussed me out in front of my kids, hit me in front of my kids. I really wish he would just go away...for good.

I'm going to go back to therapy, so I can find out why any of this was acceptable to me. What is wrong with ME?

Sorry, had to vent. If you are separated, do yourself a favor and stay out. Work on yourself and eventually meet someone who will appreciate you and love you.

Also, if you have children, they will learn from your marriage and will repeat your mistakes.


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## Sanity

My father was emotionally and verbally abusive to my mom. On his deathbed he asked my mom for forgiveness and she forgave him but the damage was done. 

Years later I see how hurt she is and when we have a disagreement I see it. 

The point is abusive behavior is as destructive and can potentially cause permanent damage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl

I don't think it's a character flaw. I think it's because the person was abused and this is how they deal.

I am not flawed. I had issues. My abuse has stopped and my marriage is improving. I have discovered my triggers and can talk them down...I haven't had anxiety in a week!  

People can change-- they just have to WANT to change.

I mean, to call it a character flaw is just like saying no one has control of who they are. Does that mean the victim has a character flaw of being a doormat? I don't buy that. It's about deep rooted issues. If people aren't prepared to dig deep and figure out WHY they are the way they are...then they can't change. The abuse PROTECTS them from getting hurt. Sounds crazy but it's true. I chose to stop protecting myself from imaginary pain...it's a long story...I choose now to be open and have empathy for my husband and his situation and it really has helped me and my marriage tremendously.


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## Uptown

AngelsMom, I agree with ThatGirl that you are not describing a character flaw. I also agree with Jellybeans that your H likely has strong traits of a personality disorder (PD) and is unlikely to be willing to stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. Some PDs are easier to learn to manage than others. BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), for example, is the most difficult to control even though there are excellent treatment programs available. When a high functioning man has strong traits of BPD, the chances are slim that he will have sufficient self awareness and ego strength to be willing to confront his issues and learn how to manage them.

I mention BPD because you have mentioned three types of behavior that raise red flags. One is that your H is verbally abusive, which is one hallmark of people with strong BPD traits because they have enormous anger inside and cannot control their emotions. This is why most BPDers act out, throwing temper tantrums and hissy fits. And this is why their partners are always walking on eggshells to avoid triggering their anger.

The second red flag is your comment that his bad behavior is "cyclical." One hallmark of BPDers is the push-you-away and pull-you-back cycle, wherein they alternate between devaluing you and adoring you. Finally, a third red flag is your being confused to the point of having had a mental breakdown. Of the ten PDs, BPD is the only one that is notorious for making the _partners and spouses_ of the BPDer feel like she is going crazy or losing her mind. 

Yet, if your H really does have strong BPD traits, there are _several other traits_ you also should be seeing. I therefore suggest that you read more about these traits to see if most of them sound familiar. Of course, you will be unable to determine whether your H has such traits so severely as to meet 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full blown BPD. Only a professional can do that. You nonetheless can determine whether he has most of the red flags (i.e., strong traits) because, when you've lived with a man for 15 years, it is easy to spot frequent occurrences of verbal abuse, inappropriate anger, temper tantrums, and black-white thinking. For a quick overview of such traits on this forum, I suggest you take a look at my posts in Blacksmith's thread. They start at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-complicated-marriage-dynamic.html#post358403. Take care, AngelsMom.


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## Jellybeans

that_girl said:


> I don't think it's a character flaw. I think it's because the person was abused and this is how they deal.
> 
> I mean, to call it a character flaw is just like saying no one has control of who they are.


I disagree. 

IMO, it is a part of the abuser's personality and a "character" issue. Why? Because in order to change the behavior, they have to change something inherent about themself. All the time. Changing/stopping the abusive behavior for a month or two is all fine and good, the question is, can they do it over the long-term. Generally, no--they can't. It's why it's VERY rare an abuser, if ever, changes. 

You said "its like saying no one has control of who they are," which is ironic. Because the abuser *willfully *chooses to buse others. It's a very deliberate action. It's who they are. If they wanted to stop, they would. If they were truly committed to change, they'd seek out help and actually commit to change. Most never do. Because they don't see what they are doing as "wrong." It's par for the course. That's why one of the hallmark signs of an abuser is the blame game. They take zero responsibility in most cases. It's always everyone else's fault. 



that_girl said:


> I don't buy that. It's about deep rooted issues.
> 
> *The abuse PROTECTS them from getting hurt. Sounds crazy but it's true*.


It's well documented that abusers lash out because they are unhappy with themselves. With that said, at it's core, abusing someone else in order to "protect themself" and to make them "feel" better about themself is a very sickening concept to me. I can't fathom someone hurting someone else to feel better. 



that_girl said:


> Does that mean the victim has a character flaw of being a doormat?


The person the receiving end is *never * at fault for the abuse being shelled out to them. Nor are they "flawed" for being abused. Calling a victim of abuse a "doormat" is once again, blaming the victim. 
If someone chooses to stay with an abuser, that is their decision. But someone else's behavior/abuse is *not* their fault. That abuse lays solely on the shoulder of the one dishing it out.


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## that_girl

I still don't agree with you.

People are complex. You can't say ALL abusers are one way or the other..


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## Jellybeans

Abusers who do not see the abuse as wrong, seek out help on their own, and especially commit to stopping the abuse/changing their abusive ways/behavior will never change.

Repeating the same behavior will always give the same results.

I do agree with you that people are complex. Abusing is different then say, someone who gets upset and lashes out one day. It's a pattern.


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## Uptown

Jellybeans, I agree -- and ThatGirl apparently does also -- with nearly everything you've said. We agree, e.g., that BPDers and other abusers should be held fully accountable for their own actions. We also agree that identifying an abuser's harmful behavior as a pattern of BPD or other PD only provides an _explanation_ of that behavior, not an excuse. 

The only area of disagreement seems to be the issue of whether BPDers and other abusive PDers always have bad character. On this issue, I suspect the three of us are saying the same thing but using different terms. If you define a personality disorder (PD) to be (or include) a character flaw then, yes, we all agree that a BPDer must have a character flaw. But ThatGirl and I are defining "character flaw" to be something much different than a personality disorder. While I do not know exactly how ThatGirl would define it, I regard "character" as including the moral and ethical traits of an individual. 

This difference in definitions is important because, of the many BPDers I have known, not one of them had bad morals or ethics that I could see. Their problem was not a lack of ethics or morals but, rather, an inability to control their emotions and an overuse of black-white thinking -- resulting in a distorted perception of other people as being as "all good" or "all bad." Hence, despite their strong morals and ethics, they mistakenly perceived many people as "Hitler" and treated them accordingly. 

As far as I can tell, all the good ethics, morals, and religious training in the world will not make a dent in the abusive and vindictive behavior of BPDers because those traits cannot correct the underlying disorder. It therefore is common to see a high functioning BPDer treat business associates and strangers with kindness and generosity all day long -- and then go home that night to verbally abuse the very people who love them.

Granted, BPDers are still very much "at fault." Their fault is in making the choice -- every day -- not to acknowledge their issues, not to seek treatment for those issues, and not to accept responsibility for their hurtful actions. This does not imply a lack of morals, however. If that were the case, it would be easy to treat them by teaching them morality. Instead, they refuse to seek treatment because it is rare for a BPDer (especially those who are high functioning) to be willing to go through the painful process of learning how to manage their issues. I would be surprised if as many as 1 in 100 high functioning BPDers has sufficient ego strength and self awareness to stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. BPD is so pernicious because, by its very nature, it is usually invisible to the sufferer and makes her fearful of finding flaws in herself.

Finally, I agree -- and I suspect ThatGirl does too -- that there is a subset of BPDers and other PDers who do have character flaws such as bad morals and weak ethics. Yet, because that is not true of the many BPDers I've met, my experience is that most abusive behavior arises from traits of mental disorders such as BPD, not from character flaws such as bad morals and weak ethics.


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## leadsled

Being guilty myself of verbally, emotionally abusing my wife I can tell you that it can change. After many years of putting my wife and family through hell I finally realized what I was doing. I gave every excuse possible before I finally realized the problem was within. To me it is definitely a personality trait that will probably never completely go away. I wish it would but I would be lying to myself. My wife has notice the changes but it is too little too late. Our marriage of 11+ years is ending and I have no one to blame but myself. I had a beautiful wife and 3 amazing kids who I have let down by my actions. All I can hope for now is that she can finally be happy and I can learn from the terrible mistakes that I have made.


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## Chelly

Can they change?

Sure. Anyone can change. Just be sure you don't mistake a desperate attempt to win you back for real change.

REAL change comes from intensive, individual therapy, and from a desire to heal old wounds and become a better person-- not from a desperate need to win you back. 

Is it fair of them to expect you to "help" them to change?
No. This is your life. You're not someone else's life-fixer.

When I left my verbally abusive husband the first time, he told me, "I can change-- I just need you to HELP me." Foolish me, I listened, and wasted another two years of my life.


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## nicole2011

Im in that same situation now. We are going to counselling now. I have told him before that im not happy and it will be fixed for a few months and then goes back to the old person. Well finally this last time he showed out, I was ready to leave. Im wondering if it's too late to fix it now.


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## 3littleangelsmom

Thanks everyone for taking the time to offer your thoughts!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Krissteene

I am in a verbally abusive relationship. Didnt start out this way, although he was always very obessive/protective. I was flattered back then. Now married 13yrs together a total of 17 he is very mean and spiteful, constantly yelling at me, up and down like a yo-yo. I walk on eggshells. Im starting to resent him. He takes off to be with his friends and the times hes not, and with me he is miserable. He claims to love me but his actions show differently. He acts like a child in so many ways i cannot begin to write them i will be here forever. We have no kids, just a dog and two cats, own a condo. I asked him to leave he refused to go. Have crap for money and are upside in our mortgage due to the economy, so im stuck as well. Im very lonely. Our marriage sucks. YES we went to two counselors, we had to go to a man because he didnt like the woman, felt like we were ganging up on him! He didnt get nothing out of them, mind you.. ANY SUGGESTIONS?


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## southernmagnolia

3littleangelsmom said:


> I am so confused. I have been in what I am just now coming to grips with was a 15 year marriage of emotional and verbal abuse.
> 
> *15 years is a long time, I'm so sorry.*
> 
> I had a breakdown and decided to leave temporarily until I could get my head above water and get "healthy".
> 
> *It's safe to assume that his behavior toward you had a big hand in your breakdown, right? *
> My husband is VERY deperate to save the marriage. He says he will change and do whatever it takes, but I have very little trust in him.
> *He doesn't deserve your trust, why would he?
> *
> Can they change or is it part of their personality? I feel like I have been here before many times and told him things that were wrong in our relationship, he would change it for a couple weeks and then become complacent and fall back.
> *He has ALREADY shown you time and time again that he can't/won't change, why would it be different this time? It's a fact that most abusers do not change, research backs that up but you probably already know this.*
> 
> It has been very cyclical. I want out SO badly, but am afraid not to give him every opportunity to make it right, but I don't love, respect, or trust him.
> *You already know that you want out and you said that you don't love, respect or trust him, then you should GO. *
> I want to be able to say I did everything possible so I can leave without guilt.
> *WHY, do you feel you own him anything??? Why, why? 15 years is more than enough and you've said you've lost any good feelings for him. And another thing, you saying that you want to leave without guilt, frankly pisses me off and it should you. Why in the world should you feel guilty, you are NOT the abuser. *
> 
> Can they change or is it just ingrained? Will counseling help or will be going around in circles? HELP!!


Please *just go*, don't fall for the it will be different this time. 15 years is more than long enough. You owe him nothing, however you owe yourself dignity and self respect by saying enough is enough.


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## southernmagnolia

Krissteene said:


> I am in a verbally abusive relationship. Didnt start out this way, although he was always very obessive/protective. I was flattered back then. Now married 13yrs together a total of 17 he is very mean and spiteful, constantly yelling at me, up and down like a yo-yo. I walk on eggshells. Im starting to resent him. He takes off to be with his friends and the times hes not, and with me he is miserable. He claims to love me but his actions show differently. He acts like a child in so many ways i cannot begin to write them i will be here forever. We have no kids, just a dog and two cats, own a condo. I asked him to leave he refused to go. Have crap for money and are upside in our mortgage due to the economy, so im stuck as well. Im very lonely. Our marriage sucks. YES we went to two counselors, we had to go to a man because he didnt like the woman, felt like we were ganging up on him! He didnt get nothing out of them, mind you.. ANY SUGGESTIONS?


Yes I have a suggestion, where there is a will there is a way to get out and you are only as trapped as you allow yourself to be. Get some help by reaching out to an abuse hotline or some local help. You need some help in getting your power back and to get on the road of feeling that you can get out.


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## Uptown

Krissteene, as I mentioned to AngelsMom above, the behavior you describe -- verbally abusive, very controlling, jealous, vindictive, and child like -- are classic traits of BPD. I therefore suggest that you read about the nine BPD traits to see if it sounds like your H has most of them at a moderate to strong level. You will not be able to determine whether he has such traits so severely so as to satisfy all of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD. Only professionals can do that. Yet, spotting the red flags is not difficult when you know which traits are on the list. There is nothing subtle about excessive verbal abuse, constant blaming, and other strong BPD traits.


Krissteene said:


> He acts like a child in so many ways i cannot begin to write them i will be here forever.


Childlike, immature behavior is a hallmark of strong BPD traits because a BPDer's emotional development is frozen at about age four. The result is that a BPDer's ego defenses is limited to the primitive emotional defenses we all use as children. These include projection ("You are the sick one"), denial ("Sis did it"), and black-white thinking (categorizing everyone as "all good" or "all bad" -- and recategorizing someone from one polar extreme to the other based solely on an idle comment or minor infraction). If your H does excessive B-W thinking he will frequently use the terms "always" and "never" to describe your behavior (i.e., "you never fix me a good mean").


> he is very mean and spiteful, constantly yelling at me, up and down like a yo-yo.


Meanness and vindictiveness also are hallmarks of strong BPD traits. Significantly, BPDers are not consistently _mean_ people. Rather, they are _unstable _people who use B-W thinking, wherein they can be loving and caring for days and, then in ten seconds, can flip to perceiving you to be the enemy. The result is a repeated push-you-away and pull-you-back cycle seems to be what you are describing as being "up and down like a yo-yo."


> I am in a verbally abusive relationship.


Verbal abuse is another hallmark of typical BPDer behavior. The traits distort the person's perception of your intentions and motivations, resulting in him perceiving of you to be "all black" at times. And, because a BPDer lacks impulse control, he does not wait until he has time to cool down before taking action or speaking.


> Didnt start out this way, although he was always very obessive/protective.


A love relationship with an unstable person usually begins with them idealizing and idolizing you -- falling "in love" within just a few weeks. Typically, the sex is the most passionate and intense experience of your lifetime. A BPDer will place you high on a pedestal and -- until his infatuation starts evaporating 3 to 6 months later -- he will believe you belong on that pedestal. Moreover, because a BPDer will mirror all the best aspects of your personality, you will be convinced you have met your "soul mate."


> I walk on eggshells.


This is why _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ is the name of the #1 best-selling BPD book that is targeted spouses like you.


> I asked him to leave he refused to go.


This is why _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me_ is the name of the _second-best_-selling BPD book that is targeted to spouses like you. Although BPDers are unhappy living with their spouses, they won't leave because they desperately want someone around to serve as an "emotional anchor" that will ground and center their personalities. This is needed because BPDers have such a fragile, weak self image that they often don't know how they should be behaving -- or even what they should be wanting.


> He takes off to be with his friends and the times hes not, and with me he is miserable.


High functioning BPDers can be caring and loving and fun all day long around casual friends and business associates. Those folks pose no threat whatsoever to a BPDer's two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. This is why "Mr. Wonderful" will be kind and outgoing all day long and then go home to abuse the very people who love him.


> YES we went to two counselors.... He didnt get nothing out of them.


If your H actually has strong BPD traits, marriage counseling likely will be useless because his issues run far deeper than a lack of communication problems. What would be needed, instead, is years of therapy from a clinical psychologist. And there are excellent treatment programs available. But, sadly, it is rare for a high functioning BPDer to be willing to stay in such therapy long enough to make a difference.


> ANY SUGGESTIONS?


Krissteene, if this discussion rings a bell, I suggest you read my posts in Blacksmith's thread. They start at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-complicated-marriage-dynamic.html#post358403. If that discussion of BPD traits sounds familiar and you want to read more, I would be glad to suggest online resources and a BPD website where you can get support from others who are living with BPDers. 

Finally, I caution that an essential feature of strong BPD traits is instability. This means that, if your H has only exhibited these traits in the last half of your marriage, you cannot be seeing a strong pattern of them. Strong BPD traits do not lie hidden for years at a time. Hence, you would have seen red flags appearing right after the infatuation period ended. Take care, Krissteene.


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## southernmagnolia

While information on bpd or whatever disorder a person might have is useful and can explain why a person behaves as they do, it still remains that abusive and controlling behavior should be a deal-breaker and should not be tolerated irregardless of the disorder. To me that is the bottom line.


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## Uptown

southernmagnolia said:


> abusive and controlling behavior should be a deal-breaker and should not be tolerated irregardless of the disorder. To me that is the bottom ine.


Absolutely. I agree, SM. Indeed, that is exactly what most women do when the abuse and controlling behavior start at the end of the honeymoon period. They may be willing to spend up to an additional 12 months trying to restore the idyllic conditions of the honeymoon. Then they walk out because they have strong personal boundaries and they enforce those boundaries.

That is not the case here, however. Because Krissteene has been tolerating controlling and obsessive behavior for nearly 17 years, she almost certainly is an excessive caregiver (i.e., a "codependent" with low personal boundaries) like I am. Caregivers like us remain trapped in such toxic relationships because our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the people we already are). 

That is, we mistake "being needed" for "being loved." Indeed, we have difficulty realizing that someone loves us if they don't desperately need us at the same time. Moreover, we are mistakenly convinced that, if we can only figure out what we are doing wrong, we can "fix" the spouse or somehow restore the honeymoon conditions -- an impossible task.

If Krissteene is like the hundreds of other codependents I've communicated with, she likely knew more than ten years ago that she should walk away from her abusive H but she never has been willing to let go. To caregivers like us, the notion of walking away from a sick loved one is ANATHEMA. It goes against our family values, our sense of purpose, our religion -- indeed, against every fiber of our being. We therefore remain stuck in toxic marriages for years largely due to our crushing feeling of guilt and sense of obligation. 

For these reasons, telling us to kick our spouse to the curb and leave does no good. IME, the only thing that frees us from the guilt is to understand the role we play in the toxic relationship. And, because we are convinced we are only trying to help the spouse, we cannot see our role clearly until we first recognize that our spouse is an emotionally disturbed individual who cannot be fixed or helped. This, then, is why I am encouraging Krissteene to read about her H's dysfunctional behavior -- so she can eventually see, by subtraction, the role she has played. As the stable person in the marriage, she has been the glue holding it together.


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## Krissteene

Wow-Thanks for all the great feedback. Any helpful links would be appreciated. I also think i may check out the books you recommended "Uptown" .. its a start. Not sure what to do, one day im convinced im leaving then the next i think its silly and to just stay. I figure that all men are idiots and i will only go through the same or similiar with another. pretty warped right? urgh.


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## Jellybeans

southernmagnolia said:


> *abusive and controlling behavior should be a deal-breaker and should not be tolerated *


I agree 100%. Abusers get worse over time. Almost always. 

Kris--google "emotional and verbal abuse." A myriad of links will pop up. I don't agree that all abusers have BPD. Some are just straight up abusive.

Get the book_ "Why does he do that?"_ by Lundy Bancroft. It will seriously run a shiver down your spine as you're reading it. You will learn that the abuse is all VERY calculated (sickening). You can pick it up at the library. It's about abusive men.


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## Uptown

Jellybeans said:


> I don't agree that all abusers have BPD.


I agree with you Jellybeans. Abusive behavior also can be caused, e.g., by Narcissistic PD, Antisocial PD, and Intermittent Explosive Disorder -- and, more rarely, by a brain injury or certain drugs. That's why I encouraged AngelsMom and Krissteene to read about the nine BPD traits and see if most of the red flags are present at a strong and persistent level. Abusiveness, by itself, does NOT imply a person is exhibiting a pattern of strong BPD traits.


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## Jellybeans

I know. But you are always posting about BPD anytime someone mentions the word "abuse." Nearly every time.


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## Hilary Henderson

3littleangelsmom, I hear that you don't trust him, love him, or respect him, and you want out. The only thing REALLY keeping you there is guilt & obligation. You want to know that you did everything you could.

I understand this; I felt the same way. Guilt and obligation kept me in a similar relationship for way too long.

Here is what I had to realize in order to give myself permission to leave. 

What have you _already _done to save your marriage? What have you _already _given? How much of your heart, soul, and tears have you given this man _already_? 

What about _him_? How much has he given? How hard has he tried - really? Have his efforts matched yours? Has his emotional investment been equal to yours? Or has he only paid lip service (and a coupla weeks of minimal effort at a time) to making it work?

If he hasn't been trying as hard as you have, why should you continue to work SO hard - even beyond the point of breakdown - to save something that evidently isn't REALLY that important to HIM?

Why does he get "every opportunity" to keep hurting you? He's had 15 years. How about if you got "every opportunity" to start over and be happy? How would that be for a change?

You're not obligated to give anymore. You get to walk away. You're not a bad person if you say, "I have had enough." 

You're not a bad person if you protect and defend yourself from further harm. Which is exactly what you'd be doing if you left - protecting and defending yourself from further harm.

It's like he's holding your hand to a hot stove, just because he feels like it. You get to pull your hand away and stop being burned, and never subject yourself to this person again. Allowing him to continue to hurt you is not necessary to prove that you love him or that you're a good person or that you're strong or have character. Continuing to suffer proves nothing except your willingness to suffer. And _you don't have to suffer anymore._

I was afraid that my ex was just sick in some way. How could I ethically leave someone for being sick? If he had been paralyzed in a car accident, I couldn't leave. Right? If he had cancer when we got married and we didn't find out until later, I couldn't leave. Right?

The thing is, abuse is almost always a CHOICE on the part of the abuser. It's almost never a sickness. It's a choice. He's doing this to you so that he can get what he wants. He feels _entitled _to hurt you, so that he can control you, or get something he wants, or just lash out and relieve some stress and make himself feel better for a while. 

It's extremely difficult for someone to stop feeling and acting entitled. They have to learn to feel conscience and empathy and discover that they aren't the center of the universe after all. It's tough, thankless work and most people will not do it. They might start, they might try for a while, but they'll revert to their old ways, because it's just too difficult and painful to start feeling empathy and stop getting what you want all the time. 

What if he does have BPD? Then here's the thing. If he IS "sick" - that is, if he does have a diagnosable personality disorder or other mental illness - then he still has to go in for therapy and stick with it for a long time in order to get well. Until he does this, he's not safe for you. It would be like your senile elderly mother who lives with you has started punching and kicking you. You can't take care of her anymore - it's not safe. You have to get her into some other kind of help and back off until it's safe to interact again. 

If your husband is willing to go into therapy (alone, for himself) and consider taking medication if necessary, then you have the OPTION of staying (and by "stay," I mean separate from him so that you can protect yourself until the therapy and drugs have really had a profound effect, but hold off on divorce). But most people with a PD do not ever go into therapy or take medication, or don't stick with it. It is too painful and difficult and threatening.

But, as I said, even if he did go into treatment, that only gives you the OPTION of staying. You still don't have to! 

Marriages end every day JUST because one person no longer loves, respects, and trusts the other. On those grounds ALONE, you get to leave! You don't have to stay with someone you don't love, respect, or trust!

Marriage counseling can be quite harmful in these cases. Sometimes the marriage counselor does not see the abuse. They will then treat both of you as if you were both to blame for the problems. This will make him feel MORE entitled and make you feel truly awful, and it's more likely that you'll stay for far longer than you should.

Please protect and defend yourself and choose the life you really want to have. You don't have to suffer anymore.

Good luck and feel free to message me privately. I am a life coach who specializes in relationships.


----------



## Uptown

Jellybeans said:


> You are always posting about BPD anytime someone mentions the word "abuse." Nearly every time.


Jellybeans, the vast majority of folks who find themselves in an abusive relationship walk out without a year. The have strong personal boundaries and thus simply leave. 

In contrast, the members who come here complaining about being verbally abused for several years usually are codependent caregivers like me. The notion of walking out on a sick loved one is anathema to such people. Telling them "You are being abused" does not help because they already know that. They still are unable to leave because they are trapped by a strong sense of guilt and obligation. What helps free them, then, is to learn why their partner is behaving that way. Once they understand that, they can see that they cannot fix the partner and they are harming him by remaining in the relationship, enabling him to avoid confronting his issues.

BPD traits are, by far, the most common cause of such abusive behavior if the abuse has persisted over time in the absence of a drug problem. Even when there is a drug problem, it usually is the result of "self medicating" for an underlying emotional disorder. Recent studies have shown the incidence of BPD traits (at the diagnostic level) to be five and six times the incidence of the several other mental disorders resulting in abusive behavior. I therefore believe that it is prudent for anyone in a very abusive relationship to read about BPD traits to see if the red flags sound familiar. Although BPD is not the only cause of abusive behavior, it is the best place to start reading.


----------



## Jellybeans

Right--but not all abusers suffer from BPD. Some are just that... abusers.

And with that said, can you list the 9 traits of BPD? I am curious since you're always talking about them.


----------



## Uptown

Hilary Henderson said:


> Marriage counseling can be quite harmful in these cases.


Hilary, I agree with everything in your post. Although BPD may _explain_ a person's abusive behavior, it certainly does not_ excuse_ it. BPDers should be held fully accountable for their own actions. Otherwise, they have no chance of being forced to confront their issues and learning how to control them. I especially agree with your warning about MC. IME, it can be harmful for the reason you give. More likely, however, it will simply be useless when the partner is a BPDer because his problems go far beyond a lack of communication skills. Until the underlying issues are dealt with, MC may result in the BPDer only becoming better skilled at controlling his spouse.


----------



## Uptown

Jellybeans said:


> Can you list the 9 traits of BPD? I am curious since you're always talking about them.


Jellybeans, the nine traits specified by the current diagnostic manual (DSM-IV) are shown at Borderline Personality Disorder. The proposed language for the new diagnostic manual (DSM5, to be released in May 2013) is shown at http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevision/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=17.


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## Jellybeans

Thanks for link.


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## pidge70

Gads....I fit all 9. The only thing I don't have a problem with is being alone. Then again, I was diagnosed BPD years ago. 

To the OP....I was horribly emotionally/verbally and on rare occasions physically abusive to my SO. I hit rock bottom last year and finally sought help. Abusers CAN change. I wish you the best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3littleangelsmom

Hilary Henderson said:


> 3littleangelsmom, I hear that you don't trust him, love him, or respect him, and you want out. The only thing REALLY keeping you there is guilt & obligation. You want to know that you did everything you could.
> 
> I understand this; I felt the same way. Guilt and obligation kept me in a similar relationship for 13 years.
> 
> Here is what I had to realize in order to give myself permission to leave.
> 
> What have you _already _done to save your marriage? What have you _already _given? How much of your heart, soul, and tears have you given this man _already_?
> 
> What about _him_? How much has he given? How hard has he tried - really? Have his efforts matched yours? Has his emotional investment been equal to yours? Or has he only paid lip service (and a coupla weeks of minimal effort at a time) to making it work?
> 
> If he hasn't been trying as hard as you have, why should you continue to work SO hard - even beyond the point of breakdown - to save something that evidently isn't REALLY that important to HIM?
> 
> Why does he get "every opportunity" to keep hurting you? He's had 15 years. How about if you got "every opportunity" to start over and be happy? How would that be for a change?
> 
> You're not obligated to give anymore. You get to walk away. You're not a bad person if you say, "I have had enough."
> 
> You're not a bad person if you protect and defend yourself from further harm. Which is exactly what you'd be doing if you left - protecting and defending yourself from further harm.
> 
> It's like he's holding your hand to a hot stove, just because he feels like it. You get to pull your hand away and stop being burned, and never subject yourself to this person again. Allowing him to continue to hurt you is not necessary to prove that you love him or that you're a good person or that you're strong or have character. Continuing to suffer proves nothing except your willingness to suffer. And _you don't have to suffer anymore._
> 
> I was afraid that my ex was just sick in some way. How could I ethically leave someone for being sick? If he had been paralyzed in a car accident, I couldn't leave. Right? If he had cancer when we got married and we didn't find out until later, I couldn't leave. Right?
> 
> The thing is, abuse is almost always a CHOICE on the part of the abuser. It's almost never a sickness. It's a choice. He's doing this to you so that he can get what he wants. He feels _entitled _to hurt you, so that he can control you, or get something he wants, or just lash out and relieve some stress and make himself feel better for a while.
> 
> It's extremely difficult for someone to stop feeling and acting entitled. They have to learn to feel conscience and empathy and discover that they aren't the center of the universe after all. It's tough, thankless work and most people will not do it. They might start, they might try for a while, but they'll revert to their old ways, because it's just too difficult and painful to start feeling empathy and stop getting what you want all the time.
> 
> What if he does have BPD? Then here's the thing. If he IS "sick" - that is, if he does have a diagnosable personality disorder or other mental illness - then he still has to go in for therapy and stick with it for a long time in order to get well. Until he does this, he's not safe for you. It would be like your senile elderly mother who lives with you has started punching and kicking you. You can't take care of her anymore - it's not safe. You have to get her into some other kind of help and back off until it's safe to interact again.
> 
> If your husband is willing to go into therapy (alone, for himself) and consider taking medication if necessary, then you have the OPTION of staying (and by "stay," I mean separate from him so that you can protect yourself until the therapy and drugs have really had a profound effect, but hold off on divorce). But most people with a PD do not ever go into therapy or take medication, or don't stick with it. It is too painful and difficult and threatening.
> 
> But, as I said, even if he did go into treatment, that only gives you the OPTION of staying. You still don't have to!
> 
> Marriages end every day JUST because one person no longer loves, respects, and trusts the other. On those grounds ALONE, you get to leave! You don't have to stay with someone you don't love, respect, or trust!
> 
> Marriage counseling can be quite harmful in these cases. Sometimes the marriage counselor does not see the abuse. They will then treat both of you as if you were both to blame for the problems. This will make him feel MORE entitled and make you feel truly awful, and it's more likely that you'll stay for far longer than you should.
> 
> Please protect and defend yourself and choose the life you really want to have. You don't have to suffer anymore.
> 
> Good luck and feel free to message me privately. I am a life coach who specializes in relationships.


Thank you so much for you words! I have told him I am leaving. He is still texting and emailing me daily.... "i am sorry" I can change, I see my issues now... give us time." 
I am TIRED!


----------



## Hilary Henderson

3littleangelsmom said:


> Thank you so much for you words! I have told him I am leaving. He is still texting and emailing me daily.... "i am sorry" I can change, I see my issues now... give us time."
> I am TIRED!


Woo-hoo! Good for you, telling him you're leaving!!!!

Unfortunately, he probably won't leave you alone for a long time. Unless you're very lucky and he goes away quietly, actually escaping an abuser is an endurance game. You just have to outlast him. Eventually he will move on to a new target. Though he may still try you again periodically as the years go by, to see if you've softened. So, it's a long-term endurance game. I wish it were otherwise.

Here are a few suggestions for winning the endurance game:

Read all of his messages as actually meaning, "I'll SAY just about anything to get you to stay, because words are CHEAP and they usually work like a charm. Minimum effort, maximum payoff. Is it working yet?"

He will try to make you feel guilty. Making you feel guilty and telling you that it's all your fault has probably worked very well for him in the past. I suggest writing up a list, and putting it in your journal or somewhere private, of all of the reasons you have to leave him. "He screamed at me constantly," "He told me I was stupid and worthless," "I always felt like I was walking on eggshells," "I had lost all respect for him," "I felt like I was going insane," etc., etc. My own list had over 100 reasons to leave. Refer to that list whenever the second thoughts kick in. (I also did a list of reasons to stay... that list had maybe 8 things on it, and none of them very compelling. That was useful for perspective, too.)

Also, whenever I had second thoughts and self-doubt, I'd tell myself, "You CAN call him if you want. Right NOW, you can call him and tell him you want him back. Do you want to do that?" I'd ask myself straight out and honestly. And every time, I'd realize, "NO WAY do I want to go back." And the thoughts would pass.

If you have a close friend or family member who "never liked" your husband or is definitely going to be on your side, make an agreement that you can call him/her anytime you feel tempted to go back. I had someone like this in my court and it was soooo helpful to get that "sanity check" whenever I was veering off into "how can I do this to him?" territory.


----------



## turnera

3littleangelsmom said:


> Thank you so much for you words! I have told him I am leaving. He is still texting and emailing me daily.... "i am sorry" I can change, I see my issues now... give us time."
> I am TIRED!


 Good for you. The ONLY way he CAN change is if you leave him and give him a REASON to. 

Promise us you will NOT let him back into your life until he has gone at least 6 months of weekly therapy. If not longer. It will take that long before he will ever get deep enough to 'get it' and want to change, let alone do the hard work to really change.


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## katc

I have an emotional and verbally abusive husband. He has been to counselling numerous times.

He won't change, because he doesn't think that there is anything wrong.

He doesn't think that there was anything wrong with calling his daughter a f'ing retard in front of my entire family. He doesn't think there was anything wrong with scratching the side of my brand new vehicle with the handle of the lawn mower - after all "I" parked it too close to the edge of the driveway.

I want out, but can't financially afford to go. 

Will he change - never. Will my feelings for him change - never. ever.


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## southernmagnolia

Jellybeans said:


> I know. But you are always posting about BPD anytime someone mentions the word "abuse." Nearly every time.


I noticed that too. The thing that is worrying is that it could be dangerous to the poster who is being abused as she/he could use this as a excuse for the behavior. Understanding why someone abuses does NOTHING to stop it. However to educate yourself as to why you tolerate it is a win/win and can help break the cycle. 

In the end, it doesn't matter why someone is doing the abusing, personality disorder or not, it's still ABUSE and the victim needs to get OUT.


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## southernmagnolia

katc said:


> I have an emotional and verbally abusive husband. He has been to counselling numerous times.
> 
> He won't change, because he doesn't think that there is anything wrong.
> 
> He doesn't think that there was anything wrong with calling his daughter a f'ing retard in front of my entire family. He doesn't think there was anything wrong with scratching the side of my brand new vehicle with the handle of the lawn mower - after all "I" parked it too close to the edge of the driveway.
> 
> I want out, but can't financially afford to go.
> 
> Will he change - never. Will my feelings for him change - never. ever.


Ever called a hotline katc? Ever confided in a family member or a friend? 

Do you work? Do you have children? 

Maybe you should start a new thread so you can get specific support just for yourself.


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## turnera

katc said:


> I want out, but can't financially afford to go.


What are you doing to change that?


----------



## Uptown

southernmagnolia said:


> The thing that is worrying is that it could be dangerous to the poster who is being abused as she/he could use this as a excuse for the behavior.


As I said, "Although BPD may _explain_ a person's abusive behavior, it certainly does not_ excuse_ it." I am confident that AngelsMom is sufficiently intelligent to understand this simple concept. What I find "worrisome" is the notion that acquiring knowledge -- in particular, trying to better understand the dynamics of a 17 year relationship -- is dangerous.


> Understanding why someone abuses does NOTHING to stop it.


Nobody here has claimed that it would. There is nothing that AngelsMom can do to control or fix her H. The objective -- for all the posters on this thread -- is to help her STAY AWAY from him, not change him.


> However to educate yourself as to why you tolerate it is a win/win and can help break the cycle.


As I explained above, most folks who have been living with abuse for many years are strongly codependent. Yet, because codependents are convinced they are "only trying to help the sick loved one," they usually are unable to see how dysfunctional their behavior is until they first understand that it is impossible for them to fix or help their spouses. Certainly, this was the case with me. And I have seen it to be the case with hundreds of others trapped in a toxic, abusive relationship. Hence, understanding the relationship dynamic frees them from the guilt and shame that are preventing them from leaving. In this case, the OP has already left and she fears her guilt will cause her to accept the H back.


> In the end, it doesn't matter why someone is doing the abusing, personality disorder or not, it's still ABUSE and the victim needs to get OUT.


You have already stated this several times and everybody in the thread has repeatedly agreed. Indeed, the OP agreed in her very first post. She said she had already left her H because of the behavior she ALREADY KNEW was abusive. The problem, then, is that she was afraid her overpowering guilt might lead her to accept him back. She therefore is asking us to help her with that guilt. 

Granted, telling an OP "Your H's abusive behavior is abusive" twenty times can be very helpful to those OPs coming here for simple validation of what they have already decided to do. For those who have been tolerating abuse for 17 years, however, they are usually seeking knowledge -- not just a pat on the back. The beauty of this forum is that many members with diverse experiences and backgrounds can offer a variety of suggestions. The OP then has the opportunity to pick and choose what seems to work best for her at this point in her life.


----------



## southernmagnolia

Uptown said:


> As I said, "Although BPD may _explain_ a person's abusive behavior, it certainly does not_ excuse_ it." I am confident that AngelsMom is sufficiently intelligent to understand this simple concept. What I find "worrisome" is the notion that acquiring knowledge -- in particular, trying to better understand the dynamics of a 17 year relationship -- is dangerous.Nobody here has claimed that it would. There is nothing that AngelsMom can do to control or fix her H. The objective -- for all the posters on this thread -- is to help her STAY AWAY from him, not change him. As I explained above, most folks who have been living with abuse for many years are strongly codependent. Yet, because codependents are convinced they are "only trying to help the sick loved one," they usually are unable to see how dysfunctional their behavior is until they first understand that it is impossible for them to fix or help their spouses. Certainly, this was the case with me. And I have seen it to be the case with hundreds of others trapped in a toxic, abusive relationship. Hence, understanding the relationship dynamic frees them from the guilt and shame that are preventing them from leaving. In this case, the OP has already left and she fears her guilt will cause her to accept the H back.You have already stated this several times and everybody in the thread has repeatedly agreed. Indeed, the OP agreed in her very first post. She said she had already left her H because of the behavior she ALREADY KNEW was abusive. The problem, then, is that she was afraid her overpowering guilt might lead her to accept him back. She therefore is asking us to help her with that guilt.
> 
> Granted, telling an OP "Your H's abusive behavior is abusive" twenty times can be very helpful to those OPs coming here for simple validation of what they have already decided to do. For those who have been tolerating abuse for 17 years, however, they are usually seeking knowledge -- not just a pat on the back. The beauty of this forum is that many members with diverse experiences and backgrounds can offer a variety of suggestions. The OP then has the opportunity to pick and choose what seems to work best for her at this point in her life.


 

Granted you made some good points about codependency, etc. but gouging at me in a long post is not helpful to me, however the info might be helpful to the op.  

And I didn't say it 20 times.

I stand by my post.


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## Ten_year_hubby

Uptown said:


> For those who have been tolerating abuse for 17 years, however, they are usually seeking knowledge -- not just a pat on the back. The beauty of this forum is that many members with diverse experiences and backgrounds can offer a variety of suggestions. The OP then has the opportunity to pick and choose what seems to work best for her at this point in her life.


Shout out Uptown. After 10+ years of our abusive marriage my wife managed to escalate her abuse to its zenith by filing and having me served with divorce papers. I went on vacation the next day with the kids for a week and when I returned I made a reasonable counteroffer and told her she could go. A couple hours later she wants to make up. What is going on here? She never really wanted to leave in the first place, she just wanted to use the family law system to beat me with a bigger stick to get her way over something she had almost completely forgotten what it was. Pretty sick. So do I just throw her out? No way. I proceed to treat her far nicer than anyone would deserve. She agrees to go to counseling and we went yesterday where we both agreed to treat each other respectfully. She is giving it a shot, even if it has only been one day. Last night she committed to pray with me on a daily basis and we would read God's word together for 10 or 15 minutes. Are we out of the woods? No. Do we have a light and a compass? Yes. I'm optimistic and my heart is full of joy. Everyone hope for the best. I certainly believe abusive people can change and we have one day and counting


----------



## turnera

Ten year, I hope you're reading everything you can get your hands on. You need to be 'smarter' than her so that when things come up, you know the correct response to end the abuse.


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## Ten_year_hubby

Thanks turnera, while I feel that I'm probably too smart by half, sometimes I have trouble bridging the gap between knowing and doing. If you can share the correct response, I'm all ears. I just don't believe that you throw someone away because they have problems even if their problems are causing you grief and I'm willing to live out my beliefs


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## justabovewater

Leadsled, you speak for me as well, but I am the wife who abused the husband. He put up with it for 28 years (23 married) and finally had had enough. Just last night in my support group we were talking about forgiving those that have wronged us, specifically the spouses who did the leaving. I have to forgive myself for the way I treated my husband and two kids. I've dealt with depression my whole life and am just recently learning that it played a major role in how I treated others even though I didn't notice it. I knew I felt unhappy all the time, but chalked it up to "life". With the help of some new meds, leaning on God and just trying to be more aware of how I act, I believe I can and will change. I have to be more empathic and remember how I felt when I was in an emotionally abusive relationship years ago. People can definitely change, but as others have stated, they have to want to.


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## turnera

I'm not telling you to leave if you don't want to. Just know how to deal with the outbursts, manipulation, etc. There's no stock response, but if you read up on abuse, you'll start to understand what they're really trying to do when they do ABC, and you'll know that XYZ is the way to (1) call them out on it and (2) provide a response that deflates the issue so you can move forward.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Understanding the abuser is easy enough, they want what they want, simple enough. Calling them out on this has not shown itself to be productive. The real difficulty is when they use their will to continue to escalating (the opposite of deflating) the issue until they get their way, there is not always another response that will stop the escalation (deflate the issue). 

One of the many ways this works to the abuser's advantage is that the target will often agree with whatever the abuser wants in order to avoid the future pain from the certain escalation that will result from doing anything else (like trying to compromise or get consensus). This is the way my wife's family of origin works. Everyone demands what they want and backs up their demand with the threat of escalating verbal abuse. The person who feels the most emotionally weak, ie, unable to stomach the back and forth verbal abuse, acquiesces and the other gets what they want. Funny how they all seem to have digestive problems and eating disorders


----------



## Jellybeans

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Calling them out on this has not shown itself to be productive.


I think calling out the bad behavior is very productive for showing them that they are out of line.

But as far as it being productive to "change" their behavior--no way. An abuser won't look inward unless he/she realizes they are doing wrong. And let's face it--most of them think they are perfect and their behavior is fine.


----------



## turnera

And...the proper NEXT step is to remove yourself from their vicinity so that they are left without anyone to abuse.

It's been suggested that, the first time they do ABC, you calmly and politely say 'that's not acceptable, please stop.' If they do it again, you say 'if you don't stop, I will leave.' If they do it again, you leave the room. Again, you leave the house for 20 minutes. Again, you leave the house for an hour. Again, you leave the house overnight. Again, you leave the house for a week. Again, for a month. Again, you file divorce papers. You lay out a clear pattern of YOUR BOUNDARIES/ENFORCEMENT if they choose to continue. Then it's their choice to stop or lose you.


----------



## Jellybeans

turnera said:


> And...the proper NEXT step is to remove yourself from their vicinity so that they are left without anyone to abuse.
> 
> It's been suggested that, the first time they do ABC, you calmly and politely say 'that's not acceptable, please stop.' If they do it again, you say 'if you don't stop, I will leave.' If they do it again, you leave the room. Again, you leave the house for 20 minutes. Again, you leave the house for an hour. Again, you leave the house overnight. Again, you leave the house for a week. Again, for a month. Again, you file divorce papers. You lay out a clear pattern of YOUR BOUNDARIES/ENFORCEMENT if they choose to continue. Then it's their choice to stop or lose you.


Exactly!


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Jellybeans said:


> I think calling out the bad behavior is very productive for showing them that they are out of line.
> 
> But as far as it being productive to "change" their behavior--no way. An abuser won't look inward unless he/she realizes they are doing wrong. And let's face it--most of them think they are perfect and their behavior is fine.


With all due respect, I just haven't seen in theory or in practice how someone who thinks they are completely justified in their behavior sees or is shown that they are out of line by anything I say


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

turnera said:


> And...the proper NEXT step is to remove yourself from their vicinity so that they are left without anyone to abuse.
> 
> It's been suggested that, the first time they do ABC, you calmly and politely say 'that's not acceptable, please stop.' If they do it again, you say 'if you don't stop, I will leave.' If they do it again, you leave the room. Again, you leave the house for 20 minutes. Again, you leave the house for an hour. Again, you leave the house overnight. Again, you leave the house for a week. Again, for a month. Again, you file divorce papers. You lay out a clear pattern of YOUR BOUNDARIES/ENFORCEMENT if they choose to continue. Then it's their choice to stop or lose you.


All well and good if you're looking to be single again and have your kids shuttled between estranged parents. I've given a lot of consideration to this but challenging my wife to change or be left is just not on the table for me. I nicely suggested that I could leave for a while a couple days ago and she didn't want it so I'm not doing it. Threatening to leave or threatening to divorce is abusive in itself and is outside any kind of rules for fair fighting. I don't want to validate it by being the example and doing it myself. The fact that one spouse doesn't have enough self control to fight fair doesn't justify the other spouse willfully doing the same. I personally don't think this strategy has a better than 50 percent chance of producing the desired result.


----------



## Jellybeans

Ten_year_hubby said:


> With all due respect, I just haven't seen in theory or in practice how someone who thinks they are completely justified in their behavior sees or is shown that they are out of line by anything I say


And that is why I said it's not done so the abuser will CHANGE. It's done so you can call them out on their BS. Which they deserve to hear.



Ten_year_hubby said:


> All well and good if you're looking to be single again and have your kids shuttled between estranged parents. I've given a lot of consideration to this but challenging my wife to change or be left is just not on the table for me. .


Then in your case, your must learn how to tolerate her abuse or react to it differently if leaving and/or terminating the marriage aren't options you will consider.

Do not expect her to change her behavior though. 



Ten_year_hubby said:


> Threatening to leave or threatening to divorce is abusive in itself and is outside any kind of rules for fair fighting..


They are only threats if they are not followed through with.

Being abused and treated in an abusive manner by a spouse or anyone else is not "fighting fair." 



Ten_year_hubby said:


> The fact that one spouse doesn't have enough self control to fight fair doesn't justify the other spouse willfully doing the same. I personally don't think this strategy has a better than 50 percent chance of producing the desired result.


Eh.  You are only "doing the same" if you start treating her the way she treats you. If you are in a relationship that doesn't meet your needs (where you are habitually and constantly belittled, degraded, emotionally blanked, cast aside and treated like dirt ) and you advise the abuser that if the status quo continues, you will walk, is not abusive. It's stating a boundary with consequences and seeing it through. 

Let me guess: your wife would totally lose her sh!t if you treated her the way she treats you? There would probably be hell to pay, right? Double standards galore? 

Yeah...

So again, if terminating the relationship and/or leaving/divorce/separation aren't things you will consider, then you just have to suck it up and "deal with it" as they say.


----------



## turnera

Ten Year, I'm pretty sure it's your methods that are getting you the bad results.


----------



## Jellybeans

If you do the same, you can expect the same...


----------



## turnera

What I described is called boundaries/enforcement. If your partner is abusive, or does something harmful, YOU tell them that YOU do not want to endure it and that YOU will remove yourself from the situation if they persist.

That's a warning. That's your boundary.

IF they ignore you and do it again, you show them the enforcement, the consequence, that they will face by choosing to do it again after you have said YOU will not be a party to it.

That consequence is that YOU leave the room. 

It has nothing to do with forcing them to change, to stop, to do ANYTHING. You are simply calmly, politely stating YOUR boundary and YOUR action if it persists. 

She is now free to either continue to abuse - to the air, since you are no longer in the room - or to stop. HER choice. Has nothing to do with you. 

IF she continues to try to bait you every time you're in the room again, and REPEATS the abuse, you then repeat your consequence - leaving. The point of increasing the level of the removal (minutes, then hour, then overnight, then days, etc.) is that you are showing her - in a markedly obvious and hard-to-ignore way (as in you being gone for 7 days) - that you respect yourself too much to continue to be harmed by her. SHE, however, is free to go out and look for someone ELSE to harm if she wants - it just won't be you.

There is nothing abusive in that, nothing harmful, nothing passive aggressive, nothing emotional. It is merely you stating a boundary and you providing a consequence if your boundary is overstepped. 

It is used all over the world and is a well-established and well-accepted method, because it has nothing to do with trying to change your partner (since you can't and that's pointless), and everything to do with you protecting yourself. 

Your partner is free, at any time in this journey, to put two and two together and realize 'gee, every time I yell/threaten/ABC, he leaves. Hmmm. Maybe I should try NOT yelling/threatening/ABCing and try something else.'


----------



## COGypsy

And in the meantime, you model self-respect, healthy boundaries and conflict resolution skills for your kids instead of reinforcing and validating the power and control dynamic of the victim - abuser relationship.


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## Ten_year_hubby

As much as l like the concept in theory, I'm just not seeing how setting and enforcing a boundary as a means of changing your my spouse is going to do that successfully in practice.

I think we know that the abuser sees themselves as entitled. We also know that abusive behavior is not "fighting fair". If I "set and enforce a boundary" with the enforcement being divorce when that I know my spouse is just not going to be capable of respecting that boundary then I can only see two possible results. Either I get divorced or I threatened to get divorced and didn't which I consider abusive. The fact that the rate of escalation and the exact level of behavior that triggers enforcement is calculated on the fly makes the process arbitrary in my opinion. It's a fine was to get personal vindication for oneself before getting divorced but I don't see it having a better than 50 percent chance of accomplishing the ostensible goal which is to stop the abusive behavior.

Everyone is changing and everyone can change. People who grow up in a family situation that includes alcoholism among other things often find themselves stuck with an inflexible personality in adulthood. Combining that with unconscious/compulsive modeling of their parent's abusive behavior leaves them even farther in the hole. Now add a spouse that wants to fix them using a method that will almost certainly result in divorce and we have a true tragedy, one that you call watch all day any day in family court.

Observing a binary decision limited to either "sucking it up" or getting divorced leads to a classic "my way or the highway" situation. When one's spouse is personally limited in such a way that "my way" is not possible, the highway is the default path


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

turnera said:


> Ten Year, I'm pretty sure it's your methods that are getting you the bad results.


I'm getting a hint of blaming the victim here.


----------



## Jellybeans

It's not "blaming" the victim. It's saying taht if you continue to do the same things, you can expect the same results.

Ten--from your posts, it's clear you rather stay married and tolerate the bad behavior because setting boundaries doesn't gel with you. If that is the case, you can expect her to treat you the same as she has in the past.


----------



## Jellybeans

Ten_year_hubby said:


> As much as l like the concept in theory, I'm just not seeing how setting and enforcing a boundary as a means of changing your my spouse is going to do that successfully in practice.


Boundaries aren't put in place to "change" someone. They are put into place in order to state what YOU are willing to accept. Boundaries are never for the other person. They are meant for YOU.



Ten_year_hubby said:


> I think we know that the abuser sees themselves as entitled. We also know that abusive behavior is not "fighting fair". If I "set and enforce a boundary" with the enforcement being divorce *when that I know my spouse is just not going to be capable of respecting that boundary* then I can only see two possible results. Either I get divorced or I threatened to get divorced and didn't which I consider abusive..


If you know your wife does not respect your bundaries, you have already caved. You are saying it's fine for her to treat you the way she does and you will tolerate it because you feel meeting her needs is more important than having yours met. Over and over again.

You said yourself she doesn't "fight fair." But you are not even putting up a fight. It's "doormat" behavior. Yeah I said it.



Ten_year_hubby said:


> The fact that the rate of escalation and the exact level of behavior that triggers enforcement is calculated on the fly makes the process arbitrary in my opinion. It's a fine was to get personal vindication for oneself before getting divorced but I don't see it having a better than 50 percent chance of accomplishing the ostensible goal which *is to stop the abusive behavior*


Actually, you've got this backwards. If you divorce and/or remove yourself from the relationship, you don't even have to worry about "stopping" the abusive behavior. You don't have to deal with it anymore at all because you have cut off the relationship. 



Ten_year_hubby said:


> Everyone is changing and everyone can change.


People can change. If they want to. If they don't want to, they won't. If someone sees their behavior as fine then they have no reason to change the behavior. They don't see anything wrong with what they are doing despite what you tell them.




Ten_year_hubby said:


> Observing a binary decision limited to either "sucking it up" or getting divorced leads to a classic "my way or the highway" situation. When one's spouse is personally limited in such a way that "my way" is not possible, the highway is the default path


The person abusing* is* doing the whole "my way or the highway" thing. They essentially say and think "If you don't do what I like, I will abuse you and *I don't care *what you say/how you feel about it. So you need to tolerate it because this is how I am. Or you can leave. Tough cookies."


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## turnera

There's a video that's viral that shows a toddler throwing a temper tantrum. The mommy and daddy behind the camera back away and move into another room. The screaming stops and after a few seconds, you see the toddler walking into the new room, looking for the parents. As soon as he finds them, he immediately throws himself back on the floor and starts screaming, beating his fists on the ground, etc. The parents again move to another room; screaming stops; toddler comes looking for them; finds them; starts the tantrum up again as soon as he sees he has an audience. 

See how that works?

_Remove yourself from her temper tantrums and she has no one to throw the tantrum ON._


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## turnera

Ten_year_hubby said:


> As much as l like the concept in theory, I'm just not seeing how setting and enforcing a boundary *as a means of changing your spouse* is going to do that successfully in practice.


Are you reading what we write, or just glancing at it? I said _'you can't change anyone else_. All you can do is remove yourself from the abuse.'



> If I "set and enforce a boundary" with the enforcement being divorce when that I know my spouse is just not going to be capable of respecting that boundary then I can only see two possible results. Either I get divorced or I threatened to get divorced and didn't which I consider abusive. The fact that the rate of escalation and the exact level of behavior that triggers enforcement is calculated on the fly makes the process arbitrary in my opinion. It's a fine was to get personal vindication for oneself before getting divorced but I don't see it having a better than 50 percent chance of accomplishing the ostensible goal which is to stop the abusive behavior.


Have you done any reading? Do you know how this all works? Do you realize that abusers only abuse VICTIMS (i.e., people who ALLOW themselves to remain victims)? If you stop being a victim (accepting the poor treatment), she naturally stops abusing you.

You seem to think that your only choices are to leave her or to let her treat you bad. 

Apparently all you saw in my suggestions was DIVORCE. No. I said start standing up for yourself. Make that action progressively stronger. At SOME point in the escalation, she will realize you are no longer going to accept the treatment. 

Could you end up divorced? Maybe. So could I. Or anyone else. But YOU have a myriad of actions available to you to change your dynamics. Acceptance or divorce are not your only choices.


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## turnera

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I'm getting a hint of blaming the victim here.


 If you're that testy with me, you only enforce what I said. If you want your life to change, don't just look at 'fixing' her - look at yourself, how you deal with things, how you react, whether you bite off the head of the messenger (like you did here) or whether you take a good, decent look at yourself. Unfortunately, that's what it takes for us to improve our lives - being honest with ourselves.

I'm not saying your wife's not a witch. I'm just asking you to look at your own actions when she goes off on you. Maybe you can choose new patterns, to stop getting the same result.


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## Jellybeans

turnera said:


> Could you end up divorced? Maybe. So could I. Or anyone else. But YOU have a myriad of actions available to you to change your dynamics. Acceptance or divorce are not your only choices.


Turner--I was married an emot. abuser. I did the whole MC, tried to remove myself from the room, stated my boundaries and his behavior did not stop. He was not willing to stop the behavior. So eventually one day I did leave. We divorced. I got to thepoint where I realized I would just have to do the "acceptance or divorce." I am wondering what your thoughts are on this?

Believ eme, I did not want a divorce at all and was willing to try any/everything as long as he would stop the poor treatments. He just wasn't willing to.


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## turnera

I have to admit that I'm biased when it comes to abusers. I tend to think that the antagonistic, aggressive behavior of a true abuser is more naturally endemic to a male. When I hear that a woman is being abusive, I always wonder if that is just a spoiled brat using her tried and true ways of getting what she wants. So I do question if Ten_year's wife is truly abusive. That's why I'm asking him to recheck his actions to see if this is just a blown up relationship gone bad.

It's true that true abusers will NOT change. If Mrs. Ten_Year is truly defective, she will NOT change, and I will then advocate that he DOES leave and divorce her (and also attempt to document the abuse so he can get custody of the kids).


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## Ten_year_hubby

turnera said:


> I tend to think that the antagonistic, aggressive behavior of a true abuser is more naturally endemic to a male. ... So I do question if Ten_year's wife is truly abusive. That's why I'm asking him to recheck his actions


Am I really reading this? I am truly saddened


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## Ten_year_hubby

turnera said:


> you bite off the head of the messenger (like you did here)


??


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## turnera

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Am I really reading this? I am truly saddened


 *shrug*

Phrasing words as you do actually make me suspect you more than your wife (turning a good phrase is a big sign of someone who manipulates people - NOT saying you are, just pointing that out. Give us some examples of how she abuses you, and maybe I can find some specific reactions to such abuses that may help you.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Jellybeans said:


> Turner--I was married an emot. abuser. I did the whole MC, tried to remove myself from the room, stated my boundaries and his behavior did not stop. He was not willing to stop the behavior. So eventually one day I did leave. We divorced. I got to thepoint where I realized I would just have to do the "acceptance or divorce." I am wondering what your thoughts are on this?
> 
> Believ eme, I did not want a divorce at all and was willing to try any/everything as long as he would stop the poor treatments. He just wasn't willing to.


If I can get any traction at all, maybe one can try to distinguish between "willing to stop" and "able to stop" before one puts their spouse into a double bind from which the spouse is in no way capable of escaping and assessing a penalty of total loss.


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## turnera

Ten_year_hubby said:


> ??


 I suggested you look at yourself and how you deal with her, and instead of actually DOING what I suggested, your response was "getting a hint of blaming the victim," which is a deflection and usually intended to cut off that line of conversation. So, instead of considering the merit of the suggestion, you turn it back around on me - the messenger. How does that help you achieve a better marriage?


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

turnera said:


> *shrug*
> 
> Phrasing words as you do actually make me suspect you more than your wife (turning a good phrase is a big sign of someone who manipulates people - NOT saying you are, just pointing that out. Give us some examples of how she abuses you, and maybe I can find some specific reactions to such abuses that may help you.


Thanks but no thanks, already got my own. Trying to help the OP see some color in the black and white world but I'm vulnerable and I'm hurt. Regarding my wife, it takes a special person to decide out of the blue to divorce a guy that just lost his mom. But I forgive her, I still love her and I probably always will


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## turnera

I'm sorry for your loss. But you never said what the issues were in your marriage, just that your wife was abusive and 'out of the blue' filed for divorce, so it's hard to understand what really happened.


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## Jellybeans

turnera said:


> It's true that true abusers will NOT change. If Mrs. Ten_Year is truly defective, she will NOT change, and I will then advocate that he DOES leave and divorce her (and also attempt to document the abuse so he can get custody of the kids).


Yeah, I agree. It's rare the abuser who DOES change.

Though, I do believe both men and women alike can be abusive.



Ten_year_hubby said:


> Regarding my wife, it takes a special person to decide out of the blue to divorce a guy that just lost his mom. But I forgive her, I still love her and I probably always will


Has she told you she is divorcing you?


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## turnera

I think he said he went on a trip and came back to divorce papers.


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## Jellybeans

Oh. I see. 

Well in that case, he should get a lawyer and respond to the petition.


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## Uptown

turnera said:


> When I hear that a woman is being abusive, I always wonder if that is just a spoiled brat using her tried and true ways of getting what she wants. So I do question if Ten_year's wife is truly abusive.


Turnera, I've been following TenYear's posts since the middle of last year and have found that, yes, the behavior he describes is very abusive. Such behavior is abusive and vindictive regardless of whether it arises from "spoiled brat" thinking or another thought distortion. Like TenYear, I lived with a very abusive W for 15 years. And I have communicated over the past five years with several hundred partners and spouses of very angry, abusive women. I therefore do not share your experience of seeing "true abuse" to primarily be the province of males. Indeed, I would not be surprised if at least a third of the "abusive males" arrested by police are victims of their abusive female BPDer spouses and partners. 

As you know, my exW called the police and had me arrested on a bogus charge so that -- during my time in jail -- she could obtain a restraining order barring me from my own home for the 18 months it took her to obtain a divorce in this State. These misguided arrests are extremely common. Indeed, the policeman who arrested me said that, whenever there is doubt about the couple's stories, their common practice is to arrest the person who did NOT make the call. He therefore recommended that, if I ever lived with her again, that I should beat her to the phone if she tries the same thing again. I therefore agree with Jellybeans that "true abusers" are just as likely to be women as men.


> That's why I'm asking him to recheck his actions to see if this is just a blown up relationship gone bad.


If you get a chance to read through his many detailed and articulate posts, I believe you will find that TenYear has been checking and rechecking for over a year. Verbal abuse, temper tantrums, hissy fits, constant blaming, and black-white thinking are not difficult to spot in a woman you've been living with for a year or more. I therefore believe him when he says his W is abusive.


> If Mrs. Ten_Year is truly defective, she will NOT change, and I will then advocate that he DOES leave and divorce her (and also attempt to document the abuse so he can get custody of the kids).


If there were no kids involved, I would recommend divorce too because the W he describes is definitely abusive. Yet, whenever there are young kids, I always advise folks to do what is in the best interests of their children. My feeling is that, as a parent, TenYear is best positioned to know what is in the best interests of his own children. I therefore do not question the wisdom of his decision to remain in the marriage, at least for several more years, in order to spend more time with his kids. 

Given that decision, he is hard pressed to follow your advice on boundary conditions very closely. As Jellybeans explained so well above, his quandry is that enforcing such personal boundaries will certainly mean that the W divorces him. At issue, then, is whether there is some "middle ground" -- where he raises his boundaries a little bit and enforces them by a little bit of leaving -- that is better than what he is doing now. Perhaps so. Perhaps not. 

Tunera, without a doubt, nobody on this forum comes close to you in writing articulate and insightful instructions about how to establish stronger personal boundaries and how to go about enforcing them. And that story of yours about temper-tantrum baby (in the video gone viral) is so delightful that it makes one wonder whether TenYear can't achieve greater peace of mind by simply moving room to room.

Yet, because TenYear has already been enforcing his boundaries as much as he believes he can without triggering his W into filing for divorce, it is unclear whether there is any great gain to be made from better enforcement. It may be that, like Jellybeans experienced with her H, he will just have to keep tolerating abuse as the price that must be paid for remaining close to his kids all week long.


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## pidge70

turnera said:


> I have to admit that I'm biased when it comes to abusers. I tend to think that the antagonistic, aggressive behavior of a true abuser is more naturally endemic to a male. When I hear that a woman is being abusive, I always wonder if that is just a spoiled brat using her tried and true ways of getting what she wants. So I do question if Ten_year's wife is truly abusive. That's why I'm asking him to recheck his actions to see if this is just a blown up relationship gone bad.
> 
> It's true that true abusers will NOT change. If Mrs. Ten_Year is truly defective, she will NOT change, and I will then advocate that he DOES leave and divorce her (and also attempt to document the abuse so he can get custody of the kids).



I'm curious, could you explain what you would deem "defective"?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

Pidge, I apologize for letting that "defective" remark go by without commenting on it. I did so only because I know Turnera did not really mean it. Like us, she writes volumes on this forum and occasionally misstates things. I've read several hundred of Turnera's posts and -- except for this one occasion -- I've never seen her refer to any human being (no matter how serious his disorder) as being a "defective" person. She clearly understands that it is the behavior, not the person, which is defective and objectionable.


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## turnera

pidge70 said:


> I'm curious, could you explain what you would deem "defective"?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mentally unstable. Needing professional help. Receiving a professional diagnosis of needing professional help. Harmful.

It was not meant as a judgment, if that's what you're asking.

Uptown, thank you for the background. That's what I was asking Ten_Year about, because I didn't know his past. 

That said, I stand by my suggestions that if a person cannot or will not seek help, and boundaries don't work, separation IS a viable solution. Even with kids. If the children were living in two separate homes, at least one of the homes would be able to exhibit healthy living. And it may reach a level at the other such that the abuser would be more likely to be called out for the behavior and ordered to seek help.

Just as I would tell an abused woman to take the kids and leave, I would tell Ten_Year the same thing.


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## turnera

Uptown said:


> As Jellybeans explained so well above, his quandry is that enforcing such personal boundaries will certainly mean that the W divorces him.


Isn't she already doing that? She served him, and he says he called her bluff, and she backed down. So it seems to me he has a bit more power than he thought he did.


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## 3littleangelsmom

Jellybeans said:


> I agree 100%. Abusers get worse over time. Almost always.
> 
> Kris--google "emotional and verbal abuse." A myriad of links will pop up. I don't agree that all abusers have BPD. Some are just straight up abusive.
> 
> Get the book_ "Why does he do that?"_ by Lundy Bancroft. It will seriously run a shiver down your spine as you're reading it. You will learn that the abuse is all VERY calculated (sickening). You can pick it up at the library. It's about abusive men.


ALso check out the book "the verbally abusive relationship" by Patricia Evans!


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## turnera

I have to say - as a defender of abuse victims - that Evans' book is a little on the 'light' side as far as facts and proof goes. There are many other books that provide much greater verification of whether a person is being abused.


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## pidge70

turnera said:


> Mentally unstable. Needing professional help. Receiving a professional diagnosis of needing professional help. Harmful.
> 
> It was not meant as a judgment, if that's what you're asking.
> 
> Uptown, thank you for the background. That's what I was asking Ten_Year about, because I didn't know his past.
> 
> That said, I stand by my suggestions that if a person cannot or will not seek help, and boundaries don't work, separation IS a viable solution. Even with kids. If the children were living in two separate homes, at least one of the homes would be able to exhibit healthy living. And it may reach a level at the other such that the abuser would be more likely to be called out for the behavior and ordered to seek help.
> 
> Just as I would tell an abused woman to take the kids and leave, I would tell Ten_Year the same thing.




Well, I guess that means I am "defective".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

If that means that you need professional help to be able to maintain a healthy, happy place in society and refrain from harming other people - and cannot do it on your own WITHOUT that professional help, I guess so.


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## Uptown

pidge70 said:


> Well, I guess that means I am "defective".


No, but it certainly means I was wrong to rush to Turnera's defense on this particular issue. Turnera, your statement that a person suffering from a mental disorder is a "defective person" is appalling. I therefore assume that you simply don't understand the connotation of the term. In our society, we generally have a fundamental belief that all people are created equal and are equally loved by God. 

We therefore recoil at the notion that someone is "defective," which has the connotation of a person somehow being incomplete, fundamentally flawed, and less than other people. It is okay to use terms like "damaged" and "blind" and "sick" to describe people because it is commonly understood that those terms describe the person's body or emotional state, not the essence of the person herself. Hence, there is a world of difference between saying the behavior or body is defective and saying that the _person herself _is defective.

The last time I heard someone say "defective people" was last March, when Republican congressman Martin Harty (NH) told the manager of a community mental health program that "the world is too populated" and there are "too many defective people." See Lawmaker Complains About "Defective People".

That ignorant statement was such an embarassment to the entire Republican party that the congressman later apologized for his remark. If that 91 year old man has the presence of mind to apologize, Turnera, I am confident you do too.


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## that_girl

I'm not defective!  I had issues that I have resolved and haven't felt the need to be how I was in over 2 months.

People can change if they want it badly enough.


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## pidge70

Uptown said:


> No, but it certainly means I was wrong to rush to Turnera's defense on this particular issue. Turnera, your belief that a person suffering from a mental disorder is a "defective person" is simply appalling. The last time I heard someone say such a thing was last March, when Republican congressman Martin Harty (NH) told the manager of a community mental health program that "the world is too populated" and there are "too many defective people." See Lawmaker Complains About "Defective People".
> 
> That ignorant statement was such an embarassment to the entire Republican party that the congressman later apologized for his remark. If that 91 year old man has the presence of mind to apologize, Turnera, I am confident you do too.



Thank you for this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

all, I meant no disrespect to anyone and I'm sorry if I offended anyone. It wasn't a judgment, it was just the first word I thought of to mean something (not someone) that was causing trouble to the marriage.


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## pidge70

turnera said:


> all, I meant no disrespect to anyone and I'm sorry if I offended anyone. It wasn't a judgment, it was just the first word I thought of to mean something (not someone) that was causing trouble to the marriage.



Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog

Do they change? No, vampires do not change unless you kill them. Sorry.


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## pidge70

Runs like Dog said:


> Do they change? No, vampires do not change unless you kill them. Sorry.



I beg to differ.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog

Abusive people feed off your misery. It's their oxygen. They won't stop on their own. It doesn't make them bad people, just monsters.


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## pidge70

Wow!!! I used to find your cryptic remarks amusing. Now, I just find you insulting. I hope you find some peace in your life because you are obviously a bitter man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl

If you want to change, you can.

It's hard and trying, but it's worth it and it's not impossible.


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## joe kidd

that_girl said:


> If you want to change, you can.
> 
> It's hard and trying, but it's worth it and it's not impossible.


Pidge has made great strides. She was an unbearable b*tch. I'm proud of her, I thought at 1st it was lip service. If she hadn't made the change I would be gone. Hopefully she continues to be a success story.


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## that_girl

joe kidd said:


> Pidge has made great strides. She was an unbearable b*tch. I'm proud of her, I thought at 1st it was lip service. If she hadn't made the change I would be gone. Hopefully she continues to be a success story.


Aww is it your wife? 

I am in therapy for my issues which caused me to abuse my husband.

I have made progress and am proud of myself.

I had a setback today...but...I didn't lash out at him. I didn't even want to! I just told him what I needed in order to talk myself down. He still got a little upset because he didn't want to help (he was at work), but...not ONE ill word was said to him from me.  I am ok now...that was my first 'episode' in about 2 months. Before therapy, i had them almost 3 times a week....

I feel bad for bothering him at work  I apologized and haven't contacted him since. Hope I didn't eff stuff up.


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## Runs like Dog

pidge70 said:


> Wow!!! I used to find your cryptic remarks amusing. Now, I just find you insulting. I hope you find some peace in your life because you are obviously a bitter man.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I'm not intending to be insulting. My only point is that your relationship with anyone is not primarily about what they 'do' (to you) it's about what they 'are'. People don't really change that. They may change on the surface their day to day or moment to moment behaviors, they may learn to curb their button pushing. But underneath that they're generally the same and they generally don't change. 

I'm actually ok with that. I really don't care much about the 'inner child'. I have much more day to day interaction with the 'outer adult'. If he or she more or less manage that in a more or less responsible and adult fashion then whatever toxic waste is flowing through their veins, I can neither fix nor care about. 

If that's cold and bitter so be it. Everyone has to make their own choices in life vis a vis how much of their affliction they want to inflict on everyone else.


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## Phoenix01

Can they change?? From my experience they are able to control their behaviour to try to convince you that they have. I have been with my boyfriend for almost four years on and off and he has displayed the most verbally abusive, irrational angry behaviour I have ever known infact Ive never known it.

He is controlling, bullying he belittles me puts me down and says the most hurtful things ever over and over , now i can see he pattern. He never apologised, blamed me for everything .

I finished with him many times the last time we were apart for nearly 3 months, he had affected my self confidence so much that i had to take extensive sick leave, he left me a shell almost a recluse.

Stupidly I took him back and for 8 weeks he was the most kind gentle romantic loving man id ever met, I wept with happiness he's changed...but no at the end of the 8th week, obviously unable to lve a lie anymore the abuse resurfaced. The end for me came when he started calling my beautiful 5 year old names, tht is it over for me for good.

So back to the question can abusive men change, I say possibly they can but permanent change i think would mean counselling and support to unlearn the behaviours they think are right.

And ladies I can see so well that it was me who was enabling his bad behaviour allowing it to continue, believe all the bad things he said. So if you want permanent change I think that means walking away, loving someone means treating them with love and respect .

So the only way to make him change is to change yourself get some self respect and believe everyone deserves to be treated right.


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## Runs like Dog

That's why we call them personalities not characters in a play. They are what they are. They really don't change and if we were being honest, they don't want to change.


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## that_girl

I changed and I wanted to change.

Eff me if I was to live like that...but my reasons were stupidly about myself and no one else. Fix me, fix the problem.

Our home is so much more calm. i am so much more calm. It's great


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## All Alone

I have read through all of these posts and find it very frustrating. I am the verbal abuser (the controlling type, not actual verbally) in my relationship. It's been stated several times that I knew what I was doing when I treated my wife like that. I completely disagree with that. I wasn't knowingly trying to hurt her. What I call my "frying pan" moment (think Fred Flintstone) was when my wife told me she was done. It was like a light went off in my head of how I treated her. So I did something about it and stopped it. I know, that's impossible according to every book and website out there. But I am here to say that if you love someone enough and want it bad enough you can change and stay that way. I am going on 3 months and still am not the angry controlling person I was.


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## turnera

But it wouldn't have happened without that moment. Good for you. Are you in therapy to find out why you gravitate to that behavior?


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## Uptown

All Alone said:


> So I did something about it and stopped it. I know, that's impossible according to every book and website out there. But I am here to say that if you love someone enough and want it bad enough you can change and stay that way. I am going on 3 months and still am not the angry controlling person I was.


AllAlone, congratulations on your remarkable achievement. If you have a strong pattern of BPD traits, such a change is not impossible at all. On the contrary, there are excellent treatment programs available all over the country. And I've communicated on forums with nearly a hundred BPDers who, like you, had the self awareness and ego strength to be able to learn to control their emotions and anger. What is so remarkable about it is that such a feat is quite rare. I have never knowingly met a such a person in my private life (although I've met numerous BPDers). I would be surprised if any more than 1% of high functioning BPDers -- and most are high functioning -- ever achieve such a thing. Again, if you suffer from strong BPD traits, I applaud your achievement.


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## pidge70

It isn't easy but, it can be done. I battle everyday to not revert back to the way I was.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## All Alone

Tunera, Most of how I acted was due to how I was raised. My mom did everything around the house. I am in a support group but not in actual therapy. I mostly rely on my faith and the open communication with others. Being able to talk about it helps me. The main thing is how I realized how stupid the things I did were. Not disregaurding the trama to my wife but it was stupid things that I would get mad about, i.e pulling weeds in the yard. I just know how bad I treated my wife and refuse to be that way towards her anymore.


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## kekel1123

Abuse is abuse no matter what. BUt when the abuser knows that he/she will loose her WIFE, HUSBAND, KIDS and best of all FAMILY, it should be a wake up call. I for one is a living example. I normally freak out on small little things. The way we brought up and the environment we grew in plays a vital role of what we are today. But CHANGE IS CHANGE. If you WANT TO CHANGE for a BETTER YOU, (and yor FAMILY), you CAN ! WILL POWER AND DETERMINATION. You MAY experience some shortfall along the way , but if your DETERMINED to do it, YOU CAN BEFORE ITS TOO LATE! If you change yourself, then if they see it, Im pretty sure everything WILL CHANGE. If not, then at least you CHANGE YOU FOR A BETTER YOU! I am on IC, and anger manangement that i feel helps me a lot. I am reading books as well , that was recommended here and watched the movie FIREPROOF, recommended here as well. Enough said, ACKNOWLODGING THE PROBLEM AND FIXING IT BY YOURSELF, will be a great deal for you and your FAMILY! IMAO!


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## idunno2

Jellybeans said:


> I personally feel that it's a character defect/issue.
> A personality problem" or whatever you want to define it as.
> 
> Its rare the abuser that changes. They tend to change for a little bit but what they are is always there. And they also tend to get worse over time. It's sick, really.
> 
> I think the ones who do change have an epiphany or something major has to happen for them to realize the damage they have caused and inflicted on their loved ones/people around them. It can and will only change IF they admit/realize there is a problem, get help for the problem, acknowledg ethe problem, apologize to those they have hurt and actually COMMIT to changing the destructive behavior.
> 
> My ex was very emotionally abusive and even when I talk to him now, it's still there, that "dark cloud"--lingering in the background.
> 
> You can't give in to their tantrums. Stand your ground. You mentioned it's "cyclical," and you are spot on. Abuse IS cyclical. It's one big merry-go-round of terror that never ends. It's is happy, then a conflict, then the blow up, then the calm time, then happy, conflict, a blow up, calm time--over and over again. My ex would be ok for about 2-3 months at most and it would start all over again. And it was horrible. I couldn't live like that anymore. Neverending circle.
> 
> You said you lost love/trust/respect for him--this happened with me too. Eventually all the love I had for him was stripped away and nothing was left but resentment. Once that resentment starts in, it is HARD to go back to how you saw them before. For me, it hasn't happened all the way, even after we split.
> 
> If he is desperate, I say give it another shot but explain to him what you need from him to start even believing him. Tell him you aren't f-cking around and that talk is cheap. ACTIONS are what counts.
> 
> Good luck.


This is how my life is and how I feel to a Tee. What ultimately happened between you and you're significant other? I am beginning to believe too that I will not be able to see my wife the same way again, as I once did, even if things were to improve. I suppose it would have to take a lot of time to get us back to where we used to be. My wife's cycle of blowing up and going crazy then going back to being nice is monthly - a monthly cycle. These days, I actually get nervous and anxious when she starts to be nice and happy, because I know that soon, she will flip out over something and yell about how much she hates me. Makes no sense, and has destroyed me emotionally over time. Now, I am contemplating divorce as I don't want to live like this for the next 60 years. But I still hold onto the point that maybe things will change...


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## Uptown

idunno2 said:


> My wife's cycle of blowing up and going crazy then going back to being nice is monthly - a monthly cycle.


Idunno, I left a response in your _My List of Hell_ thread -- agreeing that you are describing many classic traits of BPD. An unanswered question, however, is WHEN you first started seeing these dysfunctional traits. Because BPD traits are persistent, they do not disappear for years and then suddenly appear in the last year or two of your marriage. Rather, they typically start at the end of the infatuation period, i.e., about six months in. I therefore seek that information in your thread.

Above, you say that her angry mood changes come regularly in a monthly pattern. If so, the mood changes are far more likely to be caused by monthly hormone changes, not by BPD. If so, that is wonderful news because hormone changes can be easily treated by swallowing a pill. In contrast, the angry mood changes seen in BPD sufferers are very difficult to treat, usually taking years of therapy. 

Such mood changes are event triggered and fairly unpredictable because BPDers are emotionally unstable. My exW, for example, typically had a blow up about every two or three weeks but it was not matched to her hormone changes at all that I could tell. Instead, the changes were triggered by some minor thing I did or said, e.g., glancing at another woman for 3/4 second instead of 1/2 second.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

No, they get worse as time goes on!

My ex husband is an abuser! I only stayed with him for a year before calling it quits. I was looking for a way to justify myself to leave and therefore I had to have solid proof he was cheating. As if the abuse wasn't enough. He never hit me, but he did hold me hostage in our apartment. This was years ago and the year we were together was pure hell! His rages were horrible and almost killed my daughter and I on the freeway slamming his breaks in his car when getting in front of my car. He married one of the women he cheated on me. He now has cheated on her, but they are still together after 17 years. He has become physically abusive towards her at times and the emotional/verbal abuse has gotten much worse. Funny thing is after all these years, I'm to blame for his misery. We have a daughter together, but he can not stand her. He hates women and has zero respect for anyone. 

My current husband is the best man I ever come across. He is kind, patient, caring and respects me. These last 13 years with my current husband have been the best years of my life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> He hates women


I've found that pretty common in abusers: belief that women are beneath them.


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## h0pe

turnera said:


> I've found that pretty common in abusers: belief that women are beneath them.


I am married to a controlling verbally abusive man and I can assure you, the handwriting was on the wall the first time I met him but of course I ignored it. A man who disses his mother and sister is not going to respect his wife!

Its back and forth with him. One day I am the Love of His Life!, next day its "Im tired of you and have been for a long time. I want out!"

Finally today another screeching from him and I called a lawyer for a divorce consult. I feel free but so sad. So very sad...


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## idunno2

Same situation here h0pe.

I am seeing a divorce attorney for a consult today. I do not want to do this at all and even sometimes think I am making a mistake by going this far with it. I don't see myself with anyone else, but I feel like I'm being forced to file papers to give me peace of mind over the next 60 years of my life.

Every single day with my wife I wake up and think about what she is going to get into today, or what surprise, or what problem she is going to leave me with today. It's a roller coaster, it's dramatic and weirdly exciting, but over time it has just brought me down and slowly destroyed what we used to have. If it's not one thing it's another with her.

I still sometimes think I can fix things and help her and myself, but I keep telling myself that this has been going on for years, and we have discussed this to death already. There is nothing more I can do here, especially if she is unwilling to put forth any effort at all and continue to believe that I am the source of our problems.

I look back and realize I was such a fool to come back to her (after our first split). Maybe if I follow through a second time and leave it at that, I will be able to look back and realize I finally made the right decision.


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## turnera

You're doing the right thing - getting balance back in your life. Once you detach from her, emotionally and legally, YOU are in control and you can decide if you want to let her back in your life...on YOUR terms (therapy, medication, etc.).


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## idunno2

Well nevermind that... lawyer wants $1,500 which I don't have. His consult fee was small. I could see another lawyer but his consult fee is much higher (though doable if really needed).


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## turnera

If you can't afford it, go online and get a separation agreement for your state - you can probably get it through your state's website. Get your ducks in a row, separate your finances so she can't get to your money, and make the move.


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## Jellybeans

idunno2 said:


> What ultimately happened between you and you're significant other?


We divorced earlier this year.



turnera said:


> I've found that pretty common in abusers: belief that women are beneath them.


SOO true. My exH refers to women as "b!tches" constantly. He had one standard for women, and another for men.


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## charlene

Oh my god , so like mine too... he doesn't say b!tches,but another word i can't translate. And the thing with the standard too!!! it's freaky, they''re so alike! Sometimes i think my husband actually didn't want a wife like me,like i doesn't fit in his standards for a wife....


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## akmb07

mine will do things for you and then hold them over your head and now give two ****s if you were hurt or not.


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## newjoy777

My experience with my verbally/emotionally abusive STBX is that he can't really change. When I first told him I was going to leave, he did a great job of convincing me that he would change--he went back to therapy, was sweet and loving, left me little gifts and poems, etc. This went on for a couple of months. But then when he realized I wasn't going to change my mind and was really leaving, he did a complete about-face. He now spends most of our time together telling me that I'M the abusive, manipulative, sick one, not him. That I ruined our marriage. He sends me long, ranting emails about how I had better "wake up" and start dealing with my issues. It's almost as though he's looking in the mirror but seeing my face there instead of his.

My experience is that stress brings out the worst of the abusive behavior, so if your spouse thinks they can make things better, and that eases their stress, they will behave better. But if things don't go their way, they feel stressed again, and all the abusive stuff comes back up. 

I honestly believe, in most cases, the only right thing to do is get out if you can. I just wish I'd had the strength to do it years ago.


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## Jellybeans

newjoy777 said:


> My experience is that stress brings out the worst of the abusive behavior, so if your spouse thinks they can make things better, and that eases their stress, they will behave better. But if things don't go their way, they feel stressed again, and all the abusive stuff comes back up.


This is true. I firmly believe that how someone reacts under pressure/stress says a lot about their character. How they handlet hings when the going gets tough is a HUGE eye opener into how they will act in other situations.


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## that_girl

I have been in therapy for 4, almost 5, months now and I haven't done any abuse since  It's wonderful to be so calm. My old triggers don't trigger me any longer. I appreciate my little family and husband and life. Therapy has done wonders for me.

 Just sayin', it can happen.


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## jpc

Newjoy, I couldn't agree with you more. This was also my experience. When sweet doesn't work then it's onto the angry, scary stuff. I think abusers generally don't change. At least not in a matter of months. 5-10 years is more like it as far as I'm concerned, but I wasn't about to wait around that long to find out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaffa

just joined forum looking for answers about my 30yr relationship with my husband who is verbally/emotionally abusive. have been doing my couselling for 18mths now and then my councilor presented me with patricia evans book verbally abusive relationships and how to recognise them. still trying to get my head around it all, the question i have today is can he change i love him so much but the cycle is well and truly established nice guy when gone too far bad guy when i begin to feel this is working this time. does he know he's doing this why is he doing this he now says he go to councilling for the rest of his life if thats what it takes but is that because i served a 3yr barring order before xmas he said this needed to happen he now realises what he wants. i am sooo confused and feel i will crack up


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

I've seen my husband lash out at others and provoke them needlessly since I've taken myself out of the equation. Distance has given me perspective. It was partly me, for providing a receptacle for his needs, but it's wasn't all me. He is doing the same thing but to other people. I think at some level he needs the abuse and anger that comes back to him. It must be how he feels alive. :-( Sometimes I want to explain to the people he is provoking the background behind why he is being how he is, hot and cold...he will sometimes apologize to people, saying how it was a joke or he was just jerking them around... but I figure let other people develop a sense of him, I don't need to interfere, after all, he isn't marrying them. I like the idea of natural consequences...if he continues like he is, hopefully someone or a group of someones will tell him like it is. He has been in fights, before he always used to frame it so that it was the other person's fault and that it was a last resort he used...now I am not sure.


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## turnera

jaffa, if he really wants to get help, he will. It's not up to you.

What IS up to you is no longer being the 'receptacle' for his abuse. 

If you love him, you will leave him so that he has a reason to get help.


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## Heavyhearted

After reading much of this thread, I would just like to urge a little bit of caution when labeling people as "abuser" or as having BPD unless you are a professional psychiatrist or psychologist. You could really do some damage if you are wrong. It seems to be getting easier and becoming more common for people to claim that they are being abused or that the other person has a mental disorder as soon as a fight ensues between the two. Usually it is a female saying that a male is abusive and it is all too common.

Unless both sides of the story are presented (and they usually are not), it becomes easy for one person to make all kinds of claims without taking any personal responsibility. Hence, the word "abuser" gets used and it is all down hill from there. 

Most people, even if mentally healthy, could easily show short term symptoms of mental instability or abusive behavior when involved in some sort of drawn out conflict between loved ones or where there is children involved. Emotions are high and the stakes are too. One person could easily label their spouse as and "emotional or mental abuser" or as someone having BPD and be completely wrong. Sometimes the person labeling could be the one suffering. Maybe their passive aggressive behavior (which is just as bad as mental abuse) is spurring verbal abuse from the other partner. After all, passive aggressives are always the victim right?

My point is: Don't label or try to diagnose your spouse because of something you read on the internet or in some book. You are not qualified to do so. For those giving advice, be careful of the damage you may inflict on someone's family by encouraging them to leave their spouse because you think their spouse has a mental disorder. Kids could be involved. You also were not there and you do not know the full truth. You are only hearing one side. 

and i do realize people come for advice and you can only work with what you are told.....I'm just saying be careful......


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## Uptown

Heavyhearted said:


> Most people, even if mentally healthy, could easily show short term symptoms of mental instability or abusive behavior when involved in some sort of drawn out conflict between loved ones or where there is children involved.


HH, I agree with you. As I said earlier, every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if they are emotionally healthy. It is because we all have experienced these traits first-hand that it is easy for us to spot them in other people. These traits become a problem only when they are so strong and persistent as to undermine the person's ability to sustain LTRs.


> My point is: Don't ... try to diagnose your spouse because of something you read on the internet or in some book. You are not qualified to do so.


I agree but, then, nobody in this thread has claimed to render a diagnosis. Before you graduated high school, HH, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur.

In every field of the medical sciences, a "diagnosis" is the act of looking at symptoms and identifying the disease causing them. Because the same set of symptoms may be caused by a dozen different diseases, there is some danger that a misdiagnosis will result in your being treated for the wrong disease. 

This is why, on the hundreds of forums dedicated to medical problems, the members oftentimes are critical of another member claiming to know a diagnosis. At the same time, however, you will see a thousand members talking 24/7 about their symptoms and how severe those symptoms are. And you likely will never see a member chastising someone for "trying to diagnose" or being an "armchair doctor" when discussing symptoms.

Everyone understands that it is perfectly reasonable to discuss the severity of symptoms one is seeing. Indeed, when you go to the doctor's office, the first thing he will ask is "What symptoms have you been having?" Moreover, most major medical centers and hospitals have created webpages targeted to laymen explaining the symptoms of various diseases. Those institutions know that the knowledge of symptoms is a good thing because, the more knowledgeable a person is, the quicker he is likely to seek treatment.

Yet, when we come here on ENA and do exactly the same thing when discussing personality disorder (PD) symptoms, a few members mistakenly claim we are "trying to diagnose." The problem is that, when we are talking about a PD such as BPD, those members confuse "symptoms" for "disease." They do not understand that, for PDs, it is impossible to misdiagnose the diseases because THERE ARE NO KNOWN DISEASES. 

Clearly, no psychologist with a brain has ever been convinced that the 10 PDs are caused by 10 different diseases. From the beginning, the 10 PDs were intended to be nothing more than classificatory devices that make it easier to discuss the symptoms therapists had been observing for decades as occurring together in patterns. The 9 BPD traits, for example, are nothing more than 9 symptoms that are often seen occurring together, thus forming a recognizable pattern of symptoms (i.e., traits). 

Strictly speaking, BPD is a "syndrome," which means it is a collection of dysfunctional symptoms. Because the American Psychiatric Association (APA) created too many of these groupings of symptoms, the draft version of the new diagnostic manual (to be released in 2013) is eliminating four of the PDs by consolidating them into the remaining 6 PDs (one of which is BPD).

This confusion about "diagnosis" arises because, _unlike doctors in every field of the medical sciences_, psychologists do not use the term "diagnosis" to mean "identification of a disease" when talking about PDs. They are unable to do a proper diagnosis because they cannot identify any PD diseases. Even so, insurance carriers and courts of law insisted that the APA draw a bright line to indicate when someone is extremely sick. Psychologists therefore use "diagnosis" to simply mean that a group of symptoms is so severe that the client needs treatment and perhaps hospitalization. Similarly, whereas the term "disorder" means "disease" in the medical sciences, it only means "group of dysfunctional symptoms" when psychologists are discussing PDs.

This means we should feel free to talk about BPD symptoms all day long -- without any fear that we are "misdiagnosing" a disease. There is no known disease to misdiagnose. Such discussions are not dangerous. This information will not burn your house down. Indeed, if our discussion of serious relationship problems is going to rise above "kick her to the curb" and "she's crazy," we often cannot avoid discussing symptoms like verbal abuse, inability to trust, inappropriate anger, temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, emotional instability, low self esteem, black-white thinking, and fear of abandonment. 

A person would have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to recognize those dysfunctional symptoms. There is nothing subtle or nuanced about them. They are as easy to spot as high fever, tiredness, head ache, and itching. Further, you don't have to render a "diagnosis" to know that these behaviors are called "BPD traits." It is a simple fact, not a diagnosis. It is a fact that those traits are shown on the DMS-IV list for BPD traits. And, because this information is considered beneficial -- not dangerous -- that list of traits is provided to laymen at the websites of hundreds of medical centers and educational institutions. See, e.g., Borderline Personality Disorder and http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/per...CTION=symptoms.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

HH I was raped in my own marriage by use of manipulation and lies. So I don't have many qualms about calling it what it is. Also I think if you're in a car and you express a concern about puddling and ask the driver to avoid it and they swerve into it deliberately and laugh, same with speeding or yanking somebody who is on belay and swearing at them when they control your safety and life 100%, there's little doubt remaining as to intentional abuse. Same goes for statement that they can hurt you if they want but they are choosing not to. Or not taking you to the hospital when you have asked to go, and not letting you leave the house or make a 911 call to get help to go to the hospital!

Sure people shouldn't apply labels, but I don't think we need to be politically correct about labeling abuse what it is.

Of course, nobody is thinking here that someone is making a diagnosis of someone they don't know over the internet. That would be absurd. People just come here for ideas, opinions and for others to share similar experiences and insight not psychiatric care. Usually someone who is relating to a mental illness will clearly state: my spouse was diagnosesd with [mental illness or other illness] and the behavior exhibited was ....

But to be PC about abuse, I don't think that's always necessary. If someone finds themselves accused of abuse, if they are not the abusive type, of course they would excuse themselves from the presence of the person who is accusing them of doing that. If they refuse, well, that's kind of abusive! I think that's a good way to tell the difference...if someone is not abusive, and the other spouse says they feel abused, then the one who is not abusive will decide that a separation is necessary, and immediately. Nobody in their right mind with any amount of respect for others would want to impose themselves upon anyone who felt they were on the receiving end of abuse - even if they didn't agree with it!


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## Heavyhearted

I still stand behind what I said. I am very aware that there is actual abuse going on out there and when it is true abuse it is very evident. I also know for a fact that people who have passive aggressive personalities can and will use labels such as "emotional/mental abuser" to villify their spouse in the eyes of other family members and friends. They are always the victim though and they are always looking for attention. I am assuming some of the posters of this very thread may fit the description if the truth were to be revealed.


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## turnera

And many of the passive aggressive personalities are actually abusers, and their victims are so intimidated they won't even bring it up.


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## Jellybeans

Heavyhearted said:


> After reading much of this thread, I would just like to urge a little bit of caution when labeling people as "abuser" or as having BPD unless you are a professional psychiatrist or psychologist. You could really do some damage if you are wrong.


Good point.

However the thread title is _*"Do emotional/verbal abusers change?"*
_

And the fact is, most abusers do NOT change.



turnera said:


> And many of the passive aggressive personalities are actually abusers, and their victims are so intimidated they won't even bring it up.


Touche! :rofl:

I love any post that is about how one shouldn't talk bad about abusers or make someone out to be an abuser and whoever would claim someone is abusive is prob just someone looking for attention and likes to play the victim.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

Abuse usually comes as a bit of a shock to the victim.
For the most part, they go through accommodation, blaming themselves, guilt, denial, and defensiveness (for their abuser), and when the counselor gives them a book about abusive relationships, they get defensive, because they think maybe it's them who is doing the abuse...

Sad. 
Really sad.


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