# Finding out more after possible affair is over...



## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

Ok, here it goes, my first post and hopefully not my last on these boards. I'm a 30 year old husband, with 2 children and a 32 year old wife. My wife works in a social atmosphere where it's easy to 'hook up' and she is around men she tends to lust over. At first I was secure enough with this job but now that things went south and some things are still coming to light about a possible affair she had, I'm not so sure I can handle it all. 

I'm not at the affair yet, just giving a backstory to it all. 

I was "the best husband" a women could ever have, there for our children, cleaned, cooked, had a great job, and paid attention to my wife's needs. She would constantly build me up to anyone she talked to, to a point where I was almost embarassed cause all people wanted to tell me was how great of a guy I was. I stayed humble and never let it get to my head because I knew I was just doing what I have always felt was my duty as a husband. I was secure in my relationship to a point where I felt I had no fear of he getting a job at a bar, where men would constantly hit on her, and I knew it would happen. I always felt there would be nothing that could be strong enough of a force to destroy what we had. Well...

A few monthes roll on and her job took over her life. I work a regular 8 - 5 job and she worked 4:45 - close (2 or 3 AM). She worked 4 weeknights and both days on the weekend, a lot of the times was to pick up other people's shifts so she could make more money. There was little time for "us". I expressed my dissatisfaction with it to her and things got better for a few weeks. Then it returned, she started taking on shifts and then she got into a gambling addiction where now she wouldn't get home until after 4 AM so she could spend the money, in hopes of winning more, at a local keno joint. She spiraled south and put us into a large debt. I became pretty depressed that things were going so poorly, had a fight with her about it, and then when things just kept coming up after that, I just shelled myself up and tried not to cause any more confrontation. She suggested to me I play some Call of Duty with her co-workers, so I went out and bought the game, and loved it. I started feeling like I had some social interaction with someone. It got to a point where I didn't want to stop playing. I would get home from work, throw food in for the kids, then sit down and enjoy myself. Well....

After a while of this, she started showing displeasure in the amount of time I was on the game. Even when she had time off I wanted to play. We just started drifting. I just tried to justify my wanting to play with the fact that we never had time together so the bulk of my time was spent trying to get over the fact we weren't together. Eventually, either she snapped or someone else came along, or both. 

We sat down and had a lengthy discussion about what we each needed from each other. I basically said I needed her to stop making me feel guilty about my 'hobby', and that I was working hard every day, come home and still do my duties (cook, clean, help with kids homework, bathes...etc) and that I need time to myself each night to just chill and have fun since she was never home. She said she wanted more time away from me, and that she started feeling good again while she was out without me. This was total shocker to me. So then we agreed on planned 'family nights' so there was no video games, no working, we are to be together those night with our children. That lasted one week before she planned another 'night out with the girls'. Then she said she didn't want me planning anything for her birthday, and she ended up going out alone. She passed out drunk and her friends brought her back... one of her friends was an ex-bf from long ago.... that's when I started wondering what the heck was going on here. 

I decided while she was passed out to read her interactions with the ex-bf. Nothing damning, but certainly wasn't like she being totally innocent since she didn't even want to tell me he was going out too. The texts were just basically telling him 'he better come' and 'I would be dissapointed in you if you don't show'. This is my wife, and she didn't even care to have me around, but this guy gets all teh attention. I was jealous, and confronted her the next day when she woke up. She knew I wasn't happy that things weren't discussed beforehand, and she was pushing me away. 

As the month rolled on, my daughter had a Halloween party at her school, and we were going to take her, but my wife wanted to dart out early so she could go get a costume for her work. I was, again, not to pleased as she was now not just pushing me away, but forgetting the children were missing their mother. I became more and more irate. 

Later that night, she showed me her costume, it was a skimpy police officer outfit with fishnet stockings. She had taken a few pictures of it, and sent it off to her 'friend' (the ex-bf). I didn't realize she did that until things started getting really suspicious and I checked phone logs a few weeks later. She also texted him 1000+ times that month. I was irate, and told her it was ridiculous to be doing that, but I didn't have anything else on them yet. Though I think that was enough to have serious suspicions. So I waited for her to trip up so I could really confront her, but communication stopped between them. 

Later that month, we had a date night, and she passed out drunk again. So I took her home and went back out to DD for my friends. While I was there, one of her co-workers cornered me and started telling me how my wife has to be stopped. First, she was basically getting involved in his marraige by be-freinding his wife and telling her all kinds of things about what a jerk he was. So he had to tell me that, then he started telling me things she has said about me to her co-workers. It was no longer 'best husband ever' material and was 'he makes me sick' and 'I want out'. I already knew she wasn't happy, but some of the other things she said were even more sick. He also told me he had suspicions she was cheating on me with her ex-bf. I got away from the guy and went to talk to one of her closer friends to try and straighten it all out. I knew he had a vendetta, so I couldn't believe it all. She basically calmed me down but I had to have a discussion with my wife about all this because its troubling and I wasn't going to let it fester.

So when I got home, she was starting to recover from her passing out, and I told her 'people are meddling dear'. She wondered what was said, so I told her what was said to me. She blew up and accused me of trying to prod people for information. In no way did I want to hear all of that, I just was picking up my friends to take them home, and her co-worker cornered me. So when she got defensive.... I got PO'ed! I told her everything that was said, and straight out called her a cheater even without the cold hard evidence. That night was not a good night at all, but we've since recovered, and the wounds have healed, mostly. 

I apologized of course, for becoming so irate, but my feelings about that night still lingered. She left her phone at home last night, so I went through it again just to see what all was going on during that time period. She erased all texts to her ex, and some to her friends too. She left a few to her friends though and when I read them, the wound resurfaced. I saw that she was trying to prevent me from being in the same place as her ex. When there was potential she told her friend 'This could be bad', and then a few texts later said how she would 'still tear it up after 13 years' when talking about a male security guard there that she went to high school with. So that is when I realized she was not only unhappy with me, but lusting over other men during that time, and there was something more going on between her and the ex that was more than just an EA. That's when I remembered missing condoms from my drawer one night and pretty much attributed it to her taking them. So.. I'm telling myself a physical affair happened. 

I confronted her last night, she didn't give me any answers, and just seemed upset, crying. I again confronted her today, but went to her crying because it's hurting so bad in the pit of my stomach. I needed real answers to what happened, but I'm still getting blanks. She started to slowly fess up, then backed away. She said 'I do feel guilty about flirting and all that I said and did, I went too far', followed by, 'It wasn't anything serious, I just asked how his daughter was doing and talked to him because I was bored. I texted him because you hardly answered.' But during this time, I was already ending my stint with the games and was paying full attention to her, so it didn't quite add up. She also fessed up to sending him pictures of her in her costume, but "couldn't recall" how many she sent or what else she sent (there were 8 total). Basically, I still feel like I'm being lied to even though we both want to get over it all and move on. She told me not to bring it up anymore so we can get over it, because she 'told me everything'. Well, I can't just get over it, I feel pretty hurt by it all. So, I want to work it out with her, but first I need her to fully confess, but I might be wrong in thinking it was more than just an EA. Should I keep badgering her, or just try to let it go since I plan to work it out anyways? I don't have solid proof it was more than an EA, but she admitted to that. I guess I can use any advice on this whole situation, as I'm wanting our relationship to be stronger..


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Has she quit her job? You know what she's been doing and how her hanging and working with drunks has screwed everything up. Yo have to be strong and demand no contact with these people. If she refuses make her leave. Tell her parents what she is doing.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Chances are you are being trickle truthed and there is a lot more to the story. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. My STBXW allowed me to believe that her affair (which I discovered in 2010) was just an EA. For almost 3 years she allowed me to believe that the EA was just talking about "life, marriage, etc". Just before we separated (Sept/Oct 2012) she disclosed that they would sext each other - descriptions of what they wanted to do to each other. 2 weeks AFTER she moved out - she admitted that they had a PA in Summer 2009. I suspect that the EA started with texting in 2008, moved to sexting - might have even involved sending pictures, and finally culminated in a PA which lasted 4 months.

My point is, my wife - who I once described as the most honest person I know, deliberately deceived me for over 3 years. And she did it expertly, like she had been lying her entire life. I still cannot believe the lies she told me and the how she put me and our children at a lower priority than her affair.

Affair fog does weird things to a WS's brain. It changes them completely. If you suspect something more, I would recommend that you listen to your own feelings.  If you feel she is not telling the FULL truth, chances are she isn't. Also keep in mind, a WS doesn't believe that trickle truthing is lying. They are telling the truth, just not all of it. Don't try to nice your way back. And do NOT feel guilty for getting angry about her betrayal. You have every right to feel angry.

Again, hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

She's refused to quit her job as she enjoys it and she make's ok money doing it. I've been constantly stating to her how I hate her job and basically told her today that since we can't even spend our 5-year engagement anniversary together I'm again not very happy. She's working tonight.. I proposed to her 5 years ago at the stroke of midnight. I can't control her schedule, so I do want her to quit.. but at the same time, she's troubled us financially so we need to dig out of that hole too. She quits there and we can not put any extra towards the debt for quite a while. So, I'm kind of stuck myself as to whether I really want her to quit or just try deal with it for now while we heal some more. I honestly think our communication has grown ten-fold and I'm not as afraid to confront her, and she has been really nice lately. Almost too nice though... kind of worries me that she's over-compensating for mistakes. 

She has cut contact with her ex, so I think that was the step she needed to take to make me feel better about the situation, but I feel the urge to know what exactly happened.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

DavidW said:


> I was "the best husband" a women could ever have, there for our children, cleaned, cooked, had a great job, and paid attention to my wife's needs.
> 
> *No, you were not the best husband, rather the ultimate beta husband(in her eyes of course). *
> 
> ...


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

DavidW said:


> She's refused to quit her job as she *enjoys it* and she make's ok money doing it.


I'm sure she does.

She probably makes a few extra bucks doing favors behind the counter.


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

keko said:


> I'm sure she does.
> 
> She probably makes a few extra bucks doing favors behind the counter.


Well, considering most of my friends work there with her, I think she wouldn't go behind the counter, lol. But, it does facilitate her ability to be secretive about meeting with people if she really wanted to, so I get your point


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

if it tells you anything...i dont think i text my wife 1000 times in a month.
in my wifes heyday with her OM, she would text him 1-2000 times a month.
take that how you will.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

DavidW said:


> Well, considering most of my friends work there with her, I think she wouldn't go behind the counter, lol. But, it does facilitate her ability to be secretive about meeting with people if she really wanted to, so I get your point


She has a job where there are is lot of drinking, partying, gambling, drinking after work with "friends". She has addiction problems.

You work different shifts. You let her work where even ugly girls get hit on by drunk men. The list goes on and on.

There is no way to make this work out unless you both want it enough. Neither of you really do. A blind man could see, hear , smell whats going on here. 

* If you are lucky, she has only been banging one man*

You are asking the impossible here. And you aren't even close to being the only one to come here with a wife that works in a bar. Google infidelity statistics and see for yourself where people that work at bars end up.


You have to be strong or give up this insane idea of what a marriage can withstand.

Have you ever asked her how much money some of the dirtbag drunks have offered her? And she has lots of debts, a little extra money would help a lot no?


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

David your marriage is in very serious trouble. 

If you "work it out" without knowing what it is you're "working out" it will be a sham. It's called 'rug sweeping' 

You and especially your wife, want to sweep this whole "thing" under the rug and forget about it. Once YOU do that without finding out everything that happened you have given her permission to do whatever she wants.

Next time you get suspicious she's going to say "David, gaddammit! you're acting crazy again. Didn't we settle this last time. Get a life and leave me alone!"

I said your marriage was in trouble because she is not only having sex with someone else (at least with the xBF for sure - probably others) but she's also bad mouthing you (yes I believe - and you should too - the guy in the bar)

This is a very bad sign because she's not content in sexing someone else, she's forming a bond with them. You are nothing to her (in her little bar world) She has a whole other persona there. Where she's a cool, hard-bodied, single girl. She gets drunk there with her friends. They cover for her and make excuses to you. She has a whole set of 'single girls when at the bar' gang she loves. 

It's odd she took condoms because affair sex is usually bareback. That's the way OM like it. 

Look at the newbie thread at the top of the CWI page. There are things you need to do. l

Snooping is the first. Pretend you don't have any issues with her. Be cordial but start gathering info. You have a chance to save your marriage but you are going to have to do it all. 

Oh, she got you to play the game so you would not hassle her. I'll bet anything she got that tip from one of her toxic girl friends. Oh how they must have giggled when she told them you fell for it and she was "scolding you" for playing. 

Be smart. Stay sober. Watch out for your kids. Gather evidence.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

David I forgot to state the obvious. It's still going on. But she may take it underground (likely) or put it on hold for a week (less likely). If she starts being 'nice' wife again for a week you'll know it's on temporary hold. 

See the Welcome link Chap so kindly placed in his line. 
Read through this link to get ideas on gathering evidence. 

A VAR in her car is a must. 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...one-interested-evidence-gathering-thread.html


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks for all the advice! I read through the newbie thread and appreciate all that's been done to help those of us in this situation. I will do what I can to get her to fess up, though it will be harder now since she knows I just want to work things out. 

She has said I can read her texts whenever I feel the need, the phone account is in my name so I do have access to logs already. I care too much about my children to not forgive her, but I still think I'll be constantly back and forth with my emotions for a long time until I can get her to take more action to make this right. I agree, she needs to lose the job, and I need more solid proof though I think I have enough to be sure of what happened. I don't think she'll cave unless I have something concrete, but I'll keep digging... 

Should I confront the other guy too?


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

David 
_NO ONE said not to forgive. Not at all._ 

*YOU* have to ensure it's over. As much time as she's had with the ex and as long as it's gone on it is very, very likely it continues - but she will put it on hiatus. 

The fact that she won't give up the job is proof positive. The 'sex and wild life drug' is too powerful. She will probably be a good wife until you cool off. But she's got to be chompin a the bit to get release. 

Don't harass her any longer. Be civil - your kids are watching and may be worried. 

Don't yell or berate. But don't let it go. If you truly want to forgive *IT HAS TO BE OVER.*


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Affair Discussion Forum • View forum - D-Day - Dealing With The Experience Of Getting Caught

Go here to see how cheaters handle getting caught. Being especially nice to the betrayed spouse is on top of the list.


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

Wow, getting flooded with great advice. Looking at the evidence gathering thread now. Found a message from facebook from 2 years ago when she said the place she works is lame...lol. Kinda funny she works there now...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Is the other man married?


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

Fortunately but unfortunately not. He's actually pretty well known as a player and has had sex with multiple married women. I have had interactions with him before because he was an acquaintance, so I know him well enough that I know he's no saint.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

DavidW said:


> He's actually pretty well known as a player and has had sex with multiple married women. I have had interactions with him before because he was an acquaintance, so I know him well enough that I know he's no saint.


 Try to see him face to face when he is not expecting you. Take him aside and tell him that your wife claims that she only had sex with him one time before she felt guilty cheating on you and decided not to do it again. Tell him that you find the fact that they had sex only one time hard to believe and that you wanted to hear the truth from him about this. Then look him in the eye and ask him "since she has been married to me, did you have sex with my wife more than once?" Ask this question and shut up. Do not say another word even if the time that passes in silence makes you uncomfortable. The first one that speaks loses. If you cannot see him face to face very soon, then do this over the phone. If he agrees that they had sex but only once, then you have your proof that she cheated with full on sex at least once. Once is enough.

Asking a leading closing question and then saying nothing until they answer it is a proven sales trick that is taught in sales training because it works. The key is to practice the question so that you can deliver it smooth and concise and to not say anything after asking it.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

DavidW said:


> She told me not to bring it up anymore so we can get over it, because she 'told me everything'. Well, ..


This doesn't work, I've been there and it is the worst thing you guys can do in the marriage.

I swept it under the rug and my old lady went straight for a few years but was back at it again with some other POS. I was so hurt. The next OM and the next OM and then the next OM I just stopped giving sh1t, and as long as I got mine and got it first ..(let OM have seconds) I just stopped caring about my old lady.

My point is until she owns this, faces it and is up front and in your face about how broken she is and address *her* issues, then she will never learn the tools to affair proof her marriage.

This isn't about you or the marrriage this is about your chick having some phucked up issues that makes her the way she is, and until she checks her own crap she will be a repeat offender.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Hell I think Bandit45 had a wife that went 18 years before she cheated again........

Again the point is WW has the capacity and need to look with in them selves to figure out why and more inportant how to prevent it... Just like how I adressed my issues and learned the tools to stop fighting and hitting poeple, even the ones I loved.

Your chick need to figure out how to stop hurting the ones she loves before she loses them!!!!!!!!


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

David 
One of the tools that is very effective in ending an affair and snapping the wayward spouse back to the real world is the sincere and real threat of divorce. 

Sometimes the threat has to extend to service of divorce papers, even if they are not the actual intention of the betrayed spouse. 

It's not time for that yet but it is a tool that you should not reject out of hand. It's like having a hammer available to drive a nail but refusing to use it for the noise it makes. 

Read some of the thread here. Read the first post and see if the situation is anywhere near yours (many are - they are remarkably similar) and then browse the suggestions. See what the outcome was. 

You can't relax and hope everything works itself out and that your wife 'sees the light'. She may pretend she does but don't buy that. Not at this juncture. 

You will know you're getting close to getting her to snap back into the marriage when SHE admits that the work environment is unhealthy (as she once knew it was) and leaves that AND her toxic friends. 

At the moment you are working to help her out with her figuratively kicking and screaming, her boyfriend beckoning her, her toxic friends encouraging her, and her work environment providing all the cover she needs. So you have to step up and be the man and leader your family needs if it is to survive.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

If you want to find out what your wife is up to, and has been up to, buy a voice-activated recorder and some heavy-duty velcro and put it under the front seat of her car.

Also put one in the house where she is likely to talk on the phone.

I guarantee she is confiding in her toxic friends when you are not around, if not maintaining contact with her ex-boyfriend or others.

Give it a week, you will have your answers.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

MISSING CONDOMS.

Telling friends that you and her ex-boyfriend can't be in the same place.

Speaking ill of you to her friends, not caring who hears it.

Telling you she is going out to celebrate her birthday without you, then telling her ex-boyfriend that he better be there.

SHE IS PURSUING HIM.

Gave you the _I love you but I'm not "in love" with you_ speech.

HOW DO YOU KNOW SHE ENDED CONTACT? Please don't tell me because you don't see any more calls/texts on the call log. Or even worse because she told you so. Ever heard of burner phones? Or calling/texting apps that show only as data usage, not as calls/texts on the call log?

She is a married mother. Yet she likes working the 4 pm to 2 am shift? She likes waiting on other people between 4 pm and 2 am six nights out of seven? You asked her to quit and she refused? CAN YOU EVEN SEE HOW RIDICULOUS THIS LOOKS?

HER JOB AND HER LOVE LIFE ARE ONE AND THE SAME. That is why she doesn't want to quit. It is her means to meet her lover. She has befriended a lot of single people and cheaters and is enjoying the single/cheating lifestyle.

She is a married mother. Yet has been passed out drunk at least two times in the past three months?

And you are letting this continue because? You lack proof?

Refer to the beginning of this post.

This comes courtesy of another poster, carmen ohio. Most of it applies directly to you as well:

_Based on the facts as you have recited them, I believe you have ample reason to be unhappy in your current circumstances and sufficient justification for taking action. So let me offer you an alternative approach to your problem that is consistent with the Rules of Happiness:

1. Sit your W down and tell her that you are so unhappy with your marriage that you are prepared to end it. Explain that, given what you know (OM's note, her hiding her phone messages, etc.), you can only conclude that either she is having an affair or that she doesn't care about you (as these are the only two reasons why she would not have taken steps to address your concerns when you first raised them). Say that, in either case, you would rather end your marriage than continue it since you deserve and are confident that you can have better than what you have right now.

2. Tell her that, out of love for her and your children, you are willing to give her one last chance to save her marriage and prove to you that she is a worthy wife. This requires her telling you everything that has happened between her and her boss, showing you all of her e-mails and text messages, giving you access to all of her communications in the future, immediately terminating all contact with her boss, demonstrating by word and deed on a daily basis that she loves and respects you and doing whatever else you require for her to prove her worth.

3. Tell her that it is her choice whether to do these things or not but, if she chooses not to, you plan to hire an attorney and file for divorce.

4. Stay calm and collected and don't argue with her. If she questions or challenges anything you say, calmly reply that she now knows what you expect of her and it is up to her to decide what she wants to do. Repeat your message as many times as necessary until she realizes that you mean what you say.

5. Give her a very short period of time to consider this. For example, tell her that you plan to speak to an attorney the next day so, if she wants to save her marriage, she has but a few hours to accept your offer.

6. If she refuses, immediately speak to an attorney and commence divorce proceedings.

7. If she agrees, continue to monitor her closely to make sure she does not go underground. Don't tolerate her complaining or pouting for more than a couple of days. If you get any indication that she is not serious about following through with her promise, start divorce proceedings.

8. For the foreseeable future, be cordial toward your W but nothing more. Don't initiate conversations, compliment her, argue with her or do anything else that would lead her to believe that she is anything special to you. Act at all times like a man who knows what he wants and knows that he can get what he wants, if not from her, then somewhere else.

9. Begin to take steps to improve yourself (exercise, work, activities). Make this -- along with your kids -- the focus of your life for now.

10. Start to educate yourself on what it takes to be a man in the 21st century. A good place to start is to read "The Married Man Sex Life Primer" by Athol Kay.

If you take these steps, I can't guarantee that you will end up in a happy marriage with your current W but I can promise that, eventually, you will give yourself the greatest chance of finding true happiness. The key point is that you can't control your W but you can control you. Hence, you should be doing the things that will eventually make you happy, whether your W wants to be with you or not.

I'm not saying any of this will be easy; it may be the hardest thing you will ever have to do. But unless you do it, your life will likely only get worse.

Wishing the best for you.​_


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## martyc47 (Oct 20, 2011)

Just based on what I've read, to me it seems like there are major maturity issues for both spouses. Husband lacks the maturity and alpha to deal with the drunken bar ho of a wife. So the wife just does what she does.

Of course she told people he was such a "great husband"- because he lets her be a middle-aged drunken bar chick without consequence.

What's the deal with all the relationships revolving around a BAR? Wife works there and refuses to leave.. Friends work there, too? Where are the 2 kids when Mom is passed out drunk and Dad is hanging out with the bar buds?

I'm around the same age, and I have 2 kids, and I can't imagine so much of my life ( as a married father) revolving around some bar. I know people need jobs, but working at a bar is not something in any way meaningful, especially not worth choosing over family. I think it's reasonable to force the wife into a decision, whether she wants to be a wife and mother, or just some aging bar chick in a dead-end lifestyle. And maybe husband needs to do some growing up, too- find some better friends, be less of a doormat for low women, etc.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

You are rug sweeping the A. She is in damage control and ****ing your brain out with sex and being nice, this is the best tactics WWs use to calm the husbands when they are caught. Your case is also same.

She is not remorseful so she is not ready for a R.

Expose her to all, Get tested for STDs ask her for the same, Ask her for complete transparency and NC letter.

Set your boundaries and play the game accordingly, she lost her say in the marriage when she choose to cheat.

Prepare your self to loose her if you want her back. *Make it clear to her that you want this marriage to work docent mean you agreed to be a cuckold husband. *
Man Up, Man Up, Man Up, dont sit passive.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/63749-hello.html

Hey Dave here is another bartender chick thread. You will notice her husband had to play tough.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

chapparal said:


> Affair Discussion Forum • View forum - D-Day - Dealing With The Experience Of Getting Caught
> 
> Go here to see how cheaters handle getting caught. Being especially nice to the betrayed spouse is on top of the list.


Wow. The few posts i read on there are so sad. Sad and pathetic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

David, 

Your wife is cheating with the exBF. She's been doing for a while. they've had sex. That sexy costume, not only did she send him pics of it , she bought it 100% with him in mind, and she no doubt has worn it for him when they've met up and had sex.

He's not gone btw - you're wife likely either is using a texting app on her phone that you can't track such as IM or skype or one of the many cheating apps, OR, she's gotten a burner phone to use to contact him..

Think back - each time she's push you off to go out without you, or an GNO she is likley to have gone out and had sex with the OM, and she's in going to keep doing it. You've confronted her, and she's gotten defensive, she's gotten mad etc - she hasn't agreed to stop has she? 

Confronting the OM won't help because he doesn't care. He knows your wife is going to find a way to hookup with him regardless of what you want or what you say.

That doesn't mean you can't run him off - expose the affair and him as part of it and you will get him to dump your wife.

#1 - Post the OM on cheaterville.com today. He's clearly having sex with your wife, and she's encouraging it. expose it.

#2 No more nights out for her - she's done with that. Time for her to focus on the marriage OR leave. Yes that sounds harsh, but the opposite is she continues to cheat until she's ready to leave and that sounds like it's very soon. I think you may only be around right now as a baby sitter so she can go out and party.

#3 - your wife is an alcoholic. she needs treatment for that. You say she's had a gambilng addiction - she has an addictive personality. Gambling, alcohol, let me guess smoker too? BTW Affairs/cheating is also an addictive behavior. the cheating gives her a nice dopamine hit, the same as she gets from gambling.

#4 she needs treatment for her addictive personality and behavior. 

#5 she needs to be away from that job. that's no place for someone with her addictive personality. There is no hope while she's in a environment like that.


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

DavidW said:


> She has cut contact with her ex, so I think that was the step she needed to take to make me feel better about the situation, but I feel the urge to know what exactly happened.


This won't last long, she won't give up on her ex that easy.

You have to play hard ball and don't drop your guard with her, you are a long way from resolving this no matter how she seems to be reacting at first.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Throw her out and go see a lawyer. It is the only thing that works. Work on yourself to find out why you allow yourself to be treated like this.

Do not play games.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Planting a VAR (voice activated recorder) under her car seat with some velcrow tape will give you the information you need for the next step here.

The information you gather will surely confirm her commitment and respect she has for you and this marriage.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

martyc47 said:


> Of course she told people he was such a "great husband"- because he lets her be a middle-aged drunken bar chick without consequence.


:rofl:

Martyc47, I agree with most of your post BUT she's 32 and that's nowhere near middle-aged.


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## martyc47 (Oct 20, 2011)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Martyc47, I agree with most of your post BUT she's 32 and that's nowhere near middle-aged.


I don't know about that. There was another poster here who classified young adulthood as 12-25, and 25-something as middle-aged.

I know if you are middle-aged, you don't want to hear it because it sounds like someone is calling you "old," but I don't use it in a negative/mean way.

I just mean if you are 30+ and married with kids you are NOT some kid or teenage party girl, or careless college kid ( even though many adults attend college). If you are 30+ with a family you are an aging adult. 

I see a lot of 30+ women ( not being sexist, just what I see) who wish they were teenagers, but they are not. This is my age group.

Personally, I don't care if individuals choose to act like teenagers when they are pushing middle-age if that's the lifestyle they choose, but it doesn't work for having a family. If you want to be a barfly, don't get married and have kids. This isn't a case of Mom and Dad going out and having fun without the kids sometimes- this is a lifestyle decision. There are priorities in life and certain things ARE mutually exclusive. One can't "have it all" if "having it all" means acting as both a swinging single and a married parent at the same time. Too many supposed adults expect to live the single life while being married, have a job and money without responsibility, and parent only when convenient.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Not to pick nits but if a woman's life expectancy is 80 then the halfway or midpoint is 40 - not 32.


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## committedwife (Dec 12, 2011)

DavidW said:


> Well, considering most of my friends work there with her, I think she wouldn't go behind the counter, lol. But, it does facilitate her ability to be secretive about meeting with people if she really wanted to, so I get your point


Most of your friends work there, and you're STILL in this situation? :scratchhead:

Don't count on your friends.

She needs to quit that job.


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## committedwife (Dec 12, 2011)

DavidW said:


> She quits there and we can not put any extra towards the debt for quite a while.


Do you want your marriage, or not? It's more important that she work to pay the bills? Her [email protected] needs to be gone from that job, NOW. 

Only if you want to save your marriage. Your call.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Has David left the building?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

chapparal said:


> Has David left the building?


Elvis has left the building


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Guy's who think it's okay for the W to work in a bar are probably not going to be able to withstand the shock of reality that is ladled forth in CWI.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Guy's who think it's okay for the W to work in a bar are probably not going to be able to withstand the shock of reality that is ladled forth in CWI.


Especially when their wives start going to Haloween parties in sexy costumes without them!


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## martyc47 (Oct 20, 2011)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Not to pick nits but if a woman's life expectancy is 80 then the halfway or midpoint is 40 - not 32.


OK. Then maybe women should wait til 50 to have kids, since increased life expectancy has extended the adolescent years to the 30s and the young adult years to 40s.

For some reason I don't think fertility and menopause have been delayed to keep pace with the life extension.

Just because one lives longer does not mean one is Young for a longer period of time. Maybe it just means she gets to be old for a longer time rather than dying soon after reaching old age.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

David, your wife is a cheat and a drunk drunk who works in a bar and gambles away money so that you're in debt out the wazoo, BUT you can't afford for her to quit her job?

Did I miss anything?


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

Haven't left folks, just soaking it all in and taking advice seriously. Here are my next steps and things I have done this past day or so. 

Today, I told her we have considered divorce twice in one year since she started working there and both problems began because of her job. I stayed silent and let her process it. She pormised she wants to quit, and I asked her 'When? Now or you gonna hope something else doesn't happen between now and your exit from there, because next time it's curtains and we are done.' So we are working on an exit plan tonight. Her degree is useless right now because the career she chose got pretty much wiped out (medical transcription) with voice recognition software. So, we are deciding what's next, but she agree's she wants to leave there. My goal for that conversation is to not back down and basically tell her this decision will impact us forever, so it must be done or it's gonna be over.

She also admitted fully to the EA. Now the question is how far did it really go. I had to drag it out of her so what really happened? I've been looking into software to recover deleted texts to get the real answer, and also finding the best VAR. No matter what happens with her job, trusting her to just stop living a seperate life is not gonna be easy, so I will need to continue monitoring the situation. 

Trust me folks, I'm not gone 

I will continue to read and take advice here seriously. I already feel like it's helped push things in the right direction and made me realize I never force the issue. I was a wimp... no doubt, and I let this happen just as much as she has, because of my inaction.

I did however threaten divorce on Nov 17th (the night I was told about the bad mouthing), that's kind of the turning point when things started looking better for us, but still not everything had been discovered, but the 1000+ texts had been and was given to her as a reason for me wanting to leave her. She did make an effort and the things I'm finding out all happened before then. I'm letting her know the struggle to prevent divorce is not over, it's only begun.


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

committedwife said:


> Do you want your marriage, or not? It's more important that she work to pay the bills? Her [email protected] needs to be gone from that job, NOW.
> 
> Only if you want to save your marriage. Your call.


Agreed! She's gotta quit.... I'm letting her think it's her decision but im obviously giving her the ultimatum with it. Letting her know that she can't expect us to survive if she stays.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Okay, if you're going to give her another chance, you've go to monitor her without her knowing about it or tell her up front that you're going to be monitoring her phone and computer action. Either way, don't tell her about the VAR velcroed to the bottom of her car seat.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Sexy costumes aren't for EAs.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Sexy costumes aren't for EAs.


:iagree:

If she admitted to an EA it was damn sure a PA.


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> :iagree:
> 
> If she admitted to an EA it was damn sure a PA.


...and as much as I want to deny that, I can't help but believe your right. I asked her "With all that sexual tension, when you saw him out, what stopped it from going further?"

Her answer "My concious wouldn't let me do anything with him."

Me: "You had no concious, you pushed me and your children away just to be this other person. You viewed yourself as a different person, and now you expect me to believe, after 3 months of straight out lies, that this was all it was. The truth ALWAYS comes out, so I would hope, if you really want to save this marraige, that you let it all out now, before I find out the hard way."

Her: "I know I f***d up and I'm so sorry for hurting you! But I promise you it never went farther than the texting."

Me: "You do know I work an IT job and we have access to a lot of things, so don't keep playing this game where you slowly tell me bits and pieces of information of what you think I know, because I already know more than what your telling me. So, what all happened, what kind of texts did you send? What aren't you telling me?"

Her: *Silence for about 30 seconds* "It was just..... things like if I were to leave you, I would date him."

Me: "This is hopeless, you are so afraid to tell me the truth that I don't know if we'll ever fix this. I gotta get back to work. Find your d*** concious!"


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Good start. Don't get emotional when discussing & don't be afraid to let scilence rule as you wait for answers. Ask what you want to know, state your position. Wait. Looking her in the eye.

Keep digging. She still working @ the bar? She gets support from like-minded friends. Unraveling your progress.


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Okay, if you're going to give her another chance, you've go to monitor her without her knowing about it or tell her up front that you're going to be monitoring her phone and computer action. Either way, don't tell her about the VAR velcroed to the bottom of her car seat.


I'm in limbo about this now... I really don't know if I can give her another chance but I want to badly. We are still going through D-Day's and I just don't know how long this is going to last like this. I'm pushing her with all my effort to just let it the heck out because I don't want to find out the hard way either. My mind, and heart, both agree, she did more than just 'sext' him. She even hid it from her friends there too. It was very sneaky how she was going about things and trying to pretend it was all a kosher friendship. The lies spread beyond our family, because she knew I had people in her workplace that would tell me everything if they saw it. Some suspected it and did tell me. Of course, there are some that know more, but are keeping quiet. Fortunately, those kind of secrets don't stay with one person very long in that environment, so it's pretty guaranteed the truth will make it's way through the ranks there too. She cut off contact with him a few months back on her own, so she says, but I've been looking for any alternative ways she could contact him. I already checked all her apps, checked every inch of the cars, looked at all the history on our computer from Skype, to AOL, to browser history and cache, temp files... on and on and I'm coming up empty. Used the FChat software to find deleted messages, and nothing there either. Only things she deleted were her messages ranting about me to her friends, trying to paint me as the bad guy, but nothing about him.


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

walkonmars said:


> Good start. Don't get emotional when discussing & don't be afraid to let scilence rule as you wait for answers. Ask what you want to know, state your position. Wait. Looking her in the eye.
> 
> Keep digging. She still working @ the bar? She gets support from like-minded friends. Unraveling your progress.


We looked yesterday for new jobs and she applied for a few, so the exit is in progress.


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## russ101 (Jan 8, 2010)

Ask her to take a polygraph. Tell her if she does, and passes it, you will drop the subject. See her response and if she agrees to it, follow through. Many will agree to it hoping you will never actually follow through with it, and will admit the affair to you on the way to take it. I know if I were in your shoes, thats what I would do. Good luck!


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Second that, polygraph.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

DavidW said:


> I'm in limbo about this now... I really don't know if I can give her another chance but I want to badly. We are still going through D-Day's and I just don't know how long this is going to last like this. I'm pushing her with all my effort to just let it the heck out because I don't want to find out the hard way either. My mind, and heart, both agree, she did more than just 'sext' him. She even hid it from her friends there too. It was very sneaky how she was going about things and trying to pretend it was all a kosher friendship. The lies spread beyond our family, because she knew I had people in her workplace that would tell me everything if they saw it. Some suspected it and did tell me. Of course, there are some that know more, but are keeping quiet. Fortunately, those kind of secrets don't stay with one person very long in that environment, so it's pretty guaranteed the truth will make it's way through the ranks there too. She cut off contact with him a few months back on her own, so she says, but I've been looking for any alternative ways she could contact him. I already checked all her apps, checked every inch of the cars, looked at all the history on our computer from Skype, to AOL, to browser history and cache, temp files... on and on and I'm coming up empty. Used the FChat software to find deleted messages, and nothing there either. Only things she deleted were her messages ranting about me to her friends, trying to paint me as the bad guy, but nothing about him.


David,

If you're serious about working through this then you need to be good at brinkmanship. You need to sit your wife down, keep your voice low and calm, and tell her that you've gone as far as you're willing to go without the whole story. The she has exactly one chance, right that moment, to give you chapter and verse. Every ****ty, heartbreaking detail. You want copies of any emails or other non-SMS communication that she's had. Tell her if you don't get that right then, you're calling a lawyer, filing the D, and she can begin finding other living arrangements. That's really the only way you're going to get the story on your terms.

- JM


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

JMGrey said:


> David,
> 
> If you're serious about working through this then you need to be good a brinkmanship. You need to sit your wife down, keep your voice low and calm, and tell her that you've gone as far as you're willing to go without the whole story. The she has exactly one change, right that moment, to give you chapter and verse. Every ****ty, heartbreaking detail. You want copies of any emails or other non-SMS communication that she's had. Tell her if you don't get that right then, you're calling a lawyer, filing the D, and she can begin finding other living arrangements. That's really the only way you're going to get the story on your terms.
> 
> - JM


and honestly, you likely wont get it then.
so be prepared to follow through with whatever you tell her when you find out that you didnt, or you lose your credibility and leverage and *presto* welcome to where i was last april.


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

JMGrey said:


> David,
> 
> If you're serious about working through this then you need to be good at brinkmanship. You need to sit your wife down, keep your voice low and calm, and tell her that you've gone as far as you're willing to go without the whole story. The she has exactly one chance, right that moment, to give you chapter and verse. Every ****ty, heartbreaking detail. You want copies of any emails or other non-SMS communication that she's had. Tell her if you don't get that right then, you're calling a lawyer, filing the D, and she can begin finding other living arrangements. That's really the only way you're going to get the story on your terms.
> 
> - JM


After talking with my therapist today, telling her what I know, she basically asked me what it was I needed to know from her about the details. I told her, for one, I can't rebuild trust if I know she's still lieing, and two, I don't want to find out a year later once she isn't scared to tell me, that it got physical, because this will start all over, and I will be done. She then asked me if my wife knows I want to work this out, because if she knows, then there is no way I'm going to get it all out of her. After talking with my wife this morning, she's fearing divorce. She told me she wanted to have sex with him, and they did meet out with friends but never had the opportunity to be alone. Honestly, all I need to know is she wanted to and that was enough for me to know I need to get checked for STD's, because there was nothing stopping her from doing the dirty. What was in her mind was enough for me to consider it more than just an EA. It wasn't just teasing and flirting building up, it built up already. 

She has agreed to write a NC letter, and also tell her family and friends what she was doing wrong, as well as quit her job. I will inform her that a polygraph is a must if she really wants to prove to me she is not lieing. She is coming with me to couples therapy next week.

I'm giving her a set of boundries of my "Must have" and "Must not haves", and letting her know if they get crossed, I will contact the lawyer and begin divorce proceedings. This is no longer a game to be played, to see how far she can go before she gets caught, any indication of a red flag will be enough for me to end it all. I don't trust her, but I do love her. I don't have it in me to deal with this again.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

DavidW said:


> After talking with my therapist today, telling her what I know, she basically asked me what it was I needed to know from her about the details. I told her, for one, I can't rebuild trust if I know she's still lieing, and two, I don't want to find out a year later once she isn't scared to tell me, that it got physical, because this will start all over, and I will be done. She then asked me if my wife knows I want to work this out, because if she knows, then there is no way I'm going to get it all out of her. After talking with my wife this morning, she's fearing divorce. She told me she wanted to have sex with him, and they did meet out with friends but never had the opportunity to be alone. Honestly, all I need to know is she wanted to and that was enough for me to know I need to get checked for STD's, because there was nothing stopping her from doing the dirty. What was in her mind was enough for me to consider it more than just an EA. It wasn't just teasing and flirting building up, it built up already.
> 
> She has agreed to write a NC letter, and also tell her family and friends what she was doing wrong, as well as quit her job. I will inform her that a polygraph is a must if she really wants to prove to me she is not lieing. She is coming with me to couples therapy next week.
> 
> I'm giving her a set of boundries of my "Must have" and "Must not haves", and letting her know if they get crossed, I will contact the lawyer and begin divorce proceedings. This is no longer a game to be played, to see how far she can go before she gets caught, any indication of a red flag will be enough for me to end it all. I don't trust her, but I do love her. I don't have it in me to deal with this again.


It's all well in good about boundaries and what-not, but if you allow her to rug-sweep this situation without knowing absolutely everything, you will be back here in 6 - 8 months if not sooner. Past transparency is just as necessary and non-negotiable as future transparency when approaching reconciliation.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

David,

"She told me she wanted to have sex with him, and they did meet out with friends but never had the opportunity to be alone"

Sorry but that had to hurt.

Definitely go with the polygraph as soon as you can. Schedule it today. Her statement about wanting to have sex with this guy is very telling


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Is this other guy married or has a girlfriend? I would out his @ss today too I know ww is your main problem but WTH he should face some consequences.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

DavidW said:


> After talking with my therapist today, telling her what I know, she basically asked me what it was I needed to know from her about the details. I told her, for one, I can't rebuild trust if I know she's still lieing, and two, I don't want to find out a year later once she isn't scared to tell me, that it got physical, because this will start all over, and I will be done. She then asked me if my wife knows I want to work this out, because if she knows, then there is no way I'm going to get it all out of her. After talking with my wife this morning, she's fearing divorce. She told me she wanted to have sex with him, and they did meet out with friends but never had the opportunity to be alone. Honestly, all I need to know is she wanted to and that was enough for me to know I need to get checked for STD's, because there was nothing stopping her from doing the dirty. What was in her mind was enough for me to consider it more than just an EA. It wasn't just teasing and flirting building up, it built up already.
> 
> She has agreed to write a NC letter, and also tell her family and friends what she was doing wrong, as well as quit her job. I will inform her that a polygraph is a must if she really wants to prove to me she is not lieing. She is coming with me to couples therapy next week.
> 
> I'm giving her a set of boundries of my "Must have" and "Must not haves", and l*etting her know if they get crossed, I will contact the lawyer and begin divorce proceedings.* This is no longer a game to be played, to see how far she can go before she gets caught, any indication of a red flag will be enough for me to end it all. I don't trust her, but I do love her. I don't have it in me to deal with this again.


Dear DavidW,

While you've done better than most guys who come to TAM for help, you still missed the most important thing -- to get your wife to fess up and start flying right, you need to ACT rather than merely THREATEN TO ACT. Until you actually do something that proves there are consequences for her infidelity and deception, your wife has no real incentive to confess and fix her marriage.

My advice is to go see an attorney and ask him to start drawing up the divorce papers. Then, and only then, tell your wife what you've done and say that, if she wants you to even think about stopping the proceedings, she must come totally clean with you about what she's done and agree to a polygraph test. Tell her that, if she does this, and if you believe that she is really remorseful and prepared to do the heavy lifting to fix your marriage, you will consider not going through with the divorce. But say that you're not going to make any quick decisions about that: she will have to really prove herself first, prove that she's being honest and prove that she can be a good wife.

Tell her this in as matter-a-fact manner as you can, displaying no emotion, neither anger or anguish. Don't argue with her. Tell her it's her decision now, you've already made yours, and leave the room.

One other thing. You say that she has agreed to quit her job. Well why hasn't she? More importantly, why haven't you insisted that she quit, not next week, not when she finds a new job, but today? Again, you are not really doing anything, you're just talking.

If you do this, you will present her with a REAL choice of outcomes. Until you do this (or something else that sends her a clear message that you are prepared to walk away, instead of just words to that effect), she will continue to play games with and trickle truth you.

Here's the thing. You said in your original post that you want a strong relationship with your wife. Well then, be a strong husband. Strong husbands don't threaten to leave if their wives doesn't give them what they want. They just leave.

Good luck.


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

A polygraph in my city is $550... she might think I'm bluffing but I made up a list of 10 questions that are straightforward, to the point, and ask exactly what happened. On the front the page, I wrote that if any of these questions come up as a lie, there is no way I could ever trust her again, and I'm leaving. I left a VM for a lawyer today as well...


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

Said this was her last shot for the truth... her marraige will rely on the truth to her statements. She admitted now to a kiss, and he grabbed her butt. They were alone once behind her work when she was leaving... damn trickle truth is such pain in the rear! 

She is going to put it in writing and we are scheduled for a poly...


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

DavidW said:


> Said this was her last shot for the truth... her marraige will rely on the truth to her statements. She admitted now to a kiss, and he grabbed her butt. They were alone once behind her work when she was leaving... damn trickle truth is such pain in the rear!
> 
> She is going to put it in writing and we are scheduled for a poly...


Bet you she'll be google-searching "how to cheat a polygraph" or other polygraph-accuracy related queries. Keep on the lookout for that. Watch her as you get closer to the date and even on the ride to the appointment...you may even get a last minute confession or 2 on the car ride there.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

David,

What you're experiencing here is the typical reaction of someone who has cheated. They will admit to something Usually something minor like "a" kiss) to hopefully throw you off the trail and sweep it under the rug

If you haven't done so already, do not tell her the exact questions you want asked and you may want to confer with the polygraph tester. They can figure out the best way to pose questions to get the most accurate response possible

Good luck and I hope for your sake it was just "a" kiss (and a butt grab)


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you gotten her texts.? You should be able to get them Rom her cell provider.


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

Hello David, Welcome to Hell. I see that your married my ex-wife's clone. You will NEVER get the truth from her, EVER! You are in a fog also, you do this to keep from going crazy. I know, I understand, it's probably for the best right now. You are going to have to plan on ending this "Marriage" on your terms or her's. It is going to end, I can guaranty it. Read the other posters here and learn from them. If you would like to leave this"Marriage" with your balls, file for Divorce Now and NEVER speak to her again. Just my 2 cents but, I have been in your spot. Sorry David W Young


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Many times, the forum here gets too emotionally involved. You do not need to rush things like everything needs to be done yesterday.

Yes she needs to find another job. If your finances are tight, make sure while she is still at the job she cannot cheat unless she is Houdini. 

This isn't going to be straightened out over night nor should it be. You need time to consider what is right for your family and you.

I did not think there was a chance she would give up her new "life". Evidently, I was wrong. You said you had a great marriage, and she thought you were a wonderful husband. She fell under an alchohol cloud. God knows how many husbands on this site wishes their situation was no worse than what yours apears to be.

Losing her famil and husband has knocked the wind out of her sails. 

Ponder long and hard about all the different outcomes. These are life changing decisions for not just you and your wife but your kids.

Find her a normal job where you can live together as a family should. It is a constant refrain here how different shifts, travelling, long hours and long disatnce destroies marriages. Basically its loneliness and the vacumn is filled sooner or later.

Have you read MMSL yet?


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Which questions will you be asking her?


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

chapparal said:


> Many times, the forum here gets too emotionally involved. You do not need to rush things like everything needs to be done yesterday.
> 
> Yes she needs to find another job. If your finances are tight, make sure while she is still at the job she cannot cheat unless she is Houdini.
> 
> ...


chapparal, im in tears right now as I read this because you are totally right and I know it. Her answers today match what I know of her and her habits. She got her high then fell away when she knew it would destroy things. But at the same time she WAS putting things on hiatus, and within the month of November realized she f'ed up and reconsidered. She did want to leave me... something turned her around, and maybe my reaction to our fights made her realize I was no slouch and I am the man she married. I don't know the full story, and believe she might be calling my bluff still, so I gotta stick to my guns. Maybe just putting the deposit down for a poly will make her see I'm serious. A VAR has got me nothing but her crying so far. I know she is remorseful and wants this to work, I just have to do things to make sure there is no cake.

What is MMSL? Sorry, learned a ton of acronyms the past few days and feel kinda ignorant still to a few. Thanks everyone for all your help!


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

The blog and buy the book ASAP. It will show you how this sh!t storm started and how to keep it from happening again.

Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.

BTW it is NOT a sex manual.


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

keko said:


> Which questions will you be asking her?


1) Did you kiss him? 

Answer: "Don't leave me!", "Once"

2) Did you touch him sexually?

Answer: "No"

3) Did he touch any of your private areas (boobs, butt, between legs)? 

Answer: "He grabbed my butt"

4) Did you show him any of those areas?
"No"

5) Did he show you his d***?

Answer: "No"

6) Have you tried to get him alone?

Answer: "No"

7) Did he try to get you alone?

Answer: "Yes, but I was at work."

8) Was there anyone else you 'sexted'?

Answer: "No"

9) Did you try and contact him since November any other way than by text or facebook?

Answer: "No"

10) Did anyone else know you were hiding this from me?

Answer: "No, he met me in the parking lot after work and no one saw us kiss, and he grabbed my butt as we kissed."

After that, I asked how she expected me to beleive all that sexual tension turned into one kiss and a grab of the butt.

Answer: "I did it for the thrill, and once I knew I could get what I wanted I backed away."


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

chapparal said:


> The blog and buy the book ASAP. It will show you how this sh!t storm started and how to keep it from happening again.
> 
> Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.
> 
> BTW it is NOT a sex manual.


We kinda have been going at it like rabbits... lol. I will buy it! Thanks!


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

MMSL is Married Man Sex Life

Its a blog, a book and a forum but it deals with so much more than just sex. It basically shows you what type of man a woman actually wants. Women want a strong man who takes no crap and leads the family. They don't want a man that is in touch with his emotions. They don't want a man who does what they tell him to do. They don't want a man that thinks but they want a man that acts. Basically everything Cosmo says that women want in a man is complete crap. Let me paste one of Athol Kay's latest blog posts that I think would be relevant to your situation.


What It Means When She Tells You She Kissed Another Man | Married Man Sex Life

What It Means When She Tells You She Kissed Another Man

December 29, 2012 By Athol Kay 37 Comments 


Most people are basically moral. Meaning faced with a moderate degree of temptation, they will still do the right thing anyway. There are some crappy people in the world that don’t ever experience temptation, because they have no moral compass and just do whatever they want all the time. Most people are moral… but not saints… everyone has their price where they become okay with doing evil.

For example, ask me to kill a kitten… and I’ll say no. I happen to like kittens. Ask me to kill a kitten for $100 and I’ll still say no. It’s just cruel to think about. $1000… ah… no. $1 million bucks to kill a kitten… and… well… how many dead kittens do you need?

So let’s consider how the morality sliding scale works with affairs. Let’s create a fake couple Anne and Alex and the third wheel Brad and watch the slide from White (morally good) to Black (full blown affair)

White – Anne and Brad know each other and nothing questionable is happening between them.

White/Grey – In this transition point, the first crossing of the line happens between Anne and Brad. Usually it’s simply a low key feeler thrown out from the guy to the girl. Something “non-serious” and easily disclaimed as an accident or no attempt to be offensive. Failure to knock the feeler back by the girl is implied acceptance of the advance to Grey.

Grey – This is the zone where Anne and Brad know that something inappropriate is happening between them, they don’t want Alex to find out about it, but it’s also reasoned as being ”just flirting”, “not cheating”, “harmless fun”. Except it’s not really any of those and is being kept secret. At this point it’s an emotional connection and not physical.

Grey/Black – Anne and Brad kiss. This marks the transition into the affair being more physical. It may not turn into sex with the first episode of kissing, but it can escalate very quickly to sex after the first kiss. It’s a major hurdle to cross.

Black - Anne and Brad are now in a full sexual relationship and there’s a huge desire to hide it from Alex.

The idea for Brad is to navigate Anne through the scale of white to black at a steady pace, without stalling in any of the areas for too long, but not so fast that she hits a moral limit she isn’t prepared to break just yet. So he shouldn’t stall out too long for going for the kiss, but also shouldn’t go from introductory flirting to asking her to suck his **** either. (Try not to think of me as just having given advice on how to seduce someone’s wife, and more explaining how they do it.)

Now from Anne’s point of view…

White – Nothing is inappropriate, I love Alex. Brad is okay.

White/Grey Rejects Brad – I love Alex, Brad was rude.

White/Grey Accepts Brad – I love Alex, Brad is funny.

Grey – I love Alex, but I’m falling in love with Brad.

Grey/Black Rejects Brad – I love Alex, I want Brad but I just can’t do this.

Grey/Black Accepts Brad – I love Alex, but when I’m with Brad I feel amazing, I can’t not do this.

Black – I love Alex, but it’s fading and I’m not in love with him. I’m in love with Brad and I’m starting to love him.

Importantly, if Anne rejects Brad at the White/Grey or Grey/Black transition points, there’s minimal chance she will tell Alex what happened. Most of the time he will never find out anything was happening. If it’s at the White/Grey line, there’s nothing to see and nothing to tell. If it’s at the Grey/Black line, all he’ll know is that she was a little distant there for a while, but then she stopped being a little distant. He quite possibly never notices anything was going on.

Far more interesting is if Anne tells Alex she’s been doing something inappropriate. This is always an ass backwards ultimatum and Fitness Test from her to him. It looks like a confession, but it’s far more than that…

Fitness Test angle first. Brad already knows about Alex, and has been making headway on Anne by indirect and stealthy means. So he does not want a confrontation with Alex. Alex however doesn’t know Brad is making headway on Anne, so he’s not paying particular attention to mate guarding Anne. So Alex is the sleeping Samurai, while Brad is the sneaking Ninja. So when Anne confesses to Alex something is happening with Brad, it’s like she suddenly flips the lights on and it’s all on…. Yo Samurai… there’s a Ninja…Why don’t you and him fight.

Whoever has the strongest overall male frame/presence will carry the day. If Alex turns into a spineless writhing blubbering weakling in front of Anne and weepingly begs her to come back to him… she’ll find a way to go back to Brad. If Alex suddenly reacts with controlled fury and seeks to defend what’s his, Ninja Brad will drop a smoke bomb and vanish.

Ultimatum angle second: Anne let Brad get as far as he did, because there was something lacking in Alex. Look I know that’s hard to hear, but it’s true. So not only does Alex have to puff up and scare Brad off, he’s also got to figure out what Anne is giving him an ultimatum about. She was prepared to risk the entire relationship by telling him about her thing with Brad. If she didn’t want to put the relationship on the line, she would NEVER have told him, she would have just broken it off with Brad.

The good news is that Anne does at least want to have a relationship with Alex… provided of course he fixes the problem.

The bad news is that when she told him about Brad, it was a fairly sanitized version of what really happened. Alex must always assume that worse things happened and find a way to divine the truth as best he can. If it was a case of she slept with Brad and then “gets away with it” by Alex taking her back without knowing, she’ll not respect him.

So Alex must immediately (1) get the other man out of the picture, (2) scare Anne half to death that he’ll possibly divorce her (she will fail to respect him unless he does that), (3) start fixing whatever structural weakness he has in holding Anne’s attraction.

And just to be clear, I’m not saying get in there and start trading punches… as tempting as that may be. I’m saying gather your information and find a way to get them not wanting to be together.


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

Wow, great read! Thanks for that. All these years I've avoided forums because they are flooded with trolls and people just trying to pass the time by sounding smart. I found a gem here!

All of you folks are awesome!


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

David, I want to warn you that you don't want to appear to be her warden. She made a mistake, appears to be contrite, while I understand the need for honesty, you have to be careful not to turn this into the Spanish Inquisition. I am not throwing stones, as it is easy to get the wrong impression in snippets of your day, but something for you to consider. It has always been my experience that if women feel secure around you that they will tell you lots of things. Best wishes to you and your family.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

VFW said:


> It has always been my experience that if women feel secure around you that they will tell you lots of things. Best wishes to you and your family.


Unless she's trying to hide something. Which she has been doing. Therein lies the rub.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Ask a couple of simple questions on the poly.

Did you have oral sex
Did you have intercourse with another man
Are you still contacting him


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

DavidW said:


> After that, I asked how she expected me to beleive all that sexual tension turned into one kiss and a grab of the butt.
> 
> Answer: "I did it for the thrill, and once I knew I could get what I wanted I backed away."


:bsflag: And that's a flag on the play.

How many people do you know that have experience the thrill of wanting the forbidden, know they can get it and back off because it's suddenly too easy. She thinks you're a sucker, me son.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

DavidW said:


> 1) Did you kiss him?
> 
> Answer: "Don't leave me!", "Once"
> 
> ...


Focus on yes or no questions.

Such as,

Have you always been faithful to me?

Have you had more then one affair?

Did you have sex with someone else while married to me?

Have you had sex with multiple guys while married to me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Make the questions non person specific. Not did she have sex with JoeBob, but has she had sex with anybody male or female.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Thor said:


> Make the questions non person specific. Not did she have sex with JoeBob, but has she had sex with anybody male or female.


Good idea. Do not ask questions which allow the WS to trickle truth their answers. WS's are great at telling the "truth" as it suits their conscience. 

Eg: Did you *sleep* with X? Answer: No, of course not!! (which could be true because they were too busy fcking to sleep)


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

Today, im just in a PO'd mood. No more confessions have been made but I have no desire to talk to her at the moment and feel like running out. We've had many nights of great sex and I'm starting to feel like I'm rewarding her behavior, though I feel the need to establish the alpha male role. Even when I'm joking and being nice, I look at her with cold eyes and show no emotion. Can't even laugh at my own sarcastic jokes when she is busting up. I feel pretty, well, blah. She's been trying to text me from work and I just don't feel like responding. I'm not sure whether I should swallow my fears and continue showing her the rock I am, or just give her a hint of emotion so she knows I'm not happy at all. 

Trying to keep her realizing she really f'ed up, but want to keep reminding her I am 'the man'. Am I rewarding her by being 'the man' right now?


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Don't base your actions on "rewarding" or "punishing" her. 
At this point it's about YOU. How you want to conduct yourself. What YOU expect from a marriage. The standards and principles YOU want to follow. 

Hold her accountable based on those desires.


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

walkonmars said:


> Don't base your actions on "rewarding" or "punishing" her.
> At this point it's about YOU. How you want to conduct yourself. What YOU expect from a marriage. The standards and principles YOU want to follow.
> 
> Hold her accountable based on those desires.


That's what my heart has been telling me to do the past few days. But my mind is telling me to quit being so dang nice to her because she'll start to take advantage and forget all that we've discussed and worked on to help resolve things. We had to discuss her job again today and that is what I think put me in a PO'd mood. She agreed with me again but I just feel like she's trying to convince herself from quitting. My last statement to her was:

"I wouldn't support giving you a drug if you were in rehab, I won't support it if you decide to stay in an environment infested with the drug you left me for." 

Doesn't matter right now to me that she agreed...I want her to want it without any more interference from me, because she knows what I want.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

DavidW said:


> Doesn't matter right now to me that she agreed..*.I want her to want it without any more interference from me*, because she knows what I want.


Very astute and absolutely correct. If she's doing it so you'll stop moping around (from her POV) then it could mean she doesn't see what she did as "harmful" just a little inappropriate. 

And as long as she continues to go to work and get the same message from her coworkers ("ahh, hun - it wasn't that big a deal - we all do it!") she will increase her resistance to leave the job. 

She has to see that this is very serious. Not just in your mind - it's a serious thing for a marriage that involves commitment.

BTW I loved your analogy to drug use - it is actually very appropriate - her brain chemistry is altered by the environment at the bar, by the attitude there, by her interactions there. No matter what her rational mind says, her brain will point another way. 

Keep up the exhausting work.


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks walkonmars, I think you are right in that right now she's not seeing the job as harmful, and thinks she can overcome something like this again should it pose itself in front of her. It is fact that it was her reaction and behavior to it all that was what is really harmful. Again, just like a drug addict rehabbing, they think they can overcome it but when its put in front of them, it's much harder than they thought it would be.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

DavidW said:


> Thanks walkonmars, I think you are right in that right now she's not seeing the job as harmful, and thinks she can overcome something like this again should it pose itself in front of her. It is fact that it was her reaction and behavior to it all that was what is really harmful. Again, just like a drug addict rehabbing, they think they can overcome it but when its put in front of them, it's much harder than they thought it would be.


Exactly so. People with addictions don't appreciate the danger of being in close proximity to the source of their addictions. Sometimes, just to prove a point to themselves, they'll even seek it out and end up where they started. The only treatment for an addiction is total and unremitting abstinence. My brother smokes and has tried repeatedly to quit, usually through step-down or some kind of nicotime supplement, and it never works. Meanwhile, I quit five years ago, cold-turkey, and haven't smoked since. So, there you have it.

What your wife needs to be made to understand is that she has already shown herself to be spectacularly without boundary or continence where the OM is concerned, and that they fate of your marriage and family should not be riding on something that is patently and historically so unreliable.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

DavidW said:


> Thanks walkonmars, I think you are right in that right now she's not seeing the job as harmful, and thinks she can overcome something like this again should it pose itself in front of her. It is fact that it was her reaction and behavior to it all that was what is really harmful. Again, just like a drug addict rehabbing, they think they can overcome it but when its put in front of them, it's much harder than they thought it would be.


Let me ask you this. If her job is such a roadblock why is she still working there? I don't understand the delay. Is it financial? Because I'm wondering how important the finances are if you divorce. What is the point of jointly working toward financial goals if there is no marriage to base it on? If the financial issues can be overcome why haven't you insisted she quit TODAY!? Are you worried about her response? Why should you care? You aren't the one that stepped outside the marital boundaries. She should be worried about your response to her working there. If you haven't conveyed you absolute needs in order to remain with her then maybe you need to start doing a better job of that. You don't have to insist in an angry way. You simply state your non negotiable conditions for continuing the marriage and then its her choice whether she wants to meet them or divorce.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

DavidW said:


> After talking with my therapist today, telling her what I know, she basically asked me what it was I needed to know from her about the details. I told her, for one, I can't rebuild trust if I know she's still lieing, and two, I don't want to find out a year later once she isn't scared to tell me, that it got physical, because this will start all over, and I will be done. She then asked me if my wife knows I want to work this out, because if she knows, then there is no way I'm going to get it all out of her. After talking with my wife this morning, she's fearing divorce. She told me she wanted to have sex with him, and they did meet out with friends but never had the opportunity to be alone. Honestly, all I need to know is she wanted to and that was enough for me to know I need to get checked for STD's, because there was nothing stopping her from doing the dirty. What was in her mind was enough for me to consider it more than just an EA. It wasn't just teasing and flirting building up, it built up already.
> 
> She has agreed to write a NC letter, and also tell her family and friends what she was doing wrong, as well as quit her job. I will inform her that a polygraph is a must if she really wants to prove to me she is not lieing. She is coming with me to couples therapy next week.
> 
> I'm giving her a set of boundries of my "Must have" and "Must not haves", and letting her know if they get crossed, I will contact the lawyer and begin divorce proceedings. This is no longer a game to be played, to see how far she can go before she gets caught, any indication of a red flag will be enough for me to end it all. I don't trust her, but I do love her. I don't have it in me to deal with this again.




What about the security guard who can tear it up ? There is possibility that your wife was being a bar wh*re


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

JMGrey said:


> :bsflag: And that's a flag on the play.
> 
> How many people do you know that have experience the thrill of wanting the forbidden, know they can get it and back off because it's suddenly too easy. She thinks you're a sucker, me son.


This is where im leaning. 
My wife told me that they kept at it because, essentially, "it was easy, fun and we could get away with it".
I would be VERY suspicious of her truthfulness after hearing this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

The missing condoms is a giant red flag, waving in the wind over top of the "I kissed him once" trickle-truth. It's in the context of erased text messages to an ex-bf and boatloads of other circumstantial evidence.

So they put the condoms over their heads when they kissed?

Staying at the same job is cake-eating, not an ability to "see". Is she retarded? No. Tending bar or waitressing at one is ideal hunting grounds for prospective mates because not only do you get to see crowds of eligible men on the prowl, but you get to deal with each and every one of them through serving - and where flirtatious behavior can be excused to the husband as being part of the job. Nobody is going to report her for being charming to customers.

But if she's working in an environment with only a handful of cohorts and where none of this is tolerated she's just lost dozens of potential contacts per day. 

The wise man would be banking on her breaking down before the polygraph with more trickle-truth and how you're going to handle that. She's trickle-truthed and held on to the job as a means of keeping both options as long as she can.

She figured telling the whole truth would lose you. Trickling it out will at least delay things and possibly even work, especially if you cancelled the polygraph. But in the meantime the best place to be for a soft landing is working at a place where she can meet dozens of eligible, salivating men each day and where all of them have to engage with her. Not that she is having affairs with all of them, but rather that one month on the job is a list of potentially a hundred or more prospective mates to hook up with when you leave her. 

So - what's your move when the next revelations come?


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

DavidW said:


> A polygraph in my city is $550......


*WOW...what a great deal!!!!...in relation to the cost of a divorce!*

Really, it's chump change for getting some truth


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

DavidW said:


> 1) Did you kiss him?
> 
> Answer: "Don't leave me!", "Once"
> 
> ...


Add "did you or he ever say I love you"

"During our courtship or after we married, did you ever kiss or have any type os sexual relations with any one else?"


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, 3 weeks later after the big D-Day and still not feeling all that great. The polygraph pretty much ended up confirming her story that there was never anything more than a kiss physically but the whole emotional part is what hurt the most anyway. I still find myself questioning what all really happened and if the polygraph was accurate and all. But I can't ignore that she is trying her hardest to make me happy, with an exception or two where she just 'forgets' I guess that I'm not really healed, and that I'm just trying not to feel the pain. 

I feel like a freaking loser though, like maybe I shouldn't be trying so hard for someone who doesn't deserve my love. When she is upset about my anger or frusteration, I just don't feel for her. Hell the other day I couldn't even tell her 'I love you' in the middle of the day while at work. She noticed and was upset of course, but I couldn't even convince myself that I should. I don't know if I'm just naturally slipping away and entering into some sort of guarded state from her, or what, but it doesn't feel like I'm forceing it, it's just happening and I'm letting myself roll with it. 

She's quit her job, began doing 50%+ of the housework, focusing on family time and has avoided going out altogether, found some common interests with me, just been there as I go through this, but sometimes I just don't want her there. It seems she breaks the barriers every night somehow though and we end up having some pretty good affectionate moments. Next morning, back to the same cycle where I start out hating my day ahead, hating my life, hating her, just all around angry, then slowly easing back and finding it isn't all so bad. It's a pretty normal thing now for me text her in the morning from work pissed off about how she deleted text messages from her phone 3 months ago to one of her friends to hide things. Followed by an apology in the afternoon for just being pissed but trying. Evenings with the kids ends up brightening up my day and I'm ready for bed. It's been that way for over a week now. Though I don't feel myself moving away from the thought of divorce, altogether. Sometimes, I just think it would just be best, but feel its so unfair to my children. I just can't seem to just let go when there is still hope I guess. Either way, I hope this helps someone going through the same thing someday, or gives me something to reflect back on when it all plays out.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

I dont feel sorry for my wife when i get angry, either. 
You shouldnt. But you will notice it gets less and less. The deleted texts and emails and stuff, that still gets me too. 
Heres the thing, at least she is putting in the effort. I tell myself when i have days like yours (and i still have them regularly six months later) is that she cant fix it if i dont let her. Its really as simple as that. I try to remind myself of where she is NOW, not where she was THEN. 
But it is difficult ar times, i wont lie. I have days just like you are talking about, where i just want to say FVCK IT, kids or not. But i keep that to myself. 
What i have done is give myself a solid time frame. Of one year. In a year, if we havent overcome the most serious of our hurdles, i will likely throw in the towel. 
In the meantime, i try as hard as i can (and as hard as i find appropriate) and appreciate what my wife does to fix/understand the situation. 
Good luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DavidW (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks naga, for your experience. I know you are right, that I have to let her work on it if she's really willing to. Sometimes the emotion of it all takes control and just kills me.


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