# Fear of poverty



## spk14 (Oct 22, 2010)

My girlfriend has expressed interest in someday being my wife, but the thought of our joint finances scares me. I currently am not married and am financially responsible only for myself. I have a fairly high income and very low living expenses. Because of this, I have personal savings and hopes of someday being a home owner. This encourages me to work hard and save my money. I do admit to being a bit cheap, but this is only because I am focused on having financial security, staying debt-free, and knowing that someday I'll own a house.

My girlfriend's personal fianances are the polar opposite of mine. She still lives at home with her parents because she cannot afford a place of her own. Her and I are roughly the same age (early adulthood). She has a very low earning potential and cannot even hold a part-time minimum-wage job. I would estimate her income potential at roughly $200 to $400 per month. Her living expenses are ridiculously high, and her parents are currently footing the bill. Her car insurance is $560 a month (where as mine is $60 a month). She has expensive medical needs in addition to a car note to pay. She is currently in debt, but if we were to be married, she would hopefully have that debt paid by the time we get married. By the time her car note is paid in full, she will likely be buying a new car. Now she is asking me to rent a 2-bedroom apartment (a more expensive apartment) so that she can live with me rent-free. This bothers me a bit.

When supporting only myself, I am able to put a significant amount of money in savings every month. When our joint incomes and living expenses are combined, we will be rougthly $200 in the hole. This is before having kids. If we have a kid, our savings will be depleted by roughly $800 per month. It will only be a matter of time before I have $100 to my name and it's the end of the month and our $800 rent is due. That's what scares me. I've worked too hard and have had to sacrifice too much for my financial stability. The thought of trading it for a life financial insecurity scares me. I would feel much more secure if I knew my girlfriend was willing and able to someday get a job, but that isn't the case. 

Her and I have come to a disagreement. She says I am obsessed with survival and that my viewpoint indicates I have a mental disorder and that I need to speak to a psychologist to get the counseling I need. I have a hard time accepting this and am convinced that it is possible for both a husband and wife to be able to keep a 'safety net' in the bank in case of an emergency. I will be very frustated if I am earning nearly all of our income while she is spending over 3/4 of our joint income and driving us into debt.

Please keep in mind this is MY perspective on the situation and that it is probably biased in my favor. Considering this, which of us is being irrational? Is it me who is being irrational? Do I need to just accept that marriage and poverty go hand-in-hand and that the concept of two working adults is false?


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

It should scare you. In my opinion, discuss it with her. You do not owe her financial security. For HER sake as well as yours, she needs to get out there and get financially secure herself. While she is at home is the time to knuckle down, get education if needs be, get out from under. Buy her a cope of Total Money Makeover for her next birthday. Not really.. but life is hard enough and true love is not going to eliminate the stress of financial insecurity. And... how will you ever REALLY know that she intends to do her share? You hardly have grounds to complain later when what always was continues to be.


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## spk14 (Oct 22, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> In my opinion, discuss it with her. .


I did discuss it with her. She said I have an anxiety disorder and that I need to see a psychologist. I can pull out a calculator and see our joint living expenses will exceed our joint income. That scares me. Does that mean I have an anxiety disorder? She knows my family lived in borderline poverty when I was a kid, and that's why I've done everything I can to avoid living in poverty as an adult. She says I put too much emphasis on money and that I shouldn't need any set amount in the bank to be happy. I know that if my expenses exceed my income and I have no control over it, I will be worried. I think it's a normal concern. Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe I'm being completely irrational. That's why I'm posting.


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## avenrandom (Sep 13, 2010)

I do not feel you are wrong or irrational at all. I am a saver, and my wife is a spender. Before we got married we talked about keeping joint accounts, but I've just recently had to put her on an "allowance" because she can't live within our income. When she got a job, she watched me pay off her car within 3 months, and still she doesn't see the value of saving. I strongly suggest taking a hard look at how much this matters to you. To me, I knew I loved her enough to watch my savings dwindle, but it's caused a lot of heartburn actually watching it happen.


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## Boker (Oct 13, 2010)

spk14 said:


> Please keep in mind this is MY perspective on the situation and that it is probably biased in my favor.


First off, thank you for mentioning that. Too few people on discussion forums take that into account.

By reading through your post it's obvious you spend a great deal of time thinking about money. I don't necessarily mean that in a negative way. You mention having a borderline-impoverished upbringing, the speed with which you can bring out a calculator, and the confidence with which you can work out a budget--single, married, and married-with-kids. I do feel you may be letting financial worries crowd out a bit of enjoyment in your life, but you are certainly responsible. We need more responsible people.

By reading through your post it's also obvious your girlfriend doesn't spend a great deal of time thinking about money--and this time I mean that in a negative way. She sounds like the typical modern child that is reaching adulthood in the 21st century. To put it bluntly, she sounds spoiled--very spoiled. She has no way of earning a living, she's in debt, and her parents are footing her bills. She has not been taught responsibility. Worse, she does not know she is irresponsible and thus won't be likely to make any changes soon. Even worse, she thinks she's actually right and that you, the responsible one, are wrong.

You asked if you were being irrational. No, you are not. Too many people live beyond their means. A $400 income minus $560 insurance minus rent minus food minus utilities = beyond one's means. People who can't make a success of life on their own are extremely unlikely to make a success of life when married, despite all protesting to the opposite. 

Your comment that she "cannot even hold a part-time minimum-wage job" is very worrisome. It either denotes a poor work ethic, a haughty attitude toward menial work, or an uncooperative attitude. Which one is it? And is that a quality someone would desire in a spouse?

Put it this way: Would she like you to quit your job, take on sporadic part-time work, buy a car with borrowed money and crash it a few times to get the insurance up, then suggest you both live at one of your parents' house? What would she feel about that? 

My guess is she's used to Daddy taking care of her and she's just looking for another "Daddy". I'm not going to go down this line of reasoning too far as it can get a little personal and uncomfortable, but I want you to think about what kind of woman is always looking for another "Daddy" and what that's liable to lead to in the future--both as a wife and potential mother. Enough said on my part.

You also asked if you "need to just accept that marriage and poverty go hand-in-hand and that the concept of two working adults is false?" The answer is: no and no. Most families in financial difficulty are there because of their own poor decisions and mismanagement. There are legitimate cases, but these are very rare. The old joke is: As people advance in their careers, their salaries attempt to catch their lifestyle. That joke would be hilarious for those few that get it, except they're crying too hard because they see the messed up lives of these very people all around them.

My wife and I live below our means. During the good times, we put away 50% of our salaries; now we're putting away about 30%. Our apartment is modest. Our clothes are not brand-name. We usually cook at home. We don't indulge in expensive entertainment, nor do we gamble, smoke, or drink excessively.

However, a lot of it comes down to society. When I first came to Taiwan almost 8 years ago, there was an article in the newspaper that has stuck with me ever since. It stated that the average American family saved just 4% annually--one of the lowest rates among developed countries. By contrast, the average Taiwanese family was saving something like 23%--not the highest, but one of the highest. The concern was that the rate for Taiwanese families was falling. You see, credit cards and living-beyond-one's-means are new concepts to Asian society. You sound more like a 23% kind of guy. I can't even say your girlfriend sounds like a 4% kind of person as she's more like a -50% kind of person. 

It _is_ possible for two working adults to make a success of their life. As a responsible person, it's your role to find that special working adult.

(Sorry if this post is a bit long but, judging from your writing and your thought process, you sound like someone who does a fair bit of reading.)


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## Brewster 59 (Jun 19, 2010)

So im going to put my 02 cents in here and you can think about it.

First point if you look at the #1 cause of divorce it is finances. Divorce is very expensive and if you look at her earning potential it is possible that you will be on the hook supporting her for a looong time. Especially if you have children. If you Marry her and your already not seeing eye to eye on financial matters it very well could be a recipe for disaster.

Point 2 you have long term goals and she is a hand to mouth kinda person so it sounds like your long term goals dont match up at all. Marriage will not make this better in fact it will get worse.

Point 3 if she isnt going to work, will she be a good housewife or will she just be a load for you to carry? Even if she would be a good housewife is that what you want? It sounds like you would be happier with a career woman with goals that match better to yours.

So that is what I have for you to chew and will end with these thoughts.

Is this a person you see spending the rest of your life with? Over 50% of all marriages end in divorce. If not run for the hills

Would your life be better with her or without her? Remember the feeling of being in love is temporary and when the euphoria of that wears off what you will be married to is her and her beliefs and habits.

People change so even if you think your life would be better with her that may change as well take a good look at the stories on this forum, a good one to read is HELP239 now this might never happen to you but again look at the statistics of the % of marriages that end in divorce and from what you say this relationship is already a bit rocky. 

Just some thoughts for you to mull over I wish you all the best.


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## Mal74 (Dec 24, 2009)

One of the things I like about this board is that by and large the folks who post here are polite. I try to be, but I'm not always very good at it.

So that's my warning for what comes next.

You need to end this relationship and move on to find someone with whom you are compatible. The woman you describe is looking for a meal ticket, and has latched on to you because you are making plans that demonstrate your capability of providing her a free ride. When you raise concerns about that, naturally her strategy is to attempt to manipulate you.

Get out. Marrying someone who will spend freely when your goal is to save, marrying someone who is debt-laden when your goal is to live debt free, both of these are prescriptions for disaster. Brewster 59 is dead-right: divorce is expensive. Being married to someone who is willing to ruin you in order to be comfortable is even worse. 

Just end it - the pain you go through today will be a lot less than what you'll face otherwise in 5 years, or 10.


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## 4sure (Aug 8, 2010)

Her problems and debt will become your problems and debt if you marry her. She will take until you are run into the ground. Then when you have nothing to give, and you are one step from poverty she will leave you saying, "you don't fulfill her needs." She wants to freeload off of you.

(redflag) $560 a month for insurance. Why? perhaps DUI, accidents.
Expensive medical needs? 

You seriously need to rethink this relationship.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

spk14 said:


> I did discuss it with her. She said I have an anxiety disorder and that I need to see a psychologist. I can pull out a calculator and see our joint living expenses will exceed our joint income. That scares me. Does that mean I have an anxiety disorder?


No. It means on one of the single most common stressors of a relationship, you two are WILDLY incompatible.



> She knows my family lived in borderline poverty when I was a kid, and that's why I've done everything I can to avoid living in poverty as an adult. She says I put too much emphasis on money and that I shouldn't need any set amount in the bank to be happy.


This is a GREAT opportunity for her to learn that she has an obligation to respect also what is important to YOU. If financial security is important to YOU, then it is. Period. And it seems the height of wisdom and maturity to me.

One question, is she consciously or subconsciously attempting to switch her freeloading from her parent(s) to you? 



> I know that if my expenses exceed my income and I have no control over it, I will be worried. I think it's a normal concern. Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe I'm being completely irrational. That's why I'm posting.


In my opinion, if you cannot get satisfaction that she is going to understand and accommodate your need for financial stability, move along. There are other fish in the sea. I see years of heartache and stress in your future before the relationship implodes anyway.


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## MotoDude (Sep 15, 2010)

Indeed you have put well thoughts into this and that put you as a responsible man. Like other have suggested, talk to her and if she doesn't get it, free yourself from her and catch another fish that suit you.

Dont married her.


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## MotoDude (Sep 15, 2010)

or move in together!


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## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

Here's what I think: You need to decide what kind of woman you want in your life. Not if you want her in your life but what kind of woman, in general, you want. Do you want a woman that works? Do you want one who can keep house? Do you want children or not? Do you want marriage or not? 

You need to figure out exactly what kind of relationship and marriage you want before you can decide if you should live with or marry her. If you don't know what you want, then you just go with what you have and hope for the best, and that often turns out to be the worst. 

Once you figure out what it is you want, then you look at her and see if she matches that. If she doesn't, then you end things. If she does, then you figure out do you love her enough to marry her. If she kinda does/kinda doesn't, then you gotta figure out if the things she doesn't match up on are vital. 

I figured out, after my first marriage ended, what kind of things I wanted in a man I might marry in the future and what kind of things I didn't want. I love my boyfriend dearly, but if the things I didn't want started appearing in him, no matter how much I love him, I'd end things. The things I decided I didn't want are things that I feel are vital, and if I had to try to live with them, I would be very depressed and unhappy, which would make any man I was with very depressed and unhappy, and that's just not fair to anyone. 

I can see both sides here, yours and hers. It's understandable you feel the way you feel about money, and I don't think how you handle your fears about it is wrong. You have taken steps to ensure your financial security, and do your best to eliminate any instability. She thinks you are...overzealous. I can see how someone who's never had to worry about money could think that. Having never had to worry about money, she doesn't understand how it feels to not know where your next meal is coming from or worry whether you're going to have a place to live next month. 

I don't know that it's necessarily an issue of who's right or wrong here (although I do agree that she's irresponsible), but more a matter of drastically different ideas on a topic. What you have to figure out is if you can compromise on it, and if you can, do you want to? Which brings us back to you figuring out what you want, and then figuring out if she is that.


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## BrooksPublicationCom (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi,

Marriage and poverty don't have to go 
hand-in-hand.In fact when a husband 
and wife have a written plan and they
BOTH agree on that plan and together
they are consistently working on their 
written plan then their financial life
together will be great.

In your posting you say that you and
your girlfriend are polar opposite when
it comes to finances.Also,you say that
she has expressed interest in someday 
being your wife but you do not say if
you wanted to be her husband. 

Marriage takes a lot of work but it is
worth the work when the two are going
in the same direction.You must know
why you are getting married? How do 
you see your future with this person ?

Marriage is more than warm and fuzzy
feelings and a big ceremony.Marriage 
is about creating a life together that
will become sweeter and sweeter over 
time.Why start out a marriage with
strife and avoidable stress.

The Very Best To You,
Brooks


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

There are people who save and build wealth together who are very happy.

There are people who live hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck who are very happy. I have seen it - they love to buy the next biggest thing and celebrate it.

Let the two of you find your match.


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

I don't understand what you mean when you say that she would pay her debt before you are married. Does she have a plan for this? Or will her parents pay it? Or is it just your wish and she is not on a plan to do this?

If she shows no signs of seeing the problem and making a realistic plan to make it right, then I don't see how you can have a happy relationship sharing finances.


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## nildapride (Nov 29, 2010)

Give a copy of this and tell her, this is how you see life ahead with her: http://hartfordauto.thehartford.com...fe/Planning-For-Today/money-saving-tips.shtml it would be nice if you share her reaction with us.
The bottom line is, when most of us are living in times of stress and financial insecurity, if she cannot learn to support herself and you, she’s not worth it. Have you ever thought of a scenario where God forbid, if you were unable to work, and your significant other did not have the desire/ability to support you, what would happen? Lets be practical here and look at the long term future. She’s clearly not prepared!


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Being financially responsible is not a mental disorder, although to someone who has never successfully supported themselves, it may seem so. Your girlfriend has apparently not supported herself so she doesn't have the same values as one who has. If someone paid my bills, the value of a dollar wouldn't mean much to me, either. She may be the greatest catch on earth but just not quite as financially "mature?" as you at the moment. I would recommend that she get her own place, pay her own bills, and learn the real value of a dollar before she attempts to merge finances with anyone. Her job doesn't even pay for her car insurance? That's not a realistic picture of the world. In the real world, those who earn $400 a month don't drive new cars unless they steal them or they are employed as a valet. Opposites can attract and often do, but couples need to share basic values and agree on basic goals. The fact that she pooh poohs your legitimate concerns as evidence of mental illness speaks volumes about this person. You will have other legitimate concerns and being dismissed as a nut case each time you have one is going to get old. I would suggest the two of you attend one of Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace seminars, but I don't think she has a clue in life what a real job or a real dollar actually is. After she has driven a clunker and ate a few bags of ramen noodles, struggled to pay her bills (but did pay them alone), she'll understand there is no money tree, no Santa Claus, no Tooth Fairy, no Knight in Shining Armor, no magic spinning wheel that turns straw into gold, no castles or glass slippers in her future. She's not really a princess, work won't actually kill her, and a responsible husband with a decent credit rating is sort of a good thing. If you don't have the time or inclination to devote to her financial development, there are loads of women who share your financial goals and views. They all come with the same basic gear that your girlfriend has with the added benefit that they don't think you're crazy.


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## mattc (Oct 22, 2010)

I am too very picky when it comes to money, especially now after my wife and I lost our home. YES, we lost our home, but this is after the fact.

I praise you for trying to have everything in order before you jump into marriage, my wife and I were totally oblivious. She would always tell me the same thing about always thinking about money, but I just wanted to feel secure. Now we have bad credit and NOW she understands.

Your girlfriend probably still gets spoon fed by her parents if they are still helping her financially. Don't let your situation become like mine. Keep up with your savings!

Now my wife and I try to set aside at least 30% of our checks, but we learned the hardway. I know we were dumb, but I hope I can help someone from falling into the same hole I fell into.

Have a good talk with her, and if she doesn't want to, then maybe she doesn't really care about the relationship.

Hope my mistake can serve as help for you.


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## moonangel (Jan 19, 2011)

You two are polar opposites. I fear danger ahead.


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## Lazarus (Jan 17, 2011)

There may be trouble ahead UNLESS you both agree a budget and stick to it. 

A mean penny pinching man is not endearing by any means but a spendthrift wife hiding the shopping under the bed and piling up debts is a liability and a sure fire way to poverty.


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