# gaslighting



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I was talking to a relative about gaslighting. So I googled it and came up with this

https://www.yourtango.com/2018310020/scary-warning-signs-someone-gaslighting-you

This fits the husband's pattern it seems and her feelings. I would not say he CALLS her crazy, but he infers it. The other stuff seems spot on.

She is trying to work with him in therapy. She does not want to broach this because he SAYS he is not. 

My question is, do people who are doing this KNOW they are doing this, or is this some kind of subconscious coping mechanism to avoid their own sense of culpability? She says her husbands HATES to feel blamed for things. Like anything. I have seen it to some small extent.

I don't think I will be much help. But she talks to me.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> I was talking to a relative about gaslighting. So I googled it and came up with this
> 
> https://www.yourtango.com/2018310020/scary-warning-signs-someone-gaslighting-you
> 
> ...


you haven't receivied any replies and I don't want this to be political but look at politics. Someone there is CONSTANTLY gaslighting...do you think he is aware of it?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

PigglyWiggly said:


> you haven't receivied any replies and I don't want this to be political but look at politics. Someone there is CONSTANTLY gaslighting...do you think he is aware of it?


*Preeminently, The gaslighter is little more than a control freak!*


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> My question is, do people who are doing this KNOW they are doing this, or is this some kind of subconscious coping mechanism to avoid their own sense of culpability? She says her husbands HATES to feel blamed for things. Like anything. I have seen it to some small extent.


I think it's a mixture of both. People do something so often it just becomes natural. That should not free them from responsibility.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think there are people who do this with intent, maliciously. They know exactly what they're doing and why, and they have some goal in mind for it - usually firm control of their partner. 

But I think in other cases, it's not really done with malicious intent. My ex-husband was very prone to gaslighting. But I'm fairly certain he wasn't really aware of it. It was more that his worldview and his perceptions of himself simply would not permit him to be at fault in any way for anything, ever. That meant that if he said something mean and I mentioned it later, I must have imagined it. Because a great guy like him wouldn't be unkind or say mean things. If he did something stupid and something was ruined, it wasn't him and how could I imagine he would have done such a thing? He's a good person and a responsible man, he wouldn't make that sort of mistake or error in judgment. I must be mis-remembering what happened. Basically, there was zero capability to accept responsibility for his words and actions. His ego simply did not allow him to accept that anything that might reflect poorly on his image/self-image had happened, or could possibly have been his fault. 

What that also requires, though, is a pretty profound level of disrespect for the partner that's being gaslighted. My ex-husband, deep down, really does see women as less capable, less intelligent, basically weak, highly emotional creatures that are prone to hysterics and generally "acting crazy". Thus, his default assumption was always that he was the rational, honest, man while I, being a woman, was...not. He's an intelligent rational man. Anyone whose experiences/recollections of events/feelings differ from his own, must therefore, be reacting irrationally. He felt it was his job, as my husband who loved me, to help me understand when I was being irrational. And it was totally irrational for me to remember hearing him say words that he'd never said (actually that his ego would not permit him to admit to having said). Didn't I want to speak with someone, a professional maybe, who could work with me on calming myself enough to think things through clearly? Wouldn't I maybe be happier if I were taking something that would help me be more rational, a little more grounded in reality?

It wasn't intentional malice. It was deeply fragile ego, narcissism, and a profound disrespect for me.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

I think gaslighting comes along with their coping mechanism that was established at one point in their life. My counselor believes my STBXW is either a victim of CSA or Bi-Polar. If CSA, she thinks that when she was very young, she developed a coping mechanism that involved what her behavior and personality is today. At some point it may have been a choice but now I believe with someone like my STBXW, she probably doesn't even know she's doing it, it's just ingrained into her being. I can pretty much say that she believes the lies she tells herself and logic she uses. It's very eye opening to someone that rationalizes and measures against normal logic. 

It now makes me question everything she ever said but I'm starting to come out of my own fog. Even when I thought things were good, there would be times when I had talks with her and have something that I knew was true in my head but she was so believable as a reflex, she could make me doubt it, even if I had written it down and knew it was the exact truth. Things as simple as her acting angry and moody around Period time, she had very big mood swings but I would talk to her about it and she would outright deny it and basically make me feel dumb for even trying to think that. I would then walk away and start to doubt myself. 

Then during the past year from the discovery of the affair to the divorce process, I could have proof of texts and emails she sent to OM and she would still deny it but by this time I could see through the gaslighting. 

Sorry, but long story short. There's no excuse for it but at LEAST in my STBXW's case. I don't even think she knows she is doing anything wrong. Case and point, she is heavily involved in our church and carrying on an affair with a married man.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> She does not want to broach this because he SAYS he is not.


Of course, if he/she admits it, the essential trust will be broken. Gaslighting requires the gaslighted person to value the observations and opinions of the gaslighter.

It is wise for the gaslighted to refuse to accept any implications or assertions that he/she is "crazy", "deceived", or incorrectly observant. The judgment of the gaslighted is completely, 100%, valid, and should be completely trusted.



NobodySpecial said:


> My question is, do people who are doing this KNOW they are doing this, or is this some kind of subconscious coping mechanism to avoid their own sense of culpability? She says her husbands HATES to feel blamed for things.


The goal of the gaslighter is to avoid having to face up to the fact that he/she has behaved in a wrong way. Facing our faults is unpleasant for us all, however, we must if we are going to correct ourselves toward uprightness and integrity.

There is no "subconscious".......gaslighting is a despicable, deliberate lie from which the gaslighter must repent and ask forgiveness. The gaslighter is fully aware of his/her sinful actions, and is subject to his/her conscience for it.

The gaslighter has given him/herself permission to lie to, and deceive, the gaslighted. Yes, they know. Every time. All the time.



NobodySpecial said:


> I don't think I will be much help.


On the contrary....you can be a source of affirmation and confirmation that the gaslighted's thinking process is quite rational,, good, and correct.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

stillfightingforus said:


> Case and point, she is heavily involved in our church and carrying on an affair with a married man.


Case and point, being in a chicken house weekly doesn't cause one to grow feathers and lay eggs. No matter how much one may cluck about it. 

It's only when the coop visitor stops deluding him/herself that chicken $hit actually smells good.....

And, shame on this church for not following the scripture and throwing both their concupiscent a$$es out.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

TJW said:


> Case and point, being in a chicken house weekly doesn't cause one to grow feathers and lay eggs. No matter how much one may cluck about it.
> 
> It's only when the coop visitor stops deluding him/herself that chicken $hit actually smells good.....
> 
> And, shame on this church for not following the scripture and throwing both their concupiscent a$$es out.


Why would the church throw them out? The place is slap full of sinners


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Why would the church throw them out? The place is slap full of sinners


Didn't expect her to get thrown out, in fact I don't believe in that. I believe it's not up to us to judge but sure as Hell can make observations lol.

What I did expect was her to be taken off of the rotation for readings and all of the other roles she served in church as well as being on all of the committees. Either Father played favorites with his friend over me or she told him some extreme zingers and he believed them.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

stillfightingforus said:


> Didn't expect her to get thrown out, in fact I don't believe in that. I believe it's not up to us to judge but sure as Hell can make observations lol.
> 
> What I did expect was her to be taken off of the rotation for readings and all of the other roles she served in church as well as being on all of the committees. Either Father played favorites with his friend over me or she told him some extreme zingers and he believed them.


I think i quoted TJW, not you. If I f'd up, I apologize.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

PigglyWiggly said:


> I think i quoted TJW, not you. If I f'd up, I apologize.


No apology needed lol


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

NextTimeAround said:


> I think it's a mixture of both. People do something so often it just becomes natural. *That should not free them from responsibility.*


Regardless of intent, its wrong.

I think some of them actually start to believe their own lies.


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## LTCNurse (Feb 5, 2018)

Rowan said:


> It wasn't intentional malice. It was deeply fragile ego, narcissism, and a profound disrespect for me.


I completely agree as was the case with my XH.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Intent is the point of my curiosity. It is just really hard to imagine someone sitting around and thinking to themselves, gee I am going to get my way by being an abusive and manipulative ahole. Won't that be fun! There is no doubt in my mind that it is wrong and unmanageable. The person in question thinks that if he doesn't realize it, he can be brought around. I think this is a mistake and suggested she get IC to weed through it.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

nice777guy said:


> Regardless of intent, its wrong.
> 
> I think some of them actually start to believe their own lies.


Absolutely! A gaslighter will repeat, repeat, repeat - like a broken record. They are convincing themselves of their own BS (to protect their fragile insecurities/self esteem) as well as convincing their target. What a healthy person will express and forget, a gaslighter will not let go.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I don't think my xw intended to be abusive. She did intend to manipulate via saying things that weren't truths, but it wasn't like the movie Gas Light where the main character intends for his wife to think she is going crazy. It was more like she figured I wouldn't remember something or that I would not be 100% certain, so she could use that to pass off a lie. She did intend to change what I perceived to be reality, so it was definitely gaslighting.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

I think it's intentional behavior that eventually becomes natural/compulsive ... their behavior is out of control and so are the lies.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Why would the church throw them out? The place is slap full of sinners


Because it is a direct instruction of our Lord (see Matthew 18:15-17).

And, it is a direct instruction given by Paul the Apostle (see I Corinthians 5:9-13).

Of course, the church is totally comprised of sinners. Sinners who are following the Lord with a contrite and repentant heart. I see no contrition, no repentance here. This woman has, on an extended and continuous basis, engaged in adultery, and cannot be seen as seeking to restore herself in any form.

The indulgence of the church makes them partakers and enablers of sin.

If these two people become repentant, stop their affair, and attempt to reconcile with their true, lawful spouses, after a time of restoration, they should be welcomed back into the fellowship.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

TJW said:


> Because it is a direct instruction of our Lord (see Matthew 18:15-17).
> 
> And, it is a direct instruction given by Paul the Apostle (see I Corinthians 5:9-13).
> 
> ...



thank you for answering


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## dallasgia (Jun 4, 2018)

Rowan said:


> I think there are people who do this with intent, maliciously. They know exactly what they're doing and why, and they have some goal in mind for it - usually firm control of their partner.
> 
> But I think in other cases, it's not really done with malicious intent. My ex-husband was very prone to gaslighting. But I'm fairly certain he wasn't really aware of it. It was more that his worldview and his perceptions of himself simply would not permit him to be at fault in any way for anything, ever. That meant that if he said something mean and I mentioned it later, I must have imagined it. Because a great guy like him wouldn't be unkind or say mean things. If he did something stupid and something was ruined, it wasn't him and how could I imagine he would have done such a thing? He's a good person and a responsible man, he wouldn't make that sort of mistake or error in judgment. I must be mis-remembering what happened. Basically, there was zero capability to accept responsibility for his words and actions. His ego simply did not allow him to accept that anything that might reflect poorly on his image/self-image had happened, or could possibly have been his fault.
> 
> ...




Reading this I thought, “my gosh- we are married to same man”. 


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> My question is, do people who are doing this KNOW they are doing this, or is this some kind of subconscious coping mechanism to avoid their own sense of culpability?


Generally the latter, in my opinion. 



NextTimeAround said:


> I think it's a mixture of both. People do something so often it just becomes natural. That should not free them from responsibility.


And they learn all that in childhood.



Rowan said:


> I think there are people who do this with intent, maliciously. They know exactly what they're doing and why, and they have some goal in mind for it - usually firm control of their partner.
> 
> But I think in other cases, it's not really done with malicious intent.


Doing it with conscious intent, that would be a sociopath. Most of the time, when we're having an argument, we do think the other person is like "wrong" or "mistaken". It's only a small step to thinking they're "crazy", and trying to get them to see that, so that things can be better. Only a minority of people have the capacity to sincerely think, "hey maybe it's me that's mistaken". 



NobodySpecial said:


> Intent is the point of my curiosity. It is just really hard to imagine someone sitting around and thinking to themselves, gee I am going to get my way by being an abusive and manipulative ahole. Won't that be fun!


Like I said, a sociopath might do that, but most of the time, that's not at all what's happening.
It's more like "what can I say to get through to my partner that they're completely wrong".


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Laurentium said:


> Most of the time, when we're having an argument, we do think the other person is like "wrong" or "mistaken".


I think I hear what you're saying. And, I agree that it's a human tendency to adopt the premise of "I'm right...until I'm proven wrong"... like in an argument where we are defensive, it's a sort of self-protection.

I never considered that "gaslighting".... because I can see, in this, the sincerity of the person arguing with me....he/she honestly considers him/herself "right"......there's no lie in that....he/she believes what he/she says...



Laurentium said:


> It's more like "what can I say to get through to my partner that they're completely wrong".


What I've thought to be gaslighting is "what can I say to get through to my partner that they're completely wrong, because their judgment is impaired, or that they have drawn an incorrect conclusion, in spite of knowing that they're completely right, their judgment is fair and logical, and their conclusion is the truth"...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Laurentium said:


> Like I said, a sociopath might do that, but most of the time, that's not at all what's happening.
> It's more like "what can I say to get through to my partner that they're completely wrong".


I was talking to her last night. She described something full on weird. A couple of days ago, he was recounting his conversation with her therapist to her. (If he was TRYING to be dishonest, wouldn't he just keep his mouth shut?) He recounted to her how he told the therapist that she was not nurturing by her nature. (She described the conversation that followed which is not on point.) She said he then brought the exact same thing up to the marital counselor. The marital counselor said something like do you see the difference between saying you don't feel she is nurturing to you vs a character assignation about her nature? Now he claims he never said anything other than she is not nurturing to him. Nothing about not being nurturing by her nature. 

I have nothing. Could he simply not remember the 2 conversations? I just told her I had no clue and that she should talk to her therapist.


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## Suspicious1 (Nov 19, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> I was talking to her last night. She described something full on weird. A couple of days ago, he was recounting his conversation with her therapist to her. (If he was TRYING to be dishonest, wouldn't he just keep his mouth shut?) He recounted to her how he told the therapist that she was not nurturing by her nature. (She described the conversation that followed which is not on point.) She said he then brought the exact same thing up to the marital counselor. The marital counselor said something like do you see the difference between saying you don't feel she is nurturing to you vs a character assignation about her nature? Now he claims he never said anything other than she is not nurturing to him. Nothing about not being nurturing by her nature.
> 
> I have nothing. Could he simply not remember the 2 conversations? I just told her I had no clue and that she should talk to her therapist.


I tend to do this at times, it's unintentional for sure.
My guess is, I'm not so great at communication let alone in an emotional conversation, trying to gather my thoughts or like a script that I've been going over and over through my head comes out all mangled during the initial conversation. 
Add being interrupted and other side comments puts my thoughts to some serious duress. 

Later when things are calmed, and the conversation continues it's slightly different and takes on new meaning, even though it's subtle the differences causes my wife to go into a tail spin. 

She is the opposite of me, and is very precise or tries to be. Or I'm better at getting the gist of the conversation, and don't analysis every other word. Not so sure, but I have been more critical of what she says of lately, it's not so fun for her when I bring up what exactly did XYZ mean.

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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Suspicious1 said:


> I tend to do this at times, it's unintentional for sure.
> My guess is, I'm not so great at communication let alone in an emotional conversation, trying to gather my thoughts or like a script that I've been going over and over through my head comes out all mangled during the initial conversation.
> Add being interrupted and other side comments puts my thoughts to some serious duress.
> 
> Later when things are calmed, and the conversation continues it's slightly different and takes on new meaning, even though it's subtle the differences causes my wife to go into a tail spin.


Would you say that the actual details of what was said are different between the two of you? Like she said something specific twice then does not remember having EVER said that?


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## Suspicious1 (Nov 19, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> Would you say that the actual details of what was said are different between the two of you? Like she said something specific twice then does not remember having EVER said that?


Indeed, and again not so sure it's intentional thou.

I chalk it up of her being fatigue or overwhelm with every day life. It's nothing malicious at all, things that she believes she told me , ( or worst never told me) one way but it's a tad different in the present.

She gets upset because she believes it was spoken the way she believes, but then I mention certain key words or mentioned what we were doing and it comes back!

It happens to me as well, but it's not so upsetting to me, I've accepted my short memory has been shot long time ago. Just don't mess with my long term memory, I'm a beast to be dealt with. 

It funny, I've been in situation were my friends are telling a story about some crazy night, and it's all wrong. I have to remind tgem how it happened and they all laugh about missing the key details. It's weird how it events and conversation can be misconstrued so easily and some that were actually there go with it with no problem at all.



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## LTCNurse (Feb 5, 2018)

dallasgia said:


> Reading this I thought, “my gosh- we are married to same man”.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Well he was MY husband first! lol


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

My ex was famous at this. This and confusing me by asking rapid fire questions that weren't always related to the point. He was also the master of the "I am sorry I reacted so badly to YOU" apology. It was crazy-making.

I really think some people are just incapable of ever being wrong. And it is NOT a personality trait. It is a character flaw.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

NobodySpecial said:


> I was talking to her last night. She described something full on weird. A couple of days ago, he was recounting his conversation with her therapist to her. (If he was TRYING to be dishonest, wouldn't he just keep his mouth shut?) He recounted to her how he told the therapist that she was not nurturing by her nature. (She described the conversation that followed which is not on point.) She said he then brought the exact same thing up to the marital counselor. The marital counselor said something like do you see the difference between saying you don't feel she is nurturing to you vs a character assignation about her nature? Now he claims he never said anything other than she is not nurturing to him. Nothing about not being nurturing by her nature.
> 
> I have nothing. Could he simply not remember the 2 conversations? I just told her I had no clue and that she should talk to her therapist.


First - maybe off topic - but why was he talking to her therapist without her?

Second - I'm not good with remembering "exact words." My Ex - and my oldest daughter - both often expect(ed) me to recount conversations word-by-word. Nope. Not happening. I remember feelings, moods, etc. 

Maybe he did say it that way - but when questioned by the therapist - realized that his words weren't an accurate reflection of how he actually felt or what he meant to say.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> Maybe he did say it that way - but when questioned by the therapist - realized that his words weren't an accurate reflection of how he actually felt or what he meant to say.


This is very possible. I've done that.

The correct thing to do in that case is to say "Yes, I remember that is what I said in the moment. This is what I actually meant..."

Not "You're crazy! I NEVER said that!"

It can be solved easily with a combination of honesty and humility.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

nice777guy said:


> First - maybe off topic - but why was he talking to her therapist without her?


No idea.



> Second - I'm not good with remembering "exact words." My Ex - and my oldest daughter - both often expect(ed) me to recount conversations word-by-word. Nope. Not happening. I remember feelings, moods, etc.


The way she described it was not an exact word thing but 2 conversations where he said something to the effect that she was not nurturing by her nature that he later changed to not nurturing to him having no recollection of the by nature element of the 2 previous conversations. 

The thing is that she is accepting that her whole recollection of the conversation is basically wrong. 



> Maybe he did say it that way - but when questioned by the therapist - realized that his words weren't an accurate reflection of how he actually felt or what he meant to say.


She thinks he did not change it until its acceptability was challenged by the marriage counselor.

Anyway I think I will listen and node and suggest she speak to her own therapist about it. It just makes me feel bad to see her question her own reality.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> My question is, do people who are doing this KNOW they are doing this, or is this some kind of subconscious coping mechanism to avoid their own sense of culpability? She says her husbands HATES to feel blamed for things. Like anything. I have seen it to some small extent.


I agree with @NextTimeAround on this: if you do something often enough, it becomes a natural way of life, but they should still be held culpable. I also think that some people do it intentionally.

My STBXH exhibited a lot of gas lighting signs, but I'm not sure he was aware of them. He is very highly educated, and thinks very highly of himself and his abilities. Looking back on things now, I believe that he may be on the spectrum. I think that because of how highly he thought of himself, he had a hard time admitting fault to anything. He was also overly sensitive to things, like my bringing up an issue in our relationship, he would often perceive that as him being blamed or me attacking him, so he would swing the fault back on me, twist my and his words around, dodge the subject at hand and keep changing the subject until I forgot what the original issue was. He also told me many times that memories change all the time, and that I don't remember things correctly, but that he had photographic memory. So yeah, I was always second guessing myself, feeling totally nuts, and like I could never do/say/remember anything. It basically felt like I was losing my mind. Luckily, I found myself and my mind again and dug out of that hole. 

My ex put himself on a pedestal, and felt that he was above most of the population, myself included. He saw me as a project or one of his students that needed someone to teach/mentor them. What I really wanted and needed though was a best friend, a partner to travel through life with. He's just incapable of providing that.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Rowan said:


> I think there are people who do this with intent, maliciously. They know exactly what they're doing and why, and they have some goal in mind for it - usually firm control of their partner.
> 
> But I think in other cases, it's not really done with malicious intent. My ex-husband was very prone to gaslighting. But I'm fairly certain he wasn't really aware of it. It was more that his worldview and his perceptions of himself simply would not permit him to be at fault in any way for anything, ever. That meant that if he said something mean and I mentioned it later, I must have imagined it. Because a great guy like him wouldn't be unkind or say mean things. If he did something stupid and something was ruined, it wasn't him and how could I imagine he would have done such a thing? He's a good person and a responsible man, he wouldn't make that sort of mistake or error in judgment. I must be mis-remembering what happened. Basically, there was zero capability to accept responsibility for his words and actions. His ego simply did not allow him to accept that anything that might reflect poorly on his image/self-image had happened, or could possibly have been his fault.
> 
> ...


Oh my Lord, were we married to the same man?!? Everything you said, I echo, right down to my own ex suggesting that I seek psychological help, but because I liked my living space clean and organized, and he differed from me in that respect. So, I couldn't possibly be "normal", could I?


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

dallasgia said:


> Reading this I thought, “my gosh- we are married to same man”.


Apparently, he was 3-timing, because that post also described my STBXH, spot-on!


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## Ms. GP (Jul 8, 2013)

I personally don't think the gaslighters I have come across are doing it consciously. I think they have the ability to make things up and actually believe them. They believe their "truth" is the only truth.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I'm always right until I'm wrong 😉😉😉


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

When I first heard about gaslighting, I was pretty sure I was being gaslighted. I was confused and doubted my memories a lot. Eventually I came to the conclusion that if I was being gaslighted, it wasn't consciously. The gas lighter had no recollection of the contrary statements. When I ruled out malicious intent, all that was left was the fact that I can't count on what she says, until after the action fulfills the promise.

The damage to the relationship is a loss of trust. We still feel the same way about each other, but I don't always believe her. More of, OK that is the truth for now, until you say different. I have to be more independent. I have to be prepared for whatever the truth turns out to be in the end.

The other thing I learned was that just because you are confused and think you are going crazy, it doesn't mean you are being gaslighted.


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## Davidmidwest (Nov 22, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I was talking to a relative about gaslighting. So I googled it and came up with this
> 
> https://www.yourtango.com/2018310020/scary-warning-signs-someone-gaslighting-you
> 
> ...


Hi,
I was gaslit for a decade. I knew something was up and I refused to look at it nor had the guts to leave. Gas lighting never stops. Get out now. Read all the John Gottman P.h.D. relationship books you can get your hands on and read Dr. Laura Schlessinger's book Proper Care and Feeding of Marriage. All these books will give you a good education and knowledge of what you have been missing of what a real healthy relationship is. My case. It nearly destroyed me. [email protected]


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