# This, That, and The Other



## YummyGirl (Jul 23, 2014)

Hello,
I'm a newbie so please forgive me. This section seems to be the most appropriate given my situation. For you non-Seinfeld fans, This = friendship, That = sex, and The Other = love. My husband and I are best friends who deeply love each other so we have lots of this and the other, but we've been missing 'that' for years. (When we had sex early in our relationship, it was mostly fantastic.)

We've been together eleven years and married almost eight years, but our sex life changed right after he proposed. We had a short engagement so I ignored the problem (mistake!). Anyway, he started having problems maintaining an erection during sex--not all the time, but it gradually worsened over the years. We did not discuss this problem for five years even though we both acknowledged that we wanted to improve our sex life. 

For the past three years, we have/he has:
-seen multiple therapists, separately and together, including an MFT, a psychiatrist, and now my husband sees a psychologist on his own.
-read more books and done more exercises than I care to count.
-seen two of the top urologists in the country. He's been diagnosed with Peyronie's Disease, but he doesn't have all of the symptoms and it doesn't necessarily explain his ED.
-taken every ED drug on/off the market. EVERY one. I swear--in almost every combination possible.
-taken every supplement, tried every diet, changed his workout, you name it, my husband has probably tried it. 

I'm glad he is seeing a therapist he really likes now (he dumped his previous two) because I still feel there is a psychological component to his problem even though a physiological/biological component exists too. The last time we tried to have sex (i.e., I felt his erection was at least 90 percent or more after much foreplay), he lost it immediately upon entering me. I was humiliated. I burst into tears and do not want to repeat that experience again. I simply don't. I know it's not me, and I know I shouldn't base my self-esteem on my husband's sexual attraction to me, but it's hard not to take it personally. Men hit on me all the time, but the one man I want cannot fulfill me. 

BTW, we are both in our 40s, attractive and in good physical shape. My husband is not looking at porn, and I don't worry about him with other women. We have not had a successful sexual experience in over a year.

Though our terrible sex life is the worst problem in our marriage, there have been other issues that we have/are working out. He was selfish for many years and put his own needs--including hobbies and an ex-girlfriend--before me and our marriage. Though I will never forget the awful things he has said to me (he doesn't fight fair), I will forgive/have forgiven him. 

But I don't see how I can live the second half of my life without sex. I've had a high sex drive most of my life. Sex is such a natural, beautiful way to connect with another person. Without it, a terrible emptiness exists, a chasm between husband and wife. I know so many people in sexless marriages and I never thought I would be one of those people ...

Every divorced person I know, well, it was obvious. The spouse walked out or he/she was abusive, an addict, an alcoholic, etc. Our immediate families (I love my in-laws; they love me) know we are struggling and of course, no one wants us to give up. They do not know why we are having problems.

My husband and I are both stubborn, persistent people who don't give up easily on anything. So I ask you--how do you know when to quit?

Thank you in advance for reading, for understanding, and for your advice. 

~YG 

P.S. We do not have children. Just pets.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Does your husband masturbate? If so does he have problems with when he does?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You say that he has been very selfish and that he's been pretty mean verbally at times.

Does he seem to have a lot of anger?


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## YummyGirl (Jul 23, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Does your husband masturbate? If so does he have problems with when he does?


Great question! (I thought I covered everything.)

He sometimes has problems and sometimes does not. But he is never fully erect when he masturbates, which is occasionally.


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## YummyGirl (Jul 23, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> You say that he has been very selfish and that he's been pretty mean verbally at times.
> 
> Does he seem to have a lot of anger?


I don't think my husband walks around angry. But he acknowledges now he probably wasn't ready to get married (despite being in his late 30s at the time). He doesn't compromise easily or at all. When we fight, he becomes mean quickly. 
However, he has worked a lot on these issues and I have hope that he may change. I know I have and he sees he cannot yell me into submission anymore. I hate the way he fights so I used to shut down or walk away. Now I don't let him get away with his behavior anymore.
~YG


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

YummyGirl said:


> I don't think my husband walks around angry. But he acknowledges now he probably wasn't ready to get married (despite being in his late 30s at the time). He doesn't compromise easily or at all. When we fight, he becomes mean quickly.
> However, he has worked a lot on these issues and I have hope that he may change. I know I have and he sees he cannot yell me into submission anymore. I hate the way he fights so I used to shut down or walk away. Now I don't let him get away with his behavior anymore.
> ~YG


The reason I asked about the anger is that in some of the literature I've read on the topic of men withholding sex it's mentioned that often times it's a passive aggressive way that some men express anger and punish their wife. They cannot outwardly express and handle the anger so it shuts them down completely sexually. 

I of course do not know if this is the case with your husband. But he does seem to have an anger issue.

I've been through something similar in my marriage. In the end I left because, as you say the pain from the lack of intimacy is crushing. It's a legitimate reason to leave a marriage. Your husband has a lot issues and does not seem to be able to get beyond them. 

Does he ever try to do sexual things with you just to give you pleasure? Does he do things like cuddle a lot with you and other intimate things?


You way that you have read a lot of books. So I was hesitant to suggest this one. But did it anyway just incase. I found it very informative/interesting.

http://www.amazon.com/Hes-Just-Not-...98194&sr=1-1&keywords=why+men+stop+having+sex


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

Sounds like the sex is the main problem. The angry/unfair fighting sounds like it is getting better, if I understand you correctly. Furthermore, I think the emotions involved in unsuccessful sexual interactions will lead to more anger and arguments (and hurt feelings).

Sometimes ED reaches a point in which it cannot easily be remedied by NO inhibitors, exercise, etc. The way you post, it sounds like he may be there. I would defer to his urologist to make that decision with you.

If that is where you are, it seems like you have three options: 

One, is live a marriage with a reduced or absent sexual component. It doesn't sound like you are OK with that. -or-

Two, is to have a sexual relationship that does not necesarily involve PIV sex. Toys, hands, tongues, etc. can still be in play. Many people can be very fulfilled with this. Many cannot. Only you two can decide. -or-

Three, is for him to have a penile implant. That is often the final option for severe peyronie's anyway. That may allow options for traditional male-female penetrative sex. His urologist will be an important resource to help make that decision. The surgery is not for the faint of heart, though, and you can't just "undo" it, as there will be permanent destruction of the normal erectile function. 

I can't think of other options at this point. Maybe his urologist can offer others.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

I would suggest the two of you go to the Urologist and discuss options. 

I was wondering about Alprostadil (muse) which is a suppository you shove up his you know what. Since there is no injection, maybe someone with peryones disease can still use it.

There are methods a urologist can use to break up scar tissue inside if that is what is causing his disease. An ultrasonic test will reveal what the condition is.

There are vacuum erection devices that can get him hard, and after hard you can slip a rubber ring around it to keep it hard during intercourse.

Also, some men get penile implants. they apparently are very painful for a couple weeks, then they say they love them after that.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

"The last time we tried to have sex (i.e., I felt his erection was at least 90 percent or more after much foreplay), he lost it immediately upon entering me"

This is what happens to my husband when we try to have sex. I handle it by kissing and hugging him and then we cuddle. Crying and getting upset is just going to make him feel worse about the situation. He already feels bad. I have accepted our situation and we do other things to satisfy each other. You may have to accept that you might not have a sex life like you want to.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

If you want to stay, then you're going to have to find a work around to his erection problems.

What exactly does his strong erection communicate to you and how can he communicate that without a strong erection?

For me, a strong erection means he wants me, that's he is really turned on by me and that I push all of his erotic and love buttons. It's as simple as that. 

So when my husband can't deliver a strong erection consistently, there MUST be another avenue that he can use to deliver that message that I need to feel FROM him.

This is what we consistently struggle with. But let's get back to you.

I don't blame you for your tears. They tell me you don't feel wanted when he can't maintain an erection and he needs to know that. But don't stop there. Communicate what message his strong erection conveys to you. Work together to find ways for him to get that message delivered to you in other ways.

And here is the hard part. You can't control him so if he has trouble communicating that message to you what then? I can almost guarantee you that he will!

I suggest you find a sex therapist who can work with both of you together on how to communicate and deliver the messages a strong erection gives. There's always oral sex, digital sex, toys... But they don't communicate the same way a strong erection communicates. So they have to used in conjunction with WORDS, gazes, touches and fearless honesty.

Let him stay with his therapist, but you both need the sex therapy to guide you through this.

I wish I had known what I just wrote 15 years ago! Take the benefit of my long road knowledge and make a short cut!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Does he have morning erections? If not, or seldom, then he may have low testosterone. Has that been checked and found to be near optimal (about 700 - lower than 500 may result in problems even though it's in the "normal" range)? Low T usually means low desire as well.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Re: This, That, and The Other*



YummyGirl said:


> He was selfish for many years and put his own needs--including hobbies and an ex-girlfriend--before me and our marriage. Though I will never forget the awful things he has said to me (he doesn't fight fair), I will forgive/have forgiven him.


Could you please elaborate on these points?


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## YummyGirl (Jul 23, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> The reason I asked about the anger is that in some of the literature I've read on the topic of men withholding sex it's mentioned that often times it's a passive aggressive way that some men express anger and punish their wife. They cannot outwardly express and handle the anger so it shuts them down completely sexually.
> 
> I of course do not know if this is the case with your husband. But he does seem to have an anger issue.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the suggestion and for sharing your experience. I read that book last summer. :/


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## YummyGirl (Jul 23, 2014)

Wolfman1968 said:


> Sounds like the sex is the main problem. The angry/unfair fighting sounds like it is getting better, if I understand you correctly. Furthermore, I think the emotions involved in unsuccessful sexual interactions will lead to more anger and arguments (and hurt feelings).
> 
> Sometimes ED reaches a point in which it cannot easily be remedied by NO inhibitors, exercise, etc. The way you post, it sounds like he may be there. I would defer to his urologist to make that decision with you.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Wolfman. 
You sound like you really get it. The options you have listed are the ones we have discussed. Neither one of us is okay with little to no sex. We're still contemplating #2, which isn't impossible, but still a big compromise. My favorite part of making love is intercourse and I have to decide if I'm willing to settle. (I know how that must sound but it would be settling. Oral sex is not the same for me.) As for #3, well, my husband ruled it out, but now says an implant is back on the table. I have mixed emotions about it given how major and irreversible that surgery is although I haven't met a man who has regretted it yet (mostly reading on this forum). 
Your thoughtful insight is much appreciated. 
~YG


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## YummyGirl (Jul 23, 2014)

murphy5 said:


> I would suggest the two of you go to the Urologist and discuss options.
> 
> I was wondering about Alprostadil (muse) which is a suppository you shove up his you know what. Since there is no injection, maybe someone with peryones disease can still use it.
> 
> ...


Forgive my bluntness.

We have discussed every option with his urologist who is at a total loss now, which is how my husband ended up seeking a second opinion. 
My husband looked into the suppository. 
Yes, the scar tissue can be broken up, but that would not impact/improve his ED according to the urologists. (Husband had an ultrasound.)
The vacuum device made his Peyronies worse. I recommend any man with PD proceed w/ caution when using that device. Huge mistake for my husband. 
The implant is our last resort, but it is back on the table as an option. 

Thank you for your feedback.


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## YummyGirl (Jul 23, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> If you want to stay, then you're going to have to find a work around to his erection problems.
> 
> What exactly does his strong erection communicate to you and how can he communicate that without a strong erection?
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your experience. 

Unfortunately, we had a horrible experience with a sex therapist who wasted six months of our time and money. Ultimately, all she did was give my husband pills and tell me that sex wasn't the most important thing in a marriage. So meds and a mind shift were her answer. 

Here's one of the issues I have: if the situation were reversed, I don't think the therapist--a licensed psychiatrist--would have told my husband that sex wasn't the most important thing in a marriage. One of the most frustrating things for me (especially when I read books) is I feel there is a huge double standard regarding sex in a marriage when it comes to men and women. I've been told on many occasions I display "male energy" (even though I wear pencil skirts, high heels, etc.) because I'm competitive, ambitious, and confident. That's ridiculous.

Anyway, my point is, the person with the lower sex drive controls the sex and when it's the man, the woman is supposed to deal with it. To accept other forms of physical affection. I love cuddling and holding hands, but it's not the same. It's not as intimate. 

[stepping off soap box]
~YG


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## YummyGirl (Jul 23, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Does he have morning erections? If not, or seldom, then he may have low testosterone. Has that been checked and found to be near optimal (about 700 - lower than 500 may result in problems even though it's in the "normal" range)? Low T usually means low desire as well.


Yes, he has had his T tested many times over the past three years. While it has occasionally been low and he took Androgel for awhile, his levels are normal now.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

YummyGirl said:


> Thank you for sharing your experience.
> 
> Unfortunately, we had a horrible experience with a sex therapist who wasted six months of our time and money. Ultimately, all she did was give my husband pills and tell me that sex wasn't the most important thing in a marriage. So meds and a mind shift were her answer.
> 
> ...


I don't see the double standard. There are plenty of men here who aren't getting sex or intimacy with their wives who are advised various ways to build intimacy while installing boundaries. Don't allow your spouse to treat you coldly, callously or disrespectfully while at the same time insist on building intimacy. Some men will go to the ends of the earth to build intimacy but ignore boundaries. While others go for boundaries but ignore intimacy. The only successes I've seen are the men and women who work both avenues.

If you sex therapist didn't help, find another one. Check their education and training. Ask your husbands therapist for names of therapists who specialize in sex therapy.

Lastly, if your previous sex therapist actually suggested you find ways accept that sex isn't the most important thing in a marriage you either blocked her real message or your found a completely ignorant, untrained and fool of a therapist.



> But I don't see how I can live the second half of my life without sex. I've had a high sex drive most of my life. Sex is such a natural, beautiful way to connect with another person. Without it, a terrible emptiness exists, a chasm between husband and wife. I know so many people in sexless marriages and I never thought I would be one of those people ...


I wouldn't suggest you try to accept a life without sex. I certainly wouldn't. I can't imagine a sex therapist even suggesting such a thing and frankly I doubt you heard her message correctly. Perhaps it was closer to this, "find ways to have sex with each other that also deliver the powerful intimacy intercourse brings." INTERCOURSE requires an insertable object. But sex doesn't require intercourse.



> Every divorced person I know, well, it was obvious. The spouse walked out or he/she was abusive, an addict, an alcoholic, etc. Our immediate families (I love my in-laws; they love me) know we are struggling and of course, no one wants us to give up. They do not know why we are having problems.


Why does your family know about your husbands erection problems? Did he tell or did you? And what does this mean to you? Do you feel as if your husbands erection problems only aren't enough to end the marriage without being judged harshly?

It's your life and your happiness, not theirs.



> My husband and I are both stubborn, persistent people who don't give up easily on anything. So I ask you--how do you know when to quit?


You quit when you have fully, openly, and honestly tried everything and nothing works.

From your posts it doesn't seem like you have. But I'm not going to get into a back and forth with you. You describe yourselves as stubborn and persistent. People who are stubborn don't tend to be open. Certainly not open to looking at the problem from another perspective. I sense this in you from your posts. I have a daughter like that. She has to do every thing her way no matter what.

Good luck and I do hope you end up very happy with whatever decision you make.


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

AP, that last line of the quote you have says the family does not know why they are having issues.

OP I would highly recommend learning more about the implant. Over 20yrs ago I worked on the urology floor and one of our specialties was implants. I remember watching the couples be so excited. Get recommendations on the best doc for the job, if you get the best one even if you have to travel a little your odds are best of having a great outcome. I'm sure the technology has gotten even better.

I understand how it feels when you don't excite him the same, even if you know that it may just be a medical thing. Ours was T driven but still the feelings are the same. ((((Hugs))))


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Time to get new glasses....again. Another year a higher strength. Thanks 2.


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## YummyGirl (Jul 23, 2014)

For AP re: "Why does your family know about your husbands erection problems? Did he tell or did you? And what does this mean to you? Do you feel as if your husbands erection problems only aren't enough to end the marriage without being judged harshly?"

Please read my words carefully:
"Our immediate families (I love my in-laws; they love me) know we are struggling and of course, no one wants us to give up. They do not know why we are having problems."

We have not and will not tell our families about my husband's ED. That wouldn't be appropriate. 

Please don't compare me to your daughter. Just as no two marriages are alike, no two people are alike. I came to this forum for advice--not judgment. 

Thank you.
~YG


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Time to get new glasses....again. Another year a higher strength. Thanks 2.


Time marching on sucks sometimes doesn't it!


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## jay1365 (May 22, 2013)

YummyGirl said:


> Yes, he has had his T tested many times over the past three years. While it has occasionally been low and he took Androgel for awhile, his levels are normal now.


Hi Yummygirl,

You didn't say if he gets morning erections. If he does, his ED is between his ears, not between his legs.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jay1365 said:


> Hi Yummygirl,
> 
> You didn't say if he gets morning erections. If he does, his ED is between his ears, not between his legs.


Yep... my second husband (exh) said he was ED. But he had no problem with morning erections.

He also refused to see a doctor to deal with his "ED". See I wonder why?


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

jay1365 said:


> Hi Yummygirl,
> 
> You didn't say if he gets morning erections. If he does, his ED is between his ears, not between his legs.


Yes, this is extremely important in my view, because if he does get morning erections and that means he doesn't have a physical problem, then implants and other drastic measures should be off the table.

This would be good news. Then you can concentrate on one area. His brain and his libido.


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## YummyGirl (Jul 23, 2014)

Quote:
Originally Posted by YummyGirl View Post
He was selfish for many years and put his own needs--including hobbies and an ex-girlfriend--before me and our marriage. Though I will never forget the awful things he has said to me (he doesn't fight fair), I will forgive/have forgiven him.


Satya said:


> Could you please elaborate on these points?


In order to avoid going down a rabbit hole, I'll give you one example. 
(The ex-girlfriend is a much longer story that I don't care to retell.)

I've always supported my husband having hobbies. We are both independent people. However, when his favorite hobby karate almost killed him (that's a quote from the doctor), I expressed my concern. When karate rendered him incapable of working the following year causing him to go on disability for five months, I once again expressed my concern and frustration, but did not give an ultimatum. The third time he got hurt, I lost it. My husband was on disability for almost a year. He still thought it was appropriate for him to pursue karate. 

Last December, I told him to choose: me/our marriage or karate. 
His response, "I have to think about it."
Now within a day, he apologized, realized he was a complete idiot and on the verge of losing everything over a hobby that was hurting his ability to work and support his family. But will I ever forget what he said? Nope. Never. 

I heard once that women forgive but don't forget and men forget but don't forgive. Not sure if that's true but it applies to me. 

~YG


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## YummyGirl (Jul 23, 2014)

jorgegene said:


> Yes, this is extremely important in my view, because if he does get morning erections and that means he doesn't have a physical problem, then implants and other drastic measures should be off the table.
> 
> This would be good news. Then you can concentrate on one area. His brain and his libido.


Hello all,
My husband never gets morning erections. 
~YG


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

jay1365 said:


> Hi Yummygirl,
> 
> You didn't say if he gets morning erections. If he does, his ED is between his ears, not between his legs.


Are you a doctor?

I'm betting that there are degrees of ED and various causes. Hormonal levels at different times of the day too.

Check with a medical expert for the best information on this.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Re: This, That, and The Other*



YummyGirl said:


> (The ex-girlfriend is a much longer story that I don't care to retell.)


That's entirely your prerogative, my only reason for curiosity is that we see a lot of stories here involving exes bringing hardship to a marriage. Boundaries are crossed, feelings get hurt, trust is lost. If this is a more recent issue that you have been dealing with, it might be significant. Lots of folks here at TAM are hesitant to offer advice unless they have a good deal of info. 

Sometimes there are medical reasons for ED. Sometimes there are psychological reasons and sometimes they don't make any sense at all. If you have already exhausted the means by which it may be determined a medical problem, the answer may have something to do with what's on his mind.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

michzz said:


> Are you a doctor?
> 
> I'm betting that there are degrees of ED and various causes. Hormonal levels at different times of the day too.
> 
> Check with a medical expert for the best information on this.


Of course ED is a complex issue that needs to be addressed by a qualified Dr. She has already had him see drs.

That does not negate jay1365's point. That is that; if you have morning erections, the basic process is functioning and it would point to non-physical issues. If there are no morning erections, then it points to physical issues. Don't have to be a dr. to understand that.

She has already answered the above and there are no morning erections and she has had him see several drs. only to be frustrated. My reason in pointing this out is so that readers can advise and comment based on this information.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

So the facts are:

1. Hub's ED has been untreatable, and an implant is the only remaining option.
2. Intercourse is an absolute need for you that you are unwilling to go without.

I can only imagine 3 possible routes to choose from:

1. Him getting the implant.
2. Opening the relationship to a third party (mmf threesome).
3. Ending the relationship.

It would seem #1 is the next step.


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## YummyGirl (Jul 23, 2014)

Satya said:


> That's entirely your prerogative, my only reason for curiosity is that we see a lot of stories here involving exes bringing hardship to a marriage. Boundaries are crossed, feelings get hurt, trust is lost. If this is a more recent issue that you have been dealing with, it might be significant. Lots of folks here at TAM are hesitant to offer advice unless they have a good deal of info.
> 
> Sometimes there are medical reasons for ED. Sometimes there are psychological reasons and sometimes they don't make any sense at all. If you have already exhausted the means by which it may be determined a medical problem, the answer may have something to do with what's on his mind.


Thank you. The ex-girlfriend issue is almost four years old now. I believe we have worked through most of it in therapy, but it almost ended our marriage. For the record though, he didn't cheat. 
~YG


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