# What's an EA?



## The Renegade (May 16, 2012)

Emotional Affair, yes. But what exactly is that? Maybe I am the only one here wondering and it is a dumb question. 

It seems everybody uses this term and knows clearly what it means, so I hope I get some clues or a definition. (And I really don't mean to be cynical).

Is it something like a close friendship with someone of the other sex? And if not, what are you doing differently than with a friend?

Are you discussing things that you don't want to discuss at home? And, if yes, would that automatically be something to worry about?

Maybe there is a thread somewhere to explain this term - please let me know.


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## effess (Nov 20, 2009)

I would classify it has having romantic feelings for someone else of the opposite sex who isn't ur spouse. also ur spouse is spending an abnormal amount of time with this other person. so whether that's face to face, thru email, IM , Facebook etc.


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## The Renegade (May 16, 2012)

effess said:


> I would classify it has having romantic feelings for someone else of the opposite sex who isn't ur spouse. also ur spouse is spending an abnormal amount of time with this other person. so whether that's face to face, thru email, IM , Facebook etc.


If it's romantic feelings, could it be considered then as the pre-phase to a PA? (the targeted outcome would still be a PA, right?)


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

A secret relationship between someone in a committed relationship and a member of the opposite sex that impacts on the level of intimacy in the relationship due to the time and emotional energy they are investing in that friendship. Often someone in an EA will discuss problems in their relationship with the friend, rather than working on the problem with their spouse / partner.


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

The Renegade said:


> If it's romantic feelings, could it be considered then as the pre-phase to a PA? (the targeted outcome would still be a PA, right?)


I thought I was in a pseudo-EA with my best friend, but one poster said that by my responses there was nothing pseudo about it. There is no targeted outcome in my situation because the OM and I only speak via texting and have sine we met (online). There are feelings between us now, conversation between us has escalated to an inappropriate level in the past 6 months, but we both agreed to take a step back and focus on our friendship because that has always been more important.

Excluding the recent line-crossing, I didn't feel as though I was having an EA because both of us are trying to help each other with our marriages not meet up for a PA or jump ship on our marriages to be together.

So I guess my understanding was wrong.:scratchhead:


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

sorry to say you are in an EA, read entropy3000 posts, he knows his stuff regarding EA's.

You do know you have to go no contact with this person, a line has been crossed, you can not be just friends. whats more improtant to you, your friendship or your marriage? if they were just helping you with your marriage, you can go see a counsler for that.


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> A secret relationship between someone in a committed relationship and a member of the opposite sex that impacts on the level of intimacy in the relationship due to the time and emotionally energy they are investing in that friendship. Often someone in an EA will discuss problems in their relationship with the friend, rather than working on the problem with their spouse / partner.


Ok see this is interesting to read, and that's been my own definition as well.


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

strugglinghusband said:


> sorry to say you are in an EA, read entropy3000 posts, he knows his stuff regarding EA's.
> 
> You do know you have to go no contact with this person, a line has been crossed, you can not be just friends. whats more improtant to you, your friendship or your marriage? if they were just helping you with your marriage, you can go see a counsler for that.



I'm not going to hijack the OP's thread, but there's a lot more to it than that.


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## The Renegade (May 16, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> A secret relationship between someone in a committed relationship and a member of the opposite sex that impacts on the level of intimacy in the relationship due to the time and emotionally energy they are investing in that friendship. Often someone in an EA will discuss problems in their relationship with the friend, rather than working on the problem with their spouse / partner.


That reads very plausible. Thanks. 

But then again: I assume EAs outside a relationship happen usually when there is no great intimacy within the relationship in first place. (Would love for someone to tell me I'm wrong here).

And if so, then it is, I believe, very commonplace for many people to look for advice on their relationship problems with people outside. I believe, when, say, two women are discussing for hours problems in their relationships on a level they would not talk to their spouses, it is not an EA. 

Why is it then so worrisome between two people of the opposite sex. Seems to me, because the PA hangs already in the air.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

The Renegade said:


> That reads very plausible. Thanks.
> 
> But then again: I assume EAs outside a relationship happen usually when there is no great intimacy within the relationship in first place. (Would love for someone to tell me I'm wrong here).
> 
> ...


Because intimacy begets more intimacy. Unless a person is homosexual, this is unlikely to turn into a PA, but between members of the opposite sex, it can and does happen.

EAs don't always (but obviously can) happen because of lack of intimacy in a relationship, but can certainly contribute towards the breakdown of one.

The last thing to help a relationship that is in difficulties is to embark on anything that has the potential to damage it further.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Cosmos said:


> A secret relationship between someone in a committed relationship and a member of the opposite sex that impacts on the level of intimacy in the relationship due to the time and emotional energy they are investing in that friendship. Often someone in an EA will discuss problems in their relationship with the friend, rather than working on the problem with their spouse / partner.


Well said. Emotional infidelity would proceed and emotional affair. Other than with a trained professional, taking one's marital issues to an outsider rather than to one's partner is infidelity. Unfortunately this is so common it is considered to be OK.


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Well said. Emotional infidelity would proceed and emotional affair. Other than with a trained professional, *taking one's marital issues to an outsider rather than to one's partner is infidelity.* Unfortunately this is so common it is considered to be OK.


So are you really saying that getting advice from anyone (friends, family, people on a website) who isn't a trained professional is infidelity?


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> A secret relationship between someone in a committed relationship and a member of the opposite sex that impacts on the level of intimacy in the relationship due to the time and emotional energy they are investing in that friendship. Often someone in an EA will discuss problems in their relationship with the friend, rather than working on the problem with their spouse / partner.


I like this definition as sufficient for answering the basic question. 

I don't think there's automatically a lack of intimacy in the primary relationship in order for a person to get involved in an EA, though a lack of intimacy certainly makes it more likely. A person who is happy with their primary relationship could still meet someone unexpectedly who happens to touch a nerve in them that they want to itch - a longing for excitement, perhaps.



alwaysoverwhelmed said:


> So are you really saying that getting advice from anyone (friends, family, people on a website) who isn't a trained professional is infidelity?


Going to friends, families, or forums isn't likely to build the kind of intimacy that has the person fantasizing romance with someone outside their marriage. Also, friends, families, and forums are more likely to turn the person back to working on the problems with their partner, but when an EA begins, there is a conflict of interest that prevents sound advice from taking place. If I want to be with you, am I really going to help you get your marriage back to great so that I won't ever be able to act on those fantasies of romance?


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## LastDance (Jun 8, 2012)

Short answer: IF you are doing anything you would not want your partner to know about then you are likely on a very slippery slope. Maybe this will help you see if you are having an EA. Looks like it will only take a few minutes. Maybe it will give you more insight. 


http://http://www.shirleyglass.com/quizfriendship.php

Best of luck to you.


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> Going to friends, families, or forums isn't likely to build the kind of intimacy that has the person fantasizing romance with someone outside their marriage. Also, friends, families, and forums are more likely to turn the person back to working on the problems with their partner, but when an EA begins, there is a conflict of interest that prevents sound advice from taking place. I*f I want to be with you, am I really going to help you get your marriage back to great so that I won't ever be able to act on those fantasies of romance?*


Actually that's exactly the case with my best friend of 5 years (OM mentioned in my background thread). My spouse has always been the first person I speak to about an issue, but he no longer likes to communicate with me about much of anything. Due to that, I seek input from others (after trying to talk to him) to see if I'm being subjective and not letting my feelings and emotions interfere too much with my thoughts. My family gives less sound advice than my best friend has in terms of marriage saving/defense. They would have rather I jumped ship years ago. 

That must mean that what I'm experiencing is an exception to the normal flow of things, right?


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## sculley (Jun 6, 2012)

To me an EA is when you confide in someone of the opposite sex and you start talking to them more than your SO...When another man or woman takes the place that your spouse should be fufilling to me that is an EA


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

alwaysoverwhelmed said:


> So are you really saying that getting advice from anyone (friends, family, people on a website) who isn't a trained professional is infidelity?


No, I'm not advocating that it isn't OK to discuss marital issues with anyone other than a trained professional. But I do believe it isn't a good idea to discuss such things with someone who could be perceived as a potential threat to the relationship. Secret conversations with members of the opposite sex have the potential to do just that.


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

LastDance said:


> Short answer: IF you are doing anything you would not want your partner to know about then you are likely on a very slippery slope. Maybe this will help you see if you are having an EA. Looks like it will only take a few minutes. Maybe it will give you more insight.
> 
> 
> http://http://www.shirleyglass.com/quizfriendship.php
> ...


I got a 3-4 due to the way one of the questions was worded.




Cosmos said:


> No, I'm not advocating that it isn't OK to discuss marital issues with anyone other than a trained professional. But I do believe it isn't a good idea to discuss such things with someone who could be perceived as a potential threat to the relationship. Secret conversations with members of the opposite sex have the potential to do just that.


Oh ok that makes more sense to me. Thank you.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

An emotional affair involves feelings/the heart.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

LastDance said:


> http://http://www.shirleyglass.com/quizfriendship.php


That is a GREAT quiz in how it assesses whether it's an EA or not.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

alwaysoverwhelmed said:


> So are you really saying that getting advice from anyone (friends, family, people on a website) who isn't a trained professional is infidelity?


Getting advice from friends and family on what kind of cake to serve or what flowers to buy is not a problem. Getting advice from friends or family on marital conflict is dangerous especially if you haven't expressed your feelings to your spouse. A third person is now secretly receiving communication that should be directed to your mate. How is your spouse going to feel when you would rather share your feelings with a friend or relative rather than them? How can they act on your complaint when you haven't even shared it with them? How would your partner feel about the way you describe them to an outsider when they are not there to tell their side of the story? I have personally had a lot of this stuff done to me and I didn't like it one bit. 

Infidelity is defined as disloyalty or a breach of trust. Is it loyal to go around talking about someone behind their back? Did your spouse give you complete discretion to tell your friends and family whatever you want about your relationship? I'll bet not and if you do it they will probably consider it a breach of trust.


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## Good Dog (Mar 28, 2012)

The quiz is good to get people thinking about what kind of "friendship" they have, but I'm not as sold on it as some folks are because it leaves the range of 1-6 points as "maybe an EA." My wife was regarded by our two different counselors as having had an EA, but she only scored a point on 5-6 of those questions when she took it a while back (she found one of the questions ambiguous so could have answered either way she said). I don't mean to say it has no value, but an EA can take certain forms while still not hitting the 7-8 points needed to be a full EA according to that quiz. I think the quiz works for many or maybe even most people's EA though, I admit. But honestly, someone could do only 4 or so of those listed items and still be having an EA in my opinion, but the quiz just says maybe it's bad.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

KathyBatesel said:


> friends, families, and forums are more likely to turn the person back to working on the problems with their partner


Kathy,

I know your heart is in the right place, but in 2012, in my humble opinion, friends, family and forums are equally likely to advise someone to withdraw into their aloneness as they are to advise someone to work effectively with their partner.


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## LastDance (Jun 8, 2012)

alwaysoverwhelmed said:


> Actually that's exactly the case with my best friend of 5 years (OM mentioned in my background thread). My spouse has always been the first person I speak to about an issue, but he no longer likes to communicate with me about much of anything. Due to that, I seek input from others (after trying to talk to him) to see if I'm being subjective and not letting my feelings and emotions interfere too much with my thoughts. My family gives less sound advice than my best friend has in terms of marriage saving/defense. They would have rather I jumped ship years ago.
> 
> That must mean that what I'm experiencing is an exception to the normal flow of things, right?


I would think you are in the minority. I don't think it is impossible to be best friends with someone of the opposite sex. I have had a few close male friends through the years, and didn't go there either [PA]. But I will admit I did have some thoughts[not all the time, but enough I noticed them] that I don't like to admit. The "I wonder if... I wonder how it would be..." kind. Luckily I found myself doing that and put on the brakes. I was lucky. But not everyone is as observant or as lucky.


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Getting advice from friends and family on what kind of cake to serve or what flowers to buy is not a problem. Getting advice from friends or family on marital conflict is dangerous especially if you haven't expressed your feelings to your spouse. A third person is now secretly receiving communication that should be directed to your mate. How is your spouse going to feel when you would rather share your feelings with a friend or relative rather than them? How can they act on your complaint when you haven't even shared it with them? How would your partner feel about the way you describe them to an outsider when they are not there to tell their side of the story? I have personally had a lot of this stuff done to me and I didn't like it one bit.
> 
> Infidelity is defined as disloyalty or a breach of trust. Is it loyal to go around talking about someone behind their back? Did your spouse give you complete discretion to tell your friends and family whatever you want about your relationship? I'll bet not and if you do it they will probably consider it a breach of trust.


As I said in my later post, outside help was only sought after trying to talk with my spouse and being shut down. As for them not being able to tell their side of the story, I believe fully in not demonizing people to others, especially if they are not present. If I ask for advice I make sure include things that I have done as well because it helps people have a better impression of what's going on. I have never had a problem "fessing up" to my wrongdoing.

In my case, my H hates that I talk to anyone about anything going on in our life. However, he does the exact same thing! The only difference is that it doesn't bother me.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Kathy,
> 
> I know your heart is in the right place, but in 2012, in my humble opinion, friends, family and forums are equally likely to advise someone to withdraw into their aloneness as they are to advise someone to work effectively with their partner.


Good point. Based on the BIASED info I gave my family, most of them were leaning toward my leaving my husband. I never told them I was involved in EAs while I was in them. It wasn't until I came out of the fog and tried working things out with him that I came clean with them AND I told them I won't be confiding such things to them. I have a couple friends approved by my husband whom I may speak with. And, when trying to learn how to help HIM I can speak with his therapist. Same applies with him. There is a male friend of ours who he speaks with, and if I ever get my own therapist (still working on that because of insurance) he will be allowed to sit in sometimes. Hopefully, that will help us out. But the main thing is that if someone's attention takes away from the marital relationship, that friendship needs to end... IF the you (or I) value the marriage. I had to remove friends for that reason, by my own choice. I value my marriage much more than my friendships. My loyalty lies with my husband, not another friend. If my loyalty is divided, my marriage suffers.


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## hldnhope (Apr 10, 2012)

To me an EA is anyone your spouse confides in instead of you...not necessarily opposite sex. For me it was my W 'best friend'-female. She would get all her emotional needs from this person instead of me...doesn't always have to be sexual in nature...


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

alwaysoverwhelmed said:


> As I said in my later post, outside help was only sought after trying to talk with my spouse and being shut down. As for them not being able to tell their side of the story, I believe fully in not demonizing people to others, especially if they are not present. If I ask for advice I make sure include things that I have done as well because it helps people have a better impression of what's going on. I have never had a problem "fessing up" to my wrongdoing.
> 
> In my case, my H hates that I talk to anyone about anything going on in our life. However, he does the exact same thing! The only difference is that it doesn't bother me.


Sure. I completely understand. I'm just not sure you are doing yourself any favors. These outsiders don't have to live with the advice they give.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

effess said:


> I would classify it has having romantic feelings for someone else of the opposite sex who isn't ur spouse. also ur spouse is spending an abnormal amount of time with this other person. so whether that's face to face, thru email, IM , Facebook etc.


The romantic feelings occur in a very subtle way. Those in an EA do not perceive them as inappropriate at least at the beginning. In essence you are falling in love with your friend. Realize that one loves their friends already. Meaning the makings of an EA exist at the outset. This type of love provides the oxytocin. The oxytocin lowers our guard. Our boundaries can become compromised.

There are any number of ways things can slowly become inappropirate. Without super strong boundaries along the way there is really little reason for it not to progress. 

The best way in my opinion to avoid this is not to play this game at all. I speak as someone who has been there. That experience changed my whole mind on this and opposite sex friends. It is essentially a requirement in an EA to think you are immune to them. The friendship morph inperceptively into dating the other person. It is much less likely for a person involved in these to see this. Their spouse usually can however. The person in the EA will be honest in saying that this is just a close friend. They are in denial.

Allowing needs to be met by others and meeting the needs of others powers the EA.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> The best way in my opinion to avoid this is not to play this game at all.


:iagree:

But I will say that not everyone in an EA (at the beginning of one) isn't "blind" to the feeling/connection. It can be something small you have in common w/ someone. Or maybe the same sense of humor, etc. Because let's face it--some people are aware they connect with someone on some level... so that is why the "avoiding" it altogether is the solution. If you feel, and especially if you feel, any sort of connection with someone--stay fvcking far away if you are married/partnered.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

The Renegade said:


> If it's romantic feelings, could it be considered then as the pre-phase to a PA? (the targeted outcome would still be a PA, right?)


The damage is done during the EA. Many EAs turn into PAs. But the time to stop this is in the inappropriate phase.

Inappropriate Behavior -> Unfaithfulness -> Cheating

The PA would occur somewhere in the cheating phase. But realize that the affair partners may have no intention of being unfaithful let alone cheating at the beginning. It starts with poor boundaries and manifests itself in inappropriate behavior. Dating starts here. Hiding the dating is during unfaithfulness.
One can argue that is cheating already and I would no argument, but unfaithfulness is more general. Lying is unfaithful.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

alwaysoverwhelmed said:


> I thought I was in a pseudo-EA with my best friend, but one poster said that by my responses there was nothing pseudo about it. There is no targeted outcome in my situation because the OM and I only speak via texting and have sine we met (online). There are feelings between us now, conversation between us has escalated to an inappropriate level in the past 6 months, but we both agreed to take a step back and focus on our friendship because that has always been more important.
> 
> Excluding the recent line-crossing, I didn't feel as though I was having an EA because both of us are trying to help each other with our marriages not meet up for a PA or jump ship on our marriages to be together.
> 
> So I guess my understanding was wrong.:scratchhead:


Yes, you were in an EA. You were bonding with another person by sharing intimate things about your marriage. That is bad on many levels. Confiding in a same sex friend is not the same as an opposite sex friend. If your best male friend is not your husband you are already upside down on things. Having close opposite sex friends is tempting fate. Inappropriate IMO. Once you have secrets with another man from you husband you are pretty much being unfaithful.

My wife is my best friend period. I need to be at least her best male friend. She has a BFF female friend she grew up with. I am fine with her being my wifes best female friend. I think people need both. I just feel the best opposite sex friend needs to be their spouse. In fact it seems ludicrous to me if they are not.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> :iagree:
> 
> *But I will say that not everyone in an EA (at the beginning of one) isn't "blind" to the feeling/connection. *It can be something small you have in common w/ someone. Or maybe the same sense of humor, etc. Because let's face it--some people are aware they connect with someone on some level... so that is why the "avoiding" it altogether is the solution. If you feel, and especially if you feel, any sort of connection with someone--stay fvcking far away if you are married/partnered.


I agree. I do think there are inappropriate rationaizations involved. Some folks are naive. Some folks realize they are in over their heads but do not want to stop. Yes, it is not black and white but rather a slurry of things. The actions are being driven by the good feelings they have from the brain chemicals. Poor choices occur where the priority of those choices is changing from being faithful to a spouse and more faithful to the rush. Bad stuff. Humbling stuff. Stupid stuff.

Maybe they realize they should not be doing this but their ego gets involved. I can stop anytime I want. I just don't want ot stop now.

Yes, you are correct. There are choices made all along the way. But it becomes moving friction. A slippery slope. This is a fall from innocence. The APs choose to ignore the signs and can for a time be in denial. But as things move along innocence erodes.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> A secret relationship between someone in a committed relationship and a member of the opposite sex that impacts on the level of intimacy in the relationship due to the time and emotional energy they are investing in that friendship. Often someone in an EA will discuss problems in their relationship with the friend, rather than working on the problem with their spouse / partner.


This is dead on.

I would add that the friendship may be absolutely in the clear for all to see. But a secret relationship can occur within this one. Others can eventually see it for what it really is.

Sometimes a person will hide the relationship completely. To me this is very sinister. To keep it hidden from the start says something about intent.


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## OneLoveXo (Jun 5, 2012)

alwaysoverwhelmed said:


> I thought I was in a pseudo-EA with my best friend, but one poster said that by my responses there was nothing pseudo about it. There is no targeted outcome in my situation because the OM and I only speak via texting and have sine we met (online). There are feelings between us now, conversation between us has escalated to an inappropriate level in the past 6 months, but we both agreed to take a step back and focus on our friendship because that has always been more important.
> 
> Excluding the recent line-crossing, I didn't feel as though I was having an EA because both of us are trying to help each other with our marriages not meet up for a PA or jump ship on our marriages to be together.
> 
> So I guess my understanding was wrong.:scratchhead:


Definitely an EA, if you started feeling feeling for this person, you're having an EA. Thats how they always start, a talk, a meet up, and than a PA.

You shouldn't have feeling like that for anyone else bur your wife, but if you do you need to start and realize why you're feeling these feelings-are you lonely, is your wife not giving you something, etc. OR if you're feeling this feelings because you are REALLY in love with your wife anymore.

EA is as bad as PA. Figure out the bottom of your problem. And figure out what YOU really want. Who is more important this woman or your wife? If it's your wife than end that lil friendship of yours, it will only lead to no good.
And if you even think there is a chance with that other woman, or if you feel feeling for her than end your marriage. Don't waste your wives nor your own time and don't even risk of hurting her like this.

Find out the exact reason for your unhapiness and this EA and do something about it. If you want to continue this EA than file for divorce, because give it a year or two and it will turn into PA with this lady or someone else.


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## OneLoveXo (Jun 5, 2012)

alwaysoverwhelmed said:


> Ok see this is interesting to read, and that's been my own definition as well.


This is your excuse for seeing it that way. But you clearly are having EMOTIONS for this OTHER woman-not just talking to her and confining in her, that is a NO NO, and might as well be cheating.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Good Dog said:


> Yes, this is what bothers me about my wife's EA so much even after we've worked on our marriage for so long. She was leaving this guy out of discussions about events he attended intentionally and well before the EA was active. I can almost understand the lying once things were definitely inappropriate. But I've never accepted the lying so far in advance of there being anything apparently wrong. It left him a ton of time to work on getting what he wanted from her, and she aided him in this rather than it being something that developed over time like in some other EAs.


I am with you brother. That is actually being unfaithful from the start.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

alwaysoverwhelmed said:


> So are you really saying that getting advice from anyone (friends, family, people on a website) who isn't a trained professional is infidelity?


Any man not your close relative. How about that? An exception would be a trained professional formally engaged by you. Meaning do not share with your doctor friend either.

You are looking to have needs met in an inappropriate and risky way. Yes, I see this as being unfaithful. Not even a gray area for me.

Be aware if this is an actively ongoing situation you will not see it for what it is until you go NC and go through withdrawal. Your intergity is compromised. You are under the influence of chemicals. Been there.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Well said. Emotional infidelity would proceed and emotional affair. Other than with a trained professional, taking one's marital issues to an outsider rather than to one's partner is infidelity. Unfortunately this is so common it is considered to be OK.


My H thinks its ok to do this, even with our past infidelity issues.

That is why I'm moving out and divorcing him. 

Friendship over wife??? Yeah right, I'm out. Not going down the road of another PA in a few months since he won't cut contact.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

alwaysoverwhelmed said:


> I'm not going to hijack the OP's thread, but there's a lot more to it than that.


Open your own thread then please. But your comments are totally consistent with this thread IMO. It is a great example.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

KathyBatesel said:


> I don't think there's automatically a lack of intimacy in the primary relationship in order for a person to get involved in an EA, though a lack of intimacy certainly makes it more likely. A person who is happy with their primary relationship could still meet someone unexpectedly who happens to touch a nerve in them that they want to itch - a longing for excitement, perhaps.
> 
> CORRECT -- An affair partner only has to meet some small number of needs EAs can happen in very good marriages. We keep seeing folks who insist they need a whole stable of close oppostie sex friendships for some reason. They have some need for this being filled.
> 
> Going to friends, families, or forums isn't likely to build the kind of intimacy that has the person fantasizing romance with someone outside their marriage. Also, friends, families, and forums are more likely to turn the person back to working on the problems with their partner, but when an EA begins, there is a *conflict of interest* that prevents sound advice from taking place. If I want to be with you, am I really going to help you get your marriage back to great so that I won't ever be able to act on those fantasies of romance?


Though many will deny this again and again there is an immediate conflict of interest just because of gender.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

E3000 was wondering when you would get here...
you are so spot on....


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

alwaysoverwhelmed said:


> Actually that's exactly the case with my best friend of 5 years (OM mentioned in my background thread). My spouse has always been the first person I speak to about an issue, but he no longer likes to communicate with me about much of anything. Due to that, I seek input from others (after trying to talk to him) to see if I'm being subjective and not letting my feelings and emotions interfere too much with my thoughts. My family gives less sound advice than my best friend has in terms of marriage saving/defense. They would have rather I jumped ship years ago.
> 
> That must mean that what I'm experiencing is an exception to the normal flow of things, right?


No. This sounds like a typical EA. If your best male friend is not your husband you have other issues. You are rationalizing now which is another check mark indicating you are in pretty deep. You should not be confiding in an OM about your marriage. The fact that he is your best friend is very disconcerting.

You do realize that you guys have probably destroyed you friendship by this? Meaning you are going to have to go NC with each other so you can witdraw ... forever. You do not want to hear this,.

A requiremnet for an EA is that you think your are immune or somehow different. CHECK

Also realize that this relationship is going to push you further from your husband. Why? Because your internal dialogue has to rationalize your feelings for the OM. So it is called history rewriting. You are having marital problems so you are connecting with another man. Nothing too complicated about it. Yes your are confused in your mind because of your feelings.

if you are torn apart by the idea of losing your friend then that should tell you something. You will try to rationalize how important a friend is and so on. Indeed he is very important to you. That is the problem.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It is anyone you become obsessed with spending time with, about which you do NOT tell your spouse. If your spouse knows about all the time you spend with this person, knows what you talk about, and knows what you do, it's not an EA. Just an open marriage.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

alwaysoverwhelmed said:


> Actually that's exactly the case with my best friend of 5 years (OM mentioned in my background thread). My spouse has always been the first person I speak to about an issue, but he no longer likes to communicate with me about much of anything. Due to that, I seek input from others (after trying to talk to him) to see if I'm being subjective and not letting my feelings and emotions interfere too much with my thoughts. *My family gives less sound advice than my best friend has in terms of marriage saving/defense. They would have rather I jumped ship years ago.
> 
> That must mean that what I'm experiencing is an exception to the normal flow of things, right?*


Nope, as Entropy said, you are rationalizing here. My second EA started with a friend who was giving advice on how to improve things with my husband. Little by little, it became less about my husband and me and more about this guy and me...our mutual likes and dislikes, music, kids, everything. My husband and I were both friends with this guy and I thought talking to him would be ok because my husband had informed him of some of the issues he had been having. So, I just picked up where hubby left off...and it grew bigger and bigger. I never thought this would happen, not after the first one. I actually never expected the first one to happen. But this guy became my best friend. I told him everything. It started out with advice regarding my marriage, and eventually ended with him influencing pretty much every decision in my life, more than my husband was. By rationalizing that it "must mean what [you are] experiencing is an exception" to the norm, you are deluding yourself. Been there, done that... And I am in the process, STILL of repairing. Not just my actions, but my husband's. He got involved with a woman in the same manner. I thought it would be ok for my husband to have a female friend to confide in. That was while I was in my EA fog. Once that fog lifted and I saw what was BEGINNING with my husband, I knew where it was headed and it was ended because he knew, just as I finally did, that our marriage is more important than ANY friendship...whether 2 months or 20 years. It doesn't matter. Your loyalty is to your husband, not your friend.

Sorry for the hijack, Renegade


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> That is a GREAT quiz in how it assesses whether it's an EA or not.


Shirley Glass, she had infidelity's number. I was so disappointed to learn she died nearly ten years ago. She would have had so much to share on the role of technology--the new frontier for boundaries in marriage, an area very few people give much thought to before saying "I do"


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Is she the one who wrote Not Just Friends?

I just want to say that I took that quiz re: my own EA... and I got an 8 on it--completely maxed out the points. That is why I think that quiz is spot on. Just my experience.

It just goes to show--if someone other than your spouse starts meeting your needs and you willingly allow it -- you need to seriously back off and focus on your marriage and your marriage alone.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Is she the one who wrote Not Just Friends?
> 
> I just want to say that I took that quiz re: my own EA... and I got an 8 on it--completely maxed out the points. That is why I think that quiz is spot on. Just my experience.
> 
> It just goes to show--if someone other than your spouse starts meeting your needs and you willingly allow it -- you need to seriously back off and focus on your marriage and your marriage alone.


Yes.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Is she the one who wrote Not Just Friends?
> 
> *I just want to say that I took that quiz re: my own EA... and I got an 8 on it--completely maxed out the points. That is why I think that quiz is spot on. Just my experience.*
> 
> It just goes to show--if someone other than your spouse starts meeting your needs and you willingly allow it -- you need to seriously back off and focus on your marriage and your marriage alone.


I took the quiz too. Got a 6 or 7, I believe, for mine. The thing is, if you throw out a couple of the questions...the ones regarding seeing them, meeting up in person, well, that didn't apply because of distance. However, if dropping those questions, you drop the total as well, and in doing so, I maxed as well. And, speculating as to how it would play out if we DID meet in person.... still would have maxed out. So, yes, spot on.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

If Renegade doesn't have a problem, I think it's actually very instructive to have alwaysoverwhelmed posting here. Her descriptions of her relationship show many of the classic signs of the emotional affair

friendship
with someone to whom she's sexually attracted
that discusses private marital issues
in exchange for mutual caring and support.

In his book His Needs / Her Needs, Dr. Harley, an incredibly well-respected therapist who is an advocate for couples to reignite romantic love in their marriage as a way for avoiding divorce, says that these ingredients are ALL IT TAKES to become deeply infatuated with someone. 

Infatuation is a very powerful emotion, and it's typified by people being in denial as to the power it has over THEM because people in emotional affairs often think they are "special" and "unique" and the usual rules don't apply. In fact, if someone were to say that to me ("we recognize the danger but we're unusually strong about our boundaries so no worries about us") it would (no offense) make me laugh until I snorted soda out my nose.

Note I don't use the word love. This type of relationship isn't tested by the realities of every-day life. You avoid conflict and make great effort to find agreement because arguments would diminish the fun of the relationship. So there is the false appearance of a unified front. This leads to emotional affairs partners believing they were "meant for each other" (and when it gets really bad, soulmates) but this is an illusion created by circumstances.



alwaysoverwhelmed said:


> As I said in my later post, outside help was only sought after trying to talk with my spouse and being shut down. As for them not being able to tell their side of the story, I believe fully in not demonizing people to others, especially if they are not present. If I ask for advice I make sure include things that I have done as well because it helps people have a better impression of what's going on. I have never had a problem "fessing up" to my wrongdoing.
> 
> In my case, my H hates that I talk to anyone about anything going on in our life. However, he does the exact same thing! The only difference is that it doesn't bother me.


Entropy said it so well. This man has a conflict of interest--he is sexually attracted to you. You are no judge of his objectivity in his advice or playing the role of sounding board--and he isn't either of you.

Emotional affairs are insidious--they start out as 'harmless' friendships. This allows someone like you to lie to themselves about the true nature of the affair. You don't realize it, but each additional layer of detail you've provided only serves to clarify how much your situation lines up. Sorry about that.

As others have said, you've established an emotional bond that will require no contact to prevent further betrayal of the marriage--which happens every time you tell him something that happened between you and your husband that your husband would reasonably expect you not to share with a sexually attracted member of the opposite sex.

Also, the bond between you tends to feed on itself, that is, in a subconscious effort to mirror one another and find commonalities, there is a tendency to exaggerate the problems in your marriage and to find reasons to seek "advice." This leads to a cycle of deliberately finding fault in your husband that you then run off to tell to this man. So much for "solving" your marriage problems.

But I know you won't see yourself in this picture; so you need to read the book Not Just Friends more than most people on this board--and that's saying something.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

iheart nailed it.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> iheart nailed it.


:iagree:

What was mentioned in how people justify the "friendship" is everything my H was saying about his "friendship". Its like a script....always like a script 

Don't mean to be so negative in my posts today but reading all the EA stuff just confirms what I've known to be true and what me H won't admit.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

turnera said:


> It is anyone you become obsessed with spending time with, about which you do NOT tell your spouse. If your spouse knows about all the time you spend with this person, knows what you talk about, and knows what you do, it's not an EA. Just an open marriage.


Wow. Tell it like it is. Well done.

Indeed. I agree. It is either an EA or an open marriage. Yes.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> The romantic feelings occur in a very subtle way. Those in an EA do not perceive them as inappropriate at least at the beginning. In essence you are falling in love with your friend. Realize that one loves their friends already. Meaning the makings of an EA exist at the outset. This type of love provides the oxytocin. The oxytocin lowers our guard. Our boundaries can become compromised...
> 
> .


Precisely, Entropy. And if a relationship is already on shaky ground, it can be very flattering to have a member of the opposite sex batting in our corner... Getting our egos stroked in this manner can also take the focus away from trying to fix what is wrong in our relationship.


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

Contrary to what anyone may think, I completely understand what you're saying and recognize the situation for what it is. I don't mind being made an example of if it can help not only myself but others as well. I've always been interested in what EA's are really all about anyway. This thread has actually been super informative considering I was completely unaware of many of the things posted.

I do not, however, try to find more fault in my husband just to get advice, especially not from the OM. In fact, there are still a lot of things that OM & my other advice go-to people don't know. If anything, I tend to blame myself more for things that I am going through because I feel that I had to have failed my husband in some way for things to have turned out like this.

Things really only got out of control after my husband pulled a knife at Thanksgiving and threatened to kill himself and then after New Year's when he told me that our relationship was over and our marriage was irreparable. I allowed my feelings to shift and crossed the line by seeking emotional comfort and stability in the OM. It was a bad move on my part, but at the time I was feeling emotionally defeated and hopeless. I'm not foolish enough to think that OM and I would have some fairytale life together. He is no Prince Charming, and I am certainly not a damsel in distress.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

iheartlife said:


> *Note I don't use the word love. This type of relationship isn't tested by the realities of every-day life. You avoid conflict and make great effort to find agreement because arguments would diminish the fun of the relationship. So there is the false appearance of a unified front. This leads to emotional affairs partners believing they were "meant for each other" (and when it gets really bad, soulmates) but this is an illusion created by circumstances.*


Awesome post from iheartlife. Every bit. 

I am highlighting this one area because it bares repeating because we don't talk about this aspect very much.

The affair is not true love because it is substantialy artificial. Moreover, it is grossly unfair to the BS who has paid their dues by living real life with the WS, meeting most of their needs for long periods of good and bad. It is easy to be in an EA. You only have to meet some subset of needs and there really ia a very small investment of actual time and resources. There has been no great commitment like from the BS.

It is a fantasy that is compared to their real life. The APs are on their best behavior with each other. There are really no responsibilities. It is a very selfish thing to do.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

alwaysoverwhelmed said:


> Contrary to what anyone may think, I completely understand what you're saying and recognize the situation for what it is. I don't mind being made an example of if it can help not only myself but others as well. I've always been interested in what EA's are really all about anyway. This thread has actually been super informative considering I was completely unaware of many of the things posted.
> 
> I do not, however, try to find more fault in my husband just to get advice, especially not from the OM. In fact, there are still a lot of things that OM & my other advice go-to people don't know. If anything, I tend to blame myself more for things that I am going through because I feel that I had to have failed my husband in some way for things to have turned out like this.
> 
> Things really only got out of control after my husband pulled a knife at Thanksgiving and threatened to kill himself and then after New Year's when he told me that our relationship was over and our marriage was irreparable. I allowed my feelings to shift and crossed the line by seeking emotional comfort and stability in the OM. It was a bad move on my part, but at the time I was feeling emotionally defeated and hopeless. I'm not foolish enough to think that OM and I would have some fairytale life together. He is no Prince Charming, and I am certainly not a damsel in distress.


Things in life can sprial down on us. We do our best. Your marital problems are spread between the two of you. 

I think that the drawing of the knife should not be dismissed. Whether manipulative, a cry for help or just utter despair it needs to be dealt with. I think your husband needs counseling at the least. You probably need MC for the two of you in addition.

I do think this OM needs to go though. He seems to be waiting in the wings for you. Your husand likely sees him as a rival. Ideally you would be able to get some support from close female friends.

----

I have to walk away from this now. It is draining.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

alwaysoverwhelmed, I by no means want to minimize the very serious problems in your marriage.

One serious problem that can occur in marriage is emotional and physical abuse. Spouses who engage in that behavior also often seek to isolate their spouses and to mentally trap them by discouraging them in various ways from seeking outside help.

No one should tolerate abuse; however, the way out of one relationship is never to enter another. People who tolerate bad relationships should instead seek counseling to understand why they allow bad treatment to continue. They often benefit from being alone for some time outside a relationship of any kind to explore who they are as a person and regain their self-worth, which isn't derived from other human beings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

alwaysoverwhelmed said:


> Actually that's exactly the case with my best friend of 5 years (OM mentioned in my background thread). My spouse has always been the first person I speak to about an issue, but he no longer likes to communicate with me about much of anything. Due to that, I seek input from others (after trying to talk to him) to see if I'm being subjective and not letting my feelings and emotions interfere too much with my thoughts. My family gives less sound advice than my best friend has in terms of marriage saving/defense. They would have rather I jumped ship years ago.
> 
> That must mean that what I'm experiencing is an exception to the normal flow of things, right?


Except that the two of you have talked romance - those things you decided to put on the shelf "for now." You admitted you crossed that line, meaning there is a sexual tension there even if you haven't acted upon it. You're seriously not helping your marriage survive and may be harming it. Find someone who has no reason to feel attraction for you - like a counselor - if you want sound advice for your marriage.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Quite often an EA is what a betrayed partner calls a PA when they can't accept the truth that their partner had sex with someone else.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

lenzi said:


> Quite often an EA is what a betrayed partner calls a PA when they can't accept the truth that their partner had sex with someone else.


And then there are the times, like mine and my husband's, when it never went PA... neither of us had sex with our EA partners... unless someone has figured out how to do it 1000+ miles away


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

lenzi said:


> Quite often an EA is what a betrayed partner calls a PA when they can't accept the truth that their partner had sex with someone else.


An EA can be a PA, but a PA can be a stand-alone. The EA just means they have romantic feelings. It's usually used as a shorthand to mean it wasn't PA too, and people sometimes say EA/PA to mean that it was also physical.

The distinctions can get lost on people who haven't been through them.


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## The Renegade (May 16, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> An emotional affair involves feelings/the heart.


But so does friendship - hopefully.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The Renegade said:


> But so does friendship - hopefully.


 But a friendship you will/can/should share with your spouse. That friend should be able and willing to be around your spouse with no reservations and no secrets.


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## The Renegade (May 16, 2012)

turnera said:


> But a friendship you will/can/should share with your spouse. That friend should be able and willing to be around your spouse with no reservations and no secrets.


I agree with that. 

Thank you all for posting. I am really learning a lot here.

In the end, I think the key lies on the word "secret". 

I also believe that the target of an EA is always a PA. Sometimes it is pursued only by one partner in the EA and it will never really come to a PA. It just gets stuck in an EA.

I personally believe, that particularly men are never interested in EAs. But they can stay stuck in an EA for years because they never find at any point that it is the right time to make a move.

Friendship, to me, is also an emotional connection. I am not sure why you shouldn't be able to do anything with somebody of the opposite sex that you couldn't do (or talk about) with somebody of the same sex. Even if it is marriage problems. That is, where marriage would become to restrictive for me (and I really do perceive that as not healthy).

In fact, I know of some people who seek advice especially from someone of the opposite sex on marriage issues, because they acknowledge the difference between the sexes and feel advice from someone of the same sex will not get them any further. They would discuss problems in their marriage with someone outside, of the opposite sex and would still not be telling about it at home. But their focus lies on fixing something in their relationship, not on creating a new one.

I also know of people (particularly women) of the other extreme. They would not allow for themselves to be in any meaningful contact to someone of the opposite sex as there is the slight risk that it could be misunderstood. That, I think, is sad as well.

If, say, I hate to play tennis and my wife loves it. She finds a male partner and they play together twice a week, after that they sit together for a drink to cool down. There is some emotional connection built up. They might discuss things that I don't know about. He might even be interested in her, but that still does not mean they are in any kind of an affair. I, personally, would have no problem with that.

Again, I think, ongoing secrecy or not makes all the difference.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Renegade, I see what you are saying. And, tho both my husband and I have had EAs, we still have friends of the opposite sex. The difference now is that NOTHING is hidden. And, I am more selective of my opposite sex friends, and what I discuss with them. My husband and I have one particular friend who is going thru a nasty divorce. I had befriended the wife in the beginning, until it was shown that she wasn't what she presented. And now, when it comes to the husband, I defer to my husband...for one reason: my history. I don't want to take the chance. It isn't worth jeopardizing my marriage.

And I think that's the big thing... is the friendship causing friction in the marriage? If so, why/ Listen to your spouse, don't just dismiss his or her concerns. If you dismiss your spouse's concerns regarding an uncomfortably close friendship (to the spouse), it shows that your loyalty does not lie with your spouse. 

So, yea, I'd say secrecy and half-truths regarding interaction are definitely big indicators. I mean, your spouse could be friends with the person as well. They could both speak regularly...the difference is the content.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

renegade, the thing you're not seeing is that an affair is insidious. Except for the vampires, no one goes out intending to start an affair. It almost ALWAYS starts with a friend, a coworker, a tennis partner, who notices your spouse, when you take her for granted. Who listens to your spouse, when you're too ingrossed in your video game. Who flatters your spouse, when you don't even notice when she cuts her hair any more. Who sympathizes with your wife, when you see her and think of your own baggage with her and thus you remain silent. 

Bottom line, that friend, that coworker, that tennis partner, makes her feel GOOD. And thus the first step in an affair. Just like heroin, once that first 'taste' is done, there's usually no going back.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

turnera said:


> renegade, the thing you're not seeing is that an affair is insidious. Except for the vampires, no one goes out intending to start an affair. It almost ALWAYS starts with a friend, a coworker, a tennis partner, who notices your spouse, when you take her for granted. Who listens to your spouse, when you're too ingrossed in your video game. Who flatters your spouse, when you don't even notice when she cuts her hair any more. Who sympathizes with your wife, when you see her and think of your own baggage with her and thus you remain silent.
> 
> Bottom line, that friend, that coworker, that tennis partner, makes her feel GOOD. And thus the first step in an affair. Just like heroin, once that first 'taste' is done, there's usually no going back.


Amen!


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## The Renegade (May 16, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Renegade, I see what you are saying. And, tho both my husband and I have had EAs, we still have friends of the opposite sex. The difference now is that NOTHING is hidden. And, I am more selective of my opposite sex friends, and what I discuss with them. My husband and I have one particular friend who is going thru a nasty divorce. I had befriended the wife in the beginning, until it was shown that she wasn't what she presented. And now, when it comes to the husband, I defer to my husband...for one reason: my history. I don't want to take the chance. It isn't worth jeopardizing my marriage.
> 
> And I think that's the big thing... is the friendship causing friction in the marriage? If so, why/ Listen to your spouse, don't just dismiss his or her concerns. If you dismiss your spouse's concerns regarding an uncomfortably close friendship (to the spouse), it shows that your loyalty does not lie with your spouse.
> 
> So, yea, I'd say secrecy and half-truths regarding interaction are definitely big indicators. I mean, your spouse could be friends with the person as well. They could both speak regularly...the difference is the content.


Yes and no. I think, if you unconditionally and without question listen to and implement all concerns your spouse has, you might open another door to emotional abuse from inside your marriage (not saying, that this has to happen). I believe there is a limit here as well.

If one had an old friend and the spouse is uncomfortable with it, would you immediately give the friend up? I think that is not a no-brainer.

I am personally not in any of this situations. I'm really just curious to understand. So far, what an EA really is seems to be a quite fluid concept.


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## The Renegade (May 16, 2012)

turnera said:


> renegade, the thing you're not seeing is that an affair is insidious. Except for the vampires, no one goes out intending to start an affair. It almost ALWAYS starts with a friend, a coworker, a tennis partner, who notices your spouse, when you take her for granted. Who listens to your spouse, when you're too ingrossed in your video game. Who flatters your spouse, when you don't even notice when she cuts her hair any more. Who sympathizes with your wife, when you see her and think of your own baggage with her and thus you remain silent.
> 
> Bottom line, that friend, that coworker, that tennis partner, makes her feel GOOD. And thus the first step in an affair. Just like heroin, once that first 'taste' is done, there's usually no going back.


In that sense, you would have to restrict every contact your partner makes with the outside world. Or, automatically assume that, if he/she is not willing to do this by himself/herself, he/she does not love you enough.

I believe many a marriages suffer exactly because of those efforts or that assumption.

If somebody else makes a spouse feel good, that does not automatically mean, I don't. Maybe we both make him/her feel good and maybe many more people. That would be wonderful to my idea.

In that case, I think the affair is not where it starts. Here is the point that one does not make the partner feel good in first place (or takes him/her for granted). the affair is then the symptom, no matter if EA or PA and one might argue if it can actually be justified (I'm sure a lot of people hit me here and say "An affair is never justified") - just saying.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

The Renegade said:


> Yes and no. I think, if you unconditionally and without question listen to and implement all concerns your spouse has, you might open another door to emotional abuse from inside your marriage (not saying, that this has to happen). I believe there is a limit here as well.
> 
> If one had an old friend and the spouse is uncomfortable with it, would you immediately give the friend up? I think that is not a no-brainer.
> 
> I am personally not in any of this situations. I'm really just curious to understand. So far, what an EA really is seems to be a quite fluid concept.


Hold it. I'm not sure I follow now. Maybe it's because of how late it is, I don't know. In a marriage you should listen to your spouse's concerns. Why would you not hear him or her out when they express concern over something? That is unfathomable. It doesn't mean that you accept if they "lay down the law" so to speak, each and every time. What it means is that if he or she has a concern, you sit and discuss it. You don't just dismiss it as insignificant.

As far as ceasing contact with old friends. I think it IS a no-brainer. My husband's "friend" was supposedly MY friend as well. We knew her for 4 years before their EA started. They maintained "we're just friends"... but I knew the signs because of MY behavior. It follows a pattern, and his was following the pattern. When the choice was given "her or me"...it was a no-brainer. He picked me. His wife. The woman he vowed to spend the rest of his life with. The mother of his children. The woman he loves. And I did the same with a friend I knew for about the same amount of time. Because my marriage was, and is, more important than any outside friendship. He doesn't dictate who my friends are. I don't dictate who his friends are. But we now don't hide anything from each other (surprise parties and presents don't count). 

Not sure if that was what you believed I was saying or not... that the spouses pick each others friends, etc. But that wasn't what I was saying at all.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

The Renegade said:


> In that case, I think the affair is not where it starts. Here is the point that one does not make the partner feel good in first place (or takes him/her for granted). the affair is then the symptom, no matter if EA or PA and one might argue if it can actually be justified (I'm sure a lot of people hit me here and say "An affair is never justified") - just saying.


Yes, I've used those very words myself many a time. An affair is a symptom.

But a symptom of what? No one should be so quick to jump on board with the idea that it's always a symptom of x or y.

It is EITHER a symptom of a problem that is in the marriage, and that problem is contributed to by both people

OR it's a symptom of a problem entirely inside the cheater,

OR it's both.

Many affairs are conducted by damaged, broken people. Not all, maybe not even half, but a significant number. It makes sense, if you think about it; they are seeking validation, affirmation, etc. for low self-esteem or other issues of self-respect. Who better to shore this up than multiple people telling them they are sexually attractive? At least, that is what these damaged people tell themselves.

Many other times, of course, it's due to vulnerabilities in the marriage. Or you can have the combination, of a damaged person who alienates the loyal spouse, and then uses the gap as an excuse to cheat.

But to turn to the affair never being justified--just what problems, precisely, are solved by going into an affair? Because that would be the only circumstances under which it is justified. In the United States, a divorce can be readily had. Counseling is readily available and many therapists take clients on a sliding scale based on income. Books can be had at any corner library. No American (at least) can complain that there aren't about a thousand different resources, many of them cheap or free, to aid a troubled marriage. Availing yourself of an affair is cowardice, pure and simple.


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## The Renegade (May 16, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> Yes, I've used those very words myself many a time. An affair is a symptom.
> 
> But a symptom of what? No one should be so quick to jump on board with the idea that it's always a symptom of x or y.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with what you're saying. I also think it is the honest and honorable thing to do to break up a relationship that one doesn't see fit anymore before any affair starts.

And that's quite obvious when it comes to PAs. The understanding of what an EA is compared to a close friendship, however, seems to vary. Some partners are more tolerant than others. 

And that is also to follow up on Maricha's post. I've been once in a relationship some time ago where she aimed to control every contact I had on the outside (actually cut it off). She saw an affair in everything where I had no intentions whatsoever. Therefore, I mentioned, it's probably not always a no-brainer to follow what your partner is concerned with. 

You wrote that in your post. Discussing it, not necessarily accepting what the other one sees as law. So, I believe, we are on the same track here.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

The Renegade said:


> But so does friendship - hopefully.


That is why friendships with the opposite sex are by their nature are an emotional bond. 

But there is a distinction here that is determined by the brain chemicals.

Both a friendship and and EA have oxytocin in common. But an EA has dopamine at work.
Dopamine is the euphoria. The cacain chemical. One starts with increasing the oxytocin which leads to the dopamine. 

EA partners are friends first. So many folks in an EA do not realize that saying I love you and miss you is inappropriate because we do love and miss our friends. However, in an EA these feelings for the AP are like overnight. Meaning that have an obsession to see them now. Being apart hours is tough. That is not a friendship. That is an EA. When a freindship rivals the primary relationship you know you have an EA. Defending a friendship to a spouse in the face of a divorce over it, validates that this friendship is something that has surpassed the primary relationship.

Hanging out with oppisite sex friends doing dating type things ... is dataing. Intent does not matter at all. I repeat for emphasis it has nothing to do with intent. if you are doing dating things with another and say no no we are just friends ... you are dating and in denial. That is an EA.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

The Renegade said:


> I agree with that.
> 
> Thank you all for posting. I am really learning a lot here.
> 
> ...


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

turnera said:


> renegade, the thing you're not seeing is that an affair is insidious. Except for the vampires, no one goes out intending to start an affair. It almost ALWAYS starts with a friend, a coworker, a tennis partner, who notices your spouse, when you take her for granted. Who listens to your spouse, when you're too ingrossed in your video game. Who flatters your spouse, when you don't even notice when she cuts her hair any more. Who sympathizes with your wife, when you see her and think of your own baggage with her and thus you remain silent.
> 
> Bottom line, that friend, that coworker, that tennis partner, makes her feel GOOD. And thus the first step in an affair. Just like heroin, once that first 'taste' is done, there's usually no going back.


More pure Gold. This is the absolute truth.

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

The Renegade said:


> Yes and no. I think, if you unconditionally and without question listen to and implement all concerns your spouse has, you might open another door to emotional abuse from inside your marriage (not saying, that this has to happen). I believe there is a limit here as well.
> 
> *If one had an old friend and the spouse is uncomfortable with it, would you immediately give the friend up?* I think that is not a no-brainer.
> 
> I am personally not in any of this situations. I'm really just curious to understand. So far, what an EA really is seems to be a quite fluid concept.


I would ultimately get rid ot the old long time friend. I think you should talk it over and try to work it out first, but ultimately yes you should respect the person you vowed to respect and live the rest of your life with. Your spouse comes first. If you are not willing for this to happen then you really a not commited to the marriage. The thing is that if your spouse does not accept your continued relationship you have to be prepared to end your marriage for the sake of that friendship.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

iheartlife said:


> Yes, I've used those very words myself many a time. An affair is a symptom.
> 
> But a symptom of what? No one should be so quick to jump on board with the idea that it's always a symptom of x or y.
> 
> ...


Sometimes the marriage problems are a symptom of an affair.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

The Renegade said:


> Totally agree with what you're saying. I also think it is the honest and honorable thing to do to break up a relationship that one doesn't see fit anymore before any affair starts.
> 
> And that's quite obvious when it comes to PAs. The understanding of what an EA is compared to a close friendship, however, seems to vary. Some partners are more tolerant than others.
> 
> ...


Not sure what you are saying exactly but just to be clear one does not wait to intervene after a PA. One needs to intervene before unfaithfulness. When things are inappropriate. The best way to deal with this is to not play the game at all. Having opposite sex friends is ok. Having close ones is just too much risk if your marriage is #1. If the marriage is not so important then fine. You might get lucky.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Sometimes the marriage problems are a symptom of an affair.


Great response, although I would argue that if this is the case, then the problems lie somewhere inside the cheater.

The other thing to point out to people reading this (about the affair being a symptom of "something" but not necessarily troubles in the marriage before the affair) is that repairing the marriage is nearly impossible while the affair is going on. That's because the cheater is continuing to channel the majority of their fears / hopes / dreams and most if not all of their affection and frankly ENERGY toward the affair partner. 

Marriage counseling is very hard work, it requires the two people to open up and be vulnerable to each other as perhaps they never have. To turn toward each other. But if you can picture two people on a couch, while one of them is holding hands with someone just outside of the room, you can see why this is a nonstarter.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> That is why friendships with the opposite sex are by their nature are an emotional bond.
> 
> But there is a distinction here that is determined by the brain chemicals.
> 
> ...


To put this into the context of the excellent book His Needs / Her Needs. Dating meets (at least at the beginning) two important needs: the need for intimate conversation, and the need for recreational companionship. Obviously friends can also fulfill these two needs, but a friend isn't going to demonstrate the additional ingredient that leads this relationship into an affair--that is, intimate affection. It is the mere possibility that this may arise in a friendship between sexually attracted people that makes spending time alone a risky choice.

I make choices that will prevent me from getting into situations that may cause me to fall into infatuation with someone. I limit my conversations with these people (I can think of a couple--I'm human!!) to public interactions. But there are probably other men I know who I'm not attracted to--but given the right mix of being alone / intimate conversation / recreation, I could still become infatuated with them. The point is you don't see the danger coming--I'm not different than anyone else--this is the core idea that you either believe, or you don't.

This is how I see it--I am the first guardian of MY OWN HEART, not my husband. I choose to be faithful to him by preventing affairs far ahead of the curve, particularly now that I fully understand how they occur.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

iheartlife said:


> To put this into the context of the excellent book His Needs / Her Needs. Dating meets (at least at the beginning) two important needs: the need for intimate conversation, and the need for recreational companionship. Obviously friends can also fulfill these two needs, but a friend isn't going to demonstrate the additional ingredient that leads this relationship into an affair--that is, intimate affection. It is the mere possibility that this may arise in a friendship between sexually attracted people that makes spending time alone a risky choice.
> 
> I make choices that will prevent me from getting into situations that may cause me to fall into infatuation with someone. I limit my conversations with these people (I can think of a couple--I'm human!!) to public interactions. But there are probably other men I know who I'm not attracted to--but given the right mix of being alone / intimate conversation / recreation, I could still become infatuated with them. The point is you don't see the danger coming--I'm not different than anyone else--this is the core idea that you either believe, or you don't.
> 
> *This is how I see it--I am the first guardian of MY OWN HEART, not my husband. I choose to be faithful to him by preventing affairs far ahead of the curve, particularly now that I fully understand how they occur.*


And this IS the takeaway for folks that it is first on them to protect their relationship by understanding the risks. Since this stuff can be very gray and emotions can drive us, we all need appropriate boundaries. 

So when someone says it is about trust, for me then I trust my wife and she trusts me to not put ourselves in harms way at all. To be savvy enough to avoid these situations. Trust is not about putting oneself at risk and saying trust me to play this dangerous game.

A further safety net is their partner who can sometimes see things from a different point of view. It is not on the partner to be the first line of defense. It is just that we all have our blindspots to certain people and certain situations. We all have our more vulnerable times. Understanding this is key. 

So while there may indeed be spouses who are over zealous, the kneejerk of calling a spouse jealous, insecure and controlling seems to me a red flag about the person using those terms. It just may be that the spouse is observing some risky behavior. A big way to deal with this is to discuss, agree on and implement some fundamental boundaries. Implementing such boundaries and not breaking them is a way to ease such tensions and validate trust. So if you are well within the agreed upon boundaries then you need to find out why your spouse is feeling jealous. If you are pushing your boundaries you have your answer. Stop that.


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