# Vasectomy dilemma.



## cruiser (Jul 8, 2011)

Well my W and I have hit a road bump here. We have 3 kids 11 and under and I am almost 40 and work 2 jobs. We currently use no BC other than pull out. We hate condoms and are against any BC with hormones due to her low drive already. So I brought up me having a V. Well I went for the consult and came home and she waffled on it.

I am def done at 3 kids and now she says that it's too final and maybe we should have one more. Now this is new to me I had told her I was good with 2, then #3 came by accident and she is a blessing. But when can we take control of our lives?

I hate being afraid every month due to poss preg. Condoms suck and I hate pulling out. When we talk about it she crys and I fell bad. I just want to have sex with no worries and no condoms, not to much to ask being married with 3 kids.

Anyone else have trouble convincing their wife on a vasectomy?


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## ViperStorm (Jul 11, 2011)

2 children 11 months apart. Wife had no problem with the V. While it can be reversed you should think of it as final. It really isn't the V but the issue of not having any more children - that is a tough one. It was easy for us, 2 children is what we wanted and we were lucky enough to have a boy and a girl. It's affordable and easy but I would not doing it until she agrees. Tough for you but I think it needs to be a co-decision. I love kids but 2 was enough for us. Listen to others - it is hard on you but I don't know if you want to 'pressure' her to make a decision.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

I think at some point you are going to have to take control and just say no. Otherwise it's "just one more" until she physically can't.

Do you want four kids or not?

Edited to add: I was sad when my husband got the big V. I think that's normal. Even my husband was a little down afterwards. It's a big deal for sure. Bottom line though we knew we were done having kids.


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## Walt (Jul 17, 2011)

Actually, I was the opposite. W begged for the vasectomy as she hated condoms and the Pill messed with her hormones too much.

It made sex much better as that pregnancy was no longer an option/worry.

With 3 kids and 2 jobs, the last thing you need is an accidental pregnancy. She is probably scared that her child bearing stage of life is ending. She may feel like less of a woman because of it. These are the feelings you should address.


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## cruiser (Jul 8, 2011)

I do not want four kids. I was done at 2, #3 was an accident, but she is great. The topic of the V brought up #4, wtf. I had no idea. I feel as though we are struggling to get by with me working 2 jobs and her a SAHM. One more kid will not help things at all.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

No vasectomys here, but hubby and I use VCF. We are very happy with it.


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## cruiser (Jul 8, 2011)

The problem is when I talk to her about it she gets so emotional, tears and all. I just want to do whats best for our family. And me being afraid every month of a preg. is not good. She is getting ready to go back to work so a baby would delay that for years and I may have to get a 3rd job. Just do not know how to talk to her about this.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

VCF link


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

cruiser said:


> The problem is when I talk to her about it she gets so emotional, tears and all. I just want to do whats best for our family. And me being afraid every month of a preg. is not good. She is getting ready to go back to work so a baby would delay that for years and I may have to get a 3rd job. Just do not know how to talk to her about this.


You need to talk to her about maybe just enjoying the ones she has.

Try vcf. Its over the counter and is not permanent like a vasectomy.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

On Atholk's blog he talks about women having more children to prolong sah. <Don't shoot the messenger.> lol 

I just casually saw that the other day. Maybe your wife doesn't want to go back to work.


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## TotoWeRNotInKansasAnymore (Apr 7, 2011)

I swear my ex-husband and the majority of his friend’s belonged the Men’s Vasectomy Club. LOL!!! Seriously, all of the wives gladly chauffeured our husband to and from on the day of their “procedure”. He and I were both done having children. He had two (their mother passed away) and we had another together. Three was plenty for both of us. He was 40 yrs old and I was 32 at the time.

We are no longer married and I still stick to my choice of not wanting to be pregnant again. I love and enjoy children, I’m just personally done with the whole pregnancy and giving birth stuff. 

Since getting back out into the dating world I’ve dated two gentlemen who both had a vasectomy. As far as I was concerned that was a plus in my book for them. It assures me if things do progress in the relationship that we are on the same page with our ideas for future family planning. More simply put, there will be no “Ooppsy … Honey guess what?!”


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## cruiser (Jul 8, 2011)

Problem is moneys getting tight and her going back to work would help a lot. Another baby would be a huge burden now, my stress level is already at a ten. lol.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

My husband had a V 2.5 years ago. It was very "final" and I cried (lol) but...it's the best thing we ever did.


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## TotoWeRNotInKansasAnymore (Apr 7, 2011)

cruiser said:


> Problem is moneys getting tight and her going back to work would help a lot. Another baby would be a huge burden now, my stress level is already at a ten. lol.


Financial situations change all the time, for the better or even for the worse.

The bigger question is, are you done having children?


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## cruiser (Jul 8, 2011)

The thing is that now that we're have sex frequently the preg worry is more because of no BC. I get sick to my stomach every month until she gets her period. I can not go on like this much longer. I want to make love to my wife, I do not want more kids, we hate condoms, and hormonal BC is not an option with us due to her LD. Soooooooooooo frustrated.


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## cruiser (Jul 8, 2011)

I AM DONE. 3 kids, 2 jobs, and almost 40. I need to move on.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

That's why we did it. We are done with 2 kids. Someday we want our life back LOL  

Keep discussing it with your wife. With my husband and I, we figure if we REALLY have the itch for another baby (which I doubt) then we will adopt.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

cruiser said:


> The thing is that now that we're have sex frequently


I suggest you wear TWO condoms.  She's hoping for another "surprise". Just so you know.


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## cruiser (Jul 8, 2011)

The thing is that she knew I wanted 2 kids and I knew she wanted 3. Now we never have a final discussion on number 3. She just happened. I reacted badly at first but she has been a blessing. Now we have 3 kids and I am def done. Our discussion about the V was at first about the moral issues. Now she says what about another baby. WHAT? I don't want to be 60 with a kid in high school. We had kids young and I figured that because of that we would be able to enjoy our retirement young also. But now it seems I'll be losing out on my youth and my early retirement.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

cruiser said:


> The thing is that now that we're have sex frequently the preg worry is more because of no BC. I get sick to my stomach every month until she gets her period. I can not go on like this much longer. I want to make love to my wife, I do not want more kids, we hate condoms, and hormonal BC is not an option with us due to her LD. Soooooooooooo frustrated.


Have you looked in to a non-hormonal IUD for her? ParaGard IUD Contraceptive - Birth Control Options using Intrauterine Conception - ParaGard.

It is not permanent, but they are very effective and can be left in for quite some time. There are some ladies on the board here who have them and seem to have had good luck with them.

What about other birth control options, such as a diaphragm for her? I think you are playing Russian roulette every month and maybe you should be looking in to some non-permanent, non-hormonal options for her.


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## cruiser (Jul 8, 2011)

LOL 2 condoms. Not wearing any now. They suck, would almost rather not make love to her than wear them. I want to make love to my wife with no barriers or chemicals. Is that so bad?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

That was my thing. By getting married, i didn't wnt to worry about condoms and IUDs and birth control. Bleh.

Now we're like teenagers. We don't give a shet. LOL!


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## cruiser (Jul 8, 2011)

I guess my side is I am almost 40. I do not want anymore kids. I want to make the best of what we have now. My wife says that if #4 is brought up I can only think of neg things. But if I am happy with 3 than anything more for me would be a huge amount of extra work.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is my story - and it ended happily - but everyone is different and as always YMMV. 


I think Atholk is mostly right about women and family size. His comment was that they decide family size and that mostly they are relentless on this point. 

We had 2 kids - spaced almost 5 years. She wanted "more" - which I believed to be at least 2 more but I could not tell for sure. She was and intended to continue being a stay at home mom. I was making enough money for the 2 kids we had and one more without a big stretch. 


When our second child (at that time we had a girl and a boy) was just over a year I initiated this conversation on a peaceful Saturday afternoon while standing in our kitchen. I spoke softly and calmly and also firmly. 

>>>>>>>>
I have thought about family size for 6 months now. I want to stop at 2, you want more. You have 3 options, please don't pick option 3. Either 1 or 2 are fine. 

1. You agree to 3 - this is not a pretend to agree - this is a hardcore commit that when our next baby is 6 months (beyond the SIDS high risk period) - I go get a vasectomy without further conversation/discussion or disagreement. This is my preferred choice. I will never complain about the 3rd, never reference that I did this under duress. I will simply convince myself I want 3 just as much as you. I am certain I can get there. 

2. You decide that 3 is just not enough for you to be happy. I will make you a generous financial settlement, we will part amicably and stay great friends. You may then proceed to have as many children as you like with another man. 

3. You pretend to agree to 1, and then try to go for 2 - with me. If that happens we will divorce, it will be bitter, I will inflict as much misery on you as I am legally able. I will never - if I live to be a 100 - never forgive you for deceiving me. 

I have had 6 months to consider this. You are welcome to evaluate your options as long as you like. If you believe there are other valid choices I am glad to listen to your thoughts. 

About 5 minutes later she selected option 1, and we followed the plan to the letter without further discussion. Number 3 is a delightful child. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If I had to do it over again I would have added some stuff to this. Specifically that I wanted a promise that I would not be dropped to the bottom of the priority stack after child 3 was born. And that our sex life would not change after number 3. I was really lucky, neither changed. But many, many men find that as soon as wife gets the final child, her motivation to play nice with husband drops very noticeably. I am not bashing women - just describing a very common outcome. 

I would have put it this way: Our marriage will not survive me being treated as the 5th wheel. Your life will be much worse with more kids and no husband, then less kids and no husband. For your sake don't do this unless you really are as committed to me as a man and a husband as you are to making little copies of us. 

Like I said I was lucky. I did not have those issues, but many men do. If you already have sexual issues expect them to get worse. 





>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChimeIn 
Speaking as a woman, and a mom, I think every child's first right is to be wanted and loved by BOTH their parents. I can't stand it when I see women who have an "oops" moment... forcing the issue to their hesitant husband. 

Speaking as a mom of an only child, try pointing out all the positives... my son is now five and he's in kindergarten (Free!) for 7 hours a day. I got my life/career back already... not 8 or 11 years later... just five. I think its a fabulous way to have a family.

Speaking as an adult who's worked on knowing who I am and what I want, I realize that I would have been happy adopting a child (DH wouldn't hear of it), and there ARE moments when I realize my son is missing out on sibling moments. I only shrug and say, he's getting benefits that other kids don't have. DH and I have more time, energy, patience, money, EVERYTHING for him... because he doesn't have to share.

I would highly recommend hiring a babysitter, sitting down and talking with your wife and very honestly, in a heart-felt way (so she doesn't think you'll change your mind when you see your beautiful newborn baby.... a LOT of women think this way!), telling her that you believe a baby, toddler, child, teenager, adult needs a father who loves them and wanted them. And you're not able to provide that.

THEN... offer her options. Does she want to be a "Big Sister?" Does she want to be the host family for exchange students? (Something I want to do for my son when he gets older.) Does she want to volunteer with children at the local hospital? Would it be enough for her to be around any nieces & nephews that you have? Then tell her you want her to take at least ONE WHOLE DAY and think long and hard about each of these options. Spend the entire 24 hours just contemplating one option... the short-term and the long term. Tell her you'll do the same. Tell her one of the options would be to have a second child. (You at least owe her your full consideration of having a second.)

Then let it stew for a week and see where you are. If she's like some women, just the sight of a baby will send her into spasms of desire for another... if she's not, she can compromise with you on one of the other options.

If, after your 24 hour period, you're really sure of your course, then you need to tell her you want a vasectomy. It may cost the marriage. So you need to decide how much an only-child is worth to you. 

Good luck. 







cruiser said:


> Problem is moneys getting tight and her going back to work would help a lot. Another baby would be a huge burden now, my stress level is already at a ten. lol.


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## TotoWeRNotInKansasAnymore (Apr 7, 2011)

You need to express that when you’re working 2 jobs, along with being quite stressed about your financial situation, you cannot focus on putting your best foot forward as the kind of parent you’d like to be. Not to mention how the anxiety of whether or not she is pregnant each month takes it's toll on you.

Maybe she might understand that.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

cruiser said:


> LOL 2 condoms. Not wearing any now. They suck, would almost rather not make love to her than wear them. I want to make love to my wife with no barriers or chemicals. Is that so bad?


No it's not but you need to understand what you are up against. Were you using w/d when she got pregnant with #3?


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## cruiser (Jul 8, 2011)

I have told her of the stress it puts on me each month and the pressure it puts on me. She does not very often validate my feelings so I don't know how these comments affect her.


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## cruiser (Jul 8, 2011)

When we got preg with #3 we were using NFP. Did not work.


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## MGirl (Mar 13, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Have you looked in to a non-hormonal IUD for her? ParaGard IUD Contraceptive - Birth Control Options using Intrauterine Conception - ParaGard.
> 
> It is not permanent, but they are very effective and can be left in for quite some time. There are some ladies on the board here who have them and seem to have had good luck with them.


:iagree: Look into this.

Here's a post I started several months back about it...there are a lot of ladies' opinions here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/23200-copper-iud-questions.html

Keep in mind, some women refer to the Mirena IUD as well. The Mirena uses hormones. The Paragard IUD is completely non-hormonal.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I was 30 when our first was born. A little over a year later and W decided she wanted a tubal. Even though I wasn't ready, we didn't even really have a conversation about me getting the V. We each grew up with one sibling, and had talked lots of having two, but neither of us was really set on that number, plus we also both thought the idea of adopting if we ever wanted to grow our family was a good idea. Obviously the decision to have another had to be mutual, and the decision to stop only took one, so she made that decision for the both of us without a whole lot of dialog. I was certainly not controlling about it, but a little dumbfounded as to why it needed to be so final, I don't think I have any resentment about not having another child with her, though maybe some resentment about how she just took that decision away from me with little regard for my opinion. Anyways, atleast now that I'm heading to divorce I've left that option open for myself and any future spouse, though I am not really up to the idea of raising a toddler in my 40's.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Lon said:


> I am not really up to the idea of raising a toddler in my 40's.


It's not easy. I had my 3rd at age 39. Only upside is it forces me to stay in good shape so I can keep up with her.


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

Cruiser . . . you said you wanted 2, she wanted 3, then opps! the 3rd came along. You're done.

I got my V years ago (we both agreed). She was super paranoid about getting preg again shich took a lot of the fun out of it. The V was the best thing for us to have done. Go for it. IF, in the unlikely event YOU decide you want more children, it's not the end of the world.

My only advice. . .the Dr, said I _might_ be able to go to work the next day. He was so full of ****! For a couple days pain/discomfort, it was all worth it. And, maybe, 10 years later the procedure is more comfortable.


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## e.p. (Jun 10, 2011)

cruiser said:


> Anyone else have trouble convincing their wife on a vasectomy?


It's your body. Take control of the situation, and be a leader. Man up and snippedy-snip.

-e.p.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

e.p. said:


> It's your body. Take control of the situation, and be a leader. Man up and snippedy-snip.
> 
> -e.p.


This was my first thought too but if he enjoys sex he really should consider other options (barring non hormonal bc like an IUD, or continued use of w/d - I like MEM's plan the best so far). The risk is high that she would cut him off for doing this without her blessing. Right now she's hoping sex leads to another baby. Take that away and what's the point.

This assumes that she's not a HD spouse. If she is she'd get over it...eventually but do you really want to chance it?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Your low drive wife is probably having alot of unprotected sex with you because she wants another baby. If you snip yourself, you run the risk that she will no longer desire sex. I recommend you look into Natural Family Planning.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Hicks said:


> I recommend you look into Natural Family Planning.


He tried that and now has 3.


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## cruiser (Jul 8, 2011)

I would never have this done without my wife's consent. I couldn't imagine how disrespectful that would be to her.


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## bell (Jul 10, 2011)

thanks for sharing Im going to try VCF. Right now we try and follow the natural planning, watching out during "days of ovulation." its really hard and we try condoms. I used to have merena, but it def has too much hormones. and I hate the pill. Tt my H about V too.


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## bell (Jul 10, 2011)

Cruiser, be careful, if anything count the days of her cycle and watch out! of course talk to her about it first, but if you aren't going to protect yourselves then try and watch those days of ovulation cause pulling out DOES NOT WORK! Sperm travel through the pre ejaculation and "wettness" and can live in the vaginal area for up to 4-5 days too!


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

Bell, you are welcome.

The IUD is a VERY sore subject with me. I have quite a few kids, my ex is the dad. I love every single one of them. But it was time to stop. I went and got the 10 year iud.

A few years later, I divorce, hook up with my new hubby, get married. Since I had so many kids already, we agreed we would just raise mine. He had no kids (of his own) and when we married he took on the love and and care and responsibility of mine. He has been a great dad to them. My youngest was 10 months old when he came into our life. 

But before you know it, even with the IUD, guess who is pregnant again? 

Me.

And that was okay. I always have room in my heart and home to welcome another child if an "oops" happens. My new hubby was thrilled. He was shocked. But he was so happy. He was over the moon. 

Unfortunately this iud did not prevent a pregnancy, and thats fine, we could live with a surprise "blessing". What we couldn't live with was the fact that this iud would not come out safely, and it was creating a hostile environment inside of my womb.

I cant remember what the doc said our babys chances of surviving the pregnancy were, but we said we would take the chance for him to live.

Unfortunately, I miscarried at 4.5 months. We were crushed. It has been 5 years and we are still heart broken. Our son will always be missed until the day we are reunited with him again in heaven.

R.I.P.


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## cruiser (Jul 8, 2011)

Well we had a long and rather emotional discussion on this topic last night. It is a tough thing for us to discuss because I feel she doesn't try to see things from my POV and she feels as though her feelings don't matter and that my mind is made up so why talk about it. I am trying to put myself in her shoes but it's hard when I can't get a definite answer from her. I just know that this a HUGE decision and I would like for US to decide and not have it made for us. Anyway we both went to bed mad and as usual I feel terrible about these disagreements as they usually ruin me the following day.


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## e.p. (Jun 10, 2011)

magnoliagal said:


> This was my first thought too but if he enjoys sex he really should consider other options (barring non hormonal bc like an IUD, or continued use of w/d - I like MEM's plan the best so far). The risk is high that she would cut him off for doing this without her blessing. Right now she's hoping sex leads to another baby. Take that away and what's the point.
> 
> This assumes that she's not a HD spouse. If she is she'd get over it...eventually but do you really want to chance it?


It really depends on the dynamic of the relationship. She might really want another kid, or she might really want her man to step it up and make a decision on her behalf. I don't think any of us short of her husband know enough at this point to determine which is the case. 

[ There is a horrible double standard when it comes to vasectomies, though. My wifes' gyno was asking her if she wanted tubes tied after our second was born and I wasn't in the picture for any of it. My wife could have gone with it and I'd never know. When I went to get my vasectomy, I had to get my wife's permission... wtf? I also had a testicular cyst that needed operating on (and would permanently sterilize me due to removal of the vas deferens) and again, I was asked to wait 30 days and get my wife's permission to proceed. ]

-e.p.


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## Walt (Jul 17, 2011)

e.p. said:


> [ There is a horrible double standard when it comes to vasectomies, though. My wifes' gyno was asking her if she wanted tubes tied after our second was born and I wasn't in the picture for any of it. My wife could have gone with it and I'd never know. When I went to get my vasectomy, I had to get my wife's permission... wtf?
> -e.p.


So true. My doctor *required* that my W attend the initial consultation before he would perform the vasectomy!

I don't recall whether she had to sign anything or not.


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## WorldsApart (May 5, 2011)

My wife and I went back and forth over a year on the big snip. In the end, she wasn't happy with it (she acknowledged that she knew I was right rationally, but emotionally she was hung up), but as time has gone on, we are both VERY happy not to worry about having any more.


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## cam44 (Feb 10, 2012)

sorry to resurect this thread.
Just wondering -- after the vasectomy, do you still ejaculate stuff out when you cum?


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

My hubby had his V just 2 months ago. It went so well, he was back to his normal self the second day and we had sex on the third. We use non latex condoms, I'm allergic to latex. 

I think your playing with fire using the pull out method and not very smart at all. I can't wait until we can chuck the condoms, but it's not worth the risk. We are done having children and I'm actually worried about the condoms breaking due to the frequency of sex, but I'm sure we are in the clear now, hubby needs to bring in a sample.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I wanted 2, she wanted 4. After the second I firmly explained that given a winning powerball ticket I would love to have 4. Absent that, 3 was the most I would agree to. 

I told her I would never complain about having a third (and have not) but if 3 wasn't enough we should part ways at 2, and she could have as many more with her replacement H as she wanted. 

Everybody has their limits. That was mine. Love my W - and also knew that the time/money of a fourth would likely create enough stress to impact our marriage. 

I ALSO told her, that when the 3 got old enough, she could foster other children if we were in a position to do that. I have repeated that offer since then. 




cruiser said:


> Well my W and I have hit a road bump here. We have 3 kids 11 and under and I am almost 40 and work 2 jobs. We currently use no BC other than pull out. We hate condoms and are against any BC with hormones due to her low drive already. So I brought up me having a V. Well I went for the consult and came home and she waffled on it.
> 
> I am def done at 3 kids and now she says that it's too final and maybe we should have one more. Now this is new to me I had told her I was good with 2, then #3 came by accident and she is a blessing. But when can we take control of our lives?
> 
> ...


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

If it was her that wanted her tubes tied, she wouldn't allow any argument.... it's her body, right? 

I think the only way to solve it is to tell her... "I do not want more children. I am getting a vasectomy.... You need to decide if that is a deal breaker for you."


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

SunnyT said:


> If it was her that wanted her tubes tied, she wouldn't allow any argument.... it's her body, right?
> 
> I think the only way to solve it is to tell her... "I do not want more children. I am getting a vasectomy.... You need to decide if that is a deal breaker for you."


It's not always so easy as "It's my body ... " especially when you're talking about giving up something as precious to someone as their fertility. The feelings sneaked up on me and didn't hit me until after the procedure was done. I had a very supportive wife who understood quickly (after an initial shock) when I explained how I felt afterwards, and quickly began giving me the reassurance I needed to get past the grief of losing my fertility permanently. 

I think in this case, she is beginning to feel the grief even before the procedure, and is beginning to have second thoughts. I can actually understand that even though it didn't hit me until afterwards, and I think it will have to be dealt with with a lot of love. The fertility belongs jointly to the couple. It's not always as easy as some may think.

*EDIT: *It was absolutely a good decision for us to have the vasectomy. It was much easier on me than having her tubes tied would have been on her, and she didn't have to take any hormone altering pills ever again. However; the grief is real. I'm sure not everyone has it, but many do. Just be ready for a short period of grief with it when you consider it, and be ready for it to affect your partner whichever side of it you're on.


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## cam44 (Feb 10, 2012)

so if you have a vasectomy, do you still ejaculate semen out or does that stop? I understand the lines are cut so no sperm can come out so do you ejaculate anything?


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

cam44 said:


> so if you have a vasectomy, do you still ejaculate semen out or does that stop? I understand the lines are cut so no sperm can come out so do you ejaculate anything?


After the vasectomy, yes, I still ejaculate. As a matter of fact, you can't notice any difference in volume nor in texture. 

Much later, I had to start taking a med for an enlarged prostate, and that med can cause absent ejaculation with orgasm from about 1 hour after I take it until about 18 hours after I take it. But that is different.

As a matter of fact, after the vasectomy, you will need to give a semen sample so that they can do a sperm count and be sure they have sterilized you. You really can't tell until they take it to the lab and analyze for that. (Don't skip this follow up. Sometimes, a man has more than one vas on a side and if one is missed, you may not be sterile. You don't want that surprise, so make the follow up appt for the sperm count).


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## cam44 (Feb 10, 2012)

ok good. I wouldn't want that to stop happening. It may seem strange, but for all these years of having that, and then if it stopped it would be very weird ... I guess there would less of a psychological impact imo if everything still appears to function the same ...


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