# Should people be shamed for their choice of marriage partners?



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Almost 32 years ago when I was a kid during the 70's era, one of my uncles migrated to the USA. Eventually he enlisted in the US Army during the Vietnam war , and had a successful career, up until his retirement.
During that period, he met and married a white, all American woman, they had a beautiful baby girl.
She grew up, went to college , excelled, attended university got her degree ,furthered her studies and became very highly qualified in her field. She travelled and worked all over the world. 
She has even taught in South Korea and Japanese schools.
Very culturally adept, an unrepentant feminist and describes herself as a " liberal Democrat." [ Whatever that means , I'm not sure.]She's a political activist of sorts, but her dad is an unrepentant Republican.

She eventually married a white American man , but the marriage didn't last. By year three, they were divorced, she admitted to me that a huge part was her fault. She was young and her passion for her research work etc. took a toll on their relationship. The divorce was amicable, no kids involved.
She's now a lecturer at a University and recently got remarried to an Italian guy.

Should be be shamed for her choice of an Italian man for husband?
Should her dad be shamed for his choice of an American woman for wife?
Should his wife be shamed for marrying a Caribbean man , and not an American?

When I decided to marry a woman outside of my race and culture, I was given lots of grief and shaming by women of my own race, except my family. Tremendous social pressure was placed on me because of my choice of an Indian woman.
Negative stereotyping of her . They told me that something was wrong with me because I didn't want to marry " a_ real _woman who could stand up to me."
Lots of BS, but it didn't faze me, I knew what I wanted.
Well I DUMPED ALL OF MY SO CALLED FRIENDS and married my wife.
Today , after 18 years, I look around and all I can see is her.
Some of those who gave me grief back then are now asking me 
" how come ?"
Their marriages ended on the rocks, long ago.
Interestingly enough, intercultural / interracial marriages is now the norm here . Everybody doing as they please.
So much for the bad old days.

32 years later, my black, Republican uncle and his white Democrat wife are still happily married . My half white ,half crazy feminist , favourite cousin is enjoying her second marriage having learnt hard lessons from her first, and my wife and I are still very much in love.

I won't bother to mention my sister in law who got married to an Australian scientist who was down here " on assignment " and caught the " jungle fever " 15 years ago.A few months later , they got married. Today, 15 years after ,they still are a happily married couple , residing in Australia.

My point is that people marry who they are attracted to.
They marry for various reasons, sexual attraction , social mobility, financial security, opportunity, whatever, we all have our personal biases, and that is our personal right. 
It is theirs too.

Some women prefer genuine nice, quiet guys who they think wouldn't give off too much "alpha" attitude because it is a turn off,_to them._

Some men prefer genuine nice , quiet women who they think wouldn't give off too much "alpha" attitude because its a turn off, _to them._

Others like just the opposite and it works fine , because its a turn on, _to them._

Some people strike gold in their first marriage, some on their second attempt, and still some, only after long periods, yes even after 24 years.
People marry whom they want to marry for personal reasons, and that's their right .
The year is 2013, should we really be shaming them?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I live in America. You could get married to a plastic wading pool up here and you wouldn't raise any eyebrows.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Interesting thought. I think everybody are entitled to their own happiness, with the person they love. But that's not how this world goes. In my country, there are still social boundaries (such as race, religion, clan and social strata) which poses as a real obstacle for exogamy.


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## aesky (Jun 20, 2013)

Ignore the social boundaries. And if people give you a hard time or threaten you, move. Maybe that's easier to say than to do, but why let others put those kinds of constraints on you.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

People shouldn't be shamed over who they marry. People should feel free to choose a partner who will suit them best.
With that said, those who choose to go elsewhere for a bride/groom probably shouldn't go around saying they did it bc the people in their country suck or are sub par. 
Throw rudeness into the world and that's what you'll receive back.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

No, no one should be ashamed of being open-minded, loving, color-blind and culturally accepting. However, two people being all of those things and loving each other does not, unfortunately, negate ignorance or centuries of tradition, folklore and ethnic pride.

Interesting this came up as I'm contemplating seeing my middle eastern ex. When we were dating, my daughter had met him (one of the few) and knew where he came from. Apparently she mentioned this to her Dad. She told me that men from there hit women and treat them like slaves and instilled a fear in her that we could be 'snatched' and removed from this country by him. I also had several friends who asked "aren't you afraid?" and asked if I'd watched the movie "Midnight Express" which is apparently about some sort of abduction focused on Iranian culture (I don't know; I never saw it). 

No, I'm not afraid. He was not raised in that time - when women were oppressed. He went to college in Europe and spent 20+ years in the US. 

Funny - the one thing that all cultures have in common and forget to admire is how highly they value family. Asian cultures, Latin American cultures and yes, middle eastern cultures have a strong emphasis on family. I had taken the time to learn, ask questions and read about Persian culture. What I learned, aside from extremists is that children are revered; chadors are for the women's protection because women aren't to be sexualized - instead women are protected in this manner because they are highly prized matriarchs. The chador was originally NOT about keeping them ashamed or oppressed as many believe although under the new regime it has turned out that way. I belonged to a Persian/American on-line group of women and learned it from them first hand - this is not what was 'fed' to me by him.

There are some sterotypes and those are often based to a degree in truth. But I really try to not fall prey to that type of thinking. I admit I have and I'm not perfect but when it comes to marriage, who am I to judge?


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

This is me completely talking out of my a$$ but when I look at an interracial couple I assume they are MORE in love or have a STRONGER relationship than most.

To go outside the norm or the comfort zone, you have to be secure in your decision. That requires some confidence in yourself, in your partner AND the situation. Now it doesn't always work out (addressing the people who look specifically for another race instead of the individual person) but as a whole, when you fall in love with someone outside "the norm", it's going to be real.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't think it is shame but fear. I guess this is about the recent threads on merits of inter cultural marriages. 

Edit - My husband and I are different races. We grew up in the same heavily immigrant neighborhood, we were friends, he and his mom and dad helped me through some difficult times, we helped each other academically and I helped him decode the girls he was dating.

But when we started dating, I was told that he was not suitable. Why? Well because I should stick with my own race if I wanted to get married and have kids. Also, my extended family would not approve. 
They were afraid that he would not love me enough to commit if that was what I wanted. 

I think most of the concerns and objections about interracial, intercultural, inter-religious marriages are fear based. 

Loving relationships start out with a big leap of faith. It is easier to understand the unspoken contracts you make in a relationship with a person from a similar culture and background. 

I've seen marriages blow up between two people who seem made for each other. 

You can't sit on your laurels and look out at the rest of the marital carnage until one of you is a widow. You can't tell which marriage is a success and which is a failure from the outside. D is obviously a fail, but is 20 yrs of misery a success? 

I think it is a crap shoot. When the marriage is good, you think it is because of how wonderful you are at relationships. If it remains good till one of you is dead then it is a success. 

Sh!t happens, financial problems, a persistent offers from an attractive associate, depression, chronic illness. How the relationship will weather these inevitable storms is an unknown. 

It depends on the reserves of the people involved. You don't know what you are made out of until it happens. 

There is no magic formula. Take woman from column B and insert her here and you are good to go. There is no way to have a happy marriage without work and sacrifice. 

The people looking for sure fire formulas for success that require their partner to serve their needs will fail. You cant get what you are not willing to give. Not for very long anyway. 

They may not be as vocal about their fail as they are about the woman or man they selected from column B. They won't tell you when the partner withdraws from them physically or verbally abuses them or puts them under heavy financial strain or cheats on them.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I never look at Race (can anything be more prejudice).... but I always look at *character* / how someone lives & treats their fellow man...

If any thoughts of ..."what the hell was he or she thinking?" come's in....it is related to someone's actions or past choices in actions that waved many 's while a partner brushed them off blindly - dissing everyone around them that He or she is different.

Shy Guy did a post on the "American Husbands" thread ... that speaks it all ....



shy_guy said:


> *Pretty much the world over, people are people. That's what I want to get across. There are good ones and there are bad ones, and there are a lot of people in between. Women complain about the same things about men, and men complain about the same things about women, and always, somehow, people everywhere are convinced that there are people in another country that are just different, and they interpret "different" as meaning they don't have all those negative qualities that they have to deal with in the people around them. It isn't true, though.*
> 
> Native American boys dream about growing up and being astronauts just like the kids within sight of Cape Canaveral do, and when you go half way around the world, you find kids there with the same dreams. People all over the world love their kids. *Cultures are different, but people are people. If you run away from one group and find another group in a far off land, soon enough, you find they're also people just like the ones you left.
> *
> That's what I try to get across. *We're all human, and we're all individuals.*




It kinda amazes me HOW much I *think* like YOU Caribbean Man and I am just a sheltered country hick who couldn't even imagine the robust lifestyle you have lived with all your vast experiences & travels ...yet almost all your posts resonate with me... and we're on different continents! (Well I think we're both in North America ?)


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Who you marry is your business. You're the one who has to live with them.


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

CM, I wish I could "Like" this 10 times. (I'll get it once when I get back to my desktop!)

It doesn't even have to be cultural. You would not believe how much hell I caught from (some) family and friends when, at 25, I married a 36 yearold woman. All of them were very against it. 15 years later and our marriage is probably stronger than it has ever been.

I think it speaks to insecurity in the shamer; when you invest so much of your self-worth in your identity group(s), you take any fracturing of that group - such as marrying outside the group - as an attack on your person. We see that along gender lines on this very board. People who have strong sense of self are less vulnerable to such shaming.

If you marry across cultures, there are challenges but those are between you and your spouse. You can't let other people inflict their insecurities on your marriage. It can't ever help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Thanks for the responses so far.
I agree with everyone's points.

I think what I'm trying to say is this.
If my cousin , who looks like she's a black woman with light skin wasn't my cousin but just my friend, I would probably date her, be sexually attracted to her, BUT I WOULD NOT HAVE MARRIED HER.

Why?

Because she has a very aggressive personality, arrogant just like me. She is witty and a social butterfly , she's the life of the party.
We always argue and cuss each other [ in a respectful way,lol! ] on facebook , and we love to debate history, politics and literature.
She still loves to party.
Whenever she's down here, she always wants us, [ my wife and I ] to go clubbing with her and to hang out at sport bars. We choose the latter.
I love having those type of women as friends,even when I was single,
But I personally cannot live with her level of excitement.

I fully understood why her first husband asked for a divorce

See my point?

We all have our little nuances that are totally illogical. Whatever they may be ,it is part of us. It is what makes me , _me._
And if that nuance tells me that I might be better off marrying a Thai woman, there's no law against that.
If that nuance tells an American man that American women are the best in the world, there's no law against that.
If that nuance tells an American woman that she's better off marrying a Norwegian or Scandanavian man, there's no law against that.

In the end, we all just want to be happy.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Convection said:


> It doesn't even have to be cultural. *You would not believe how much hell I caught from (some) family and friends when, at 25, I married a 36 yearold woman. *All of them were very against it. 15 years later and our marriage is probably stronger than it has ever been.


 Since women generally live longer than men, probably not such a bad thing....

I must be honest, when I see a young woman with an older man.... I don't get it, seems crazy to me...I figure he is loaded and she is using him...but I've never never never been attracted to older man, I like youth too much, I wish my husband was younger than me .... Though I'd be too insecure to marry a younger man (especially if he was really good looking)... I'd worry he'd eventually want someone his age... it would bug the hell out of me. 

I would worry more about the *sexual mismatch* over anything else in these situations... (when you married Convection -those ages were PERFECT hormonally ....as women's Prime is 35+ & men are raring to go like Mad in their 20's. 

But the older man/ younger woman scenario....she'd be going stark raving MAD in her prime years - with someone 15+ older than her -his Test levels would be dragging on the ground and she'd be dreaming of someone younger... Would NEVER work for me - so this is why I feel as I do... but to each their own.. 

Though I would warn of these things...if I had a friend contemplating marrying a man that much older.. ..if she is dead to sex, I guess it wouldn't matter. But still... that could change as she gets older.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

who cares what other think!

now with that said often times the loved one around you can see the flaws that you missed and their opinion about whom ever you choise as a mate should be considered espically if you trust them and their opinion.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

CM,

I don't think its anybodies business who you marry. You can find love on the other side of earth for all we know. Marry whomever says yes!  

PS: I'm not trying to tell you what avatar to have but you might want to research Che Guevara and see if you want people to associate it with your username. The man was a mass murdering disgusting tyrant. I don't mean to come off as pedantic, but it saddens me to see him used in any context. He belongs right next to Hitler in the history books. 

Hey Urban Outfitters: Che Guevara Was a Murderer and Your Poster Is Not Cool - Hit & Run : Reason.com


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Inthe end, we all just want to be happy.


And you found a woman who did that for you. It didn't matter whether she was from the West Indies, India, or Indiana. Your true friends will be happy for you that she makes you happy.

My wife likes to say to me, "Convection, I know you're not perfect. But you're perfect for me." Like you and Mrs. CM, we are happy together, because we are just what the other person needs. It's a beautiful thing, and rare, and should not be shamed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Sanity said:


> CM,
> 
> I don't think its anybodies business who you marry. You can find love on the other side of earth for all we know. Marry whomever says yes!
> 
> ...


.......and Fidel Castro is a billionaire, Fulgencio Batista was a true Cuban patriot and Agusto Pinnochet was a liberal democrat.

Yep, I've seen it all online before.
Unfortunately, I know the history.

However maybe you could start a thread on it in the politics section?

On your first point though ,
I fully agree.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> .......and Fidel Castro is a billionaire, Fulgencio Batista was a true Cuban patriot and Agusto Pinnochet was a liberal democrat.
> 
> Yep, I've seen it all online before.
> Unfortunately, I know the history.
> ...


Or he could attend our diversity training on the social form


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

mablenc said:


> Or he could attend our diversity training on the social form


A good place to start!


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

Well if the person regrets the series of events or lifestyle it led to sure they could justify being ashamed. Furthermore if a compelling argument is laid out as to why person's marriage partner is "the wrong choice" and it succeeds in convincing the person they could feel ashamed. 

With that said choices and thoughts are the results of millions of variables.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> There is no magic formula. Take woman from column B and insert her here and you are good to go. There is no way to have a happy marriage without work and sacrifice.
> 
> The people looking for sure fire formulas for success that require their partner to serve their needs will fail. You cant get what you are not willing to give. Not for very long anyway.


Catherine thanks for your insightful input into this thread.
I wanted to respond earlier, but time got in the way.

However,I wanted to ask this question about the part of your post in quotation above.

Do you think many people who marry cross culture do it because of the reason you mention above?

Do you think they for a positive stereotype in their mind and conclude that it's a sure fire way to marital success?

I'm just asking your opinion.

With me, I never looked at it like that. I just saw qualities in her that looked like what I expected a wife to be like.

What happened in your case? 
What did you think at that time?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Thank you CM. I think you made a great thread given some of the recent post. 

In my situation, I happen to meet a man (we were school age when we met) who I got to know, and love. We just happen to be thrown together by fate. I was not looking for an interacial marriage. He does have a preference for women with dark hair and eyes and tan colored skin. That fits me. 

Although we are not the same race and our families came from places thousands of miles apart, somehow our values, goals and interest and approach to the life are remarkably similar. It seemed so natural that I did not think at all. We just did what we did. 

We never really discussed race as it pertained to us. We talk about it like we are both observing an interesting tennis match. It touches is but it does not rule our lives. happens. We put our energy into mentoring young people , supporting education and walking what we preach 

My experience with interacial/cultural marriages is probably unique in that I teach in a profession with a racially and culturally diverse adults in their low to middle 20's. They frequently pair up with classmates, regardless of race and culture. 

Given my experience, my impression is that proximity, shared values, sexual attraction, shared vision and some level of social acceptence makes for love, no matter who the persons are. People also find certain types more attractive than others and they seek a close match. 

What's the difference between stereotyping, acting on bias, and prejudice? They are all on a continuum from mild to severe delusions. All are harmful. There is inevitably disappointment, anger, bitterness or blindness when reality does not match delusions. 

They all restrict enjoyment of the rich tapestry of human existence. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There is a big difference between interracial marriage and inter cultural marriage. 

My older daughter dated a biracial guy for 3 years and culture wise they were compatible (wealthy suburban ) Race was not an issue. 

Inter cultural marriages, especially between distant cultures, are another story. Not relationships, as the fog of courtship and the constant discovery of little things about each other obscures the big differences.

Should anyone be shamed? No, but a warning or two should be taken into consideration.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

i agree John. 

What I've seen is that the couples who put the most effort into getting to know the culture of their partner, learning the language, and getting to know family and friends, are the most successful. . 

One of my colleagues, who is American. is married to his former grad student from another country. They knew each other well and seem to get along fine. However, there was one area of conflict.. 

She sends a considerable amount of money home on a regular basis. Her parents and relatives have new homes and their kids are being well schooled. 

His family made him feel insecure about her sincerity and love and told him he was being fleeced. 

In reality, no matter who she married, she and her husband would be expected to help out at home. It's deeply ingrained in her culture. 

In essence, he married her and her family. Not knowing her culture caused conflict which dissipated once he understood. It would have been terrible had they D over this. They worked together, got to know each other well. The relationship grew out of a shared vision, a great foundation.

But if the relationship floundered over this, there'd be yet another story of the horrors of intercultural relationships. In truth, it would not have been a bad wind but lack of understanding that swamped the ship.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well, learning the language is not practical (useless languages both, not spoken much, if at all, outside our countries of birth - both our girls are near bilingual - not in our languages tho). I can understand quite a bit of her language. The culture I have mostly figured out. Dinner at our place is always a surprise, the home is museum spec decorated with art from all over, etc.

The biggest difference is that of class. I was lower middle class European, she is ruling class elite Asian. I'm not materialistic at all, she's the second coming of Imelda Marcos . She constantly tells me I have no ambitions. Not true, as per my culture I tend to work 35 hours a week. I earned my Phantasy D degree just like she did and I work half the hours she does for the same money, how bad can this be?

Then there's dating, teenage years, school expectations, etc. Unfortunately my girls attract a LOT of suitors (looking like Kim Kardashian will do that) and mom is terminally afraid they will hook up with a "loser"... They have to become doctors (see Rapture), the works. 

Overall it's a pain at times but when I see what my kids have made out of three cultures I think it's all worth it.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> What I've seen is that the couples who put the most effort into getting to know the culture of their partner, learning the language, and getting to know family and friends, are the most successful. .


From personal experience I can say that learning about your partner's culture is a type of bonding experience.

Firstly they both have to open their minds to accept something that might be totally alien to him.
It can be a wonderful learning experience.
Then a compromise can be reached , if there are conflicting ideas/ customs. 

In that way they can both learn to work together and depend on each other for vital support in grey areas.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If the cultures are reasonably close, it's not that difficult. It gets a lot more difficult if cultures are very different and personalities clash...

I learned a lot about Farawaystan and its history, culture, and the like and this really helped me understand my wife's thought process. Unfortunately she did not reciprocate by offering to learn much about the little European country I hail from, and did not even learn about or accept local (American) culture all that much. Judging everyone by a decades old Farawaystan cultural stick has been a disaster. The only thing that has worked in her favor is the perception that people of her caliber and level/field of education are usually "eccentric" 

By contrast, I had no problem adapting to American culture or Farawaystan culture. Home is where you hang your hat and all that... Adapting does not mean always accepting, sometimes it may even mean tolerating, or ignoring, 

Compromise is a personality depended approach. Some cultures are better than others at it...


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I have three grown sons. Not once ever did I insinuate that culture or skin color or gender of their partners would change how I feel or think about them. Cultural differences does add additional obstacles and so does mixed race marriage. Really though there's good and bad in every single culture and ethnicity and I just want all three of my kids to be with someone who loves them and treats them right. For that matter I want all of my kids to treat others right too.


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