# Rebuilding trust after hurt



## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

Hi folks,

I'm wanting to hear from anyone, especially those that have been in the same or similar situation before, as to whether it's _really_ possible to move on after the hurt of emotional neglect and rebuild trust and love.

I am not talking about affairs here. I'm not delving into the specifics of my situation but basically my spouse has previously buried hurtful words and disrespect by excusing/ignoring it, but after a while she connected with her feelings and realised a disconnection of emotion in the relationship - a product of shutting down emotionally so as to avoid the hurt. 

Now the feelings are out, I've apologised, demonstrated change and willingness to work at relationship. She's forgiven me and says that the pain is subsiding after a week but she is struggling trying to feel any connection/love with me. She's not after limerence, she wants a feeling of supreme intimacy and security - it would seem closely linked with the issue of trust. That is, trust I will be there for her and care for her no matter what.

It's not quite WAW syndrome because she wants to give it a go and see if the feelings come back, but ultimately, this is painful for us both and neither of us know what to do exactly or how long it will take, or whether trust can be fully restored as well as deep feelings of love.

Would like to hear from anyone that's been through the same. Possible? Time? Counselling? What's the right attitude?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Read "Not Just Friends". Towards the back of the book the author deals with recovery and forgiveness. She describes in detail the process necessary.


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## TopsyTurvy5 (Nov 16, 2013)

My wife and I are going through a very similar situation, except I am the one who was hurt. We are in counseling and have been for several months, and while things are slowly improving, it is a very laborious process. Our counselor said it typically takes close to two years to truly forgive and move forward. I believe it.

It's not enough to be sorry and know you did wrong, it's consistently demonstrating different (better) behavior over an extended period of time.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

One of the best resources I've read for this is the book "His Needs, Her Needs". "Love Busters" is a companion book... since there were negative things said and done to cause the problems, this book would help too.

Both you and your wife would need to read it and then work through what the book says to do.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

Thank for the help and suggestions folks!

I have been reading His Needs, Her Needs together with a few other books that the kind people of TAM have recommended.

Yesterday I was told all was forgiven and today I was reminded again, with a little bit of welcome affection. However, the lack of connection/loving feeling to me remains and it still makes her question our relationship. Forgiveness is one thing, overcoming the hurt and trusting in the future of a relationship is another though.

Stepping back I'm seeing more to it though, hence the new thread I started.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I have said a lot of hurtful things to dh. He really does forgive, though. I do not feel any resentment from him.

I think it is different when it comes from the man, though. Men's words seem to have more power, because usually there are fewer of them, and so they have more weight.

Just commit to earning her trust, daily, for the rest of your life. Apologize immediately and sincerely when you mess up.

And never blame her. Always insist that your words and actions are your responsibility, and yours alone.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

My personal opinion is that forgiveness is not something we can "do." It is the natural process that ultimately happens when there is no longer any hurt, fear, or resentment about a trigger or event.

In order for forgiveness to happen, change has to take place, and that change must be permanent. 

The problem is that by the time we get to that point where one person no longer feels love or they are wanting to leave, then even though a part of them says, "Yes, I'll work on this," another part of them is looking for ANY signs of proof that there is still reason to feel afraid or angry. It's very hard to get past this.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

My H has hurt me. I thought we could move on from it, but it's just not happening. I have a good reason though. He continues his ridiculous behavior. He says one thing and does another so the truth is an alien concept to our relationship. 

If you are sorry you have to prove it and it will take longer than a week. It has to be constant good behavior. Actions speak louder than words. 

Good luck!


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## trytrytry (Jun 11, 2014)

OP, I am in your exact situation except it is my boyfriend who has hurt me. I'm really finding it hard to find that love/connection with him again, although it has only been a week since we broke up/got together. I'm trying hard to channel my resentment into forgiveness and love but it gets quite difficult sometimes.

I hope your wife can still find that love/connection with you.


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

I have experienced both types of relationships where after being hurt/lied to...no actions or changes took place...only empty words/promises of change...it took me 10 years (and several repeat offenses)...to set my boundaries and this ended it complete absence of trust and the marriage ended as well.

In my current marriage...I have also experienced more than one betrayal of trust. However, in each of those instances, my husband as not only apologized but has done the work to make amends for his actions. 

Are there times when I feel less secure in my trust in him...yes. Often I can name it (perhaps a situation triggered me, or I am feeling insecure within myself). It is in these times, I speak the truth with how I am feeling. My husband listens to me and reassures me. It's not a matter of me shoving the offense back in his face time and time again. But speaking the truth with where I am at in my healing. He has/is so understanding.

This rebuilding of trust requires us BOTH to do our work. I choose to walk through this with him. With that choice I need to not just sit on the sidelines and make sure he is "being good", or worse, waiting for the next "slip". But actively working on loving him and showing him how I need him to love me.

When the blame in a situation is easily identified, I think most people tend to think and act in a way that puts all of the onus on the perpetrator. But if the desire is to reconnect...well, that takes two.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

Thanks for all the feedback. I'm seeing a lot of what has been said beginning to surface in my own situation.

Any minor set back or anything that could be interpreted in a negative way becomes a reason for the emotional barrier to come up and it then becomes even more trying to establish any form of reconnection. Thus, I do believe it's something that has to be worked on together.. it's not enough to demonstrate change - the offended party must be willing to work on healing the hurt and desire to build the trust in the relationship again.. This is where I might be out of luck. My partner has checked out of the marriage and would rather divorce me right now, but no decision has been agreed upon yet.

The hurt is definitely still there though. No amount of her telling herself it's alright actually means that the hurt has been healed - as evidenced in our initial MC session where anger and resentment started to bubble up just from talking about the past.

IF she decides to work on "us" I do believe it will take time and without the desire to actually want our marriage to work, I don't think there will be any worthwhile progress. Yet, it would seem that in order to get to that point of discernment requires the hurt to be dealt with and the emotional barriers to be lowered somewhat.

Very catch-22..


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How many hours a week to you two spend together doing date-like things that you both enjoy, just the two of you?

(There is a point to this question.)


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> How many hours a week to you two spend together doing date-like things that you both enjoy, just the two of you?


That we both enjoy... I think that's the crux of it. I try to encourage to do more together but at the moment she is very much preoccupied with her own interests; dieting, reading and listening to music - activities that are quite solitary and often times she requests space for this.

However, we have found the time to enjoy one another's company at the weekends recently by going for walks, dining out, gardening together.. The problem is that we can't do much in terms of dating because money is so tight but at every opportunity where I can splash out a bit, I'll take her on a "date" and I'll throw those in as spontaneous surprises, which do go down fairly well. On average, they'll amount to 3 - 6 hours per week though.

That said, every evening I will get back from work, discuss our days events and interests for an hour or two, prepare dinner and dine together and relax for an hour or so together. So we do give each other undivided attention for a couple of hours each day. Although, she spends most of her time having space to herself by her request if I'm to be honest.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Kvothe_The_Raven said:


> However, we have found the time to enjoy one another's company at the weekends recently by going for walks, dining out, gardening together.. The problem is that we can't do much in terms of dating because money is so tight but at every opportunity where I can splash out a bit, I'll take her on a "date" and I'll throw those in as spontaneous surprises, which do go down fairly well. On average, they'll amount to 3 - 6 hours per week though.


Your marriage won't last if this keeps up.

You will need to dedicate AT LEAST 3-6 hours A DAY!!!

Think about it, let's say you have 16 hours a day and take away 40 hours for work. That leaves you with 72 hours of time for life.

You are saying 10% of that time is dedicated to your marriage?

Now you know what needs to change, and we are taking a COMPLETE 360 here.

It should be more like 90% of that time, not 10%.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

The dilemma is her demand for space. It's something that has always been important to her and something I have always respected. When I did start to question her need for so much space I was met with a lot of anger, at least at the moment.. So I'm taking a different approach in which I simply plan and then invite her on dates, which tends to work and other times I just make the most of the time we do spend together, i.e. talking intimately as well as joking and playing around with each other. Although it's a sexless marriage at the moment, I do still show affection and we do overtly flirt with each other occasionally.

I'll need to somehow encourage her to do more together in the evenings after work. I'm just not sure how to do this without sounding like I'm not granting her any space. 

Any ideas on what I could do and how I could implement?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Schedule activities that are cheap and require lot of time together. Camping, hiking, Biking, walks etc

Sex issue is HUGE as well.

You should put a timeline on this and stick to it. If things don't get better I would probably recommend walking.

Ask yourself, is this something you are willing to live with for the rest of your life?

Personally, I wouldn't. Just the sex part alone would drive me away QUICK. Intimacy is a requirement in ANY relationship. Without it, it's just a matter of time before it ends or you/her find it elsewhere.

good luck


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

Sorry is just a word. True remorse must be shown for it to be believed. Words are just words. Action needs to follow the words for them to be believed. Consistency is important. With that being said. I'm a wife in this situation. We are separated by my choice. My husband can say many of the right things but doesn't understand that I listen to action. Broken promises, lies will not be tolerated again. I just can't give him my heart to hold again when I know he doesn't value it. His Needs, Her Needs is a great book. Try reading it together.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

The walking and biking is something that we do at the weekends together but she tends to fall silent on the walks and conversation has dried up when she treats the walks as a time for escape - then it becomes less about shared activity. 

Things are not good at the moment due to all the issues I described in my other thread regarding her mental health and it's those issues that have stopped the physical intimacy. 

Yes, the problem is certainly huge for me and it's not a situation I will accept for life but I see this relationship as either ending or recovering/rebuilding - it will not continue as it is forever.

Plan is for her to reboot her life whilst I give reasonable support and good companionship. Then it's agreed she needs to seek professional counselling for herself and then we get couples counselling to heal the past hurts etc. Then, and only then will I start to accept decisions on walking away or staying put and I've said I'd fight her on this. Funnily enough, it was when she said that she wanted out that I thought "I've got nothing to lose now" so I let rip and told her what I thought.. i.e. she couldn't make any decision at the moment and she should at least make a commitment to trying to save the marriage before making an ultimate decision. Life's too short for regrets.

And she agreed with me!


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

Hopefull363 said:


> Sorry is just a word. True remorse must be shown for it to be believed. Words are just words. Action needs to follow the words for them to be believed. Consistency is important. With that being said. I'm a wife in this situation. We are separated by my choice. My husband can say many of the right things but doesn't understand that I listen to action. Broken promises, lies will not be tolerated again. I just can't give him my heart to hold again when I know he doesn't value it. His Needs, Her Needs is a great book. Try reading it together.


I've read Harley's books for myself but not suggested reading them together yet. Not sure if now is quite the right time..

Otherwise I agree. I've apologised once for the hurtful remarks I've made and I described how I didn't like the aspects of myself that caused the hurt - identifying where they came from and why I am remorseful. Then I said no more and I have continued to work on myself because the changes I'm making are beneficial for me and they are not entirely for the sake of saving my marriage; they are positive changes in my mindset and my attitude. 

My consistency can only be shown over time but the change in attitude has been noticed and it has helped us talk on quite a deep level.

There are other issues that need to be dealt with first though if any progress is to be made, and much of that is up to her.


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

A good book for working on yourself is The Road Less Traveled.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

Hopefull363 said:


> A good book for working on yourself is The Road Less Traveled.


Ah, I remember reading that many years ago. Perhaps it's time for another read of it. Thanks for that


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

You may want to take it easy here... her hurt is buried very deep (talking from my own WAW situation... she was a conflict avoider as well) so this may take a long long time. Prapare yourself mentally, don't expect to see big improvements in the short run.

I don't remember who gave me this advice... but it seems like it's solid.

If she wants MC, very good. Sign she wants to work on things (except if she only goes to show you nothing will make a difference anymore). Mine didn't btw.

At home, build up the good stuff. In a consistent way. Make it the new you. This also will take time, so go slowly or u will backslide. Six hours of quality time per day doesn't seem realistic to me. You would def backslide. And your wife would feel suffocated all of the sudden.

As i said, build it up slowly, for your and her sake.

In the mean time, relax (i know i know). Act positive, picture a good outcome. What ever u do, don't pressure her.

Speak her love languages. But fgs, take it slow.

In the beginning, make sure you have at least one funny or interesting thing to tell her every night. Everybody can do that.

Also touch her once a day physically, a hug, a kiss in her neck, all good. If she's open for more, by all means. But don't expect it to happen on short term. Like i said, this is a rather long haul.

All of this plus the MC will cover the next months. Don't initiate big relationship discussions yourself.

And don't forget to take care of yourself in the mean while.

You may salvage this one. If you don't, you will have given it your best shot.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Kvothe_The_Raven said:


> Plan is for her to reboot her life whilst I give reasonable support and good companionship. Then it's agreed she needs to seek professional counselling for herself and then we get couples counselling to heal the past hurts etc. Then, and only then will I start to accept decisions on walking away or staying put and I've said I'd fight her on this. Funnily enough, *it was when she said that she wanted out that I thought "I've got nothing to lose now" so I let rip and told her what I thought.*. i.e. she couldn't make any decision at the moment and she should at least make a commitment to trying to save the marriage before making an ultimate decision. Life's too short for regrets.
> 
> *And she agreed with me!*


It sounds like when you showed leadership (and talking to her directly is leadership), she responded very well!

Building emotional trust has different components. Your acknowledging your shortcomings and changing your behavior is certainly very important. Lowering your own walls, forgetting your fear of rejection and loss, and just opening up to her is another important part. 

Be transparent with her. Don't hold back. Let your soul speak to hers. Be willing to feel pain.

You said she is dieting and enjoys reading. Are you reading the same book she is? Starting conversation with her about it? That would make her feel valued and appreciated, especially if she did not have to tell you to do this. Taking an interest in our spouse's interests is a way of showing love.

Could you read about her diet and fix the food for her? You seem to like activities, and that activity would also speak love to her. Joining her on the diet would show support, too.

Try to think in terms of nurturing her. What could you do that would create a loving, nurturing environment for her? One that she would not want to leave, would not even think of leaving, because it is just so comforting.

Basically, you want to make the thought of leaving less appealing than staying.


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

While i agree largely with jld, don't confuse being a leader with a fixer. Don't try to fix this. In the end, the only thing you can fix is yourself. 

And quit demanding she does this or that so save your marriage. She will, or not, do this on her own timeline.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EasyPartner said:


> While i agree largely with jld, *don't confuse being a leader with a fixer.* Don't try to fix this. In the end, the only thing you can fix is yourself.
> 
> And quit demanding she does this or that so save your marriage. She will, or not, do this on her own timeline.


EP, could you please give some examples, from the OP's posts, so he can be clear about this?

And I agree, OP, that you have to let go of trying to control the outcome. I think you are getting there, based on your post about how doing these things is making you a better man. Just want to encourage you to keep thinking that way.


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

jld said:


> EP, could you please give some examples, from the OP's posts, so he can be clear about this?
> 
> And I agree, OP, that you have to let go of trying to control the outcome. I think you are getting there, based on your post about how doing these things is making you a better man. Just want to encourage you to keep thinking that way.


E.g... him saying he won't accept her decision to leave except if she made a commitment about saving the marriage. 

And if she doesn't, he will fight her on it.

Been there, done that, in my darkest hours. Drives her away even faster.
QED


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EasyPartner said:


> E.g... him saying he won't accept her decision to leave except if she made a commitment about saving the marriage.
> 
> And if she doesn't, he will fight her on it.
> 
> ...


How do you really fight her on her decision to leave? 

I can see trying to persuade her to stay, especially by really listening to her, really seeking to understand her. 

But telling her you will fight her decision to leave by trying to control her in some way . . . that one I just don't understand, I guess.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Kvothe_The_Raven said:


> My consistency can only be shown over time but the change in attitude has been noticed and it has helped us talk on quite a deep level.


I agree that this will take time. But one thing to do is during the next time she brings this up, ask her opinion on your progress. Can she see any? is it progress in the right direction? If no, then ask her what she needs you to do be doing instead? If yes, then say you are glad and then be quiet.


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

jld said:


> How do you really fight her on her decision to leave?
> 
> I can see trying to persuade her to stay, especially by really listening to her, really seeking to understand her.
> 
> But telling her you will fight her decision to leave by trying to control her in some way . . . that one I just don't understand, I guess.


Exactly. It is trying to control things. Same as trying to fix. Men tend to do this. Doesn't work in relationships.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I agree that this will take time. But one thing to do is during the next time she brings this up, *ask her opinion on your progress. Can she see any? is it progress in the right direction? If no, then ask her what she needs you to do be doing instead? * If yes, then say you are glad and then be quiet.


I know I am big on verbal transparency, but I am not sure on this one. He will know he is doing well by her actions. He doesn't want to come off like he is seeking her approval. 

And more importantly, he does not want to seek her approval. He wants to change because it is making him a better man, with the added benefit of its helping the relationship, possibly.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EasyPartner said:


> Exactly. It is trying to control things. Same as trying to fix. Men tend to do this. Doesn't work in relationships.


I am surprised you tried to do this, EP. You don't seem controlling.


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I agree that this will take time. But one thing to do is during the next time she brings this up, ask her opinion on your progress. Can she see any? is it progress in the right direction? If no, then ask her what she needs you to do be doing instead? If yes, then say you are glad and then be quiet.


Wouldnt do that either.

Asking for reassurance is very human but counterproductive here. I would just observe her actions and look for the positive.

TAG, read Raven's other thread... this woman doesn't even know what she wants right now. Ask her enough and each time it will become clearer in her mind that it is not Raven.

@ jld: whoops you posted before me.


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

jld said:


> I am surprised you tried to do this, EP. You don't seem controlling.


A lot of men are hard wired this way jld... i know i am. 

Not shifting blame, but i was thaught this way too during my career in law enforcement and politics. With success.

And in my case, i did it with the best of intentions (like the REAL Machiavelli would have done).

I try to keep it under control though


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Well, I guess it shows you cared. You were trying to save the marriage. But it probably felt controlling to her. And if she was already set to leave, it was too late. Sorry, EP.

And sorry to t/j, OP. Back to your situation . . . 

You mentioned you were pulling away yourself a few years back, but changes in her brought you around. It sounds like you are trying to return the favor.

I took a look at the other thread. I agree with the others that it sounds like something off in her brain, likely from the meds. That sounds pretty serious, OP. I hope you will get, or continue getting, professional advice on this. A change in brain chemistry is more than my standard advice on transparency and active listening can help with.


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

jld said:


> I took a look at the other thread. I agree with the others that it sounds like something off in her brain, likely from the meds. That sounds pretty serious, OP. I hope you will get, or continue getting, professional advice on this. A change in brain chemistry is more than my standard advice on transparency and active listening can help with.


Of course it's serious. She's a WAW in the making.

But I think it would be too easy to blame everything on her meds. So she's imagining this perfect man... that is not Raven. And then everything would be better and she would be happy. Classic WAW.

Treat it as such. It's the best shot you have.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

EasyPartner said:


> Wouldnt do that either.
> 
> Asking for reassurance is very human but counterproductive here. I would just observe her actions and look for the positive.
> 
> ...


It is not about looking for reassurance. It is about getting her to stop and think about what she is saying.

I agree whole heartedly that her actions will tell a lot. But when she gets into a downward spiral in listing all of the negatives and dredging up the hurt from the past, interpreting to focus on the positive steps moving forward can be helpful.

Perhaps it won't work. But I am not sure that letting her dwell on the negative in those moments is healthy either.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

EasyPartner said:


> Ask her enough and each time it will become clearer in her mind that it is not Raven.


Yup. She already made that choice but I think she realises and agrees with me in that she shouldn't make that decision at the moment. She knows that her feelings are not "right" and she is still processing a lot of repressed feelings.

One thing I did do that I know most would shake their heads at and describe as pleading/needy behaviour is to request her to take MC seriously and from the perspective of trying to save our marriage even if the final outcome was still the ending of our relationship - at least we would both know that we tried. I felt confident when I requested this because I did not feel desperate - I felt a righteous anger at her defeatist attitude to the ideal of marriage which I hold in great esteem. 

My meaning behind this, which I think was taken on board rationally by my wife, was that MC was never going to work with a mixed agenda and for any chance of us rebuilding our marriage and working towards a great relationship we needed to be wanting the same things with each other. We have both discussed our ideals and the picture we both have of the perfect marriage is exactly the same. 

We want the same things in life - she just doesn't know whether she can have those things with me.. and _this_ is where I stop the conversation now and focus on the demonstration. 

I identify in conversation our similar ideals and then I act in a way to show that being together is a nice situation. I'm still learning in how to handle this best but I think I am learning. There are things that I say and do everyday now that do put a genuine smile on her face and whatever my mood, I always show her love, affection, gratitude, admiration and understanding without expecting reciprocation. My feelings and my demonstrations are genuine because I know I'm learning and that the atmosphere created is pleasant.

I realise that I can't continue like this indefinitely but at the moment that's what works and I cannot expect anything in return other than respect. And, to be honest, that's good enough for now because her actions do show that my efforts are appreciated and having a good effect. 

She's not falling in love with me but she is finding a new level of respect. Whatever happens, it won't happen overnight (like she wants) and will take time and outside professional help I think.

Thankfully I have understanding supportive friends to help me maintain some sanity and hope so I can remain positive around my wife. And thank you to the forum members here for "listening" and giving me perspective. :smthumbup:


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

jld said:


> You mentioned you were pulling away yourself a few years back, but changes in her brought you around. It sounds like you are trying to return the favor.


Sort of.. but not for her. For the relationship, yes, but for any relationship I have. There's not a hope in hell's chance of the marriage surviving if I didn't work to change the poor aspects of myself - my critical remarks, my poor self-esteem, my lack of passion for myself, my lack of respect and empathy and need to be right. 

I looked at myself objectively and figured these were detrimental traits from upbringing and personal history that were holding me back in life and love. So I decided to seek IC for help coping with my current situation and to improve my self-esteem and mental health in general.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Kvothe_The_Raven said:


> There's not a hope in hell's chance of the marriage surviving if I didn't work to change the poor aspects of myself - *my critical remarks, my poor self-esteem, my lack of passion for myself, my lack of respect and empathy and need to be right.*


Yep, those would be marriage-killers.

OP, it sounds like you are really trying. I hope it turns out the way you want.

If not, you will still have done a lot of work on yourself. Be proud of that.


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

The men on TAM are awesome. Your wife is a lucky woman Raven. I hope she realizes it before it's too late.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

Oh well, looks like I've totally ballsed up my efforts now. Things were not going well before, but they weren't going badly. We had regularly intimate discussions and spent time enjoying one another's company. However, during a discussion about the events that led to her feelings of anger and hurt, I was trying to get my head around my actions and explain to her my feelings, but in an effort to be radically honest it came out wrong.

Rather than explain that I had reservations and doubts about something until we had certainty, I said that part of me didn't believe her. Tactless, I know, but this has been interpreted as me calling her a liar, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Now she can't stand to have me in her personal space and feels uncomfortable and tense around me. She's totally apathetic. I think I lost this one.

We are still talking and sleeping in the same bed, but she says she's just taking one day at a time and needs to "sit with the pain".

I'm backing off now and just trying to work on getting my life on track but it's painful to think that after all the efforts and progress I may have been making, I slip up, revert to old argumentative habits and ruin everything in the blink of an eye.

I suppose one consolation is that she admits responsibility for not being honest with herself about her feelings and letting me think that everything was peachy perfect for such a long time. She also doesn't understand why she's reacted to everything so badly and why she's completely shut off from me.

 angry at myself right now...


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## ticktock33 (Jun 6, 2014)

I have a lot of experience with this. My husband and I have been going through the roughest time in our lives. But the funny thing is that aside from money problems, we're on very good terms.

It has taken literally 2 years to feel emotionally safe with him again. He apologizes all the time and lets me know how he feels with love. At first I laughed at him but then I realized he was serious and we're great now. 

It will take some time and don't rush it! Let her say or feel whatever she is feeling and reassure her constantly and show her that you love her! Take interest in what she likes, for example I LOVE coffee. So once in a while my husband takes me out for my favorite coffee. He surprised me and took me to the store to get a coffee maker out of the blue. We watch tv shows that we both like together, last year everyday after a long stressful day we watched a couple of episodes of Dr.Quinn medicine woman together. It became our thing and it was something we looked forward to everyday. Now we watch flight of the conchords.


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## bild-a-loco (Jan 22, 2014)

Raven, sorry things have taken a step backwards. My W is the one who's been neglectful and we're on the outs right now because I don't trust her and we're having similar problems, just the other way 'round. 

As the one on the receiving end, I can assure you, yes, everything she says and does is under a microscope to me now - it's not intentional, it's just a reflex and self-defense mode I suppose. She says much but is doing little. She cries and apologizes a lot, but does very little to make things any better. In your case and mine, ACTIONS will speak much louder than anything you can say, so you really don't have to say a lot - just DO everything you can to demonstrate a pattern of placing value in her and assuring her that she is VERY important to you - don't talk to her about it - JUST DO IT. Even if she's saying she wants to be left alone right now, acts of thoughtfulness and kindness to show you're thinking about her, 24/7, will help assure her where your head and heart are at. Put a couple of roses next to her car keys at night so she can find them in the morning, go find her whatever little treats she really enjoys and leave them randomly anywhere you can, whenever you can, without saying a word about it. Little things, showing you're putting forth effort, mean the world right now - much more than words, because I promise you - being on the other end of this problem - words mean very little right now and every single one of them is being seriously put under the microscope. 

Good luck, and try to remain patient and give this time - you didn't earn trust overnight, and you're not going to get it back overnight.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

ticktock33 said:


> Now we watch flight of the conchords.


Good choice! My wife and I often often sing Foux da fafa to one another. Baguette!

I was making some progress before by becoming involved in her new found interests; talking and sharing as well as getting involved where possible/appropriate, e.g. cooking meals that were taken from her dieting magazine etc.

I won't stop doing any of those things, I genuinely enjoy my time with her (as painful as it is that we're not engaging as a romantic couple). However, the mistakes I make along the way seem to dramatically undo any progress I may have previously made.

I have to look at the positives though; we are still living together, she knows her own issues to some degree, she openly shares her feelings with me and has said she'd take each day as it comes. Although, I can't shake the feeling we've hit rock bottom. The person that once absolutely adored me now feels uncomfortable around me. To know that those feelings stem from my misgivings makes it much worse.


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## HomeFrontDadAndMore (Sep 12, 2013)

bild-a-loco said:


> Raven, sorry things have taken a step backwards. My W is the one who's been neglectful and we're on the outs right now because I don't trust her and we're having similar problems, just the other way 'round.
> 
> As the one on the receiving end, I can assure you, yes, everything she says and does is under a microscope to me now - it's not intentional, it's just a reflex and self-defense mode I suppose. She says much but is doing little. She cries and apologizes a lot, but does very little to make things any better. *In your case and mine, ACTIONS will speak much louder than anything you can say, so you really don't have to say a lot - just DO everything you can to demonstrate a pattern of placing value in her and assuring her that she is VERY important to you - don't talk to her about it - JUST DO IT.* Even if she's saying she wants to be left alone right now, acts of thoughtfulness and kindness to show you're thinking about her, 24/7, will help assure her where your head and heart are at. Put a couple of roses next to her car keys at night so she can find them in the morning, go find her whatever little treats she really enjoys and leave them randomly anywhere you can, whenever you can, without saying a word about it. Little things, showing you're putting forth effort, mean the world right now - much more than words, because I promise you - being on the other end of this problem - words mean very little right now and every single one of them is being seriously put under the microscope.
> 
> Good luck, and try to remain patient and give this time - you didn't earn trust overnight, and you're not going to get it back overnight.


Sorry to hear the setback Raven, and I understand where you are too and am in the same place (akin to you Loco). For me it's one wrong word or expression and it feels like my entire effort is reset to zero. Loco, I think you're 100% on it - my only two cents is: don't prostrate yourself and go beta. That was my mistake for possibly 15 years (at least 8) and I'm starting perceive it only fed my W's perception of being 'wronged' and looked down on.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

HomeFrontDadAndMore said:


> Sorry to hear the setback Raven, and I understand where you are too and am in the same place (akin to you Loco). For me it's one wrong word or expression and it feels like my entire effort is reset to zero. Loco, I think you're 100% on it - my only two cents is: don't prostrate yourself and go beta. That was my mistake for possibly 15 years (at least 8) and I'm starting perceive it only fed my W's perception of being 'wronged' and looked down on.


Interesting you should mention about not succumbing to betaisation. I'm questioning my wife's motivation at times. We did discuss one time about the way she is and she did make it clear that she wasn't trying to punish me but I am staying to wonder at times whether it is done out of retribution/power wielding. Not consciously.. rather the hurt and anger means that there's no room to care about my feelings and on some level there's the thought of "well now you know how I felt". Even though I'm pretty sure that I never ever treated my wife with such disregard as I'm being treated - but that's subjective I suppose. I'm not complaining or whinging at her but, for example, just now I've spent time helping her with an event; driving her, getting things ready and fixing things for her, giving her support and encouragement only for her to disappear whilst my back is turned without any thanks. Then when I found her I asked why she'd gone and I was worried only to be sneered at and told not to speak to her like a child and it was yet another example of me being critical and how DARE I want to start an argument with her. I'm not putting this out of perspective. I was calm, respectful and concerned.. and just a tad hurt (but that's the norm these days). 

Am I getting this wrong? Am I wrong to voice concern at the moment? I don't feel that I deserve this treatment regardless of how much I've hurt her and I'm wondering how much of this had been enabled by me. Is this coming from a victim mentality and I'm only seen as the perpetrator of everything that's wrong in her life? (In her mind). I understand she's hurt and accepting that she doesn't feel it's possible to ever trust me again but I can't imagine treating her like this. May be I'm underestimating the level of detachment on her part but still..

I am resolved to save my marriage. I made that decision a while ago even if it didn't work - I want to know that I tried everything but in times like these I'm struggling to have any hope at all. I cannot see a way forward when she is so closed and unwilling to forgive/try. 

I don't have a problem standing up for myself but when anything I say is taken to be negative or disrespectful it's difficult to know when to speak and when to just nod and smile. I guess it comes down to knowing my personal boundaries and not kicking up a fuss when they aren't crossed. 

Right now I don't really feel I have the emotional strength and self respect to shrug it off when it's not overly important. Still waiting on IC and in the interim I feel like I'm taking a battering.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

I understand that any words and action I do are under the microscope at the moment. My predicament is that the long term cause of the hurt has been the way we've argued in the past. 

Demonstrating change in this respect would require arguments I guess, but anything I say that isn't happy-smiley-lovely is taken as negative criticism. I suppose I may be exaggerating, but that's how it feels. I have slipped up a couple of times recently out of frustration, but I am human and learning to get out of the lifetraps and destructive argumentative habits I've had for a lifetime. I'm going to forgive myself for that, but forgiveness doesn't come from my wife. I realise that's her problem, not mine, but I'd like to know from those that have been in my wife's shoes. 

It's too raw for deep discussions about our feelings at the moment and I feel that we should focus on being happy around one another - we've had one too many "talks" that have obliterated any connection. Regardless, I feel I'd be more patient if I had a deeper understanding of how my wife's feeling and what her thoughts are. To get to the state of shutting oneself off completely to avoid being hurt from the one you used to love wholeheartedly. I used to believe that it would take abuse or willful neglect to achieve that, but apparently not.

Truthfully, is it usually hopeless once it gets to this stage? I am having trouble understanding why there wouldn't be any willingness to try to overcome emotional barriers/hurt/resentment when it clearly makes both of us unhappy and yours truly is keen to mend themselves and build a better marriage.


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