# Leaving for quality of sex?



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I'm on the fence. Some days I think divorce is the only option, other days I don't know if it's worth it to break up a family, home, and lose someone I am comfortable with to take my chances at better _quality _of sex, especially when the issues I have with him/sex are ones that seem to be pretty common.

Some of the main issues are:

He doesn't view our Os equally

-He used to feel that it was up to me to touch myself or use a vibrator during sex if I wanted an O. He's _willing _ to not expect this but ultimately doesn't want my O to be his "job" 

-Since mine is "more work" he views sessions where he makes me O beforehand as something he is doing over and above norm. He thinks "I made you O" is something special and not just the base line. Like, his O is a given, is expected, the norm but mine is something he did special.
The only way I can explain this is like sometimes he will do the dishes and I come home and he's all 'Look! I did the dishes!!" and wants recognition for it, and I do, but at the same time it's like "I do the F*ing dishes everyday. Where's my medal?" 

-He doesn't think "I Oed, you Oed, it was a mutual session". It's more I take 20 minutes, he takes 5 so there's nothing wrong with getting a few quickies in between or a quick bj in the morning. He has never and I doubt ever would give me a standalone O. He doesn't think it's realistic to have every session a "long" one.

Lack of foreplay and seduction

-Once we are in bed he may spend 5 minutes on kissing and touching before going right to my vagina. I've told him a million times, taken his hand away and put it somewhere else. It just goes right back to my vagina. I've kind of given up trying to fix this but it makes sex less fun, my O take more time (if at all) 

-There's little to none outside the bedroom seduction. He'll grab my ass or rub the inside of my legs on the couch sometimes but in general it's "Let's go have sex" and we go or he just starts once we are already in the bed, right after we have woken up or right before we fall asleep. 

Willing but not wanting

-When he is trying to make me O, it's to make me happy and not because he enjoys doing whatever it is he is doing. At times he looks bored. I've told him "I want you to want to make me O because you enjoy doing it" and he'll say he does because he "wants to fix this" or because he "wants me to enjoy it, want it more and be happy" 

-He has told me that he doesn't like giving oral, it hurts his jaw and can't get in a good position to do it and just doesn't enjoy it once he's down there. The best he can tell me is that he will do it sometimes and that it's not off the table. He's done it once in the last 5 months and you could tell he wasn't enjoying it which makes it bad for me anyway. 

Then just in general, he's robotic. Like he's going off a list of things to do vs. just having passion and desire. 

And yes, I have talked about these things with him many times. There just isn't much further we can go with fixing things and it makes me not want sex as much. I want good sex and a good sex life but I also have almost 10 years invested in this. Kids, a home that is almost paid off and in a good place financially, comfort with him, traditions, projects, families and friends are all connected, plans for the future, etc. 

I'm torn every day about it and when I hear my peers talking about their sex lives, a lot of it is just more of the same so I feel defeated. 

So basically- is it worth it to leave for quality of sex? Does it ever get any better? If I stay will I just regret it years down the line?


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

Sounds like you have a selfish lover im sorry. Have you guys realy talked about this and how its impacting you? Is it maybe he just doesnt see how bad this is for you. Has the sex always been like this or something that has happened lately? I find a lot of issues in marriages (and this is more from a man's perspective) is that we can forget to date our wives. 

What we did before gets lost in the schedule of life and time goes by and you get in a rut. The problem is you want your wife to be hot for you still but you stopped the flirting, the grooming, the passion in getting you hot like before. 

I think if you have not please have a serious sit down with him and talk about this. But tell him its not the frequency of sex but the quality of it. Explain that how would he like it if you didnt have a passion in bed but just laid there, and got up before he orgasmed and said he could use his hand to get there. Get him to see it in black and white terms.

And cut out the bjs and say your jaw is too sore. I mean no oral cause of the positions is really what he told you? Sheesh. Good luck.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

The only thing that got me turned around was the lack of desire and passion from my wife. She always wanted it more than me, and I was pretty much just like your husband. I did like going down on my wife, but it too lacked passion. My problem was more stupidity than anything else.

Anyway, when I could tell that she started NOT liking sex and she too became robotic and less willing THAT is when I changed.

Been married 24 years and it's currently the very best sex I have ever had, with her or anyone else. It's long and it's passionate. We have this special hotel room we book every couple months. It's a suite that has the bedroom secluded with no windows or outside doors. We get VERY loud and nasty in that room. 

I am very pig headed and think I know everything. If I can change, anyone can. It is possible.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

This is a tough call - or would be for me. I stayed with my ex for many years despite a decided lack of sex, but when we did have it, it was usually pretty good. To some extent, it may depend on how good the rest of the relationship is - especially emotional intimacy and overall happiness. Having kids makes the decision even harder, of course. We do make sacrifices for our kids. On the other hand, your long-term health and well-being is important too, and good co-parenting is better than them modeling after an unhappy relationship, IMO.

Personally, I will never again enter or stay in a relationship with poor or low frequency sex. It's not worth it, and my happiness and well-being suffer. Then the relationship suffers. Better to deal with this ASAP, IMO - even if that's after 10 or 20 years of putting up with it. It's also very rare to fix these kinds of problems, so I don't think you'll get him to change his attitudes and aversions. Ask yourself if you will be resentful in another 10 or 20 years if nothing has changed, and will you regret passing up something that is clearly important to you?

Anyway, if you are compelled to ask the question, then I already think the answer for you is: Yes, it is worth leaving.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> He doesn't view our Os equally
> 
> He's _willing _ to not expect this but ultimately doesn't want my O to be his "job"


I would tell him, "Since my 'O' isn't YOUR "job", then YOUR 'O' isn't *MY* job, either!" And I would STOP having sex with him unless and until he agrees that sex is supposed to be MUTUALLY satisfying, and puts some effort into it! He seems completely selfish, and simply wants to use your body to get off. All on _his_ terms. 


In fact, I would stop doing ANYTHING and EVERYTHING for this man, until he becomes reasonable. Stop cooking for him...stop talking to him or watching t.v. with him. Stop doing errands for him. 

The only thing on the table for discussion would be his selfishness in bed and how HE can solve it. I would not engage in ANY other communication other than that, no matter what HE says or does. I would give it a few months. If at the end of that time he hasn't made any effort to become more giving in the bedroom, I'd cut my losses. 


Some might say that if you stopped having sex with him, you'd be "withholding" sex. Actually, what you'd be doing is protecting yourself from being used.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

We've had several sit downs. It used to be worse and the talks have gotten it to this point but this is likely as good as it's going to get.
He understands my POV, he "wants to make me happy" is as much as I'm going to get. 
We have 1 outside date night a week and 1 inhouse movie/date night to ourselves. We now spend at least 15 hours a week alone time and meet each other's needs outside of this issue. 

I rarely give Bjs anymore. Likely will stop them 100%.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

What do you think would happen to your marriage if you followed vega's approach, SGC?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> We've had several sit downs. It used to be worse and the talks have gotten it to this point but this is likely as good as it's going to get.
> He understands my POV, he "wants to make me happy" is as much as I'm going to get.
> We have 1 outside date night a week and 1 inhouse movie/date night to ourselves. We now spend at least 15 hours a week alone time and meet each other's needs outside of this issue.
> 
> I rarely give Bjs anymore. Likely will stop them 100%.


I think what you need to do is start declining sex. I guess my wife just gave up on me. However, she did this naturally, not as a passive aggressive move. Only then did I change.

In her mind, after 20 years of marriage she figured that change was impossible and simply gave up. She started saying no to sex and if we did have sex it was crappy. On my own I started researching and turned things around. Because I let it go for so long, it took a good 3-4 years to get her back in the game. 

Better late than never, I guess.


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## Pkwanderer (Aug 3, 2014)

Not having a good sex life is not a good reason to leave a marriage. I know what you mean and your husband seems to be a very selfish lover. Well, for one, you should give BJ's on a quid pro quo basis..........ie he gets it when you get it as well, otherwise just leave it. You say you have time invested in this marriage. Marriages are not meant to be broken like this. Having a bad sex life is tough to say the least, but if you can, focus on your life and more on your kids & work. This might take your thoughts off on sex and maybe you will enjoy life more.
If you had nothing invested in this marriage, then I would have definitely recommended you otherwise, but not when your whole life is invested in this. Talk with him, spell out your needs, desires & wants. Tell him what you like & what you don't. If he listens, you are lucky but if he doesn't then he should get as much as he gives.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

He is not HD to begin with. Saying no to sex wouldn't really matter much to him, he would just take it as rejection and not try again or rarely try again. He wants a sex life to make me happier and make the marriage better, not because he needs one to fulfill his own needs. He likes sex, wants it, but doesn't need it. 

He says that having more sex would boost his need and things would get more natural and he would want it more meaning he would put in more work.
When I have gone with that approach it has helped a tiny bit, getting us to where it is now. 

Having no sex doesn't do anything to make him try harder. We would just become sexless.


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## Bam-bam (Sep 24, 2015)

This is a tough one. I am dealing with a 10 year sexless marriage. I know what it feels like to have no sex for a long time. I also know what it feels like to have bad sex... because in many early attempts to force it to happen, i went through a lot of bad sex that was entirely one sided. In my honest opinion, bad sex is just as bad as no sex. ....sometimes, bad sex is actually worse. Especially if bad sex is the norm. It's frustrating. So I get it. I really REALLY get it. Some people may give you a bit of a hard time over this but I certainly won't. I know what you're going through. It's not small potatoes. I'm sure the decision to stay or leave over it is going to be difficult for you. It sounds like you are addressing the issue but getting resistance. Have you told him that it's serious enough for you to think of leaving? Its always tough to decide to let the D word fly out of your mouth and into the open but if it's truly something you think you would pull the trigger on, it may be worth getting out there sooner rather than later. Maybe he doesn't think it's effecting you to the level that you are feeling it? It's tough though, because I let the D word fly out and now all the improvement I see seems like a shallow victory. It's nice to get what I want ... but I want it because she wants to make me happy, not because she's afraid of the consequences. If you have to twist their arm and drag the to the bedroom kicking and screamimg, it hardly feels like a loving and welcome gesture when they comply. So, that's something to keep in mind if you decide to get brutally honest with him and tell him it's becoming a deal breaker. Still, it might light a fire under his ass and get the results you need.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I wouldn't stop trying until you've really had a cut to the issues serious talk with him about this and how much it hurts you and the marriage. If he's not willing to change then you have a decision to make, but the grass may not always be greener somewhere else and you have the good of the family to consider. Someone else may be worse, you just never know. I think it would be worth it to work together on these problems and little by little things could get better.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

It's hard because he is willing to do things, I just can't get him to the wanting part.

Like I tell him I must O in every session. So he will do it, because it's important to me and he wants me to be happy. But ultimately I know that he would prefer that I touch myself during sex or use a toy vs. him doing the work. And I know that he thinks quickies should be NBD when we don't have the time to get me to O. 
He thinks that I am more demanding that many other women and that what I am asking for he will do for me, not because it should just be the norm. 

But he'll do it, just not for the right reasons IMO, which makes it less fun and less passion and less enjoyable.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> He is not HD to begin with. Saying no to sex wouldn't really matter much to him, he would just take it as rejection and not try again or rarely try again. He wants a sex life to make me happier and make the marriage better, not because he needs one to fulfill his own needs. He likes sex, wants it, but doesn't need it.
> 
> He says that having more sex would boost his need and things would get more natural and he would want it more meaning he would put in more work.
> When I have gone with that approach it has helped a tiny bit, getting us to where it is now.
> ...


On of the things I did was get a prescription for Androjel and Viagra. This gave me the cave man boost I needed. It also increased my desire, and passion. I guess testosterone is what makes a man a man. 

Once I felt that 18 year old lust run through my veins, the rest came naturally.

The Androjel works very fast. I could tell a difference in 3 days. When I've got a "hotel" scheduled I put on some extra Androjel for several days prior to get me grunting for the rut.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

He had his T tested. It was 16 nmol. He is 40. Dr said it should be between 10-30 and his was a little low but nothing to medicate.

ETA I did a conversion since I've seen mostly a different measurement on here

16 nmol/l
4.61 ng/ml
461 ng/dl


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

A couple's sex counsellor might help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> He had his T tested. It was 16 nmol. He is 40. Dr said it should be between 10-30 and his was a little low but nothing to medicate.
> 
> ETA I did a conversion since I've seen mostly a different measurement on here
> 
> ...


I would still get the Androjel or other testosterone supplement.
I too was on the low scale, but not that low. All I told my doctor is "I don't feel 18 anymore." Bingo, Androjel and Viagra. In fact, my doctor said "I don't treat a number, I treat the symptoms."

I had no problems getting an erection. However, I just wanted to feel more desire, more passion, harder, stronger, etc.
I told the doctor this and he was OK with it.

A week or two of Androjel and a Viagra on a empty stomach will turn a wishy washy guy into a beast. It did me.

To me, Testosterone and Viagra are for enhancement, not for raising the dead.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

He holds your passion hostage and uses it to manipulate you. He doesn't even realize he's doing it. He knows what you want and he gives you just enough so that he can say..."I'm giving you what you want!" Whether he really believes it himself or whether he is used to manipulating those around him to get what he wants, you probably know which one it is. You're not stupid. You know.


When your kids need you do you give them what THEY need or do you give only what you can possibly get away with? Why do you give them what they need? Why is their happiness important to you? Do you see your husband giving your kids the same quality of care and concern that you give them? Or is he distant, giving them only so much love and attention so that he doesn't look like a sh!tty father?

If you see him giving to his kids from a place of care and concern than you know that he is capable and he intentionally is with holding that from you.

If you see him being a bit distant, wanting a parade for giving normal parenting concern, then you know he isn't capable of loving you all the way. What he loves about you is that you make him feel good because you love him. For him, love is passive and receptive. It's not reciprocal, it's not active. 

This. Won't. Change.

He has to WANT you to be happy but right now his motivation is to keep himself from looking like the selfish SOB that he really is. 

You need to put him at the fork in the road where he has to decide if he will continue to lie to himself or seek deeper understanding. You can jump to this fork by filing for legal separation and telling him when he gets his sh!t together maybe you'll work it out. Then you let him figure it out and he either does, because he wants to keep you, or he doesn't because it's more important to him that he remain in his comfort zone.

You have allowed doubt to creep in, thinking what if he's right and you are asking too much. He is not right. You are asking for true emotions and true reciprocity. 

Although this problem manifests itself most vividly with sex, this is not a sexual problem. This man doesn't know how to love and for right now, he refuses to consider the idea that HIS love is lacking.

You need to cut him off and cut him out because it's the only way his self centered eyes will see.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@UMP, 

You bring up some excellent strategies to get SGC's husband physiologically into the game. That's good stuff there!

You're not a passive guy. You're not a man who lets problems stew for a while to see if it works itself out without you having to do anything. You're active, you involved and you take pride in how well you actively solve problems. You OWN your sh!t.

But when your wife was no longer into sex and turning you away what made you realize that maybe YOU had to do something about you, instead of pushing your wife to do something so you could get what you wanted? What prompted you to look at yourself and what prompted you to actually DO something?


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It's hard because he is willing to do things, I just can't get him to the wanting part.
> 
> Like I tell him I must O in every session. So he will do it, because it's important to me and he wants me to be happy. But ultimately I know that he would prefer that I touch myself during sex or use a toy vs. him doing the work. And I know that he thinks quickies should be NBD when we don't have the time to get me to O.
> He thinks that I am more demanding that many other women and that what I am asking for he will do for me, not because it should just be the norm.
> ...


While I can relate to your feelings, I wonder if this is deeper than the sex. How is your relationship otherwise? Does he meet your needs outside of the bedroom?

Also, you say he will do what you ask, but he doesn't do it for the right reasons, that you want and need more passion from him. To me it sounds like he is TRYING to please you, trying to do what you want and need - because he loves you and wants you to be happy. That sounds like the right reasons to me. If he was totally selfish he would not even try. 

Perhaps you are asking for more than he can give right now. Perhaps showing passion is not natural for him and he doesn't know how to do it. It doesn't mean he doesn't have passion for you. Just as some men get a poor education and faulty expectations about sex from porn, sometimes women get a poor education and faulty expectations about relationships and love from romance books and media. I am not saying this is you, just throwing out the thought that sometimes expectations can be skewed.

You have children and a lot of years invested in your marriage. I would strongly urge you to seek counseling from a good sex therapist (they are trained as regular counselors with additional education and experience with sexual issues - so they will also work on your whole relationship). Before you even consider leaving the marriage you should seek professional help to try to address your issues first. I am guessing you both have work to do on your marriage to make it better.

Also, you could get the book "His needs/ Her needs" and read it together to help facilitate some dialogue.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
If sex is important to you and you have tried and failed to improve your sex life, then I think divorce is an OK option. It may be better than a lifetime of resentment for not being able to have the sex life that you want.

Some people are just not that into sex, or are poor / selfish lovers. From discussions here that rarely changes long term.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I just read some of your other threads. It sounds like you have already decided to leave your marriage. Have you tried counseling first?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I'm not so sure he has malicious intent and I think he wants to make me happy. 

I think the block comes from a few different problems. 

One being that he's never been with a woman who was able to voice her needs, they would always just touch themselves during sex or use a toy and Oing would be their responsibility most of the time, he would make her O every now and then... like a treat or special event, so he always assumed he was doing things right and that me asking for different was just a me thing. We've talked about it enough that he understands logically but emotionally I think he's still of the idea that Os are not viewed as equal. Add that to previous porn usage and you have to undo years of wrong education and misconceptions about sex. 

He's never had to be the initiator before so that part, the seduction outside the bedroom, is new to him and he has said he is not comfortable with it and "feels like an idiot" when he tries. He doesn't like to fail so if he tries something and it doesn't work he feels rejected and like he failed and won't want to try again. Sometimes he'll tell me that he was planning on doing this and that and I'll ask him why the heck he didn't and he'll say because it just seemed cheesy and thought I wouldn't like it anyway.

Then he what he says he feels his biggest hurdle is avoiding doing it wrong and disappointing me. He says he is so focused on making sure he does what I like and that I enjoy it that it has made him stiff and robotic and in his head, which makes me not enjoy it would makes him worse... and on and on. He feels there is too much pressure and I can feel it too, I know he would rather be getting off himself than me, because of all the pressure I take a long time to finish or will just try forever until I give up, which makes him feel these kinds of sessions are not realistic for every day.


So whatever reasons for this are, I don't think he's doing it to intentionally hurt me, just passively.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> @UMP,
> 
> You bring up some excellent strategies to get SGC's husband physiologically into the game. That's good stuff there!
> 
> ...


Actually, I always thought something was wrong with my wife. I thought I needed to change HER. The reason I was not that much into sex at first was because she was not as kinky or sleezy as I had hoped. I wanted her to be a porn star and she was not. The part I did not realize is that if I wanted her to be a porn star I needed to be the man she could be a porn star with.

A couple weeks ago after sex I told my wife how great it was and how sexy she was. She replied with "you taught me everything I know."

THAT is what I think most married men are missing. They miss the fact that they MUST be the leader. If you want to go on a sexual journey with your wife, you have to take the first step.

I always wanted great, hot sex in a relationship. I figured it would simply happen. Not so. If you want LONG term great sex in a relationship it takes commitment and work. Every interaction I have with my wife impacts the sex, EVERY THING.

At this point, it's a fun game I play. I enjoy every part of it. Figuring out her moods, when and how to engage, figuring out which toys to buy and when to use them, etc. etc. etc. It's all very fascinating and enjoyable.

The only reason I ended up changing was because "I" was all that was left. I tried to change her and it did not work, so I changed me. I also pray about sex on a daily basis. My prayer is "God make me become the man that my wife WANTS and is EXCITED to have sex with."


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

my take:

- you can't make him want you. 

- you have to be honest with yourself about (1) what your needs really are and (2) what your priorities in life really are at this point in time.

- be honest with yourself about whether he is actually capable of meeting your needs. Is there a realistic scenario where your needs will be met? If there is something easily fixable, fix it, but if you've done that already, consider that it might not be resolveable in the way you wish it was.

- if you've gotten to the point where you're admitting that he can't meet this need, then stop investing your energy in trying to get him to meet it. It is a futile effort at that point.

- Instead, invest your energy in either (1) getting out or (2) figuring out a way to stick it out with the knowledge that this need will not be fulfilled by him. Going with option 2 assumes you have determined that you have a higher priority than sexual fulfillment that requires you to stay married to him (i.e., keeping your family intact). If you choose option 2, do it with the knowledge that it is a conscious choice and drop the expectation that he will come around. This will only breed unhappiness and resentment.


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## BiscuitMom (Oct 16, 2009)

I don't know. I think it's quite selfish on your part to feel that EVERY session must end in a O for you, especially when you do require a lot of work to reach it. You say he must do this, this, and this without your help and spend a minimum of 20 minutes to please you, but you don't want to spend 5 minutes to please him because it does nothing for you? 

Yes, sex should be mutual but that doesn't mean it has to occur at same time. There are times in my relationship, that I have a quickie with my husband for no reason than to please him. There are times we spend a long time on me and a little on him. Most of the time we are in sync because I know what I need

Now, there are times (Often if he has been drinking, has other stress, etc) that I just can't seem to get him to orgasm. We have been at it for awhile. My hand cramps, my mouth gets tired, or my legs get tired. Physically, I am exhausted and uncomfortable. Mentally, I feel inadequate. At this point, it becomes very hard to pretend that I just want to please him because it would be pretend. I'm worn out mentally and physically. I am going through the motions to make him happy because I love him. My own ability to orgasm starts to wane. At this point, my husband recognizes that it's been going on "too long" and will "lend a hand" to help me out or stops the sessions because he feels it's being unfair to me.

Now don't get me wrong. I do think your pleasure your matters and sex should be a mutual relaxing and fun experience. We also went through a Wham, Bam, roll over and snore period of time that left me months without an orgasm though I typically orgasm easily and quickly. No foreplay, no finishing me off, no concern for my O. So, you bet my interest started waning. IN your case, it sounds to me that he is trying to please you, but I bet he's feeling a bit inadequate and a bit resentful that he has to put in a lot more effort than you do. You want it to be fair orgasm for orgasm but he wants it to be fair minutes to minutes or effort to effort. You guys need to do a bit more giving and taking and working out compromises (as I see it, it's a bit of both of you at fault). What are you doing to help things along? Do you expect the orgasm to be all his work or do you help out with the vibrator or your hand? When he does get you off, how do you respond? Do you make him feel manly? (Yes, stereotypically men need a lot of praise for the things we do all day long. Drives me nuts too but sometimes, it's just better to go with it instead of arguing over it). I main feeling is that at a certain point, sex is no longer fun or relaxing for him because of the amount of effort he has to put in on a regular basis, but you are not willing to put in effort for him in return.

My perspective: If your spouse need specialized cooking for dinner each night (For whatever reason, allergies, etc). It takes a lot of time for the make these dinners. Some days, you don't have the time, the energy, but you keep trying because you love them. It makes your hands cramp or your feet get tired standing there. You tell them that some of their meals should be their own responsibility because you need a break, but they feel the cooking is all your responsibility. Yes, you get to eat the dinner too, but somedays you just want your favorite fast food that your spouse can't eat. Yet, even though you keep making these specialized meals that take 20-30 minutes long to prepare, they feel like it's unfair to spend 5 minutes stopping by McDonald's on the way home to pick you something you want because they can't eat it. Again, there should be some give and take from you both.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

UMP said:


> Actually, I always thought something was wrong with my wife. I thought I needed to change HER. The reason I was not that much into sex at first was because she was not as kinky or sleezy as I had hoped. I wanted her to be a porn star and she was not. The part I did not realize is that if I wanted her to be a porn star I needed to be the man she could be a porn star with.
> 
> A couple weeks ago after sex I told my wife how great it was and how sexy she was. She replied with "you taught me everything I know."
> 
> ...



:::reamy sigh::::

Well done UMP! You serve as an example to other men because I think any woman who read what you just wrote is nodding her head and saying that's it exactly!


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I'm not so sure he has malicious intent and I think he wants to make me happy.
> 
> I think the block comes from a few different problems.
> 
> ...


It sounds like he does not have much confidence in himself. 

In the past several years my husband has developed problems having orgasms. He can have them, but it takes a lot of time and a lot of effort from both of us. My experience with this is helping me to relate to what your husband may be feeling or going through. 

Sometimes, I try really hard to help my husband, and I worry about doing something wrong or saying something wrong that will cause him to loose the momentum. Sometimes, actually a lot of the times, I am so worried about helping him, that I feel like I am going through the motions only, which makes the sex not good or very enjoyable for me. And I know he has times where he feels the same way when I have a hard time having an orgasm. Sometimes I feel like I am not sexy enough or desirable enough, that I am causing him to not orgasm. I know intellectually that is not the case, but sometimes my emotions go there anyways. Problems with sex can cause all kinds of mind issues, which can affect performance or our enjoyment of it. 

We don't get educated about sex relationships. Becoming a good lover is a learned art. Some are quicker learners than others, some are lucky to have a natural talent for it. Others struggle with it, but want to learn, and then there are some who are lazy and could care less if they are good at it or not. 

I don't know your whole story and I don't know which of the above best describes your husband, but if you are thinking about leaving your marriage only because of the lack of quality of sex, I think you really owe it to your husband and to your kids to get some professional help first, if you have not already done so. Perhaps he is one who wants to be better, but doesn't know how and your way of teaching him isn't working. A professional may be able to help him, and you.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I'm on the fence. Some days I think divorce is the only option, other days I don't know if it's worth it to break up a family, home, and lose someone I am comfortable with to take my chances at better _quality _of sex, especially when the issues I have with him/sex are ones that seem to be pretty common.
> 
> Some of the main issues are:
> 
> ...


full disclaimer I have never been in a crappy sex relationship and wouldn't But yes I do think leaving for quality sex is an absolute valid reason. Sex is what separates an intimate realtionship from a friendship so it is not only important but critical.


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## DallasCowboyFan (Nov 20, 2012)

You might try different positions to see if it helps his jaw, hover over his head while facing the headboard and see if that position helps. It works for me. I have to think that if he loves you and wants to please you, he could spend an extra 15 minutes each time. My wife is LD and her fun bits are pretty small, so she prefers a lelo lily over oral, but I am the operator and I know if I get something going, I need to take the time to get it out and make sure she enjoys it too. If that doesn't happen, she may not want to do anything next time. I think it is really selfish to not want to please your partner. Just my take. If you marry someone for life, why wouldn't you want to make them happy. And since sex is something you only share with them, anything that can make it more special just strengthens the marital bond. We have sure had our struggles, but I am not sure I could stay if she didn't want to satisfy me.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I'm not so sure he has malicious intent and I think he wants to make me happy.
> 
> I think the block comes from a few different problems.
> 
> ...


This makes you the band leader, the conductor, the orchestrator and it takes all responsibility off his shoulders.

Timidity, fear, and laziness are holding him back. You see this. He knows this. But these are HIS issues, not yours.

I know a thing or two about timidity and fear wrt sex. I know this sounds hard ass but dammit if I can do so can HE! 

Did he never wonder if those other women who seemed content with getting themselves off didn't stick around because they didn't feel cared for?

There is a whole big world full of information at his fingertips. All he has to do is read it. It is not your job to turn him into the kind of lover that a woman would actually want to have sex with.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> :::reamy sigh::::
> 
> Well done UMP! You serve as an example to other men because I think any woman who read what you just wrote is nodding her head and saying that's it exactly!


Do you for-real believe this? I'm a big boy, I won't be offended by the implications if you want to say yes.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

UMP's situation is cool, but by any standard his is an exceptional effort.

OP shouldn't determine she is failing if she isn't willing to spend 100% of her energy cracking her husband's sex code.

My personal view is that is shouldn't really be so hard.

It happens naturally for most people all of the time. Sometimes it's nobody's fault-- you're just not compatible.

By all means work at it, but I think it is important to recognize that it's sometimes just not worth it.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> :::reamy sigh::::
> 
> Well done UMP! You serve as an example to other men because I think any woman who read what you just wrote is nodding her head and saying that's it exactly!


Don't get me wrong. I still fail and screw things up. However, I like to think that I learn along the way. That's the important part, learning.

My wife still has bounderies that I have not been able to cross. In the past this would really piss me off and I would get passive aggressive or just plain shiity. Now, I simply take what is given to me and rock it to it's maximum.

I will use a race car analogy. 

Before a race, drivers will try and get their car to handle or act in such a way that enables them to drive each particular track the fastest. This NEVER happens perfectly. You always end up with a car that is lacking in one degree or another. Bad drivers get pissy and complain about this and that, or say "I can't drive this piece of shiit fast" etc. and give up.

The great drivers take what they are given and LEARN as they drive to adapt to the car and change their driving style to accommodate the cars weakness, not the other way around. More often than not, those are the drivers that win the championship.

I can't win each battle, but I think I'm going to win the war.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> This makes you the band leader, the conductor, the orchestrator and it takes all responsibility off his shoulders.
> 
> Timidity, fear, and laziness are holding him back. You see this. He knows this. But these are HIS issues, not yours.
> 
> ...


That's pretty harsh Anon. I understand what you are saying, that he bears the responsibility to improve himself. But he is not here. This is a marriage and its not about a man learning to please woman, it's about a couple working together to learn to please each other and enjoy it themselves in the process. Reading about pleasing women does not always translate into being able to please your wife.

The thing is, it sounds like the OP is seriously considering ending the marriage. Yet, she has says he is trying. Perhaps he is not trying hard enough. I don't know. But seeking professional help to try to sed if this can be fixed seems like a better option then just calling it quits now. Seeking professional help does not take away the husband's responsibility. He will still have to step up to the plate and do his best or lose his marriage.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

The only contribution I will make is, you must decide if the low quality sex is intolerable or tolerable to you. 

I think people get into committed relationships for various reasons, and some reasons are higher on the importance list than others. Something we see in abundance here is 1.) one partner thinks X is really important and the other partner thinks X is less or least of all important or 2.) both partners think X is really important in the beginning, but over time, children, and all other manner of libido destroying entities, one partner starts to see it as less important while the other partner still sees it as really important. 

You need to decide if this is 1.) really important to you (kind of a given since you posted about it) and 2.) whether you can live without it. If you can't, then I'd leave. Picture yourself 10 years from now. Where would you be then, if things as they are now, continue?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> The only way I can explain this is like sometimes he will do the dishes and I come home and he's all 'Look! I did the dishes!!" and wants recognition for it, and I do, but at the same time it's like "I do the F*ing dishes everyday. Where's my medal?"


OMG when it comes to dishes, I am the exact same way, and I am talking about the dishes and not using it as a metaphor for sex. ...but let's explore why a man would be so excited he did the dishes?

For one, it is not something I do all the time, so when I do it, it actually requires a great deal of effort to motivate myself, because I do not seeing as something I need to do. So when I say, "Look! I did the dishes!!" I am actually pointing out that I am trying to go out of my way to help.

There are many thankless jobs I do around the house like cutting grass, taking out the garbage, handling the oil changes on the car, fixing holes in the wall, replacing light bulbs, troubleshooting wifi problems, fixing the printer, running wiring through the attic for a new receptacle my wife wants, hanging a new medicine cabinet in the bathroom, replacing the caulk in the master shower, unclogging the kitchen sink, unclogging the toilet, maintaining the crawl space vents to save on heating during the winter, finding and fixing leaks under the house and in the attic, planting bushes when one dies, painting the mailbox, pressure washing the driveway, replacing the towel rack in the bathroom the kids tore down, replacing the coasters in the closet door that broke, fixing the garage door when it breaks, cleaning up oil spills in the driveway, replacing the battery in the car, fixing flat tires, killing ants in the yard and house, cleaning out the cat's water dispenser in the garage, getting the garbage disposal unstuck when something jams in it, replacing a blown fuse in the breaker box, fixing a drain pipe under the house that came unhung and clogged, watering the lawn, repairing storm damage to the house, installing new shelves in the closet, moving heavy furniture, unclogging the vacuum cleaner, replacing shorted electrical cords, backing up the computers, moving something heavy out of the attic, repairing a broken doorway hinge, repainting the trim in the house, unclogging the toilet AGAIN, replacing a broken toilet seat, unclogging the faucet at the sink that has become oxidized over time, replacing the heating elements on the stove, replacing the over-the-counter microwave, replacing a ceiling fan, setting up music speakers in the kitchen, repairing the deck, resealing the deck, fixing a broken swing on the swing set, unclogging a storm drain, ...so on and so on... and this is the order that these things usually happen.

By contrast, washing the dishes would be a nice routine to get into in exchange for not having to be responsible for all unpredictable and chaotic things above that most men do and never expect to be thanked.

Badsanta

PS: My favorite one ever.... When my MIL broke the dishwasher and looked at me and just said, "I don't know," I was expected to fix it. Long story short she thought there was a food disposer built into my dishwasher and there was not and the impeller motor burned up. A new impeller motor was $50 and I had to take apart the entire machine while it was full of the most god awful rotten food you could ever imagine. Not only did I not get a thank you, but I got even fussed at for not being in a pleasant mood while I worked on it and my wife said she would not tolerate me cussing and hitting at the dishwasher, and if I was going to be that way she would just leave!


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

badsanta said:


> cleaning up oil spills in the driveway,


Time saving tip. The best way to clean up oil spills on concrete is with brake cleaner fluid in a can. Spray at an angle and it disappears without scrubbing. True dat!

Will not work on blacktop.

I digress.

What my wife finds most attractive is when I do things without telling her I did them, regardless of what it is. Like superman, the first one.:smile2:


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Do you for-real believe this? I'm a big boy, I won't be offended by the implications if you want to say yes.



Yeah, I really do for real believe it.

Great sex doesn't come naturally. Barriers have to come down. Inhibitions have to come down. It takes effort to do that. 

Your wife has told you exactly what she wants and what she will tolerate. At a snails pace you've pushed ever so gently. I've always wondered how she would handle it if you brought her to the edge then backed away, several times. Then walked away without giving her the efficient no frills orgasm she wants. I've always wondered how your wife might respond to you absolutely taking charge and followed your own game plan but within her limits. She teases you because she shows you she is capable of arousal and very efficient. What would happen if you turned her efficiency on its rear and challenged her view of her limitations? Would you really end up in jail for not giving your wife her no frills O?

I used to think my husband could have and should have done a LOT more to get me out of my head. Was kinda mad at him because he didn't. Then I realized I was the only one who could get me out of my head. But something had to push me to do it. Something had to motivate me to figure it out and work on it. He checked out. I was alone. That's what motivated me and pushed me to work on it. He checked out and I was alone and didn't like it. He could have done other things, he could have directly helped. But that would have taken a great deal of time and effort not to mention a lot of education to better understand. So he could have, it wasn't impossible, just really difficult and complicated.

How much effort? That's up to you to decide. Where's the goal line? That's also up to you. 

I'm good with what I have. It's not the goal line I was working toward but it's close enough.
@mary35

It's harsh because it's the harsh reality. This isn't about technique although that plays a role. Therapy only works if you work it. If you don't work it, nothing changes and you've wasted your money. 

She has told her husband that this is what she needs to feel loved. And his reply is that's really hard to do because I don't think I can do it right and I've never had to so this before and this isn't at all what I thought love and sex was like... Bla bla bla. Excuses and minimizing. I know this because I've lived this.

SGC needs to say, "this is what I need from you. Decide if this is too much or not. No more excuses. Make a decision. Are you in or are you out."

Her husband can do this, it's not brain surgery. But it does take effort.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Just saying, we don't know that this man is doing of the above kinds of things. I was married to a man for 16 years who didn't do this stuff. I did a lot of it, and we hired people...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Well he's certainly not doing a bunch of unappreciated work. He's just gotten to the point where it's a little more balanced.
Other areas of the marriage are more balanced as well. 

He'll read things, watch videos, it just gets him more into mechanical list mode. When I tell him that he agrees and will say he also wishes it was more natural and less pressure and in his head. 
He always just has the same suggestion- just keep doing it until it's better and more comfortable but in the meantime not expect it to be good, for now. 

I go back and forth with therapy, I don't know if they will say anything that we don't already know TBH and the closest one is still pretty far from us and cost quite a bit. 

If I don't divorce and nothing changes I think it is likely that we will just end up sexless as I just won't want to bother doing it anymore when I don't get much out of it.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Your husband likes sex, he just doesn't like women......

I have always been endlessly fascinated by the female body, and have always been willing to engage in foreplay for long periods of time. My wife is my instrument, and our music is her orgasm....

Lets face it, a guy can cum in 30 seconds if he wants....How satisfying is that....

but a 2 hour concert of stroking, kissing, touching, oral sex, leading up to her orgasm is fantastic...

The last time we had sex, we were lying back relaxing, and I realized I had been unconsciously stroking, fondling, and touching her body for at least 10 minutes (she loves being stroked). I am big on touch...

When you give him that morning BJ, I'll bet you try to get it over as soon as possible....Try turning the tables on him...Massage, stroke, fondle him, give him oral, totally without any input from him....Make it last a LONG time...Show him how sensuous sex can be....Show him the kind of sex you want and need....It is easy to get hooked on that kind of thing...Good luck..


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Stop having sex with him. Stop initiating, stop asking, stop giving him movies and books and ideas.

Just stop.

He doesn't care about your pleasure. Right now.

Go on with your life. Put a smile on your face, be happy. Be out in the world. Come home with a smile on your face. Have fun with other things. Eat well, exercise, be with good friends.

Do this for a few months. If he tries to have sex with you, put your pleasure first, not his. If he won't, then don't.

If he doesn't try to have sex with you at all, then start making plans to leave, and let him know that you're not going to stay sexually unsatisfied for the rest of your life.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I have already started doing a lot of that. He'll start rubbing my legs and butt in the morning or at night, if he tries to go to my vagina too quickly I'll just get up and leave. I've refused all but 2 times of any sexual activity that wouldn't involve my pleasure. 
This is usually when we'll get into the conversation of how I need to lower my expectations until sex becomes more natural and how doing it more will make him want it more and do more for me.

ETA- I typically try to avoid talking about it anymore until something like this happens

Edit 2- This is also where a lot of the issues come from where I feel he would rather just do it easy and he's only doing what I want because I'll be upset otherwise/not happy or that he's only doing it because I am telling him to and not because he wants to.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Again, my view--

as soon as sex becomes some kind of negotiation, it's pointless.

you're not hammering out a contract to buy drill bits. it's a primal thing.

similarly, if sex becomes an obligation-- what's the point?

You want your partner to want you. THAT is the point. Right?

So working out some deal whereby he refrains from touching you in a certain way for a certain period of time is not going to do it.

Now, I am not saying don't communicate.

But there is a point where the issue has been communicated and there still is no change. If this is where you are at, then "communication" may very well cross the line into "negotiation" and there is no real benefit in the sexy realm.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I have already started doing a lot of that. He'll start rubbing my legs and butt in the morning or at night, if he tries to go to my vagina too quickly I'll just get up and leave. I've refused all but 2 times of any sexual activity that wouldn't involve my pleasure.
> This is usually when we'll get into the conversation of how I need to lower my expectations until sex becomes more natural and how doing it more will make him want it more and do more for me.
> 
> ETA- I typically try to avoid talking about it anymore until something like this happens
> ...


"If you want to turn me on, start by doing X or Y."

If he does X or Y, great.

If he doesn't, get up and walk away.

Sooner or later he will do X and Y. Happily, if he wants you to be happy and he's lusting after you.

If he doesn't, well there you go.

Just don't be controlling. Offer to be open to X or Y, not that he must do it because you said so.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Yes therapy is expensive and inconvenient and uncomfortable. And divorce is...?


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Was he like this before you married him?

If he was more passionate about sex do you think you would cum faster?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> If he was more passionate about sex do you think you would cum faster?


Sex is syncronicitous reciprocity. So the answer for most women would be yes.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

BetrayedDad said:


> Was he like this before you married him?
> 
> If he was more passionate about sex do you think you would cum faster?


Sex wasn't important to me back then. I just did everything for him. I had always had horrible sexual experiences so my concern was pleasing him. 

Yes, if he was more passionate I would O faster and by myself I can in 5 minutes or less but then I don't think 20 minutes is all that bad honestly. Depends on how much time he has spent before going to my vagina. The more turned on I am the less time it takes, the more he time he spends on just my vagina it gets annoying and frustrating and is less likely to happen quickly. If it hasn't happened in about 20 I just give up. Lately is hasn't been happening because all I can think about is how he's only doing it because he wants me to be happy and not because he wants to do it. 

With therapy, if I thought it would help any I would go. I'll keep thinking about it. I just don't know what they will tell us that we don't already know. We watch a lot of videos, self help kind of stuff. We are doing a lot of the marriage builders stuff. 15+ hours a week together, meeting emotional needs, etc. All that is going fine. 

It's not even so much that he's refusing things. If I ask him to do XY, he will do XY but it's because I asked him to do XY and he will go through the motions but not the emotions. He says he loves watching me O, loves it when I am satisfied after, wants to make me happy, but I know that under all that he wishes it was easier, that he didn't have to do work for it every time, that he doesn't enjoy doing it for himself.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Well it sounds like the bad sex is a symptom of a bigger problem.

You WANT him to want to do these things, not just do them.

I'm sorry to tell you, you can't control people's thoughts only your own.

In simple analogous terms:

Say he doesn't like apple pie, he might eat the apple pie out of love but he will hate every bite.

So do you stay content with him eating the pie he hates or do you find someone who likes pie?

He is a selfish lover but he is who he is. I don't think your problem is fixable even with counseling......


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Sex wasn't important to me back then. I just did everything for him. I had always had horrible sexual experiences so my concern was pleasing him.
> 
> Yes, if he was more passionate I would O faster and by myself I can in 5 minutes or less but then I don't think 20 minutes is all that bad honestly. Depends on how much time he has spent before going to my vagina. The more turned on I am the less time it takes, the more he time he spends on just my vagina it gets annoying and frustrating and is less likely to happen quickly. If it hasn't happened in about 20 I just give up. *Lately is hasn't been happening because all I can think about is how he's only doing it because he wants me to be happy and not because he wants to do it.
> *
> ...


Not sure how realistic the part in bold is. For example, my wife and I have a little warm up thing we'll go to sometimes. It involves a little lube, a lot of upper arm strength and no penetration but lot's of clitoral rubbing. She likes it a lot, it is a little pleasant for me but after a while the upper arm thing overcomes the pleasant part. I do it as long as she wants because it is working for her. Wanting to do it just to do it does not apply...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SGC,

His T levels are average for a 70 year old man. 

Is he willing to try a testosterone supplement? 

And I believe you've made some very valid observations regarding the time and effort it takes to O. 

Let me frame them differently. Many folks like foreplay. M2 and I both like it and typically spend at least 15 minutes sometimes a half hour before we get to direct oral or hand stimulation. By that time we are both cranked and time to orgasm is 5-10 minutes. 

But the foreplay is fun not work. All of it's fun. If I worried M2 was watching the clock hoping to get it over with, that would kill the experience for me. 


Age-related testosterone decline in a Brazilian cohort of healthy military men




SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Sex wasn't important to me back then. I just did everything for him. I had always had horrible sexual experiences so my concern was pleasing him.
> 
> Yes, if he was more passionate I would O faster and by myself I can in 5 minutes or less but then I don't think 20 minutes is all that bad honestly. Depends on how much time he has spent before going to my vagina. The more turned on I am the less time it takes, the more he time he spends on just my vagina it gets annoying and frustrating and is less likely to happen quickly. If it hasn't happened in about 20 I just give up. Lately is hasn't been happening because all I can think about is how he's only doing it because he wants me to be happy and not because he wants to do it.
> 
> ...


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Sex wasn't important to me back then. I just did everything for him. I had always had horrible sexual experiences so my concern was pleasing him.
> 
> Yes, if he was more passionate I would O faster and by myself I can in 5 minutes or less but then I don't think 20 minutes is all that bad honestly. Depends on how much time he has spent before going to my vagina. The more turned on I am the less time it takes, the more he time he spends on just my vagina it gets annoying and frustrating and is less likely to happen quickly. If it hasn't happened in about 20 I just give up.* Lately is hasn't been happening because all I can think about is how he's only doing it because he wants me to be happy and not because he wants to do it.
> *
> ...


If he is doing "it" because he wants you to be happy, is that not a good thing? Maybe the happier he can make you the more he will spontaneously want to do it for both of you. Men can be fragile creatures, he wants to make you happy but you want him to want you, is he not showing you in his own way that yes he does want you?

What would happen if you took everything he had to offer even if it is not with the desire you are looking for?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

He can want to have sex, and want to please you, and try to improve. And still be inadequate and clueless. 

It sounds like he wants sex regularly despite a somewhat low T. Boosting his T may only make him want sex more often, but may even be counterproductive as that could make him even more selfish about wanting HIS orgasm without doing anything to help yours.

It also sounds like you've done almost everything in your power to do, and changed as best you can, but he has tried a little and given up when it doesn't provide immediate results. And he's telling you it's your problem, not his - when it seems to me that it IS his inability to change in ways you need to make this work for you, or to really care about what you need.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Thank you for that chart. He would be ok with taking T if we could find a Dr that is willing even though his numbers are, what they call, normal. Our network of Drs has seemed to go the don't medicate anything unless you absolutely have to route. I'm having issues with that for myself. I was looking into some things he could do naturally, vitamins and whatnot. He already has muscle and isn't at all overweight. 


and yes, if he used half his time with other ways to get me turned on he would need to spend a lot less rubbing me, which I really don't enjoy anyway. The last time I Oed was better, the whole thing took about 10 minutes because he spent time in other places first. But it was like he was doing it off a list. Neck, back, stomach, legs, and I had to keep moving my body and/or his hand to keep it from going to my vagina too soon. 
So we talk about how much better that was and was going in the right direction if we can make it a little more natural and the next morning he starts rubbing my legs and butt and then right to the vagina again so I just got up and left. 

With letting him do it just to make me happy- I just can't get into it. Little things go through my head over and over again. Like when he said "When I get my hand into a comfortable position, I really don't mind doing it even if it takes a while" Thanks. I've always wanted someone who "doesn't mind" touching me. When I touch him I tell him often how absolutely perfect his c*ck is. All my favorite parts of it, how I want to make a mold of it to keep because it looks so good, or how much it turns me on just to see it and have it in my hand and how he really can't go grocery shopping today because he needs to keep that home with me . 
When I asked him one day about my vagina I got "Honey, it's fine. Don't worry about it" The last time he tried giving me oral he said "It actually wasn't that bad" once he got into a better position. 


So I add all that to knowing that he would prefer that I was a girl who didn't take any effort to get off, he would prefer if I could O with penetration only or would touch myself during sex, or only needed to O some of the time and could go without others, basically he would prefer to sleep with porn than me - and has admitted he feels most girls are different and "easier" - and I really just can't be relaxed and vulnerable enough to really enjoy and get into it. 

He likes when I O and after I have Oed. He does enjoy continuing to touch me while and after an O until I either can't take it anymore or roll into another one. 
He doesn't like the part of actually getting there. He "doesn't mind" or "isn't that bad" and will do it to make me happy.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

SGC-- what you're describing to me sounds like it goes way beyond what he is doing or not doing mechanically.

There is a mental disconnect that is basically eroding your overall attraction level.

If you were with another guy who you believed really "got" you, he could probably do the exact same things your husband is doing mechanically and it would turn you on.

To me, focusing on the mechanical aspect when this is looming in the background is just going to be an exercise in frustration for both of you.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Oh, the joys of being married to a man who likes sex, but doesn't really like vaginas.. I feel your pain. *hugs*


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I am very much overall attracted to him. It would be a lot easier if I wasn't, I wouldn't want it/him so bad. I'll tell myself, no more initiating, no more thinking about sex and out he comes from the room in those tighter pair of boxers he has with his perfect chest and I want him. Or he'll spend the whole night with his hand on my ass and I wake up wanting him. I fantasize about him.

It's just when we get to it it's bland and sad. 

But I have to say he is home for the day and just did some fantastic initiating and really good sex. He was actually using phrases like "I love your p*ssy so much, don't move I just want to be inside you" while kissing and touching me. When I reacted positively he got more comfortable and tried other stuff which also worked and he didn't try to just touch my vagina, didn't at all actually I just grinded on him until I was almost there and then used a toy the rest of the way.

He tells me these things are always in his head but he can't get them out and feels stupid trying. 
To be fair, the last time he tried to talk dirty to me he said "Baby, I want you so hungry for my c*ck that you need a doggy bag" 
and then "I don't know why I just said that, that's not what I was trying to say" and then rambling... and trying to explain what he meant.....

In the back of my mind I know he's still doing that stuff for me but he didn't act like it at the time which is much, much better. If he can keep up doing it "to make me happy" in this kind of way (the one today, not the doggy bag) it is workable but yes, I really wish he loved vaginas and foreplay in general as much as he loved sex. I think a lot of that comes from porn use.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Some have said that the testosterone might make him more selfish and not necessarily "want" and or desire, etc.

I disagree. One of the reasons I started Androjel was because I was no longer "in to it". It pissed me off to no end that I was losing my "lust." I not only think the testosterone makes you want it more, but it also increases desire and passion. The Viagra just helps with "mechanicals." When the tool works well, you don't have to worry about anything. You just enjoy.

Remember, A guy could have a high testosterone number but had a MUCH higher number when he was younger and now complains about low libido. On the other hand, a guy could have a low number all his life, but still statistically low average. He really does not get into sex and never has. The doctor thinks all is fine, the husband thinks all is fine, but the wife knows better.

I think if Mr. slowlygowingcrazy goes into the doctors office and simply complains about low libido and WANTS something to try to make his sex life better with his wife, the DR. will comply. These meds are for quality of life. Sex with ones spouse certainly fits into this category.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Any progress we could have made was short lived. Found out he was watching porn again the last couple days. It gets him too accustomed and used to one sided, selfish sex. His desire to truly please a woman will never happen as long as he is getting pleasure from the opposite.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

If my husband said to me, I don't mind you vag... I'd never have sex with him again. Seriously, I would not. What a fvcking idiot!
How do I look? 
I don't mind it.... Seriously?

I don't think low T has anything to do with this. It would just make his need to get off stronger. UMP, I disagree because you were motivated and driven to your goal of having a stronger drive. Mr. SGC has a strong drive, but he is a self centered and inconsiderate lover. Two separate things I think.

I don't think SGC, or any woman for that matter, would be content and happy with the love making capability and skill of Mr SGC. Anon1111 I disagree that her attraction to her H has anything to do with this.

SGC, you've said that you give him passionate talk. You've given examples of the kinds of things you say to him and his tepid, inconsiderate response. 

Would you say your husband has an entitlement attitude? You've talked about how your super attracted to him, is your attraction something that is normal for him? Has he always had women attracted to him?

When I was dealing with my H and his inability to articulate anything at all remotely affirming he continually said ".I don't know what you want me to say?" And I'd tell him to simply say what he thinks and feels. And the therapist said that he hadn't developed the connection between what he feels and the name for it. Of course he knew the words, he just couldn't connect them with what he felt. 

There were times I'd just blow up at him. "You can't say it because you don't think it and you don't think it because you don't feel it."

I used our kids as examples. 
Look at your daughter. <---Factual. 
Isn't she *beautiful*? <---Feeling. 
See how her dimples get deeper when she smiles? <--- Factual. 
Isn't that *adorable*? <----Feeling

I don't mind touching your vag. <<< WTH is that?
Giving you oral is fine once I get in a comfortable position. <<<WTF?

Can you imagine teaching a 55 year old man how to pair thoughts with feelings?


What your husband has going on is a deficit in development. He doesn't know how to pair words with feelings in the moment. His main thoughts are on himself, like my husband's were. He is thinking "I feel good, I like to feel good, this is really good for me. I'm really enjoying this." Which is why your H is so drawn to porn. With porn it's completely one sided so self centered thoughts and can flourish.

Maybe he should be assigned the task of dialogue writer for porn? What are they saying to each other? What does he say, what does she say...making noises isn't saying.

I'm afraid this isn't something you two can work out together. My H finally found a therapist he felt he could work with and he attended for several months. It has made a huge difference. BUT...he was motivated this time. Because without serious improvement in his emotional constipation, this marriage was over. I fear you will have to do the same thing to light that fire. And make a time limit for yourself to see significant improvement.




SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Any progress we could have made was short lived. Found out he was watching porn again the last couple days. It gets him too accustomed and used to one sided, selfish sex. His desire to truly please a woman will never happen as long as he is getting pleasure from the opposite.


Im so sorry, this must feel devastating. {{{hugs}}}


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

He has always found he had enough women attracted to him that he never had to do any work to get or chase one. That is a big part of the problem. 

The porn he watches is just women by themselves, he doesn't like watching other men f*ck a woman and isn't even into lesbian porn. So he watches women alone with toys. At least he prefers homemade/amateur stuff with women that have my body type, big butt and thighs, etc. There's no obviously fake boobs, thin, thigh gaps, etc. I'm not talking BBW porn (I am not BBW), just normal-er looking women. 
But it's like you say with the self-centeredness of it, work free, easy, no intimacy, no woman to please. He gets used to that and then I am the opposite. 
He'll watch it when he gets up in the morning at like 4:30 because he has to leave for work early. I used to not care because I was asleep anyway but I was hoping that, I don't know... his brain would re-wire or something and he would eventually need sex. 

That's the thing too, he doesn't need sex as an emotional need to feel loved and all that. It feels good, he sees a connection with more sex and a happier marriage and he sees the connection between satisfied, happier me and everything else being better because of it but if there was no difference, if I didn't care, he would be content with having quick and easy sex just to get off. 
His ENs are words of affirmation and time together. He understands that sex means his emotional needs are naturally met as well.


To his credit he did come to apologize with some dirty talk, foreplay and even sporadically went down on me to finish (first time ever, it's usually a planned event)
He was talking a lot of lighter BDSM stuff where I simply submit to him and he gets to call all the shots and just do with me what he wanted, make me walk around in a short skirt so he can just take me whenever he wants, etc. I'm not sure if he thinks that's what I would want or if it's something he is interested in. I'd be game to try if he it is something he would be excited for and want to put some effort into but I can see it turning into just another way for him to be get off selfishly. 

I've decided to not make a choice about divorce until after these holidays have passed so I'll see how things go the next couple months and evaluate then.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

You turn it into a job for him. Instead of expecting him to want what you want him to want, learn how to like what he gives you. As hard as it sounds, it's much more realistic than your expectations. 

There is nothing wrong with taking care of yourself once in a while. 

Divorce and the next guy may do and want all the right things. Only he'd want them with every other woman, too. Or he will make zero money. Or he'd have an addiction... No one is perfect. Keep searching for the one who is, and you are guaranteed to grow old with a bunch of cats. 

Best of luck!


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

rubymoon said:


> You turn it into a job for him. Instead of expecting him to want what you want him to want, learn how to like what he gives you. As hard as it sounds, it's much more realistic than your expectations.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with taking care of yourself once in a while.
> 
> ...


I have had issues with too high expectations so I'll try to keep that in mind. Right now I'm just not sure that I'm asking too much. It's not like I want him to enjoy getting pegged or watching me do gangbangs. Wanting and enjoying pleasing a woman, foreplay, etc seems like it should be just a normal request. At least to me. 
But I do like cats... some days that doesn't seem like that bad of an option :laugh:

and it does feel like work compared to his porn and our past sex life which was all about easy, one-sided sex, BJs, me on top.

I do and can take care of myself. At the start of all this I had stopped that completely, it was horrible. Now when it gets bad enough I'll do it to take the edge off or so I can sleep. I have also upped my anti-depressants again which helps a bit to lower my drive too. 
I make sure that the option of him is off the table before I do. But it still leaves me empty, sad, wanting. When all I want is him to want and enjoy me, touch me, foreplay. Those things I can't do on my own and that's the part I care about.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I really hope you will give divorce lots of heavy consideration. I have always thought you deserved a much kinder and more considerate man than what you seem to have now.

You are a high quality woman, SGC. You deserve the best.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> our past sex life which was all about easy, one-sided sex, BJs, me on top.
> .


In this case, I take some of what I said back. 

I guess you were trying to please him too much and neglected your own desires and needs. He got used to it and now you want to become a factor in your sexual relationship. What can I say?.. You've spoiled him. Not sure how to fix though... All is simple in theory but clear as mud in practice. 

One thought though: I would never get on top or go down unless I am seriously aroused. And it's not because I am such a Grinch, but it just would not cross my mind, like it won't occur to me to go to McDonalds unless I am really hungry. Maybe, you could adopt this philosophy  

Last but not least, be careful with the idea of a divorce. I wish we all got the best as we deserve, but the reality is pretty brutal. If your relationship is good otherwise, and if he is a good husband to you otherwise, then this is not really a problem. It's just something that needs tweaking  And this is not to dismiss your issue, but to put in perspective of what type of challenges are out there in the wilderness of single life and dating.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SGC,

Your expectations are fine. Your only mistake was pairing up with someone who - has some severe selfishness issues. 




SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I have had issues with too high expectations so I'll try to keep that in mind. Right now I'm just not sure that I'm asking too much. It's not like I want him to enjoy getting pegged or watching me do gangbangs. Wanting and enjoying pleasing a woman, foreplay, etc seems like it should be just a normal request. At least to me.
> But I do like cats... some days that doesn't seem like that bad of an option :laugh:
> 
> and it does feel like work compared to his porn and our past sex life which was all about easy, one-sided sex, BJs, me on top.
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

rubymoon said:


> In this case, I take some of what I said back.
> 
> I guess you were trying to please him too much and neglected your own desires and needs. He got used to it and now you want to become a factor in your sexual relationship. What can I say?.. You've spoiled him. Not sure how to fix though... All is simple in theory but clear as mud in practice.
> 
> ...


Ruby, do you know the history here? He has treated her very unkindly. SGC has bent over backwards for him. 

SGC, I would never want for my daughter what you have put up with. 

You can have a good life without him. You are young, only 30! You are a wonderful woman in every way. You truly _do_ deserve the best.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

jld said:


> Ruby, do you know the history here? He has treated her very unkindly. SGC has bent over backwards for him.
> 
> SGC, I would never want for my daughter what you have put up with.
> 
> You can have a good life without him. You are young, only 30! You are a wonderful woman in every way. You truly _do_ deserve the best.


I don't know the history, but I do know single life and dating. If she was guaranteed to get the best after the divorce, I'd say Go for it. But she is not. In fact, she may get something even worse. Not because she deserves it, but because this is what's available out there. Sadly.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

rubymoon said:


> I don't know the history, but I do know single life and dating. If she was guaranteed to get the best after the divorce, I'd say Go for it. But she is not. In fact, she may get something even worse. Not because she deserves it, but because this is what's available out there. Sadly.


SGC I will give you the flip side of this, my reality and experience shows that many if not most of the people I know have gone on to have much happier, fulfilling relationships post divorce.
One thing being in a relationship like yours does is to teach you what you will and won't accept in a partner. Sure some people go through the same old pattern in the next relationship or cannot find a quality person but IMHO that is because they did not take responsibility for their own part in the downfall of their marriage.

You are an intelligent woman, you have analysed and understand what the problems are in your current marriage this insight will take you far and if you do decide to call it quits then there is no reason that you cannot expect to find a man that is a better match with you.

Towards the end of my marriage I asked my then husband to buy me a gift one day out of the blue, it was not a planned question but afterwards I realised why I had asked it.
He came home with a pair of earring that I would never have worn, they were the complete opposite of the type of woman I am. I had not even worn earrings for a decade or so and even if I did the style was nothing I would ever wear.
It dawned on me that day that he wanted to make me happy because then his life would keep ticking over the way it was but he did not know me, care enough to know me and simply tried to placate me to keep the status quo. I hope that makes sense, just trying to say that this is not about sex, it is about something so much deeper and more important, a real connection and desire.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

rubymoon said:


> I don't know the history, but I do know single life and dating. If she was guaranteed to get the best after the divorce, I'd say Go for it. But she is not. In fact, she may get something even worse. Not because she deserves it, but because this is what's available out there. Sadly.


The main issue for SGC, imo, is learning to expect more from a man. She must not settle for less than a man who treats her extremely well. Otherwise she is better off single.

Ruby, you are disappointed in what you have seen out there? That might make for an interesting thread.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

jld said:


> Ruby, you are disappointed in what you have seen out there? That might make for an interesting thread.


Not really disappointed and not that people are bad, but I found it very hard to find someone who I could mutually fall in love and be best friends with. And I mean very hard! I am now happily married after being single for 12 years. And it was great experience, a lot of fun... And it taught me well to hold on to my The One veeeeery tight! So, since I don't know their history, I would say that if that was my problem, I'd choose to work on it with H.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Holland said:


> SGC I will give you the flip side of this, my reality and experience shows that many if not most of the people I know have gone on to have much happier, fulfilling relationships post divorce.
> One thing being in a relationship like yours does is to teach you what you will and won't accept in a partner. Sure some people go through the same old pattern in the next relationship or cannot find a quality person but IMHO that is because they did not take responsibility for their own part in the downfall of their marriage.
> 
> You are an intelligent woman, you have analysed and understand what the problems are in your current marriage this insight will take you far and if you do decide to call it quits then there is no reason that you cannot expect to find a man that is a better match with you.
> ...



Totally agree with everything but most especially the bolded part.

My husband's gifts are either something I already have (clothing) or something I would never wear. Unless I give him specific instructions which makes the gift feel more like he went to the grocery store than actually thought about me. 

Gifts are something a man can be a hero or a dud. A hero signifies effort to know you, to know what you want, what you need, what you like. A dud signifies a lack of effort to know you, to look beyond himself and really notice you. A hero is thoughtful in many ways. A dud is clueless in most ways and too lazy to alter it, or too careless to try.

This kind of man won't change unless not changing is more painful than the comfort of staying the same. Sometimes they stick with comfort, like FW's ex. Sometimes they decide to change, like my H did. 

Either way...you have to bring the pain to their door.


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## sungazer (Nov 3, 2015)

This is rubymoon.

I guess my opinion will be the unpopular one once again. 

My H never knows what to give me. If I leave it up to him, he will give me some super cool and probably quite expensive and sophisticated gadget, that I may end up using, but I won't go "Wow" over it. I always tell my H what I want to be given to me as a gift. He invests zero brain power into my presents - he just pays. 

And this is sooooooo insignificant to me because he knows so much more important things about me. He knows when I am in pain, when I need help, when I am sad, when I am PMS-ing and become less than adequate. He forgives when I snap because I am too tired. He supports me when he sees that I need it (even when it doesn't make much sense to him). He takes care of me when I am sick and when I am sad. He raises my kids as his own. He respects my parents and my family. He shares his everything with me (material and not).

I don't know... I just think there are much more important things in life than knowing my tastes in jewelry and purses.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

:scratchhead:Gifts are such a frikkin landmine.


I do a pretty fine job of picking gifts I think judging from reactions over the years. BUT, there is no guessing or "knowing" what will get that spectacular reaction. None. I have hardly any dud's that weren't intentional, I admit it, there has been a time or two I've put no effort at all into selection - for good cause <g>. But the times she has absolutely swooned over something is just a mystery as to why...


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Maybe I was being too subtle, the point was not about gifts per se, it was about being in a passionless marriage where a partner does what he thinks will keep the other happy in order to keep the status quo.

I am actually not a gifts person, the reason I asked him for a gift is because I was drowning living with a man that did not know me, did not care enough to really know me, who I am. The asking for a gift was a subconscious thing but the result was that it showed that he really did not know me at all which was the breaking point for me, I was lonely in the marriage with a man that did not care enough to really be in tune with me inside and outside of the bedroom. 

The topic is not about gifts and SGC I wasn't trying to derail, I hope you get what I'm trying to say.


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

rubymoon said:


> ...If she was guaranteed to get the best after the divorce, I'd say Go for it. But she is not. In fact, she may get something even worse. Not because she deserves it, but because this is what's available out there. Sadly.


One way to look at it is that those who are ready, willing, and able to be in a good marriage.......are usually already in one.

But back to, "*he's only doing it because he wants me to be happy and not because he wants to do it"

*


Holland said:


> ...he wants to make you happy but you want him to want you, is he not showing you in his own way that yes he does want you?


No one else picked up on that? Sure seems harsh to me, not to at least try to see it that way.

Somewhere in the box of self-help, sex, dating, philosophy, Eastern religion, etc. books I have from before the Internet, there's one discussing a problem the author called, *"confusing longing with loving."
* 
The author explained that longing and loving can both be powerful (and falsely similar) feelings, and that many people who faced rejection (say from a parent) at an early age, had trouble settling into a secure comfortable loving relationship. They'd later in life seek the "longing" feeling they'd sadly learned to associate with that deficient loving early in life.

I think one example was of fathers, afraid of any real or even just perceived sexuality toward their daughters approaching puberty, withdraw their affection and then gave them the cold shoulder from that point on. Later in life, these women might reject or sabotage relationships that lack that familiar coldness.

Recently I've been reminded of this "loving vs longing" thing, because I keep reading of people who seem unhappy with their marriage, curiously out of proportion to the facts they've presented.

And although some people surely wise-up and have a better second marriage, I don't think the average statistics there are all that encouraging for second marriages.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

bestyet2be said:


> Originally Posted by Holland
> ...he wants to make you happy but you want him to want you, is he not showing you in his own way that yes he does want you?
> 
> No one else picked up on that? Sure seems harsh to me, not to at least try to see it that way.
> ...


Yes, I totally picked up on that and wanted to quote it. I haven't read SGCs other threads, but it seems as though the poor guy is trying his best and it's just not good enough. He's just not a sexual guy. If OP finds him attractive and they have children and a good marriage otherwise, it seems ridiculous to destroy everything over this issue. 

Others have suggested a sex therapist. That could be a good idea. However, it seems as though the H is under a lot of pressure to perform well. Not a good dynamic. Also walking away when he starts touching (albeit awkwardly and not to the OP's desire) is certainly not going to help the situation.

Again, I haven't read the other threads about the marriage, so I could be way off base here.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Honestly, both "sides" are fair and it is what keeps me going back and forth and so confused.
Most of the big stuff is Ok and there is also a bunch of my personal needs and dealbreakers that are met. 

We have fun, we go out, we watch shows and in general get along. 

We both don't like going out too much or big crowds or having guests over. - This is important to me as a shy introvert. I don't want to be pushed to go out and I certainly don't want someone who will invite all his friends over. 

He's learning to make chores more equal, spend his money wiser. He's a good Dad. - Chores, money, general equality of work at home has been an issue in the past. I've seen real improvement there 

I have no inlaw issues and can be totally selfish with my family and holidays. - Another personal want. I don't want to have to worry about who's year it is to go to their Mother's house for Christmas. He never really grew up with holidays being important and I really did so I get all the control here. I can compromise on a lot of things, this is one place I'm happy I don't have to.
Also in general everyone gets along in all the extended family.

He prefers and likes my body type- again, an important but personal need for me. Let's face it, while many guys wouldn't mind being with a size 10-12 they would prefer smaller. H is not attracted to slim/slender. He likes big thighs, big butt which I have plenty of. I have no pressure to get any smaller (or bigger) and can easily maintain where I am and just live normally. 

As for gifts, he used to not get me anything but after years of explaining the importance he now gets me perfect things, and they are things that some other wives would hate- like a can opener and a strainer- but the fact that he sees me struggle with ours all the time but not buy another one because "well this one still "works" and I hate to waste money. Or new shoes when mine have holes in them and I'm still walking in them in winter because I don't like spending money on myself. Or berries from the store which are so overpriced but I love them. I don't do jewelry or hangbags or nice clothes or flowers so these kinds of things are perfect and personal for me.

So there's a lot of good and there's a lot I would have a hard time finding again. There's also just the fact that my family would be together. 
There's also still struggles and a lot of them are just who he is as a person.

He grew up abused, neglected and in and out of different institutions. Showing love - or any emotion- is very hard and vulnerable for him. He basically grew up in prison mode where any weakness could, at best, be taken advantage of and at worst, kill you. He saw a lot of friends die, he only has a couple left who made it out. He had to learn to fight and be strong to protect himself and never let his guard down. It's been a battle for our entire marriage because I'd see him start giving a little and get scared and go back into selfish mode getting worse again.

He also constantly needs approval and recognition and is always worried about doing something wrong or failing or looking stupid. Sometimes when he's cooking he'll ask me 20 times if this is ok, if that looks alright and then literally stands there when it's done and watches me eat "is it good? Too spicy? Not enough? I'll put more in. Are you sure". Or "Should I make chili tomorrow" Me- stopping reading something "sure". him- "are you sure?" Me, still reading-"uh huh" "Well I can make something else then" Why? Because I didn't seem that excited about it. 
FTR- I have never once cared or complained about any food he makes. I still do most of the cooking so any time he wants to do it instead, I will gladly accept and happily eat. 

At the same time he has issues with being told what to do. I can ask him to do the dishes and he'll clean the shed and deck. In his head he thinks it's a good idea. He didn't get "told" what to do but still did something. I think part of it is that I'm a _woman _telling him what to do and he seems to think he should be above me in some way but that's all subconscious and he'd never talk or act like it directly. Although He did once compare himself to a boss, who's job it was to oversee things and make sure everything was going as planned. Like yard clean up day would be a lot of him going "DS- go and rake up that area, DD- pick up all your toys here, wife- get all the stuff out from under the deck" 
Um... no. Get on your boots and get out here with the rest of us. No one promoted you. 
In general if he asks me to do something, I do it. I'm not looking to be a boss either, just equals who can both ask the other to do things.

These parts of him contradict, they clash, they make things very difficult. 
If, for example, I ask that he does the dishes and he cleans the deck and shed he wants approval for it but it wasn't what I needed or asked for so he feels vulnerable but doesn't get the response he was looking for so he shuts down and stops doing anything and makes things worse. 

It's the same thing with sex.
I only leave or stop if he starts touching my vagina right away. I'm tired of redirecting him only to have him go right back there after a second. It's not fun or sexy and I've asked him not to.


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## Tango in Triple Time (Jul 14, 2015)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I'm on the fence. Some days I think divorce is the only option, other days I don't know if it's worth it to break up a family, home, and lose someone I am comfortable with to take my chances at better _quality _of sex, especially when the issues I have with him/sex are ones that seem to be pretty common.
> 
> Some of the main issues are:
> 
> ...


I thought I had it bad. My first marriage, the only thing good about it was the sex, and it was fan-freaking-tastic and we were married for 27 years. My ex was just hardwired to love sex, to love touching me, kissing me, licking me. He said my enjoyment was more important than his, that his came from pleasing me. Wow! Unfortunately, outside of sex he was a big jerk, no friends, half his family doesn't speak to him, yet I'm still invited to family events. 

Now I'm in a marriage where everything is wonderful, but the sex is lacking. I guess I should shut up and enjoy what I do have, your husband sounds, frankly, horrible.

How's the rest of your marriage? Are you in love with him?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Tango in Triple Time said:


> I thought I had it bad. My first marriage, the only thing good about it was the sex, and it was fan-freaking-tastic and we were married for 27 years. My ex was just hardwired to love sex, to love touching me, kissing me, licking me. He said my enjoyment was more important than his, that his came from pleasing me. Wow! Unfortunately, outside of sex he was a big jerk, no friends, half his family doesn't speak to him, yet I'm still invited to family events.
> 
> Now I'm in a marriage where everything is wonderful, but the sex is lacking. I guess I should shut up and enjoy what I do have, your husband sounds, frankly, horrible.
> 
> How's the rest of your marriage? Are you in love with him?


I am, very much. And everything else is good enough that I could live with. That sounds a little harsh but take sex out of it and the pros outweigh the cons and when you're talking about breaking apart a family and losing everything we have worked so hard to get to, visitations and custody crap, splitting holidays and dealing with step-parents, I can settle for things being generally good and the pros outweighing the cons.

When sex is added to the mix is where it starts to get a little more fuzzy so that's where my decision point is. 

We had sex again yesterday morning, rub my butt, rub my legs and off to my vagina. I should have gotten up and walked away but I just moved his hand and told him not to bother, there wouldn't be anything he could do to get me to enjoy it at that point anyway, and then had one-sided sex. Stupid of me and I'll have to learn to stand my ground better, even if it means cutting sex off completely which I am seriously considering.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

eh, since this we have only had sex once and it was because it was the weekend before my birthday and I practically had to beg. It was sad and he tried giving oral but I couldn't finish anyway so we just went to sex where he tried being more rough which he likes a lot better, when he says he doesn't have to be so "careful" with me. 

My birthday itself was great and he has become so giving and loving outside of this. Last night he promised sex this morning (Saturday mornings have become the only time he might be willing to try because it "takes so long" and "has to be some big event") 
But of course he didn't bother. He brought me a coffee and tried to be nice otherwise but unselfish sex is just too much work for him and I can't enjoy it when I have to ask for it. 

He's often turned on, has no problem telling me how much he wants this or that or grabbing at my butt and thighs, can't keep his hands off me. If he thought he could get away with having selfish sex; me touching myself during sex, spending only enough time on foreplay that I am wet before going right to sex, initiating by rubbing, groping or grabbing and then going right to my vagina, he would be doing it twice a day. Whatever desire he has is limited to that and I don't think that kind of thing ever really changes in a person .


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## CarlaRose (Jul 6, 2014)

I think you are making a very big mistake by:

1. Thinking divorce is an option.
a. You've heard the divorce rate is estimated to be somewhere around 50% - to 55%, but what you may not have heard is that the estimate for second marriages is upwards of 72%. You stated a third of what the reason is - step-parents. But the other third of the reason the divorce rate for subsequent marriages is so high is step children, and finally the husband's ex - his kids' mother. Believe me, you won't like it. Somewhere around 80% of them don't, particularly stepmothers. Stepfathers fair better for some reason because they're not automatically hated, but step mothers are downright disrespected, hated, and abused. MOST women say they are not only unhappy but actually miserable. They love their husband, so it's reasonable to expect their sex life is without complaint. I've been semi-studying step families for nearly years, and not once have I seen a complaint about a bad sex life, only complaints about their awful step kids, their husband's terrible parenting, and his hateful/controlling/intruding ex. No way I could tell you all the horror stories, but I do think you should educate yourself by reading the book "Stepmonster." No, I'm not talking about the movie. That book will give you a very clear picture of what to expect. You will slap the crap out of yourself for even thinking it, and you will see that a great sex life is hardly a fair trade and not anything worth giving another thought.

b. If you read the book, you will see the many ways the children interfere with the new relationships. Again, that is especially directed at the stepmothers, which means your husband's new partner/wife will catch a hell of a time. You may not care about that, but the point is your own children will turn into those same little brats, and very entitled brats because their father is not going to effectively parent them. He's just going to become their yes man and disney daddy. As a result, their stepmother will start out with the best intentions but will end up hating your kids because, again, they will make her miserable by making her life a living hell. As much as stepmothers deny it and declare to the rooftops that they make sure not to let the kids know they don't them, I don't believe that is true. It's just human nature to get back at someone who causes you misery. So, your children will be at risk of the same mental torture that they cause her.

c. Women and children, children especially and female children in particular, are at much higher risk for molestation, rape, and death by the mother's boyfriend/husband who is not the children's father. I won't bore you with any more statistics because I'm sure you get the message that you would not only be placing yourself at higher risk for abuse but placing your children at risk in 3 different categories. This is very real and not a scare tactic. The facts are the facts.

d. Nobody's relationship/marriage is perfect. I'm not saying you should be happy no matter how unhappy you are. I'm saying you should consider that the number of your complaints will not go down with the next guy. They may be different complaints, but the number of them will not be any fewer, and there will always be some things that get on your nerves. Generally, you have a pretty good guy in your husband.

2. Thinking therapy AND sex therapy cannot help you.
You know your body well enough, but you could know it even better. Your husband could learn techniques to pleasure you and not be so pensive and mechanical about it. To be perfectly honest, I'm wondering if you require a little more than most. Either that, or your husband has a lot of learning to do. Whichever one it is, imagine great, passionate sex that doesn't take you nearly as long to orgasm. 20 minutes is crazy to me. I think I would give up on myself if it took me that long. At the same time, it's possible my husband and most of my previous boyfriends were more skillful than your husband.

3. Thinking you have a magic wand.
There are lots and lots of wives who are pornography, video game, or sports widows. Usually, that happens by no input of their own. You, however, created this mess you are in. You didn't do it intentionally, but you did, nonetheless, do it. You allowed his selfish obsession and now it matters to you, so you want him to change. Okay, it's truly understandable. However, you have to give him a way to change. That he doesn't just because you want him to does not mean he is a lost cause that you should be thinking of divorcing. It means you should be willing to find and explore every means necessary for him to learn how to change and how to please you. He needs the tools that you don't know to provide.

4. Thinking there's no more to it than you know.
I think it's possible your husband has Adult ADD. Maybe read up on it to see if he fits the profile by meeting several of the criteria. It might only be a little, like just enough that he gets on your nerves but not necessarily so incredibly obvious.

Overall, I think you have a pretty good husband. I don't live your life, so I'm not trying to say I know better than you do. I'm just trying to let you know you won't necessarily find anyone better than, just someone who is better in the bedroom than him, but that you haven't explored all the options to fix the bedroom part. You really should try doing that in major effort to spare yourself and your children the subsequent problems that divorce will most surely produce.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Thank you Carla! I appreciate all of that and it is exactly the kind of stuff that keeps me realistic and level headed. I think a lot about what it would look like, especially this time of year, with step families and splitting visits for the holidays. It would be horrible and this sex problem is at least my own fault with my head getting the way. We tried some stuff yesterday afternoon, he's willing to try different things and he says he wants to, I just don't feel that he wants to so if I can just get past that part in my head it would be a lot better. 
Plus I am comfortable with H. I can be naked, I can make some horrible noise and we can laugh it off, he's seen my stretch marks and all the bits and pieces I would want to hide. Those kinds of things are their own battle that I'd be having to redo all over again if I had a new partner. 

It's funny, I had been mentioning ADD to him a few time lately. DS has it and I notice little things in H too. 

I'll think about therapy again, I know he's not too thrilled with the idea. He's said he would rather do something from home. We had watched a lot of the marriage builder stuff at home together so maybe I'll look for something like that.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It's funny, I had been mentioning ADD to him a few time lately. DS has it and I notice little things in H too.


Adult ADD is often found after a diagnosis in the children, mine certainly was, as years ago the inattentiveness was just seen as "not putting their minds to it".

I don't think that ADD necessarily makes someone a selfish lover though. 

It really depends on the person and the type of ADD. If they are hyperactive then they'll have trouble staying still at anything, if they are Inattentive then they will have trouble pushing all the other thoughts away and keeping their mind on what they are doing, no matter how much they want to do it.

If he is ADD then it will show up in many other aspects of everyday life.


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## CarlaRose (Jul 6, 2014)

You're very welcome. I could have presented sooooo many more reasons but didn't want to write an entire novel LOL. I would like to mention one thing that I neglected, which is that you would also be miserable. Just like you have children, the greater likelihood is you will meet guys who also have kids. As the stepmother, the normal statistical hatred and non-acceptance will be directed at you. Great sex life perhaps, but life in general would be awful. Like I said, there's no way I could tell you the horror stories, but I hope your the type of woman who listens and learns.

But, the MOST important thing is how he makes you feel. You mentioned a couple things he has said that makes you feel bad about yourself or unworthy. You are NOT supposed to tolerate that at all. If he doesn't value you or says unkind things, kick his butt to the curb in an instant.

Otherwise, liberate yourself by all means if you want to be free and single. But don't mistake being displeased with something as being worth throwing in the towel. You are unhappy with a very big and very important aspect of your life and marriage. It's so important that it casts a pall over everything even though you are not particularly displeased with everything. He makes you feel like there is no hope, but there really is.

Have you ever heard of Tantric Massage or Tantric Sex? Google tantric or tantra sex. And then find it in your area. If you live in the boonies, you may have to take a drive to get the classes, but it will be well worth it and exactly what you need. Or, find books on the subject. YouTube has videos on it too.

If you can't find that anywhere around, there's always sex therapy, which is also great. Get past your inhibitions, and you and your husband will have a lot to discover.

Or, how about him learning to master G-spot massage? Mind-blowing orgasms that will drive you crazy and won't take very long.

Have I piqued your interest yet to let you know there is really LOTS to learn?


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

SGC life post divorce does not automatically have to be the disaster that Carlarose has portrayed, it is just one side of the possibilities. I ended my passionless marriage and looking back would do it again without a doubt. Step parenting does have it's challenges but that is not a good enough reason to live the rest of your life in misery in a passionless marriage.
Step parenting has been a positive experience for me and I had great Step parents myself. It is not all doom and gloom.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

The issue is that aside from sex itself there is a lot of passion. Day to day stuff like when we do a project together to just cuddling and making out on the couch or he'll corner me in the kitchen to grab my head, kiss me and tell me I'm beautiful. Sometimes we'll just get out of the house and take a drive, talk, laugh and he'll have his hand on my inner thigh the whole time. We jump in the shower together and he'll hold me and kiss me and scrub my back. I'll lay on him to watch a show. Sometimes he sings to me, badly but it's cute. At least once a day at some point we are touching, kissing, or just cuddling. 

It's just sex itself and I'm a lot of the issue there because even now when he does things that I've asked I can't get into it because I don't think he wants to do them or I think he wants me to be quick or he doesn't like it. He'll tell me that's not the case and to just stop the wheels in my head from turning but I can't focus. He overthinks it all too making him mechanical and like he's going off a list. 
He knows how to get me to O and he'll make an attempt every single time now, he does oral more often. It's just that as soon as we're in bed and going to have sex, none of it is natural.

Carla- I'll look up some videos, I have shown him a few before and he'll do them but it makes him more running through a list-like and I get that "he's only doing this because you told him to" in my head and I can go from 95 down to 0 as soon as those thoughts start in my head. 

I'm more worried about my own kids with step-parent situations. I don't want to be raising them with someone else. There's no one else I can call at work to tell about some silly thing DD said, I sure don't want a step-Mother on his side of things either. Thinking about my H picking them up for a visit while I have a new man in the home taking his spot in the family makes me sick to my stomach and I don't want that at all. Thinking about him finding another woman makes me just as sick. 
And ya, I find a new man who is good in bed but has all the baggage of the ex-wife and the child visits and all that crap. Or a family that likes to get in the way. Or he doesn't like to watch the walking dead with me, or he's not the same political party as I am (and this is important to me as I have blocked and lost respect for many friends this election). Or he is ok with my size but would prefer if I was thinner vs. my H thinking my body is exactly right or he doesn't have the body type that I most enjoy like my H does. Or he can't giggle at me and think I'm cute when I bring him a crowbar when he asks for a tire iron, or worse he doesn't know what they are. Or I have to split Christmas with his family or have a whole new set of traditions to include in mine. And I can't stand the thought of my H alone on Christmas or alone in general. It's horrible. My family is his family. 

We have stories we can look back on and laugh about, about ourselves and the kids. 
I can be myself 100%. I never have to put on an act, I never feel pressure to look or behave in a way that's not me, I am comfortable naked and doing stupid things, screwing up. He's the one I can go to and be like "what the hell is this big red thing on my ass?!" 

If I leave I lose everything good and have no guarantee of ever finding it again, some things are irreplaceable anyway. I have a chance at finding better sex and maybe some different sets of pros. 
Some days I still feel so confused, others I lean one way or the other but again, it's me and my damn head overthinking stuff. 

A lot of that is my depression/anxiety too. I can be like this with everything. I'll be at the grocery store and I'll see 2 kinds of toilet paper. 1 I usually get and 1 on sale. I freeze. What if I don't like the sale one? What if I do and lost a chance to save money. I'll put one of the other in the cart and start to walk away and stop, go back, switch them, stop again. Stand there, think about it some more. 
Even after I made my choice and am home I'm still wondering if I made the right one. 
I just finished my Christmas shopping, I do it online. I have literally lost sleep, woken up in the middle of the night to go over everything I got and regret, worry, change my mind. Amazon must hate me. Heaven forbid I find that I lost out on a sale somewhere else, that'll run through my head until next Christmas. 

I upped my meds a few weeks ago, I was having a lot of physical symptoms and after pretty much every test known to man to rule anything else out we figure it's D/A related and I am feeling a bit better with the upped med, it takes a while before I do. Apparently I'm still on a low enough dose that we have a lot of room to keep going up as needed so I'll keep an open mind about that. I always hesitate to medicate myself more even though I know that when I am I feel so much better.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> The issue is that aside from sex itself there is a lot of passion. Day to day stuff like when we do a project together to just cuddling and making out on the couch or he'll corner me in the kitchen to grab my head, kiss me and tell me I'm beautiful. Sometimes we'll just get out of the house and take a drive, talk, laugh and he'll have his hand on my inner thigh the whole time. We jump in the shower together and he'll hold me and kiss me and scrub my back. I'll lay on him to watch a show. Sometimes he sings to me, badly but it's cute. At least once a day at some point we are touching, kissing, or just cuddling.


Aside from the sex, your relationship sounds very happy and near-perfect.

I honestly think you should schedule some sessions with a qualified sex therapist. You have tried the at-home approach, reading books, watching how-to videos, etc. to no avail. It has not fixed the problem so it's time to call in the professionals.

The advantage of having a therapist (as opposed to watching self-help videos) is now you have a neutral third party who is able to help you each see it from the other's perspective, as well as calling your husband out when he keeps heading straight for your vagina. And they will give you some tools to help you get out of your head so much and just...._be._ You need to learn to stop over-analyzing during sex, and a therapist can help you with this.

I really think this is fixable. Most people would love to have the kind of relationship you describe.

Videos and books are great up to a point. Then you have to bring in the big guns. :BoomSmilie_anim:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

It is hard to know, SGC. Things could be better with a different man, and things could be worse. It cannot be guaranteed either way.

Are you in IC right now?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Thank you, I have been looking into it. There's both a female and a male on in the closest city to us, both look pretty good and now that I can recognize my own fault in this mess, coming at H with a "I need help with this too" rather than sounding like I'm taking him to someone to teach him how to have sex (which is how it came across before and I think just insulted him) will be helpful. 
There are regular therapists in our town that say they deal with sexual issues along with a bunch of other stuff but that's not their main thing like the ones in the city. So we have options at least.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

It sounds like the more responsibility you are willing and able to take for the relationship, the smoother things go, SGC.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

No, I don't have an IC. My family Dr deals with my depression/anxiety and my meds. I have only seen one psychiatrist or physiologist... I don't know which is which.... at the beginning of all my mental issues. He diagnosed me with a whole list of crap (OCD, Major depression, generalized anxiety disorder, Paranoid personality disorder and likely PTSD) which scared me away from Drs for a long time until I opened up to my family Dr enough to get on meds for depression. 
She doesn't know all of my issues, she doesn't really know how to deal with it when I tell her some of them anyway, but she gives me my meds. 

I should probably see someone that deals more specifically with mental illness and/or other therapy. I just haven't.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think it would be helpful. I am surprised your doctor did not recommend it.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Oh and the reason I ended up at the phyc in the first place is that after a year of PPP (psychosis) I opened up to my baby check up nurse, I had written it all down so I would make myself say it, she made the appointment, physically brought me to him and stayed in the room with me until I told him everything I told her. 

I can see objectively that she was doing a really good job and really cared about me and my health and was helping but there's the other part that says "if you talk to people about the stuff in your head they will think you're crazy and send you to a shrink"
I have anxiety about Drs that makes me avoid telling Drs about my anxiety so I can get help for it. Horrible cycle of mental illness.



jld said:


> I think it would be helpful. I am surprised your doctor did not recommend it.


She has, I just don't. But I downplay my issues with her, enough to get my meds but I don't tell her everything.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> He diagnosed me with a whole list of crap (OCD, Major depression, generalized anxiety disorder, Paranoid personality disorder and likely PTSD)...
> 
> ...Horrible cycle of mental illness.


SGC, that's quite a list of diagnoses. Any one of those by itself could certainly skew how you are looking at the sexual issues in your marriage... but all FIVE of them combined could surely throw a monkey wrench into your perceptions of your sex life.

Even more reason to find a competent sex therapist for the two of you, and an IC for yourself.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

She really cared about you, SGC. Not surprising, as you are a lovely person. 

Please seek out IC. I think you could get a lot of support in general, plus clarity on what to do marriage-wise.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

CarlaRose said:


> Have you ever heard of Tantric Massage or Tantric Sex? Google tantric or tantra sex. And then find it in your area. If you live in the boonies, you may have to take a drive to get the classes, but it will be well worth it and exactly what you need. Or, find books on the subject. YouTube has videos on it too.
> 
> If you can't find that anywhere around, there's always sex therapy, which is also great. Get past your inhibitions, and you and your husband will have a lot to discover.
> 
> ...


I think you have painted a very negative view of what could happen if she leaves but there are plenty of others that doesn't happen to. Some people go out in cars and have a crash then go through the windshield but not everyone who gets in a car puts their face through a windshield.

In previous posts she has said that H just goes straight for the V despite being asked and told not to, she pushes him away then he goes straight back to it. In her initial post she said that he does no foreplay and gets bored of even trying to make her O I think the idea of tantric sex or him mastering a G spot massage may be a little optimistic for them right now to say the very least.

I'll admit that she has a lot going for her, and the mindset to make it work as well but he needs help. It sounds like they need to see a sex therapist for him to get over his issues and he may need individual help as well but if she's been getting up and walking away and he still hasn't got the message it's going to take way more than a YouTube video to sort him out.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

SGC, it's lovely to read about the great things going on in your marriage, aside from the sex issue.

You are doing a lot of the MB stuff, yes? I'd like to gently point out that you are committing disrespectful judgements when you listen to that mental tape that insists that your husband is doing things only because he "has" to.

DJs are very powerful love busters and they are difficult for a person to recognize when they are committing them. It causes negative feelings within you that in reality have more to do with your own internal dialogue than with him. 

I strongly recommend that you take his efforts at face value. He is a grown man, he doesn't "have" to do anything. If he is there, it's because he has chosen to be there. He has chosen to try to please you. He still has things to learn and old habits to break. I think there have been great suggestions on this thread. This is a solvable problem, and together you two can have some fun finding one or more resolutions. He is willing to make that journey with you, even if it doesn't go perfectly all the time and even if he stumbles a few times while breaking old habits. 

It sounds like overall things are going very well, and that you both are strongly investing in your marriage. It sounds like you're on the path to building a very strong marriage. If I recall correctly, it hasn't been all that long since your marriage was in a very precarious place; it takes time and practice to get all cylinders firing. I recommend that you give it more time before divorce is an option in your mind, at least while everything else is going so well.


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## CarlaRose (Jul 6, 2014)

Holland said:


> SGC life post divorce does not automatically have to be the disaster that Carlarose has portrayed, it is just one side of the possibilities. I ended my passionless marriage and looking back would do it again without a doubt. Step parenting does have it's challenges but that is not a good enough reason to live the rest of your life in misery in a passionless marriage.
> Step parenting has been a positive experience for me and I had great Step parents myself. It is not all doom and gloom.





WonkyNinja said:


> I think you have painted a very negative view of what could happen if she leaves but there are plenty of others that doesn't happen to. Some people go out in cars and have a crash then go through the windshield but not everyone who gets in a car puts their face through a windshield.


Why do people think it is AT ALL helpful to dispute something someone said just because THEIR experience was different? Since I said things like "most" and "many" and "80 percent" that you couldn't seem to understand doesn't mean the OP didn't understand that I obviously was not talking about every single solitary example of step family dynamics. I quoted some statistics and also recommended a book for her to read so she can see how usually goes, so I obviously wasn't sharing my own myopic views or opinions. So, what could possibly be the point of disputing my post with your own contrary and subjective opinion? 

You cannot possibly know how those step parents felt. You only know how YOU feel and shouldn't be trying to speak for others just for the sake of being seen. You couldn't dispute what I said with anything cogent to offer. You just had to be seen with an opposing opinion to minimize and discredit for no reason since I made it clear this is not the way it turns out all of the time, but most of the time, and generally 80 percent of the time, and that it doesn't work out and ends up in divorce upwards of 72 percent of the time. Why could you not assume that everyone but you understood that those determiners and numerical analysis didn't mean all?


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

CarlaRose said:


> Why do people think it is AT ALL helpful to dispute something someone said just because THEIR experience was different? Since I said things like "most" and "many" and "80 percent" that you couldn't seem to understand doesn't mean the OP didn't understand that I obviously was not talking about every single solitary example of step family dynamics. I quoted some statistics and also recommended a book for her to read so she can see how usually goes, so I obviously wasn't sharing my own myopic views or opinions. So, what could possibly be the point of disputing my post with your own contrary and subjective opinion?
> 
> You cannot possibly know how those step parents felt. You only know how YOU feel and shouldn't be trying to speak for others just for the sake of being seen. You couldn't dispute what I said with anything cogent to offer. You just had to be seen with an opposing opinion to minimize and discredit for no reason since I made it clear this is not the way it turns out all of the time, but most of the time, and generally 80 percent of the time, and that it doesn't work out and ends up in divorce upwards of 72 percent of the time. Why could you not assume that everyone but you understood that those determiners and numerical analysis didn't mean all?


Because your posts here and other threads come across as extremely anti "life after divorce" being something that can actually be a positive experience. You do not own the forum, your opinion is not the only one and anecdotal experience to the contrary to what your opinion is can help bring a more balanced discussion. Settle down, as I said, life after divorce is not all doom and gloom.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

CarlaRose said:


> I think you are making a very big mistake by:
> 
> 1. Thinking divorce is an option.
> [snip]
> ...





CarlaRose said:


> I would like to mention one thing that I neglected, which is that you would also be miserable. Just like you have children, the greater likelihood is you will meet guys who also have kids. *As the stepmother, the normal statistical hatred and non-acceptance will be directed at you.* Great sex life perhaps, *but life in general would be awful*. Like I said, there's no way I could tell you the horror stories, but I hope your the type of woman who listens and learns.





CarlaRose said:


> Why do people think it is AT ALL helpful to dispute something someone said just because THEIR experience was different? Since I said things like "most" and "many" and "80 percent" that you couldn't seem to understand doesn't mean the OP didn't understand that I obviously was not talking about every single solitary example of step family dynamics.





CarlaRose said:


> I quoted some statistics and also recommended a book for her to read so she can see how usually goes, so I obviously wasn't sharing my own myopic views or opinions. So, what could possibly be the point of disputing my post with your own contrary and subjective opinion?
> 
> You cannot possibly know how those step parents felt. You only know how YOU feel and shouldn't be trying to speak for others just for the sake of being seen. You couldn't dispute what I said with anything cogent to offer. You just had to be seen with an opposing opinion to minimize and discredit for no reason since I made it clear this is not the way it turns out all of the time, but most of the time, and generally 80 percent of the time, and that it doesn't work out and ends up in divorce upwards of 72 percent of the time. Why could you not assume that everyone but you understood that those determiners and numerical analysis didn't mean all?


And you also said that "Believe me, you won't like it", she *will* slap herself, her children *will* turn into those little monsters, the *normal* statistical hatred and other pretty definite predictions.

The reason we offered a counter position was because that is the whole idea of the advice forum, to get the opinions from a variety of people. 

I agree that some fathers seem to think that raising the kids is the mothers responsibility, but not all. Your post gave the impression that fathers have no idea what their kids are doing and leave it all up to stepmom. Prospective stepmoms can take some steps to help themselves while dating. Make sure that he has a good relationship with his children and is a good parent without any assistance needed. If not, or he always has a new reason why the kids don't want to be with him then tell him he needs to get his end of the deal in order before anyone is moving anywhere. Like everything else there are exceptions here, good fathers who through no fault of their own don't have custody or been alienated by their kids. I have a friend in that position and I cannot imagine what he goes through on a daily basis, it would tear me up.

However I do agree with you that she seems to have the attitude and a marriage that makes the effort to keep it together worthwhile, but he has to be onboard and make the same efforts. She can't do it alone.


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