# Going with your Gut?



## sandyf (Apr 14, 2009)

Hi All

I have posted a few times on the "Considering..." board, but then realized that now I really should be here. My story doesn't really matter (although if you'd like to take a look at my other posts you can get all the details) because right now I am just trying to get my head together. 

This is so hard. I have so many thoughts and feelings going on, but deep down, my gut says to end our marriage and move on. I feel that my husband, for many reasons, is the main cause of stress in my life. Right now I just want to be alone. I also feel that he may only want to fix things because he is scared. I have a hunch that once he accepted that we were over, he would move on to somebody new in no time. It would be fun and exciting for him again and I think he would be happy - or at least think he is happy. He has many issues that he really needs to work on to become truly happy, but I think that if we end it he will not continue with counseling.

I am severely co-dependent and I know that that has contributed a lot to our problems. I am quite sure that he was never "the right guy" in the first place, but I have never been able to just follow my gut and let him move on. I don't want to hurt him. After 25 years I now have this horrible guilt because I feel I have wasted his life by not being honest with him. And, because of my co-dependence I was never able to put my foot down about his substance abuse problems, etc. If I had, it would have been over ages ago. I guess I just always hoped that he would finally grown up and he would _become_ the right guy. There are many things about him that I like. But, the immaturity and selfishness just make it impossible for me to be head over heals with him. Our counselor is amazed by how immature he is.

My dad and stepmom came to visit this past weekend and we talked a lot. My dad makes a lot of sense (he was a divorce lawyer for a while). He says that, since my plan is currently to stay separated, I should just move forward with that plan. I should find a smaller place to rent and rent our house out. He says that since my husband is so hung up on coming back home - if I am not here either, he may be able to let go of that feeling. He says we should go ahead and to a settlement agreement and just go about our own lives. If we decide to "date" and things work out, the house is always here and we have not finalized a divorce, so it leaves a door open for us to get back together. It makes a lot of sense to me. I am afraid though, that my husband will see it as me moving another step closer to divorce and - again, my co-dependence kicks in, and I worry that he will either not handle it well, or he will throw in the towel. I guess this is where I just have to "Let go and let God", right?

This is the hardest thing I have ever had to do. Some days I sleep, some days I don't Some days I eat, some days I don't feel like it. Some days I feel so happy and relieved - some days I feel so torn. Hearing my husband so distressed, begging me - it is so hard. But, I have been the one begging for years for him to quit drinking. I just can't do it his way anymore. Now I guess I just have to wait and see if he really wants to change. If he can see the things that are wrong. But, I fear some of it is just who he is, you know? I mean, at 43 years old... how do you not be immature and selfish any more? It will require a ton of soul-searching on his part and a tremendous desire to change and be a better person. Honestly - I don't think he has that in him. I think he would be a lot happier to stay the way he is and find somebody that thinks he is cute and funny and pump his ego for him. One time he even said that he just wanted somebody to love him - he didn't even care if it was me. He later said he just said that to hurt me. Well, buddy, guess what? It worked! You can't take something like that back.

Sigh... Okay, it feels good to have that off my chest!

How do you know when to follow your gut? What if your gut is wrong? I guess I need to just follow my dad's advice and see where things go.

Thanks for reading!

Sandy


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## Waiting Patiently (Aug 31, 2009)

Sandy,

I feel your pain and your plea for answers. i pray you find the answer you need and are able to move forward.

I want to add some comments, some of which you may not want to hear.

You are predicting the outcome with your husband. people make miraculous changes every day. If you left him, I can assure you there is no bigger and more straightforward incentive for him to change. Perhaps keeping an open mind and watching his actions is a good approach. remember, if you say he will fail- he will- and you will never see any of the changes he makes. The question as I see it is- if your husband were to make the changes you need him to make, would you want to work on your marriage? if the answer is yes, fight for your marriage and give it your all. if the answer is no, forget pitying your husband, tell him you want a divorce and let him go. The pain you are causing him will only be magnified by not being honest with him. It's not fair to have your cake and want your ice cream too. I am sorry but life requires decisions and it is not fair to keep someone in limbo. and, in case you were wondering, yes, my wife left me in the middle of the night 4 months ago and is staying at her mothers 5 minutes away- tells me she loves me, comes by house every day, gets jealous every time I go out anywhere with anyone, and despite this-will not go to counseling, tell me why she left and refuses to work on the marriage. complete limbo and it is devastating to me and our daughter! Thus, perhaps I am biased from my perspective, I can tell you that if you don't want to hurt your husband anymore, I would make a decison to work on the marriage or not and move forward- not fiorgetting to tell him the same. Good luck!


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## sandyf (Apr 14, 2009)

Waiting,

Thank you for your reply. You are right, I should not assume my husband can't make the changes.

I have made up my mind about being separated and working on the marriage. My husband moved to his mother's about a month ago. We have been going to counseling separately since then. We have talked on the phone some, but have not seen each other since our last joint counseling session. That session did not go well and nearly all phone conversations have not gone well.

My husband keeps going back and forth between being willing to give me the time I need, and telling me he feels like he is going to die if he can't come home and he just wants to end the marriage and move on.

I sent him a letter last week and reiterated that I have made up my mind and that he needs to do the same. I reminded him that filing for divorce is not going to instantly end his pain. We have a ton of paperwork to do, we have to agree on a lot of things, sort out finances, etc., he has to physically move his things out of the house and then it takes six months for the divorce to become final.

I have not talked to him for a week. I wanted to wait until after I was able to see the counselor. My husband has been twice since I have been last, because I went out of town for a few days and was not able to get in last week.

Phone conversations have not gone well because he keeps pushing me to let him move back in. For two days last week and said that he just wanted a divorce and then ended the last conversation with "what do you want me to do?" I told him that he had spent the last two days saying he wanted a divorce and I told him I understood. Then he flips back the other way again. I told him he needs to make up his mind and sent the letter to reconfirm what I had said. He has told me what he wants (to move back in and work on things at home). I have told him that I cannot do that. I have told him what I want (to remain separated, go to counseling and see if we can work things out). He has gone back and forth for a month now about whether or not he can do that.

Talking to him right now is unproductive. In another post somebody said something about one person pushing and the other is pulling. When he pushes I feel like - this is one of the things I am tired of. That he manipulates me to do things his way. When he has done something wrong, he always turns it around to be may fault, etc. I don't even think he does these things consciously. But, the more he pushes to come back home, the less positive I feel that we can work things out and I just want to cut off contact with him.

Being completely honest about how I have felt all of these years, and that maybe I didn't pick the right guy in the first place is another matter. I just don't know if I can come clean about that. I am not sure it serves a purpose. I do love him, if he could make some changes I could be happy to be with him for the rest of my life. The flip side of that one is - I need to make changes as well. I am not even sure he will like the me that is not co-dependent. 

Again, I guess that is why we just need time. I just wish so much I could get him to really see that. If he could get around this urgent need to fix things right now. I think he his afraid that, if he gives me time, I will walk away, find that I am happier without him, and that will be that. I am sure that he feels that if he moves back in, that will put something of a lock on us staying together. And, he is probably right. But, I want to be happy. And, I want him to be happy. I simply can't keep doing things the way we have been for 25 years.

As with most couples, there are so many details that are being left out in these posts. Sometimes my mother implies that I am expecting too much. But, I don't think I am. There are tons of little things that I am willing to live with. Nobody is perfect, including me by a long shot. I don't expect my husband to be perfect. But, there are some things that have gone on our entire marriage (trust issues, temper, double standards, etc) that I am no longer willing to live with.

I am sorry for your situation. My husband is quite aware of the problems we have. Well, rather, I have told him - I don't know that he sees those things still. I don't think he even understands what co-dependence means and how I need to change that and what that might do to the woman he loves. That I will be a different person and he may not like it.

I hope you are able to find out what is bothering your wife so you can start trying to figure out where your life is going. That would be hard to not even know what is wrong - I can imagine how helpless you feel.

Sandy


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Sandy you are so thoughtful and articulate. It does sound the talks with H are unproductive at the moment. But I was struck by the fact that you are still aren't being 'honest' with your H about who you are etc. The "is he the right one" stuff is a complete red herring I think..he is who he is and you are who you..can you make a relationship work?..well it will take two - lots of effort and a bit more on the same page than you are now...
you will need to explain to him that making the realtionship work isn't about pleading or crying or giving in to these overwhelming emotions - you are correct in my opinion to steer clear of him at these times - he needs to learn to meet you in a clear and articulate place 

if you don't want to do this - this is fine - your choice - don't feel bad - that's a waste of energy -

just be clear that your decision is what you want....

sorry I know this post may not have helped -


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## dancininthestorm (Sep 30, 2009)

Wow Sandy!!

Reading your post blows my mind because I am very much in the shoes of your husband. The things you mention are exactly what my wife says and seems to feel, and I have been doing all the things you say your husband is doing. First, I don't believe him at all when he acts as though the divorce will allow him to walk away freely. It's certainly a control issue because it is for me. It's a way of putting you on a timetable. It forces you to make a hasty decision. I can't speak to the exact feelings he's having, but I was so afraid that my wife would be happier w/o me, and she had many of the same concerns you do. She told me numerous times that she wanted me to make some changes, but I didn't listen. I can tell you from my experience that I don't think the changes she wanted would've occurred if she just come back. A honeymoon period sure, but the real changes have to be for himself, and not for you, or they are not sincere changes. It has to be frustrating for you because it seems you would rather continue your marriage, but he just doesn't understand, or won't. I cannot tell you how similar your situation seems to mine, except with the roles reversed. I can only say give him some time, and hopefully he will see what he is doing, or the changes may not occur until it's too late.


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## sandyf (Apr 14, 2009)

knortoh - Thanks for your support. I am clear about what I want and firm with him about my decisions. It is hard, but I am sticking to my decision.

Dancin -

All I want is time, but he is not willing to give it to me. It is just so stupid. I love him and he loves me, but he says he can't wait and he wants a divorce. 

Yesterday was rough - Hubby called me as I was just about to leave work. He said he wanted to talk or meet somewhere. I had sent him a text a day or two before saying that I had a meeting with the counselor on Friday and if he wanted to talk to me before that to let me know. So, when he said he wanted to talk I said, "When, after my appointment?" He said no, today. I told him that my uncle had died, I had to drop the dog off a a sitter, go shop for a top to wear to the service, go home, shower, run a load of laundry, hem my pants and have dinner. I told him we could talk on the phone after 6:00. He said, "Let me know when you have time for me." Ugh! All about him. No, sorry about your uncle, nothing. So, I said fine, meet me at 4:30 after I drop off the dog. The whole time I was driving over there I kept saying to myself - this is a bad idea, this is a bad idea... (stupid co-dependence!)

So, at 4:30 he shows up. He seems very calm and at peace. He says that he has made up his mind about what he has to do and he feels like the weight of the world is off his shoulders. He did most of the talking - I had no idea what to say. I told him that this was not what I wanted, but that I was glad he was feeling better and I didn't want to say anything to make this harder for him. He thanked me. I thought things were over. We were not yelling at each other - it was a good end. He moved in to hug me and I did let him. It went downhill from there. He hugged me several more times. I had been crying off and on (he doesn't like it when I cry - it is one of our problems, me not being able to let my feelings out). So, I was about to burst out sobbing and I pushed him away and told him he better go. I got in my car and sobbed and he left.

I finally got it together. I went and bought the blouse and things I needed and was driving home when my cell phone rang. He is all sobby again and telling me how good it felt to hug me and how he was so set about what he wanted to do and that just hugging me brought back all these feelings. I told him I was 10 minutes from home, that I didn't want to get all upset again because our daughter didn't even know we had talked and I didn't want her to know about what was going on yet.

Hubby proceeded to call the house when I got home. I told him I could not talk just then. He called back. He says, "Please talk to me." I went on the porch and told him that our daughter was home and I did not want to talk. He was losing control and the phone call went badly, as usual. I came back in and our daughter was crying. She went to her room. Hubby called again - maybe twice. I told him to stop calling and I unplugged the phone.

Now he calls her on her cell phone. I went in to ask her to help my pin up the pants I had to hem and she gave me the hold-up-the-finger thing to indicate she was on the phone. I went to the living room and made due with pinning up my pants myself. 

Eventually she came out of her room and said she was going for a drive. Hubby called before she could get out the door. We talked/fought some more. He said all kinds of horrible things, wouldn't hear anything I was saying, accused me of being a Jekyl and Hyde and blamed my mood swings on the Lexapro. 

When she came back home I told him I had to go and hung up. I tried calling him back on more time because one thing was really bothering me. He said that he had hoped I would break down crying and ask him not to go through with it. I said that maybe I didn't break down crying (because he doesn't like me to cry) but I did tell him this is not what I want. I reminded him that I didn't want to upset him by trying to get him to change his mind and that he had thanked me. I also reminded him that I had said that a divorce takes six months and if things change by then we don't have to sign the final papers. He would have none of it. That was the end of the calls for the night.

I called him this morning on my way out of town for the funeral (5 hours each way). I told him that I did not want to fight. That I am confused and that I do not understand what he wants from me right now. I told him I know what he wants long-term (to be together), but since I have told him I want to stay apart while we work on things, and he has said repeatedly that he can't do that - I don't understand what he wants. He thanked me for calling, said he had been an ass, etc. It sounds like he now is back to wanting a divorce.

Oh, at some point when we were talking (before the phone calls, while he was still calm) he did say he was sorry about my uncle. Better late than never, I suppose. But, I have several family members age 80 or older, including both of my parents. The next ten years are going to be hard. I have told my husband that I am worried that he will make me feel pressured to be home with him when I need to spend extended amounts of time with my parents/stepparents as their time comes. What happened yesterday just compounded those fears.

So, I am sorry to ramble. It is hard to believe so many hurtful things can be said in such a short amount of time. That I can repeat myself so many times and remain unheard. That he can be so irrational and continually try and turn things back on me. That he still threatens suicide and then turns around and tells me not to worry.

I honestly don't know how much more of this I can take, but I have been saying that for a long time now and I seem to keep surviving and holding out some hope. Some days I really just want to throw in the towel 

Thanks for listening.

Sandy


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## dancininthestorm (Sep 30, 2009)

The more you explain your situation the more I see the damage I have done. I can tell you I did many of the things you describe your husband doing. The constant phone calls, threatening, hurtful words, and acting as though you would prefer to just divorce...I did all of that, and dragged it out over the course of fourth months. I'm certain he loves you dearly and is reacting to a situation that he has little control over. Just like you, he is on an extreme emotional roller coaster and is finding ways to cope. For me it took a break to step back and realize how much control I actually did have. Hopefully soon he will realize he cannot control or change your feelings, but he can control his emotionals, behaviors, and especially how he treats you now. It's silly how we rationalize our feelings during these difficult times. Somehow we feel as though we are fighting for you by pleading, crying, fighting, and saying we'll change. Acting as though he will leave is only a way of getting you to want to come back or risk losing him. We know for certain he doesn't want that. He has to realize changes for himself need to be made before you can work on the relationship together. I had to realize that I love my wife unconditionally and allow her to come around on her terms if she chose, rather than mine. You echoed what she's said so often about it being all about me. I'm not sure what it will take for him to realize his behaviors are worsing the situation. Why we (men) cannot realize negative emotions and behaviors only do more damage during an already tense period. It's plain dumb, and the counselor should be pointing that out. Even in the face of it myself, I can say you are doing the right thing if you want a permanent change to keep your relationship long-term. I know I can be very stubborn and narrow-minded, so I'm not even sure what you can do to help him make this realization. It really is something he needs to understand himself. Maybe the threat of him actually losing you will wake him up. My wife filed for divorce and did not convince me she was hurt and wanted to leave. She told me many of the things you say to your husband and I responded the same way. It took me signing the papers before I woke up. I learned a lot about myself through this difficult period and it took someone holding up a mirror, so to say, before I realized the real problem. It's a sad situation because you both would prefer the same thing, but he doesn't see it that way. I hope he comes around before it's too late....


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