# Exit Affair vs Bowing Out Gracefully



## Dude007

Why does the latter seem so hard when we know its BY FAR the best way to get out of a dead marriage? Why does it seem so compelling to have an exit affair to get out of a marriage? I guess it boils down to FEAR and INSECURITIES. A strong secure person would handle in the latter way while most default to a companion/friend "helping" them out of their marriage. Then that relationship is BAD from the beginning and round and round they go! Any thoughts on why people wait until they meet someone to make the move out?(Facebook, co-workers, etc) Its so sleazy. DUDE


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## happy as a clam

Because most people are too chicken to leave -- to leave their cush life, to leave the "known", to bail on their routines -- until they have someone else lined up, their "hot" affair partner, waiting in the wings.

Not saying I agree with that. Just sayin'...


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## SARAHMCD

Agreed. Most people have a fear of being alone. Or simply a fear of the unknown (state of being alone). 
Sometimes its laziness. Just staying in the relationship, unless its abusive, is easier than making the big announcement, confrontation, upheaval of lives, to move out. If they have someone on the side, this is a catalyst to say "ok, now I HAVE to get out".


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## kristin2349

I agree it is a fear of being alone, but it is also that fear of what is next, what do I tell people...If you are already wrapped up in a new relationsip it answers all those scary questions. 

Instead of diving into the deep end of the pool and bowing out gracefully, they use another person as "water wings" and toss them when they decide they can swim on their own.


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## Dude007

So out of the folks who choose to leave their marriage, how many are being "helped' by a friend? 70%? And what about the affair partner who never gets the person to leave their marriage, you would have to feel like crap....DUDE


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## Marduk

Sometimes people also want to leave but can't admit it to themselves until they're having sex with someone else. 

History gets re-written a lot during an affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dude007

So then maybe their fog clears and they are the ones who blew up their marriage for nothing. That's probably the worst case and then their spouse leaves them. Then they are the "left" one in the divorce and have abandonment issues on top of prior waywardness. Yikes! If u are in an affair you better be sure you are ready to lose your spouse for sure cuz this sounds very risky to be left in that way.


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## happy as a clam

marduk said:


> Sometimes people also want to leave but can't admit it to themselves until they're having sex with someone else.
> 
> History gets re-written a lot during an affair.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree. 

Then there's always people like me who told their spouse they were leaving a year ahead of time, the marriage was over, they filed for divorce... BUT their spouse was in denial and trying to stall and prevent the divorce (despite 10 years of misery), racked up TENS upon TENS of THOUSANDS of dollars in legal fees; and THEN the person who wants out meets a new partner. Soooo... that exiting partner says "to h*ll with it, I am moving on with my new partner. Not wasting any more of my life in this circus."

It has nothing to do with "not admitting it to themselves until they are having sex with someone else." And certainly no re-writing of history. It has much more to do with a passive-aggressive partner who refuses to lose at all costs. Including the damage to his children.


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## kristin2349

Dude007 said:


> So then maybe their fog clears and they are the ones who blew up their marriage for nothing. That's probably the worst case and then their spouse leaves them. Then they are the "left" one in the divorce and have abandonment issues on top of prior waywardness. Yikes! If u are in an affair you better be sure you are ready to lose your spouse for sure cuz this sounds very risky to be left in that way.


That happened to my Ex, he had an affair and ended it. She wanted him to leave he decided he wanted to stay married. He almost got away with it, but he didn't. The truth came out and I filed on him. He is living in an apartment complex filled with middle aged divorced executives.


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## toonaive

Dude007 said:


> So then maybe their fog clears and they are the ones who blew up their marriage for nothing. That's probably the worst case and then their spouse leaves them. Then they are the "left" one in the divorce and have abandonment issues on top of prior waywardness. Yikes! If u are in an affair you better be sure you are ready to lose your spouse for sure cuz this sounds very risky to be left in that way.


This is the scenario that happened with my marriage. I sometimes feel badly for my XW. But, she is the one who made a sequence of decisions that led to her current lifestyle.


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## Dude007

toonaive said:


> This is the scenario that happened with my marriage. I sometimes feel badly for my XW. But, she is the one who made a sequence of decisions that led to her current lifestyle.


You should feel badly for her, shows you are human and that you are healed. How is she doing now?


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## moco82

kristin2349 said:


> He is living in an apartment complex filled with middle aged divorced executives.


Are these OK apartments? I couldn't afford a doghouse around where I live if I left.


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## kristin2349

moco82 said:


> Are these OK apartments? I couldn't afford a doghouse around where I live if I left.



Yes lol,the apartments are actually nice luxury apartments. He is living quite well, money was not an issue in our marriage, fidelity on his part was what did it in. Aside from his affair with a 29 year old subordinate it was a good marriage.


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## Nomorebeans

SARAHMCD said:


> Agreed. Most people have a fear of being alone. Or simply a fear of the unknown (state of being alone).
> Sometimes its laziness. Just staying in the relationship, unless its abusive, is easier than making the big announcement, confrontation, upheaval of lives, to move out. If they have someone on the side, this is a catalyst to say "ok, now I HAVE to get out".


And this is what happened to me. My VSTBXH even used the word "catalyst" to describe the affair.

As others have said, it takes serious bravery to leave honorably, and face being alone, possibly for a long time, just like the spouse you are leaving is doing.

My H tried to pretend he was leaving honorably - he told me he wanted to separate in October, but not because there was someone else. He lied - he had met her and started the affair a month before. If I'd never caught him, he would have kept that lie going until after we were divorced - really, forever, unless he got caught first.

So here's someone who clearly knows what the right thing to do was, and pretended to be doing it so no one would realize he isn't the hero he wanted them to think he was.

That's cowardice. Squared.


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## honcho

I think the exit affair term is overused and it's kind of like the chicken or egg argument. The history rewrite and all the other textbook lines they use it becomes so hard to differentiate what is just a line of nonesense and what's a valid reason. 

The irony of the "exit affair" is the overwhelmingly majority of affairs never turn into long relationships. They fear being alone but that's usually what happens and often in a much worse off position than had they done just a normal boring divorce.


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## Thor

I think the traditional definition of an exit affair is where one person creates a reason for divorce. They don't believe their unhappiness is sufficient justification.

My mother had such an exit affair at about age 50 when all the kids were finally out of the house. She grew up in a very Victorian family, where divorce was not something done lightly. There had to be some kind of "legitimate" cause for divorce. My dad was not abusive, just a bad match for her. So she had to create a legitimate reason to divorce him. Ergo the exit affair.

She's been very happily married to her AP for over 25 years now. They are an excellent match, and everyone but my dad likes him and are glad they met.


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## Dude007

Thor said:


> I think the traditional definition of an exit affair is where one person creates a reason for divorce. They don't believe their unhappiness is sufficient justification.
> 
> My mother had such an exit affair at about age 50 when all the kids were finally out of the house. She grew up in a very Victorian family, where divorce was not something done lightly. There had to be some kind of "legitimate" cause for divorce. My dad was not abusive, just a bad match for her. So she had to create a legitimate reason to divorce him. Ergo the exit affair.
> 
> She's been very happily married to her AP for over 25 years now. They are an excellent match, and everyone but my dad likes him and are glad they met.


Wow at 50...That was ballsy...DUDE


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## sisters359

I think sometimes people will only admit to themselves that they are that desperate to leave if they have done the "unthinkable." But usually, I suspect, it's the comfort of everything and just wanting that plus the excitement of a new love interest that leads people to cheat. 

I wanted to cheat--that's how I knew it was time to leave.


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## Dyokemm

"She's been very happily married to her AP for over 25 years now. They are an excellent match, and everyone but my dad likes him and are glad they met."

You are a h*ll of a lot nicer than me Thor. (and nothing wrong with that, just saying)

If my mom did that to my dad at age 50, I would never speak to her again.....EVER.

She would be tossing away not just her H, but her own son as well.


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## Dude007

Dyokemm said:


> "She's been very happily married to her AP for over 25 years now. They are an excellent match, and everyone but my dad likes him and are glad they met."
> 
> You are a h*ll of a lot nicer than me Thor. (and nothing wrong with that, just saying)
> 
> If my mom did that to my dad at age 50, I would never speak to her again.....EVER.
> 
> She would be tossing away not just her H, but her own son as well.


Agreed, there are classier ways to leave a marriage for sure..DUDE


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## Dyokemm

And just to be clear, I would refuse to ever talk to or see my dad as well....if he were to do that to my mom.

Gender makes no difference in my mind when it comes to traitorous behavior and the consequences that should be delivered to the guilty party.


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## Dude007

Dyokemm said:


> And just to be clear, I would refuse to ever talk to or see my dad as well....if he were to do that to my mom.
> 
> Gender makes no difference in my mind when it comes to traitorous behavior and the consequences that should be delivered to the guilty party.


Truth be told, the exit affairees probably harm themselves FAR MORE than anyone else...Their consequences are madness, dementia and the like.


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## rgol

"To Dude, my point is, people are not just sitting there, mulling over whether to have an affair or to leave their spouse. My guess is that if they know their marriage is over, they are already in a vulnerable state, doing a lot of soul searching, maybe acting out with bad behavior (avoidance), and/or choosing not to face the situation. Are YOU in any of those categories?"

My wife sums this up well. I do not think she knew/knows that the marriage was over when she had her EA/PA. However, she looked to the marriage to make her happy and when that did not, she looked externally. She now has a huge need for attention, affirmation & validation from women and men alike. Facebook is her drug of choice and has a large 'fear or missing out' (FOMO) on any and all social events.

She is so lost and avoiding dealing with the internal issues she possesses. I am not sure she will ever face the situation while married to me. We will most likely divorce and maybe one day she will look in the mirror to start addressing the real void inside of her.


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## Dude007

"To Dude, my point is, people are not just sitting there, mulling over whether to have an affair or to leave their spouse. My guess is that if they know their marriage is over, they are already in a vulnerable state, doing a lot of soul searching, maybe acting out with bad behavior (avoidance), and/or choosing not to face the situation. Are YOU in any of those categories?"

yeah, I'm sure folks about to have an affair come on "Talk about marriage site" all the time. /sarc off

I wouldn't have an affair. I don't even know if I would ever marry again. Personally, I see absolutely zero advantages to an affair. Plus, I have a big ego so having someone keep me secret in the shadows is just not my style. I have to be "OUT THERE!!" ha! DUDE


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## Holland

Dude007 said:


> So out of the folks who choose to leave their marriage, how many are being "helped' by a friend? 70%? And what about the affair partner who never gets the person to leave their marriage, you would have to feel like crap....DUDE


In my circle I would say that less than 2% left/ended a marriage with someone else as a back up. I do know a few that were on the receiving end of this, 3 of them and all women who's husbands had affairs then tried to rip them off financially while leaving with the affair partner. 

Then again I must live in fairy land because I have ever only met less than a handful of people that have had affairs unlike the world of TAM where you would think every second person is a cheater.


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## Nomorebeans

Holland said:


> In my circle I would say that less than 2% left/ended a marriage with someone else as a back up. I do know a few that were on the receiving end of this, 3 of them and all women who's husbands had affairs then tried to rip them off financially while leaving with the affair partner.
> 
> Then again I must live in fairy land because I have ever only met less than a handful of people that have had affairs unlike the world of TAM where you would think every second person is a cheater.


You maybe do live in a fairy land. I have met and know many cheaters. Some were single and were the OM or OW. Some were married when they cheated. But my ex-husband is a pilot, as are many of our friends. I also work for a global company where people travel quite a bit for their jobs.

Even so, come to think of it, I know cheaters who don't work in either of our professions. They're just overly entitled and don't give a crap about anyone but themselves - it's bound to happen for people like that eventually. I'm afraid it's pretty rampant, and TAM represents it well.


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## Dude007

Beanie you divorced now. How are u? You seem so damn logical. That's probably helpful in a world full of nut jobs


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## Nomorebeans

Dude007 said:


> Beanie you divorced now. How are u? You seem so damn logical. That's probably helpful in a world full of nut jobs


I'm a 50-year-old woman raising a teenage son alone. I'm living the dream.


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## sapientia

Meaningless affair, financial security, stay for the kids, false reconciliation... these are all the lies we tell ourselves so we don't have to take responsibility for our own happiness and destiny.

Some of those lies might even be reasonable, especially financial security and stability for children. Hey, some people are perfectly cool with open marriages, while some call it infidelity (I don't, not if there is disclosure and agreement). Or the couples who cope with antidepressants or alcohol. Or separate vacations and shopping sprees (or golf/fishing weeks). I've said it before: all relationships are transactional.

But can you be truly happy with those trade-offs? There's the rub. It's all about choices.


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## Dude007

Zanne said:


> You're a funny guy.
> 
> 
> I asked you if you were in ANY of those categories, avoidance being one of them.
> 
> You seem like a well balanced individual. I would think such an person would have boundaries and more importantly, would care about not crossing those boundaries. So of course it's difficult for you to understand why someone would choose this path.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sort of in classic avoidance but I'm in MC so maybe I'm coming around???!!(Crazy Emoji Face)


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## Dude007

Nomorebeans said:


> I'm a 50-year-old woman raising a teenage son alone. I'm living the dream.


Sounds like you were raising him alone long ago my friend...DUDE


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## Married but Happy

My attitude is always to do the right thing and act with integrity, and I have done so even when wronged by someone else. However, I can imagine extreme scenarios where desire for revenge for a major wrong could - possibly - motivate me to violate my principles. I'm human after all, but I'm also happy to say that I've never yet acted on such impulses. If I ever do, it will be an all-out effort with full intention!


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## Dude007

Zanne said:


> Coming around to what?? LOL
> 
> You're doing fine, Dude. At least you're exploring the right avenues.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks! DUDE0


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## Nomorebeans

Dude007 said:


> Nomorebeans said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a 50-year-old woman raising a teenage son alone. I'm living the dream.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you were raising him alone long ago my friend...DUDE
Click to expand...

I was in the marriage alone for a long time, but I wasn't raising our son alone. He was always a very involved father. He still is, but now that he no longer lives with us, it's much harder than I thought it would be.

Our son doesn't like to stay overnight at his house - EH has tried to make it comfortable for him, but DS says he's just much more comfortable in his own home. They spend a good deal of time together when EH is in town, but DS very rarely spends any nights with him. I feel like I'm punishing him for our problems by insisting he stay with him when he's home, so he really is with me the vast majority of the time, even though our agreement is for joint custody. Not complaining about that - I'm happy to have him at home with me. But it is all me. His Dad comes over and takes him to do fun stuff. I'm the one getting him to bed, making sure he brushes his teeth first, getting him up in the morning, etc. Always. I used to have some help and support with the un-fun stuff, and now it's gone.

Just really feeling the weight of that today.


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## Dude007

How can you make the unfun stuff fun? Can you make up a game to play or something you do together right before he goes to bed? Do some things you didn't do before. Do you have a big sound system in the home or car? In the mornings while he's getting ready rock this house w his fav music. Not that you will be his best friend but becoming a reinvented you is part of this process. Think back twenty years and do something a little edgey. He won't think both his parents have gone bonkers trust me.


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## Nomorebeans

Good suggestions, Dude. I do try to do some fun stuff with him at the house - he doesn't like to go to the mall or movies or restaurants just with me, because he's at that stage of not wanting to be called a Mama's Boy. But we play ping pong, or shoot baskets, or watch a TV show he likes pretty regularly. Lately we're both busy watching the puppy I idiotically rescued at a weak moment. I love her, but I had forgotten how exhausting training and taking care of a puppy is.

Getting back to the topic at hand, the thing that bothers him about his Dad's exit affair the most is that he didn't just leave honorably before he ever met her and go be alone for a while first if he was so unhappy. His words. I didn't feed those to him. He has said he forgives him, because, as he says, what's the point in not forgiving? That's just another way of holding on to anger about something you can't change. (I need to take a page from his book.) But at the same time, he's said he's disappointed in him for being such a coward. Again, all his words.


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## Dude007

Nomorebeans said:


> Good suggestions, Dude. I do try to do some fun stuff with him at the house - he doesn't like to go to the mall or movies or restaurants just with me, because he's at that stage of not wanting to be called a Mama's Boy. But we play ping pong, or shoot baskets, or watch a TV show he likes pretty regularly. Lately we're both busy watching the puppy I idiotically rescued at a weak moment. I love her, but I had forgotten how exhausting training and taking care of a puppy is.
> 
> Getting back to the topic at hand, the thing that bothers him about his Dad's exit affair the most is that he didn't just leave honorably before he ever met her and go be alone for a while first if he was so unhappy. His words. I didn't feed those to him. He has said he forgives him, because, as he says, what's the point in not forgiving? That's just another way of holding on to anger about something you can't change. (I need to take a page from his book.) But at the same time, he's said he's disappointed in him for being such a coward. Again, all his words.


So this circles back to the topic of this thread. Its so damn hard to sit and talk to your spouse when you feel the marriage is just not working any longer. RATHER than the exit affair, you need a safe exit for all involved. Is it admirable if a partner came and said they just fell out of love and need to find themselves? It still causes some wreckage and the left spouse may still feel like the leaver is trying to "hurt" them in some way. How do I avoid being an assjack in my sitch? Or am I screwed regardless and a lot of people are going to be disappointed in me if I bolt? I honestly don't even know how I got here??!! 

PS just got out of MC.....Yuck.....DUDE


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## SadSamIAm

I am in a sexless marriage. Recently read MMSLP (again) and see how I have screwed up. I should have kept myself in better shape. My wife has no respect for me and doesn't care about my happiness. The less she cares about my happiness, the less I care about hers. I have spent my life trying to make her happy and to do things for her and I admit that much of this was to get her to be attracted to me. To want to have sex with me. MMSLP calls me a CHUMP.

I am just starting the MAP. My plan is to get myself into better shape. Need to lose 25 lbs. Need to lift some weights and try to build some muscle. Not sure how successful I will be at this at 51 years of age. 

As per the MAP ..... If my plan goes correctly, my wife will gain attraction to me. But if she doesn't, I will be in a better place to meet someone new. I have been married for 27 years and have never cheated. I don't plan on cheating. But if she doesn't come around and I start getting attention from other women then it will be tough. The right thing to do will be to file for divorce before any cheating happens. My plan for now is to do it in the correct order. But looking ahead, I can see how an affair happens first for many people in my situation.


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## Nomorebeans

An affair happens first for many people in your situation because they are cowards. They're afraid of being alone. So they stay with their cold comfort of a marriage until they find someone who gives them all the ego kibble they crave, and then they leave their spouses alone instead.

They're also afraid of what people will think of them if they "just leave." Guess what? People will think much less of them when they cheat. But by the time the cheating starts, they get so deep in The Fog that they start to believe ridiculous things like they won't get caught - they pretty much always do.

Don't be a coward. The same goes for you, too, Dude. You clearly do not love your wife anymore. At least also sentence yourself to potentially being alone for a long time like you're also sentencing her to. People will respect you for that. They will never respect you for cheating, unless they have cheating hearts themselves.


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## Thundarr

Dude007 said:


> Why does the latter seem so hard when we know its BY FAR the best way to get out of a dead marriage? Why does it seem so compelling to have an exit affair to get out of a marriage? I guess it boils down to FEAR and INSECURITIES. A strong secure person would handle in the latter way while most default to a companion/friend "helping" them out of their marriage. Then that relationship is BAD from the beginning and round and round they go! Any thoughts on why people wait until they meet someone to make the move out?(Facebook, co-workers, etc) Its so sleazy. DUDE


One reason is the pressures to not be lonely is more important than their word. In my opinion that's the defining characteristic of people who cannot be trusted in general and not just in relationships. Another reason is the exit affair is what actually causes the break up.


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## Dude007

Zanne said:


> Why "Yuck" about MC?
> 
> Yeah, it sucks knowing you're going to be the "bad guy" for being the one to end things. It's not like you don't care for your family, but is it fair to you to accept an existence which brings you no hope for change?
> 
> I've been there, Dude. I tried MC even though I felt like I was just doing it for everyone else. I knew in my heart that my marriage was over.
> 
> But here's the thing about exit affairs, I don't think they only happen for the reasons you listed. I wasn't looking for an affair. I was actually in a strong place mentally as I was going to IC and I was also seeking God for answers to my situation. I remember actually feeling at peace during that time even though I had no idea how it would be resolved.
> 
> Also, I feel like I was alone for most of my marriage. I was very involved with the kids and that kept me busy and satisfied. My husband did his thing and I did mine. So I wasn't seeking an affair because I was lonely.
> 
> But there must have been something about me which allowed it to happen. I am trying to figure that out. I believe it's far more complicated than saying it was because of any one reason.
> 
> I will tell you one thing, I resented my husband because he was in the same damn marriage and he was okay with it. It still bothers me to this day and I see it here. Does this mean that the person who is left was okay with their spouse feeling whatever the negative feelings were? Maybe they were afraid of being alone, etc., and keeping their spouse at all cost, including that person's own happiness, was a-okay with them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Honestly, I think marriages are just very difficult and are under attack constantly. I don't think either party is to blame per se. ITs just that hard so you need to be REALLY COMPATIBLE and REALLY DEDICATED. If either isn't then its doomed IMHO....And yes, I hate being the one to point out all the gaps in our marriage that are really no one's fault. We are just two different people...It sucks to figure it out so many years later...DUDE


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## Nomorebeans

I wasn't OK with my marriage the way it was. I wanted to work on it, go to MC, etc. My ex didn't. He was the one who said things were just fine the way they were when I asked him if he was unhappy, but then proceeded to disconnect privately from me without saying a word, and leave after he'd established a nice comfy new relationship for himself from within the safety of our marriage.

Just wanted to get that on the record, Zanne, for you and any others who think all of us who are cheated on should have seen it coming.


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## Dude007

Zanne I think it's hard for betrayed spouses understanding the consequences of waywardness. Most people haven't even connected it w dementia but I have. Do delude yourself so much and make such distortions in your mind most wayward wives are doomed to an early dementia sentence. There are many more consequences I'm sure you can mention.


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## Nomorebeans

Zanne, I do feel for you and others here who tell your spouses repeatedly about your unhappiness only to have it fall on deaf ears. Or worse, be mocked for your attempts to make things better.

I feel for you because I did that - I read books and recommended date nights, counseling, other ways to try to reconnect. And he poo-pooed them all. And then he was the one who ended up cheating.

Maybe I should have walked away long ago, and I'm a coward, too, in a way. But I hadn't disconnected from him like he had from me, and I wasn't unhappy like it turns out he was. I still thought we had a good relationship and our problems could be fixed, but maybe I didn't try hard enough to force the issue. I certainly should have sought IC. I wanted to, but he talked me out of it. I should have vetoed it - I could have gotten it for free from my company.

A wise divorced friend who's happily remarried said not to beat myself up for what I think I did and didn't do - learn from it what to do and not do next time. I'm not blaming myself for his affair - that's all on him. Hopefully I know more about what marriage should be now that I've seen what it shouldn't.


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## Dyokemm

"@Dyokemm, I worry about you. I know you're not a Christian anymore, but forgiveness can be a part of healing."

Zanne,

I appreciate your concern and understand your viewpoint.

You and I have exchanged thoughts many times.....though I never agreed with the choices you made or the actions you took, I always knew you were a generally kind-hearted woman who wanted to live as a better Christian regardless of her struggles.

So I know that your comment above shows genuine concern rather than snark.

But I have to assure you, I don't see forgiveness as having anything to do with healing.

I do forgive most wrongs people do me...but there are certain actions, that I will NEVER forgive....betrayal is one.

And it doesn't bother me one bit....there are some things that I just will never give people a pass on.

I will despise them til the day I die....I do not actively seek out these people to hate on or inflict pain....but I have nothing but disdainful indifference for the mere thought or memory of them.

My only thoughts of them are absolute disgust and complete indifference....if they were to disappear from the world tomorrow, my only reaction would be to think 'good riddance'....followed by 'now back to our other programming'.

I know that sounds bad to a Christian like yourself, but with my loss of faith came a VERY different view of emotions or actions like anger, hatred, vengeance, and forgiveness.

I can say on a lot of these things, my views are far more akin to the pre-Christian ideas of the classical and ancient world.

I think they are natural and normal reactions to the wrongs others inflict on us....I no longer have a sense of guilt or shame associated with them because they are 'sinful'.

It's not that I oppose forgiveness as a concept at all....but I liken it to Aristotle's admonition of doing everything in moderation.....and the result of immoderate behavior is a loss of dignity, honor, and self-respect.

To me that means this.....for relatively small or minor offenses, forgiveness is the proper path to take.

But some wrongful actions are so heinous in nature that forgiving them would be an act of 'immoderation' when it comes to forgiveness.

There are actions that as so bad they should NOT be forgiven IMO.

And I rank betrayal as one of those types of injuries.


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## Dude007

Dyokem, could you forgive if you found out your spouse was manipulated into an affair? It does happen where they really are the victim. Sometimes a person can be so lonely even in their marriage they are vulnerable.

@zanne I love you too!!!! Dude


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## Dyokemm

Dude,

No....I do not believe an adult can or should be exonerated from the choices they made.

'I was tricked'...'I was manipulated'...."He took advantage of me'.

These are all bullsh*t excuses and justifications from a person who doesn't want to be an adult and own their own choices.

And that fact would make them even LESS deserving of forgiveness IMO.....they can't even admit fault and show remorse for what they did.

Being a traitor is simply one of the LOWEST things a human being can do IMO.....and no amount of justification or excuse making will change the fact that they decided to betray the people who loved and trusted them the most in the world, their spouse and family.

So I guess, I would say that your view that sometimes they (the WS) are the victim in these situations, is an opinion I would disagree with completely.

I do not think they are ever a victim.

And just being 'vulnerable' because of a bunch of things that make them sad or unhappy is not an excuse.

The most notorious traitors in history (and yes, IMO the essence of infidelity and/or personal betrayal is the same as treason to the group/state...the only difference is one of SCALE not the basic nature of the offense)....Benedict Arnold, Victor Quisling, Judas Iscariot, etc....all had reasons for why they turned traitor too, and felt they had been wronged.

Do we excuse them or call them victims of manipulation?


----------



## sapientia

Dude007 said:


> So this circles back to the topic of this thread. Its so damn hard to sit and talk to your spouse when you feel the marriage is just not working any longer. RATHER than the exit affair, you need a safe exit for all involved. Is it admirable if a partner came and said they just fell out of love and need to find themselves? It still causes some wreckage and the left spouse may still feel like the leaver is trying to "hurt" them in some way. How do I avoid being an assjack in my sitch? Or am I screwed regardless and a lot of people are going to be disappointed in me if I bolt? I honestly don't even know how I got here??!!
> 
> PS just got out of MC.....Yuck.....DUDE


I did MC too for 2 years, even though we both knew going in that we were already done. I think one of the biggest values of MC is it provides time to make sure you are really making the best decision for everyone involved. Personal insight for us , not so much, but it does provide this for some also. We got all the insight we needed from our interactions with each other, lol.



Nomorebeans said:


> An affair happens first for many people in your situation because they are cowards. They're afraid of being alone. So they stay with their cold comfort of a marriage until they find someone who gives them all the ego kibble they crave, and then they leave their spouses alone instead.
> 
> They're also afraid of what people will think of them if they "just leave." Guess what? People will think much less of them when they cheat. But by the time the cheating starts, they get so deep in The Fog that they start to believe ridiculous things like they won't get caught - they pretty much always do.
> 
> Don't be a coward. The same goes for you, too, Dude. You clearly do not love your wife anymore. At least also sentence yourself to potentially being alone for a long time like you're also sentencing her to. People will respect you for that. They will never respect you for cheating, unless they have cheating hearts themselves.


I'd be interested to know about other's experiences, but my best learnings in life came from when I actively chose to confront something I was afraid of. Fear paralyzes many, but its also a great learning tool for those who can find their way to overcome it.


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## Dude007

"I'd be interested to know about other's experiences, but my best learnings in life came from when I actively chose to confront something I was afraid of. Fear paralyzes many, but its also a great learning tool for those who can find their way to overcome it." Bingo!!!


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## sapientia

Dyokemm said:


> The most notorious traitors in history (and yes, IMO the essence of infidelity and/or personal betrayal is the same as treason to the group/state...the only difference is one of SCALE not the basic nature of the offense)....Benedict Arnold, Victor Quisling, Judas Iscariot, etc....all had reasons for why they turned traitor too, and felt they had been wronged.
> 
> Do we excuse them or call them victims of manipulation?


Personally, I don't call them anything. History is written by people with biased agendas. Your examples had their beliefs which were clearly strong enough to act upon. I hope they were happy, or at least satisfied, in doing so. There is a lot of evil in judging wrongly, which many unthinking people do with regularity.


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## Dyokemm

sapientia said:


> Your examples had their beliefs which were clearly strong enough to act upon.


My point was that EVERY traitor has their justifications and excuses....including adulterous spouses.

Do we excuse or accept their justifications?

I certainly don't.....their is NO excuse for betrayal IMO.


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## sapientia

Most people who judge do so because they do not want to be judged themselves. I try to avoid this because in my experience there are always two sides to a story. Few BS will admit this, but in their hearts I think many know that they contributed to the problems in their marriage. That doesn't justify cheating but it does make the human experience of it more understandable.

I suspect you never read Benedict Arnold's letter To the Inhabitants of America. Here in Canada he's a very minor historical figure, but its quite an interesting read. He was a prominent businessman, employed many people (i.e. supported many families), was very supportive of American independence but was concerned about corruption of the government leaders of the time. He also requested protection for his family as an American rebel and was refused.

I suspect he was quite outraged at much of what he experienced in his time. He also seemed to be satisfied with his choices, so I suppose from his experience it really doesn't matter what the rest of us think.


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## sapientia

It's trivial to judge. The problem is you waste your time judging when you could be creating, or doing things for yourself.

When I rarely judge, it's only to understand. I don't think its what most people would call judging. I don't get emotional about it. From that understanding I make a choice. Sometimes, I choose to help that person move toward a better future. Sometimes I choose to let them discover the consequences of their choices for themselves. My response to you, for example, would fall into the former, but will rapidly become the latter. I think angry people are dangerous so I try to get them to understand this about themselves when I can.

Either way, I don't allow myself to get angry or outraged about it. Why would I waste my energy on this instead of doing something that has value to my own goals and life?


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## Dyokemm

Actually, I have read A LOT about Benedict Arnold...I teach American History in addition to Government and Economics.

Benedict Arnold's treason was primarily motivated by the fact he felt slighted and unappreciated after his leading role in the American victory at Saratoga in 1777.

He resented what he saw as favoritism shown to Washington and other generals by the Continental Congress...as a result, he cut a deal with the British to surrender West Point to the Crown in return for a command and the rank of Major General in the British Army.

His claims of worry about corruption were nothing more than the self-justification of a traitor.

No traitor ever ADMITS they are just a self-centered POS....they always throw out reasons for why their backstabbing of friends, family, and those closest to them...or in this case their own country and cause....was not really bad, but something they were compelled to do out of necessity.

It's all bullsh*t IMO.

But hey, we can agree to disagree.


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## Dyokemm

And while I respect your opinion, I think it is absolutely NECESSARY to judge the actions of others.

The only guides to human behavior come from analyzing and judging actions and choices, including our own.

The question is by what standards we judge, and when should judgement go beyond simple disapproval to consequence.

IMO, John Stuart Mill provided the best boundary for the last point.

In his book On Liberty, Mill declared that the only point at which society had the right to inflict consequences on an individual was when their choices DIRECTLY injured others in their lives and rights.

I agree.....there are quite a few things that others do that I would never choose to do, or even disapprove of doing.....but I do not support enacting consequences on them.

For example, I think based on what it can do to a person's health and their ability to support themselves properly, that taking heroin is a stupid and dangerous thing to do....so yes, I am judging their choices.

However, if they were not directly injuring or hurting other people, then I don't think they should be jailed or punished by society.

Actions that do damage others though, and I think betrayal certainly falls into this category, not only should be judged....but they do deserve consequences.

And the more severe the damage or injury inflicted, the more severe the consequence.....and some acts even cross into the category of unforgivable in my eyes.

Since I view betrayal as one of the most heinous actions a human can engage in.....I think it deserves severe consequences...including non-forgiveness.


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## Dude007

"It's trivial to judge. The problem is you waste your time judging when you could be creating, or doing things for yourself. When I rarely judge, it's only to understand. I don't think its what most people would call judging. I don't get emotional about it. From that understanding I make a choice. Sometimes, I choose to help that person move toward a better future. Sometimes I choose to let them discover the consequences of their choices for themselves. My response to you, for example, would fall into the former, but will rapidly become the latter. I think angry people are dangerous so I try to get them to understand this about themselves when I can. Either way, I don't allow myself to get angry or outraged about it. Why would I waste my energy on this instead of doing something that has value to my own goals and life?"

Wow beautifully said and I agree completely. Are you some famous philosopher. This is some deep **** your write. Dude


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## Dyokemm

"It's trivial to judge."

I cannot disagree more....without judgement, we lose the power of discernment or analysis....we lose the ability to identify injurious and damaging actions from those that are either neutral (impacting only the actor) or beneficial....and only the most self-centered and narcissistic of views would retort that other people are of no concern to me or the expenditure of my energies. 

Without judgement, everything becomes equally valid or possible, depending only on the motivations or desires of the acting party, and disregarding any consequences or impact those actions have on others.

Dude007.....your very question to start this thread implies making a judgement....Why x instead of z?

It calls upon the responder to make a judgement about why x or z is a 'better' choice...and that will involve either approval or disapproval of people making those choices.

If judging is truly trivial, the question "why not have an exit A?" becomes as morally valid as "why not leave the M before cheating?"

Either choice is as acceptable as the other without judgement.

Of course, extend this concept of moral ambiguity to other human interactions beyond just infidelity, and the potential consequences for civilized society become truly frightening.


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## CTPlay

Having been to numerous separation group meetings, I'd say maybe 8 out of 10 had affairs. 

One got divorced, very painfully, because the wife was mentally not well. It destroyed him because he loved her but could not endure anymore pain. Apparently the wife got on the correct mix of drugs now but it was hell for the whole family. He met someone else but the ex wife is still bitter.

Another woman just had enough of the abuse. She had been married for 30 years and it was just a natural thing to leave as they hadn't touched each other in a decade. 

Some people who attended the group were the wayward spouse. I don't have definitive proof, but me saying things like, "It is not your fault your husband cheated. Bad relationships don't cause affairs, a lack of character does." really drew ire in their faces! LOL. 

But I think of this. If a spouse wants to leave, but has the integrity and maturity to do it via non exit affair divorce, you would think that maybe there would be no divorce in the first place because that spouse would try and work it out. Unless the other spouse is a complete abusive ass.

Don't forget, not all BS's find out that their spouse cheated...


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## Nomorebeans

I like that: Bad relationships don't cause affairs, a lack of character does.

I will definitely use that in the near future.


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## Dude007

Ok I'll play, what about the affair where the cheating spouse DOES NOT want to leave the marriage and puts everything into recovery but betrayed spouse says, MY TURN, "I've just dreamed of affairs so sit back and watch me roll." Not an exit affair but a cAse where wayward gets caught up in the moment and betrayed capitalizes on the affair and has numerous affaires of their own right away to the point original wayward begs betrayed to stop the cheating. Who is the traitor? Original wayward? Both? None cuz they are both losers?


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## Dyokemm

Dude,

That is actually a good and insightful question.

And very morally difficult as well.

Personally, and I know many disagree, I have no problem with a RA....I do not morally object to revenge or retaliation.

Ideally, I would say an RA should happen immediately in the aftermath, not be hidden from the WS (now BS too) but instead have it directly revealed to them, along with a message along the lines of 'How do you like it? Two can play this game, so either we end these escapades and heal the M or get a D now'.

The situation you describe, where a former BS keeps having MULTIPLE A's, while always blaming the initial WS for breaking the M....well IMO that goes beyond retaliation/revenge, and I would say that both partners are traitors, and the M should probably be brought to an end as unsalvageable.

However, a RA really only makes any sense in a situation where the BS did ultimately want to R...but not without giving the WS a taste of their own medicine and an object lesson on why they should not continue to cheat, because it can be flipped on them.

I would never face this dilemma....because I would immediately end the relationship with a cheater....as I did with my cheating LTgf.

There was no point to an RA because she was immediately and permanently gone.

And to address your first point of the initial WS who did not want to end their M, and immediately threw themselves back into repairing the M...well if they didn't want their M to end, they should have kept their pants on....if they get instantly kicked to the curb or revenge cheated on?...well should have thought about that before they betrayed their partner.

But I would add, again based on your theorized situation, that if their BS went beyond just a single RA into continuous betrayals of their own?....then I would advise a WS/BS in that situation to walk from the M....it would be unfixable.

There is a poster in JFO right now who has a similar situation....he cheated in the first year of M....they stayed together, but 7 years later she cheated.

Despite the long delay, I am willing to concede this as an RA....eventually her anger and hurt pushed her to pay him back.

They R'd again.....and 7 years after her 1st A, she has another A....and throws his initial A back in his face as justification.

My advise to the guy was to file for D....while her first A might be counted as an RA, which I can understand and actually have no problem with, her 2nd A was something he should not tolerate.

Advised him to file for D, as she was likely never going to stop.

But ultimately, he is the one whose actions broke and doomed the M....his betrayal is not somehow 'made up' for by the fact she was now a traitor too.


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## sapientia

Dyokemm said:


> "It's trivial to judge."
> 
> I cannot disagree more....without judgement, we lose the power of discernment or analysis....we lose the ability to identify injurious and damaging actions from those that are either neutral (impacting only the actor) or beneficial....and only the most self-centered and narcissistic of views would retort that other people are of no concern to me or the expenditure of my energies.
> 
> Without judgement, everything becomes equally valid or possible, depending only on the motivations or desires of the acting party, and disregarding any consequences or impact those actions have on others.
> 
> Dude007.....your very question to start this thread implies making a judgement....Why x instead of z?
> 
> It calls upon the responder to make a judgement about why x or z is a 'better' choice...and that will involve either approval or disapproval of people making those choices.
> 
> If judging is truly trivial, the question "why not have an exit A?" becomes as morally valid as "why not leave the M before cheating?"
> 
> Either choice is as acceptable as the other without judgement.
> 
> Of course, extend this concept of moral ambiguity to other human interactions beyond just infidelity, and the potential consequences for civilized society become truly frightening.


You clearly didn't read my post for understanding, you seem to be only reading what you wanted to read. I described choice and dispassionate decision making quite clearly. There is too much hyperbole and emotion in your posts for me to take you seriously. I wish you well in your journey. I hope you save some of your energy judging others on doing some good in life and that you find happiness.

Best,
Sapi


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## sapientia

Dude007 said:


> "It's trivial to judge. The problem is you waste your time judging when you could be creating, or doing things for yourself. When I rarely judge, it's only to understand. I don't think its what most people would call judging. I don't get emotional about it. From that understanding I make a choice. Sometimes, I choose to help that person move toward a better future. Sometimes I choose to let them discover the consequences of their choices for themselves. My response to you, for example, would fall into the former, but will rapidly become the latter. I think angry people are dangerous so I try to get them to understand this about themselves when I can. Either way, I don't allow myself to get angry or outraged about it. Why would I waste my energy on this instead of doing something that has value to my own goals and life?"
> 
> Wow beautifully said and I agree completely. Are you some famous philosopher. This is some deep **** your write. Dude


LOL, I thought that was a terrible bit of writing so thanks.

I'm not a philosopher. I'm quite happily married. :laugh:


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## Dyokemm

Sapi,

No hard feelings....the fact that we see this issue differently is not a cause for any negativity between us.

I do find it odd that you accuse me of hyperbole....I disagree.

I have simply read hundreds of books on various philosophies...and one of the things one takes out of studies of that sort is the importance of exactitude in the meaning of the language we use, and the logical conclusions that follow from it.

The post of mine that you quoted was a direct response to you using the term 'trivial' in classifying or labeling judgement.

All I did is what any philosopher would do....follow the logical results of accepting this equivalence of 'judgement' and 'trivial'.

I do know that you mentioned choice and dispassionate decision making in your statements, but you were also very clear that your energies are directed to a very personal methodology of analysis that is meant specifically to have meaning and impact only for yourself.

I may be misunderstanding your point here, but I took from your statements that you felt judging other people's actions is wrong because they may have personal (subjective) reasons that explain or excuse the choices they make.

I think this may be our major difference of view or opinion, and also why you think I am full of anger or emotion at others.

I favor the schools of philosophy that believe the role or purpose of inquiry and analysis is not to discover personal or subjective truths, which would only have meaning and importance for me....but rather the role is to struggle, often imperfectly in a complex world, but as much as possible to discover objective truth that would have meaning or value for all people.

Naturally, that process involves making judgments of the actions of humans, including our own. Making judgements, and assigning labels such as 'right' or 'wrong', and varying degrees of praise or severity, to those actions/choices is necessary to discern objective truth. 

You seem to think I am very angry or emotional about these things....I can see why you might assume that, but in fact I am not.

I am very blunt, direct, and non-compromising on those things I accept as objective fact, however....for example that betrayal is heinous and unforgivable....or rape...or murder.

It is not anger that drives my refusal to compromise on these things....is is complete and utter disdain and disgust at the acts these people have engaged in.

Some acts can receive forgiveness and redemption IMO, if the perpetrator shows contrition and makes restitution to their victims.

But I do not believe betrayal and other equally heinous acts (murder, rape, child molestation, etc) are these types of acts....I do think the label and judgement one receives from being the perpetrator of such a horrid act is something that is permanent and life long, at least for their victims.

For example, society may accept forgiveness and redemption for a rapist....I do not think the rape victim would ever HAVE to extend those things....the injury done to them is so heinous that judgement and lack of forgiveness forever are entirely acceptable and just. 

I doubt you will agree with or accept my views...and that's fine...we are all entitled to our own opinions.

But I hope I have clarified a little better why I hold the views I do...and have at least dispelled some of the feeling that you seem to have that I am just some angry and bitter person.

Take care Sapi.


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## ThreeStrikes

I put the folks who say "I don't like to judge" in the same category as the ones who say "I don't like drama".

:wink2:


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## sapientia

I don't agree with your views Dyokemm but I don't feel the need to write a very long post explaining why, as you did. My POV is quite simple and easily expressed, though not easily understood for many except through life experience. Your tone, choice of words, length of post and the need to write with CAPS says you are quite emotional about this issue, and emotional-based thinking tends to be quite entrenched. Perhaps I am wrong and you are simply trying to inject tone into a 2D medium. Still, I find absolute positions in argument (this is wrong, that is wrong) lead to binary and, usually wrong thinking and a loss of understanding about the complexities of the living world, which is most certainly not binary.

I hope that expressing yourself here has helped you. I wish you happiness on your journey.

Best,
Sapi


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## Dude007

Sap I agree


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## sapientia

Thanks Dude. There is a difference in judging for oneself re: decision making and judging others, which I generally find to be a waste of productive energy. People generally don't change behaviour except for self-interest. I used to get fired up and take offense at those who 'did differently', except they didn't have the capacity to care and it didn't to anything to increase my own personal happiness. Once I let go of those expectations, I became a much happier, productive and positive person and my life improved accordingly.

Those who do seem ready to try to change, I help when and where I can. Those who don't, I let them live with the consequences of their choices, without my judgement. Largely because I figure they probably have enough of their own issues to deal with, that I don't need to add to their concerns with my no-value added opinion.

“Who are you to judge the life I live?
I know I'm not perfect
-and I don't live to be-
but before you start pointing fingers...
make sure you hands are clean!” 
― Bob Marley


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## Dyokemm

Sapi,

No worries over disagreement....it's natural, and IMO necessary, for disagreement on ideas and concepts to be shared and discussed.

I also do not support binary thinking...but I'm not willing to give up the quest for truth and consensus on acceptable and unacceptable human behaviors...and that involves making judgments about the choices of people, based on their impacts on other human beings. 

If that amounts to binary thinking to your POV, there is nothing I can possibly do to explain my views on these issues.

So I will just conclude by saying that after much reading and thinking on the subject, I do not accept the view that the complexity of the world leads only to a state of moral relativism in which all actions and choices have equal validity, and the only relevant 'facts' to consider are the justifications put forward by individuals for their behavior.

Best wishes to you in the future too.


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## sapientia

Dyokemm - I'm unfortunately no longer interested in dialogue with you, please stop responding to my posts. Your behaviour in that other thread was disrespectful and not congruent with your post above.

I wish you well but I do not wish to engage with you any further.


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## ThreeStrikes

sapientia said:


> Dyokemm - I'm unfortunately no longer interested in dialogue with you, please stop responding to my posts. Your behaviour in that other thread was disrespectful and not congruent with your post above.
> 
> I wish you well but I do not wish to engage with you any further.


Ouch. Dyokemm, your behavior was judged! Oh, the humanity! :wink2:

Ignore what people say. Watch what they do.

Sorry for the threadjack, Dude...


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## sapientia

ThreeStrikes said:


> Ouch. Dyokemm, your behavior was judged! Oh, the humanity! :wink2:
> 
> Ignore what people say. Watch what they do.
> 
> Sorry for the threadjack, Dude...


"A healthy choice to enforce boundaries by walking away from a dysfunctional relationship..."

Oh, I see. That post was Moxy's. This now makes sense.

Why are you stirring the pot, ThreeStrikes? You weren't even involved in the exchange. Are you a bully? Or just bored? Do you not feel I have the right to disengage from an unproductive argument? Why would you try to continue the unpleasantness? Aren't you the one who made a post about drama?


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## Dude007

Can't we all just get along?

- Rodney king


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## sapientia

Nice choice of quote.


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## Dude007

Yeah instead of racial strife we have waywards and betrayeds. It is all about the experience anyway so all is well. Dude


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## sapientia

I agree. My ex and I both appreciate our respective spouses much more having gone through the experience of our own divorce. I think our only regret is we didn't divorce sooner once we realized we were done, but to your point, the lessons learned might not have been as deep. Plus we had our son's well-being to consider. We are all happy now, so its all good. 

What are you going to do, Dude? You are still struggling with this issue?


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## Dude007

Yeah I really think I should roll out now but tempted to stay until my daughter can drive which is another year. MC not going so well.


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## sapientia

I read some of the comments on your other thread re: staying. It's easy for people to say "stay in a sexless, joyless marriage" but much harder to do it. My ex and I also tried to stay in a civil marriage but finally decided to end it. Death by 1000 small cuts is still death. Five years of no love and companionship is a long time to be unhappy. I do believe that if we had tried to tough it out, one of us would have had an affair eventually, which would have made our inevitable divorce much more unpleasant than it was. Don't misunderstand me, our divorce was incredibly painful for us both, but we didn't add insult to injury with an affair.

Continue with the MC. It helped my ex and I realize how much we grew up and apart, allowing us to divorce amicably and be excellent co-parents. Or you may find out you love each other more than you realize. Funny thing, lots can happen given time.

Try to be very open with each other about your wants and fears. Help each other, even it it means helping each other to leave. You will be teaching your children a powerful lesson about life.


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## autopilot

happy as a clam said:


> Agree.
> 
> Then there's always people like me who told their spouse they were leaving a year ahead of time, the marriage was over, they filed for divorce... BUT their spouse was in denial and trying to stall and prevent the divorce (despite 10 years of misery), racked up TENS upon TENS of THOUSANDS of dollars in legal fees; and THEN the person who wants out meets a new partner. Soooo... that exiting partner says "to h*ll with it, I am moving on with my new partner. Not wasting any more of my life in this circus."
> 
> It has nothing to do with "not admitting it to themselves until they are having sex with someone else." And certainly no re-writing of history. It has much more to do with a passive-aggressive partner who refuses to lose at all costs. Including the damage to his children.


Yours sounds eerily similar to mine. Except I not only had to foot all her legal fees but also take on all the debt she racked up until the divorce was final. From separation to final divorce was 2 LONG years. In the end, I was willing to give her whatever she wanted to just sign the paperwork and be done with it. The emotional damage inflicted on our two children took a number of years to overcome with alot of patience and enforced boundaries.

I married the AP and we've had an incredibly wonderful marriage. It did have its issues early on (way too many to discuss here, only to say that I did just about everything wrong), but we heeded sound advice and stayed committed to each other.


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## sapientia

I think the issue for some is the causality. Deciding your marriage is over, moving out and being separated while the divorce is in process and then meeting someone is quite different from meeting someone and then deciding your marriage is over.


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## Dude007

"I think the issue for some is the causality. Deciding your marriage is over, moving out and being separated while the divorce is in process and then meeting someone is quite different from meeting someone and then deciding your marriage is over."

Uh yeah that's not an AP or my current wife is an AP. Ha! Ok we had another needless tiff so I just took off and staying the night at our second home(cabin in the country)Maybe some time out here then and again while doing the MC will be a catalyst to really make the break? The problem is its in the boonies so I'm lonely but at least at peace for the night. Friends coming out here next weekend so be another good distraction


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## sapientia

How do your children deal with your leaving? It must be hard on them? Can they contact you?


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## autopilot

sapientia said:


> I think the issue for some is the causality. Deciding your marriage is over, moving out and being separated while the divorce is in process and then meeting someone is quite different from meeting someone and then deciding your marriage is over.


I guess that it's semantics. I started the relationship with my wife after separating and beginning the divorce proceedings. In my mind, until the divorce was final I still considered it an affair. I beat myself up unmercifully because of it after the divorce was finalized and became an emotional wreck until family and friends intervened.

Life is too short to live in a love-less and sex-less marriage. Not only is it bad for the marital partners, but it can have just as damaging effect on the children who can many times see and feel the effects of the dysfunctional marriage.

If your marriage is salvageable, continue working to repair it. If not, do both of yourselves a favor and move to end it sooner than later.


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## sapientia

Well, I happen to agree with you about life so not going to argue with you on that point. I also met my H when my ex and I were separated. I had moved out, had a separation agreement and filed for divorce and been on my own for months before we met and started dating. In Canada, you must be separated for at least 1 year before you can file for D. Our divorce took almost 2 years from start to finish.

What I meant by causality is that you, like me, had already made the decision and taken firm action to end your marriage before you began seeing another person. I assume you had decided not to R.

Affairs to me are when you invest emotional and physical energy in someone other than your spouse before you make the decision to end your marriage, inform your spouse and take action (filing for D). Particularly if the affair causes you to want to end your marriage to be with this other person. Its not a clean way to end a marriage for anyone involved.

Not everyone here will agree with me on these points.


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## Nomorebeans

I agree with you 100%, sapientia.

My ex tried to get away with pretending he was doing the very thing you and autopilot did. He said he wanted to separate last October, gave me the ILYBINILWY speech, wanted space and to be free to meet and be with someone who could make him happy. Said there was no one else. Little did I know, he had already met the OW in September and started an affair with her then and there. Had I never found out, he admitted later he would have tried to pass it off as meeting her for the first time after we separated and started proceedings.

What you and autopilot did, in my book, is not cheating. Had my ex truly done that, I wouldn't have been happy about it. But I wouldn't have considered it cheating.


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## Dude007

Yeah my cabin on our farm is five miles from our house. We all went to church this morning. Wife and I are not getting a long so I just went quiet. I'll talk to her later tonight. I may go back to our land this afternoon. We have dish there so can always watch golf!


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## autopilot

Dude,

Let me caution you as you go forward with separation. Be sure that both of you know the ground-rules of the separation and are on the same page with it. If one of you has divorce on the mind and the other is thinking that separation is only temporarily for space to figure out the problems, then you will not have an easy time of it.

That was the problem with my ex. I told her I wanted a divorce and was moving out, filed and had a miserable two years as she fought the divorce. She still held out hope that we could reconcile. In hindsight, I really think that she only wanted to stay together until divorce was on her terms and not mine.

She made my life miserable post-divorce for a few years as she tried to torpedo my new marriage with deceit, deception, lies and manipulation of the children. I could fill a book with what she did.

So, whatever you do, be sure that you both do it on the same terms as best as possible. Anything else will just make for a difficult situation.


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## sapientia

Nomorebeans said:


> I agree with you 100%, sapientia.
> 
> My ex tried to get away with pretending he was doing the very thing you and autopilot did. He said he wanted to separate last October, gave me the ILYBINILWY speech, wanted space and to be free to meet and be with someone who could make him happy. Said there was no one else. .


Hi Nomorebeans - One of the things about my ex that I don't think of much but this thread reminded me of, is that he was seeing someone in the early fall right after I moved out in late summer. Very cagey about it. I actually noticed a change in him early that summer when he refused to go to counselling. It's quite possible he met his GF then.

I'll never know the truth whether that was the reason he became really nasty at the end. Sometimes, I think he didn't want to be the one to end it, so he escalated his behaviour so that I was one who left. Spouses who stay as doormats only prolong the pain of these situations (even I did, though my way was to hope for R after our split--my R thread covers this). I think this technique is more common than is discussed. It doesn't matter now. I choose to remember the good things about our early marriage and focus on co-parenting our son. I'm happily remarried and he is not. My career and financial situation improved 10x by divorcing him and I think this surprised him, so there were some snarky comments early on but we've all adapted.

My experience taught me two major lessons: 
People really don't change. You have to love and live with people as they are. If you can't do this, then you need to let them go.
Happiness is a matter of personal choice. Know yourself and what you need, then go out and make the choices to get it. Noone else can do this for you.


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## Dude007

Dude007 said:


> Yeah my cabin on our farm is five miles from our house. We all went to church this morning. Wife and I are not getting a long so I just went quiet. I'll talk to her later tonight. I may go back to our land this afternoon. We have dish there so can always watch golf!


We both went to the cabin and talked yesterday for three hours. We agreed if she can't love me like a wife should, she will be honest and let me know so I can leave. I think there is a lot of baggage from early on in our marriage that prevents her from loving me the way a spouse should. She is gonna try and overcome all of it. She started working thru "the list" yesterday! ha! DUDE


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