# check out this dialogue....



## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

I noticed on another thread on this forum - 

"I'm tall, decent looking and personality, rarely drink, well travelled, culturally aware etc. and I believe I genuinely feel I have things to offer a good woman."

RESPONSE - This part here doesn't really matter.

"However the problem is at my age I feel quite lost and uncertain about my future. I haven't really had a career and finding work at the moment is not easy due to the lack of jobs in my field. becoming the man I could have been by now."

RESPONSE - Yes, most women will not date you because of this problem. A man that can't provide for himself is like a woman who is unattractive. 

"Maybe there are women out there who just want to be treated well and are looking for a trust worthy and kind man and aren't too bothered about his income or potential to provide."

RESPONSE - Yes there are. They are usually in there 50s or higher and are very lonely. Find yourself a cougar, they prefer younger men and they don't care so much about his financial situation. 
However if you want a woman around your age or younger to take care of you, it's not going to happen.


What do you think about this? She is affirming that women clearly need security and for the man to be the provider regardless of any other positive attributes, even though society will tell us otherwise.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Every grown @ss adult needs to have a job to support themselves. It's not a thing against men. If you can provide for yourself you aren't going to be an attractive mate.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Every grown @ss adult needs to have a job to support themselves. It's not a thing against men. If you can provide for yourself you aren't going to be an attractive mate.


I have grown tired of worried's multiplying threads. It's clear he gets something from wallowing in the abyss and has no real desire to pull himself out. 

Nothing will be resolved. He will not listen or learn. Wasting keystrokes is as useful as wasting breath.


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## ThaMatrix (Sep 3, 2017)

It's important for a man to be self sufficient. Even if a woman doesn't need a man to take care of her financially he will likely appear unattractive if he cannot at least provide for himself. At our age it's important to be the best you can be on the job front because now is the time when we are ideally getting our feet on the ground and starting families. I too am in a very competitive job market where opportunities aren't as abundant as they were two years ago. That is always at the forefront of my thinking while I'm at work and why I do my best to never make a single mistake.


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## ThaMatrix (Sep 3, 2017)

Also I shave my head daily which I thinks helps me to project an image of power, adaptability, confidence and a willingness to go against social norms and think outside the box as a man of action often does, and to enhance the piercing gaze of my ice blue eyes.


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

ThaMatrix said:


> It's important for a man to be self sufficient. Even if a woman doesn't need a man to take care of her financially he will likely appear unattractive if he cannot at least provide for himself. At our age it's important to be the best you can be on the job front because now is the time when we are ideally getting our feet on the ground and starting families. I too am in a very competitive job market where opportunities aren't as abundant as they were two years ago. That is always at the forefront of my thinking while I'm at work and why I do my best to never make a single mistake.


I understand that but it seemed to that woman that none of the good traits or factors that a man could have meant anything UNLESS he had a career and had something going for him? All those other good things are garbage. 
It is like saying essentially, that a fat chick who is kind, caring, loving, sweet, feminine, great cook etc. would never be a potential mate simply because she is fat despite having all those other great qualities about her. 
I guess this does actually happen though right?


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Every grown @ss adult needs to have a job to support themselves. It's not a thing against men. If you can provide for yourself you aren't going to be an attractive mate.


That's not what's being said though and nowhere in that text is unemployed mentioned. She's saying that it doesn't matter how great a man could be in his personality or how good he looks on the outside if he is struggling to sort his life out for one reason or another. Essentially that's all that matters. As I said it is like some fat chick who is kind, caring, loving, sweet, feminine, great cook etc. but would never be a potential mate simply because she is fat despite having all those other great qualities about her.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

worriedwithfear said:


> That's not what's being said though. She's saying that it doesn't matter how great a man could be in his personality or how good he looks on the outside if he is struggling to sort his life out for one reason or another. Essentially that's all that matters. As I said it is like some fat chick who is kind, caring, loving, sweet, feminine, great cook etc. but would never be a potential mate simply because she is fat despite having all those other great qualities about her.


It all matters. If you have a good job but aren't kind or caring then it's a deal breaker too. Doesn't mean kind and caring is more important than job. 

And women get turned down for being too fat all the time.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

worriedwithfear said:


> I understand that but it seemed to that woman that none of the good traits or factors that a man could have meant anything UNLESS he had a career and had something going for him? All those other good things are garbage.
> It is like saying essentially, that a fat chick who is kind, caring, loving, sweet, feminine, great cook etc. would never be a potential mate simply because she is fat despite having all those other great qualities about her.
> I guess this does actually happen though right?


Exaggeration and False analogy. 

Exaggeration:
Nobody ever implied those things are garbage without a job, only that they may not be enough, which is completely fair. It doesn't matter how pretty the body of your car is and how hot the engine is--if the transmission isn't functioning properly, the car isn't going anywhere. That doesn't mean the paint job is ugly, only that it can't make the car go on its own. 

False analogy:
It is unfair to compare the sweet but fat girl to the cool but unemployed guy. 
You can't eat good looks and a nice personality doesn't put a roof over your head. A chunky chick is still fully functional, An unemployed man--not so much.


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It all matters. If you have a good job but aren't kind or caring then it's a deal breaker too. Doesn't mean kind and caring is more important than job.
> 
> And women get turned down for being too fat all the time.


That's right I guess yeah. Hmmm just need to have everything in place. 
That's right women are turned down for being fat and what would you say is an equivalent for men?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

worriedwithfear said:


> I noticed on another thread on this forum -
> 
> "I'm tall, decent looking and personality, rarely drink, well travelled, culturally aware etc. and I believe I genuinely feel I have things to offer a good woman."
> 
> ...


I think most people are unwilling to provide for a freeloader ... male or female.


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## ThaMatrix (Sep 3, 2017)

Certainly not being bald.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

worriedwithfear said:


> That's right I guess yeah. Hmmm just need to have everything in place.
> That's right women are turned down for being fat and what would you say is an equivalent for men?


Being unattractive to someone or not the preferred body type as a reason for being turned down is both genders. Men and women are turned down because their looks don't match what someone wants.

Yes you need to have everything in place. You work on yourself until you have what you want and want to attract in someone else.


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> I think most people are unwilling to provide for a freeloader ... male or female.


Freeloading is not mentioned at all.


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Being unattractive to someone or not the preferred body type as a reason for being turned down is both genders. Men and women are turned down because their looks don't match what someone wants.
> 
> Yes you need to have everything in place. You work on yourself until you have what you want and want to attract in someone else.


I think the hardest thing is figuring out WHAT it is you want. Implementing it is the easy part once you have an idea and vision of how to go about it.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

worriedwithfear said:


> I think the hardest thing is figuring out WHAT it is you want. Implementing it is the easy part once you have an idea and vision of how to go about it.


Figure out a list of your must haves. Then figure out a list of your deal breakers. Write them down if it helps, I did. 

Don't just need anyone to be with. You're looking for quality and the best match for you. 

First off, figure out who you are. 

Do you like to go out a lot or are you an introvert? I'm an introvert so it was important to me that my partner be as well. 
Do you like animals? Is it important if they do/don't/have/don't have? 
Do you enjoy fine food and expensive places or do you like down home, comfort and cheap? I like cheap so someone into fancy places where I'm going to need to dress up isn't a match.

Think about where you want to be in 5 years. Nice home with animals and the quiet life? Bunch of kids? Traveling? Then look for someone who wants the same things as you. 

Dealbreakers- things that you'd leave or say no to someone over. Don't skimp on this list, it'll come back to bite you.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

worriedwithfear said:


> Freeloading is not mentioned at all.


There was mention of not finding employment.


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> There was mention of not finding employment.


No it didn't, it said finding work at the moment is not easy. This does not mean that this person has given up altogether but is trying.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

worriedwithfear said:


> No it didn't, it said finding work at the moment is not easy. This does not mean that this person has given up altogether but is trying.


And living off what in the meantime?


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

SMG? SMG? SMG? 



Sorry, I couldn't help the flash back...


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## worriedwithfear (Sep 3, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> And living off what in the meantime?


It's not stated in the dialogue so I have no idea, you'd have to ask him! I'm assuming either savings and/or welfare.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

There is somewhat of a double standard when it comes to all of this. I think that men and women show one another love in different ways. While we should be treated equally, we have biological differences that trigger a lot of this. Most women like ambitious men, doesn't mean they need to make a lot of money, but the drive and ambition is what's attractive. It's attractive to me, anyways. It's not about a dollar amount, there's just something incredibly sexy about my husband's desire and drive to be responsible for himself, and me.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> There is somewhat of a double standard when it comes to all of this. I think that men and women show one another love in different ways. While we should be treated equally, we have biological differences that trigger a lot of this. Most women like ambitious men, doesn't mean they need to make a lot of money, but the drive and ambition is what's attractive. It's attractive to me, anyways. It's not about a dollar amount, there's just something incredibly sexy about my husband's desire and drive to be responsible for himself, and me.


I don't think drive and ambition are a characteristic that "most" women are attracted to. I would put it more in the some category. For me, anyway, the consideration would be considerably more practical. Granted, I am older. When I was very young and dating my husband, we were pretty broke, and that was ok. Now I would wonder if every date was going to be shoestring or paid for by me. What does life look like if unemployment lingers on both from both a practical and self esteem stand point? Will I be propping someone up in these areas of life for a long term? I would and have done that with my beloved husband of 25 years. I don't think I would get into a new relationship under those circumstances though.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

worriedwithfear said:


> That's right I guess yeah. Hmmm just need to have everything in place.
> That's right women are turned down for being fat and what would you say is an equivalent for men?


Equivalent what, exactly?

Are women really "turned down" by being fat? Maybe by some. But just as many are embraced regardless of being plus sized, or specifically because they are. Just because you don't like A, B or C doesn't mean that nobody does 

And I'm fairly certain just as many men are turned down for being fat as women. If a guy is well-employed or rich, then perhaps he'll get a few more women to choose from in spite of what he looks like.

But hey - if a woman is well-employed or rich, then she will have more men to choose from, in spite of what she looks like.

All kinds of things make people more attractive to others, and it's never just about looks or weight. Money might be one, to some. Personality, confidence, sexiness, intelligence, core beliefs, you name it.

When it comes to being unemployed, or under-employed, that generally affects confidence (as clearly seen in this thread...). THAT'S the most likely reason for not finding a mate, not, in fact, simply BEING unemployed.

If a guy is bald, then he should rock it. If a woman is plus-sized, then she should rock it. If you walk around saying "nobody loves me because I'm bald, poor me" then yeah, you won't be getting much action. Replace "bald" with just about anything.


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## ThaMatrix (Sep 3, 2017)

Exactly. Life's not fair and it's never going to be. Just do your absolute best with what you've got. Play the cards your dealt.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

I don't care which gender you are, if you're looking to date over age 21 you'd better have a job that pays your bills each month or be independently wealthy. Anything less is unacceptable.


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

Women already 'default' to the role of cleaning the house, doing the laundry, cooking food, etc... etc... (although i am proficient in all these areas)

The last thing they want is a man they need to provide for (financially) and protect (physically)

That is NOT to say that men without these traits cant find a women and live a happy life.... Its just going to be hard to find a partner that wants to do all of that and still get wet between the legs


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

You could be hot as #### and be happy as a trophy wife / boy-toy. 

If you mean unacceptable to you, then that's fine, and its true for me too. But there are people who are happy to support a partner who meets their needs / desires / fantasies. 





MJJEAN said:


> I don't care which gender you are, if you're looking to date over age 21 you'd better have a job that pays your bills each month or be independently wealthy. Anything less is unacceptable.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

worriedwithfear said:


> Freeloading is not mentioned at all.


So tell us how much money do you earn and what kind of job do you have?


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

I'm tall, athletic, active, not over-weight by any measure, attractive, educated, financially successful, social personality, world travelled, sexual woman and have many things to offer a good man.

^^^ This part doesn't really matter.

However the problem is my age. Full stop. I am 61 years old.

Most available men near my age range will not date me because they are chasing much younger women. 

What do you think about this? What I think is that I am going to continue enjoying my life and not worry about that which I cannot change.


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

A man without work is lost. And if he's not feeling lost something is wrong. Women are attracted to men who have something to offer. A fully integrated and healthy man provides for his family.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

worriedwithfear said:


> "Maybe there are women out there who just want to be treated well and are looking for a trust worthy and kind man and aren't too bothered about his income or potential to provide."
> 
> RESPONSE - Yes there are. They are usually in there 50s or higher and are very lonely. Find yourself a cougar, they prefer younger men and they don't care so much about his financial situation.
> However if you want a woman around your age or younger to take care of you, it's not going to happen.


Can't say I agree with this. I wouldn't describe the "cougars" I know as lonely. Mostly they have been married, are now divorced and don't want anything serious. What they want from a partner depends entirely on the situation. They hook up with younger guys if they're attracted to them, but they don't necessarily see them as keepers. They of course have standards, and have boxes to check off just like everyone else.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

ReformedHubby said:


> Can't say I agree with this. I wouldn't describe the "cougars" I know as lonely. Mostly they have been married, are now divorced and don't want anything serious. What they want from a partner depends entirely on the situation. They hook up with younger guys if they're attracted to them, but they don't necessarily see them as keepers. They of course have standards, and have boxes to check off just like everyone else.


^ Agree with this.

The few "cougars" I know/have known are no more lonely than any other single person of any age.

The biggest difference between a ~50 year old single woman and a ~25 year old single woman is that the older one knows what they like, and generally has the confidence to get it.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I already chimed in on the OP, but seeing as this thread has been resurrected a bit...

As a man, I would not exactly be hot-to-trot for an unemployed woman, either. In between jobs, and searching - sure, why not? I can't imagine that's any different regardless of gender.

But as I said earlier in this thread, with unemployment typically comes a lack of confidence. It just does. I spent about 6 months in my late 20's unemployed and searching. I quit a perfectly good career (yes, career - not job) to follow my ex wife on a lark, only to find ourselves right back where we both were within 3 months because she waffled. She got her job back. I had to find work. Biggest regret of my life.

And if I were single, I would not have been attractive to ANYBODY. Wouldn't have mattered a lick what I look like, what shape I was in - nothing.


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## Spring123 (Dec 13, 2017)

worriedwithfear said:


> I understand that but it seemed to that woman that none of the good traits or factors that a man could have meant anything UNLESS he had a career and had something going for him? All those other good things are garbage.
> It is like saying essentially, that a fat chick who is kind, caring, loving, sweet, feminine, great cook etc. would never be a potential mate simply because she is fat despite having all those other great qualities about her.
> I guess this does actually happen though right?


In western culture two things are still expected. Men need to make money women need to be pretty. That's why women fear about losing their beauty and men are terrified if their job isn't going well. To deny this is silly.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

uhtred said:


> You could be hot as #### and be happy as a trophy wife / boy-toy.
> 
> If you mean unacceptable to you, then that's fine, and its true for me too. But there are people who are happy to support a partner who meets their needs / desires / fantasies.


I suppose there are a certain small percentage of women who'd date a man that doesn't have a job, but I've never seen it happen. I've seen women do the ONS/FWB thing with unemployed men who were charming and sexy, but never date with any kind of seriousness.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

The Lover vs. Provider. Story as old as time. 

The Provider doesn't really push the "OMG I really want to sleep with this guy" buttons, but he does a great job of pushing the "he will make a really great father and husband one day" buttons. He marries. He fathers children. Everything is great. Then he loses his job or gets sick... and the "love of his life" goes away and takes half his money. (Before some of you start hammering away at your keyboards in red-faced anger, no... this obviously doesn't apply to all circumstances. Let's just say I've heard the scenario more than 100 times. It's common.)

The Lover can live in his parents' basement, sleeping on a dirty mattress, working part-time as a bartender, have no car, etc... but there's just SOMETHING about him that drives the 12 women he regularly sees crazy. He gets a lot of sex. He doesn't have to pay for it. He doesn't have mouths to feed and a nagging wife. He also doesn't get all the positives that come with having and supporting a family. 

I've heard many times from men that are bewildered by their wife's ability to have an affair with such a "loser". The guy is not a Provider, and that's precisely why she is so attracted to him.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> I suppose there are a certain small percentage of women who'd date a man that doesn't have a job, but I've never seen it happen. I've seen women do the ONS/FWB thing with unemployed men who were charming and sexy, but never date with any kind of seriousness.


Oh, they're out there. But it's fairly likely that a woman who gets into a relationship with an unemployed guy with nothing going for him, has some issues of her own. My SO has a brother in his early 40s. The guy's never had a steady job for more than a year at a stretch and has been living with a relative, who supports him entirely, for nearly 4 years now - "borrowing" money from other family members here and there as well. A year or so ago, his girlfriend moved several states to live with him. She's never had a permanent stable job either, and she's never known her boyfriend to have one in all the time they've been together. She's from a background of generational poverty, not working poor, but rather generational reliance on government assistance. I'm pretty sure she was an adult before she ever even knew anyone who worked for a living. So, I think it just doesn't really occur to her that not having a job or being self-supporting should represent any sort of unusual or problematic situation. Living in the spare room of your boyfriend's sister's home, while neither of you work or even do anything to contribute to the household, with no car, no means, and constantly asking for handouts from his relatives, just doesn't strike her as odd or in any way undesirable. That's just what she seems to think life is like if you're not "rich" like the hard working, blue-collar, family whose spare room she's occupying - with all apparent intentions to remain for the foreseeable future - with the love of her life. 

I think whether a woman expects her prospective dates to have a job or not is probably related to what she grew up seeing as normal. If you grew up seeing a man provide, that's likely what you expect. If you grew up seeing both parents work, that's likely what you expect. But, if you grew up seeing no one working, then that's less likely to seem problematic in a prospective mate.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

You can not be kind yet be broke, it is not fair to leech off other people's hard work.

This man is complaining that women aren't looking to his "inner" qualities... when in fact, they are.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

dadstartingover said:


> The Lover vs. Provider. Story as old as time.
> 
> The Provider doesn't really push the "OMG I really want to sleep with this guy" buttons, but he does a great job of pushing the "he will make a really great father and husband one day" buttons. He marries. He fathers children. Everything is great. Then he loses his job or gets sick... and the "love of his life" goes away and takes half his money. (Before some of you start hammering away at your keyboards in red-faced anger, no... this obviously doesn't apply to all circumstances. Let's just say I've heard the scenario more than 100 times. It's common.)
> 
> ...


I don't understand this, either. If you haven't found a mate that turns you on AND meets your standards, then keep looking. Yeesh. There's a lid for every pot, but sometimes you have to search through the cupboards a while before you find it, ya know?



Rowan said:


> Oh, they're out there. But it's fairly likely that a woman who gets into a relationship with an unemployed guy with nothing going for him, has some issues of her own. My SO has a brother in his early 40s. The guy's never had a steady job for more than a year at a stretch and has been living with a relative, who supports him entirely, for nearly 4 years now - "borrowing" money from other family members here and there as well. A year or so ago, his girlfriend moved several states to live with him. She's never had a permanent stable job either, and she's never known her boyfriend to have one in all the time they've been together. She's from a background of generational poverty, not working poor, but rather generational reliance on government assistance. I'm pretty sure she was an adult before she ever even knew anyone who worked for a living. So, I think it just doesn't really occur to her that not having a job or being self-supporting should represent any sort of unusual or problematic situation. Living in the spare room of your boyfriend's sister's home, while neither of you work or even do anything to contribute to the household, with no car, no means, and constantly asking for handouts from his relatives, just doesn't strike her as odd or in any way undesirable. That's just what she seems to think like is like if you're not "rich" like the hard working, blue-collar, family whose spare room she's occupying - with all apparent intentions to remain for the foreseeable future - with the love of her life.
> 
> I think whether a woman expects her prospective dates to have a job or not is probably related to what she grew up seeing as normal. If you grew up seeing a man provide, that's likely what you expect. If you grew up seeing both parents work, that's likely what you expect. But, if you grew up seeing no one working, then that's less likely to seem problematic in a prospective mate.


I grew up in poor neighborhoods and most of the girls I knew grew up with having a job that covers the monthly bills a minimum requirement for dating precisely because of how they grew up. Hood logic. If he makes just enough and she makes just enough, between them they can just barely provide the basics for a family. But, yeah, there were a few that were totally ok with a loser because being on welfare with a loser SO was better than being on welfare alone. Opposite type hood logic.



RandomDude said:


> You can not be kind yet be broke, it is not fair to leech off other people's hard work.
> 
> This man is complaining that women aren't looking to his "inner" qualities... when in fact, they are.


This is more true than people realize.


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## Yag-Kosha (Sep 8, 2016)

alexm said:


> Are women really "turned down" by being fat? Maybe by some. But just as many are embraced regardless of being plus sized, or specifically because they are.ying "nobody loves me because I'm bald, poor me" then yeah, you won't be getting much action. Replace "bald" with just about anything.







Anyone ever watch those shows with those super large women? They always seem to have a man.

It's kinda weird. I've always pegged it as being sort of a fetish for the men involved in the relationship creating a really unhealthy dynamic between the couple.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Spring123 said:


> In western culture two things are still expected. Men need to make money women need to be pretty. That's why women fear about losing their beauty and men are terrified if their job isn't going well. *To deny this is silly*.


To accept it is sillier still. Giving such power to "expectation" instead of self examination and direction is utterly foolhardy IMO.


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